# Hondo'N Me



## bsms

I look forward to your journal and your adventures. You are a truly independent thinker who pays attention to your horses. Some decades ago, a friend and I were hiking in Arizona. Found some structures. Turned out it was Charleston, Az. Stumbled across what looked like a mine once, but I gave it wide berth.


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## AnitaAnne

Will be interesting to see how the Ghost saddle works out. Don't forget pictures :smile:


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## Hondo

Ok. Today the plan was to place the very soft Supracor dressage pad on top of the stiffer Supracor endurance pad to see if I lost any lateral stability on the Trooper saddle. That's about the thickness of the Ghost panels or a Western saddle pad + skirt. I have not felt good about the Trooper bars sitting directly on top of the stiffer endurance pad without some fluff in between.

I had the Contour camera loaded up and mounted and intended to shoot some video on the trail I'm working on that I'm calling the Minnihaha Creek Trail. 

Before getting fully underway, I decided to check tracking on the Ghost in case it came in early. Bingo! Delivered!

First thing I did was to weigh it without panels, leathers, or stirrups. 6.5 pounds on my 70 pound baggage scale. Didn't believe it. Weighed it on my 8 pound fish scale. Same thing. Added the panels and the weight shot up to a full 8.5 pounds. Wow! The Barefoot is 14.5 pounds. But in fairness, being a Western design, it has more leather plus a saddle horn.

I had suggested not sending the leathers and stirrups to keep the shipping weight down. When I pulled the leathers, stirrups, and fenders from the Trooper they weighed in at 7.5 pounds. Almost as much as the saddle.

As plans sometimes go, the leathers were very thick nylon with thick leather sewed on top. Too fat to fit into the Ghost leathers rings. So the Trooper leathers, fenders, stirrups, et al were threaded back onto the Trooper saddle.

So I rigged up some nylon webbing with some English stirrups. Sort of shaky looking maybe, but I was anxious to see how the twist was. The saddle as pictured is placed way back from what I wound up with.










The twist felt really really good. But not quite as good as the Trooper which I put at near perfect but very good never the less. Dismounting the saddle tipped forward badly. And when riding I was thinking: The panels are at the back of the shoulders but this is not treed. Then I remembered the lady demonstrating how to place a Freeform saddle. She placed her hand on the horse where the sit bones go, and indicated where the sit bones were on the saddle. Forget about treed saddles and forget about the front and the back. Put the sit bones where the sit bones go. So I unsaddled and did that. And it worked well. Dismounting was much better. And even better when pushing off from the opposite knee roll/pad.

But there was still the problem of the stirrups. I would not be comfortable going into the outback with English stirrups. Not at this point at least. I'm accustomed to being able to put my foot in the stirrup without looking anytime I take it out. Plus my stirrups are wide with leather on the front where there is zero chance that my foot could become hung up.

Then it struck me. The Ghost is Velcro under the seat just like the Barefoot. And the stirrup connections on the barefoot are attached to a Velcro pad. And @gottatrot mentioned that some people liked to run the leathers under the flap rather than through the slot in the flap. Viola! It worked. Just took the leathers off the Barefoot and threw them across the Ghost.

So I'm in business. Plan to do some more recon on my Minnihaha Creek Trail tomorrow and shoot some video. Not sure if I'll try the HAF pad that showed up in the box or my beloved Supracor. I'll sleep on it.

So here's the Ghost with a Bates Endurance saddle leathers mounted.









I haven't figured out why the second picture posted always shows up with the first again. I guess I will......eventually.


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## Hondo

We did about a 5 mile out and back yesterday connecting more pieces of what is hopefully to become the Minnihaha Creek Trail. The plan is to connect it to a historic trail leading to the historic community of Crown King about 10 miles East and around 6,000 feet elevation and also connect to a trail leading to the Southern community of Wickenburg. That's the plan. The use of a GPS is an invaluable tool for finding, returning to, and connecting the pieces of trails.

@gottatrot 's Ghost saddle was used with the Supracor endurance pad and the Crates endurance saddle leathers and stirrups. The Ghost saddle with panels weighed 8.5 pounds, and the leathers and stirrups also weighed 8.5 pounds. I asked myself, "What's wrong with this picture?"

Using the Barefoot's Velcro stirrup attachment turned out to be not so good of an idea. The attachment point was right under my thigh and with the thick leathers made quite a lump. Not too bad for one short trip but not good for a permanent situation. So back to the drawing board on the stirrup attachment.

Hondo did not seem happy at all. He kept looking back at times as if to say, "What's going on back there?" I finally leaned forward and ran my hand down his withers. The saddle was down on his back!

The panels had been positioned about two inches forward of center the day before which had left room for my entire hand down his withers. The saddle was pulled and the panels were repositioned two inches farther forward. Just that much changed the saddle dramatically and allowed more than enough room for my entire hand down his withers while mounted. Placing the panels too far rearward let the saddle tip forward and spread at the pommel which allowed it to drop and lose clearance.

Take home message: Treeless saddles with Velcro mounted panels take a bit of thought and attention until the best position for the horse is found. That said, I do like the Velcro panels as they allow a person to see from one end to the other just like an English saddle. Being able to actually SEE the clearance was one thing that drew me to the Trooper saddle.

After the repositioning of the panels, Hondo seemed fine and even broke into a trot on some short uphills. I shoved my hand under the pad which was over the back of his scapula. I could feel the scapula moving back and forth but the pressure on it was minimal. The Barefoot with the rigid pommel had way more pressure in that area.

The woman I bought the saddle from was having a problem in the same area for a couple of years before she decided to try the soft pommel. And that solved the problem, but she did use a Skito pad with thick inserts. She ordered her size smaller Barefoot with a soft pommel. Hondo would definitely need thick inserts to use the soft pommel.

Hondo's back was checked several times today with no soreness detected.

Pictured below is the picture demanded by @AnitaAnne . Some video was recorded but has not been edited down yet.

To be continued...........



AnitaAnne said:


> Don't forget pictures :smile:


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## Hondo

Oops. Doubled.


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## gottatrot

Very interesting! 
I had to move the panels a few times before I could find the spot on each horse where I still had spinal clearance (width and height), and the saddle also sat the most level.
Do the thigh blocks in front get in your way? Those were one thing I worried about since they were non-removable, but they never interfered with my leg when I was riding.

Since I've been using composite stirrups, I can carry the Ghost around with my last two fingers through the loop on the pommel. Pretty nice to have a saddle that light.


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## AnitaAnne

Didn't mean to sound demanding  just can see better with pictures...


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> Didn't mean to sound demanding  just can see better with pictures...


Oh dear. I'm a kidder sometimes and sometimes I get misunderstood. I in no way thought you were being demanding. Just indicating you liked pictures which I appreciate. I like pictures too. Sometimes they can be used in place of typing a thousand words.

Hondo's straight up mane is growing out but it will, sigh, be rubbed out again this spring.

@gottatrot Thank you for worrying about the thigh blocks but it was wasted worry! I didn't even notice they were there. Anytime I looked at them my legs were never touching them. They may have on some steeper downhills but I was thinking about other stuff at those times and didn't notice.

I've been riding in the classical position in both the Barefoot and Ghost and am puzzled why it is not bothering my knees. At least when I peer over my shoulder down at my heel it looks like all is lined up.

I Googled composite stirrups and then extra wide composite stirrups but didn't find any at 5 1/2 inches or so. Cashel has some aluminum stirrups that are 6 inches wide but the foot depth is narrow.

So anyhow, some research is definitely needed on lighter stirrups and leathers while addressing the notion of stirrup stability which I feel I need. 

The Cavallin Heritage, same as a Ghost, has one end of the stirrup leathers attached at the bottom of the flap along with the girth buckles attached at the same point. That could provide the stability I desire without wide heavy fenders.

I had planned to ride out on my new trail project again today but the club that puts on an annual 300 +/- rider event here on the ranch is here doing cleanup this weekend and are wanting more info on a trail they used over 21 years ago that I successfully located and opened back up. That's the trail that Hondo and I rode 15 miles taking 8 hours to show two other club members one day.

My video editing may get shoved back a ways.

I'm really excited that they are making preparations to use that trail. It's gnarly but a really great trail. Needs a bit more trimming here and there.

I will have to say that on only the basis of pure fit for my own body and my own feelings of stability,. the Trooper saddle feels better than any saddle I've used, treeless or standard western. But it's just too darn heavy.

I'll add that I would never use a Trooper saddle with standard bars.


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## Dragoon

gottatrot said:


> Very interesting!
> I had to move the panels a few times before I could find the spot on each horse where I still had spinal clearance (width and height), and the saddle also sat the most level.


Now I'm disappointed...does this mean a Ghost has to be adjusted for each horse? I've been following with interest because I have four horses available for me to ride and was hoping one saddle could be used for all, without fiddling. Perhaps a separate (shimmed) pad for each? 

So that's Hondo? He's real cute, but looks just like bsms' Cowboy, only with freckles. Did you see the video of Cowboy's wobble at the trot? I wonder if Hondo does that too due to his body shape. If so, that would make learning to trot very difficult! Thats a lot of side to side and up and down motion to try to balance yourself over!

Thanks so much for the updates on this saddle, and for gotta' s generostiy in lending it. For me, this is a really major purchase decision!


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## gottatrot

Dragoon said:


> Now I'm disappointed...does this mean a Ghost has to be adjusted for each horse? I've been following with interest because I have four horses available for me to ride and was hoping one saddle could be used for all, without fiddling. Perhaps a separate (shimmed) pad for each?
> 
> Thanks so much for the updates on this saddle, and for gotta' s generostiy in lending it. For me, this is a really major purchase decision!


It was actually that I got the panels adjusted so it worked for both horses. I didn't have to change them each time I used them on a different horse. But I liked the saddle so much I bought a second one, which I sold last year when my first horse retired.

If your horses are similar in build, it would probably work on all, but if they are very different it may need adjusting. The panels are not difficult to remove, since they are attached with velcro to the bottom of the saddle.


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## Hondo

@Dragoon, from my reading on the various manufacturers sites, there is no treeless saddle that can just be taken off one horse and placed on another with somewhat abandon.

With the brands that have Velcro panels, the panels must be adjusted depending on a wide wither or steep wither, and with Hondo it seems that due to the large movement of his shoulder muscles the panels need to be farther forward.

And with the Barefoot saddle, there is the consideration of the regular, wide, extra wide, or soft pommel for different horses along with treeless saddle pad insert selections.

But even with these considerations, if there is more than one horse to fit, the treeless can be more easily fitted to more horses than a treed saddle as it will technically fit only one back properly.

I've thought about videoing Hondo when trotting at liberty out in the field and see what people thought of his movement. He gets sort of big at an extended trot but when leading him on the motorcycle just above a walk he has what looks like a really nice smooth jog that anybody, except me, should easily be able to sit.


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## AnitaAnne

Hondo said:


> I like pictures too. Sometimes they can be used in place of typing a thousand words.


That's what I meant...have a hard time reading 1000 words (some posters I skim cause they are too wordy for me) 



Hondo said:


> I've been riding in the classical position in both the Barefoot and Ghost and am puzzled why it is not bothering my knees. At least when I peer over my shoulder down at my heel it looks like all is lined up.


Classical position is easier on knees than a chair seat, just like sitting around in a chair doing nothing will make it harder (at least aged knees) to get up. JMO


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## Hondo

Ok, I found time to pull about 4 minutes out of the video that is sort of representative of the first leg of the Minnihaha Creek Trail and fairly representative if the area in general. The trails of course are highly groomed and lined with many pointy things.

Also shows our rather casual rate of travel.


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## whisperbaby22

Nice trail. Here in the big city, my trails are so groomed, it's nice to see something a bit more rugged.


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## AnitaAnne

Thanks for sharing your ride! Interesting trail and quite different from what we have here.


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## Hondo

Went out on Minnihaha again today and connected in another section of trail. I was not able to get the leathers re-arranged on the Ghost do to all the company and goings on so the Trooper was taken.

Hondo still seems very happy with the Trooper. I have read reviews where people said they couldn't get off a Trooper fast enough. But for my particular conformation, the fit is fantastic. Felt even better after riding he Barefoot and Ghost. It makes me feel like there is no way a horse could get out from under me. False feelings I know, but that's what it feels like to me.

I took a picture of the side showing how deep the seat is, and one from the top which should indicate the twist.

Also pictured is the temporary rigging from my pack saddle using a Y cinch. Don't know why it's call a Y, when viewed from the bottom it forms a K with the straight line going around the cinch area and the legs going to the back of the saddle. That arrangement is supposed to stabilize the back of the saddle without impinging upon the deep breathing of the horse.

I can mount from the ground with this setup, even with my knees.


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## AnitaAnne

Interesting saddle! Can see why you would feel like a horse can't get out from under you. Almost looks like a sling perched above the horse; don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that before.


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> Interesting saddle! Can see why you would feel like a horse can't get out from under you. Almost looks like a sling perched above the horse; don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that before.


Underneath the leather seat is a nylon affair normally referred to as a hammock, I believe, but sling also works for me.

Or if you wish to be super technical, it could be called a hyperbolic paraboloid. Yikes!

The design is from the 1902 British Cavalry saddle still in use by the British today.

The design allows the saddle seat to form to the riders seat somewhat.


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## AnitaAnne

Hmm. Little too early for advanced mathematics for me...I'll stick with "sling" or "hammock", thank you! 

So in essence a treeless saddle for the rider only...


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> Hmm. Little too early for advanced mathematics for me...I'll stick with "sling" or "hammock", thank you!
> 
> So in essence a treeless saddle for the rider only...


I think of it as a cross between a traditional English saddle and a Western saddle. English on top and Western on the bottom.

The saddle bars are much different on the 1902 UP (universal pattern) and the Haggis saddle I did the make over on. The bars, to me, are horrible but apparently they fit well enough to pull off a dead horse and throw onto another. But I really like the hammock seat idea.


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## SwissMiss

@Hondo, the saddle I am looking at/drooling over has the same suspended seat principle. Heard the same thing: you either love or hate that type of saddle! And supposedly with prolonged use the seat of your saddle will mold somewhat to your shape.
Luckily the company offers demo saddles - as soon as the weather gets a little more predictable for riding, I will take advantage of it, to figure out if _I_ like it


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## Hondo

@SwissMiss Well, we are all waiting to hear who the manufacturer/brand of the saddle is???


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## SwissMiss

Double Diamond Saddles http://doublediamondequine.com/saddles/double-diamond-tek-saddles/
Since they are custom made, they cost a pretty penny, though


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## Hondo

Thank you @SwissMiss ! You are looking at a Henry Miller. Here's the site for Eli Miller the originator of Henry's saddles. https://www.customcomfortsaddles.com/

And I found a discussion on a leather workers site about suspension seat saddles. And a couple of negative comments about them.

This is cool. A suspension seat can be built on a Steel tree. For a price. More to think about.

Does any one know about suspension saddles and tree construction? - Saddle Construction - Leatherworker.net


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## SwissMiss

Yep. I really like the streamlined design of the DD TEK saddles and a weight below 20 lbs is not too bad either 
I only "talked" to the person there on fb (time difference always throws me off to call during business hours), but it's one of my new year's resolutions to get the ball rolling.

And I really like the idea overall... However, I am thinking of trialing a Steele saddle as well - just trying to figure out what will work best for my girl and me (and my wallet )


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## Hondo

SwissMiss said:


> However, I am thinking of trialing a Steele saddle as well


I suppose you've seen Steele's Fit to be seen fitting procedure?

20 pounds is not bad but every pound I can get off the saddle is a pound of food for Hondo or water for Roman that I can carry. The 8.5 pound Ghost is just insane and with the right leathers and stirrup choices it should stay under 10 er 11 pounds. If I weighed 125 pounds I wouldn't be as concerned with weight. Heck, at that weight I could carry enough stuff to do an over niter.


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## SwissMiss

Hondo said:


> I suppose you've seen Steele's Fit to be seen fitting procedure?
> 
> 20 pounds is not bad but every pound I can get off the saddle is a pound of food for Hondo or water for Roman that I can carry. The 8.5 pound Ghost is just insane and with the right leathers and stirrup choices it should stay under 10 er 11 pounds. If I weighed 125 pounds I wouldn't be as concerned with weight. Heck, at that weight I could carry enough stuff to do an over niter.


Yes, and they (Trail Saddles by Steele) will send you a demo to try out for 3 weeks to see if you like the saddle and then (if so inclined) you start fitting the tree and designing your saddle... 
They are a bit heavier than the DD saddles but that 5 lbs difference (15 vs 20) is not making a huge difference...

Where I ride, food for the horse is rarely a problem...


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## Hondo

I was bothered a bit when DD said they didn't tell the customers which Steele tree they used and gave some reasons. If I were buying a saddle from them, I would select the tree based on fit to be seen and then tell them which tree I wanted the saddle built on.

If they had a problem with that, adios. I could never allow someone to fit my horse without my input. By and large, I have the feeling that most saddle makers are not all that up on fitting the horse. Just my feelings and I'm sure it doesn't extend to all saddle makers.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> Hondo still seems very happy with the Trooper. I have read reviews where people said they couldn't get off a Trooper fast enough. But for my particular conformation, the fit is fantastic. Felt even better after riding he Barefoot and Ghost.





Hondo said:


> every pound I can get off the saddle is a pound of food for Hondo or water for Roman that I can carry.


Is weight the reason you are not content to ride in the Trooper? Not meaning to be snarky, but I am genuinely curious why you are doing so much testing and shopping and pad creating if you already have a saddle that you both like.


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## Hondo

@phantomhorse13

Weight, just weight, and only weight. The Trooper is about 32 pounds. The Ghost, with nylon leathers which I ordered today due in Friday, the Trooper fenders, and light stirrups should come in at around 12 pounds.

Forage is very sparse in some of these parts. Twenty pounds will allow 1/2 days rations for Hondo to fill in the forage, water and food for me and Roman, 2 pound Exped mattress and about 3 a pound down bag.

I simply would not try that with the Trooper. Hondo is very stout, but I would not feel comfortable with that load. I want him to last as long as I do.

The horse I did pack with has a bad foot and neither Dragon or Dolly is ready for that sort of trip. Plus I'd like to spend a night out with just Hondo and Roman.

Some suggest I simply get an English saddle as they come in light also. But Hondo has a back that is extremely hard to fit. That is the reason I formed custom bars for the Trooper to fit him. He is 18 inches from scapula to 18th. That leaves only 16 inches of saddle fit area. A treeless will fit him. None of the custom saddle makers were interested in fitting him, not that I could afford them anyhow.

Sorry for the lengthy answer, but there were lots of considerations and reasons for what I'm doing.


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## SwissMiss

Hondo said:


> I could never allow someone to fit my horse without my input. By and large, I have the feeling that most saddle makers are not all that up on fitting the horse. Just my feelings and I'm sure it doesn't extend to all saddle makers.


The gal that fits the saddles for DD is a professional fitter... While I am not naive enough to believe that everyone that does something for a living is actually _really good_ at it, I can't deny that they have much more experience in the process than I do... So I don't have a problem with someone I trust making the decision. Even if it's only because I lack the knowledge... Still won't keep me from double-checking :wink:


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## Hondo

@SwissMiss Yes, I would very much like to recieve the services of a professional fitter, just as I recieve the professional services of a doctor. But just like you, I'll be doing some double checking for certain.

The thing that bothered me is that they choose a Steele tree but then say:

Quote " It is our policy to not divulge which tree is best for your animal. The reason for this is they are specific to our saddles, and another saddle maker uses different skirting, rigging, pommel height, gullet width, underside materials etc. which can change the fit. "

And further down go on to say:

Quote: "Do you guarantee fit? That's impossible due to the fact that all our equines change with fitness, age, and health. However we have an excellent track record and part of your relationship with us is we offer saddle fitting knowledge after you receive your saddle. We teach you a few techniques to "read your fit" for now, six months from now, and your other animal."

So to me, I hear them saying TRUST ME. We know what we're doing and it'll be fine, but no guarantees. And no way to perform said double check prior to purchase.

There are just so many different opinions among saddle making companies that it bothers me to just hand over my horse to any company.

One particular area is where the front tree point sits on the horse. Traditionally the tree is designed to sit in an area called the "wither pocket" and many high end companies still do this. It is coming to light however that this may cause muscle wastage in the shoulder area. There is just too much information and knowledge that has come to light to just trust that any company has kept up with new developments.........in my mind.

I compare it somewhat to hoof care. Many a professional is performing hoof care based on what was known 100 years ago. But nobody would go to a dentist that used the knowledge and tools from 100 years ago.

I'm a deeply entrenched DIY'er and self advocate.

I really really like discussions about almost anything. There is always something to learn. I had thought that the Trooper saddle design was specific to the Trooper but due to your input I've learned that there is a whole class of saddles under the "suspension seat" design.


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## Hondo

And now there is the "Cantilevered" saddle design. So many choices. So little money.

buasaddles


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## SwissMiss

@Hondo, glad I could point you to some new info :wink:

And yes, you are right: so many choices and so little money!


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> The thing that bothered me is that they choose a Steele tree but then say:
> 
> Quote " It is our policy to not divulge which tree is best for your animal. The reason for this is they are specific to our saddles, and another saddle maker uses different skirting, rigging, pommel height, gullet width, underside materials etc. which can change the fit. "


Wow, that would have me raising my eyebrows too!! While I agree lots of things can change the way a saddle fits, the overall tree is what determines a lot of those things listed, not the other way around.

I am not sure if english-type saddle companies are not so secretive or if I have just gotten lucky in my shopping. For example, the Arabian Saddle Company was very happy to look at a wither tracing I sent and suggest a tree width since I didn't have a company rep anywhere near me to come measure for me. Seems silly to do otherwise, as how else would I spend my money with them?!


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## Hondo

Exactly. They do say the customer can bring the horse to them, or they will travel to the horse. Or if that's not an option they will send directions for tracings. And they also mention the plastic thingie that can be put in the oven then on the horses back, forgot the name, can be used. But after all that is done, THEY will select the tree and they WON'T tell you which one.

Another thing that caught my eye that I didn't mention is their saying that, "different skirting, rigging, pommel height, gullet width, underside materials etc". I thought, wait a minute. Pommel height and gullet width is fixed once a particular Steele tree is selected. At least that was my understanding from a phone conversation with them. So when they select xyz tree, there is only one gullet width and pommel height that goes with it.

I'd sure have some questions to ask before ordering.


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## AnitaAnne

Hondo said:


> And now there is the "Cantilevered" saddle design. So many choices. So little money.
> 
> buasaddles


This looks interesting in theory; but i do wonder if the feel of the horse is lost with the elevation. My seat is an integral part of my cues to my horse. 

Plus it resembles a springboard...would that increase my trajectory when my loving horse tosses me? He seems to do that about once a year :falloff:


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> This looks interesting in theory; but i do wonder if the feel of the horse is lost with the elevation. My seat is an integral part of my cues to my horse.
> 
> Plus it resembles a springboard...would that increase my trajectory when my loving horse tosses me? He seems to do that about once a year :falloff:


I did think about all that. Also if it was too weak I wondered if it could bang on the horses back. But they mention that the stiffness is adjustable. And they also "claim" excellent feel of the horse, but still I wonder also.

When I did my Trooper make over I was desperate for a well fitting saddle as I had just operated on a $275 Supracor to keep the saddle I was using from doing harm so I could keep riding.

I paid no attention to weight. Just make it STRONG and make it fit.

Now there are various designs and ideas floating around in my skull about how I could preserve the hyperbolic parabaloid hammock fit for the narrow twist and deep secure seat while keeping the total weight down to no more than 15 pounds. I do have a few ideas that would work, but the techniques of how would take some time. And my favorite idea would have the saddle bars detachable with a different bars that could be attached in place. Different horse? Switch bars. Differing gullet widths would still be a problem.

Something to think about. Keeps me out of the bars and home at night. Ha. Nearest bar is 50 miles away. Don't remember when I was last in one.


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## AnitaAnne

Hondo said:


> I did think about all that. Also if it was too weak I wondered if it could bang on the horses back. But they mention that the stiffness is adjustable. And they also "claim" excellent feel of the horse, but still I wonder also.
> 
> When I did my Trooper make over I was desperate for a well fitting saddle as I had just operated on a $275 Supracor to keep the saddle I was using from doing harm so I could keep riding.
> 
> I paid no attention to weight. Just make it STRONG and make it fit.
> 
> Now there are various designs and ideas floating around in my skull about how I could preserve the hyperbolic parabaloid hammock fit for the narrow twist and deep secure seat while keeping the total weight down to no more than 15 pounds. I do have a few ideas that would work, but the techniques of how would take some time. And my favorite idea would have the saddle bars detachable with a different bars that could be attached in place. Different horse? Switch bars. Differing gullet widths would still be a problem.
> 
> Something to think about. Keeps me out of the bars and home at night. Ha. Nearest bar is 50 miles away. Don't remember when I was last in one.


Easiest would be to design it as a component saddle; separate seats to go over separate gullet bars and separate panels for the "tree". 

The seats could snap or better yet zip on. Could make it out of varying material; leather, sheepskin, canvas, etc.

The gullet bars could be flexible to some degree (although may take some strength to bend) and that would only leave the panels of the actual tree to be flexed or straight; longer or shorter, etc. with varying attachment points for the bars to lock in place. 

Did I mention used to be in engineering? Nothing I like more than designing things...


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> Did I mention used to be in engineering? Nothing I like more than designing things...


Oh goodie! Me too! If I'm not trying to figure something out, I'm soon nodding off.

So I'll throw this on you. I want to preserve the .....here it comes......hyperbolic parabaloid seat that will form to the rider.

So one idea would be to form a one piece aluminum tubing of the required thickness and structural strength. 

The tubing would form the gullet and shoulder angle, curve back along the bar, then form the rear structural portion holding the back side of "HP", and up the other bar to the gullet.

Then the hammock could be supported by that framework. There are some strong aluminum fittings that go around various sized aluminum tubing. I have some. Those could be used to attach the bars. The aluminum pieces could also be positioned or slid up or back on the frame work which would adjust bars forward or back, which indirectly would move the seat forward of back in the opposite direction.

The shoulder angle could be built into the different bars as required by a different horse, but the gullet would be the problem with that design. The gullet would need to be fairly strong to support said HP hammock.

The pommel/gullet could be made a little wide and the bars could take up some of that so as to fit a variation in sizes but it would be more limited than a bendable pommel.

The thought of hinging the attachment points of the bar is also in my thoughts. As well as making the bars out of strong material yet with a certain amount of flex.

We brainstorming?


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## AnitaAnne

Hondo said:


> Oh goodie! Me too! If I'm not trying to figure something out, I'm soon nodding off.
> 
> So I'll throw this on you. I want to preserve the .....here it comes......hyperbolic parabaloid seat that will form to the rider.
> 
> So one idea would be to form a one piece aluminum tubing of the required thickness and structural strength.
> 
> The tubing would form the gullet and shoulder angle, curve back along the bar, then form the rear structural portion holding the back side of "HP", and up the other bar to the gullet.
> 
> Then the hammock could be supported by that framework. There are some strong aluminum fittings that go around various sized aluminum tubing. I have some. Those could be used to attach the bars. The aluminum pieces could also be positioned or slid up or back on the frame work which would adjust bars forward or back, which indirectly would move the seat forward of back in the opposite direction.
> 
> The shoulder angle could be built into the different bars as required by a different horse, but the gullet would be the problem with that design. The gullet would need to be fairly strong to support said HP hammock.
> 
> The pommel/gullet could be made a little wide and the bars could take up some of that so as to fit a variation in sizes but it would be more limited than a bendable pommel.
> 
> The thought of hinging the attachment points of the bar is also in my thoughts. As well as making the bars out of strong material yet with a certain amount of flex.
> 
> We brainstorming?


Absolutely, but it's gonna cost ya $5 :razz:

My $0.02

It can be done :smile:

Adjustable attachments are the only way to make it work. Will need to adjust at two points, at the bars and off center of the raised gullet. That will allow for width and angle changes. 

Need to focus on strong yet _lightweight _materials, as weight is a large consideration. 

Not sure all that aluminum is a good idea. Do believe a molded Ralide material would be lighter yet strong and give consistent results if you are planning for eventual construction. At least for the bars.


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## Hondo

Ralide was actually something I had thought about. But do you know how much those molds cost? Plus Ralide had problems of fatigue and hardening in the early years until they got the formula perfected. Not sure they'd be wanting to share that. But they'd probably make a mold for enough up front money. More that $5 for certain!

For the HP hammock to work, there would be a lot of force pulling the gullet toward the rear. So that would have to have a certain amount of strength. But if the gullet were hinged, then if that angle change, angles over the entire frame would need to change as well. That would require fittings at each of the hinge points which could become problematic.

I also thought about making the HPH (hyperbolic paraboloid hammock) framework out of carbon fiber but there would need to be some inserts at the bottom for bar attachment. With still no adjustment at the pommel.

Might make super wide pommel with an adjustable pommel inside the rigid wide pommel.

Time for a walk...........to much sitting while thinking fuzzes my brain.


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## AnitaAnne

Hondo said:


> Ralide was actually something I had thought about. But do you know how much those molds cost? Plus Ralide had problems of fatigue and hardening in the early years until they got the formula perfected. Not sure they'd be wanting to share that. But they'd probably make a mold for enough up front money. More that $5 for certain!
> 
> For the HP hammock to work, there would be a lot of force pulling the gullet toward the rear. So that would have to have a certain amount of strength. But if the gullet were hinged, then if that angle change, angles over the entire frame would need to change as well. That would require fittings at each of the hinge points which could become problematic.
> 
> I also thought about making the HPH (hyperbolic paraboloid hammock) framework out of carbon fiber but there would need to be some inserts at the bottom for bar attachment. With still no adjustment at the pommel.
> 
> Might make super wide pommel with an adjustable pommel inside the rigid wide pommel.
> 
> Time for a walk...........to much sitting while thinking fuzzes my brain.


Hmm. The HPH would change if there were hinges on the gullet, but minimally if placed correctly. Some amount of flexibility is required anyway in a hammock design; not meant to be stationary. The twist should remain relatively stable. 

Was thinking of molded gullet bars with slats (similar to those that hold stirrups) for the HPH attachment points. 

At least four preferably six (buckle?) straps to attach the HPH to the frame at either end. The lower ones could be longer or shorter as needed.

Have you ever seen pictures of the Natural Ride Saddle? It is basically a Ralide gullet with stirrups and girth to go over a pad. I have one, but it fits no horse I own. However I kept looking at the frame thinking it should be adjustable...


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## Hondo

Ha!That's pretty darn interesting! Does it have good spine and processes clearance?

The HPH in the 1902UP/Troopre saddle design has the length ways straps sewn around the rear frame. The front end has heavy leather with holes it it. A cord is threaded through holes in the front frame and stretched tight. If things give, the cord can be re-tightened. Then a second piece of heavy leather is also sewed to the same ends. The leather loop of the seat is threaded to that and stretch tight. And as the leather gives, that can be tightened up some more.

And then other pieces are stretched across sideways and attached to the bars. In my aluminum tube design these cross pieces would attach to the aluminum tube and not the bars.


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## whisperbaby22

I've used a natural ride for years and did a post on it here.


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## AnitaAnne

The Natural Ride has good spinal clearance on the firm Gullet piece, but since the rest is just a pad there is no clearance anywhere else. I had planned to try it with a Skito Treeless pad, but the round side pieces (where the stirrups and girth attach) were too narrow even for my medium width horse (no longer with me)

Your idea on the seat would work as it is now, if you wanted to have it be fixed and not changeable based on width of horse. Having adjustment capabilities will change the HPH if attached to the bars as shown

Ah just remembered you planned for it to attach to the frame, not the bars. Might work! 

Would there be enough thickness to the bars to have a groove the frame could sit in? The frame could then rotate easily in the grove. Also that lump would not be under the leg either.


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## Hondo

Well, I've done more thinking. Can't stop. 

First on the adjustable gullet/pommel. It really doesn't make much difference what the gullet/pommel height width is as long as it doesn't bear on the horse. What is important in the front is bar spread and bar angle.

If the bars were attached in the front to the sloping part of the frame below the pommel loop (i'll call it), then if the bars could be slid inward or outward and could pivot, then that would be an easily and infinitely adjustable bar spread/angle.

The bars would not be thick enough for a groove. Plus it wouldn't work anyhow if the bar spread was adjustable on the front sloping piece.

I'm thinking two hinges on each bar. But two regular hinges would have to have their shafts lined up just like two hinges on a door. So......I'm thinking of something I'll call a ball joint that could pivot in any direction. That way, no matter where the second hinge was located, it would automatically be lined up.

Without researching further on what is available, something on the order of this.








As far as the bars themselves, I'm thinking Kydex thermal plastic. Very strong, as flexible as desired based on thickness, and very easily heat formed. And if not heated beyond a certain temperature, can be re-heated and re-formed over and over. Kydex is the material that the interior of air liners are made up of.

High school friend worked in a mold shop for Kydex for years for Baniff Airlines.

Kydex is the material used for the bars on my makeover. Two layers of 1/4". One layer would have been plenty and I think from working with it that 3/16" would produce the stiffness/flexibility combination that would work well.

I noticed in the video the BUA cantilever is made from thermal plastic. It is a space age plastic that has many applications.

I simply used a heat gun and an infrared thermometer to control the temperature. But good molds placed in ovens at a set temperature for a set time is better of course.

So if the bars were self aligning, all that would be needed in the bar design would be length and angle of twist from front to rear. An adjustable mold or frame could easily be fabricated to produce any bar needed in a very short time.

Whew. I got wound up. Better stop or I won't sleep. But writing this all down does help the creative process. It's fun!


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## AnitaAnne

Sounds like a plan; will the ball joint need to be secured in position? Or are you planning to allow it to flex? 

A simple pin could be used in conjunction with the ball joint to lock the joint in position. 

Will the Kydex hold screws? Is it cost effective? Those BUA cantilevered saddles looked expensive, very expensive. Was not being marketed to trail riders, lol.


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## Hondo

kydex is very cost effective. The front and rear frame plus the stirrup mounts are through bolted with stainless steel counter sunk heads. But the mounts for the cinch are attached with bronze wood screws from the original wood bars.
When the multi-horse rodeo occurred with the saddle banging around under Hondo the leather cinch straps to the bars finally broke but the screws stayed in.

So yes, the Kydex will hold a screw. But the bars are 1/2 inch thick and I'd like to use around 3/16th I think. For that thickness there would need to be small plates on top of the bars with counter sunk machine screws into the plates which would hold the pivot ball.

I would leave the ball and socket to rotate with both muscle movement and seasonal changes. I always take up a couple of notches in my belt during the more active summer months. But with Hondo he seems to gain in the summer with the lush forage and thin down in the winter with less sugary stuff around. But seasonal changes never the less.

I would want the rotation of the bars to be restricted somewhat to not much more than what might be needed for seasonal changes and muscle movement. I would try the design without the ball/socket just experimenting with flexible bars to see if that alone would be enough to accommodate changes. The ball/socket would add a lot of complexity to the overall idea.

I will mention that the 1912 UP did have rotating bars. The design was bad and rather than correct it the British Cavalry just went back to the original 1902 UP design.

I still think it was a good idea as it would allow a good fit to two horses that had the same bar twist but different shoulder slopes. But using attachments that could be adjusted and then bolted tight in place would be much simpler. But using thin Kydex would still require some small attachment plates of say a 2 inch diameter with 3 or 4 through countersunk head bolts.

Time to let these ideas "soak" for a while and then come back to them.

And next on the agenda would be nailing down the bar design and saddle fit area. I had a seven email exchange conversation replete with photographs concerning the saddle fit area with the director of education at saddlefit 4 life yesterday. The saddle fit area is still remaining somewhat of a moving target for me.

The new BUA cantilever tree/frame does not have any real good pictures of the bottom of the tree but there is some views of it on the stress machine they tested it with. I captured one screen shot and their bars are a little bit reminiscent of my bars. 

The angle of the photos are different but they go down low with the front of the bars as I did. I believe that helps with ground mounting preventing or reducing saddle roll. It may even remove some shear forces on the skin.


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## AnitaAnne

Bars are similar in the front. The Treeless saddles are similar with a longer front than back, though of course soft padding. 

What i like about the BUA cantilevered design is the smoothness and lack of bolts/screws/nails. Have had hardware break or strip on saddles in the past and was very aggravating. 

Would try one on my boy if I could get ahold of one reasonable. 

Build a prototype of your adjustable design; I think you are ready for it.


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## Hondo

While the he lack of hardware on the BUA is appealing, they do mention that at this time there is only one tree that will fit a limited number of horses.

It also looks as if the BUA tree is a little higher up toward the withers than mine which should be at least an inch higher. The back of my tree has been cut off, rounded, and sloped upward since that picture.

Lacking a warm shop to work in, I'll postpone a prototype for a while and make use of the favorable part of the day for riding.

Plus I'll need to get a tubing bender if I want to try tubing. And decide what tubing as there is a plethora of tubing designs. Plus a number of materials to pack the inside of the tube with during the bending process for smooth bends. Plus the bends will have to be super accurate in location. So playing around with all that would come before any actual prototype building.

Just as I was writing this I remember there is a series of aluminum tubing of sizes that are designed to slide inside one another. Hmmm....


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## AnitaAnne

The BUA looks to be designed for jumping; the Dressage style reviews were disappointing. They would need to have separate saddles for every shape, the design is not adjustable insofar as the fit to the horse.

Have you considered making the saddle adjustable by the addition of a selection of bars? The tubing could have fittings along the horizontal lines to remove or change the bars. 

As an alternative, with the thin flexible bars could be produced in different widths, eliminating the need to rotate.


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> Have you considered making the saddle adjustable by the addition of a selection of bars?


Well yes. That is the basis of my entire design thoughts. Quick changing bars for different horses. And to accommodate different shoulder widths and slopes having a mount that could be slid inward or outward.

All bars have a certain degree or angle of twist in them (not seat twist) from front to back. A selection of bars could be made with different lengthwise twists, and if they could be rotated to fit the slope of the shoulder, that's all that would be needed.

If a set of bars needed to be made to fit both the slope of the shoulder and the twist, that would multiply the number of bars needed. Cheaper and easier to have the bars rotate into position when installed, whether to be fixed after rotating into position, or left to rotate a slight amount.

Whether to have the bars rotate or not would be determined, I think, by how the flexible bars behaved while riding.

The twist in the bars has to be set, but the other parameters need to be adjustable or there would be a truckload of bars needed to be certain to fit any horse in a herd.


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## Hondo

And BTW, all bars have a certain rock which would have to be fixed. So there is length, twist, and rock to fit a horse. That's a lot of bars to be made in small increments.

There are other features of bars like slope on the edges and convexness that could be the same for all the bars. But adjustment of the other parameters would be mandatory. And I don't trust flexibility of the bars to accommodate adjustment. That would produce uneven pressure across the bar.


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## Hondo

Somehow, building a lightweight Trooper for just Hondo, my mind somehow got morphed into a saddle for all with interchangeable bars and adjustability for any horse. With the structure needed to support the retro HPH and the very wide variation in shoulder widths and angles, I'm beginning to think it may not be feasible to create a lightweight adjustable with the retro HPH. I do think a saddle with modular bars is quite possible, but I'm questioning if it is when using the HPH design.

If I do anything at all, I will start by trying to devise a lightweight Trooper for just one horse, Hondo. And then go from there.


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## Hondo

Well shoot. The thin nylon leathers for the Ghost got delayed. All week the tracking kept saying Cleveland, OH. They finally made it out of Cleveland yesterday and are now due in Tuesday. Must have gotten delayed by snow.

Have been spending tons of time looking at tubing benders. Using a frame of 1" tubing with 1/8" thick walls would leave the frame weighing about 2.5 pounds.

Today I will put some plastic 1" pipe under the flap on the Trooper bars and see if it interfere's with the seat twist. Fingers crossed on that. A fail there will send everything back to the drawing board.

Just for something to do, I bolted the one good original bar onto the original front trooper frame and put it on the model of Hondo's back. Notice how wide the bars were set in the back. And the bars have zero twist in them. I used the same rear frame but widened bar with it extending way inward for a 4.5" clearance.

If anyone has wondered why I chose to rework the Trooper, they will wonder no more. I doubt there is a horse in the world that the original bars would have fit.


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## AnitaAnne

What I really love about all this is the actual frame you made of Hondo's back! Best idea ever!! 

:thumbsup:


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## egrogan

I can’t play in the saddle fit discussion, nor nerd out on engineering approaches :wink: BUT @Hondo, you’ve used the word “hammock” a couple of times, and I wondered if you’d read the book Tschiffley’s Ride? Just finished it up last night, and early on he talks about selecting his tack...the hammock concept is discussed in some detail. He seems fairly certain his horses’ backs were comfortable throughout the some 10k miles he rode and packed them.

Anyway, maybe not helpful at all, so please excuse the interruption!


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## Hondo

egrogan said:


> Anyway, maybe not helpful at all, so please excuse the interruption!


Interuption??? Not even! 

I have a copy of Tschiffley’s Ride and have read it. And have went back and read up on his saddle as he was so fond of it and it never sored either horse. It looks to have the same general shape of an HPH on top but some of the construction details were a little vague. But he was great and did a great ride. And an English teacher at that. Not bad.

@AnitaAnne Thank you!That was the only way I could think of to warp and clamp the bars while they were being heated.

Out on the trail for 7.5 hours again today with the trail committee for about fifteen miles. Little 9 month old Roman did the entire trip and never seemed tired. But he went to bed/sleep without eating. Poor little guy. They were two other dogs for him to run and play with for the entire trip.

I got a little video but forgot to turn it on for some sections I wanted. Will post when rested.

While riding I was playing with the flap and feeling around and there is just no way to have room for a 1" tube on top of the bars. That idea is in the round file.

Now I'm leaning toward a carbon fiber HPH shape for the seat and then using a Supracor saddle pad that will go a long way in instantly adjusting to an individual rider tush with 100% instant recovery for a different tush.

Cogitating on the bar connection but the leg needs to be very close to the bar for a good seat twist and stay as close to the horse as possible.

7 PM. Dogs are fed. Horses are fed and watered. I'm ready to hit the ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.


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## Hondo

New leathers finally made it in today. Late, but made it in.

Ghost Saddle + panels= 8.5 lbs.
Stirrups + fenders = 4.0
Leathers = 1.0
Girth = 1.0
............
14.5 lbs

I can actually support the entire thing with my left pinkie. I can throw it up on Hondo with the first two fingers of either hand.

The twist without the leathers installed is fantastic. With the leathers installed, is more narrow than the Barefoot but a ways down from fantastic.

I had thought I ordered plain nylon leathers but they turned out to be nylon lined leather leathers. Much thicker than I had hoped for but thin enough to thread into the leather ring on the Ghost.

But there was a bit of a problem when riding. The ring for the leathers is right under my upper thigh. And the leathers exit through the flap just below the ring. So there is the ring, a loop of leather going through it above and below, and then the slot in the flap presents two more layers of leather, one above the leathers, and one below.

All in all there is a fairly good knot under my upper thigh that is not bad for a short, but on an 8 hour day might become aggravating. The worst part however is the amount of twist it adds to, or reduces. Makes it fatter.

There are pictures below that will depict all this. Or at least some of it.

One solution I will try tomorrow is a loop of nylon webbing running from the Ghost attachment, through the slot, and tied around another ring. (a stitch will be placed in the knot to prevent loosening). And the rearward of two choices of leather location was chosen. Feeling with just my hand, I believe my thighs will be happy tomorrow. Also pictured below.

@gottatrot mentioned that some people liked to run the leathers under the flap. I think I know why. But I need the fenders for my beginner needs of stirrup stability and those fenders under the flap might not work out so well.

I still didn't feel comfortable in the English stirrups even with my narrow lacer boots. I may throw the uber heavy Trooper stirrups on tomorrow.

It was late by the time I got out and only about 1 hour was ridden.

Since the panels have bottoms that are the exact same sympanova that the HAF pad has, I decided there was no need for two layers of sympanova. So I used the saddle sans pad. I would not have except the panels are mine.

I rigged up a flexible test shaft with a 1/2" test height. Went through fine. So there is good spine clearance.

When dismounting the saddle had a tendency to tip forward as it had the other day before moving the saddle more forward.

After unsaddling, the imprint of the panels was very clear. I marked around the near side one with black marker. (pictured below)

Then on the saddle, I measured the distance from the front of the panel to where I think my sit bones are. 

There is a black spot of hair on Hondo's left shoulder that I use to measure to the back of his scapula. This time I measured to the back of the wither where I should be sitting.

Boy was I surprised. The picture of Hondo with the saddle and girth is after we came in. The picture of Hondo and the saddle without the girth, is where the saddle SHOULD have been when riding.

Lot's of moving parts in this horsey business!!!

So I'm all geared up for further testing tomorrow. just have to wait for daylite. And warmth.

It will never feel as deep and secure as the Trooper, and I doubt any treeless will or could. But if I had my druthers, I'd ride bareback except now I know it's not good for the horse and I'm too old and feeble anyhow. But the treeless is a big step away from treed towards bareback. That I like.

And with both saddle being in closer contact, it may be my imagination, but it did seem like they pitched forward and rearward in much less of an amplitude.

Picture time. In no particular order. I'll have to add the rest to a second page.


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## Hondo

The rest.......

Edit: looking at those pictures the saddle looks too far forward. I need to get a more exact location of my sit bones on the saddle to be certain of the proper location.


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## gottatrot

Those panel marks look good. I hope you can find a way to reduce that lumpiness under the leg. I couldn't stand the lump from the stirrup buckle on the english leathers so had to buckle them on with the buckle down near the stirrup. If it rubs a little at the beginning of a ride, you will have an open wound or big bruise after a couple hours.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Those panel marks look good. I hope you can find a way to reduce that lumpiness under the leg. I couldn't stand the lump from the stirrup buckle on the english leathers so had to buckle them on with the buckle down near the stirrup. If it rubs a little at the beginning of a ride, you will have an open wound or big bruise after a couple hours.


On the second to last picture on the second page the buckle can be seen right adjacent to the top of the stirrup. So the lumpiness is just from the leather. I believe the thin nylon webbing will relieve most if not all of the lumpiness. If using long term in that setup I would choose to use Kevlar webbing. I use Kevlar shoe strings. It costs but it lasts.

In my fairly lengthy email exchange with the Education Director of saddlefit4life one sentence stuck in my mind, Quote: "The horse’s body would love for you to sit as close to the base of the withers as possible. " End Quote

Based on that statement, I _think_ the saddle _may_ be too far back. Today I plan to sit on the saddle on the plywood model where I can futz around and get a good measurement on where my seat bones actually are on the saddle.

It is interesting that Cavallin, principle designer of Ghost, has moved away from having the girth and leathers attachment points in that location in his newly designed saddle bearing his name. No lumpiness at the old location anymore.

With the panels in the location as marked at the end of the ride, the girth was sloped way forward rather than straight up and down. Hondo's big 'ole shoulder muscles seem to shove anything that gets in the way back behind it. So the girth was pulling forward and he was pushing backward.

The video of the lady showing where to place the Freeform had the panels way up on top of the scapula.

So it's a puzzle I've been wrestling with all night. Just waiting for daylight.


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## Hondo

I am a low skill rider. There are those occasions that I need to weight one stirrup rather heavily just to stay on top of the horse and not fall off. And that need is multiplied during a spin/bolt or violent shy.

I flirted with riding bareback early on and almost ended my riding career prior to the end of my first year.

For my own safety, I need a saddle that is as rotationally stable as reasonably possible.

A treed saddle, that fits, is just more rotationally stable than a treeless saddle. Any treeless saddle.

The suggestion might be made that I focus on becoming a more proficient rider. Looking back on the past four years and what I've enjoyed most, that is just not likely to happen other than small increments.

Other than the possibility that a treeless could possibly be easier on a horse's back, a debate far from reaching a resolution, the Trooper "HPH" saddle has only one fault or lacking to my preference. It's just way to heavy.

I have resolved that the weight will be reduced by at least 15 pounds or more within one year or less. After my recent mental flailing on the method for reducing said weight, I do now have a workable plan for achieving that goal. It will require the construction of some carefully made molds and a large thermally controlled oven, but hey, I'm retired and have time on my hands.

As far as comparing the Barefoot and the Ghost, there are clear advantages and disadvantages to each, depending on rider preferences and rider conformation. I suppose that's why both companies are still in business. For myself, I would probably have chosen the Ghost based on the more narrow twist. But the Ghost might not be as comfortable to a rider with wider seat bones. And I'm certain those riders would hate my Trooper which fits me like an old glove.

All in all, it's been an enjoyable learning experience for me. Hopefully for others as well, at least to some degree.


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## AnitaAnne

I would prefer a more narrow twist than the Barefoot has, but most of the wideness is because my horse is wide, not really the saddles fault! On my riding buddy's mare with the medium gullet, it is quite comfortable. 

The horse chose the Barefoot model, and the older I get it seems like I am more concerned with making my horse's life enjoyable and fun than I am controlling him or "being the boss". Seems like we are both happier when he is content. Life is Good. 

Next horse will be hopefully a bit more narrow


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## Hondo

I think you used the bolster to narrow the Barefoot also if I remember. To be fair, I should have mentioned that I didn't try that. But if it was as rotationally stable as the Trooper, I could easily live with the twist without the bolster.

There likely will not be another horse is my life as far as riding goes.

I agree with the happiness of the horse being paramount, but if I fell off and got badly hurt, Hondo's life would likely take a serious downturn also.

And I've done two 8 hour days on the Trooper without finding anything on his back that felt sore. So I do believe he's ok with the Trooper although I'm sure he would appreciate a little less weight.


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## Hondo

My current thoughts on a light HPH tree is to press the base out of 1/4" thick Kydex similar to Steele's Fit To Be Seen.









I'd cut out around 24 1/2" sections of plywood matching Hondo's back with them all attached into one piece. The top part of the cut outs would be attached into another single piece. Then the two pieces would be used as a press to form a one piece base for the tree out of Kydex. I believe this would be strong and rigid enough to support the front and rear frames supporting the HPH which would be made out of Kydex also and bolted to the base.

Looking like a fun project with lots of learning curves. (pun intended


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## AnitaAnne

Yes my saddle I do have the cushion under the seat, which does help a little bit but not as much as I hoped. My riding buddy does not have any added cushion though. 

Making just one saddle to fit one horse should be very workable. Can't wait to see the progress.


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> Can't wait to see the progress.


Well, don't expect anything that can be actually seen very soon. Lots of study and research to be done. I've been reading some tech bulletins from Kydex on a draping procedure for molding. And it's seeming the top half is lined with foam for pressing.

My high school friend that worked for an airlines forming Kydex will be here in March and I'll be interrogating him on how to best accomplish what I want.

The stuff weighs 0.049 Lbs. per cubic inch. I'm estimating the bottom piece similar to Steele's will be between 3-3.5 pounds. The front and rear frames should not be over 1 pound together. They will be wide at the bottom for reinforcing the top where the HPH attaches. I have a lot of 3D images in my head. Wish I knew how to draw them on the computer with Sketchup or something.

I've already done a lot of testing and experimenting with Kydex in addition to forming the bars for the Trooper and have developed at least some feel for its strength and what needs to be reinforced and where. 

So I am actually sort of excited about it.

To fit another horse the bottom piece would need to be changed. Maybe a 3D horse back scanner could be input into a CNC machine to make a wooden form? That'd be cool. Almost too cool.


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## Hondo

I haven't been posting. Just thinking and reading. I've looked at the Bua more and more. Downloaded a copy of the patent application from 2004 in fact. Granted in 2014. Haven't found that yet.

But pictured below is an early prototype that shows the design intent. By a 24 year old college student!

Independent movement of the back of the panel, or could be bars, is ingenuous. I was trying to come up with something like that then remembered the Bua.

Downside is that the tree is so expensive to build, they only have one tree at present with fitting shims to fit more than one horse. And the panels are wool which of course needs maintenance.

Patents do not preclude a person making something for their own use and not for sale. I'll do some testing with scraps I have left over, but with what I've done so far I believe that saddle could be made with Kydex and custom fit to a horse, my horse.

Here's the picture. Check it out.


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## whisperbaby22

Yea, that's interesting.


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## Hondo

I lost my job to technology


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## Hondo

I think Hondo may have some Canadian Horse blood in his veins. What do you think?


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## Dragoon

I've seen two Canadian mares in person, one papered, one not. Both are black, round-barrelled and have tiny feet. And both have the most profuse mane and tail! We are talking Shetland-pony type thick frizzy hair. Calm horses.

A number of breeds are of the 'baroque' type body, and Hondo's shape definitely fits that!
Cheers!


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## Hondo

Got a chance to try out the new saddle setup, the Barefoot with the custom fitted rigid bars today.

First off, even though we only walk (when together) Hondo was stepping out much stronger than usual.

Second off, it was windy and we have had strange horses visiting out of his reach for the last couple days, both of which tend to make him a little more hyper than normal. So it'll take some more rides to really see if he moves any different with it.

We only circled around in the 60 acre field mostly to let the saddle settle in order to check for spin clearance. In one picture the end of my test tool with a 1/2 inch thick end can be seen sticking out the back of the saddle. Yea! Clear all the way! A little snugger under my seat bones but an easy 1/2 clear plus there is some foam under that, so I think I'm good. When the saddle came off it was evident that there had been no pressure for a 4.5 inch strip down his spine.

So now I'm ready for us to go on a real ride to test it a little more thoroughly.

It still feels a little wide right under my thigh where the leather strip runs up from the cantle to the tie strings in front. Why they decided to make that as thick as they did I don't know. But if I ultimately decide to keep the saddle, it will become much thinner in that area. And I may get used to it. The Trooper fits me so so well that it has me spoiled.

Another thing that will take more testing and observation on my part is that it "seemed" to pitch me forward less severly in his animated walk that the Trooper. I'm thinking, but don't claim to know yet for certain, that the bars being able to move independently in the back could reduce the pitching. There's not much movement at the 18th rib but there is some as can be easily felt when walking along side the horse.

Along with a couple of pictures I'm posting a short video of Hondo scampering off to get back to where Dragon and Dolly are eating some very rich and hot alfalfa left by the horse club. I'd like to know if that is a gallop or a canter. I don't know the difference  I do know it'd be so much fun to ride it but will likely never happen.

I've always wrinkled my forehead when reading about horses on the forum breaking out in a run. None of the horses on the ranch ever had done that. But the longer Hondo, Dragon, and Dolly have been with me, the more often they will break out in a run. Sometimes seemingly for no real reason.


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## gottatrot

It looks to me like he scrambles off in a gallop, then drops down to a canter toward the end. It's tricky with the wind, but I believe I can hear the four beats at the beginning, which would indicate gallop. Sometimes it is hard to see or feel, but I often can hear the gallop. 

Even with a faster canter there is a pause in the sound between the three beats, and with the gallop there is more of a continuous tempo to the sound once the horse transitions into the four beat gait.


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## Hondo

Thanks. Looked up the description and the canter looks like half trot and half gallop on paper. Also listened to some youtube sounds of each and could clearly hear the three beats. The two gallops I listened to also had a pause in between but it was like two pause two where the canter was clearly three.

But if I had not been listening for that, I would probably have missed it.


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## Hondo

We did another mile or so around the 60 acre field yesterday and today we did 3.2 miles of back country trail.

As I ride along I think about the bars under the saddle that are the same exact shape as the bars on the Trooper but that they are hinged allowing a little independent movement.

Even though only walking, Hondo was still more forward moving both going out and on the return, except as usual he knows he gets longer grazing spells on the way home so stops more often, but forward when he decides it's time to move on, or I decide. He is going for the short uphill and downhill trots also.

So I'm really thinking the saddle is going to be a winner. I'd like to hear a comment from Schleese on his opinion of the weight distribution of MY treeless saddle.

The saddle pad I bought on sale from Ghost has a different sympanova than the haf pad. It's like verticle thin rubber bars with clear opening in between. Leaves little ridges in Hondo's hair but so far so good. The real test will come with a 15 mile ride to see how his back is but so far so good.

It is really comforting to ride in a treeless knowing there is no way that spine clearance can/could be lost. And that allows for even closer contact and as animated as he is sometimes at a walk I just don't seem to feel the same impulsion forward that I have felt in other saddles. My lumbago seems to like the close contact.

I also tried a double D-ring strap/buckle setup on the hind Renegades today and that test turned out very positive. I've used the same setup on both a pack saddle and the pack on 11 rugged trips and nary a slip. Have never seen it used for tack anywhere but it has worked well for me and the little 1 inch D's fit perfect in the grooves in the front of the boot. Didn't slip a bit.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> The saddle pad I bought on sale from Ghost has a different sympanova than the haf pad. It's like verticle thin rubber bars with clear opening in between. Leaves little ridges in Hondo's hair but so far so good. The real test will come with a 15 mile ride to see how his back is but so far so good.


I have one of those Ghost pads too, and I also like the sympanova better. I don't use the pad much though, because it's rather small. I wish it were square and a bit larger. 



Hondo said:


> It is really comforting to ride in a treeless knowing there is no way that spine clearance can/could be lost.


Yes, that is something that always worries me when I ride in a treeless. The padding can compress a lot over time.



Hondo said:


> I also tried a double D-ring strap/buckle setup on the hind Renegades today and that test turned out very positive. I've used the same setup on both a pack saddle and the pack on 11 rugged trips and nary a slip. Have never seen it used for tack anywhere but it has worked well for me and the little 1 inch D's fit perfect in the grooves in the front of the boot. Didn't slip a bit.


