# how to prepare a young horse to be ridden



## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I'd let her grow up before asking her to carry a heavy rider.

If you don't know the cues or how to teach them are you sure you're the right person to be training her?


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

natisha said:


> I'd let her grow up before asking her to carry a heavy rider.
> 
> If you don't know the cues or how to teach them are you sure you're the right person to be training her?


that wasn't very helpful, but i appreciate you taking the time to respond.

she is a foundation bred quarter horse and will never be very tall. 
most are started at 18-24 months
i've mostly left her alone up until now

advise on how to get her ready would be appreciated


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Did you learn to drive a car by yourself?

Did you learn how to tie your shoes by yourself?

Would you go see a doctor who had completely taught himself?


There are some things in life that you just don't teach yourself without ANY hands-on help from another person. Training horses is one of those things. 

Sure, we can give you lots of tips over the internet but the single most important thing we cannot help you with --> *TIMING. *

Timing is the most critical thing when you are training a young horse. Stop your cue too soon, and the horse doesn't make the connection between the cue and the response. Don't stop the cue soon enough and the horse has learned it can ignore you. 

You need to at least take a lesson every now and then from someone who is experienced with starting a colt from the ground up. You don't have to ship them off to the trainer for 30 days, but you should get *hands-on *help. 

This can be a potentially dangerous situation for you. It's the subtle signs that tell you a horse is about to do something. If you aren't experienced enough to know what those signs are, that's when we have people come on here and ask _"why did my horse buck for no reason?"_. There's always a sign and a reason for every horse doing what it does. Some people just don't have the expertise to actually know what those signs are, and recognize them when they occur.


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## XxXHunterJumperXxX (Oct 9, 2014)

Is this your first colt? If so I would recommend getting help from someone in your area that can help you through the steps, younger ones can be very unpredictable and if you miss a step most likely you end up having to start all over or back up quite a few steps and re due them. 

One thing that will help is driving her. Which requires you to be on the ground. You can either have her fully tacked up or you can just use a bridle and surcingle. You attache a lunge line to each side of the bridle, usually clipping on the bit, and go through the rings on a surcingle or through the stirrups if your using a saddle (make sure the stirrups are tied together by using bailing twine or something). The purpose of driving is to teach them the pressure of the bit, along with cues you would use in the saddle (like turning, backing, side passing). My boss absolutely swears by it and always has me start the young ones with it before getting on. There are too different positions you can be in, one is more advanced and the other is for those new to driving. The easiest way when you first start is to stand behind her, not right behind her of course, but enough that if she gets scared she wont hurt you. Being in this position is a lot easier for the person to control the horse and have them go where they want. The other position, when you've been doing it for a while and feel comfortable, is standing off to the side (for example like when you lunge her in a round pen you're in the middle of it, same concept here) You'll be in the middle as your horse moves around you. It's a lot more difficult but after I did driving for about month or so ,without realizing it ,I had started moving more towards the middle of the round pen while driving. Since it's easier to show someone how to drive then tell them I would look up some videos on driving horses so you know where to place your hands and how to ask for turns. 

One thing that I like to do is to make sure that they know how to pivot from pressure. You can either use a crop/whip or just your finger. If I use my finger, I'll stand next to their barrel , a little behind their shoulder and apply pressure in the area where I would normally ask for when I want a horse to turn his hindquarters. So I just keep my finger (usually my thumb) and press in that area, I usually push into them sometimes if they just ignore me. When they do move I rub the area and ask again, this time with lighter pressure. I do that until they move of my hand from the slightest touch. 
If you use a crop/whip it's basically the same process, instead you tap them with the crop/whip in a constant rhythm until they respond. 

Another good thing to make sure your horse knows, is how to bend his head around. If you get in a bad situation (bucking, bolting , etc.) it's good to know that you can bend their head around in either direction to get them to stop. You just need them in a halter and you can work on it whenever, before you put her up or when she's just sitting around. All you do is stand near her shoulder and bring her head around as far as it will go. She probably wont want to go that far at first just from lack of flexibility. She'll want to most likely turn her hindquarters and start going in a circle, just follow her, keeping her head bent until she stops. When she stops look for some kind of release, usually they will bend a little more towards you and then bend back. When she does that release the pressure and praise her. And you just repeat the process on both sides till she's comfortable doing it whenever you ask. Also after she's comfortable bending you can start asking her to bend with a bridle on, and just put the pressure on the bit to get her to turn her head. 

Most of the muscle they get is usually gained from under saddle work. You could lunge her as much as you want but it'll take longer for them to gain muscle on the ground then it will in the saddle. Not to mention she's too young to have that type of muscle now anyway, once you start doing more with her under saddle and when she's done growing she'll fill out more. 

I would recommend not to work her 4-6 days a week. At least if you do, don't do the same thing everyday and keep the time short, like 20-30 min. Young colts have an attention span of ten-15 minutes and get a lot more frustrated then older horses. Plus since she's still a young too much work can sour them later on. Unless you're doing desensitizing, you can never do too much of that. 

Hope that helps, can't think of anything else right now that would be beneficial to learn. If you need any other help just message me. Have fun.


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## gingerscout (Jan 18, 2012)

I personally wouldn't ask a horse that is 3 or just under 3 to carry a heavy rider at ALL let alone 4-6 days a week, not if you want the horse to remain sound over 8-10 years of age.. the harder they are worked as babies, the faster they wear out


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

beau159 said:


> Sure, we can give you lots of tips over the internet


thank you -- that would be excellent


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

I would wait until the horse is over three before starting to ride. Make sure he has good manners on the ground, do lots of groundwork. Then get him used to wearing the tack which you've probably already done. Then I would get on bareback to let him get used to having a rider, and this way you can quickly slide off instead of having to kick out of stirrups and whatnot. 

Lunge him in the tack to make sure he knows how it feels and if he dislikes it, you won't be on him. 

If this IS your first colt, ask someone with experience to come give you tips and help you out. Not entirely take over to where you get no experience.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

XxXHunterJumperXxX said:


> Is this your first colt? If so I would recommend getting help from someone in your area that can help you through the steps, younger ones can be very unpredictable and if you miss a step most likely you end up having to start all over or back up quite a few steps and re due them.
> 
> One thing that will help is driving her. Which requires you to be on the ground. You can either have her fully tacked up or you can just use a bridle and surcingle. You attache a lunge line to each side of the bridle, usually clipping on the bit, and go through the rings on a surcingle or through the stirrups if your using a saddle (make sure the stirrups are tied together by using bailing twine or something). The purpose of driving is to teach them the pressure of the bit, along with cues you would use in the saddle (like turning, backing, side passing). My boss absolutely swears by it and always has me start the young ones with it before getting on. There are too different positions you can be in, one is more advanced and the other is for those new to driving. The easiest way when you first start is to stand behind her, not right behind her of course, but enough that if she gets scared she wont hurt you. Being in this position is a lot easier for the person to control the horse and have them go where they want. The other position, when you've been doing it for a while and feel comfortable, is standing off to the side (for example like when you lunge her in a round pen you're in the middle of it, same concept here) You'll be in the middle as your horse moves around you. It's a lot more difficult but after I did driving for about month or so ,without realizing it ,I had started moving more towards the middle of the round pen while driving. Since it's easier to show someone how to drive then tell them I would look up some videos on driving horses so you know where to place your hands and how to ask for turns.
> 
> ...


yes -- first filly (not sure why people say colt when colts are boys)

i like the idea of ground driving and planned on adding that for the 2nd month of ground work -- i have someone i can ask about how to set that up. Thank you for that. 

Pivoting from pressure is something i also wanted to teach, but i was not even sure on where to begin. I know they are sensitive enough to feel a fly on a single muscle and twitch it to get it off -- so i wanted to make sure i did it as exact as possible from the ground. Thank you for the tip on this.

thanks for reminding me about flexability -- we have not started doing that yet, and i want to add it in next week as part of our warm up.

i understand it will be slow going to get her to muscle up without over taxing her, but i wanted to get her as far as i could without actually getting on her. I do have her lunge with the saddle on her, just once so far, but i plan to add it in more often to help with the muscling.


right now i am working her 45 minutes to an hour. we start with walking and whoa'ing for 5-10 minutes -- then i walk her to a different spot in the pasture and we work on walk/trot/whoa for 10-15 minutes -- we take a scratch and praise break -- then i back her up/lead her forward for 5-10 minutes --- then we trot/lope/whoa for a little while

although the work lasts for a while, i change it up often, and do not spend a long time with hard exercise.

thank you for the post -- that was very helpful


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

gingerscout said:


> I personally wouldn't ask a horse that is 3 or just under 3 to carry a heavy rider at ALL let alone 4-6 days a week, not if you want the horse to remain sound over 8-10 years of age.. the harder they are worked as babies, the faster they wear out


that is a good point -- maybe i will keep it to 2-3 times a week until she gets used to it


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Roman said:


> I would wait until the horse is over three before starting to ride. Make sure he has good manners on the ground, do lots of groundwork. Then get him used to wearing the tack which you've probably already done. Then I would get on bareback to let him get used to having a rider, and this way you can quickly slide off instead of having to kick out of stirrups and whatnot.
> 
> Lunge him in the tack to make sure he knows how it feels and if he dislikes it, you won't be on him.
> 
> If this IS your first colt, ask someone with experience to come give you tips and help you out. Not entirely take over to where you get no experience.


i don't think bareback would be good for me since i do not have good balance and the saddle does a good job of distributing the weight. I have lunged her in tack recently -- saddle and bit - no reins


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

jmike said:


> yes -- first filly (not sure why people say colt when colts are boys)


We probably forgot the small details, lol.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Roman said:


> We probably forgot the small details, lol.


i figured it was just something people say when training a young horse -- they are all colts until they get trained -- or something like that

just checking to see if it was a horse-culture thing


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## jamesdean57 (Feb 2, 2013)

jmike I think this would be a good book for you. I know it helped me out a lot.


Clinton Anderson's Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect and Control


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

jmike said:


> thank you -- that would be excellent


Honestly, I don't even know where to start. 

There are _so_ many things that go into starting a colt/filly. 


And this .....



jmike said:


> i do not have good balance


...really, really concerns me.

And just based on your history on this forum:
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/advice-horse-not-turning-where-i-435082/
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horse-pushing-past-me-through-gate-421434/
http://www.horseforum.com/new-horses/finding-my-seat-saddle-question-420298/

I don't like to put people down or say they can't do things, but I just don't see how you are *READY* to be starting a filly on your own when you have such basic problems with basic riding. 

If you can't control your lower leg, you are going to confuse the heck out of your filly when you are inadvertently cueing her with your leg. 

If you don't know how to keep your filly out of your space on the ground, she isn't going to respect your leadership in the saddle either. 

You just need a lot of work with basic things, that I do not believe you are ready for something as advanced as teaching a filly to ride for the first time. I say this with your SAFETY in mind. It's usually about that 5th or 6th ride that a colt figures out how to buck, and that's what people usually aren't ready for.


I know you were taking lessons at some point. Are you still doing so?


