# Brindle or Roan?



## Nokotaheaven

So I have a Grulla Nokota horse filly named Spirit. My mom and I cannot figure out wether she's a brindle or a roan... She has shoulder bars and zebra stripes on her legs, and a dorsal stripe that also runs directly under her stomach. She has the roan/brindle on her neck, barrel, and rump. It seems to kinda fade in and out a bit depending on the time of year.
I am new to this and am not sure how to post pics, but a while back i made a video showing her and her colour, so here's a link to that.


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## CLaPorte432

Definitely NOT bridle. I don't see roan.

She's GREY!!! :-D She started greying up on her face and then down her neck. And you can DEFINITELY tell by the color of her tail. The bottom half has greyed out.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I'm not an expert, but she is definitely not brindle. Generally speaking, the barring/brindling on a true brindle horse will be very defined and obvious, and won't fade in and out with the seasons.


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## TimberRidgeRanch

Definately NOT a brindle I would say more a blue roan or Blue dun Grulla but definately not a brindle brindle is very unique pattern


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## Nokotaheaven

Okay, thank you. And honestly I would say she is at least a roan, because she does have patterned striping over her body... It's really hard to get a pic of on cameras though


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## Piaffe

To me she looks like a greying out (pretty quickly!) grulla. I don't see any brindling or roaning to be honest. Sometimes while greys are in the process of lightening they go through "roan" looking stage. I think your girl will be light grey in a few years. She is a cutie!


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## CLaPorte432

Roan does not cause stripes. Do you know what color her parents were or better yet, do you have pictures?

Ill bet her base color is black, plus dun which is grulla. Plus grey.


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## TimWhit91

roaning is not striping. Roaning is white hairs over a base color. I'm sure the color experts can explain it better. She looks like she is graying out to me though


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## TimWhit91

She is extremely cute, where do Nokota's come from? Never heard of them until now.


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## Nokotaheaven

Okay. And I don't have a pic of her mom, but I have a pic of what I think is her dad. Im not sure how to get it on here.
here is a link to the ranch she came from. These are some of her siblings, and the picture of the baby nosing the guy IS actually her...
Nokotas Of The Crazy R


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## NdAppy

Your mare is grey. Grey can cause some really funky things to happen during the greying process.


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## Lexiie

not roan, she wouldn't have all the white flecking on her face


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## Chiilaa

Definitely grey. If she was roan or dun, you would expect her head and legs to stay fairly dark, which they do not. If she was brindle, you wouldn't have to tell people to look closely to see her stripes.


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## BarrelRacingLvr

Not Brindle.....I say either she is Greying out from a Grulla coat, Grulla, or Grulla roan but not sure on the roan. We have raised lots of roans of many colors and she just has to much white hair throughout her face to be roan....so I say she is greying out from a Grulla coat.


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## Nokotaheaven

Ah okay, thank you. But is it maybe possible that she was born a roan , but is graying out from that?


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## NdAppy

Maybe she was roan at birth, but roan doesn't cause grey. Grey covers EVERY coat color no matter what it is.


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## Nokotaheaven

Yeah I know... But it doesn't have to cause it to have her turn grey. They're either born with the gene or they're not. I don't know, maybe a dna test is best


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## Speed Racer

Your horse is_ gray_. Why do you want to believe she's some sort of special color? She's not, she's an _obviously_ gray horse doing what they do, which is graying out.

Color is irrelevant anyway, and if she isn't just as special to you being gray as she would some exotic color, then you bought her for all the wrong reasons.


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## redape49

Removed by mod team as unhelpful and too personal.


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## Piaffe

*shrugs* Do a grey test then...

UC Davis and Animal Genetics offer it...

Then you will know for sure


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## Nokotaheaven

Okay, thank you.
And to Speed Racer... Really I just want to know what's causing the stripes. And no we got her because of her mind and temperment, and I love her regardless.


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## Jacksmama

I think the stripes are from Dun, looks like she is a black Dun. They have all sorts of primal markings, stripes on legs, etc... Eventually though, I have to agree that she will probably gray out and be a white Nakota She is super cute by the way, I haven't heard much about Nakotas but everything I've heard has been awesome.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I'd be willing to bet it's just her graying out that's causing those "weird" vertical stripes that you're seeing. Horses gray out in all sorts of funky patterns.


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## dunfold

The greying out process is causing the stripes. Very common with grey, more common than not actually


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## Nokotaheaven

Okay, well thank you very much everyone 
And yeah they are awesome, they're super smart and just plain awesome horses to work with and be around


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## nvr2many

TimWhit91 said:


> She is extremely cute, where do Nokota's come from? Never heard of them until now.


She is beautiful and to answer this .... Nokota horses are descended from the last surviving population of wild horses in North Dakota.


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## AEJaro

She is certainly adorable! But I agree with the majority she is graying out. Which means she isn't roan.


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## Nokotaheaven

Thank you!
and nv2rmany, that is right. But, those wild horses are actually decendents of Chief Sitting Bull's herd of government horses that were given to them. They were mixed with everything. If you notice, Spirit has the white pigement around her eyes that Appys do, meaning she probably has some Appy somewhere way back in her blood


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## nvr2many

Nokotaheaven said:


> Thank you!
> and nv2rmany, that is right. But, those wild horses are actually decendents of Chief Sitting Bull's herd of government horses that were given to them. They were mixed with everything. If you notice, Spirit has the white pigement around her eyes that Appys do, meaning she probably has some Appy somewhere way back in her blood


With wild horses, I guess its like a box of chocolates...... ya never know what you are gonna get, lol. :lol:


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## Poseidon

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I'd be willing to bet it's just her graying out that's causing those "weird" vertical stripes that you're seeing. Horses gray out in all sorts of funky patterns.


Graying and the dun markings are what are causing your striping. It is not uncommon for the shoulder barring to continue down the entire back, causing a look of vertical striping, which is what it looks like to me and being further distorted by the graying process.


