# donkey fights hard while being trimmed



## Dustbunny

Can she walk without pain? Have you had the vet look at her and evaluate as to soundness? Poor girl.


----------



## Joel Reiter

If a horse acted this way, which is quite common, I would expect the reason is simple fear. Why should your donkey trust you to be messing around with his feet? In the first place, if you grab a foot he is trapped. In the second place, how does he know you aren't about to start eating him from the bottom up? How do you feel when a dentist reaches into your mouth?

It takes a lot of handling before an equine can relax being touched, and of all the body parts, the feet are usually the ones that require the most training. You can't wait until trimming time and expect the farrier to magically be able to handle a hysterical animal.

Baby steps -- can you brush the donkey all over, starting with his neck and moving back and down? Can you take a light stick of some kind and move it up and down the donkey's legs? Can you take a lead rope and toss it so it encircles the donkey's feet? These are all critical exercises before you just try and grab the poor animal's foot and start cutting on it.

I think if you search "handling a horse's feet site:youtube.com you'll get a lot of ideas. Here's one example:





Start at 7:45, and also pay particular attention to the use of the rope at about 16:00. You can do this more patiently than what you see in the video -- instead of chasing the donkey around, go back to the stick and the rope exercises until the fear goes away. If you start now, you could have him comfortable with handling his feet by the time he's due for his next trim.

Maybe some of our longears experts can chime in on how these techniques should be modified for donkeys and mules.


----------



## loosie

Thanks Joel for sharing that vid. I watched it all. As you know, I'm not big on CA generally, think he's too 'big', aggressive generally. And in this case IMO. I found it hard to watch him making such a confrontation, an event of something that can(should) be calmly done. 

Just in the start of that vid, when you saw the farrier working with the horse, there were many, many instances of 'Good Behaviour' that went by as wasted training opportunities, where it would have been really productive for the farrier to have backed off, rewarded the horse. But he wasn't 'listening' & just kept on doing, until finally the horse had learned to TELL him enough was enough. Granted though that the farrier was likely employed just as a farrier, not to help the lady train the horse...

As for the rope around the leg bit, would have been interesting for him to go into it with the rope a bit more. I do train 'kicky' horses like this too, with a rope or stick, to stay at a safe range. And I also do believe that punishing the horse for doing so is indeed sometimes necessary. CA is all for making the right thing 'easier' by punishing the 'wrong' with 'moving his feet'. Basic & sound premise, but not the 'be all & end all' by a long way. 

When a horse (or donk) is fighting in fear(or objecting to pain, current or remembered), which is so often the case... especially as it likely is having 5 men holding her down, just 'making the wrong thing (more) difficult' is not going to magically turn the Right Thing fine. In fact, causing more confrontation is only likely to make the problem - fear of the situation - worse. I think anthropomorphising isn't always a bad thing at all & in this sort of case, putting yourself in the donkey's shoes will help you work out an *effective and non confrontational way to get her over it.

Had more than a few 'difficult cases' but OP your situation reminds me of a client with a donkey, that neglected to tell me until I got there that he didn't know how successful we'd be because Jack(he was one) had kicked and bitten many farriers & he didn't have the usual bunch of farm hands around to throw & hold the donkey down for me! I told him I wouldn't have been willing to work like that anyway, outlined how I'd handle it, and as he hated the whole ordeal for the poor donk, just didn't know how else to deal with him, he was happy to try my way. *He did agree to pay me for my time, and I said I didn't promise I'd get the actual job done in one session. I think I was there for an hour & a half or so that first visit, and got Jack's front feet done & his backs handled, without a fight. The guy was amazed!

Instead of putting her in a 'sink or swim' situation, you need to work in 'baby steps' to make the Right things easy for her. Not just easiER, but easy. Work at wherever she's at, so she can be reinforced & rewarded as much as possible for Right behaviour and minimise her getting to the point of feeling the need for Wrong. _Show_ her there's nothing to fear. _Prove_ to her it's OK, not Bad like she expected. On the contrary, including well timed rewards, it can become a Good Thing for her to allow foot handling.