Can you explain what you did? Or post a picture? It sounds interesting.


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## Hondo

First picture is with the strap just running through both D-rings. Second is fastened. This is how I will try one or both on the next ride. Fastened this way, it takes a hoof pic or similar device to spread the D-rings in order to loosen. The third picture is how I tested them. It is a little fiddly go get them fastened like this but the bonus is that the loose end can be pulled to unfasten them.

The material was purchased from Strapworks - Straps, Webbing, Tie-Downs, Buckles & More

They have some D-rings with curved corners. I ordered some of them also but they are too wide to fit in the groove. The D-rings with the square corners fit just right.


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## Hondo

Wonderful evening here at Camp Arizona. Front door open. No screen, no insects. 67F inside, 65F outside. Not forever but I will savor while it lasts, and then remember until it again appears. Arizona has some awesome sunsets. Here's one standing in my front door. Sadly, the picture does not even begin to capture........


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## whisperbaby22

Yea, my attempts to capture the colors fall flat too.


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## Zexious

What a stunning sunset, and perfect weather. Get out there and enjoy a good ride for me!


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## Hondo

I found this interesting. Quoted from "Animals Make Us Human":

Animals trained using positive reinforcements learn faster, too. If you put a horse in a maze and let him find his way out through trial and error, he'll finish faster than a horse that gets a shock when he makes a wrong turn. Paul McGreevy says, "Punishment can stifle creativity and impede the horse's innate problem-solving skills.


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## QueenofFrance08

Have you seen the new Stonewall saddles video with the living bar technology? Not sure if it's anything like what you're trying to create but I know there has been a lot of buzz about it online.


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## Hondo

QueenofFrance08 said:


> Have you seen the new Stonewall saddles video with the living bar technology? Not sure if it's anything like what you're trying to create but I know there has been a lot of buzz about it online.


No, I had not heard of it, but I have now. Just watched this video. Very exciting. 






However, I'm not entirely sold. May be that I don't entirely understand. The tubes are rigid and straight (as i understood) and do not curve to match the surface of the horse. And the rigid chassis that sits upon the tubs must have a dip, it would seem, to fit the sway of the horse (properly called 'rock' in a western saddle)

But after that, yes, I do think they are shooting at the same general idea that I am. Two major differences with mine. One, the bars are not flexible but are very rigid thermoplastic that have been custom fit to the surface of the saddle support area of the horse. The bare bars can be positioned on the horse and there are no air gaps anywhere.

And then the bars are attached to treeless saddle that results in the bars being hinged.

The pad underneath has the center 4.5 inches removed. There is the clearance provided by the treeless saddle plus, in my case, 3/4 inch of pad with no center. The inside edge of the bar runs right along side of the edge of the pad.

In my case, I bought a pad on sale, removed the interior and installed a Supracor pad material. But i'm a little nuts plus I really really like the Supracor and so does Hondo and the astronauts and F18 pilots that sit on them.

Switching gears, I just returned from about an 8 mile ride, the longest I've made on the experimental saddle.

Hondo and I just walk. I'm 76 and only started riding 4 years ago. I thought Hondo liked to walk too. And he does, but not as much with this saddle. If I keep using it, I may learn to trot whether I want to or not.

If I let him I think he would have trotted half the trip. He trotted downhill, he trotted up hill. Steep hill.

All indications are that he loves loves loves his experimental saddle. I expect similar will be made available someday and not that far off. The Kydex plastic is what the interior of all airline interiors are made of so the technology on forming is very advanced.

All that is needed is a clean, fast, economical way to do the custom and it absolutely would not be that hard or expensive.

Hey!! You got me all wound up!

I have even been scheming around in the back of my mind about using a Barefoot treeless for a pack saddle for the last few days. The saddle I have would work. All that would be needed would be to remove the stirrup leathers and install a second velcro stirrup bar setup with one way forward and one way back and hang the pack bags on those.

My plans are to buy another Barefoot and make a set of bars for Dragon and finally start packing him.

Just not enough hours in a day.

Here's the thread where I started thinking about doing this. http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/treeless-rigid-bar-good-idea-bad-787471/page5/


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## Hondo

Ha ha. I was just skimming over some of my posts and noticed I talked about a new 2 hour/day job and then posted a video of helicopter roundup saying I lost my job to technology.

The two posts have no connection. My roundup days, which I did as a volunteer, ended about two years ago when the helicopter started.

I still have my 2 hour/day job and am loving it. Will start milking three cows soon once per day but have been spending my time taming and gentling the cows and what I have learned about horse training, but never actually used, has paid off big time with the cows. One was a problem cow that no one could handle. Bella now follows me every where I go. I can handle her all over, pet her, whatever. She reminds me of Dragon. Just won't leave me alone. But I have not handled her feet........yet. They are terrible as are the other two. Yes, I now have a book on trimming cattle feet and have several youtube videos under my belt.

So I'm still working. Seven days a week. And they say, "thank you for coming". Everyone is really really great.


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## Hondo

Outside saying goodnight to Hondo and thanking him again for the ride, and also thinking about the saddle with the tubes. The surface if the tubes that would actually contact the horse, if there were only tubes, would be quite small with the area in between supporting no weight at all.

But the tubes are inserted into foam, so that foam would carry 'some' weight. But the major part of the weight, I would think, would still be carried by a rather small total area.

The proof of the pudding, as always, will eventually be in the tasting.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> If I let him I think he would have trotted half the trip. He trotted downhill, he trotted up hill. Steep hill.


This sounds like a comfortable horse!


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> This sounds like a comfortable horse!


If he's comfortable with 180 pounds bouncing around on his poor back, the saddle must indeed be very good! 

I'm going to have to shorten my leathers one notch so I can get off his back sooner/easier.


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## whisperbaby22

The stonewall looks interesting, but I like your idea better. I still think that the way you ride is more important than the saddle.


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## Hondo

whisperbaby22 said:


> The stonewall looks interesting, but I like your idea better. I still think that the way you ride is more important than the saddle.


I agree that the way one rides is hugely important but not certain I'd rate either over the other.Buy yeah, I agree with what you are saying. I think of my two daughters that were born a little over one year apart.

At one point they were about the same weight, but one felt almost as light as a feather and the other felt as heavy as a sack of potatoes. Every one that carried them noticed that difference.

I think about that sometimes when I ride Hondo but have no idea if I'm light or heavy.


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## Hondo

Got an update on my treeless saddle with the custom fit rigid bar attached.

It's no longer attached.

I have spent a lot of time metal wrestling how to affix the bars permanently with the conclusion that I'd need a saddle repair person to remove the bottom of the saddle, sew on the velcro in a more permanent fashion than my sparse stitching, and then re-install/sew the bottom of the saddle to the top.

But then the notion slowly creeped through my skull and into my resistant grey matter with the thought, "Why not a treeless saddle pad with the custom fit bar??"

So that's what I've done. And with it, any treeless saddle can be placed over it with no worry whether it's too thin, or the foam is too soft or too old.

It should even make a good bareback pad except there is a 4.5 inch gap down the middle that'd need to be bridged with something.

I think the rigid fitted bar concept "should" allow a closer contact than current setups while doing a treed saddle job of weight distribution.

I ordered a western Supracor off eBay today for around 50% off. The plan is to sew up some pockets and sew them to the Supracor pad and then cut out the middle area between the pockets that the custom bars will fit into. And the Supracor pad never looses it's thickness so with the 1/4" bar there is 1 full inch of air under what ever is over it.

With a custom set of bars for another horse, all that would have to be done would be to switch bars on the pad and done!

And of course the same concept would hold with any pad, not just the Supracor.

Going back, that full inch of clearance would only be on the flatter areas of the back, the saddle above would need extra clearance for the withers.

This will definitely be continued.


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## whisperbaby22

Good, because I need photos to see what you are doing.


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## Hondo

This page shows where the bars have been attached to the bottom of the saddle and the pad used with the saddle. The bars are now inside that same pad. They are stitched in place so can't be photographed without taking stuff apart.

I should have taken photos during the placement of the bars. Sometimes I automatically assume people can see all the images I have in my head.

Pictures at the bottom of the link.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/treeless-rigid-bar-good-idea-bad-787471/page4/


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## Hondo

The plan for today includes saddling up Hondo and tying Rimmey's lead to the saddle with something breakable at about 100 pounds and try leading Hondo around the field with Rimmey in tow.

When Hondo and I go out, the ride invariable involves a bit of exploratory bushwhacking where it is more convienient for me to be afoot and leading Hondo. Since the plan is for Rimmey to eventually begin accompanying Hondo and I on most rides, he'll need to be good at walking along behind Hondo while tied to him.

The plan is for Rimmey to someday carry 100 pounds of water in order to extend the comfortable range that can be ridden. I know horses can go all day without water if required, and so can I. But I'd rather not and I expect the horse feels the same.

This is something I've been thinking about and working towards for quite a while now. The trooper saddle fits Rimmey perfectly as his back is the mirror image of Hondo's and will be converted to a custom fit pack saddle for Rimmey.

Us retired people gotta stay busy and motivated!


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## whisperbaby22

Sounds like a good plan.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> The plan is for Rimmey to someday carry 100 pounds of water in order to extend the comfortable range that can be ridden. I know horses can go all day without water if required, and so can I. But I'd rather not and I expect the horse feels the same.


While I think this is a very good plan, part of me suspects that neither horse is going to actually drink the water you took such pains to haul. Rather like my mare would turn up her nose at a lovely clear-running creek and instead drink out of a disgusting green mud puddle. :icon_rolleyes:

At least you won't be thirsty! 

I hope teaching Rimmey how to pony goes without incident.


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## Hondo

The trial went superbly! I'd have been hard pressed to hope for better. Led them both out of the pen over to the shade of a tree and then tied Rimmey's lead to the back of Hondo's saddle with a 1/2 strength bailing twine. Started off leading Hondo and when the slack came out of Rimmey's lead, he said "Oh" and walked right along as if I were ponying him.

We went only a short circle in the adjacent 5 acre field and everything went so perfect I decided to end early on a positive note. Rimmey looked as if he'd been doing this all his life and it was all he knew.

@phantomhorse13 About the water. Been riding Hondo regularly for 4 years now and know him pretty well. He would need to be near death to drink from a muddy hole. If it's a clear pool and there are bees all over it, he will need to be 1/2 way to near death. I have taken a collapsible bucket to dip where there are wasps or bees and he gratefully drinks.

I carry water for the dog in a backpack and have used the bottom of a milk jug to pour a bit in. Hondo is always glad to take any left overs.

Once I and my tormentor.......errr ranch trainer were on a extended long ride and were resting way up on top. I pulled out a 1 liter jug of water and was drinking. Hondo was watching. I took off my hat and poured the rest of the water into the hat commenting, "I always wanted to do this". Hondo lapped it up and left slobber stains all over my hat. The hat is now gone but I wish I'd have saved it.

So that's Hondo. I've packed 11 loads of salt with Rimmey but there were always familiar creeks for him to drink out of, so can't say about him. My trainer was actually riding Rimmey when I gave the water to Hondo in my hat, but Rimmey didn't get any. My trainer didn't believe in coddling a horse as I do.

Here's a picture from 2014 with Hondo and Rimmey. Hondo is playing with my hat. I decided he was wanting some water and he got it. He was not mine at that time. And another from the same day.

Ya gotta remember, I'm in Arizona where water is scarce and people can die. Horses too.


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## phantomhorse13

yikes.. offering a horse water is seen as 'coddling' it?!


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## Hondo

Well, if there was a creek or whatever it's ok and not coddling I reckon, but with your hat I got the "feeling" it was considered so. I only have one picture on my wall and it is of a rider giving his horse the last drop out of his hat. Got the picture a couple of years after so it didn't influence me. It was probably all those western movies of my youth.

When Rimmey's feet get ok I'll post a picture of Rimmey and Hondo drinking water that Rimmey brought along.


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## Hondo

Actually, after rethinking, my comment about my trainer not believing horses should be coddled was a disservice. I was taught to dismount and tighten the cinch prior to going down or up a steep hill and then to dismount and loosen it when the terrain leveled out.

To many riders, that would be seen as coddling. I saw it as a little extra effort for being kind to the horse. But I still felt I was frowned upon for gleefully watching Hondo slurp out of my hat. But on the other hand, I never saw a stream or water hole passed without the horse being offered a chance to drink. But not out of a hat!


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## gottatrot

Great pics! Glad to hear the trial went so well with Rimmey.

My Arabs seemed to think they needed less water than other horses. I would rarely get them to drink on any ride less than 25 miles. Amore did develop a taste for certain puddles at the top of the mountain trails where we used to board. They were shallow, murky and often had salamanders swimming in them. I was trying to practice getting her to drink so stopped once to see if she would. After that we could not ride by those puddles without her screeching to a halt and diving down to take a drink. Sometimes the salamanders would start swimming and spook her. Even if we only went on a half mile further she'd still want to stop and drink again on the way back. 

Nala loves water and dunks her head all the way under in a trough and then sloshes half of it out. She likes the hose too. I wonder if she'd still do that if she lived where water was scarce.


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## Hondo

Went hiking yesterday searching for an existing trail on the other side of a canyon where a previous attempt had failed a few month ago. But I just knew there had to be an old trail around there somewhere. It is part of my ongoing Minnihaha Creek Trail project.

Finding and resurrecting old abandoned trails is one of my passions for almost forever it seems.

Eureka! There is an old trail that will complete a loop around existing private property. The trail will provide a hearty fall and winter project. Anyone is welcome to come enjoy the frivolities. Took a few pictures that are fairly representative of entire trail which has sections that clearly indicate man made improvements many years in the past.


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## AnitaAnne

phantomhorse13 said:


> yikes.. offering a horse water is seen as 'coddling' it?!


Shocking idea!


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## whisperbaby22

Wow that looks like a fun project. Enjoy it - living here in the city I have helped with cleanups, but homeless areas are not cleaned out regularly. They just kind of molder in there, sad to see.


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## Zexious

That sounds like a really cool project, Hondo! Keep us updated on your progress.


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> Shocking idea!


RE: yikes.. offering a horse water is seen as 'coddling' it?!

Actually, the discussion was not about just offering a horse a drink of water, but rather pouring the last of your own drinking water into your hat and offering it to the horse. On a hot day.

Sooooooo, how many viewers have "coddled" their horse in this way?

Might even be an interesting poll to present to the forum in general?


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> Actually, the discussion was not about just offering a horse a drink of water, but rather pouring the last of your own drinking water into your hat and offering it to the horse. On a hot day.
> 
> Sooooooo, how many viewers have "coddled" their horse in this way?


In the past, I have poured it into my hand and offered it to a horse (my helmet has vents, so pouring it into that wouldn't help anybody).

Now I generally ride with elytes in my personal water, so not sure the horses would drink it even if I offered..


I love your trail project.. can't wait to see updates.


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> In the past, I have poured it into my hand and offered it to a horse (my helmet has vents, so pouring it into that wouldn't help anybody).


Your horse works very hard and needs water! When there is no other water available, you need some means to share your's beyond a few drops from the palm of your hand which is not enough to do more than dampen the tip of his poor parched tongue.

May I suggest a backpacking wash basin which stuffs into it's own tiny stuff sack, 

https://www.amazon.com/Outdoor-Camping-Hiking-Unfolding-Bucket/dp/B00LSE3UT0

or perhaps a helmet rain cover which could be placed inside when using it as a utensil.

https://www.vtosaddlery.com/product...CN1z-v8g5bz7B5KE12B-MokaPv9gYhPxoCLk4QAvD_BwE


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> May I suggest a backpacking wash basin which stuffs into it's own tiny stuff sack,
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Outdoor-Camping-Hiking-Unfolding-Bucket/dp/B00LSE3UT0


We actually have what we call collapsible buckets, which snap onto the saddle, for rides where they prefer dunking to sponging. Its very, very rare for me to ride where there is no natural water available, so having to carry water for the horse isn't something I generally need to worry about. Around here, I can plan my training routes to make sure to include water stops. At competitions, there is either natural water available or management puts out tanks every so many miles. The time I mentioned having to use my hand was at a ride where some jerk had sabotaged several sets of water tanks, leaving the horses with nothing (special place in h#ll for people like that!!).


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> Its very, very rare for me to ride where there is no natural water available


Natural water can be a very very rare occurrence in Arizona. I also have a collapsible bucket but the little basins stuff into a bag no larger than my hand and weigh nothing. I have two of those. Pretty handy to have along sometimes. Particularly with a horse that refuses to drink when there are yellow jackets or bees drinking at the waters edge. All the other horses I've been around ignore them, but not Hondo! If you were around Hondo and I, you might also begin to make comments about me "coddling" him. Which I would happily confess to!


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> Particularly with a horse that refuses to drink when there are yellow jackets or bees drinking at the waters edge. All the other horses I've been around ignore them, but not Hondo!


Jeez, I wouldn't be so happy about having to drink beside yellow jackets either!! And don't you have africanized bees there? Would certianly do my best to avoid those as well..

Worst thing in the water I generally deal with would be frogs. And even if they startle the horses by moving, at least they don't sting!


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## Hondo

No africanized bees but we have some really aggressive yellow jackets. Once one decides to get after you, the only choice is to get away as fast as possible. And what ever you do, don't swat at them or try to drive them away with a hat or what ever. That just seems to infuriate them.

I don't know what the deal is, but I've seen a lot of horses drink with their lips within inches of various kinds of bees and wasps. But MY HONDO will have nothing to do with that. When I dip water and set it aside for Hondo I often recieve various expressions, rolling eyes, and wagging heads while Hondo happily sips away.


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## bsms

Further south in Arizona, one does get Africanized bees. 

I've tried pouring water from my canteen into my cowboy hat. Mia looked at me as if to say, "_You want me to drink water out of a sweaty cowboy hat? Eewwwwww YUCK!_" I doubt Bandit would be so picky, but I've never tried it with him. Most of my rides are limited by the lack of water to 90 minutes. 2 hours tops unless it is winter.


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## Hondo

The one time Hondo drank out of my hat we were 3-4 hours out and on top of a gnarly mountain with a gnarly climb. That may have been the difference.


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## Hondo

Here's a Mapsource screenshot of the trail I found pictured above. The trail is in green and is 0.7 miles long. The purple and blue trails above the green are for the most part done but need a little more work here and there.

Hondo and I have hiked from the end of the blue down to the top of the green but followed a promising trail to the right going down that turned into a very harrowing descent. Not something I'd ride and not something I'd even lead Hondo down if I had not gotten us into a predicament. But we made it.

So now I have to go back and scout out a better connection between the green and blue trail. That should consist mostly of stomping cat's claw bushes to the left or right while cutting a few as last resort.

We have made at least a dozen trips up the purple trail getting farther and farther and finally two trips through the blue.

The red trail was done the end of March first of April. I named it the Beer Stop Trail. The 100 mile RT from Wickenburg and back always has a beer stop prior to arriving at the ranch. Some of the older riders that have made many many rides over the years ride only the first short day out, then from the ranch destination ride out to the beer stop and come on in with the 200+ riders.

So I laid out the red trail for that purpose. The older guys really really liked the trail. So do I. Hondo can go barefoot on that trail. One guy slipped a folded bill into my hand and when I started to look at it he said don't look at it just stick it in your pocket. I said I didn't make the trail for that reason. He said I know that. It was a $100 bill. I didn't look till later.

There are more trails on the area of the screenshot. I've got tons and tons of trails from here to Wickenburg and also to Prescott. More than I'll ever be able to ride on a horse. But I've done them all in the past on a motorcycle. In my next life it will be on a horse.


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## gottatrot

Exploring new trails is great fun, even if making them can be a lot of work.

At our last boarding barn, I worked on connecting several trails together. One part was through a property owned by my friend. She'd had the land cleared so she could eventually put a house on it. There was tons of debris after the loggers were finished, but I was able to move a lot of it and find a way through the swampy parts. I had to use markers because if you got off the trail on your horse, you'd end up in the swamp or knee deep debris. 

That connected the main road to an old grass-covered logging trail, which was easy to clear well enough to ride on. When that ran out, I was able to connect an elk trail that crossed a ravine and get back to the main logging road on the other side, which went all the way back to the barn in a big loop. The whole loop was probably about 5 miles. 

Anyway, I thought it was great but the first time I took Amore through the middle of the ravine I wasn't sure if it was too steep, so I got off and led her. Sure enough, at the bottom she did a somersault through the lowest part. There was lots of swamp grass down there and it was a soft roll, didn't bother her a bit and she came up on her feet. I made a slightly modified route that zig-zagged a bit down that part, and then it felt fine to me. When I showed some other riders my trail, they thought it was very hairy and adventurous. My Arabs got very used to it. 

I've only seen maybe a couple other horses do a somersault, but I've seen Amore do them a number of times...??!!


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## AnitaAnne

@Hondo Trails look great! Nice of the gentleman to give you a little bonus 
@gottatrot have never seen a horse do a somersault in person and really hope I never do! That does not sound very fun especially if one is on the rolling horse :frown_color:


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## gottatrot

AnitaAnne said:


> @gottatrot have never seen a horse do a somersault in person and really hope I never do! That does not sound very fun especially if one is on the rolling horse :frown_color:


Well, I read on some forum (I don't think it was this one) about a person who had a back that bothered her. Her horse went down and rolled over the top of her, she said she thought she might die and heard a dozen loud cracks from her spine. She got up, discovered she felt absolutely fine and after that never had any more back problems. Wouldn't recommend trying it!!


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## Hondo

In some ways, I had one of the best rides ever this morning. Hondo didn't express an opinion but indirectly I think he would agree, except that there was a shortage of browse along the way due to the extended dry period.

I, like a lot of people I assume, tend to be driven to always have in mind a way to improve or accomplish something when riding and in other areas of life. Don't know if this is genetic/biological or socially induced. Probably a bit of both I'd expect. And some of it is ok and for certain beneficial. But when I go for a walk with my dog, I often have nothing in mind other than the enjoyment of walking. Same with my kids or friends.

So why must I always be on a training mission or a mission of some kind when I go riding with my horse?

Those were my thoughts when I left this morning to go ride up the short section of the 1 mile connection on Minnihaha that I recon'd recently. I had already led Hondo up it to watch his feet to see how he went. (he laughed at me saying, "hey, I'm a horse")

This morning I was going to video my ascent but then I thought......no......we're just going to check it out. I want to try to just enjoy Hondo.

I have no idea what I could have been doing differently than normal, but Hondo seemed to quickly pick up on the fact that his normal carte blanche had been significantly expanded.

Along with more frequent stops to sniff browse along the way, he expressed a clear desire to take trails we had never been on. I hesitate to do that as often there will be areas where only a bovine can push through, but today I gave him the reins.

It soon became clear that he knew where we were headed and only wanted to go a different way than we normally go. He showed me some really interesting trails that I had not ever even noticed. Some of them did need a little trimming to be more pleasant but they were great. I like to go different ways to get to the same place and it appears that horses do also!

When we got to the short section I had cleared, he marched right on up. When the 1 mile or so is finished it will form a really nice 16 mile loop with highly varied terrain.

Here's a few pictures from the other day when I was walking up it with Hondo.

Hondo's feet are getting really tough, particularly when I allow him to retain sole during dry weather that his foot determines a need for. He hasn't had boots on for some time now. And no ouches either.

























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## whisperbaby22

Oh that looks like fun. Riding as I do in a river bottom I can't go off established trails. But they do change from year to year, one will get overgrown and the vaqueros will make a new trail for me to follow.


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## SueC

Gosh, @*Hondo* ! Are our dogs from the same litter?














This is Jess. I couldn't believe my eyes!


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## AnitaAnne

Twins! Twins half a world apart!!


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## Hondo

@SueC Roman is a rescue thought to be Border Collie/Australian Kelpie Cross. Would like to send off $150 to get his genetics checked but I keep finding a better place for the 150 smackers.

Notice the crossed front legs while laying down. Not always but usually. I think it was @phantomhorse13 ; that posted a picture of her past dog that looked the same and also had the habit of crossing the front legs.

Your dog is close, but I see a waveyness to the ears that Roman doesn't have. One of the guys that make the annual ride to this ranch had a dog that looked more like yours with the wavyness in the ears. Otherwise same markings.

But even with some difference, they both seemed to recognize the similarities in each other and seemed to prefer company/play with each other more than the other half dozen or so dogs around, although they all played together.

Roman is an absolute space cadet in terms of energy. I'm certain he travels at least 5 miles to Hondo and my 1 mile.

Do you know what mix Jess is? And what is his temperament?

Edit: Oh by the way, the guy with the dog at the ranch actually watched him being born at a shelter to a Border Collie. There was no knowledge of who or what the dad was. Same spotted white front lower legs.


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## SueC

Dear @Hondo, Jess is an Australian working line kelpie, with just enough Border Collie for the paint job. She's 6 now; we got her when she was just under a year old, from Donnybrook Farm Dog Rescue. She'd been taken for a drive and dumped in a state forest. The ranger had picked her up. Some people...but I think it was her lucky day really, because look at her life now:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/redmoonsanctuary/albums/72157685279420023

This also tells you lots about her temperament!  Hahaha. Great dog, very clever, hypervigilant, energy as you describe for your dog - typical kelpie. Loves running above everything else. Leaves my horse behind until we've done at least 20 minutes of solid fast trotting and then sprint up a hill flat out; we'll briefly overtake her then, but not for long, and probably only because of all the loops she's run when the horse and I are just walking.

You can see her in relation to the horse here - I took pictures off the horse on a trail ride for the first time this week:

https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page55/#post1970559673

Jess is also completely mad about playing all sorts of games. Her favourite this past year has been a party balloon hung by a cotton string off a ceiling fan in our living area. She bumps it around with her nose to make it fly up and then wants other people to bump it around too so she can jump in and bump it again mid-air. Like a team game. I'll have to take some pictures. I've never come across a dog quite like this before! Endearingly crazy. Chases all the waves at the beach too! :rofl:

I'll tell her she has a secret brothercalled Roman in America!


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## Hondo

Poor Jess! Must be abused! That much fun can't be good! 

Those photos bring out the very very close similarities between the two. Little white tip on the tail and all. I'll have to get some more photo of Roman. Have to be quick as he's not about standing still and posing for pictures. 

"Endearingly crazy." is an apt description of Roman. "Well? What? What!? We gonna play or what? What?" He can be totally bizarre on the cool mornings. Mid air 360's etc.

I had been looking for a Border Kelpie for a couple of years. Quite a dog. Great dog.

He and his sister were picked up by a couple of equestrians on a trail after having been apparently dumped also.

He was only about 6 months when I got him and if I so much as picked up a broom or shovel or anything with a long handle he would run sideways with fear in his poor little eyes. We went to work on that right away. He's all good now. I can act like I'm gonna hit him and he's all about playing as he knows I am.


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## SueC

Well, I'm glad your Roman had a nice soft landing at your place! :happydance:

They're so fabulous, and so inventive. Jess has a habit of using the backrest of her dog sofa to lean her actual back up against, and then she looks all upright and super-serious. :rofl:

Jess too must have had some bad experiences. The obvious one is that she used to stress out when getting back to the car when we first took her on walks away from the farm, and stand close to her entry hatch (she has the back section of the car, behind the back seats) with this imploring and nervous look on her face. Poor thing. I'd let her up and sit on the back lip of the hatch and talk to her and fuss over her, for months after we got her. She learnt soon that we were never, ever going to leave her behind.

She hates the fly swatter and always ends up asking to go in the garden when I use it. Even when I am using it in another room. I've shown her the swatter - safely on the ground - and tried to make a game of it with the flies (since she stalks bees as a hobby), but although she's not panicked about it anymore, I'm still letting her out if there's more than one fly to squash.

And she's funny if I get annoyed about something, like a politician on TV, and get on my soapbox. She'll come creeping up to me and lean against me and look up in my face. :rofl:

She has learnt so much vocabulary that we have to spell some things like w-a-l-k to each other so as to not make her unduly excited hours beforehand. Or c-h-e-e-s-e. 

Jess' motto now is: _I am a jealous dog. You shall have no other dogs, or other animals, before me._

Fabulous critters!


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## gottatrot

Beautiful and happy, lucky dogs. 

I bet they'd like to see each other. My Dalmatian I used to have liked to see other dogs, but on the rare occasion he saw another Dalmatian he went crazy.


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## SueC

Just watched the Minnihaha trail clip from p2 - gosh, that's rocky, no wonder you've got Renegades on Hondo! :cowboy:


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## Hondo

@SueC Roman had extreme separation anxiety at first. On walks he could not be out of sight for more than a few seconds before he came to see if I was really still there. He's better now but still, where I go, he mast go also, or at least know where I am.

@gottatrot I was thinking about Roman recognizing another similar dog as you dog did also. That seems awfully close to self awareness it would seem.


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## AnitaAnne

Hondo said:


> @
> 
> [MENTION=20613]gottatrot I was thinking about Roman recognizing another similar dog as you dog did also. That seems awfully close to self awareness it would seem.


I have seen this phenomenon over and over through the years with dogs, and believe it happens with horses too. My black lab would get so excited on seeing another black lab (even in different states so no relation) he would be a maniac at the end of the leash, where normally I didn't even have to use a leash he was so well trained. 

Have seen horses react similarly, but not necessarily with the same color horse, but with horse that was the same color as their friend or even the same as their dam. It really makes me wonder and doubt the scientific studies that claim animals are color blind...


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## phantomhorse13

wow did reading this give me a pang this morning.. i still so miss my Shelby.

@*SueC* : your Jess is lovely. but this in particular brought tears to my eyes:










Because I have a very similar pic of my girl showing her displeasure with having to share with the camping equipment:










they are never with us long enough..


please give Jess and Roman big hugs for me.


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## SueC

Here's a thought: Maybe they recognise the image of their mother and perhaps their litter-mates?

My dog looooooves any other kelpie (as long as they are fine that _she_ is the boss). Long-haired Border Collies? Nope. Squashed-face dogs? Grrrrr! (I think she got bitten by one once.) Labradors etc - if they are bigger, she generally plays ball. Likes greyhounds. And wants to _eat_ small breeds - she treats them the same as foxes at home - I don't think she recognises them as canine, as she is a farm dog and probably didn't see any as a young dog. In town, I have to make her sit and hold her snout shut while she growls and blows rude bubbles out the side of her lips, to let little dogs pass without her baying like The Hound of Baskerville. And the owners usually get deflected from apprehension and laugh when I remonstrate with her, "It _really is_ a doggie. Speak nicely now! No swearing!" :rofl: She is getting better with this, but I don't think will ever see them as real dogs.

PS @*phantomhorse13* : Wasn't Shelby lovely! I'm sorry you lost her. :hug: I can't believe Jess is already nearly halfway through maximum life span at 6. It goes too fast. It will be very hard to lose her. But I'll make it count while I have her. And will give her a big hug from you even though she smells ATM because of bits of road kill she was dragging around with delight.


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## phantomhorse13

SueC said:


> I can't believe Jess is already nearly halfway through maximum life span at 6. It goes too fast.



Shelby made it to 16.. I hope the same long life for Jess and Roman (and everyone else's pets).


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## SueC

(I just added something above after you "liked" it, @phantomhorse13!) ;-)


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## Hondo

@gottatrot Was thinking about you saying you had a Dalmatian. A friend of mine had one also. On the same level as Roman for crazy energy.

@SueC I've actually been riding Hondo barefoot without an ouch or wince on that section of the Minnihaha Trail. He has a ton of retained sole in the protracted dry spell we're having and is doing pretty well in those types of rocky trails. He is pretty adept at stepping between the rocks.

But for the last three rides, including today, I have had his Vipers on. In the spirit of "Perambulation", I've been letting him choose the route we take more frequently and I've been surprised at some of his choices with the boots on. He will go strolling through a rock field that I would not have even asked him to go through. Much if it is just cross country. But some if it is a faint shadow of an existing trail that I could not even recognize as a trail until he chose it. I'm learning a lot from sharing the decision making even though I've never micro managed his feet. As in, "I love my horse Hondo, He gives me his best, I point where his nose goes, He fills in the rest." 2nd two line courtesy of @gottatrot -to the tune of On Top Of Old Smokey.

Here's couple more old vids


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## gottatrot

Those are amazing and rugged trails.
My mares used to kick rocks on purpose when they had their boots on. Amore in particular would kick a rock, purposefully, then spook as it skittered away.



Hondo said:


> @gottatrot Was thinking about you saying you had a Dalmatian. A friend of mine had one also. On the same level as Roman for crazy energy.


Dalmatians are super energetic. Not a dog for everyone. I used to run 3 miles with my Bucky every day when he was young, and if I ever missed a day he'd go destroy something in my sister's room. She would get so mad at me. He never touched my stuff, including my rodents (guinea pigs), but if he saw a rodent outside he'd kill it instantly. I had him from when I was about 15 until 30. 

Great dog. We'd swim together, I'd have him pull me on roller blades, we'd run and go to the beach. He loved horses and the first time he saw one he shook all over with excitement. Then he licked its legs. Dalmatians were bred to run with and guard carriages, and they seem to have an affinity with horses.


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## Hondo

@gottatrotHondo kicks rocks with his boots also, but accidentally and then stumbles a bit.

You mentioned the boots accumulating sand on the beach and shoving the boots forward a bit in a past post. This happens with Hondo as there are stretches of sand along with the rocky areas. I'm thinking the longer than normal toe causes the stumbles.

I have one pair of boots that has a longer toe than other boots. At first I was always catching my toe. Now that I've worn them a lot it seems my body has figured out where my foot is and it's no longer a problem.

I'm planning to try some very soft foam in the toe that will easily squish to nothing but expand to a void to keep the sand out of the toe. I'm thinking the boot is always moving around a little and any time there is a void the sand under his solar moves right into that space. One of my internet projects for today is to search for "sand in renegade boots" to see what if anything others are saying.

Sounds like you had a life with Bucky that movies are made about!

Roman has done some serious damage to the drivers side of my old pickup. I now tie him to the passenger side if he is acting too excited and I have to leave him. Love going to TSC as I can bring him with me.

He eats pellets and drinks water with Hondo. He tries to play with Hondo which is mostly tolerated unless he gets too insistent. Hondo will then "nose him away" with a "beat it kid". They are pretty good together.

The video titled Rocky Arizona Horse Trail is one that is frequently used by the annual ride to the ranch by about 300 horses. Since I've been here they have used it once uphill on the way out and once downhill on the way in. It's a pretty long trail. And there are others just an rocky and worse.

I've ridden just about everything on the ranch and am now venturing out into the BLM and USNF. The riding there is actually better as there is less thorns.

I've yet to encounter another rider on any of the trails I ride in the 4+ years I've been here.

Arizona though, is known for it's rocks.


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## whisperbaby22

I've used diabetic socks cut and pulled over the boot to keep sand out. It won't keep it all out, but only a smaller amount of finer sand will get in the boot.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ...As in, "I love my horse Hondo, He gives me his best, I point where his nose goes, He fills in the rest." 2nd two line courtesy of gottatrot -to the tune of On Top Of Old Smokey...


 Thanks for the laugh. But like a lot of good humor, it is rooted in reality!

When I read people discussing controlling their horse, I realize how limited my riding world is. I'll sometimes direct rein, fast and even hard, for the nasty little cactus with long spines that hides almost invisible in some places. By the time I see it, we're often within a foot or two. Not sure I want to find out how Bandit would respond to stepping on it. The spines MIGHT not penetrate his foot...but I'd rather not find out!

Still, someone interested in going across terrain on a horse has a different perspective on riding from a huge part of the riding world. What works for me & my horse may have no relevance at all to them, nor their approach to me. MY riding is more like the guy in the 1880s - from Tombstone IIRC - who said riding in this country required a person learn patience and squinting. Patience, because you'll kill your pony if you try to hurry him up. And squinting, because you can see generally where you are headed from 50 miles away. But you'll be a long time getting there, so squint against the sunlight and wait for your pony to pick his path. You may be looking at your destination for 2 days before you get there...:icon_rolleyes:

PS: I rely a lot on my horse's "common sense". I find it interesting how many describe a horse as having none. The longer I ride, the more I think horses are very practical. Yes, spooky about things they don't understand - which IS "common sense" for a horse. But once they learn, they are very practical and show more imagination than I used to believe possible!


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## Hondo

@whisperbaby22 Thanks! That sounds like a better idea than mine. The back of the gaiter on the easycare basically does that. Back of the Renegade is open.

Duh, now why didn't I think of that. Don't know what diabetic socks are but I've got a couple of compression socks from my hematoma a few years ago. I'll try those.

I may have a couple of old easycare gaiters around.......thinking.......

@bsms I think Hondo must have been raised in a lot of prickly stuff. He usually sees it before me, "Hey, look, I can't go this way". He has learned by experience that if there is no other way through, I'll dismount and clear the way. He even looks back at me expectantly. I love my horse as we all do.


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## whisperbaby22

The diabetic socks don't compress, but do stay put. And because they cover the entire top of the boot it works in deep sand. I don't have a horse that wears boots at this time or I'd try to put up a photo. I just cut out the foot part of it and slip it on before the boots. Leave a little of the foot part to see how it works, you can always cut it out later if needed. Always better to cut out to little than to much.


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## Hondo

Ok. Just read wiki's description of diabetic socks. Exact opposite of the compression socks popular for blood clots in the lower leg. Oh man! They really felt good for that.

I was thinking socks on top and puzzling a bit. So they go on first and apparently squish from the weight of the horse but in the void areas stay fluffed out enough to block the sand.

I think I have a pair of heavy wool socks with the feet worn that I could try. That is sounding pretty good. Next trip to town I'll check out some sure enough diabetic socks.

Tried everything Googling but came up flat. Maybe this should become it's own topic so it'll show up on Google at some point.

Sort of the same concept I had with the light foam but much handier. Thanks again1


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## gottatrot

We just used regular athletic socks from the dollar store over the hoof inside the boots for the mini horses. The boots were slightly too large, so we used thicker socks if we needed to fill more room. The thinner ones might be easier to put on, but it was not difficult with the minis. You can just fold down the top over the top of the boot.


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## Hondo

I was thinking that it'd be cool if they were large/long enough to fold down. I did find an old pair that I'll try tomorrow if they will go on. Not sure as Hondo has these large Morgan feet.

I'm surprised my internet search didn't turn up anything. No problem, HF did.

On a side note: I rode the Barefoot yesterday with the seat removed. Put an Airhawk2 cushion on the base with a minimal amount of air, just enough to fill in the missing cantle space and about 1/4" under my seatbones.

It made the saddle 1" or more more narrow. Felt great! And I was sitting at least 3/4" deeper. I could tell I was much closer contact. I liked it so well that I decided to get a piece of leather to cover up all the stuff so it would not look so cobbled up.

Then I thought, "I'm not gonna use that seat. I don't like it. So there's my leather." Today I removed all the padding except right at the top of the cantle and the very front where it connects to the saddle. Lots of glue and threads to remove but I "gotterdone".

I also sewed Velcro to the back of the Airhawk cover so it would stay in place better. I've used that Airhawk2 for many miles on a motorcycle and really like it. And I've done a few miles on Hondo before this for comfort to a, uh, riding injury.


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## SueC

Maybe you could knit something for your horse, @*Hondo* ! 

Your climate is so much better for horse feet than ours. I looked with admiration at the underside of Bandit's hoof as posted on @*bsms* 's journal recently. Real mustang feet. Here, the horses are on green pasture at least 7 months of the year, and it's winter wet, and in autumn and spring, often gets wet with dew at night, and this softens the horse feet and means I have to use Stockholm tar to prevent the horn from rotting at those times. So it's boots for protection at those times, unless riding on sandy soils in the valley floor.

Funny quote on patience and squinting, @*bsms* !  And I've been thinking a long time, and collecting lots of evidence, that a horse's common sense is so much greater when they are raised in natural type environments with herds, instead of isolated in stables and yards and from each other and the greater world. The horses from artificial, isolated situations basically need remedial social and environmental training, and time in social groups and natural environments to develop this. It's a funny thing - the people who complain about the lack of sense in their horses generally are the ones who keep their horses in the more unnatural and isolated state which hinders this development.

This reminds me of an old joke about someone watching a man on a train put sugar on his peeled bananas and then throwing them out of the window. When questioned, the man said, "I don't like sugary bananas!" ;-)

@*gottatrot* , I rode with someone with a Dalmatian once, and it actually kept up and had the most joyous expression on its face!  Got any pics? Pulling you on roller blades, that sounds like fun. My dog skijours me on my mountain bike when I visit the neighbour. I have a long rope that I run off her collar and then under her leg so she doesn't choke on the lead, and she wasn't obliged to do any pulling, she could have just run along next to the bike, on a leash because on a public road and she has zero traffic sense because she wants to herd cars, but once she discovered she could pull and it made the bike go faster, I think I've broken some personal bicycle speed records! :rofl:

Great boot tips, all! Very best wishes! :wave:


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## whisperbaby22

Common sense can have different meanings. It can mean doing the best with what is available. I, too, have been collecting evidence of the advantages of keeping horses like we do here in the southwest US. I've thought of writing an article about our advantages but I think I'll just keep it to myself. I get a mostly negative response when I write some of my radical views.


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## SueC

I'm sure you can tell us, @*whisperbaby22* ; non-mainstream ideas are welcome with this bunch of people!  Good point on commonsense. I'm trying to think of a word that expresses it better, but currently have a big blank in my brain's language department. Anyway, it's people that complain of horses not being sensible, being spooky, blah blah, and these horses lack meaningful exposure to the environment and to normal group social life. Keeping horses locked into stables instead of letting them roam results in all sorts of lifestyle diseases for the horse too. And don't get me started on industrial feeds - reminds me of the breakfast cereals aisle in the supermarket! ;-) We eat good old porridge at our house, or home-made muesli, and the horses' hard feeds I mix myself. Real Luddite, me! ;-)


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## AnitaAnne

@Hondo what abut using some foam pieces? Can find foam pieces in the craft department of many stores. 

I used pads in my old horse Dreamer boots to take up some of the space. He had to keep them on for the 5 weeks between shoeing for several months until his hoofs grew out and it worked great. He had really soft white hooves and the pond was turning them into mush. 

Your saddle continues to get more interesting  

I have the sheepskin seat on my Barefoot and like it much better than the leather one!


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## whisperbaby22

I have to disagree with you about generalizing about horses that "lack etc." I think that horses can "not be sensible" in any environment, and it has more to do with how they are handled.


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## Hondo

@SueC Perhaps you would knit something for Hondo for Christmas which happens to be the celebration of both our birthdays. I know he would be delighted with anything you would send, as would I . :loveshower:

@whisperbaby22 Well shoot, we can learn from negative responses just as well a from positive responses. Maybe ever more sometimes. If I were stalled by negative responses I might not ever get anything done!

That said, I hear what you're saying.

This morning I decided to try a strip of stick on adhesive foam across the mid section of the boot. It did help but some snuck in through the sulcus I believe. Thought about sticking a piece of foam down the sulcus but then realized the sock would close the sulcus up completely along with the area between the bulbs. Not sure what that's called or if it has a name.

Hondo definitely did not stumble as much today. I'll try the sock for certain on the next ride which will probably be tomorrow.




...................................................................................................................................................


I am extremely happy with the modifications to the Barefoot saddle. It felt as deep, nestled, and secure as my Trooper saddle. And with the air pillow, the pressure on my seatbones is evenly distributed over my glutes and thighs. Very nice!

Here's what the Airhawk2 looks like. Apparently that particular model is not made anymore as it's not listed on the Airhawk site. But one just like it is called an Airhawk Pillion. They offer on any of their models to try it for 60 days and if it does not double the ride time to return it for a full refund. (that's on motorcycles not horses)

Anyhow, mine is the same size as the pillion, 11x9.

View attachment 963253


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## whisperbaby22

Glad the saddle is working out. I'm kind of bony, and now use cashel stuff or I couldn't ride!


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## bsms

whisperbaby22 said:


> I have to disagree with you about generalizing about horses that "lack etc." I think that horses can "not be sensible" in any environment, and it has more to do with how they are handled.


I think it involves teaching (or at least exposing) the horse to a given environment. For example, Bandit grew up in VERY open country. It took a LONG time for him to get sensible about walking down a narrow wash, and he still stresses out when walking thru a human environment. If I took Bandit down this road today, he'd be stressed and not entirely sensible:







However, suppose he was allowed to roam thru the entire neighborhood with a herd of horses, at will. I think he would soon become VERY sensible about air conditioners turning on, people cutting metal pipe in their garage, cars, bicycles.

If I took him along one of Oregon's beaches, he would stress terribly. The first time. But he would learn, if I would let him.

That is why I like how my rancher friend raises his horses, and why I could see them having issues if they start buying horses from anywhere. Right now, the foals accompany their dams for the first couple of years, largely hanging out with them as the dams work the sheep. But the time they are broken to ride, they know all about deserts, climbing slopes, heavy timber, rivers, highways.

My friend said the worst spook he encountered was on a 4th of July week-end, when two campers suddenly decided to have a boom-box contest. Blaring volume rap music was NOT in the horse's repertoire, and he took of running. To make matters worse, the Border Collie spooked as well, and decided constantly running under the horse was a good idea. He said the three of them didn't get stopped for 2 miles...
:runpony:​

However, I find Bandit always stays aware of his surroundings, and TRIES to think about things. I believe his time roaming in a loose herd on the Navajo Nation taught him a type of sensibility that helps. He may need to learn the specifics of a different environment, but he knows HOW to think.

I believe there is data to suggest horses raised in sterile environments don't learn the process of thinking.​


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## AnitaAnne

@ Hondo that is a pillow! Like not a seat at all, a pillow! Must be really comfortable up there :smile:


Are you going to post a picture of your actual saddle?


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## bsms

For any who haven't seen it, there is a good look at equine learning here:

http://www.equineresearch.org/support-files/hanggi-thinkinghorse.pdf


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## Hondo

@AnitaAnne Comfortable? I almost fell off twice from dosing :smile: JK
If it's not clear from the picture, the 12 "lumps" are all interconnected. I guess they just provide air circulation space. In my case they are covered with the leather seat.

The saddle looks no different from the outside except for the missing trim on the upper flap. I just removed the thick cushioning from underneath. Even with the "pillow" it sets a lot lower. Had to drop my stirrups a notch. And sooooo much narrower.

I'm using the rigid bars inserted into a saddle pad at the present but intend to go back to the bars attached to the saddle. When my prototype gets finally finished, (if ever), I'll take it to a sure enough saddle maker and say here, make me one like this.


@bsms Don't know if you've noticed, but there is an ongoing swing in education where children are exposed to all kinds of basically junk to play with as they see fit as apposed to what some would call a sterile classroom environment only.

So as it is with horses, so it is with human children. Or so those who profess to know, say.


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## AnitaAnne

bsms said:


> For any who haven't seen it, there is a good look at equine learning here:
> 
> http://www.equineresearch.org/support-files/hanggi-thinkinghorse.pdf


Thanks for the link; certainly backs up my personal experience. Never bought into all that forced respect and personal space garbage many of the gurus seem to preach.


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## bsms

^^^ On my journal, I quoted Gen US Grant:

"A few days out from Corpus Christi, the immense herd of wild horses that ranged at that time between the Nueces and the Rio Grande was seen directly in advance of the head of the column and but a few miles off. It was the very band from which the horse I was riding had been captured but a few weeks before. The column was halted for a rest, and a number of officers, myself among them, rode out two or three miles to the right to see the extent of the herd. 

The country was a rolling prairie, and, from the higher ground, the vision was obstructed only by the earth’s curvature. As far as the eye could reach to our right, the herd extended. To the left, it extended equally. *There was no estimating the number of animals in it; I have no idea that they could all have been corralled in the State of Rhode Island, or Delaware, at one time.* If they had been, they would have been so thick that the pasturage would have given out the first day. People who saw the Southern herd of buffalo, fifteen or twenty years ago, can appreciate the size of the Texas band of wild horses in 1846."

I loved this response, and from a significant other, no less:



SueC said:


> ...That's a fantastic story about that mustang colt! Like like like. Brett was saying about the huge herd in Texas those days, "*I wonder who was lead mare!*"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm about to go give our 3 their nightly dinner. But I'm going to violate what I've been told, and NOT stand guard over the feed bucket until they submit to my authority! 3 meals a day, roughly 1000 meals a year, 10 years - who has the time to stand guard and not let their horses approach until after I leave? Usually, they go to their buckets ahead of me and wait for me to dump their food in. Bandit in particular will go stand there, usually last in line, and wait patiently for me to arrive with HIS share. 

After all, we're pals and he KNOWS I won't forget him! 

Oh...and all my horses have figured out that I don't eat hay. They may not understand it, entirely, but "_That leaves more for us!_"


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## SueC

@bsms, Sunsmart is still convinced that Brett secretly wants his dinner, even though Brett has not shown any inclination towards horse food for the decade plus the horse has known him. :rofl:




AnitaAnne said:


> Thanks for the link; certainly backs up my personal experience. Never bought into all that forced respect and personal space garbage many of the gurus seem to preach.


Me neither! 




Hondo said:


> @*SueC* Perhaps you would knit something for Hondo for Christmas which happens to be the celebration of both our birthdays. I know he would be delighted with anything you would send, as would I .



As it happens, Brett and I have a little something we'd be delighted to send you, but we'd need you to PM me a delivery address! It's not knitted, but we think you'd like it anyway! I'm going to town in the morning and could send it then; better send it early as you never know how long that's going to take. ;-)

Speaking of knitting, one of my _Grass Roots_ friends (Australian DIY community to whose magazine I am a regular contributor) is actually knitting me a multi-coloured beanie for wearing on my soapbox, after she and I both sent in a _Feedback_ letter preaching inclusiveness in response to someone who seemed to think you couldn't be a true _Grass Roots_ person if you didn't live in a yurt. :rofl: I'll post a photo when I get it.


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## AnitaAnne

Apologies @Hondo for small thread hijack

I just dump the food in and go too, except had one horse, my heart horse, who would not let me leave the stall until he was done eating. This only started when I bought gelding #2 and made the error of spending time with #2 instead of devoting all my time to gelding #1. Of course, I have been told that horses can't feel emotions like jealousy, but no-one told him that! 

If I started to leave the stall while he was eating, gelding #1 would start banging his feed bucket back and forth and making a huge racket. If I came back towards him, he stopped...he had me well trained! Don't know why he insisted I stand in his stall with him while he ate, but that's the way he liked it! 


That horse was my $1000 "temporary" 6 month ride while my Dressage mare recovered from an injury. She didn't and he turned out to be quite a successful competitor for a grade 15H long-backed horse. He didn't know he wasn't built or bred for Dressage. He also reared and had no right lead. People told me he was dangerous :lol: That little horse won me more ribbons than any horse before or since. I lost him in the divorce and I miss him every single day :frown_color:


My current gelding is terrified of RED raincoats, but is ok with blue ones...so much for the "animals are color blind" theory.


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## Hondo

@AnitaAnne Hijack away!! Interesting stuff!

The herd of horses in Texas sounded pretty extreme. I wonder how they went about capturing Grant's horse out of it. Funny about the lead mare. She had a pretty big job.

Since I learned that a horse's stomach empties in about 30 minutes and that their gastric acids flow at a continual rate with no let up, unlike ours, I feed my horse and his buddy ad lib or on demand. I keep feed available all the time just like they have when they are on pasture.

That is also the reason I like to let Hondo grab a few bites here and there when riding. Unfortunately there's not much out there at present due to the extended dry spell here. It's beginning to get pretty serious but hopefully the July monsoons will soon deliver much needed rain.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> @*bsms* Don't know if you've noticed, but there is an ongoing swing in education where children are exposed to all kinds of basically junk to play with as they see fit as apposed to what some would call a sterile classroom environment only.


Oh, oh, oh! :happydance:

I've got to show _y'all_ these two links, they are so wonderful!

The first is a Japanese kindergarten, in a hyper-urban environment, but _look_ what they've done!!!!






The Japanese do some really cool stuff, and are a lot more connected to nature as a culture than the average population is in Australia.

This next thing would be forbidden here, but I just love this, and what it does for the kids intellectually and physically, and for their connection to the real world. The Scandinavians also are way ahead of us on many things.






And when you think about it, what did we do? I was in a generation that played outdoors when the weather permitted - at primary school age (6-10) we made mud pies, we rolled in mud, we rode our bicycles, we flew kites, we roller-skated on the sidewalks, we walked for miles, we swam wherever we could, and without adult supervision, we held funerals for dead butterflies (matchboxes with pretty fabric scraps and any of us that played the recorder etc played them a song), we skimmed stones on water surfaces, we put daubs of coloured paint on snails to differentiate them and named them and kept diaries on their activities, we pretended we had horses, on broomsticks and on bicycles riding from ropes hung off the handlebars, and we described our horses to each other (until we could cajole our parents to let us take lessons at the local rural riding school), we hung out at the village dairy and learnt how to milk cows and volunteered to brush them (and the dairy farmers brought us dandy brushes ), when the circus was in town we lined up to help muck out and look after the circus animals, we sledded down snow hills, we climbed trees, we made cubbies, in winter we made igloos, we collected and pressed flowers, we had handstand and headstand and cartwheel competitions, we hung out in libraries in wet weather to get more ideas and to take things home for after dark. We even read the telephone directory to each other and fell about laughing at some of the surnames, and picked some names to make illustrated storybooks about the kinds of lives we imagined they were leading. :rofl: And then we contemplated sending them the stories we'd made up about them, but we didn't quite dare to do it. Just contemplating it had us in stitches, though! 

And yet by the 1990s, the kids I was teaching, especially in urban areas, had these comparatively sterile childhoods, growing up in fenced backyards like rats in cages and being shuffled around to various sporting and cultural activities by their parents in this timetabled manner. Too much TV and technology-based stuff. Unstructured outdoors time and room to roam was something very few of them had. One of my erstwhile primary school friends and classmates (who is in Europe) was telling me her nieces and nephews had a childhood totally unlike what she and I and our friends had, just one generation on, and in the same environment we grew up in as young children.

I'll stop now or I'll write a book. No wonder my GR friend is knitting me a soapbox beanie! 

Anyway, I'm really grateful that I still had that kind of childhood, and I'd pretty much bet all of you did as well, no? What sorts of things did _y'all_ get up to?

Apologies, @*Hondo* , don't mean to kidnap your journal!  So interesting though...


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## Hondo

Yes @SueC, relate to your post totally. I did all those things and also drove a team of horses by 13 pulling a drag, a harrow, a mower, a hay rake, and the wagon my Dad and Grand Dad were piling hay on.

To much of a structured environment seems to suppress the natural curiosity and desire for learning. There is just not enough open space for all the kids to experience those things now. Or at least it seems so.


.........................................................................................................................................................

Tried out socks on Hondo's fronts today. Didn't have enough for the hinds. The loop ridden did not have as much deep sand as has been ridden lately and I was not expecting to get a good test.

When returned, the hinds were pulled first. There was at least 2/3 the normal amount.

When the boots were placed over the socks on the front, one pushed up in front leaving the boot fully in contact with the front of the hoof. But the sock did hang down over the boot somewhat.

On the other side, the sock extended a ways down into the boot. I wondered if that would hold the hoof back a ways leaving a void for sand to fill.

I determined to notice the difference when checking on the return but totally forgot to notice which was which when de-booting.

The first one had gotten wet when we stopped at a water hole along the way. There was a bit of wet sand packed in front of the toe. Less than normal but still a bit. Maybe 3/16".

When the other was pulled off there was no more than a thimble full of sand in there! Practically zero.

I suspect the "good" foot was the one where the front of the hoof was in full contact but will set them up the same on the next test and try real hard to remember.

Here's a pic before we left. And BTW, the socks showed no signs of wear and tear at all. They will serve for many rides.


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## Hondo

Yes @SueC, relate to your post totally. I did all those things and also drove a team of horses by 13 pulling a drag, a harrow, a mower, a hay rake, and the wagon my Dad and Grand Dad were piling hay on.

To much of a structured environment seems to suppress the natural curiosity and desire for learning. There is just not enough open space for all the kids to experience those things now. Or at least it seems so.


.........................................................................................................................................................

Tried out socks on Hondo's fronts today. Didn't have enough for the hinds. The loop ridden did not have as much deep sand as has been ridden lately and I was not expecting to get a good test.

When returned, the hinds were pulled first. There was at least 2/3 the normal amount.

When the boots were placed over the socks on the front, one pushed up in front leaving the boot fully in contact with the front of the hoof. But the sock did hang down over the boot somewhat.

On the other side, the sock extended a ways down into the boot. I wondered if that would hold the hoof back a ways leaving a void for sand to fill.

I determined to notice the difference when checking on the return but totally forgot to notice which was which when de-booting.

The first one had gotten wet when we stopped at a water hole along the way. There was a bit of wet sand packed in front of the toe. Less than normal but still a bit. Maybe 3/16".

When the other was pulled off there was no more than a thimble full of sand in there! Practically zero.

I suspect the "good" foot was the one where the front of the hoof was in full contact but will set them up the same on the next test and try real hard to remember.

Here's a pic before we left. And BTW, the socks showed no signs of wear and tear at all. They will serve for many rides.

