# Done with Pat & Linda Parelli



## savvystables

*DONE WITH PAT & LINDA PARELLI*

I started my Parelli journey in 1999. I was an avid student going to Pagosa all the time and having fun - then Parelli made instructor requirements that were obtainable for me, so I went for it 2009/2010. I sent in my 30 minute video showing them everything they wanted to see. I attended a two week course in 2005, a six-week course in 2007, and a four week course in 2008, which qualified me to apply for a $200 fee. I took the one star instructor course in Colorado in August of 2009, while there Parelli enticed me to take the two star course even before I had my year in as a one star instructor. I took the two star instructors course in Florida, February 2010. My expenses for both was approximately $20,000.00 plus weeks of training. 

Parelli informed us in August of 2010 at the Instructors Conference they were changing the requirements and we needed to pass Level 4 On Line, Liberty, and Freestyle by September 1st, 2011. When the day came in September I remember the loss of dignity I felt when my star rating was removed from "Parelli Connect", my name removed from the Instructor list on the Parelli website, my Savvy Club membership cancelled, my Instructor discount for purchases revoked, and my license to teach suspended; all because I couldn't meet the new requirements of level 4 OL, Liberty, and F/S in one year. What happened to putting "the relationship first"

This not only happened to me - it happened to many many one and two star instructors.

Dignity: the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect.

If you had a dispute with Parelli and weren't compensated please file a complaint online with the Colorado District Attorney. It's simple to do...


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## churumbeque

I know someone that has devoted her life to there program and is in hock up to her eyeballs. I can't imagine her making enough money to make the investment pay off. I heard you have to pay them 10k to go shovel manure for a summer.


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## gee50

savvystables said:


> *DONE WITH PAT & LINDA PARELLI*


I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you get some kind of settlement. Sounds like breech of contract to me. You have what is called "none conforming existing rights" on all your certs. Any new changes can only apply to new certifications. Besides it's all contractual. You met your part of the contract. He must meet his. Any new changes to his curriculum is a new contract. He cannot arbitrarily and capriciously add new conditions to an existing contract. 

I've had to help several folks that dropped big bucks at his clinics. I just saw on another thread that Pat was back in action up in Minnesota. He did some side kick to a horse to show that horses are rougher than people. I would like to see him charged with animal cruelty.


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## Saddlebag

It seems other trainers are deeming students as no longer qualified. It's a hook to get people to keep paying the exorbitant fees.


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## Joel Reiter

savvystables said:


> My star rating was removed from "Parelli Connect", my name removed from the Instructor list on the Parelli website, my Savvy Club membership cancelled, my Instructor discount for purchases revoked, and my license to teach suspended; all because I couldn't meet the new requirements of level 4 OL, Liberty, and F/S in one year.


Can you tell us a little more about what it would have taken to qualify at Level 4 On Line, Liberty, and Freestyle? You say "many many one and two star instructors" suffered the same fate as you. Were there also one and two star instructors who retained their status? What did they do differently than you?

It is not unheard of for any type of professional organization to increase requirements for membership. Attorneys, physicians, public school teachers, pilots and many others are subject to loss of certification due to not meeting new requirements.

Knowing more about what you were expected to accomplish in that 13 months would help us understand whether what you suffered was fraudulent or unfair.


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## MyBayQHFilly

gee50 said:


> I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you get some kind of settlement. Sounds like breech of contract to me. You have what is called "none conforming existing rights" on all your certs. Any new changes can only apply to new certifications. Besides it's all contractual. You met your part of the contract. He must meet his. Any new changes to his curriculum is a new contract. He cannot arbitrarily and capriciously add new conditions to an existing contract.
> 
> I've had to help several folks that dropped big bucks at his clinics. I just saw on another thread that Pat was back in action up in Minnesota. He did some side kick to a horse to show that horses are rougher than people. I would like to see him charged with animal cruelty.


What thread is that?


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## natisha

What license to teach was suspended? You don't need a license to teach. Maybe you mean permission to use his name related to your business? You may get more business without the Parelli name.


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## COWCHICK77

$20,000 ! :shock::shock::shock:


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## gee50

MyBayQHFilly said:


> What thread is that?


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/help-please-things-have-gone-far-576802/page5/#post7429530


Joel Reiter;7429530 said:


> The person who takes credit for the term Natural Horsemanship is Pat Parelli. ….I just watched him at the Minnesota Horse Expo...
> 
> A former black belt in Tae Kwon Do, one of the first things he did with one of the horses was give it a side kick to the chest to convince it to back out of his personal space. ….


This is not horsemanship. *This is animal cruelty*. Humans are not horses. I have my prejudices as my business is equine behavior. I always find contradictions in his methodology. If the above statement is true, it again shows the contradictions in his methodology.


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## gee50

I'm sure *savvystables* (*OP*) meant, permission to use his name (Parelli) related to her business.

As a singular suit this is just a straight breech of contract case. The problem is finding a lawyer to take such a case. A lawyer would rather make this a class action case. Unless Pat is filthy rich, I can't see much of a singular case. It mite be possible to find an animal friendly attorney that would take the case for a low hourly cost. But that's about it. 

This would be breech of contract under most State and probably Federal consumer affairs laws. If enough people complain to the Attorney General Office they might take the case if they feel enough of the general population is being hurt by such activity. Who knows what that criteria is?

If the trade tech. industry or Jr. College system sees an opportunity to make money they mite lobby a State Rep. to propose a new law making animal training a required certification. But not likely.


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## gee50

Another tactic but *risky* is to ignore Pat. I would first pay a contract attorney to go over all the contracts or paper work you signed as well as any and all school/seminar curriculum and advertisements. See if Pat left himself a loophole in fine print to revoke the use of his name/certification for any reason. If the attorney doesn't see it. Continue to use his name until his attorney threatens to suit you. Then you pay your attorney to response to the "Cease and Desist letter" in Letter Head letting the Parelli corporation know that you plan to counter suit with punitive damages (if applicable to that State).

Generally it's the punitive damages as well as pain and suffering (not applicable in most States) where all the monies are made. Loosing a counter suit can cause a plaintiff major "pain and suffering".


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## Joel Reiter

gee50 said:


> He did some side kick to a horse to show that horses are rougher than people. I would like to see him charged with animal cruelty.


I've seen Parelli do that twice, so I assume it's part of his routine. In both cases I witnessed the horses were a little surprised but didn't act like they'd been hurt.

I think it's a pretty slippery slope if trainers start pointing fingers at each other and yelling cruelty.


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## franknbeans

Could the OP say something like "former Parelli……."? OP-that might give you more credibility with folks. I have a friend (former BO) who is also a Parelli instructor…..I was really leary of having anything to do with him when I met him because of that. But, then I found that even though ho drinks the koolaid, he is also a good horseman. Thankfully, he still is.


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## bsms

Joel Reiter said:


> ...I think it's a pretty slippery slope if trainers start pointing fingers at each other and yelling cruelty.


Agreed. If Parelli IS a black belt, he's sparred with enough humans to be able to give a sidekick to a HUMAN without hurting him. If he isn't trained, then he won't be ABLE to sidekick a horse enough to hurt the horse...even trained, that would be tough. 

My horses kick each other often enough, and I never want to be on the receiving end of what they give each other.

I've been known to kick mine. My take-away was that if I kicked my horse while wearing sneakers, my foot will hurt a lot more than my horse will.

As for the contract, it all depends ON the contract. If the contract requires continuing education or gives Parelli the right to remove certifications for XYZ, then the contract will support Parelli. And since I'm sure he has lawyers write his contracts, the contract had better protect Parelli's butt. If it doesn't, then his lawyers should be fired.

BTW - getting legal advice on the Internet is unwise. In the county where I live, the county Bar Association has a referral service. $35 paid in advance will get you 30 minutes with a lawyer who specializes in your problem area and who is licensed to practice law in your state. The details of the law and how it is applied vary from state to state and often work contrary to popular opinion.


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## gee50

Just for clarification: Contracts are for two things; clarification and redress. No attorney will write a bullet proof contract. All law and contracts must have language that is arguable. So if for reasons X, Y and Z, Pat can take someones certifications and prevent them form using his name. He can't use that language or contractual agreement *punitively*. Meaning, the contract is to protect Pat. Pat must be wronged by the other party. He can't use a contract to proactively to hurt others. It must be him that is hurt. No contract can take a persons civil right away. His lawyers know this. They would not write or intend the contract to used in such a manner. So, if he has done this to enough people. No matter how good his Law firm is, he will loose in court hands down.

