# Still hands / Contact



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I'm having a problem wrapping my head around being able to have hands that don't move while maintaining a constant contact with a horse's mouth. I feel like, when the horse is walking, if my hands don't move then I am creating very inconsistent, and possibly even uncomfortable contact with him, because his head moves when he walks, so the reins alternately tighten and loosen. I feel like I'm trying to solve this by having loose fingers, which just lets the reins pull through and then when I need the contact of course it's not there. I know this isn't the right thing to do, but I do it anyway because I'm not sure WHAT to do!

I also feel like sometimes I tug at the reins when I'm posting. Can anyone give me some tips on how to maintain good, consistent contact? Particularly while having "still" hands?


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

When people say your hands should be still, they mean in relation to the horse's mouth. So when the horse's head bobs, your elbows and shoulders need to relax and move too.

A better term is "elastic" contact. You have a steadiness in your reins, but in a springy sense that follows the motion.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

So "still hands" is kind of like a "quiet seat". It's an illusion  

Your hands should actually move with the horse, following the movements of his head, but it should be subtle. It's like trying to do a sitting trot. You want someone looking on to think you're very still on the horse's back, but in reality, your body is moving with the rythm of the horse at all times. If you try to sit as still as a board on a trotting horse, you will be bouncing like crazy. The only way not to bounce is to move with the horse. 

There needs to be a fair bit of elasticity in your hands, wrists, and mostly elbows for this to happen. Not that I've mastered it or anything, but this is how I understand it.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

At the walk, take up contact and relax your arms, but have slight pull. Just enough that the slack is taken out of the reins and you can feel the movement of their mouth and head. Then let them pull your elbows forward as they walk. Keep the walk forward up in a march, otherwise there isn't enough movement of the head to clearly demonstrate. Eventually you learn what that degree of pressure is needed to not pull, but still keep taut reins.

Being winter, there probably isn't a lot of grass, but I've found hand grazing to the surprisingly good at demonstrating this feeling. When hand grazing, you want to let the horse move around and eat as they want, but you also want the lead rope to be taught to avoid having them step on it or in case the decide to walk away. You're usually pretty relaxed while hand grazing, one hand holding the rope as you day dream or whatever. Every time they move their head, your arm moves to accommodate, but without losing the contact on the lead rope.

At the trot, put your hand in the neck. The head doesn't move at the trot and keeping the hand in the neck forces your hands to be still. It also trains your elbows to move with the trot and rise, while keeping the hands in one place.

The canter is similar to the walk.

Still hands is very much misleading, as it's still in relation to the horse, as has been said. It's a dynamic feeling.

Think more about the elbows than the hand. Imagine the reins connect to the elbow instead of the hand.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

As the others have said, quiet hands does not mean motionless. but, the hand should stay in about the same position, in the air, above an imaginary point on the withers. Since the rest of your body needs to move, it's really allowing your BODY to move, while your hands stay fixed in one spot. It FEELS like your hands are going forward and back. And, a person can get all twisted up mentally on this, but sometimes it helps one to think of your body coming TO your hands, then back away, then toward, etc, etc.


Have you ever seen how an old locomotive train moved, with a bar moving back and forth to make the wheels roll? It's almost like your body is the wheel; moving back and forth as per how the horse's hip pushes you forward with each walking stride. You can ride for a bit, and focus on your body for a bit, not on your hands, and visualize it going toward your hands, and back.


This is kind of a fun visualization exersize, however, for your hands to be still, they do have to enough contact with the horse's mouth that you can feel where his mouth is. Once you feel that, you try to make it so that your sense of tightness there never changes. you never pull harder, nor do you let the rein looser.


Your lower arm will move like that bar in the locomotive . And it will swing from your shoulder and elbow, both.


It isn't to achieve this quiet hands, and once you do get it, you then have to up the gait to a trot, and re-achieve that feel, all over again, then canter.
and THEN you have to start not just following, but you start using that feel to sometimes increase the resistance, and sometimes give more, to influence the horse. but first, FIND his mouth, and FOLLOW his mouth. that is your mission!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Still hands means quiet hands. The feel is elastic, the hands are not motionless. 

Still or quiet hands means the rider is not jerking on the mouth, the hands are moving in unison with the horse unless a rein aid is being used. The degree of pressure remains the same. 

The hands of the rider must move independently for effective rein aids. 


A person can have still hands yet be heavy handed. 


The goal is light contact, with quiet hands.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

The only really still hands are on western pleasure show riders, WHEN the judge is looking. If you are riding with contact, the best thing to practice is to let your entire arm follow the horses movement, from the shoulder, with movement of the elbow, but the reins held in your hands with all of your fingers closed softly, so that the reins don’t slide.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Agree with those who say the hands are not motionless, but quiet. 

It is not possible to keep the contact with the horse's mouth the same regardless of what the horse is doing, so in order to always have the appearance of stillness or contact with the mouth, it is required that more pressure is applied than is needed for the lightest contact. If a rider is not worried about the appearance of the reins, it is possible to ride with a lighter contact, because then some slack will occur at times when for example the horse shortens suddenly or makes a turn. 

People are not very accurate at telling how much pressure they have in the reins any more than they are accurate at telling how much hay they are feeding without weighing it. "Feel" can vary depending on if you're feeling strong or tired. This is true even for professional riders. 
In this study even professionals had more pressure on one rein than the other. 
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1558787815000787

Your hands not staying in one position, but rather are moving and only appear to be still because they are staying still relative to the horse. 
Something else is that if you watch even the highest level riders, you will notice that they do not keep their hands on the same part of the reins. It is important to move your hands up and down the reins fairly constantly as the horse shortens, lengthens or bends, even if this change is only an inch or so. I think many beginning riders try to put their hands at a fixed part of the rein and keep it there, which will not allow you to keep a consistent contact.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

As @SueC will confirm, it's a question of "'still' within which frame of reference"? You can sit 'still' in an airplane while moving along at 800mph relative to the ground. Others have already explained how that transfers to the horse, I just wanted to add this to be nerdy.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Think more about consistency of contact - you can move your hands around and lengthen and shorten your reins but still retain the same contact with the horse's mouth.
That 'feel' of the horse's mouth (or head if someone rides bitless) is something that only comes with experience


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As has been said, think of you upper arm as being a pice of strong elastic. You can get the feel of this if you have hold of the reins and someone takes the other end and pulls and gives, your hands shouldn't move but your 'elastic ' should. This means your hands will move in a forward and backward movement but will not move on the reins. 

