# Soft Bits vs Harsh bits?



## Velvetgrace

I was wanting to know what people consider soft bits (types and makes) and what are harsh bits (types and makes). I personally don't know what one even looks like unless I have a picture. 

So, if you got pictures to contribute to the discussion and help me understand this termonology, I would really apperciate it. 

I don't want to get my mare hard mouth and she is only 3 years old. I would rather use somethiing that is kind to her and only step up unless I really need it. She is beginning to pick up the neck reining pretty well, so I hope to not have to use the bit as much.


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## bluwtrsal

*soft bits or harsh*

You are asking a really great question, and I am sorry I don't have photos. But I can give you some pointers that will help.
First, parts of a bit:
The bar is the part that goes into the horse's mouth
The shanks are the part of the bit that lie against the OUTside of the horse's mouth
The barrel is where the bar joins the shank
Snaffle bits have no curb chain
Loose ringed bits have a ring that goes through the butt, or end of the bit - usually the cheekpieces of the bridle and the reins all connect to a single ring - there is a lot of play in this type 
Snaffle bits work on the corners of the horse's lips, the bars of the jaw (where the horse has no teeth) AND - if too wide, too narrow, or adjusted too low - the roof of the horse's mouth. Which is why they wing their heads all over the place; it acts like a nutcracker on their jaw as well.
The fatter the bar, generally the kinder the bit. Bars that are twisted, barbed, have an edge, or are wires are NOT kind bits.

Curb bits have curb chains or curb straps and shanks which may be stationary or movable. If you look at a curb bit, the longer the shank is from the barrel (where it connects to the bar) to where the rein connects, the more action is on the curb chain/strap. This will make a horse lower its head, trying to get out of the curb chain's way. Horses with too much curb often have their noses tucked inward as far as the chest.
The higher the shank from the barrel to the ring the cheek piece connects, the more action will be placed on the poll. This is a very tender area for the horse. Horses with too much poll leverage will also lower their heads, but you will see them trying to relieve the pain in their head by dropping through the neck, and the nose pointed OUT. Pity the poor beast wearing an elevator bit with shanks as much as 6" above and below the bar - it basically works like a vise with the head stuck in the middle.

Rings on any bit allow for more lightness of action. If a bit has big rings, things roll around nicely, but still have limits. Small rings - or even rectangular slots - for either the cheek pieces or reins, quiet the motion, or add a stillness, to the bit - which may be good or not so good for the individual horse.

Looking for a kind bit will be looking for a fat bar, the width of which will be suitable for the horse. Whether the bit is a snaffle with one or more joints, or a curb, the fatter, the kinder. If the bit is a curb, go with the shortest shanks possible going down, and little shank above the bar. Try it with a leather curb strap first, then a curb chain - and make sure the chain lies flat.

Hope this helps!


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## horsestar8100

These are the bits I consider soft
Bits that aren't twisted (like the corkscrew snaffle), have a low or medium port, they don't have excessively long shanks (over 5"), aren't spades, don't have chains for the mouth peice (they really do exsist anywhere, and I think their called mule bits. And some look like bike chains). 


This is what I ask myself before I bit a horse, would I be happy and content with _ that_ in my mouth, or would I be tossing my head because it was causing pain or rubbing me the wrong way? It's the same thing when I ride a horse, and I was trying to master the 2 point position, would I want someone thumping down hard on may back because they lost their balance? Or pulling on my face because their trying to retain balance. That's how I look at it. Some people think they need harsher bits to control their horses. That's just an obvious sign they don't know how to ride or to ride properly. That is one of my biggest pet peeves.


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## FutureVetGirl

Haha... I actually prefer NO bit... but if a bit is needed, I'd say none that add a lot of "bite". Curbs chains, high ports, twisted metal, etc.

I prefer snaffles for everything. But I know that some horses have mouths that are very strong (usually because of bad training), and so they need a slightly harsher bit... but like what horse star said... if you wouldn't like it in your mouth if you were a horse, forget it.


