# Hitting with crop as punishment for refusing jump



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I don't mean to stir up controversy - I really don't. So please refrain from getting overly emotional about this. Instead, what I'd love to read are rational responses explaining why hitting a horse with a crop after it refuses a jump should or should not be used as punishment. I don't mean one tap, I mean 6 or 7 repetitive hits on the butt as "discipline". 

I ask because I saw this done by someone I trust as a coach, and I feel a little torn about it. But I've also been accused of being too soft with my horses and I recognize that a horse that refuses to jump can create safety issues for both horse and rider (though mostly the rider in my experience). 

Enlighten me. But please, once again, I'd like this to be a civilized, reasoned discussion.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I haven't jumped in a million years but I remember that when I rode lesson horses that refused the would say kick, kick, kick.... Crop on the butt...crop on the butt... and you would basically beat the horse over the jump. (Probably not as physically abusive as I'm making it sound but it was very aggressive).


My personal horse never refused. He was a point and shoot kind of guy. I didn't even have to be lined up for the jump - if he could make it over, or if there was a chance - he was going. I didn't have "attachments" with the lesson horses so I never questioned the kick-kick-kick - whip-whip-whip. But I remember many lessons where aggressive tactics were used.


I have a different trainer now and I have learned a different way. What I do now takes a lot longer. Where maybe a horse could have been WAY further along then mine is now because I'm moving so much slower... I do the ask, tell, demand type of thing and then I rule out fear and pain before moving on to my next step. I've learned to find the reason for the refusal or issue before assuming it's "bad pony" attitude. Most of the time it's because I'm asking wrong. When I ask right - I get it right.


Not sure how I feel about the aggressive methods but... if a horse is refusing... I do wonder why is the horse refusing? Is it pain? Is it confusion? Is he not balanced? Is he not in a position to safely take the jump? Am I asking wrong? Is he a putz? So many questions...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Refusal to go forward, a smack with a crop is in order with me. And they'll keep getting smacked until they go forward. When I do jump, which is rare, I haven't had a refusal so I don't know, the refusals were usually mine because I wasn't set up right. My coach didn't smack me with the crop though she just made me do it again, and again....


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

If you did it, it would have to be pretty much immediately after the horse refused. I feel like this could be practically difficult. When I see riders on a horse that refuses, they are usually spending a few seconds just trying to get themselves straightened out (assuming they are still on the horse). I think that by the time the rider got themselves straightened out and then applied the punishment, the horse might not understand why it was being punished.

Also, I'm not sure about the multiple hitting. At that point, it seems more like you're just venting your anger on the horse. People have different feelings about natural horsemanship, but I feel like if you're going to punish a horse you should do it in a way the horse understands, which means like another horse would. So it would be one quick, hard whack: "NO!!!!!" and then it would be over. A horse wouldn't keep punishing another horse, from what I've observed, unless the horse being punished was continuing to disobey.

Also, finally, I think the horse itself has to be taken into account. Some horses, if punished severely, might just associate the punishment with the jump, and not with the refusal to jump. For anxious, worried horses, it might lead to even more refusals, as they don't want to have anything to do with the jump.

I watched a jumping lesson on Saturday. One of the horses, who is a good jumper but really neurotic (OK I'm anthropomorphizing but you know the type) kept refusing jumps with her teen rider. The instructor made her employee get on and get the horse to jump. This horse is super hot, anxious, and worried. The employee didn't use a whip, she just didn't accept the refusals, and there were some really dirty stops in there. She just kept going and going and re-trying until the horse finally took the jump. They jumped a few more and then the horse got to be done as a reward. I've talked to the employee about this horse previously, and she says she just needs a really calm and sensitive rider, and getting upset only makes things worse. That's what I mean about it depending on the horse. You would NOT want to whip this horse multiple times for refusing a jump.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_*6* or *7* times striking the animal _would upset me too AA... :shock: :eek_color: 

A crop properly applied can reinforce direction the horse needs to take...
Did the horse run out at a jump a certain direction...apply a crop to correct that evasion direction.
Same as using a crop to the shoulder...there is a reason why and where you lay a crop to a animal..
The use of a "tool" went from being positive to now being potentially feared and that is not what you want either..
Now if you had that videotaped it would be very interesting to watch in slow motion and see who goofed...horse or rider error...
Still no excuse for striking so many times, the point was made on swat 2...by the time you had 6 strikes the animal had moved on and the territory was now abusive.

Sounds more to me frustration and it was taken out on the animal...
Sadly, that trainer just slipped to near the sewer when they allowed their temper to better them and they turned anger/frustration on the "dumb" animal who only did as the rider told them to do... :|...truth.

For such a large animal their brain is the size of your fists put together...that is their thinking power to govern that near 1000 pound of muscle and brawn.
We as riders are _never_ going to out muscle so you better out think them and sadly that trainer/instructor failed big time.

I've seen 2 strikes, 3 at most since when you apply a crop/bat you are not love-tapping but meaning your message being felt...
To use a crop/bat 6 or 7 times...never would that person sit on my horse to "school"...
They just lost that right when they went beyond reasonable...
Something you will never forget and took the person you looked up to with respect and dropped them more than a few notches now didn't it...:frown_color:

So...did the trainer/instructor wear spurs and apply them?
Did she know the animal and stopping is/might/was a issue?
The answer to those 2 thoughts would/might crucify that instructor/trainer depending on that answer..