The only part of the rein that needs to be gripped is between your forefinger and thumb. Your other fingers should be relaxed and supple to give the aids. Wrist should also bend supple like a piano player.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

@blue eyed pony had a really good explanation/illustration of this a few years ago. It came down to allowing the rein to move your hand in relationship to the mouth. Feeling, but quiet. It's an illustration I love, and on the rare occasion I give lessons I use. 

For walk, the hands follow the mouth. For canter the hands follow the mouth. For trot- the hands follow the mouth ( but the mouth should not be moving unless the horse is lame) just make sure you have an equivalent weight in each hand in every part of the stride. 

For catching the horse in the mouth at trot- do you ski? If you do you know what it's like to plant your ski poles and move through them. Your hands become fixed to the ground and your body accelerates. If you don't ski- go find to sticks and give it your best imitation in the yard. Plant your sticks. Move your body up. It's the same motion when you post through your hands in riding.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

The phrase I was given was "following hand" which makes more sense than "still". If you don't move your hands/arms (follow) you will bump the horse's mouth with every stride because your hand is in a "fixed" or still position. I am wondering if people who don't really understand "contact" think one's hands are still or fixed.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

lostastirrup said:


> For catching the horse in the mouth at trot- do you ski? *If you do you know what it's like to plant your ski poles and move through them. *Your hands become fixed to the ground and your body accelerates. If you don't ski- go find to sticks and give it your best imitation in the yard. Plant your sticks. Move your body up. It's the same motion when you post through your hands in riding.





Skiing is very much like riding. I'm glad that someone else finds them both related . It is that motion of holding your hands, (which hold the poles) out in front of you, pointed downhill, and YOU moving your body to react to the hill. Your knees bend , your hips bend, you go right, left, up down, but you bring your head stays relatively level , while your knees bend and straighten to adapt to the changing terrain. 



YOUR body moves to, through and away from your hands. YOUR body is really what is absorbing the motion, in relatiion to your hands.


this concept can help people who are too focussed on TRYING to move or not move their hands.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

mmshiro said:


> As @SueC will confirm, it's a question of "'still' within which frame of reference"? You can sit 'still' in an airplane while moving along at 800mph relative to the ground. Others have already explained how that transfers to the horse, I just wanted to add this to be nerdy.


Nerd award for @mmshiro! ;-)










And a neat badge:










...I wondered why my ears were burning. :Angel:

Anyone want to work out our _real_ velocity on that horse? From several frames of reference - not just the standard, boring _relative to the Earth's surface_? Say, also taking account of the Earth's rotation (you go _much_ faster travelling due east!)? And then, let's add that the earth is orbiting around the sun at rather a pace? We could then superimpose the relative movement of our home solar system as part of our moving galaxy... and whether that's slower or faster than the average expansion of the known universe...










PS: Now you know why Hero is rearing up, @gottatrot! :blueunicorn: He's got a library card and is sneaking off to read astrophysics when you're not looking, and as an excitable TB, this is really tickling him!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

1:04 - 1:11






You have to learn not to "follow" the horse's movement, but to anticipate and move at the same time he is moving. Try doing it in two-point first. That takes the motion of your seat out of the equation. Stand in the stirrups, learn to balance without hands, and THEN learn to anticipate the motion. Without anticipation, you are reacting - and that is always a little too late.

If anyone wants to see how difficult it is, get a long shank curb bit and adjust the free play in it - to where the curb strap tightens - to 60 degrees of rotation. Then film yourself riding, and TRY to keep the reins so the shanks are rotated at a steady 30 degrees. Watch in slow motion. It isn't easy.

For a guy who was focused on other things, John Wayne did a pretty good job here - at least until he turned to shoot:


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

bsms said:


> 1:04 - 1:11
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GlZJ4wVLdA
> 
> ...



This is strange. I don't usually disagree with you, but today i do. Steady hands in the contact are better off than a "following hand" vs. an "anticipatory hand". A hand that is trying to "guess" is going to do more wrong than right, it will pull more, it will be slack more and it won't have a nice even feel. If you think of the anticipatory hand like a line of cars at a stop light, and how the light turns green and you wait FOREVER for your chance to move forward because everyone is using their cognizance to anticipate when and how much they should move, and you compare the following hand to say- a bunch of train cars all hooked together moving as one unit when the engine accelerates. The former is slow and as we all know, inefficient. The latter is seamless and doesn't appear to struggle at all with timing or speed irregardless of how the train changes it's acceleration. 

This is why "feel" is so important. And why we always teach "first you go with the horse, then the horse goes with you" the capacity to have good hands has a lot to do with a riders learning of good seat. It's all so nicely tied together. Our brains are too slow/inaccurate at guessing so we train our ability to feel. Your horse will not always consistently move his head the same way to the same degree, but if you learn to go with him no matter what he does, this won't concern you.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have to agree with @lostastirrup


Both ways, following and anticipatory, will not be in perfect sync with the movement of the horse's head/mouth. But, a following hand is directed by the ACTUAL movement, whereas an anticipatory hand assumes a pattern it can predict. And if that pattern changes suddenly? The following hand is likely doing a bit of anticipatory movement anyway. My guess is the steady hand does a bit of both.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ACinATX said:


> I'm having a problem wrapping my head around being able to have hands that don't move while maintaining a constant contact with a horse's mouth. I feel like, when the horse is walking, if my hands don't move then I am creating very inconsistent, and possibly even uncomfortable contact with him, because his head moves when he walks, so the reins alternately tighten jand loosen. I feel like I'm trying to solve this by having loose fingers, which just lets the reins pull through and then when I need the contact of course it's not there. I know this isn't the right thing to do, but I do it anyway because I'm not sure WHAT to do!
> 
> I also feel like sometimes I tug at the reins when I'm posting. Can anyone give me some tips on how to maintain good, consistent contact? Particularly while having "still" hands?