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

beau159 said:


> Honestly, I don't even know where to start.
> 
> There are _so_ many things that go into starting a colt/filly.
> 
> ...


yes -- still taking lessons consistently
my seat has gotten much better 
i have control of my lower legs now, even at a trot
she no longer blows past me through the gate
she is still pushy with others, but not so much with me
we will continue to work on that through the next 2 months

i appreciate that you think i am not ready and I respect your opinion.
you are most likely correct
i will continue anyways


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## RedOne (Oct 17, 2014)

These are some things to remember when training a horse.
*apply pressure to the horse gradually when asking for something new never start asking with a lot of pressure always start with the slightest pressure than work your way up until the horse responds. You do not want to apply too much pressure so the horse ends up flipping their switch i.e. reacts out of either flight or fight

*Never reapply a cue if it results in bad behaviour instead redirect the horse's feet and then ask cue again

*Do not use excessive correction instead reward the horse for the slightest try even if the horse didn't do it correctly

*Always set the horse up for success, never ask a horse to do something that is too advanced. Remember horse prefer to take the road that leds to least resistance

Whenever I'm starting to work with a new horse I always assess the horses behaviour. So watch how the horse behaves in the paddock, while being led, being brushed, tied up. Does your horse get easily distracted, tense, relaxed, listening or does horse react with flight response or fight response. This can tell you how to train the horse.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

jmike said:


> i am trying to prep a young horse to be ridden
> she is 2-1/2 years old now
> i have been on her 2-3 times in the past 6 months for 5-10 minutes each time
> i just started working her daily on Monday
> ...


Here are some thoughts:
Can you back her one step at a time while she waits for the cue for the next step?
Can you back her in a circle, both clockwise, and counter clockwise?
Can you 'leg yield' from the ground both directions?
Can you move her shoulders over?
Can you move her hind end over?
Can you move her rib cage?

The first few rides are the most important, setting the foundation of her riding career for the rest of her life. I would recommend you have someone who knows how to ride put the first few rides on her.

If you do it yourself just remember you will make mistakes. Don't blame the horse. These mistakes are part of life, but be prepared to take the time to correct what your mistakes may cause her to do/become.

It may be 'cheaper' in the long run having a trainer put 30 or 60 days on her, vs. having to hire someone later to fix any and all problems.

Is your instructor teaching you cues now? How do you cue the horse you are taking lessons on?

Just some rambling thoughts for consideration.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

I agree with the other posters that you are not anywhere near ready to be starting horses under saddle yet, but saying anything further on the subject is just beating a dead horse. I also disagree with young horses carrying a heavier rider that early on in their life, but again saying more would be pointless. 

Don't give yourself a timeline, timelines are for people not horses. If she's doing well, end on a good note, if she isn't ready for something don't push it because it's on the timeline. 

Many people spend too long on groundwork without getting much of anything done. I personally spend anywhere from a few days to a few weeks on the ground before I am riding. The horses that take the least amount of time are the ones that don't have much handling. It's the retraining projects that buck, bolt, rear etc that take longer. A young horses doesn't need to know a whole lot about a lot in order to make a safe riding horse. As long as that horse knows a whole lot about a little, and those little things are important building blocks, you're set. 

You do NOT need to drill things. Go through your groundwork and if something is good, move on. 

I start with roundpenning. Can my horse move off a suggestion at a w/t/l? Can my horse change directions by turning into me? Can my horse draw in toward me? Can my horse disengage their hindquarters off my body language? If all of those things are working, I may only round pen for literally a couple of minutes. If something isn't working, work on it and don't worry about the time frame of your session. As long as you are keeping your horses attention, it's all good. 

Then, is my horse polite about being haltered? Will my horse stand still and be relaxed for desensitizing to noise, movement and sensation? Again, you don't need to use a whole lot of things to desensitize to. A lunge whip, plastic bag, a lead rope and a saddle blanket are about all I use. You are teaching your horse to relax to stimulus that isn't asking them to move. If everything is good, move on. Again, if something isn't working, fix it. 

Then, can my horse disengage their hindquarters off of pressure? Can my horse lunge at a w/t/l without putting any pressure on the halter? Can they disengage their hindquarters, move their shoulders over and go the opposite direction? Can they do a rollback on the lunge line? Can my horse flex laterally correctly? Will my horse back out of my space? Remain light when i'm leading and trot off in hand, not lag at a walk, etc. 

Then of course the normal handling things; can my horse tie, can I pick up my horses feet, etc?

When the groundwork is good, repeat it saddled. I honestly don't get my groundwork that great before I do it saddled. As soon as the horse is safe to be around, everything is done with a saddle on. If I was less experienced, i would do more. Many horses get their panties in a bunch the first few times they are saddled and seemingly 'forget' how to do things they know how to do. Because of this, I do most of my groundwork saddled. Lots of people will turn their horse loose while saddled to get them used to it. I do not, I want it to be crystal clear what is allowed and not while saddled. While under my supervision I can correct a horse is they buck while saddled, if they're loose I can't. I also don't have spare saddles laying around that I'm ok with a horse rolling in. 

When you get ready for those first rides, I highly recommend letting your instructor do it. A young horses movement is unbalanced and they need an extremely balanced rider to stay out of their way while they figure things out. I w/t/l my horses on their very first ride if they are relaxed enough for it. Forward is the most important thing, without forward motion you can't train a horse. 

For more in depth information on how to cue for things, I have dozens of posts regarding this information.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

jmike said:


> yes -- first filly (not sure why people say colt when colts are boys)


Colt has long been the generic term for a young, untrained horse. The other terms were only used when it was necessary to be gender specific.

I started my first colt without any "professionals" around. But I was an indestructible teenager with about 10 years in the saddle behind me.

Take your time, don't get hardheaded. Do remember, that, unlike then, there are usually pro trainers around if you need them.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

jmike said:


> you are most likely correct
> i will continue anyways


That is your choice to do so. 

Make sure you have good medical insurance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

RedOne said:


> These are some things to remember when training a horse.
> *apply pressure to the horse gradually when asking for something new never start asking with a lot of pressure always start with the slightest pressure than work your way up until the horse responds. You do not want to apply too much pressure so the horse ends up flipping their switch i.e. reacts out of either flight or fight
> 
> *Never reapply a cue if it results in bad behaviour instead redirect the horse's feet and then ask cue again
> ...


Thank you - that is good information.
i have had her for 14 months, so i am pretty familiar with her antics.
she is pushy and undisciplined.
fixing that is my primary goal.
i would like to get her to the point of being able to ride her as a long term goal


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

sarahfromsc said:


> Here are some thoughts:
> Can you back her one step at a time while she waits for the cue for the next step?
> Can you back her in a circle, both clockwise, and counter clockwise?
> Can you 'leg yield' from the ground both directions?
> ...


good thoughts and good considerations -- thank you

i am familiar with the cues from the saddle -- i am just not exactly sure how to translate those cues to the ground.

i would love to send her off for 30-60 days training -- i just can't afford it at the moment -- that might change in the next 3-6 months, it might not ...


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

BreakableRider said:


> I agree with the other posters that you are not anywhere near ready to be starting horses under saddle yet, but saying anything further on the subject is just beating a dead horse. I also disagree with young horses carrying a heavier rider that early on in their life, but again saying more would be pointless.
> 
> Don't give yourself a timeline, timelines are for people not horses. If she's doing well, end on a good note, if she isn't ready for something don't push it because it's on the timeline.
> 
> ...


thanks for the information and not beating a dead horse 

the timeline i have in my head is subject to change and depends on circumstances and progress

I agree with what you say on groundwork and some spending too much time on it -- for me -- my first goal is gaining respect and leadership -- my second goal is to get her in shape physically --- so i do not mind spending more time on the ground and being more patient with her progress


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## littlestars (Sep 23, 2014)

You said you still take lessons, are they at the barn your horses is at, and if not would it be possible to take your horse there every so often to ride in your lesson? (If your trainer is ok with that) 

Even though I have experience training horses, know what I need to teach, how to do it and when, I will still ride the green filly I'm working for my trainer in a lesson every so often especially if there is something I have a question about or isn't progressing nearly as fast as it should. He trusts me to train on my own, but that doesn't mean I know single every way to deal with every single problem.

I agree with those saying you are not ready, so if there is any way at all you can work with a professional even if it is only on occasion the that is the way to go. Every horse has different needs, and you will get better advice from a trainer who can see how your horse behaves and reacts to different methods than the internet. There's no set timeline, and a trainer can help you see when it is time to progress to the next step, when to change methods, and help you figure out what is best to do next.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

jmike said:


> good thoughts and good considerations -- thank you
> 
> i am familiar with the cues from the saddle -- i am just not exactly sure how to translate those cues to the ground.
> 
> i would love to send her off for 30-60 days training -- i just can't afford it at the moment -- that might change in the next 3-6 months, it might not ...


How do you cue her from the saddle when you wish to move her hind end, shoulders, and rib cage?


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Please note - your horse is not pushy and undisciplined. She hasn't made a choice to behave this way or another. She is just a young, untrained horse that does only what you allow her and is being what she is - a horse. Don't put labels on her, put training, patience and TIME in her, and she will turn out just fine. However, I do agree with the others here that you are in no way ready to start a youngster without professional help.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

"Here are some thoughts:
Can you back her one step at a time while she waits for the cue for the next step?
Can you back her in a circle, both clockwise, and counter clockwise?
Can you 'leg yield' from the ground both directions?
Can you move her shoulders over?
Can you move her hind end over?
Can you move her rib cage?

The first few rides are the most important, setting the foundation of her riding career for the rest of her life. I would recommend you have someone who knows how to ride put the first few rides on her."

My question is can you effectively, efficiently and correctly ask and receive these of a well trained horse? ( I ask this not for an answer for me but for you to answer for yourself) There are others that can be added to the list. These are all basic cues that you need as a rider and they need to be automatic. I think you have the patience and discipline to see it through but you need someone holding your hand through it the first time. Does that always happen - no but if you can accomplish the above repeatedly on a well trained mount consistently then your chances of success are higher. Everyone of us that has started a young horse had to start somewhere. Read, watch, ride. The more you do those things the better you will be prepared to work with a youngster.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

littlestars said:


> You said you still take lessons, are they at the barn your horses is at, and if not would it be possible to take your horse there every so often to ride in your lesson? (If your trainer is ok with that)
> 
> Even though I have experience training horses, know what I need to teach, how to do it and when, I will still ride the green filly I'm working for my trainer in a lesson every so often especially if there is something I have a question about or isn't progressing nearly as fast as it should. He trusts me to train on my own, but that doesn't mean I know single every way to deal with every single problem.
> 
> I agree with those saying you are not ready, so if there is any way at all you can work with a professional even if it is only on occasion the that is the way to go. Every horse has different needs, and you will get better advice from a trainer who can see how your horse behaves and reacts to different methods than the internet. There's no set timeline, and a trainer can help you see when it is time to progress to the next step, when to change methods, and help you figure out what is best to do next.


i don't have a horse trailer so my horses stay at my house


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

sarahfromsc said:


> How do you cue her from the saddle when you wish to move her hind end, shoulders, and rib cage?


leg pressure to move her rib cage -- the rest, i do not know


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Saranda said:


> Please note - your horse is not pushy and undisciplined. She hasn't made a choice to behave this way or another. She is just a young, untrained horse that does only what you allow her and is being what she is - a horse. Don't put labels on her, put training, patience and TIME in her, and she will turn out just fine. However, I do agree with the others here that you are in no way ready to start a youngster without professional help.


labels identify and define -- she is pushy and undisciplined because she is untrained

i am putting time into training her, and everyone here is telling me not to ...