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## Nokotaheaven

LOL I agree with you nvr2many xD


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## lilkitty90

nakota! i think a white nakota horse would be awesome! i can't wait to see more photos of her, she looks like such a sweet character.


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## Nokotaheaven

Haha aww thank you! And she is. My mom and I are going to get her and another horse from a farm in 8 days, so I'll get some new pics then. But I'll post a couple pics of her last winter...
And haha... The last time i saw her there were horses running around the paddock. and i had her on halter & lead, so she reared in play cuz she wanted to run with them. So I let her go, and one of the first things she did was rear and paw the air, walk a few steps on her hind legs, and take off when she hit the ground. I love her soo much <3


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## Nokotaheaven

[/ATTACH]
These are the pics


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## Piaffe

She is really cute!!!


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## Nokotaheaven

Thank you


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## Nuala

She is a striped silver grulla. zebra striped horses were believed to be able to move silently. They will have some striping across their back much like a dun or buckskin does at the shoulder but they are not brindle. She has some "chrome" which can sometimes look like roaning but it is what makes her a silver grulla. 



















This is a clean silver grulla. same roan look but it is just a silver. Notice also has a belly line and shoulder bars.


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## Chiilaa

Silver grulla is not a colour.


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## Nuala

Chiilaa said:


> Silver grulla is not a colour.


Silver Grulla Kiger Mustang (and recognized as such)









Grulla (NO chroming and warmer colored)


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## Chiilaa

"Silver" grulla is a marketing ploy designed to sell horses that are "fancy" and "rare". A grulla of any shade is caused by a black horse having a dun gene. The silver cast to the colouring could be caused by a lot of factors, as could the warmer shade of the second horse, such as sun fading, season, diet, time photo is taken etc. The top horse also looks like it could be clipped, which also takes a lot of warmth out of the colour of any horse. The top picture was taken some time in the middle of the day - say from 10 am to about 3pm. The light then is sharper, and makes everything seem harsher, including colours. The second photo is taken in the "golden" hour - some time in the few hours before sunset. This time is so called because of the warm cast it tends to give photos.


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## Nuala

Yet that same gene that makes a silver a silver is the one that is the difference between a bay and a roan bay or a dapple and a rose grey.
SO you are going to tell me that it was the light that made the difference between the gurlla between the palos and the one on the left next to the roan?









Or maybe the horses in this picture had their photos taken at different times of the day?









SO i guess there is no difference between palomino and dark palomino either?


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## Chiilaa

The genes responsible for changing the shade of horses are many and varied, and the dominance patterns are not understood. Diet can vastly change colour - how do you know all those horses have been fed the exact diet they require to produce their "ideal" coat colour? Age can change a horse's colour too - are all these horses the same age? 

I personally would be interested to see a test on these "warmer" grullas to see if they are instead, brown based dun. I bet the results would surprise a lot of people. I would not be surprised if the warmer toned ones were not grulla at all, but brown dun.


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## NdAppy

I don't care for the term "silver" grulla either. Plus, since the horse in the OP is also grey, and is clearly showing signs of grey, and may or may not be roan, those two things also skew the base color. She does have dun and black under the grey. In no way would I call her a "silver" grulla though. She is grey.


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## Nokotaheaven

Okay, thank you everyone for your imput. I do like the term 'silver grulla', but i think without a DNA or hair test right now it is hard to tell what she is. I do know that mustangs and Nokotas come in many unusual colours that just don't show up at all in domestic horses. For example, Kigers come in both Claybank and Lobo dun. Here is a picture of both colours. And if my horse is a silver grulla, either way i believe she is graying out. I found out over the weekend that she has an older sister that did too. And I've found with Spirit, it doesn't matter what time of the day it is when you take a pic, she always comes out the same colour.
And by the way the pic with two horses, from left to right is mother and daughter. Mother is a grey, and daughter is a claybank dun. Both are lightening up with age. Mother started as black, daughter started as darker dun.
[/ATTACH]


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## NdAppy

Lobo dun is just a bay with the dun gene and claybank is a red dun. There is nothing special about either colors other than someone slapped a name on them. 

Whether or not the daughter in the pic was a red dun doesn't matter. At this point she is is grey as well.

You may like the term "silver grulla" but it is incorrect unless the horse is also carrying the silver gene.


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## Nokotaheaven

No a lobo is a dun, a really really dark dun, but dun nonetheless. And the claybank was never a red dun. ive seen pics of her as a 2yo. She was darker, but never quite that dark. And she is not grey, she's just lightening with age. She doesn't have any white hairs other than in her mane n tail. Her entire body is completely a cream colour that is orangy if you look at it without a camera


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## NdAppy

I am looking at the picture of the two horses. Both horses are grey now regardless of their base color.


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## Nokotaheaven

Yes but I agree she is lightening as all claybanks do, but i just don't really see any grey in her


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## NdAppy

She is grey. There is no doubt about it. IMPO she is not a claybank at all but a grey. She is too far gone in the greying process in the picture to even take a guess at what color she might have really been...


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## Poseidon

I fail to see how you _don't_ see that she's grey. Her face looks exactly like her gray dam next to her and she is too light now to even guess what other color she could have been.


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## Chiilaa

Both mother and daughter are grey. What you are saying about "claybank" dun being darker because the daughter was darker is probably due to the greying process. It is really common for red based horses, such as a red dun, to go really really dark before they start going lighter again. It's also really common for grey to create the illusion of dun by leaving darker colour in the primitive marking areas.

For what it's worth - that picture of a "lobo dun" that you have attatched? It's a brown horse. That's the colour. It doesn't have any dun at all.


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## Nokotaheaven

I don't mean to be rude.. But you don't know what you're talking about.. If you saw these horses in person like i have you'd see you're wrong... And if she's not lobo dun then how come she has BLACK black points, and a dorsal stripe... and she's a light dun colour under her tail


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## Nokotaheaven

Also keep in mind these aren't normal domestic horses. They get a lot of primitive colours and markings that don't come in any domestic breed. And a lot of the colours and markings most people have never evenn heard of


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## Chiilaa

I don't mean to be rude either, but I do happen to know what I am talking about.