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## Delregans Way

Soft Bits: 
* Snaffle (egg but, loose ring)
*French link (My favourite!)
* Or your rubber bits

Harsh bits:
* Curb Chains
* Gag's
* Pelhams etc

If you want pictures, google it! That way you will learn yourself


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## FoxyRoxy1507

I dont really believe there are harsh bits or soft bits, it depends on the way theyre used. I use a tom thumb pelham and a lot of people would call that a harsh bit but i also know how to use it without harming my horse and he prefers that bit to any other bit. 

so i believe its also partly the horses decision, i've put a snaffle in my horses mouth, just a regular egg butt and he acted like he was dying and threw a temper tantrum and freaked out, right after that i put the pelham back on and he went absolutely normal.

but i would agree the mule bits are ridiculously harsh just bc of the fact they are not practical.


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## Velvetgrace

Picture 1: Correction Bit









Picture 2: Double Briddle









Picture 3: Dr. Bristole Mouthpiece









Picture 4: D-Ring Snaffle









Picture 5: French Link









Picture 6: Pelham Bit










Picture 7: Tom Thumb Snaffle Bit


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## Velvetgrace

Following pictures were found at:

http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/tack_apparel/bit_gallery/

On the Pelham and others with the chain linked looking curb chain is that a curb chain built into the bit? 

Is the longer the Shank the less aggressive the bit with be? 

I personally don't like the D-Ring or O-ring snaffles. The only snaffle that I personally found that I like to use with any horse is the Tom Thumb Bit, with the copper mouth piece. However, since I am trying to open my mind to new ideas. I will gladly take suggestions. 

Don't Forget... I ride only with a western saddle.


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## valleychick2121

I think the way it goes is the longer the shank, the more leverage you have and the more harsh the bit can be. Don't quote me if I'm wrong though.

I personally use a french link snaffle, that is an eggbutt to start my babies, and then when I want to refine the signal, I will go to a copper bit that is thinner, so more bite. 

I always switch my bits depending on how responsive my horse is. If she seems a bit dull in the mouth, I will go to something that I can still use a refined cue on but she will listen to more. 

If I'm working with a horse that is destined for just trail, I start them in the french link, then switch to a tom thumb and thats the bit they stay in usually. 

My friend STARTS her babies in a half twisted wire snaffle, and they usually get their mouth tore up because she has heavy hands and they don't know how to give to the bit, then with only a few rides, she will switch to a grazing bit. Thats how you get a hard mouthed horse. Hers always go bad after the horse is given back to the owner and they ride in a grazing bit with a month put on them. The horse isn't supple and accepting the bit.


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## appylover31803

A tom Thumb is not a snaffle. A lot of people thing it is because it has a broken mouth piece. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Also, here's an article as to why a tom thumb is not the best of bits...
http://www.markrashid.com/trouble_with_tom_thumb.htm


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## Rubonsky

The only thing I can add, for everyone else did such a great job on the question is you have to remember a *bit is as soft or as hard as the person holding the reins!! * The softest bit can do damage and become harsh if used poorly as well as a harsh bit can be soft if it is not used on their mouth....just a thought.

I usually start my young horses, and love the Myler Combo bits. They have the nose piece for nose pressure before the bit pressure hits, I use the comfort snaffle mouthpiece with the shortest shank. I like it for you get nose then mouth and the Myler does not pinch and is a high quality bit.


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## FoxyRoxy1507

as for the Tom Thumb being a no direct reining bit, this is why its stressed to only use for advanced riders bc by that time that ur going to use a Tom Thump ur horse should be responding to ur seat and leg aides any way and hardly ever having to use ur hands.


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## claireauriga

Useful things to remember that people often get confused:

A *snaffle* is a bit with no leverage. It's nothing to do with it being jointed or not. The following are all snaffles:


























There are lots of bits incorrectly advertised as snaffles. Google Image turns up a ton. For example, Tom Thumbs are advertised as snaffles but they're not, because they apply leverage to the poll.












The 'harshness' of a set of shanks on a curb bit are dependent not necessarily on the length of the shanks but on the ratio between purchase and shank, as well as the curve. It's all to do with angles and moments, but as a general rule, the higher the ratio between purchase and shank, the harsher the bit is.

If it's 1" above the mouthpiece and 3" below, that's 3N of force on the poll for every 1N of force you exert on the reins. The curb bit acts as a lever. If it's 2" above the mouthpiece and 4" below, that bit is actually milder because for every 1N of force you exert on the reins, 2N is exerted on the poll.