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

QtrBel said:


> "Here are some thoughts:
> Can you back her one step at a time while she waits for the cue for the next step?
> Can you back her in a circle, both clockwise, and counter clockwise?
> Can you 'leg yield' from the ground both directions?
> ...


i am only familiar with the basics


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Definitely do not attempt bareback on a very green/unbroke horse. I'm not sure where that advice came from xD

Ground driving is a great suggestion, as it can prepare a horse for pressure and can even promote collection/suppleness. 

Minimal round-penning can help too--you can teach verbal cues at any age.  Just be careful, because that hard circle can be hard on joints that haven't closed yet. (Well, any joints, really... but those in particular)

I'm curious what your vet says about her joints? Just something to consider as you move forward. 

One of the best ways to learn to break a horse is to get hands on help. Are there any mobile trainers in your area? I think you and her would both benefit greatly from some hands-on help.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Zexious said:


> Definitely do not attempt bareback on a very green/unbroke horse. I'm not sure where that advice came from xD
> 
> Ground driving is a great suggestion, as it can prepare a horse for pressure and can even promote collection/suppleness.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the ground driving advice, this is something i will definitely look into.
I am still working on getting her to recognize my cues, and she has them mostly down.
She still gets distracted looking towards her buddies instead of paying attention to me.
I don't have a round-pen - so i am using a 35 foot lunge line.
We spend most of our lunging at a walk/trot
I am not a fan of working a horse just to work her, although i do want to get her in shape.

I tried to give her away to my farrier at some point, but he just never got around to picking her up.
I would like some hands on help, but i just don't have anyone available and i can't afford to send her away. 
I am basically just doing what i can, and i am taking my time doing it.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

jmike said:


> leg pressure to move her rib cage -- the rest, i do not know


This is just one more reason why you are not ready to start a horse by yourself, because you cannot even execute basic maneuvars on a trained horse, because you don't know how. (....it's not a bad thing you don't know how, as everyone has to start somewhere... but these are things you should be readily familiar and experienced with, if you expect to train a young horse from the ground up)

If you don't know how to ask a trained horse to move their body, how do you expect to teach it to a horse who has never had anyone on their back?

That's like someone who has never driven a car before, trying to teach someone else how to drive a car. 


I shouldn't even be offering any advice as I seriously_ worry_ for your _safety _with this filly......

Think of splitting a horse into 3 parts. The front (shoulders), middle (rib cage) and back (hindquarters). You can do ground work to control each of these pieces, and then that groundwork will carry over into the saddle.

Your filly should keep her attention on you at all times. Of course, don't give her a 3-hour-long session, but if you work with her for 15 minutes, she should be thinking about only YOU for 15 minutes. 

I find the hindquarters are the easiest to move. Take your lunge whip (or stick) and tap her hip. The goal is that you want her to take one small step away from you, and ideally the hind leg closest to you should cross over in front of the hind leg farthest from you. Slowly start tapping harder if she does not give you a correct response, and do not stop asking until you get the right response. But TIMING is important. You must stop asking the instant she does it right, and remove the pressure. (This is the crucial part that you need a trainer to show you what timing is right, and what timing is wrong.) Remove the pressure too soon, and the horse learns it doesn't have to do what you are asking. Remove the pressure too late, and the horse has no clue what the right response was. 

Always work both sides of the horse, and only expect small baby steps in the beginning. 

You do the same to move the shoulders away from you, and the ribcage. You just tap the area of the body that you want to move. 

Your end goal is that you simply "glare" with your body language at the body part you want to move, and the horse is paying attention to you and does it. 

When you finally get in the saddle, they clearly understand to move away from pressure. So to move the shoulders, you move your leg forward about 4 to 6 inches (exaggerate your movements in the beginning) and ask them to move away from pressure. Keep your leg center to control the ribcage. And move your leg back to control the hindquarters. 

I strongly advise you to learn how to properly use your legs on a TRAINED horse before you attempt it on a green one that has ZERO CLUE. You claim you now have a steady lower leg, but you didn't less than 4 or 5 months ago. These are basic things that just take time and practice to learn, and you don't want to be "testing" it when on an unbroke horse.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

beau159 said:


> I shouldn't even be offering any advice as I seriously_ worry_ for your _safety _with this filly......
> 
> Think of splitting a horse into 3 parts. The front (shoulders), middle (rib cage) and back (hindquarters). You can do ground work to control each of these pieces, and then that groundwork will carry over into the saddle.
> 
> ...


i wouldn't worry about my safety - i have been warned, and have stated that i will continue anyways -- my safety is my concern and no one elses

thank you for setting that aside to offer advice.

i can move her hindquarters easily from the ground, i point and she moves
i don't know how that is supposed to translate into leg pressure while mounted

i do have issues with attention span, she wants to be with the rest of the herd and it distracts her

i am familiar with timing, pressure/release, and parelli's porcupine games to move the body parts

thank you for identifying the distance to move my leg to get them to move shoulder ... 4-6 inches ... is that just to teach them in the beginning? what kind of distance do you try to achieve as an end-result?

at what point do you introduce pressure where your legs would be to get the parts to move from the ground? ... i.e. whip handle pressed 4-6 inches behind a nuetral leg position to move the hindquarters?

my goal is to get most of that nailed down before i get on her

thanks again for your detailed response


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I've been watching this thread but haven't commented yet. 

You have to remember that with young horses, their attention span is short. You have to work on building that. It is normal for her to look away for her buddies. 

As for where to cue for moving her front or rear, I don't worry so much on the ground until I can put a saddle on. When you saddle her, use your stirrups to find where to put pressure on her. No sense in teaching her on the ground with pressure on a spot that your foot won't reach.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

What I see most often with youngsters that are trained by firsttimers that have time and patience and a willingness to learn but no hands on help is a horse that responds to one riders cues - the rider that trained them. Not necessarily a bad thing if the horse stays with you and you are the one that continues to ride. It only becomes a problem if she is sold and they new rider does not ride exactly the same as chances are your cues will not match perfectly what is standard. It can mean problems for the new pair and retraining on the horses part. She seems to be a forgiving horse and if handled correctly even if sold could transition fine. Just keep this in mind as you move forward. Ground driving incorrectly can also create issues and it is a good idea to learn from someone hands on, on a trained horse. Not always possible and you do the best you can with what you have. Watch and try to pick up the basics best you can. I have found trying to train a person on an untrained horse an issue.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

usandpets said:


> I've been watching this thread but haven't commented yet.
> 
> You have to remember that with young horses, their attention span is short. You have to work on building that. It is normal for her to look away for her buddies.
> 
> ...


thanks, you usually give me good advice 
seems to me that some are advocating that i get that sort of control from the ground
or maybe i am misunderstanding
i do work her with a saddle and a bit, but not all the time




QtrBel said:


> What I see most often with youngsters that are trained by firsttimers that have time and patience and a willingness to learn but no hands on help is a horse that responds to one riders cues - the rider that trained them. Not necessarily a bad thing if the horse stays with you and you are the one that continues to ride. It only becomes a problem if she is sold and they new rider does not ride exactly the same as chances are your cues will not match perfectly what is standard. It can mean problems for the new pair and retraining on the horses part. She seems to be a forgiving horse and if handled correctly even if sold could transition fine. Just keep this in mind as you move forward. Ground driving incorrectly can also create issues and it is a good idea to learn from someone hands on, on a trained horse. Not always possible and you do the best you can with what you have. Watch and try to pick up the basics best you can. I have found trying to train a person on an untrained horse an issue.


also very good advice, and another one of the reasons i am asking on the forums
i would like to keep it as standard as i can
i can't teach something i don't know
so i am sticking to the extreme basics 
I understand the concepts of teaching (pressure, release, timing, purpose)
i just don't know the steps and details


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

if you guys are interested i can do a log ... let me know


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

We can't really convey the proper training technique as it applies to an individual pair over the internet. We can give general guidelines and some have but we can't judge pressure, release, timing and purpose without being there to see both of you and the response you generate. Ask your trainer if you are competent in his/her opinion of the very basics with a trained mount. Ask if he/she thinks they are automatic for you at this point. If they are then you should be fine with those basics. Does she (the filly) respond immediately or does she have to think about it? Does she give an indication she is confused, concerned or getting aggravated? If she responds to your cues in a positive manner quickly and obediently you are getting your point across. If she is confused time to stop and go to your lessons with this in mind. If she is concerned then ask ask why. Is it lack of attention, more focus on what is going on around her and less on you then time to stop (on a good note) and ask if she is ready mentally for this. If she is aggravated then time to have someone evaluate you both separately. The confusion can be part of the process but should not last.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

QtrBel said:


> We can't really convey the proper training technique as it applies to an individual pair over the internet. We can give general guidelines and some have but we can't judge pressure, release, timing and purpose without being there to see both of you and the response you generate. Ask your trainer if you are competent in his/her opinion of the very basics with a trained mount. Ask if he/she thinks they are automatic for you at this point. If they are then you should be fine with those basics. Does she (the filly) respond immediately or does she have to think about it? Does she give an indication she is confused, concerned or getting aggravated? If she responds to your cues in a positive manner quickly and obediently you are getting your point across. If she is confused time to stop and go to your lessons with this in mind. If she is concerned then ask ask why. Is it lack of attention, more focus on what is going on around her and less on you then time to stop (on a good note) and ask if she is ready mentally for this. If she is aggravated then time to have someone evaluate you both separately. The confusion can be part of the process but should not last.


i will ask. she is generally straightforward with my progress
instead of asking how i did, i always ask what i can improve on (that helps)

we were just talking about that in our last lesson
she said she can tell some of the things we are working on are becoming more automatic and i have too think less about them. other things i still have to think about, and even some other things i need to really think about but don't always work (legs at a trot *was* one of those issues).

depends on what i am asking. if i am asking to move her hip, she does it without hesitation - if i am asking her to move her shoulder to the left or the right before getting her moving - she has to think about it -- if i am asking her to back up, she has to think longer

backing up, sometimes she acts confused -- 3 months ago, i could back her up for 20-30 yards without issues -- on Saturday, i had trouble backing her up 4-5 steps

Once in a while she will get aggravated, and then she will get flashy -- that has not happened in a while though -- of course, i haven't touched her in 3 months


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

jmike said:


> thanks, you usually give me good advice
> seems to me that some are advocating that i get that sort of control from the ground
> or maybe i am misunderstanding
> i do work her with a saddle and a bit, but not all the time


 Maybe my post wasn't clear. I meant that once you have a saddle on her and you're still on the ground, you can use the stirrups to teach her where pressure back means to move butt over and pressure forward is to move front over. I use the stirrup itself. I'll move it back and press against the side, bump a little if no response, and then while bumping, smack their rump with my other hand if still no response. Kind of hard to explain and maybe visualize in words. Same with the front. Move the stirrup forward, press, bump and then smack the neck if needed. That's where the groundwork without the saddle comes in. They should already know pressure on the butt or neck means to move that part over. 




jmike said:


> also very good advice, and another one of the reasons i am asking on the forums
> i would like to keep it as standard as i can
> i can't teach something i don't know
> so i am sticking to the extreme basics
> ...


I don't know what you've used so far to learn how to work with horses. When I started, I watched as many shows as I could on RFDTV and vids on YouTube. I also read many books and magazines. My favorite trainer is Clinton Anderson. You could subscribe to his website for $20 a month and watch as many of his videos as you want. The best would be to have someone in person to guide and correct you though. 

