# VENT about sharing trails!



## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

This is going to be a novel, so bear with me!

Okay, so my barn is right by a huge park, very wooded and remote area. It's not busy at all (ESPECIALLY during these last several months). It has a LOT of trails through it, and there are different 'sections' to the trails. (Overall about 30 miles divided up).
The barn is right by a section that doesn't specifically allow for horses, but since it's right by the barn the barn owner talked to the parks managers and they allowed it as long as we didn't ride when it was muddy and pushed poo to the side. Occasionally we'd see people on the trails but everybody is very nice and waves or smiles.

So everything is nice and dandy, there is even a trail head literally 30 feet from our barn. Until... one day I came out during the morning when it was literally DEAD out in the park (during the work days, it's empty) Like I normally do, I even saw the parking lots to the trail and they were completely empty. So when we were going down this wide road (NEXT to the trails, but not a part of the trails) we started cantering for about.... 10 strides. When I see a man and two dogs on the side, so I walked and the man waved (or at least that it looked like to me) so we continued on.

Later that day I hear from the BO we can't go on trails for a while because the man claimed I was galloping out of control and drove him off the trail (What??? I wasn't even on the trail!)

Apparently the man has a history of complaining about the horses so it wasn't a huge deal and we just waited a few weeks before going back on. Well.. me and my friend where on the trail headed by the parking lot when we see a man approaching us (can't see who at this angle) we're at a narrower trail so out of courtesy we move off and onto the road. As we approach it is the man mentioned above, he wasn't even going down the trail just getting into his car. WELL the man starts YELLING at us because "Horses aren't supposed to go down these trails!!!" and a bunch of other angry remarks. So my friend yells back, "We aren't even on the trail!" (because technically we WERE on the road when he started yelling) and we continue on our way even though he has ticked both of us off. To no surprise he complained again, and now we just can't go on that trail. NOW we have the very small (1 mile) all around trail by the barn across the street, or we have to ride a little less than 2 miles down a gravel road (my horse has sensitive feet) and cross a busy-ish street (had to spend MONTHS training my dog to be prepared for this while I was on horseback) to the horse trails.

Oh well... all that other stuff was unfortunate, and they're working on putting a horse trail in by the barn this year so that's not so bad. Today was BEAUTIFUL so I decided to make the trip to the horse trails. I HATE riding on gravel, so we were hoping around avoiding it. WELL we get to the HORSES ONLY trail (emphasis on HORSES only) and start riding down it. There was a really nice stretch for cantering, so of course I took it and cantered. I started slowing around the corner (but hey it's a horse only tail, no other barns around and no horse trailers in the parking lot there shouldn't be a lot to look out for right?) and the man mentioned before is RIGHT in the middle with his two dogs!! 

If you know my dog at all, you know when she starts running it's hard for her to stop, so she tried stopping quickly but still got within leash length of his dogs. They LUNGED at her, growling and snapping and one even took her down for a second. Luckily my dog doesn't have one aggressive bone in her body, and just backed up because they were leashed and couldn't get to her and came back to me. (Note it all happened very quickly or I would have gotten involved.. I've been involved with dog fights before and they are NOT pretty ALSO note I did NOT come galloping around the corner, and had my horse completely under control and we stopped with ease.. no crazy RUNNING AROUND CORNER OMG THERES A GUY LETS STOP SUPER QUICKLY AND CRAZILY!).

I was LIVID. I said nothing, because my parents raised me if you have nothing nice to say better not say anything at all. I WANTED to start telling him off that this is a HORSES only trail, and in retrospect I wish I said something but I was in shock that the only person I've ran into on the horse trails was the SAME guy who was so anal about the other trails!!

So we continued forward, my dog was SUPER obedient today which I was so happy for (somedays she can be feeling her oats and like to run around a little bit more than necessary) and she followed behind my horse at a safe distance and ignored the dogs as we passed. The man said something like, "You okay there?" to my dog but I was still too PO to respond to him.

I still am in shock. I would have called the park area already to complain like he has to us so many times, BUT I don't want to stoop to his level (seriously I don't care who's on the trails) and my dog was off leash which they have a sign posted for (even though 99% of people who go through that park on horses or not have their dogs leashless).

I'm still in shock and SO mad. I can't believe the nerve of this guy who gets his panties in a bunch so easily feels like he's exempt from the rules! :evil:

OK rant over. Not that big of a deal but seriously ticked me off.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

You did the right thing, it's a no win situation to get into a ****ing contest with people like that.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

Darrin said:


> You did the right thing, it's a no win situation to get into a ****ing contest with people like that.


Thanks for reading all that. And it's good to hear I did the right thing, my friend thinks I should have told him off (they weren't there), but at the time I thought it would do more harm than good.

Normally I don't even waste time worrying about people like that, but the fact he went onto our trails after making such a hussy over "his" trails! Ugh. The look on his face was priceless though. He knew he was caught. I just hope this means he'll stop being such a tyrant about the other trails.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

He won't and be ready for a complaint about your dog being off leash. Of course, he'll either neglect to mention which trail he was on or say it was a different one. Some people you just can't win with.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I don't think your friend is correct as you have no basis to tell him off. You are aware that it is a part of the trail that you should not be on, and that's why you don't ride it for a while when the heat is on. 

Maybe he is crazy, or maybe he has past bad experiences with horses. Either way, if you shouldn't be on that trail, he is correct and you are wrong.


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## robohog (Nov 24, 2011)

Well if i understand this right, It is a State park that allows horses. But it is ran by the city which does not allow horses. i hear Local Cops write tickets to horse riders. Cinnys Whinny has told me about this rude type person. When she first told me about it i was ready to go out there and have a nice talk with that guy.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Are you sure the "horses only " trail disallowed pedestrians? I mean, are you sure he was in the wrong to be on the horse's trail? Our park allows horses and pedestrians, but no bikes or motorized vehicles.

