# Safely Passing Other Trail Users



## Trails (Jan 28, 2009)

This just came in from a TrailMeister reader. It's a great resource “What a Horse Sees!” – a short film illustrating safe ways of passing horse and rider on the trail. It's well worth watching and passing on to your non horsey friends. The life you save may be your own. Just click on the pic for the page with the video.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Thanks Trails, very informative and affirms what I've discovered over the years.

We also share some of the trails with ATV riders. I know how we handle it, but would like to hear others do.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Helpful! I always tell someone hi and talk to those on the trail when I'm coming down. It'd be nice if I more people knew about trail etiquette..


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I usually give a greeting, hoping the person I meet returns it. hearing the strange object speak seems to calm most horses.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

We normally just move to the side (or into the brush) and wait for anyone to pass (be it car, dirtbike, atv, bikers, hikers, dog walkers, etc). If we're waved on, we go and stay single file on one side, walking any potential kickers partially diagonal with head towards the others and hind furthest away. I know none of the horses we generally take spook at basically anything, nor do they care if someone comes riding past them on something, though Lucky tends to be a bit prone to kick at yappy dogs. I've never had an incident with her coming into contact with anything but a tree when we first started riding, so I don't normally bother much with walking her diagonally, but most others that ride her end up not even thinking about thefact that she's a known kicker (even though I've mostly worked it out, with me at least) and someone ends up getting kicked at (sometimes I wish they would get kicked themselves >.> naughty me, eh?)

But..mostly we just move off and face the trail and wait for others to pass and continue along. We'll say hello just to bs a little and to distract them from glueing their eyes to the horses and tripping (I've seen it happen before, twice), lol, but not for any other reason. I think a good trail horse won't bat an eye at anything unless I seem tense, and that's how Lucky is for me now (even if they'res coyotes/deer/dogs running around the woods).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

How do you guys deal with dogs on the trail.. either off leash or with the person? My horse has issues with them..


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I would work your horse through the issue at home with a dog that will actually listen and is horse safe..And then a dog that will bark but is still horse safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trails (Jan 28, 2009)

Joe4d said:


> I usually give a greeting, hoping the person I meet returns it.


That's about all that we can do. I've spoken with bicyclists about it before and a lot of people think that if they're quiet it is easier on the horse. They don't realize that the sound of a human lets the horse know they're not a cougar.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Helpful video! I'll pass that along.

Most people around here are pretty respectful towards Lacey and I. It helps that she's not afraid of cars, dogs, bikes, skateboards, whatever. Nothing phases her. It seems like she sees it once, it doesn't kill her, and she files it away in her mind for forever. 
My least favorite though are bicyclists. They always come zooming up from behind on this really silent bikes and just zip past like nobodies business. I would much prefer it if they at least slowed down and maybe called out to let me know that they're passing us.



Skyseternalangel said:


> How do you guys deal with dogs on the trail.. either off leash or with the person? My horse has issues with them..


For loose dogs, I have my horse stop until the owner can deal with their dog. I find that by taking movement out of the equation (most dogs seem to go into "hunting mode" when they see a moving large animal), the dog stops caring about us so much and Lacey can calm herself down by analyzing the dog.

For leashed dogs, I let Lacey decide. If she's acting scared, I have her stop until the dog passes by and moves down the trail. If she's fine and the dog is fine (aka the owner has it under control) I smile at the owner and keep going. If Lacey's fine with the dog but the owner is having difficulty controlling the dog, I have Lacey stop and keep her stopped until the dog+owner have got themselves figured out.
That being said, Lacey is very rarely afraid of dogs so I'm not sure what I'd do if she were really scared of them.

To get your horse used to dogs in the first place, what Iseul said.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Iseul said:


> I would work your horse through the issue at home with a dog that will actually listen and is horse safe..And then a dog that will bark but is still horse safe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah I figured that's what I would have to do.. now I just need to get a dog 



Wallaby said:


> For loose dogs, I have my horse stop until the owner can deal with their dog. I find that by taking movement out of the equation (most dogs seem to go into "hunting mode" when they see a moving large animal), the dog stops caring about us so much and Lacey can calm herself down by analyzing the dog.


Well there was one time I was riding my horse in the outdoor arena and these 2 dogs come tearing into the arena.. full blast like puppies do and Sky was very afraid. We tried to stop, and did.. but then they came over and started to bark and he backed up quite a lot.. making the dog more excited and kept barking. 

The owner called her dogs back to go on a trail ride, she didn't say much else to me or apologize... but I didn't really know what to do since he wasn't feeling safe enough to stand still.. I guess ground work with dogs? Dog desensitizing?


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> How do you guys deal with dogs on the trail.. either off leash or with the person? My horse has issues with them..


I turn towards them and chase them.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm not very nice at all to people or animals who upset my horse.

I can get downright nasty if need be.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

mildot said:


> I'm not very nice at all to people or animals who upset my horse.
> 
> I can get downright nasty if need be.


Yeah I can be the same.. just I don't know the appropriate way to respond with him if that makes sense. If I was leading him, it'd be a different story. But on his back, he's as much a part of it as I am.



goneriding said:


> I turn towards them and chase them.


Well.. we could try that, but the last dog he went after, nearly bit him in the face.. then he stepped on it running away but the dog still goes at his heels from time to time. Makes me angry.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> How do you guys deal with dogs on the trail.. either off leash or with the person? My horse has issues with them..


dogs off a leash or not positively controlled are fair game as far as I am concerned. If the get punted, too bad so sad.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> dogs off a leash or not positively controlled are fair game as far as I am concerned. If the get punted, too bad so sad.


Concur.

Maybe carrying a fox hunting whip would not be a bad idea.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Walkamile said:


> We also share some of the trails with ATV riders. I know how we handle it.