Contractual law, like all civil law is about money not justice. If Pat is using his contract to make money or take money from a person in perpetuity. He is being _punitive._ So the $64,000 question is... Does Pat have deep enough pockets or a high enough public persona to make it worth while for an attorney to represent a plaintiff?

Just to make it clear. Money to the court is not the same as money to you and me. From the courts point of view, money is inextricable connect to people as a representation of their personal self worth. Money to the court is a civil right and part of a person. Money can speak for a person and is a 1st Amendment Right. The newest case in the long history money and civil rights within the The United States of America is CITIZENS UNITED v. FEDERAL ELECTION COMMISSION.

It is clear to me that OP is being hurt not Pat.


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## Saddlebag

A few years back a gal took one of my horses to a 3 star clinic. Fees of course are high which included additional liability ins where the venue was held. But at the end of the second day it was announced that one could not longer attend a clinic without first joining the Parelli organization which would add on a few hundred dollars and this was the annual fee. Most of those enthusiastic about taking a future clinic withdrew their application feeling it wasn't worth the additional expense. As Buck Brannaman says "these clinics are pocket change for some people while others save for a year to attend one".


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## bsms

gee50 said:


> Just for clarification: Contracts are for two things; clarification and redress. No attorney will write a bullet proof contract. All law and contracts must have language that is arguable. So if for reasons X, Y and Z, Pat can take someones certifications and prevent them form using his name. He can't use that language or contractual agreement *punitively*. Meaning, the contract is to protect Pat. Pat must be wronged by the other party. He can't use a contract to proactively to hurt others. It must be him that is hurt. No contract can take a persons civil right away. His lawyers know this. They would not write or intend the contract to used in such a manner. So, if he has done this to enough people. No matter how good his Law firm is, he will loose in court hands down....


I strongly suspect you are not a lawyer. While it is probably impossible to write a bullet proof contract, it is certainly possible to write one with strong protection for one party and minimal protection for the other. It is up to both signing parties to determine if the contract is acceptable to them.

Parelli has a right to license others as a Parelli-trained instructor. I do not know how the contract was written, but it would be entirely possible for a contract to specify that Parelli has the right to increase standards at a later date, or to decertify the use of his name by someone who doesn't meet his standards. 

If the OP wants to know her legal rights, I would strongly suggest talking to an attorney in the state where she lives. The attorney will probably want to see the contract. Following legal advice given by strangers on the Internet is a good way to get into trouble. I'm not a lawyer. I also do not give legal advice over the Internet...other than to consult a lawyer if you have a serious legal question. If it isn't worth $35 for you to learn the correct answer, then it isn't a very important question to begin with.


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## Zexious

This is unfortunate, and I can see how you would be very frustrated, but maybe a blessing in disguise?

Perhaps considering interning under a BNA so as to get your own name out into the community~


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## Regula

I do understand the frustration. I also think it is a good idea to follow bsms' advice and get a lawyer's opinion. However, I would NOT get myself into an expensive legal battle.
What I would ask myself is, regardless of whether you still call yourself a Parelli-certified instructor or not, do you have the feeling those courses were worth what you paid for them? Do you feel like you have learnt enough about horse training for your time and money to be worthwile? Or do you NEED to be a Parelli-certified instructor for business purposes?

In the end - at least to me - what it comes down to when I take a clinic or course is "have I improved the relatioship with my horse / my riding / my skills as a horse trainer / my knowledge about the specific topic?". I don't mind paying for a big name, as long as it reflects the quality of training. I do mind paying for a big name for the sake of the name though.

Of course, that's a little bit different for professional training, but you don't need a license for being a horse trainer. So really, the only thing at stake is whether you can use his name for advertising your own services. 
I agree that what you describe sounds like a scheme to make more money for Mr. Parelli. But obviously you were quite happy with what you learned in those courses, so even if you can't call yourself a Parelli horse trainer anymore, move on and use the knowledge that you have gained to train horses. That's what it's all about, no?


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## Saddlebag

A local gal spent $5K at a session in Pagosa Springs. Hauled her horse thousands of miles. When she returned very little to no interested customers. I had her come out to see what she could do with my walker. I was not pleased. She's been riding and handling horses since 10 so no excuse. My walker had no respect for her whatsoever and he's a pretty respectful horse with everyone else. She allowed him to nibble on her shirt. Her ground work was pathetic. Had him back up and move forward and circle her, but spent most of her time looking at him looking at her. I cut it short. Never had her back. I didn't need her but felt if she'd done a good job I'd have had her back a few times so she could have a reference.


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## Regula

Well, no professional development course (equine or otherwise) will ever guarantee you that you will actually be good at what you do afterwards. There are too many other factors that play into it - practice, character, talent, discipline, the ability to apply what you learned for example. So I don't think Pat Parelli is to blame entirely for people who take his courses and still don't know how to train a horse afterwards.

Who knows why he increased the requirements for being a Parelli certified trainer. It might be that he is just trying to make more money. It might be that he is seeing a problem with too many trainers that advertise with his name and aren't actually all that good.
I personally think it would be a lot fairer if he made the admission requirements more stringent rather than making people take his expensive courses and then telling them afterwards "sorry, changed my mind, you're not good enough after all".
What's important though is that he fulfills his end of the contract and that he delivers what he promises. If he promises that after x number of courses you'll be able to advertise yourself using his name, then that is what you should be able to do.


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## Rancher6

Back in the day guys like Parelli were called "Snake-Oil Salesmen." Self-proclaimed horse-training gurus make a fortune from gullible horse owners. Most of the programs are gimmicks or just _variations of centuries-old horse conditioning techniques wrapped up in new paper and given a jazzy name._

They want you to think they've invented something new...and trust me, we humans have been training horses to ride for going on six-thousand years and *there ain't nothing new. *They'd like you to think that everybody before them--the Parthians, the Greeks, the Arabs, the Mongols, the great European national studs didn't know a **** thing about conditioning horses until they--Mr Parelli, Monty the "Horse Whisperer" et al--came along to show everybody how it's supposed to be done.

I drove by a neighbor's pasture some years ago and saw him walking along in front of his horse, flapping his arms like a duck and bobbing his head up and down. I pulled over and said, "Jim, what the h*ll are you doing?" He said, "It's Parelli. I'm training the horse."


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## boots

Once upon a time, many years ago, PP was a decent horse hand. Had a nice little wife and a nice little life. Never went without work with horses of some kind. 

Not sure how someone gets to thinking all their ideas are good ones, but that seems to have happened to him. 

Bottom line, I'm glad he gets people off the sofa and out with the horses they are scared of. But I won't let a Parelli-ite on my place. Takes the rider, for those that actually ride, too long to get on. My horse and I have got a 1/4 of our day done and they are still getting themselves psyched up with some voodoo/superstitious routine the "snake oil salesman" sold them.


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## greentree

I usually worry about anyone who trains with a "program". Every horse is different. If trainers listen to the horse, instead of consulting some card, or book in their pocket, or video, that is how a horse gets trained.

I admit, I lost about $400 to PP the first time I saw him.....I felt like I had been hypnotized, and walked into the arena and handed over my cc! I did get a good halter and lead rope out of the deal. I read the book, but got annoyed with the alliteration.

I am sorry you could not get out before they got so much of your money and time.


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## Zexious

A thing to consider too is that Parelli is a bit of a trigger word in the horse community... very polarizing. Perhaps, without that name attached to yours, you may get even more business! Let us know how it's going.


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## bsms

The lady who trained our horses originally started out as an XXX trainer. I think it was John Lyons, but I'm not sure. I don't even know if John Lyons did that stuff. In any case, as she trained more horses and built up a reputation, she stopped calling herself an XXX certified trainer. She has continued to take lessons in training from other people, has now trained a lot more horses and seen a lot of problems and had to experiment with different approaches to find the one that worked on the individual horse. I think she now runs about a 3-4 month waiting period for accepting a horse - simply has more business coming her way than time and facilities to handle the demand.

If someone told me they started using Parelli's system and then branched out as they worked with more horses, to the point they no longer considered themselves a "Parelli Trainer" and were no longer licensed to claim it, that would increase my chance of hiring them. Around here, being an "ex-Parelli trainer" might bring in more customers. OTOH, if someone advertised themselves as a "Parelli 4 Level" (or whatever it is called), I'd avoid them like the plague.