Just remember that when a horse is learning something new, don't expect perfection right away. Once they get the concept, then you practice on the perfection.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Personally I don't tap the hip to move the hindend. My heel is no where near the hip. When you have the saddle on her take the stirrup and move it back a bit and use pressure from the stirrup. Release when she complies.

If you use the whip at the hip, use a stick or crop while riding and cue with the leg first followed by the tap on the hip from the stick or crop. She'll get it eventually.

When training your filly, remember when you control her feet, you control her mind. Hence moving her body where and when you want and she complies, before throwing a leg over.

Once in the saddle you should know the feeling of each hoof moving/ landing.

I'm not advocating you don't try. I'm advocation educating yourself first. And keeping the lessons short for her and you. She is in kindergarten, therefore has the attention span of six year old.

One other thought: It sounds as if you have thought of selling her. I would rather buy an unbroken horse versus one that is trained poorly. She may be easier to sell as untrained versus questionably trained.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

QtrBel said:


> What I see most often with youngsters that are trained by firsttimers that have time and patience and a willingness to learn but no hands on help is a horse that responds to one riders cues - the rider that trained them. Not necessarily a bad thing if the horse stays with you and you are the one that continues to ride. It only becomes a problem if she is sold and they new rider does not ride exactly the same as chances are your cues will not match perfectly what is standard. It can mean problems for the new pair and retraining on the horses part. She seems to be a forgiving horse and if handled correctly even if sold could transition fine. Just keep this in mind as you move forward. Ground driving incorrectly can also create issues and it is a good idea to learn from someone hands on, on a trained horse. Not always possible and you do the best you can with what you have. Watch and try to pick up the basics best you can. I have found trying to train a person on an untrained horse an issue.


I will disagree with this to a point. The basics are the basics, stopping, turning, forward and backing up, no matter western or English, barrel racing or endurance, dressage or trail riding. When the training goes more advanced, there can be problems. 

Where I do agree is that even different professional trainers will use different cues. Even in the same discipline. I'm not a professional myself but I have worked with some so called "finished" horses that didn't know how to sidepass or even flex at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

usandpets said:


> Maybe my post wasn't clear. I meant that once you have a saddle on her and you're still on the ground, you can use the stirrups to teach her where pressure back means to move butt over and pressure forward is to move front over. I use the stirrup itself. I'll move it back and press against the side, bump a little if no response, and then while bumping, smack their rump with my other hand if still no response. Kind of hard to explain and maybe visualize in words. Same with the front. Move the stirrup forward, press, bump and then smack the neck if needed. That's where the groundwork without the saddle comes in. They should already know pressure on the butt or neck means to move that part over.


i understand what you are saying and now understand what others are saying -- thanks 




usandpets said:


> I don't know what you've used so far to learn how to work with horses. When I started, I watched as many shows as I could on RFDTV and vids on YouTube. I also read many books and magazines. My favorite trainer is Clinton Anderson. You could subscribe to his website for $20 a month and watch as many of his videos as you want. The best would be to have someone in person to guide and correct you though.
> 
> Just remember that when a horse is learning something new, don't expect perfection right away. Once they get the concept, then you practice on the perfection.
> _Posted via Mobile Device _


i am using Cherry Hill's 101 groundwork exercises, i have CA's lunging for respect and colt starting series, I have some Parelli DVD's, i watch a lot of youtube videos (expecially eXhorses), and Storey's Guide to Training Horses.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

sarahfromsc said:


> Personally I don't tap the hip to move the hindend. My heel is no where near the hip. When you have the saddle on her take the stirrup and move it back a bit and use pressure from the stirrup. Release when she complies.
> 
> If you use the whip at the hip, use a stick or crop while riding and cue with the leg first followed by the tap on the hip from the stick or crop. She'll get it eventually.
> 
> ...


not looking to sell her, but i am ok with giving her away to a good home
i am not in it for money, and would flat out refuse to send her to a crappy home

if i take the time and get her rideable, she stays


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

sarahfromsc said:


> Personally I don't tap the hip to move the hindend.


That helps prove my other point about disagreeing on cues. Even with groundwork, there is no set standard for cues to working with horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Usandpets I should have been more clear. Yes the basics are the basics but as a new trainer and new rider does he have the basics down in a manner that is consistent with the rest of us. This is just a made up example of an extreme nature but say I teach my horse to go forward by tapping her on the head between the ears because I didn't realize there was another way and I once saw someone get a horse to move that way. If you bought my horse and tried to get her to move forward by any other means and she exploded where does the fault lie? In my experience riding horses that have been trained by self taught riders that become trainers the obvious isn't always so obvious and I have had to ask to watch them ride or drive and see what their cues are sometimes. They aren't what you would think more times than not. He is taking lessons so if his application is consistent and automatic he shouldn't have a problem but when you are new and unsure and you haven't gotten that much ride time under your belt with no one to watch I would ask, are his cues correct (standard), correctly applied, as well as consistently applied. Since I am not there and I know from his posts he is new to riding as well as training I pointed that out as something for him to consider if he is looking to eventually sell her. I prefer an unhandled horse of any age than one that has been handled by someone that may not know what they are doing. I also said this was my experience. Yours sounds like it has been different.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Maybe I am missing something? Is it that there are different ways to accomplish the basics and get the same result? Or that there are standard cues. Perhaps I should have said basic cues that are similar enough that the meaning is not mistaken in the translation to the horse? I should have also added primarily self taught riders transitioning to trainers.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

You are right QtrBel. There should be basic or standard cues for the basics. For me, right rein to turn right, left rein to turn left, both reins to stop or backup, and squeeze both legs for forward. After that, anything else is what I start considering advanced. 

I had one person that wanted me to start his horse but he wanted me to train to turn by using the inside leg. Left turn was left rein and left leg. Right was the right rein and right leg. I told him that I would get the horse ride able with the basics and he could train the horse that way if he wanted. I assumed that he was told that gets the horse to bend for the turn. 

One of the horses we got from a friend had different cues for walk, trot and lope. One bump for walk, two for trot, and three for lope. I had to go back and get the horse the way I wanted. Squeeze to increase speed. Granted that those may be the cues for a show horse or not, I don't know because we don't show. I wanted the horse to respond to my cues while trail riding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

usandpets said:


> You are right QtrBel. There should be basic or standard cues for the basics. For me, right rein to turn right, left rein to turn left, both reins to stop or backup, and squeeze both legs for forward. After that, anything else is what I start considering advanced.


i started laying the outside rein across the neck before engaging the inside rein for turns

for me a left turn =
right rein (outside) across the neck + squeeze right leg (outside)
then pull left rein (inside)

unless i want some bend in the turn (only happens when the trainer tells me to get some bend) -- then i squeeze left leg (inside)




usandpets said:


> I had one person that wanted me to start his horse but he wanted me to train to turn by using the inside leg. Left turn was left rein and left leg. Right was the right rein and right leg. I told him that I would get the horse ride able with the basics and he could train the horse that way if he wanted. I assumed that he was told that gets the horse to bend for the turn.
> 
> One of the horses we got from a friend had different cues for walk, trot and lope. One bump for walk, two for trot, and three for lope. I had to go back and get the horse the way I wanted. Squeeze to increase speed. Granted that those may be the cues for a show horse or not, I don't know because we don't show. I wanted the horse to respond to my cues while trail riding.
> _Posted via Mobile Device _


see - i have been doing the exact opposite of that 
i would squeeze and suck myself into the saddle to slow down


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Everyone has to start somewhere! Just pick the cue you want her to have a specific response to, and repeat until she does it, and immediately quit and reward. If you are asking for forward motion, do whatever it takes to get that, then be still and let it happen. I usually carry a crop with the young ones, for encouragement. 

Always LOOK where you want to go, and they will follow your body eventually. If you feel frustration coming on, find a good response, and quit. If they even ACT like they are going to buck, I get off and lunge, then try again. I have never had a horse "take advantage" of this. I am old and do not like pain.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Since you are going ahead, you might try "_Modern Horseman's Countdown to Broke_":

The Modern Horseman's Countdown to Broke: Real Do-It-Yourself Horse Training in 33 Comprehensive Steps: Sean Patrick, Dr. Robert M. Miller: 9781570764196: Amazon.com: Books

250+ pages with good advice and a sequential approach, including pictures - a lot more info that the Internet will provide.

You might also try "_Horse Control: The Young Horse_" by Tom Roberts:

http://www.amazon.com/Horse-control...sr=8-1&keywords=horse+control+the+young+horse


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

bsms said:


> Since you are going ahead, you might try "_Modern Horseman's Countdown to Broke_":
> 
> The Modern Horseman's Countdown to Broke: Real Do-It-Yourself Horse Training in 33 Comprehensive Steps: Sean Patrick, Dr. Robert M. Miller: 9781570764196: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> ...


thanks bsms -- that first one looks like exactly what i need.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jmike said:


> i wouldn't worry about my safety - i have been warned, and have stated that i will continue anyways -- my safety is my concern and no one elses


Totally agree that your safety is your concern, do what you like from that pint of view.

My concern is the horse, and a large novice unbalanced rider has no business starting a colt, the potential to for all sorts of damage is vast.

The me of a few years ago did not realise this, the me of now sold my filly during the summer because she deserved a better chance in life than being started by a large novice unbalanced rider.

It s a very selfish attitude that you have there, I hope you reconsider


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> Totally agree that your safety is your concern, do what you like from that pint of view.
> 
> My concern is the horse, and a large novice unbalanced rider has no business starting a colt, the potential to for all sorts of damage is vast.
> 
> ...


if i could give her away, i would
but i have other safety concerns not mentioned
those safety concerns take precedence over the horses safety
and that is all i will say on that

if anyone else has a concern, they can feel free to keep those concerns to themselves and not post -- if they just can't help themselves and must post, i will just ignore them from now on 

those who are willing to offer useful advice are highly encouraged to offer that useful advice


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Well that attitude says so much, please don't share you genuine concerns because I am going to stick my fingers in my ears and not listen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

OP, I can't say I agree with what you are doing but I wish you the best of luck. And I do sincerely hope you do not plan on selling her unless you get much more experienced in the years and retrain her. I think that if this is going to be a project horse for you, you should keep her. I wouldn't even give her away.

As someone who once bought a horse from a 'backyard trainer', I quickly realized how important good, solid training is. That mare knew nothing besides forward, backup, and turn and even these things were iffy at times. She didn't know how to give to the bit, had no idea what inside or outside leg meant, and was just a generally confused horse when I tried to get her retrained. Not to mention her handler wasn't trained enough so she had some horrible habits as well. I bought a horse who was sold to me as dead broke in the eyes of the trainer, because that horse knew as much as the trainer did and ended up with a huge project that I wasn't ready to take on. I learned a lot from this horse, but it was not a situation I would get into again.

I ended up selling her within the few short months that I had her, AFTER taking on the financial and emotional responsibility to get her as properly re-trained as I could. I didn't want to pass her on to someone without doing this first.

You won't be doing this horse ANY good by selling her or even rehoming her. She will probably spend her entire life being sold and resold because she isn't a quality horse.

Again, I wish you luck because I don't want the horse being in a situation like that - and as a person who purchased a horse like this once I wouldn't want anyone else buying a 'broke' horse who barely knows the basics.



jmike said:


> if i could give her away, i would
> but i have other safety concerns not mentioned
> those safety concerns take precedence over the horses safety
> and that is all i will say on that
> ...