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## RedHawk

That's interesting about the tom thumb, b/c in Australia this is called a tom thumb :?


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## loosie

All bits are capable of causing discomfort/pain. I don't think any bit can be called 'soft', but some are milder than others. All bits will be uncomfortable to the horse until they're desensitised to wearing one - just like first learning to wear a tie or glasses is to us. Some horses can find any bit a problem, despite being well desensitised & educated.

Some bits, such as thin or twisted wire ones, or ones that are unsuitable to that horse or the wrong size may be uncomfortable to the horse even with little or no pressure on the reins. Some bits, such as leverage bits(the longer the shank, the stronger the leverage power), mechanical 'hackamores', ones with curb chains, certain styles of mouth 'ports'(the hump in the middle of some unjointed bits), single jointed bars with shanks, such as 'Tom Thumbs' can create strong pain with very little pressure from the rider. Even jaw/nose breaking pressure if used strongly, roughly or in case of accident(bit gets caught, etc) curb chains & leverage are combined, such as Pelhams, mechanical hacks, etc. Some bits can give unclear signals to the horse, such as mechancal hacks who's shanks operate independantly, bits with shanks and joints, etc.

The bits I consider the safest/mildest are double jointed snaffles, unjointed, port mouthed(so long as the port is comfortable for that horse, not big or angular) bits, with or without *short* shanks, depending on riding style.

To a degree it depends a bit on what you're doing & what the horse likes & how his mouth is built - a fat bar in the mouth of an arab or pony might be very uncomfortable. Eg. using a western shanked bit for western style, loose rein & neckreining is one thing, but using it to ride english and use short direct reining will cause problems. 

It also depends largely on the horse's education and the rider's skill. If you're going to 'ride short' and end up putting a fair amount of pressure on the reins either becuase of your insecurity & lack of skill, or because of the horse's lack of education, any bit can be terrible. A single jointed snaffle for eg. will have a 'nutcracker' effect on the horse's tongue and the joint can gouge the roof of the mouth.

I believe that horses are best started without a bit, for a number of reasons(look up Dr Cook's site for more info) in a halter, (non mechanical)hackamore or bitless bridle. The horse needs to learn to yield to pressure in all ways(not just rein pressure), get used to being ridden & following instruction and comfortable & happy about it. 

Then, once the horse can be ridden in such a way that the bit will only be used for communication rather than control, a 'mild' one can be chosen if the rider wants - say for showing or clubs where it's required. The horse will first need to get used to wearing it without pressure, before it's taught to be directed by it. Only very skilled & educated rider/horse pairs should then go on to a 'stronger' bit if they desire it for competition or the likes.

Problems that often lead to people thinking they 'need' a 'stronger' bit are to do with horse &/or rider education & skill - or lack of - or from pain or fear of pain. While (most?) pain while riding can be attributed to saddle issues, often it is the bit or it's use that is the cause and I've found time & again, both in 'retraining' horses myself and helping riders that simply removing the bit removes the issue, many times with little or no additional 'training'.


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## Rubonsky

claireauriga said:


> Useful things to remember that people often get confused:
> 
> A *snaffle* is a bit with no leverage. It's nothing to do with it being jointed or not. The following are all snaffles:
> 
> 
> I am not sure where you got that from, but as far as I've ever known the snaffle IS a mouthpiece type and can have a shank or not. You can have a D ring snaffle, a D ring correction bit...still no shank for leverage, a short shank snaffle, again the mouthpiece is snaffle with a short shank, etc. If you ever custom order a bit you pick out your mouthpiece....snaffle, barrel port, correction, low port, etc. and then your desired shank, D ring, short shank, lose ring, long shank, etc. A snaffle is the type of mouthpiece the bit has, regardless of even what type or style of bit it is.
> 
> A* great book for all these questions is a book called A Bit Better by Myler bit makers.* It goes over what are Level 1, Level 2 and Level 3 bits, what each bit is used for including each mouth piece and each shank type as well as how severe it each bit is rated. I would go there if there are uncertainty or questions.


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## Mira

I agree with the person/people that say they don't really feel as if bits are soft or harsh. I mean yes, some bits have more 'bite' to them than others, but really, a bit is only as harsh or soft as the rider makes it to be. If you know how to correctly use the bit then it's not soft/harsh.


