# Jumping... Critique? :]



## Equuestriaan (Nov 5, 2008)

You definitely have much improved since Fall 08. In the Fall picture, you appear to be jumping ahead of your horse's motion and pinching with your knee, which is causing your upper body to be dependent on the neck, and your lower leg to swing back. In the spring pictures, you look great! The only thing you might want to work on is not turning your toe out so much, but it's not a big issue.


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## gotxhorses (Jul 6, 2008)

Thanks! Yeah. My toes are turned out because my instructor is trying to get my to drop my weight into my heels because I used to have a death grip with my knees and calves. So we're trying to get me to fix my leg, then once I've got that down, I'll work more on turning my toe in without gripping as badly.


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## juju (Oct 8, 2008)

I agree with what Equestriaan said. Your position has improved and you are going with the horse's motion not jumping for it. My only thing that i would fix is shorten your reins. Its better then having too short reins however you are good enough to create contact and not interfere with the horse. Great job and keep improving.


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## gotxhorses (Jul 6, 2008)

Thanks! I'll definately work on that then. I just don't jump this horse often, so I wanted to make sure since I don't really know him that I didn't catch him in the mouth or anything.

Anyone else?
PLEASE tear the pictures apart!
I really want to improve.
:]


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## Equuestriaan (Nov 5, 2008)

> I'll work more on turning my toe in without gripping as badly.


I totally have the same issue. I turn my toes out soo much over jumps to keep my leg from swinging back!



> Anyone else?
> PLEASE tear the pictures apart!
> I really want to improve.


Don't worry xD MIEventer will probably be along, and she always gives really hepful and thorough critiques.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Two of the pictures are the same - meaning.....

The 1st and the 3rd picture - are of the take off at the base of the fence. The 2nd picture, is of the rider and horse mid air, over the center of the fence. The riders form is going to be different at take off, as to over the center. 

To the two who've already critiqued - and anyone else - I want you to take a good look at the 1st picture, and the 3rd picture and tell me what differences do you see?

You cannot look at the 2nd picture compare to the other two - totally different

I'll give a critique - I just want to see if others can see what I am.


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## juju (Oct 8, 2008)

MIEventer: Thank you for challenging me. I have been riding for sixish years and see faults but im not always a 100% positive that im right so im going to give it a more through shot. Please comment and help me where possible! Also if you could critique my post from earlier this week that would be great! 

Ok, looking closer i would see in the 
First picture: Over-jumping probably because here heel has come up and made her leg unstable. Her foot is too far into the stirrup which could also be part of the problem. Shortening the stirrup a whole might allow her heel to drop further and help her stop over jumping. She has a nice back and is looking ahead. However she has a large bend in her elbow from leaning up the neck to much. It also looks like she had a rather tight distance. 

The third picture: Her leg looks better in this picture but like Equuestriaan said her toe is turned out more then it should be. She is still jumping ahead and for the horse, she needs to wait for the horse's motion to lift her out of her saddle. I feel like there is something im missing on this picture. Any idea? 

Thank you for helping to challenge me!


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## gotxhorses (Jul 6, 2008)