View attachment 963295


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## whisperbaby22

When I did it I was using easyboot trails, they have a lot of velcro. The socks I used were a lot longer, I was able to pretty much cover all the velcro and up the leg. I did not ride hard, but the sand was deep. Without the socks I'd get small pebbles in there too. I kept them clean and they would eventually stretch out, but I could get a few months out of them.


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## knightrider

My childhood was similar to yours also. We roamed the woods, building forts, playing cowboys and Indians, squirting each other with squirt guns, sleeping in tents in the back yard, roller skating in the basements. There were about 6 or 8 of us neighborhood kids, of varying ages. At night we played games until it was too dark to see and our mothers called us in. We caught fireflies and kept them in jars on our dressers until the next morning when we'd let them go. 

The craziest thing we did was my dad was a ham radio operator with 3 towers in our 3 acre yard. My brothers built a platform on one of the towers that was 60 feet high. We would all lay on the platform and spit at the person climbing the ladder. Whoever got spit on the least won that one. Good thing my mom was busy and did not pay attention to what we were doing. Of course, we were climbing very VERY fast to avoid getting spat upon.

Another very naughty thing my older brother encouraged my second brother and me to do was to fill up the upstairs bathroom with water about 3 inches deep, take off our shoes and socks and "skate" around in the water. We did that two times--it was SO much fun. I couldn't imagine (I was about 4 at the time) why my oldest brother, who was 10, would think it was OK, but he encouraged us and we did it. Of course, by the second time, the ceiling in the dining room collapsed, along with my mom's much prized chandelier. My parents never did figure out why that ceiling collapsed. Parents didn't bother much with kids in those days as long as we were quiet and did not argue or fuss.


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## gottatrot

Halla and Amore seemed to know I don't eat hay, but they always got angry about cats, dogs or rodents coming near. Somehow those creatures were going to steal their food. 

We did the craziest things when we were kids. When it snowed, someone would always sneak over to a neighbor's steep driveway and turn on the water faucet so there would be ice to sled down in the morning. We had giant swings over ravines, and we'd take rubber rafts and boat around in the rivers. Once I almost drowned trying to take a short cut to meet my friends out on the railroad trestle by swimming across the bay. A storm was coming in, and there were big, choppy waves which made it difficult to keep my head above water. We always jumped off the railroad bridge into the water when it was hot.

Of course we didn't discuss anything with our parents unless we ended up injured. Even then, it was "I fell," not "we were trying to see who could ride their bike the longest without touching the handlebars."


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Yes @*SueC* , relate to your post totally. I did all those things and also drove a team of horses by 13 pulling a drag, a harrow, a mower, a hay rake, and the wagon my Dad and Grand Dad were piling hay on.



Oh wow! _Real_ hay-making!


We have an adopted 80-something family member who comes to Sunday lunch every week, who is like a local history encyclopaedia. I think you might enjoy the story he told me here:


https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page37/#post1970513817


It arose from a discussion on emus, with photos, on the previous page (which also has another member's magnificent draught horse).


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## Hondo

@gottatrat; I'm relieved. I had thought Meka was going senile. Every time the horses come to their pen, she goes to her food and eats as much as she can, growls, and then lies near it to protect it from the horses, even though they have never eaten any. Roman on the other hand eats pellets with Hondo and has no worries about Hondo trying to steal his food.

Riding without hands brought back a memory. Rex, who lived down the road from me about a mile in a town that had a state highway sign proudly proclaiming a population of 82, and I rode bicycles with no hands. Then we decided to squat on the seat while holding the handle bars. That was fun. The seats were wide and and we were soon able to ride squatting with no hands, steering by shifting the weight on our feet. You can guess what came next. We cautiously began to elevate from our squatting position. Soon we were gleefully coasting down our hill standing fully erect. We could make large radius turns but got very adept at dropping to the seat for other negotiations. (like cars approaching highway 12 that we crossed coasting) Never crashed (standing up) once. How I survived childhood and much of my adulthood convinces me someone must be taking care of me.

@SueC RE: how much life has changed in less than one human lifetime.

I was myself thinking about this very thing recently. Along with the things mentioned that our horses were used for, they also pulled a wagon loaded with logs to be cut up for the winter firewood supply. A Gee Pole is a long wooden arm adjacent to the driver that is used to apply the Rub Blocks against the metal rims of the wooden wagon wheels for braking on downhills. 

Once I was riding on the back of the logs and we were going down a pretty steep hill. Dad was standing up leaning heavily on the Gee Pole when it broke and he went overboard yelling jump Sonny jump. Which I did. No one hurt and the horses stopped at the bottom. I think I was 7 or 8.

Horses also pulled a manure spreader for the chicken houses. Now that was a fun job when going downwind.

We barely eked out a living and without the horses I don't see how even that would have been possible.

I remember sitting around in the evening listening to the radio while the butter churn was passed from one to the other as an arm got tired out.

We grew and canned all our food for the winter. All organic of course as we could not afford "store bought" fertilizer.

Sometimes it feels as if I were born 1,000 years ago.


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## Hondo

whisperbaby22 said:


> When I did it I was using easyboot trails, they have a lot of velcro. The socks I used were a lot longer, I was able to pretty much cover all the velcro and up the leg. I did not ride hard, but the sand was deep. Without the socks I'd get small pebbles in there too. I kept them clean and they would eventually stretch out, but I could get a few months out of them.


Ok, that's a whole different deal. The Renegade/Vipers have the entire back of foot exposed. The sand (i think) enters mostly from the back under the foot. The sock spanning that area is appearing to block the sand from entry.

I did figure out that it was the right front hoof that had almost zero sand and that it was the one that had the front of the sock hanging on the outside down over the front of the boot. So I'm thinking some sand must get in from the front also.

Taking a break to catch up on a few things today but next ride will be in longer stretches of deeper sand with all four wearing socks. Fingers crossed but your suggestion just may have solved the sand problem with the Renegades.


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## bsms

Hondo said:


> ... @*SueC* RE: how much life has changed in less than one human lifetime....
> 
> Sometimes it feels as if I were born 1,000 years ago.


My friend who is a rancher used to tell me about one of his grandfathers. As a young man, (around 1900) he worked the mines 25 miles from his home, Mon-Friday. When he came off shift Friday, he walked home. Normally arrived around midnight. He had Saturday and most of Sunday with his family, then walked back to the mines - arriving around midnight.

He eventually saved up enough money to buy a horse. It was a huge improvement in his life. He could keep the horse at the mine during the week, and then ride him home on Friday. The horse covered the 25 miles much faster! He eventually saved up enough money to buy some land and start a small farm, living with his family all the time.

He lived long enough to see man land on the moon. Wasn't entirely sure he believed it was real! Of course, he also eventually bought a car and drove. He'd go down the mostly empty roads in the middle, the grandkids screaming, while he shouted, "_I paid taxes for both sides of the road and I'm going to drive on both sides!_"

People 100 years ago lived much closer to how people lived 1000 years ago than we do to 100 years ago. Wyatt Earp once needed to go from Tucson to Tombstone, but didn't have the money to pay for a stage. So he walked all night and much of the day - 65 miles non-stop. A Roman soldier would understand. Boudica would understand. Me? Don't ask me to hike 20 miles. Nope! No thank you! Not even in my space-age hiking boots!


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## Hondo

@bsms Oh yes, we humans are very adept at becoming spoiled. Me included. And I confess, I LIKE spoiled.


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## bsms

^^ Just finished a 1+ hour ride. Bandit's first on the trail with Renegade boots. He went over the owyyy spots without a flicker. By the end, we trotted across some spots he previously worked hard to avoid. Did a couple of OMG Crouches, almost Mia-level intensity, no problem. Did better in the boots than in iron shoes on those spots. So...I don't think Bandit wants to return to 1880 either! Or even 1980. "_Nothing wrong with these new-fangled contraptions on my feet!_"

Me? Right now, a cold Diet Coke & the AC are feeling MIGHTY good!

Here is a piece of historical trivia: At the start of World War Two, over half the homes in Washington DC used outhouses!

Nope! Nothing wrong with a bit of technology! Not when used in moderation. It is the "_I can't walk 10 feet without my iPhone_" and "_Don't climb a tree, you might fall!_" idjits that give modern living a bad name.

I was glad Bandit felt more comfortable in his modern shoes, but it also felt good to be in the desert, on my horse, who does such a good job of connecting me to nature. I feel more a part of the real world on horseback, like he plugs me in to reality somehow. Even though my saddle is made of a bunch of stuff that didn't exist in 1950!


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> @*bsms* Oh yes, we humans are very adept at becoming spoiled. Me included. And I confess, I LIKE spoiled.


:rofl:

My friend Alice uses the term "high-maintenance" to refer to this. She and her husband Rob were our official wedding witnesses/paper signers at our wedding ten years ago as they had been happily married over 50 years and we thought that was a good omen; plus they are such lovely lovely people. Anyway, they used to have these mock discussions when Alice came back from town, and Rob would say, "What have you gone and bought now, woman?" and she'd say, "Ha, you knew I was high-maintenance when you married me. And I'm saving up all the receipts so I can line your coffin with them and you can take them to the other side." :rofl:

Loved everyone's childhood anecdotes. When I find my TARDIS I want to come over and play! ;-)


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## Hondo

I was raised with an outhouse only. AND, believe it or not, a Sears Roebuck catalog. Recycling was not a modern invention.

I do not have AC and have not had for 20 years since I retired and went on the road with solar. It is 90F inside and outside as I sit here and type with a 12 volt fan blowing on me. Fans is all we had when I was raised so I'm sort of reliving. I'm even contemplating building an outhouse. Wonder what that'll feel like in January at 10F?

@bsms Good deal on the Renegades. I popped for 4 Vipers and have not regretted it. I'm using them more now although Hondo's feet have retained a lot of dead sole and he's ok in a lot of rocks. Main problem is, I think, the longer hoof wall that is mostly not trimmed above the dead sole and has a bending action like pulling back on a finger nail. I could trim it off as the desert does on feral horses but just can't bring myself to it, so I'm booting again.

Did you collect any sand in the toe?

@SueC Funny about the receipts lining the casket. It's getting to where I could be pretty comfy in a casket lined with Hondo's receipts.


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## bsms

I didn't notice any sand when I took them off. Maybe a thimble's worth. We probably did about 300 yards total in the wash. Less than normal, and it may have fallen out the back as we went along the ATV trails. The boots are pretty tight on his feet. Not much extra room anywhere inside. I didn't see any sign of rubbing, either. We didn't do any steep climbs, but we did a lot of walking on uneven ATV trails, where there is a lot of sideways sloping - did fine on those. Only an hour of testing, but very positive so far. I had to struggle to get the boots off at the end, so I don't see them slipping off on their own!


Bandit's hind feet have a ton of sole and wall. I don't expect him to need anything there. His front have always been an issue. Maybe genetic, or maybe how hard he was ridden when younger.


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## Hondo

I was just in the middle of reading 3 mules blog and wow the stuff I'm learning there. Gotta laugh in a way but he's out there doing it. I admire him.

https://3mules.com/blog/

U.S. Supreme Court ruling 
“The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, by horse drawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but a common right which he has under his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Under this constitutional guaranty one may, therefore, under normal conditions, travel at his inclination along the public highways or in public places, and while conducting himself in an orderly and decent manner, neither interfering with nor disturbing another’s rights, he will be protected, not only in his person, but in his safe conduct.”


VEHICLE CODE - VEH
DIVISION 11. RULES OF THE ROAD [21000 - 23336] ( Division 11 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

CHAPTER 5. Pedestrians’ Rights and Duties [21949 - 21971] ( Chapter 5 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

21949. (a) The Legislature hereby finds and declares that it is the policy of the State of California that safe and convenient pedestrian travel and access, whether by foot, wheelchair, walker, or stroller, be provided to the residents of the state.
(b) In accordance with the policy declared under subdivision (a), it is the intent of the Legislature that all levels of government in the state, particularly the Department of Transportation, work to provide convenient and safe passage for pedestrians on and across all streets and highways, increase levels of walking and pedestrian travel, and reduce pedestrian fatalities and injuries.
(Added by Stats. 2000, Ch. 833, Sec. 6. Effective January 1, 2001.)


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> I was raised with an outhouse only. AND, believe it or not, a Sears Roebuck catalog. Recycling was not a modern invention.
> 
> I do not have AC and have not had for 20 years since I retired and went on the road with solar. It is 90F inside and outside as I sit here and type with a 12 volt fan blowing on me. Fans is all we had when I was raised so I'm sort of reliving. I'm even contemplating building an outhouse. Wonder what that'll feel like in January at 10F?


Our Bill was off-grid in a caravan for over two decades before moving into town a couple of years ago. Even installed a wood heater in his caravan for winter and then had to keep the windows open so the place didn't turn into an oven! Ran his TV and fridge off 12V and solar, and had a back-up generator for running his breadmaker if necessary. His toilet was the proverbial two stout branches: One to lean on and one to keep the dogs away; everything that needed burying buried neatly in the leaf litter in respect for nature. Roamed about the district doing farmsitting and farm contract work like fencing. Invented the kangaroo gate and installed all of ours when he fenced the place for the prior owner of our farm a long time ago:



These allow kangaroos to pass through fences without destroying them and injuring themselves, while keeping livestock in. We are lucky to have several in our perimeter fencing, and the kangaroos use them happily. The bottom half metre of the fence is cut out between the pickets, and replaced with three strands of wire hanging vertically from twists in the horizontal supporting wire. The vertical wires swing freely, but keep their relative positions. Bill experimented with all sorts of configurations and materials. He says he tried hanging chains into the gap instead of wires, but these wrapped around the fence wires above when kangaroos pass through at speed. The wires occasionally hook up and have to be returned to their hanging positions, but overall it's a great system that prevents many marsupial injuries and saves much time as there are less fence repairs.

Brett and I are also off-grid in a passive-solar house we constructed using straw bales, a technique from your shores which has been totally super for us, it is such a comfortable place. No power bills! No water bills! No electrical outages! And we run on under 10% of average Australian household electricity consumption, which one of the companies quoting swore we would never do, but here we are, and we're doing it quite easily, as we don't need it for anything except lighting, computers, a twin-tub washer, breadmaker, fridge and freezer, electric kettle (except in mid-winter when we use gas) and the odd power tool and lithium battery charge for our pole saw, mower etc. I like that we can use modern technology combined with commonsense to get back to the more modest consumption patterns of our grandparents, and still be really comfortable. Water is from a Sydney tube system (solar) and winter boosting via the ******* of our small wood heater/stove/oven. I don't know why everyone isn't doing this, it saves so much money and is so much less wasteful.

Yesterday, the plastic shopping bag ban came into effect in Western Australia, and we were so amused that they actually had a public education campaign for months beforehand. _Get ready now! Buy your own sturdy bags!_ :rofl: How revolutionary. Except that our grandparents already did it like that, and so did we, for all our lives. But then we're troglodytes, and I don't even have an iPhone! ;-)




> @*SueC* Funny about the receipts lining the casket. It's getting to where I could be pretty comfy in a casket lined with Hondo's receipts.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

We think the stock feed receipts for getting all the things old Romeo has needed for four years to carry on merrily despite only having half his molars left would by now fill two caskets and not leave room for us! Short-cut chaff that mustn't be spiky in any way, canola meal, copra meal, bran to make it nice and slippery so it doesn't catch on the way down, vitamin/mineral mix, and "pony maintenance" cubes soaked in hot water twice daily until mushy to make his enormous supplementary feeds. The dog loves it too and is always licking at the stuff he drops.

[


I had fun with the curling ribbon yesterday and the parcel has left our little town, ETA apparently one week! I'm not sure I believe it (not because of technology but because of organisation), but imagine if it had gone by rowboat, then it really wouldn't be getting to Arizona before Christmas.  - On a related note, Brett really wanted me to get some tinned possum to put in the parcel, it's great for camping trips. But they were out, so I had to make do with tinned koala. If you don't like it, I'm sure Roman will! ;-)

Mary Lou wanted to send you some of her fibre for potential use in your saddle, as she always makes plenty I brush out and we collect it in big bags. At the last moment I decided not to include it because it has some seeds in it too and smells of donkey and probably wouldn't get through quarantine, and we'd hate for the whole thing to be confiscated. So Mary Lou just sends her greetings today!


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## Hondo

Hi Mary Lou! I love you too!!! 

I haven't actually been on the road for a little over four years now. Heck, I'm not even homeless anymore since I installed my very own mail box on the ranch. Before that, by some definitions, I was technically homeless. Ahem, High End Homeless

My LP fridge is dismal in hot weather, weather I did not have while following springtime. Just a month or so ago I bought a 5-6 cubic foot LP freezer and it works great. It's a good old 1975 model from Sweden. Got it from a ranch nearby that has used it since 1980 but put in a humongous solar system a few years ago and decided they'd have no further use for it. Ice and cold water in July. A luxury for me indeed!

I put a wood stove in the back but as you described, it was just too much for the small space I'm in. I have a couple of 100 Lb. bottles on an automatic switch over when one runs dry. Leaves me plenty of time to get the dry one filled.

I really have everything I need and most that I want. I would like to be a little closer to a few people. Equestrians in particular.

I've been musing about starting a search for equestrian friendly towns where land in not too high as an equestrian retirement community. Don't know if such a thing exist except for the very well heeled.

But then I look outside, think of all the unfinished trail projects, and wonder how I could ever leave.

I don't know how to calculate my foot print but I'm thinking it's pretty small.


----------



## Hondo

Ok. Did a good test on both the fores and hinds. Deep dry sand stretches plus sections of heavy rock.

He did not stumble one single time all morning where normally he would have at least 5 or so good sized stumbles.

The hinds for some reason I don't understand had almost the normal amount of sand. But the fores had no more than 10%-20% of normal. So that's it. The fores are where the stumbles come from and his foot stayed up against the front of the toe. It worketh!

Did about an hour of rock removal from my new trail connection. Hondo stood patiently waiting and watching.


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## whisperbaby22

I only had boots on the front, probably because of sand kicked up by the fronts the hinds may need a different solution.


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## Hondo

I'm thinking I may have it sort of figured out. The Renegades are open in the back and when buried in the loose sand act as a sort of scoop to scoop up and scoop in the sand. And the foot may pull back a bit and open the front some to let some in.

With the sock hanging down over the front, the front problem is solved. And on the back I believe the sock hangs a bit below the lip of the "scoop", so when the foot is pulled up, sand is blocked from going in. Partly anyhow. Better installation of the socks may help.

I was using the bottom of the same sock on the hinds and it was pretty tight. I think it may need to be a sloppier fit to work well.

I'll get more socks to try on the 5th. More testing but at least he's to the point where he's not stumbling with the boots in the heavy rocks.


----------



## SueC

Hondo said:


> I was just in the middle of reading 3 mules blog and wow the stuff I'm learning there. Gotta laugh in a way but he's out there doing it. I admire him.
> 
> https://3mules.com/blog/
> 
> U.S. Supreme Court ruling
> “The right of a citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, by horse drawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but a common right which he has under his right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
> 
> Under this constitutional guaranty one may, therefore, under normal conditions, travel at his inclination along the public highways or in public places, and while conducting himself in an orderly and decent manner, neither interfering with nor disturbing another’s rights, he will be protected, not only in his person, but in his safe conduct.”


This legislative stuff is amusing!  Hope it's useful for the mule guy.

That's a great link - we've bookmarked it. He'd fit right into our _Grass Roots_ community, as an honoured example. And the mules are adorable.

I love that historical anecdote about how Socrates spent a whole morning at the Athens markets without saying a thing, with all his students following along expectantly. When he finally spoke, he said, "So many things I don't need!"

I feel like that every time someone sends me a kitchen appliance catalogue! :rofl: Or if we're actually turning the TV back on, which we did for Wimbledon last night, for the first time in five months, and we see the commercials. Socrates would have been even more bamboozled than in Athens back in the day. :rofl:


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## Hondo

Never heard the Socrates saying but often when in a store when a clerk asks if they can help me find something I'll reply, "No, I'm just looking around for something I don't need".

I do NEED a way however keep sand out of Hondo's boots. Will buy some larger dimension soft stick on foam so as to not look so goofy. The squirrels, birds, and lizards have been laughing at us with our get up.

You actually own a working TV?? If it's a big screen I'm going to be really disappointed. Those things have a Sasquatch footprint.

I guess it's ok to just HAVE it as long as it's not turned on.

I could never play tennis. I tended to doze off while waiting to be served the ball. Table tennis fills my needs better.


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## SueC

Ah, we're a bit too uncoordinated for successful table tennis at this house! 

It's pretty much the only sport I can watch here because

a) the other commonly shown sports in Australia are football and cricket and both are like watching paint dry,
b) they only show it twice a year here (Australian Open season, and Wimbledon) so I don't have to spend much time on it,
c) it is far less confusing when there are only two people for one ball (even four in doubles is OK), than a whole horde of them,
d) it's relatively civilised, and has some nice participants who are likeable people, and
e) they don't show horse sports and other interesting stuff except during Olympics, Commonwealth Games etc

...and anyway, I'm not much of a TV watcher.

We do have a working TV but have never bought one, since we always get cast-offs from other people who feel the compulsion to update to the latest and biggest. That said, we still haven't bothered to install the aerial for it, so we didn't use it for five months. And I had to bring the (intended) roof aerial indoors to watch Wimbledon.

At university I had a cast-off TV in the time of big boxes with actual Cathode Ray tubes. When it broke, I used it as an ironing board and didn't bother to replace it, too many interesting books.

This photograph shows the relative proportions of the main bookcase wall as compared to the television at our house. And we have a huge bookcase wall in the office too, and sundry smaller bookshelves scattered around, in addition to a number of _tsundoku_ (Japanese term for piles of books awaiting reading on bedside tables, coffee tables etc).

The green sofa we got especially for Jess.  (from auction, used ;-))




Occasionally, visitors are disappointed at the size of our television, and try to convince us of the merits of surround sound. But we tell them: If we want surround sound (or "realistic"), we just go outdoors. 

PS: If you're really keen you could probably use memory foam / moulding foam to make special insoles for Hondo that fill the hollow bits of the hoof undersides. How well that would work, I'm not sure; would require testing.


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## Hondo

That's an acceptable TV. Won't be spending too many hours glued to that!! 

I had thought about the memory foam also, but it'd need to be stuck to the bottom or it could raise up with the sand flowing underneath, unless it expanded quickly to block it.

For now I remembered I had some double stick carpet tape and some 1/16" very tough neoprene from yet another project. So I attached a piece of neoprene at the back of the foot and when the heel captivator comes up it will reach about half way or so up the captivator. If that works out the squirrels will have to find another form of entertainment. Perhaps with a cast of TV.

If it doesn't work I find some appropriate memory foam and use some double stick on that.


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## SueC

The squirrels are losing their entertainment? The mind boggles. 

Have you emailed Kirt Lander about this issue? Because if not, he's very approachable and helpful, as well as an incurable tinkerer. There may be existing solutions to this problem he knows about. He invented the Renegade and you can email him on the contact address on the Renegade site. I chatted to him in the past because of the article I wrote on hoof boots.


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## gottatrot

Are you putting the sock over the hoof like we wear socks? That is what we did. Meaning, we didn't cut the sock or anything.
Boot Socks | EasyCare


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## Hondo

@SueC Way back when I first tried the Renegades, four years ago when Hondo was toe walking, I read a response by Lander about the sand in the toe. "What do you do if you get sand in your own shoes? You stop and pour it out."

So I'm hesitant about asking.

@gottatrot I'm cutting the toe off. I want his hoof as far forward in the boot as possible and was thinking that would be counterproductive........but maybe not.

Bottom line is, the socks do work. I have a solution. But me being an incurable tinkerer myself, I gotta try everything I think of. (keeps me at home and out of the bars at night) 

I'm going shopping tomorrow and will pick up some large dimension sticky foam to try also. The rubber I'm using may just get pushed right off the carpet tape on the first deep step.

I like to remember Edison and his light bulb.


----------



## SueC

Hondo said:


> @*SueC* Way back when I first tried the Renegades, four years ago when Hondo was toe walking, I read a response by Lander about the sand in the toe. "What do you do if you get sand in your own shoes? You stop and pour it out."


OMG, that's so inconvenient! I wonder if he got out of the wrong side of his bed the morning he wrote that. No wonder you're discouraged about asking. It's a good thing that you're an inventive DIY person and surrounded by other inventive DIY people in these nice little journalling communities!  And that we all love a good brainstorm when things get tricky.

I'm not a great mechanic, I admit it, and that I find motors incredibly boring, and I didn't pull toasters apart as a child. But, I recently managed to fix a mechanical problem in my twin tub washing machine with a piece of brickie's string, and this has now been soundly holding up for two months. Worst thing that can happen is that I have to replace the string. Now that was satisfying. (A little knob broke off on a mechanism that lifts the plunger off the drain hole to drain the machine, so I just made a loop to replace the knob's function, and tied that to the lifting-upping-ring that was previously attached to the broken plastic knob.)

Tinkering can be addictive, and finding a solution that works puts a spring in your step!


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## Hondo

I've just spent the last few minutes finding out what a twin tub washer is including videos.

One of the things I first missed the most when first starting my travels was the handiness of a washing machine as opposed to a laundromat. I just don't wait well. Hardly ever use the dryer as I would rather hang them out on a line when home rather that wait. And there is nothing as nice as sun dried fresh sheets to slip in between.

Now that I've accepted my traveling days are behind me, I've determined to get a washing machine even though a generator would need to be running during it's cycle. But it would need to be subjected to freezing weather so I've been wondering which one would lead itself to the easiest draining to protect from freezing.

The twin tub sounds perfect! And the prices are incredibly low. And not having to interface the agitator and spin tub in the same chamber eliminates, I would think, a lot of vulnerabilities to failure.

I have the spot all picked out right next to the cloths line. It'll get some type of cover.

I'll admit to having spent much of my life as a bit of a motorhead that loves all things mechanical. Hondo as made a huge dent in that area. Nearly supplanted it in fact. But I remain a hopeless DIY'er. If there are no projects on board and nothing broken to fix, I'm apt to go break something so I can fix it. I've been accused of thinking up projects just so I'll have a good excuse to go buy a particular tool.

I have thought about getting an old ringer washer with a gasoline motor but I have a generator already and that'd just be one more motor to maintain.

So thanks for mentioning your twin tub washer. It made my morning!


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## whisperbaby22

When I did it I cut out the foot of the sock and pulled the socks down on top of the boot. If you look at easyboot trails you will see they have a lot of velcro. My socks covered pretty much the entire boot, leaving only the part that hit the ground uncovered. Kept all but a bit of fine sand out and protected the velcro.


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## SueC

Twin tubs are pretty cool - use hardly any electricity - don't have that huge surge to start a huge drum, so run happily off small photovoltaic systems. Also they don't use much water, or detergent. You wash sequentially. Make one tub of suds, wash whites first, wash linen next, then wash coloured stuff, then the really dirty farm clothes, then the dog bedding - in the same suds, and you pump the spin suds back in the tub too. Each load goes through the spinner and then you rinse as well, sequentially until you think there's too much residue in the water. Then you can put that on your trees, and run more clean water for rinsing.

When we were in the caravan while building, we kept the twin tub in the shed, lifted it out next to the tank for washing (and it's such a light thing), hooked it directly to the tank tap, and ran it off our generator (as we didn't have our off-grid electric system installed yet). The water went on the garden, so I was really careful about the detergent used (simple wool wash was pretty safe and didn't kill anything).

It's really handy, and lots of Japanese use it in their apartment kitchens, then wheel it away again.

But here's an alternative idea:








Actual how-tos for different setups here:

https://diyprojects.ideas2live4.com/convert-an-electric-washing-machine-to-pedal-power/

Now isn't that something! I really admire that concept as it's great for people who don't have electricity - or who need extra exercise!


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## bsms

Would this prevent the sand from entering at the rear?









​ Renegade© Hoof Boots | Custom Fit Heel​


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## whisperbaby22

The trails pretty well covers the hoof. I only used them on the fronts. I rode in deep sand, only at a walk. Without the socks I wold get small pebbles and a lot of sand. Only a small amount of fine sand with socks on. Looked funny, but worked!


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## bsms

bsms said:


> Would this prevent the sand from entering at the rear?...


Arghhhhh! If you try to quote it in a reply, you can see the picture. :evil: Otherwise, follow the link. Need a head-pounding "smilie"....


----------



## AnitaAnne

bsms said:


> Arghhhhh! If you try to quote it in a reply, you can see the picture. :evil: Otherwise, follow the link. Need a head-pounding "smilie"....


We used to have one where the computer punched the smilie but it has disappeared...along with other useful functions...


here's a substitute 


<BANG HEAD HERE>


----------



## Hondo

@whisperbaby22 The trails are a whole different problem. I can see where the deep sand would just pour into the tops and a sock pulled over the top would be a great solution.

But the Renegades have a whole different problem as very little if any enters through the top but rather at the base of the boot behind the heel which is open. So I put on the sock sections before the boot.

@bsms I don't think the special fit would make much difference. The foot will lift up out of the boot in the back if there is any force pulling the boot downward. That is what the pastern strap is for. In mud, deep sand, or even water, the boot will come off without the pastern strap. Ask me how I know this.

If you read all the literature they even tell you the bulb captivator strap does not even need to be loosened to remove the boot. And it does not.

So there is virtually no way that the heel will always remain in contact with the boot. So it's gonna scoop up sand and mud unless it's blocked from going in. And then no matter how tight the bulb captivator is tightened, as the foot turns left and right within the boot as it does some always, the sand or mud gradually packs in the toe and shoves the boot back resulting in a long toed horse.

That said, the Renegades/Vipers are the best I've tried for Hondo. Not necessarily for Rimmey. I've ponied him a lot in Gloves including 11 loads of salt and he did very little wear on the gloves. But Rimmey is a horse that will wear metal shoes paper thin before they come off. Unfortunately that has happened far too often. But he is just real easy on shoes including boots. I put gloves on him that no way fit and they stayed on.

So a lot depends on the horse and how he moves his feet on which boot is best. Hondo squirms around all over the place and Renegades are best for that. The bulb captivator seems to hold it in place where he will twist out of the Gloves.

@SueC Bone on bone on both knees plus some spurs on the right rules out bicycle power for the washer. And I am very electron challenged on my solar setup. So I'll probably use a generator for now. Maybe if I could find an old windmill I could hook it up. Now that sounds like a fun project. Solar windmill would be too simple.

Or I could do like Steinbeck did in Travels With Charlie and put my cloths in a large trash barrel in the back of my pickup and let them agitate from the road action. Not sure I drive enough to wash too many though.

No, I won't hook up Hondo. That would be too demeaning.

The river has dried up during the dry spell or I could go down and beat them on a rock. That's suppose to send water squirting through every fiber and do a really good job.

Separate cloths??? Once in a laundry mat I was dumping my cloths into a washer, whites, towels, jeans, and whatever when a lady standing nearby remarked, "I can tell you're not married" :0)


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> @*SueC* Bone on bone on both knees plus some spurs on the right rules out bicycle power for the washer. And I am very electron challenged on my solar setup. So I'll probably use a generator for now. Maybe if I could find an old windmill I could hook it up. Now that sounds like a fun project. Solar windmill would be too simple.


Ouch!!!!! Eeeek! Poor knees! Yes, twin tub will do the trick.

I don't suppose you can do hydroelectrics where you are? :rofl:




> Or I could do like Steinbeck did in Travels With Charlie and put my cloths in a large trash barrel in the back of my pickup and let them agitate from the road action. Not sure I drive enough to wash too many though.


There are people in the GR community who actually do that - have their washing and suds in a leakproof container in their boot and take it on their job commute. I'm trying to avoid unnecessary wear on my shoulder joints with heavy loads though, because I really don't fancy shoulder surgery down the track...

Brett wants to know if you've read our favourite Steinbeck - _The Winter Of Our Discontent_ - which is so hilarious!  We also love _Tortilla Flat,_ and I thought _The Grapes Of Wrath_ was so excellent, and is still just as applicable for its social critique. 

First Steinbeck I read was _The Red Pony_ when I was 11, because it was obviously about horses. Man did I get a shock. Nellie put down with a hammer, emergency caesarean. And of course the red pony dying horribly of strangles I think it was, and that awful scene with the vulture taking its eye out as it was dying. I couldn't get rid of the images in my head... Not _The Saddle Club_, now! :rofl:




> No, I won't hook up Hondo. That would be too demeaning.


I see you've read our minds! :rofl: If we were neighbours, we'd happily lend you the donkeys; two of them really need the exercise...




> Separate cloths??? Once in a laundry mat I was dumping my cloths into a washer, whites, towels, jeans, and whatever when a lady standing nearby remarked, "I can tell you're not married" :0)


Uses less water and detergent too and means you're not loading your shoulder joints up as much when transferring the washing into the spin compartment. 

At least you're using detergent. I knew someone in the 1990s who had no idea that you were supposed to use anything like that, or that you don't hang up your clothes scrunched up as they come from the washer, with a single peg, and let them dry in this shape...

By the way, washing gloves are essential for twin tub operation, or you'll kill your skin with the suds.

Our Bill is always getting lectures from his sister about how he should be vacuuming once a day! (She doesn't have a hobby, we think, unless this is her hobby!)


----------



## SueC

bsms said:


> Arghhhhh! If you try to quote it in a reply, you can see the picture. :evil: Otherwise, follow the link. Need a head-pounding "smilie"....





AnitaAnne said:


> We used to have one where the computer punched the smilie but it has disappeared...along with other useful functions...
> 
> 
> here's a substitute
> 
> 
> <BANG HEAD HERE>


Try this too! 












or this...









http://www.guy-sports.com/fun_pictures/escape_key.jpg


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> First Steinbeck I read was _The Red Pony_ when I was 11, because it was obviously about horses. Man did I get a shock. Nellie put down with a hammer, emergency caesarean. And of course the red pony dying horribly of strangles I think it was, and that awful scene with the vulture taking its eye out as it was dying. I couldn't get rid of the images in my head... Not _The Saddle Club_, now! :rofl:


Seriously, I read The Red Pony as a kid too, because it was in the kid's section. It wasn't a good kid's book!!
I wasn't totally shocked though, because my mom's idea of good books to read aloud to us kids were things like _The Yearling_, _Where The Red Fern Grows_, _Old Yeller_, etc. All with terrible outcomes to "teach a lesson." No wonder I liked fairy tales. The stories made me feel desperate as a kid to keep my pets out of trouble and alive.


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## Hondo

@SueC Re: Brett wants to know if you've read our favourite Steinbeck - The Winter Of Our Discontent - which is so hilarious! We also love Tortilla Flat, and I thought The Grapes Of Wrath was so excellent, and is still just as applicable for its social critique. 

Comment: Nope, haven't read that but if it's yall's favorite and hilarious I will. All of his books have made an impression on me. Cannery Row comes to mind. I've not only read Grapes of Wrath and watched the movie, I lived part of it in real life. My parents moved from NW Arkansas to the land of plenty (California) along with brothers, sisters, and others from the area to the same general location. Many are still there. When 6yo, Mom, Dad, sister and I moved back to the family farm in a Model A 2 door sedan fully loaded but not quite as much as in the movie. Dad and brothers had overhauled the engine but the first day out something happened and we had to turn back. It was fixed and the trip was then made without incident. Takes a long time in a Model A with sections of dirt along the way.









We do have running water here much of the year. Any device installed to capture it's energy would likely be soon washed away however.

There is some good wind occasionally, especially when it's cloudy so I have contemplated putting up a wind generator. 

But one way or another, the twin tub will definitely happen. I didn't know they existed or I would likely already have one.

My hands crack badly. I even use gloves for doing the dishes. The surgical type for mechanics.

Vacuum daily? I used to have dreams of a log cabin with a dirt floor. There are times now that I come very close. Neat freak I'm not!

@gottatrot We had a dog that met the very same fate as Old Yeller. An unbelievably intelligent dog. Very sad to think about.


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## SueC

Well, I won't be reading _Old Yeller_, or I'll be looking like this again: 

Actually, that's not a good emoji. I'll see if I can import one:










Horrible stuff like that just has a way of sticking in the memory!

Steinbeck's writing is very effective when you consider that the gruesome images he painted into my mind are still there 36 years later! And even the name of the mare is stuck fast with it!

You'll enjoy _The Winter Of Our Discontent_, @Hondo. It's about this really sweet man who decides to become evil so he can "get ahead".

Why is it that these old cars look so much better than the modern ones, even though they perform less well? I'm all nostalgic and didn't even live through that age. I suppose it was watching these types of cars on _All Creatures Great And Small_ growing up...


----------



## bsms

I still like the movie Old Yeller. Liked the book too. You cannot own and love dogs without facing death. That was part of the point - that we cannot let the pain of separation cause us to lose sight of the good.


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## Hondo

bsms said:


> we cannot let the pain of separation cause us to lose sight of the good.


Easier said than done at times though when up to the armpits in alligators.


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## SueC

This is true, @bsms, but since gruesome animal death descriptions in books really stick to my brain, I avoid acquiring more. :rofl:

It's quite enough to have to put horses down every couple of years at this point in my life because of how many aged horses I retire. At least their deaths haven't been gruesome (although the method by which we euthanise horses isn't the kindest to the onlooker - but I do believe it is the kindest and quickest for the horse). And yes, it shouldn't eclipse everything that came before.


----------



## Hondo

Here is a picture of Bobby, a first cousin-the taller one, me, Rowdy (the dog that died) and the very Model A we traveled in from California to Arkansas.


----------



## SueC

Awwww!

I used to think how amazing it was when people's childhood photos looked like something out of a history book.

But now I'm noticing this is also definitely happening with my own childhood photos! :rofl:

The photos haven't changed. Just the world...


----------



## Hondo

SueC said:


> The photos haven't changed. Just the world...


You can say that again! (remember that from the laugh in?)


----------



## Hondo

Wanted to try out the boot mods today but it was 100F last night at 8PM in the RV and already 75F at 4:30 AM so riding is on hold for a bit. Monsoons are supposed to bring cool weather in a couple of days.

Was about 90F in my outside summer sleeping quarters at 8 PM and I was fairly comfortable with a 12V fan covering the length of my body, blindfolded, with ear plugs. Slept well as I usually do.

Thinking about that picture I posted. I was six when we moved back that was over 70 years ago. That Model A will turn 90 yo next year.

I think I look to be 8 or 9 in the picture but that was a loooong time ago. Talk about feeling like you're part of history!

My cousin Bobby was in the stage of what they used to call "high pockets" when teens or pre teens legs began to grow before the body responded.

It just hit 98 on the thermometer above my laptop. Loaded up the generator in the pickup and have it pumping water in the 2000 gallon storage tank about 1/4 mile away. I'm lucky to have running water. Such luxuries.


----------



## SueC

Ooh, look what the post tracker told me this morning!

Item received into Customs for clearance
LOS ANGELES (US)
Date & time Fri 06 Jul • 10:45am 


It took almost as long to get from Albany to Perth (4h drive time) than to cross the big pond from Australia to America!


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## Hondo

Must be time traveling!


----------



## Hondo

Been a slow day. Got another verse to sing to my horse.


*On top of my Hondo
All covered in dust
I found my true heart horse
Till death do us part

I love my horse Hondo
He gives me his best
I point where his nose goes
He fills in the rest

We ride over hillsides
We travel down streams
My only horse Hondo
Has filled all my dreams

.................................
.................................
.................................
.................................

*


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## SueC

:rofl: Maybe it was perambulating to Perth?

It is kinda exciting to track an international parcel. I hope customs don't steal any contents!

We once watched a funny movie (_Amelie_) where a sub-plot was a garden gnome travelling around the world in lieu of its human, and sending postcards back to the human for that vicarious travelling experience. We kind of stopped travelling when we put our roots down on this place in 2010 and started nesting. Good thing we travelled before!


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## Hondo

@SueC Some of your posts take me back to Readers Digest and Word Power.

I now know that small figurines of men with red pointy hats are known as garden gnomes. And that the g is silent.

The internet is so neat! I no longer require a large dictionary by my side while reading normal passages.


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## SueC

The Internet really is a great tool.

Here's the travelling garden gnome from _Amelie_.




















Sort of like that tinned koala heading your way! :rofl:


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## Hondo

Although the internet has developed many uses, some good some bad, the primary idea behind it was information storage and retrieval. And in that it certainly excels.

Concerned about your koala making it through customs and the possibility that with my name and address on the container I could be implicated.

This from Wiki: The Koala is listed as vulnerable in the Australian Endangered Species List. It is estimated that there are approximately 100,000 koalas living in the wild and as such you are not allowed to eat them. It is illegal to keep a Koala as a pet anywhere in the world.


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## whisperbaby22

There is an interesting article in the LA times about mapping the genome of the koala in an effort to keep them going.


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## Hondo

whisperbaby22 said:


> There is an interesting article in the LA times about mapping the genome of the koala in an effort to keep them going.


Thank you. Highlighted, searched, and bingo. Nice article. Somehow I'm doubting there will be anything edible in my "tinned" Koala.

The koalas are threatened. Can their genome help us save them?


----------



## SueC

Hondo said:


> Although the internet has developed many uses, some good some bad, the primary idea behind it was information storage and retrieval. And in that it certainly excels.
> 
> Concerned about your koala making it through customs and the possibility that with my name and address on the container I could be implicated.
> 
> This from Wiki: The Koala is listed as vulnerable in the Australian Endangered Species List. It is estimated that there are approximately 100,000 koalas living in the wild and as such you are not allowed to eat them. It is illegal to keep a Koala as a pet anywhere in the world.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

This is such fun. I'm sure you're going to enjoy that tinned koala!

And it is tinned, and _is_ edible. However, it could cause indigestion if you're not careful! :rofl:


On a serious note, that's something I really hate about the human approach to "conservation".

The koalas need _habitat_ - that's the main reason they are now threatened - because people have been bulldozing their habitat to make way for shopping centres, suburbia, monoculture forestry and agriculture. And people have been saying for three decades that the koalas were going to head for extinction unless we stopped obliterating their habitat, but is anyone listening? And now there's all this stuff about using genome to save them. :evil:


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## Hondo

Agree with the "no duh" way to conservation. But when it becomes clear that the profit motive absolutely will kill them off, and there are avenues that could possibly help and even succeed in saving them, then I support "going for it" even if it involves mapping the genome.

They did learn some things from the genome that can increase successful transplants from privately owned property falling under the developers gallows to government owned property.

But, yeah, still if we could just leave more stuff alone, everything would be all right. At the rate we've gone the last 100 years there may be no habitat for us left soon.

I'm sure you must have reckoned I might Google "Tinned Koala" knowing how I love to Google stuff. hee


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## SueC

Hee hee. So isn't it good that the rest of the parcel is full of surprises? ;-)

Brett and I are having great fun being your Secret Santa!  Fingers crossed, customs won't steal anything...


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## SueC

We've just been informed customs has released the parcel and it is now with the US postal service. They didn't say if they stole anything or not, but it does look like you are going to get _something_!


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## Hondo

Product description
Want to find out which of your friends and family share your passion for daring world cuisine? Then whip out your tin of Koala meat and judge them where they eat! Our unique Tinned Koala Meat has been made from prime cuts, for a superior dish that is packed with flavour and nutrition. Get your daily intake of Cuteness, Aussieness and Parenting from just one tin! Along with all the nutritional benefit of eating fresh Koala meat. And don't worry all of our Koala meat comes from those that have passed away through natural causes, such as white water rafting, rock climbing and Emu riding accidents. OK, so it's not real Koala meat, but it does make for a marvelous novelty gift idea, or it's great for just having a laugh with your friends and family. Pop a tin in your shopping basket the next time you're down the local shops, or leave out on the kitchen worktop when family come over for dinner and prepare to have a blast! Though be prepared for people fainting, eyebrow raising and/or dishing out the occasional playful slap. Not recommended for use on a first date, in the University cafeteria, or round the mother-in-laws during a Sunday dinner


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## SueC

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## egrogan

SueC said:


> We once watched a funny movie (_Amelie_...


Hands down my favorite movie soundtrack of all time. Also, excellent music to ride to-so many changes in mood and tempo really keep you responding as the music changes. Izzy also loves riding with it on :grin:

Add me to the list of kids who read all the books you mentioned and cried my eyes out to parents who simply responded, “all animals die some day.”


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## SueC

OMG, @egrogan, did you read _The Red Pony_? Its searing imagery still turns my stomach 36 years after the event. It's well written and all that, but I wouldn't want to read it again. And when I first held it in my 11-year-old hands, I thought, "This should be nice!" :shock:

I'm not really squeamish in real life at all, but I'd be quite revolted to witness that kind of thing first-hand. For me, I think it's almost equally bad reading it, even though I know it's not real.

I used to watch _All Creatures Great And Small_ as a kid, and every time an animal got put down I'd cry and cry, and my parents would tell me, "It's not real, it's all acted!" and I'd say to them, "I know, but it's based on a true story, so it did happen!" Waaah etc.

And yet I have absolutely no problem doing dissection demonstrations (did that for years for zoology undergraduates), or preparing (dead) rabbits and kangaroos for table. Go figure. But those are dead, and not suffering, and I'm just dealing with the architecture of the body, which is actually really interesting and awe-inspiring, and I'm also planning on donating my own body to science for the anatomy lab (since I can't be buried with the horses).

I think I'm really influenced by the Native American philosophies I read about that as a kid. Must have respect for animal. Must be thankful to animal. Priority one is to minimise suffering - a quick and humane death. That's actually like an ingrained religion to me. I can't change the food chain, but I can be respectful. Even if I was vegetarian it wouldn't change the food chain, and anyway, I think our beef cattle's lives are worth having, even though they only live for two years or so. Quality of life is so important while any of us have it.

/end ramble on someone else's journal


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## Hondo

Why can't you be buried with a horse? What if you both were cremated? Did you read When Legends Die? It's all about giving respect for the animal giving it's life for us.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Why can't you be buried with a horse? What if you both were cremated? Did you read When Legends Die? It's all about giving respect for the animal giving it's life for us.


Because our horses are buried on our farm here, and if we wanted to be buried here, we would have to have a cemetery license which costs many tens of thousands if it is even approved. And I don't think having my ashes sprinkled on their skeletons is the same, as being buried in or on the same earth as they are. So that's why I'd rather give a future generation of medical students something to practice on. 

I've not read that and now I'll have to Googlenate it...


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## SueC

Ah yes! Found it! I'll have to see if our library can get it in for me; probably they can, as they can request statewide. I've looked at a few plot summaries and a movie trailer and think that looks really interesting. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## Hondo

@SueC It has probably been 40 or more years since I read the book and as I recall, the middle section seemed to get rather long with endless rodeoing. But the wrap up in the end was what made the book for me. We were visiting the MIL and I stayed up all night reading it. I'm an analytical reader and very very slow.

@whisperbaby22 I just ordered some not only diabetic socks but bamboo diabetic socks.

After further testing I discovered that although I was so all fired positive that the sand came in from the back, (why wouldn't it?), it turns out I was very wrong. With the back under the captivator completely sealed, there was about 4 times or more sand than in the other foot with a sock pulled down over the TOP of the boot, and the sock was too small and short.

I was thinking about some swimsuit type foam or bell boots of sorts but now see (i think) the benefit of the of the diabetic socks. They relax to cover more entry points than the stretchy stuff that sand can creep under.

So thanks again. I had to make a whole big trip around before I finally got back to what worked for you. But sadly, that's just me. And doubtful that I'll be changing anyways soon


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## whisperbaby22

Your welcome.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> @*SueC* It has probably been 40 or more years since I read the book and as I recall, the middle section seemed to get rather long with endless rodeoing. But the wrap up in the end was what made the book for me. We were visiting the MIL and I stayed up all night reading it. I'm an analytical reader and very very slow.


Interesting that you have the same reading style as me. I've never read fast, but I've really absorbed my reading. If it's non-fiction I think about it and relate it back to first principles and other sources of information, and I try to remember any relevant facts in it. If it's fiction I'm visualising it and thinking about the metaphors and characters and whatever time in history it is and whatever place on the planet, and dozens of other things, like how it relates to things I've read before. So that takes time, and that's OK with me!  I also really enjoy that process. Only thing is, so many good books and only fourscore and a bit on average... how does anyone get bored?

I got a note from the post tracking that your parcel has been delivered. If it's anything like Australia, it probably means you have to drive to the nearest post office to pick it up - or do they actually deliver packages out to you?

If it's actually been delivered, I have to say the US postal service hasn't sat on its hands like the Australian service. AusPost had it for 5 days before they even got it out of the country; it touched down in the US late Friday night LA time, was cleared by Customs the following evening, and apparently delivered before noon Monday (so they say).

So enjoy your tinned koala! ;-)


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## Hondo

@SueCI picked up mail yesterday. I have a rural mailbox that USPS delivers to. Sometimes when UPS hands off a package to USPS for delivery, tracking will show delivered but it doesn't happen until the next day. Since this was foreign, this may have happened. I'll trot down to the mailbox today after the mail runs and check on it. Wasn't there yesterday. 

I no longer read the Sunday comics from a newspaper. (are there still newspapers delivered??)

I used to read every one. It would take me an hour or longer to analyze my way through the subject matter. But when you're reading calculus, slow reading is a definite plus. For history, not so much.


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## SueC

Did you know that calculus is also the name for the calcified material dentists scrape off your teeth when they clean them? :rofl:

So although I did a course on introductory calculus at university, the dentists keep removing my calculus...


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## Hondo

No I did not!! Where in the world do you come up with all these words??


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## SueC

I eat dictionaries for breakfast! ;-)

I think it's just that no decent word ever gets past me without becoming a part of my vocabulary. We both read for hours every day. My husband and I both read dictionaries and thesauruses for fun as teenagers, and we still dip in. We find language fascinating, and of course, our continued language acquisition has only accelerated since we got married! :rofl:

Funnily, I can often even remember where I first saw or heard a significant word. The word vicarious, for instance, I acquired when reading Dickens' _Great Expectations_ as a senior in high school. I can even paraphrase the sentence from memory. Mrs Joe went to church _vicariously_ by sending Joe and Pip.

I learnt the word _infrastructure_ at age 14 in Geography class and loved it. I used it both literally and metaphorically ever after.


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## Knave

Lol. @SueC you remind me of my littlest girl in that regard. She loves words. She loves to read, but like me she does read fast. The difference between her and I is that she memorizes the things she reads. So, like you, she has to know what every word means and enjoys perousing the dictionary. Hahahahaha. I tell her she’s a crazy little duck.


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## Hondo

I read slowly. I read more slowly. I read one single word at a time, examining each word carefully. Nowhere did I see Canned Koala listed in the official FULL DESCRIPTION OF GOODS in the CUSTOMS DECLARATION.

Rats! thought I. But wait, here it is! Ha, probably thought customs might rip the bag open and lose half it's contents. But still, is that smuggling? Or perhaps it was included in the "etc" listing?

We have large mailboxes here in the country so everything fit nicely.

I was first like......wow, and eventually became even slightly damp. (No! I didn't wet myself!) The deeper I dug the more overwhelmed I became, until numbness almost set in.

Shoot, Hondo and I could exist for a week on the shipping alone.

Seriously, "Deep Gratitude" doesn't even cut it. I feel like I've been to Australia almost. But do you realize how much time, thought, and effort it will take for me to properly display some of these items? You don't care how hard it is for me? Well, I guess that's understandable considering the substantial effort you put into the selection, compilation, and sending, not to even mention the ribbon curling

Believe it or not, I had to Google Clapsticks. I had a hunch, but did not know for certain. They might make an original door knocker. If I were teaching, they could be used as a call to order. Sort of like a gavel.

I'm sitting shaking or wagging my head about how I could possibly mention every item. Sea shells, feathers, leafs, and sure enough edibles.

The strings don't bother the horse's eyes? That will go great with my ranch attire of helmet with Da Brim, orange Vipers, treeless saddle with no horn, bitless bridle, etc. I could carry etc in my Australian Walkabout Bottle holder and pull it out for lunch  That ought to be fun in a larger group.

Seriously, you and Brett have made my day and several more to come as I look and re-look at many of the items.

Last but certainly not least, I must before I go mention what is on my feet as I sit typing on my Dvorak keyboard.

The bamboo socks felt comfortable on my feet while holding them in my hands. But oh boy, when they actually slid onto by feet the pleasure multiplied several fold.

I was concerned about the thickness however. My official ranch type square toe Justin pull on boots are a bit tight which requires me to select the thinner socks. But no big worry as I also have lace up boot that I often wear.

To my very much surprise, both boots slipped on with minimal effort, including my larger right foot. (yes, i know i just did a redundancy, i don't care

I have not walked in them yet but it's time to go say hi to Hondo and Rimmey so I'll see. I'm expecting a good report.

I swear, they stand out there in the pasture just waiting for me to say it's time to come in for water when they could come in any time. They generally start coming in as soon as they see me walking towards them. But sometimes they do come on in on their own.


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## Knave

How exciting!


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## SueC

:loveshower::dance-smiley05::cheers::happy-birthday8::music019::charge::hug::winetime::clap:
:happydance::racing::falloff: :rofl:







:runpony:

Dang, why does this thing limit us to a mere 15 emojis???

How wonderful. I was sweating over the edibles. Because they are home-made. Not that this makes it more of a biohazard, and they're certainly as sterile as anything the multinationals ship freely in and out of countries under the guise of preserves. But home-made preserves don't always get through customs. We were really hoping they would, so you could have a taste of our own farm produce.  I now have to use abbreviated smilies because of the forum software. 

Happy Christmas In July! 

Oh man, we're so delighted. Just having our morning bucket of tea (we use the biggest soup mugs possible for our tea) and this is great reading.

We're not swimming in it either financially on account of our chosen new low-key lifestyle, plus an old horse that costs us more than all the other animals together to feed his twice daily senior porridge, but owing to having no extended families in Australia, and not being able to have children, we have made a habit of doing the odd random Santa, and of accruing adopted extended family all around the place. And it's so much fun when you feel inspired when you're putting something together! 

And for that kind of postage, I am glad they at least gave me parcel tracking as part of it. 

It's funny though how even when you kind of have to count your pennies a bit, you can be so extraordinarily rich in way more important ways. Now I sound like a hippie, but it's true. We feel so much more blessed now than when both of us were working fulltime in the rat-race!

Our bees say hello! I had no compunction sending our honey, because Australia has no bee diseases America doesn't have already, and our hives are clean. Did you know it takes a bee a lifetime to make just one drop of honey? We have over 200 species of flowering understorey plants plus eucalypts and Australian Christmas Trees, making a fine Gondwanan mixed floral honey, and if you have any injuries, it's great medicinal honey for wounds as well. The tea-tree content makes it as good as NZ Manuka for that. Enjoy the terroir of Redmond, Western Australia! 

But I don't go around advertising things like that on the customs declarations. "etc" is a great word. I didn't think I could get away with sending you some of Mary Lou's brushed-out donkey hair for your saddle, on account of sniffer dogs, so I had to restrain myself and not put it in! Hahaha!

etc!


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## Hondo

When reading the name on the wool insulated walk about bottle container, I sort of wrinkled my forehead a bit at the name. Digeridoonas? Where did they come up with that? Later, just a minute ago actually, I was searching YouTube for Clapstick sounds and naturally I came across Digeridoo. And a whole bunch of Aboriginal music. And how the Digeridoo is made. An educational package you've sent.

I really like the walk about bottle carrier. It is thick enough if one begins to stumble towards the end of the walk about it is thick enough to likely save the contents of what ever is left in the bottle should one happen to stumble and fall. I did learn somewhere in the past what a walk about was about but missed Dingeridoo.

My Grandad raised bees. I helped get a swarm into a new hive a couple of times and helped rob them several times. Poor bees. Only one drop?! I thank them. Grandad used to put sugar water out for them in the winter.

Pretty fantastic creatures. I read that honey has a very low concentration of hydrogen peroxide to keep down the fungus growth. Bees are pretty neat. Yellow Jackets not so much.

Counting pennies. Surviving what was then an incurable form of cancer had me counting pennies as a 57 YO and deciding if I was careful, very very careful, I could do it and pulled the pin. Its' not all been that easy and many would shun from it, but I have no regrets. And Hondo has become the icing on top.

Still wearing the socks. Move over Thorlo!


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## SueC

OMG, @*Hondo* , I had no idea! Is getting cancer in the US really like they showed on _Breaking Bad_ - you know, potential bankruptcy vs negligible treatment?

Pulling the pin is a really marvellous idea if you can do it!

And anything is better than a retirement home, we think. That's a sort of human feedlot experience. We'll become grey nomads if we get to the point that we can't look after the property, but there's ways around that too actually.

Here in Australia, we don't have to feed sugar, and even if it got like that, we'd always leave them plenty of honey for the winter, instead of short-changing them. Clearly, we're not a proper commercial enterprise! 

We loved that bottle carrier, it was quite a find. It actually looked the part, rather than being a neon-coloured synthetic thing. And you can clip it to your saddle!

Have a look at this idea though! :rofl:

https://didgeridoonas.com.au/shop/accessories/dunny-roll-holder/

Didn't think it would be as useful to you in the desert as the bottle holder though! ;-)


Now I'll have to look up Thorlo.


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> Is getting cancer in the US really like they showed on _Breaking Bad_ - you know, potential bankruptcy vs negligible treatment?