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## claireauriga

Rubonsky, we may have been taught differently, but everything I've seen, everything my instructor has told me, and every source I've ever read, have all said that a snaffle is nothing to do with a broken/jointed mouthpiece but is a bit that works with direct pressure and no leverage. The reins are attached directly to that ring, there is a 1:1 ratio between force exerted by hand on rein and by bit on horse, and there is no curb to apply pressure to the poll and so on.

Furthermore, a lot of those sources also went on to say that it's a very common misconception that snaffle refers to a broken or jointed mouthpiece regardless of any kind of curb.

These would be snaffle bits:


















A kimberwicke would infact be a curb bit as it does have leverage, despite it looking a lot like a D-ring snaffle.

I know I haven't been riding very long, and I certainly wouldn't know how to select a bit for different purposes or problems, but I have been rabidly interested in horses since I was nine, just without the opportunity to ride, and I've seen the misconception over the definition of a snaffle mentioned a lot xD

Perhaps someone else could settle the matter for us? ^^


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## Bucky's Buddy

I think alot of people have alot of different opinions on bits - proven by this topic! Partly, "Softness" or "harshness" of a bit depends on the rider's hands - the harsher the hands, the harsher the bit, BUT, the softer the hands, the softer the bit. It all depends on the circumstances.

I still believe curbs are harsher than snaffles, but not in a bad way. I don't suggest we get all worked up about what defines a curb from a snaffle or a Tom Thumb to a snaffle or curb, or a Kimberwicke to a curb or snaffle, on and on. What works for your horse works for your horse, even if it is a bit that has more leverage or control.

If I put a curb on Sam, and rode western style, he wouldn't know how to neck rein, so that ends that!! :lol: Some horses, if not trained to neck rein, get really confused when asked to turn by neck-reining, then asked to turn direct rein, and blah blah blah, and I know I get confused! :? 

There really isn't any way to settle this discussion, other than everyone agree that what they believe is what they believe, and that's that, and no one will get mad for that. 

Still, It's great to know the differences!


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## Horse Poor

Velvet, yes, that "chain" on the Pelham is an English curb chain, and no it's not "built in", it's attached with curb chain hooks...the Pelham is a double rein bit. A properly fitted and properly used Pelham is a great bit. It's as easy and forgiving as a snaffle on the mouth but allows the rider the option of "adjustable power brakes" so to speak, should they need a bit more leverage to stop a horse who gets excited and begins tanking around. It also enables the rider to position horse's head. About shanks...you have short through long, fixed and loose, swept, bent or straight. The longer, straighter and fixed the shank is, the more severe...

About what is a snaffle and what isn't...the rule of thumb I learned is where the reins attach...if the reins attach directly to the mouthpiece (jointed or not) it is a snaffle. If the reins attach to a shank of any kind, it is a leverage bit. A Pelham is both depending on which set of reins is used.


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## trot-on

I think a soft or harsh bit is the way it in used.. even the simple snaffle can become a harsh bit when reefed through a horses mouth..yet i have a spanish snaffle and when used with light hands can be quite soft...  hope this helps


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## Velvetgrace

So directing back to the question of soft vs. harsh. 

Would a chin strap apply to being harsh with a certain type of bit? In all reality, what is the purpose of the chin strap, advantages, and disadvantages.


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## Burgundian Mercenary

Rubonsky & claireaurigan - I think we do have some transatlantic terminology differences here. My understanding of the term "snaffle" is the same as Claire's, i.e. a bit with no leverage.

On the original subject, I think certain bits, e.g. those with twisted mouthpieces, are always "hard" and I would not use one. However, for most bits, it's a matter of suiting the horse. Some go really well in long-shanked curb bits with lots of leverage, some don't. My horse has a humoungous tongue, so a thick mouthpiece is hell for him. I use a slim Waterford mouthpiece, which he goes well in. Some people say a Waterford is a severe bit and some say it's soft - go figure! 

And, as has been pointed out in more than one post, the hands on the other end of the reins do make a whole lot of difference!