I'd like to know what your experiences and techniques for dealing with that are.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

mildot said:


> I'd like to know what your experiences and techniques for dealing with that are.


Sure. If they are coming from behind, I get just off the trail and have the horse positioned so he/she can see in that direction, but not directly facing. Perpendicular I guess.

The ATV's can't hear me if I yell to them, and sometimes they can't see me until right there,and they are moving much faster then myself, so I want to be off the trail. I then wait for them to see me, and so far, they have all stopped and even shut off they engines. Most times I have them go ahead of me (most horses are much more confident "chasing" then being chased.).

If they are coming from the front, I may do the same, but usually they see me depending on the lay of the trail and stop and wait for me to pass.

I have not had a negative experience with any ATVers, and always thank them kindly for their consideration. Dirt bikes the same thing , been very positive.

Now, cars on roads, that's another story!:roll:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

mildot said:


> Concur.
> 
> Maybe carrying a fox hunting whip would not be a bad idea.


Maybe if your horse is smaller than 16hh.. mine's 17hh anyhow. I couldn't reach if I wanted to


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Maybe someone can enlighten me on this: I really don't understand how being rude to someone (via chasing/punting/hurting their dog) is going to encourage them to be more respectful of horses in the long run. 

Maybe it's a difference in the people...because people around here are extremely respectful towards me and even though their dogs are off leash, I've never had a serious issue. Yeah, I'd had dogs bound up to us, dogs bark at us, dogs jump around Lacey's feet, dogs growl at us and not let us pass them etc but once the owner noticed, they got their dog under control immediately.
However, Oregon is pretty much made up of hippies who love all animals so maybe we're a little more animal savvy here or something. :lol: Maybe you guys are dealing with meaner dogs and dumber owners...

I know personally, if a horseback rider hurt my dog just because it was a loose dog around their horse (and I wasn't a horseback rider), I would most certainly hold a grudge against horseback riders in general. 
I just feel like being kind and respectful is a possibly better way to create respectful relationships for all.

Maybe you guys are dealing with different situations than I am... What makes you choose the aggressive route vs the passive "not a threat" route? 

And I mean no disrespect with this, I really would like to know. I've seen this attitude towards off-leash dogs all over the forum and I want to understand. 


Sorry, mildly OT here.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Maybe if your horse is smaller than 16hh.. mine's 17hh anyhow. I couldn't reach if I wanted to


Oh they will reach a dog from a 17.2hh horse, believe me. 

They are long one of their uses is to dangle the lash down to the ground to keep hounds away from horses so they don't get kicked. They are not used to hit the hounds though....


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Wallaby said:


> Maybe someone can enlighten me on this: I really don't understand how being rude to someone (via chasing/punting/hurting their dog) is going to encourage them to be more respectful of horses in the long run.
> 
> Maybe it's a difference in the people...because people around here are extremely respectful towards me and even though their dogs are off leash, I've never had a serious issue. Yeah, I'd had dogs bound up to us, dogs bark at us, dogs jump around Lacey's feet, dogs growl at us and not let us pass them etc but once the owner noticed, they got their dog under control immediately.
> However, Oregon is pretty much made up of hippies who love all animals so maybe we're a little more animal savvy here or something. :lol: Maybe you guys are dealing with meaner dogs and dumber owners...
> ...


There ARE a lot of rude people in this world. Consider yourself lucky that you don't seem to run into many of them.

Today there are more and more self absorbed people in the world and do not care one whit about the concerns of others. You see them yakking loudly into their phone in inappropriate places or not caring one bit that their precious little ones are disrupting dinner for other restaurant guests.

On the subject of loose dogs, I think JoeD's point is that he's not going to lose any sleep over a loose dog getting kicked because his horse got tired of being harassed or accosted. If that happens, the dog isn't at fault, the horse isn't at fault, and the rider isn't at fault. The only one at fault is the dog's owner for having a loose dog that he can't control.

Personally, I would MUCH prefer my horse to kick an offending loose dog rather than freak out, bolt, and me run a good chance of getting seriously injured in a fall or by smashing one of my legs against a trailside tree.

I can also see where chasing down an obnoxious self absorbed mountain biker might teach them a lesson. I'd rather have some mountain bikers learn to stay away from horses through intimidation than let them continue their ways and scare a horse bad enough to injure or kill the rider in a nasty fall. It's unfortunate, but some people only learn through negative reinforcement.

And let's not mention that many states, including mine, have laws that allow people to kill dogs that are threatening people or harassing livestock. When a loose dog is scaring a horse with a rider, he is both endangering a person and harassing livestock. 

It's true that one always gets more bees with honey than with vinegar. But some people simply don't care about others and the only way to get through to them is to make it painful to be a jerk.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

mildot said:


> I'd like to know what your experiences and techniques for dealing with that are.


Great article/site!

We sometimes take ATV trails as shortcuts to places where they can't go. We normally never see them but it was a SUPER busy weekend. My NYE ride was CRAZY with ATV's, dirtbikes, rock crawlers, and buggies. Our horses are used to them, as we have a Razor ourselves so that's key. We were riding my daughters new gelding and didn't know how he'd act so we were on our toes with him. Thankfully he acted like an old pro! Which is why we got him for her!!
As far as dealing with them... I always hold up my arm for them to slow down and stop. It's good practice for them and who knows if your horse is going to have a weird "moment" and forget all his training. I hope it gets the ATV rider in the practice of stopping or at least slowing to the side as a horse passes. You never know. We did have a jerk group ahead of us who would stop every mile to get out and chug some brews and block the trails. That ****ed me off a bunch! They never seemed to pull off where others could pass and we would have to wait on them to get one down. I am usually nice to kids and let them pet the horses but ours hadn't been out in a while and I didn't want to take any chances, I was also ticked at their parents for blocking the trail so I sent them on their way!
When an ATV was coming to pass we could hear them ahead of time and looked for a place to "park". Good practice getting my horse to stop and stand for a while when on the trail, sometimes he likes to go go go.