Our health care is strange. Since those who can't pay can't be turned away because of our inclusion laws, they just don't pay their bills. The only people who have a really difficult time are those who make a little bit of money. If you make a little money, but not enough to afford good health insurance, you get all the bills and try to pay on them each month. This is a real hardship. The other day we had a homeless patient (with arrest warrants) who of course didn't care about his credit and wasn't even going to try to pay his bills. So he was getting the same treatment in the ICU as the guy in the next room, who had a low paying job and couldn't afford health insurance. But the other guy didn't want to ruin his credit so was trying to pay his bills a little at a time, and it was difficult for him. 

I'm not sure how bad bankruptcy is in other countries. Here it's not exactly the worst thing that can happen. The people I know that have had overwhelming medical bills and filed bankruptcy still live in the same house, drive the same cars, and live the same lifestyle. They probably are limited on what they can buy for a few years because of bad credit. I've known some people who have chosen not to get medical treatment because of expense. But if they had decided to get treatment, they would have been treated the same as everyone else regardless of whether they could pay their bills. We regularly transfer people with no insurance by helicopter to state of the art units for heart surgery. They will receive a big bill, and they can decide to pay on it for a few years, apply for assistance they qualify for, ask for assistance through fundraisers, or default on it. 

Many of us in the U.S. pay a lot for insurance and medical expenses because our expenses include all the people who can't pay. Hospitals and medical facilities factor in all the nonpayers when billing everyone else. So even though we don't have the government paying for our health care, the health care institutions are all set up with the unpaid costs from the uninsured in mind. Many health care organizations are making a profit while also advertising how much debt forgiveness and free care they provide.


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## SueC

That's interesting, @*gottatrot* ; and it makes me so grateful for the Australian Medicare system, which Australians love and is fair to everyone. It is basically a form of health insurance that's taken out as part of your tax. Everyone who has a reasonable form of income pays a 2% of income Medicare Levy as part of their tax, and because we have PAYG (pay-as-you-go, tax and Medicare levy taken out of weekly pay and then you can try to claim some tax back at the end of the year) there is never a big bill. Under certain income levels the levy is waived, so people who are struggling that year get an exemption. People on medium wages pay 2% of their income; people on higher than average wages are expected to get private health insurance and use private hospitals, and if they don't, their Medicare levy goes up, depending on just how high their income is.

Between Medicare and the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, Australians generally do not face the stress of big medical or drug bills. If you're below average income, you go to what's called a bulk-billing doctor, who will waive the "gap" between the standard registered fee and whatever higher fee they choose to set in their practice, to below average income clients. If you're average or above, you pay a gap fee when you see the doctor. At the moment, a standard 15 minute GP appointment has a $38 rebate (= standard registered fee) on an $85 charge. Registered medicines are generally between $5 and $20 a script to the consumer. Public hospital emergency department treatment is free to all public patients, as is any sort of public hospital stay or operation or procedure. There is the problem of waiting lists and waiting times for elective surgery - but this is not generally an issue for cancer treatment etc. You can choose to go to private hospitals; in my 20s I chose to do that to get surgery to some facial bone damage from a riding accident, basically because I wanted to choose the doctor, and because it was elective surgery (not so bad that I would have got immediate surgery at a public hospital). I thought the private health insurance was a rip-off, and had paid the typical premiums into a savings account of my own the moment I started working, so I had quite a bit of change from that stash after having the surgery, so that was a great way to go. Plus, part of the fee was Medicare refunded.

Two huge advantages in our system:

1) No extra stress due to unsurmountable bills - and that means, less stress-related illness from that situation, which would otherwise cost the community extra for health care and lost productivity at work. Noone having to declare bankruptcy etc on account of medical bills...

and

2) People go and see their doctors earlier, before the condition blows out and becomes increasingly expensive to treat.


That's one thing Australia has gotten very right, I believe, and from what I understand, Canada has a comparable system,


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## Knave

I wish that our healthcare was better. I think that where I live in America the costs are over the top. I know it effects what I do in relation to health. 

There is only one asthma doctor in the town we go to for most doctor appointments. They won’t take my insurance. Just to have the visit is over $300. They require the visits twice a year to give the girls their prescriptions. 

Because of things like this we only do what we have to do. My husband and I only see a doctor if we can’t take care of it ourselves or simply live with whatever the issue is.


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## SueC

@*Hondo* , you obviously survived your cancer - were you one of those rare spontaneous remission cases, or did they develop a useful treatment after you got the cancer? (or maybe there is an option C?)

I thought you might be interested in the manufacturing process for our concentrated plum preserve! 


Fruit Trees in Nets – Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond, Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr

Netted trees, our oldest ones were put in seven years ago, left to right: Dwarf Morello Cherry, Satsuma Plum, espaliered Apples, Golden Queen Peach. We have about 30 fruit trees all up, between one and seven years old; we net during a tree's fruiting interval, so not all trees are netted at the same time. Tagasaste (tree lucerne) hedges all around for shelter, summer stock fodder and good mid-winter blossom for the bees. Main pumpkin patch in the centre, stocked with Pennsylvania Crookneck, Potimarron and Turk’s Turban varieties. Some young Ironbark vines just starting to the left – an attractive and tasty Australian heritage variety, with excellent keeping qualities.


Satsuma Plums I – Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond, Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr

Our seven-year-old Satsuma tree (Japanese blood plum, lovely rich red flesh) with the ripening fruit in February just past; the following week we started picking, and got over 80L of plums off the one espaliered tree over the course of that month. That's more than ten buckets like this:


Satsuma Plum Harvest II – Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond, Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr

During plum season, I make a wholemeal yeast-raised plum-topped slab cake we look forward to all year and which becomes our standard breakfast and afternoon tea and in-between snack all plum season. I also steam and freeze some fruit for crumbles and desserts in winter, and make the concentrated plum preserve of which you have a sample.


Plum Sauce – Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond, Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr

Our 9-litre “cauldron” is employed multiple times each summer to make lovely European-style plum sauce, which has very little added sugar (around 400g for 5kg of fruit) and is condensed down over three hours to a rich, dark sauce that tastes amazing on toast, waffles, in pancakes, mixed into yoghurt, etc. We don’t get sick of this little antioxidant fix.

It's a European palate type thing; not overly sweet, very fruity, similar to your cranberry sauce, but less sugar and with many uses both sweet and savoury.

Here's a photo page showing our fruit and vegie mandala (yes, permaculture!):


https://www.flickr.com/photos/redmoonsanctuary/albums/72157629244059607


To get captions with explanations, click on individual photos to maximise photo.

Here's the food we make using a large proportion of home-grown produce:


https://www.flickr.com/photos/redmoonsanctuary/sets/72157687753093115


It really is a lot of fun, and very satisfying, to grow much of your own food. 


:wave: Goodnight from Australia - have a great day!


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## SueC

Knave said:


> I wish that our healthcare was better. I think that where I live in America the costs are over the top. I know it effects what I do in relation to health.
> 
> There is only one asthma doctor in the town we go to for most doctor appointments. They won’t take my insurance. Just to have the visit is over $300. They require the visits twice a year to give the girls their prescriptions.
> 
> Because of things like this we only do what we have to do. My husband and I only see a doctor if we can’t take care of it ourselves or simply live with whatever the issue is.



That's so sad, @Knave. :hug: We'd be in exactly the same position if we had those charges.


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## Hondo

Thorlo is rated as the most comfortable and dry sock, and so far it has been for me, until now.

To what @gottatrot has said, the inclusion laws, to my understanding, only apply to institutions recieving government money. If they recieve taxes, inclusion applies.

I would argue a bit about people without insurance recieving the same care. I have very good insurance from my employment and I do seem to recieve preferential treatment in some ways. But I'll admit it may be my perception. I base this mostly on what I perceive as attitude changes by the front desk when they return with my insurance cards.

But for my cancer, I definitely would not be typing this if I had no insurance. I was working for a city with insurance in an HMO. I was first mis-diagnosed and told I had an aggressive strain of this very treatable form.

Cutting short, I convinced my doctor to have my slides re-read by Stanford Medical, a private institution.

Bingo! I was correct on what I thought the diagnosis should have been. Stanford was beginning a trials for my form of cancer and needed some people. I qualified by having failed three rounds of chemo and an enlargement since the last chemo.

The results of previous trials were exceedingly encouraging for people meeting my particular parameters. Problem was, my HMO did not support trials. Most insurers do not as a large majority of cancer trials fail.

Plus, my HMO was off the hook for my cost as I had already been recommended for bone morrow transplant. The HMO has a parent insurance and when the cost of treatment goes over a certain dollar amount, the parent insurance takes over the costs.

All of the cost of the trials is born by the company doing the trials, except for the many many follow up full body CT scans. Plus a tall stack of promissory papers the patient has to sign.

But with the HMO off the financial hook, they weren't interested, so I had to deal with the parent insurance who also did not support trials.

I sent them the results from previous trials. Out of a total of 18 patients, four fit my description and health status exactly. All four were clinically free after the trials. I argued that I was already ok'd for around $160, 000 of treatment for bone marrow replacement which had a high probability of failing and that the trials was cheaper. The argument came back that if the trials failed, they would still be on the hook for bone marrow replacement.

I replied, "That's what your medical review board is for".

I GOT IT, my oncology nurse told me, who I considered my guardian angle.

I was locked in a lead lined room for a week leaving only to lay on a table with another screen lowered above me where a picture of my body was assembled by the radiation particles leaving it. Funny, I had to wear one of those lead aprons when out of my room. Not to protect me, but to protect others from me!

Pretty exciting stuff! I could see the one mass get brighter and brighter each day as more and more mouse antibodies with 8-day half life radioactive iodine became attached to the tumor. And I could both see and feel the shrinkage. I could see all my blood veins and my bladder was particularly bright as that was the location of all the dead "mice" by body had killed.

I was told at the time that it took fourteen years of being clinically free for an incurable cancer to be proclaimed cured. It has been 20 years. 

Without insurance, or a lot of money up front, I would never have survived. And very happily, I carry that same insurance today.

But the basic tenant @gottatrot describes, I agree with. It's people bring themselves or a child with the flu in to emergency that runs up medical costs and insurance costs. To go to a clinic, which is hugely less expensive, the people have to have money or insurance. But to go to emergency requires neither in a tax supported institution but is hugely expensive. And that is the conundrum of the US medical system.

Oh yeah, want to mention this. I asked one of my trials doctors how the mouse antibody knew where to go and attach. He explained that it was just coursing around in my blood and when it came close enough it attached.

I reasoned that the more my blood circulated the more antibodies would attach. I asked if I could bring my health rider into the room with me and if it would help. He said there were no studies suggesting whether it would help but it certainly would not hurt and I was welcome to bring whatever I wanted.

I bought a small hand truck to carry the machine to the room and wore my heart rate monitor daily as I exercised so as to be able to go long and keep that blood pumping. Don't know if that helped, but I like to think it did.


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## Knave

That is amazing @Hondo! I love that you advocated for yourself and that here you are!


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## SueC

That's excellent, @Hondo. So glad you lived to tell this tale! :hug:


Interesting how your own proactiveness was key in your survival. I bet you were glad you knew what you did. Many people don't...


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## Hondo

I missed a whole page of posts before I posted the above.

I want to add that a recent experience causes me at least some concern about a single payer system.

Because of my relatively low income, I recently opted to use a county system for dental work where the costs are determined by income using county employees including the dentist and hygienist.

There was a huge difference between a private dentist and a regular hospital. I felt almost as if I were in a motor vehicle department. I felt very little consideration given to me as a patient and individual.

That said, it may just be this county system and may not extend to other similar systems. But it still worries me.

When I was a kid, the local doctor saw you in a room in his residence. He was retired but forced back into service by popular opinion. A lot has changed since then.


----------



## SueC

Just going to add a little note on bamboo socks:

We actually wanted to get you a bright purple pair, but they were out!!! So we could only get you a relatively sedate colour.

However, whatever the colour, they are so wonderful to wear. 

You will get some "fluffing" of bamboo fibre left on your skin when you take them off; that's normal; so we hop in the shower at the end of the day anyway and this means the fluff doesn't get spread around the house. Also you will find they take longer than normal socks to dry, but you also don't need to wash them each time you wear them. Hang them up on the line to air, do the smell test, if it's fresh as a daisy wear it again. I usually get about four days' wear out of them, before they go in the wash basket.

Don't wash them with your whites, they'll fluff all over them!  We wash ours in the last of the sequential lots that go in our twin tub, with the dirty farm gear.

I hope they aren't too small for you; they are the smallest size Brett and I can wear, we usually go one size larger but they were out of that size that day. So I hope you don't have yeti feet! 

When Brett and I first tried these socks two years ago, we couldn't get over how comfortable they were. They're so oooh-aaah to put on and wear. We hardly wear any other types of socks anymore. Brett even wears them in his office shoes, and with bamboo socks, gets away with it!


And now it really is Zzzzzzzzzzz time in Aussieland. ;-)


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## Hondo

@SueC Being proactive, I believe, is fundamental to good health care.

I had all my lab reports and at some point decided to become involved. A volunteer at nearby Davis Medical Center xeroxed a portion of an oncology textbook on determining the type of cancer I had. There was one blastula in my labs that should not and could not be there.

I finally cornered my oncologist with my lab reports in one hand and the xerox in the other. When he finally saw what I was talking about, he said, " I guess we won't know for sure unless we have the slides read by Stanford". Whoopee. I could not do that without his recommendation.

So you might say, I diagnosed my own cancer based on the lab reports.

Some people have asked, did you think about suing? Hello no!! Didn't have time for that. Never entered my mind.


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## gottatrot

Your story is amazing, @Hondo.

Yes, you are right, I am describing what happens when you need treatment for something in a hospital without insurance, versus what happens if you go in to a clinic for routine care without insurance. In that case, the insured get very preferential treatment.
Without insurance, you head to the Emergency room for routine care so you can get seen. Hiccups, sore throats, hangnails. Then you don't pay the bill, because it is expensive, because of all the other people who do the same thing.

That is only one reason why our health care is so expensive. Besides the fact that the insurance companies can raise their prices without restriction, a huge reason is because of all the people who sue in this country. I've read that in Australia and other countries, doctors do a lot less expensive testing such as CT scans and MRIs. Here doctors have told me they must do lots of unnecessary tests. Let's say a child comes in with a fever, it is almost certain that the child has a virus or minor infection. But if a child came in later with bacterial meningitis, or heaven forbid died from the meningitis, the doctor would be sued and most likely run down on the news when the family publicly said how the doctor missed meningitis. So tons and tons of babies are subjected to spinal taps.
It is the same with someone bonking their head. Many doctors will routinely do a CT scan because if one rare person later on gets a brain bleed, they will sue the doctor for missing it. 

And even if you tell us you ate forty slices of pepperoni and doused it with tabasco sauce, then had chest pain for 10 minutes that went away when you belched, you'll have a lengthy and expensive stay in the hospital because once upon a time someone's family sued when a doctor sent them home after indigestion and they dropped dead of a heart attack.


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## Hondo

@SueC I am a total bamboo sock convertee! And the fit is perfect. Just put them on and pulled on my boots to go put out some feed. There's a lot of grass but the horses are starting to want some hay too. The boots slip on so nicely over them and they feel soooo good. And they have no tendency to ride down the boot as some socks to with pull on boots.

@gottatrot I totally get it, and have for a while. It seems that one part of the problem is that people without insurance or up front money are not required to be seen by tax supported institutions unless it is an emergency. It seems if the requirement to see them in non emergency situations was extended to walk in clinics or whatever the thousands and millions of dollars for emergency services could be largely avoided. But that said, I don't even quite qualify as a layman in this area.


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## Hondo

The bamboo diabetic socks for Hondo's boots are due to be delivered tomorrow. Small problem. The UPS delivery did not make it today due to high water. And at the moment, I doubt I could get out and down to the mailbox due to the water in Minnihaha anyhow. Plus, there is no longer any deep dry sand available in these parts for testing the socks. 

The dry spell has either ended or encountered an interlude.

The main bright point is the grass should take off growing now.

I hollered across the creek at Hondo. He stopped grazing. Wonder what he's hollering about. Went back to grazing.


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## Hondo

@SueC I really liked the graying nomads sign. I'm going to save it to use when I get older.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> @*SueC* I really liked the graying nomads sign. I'm going to save it to use when I get older.


I like that too!  Could put one on our front gate for our Romeo. ;-)

The funniest sign we've ever seen was in the North Stirlings an hour from us, at a roadhouse. It was big and out on the roadside and said, "Nudists Crossing". See below.










It's even made it into Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelup,_Western_Australia

You were asking if the strings would irritate the horse eyes. It acts like a big fringe so the horse can shake its head to get rid of flies. It's what we had in Australia prior to the synthetic screen masks. I find I can't ride in those masks because the horse gets sweaty and it does actually compromise the horse's vision too much for tearing around the bush. The string veil is better for that purpose. The main thing is not the get the string ends at eye level, but well below that when you hang it, so it doesn't irritate.

I've no idea what sorts of flies you have in the US. Here, the bush flies in early summer are the worst thing (and then dung beetles hatch out and interrupt the fly life cycles and we're rid of most of them for the rest of the season), they are the size of small house flies and just love to sit at the edges of the eyes and anywhere moist, and start drinking. They also crawl up noses. They are so hard to shake off and there are so many of them.

It explains the stereotypical bush hat with corks on strings. As a kid I was so sick of the bush flies I took to wearing a string veil around the farm myself by tying it around my head! But it also makes a good decoration.

Oh, and my late Arabian mare wore that one (and others) as a young'un before modern fly veils were invented. Not riding because she outran the flies then. But if you're perambulating, you might have nuisance flies, so I thought there was a chance it could be useful to you! 

PS: Brett says that when he turns 70, he's going to buy a walking stick and he's going to wave it around and say "You young people today!" in a quavery voice. He says he's looking forward to that. He'll be 45 next week, and one of the upshots of a certain shopping excursion was that I went back the following week to get some things for him there too!  Like an Aussie barometer:


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## bsms

I had military health care. I had a kidney stone surgically removed because it was cheaper than the then slightly new use of sound to break up kidney stones. A friend who worked in anesthesia in the military got out because, he said, he'd be too far behind the times if he stayed in any longer. I went three years without blood pressure medicine because diovan works for me, but micardis didn't. But the diovan was more expensive so they insisted on providing me the ineffective micardis - so I just stopped. When diovan went generic, they suddenly decided I could get it!

I get skin cancer checks - a few cancerous moles removed so far - every 6 months. I have to renew my referral every 6 months because the military won't give me a long term referral. The last time, the doctor found a cancerous mole. Confirmed with lab. It took me a month to get a referral to have it removed. I was told I needed a PA to review the medical doctor's recommendation (including the biopsy from the lab). That was going to take 3 months on a waiting list. When I suggested my congressman might be interested in the run-around I was getting, they provided a referral without being seen in 12 hours!

It was basal cell carcinoma, which is pretty low risk. But just what was a PA sitting in an office going to do that a full MD with biopsy results couldn't? Tell me I couldn't get the mole removed? IIRC, the total charge for removal was only about $150...

I don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure something is broken. :evil:


----------



## Hondo

@bsms I've had three basals removed so far. Doc's got a good eye. Every time he decides to biopsy, it turns out malignant. I was under 3 hours for one on my lip. Part of that was waiting on the lab to see if they got it all.

@SueC Well shoot. I can't, or haven't found it. I'm short on electricity with the rain and need to turn on transformer to access external hard drive.

Anyhow, I was riding around, on a motorcycle, somewhere up in the mountains near Rico, CO. I had a GPS but was having trouble figuring out the best route to get back to camp. A lady whose cabin I was parked outside of must have surmised I was having difficulty if not completely lost.

She said you go down this road and watch on your right and there will be a fairly large road with a large sign over it that reads, Happiness Is a Shack Up In The Woods. Don't know what my expression was but she followed through with, "I didn't put the sign there but that's what it says".

I thanked her and soon I saw a thick slab about 4 inches thick, 2 foot wide, and about 20 feet long mounted securely high above the road I was to take. The sign was engraved and pretty nicely done.

Someone had time on their hands.

I'm 76 and don't own a cane........yet.


----------



## SueC

@Hondo, I'm confused about what you can't do/find because of the electrical situation, but am assuming it limits some of the things you can see here, and you're using a more text-only mode??? (maybe I'm way off track)

Anyways, Brett wishes to have a cane, not for leaning on at that point, he hopes, but simply to wave it around and say "You young people today!" in a quavery voice. _That_ is why he wants a cane, and he is hoping that at age 70 he will be able to get away with that little exercise in putting on a stereotypical persona for fun. He already does the quavery voice for "You young people today!" very well, but he's been practicing a lot - all the years I've known him! :rofl:


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## Hondo

The stuff running on AC requires I turn on this transformer that eats a lot of juice. Generator is being fussy and don't want to fool with it.


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## AnitaAnne

@Hondo the more I read about your abode, the more I am curious about how and what you live in. Bits and pieces of information come out in some of your posts, but a picture and description would maybe clear up the mystery...


----------



## SueC

I second AnitaAnne's suggestion because, like her, I am very nosy! 

By the way, if you want to be able to tell whether the Kelpie or Border Collie is predominant in Roman, here's a simple, no-cost test that doesn't require DNA samples etc.

In Australia, it is said that a Border Collie is obsessed about riding in the back of the farm ute (ute=utility vehicle, pickup truck). The Kelpie loves that too; however, what it really wants is to _drive_ the ute.

Our dog is mostly Kelpie! :rofl: She even barks in disgust every time we have to slow down over the railway crossing, until we are up to a speed she considers acceptable again. Right now, she's just outside the window in the garden, crunching on a half-decomposed kangaroo backbone she has dragged in from the bush somewhere. And then she'll want to come in and give me a kiss, eeeeeeeeeeeek. I don't kiss dogs. Cuddle yes, kiss no. Ptoooi. Especially with rotten kangaroo breath!


----------



## Hondo

I live in an RV type that is called a FunMover. Same as a Toyhauler trailer except it is a truck with living in the front and M/C's or ATV's in the back. Mine used to have motorcycles in the back but has become repurposed as a tack room. It has all the necessary amenities.

I towed a full sized pickup truck behind that during my travels.

Now that I have ended my travels, except on Hondo, for the last four years, two 10x20 outbuildings have been added for storage of an amazing amount of stuff collected in only four years.

And I have fenced off about 1/2 acre to contain the dogs which doubles as horse pens and my yard such as it is.

There is a good well the riding club put in about 1/4 mile away with lines coming to with in about 300 feet of my place. I installed water lines so I have running water. Nice! I do have to take the generator to the 2,000 gallon storage tank and pump it full periodically.

There are 3 single gates and 3 double gates build by me with my welder. I've added a horse trailer. Also a 20x20 shade under a large shade tree.

You might say I've dug myself in pretty well here. It was nothing but brush when I started. It's 1.5 miles from the nearest house with a locked swinging gate at the road which is about 1/4 mile from my abode.

The ranch has around 5,000 acres of deeded property and another 23,000 acres of BLM and State property for grazing. The ranch is surrounded by by more state and BLM plus many thousands of acres of National Forest starting about two miles to the East.

I began paying a small amount in rent at my insistence because I wanted any work I did to be on a voluntary basis. Now that the ranch has gone to helicopter roundups, I do very little with the ranch. Some road maintenance with the bulldozer which I enjoy but nothing more than that for some time now. The rule has always been that my volunteering has to be stuff I enjoy.

It is not easy to find a situation as I am in and I feel very lucky.

The truck is very much on the order of phantom's "Jefferson", except there's no room for Hondo.


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## SueC

That sounds like a very workable arrangement, @Hondo!

Is there a story of how you ended up settling in that particular place?

By the way, I found something you and your HF visitors may find enjoyable. 






Click the direct YouTube link if the embedded version goes on strike!


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## Hondo

Pictures........


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## SueC

Ooooh! That's super!  My nose is very happy!


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## Hondo

@SueC Those types of videos really show what an incredible animal the horse really is.


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## SueC

Yes, don't they just?  I swear that horse has a sense of humour...


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## gottatrot

SueC said:


> In Australia, it is said that a Border Collie is obsessed about riding in the back of the farm ute (ute=utility vehicle, pickup truck). The Kelpie loves that too; however, what it really wants is to _drive_ the ute.
> 
> Our dog is mostly Kelpie! :rofl: She even barks in disgust every time we have to slow down over the railway crossing, until we are up to a speed she considers acceptable again.


That is funny. When we drive the mini horse carts, the other dogs run alongside, but if I put my Papillon down he gets really mad. He's supposed to be inside the cart driving the horses, not running alongside. 
@Hondo, I envy your endless miles of riding land. Seems like a nice setup.


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## Hondo

Whew! Long day. After the horses came in for snacks this morning I realized it was early, cool, with no rain in the immediate future. I went for a two hour loop yesterday and had planned to go to town today. Since it was cool, why couldn't I ride first and then go to town. So that's what I did. And got in a little more rock raking on the new trail connection I'm working on.

Funny, on the way out, Hondo stopped so quickly it threw me forward a little. "A Cottonwood branch on the ground". Well, there's lots of those in the pasture so what's the big deal I wondered. Hondo DEMANDED eating some bark. And not just a little. Six inch diameter, open jaws wide and strip of a piece half way around and 8 inches long. Chew up and swallow. More. More. More. I began to be afraid that too much without some grass in between might not be good. He probably knew better but I pulled him off finally.

Made me think about the Koalas and why they want to eat this particular leaf but not another. Must be the minerals around the root to that particular morsel. 

Anyhow, had a good 3-4 hour work/ride. I was almost wishing Hondo was barn sour on the way home as i still needed to clean up and make a 100 mi round trip to town. The rain has sprouted up the native vegetation he has been missing and I of course did not have the heart to make him pass it up.

Having running water is nice for blasting the mud off the boots before removing them. The insides were pretty clean. Wet sand doesn't seem to infiltrate like dry sand.

So got some hay, pellets, cedar shavings (for me), and a bunch of expensive Silk. I've given up milk.

Was on the phone with UPS all day updating my location and we were able to meet. I got my stuff and other stuff for the ranch.

Delivery in these parts can be sporadic during inclement weather.

Got everything unloaded, horses are outside enjoying some hay together. Had to take the little motorcycle and run 6 cows out of the pasture. They'll be back by morning. Gives me something to do. I've named one Mary Lou.

Which reminds me. @SueC said that she did not send me clippings of Mary Lou's hair for fear the dog sniffers would find it. Made me wonder. I know some of the things hair is tested for. What would the dogs be smelling for?? Is Mary Lu using?? She did look a little euphoric in her picture


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## SueC

Well, you see, @Hondo, live biological things aren't supposed to get through customs. This does not include plum sauce because that's sterile (although sometimes they don't believe it if it's home made), but Mary Lou's hair is probably crawling with little critters like red-legged earth mites and other minuscule insect fauna (of the non-parasitic kind, of course), and certainly it harbours live seeds, like clover burrs, and I didn't think customs would want any of that, and justifiably so, for quarantine and biosecurity reasons. And donkey hair has a smell that dogs would certainly have picked up! :rofl:

The dried leaves were borderline, but they smell great, and hey, kids from all over the world send each other pressed flowers all the time. ;-) I doubt any hidden critters in the leaves will emigrate from your abode and invade the commercial eucalyptus plantations of the United States! ;-)

What's Mary Lou on? I'm trying to figure that out myself. Maybe she needs a head-cam installed for a while! :rofl:

But would you like to speculate what this _goat_ is on?


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## Hondo

@SueC Do you happen to have a picture of a horse wearing the string fly thing?


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> The dried leaves were borderline, but they smell great, and hey, kids from all over the world send each other pressed flowers all the time. ;-) I doubt any hidden critters in the leaves will emigrate from your abode and invade the commercial eucalyptus plantations of the United States! ;-)


Hmmm...........What about feathers?


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## SueC

They have been indoors for so long that it's unlikely anything is still living on them!  They weren't freshly plucked or anything. ;-)

I found two photos of the French mare wearing the string veil (it's got some history!):









http://www.coulstock.id.au/photos/SET01_Dame_du_Buisson_Mingo_Kargre_Jasman_Waroona_01.jpg









http://www.coulstock.id.au/photos/SET01_Dame_du_Buisson_Mingo_Kargre_Jasman_Waroona_02.jpg

Click the photos, and then click _again_, to see up close.

You just tie it to the halter at the correct height, about browband height. You may even be able to attach it to a riding browband in several places if you want it for riding.

Hope that's helpful!


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## Hondo

Ok thanks. Wasn't sure if the strings went below the eyes. I see how it works. We don't really have much problem around here with insects around the eyes. It's the ears that are really a problem. This little yellow blood sucker gets on the ears and really irritates.

I have a full face mask with ears I use at times but may get one with ears only. The little yellow flies also like to get n the chest and front legs.


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## SueC

If you don't need it for fly duty, it can make a nice decoration, and you can remember that my very first horse wore it! 

Those ear flies sound shocking, we don't have that here, thankfully...

Hope you have a lovely day and that your solar is improving!


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## AnitaAnne

@Hondo thank you for clearing up the mystery of your abode! You are living tiny


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> you can remember that my very first horse wore it!


Whaaaat? You mean it's used? Second hand? Hand me down? Has it been checked for Coggins?

JK of course. If your first horse actually wore this one, that does make it special. Or was it one like this?


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> Is there a story of how you ended up settling in that particular place?


Well, yes there is. But I wouldn't know where to start. The kick off was when I entered remission from cancer, and then ended with real live western cattle rustlers, a sick calf, and a long lost historical trail, a need for a rider sitting on a horse over there so the cows don't go over there, preceded by 6 years of riding M/C's in the larger surrounding area, including the ranch, and a desire for a horse.

I could write several pages of the cattle rustling episode alone I stumbled upon which was one of two main catalyst that got my foot into the door I wished to enter.

Six months later the second generation 86 year old passed and I led Hondo carrying his saddle with backward pointing boots to the outdoor remembrance. Hondo was not mine at the time but I was riding him on roundups.

I could write a small short story of how I got here and the happening since I've been here. And also before. Not long ago, 1988, there was even a gunfight that left three people injured and one dead.

Hey, it's the wild wild west out here. Don't need movies about it anymore!


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## Knave

That sounds like quite the story!


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## SueC

AnitaAnne said:


> @*Hondo* thank you for clearing up the mystery of your abode! You are living tiny


And big, at the same time! 



Hondo said:


> Whaaaat? You mean it's used? Second hand? Hand me down? Has it been checked for Coggins?


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Well, it was freshly laundered around five years ago before being put in the miscellaneous tack kit! ;-)




> If your first horse actually wore this one, that does make it special. Or was it one like this?


From what I remember, the black horse had a green one, the mare had a white one; I don't remember what the others had. I'm pretty sure this was her string veil, but I'd have to look through the stored museum stuff at my parents' house to be sure. If they have other white string veils hidden away, then I wouldn't be so sure anymore, but I'm pretty certain we had different colours for different horses, and hers was definitely that colour! And at the time of the string veils there were a maximum of five horses. So even if I have amnesia and there were four white string veils, that makes it an at least 50% chance that either the French mare or my Arabian young'un at the time wore it.

If I had to bet I'd say it was the French mare's; she died within a year of when that photo was taken (I think she was already pregnant in the photo) and her veil would not have been passed on to any other horse - whereas the surviving horses' string veils would have been worn until they dropped to pieces, and then replaced with the net veils that were just starting to be made.

I didn't know if you had eye-sucking bush flies in your part of the world too, but it you did, then a string veil is useful for a perambulating horse. Sunsmart usually outruns the flies when riding, and doesn't want to wear any kind of veil when riding.

I have the French mare's great-grandson in Sunsmart, so I think it's OK that you have her string veil!  I still have her old bridle and brow band and everything.

:cowboy:


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> I could write several pages of the cattle rustling episode alone I stumbled upon which was one of two main catalyst that got my foot into the door I wished to enter...
> 
> I could write a small short story of how I got here and the happening since I've been here. And also before. Not long ago, 1988, there was even a gunfight that left three people injured and one dead.
> 
> Hey, it's the wild wild west out here. Don't need movies about it anymore!


If you ever feel like telling these stories, I'm sure you'd have a fascinated audience and you'd be able to hear a pin drop around this imaginary campfire.










In Australia we call this "yarning around the campfire". Yarning is an Australianism for storytelling, which alludes to spinning longer and longer threads as the evening goes on.

You even have clapsticks to use to make it authentic! ;-)

Brett now has a didgeridoo, but he doesn't know it yet because his birthday isn't until Tuesday. :rofl: But after Tuesday, he can start trying to make some snorting noises into his didj! 

When people get really good, it sounds like this:






 Another little snippet of Australian culture. ;-)


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## Knave

I was thinking of you this morning while I velcroed Bones’s tennis shoes on.


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## Hondo

Knave said:


> I was thinking of you this morning while I velcroed Bones’s tennis shoes on.


Hoping it wasn't anything too too bad!  I'm using some double D-ring buckles now that are holding pretty well. Hate that Velcro as it doesn't seem to hold up for me, except the top one.

Roman met a Gila Monster today. Fortunately he did not advance enough to get bitten. Once when the Gila Monster made a small lunge, Hondo jumped backward and a little sideways. Decided it was time to leave. Took some persuasion but Roman came along.

Did a little more work on my trail connection. Hondo stopped at his very special Cottonwood branch to nibble both coming and going. Almost never got back as Hondo is so excited about all the green native stuff popping up after the rain.


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## Knave

Lol. No, it wasn’t negative at all.  The Velcro works well on my boots, the cavallo treks, but I do hate how the Velcro fills with those grass seeds. I’ve been running a curry comb over them to pull them out, but the cleaning takes forever.


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## Hondo

Oh good. I'm the sensitive type

Yep. Foxtails take forever to clean out. Way back when I got my first pair, Renegade said the customers that used compressed air to blow them out had the best luck.

If it was only the seeds I'd try that now that I do have compressed air which i did not at that time. But with the brush and rocks we walk through, the lower straps just take a beating whether there are seeds or not. I did not want to go to a buckle wit a tongue and holes as the adjustment would not be continuous between the holes.

I have two sizes of metal D-rings and one size plastic D-ring I'm testing. Two sizes of poly straps and one size of nylon strap.

Not sure what I'll wind up with. But it'll probably be 3/4" wide strap on a 1" D-ring. The nylon work well but if left to dry on the buckle gets stiff and hard to work with because of the infiltrated dirt. The poly straps stay more limber but wear with abrasion, but will still last several rides.

Buying either size or type strap in bulk amounts to $0.25-30 cents per foot so replacement is cheap and simple. I double the strap around the pair of D-rings so there is no sewing or manufacturing. Just pull out a strip of webbing, cut to length with the pocket knife, apply and tighten.

With either setup, the boots need to be removed prior to loosening the captivator strap. But Renegade instructions say to do that anyhow. I've been getting them pretty tight and use a hoof pick on the captivator to pull them off. Being tight seems to keep more dirt out. Makes sense.

Just looked at the Cavallo Treks. Thought hmmm. What about a sock over the top to keep the seeds off the Velcro? That should work.


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## Knave

I think that is an idea I will try! Thank you.


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## SueC

Knave said:


> The Velcro works well on my boots, the cavallo treks, but I do hate how the Velcro fills with those grass seeds. I’ve been running a curry comb over them to pull them out, but the cleaning takes forever.


Velcro and grass seeds! :icon_rolleyes: We get such horrible spiky grass seeds in late spring / early summer, and then I have to totally avoid booting up if I'm going to ride through any pasture - tracks only in boots, barefoot rides only if pasture is in the mix.

Once I put a support wrap around a horse with a sprain, around the fetlock and cannon; in the pasture. It was a sort of furry-sided synthetic that otherwise felt like neoprene. It and all its velcro were studded with thousands of spiky grass seeds by the end of the day, and I still haven't got even half of them out years later. Shame about an otherwise nice pair of support wraps - one of them looks like a hedgehog now... :evil:

We humans have what we call "burr blockers" to slip over our socks and boots for that time of year - otherwise all the work socks will end up looking like that too - and of course it feels horrible to have even just one of these things stuck in your sock and scratching away at your skin!

PS _thought_: I wonder if one could put oversized soft rubber bell boots on and turn them up before booting, and then turn them down again, with the boot in place... sort of like human burr blockers...











Or actual human burr blockers...


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## Hondo

Looks like the burr blockers are all in Australia. I used to have a pair of hiking gators that served the same purpose. Don't know what I ever did with those. They worked well.

They would need to expand enough to go over the hoof. If using socks, I guess they would tend to pick up seeds also. Bell boots can be sort of hard to get on and off in cold weather.

Maybe some seed proof fabric with the quick release buckles? Then make more and sell them online?

Or what about some vet wrap and just throw it away after each ride? Could use duct tape but that'd be too messy and not look very good. But the vet wrap comes in a lot of colors.


----------



## Knave

I like the idea of the rubber boot, but I’d hate to add more diameter to his hoof. The reason I always have the leg boots on him is a tendency to brush, so keeping diameter as small as I can is a goal. I like the vet wrap idea too! I will try something different the next time I use the boots. 

I shouldn’t need them again until October though... I only use them for hard work days in the mountains. I happened to use them yesterday because I wasn’t expecting to go out into the hills and I had just trimmed him the day prior.


----------



## gottatrot

We have a new boarder at my barn who uses Cavallo Trek boots. I'm a bit out of date/haven't looked into boots lately, so had not seen these before. They were nice! So much less clunky than the old Cavallos. 
When I saw her putting boots on, I realized she wanted me to show her around the parts of the property that have lots of chunks of wood, so I put Renegades on Hero's fronts. She was so amazed that I was going to boot also, apparently where she used to board in California everyone puts shoes on.


----------



## Hondo

Since @Knave works cattle, I was a bit surprised that she would ever use boots. Absolutely nobody uses boots ever around here. Was told by one, "Only time I've seen them is at parades". hee


----------



## Knave

Hahahahaha. It’s out of necessity more than that I just out that much of an outlier. Bones brushes, as I said. There is a bit of a toe out in his legs. Anyways, I had shoes on him and he spooked and I wasn’t wearing brushing boots. Those were only for the arena when a horse would really be getting with it.

Well, in the spook he hit his front leg with the other and blew it up big. He was off for a bit, which is not good for him mentally. My vet misdiagnosed the leg, and I decided that I would try something different.

I pulled the shoes and trimmed him down to sole. I put the big roll on him and decided I’d let him be a barefoot horse. I slow motioned videoed him moving to see if I had stopped the brushing. With the combo of a brushing ring and time to heal, the leg went down. I have kept him barefoot ever since, and as a precaution I always ride with my cross country eventing boots. 

So yes, I am quite the sight. I get a lot of teasing, but that is all. Everyone has gotten used to him working in his tennies, and he never went lame since.


----------



## SueC

Knave said:


> Hahahahaha. It’s out of necessity _*more than that I just out that much of an outlier.*_


:rofl: Wonderful! :rofl:



> So yes, I am quite the sight. I get a lot of teasing, but that is all. Everyone has gotten used to him working in his tennies, and he never went lame since.


If it works, it works!  Romeo used to have to wear knee boots as a harness racing horse even though he is wide in the chest and all his legs are textbook. If things got rough in the race and he broke up and hit himself, he could do real damage, and once he did and it took many months for his injured knee to stop looking like a balloon. Always in knee boots after that, not for normal operation, but for those pressure and chaos situations.


----------



## Knave

I am all about what works @SueC! I have come to realize that we all have things against us, and that horses really are no different. Bones has a couple of fairly big things with the brushing, the little nut, and the self-mutilating. Lol. Now, he doesn’t brush when he is managed, and the self-mutilating is also minimized with management. 

I could have gotten something different; in fact I had a lot of pressure towards doing so. The thing is though, he is uber talented and so extremely kind. He also has been perfectly sound with the changes I made. I realize as I look around that most horses have something. Oh, maybe this one has bad tear ducts and needs a fly mask, or another needs legged up before being pushed because of a weakness. Some have corrective shoeing and some are supplemented. There are great horses who can’t be tied solid and others who are cinchy and need walked around for a minute. I’ve even seen horses petrified of needles like my littlest girl.

How many people also have something? I know I have my things... but even physical things. In the act of living we develop our weaknesses, both mentally and physically. I have a hip that dislocates, a floating vertabre in my neck, and a twisted one in my lower back. Even my kids have physical issues that will follow them into their lives. 

I think that, as we do with ourselves, we work with what we have. Oh, don’t get me wrong, I sold Keno because I couldn’t work with his issues. That happens too. However, we should be slow to give up on anyone. I may look the sight with my cavillo treks and ww leg boots, but I can definitely get my job done.


----------



## Dragoon

You have just written one of the best posts ever!
Thank you.


----------



## gottatrot

Dragoon said:


> You have just written one of the best posts ever!
> Thank you.


I agree! 
It can be a little unnerving to look at a new horse, because if you don't see any problems you wonder what the problem is going to be. 

There will be something. Every horse is too easy of a keeper, a real hard keeper, prone to injury, prone to beating up others, or prone to getting beat up. Gets out of fences, has frogs that shrivel up, paws, chews up stuff, rolls on rocks and puts his back out, attacks dogs, likes to eat poisonous plants, only drinks out of certain types of buckets, won't take medicine or wormer, thin soles, club hoof, hard to fit saddles to, thinks his ears are "private, no touchy," gets rubs from every girth, nose sunburns, etc, etc.

Sometimes the devil you know is easiest to deal with.


----------



## Knave

Thank you both!


----------



## Hondo

I'll consider myself thanked already too. Yes, Hondo has his share of imperfections. As do all four of my kids. And myself. I love them all anyhow. Love myself? Well, sometimes, sometimes not so much


----------



## Knave

Ooh, I hope I didn’t offend in some way. I wasn’t sure... I’m sorry.

I’m sure we all struggle with loving ourselves. I definitely do.


----------



## Hondo

I'm befuddled on how anything you said could offend anyone. I read slowly and thought long about your post. Sobering in some ways. I appreciated and concur with the other comments. True, so true.


----------



## Hondo

Today I decided to make some video on my way to the work site on the new connection trail for Minnihaha. And I did.

It's about 7 minutes long. The very first part is some nice smooth hard sand trails which there are a few miles of if I had continued straight. But I turned left to the beginning of my trail project.

Just as I approached Minnihaha Creek where Roman was in a pool of water, Hondo went on red alert. This was not a cow in the brush. I've been with him when we both saw a mountain lion and his intensity was similar. And it lasted to the trail project, my work period, and was still there on the return. So I'm sure it was a cat.

I figured we'd perambulate slowly one step at a time up the climb which includes what I call the staircase but Hondo had different ideas. "If I gotta turn my back on that, then let's go and get outta here!"

And so we did. Because of his nervousness I lost the trail which is marked only here and there with two-rock stacks. So I cut out the lost portion. Nothing missed for certain.

After we got to the work site, Hondo wanted to remain facing back toward the creek. Took him about 5 times as long to eat his 3 cups of oats as normal from looking and watching so intently.

Normally he will just face me and wait until I get 20-30 feet away when I go back and lead him up. Not today! Once he settled somewhat and was facing me, he did not want me to get more than 3-4 feet away. He stayed right on top of me.

I think it was the tennis shoe thing. He figured as small, weak, and slow as I was, if attacked he could run away free and the cat would get me.

Anyhow, after working an hour or so, I videoed the decent back into the creek. Hondo was very alert as we started down.


----------



## SueC

Hah, @*Hondo* ! That dog of yours is soooo like our dog. :loveshower: I'm not technologically advanced like you, filming off horseback etc, but I did recently do my first little photo tour on horseback, and have trail photos _with horse ears _from around our place here:

https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page55/#post1970559673

Compare dogs! :rofl:

Jess specifically asked me to say hello to you and Roman today, and says to tell you she is waving her right paw in your direction! 

If you want to laugh at my expense (go on, I did! ;-)) here's what happened recently when I did not listen to my horse, who frequently knows better:

https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page57/#post1970563855

I love how you and Hondo have an arrangement about ear fly removal! 

And I think he enjoys looking at views when he's out with you. My Arabian mare was always doing that whenever the view opened out like this! 

Thanks for taking us on your trails!


----------



## Hondo

SueC said:


> I love how you and Hondo have an arrangement about ear fly removal!
> 
> And I think he enjoys looking at views when he's out with you. My Arabian mare was always doing that whenever the view opened out like this!


I just recieved the tracking number for the Cashel Comfort Ears. Due in on the 25th. I have a full fly mask with ears but he doesn't need it at the moment. The biting flies on his ears drives him nuts and so it does me also.

Hondo is not just looking at the scenery. He was looking for a cat. He went on red alert at the creek crossing. And stayed on alert when we returned after an hour of trail work.

I'm sure there was a cat in the area. Yesterday there was a bunch of vultures perched in the trees in that vicinity. Roman disappeared into the brush and was reluctant to come out. Thought about dismounting and seeing if there were remains of a cat kill but, well, there were no mounting rocks in the area and it was getting hot.

Maybe tomorrow. With the rain Hondo is shedding retained sole so this morning I've got some trimming to do.


----------



## SueC

It was donkey trimming for me today, Don Quixote's turn. He has great feet, but I have to put Stockholm tar on the donkey hooves weekly this time of year because the rain is making the pasture soggy and this is bad for dry country origin animals - they are so vulnerable to rot. Thank goodness for Stockholm tar.

Does is _ever_ get soggy where you live?

It had totally slipped my mind that you have large cats over there. I knew about bears (but imagine they're more northern, forest/woodland-associated animals?). Do these large cats ever attack large herbivores? Are they an actual danger to a horse and rider?

We don't have any large predators in Australia, besides crocodiles up north...


----------



## gottatrot

SueC said:


> We don't have any large predators in Australia, besides crocodiles up north...


I almost think the Cassowary should be classified as a predator. We saw them at the Perth zoo and they were impressive.











> A guy from Western Australia visiting Queensland saw a cassowary and was watching a photographer taking photos of the bird, the next thing he knew he was rolling down the cliff. He has come away from this “adventure” with a torn shirt, and a bruised backside. The tourists doesn’t know why the bird chose him, he was there with his family. After he stopped at the bottom of the hill and landed in water, the cassowary looked over the edge at him, and then ran off into the rainforest.


https://magsx2.wordpress.com/2012/05/02/cassowary-pushes-man-off-cliff-australia/


----------



## Hondo

I've never heard of a cat attacking a horse and rider, but they will and do certainly get a few young calves. And deer I would think also. If there were wild horses I suppose they'd get a few of those young.

It's pretty dry here most of the year. There are extended rainy spells and particularly in July when the monsoons come in. I'd have been embarrassed for any knowing person to have seen Hondo's hooves before the trim. Most of the dead sole had sloughed off leaving rather long overgrown hoof walls.

I have seen bear tracks a few times but they mostly are just moving through. None hang around as far as I know.

I monitor the bottom of the horse's feet in both dry and wet weather and periodically add a bit of Thrush Buster in vulnerable areas as a proactive defense. The ground is wet now so it's time to watch for signs of thrush. I run an tiny abscess loop knife down the collateral groove to keep it opened up and also the frog sulcus. 

Do you put the tar on the bottom of the hooves?


----------



## SueC

Yeah, particularly into any crevices and around the frog. I use a 1 1/2 inch paintbrush to do it, and really rub it in. It's got a water repelling action as well as great antimicrobial qualities. I don't know if you ever had that toothpaste ad in the US about "just like the liquid gets into a piece of chalk" but I find it interesting that I can smell the pine tar again up to three weeks after last application when I am rasping or paring at the next trim. Scratch the surface, and you can smell it. Like a scratch-and-sniff!  Also, pine tar is used in dermatological preparations for exzema in humans, so I'm not worried about toxicity. In continental Europe when I started riding, it was everywhere - stalled horses tend to get manure stuck in their hooves etc.


----------



## Hondo

Tar on the bottom of a horse's foot was just not sounding good to me. But before launching into a debate I Googled. Now my plans are to purchase some pine tar soap.

Is the Stockholm tar supposed to be better than just pine tar?


----------



## SueC

Well, Stockholm tar is a type of pine tar. I think they are synonyms, really!

Do you want the soap for yourself? I used it successfully for skin rashes in my 20s.


----------



## Hondo

Thought of it as just something new to try. Pine tar turns out to be an ingredient in many soaps, or so says the internet.


----------



## phantomhorse13

SueC said:


> We don't have any large predators in Australia, besides crocodiles up north...



Because just about every small thing there is deadly instead!! :rofl:



@Hondo : I always enjoy seeing views of your trails. one day, when I win the lottery, I will get down there to ride with you!


----------



## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> Because just about every small thing there is deadly instead!! :rofl:
> 
> 
> 
> @Hondo : I always enjoy seeing views of your trails. one day, when I win the lottery, I will get down there to ride with you!


Funny about the small critters

That'd be great far a visit. Roman, Hondo, and I are the only ones that have seen some of these trails for nearly 100 years. I just wish I had someone to keep Hondo company while I go out of sight. The trail makes a significant fork and I'm not sure which would be the best for my eventual destination. Just pick the best looking and cut enough stuff to get Hondo through and if it turns bad, go back to the other.

I had no intention of working on this trail til fall but the possibilities are so tantalizing. Don't know why I am drawn to these old abandoned trails but I have been since pre ad early teens. I think it may have been all the Jack London books and short stories.

Weather has turned hot and humid so I don't know how much work I'll get done for a while. Out yesterday and by 8 AM I was soaked from just doing light work.

They say us oldsters need to be careful about overheating. Good excuse huh?


----------



## SueC

phantomhorse13 said:


> Because just about every small thing there is deadly instead!! :rofl:


I don't know how you get that impression!  Seriously! Is the media making booo-booo documentaries about Australian insects, spiders, other little critters where you live?

Here's a little snippet:

_There have been no confirmed deaths from spider bites in Australia since 1979, while falling out of bed (a sub-category of falling deaths shown in the chart) killed 523 people between 2007 and 2016._

This hails from an interesting little piece on fear versus risk from our ABC here:

How your worst fears stack up against reality - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

If you do pick three things off the list that you think are dangerous, it will tell you how they compare to the actual death statistics for a recent decade in Australia. Will you pick the right three? ;-) Then you can compare how the creepie-crawlies go in those statistics.


----------



## bsms

Here's how many people died from each of your biggest fears between 2007 and 2016:

Skin cancer (19,839)

Shark attack (21)

Crocodiles (15)​ 
They didn't have a category for rampaging, wild-eyed brumbies.


----------



## knightrider

They didn't have a category for black bears, which is the one thing I am afraid of. So I looked it up, and about one person a year is killed by a black bear. They said I'd have a much greater chance of being murdered than being attacked by a black bear. That's sort of nice to know, I guess. I'll try not to be so worried about seeing bears. I love seeing bears when I'm on the other side of some barrier, but oh, I hate seeing them when I am out on my horse. They are so big and aggressive looking!


----------



## SueC

bsms said:


> Here's how many people died from each of your biggest fears between 2007 and 2016:
> 
> Skin cancer (19,839)
> 
> Shark attack (21)
> 
> Crocodiles (15)​
> They didn't have a category for rampaging, wild-eyed brumbies.


:rofl:

Do you notice how dangerous Australian _beds_ are? More dangerous than spiders, snakes or crocodiles. Be _very_ afraid!  :hide:

Since so many people die falling out of them, there really is a case to be made for wearing a crash helmet to bed... instead of an Akubra...

mg:


----------



## Hondo

I'd like to see the particulars of the statistics of the causes of falling out of bed deaths. Like, was actual cause of death a heart attack and they fell out of bed while thrashing around? How high were the beds? Were any of the deaths actually from head injuries? Were any of the beds located in the popular tree houses? Were they mountain climbing and forgot to secure their sleeping bag?

Sometimes statistics can be very misleading when basically unrelated causes or events are grouped together forming the same statistic.

I'm here and wanting to know more..........


----------



## SueC

:rofl: These are such excellent questions! 

Brett and I were actually dying to know how many of those fatalities fell from the top level of a bunk bed.

We're pretty sure that heart attacks deaths that fell out of bed are not included in the statistics; they do post-mortem these sorts of cases and if it looks like a heart attack, it goes down as one. Brett does think that many of the people in the falling-out-of-bed-mortality statistics would be elderly and frail and therefore more susceptible to traumatic injuries.

I don't think Australian beds are any higher than most Western beds. I would really like to compare the statistics on this form of death (however compounded) with the Japanese statistics. Futons are so much lower to the ground. Maybe @*bsms* has statistics on this already? He is excellent at hunting down statistics...


----------



## Hondo

When offered a spot on a clinical trials, I was presented with the results of a previous trials involving 18 people. When I elected to accept the offer, the nurse for the oncologist at SF Medical Center said the doctor would like to know why I did not want to go through with the bone marrow replacement, which was his specialty.

I told the nurse it was because the trials had 100% remission. She replied, "No it doesn't, it has a lower overall remission than the bone marrow replacement."

I suggested she look at the description of the sub categories describing the patients in each sub group. The one I fit into had four people and all had reached remission.

She said something like, "Oh, I see what you mean. I'll tell the doctor."

When you've gone through death counseling, one begins to read the fine print


----------



## SueC

And we're very glad you did! :happydance:


----------



## Hondo

Thanks, but my main point, other than doing the senior citizen thing of incessantly talking about ailments both past and present, was that behind the one or two digits we are presented with in statistics often lies a wealth of information that at times can be of vital importance.


----------



## SueC

Oh yes, we got that point and very true, but to us the main point is that a friend isn't six feet under!  Instead he is looking after Hondo and Roman and making interesting journal entries.

I wonder how many of the crocodile deaths were trying to feed or pat the crocodile...

I do know that the majority of snakebites happen when people are trying to kill a snake (about 70% when _Dangerous Australians_ went to press).

The hidden stories are fascinating, and give rise to many Darwin awards. :rofl:










Darwin Awards. Chlorinating The Gene Pool.

Did I tell you about my arthritic finger joints recently? ;-)


----------



## Hondo

I'll have to say that I do feel somewhat for some of the Darwin Award recipients for I, at times, have purposely skated perilously close to the edge of that award myself! Perhaps I'll finally make it in with my four wheel horse drawn cart that detaches at an impromptu time.


https://media.giphy.com/media/FhBGgrjBkhwBO/giphy.gif


----------



## SueC

mg: ...what is that guy doing????


----------



## Knave

Hahahaha! Possibly ruining his horse spinning a Brodie!


----------



## Hondo

SueC said:


> mg: ...what is that guy doing????


Trying for an award obviously!


----------



## SueC

Only his horse could end up collateral damage, and I doubt it was the horse's idea somehow! :shock:

What would poetic justice look like here?


----------



## SueC

PS @Knave, Aussies call those doughnuts in cars _circle work_...


----------



## Hondo

@SueC Even though fully clothed, one must still appreciate the skill of the driver And the skill and training of the horse. The driver obviously knows his horse very well and his horse him. I would not imagine there are many horses, or drivers, that could pull that off without collateral damage of some kind.

I'd personally be interested in knowing something about that driver. Might be a story there?

Where I was raised, donuts are made by motorcycles and brodies by cars.


----------



## Hondo

Another contender for the Darwin Award.......

The dog may also be trying for one............

https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/ShallowTastyAntipodesgreenparakeet


----------



## Hondo

And then there's Amish Skiing. Gotta watch those poles!

https://funnyjunk.com/funny_gifs/1534905/Amish/


----------



## knightrider

Here's a semi Darwin for you: at Doe Lake where we camp with the horses, we encounter a lot of black bears. I am so scared of them, and everyone tells me "pooh pooh, they just run from you--you are a big chicken--nothing to be scared of, blah blah . . . " My friend, thinking the bear would just run, rode up to one aggressively, expecting the bear to take off. Instead, the bear rose up on its hind legs, and came after her on her horse. She took off running for home, and the bear took off running after her. After a bit of a chase, the bear gave up. My friend will never go up to a black bear again on her horse. She leaves them alone (like I do). 

I have read . . . and been told . . . that a black bear mama will not even attack if separated from her cubs (a grizzly will), but you won't find me checking to see if that is so.


----------



## Knave

I would be scared too @knightrider! I’ve never been around bears though, so I would just keep my distance. Since my horses have never been around bears we might be doing good to keep our distance, we might have a terrible run away! Lol


----------



## Hondo

Speaking of collateral damage to horses, I just read this morning that Justify has already been retired as a two year old due to a swollen ankle. Wonder what could've caused that??


----------



## Hondo

Deep thought...........


"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."


----------



## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> Speaking of collateral damage to horses, I just read this morning that Justify has already been retired as a two year old due to a swollen ankle. Wonder what could've caused that??


Oh no, he is THREE.

So that makes is ok, right?! :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## greentree

Hondo said:


> Speaking of collateral damage to horses, I just read this morning that Justify has already been retired as a two year old due to a swollen ankle. Wonder what could've caused that??


He could hardly walk after the Derby.....my wondering is what they did to get him through the next two!


----------



## SueC

Brett has a little message for you on a recent topic, but says you probably already heard it:

_Lies, **** lies, and statistics._

He offers therefore:

_Lies, **** lies, statistics and weather forecasts_.


----------



## Hondo

My mistake. Justify never raced as a two year old. Sure, that makes it ok to blow out tender joints at three. NOT!


----------



## AnitaAnne

The things humans do to their poor horses :frown_color:


----------



## Dragoon

Betcha the ankle is just fine...and the real problem is having multiple owners not all in agreement about risking damaging him. He has a guaranteed future as a breeder already. Which is arguably why you race your stock, since they make more money breeding than racing. They can do it longer. 
I also read it was extremely difficult to get insurance for future races, as the breeding rights belonged to different people than the owners rights...lotsa red tape. 
It just sounds better to say 'we are retiring him for his benefit' instead of 'we can get more money with less risk this way'. Just MHO. No matter. Their horse...their business. Off he goes to be a pampered celebrity!