MIEventer.
Just curious, but how does that help me?
It seems youre just helping them critique me.
(That's totally fine, I just want to know how I can improve!)
So, if you could tell me some things about what I'm doing right and wrong and what not, that'd be rad.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I am challenging people on this forum, who want to give critiques - to learn to see what they are seeing. To get an educated eye - I am challenging them to educate themselves - - - - so that they can help posters such as yourself who are asking for help.

~~~~~


> First picture: Over-jumping probably because here heel has come up and made her leg unstable. Her foot is too far into the stirrup which could also be part of the problem. Shortening the stirrup a whole might allow her heel to drop further and help her stop over jumping. She has a nice back and is looking ahead. However she has a large bend in her elbow from leaning up the neck to much. It also looks like she had a rather tight distance.


Good job here and you are correct - but we forgot a couple of other things here.

Lower Leg - 

The first thing that speaks out to me, is her knee pinching. When a rider has no solidity in their lower leg, they turn to their knees to lock them in their tack over a fence, which gives them that false sense of security, but when they do that - they destroy the links of solid form, and creates a domino effect of negativity.

So the first picture - 

first thing I see, loud and clear is the rider jumping ahead drastically here. Her seat is way out of her tack, and her crotch is way over the Pommel of the saddle. Her bodies weight, is alllll on her horses forehand, which is making her horses job - even that much more harder, all the while, covering his riders patooie and getting his job done the best he can.

So lets ask - why is she doing this? Lets go down from her seat and see what is the problem.........AH! Knee pinching!! So lets ask, why is she pinching her knees? Lets look down more............No security in her lower leg - as we already established.

Domino effect.

So by the rider not having their leg secured at the horses girth. By the rider being ontop of their horse instead of around *legs wrapped around girth* and because of the knee pinching and incorrect placement of the iron - the riders heels cannot anchor them - the leg flings back, and the upper body flings forward.

Also, another thing at play here - rider anticipation of the fence. What does this mean? This means that the rider is riding the fence, not their horse. They are so focused on the fence ahead - thinking about it, stressing about it, staring at it, trying to get to it instead of allowing it to come to them - which causes the rider to fling forward, out and ahead.


3rd picture:

So again, what is the first thing I look at? The riders seat. Again, I see the seat way to far out of the riders tack and her crotch over the pommel. Her Bodies weight, again - on her horses forehand making her horses job that much harder.

So again - lets look to see what is causing this? Anticipation of the fence.

Right now - she is ontop of her horse, she is not around her horse. Also, she is not sinking into her tack, where isntead she is out of her tack.

So what does sinking into your tack mean? It means going down in your bodies motion, remaining with your horses center of gravity and movement - instead of going in an up and forward motion.

See how open her knee angle is here? Her knee angle should be much more closed.

She is riding the fence, not her horse.

Ok so lets start with her lower leg. Again, her leather length is correct, her iron placement is correct. Her legs are good - but I would rather see her around her horse, not ontop.

I would put her back over x rails and small fences. Remember - it is not the height of the fence that matters, is the the quallity of the fence that does.

You know the fence is there. Your horse knows the fence is there. So why on earth are you focusing on it? Focus on what is under you, not infront of you. Ride your horses rhythm, not the fence.

Focus on rhythm, tempo, straitness. Focus on where your body parts are. Allow the fence to come to you, not you to it. Allow your horse to do his job - that is not your place. Leave him alone! 

Sit and wait for your horse to lift you out of your tack. Stop doing that job for him. He is much bigger and heavier than you are, so stop interfearing.

You are lucky to have a horse to continues over the fence for you. If you had a horse who didn't cover your tooshy, you'd of flown head over heels. Learn to secure yourself properly in your tack.

Stay centered, remain balanced and over your horses center of gravity. Sit and wait. Sink low, wrap around and close those knees - push your toosh back.

Your seat should be over the center of your saddle, and there should be very little space between your seat and your tack. 

This is where a rider should be on take off for a fence:


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## gotxhorses (Jul 6, 2008)

Okay. Well, I guess that means no more big fences for me. Cause apparently I'm a lot worse than I thought I was. Haha. I definately have a lot of work ahead of me if I want to become a decent rider. Anyone else wanna say anything?
Thanks MIEventer!


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## gotxhorses (Jul 6, 2008)