As far as strange dogs... I'm scared to death of them. When I was younger and riding alone my horse and I were attacked by 4 German/chow crosses. They were all over her, one latched on her tail, but she wouldn't attack with me on her. I jumped off to help her and she killed three of them and seriously wounded one. Came back to me bloody shaking her head like "what was that!". The best horse I've ever owned!

We trail with at least one dog now for "protection". Last Saturday we took our coyote/german shep. out. She is CRAZY! She disappeared when people were around into the woods, then would pop back up when they passed. When we stopped at the falls ATV's were there and she hid behind a tree next to where I was lunching. A lady came up to pet my horse and she popped her head around and growled at her... don't touch my horse! One look and she cut it out, but I like knowing I have a protector with me!

Whew, that got long! sorry...


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

In our state we can kill dogs too if they threaten livestock, and we have had to take out a few strays/dumped dogs because they were chasing the horses and goats, growling at us.

What gets me is people who take their dogs out or do not leash ones that are not 1,000% trained to come. How insane! It's like letting your horse loose because they follow or come to you in the pasture! I feel no remorse letting my horse take one out. I give fair warning, then allow nature to take it's course. My horses prefer fight over flight!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

FlyGap said:


> When I was younger and riding alone my horse and I were attacked by 4 German/chow crosses. They were all over her, one latched on her tail, but she wouldn't attack with me on her. I jumped off to help her and she killed three of them and seriously wounded one. Came back to me bloody shaking her head like "what was that!". The best horse I've ever owned!.


Now that's a good idea, to dismount and let the horse be free to kick *** and take names.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I was young, 14? At first we tried to run but that made the chase worse and one got on her hindquarters and latched onto her tail. She just stood there and took it and wouldn't buck or kick with me on her. So I HAD to get off or else she would have been MORE shredded to bits. Really, I dropped the reins fending off the dogs and trying to get the one off her tail... she took it from there! Would any of my horses now leave me in the dust? Probably! So I don't recommend it. But it was awesome! Especially when she came back to me instead of hauling *** home!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Another solution is to break the horse to gunfire and just shoot the dogs.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I was riding a while back, came around a corner and caught a woman in the process of pulling down her pants for a pee! I hollered "we're here!!!!"! She jumped and hauled her pants up and offered a thanks!
BUT THEN!!!! She tried to call my dog away from my side to pet her! Without asking! Luckily Lola didn't leave me, goood dog!, and growled in her direction!
I'm so proud of her, taught her not to talk to strangers! Thats like calling over someones child so you can touch them. Weird and STUPID.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Wallaby said:


> Maybe someone can enlighten me on this: I really don't understand how being rude to someone (via chasing/punting/hurting their dog) is going to encourage them to be more respectful of horses in the long run.


Personally, in CO everyone was very good about not spooking the horses. Even on roads, they'd slow down and whatnot.. dogs were kept on leash or were obedient to not cause trouble. 

In MD, I've noticed people don't give a hoot what their dogs do.. I've seen so many rodeos from a pooch zipping around crazily barking or nipping heels of another horse. Or barking or whatnot. Luckily my horse is more scared of being in trouble with me, than the dog.. so it hasn't been a HORRID spook, but enough to tick me off. On the ground, he hides behind me if there's a dog about, because they don't leave him be and the owner doesn't do anything about it.

I'm a very nice person.. but no one should turn their dogs loose if they can't even behave. It's so dangerous for both parties. 

I've never kicked a dog, but they seem to know to stay away from me as I don't fall for puppy eyes. If they're misbehaving, I'll tell them off and send them off.. or make them lie down. I honestly don't care if I upset the owner because it's Sky's life and my life on the line. 



mildot said:


> Oh they will reach a dog from a 17.2hh horse, believe me.
> 
> They are long one of their uses is to dangle the lash down to the ground to keep hounds away from horses so they don't get kicked. They are not used to hit the hounds though....


Oh.. I see what you mean. I thought you meant a regular whip and I was laughing to myself thinking about how I'd have to lean 3/4 off the saddle just to reach the tip of the whip to the ground  

That's a good idea.. or maybe I can carry a tennis ball with me and throw it when they're bothering us. Not my business what happens to them after that but it'd be a good decoy.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I used to chase my neighbor's dogs when they chased my horse. They stopped chasing us. I am really glad because the horse I ride now is a lot more high strung than the old gelding that had so much fun chasing dogs. As a rule, most people's pets don't have an interest in bothering you. They just bark and you probably shouldn't be out on a trail if your horse is not broke enough to stop if he gets a little bit startled. 

We have a friend that was seriously injured by some pitbulls that actually attacked the horse he was riding. The horse was startled and bucked him off. Then the dogs attacked the man. The horse actually stayed with him and drove the dogs away. Law enforcement got involved with this case. I'm not sure how it came out, but these were dangerous animal. 

Your average pet is really not that dangerous. They don't mean any harm.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Celeste said:


> Your average pet is really not that dangerous. They don't mean any harm.


Their intentions do not matter. Only the result of their actions. When they spook the horse you're on and you crack your bones on the ground, then the average pet is really dangerous.

See what I mean?


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> On the ground, he hides behind me if there's a dog about, because they don't leave him be and *the owner doesn't do anything about it*.


