# Stubborn Back Yard Breeders



## Hailey1203 (Dec 12, 2010)

I gotta ask, is the amount of stubborn back yard breeders increasing, or is it just more noticeable now due to social media?

I've noticed a lot on this forum lately both adults and children looking for advice on breeding their mares, simply because they like their mare and want a baby.

It appalls me that these people can ask for advice on breeding, but refuse to take the best advice (which is, don't breed).

Sorry if this seems harsh, I'm just a little dumbfounded by this...


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## mred (Jan 7, 2015)

I can't disagree. I have two really good AQHA mares, but don't plan to breed anytime soon. I have enough horses and foals down here can sell for $35 to $50 this fall. But I must amit that I love a foal in the spring.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm not sure that 'backyard breeders' is the right title for these people
I know plenty of what could be called Backyard Breeders' who have produced some top horses over the years
Maybe indiscriminate breeders would be more suitable
The majority of unwanted useless horses that flood the market come from places where a mediocre stallion that maybe has a pedigree linked to some well known horse gets turned out with a load of scrubby mares and then left to fend for themselves until they're old enough to break


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I think it's a mix of social media and uneducated horse people in the market. And both are a dangerous combination. Let me give an example: 

Jane* has two mares. Jane has never had riding lessons, does no more than plod along the trail until her mares decide to bolt for home (literally), and considers herself a trainer and instructor. I have had to fix many of Jane's problem training horses and riders for other owners who never had lessons and didn't know better. Jane recently decided to breed these two grade mares to a registered stud who has no show career, but a 'great' lineage and is really shady in terms of reproductive health. One mare is barren initially, but the other took. Luckily the mare also turned out to be unable to foal to term so Jane was nothing but in debt by a few $$$$$$ and with two mares who still have training issues, and now can't be bred. 

I am not a die hard, breed only registered and show horses type of person. In my area people breed and sell grade horses just as much as the do registered ones. (It was pretty much an impossibility not to as many farmers use a 'two foal' rule. Quite simply, if a prospective stud (grade or otherwise) met ALL the requirements to breed, they'd offer a free breeding to two mares. Mares got bred on the condition the farmers would be able to evaluate the foals, when the foals came the farmers waited until they were two or three and saw what they're temperament was like and if the stud would pass on quality genetics. Usually the mares picked are grade farm mares who have excellent 'baby sitting' temperaments and the farmers want to get a foal to replace her for their grand kids or to work the fields.) My colt was one of these, though in a rare occurrence he is register-able; but I've seen many fantastic grade colts from this undertaking. I've seen just as many excellent grade horses as I've seen bad registered ones and vice versa. 

I like the term indiscriminate breeding better as a good horse is a good horse. Getting back to Jane, that was indiscriminate breeding. She had no thought as to the marketability of the foal, the quality of the mare or stud, the temperament, or the training. She just thought: Foal. Whereas my colt was born from a breeder of that particular breed who I suppose some might say is a backyard breeder. They don't have a four star place, their stud has a great lineage but is not in the show circuit at the moment due to time constraints, and really it probably looks like a backyard breeding facility. However, unlike Jane, this breeder kept the stud a stud after the two foals BECAUSE both ended up with a phenomenal temperament, excellent train-ability, and are exactly what they should be which is Family/Farm/Show horses all wrapped into one. It wasn't a 'oh look, foal' situation, but a 'oh, look, good stud, good mare, two excellent foals in mind and body, let's breed one more in a few years time when these two have a foothold in the market'.


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## skiafoxmorgan (Mar 5, 2014)

I just brought my mare to a boarding facility, and the one of the first questions I was asked was, "Have you ever bred her, and do you want to?" 

No.

My girl has an incredible temperament, is fairly well bred two generations back, with known names, and would likely make amazing babies and be an amazing mother. 

However, with the glut of horses out there, and my sure knowledge that I don't have the facilities or money to support a foal to adulthood and then train said horse into solid equine citizenship, I couldn't imagine breeding. Not just because I have a mare and she's pretty or likable. 

Those that do perpetuate the sad dozens I see in the slaughter pens.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

I agree. I think it's more of the "Ohmagosh, I want a cuuute wittle baby horsie" and then "I'm going to do it and prove them wrong" adds to that. 

All I can do is shake my head. Would I love to have a mare, breed her, and have a foal? Yes.

Would I do that? No.

Most people we see are uneducated but think it's easy and the foal is going to be exactly like mommy.


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## ArabLuver (Aug 27, 2014)

The entire point of breeding horses is to breed for a better horse.

In my honest opinion, grade horses should NOT be bred. Horses with questionable conformation faults should NOT be bred. Too many people breed because they think foals are "cute" and they think their mares will be "good Mommys", etc etc. All of which are very idiotic reasons to breed! This is part of the reason we have so many horses that are not worth a ****. The other issue is that many people just do not have the knowledge to take care of a pregnant mare and a foal once it arrives!

Too many useless horses have been bred for selfish reasons.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

To me backyard breeding has never so much been those people who have a okay mare and want a foal to raise and train etc. It might be grade or not but I don't really see a problem with made owners wanting the experience of a foal. Its probably something that I will do at some point in my life.