But a horse/donk who has already learned how to rid an annoyance so easily, even in absence of fear, is likely to still at least occasionally behave like this. Of course. Because it works very well for them. So you do need to find *safe* ways to teach the animal it no longer works, without causing more fear. I don't believe 'moving his feet' aggressively is the best way to do this generally. That's where rope or stick really come in I reckon. Once the horse is desensitised to the feel of the rope around their leg, then I start asking them to yield to it - picking their foot up with it, for an instant to begin, baby steps. Don't just get them used to it, teach them to respond to the pressure of it. You can then keep 'asking', keep the pressure on safely and if they kick out, it just doesn't work. You can use your hand in conjunction with the rope as a 'back up', in case you can't safely hang on to the foot too.

Finding a good farrier to reinforce that might be far more difficult tho - if they come at her like they used to, she will likely 'revert to form' too. While you can work on her trust and _*EARN*_ _her_ respect, that's not going to automatically make her trust others, especially with so many bad experiences in the past. So it's vital you also find someone who is willing to help you not just do her feet, but train her. Donkeys IME are more likely to go into 'fight' rather than 'flight' mode, and can do it very fast! - Whereas a horse might kick out like the one in the vid, a donk can often do it twice as fast, and aim at the head!


----------



## Joel Reiter

I should have also mentioned that this is an appropriate opportunity for clicker training, if the OP wants a gentle approach.


----------



## gottatrot

loosie said:


> Thanks Joel for sharing that vid. I watched it all. As you know, I'm not big on CA generally, think he's too 'big', aggressive generally. And in this case IMO. I found it hard to watch him making such a confrontation, an event of something that can(should) be calmly done.


Sorry OP, but I have to comment on the video.

Something that CA as a horseman should consider. Why is the horse so resistant? This is more than a behavioral issue. I'm just starting to learn about locking stifles and I can't say I know that much yet. But doesn't it look like the horse's stifle is popping hard when he is backing the horse? Real horsemanship is using your brain and deciding if the horse is saying "I won't," or "I can't." If a horse is stellar with the front hooves but can't tolerate lifting the hinds, that can point to a real physical problem. All of this should be addressed before going to such extremes as driving a horse backward around a ring, which could be painful or frightening to a horse with a stifle issue. In this case, it might be the farrier that needs to adapt to the horse's physical problem and not lift the leg so high.

My horse that is teaching me about stifle issues can't yet put his leg into a high flexed position or stretch it far behind, and if I put it too far it bothers him. He is learning not to kick, but I also am learning not to try for a position he can't achieve. If I do his overwhelming urge is to kick his way out of it.


----------



## loosie

^Yes, I was also looking at the farrier working in the start of the vid & horse was being well mannered, well mannered, well mannered, then the farrier hoiked the leg up a bit higher & horse then said ****** off. Good horsemanship is about listening & being considerate about the horse's perspective, more so than just shoving your ideas down it's throat IMHO.


----------



## Raman

yes, she seems to move fine and the vet is the one who gave us the sedative before previous trimmings. He given it to her himself, I've taken many of my animals to him and hes come to my house for not only horses but also cats and dogs. I trust that he would tell me if there was a pain issue occurring. 
ve


----------



## Raman

Okay, I feel like you are angry with me? I feel like you are thinking that I don't the first thing about horses and have no common sense. First, I'm not the one who is attempting to trim her, that would be the horse shoer, this occurs when I'm at work. Buttercup and I are friends, I crawl under her and around her, I curry her and feed her treats like apples and an occasional sugar cube. She is completely friendly and tame. Please understand, I'm coming at this because I wanted to make it a better experience all around. She is fully aware that I'm not going to "eat her", like I said we are friends. Every time I walk outside she brays to have me come and pet her. Forgive me, but, your post seemed a little harsh. 

Maybe its my fault for not explaining more. I didn't one day just go and buy a horse a month ago. I've had horses my entire life and the majority of that time was spent in the show ring, ISHSA and IQHA to name 2, I had my own pony at 6 years old, my mother also had horses her entire life and my relatives all have horses. I'm familiar. 