:evil:

See that's the part that just p-ss me off. And because of the butthead owner, the dog is going to pay when he gets kicked, whipped, or worse.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Yep, I see what you mean. My horses are pretty good about dogs. I guess some aren't. We once got spooked by a poodle. He hid behind a hill and jumped out at the horses. They bolted and ran like crazy. It wasn't that hard to slow them down once they realized that it wasn't anything all that serious.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Celeste said:


> As a rule, most people's pets don't have an interest in bothering you. They just bark and you probably shouldn't be out on a trail if your horse is not broke enough to stop if he gets a little bit startled.
> 
> Your average pet is really not that dangerous. They don't mean any harm.


False. My horse does nothing, I do nothing. We just are being. And we get dogs barking at us for no reason. We don't even make eye contact, we don't get into their space. They go after us and that's what makes me angry. I wish I could get off of my horse and chase down those dogs with him or take my shoe off and throw it at them.. but what good is a trail ride or even just BEING without a dog ruining it for my horse and I? 

Any mammal, including people, are dangerous. They don't mean harm, but they can change or do bad things at the drop of a hat. 

My horse is broke, my horse minds his manners and doesn't run around like a bronco when they bark. But if they run up to him in their bowing stance, barking and jumping around, or zipping around like some kind of crazy rocket, or nipping his pasterns or lunging at his face.. HOW does that make it my horse's fault? That he isn't "broke enough" to be out on trails?

He is fine. Like I said earlier, the people do nothing. If they did, then I'd agree with you, it'd be my horse over reacting because I didn't prepare him. But it's not on our end.



mildot said:


> :evil:
> 
> See that's the part that just p-ss me off. And because of the butthead owner, the dog is going to pay when he gets kicked, whipped, or worse.


Exactly. Which is why I always try to handle it peacefully. I stop my horse, I get down, I make them sit and stay or I send them off. If they are vicious, then I take a more aggressive stance until they back down. And if they STILL don't go away, I will take my shoe off and throw it at them!!



:-x

But on a nicer note, I know now what other people do to prepare their horses for dogs. I'll work on desensitizing him further and preparing him for any kind of dog encounter  It'll help him.. but unfortunately it won't help the dogs.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Sounds like you ride around some bad dogs. Guess I am lucky.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Celeste said:


> Sounds like you ride around some bad dogs. Guess I am lucky.


They're just puppies whose owners don't care what they do, or at least it seems that way. The older ones with responsible owners my horse and I love. We had one in our arena (again, dogs should NOT be in the arena with a horse!) that was following its owner riding the horse, and then switched over to me and Sky.. and Sky happily trotted around and the dog literally praced next to us. It was darling  

It's more the owner than the dog. A good owner typically can handle their dog.

Sorry if I got hulk-a fied in that last post. I don't mean to be rude, I just get so passionate when it comes to my horse's well being. And mine.. one wrong move and no more me!


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Skyseternalangel - The thought of you chucking your boots or shoes at a dog off horseback made me crack up!!! LOLOL!!!

The ball idea is kind of cool, but what if they start expecting it... I don't know.

The thing that really GETS ME BADDDDD is when people think they are doing you a favor exposing your horse or helping you train them for ATV's, guns, dogs, bikes, etc!! No thanks &#!7 head, I do that on my own time, my own way!


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

When I am in camp and I see a dog or two running around the grounds, I don't mind. Usually they are not harming the horses or people, it is if they get aggressive then it becomes an issue. 

On trail one time I can remember coming to a crossroad and after a bit on the road before entering the trail again two dogs came out from a house way off in the distance. They were aggressive and one was nipping at my mares feet. She was trying to kick it and it kept coming at her heels. I decided to turn and face the dog. I did and it stopped and looked puzzled. I turned back around and started walking in the other direction and that darn dog started up again. I then turned and started chasing him for quite a ways. He ran off into a bush. I turned and started walking and he never came back, along with his mate.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

FlyGap said:


> Skyseternalangel - The thought of you chucking your boots or shoes at a dog off horseback made me crack up!!! LOLOL!!!
> 
> The ball idea is kind of cool, but what if they start expecting it... I don't know.
> 
> The thing that really GETS ME BADDDDD is when people think they are doing you a favor exposing your horse or helping you train them for ATV's, guns, dogs, bikes, etc!! No thanks &#!7 head, I do that on my own time, my own way!


Hahah I'll do what needs to be done! I once threw a slipper at a horse who was pinning his ears at a foal. Wouldn't let him drink. I doubt it hurt him but it did surprise him. 

Yeah that's a good point. If it's a dog I've never met before, might be something to try. That or carry dog biscuits and throw them into the brush. The owner can have fun chasing after the dogs.

But maybe a bad idea because then the dogs could approach other horse/rider pairs and bug them waiting for treats/ball throw.

AGREE! Someone tried to 'desensitize' my horse to jackets. He wasn't my horse at the time, I just worked where he was at. They whacked him with it and covered his face. He was so scared... for months he wouldn't go near anyone wearing a jacket. He'd gallop across his pasture for hours if he saw a jacket.

So frustrating.

I can imagine how it is for you and ATV/guns/etc. 

It's funny cause atm I'm working on desensitizing my horse to men. He's getting better with them, he's stopped attacking them and then he's stopped fleeing. But he's still scared. Need to find more men.. so if we run into any on the trail, we're ready!


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Well, a lot of people have said things that make sense, so I won't comment on any of the trail etiquette and safety, but I have to comment on the video.

Bear in mind that I am not on broadband, so an 18 minute video would take me about 45 minutes to watch. After waiting and watching 3 minutes of Mr. -uh - what's my name? and the repetitions already in 3 minutes, I gave up. Smacked far too much of those government training videos I've been forced to watch all morning so then I can have the privilege of writing a multiple choice 20 question test for the remaining four hours in the afternoon.

Honestly, could they find anyone _less_ interesting to host the video? Does it get any tolerable for a reasonably intelligent person?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I watched the video. Good but could use some editting as it is really repetitive.