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## Captain Evil

Maybe the OP's business will improve without the Parelli name, maybe it won't. Time will tell about that, but, in a way, that's not the point. True, the OP has whatever knowledge and experience s/he may have gained, and that can not be taken away, but s/he paid a pile of money for the certification, and I am astonished that it can be taken away.

I have an high school degree, a college degree, some post-graduate degrees and certifications, and put a lot of time, money and work into them. I would be outraged if my High School voided my diploma if I didn't go on to college, or if my old Alma Mater revoked my diploma because I failed to continue to take courses with them, or my art school canceled my certificate because I haven't produced any great art. I earned it, it's mine!

I can see them adding stuff on for additional courses, like First Level Parelli Instructor, BB (Black Belt) or LSX (Lead Snapper Excellent), but to yank it? No way.

This sounds like some kind of extortion to me.


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## bsms

There are a number of areas where continuing education is required: nursing, preparing taxes, legal fields, etc. In a case like this, it would all depend on the contract - which none of us but the OP has seen. There is this statement on his website:

"Staying updated is an important part of being a Licensed Parelli Professional."

What is a Parelli Professional? | Parelli Professionals


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## natisha

bsms said:


> There are a number of areas where continuing education is required: nursing, preparing taxes, legal fields, etc. In a case like this, it would all depend on the contract - which none of us but the OP has seen. There is this statement on his website:
> 
> "Staying updated is an important part of being a Licensed Parelli Professional."
> 
> What is a Parelli Professional? | Parelli Professionals


The occupations mentioned have continuing education not only because the States require it but because things change, new things are added & the things you seldom use get forgotten. I'm not sure any of that applies to horse training. I mean if you're training a horse you're training a horse & any changes will be dictated by the horse, not a program.


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## stevenson

These type of trainers are in doing what they do for two things.. money and fame. 

That is their priority.


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## PaintHorseMares

stevenson said:


> These type of trainers are in doing what they do for two things.. money and fame.
> 
> That is their priority.


I agree. They *may* actually be good horsemen, but they are certainly even better businessmen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Captain Evil

bsms said:


> There are a number of areas where continuing education is required: nursing, preparing taxes, legal fields, etc. In a case like this, it would all depend on the contract - which none of us but the OP has seen. There is this statement on his website:
> 
> "Staying updated is an important part of being a Licensed Parelli Professional."
> 
> What is a Parelli Professional? | Parelli Professionals


Yeah, that is true. But horse training? I have to get a physical every five years to maintain my Captain's license; but they only issue it for five years; it has an absolute expiration date. 

But when I worked as a child psychologist, I could have hung out a shingle and practiced forever without any further education. Might not have been smart, but I could have done it. But because I worked with a medical institute, the hospital required us to attend periodic trainings, but they couldn't have yanked my degree. They might have fired me for non-participation, but I still could be self-employed with my degree. I might have starved ....


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## Chasin Ponies

Honey, it's _always _about the money no matter how big the name. And, for all those fancy credentials where does it get you? 
Dear old Pat & Linda are among the worst but take a look around-_all _the biggies have their own gimmicks to sell and people latch onto them as if it was a religious experience.


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## Joel Reiter

stevenson said:


> These type of trainers are in doing what they do for two things.. money and fame.


Well, as my dear old philosophy professor used to ask, compared to what? I suppose none of the trainers on this forum train for money. Doing a lot of horses for free, are we? Donating half our time to working with rescues?

The real difference between "these type of trainers" and the rest of us is they are wildly successful. From what I know of the Parellis, Clinton Anderson, Julie Goodnight, Chris Cox, Monte Roberts, Dean Winters, Stacy Westfall, Charles Wilhelm, Mark Rashid, John Lyons, Josh Lyons, Craig Cameron, Buck Brannaman, Ken McNabb, and I have met and talked to several of them, they love horses just like the rest of us. Some of them are ambitious workaholics with motors that never stop, so of course they make more money than normal people with the same ability.

And when a horse owner makes enough progress with her own horse to go from being afraid to ride to enjoying her horse again, of course she will have loyalty to the person and program that made the difference.

All the people I know who have any wealth got there by being more gifted, harder working, and willing to take on more risk than me, whether they are business executives, horse trainers or construction contractors. I don't begrudge them the fruit of their efforts, and I find it irritating when others do.

The Parellis are a special case. Somewhere along the line, Pat Parelli, horse trainer became Pat Parelli incorporated, and decision making started being divided up between way too many people. I think Parelli, Inc. has helped create the polarization that Zexious mentions with some stupid decisions.

For example, back around 2008, shortly after Parelli, Inc. came up with the "horsenality chart" they entered an agreement with Myler bits to offer the right bit for every horsenality. They have since backed off. Whose idea was that, and how did it get approved? The goofy idea followed by the reversal gave the impression that decision making was out of control. I suspect the same thing led to the issue of the OP of this thread. It certainly isn't doing Parelli any good to have hundreds of angry former certified trainers out their bad mouthing him.

But just because Parelli didn't think through his certification program very well before he started it doesn't make any greedier than the rest of us.


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## Textan49

Regula said:


> I do understand the frustration. I also think it is a good idea to follow bsms' advice and get a lawyer's opinion. However, I would NOT get myself into an expensive legal battle.
> What I would ask myself is, regardless of whether you still call yourself a Parelli-certified instructor or not, do you have the feeling those courses were worth what you paid for them? Do you feel like you have learnt enough about horse training for your time and money to be worthwile? Or do you NEED to be a Parelli-certified instructor for business purposes?
> 
> In the end - at least to me - what it comes down to when I take a clinic or course is "have I improved the relatioship with my horse / my riding / my skills as a horse trainer / my knowledge about the specific topic?". I don't mind paying for a big name, as long as it reflects the quality of training. I do mind paying for a big name for the sake of the name though.
> 
> Of course, that's a little bit different for professional training, but you don't need a license for being a horse trainer. So really, the only thing at stake is whether you can use his name for advertising your own services.
> I agree that what you describe sounds like a scheme to make more money for Mr. Parelli. But obviously you were quite happy with what you learned in those courses, so even if you can't call yourself a Parelli horse trainer anymore, move on and use the knowledge that you have gained to train horses. That's what it's all about, no?


 Regula has a good point here. There are people other than myself that would cringe if the trainer I was considering told me that they were a strict follower of Parelli (or C.A. or anyone else) If you can train and get good results you can build your reputation on that. For those who like Parelli, you can say that you have studied under him. That would not be a breach of contract.


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## bsms

Captain Evil said:


> Yeah, that is true. But horse training? I have to get a physical every five years to maintain my Captain's license; but they only issue it for five years; it has an absolute expiration date...


I'm not a Parelli fan, but he would have every right to insist that someone using his name needed to do XYZ to make sure that person was still training IAW what Parelli is currently doing. I've heard Parelli made some sense some years back, and has changed his approach to a more Linda-centric style. I don't think Parelli started out teaching 'The Game of Contact". He had to wait for Linda to discover riding with contact first...:shock:

If someone licenses you to use their name, they have every right to insist you must do XYZ to continue using their name. You become sort of like a franchise, and you can bet McDonald's requires their franchises to offer their current product line. I wish McDonalds had stuck to burgers and fries cooked in fat, but they didn't and a franchise that tried to offer their old menu would get in deep doo-doo.

Parelli also has a "menu". He has the right, if it is written into the contract, to insist his Mini-Parellis teach the same stuff he does now.


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## stevenson

I look at this way, Parrelli and the rest of them, made a name using concepts that have been used for years. Some business man decided, hey I can make some $$$ putting it on video and getting followeres etc etc, Name brand.. blah blah 
If I went to a trainer and all they could say was they trained parelli et al.. and could not say I trained and competed and won this or that.. I would walk away with my money and find a 
trainer that could stand on their own rep.


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## Foxhunter

Go back to when these trainers were first starting out and they had no gimmicks at all, no carrot stick or dually halters, nothing but their experience, tack and a rope. 

I am not against anyone making money, working with animals is hard work and generally renumeration small. If there is a market for people buying their so called necessary products, DVDs et al then that is just business sense.

If these people offer 'qualifications' then the rules shouldn't be changed to bring in more money and disqualify those with the papers to say they are qualified just because the rules have altered.

Heck, I took my English horse exams some forty years ago for the last ones. I haven't been a member of the BHS for a good 35 years yet I still hold those qualifications even though the whole structure of the exams have changed a lot. 
I will add that I have never had any use for them!