----------



## Hondo

UPS noticed me that 4 Liters of Skin So Soft Original are being delivered today. Just in time as I finished off my third and last 1 Liter bottle this morning after our ride.

I have tried almost everything under the sun for Hondo's allergies to culicoides, even prescription medications. And I'll have to freely admit that I silently and privately pooh poohed suggestions for Skin So Soft.

It really doesn't do much for regular flies, out here anyway, but Hondo has been rubbing his mane and tail head very very little. And adding it to his midline has resulted in the hair growing out on his hocks where he rubbed his belly.

Stuff works for the midges we have here! Mane grows about 1.5 inches per month so it'll be a while before it's fully grown but it is a lot longer now than I have ever seen it.


----------



## Hondo

@SueC You asked me in another thread, I've forgotten which, if I had taught and if so what.

I taught mostly high school math. Two years I taught one class of physics and one year one class of chemistry.

I taught for only seven years, in Colorado, California, and Arkansas.

Teaching was never a goal or ambition for me but rather something I stumbled or tripped into.

That said, helping young people to learn and understand stuff they wanted to learn and understand was one of, if not the most, rewarding and enjoyable things I have ever done.

On the other hand, attempting to persuade other students to learn and understand things they had no interest in at the time, just began to be too difficult for me and my personal makeup.

When I left teaching I bought a brand new bulldozer and made my living with that.....for a few years.


----------



## SueC

I think pretty much everyone who has taught will feel what you're saying about it, @Hondo!  I tended not to hang at places where education was not appreciated, and therefore had lots of great experiences. It's quite interesting how many people on HF have taught at school or university or in some other setting. And how many that haven't are in nursing or veterinary nursing. Care bears! Haha. 

Did you enjoy your physics curriculum? Was there anything fun on it, like optics, astrophysics, the whole colour and light thing? I mean, Newton is very useful, but not quite as snazzy as some of the other stuff...


----------



## Hondo

I had sort of noticed there seemed to be an above average of past teachers and nurses and animal care people on HF but had not connected the dots. Care bears may be it and may be part of the draw for horses. They certainly demand a bit of care in their mostly unnatural environments.

I enjoyed and enjoy all aspects of physics. It's a curiosity of how things work. Newton was great. Born on my birthday. Einstein has many people standing on his shoulders. To me, he was such a clear thinker in areas other that physics.

My favorite quote of his is: Education is what remains after you've forgotten everything you've learned.


----------



## SueC

Oh, that's amazing, @*Hondo* , to share Sir Isaac's birthday!  I merely share Elton John's - good but not my sort of music - Aretha Franklin's, that's a bit better. Various relatively obscure scientists. But when we had to pick the exact number for our roadside address, and had the choice between 1569 or 1571 (because we're about 15.7km from the main highway turnoff, and that's how they do roadside numbers here), we picked 1571 because it was the year Johannes Kepler was born! 

Just coming back to chuck in an edit. We love this guy, he's such a good representative for Physics, and makes it really exciting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Cox_(physicist)





 
And here's a TED talk that's very topical:

https://www.ted.com/talks/brian_cox_..._the_explorers


----------



## Hondo

There are other important historical figures that share mine and Newtons Christmas birthday


----------



## SueC

Ah, but apparently that was just the Romans making a Queen's birthday out of it at roughly the time of an already existing festival (Saturnalia)! ;-) Real birthday, who knows? But I guess at least you got the Queen's birthday part of it!


----------



## Hondo

Well, we'll just say that we celebrate it on the same day. I know about the actual birth date but prefer to ignore it for my own selfish purposes

I have been fond of proclaiming that I, Sir Issac Newton, and Jesus Christ share the same birthday, but not necessarily in that order


----------



## SueC

Sometimes I think it was purposely obscured so that 1/365th of a certain population wouldn't be odiously smug!  :rofl:

You know, what you just said really reminded me of a song, so here's a little tune for you. ;-)







If it doesn't play embedded, click the YouTube link directly!


----------



## Hondo

I've been using a Ghost treeless saddle pad with 3/4" Supracor material for inserts with a 1/4" custom fit rigid bar on top of the Supracor material.

Tying it to the middle O-rings on both ends has worked well for keeping the pad centered in the saddle. But recently some of the outer Ghost pad material has broken off leaving a spot that did not look very comfortable for Hondo.

Sooo, I had been thinking about going back to the bar being attached directly to the bottom of the saddle and this looked like a good time to put the thinking into effect.

When I had the bars attached to the bottom of the saddle previously, I had just sewed spots of the loop part of Velcro to the fabric holding the fake wool on the bottom. Wasn't very secure and soon the bars were shifting.

So this time I sewed right through the 1"+ base of the saddle. Velcro is now very very secure. "Ain't goin' nowhere".

Some time past I had purchased a set of panels from Ghost for.......I dunno, just me wanting something to create an idea on. I had already determined the bar would fit so I cut out pieces from the Supracor material the same size and shape as the bars and wedged them into the pockets, with the original foam material removed of course. The pockets are longer than the bars but the bars fit so tightly that I needed pliers to close the Velcro closures. No chances of them moving around but when I finally pull the trigger on a sewing machine I will sew them to fit. But hey, this is just a prototyping exercise and the Barefoot is my test base.

So anyhow, rode up to my next work station on my Connection Trail today and it worked very well. I initially placed the front of the bars a little low and the saddle felt wider than before. When I unsaddled Hondo at the work site I moved them in a bit and the width felt fine on the way back.

There is a picture of the bottom of the saddle below and another with a piece of foam the size and shape of the bars sitting on top to show where they are inside. The bars and Supracor are 1" thick and the rest is almost nothing.

Funny on the way back down. Hondo pulled a scenario similar to @gottatrot's Amore when she discovered a puddle she had made and spooked at it, as where did that come from and who/what did it.

Hondo went on a serious alert as we made our way back down the hill toward the saddle which was laying upside down. I could not figure what could be making him so nervous. As we got closer I followed his eyes and saw the saddle. I urged him on until we finally got to it, he examined it and smelled it, and all was fine.

The saddle actually did look rather ominous from above. Didn't look like a saddle at all and it was large enough to be potentially dangerous. Better safe than sorry he said, but if you go first I'll follow behind.


----------



## Hondo

Math anyone??

This is so off topic, but it's my journal so I can more or less do what I want? Right?

This guy who hated math got a whack on the head and turned into a literal math genius. MRI's determined his brain was using areas that are not normally available to human access.

I woke up this morning with this question: Why would an area of the brain evolve, or anything for that matter, that was not beneficial and not even used? That just seems so incredible that we may all have areas of our brain that are not being used but are fully wired and functional.


----------



## Hondo

We just got back from actually riding to the top of what I'm calling the Connection Trail. The top of the trail is actually where my connection to Hondo made a huge turning point last February. But that's another story for another time.

I had been leading Hondo up some fairly steep and extended switchbacks as I worked on the trail. Today I decided to see what happened if I rode all the way, but stopping as often and as long as I would walking. No problem. I was less tired at the top and Hondo got stronger tougher...haha. (don't tell him i said that)

Anyhow there is a National Forest grazing fence at the top. There is a jury rigged passage through the fence but it needs a gate there.
The trail does continue right on past the fence. A very obvious old trail that was once well used.....a long time ago.

When I got home I looked up Prescott National Forest to see when it was established. 1908.....110 years ago! That means the trail has not been ridden for at least 110 years and likely longer. That is just so exciting to me. Don't know why, it's just my thing. I'm just dying to know where it will finally end up. Grandin would probably say it is exciting my SEEKING circuits.


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## Knave

I think that is super exciting too!


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## tinyliny

oooh. someone's going to cut that fence soon, I'm pretty sure.


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## Hondo

There should have been a gate placed there. Probably was not even known that the trail was there when the fence was built. It's very old deeply rusted wire but still serving to keep bovines in their allotted areas.

There is a humongous waterfall on Minnehaha Creek that would take rock climbing equipment and experienced climbers to go up. I am hoping the trail will eventually descend back into the creek. If it does, it will be a short cut connection to a trail to the old historic mining town of Crown King about 10 miles away that still has an operating general store and a huge saloon, dance hall, and restaurant. All built in the 1800's.

I've been there many time in the past. Food is good. There is only one road in by normal vehicle with 24 miles of dirt, 4wd recommended. Rock crawlers, ATV's, and motorcycles come in from various directions. I've had in my mind for some time to make the trip by horse.

Once I get to Minnehaha Creek, if I do, there is a good horse trail all the way. I've ridden it several times in the past as it is open to motorcycles but there are very few that will tackle it.

Interesting story about that trail which is now called the Wagoner Trail. Previously it was called Luke's trail. Charles Luke was the mayor of Prescott in the 1800's. He became enthralled by the mining in Crown King. One mine owner had a wealth of gold assayed but needed a stamp mill to crush the ore and remove the gold.

Charles Luke went into a partnership with him. He bought a stamp mill in San Francisco where it was transported by sea and land to the then town of Wagoner where only a water tower and windmill now exist. When locals ask me where I live, I say Wagoner and they know about where I live.

Luke then hired 40 men to carve out a trail to Crown King over which the disassembled stamp mill was transported and reassembled. It's still there in Crown King.

Well, the mine owner started encountering delay after delay. The bank that had loaned Luke the money started wanting some payment. When it never came, they foreclosed. The properties Luke had used for collateral was not quite enough to pay the loan and the stamp mill was sold at public auction.

There was only one bidder. Guess who? The mine delays soon ended with the stamp mill going into operation.

There's more to the story, sort of.

Charles Luke had no children but had two nephews that were like sons that he went into business with after the stamp mill loss. One of the nephews had a son that became a WWI flying ace that was somewhat famous for shooting down dirigibles. An airforce base in Arizona was named after him. Lukes Air Force Base 15 miles West of Phoenix.


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## Hondo

As mentioned in other posts, Hondo's bulbs did not do well in Renegade/clogs 24/7. The tops from diabetic bamboo socks helped, but not enough. The shells from the easycare gloves were modified as clogs and worked well except when Rimmey got excited across the fence and started racing around, Hondo followed suit and threw the shells off.

As Hondo wound up going barefoot more and more, the time either foot could be held off the ground became less and less. One evening Bickmore Gall Salve was liberally applied to both bulbs with the sock tops and Renegades fitted on. The next morning his bulbs were better than the night before. Hallelujah!

Within about three days either foot could be held up for an extended time without complaint.

Good thing as today EDSS Steward Clogs were fitted to both fores. Many steps on a learning curve resulted in almost one hour per foot with a two hour break in between.

The job turned out pretty well and the really good news is that he is moving fine and seems really comfortable. And I'm feeling comfortable knowing that the sole under the front edge of the coffin bone is suspended in mid-air with the load being born by the back 2/3 of the foot.

The installation was a modification from what has been used on the Ground Controls in the past and works really well. If they stay put for four weeks, the method will be a keeper.

I am totally sold on clogs, mostly from the experience of seeing them come and go in the form of boot/clogs and seeing the movement come and go with the changes.

I'm thinking about going back and having his hinds x-rayed. Probably ok but why take chances.

Received this in email today. Good stuff.

https://www.ecirhorse.org/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=film_campaign


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## Hondo

Woke up last night to the sound of hoof beats. As it turned out the main herd that had been gated away from the area finally found the gate open and was across the creek past the trees.

For some reason Hondo was frantic. Rimmey was mostly standing around looking in that direction while running a little in sympathy for Hondo, but Hondo was trotting and even galloping back and forth in his 150 foot long pen. And his tail was raised at a 45 degree angle as Rimmey and other horses do at times.

In 4.5 years I have never once seen Hondo do that. He was really over the edge. Being concerned about the shoe installation, I stood beside the race track until he finally paused next to me, I was uttering calming words. After stroking him his feet were checked and all was well. The clog installation passed a fairly good test. Fingers still crossed.


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## gottatrot

Whew! Glad they stayed on!


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## Hondo

This is why Hondo was running around. It took Hondo a while to figure out he had new tennies and when he did, he was like a kid with new tennies, they felt so good he had to go charging around to try them out. I used to do that also.

He is spinning around on his fores and doing stuff that suggests he is very comfortable. Can hold his feet up for a long time also. We went for two 1+ mile walks today. I'll do more of that before riding. I just don't want to make anything worse. But with the majority of the weight on the back 2/3'rds, and in need of movement, maybe it would help more that hurt.

But for now the little motorcycle will be used to get more miles on him at a slow walking pace. It's geared way way down.

Do you know what the injury stats are on a motorcycle/horse combo. Sounds pretty dangerous. Yikes.

Many of the horses in the herd start coming to me when they see the motorcycle. "There's Harold, bet he's carrying treats".


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Do you know what the injury stats are on a motorcycle/horse combo. Sounds pretty dangerous. Yikes.


Ha ha, yes, you're upping the ante! Talk about thrill seeking!


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## SueC

That brain thing has me intrigued, @Hondo. I'm thinking about it and will definitely get back to you on that one. And yeah, you can pick any topic you like on your journal, within the boundaries of public presentability! ;-)


Seems like you were a model patient for dealing with your own major illness (in self-advocacy, research, input, outcome etc), and now you're doing the same for Hondo. I'm glad he's got you to take care of him. And your other animals too.


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> I'm glad he's got you to take care of him. :


Thanks but in reality, he would have been better off if someone else had been taking care of his nutritional needs. If so we wouldn't be where we are at the moment.

I wish someone had taken me by the throat and seriously explained, "You are not just allowing him to get a little overweight, you are potentially killing him!!!!!".


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## SueC

It's an easy thing to happen even to an experienced person, when it happens for the first time. If it makes you feel any better, a similar thing happened to my retired Arabian mare when we first moved out to this farm, after her first spring flush on our pasture. The other horses were fine, including horses in the neighbourhood. But she was a desert breed, not like the others, and a very good doer. The weight just crept up on her slowly and occasionally I'd say, "She's a little overdone!" and then get back to the thousand other things that were occupying us at the time. And then her feet got sore, and how stupid do you think I felt then? And how irresponsible?

How obvious was it in hindsight? ...like lots of stupid stuff is in hindsight. Microwaving in "microwave safe" plastic containers. Walking behind a blue-smoke-blowing mower as a teenager without a particle mask. Using spray-on deodorant when I had studied toxicology and physiology and should have been able to put two and two together that this kind of stuff getting airborne isn't great for your lungs. That occurred to me a decade _after_ I'd finished my degree! It's amazing how many blind spots there can be, even if you are trying to do all the right things.

I still think both Hondo and my Arabian mare are / were lucky to have you, and me, respectively. (BTW my mare recovered after being put on feed restrictions and anti-inflammatories.) Because while that's a really regrettable sort of error, there are also the thousands of things we did right for them, day after day. Compared to a lot of "standard" owners, this is a good ratio. Not that either of us are ever going to be happy about it, but we learn from those mistakes... Believe me, it won't happen to another horse in your care, now you've seen it. And guess who's locked into the driveway partition this evening? Sunsmart, because I don't want him ballooning this spring flush. He's on restricted pasture until it dries up; he can go out in the daytime, but spend 16 hours a day on short grass instead of in knee-deep clover. But it's still a wrench for me to restrain his freedom temporarily. With the example of the Arabian mare ever before me, though, like a spectre, I can bear that wrench...

:hug: Sometimes it's not nice to be human, particularly when you stuff up about something to do with someone you really care about. We've all been there...


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## Knave

Definitely @SueC and @Hondo! We all make mistakes. I haven’t foundered a horse, but what I did to Bones with his ill fitting saddle stands there always for the world to see. It is not a little white mark he holds as many horses do who have worked hard, but a worse sort of whitening around his withers displays my continued mistake. For a year I rode him hard in a saddle that was far too wide for his narrow frame.

Yet, I still know at the bottom of my heart that, (maybe the only horse I’ve ever owned who could) he can say he is lucky I am the one who owns him. No one else would tolerate his issues and his high maintenance, and he has tolerated my mistakes too. We are both blessed in this. The other horses here though? I’m sure there are better owners out there, but they are loved and cared for and I think that is enough.

Hondo is very lucky to have found you. I wish all of the deserving ranch horses could find someone like you in the end!


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## SueC

In a way, having a horse is very like being married. You just can't get it 100% right all the time, unfortunately. And the stuff you do wrong is usually stuff you actually know how to do better. Good thing that real love allows for the human condition, and being a work in progress. (Not that these things should be used as lame excuses, mind! The important thing is to keep learning how to do better.) 

mg: Now I sound like one of those self-improvement clips I laugh about! :rofl:


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## Knave

@SueC I needed your self improvement today!!


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## SueC

Glad to be of assistance! ;-)


:cowboy:


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## Hondo

Knave said:


> Hondo is very lucky to have found you. I wish all of the deserving ranch horses could find someone like you in the end!


Thanks, I console myself that he was likely to have been on his way to a slaughterhouse in the back of a tightly packed semi trailer while panic stricken start to finish.


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## Hondo

The first picture is from 9/24, the second is from today, 10/20. About 1 month has passed. How we doing? The string (baling twine) he was measured with suggests he is around 1 inch less around the heart girth.

He's standing a little different but he seems my lying eyes to be a little less hefty. Took him out with the motorcycle today and he was asking to trot. That's very unusual for him. Th ground is soft so I followed his lead.

He was wearing clog boots on the hinds. The secret for the bulb is to smear Bickmore Gall Salve on the bulbs. He hasn't had a problem since.

Note: Don't know how the other pictures got in there but unable to get them out.


















Here's some shots of the EDSS Steward Clogs. The black mark from a marker is the front of his frog for alignment. The screws are counter sink screws so they stick out more than I'd like. Next time I'll try some that are flat under bottom ad then grind the heads to a smaller diameter. Those are # 6 screws, not #8. In my experience, #8 is just too large and un-needed.

For those who may read this and not know, the holes for the screws were pre-drilled from the bottom away from the sole and in the laminae.


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## SueC

He does look a lot more comfortable, and also lighter already. Weight reduction during laminitis is slow because exercise is limited at first; it gets better when they can do trotting, as well as extended walking. If people cut the calories too rapidly during laminitis (i.e. actually semi-starve them), that can make it _worse_ instead of better as well - especially in donkeys, the Donkey Society informs me - we've had the care of two laminitis risk overweight donkeys since 2012 - they haven't had trouble with their feet, even though they are still overweight. Not as overweight as they used to be when we got them, but still. They wear muzzles fulltime in the spring flush to reduce their intake, and the speed of intake (and part-time at other high-feed times), and this has helped prevent laminitis in these high-risk cases. The Donkey Society, which said hello to them again this year on a visit, told me as long as they are net losing weight, even if slowly, the risk is low - and that slow and steady is best. The risk is greatest when they are _putting on_ weight.

Although obviously, the more the horse slims down, the less pressure there will be on the laminae - and that's a greater issue for horses than small donkeys.

I much admire your handiwork with those clogs. 



Our Romeo with a beached whale! 




The one on the right is the correct weight. But they are all so _irresistible_...


I can never get over your dog, @*Hondo* . I'm always double taking because he's like the twin of Jess!


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## Hondo

Hondo is not being underfed, that's for certain. He's been getting a full ration of hay and many low s/s supplements. I'm really happy that although he's not been treated as strictly as was recommended, he does appear to have slimmed down a bit in a month. Extrapolating to a year he should be pretty good. And as you say, he's not had any exercise to speak of in his 1/6 acre pen.

I'd worry about the heads of the screws sticking out that much in rough terrain, but for now it's fine......hopefully.

Edit: The picture of the two horses is Dragon talking to litle full sister Dolly as she lounges. Don't remember taking it. Probably thought it was cute. They hang together a lot.


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## AnitaAnne

I can see a big difference in Hondo already! He appears to be slimming up more than just his girth; his hindquarters and neck look much better!! 

What ever you are doing is working...


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## egrogan

Agreed, he does appear a lot less bloated than in pic 1


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## gottatrot

I also think Hondo is looking more svelte. He is definitely lucky to have you. Great job on the clogs.

I thought supplements were overrated and unnecessary until Halla lost so much weight and muscle from Vitamin E deficiency several years ago. Seeing how a vitamin made such a huge difference in her health was a real eye opener for me. Agree that slow and steady weight loss is the best way to go.


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## Hondo

Both of you are music to my good morning ears!! 

I shall continue on the more or less "program" that he is on except he will be doing a lot more exercise soon. He is never hungry for over 30 minutes and he's getting a better balance of nutrients and minerals than he ever has.

Yall have made my day and it's only 3:28 AM!

Edit: Make that three. Ooooo, svelte even! I'll tell Hondo what you said.


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## AnitaAnne

For what its worth, in my experience, easy keepers tend to be much more energetic when they are at a healthy carb-controlled weight. 

So don't be surprised if your "happy-to-only-walk" horse :cowboy: turns into a "lets-go-did-you-see-that-monster-in-the-bush" horse :gallop:


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## AnitaAnne

PS - the clogs are cool! Are they slippery for the horse though, they look smooth on the bottom...

Are they appropriate for navicular horses too? Seems similar...


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## Knave

I think he looks dramatically better too. I am the opposite of @AnitaAnne in thinking that I always think a fat horse is more edgy, although they wear out of it quickly. To me they usually are all heat for a half a day and all peddling the rest of it. Lol


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## AnitaAnne

Knave said:


> I think he looks dramatically better too. I am the opposite of @AnitaAnne in thinking that I always think a fat horse is more edgy, although they wear out of it quickly. To me they usually are all heat for a half a day and all peddling the rest of it. Lol


When fat that may be true, but when healthier they seem to be much hotter than when overweight and full of carbs. 

Metabolically sound horses don't seem to change personalities with feed changes like easy keepers do...IMO


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> PS - the clogs are cool! Are they slippery for the horse though, they look smooth on the bottom...
> 
> Are they appropriate for navicular horses too? Seems similar...


I don't think anybody should be doing barrels with them or they might wind up under rather than on the horse.

Right, they don't appear to have a lot of traction, but that is supposed to be one of their features in allowing the horse to turn his foot on the ground without putting strain on stuff.

That said, since the plan is to use them for at least one year, by the time it feels safe to do a little more aggressive trails, easycare's (whatchamacallits) will likely be installed for added traction.

As far as other uses, here is a PDF instruction guide that comes with each set of clogs.

You may note that my attachment method is not covered in the brochure. That was developed with the use of the Ground Controls. But only the center on each side was installed first, then the other four pre-drilled holes were drilled on though the shoe with the screws coming up from the bottom. The method used on the clogs is so far much easier with no real downsides. A big plus is that if it were desired to remove the shoes at some point for inspection and/or treatment of the solar surface, the shoes could be easily removed and replaced in the same holes providing good alignment marks were cut into the shoe and hoof. And even if the screws did not go exactly into the old shoe holes, it would not matter since they would be in the original hoof wall hole. I'm pretty pleased with this development 2+ years in the coming.

http://www.edss.co/files/clog-instruction-guide.pdf


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## SueC

AnitaAnne said:


> For what its worth, in my experience, easy keepers tend to be much more energetic when they are at a healthy carb-controlled weight.
> 
> So don't be surprised if your "happy-to-only-walk" horse :cowboy: turns into a "lets-go-did-you-see-that-monster-in-the-bush" horse :gallop:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:runpony:





AnitaAnne said:


> When fat that may be true, but when healthier they seem to be much hotter than when overweight and full of carbs.


This is also true for me, @AnitaAnne. :Angel:


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## Hondo

Well, I've been thinking about that and thinking about posting. Today Hondo broke into a fast enough trot twice that required 2nd gear. No encouragement from me. He was alongside and abreast. So I'm wondering about that. But.....may be he's just glad to get out. He also noticed when I got the halter, sort of like when I get the leash for the dogs. We'll see how it pans out.

I remember when I was at my peak condition (a long long time ago when I was jogging every morning and working out every night I would sometimes suddenly break out into a run when crossing a large parking area at a store. I often recieved quizzical looks, "What's he running from?" I'd just do it without noticing. Oops, better stop running, you're scaring people.


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## Knave

Lol @Hondo. My kids have a game and it says “pick out the fastest mii” and there are all these characters walking and one is jogging. I was picturing that laughing.
@SueC it is true for me too! I am much hotter when I am fit.  I’ve been working on that again.


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## SueC

Knave said:


> @*SueC* it is true for me too! I am much hotter when I am fit.  I’ve been working on that again.


I just realised there were three ways to read my reply to @*AnitaAnne* . :rofl: And nobody can prove which one I meant! Bwahahaha. :Angel:

Or which one you mean, for that matter, @*Knave* . :cowboy:

G'night, @*Hondo* ! :ZZZ: Me go _work_ now, finally! inkunicorn:


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## AnitaAnne

Hondo said:


> Well, I've been thinking about that and thinking about posting. Today Hondo broke into a fast enough trot twice that required 2nd gear. No encouragement from me. He was alongside and abreast. So I'm wondering about that. But.....may be he's just glad to get out. He also noticed when I got the halter, sort of like when I get the leash for the dogs. We'll see how it pans out.
> 
> I remember when I was at my peak condition (a long long time ago when I was jogging every morning and working out every night I would sometimes suddenly break out into a run when crossing a large parking area at a store. I often recieved quizzical looks, "What's he running from?" I'd just do it without noticing. Oops, better stop running, you're scaring people.


Yeah...voluntary trotting! That is your sign he is feeling a whole lot better  plus eager, not hesitant to go out...


Been thinking you may have to reconfigure Hondo's back model...and saddle :smile:


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## AnitaAnne

SueC said:


> This is also true for me, @AnitaAnne. :Angel:





Knave said:


> Lol @Hondo. My kids have a game and it says “pick out the fastest mii” and there are all these characters walking and one is jogging. I was picturing that laughing.
> 
> @SueC it is true for me too! I am much hotter when I am fit.  I’ve been working on that again.


We are some HOT CHICKS :chicken::chicken::chicken::angel2: Just need to get skinnier and I'll be really FAST too :rofl: 

G'night all :ZZZ:


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## SueC

I have an erratum for @*Knave* and @*AnitaAnne* : 


Quote:
Originally Posted by *AnitaAnne* View Post 
_When fat that may be true, but when healthier they seem to be much hotter than when overweight and full of carbs._

Moi:_ This is also true for me, @*AnitaAnne* . :Angel:_
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

There were actually at least _four_ interpretations of my reply to AnitaAnne! This occurred to me while perambulating on horseback (with the horse perambulating on the ground, not me on its back, just so there are no misunderstandings - for the latter, apply to @*Knave* , who can probably make it two for the price of one and perambulate on the horse's back while the horse is perambulating on the ground :dance-smiley05. It seems that even the vicarious kind of perambulating on a horse can increase the quality of one's pondering. :Angel:

Anyway, there are three common usages of the word _hot_: In reference to temperature, or to temperament and personal excitability / "goeyness", or to sexual attractiveness. In her original statement, I inferred (probably correctly :Angel that AnitaAnne was discussing the relationship between a horse's nutritional status and its excitability / "goeyness".

But what did I _mean_ in my reply? That is anybody's guess. :rofl: 

Which interpretation of the word _hot_? Or even a combination of meanings duplexed or even triplexed together? And was I really talking about myself - or was I just saying, "I second your observations with horses on this topic, @*AnitaAnne* !" ???

Had I used the phrasing, _"This is also *personally* true for me, __@*AnitaAnne*..." _then it would have mostly eliminated the possibility that I might have been simply backing up her observations with congruent equine experiences of my own. Then it would have been down to three main possibilities (in this current context) around the meaning of _hot_, alone or in combination... (want to do some permutations, @*Hondo* ? :winetime

Noone will ever know! Bwahahahahaha! :rofl:

The secret is _mine_ - *all* mine! :happydance:

Aaaah, ambiguities and subtext....:tongue:




PS: Thank you for letting us party at your house, @*Hondo* . We may be whippersnappers but we're not the sort to leave crumbs all over your sofa... :Angel: :Angel: :Angel: :Angel: :Angel:


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> Been thinking you may have to reconfigure Hondo's back model...and saddle :smile:


I am doubting that will be necessary, but maybe. The custom fit bar can be easily removed from the zippered "pouch?" that it's in and placed on Hondo's back in the correct location to determine fit.

The degree twist from his shoulder to the 18th should not change I wouldn't think. And the dip from front to back at the bar location shouldn't either, I wouldn't think. The curvature crossways on the bottom is very slight and should fit also, again, so I think.

As far as the spread of the bars, they are free to swing up or down as they are fitted to the treeless saddle that is now a hybrid treed/treeless.

But if there was a lot more fat build up in one location of the bar and a lot less in another, maybe. But it should be checked.

Now that you've brought up the subject, the cut outs for making the model of his back are sitting right outside and can be placed on his back individually. With only 1 inch decrease in his heart girth, I'm not expecting much change.

If necessary, the bars could be placed on a new frame and reheated to fit. The kydex material can be reheated without loss of properties as long as it doesn't go over about 350 F.


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## AnitaAnne

The bonus of treeless saddles; they mostly self adjust!! 

I would expect his back to change too if he gets down to a 3-5 scale which is where I like my horses to be at. 
@SueC hmm...what kind of hot are you???? I think maybe all of the above :rofl:


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## Hondo

Hondo will never see a 3-5 scale. Me neither. Hot babes. Oh my. Be still my heart.


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## SueC

@AnitaAnne, we find one of the blessings of middle age is that your increasingly blurry vision buffers you a little from beholding the disintegration of yourself and others... and maybe that's why I have been holding things at arm's length, switching the bedside lamps to bright globes for improved reading, anything but get myself reading glasses... :rofl:


@Hondo, I've always wondered what a hot babe is. Is it a human infant with a high fever? Or perhaps one being bathed in a thermal spring? And how could that possibly be confused for an aesthetically (and otherwise) appealing grown-up? :?:


And is it true you eat hot dogs in America? ...what does Roman think about that??? :chicken2:


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## AnitaAnne

@SueC off topic just a little...but you don't need glasses to see HOT! Ask all the little old ladies that comment on our cute male nursing assistants! Sometimes they pinch the guys too :angel2:


Definition of "HOT BABE" (@Hondo plz correct if wrong) a young lady that isn't dressed like a lady and appears to be just over the minimum legal age, bonus if the female is actually looking towards the dude and not laughing or barfing :rofl:


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## AnitaAnne

Hondo said:


> Hondo will never see a 3-5 scale. Me neither. Hot babes. Oh my. Be still my heart.


But seriously, Hondo needs to be at about a 5 for his health and your riding. Goals are good to have and you can do this


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## Knave

Hmm, just standing up for word choice. I say babe and baby often, and in no way do I mean it in a young way. Well, maybe occasionally, like this morning when I said “Wake up beautiful baby” to my daugher, who also is not a baby, but I did mean it in a youthful way in that moment.


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> The bonus of treeless saddles; they mostly self adjust!!


But the problem with treeless saddle is that they often either are too stiff and bridge or are too soft and don't spread the weight enough, the latter being the most frequent problem. But with the rigid bar, the weight is always spread evenly under the surface area. And if one shoulder is a little higher, that bar can still float upward for correct fit.

I just don't understand why they are not being made like the hybrid treed/treeless.


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## gottatrot

I believe if Amore can stay at a 5 with her voracious appetite, Hondo can get there too. Poor Amore has the appetite of a 17 hand horse in a 14.2 hand body. We were at a barn where there were a lot of big horses, and the owner would go around and shovel out 25 lbs of hay for each horse, which was appropriate for the big ones but not for my little pony! 2% of her body weight is only 15 lbs. But Amore would clean it all up if I didn't intervene.


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## Hondo

@gottatrot Hondo can easily eat 2 pounds of hay in 30 minutes. I fed him one day a pound or two at a time and watched him. In the recent video of Dr. Kellon she said lipids or something, I've forgotten the word, was what turned the hunger off when they got full and that IR's just didn't get the message. Certainly it's not their fault.

With an average of 15% water in hay, 20 pounds of hay is 17 pounds of dry matter which is what the 2% is based on. 

It's just such a problem if one is concerned about them going too long without food in their always acid producing stomachs.

Hondo was having a fit at first with the large large opening hay bags. Then he got really good at cleaning one of those up. So I put it in the feeder with 2 inch grates out of 1/4 round stock. Ha! That'll fix him! It did..........for a while. So we went to a smaller opening. That worked for a while but now it's under the grate.

I have one that is really really fine. He walked away from it. But this morning it was almost empty.

1 need a 24 hour robot that will hand him 30 minutes of hay every 30 minutes.

When I get up at three and he's eaten the food that should have lasted him until 5 or 6, I give him some Wellserve 4% sugar 4% starch to dilute any collected acid and go inside to play with the computer.

I was looking at him today and I'm happy with how it's going. Just about the right speed. The vet and tech said not to worry about the crest, that it would be the very last thing to go.

Renegade hinds are staying on 24/7 now. I just grease up his bulbs every night. They're looking fine. And as a proactive/prevention I'm also applying some Magic Cushion Xtreme to his frogs and collaterals.

The plan is to modify some Ground Controls to a semi clog for his hinds. Don't have any that fit at the moment. The heels on his hinds have spread the last two years also. Gotta get some new ones on order.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> @gottatrot Hondo can easily eat 2 pounds of hay in 30 minutes. I fed him one day a pound or two at a time and watched him. In the recent video of Dr. Kellon she said lipids or something, I've forgotten the word, was what turned the hunger off when they got full and that IR's just didn't get the message. Certainly it's not their fault.
> 
> With an average of 15% water in hay, 20 pounds of hay is 17 pounds of dry matter which is what the 2% is based on.
> 
> It's just such a problem if one is concerned about them going too long without food in their always acid producing stomachs.
> 
> 1 need a 24 hour robot that will hand him 30 minutes of hay every 30 minutes...


I like Dr. Kellon's info. I don't care as much for Dr. Getty's theories that horses need to eat constantly no matter what, something Dr. K discusses in this article:
https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2016/06/02/here-we-go-again/
It's not only IR horses that have the leptin resistance, but studies show that the more fat a horse has, the more leptin, so being overweight causes the leptin issue even if the horse is not IR. 

I have thoughts about this, which came about after reading and observing quite a bit. You should know I felt very guilty about being unable to give Amore hay 24/7, and looked into installing one of those automatic feeders that dispense feed every two hours. 
I read a study about horse grazing habits, and if horses have access to grazing 24/7 they will graze between 10 and 17 hours a day. That's a bit different from needing food trickling through their system 24/7. They also have patterns where they sleep, loaf, groom, and travel, and may sleep for two hours straight. 

So one of my thoughts is that there are probably variations between horses (like we have with our sleep patterns), so in general a horse's system has to be able to tolerate going without food for periods of time without problems. Also I've thought about what is the worst that will happen if a horse goes without food too long. Colic, or ulcers, right? I haven't seen any horses colic from going without food for up to ten hours, and many barns I boarded at had a practice of putting horses in stalls at night with hay that was quickly eaten. 
I have seen horses get ulcers, but not just randomly after getting used to that type of schedule. 
They'd always end up with ulcers after a prolonged period of time without food, such as after a long transport in a horse trailer where they didn't eat, or some stressful time, or a sudden feed change (same with colic). 

I think the slow feeder nets are great, and a good partial solution. However, with Amore I went away from using them because they stressed her out so much and only slowed her down a little. With the smallest hole net she would eat all her hay in a half hour longer than if I didn't it in a net at all. But the whole time eating she would squint her eyes, stomp her feet and swish her tail while squealing at almost every bite. So I thought, is she any less likely to get ulcers while stressing like that?

For myself, prioritizing, it was a thought about which would be worse, to have my horse get overweight and potentially end up with damaged hooves, and possibly a chronically painful condition - versus getting ulcers which are quite easily treated and not life-threatening.


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## Hondo

Thank you. Your thoughts parallel much of what I've been thinking and experiencing. I have watched the herd stand around for a prolonged time before going back to grazing. Not 10 hours, but a couple and maybe even a little more. Even when Hondo was on free choice hay, he would leave it and go stand around for up to an hour. So yeah, I've questioned that a horse needs food constantly trickling into the stomach.

I had not read about leptin resistance and so looked it up.

_Per WebMD: "In leptin resistance, your leptin is high, which means you're fat, but your brain can't see it. In other words, your brain is starved, while your body is obese. And that's what obesity is: it's brain starvation." Not only is leptin part of the hunger system, it's also part of the reward system, Lustig says."_

I'll be reading more about that. Sure would be nice if they could develop some "glasses" so the brain could see the leptin.

Hondo is still eating quite a bit of hay, but he's loosing weight, or I should say fat. At one time I was a big Covert Bailey fan and one of the things that stuck with me was his comment about losing weight. "What if I told you there was a sale at the supermarket at five pounds for three dollars?" "You'd say five pounds of what?" His point being we don't want to loose muscle as that's what burns fat and don't necessarily want to loose water.

I also remember the difficult thing for people trying to lose weight by working out is that early on they actually gain weight because muscle mass increases faster than fat burned at first. Then at some point the muscle mass increase tapers off and fat is being burned in even greater amounts with the added muscle and the weight really starts to drop. I've experienced that.

But even in the beginning, the belt will begin being looser even during the weight gain because muscle is more dense that fat and the "svelte" is already happening. That's why I decided to measure Hondo's heart girth.

I know you have tons of more experience with horses than I, but it'll take a heap more convincing for me to accept a horse going for 10 hours without food. I know they won't die but I'm not sure it's good for them. I'm doubting Dr. Kellon would support that also.

I have fed my last three dogs, including Roman, free choice. Food always available. I've been told by vets that can be done if started early in life, which is what I've done. And the vets always have commented on how good shape they are in. They'll eat when they want and how much they want and then walk away. Leptin must be working for them.

But they are not Hondo. And I know the bottom line is that his caloric intake by one method or another HAS to be reduced or he will die or need to be put down. Period. That could easily have happened already and I consider him still in the woods even though on his way out.


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## Hondo

Oh man! I've been all over the net about leptin resistance. Discovered in 1994 and somehow I've missed the whole show.

Since the western diet and high caloric intake seems to be the culprit in development of human leptin resistance, I'm betting that grasses designed or selected for putting weight on cattle but fed to horses may be the bottom line culprit in some horses developing leptin resistance.

I have been planning and now will for certain take some samples of the native grasses still growing in the nearby National Forrest to send off for testing for protein and sugar.

Fingers crossed that it's low in sugar and starch. If so, Hondo could graze without a muzzle. He'd like that.


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## Knave

I don’t know if that is why horses get fat @Hondo. I think they get fat to make lean times. The mustangs, although I understand they are feral and not wild, will get fat if given the opportunity of a nice spring. They likely stay more fit, because of the constant moving. 

I also don’t mind leaving horses without feed for part of the day @gottatrot. We don’t have pastures for the most part (I do put Bones out on grass during half the year and the others get to go graze for around a month a year), and our horses get fat on what they are fed as it is. Not Bones however, since he stays so fit, and so I tend to feed him more.

To me I think that being fit is just as important. If a horse got enough exercise it wouldn’t really matter how much he ate. Bones is pretty well proof of that, although I had wondered if he was just a thinner type of horse, but since he has been off almost two weeks now I can see him gaining on less access to feed.

I guess I think that horses don’t tend to go “oh, I’m full.” I think they eat and sleep for the most part. I’m pretty sure they are proud to be obese. They won’t die over a hard winter. Lol

Our horses just don’t have to exercise to eat.


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## whisperbaby22

It's easier for me to regulate feed because I have no pasture. The trick is to find out which type of hay will keep your horse rummaging with a bit of hay left over from the last feed. For most horses, alfalfa will not work, but a orchard or timothy or something else will work. Right now I am able to trickle feed one type of hay, and feed just a little alfalfa. 

Of course, they types of hay available to you will be the problem, here I have a pretty good selection.


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## Hondo

@whisperbaby22 !! Good to hear from you. Have wondered where you went.

The thing is, Hondo is losing fat and a nice steady rate, so as someone suggested, I'll just keep on keeping on until it stops working.

I was just thinking today, wow, his legs sure look longer.

I mentioned the thought of modifying some Ground Control shoes to mimic the Clog for the hinds. But instead I called EDSS to ask if Clogs were appropriate for the hinds. They sent me to Gene O' who said for performance horses they had been using an aluminum clog that seemed to work better. When I said Hondo was not a performance horse and would only be walking in them for up to one year he said, "Oh, then he won't have any problem at all". So new Clogs for his hinds are on the way.

Ya know, there was a stallion roaming free range on the ranch for about three years. I actually got to within 20-30 feet of him. He was hanging around cattle for protection I suppose and eating whatever the mountains offered. He has free choice all around. Leptins must be working pretty good.


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## Hondo

Checked my memory with Google and yes, eating more frequently but smaller meals is supposed to be a go to weight control method that works. So why wouldn't that work for horses? Bing eating is supposed to pack on fat. Don't know why exactly but in my mind the body says, "Hey, we can't handle or use all this at once so I reckon we'll just store it". And up goes the leptin resistance.

Comments?

Quote: 6 Meals a Day for Weight Loss. You've probably heard the advice that eating small meals throughout the day is how you win the battle of the bulge. The claim is that frequent snacking, as long as it's healthy, keeps your metabolism humming, staves off hunger, and controls blood sugar. The end result: You eat less.Jun 28, 2014
6 Meals a Day for Weight Loss - WebMD


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## whisperbaby22

Thanks, Hondo. How to feed horses is something I am interested in, I feel if something is working for you - stick with it until there is a problem.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Since the western diet and high caloric intake seems to be the culprit in development of human leptin resistance, I'm betting that grasses designed or selected for putting weight on cattle but fed to horses may be the bottom line culprit in some horses developing leptin resistance.


Yes, that seems highly likely - combined with the sedentary lifestyle of most domesticated horses compared to ranging horses in the wild. The beef pasture is way richer than what is good for horses, who foraged on coarser, lower quality material in the wild.




> I have been planning and now will for certain take some samples of the native grasses still growing in the nearby National Forrest to send off for testing for protein and sugar.
> 
> Fingers crossed that it's low in sugar and starch. If so, Hondo could graze without a muzzle. He'd like that.


Native grasses are often a good bet, including in Australia.

We're in a prime beef and dairy district, and we deliberately don't hothouse our pasture with fertilisers etc. I've got cattle crash grazing much of the clover out of the top field at the moment before letting the horses back in there - I stick the cattle in the richest sections during spring flush, and the horses in the poorest. Once again, the horses were locked into the driveway sector overnight to restrict their intake of spring flush pasture. The two overweight donkeys are in muzzles to slow them down, and this works to stop them putting on weight - I bet you those two are leptin resistant. But at least we've slimmed them down slowly compared to their weight when they first came, and they haven't had laminitis or other complications.

You've got Hondo losing weight slowly; that's what you want! :clap:


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> You've got Hondo losing weight slowly; that's what you want!


But I'm now worried that if he gets to a 5 I may think he's too tiny to carry a full grown man around. Four years ago I didn't know enough to worry. I was 20 pounds heavier and the saddle was around 40 pounds heavier.


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## SueC

:rofl: @Hondo! You're officially a dag. He'll just be dragging around less overall weight.

PS A dag is an Australian expression that people will call others in circumstances like this. Strictly speaking, a dag is a shiitake-y bit of wool on a sheep's bottom! ;-)


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## Hondo

So I should now expect a little spring in his perabulations?

Based on wiki thoughts, I'll need to ponder this dag label.

dag
/daɡ/Submit
nounINFORMAL•AUSTRALIAN/NZ
an unfashionable or socially conservative person.

What is a social conservative?
Social conservatism is the belief that society is built upon a fragile network of relationships which need to be upheld through duty, traditional values and established institutions. This can include moral issues.


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## SueC

The dictionary might say this, but to call someone a "dag" in Australia is very common when a person makes a faux pas or a deliberate pun or a dodgy joke. When Brett "marvinises" (spins far-fetched potential negative things about to happen, like Marvin the Paranoid Android in _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe_), I call him a dag. When he tells me he's washed his hair and I ask, "And what about your rabbit?" he calls me a dag. When someone wears their ugg boots in the shopping centre they qualify for the dag label, etc etc. It's just an affectionate sort of insult! ;-)

PS: Very swish little modification to your signature, and not at all daggy!


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## SueC

This is Marvin, by the way!


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## AnitaAnne

Hondo said:


> But I'm now worried that if he gets to a 5 I may think he's too tiny to carry a full grown man around. Four years ago I didn't know enough to worry. I was 20 pounds heavier and the saddle was around 40 pounds heavier.


So he has already lost 60 pounds! Another 100 to go...he will be so springy you may have to call him Tigger


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> This is Marvin, by the way!


Oh you're such a dag! BTW, I Googled "swish" and got into a really weird choreography.


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> So he has already lost 60 pounds! Another 100 to go...he will be so springy you may have to call him Tigger


Maybe I should stop when he reaches a 6.


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## SueC

If it's any consolation to you, ideally Sunsmart would be losing at least 60kg. :shock: He started on Pergolide today. I decided to put him on a treatment trial. We caught his PPID very early - and blood tests showed no Equine Metabolic Syndrome, no blood sugar issues, liver and kidneys wonderful, trace elements all where they should be. The only thing that he had was an extra-long coat this winter, which went clumpy as it fell out - and I got suspicious. As yet no laminitis, no muscle wasting, no strange sweating, no heat or exercise intolerance, no excessive drinking or peeing, not ravenously hungry, and rides just fine. But because these things developed so quickly with his mother last year and we ended up with a dead horse, I'm very toey. My veterinarian says that most cases aren't like her case, but gradual; and that attention to diet and exercise are often enough until other sign of the disease develop. On the other hand, early treatment can be helpful in reducing progression in the first place, and will maximise his remaining healthy life span.










You can see his funny hair pattern there with yellow tufts sticking out on his flanks that should have shed out, and "feathering" right up to the carpals and hocks. And because I was unable to ride 8 weeks with the broken foot, I was unable to keep up his fitness training, and food restrictions alone have never been enough for this horse. So he went podgy. And this is three weeks after I resumed working him! But we're getting there - he was already much less of a balloon here than when I started again.

He and Hondo can be in a weight loss club together.


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## Knave

Join Cashman to the club. He’s got some weight loss necessary as well. He’s already lost two holes in his back cinch since he arrived. He’s still quite chubby.


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## SueC

And while we are there, I'm joining too. I nominate 2-3kg of blubber around my navel from the after-effects of broken foot pain (which spikes cortisol and tends to result in fat accumulation around the umbilicus) and reduced exercise. We're walking serious hills now, and have been watching carbohydrates like hawks all along. But like with Sunsmart, food tinkering isn't enough for me either. Muscle tone is up now though, and blubber is slowly starting to shift.


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## AnitaAnne

Chivas and I need to be added :redface: 

I was shocked at the Yellowhammer endurance ride in March 2018 when the vet graded Chivas at a 4... :shock: I thought he must have been looking at a different horse, was hoping to be graded a 6-7 and worried he would be pulled for being so porky...


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## Knave

Bones is excessively fit, probably the fittest horse I’ve ever ridden, but only because his mental state requires it. In his off time I can see he’s gained weight, but definitely he’s been struggling. Anyways, I think he can join @AnitaAnne’s Chivas at a 4.


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## Hondo

Hondo got hinds. Had to trim them to fit his pointy toes and still a little wide at the back. Got'em on pretty well I think. They are lined up with his frog apex when viewed from the side. One looks off in the pic but it's not.

Used non-countersunk screws and turned down the outside diameter. Lots smaller than the screws in the fores.

The hinds were really difficult to get lined up the way a horse holds his hinds. I think I've got it figured out. Even Gene O' said it was hard to do solo.

I'll be getting better I'm sure. I'll be doing an average of one per week for a year or more.

Edit: Oops, one of those is the bottom of one of his fores. How'd that get in there? Oh, well.........


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## Hondo

Holy cow! We went on a 4 mile +/- ride today on easy terrain and Hondo has never asked to trot as much or even trotted as much (neither have i).

I don't know if he was just glad to be out and about after two months in the infirmary or if his feet felt that good. He was trotting right through the gravel and rocks. He kept needing to be slowed down as I really didn't want to test the shoes that much yet. But he returned with all four. I'm accustomed to doing the boot check but today I was doing the shoe check.

After two months it felt really really good. Hondo seemed to act like he was even enjoying it.

@SueC knows what it feels like to be off horses for a while and then back on.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> @SueC knows what it feels like to be off horses for a while and then back on.


Great news!! It's amazing how many muscles get fit when you ride regularly...you discover them all when you try riding again after awhile off.


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## QueenofFrance08

Add Stitch and I to the weight loss club! I could lose at least 15 lbs if not 30 (and hope to before we try a 50 next year) and she was getting 6's and 7's at the end of the season. Now I'm happier with her at least not going into winter skinny (like Jake, my other end of the spectrum) and I do think there is some bias from Endurance vets who mostly look at Arabs and have trouble with stock horse body types but she certainly could stand to lose a few....


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## Hondo

Funny, I've had this happen before. I didn't ride yesterday because my back was having fits from something I must have done wrong when installing Clogs on the hinds. I mean pushing off chairs while leaning forward just right. Very painful

Today it was a better but still not good. Against my belief I took two ibuprofen and saddled up. My back feels much much better than when I left.

A therapy person told me that what often happens is that the pain comes from the muscle that is not damaged as it tries to carry the load of the damaged muscle, but when the good muscle gets overworked it says, "Hey, I know you're hurt, but I can't handle this without hurting myself", and it tends to all get worked out.

I have no idea if this explanation is accurate or not, but I've experienced the phenomenon many times.


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## Knave

I’m so glad you’re back to riding! I’m also glad the shoes worked and that your back feels better too. I have some issue with mine ever since a wreck I got in on a horse called Partner. Anyways, if it hurts too bad I know I need to go ride. I guess for some it helps and for some it doesn’t...


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## SueC

How nice you're back to perambulating on horseback, @*Hondo* ... or should that be turbo-perambulating? It's not quite the right word, but I am sure you will find the right word for what you are doing now! 

Sorry to hear about your back niggles. I get a form of it too, a pinching nerve post riding injury at age 21 which stretched the pelvis-spine attachment ligaments. It typically happens when I reach forward when my lumbar region is not strictly in ideal position - can happen picking even something like a feather up off the floor the wrong way. It can niggle a couple of days, or if really bad, cause muscle spasm that deforms the whole spine for a few days - but is generally held at bay by Pilates (i.e. if it happens, it's because I've slacked off on Pilates...). I have a good back brace for trimming, but do you think I can find it after putting it in a safe place??? Two horses lined up to trim and a full-on Easter egg search for missing equipment...

I hope you, Hondo, Roman and your other four-legs have an excellent Tuesday!


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## Hondo

Mine also had an origin from long ago. A really knowledgeable and helpful deep tissue masseuse. I do it to myself now with the help of a massage tool. I'b better get to work I reckon.

Good luck on your Easter egg hunt. You'll likely find it right after you finish trimming.


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## SueC

Yeah, very true! :rofl:

Have a good evening!  I'm going to brave the hayfever and hit the garden...


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## Hondo

We went for another brisk walk yesterday interspersed with spontaneous bursts of trotting. Have no idea if this in due to feed, feet, or being cooped up too much too long. Time will tell. For the moment at least, the leisurely stroll is not happening.

After the second day of horseback massage therapy the back and hip are getting pretty good.


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## AnitaAnne

AnitaAnne said:


> For what its worth, in my experience, easy keepers tend to be much more energetic when they are at a healthy carb-controlled weight.
> 
> So don't be surprised if your "happy-to-only-walk" horse :cowboy: turns into a "lets-go-did-you-see-that-monster-in-the-bush" horse :gallop:


Sounds like this might be the case with Hondo...:smile:


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## Hondo

AnitaAnne said:


> Sounds like this might be the case with Hondo...:smile:


Morning ruminations.............

Just not certain. Hondo has not lost all that much weight yet. If his activity were to continue to increase on a straight line to a score of #5, I might not be able to hang on to him or ride at all without four way hobbles.

While I agree that any weight loss for an overweight horse, or person, usually results in more activity, I'm thinking the foot comfort and being glad to be out of jail may be contributing also. 

When he was first in his little pen with Rimmey visiting he would make no move to leave with Rimmey when Rimmey was let out. But now he does. It was like at first he was glad not to need to walk for food and water, but now he'd like to go get some grass and walk around.

Day before yesterday he did not seem anxious to be saddled up and was not quite as exuberant on the trail. And then that night and last night I caught him laying down more often. That worried me and he was not ridden yesterday for that reason.

But I see no irregularity in his gait. He turns 180's without a hitch. It may be that after two months of inactivity the third day his muscles were a little tired. I know mine were.

I've decided to let him go out in the 3 acre pasture during the daytime with a muzzle. I believe he needs more than just a couple of hours of exercise. That's good for his muscles but his feet need some movement 24/7.

I've known for some time now that a horse with chronic laminitis has rings that are wider toward the heels. And on another topic Patty Stiller said that there have been a lot of studies that show a horses hoof grows at exactly the same rate at the toe and heel. But laminitis was not being discussed.

In the video on the clog installation Gene O' mentioned that he had cut at least 2" off the heel of the horse he was working on since he came into his care but not more than 1/4" off the toe. A horse that was severly chronic with laminitis. This puzzled me.

Then I recalled that the blood circulation was compromised with a rotated hoof that reduced growth in the hoof and sole. That's it! Growth in the toe slows from reduced blood flow which produces the wider rings near the heels.

Rumination on this is what causes me to think that 2 hours of foot work with standing around a lot the other 22 hours is not good for hoof and sole growth in the front of the hoof since movement aids the circulation. And more frequent foot landings with the clog may even aid in faster derotation de-decent.

End of rumination stream.


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## Hondo

Well I just did turn Hondo out into the three acre field. He galloped all over the place with both his tail and Rimmey streaming behind. Doesn't seem he would do that if his feet were sore or he was tired. I need to grab some video of him running.


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## carshon

interesting thought on the heel toe growth. I wonder if it would also apply to Navicular horses where the Navicular bone is compromised. I have a 20yr old Navicular mare - she suffered from the normal long toe, under run heel of a lot of Navicular horses. She is barefoot now and get her feet rasped about every 4 weeks. But I swear that she grows no heel at all - ever.


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## Hondo

I don't know but wouldn't think a navicular problem would affect circulation or growth. I do remember Patty saying that many people thought that a club footed horse grew faster on one side than another and not from wear as they were shod. She said the side taking the brunt of the impact actually compressed the hoof wall enough that it would be shorter giving the impression only that it had grown less. Patty Stiller was a valuable resource and I'm sorry she is gone from here.

So any how, maybe heel first landings could compress the heel wall? I have no idea. Or perhaps the navicular does affect circulation. Strange.

Edit: If the heel is actually growing more slowly then the rings should be closer together in the back than the front. If the growth rings are spaced evenly, that should indicate even growth all around.

(i think)


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## Hondo

Early morning cogitations..........

Hondo was ridden to the barn and back which is three miles round trip for three consecutive days. Plus a little around the soft 60 acre field. On the third night he was seen lying down more than usual. The next night also after not being ridden that day. The next night and last night he was not seen lying down. He has not been ridden since the three day stint.

The road to the barn is a dirt ranch road but is hard packed and rocky in a few spots. I'd compare it almost to riding on pavement. Hondo should be growing a new attachment in the vicinity near the coronary band maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch wide which would mean it would be easily damaged from compression shock.

This is based on my musing and not something I absolutely know as fact but regardless have decided to proceed on these musings.

So....Hondo absolutely, I believe, needs footfalls that will squish the internals of his foot around. This will aid circulation, sole growth, and with the Clogs de-rotation and hopefully correct the decent. But the foot falls need to be squishy themselves as much as possible. So his riding and exercise will be restricted to soft terrain and no matter how exuberant he feels will not be allowed to trot. All this for 12-14 months. Just the way it's gotta be.

I've really had difficulty getting his feeding needs and lack thereof wrapped around my resistant head. I'll be feeding him rations at around 6 hour intervals. If he eats it in 3 hours, I shall just have to suffer with him the next 3 hours. I jest, but I do tend to want him to eat constantly which he doesn't want to do anyhow. I think I'm somewhat like the aunt that wants to always have some hot apple pie when her nephews and nieces happen to stop by. I'm getting better. I think. I hope.


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## SueC

The soft footing will totally be helpful, @Hondo. I don't know how bad your horse is, but when my Arabian mare was recovering from her one bout of laminitis (from her overeating on the pasture), she was 31 that spring and allowed to exercise on our soft sandy footing as she wished. We muzzled her and let her perambulate when she stopped being lame in around a week... and around a week or so after that, she trotted freely in the pasture, and after that I was encouraged to lunge her (trot, canter as offered, and she did) to help with weight reduction. From thereon in she got lunged a lot (as she was retired from riding), and muzzled whenever the grass was abundant.


That's just her particular case, and I completely share your concern about working on footing that doesn't compress the sole and offers too much shock at this point. I think there are also things called lily pads etc that help exert pressure on the frog in horses recovering from laminitis - in conjunction with boots I think. You could ask @loosie, who's very informed on those matters.


Best wishes for Hondo's recovery. The feeling you have with horses, I have with humans - I like to give them food...