Then don't come onto a PUBLIC FORUM. You are asking people for advice and so far the best advice has been what you don't want to hear... Maybe you should take that into consideration. You can't tell people not to post here because you don't like their answers.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

jmike said:


> i started laying the outside rein across the neck before engaging the inside rein for turns
> 
> for me a left turn =
> right rein (outside) across the neck + squeeze right leg (outside)
> ...


Just like said before, there are no set standards or rules with training horses each person can used different methods. 

To me, what you are doing with turning and stopping is like teaching a baby to walk or ride a bike before they learn to crawl. I like to keep things simple at first and then get the cues that I want. neck reining and stopping with your seat may be the end goal, but you need to take small steps to get there and not big leaps.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

usandpets said:


> To me, what you are doing with turning and stopping is like teaching a baby to walk or ride a bike before they learn to crawl. I like to keep things simple at first and then get the cues that I want. neck reining and stopping with your seat may be the end goal, but you need to take small steps to get there and not big leaps.


I think the OP is referring to the aids he uses for his adult riding horse. The filly in question isn't backed yet. 

I do feel slightly worried about the way you describe your aids, OP. It sounds as if you still have to think about what to do with your legs/seat/hands to achieve the desired response. Your aids for forward/lateral/backward movement need to be reflex actions before you are ready to start a young horse, IMO. If that is already the case with you, forgive me- it's just your words give me the impression that riding is a 'cerebral' activity for you, it's not instinctive yet. Nothing bad about that, but it means you need to gain a ton more hours in the saddle before you're ready to teach. 



jmike said:


> see - i have been doing the exact opposite of that
> i would squeeze and suck myself into the saddle to slow down



By the way, I hold the horse between my legs and seat to slow down too.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Bondre said:


> I think the OP is referring to the aids he uses for his adult riding horse. The filly in question isn't backed yet.


In the first post, he has been on the filly already. The thread is about teaching the filly the cues. You don't want to try and teach her to indirect rein before she knows how to direct rein. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

usandpets said:


> In the first post, he has been on the filly already. The thread is about teaching the filly the cues. You don't want to try and teach her to indirect rein before she knows how to direct rein.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oops, you're right there. I had somehow gathered the impression he was working towards backing her.

OP, seeing as your filly is only 2 1/2 yo, I don't know what the hurry is to start riding her. Have you thought about what your future plans are for this filly? From your comments about giving her away, it doesn't sound that you are committed to, or interested in, keeping her long-term. I think this is an important factor in the situation.

Having followed this thread since you started it, I have been searching for a positive way to express my negative gut reaction, and Willow Nightwind helped me clarify my thoughts with her post on the badly-started horse she was sold. I think that in general, it's best to leave starring young horses to the professionals, who know how to do a good job... UNLESS the horse is your personal horse that you are going to keep and work on over time. There's nothing more satisfying for a recreational horse-person than starting their own horse and evolving together. The training will doubtless take longer than a professional, and may well have holes, but the owner/trainer will fix them as they come up because they are committed to the horse.

I say this thinking of myself. I started my 3 1/2 yo last year. She was the first horse I have ever started. I haven't spent my life around horses, but I rode a lot as a teenager, and my riding is instinctive. The horses I rode as a youngster were mostly hunter-jumpers that had been well-started. Riding them and starting a green horse are two entirely different ball-games. But anyway, my filly is going great, we are taking things slow but we are both happy, which is the most important thing. And she is my forever horse, so any mistakes are my own problem and my own business to fix.

Returning to the same hypothetical recrrational horse-person, what happens if they decide to start youngsters to sell on, like the chap who sold Willow Nightwind her horse? You get a badly-trained green horse who's best hope in life is that a trainer will pick it up as a project horse, or at worst changes hands continually and ends up in an auction.

Spoilt youngsters are bad news. I am also trying to retrain a young greenbroke mare that I bought cheap because I was sorry for her, badly-started by a local boy. This is much harder than training my filly. She has a whole load of bad habits and mental baggage to clean out. When I first got her I had no idea in the amount of work needed to restart a spoilt horse - if I had known I wouldn't have gone near her, but she is my responsibility now and I'm doing my best with her.

My point in all this (it's turned out a bit long, sorry) is that if you're not planning on keeping the filly, what's the hurry to start her? (Yes, I am with everyone else on this and just don't think you're ready to be training her.) Teach her to lead properly, flex, move laterally, stand tied, pick feet, desensitize her to water, and so on, but stay off her back for the time being. Keep taking lessons and gaining experience, and in a year's time think about backing her with guidance from your teacher. 

Please don't experiment with her and spoil her, unless you're willing to send her for retraining after if necessary.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Your safety may be your own concern, but you are a family man. Do not be so selfish.

Do this right the first time. Get instruction. Either that, or wait till she is so screwed up under saddle and pay MORE for instruction to fix it. Your choice, but I know that even with years experience, and the opportunity to work with all kinds of horses I needed help when I had a very easy and forward thinking youngster.

You have had her for 14 months, and she is still undisciplined. That is COMPLETELY unacceptable. You also cannot expect a young horse to learn something, sit in a field for months and then be able to do the same thing. You either didn't teach her correctly, or you are asking far too much.

There is no shame in asking for help, and no one on the internet can teach you. Get a trainer who will help you. Youngsters are not like riding a balanced, educated horse. It is SO easy to get wrong and so hard to fix it. Once you've learnt the skills, you will have them for life. But don't endanger your life because you're being bull headed, or ruin a young horse's education because you think you can read everything online.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

WillowNightwind said:


> OP, I can't say I agree with what you are doing but I wish you the best of luck. And I do sincerely hope you do not plan on selling her unless you get much more experienced in the years and retrain her. I think that if this is going to be a project horse for you, you should keep her. I wouldn't even give her away.
> 
> As someone who once bought a horse from a 'backyard trainer', I quickly realized how important good, solid training is. That mare knew nothing besides forward, backup, and turn and even these things were iffy at times. She didn't know how to give to the bit, had no idea what inside or outside leg meant, and was just a generally confused horse when I tried to get her retrained. Not to mention her handler wasn't trained enough so she had some horrible habits as well. I bought a horse who was sold to me as dead broke in the eyes of the trainer, because that horse knew as much as the trainer did and ended up with a huge project that I wasn't ready to take on. I learned a lot from this horse, but it was not a situation I would get into again.
> 
> ...


the reasons you listed above are exactly why i will not sell her on craigslist or anything like that

i would give her away to someone who knows how to train horses

My farrier was interested in her, but has not found the time to come pick her up in 2 months -- so i am stuck doing what i can with her


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

usandpets said:


> Just like said before, there are no set standards or rules with training horses each person can used different methods.
> 
> To me, what you are doing with turning and stopping is like teaching a baby to walk or ride a bike before they learn to crawl. I like to keep things simple at first and then get the cues that I want. neck reining and stopping with your seat may be the end goal, but you need to take small steps to get there and not big leaps.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ohh, those i use on my daughters horse -- i do not ride this horse yet.
I have been on her 2-3 times for 15-30 minutes each -- but i completely agree, i would not want to confuse the horse and want to keep it as simple as i can

i would rather have a horse that can do the simple things well than a horse than can do everything but not very well


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Bondre said:


> I think the OP is referring to the aids he uses for his adult riding horse. The filly in question isn't backed yet.
> 
> I do feel slightly worried about the way you describe your aids, OP. It sounds as if you still have to think about what to do with your legs/seat/hands to achieve the desired response. Your aids for forward/lateral/backward movement need to be reflex actions before you are ready to start a young horse, IMO. If that is already the case with you, forgive me- it's just your words give me the impression that riding is a 'cerebral' activity for you, it's not instinctive yet. Nothing bad about that, but it means you need to gain a ton more hours in the saddle before you're ready to teach.
> 
> ...


no apologies necessary -- you are correct -- i do have to think about them
i have backed this horse 2-3 times
i do need a lot more experience in the saddle - no doubt

but this thread took a turn in a direction i did not mean it to
my original intent was to find out what it takes to get her physically ready


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Bondre said:


> Oops, you're right there. I had somehow gathered the impression he was working towards backing her.
> 
> OP, seeing as your filly is only 2 1/2 yo, I don't know what the hurry is to start riding her. Have you thought about what your future plans are for this filly? From your comments about giving her away, it doesn't sound that you are committed to, or interested in, keeping her long-term. I think this is an important factor in the situation.
> 
> Having followed this thread since you started it, I have been searching for a positive way to express my negative gut reaction, and Willow Nightwind helped me clarify my thoughts with her post on the badly-started horse she was sold. I think that in general, it's best to leave starring young horses to the professionals, who know how to do a good job... UNLESS the horse is your personal horse that you are going to keep and work on over time. There's nothing more satisfying for a recreational horse-person than starting their own horse and evolving together. The training will doubtless take longer than a professional, and may well have holes, but the owner/trainer will fix them as they come up because they are committed to the horse.


right now i would rather give her away than attempt to do something that i am obviosly not qualified to do -- but i am not willing to sell her to anyone i don't know -- because i do not want her sold and resold ect.

so i am commited in the sense that she is currently my responsibility, and part of that responsibility to to either train her or give her to someone that is qualified to train her



Bondre said:


> I say this thinking of myself. I started my 3 1/2 yo last year. She was the first horse I have ever started. I haven't spent my life around horses, but I rode a lot as a teenager, and my riding is instinctive. The horses I rode as a youngster were mostly hunter-jumpers that had been well-started. Riding them and starting a green horse are two entirely different ball-games. But anyway, my filly is going great, we are taking things slow but we are both happy, which is the most important thing. And she is my forever horse, so any mistakes are my own problem and my own business to fix.


if i do get to the point where she is safe to ride, she will always be my horse and will never go anywhere
but that is a big *IF



Bondre said:


> Returning to the same hypothetical recrrational horse-person, what happens if they decide to start youngsters to sell on, like the chap who sold Willow Nightwind her horse? You get a badly-trained green horse who's best hope in life is that a trainer will pick it up as a project horse, or at worst changes hands continually and ends up in an auction.


i would never consider this a potential money making opportunity
that would be irresponsible of me



Bondre said:


> Spoilt youngsters are bad news. I am also trying to retrain a young greenbroke mare that I bought cheap because I was sorry for her, badly-started by a local boy. This is much harder than training my filly. She has a whole load of bad habits and mental baggage to clean out. When I first got her I had no idea in the amount of work needed to restart a spoilt horse - if I had known I wouldn't have gone near her, but she is my responsibility now and I'm doing my best with her.


see .. i completely respect that
mine is also my responsibility
i can only do my best with what i have



Bondre said:


> My point in all this (it's turned out a bit long, sorry) is that if you're not planning on keeping the filly, what's the hurry to start her? (Yes, I am with everyone else on this and just don't think you're ready to be training her.) Teach her to lead properly, flex, move laterally, stand tied, pick feet, desensitize her to water, and so on, but stay off her back for the time being. Keep taking lessons and gaining experience, and in a year's time think about backing her with guidance from your teacher.
> 
> Please don't experiment with her and spoil her, unless you're willing to send her for retraining after if necessary.


if it comes to the point where i believe she needs to be retrained and i can afford to send her for a month or two, i will do that

right now, she is pushy and dangerous
if i don't have an end goal that will lead to spending more time with her, i probably will not follow through
so, the end goal is to ride her regularly
to get there, i need to work her on the ground 
i have been working her consistently for 2 weeks
4 hours last week and so far, 2 hours this week (will get 2 more in)

I put down 2 months to finish groundwork as the initial goal 
i won't shorten it, but i might lengthen it
i am not in a rush, it takes as long as it takes


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## jamesdean57 (Feb 2, 2013)

Another thing that I used to train my filly is GiddyUpFlix.com: Horse DVD Rentals | Horse Training Dvd | Horse Dvds | Rent Horse Videos it only
cost 11 dollars a month to rent training videos.