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## Joel Reiter

Foxhunter said:


> If these people offer 'qualifications' then the rules shouldn't be changed to bring in more money and disqualify those with the papers to say they are qualified just because the rules have altered.


I'm still waiting for the OP to respond to my question about exactly what she needed to do to maintain her qualification. She didn't say they asked her for any more money.


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## ducky123

Joel Reiter said:


> All the people I know who have any wealth got there by being more gifted, harder working, and willing to take on more risk than me, whether they are business executives, horse trainers or construction contractors. I don't begrudge them the fruit of their efforts, and I find it irritating when others do.


We have the same irritant. A corollary is those who complain about the advertisements in the TV shows (complainers, hit your fast forward button!) because without lots of ads, there would be no show.


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## Saddlebag

A friend took up riding in his 40's. Did numerous clinics with Parelli instructors. The man has wonderful patience and does great groundwork with his horses, but, his riding skills left something to be desired. He was on a 3yr old and wasn't listening to this colt he'd ridden a dozen times. By ignoring warning signs they got into a wreck. The colt was fine but he was seriously injured. Unless his testosterone was in high gear, with two younger women watching, I was surprised he didn't twig into the colt's signals as he was very good at reading them when doing groundwork.


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## gee50

*OP* writes:


savvystables said:


> I took the *one star* instructor course in Colorado in August of 2009, while there Parelli enticed me to take the *two star* course even before I had my year in as a one star instructor. I took the two star instructors course in Florida, February 2010. My expenses for both was approximately* $20,000.00* plus weeks of training.


If you due the math that works out to $10,000USD per Star rating. Currently there are 6 Star ratings not including the Junior/Trainees rating per the Parelli web site. So conceivably at 2010 pricing you would have to pay a minimum of $60,000USD to continue to use the Parelli name. Within the web site it is clear as you read between the lines and strangely enough is actual printed is a “never ending” pay to play attitude.

I checked out the “”About Professionals” There appears to 5 colored balloons the represent Star ratings 1 thru 5. One colored balloon doubles for the Junior/Trainees rating. I did not see but may have missed a sixth color to represent Star rating for 6. But there is a sixth color to represent those professionals in a Star rating flux. Meaning their star rating does not match their written profile.

I spent a half hour or so going through the web site to get a feel of what Parelli is selling. I found the ad content to read more like a Church or self help web site. Replete with..., how should I say, Parelli Speak? The strange word usage of _license, savvy_ and _program_ rely caught my eye. I found it all very cult like.


----------



## Saddlebag

What I noticed about the program was that it went only so far and stayed that way. Then liberty was added. Another hook to get your money.


----------



## churumbeque

gee50 said:


> *OP* writes:
> 
> If you due the math that works out to $10,000USD per Star rating. Currently there are 6 Star ratings not including the Junior/Trainees rating per the Parelli web site. So conceivably at 2010 pricing you would have to pay a minimum of $60,000USD to continue to use the Parelli name. Within the web site it is clear as you read between the lines and strangely enough is actual printed is a “never ending” pay to play attitude.
> 
> I checked out the “”About Professionals” There appears to 5 colored balloons the represent Star ratings 1 thru 5. One colored balloon doubles for the Junior/Trainees rating. I did not see but may have missed a sixth color to represent Star rating for 6. But there is a sixth color to represent those professionals in a Star rating flux. Meaning their star rating does not match their written profile.
> 
> I spent a half hour or so going through the web site to get a feel of what Parelli is selling. I found the ad content to read more like a Church or self help web site. Replete with..., how should I say, Parelli Speak? The strange word usage of _license, savvy_ and _program_ rely caught my eye. I found it all very cult like.


I know someone with 4 star that has spent well beyond 100k


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## churumbeque

churumbeque said:


> I know someone with 4 star that has spent well beyond 100k


Not very smart in my opinion. They are not wealthy at all and just kept borrowing money.


----------



## Joel Reiter

churumbeque said:


> Not very smart in my opinion. They are not wealthy at all and just kept borrowing money.


I can think of a dozen people that feel that way about every one of us who owns a horse.


----------



## equitate

What is the money spent for? And who will be the students? And what is being copied? Questions to be asked. Certifications which only fall under one person's whim (rather than national touch points) are problematic at best.


----------



## loosie

COWCHICK77 said:


> $20,000 ! :shock::shock::shock:


Imagine what you could do with that.... $384 a week for a whole year... you could almost have daily lessons for that!


----------



## loosie

bsms said:


> Agreed. If Parelli IS a black belt, he's sparred with enough humans to be able to give a sidekick to a HUMAN without hurting him. If he isn't trained, then he won't be ABLE to sidekick a horse enough to hurt the horse...even trained, that would be tough.


Good point! But since when has hitting horses(with foot, hand, whip... not talking beating them of course) been seen as grounds for cruelty charges??? If it were, there'd be bazillions of people charged. And what of the horses that cruelly kick their people??



> As for the contract, it all depends ON the contract. If the contract requires continuing education or gives Parelli the right to remove certifications for XYZ,


That's exactly what it says(including trips to Colorado from wherever you are in the world), so in agreeing to become a Parelli instructor in the first place, that's what OP agreed to. So IMO there is no legal case. Seems OP may just not have read, or taken seriously, what she agreed to.

I reckon there are enough legitimate criticisms about Parelli without calling foul about.... drinking the Koolaid without looking at the ingredients.


----------



## SueC

ducky123 said:


> We have the same irritant. A corollary is those who complain about the advertisements in the TV shows (complainers, hit your fast forward button!) because without lots of ads, there would be no show.


Well, I'm grateful that in Australia we have the (no-ads, taxpayer-funded) ABC. And funny how the commercial channels rarely have intelligent programmes worth watching. And the odd good movie is always nicer watched uninterrupted on a hired or purchased DVD! 

I'm going to put out a corollary: No customers for gossip rags = no funding for paparazzi and so-called journalists, and no financial rewards for invading people's privacies and making up stories about them, plus less funding for advertisements that were created to perpetuate and extract money from people's insecurities, e.g. about personal appearance, or sell unhealthy foods etc. I reckon Screwtape has lots of underlings in advertising! (And politics, public policy etc, for that matter.)


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## Zexious

Captain--Whether or not her business takes a turn for the better or worse may not be the point, but isn't it better to prepare yourself to move forward than dwell on the past? xD

Joel--As far as someone being "more gifted, harder working, or and more willing to take risks." That's simply not the case; welcome to the 21st century where it often takes more than the above to become wildly successful.


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## danny67

*The Parelli philosophy is not about 'relationships'. It's about $$$$$!* Buahahaha (see what i did there)

With all that dedication and instruction I bet you are a great teacher even without savvy certification.


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## ducky123

Zexious said:


> As far as someone being "more gifted, harder working, or and more willing to take risks." That's simply not the case; welcome to the 21st century where it often takes more than the above to become wildly successful.


As the old saw goes, success is where luck meets preparation.


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## tinyliny

the OP seems to have dropped this bomb and left the discussion.


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## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



bsms said:


> There are a number of areas where continuing education is required: nursing, preparing taxes, legal fields, etc. In a case like this, it would all depend on the contract - which none of us but the OP has seen. There is this statement on his website:
> 
> "Staying updated is an important part of being a Licensed Parelli Professional."
> 
> What is a Parelli Professional? | Parelli Professionals


Thanks for your post...
I was continuing my education by attending courses, special clinics, assisting courses at Parelli's and assisting higher ranking instructors.


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## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*

Per our contract... I did keep up on my education... Assisting at Parelli ranch, assisting higher ranked instructors, taking higher level courses and clinics.


----------



## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



bsms said:


> There are a number of areas where continuing education is required: nursing, preparing taxes, legal fields, etc. In a case like this, it would all depend on the contract - which none of us but the OP has seen. There is this statement on his website:
> 
> "Staying updated is an important part of being a Licensed Parelli Professional."
> 
> What is a Parelli Professional? | Parelli Professionals





natisha said:


> What license to teach was suspended? You don't need a license to teach. Maybe you mean permission to use his name related to your business? You may get more business without the Parelli name.



Hi, Parelli calls it a license and charged us $1300.00 bucks a year for it. Parelli also calls us Parelli Licensed Professional.


----------



## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



tinyliny said:


> the OP seems to have dropped this bomb and left the discussion.



Sorry, I'm new to horse forum...I thought I'd be notified when I got a response. Today I checked and oh boy was I surprised to see so many posts...thanks to everyone!