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## Curly_Horse_CMT

*Harsh bits*

The most important part of headgear are the hands that hold it. All bits have the potential of being harsh. It is the hands that hold it that makes it what it is on a certain horse. Plain as day...


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## bluwtrsal

FoxyRoxy1507 said:


> I dont really believe there are harsh bits or soft bits, it depends on the way theyre used. I use a tom thumb pelham and a lot of people would call that a harsh bit but i also know how to use it without harming my horse and he prefers that bit to any other bit.


I agree. I have seen trainers take a beautiful hollowmouth eggbutt snaffel - about the least severe bit possible - and turn it into a living horror for a horse by giving one side a half-twist, making a point in the horses mouth across the roof, and a vise angle across the tongue, and bars. Then add a drop noseband to crank the horse's mouth shut.

Ultimately, bits are only about a quarter of the battle - 3/4s lies with rider education.


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## equineangel91

my standardbred doesnt need a harsh bit, actually he works very well in something that is soft. so i use a jointed pellham. Its very soft because the bars are thick and mild, however my horse has a big head, so the bit itself is actually heavy in weight. The curb chain is there really i use it to get his attention if he ignores a small aid, so that i dont have to use a much bigger aid, just had some curb reign. I consider it a very mild bit for him. My hands are usually very soft in my riding in general, so he doesnt get snapped in the mouth, and he goes very very well in it.

its all in how its used =)

IDK what others think about pellhams, ive heard ppl dont like them, however ive also seen them used very very very wrong =/


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## ArabianAmor

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bits-bits-bits-13654/
Thread I started with lots of great input on Bits!!


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## .Delete.

A bit is only has bad as the rider


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## Zappasowner

Wow it's nice to see people who understand the ethics of bits! I've found that the REASON there are soooo many bits is because there are so many horses!! Horse A likes a thin bit, horse B likes a thick bit, horse C hates all straightbars and horse E won't have any single jointed bit in his mouth it must have a link of some sort and horse D hates hackamores etc etc!!!! Also rider A ruined her horse in a simple o ring while rider B uses the much hated tom thumb and her horse is quiet and happy. Rider F has her curb strap so loose on her curb there's hardly any "bite" at all while rider E has it so tight she better not jerk her hands around even on accident or the horse will rear up backwards! And then there's all sorts of other tiny little details that make these situations even more complicated like the shape of mouth, shape of tongue etc. Then of course the riders hands and ways of signaling etc.


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## Zappasowner

Oh also after reading over this post even more, I've had this curb or snaffle argument before with somebody, well it is hard to know the difference when alot of experts and even my new trainer referred to my tom thumb as a shanked snaffle. Curb bits are leverage bits (reguardless of mouthpiece) though and snaffles are snaffles you pull back and whatever pressure you put on the reins is what the horse feels, leverage gives you more pressure with less pull from you hands depending on the size of the shank. However I would not look down on anybody that wants to call a tom thumb a shanked snaffle, this is a common term for this bit everywhere in the horse world even though it is technically a curb bit. Also with curbs is that alot of the severity comes from many different areas, of course the size of shanks #1 also if the shanks are straight they give less presignal than curved shanks do, and rotating shanks give presignal too, plus the mouthpiece, any port over 2 1/2" can cause palate pressure. Ports less than that though provide tongue relief and are actually gentle. Now when you get into broken curb bits slap me on the face but I like them!! I just don't like the idea of putting a solid bit in my horses mouth so, when I use my tom thumb I leave the curb strap so loose that I usually get very little curb pressure unless I really pull back (which I don't my horse understands my shoulders and seat). If I was allowed to show in a snaffle for western I would but I'm not so I'll disguis my bit with shanks and leave the strap so loose that it acts more like a snaffle than curb. I also have a shorter shanked bit that has 2" shanks and a dogbone in the middle to reduce the nutcracker effect I love this bit even more and well I think my horse does too but really I can't tell the difference he's quiet in the tom thumb and the dogbone bit.


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## Zab

Oh, my favourite subject! 

Before I start, I better explain what I call which.. since I'll just translate from my swedish mind, where snaffles never have shanks etc 








Snaffle: Rein attached to the rings and directly to the mouthpiece. No shanks. The mouthpiece can be straight or jointed.








