# He just exploded...



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This is what I recently posted to help keep a horse from dropping its head and bucking hard. It is not adaptable to an English saddle because a horse really trying hard to buck will pull an English saddle over its withers. [Been there -- done that -- didn't do it again.]



> Cherie said:
> 
> 
> > I finally found a way to get this photo in here. I have mentioned it several times before, but could not get the copy I had of it to copy and paste. I finally got it moved to photobucket and then it moved here.
> ...


In addition, I would teach this horse that I could 'take his head away from him. This means that you teach what is now called a 'one rein stop' from all three gaits and from the ground. When a horse has been thoroughly taught to stop dead still and give you its head, it will interrupt any behavior. It is like installing an 'off switch'. A horse that knows 'the drill' really well, will do a 'half halt' followed by a complete stop when you just sit back and slide one hand down one rein. 

I would start working on this now and the next time you ride him. I would also wear his butt out before I got on him again. I know this is not a permanent solution, but under the circumstances, I think he really needs a lot of 'air knocked out of him' before you step on him again.

I would also work his butt off with the 'over-check' thingy on him when you do. While you may not want to ride in a stock saddle, they are a LOT more secure and are the best saddle for tackling a horse that wants to buck. 

When we had horses like this here, we worked them hard with the over-check. Then rode them pretty hard in the round pen. Then headed to the hills and rode them up and down canyons for about 3 or 4 hours. I wanted their head hanging after the next ride -- maybe 2 or 3 rides.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

I'll start with the obvious - you positive there wasn't something irritating (burr, bee, hairball, etc.) under the saddle pad, girth or leg wraps? Nothing different on you such as spurs, or even pointy toed boots that "goosed" him during mounting?

Sorry you had to experience that


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I can't say it any better than Cherie just did. The main thing to be sure of is that you will be in good enough condition to be able to stick and ride out whatever he throws at you and then make him work til he thinks he's going to die and begs for mercy. Then work him some more.

***Almost forgot to ask. We're you wearing spurs? I accidentally gigged the tar out of my patient old man as I was mounting and even he gave me "what for" and the ride of my life as pay back.***


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Cherie, I am so, so glad you responded. Normally, I use an endurance saddle on him, but I do plan on putting the stock saddle on after today. I use one with every horse except him. I think wearing him out is a very good idea, at least for the next couple rides. He normally responds well to a one rein stop, but I'll certainly be working on it more since it didn't work so well today. 

The plan I have been putting together in my head is to pony him for a 3ish hour ride, in the stock saddle, and then ride. I have ponied him before and he does fine, but it should be an effective way to wear him out and still ride the horses I need to ride tomorrow. I will study your over-check system a bit more and see if I can put something like that together.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Cynical25 said:


> I'll start with the obvious - you positive there wasn't something irritating (burr, bee, hairball, etc.) under the saddle pad, girth or leg wraps? Nothing different on you such as spurs, or even pointy toed boots that "goosed" him during mounting?
> 
> Sorry you had to experience that


 I always check the pad and girth- nothing there. I checked again when I untacked him. No spurs, same boots as always. No bees out yet. Believe me, if there was a way for me to excuse it as something other than behavioral, I would love to!


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## laurapratt01 (Oct 3, 2012)

First of all, I HATE it when that happens.. Just when you feel like you know a horse, BANG personality change!
I'm glad you weren't more seriously injured! It's one thing when you expect it and can be prepared but it's a whole different ball game when it comes out of nowhere. One thing is for sure, you will be ready next time.

I've used a similar device to what Cherie posted on a horse that was a known bucker. It does work to a large extent. They can still buck and shimmy and pop up but they won't bronc out on you. It could be a very useful tool. You want it tight but make sure it's not too tight or they could feel trapped and panic. I like how it's adjusted in Cherie's picture.

I also feel as if the one rein stop would be a useful tool. It will take some training before it's second nature to you both and that doesn't really help for the first post explosion ride. 

Mostly, I think you just need to stay on. If I were you I would almost be hoping that he explodes again and that you can correct it and go along your merry way because if he doesn't then who knows when or if he'll do it again, right?
Yep, just stay on (sounds easy doesn't it?). 
Pay little mind to his safety and focus on your own. Also, make him continue what you were doing. If he doesn't explode until after you start trotting make him keep trotting after his bucking fit. Also, if you're at all like me the advice I can give you is don't become so determined (or stubborn) that you don't consider your own safety. If you can't fix this horse, move on. No horse is worth your life. Sounds like scary business. Let us know how it goes.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

laurapratt01 said:


> Mostly, I think you just need to stay on. If I were you I would almost be hoping that he explodes again and that you can correct it and go along your merry way because if he doesn't then who knows when or if he'll do it again, right?
> Yep, just stay on (sounds easy doesn't it?).
> Pay little mind to his safety and focus on your own. Also, make him continue what you were doing. If he doesn't explode until after you start trotting make him keep trotting after his bucking fit. Also, if you're at all like me the advice I can give you is don't become so determined (or stubborn) that you don't consider your own safety. If you can't fix this horse, move on. No horse is worth your life. Sounds like scary business. Let us know how it goes.


 His bucks are BIG, but if I can catch him at it quickly, I do think I can stay on. I am hoping he tries it again, so I can correct it (or over correct it). I'm a little bit mad and very stubborn, so I'm not scared at this point. I think that if I had the wonderful, deep seated roping saddle with bucking rolls that I use on everyone else, I could have stuck it, just because I wouldn't have to try so hard to stay on, and I could put more energy in getting his focus. If I can't fix it, or get hurt badly enough that it affects my ability to work with my other horses/clients, I will call it quits.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Are you 100% positive that when you mounted, his focus was on you and “with you” and not temporarily 100% “redirected”? just a thought.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

His focus wasn't on me at all, no question about it. But that is never acceptable behavior, distracted or not. If he had pricked his ears forward and looked at something else and ignored a cue, I wouldn't be concerned. But broncing out because he was distracted, or just being ****y, or whatever happened is never okay.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

When you say he is not in pain do you know for sure? Could it be that he got hurt in the pasture or something when he was out? I am taking it that his teeth have been done as well?

Good luck, the last colt I brought along, I kept waiting for the explosion, because until it comes I always wonder if it is being stored up somewhere.

Glad you aren't to badly hurt, and good luck with the next try.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> When you say he is not in pain do you know for sure? Could it be that he got hurt in the pasture or something when he was out? I am taking it that his teeth have been done as well?
> .