Lobo dun is a term that is thrown around to refer to brown based dun in some areas. However, it's like me saying "taffy" instead of silver dapple. It's a regional term. 

The horse attached does not have the dun gene at all. There is no dilution of the coat at all - the VERY FIRST thing a dun gene would do. Secondly, there are no dun factor markings. The photo gives a very clear view of the dorsal stripe you are talking about, and I can tell you right now, it is caused by countershading, and is often found in brown horses. A true dun has a clearly defined dorsal. There is none of the smuttiness the horse attached has. As for the lighter soft points (under the tail, on the flank, inside the elbow, around the muzzle, around the eye), these are caused by the brown colour. Brown horses are just like bay horses - they can and do have black points (legs, mane, tail etc). It is a form of the same gene that causes bay. 

This is the brown horse I am talking about.










As for these horses, they are both grey. How you do not see that, I do not know. The difference in shade is because the horses are A - different ages, and B - different base coloured. The one on the right may well have been born dun - that is not going to stop her from going grey. Grey is a blanket - it covers the horse's original colour.


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## Chiilaa

For reference:

This is a brown dun. Brown dun can often be mistaken for grulla. Some areas call brown dun lobo dun.









This is a red dun. Red dun is a chestnut horse which has a dun gene. It can also be called peach dun, apricot dun, or claybank dun.









I am sure that you can see the differences between these horses and the ones you have posted.


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## trainerunlimited

Chiilaa is right, the two horses in the one pics are most definitely grey. It is entirely possible that the horse was a dun before she greyed out, but that is irrevelent (sp?) now. Horses who were bay/dun/buckskin, etc, who grey out can keep their black points for a while. My friend has a dun horse that greyed out. He still has a prominent stripe with dark mane/tail/legs, so I think that is what you are looking at. Flashy boy too!


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## Nokotaheaven

okay okay... but I can tell you about the 'brown' horse... She is deffinitely dun... The grey horse (mother) in the 2nd pic foaled out a lobo dun while we had her, and he was the EXACT same as her... But when he lost his baby fur it was changing to grey.
And also the 'brown dun' you show is a regular domestic horse. That colour is really common in them... And there are different variations of colours too... To show that, here is the red dun colt we have, who is half brother to the claybank...


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## CLaPorte432

^^^ That horse isn't a red dun. Red Dun's will NEVER, EVER, EVER have a black mane, tail and points.

And his forelock should be illegal! It's beautiful!


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## Chiilaa

That horse, as CLaPorte said, is not a red dun. It's a bay dun. Red dun is a dun gene on a chestnut horse, so will have no black on them at all. Bay dun is exactly that - bay horse with a dun gene.

Before you start spouting about how we know nothing because the examples we have used are domestic horses, maybe you should do some research. There are some breeds of horse that are known to have different expression of some colours. However, the Nokota breed isn't one of them. It's barely even a breed - it's a localised family tree of mustangs. Domestic horses and feral or wild horses have no genetic difference and display colour the same way, using the same genetics.


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## Nokotaheaven

I have done research. He is pure kiger... 100% mustang. And the difference is there hasn't been overbreeding in mustangs like in domestic horses, which has pretty much eliminated many old colours and markings in them. Those colours and markings, however, still do show up in mustangs. And what Nokotas are, are descendant's of Chief Sitting Bull's herd. A herd of government horses mixed with wild mustangs and whatever else they had.
And so what you're saying is both my mom (who has over 30 years horse training experience) and I don't know anything about the colours of 3 horses that we've spent the last 2-3 years looking after...


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## whiskeynoo

There is a filly up at the stables last year that was born a dun colour ( i think i'm not a colour expert) She's now going grey i have some pictures, i'll try get them. 
Her mother was either super dooper dark bay or black and her father was really dark bay but had a grey mane. and grey in his tail.

I think the same is happening to you're filly


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## whiskeynoo

Found the photos of the filly, i don't have the pictures of her parents on this netbook unfortunately.
Sorry about the poor quality they were taken from my phone. 
This was taken last year at the end of December 








And these are really recent


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## Chiilaa

Nokotaheaven said:


> I have done research. He is pure kiger... 100% mustang. And the difference is there hasn't been overbreeding in mustangs like in domestic horses, which has pretty much eliminated many old colours and markings in them. Those colours and markings, however, still do show up in mustangs. And what Nokotas are, are descendant's of Chief Sitting Bull's herd. A herd of government horses mixed with wild mustangs and whatever else they had.
> And so what you're saying is both my mom (who has over 30 years horse training experience) and I don't know anything about the colours of 3 horses that we've spent the last 2-3 years looking after...


If you are still convinced, then yes, you are wrong about the colour of the horses. That doesn't matter in the long run, and is no reflection on you as a horse owner. The majority of horse owners are ignorant of the genetics of horse coat colours. That doesn't make them bad owners, it just shows that they don't really have an interest in genetics. 

Kiger is still mustang, and still a domestic horse for all intents and purposes as far as colouration is concerned. The genetics are the same. The potential colours are the same. The display of the colours is the same. The horse you pictured has not got a copy of the dun gene, therefore, he cannot possibly be dun. 

The two mares you have pictured are grey. Sure, the younger one could have been a red dun when she was born. Not disputing that at all. But she isn't one any more - she is a grey. Underneath she still has the dun gene, but the grey gene means she will eventually be completely white.