Backyard breeding to me are those who usually purchase multiple mares with the intention of breeding them to often cheap and unfortunately low quality studs. Often the mares are ottbs or grade, and completely unproven in at discipline. The sires aren't much better, some registered, some colored, others convenient. These breeders produce foals with the intention of selling them often young and untrained.

I don't think they are growing. They're just more visible. These days less people have land, led have horses, less breed. The ones that do are just quite obvious/vocal.


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## budley95 (Aug 15, 2014)

It's definitely more visible. I live out in the sticks where I am with a lot of travelling people putting a lot of horses out together. Every year there are more foals with awful conformation im fields full of ragwort and not enough grass to support the herd, so often they break through fences into other fields or onto the road ( this is why my boys kept on diy a 30 minute drive away!). These people just leave the horses to it and the foals often end up on a website called "dragon driving". A 10 month old filly was on there last year wearing a full set of shoes anf already broken to drive. But i digress... Indiscriminate breeding has always been a problem, there's just more being done, such as gelding clinics, to try and combat the problem. Especially after we ended up with horse meat contaminated with bute in our food chain instead of beef. So glad I'm not a fan of red meat... Unfortunately all the time people buy the cute wittle fluffy foals with defects and no real breeding, we create a market for more, and those that they cant sell end up in the food chain...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think your impression is that there are more because of social media that keeps continually bringing the subject up for discussion, and threads like this that are primarily posted to rank on backyard breeders, thus keeping the amount of talk on the subject up, and increasing your impression that it's more prevalent in actuality.

I have no statistics, but my guess is that it is becoming less common, in actuality.

much like people thinking the world is more crime ridden, when in actuality, violent crime has gone down. it's just the exposure to talk and re-talk on it never ceases to re-energize public interest..


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## mred (Jan 7, 2015)

For the ones that want to raise a foal. You can go to a auction, buy a mare that is in foal, cheap. Let her have the foal, in six months sell her and still raise the foal. Unless you have papers, you most likly don't know what you will get. I saved two mares over the years. One mare had a great colt with the best temperment. Mare went back to the show ring, She was hot headed. Second mare was the best and still is for a good trail horse. But her colt has a hot headed temperment, has been gelded for over a year and still needs a lot of adjusting(work). We have enough GOOD horses and foals being born without me breeding any. If you want a foal, buy one and save it from the meat market.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I do think that the media has brought it more to our notice - plus a very sudden and dramatic crash in the economy that affected the US & the UK - when money suddenly becomes tight one of the first things to go is the family horse(s). People at the lower end of the market aren't buying 'average horse' the way they used too - the top end of the market hasn't been hit anything like as badly
Budley mentioned the plight of the Gypsy horses in the UK - they're being abandoned all over the place, at one time these horses were bred for the meat market so you never saw the problem - they were taken to a sale and off they went, usually to the Continent - but the EU Passport and Micro-chipping rules has put a stop to that - yet for some crazy reason they keep on breeding the poor things


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I'm not sure that 'backyard breeders' is the right title for these people
> I know plenty of what could be called Backyard Breeders' who have produced some top horses over the years
> Maybe indiscriminate breeders would be more suitable


 I have a problem with the term "backyard breeder" too. With me it started with dog breeding. I know of many people who are very conscientious breeders of very good quality show dogs doing it on a very limited basis in their home so technically in their "back yard" 

I don't have a problem with someone wanting a foal from their mare even if the mare is a grade providing that she has no heath issues, has good confirmation and has shown ability, and has the right temperament, if they are planning to keep the foal and raise and train it and have the knowledge to do so. This also depends on their ability to choose the right stallion.

I do see it occasionally with horses but more with the minis, mares with terrible confirmation bred to a stallion no better. What do these people think they can possibly produce from this breeding? The weanling will never bring enough money to cover the cost of keeping the mare, although you do see some offered at very low prices. So that puts you back to saving a weanling instead of breeding since it is much cheaper and at least you can choose the sex and color. If you have any kind of eye for seeing potential you may end up with a very nice horse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i agree that indiscriminate breeding is a more accurate term
This includes people that decide just because a mare has a uterus, she should be bred, esp if she can't be ridden
It also includes those that breed a mare just because it is 'so cute' to have a foal.
Horse grows up, they have no skills to start that horse under saddle, find out that training fees would be more than that horse is worth in the end, thus minimize their loss and dump that horse at an auction
There are also horse industries , like the racing industry that is built around that horse making money. When that horse fails to do so, it needs to find someone to adopt it, or the slaughter option is the only avenue left.
OTTB's at least, have an adoption funded program, far as I understand, while Standardbreds do not.
Luckily the PMU industry is no longer very viable, where foals produced were just a by product from that hormone production, and mares were bred not by demand for offspring, but rather for that estrogen ladened urine
Problem with horses, is that they lie between being truly livestock and pets, thus unlike cattle, prices are driven by what someone is willing to pay for a horse, and not really on what that horse is worth
Thus we have fads, like Gypsy Vanniers and Freisens, and even minis at one time. The former two were draft horses in their native country, plentiful and certainly nowhere near the price that they demand in North America-simply through the laws of supply and demand. These horses have not distinguished themselves in any discipline, yet people are willing to pay big bucks for them, then when it gets beyond the 'breeder's market', just like the ostriches, they become a dime a dozen
heck, I remember when a mini stud in our area sold for $20,000. Few years later, that horse and other like him, could not bring more than $100 at an auction
Well bred prospects are also flooding the market. Many people get into the horse business, thinking that they only need to buy some well bred mares and a stallion, and people will be knocking down the doors for their foals.
Wrong-it take promotion under saddle, which translates to major bucks if you can't train those bloodlines yourself and create a demand for full siblings, direct offsprings, etc
That is also why I stopped breeding horses when I got to an age, and had knee replacements, that I could no longer start those young horses we produced under saddle
There always remains a strong market for a proven performance horse, esp a good solid non pro or youth horse.
The part of the horse market that is suffering, is young prospects and green horses just started under saddle, with no particular breeding
The entry level riding horse price, ws always just above meat market value. Once the meat market was gone, the value of that entry level saddle horse fell, to the point that auction marts were demanding a deposit before that horse was unloaded, as at times the horse sold for less than the cost of putting it through the sale