I'm as sure as I can be. His teeth are up to date as well. There is always a small possibility he hurt something in the pasture, but we had been working for 20ish minutes all tacked up doing transitions on the lunge- he was stretching out and extending and worked in all 3 gaits and didn't exhibit any signs of pain. He was also fine when I rode him Friday. I seriously doubt it was out of pain.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Could he have an abcess? THe reason I ask is I had a young horse I was starting, raised him from a foal and started riding him lightly when he was 3 yrs old. He was very easy to start and came along very well. I even gave "pony rides" for my daughter's young friends one day and he was so good at that sort of thing. The next day I got on him and he exploded and tossed me off. I got back on and the same thing, this was so uncharacteristic of him and I was amazed. Got my husband to hold him and got on him again but that was all, untacked him and the next day he was lame, called the vet and it was an abcess . I felt so bad and he was not showing any lameness the day before, but when it was cleared up he was his usual well behaved boy again.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

EquineObsessed said:


> His focus wasn't on me at all, no question about it. But that is never acceptable behavior, distracted or not. If he had pricked his ears forward and looked at something else and ignored a cue, I wouldn't be concerned. But broncing out because he was distracted, or just being ****y, or whatever happened is never okay.


Idk. Everyone has their own level of what they will tolerate, but I will give allowances for some stuff. A very similar thing happened to me once, and the horse was 110% trained, he wasn't a kids horse, no - but he was solid. And, it only ever happened _once_. As I was just about to get on, I got interrupted and my focus redirected behind me and the matter subsequently irritated me (i.e., I was in a huff). He and I were still both standing precisely where I had “left off”, and I abruptly mounted him w/o considering where _his_ focus might have wondered to. He went nutters in mid “swing” up, so I easily and happily jumped off – and he continued for a short while to go off like a bottle rocket. Another pair of eyes pointed out that he was a million miles away when I swung up, stargazing off to the opposing side at some horses and cattle off in the distance. He got control of himself, I got on, all was well. I chalked it up to, “let that be a lesson to me”. :wink:


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

I don't think so Woodhaven, as he was moving nicely beforehand. I didn't even move with him, I just swung on and he went nuts.

However, my boss has decided she doesn't want to risk me getting hurt, and is offering him as a companion horse, or for an experienced trainer looking for a project. I think she is frustrated because we've had people look at him, try him, like him, and he's been so good, and now we can't sell him.

She thinks I can work through it, but says that if whoever buys him doesn't keep firm with him and he tests them by bucking out like that, people aren't going to want to send horses to us. Which makes sense, our barn is just starting to get attention so we do have to be careful. And since she bought him and is paying for all of his care, it's her call. If I were keeping him, I would work through it. It's really disappointing, and I don't necessarily agree, but reality sucks! 

I am going to work him tomorrow anyway, just so he doesn't 'win'. At any rate, I've learned a lot from him, and we did make a huge amount of progress together. When I work with a similar horse, I know what my next steps are. Next time, I'm probably not going to tell her I got tossed!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

EquineObsessed said:


> Next time, I'm probably not going to tell her I got tossed!


Do yourself a favor and NEVER try to get away with that. Lying by omission is just as bad as by commission. One thing I will never tolerate from an employee is lying, and not telling me my horse blew a gasket and tossed you hard is a major omission. If/when I found out, I would fire that employee instantly.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

I would teach this horse that I could 'take his head away from him. 




This is probably the best "button" anyone could ever install on a horse.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I had a horse do that to me. He was such a lovely mover and so beautiful, I was thrilled his owner wanted me to work with him. His owner was terrified of him (as he could be pushy), but he had at one point been trained- as he knew to back, give to pressure and all basic groundwork. He didn't challenge me at all, and was respectful as soon as I walked in his paddock. He lunged fine, stood for saddling/mounting. I walked and trotted him in circles and he was fine. 

One day I went out to work with him and out of the blue he turned into a bronco- ran bucking all the way across the arena and flung me into the fence. Ouch. I tried riding him one more time, and he did it again- only I landed on my head. My helmet saved my life. 

I decided it was not worth risking my life to deal with a horse like that. 

I had one other horse do that - named Buck. I think his issue was more of a mental instability than anything else. You could ride him for hours, but sometimes he would get this look on his face and the next thing you know he is off the ground. He never looked angry, he would ***** his ears and get this look in his eyes. He taught me to really ride- he could do the airs above the ground, spin and bolt the other way, buck, kick... It would happen out of the blue- nothing to spook at. No triggers. He did it with my trainer at a horse show- reared straight up with her. He got my friend thrown off her horse when he decided to act up and scared her horse into spooking. We were cantering and he decided to spin and bolt the other way. 

He was started right, no pain issues, and vetted sound. I really think it was a mental issue. He was just too unpredictable to make a good riding horse. I sent him back to his owners. 

The only other thing I can think of that would cause bucking is kissing spines- or something that causes intense shooting pain. Have you palpated his back?


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Do yourself a favor and NEVER try to get away with that. Lying by omission is just as bad as by commission. One thing I will never tolerate from an employee is lying, and not telling me my horse blew a gasket and tossed you hard is a major omission. If/when I found out, I would fire that employee instantly.


 I'll tell, I'm just frustrated! Until we do rehome him, I am going to keep working him hard. I'll let you all know how it goes.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Have someone trailer you and horse at least 50 mi from home and ride him home. It will take the stupid out of him. People don't ride horses hard enough to really tire them out. I suspect he rebelled at your training schedule: he'd had enough.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

EquineObsessed said:


> I don't think so Woodhaven, as he was moving nicely beforehand. I didn't even move with him, I just swung on and he went nuts.
> 
> However, my boss has decided she doesn't want to risk me getting hurt, *and is offering him as a companion horse, or for an experienced trainer looking for a project.* I think she is frustrated because we've had people look at him, try him, like him, and he's been so good, and now we can't sell him.
> 
> ...


 
So, the horse blows once, despite having had good behaviour so far, and he's automatically off the riding market? Call me crazy, but most horses I've had thrown my way to ride through, and my own horses int he beginning, would be sitting in fields.

From the sound of it, this was completely out of character. Sure, it shouldn't have happened, but it did. Don't write him off from one incident, work to find out whay and go from there.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

I agree with you completely. That's why I plan on continuing to work with him- try to change her mind. But it is her call. I understand her frustration, I'm frustrated too. I do want to work through it, I think I'll learn a lot and that was the whole point of getting projects. If he works nicely for the next few days, she might change her mind. I hope so. I think it's ridiculous to give up after one incident.