Bump. :]


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## EquitationStar (Mar 3, 2009)

I think you're really doing a lot better than in the first picture. In the first picture your foot had slipped through the stirrup a lot and that makes it close to impossible to keep your heels down and use your leg properly. That seems to have been corrected. =D Good work! 

And in the last picture posted of where a rider apparently "should" be at take off. I think that in that picture the rider is actually slightly behind the motion of the horse which is just as bad as jumping ahead. Try searching for videos and pictures of some Equitation & Medal Finals. There are usually some really good rounds and the riders ride if very nice positions. Try: ASPCA Maclay Medal, USEF Medal, USET Medal... 

Here's a good one: 
WIHS finals 2004


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

The picture posted of where the rider should be - George Morris gave a highly fabulous critique to the rider, saying nothing but excellant points about her form and where she is in the saddle.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

Jam that foot foward! LOL! I do that same thing!


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> I am challenging people on this forum, who want to give critiques - to learn to see what they are seeing. To get an educated eye - I am challenging them to educate themselves - - - - so that they can help posters such as yourself who are asking for help.
> 
> ~~~~~
> 
> ...


But this rider is behind the motion and likely to snap back on his mouth.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> The picture posted of where the rider should be - George Morris gave a highly fabulous critique to the rider, saying nothing but excellant points about her form and where she is in the saddle.


Well clearly he need his judging glasses cuz she has no release over this jump.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

gotxhorses said:


> Okay. Well, I guess that means no more big fences for me. Cause apparently I'm a lot worse than I thought I was. Haha. I definately have a lot of work ahead of me if I want to become a decent rider. Anyone else wanna say anything?
> Thanks MIEventer!


Oh your doing well!


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## HorseRiderLover (Jan 13, 2009)

Trissacar, I think MIEventer know's what she is talking about. From the picture MIEventer provided, how can you tell what her release would have been like later on in the jump? It is fine in the picture, so how can you tell it didn't stay that way? The picture is of the take-off, and you can't see how she released further over the jump. Unless you have a picture of her later release, then you don't know it would have been like. She was just staying in contact with the horse, and I doubt she jabbed the horse in the mouth. The rider in the picture is not behind motion, she is simply jumping the horse not the fence. Her reins are fine, she was staying in contact and the horse is on the bit. Please correct me if I am wrong, and no harm intended.
-HRL


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

HorseRiderLover said:


> Trissacar, I think MIEventer know's what she is talking about. From the picture MIEventer provided, how can you tell what her release would have been like later on in the jump? It is fine in the picture, so how can you tell it didn't stay that way? The picture is of the take-off, and you can't see how she released further over the jump. Unless you have a picture of her later release, then you don't know it would have been like. She was just staying in contact with the horse, and I doubt she jabbed the horse in the mouth. The rider in the picture is not behind motion, she is simply jumping the horse not the fence. Her reins are fine, she was staying in contact and the horse is on the bit. Please correct me if I am wrong, and no harm intended.
> -HRL


Because you can tell how a person is going to land from their jumping pic. Not alot of people can see that. I'm not saying its not a nice pic I'm saying that the saddle is too small,shes closing too much,her saddle has slipped back,and her leg has swung back. I think the stirrup length is affecting her riding. She needs a better release if you disagree thats your prerogative.
I'm not saying that I don't do these things I'm saying that this isn't a pic that I would look up to.
And I don't know MIeventer. Maybe shes very good. But she has no standing with me. And I didn't like this photograph to show how you are supposed to jump.

This is a photograph that I would look up to. >


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

Trissacar said:


> Because you can tell how a person is going to land from their jumping pic. Not alot of people can see that. I'm not saying its not a nice pic I'm saying that the saddle is too small,shes closing too much,her saddle has slipped back,and her leg has swung back. I think the stirrup length is affecting her riding. She needs a better release if you disagree thats your prerogative.
> I'm not saying that I don't do these things I'm saying that this isn't a pic that I would look up to.
> And I don't know MIeventer. Maybe shes very good. But she has no standing with me. And I didn't like this photograph to show how you are supposed to jump.
> 
> This is a photograph that I would look up to. >