I have my own beef with off leash dogs and runners. The runner in our park go in super quiet sneakers, and have earbuds in their ears, so they don't hear us, so they just come running around corners, never even thinking what might be around there. And when they have an off lease dog, well, it's meant a torn muscle for me so, I am a bit of a Nazi when I encounter off leash dogs.

Our area is pretty urban, so they really should know the drill by now.

I do hope you can maybe talk the park into granting you a "passage" trail to your horse area, and you would have to promise to walk only on that trail.

HOwever, I do commend your restraint with the man. I would have been a shrieking banshee.


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

Some people can be such jerks....total asinine with you but geez...get their panties in a bunch if they even perceive it is going to be returned. 

It helps to know the rules and what is allowed. If pedestrians are not allowed on the trails report him. I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about reporting him IF pedi's are not allowed on the trails. :twisted: After all...rules ARE rules. :wink:

As for getting to the horse trails....try to find out who is in charge of routes and see if an agreement can be reached on easy access to the horses trails can be achieved. Make sure to scrupulously follow the rules. 

ATV's are not allowed on the trails at our local park. A kid was running his ATV through there a few weeks ago and my cousin's horse and Biscuit were a little unnerved by it. They could both hear it. We went out of the woods for lunch and I heard them coming down the trial. I hopped up and trotted into the woods and here he comes down the trail. I put my hand up for him to stop and told him politely that he would be ticketed if the police caught him in the park. He apologized and left. That was the end of it. (we hope - they really tear up the trails!) 

Unfortunately, the park is a know hang out for men trolling for ahem....more of the same shall we say....and a number of arrests have been made. There were two men walked into the woods just ahead of my cousin and I the other day...ok...ewwwwww....we went out of the woods. So we are always on the look out for nefarious behavior from the freak boys. They are always driving in the park - single guy in the car going round and round. :shock:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Yikes! Sorry that happened to you! I'd be very grumpy if I wasn't allowed on certain trails. 

I agree, bad idea to yell at the guy. You can be angry but just huff it out and keep on doing what you love. 

Some people just don't understand how their poor actions and choices affect others in regards to having their dog not on a leash [huge GRRRR] or putting both earbuds in and not paying attention to what is going on and maybe even spooking the horse. 

Other people just want to cause trouble.. but either way you did a very good thing IMOP by not saying a word to him. Your poor dog though.. I'm glad it wasn't serious.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

Okay I think I must have been confusing when I wrote that, I'll try to clear it up!



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> He won't and be ready for a complaint about your dog being off leash. Of course, he'll either neglect to mention which trail he was on or say it was a different one. Some people you just can't win with.


Too true, but I don't THINK he can complain because I was on the horses only, and if my barn owners gets a call I'll explain it all.



AlexS said:


> I don't think your friend is correct as you have no basis to tell him off. You are aware that it is a part of the trail that you should not be on, and that's why you don't ride it for a while when the heat is on.
> 
> Maybe he is crazy, or maybe he has past bad experiences with horses. Either way, if you shouldn't be on that trail, he is correct and you are wrong.


I WAS supposed to be on that trail, and went a great deal out of my way to be on the horses ONLY trail.



robohog said:


> Well if i understand this right, It is a State park that allows horses. But it is ran by the city which does not allow horses. i hear Local Cops write tickets to horse riders. Cinnys Whinny has told me about this rude type person. When she first told me about it i was ready to go out there and have a nice talk with that guy.


I never heard that.... are you sure? It's WAY across from the street the barn is on, you have to cross the major road. People also trailer there horses out there on regular occasions. But I agree he is a piece of work, and I would love for you to 



tinyliny said:


> Are you sure the "horses only " trail disallowed pedestrians? I mean, are you sure he was in the wrong to be on the horse's trail? Our park allows horses and pedestrians, but no bikes or motorized vehicles.
> 
> I have my own beef with off leash dogs and runners. The runner in our park go in super quiet sneakers, and have earbuds in their ears, so they don't hear us, so they just come running around corners, never even thinking what might be around there. And when they have an off lease dog, well, it's meant a torn muscle for me so, I am a bit of a Nazi when I encounter off leash dogs.
> 
> ...


Yes it was a horse only trail, at the trail head they have little signs. It said no pedestrians, no bikes, only horses. The other trail in the area is only bikes, no horses and no pedestrians. So there was no way he was on a legal trail for him.

I dislike off leash dogs in general too, once there was a lady who sounds like you describe but with a terrible mean dog she let off leash in a VERY crowded park! She would go running while her dog would run up to other dogs leashed and try to start fights. AND this man did have his dogs 'leashed' but I use that term loosely as I had more control of my dog than he did his, and he had one of those 10 ft. flexi leashes, so even though my dog didn't come RIGHT up to them the dogs were able to come right up to her.

Unfortunately the way they made the park the only ways are to go down a gravel road or right next to a highway. With both horse and dog in tow I decided to go the safer route. 



QOS said:


> Some people can be such jerks....total asinine with you but geez...get their panties in a bunch if they even perceive it is going to be returned.
> 
> It helps to know the rules and what is allowed. If pedestrians are not allowed on the trails report him. I wouldn't feel the least bit bad about reporting him IF pedi's are not allowed on the trails. :twisted: After all...rules ARE rules. :wink:
> 
> ...


I know for a fact there aren't supposed to be pedestrians down there. It's really tempting to report him... but like others said he would probably just bring up my off leash dog (seriously how are you supposed to have a leash while on a horse? haha!)
I've seen many many creepy people in the park too unfortunately! Mainly though up on the pedestrian routes.