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## HorseLovinLady

I have no opinion on her color, but she sure is cute!! :smile:


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## Nokotaheaven

Ok about the dun guy... I talked it over on the weekend. There is no such thing as a bay dun. And I saw him on the weekend, he is an orangy coat colour, and without the dun stripings he would be completely that colour... his back legs are almost completely that colour. He's got the orange in his mane and tail too. The dark point some duns have above their nose, its not brown or black, it's red. His dorsal stripe is red too. He also has the typical black points on the tip of his ears, making him a dun. a red dun. And I'm not being ignorant of colour, I've looked into genes and colours lots. The domestic genes of domestic horses don't always occur in Kigers, since they were isolated for many many years in a canyon. They are pure spanish horses


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## NdAppy

Seriously? No such thing as a bay dun. Better tell that to all the horses out there that are bay duns then. 

There is *no difference* in the color genetics nor the presentation of those colors on the kigers or any other domestic horse.


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## Tryst

There is such a thing as a bay dun. It is a bay horse with the dun gene. It will lighten the body color, but leave the dark points and dun markings. I grew up in the area that the Kiger horses are from and have seen them in the wild, and while dun genes are very strong in those herds they are not all duns. And there is no color in the Kiger herds that does not exist in domestic horses.


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## Gremmy

Nokota where are you getting this information from? You say you've read up on colour genetics but then claim that a bay dun doesn't exist? Exactly what sources of information are you looking at? The "red" and "orangey coat colour" you're describing just sounds like sun bleaching to me.

There are lots of lovely mustangs out there (Nokota = regional variety of _mustang_), but to claim that they can express colours not seen in any domesticated horse is absurd. Horses have been domesticated for thousands of years, with mustangs only existing in North America for a few hundred and originating from _domesticated_ stock. Genetics do not dramatically change in that amount of time. Dun factor in a nokota, kiger, etc is genetically identical to dun factor in a quarter horse or norwegian fjord, etc. By all means appreciate these horses for what they are, appreciate their history, but remember that a horse is a horse is a horse.


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## Nokotaheaven

OK have any of u asked kiger registries then? And i was TOLD there are no bay duns.
And Gremmy, thank you. And as i found out the nokota itself is a combination of all kinds of horses that the natives could get their hands on, but were specifically developed by them for athleticsm and intelligence.


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## NdAppy

Sorry but bay dun DOES exist in the nokota horse. Just because the people breeding them are calling them by some other name does not negate the fact that a a bay horse with the dun gene is a bay dun. It just means that the people who are calling them some other color are trying to slap a label on them to make the horses seem uber special.

Sorry but they are not. They are a feral horse. They are no different than the rest of the feral horses.


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## Nokotaheaven

No he's not a nokota, he's a Kiger.
And they are VERY different when you work with them. For one, they grow slower, like mine is 3 now and we aren't starting her until next year. And they are SUPER intelligent. My horse, and the one she came from the states with are more intelligent than any other horse ive had


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## texasgal

Nakota - just because they don't recognize the color "bay dun" in the Kiger registry doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Registries choose which colors they are going to recognize/use to describe their horses.

You should probably take a breath and listen to these very knowledgeable people .. many of who have years of color genetic experience.

Your filly is really cute ... and she's gray..

~tg


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## NdAppy

Kigers are the same as nokotas. They are _feral_ horses. Their genetics are no different. There _are_ bay duns within the kiger mustangs as well. It's basic genetics. There are no special genes within the kiger mustangs than what is in other domesticated horses.


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## Nokotaheaven

True. And also keep in mind that kigers were isolated for many decades and had no interference with outside horses until people found them.


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## NdAppy

Kiger Diamond Rio


Bay Dun Kiger. so much for it not existing in kigers...


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## Nokotaheaven

That's just a regular dun.


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## NdAppy

No. It's a horse that is bay with the dun dilution, hence it is a bay dun. Referring to it as a dun is wrong.


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## CLaPorte432

The ignorance of some of the posts in this thread is over-whelming. *head desk*

Kiger's will have 3 different types of dun. "Dun" which is the SAME as bay dun, They just drop the BAY when saying it. Red Dun, and Grulla which they say is the same as "mouse gray". 

OP, Before you start preaching about colors and saying these horses are absolutely NOT grey, or NOT grulla, or NOT roan, or NOT bay dun, I highly recommend you sit down and do some research.

I think you need to find someone else to get your color information from as opposed to whoever you are getting it from now.

http://www.horsecolor.com/dilutions/dun/index.html
"Dun on a bay base color is variously called Dun, Bay Dun, Zebra Dun, Yellow Dun, and sometimes less common terms like "peanut-butter dun" (a pretty accurate description of the typical body color) and "buckskin dun" (meaning a dun that looks like a buckskin; not a genetically correct term -- if taken literally, that term would mean a horse with both a cream gene and a dun gene). They look similar to a buckskin, with yellowish bodies and black points. But the body tone generally tends to be more "flat" or "earth-toned" and less golden than a buckskin. Since both colors can have a wide range of shades, the best way to tell them apart is to look for the dun-markings. Although a buckskin may have a dorsal stripe, strong leg barring is diagnostic of dun. (In cases where there is still some doubt, genetic testing can now sort out the buckskins, duns, and dunskins.) The dun-factor markings on a bay dun will be whatever color the hair would have been in that place without any dilution -- typically a dark red for the dorsal stripe and any wither/neck stripes/shadows, and leg barring that is dark red higher up the leg and black closer to the knees/hocks."

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/dun.html

Dun


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## texasgal

Nakota .. the REGISTRY doesn't RECOGNIZE the color "bay dun" so the color "dun" so is the color he is REGISTERED as ..

It doesn't change his genetics..

He is most likely Bay Dun, as NDAppy said.

If you are happy with the labels that your registry uses, then all is well. If you want expert opinion, then ask people with the knowledge ... as you have.....

Be open enough to LISTEN. 

Genetic testing has enabled us to determine the exact genetic color of a horse. Gone are the days of all horses either just being Bay, Sorrel, Roan, Black, Buckskin and Gray (I realize I've left some out) .. There are sooooo many variations of colors, but they all come from basic genes and modifiers .. 

It's fascinating, if you want to learn.