Curb; has a chain and shanks. Mouthpiece can be different as well as length and form of shanks. (the escauela to the left has no chain in the photo, but you can see that it's supposed to) The cheekpiece of the bridle is above the mouthpiece, the rein is below. (I know the pelham allows you to have a rein in the level with the mouthpiece, but I still say it gives a very slight curb effect.)








Gag: has no chain or strap and the mouthpiece can run on part of the shanks. I concider most western curb bits without a chain more of a gag than a curb, even if the mouthpiece's firmly attached to the shanks.

That's just to make sure you know what I mean, and these are the main types of bits in my world, all bits can be put in one of these three.

The snafle work directly from rein to mouth, the same preassure you feel in your hand, is in th horses mouth. That makes them gentle, in a way. The effect is that they give the horse an impulse to raise it's head (yes, you can make the horse put the head down and forward on them, but that's more with your seat han the bit, and it's not the most obvious for the horse.) 

The curb works indirectly, you feel the rein much lighter than the horse feels the bit, and you have to remember that. Italso gives the horse implses to stuck his nose in, his forehead out and his neck down. You use the curb after the horse has learnt to follow the bit; the curb should be used with release; by taking the rein a bit, making the horse yield, you the release the rein more and the horse follows the rein to a low frame, opposite of what most people think, it's to lower and get the nose forward, not to pull it in. To raise the head, you use the snaffle, and both curbs and snaffles can be used together.

Gags are to me most confusing..as with the curb, you feel the rein lighter than the horse does. But since there is no strap or chain to keep the bit in place and to signal for the horse to move the nose in, the mouthpiece just slides up against the horses ears when you pull the rein. I've never really understood what that's supposed to do, but please inform me if you know.. To me, this is the harshest and most confusing bit, I wouldn't use it. (Much like the ''bitless bridle'' 

So, what makes a bit harsh? If it doesn't fit the horses mouth and education, it's harsh. A too fat bit is harsh since it doesn't get enough place in the horses mouth, as well as a too thin if you know that you can be a bit heavy in your hands. Twisted or bumpy parts on the mouthpiece is only there to make it harsher and should be uneccessary. Copper inlays are usually there for the taste and should be o if they're smooth. Ridicculously high ports (some western bits and possibly some portugeese curbs) is very harsh. Chains or lots of joints (waterloo bit or what it's called? I've even seen a bit made of a chainsaw chain) are both harsh and confusing since it givs a weird preassure and tightens around the chin. Too many moving parts can be confusing too. A two jointed snaffle is never good with a tight noseband (tho nosebands should always be loose) since it can hit the palate and the horse can't get away from that.
Long shanks on a curb might be seen as bad, but many horses prefers tht since it gives a softer warning before the rider uses the rein. Of course it also makes the differense in feeling between hand and mouth bigger.

Other than that, there arn't much ways to saw what is good or bad, mostly it depends on what the horses like and how well it fits in that very horses mouth. 
Mostly it depends on how it's used, but I guess a curb or gag in the wrong hands are worse than a snaffle in the same hands. 
Don't put the curbstrap too lose, it will make the bit more like a gag than a snaffle and completely destroy the purpose of it, making it harsher and more confusing than it would if the strap was right.

On a sidenote; Bitless can be very good, but can also be put under the three main categories I''ve mentioned.
The bitless bridlr and the like (with straps that hugs the horse) is more of a gagbit.
The hackamore (mechanical) is a curb, and shouldn't be used on a green horse, even if it's well educted with bits, it should learn to seek the bitless before you use the hack.
Riding cavessons, muserolas, sidepulls and the like, are like snaffles.

I think that was all.. so basically, whatever fits your horse and your purpose is a mild bit when you use it right.


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## Zab

Meh, didn't reach to edit it into a nicer, more easily read shape 

Also wanted to add that it's of course better to use a harsher bit than to risk your life, but you have to start thinking about why you need a harsh bit and change your riding, or else you'll end up with a horse that has a sweich army knife in it's mouth and still can't be stopped


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## ohmyitschelle

RedHawk said:


> That's interesting about the tom thumb, b/c in Australia this is called a tom thumb :?


I was just thinking that... and started reading the article wondering why on earth the one bit (the one above) that I've found to be the best, is now not good for my mare!!!