Skyseternalangel said:


> Yikes! Sorry that happened to you! I'd be very grumpy if I wasn't allowed on certain trails.
> 
> I agree, bad idea to yell at the guy. You can be angry but just huff it out and keep on doing what you love.
> 
> ...


Haha my dog was the one off leash 

BUT she had her e-collar on which for her works even better than a leash, and she was being very mindful. (Came when I called and heeled next to the horse while we walked off)

I think he just likes being 'ruler of the trails' it's just so... idk maddening? Before he came along pedestrians and bikes as well as horses got along in the pedestrians only area by the barn, it wasn't 'technically' allowed but normally every one who goes on the trails is pretty easy going. We had been using those trails for almost a year before this man showed up.

I just couldn't believe that even when I followed the rules and went all the way up to the horse trails I couldn't escape this man!


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Have you guys thought about volunteering at the park to help build and maintain trails? We live out in THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE but ATV's and hikers rule on the trails. One is the Ozark Highland's Trail which is for peds only. It does wind through many ATV trails and general old logging roads so it is super hard to navigate which part is what. Thankfully we have worked REALLY hard with the USFS repairing ATV trails and erosion, helped to monitor and close off non-ATV trails, and are working to extend our horse trails. They are pretty strapped for cash and always take a helping hand. We have yet to be refused any requests and have some great projects in the works!! All the officials have our visitors say we are staying at so n so's and they get a pass if they are re-routing trails, driving on the highway, and many etc's.

Go for the bonus points with the officials and just see how far you get! It's funny when you put the extra effort in, "annoying gnats" seem to get swatted away!!!


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

FlyGap said:


> Have you guys thought about volunteering at the park to help build and maintain trails? We live out in THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE but ATV's and hikers rule on the trails. One is the Ozark Highland's Trail which is for peds only. It does wind through many ATV trails and general old logging roads so it is super hard to navigate which part is what. Thankfully we have worked REALLY hard with the USFS repairing ATV trails and erosion, helped to monitor and close off non-ATV trails, and are working to extend our horse trails. They are pretty strapped for cash and always take a helping hand. We have yet to be refused any requests and have some great projects in the works!! All the officials have our visitors say we are staying at so n so's and they get a pass if they are re-routing trails, driving on the highway, and many etc's.
> 
> Go for the bonus points with the officials and just see how far you get! It's funny when you put the extra effort in, "annoying gnats" seem to get swatted away!!!


I really like hearing that  I've thought about this before, and am in the process of getting my 4-H club to 'adopt' the trails next to the barn care wise. It's a big enough club so every person would only have to go a couple times a month at most. One of the boarders is also on the park committee (lucky us!) and is working really hard to let us have a trail next to the barn.

I actually like the horses only trail better, but unfortunately I hate riding my horse on gravel roads (he has very sensitive feet which I'm working on toughening up but it's going to take time)


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Have you thought of using Easy Boots or something to help with the gravel road? My QH gelding has to wear them if it's rocky because he's sinsitive too.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

gigem88 said:


> Have you thought of using Easy Boots or something to help with the gravel road? My QH gelding has to wear them if it's rocky because he's sinsitive too.


I actually have thought about using those! But they are very overpriced locally, and I'm worried about sizing them. How well do they work for you? Do you have to replace them often/do they break after lots of use?

I think for the summer if I don't shoe him I'm going the easy boot way for sure! Hopefully it starts snowing soon (NEVER thought I'd say that..) because that's a little easier on his feet as long as it's not icy!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

OuttatheBlue said:


> Haha my dog was the one off leash
> 
> BUT she had her e-collar on which for her works even better than a leash, and she was being very mindful. (Came when I called and heeled next to the horse while we walked off)
> 
> ...



Yes I know, but she sounds like she behaves which I nor my horse welcome with open arms! 

Yeah that isn't cool... can't you guys create and sign a petition to get trail access back? Unless they specifically said walk only, then you shouldn't have gotten into trouble, because you did stop and you did yield.

Also... idk about you, but anyone waving or any other kind of hand motion startles my horse.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

The 4H sounds great, also check your local university. Maybe someone in your group has a kid or knows one involved in agriculture/environmental studies/???. We got a bunch of students from the University of Arkansas to help out two weekends for extra credit. Those guys were hauling straw bales and railroad ties two miles down a ped/horse trail that was washing out due to the ATV's. They ROCKED!

Kuddos on not charging that guy, I wouldn't have but the thought would have crossed my mind!


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Yes I know, but she sounds like she behaves which I nor my horse welcome with open arms!
> 
> Yeah that isn't cool... can't you guys create and sign a petition to get trail access back? Unless they specifically said walk only, then you shouldn't have gotten into trouble, because you did stop and you did yield.
> 
> Also... idk about you, but anyone waving or any other kind of hand motion startles my horse.


Okay thanks! She really was behaving EXCELLENTLY. Which people who know my dog from a few months ago wouldn't believe, but since the whole incident a couple months ago I decided I didn't want to give them ANY reason to get mad at us and began training like heck with that furry energizer bunny. (We're still working on her AT the barn... but on trail rides she is being a trooper! Otherwise I absolutely positively wouldn't have even tried crossing the busy road, I would not let my dog be roadkill :? )

I did stop and yield, I make it a habit not to run around corners. There are parts of the trail that say SLOW because they are shared by bikers, but this was not one of them and was the PERFECT cantering spot just perfect. We walk/trotted the rest of the trail though. I'll ask my friend about the petition though, we may not have enough riders to support it  (small barn)

Luckily my horse is used to all type of shenanigans and wasn't fazed... BUT that coke can on the side of the road was the scariest thing EVER. Horses, eh? :wink: 



FlyGap said:


> The 4H sounds great, also check your local university. Maybe someone in your group has a kid or knows one involved in agriculture/environmental studies/???. We got a bunch of students from the University of Arkansas to help out two weekends for extra credit. Those guys were hauling straw bales and railroad ties two miles down a ped/horse trail that was washing out due to the ATV's. They ROCKED!
> 
> Kuddos on not charging that guy, I wouldn't have but the thought would have crossed my mind!