 Also
She is behind the horse's center of gravity. And she is pull on the horse's mouth. Maybe shes doin it for a reason IDK.
A indepent observer said that this pic looks like she has better control. And also said that the pic above had a taut connection to the horse's mouth.


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## Equuestriaan (Nov 5, 2008)

Trissacar said:


> But this rider is behind the motion and likely to snap back on his mouth.


I'm sorry, but I have to agree. George Morris is no doubt known to be some sort of riding expert (I've heard the name before), but I don't think this picture really shows a textbook jumping position. It looks like the rider is struggling to get his/her weight out of the saddle. Looking at the picture, it seems as if s/he is actually slipping back in his/her saddle and is grabbing mane to keep his/herself up.

I picture this horse going over the fence and I don't see how this rider can land cleanly, safely, and balanced from this position. S/he would have to make an enormous effort to heave his/herself up and not end up pitching over the horse's shoulder or collapsing onto the horse's neck.

I may not have as much experience as George Morris or MIEventer, but I can picture the horse going over the jump and I'm just not seeing how this rider is in the proper balanced position. I'd like to see him/her not relying on his/her arms to keep his/her weight out of the saddle. I'd like to see his/her upper body backed up, not collapsed as it is in this picture. His/Her release is fine but s/he looks to be resting all of his/her upper body on the neck (the rider should be sinking his/her weight into his/her heels instead).

I think a picture like this is a much better example of rider position:










The rider is balanced and is sinking her weight in her heels. She is giving her horse room to jump with a nice auto release, but she's not struggling to get her weight out of the saddle. What I see above is a balanced rider with a true base of support and in the proper position for a safe, balanced landing.

Just my 2 cents.

And I'm sorry if this isn't going with the majority opinions here. I know I'm not some top eventer or have as much experience jumping, but I'm sharing my opinion which I believe to be accurate.


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## juju (Oct 8, 2008)

I would also a agree that she is behind the motion. I was reading this issue of Practical Horseman and was a little confused. Perhaps, because we see so many people riding ahead of the motion that it is now "better" to be a little behind. I also agree that the other two picture are much better. Perhaps MIEventer, you could explain the picture a little further. I will also go pull out the magazine and read his critique! I'd love to hear some other opinions.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

George Morris - is one of the creators of Hunter/Jumpers in North America. He also created the Crest Release and the Automatic Release.

He is in the Hall Of Fame for Equestrians a


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

George Morris is one of the greats in the Equestrian world in North America. He is one of the few who created Hunter/Jumpers, and he also created the Crest Release. 

He is in the Hall Of Fame for Equestrians and also coaches the U.S. Olympic Team. He is who he is for a reason. 

This is what GM had to say about the picture I posted. I dug up the PH magazine.

We're talking about the direct launch from the base of the fence. Horses back feet still on the ground.

*"This is quite a good rider who strikes me as a rising professional. Her leg is excellent with her heel down, ankle flexed, calf snug and stirrup correctly placed across her foot. 

Some might say that her lower leg has slipped back a bit, but I am not bothered as she is clearly both tight and effective. 

Her base of support is great, but she needs to be on guard against dropping back into her saddle too early. Her buttocks is very close to her saddle, and if she drops her seat at the apex of the jump, her horse's back is punished. 

Her posture - her back and shoulders - is correct, and her head is up."*


Educate yourself as to where this rider is. Her seat is dead center of the saddle. Not too far back, not ahead. Her seat is too low, but it is not thrusted out of the saddle. Her legs are fabulous, her heels are doing their job. She is tight, and effective.

NOT perching. NOT posing. Over her horses center of gravity, allowing her horse to do his job. She is exactly where she should be. 

She WILL NOT snap her horse mouth, because look at how solid and secure her lower legs are. That is what secures the rider. That is what keeps the rider off of their horses back, that is what keeps the horse rounded and engaged. That is what solidify's the riders form.

*~~~*

Here is another one. I really like this rider.










*"This rider has excellant position, with an ideal leg. Her heel is down with her ankle flexed, calf on her horse, toe out and the stirrup leather perpendicular to the ground. 

Her base of support is terrific with her seat tossed out of the saddle as a result of her horse's jump, rather than being an artificial or anticipatory hike forward 

Her posture too, is just right, with a soft flat black and relaxed shoulders. Her head and eyes are correct."* 