Ken McNabb, Craig Cameron, and Kerry Kuhn are very good for helping a 
inexperienced rider.

I hope this helps and good luck with your horse, I hope she turns out as good 
as mine did.


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## akruby (Oct 25, 2014)

jmike said:


> i started laying the outside rein across the neck before engaging the inside rein for turns
> 
> for me a left turn =
> right rein (outside) across the neck + squeeze right leg (outside)
> ...


In my experience and understanding, this sort of rein cue is a more advanced cue, and therefore not as developmentally appropriate for a young horse first learning to turn. Indirect reining takes multiple, well timed steps in order to teach a young horse how to achieve release. Direct reining, is in my opinion, a better first step for a young horse. 

Horse receives pressure (pull) from rein. Horse turns head toward pull. Horse achieves release (reward). When going under saddle and adding forward movement (a separate lesson than the head turning lesson), you achieve a turn. 

Young horses not only have no attention span, but have no background knowledge to put together the complexity of an indirect rein without multiple opportunities for confusion. There is a reason that green horses are allowed to be ridden two handed in show.

I would focus on very short lessons with a single, small, goal in mind each time. Two, 10-15 minute sessions in a day with small successes would be better, in my opinion, than a 20-30 minute session. This will allow you to review a learned few learned skills (proper catching, grooming, tacking, leading...depending on the goal skill). You will then have a few minutes to introduce a new skill, (the head turn, for example), and then (with well timed release), achieve a few quick successes, and put horse and rider away happy and stimulated, excited for the next session. The brain craves novelty, so successful interactions with small lessons will make for a more positive experience. 

At your horse's age, there is so much teaching you can do from the ground... for much longer than the next two months. I understand that you want to start under saddle in a couple of months. Just think about the percentages. Spend a much higher percentage of the time you are teaching your filly on ground work (both for manners and for saddle work preparation and reinforcement). If I were to throw a number out there, I would maybe say 80% of the interactions with your horse for the next 12 months at least, should be focused on from the ground. That other 20% of the time I would spend working on extremely basic under saddle cues (forward, stop, left, right). I would spend my time with my lesson instructor becoming more schooled before attempting to have more time under saddle with my own horse. Going slowly like this will allow your horse more time to grow, to slowly build the muscles needed to carry you, and you to ask your instructor questions as you think of them when working with your filly.

My horse is the same age as yours. I purchased him at 6 mos. He will be the third horse that I have trained in a little over 20 years of riding. My first was after about 10 years with horses, and I know a lot more now than I did then. Even now, I am getting ready to start taking lessons again, while I wait for my gelding to grow and fill out more. During the lessons, I will be sprucing up my riding cues so that I am more precise when I go to teach my guy. In the mean time, we have so much ground work that we can practice to prepare him to be a better riding horse from day one in the saddle. I will probable do basic under saddle work in about a year and then increase the percentage of time under saddle about a year after that. Well cared for horses can live for a very long time. I always tell myself, 'What's the rush?'. If I want to ride, there are plenty of people I can pay (and friends that I don't have to) in order to ride. I want to be able to move slowly and deliberately in the training of my horse, so that we both get to enjoy the process. I have every expectation that I will begin following a couple of different disciplines by the time he is six or so. That is my personal philosophy though. 

I am a teacher by profession. I will leave you with this general advice. Set up both yourself and your horse for success each and every time you interact. Do this by always having a clear plan, a very small goal that the horse can understand, a clear picture of what you expect to see/feel as a success, a plan to communicate that success to your horse, or a reasonable way to correct the horse when she does not understand.

Good luck.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I have not read all the post, sorry. But, if you are considering selling/giving her away, and feel you do not possess the skill to do right by her w respect to starting her under saddle, then there are a lot of other things to achieve, which you may have already done? Standing nicely when she is saddled, picking up her feet, blanketing, loading, behaving in hand, standing tied, etc., etc., etc.,. If she is an old hand at all such "things", she will be more pleasant to start under saddle regardless of by whom she is started. But, even if she is just one of those "special babies" that never resists and always tries to comply, it would still be doing her an injustice for someone w/o experience to tackle her under saddle training. 

As far as starting a young horse under saddle - if a rider is light and the youngster is well developed - riding them for short periods of time is not going to adversely impact their musculoskeletal development, IMO. Riding one 5-6 times a week long durations - that changes the game.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Being sold and resold isn't necessarily a bad thing. 

The average horse owner doesn't want a huge project for themselves as they do not have time for that. They want a horse they can hop on and enjoy riding, not be thinking that every minuscule thing they do is shaping their horses behavior. That's why these project, or unstarted horses sit on the market for so long, they are not marketable. Their market is further dwindled down when their owner is trying to find 'the forever home' for them. It is not the most realistic ideal. 

That's where people like me come in. I pick up these horses and give them a chance, I find horses with some potential to them and get rid of their baggage. Most the time i'm working with horses that bolt, rear, buck, are hard to catch etc. However, i'll work with horses that were just not started properly just as often. Those, are the ones I am not a fan of. I have to really like a horse that has been started badly in order to buy them to retrain. Those little ******s think they know the right answer to something I ask them to do when in reality, they were not taught correctly at all. They take MUCH longer than horses that have just learned to misbehave or were never started at all. This is because they will happily offer up the 'correct' answer when I ask and it takes them much longer to offer a different response. 

Her best bet is an up and coming trainer that is going to sell her later on VS a forever home. This type of person needs to get their name out there by the horses they are turning out. They aren't going to sell a bad horse because they need to build their reputation. She's young enough that she's still a good potential buy for a trainer. She's at an age where she's a prospect and she could even get some shows under her belt. 

IMO as someone who deals with all sorts of problem horses, she is MUCH more marketable right now as unstarted than if you were to continue her training. Take some good conformation pictures of her, get a video of her movement on the lungeline and advertise the heck out of her. Sell or give her away to whoever you find that can do some good for her.


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## Liligirl (Jun 9, 2012)

I have not read all the replies but I just do not understand why people rush into riding a young horse. If you are so eager to start your horse there is so much you can do on the ground before getting on.

Working on manners and desensitisation. Take her for walks (you on the ground). Get her enjoying being out and about with you. Then when she is old enough to be ridden she will be pretty calm and relaxed


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## LynnF (Jun 1, 2011)

There are lots of great colt starting clinics out there, if you don't want to send her away for training then maybe try and sign up for one of these. You get 2 or 3 days with a professional who can teach you the basics and help you out by giving you things to work on. 
Learning to train is something that takes a very long time and its best to do it with help!


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Hey jmike, good to see you! 

We got a little filly from my partner's family when her great uncle passed away and liquidated the big family ranch. She was injured and unhandled when we got her, with no history at all. We think she was 1 or 2, Appendix.

I don't understand why everyone is so against training your own horse. Of course, I don't do much more than ride my horses on trail: short loops of 3-4 miles, 6-12 miles, or packing trips. Lots of trotting and loping, walking too, opening and closing gates, crossing creeks, over logs, bridges, steep hills. 

At any rate, we trained our filly ourselves. First, I just spent lots of time with her on the ground with leading. Then we started ponying her, in the arena then on rides. She was soon going with us on every ride for about a year. She learned how to navigate every obstacle. If she balked, I would push her around in a circle with my lead horse, moving her feet. She learned verbal cues just by being around them, and learned a lot from following other horses.

We rode her lightly at first. Now that she is 4, she is ridden often and far. She is a GREAT horse, and I did not really worry much. She did try turning her butt at me a few times, and I just spanked her, chased her off, and demanded she behave or she was not allowed to be near me. Maybe Millie was just an easy horse, and maybe she isn't what many folks on here would want, but she is my BEST horse.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm not against training your own horse at all. I'm just very weary of people that are very inexperienced attempting it, horse training is dangerous if you are inexperienced. I've dealt with horses that people have tried to train themselves for years and the fact that I get a hold of them shows that it doesn't turn out perfect all of the time.

I started my first horse when I was 14, and I was lucky to not get myself really hurt by her. Over the years I learned more and more, and I have had to go back and undo my mistakes as I have realized them. She is never going to be the mare that was could have been if I had known what I was doing back then. If I could go back and smack myself upside the head for even thinking about getting a two year old at the time, I would.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> I don't understand why everyone is so against training your own horse...
> 
> At any rate, we trained our filly ourselves...


There isn't a problem with people training their own horses. The problem is when people barely know what they are doing with the horse but decide to train anyway.

In school, teachers need to know what they are doing BEFORE they teach the students. How well do you think the students would learn if the teacher was learning with them? Would you want a surgeon to be learning while he operates on you? Should anyone just get in a vehicle and teach themselves how to drive? I could keep going. 

When you trained your filly, did you know how to work with horses? When you say "we", does that mean with someone that was experienced?

Training horses isn't something that you can wing it. Too many times, people get a young horse and think that they will bond better with the horse because they will be learning with the horse. Those horses usually end up a mess and get sent down the road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

usandpets said:


> There isn't a problem with people training their own horses. The problem is when people barely know what they are doing with the horse but decide to train anyway.


This exactly, in psychology there is the whole four stages of learning thing, you have similar in the horse world

You have the real novice, the one who knows they know nothing, and are happy to be learning a new skill.

Then the dangerous novice, they THINK it all looks easy, that you can learn this stuff from books and videos and your online buddies. I 'started' a horse at this level, fortunately his new owner loves him.

Then the safe intermediate, where I now have got to, I don't know half of what I thought I did, my timing is often half a beat out, I sold my filly during the summer, because I knew that I could not do her justice, partly due to my skill level, also due to my bravery level right now.