I think that's a great idea! I actually know people in agriculture in college, so I'll ask them if they know anyone or if they'd be willing to help out.

It ran through my head once or twice... I tried looking as PO as possible though. I was more surprised than anything! It was like, "Oh here's a hiker... Wait is that the man that got all in a ruckus about the trails earlier? OH MY IT'S HIM" :shock: and the rest followed haha.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

OuttatheBlue said:


> Okay thanks! She really was behaving EXCELLENTLY. Which people who know my dog from a few months ago wouldn't believe, but since the whole incident a couple months ago I decided I didn't want to give them ANY reason to get mad at us and began training like heck with that furry energizer bunny. (We're still working on her AT the barn... but on trail rides she is being a trooper! Otherwise I absolutely positively wouldn't have even tried crossing the busy road, I would not let my dog be roadkill :? )
> 
> I did stop and yield, I make it a habit not to run around corners. There are parts of the trail that say SLOW because they are shared by bikers, but this was not one of them and was the PERFECT cantering spot just perfect. We walk/trotted the rest of the trail though. I'll ask my friend about the petition though, we may not have enough riders to support it  (small barn)
> 
> Luckily my horse is used to all type of shenanigans and wasn't fazed... BUT that coke can on the side of the road was the scariest thing EVER. Horses, eh? :wink:


Gotta love them..  and she sounds like a lot of fun! Glad she behaves  

Well better some than none!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If I ran across him, I would have to ask him what he was thinking. Sounds like a jerk, but maybe there is some way to win him over so that he quits hating horses. Maybe if he realized how much better horses are than 4-wheelers he would get to be nicer.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

Celeste said:


> If I ran across him, I would have to ask him what he was thinking. Sounds like a jerk, but maybe there is some way to win him over so that he quits hating horses. Maybe if he realized how much better horses are than 4-wheelers he would get to be nicer.


He is. I never have meet anyone as cranky as him! The thing is, people go around that section of the park with leashless dogs and bikes (both of which aren't technically allowed) but there have never been any problems! We all shared the trail just fine and I NEVER had anyone who got upset seeing someone who 'wasn't supposed to be there'.

Some people...


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

I would agree that the better course of action was to avoid an argument. You can't win with people like this.

You _could_ report him for violation the rules, but you have managed to dig a hole for yourself.

I could nitpick about the original encounter. You were on a mixed use trail and came running up on a pedestrian. I know plenty of people like him, but that doesn't count when he complains. But let's let that one pass.

Now that you have been told to stay off that trail, you simply wait a little bit and go right back on. In the second encounter he was, unfortunately, 100% right. If he calls to complain, you are now a "confirmed troublemaker" to the authorities. If they take him seriously enough, you also risk shutting down additional trails or trail access.

Fast forward to your third encounter. Sure, he didn't belong on that trail. But neither did your _off-leash_ dog! You were breaking the rules again! Whether you realize it or not, that could have been a big problem. Even though you believe your dog to be very docile, the dynamic of off-leash and leashed dogs together can lead to problems.

If you complain about this guy and it comes out that you had a dog off-leash, it will be turned around on you and added to your already established "troublemaker" history. Your complaint will only bolster this guys credibility.

Best to let it go and/or just follow all the rules in the future.

Please don't take this the wrong way. I am not one for staying on the approved path or following what all the signs say. I usually see a "no horses" sign as an invitation to ride. But I also know that when I am doing something even remotely outside the rules, I pretty much give up my right to complain about people who have a problem with that or my ability to do much about those other people.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

Before I reply to your post I thought I would let you all know I talked to the BO who talked to the Park Comittee, this guy is a known nuisance and its turned out he actually has some mental health problems so it was best and will be best to ignore him.

For the last poster (on my phone ready to go to bed, can't see who it was) don't think I was complaining about past incidents! I was juts giving history. It was annoying, but I understand which is why I went to the trouble of going to the horse only trails. Also I'm not sure where you got that I ran up on him. I was on a different trail entirely for that instance.
As for off leash dogs, even pedestrians go with off leash dogs around here. I have an E-collar 'just in case' as well that works on her better than a leash. Just today (without use of E-collar) we were able to safely pass a house with two off leash dogs barking at us, pass two dogs who were off leash (the owners had to leash them because they freaked when they saw the horses... On the horse only trail) without looking back.
I would also like to add the member of the Park comittee who is at my barn rides the park with two off leash dogs. The rules here aren't strict at all, we're more flexible than others and bikes and horses have done fine on the 'pedestrian' only trail for a couple years that I know of until this guy came along.

Hope this makes sense  I'm off to bed, have to wake up way to early for work!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

And as for the troublemaker part, this isn't just me, its all the trail riders at the barn. After incident 1 the park comittee recomended a break as they hoped the man wouldn't keep coming as the weather got colder.

He's not just out for me haha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

Believe me, I am with you 100%. Been there myself more than once. It's just that you need to look at it from a third party viewpoint.

First encounter you wrote you were cantering for 10 strides when you saw him on the side. 10ft away, 100ft away it doesn't matter. He reported it how _he_ saw it (or wanted to see it). That's how the complaint was issued and by admitting you were running, you are effectively confirming his story.

On dogs off leash... two wrongs don't make a right. You stated that there is a sign about no off-leash dogs and you admit you know it isn't allowed. The lack of enforcement isn't a valid defense when something gets reported or someone gets hurt.