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It was certainly the case with the Gypsy horses - in the UK they were cheap horses for riding schools and trekking centres and usually a quiet beginner horse - the poor quality ones went for meat. Then suddenly a few Americans thought they were a magical breed and paid mega bucks for the horses along with the romantic story tied to their long flowing tails and they were over bred to the point of ridiculous. Ironically the silver tongued dealer/breeder they dubbed The King of the Gypsy Horses who sold the highest priced one ever to go through an auction ended up in prison on charges of abandoning and neglecting those 'precious,valuable' horses because he could no longer sell them once the market dwindled


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Breeding has declined over the years as hay prices have gone up and horse prices have gone down. 

Social media has publicized the dark corners and it gets rehashed and revived over and over. We see more of the negative aspects of the horse world, abuse, neglect, starvation, genetic diseases and bad breeding practices. Negligent breeding can occur anywhere and we can know about it as though it happened next door. Before social media, we won't know that J. Doe halfway around the world had their horses standing in 8x8 box stalls with no turnout or regular cleaning for countless years while continuing breeding their diseased horses. At the click of a button we are connected to countless posts and reports of bad breeders who put the welfare of the horses below other considerations. 

Backyard breeding by name is commonly misused as someone who only breeds one or maybe a handful of foals their entire life could produce World Champions whereas a large breeding operation could produce hundreds of foals but never make something nice enough to go beyond local open shows. The way I would describe a true backyard breeder is as someone totally indiscriminate about what they are breeding in terms of temprament, conformation, genetic diseases, marketability (worth more than meat prices) and having the means to care for that foal they create for the rest of its natural life if needed. In the breeding section of the forum, it is too common that a mare owner wants to breed because their friend/neighbor/guy down the road has a stud and offers a free or dirt cheap stud fee. I see in craigslist ads such breeders that are trying to dump stock that got the bad roll of the dice in conformation and selling them as breeding stock (pictures of the most horrendous front legs on a race bred thoroughbred yearling and advertised as future broodmare) because they have excellent bloodlines or those with grade colts selling them intact and advertising that they would make great sires of more grade foals (no exaggeration, actually saw an ad by someone selling a large group of grade yearling arabian colts that could not be registered but advertised that they would be excellent for using as sires of grade part bred Arabians). 

Every crisis, news story and bits of gossip around the world can be posted in seconds for all to read and shared thanks to social media and the large numbers who regularly use social media. But the stories are continually rehashed and republishized so even if it happened 5 years ago, it appears again as though it just happened. So if you did a search on bad breeding practices 5 years ago, it wouldn't seem like such a problem because not as much was put in social media then. If you did a search on bad breeding practices today the results would be much more as not only are there more publicized in the media but there are multiple repeats of each story (many of which are likely years old but still come to the top of the search)


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Not fond of the term at all. I'd bet money that more of the foals out there on the market come from big breeders than from people who breed their one mare to get a foal from her. Why the people that want a foal to raise get all the flack is beyond me.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Many moons ago I was given a TB mare that was a failed racehorse. She was one of the boldest I have ever ridden cross country, lovely looking mare too.

She had a very nasty kick to her hock amd was going to be off work for months so, I decided to breed her. 
This would have put me in th 'backyard breeder' bracket.
I covered her first time with a TB, one of the approved TB stallions then available to smaller breeders.
She threw a colt foal. I broke it as a three year old, had some wonderful paces amd temperament. At five I leased him to a friend to go Point to Pointing with. He won four races forst season and was second in his other race. 
I sold him for a considerable amount of money and he went into training to be a steeplechaser. Won three out of five races then in his next season was brought down and broke a leg.

I bred five foals from the mare, all went on to be good horses, two were in the showing world, one was eventing at top level though never really a 'top' horse. The last went on to be a Grade A show jumper. 

Not bad for a BYB!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> The entire point of breeding horses is to breed for a better horse.
> 
> In my honest opinion, grade horses should NOT be bred. Horses with questionable conformation faults should NOT be bred.