I so feel for you, yet another part of riding where you can struggle for ever, then the light bulb comes on.

There are probably a few lucky souls that were born with an innate ability to understand and reproduce soft still hands, but most people struggle. The problem you have, and I know so well is thinking that softness or stillness, comes through a weak contact, soft fingers or soft wrists...after all these years I still get into trouble for “rein slip” start off with regulation length reins, but they just gradually seemto lengthen!

As so often with riding, we concentrate on the wrong thing, everybody talks about still hands, and you end up with hands bouncing up and down because you are trying so hard to hold them still. To achieve still hands you have to get better at absorbing the movement of the horse through your body, so start thinking of absorbing motion through the core. Then there are your hanging shoulders, no tension, just hanging, and then those elastic elbows. Everything moves a small amount, so your hands can stay still, relative to the horses movement. 

My breakthrough came by watching some videos of Charlotte Dujardine, not as I usually do watching the whole performance, but studying just the rider, what is she doing? When you really study it you see how much everything moves, so it looks like it’s staying still!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A following hand, as you are describing, is creating pressure because the horse's mouth is pulling your hand forward.

Suppose you anticipate. There are three possibilities:

1 - You over-compensate and the horse has a moment of slack reins.

2 - You do it just right and the horse has minimal pressure for constant contact.

3 - You under-compensate, and your hand 'follows' the horse's mouth but a little behind. That is what a following hand always does.

Overcompensating does not result in a total release of all pressure. At worst, judging from watching what happens, the reins will get perhaps an inch of slack momentarily. Reins with an inch of slack are not the same as slack reins with 3-4 inches of curve. If you tie a line to someone's finger and start to pull the slack out, they will feel an increase in tension before you get a totally straight line. Thin string will keep it negligible. Reins will not.

The problem with "feel" is we do not feel what the horse's mouth feels. Almost anyone you ask will say they use ounces of pressure, yet measurements always run in pounds - and often a lot of them. 



> A pilot study was performed using a strain gauge transducer intercalated between the bit and the left rein to measure rein tension dynamically during riding. *The strain patterns consisted of a series of spikes with frequencies corresponding to two per stride in walk and trot and one per stride in canter*. The highest tension recorded in each gait was 43 N at walk, 51 N at trot and 104 N in canter. Based on the results of this study, it is recommended that the methodology should be adapted so that both reins are instrumented simultaneously, data are transmitted telemetrically to eliminate the need for a tether connecting the horse to the computer, and kinematic data are synchronized with the rein tension recordings.
> 
> https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...-pilot-study/2B1EF77B40DC91D45AF5189B673CD301


One Newton on the surface of the Earth is equal to 101.972 grams, 0.224809 lb, or 3.59694 oz. *43 N at a walk would be over 9 lbs. 51 would be 11.5 lbs, and the canter maxed at 23 lbs*.

The easiest way to reduce those peaks is not to insist on constant contact and ride with rare contact. That is fine for steady state, but there are times my horse seems to WANT contact - at least for 30 seconds to a few minutes. And horses can choose to increase the pressure in their mouths for their own reasons. Perhaps the hardest I've pulled on Bandit was when he was eating grass in a Tom Thumb bit. He just wanted to stay and eat longer and it took a very hard pull to get his head up. It obviously did not hurt him excessively. When he raised his head, he only raised it to just above his withers and then moved on.

But if one wishes to be light - in the seat or in the mouth - then one must start by learning to anticipate the next step of the dance, and move WITH the horse instead of letting the horse push your rump or your hands. It is also arguable, and reasonable, to suggest lightness in pressure is NOT the correct goal. In "Rein Check
On contact, rein tension, and the myth of lightness", Hilary Clayton concludes lightness (as measured in lbs) is NOT the goal: 



> It is only when the rider has a secure, independent seat and is able
> to maintain a consistent contact with the reins that we see a regular pattern
> of undulations in rein tension that resembles the pattern seen with side
> reins.
> ...


Of course, I reject the idea that contact is in any way required for a horse to use his entire body "correctly", although she may be making that argument as 'correct for dressage'. *But she may be entirely correct that horses are content with a consistent total feel or experience rather than minimal pressure in the mouth.* OTOH, if we don't seek genuine lightness in the mouth, we most assuredly will not get there!

Same with their backs. An interesting yet perhaps unanswerable question is how small does the pressure need to be to encourage best performance and trust by the horse. That may be much higher than the minimum achievable.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> A following hand, as you are describing, is creating pressure because the horse's mouth is pulling your hand forward.
> 
> Suppose you anticipate. There are three possibilities:
> 
> ...


Hence the importance of rhythm in both horse and rider before riding with contact is established. Much of my riding is done without rhythm, so there is zero contact. Sliding down a ravine with the horse using its head for balance, or traversing an icy patch with the horse looking for the best spots for its feet just don't lend themselves to the German training scale very well... 

But on the other hand, even in the arena, if horse and rider and synched into a rhythm, any kind of contact has to be aggravating for the horse because it's not steady.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That post (with graphs and all) reminds me a bit of dreams I've had where I'm inexplicably back in High School, I've walked into class, and it's the final exam, for which I haven't studied!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I wonder what level of English rider this is supposed to benefit?



> A following hand, as you are describing, is creating pressure because the horse's mouth is pulling your hand forward.
> 
> Suppose you anticipate. There are three possibilities:
> 
> ...



It is important, because we start with the notion of the horse ‘pulling’ the hand forward, as an English rider I would only use the description pulling forward when a horse roots down on your hands, or when he is running off with you. We are looking for him to invite the hand forward, because we want to, in a rarely perfect world maintain a beautiful, light harmonious and steady contact.

In the above scenario, the well trained English horse being ridden in light contact, would be confused and frustrated to get sudden slack reins, he has been trained to work a certain way, and random slackness would not be helpful.

I would suggest that the author might do well to *gasp* take some lessons on an English horse, from a GOOD English trainer, and until then keep their book learned notions, or self taught ideas to themselves.

Does that sound rude? Maybe, does not make it any less true. Look English rider here, have been all my life, and it is only over the last few years that I have actually begun to understand, truly understand about contact and communication, and now I have Chuck I’m entering yet another dimension. Chuck is very well trained, well schooled, my first thought “protect this light mouth” which I tried by giving him a longer rein...that confused him, he tries to go faster, and dives his head down, looking for the contact he has been trained for.