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## redrose1 (Jan 17, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I can't say it any better than Cherie just did. The main thing to be sure of is that you will be in good enough condition to be able to stick and ride out whatever he throws at you and then make him work til he thinks he's going to die and begs for mercy. Then work him some more.
> 
> ***Almost forgot to ask. We're you wearing spurs? I accidentally gigged the tar out of my patient old man as I was mounting and even he gave me "what for" and the ride of my life as pay back.***



Even if you were not wearing spurs... one time mine went to buck because of excess energy. And it caught me off guard and my feet went back and accidently grabbed onto his sides (further back) which got him going even more then. Wouldn't have if my feet had been off him.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

You said he was pulled from Camelot, right? How long have you been working with him? 

If you have ruled out tack fit, pain and other bizarre happenstance, maybe this is the behavior that landed him at Camelot?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I was gonna say.. I see some nice horses going thru that sale ring. There is usually a reason a horse is at an auction. It may be a physical issue, it may be a financial issue, it may be someone died and the horse was sold or it may be a HORSE issue. 

When I see a really nice one I assume the first or the last.


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## Saddlebred11 (Mar 27, 2014)

My instructor will sometimes take a hay bale twine and tie it to the saddle and to the horse's bit/bridle. Doesn't allow horse to buck and works like an overcheck does on a driving bridle(this pony is also a driving pony). That could HELP though it is not solving the problem. Also how long has the other horse been gone? Is he missing his buddy?


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Personally, I'd just hop back on and continue with his rides like nothing happened. Doesn't sound like it's a habit and I wouldn't toss him out of a riding position. I've had quite a few just explode out of nowhere and be just fine the rest of the time I've worked with them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Camelot is definitely a hit or miss. We got him at the beginning of January. He was very nervous and exploded a lot. When I started riding him, his whole demeanor changed; he became calm, confident, more personable and has been this steady eddy. The past few days he's been more nervous than usual. Yesterday, he exploded. He used to do that when he saw a saddle, but again, I've been riding him at least four to five days a week since the beginning of February. 

Today, I didn't get to work him. My boss had the vet come out and he exploded again waiting in the stall. He bucked and bucked and bucked and then reared and got his hoof stuck in the rafters. He has NEVER done anything like that and there was zero stimulus. Just like yesterday. It's almost like he's just going crazy. He cut his leg up pretty well, so I didn't do anything with him after. I'm pretty much in shock. Maybe the honeymoon period is over and this is what he is. Or maybe the vet will find something. I don't know, but I'm pretty discouraged. I really thought it was a freak thing that wouldn't repeat, just because he had been doing SO well. I'm not sure where to go from here.


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

I am just going to throw this out there but has he been checked for stomach ulcers? They can come and go and cause a host of weird off the wall behaviour changes. They are very painful to horses and maybe this could be your issue?
Just a thought 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

cowgirl4753 said:


> I am just going to throw this out there but has he been checked for stomach ulcers? They can come and go and cause a host of weird off the wall behaviour changes. They are very painful to horses and maybe this could be your issue?
> Just a thought
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
That's one of the things the vet checked for yesterday. I don't see it as a pain thing, but its definitely best to check everything thoroughly, especially since he exploded again without a rider or saddle in sight.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Quite honestly the horse could have something like a brain tumor or other issue such as encephylitis or Moon Blindness or some tick born disease that has crossed the blood-brain barrier. Are his pupils responding to a flash light the same? 

I bet there is something deep in this horse going wrong.. and I suspect neurological.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

I suspect the same thing. I honestly can't describe his behavior in any way other than he's acting like he is losing his mind. Spooking at things he didn't used to spook at (Today he exploded again when we passed the tractor), the random explosions, etc. We did do a lymes test yesterday so hopefully the blood work will come in soon. Lyme's is pretty common here, so that's the first test we're running. We'll start checking for other possibilities if that checks out. Unfortunately, auction horses are hit or miss. We pulled three out, and the other two are perfectly fine, quiet, sane horses.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Was this horse thinner and in worse physical condition when you started with him? 
Cherie


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

No, he was a very good weight, well muscled, all clipped up. These are pics from when we first got him, his auction pic and his second or third day with us.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I check their website and he actually caught my eye. He does not appear to be a nutty type horse in these photos. In fact, he looks like the solid steady type. 

I suspect the reason he was at Camelot is this behavior. I still suspect something is very wrong inside this horse and the answer may be.... well.. end of life. The risk you take getting a horse from an auction. 

Maybe sell him to a rodeo. There are horses that are career buckers.. they actually enjoy bucking.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

He is gorgeous! He looks like he came off of a rodeo string to me. Just my first impression after your story. Probably all in my head, though. 

Good Luck to you, and him. Such a shame a lovely horse can't recognize a good thing when he has it.....

Nancy


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

A lot of horses have 'come aparts' when they get fattened up. That is why I asked. Others just have come aparts for no apparent reason at all. The first time they did do it, they usually had a reason. After that, they just do it because they do it.

I'll bet he has done it before and he will do it more often now that it has worked for him.

Horses are creatures of habit. Once something has set one off and he has 'blown up' and got someone off, he will usually try it again, with less and less provocation. When I trained for the public, it was not uncommon to get horses like this in. They usually did not 'blow up' on the first ride. They did not quit doing it (sometimes just once in a while) until they ran into a rider that made it really tough on them for doing it. You usually had to put the 'fear of god' in one a time or two.


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## TrailTraveler (Jan 4, 2014)

EquineObsessed said:


> No, he was a very good weight, well muscled, all clipped up. These are pics from when we first got him, his auction pic and his second or third day with us.


Oh, my. The fact that he was clipped and well-muscled seems to indicate that he was ridden and well cared for. And the fact that he was at auction rather than sold privately? Well, to me, that seems to suggest that the owner couldn't, in good conscience, sell him as rideable. I think you've figured out why.

He is, indeed, a beautiful horse. 

What a shame.... :-(


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

It seems like we found how he got sent to auction. The problem is that he knows it works, which means that is how he is going to test a rider. His bucks aren't little crow hops, they are targeted- he knows how to get someone off his back. I actually thought about him being a rodeo horse. Good career option!