----------



## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



Joel Reiter said:


> Can you tell us a little more about what it would have taken to qualify at Level 4 On Line, Liberty, and Freestyle? You say "many many one and two star instructors" suffered the same fate as you. Were there also one and two star instructors who retained their status? What did they do differently than you?
> 
> It is not unheard of for any type of professional organization to increase requirements for membership. Attorneys, physicians, public school teachers, pilots and many others are subject to loss of certification due to not meeting new requirements.
> 
> Knowing more about what you were expected to accomplish in that 13 months would help us understand whether what you suffered was fraudulent or unfair.


Level 4 is Performance level... Riding bridle less and doing transitions, Flying lead changes, jumping, circles, then in bridle dressage moves, Online playing with you horse out on the end of 45' rope having him circle at walk trot canter - trailer load -jump obstacles - flying lead changes. your horse at Liberty in an open space doing the above maneuvers...too name a few. Very high level of horsemanship.


----------



## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



danny67 said:


> *The Parelli philosophy is not about 'relationships'. It's about $$$$$!* Buahahaha (see what i did there)
> 
> With all that dedication and instruction I bet you are a great teacher even without savvy certification.



Thank you for you kind words...


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## Joel Reiter

Thanks for responding, Savvystables. It does appear that you were the victim of an ill-considered program. Since level 4 stuff wasn't an original requirement, I can understand how someone who sought certification would not have pursued it if the advance requirements had been clear in the beginning. It's too bad Parelli Inc. didn't find some means to compensate people like you.

One person commented that Parelli is a good businessman. Actually, this sort of thing is one more demonstration of the opposite. Parelli worked very hard without making any money for many years. It wasn't until he married Linda that he became successful. I think he takes too much bad advice from too many bad hires. In the long run it has cost him in both money and reputation.


----------



## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



gee50 said:


> I'm sure *savvystables* (*OP*) meant, permission to use his name (Parelli) related to her business.
> 
> As a singular suit this is just a straight breech of contract case. The problem is finding a lawyer to take such a case. A lawyer would rather make this a class action case. Unless Pat is filthy rich, I can't see much of a singular case. It mite be possible to find an animal friendly attorney that would take the case for a low hourly cost. But that's about it.
> 
> This would be breech of contract under most State and probably Federal consumer affairs laws. If enough people complain to the Attorney General Office they might take the case if they feel enough of the general population is being hurt by such activity. Who knows what that criteria is?
> 
> If the trade tech. industry or Jr. College system sees an opportunity to make money they mite lobby a State Rep. to propose a new law making animal training a required certification. But not likely.


Hi, I sure hope students or instructors do file a complaint with Colorados attorney generals office...they told me if they get enough complaints - they will open an investigation


----------



## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



Joel Reiter said:


> I'm still waiting for the OP to respond to my question about exactly what she needed to do to maintain her qualification. She didn't say they asked her for any more money.



Hi, the continuing education and assisting I did cost me a lot of money also...


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## COWCHICK77

savvystables said:


> Hi, the continuing education and assisting I did cost me a lot of money also...


 I am still blown away by the amount of money spent. Sorry Savvystables, that is a hard, expensive lesson learned. I hope something becomes of it.

Savvy, I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain some?
So what was the appeal to go through all of that and spend the money to do so? 
When I was younger I thought I wanted to be a horse trainer so I started at the bottom as a stall cleaner and worked my way up to an assistant trainer through various trainers.(in the mean time I realized I had no desire to train for the public, but I digress) I was basically paid to learn so I have a hard time understanding. Honestly I am not ragging on you I am just trying to "get" what the thinking is going that route.


----------



## Zexious

Duckie--Except when you're born into it haha!


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## MaximasMommy

This conversation reminds me of the Scientology documentary that came out this year...


----------



## bsms

savvystables said:


> Level 4 is Performance level... Riding bridle less and doing transitions, Flying lead changes, jumping, circles, then in bridle dressage moves, Online playing with you horse out on the end of 45' rope having him circle at walk trot canter - trailer load -jump obstacles - flying lead changes. your horse at Liberty in an open space doing the above maneuvers...too name a few. Very high level of horsemanship.


No offense...doing those things probably is not easy, but I also would not describe it as a high level of horsemanship. I'm more impressed with a good barrel racing horse who stands calm until it is time to perform, or someone whose horse jumps with enthusiasm, or a trail horse who will go anywhere unless there is a good reason to balk - and a rider who knows when to accept the balk and when to push ahead. Someone who can turn somewhat nervous or timid horses into good cow horses would impress me more.

Parelli strikes me as being about 'games' in more way than one...


----------



## tinyliny

moderator's note:

Forum rules discourage, the posting of direct links to any sort of online "form" that requires the applicant to input sensitive , private information. if you wish to join Savvy in a legal complaint on Parelli, then PM her to ask how this can be done.


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## gee50

Bummer, *savvystables* has been banned. I would have like to have heard more about the inner workings of PP's system.


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## ducky123

tinyliny said:


> PM her to ask how this can be done.


Seems that if someone is banned, you cannot PM.


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## Saddlebag

With the amount of money spent, she could have gone to Europe and learned with some of the world's finest.


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## natisha

I can usually figure out why someone gets banned but not this time.
Is it inappropriate to ask why? I'd sure hate to suffer the same fate.


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## anndankev

I hesitate to post here; however, agree with Natisha - why banned?

First thought when seeing this thread was that she would soon be squelched.

Then she posted she was warned to cease and desist or else, and then copied and posted her original post all over everywhere.

I had sort of been wanting to ask her if in the 4 years since she lost her certification if she had been working on accomplishing the requirements. And if so could she be re-instated?

A good number of years before her story, I witnessed my sister's trainer be tossed out on his ear. She had sent me to learn from him on occasion. 

Most importantly, the scandal had nothing to do with horses, horsemanship, following rules or anything that this trainer had done, or not done.

Someone mentioned is was sort of like a franchise and I agree with that. I have worked for a hotel, and that hotel had to pay a lot to operate under the flag of the Company. Underwent frequent QA inspections, had to update according to new rules or loose the business derived from the Central Reservation System, advertising, support from the Company ... a virtual death sentence for prosperity.


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## Saddlebag

I'm beginning to suspect the OP didn't tell us the entire story, and because of a grudge is trying to deter people from doing anything to do with the Parelli's. Like the boarder who's late with the board money and gets asked to leave. Boarder then bad mouths the BO to all and sundry.


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## tinyliny

*moderator's note:

*we ask folks to NOT discuss moderating actions , such as bans, in threads. *


from our rules:

15 - Discussions of HF Policy*
Discussions of Moderator Decisions or The Horse Forum Rules/Policies in Open Forum is Prohibited, if you have concerns, Please start a Talk To Team Thread for your concerns.


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## loosie

Been meaning to say Tiny, that's a bit of a freaky ghost cat you got there...


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## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*

To answer some questions...

I was 40 years old when I got into horses and I didn't even know how to put on a halter

I loved learning and being a part of the Parelli world and wanted to be an honest, loyal player, so I followed the rules and spent the money to get an education.

Since I couldn't get any satisfaction from Parelli after their betrayal - without spending a fortune - I'm standing up for myself through social media.

Mostly I'm sad and hurt, and at times angry...I'll be glad when I can let it go completely, but it's not yet...God will let me know


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## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



Saddlebag said:


> I'm beginning to suspect the OP didn't tell us the entire story, and because of a grudge is trying to deter people from doing anything to do with the Parelli's. Like the boarder who's late with the board money and gets asked to leave. Boarder then bad mouths the BO to all and sundry.


Hi, what would you like to know?

I do have a grudge against the Parelli's for the way they treated me. I'm healing by standing up for myself. People can make their own decisions about Parelli.


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## Amateur

Savvy, Parelli is a horse trainer , not family. Maybe you invested a ton of money, but be glad you are out now. Find some good, real trainers out there-the nice, quiet, no nonsense been there and done that kind and you can learn from them. Now they may not be touchy-feely and all cuddly and treat you like family-but they will get you to be able to deal with your horses safely. 

A lot of people I know do not want that. They want the black stallion and someone to keep telling them they can tame the fire breathing beast and make him in to a bombproof horse safe for kids under all circumstances. Then spend years under some trainer -some never even going beyond a walk-and then finally fall apart when they realize their beast is now a spoilt 1000 pound brat who is dangerous.