No it isn't. It might be the PURPOSE and the focus of show breeders, but it is irrelevant to most people buying a horse. Many more horses are used for recreational riding than for showing. As a matter of fact, the local sale (a big one) sees more 'unwanted horses' that are 'failed' show horses or, what we call the 'flunk outs'. A lot of them also come from 'color breeders' but don't have the desired color or come from halter horse breeders of several different breeds. What do you do with an ugly halter horse that has a rotten disposition, moves like a pig on its upright legs and has no training (or ability for that matter) that would relate to making any kind of a saddle horse out of him?

I have bred and raised horses for 50 years. The best reason to raise a horse of any breed, type or use, with or without papers is that you have a either a USE or a MARKET for the resulting foals. We raise healthy, sound horses with good dispositions. TRAINABILITY is our first and most important aim. We want sound, solid horses with substance and athletic ability and hopefully, good looks and conformation but don't raise specialists for the show ring. 

After raising literally hundreds of registered Quarter Horses and dozens of registered Arabians, I am currently looking for a GRADE stallion to breed a number of my Driftwood and Colonel Freckles bred mares to. I already have a list of people that want me to contact them if I find what I am looking for because they either want foals by him or they want to bring a mare to him.

How does THAT fit into your idea of what people should be raising? People should be raising what they can use or what other people want -- no matter what that is.

No one should raise a foal that they do not have a use or a market for. Hopefully, that use is not just top end showing or performance, because there MUST be a plan for the flunk-outs. 

No one should raise a foal that they do not have either the knowledge to train or the money to get it trained unless then KNOW there is a sure market for that foal.

JMHO Cherie


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Personally I would rather buy a horse at I liked the look of but had an unknown pedigree than one that had the most fantastic pedigree but was not what I wanted.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> Personally I would rather buy a horse at I liked the look of but had an unknown pedigree than one that had the most fantastic pedigree but was not what I wanted.


 I think we have all seen poor quality horses that the owners brag about because there are a few important names in the pedigree. I agree, I would much prefer a quality horse with an unknown or mediocre pedigree. 

I remember a registered TB yearling that might have impressed someone if they just saw his bloodlines but unfortunately he came out looking like a draft cross! Sweet fellow but huge and extremely heavy boned


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The only time pedigree matters is if you're breeding for breed specific show classes
Not sure how it works in the US but in the UK, Aus and NZ we have show classes that are based on type and it is more than possible to breed from a mare or stallion that's never even been ridden and as long as its got great conformation, action and temperament you can get yourself a winner that will sell for good money
If you want to compete then using a proven stallion and mare becomes more important - but most of the top competition horses at present are strictly speaking - like Valegro for example - Grade horses with a very mixed pedigree when you go back just a couple of generations


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## mred (Jan 7, 2015)

I think that most agree, don't breed unless you have a market or plan to keep the foal. There are too many good horses, including foals, without homes.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I disagree with the "Grade" statement--particularly when, by definition, that simply means a horse that cannot be registered. There are a huge number of people in the industry (dare I say the majority?) that don't particularly care about registration.

My horse is registered with an H/J association, but that's it. He still shows just the same


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## Hailey1203 (Dec 12, 2010)

Sorry about my use of the term "backyard breeders", i didn't realize there was a better term to explain what i was saying


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## MajorSealstheDeal (Jan 4, 2011)

JCnGrace said:


> Not fond of the term at all. I'd bet money that more of the foals out there on the market come from big breeders than from people who breed their one mare to get a foal from her. Why the people that want a foal to raise get all the flack is beyond me.


THIS. Exactly.

I like my mare, she's healthy, talented, and well bred. When the opportunity came up to breed her to a great stallion, I took it. I'm not breeding multiple foals per year and dumping them on the auction block or bombarding facebook with for sale ads. Those are the ones who should be on blast.


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## Malice (Mar 10, 2012)

Ugh I've had to see the backyard breeders though process first hand this year from my boyfriends parents. While they may not be stereotypical backyard breeders the result is the same. 
They have a stud, owned him since he was a yearling or something and now he is in his late teens, hasn't been breed for years and years but this spring they not only decided to breed him once but THREE TIMES. 
My boyfriend absolutely hates the stud (He's bad minded, which he gets true from him sire, and has conformational foals he almost always stamps on his babies) but his grandparents are of course absolutely in love with him and his breeding, which is good…but for completely different style of riding then what they want and even though his sire is extremely famous and rare to see a direct son of him now, is why he's bad minded. 
They've decided to breed him because my boyfriends mare, who is out of him, is doing extremely well because she somehow took almost completely after her mama. She's the only one of his foals that has really done well.
And now they're breeding him to one of their mares because she's lame and has good breeding (but again bad minded) and then his dad's main riding horse for a reason I can't fathom. Just ugh so frustrating, and can't say nothing either because they are the "all knowing" type of people.


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## mred (Jan 7, 2015)

Malice, The question is what are they going to do with the foals. If they plan on keeping them forever. Great. If not, there will be three more on the market. Unless they are really great foals, the cost of feed an vet bills won't be covered in what they will sell the foals for. And if they keep to sale later, you have to add in the feed and training to get them to age.