No one should be shred for a differing opinion but _did the crime fit the punishment extracted_...not in my book of overboard to much...
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo.._


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

A few thoughts meandering to a point

There are times when we can't give the horse the option to disobey. A different situation might be getting out of the way of cattle that are fighting in a pen. We need to move now, and if the horse is bracing or not moving it can be a big wreck. Like the jumping scenario where the horse and rider can be injured, disobedience is potentially dangerous.

Horses are physically tough but emotionally sensitive, and I know they can feel the hesitation and fear in a rider and will act/react to what the rider is telling them intentionally or not. In Reining one of the hardest things about learning to get a really good sliding stop is sort of hiding your intentions from the horse. If you are thinking about it and preparing for it more likely than not the horse will beat you to it and stop on their own before you can ask. In my opinion the horse gets unfairly blamed for this some times when the rider was telling them to stop with everything but the actual cue for it. 

So back to the jumping scenario I'm thinking about what both the rider and horse are doing. Which one is hesitating in reality? Let's assume the rider is aggressive and really means to go over the jump. If the horse needs that extra little push and that is all it is then it is appropriate. When using something like spurs or a crop in my opinion it is extra important to remove it the instant the horse complies. So 6 or 7 times could be appropriate if that is what it takes to get compliance, but if not then no I don't think it is productive and potentially unfair.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I just wanted to add that I'm not against using punishment when it's warranted, as horses can potentially be extremely dangerous, and sometimes you need to use a strong correction in order to make the horse understand something. But if what you're doing isn't helping the horse understand and learn, or if you're punishing them for not doing something they aren't able to do, then to me it's not justified punishment any more, it's abuse.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I hate riding with a crop or quirt, though I have had to a few times.

When I sense hesitation going to a fence I speak sternly, and even growl, and horses go. 

I wouldn't repeatedly smack a horse for a refusal.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

No, I do not believe in punishing the horse for refusing the jump or running out on a jump - there is always a reason for a horse to do that and I believe the majority of the time it falls into two categories:

1. Lack of confidence/experience on the horses part
2. Incorrect riding on the rider's part

Denny Emerson brought up a rather nervous horse, Rosie, who lacked confidence in the beginning (now she is jumping advanced, I believe). This is a post from him about this horse, that you can find on his FB page (rather a collection of many posts about her):

"The way that we got Rosie to stop refusing and to start jumping was, 1. to get her used to the idea that she was NEVER going to be punished for not going---
And, 2. that she wasn't going to get "lied to" about the take off spot.
And, 3. that she would not be held or tightly constrained on her way to the jump.
And, 4. that it was going to be casual, no big deal----"

"This mare used to quit at jumps one foot high. So we just fiddled around, tried to make her calm, and NEVER punished her when she would stop.
Jack LeGoff used to say, 
"Boldness comes from confidence. Confidence comes from success. So it is the job of the trainer to create lots of situations which guarantee success." 
We did that, and Rosie gradually lost her fear of jumping.
It seems so simple, Jack's little "mantra" but many riders and trainers still use force. Which is maybe why Jack won all those gold medals, and the others do not."

Here is a video of Denny riding Rosie when she was only 4, and just starting over fences: 




And then a perspective from Shelby Dennis, who holds the same views as myself and Denny about punishing before fences, specifically her blog post "The Myth of a Bad Horse", linked here: https://www.milestonequestrian.com/blog

Here are is a story pulled from her blog post:
"Let me tell you a story that really opened my eyes with regards to these cases of “bad” horses. Recently, I took in a client horse who had a history of competing in eventing and doing quite well. The horse was successful over fences, never stopped and was forward to fences. Overall, he was always a lazier horse who required lots of leg to ride and didn’t have an aptitude to go forward much. Randomly, he started sucking back more and more under saddle. He would also start resisting lateral work like leg yields, crow hopping or tripping instead. He became more and more dead to leg and the solution suggested to his owner by a trainer was to use a crop or spurs to urge him forward. Not an odd request, a very common one seen in most training barns, in fact. Also, not inherently problematic, but let me tell you why it sometimes can be and why it’s so common for people to make this mistake.
So, this horse would express disobedience or “disrespect” by backing off, trying to move down to slower gaits or jogging around like a western pleasure horse. He would get a smack with crop, asked to go forward, and pressure was removed when he did. Oddly he just kept backing off. More pressure, more smacking, “send him forward”," “make him go”. He would resist sometimes by hopping up to rear, but then going. The owner was doing what they were told by a trainer, a professional they trusted and at the time, they trusted the method to work for the horse. For a while, it worked just enough and they even did a basic veterinary exam, got him some maintenance of joint injections which seemed to help for a short time, even though he still remained lazy and in need of motivation to go forward. Then his behavioural issues increased. Walking away from the mounting block, then rearing when riders would mount. Evading the bit, hollowing out his back, refusing to go forward even when the pressure of a whip or spur was added, slamming on the brakes randomly under saddle and rearing. The owner did everything that many would suggest like checking saddle fit, chiropractor and massage. They even went above and beyond to check for kissing spine, to no avail. After further therapy to rule out any back pain, the horse was put back into work and was a bit better about not evading the bit, still not forward. The owner was still having to heavily use a whip to send him forward and smack him hard right behind their leg to “reinforce” their aids. Again, a very highly suggested and commonly used method by many many trainers and suggested to this person by their trainer. 