Get it wrong the other way, take up too much contact when you have asked him to go forward, and he panics, you are staying go, but he can’t.

Get it right, follow his lead, but at the same time subtly ask for what you want, and it is truly a beautiful feeling, and he is happy, he understands what the aids are, what he is being asked, and he does it. Riding in contact is not what I thought it was, it is far more complex, and until you try it, and get it, you can’t possibly understand it.


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

@ACinATX , as you can see, different riders will give different answers based on our own experiences, which are influenced by discipline, horse conformation/training and bits used. My experience is hunt-jumpers and Dressage, and I have used everything from light, finger-tip contact all the way up to supporting-a-horse's-head contact. But, whatever the circumstances, I generally use what other posters have referred to as "elastic contact".

Getting back to your or¡ginal post, I would like to address a few points:

"I feel like I'm trying to solve this by having loose fingers..." This was what I was taught in hunt seat equitation, which is fine as long as you maintain pressure on the reins between the thumb and index finger so the horse cannot pull the reins out. When you need more contact, simply close your middle and ring finger around the reins. My Dressage trainer insists that this is incorrect ("close those fingers!"), but there are horses that respond well to this technique. 

"I also feel like sometimes I tug at the reins when I'm posting." Sorry, but this is a MAJOR sticking point for me, and you should discuss this issue with your trainer. Do you ride in chair seat? Do you do stirrupless work? I feel that riding without stirrups is absolutely essential to develop proper balance, posture, alignment and muscle function when riding. Unfortunately, many riders and trainers avoid it because, well, it hurts, and because there is a perceived inherent danger when riding with no stirrups. However, stirrupless work can even be done at a walk: try posting at a walk during cool down at the end of class, when your horse is relaxed and too tuckered out for shenanigans. You will improve your leg alignment, muscle strength and balance, making your posting more steady and efficient.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

@Spanish Rider yes I ride stirrupless all the time, bareback too, but posting bareback or without stirrups is another thing I haven't been able to get the hang of. I feel like I'm flinging my body around like a muppet. Maybe I should start another post about that...


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

B


ACinATX said:


> @Spanish Rider yes I ride stirrupless all the time, bareback too, but posting bareback or without stirrups is another thing I haven't been able to get the hang of. I feel like I'm flinging my body around like a muppet. Maybe I should start another post about that...


Getting a good posting trot without stirrups has a lot to do with your ability to keep with a rythm and use your leg and abdominals efficiently. I'd practice your sit trot and maybe pick up a Mary Wanless book of you want really good "brain pictures" practice having a steady leg in the stirrups and as you strengthen and get the feel of your sitting trot and your posting trot, try it for a stride or two without stirrups. It does help to have a bouncy horse or you have to create a lot of the propulsion to get you out of the saddle yourself.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

In my opinion it's both anticipating and following, together. Of course it's anticipating. Following a horse with your hands does not meant you take a blind hold on the reins and wait for a pull. Anticipation is required to set up your body and your mind for the feel of the horse. 


For example, you are transitioning from trot to canter or canter to trot. You will anticipate how the horse will move their body differently, shorten the reins or lengthen them, and prepare to follow the horse in a different way. When you're cantering, a following hand will not have anything to do with the hand, but will instead require that your elbow is relaxed so you can drop your forearm down and lift it up to follow the movement of the horse's head. Your hands are attached to the end of your wrists, forearms, and elbows, but the elbows are the primary factor in following.
When you're trotting, a following hand is very still, and when you're walking, a following hand will again relate to your elbow becoming the hinge that allows your forearm to raise and lower so your hand follows.


I feel that in my past, I focused on my hands and worried about my hands, when in reality before you can think about what your hands are doing, you need to think about your elbows. Without your elbows, your hands cannot be correct. 
You can see this in Charlotte Dujardin's riding, if you watch her elbows, particularly in the canter, you can see how they are the key to following the horse. They open, and close. The upper arm stays close to the body. The hands hold the reins. The elbows follow. The hands don't wait to be pulled on, but rather the elbows open and allow for the contact to stay the same as the horse moves.




 

A problem with instructors is that they often have difficulty explaining the concept behind what a person is doing, and instead they focus on creating a look. This often doesn't work, because every rider is different and every horse is different. One instructor I had would alternate between telling me to close my fingers on the reins, and to conversely not squeeze so my knuckles were white. Eventually I figured out that my hands are small and in order to close them around average reins, I have to hold hard enough that my hands are squeezing. She was unable to fix the issue, because she was applying blanket ideas to me without considering my individual self. Years later, I learned that if I get thin reins, I can hold them easily without getting tight. This is why I think we have to look at our riding to see what works for us personally, and what barriers we have to applying the concept we are trying for. 
One instructor had me thinking a lot about my hands and wrists. Another instructor had me thinking a lot about my posture and shoulders. No one really talked to me about how important my elbows were. But they are very key. 

It's not that horses "seek" contact, but rather they relate contact to cues. If you are not giving them the cues they are used to, they become insecure. We teach horses to accept pressure, but horses do not seek pressure, that is unnatural and studies show they will even give up food to avoid pressure. Horses need to be taught to carry themselves and function without bit contact, and it is a common problem that when a rider "drops" the horse, the horse falls apart. Dressage especially is meant to be a journey toward lightness and self-carriage, so if a horse is relying on contact he needs to learn to develop more. Of course dressage is difficult on a horse's body, and horses may need to lean on a rider if they are not built as well or are not strong enough for self-carriage. I'm speaking of ideals. But we should realize an ideal is not a horse that requires contact to perform, but rather just cues.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> ...It is important, because we start with the notion of the horse ‘pulling’ the hand forward, as an English rider I would only use the description pulling forward when a horse roots down on your hands, or when he is running off with you. We are looking for him to invite the hand forward...
> 
> In the above scenario, the well trained English horse being ridden in light contact, would be confused and frustrated to get sudden slack reins, he has been trained to work a certain way, and random slackness would not be helpful.
> 
> ...