I'm willing to put in the work and try to break him of it, but it's just not my call, so hopefully my boss comes around. He's not got the world's best confirmation, but he's a good, solid size with a friendly personality, unless he wants you to hit the dirt! On the trails he'll go over anything, he doesn't spook and he is a comfy ride.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

That is such a shame-he looks so steady, & ready to go. But exploding w/just a mount-I hate that-it's happened to me, & makes one very nervous about mounting again.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

He is drop dead gorgeous, but there are thousands of drop dead gorgeous horses out there needing an upgrade, know when to cut your losses, find a cowboy who has rodeo links, I had a guy who was interested in Ben who was either going to turn him into a ranch horse, or if he wouldn't work, then into a bucking horse.

It isn't like you owe this horse anything, you gave him a chance, sounds like he isn't too keen on taking it.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

If becoming a trainer is your goal, isn't it worth considering that there's something that you missed with this horse? Something that might come up again on future horses if not solved now? What kind of trainer do you want to be? One who can really get inside their head, or one that relies on gimmicks like overcheck lines that only cover up the symptoms of root causes? Or maybe just get rid of the horse and call the whole thing a fluke.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

:rofl: Now there is the dilemma isn't it Ian, does a good trainer know when to call it quits and when to push through and hope to get a result.

A real trainer will know when to use training aids, and which ones, and for how long. A real trainer will be honest with the people that they are dealing with. None of the real trainers around here were interested in taking Ben on, because they value themselves, and they can make a good living dealing with less explosive issues.

A real trainer is also in the first place honest about their own skills and limitations, and chooses their battles wisely.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

LOVE your post, Golden Horse!!

I completely agree - this isn't a horse that one can "train" away the problem - he has it in his toolbox that when he wants someone off, he's gonna get 'em off. Hard, killer bucks. Not a horse you can sell in good faith - which is why, i am quite sure, he was at the auction (as many others have already posted). That isn't something you missed, it was something you discovered.

I would move this horse down the road (put him back through the sale) and find another - it isn't a reflection on you that he has a MAJOR glitch - most trainers I know would cut their losses - it is a waste of your time and the owner's money at this point - he isn't going to be a profitable project pony.

Hope you are feeling better, and healing up. Have fun with the other two.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> :rofl: Now there is the dilemma isn't it Ian, does a good trainer know when to call it quits and when to push through and hope to get a result.
> 
> A real trainer will know when to use training aids, and which ones, and for how long. A real trainer will be honest with the people that they are dealing with. None of the real trainers around here were interested in taking Ben on, because they value themselves, and they can make a good living dealing with less explosive issues.
> 
> A real trainer is also in the first place honest about their own skills and limitations, and chooses their battles wisely.


Maybe so. I'm not clear on what it means to be a "real trainer" I guess. I'm more interested in being a horseman. But I'm aware that not everyone is. What's the difference? Mindset, attitude, approach, searching for causes, seeking to understand the reasons rather than fighting battles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

In this situation I think any good trainer would not take on this horse. How, in good concence, could anyone sell this horse to another human? This sounds like it I'll be a rather vicious cycle of new owner/train, injury, auction, owner/trainer, injury, auction... The only things that will come of this is an injuried or dead person or and abused or sent to slaughter horse. 

IMO the most humane thing to do with a horse who has a screw loose is to have them enthanized or keep them as a pasture puff. That is a win-win for all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BarrelracingArabian (Mar 31, 2010)

Ian this horse is dangerous. Yes she may work out his buck for her but what about the next person? This horse obviously knows exactly when to bronc and that is dangerous. It isn't about being a real trainer and sticking it out with this one he isn't safe. It's one thing to work on a horse who fear bucks or bucks out of pain this guy does not seem like one of those unfortunately. It would be a liability for her to place him knowing about his explosive tendencies since he was so calm and willing to begin with.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Ian McDonald said:


> Maybe so. I'm not clear on what it means to be a "real trainer" I guess. I'm more interested in being a horseman. But I'm aware that not everyone is. What's the difference? Mindset, attitude, approach, searching for causes, seeking to understand the reasons rather than fighting battles.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm not sure either to be honest, but I know that the people that I admire as trainers around here are horsemen and women, they read and understand horses far better than I do. They work with the horse to find it's full potential, and yes they can find and unpack issues, and that includes using all sorts of methods.

Now as an owner I have learned some things, the trainer who put miles on Ben for me was awesome, he sent back a really nice forward going horse, that I wasn't able to maintain, totally my issue. The trainer I sent Emmy to was totally the wrong choice for her, my mistake, I'll own it, and she is on the waiting list for the right person, with the understanding that she is booked up this year so it is likely to be 2015 before she gets there.

But you know sometimes there are battles, and they have to be fought, sometimes they are simple....

Gibbs cannot pick up the left lead canter correctly, to the right I can now kiss him from a walk to a beautiful lope, no worries, but I can't get the left. I don't think he has ever worked on a circle before, so out on the range he has always picked up on the right. My trainer lets me try a few times, but we both agree that practising failure just frustrates both of us, so if I can't get it she jumps on. She is much stronger at asking for the transition, and recognize instantly that he is picking up the wrong lead and can shut him down, I am always 1/2 a stride or more behind. 

So we both know what the issue is she has the skill and experience to fix it.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

BarrelracingArabian said:


> It would be a liability for her to place him knowing about his explosive tendencies since he was so calm and willing to begin with.


Especially when you are building a reputation, sorry but it is the hard truth, you can't afford to send out a risky one, people need to trust the product you produce as a trainer, and a random exploder doesn't sound like a good bet!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

When I was training horses I recalled this saying always. 

"Never a horse that couldn't be rode. Never a trainer that couldn't be throwed." 

In my training career there was ONE HORSE that I could not ride. She bucked.. from day one.. high and hard. I was just starting her and admitted the above statement. I sent her out.. and she worked so well and was so well built and athletic.. that the trainer asked if I could get papers on her "somehow" because with papers he had a buyer for $30,000 (and I paid $1200). Alas.. no papers.. and I did sell her.. but not for any $30,000... AFTER I had her professionally trained by someone else. 

Always bothered me a little that I had to go to another horseman.. but she was totally worth it. A more gorgeously put together horse I have never owned. And.. she was a golden palomino with a narrow stripe and four perfectly matched socks!


