# been asked what I think of this face marking... am totally stumped!



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

This mare has thrown a tobiano to a purebred Belgian stallion so she HAS to be tobi, and I think frame?? Just because the face white is so top heavy. But is there anything else??? I'm stumped!

edit; I have permission to post this pic, and I apologise for the size of it!


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i think his blaze looks like a chicken leg with a bite taken out of it.

on a serious note, i am thinking tobi to because of the spots. i am thinking frame because the large amount of face white and lack of leg white. i don't see Spalsh, or sabino, because the white isn't really avoiding the eyes.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

LOL actually lilkitty now that you mention it... XD XD XD

yeah I didn't see any splash or sabino either, which is what had me so stumped. Wasn't even considering the way tobiano would factor into the face white.


----------



## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Since she's thrown tobiano, yeah she has some in there, just not showing up. Though I've never known a tobiano horse to be so minimal as to not have any white markings whatsoever (besides facial).

I can't say much about how pinto genes contribute to facial markings. My TB has absolutely no pinto genes in his background and he has the most huge-*** star I've ever seen on a horse...


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Pic, Reno? I would love to see one  Sometimes large stars can be caused by frame, it depends on the placement of the star itself of course and frame is known to be in the TB breed (just uncommon - but how uncommon is it REALLY when frame doesn't express much if at all without another pattern gene?) - a large high-set star may indeed be caused by frame. Or it might just be a normal face marking, though the theory goes that all white on any horse is due to some pinto gene or another, and it just depends on which one they have as to the expression of it. I have a theory on expression that goes along the lines of there are white suppressing genes, and they're incomplete dominant, so if the horse gets one, its white is suppressed some, but if it gets two, its white is suppressed a LOT. Sort of like cream where with one copy it's diluted a little, and with two it's diluted a lot. Some breeds have more of them than others. Explains crop-outs, and tobianos that hide! AND why, even though Arabians have been bred for a little white but not a lot for MILLENNIA, sabino and to a lesser extent splashed white are both present in the breed. High levels of white suppression, which minimises the white pattern genetics in the breed, but doesn't remove them altogether.

A while back a thread was posted on here demonstrating how tobiano can hide, and pics were posted of genetically tested homozygous tobianos that were completely solid. No white to speak of. It can totally hide! Tobi doesn't cause face white at all, but it CAN affect it if another pattern gene puts it there.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i hope chiillaa comes, i want to see what she has to say!


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Tobiano won't put white on the face. So there has to be another paint gene at pay. I do see frame. Not seeing splash. Sabino...maybe. The edges are pretty jagged looking.


----------



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

My first thought when I saw the pic (without reading) was 'Hmmm, look at the speckles in her [abnormally large] blaze...' 

I guess speckles in a blaze is a tell-tale sign...? This is so weird, as tobaino is known to produce 4 white legs and isn't known to produce facial markings. There must be some other gene affecting it making it do this, whether it be frame or something else you would never guess. 

I can't imagine her having to carry around a big drafty baby! Poor girl.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

What breed is she?


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Unknown, Chiilaa. The girl said she didn't know.


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

oooooh. i am Stumped..


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Is the horse in WA BEP? If she is, I am inclined to think she is standy or standy cross tbh. That would explain tobiano, albeit very very minimal. Possibly frame, although it's not spreading the way I would assume with frame. I think maybe a battle between splash and sabino is what is causing it - splash wants eye coverage, sabino wants nothing of the sort. I think the spots within it I would also associate with white restriction rather than tobiano too, which would explain why she is so minimal.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

it's an American horse Chiilaa


----------



## TexanFreedom (Apr 2, 2012)

But if you say she is leaning more towards one or two of the overos, then that still doesn't explain a tobaino foal... 

I don't dissagree with your explanation, Chiilaa, in fact it's pretty reasonable, but it still doesn't explain why she gave birth to a tobaino foal. 

Do you have pictures of the foal?


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

TexanFreedom said:


> But if you say she is leaning more towards one or two of the overos, then that still doesn't explain a tobaino foal...
> 
> I don't dissagree with your explanation, Chiilaa, in fact it's pretty reasonable, but it still doesn't explain why she gave birth to a tobaino foal.
> 
> Do you have pictures of the foal?


Not denying that tobiano has to be in the mare, as it is not present in the sire's breed. In fact, the fact that she HAS to have tobiano and doesn't have any leg white is the first reason I would suspect white suppression going on


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't have photos of the foal, unfortunately I only have this one pic of the mare.


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

*chants* Test her! Test her!  Then we can all sit around all giddy waiting for the response annnd have the actual genetic makeup. :lol:


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

lol Po but it's not my horse so I can't XD and I don't know if I'm ever going to talk to the owner again, she was totally curious and I was totally stumped so I wanted to educate myself a little more.


----------



## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> Pic, Reno?


I have a good few pics up on Reno's horse page


----------



## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

Chants 'have the owner test her!  "

To me it looks like a blaze that wanted to turn into a stripe lol!

Side note: Am I the only one that thinks this horse doesnt look like it should have a marking on its face haha. It looks like it should be all solid and the light brown around the nose makes it look even neater!


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

My computer doesn't like your profile Reno!

lol Casey I haven't talked to the owner again since she asked me about markings... I was discussing colour genetics in a horse sim game chat room and this random person asks me what I think of her mare's face marking.


----------