I often have to tell people that go way off the trail into the bushes , trying to give me more room, that that only scares the horse more. He is like, "what's that thing waiting over there in the bushes?" I tell them, come out in plain sight, please. ANd, I have to often repeat many times, "could you please speak up so my horse knows you are a human being?"

off leash dogs. I'd like to eat them! I hear dog is tastey!


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

NorthernMama said:


> Honestly, could they find anyone _less_ interesting to host the video? Does it get any tolerable for a reasonably intelligent person?


Sorry, I meant: Does it get tolerable... not any tolerable.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I always invite people to come say hi to my horse, which they do. And then we talk about how he is so big and pretty. Sky loves being talked about. But I agree... bush creepin' is not good! Nor is a cowering person..

NothernMama: I muted it the 2nd time around and it was much easier to digest. I wish it came with captions though


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

In regards to dogs - we ride in suburbia most of the time, on the greenways where people walk their dogs, a lot of the time off leash. Most people see us and grab their dog before it notices us. Most dogs who do react, are the ones who have never seen a horse before. I don't blame them for being curious. 

If a strange dog is looking like reacting, we stop. Reins loose but ready to be shortened, and I tend to scratch my mares wither to reassure her. If the dog runs up, I let her do whatever she needs to do to feel safe. Generally she just watches the dog. The only time a dog tried to bite her heels, she kicked out until it left. 

I would never encourage my horse to attack or chase dogs. My horses are only allowed to attack if the dog does so first. I already have one horse who tries to attack small animals and it is a liability, especially on a farm. 

Most people whose digs get away from then are very apologetic. We had a lovely chat with one man one morning while his blue heeler pup took some time stalking us to see what we were. 

I agree with Wallaby - courtesy is better than aggression unless absolutely warranted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

wild_spot said:


> In regards to dogs - we ride in suburbia most of the time, on the greenways where people walk their dogs, a lot of the time off leash. Most people see us and grab their dog before it notices us. Most dogs who do react, are the ones who have never seen a horse before. I don't blame them for being curious.
> 
> If a strange dog is looking like reacting, we stop. Reins loose but ready to be shortened, and I tend to scratch my mares wither to reassure her. If the dog runs up, I let her do whatever she needs to do to feel safe. Generally she just watches the dog. The only time a dog tried to bite her heels, she kicked out until it left.
> 
> ...


This was very helpful  I wish more people apologized for their dogs' behavior.. or at least did something about it. Then I wouldn't be so grumpy about it.

I agree with Wallaby too  But sometimes it's very much called for.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

having the horse turn to "chase" the scary thing is often helpful. We have some very bold coyotes in our woods. If they wont' run off when I say, "shoo! go on!" then I will have Mac move toward them with an intent in my body of "let's go get 'em!" If I were to turn Mac's back toward them, he'd be really scared.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

That would make sense.. going back to the "horses feel safer chasing than being chased."

I may have to try that with the dogs. Not go after them of course but make him walk towards them. He usually out muscles me in those scenarios though, which is how I tell when we are due for a ground work day


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Wallaby said:


> Maybe it's a difference in the people...because people around here are extremely respectful towards me and even though their dogs are off leash, I've never had a serious issue. Yeah, I'd had dogs bound up to us, dogs bark at us, dogs jump around Lacey's feet, dogs growl at us and not let us pass them etc but once the owner noticed, they got their dog under control immediately.
> However, Oregon is pretty much made up of hippies who love all animals so maybe we're a little more animal savvy here or something. :lol: Maybe you guys are dealing with meaner dogs and dumber owners...
> 
> I know personally, if a horseback rider hurt my dog just because it was a loose dog around their horse (and I wasn't a horseback rider), I would most certainly hold a grudge against horseback riders in general.
> ...


Just curious where you are riding. I do agree that most dog owners in Oregon are polite but I run across a couple every year that just stand there and let their dogs carry on.

My typical response to the dogs depend on the situation:

-Non aggressive dog with an owner trying to control them, no action.
-Non aggressive dog with an owner not trying to control them gets a short chase. My horse doesn't spook at dogs but the next might so hopefully the owner will take the lesson to heart.
-Aggressive dog with owner trying to control them gets until the dog is almost to us, then I chase them.
-Aggressive dog with owner not trying to control them. Dog is dead or in the next county, depends on how fast that dog is.

I've only ever had one owner complain, most are apologetic. Also of interest, I've never ran into an aggressive dog without an owner around. They've always been more curious then anything and sometimes trot along with us for a while.

Everyone else I've run into on rides have been most polite around the horses except once. Some idiot out at Sand Lake kept buzzing me on his quad while I was ponying a young horse along for training. Luckily neither one of the horses cared. The guy stopped 50ft away and shouted at me that they had to learn someday. I shouted back a few choice words and kept going.


If the dog gets hurt, so be it. I've only ever seen 1 owner get upset rather then apologetic but that was his problem.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

See, my issue with trying to chase dogs is that a lot of dogs become aggressive whine they are scared, even if they weren't in the first place. 

If a dog is curious and not aggressive, we let them suss us out. By not running OR chasing we aren't threatening or prey-like - it becomes a non issue and they will be less concerned next time they see a horse. If you chase them, it becomes a big deal, and horses become scary - most scared dogs will bark or become aggressive in order to protect themselves or their owner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Darrin said:


> Just curious where you are riding. I do agree that most dog owners in Oregon are polite but I run across a couple every year that just stand there and let their dogs carry on.