The use of the whip to force him forward worked for a short while again, so his work load was increased as he got back into fitness on the flat, still requiring fairly heavy use of the whip. He started back over fences and was better behaved over fences than he typically was on the flat. The owner then went away and had a friend getting on him. The horse started to squeal and rear very high up when the friend first got on, but since this was after him having a short time off, it didn’t raise any major alarm bells. Friend was a good rider so rode him through it and was fine. Owner came back, could not get the horse forward under saddle and he would start to resist the heavy whip use and still lose forward motion. He would bolt away from the mounting block before getting on. The owner sought help out from another trainer, who proclaimed the horse as a “dominant” type and proceeded to try to enforce further dominance over him, getting fairly aggressive in their quest to have him relax at the mounting block. Owner admitted to being quite uncomfortable, but was not a professional so let the professionals do their job despite said discomfort. The horse then started to strike out or kick at people even during ground work, resorting to biting and acting out. The suggestion by many was predominantly that the horse was just ill-behaved and needed to learn some manners and be put in his place…."

Here is a video of her and her horse Milo's transformation, who would very often refuse fences:


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

And from my own personal experiences with this, I will share a recent story.

I was sharing the arena with a jumping lesson lead by a hunter-jumper trainer/competitor. There was a specific horse in this group, I will call her Susie. Susie was very backward to jumps, and didn't have the necessary building blocks to be going over jumps, at any height. Susie had zero confidence with jumps. The first time I saw the trainer ride her and "train" her over fences, she would get cropped and spurred when she would refuse or run-out. I stopped watching, knowing that she was doing wrong with that horse.

When I riding with the owner in this jumping lesson (I was not participating), ever time Susie refused with the owner, she was yanked on, spurred on, and cropped. Susie became more and more anxious and worried every single time this happened, despite her 'improving' by going over the fences occasionally. Had she been given the building blocks and the confidence over poles, and very low crossrails, I would be willing to say that she would be a fantastic jumper - but at this point, the damage has been done over fences. They worry her, they make her anxious and tense, and any chance at her being truly successful in the hunter-jumper ring is gone, without being restarted and having a really positive, slow experience.

The trainer then got on her, and immediately commented on how tense she was, and I bit my tongue, knowing that she had been the root cause of this horse being so worried and tense with fences even just set up in the arena. Of course the trainer forced her over more fences, to "train" her, instead of listening to poor Susie screaming that she was anxious and worried.


After the lesson concluded, I started my horse over the set-up fences. Toofine was brought up on fences slowly, and has never been punished for refusing, the few times that he has. I realized that if he refuses, we need to take a step back, and either go lower to build his confidence, or I need to ride better and set him up better before the fences. In Toofine's youth, we could go over a full course bareback & bridleless, and could go over jumps set at the top of the standards (~4ft). 

From my previous comment on this thread, but bolded and enlarged,
* 
"Boldness comes from confidence. Confidence comes from success. So it is the job of the trainer to create lots of situations which guarantee success." *


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

What you described sounds excessive and would also make me do a double take. While not acceptable we are just human... is there a chance coach was having a bad day or personal issues that affected her tolerance? Any chance she had an audience and felt under pressure against her better judgement?

I really agree with jgnmoose that it's important to identify if the initial problem is rider or horse related and then with horselovinguy if the punishment fits the crime. 

If I were you and close to the coach.. I would ask and judge off their response. I would at least like to hear their reason or even hear them admit themselves that they responded too harshly and would go about it differently next time. 

Katie has had to have a few spanks in her time but shes so sensitive that sometimes all it takes is just a light smack with the reins on a shoulder. I have ridden horses who I would have to essentially beat the hell out of to get them forward... but I wasnt willing to do that to someone elses or a school horse so plod ride it was. If I did that much or as wares Ito katie I'd probably get an ugly and dangerous reaction from her. There is being firm but you can be firm and patient without using excessive force. Did coach feel it was safer to beat that horse than another? People often go for the quickest quicker easiest solution and that's what it sounds like here.

However it's hard to say without knowing the full situation or the horse or their history. There are some horses that due to poor training or habits are monsters and spanking is a necessary quick fix in the moment. But out of all the big name trainers I watch I havent seen one NEED to beat a horse to eventually get the same result sooo.... 

When Katie refused when I first got her... when a better rider was on her. It was rider fault. But Katie did duck a few times and the instructor said it was naughty.. but no spanking needed. They repeated and when she did jump it (even with poor form) ended the jumping aspect and have her a few mins rest on a long rein. She made an emphasis on ending on a good note and not riling them up which I liked. She trained her own stallions too with her methods with great success too.

What you thinking of doing about coach now?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

How many authorities, how many people here have said or quoted... *"Horses live in the moment".......*
By the time the refusal happened, the rider took the second or two or three to gather their wits and react..._the moment was already lost or just about gone.._
Instantaneous retribution, immediately you react...its a gut instinct is correct..whack, whack maybe one more whack and you're done.
To whack, whack, whack,whack, whack, whack and whack again...you lost the reason, the mind following the reason for the whack and now you are confusing the animal and being brutal.