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Ian McDonald said:


> If becoming a trainer is your goal, isn't it worth considering that there's something that you missed with this horse? Something that might come up again on future horses if not solved now? What kind of trainer do you want to be? One who can really get inside their head, or one that relies on gimmicks like overcheck lines that only cover up the symptoms of root causes? Or maybe just get rid of the horse and call the whole thing a fluke.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I just want to put good, steady minded horses out there. I want to go west an intern at a ranch eventually, but for now I'm working with a lot of problem horses and gaining some life experience. I'm just working hard and doing the best I can, just like anybody else trying to get into the industry. Shamrock has certainly taught me a lot, and I'm sure there are things I missed and I messed up on. Things that I will take with me when handling other horses. 

He has learned how to be dangerous, and putting him down is something that has been discussed, and if he continues in his behavior, it will be done. I will not be responsible for him hurting someone. Given that his most recent explosions have been in a stall, next to a tractor, etc I don't even feel comfortable giving him away as a pasture pet. We'll see how these next few days go. I don't want to do anything rash, so I'm going to keep working with him, sleep on it a few nights, and go from there.

I really appreciate you all giving honest, helpful advice. It's been a huge help, and I'm working to explore every option and there are some things I would have never thought of without you all. Other things said have reiterated my own thoughts, which is encouraging.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't be quite so quick to completely write him off as some others here. Sure, he had a couple of come-aparts, but a lot of young/green horses do occasionally. The fact that you've been successfully riding him several times a week for months suggests to me that this is something that is likely fixable...given the ability and motivation to try to fix it.

I agree wholeheartedly with Cherie, try the overcheck and then work him completely down every day for a while and see if that helps. Usually, once a horse figures out that bucking = work/pain, then they lose the desire to buck.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

That's what I'm hoping. I certainly don't plan on digging holes yet. Just going to keep going and working and see what happens. If there is huge improvement, hopefully my boss will let me keep at it. If he keeps getting worse, well, I'm prepared for that too.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

EquineObsessed said:


> We did some lunge work because his transitions on the lunge can be dicey. Only worked for 15-20 minutes *so he wouldn't get bored*...
> I don't think I'm in over my head, but I do need another way to respond if there is another explosion.


*THAT is your problem, thinking when you are retraining that it is NECESSARY to relieve your horse's boredom.* What does he do when you are not training? He is bored.
Training is repetition, 
training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,
training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition, adnauseum.
If he knows the routine, DRILL the routine until he is light and responsive. You should be drilling ground work for 25-30 minutes/day for at LEAST one good week, before considering riding this horse. THEN, mix it up. Constantly surprise him with changes of direction and changes of gait and changes of exercise. 
A well ground schooled horse that is listening to you on the ground will listen while you are in the saddle.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Bored horses think. Thinking isn't necessarily good or productive. Some bored horses look for ways to entertain themselves - for better or worse. Not all horses do better with that (like mine).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Corporal said:


> *THAT is your problem, thinking when you are retraining that it is NECESSARY to relieve your horse's boredom.* What does he do when you are not training? He is bored.
> Training is repetition,
> training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,
> training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition,training is repetition, adnauseum.
> ...


 Maybe I didn't word that perfectly. I get bored lunging more than he does and I don't like lunging too long. I worked on transitions, and when I felt like he was really listening and getting it, we moved on to a trail ride, because its something we both enjoy and I feel like more training is done on the trail. We weren't just going for a joy ride, we were going to be trotting hills, working on leg yielding, etc. Obviously, we never got to that since my butt hit pavement! I don't like drilling groundwork for too long. I think it has it's place, but I almost never spend more than twenty minutes on the ground/session.

I will be doing more groundwork this week, for a lot longer, because I do want to wear him out and I do want him to absolutely, without a doubt know that if tries to take an inch, I will back him up a mile. Or two.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

You want your horse to listen to you like a dancer listens to her partner and his cues. Light and responsive and waiting for the next cue.
Didn't mean to preach, just I hurt when I hear that somebody's horse hurt THEM.
I suggest you look into Dennis Reis. If you cannot afford his DVD's, watch his show on RFD.tv. He is a master, IMHO, at turning around horses, and he has an accredited program in groundwork for his students. I've seen the programs where his students cue for transitions within gaits, AND laps backing, all without a halter and lunge line.
I also heartily agree with Clinton Anderson who says, (loosely paraphrased), "your groundwork gets better the more times you eat dirt."
I can no longer duplicate my 1,000+ hours under saddle and me teaching/training from the middle of the ring, when I had my lesson program, with MY horses as the lesson horses. So, I have been learning how to ground train, instead. It is a faster way, just not as much fun, at first.
The immediate payoff is your safety. The long term payoff is an obedient and responsive horse.


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## princessfluffybritches (Aug 10, 2012)

Horses find security in repetition. 

I hope you don't end up blaming or second guessing yourself. You probably did everything right, and this horse has a screw loose. He sounds like a horse I used to have that decided he was "cold backed". I had to lunge him every day so he wouldn't throw me. I finally sold him when he tried to attack me in his paddock.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

EVERY TIME a horse with baggage refuses to become compliant and gets sold, that horse becomes harder and harder to work with.
No WONDER that CA confidently filmed his "Austrialian Adventure" with a 10yo brumby (read, "Mustang") stallion, never been caught, never been handled, never been trained.
No baggage to retrain.
I used to say that it takes 10x as long to retrain a bad horse habit as to train correctly from scratch. I recently heard Dr. Miller, who developed the current method of imprinting foals right after birth, say that he believes it takes 20x as long to do so. I cannot argue with his expertise.
The horse is never going to tell you what happened to him, or who did what. All he knows is that experiences have taught him NOT to see humans as the leader. He believes that by fighting he won't have to be handled, or trailered or ridden. This is what this horse is doing.
If you have not mastered all the training to figure out and repair this horse's damage, you won't get very far with him. He will, at some point, bronc throw you and you may never ride again.
My horse, "******", who came to me afraid of practically everything, finally lost it while we were standing next to a cannon. Fortunately it was at a CW Event, so I wasn't out in the woods alone, when my friends saw him throw me 9 ft in the air, in 2004. I dove and just broke my right humurous, which has healed correctly. YOUR horse might knock you off under a tree branch or under the barn door running back into the barn. You might dislocate your leg, so it's bent the way it never is supposed to be bent. I could go on, but talking about this sickens my stomach.
I believe that this horse is beyond your abilities and certainly beyond your patience.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

I'm not second guessing myself yet, though I am fairly certain I didn't do everything right! 