Gresham, OR. Another thing could be that I'm riding pretty much in the heart of a very suburban, with a tinge of rural, area. Perhaps if I rode more in the backcountry or on more trail trails, I'd have different opinion of dogs on the trail.



wild_spot said:


> See, my issue with trying to chase dogs is that a lot of dogs become aggressive whine they are scared, even if they weren't in the first place.
> 
> If a dog is curious and not aggressive, we let them suss us out. By not running OR chasing we aren't threatening or prey-like - it becomes a non issue and they will be less concerned next time they see a horse. If you chase them, it becomes a big deal, and horses become scary - most scared dogs will bark or become aggressive in order to protect themselves or their owner.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thoroughly agree. That's pretty much my thought as well. You worded it so much better than I ever could though! 



This has been very enlightening! I see where you guys are coming from a lot better now. Maybe it's a personality/horse personality thing as well as an outside factors thing. 
Something that seems to have been brought up a lot is that the dog could spook the horse and the human could be hurt... I'm probably just lucky, but falling off and getting hurt due to a spook is pretty much the least of my worries. 
The horse that I'm riding refuses to let me fall off and I have a pretty good seat so I haven't fallen off in 3 years (riding at least twice a week, average of 3-4 days a week). However, I have ridden a few horses where one spook and spin could unseat the best horseperson. So, I suppose that if you're riding the kind of horse that can unseat you easily, falling off and becoming injured due to a dog is definitely more of a worry. 
Looking at it that way, it's easy for me to understand why I, on a horse that's next to impossible to come off of, feel safe sitting a dog out while someone else, on a horse that can unseat then, might feel less safe waiting to see what their horse/the dog might do.

There are other factors, obviously, but that at least explains my attitude towards dogs, when I think about it in depth.

Thank you for taking the time to share your views. I have more respect for why someone might take the aggressive route now.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Wallaby said:


> I have more respect for why someone might take the aggressive route now.


I could probably ride my horse's spook.. but I rather him not spook in the first space.. which means I rather the dogs not invade his personal space or whatnot. One can dream I guess :/

It's great to be able to understand others' views. Being open minded has taught me so much and made me much more aware of others and what they see/are feeling.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm not so concerned about a crow hop or a spook in place like jigging or spinning.

I'm more concerned about a panic bolt. That's uber dangerous in a trail with uneven terrain, trees everywhere, and maybe people coming up behind you.

I've been surrounded by a trio of loose aggressive dogs on foot before. That may be another reason why I am so intolerant of this problem.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I had to start penning my own dog while I ride. She LOVES the horses and she doesn't have sense enough to stay out from under them. She follows along for a while. Then she wanders into the woods. After a while, she comes racing out of the bushes, thrilled to see us. She makes my mare a nervous wreck. If I decide to ride my daughter's old horse on occasion I let the dog go along because she is bombproof.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

Wallaby said:


> Maybe you guys are dealing with different situations than I am... What makes you choose the aggressive route vs the passive "not a threat" route?
> 
> And I mean no disrespect with this, I really would like to know. I've seen this attitude towards off-leash dogs all over the forum and I want to understand.



I am a little late to this conversation, but think I can offer some insight. While I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself, I can relate to the "aggressive route" folks.

This might be more of a "geographic" thing. I think the "aggressive" posture is certainly more prevalent on the east coast.

I live in a very crowded suburban area. The few trails that exist are very heavily regulated by use. Horses here, bikes there, hikers over there and no ATVs anywhere. (I don't agree with this, as I believe that multi-use trails are very workable). 

I am NOT allowed to use miles and miles of trails because they were taken away from the horses and given to the bikers. Each year, different groups take away more equestrian space.

That's life and I deal with it. I don't bring my horse to their bike trail or their dog park. I stay on the limited trails allocated to horses.

Unfortunately for dogs (I have three myself) there is NO open space they can legally be off-leash. Note that the lack of off-leash access makes lack of off-leash training a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So what do irresponsible dog owners do? They take their dogs to the equestrian trails to run off-leash. They can't get "caught" because we have no enforcement presence on the trails.

I always start with the "nice" approach. Many people are aware of their surrounding and know they are on a horse trail. A horse approaches, they leash their dog and move off to the side. When I see these people I smile, say hello and thank them for their courtesy. Positive reinforcement can be a powerful tool. I don't care that they are trespassing - I also have dogs and I "get it."

Then there are those other people. They only care about themselves and think the world was built for them. There are actually dog owners who trespass on the horse trails who have called the park police to complain about horses scaring their off-leash dogs! These are the half-wits who leave their dog loose when (or if) they see you coming. They have NO IDEA how much damage a horse can do (intentionally or not).

My horse can handle dogs just fine. But if one started nipping at his heels, I can bet the dog would have a hoof to the head. I wouldn't TRY to make that happen, but it would be a natural reaction from the horse. The fault would be the dog's owner. No matter how big a twit someone is, I would feel horrible if my horse killed his dog.

When I see these people, I very clearly take the "aggressive" route. I don't slow down and a usually yell something like "Watch out! He might run you down." All while "seeming" to ride a bit out of control. It helps that I'm a fairly big guy riding a fairly large horse.

This will usually make even the most belligerent dog owner think twice about messing with a horse. At least the look of horror on their faces indicate that's the case. Next time they see a horse coming down the trail, I suspect the impression I made will have them move their dog out of the way rather than play chicken (or laugh while their dog chases the horse). If that next horse is a new trail horse or a nervous kid our for the first time, there is a possibility I saved someone - or their horse/dog - from getting hurt.

I don't think most people would ever want to actually hurt someone or their animal. On the other hand, many non-horse people have no clue how dangerous a horse can be. Sometimes a little wake up call can help get the message across. Some folks get it with "speak softly" and some need the "big stick."

All IMHO.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

Darrin said:


> Everyone else I've run into on rides have been most polite around the horses except once. Some idiot out at Sand Lake kept buzzing me on his quad while I was ponying a young horse along for training. Luckily neither one of the horses cared. The guy stopped 50ft away and shouted at me that they had to learn someday. I shouted back a few choice words and kept going.