Let's just say his leashed dog was injured in the encounter. Let's say he was injured when he stepped back and fell because your "off-leash dog was running towards him." (go ahead, _prove_ it didn't happen that way). If it ended up in court or even just an insurance claim - you would be judged "at fault" because you had you dog off leash. Your dog may be well trained and the electronic collar may work perfectly... doesn't matter. You were still breaking the rules. Just saying that you should be careful of throwing stones when living in a glass house.

I didn't mean to call you a troublemaker. My point is that this is how you may end up being labeled because of this nut, or people like him.

Look at it from a non-local, independent viewpoint (i.e. police or judge looking at the facts you presented).

1. You rode in an area you were told was off-limits (2nd encounter)
2. You defied the posted off-leash rule
3. In all three encounters you scared some old guy who you believe to have "issues." Too much for coincidence.

In the wrong hands, it could be made to look like you are a rebellious person who doesn't like authority and is stalking this guy to harass him (or worse)!

Again, I am simply showing how this could all read to the wrong person.

Smart money says keep an eye out for him and avoid any encounter.

Another thing to keep in mind is that being right isn't always what you think it is. We have "horse only" trails around here. Joggers, bikers and loose dogs are on the trail and the park knows it but does nothing. I would bet if someone got hurt, it would end up with the horse loosing access to those trails because we represent a greater liability than those other groups. I generally solve my trail problems myself or, when I cannot, learn to work around them. Involving park management often leads to more rules for horses and stricter enforcement of those rules. In other words, when I am right they change the rules to make me wrong.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

Tazmanian Devil said:


> Believe me, I am with you 100%. Been there myself more than once. It's just that you need to look at it from a third party viewpoint.
> First encounter you wrote you were cantering for 10 strides when you saw him on the side. 10ft away, 100ft away it doesn't matter. He reported it how _he_ saw it (or wanted to see it). That's how the complaint was issued and by admitting you were running, you are effectively confirming his story.
> *I'm going the lazy way of replying, hope you don't mind. I'm not arguing that 'technically' it sounds bad, depending on how it's worded it could make me sound like a despicable person running rampant on the trail with her free running dog! This instance however, I've been told by the BO I wasn't even in the park (I was on a road next to the trails) and he said he couldn't complain about that I guess.*
> On dogs off leash... two wrongs don't make a right. You stated that there is a sign about no off-leash dogs and you admit you know it isn't allowed. The lack of enforcement isn't a valid defense when something gets reported or someone gets hurt.
> ...


IMO Bikes + Horses on a trail almost always ends badly. Fortunately at this horse trail, we have a separate bike trail. And in no way did I want to ever involve Park Management! I am a big believer in working it out among yourselves.

Don't think I'm arguing with you! Or even trying to defend myself from the points you made, they are perfectly logical and possible. I agree with all of what you said, and I have been and plan on keeping a good reputation with the parks and those who use them (other than this guy.. who luckily they say is a 'fair weather' hiker and should disappear as soon as it gets really chilly out)


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

OuttatheBlue, 

You have zero ground to stand on if you blow off the rules that don't fit your idea of what's easy/convenient/acceptable.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

mildot said:


> OuttatheBlue,
> 
> You have zero ground to stand on if you blow off the rules that don't fit your idea of what's easy/convenient/acceptable.


.... I don't blow off the rules, I have been going all the way to the horses only trail to abide by the rules. If this is about an off-leash dog, I understand the concern, really, but it's a different situation than most of you are thinking. (Though maybe riders trail riding with dogs isn't as popular in other states?)

This was just a rant about a double standard man, nothing more. I honestly, like everyone else who uses the trails, don't care who's on what trail (but since I have a horse I will go only on that trail) but I found it ironic that this man who has a high standard for the trail users, doesn't even hold himself up to it. Obviously confrontation was not the right option nor complaining to the park, so I just wanted to vent a little. I didn't want or plan on having to defend myself about something unrelated.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

OuttatheBlue said:


> .... I don't blow off the rules, I have been going all the way to the horses only trail to abide by the rules. If this is about an off-leash dog, I understand the concern, really, but it's a different situation than most of you are thinking. (Though maybe riders trail riding with dogs isn't as popular in other states?)


In your mind, off leash dogs are OK because everyone blows off the rules and there have been no problems.

That doesn't change the fact that you, and everyone else with off leash dogs in areas where they are not allowed, are ignoring the rules.

Do whatever you want, but you should not be surprised that several have called you out on this issue.

If I was riding along on a track where dogs shouldn't be and I saw you with yours, I'd turn you in.

Nuff said. I'm outta here.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I think Robo was confusing the trails you were on too. I heard that the trail right next to the stable was state owned but city runs it and state doesn't care if we are there but city says no because they supposedly maintain it, but we all know they only really maintain the main road and the summer day camp areas, and do nothing about the trails, bridges, and equipment that need repair. I've never been on the horse only trails, I'm scared to take Cin down first because I'm afraid we will get hit by a car because the people drive so crazy on that road. 

BTW, this is from my cell so please ignore auto corrections weirdness


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## robohog (Nov 24, 2011)

Outatheblue, you will find on here that when one person says something everyone else seems to grow a pair and start chanting the same stuff. No one on this forum besides you, Cinny and i have ever been to that park. 

Just so you all know Outoftheblue is not a trouble maker. She is a young leader in our community and in the horse community. 