Forget about the Parellis, move on and find ye a good trainer and be thankful they chose to kick you out-maybe they realized you were not drinking the Kool-Aid anymore??


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## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



savvystables said:


> To answer some questions...
> 
> I was 40 years old when I got into horses and I didn't even know how to put on a halter
> 
> I loved learning and being a part of the Parelli world and wanted to be an honest, loyal player, so I followed the rules and spent the money to get an education.
> 
> Since I couldn't get any satisfaction from Parelli after their betrayal - without spending a fortune - I'm standing up for myself through social media.
> 
> Mostly I'm sad and hurt, and at times angry...I'll be glad when I can let it go completely, but it's not yet...God will let me know





bsms said:


> No offense...doing those things probably is not easy, but I also would not describe it as a high level of horsemanship. I'm more impressed with a good barrel racing horse who stands calm until it is time to perform, or someone whose horse jumps with enthusiasm, or a trail horse who will go anywhere unless there is a good reason to balk - and a rider who knows when to accept the balk and when to push ahead. Someone who can turn somewhat nervous or timid horses into good cow horses would impress me more.
> 
> Parelli strikes me as being about 'games' in more way than one...


Hi, no offense taken... I would like to clear up what I meant but didn't say.
Level 4 in Parelli's program is Preparation for Performance in any discipline you may choose. It is truly magnificent to be out in an open field and be able to communicate with your horse from the end of a 45' line to transition up the gaits and back down including a back up, then to jump over a barrel and stop, followed by moving sideways away and to you over that same barrel, ending with trailer loading. Now imagine doing all that while your horse is free of any equipment - at Liberty - could run away at anytime! Then you saddle up and again without any bridle or halter on your do those same things, plus ride over to the gate- open it and walk out I've accomplished those maneuvers with my mare, and that my friend is communication, trust, and a solid gold relationship.


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## jaydee

Surely the best way to get over this is to move on and leave it behind you?


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## savvystables

For the most part I am done... Emotionally and spiritually I've worked through this. 

When I've exhausted every avenue to seek justice - I'll be totally done. Right now I'm pursuing action through the BBB in Colorado. If I don't get justice through them, my next step will be the "small claims court" in Pagosa Springs, and I'll make a nice little vacation out of it. They have the nicest "hot springs" there

Also, I will be protesting at the Sacramento Horse Expo.


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## natisha

I understand your frustration but your knowledge of training is still there even without the PP name. People will go to you for your skill, not a PP permission slip.
Couldn't you just say you trained with PP but it got too expensive?


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## jaydee

You already feel like you've wasted time and money on PP so why waste any more?
There are other training courses surely with more credible trainers?
I see your frustration but you're not even going to make a dent in that big shiny PP Bandwagon.
Jump off it now and do something better with your life


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## Chevaux

Is there not an old saying that goes something like this: The best way to get even is to succeed at something else? So in your case, put your energies into succeeding as a horseperson and do not credit any of your success to the person troubling you -- doing this says better things of your character than of theirs.


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## loosie

^While bagging them out publicly says nothing much about them & everything about your character.

....I wonder what it does for your legal 'character' & credibility.


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## 4horses

Good luck with the BBB. We changed our tv from cable to internet in January. The Cable company continued to charge us after we switched, even though we asked them to cancel the charges. 

We asked the cable company for a refund. We have called multiple times. We reported them to the BBB. Nothing has been done, and we are yet to get our money back. Every time we call they "promise to send a refund check in the mail in the next week". Only the refund never arrives! 

At this rate I am going to have to record our conversation and go to the local newspaper. :-x


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## Patty Stiller

> This is not horsemanship. This is animal cruelty.


If you are an equine l behaviorist you should understand that if a human 'speaks' to a horse in HORSE language, the horse learns what the human wants faster, responds to requests faster and respects the human as the herd leader. So if the horse failed to move away immediately when gently asked and got a kick to the chest with the side of the human foot, that was just horse language. A language he was born with and understands.(unless he was imprinted which may be why he didn't move in the first place...don't even get me started) So If I ask a horse to move out of my way nicely and he does not respond, then I immediately ask him again more firmly and if he does not respond again he will get hit, punched, kicked or whatever it takes on my puny human part to make the point, just like a lead mare would do. THAT is "natural". Believe me a kick from a human is NOT going to harm the horse but next time the human asks gently that horse WILL remember the horse language lesson and yield the space.


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## BigNickMontana

In my opinion, Parelli's are doing nothing more than running a multi level marketing scheme, and quite frankly I think their training methods in some cases do more harm than good. 

Breakout, do something new, start your own organization, take their business, do it better than they do, and do it right and make something good come of it.


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## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*

Thank you all for your comments... Actually, I'm grateful and overwhelmed with your support. I thought I'd be crucified.

I protested Friday and Saturday at the "Western States Horse Expo" in Sacramento. Pat Parelli was a presenter there. I had a sign which read " Parelli's Unfair to Instructors" and I wore a tank top with the same words printed on the front and back.

Again the response from people was 99.9% positive and encouraging! One man said "life is unfair."

When Pat and Dave Ellis would see me at the arena or their booth, they couldn't even make eye contact.

It was sad I had to protest, but on the other hand it was inspiring and satisfying.


----------



## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



BigNickMontana said:


> In my opinion, Parelli's are doing nothing more than running a multi level marketing scheme, and quite frankly I think their training methods in some cases do more harm than good.
> 
> Breakout, do something new, start your own organization, take their business, do it better than they do, and do it right and make something good come of it.


Hi, a lot of people came up to me and said Parelli wanted us to spend more money to advance...like a pyramid scheme.  My lawyer thought this same thing. I couldnt see it, but it makes sense now.


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## loosie

Patty Stiller said:


> So If I ask a horse to move out of my way nicely and he does not respond, then I immediately ask him again more firmly and if he does not respond again he will get hit, punched, kicked or whatever...


Usually only takes a warning, or one go past a warning(like eg of Parelli's kick) to convince a horse it's worth paying attention to bodylanguage. Just love agisting my mob with other people's horses... one in the recent new mob obviously doesn't get 'horse language'! First meeting he marches up to me, planning on just going through me because my horses were eating behind me. Was perplexed & checked himself when I responded by marching back at him with my ears back & arms flailing! But he didn't back off, just let me run into him & stood there worriedly while I rained a few blows(not enough to really hurt much or do damage, but usually more than enough to get a horse to move). 

I've had to take a big stick in with me(for safety's sake, I have to get him to move out of my way when necessary) & he (eventually) moves off from that, but I've had to hit him a few times each visit with it! He just seems to be oblivious - after a few times I wondered what I was doing wrong... but he's like that with other horses too - not 'dominant', but he'll ignore their bodylanguage until he's actually charged at & kicked & bitten repeatedly! The other horses aren't bullies, it's just that he ignores them until they have to SHOUT at him & actually force him to move. Every time, it seems. Met some 'slow learners' but none quite like him. Eyesight & hearing seem fine. Learned helplessness, dumb dumb or... can you get 'autistic' horses??


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## ducky123

savvystables said:


> Again the response from people was 99.9% positive and encouraging! One man said "life is unfair."


I don't know how encouraging that comment is. To me "life is unfair" is just a more empathetic version of "call the wambulance."


----------



## BigNickMontana

savvystables said:


> Hi, a lot of people came up to me and said Parelli wanted us to spend more money to advance...like a pyramid scheme. My lawyer thought this same thing. I couldnt see it, but it makes sense now.


The worst part is this, yeah it is a pay to play scheme, but with things like the video running around of Pat taking the lead rope and shaking the dog snot out of it in a horses face terrorizing him, a lot of people see that like myself, and instantly the Parelli certification is absolutely worthless. In fact for me it means I wont let that person near my horse because I think that sort of thing is cruel. 

Again that is just my opinion. 

There are some really awesome natural horsemanship programs out there, myself I am a believer in the Ray Hunt/Buck Branaman school of thought. 

I think its a better way and what matters most is not certification but reputation. You do good work with horses, the word will get out, the same if you don't.


----------



## Luv equins

Yup Parelli trainer abuse my horse. Done this Parelli. Also here are some fine examples https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus but if you by my carrot stick and stupid moving easy horse chin wiping mean unneed snap then your horse can do everything.


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## Patty Stiller

> but with things like the video running around of Pat taking the lead rope and shaking the dog snot out of it in a horses face terrorizing him,





> There are some really awesome natural horsemanship programs out there, myself I am a believer in the Ray Hunt/Buck Branaman school of thought.