A lariat can be very useful in a situation like that.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I don't think that I have ever owned a farm dog that failed to get clobbered by a horse once. They usually survive just fine and they get a serious education. I think that a non-fatal kick can be a life saver. If my horse kicks somebody's dog, there is not much that I can do about it and I am not too worried if the poor dog is not killed. He will have graduated from equine university just like my dog.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

I agree, most dogs benefit from meeting a hoof at least once in their life. Unfortunatly some of the worse offenders are to fast to be caught by hoof and is shepards. Their instincts kick in to "herd" and they are so darn fast on their feet it takes a really fast fire horse to catch them.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Yesterday I met the barn neighbor's yappy dogs on my barn owner's corn field. They immediately charged the horses.

Rather than wait to see what my horse would do (nothing/bolt/buck/kick) I just pushed her forward into the dogs.

Horse got schooled into not fearing at least those two dogs. Dogs got schooled that horses are big and will come at them, and didn't get cold cocked (this time). Horse did not freak out and I didn't hit the hard frozen ground.

Win win in my book.

PS, I definitely do not want my horse to associate all dogs with kicking, since I plan on fox hunting with her at some time in the near future. Kicking a hound will pretty much get you off the invitation list ASAP.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Tazmanian Devil said:


> A lariat can be very useful in a situation like that.


Or a hunting whip


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

A friend brings his dog along on our camp outs. I love dogs...but I like well behaved dogs. Dogs that heel to their master. This dog will run in and out of the horses on the trail and I have confidence issues that are improving 10 fold. But last year we were riding and my gelding kept charging the dog. I kept yelling at her to move off. I finally got off of Biscuit and told the others to go on. Hubby stayed with me and then I remounted and caught up later. That is honest to God, the WORST my horse has ever been. He was a handful that day. Our last camping trip of the year we were out and got caught in a storm. We were cantering, trotting back pretty fast and here the dog comes barreling out of the woods right up behind my gelding while at a very fast extended trot and he kicks out at her nearly unseating me. :evil: 

I would feel bad if my friends dog got her head caved in. But geez louise....dogs that don't heel have no place on the trail. We came upon another rider in McKinney Roughs park. She was an endurance rider and had her two Corgi's with her. They stayed quietly by her horse's heels and never did do more than look at us. They moved when she moved and that was it. 

Trails can produce all kinds of stuff to spook the horses but why drag along something that is guaranteed to spook someone's horse or make them a nervous wreak? I have rode with dogs that were terrific....that I can take but one zipping in and out of the horses and under their feet bites. (same dog ran under another friend's horse when he rode up to friend's campsite to say we were ready to go....dog under horses feet, horse reared up and went over - rider friend had huge bruise on leg...and was lucky that is all it was). :evil:


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I had an old dalmatian years ago that was a wonderful trail dog. He stayed about 25 feet in front of my horse. He kept the deer, turkeys, snakes and other varmints off the trail so that the horses didn't get spooked. He was really good with horses and with people and was a joy to ride with. I remember more than one incident that he kept me from getting spooked for sure.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Celeste said:


> I had an old dalmatian years ago that was a wonderful trail dog. He stayed about 25 feet in front of my horse. He kept the deer, turkeys, snakes and other varmints off the trail so that the horses didn't get spooked. He was really good with horses and with people and was a joy to ride with. I remember more than one incident that he kept me from getting spooked for sure.


 Sounds like a dog worth his weight in gold.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

He was a great dog. I got him for free because somebody didn't like him. He lived to be 14...............


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

I recognize the fact that many of the people who share use of trails are not horse people. They don't understand the "fight or flight" responses of horses, they don't really care _why_ horses respond to things the way they do. Other people _think_ they know all about horses because they once went on a guided trail ride while on vacation and were able to get their horse to move forward, stop, and turn.

If a horse gets jumpy or jittery, the other person's first reaction is "that horse is WILD!" Or, if a horse turns to kick, they think "that horse is DANGEROUS! I wasn't doing anything. . .I was just standing here quietly, behind a bush on the side of the trail, and when I stepped out from behind it to say 'hello' to the rider, that horse ATTACKED me!"

I consider it my job to handle my own horse, but I will also try to educate the person (politely) on how to behave when they encounter a horse on trail. 

When it comes to loose dogs, I try to give the owner a fair chance to call/collect their dog(s), and I also take into consideration the behavior of the dog. 

My horse _loves_ dogs, anyway - we once encountered a pack of wriggling Beagle puppies that were out on their first day of "field training." They were all milling around my horse's feet and trying to lick his nose, and he was just in heaven.:lol: I chatted with the owners for a few minutes, then we went our separate ways. No harm done. The pups got a positive meeting with a horse, and my horse got to take a break and "visit" with some adorable pups.

But I have also been on trail rides where some suburbian weekend warriors were out for a hike and turned their untrained, no-manners dogs loose. Or, in at least a couple of cases, the dogs _were_ leashed but pulled the leashes right out of the owners' hands when they saw the horses, and ran right up to circle, bark, and even nip at the legs. 

Of course, the owners called to the dogs - and the dogs ignored them. I recall one time when the owner even seemed to think it was "hilarious" that their dog was "attacking" such a big animal. If an owner refuses to come and collect their dog, my simple warning is to ask "Are you going to come and get your dog, or would you prefer to have my horse kick it back to you?":wink: It usually gets the point across.