Do your research .. listen to knowledgeable people.

Love your horses.

~tg


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## Nokotaheaven

A Kiger Mustang, the only pure Spanish mustang | Classicus Farm


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## NdAppy

The reason I keep pushing bay dun is the fact that people will use "dun" to name the color of both red duns and bay duns calling them both "dun" which is _not _correct.


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## texasgal

CLaPorte .. some folks don't have the knowledge base, or are just going off of what someone else knows because that's just how it's "always been" ..

There are many many many people who are clueless about the actual genetic color of their horses, call them by the wrong color name, and are perfectly happy with it ..


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## CLaPorte432

NdAppy said:


> The reason I keep pushing bay dun is the fact that people will use "dun" to name the color of both red duns and bay duns calling them both "dun" which is _not _correct.


Exactly. But "dun" is a completely outdated term, just like overo.

With genetic research now, they are able to distinguish the base color (bay, red, black) and then add the word dun.

You can call any horse with primitive markings "dun" no matter what the base coat is. But that's an extreme over-generalization to what dun is.


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## CLaPorte432

texasgal said:


> CLaPorte .. some folks don't have the knowledge base, or are just going off of what someone else knows because that's just how it's "always been" ..


Ignorant: lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact.


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## Nokotaheaven

Okay people im not being ignorant. I do know what I am talking about, and the more i think about it, the more i am thinking maybe bay dun is right. But the person who i get the info from has more than 30 years experience around horses. And lobo dun is also a distuingished colour of dun, its basically just a dark dun. And the one horse we had there was a lobo.. and one of our grey mares that we used to have also foaled a lobo who greyed out


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## texasgal

CLaPorte, I know what ignorant means. lol

I was referring to the ability to address someone, even in frustration, without calling names..


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## texasgal

Nakota - the point is that genetic testing has come sooooooooooo far in 30 years. 30 years of experience means NOTHING if you don't keep up with the PRESENT.

What was just Dun 30 years ago has now been pared down to red dun, bay dun, yellow dun, whatever now .. it's much more detailed.

You would learn TONS from these girls.... really.


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## Nokotaheaven

okay. I'm tired of arguing/disagreeing. And I'm not calling anyone names, I only did to that one person because they were very rude. And as I found out, I got a msg saying that both my comment and theirs were removed, and they were temporarily blocked from the site because of their comment.
And I'm sorry, I'm very frustrated/mad about a few things right now


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## NdAppy

Lobo dun is _not_ a color. It is a name slapped on a shade to make that horse seem some super rare color when it is not.


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## texasgal

Nakota - I wasn't referring to you calling anyone names .. 

I'm sorry you are frustrated/mad.


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## Nokotaheaven

Oh okay, sorry, I thought you were. And I am, but it's not just this whole convo causing it.
And I asked people what they thought about bay dun on a Kiger site, this is what was said
"There is a sooty gene, also called counter-shading, that puts back black into the coat. It's not understood really well but on some horses its like a darker blanket thrown over them, falling on the top surfaces of the horse. Think of a sooty buckskin. Sometimes it is all over evenly. Think of a dark chestnut or dark palomino. Since it is a separate gene it can occur with other genes, like the dun gene. Some experts say that if you don't have a light coat color it "can't" be dun. But a dun and a sooty gene cause a darker color, usually all over the horse. So if the horse has an eel stripe (a hard line dorsal) it is dun, regarless of coat color. The challenge is that the sooty gene also makes a dorsal, but it has fuzzy edges. When you have a horse that is so dark that you can't tell whether the dorsal is sharp or fuzzy you really can't say for sure that it is dun, but if it has other markings, like leg barring, ear barring or light hair inside the ears - it is likely dun. So a bay dun has a hard edged dorsal and a darker coat color."


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## Country Woman

she is unique to say the least


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## texasgal

Genetic testing would clear this up. It's fairly inexpensive and accurate.

Just be careful of people at the registry. They aren't always (and I'll even say RARELY) well informed about genetics. The ARE interested in promoting their breed, however.

Do some research on color genetics and testing. Have your horses tested. It would be exciting to see EXACTLY what genes are there, which ones are being expressed, and which ones might be hidden.

Good luck!


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## NdAppy

That answer is convoluted to say the least. Sooty has nothing to do with whether a horse is a bay dun or not. 

A bay dun is defined as being a black horse with agouti and dun. Sooty has nothing to do with that description.


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## Gremmy

Well that's confusing :? Are they saying that it's only called a bay dun because sooty can make it appear darker? Because that's not what's being said at all...

Dun only exists on top of a base colour - like red or black, or red with agouti (aka "bay"). A bay dun is a bay base coat with the dun dilution. A red dun is a red/chestnut/sorrel base coat with the dun dilution. Black = black dun/grullo/mouse grey etc. They are correct that sooty can make any horse appear darker, but that has nothing to do with why he's considered a bay dun.

Edit: I stand corrected on the bay! thanks ND, I thought I at least had that one down


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## Nokotaheaven

thank you texasgal, yeah i'd really like to. i will one day when i have the money.
And yeah ik Gremmy :/ and your right that it only exists on top of a base colour, but i think it could also be causing the black. i mean, his mane and tail are slightly bi-coloured, and there's no black on his legs where there's no zebra/dun factor. and his hind legs are almost completely orange. his stripes on his hind legs also almost seem to be kinda orange too. and his dorsal stripe is red, and so is the dun factoring above his nose. but his ear tips are black


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## NdAppy

Lol Gremmy there are only two base colors in horses, red and black with black being dominant over red. Everything else is a modification of those two colors.  Clear as mud right? :lol:


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## NdAppy

Nokota = can you get/post a picture of the horse you are attempting to describe?