Rude or not, it isn't based on reality. That is the problem with taking lessons for years and listening to the repeated myths as opposed to trying things and observing what happens.

Horses don't "invite the hand forward". They are moving their heads and body and will do so without a rider as well as with one. They don't go "Golly, rider, how about you move your hand forward?" They just move. Like the "Add a feather, lose a feather" nonsense your instructor taught you, it isn't matched with reality. Horses in side reins experience very similar pressures and pulls, and an experienced rider at best results in the peaks spreading out over a little longer time.

Nor was I talking about reins suddenly drooping inches. If you were to try it, and film yourself, and watch it in slow motion, the slack is small (an inch or so total) and perhaps 1/4 second. One moderates it with the pinkie. In fact, maybe if you TRIED it, you might discover even "the well trained English horse" would respond well. Of course, Bandit is NOT a well trained English horse...but I'm not in any way suggesting to throw away the reins and then grab them back.

Those who seek to keep the reins in a straight line as taught in English riding cannot see what pressure they are or are not creating in the horse's mouth. Once the line is straight, only instrumentation can reveal the truth. After all, almost every rider CLAIMS they are using ounces of pressure when instruments reveal 5-10 lbs of pressure!

I've given two simple ways to watch a video of yourself and see how well you match your horse's head motion with your hands. If riders never TRY to see how light they can be, they will never KNOW how their horse feels about their hands - a far more important judge than a human on the sidelines!

"_We teach horses to accept pressure, but horses do not seek pressure, that is unnatural and studies show they will even give up food to avoid pressure. Horses need to be taught to carry themselves and function without bit contact, and it is a common problem that when a rider "drops" the horse, the horse falls apart._" - @gottatrot

When I took lessons (western), they were very variable in quality. Plenty of bad practices and yet some very good. One of the good things was her emphasis on how aware and sensitive horses are. She said her goal was to someday become 1/3 as sensitive to her horse as her horse was to her, and that she would never achieve it!

She was right. Horses must view us like drunks in a bar, shouting near senseless stories without knowing if anyone is listening. I've argued for Caprilli's goal of simplicity in cues. What I find is horses can read my mind, and often will, hearing and responding to cues I don't even know I am giving. But horses don't talk to people who won't listen, and they don't listen carefully to those who insist on shouting continuously. If someone wants to become a light rider, they must TRY to be as light as possible. That requires giving up this approach:










That was done with an experienced dressage rider using a following hand. Or perhaps a following fist, which is how several writers say a horse should be ridden. It is doubtlessly true a horse can get used to it and compensate, but it is a pretty ugly picture. 

In the western world, I like Larry Trocha. He's helped me in many ways. But I find it disturbing when he claims all experienced horses get duller mouths over time! Horses are incredibly sensitive creatures. We ought to challenge ourselves as riders to explore and engage that sensitivity instead of training it out of them. Horses will tolerate a heavy hand. It is up to us, as riders, to explore how light a hand we can use effectively. No human standing on the sidelines watching us can tell us. ONLY the horse knows.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Intermittant contact, dropping the contact for even half an inch at times, destroys the quality of the contact. A horse cannot work into the outside rein if it doesn't have somewhere supporting to to. There are ways to test the quality of the contact and self carriage, with the deliberate and tactful release forward of the inside rein, maintaining the outside rein contact.

Yea, horses do learn how to ask the hand to come forward. Ride a horse who wants to stretch their topline and its obvious. They will ask for the hand to go forward and allow the stretch, different than pulling or rooting. The stretch is the most obvious, but they will do this other times as well: extended gaits, transitions, ect. You have to have the feel and have a horse educated enough to know they are allowed to ask.

As far as poundage in the hand, expectation vs reality, I don't care about the numbers for the most part. There is a clear difference in weight in the hands between a heavy pulling contact and a lighter self carriage contact. Even if we were using 4lbs, it's still within the range of comfort, based on other studies of rein pressure.

Dressage is an academic sport. Books can be great sources of theory, but you need the requisite knowledge and understanding of the fundamentals to use that theory. The best place to find that is from a skilled trainer and their schoolmasters.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Hands are a "feel" type of issue in my opinion. There are different ways to ride different horses and while your hand position will stay the same, the amount of pressure you have and the flow will change if that makes sense. For instance, if your horse is galloping (on purpose) then you are going to slide your hands up further along the neck and may not have any rain contact but your hands won't be moving forward and back so much as your entire body will be going with the flow. Your hands will stay in line with your body.

Western pleasure you won't have any reign contact and your hand will stay in the same spot with no movement. English will be slightly different but even that will change some depending on hunter under saddle, dressage, pleasure... It's not THAT much different but there is a different amount of pressure and give and body flow...

I know my wording isn't eloquent but I think what they are trying to say is that you maintain your hands at whatever position is the equitationally correct place but you have follow through the flow in your body. 

I can't word it right.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The difference in reaction to contact (on the part of the horse) is directly related to how much (English) training and what sort of training that horse has had
For the sake of this discussion I'm focusing on a horse that's had some level of basic dressage training even if its not aimed at dressage.
That's where the horse's reaction to contact changes, quite early on in the process.
If I suddenly drop the contact altogether by allowing the reins to lengthen and droop down on my horses, while still asking them to go forwards, they will simply proceed in 'self carriage' - head and neck in normal English riding position.
If I slowly lengthen the reins while maintaining the contact,while still asking them to move forwards, the horse will most certainly 'seek' that contact and lengthen and lower his neck as it does so.
This is how we cue a free walk (part of the dressage test) or a free trot if wanted.
As with many other things, unless you've ridden a horse that's trained to respond in the correct way to a cue then its not possible to 'have a feel' for it. 
Free walk starts around 3:05. Contact is maintained by using the snaffle rein only


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> It's not that horses "seek" contact, but rather they relate contact to cues. If you are not giving them the cues they are used to, they become insecure. We teach horses to accept pressure, but horses do not seek pressure, that is unnatural and studies show they will even give up food to avoid pressure. Horses need to be taught to carry themselves and function without bit contact, and it is a common problem that when a rider "drops" the horse, the horse falls apart. Dressage especially is meant to be a journey toward lightness and self-carriage, so if a horse is relying on contact he needs to learn to develop more. Of course dressage is difficult on a horse's body, and horses may need to lean on a rider if they are not built as well or are not strong enough for self-carriage. I'm speaking of ideals. But we should realize an ideal is not a horse that requires contact to perform, but rather just cues.