Granted, she is not like them, donkeys are different, but she came from a bad place and needed someone to rescue her, I did what I thought was right, her habits come from that bad place, so its even more difficult than your can imagine. I asked questions after speaking to the people that are having to first hand deal with this, I felt that I owed her that. She is not a wild animal all the time, just with the trimming, any other time she is friendly to everyone and very social and quite funny.I can put my hands or sticks anywhere on her with absolutely no problem. 

Thank you for the video, it is informative. I have already taken some advice that someone on this forum gave me a week or so ago. Starting off slowly and patiently, several times day I go and work with her, I only go as far she allows, then I quit and try again later. Super long process but I don't see any other way to proceed. Thank you for hearing me out.


----------



## Raman

Finding anyone is getting harder and harder, seems like the ones we've used for the horses have all retired, and the others know what will happen. We do have one guy who will do it so far. I live in a rural area in Idaho and there doesn't seem to be a lot of them to choose from. I think that I need to be here when he does it from here on out and explain to him what I'm attempting to do. My husband told me that the horse shoer recognized Buttercup, he had said that he trimmed Buttercup years ago when she had a decent owner and he said she has always fought it, even when she was young. Thank you for your advice, you seem very kind and I appreciate it.


----------



## loosie

Raman said:


> Okay, I feel like you are angry with me? I feel like you are thinking that I don't the first thing about horses and have no common sense.


I'm very sorry you feel that way. Are you directing that at me? If so, no, not in the very least Raman & I can't see in anyone else's posts where they're sounding angry or such with you either. Perhaps you're taking it that way because we're stating things you find obvious or common sense? If so, please don't take it that we're assuming you're ignorant & lacking common sense, but that we get all sorts of people with all sorts of experience - & lack of it - here, so we just don't have a clue about you & don't want to leave anything out.



> First, I'm not the one who is attempting to trim her, that would be the horse shoer, this occurs when I'm at work. Buttercup and I are friends, I crawl under her


OK, can YOU handle her feet OK? If not, ensure you get her good with you first. If you don't know how to/not achieving anything, find a*considerate* trainer who can work with her/you. If you can, you then need to find others who are good & friendly & not confrontational with her, to teach/reinforce that allowing others to handle her feet is OK too. 

I would NOT allow a 'combative' farrier to deal with her, or have others hold her down. I would also ensure you are there when the farrier's doing their stuff. 

As it's likely to take a while to get her over these previous experiences, as well as find a good trimmer who is also a good, considerate horseman, it might be a while before you get her feet done again. While of course, it's far from ideal to allow them to get too overgrown, it's not likely to have any serious effects if short term, esp if she's on yielding footing. So I'd give precedence to training over actual hoof trimming for the time being & don't stress about her hooves getting a bit... neglected.



> but she came from a bad place and needed someone to rescue her, I did what I thought was right, her habits come from that bad place, so its even more difficult than your can imagine.


Unfortunately I can do more than just imagine - have dealt with more than a few 'abused' cases that other farriers have 'thrown in the towel' on. So hers is not just a short term or new problem. So it will likely take longer to overcome & she may always be on edge & ready to fight with people she doesn't know, or if they make a mistake which causes her to worry. One good thing, if you haven't been present during these scary situations, she won't associate you with the procedure, so hopefully when you come to work with others *not already associated with the bad experiences, she will have trust in you & you can help reassure her that you'll keep her safe with others too.

The Jack donk I told about was about 8yo & had always been dealt with that way - his owner was also one of the people who would hold him down. I actually found it was easier to deal with him without his owner present - got him to stand outside the yard. But hopefully you can be a help, not a hinderance for her ;-)


----------



## loosie

Raman said:


> Finding anyone is getting harder and harder,


You might just have to learn to do it yourself then. You wouldn't be the only one by far - lack of good farriery is the reason that so many owners take up the challenge. Including me. I only started this 'game' around 20 years back because I couldn't find anyone to do my horses, never planned to make a career out of it.


----------



## loosie

Are you still with us Ramon?


----------