Where you are to soft on your horses AA people would tell me I don't give mine a chance to err..I'm to harsh.
They're right..._maybe_
I out think them and sense the attitude, the refusal and stop that train-wreck before it arrives at the station.
When people tell me they can't believe how well behaved my horses are... :|
Seriously,....
My horses _are_ as well-behaved as they are because I know them well, anticipate what might be a sticky spot and don't let the "sticky" become a problem in the first place..
Much comes from being so immersed in horses as it was my profession when I worked the barn scene as a stable hand up to management...
I rode not great but better than many...what I had was a instructor who was incredible and could see ahead the horse thinking it and she then could work me through what would of been nasty and messy a issue was often a non-issue. What that instructor did was teach me to think ahead and apply it far enough in advance the horse never realized they had a different thought to start with.

When I work with a unfamiliar animal all the positive is channeled to give every opportunity to them to excel...they are guided to succeed not fail.
If they fail, it is because I failed them, not them failing...
Somehow my instruction forget to include them and their brain power to understand...my failure.
I never hold it against the animal, it is me who failed them.
To me, regardless of what happened for that refusal...the horse was erred upon.
The animal was let down in communication and got lost so it stopped. :|
Then it took a beating for not being encouraged properly at the proper time...the human failed the animal not the animal failed the human.
Who dropped the ball of message carrier to the animal..._point the finger at them._
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo.._


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks for your great examples everyone! And for being very clear and rational with your responses. 

I sometimes use a crop with Rusty. I don't have a problem using it to urge a horse forward. But this was different (and it was not on one of my own horses). It was done AFTER a refusal, a few seconds after, to be clear, while the horse was facing away from the jump, therefore was being used as punishment and there were 6 or 7 strong hits. Then the rider did a big circle, approached again, and got the horse over the jump. I just felt like this was a situation that required training and didn't really see how this was going to help train this horse not to refuse in the future but I'm open to being wrong. 

This particular horse is a decent jumper, but needs a lot of leg in front of a jump. So refusals are -- as always! -- due to rider error. The rider in this case felt it necessary to punish the horse nonetheless so that it would learn not to refuse again. This horse is also very angry and unhappy in general about being ridden. Tacking her up is a nightmare because she wants to bite/kick you all the time. Both my daughter and I have done it, and we have both ridden her, but she clearly dislikes her job quite intensely. And if she tries to bite me, I have no qualms whatsoever about smacking her hard instantly. To me, that behavior needs immediate and harsh reaction. Whereas it seems that a horse that refuses a jump needs to go back to some training and/or the rider needs to work on themselves. The horse was not set up to succeed and if refusals become common, it might be necessary to take a step or two backwards and make the jumps easier or more rewarding somehow. 

In other words, pushing a horse with a tap of the crop is one thing, and it can be warranted for use as a strong deterrent when a horse displays aggressive behavior. However, hitting repeatedly with a crop as punishment after the fact seems to me like it would be on the same page as rubbing your dog's nose in his poop when he has an accident in the house, or hitting them on the nose with a newspaper -- something I thought that most animal trainers agreed we should no longer do. 

My daughter has begun working with a new coach some time ago, for the simple reason that she is moving away from jumping and towards dressage so she won't be working with this coach much longer anyway. I just didn't really know what to think of it, though my gut told me it might not be the best way to train a horse to jump happily. While I wouldn't call it abuse, I don't think it's effective and I think that in that moment, it is more about the rider venting their anger than a clear training plan.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Nope, I doubt the horse can understand what the punishment was for then. I use a crop for a refusal to go forward or sluggishness. The only time I would use a crop like that would be on the ground, if the horse kicked at me or bit at me, then no holds barred, attempts to harm human flesh are dealt with very severely, usually only once in a horse's lifetime.


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

I sometimes meander over to Youtube and watch a little Eventing. Not my sport, but fun to watch. Most of the time, I feel, using the crop throws a monkey wrench into the situation. 

If it's used before the jump, the rider loses balance and connection. After the jump and excessive use (which you can see even at the upper levels) shows the anger and frustration of the rider. I feel a lot of wipe-outs happen because the rider is fiddling around with the crop directly before the jump, confusing the horse when it needs to focus. 

I'm not at all against discipline, when appropriate. I'm not against the use of crops or whips. I am however, not a jumping expert and these are just humble observations from a dressage rider.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

This is a slightly different scenario but I think the end result is the same and I will try to keep it short but it is complicated.


My Phoenix had to be retired because she was a wobbler. The vet and I were able to establish that it had been a progressive condition. Over the years, I thought her clumsiness was due to her forward moving attitude or her opportunistic eating on the go and I never thought anything of it, never realized how much it was affecting our outings together. I wasn't consciously aware over the years of how carefully I began top the paths we took or the places we went or how very carefully I nursed her over uneven terrain.



Skip forward into Phoenix's retirement, I had no horse at that time and a neighbor had several, one she offered me to ride. We went riding together, and the horse I borrowed was a plain big brown horse of no discernible breeding. His owner assured me that Tai was as gentle and willing as they come and I was glad because I was scarred physically and emotionally from the horse I discussed in another thread on when to give up.


Everything was going swimmingly until we reached a muddy and quite deep little bog that bisected the track we were on. The woman I was riding with rode straight across with no issues but as Tai and I approached the bog he "suddenly" refused to cross. He just wouldn't go across that mud. I didn't have a crop so there was no beating involved but I tried to push and push him across. What was so bloody annoying was the woman I was riding with started to get frustrated with me, she couldn't understand why I was having so much difficulty because this horse had never refused to cross this bog before. This is another reason I don't ride with others - I like to have the time to quietly work through a problem. Anyway, eventually Tai made the leap across the bog and we carried on with no more problems other than my neighbors complete lack of faith in my ability to ride.