Disagree with this, of course they do not go around seeking contact, but when a horse is trained to be ridden in contact he is lost and confused when that contact is intermittent. The steady contact of the outside rein is always there, and if you take it away he will look for it.

Again we are talking about English riding here, where contact is required, so not sure how “we NEED to teach horses to function without bit contact applied”

There are plenty of disciplines and styles of riding out there that do not require that horse and rider learn to communicate in such a precise way, so if the notion of contact upsets a person they have plenty of options to choose from.

Yes Dressage is seeking ever more self carriage, but the communication of leg, body and hand will always be there, to guide, request and support.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I agree that horses need to know how to travel without contact. I don't want them falling over themselves or steering like a drunk because I want to do some hands free schooling(position/seat work), or if I want to go for a loose rein hack down the trails. I can do w/t/c with no trouble on a slack rein. 

I don't, however, expect my horse to perform to the same degree and I don't use wishy-washy contact. Either he's on a loose rein or he's on contact.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Oh I agree with that @ApuetsoT, different things being spoken about, so yes every horse should be able to walk trot canter on a loose rein, but the op was talking about working in contact.

It’s a given to me that horses are started without much contact, LOL, it’s a problem that is rearing its head for me. First show is in 6 weeks, and we are still to cold to ride here. Unless we get some training time then Chuck and I will have to enter walk trot, and when he is working he expects to frame up like a first level horse....I think he will struggle to act like a walk trot horse, and will not do so well.

But, equally he is a horse you can go for a trail ride on and he will mosey along with no, or little contact, we always end walking on a totally loose rein to cool off. But when he is working, either in his old life as a jumper, or as a Dressage horse, he expects contact, and a sympathetic, constant light contact at that.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I remember the first time that I felt what real, mutual connection through the bit felt like . . . . It felt like having a dialogue with the horse.


Prior to that, I had such willy nilly contact on the reins, that it must have been like @bsms was saying; loud shouting, then total silence, then completely tuning out the horse's messages to me, with occasionally me telling the horse to turn or stop, out of the blue.


But that day things felt different. Through a following contact, I could feel that the more I slowed my hand, the more the horse gave to the bit, but not in some sudden, lurching manner. And when I ever so slightly openned my hand, my horse reached her head more forward, when I closed my hand a bit, and applied some leg, she stepped up more, and I could feel some lift in her back. When she did this, I openned my hand, and advanced it, and she followed it forward, stretching downward.


It was amazing to feel all these minute changes, back and forth, through my hand, and expressed in her body position, too.
It's a wonderful sort of intimacy with a horse.


I am sure that a very well trained western horse will feel and react to such minute changes by a mear lifting of the rein, but it takes a VERY good rider to make such small adjustments on a really drooping rein, becuase the weight and swing of the rein itself adds another element that I think increases the possibility of delayed reactions. It's just that much harder to add in a 'tiny' amount of pressure when you have a loose rein, and that much harder to feel how your horse is accepting that, in his mouth. You have to be more focussed on how he accepts it in his body language, which means you have to really be a better rider.


I don't have any charts to prove this . I only have my own experience and what that makes me presume to be right. I've ridden both with loose reins, and with steady, following contact. They each have their place.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

It seems to me this thread had drifted into theory and away from practice. Maybe a thread should be started in the horse training section where differences in opinion of working on the contact can be addressed. I always feel bad when the OP asks a question, that should get simple advice and suddenly a full on training debate occurs. I think @bsms has some valid points, but I also think those of us that are a little more dressage studied have some very valid objections. 

When it comes down to it, following hand or anticipatory hand whichever you choose, needs to come from an independent seat and an understanding of what the riders whole body position should do, which is where (as far as I can tell) the OP is at in her riding. Discussions on theory may be better addressed in a different thread. 


I may be wrong. Forgive me if that's the case.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Yet there must be theory behind what we do, or else how do we know why we are doing what we practice? 

To help the OP, I hope @DanteDressageNerd does not mind, but this video is a good illustration of the concepts I believe are true about maintaining still hands with the contact you want. 

If you slow it down to 0.25 time (use the little sprocket on the bottom right of the video), you can watch and see how the rider keeps her hands both following and still by opening her elbows as I was describing in a previous post. This is done by both feeling and anticipating the horse's movement and how it will effect her body, and also by the feel of the horse through the reins. In slow motion you can see how the reins become more slack and then more taut,_* because that is what is required in order to keep the same amount of pull on the bit as the horse moves*_. This is true of the most feathery light contact that is no more than the touch of pressure on the bit, and also of very hard contact. If you were to insist that the reins have the same tension throughout the movement, then the bit would get pulled back in the horse's mouth with each stride, essentially hampering the free movement of the horse's neck through the stride rather than following it.

Now what the OP is talking about with slack and tighter reins sounds more like her hands are not following through the horse's movement, and perhaps that is because her elbows are tight, so I am hoping some of this video illustration might help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=40&v=VzvE7IlS2Ic


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I dont even know where to begin on the concept of contact and what it means. It can be made really complicated to really simple. When I teach someone the idea of contact. I often have them bridge their reins, touch their hands together and bring their elbows in to learn how to feel the horse's mouth in an elastic connection. or Ill take those elastic bands and have myself on one end and them on the other and have them feel and follow. I think that connection is the basis of contact.

Then you build on that understanding. And I'm guessing a lot of this wont make sense. ATM I'm not sure how to break it down in a clearer way. 