As for bitting a horse, I find you have to try a few before finding one you like. I was suggested to use an eggbutt snaffle (hollow mouth) on my mares... what worked for one mare, certainly didn't work for the other! Bailey ended up in a tom thumb... she's incredibly strong in the head, and despite being soft in your hands and asking the correct aid, being an alpha mare, if she decides she's not doing something, you do need to have a little help turning the corners! I've found the tom thumb to be really useful. And its the only bit that Bailey actually respects.

As for Evo, he was started in a full cheek snaffle. He worked really well in it, but became too dependent on the 'wings' as I like to call them. I decided after the basics were installed to try him in an eggbutt snaffle (hollow mouth again)... he hated it... he felt like he had no weight in his mouth and hated to be worked in it. He's now in a JP Korsteel Oval Mouth bit... it gets rid of the nutcracker action, so it's kind of like a french link, but it has an oval link, rather than the flat bar. 

With Honey, I started her in Bailey's tom thumb. I quite like her in that bit, although I am going to buy her a full cheek eggbutt snaffle like Evo was in. I prefer that bit, and because it's a useful training aid, and she is a bit nappy in the trot, I think it will help her. 

Like I say, you're gonna have to look around and try a couple or so... some horses like to feel the weight in their mouth and some like thicker bits. I would start with the snaffles... and go from there 
x


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## Zappasowner

I wonder especially in the tom thumb just how much the curb strap has to do with what action it gives in the mouth. I had an all out cat fight over people on this bit b/c they told me to open my horses mouth and watch how the bit hit the roof of his mouth. So I pulled back on the reins and opened his mouth and I saw the bit rotate backwards and break slightly over the tongue and well that was it. It didn't create a sharp v that hit his mouth or get even close to it. I keep my curb strap loose so this has a lot to do with where the joint is breaking at. Plus my bit is not too big, as someone pointed out in another post, snaffles that are too big will have a much more severe nutcracker effect than one that allows no more than 1/4" on each side of the mouth. Plus my shanks are 3 1/2" long and the purchase is 2 1/4" and that is a really good ratio. I asked my trainer about this bit and she said it doesn't have enough presignal with the shape of the shanks, but rotating shanks give presignal and she said that my curb strap was loose enough to do the job of presignaling the horse too. Now I definantly trust my trainer, she trains people for the AQHA circuit and has a good reputation at many barns so her input put my mind at ease on this issue b/c many people online had me really worried about it.


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## Zappasowner

Ohh I refered to it as a snaffle I meant broken mouthpiece, of course I'm sure you all know snaffle doesn't mean broken mouthpiece all the time and curb bits like the TT have broken mouthpieces


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## Zab

Zappasowner said:


> I wonder especially in the tom thumb just how much the curb strap has to do with what action it gives in the mouth. I had an all out cat fight over people on this bit b/c they told me to open my horses mouth and watch how the bit hit the roof of his mouth. So I pulled back on the reins and opened his mouth and I saw the bit rotate backwards and break slightly over the tongue and well that was it. It didn't create a sharp v that hit his mouth or get even close to it. I keep my curb strap loose so this has a lot to do with where the joint is breaking at.


I've seen so many bits called tom thub I'm not sure exactly which you meant.. :/
But the curb strap is there to prevent the bit from getting an elevator/gag effect, and to make your aids clear to the horse. Having it too loose makes the bit harsher, actually.
And remember that when the horses mouth is shut, there's barely any space at all between the tounge and the palate (a few horses have higher palates tho). But as long as you don't use a snug noseband it's no problem, the horse will just open the mouth if it should hit the palate.
I'm not too impressed of curbs with jointed mouthpieces, but they sghould be ok if the curb strap isn't too loose or too tight...


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## Zappasowner

Here is what I'm talking about. I have the curb strap loose enough to fit 4 fingers in it so it does have a play in the action of the bit, but not a whole lot, it wouldn't act like a gag bit in this case, just enough to give alot of presignal.


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## Zappasowner

If I knew more about bits when I chose a bit I would've chosen (if a tom thumb) a Billy Allen Mouthpiece to ensure abosolutely no nutcracker action and swayed back shanks. Or the bit I'm using now which I love! My horse seems to have no preference though he's really pretty quiet in the mouth.