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## BarrelRacer23 (Aug 17, 2011)

I think we just see it more with social media. I have a friend who wants to breed her mare when she doesn't even know her mares breed. I bite my tounge, it's lucky she probably won't ever have the money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Malice (Mar 10, 2012)

mred said:


> Malice, The question is what are they going to do with the foals. If they plan on keeping them forever. Great. If not, there will be three more on the market. Unless they are really great foals, the cost of feed an vet bills won't be covered in what they will sell the foals for. And if they keep to sale later, you have to add in the feed and training to get them to age.


They have 13 or something horses as it is, which not only is it becoming hard for them to handle the upkeep of all those horses for them now that are getting older ( probably early 60s now) 3 more horses that will probably need daily handling is gona add a whole new ball game. In reality is just 3 more foals that add nothing to, nor improve the quarter horse breed and who will also probably, and sadly, take the brunt of them not having enough time for them.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

skiafoxmorgan said:


> I just brought my mare to a boarding facility, and the one of the first questions I was asked was, "Have you ever bred her, and do you want to?"
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


 For the people who think they will make some money by breeding their mare a visit to a place like New Holland might get their thinking on the right track


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## vonlora (Mar 28, 2011)

Hello Horse Forum,
Never thought about it but I guess I am a BYB. When my uncle passed away 7 years ago I inheritted his three horses, 2 10 year old mares and a 3 year old colt. The mares are sisters and the colt is from one of the mares. They are well bred, all have their ROMs and one of the mares has western pleasure points. For me, they are all excellent trail horses, including the colt. I do breed the colt, but I don't advertise, it is just word of mouth. I don't breed him alot, 8 mares this year. All of his foals have good confirmation and WONDERFUL temperments. Don't think any of the mares were bred to sell the foals, they liked their mare and wanted another horse like her. Some are repeats, as the mares are getting older and they want another for the kids or husband to ride and don't mind waiting 3 or 4 years. I don't inspect the mares or tell anyone they can't have a foal, most are registered, but not all.
But this got me thinking and I am going to see what happened to the foals that are over 5.


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## mred (Jan 7, 2015)

I had to post this here also. Person that had horses and showed horses years ago. Wanted to know if my pony was breed. She is not a year old yet.


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## ZLund (Aug 8, 2014)

Over breeding is the biggest problem - especially for all those abused horses who end up at the slaughter houses. Banned in the US, all the unwanted are sent to Canada and Mexico where even worse abuse happens. Suffering and pain, is what so many unwanted horses go through. Before people over breed, they should be forced to see what happens to these precious beings when they are not wanted and many time inhumanly killed. 

Virtually ALL Canadian Horse lovers want Slaughtering of Horses Banned up here too. 
Breaks a genuine horse lover's heart, knowing what often happens to a back yard bred horse - cute as a foal, but not as an adult horse - Untrained by people who haven't a clue. 
The horses who are over bred the most are Thoroughbreds and Quarter horses, and still what once were priceless because there were so few - Arabians.
Stock yards are jammed with the ones who didn't "cut the mustard".
DON'T Buy, don't breed - Adopt a rescue!


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I have to agree and disagree on many of these posts. I live close to 2 "back yard " breeders one is breeding Trakhener X TB foals and claiming them to be top of the line dressage horses etc. To me she is short tracking the Trakehner breed so she does not have to have her foals inspected. I will say thought that the foals are out of registered stock and very typey. Another local breeder purchased a Fresian Colt and is breeding it to anything and everything - Quarter horses, Walking horses etc and trying to sell "sport" horses that she keeps dropping the prices on. 

BUT- I used to go to a sale at Rita Crundwell's farm where she raised top quality show horses and I can tell you that they over bred - just trying to get that one horse that would win. She bred far more foals than the two farms I mentioned above. Her performance horse sales sold horses for tens of thousands of dollars down to crippled yearlings selling for just a few hundred so another farm could use them for breeding just for the bloodlines. To honestly look at the horse industry you would need to ask the registries to divulge how many horses are bred by large farms as compared to back yard breeders. I think the public would be very surprised. The issues really comes down to untrained horses that end up at auctions and some to slaughter. If more horses were trained to be riding horses and not left for broodmares or halter horses things could turn around. A well trained horse will always sell no matter the breed or color.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Uneducated people who think just because they have something with testicles that it needs to breed anything with a uterus, are very much a part of the problem. 

However, to say DON'T buy, adopt instead, for everyone out there is also wrong.

Many horses are purpose bred, and I prefer an animal with a known pedigree to some auction house mystery pony. There is often a good reason besides just bad luck that a number of horses wind up at auction. 

I like to hedge my bets, so will always take the pedigreed, papered animal over the auction house special. At least I have some idea of what I'm getting, and not blindly buying what could turn out to be a pig in a poke.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think there is a fine line between a good backyard breeder and a bad one. There are folks that are knowledgeable about horses. They do things the "right" way. By this I mean, they know what can go wrong with a foaling, they know how to handle and train a young horse, they know the weaknesses their mare has and choose a stallion that off sets them. They have a plan for that foal. They take the steps necessary to ensure they have a healthy foal and mare (vaccines, ultrasounds, IgG, farrier care, appropriate nutrition, weaning and fencing). The issue I have is when people come on and say I have mare X in foal to stallion Y, neither of which horse has any business being bred (i.e. the combination of nice personality, able to perform a job well and conformationally sound, not sound enough) and than unaware or shocked by the expensive of breeding, the heartache of breeding or the reality of the horse market (its bad, really bad). 