I also think contact is different on every horse. For my personal horse for example I think he is quite strong in the contact. I think a apart of it is he is a former race horse and there they learn how to lean into the bit, take control and use their power that way but a bigger part is how powerful he is off the hind end and how much power is being pushed to the hand and having to organize all that power in the seat and core as well as have him back off the contact. The only way I've found to have him relaxed, in rhythm and working over his back is using collection and laterals. As well as something Im not sure how to describe but I learned riding saddle seat horses and training greenies how to back off the bit. I've ridden hundreds of horses. Even 18+h wbs I've ridden dont have half of his power. He is all power and engine, I compare him to a revved up Ferrari. The amount of power generated from each push off of his hind end is unreal, the only horse I've ridden I can compare was an alternate for the olympics and a stallion. The reason that amount of power in the push off matters is because you feel it in the contact and in the bridle. It's a lot more pressure in my hand and a heck of a lot more to organize than if I ride a little qh or an arabian or the majority of thoroughbreds who dont have anywhere near that kind of power or amount of movement. They dont have that kind of strength to use against you making it very important to set a boundary line in the rider's body of following connection. A horse like mine has talent for the GP but is very hard to ride and train. My trainer said for him taking him up the levels will be a cake walk but filling in all the information between will be a heck of a challenge and she was right. He's also the only horse I've ever had with her that she suggested I use a draw rein on. I agree with her reasoning but I didnt because I know this horse would rear and flip if he hit the line and had no room to argue. He has to be allowed to argue but also have a clear boundary. Just one that is ALWAYS testing that limit, he's much better now but have to be consistent and keep directing him back to the boundary then it gets easier and easier over time.

This is youngster, my sweet Francesca. With the young horse, I think sometimes they're a better example because everything is about flow and the rider is not yet setting a "boundary" in terms of building the dressage idea of "collection." It's just having a horse happy relaxed, meeting and contact with clear rhythm and allowing. I think of being in a neutral state a lot, just having a horse know to follow my position and body. Basics. 





I remember a year ago, Wonder the ottb literally from sitting trot pulled me up onto his neck because I tried to set a boundary of not being pulled on. He's also thrown my back out, torn my core muscles, and I remember one day riding him and after my whole body was so sore the next day I couldnt get out of bed, I had to roll out and I limped everywhere for about 3 days because I tried to establish what I call my dance space and him learning to respect my dance space because he pulled SO hard against me. I'd grab the saddle pad or "oh sh!t" strap so he couldn't pull against me and was just fighting himself. It took a lot to get him to respect contact at all. It was not a pain issue, it was a very very clever horse trying to take control and testing every way he knew to avoid releasing his body to me. For him it was all about challenging dominance. He was the same on the ground until maybe 2 wks ago then something clicked *shrugs* no idea. He is one of the hardest horses I've ever worked with but also the most rewarding. Also think he's not the best example because he is unconventional. With him straightness before bend, collection before relaxation else he's unridable past a walk Throw the reins at him besides at the walk if he isnt on the aids and he's just bolting, running trot that's almost 5 gaited and no steering. This is one the rider has to set a clear boundary and at every point expect the horse respect or he uses his strength to bully the rider and take control but at the same time the rider has to be patient and cant be rough against him or he will rear, take the bit, bolt, etc. Not been the easiest horse to work with but learned a lot. He is also the kind where if a rider gets strong against him in a lateral aid, he just pushes his body into the rider's aid and then uses his body against the rider. It's mind over matter but that's a high level concept.









These horses also stretch. 





gottatrot- I dont mind, I think that video is more of setting a boundary and teaching a horse to respect and understand the boundary because we were developing a collected canter. Setting the boundary often has ugly phases. Have to challenge a horse a bit and go through the ugly moments to build strength but dont drill or fixate on them or the horse just becomes tense and bitter. that mare was pretty tricky but a good horse. I think I could ride that much better now and fix it faster but we're all improving. Collection is very hard for this mare. I think when developing collection the hard part to explain is that you have to teach a horse how to follow the rider's body and hand which means ugly moments, as well as to respect the dance space of each partner. I think developing collection in horses is an ugly process to start with and then once the horse understands and learns to follow the rider's body and hand it becomes light and elegant where you can put your hands forward and the horse still follows the rider but to teach them to do it with the back up and true from behind is a process because you're changing the boundary line. It's hard for riders and horses and small timing and feel errors are less forgivable. I think the less you demand, the more forgiveness and the less we encroach on the horse's boundary or tolerance, if that makes sense? In the beginning I really had to use my core to stabilize my body and elbows into my body, so she couldn't pull against me. She was a good horse but she came from a trainer that was very hands on and would hold her through everything. Everything I ever got from that trainer had mouth issues whether it was tongue falling out or lips. She didnt know what a half halt was when I started with her and in the canter was quite tricky because she's naturally very weak behind with an irregular canter, long back and very short neck. But she was smart with a good work ethic.

Feel like that was a bit off topic, my apologies. It's a lot of information and trying to figure out what avenue to approach or explain. But I think it is important to know when teaching connection and collection you want to feel push back from the horse as in. The horse meeting the contact and feeling a bit of push in the bridle but not so much that they're pulling on you and that's the base boundary. Then as you advance up the levels and start asking more from the horse, as in taking more weight behind, lowering the croup, coming up in the shoulder while still being over the back it gets tricky.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You also have to have it clear in your mind that 'contact' isn't 'pressure' - the horse correctly accepting 'contact' in terms of the 'dialogue' (re. Tinyliny's great post) you have with your horse is the first step you take when you want to start to use pressure to cue the horse for whatever comes next.
If you think of it like placing your hand very gently on the side of a horse that's been trained to 'give to pressure' the horse won't move but you still have contact with its side. If you increase that pressure then at some point the horse will respond by moving away. You can return to having just the lightest contact and the horse will stand still again. 
The contact is still there, its the pressure increasing or decreasing that changes and makes the difference 


It all sounds terribly complicated in theory but in practice, with more and more practice, it suddenly starts to make sense


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Just FYI, I have read all of the posts and watched most of the videos, and thought about it all A LOT. It was all very useful! One reason I asked about this here is because I wanted to get a lot of different perspectives and approaches. I ride with two or three different instructors, and usually between them one of them can explain things to me in a way that makes sense, but not this time.

I appreciate all of the different ways everyone looks at this, and I enjoyed reading through the theory posts as well. FWIW today my instructor actually commented, without me asking, that my contact was great throughout the whole lesson. She has NEVER said that before. Leg pressure was also good! And Pony did REALLY well! So maybe I am getting there. Thanks all!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think we have been force-feeding the OP with a firehose worth of information, when all she wanted (and needed for now) was a sip . . . the right sip.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

tinyliny said:


> I think we have been force-feeding the OP with a firehose worth of information, when all she wanted (and needed for now) was a sip . . . the right sip.