Everyone here knows i dont know crap about horses but i do know people. There are some on this forum, in our barn and at shows that have no respect for the horsemanship, traditions or etiquette. Fortunately for all of you, Outoftheblue posses all of these qualities. Out

Ps. Cinnys Whinny has that stuff too! I dont. Out for real this time.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

OuttatheBlue isn't blowing off the rules. Sometimes it's hard to understand the way our trails are here, if you don't actually live in our area. First off we are talking about a HUGE park in our area called Wilderness park and it is pretty much a wilderness park. Think over growth of trees, bushes, etc, with a small trail in most places. Now there are parts of the park set off that are pedestrian only. However bicycles seem to think they are allowed there too. One of these trails is butt up against our stable. We have an understanding with the stable that so long as we don't tear up the trails when it's muddy or leave poo poo for people to step in when they jog, we can go there. We just must be discreet and polite. 

Then there are multi use trails that anybody can use, Pedestrian, horse, dog, bike, doesn't matter. One is down the road a little bit from the stable and we are actually in the process of "adopting" the trail which means our stable will maintain it and the trails and we get to ride it. 

And then there are horse only trails, which are basically use at your own risk if you are a pedestrian or bicyclist. There is also an "understanding" that most people ride with their unleashed dogs and this is fine so long as your dog is well trained, polite and not aggressive (just like taking them to the leashless park).

There are dirt/gravel roads that link the trail heads. Each trail head has a parking lot, etc. In Nebraska it is legal to have a horse on any of these roads.

The man in question is harassing people for riding on the public road, in the parking lots, in the horse trail, and on the multi use trails etc. This is what OuttatheBlue is venting about. She does follow the rules, I ride with her on occasion and she rides Cinny once in a while too. This man just thinks that every trail is off limits to the horses and causes trouble for all of us and it'a not fair. 

I think if he wants to not be around the horses, he should use the pedestrian only trail. But he can't complain if we are on the gravel road, the multi purpose trail or riding with our leashless dogs in the area allotted to us by the city!


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

mildot said:


> In your mind, off leash dogs are OK because everyone blows off the rules and there have been no problems.
> 
> That doesn't change the fact that you, and everyone else with off leash dogs in areas where they are not allowed, are ignoring the rules.
> 
> ...


I don't know where you got that several people have called me out on a leashless dog... if you read the post it was about the HORSES not the dogs. The post doesn't revolve around the dogs at all, except for the fact she was there and the dogs are allowed. 
I didn't even think someone would get all worked up over a minor detail like that.



robohog said:


> Outatheblue, you will find on here that when one person says something everyone else seems to grow a pair and start chanting the same stuff. No one on this forum besides you, Cinny and i have ever been to that park.
> 
> Just so you all know Outoftheblue is not a trouble maker. She is a young leader in our community and in the horse community.
> 
> ...


Thank you Rob! I honestly didn't want to do anything else but vent about double standards... didn't expect to create an argument about leashless dogs.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> OuttatheBlue isn't blowing off the rules. Sometimes it's hard to understand the way our trails are here, if you don't actually live in our area. First off we are talking about a HUGE park in our area called Wilderness park and it is pretty much a wilderness park. Think over growth of trees, bushes, etc, with a small trail in most places. Now there are parts of the park set off that are pedestrian only. However bicycles seem to think they are allowed there too. One of these trails is butt up against our stable. We have an understanding with the stable that so long as we don't tear up the trails when it's muddy or leave poo poo for people to step in when they jog, we can go there. We just must be discreet and polite.
> 
> Then there are multi use trails that anybody can use, Pedestrian, horse, dog, bike, doesn't matter. One is down the road a little bit from the stable and we are actually in the process of "adopting" the trail which means our stable will maintain it and the trails and we get to ride it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying! Sometimes I'm bad at being descriptive. If you ever want to venture out to the horse only trail sometime, let me know! I found a short cut (well.... really it's a longer way) that bypasses most of the swively part of the road, and then there's a big enough shoulder on the road to ride without worry of the cars. The trails are really pretty, and there's even a 'creek' (dried up right now) that they have to cross! And it goes on for ever (as far as I know :wink: I've never reached the end!) last time we went 9 miles and there was still a long ways to go! And you should see Tilly on the trail now, she has improved 900% from her puppy days


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

@robohog

Didn't realize I had stumbled into a group who know each other and obviously know more about the actual situation than was made clear in the original post. When you post in a public forum, you should be prepared for different viewpoints and know that the responses will be based on the information given. I think it more than likely that the majority of people who read these forums don't know the other posters.

That said, the OP put her story out there and different people commented. As far as I can see, one person agreed with at least some of my points. Hardly "everyone else." Certainly no one has attacked or maligned the OP as might be inferred from your post.

The OP seemed to understand where I was coming from. I made it clear I was not calling her a "troublemaker" or making any negative personal commentary. Her reply was clear that we were not "arguing" and she could see how her actions might be used against her by others. I think you are misinterpreting what I, and others, are writing.

OP wrote that the at time of the second encounter she was riding on a trail which was designated off-limits to horses. (Although she waited for the heat to cool down). At time of the third encounter she was riding with an off-leash dog in an area clearly prohibiting off-leash dogs. If I misunderstood something, please correct me.

It is no skin off my back what she does. I understand why she does it, and have no problem with it. I have and will continue to break similar rules. However, it is also somewhat hypocritical to "rant" about others breaking the rules when you are doing the same thing.

Your write "There are some on this forum, in our barn and at shows that have no respect for the horsemanship, traditions or etiquette." Well, how is that any different from ignoring rules you do not like and complaining about others who do exactly the same? Why is it "OK" for "everyone" to defy the off-leash dog rule, but this other guy has to abide by the "no pedestrians" rule?

Breaking rules is exactly how "a young leader in our community and in the horse community" gets in trouble and loses that status. A true leader leads by example - not by breaking rules because "everyone else does it." This goes double for the park commission person who was also mentioned rides with an off-leash dog. Around here, she could lose her job for that. You want to ride with an off-leash dog, be a real leader and get the rule changed.