Shamrock is absolutely beyond my abilities, no argument. I've never dealt with a horse like him. But, we have worked through a lot already, and I'm willing to keep going. I won't learn if I don't stretch a bit and I have people who are far more experienced than me to work with me. I'm not doing this by myself, but as long as my boss keeps him, we're working through this. He was coming along nicely, now I found a hole, several holes, in his training. So I'm going to step back, and do my best to fill them in. He might not ever be a trustworthy horse, he might remain too unpredictable to sell. Maybe my boss will make the decision to give him away, or put him down. Maybe he'll shape up. But he's been perfect for three months, and this new behavior has only existed for about three days. I think I can work through it, and it's not like I'm doing it alone. Everyone's advice here is objective and honest, that I appreciate. But I also have hands on help, which makes all of this more doable.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

EquineObsessed said:


> I won't learn if I don't stretch a bit .


you already know more than you think you do.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> If becoming a trainer is your goal, isn't it worth considering that there's something that you missed with this horse? Something that might come up again on future horses if not solved now? What kind of trainer do you want to be? One who can really get inside their head, or one that relies on gimmicks like overcheck lines that only cover up the symptoms of root causes? Or maybe just get rid of the horse and call the whole thing a fluke.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Actually, I do not think this is true -- on a couple of counts.

First, I do not think it is necessary to be able to turn around extremely spoiled horses to be a successful, sought-after trainer turning out good, sought-after horses. 

I think you need to decide what direction you want to go. If you want your goal to be starting colts and training for the public, you will have to learn how to deal with this kind of horse and even worse. You cannot 'cherry-pick' the stock you take in. For one thing, the public trainer will be lied to most of the time because people are afraid you will not take their spoiled dink. So, if you plan to start young horses and you don't raise your own, expect to get in a myriad of spoiled horses that have bucked off, kicked, pawed, attacked and tried to kill previous trainers or owners. It comes with the territory. It is how I got so good and turning them around. From the time I was 15 until I was 25 or 26, I never turned down or sent home anything. Almost all of them left my stable with their owners riding them and getting along with them well, no matter how rank they were when they brought them to me.

This would NOT be how I would recommend others get started in the training business now. But, when I started in 1960, no one thought a 'girl' could train anything. I was in cowboy country and had to prove I could ride all the crap that came my way. Men would laugh and tell friends of mine that they left me some dink that had nearly killed 2 or 3 people to give me a lesson in what women should be doing and it wasn't riding horses. Men tried to get me killed and thought it was funny. I was the butt of every cowboy's joke when I got started. Thank goodness the world has changed.

Knowing what to do with spoiled horses is a plus, but a good trainer can stay away from the bad ones if she or he wants to. If you want to train and sell 'user friendly' horses to youth and novice riders, you cannot start out with spoiled horses that either buck, rear or flip. Barn sour, one-leaded, head-fighting, herd bound, spooky, water or mud hating horses with no manners, no mouth and no 'handle' are a piece of cake. Rank horses and un-sound horses are NOT going to be your best prospects. They just need to go back to the sale. You gave them a chance and they flunked the basic test of having a good mind and a good body.

As for an 'over-check' being a crutch or gimmick -- not really. It is extremely effective even _if_ you can ride and stay on a horse that bucks. If corrects the horse much more effectively than any rider can. A horse tries to take its head down, it runs into the over-check much faster than the best rider can 'catch' it dropping its head. After 2 or 3 rides with one, you can almost always take it off and not have to use it again on that horse. If it has not been successful in dropping its head, it gives it up. The horse RUNS INTO the over-check just like a horse runs into an electric fence or a nipping horse runs into a nail. It just simply stops the behavior.

On the other hand, not every rider is good every time at catching a horse quickly enough to keep its head up. In addition, you have to pull up or pull around the horse that tries to buck. This is a 'win' for any horse. It takes a professional caliber bronc rider to push one forward knowing it will probably drop its head between its knees and buck 10 time harder. The over-check gives you the tool you need to push a horse forward without getting chunked off in a heap and without having to ride like Larry Mahan.

Now, If you did not effectively push a horse on forward when it tried to buck and did not wear its butt out, it could probably become a crutch. But that person is not going to be much of a trainer anyway. 

The over-check is perfect for your first 5 minutes on a horse (before it has been loped out freely) when it has only had 2 or 3 rides on it and to stop a horse from 'threatening' to buck or crow-hopping. Those horses quickly 'train' a rider to pull them up. A few minutes with the over-check stops all of that crap.

You see, I had to learn how to 'cheat' a horse and how to get a horse to 'punish' himself. That is what I call getting into his head. I did not aspire to ride like Casey Tibbs. I never had the strength or Testosterone to be bigger or meaner than a rank horse. I was not stupid enough to keep getting back on one that kept bucking me off. [The definition of insanity is to keep repeating the same thing and expecting different results.] I wanted to be smarter and wanted to 'teach' horses to do what I wanted and to like doing it -- without resistance. I call that smart and learning how to use 'tools'; I would not call it relying on gimmicks.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Thank you for sharing some of your experiences with me!
I don't know exactly what kind of trainer I'm going to be, but I'm using the time I have at my current barn to figure it out. I have Shamrock, one project that I just sold last week, another project that belonged to a client that just went home. I have a few horses I'm paid to exercise, and my own personal mare who I've had almost three weeks. More horses are coming in at ten end of the month. I won't be here forever, even though its a dream job. 


Once I have a clearer idea of my direction, I plan to apprentice with a trainer with similar goals. For now, I want good, all around horses that excel on trails, and are light and responsive. Whether that's with problem horses, resales, or purely clients, I don't know. I know I'm in the right place for now, where I am experiencing all of it, and I can start making decisions once I feel I'm ready to apprentice somewhere. Hopefully out west.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Subbing to see if you find an answer to his sudden change. Good luck. How odd that he lost it in the stall! Something is very definitely wrong.

Any chance that anyone else has been handling him incorrectly? With a troubled history if someone mistreated him it might throw him back.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

NorthernMama said:


> Any chance that anyone else has been handling him incorrectly? With a troubled history if someone mistreated him it might throw him back.


 I'm the only one handling him now. Maybe there is something I'm doing to set him off, but if that were the case, I feel like it would have started sooner.