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## Hondo

Don't know if you are aware @SueC , but Hondo is wearing EDSS Steward Clogs on all four. He has two part hoof packing also with the packing in front of the frog removed. The Clog has a depression where the front of the coffin is located. With the leverage reduction design of the clog, almost all of the force is carried by the back part of the hoof behind the apex of the frog.

This is the very most advanced and successful treatment for rotation and decent.

Here's a picture.


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## SueC

Thank you for the pictures, @Hondo, I had no idea what these look like on the inside!  Do they not offer enough shock absorption then? I'm a little confused (but this happens, migraine all day earlier today not helping). Was Hondo getting bone rotation with his bout of laminitis?


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## Hondo

Yes, I'm sure they offer shock reduction compared to metal shoes but when the thin fragile new connection at the coronary band is considered, I worry that the reduction may not be enough for hard surfaces.

Yes, Hondo had around 2.5 degrees rotation and about 1/4" distal decent on his fores. Hinds were not x-rayed but is wearing clogs there also just in case. He had similar hoof temperatures on his hinds early on so I know they were at least affected.

BTW, the little grooves in the shoe are used to line up with the apex of the frog. The hoof wall is marked along with the shoe and those marks are lined up when attaching.


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## SueC

I committed a bit of a faux pas before, I'm afraid, @*Hondo* - because you would already have researched everything anyway... sometimes bits of information just randomly fall out of compartments and make it onto the screen without adequate filtering...  Sorry about that.

It's nice to learn more about new ideas for treating these blasted problems... and yeah, hard surfaces are bad - it's similar when you're recovering from a broken foot: Lots of cushioning when you start to walk - and I'm _still_ limping barefoot on concrete, and walking really carefully there, but completely fine in my nice shock-absorbing hiking boots anywhere now.


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## Hondo

I'm not certain what faux pas you are referring to but your apology is accepted, whatever it was for :?:


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## SueC

Well, you know, just the idea that you wouldn't know about Lily Pads etc already, when you have a horse with laminitis and you're Mr DIY and Medical Research Extraordinaire... as we know...

Have a lovely Sunday. :ZZZ: time here for us!


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## Hondo

Hondo and I did a few circles in the field and down by the river yesterday. All soft footing. I decided to pull out the Trooper to see if it still felt like it used to. Boy it did! I love the way I feel in that saddle. I feel so secure and confident, like Hondo would have to get serious to get rid of me using that saddle.

The Western Supracor that was purchased about six months or so ago was used. First time on a horse. The saddle was placed on Hondo without the pad first to check fit. That's another thing I like about the Trooper. All edges of the bars can be felt and checked for fit. It fits fine. If his back does change, the way it's constructed, washers can be added or taken out to rotate the bars. Fitting was fine tuned that way when first assembled.

Hondo requested a trot several times but I just didn't want his feet hitting the ground that hard. Just because his feet were not hurting did not mean they would not begin hurting if the laminae stretched a bit which I don't want happening. He did walk with much more exuberance than normal in the past. He sure seems to have a big "squirm" for such a small horse when walking. Sure gives my waist a workout. Which it needs

Woke up this morning thinking about the song On Top Of My Hondo. Decided the "until death do us part" line was too heavy and changed it to "I'll love him forever, until the ending of time". I like that better.

He gets lots more TLC nowadays since he can't be out in the field. I swear when I'm brushing his mane he gets this odd expression on his face that resembles a grin. I'm sure it's my imagination.

@gottatrot Oh yes, I think Hondo and Hero have more in common than the first letter of their names. When food is placed in front of Hondo, the world stops.


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## Hondo

For your reading pleasure.........


https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2013/10/04/free-choice-feeding/


Quote: "The solution for IR horses is a slow feeding system. There is now a wide variety of options to do this, including nets with very small openings or feeders using bars and grates that limit how much hay the horse can extract."

"Severe calorie restriction below 1.5% of bodyweight on the average can backfire because this metabolic stress actually triggers or worsens IR"

"Free choice hay feeding usually does work very well for horses that are not metabolically challenged. After a few days of adjusting to the novelty, they will regulate their intake to what they need. It’s not an option with grains or complete feeds containing grains though. The palatability of these dietary items will lead to overconsumption."

"My starting point for feeding IR horses is a hay with no more than 10% ESC (simple sugars) and starch, combined, fed at 1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal weight, whichever is larger. A slow feeding system is ideal. Alternatively, the horse is fed multiple small meals throughout the day." End Quote


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> "My starting point for feeding IR horses is a hay with no more than 10% ESC (simple sugars) and starch, combined, fed at 1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal weight, whichever is larger. A slow feeding system is ideal. Alternatively, the horse is fed multiple small meals throughout the day."


Which one are you trying with Hondo - 1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal weight? I always have gone with 2% of ideal weight (my best guess), since I wasn't quite sure what current weight was. 
For example, I taped Amore once when she was about 775 lbs, so I feed her 15.5 lbs...but also I have to try to estimate how much she grazes and subtract that. I figured Halla should weigh about 900 lbs, so tried for about 18 lbs for her. Hero is around 16 hands so gets about 20 lbs of hay.


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## Hondo

I'm in the same boat. I do not know Hondo's ideal weight nor his current weight. Plus he also gets turned out with Rimmey for two hours each day. 

In the past he has measured around 1,050 pounds but he hasn't been measured recently. Sliding three fingers pressed together over his ribs with less than heavy pressure is beginning to produce the feeling you described of running a finger across the palm opposite the knuckles. But the "palm" is still a little "puffy". It's only been about two months so I'm real happy at what he's achieved so far.

If I were rolling in cash like Scooge McDuck I'd get one of those six times per day hay feeders. As it is I keep stuffed haynets outside his pen and throw one over during my frequent night time awakenings with him being fed around 6 times per day.

As long as he's losing at least a little, I'm happy. The vet and tech said not to worry about his crest as it would be the last to go.

Last night at 6 PM I stuffed a haynet with 15 pounds rather than the usual 5 pounds just to see what he would do. At 3 AM there was still quite a bit left.

Do you correct the weight of hay fed for water content? I use 15% for water content which leaves 24 pounds of hay being 20.4 pounds of dry matter.


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## Hondo

Stumbling around on the net.......

I am one of those that remembers eating fat will make one fat. But now this. And extra virgin olive oil is rated as one of ten good sources of fat.

Now I'm wondering if Hondo's hay should be top dressed with olive oil. Ignorance can really be blissful.

Quote: FAT IS NOT FATTENING. WEIRD, BUT TRUE.
Most people worry that eating fat will make them fat. And it's no wonder-- we have been told this for decades. And, we know that fat has more calories per gram than carbohydrates or protein. So the assumption is that fat makes you fat. Why, then, as we have cut back on fat, especially saturated fat, have obesity rates tripled?


Our bodies are incredibly complex. Hormones play a huge part in regulating everything, and body weight is no different. It turns out that if you want to burn your own body fat for energy (which is essential if you want to lose weight), you must have low insulin levels. Insulin, you see, tells fat cells to pull fatty acids out of the blood and to keep fat in the fat cells. Whenever you eat carbohydrates, you body floods your bloodstream with insulin. So eating more carbohydrates means less time in fat burning mode. Which means more fat accumulation in the fat cells. Which means hunger and weight gain. Eating more fat and fewer carbohydrates means easier fat burning, less hunger, and a better shot at losing weight.

Leptin is another hormone important for feeling satiated. But insulin dominates, and interferes with leptin's ability to make you feel full and satisfied. So, when insulin is present, due to excess consumption of refined carbohydrates, it turns off leptin's signals, leaving you unsatisfied and on the road to weight gain.

REPEAT AFTER ME: EATING REFINED CARBS MAKES YOU FAT. EATING GOOD FATS MAKES YOU THIN. End Quote

https://www.eatthebutter.org/fat-makes-you-thin/


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## Hondo

When weighing hay for a horse another factor that may need consideration is refusal and wastage. With Hondo at least, that can add up to at least some significance.

Large dairies actually weigh hay refusals that are extracted from the hay bins.


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## gottatrot

I agree that refusal and wastage should be taken into consideration. If we get hay that has lots of pieces of straw-like stems with undigestible fiber in it, I feed a bit more. 
If it helps, I've read that horses grazing consume 1-1.5 lbs of dry matter per hour. So for two hours of grazing you should in general subract 2-3 lbs of hay. 

I've read a lot about diet and calories and fats, carbohydrates, etc. I believe the truth is what I learned in nutrition class. Yes, some things we eat are marginally more difficult to turn into energy. Some things have less vitamins and minerals. But there is still the simple science that a calorie is the energy content of food. Regardless of what type of food you eat, the calories consumed must be in balance with the calories burned or you will lose or gain weight. 
People see that they lose or gain more weight on certain diets, which has more to do with the amount of calories they eat because of whether the food makes them feel satisfied or full, or whether they are more active.

With animals, I have seen that some are able to regulate their appetite, but others require that we regulate their calories. Many animals need to eat as much as possible when they get a kill, or when they find a good food source. In a domesticated environment, we often need to ensure they only eat the calories needed. I've had dogs and cats that would gorge until massively obese, unless their calories were restricted to what they needed.

If carbs made people fat, then top athletes would all be fat because they often eat more carbs than anyone else. I eat a lot of carbs, but am thin. It really comes down to energy surplus or deficit. Just as important as what we eat is the composition of our body. If we have loads of fat cells, yes they will mess up our hormone regulation and create a pro-inflammatory response. A healthy diet is very important (for humans, there are a variety of options for what that might entail). As far as horses go, I think there are two separate things to consider: one is the calorie/energy content that matches the horse's activity level. The other is that the feed given is balanced in the vitamins and minerals needed, as well as providing the amount of roughage/fiber horses need for health.


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## Knave

I wouldn’t consider the water weight myself; I just don’t think that wasn’t considered in the weight originally.

I live on a hay farm/ranch, and our hay is very good quality. There is never waisted hay with horses or cattle. It gets pushed back in with young cattle or horses get fed less is they didn’t clean it up. Now, milk goats refused stems, and since they were milking and I was pushing that milk I allowed them the refusal, and I threw the stems to the horses every other day or so.


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## whisperbaby22

You don't need to be rolling in cash to have an automatic. Check out my article on choosing one if you like, and there are some articles on making them on the internet. I have used these for years, they are an important part of my horse keeping.


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## Hondo

Knave said:


> I wouldn’t consider the water weight myself; I just don’t think that wasn’t considered in the weight originally.


Well, the thing is, all nutrition recommendations for horses including the results of hay analysis are based on dry weight in order to compare apples to apples. Even green forage is dried when sent in with the results in dry weight. That way green forage can be compared apples to apples with hay. Green forage has a huge amount of water.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> I believe the truth is what I learned in nutrition class.


There are just so many things we all learned in a class from physics to nutrition or what ever where many of those concepts are being challenged and proven wrong or only partially correct today.

Much of the literature for instance on the horses foot printed 50 years ago is now upside down.

There just seems to be a developing controversy on the traditional concept of CICO.


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## phantomhorse13

Remember that horses are herbivores and humans are omnivores, therefore a diet ideal for one is not necessarily ideal for the other. While I think fat supplementation can be a good thing in some cases, a horse trying to lose weight is not one of them. I am with @gottatrot in that you need to look at the overall in vs out and decide where those calories come from. I can gleefully eat an ice cream cone.. but I am going to be hungry again in an hour. But if I ate those same calories in salads, I wouldn't be so hungry.



While certainly having access to a scale would be ideal, I think using a weight tape or even some baling twice tied together would give you a good general idea of if Hondo is continuing to lose and from where. Measure his heartgirth, but also measure farther back along the ribcage and just ahead of his stifle. You can also measure around the tops of both hind legs and around his entire body. As long as you know where you started and keep tacking measurements in the same places with the same thing, it doesn't matter if those numbers relate to "real" weight or not. You may also want to take pictures as you go along, as its hard when we see someone daily to notice overall changes.


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## Hondo

@phantomhorse13 I agree, it matters where the "C" comes from which I meant to be the jist of my comments that recent finding "seem" to indicate. Walking in to log on to the computer I was remembering that USAites often complain about the food from certain cultures as leaving them hungry 2 hours later. Those usually are heavier in carbohydrates than fats or protein.

All that said, the difference may be what the body adjust to and USA'ites eating only the particular cusine that may be in question, may soon begin feeling satiated until the next meal. I, for one, do not know.

And of course yes, the equine digestive system is worlds away from humans and even bovines. The most crucial thing being, perhaps, the way in which sugars and starches are, or are not, digested and assimilated in the foregut and passed to the hind gut where they can wreak all kinds of havoc.

While I have read many places that vegetable oils are often used to add weight to horses, I also read "somewhere?" that vegetable oils could prolong the time before a horse experienced hunger. When I read the article about eating fat that sort of clicked. Don't know where I read the article but I'll be looking.

It sounds like there is a general agreement that CICO only holds true when certain caveats are added to the mix.

And yeah, I knotted a baling twine at Hondo's heart girth about two months or so ago. Not a lot of change but I'm expecting more as his exercise increases. I have always paid more attention to my belt hole than the bathroom scale.


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## Hondo

Covert Bailey was a popular figure on talk shows and hosted his own fitness show at one time. He had a Masters from MIT in nutritional biochemistry.

He claimed that it took around 15 minutes of activity below sugar burning intensity but up to at least 65-70% of maximum calculated heart rate for the body to turn on the fat burning system which would continue for several hours after the end of the exercise.

He also said that to lose fat, it was better to exercise for two 15 minute sessions than one 30 minute session as it did more to stimulate fat burning.

So from that, it might be concluded that if CICO was maintained exactly the same, a person doing one 30 minute low intensity exercise that switched to two 15 minute exercises of the same intensity would lose weight without any change in CICO. That's not to throw CICO out with the bath water, but it does give credence to the importance of looking beyond CICO.

On another note, the Western Supracor didn't work out well for the Trooper saddle. The endurance Supracor is much longer in the front and adds added protection from buckles and rings.

So the very heavy duty flaps were removed since the pad could serve that purpose and the stirrup leathers have fenders on them.

The two flaps weighed in at a WHOPPING four pounds! Now that took a bunch of weight off the saddle. Hondo and I will soon be just sort of floating across the fields. Think butterfly.


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## SueC

The new, lighter Hondo!


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> There are just so many things we all learned in a class from physics to nutrition or what ever where many of those concepts are being challenged and proven wrong or only partially correct today.
> 
> Much of the literature for instance on the horses foot printed 50 years ago is now upside down.
> 
> There just seems to be a developing controversy on the traditional concept of CICO.


Yes, true. However, most of the theories and such are being tested only by those selling the latest highly lucrative diet to humans. They're trying to disprove science with fads and the evidence is based on people who have bought into the claims rather than research.

An example is that there are a few top athletes that eat low carb diets, but they basically have to do everything perfectly. Most people who try to do high intensity work without carbs fail, because that is the simplest route to get enough glycogen stored in the muscles for energy. Yes, the average couch potato can lose weight by cutting carbs. The average athlete needs carbs if they want performance gains.
Yet if you read most of the "research" being spread around, carbs are unhealthy. 

It is tricky figuring out appetite in horses, because humans have a complex emotional response relating to feeling satisfied or full, and perhaps animals do not? If it comes down to only a physical response, then whatever is not shutting off the appetite stimulus may be difficult to figure out.


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## Hondo

Agree 100% on the fad diet dilemma. Many of those are based on just losing water. Some lose muscle. None work. Life change and attitude change is the only thing in my experience that has a shot at permanence. I've never considered fat in itself nearly as bad as all the other things done to the body from the activities that lead to the fat buildup.

But I'm not sure looking at the top athletes are that relevant for the average person. I knew a person living in the SFBay Area that had jokingly told her mother she would run out to see her on her 70th or something birthday. She lived back East somewhere. Short story, she sure enough did. Lots of training and support lead up to it. She told about how much she ate. Mashed potatoes by the mounds. Banana splits, no problem. Until she finished her run to Mom and went off training. Then, big problems. She was still a little overweight when I knew her.

It's all complex. And the more that is learned by science, the more complex it seems to become. Kellor mentioned that feeding an IR horse less than 1.5% of current weight even when overweight could trigger an IR response. So to me, to just stop at CICO and look no farther is an oversimplification of a complex physiology about which I'm sure we've a lot yet to learn.

As far as Hondo goes, he's in no danger of being fed below 1.5% of his current weight with me around He is still eating more than anybody says he should. But he was measured yesterday and came out between 1 1/4" to 1 3/8" below his original measurement at the heart girth. He was right at 1" or a little less the last time he was measured which was a while back. The big glob behind his front leg seems to be significantly reduced. I've been checking behind his eye and comparing to Rimmey and it "seems" to be reducing at least a little.

So for now, steady as she goes.

We're doing short little rides almost every day now. He seems anxious to get saddled up as he knows he'll get some of that yummy grass to eat. I am really enjoying him being nearby. His mane and tail get brushed out twice a day with lots of itchy spots scratched.


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> The new, lighter Hondo!


I smiled as I predicted your response when mentioning floating across the field like a butterfly


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## SueC

Yes; I'm always imagining the visuals and then posting things near it! ;-)


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> It's all complex. And the more that is learned by science, the more complex it seems to become. Kellor mentioned that feeding an IR horse less than 1.5% of current weight even when overweight could trigger an IR response. So to me, to just stop at CICO and look no farther is an oversimplification of a complex physiology about which I'm sure we've a lot yet to learn.
> 
> As far as Hondo goes, he's in no danger of being fed below 1.5% of his current weight with me around He is still eating more than anybody says he should. But he was measured yesterday and came out between 1 1/4" to 1 3/8" below his original measurement at the heart girth. He was right at 1" or a little less the last time he was measured which was a while back. The big glob behind his front leg seems to be significantly reduced. I've been checking behind his eye and comparing to Rimmey and it "seems" to be reducing at least a little.
> 
> So for now, steady as she goes.
> 
> We're doing short little rides almost every day now. He seems anxious to get saddled up as he knows he'll get some of that yummy grass to eat. I am really enjoying him being nearby. His mane and tail get brushed out twice a day with lots of itchy spots scratched.


Good thoughts and good progress. I haven't read that dropping a horse below the 1.5% of current weight is good, I think doing that is pretty much discouraged by vets universally. I'm not sure about the IR response, but this article says studies don't show that this happens with restricted feeding (within the safe ranges normally advocated).
https://holistichorse.com/zones/educational-resources/calorie-restriction-will-not-keep-or-make-your-insulin-resis/

I do understand how it feels to not feed a horse as much as they want - Amore would happily weigh 1400 lbs if I let her. We compromise and she's never going to be less than 5 on the body condition score unless all her teeth fall out (not sure even then), and I allow her to be 5.5. So many of the horses dropped a bit of weight when the weather got cooler and their winter coats came in. I think Amore lost about 5 lbs and put it right back on. Hero is also an easy keeper and he maybe lost 20 lbs.


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## Hondo

I've looked for something indicating the actual weight difference in body scores but came up empty so far. It'd have to be represented as a percentage I suppose. @gottatrot have you seen any numbers on that?


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## gottatrot

Oh yes, of course I am that nerdy.


> For an average-sized horse (1,100-1,200 pounds or 495-540 kg), it has been estimated that each unit of condition score represents about 35 to 44 pounds (15-20 kg); a mere 2.2 pounds (1 kg) of weight gain requires 20,000 calories of digestible energy over and above the horse’s maintenance needs. Therefore, you are not going to see changes in a week or two.


https://thehorse.com/16479/how-does-your-horse-score/


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## Hondo

Thanks. Does that make me nerdy too?? hee

So an obese horse can be a mere 200 pounds overweight in fat. Kellon mentioned that an obese human was often double or more the desired weight which got me to wondering. A 1,000 pound horse would be dead I reckon long before reaching 2,000 pounds.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> Kellon mentioned that an obese human was often double or more the desired weight which got me to wondering. A 1,000 pound horse would be dead I reckon long before reaching 2,000 pounds.



I think the delicate nature of equine physiology prevents such radical weight.. which is a blessing or a curse depending on how you look at it. I don't think the equine foot is physically able to deal with such strain long term. Sadly, dogs and cats do not have such limits as I have seen both come into where I was working double their normal body weight or more.


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## Hondo

Hondo is more easily excited now-a-days. Some literature indicates some horses may have increased energy levels when taking Thyro-L. He is only taking a minimal dose but I plan to begin weaning him off of it. When my doctor wanted me to take levothyroxine I refused. Now here I am giving it to Hondo.

Hondo spooked fairly big yesterday. It may have been Rocket Roman shooting out of the brush from behind. I need to train him to stay right with us but I hate to reduce the exercise he needs and enjoys.

Anyhow, Hondo shot forward so fast that somehow both stirrups were lost in the commotion. I didn't even notice until after we stopped. My concentration was on "Stay on don't fall off!" Glad the Trooper saddle was being used or I'm not sure I would have succeeded.

The cross under bridle is a blessing for both Hondo and myself due to my lack of riding skill. He was at a full gallop with a bit of sideways stuff at one point.

One of my plans this morning is to read up on training for disengagement of the hind quarters.

My left hip and knees had been gradually bothering me more and more but since riding a bit again they are gradually bothering me less and less. Hondo is my therapy horse!


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## gottatrot

Be careful!!
Oh yes, the thyroid pill...that explains the energy. My dog was sluggish and did have hypothyroidism, when he started on his thyroid pill he immediately had more energy. But when overdone it can lead to hyperactivity.


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## Knave

Yes, be careful! I don’t know how much I’d like something that made a horse hot... of course if it’s necessary that will just have to be.


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## Hondo

Here is a picture (again) of Hondo when I first started riding him in May, 2014.

And the next was taken 4 days after he became mine in December 2014, which was six months after he recieved 5 day panacur for a very heavy infestation of small strongyles. He was ridden regularly during that six month period.

What body score would yall put him at in the second picture?


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## gottatrot

From the photo, I'm guessing he was about a 5, probably a very good weight. It looks like he doesn't have any crest, he appears to have no fat deposit behind the shoulder, and both behind the shoulder and the flank area seem to have a depression. In other words, he is not just a "tube" from shoulder to tail. I am guessing from the visible point that you could feel the hardness of his bones on top of his sacroiliac area, and it appears he probably has a depression over his eyes. Probably this is what he will look like once he's down to a good weight.

I think I've told you that with all my animals I run my hands over them to make sure I can slightly feel the spine, ribs and sacroiliac bones. Those areas get buried when any of my critters get fat, whether they are cats, dogs or horses. They are used to the pattern when I pet them: along the back, along the side, top of the hip. Poor pets think I am giving them attention and I'm just seeing how fat they are, ha ha.


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## Dragoon

Why is Hondo spotted like that? That is a very curious coat pattern, or is it scarring from bug bites? Do you know what breed he is? He looks very compact and cuddly, just right for hugging! I like his two back socks, they must flash in dim light and make it look like a two legged person is walking, lol. 

That is funny about the fat-feeling! Lately I've been feeding the gang in the evenings, and I'm concerned about the thin mare being cold. It is dark and they all stay out if possible. I give her hay and throw my arms around her to check if she's shivering and needs her coat. She likely is wondering why the human is so affectionate lately...


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## Hondo

Thanks. I have those two pictures on my desktop to refer to. I've been checking the depression behind his eyes, or lack thereof. Probably multiple times per day at times The vet did a visual but didn't palpate him much except she ran her fingers down his back bone to his sacroiliac area several times.

I've since done that with Rimmey and although he's gained weight his spine can still be easily felt all the way to his tail head. Hondo's spine disappears before reaching the high point of the rump.

Hondo's ribs can actually be felt with not that hard of pressure now. He moves away from pressure so I put my arm around him and run three fingers from front to back on the other side.

So spine, eyes, and ribs are the three areas that I'm palpating regularly.

There is only a slight elevation above his eyes now where there was a hump. Rimmey has a depression.

So he's getting there.

The Thyro-L was cut in half last night which will continue for two weeks then half again for another two weeks. He's only been getting one teaspoon per day. There are mixed opinions about it but in the beginning I wanted to do everything that had even a possibility of helping. He seems to be doing so well I don't think he needs it. Fingers crossed on that.

We're staying away from brushy areas for the time being. When I first started riding him he always became very nervous about brushy areas but since that time we've traveled through area that were extremely dense with no problems.

He's been getting a small dose of Remission also along with the Arizona Copper Complete. The Remission is being discontinued as he gets everything in the ACC except vitamin E and now that he's getting 2 hours of grass per day he should be getting enough vitamin E. When the grass is gone I'll get a source of vitamin E only.

He's had the Clogs four weeks tomorrow so he'll be getting reset.


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## Hondo

Dragoon said:


> Why is Hondo spotted like that? That is a very curious coat pattern, or is it scarring from bug bites? Do you know what breed he is?


If the spots are from bug bites they were very artistic and perhaps nerdy bugs as the patterns ale the same on both sides and locations 

Seriously, a while back I posted his picture asking for opinions on the breed. Most reported seeing a lot of Morgan in him. One asked if he had white around his genital areas and if his hooves were stripped. He has the white and his fores are very striped. The white spots were what made the poster think he might have a touch of Appaloosa. So with those three points covered, I'm thinking Morgan/Appaloosa but mostly Morgan.

I keep threatening to send a hair sample to Texas A&M to see what they say but so far I've found other things to spend the money on.


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## Hondo

Or maybe he has some rabicano genes?

https://www.google.com/search?q=rabicano&rlz=1C1CHBD_enUS715US715&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAgtKTltTeAhWnJDQIHQLQBnUQ_AUIDigB&biw=1242&bih=597#imgrc=lQHHU9adnWYYqM:


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> Or maybe he has some rabicano



Rabicano is a roaning pattern of the flanks, not spots. I would suspect he's got Lp. But I can understand how your money finds place to go before heading to Davis for color testing!


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> I would suspect he's got Lp.


What's Lp? Is it serious?


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> What's Lp? Is it serious?


It is a color gene that causes spots.


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## Hondo

From my reading it appears the LP gene is responsible for Appaloosa coloring also. I would put Hondo as a "Snowflake" pattern. The white hairs on his body are definitely increasing with age. 

Hondo was reset on his fores yesterday. Sort of disappointed but what should have been expected. The nippers were used from the behind the widest part of the hoof through the heels which had grown quite a bit. Forward from the mid point only light rasping was done. Otherwise precious sole would have been removed from under the tip of the coffin.

He adjusted the breakover point to only 3/4" in front of the frog apex. When he gets new clogs the breakover will be moved to that location for him.

I am accepting the possibility that he may even need therapeutic shoeing for the rest of his days. If so, so be it. He is getting around fine and it's actually sort of nice to just throw on the saddle without worrying about boots. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_complex#The_Lp_gene

Prevalence
The Appaloosa horse is the breed best known for the leopard complex patterns, though the complex characterizes the Pony of the Americas, Colorado Ranger, Tiger Horse, British Spotted Pony and the Knabstrupper breeds.[2][3] The gene is also relatively common in the Miniature horse and Falabella breeds, the Spanish Mustang, the Noriker and the related South German Coldblood.[4][8] The existence of leopard-spotted coats among Asian breeds such as the Karabair and Mongolian Altai has been recorded since ancient times, and suggests that the gene is very old.[8] Leopard complex patterns exist in very low frequencies among American Quarter Horses. The LP gene is not found in Connemaras or Welsh ponies and cobs as previously written.

The Lp gene

Probable European wild horse coat colors[12]
Although the spotting and roaning patterns that make up the leopard complex sometimes appear very different from each other, the ability of leopard-spotted horses to produce the full spectrum of patterns, from mottled skin to roaning to more leopard-spotted offspring, has long suggested that a single gene was responsible.[5] This gene was termed Lp for "leopard complex" by Dr. D. Phillip Sponenberg in 1982, and was described as an autosomal, incomplete dominant gene.[4] Horses without the gene (lplp) were solid-colored, those with two copies of the gene (homozygous or LpLp) were usually "fewspots", while those with a single copy of the gene (heterozygous or Lplp) ranged from mere mottled skin to full leopard.[4]

In 2004, Lp was assigned to equine chromosome 1 (ECA1) by a team of researchers.[1] Four years later, this team mapped the Lp gene to a transient receptor potential channel gene, TRPM1 or Melastatin 1 (MLSN1).[7] As yet, the etiology of this condition remains poorly understood.

In 2011, it was announced that an allele associated with Lp was identified in DNA samples collected from prehistoric horses. This finding represents evidence for the presence of leopard complex spotting in prehistoric wild horse populations. The ancient origin of the allele may explain the presence of spotted horse paintings in paleolithic cave art.[13][14]


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## Hondo

When Hondo's fores were recently x-rayed I was wondering how to measure sole depth from the x-ray as it showed the bottom of the foot at a skew due to the single focal point of the x-ray.

The following picture was found on Ramey's distal decent site showing the sole thickness. Comparing it to Hondo's it appears he has around 1/2 inch of sole which is not too bad. The vet seemed to think he had really thin soles so I'm puzzling over whether she is up on the horses feet x-rays that much. First pic will be Ramey's, the second Hondo's.

I'm wondering if she was reading the near edge as representing sole depth.


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## Hondo

In talking to the vet when Meka was taken in for her annuals, the vet explained that the distance between the tack head and coffin bone indicated the thickness of the sole since the tack head was against the sole. Duh! I offered that I knew that and was just testing her.

So anyhow, the sole still doesn't look that terribly thin. Sole doesn't automatically get thin during rotation although it can become thinner afterwards. Some solar concavity however was lost during the rotation.

I may need to think up a different signature if Hondo keeps this up.

We rode up Minnihaha Creek for the first time since his problem. We turned around where the trail becomes steep and rocky. About a 4 mile round trip. The longest we've done since his problem.

Hondo insisted, and almost demanded but not quite, to trot up and down every slope we came to. And on one longer one where his downward trot became larger and faster he broke into a gallop. (everything here on the ranch above a trot is gallop)

The first year and half we galloped a little but none since. And never downhill. I put most of my weight in the stirrups and was doing fine on the level until I felt the saddle slipping to one side, at which point I pulled him up without a problem.

At the wire gate only a short distance away an effort was made to tighten the cinch. There were no more holes! That was good news. The diet is working. So the off side was tightened up.

He is just seeming so much more energetic. If he keeps it up I may be required to learn to ride after all.


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## Hondo

Hondo and I took another trip up Minnehaha Creek Friday. He was back to perambulating again, although still with a little more pep in his step. He did break into a trot on a few short climbs. His added zest the other day may have been due to the first time in almost three months of getting out of his pen or pasture area.

The Clogs were reset on his hinds yesterday. Both the fores and hinds were matched to the width of his hooves but are now too narrow after only 4 weeks. The Clogs design shifts more of the weight to the back 2/3 of the foot and apparently that's spreading the heels even more. That's a good thing for a larger landing area.....to my understanding.

Here's a picture for SueC of Hondo's trailwise SafeChoice pellet container.


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## SueC

I like how it just goes with the horse and gear - unlike the technicolour versions that I commonly see! So lovely that you had a nice perambulation experience, and that you rehabilitation measures are paying off! 


:cowboy:


PS: Are the pellets for you or Hondo, or do you share them? :Angel:


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## Hondo

Of course! We share! I read everything on the feeding instructions and nowhere does it state: Not for human consumption.

We went clear to the top on the Minnehaha project today. I got off and led him up the 0.6 mile steep rocky section. And back down. The vet said he needed all the exercise he would withstand and so far he seems to be withstanding better than I. I'll be taking some tools next trip which will be sooner than later and work on some more trail. Only 0.2 miles to a trail I've already opened up so that will make a very nice 5-6 mile loop when finished.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Of course! We share! I read everything on the feeding instructions and nowhere does it state: Not for human consumption.



And not only that: I'll bet you anything horse pellets are more nutritious for humans to eat than the standard sugary, refined breakfast cereals....


:music019: Now playing all the classic nostalgic favourite rants...


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## SueC

@Hondo , I saw on another thread that the music wasn't doing much for you, and wondered if this would be more to your taste. The nice thing is that you could meaningfully sing it when riding Hondo!


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## SueC

Oh and while I think of it, @gottatrot dropped this little number into my journal the other day, and it's so cheerful and well done. I re-watch this a lot and it always makes me smile. Maybe you'll enjoy it too. These guys are so funny - and also so good - and have a simplicity, but a depth at the same time...


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## Hondo

I liked that song until the vocal started. I seldom listen to music anymore but when I do it'd likely be something more on the order of:

















And my all time favorite from a very young age is New Orleans Jazz with Kid Ory and Red Allen at the top of the list.


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## Knave

Maybe you would like some of these... I like the lyrics a lot.



 
And I have a different version of this song, but I couldn’t find it. It is probably my favorite, just because of the lyrics.


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## Hondo




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## Hondo

Your choice........


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## Knave

I surprisingly liked Miley better.


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## SueC

Hello @*Hondo* , I really like that blues number in your first clip. And aren't they playing fast in that second number! Is the third still at all classed as blues, or is it too upbeat and happy for that? I'm not sure what the genre is... The fourth clip, I like that too. I love how civilised everyone is at that live performance - no screeching, no underwear throwing, no audience hysteria. Not like some of the pop and rock bands! It can spoil a concert for me.

Brett has lots of jazz and was telling me once he likes the older styles and some modern stuff, but one type of jazz he doesn't like is the type that goes on forever and goes nowhere. We're not sure that type has a name. 

Have you ever had the pleasure of seeing stuff like this live? That first song, I like the atmosphere and instrumentation. I've never really seen anything like that live, although I did see BB King in 1988 and remember his basement voice and that he had this bass player who appeared to be bouncing his head off his shoulders as he played! And all with a big smile on his face. That was in a 6000-seater though, and I imagine that a blues number like the first one you posted, played at a small venue, would be amazing to hear live.

Ray Charles I think!  But the cover isn't bad actually. Nice voice and backing. Does anyone else think she sounds vaguely like Stevie Nicks from Fleetwood Mac?

@*Knave* , is your first one country or bluegrass? Excuse the ignorance, not much bluegrass played here. It's so nice to hear a song written on the topic of a decent horse retirement. I think I'll play that to Romeo!  That's a lovely voice on the second track, and I like the guitar style. Good storytelling again, but so sad. Interesting landscapes in that clip.


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## Hondo

Yall got me going on this music thing. I really like Ray Charles but I liked the song as done by Miley best. Never heard of Miley before. I just googled the song and listened to several versions and chose Miley. What a clear voice. I searched for the song done by the following vocalist but didn't find. I'd like to hear her sing it. What a voice she has.

I've only been to two concerts in my entire life. One was dixie/jazz in Sacramento, CA where music went non-stop 24 hours for about 4 days. Bands all over the place from all over the world. It was like stuffing your face with chocolate with both hands as fast as you could. I had to leave after about 6 hours. There was incredible talent from all over.

The other was a small bluegrass get together. I really enjoyed that. Live music is so great. I just remember I saw Count Basie when I was in college.

Blues and Dixie are supposed to be separate types technically I suppose but I'm just a listener and it's all blues to me. John Hurt's is Delta Blues I know. But I just listen to what I like. I think there is even a ballroom blues. Again, I just listen.

Now here's a gal I really like. I got a little damp the first time viewing and listening. Did again just a few moments again. So incredibly inspiring. A very sweet woman. I don't have television and just happened to stumble upon it reading the news on the internet. A few years ago.

Sit back.......enjoy......


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## Knave

@SueC I think it is country. My father showed it to my oldest for her to sing one year. I really loved it. 

The last one I like a lot, but like I said the version I have is sang by a woman. I love the story, although it is very sad.


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## Hondo

Knave said:


> @SueC I think it is country. My father showed it to my oldest for her to sing one year. I really loved it.
> 
> The last one I like a lot, but like I said the version I have is sang by a woman. I love the story, although it is very sad.


According to Wiki: Unlike mainstream country music, bluegrass is traditionally played on acoustic stringed instruments. The fiddle, five-string banjo, guitar, mandolin, and upright bass (string bass) are often joined by the resonator guitar (also referred to as a Dobro) and (occasionally) harmonica or Jew's harp.

Thinking about the second song being sad. It is sung sad, but the horse had a great great life. And now instead of being sent off for glue or dog food he is enjoying great care with his friends. He may miss the days of frolicking activity from his youth, but he is happy and satisfied looking back. Does not need to be sad.

I say this as I'm wondering around in the back pasture with him And I'm not sad about it. I don't really have desires to go back and I'm betting the horse may not either.


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## Knave

I think it’s sad because the horse tried so hard to fall down dead, and it’s sad because of how Teddy realized how he felt.

Oh, I just realized we are ordering them differently! Yes, I think the first song is simply a beautiful story.


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## Hondo

Knave said:


> I think it’s sad because the horse tried so hard to fall down dead, and it’s sad because of how Teddy realized how he felt.
> 
> Oh, I just realized we are ordering them differently! Yes, I think the first song is simply a beautiful story.


I see what you mean about that song. But I think there is also another aspect that is not so sad. The horse successfully refused to be subjected by force and in the end gave his life defending that freedom from forceful subjugation. And I'd like to think that his death had a positive impact on at least a mind or two. As far as the ending of an era, if that would include running a horse to death, then I think that is a good thing.

So my thoughts tend to be that the stallion was proud both in life and in death.

I know I may be tending toward melodrama and that the story in the song may or may not be real, but the idea is there is always positive aspects if we look for them.

The song makes a person think about many things............


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> I've only been to two concerts in my entire life. One was dixie/jazz in Sacramento, CA where music went non-stop 24 hours for about 4 days. Bands all over the place from all over the world. It was like stuffing your face with chocolate with both hands as fast as you could. I had to leave after about 6 hours. There was incredible talent from all over.


I've never been to a festival event. Non-stop music for four days? Even if it were my favourite bands - perhaps especially then - I'm sure it would kill me! I need to sleep! I don't know how people do this sort of stuff. I think 6 hours would have been about my limit as well. The chocolate analogy is a good one - chocolate is great, but too much at once can make you very ill indeed...

Susan Boyle I was aware of, not because I'd watch those shows if someone paid me to (and just look at the audience and panel disrespect at the start, before even giving her a go), but because that made it on the Internet. Great story - wonderful voice. I love how she is just so completely unpretentious and doesn't give a hoot about fashions and making herself "look the part". That, by the way, is also one of the reasons I love the character Vera in the British crime show of the same name. Very like Susan Boyle in age and appearance, nobody expects her to be a detective, but she's a really good one!

I can see how you'd get a bit watery watching that. Me too. Also with this project - a choir made up of homeless people, some of them with serious mental / emotional illnesses, some drug addicted, etc.






If you've not got a Christmas CD yet, I really recommend their recordings. And I can't listen to what they do without crying at least once while the CD is on!  Some of them are super singers, but even for the ones singing really off-key, it's such a big thing to be out there on the stage at all. The imperfections are just a non-issue in the greater picture here...


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## Hondo

That's inspirational for certain. Kudos to the director for pursuing that idea. It's good to hear good stuff.

Official name was Sacramento Jazz Festival. I was just bummed to read that 2017 was the final of 44 consecutive years. To be certain, the same bands and audience did not go for 24 hours per day. There were ballrooms and various places rented for the bands and a schedule for when and where each band would be performing. I just read the normal attendance was 85,000 but began dropping off after 2002. Jazz has had a strong following but the followers are beginning to fade away with age I'm afraid. When I went it was a madhouse. Some people were in RV's from far away for the entire four days. 

Jazz will always be, but not at the size it once was. I'm sure it'll be around New Orleans for a while.

Side note about John Hurt whom I admire greatly even though he's now gone.

In the early 20's he went up North somewhere to record at the insistence of people he knew. He stayed about a year or two and decided he was not cut out for the city and recording. His last song which was never released was about his hometown in Avalon, Mississippi. About 1961 some people looking for old blues artists came across his stuff and wondered if he was still alive and possibly in Avalon, his hometown.

They went there and sure enough when they asked around, "Oh yeah, he lives right down so and so". "Oh yeah, he still plays and sings at church, weddings, parties, and just sitting out on his porch".

When they came to knock on his door, John said he was afraid the Gov'mt was after him for something but he didn't know what it could be. They were in a new shiny car and one even had a tie on.

Short story, they convinced him a lot of people would love to hear him sing and play. He had an unusual style of finger picking where he played base rhythm at the same time he picked out a melody. One man one guitar.

They gave him the name Mississippi John Hurt and he became quite the hit in the 60's before he died.

I took guitar lessons for a while and my instructor had attended his very first ever live performance.

John Hurt, IMO, was a very centered old gentleman. No angle probably, but a gentleman never-the-less.

PS: I don't buy Christmas CD's but if I did it'd probably be about hoof care or something else similar about the horse.


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## SueC

That's a lovely story about that blues man.  I think it's so clever when people can play a melody and their own backing on the one instrument, all at the same time. In violin playing people do a thing called double stopping (and even triple stopping), where two (or three) strings are bowed simultaneously. On open strings it given you a lovely resonant blend of complementary notes - violins are tuned GDAE (much to the delight of Australian violin teachers, who tell their young students, "Just say G'Dae!" for a handy mnemonic... ). Of course, you can also be playing notes on the simultaneously bowed strings - you have enough fingers, even if some of them might end up in unorthodox positions compared to playing on the one string.

Here's a piece that left me completely gobsmacked when I first heard it in my 20s and understood it was _solo_ violin. You can see a bit of how the player does it, but it's pretty subtle as well and bits of it are very fast. In the intro, he starts playing a simple melody, with an open-string backing from simultaneously played strings. After that, things get a bit more complicated... A one-instrument band...






Paganini's Caprices are famous for this level of complexity. They don't always sound pretty (the 20th is one of the nicer ones), but they're always super-challenging. Paganini, born 1782, was the sort of Jimi Hendrix of the violin. There are Paganini competitions all over the world every year, where people try to play the Caprices, because they are technically some of the hardest violin music that can be played. I had a teacher once who was able to do the intro to the 20th. It was fun to watch!

My own most sophisticated double stopping involves some open-string stuff on bits of _Fiddles on Fire_, and more open-string stuff to punctuate _What Shall We Do With The Drunken Sailor_ (with an occasional double stop with the third finger on two strings :clap: :rofl and other jigs and reels. Now that our house is finished, I'd like to get back into practicing regularly, because it's fun and it's good for the brain connections. Also, Brett really likes it when I practice - even though I'm just a basic player, didn't start till my late 20s - but the instrument really does sound so lovely, helped by the good acoustic qualities of our high-ceilinged, resonant open living area... 

Do you noodle on anything? @*Knave* is part of a very musical family!


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## Hondo

No, I no longer attempt playing any musical instruments. I'm best as a listener. Guy's good on the fiddle.

When looking for Tinactin for Hondo at the drug section the other day I ran into an old guy (happened to be couple years younger than i) that had been around horses since he was six, by his report. He had ridden in rodeos and so on and so forth. As the conversation went on he mentioned, "You know they've only got a brain about this big", as he made a circle with his index finger and thumb about the size of a walnut.

How do things like this persist??? Did no one ever cut the head of a dead horse open before the 20th century? I do not have the self discipline to turn away in most of those occasions. I quickly said, "No, a horse's brain is about the size of a grapefruit, almost as large as our own". He wanted to argue but with the authority I expressed he did not, or perhaps he just had more self discipline than I. He did maintain the small circle with his hand for quite sometime afterwards however.

Can't help but wonder if he followed up on determining the actual brain size or just decided I was a newbie moron.


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## Knave

Things like that kill me. Even if their brain was small, how do we in turn associate that with a lack of intelligence? Humans only use a small portion of their big brain... maybe some people must assume that animals are less intelligent to be able to manage them... I really don’t know why people think the way that they do.


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## Hondo

I was just thinking about the old guy. He really seemed like a nice person. If his entire horse life had included the assumption or belief that a horses's brain was that small, he would likely have to redo a lot of things in his memory of horses. That may have been why he was so seemingly reluctant to relax his hand from the small circle.

But yes, the size wouldn't matter really anyhow. Anybody that likes to use the term "bird brain" should read up on the recent discoveries about the really high intelligence of some birds. Like learning to spell out words without being taught. That was an incredible example in Animals In Translation.


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## Hondo

I liked this enough to decide to post it in it's entirety here. I found nothing to argue with, and for me that's something

https://horse-charming.com/2014/12/04/communication-or-motivation-which-do-you-think-you-need/

Quote:
Communication or Motivation? Which do you think you need?

Often when I am asked to help people with horses, or when I teach small groups about how horses learn, I ask the people participating what they most want out of the lesson or class.

Very often the first thing people say is that they’d like a better relationship with their horse and usually when I ask what that means they say that they wished their horse would listen to them more or they complain that they don’t seem to be able to get through to their horse or to communicate with him.

If your horse does not respond when you ask him to do something, generally or in specific situations, it is really useful to think about this from two angles.

Think about whether you have a need to improve your communication skills, or whether you need to improve your motivation skills. And in the moment, when you are with the horse, think about whether you have a communication issue or actually whether it is a motivation issue.

I was sent a great sketch today by someone who had done a course with me a few weeks ago and who had really taken to heart that suggestion. She had evaluated her predicament – the horse ignored her cue to walk on out of the stable – to look at what might be the problem.

Is the issue that the horse does not understand what to do when you give the cue, or is she confused about which behaviour is required? Or is it that the horse does understand the cue but is either not able to “hear’ it or is simply unmotivated to respond?

Because when we say that the horse does not listen, that can sometimes sound as if the horse is intentionally ignoring or disobeying what the handler or rider is asking.

But why would that be? Could it be that the horse does not understand what we want? Or is it more likely that the horse is just not motivated to do it right now?

If the horse is accustomed to experiencing correction when he gets things wrong, could it be that he is not motivated to try, for fear of making a mistake?

Could it be that he is actually so distracted, attending to other things in his world, that he can’t actually hear what you are asking anyway?

Could it be that responding to what you ask could in fact result in some pain or discomfort for the horse? Could responding result in him having to move away from something he is very attracted to, such as his friends, his hay, or the safety of home? Or would it mean going towards something he finds worrying? So is something more motivating – attractive or repellent – working against you and what you have to offer?

What two things do we need to be able to train horses?

In order to train any animal – horse, hound, husband, hamster or hippopotamus – we need a minimum of two things. We need both communication and we need motivation.

Communication is about having a way of explaining to the horse what it is that you would like him to do.

Motivation has to do with convincing him that it is worth doing. But it’s also about keeping his attention so that he is not distracted by other things that could deplete his motivation to stay focused on the trainer and what she has to offer.

So motivation encompasses two aspects – it is both about having the horse want to do what you want, and having him not feel a stronger urge to do things you don’t want, instead.

Communicating and motivating using positive reinforcement – rewards

Training equines using positive reinforcement involves explaining what you want the horse to do, using non-aversive ways to cause the horse to choose to perform the behaviour, and then marking and giving a reward for tries in the right direction. It’s the addition of the reward that makes it positive reinforcement – the positive meaning that something desirable is “added” in this context.

We then gradually improve the performance in stages. That could include increasing the amount of time the horse can do whatever it might be, or the distance from which he can be asked to do it, or some other qualitative dimension such as energy, enthusiasm, relaxation or posture. Once we have the behaviour beginning to happen reliably that way, we can introduce a cue, which is a signal that tells the animal precisely what behaviour will be rewarded. Once we have behaviour on cue, we can get that behaviour again in the future, just by using that cue.

This part of the process is largely about how we explain to the horse what we want – so the communication has to do with having a way to first show him what to do and then getting it on cue so that we can communicate what we want again in the future. All the while making it worth his while to do it by using rewards – things he likes – for his efforts. Once he learns to like doing that behaviour because it feels good to do it, we can fade out the food or scratches – the things that kick-start the behaviour (without kicking of course 😉 because once the horse learns to like that behaviour he will want to do it for its own sake and we can randomly and periodically top up that feeling with a thank-you bridge and treat.

For example, we can form behaviour by using a target prop, which shows the horse where to be and / or how to move himself. We can use any object as a target to teach the horse to stand still. One way to do that is to teach him to stand on something such as a mat. Or we can teach him to put his nose on something in front of him, such as a Jolly ball, and gradually increase the time he can spend doing this. I teach horses to touch a tie ring or I hang something on the tie ring to teach them to keep their nose near or on that target for an increasing amount of time, in preparation for teaching them to stand quietly and calmly when tied.

Both kinds of targets show the horse where to be to get rewarded – either by having his nose on or near something, or his feet in a specific place.

Horses are very object-focused and naturally investigate new objects in their environment, which means that when they spot something they have not seen before they will be drawn to investigate it. They do this as part of natural investigative behaviour, the purpose of which is for the horse to work out what is good, what is bad and what is neither. It’s the way we all have of deciding how to classify objects and situations and events for future reference. Targeting makes use of the natural tendency of the horse to take an interest in and investigate novel objects with nose and feet. No pressure is required – we just mark and reward the first attempts at investigation and shape the behaviour in small increments from there.

Too long....continued next post.....


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## Hondo

Targets give the horse a good reason to move or put himself somewhere in space. The bridge signal – the marker we use to say “Yes! That’s it!” to the horse – gives him information about the moment in time he did something we want more of.

That marker – for which you can use a clicker, a whistle, a tongue cluck or any unique, short sharp sound made with your voice – is called a bridging stimulus or bridge for short, because it bridges the small time lapse between when we mark the behaviour or the “try” that we like, and the moment we deliver the reward. It buys us time between the exact moment when the behaviour happened and the moment we can deliver a reward and it makes for a very precise mechanism for communication – letting the horse know exactly which behaviours and emotions we want more of. We can use that signal at a distance or when riding or long lining – when we aren’t right next to the horse – to mark the precise moment in a stream of behaviour. The horse learns in literally minutes, to repeat what he was doing when we bridged, and that the treat or scratch will follow.

The target is the way we have to communicate – to explain to the horse where we would like him to be and being bridged and rewarded for going to or staying at or following a target motivates the horse to do so again, for what he has to gain.

We can also use a target to teach a horse to move – he can follow a target held by a person – forwards, backwards, left or right, up or down – and he can be taught to move along a line or circle of targets on his own. This can help us to teach the horse non-aversive, no-pressure cues for each of the gaits – walk, trot, canter for example, or to halt. We can also use targets to teach the horse to respond to rein cues for turning or for lateral or vertical flexion, for lateral movement, for straightness, or to form biomechanically healthy posture when moving. An example of that would be the use of a target to teach the horse to stretch down and forwards when ridden.

The other way to form behaviour so that we can mark and reinforce it is by setting up a situation in the environment of the horse so that the behaviour we want is the one the horse is most likely to perform (without using pressure to create that situation). This is usually called free shaping. There is no way to show the animal how to do what we want – we just set the environment up so that it is most likely to occur.

So for example, pole work can be used to help the horse to learn to stretch down and forwards or to pick his feet up more or to be relaxed about jumping. When he is learning to go over poles or a small jump because he wants to go towards a target rather than to move away from – to escape or avoid – pressure, his emotional state can also be more relaxed and his posture will tend to match.

Training the horse to ignore distractions – things that compete for his motivation

Force-free, positive reinforcement (reward) based training also involves desensitising the horse to all the things that might compete for what we have to offer as a motivator. A horse will be interested in doing what we ask if there is something he can gain by doing it, but he will also weigh up the value of that relative to other things in the environment that he has to deal with.

A horse is going to be much more willing and mentally and emotionally able to respond to our cues if he is not distracted by other things in the environment that he might find frightening or worrying or annoying, or indeed more interesting and attractive!

Force-free training involves introducing the horse, without restraint, to new, potentially frightening – and therefore attention grabbing – things at very low strength, allowing him to become totally confident with something at that “hardly anything at all” strength before gradually increasing the intensity, all the while making sure that the horse is aware of but does not feel the need to move away from the stimulus.

Strength can include distance, size, noise level, position in relation to the horse, touch or smell sensation, general energy level or commotion. One small dog standing quietly 10 yards ahead might be a weak stimulus. Three big dogs barking and running up behind him is likely to be way too strong a stimulus for a horse that is wary of dogs.

Adding positive reinforcement into that process of confidence building, can, if used appropriately, have the horse associate good things with new stimuli and events that might otherwise be frightening, or to stimuli and events that we know are distressing for our horse.

If the horse discovers that whenever a particular type of event happens or whenever he encounters new things, then good stuff happens, it can change the horse’s expectations from skepticism and wariness, to enthusiasm and eager anticipation of new or existing experiences. It can actually change how he feels about the process and prospect of encountering new things as well as of the new things themselves.

A horse that is not distracted by things coming and going in his environment is going to be much more easily able to focus on what you are trying to communicate and much more interested in the motivators you have to offer. So training horses to ignore irrelevant distractions is key to keeping the horse focused on you and on the task in hand.

Motivation trumps communication

I would go so far as to say that motivation trumps communication every time. You can communicate all you like and you can be great at it, but if there’s nothing in it for the horse to listen, or the horse isn’t listening anyway because he is too distracted, why would he do anything you ask at all?

And the horse that is super-motivated, calm and focused is the best kind to have because even if you aren’t great at explaining what you want, or he needs to put a little effort into guessing something, he will try, because he is optimistic that it will lead to a reward eventually.

How does pressure motivate and release teach?

By contrast, when we use pressure to communicate what we want, and relief from that pressure to motivate the animal to perform behaviour, he acts to escape or avoid that aversive stimulus or event. Escape or avoidance of aversives is not psychologically and neurologically rewarding for a horse, and although sometimes people who advocate the use of pressure to get behaviour might instruct you to “reward” the slightest try by removing or reducing a pressure stimulus, the reality is that removal or escape or avoidance of pressure is not experienced in the brain of the horse as a reward.

Relief is probably the best term to use for what we feel when we are successful in escaping or avoid something we dislike.

Pressure motivates in two ways. When we apply an aversive stimulus, the horse is naturally motivated to want to escape it and move away from it because he finds it unpleasant and wants it to stop. The horse will act and keep trying different things until something he does results in him getting away from or otherwise making the aversive experience stop.

Aversives motivate the horse to act to be free of them. A horse swishing his tail to get a fly off him is motivated to do so to get rid of the fly because the fly is annoying and also because he knows from experience that it may bite, causing pain, if he doesn’t.

A horse moving back when he is tapped on the chest with a stick is motivated to do so to make the tapping stop because it is annoying or painful.

A head-shy horse moving away when a person reaches for his head is motivated to do so because he dislikes being touched or fears what might happen if he is touched or if the human comes closer.

Once the horse works out that it is his action of moving backwards that made the tapping with the stick stop, he will move away again next time he is tapped on the chest with a stick. This is because he learns quite quickly how to make the tapping stop.

This is called escape learning. The horse learns to move to escape the actual aversive he is experiencing.

Then, after a little while he will notice what happens before he gets tapped on the chest to make him back up. He will look for signs that the tapping on his chest is about to happen, because he will learn that he will be tapped if he doesn’t back up when he sees that signal. And he will begin to back up when he sees that signal, to avoid being tapped. This is called avoidance learning. The horse backs up because he learns that by doing so when he sees the signal that tapping is about to happen, he can avoid being tapped on the chest with the stick.

When he accomplishes escape from (he moves when being tapped) or avoidance (he moves because he thinks he will be tapped if he doesn’t) of the aversive, and obtains relief from that, that in turn motivates the animal to perform the behaviour that led to that outcome – the aversive ceasing. This is because all of us, horses included, value aversives (and things that predict them) when they stop.

With positive reinforcement, instead of showing the horse where not to be (“don’t be here where I am tapping if you don’t want to be tapped”), we show the horse where TO be. “I will mark and reward any attempt you make to go towards or touch this target. Now I will place the target a bit closer to your chest and if you shift your weight back a little to reach it I will mark and reward that, and if you step back to reach it I’ll mark and reward that too!” Pretty soon, the horse is taking nice confident biomechanically healthy steps of back up, following a target, and we can begin to introduce a cue for that behaviour and fade out the target and gradually increase the number of steps the horse can take once cued to back up. Horses trained in this way begin to very quickly learn to perform behaviours because of what they have to gain, rather than because of what they can escape or avoid.

Why do horses ignore us?

Now, when we are asking for the back up – and this is true whether we are teaching it using bridge and target training (giving cues) or aversives (giving commands) – the horse can easily be distracted by something else that might come into his world. If it is distracting for more than a moment or two, it will almost certainly work against what we have to offer by way of motivation.

If the horse fails to respond, and appears to ignore our cue or command, there could be several reasons for that, but they are almost always to do with motivation and rarely to do with communication.

It could be that responding would be aversive to him – frightening or painful, for example – more aversive than enduring either the aversive he is experiencing from being tapped on the chest or aversive enough to cancel out the motivating value of the reward on offer for following the target, depending on which we use.

Imagine if the horse had joint or back pain or an injury that made backing up difficult for him.

What if there is something behind the horse that he is worried about and does not want to be any nearer to?

Imagine that the horse is being backed away from something he’d rather stay close to – such as home, or another horse friend he does not want to be parted from, or his dinner?

What if he is suddenly really frightened by something else that comes into the environment and he has to give it his immediate and undivided attention?

In all these situations a horse might appear not to be listening because he may not respond immediately, or at all, or he might appear to be unmotivated because he does not put in any effort, or a lower amount of effort than we would like.

All of these things are about motivation – rather than communication. There are the things that the horse fears could get worse if he does respond to the tapping on his chest, or he is so distracted by some other potential threat that he does not even notice that he is being tapped, or even that a target is there for him to move towards.