There are levels above me, I reckon two, the guided competent, and the independent competent, the last two should be the trainers of horses, especially young horses or ones with issues. Because 99.9% of issues are caused by people at the dangerous novice stage.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

akruby said:


> In my experience and understanding, this sort of rein cue is a more advanced cue, and therefore not as developmentally appropriate for a young horse first learning to turn. Indirect reining takes multiple, well timed steps in order to teach a young horse how to achieve release. Direct reining, is in my opinion, a better first step for a young horse.


i agree -- and i have not started doing this with the young horse



akruby said:


> Horse receives pressure (pull) from rein. Horse turns head toward pull. Horse achieves release (reward). When going under saddle and adding forward movement (a separate lesson than the head turning lesson), you achieve a turn.


on a snaffle bit, if i want to turn left, i pull the left rein, which pulls on the left side of the snaffle, putting pressure on the right side of the mouth, so even though it is turning towards the pull, it is turning away from pressure



akruby said:


> Young horses not only have no attention span, but have no background knowledge to put together the complexity of an indirect rein without multiple opportunities for confusion. There is a reason that green horses are allowed to be ridden two handed in show.
> 
> I would focus on very short lessons with a single, small, goal in mind each time. Two, 10-15 minute sessions in a day with small successes would be better, in my opinion, than a 20-30 minute session. This will allow you to review a learned few learned skills (proper catching, grooming, tacking, leading...depending on the goal skill). You will then have a few minutes to introduce a new skill, (the head turn, for example), and then (with well timed release), achieve a few quick successes, and put horse and rider away happy and stimulated, excited for the next session. The brain craves novelty, so successful interactions with small lessons will make for a more positive experience.


i wish i had the time to break it into two 20-30 minute sessions
but it takes me that long just to get her attention focused on me
the first 20-30 minutes are mostly warming up and getting her to focus on me
right now we are working on her stopping completely when i get her to whoa
before she was stopping and then taking a few steps toward me
so i started getting her to go again if she does that and letting her rest when she completely stops

I also started getting her going again when she starts looking around for her buddies



akruby said:


> At your horse's age, there is so much teaching you can do from the ground... for much longer than the next two months. I understand that you want to start under saddle in a couple of months. Just think about the percentages. Spend a much higher percentage of the time you are teaching your filly on ground work (both for manners and for saddle work preparation and reinforcement). If I were to throw a number out there, I would maybe say 80% of the interactions with your horse for the next 12 months at least, should be focused on from the ground. That other 20% of the time I would spend working on extremely basic under saddle cues (forward, stop, left, right). I would spend my time with my lesson instructor becoming more schooled before attempting to have more time under saddle with my own horse. Going slowly like this will allow your horse more time to grow, to slowly build the muscles needed to carry you, and you to ask your instructor questions as you think of them when working with your filly.


thank you for that. i am a little torn on how much is too much ground work, and how much is not enough. I have been tryinng to focus on how well she does something instead of how much time she spends doing it

the muscles and growing is something that i really concern myself with
I am a bg guy and do not want to overburden her too early 




akruby said:


> My horse is the same age as yours. I purchased him at 6 mos. He will be the third horse that I have trained in a little over 20 years of riding. My first was after about 10 years with horses, and I know a lot more now than I did then. Even now, I am getting ready to start taking lessons again, while I wait for my gelding to grow and fill out more. During the lessons, I will be sprucing up my riding cues so that I am more precise when I go to teach my guy. In the mean time, we have so much ground work that we can practice to prepare him to be a better riding horse from day one in the saddle. I will probable do basic under saddle work in about a year and then increase the percentage of time under saddle about a year after that. Well cared for horses can live for a very long time. I always tell myself, 'What's the rush?'. If I want to ride, there are plenty of people I can pay (and friends that I don't have to) in order to ride. I want to be able to move slowly and deliberately in the training of my horse, so that we both get to enjoy the process. I have every expectation that I will begin following a couple of different disciplines by the time he is six or so. That is my personal philosophy though.
> 
> I am a teacher by profession. I will leave you with this general advice. Set up both yourself and your horse for success each and every time you interact. Do this by always having a clear plan, a very small goal that the horse can understand, a clear picture of what you expect to see/feel as a success, a plan to communicate that success to your horse, or a reasonable way to correct the horse when she does not understand.
> 
> Good luck.


thank you, that is all very good advice


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Missy May said:


> I have not read all the post, sorry. But, if you are considering selling/giving her away, and feel you do not possess the skill to do right by her w respect to starting her under saddle, then there are a lot of other things to achieve, which you may have already done? Standing nicely when she is saddled, picking up her feet, blanketing, loading, behaving in hand, standing tied, etc., etc., etc.,. If she is an old hand at all such "things", she will be more pleasant to start under saddle regardless of by whom she is started. But, even if she is just one of those "special babies" that never resists and always tries to comply, it would still be doing her an injustice for someone w/o experience to tackle her under saddle training.
> 
> As far as starting a young horse under saddle - if a rider is light and the youngster is well developed - riding them for short periods of time is not going to adversely impact their musculoskeletal development, IMO. Riding one 5-6 times a week long durations - that changes the game.


yes, those are the things we will be working on
last time the farrier was here she tried to sit on him while he was doing her hind legs
she also tried to bite him in the butt
so she is special in the other way


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

BreakableRider said:


> Being sold and resold isn't necessarily a bad thing.
> 
> The average horse owner doesn't want a huge project for themselves as they do not have time for that. They want a horse they can hop on and enjoy riding, not be thinking that every minuscule thing they do is shaping their horses behavior. That's why these project, or unstarted horses sit on the market for so long, they are not marketable. Their market is further dwindled down when their owner is trying to find 'the forever home' for them. It is not the most realistic ideal.
> 
> ...


exactly
i am not trying to give her away to a "forever home"
i was trying to give her away to someone who is capable of handling her
and is willing to put in the time to train her

that is why i would not sell her to a backyard trainer or someone obviously not capable of handling her


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Liligirl said:


> I have not read all the replies but I just do not understand why people rush into riding a young horse. If you are so eager to start your horse there is so much you can do on the ground before getting on.
> 
> Working on manners and desensitisation. Take her for walks (you on the ground). Get her enjoying being out and about with you. Then when she is old enough to be ridden she will be pretty calm and relaxed


that is the point of the entire thread
my original intent was to find out how to get her physically ready
the direction the forums took it was proper training procedures

if 2 months of groundwork, followed by backing her does not appear to be an appropriate timeline, i am open to suggestions


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> Hey jmike, good to see you!
> 
> We got a little filly from my partner's family when her great uncle passed away and liquidated the big family ranch. She was injured and unhandled when we got her, with no history at all. We think she was 1 or 2, Appendix.
> 
> I don't understand why everyone is so against training your own horse. Of course, I don't do much more than ride my horses on trail: short loops of 3-4 miles, 6-12 miles, or packing trips. Lots of trotting and loping, walking too, opening and closing gates, crossing creeks, over logs, bridges, steep hills.


Hi Foxtail, long time no see 

that is my intention as well. i don't want to compete, show, or anything like that. i just want to trail ride on my property in relative peace.
more importantly, i want to trail ride with my daughter.
she has her horse (that needs lots of attention) and i want something to tag along with.

for me, forward, backward, left, and right are the only real handles that i really need on her.
If i can build more handles - cool, if not - no big deal.



Foxtail Ranch said:


> At any rate, we trained our filly ourselves. First, I just spent lots of time with her on the ground with leading. Then we started ponying her, in the arena then on rides. She was soon going with us on every ride for about a year. She learned how to navigate every obstacle. If she balked, I would push her around in a circle with my lead horse, moving her feet. She learned verbal cues just by being around them, and learned a lot from following other horses.


i had considered ponying/snubbing - i just was not sure where in the training process that would go
is that more of an exercise thing, or following the leader thing?



Foxtail Ranch said:


> We rode her lightly at first. Now that she is 4, she is ridden often and far. She is a GREAT horse, and I did not really worry much. She did try turning her butt at me a few times, and I just spanked her, chased her off, and demanded she behave or she was not allowed to be near me. Maybe Millie was just an easy horse, and maybe she isn't what many folks on here would want, but she is my BEST horse.
> 
> View attachment 537226
> 
> ...


mines kicked at me a few times, and reared on me once
hopefully she won't do it again


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

BreakableRider said:


> I'm not against training your own horse at all. I'm just very weary of people that are very inexperienced attempting it, horse training is dangerous if you are inexperienced. I've dealt with horses that people have tried to train themselves for years and the fact that I get a hold of them shows that it doesn't turn out perfect all of the time.
> 
> I started my first horse when I was 14, and I was lucky to not get myself really hurt by her. Over the years I learned more and more, and I have had to go back and undo my mistakes as I have realized them. She is never going to be the mare that was could have been if I had known what I was doing back then. If I could go back and smack myself upside the head for even thinking about getting a two year old at the time, I would.


i am 36 - I am ex-army and an IT/Network/Security guy
so i am familiar with risk avoidance and mitigation as well as project planning -- i am really good at project planning

i am also a dad, so i know a little about persistance


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

jmike said:


> mines kicked at me a few times, and reared on me once
> hopefully she won't do it again


Make your mission to ensure that the next time will be the last time. If she even signals that she is thinking about it you need to get after her HARD. Either behavior can be quick way to get dead.

When we were working on loading my new horse (first time ever loading) he took a swipe at me. I cracked him a couple good ones with the whip, but the guy who was helping me pointed out, with utmost grace, that I had been ignoring his "pre-kick" signals. Vigorous correction and a good session of learning "hide the hiney" fixed that right proper.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

greenhaven said:


> Make your mission to ensure that the next time will be the last time. If she even signals that she is thinking about it you need to get after her HARD. Either behavior can be quick way to get dead.
> 
> When we were working on loading my new horse (first time ever loading) he took a swipe at me. I cracked him a couple good ones with the whip, but the guy who was helping me pointed out, with utmost grace, that I had been ignoring his "pre-kick" signals. Vigorous correction and a good session of learning "hide the hiney" fixed that right proper.


last time she kicked at me, i chased her for 30 minutes with a lunge whip and would not allow her to rejoin her herd
she she tried to get around me to rejoin the herd, i chased after her
the herd was upset about that and started running her away until i was done chasing her

she rearing thing was getting her to back up
she bit at me and reared - so i whacked her on the neck with a riding crop

not something i am willing to tolerate
i would be interested in knowing what pre-kick signals would look like
ear pinning seems to be an obvious one
but she doesn't really pin her ears
she kind of halfway pins them and it looks like annoyance more than anything else
i am wondering how much of that i should tolerate


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

jmike said:


> i would be interested in knowing what pre-kick signals would look like


It is probably different from horse to horse (first time I have ever had to deal with it) but in our case is was a little ear-pin, or maybe a tail wring, and the subtlest hip-check in my direction. Like you reading her "annoyance," which can be a pre-signal. Depends on the horse. Pay attention to the way she escalates from there when deciding how (or if) to correct "annoyance."


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

greenhaven said:


> It is probably different from horse to horse (first time I have ever had to deal with it) but in our case is was a little ear-pin, or maybe a tail wring, and the subtlest hip-check in my direction. Like you reading her "annoyance," which can be a pre-signal. Depends on the horse. Pay attention to the way she escalates from there when deciding how (or if) to correct "annoyance."


mine hip checks me once in a while
i used to just push her out of my space
but now i smack her on the butt until she moves out of my space


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

That is something I would strongly recommend you work on, that she stays out of your space and that it does not take a smack to get her out. She should be able to yield her shoulders and hindquarters at minimal signal from you. It takes time to build up to that, but it is vitally important. If she is still disrespecting your space you need to go back and fix that.

It is my main focus right now with my new guy, not being a pocket pony. he is a good horse, but his po's have let him get away with bad manners. So we are going allll the way back to basics and filling in all the holes in his training.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

greenhaven said:


> That is something I would strongly recommend you work on, that she stays out of your space and that it does not take a smack to get her out. She should be able to yield her shoulders and hindquarters at minimal signal from you. It takes time to build up to that, but it is vitally important. If she is still disrespecting your space you need to go back and fix that.
> 
> It is my main focus right now with my new guy, not being a pocket pony. he is a good horse, but his po's have let him get away with bad manners. So we are going allll the way back to basics and filling in all the holes in his training.


that is part of the problem for me
i can show her new things and she catches on well enough
and most times those lessons can be duplicated with similar success

but ... i am not sure how to correct something other than waiting for the opportunity to present itself and correct it as it happens


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

Well, there is a difference between a horse who occasionally breaks protocol and one who is a habitual offender. You are the only one qualified to make that decision.