I'll let everyone know how he does today. Yesterday he was pretty normal. We did some groundwork and ponying for about two hours, and then I just got on and walked circles and serpentines, did lots of change of direction for maybe 10 minutes, then called it a day. He felt calm and steady the whole time. There is someone coming to see him this afternoon as a pasture puff, with full disclosure. Hopefully they don't like him, so I can keep working with him.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

EquineObsessed said:


> I won't learn if I don't stretch a bit and I have people who are far more experienced than me to work with me.


So...you'll buy a used car that you must IMMEDIATELY pay a mechanic to help YOU fix?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Corporal said:


> So...you'll buy a used car that you must IMMEDIATELY pay a mechanic to help YOU fix?


Sorry I'm missing the point here? 

My sons first cars were both bought cheap, and then they had their dad help them fix them, so my answer to your question is a huge YES, it is a great way to learn how a car works. I fail to see the link between an a car and a horse in this question *shrugs*


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Cherie said:


> You gave them a chance and they flunked the basic test of having a good mind and a good body.


SO well put. That was my philosophy...until I forgot...then I remembered, got on the phone with CHERIE, and have been listening, ever since.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Corporal said:


> So...you'll buy a used car that you must IMMEDIATELY pay a mechanic to help YOU fix?


Lots of people do this. I'm confused what your point is here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

A new horse owner shouldn't be buying a horse with problems.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

I agree that a new horse owner shouldn't buy a problem horse, but I'm not exactly new to horses. He isn't my first project, and he isn't my first horse. I'm young, but I've been fortunate enough to work with a lot of horses, and a lot of well-respected trainers. If Shamrock were a car, I would be working with a mechanic to learn how to replace the gaskets (Is that a thing? My dad used to be a mechanic but I know ZERO about cars) while I'm used to replacing an engine. By the way, I don't even know how to change a tire, so I might be mixing up my car speak. 

This isn't the first bucking horse I've handled, but it is the first one who just exploded both in a saddle and just sitting in his stall. With a more experienced trainer working with me, I can learn how to push through this, and then I'll know what to do if I ever work with a similar horse. There is no reason I can't learn with hands on help.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I don't see anything wrong with working as a trainer with another, more experienced trainer. That's far more akin to a mentor-mentee situation. That's a common situation everywhere in the professional world.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I don't see the point of "pushing through this" with this really problem horse. There are SO MANY unwanted and better horses to work with. Like CHERIE said, you would do better with your reputation to retrain horses to be better at a sport, instead of work with dangerous ones. There is no real money in it and your safety is at risk.
But, you have certainly made up your mind that this one is...different. I wouldn't mess with this horse for $1,000,000.00
I'd like to be riding later this year, instead of in the hospital.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Corporal said:


> I don't see the point of "pushing through this" with this really problem horse. There are SO MANY unwanted and better horses to work with. Like CHERIE said, you would do better with your reputation to retrain horses to be better at a sport, instead of work with dangerous ones. There is no real money in it and your safety is at risk.
> But, you have certainly made up your mind that this one is...different. I wouldn't mess with this horse for $1,000,000.00
> I'd like to be riding later this year, instead of in the hospital.


If the behavior continues, I won't. My boss doesn't want to continue working with him, and is looking to rehome him as a companion horse. Maybe the person who comes tonight will take him. Until he's gone, I'm going to go slow and steady. I already said I would put him down if it comes to that. I put the other horses that I am making money with first, I have plenty to work with. I'm not trying to be stubborn and I completely agree that there are far better, safer horses I could work with. I'm not 'set' on this horse, but I do feel like I should try while he is still here. After all, this behavior was non existent a week ago. I do appreciate and respect the point you're making.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I didn't realize this was a young horse. Many youngsters, as previously mention have a buck hiding inside. When I worked colts it seemed the ones that came along nicely and seemed to do everything I asked were the ones that would have a blow up, just one and that was the end of it. And those blow ups were pretty explosive. We are inclined to keep asking if there's no resistance until it's too late. The ones that do resist a little is a signal we are moving too quickly and it's time to give them a few days off.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I've been reading and good luck to you, what an awesome endeavor!

IMHO I would NOT rehome this horse to be a companion. He's proven to explode violently with basic handling, that's my first red flag and a deal breaker. I sold off a gorgeous mare that did that and worse, she'd fall over sideways and collapse on anything when frustrated. She broke her new owners back. I handled this horse on a daily basis and knew what buttons NOT to push, I put in hundreds of hours with her over several years and could work around it and had her number. The new owner fully knew what she was capable of and thought he could handle it like I did, I to this day regret that I didn't insist she went for meat (she wasn't mine). He WAS the best farrier in the area and she ended his career.

If you are going to continue working with him I don't suggest wearing him out prior. They will get used to it and one day when the new owner doesn't they could revert and possibly hurt someone. I say jump on if you want to and keep trying him.
It could be a fluke, it could be him, but you need to know FOR SURE for your reputation.

If it were me I'd put him down or sell only to a meat buyer. Agree that there are too many good ones to get you on your way. This horse is teaching you a hard lesson... 

Good luck whatever you decide to do!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Saddlebag, he's not too young. He's 9 or 10.

Fly, I'm apprehensive about giving him away as a companion as well. I agree that I shouldn't wear him out before every ride, I think that advice was given to be temporary, just for the next few rides.

I did have a long conversation with my boss today, and we'll be talking more tomorrow about our next steps.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Well good, I hope you can talk her out of it.

If he were mine and I was going to "fix" or test this behavior I'd just get on fresh. When he acted up I'd ride it out and not let him win. There are hundreds of ways to go about it, but wearing him out is only prolonging the inevitable, especially as a flip. 

If I were training flips I'd only sell the ones that had never offered to buck, kick, rear, etc. The trainers I trust are the same. Sure you might train one out of it for future clients, but could you sell one with a clear conscience as being fixed, even disclosing his early problems? You may be able to handle him, come to an understanding with him, but the next owner?
That I couldn't do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Corporal said:


> I don't see the point of "pushing through this" with this really problem horse. There are SO MANY unwanted and better horses to work with. Like CHERIE said, you would do better with your reputation to retrain horses to be better at a sport, instead of work with dangerous ones. There is no real money in it and your safety is at risk.
> But, you have certainly made up your mind that this one is...different. I wouldn't mess with this horse for $1,000,000.00
> I'd like to be riding later this year, instead of in the hospital.


Maybe it's just me, but coming from my experience, a horse having a couple of fits doesn't come _close_ to classifying it as "a really problem horse" :?. 