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## Nokotaheaven

yes i can. but you can't see the red dorsal stripe without looking closely


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## Nokotaheaven

I tried choosing ones with different lighting to show it best.[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]


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## Gremmy

NdAppy said:


> Lol Gremmy there are only two base colors in horses, red and black with black being dominant over red. Everything else is a modification of those two colors.  Clear as mud right? :lol:


Well that is embarrassing, all these years I've had it in my head that agouti caused black points on a red based horse as opposed to minimizing black to those points! 

Now off to go read up on this until the world makes sense again...:lol:


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## NdAppy

Nokota - IMO he's a bay dun.


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## Nokotaheaven

Lol yea I'm not sure Gremmy.
And I'd agree 100% if it werent for all the red and the minimal black on the back legs


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## NdAppy

The little black means nothing. It just means that agouti is restricting the black further down the legs then it typically does.


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## Nokotaheaven

okay. the red?


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## CLaPorte432

A horse that is genetically red, isn't going to have the black mane and tail. He's not red dun. He's Bay+Dun= Bay Dun


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## Chiilaa

NdAppy said:


> The little black means nothing. It just means that agouti is restricting the black further down the legs then it typically does.


Add onto the variation that naturally occurs in all horse colours (different shades within the same colour, such as lower black in this case), dun also is a dilution. It is not uncommon for dark points on dun to be a more chocolate colour than black.


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## Lexiie

There was a dun at my barn and his points were dark.brown
Really cool lookimg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tryst

This site shows a lot of kigers --> http://www.dungenes.org/ including this gal below which is identified as bay dun. Check out how light her legs are - much like your guys. 








--> http://www.dungenes.org/images/009_6a.jpg for larger photo

And I think this page could be helpful for you --> http://www.dungenes.org/4_basic_dun_colors.htm


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## balsaroan

*....*

a grulla is a black horse with one cream gene, a perlino is with two, Your horse appears to be a grulla with the dun factors, the dun gene gives the horse a some or all of the "dun factors" which are ear stripes, zebra stripes, leg barring, the black lines across their withers and the dorsal stripe, the guard hairs on the tail and white hairs on mane, it is not considered a dun unless it has a dorsal nor if the dorsal fades in the summer, a dun must always have a dorsal no matter if red or black or bay. a buckskin is a bay with the cream gene, but there can also be a dun-skin and that is a buckskin that have 'dun's' in their parent history and they express the dun gene through the "dun factors"....clear as mud right???


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## CLaPorte432

balsaroan said:


> a grulla is a black horse with one cream gene, a perlino is with two, Your horse appears to be a grulla with the dun factors, the dun gene gives the horse a some or all of the "dun factors" which are ear stripes, zebra stripes, leg barring, the black lines across their withers and the dorsal stripe, the guard hairs on the tail and white hairs on mane, it is not considered a dun unless it has a dorsal nor if the dorsal fades in the summer, a dun must always have a dorsal no matter if red or black or bay. a buckskin is a bay with the cream gene, but there can also be a dun-skin and that is a buckskin that have 'dun's' in their parent history and they express the dun gene through the "dun factors"....clear as mud right???


Wrong. 

A grulla does NOT carry cream. It's Black + Dun.

Perlino is Bay + 2 Cream Genes.

Smokey Black is Black + 1 Cream Gene.


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## Chiilaa

balsaroan said:


> a grulla is a black horse with one cream gene, a perlino is with two, Your horse appears to be a grulla with the dun factors, the dun gene gives the horse a some or all of the "dun factors" which are ear stripes, zebra stripes, leg barring, the black lines across their withers and the dorsal stripe, the guard hairs on the tail and white hairs on mane, it is not considered a dun unless it has a dorsal nor if the dorsal fades in the summer, a dun must always have a dorsal no matter if red or black or bay. a buckskin is a bay with the cream gene, but there can also be a dun-skin and that is a buckskin that have 'dun's' in their parent history and they express the dun gene through the "dun factors"....clear as mud right???


Grulla is not black with a cream gene. Black with a cream gene is smoky black, sometimes called black buckskin. Grulla is a black horse with one or two dun genes. Also, a black horse with double cream gene is a smoky cream - perlino is a bay horse with double cream.


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## balsaroan

*...*

Yes, I knew that.. perlino buckskin bay, cremello, palomino , sorrel, its been awhile but you don't have to be so rude about it! gosh, it would seem like I shot a puppy the way you all are biting at my throat!!!! Chill out!


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## Chiilaa

No one is biting your head off. Sorry if it felt that way, it can be a bit intimidating when two people post to correct someone else. Unfortunately, both CLaPorte and I posted at the same time. If either of us had posted clearly first, the other would not have posted. I apologise for making you feel ganged up on, it was not either of our's intentions. 

Aside from the double post, no one was rude to you. Correcting someone's mistakes, regardless of those mistakes being just misworded or actually wrong, is not rude.


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## balsaroan

*...*

AND you are wrong as well, a grulla can express the cream gene! Ill give you the link but here is a little excerpt so you don't have to search. : 

A grulla has a solid black, non-bay, non-brown (aa) base with one or two dun genes added. The body color tends to be what is commonly called dove-grey, but can vary from nearly black to brownish to silver. It may take on a golden or olive cast if there is a cream gene also present (smoky grulla). The mane, tail and markings described above will be black or a darker shade of the body color.

4 Dun Colors


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## Poseidon

A grulla with a cream gene is a different color. They are not wrong. Black and smoky black are different because smoky black has the cream gene. Same with grulla. Black + dun = grulla. Black + dun + cream = smoky grulla. They may not look very different because one copy of cream will hide on black.

And I do not get what that site is trying to get at with "4 true dun colors". Dun is a dilution gene and can affect any coat color. If you want a "true" dun, the only two would be red dun and grulla because bay and brown are both black + an agouti gene.


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## balsaroan

*...*

No, I agree, correcting is not wrong thats how everyone learns, but what is wrong is when a "tone" is gotten. I'm sure you will say there was no tone so whatever, lets just drop it. And Poseidon they said black with cream is smokey, and were excluding the possibility of a grulla expressing the cream gene.