"It takes many gulps to get to the right sip." --Me. 

Pretty profound huh?


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## Spanish Rider (May 1, 2014)

Just a quick follow-up:

In the discussion about improving leg position and strength for improved posting, I asked about stirrupless work. You responded yes, and that you also rode bareback. IMHO, bareback riding is not the best to improve leg position. In fact, it can make it worse. If you look at Dante's bareback videos, you will see her in a very exaggerated chair seat position. This is because the downward slope behind the withers forces the rider to rotate the pelvis forward at the pubis, sitting further back on our "pockets" and forcing our legs forward. If you already have a well-developed seat, like our Dante, this is of no matter, because the goal is to connect our ischial tuberosities to the horse's back and balance ourselves on those two points, so our legs are loose and passive. HOWEVER, to develop proper leg position, alignment (which is different than position) and strength, I would definitely recommend stirrupless work over bareback riding.

Have fun exploring!


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## AndalusionTales (Dec 25, 2018)

They aren't really still. They are just in place on either side of the withers. My great granny said the term, "still hands" came about because novice and very young riders who didn't have seat balance yet would try to get it with the reins. So when they would trot, their hands would move up and down with their trot. With their movement, not with the horses. So they used to say, "Keep your hands still, at the side of the neck, like you are riding a hobby horse, kinda. You can move but your hand remains with the horse's movement. The hobby horse will move forward and back and the wooden bar going through it's head will always remain moving with the horse even if you are sliding off to the side, lol.

Anyways, none of us ever knew if great granny was ever telling us the truth or making up as she went so....

We understood the hobby horse though.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

The best analogy I've got for working in contact when doing dressage is that it's like holding hands when dancing with a partner. It helps you stay in sync, and to know what each other are doing, and if you're doing it right, it's not painful or irritating to either side, it's just part of the dance and the togetherness and the partnership. It's very much like @tinyliny explained.

And before anyone says, "Oh yes, but that's not a valid analogy because there's metal in the mouth on one side and leather in hands on the other!" let me just point out that all analogies have points of similarity and points of difference, but are still useful in teaching ideas despite of this (and if we think about it, we are aware of the purpose of, and limitations of, an analogy for getting a concept across).

My great loves are dressage and trails. When the horse is warmed up, with me, dressage happens mostly in light contact; while trails are mostly on a loose rein, but if I need to communicate precisely with the horse for some reason while on a trail, I gather up into light contact for that duration. For example, monsters in the bush, a jump across a fallen tree, direction cues at speed.

I've also done a fair bit of bitless riding, in padded English hackamores and in plain halters and lead ropes. It's not quite as precise as working with a bit, but I think it's an excellent thing to do to improve overall communication with a horse and make you rely less on a bit where you can get communication across in other ways (and it's great fun). Same with riding stirrupless and bareback. It think they're all useful, and interesting to do, and make us better horsepeople. It's about not getting stuck in one particular box, one particular way of doing things, finding different ways to communicate. And listening to the horse is, in my book, at least as important as teaching a horse cues. Ideally, a horse ride is a two-way conversation - with a certain telepathic quality. Like a dance.


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## Volvo (Feb 11, 2019)

I have a question related to this. On my new horse my instructor is telling me to keep the reigns longer??? When I do that I feel as if im not in enough contact. I've ridden the other horse for so long that im used to keeping them a bit short, half cos of defensive riding , and half cos I would try to control him from snatching the reins, when I did ride him with longer relaxed rein, it was for a short time cos he would start his antics of pulling the rein from me, and also cos my fear would kick in. Also on that horse I was told repeatedly to keep my reins tighter and shorter cos he would pull them from me, or not listen to me. 
What is contact supposed to feel like? Is a very slight slack allowed? Not too big. 
I listen to what my instructor tells me, but I need also know in my head. I'm a very theory oriented person, so I need to know the thing in my head first. Maybe my instructor is not able to communicate that... Any ideas? 

Also dealing with fear is strange, cos I notice that for half the ride I'm pumped, and can do anything. But then, I don't know when it sneaks in, and I fall back into same pattern! It's crazy! I don't want this new horse to figure out my fear.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Volvo said:


> What is contact supposed to feel like? Is a very slight slack allowed? Not too big.
> I listen to what my instructor tells me, but I need also know in my head. I'm a very theory oriented person, so I need to know the thing in my head first. Maybe my instructor is not able to communicate that... Any ideas?


The lightest contact that allows you to communicate with the horse, no heavier than the horse will accept and, because it feels uncomfortable and claustrophobic, seeks release by trying to pull the reins out of your hands. Reins are a communication tool, that's it. You don't use them to keep the horse from falling apart or prevent the head from falling off. The horse should seek the contact, it shouldn't be imposed on it. Anything else will make for a frustrated horse that is trying to find release - which is why we train them with pressure and release. If you put on pressure with unreasonable contact, the horse will try to figure out what to do to find comfort. If it doesn't know how to do that "properly" (by flexing the abdominal sling and telescoping the neck), it'll find some other way. You have observed what that looks like. Stop trying to outmuscle the horse.

The horse will tell you which level of contact is appropriate. Let him warm up with a loose rein so he can relax with you and find a rhythm. Then pick up the reins and take up some contact. Do not forget to follow with your hands! Observe whether the horse remains relaxed and rhythmic. If yes, good! You just found the right amount of contact.

Contact may become a little firmer at faster gaits - as long as you follow with your hands religiously! It's like someone tapping you on the shoulder when you are alone in a dark room, or someone tapping you on the shoulder whilst in the audience at a rock concert. The bigger the distraction, the bigger the signal can be to get your attention. Still, you don't want to get a punch to the kidneys to get your attention, if you get my analogy.


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## Volvo (Feb 11, 2019)

mmshiro said:


> It's like someone tapping you on the shoulder when you are alone in a dark room, or someone tapping you on the shoulder whilst in the audience at a rock concert. The bigger the distraction, the bigger the signal can be to get your attention. Still, you don't want to get a punch to the kidneys to get your attention, if you get my analogy.


Lol makes sense. Thanks.


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