When horses are afraid, two things happen – one is that they produce cortisol – the stress hormone, and the other is that they also produce adrenalin – the hormone that mobilises us physiologically for flight or fight. Some of the things adrenalin does are to dull pain sensation, to mobilise muscles to run or for combat and to cause us to focus on the one most important thing in the world right now to the exclusion of others – and that will be whatever we perceive as the threat. The biological function of the dulling of the pain sensation is so that in a life and death situation we will run away or fight, even when we have some pain from injury or disease, because it gives us a greater chance of escape and therefore survival.

Imagine the usual way of loading horses into trailers – which is to use some form of pressure and release. If the horse fears being in the trailer, is afraid to put his feet on the wobbly ramp, he has had bad experiences before when being loaded or being in or travelling in a trailer, or bad experiences on arriving somewhere on a trailer. All of these past bad experiences will compete in his mind as motivators to stay away from the trailer, with what we have to offer for going in there. And if we are using pressure to load him, all we have to offer is relief from pressure, by reducing or removing the pressure being applied, when he makes any attempt to go towards or in the trailer.

Imagine a horse that is experiencing some as yet undiagnosed pain in his legs or back. Imagine we have a horse that is quite unfit and we are asking him to move with energy on a difficult deep arena surface. We might find that he is difficult to motivate using pressure, to make smooth transitions through the gaits or to maintain gait. We might find that we need to use a lot of pressure to keep this kind of horse going or to motivate him to move at all. We might be able to add more pressure to cause him to move but as soon as that pressure comes off, he falls back to trot or walk or to his sluggish gait.

This can be because the pain or discomfort from the extra effort he is experiencing to move in this situation, is something he feels as a cost for the effort he makes to move to avoid or escape the aversive from us.

When he performs the cost-benefit analysis that determines his motivation to move, he might just say “no” or put in a lack-lustre effort because the pain or effort of moving is greater than the pain or discomfort of the pressure from the rider or handler.

Horses like this tend to make just as much effort as is necessary to escape or avoid the aversive coming both from the human and the environment or from within their own body – and no more. Adding more pressure does not make all of the other competing motivations disappear. A horse that moves at all in that situation can just be moving because it’s worse for him if he doesn’t.

So while he might “hear” your command to move, he might remain unmotivated to do so for many different reasons of his own that we might not even be aware of.

When we are asking horses to move using rewards, the exact same things can happen and the remedy is the same – if we want to get the behaviour we need to increase the value of the reinforcer which means making the reward value greater and building up a history of good experiences in that context. But we get a much clearer idea that something is working against us when we are training with food and other rewards than with pressure.

And we should always always eliminate pain, disease or discomfort as reasons for poor motivation or unwanted behaviour, because they will always work against any motivator we try to use.

If any behaviour is difficult to maintain or is not getting better no matter what we do – then we can know for sure that something is punishing it. Something is detracting from the value of what we have to offer. And this is true whether we are using relief from pressure (negative reinforcement) or we are providing rewards as a motivator.

When we train with positive reinforcement, without threats of pressure, restraint or force, we really do get to see a lot of the truth about how the horse really feels about doing something.

We really get a much clearer insight into what is detracting from what we have to offer as a motivator, whether that is mental, emotional or physical discomfort.

When we teach horses to learn to ignore irrelevant distractions using slow, low level exposure (systematic desensitisation) and counter-conditioning (associating good things, such as high value food rewards) to stimuli and events and situations that might give the horse cause for concern, we can completely alter the perception the horse has of those situations or stimuli. We can change how he feels about them. And when he does not feel the need to be worried, or to prepare himself to flee or fight, he will be able to focus on what we are asking, completely.

If we put effort into getting a good history of positive reinforcement as we teach the behaviours we want, and if we teach the horse how to find a relaxed, confident, focused emotional state, without using pressure, and reward him with things he will be keen to work to gain, then what we are asking will be the only thing that he will want to pay attention to. Because doing so will be worth it, for what’s in it for him. The best communication between horse and human takes place without the use of aversives, and the best motivation – and the one that feels good to all of us – is the motivation to work for what we can gain, not for what we can avoid.

That’s Horse Charming.


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## SueC

Hello @*Hondo* ! :wave:

I'm out of brain juice this morning and will revisit your last two posts to give them justice, when my brain is better. I was going to tease you about training hamsters, but that's beside the point. I just had one thing that occurred to me when I started reading your post. And it's a thing about humans...



Hondo said:


> In order to train any animal – horse, hound, husband, hamster or hippopotamus – we need a minimum of two things. We need both communication and we need motivation.
> 
> Communication is about having a way of explaining to the horse what it is that you would like him to do.
> 
> Motivation has to do with convincing him that it is worth doing. But it’s also about keeping his attention so that he is not distracted by other things that could deplete his motivation to stay focused on the trainer and what she has to offer.


This is great. I'd just add something...

_Communication is about having a way of explaining to the horse what it is that you would like him to do..._

...and asking him what he would like to do, and what he thinks about all that etc. inkunicorn: :Angel:

It's funny how some of your students (and this is typical of humans) think the relationship with their horse needs improving so that the horse will listen to them / do what they want:

_Very often the first thing people say is that they’d like a better relationship with their horse and usually when I ask what that means *they say that they wished their horse would listen to them more or they complain that they don’t seem to be able to get through to their horse or to communicate with him.*
_ 
rofl: How many marriage counsellors hear this all the time about spouses?)

If they want to improve the relationship - any relationship - horse, human, hamster, armadillo etc - then listening is so much more important than talking, and trying to understand their perspective is so much more helpful than _imposing_ their own ideas etc.

One of the best sayings I ever heard in my 20s, which has stuck with me, was this: 

_"You have one mouth and two ears. Remember to use them in that proportion."_

By the way, our donkeys have very very long ears - especially Benjamin, one of the new ones (left) - and they spend a lot of time listening... they like to know what's going on, they like music (both recorded and live), they like having sweet nothings whispered in their ears, and they really like if you scratch the insides of their ears with your fingers...


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> This is great. I'd just add something...
> 
> Communication is about having a way of explaining to the horse what it is that you would like him to do...
> 
> ...and asking him what he would like to do, and what he thinks about all that etc.


All that is thoroughly covered in the article and so much more.

The one big thing I took away from the article as I contemplated it yesterday was this:

Rewards of any kind, treats, scratches, praise, are experienced in the brain with releases of dopamine. Drug addicts they believe become mostly hooked on huge dopamine releases. Humans and horses and likely most animals seek dopamine releases. Temple Grandin in one of her books said the release of dopamine is not caused by the actual receipt of the reward but by seeking the reward and the expectation of the reward. Seeking is one of the five basic emotions she discusses in one book.

Cortisol, on the other hand, is a stress hormone that readies horses, and us and other animals, for fight or flight.

Cortisol is released during pressure/release training no matter how gentle the pressure. Although the release is popularly referred to as a reward, the horse never experiences a release of dopamine so neurologically it is not a reward. At best, as the article comments, it can only be regarded as a relief.

And here is the really biggie that clicked in my mind. It goes back to an old old controversial thread I started a few years ago about ask, tell, demand.

After the horse is trained by pressure/release, no matter how advanced the horse is trained in terms of lightness, even if it only takes a feather breath of pressure, cortisol will continue to be the hormone released in the brain. It will never be dopamine.

Cortisol interferes with learning and memory. Cortisol increases flightiness and nervousness in it's preparation for self defense.

Dopamine has a calming effect. Well, it might cause them to be anxious to get that treat in their mouth but they're not nervous about it. Dopamine increases learning potential and memory abilities.

Perhaps yall are long long on top of all this but it is new to me when put together this way and to me has huge huge huge implications for training horses and people and far far beyond.


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## Hondo

As a shorter summarization I would suggest:

Cortisol based learning becomes cortisol based knowledge.

Dopamine based learning becomes dopamine based knowledge.


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## Hondo

The long article I was so excited about that I posted above is actualy the last of a series of "Recent Posts" listed on the right side of https://horse-charming.com/ homepage.

I have begun slowly reading and contemplating those recent posts one at a time. To me, they are becoming very detailed and methodical descriptions of positive or appetitive training or teaching.

I do see they are a business entity but without any appearance of "scammyness" to my reading. Fees seem reasonable. Beyond that, they are providing considerable free education/information to those interested, (that would be me).

There will need to be a lot lot more reading and research before this becomes a direction I become committed to but it is a direction I have felt existed since finding Hondo and feel very much compelled in this direction.


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## gottatrot

Very good stuff.

Regarding using a target as a bridge - what I find the easiest and most effective for me is using my voice. I have noticed some others do this when they post their videos on here. Once a horse understands your "good" voice and "bad" voice, I think it can be used as a very good training tool for the horse. For one thing, getting the timing of the reward perfect is easy with your voice. When riding if you don't have a tool like that it is difficult to mark good behaviors. Which is why pressure/release is used so much.

I use my good voice often enough when giving a treat during the non-working times that the horses relate it to positive things and believe it can be used for dopamine-based learning. 

An example is that I was marking the good cantering on my last ride, to encourage Hero to try hard to use his body to make smooth transitions rather than hopping around. It was very obvious to me that he was trying to earn that reward, because whenever he picked up a good one I was making me voice very pleased and releasing all pressure so he could see this was the behavior I wanted. His whole body language was "trying," with ears perked back, and focused on the task.


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## egrogan

Hondo said:


> As a shorter summarization I would suggest:
> 
> Cortisol based learning becomes cortisol based knowledge.
> 
> Dopamine based learning becomes dopamine based knowledge.


YES! I know we're talking horses here, but I attended an excellent training earlier this fall that really drove this home ("excellent" and "training" rarely go together in my professional experience :wink. The seminar focused on the neuroscience of learning, presented for teachers, instructional coaches and teacher educators. I'm embarrassed to admit I'm one of those former teachers who had no basic knowledge of neuroscience when I was in the classroom, and I'm afraid my students suffered for it. Particularly compounded as a young white teacher in a school attended by students of color...

From Zaretta Hammond, author of _Culturally Responsive Teaching and the Brain_:


> What happens if you don’t feel safe or cared for? Ain’t no learning happening. The flood of stress hormones like _cortisol_ divert blood from the pre-frontal cortex to the amygdala, an almond-shaped organ in our reptilian brain, in preparation for fight or flight. Not the time for learning.





> ...neuroscience reminds us that relationships are the on-ramp to learning, meaning if a student doesn't feel heard or seen, then it leads to increased stress. Stress hormones like cortisol impair the brain's executive function. So in order to create a learning environment conducive to all students learning, we need to lower stress hormones by building those relationships.


It makes so much sense...and yet, how often is it the starting point when teaching highly social creatures like horses, kids, chickens, and on and on? :chicken2:


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## Hondo

I was thinking about the ideas of reward only training and some of the articles I've read while riding with Hondo today. I was very conscious of all the aversives being used even though not harsh, still aversive. Hondo did a lot of grazing while I did a lot of thinking. He obviously responds to only pressure/release aversives as that is all he has been trained with.

Funny, we were stopped at one of his favorite grazing areas, (all native grasses), where Minnehaha gets very narrow with a short steep bark on each side. When we got ready to leave crossing the easiest place, Hondo decided there was something he just had to have with his head stuck way way down. He was resisting my soft aversives so I got really harsh, like beating him with a bag of marshmellows, and he said, "Oh, in a hurry huh? Hang on!" as he flat foot leaped across the creek and hopped up the side. I realize horses are just not supposed to be that intelligent and cunning but if there were a way to prove it, I'd give big odds he did it for the effect on me. He's a pretty good trainer. Better than I.

RE: Regarding using a target as a bridge

Comment: I'll need to do some more reading to be clear, but what I got out of what I read was that a clicker, or in fact the voice, was used as a bridge TO the target, whether the target was an object or a target behavior. The bridge being a notification that a behavior occurred that would eventually be followed by a reward. I think that was what you were indicating when you said you used the voice when giving treats. I've read in the past that was "charging the clicker" or in this case voice.

But my understanding is the horse is performing an act in order to recieve a reward and the bridge acts as a yes! to that target behavior. Disclaimer-I don't really know what I'm talking about But I'm learning.

RE2: he was trying to earn that reward,.....................releasing all pressure so he could see this was the behavior I wanted

Comment: The people on the Horse Charming site seem to be very very explicit that a release of pressure is not experienced as a reward in the horses brain. They stress that all pressure or discomfort or irritation no matter how slight is accompanied by the fight or flight cortisol release in the brain and that the release of the pressure is at most experienced in the brain as *relief*.

I'm not taking a position at this point, only reporting what they say.

They claim that the only time an action is experienced as a reward in the brain with the release of dopamine is when the action is either spontaneous or is performed for purposes of seeking a reward with no aversive precursor with a reward happening when the action is performed, or a bridge to that reward.

They say the bridge has to be periodically "recharged" or it will eventually lose it's effectiveness. They say it is the same with pressure/release when a precursor to pressure such as lifting the reins indicates an immanent pressure that they respond to avoid the pressure before it happens, but eventually they will need to be again reminded that if they don't do what lifting reins precursors, the pressure will indeed follow.

Here is a quote from another article: https://horse-charming.com/2017/10/31/verbal-cues-threat-or-treat/

So now, assuming our horse is doing what we want, and having taken the pressure off, we verbally praise our horse, then the praise comes to signify a period of time during which the horse will not be subjected to anything aversive (at least for a second or two, or however long it is before we ask him to do something different, or he stops doing the commanded behaviour).

And another quote from another article: https://horse-charming.com/2017/12/06/when-can-i-stop-using-food/

What this means is that when we handle or ride our horses correctly (in this case I mean using negative reinforcement correctly) in traditional riding or using classical or natural horsemanship methods, every movement the horse makes is negatively reinforced either by aversive escape or aversive avoidance.

End Quotes

Hope I'm not annoying. I'm just extremely excited about what I've been reading. It dovetails so much with what I've felt was true but had no clue. Thinking today when riding, how the heck could I get him to do this without pressure????


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## Hondo

We crossed. Thanks for the link on chickens. I admit to being harsh in my youth to the sometimes point of cruelty to both chickens and cows at times. Bonding recently with a cow named Bella has made me look at cows on the same level as horses, to a degree.

So now it's chickens too??!!

And oh yes, although for only 7 years, I'm an ex-teacher also. And oh yes, I could so have used what I've learned now back then. But alas, much of what is known now wasn't even known back then.

RE: if a student doesn't feel heard or seen,

Comment: Bingo! Carl Rogers would agree.

Without the neuroscience of cortisol and dopamine, it may well be that no one would ever have thought about much less attempted to train only under the influence of dopamine.

Since there is not a lot about horses concerning this, I may do some searches on humans like you posted to use for figuring out horses.


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## knightrider

I love these ideas!!! 
Quote by Hondo
[quoteThinking today when riding, how the heck could I get him to do this without pressure????][/quote]

My first husband was an avid sailor and loved to take me out on his sailboat. I always was ready to go in before he wanted to, and he would say things like, "Let's just sail to X, and then we'll go in." Then he bought me a little Laser sailboat and taught me to sail it. He liked to go out with me in the Laser, and I was always ready to go in long before he was ready. Every sail there was pressure to sail a little longer, and no matter how much I wanted to "not mind," I always wanted to go in before he did, and minded having to sail a little longer. It wasn't that I wanted to end spending time with him; I loved being with him. I just didn't love sailing that much.

Then he left me and ended the marriage, and the Laser was all mine on my own. I had become a proficient sailor and could sail it fine on my own. I could not understand why suddenly I did NOT want to go in any more. I was sailing twice as long by myself as when my ex-husband was pressuring me to sail longer. I thought long and hard about this, because I was a school teacher. How could I get my students to love learning? Somehow to NOT pressure them. But how to do that? I never figured it out. I do think that pressure does make humans, and most likely horses, "push back" in a negative way.

This goes along with @gottatrot's post. . . and @egrogan's post. The first couple years of teaching, I was taught to be very firm, not to crack a smile until after Christmas, not to let the students get away with anything, etc. etc. It was awful advice for me. I had a terrible time. As the years passed, I discovered that my teaching style worked far better with me lightening up, telling jokes, having fun with my students, including going to their houses, teaching them to ride my horses, getting to know their families. I wish someone in the beginning had encouraged me to "find my style" rather than demand respect and obedience. I also think it ties in with the lack of pressure, but I never could get away from some pressure while teaching. I wanted my students to "sail their own Lasers" and want to learn, but I couldn't figure out how to do that.


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## Knave

I think it’s great to be excited Hondo! I love those things that speak to me about training horses. Those duh moments that are so spectacularly exciting...  I think a bit more like it is a good idea (what I gathered from you, I will have to actually read the things on the site), but that a combination of both methods would be a good achievement.

It is funny you talk about teaching students. One day it hit me like a brick over the head: a good teacher loves teaching kids like I love teaching horses. The same excitement I get for improvement they should get with a student. The things I take into consideration and the learning I try and keep doing, they should feel the same way.

Now, I don’t think I’ve met many teachers who seemed anything like that in my life. I only remember one teacher who particularly seemed excited to teach me things, and I loved learning from him. I had others I connected with of course, but not in that kind of a way. 

My girls worry about their teachers. They worry if they disappoint them. My oldest even knows all of their personal drama and has great connections to her teachers. This said, they have both had moments where they fell apart over something a teacher said or did. Especially this is true for my oldest with her testing anxiety. She realizes her scores effect her teachers (more dramatically than reality too), and wants only to impress them. I finally told them to relate it to training horses. As long as they were making their best effort the teacher does have a piece required. I can’t get mad at a horse who isn’t learning something I am trying to teach them; it is my responsibility to figure out how to teach them.


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## Hondo

@Knave Your comments take me back a ways. I didn't teach for that many years. I taught mostly high school math. I remember the point at where a student would reach an "aha! i got it!" provided me with an immense pleasure. That's the one thing I have always missed about not teaching.

As far as a student knowing a teachers drama, that gives me pause. I was in a small town where I'd run into parents and students at grocery stores, drugstores, etc. Everyone knew everyone. All parents and students had my phone number. I was close to my students but I would never ever have shared any of my personal drama. That just doesn't seem appropriate, unless I'm not understanding the meaning of personal drama. Even as a parent, I wouldn't do that.

It will take a lot more reading and study for me to do a full fledged approach to apetitive training. I'm sure my communication with Hondo will be primarily aversive pressure/release for some time.

I will start by leading since that's where most seem to start. The procedure seems to be to place an object in with the horse that will create enough curiosity that the horse will go over and touch it with his nose. The object is the target. The horse is rewarded with a treat for touching it. I believe a clicker or a chosen voice bridge is used the very instant the target is touched with the treat following as soon as possible.

A voice command to touch the target is only given after the horse has consistently learned to touch the target to get a treat.

That is one very big difference. Voice commands are only introduced AFTER the behavior is learned. When the voice command is introduced, the command is only associated with a precursor to a treat after the behavior is performed. 

And as training advances, greater and greater times can lapse before an actual treat is recieved, but the bridge, clicker, good boy, yes!, or what ever is chosen as the bridge to the treat should almost always happen at the instant of the behavior.

In this manner, the cue is never ever a demand, not even a request, but more like, "hey, ya wanna treat? do this".

Temple Grandin discusses core emotions termed "Blue Ribbon Emotions" in "Animals Make Us Human". One of those is the seeking emotion. Shes says it is the anticipation of the reward that turns on the release of dopamine in the brain instead of the actual receipt of the reward itself. That the anticipation is seeking. At least that's how I recall it.

So I connected the idea of the associated cue as turning on the seeking circuits in the brain. The horse gets dopamine flooding when the cue is given and the performance is done as a seeking activity. In the pressure/release scenario the cue seems to mean, uh oh, I better do what I'm supposed to do or bad things are going to happen and this worry is accompanied by cortisol release which among other things interferes with learning, coordination, and a bunch of other stuff.

All the above is being written for myself as much as anyone else. When I write things down, it seems to clear up my understanding. I "think" most of what I wrote is correct.


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## Knave

This was my first reaction as well Hondo. Then I thought on it for a while. She was kind of made in a very attentive way. Many of the things she noticed as a very small child were not because she was told, but only because she paid a lot of attention. So, at that point it wasn’t because she was shared with.

As an older child I think she began to be the one who brought these things up with her teachers and then personal relationships developed. I realized that she could have friends who were adults. I didn’t know really why it gave me such a pause to begin with after I thought it through more.


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## AnitaAnne

@Hondo very interesting turn of topic. My methods are similar I do believe but have to study the information and let it more or less seep into my current knowledge to figure out if I am on the same path or slightly different. 

I commonly use phrases like "listen to the horse" and "ask the horse to.." and "hear what the horse is trying to tell you" so effective, understanding communication between horse and human is one of my primary goals for our horse/human partnership. I desire my horse to be just as vested or accommodating of my goals as I am. 


IMO the whole "move the horses feet for respect thing" promoted by many gurus is misguided and wrong. Yes, sometimes a horse needs to move their feet to help them relax, very similar to our pacing when under stress. But _Forced movement _is not a stress reliever IMO. 


Anytime one must use force, it is and should be a last resort for emergencies or when all other methods fail. For example, I had a grade saddlebred once who only had known force and pain. At the beginning, to communicate, I had to use of what he knew to open the door to a new way of interacting. 


My horses, especially my Chivas, freely move around me and they do nudge me for treats. I try very hard to explain to people that visit that my horse is not being "rude" or "disrespectful" by coming into my "space". He is very respectful of me, but more than that I have worked hard to allow him to become friendly and sociable with me! When I purchased him he would turn his face away and move away from me. He was closed off and really uninterested in anything to do with people. But he had such an expressive face, I knew there was a great personality hiding in there. 

Watching him grow and gain confidence has been one of the most fulfilling parts of my life. He is such a great horse, I just love him so much. He is such a joy to me. 

I have always used treats, encouraged my horses to face their fears, and not forced them to do things but to trust me. 

When Chivas tells me something is terrifying out on the trail, I get off and check it out for him and then with him. Sometimes we walk up to it, sometimes we walk past it, then when he is ready to go on I remount. 

I've never ridden with anyone who has said "Oh, how good you are to help your horse with fearful objects" *what I always get is unsolicited advice telling me to "stay on and make him do it". * That is force, and not something I believe in doing except in emergencies. I always have the time to help him gain confidence. 


Too much pressure, especially with sensitive animals/people, causes a loss of trust. 


Wouldn't you rather deal with someone that says "Here, I will show you how to do this" rather than someone that says "Just do it and quit bothering me with your problems"


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## Hondo

@AnitaAnne I've tried to do more or less as you described from day one with Hondo, beginning with our walks on lead where I had treats hidden in a pan.

But the things Horse Charming is doing is so much more. I'm trying to read at least one article each day. It takes me a while as there are many pauses and thinking.

I will mention that one of the people writing posts, https://horse-charming.com/2017/10/07/how-to-horse-without-force/ , starts out by being clear that force free handling of her horse is a goal that she has not yet achieved, but the mere fact that it was indeed a goal changed her entire perception of a horse. (my summary, not hers)

She also introduced a word I'd never seen before. I think it is the German language, and perhaps others, that has a genderless he/she word that is not available in Engilsh.

She wrote s/he when discussing a horse rather than the usual switching between he and she on every other usage.


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## Hondo

Knave said:


> a combination of both methods would be a good achievement.


This sounds like a good approach. I'm one that can tend to go off the deep end and that's not always a good way to set one's self up for success.

I woke up thinking about how the management practices of some companies are developing workplace cultures that allows for more autonomy and what may be seeking behavior that becomes a reward in and of itself, while of course maintaining a certain degree of rules and regulations with associated aversives.

I'll first attempt just leading. Any interactions with horses, or any animals including humans, would seem to be more enjoyable to all when based on apetitive to the degree possible. 

The idea, to me, fits right in with positive thinking and happy attitudes and being thankful for stuff. Those people are much more healthy than those with cortisol constantly coursing through the brain. 

They say worry can kill a person so it can't be that good for a horse either. Plus it just sounds like so much fun to have a horse excited about doing something you want just because s/he gets a charge out of doing it. Which means you're both getting a charge out of it. How great could that be?


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## phantomhorse13

AnitaAnne said:


> IMO the whole "move the horses feet for respect thing" promoted by many gurus is misguided and wrong. Yes, sometimes a horse needs to move their feet to help them relax, very similar to our pacing when under stress. But _Forced movement _is not a stress reliever IMO.


I think this goes back to someone using a different (and less emotionally-charged) phrase for the dominance/pack leader version of animal behavior/training. Being able to make a horse move its feet _is_ an act of dominance, similar to that of a higher-ranked horse moving a lower-ranked one. However, I don't want to be viewed as just another horse!

When crossing a busy road, I wait for a break in traffic because I don't want to be hit. Is that being respectful of the cars or being fearful of being injured by the cars? I think how you answer probably tells a lot about your training philosophy.




AnitaAnne said:


> Too much pressure, especially with sensitive animals/people, causes a loss of trust.


And that is at best.. at worst, it causes one h*ll of a wreck. I think the whole "make them do it" mentality is all about the human's ego and nothing to do with what is best for the horse.



While I am all about using as much reward-based training as possible, I am not sure that using _only_ that method is realistic. I think there are a lot of levels to pressure and that having to deal with (hopefully) mild pressure in a general training situation is not detrimental to the horse or one's relationship with him/her. A good friend of mine once told me that training/trust was like pennies in a jar. Every interaction, a penny was either put in or it was taken out. The goal was to have pennies in the jar at the end of the day. I thought that was a pretty good explanation of how trust is formed.


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> While I am all about using as much reward-based training as possible, I am not sure that using only that method is realistic.


This is something I am, and will be for a while, wrestling with. That said, the last article I read was "Poisoned Cue or Poisoned You?" and it did give me pause, particularly the last 1/4th or so.

I have not read how to mix and match aversive and apetitive but there are a few suggestions how not to do it. And in particular not to have the horse associate the same cue with the possibility of both an aversive and apetitive action. "Supposed" to cause confusion and hesitancy, according to the author. 

The authors do seem very knowledgeable but I take nothing ever on face value. BTW, the term Poisoned Cue was first termed by the person who first developed the clicker.

I'm thinking my first attempt will just be training to approach a target on cue and then leading while trying not to use any cues including body language that I've used previously with leading.

See how that goes and go from there. I have not read where anyone has completed an endurance event on apetitive cues and training only.


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## Knave

I’ve been thinking on this. Bones, I believe, is as much a horse that does things because he wants to as any one could find (well, one that does things lol). I can let him out of the pen naked, he trots over to the tack room, and waits for me. It makes it easy as I catch other horses. He will go to his spot whatever that may be in the moment. 

If I ask him to run a reining pattern he does it because he knows what is coming. He loves the petting and reward, and he aims to please. He can work anything bridleless, and even worked the mechanical cow all alone.

He is funny and seriously smart. That said, I didn’t only use rewards to train him. There was a lot of that, and a lot of taking his emotions into context. However, as any relationship I have, it wasn’t all of the time 100% roses from either of us. We have our bad days both. He is a lesson in abnormal psychology.


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## Knave

I had to get proof!


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## Hondo

You did not HAVE to get proof! We all believed, but the picture is great. Working a cow brideless would make an awesome video! How did he know where you wanted the cow to be put.

Running to the tack room and waiting makes me so envious! With Hondo's past, I'm not sure that could ever be achieved.

Your training methods sounds like good examples to be emulated.


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## Knave

Ugh, I had a big response and it disappeared. 

I am nothing to be emulated.  Bones is just special. As a self-mutilator pain meant something different to him, and he is spectacularly dull, so release only was so motivational. I had to learn him inside and out, and he learned me.

He is extremely emotional and needy. He loves being my friend, and he loves learning. He is super smart too. When it comes to cows and work he can quickly figure out the job and what I’m trying to accomplish. We forgive each other our weaknesses. 

He is uber athletic. It is too bad he cannot mentally process town. He would have been quite a competitor. I guess sometimes something is just for us.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> I have not read where anyone has completed an endurance event on apetitive cues and training only.


That would certainly be something to see! And I have no doubt many people feel endurance riders don't train their crazy horses using any method at all. :wink:


I would be interested in seeing someone train the average horse using only positive methods and _not_ wind up hurt along the way. Even if the horse isn't being malicious, they are big and can do things to us that could hurt without even meaning it. Is redirection enough to extinguish those behaviors? I pondered this as I worked with Raven a bit earlier, as he is extremely mouthy. I do my best to ignore him when he is only using lips, but when teeth put in an appearance, he gets a sharp EH and find himself poked by whatever he was trying to nibble. I can't be upsetting him too badly as he doesn't move his feet and is generally right back to it within minutes (if not moments).

Does one have to put aside all goals in order to use only positive methods? Because I would either be pinched/bruised/bleeding and finished tacking up if I ignored him or else would still be trying to redirect his behavior to something else instead of tacking up. I guess I am not patient enough for that when there are other things I can do to extinguish the behavior. Perhaps we all have a scale in our heads of just how much negative methods are acceptable/reasonable to us.

@Knave : those pics are fantastic - talk about a horse that loves his job!!


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## Hondo

phantomhorse13 said:


> is generally right back to it within minutes (if not moments).


Interesting! About all I know this is what I read or hear. The Charmers claim a horse does nothing voluntarily unless there is a reward established either from the past or present.

As I type, I'm remembering in one article it was discussed that horses sometimes use nipping to initiate play. I took that to mean like a dog going down on his front end with his hinney up in the air.

In the discussion it was suggested that sometimes a handler hitting the horse could be viewed as a play response and rewarding to the horse. They also mentioned that when biting was established to be rewarding from the past, ignoring it would not make it go away.

I don't remember the recommendation they gave in the article or which article it was. I'll do some digging.

If he is regarding your painful response as a typical painful and rewarding response from a playmate, perhaps having him do something that you know he really detests would be a better deterrent.

The Charmers do reserve positive punishment for certain cases, and I've forgotten that also.

I need to start taking notes along with the article name.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> it was discussed that horses sometimes use nipping to initiate play.
> 
> In the discussion it was suggested that sometimes a handler hitting the horse could be viewed as a play response and rewarding to the horse.


I suspect he is looking for treats, as he goes for pockets first. And I agree he has also likely learned that it gets him attention, which is why I try to ignore it when I can. And when I can't, I do my best to make it seem like he poked himself on the edge of the hoofpick that just happened to be in the hand on top of the pocket he was nipping at (versus doing the good old swing and miss routine that can often happen). I do make the EH sound though, which maybe is a reward in terms of attention. Tomorrow, I will have to see if just the correction without the sound makes any difference in his persistence.

I also may well just cross tie him, as that limits his ability to turn and nibble. I just haven't yet because I wanted to be sure he understood tying first! I am sure people will point out that isn't doing a thing to extinguish the behavior, but sure seems smarter to me to stop the problem before it starts if I can.


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## Hondo

Hey! I just got an idea if the nipping is to get a treat. Might work, might not. What would be a taste that horses detest? I don't know but I'm betting you may. So cover some treats with it and offer the good treats to him but when he decides to just take one, give him the bitter pill. Castor oil maybe?

I'd probably accompany the bitter pill with a NO! and the good pill with a G'boy!

It's been rainy and I've read a few more articles. All except one I have read skirts around or does not even mention riding out. The one that does says it's especially important to do adequate desensitization for anything that could be encountered. Personally, I have no use for desensitization.

There is a large D7 Catapillar Buldozer that sits near the corrals where the horses are fed some most mornings and nights. About 18 at present. They, including Hondo at that time, saw the buldozer 2x365 per year for years. We were doing some work with it about 3/4 mile from the corrals and it was left at the intersection with another ranch road.

When I rode Hondo to within sight of it he went backwards and sideways and it took some time looking at it before we were finally able to safely continue. 

This is a very good example of what Temple Grandin teaches about seeing in pictures in a ultra specific way without generalizing that an item can be in different places. There is absolutely no way to desensitize for that.

The first two or three months that I was riding Hondo, right after I decided to use a Cook's on him we were riding past the herd of then 23 horses when something spooked them. Half went on one side of use and half on the other. Within 6 feet or less. I, greener than green with a Cook's, contained Hondo in perhaps a 20 foot circle until the horses had gone and Hondo was somewhat settled.

Hondo had of course been trained with the typical pressure/release and ridden that way for years as he still is.

It will take a lot more information than I've read so far to convince me there is a 100% positive training that could have kept Hondo from joining the herd with me on his back.

MRI studies of the horse's brain show that they have one circuit that we do not have. It is a direct circuit from the feet to the brain where it takes a little longer for the threat to be processed and realized. They don't think at first. They are not made that way. In about 100 feet or so their brain can kick in. That's about the time Hondo stops and looks back to see if anything is chasing him.

To over ride that situation I think a guy just has to know the horse, the horse him, plus a bunch of force. Like grabbing a friend by the shoulder forcefully to save him. If there is no bridle or reins, positive reinforcement training in those two situations just, "ain't gonna cut it!"

All that said, I do like the site and will continue reading as I do believe it can be helpful in doing more to encourage relaxation and dopamine's healthful releases.

It's gonna be a work in progress. But as I read, I can see where I've been doing a lot of it already.


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## Hondo

Same tree different day. A mammal and a bird. They almost look related. Maybe sprung from the same genetic tree way back yonder?


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## gottatrot

Great pictures!

I've often pondered over the idea of using only positive reinforcement in training, and some of the points @phantomhorse13 brings up. I like the idea of it, and can believe that some have actually managed it. 

However, something I think about...I don't think we can be 100% natural in our treatment of horses. But at the same time, how do horses deal with each other "naturally" when they bite or try to initiate unwanted play? They don't ignore, they usually use a hard reprimand. So sometimes I think that giving a reprimand is very easy for a horse to understand. It's not the same in my mind as teaching a horse a new thing with positive reinforcement, but rather you are letting the horse know boundaries in a very natural way. Is that wrong?


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## Hondo

@gottatrot No, I don't think it's wrong. I'm doing a lot of thinking in this area. Don't know where I'll wind up. It's a dilemma.

The horses are not free in the wild. They must submit to the demands of the group or be eaten. I was really frustrated with Hondo today and the predator came out in me when leading him and he was barging ahead. I stopped and told him to back up. He just looked at me and I whacked him in the chest with the reins, from the ground. He backed up and said, " I'm sorry" by walking along perfectly with a loose lead.

Every time I have ever done something like that he makes be feel so bad by being so good.

He was not wanting to be saddled today but I did anyhow. It soon became clear that he was feeling off.

We returned with me feeling frustrated until I got my head straight. I had left with an agenda and my agenda got interrupted.

So I decided to go back to the beginning. We went for a hand walk with the lead looped over his back and me just following along by his side where ever he went. I really enjoyed that.

I cannot see ever riding any horse where I ride without a bridle and rein of some type. But I'd still like, "i think" to play with more positive reinforcement training. So what I'm thinking about is to have two complete sets of cues. For positive steering cue I'm thinking of using the mane with the reins available when needed. As long as the cues are added after the behavior is learned with apetitive training, then the precursor cue should be able to be used when learned and not confuse with the aversive cue.

That's what I'm thinking today anyhow. Who knows where I'll end up.

I walked up to the end of my wonderful gnarly trail project the other day and decided this is all about me and nothing to do with Hondo. I put the fence back in place and have determined that is the end of my trail projects.

This is a huge shift in direction for me as trail searches and resurrection has bee my main recreation for 20 years now. But I didn't have Hondo then. So now when I go riding with Hondo it'll be about and only about riding with Hondo other than keeping track of Roman.

I still do tend to think that most reprimands, for horses or kids, fall back on the reprimander. But reprimanders are never perfect and at times a reprimand could be much better than to reward something that would ultimately cause a problem for the horse or kid.

If we were omnipotent and could see all the future we might be able to avoid all correction, (ie, punishment). But we're only human.

I'm beginning to rattle. I'd better stop.


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## Knave

I think that’s what I mean by balance @gottatrot! I have to be able to punish a horse in the way he expects, but I do try and teach in a way that is positive and motivational.


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## Knave

I don’t think that was wrong at all since he understood @Hondo! I will sometimes do the same, and did it with Cash the other day when he randomly started throwing a tantrum while I was leading him. Hindsight was that it was a bit funny, but I still think my response was correct.

I know a trick though for the problem you had. Turn and go the other way. If every time he gets a bit pushy you do something unexpected he kind of has to start paying attention. He’ll be thinking you are an odd duck, and he has to focus or you might pull his head in the other direction. Lol


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## Hondo

I think it is important that the punishment when and if used is not viewed by the horse as a random status attack that horses sometimes do.

That said, I lean towards the notion that there is always a reason.

The Supracor saddle pad that is used has a very high ridge down the center which is good. It keeps the pad way up off the skin in the center. But stuff can get back in there and then work down the side of the pad and under the portion the bar sets on.

The last ride I was laying in the grass with a log for a pillow while Hondo foraged on some native grass and Roman looked for things to terrorize. Hondo was crashing around under low lying tree limbs and today when I pulled the saddle after our aborted ride, he had four lumps, two fair sized. I think he was wanting the saddle off.

I need to stuff something at the front of the pad to keep that from happening. So if I'd noticed that before saddling him, the barging may have not happened. But alas, I'm not omnipotent. The bumps are toward the front in the worst possible area so I guess we'll do some hand walking until it heals up.


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## Hondo

And now, assuming the role of Devil's Advocate, I ask the following:

If, under certain circumstances, it is in fact not wrong for us to punish our horses, are there any conceivable circumstances where it would not be wrong for our horses to punish us?


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## Knave

Definitely @Hondo!! Sometimes I am wrong, and I hopefully respond to a threat before a punishment. Lol. Hmm, like if we are doing something that hurts them, say cleaning out a cut, and they kind of threaten, I might back off a bit instead of punish them. It would depend on necessity. Just like any relationship it goes both ways.

Over facing a horse is the same. I back off often when I feel I didn’t prepare a horse for what I asked. If I didn’t stop and go back a step I would possibly get myself into a wreck. I would almost definitely stress the horse out and mess up with him pushing forward in that circumstance.

Haven’t you ever watched a video on YouTube where a horse kicks someone and you think, “well duh” or simply “Good.” All of our relationships go two ways.

My husband always says “I am the sheriff and you can be my undersheriff” to his horses. A way to remind me I am the boss, but it doesn’t mean I don’t have a friendship, respect and partnership with the horse.


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## Hondo

Yes! It's nice when they threaten and warn first! Who was it that said a gelding will threaten you not to touch there or I'll kick then not kick but when it's a mare she'll say, well, I warned you

When I first was riding Hondo before he was mine, he had a horrible large sarcoid in one ear. His bridles had to be altered just to put them on.

I was insisting on looking more closely at his ear one day while he was insisting that I don't. He finally put his head up against me, very lightly, and then literally flung me to the ground. I looked up and actually laughed while telling him, "Oh, you really meant it huh?" 

I'm not sure if he felt badly after I became so "good" after that


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## gottatrot

I agree, if a horse punishes me for doing something wrong, I apologize and never reprimand the horse. I like what @Knave said about the horse being the undersheriff. 
It depends though...if a horse warns me not to come near his food when he's eating, I tell him I have the right to give or take away. If a horse warns me not to get too rough where he is hurting or ticklish, I listen. 

Halla used to set her teeth on me as a very serious warning. What I mean is that she kept her front teeth closed together, but opened her lips and pressed them down hard on my body. It was a very deliberate and clear message. I always listened and backed off if she did that, but I felt it was respectful of her to tell me she thought I was crossing a line rather than just biting me. 

I also think it's good of horses to raise their legs or kick out as a warning. I am quite, quite sure that if a horse wants to kick you they have impeccable aim and will hit you every time. So if a horse kicks "at" you, they are warning you and did not intend to hit. So they are giving you a chance to figure things out, and I feel that is rather generous of them.


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## gottatrot

Forgot to say...because horses do warn us many times, I think it is fair for us to warn horses too, rather than just lighting into them. I sometimes will raise my hand or flip the end of the lead rope in a horse's direction if they're doing something wrong, to warn them that if they don't stop I will whack them with it.


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## Knave

Yes! It is a relationship where both sides are respected, but in different places. The only time I would lay into a horse truly with no warning would be in response to the same action on their part. You struck me? I will come after you. It goes both ways for sure.

That’s why I cannot say it can all be positive. My relationship with my kids is not 100% positive either. I think it’s great to work together and do things with full understanding and a positive motivation, but they will make mistakes which require a reprimand. I work on being fair in those circumstances too, but as I tell them, I am still the parent. It is my duty to parent. Sometimes that means they have to be punished. 

In a truly equal relationship it should not work that way, but it still does. Say my friend did something that bothered me, I would choose if I should say something to her or not. My personality leads to not, but that isn’t a good solution.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> he was barging ahead. I stopped and told him to back up. He just looked at me and I whacked him in the chest with the reins, from the ground. He backed up and said, " I'm sorry" by walking along perfectly with a loose lead.
> 
> Every time I have ever done something like that he makes be feel so bad by being so good.


Why do you feel bad for expecting Hondo to behave in a mannerly fashion (which he certainly knows how to do)? And he was only being "so good" because he had already experienced the result of barging ahead.. how do you think he would have been behaving had you NOT corrected him?




Hondo said:


> I walked up to the end of my wonderful gnarly trail project the other day and decided this is all about me and nothing to do with Hondo. I put the fence back in place and have determined that is the end of my trail projects.
> 
> This is a huge shift in direction for me as trail searches and resurrection has bee my main recreation for 20 years now. But I didn't have Hondo then. So now when I go riding with Hondo it'll be about and only about riding with Hondo other than keeping track of Roman.


So what that your trail project is all about you? Are you not allowed to have goals and wants of your own because Hondo exists? It hardly sounds like you are overtaxing Hondo with his part in the trail project and you are certainly capable of being aware of Hondo while also doing trail things. Next step will be having to leave Roman at home, because he is taking your focus away from Hondo..




Hondo said:


> I still do tend to think that most reprimands, for horses or kids, fall back on the reprimander.


I don't agree with this, not when dealing with sentient beings. We are not omnipotent, so cannot always know what another will do..


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## Hondo

RE: Why do you feel bad for expecting Hondo to behave in a mannerly fashion 

Comment: Because I'm sure he was only anxious to get back and get the saddle off because the sores on his back were hurting and it was my fault for not checking him carefully. Hondo is a very compliant, cooperative, giving horse that takes care of his rider on his back and on the ground. This was not his usual behavior. I still feel bad. Later with the saddle off we went for a hand walk and he was perfect as usual with no corrections (punishment).

RE: So what that your trail project is all about you?

Comment: If it's only about me, then I am the only one that needs to be there. If others are included, then an activity that all enjoy would be on the roster.

RE: Next step will be having to leave Roman at home

Comment: I've actually thought about that a lot. Not because of a need for greater focus on Hondo, but because Roman has almost resulted in me coming off Hondo more than a few times. Hondo likes him and is careful not to step on him when Roman is using Hondo for a shade tree. They share pellets together and often drink water out of the same container together.

But that Roman has a middle name of Candle, as in Roman Candle. A real little rocket. So I have been concentrating on him heeling with Hondo and I. He's a very smart little whip and he is figuring out what I want. And that means a lot as I'm not a very good or consistent trainer/communicator.

I don't feel a need to be hanging on Hondo's every move and monitoring his every move with 100% attention, although I am never unmindful of him. Training Roman from the saddle is no problem. Hondo actually has began to understand when I'm calling Roman as he starts looking for him, if he's not already.

The thing I realized on my trail project, which I apparently did not explain well, is that the entire trip all about me and nothing about Hondo.

Plus, and this may be the bottom line reason, since his bout with laminitis and staying in my yard 24/7 for an extended time, (he is now on 24/7 turn out in 3 acres), my-our-bond-relationship or what ever seems to have taken a turn. His tail and mane are brushed out well at least twice daily. And many other things. And I'm truly enjoying the heck out of it.

If I had not noticed his problem right away, he could have very well needed to be put down. That gave me an up close look at my preferred priorities.

And I reckon the trail project thing just sort of began melting away compared to spending quality time with my animals. And that includes aging Meka. It's made them all a little more important and many other things I could but haven't mentioned less important.

And to conclude: Deck the halls with boughs of Holly, falalala.lalala. **


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> If it's only about me, then I am the only one that needs to be there. If others are included, then an activity that all enjoy would be on the roster.
> 
> The thing I realized on my trail project, which I apparently did not explain well, is that the entire trip all about me and nothing about Hondo.


What makes you think Hondo isn't enjoying it? He gets to be out and about with you after all. I often do activities of my DH's choosing because he enjoys them and I enjoy spending him with him. 

I suspect once Hondo is back to feeling 100%, he is going to want to hit the trail as much as you do. And nobody says the current pampering needs to stop just because he is doing better!


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## Hondo

@phantomhorse13 What makes me think I think Hondo does not enjoy going out? He in fact does or at least seems to by my observations.

I often do similar as you with your DH with both my dogs and Hondo. I have long taken walks with my dog where I simply follow along where ever they want to go. I often do the same with Hondo and find it interesting the courses he follows.

With that experience, I can readily assert that he would not of his own accord choose some of the trails I would have chosen in the past. My choice's of trails are, I think, a hold over from my motorcycle enduro days when every weekend ride was a training ride where the harshest and most difficult trails where the trails of choice.

The way I look at it, if I still want to do that, I need to go buy another enduro bike. Fact is, I have no interest. I find it immensely more rewarding and pleasurable to spend time on the trail with my animal friends. 

I am very thankful and appreciative for what Hondo has done for me since coming into my life. I feel the very least I can do in return is to allow him to enjoy trails that he does enjoy and avoid those he'd rather avoid.

I'm now looking at those trails as part of my past that I enjoyed greatly at that time, but just like motorcycle riding, my interest has diminished for various reasons, not the least of which is Hondo, with my interest now taking a different direction. Something I never ever thought would happen. Most of my old friends remain bewildered but have finally reconciled the fact that we won't be hitting the trail on bikes anymore.

So there you go. All horses are different. All people are different. All horse/people interactions are different.


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## bsms

It would be interesting to know if horses sometimes enjoy a physical challenge, just as humans do. I rarely want to go for a run UNTIL I've first run 1/4 - 1/2 mile. Then I fall into a groove and enjoy it. Same with hiking, really. Until I've warmed up and am rolling along, I don't enjoy it. Then I do.

Bandit seems that way. He has no desire to START a trail ride. He's quite happy with our 30-45 minutes of movement time in an arena now. Doesn't feel like heading out. But once out, he seems to accept the challenge and by ride's end, he seems happy we've been out - AND returned.

Just got back from a few days looking around the Prescott / Camp Verde / Chino Valley area. As with all my vacations, my favorite moment is when I pull back in to our driveway! And yet, I'd miss those times out. Bandit seems like that. Cowboy & Trooper would be pretty content to live their lives in the corral, although they don't like it when Bandit leaves. I think they assume, like Bandit, that Bandit is the protector.

In positive reinforcement discussions, I rarely see mention about the role of togetherness, socializing, achieving something as a team. "_Bandit isn't thrilled about heading out on a trail_" is viewed as meaning Bandit dislikes going on the trail. I think it is more complex. Cowboy and Trooper don't care about going out, but don't care about NOT going out. They are temperamentally content to submit to the rider's desires, as long as the rider doesn't act too pushy, stays out of their mouth, and lets them sometimes stop and nibble something.

Bandit is simply a smarter horse. He seems to enjoy the challenge - once he is out doing it. Like me when I hike or jog. By the end, he is glad to get back but also seems glad he went - like me when I hike or jog.

Mia was different still. Bandit is quite independent of me. He views me as a staff officer with a history of very good recommendations about where to go next and how to handle things - but he isn't really into me, so to speak. I'm useful. He appreciates my efforts. But nothing like Mia's, "_Ooooh, what are WE going to do TOGETHER today?_" attitude! That is why I still consider selling Bandit. He'd be content heading out carrying ANY good staff officer along. He liked his previous owner, who pushed him very hard. He likes me OK. He'd like someone else OK too. He's a self-contained horse. He gets along OK with the other horses, but I don't think he cares WHO the other horses are.

But for positive training...I think horses are very good at "give & take". All the horses I've met have been good at doing what humans enjoy in exchange for some time spent doing what they enjoy. I've posted this many times before, but it really summarizes how my horses respond:

"_...There is another thing to be considered with regard to the horse's character - it loves to exercise its powers, and it possesses a great spirit of emulation; it likes variety of scene and amusement; and under a rider that understands how to indulge it in all this without overtaxing its powers, will work willingly to the last gasp, which is what entitles it to the name of a noble and generous animal...Horses don't like to be ennuye, and will rather stick at home than go out to be bored; they like amusement, variety, and society: give them their share of these, but never in a pedantic way, and avoid getting into a groove of any kind, either as to time or place..._"


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## whisperbaby22

I love your Christmas tree!


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## Hondo

This just happened.......

I was walking from the barn to the feed area carrying a net of hay to clip to a tub in the feeding area. I haven't found the nets slow down the eating much, but it does keep them from rooting the hay out on the ground where it gets wasted. Plus they can't sort the hay as easily eating the best and refusing the rest.

I was carrying the net in my right hand and Hondo was walking along very nice and politely, slightly behind my left shoulder. Rimmey was following Hondo.

Suddenly Hondo bolted forward just barely clipping my left shoulder with his right, but with his weight and speed, I was knocked forward to my right knee and then my right shoulder. As I rolled over on my back I was facing Rimmey as he went spraddle legged applying the emergency brakes with his fores about 6 feet from me.

I caught a glimpse of something black and white darting off to my now left. Roman had apparently heard something and came charging out from behind the house and behind Hondo. Like sitting on a tack or blinking, Hondo did not have the ability to think until a second later which was too late for me.

That's the second time Roman put me on the ground. The other was when I was leading Hondo and held the rope when he suddenly gave me the slack I was asking for but so fast I went down in a rock pile. Roman had came flying out from an unsuspected location.

When I found Roman today he was in his hiding spot under the house even though he has never once been punished by me for anything. When I saw him and didn't say anything he later went in the barn and lay down on some hay. He had a definitely worried look on his face. He is smart. I believe he saw the entire thing unfold and knew exactly what had happened and how. It's not like the first time he has seen his actions spook the horse.

But he is who he is. I don't believe either should have been reprimanded even if it had been possible within the proper time frame.

But I am getting increasingly concerned for my safety around Hondo when Roman is around, which he always is, somewhere.

I'm going to wait a week or two before I decide, but at this point I'm seriously thinking it might be best to re-home Roman.

Sigh


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## Knave

I am sorry that happened. I don’t really know what to say about getting rid of the dog or about quitting the trails.

About the dog: I don’t seem to have that problem. The first few times, yes, but it seems my horses have always figured out quickly enough that dogs and cats come from no where at times. When they don’t have it figured out yet I tend to keep a fairy tight handle on the dogs, knowing where they are and reminding them to stick with me or leave me alone, depending on the circumstances. 

About the trails: I think if they make you happy you should continue them. We only get so many things that make us happy. I’m sure Hondo wouldn’t choose some of the trails you do, but that doesn’t mean he’s unhappy to do them. Everyone likes to see new things.


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## phantomhorse13

Couldn't like the post about Roman causing you to be on the ground again.. thank goodness Rimmey has a good set of emergency brakes.

I sympathize mightily, as I have the same issue with Phin and dogs (and just about anything that moves suddenly or makes an unexpected noise).

I hope your knee and shoulder are not too banged up.


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## rambo99

Sorry to hear of you falling because of Roman. Would it be possible to tie him up while you are putting out hay for horse's.?? Just have a tie out for him near house and before you, head out to give hay tie him up quick....then untie him when your done.


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## bsms

I wish there were more buttons than "like". Dislike would be good, as would a "Like, but..." button. There are times you want to say, "_I hear you. I sympathize and support you. But I don't actually like what happened to you..._" I've come off a horse once, and even then I was hoping to dismount. Just not so fast. But on my feet, I've had horses slam me into the ground more times than I could count. Not intentionally. NEVER intentionally. Just they were moving and didn't get full clearance on me. I've needed a helmet more times when on my feet than when on their backs. A LOT more.


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## Hondo

I've decided the like button just means I read the post. Mostly.

Today was the first time in my life I have been ran into by a horse. I believe one time I came off Hondo not too long ago may have been due to Roman but don't know for certain. He's a good dog. Goes nuts when I'm saddling Hondo because knows what's coming.

He just has too much exuberance for Hondo and Rimmey. Heck about an hour or two later I was out in the 3 acre field that has 4 foot high weeds growing down one side. Roman was in the weeds and the horses both kept alerting to the weeds. I was walking on the way back when I heard Rimmey start running and sure enough Roman had came blasting out of the weeds. Roman has two gears. Park and overdrive with the pedal to the medal. "What? Why aren't you guys running? It's so much fun!"

Bottom line I'm starting to feel he is a threat to my well being, as he just jumped up on the cot and began licking his paws.

If I do re-home him I'll advertise in Ranch World Adds with a price that will insure someone really wants him and will take good care of him.

Tie up this dog? HA! Not a collar made that will hold him unless a choke collar. I started using a harness and left him tied outside the supermarket because he will destroy the rest of my pickup interior that's left. When I returned there he was running around the parking lot looking for me. How he got out I have no idea.

Now I either leave him at home or put him in a kennel in the back of the pickup.

I've had him about 14 months and this is a first for a horse running into me. This coming Thursday is reshoe day for Hondo's fores. After to day I won't be doing it with Roman on the loose. So I'll be using the kennel. He has not figured a way to get out of that. He did make it out of the horse trailer.

Little piece of dynamite I'm tellin' ya.

But just a little while ago Roman and Hondo were nose to nose. They are almost buddies but the problem is the same as if I sporadically came running out of nowhere waving plastic bags. Hondo knows me but his reactions kick in past his will.

BTW, Hondo is not spooked just by dogs. On the cattle gathers there were always at least three catahoulas. I've ridden lots of trails with Meka, my Great Pyrenees. Never a problem, maybe a couple of startles with Meka but nothing like Roman. He just covers so much territory so fast.


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## Knave

I think the same of the like. Sometimes I am like, I don’t like that, but I still want you to know I support you and what you are saying. I don’t like that he ran into you. I don’t like that you are feeling unsafe with your dog. If getting rid of him would be a relief to you and not a sadness, then I think all the better. When I have sold or given away an animal who I was unhappy with I felt that both of us were better off.


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## gottatrot

Ouch. Even when it feels somewhat "light" when a horse knocks into you, I often later find a big bruise. Plus hitting the ground...I'm sure you'll be quite sore. 

Roman is very smart also to notice he caused an accident. My friend's Australian Shepherd used to dive under the water of the creek as we rode by and then come out like a loch ness monster, scaring the horses every time. I think there is no way to avoid dogs spooking horses, unless the horses are the type that can adapt. When I took the barn lab out riding with Amore, he'd spook her every time he came around a bush. Hero adapts to the dog much better and watches for him to appear again after he has disappeared.

However, my opinion is that we can't assume dogs and horses go together. I'm not saying you should do this, or what is right for your situation, but I've had to adapt the lifestyle I had with dogs to what I was doing with horses. Ideally a person would have a dog that could be exercised along with the horses, and everything would be great. But there are horses that want to kill dogs (Amore), dogs that herd the horses too much and aggravate them or won't stay close. Dogs that sit down in front of running horses and don't notice they're about to get killed. 

After my dog got kicked and almost killed by Amore, I decided my own dog and future dogs have to be carefully monitored and/or leashed around horses. I sounds like that may not be practical for you, and safety is important for everyone. 

I've ridden away hearing the sad yipping of my dog in a kennel, who wanted to come along. Yet I don't feel bad when said dog goes for a long run on the beach later, and then spends the evening in the house.


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## Hondo

gottatrot said:


> Dogs that sit down in front of running horses and don't notice they're about to get killed.


That's too funny!


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## Hondo

And then there's the time Roman put me on the ground without the aid of a horse.

I was walking through a narrow trail through the tall weeds the horses had formed. I was walking fairly fast swinging my legs in a fairly long stride. Just as my right leg reached the maximum extent of it's stride, Roman heavily shouldered into my foot lifting my leg even higher from which I did not recover.

My analysis has been that he calculated where my foot would be when he reached it with plans to just skate underneath it. When my swing did not continue as he planned, he slammed into it. I doubt he missed a stride. For a while after that I would stop and brace myself if I heard him coming from behind.

But that was cool. I like to see him energetic having fun.


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## Hondo

Is Roman becoming an influence on Hondo?


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## gottatrot

Great to see Hondo looking so energetic. How good it is that you caught his founder and helped him out right away. Halla would never have been sound enough to run again after her second founder, and it both makes me again understand that putting her down was the right thing, and also to feel quite happy the same thing did not happen to Hondo.


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## Hondo

Yes, I enjoy seeing him do that except right now I'd just as soon he didn't bang on the ground too hard. I suspect it was Mr. Bobcat that was the attraction. He was looking toward that tree about 400 feet away.

Not sure but since the brunt of the weight and forces is in the caudal hoof with the clogs, maybe a little of that is ok as it's pushing up on the coffin.

When I see Hondo do that I'm sure I must have ridden that for a 100 feet or so, except for those times I didn't.

You didn't see him of course, but as bad as he was at first and with the decent he did have, I feel certain if I had not caught him when I did he would have had to be put down.

I was talking about being worried about Roman when I re-shoe Hondo but I forgot, no chance of him busting out from behind the house, he's always walking around under Hondo sniffing for yummy hoof shavings. Hondo's fine with that.