I am a horse lover but I think there is a legitimate need for slaughter. I don't intend to send my horse to one and I will do my best to ensure that any horses bred by my family don't end up there. We do this by not selling to auction and "vetting" new owners. Not everyone can house, feed and care for a horse and I think slaughter is more humane than the common "turn them loose in the desert to survive or starve" that occurs all to often in America.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

I value a good working horse far more than a show horse with a bunch of famous names in his pedigree. Horse shows are unfortunately going in the same direction as dog shows - they're bred to look good (or what some people consider "good") and nothing else. Just look at halter bred Quarter Horses and SE Arabians. 

In the old days, no horse was pedigreed or even necessarily a purebred. People bred them based on whether or not they were good at their jobs. You don't have to be a professional breeder to produce a good horse, you just have to have two horses that have proven themselves to be healthy, sound, and have excelled at whatever you use them for. Working in real-life situations is a lot more impressive than anything they do in a show arena, in my opinion. Give me a rock-solid, mixed breed trail horse any day. :wink:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Not sure what you consider 'the old days' Jessabel, but Arabian pedigrees can trace back 3,000 years.

I don't agree with horses bred to do nothing but stand around and pose. If they're not performance animals, to me there's no reason to breed them.

Pedigrees are used for more than just determining what famous horses are in an animal's bloodlines. Remember, HYPP can be traced back to Impressive, so to me it's important to know what hidden physical time bombs might be lurking in a horse's pedigree. 

Traceable pedigrees also give one an idea about what an animal may be suited for. If you have an unknown, they may have a certain physical type, but that doesn't mean a horse will be suited to the discipline you want to do.

Plus, how many times have I seen people who pooh - pooh the idea of registered horses turn right around and ask what breeds might be in their mystery animal? If it doesn't matter, then they need to stop asking.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Pedigrees are used for more than just determining what famous horses are in an animal's bloodlines. Remember, HYPP can be traced back to Impressive, so to me it's important to know what hidden physical time bombs might be lurking in a horse's pedigree.


To add on to this, most modern grade/unpapered horses are either purebreds without papers or descended from purebred/registered horses. We can trace particular genetic diseases to certain bloodlines but if you don't have any pedigree papers, you are in the dark as to what monsters might have been passed to your horse. For example, AQHA will not register a homozygous HYPP positive horse, they are then unpapered/grade. These unfortunate horses who are ticking time bombs with little value to those familiar with the horrors of HYPP aren't always cut from the gene pool of the horse world and continue to produce N/H grade horses that may or may not suffer attacks (another forum member got a surprise colt last fall and found out the sire was a neighbor's grade H/H stallion who escaped his paddock, traveled down the road and jumped the mare's fence and is HYPP symptomatic). Genetic diseases are spread through breed registries as well as through the grade horses. 

There are just as many badly bred registered horses as there are badly bred grade horses. Most of the time it was because the dam and/or sire had no business reproducing or were a bad combination together. Some of the time it is just a bad roll of the dice as breeding is always a gamble and there are so many things that can pop up (came from a distant ancestor and hadn't reared its ugly head for generations).


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## Squirkle (May 7, 2015)

Where I live there are for sure way too many people breeding for the sake of it. Sometimes to try and get the colour/sex/type they really want and sometimes because they can't be bothered to geld a colt or move it out of the herd so the colt ends up covering a load of mares and producing a load of unwanted foals. They usually end up being rounded up and either slaughtered, given away or sold for next to nothing in groups. 
I took in 4 two week old foals a week ago, why? They had been taken from their moms, rounded into a pen, and when I got to the yard the owner was stood with a shotgun over his arm. 
I really hate irresponsible breeding.

So many people breed because their mare is "so so pretty" and a foal would be just wonderful, until it comes out the wrong colour. Or too feisty. Or too much work. Then it's just another poorly bred animal tossed into an already flooded system to go round from home to home. 
Not that I have any problem with a mixed breed horse, as long as it's healthy. I just don't think there is any need to keep breeding them when there are hundreds already unwanted.


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## ZLund (Aug 8, 2014)

Speed Racer - what I meant was, if at all possible - rescue a horse. Of course there would be reasons to buy too. 
There ARE exceptions and many many responsible people do love and care for the horses they breed. Many even making sure that they are placed in homes where they will be well looked after. 
When I see all the babies that are rescued, like at Bear Valley Rescue in Alberta,(a Very good well organised FOR THE HORSE rescue) where SO many of these youngsters are quarter horses - well, I just shake my head. 

Seems there are those who make a living by just continuously causing these babies to be born and sent to Auction to slaughter.