Go on a highway with a speed limit of 55. Drive 65. Take your speeding ticket to the judge and tell him you were going 65 because "so was everyone else." I will bet you the cost of the speeding ticket that the verdict is "guilty."

There are reasons for rules - even if the reasons stink or we don't like them. 999 times out of 1000 it will not be a problem. Its that 1 other time that gets you. If someone gets hurt (including yourself or your dog) and you were breaking the rules it will be your fault and might even be denied as an insurance claim. Even if you simply want to complain about someone else, your avenues are limited because you are also a guilty party.

I ride many trails where some non-riders would love to see horses banned. I am on the OPs side here - I know people like this guy who doesn't want to see horses. These people just look for reasons to complain. When you break *ANY* rule, that gives them reason to pick up the phone and rat you out. After enough complaints, the trails get closed. 

Even if the "local" officials are in your corner, people like this don't give up. They will take pictures, write letters, document incidents and raise the heat until they get someone to listen. Some will even "create" situations just to ruin your day.

And again to Outatheblue... none of this is meant as any type of personal attack or commentary on you.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

> OP wrote that the at time of the second encounter she was riding on a trail which was designated off-limits to horses. (Although she waited for the heat to cool down). At time of the third encounter she was riding with an off-leash dog in an area clearly prohibiting off-leash dogs. If I misunderstood something, please correct me.
> 
> It is no skin off my back what she does. I understand why she does it, and have no problem with it. I have and will continue to break similar rules. However, it is also somewhat hypocritical to "rant" about others breaking the rules when you are doing the same thing.


I just think I will skip rants in the future, I don't think I'm being clear enough. I had no problem with your post, yours was matter of fact technical stuff, which is ok to see from the perspective of a lawyer (not saying you are but you know what I mean). The other poster.. Mildot made it more personal with their comment of how they would call me up. I don't really care enough to get in an 'over the internet fight' though.

I want to make this clear: I WAS NOT and AM NOT ranting about him being on the horses trail, like I said earlier I don't give a hoot who is on what trail (but obviously with horses I will stay on designated trails). I only wanted to rant because of how hypocritical he was being by being so strict with the trails around the barn, yelling at me we 'weren't allowed there' (when we were on the road) and then being on a trail in an area there was NO way he was anywhere near where he was allowed (all horses and bike paths). BUT like I said, me and 99.99% (the exception being this man) of everyone who uses those trails, don't care who is on what trail for the most part as long as they're respectful.



> Why is it "OK" for "everyone" to defy the off-leash dog rule, but this other guy has to abide by the "no pedestrians" rule?


I'm not the 'rule' enforcer, like I said before... whoever is on what trail I don't care. It was just ironic. Defy is a strong word too.



> Breaking rules is exactly how "a young leader in our community and in the horse community" gets in trouble and loses that status. A true leader leads by example - not by breaking rules because "everyone else does it." This goes double for the park commission person who was also mentioned rides with an off-leash dog. Around here, she could lose her job for that. You want to ride with an off-leash dog, be a real leader and get the rule changed.
> 
> There are reasons for rules - even if the reasons stink or we don't like them. 999 times out of 1000 it will not be a problem. Its that 1 other time that gets you. If someone gets hurt (including yourself or your dog) and you were breaking the rules it will be your fault and might even be denied as an insurance claim. Even if you simply want to complain about someone else, your avenues are limited because you are also a guilty party.


Again this is not where I wanted to go with this post... I do NOT want this to become an off leash dog thread. I also do not want to have to defend myself (not like your posts have been attack, thank you for that) I find this all a little ridiculous to be honest.



> I ride many trails where some non-riders would love to see horses banned. I am on the OPs side here - I know people like this guy who doesn't want to see horses. These people just look for reasons to complain. When you break *ANY* rule, that gives them reason to pick up the phone and rat you out. After enough complaints, the trails get closed.
> 
> Even if the "local" officials are in your corner, people like this don't give up. They will take pictures, write letters, document incidents and raise the heat until they get someone to listen. Some will even "create" situations just to ruin your day.
> 
> And again to Outatheblue... none of this is meant as any type of personal attack or commentary on you.


I understand people like this more than I'd like.. my grandma in a different state is this type of person.


Honestly, I got my harmless rant out of the way. I feel better. I don't see this thread going anywhere good atm, I'm okay if it just dies.

Apologies if I sound cranky, couldn't sleep and had work at 5 this morning, not a good combination :lol:


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## robohog (Nov 24, 2011)

Wow this thread is getting a little intense! lol. sorry for my bit. maybe we should all just go look for carrots and relax! lol.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

If he is seemingly shady and whatnot, Outtatheblue, please be careful and keep your space.. I've been watching too many Law&Order specials at night.. all paranoid now 

But on a more serious-er note (not that being stalked isn't serious.. it is!!) let's not all criticize or correct or judge the OP. The OP is a human being and it is obvious to me that the OP just wanted to vent.. so the OP could feel better or get some advice... NOT to get told off or criticized or anything else negative per say.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> If he is seemingly shady and whatnot, Outtatheblue, please be careful and keep your space.. I've been watching too many Law&Order specials at night.. all paranoid now
> 
> But on a more serious-er note (not that being stalked isn't serious.. it is!!) let's not all criticize or correct or judge the OP. The OP is a human being and it is obvious to me that the OP just wanted to vent.. so the OP could feel better or get some advice... NOT to get told off or criticized or anything else negative per say.


Exactly... thank you!!

