# Silver vs sooty?



## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

Ok, so i'v had a fascination with "chocolate" horses since i was young. But i'v been doing research, and seeing the difference between "chocolate palominos" and "silver dapples". But what about the flaxen liver chestnuts? does it carry the sooty/smutty modifier too? I know silver is marked "Z", i can't remember what palomino is. 

I read an article that the silver dapple gene is only traced back to two pony breeds 1. Shetland, and 2. Icelandic. I'm not sure i can totally agree with this. 

I'v also come to notice that many "silver dapple" horses manes and tail will darken as they age, some do not. Where as the palomino will keep it mane and tail white/flaxen, or does it depend on the sooty/smutty modifier too? In that case how does it affect chestnut? 

I see many photos of horses that they call liver chestnut, that could pass for chocolate palomino, and pass on the color to their foals like a silver. Could it all be connected in some way? 

Sorry for all the confusion! Thank you!


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

I also know that silver dilutes black, and only affects black points. It does not show in a red horse.
How would sooty affect a red horse?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Elizabeth Bowers said:


> Ok, so i'v had a fascination with "chocolate" horses since i was young. But i'v been doing research, and seeing the difference between "chocolate palominos" and "silver dapples". But what about the flaxen liver chestnuts? does it carry the sooty/smutty modifier too? I know silver is marked "Z", i can't remember what palomino is.
> 
> I read an article that the silver dapple gene is only traced back to two pony breeds 1. Shetland, and 2. Icelandic. I'm not sure i can totally agree with this.
> 
> ...


Sooty darkens the coat color.

Silver effects black and dilutes it. Chocolate is another name for silver though less accurate and not technically correct.

Palomino is caused by the cream dilution which also causes buckskin and with two copies cremello/perlino (and smokey black/smokey cream on a black horse. Cream is abbreviated Cr.

Flaxen causes the regular chestnuts mane and tail to go flaxen.

So think of sooty and flaxen separately, they don't do the same thing as the others and work differently (and aren't comparable to each other either.)

Darkening is different, remember completely different colors!

Sooty (I believe) does not darken as the horse ages, it may change seasonally or over time but once the horse is say 10 it won't be any darker at say 20.

You can call a horse what you want, doesn't change genetics.

Sooty can only effect a red horse, you can't make a black horse blacker.

Hope I helped, your questions were slightly confusing to me since couldn't figure out quite where you're coming from.

ETA- chocolate palomino isn't really a thing and refers more to a look than a genetic color. That may be where your confusion comes in. You could have a dark palomino, but the color also refers to flaxen liver chestnuts and is often used for silvers too.


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

Ok, i think i get it now LOL
Thank you!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Lol good! I think you were confused on one or two points that was making the rest of it not make sense, because it sounds like you're on the right track.

Let me know if you have any more questions


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Yogi got it minus one thing.

Sooty can effect black-based horses, but only if they also carry agouti and/or cream.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sure, I didn't phrase that very well. I don't know if it *doesn't effect* black, but it's obviously not visible black on black. I think we had a little confusion with a genetically red horse (chestnut) and a physically red horse (chestnut, or bay, etc..)

OP just so you know all horses are either red (chestnut) or black, and the agouti gene makes black horses into bay or brown and those are your 4 basic colors (to clarify, in case you didn't know). So the term "red horse" would technically be a chestnut and NOT a bay.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> Sooty darkens the coat color.
> 
> Sooty can only effect a red horse, you can't make a black horse blacker.


 A bay horse is black genetically (Ee or EE with the agouti modifier). They are not red. Sooty effects the light (red portion) of their coat though not the black points (mane, tail, legs). It also effects a red horse (chestnut/sorrel/palomino - ee) and shows in the mane and tail as well.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

QtrBel said:


> A bay horse is black genetically (Ee or EE with the agouti modifier). They are not red. Sooty effects the light (red portion) of their coat though not the black points (mane, tail, legs). It also effects a red horse (chestnut/sorrel/palomino - ee) and shows in the mane and tail as well.