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## Chiilaa

Grulla, as Poseidon said, can have a cream gene. None of us were disputing that. I was correcting the implcation (which I think was accidental, and not at all intentional) in your original post that grulla was caused by the cream gene. I can tell from your further posts that you don't think that. 

However, as you say, "tone" can take many forms on the internet, and what I get as the "feeling" of a post, can be completely different to what you feel as a result of the same post. It's part of being human


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## CLaPorte432

There was no tone on my part. I apoligize if you took it that way. I said "wrong." (with a period) If I were to have said "Wrong!" (with an exclamation point) Then I can see where a tone could be implied. :-(

I was simply stating a fact based on what you said in your original post. It is wrong to say that Grulla is black + cream. Nothing was ever said about a "Smokey Grulla" in that post but yes they do exist. Black + Cream + Dun. 

If anything was originally said about a smokey grulla, I never would have contradicted you. It's just saying that grulla is black + cream is incorrect and we don't want to confuse anyone into thinking otherwise.


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## balsaroan

*...*

Cool cool,  and BTW nice to meet you all...


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## haviris

balsaroan said:


> AND you are wrong as well, a grulla can express the cream gene!


Actually I wouldn't say grulla can express a cream gene, it can hide a cream gene, just like black.


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## Allison Finch

Nakoda, I have been around horses for over fifty years...professionally showing and training for almost 40. While I consider myself a very knowledgeable horsewoman, one thing I know very little about is color genetics.

One thing I DO know, however, is NEVER to argue color genetics with Chiilaa and several other posters here. I do know they have spent enough time really researching this area to know what they are talking about. I, as many others, would be totally underqualified to argue here.

As for your grey horses coming from another color.....most greys start out as "another color". The stallion I am riding in my avatar was homozygous for grey. He could produce no other color. So, when my bay mare gave birth to this foal (by the stallion in question).....










Yup, he sure looked bay, just like momma. But I KNEW he was gray. Sure enough, this is what he turned into....













BUT, if Chiilaa told me that this horse was a zebra, I doubt I would argue with her!!! :wink:


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## ThirteenAcres

The subject of greys is something that I ponder very, very often now that I own a grey. I've never seen a horse change colors as often as she does. In fact, until owning a grey, I don't think I ever understood that they always start as another color and grey out as they mature. I recently was given pictures of my girl from birth to when I received her and was SHOCKED by how brilliantly "sorrel" she was up until she was 2. Even after a few months she has progressed from what I (and I am using my own color explanation, nothing correct to genetic colors I'm sure) a steel grey to what she is now. Every week she has more and more defined white spots, and is now developing almost black points down her legs.

It is so freaking interesting to look into color genetics. I never paid much attention, but having this "horse of a different color" now, I have become fascinated by what decides colors!


Minutes Old









Approx 1 year old










Present as of March


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## Nokotaheaven

Yeah. Greys uusually do start out as another colour. We had a grey mare (born black) foal a lobo dun colt, and by the time he was 6 months old he was half grey. It is also interesting to see how much time it takes a horse to grey out, especially when they start. I know the main indicator is all the white around the eyes. My filly started around her eyes and on the outskirts of her claze. It's been interesting to watch the process


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## Nokotaheaven

And sorry to all whom i havent replied to. As dumb as this sounds my computer is gunna die any second, so I do not have time :/


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## Nokotaheaven

And about the cream genes... All I know about them is that a buckskin is a bay with one cream gene. A perlino is a bay with two. A palomino is a chestnit with one, and a cremello is a chestnut with to. That's all I know


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## goodhrs

I would say she is a gray that displays dun factor.


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## Nokotaheaven

Yeah I think she is. I just hope the dun stays like it is on our claybank


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## NdAppy

The dun wont stay. The grey will probably make it stand out more/"brighter" for a time, but it _will_ be erased by the grey.


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## Nokotaheaven

Aww.... N yea it's already hard to see her body stripes now. She was extremely extremely sick in this photo, but it shows how much her coat has changed since last summer.


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## EmilyJoy

Chiilaa said:


> If you are still convinced, then yes, you are wrong about the colour of the horses. That doesn't matter in the long run, and is no reflection on you as a horse owner. The majority of horse owners are ignorant of the genetics of horse coat colours. That doesn't make them bad owners, it just shows that they don't really have an interest in genetics.
> 
> Kiger is still mustang, and still a domestic horse for all intents and purposes as far as colouration is concerned. The genetics are the same. The potential colours are the same. The display of the colours is the same. The horse you pictured has not got a copy of the dun gene, therefore, he cannot possibly be dun.
> 
> The two mares you have pictured are grey. Sure, the younger one could have been a red dun when she was born. Not disputing that at all. But she isn't one any more - she is a grey. Underneath she still has the dun gene, but the grey gene means she will eventually be completely white.


 I _would _like to have a chart or something that says this color x with this color most likely = this color... :lol:

Question, what is a line-back dun? Simply any dun that has a line on it's back? How about a steel dust? What do they look like?


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## Nokotaheaven

Yea a line back dun is a dun with a line on its back. And as for steel dust I'm not sure.. the only steel dust horse i know of was a racing Quarter Horse named steel dust


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## EmilyJoy

Gremmy said:


> Well that is embarrassing, all these years I've had it in my head that agouti caused black points on a red based horse as opposed to minimizing black to those points!
> 
> Now off to go read up on this until the world makes sense again...:lol:


I wish black was the dominate gene... Not enough black horses!


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## Nokotaheaven

Lol I say there's not enough Cremellos


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## EmilyJoy

Chiilaa said:


> Grulla is not black with a cream gene. Black with a cream gene is smoky black, sometimes called black buckskin. Grulla is a black horse with one or two dun genes. Also, a black horse with double cream gene is a smoky cream - perlino is a bay horse with double cream.


Can you post a picture of a smoky black? It sounds pretty.

Sorry for so many posts on top of each other...I haven't figured out how to "group" them all into one post..:?