Unfortunately, this 'park' is VERY remote (remote to the point it's a place where kids go to do drugs, drink and smoke usually when the weathers nicer though) and there are few people who actually go there, most of whom look shadier than this guy. Which scares the crap out of me when I ride out or run through it, I avoid going alone. Criminal Minds is one of my favorite shows, probably not the smartest idea! Haha, but because of it I'm always extra careful, and stay away from any sketchy looking people.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

You've seen the defensive riding on the trail right? http://www.horseforum.com/trail-riding/self-defense-trail-60340/


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

OuttatheBlue said:


> I just think I will skip rants in the future, I don't think I'm being clear enough. I had no problem with your post, yours was matter of fact technical stuff, which is ok to see from the perspective of a lawyer (not saying you are but you know what I mean).


I think we are on the same page. As long as you understand I wasn't attacking you.

The last thing I would like to say on this topic is simply... thank you for not calling me a lawyer. :wink: I would have changed my positive opinion of you if you stooped to that level of attack.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> You've seen the defensive riding on the trail right? http://www.horseforum.com/trail-riding/self-defense-trail-60340/


I just watched it! Pretty good advise, my horse can do all of that plus he's pretty tall so I think I should be pretty safe 



Tazmanian Devil said:


> I think we are on the same page. As long as you understand I wasn't attacking you.
> 
> The last thing I would like to say on this topic is simply... thank you for not calling me a lawyer. :wink: I would have changed my positive opinion of you if you stooped to that level of attack.


 Thank you for keeping the topic light!


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

we have the same problem In the park near my stable walkers and runner are pushing the horse out .The park is a horse park but the people complain about the horses, I know that some horse people are not doing the right thing but I get people telling me to get out of the park I tell them this is for horse to use If the park in your area is for multiple use them you have a right to be there so do not let the other use push you out once that happens them you could lose the park to horse use this has happen to two parks in NY already


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

loveduffy said:


> we have the same problem In the park near my stable walkers and runner are pushing the horse out .The park is a horse park but the people complain about the horses, I know that some horse people are not doing the right thing but I get people telling me to get out of the park I tell them this is for horse to use If the park in your area is for multiple use them you have a right to be there so do not let the other use push you out once that happens them you could lose the park to horse use this has happen to two parks in NY already


We have several parks that were donated to the state specifically to be horse parks. There has been quite a few fights to keep horses from being booted off those same said parks by the state becuase hikers don't like horse apples.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

loveduffy said:


> we have the same problem In the park near my stable walkers and runner are pushing the horse out .The park is a horse park but the people complain about the horses, I know that some horse people are not doing the right thing but I get people telling me to get out of the park I tell them this is for horse to use If the park in your area is for multiple use them you have a right to be there so do not let the other use push you out once that happens them you could lose the park to horse use this has happen to two parks in NY already





Darrin said:


> We have several parks that were donated to the state specifically to be horse parks. There has been quite a few fights to keep horses from being booted off those same said parks by the state becuase hikers don't like horse apples.


That's all so crazy to me... if you don't like the horse apples then maybe not go on the horse trails!


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Funny, but I've found the opposite to be true.

We ride frequently at the Chickamauga National battle field, and I think most people enjoy seeing a horse and rider.

Many kids don't see horses up close very often and we've had many ask to pet them and then chat us up for a few minutes.

Maybe it's the nostalgia of it all?

On the other hand, there are some liberal tree huggers who think anything that leaves a track in the forest is bad.

Around here, I think most people still recognize and appreciate the beauty of a horse and rider. As long as we're courteous and polite and allow them a few minutes to enjoy our animals I think there will be more people for us than against us.

One lady, walking her dog alone, told us that what we had was her dream, horses, and a man that cared enough to ride with her. I asked her to repeat that, as I wanted my wife to hear it twice.


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## OuttatheBlue (Dec 8, 2011)

gunslinger said:


> Funny, but I've found the opposite to be true.
> 
> We ride frequently at the Chickamauga National battle field, and I think most people enjoy seeing a horse and rider.
> 
> ...


I've met some people like you've described! One time when I trail rode through a more popular area, there were picnic places set up and there were always families around, when the kids were polite we allowed them to come up and pet the horses, and answered questions they had. Riding along the rode, i LOVE when a van of kids passes by, the looks on their faces pressed against the glass is priceless.

I think your trails sound great, with people with great attitudes who are really there to enjoy nature.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

gunslinger said:


> One lady, walking her dog alone, told us that what we had was her dream, horses, and a man that cared enough to ride with her. I asked her to repeat that, as I wanted my wife to hear it twice.


Two happy thumbs up. I want that too, and it's great to see horses out on the trail. Then again I own a horse so maybe I'm biased.

And don't animals leave tracks on the trail? I mean how else were bears and foxes and whatnot caught before the 1900s?


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> And don't animals leave tracks on the trail? I mean how else were bears and foxes and whatnot caught before the 1900s?


Well of course there were, but it's not 1900 anymore.

The urge to protect the land has always been alive, but recently, it's taken a turn to exclude all but the young and fit, and only on foot, and in many places, no camp fires allowed. All for the sake of conservation and preservation.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Radical "environmentalists" will not stop until they have excluded EVERY human use of the wilderness.


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

I also stop and let people pet my guy He loves it and It is a good way for people to see horses in a positive light so when I tell them the problem they sometimes go to park office and tell them how happy there were to see horses in the park


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

mildot said:


> Radical "environmentalists" will not stop until they have excluded EVERY human use of the wilderness.



And the Ocean, rivers, etc.

Man is bad, bad, bad.....

I think all of us here love the outdoors......and realize it must be used for people to appreciate it.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I would think that most horsemen are lovers of nature. People will only protect nature if they know it exists and you can't box us up in concrete jungles. I am in favor of protecting the environment; I am not in favor of keeping horses, hikers, etc. out of nature. We are part of nature.


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