This incident really upset me mainly because I was embarrassed. I looked like an idiot, why did Tai refuse for me where he had never refused before? 



It took me a while of mentally replaying the incident before the penny dropped. I had spent the last however many years micro-managing Phoenix. Because she was so prone to tripping and falling I really had to ride her, keep her straight and ensure that we took the most level and even path possible. So when Tai confidently strode up to that bog, I instinctively checked him because I was so used to having to say to Phee "hey slow down, lets analyze this situation". By attempting to micro manage Tai the way I had to micro manage Phee, I had for all intents and purposes told him "hey this is scary, I'm not sure we can get across".


My point is that horses pick up the subtlest of communications from us. I think that a refusal for a horse to move forward over something will nine times out of ten start with the rider. I can't see the point of using a crop to beat a horse over an obstacle if it was the rider that initiated the block in the first place. The thing is, it only takes a micro-second of self doubt or fear of a situation to create a physical change in our own bodies - we may inadvertently over tighten the reins or stiffen our bodies in some way. We may think we are thinking Yes Yes, while our body language is screaming No No! It then only needs that micro second of doubt from us to tell that horse in that moment that that obstacle is dangerous - so we get refusal after refusal because as far as the horse is concerned nothing about the situation has actually changed.


I think horses take their cues from us and we are the ones that are often unaware of the cues that we are actually giving.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks @waresbear, @Palfrey and @kiwigirl. 

I take your point @kiwigirl - the refusals are definitely due to the rider giving off vibes that she isn't really confident. So it makes no sense to punish the horse then. 

Again, I do not have enough training experience to judge, but you are all confirming my instinct that this wasn't really a training moment. I personally don't care to ride that way, nor do I wish my daughter to pick up on this type of behavior as normal.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

Acadianartist said:


> .
> Again, I do not have enough training experience to judge, but you are all confirming my instinct that this wasn't really a training moment. I personally don't care to ride that way, nor do I wish my daughter to pick up on this type of behavior as normal.


I would put money on the fact that the rider you watched was 100% taking their frustrations out on the horse - whether it were frustrations surrounding the horses refusal or their own personal issues outside of the ring - no matter the reason, unacceptable in my book.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Setting the horse up for success is so, so important when you start tackling obstacles. I'm not much of a jumper but on the trail we occasionally come across a downed log or something to jump over and I know now that Dreams will never attempt it if I make him feel unsafe. In the past I would frequently dismount and send him over the obstacle a few times from the ground, to show him that everything was fine before we tried it mounted. Nowadays I don't have to dismount hardly ever but I still make sure Dreams is set up for success, not failure.

If he slows down on the approach I will let him, as long as he doesn't stop or turn away. If he wants to sniff it and do a safety check before he jumps it I will let him. I will sit at the takeoff of a log all day if that's what it takes to get him over it, and he knows this, so generally if an obstacle scares him he will slow down, snort and sniff for a moment or two, and then he'll cross it without me having to put leg on. I sit quietly and let him figure out that it's not going to hurt him, that he can do it if he tries, and obviously once he's over it I make a big fuss. 

Now these are all obstacles that can be jumped from a walk or a standstill - we don't attempt the 4 foot fences in a western saddle. But I would think that if you did the work, if you taught the horse over very tiny jumps to be confident in his ability to get himself and you across, that the same principle would apply. I'm firmly in the camp that smacking a horse after a refusal is pointless - simply because, in the vast majority of cases, the opportunity to effectively punish the horse is passed and now he can't link the punishment to the action. IF you could smack the horse immediately, or as he's refusing, then I don't see anything wrong with a firm spank or perhaps two, if the horse knows better. But you should never smack a horse who doesn't understand what you're asking, and you should never smack him repeatedly. Once or twice, within a second or two of the infraction, and get out. 

But then, if you've done your homework, if you've taught the horse to be confident over the obstacle in the past and shown him that he can do it safely, this shouldn't be an issue. The overwhelming majority of horses who refuse do so because they haven't been set up properly - they either lack the building blocks necessary to make the jump or they have been ridden incorrectly to the jump. Once in a VERY great while, you'll run across a horse who will refuse simply because he can, because he's been allowed to get away with it, and for those a firm leg is necessary, and sometimes a firm application of the crop AT THE RIGHT TIME. But I always feel that a horse should be praised, sometimes excessively, for trying for you. The last time I had to get off and send Dreams over a ditch, we worked on it for a long while before he was confident enough to jump it with me on him, and I immediately dismounted, dropped my cinches and loved all over him. I walked him all the way back to the trailer and we were done for the day. The next time we came across that ditch he took it with only a very slight hesitation.

-- Kai


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Cracking a horse for refusing is just adding anxiety to being in a place they already don't want to be. It doesn't compute to them as cause --> effect. There are a couple of prominent trainers in my area who do that, and have their students do that, and while I like them otherwise, I would have a serious problem being asked to do that. And if it were with my own horse (if I had one) I would have to put my foot down and I think that would get ugly. 