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## Chiilaa

Well, how confused would you be if I told you that black IS the dominant gene? Also, as far as smoky black, they can look like an ordinary black horse. It's really annoying. A single copy of cream doesn't do jack to black really, that's why buckskins still have black points. Stupid cream :-(

These horses are all smoky black.


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## EmilyJoy

Oh! I thought they would be a smoky/blue/black horse... 

The grey horse that someone posted (I think on pg 4?) (The non-silver grulla ) is that what you would consider a "Steel Dust? I always thought that's what it was... It's a pretty color whatever it is...

The color stuff is really interesting...I probably should start a new thread instead of stealing this one...


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## Poseidon

EmilyJoy said:


> Question, what is a line-back dun? Simply any dun that has a line on it's back? How about a steel dust? What do they look like?


All duns are "line-back duns". I'm not sure where that name came from because a horse _must_ have a dorsal stripe, in addition to other markings, to be a dun. 

Steel dust is not a color. I'm not sure where you got the term (if someone else said it earlier in the thread or someone told you it was a color). It may have been used to refer to a shade of gray in the graying process, which isn't uncommon (ie, rose gray). But all gray horses are just that: gray. Rose gray or "steel dust" is nothing fancy. It's still a gray horse. ETA: A google search of "steel dust horse" brings up pictures of a horse named Steel Dust and a few grullas. No, those are grulla horses. Nothing special about them.

And the non-silver grulla mentioned previously is not referred to as silver because there is a color gene named Silver that acts different, although that grulla may actually be colored what we consider to be the color silver.


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## Nokotaheaven

About the steel dust being a colour... Reading that last comment it occurred to me that there is the teim 'steel grey', so maybe steel dust is another term for that. But all I know is steel dust was a racing quarter horse. The story with him racing a horse named Shiloh is pretty famous in the quarter horse world, though besides the fact they were the two top racehorses at that time, I'm not sure why.


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## EmilyJoy

Both are "western" handles that I've wondered about...

Yeah I assumed it was a term for a gray...


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## EmilyJoy

Poseidon said:


> All duns are "line-back duns". I'm not sure where that name came from because a horse _must_ have a dorsal stripe, in addition to other markings, to be a dun.
> 
> Steel dust is not a color. I'm not sure where you got the term (if someone else said it earlier in the thread or someone told you it was a color). It may have been used to refer to a shade of gray in the graying process, which isn't uncommon (ie, rose gray). But all gray horses are just that: gray. Rose gray or "steel dust" is nothing fancy. It's still a gray horse. ETA: A google search of "steel dust horse" brings up pictures of a horse named Steel Dust and a few grullas. No, those are grulla horses. Nothing special about them.
> 
> And the non-silver grulla mentioned previously is not referred to as silver because there is a color gene named Silver that acts different, although that grulla may actually be colored what we consider to be the color silver.


So the horse on pg. 4 is considered silver?


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## NdAppy

EmilyJoy said:


> So the horse on pg. 4 is considered silver?


NO. It is a name that someone slapped on that shade of grulla.

Silver should only be applied to horses that are carrying/expressive the silver gene.


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## Nokotaheaven

how can you tell if it is?


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## texasgal

The silver, silver dapple, chocolate flax or Taffy gene.


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## EmilyJoy

So what does a horse with the silver gene look like compared to grulla?

Thanks TX you posted ahead of me!

So someone said you could send a sample of the horses mane into somwhere to have the genes examined...is that correct? If so who do you send it to and for how much?


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## Nokotaheaven

Oh yea I forgot how it shows up in the mane! thank you texasgal for the link.
And horses with the silver gene i believe can be any colour, but will have a bi-coloured mane and tail, where the ends are a lighter cream colour, a grulla can have a bi-coloured mane, but the lighter colours would show up more towards the top of the mane. Like a dun. Rocky Mountain horses are basically brown horses with the silver gene i believe


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## NdAppy

Wrong. Totally wrong nokota. Please do some research before proclaiming what a gene does or does not do. 

Silver tends to lighten the whole mane/tail. In some cases bleaching them of color completely. Silver *only* affects black based horses and does not show on red (similar to agouti). 

As for testing US Davis does testing and so does Animal Genetics. Those would be the two companies I would go with.


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## whiskeynoo

so would you say this guy was carrying the silver gene. excuse his mane, i had literally de tangled it before he was put out to the field, then a few days later BAM.


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## Gremmy

He looks like he's going grey to me


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## Poseidon

Black + Dun = Grulla









Black + Silver = Silver Dapple


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## Golden Horse

OOHH pretty horse, can I have a cookie.

Those of you arguing with the color gurus, you best go do your homework first because some of you are making yourselves look silly:wink:


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## Nokotaheaven

I have done some research. The silvers I've seen are like rocky mouintain horses, and what i was describing was in a pic on that link. and i also said 'i believe', because im not 100% on it


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## Poseidon

GH, you should have come down to visit about 6 months and taken the silver dapple mini mare my BOs had.


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## Golden Horse

<----------*MELTS* at idea of silver dapple mini mare:thumbsup:


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## Chiilaa

whiskeynoo said:


> so would you say this guy was carrying the silver gene. excuse his mane, i had literally de tangled it before he was put out to the field, then a few days later BAM.
> View attachment 97005


Oh he is delish. And definitely silver. See those white eyelashes? That is a marker for silver as well as the mane and tail being lightened. Plus the blueish shade to his coat. Yum!


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## Nokotaheaven

wow i thought this thread had been deleted lol


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## NdAppy

Why would you think that? ...


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## Nokotaheaven

Just last time i looked for it i couldn't find it


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## Golden Horse

NdAppy said:


> Why would you think that? ...


Wishful thinking?

But that wouldn't explain bumping it it up again just to say it's here *scratches head*


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## Nokotaheaven

yeahhh i don't know. but this as my first ever thread. just thought for a month it was gone i guess is all


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