If you determine she is a habitual offender in this regard you need to figure out why. Then you can bring it here and ask for guidance. Myself, I am prepared to let someone more experienced address the "why" if she is still breaking the law on a regular basis.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

greenhaven said:


> Well, there is a difference between a horse who occasionally breaks protocol and one who is a habitual offender. You are the only one qualified to make that decision.
> 
> If you determine she is a habitual offender in this regard you need to figure out why. Then you can bring it here and ask for guidance. Myself, I am prepared to let someone more experienced address the "why" if she is still breaking the law on a regular basis.


the annoyance look is habitual
she has reared once, and kicked out 3 times in 14 months

thanks for all of the great information -- i appreciated your perspective


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

jmike said:


> the annoyance look is habitual


Habitual when she's being handled? It sounds as if she is definitely 'special in the other way' :?

My 6 yo was ****y and irritable with me when I got her. Tail-swishing when I groomed her, she'd pin her ears and head off when she saw I wanted to catch her, generally bad attitude (tons of problems under saddle too but that's a different story). I did a few round pen sessions and saw a massive improvement in her attitude very quickly. After two days of 15 or 20 minutes in the round pen, she would wait for me to catch her with her ears pricked. And she has become much more interested in pleasing me in general.

I must admit I had always taken the round pen stuff, join up and so on with a big pinch of salt. But for Xena it was well worth the effort of separating an area of the yard to use as a round pen (actually rectangular but it does the trick). Do you have any enclosed space where you can work your filly loose? I know you already lunge her, and round penning might just sound like lunging without a line, but it's way different in the way the horse sees it. The fact that you can control their direction and speed from a distance without a rope or halter bumps your herd status up fast from their point of view. And that could help you a lot with your filly's pushy attitude.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Bondre said:


> Habitual when she's being handled? It sounds as if she is definitely 'special in the other way' :?
> 
> My 6 yo was ****y and irritable with me when I got her. Tail-swishing when I groomed her, she'd pin her ears and head off when she saw I wanted to catch her, generally bad attitude (tons of problems under saddle too but that's a different story). I did a few round pen sessions and saw a massive improvement in her attitude very quickly. After two days of 15 or 20 minutes in the round pen, she would wait for me to catch her with her ears pricked. And she has become much more interested in pleasing me in general.
> 
> I must admit I had always taken the round pen stuff, join up and so on with a big pinch of salt. But for Xena it was well worth the effort of separating an area of the yard to use as a round pen (actually rectangular but it does the trick). Do you have any enclosed space where you can work your filly loose? I know you already lunge her, and round penning might just sound like lunging without a line, but it's way different in the way the horse sees it. The fact that you can control their direction and speed from a distance without a rope or halter bumps your herd status up fast from their point of view. And that could help you a lot with your filly's pushy attitude.


that is good advice - i also take it with a pinch of salt. 
the primary resource i am missing for setting up a round-pen area is time

as it is - i get up at 530 - leave the house at 630 - get to work at 730 and get home at 530 
then i work whisky until 630, eat dinner and log back into work until 930
i expect this schedule to be constant for the next 2 months
maybe i can stash away enough cash to send her away for a month

we just started week 3 and i am finally seeing what i would call success
she is half-pinning her ears less and paying more attention
we started tying the pony up far away so she doesn't distract us
she is getting better at stopping and waiting for instructions instead of stopping, turning in, looking around, taking a few steps, and then stopping

we worked mostly on stopping and waiting, but also included transitions
walk to slow trot -- slow trot to fast trot -- fast trot to stop -- fast trot to slow trot - slow trot to walk
i had her lope a few times last friday 

i have come to the conclusion that if it takes us 2 weeks to get this far
then 2 months to complete groundwork is wildly optimistic
i am now expecting 4 months to finish groundwork
then another month to back her and get her doing forward/backward/left/right

maybe by then i will have progressed enough in my lessons to control the body parts from the saddle on a lesson horse


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

jmike said:


> i have come to the conclusion that if it takes us 2 weeks to get this far
> then 2 months to complete groundwork is wildly optimistic
> i am now expecting 4 months to finish groundwork
> then another month to back her and get her doing forward/backward/left/right


Try and erase any sense of expectation, it will make you more attuned to the readiness of your horse to move forward. She might need more time than you project.

But she might also start making leaps and bounds once there is a breakthrough.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

greenhaven said:


> Try and erase any sense of expectation, it will make you more attuned to the readiness of your horse to move forward. She might need more time than you project.
> 
> But she might also start making leaps and bounds once there is a breakthrough.


i expect all of my expectations to change :lol:

the only way for me to project progress is by judging previous progress
so, my timeline is just a guesstimate 
like -- it might rain tomorrow, but it might not -- just something that i will watch


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

jmike said:


> as it is - i get up at 530 - leave the house at 630 - get to work at 730 and get home at 530
> then i work whisky until 630, eat dinner and log back into work until 930


That's quite a tight schedule. The fact that you manage to devote time to training your horse says a lot for your determination.
I actually misread it first time, I thought you wrote 'I drink whisky until 630' :shock: . I was wondering how you manage to do anything with your horse with all that whisky sloshing around when I remembered that Whisky is your filly's name! 



jmike said:


> we just started week 3 and i am finally seeing what i would call success
> she is half-pinning her ears less and paying more attention


Glad to hear that you are seeing progress. 



jmike said:


> i have come to the conclusion that if it takes us 2 weeks to get this far
> then 2 months to complete groundwork is wildly optimistic
> i am now expecting 4 months to finish groundwork
> then another month to back her and get her doing forward/backward/left/right
> ...


She may surprise you for the better. When you find the optimal way to work with your horse they can learn very fast. The problem is finding the language each one understands. What works with your other mare may not work with the filly and vice versa. Bear that in mind if she doesn't seem to be advancing. Maybe you just need to try a different approach. That is where the experienced trainers have a huge advantage because they have a better idea of what kind of approach is suitable for each horse.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Bondre said:


> I actually misread it first time, I thought you wrote 'I drink whisky until 630' :shock: . I was wondering how you manage to do anything with your horse with all that whisky sloshing around when I remembered that Whisky is your filly's name!


i do sip some while working, helps me sleep
and i could use all the buety rest i can get

yeh -- whisky is the filly


from 5 months ago -- her front end is caught up at the moment and she looks like a real horse now 

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-conformation-critique/critique-whiskey-better-pics-419986/


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

jmike said:


> ... she looks like a real horse now ...


You sound like my kids talking about my grandson; "He's eating a lot more human food, now." Lol


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

greenhaven said:


> You sound like my kids talking about my grandson; "He's eating a lot more human food, now." Lol


lol - thanks 
that was funny


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, everyone has their own perspective, so my .02 is this, you sound busy, organized, and may well have the patience of Job. The one "rule" I impose on myself whilst intending to impose my rules on a youngster is - if I feel that I am about to lose my temper, I immediately find a stopping point and quit, let it pass, and start over. Obvious, but worth committing to memory.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Missy May said:


> Well, everyone has their own perspective, so my .02 is this, you sound busy, organized, and may well have the patience of Job. The one "rule" I impose on myself whilst intending to impose my rules on a youngster is - if I feel that I am about to lose my temper, I immediately find a stopping point and quit, let it pass, and start over. Obvious, but worth committing to memory.


i have plenty of patience and perseverence for teaching and troubleshooting
i have none for bad manners


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

jmike, ponying is a great way to teach and exercise. lessons are follow where I lead you, calm acceptance, whoa, keep the pace, yield, cross scary stuff, back up. there is so much to learn! it's good for the lead horse too, and teaches both to tolerate other horses near.


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## RedOne (Oct 17, 2014)

How is your horse going? What are you currently working on? What issues have you come across so far?


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

RedOne said:


> How is your horse going? What are you currently working on? What issues have you come across so far?


progress is slow and steady

this week i switched from using the lunge whip to using the tail end of the lead
she tried ignoring me, until i started swinging to tail end of the rope
so, my guess is that she thinks my authority comes from the lunge whip
but she is slowing learning that i am the boss

week 1 was lunging and stopping in both direction and some backing up
her stopping was not so good
she would stop, turn in, take a few steps, look around, stare off into space

everything went well, but it seems like she either forgot how to back up, or no longer respects me enough to do it well


week 2 was lunging and stopping in both directions with emphasis on really stopping
she is getting better at it
now i say whoa, she turns and faces me, if she keeps stepping towards me, i send her off again

her focus is getting better -- we had 1 major flare up where she reared while i was backing her up -- i ended up smacking her in the neck with a riding crop -- she should not be acting that way, much less when i am that close


week 3 is working on transitions, and changing directions without stopping
she still tries to take a step or 2 after stopping 
i send her off when she does
she also starts looking around and not focusing
i am sending her off when it is bad (looking over her shoulder and i am completely out of her line of sight)

she is "sticky" turning to go in the other direction
at this point she is being really good about changing speeds 
her ears are still half-pinned like she is annoyed


normaly feeding time is putting out 4 buckets for 4 horses and letting them sort it out
so, i try to feed her by herself after lessons
hopefully she will start to associate the 2, but then again, maybe not


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

I don't think I would ever ride a horse below the age of five. 
and I agree - it sounds like you don't know what to teach her almost, if you are asking for advice on cues and such. I would get a trainer to help you, so the horse isn't ruined. I'm not daying that it would be, don't get me wrong.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

only got in 3 days of work with her this past week

the hour change will make it exceptionally difficult to get our work in
wife noticed a change in the horse
said she is beefing up a little bit


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

she is such a beautiful horse. she reminds me of my mare April, the horse in my avatar. 

do you have a barn with lights? you can work on ground tying, yielding fore and hind, backing, giving feet and other good stuff in very little space.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> she is such a beautiful horse. she reminds me of my mare April, the horse in my avatar.
> 
> do you have a barn with lights? you can work on ground tying, yielding fore and hind, backing, giving feet and other good stuff in very little space.


no barn, but there are 2 light poles in the pasture

i got my neighbor to help this weekend. I traded hime some t-posts and barbwire for help. he has broken several horses and is experienced. We just finished 2 days on her -- 28 more to go. he was impressed with the prep work i put on her. he said she is doing great, better than he expected.

i am excited, and have been having fun with it.
she is a hard worker and good listener.
yesterday we decided to work her with an exercise buddy (dixie) doing laps around the pasture.
it takes 3 and 1/8th of a lap to make a mile
Dixie is still sulling, but he showed me how to get past that.
need to build more confidence
hopefully we can get some work done this week during the evenings
if not -- will have to stick to Thursday/Saturday/Sunday


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Wednesday was good
2.5 miles at a trot
george rode whiskey, i rode dixie

we did our warm up walking/trotting
then we did 1 mile at a trott - took a break to let whiskey catch her breath
same thing for mile 2 and then a rest
at that time whiskey was getting tired and wanted to stop
dixie made for a great encourager

got another half mile out of her and called it quits

might shoot for 3 miles on saturday

also figured out how to get dixie to quit sulling
put on a pair of spurs


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

best day ever

daughter had her lesson from 9am-10am
i had my lesson from 10am - 11am

came home had lunch
worked our horses

first hour
I had Whiskey - Mary had Dixie
mostly walk - occassional trott

the next 35 minutes
George had Whiskey
Mary had *******
I had Dixie

mostly trott
occassional walk
Mary was a superstar with ******* smooth speed managing the pace

Whiskey was soaked with sweat and Diskey was barely sweating

had a great time


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

also

Mary had ******* at afaster pace than she has ever had her --- not sure what gait is after a pace -- but she hit it
it was really awesome watching her hit higher speeds and concentrate on her moves.
i was really proud
i really hope she chooses to work with me and george tomorrow


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