Ummmmm..you think that "shaking the snot out of a rope" is inhumane? I am confused about your statement because then I cant understand why you would prefer the ways of the late Ray Hunt or Buck Brannaman. They too will harshly discipline a horse IF NEEDED and will use physical contact if necessary. 
So you may be a little misinformed about their methods or have never actually been to a three day clinic in person, as I have several times (as well as Dennis Reis ,also of the same" camp" and I love those methods, BTW). 

I had NO PROBLEM with Buck Brannaman backing my 2 year old colt all the way across the arena while WHACKING him across the chest with the end of the training rope. My colt to my surprize, had a serious hole in his manners that I had missed . Buck was asking him to do something and the colt reared and struck at Buck. I was glad to see it fixed. And I would have done the same thing. Buck didn't leave welts.. but I probably would have. 

As well those guys MAY rope a horse around its neck in the round pen to get control if a horse is either trying to jump out or panicking and wont stop running. Do you think yanking a horse around to face up on a neck rope is also inhumane? 
So I don't quite get it, why do you think a hard rope shaking is more inhumane that whacking a horse?


----------



## Roman

Luv equins said:


> Yup Parelli trainer abuse my horse. Done this Parelli. Also here are some fine examples https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBMuVVMXNUQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus but if you by my carrot stick and stupid moving easy horse chin wiping mean unneed snap then your horse can do everything.


I believe every trainer has some good. The Parelli's seem to work for a lot of people, not others however. 

Second, the video is blurry so you can't see Pat very well, or even know it is him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*



ducky123 said:


> I don't know how encouraging that comment is. To me "life is unfair" is just a more empathetic version of "call the wambulance."


I meant his comment was the .1% negative


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## loosie

Bignick, I was also surprised to see you mention Ray Hunt & Buck, after having such a problem with Parelli for that sort of treatment. Patty beat me to what I would have said on that. They're great horsemen & teachers, but that doesn't mean they're soft. I think Ray was one of Parelli's main mentors as a matter of fact.(I mean, more so than he was one of many, many good american trainer's mentors:wink.

Luv equine, the first vid link was removed by the time I saw your post, but... (thanks for mentioning it was Voldemort Roman...) Afraid I don't give much credence to anyone who gives time to that... ranty person. 

I don't quite follow your 'chin wiping' sentence, but you seem to be saying that Parelli says you need his particular tools & they make you into a good horseman?? That is FAR from the case of what HE says actually, but it seems, so many people... drink the coolaid & take it into their own heads that is the case so they need the tools & get stroppy when it doesn't all work. No accounting for the behaviour of star struck people, but it doesn't mean the star's necessarily the one at fault. 

A long time ago, I attended a few Parelli 'clinics', with my home made rope halter, lead, cut down lunge whip with a loop on the end... the instructors weren't the least... snobby about that, but some of the other participants & watchers were horrified by my lack of 'the real deal'.

There is a lot about Parelli I have issues with. But a rational discussion about pros & cons & principles is one thing. I don't personally think irrational, narky comments(unless they're about his dressage floosy:twisted:) are appropriate, fair or reasonable though.


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## tinyliny

Luv equins said:


> Yup Parelli trainer abuse my horse. Done this Parelli. Also here are some fine examples https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus but if you by my carrot stick and stupid moving easy horse chin wiping mean unneed snap then your horse can do everything.



this thread is not about whether or not PP abused or didnt' abuse. it's about a person who feels SHE was abused in her business interactions with the Parelli group.


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## BigNickMontana

Patty Stiller said:


> Ummmmm..you think that "shaking the snot out of a rope" is inhumane? I am confused about your statement because then I cant understand why you would prefer the ways of the late Ray Hunt or Buck Brannaman. They too will harshly discipline a horse IF NEEDED and will use physical contact if necessary.
> So you may be a little misinformed about their methods or have never actually been to a three day clinic in person, as I have several times (as well as Dennis Reis ,also of the same" camp" and I love those methods, BTW).
> 
> I had NO PROBLEM with Buck Brannaman backing my 2 year old colt all the way across the arena while WHACKING him across the chest with the end of the training rope. My colt to my surprize, had a serious hole in his manners that I had missed . Buck was asking him to do something and the colt reared and struck at Buck. I was glad to see it fixed. And I would have done the same thing. Buck didn't leave welts.. but I probably would have.
> 
> As well those guys MAY rope a horse around its neck in the round pen to get control if a horse is either trying to jump out or panicking and wont stop running. Do you think yanking a horse around to face up on a neck rope is also inhumane?
> So I don't quite get it, why do you think a hard rope shaking is more inhumane that whacking a horse?


It is one thing when you do something with purpose and achieve a result, what I saw Parelli do was different. It was shocking the animal for the sake of shocking it.


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## Foxhunter

I think the most important thing with teaching regardless of what, is to *explain clearly* what is wanted. 

An example of this would be that you want a horse to stand away from you and it keeps creeping forward to you. First I would use my voice, telling it to stand, then I would correct and make it go back to the original position. If it started to creep again I would raise one hand and with open fingers push it towards the horse's face. 
Only of it was barging forward would I start to get harsher with corrections. 

There are times when you do have to correct hard and fast, a boot to a horse with a human foot is nothing to them, I am not talking about a real toe kick but the side of the foot hard enough that they feel it.

What strikes me with many of these trainers is how fast they are to make a horse rush around and do things fast when they have little understanding of what is wanted of them.


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## palogal

So they're liars, crooks AND lousy trainers. Who saw that coming? Be glad you're out now OP. When parelli reinvents the horse again there will be a brand new program.


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## goodhrs

bsms said:


> My horses kick each other often enough, and I never want to be on the receiving end of what they give each other.
> 
> I've been known to kick mine. My take-away was that if I kicked my horse while wearing sneakers, my foot will hurt a lot more than my horse will.
> 
> BTW - getting legal advice on the Internet is unwise.QUOTE]
> 
> I never was a parelli fan, it's just a cult IMHO.


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## STT GUY

stevenson said:


> These type of trainers are in doing what they do for two things.. money and fame.
> 
> That is their priority.



Every human possesses the following traits...Selfishness, Vanity, Laziness, Ignorance and Vanity. 

Fame is great, until it's not and it controls your life. Money is also great but its not everything, ironically it's usually folks with plenty of it who say this. Money and fame are not the sole motivating factors. If you are not at the pinnacle of your chosen field you really cant speak to this issue.


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## hollysjubilee

loosie said:


> Usually only takes a warning, or one go past a warning(like eg of Parelli's kick) to convince a horse it's worth paying attention to bodylanguage. Just love agisting my mob with other people's horses... one in the recent new mob obviously doesn't get 'horse language'! First meeting he marches up to me, planning on just going through me because my horses were eating behind me. Was perplexed & checked himself when I responded by marching back at him with my ears back & arms flailing! But he didn't back off, just let me run into him & stood there worriedly while I rained a few blows(not enough to really hurt much or do damage, but usually more than enough to get a horse to move).
> 
> I've had to take a big stick in with me(for safety's sake, I have to get him to move out of my way when necessary) & he (eventually) moves off from that, but I've had to hit him a few times each visit with it! He just seems to be oblivious - after a few times I wondered what I was doing wrong... but he's like that with other horses too - not 'dominant', but he'll ignore their bodylanguage until he's actually charged at & kicked & bitten repeatedly! The other horses aren't bullies, it's just that he ignores them until they have to SHOUT at him & actually force him to move. Every time, it seems. Met some 'slow learners' but none quite like him. Eyesight & hearing seem fine. Learned helplessness, dumb dumb or... can you get 'autistic' horses??


Do you know the early history of this horse? You can private message me, if you like, so as to not interfere with the OP's subject.


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## goodhrs

That's how horses that were born dummy foals act. They just dont seem to be in tune to their surroundings.


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## loosie

Yeah, no idea of history of that horse, but I'm guessing he was maybe an orphan or such, brought up without other horses to teach him. I'm guessing that's what a 'dummy foal' is, Goodhrs?


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## Chevaux

My interpretation of 'dummy' foal, Loosie, is one that was born simple minded (for want of a better term) -- its almost like they popped out a little before they should and as a consequence their brain never fully developed. I don't know if they would be considered the equine equivalent of autistic or not but its a good way to describe them (assuming they survive infancy as many don't).