Yes, I covered that in my most recent post just to be clear.


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

Oh, ok. Now i'm getting it. I learned so much about "silver dapple" and that a chestnut is a carrier, it only shows on black based horses, or horse with black points. Can sooty/smutty affect it as well?

I know palomino is a cream dilution, i'm amazed at how sooty/smutty can affect it's color over all.
I'm guessing sooty/smutty would affect chestnut, could it make it liver chestnut where it gets the crazy orange to flaxen mane? Or would that be a cream dilution working?

I can't get over "silver dapple" and its extensive connection to ASD, and many breed registries are just calling it 'chocolate palomino' when it was studied that some of the registered horses had the same ocular cysts as those present in ASD horses. Is silver dapple really the only connection with ASD or could it have something to do with the particular breeds of horses? 
Are there any other genetic disorders closely dealing with particular colors?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Can sooty effect silver (on a black horse)? I *think* so.

Yes sooty will show on any red (and I think black) horse. Palomino is basically just a chestnut with cream. Does sooty cause liver chestnut? I believe there are theories that is does and theories that it's something separate/in addition. Flaxen is no relation to sooty. Liver chestnuts can have it so can very pale chestnuts, it's just something that shows up on chestnuts.

So there is chestnut/bay/brown/black as the 4 basics.

Then with one cream gene cream those colors become palomino/buckskin/"brownskin"/smokey black.

So yes, sometimes they can look very similar but if the horse has no cream it is a chestnut and with cream it's a palomino, they cannot overlap..

I do believe there are things linked to colors but can't think of anything. Obviously grey horses tend to get melanomas but I don't think that's quite the same.

I would take a step back and look at the basics if I were you. It seems like you've gone to the more advanced stuff and are confused because the basics aren't fully understood.

There are the 4 base colors and then there are genes like cream, silver, dun, champagne, etc that effect those colors. THEN there are the extra genes that create things like flaxen. THEN there are genes like sooty that change the shade of the horse. and THEN there a millions of other genes that make a red chestnut a red chestnut and an orange chestnut an orange chestnut and all those other tiny little details that we have not isolated yet. They are just specific shading genes.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I am in the camp of sooty NOT having any effect on black based horses. Instead, I am beginning to wonder if brown and bay are not complete dominants, but instead are incomplete, and the sooty effect on a bay horse is actually brown trying to express. Every black based horse I have seen with "sooty" could fall into this category, while red based horses with sooty have a completely different expression.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Got a question...Are you all saying that silver dapple and chocolate palomino are the same? I have a silver dapple mini and I don't think his coloring looks like the chocolate palomino of Rocky Mountain horses at all. When the mini is shaved he's silver with black dapples, unshaved he looks the color of shetlands they call taffy with some silver showing underneath. Mane and tail are white, well at least when they're clean. The Rockies I've seen up close look like a very dark chestnut with more of a flaxen mane & tail and also have a lot more dark hairs mixed in. I've never seen a Rocky shaved though so don't know what's underneath.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

JCnGrace, yes, they are the same gene in each breed. Most "chocolate palomino" horses are indeed silver black. It is just a different expression because "big" horses tend to express silver less than ponies. So while a mini will have a nice clear expression, Rockies tend to not have it so clear.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Here's a pic of the mini.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Chiilaa said:


> I am in the camp of sooty NOT having any effect on black based horses. Instead, I am beginning to wonder if brown and bay are not complete dominants, but instead are incomplete, and the sooty effect on a bay horse is actually brown trying to express. Every black based horse I have seen with "sooty" could fall into this category, while red based horses with sooty have a completely different expression.


I completely agree with that. I wasn't sure on the technicalities but what you are saying here completely makes sense and is something I've noticed as well.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Looks silver dapple to me. Cute!


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