Warwick Schiller's answer to refusals is to not actually try to force them over the jump. Steer them to the jump but if they veer off, let them refuse and then work them in a circle by the jump, and then use the jump as the "way out" from the circling, once they're looking to leave the circle, and then give them a nice release after the jump. (This obviously only works with low jumps that are easy for the horse to jump without a lot of distance.) I watched him use this technique on an eventing horse that could be tricky to get to a fence without a fight, and she figured it out pretty quickly and was keen to take the rider over the jump after a few goes. No punishment -- just making the jump the easy, relaxed choice that gave the horse a release.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

As with anything horses and ponies learn that they can get away with refusing and it becomes a habit. 

Many a time I have ridden 'stoppers' and used my whip to keep them going forward into a fence. A couple of times of very determined riding can break the habit.

At a lecture/demonstration David Green - an Aussie event rider was mounted on a very talented mare that had developed a dirty stop. I warned him that she would try it on and she did. Everything was right at the fence, (in an indoor arena) at the very last moment she went fro actually starting to jump to flat out stopping. Before the mare knew it David had hit her three times, left, right, left practically before the mare had even finished stopping. She (TB) was marked, two stripes on the left and one on her right, all behind the rider's leg. 

He then represented her into the fence and she jumped it like it was nothing. She never offered to stop again even over much bigger fences. 

To hit a horse repeatedly is not right. 

As an aside, we held club members schooling shows every Wednesday evening. I asked a girl why she never brought her pony to them and she told me it was pointless as she would have three stops by the time she got to the third fence.
I persuaded her to come over and, sure enough fence 3 third stop thus elimination. Only this was club nights and I told her to continue. Refusals at every fence but she finished the course. They went to leave the arena and I told her to do the course again. Three stops over the whole course. Next time one refusal. That crafty mare had the brains to know three refusals and out. In a couple of weeks she learned jumping clear equalled exit or she had to go round again and again.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Do the horses hate jumping that much?


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

bsms said:


> Do the horses hate jumping that much?


A lot of horses absolutely LOVE jumping. The horse I lease will try to drag you to jumps to take you over them -- and I don't even jump her, hahahaha. The other horse I ride will seek out jumps when he's being free-lunged and fly over them.

Unfortunately a lot of horses sour on jumping with riders because they're not ridden or trained very well. Can't say I blame them. But lots of jumpers LOVE their jobs.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Dreams certainly gets excited when presented with the opportunity to be more athletic. He enjoys a good gallop, he loves getting down and dirty with a cow, and he will eagerly pop over a small jump if it's not scary. He almost always hesitates over ditches, and I've never encouraged him to enter water at speed so he always slows down to a walk to cross water, but a log or small clump of bushes out on the trail? Heck yes, he's always eager to jump those. 

-- Kai


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I got into trouble at a riding club camp I attended in Australia many,many moons ago where I got to ride a pony named Dickens. We were dong lessons on a cross country course and we were supposed to only take two jumps. Well, I'm afraid Dickens and I quite lost our heads, "accidentally" went on a jumping spree and did the whole course! That pony loved to jump and he went at that course the way a serious sugar addict goes at an all you can eat dessert buffet! And I was so overwhelmed by the joy of jumping that I hadn't the heart to stop him.



When we - in Dickens case - strutted back to the instructor I had to dismount, got chewed out by the instructor and I wasn't allowed to ride again that day lol.


I also worked with a steeple chaser in Scotland who LOVED to jump and race. I think it's a case of individual horses for individual courses.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Oh yes, Harley, my daughter's horse, loves to jump! He lights up and gets really excited. We just don't want to push him hard because he's 21 with arthritis, but she still does occasional low jumps with him. Once in a while, they still compete and are very successful. He clearly loves it, but is jumping more awkwardly now due to his hocks so they do it for fun on rare occasions, nothing more. 

This particular pony is just overjumped. Like she is jumped daily, and used for lessons by riders ranging widely in experience. She's become very sour about everything. Probably has severe ulcers too (I've never met a more girthy horse). She absolutely tries to take advantage of her riders, and I can completely understand the need to push her hard before she even thinks about refusing. What I struggled with was the effectiveness of hitting AFTER a refusal as punishment which to me, seemed like an entirely different thing. I see the consensus is that I was right to question it.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Opinions, opinions, opinions. Here's mine.


When and when not to use a whip on a spouse for not doing our wishes would be an appropriate guide to whipping a horse.


What was it that old guy said about using a whip on a ballerina dancer to improve the form? 



Yeah that one, the one that rode Arabian stallions bareback into battle with a sword in one hand and a shield in the other.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Back in the day, when I was just starting to help my trainer ride the greenies over fences, I was maybe 13 or 14 years old. We started the young ones in the "bull pen", a round pen with a 2nd round pen inside of it, leaving maybe an 8 ft lane? We would set up poles and cross poles in the lane and start the horses jumping them, low at first and getting higher as the horse developed. Horse figured out real quick that the only way out was to jump and of course, you could be in the middle and have the lunge whip to encourage the horse on. Then we brought them out and started them over little trot poles, then cross poles (maybe 18") and then 2 ft oxers, first 1, then 2 jumps, then a grid, then a small course of 4-6 jumps and so on. The jumps got higher and bigger and different, 1/4 rounds, 1/2 rounds, coops, brick walls, so on as the horses progressed. 