If a dog is loose and no owner is in sight, and the dog tries to give chase, I will turn my horse around and run right at it, yelling at it to "geeeeet" and "go home!" IF there is a stick or tree branch handy nearby that I can grab from my horse's back, I'll go at the dog swingin' and yelling. Most dogs will back down from that kind of an approach.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

Jolly Badger said:


> I recognize the fact that many of the people who share use of trails are not horse people. They don't understand the "fight or flight" responses of horses, they don't really care _why_ horses respond to things the way they do. Other people _think_ they know all about horses because they once went on a guided trail ride while on vacation and were able to get their horse to move forward, stop, and turn.


Amen to that. I think ignorance is usually at the heart of the problem.

Another dog factor that must be considered is the "pack" mentality. I have had many dog encounters, both with my dogs and with my horses, and have seen varying behavior.

I had a similar experience to your "first day of training." Mine, however, was with about eight full grown German shepards, all off leash. When the "pack" saw our horses, they completely ignored all recalls, came across a large field and went into predator mode. The approached the horses, fanned out to try and circle us and assumed a low posture. The horses became very jumpy. I took my horse into an "aggressive" mode and started yelling at the dogs. It all worked out, but the point is that dogs in groups - even good, well behaved dogs - can act very differently than when alone. Same for off-leash vs leashed dogs. Just like many horses alone or in a small trail group feel can more threatened when approached by a pack. 

I have seen it too many times and the owners always say "he's never done that before." Many riders and non-riders alike do not fully understand horse responses, and most dog owners (at least that I have met) have no clue about dogs and the dynamics of pack mentality.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Tazmanian Devil said:


> eight full grown German shepards, all off leash. When the "pack" saw our horses, they completely ignored all recalls, came across a large field and went into predator mode. The approached the horses, fanned out to try and circle us and assumed a low posture.


I would do everything in my power to stomp each and every one of them dead right in front of their owners.

I wish Calypso were fully mine, so that I could break her to guns. Here in Ohio it's 100% legal to carry a handgun on public land and it's 100% legal to kill any dog harrassing livestock.

Best fix for an aggressive dog is a bullet.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Jolly, you had me rolling with the "I wasn't doing anything. . .I was just standing here quietly, behind a bush on the side of the trail, and when I stepped out from behind it to say 'hello' to the rider, that horse ATTACKED me!" HAAAA!

I talk to them too, tell them what to do and let them know it helps, and thanks. The lady trying to pee the other day was kind of hiding behind some tall grass, I hollered at her to a. let my horses know she was there and b. save her dignity because she was about to expose herself to me and my hub!

I get sooooooo darn frustrated at the weekend warriors with stupid untrained off leash dogs. I can't take my Aussie out most days because he is TRAINED to protect me. If their dog can't be called back, like mine can, and their dog approached he'd likely kill them if they got near. Also when camping I can't take my dog because, he 100% stays by my side, if another dog bounds over he'll take them out. Ruins my rides without him by my side, breaks his heart. But I don't want him injured because someone else didn't teach their dogs to stay. He isn't just 1 in a billion, he's well TRAINED. My coyote/shep dog just goes off and stands on ledges when other dogs or people are around. I love how she all the sudden disappears when "danger" is near, like the wild beastie she is! She even hides behind trees when we stop, ready to pounce if someone approaches. I like to think she's 1 in a million because you can't train that! LOL!


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

FlyGap said:


> But I don't want him injured because someone else didn't teach their dogs to stay. He isn't just 1 in a billion, he's well TRAINED.


Very, very true.

I had a Rottweiler who was my "trail buddy." On one occasion, I saw a loose dog approaching us from a distance. I didn't want to have to deal with a confrontation between the two dogs while I was on my horse, so I put my dog in a down-stay behind some bushes, then cantered my horse right out to meet the approaching dog and chased him away. Went back, collected my dog, and we were on our way again. 

The other dog never bothered us again after that, either.

People used to tell me they wished their dog could be that good. . .that I was "lucky" to have a dog that listened to me so well. Then they'd come up with some kind of excuse for their dogs' lack of manners (he's a mutt, he's adopted, he was abused, he's too young/old to train).

Whatever.:?

Whether it's dogs or horses, it has nothing to do with "lucking out" or "getting a 'good' one." It's up to the owner/rider to teach their animal what type of behavior is expected. It takes patience, and it takes time. . .things that many people are not willing to invest in anymore because they want "instant" results.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Jolly Badger said:


> Whether it's dogs or horses, it has nothing to do with "lucking out" or "getting a 'good' one." It's up to the owner/rider to teach their animal what type of behavior is expected. It takes patience, and it takes time. . .things that many people are not willing to invest in anymore because they want "instant" results.


I was raised around all sorts of animals and we trained most of them (even some of the cows to a certain degree). It shocked me when I moved out on my own just how many animals are not trained in even rudimentary ways. I was even more shocked people didn't have a clue how to train and lacked a desire to learn. All they would do is stand there and complain when their pet didn't listen to them.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Darrin said:


> I was raised around all sorts of animals and we trained most of them (even some of the cows to a certain degree). It shocked me when I moved out on my own just how many animals are not trained in even rudimentary ways. I was even more shocked people didn't have a clue how to train and lacked a desire to learn. All they would do is stand there and complain when their pet didn't listen to them.


Yep.

Which brings us back to the trail safety issue - just like dogs and horses and other animals need to be taught what is "acceptable" behavior, most other trail users need to be told how to behave safely around horses.

We're living in a world that is becoming farther and farther removed from "farm animals." There just aren't as many people who have any kind of experience with horses - they've grown up in the suburbs and may have been on a pony ride as a kid, or taken a few guided trail rides, but that's it. 

It's not their "fault" for not knowing, so talking down to them or being jerks to them gets us nowhere. It just reinforces the belief many non-equestrians have that "riders are snobs/jerks."

That doesn't mean there aren't still some jerks out there who will just keep doing what they're doing because they think it's "funny" to scare a horse, even after being asked to stop. :evil:


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