I looked around for Roman today when I was treating Hondo. I lay a tarp down beside him and lay almost on my back with my head underneath to apply Blickens or whatever to hi spots on his midline. I've been lucky but after that I'll take a little more care. Hmmm, I may even start using a large mirror I have. That would be much safer.


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## Hondo

I have to tell about this. It just transpired not long ago.

Roman will take off like a rocket if he sees a coyote, javelina, or bobcat in the distance. That's nature I know, plus a lot of nurture from Meka.

But it's not good for Roman to do that for several reasons. He has learned not to chase cows at will, so I believe he can learn not to chase other things at will.

Late this afternoon while reclining in the yard after a very busy day, Roman shot out the open yard gate and headed across the adjacent 3 acre field. I was yelling, no no no Roman come inside come inside as fast and loud as I could. Roman stopped about half way across the field and looked back, then at the direction he was going then back, all the time with me still yelling.

Hondo had been grazing about 3/4 of the way across the field and a little to the side of the direction Roman had been going.

Hondo was watching with his head up. He finally lowered his head and began prancing maliciously toward Roman. When Roman turned toward the yard Hondo sped up until Roman was streaking for the yard gate at which time Hondo stopped and just watched again.

When Roman made it into the yard where I was reclining, Hondo slouched and sauntered over and began grazing again.

Now Hondo has been witness to me calling Roman when on rides many many times. And he looks for him when I'm calling. And when Roman comes I stop calling.

I only have one explanation for what I witnessed first hand and that is a huge new experience for me with Hondo.

Have I ever mentioned how much I love that horse?


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## JoCash

I have two little 1/2 corgis. One is Bad. Bad. Bad. He just naturally wants to do the bad things, like chase the mini donkey. Not so much the horses, but those too.

I had to train them ( mostly the bad one, the other one caught on quick) to stay out of the fence. We started with "get out" but that didn't work because it was to similar to "skit'em" or get'em (sounds a like). Both dogs will listen to voice commands of skit'em up, or skit'em to me. So they can move cows or horses away from me or bring them to me. Which is handy to have when the neighbors cows get out, or in the branding pen, but that is the extent of their abilities. Also handy to have for the horses when they are way out and not wanting to be caught. So the dogs have figured that out.....anyway. We just went with "Out". We had to think on it for a second, but it was clear that the dog was not understanding the command, he thought we were telling him to "get" something. Not stop doing something.

So, my long winded point, is maybe work on training the dog to stay out of the area where you are working the horses, and/or feeding. Does the dog sit and stay? That might be where to start. It might take some time, but if he is as smart as he sounds, he should be trainable.


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## Dragoon

OK, I'll bite...

Your story is strange (to me) and I don't know why a horse would behave that way. I'm not sure why a horse would give a hoot what a human or dog do when it is not directly involving him...

From what I have learned of horses, they can only think in ways that relate to them. Eg. 'Do I have food and safety (a herd)'. 
So I am guessing Hondo includes you and the dog as part of his herd. (You're always around and haven't eaten anyone so far!) Since you are herd leader, perhaps the dog, who exhibits reckless and undisciplined behaviour, has been given the status of the herd's (misshapen) foal. Do herd members help in disciplining naughty foals? He felt he had to warn off the little brat because all your yelling told him the herd leader was in distress? Hondo feels his status is above the dog, so he is allowed to move it around. What is your interpretation?

I do think animals can recognize youth in other species...he knows this odd predator is a *baby predator...


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## Hondo

@Dragoon What do I make of it? Well, I can only guess and we all have different ideas of what a horse is and isn't.

I personally do not ascribe to the idea that a horse sees us or anything as part of the herd other than another horse or horses. I think we are in a special category with them. Both they and dogs relate to their own species in different ways than to humans. That my take on my own observations anyhow.

Herd members will definitely discipline foals, I've seen it. And also protect them from unruly (teenage horses). 

My own take was that Hondo was actually giving a hand in making Roman come back to me. Hondo as mentioned, has had ample opportunity to know what I wanted when calling Roman.

A horse will do that with a cow, often automatically. If they figure out you're trying to get them through a particular gate, they will take it upon themselves to help.

Trained cutting horses are said to only need the rider to tell them which cow and where with the rider only needing to hang on after that.

So that's sort of how I was viewing the situation. That said, I would have no basis to argue with anyone else's take on it.

It'd be cool though, if Hondo would discipline Roman every time Roman accidentally spooked him, which he didn't spook in this scenario.


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## gottatrot

Dragoon said:


> Your story is strange (to me) and I don't know why a horse would behave that way. I'm not sure why a horse would give a hoot what a human or dog do when it is not directly involving him...
> 
> From what I have learned of horses, they can only think in ways that relate to them. Eg. 'Do I have food and safety (a herd)'.


I don't think so, I believe we're learning more and more about animal intelligence and these more simplistic ways of thinking are being proven wrong.

I've been reading @Knave's journal, and she describes how the horses enjoy getting after cows and birds, herding them or chasing them. So that's not really relating directly to the horse's well being.

I have seen where horses will reinforce to another horse what a human is wanting. Such as when a horse is being called in by an owner, but is continuing to graze, I've seen another horse run up and make that horse start moving in toward the owner.

This is similar to what dogs do, which is understand what a person is asking and try to "help." My dog gets very mad when I call a cat and the cat ignores me. He'll stand up and growl, or jump down and run over to the cat. He also used to get mad if I lunged a horse and said "trot," and the horse didn't, he'd start barking loudly as if to say, "She said trot!" He was smart enough to figure out that when I said a word, the horse was supposed to go faster.


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## bsms

Some years ago, I was digging a shallow trench so I could lay a railroad tie down in the corral to control erosion. Mia came over. Looked at me. Looked at the trench. Went to the other end and started pawing at the end with her hooves. She looked at me with a puzzled expression, as if to say, "B_oss, there is no grass hiding under this dirt!_" But I continued digging with my pick, and she went back to digging at her end until the trench was done.

When I stopped digging, she stopped. In the 7 years I owned her, I never saw her digging in the corral. Except that one time. My only explanation is she felt we were a team, and I needed some help. Mia may have spooked a lot, but she was a genuine sweetheart of a horse!

PS: There was also a ride where Mia & Lilly went out around the block. Lilly startled several times, and scooted sideways across a neighbor's yard - with my daughter hanging on. We got back and put them both back in the corral. Mia spent the next 2 HOURS round-penning Lilly. I wish I had videoed it! It was like Mia was saying, "_Who is the boss? I AM! You'll spook if and ONLY IF I lead you in a spook! Until then, you trust MY judgment even if you don't trust your rider!_" 

Can't prove it, but that is sure what it looked like.


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## Hondo

Ya know, I was talking to a guy about the age as me while back that had been around horses all his life and mentioned they only had a brain about the size of a walnut when it's actually about the size of a grapefruit which is not that much smaller than ours.

And birds have bird brains that are very small yet some are performing amazing feats of intelligence.

And the horse does have frontal lobes. Not as large as ours for certain and they will never do calculus. But how much of our frontal lobe is being used to when we decide, hey that guy needs my help, he's a good guy so I think I'll help? Truth is we don't know how much frontal lobe is used for that and we have no way of knowing if the horse does not have enough to perform that social action.

Thinking about the social actions they perform and exhibit in the herd, I'm inclined to think they do.


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## whisperbaby22

Interesting discussion. But I have always felt intelligence is more a matter of figuring out how to best move around the environment. Most people would say a fish is stupid. But if a fish is stupid, how does it manage to live? How does a plant live? Is a plant stupid? 

I feel that a horse is no more intelligent than me. I would say that a horse that someone says is smart just prefers to interact with the human. Does that make a horse that prefers not to interact so much dumber, or more intelligent?


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## Knave

Bones loves to scold the dogs. Bones loves to scold anything I let him.  I tell you I believe that Hondo chased the dog for you, as it is not normal behavior as it is with Bones.

Bones started helping with colts when he was still a baby. When he was 3 Lucy came home at 2. Bones had to fill the big boy spot, and he was, for example. who I put next to the bobwire fence, and he did bumper her away when I asked him to. Quickly he loved that position of helping train colts. He is great help to me now with young horses. Even a trainer friend I know has used his help.

I rarely direct him. If a young horse is stuck and needs to move out he gets just enough ahead for them to hook onto him. If they want to run he gets just behind to slow them down. He knows what they need to do. When I put him on the outside of a colt learning to lope circles he hazes it into the circle. If it needs scolding I will let him threaten it. He knows more than I know about what the rider needs. He is low man in the corral, but he knows he has all of the power in the world when I am on his back. He loves the power. Lol 

He definitely reads a cow better than I do. He knows my jobs.


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## Hondo

This article has made my day for vindicating me as a slow reader! Yea!

Quote: 5. RE-READ
Did a sentence or passage catch you off guard? Read it again. Think about it. Similarly when you finish a book or article, don’t just toss it aside. Go back to a section that resonated with you or the very beginning and re-read it.

https://www.nbcnews.com/better/pop-culture/how-be-better-reader-ncna946166


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## AnitaAnne

Hondo said:


> This article has made my day for vindicating me as a slow reader! Yea!
> 
> Quote: 5. RE-READ
> Did a sentence or passage catch you off guard? Read it again. Think about it. Similarly when you finish a book or article, don’t just toss it aside. Go back to a section that resonated with you or the very beginning and re-read it.
> 
> https://www.nbcnews.com/better/pop-culture/how-be-better-reader-ncna946166


That article rather makes me giggle...in the old days, before the internet and the immediate gratification mindset, one had to read slowly and carefully or no learning could happen! 

The three R's return; reading, 'riting, and 'rithmetic… :rofl:


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## AnitaAnne

So, to return (more or less) to the current subject...training methods. 

IMO, one doesn't _make_ the horse respect them, one _earns_ respect. 

The respect is earned by consistent and fair treatment, kindness, and a genuine respect coupled with a desire to impart knowledge to one's horse. 

I have had my "Come to Jesus" moments with some horses, but generally I just ask them to do something and make it easy for them to understand. They most always seem to want to try, so long as we move at their pace. 


I think it is natural for a herd animal to gravitate to someone they can understand, and try to do as we ask. I've never felt like I had to force them to respect me. It just seems to happen. 

Really when I hear someone saying that the person needs to "move the horse's feet to get the horse to respect them" the picture that always pops into my mind is this one 





Somehow that doesn't look like respect to me (maybe respect for the gun???)


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## whisperbaby22

Oh thanks, I love Bugs Bunny.


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## Hondo




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## Hondo

Happy New Year From Warm and Sunny Arizona Where We Wear T-Shirts And Sandals.


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## Knave

Happy New Years!! 

I got my book today of the paintings. It is very cool.


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## Hondo

Not fair! 


Mine is due in Jan 2-9.


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## Knave

My favorite piece of it is actually the descriptions of the paintings.


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## Hondo

3 AM and & 3 degree F in warm Arizona. Gonna be carrying hot water to the horses soon.


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## Knave

It is cold here too.


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## SueC

Happy New Year, @Hondo! Hope your toes stay warm!


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## Hondo

Thank you @SueC. I am wearing a pair of Justin's Wyoming water proof/insulated boots. And for when it's really cold, I have a pair of battery operated toe warmers that work very well.


Only down to 22F this morning after that one day incredible cold snap. Had to carry water to the horses by hand as the pipe coming down from the water tank froze up. Should thaw today.


Be nice to be able to make seasonal voyages between here and there but I'll just have to rely on devices at hand.


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## Hondo

The Fred Harman paintings book finally came in. It's a lot like reading Knave 's journal.


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## Knave

@Hondo I love the book. It is funny how little seems to have changed though.


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## Hondo

The little stories is what made the book. If it were only pictures it would not be nearly as great. In some ways it's a history book.


I noticed one painting was owned by someone in Paradise, CA. Wondering about the fire when I saw that. Book was copyright in 1969 so who knows where some of the paintings are now.


I was in Pagosa 1966-67. Lots of dirt streets back then.


One thing I noted was about the Indias healing dance he apparently attended. Nine days long and he mentioned how strange it was that not a dog barked.


Glad you liked it.


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## Knave

I liked that one too. I was glad to see the painting with it. I have never been to something like that, although I had some friends who were dancers. I also knew an Indian girl who said she was healed by a witch doctor after she got very sick. She went to a lot of regular doctors and nothing was helping. Eventually they took her there and she got better. If I remember right, the witch doctor said she had forgotten to wear a mirror on her moccasins dancing, and that someone cursed her.

It was like a history book. I was interested in the little things.


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## SueC

Hondo said:


> Thank you @*SueC* . I am wearing a pair of Justin's Wyoming water proof/insulated boots. And for when it's really cold, I have a pair of battery operated toe warmers that work very well.


Total A1 organisation, then! 

I'm boggled by the battery-operated toe warmers. Can you wear them when walking around? Before we lived in a strawbale house, I always had cold feet, and frequently had them on a wheat bag heated in the microwave. Brett and I loved our electric blanket and used to joke about inventing a pair of electric boots. We weren't sure if they should be wind-powered or solar-powered or both. Imagine boots with the wiring running along a channel inside your clothes to the sort of propellerhead cap and / or solar panel carried on your head. With a rechargable battery in there somewhere. Had fun with the drawings, never built a prototype though... 


PS: Spooooky, @*Knave* !


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## Hondo

@SueC


The toe warmers use two AA batteries each and last about 3.5 hours which is long enough around here as the boots alone are enough when the sun gets up a ways. Might need more batteries in Wyoming. I use rechargeable.


There is a wire coming out of the inserts running to a battery compartment that is supposed to be attached to the belt. But I bundled the wire up and clipped the battery compartment to the pull strap loops at the top of my boots.

That makes it real handy.




They don't make the foot or toes actually hot, but they keep them from getting cold.


Here's a pic


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## SueC

Wow! We were always joking about it, but it's actually been invented! Isn't this in some ways a fabulous time to be alive? These things look very handy. No frostbite, and if you can keep your feet warm, you're actually less likely to get ill as well.


We're excited too, because we bought reading glasses for the first time yesterday. Made such a difference to our reading comfort and speed, and no more tired eyes and switching off the light early. Might get through our book stacks faster now. We didn't really notice just how bad our close-up vision had become - it was sort of like a lobster in cold water being brought to the boil... So amazed by the clarity of things at the moment!


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## Knave

I have heated socks, gloves and a vest. Lol. I have a different kind of rechargeable set. They do get hot, and I appreciate it too, but they also only last so long. I’ve taken to carrying another set of batteries with me, but also another set of just regular gloves. Like you, I haven’t used the others because the regular gloves and clothes I already have on seem good enough once those really cold hours are up.


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## Hondo

If I lived someplace like Wyoming I'd invest in a motorcycle sized lithium ion battery which is light enough to carry horseback or even walking around and I'd have a bunch of electric clothing. Lots of atv riders and snowmobilers are coated head to foot in electric clothing.


----------



## bsms

SueC said:


> ...We're excited too, because we bought reading glasses for the first time yesterday...We didn't really notice just how bad our close-up vision had become - it was sort of like a lobster in cold water being brought to the boil... So amazed by the clarity of things at the moment!


There is more to look forward to, at least for men:



> "One of my older sisters once dated a much older guy who had not yet come to terms with growing up. I remember nothing about him -- except his nose hair. He was the Rapunzel of nose hair. I do believe you could have climbed it straight into his brain...As far as I know, he's locked in a tower, holding his nose out for Gothel to climb....
> 
> But age and responsibility still have a way of creeping up on all of us. One day, staring in the mirror, you will realize your hair is either gray or nonexistent. If you are not careful, Gothel will try to climb your nose hair. The ear hair will sprout, and Andy Rooney will laugh from the afterlife about your eyebrows. Your face will either have wrinkles or be unnaturally pulled back in ways everyone else will pretend is normal while smirking at your refusal to accept gravity." - On Plucking Nose Hairs


It is best to learn to laugh before it happens. Time spares no one. :shrug:


----------



## SueC

@*Hondo* and @*Knave* - toasters for inside your clothes - hooray for technology! Enjoy toasting yourselves this northern winter! 




bsms said:


> There is more to look forward to, at least for men:
> 
> Quote:
> _"One of my older sisters once dated a much older guy who had not yet come to terms with growing up. I remember nothing about him -- except his nose hair. He was the Rapunzel of nose hair. I do believe you could have climbed it straight into his brain...As far as I know, he's locked in a tower, holding his nose out for Gothel to climb....
> 
> But age and responsibility still have a way of creeping up on all of us. One day, staring in the mirror, you will realize your hair is either gray or nonexistent. If you are not careful, Gothel will try to climb your nose hair. The ear hair will sprout, and Andy Rooney will laugh from the afterlife about your eyebrows. Your face will either have wrinkles or be unnaturally pulled back in ways everyone else will pretend is normal while smirking at your refusal to accept gravity." - On Plucking Nose Hairs_
> 
> 
> It is best to learn to laugh before it happens. Time spares no one. :shrug:


This excerpt is totally priceless! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: The Rapunzel of nose hair! :rofl: :dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05::dance-smiley05: 

That reminds me, about five years ago I first saw a nose hair creeping out of my husband's nose. I noticed it one fine morning when he was still asleep. It was a couple of mm out beyond where it should have been. Clearly it forgot its correct terminal length. I called it his evil nose hair and trimmed it regularly for him with pointy scissors (because he doesn't have an electric shaver with the requisite nose hair trimming attachments for DIY, he shaves the old-fashioned way). Because I am a nice person, I did not offer to pull it out for him. (However, if you have particularly boring work meetings, pulling out your own nose hairs is a good way to stop yourself from sinking into a coma.)

And that's just the thing that had me wondering; I last did that five years ago. Has my declining vision rendered me oblivious to the evil nose hair and its possible siblings? But, it seems this is not the case. I had a good look through my new glasses and all his nose hairs are behaving. Maybe the evil nose hair died...

Or maybe it migrated to my chin. There's one there that's definitely mutated, and I'm not sure if it was devised by my own DNA or if it jumped ship from my husband's nose...


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## Hondo

"Other" uses for a haynet.


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## Knave

That is a really pretty picture.


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## phantomhorse13

I suspect Hondo would happily donate that to Roman permanently!!


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## Hondo

It's been Roman's main spot for over a week now so it's looking permanent. It turns out to be a really good idea. I think most dogs like lying in hay, I know Meka does also. It's soft and airy and with the netting it doesn't eventually get scratched down to dirt.


Hopefully that Roman will settle down a little as he leaves the puppy stage. He is exactly what I was hoping for except his ability to scare the living daylights out of Hondo. And chewing the leather off the steering wheel.


Things are firming up for me to relocate soon with the riding to be a little more open so Hondo will be able to keep a closer eye on Roman.


Hondo's real good with Roman. I've even watched them (without a camera touching noses.


----------



## SueC

Hondo said:


> Hopefully that Roman will settle down a little as he leaves the puppy stage. He is exactly what I was hoping for except his ability to scare the living daylights out of Hondo. And chewing the leather off the steering wheel.


:rofl: You have a kelpie, so here's what you can expect. This is our kelpie, at age 6, which is sort of middle aged:






She gets outraged in the middle there because I'm not playing by the rules. I'm supposed to be taking turns, but I'm filming...


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## Hondo

I recall in the book you sent that it was suggested that if the back of one's Ute was organized and orderly then on should get a Border Collie and if it was all disorderly and thrown around haphazardly, then a Kelpie was on order. How true.


You gave a description of your Kelpie once that was great but I've forgotten it. Something like endearingly nutso or something.


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## Hondo

I really liked and appreciated this video so decided to post it here.


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## phantomhorse13

Hondo said:


> it was suggested that if the back of one's Ute was organized and orderly then on should get a Border Collie and if it was all disorderly and thrown around haphazardly, then a Kelpie was on order. How true.


omg I love this!! next time someone asks me why I wanted/have a border collie, I have the answer! :rofl:


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## gottatrot

Good video. I think it's very true that horses are looking for peace. That's why I don't think making a reprimand severe is necessary, as long as the horse understands we are delineating between unwanted behavior and wanted behavior. He will progress more toward wanted behavior if we make it pleasant for him to do so. 

I think sometimes the peace can only come after the horse burns off the excess energy created by being kept in an unnatural environment, or after the horse's physical pain or mental stressors are down to a manageable level. So sometimes a horse can't be made peaceful just by having the right handling techniques, or until after the horse has had a good gallop, etc.


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## Hondo

The use of "at peace" in the video seems to be mostly versus in a fearful state. A classroom of elementary students at recess yelling and cavorting about during recess are, to me, more at peace than sitting in a classroom with their hands folded neatly on their lap.


But true, those cavorting elementary kids are not going to do much learning until the steam is blown off. 



The stalled horses in the video tossing their heads up and down certainly were not at peace also as their basic needs were not being met. So along with the absence of fear, probably all the basic needs need to be met.


John Lyons did not throw ropes at any of the horses which I believe causes fear. I don't know if he still does that or not which I don't like but he is far removed from the rough handling days of the past.


I thought the overall "tone" of the video towards horses was excellent.


I retired from a city 12 miles from Equitopia. Too bad I had not met horses in the way I now have back then.


----------



## dogpatch

Lyons would regularly paste a horse in the butt with a rope to get it to move in the round pen.


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## Hondo

The hard part of the relocation is done. Now all I need to do is to get the RV running. I think it will start when the weather clears but if it doesn't I'll call a tow truck. It's only three miles and I can figure it out later.....if ever. Hasn't been started for five years and may be another 10 before it needs to start again.


Supposed to be in for a mega mega snow storm for this area. Hourly shows snow for 48 hours. Concerned about getting over there for the horses. They were fed enough tonight to last until tomorrow night. Temps are 32-35 so should be a wet snow. Concerned about my tarp canopy which will likely need snow pulled off of it more than once to avoid collapsing. Ahhh, adversity. Someday I shall prosper. Hee


Frodo's crest was measured against Hondo's using the thumb and forefinger. It's about twice the size of Hondo's whose is about 1/2 of what it was 5 months ago. So Frodo needed to be Hondo's pasture mate and eat what Hondo eats. Started Frodo on Safe Choice Special Care today. 4 % sugar 11% starch. Plus he looks sooooo sad when Hondo is eating his.


It took Hondo and Frodo almost 3 days to decide who was going to be boss. Nether seemed to want the job. Hondo finally grudgingly accepted. He's not a very harsh boss at all. And when I have him in working on his feet and Frodo moves out of sight Hondo wants to crane his neck around to see where he is or where he went.


Hondo was in solitary confinement for about three weeks except for an hour or so when then five horses came in for alfalfa and barley.


Everyday when I went for him he'd be standing over on the side of the pen where three calves were staying on the other side. Seemed to be thinking, "Any prey animal is better than no prey animals."


Frodo stood looking at the hillside where the herd grazed for the first few days but now seems to have forgotten them and is content with Hondo.


Frodo has packed and from the leading I've done with him I'm sure he will be a pleasure to pony and pack. Looking forward. Plan is to by one of those pack saddles that has hinged bars and is adjustable in with, then making him a custom fit bar to replace the factory bars.


I would really really like to make some 2-3-4 four day trips while I'm still able. Why? I guess the same reason some people climb mountains.


Ok, enough blabbing for now. Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow.


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## SueC

@Hondo, is Frodo a new horse you have? ...my neurons seem to be calcifying...


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## Hondo

In order to save paper, I'll link to this........https://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/zeus-sorrel-brigade-786771/page56/#post1970679565


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## egrogan

Thanks for the catch up, I was really confused too! So sounds like you're in the process of moving yourself plus Hondo to a new ranch?


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## Hondo

Yep, in the process. Everything is done except the RV I live in so it's back and forth a couple of time each day. Snow on the ground this morning but when everything dries up the RV and solar panels will be moved and I'll be done with the move but with lots of detail work yet to be done. But I'll be there for that and can proceed at a more leisurely pace.


I've been operating on mostly adrenaline for over a month and it's getting time for the 'ole body to play catch up. It's been pretty physical for an old guy. Lots of hand dug holes for 6" by 8' posts and lots of T-posts placed. Half an acre of "compound" fenced in with woven wire and about two acres of pasture fenced with two strands of electric rope. Clearing for that was a chore. Eventually will have 6 or more acres fenced for Hondo and Frodo. Plus there is another 300 acres fenced already for the other two horses but Hondo can't be turned out in that now or maybe forever so Frodo was picked (by Hondo) as a pasture mate.


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## SueC

Trying to beam you some Antipodean energy for finishing your setup! _Bzzzzzzzzzzzzz!_

So is Frodo a loan?


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## Hondo

SueC said:


> Trying to beam you some Antipodean energy for finishing your setup! _Bzzzzzzzzzzzzz!_
> 
> So is Frodo a loan?



Yep, sort of for now.


----------



## Hondo

The Good: I cannot find a place on Hondo to scratch that will cause him to make funny faces with his lips. Since he's been away from the river for a month and half his itchy spots don't itch.


The Bad: Hondo is stilted on his fores again. No heat, no bounding pulse. Couldn't even find the digital pulse.


There are two acres fenced off with electric rope that is covered with small mesquite, cat's claw, and abundant native winter green grass. Grass that stays green under snow even. Hondo and Frodo have been in there for a while now with free choice bermuda grass hay. Hondo is still losing fat but I'm hoping the grass is causing just a small temporary set back.


Frodo was returned to the 300 acre pasture with the other horses today and Hondo will have to stay in the 1/4 acre or so yard fenced with woven wire. He's fine with me there but frets some when I'm not there. My older dog Meka is staying there and since they've been on many rides together I'm hoping she will be some company.


I'm almost living there now but the creek will have to go down before the final move.


The plan is to walk Hondo at least 2-3 miles every day which I don't think he's been getting. Today he was breathing at a walk after a mile or so just being led. He has been severely neglected the last 40 days or so. His feet were trimmed more today and he needs more even. When he gets back to normal again I'll try a couple hours a day grazing in the trees and grass but no more than that.


I fear that if I keep goofing around I could still easily lose him. I'm seriously concerned but hopeful. The most scary part may be how slowly the toes on his fores are growing.


****!


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## Knave

I’m sure you will get it under control once you are settled. Why did Frodo go back?


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## Hondo

Fondo went back for a couple of reasons. First, there is absolutely no reason to keep him cooped up in 1/4 acre that has lots of stuff in it already. Plus the owner was worried about him "loosing his legs" even in the 2 acres he was staying in with Hondo. There is an older retired horse they wanted to switch in with Hondo in the small pasture. But the 1/4 acre would be too small for him also.


I might talk to them about bringing the older horse Hummer into the 2 acre field solo as it is adjacent to my 1/4 acre living compound. He hasn't been introduced to Hondo yet. The horses in the 300 acre field, Hummer and one other at the moment, have not came in for their alfalfa flake for three days. Lady says they do that sometimes if they find something they like. When they do come in, I'll introduce Hummer and see what happens from there. I think having him adjacent to Hondo would be good for Hondo and the plan is to turn Hondo out for a couple of hours per day when he gets straightened up.


Question for all:


When I first started riding Hondo he rolled and broke his tree. I didn't notice until he got some bumps under the broken area. The bumps were about 1/4 inch or so in diameter and when scratched, a clump of hair came off leaving a bald spot. I was told at the time that was typical for some saddle sores.


One of those was found on Hondo yesterday out of the saddle support area plus he has not been ridden in about three months.


So what could cause a small lump on the back where a clump of hair slips off when scratched?


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> So what could cause a small lump on the back where a clump of hair slips off when scratched?


Around here it is usually a little patch of rain rot/bacterial/yeast. It also could be a small scrape from another horse or bumping into something. Those often come off when you're petting the horse.


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## Hondo

Thanks. I just finished reading up on rain rot. I actually stopped riding him because of 3 or 4 of those spots. I thought he had gotten some debris under his pad and developed saddle sores. I have Vetericyn which is supposed to kill antibiotic-resistant strains of bacteria, fungi, viruses and spores.


I'll treat him a couple of times per day at least and watch for more. Sounds like it's ultra contagious.


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## Knave

We don’t get rain rot here, but we do occasionally get some sort of fungus that goes away with a fungus bath. 

I was thinking bite marks from Frodo, but not if you are thinking rain rot.


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## dogpatch

I don't know if this would interest you, but here in founder land, I graze according to a Brix refractometer reading on the fresh grass. There is controversy about this but some livestock grazing managers live by it. I will not allow grazing when the reading is above 3. I had a founder on a Brix reading of 5. It's a hand held device you can buy for about $35. It can easily show a 100% increase in sugar between morning and afternoon. Fwiw, I like my Chardonnay with a Brix reading of 7. Lol!


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## Hondo

@Knave Nope. Too small for bite marks. He has three more this morning. Strange land I live in. First time he went lame his chestnuts fell off. Second time he has these weird lumps. Sort of small for rain rot from what I read but we'll see what the Vetericyn does for it.


@dogpatch Awesome! I was going to send off some clippings of the green winter native grass he's been eating but for $35 bucks I'll get one for certain. This morning he grazed on dead cottonwood leaves for a while. 



................reading on the net I'm seeing prices all over the place. Seems most are for liquid. What brand/unit do you have? How do you make the reading on grass? Would it work on cottonwood leaves you reckon?


It would be sooooo nice to check stuff out for sugar to at least get an idea, particularly now.


How's your horse doing?


----------



## dogpatch

Hondo said:


> @Knave Nope. Too small for bite marks. He has three more this morning. Strange land I live in. First time he went lame his chestnuts fell off. Second time he has these weird lumps. Sort of small for rain rot from what I read but we'll see what the Vetericyn does for it.
> 
> 
> @dogpatch Awesome! I was going to send off some clippings of the green winter native grass he's been eating but for $35 bucks I'll get one for certain. This morning he grazed on dead cottonwood leaves for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> ................reading on the net I'm seeing prices all over the place. Seems most are for liquid. What brand/unit do you have? How do you make the reading on grass? Would it work on cottonwood leaves you reckon?
> 
> 
> It would be sooooo nice to check stuff out for sugar to at least get an idea, particularly now.
> 
> 
> How's your horse doing?


Hondo, here is a link to a blog post explaining how I use a Brix refractometer.

https://barbshaybook.blogspot.com/2014/10/adventures-in-grazing-fresh-grass.html

Some of my comments may not reflect my current practices. Lol!

You want a device that measures the sucrose in fruit juice. The reason it's not 100 % reliable is because it picks up other dissolved solids, but the article should help you decide if it's worthwhile. You can test any fresh plant tissue if you can extract 3 or 4 drops of juice with a very heavy duty garlic press. My tool is a no name Chinese job I bought from eBay for $35. When I do allow grazing, It's always restricted. 

My mare is doing well, thanks for asking. I am having a bodywork person out on Friday because I suspect her muscles are very tight from compensative movement.

A fresh forage analysis won't help you much because grass chemistry changes moment by moment. It will give you a snapshot in time from a week ago. At least the refractometer gives you a little real-time information.


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## gottatrot

Hondo said:


> Sort of small for rain rot from what I read but we'll see what the Vetericyn does for it.


Vetericyn is a great treatment. We call it "rain rot," but since it's really opportunistic organisms that invade when the conditions are right, it can happen anytime. Once I had some on Halla tested and it was staph. So normal skin bacteria that caused a small spot of infection. 

We see it most often in the winter, but a couple of horses here that did not have great diets or immune systems had it kind of take over, one in the summer time. Normally the sun helps kill it off some. 

Anyway, mainly I see tiny spots of it on healthy horses, feels like a little bump and when you scratch it a lump comes off with a few hairs. When I find one like that I search around, because normally that section of the horse will have a few spots. Hero had a few spots of it around his hind end a month or so ago, I just pulled it off and washed it with a little water, and that was the end of it. Amore had a patch inside one leg a week ago, and I did the same. 

I think you read about big issues with it online, because a lot of people aren't running their hands over the horses that much and probably don't notice the little specks of it. I check my horses a lot (as you do), so notice that little spots of it show up pretty often around here. I don't think it's that contagious, because it requires that the skin is not intact for some reason in order for the infection to occur. Around here that reason is usually the horse opening microabrasions from rolling in the sand, and then the small spots occur.

Scratches, which is very similar was very predictable when I had my horses stalled overnight at a previous barn. I could know when it was going to happen, always after an icy period. The horses would stand in stalls and get some degree of stocking up from the lymph pooling, which would stretch the skin a bit. Then they'd go out, walk on the ice and break through into the mud underneath. The wet mud would make the thin skin even more porous, and along with the microabrasions from scratches from the ice would let in the organisms. Two or three days later I'd be treating scratches on the legs. 
If I could get zinc paste on the legs ahead of time, it would provide a barrier and prevent it from happening.


----------



## Hondo

@dogpatch What a great article! Makes me feel somewhat normal. In the article you mention a cut off of 2 but have now cogitated that a 3 is ok? I don't think I'll be able to get any juice out of the dry cottonwood leaves.



@gottatrot Do you just scratch them off and throw on the pad and saddle and go riding?


----------



## dogpatch

Hondo said:


> @dogpatch What a great article! Makes me feel somewhat normal. In the article you mention a cut off of 2 but have now cogitated that a 3 is ok? I don't think I'll be able to get any juice out of the dry cottonwood leaves.


Let's just say I start getting really nervous around 2.5. It's kind of a day to day decision. Here in winter the grass stays below 2, but I'll start checking it very soon. We've been unseasonably cold, so little threat. I don't do any of the elaborate grazing anymore. They're lucky to see a strip of grass that'll amuse them for an hour.


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## dogpatch

Another bit of information that is generally unavailable to the horsey public is that story about sugars made in the leaves during the day going to the roots at night. That translocation requires boron from the soil which is almost never supplied to grass forage (It's required for legumes). You can use the tool to check sugar am and pm. If the soil has certain mineral deficiencies, the brix reading will still be high before photosynthesis kicks in for the day. 

I have a pet theory that boron is protective against Cushing's.


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## gottatrot

Good info, @dogpatch. 
@Hondo, I've never noticed discomfort from those tiny spots. If anything the horses seem to like it when they're scratched off.
The ones I'm talking about don't leave large patches of bare skin or anything like that, no bleeding. You can't really even see where the hair came out usually. 
My rule of thumb is that if I can imagine it would hurt or be uncomfortable, or if the horse acts "off," then I won't ride them with an injury. For example, when Hero had a chunk out of his cheek, I imagined it would hurt to have the wind blowing on it or if it throbbed when he exercised. Or if a horse gets bitten and I can see there is a scab that might pull when the horse moves, or if it has bled. 
If there is just hair missing but no actual skin damage that I can see, and I can touch the spot without the horse flinching or objecting, then I'll still ride or exercise the horse. 

I've seen people ride their horses with big sores or things that are barely healing, and that doesn't seem kind to me.


----------



## Hondo

@dogpatch Is boron supplied in fertilizer for legumes? I read one place where freezing the sample for a few hours would break the plant walls for releasing the juice but that would be no good for instant feed back.


Even with the inaccuracy that still may exist with your correlations, it's still great as there's no other way to get an idea of what's going on. Most of the native grass that Hondo was eating is heavily shaded. It'll be interesting to see what readings I get. THANKS SO MUCH!


@gottatrot Hondo's does leave a small bare spot but the hair has to be lifted to see it. On the large one I scratched off a small hump was still left. But he didn't seem to mind my fooling with it. 



I should have asked about this previously as that was the reason I stopped riding him for exercise a couple of months ago.


How can such a large tough animal be so vulnerable to so many things!


----------



## dogpatch

Hondo said:


> @dogpatch Is boron supplied in fertilizer for legumes? I read one place where freezing the sample for a few hours would break the plant walls for releasing the juice but that would be no good for instant feed back.
> 
> 
> Even with the inaccuracy that still may exist with your correlations, it's still great as there's no other way to get an idea of what's going on. Most of the native grass that Hondo was eating is heavily shaded. It'll be interesting to see what readings I get. THANKS SO MUCH!


This is exactly what offends me about the high minded nutrition gurus that have blown me off for the mere mention of such a tool. I mean, if you're shooting for a brix of under 3, and half your reading is calcium, that just gives you a wider safety margin.

Boron is required for all living creatures, but because it is very difficult to study there is currently no NRC value. "Experts" at soil analysis recoil at the thought of applying it to the soil because it is "toxic" in excess. It can be balanced to other soil minerals exactly like minerals in a horse's diet. Everything is toxic in excess. Said experts will order boron as a fertility element for legumes because it is necessary for root nodulation, which fixes nitrogen for the plant. They blow off grass as a low value crop, and they never call for elements that will cost the grower without **increasing yield**. Boron for alfalfa does that. Not for grass.

Grass is in fact one of the most critical high value crops on the planet, when viewed as a proteinaceous food source, not to mention its other virtues, but the phrase "high value" only applies to profit in yield based agriculture. Farmers don't grow food, they grow commodities and they don't care how corrupt those commodities are.

Whew! Sorry. I'm talking and I can't shut up! Lol!


----------



## Hondo

You gave me a chuckle! I appreciate people who are passionate about....., well anything.


The desert has such a wide wide variety of grasses and leaves I will for certain get my money out of the brix and squeezer that is on the way. Every time Hondo wants to stop and sample something I've always wondered, "I wonder how much sugar is in that?".


----------



## SueC

dogpatch said:


> Grass is in fact one of the most critical high value crops on the planet, when viewed as a proteinaceous food source, not to mention its other virtues, but the phrase "high value" only applies to profit in yield based agriculture. Farmers don't grow food, they grow commodities and they don't care how corrupt those commodities are.
> 
> Whew! Sorry. I'm talking and I can't shut up! Lol!


Don't get me started either!  We're running a small organic farm, and I have a permaculture vegetable garden, and I spend half my life explaining to other people that trace element / vitamin / antioxidant content etc need serious consideration - not just yield. And that soil biota are important. And why an egg from a pastured free range chicken, and milk from a grass fed free range cow, are better nutritionally than the industrial standard fare, even though "They look the same, no dif!" :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## Knave

There are many of us who put a lot of work into growing high quality hay. Just saying...


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## SueC

That's right, not everyone's an agrobusiness slave. Not around our farming district either!


----------



## dogpatch

Knave said:


> There are many of us who put a lot of work into growing high quality hay. Just saying...


Knave, the operating phrase is "yield based agriculture". You know, the tractor jockeys that think the soil is only a medium for anchoring plant roots.

Take the Central Oregon orchard grass hay growing model. They grow the stuff in volcanic sand that can only produce a crop through the heavy application of fertilizers and irrigation water. The crop is practically lethal to horses.

They aim for yield, cutting it down to the rocks and cow pies, 10% of it is pure dirt (no lie!) and sell to the highest bidder, which is most times, for export. I see Oregonians running out of hay when it used to be abundant. I also see any speck of native Oregon soil fertility being harvested and translocated by the millions of pounds, to Asia.

How do they get a low carb crop? They cut it then overhead irrigate it, which washes out some of the sugar. Gawd, you ought to see the dismal analysis on our current supply. 



Balanced mineral fertility in the soil provides all the necessary ingredients to catalyze the "starter compounds" of sugar and starch produced by the plant, into untold thousands of other compounds, many of which are vital to the health of the grazing animal. Without those fertility components, plant metabolism stalls out at the production of sugar and starch, and creates a nutritionally corrupt feed for grazers.

Overhead irrigation may leach some sugar, but I don't believe it will get the potassium out, which in my mind is as deadly as excess carbs. Especially since the university soil analysts will not call for minerals like magnesium, because it doesn't increase yield. Oregon has high levels of potassium in the native rock, plenty to support plant growth in many cases (mine), yet the analysts will call for huge applications because it promotes "huge quantities of carbohydrate-rich biomass" and more efficient water usage. 

For the western Oregon valleys, our own university discourages applications of calcium to perennial grasslands because "it only travels down in the soil about an inch per year". Yet calcium is the backbone of all soil life and plant metabolism. Magnesium is another one. Don't apply it because **it doesn't increase yield**. Yet magnesium is responsible for catalyzing a vast array of phytonutrients within the grass plant - nutrients that will then be unavailable to the horse, when magnesium is fed directly in the form of ground rocks instead of from the forage.

The usual procedure in W. Oregon fields is to slam it with a load of triple 16 (nitrogen/phosphorus/potassium), to GET THE YIELD, with no knowledge of what chaos these grossly imbalanced minerals are doing to grass plant metabolism. The result, along with the usual delayed harvest until the seed has shattered, creates hay that is guaranteed to send the horse's metabolism to perdition.

At our elevation (600 feet) we are above the last known event that could have replenished any mineral fertility in western Oregon, and that was the Missoula Floods of 50,000 years ago. Glaciation during the last ice age did not reach us. We have no natural means for replenishing the desperately eroded mineral fertility that is both leached away by excessive rainfall and translocated through harvest. Our soil is classified as "ten million year old lava, weathered to red clay". The soil and climate are suited to growing sugar (berries) and cellulose (Christmas trees). It is not suited to produce high protein grasses. It cannot produce hard wheat, and most vegetable crops have been replaced by things like berries because the soil could not produce healthy plants. Because grass is held in such low regard, everyone figures if they've got grass, they've got grazing. EMS and laminitis are epidemic in Oregon.

Quite frankly, raising grazing animals in western Oregon is similar in my mind, to trying to raise salt water fish in a fresh water tank. Yet we relentlessly push on, dragging our livestock with us into hostile environments and wondering why they don't thrive.

Now, for soil such as ours, the cost of balancing mineral fertility was so staggering, that it was unsustainable. We're talking $4000 for fertilizer and harvest on 5 acres. The contract haying equipment was never mobilized until the first of July, by which the seed had shattered, taking all nutrition back to the soil. At the height of vegetation, the feral meadow grasses would test at 28% crude protein. By harvest it was down to 4%.

But the hay guys loved the field because they made BIG BUCKS harvesting that kind of yield, like 20+ tons on the 5 acres. Of pure crap.

So we're back to where we have to buy the junk Orchard grass from central Oregon at $350 a ton, and do the usual balancing act to try and keep our horses from dying on it.


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## Knave

Well, our hay is grown differently. We are a high elevation. We grow alfalfa to test and sell to dairies, and timothy for horse hay. Each cutting produces a different product as to its growing season, so second crop alfalfa is also horse hay. 

Once I went to Kentucky in FFA, and there at the top level racing barns was hay from our valley. Not cheap, but it is high quality grown for what consumes it. From the growth to the time of day cut it is all done in accordance to what best benefits the animal it is intended for.

Junk hay doesn’t sell at high dollar either, so no one is wanting to produce that, although at times weather might damage a crop making it a cheap product.


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## dogpatch

I believe Kentucky soil has a high level of calcium. Indeed, there are parts of the NA continent that are ideally suited to producing hay, especially in the areas where the migrating herds traversed the midsection of the country from south to north and back again. Conditions favor continuous mineralization and moderate amounts of rain, which build rather than destroy soil. The impact of the migrating herds contributed to the legendary soil fertility of the middle section of the continent.


Lewis and Clark called our part of the world a "forested desert" when they passed through on their way to the Pacific Ocean. There were no grazing, migrating herds. The ecology and geology of the area could not sustain wild populations of grazers. Throughout the world you'll find the same thing. Wherever improved domestic stock have been introduced, they are basically doomed to failure, or at least compromised health, when introduced to marginal lands. 



I haunt the internet hoof pages and thoroughbreds are notorious for hoof problems. The prevailing sentiment is almost always that the trouble is rooted in nutrition.


Then too, consider that a thoroughbred's racing life, or a steer's life, or a dairy cow's life is determined by its profitability, leading to an exceptionally short lifespan. A life which is not long enough to express the ravages of bad nutrition. Our sport, working and recreational horses are generally only started in their career training at an age where other classes of livestock are no longer profitable and thus destroyed. As private owners, we expect our horses to be healthy and carry us well into their 20s and beyond.


Dairy cows, in particular, suffer from laminitis and acidosis and other conditions as a direct result of how they are fed for yield.



It is a very, very tangled web.


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## Knave

I am not from Kentucky, so I don’t know about their soils. 

Yes, dairy cows are pushed hard from what I understand, and we don’t feed that kind of hay to anything that’s not a milk cow. 

I don’t think we ranchers push our horses or livestock any harder than probably you do. Yes, race horses and futurity horses do seem pushed awfully hard. That is where the money is and they are a business, so I’m not one to judge.

All we can do is treat our own animals the way we think is right.


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## dogpatch

Knave said:


> I am not from Kentucky, so I don’t know about their soils.
> 
> Yes, dairy cows are pushed hard from what I understand, and we don’t feed that kind of hay to anything that’s not a milk cow.
> 
> I don’t think we ranchers push our horses or livestock any harder than probably you do. Yes, race horses and futurity horses do seem pushed awfully hard. That is where the money is and they are a business, so I’m not one to judge.
> 
> All we can do is treat our own animals the way we think is right.



Indeed. But there is another side of production that addresses how fertility practices can actually produce a crop of hay that banishes the need for mineral balancing in the ration, which is itself, an act of desperation.


The last time I counted, there were 37 pages of supplements in the Valley Vet catalog, each page containing an average of about 12 products. Don't you suppose there's a reason that agronomy and nutrition as sciences, split the sheet in the 1960s? You bet. There's no profit in getting nutrition right from the roots up.


Not for the chemical and pharmaceutical companies, and the universities that rely on grant money from those sources.


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## Knave

And yet, how many of those things are necessary if you feed good hay? My parents have never supplemented a horse in their life, refuse to do it as they find the hay to be quality. I can’t say that because I have one horse I give a supplement for a neurological disorder. Their horses have long life spans and are healthy to boot working most of the year. 

Some of those supplements are just a con if we are realistic...


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## dogpatch

Knave said:


> And yet, how many of those things are necessary if you feed good hay? My parents have never supplemented a horse in their life, refuse to do it as they find the hay to be quality. I can’t say that because I have one horse I give a supplement for a neurological disorder. Their horses have long life spans and are healthy to boot working most of the year.
> 
> Some of those supplements are just a con if we are realistic...


Knave, I think your points are the dream of every horse owner! But it kind of carries our conversation back to the reality that some parts of the world evolved to feed grazing animals in a symbiotic relation, while other parts of the world evolved to feed termites and bark beetles. With efforts and expense, some lesser soils can be manipulated to produce hay as a complete feed. Places like where I live cannot, because the massive expense and bad weather at optimal harvest time prevent it. 

Any expert grazier will acknowledge the financial ruin of trying to restore depleted soil. On the other hand we horse owners will sell our souls to the supplement companies to keep our metabolic horses going, because profit is not our motive. And all the while the talking heads in the EMS/IR/Founder industry absolutely squash novel information about the real source of the problems.

My apologies to Hondo for hijacking your journal. I'll shut up now.


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## whisperbaby22

I thought Idaho was great for growing alfalfa and hay.


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## Hondo

@dogpatch Since ethanol soluble carbohydrates are the main villain in laminitis episodes, I wonder if forage could be mashed up in ethanol and measured with the Brix. Not sure what else in forage would be dissolved in ethanol but maybe it could be correlated with an hay analysis.


In searching the web for home testing for ESC this idea popped up.


What do you think?


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## dogpatch

Hondo said:


> @dogpatch Since ethanol soluble carbohydrates are the main villain in laminitis episodes, I wonder if forage could be mashed up in ethanol and measured with the Brix. Not sure what else in forage would be dissolved in ethanol but maybe it could be correlated with an hay analysis.
> 
> 
> In searching the web for home testing for ESC this idea popped up.
> 
> 
> What do you think?


Well, firstly, I think that the real science on laminitis isn't really in and that there are other nutritional contributors that are being completely overlooked. But that's just my theory. At any rate, the answer to your question lies in testing methods. EquiAnalytical uses cheap methods that are wholly dependent on machine calibration for accuracy. They have sent me Grossly inaccurate results. Wet chemistry actually uses chemicals to digest the sample for individual nutrient assessment. Whether they use ethanol to test for esc, I have no idea, but you could search for scholarly articles about wet chemistry analysis and see if it could be done in the field.

In the meantime I will send you a link to my article on hay analysis that explains the different testing methods.

Btw, I have soaked hay and come up with a brix of 6 on the soak water.

https://barbshaybook.blogspot.com/2013/12/getting-most-out-of-forage-analysis.html

I also want to note that I haven't updated this old blog for years and am in the process of completely filling it with tons more information.


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## dogpatch

I also want to point out that a number of the values reported on a non wet chemistry report are derived as mathematical equations and not actual content of the given nutrient.


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## dogpatch

One of my most fondly held theories about laminitis revolves around the holy trinity of major minerals: calcium, magnesium and potassium. Here is an article that explains: https://barbshaybook.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-grass-tetany-ratio-indicator-of.html


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## dogpatch

whisperbaby22 said:


> I thought Idaho was great for growing alfalfa and hay.


Two adjacent parcels of land in Idaho will be different according to management and geology. Irrigation and crop removal on one will leach and remove nutrients. Next door's untouched sagebrush soil will have an entirely different chemistry, humus content and microbial activity. So the Timothy grown on the first field and that grown on virgin soil next door will not be the same Timothy. Some parts of Idaho may be suited to hay production because of topography and infrastructure. Idaho as a state has no magic for growing good, meaning horse, hay.


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## dogpatch

whisperbaby22 said:


> I thought Idaho was great for growing alfalfa and hay.


This old diagram will give a pretty good idea of what Nature intended to grow. Note that very little of the land is suited to grass. It takes a lot of inner strength to accept that most areas of the continent were never meant to sustain grazing animals.


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## Hondo

Hondo is receiving the supplement Arizona Copper Complete. The research and design was performed for some large equine owner or business and offered to the public by the manufacturer. It is touted to represent a trace mineral balance for the "average" Arizona produced hay.


Early on, about four years ago, samples of the main forage eaten by Hondo were collected and sent to Equi-Analytical for trace minerals. The numbers were crunched by me to determine supplemental trace minerals needed based on NRC. My numbers were compared to ACC content which were very very close. At first I bought bulk trace minerals which was cheaper but ACC has a lot of stuff not available in bulk so I'm using it now.


The big problem in Arizona is iron which is around 10x of the NRC numbers. Since that can't be removed, large supplements in Cu ad Zn are required as iron has been determined to reduce the uptake of these two important trace minerals.


So I've done the testing which seems to validate the supplement I'm using.


Hondo has been eating the same thing 20 other horses are eating and none have had laminitis, according to the reports from the ranch owners. 



Looking back, I have struggled with flaring and stretched laminae, thin flat soles and tender feet on Hondo for over four years.


X-rays taken a year prior to his founder were said to be normal with a tight coffin connection and good bone alignment. After learning more and printing out the x-rays, the p3/p2 joint was lower than normal. All this is suggesting to me that Hondo may have had a slight founder in the past and has been experiencing sub-clinical laminitis quite a while.


And then Hondo gained a lot of weight and a large crest which WAS an area of horse health that I was blind in. There is substantial evidence that causes me to clearly believe that his founder was intentionally induced by someone(s) on the ranch, but the truth is that if I had not allowed Hondo to become so overweight, the founder would not have been as drastic.


His current flare up has me seriously concerned for his eventual successful future. There are other fine horses on the ranch I'm relocating to that I'm able to ride anytime I wish, but Hondo was my first horse and was expected to be my last.


Edit: Comment on grass and horses. I have spent a lot of time the last four years watching Hondo and the 20 horse herd eat. The variety of things they eat is over the top. They will often pass up grass for cottonwood leaves, mesquite beans and leaves, various plants that I do not know the name of. The variety is huge. They like the grass designed for fattening cattle just as we like chocolate cake and eat too much when available. But their chosen diet from my observation seems closer to a goat's than a cow's when allowed to choose.


I haven't researched, but it would be interesting to know what part of North America was inhabited by the horse prior the their demise 10,000 or so years ago.


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## whisperbaby22

I'd like an in depth correct investigation into that, too. Hopefully some of our readers can direct me to the right place.

Since I live here in So Cal, hay testing is out of the question. I have tried to counter that with different types of hay. Right now I can get timothy, orchard, and I've been able to get alfalfa grown in Idaho. But there is no way I can find out if it's any better than more local stuff.


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## Knave

I haven’t seen you for a bit. I hope all is going well. I imagine you must be busy.


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## SueC

Hello, @Hondo! :wave: :charge: :apple:


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## Hondo




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## SueC

;-)


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## Hondo




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## Hondo

.......and then I recalled a section in Considering The Horse that I had read a few years ago.


Mark Rashid was 12 YO at the time and had gone with the man he always refers to as "The Old Man" to pick up a load of hay at a nearby ranch.


As they were leaving, they stopped to watch a ruckus going on in a corral. Mark was pretty excited and impressed by the ruckus the horse was putting on while tied to a post in the corral.


_*"How do you suppose the horse feels about all this? he asked quietly putting a filterless Camel cigarette between his lips and lighting it.*_
_* What? I asked, over the cheers of the crowd.*_
_*The horse. He blew out a puff of bluish smoke. How do you think the horse feels about this?"*_

_*.......................*_

_*"As the man pulled the blindfold loose and turned her loose, the expression on her face was unmistakably one of terror"*_

The word terror really grabbed me. Sheer raw terror just can't be too much fun for us humans. Don't believe it can be much different for the horse.


*"... I just couldn't find the words. Nothing I could think of seemed appropriate. It wasn't until the second to last bale was being reloaded that I said something.*

*She was scared, that's how she felt, I told him apologetically. He nodded his head approvingly and said quietly, I'm glad you noticed.*

_*Nothing more was said. "*_


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## Knave

I came across this and thought of you. I’ve been waiting for you to be active again, but I figure I’ll put it here for you so I can delete it off me phone.  Hope all is well.

ETA: I never read the pinner’s thing on the bottom. Totally disagree with that, but this is an idea that may be feasible and has nothing to do with that. lol. I’m not sure about if a hoof needs to breathe...


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## Knave

On another note, about your above post, the little girl and I have been fencing. Zeus was a major “helper” in this, and tried to dig along with the girl as she cleaned the side of the corral. I was laughing at his help, and she turned and said to me this,

“I never thought of horses the way that I do now, when we are riding every day. Now I see them the same as us. They feel like we do. Zeus knows if I’m sad and tries to comfort me. He knows if I’m playful and wants to be silly. I think of them differently now.”

I looked at her a bit confused. “Well I always thought of them like that. I didn’t know you didn’t.” She responded, “Well I didn’t. They are like us.”

Then I realized that people don’t all think the way I do. Maybe what I see is not obvious. She is one of the kindest people I have ever met, but it took working with horses every day for her to see what I see.


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## dogpatch

Formahoof is gaining traction. Very expensive for trimmers to get set up to offer it.


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## Dragoon

Knave, I firmly believe it is movies and TV that imprint on our culture, from BIRTH, that horses are less than feeling creatures. Look at westerns. Are those horses ever fed, rested, or their feelings considered in any way?

I am constantly treated with surprise, that a horse can have an opinion. One male friend was flabbergasted, asking You mean, horses can not want to be ridden??


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## whisperbaby22

Some people forget that TV is just entertainment. If I was a doctor or nurse I would probably be constantly saying "that would never happen" while watching medical shows. 

Most westerns have the hero riding into town and seeing all the bad guys horses hitched up in front of the saloon, not a bit of manure in sight. They may be bad hombres, but handy with rake and shovel. The other thing most used is the "we are dying of thirst in the desert" but the horses look fine and seemingly can make it to town with no water at all.


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## bsms

Dragoon said:


> ...Look at westerns. Are those horses ever fed, rested, or their feelings considered in any way?...


Actually, a lot of westerns involve horses with feelings. Some ridiculous (think Trigger), but many western stars had a specific horse and were shown caring about how the horse feels. The Bonanza episode I watched last night was very sentimental but it certainly viewed horses as having feelings that needed consideration.


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## Hondo

Yes, there really is a silver lining in every dark cloud. There has been many beneficial spinoffs from Hondo's founder/laminitis, not the least of which has been the depth of personal connection experienced by both Hondo and I.


There are a lot of gimmicks in the horse world designed mostly for making money for the seller. Not pointing out or necessarily judging any particular one. I did recently try a Hoof Cinch. After installing one I sat for several minutes timing the foot shifts with the device tightened and with it loosened. No difference was recorded. I do believe the inventor actually believes it works. I suspect he wanted it to work and convinced himself it did.


Bottom line, I'm back to proper trimming, diet, and the four directional relief designed into the Steward Clog that is now designed into the bottom of Hondo's boots using Ground Control shoes on the boots. These are not new and have a long history of success. We're still struggling at present but we'll make it. Thanks for checking up on me.


Any musicians out there?


A LOVE SONG FOR HONDO (to the melody of on top of ole smokey-sort of)


On top of my Hondo,
I'm feeling so fine,
I wanted my own horse,
And now he's all mine.


I love my horse Hondo,
He gives me his best,
I point where his nose goes,
He fills in the rest.


We ride across hillsides,
We travel down streams,
My only horse Hondo,
Fulfilled all my dreams.


I'll love him for ever,
Even death do us part,
Then we'll still ride together,
In the dreams of my heart.


On top of my Hondo,
I'm feeling so fine,
I wanted my own horse,
Now he'll always be mine.


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## Dragoon

Beautiful Hondo!

Now I'm crying. That's how I feel about Mouse, my own gelding. He's made all my dreams come true. He's the spirited black stallion the little girl me prayed for every night. He's taught me to ride, care for horses, train them and now helps me be a teacher to others. His head is graying now and he's a lot slower but he'll always be perfect in my eyes...my unicorn...


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