If a horse started ducking out, then we'd set up side poles to remind them of the bull pen. If they refused, we circled and as soon as the horse sort of sucked back, we'd tap with the whip right behind the leg. If the horse still refused, then we'd tap a little harder, circle and come back at it and a stride before they'd suck back, tap pretty hard with the whip and see if they'd keep going. If they did, pet, pet, and quit. If not, then we'd rinse & repeat but Jack (the trainer) would get behind them with a lunge whip and give us a little reinforcement and/or he'd let old Blue (heeler dog) loose on them. Guaranteed to get a BIG jump if Blue was on them. 

For about 2 weeks I got all haired out by the 1/4 or 1/2 rounds, have no idea why, I'd jump twice the size oxer or coop no problem. I just started sucking back at the rounds. So Jack got behind ME with the lunge whip and when I sucked back...POW.. I got it right across the breeches. Did that 2 or 3 times before I got cured of whatever bug was up there. It also educated me about how much whip or crop I was willing/needed to use for encouragement. It was a whole lot less than I had previously thought. 

Back then we used a lot more force and a lot less finesse, it was the norm. I didn't much care for it then, still don't. I am willing to really get after a horse when i need to but I really prefer to exhaust all the "ask nicely" tricks I have before I just wade right into them. I've found I get a lot better results now than we did then. Yes, it takes a little longer but I've found that the horses are happier, more willing for longer and just in general nicer to be around. I'd be realllllly unhappy with my trainer if I saw him/her beating on a horse just for the sake of it now than I was back then. But I didn't know then what I know now. Fortunately, good trainers seem to have evolved past that kind of training. The not so good, not so much.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

But do we give the horse the same option we give to our spouses......the option to say no? Or at the end of a long list of niceness is it still a do it or else game? Horse ain't dumb by a long shot. They know us from beginning to end and likely know what we're gonna do before we even know it.


I can't defend any of this and I sure don't always practice what I preach, but when I don't, I start preaching to me.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

I think there are different ways to use a whip. I very very rarely use mine in a punitive way. I would best describe most of my whip uses as "tap, tap, ahem, AHEM." Or as a trained cue to move a particular part of the body over. The only times I will really hit with a whip is when no is absolutely not an option, and we've exhausted all other means of communication, but that's so incredibly rare.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

There's a time and a place to allow your horse to say no, to let them do things their own way, for them to make the decisions; and there's a time and a place for you to absolutely demand that your horse do as you ask. I've ridden some pretty hairy trails in the last few years, sections where I absolutely could not let Dreams decide he didn't want to show up to work that day, and we absolutely had to do XYZ. Sure, when we're just meandering down the trail I let Dreams travel how he chooses 90% of the time - he can decide which side he wants to pass that tree on, or if he tells me he feels like a good brisk trot for a while, yeah bud, knock yourself out. 

But then there are times like our ride this past June in Yellowstone, when we crossed the Yellowstone River and we had to do it HERE, not over there or down that way. Dreams let me guide him, let me tell him where to put his feet, because there were large algae-covered stones everywhere and I didn't want him to slip and fall and hurt himself, so I 'wore the pants' for that river crossing. Or the section of the Lamar River trail that had washed out since we'd come through that morning, but hey, we had to get down that slope back to the trailer somehow, so Dreams had to do exactly as I asked him going darn near vertical with my head resting on his butt for 20 or 30 feet down the slope. 

Stuff like that, he doesn't get a say. When we're riding close to the highway with cars and trucks screaming past at 70 miles per hour, he does not get to decide he wants to swing wide around this bush and step onto the road. When we're crossing a suspension bridge 300 feet in the air, he does not get to decide to turn around halfway across. If this makes me a domineering tyrant, so be it. But when the chips are down, I need to know that my horse will do as I ask - because 9 times out of 10, when the chips are down, if my horse doesn't do as I ask we might both be killed. Until your life, and your horse's life, have depended on the horse doing as you ask, you cannot understand the value of obedience. Perhaps for popping over a fence in an arena, this is not a comparable analogy ... but I've seen some pretty crazy cross country fences where a horse refusing to do as the rider asks could result in some pretty serious injuries. 

-- Kai


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@Kaifyre, I never said a horse should be allowed to decide or be disobedient. I fully support the need to use a crop, spurs, whatever (within reason of course) to enforce a request. To me, it's part of the role of a rider to make it clear that in the end, we are the leader because in some situations, you have to be in control of the horse. I can't just let my horse gallop through a narrow trail through the forest where there are limbs I have to duck under which could knock me right off him. 

But what I was asking is whether hitting a horse repeatedly AFTER a refusal, so the moment when the rider should have set the horse up for success has passed. I question whether that is an effective training method. Most here seem to agree with me that it is not.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> @Kaifyre, I never said a horse should be allowed to decide or be disobedient. I fully support the need to use a crop, spurs, whatever (within reason of course) to enforce a request. To me, it's part of the role of a rider to make it clear that in the end, we are the leader because in some situations, you have to be in control of the horse. I can't just let my horse gallop through a narrow trail through the forest where there are limbs I have to duck under which could knock me right off him.
> 
> But what I was asking is whether hitting a horse repeatedly AFTER a refusal, so the moment when the rider should have set the horse up for success has passed. I question whether that is an effective training method. Most here seem to agree with me that it is not.