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## STT GUY

STT GUY said:


> Every human possesses the following traits...Selfishness, Vanity, Laziness, Ignorance and Vanity.
> 
> Fame is great, until it's not and it controls your life. Money is also great but its not everything, ironically it's usually folks with plenty of it who say this. Money and fame are not the sole motivating factors. If you are not at the pinnacle of your chosen field you really cant speak to this issue.


Was supposed to say "Lazy, Selfish, Vain, Ignorant and Greedy


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## hollysjubilee

STT GUY said:


> Was supposed to say "Lazy, Selfish, Vain, Ignorant and Greedy


_Yes, we are all of those things and more! . . . and it seems that as we get into greater positions of leadership the temptations come harder and faster, and we often forget to SERVE others. We succumb to the temptation of wanting even more control and more service FROM others. (I'm reminded of government officials, too . . . "public servants." ahem)

I have watched several of the nationally known/world known trainers over the years. Each started out dedicated to helping others with their horses, and from what I observed exhibit a true love for the horse. As the business grows, they spend more . . . so they need more money . . . so they buy more and bigger and hire more people . . . and need more money . . . and besides succumbing to the adoration of starstruck groupies, at some point greed can hijack their once honest aim of achieving their Dream.

Greed is ugly as it morphs and disfigures the happy desire to have more of the good things we see around us. Unfortunately, Greed is born of fear-- __fear of not having what one wants or of losing what one has (Anger, too, as is discussed in THE POWER OF TWO by Susan Heitler) and fear is never attractive. Isn't that what we want to train out of horses and out of ourselves? We see the fear come out when people and horses are abused, and it shocks us when we see it in one of our mentors, but it shouldn't shock us. They are just people like us. I'm often reminded that MONEY is *not* the root of all evil, but the LOVE of money is the root of all evil, because when one loves money more than anything else, ruthlessness and cruelty anger and destruction follow. Not only is there destruction of one's original hopes and dreams, but destruction of relationships and reputations.

Learning how to handle the temptation and recognize it for what it is, will keep us on track or put us back on track after a painful fall.

I feel proud of the clinicians who exhibit humility and courage and make it through that struggle with temptation every day and rise above the arrogance and greed to become wiser and stronger in their original focus of helping people help their horses.

I don't know Pat Parelli, yet I've detected arrogance from the start. He's just human and can learn like anyone else. Let's hope he does. We all know that Old Horses CAN learn new tricks. Sometimes the lessons are painful, though. :faceshot:
_


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## savvystables

*Done with Parelli*

After many attempts to settle with Parelli, I've decided to head out Tuesday to Pagosa Springs, Colorado and file a civil suit against Parelli...


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## tinyliny

Hollysjubilee,

are you quoting someone? I mean the italics made me wonder if that was a quote.


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## hollysjubilee

tinyliny said:


> Hollysjubilee,
> 
> are you quoting someone? I mean the italics made me wonder if that was a quote.


I love cursive, and the italics is the closest I can get in the fonts offered, but I was asked to not write in italics on the forum, so I haven't been using them in my most recent posts.

The concept of Anger being based in fear isn't a quote, but is something I learned from Susan Heitler's book.

The statement, which is often incorrectly quoted, about the "love of money being the root of all evil," is a paraphrase from Scripture: 

_For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows. I Timothy 6:10_

It's such a temptation to get caught up in the material things, and it seems that no matter how much we have, we always want more and better . . . and no matter how much money we have, we can always find something to spend it on. It's a noble thing to see folks (I guess Taylor Swift just did this) give freely from what they have to others in need, and it's even more noble to see people who look to have nothing and who are willing to share even from the little they have to help others. My son was so touched by the generosity of the people he worked with in the Dominican Republic. He said, "Mom, these people live in shacks and have almost nothing to eat, but they would invite us into their homes and want to feed us!" We can learn a lot from that kind of generosity.


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## gee50

savvystables said:


> After many attempts to settle with Parelli, I've decided to head out Tuesday to Pagosa Springs, Colorado and file a civil suit against Parelli...


Good luck with your suit. I support your efforts, G


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## Textan49

hollysjubilee said:


> _Yes, we are all of those things and more! . . . and it seems that as we get into greater positions of leadership the temptations come harder and faster, and we often forget to SERVE others. We succumb to the temptation of wanting even more control and more service FROM others. (I'm reminded of government officials, too . . . "public servants." ahem)
> 
> I have watched several of the nationally known/world known trainers over the years. Each started out dedicated to helping others with their horses, and from what I observed exhibit a true love for the horse. As the business grows, they spend more . . . so they need more money . . . so they buy more and bigger and hire more people . . . and need more money . . . and besides succumbing to the adoration of starstruck groupies, at some point greed can hijack their once honest aim of achieving their Dream.
> 
> Greed is ugly as it morphs and disfigures the happy desire to have more of the good things we see around us. Unfortunately, Greed is born of fear-- __fear of not having what one wants or of losing what one has (Anger, too, as is discussed in THE POWER OF TWO by Susan Heitler) and fear is never attractive. Isn't that what we want to train out of horses and out of ourselves? We see the fear come out when people and horses are abused, and it shocks us when we see it in one of our mentors, but it shouldn't shock us. They are just people like us. I'm often reminded that MONEY is *not* the root of all evil, but the LOVE of money is the root of all evil, because when one loves money more than anything else, ruthlessness and cruelty anger and destruction follow. Not only is there destruction of one's original hopes and dreams, but destruction of relationships and reputations.
> 
> Learning how to handle the temptation and recognize it for what it is, will keep us on track or put us back on track after a painful fall.
> 
> I feel proud of the clinicians who exhibit humility and courage and make it through that struggle with temptation every day and rise above the arrogance and greed to become wiser and stronger in their original focus of helping people help their horses.
> 
> I don't know Pat Parelli, yet I've detected arrogance from the start. He's just human and can learn like anyone else. Let's hope he does. We all know that Old Horses CAN learn new tricks. Sometimes the lessons are painful, though. :faceshot:
> _


 I agree about the love of money rather than the money itself and often ask when is having some money enough. Unfortunately the idea that "more and bigger is always better" has taken over. The corner hardware store cannot compete with Home Depot and is phased out. I really don't know what the original intention of people like Pat Parelli was but somehow they ended up going the "bigger is better" route. Now it is the business itself that is in control and not the founder. Right along with having the desire for money is having one for power and recognition. It is not too hard to see how that fits into the picture either.


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## hollysjubilee

Textan49 said:


> I agree about the love of money rather than the money itself and often ask when is having some money enough. Unfortunately the idea that "more and bigger is always better" has taken over. The corner hardware store cannot compete with Home Depot and is phased out. I really don't know what the original intention of people like Pat Parelli was but somehow they ended up going the "bigger is better" route. Now it is the business itself that is in control and not the founder. Right along with having the desire for money is having one for power and recognition. It is not too hard to see how that fits into the picture either.


Yes . . . and we all have temptations and choices, and Life teaches us about priorities as we navigate the obstacles and learn, sometimes painfully, how to focus on the most important things. It's a process that takes a lifetime . . . 
Learning how to "give to pressure" from our "Master Trainer" is one of the hardest things any of us has to learn, whether we're in a position of leadership or serving at the local McDonald's. 
"Good judgment comes from experience, and most of that comes from bad judgment.":neutral:


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## ConnieO

Savvystable, I too wish you the best with your civil suit with your business with Parelli Inc. I would suspect there are others who have gone before you doing that as well. Were you able to find out anything about previous suits filed against Parelli Inc similar to yours? It could give you some insight and support for your case.

You know, during my years as an active Parelli student (before 2009) I watched my instructor twist in the wind keeping up with all the business changes in the company, so that it was not so much what Pat himself wanted but what the principals of the corporation wanted the instructors to do as partners in the franchise. Franchise is the key word here. My instructor was one of the lucky ones who had the financial backing, time and put in the hard work to make it through. I think now she is finally a five star instructor and teaches new instructors at Pagosa in addition to her own clinic schedule at her ranch. 

My opinion is that for someone who wants to be an official Parelli instructor it's a really slipperly slope because it is a business partnership (franchise) first before it is about helping folks with their horses. Sad hard truth for some to hear because it takes a lot to keep the balance of keeping up with the franchise corporation demands and being someone good with horses to help people with horses (which I suspect is all most wannabe instructors really care about, and I don't blame them  )! I don't see how an individual could even possibly do that alone without some sort of support from family or friends (financial and emotional).


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