And I'll be honest, I'm not sure which cloud the "put him down because he's dangerous and might have a brain tumor" idea came falling out of. It's spring, even _broke_ horses sometimes have days where they act like lunatics let loose from the asylum.

I've known a _lot_ of horses who threw a couple (or more) fits during training, but once addressed, these horses went on to have happy, successful, and _safe_ lives as riding partners.

Of course there is a risk in continuing to work with this horse, just like there is a risk to working with _any_ green horse. Heck, my half draft that is as mellow as they come (but green) threw a huge buck today when I asked him to lope over the top of a little mound of dirt. I'm not about to start calling him "dangerous" because of that. That's just all a part of dealing with green horses. Some of them are going to buck and of those that buck, some will rival NFR saddle broncs, it's just a statement of fact.

Personally, I think it's way too early to start calling him a "problem" horse at all. He's a _green_ horse, period. 2 years old or 10 years old, a green horse is a green horse and if every horse who threw a couple fits was labeled and sold as "dangerous", well that would be a tragedy.

OP, you have experience, you have a trainer handy to help if needed, and you know the risks and I, for one, encourage you to continue working with this horse as long as you can. Just try to minimize the risks by using whatever tools necessary (overcheck, a nightlatch on your saddle, wear a helmet if you have one, etc). Not only are you learning lessons that will likely be needed in your future as a horse trainer, but every day you work with Shamrock and he shows improvement, you are bettering his chances of having a long and happy life.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Thanks smrobs! Today, I saddled up, and hand walked him on the trails. I got on for short spurts after we'd been walking a while, and then rode him the whole way back. Its funny that I consider this progress, when we've done so much more before, but I'm really happy with how he did today.

Unfortunately, he was also an angel for the woman who came to see him as a project (She didn't ride him, just watched him on the lunge line and then it started pouring). She is making a decision in the next few days. She got full disclosure about his recent behavior and although she came to see him as a pasture pet, she showed up looking for a project. If she doesn't take him, I think I've convinced my boss to give him another shot. We shall see! It's frustrating, being in a situation where I don't have many choices, but you have all given me a lot to think about, and I'll keep posted on what happens with this lady. I doubt I'll be able to work Sham tomorrow, there's a clinic I have to help with all day at the barn.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

What was done to rule out any pain issues?

Without more intensive diagnostics, usually we have no real idea what is going on with horse.

Has his sheath been cleaned lately, as that can cause bucking.

Have you run your hands over him to check for thorns, or sores, some of which might be too small for you to notice, but would get this.

Has he had dental exam lately, as could have something stuck in soft palate, or even something going on at poll.


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## EquineObsessed (May 24, 2013)

Palomine said:


> What was done to rule out any pain issues?
> 
> Without more intensive diagnostics, usually we have no real idea what is going on with horse.
> 
> ...


 The vet did a full check and blood work. She and I both checked his body and tack several times for irritants. His teeth and sheath cleaning were taken care of two weeks ago. His movement is 100% normal and his tack fits well. I do not think it is a pain issue.


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## Bagheera (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm not as experienced as some of the others here, but I would say he falls into one of two categories. You have to decide which. He is either just plain dangerous/ or he has figured out a way he believes will get him out of work.

I've ridden a dangerous horse. It started with a simple rear that scared the owner. It then led into bucking and flipping over. I tried to fix this horse by riding him through his bucking and rearing issues. I got after him when he refused to go forward, and he still refused to go forward no matter how much rein you gave him when you got after him. I have never seen any thing like it. I gave up after two months. The owner sent him off to be retrained and he ended up almost killing the new trainer when he flipped over on him. That is a dangerous horse. One who just absolutely does not care what you do. It will do its absolute best to get you off of its back no matter what.

A horse who thinks it has figured out a way to get out of work will only act up for a short period of time. I rode a QH x Draft cross that bucked his owner off twice when he was first broke to being ridden. He thought bucking was a fantastic way to get out of work. After about a week of having the snot lunged and ridden out of him, he learned otherwise. He still threw out the occasional temper tantrum for the next few months, but he learned that I was extremely difficult to buck off and that he would be completely worn out every time he had a tantrum. The issue went away completely about 4 or 5 months after the first incident. Two years later, he is an absolute pleasure to ride and a gentleman.

What you need to figure out is which of the two categories this horse falls into. You also need to figure out how much time, effort, and how much of a personal safety risk you are willing to put into this horse.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Here is my take. First you need to determine what is setting this horse off. 

When he was in his stall, were there horses in sight? Was he separated from a buddy? Was he separated from his herd-mates in his pasture?
Did someone take a horse away from the barn or lead a horse past before he got upset?

Something is triggering this behavior. Separation anxiety seems likely. There is no hot wire in the stall, correct? 

Second to that, I would guess this is something physical. I would be checking his back, withers, pelvis etc. Check his stomach where the girth goes. Palpate the ribs (no injuries there?). Get a chiropractor out, or a massage therapist. You really need to palpate all over him. Stick your fingers against his spine, etc. 

My opinion of vets isn't that great. I've had 2 look at my lame mare and none of them can figure out what is causing her lameness issue. So just because he passes a vet check doesn't mean everything is okay.

As far as mounting, this is the time to practice it. I would focus back on groundwork and get him going really well from the ground. I would go to the mounting block and (bareback) work on leaning on him. I wouldn't get on. I would work on asking him to bend his head to his side (think Clinton Anderson's lateral flexion). Make his nose touch his shoulder. Than lean on his back. Give him a carrot. Repeat. Repeat. Same thing on the other side. 

Practice bumping him with your foot in the stomach, and on the rump. Reward him for standing. Watch for signs of fear. Tension in the neck. Is he relaxed? 

Put a saddle on and practice again. I would not get on him. I would do this for about 2 months. Groundwork, lean on him, bump him with your foot. Reward with a treat. 

I rescued a mare who someone beat the daylights out of. She knew how to buck people off. I was "told" she was rideable... Right! First ride she bucked until I came off. And she knew what she was doing. 

I spent months doing the above. Pretty soon I could climb all over her and she would stand like a rock. Her behavior was definitely fear related though so once you gained her trust, it wasn't as difficult. The first time she cantered up to see me, I was thrilled. This was the horse who no one could catch, who you couldn't get near her head. She was so scared of getting hit in the face, you had to approach from the rump, pet her and work forward. Very very head shy.


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