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## mred (Jan 7, 2015)

I had an accident last year (the year before) and one of my ponies had a foal. They broke out of their paddock. The young stud is now a gelding. I had no intention to breed her. However, the foal is beautiful, paint and will be about 13 hh. Everyone loves her. I will keep her with the others. No, she and none of the others will be breed. While her and her half sister, that i purchased, look good. They both have cataracts. Trait passed down from their mother. Over the years, I have purchased several mares that had been breed, with papers. Most were under $100. It saved them from the meat market. Most of the mares were sold after the foal and at least went to better home. The foals were sold and some were kept. Unless you have a great stud with papers, call the vet. A GOOD STUD MAKES A GREAT GELDING! The market is flooded. We need more good owners, not more horses.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

ZLund said:


> Seems there are those who make a living by just continuously causing these babies to be born and sent to Auction to slaughter.


That's the problem though, because nobody is making a living from turning out garbage horses, even if it's just for the slaughter pipeline. I think some of them believe they're going to make money, some do it because they can't afford/won't bother gelding anything, and others are just ignorant of how undesirable poorly conformed grade horses with untraceable pedigrees really are.

Then there are those who do it because they want a 'cute foal', never thinking about the consequences of bringing another life into existence due to nothing more than immaturity, vanity and because they simply _want_ to.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

this is why i wrestle with my dream of breeding Kigers. There are SO MANY horses needing homes. and i really want to get a well bred, well put together mare and breed her for a performance foal (after she has shown) but i keep hitting the same moral issue. there are times i think you should have to have a permit to breed mares (cheap, the fines would be high for every foal born without a permit).


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## mred (Jan 7, 2015)

Please no more permits or fees or taxes. We need to educate people. You will never stop some of the breeding, but you might slow it down.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> That's the problem though, because nobody is making a living from turning out garbage horses...


But at the other end, you have breeders turning out the overpriced equivalent of AKC pedigreed dogs, that aren't good for anything but a show ring.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Supply and demand, james. If people stopped wanting those overpriced, useless for anything horses, their numbers would drastically decrease. If judges stopped pinning them in the ring, their numbers would drastically decrease. Until that happens, those useless, froo-froo horses will continue to be bred.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

> Supply and demand, james. If people stopped wanting those overpriced, useless for anything horses, their numbers would drastically decrease. If judges stopped pinning them in the ring, their numbers would drastically decrease. Until that happens, those useless, froo-froo horses will continue to be bred.


what I hate about this is that then people breed sporthorses to these halter types thinking it'll improve their baby and what you end up with is a highly muscular horse that is impossible to keep sound...I have struggled with one of these for the last three years....curse QH halter lines.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Yes but you have breeders like one local arabian breeder I know who won't ride her stallion until he is ten years or older. After he is done in the halter ring because "riding them ruins their shape". So, breeding a horse that might be a total fruit cake under saddle but a better shape is a good idea?


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Supply and demand, james. If people stopped wanting those overpriced, useless for anything horses, their numbers would drastically decrease. If judges stopped pinning them in the ring, their numbers would drastically decrease.


Or if people stopped caring about winning shows, and just took pleasure in riding - or in playing with their dogs, in AKC context - or did useful work with them. But no, gotta stoke the old ego by showing off how much you can pay for a pedigree, and then collect a bunch of trophies...


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

See I think there is merit in a purebred horse or dog. I don't like what the AKC for example has done to the English Bull dog or the Saint Bernard. I also own an english lab which is usually seen in the conformation ring and have no desire to own an american style lab. My lifestyle suits an English style lab more. I appreciate a functional high performing paso fino but I have no desire to ride or own one. I think its important that a horse does something other than look pretty. Where you get into trouble is any time anyone thinks that they can make money breeding anything.


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## ZLund (Aug 8, 2014)

right Rookie, re: the Arab breeder

Yes, this is really nuts, isn't it?! If the horse loses it's shape, it's because painful equipment is used on them and their backs aren't strengthened properly before they are ridden. With an Arab, even a treeless saddle helps this. Then if the rider has a good balance in their seat while riding, this also helps the horse.

If this Arab breeder would watch some Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling, they would learn how to give even the unridden horses better posture and shape.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

jamesqf said:


> Or if people stopped caring about winning shows, and just took pleasure in riding - or in playing with their dogs, in AKC context - or did useful work with them. But no, gotta stoke the old ego by showing off how much you can pay for a pedigree, and then collect a bunch of trophies...


_Everything_ we do with horses is for our own egos. If we were truly 'about the horses' none of us would even ride.

There's no justification to pat yourself on the back and hold yourself up as morally superior just because you don't show. Some people like to, while others don't. Some _horses_ actually prefer the show ring to just riding, so you looking down your nose at show people has no merit whatsoever.

The same goes with dogs; many of those animals earn performance championships. Just because it's something _you_ don't want to do doesn't make it meaningless.

I do think it's a shame that some animals are bred merely to stand around, and once their show careers are over they're used to breed more animals that just stand around.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

jamesqf said:


> Or if people stopped caring about winning shows, and just took pleasure in riding - or in playing with their dogs, in AKC context - or did useful work with them. But no, gotta stoke the old ego by showing off how much you can pay for a pedigree, and then collect a bunch of trophies...