~~~~

Again, look at where her seat is. Dead center over the saddle. Not too far back, not too far forward. 

The space between her seat and the saddle is exactly how much space their should be. Solid, functional, secure. With her horses motion.

~~~~










*"This girl has a textbook perfect leg with her heel down, ankle flexed, toe out and calf on her horse at the girth. 

Her foot is correctly placed in the iron, which gives her leg suppleness as well as strength. She is secure and athletic. 

Her upper body control, however needs work. She has jumped ahead of her horse *Her buttocks are too high out of the saddle, although not in front of it* because she has not WAITED for his thrust to close her hip angle and lift her.* 

Instead, she has tried to do the work herself. Her back is roached and she is ducking to low onto her horses's neck. These form faults are habits that can be broken, and the key is to start correcting them on the flat by first adopting correct posture at the halt, and then progressing through the gaits and eventually practicing over cross rails. 

This is a talented young rider, who just needs to practice being correct. her abillity will blossom as she improves on the basics of correct form."*

*~~~~*

This picture is already OVER the fence. NOT compareable to the take off.


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

Equuestriaan said:


> I'm sorry, but I have to agree. George Morris is no doubt known to be some sort of riding expert (I've heard the name before), but I don't think this picture really shows a textbook jumping position. It looks like the rider is struggling to get his/her weight out of the saddle. Looking at the picture, it seems as if s/he is actually slipping back in his/her saddle and is grabbing mane to keep his/herself up.
> 
> I picture this horse going over the fence and I don't see how this rider can land cleanly, safely, and balanced from this position. S/he would have to make an enormous effort to heave his/herself up and not end up pitching over the horse's shoulder or collapsing onto the horse's neck.
> 
> ...


I'm sry are you talking about the 1st pic???


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

juju said:


> I would also a agree that she is behind the motion. I was reading this issue of Practical Horseman and was a little confused. Perhaps, because we see so many people riding ahead of the motion that it is now "better" to be a little behind. I also agree that the other two picture are much better. Perhaps MIEventer, you could explain the picture a little further. I will also go pull out the magazine and read his critique! I'd love to hear some other opinions.


Thank you for the support although I am not trying to make people so angry. I can almost feel the scoffing...:lol:


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> George Morris is one of the greats in the Equestrian world in North America. He is one of the few who created Hunter/Jumpers, and he also created the Crest Release.
> 
> He is in the Hall Of Fame for Equestrians and also coaches the U.S. Olympic Team. He is who he is for a reason.
> 
> ...


I remember the second pic!
Well you want takeoff here you go pick picky lol jk


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> George Morris - is one of the creators of Hunter/Jumpers in North America. He also created the Crest Release and the Automatic Release.
> 
> He is in the Hall Of Fame for Equestrians a


Yes but I know for a fact he is not right all the time.







(Shhhh) 
But hes right on most points. But I prefer the Maddens methodology to his. 
But I'm a little bias cuz I know them and my trainer was trained by them.
Lol!


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## anrz (Dec 21, 2008)

I agree with what everyone else has said about the picture that MIEventer posted (the first one), and in GM's critique, he says that she needs to be on guard against falling back into the saddle early as her buttocks are very close to the saddle. I think that the picture that Equestriaan posted is much better, as well as the second picture that MIEventer posted.


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## gotxhorses (Jul 6, 2008)

I love that this entire post is no longer about me. Haha.
Way to get off topic.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

gotxhorses, I think you were jumping a really big jump in first photo, how high was it? looks like the other two were considerably smaller. I think you can work on crossrails and still jump bigger ones as well within reason at this point. Your position has improved a lot. I am guessing you are working with a trainer? I would listen to what they say. I think there is already some great advice on here. I also think the pics and discussion are things that you (and me) can learn from. However I do agree your thread sort of got highjacked ))


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## gotxhorses (Jul 6, 2008)

Yeah, the first jump was about 3'3". And I know. I was just stating how it got off topic.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I still stand by my post


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## gotxhorses (Jul 6, 2008)

I know. I know all of my issues and I agree with everyone. I just saw the post bumped up and was like what happend here? haha. No one is critiquing me anymore. They're on a new topic within a topic.


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