We've veered off a bit.  I think, like me, they were responding to Hondo.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

We had made a huge circle through very difficult terrain and it was too late to turn back. The tail end of the ride had monstrous washouts from recent rains. I had made decisions on just how to navigate through three of these. They were several feet deep.


As we approached the last, we halted. I was surveying what appeared to be an impassible and really monstrous washout.


I barely noticed that Hondo was gawking at something uphill. He likes to look around sometimes and I paid no attention.


Suddenly he bolted uphill at a slope and steepness I would have thought impossible. Then we came to a rock surface level with the ground. I felt him hesitate as if saying, "I didn't see this", he then veered left to a crossing area and continued. Finally he turned downhill and finally back on the trail.


During all this time I held my breath and tried to not influence him in any way.


This was during the first six months of riding and caring for Hondo who eventually became my first ever saddle horse.


If I had interfered with his decision and action I feel certain we would have both been seriously injured or worse.


I was totally blown away with what that horse did and the experience deeply influenced my attitude and deep respect for who and what my Hondo was and is.


I have several other similar memories in my memory bank but for now I'll just keep them there.


I personally do not place myself one iota above Hondo or any other horse for that matter. I try to do the same for people but often fail miserably.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Refusing to hit a horse for balking at a fence is hardly the same as creating a horse who is "out of control". Arguably, if the horse doesn't have any choice about jumping, then one is back to "Man is God to Horse" - something a lot of horses would find objectionable!

Why might a horse balk? Apart from worry about the jump....maybe he's tired? Maybe he has a sore spot? Maybe his muscles are tight? Maybe he's hot (on the inside) and wants a breather?

I'm a life-long jogger. When I jog, sometimes I feel like I'm an invincible machine. More frequently, I battle with hills, heat, plantar fasciitis, etc. I often stop and walk for 30 seconds, and sometimes I quit at a mile instead of 3-4. I prevent injuries - I'm in my 60s and still jogging in the desert - by listening to my body and adjusting what I do on any given day.

If I was a horse, my rider would whip me. Because the rider doesn't share my body and doesn't feel what I feel. And too many riders don't CARE how I feel. Or think.



> I want to mention here another experiment I made with a young horse, first handled and ridden by me and trained by me. I wanted to prove that jumping is an unnatural movement to the horse, but that any horse could become a good jumper if it was trained in such a manner that it did not realize it was doing anything unnatural. I trained it in the manner explained in the chapter on training the young horse, *but every time it jumped I rewarded it generously with a good double handful of sugar, whether it did well or not.* I never once used a whip in the training, maintaining that the moment the horse was punished it would associate jumping with pain.
> 
> The result was amazing. After some months of this training the horse would think of only one thing: to get as fast as possible into the jumping paddock and look around for a jump to leap over! *Jumping became its obsession*. When I took that horse out into the open it would still be looking for something to jump over, and when it encountered a hunt jump, wall or garden fence it would make off at a gallop and jump happily over it, then stop, look back and ask me for sugar! I could go with that horse into a huge open field with one solitary jump erected in the centre and it would immediately make a bee-line for the obstacle and jump it.
> 
> But the same horse which passed its time looking for obstacles to jump never once jumped over the low, 3-foot rails of the grazing paddock simply because I never once made it jump without a rider on its back. This is the reason why I strongly advocate NOT making horses jump without a rider; it teaches them bad habits and serves no real purpose at all. - Modern Show Jumping, Count Ilias Topiani, 1954


 @Hondo is right. *There is no partnership when one "partner" must always, in the end, submit to the desires of the other!* And that is what we're talking about here. The horse MUST jump. Unless it has reached a point where the normally docile horse decides he has to fight back.

Suppose I showed up at your home 3 times a week, pulled you out of your house, insisted you run 4 miles, with some sprints embedded in the run, while I rode alongside in an ATV and punished you if you refused to accelerate when told, or refused to keep going until "MR ATV" was satisfied! In what sense is that NOT an abusive relationship?


> ...Ridden by neck-aids, the horse is a free individual. It cannot be forced. It can not be controlled, but it can and does have to be guided. It has to have everything explained to it, and its cooperation has then to be won over. If it is asked to do anything absurd, it will merely say, "This fool rider does not know what he is talking about," and go its own way. It is hopeless to try riding by neck-aids until one has learnt the horse's language...
> 
> ...As soon as a person is prepared to follow his horse, his seat will come automatically. *His only problem then is the eternal one of the educationalist and the politician - that of getting what he wants out of his subject. This is an art, not a technique; it is a skill, not a science. When to give in, when to press forward; when to exert authority and when to withdraw it - these are moments whose recognition cannot be taught by rule of thumb. They can only be recognized by the sympathetic - by the person who is not entirely engrossed in his own welfare.* Only two laws can, I think, be said to hold for all occasions. The first is "Know your goal before you set out", for the unguided horse, like the mass of human beings, will go nowhere if left to itself. The second is "Don't give orders without a reason".
> 
> ...


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I want to emphasize that just because I try to allow my horse the option of saying no does not mean I do not reserve the same option for myself. I use it more than my horse and particularly when having to play Nurse Ratchet with his current health problems.


As far as hitting, when we first came together, I could twirl the lead at his hind end and he would immediately shy his rump away. He now ignores that. He also ignores when the lead softly hit his rump.


I've tried very hard to convince him that the human now caring for him is not going to hit him. I think he's got it. And so have I. The last six years has been a transformative life experience for me.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

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