 It does exist but not enough IMO, and I think the larger breeding operations and their cliental certainly create a problem. On the other hand an individual with a grade mare that is everything she needs to be to do her job (decent conformation, good disposition, and well broke) and wants to breed for a foal that will eventually replace her is not a problem.

I do see a value in conformation classes for horses, dogs, and anything else, providing that the criteria for winning are those individuals that posses the traits that will also make them useful. There should be some form of inspection for breeding stock to eliminate horses that are neurotic or prone to unsoundness, and dogs prone to physical problems and poor dispositions.

There still would be a large number of people who either don't have the intelligence or lack the desire to put some careful thought into what they are doing.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

rookie said:


> See I think there is merit in a purebred horse or dog. I don't like what the AKC for example has done to the English Bull dog or the Saint Bernard. I also own an english lab which is usually seen in the conformation ring and have no desire to own an american style lab. My lifestyle suits an English style lab more. I appreciate a functional high performing paso fino but I have no desire to ride or own one. I think its important that a horse does something other than look pretty. Where you get into trouble is any time anyone thinks that they can make money breeding anything.


 There definitely is something to be said for purebreds. I don't have a problem with the dog show people at all except that every dog bred is not going to be a show dog and the ones that aren't need to be free of genetic problems and have the right disposition to be good pets.

The same with halter horses. If a foal doesn't have the quality to win in halter he should have a shot at performance but some of them are bred so they will have problems as backyard horses. This is not fair not only to the animals but also the people who end up with them


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> _Everything_ we do with horses is for our own egos. If we were truly 'about the horses' none of us would even ride.


Nope. Pleasure is not ego. If you go on a solo trail ride with nobody watching, or even knowing that you're out riding, that's pure pleasure. Likewise if you do all the show stuff in an empty arena, if that's what you enjoy doing.

Pure ego's when you ride in a show, or on a competitive trail ride, and you count your time wasted unless you come home with a trophy.

Of course most of life is a mix of both, but I do think it's a lot easier for people to tilt too far to the ego side in the show world, whether it's horses, dogs, or whatever. As for example, that woman a few years back who embezzled millions of dollars from her employer to fund her showing career.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

jamesqf said:


> Nope. Pleasure is not ego. If you go on a solo trail ride with nobody watching, or even knowing that you're out riding, that's pure pleasure. Likewise if you do all the show stuff in an empty arena, if that's what you enjoy doing.
> 
> Pure ego's when you ride in a show, or on a competitive trail ride, and you count your time wasted unless you come home with a trophy.
> 
> Of course most of life is a mix of both, but I do think it's a lot easier for people to tilt too far to the ego side in the show world, whether it's horses, dogs, or whatever. As for example, that woman a few years back who embezzled millions of dollars from her employer to fund her showing career.


Then any competition is all about ego if that is what you think. Every sports game would also classify as egotistical, from golf to archery to chess tournaments. How about testing ourselves against others, self improvement and finding learning opportunities? There will always be bad apples in everything, the ones who can't enjoy themselves unless they are winning or showing off wealth to make them self appear better than everyone else. The reason for showing cannot be lumped into one as each individual has different reasons. Pure pleasure can come when you place last, having pleasure is a mental mindset. 

Competitions in performance is how breeders can display how well they can produce a particular discipline which can create demand for their breeding program/stallion. 

Competitions is also a way for trainers to prove how well they train and perform under a microscope. 

Some take pleasure in competing because they don't mind spending money for challenges with their horse partner, socializing with others with the same interest, find their weaknesses to improve, challenging their own skills and are surprised if they get placed because they were just there to have fun. 

Yes there are shows that have too many politics and pathetic fashion fads but again, not every competition has bad apples in the barrel. 

A pleasure trail rider can be full of ego without competing if their mindset puts them or their horse as being somehow better than everyone else. They can boast internally or externally if their ego is inflated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

SunnyDraco said:


> Then any competition is all about ego if that is what you think. Every sports game would also classify as egotistical, from golf to archery to chess tournaments.


Yes, that's what I said. If it's the sort of thing where you're competing against others, and you feel as though you've wasted your time unless you win... Well, that's ego, isn't it?




> The reason for showing cannot be lumped into one as each individual has different reasons. Pure pleasure can come when you place last, having pleasure is a mental mindset.


Sure. It's when the ego trumps the pleasure that you start getting problems, like purebred dog breeders breeding in so many genetic problems because that's what wins shows. Or you start paying outrageous prices for purebred show horses, because you know (or think you know) that the judges award ribbons to the fanciest horse.

Can you honestly tell me that if you took for instance a mustang straight out of the BLM sale and trained it to exactly the same standard & performance level as a $100K show horse, the expensive horse wouldn't win 99 times out of 100?


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## Liligirl (Jun 9, 2012)

In New Zealand this is really bad in the minature horse "industry" so many people who end up with a paddock full of them all inbred and with confirmation/temperament issues. Yuck

I had planned on breeding my standardbred mare. Had a cob stallion picked out and the foal was to be for me, not to sell. Then I decided that it wasn't worth the risk of something happening to my mare. She is my forever horse and I'd be devestated to lose her.


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