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## Zab

Ugh..I just found a site with lots of horrible bits..I'll have nightmares.. >< And by te description of them, I get the feeling the curb strap isn't used the way ''over there'' as I've learnt to use it here..
I'm not sure how much 4 fingers is, but that might be something like what I'd mean 

It's just these kinds of bits I have a little trouble with.. especialy when they say they're good for colts or horses with a good mouth..I'm not sure if I want to know what they use on horses with bad mouths..























(not really sure how that's fit..)
I guess I just don't fancy chains or that thin, twisted mouthpieces with long shanks..








But I still think this is the worst..


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## Zappasowner

The first bit looks thin enough to cut cheese I'm not even sure what the second bit is I think the chain goes in the horses mouth like a combination bit? the third ummm......yeah no idea?! I try to keep it simple with bits and just try to get my horse to respond to my shoulders and seat b/c the first horse I had as a kid I ended up making her mouth hard with just an 0 ring snaffle so I REALLY work on having light hands. My OTTB is so sensitive too and I can tell I'm doing things right with him since I can turn him with just my shoulders.


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## Zab

Yah..he secons is a combination hack+bit.. there were some with a steel bow with wired metal on the nose part..

Simple is good..
I'll stick to my riding cavesson an escauela bit..>_>'

Wanna buy this? If the horse runs off he'll probably get stuck somewhere with those shanks, so you can catch him easily! 








Why do people think they need this? O__o I feel a bit upset right now..


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## Zab

It's wonderful with sensetive horses tho  I hope Crow will be the same when he comes back..he's sensetive now but doesn't know what I mean..


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## Zappasowner

Honestly I don't even understand why these are manufactured. If your up to that bit don't you think it's time to send your horse off to a trainer? I'd rather buy a 25$ riding lesson than a 25$ bit you'll get results that last! With bits you can move up and up but you're only buying time until the horse's mouth becomes dead to the new harsher bit. I love hwo responsive my horse has become! I've concentrated on making my whole body signal him to turn and stop and it's really payed off! 

Why would your horse Crow not be sensitive after coming back?


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## Zab

I think he will bem, that's why I sent him away in the first place.. xD I guess I rather hope that I'll be baanced enough to ride him with subtle aids. x)
I'm off to bed now, it's 2 am..


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## Zappasowner

The chin strap is how you get your leverage. The chin strap puts pressure on the jaw and also puts pressure on the mouthpiece, pulling it down on the bars and tongue of the horses inside of the mouth. Now there's advantages like its easier to get a headset out of a horse because of the downwards pull. A curb bit is not always harsh even though it sounds like it, its all in how its used. You can encourage a good headset or pull your horses head forcefully into one. Curb straps should typically allow two fingers stacked on top of each other for looseness. The shanks should rotate (some websites vary) between 30-50 degrees. Mine probably rotates about 50 degrees, it needs to in order for the mouthpiece to not hit the roof of his mouth. Also I use a leather curb strap, this is less severe than a metal chain. Also thick chains are nicer than thin ones. Of cours as it has been said and should be said over and over again the riders hands are more important than any part of the bit.



Velvetgrace said:


> So directing back to the question of soft vs. harsh.
> 
> Would a chin strap apply to being harsh with a certain type of bit? In all reality, what is the purpose of the chin strap, advantages, and disadvantages.


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## Zab

I also want to add; curb bits (with chinstraps) should never be used to tuck the horses nose in. It should be used with giving the rein; you take a part of the rein and give more; the horse yields to the bit and goes up/in, then follows the rein when you release and go down/forward. That's why it's important that the horse has learnt to follow the bit before you use a curb.


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## pigachuws

A tom thumb IS NOT a snaffle bit! A snaffle bit is a bit that that doesn't have a shank. Please learn the difference before you give people advice. The Tom Thumb is one of the worst bits you can use on a Horse. Please don't use one.


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## gee50

pigachuws said:


> A tom thumb IS NOT a snaffle bit! A snaffle bit is a bit that that doesn't have a shank. Please learn the difference before you give people advice. The Tom Thumb is one of the worst bits you can use on a Horse. Please don't use one.


The tom thumb bit should be outlawed.


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## gee50

No metal in my horses mouth thank you.


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