# Boz Saddles?



## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

evilamc;1970645579
Their website is kind of terrible...[/QUOTE said:


> :rofl: but I fully agree with you on that one!
> 
> When I was on the search for a new saddle I stumbled over Boz saddles as well. But their advertising turned me off big time and some of the owner's comments to questions and critiques (very condescending and rude, aka how do you dare questioning my product, you know _nothing_ about riding, horses and saddle fit - aimed to very clearly experienced people) convinced me that I am not willing to spend my money there...
> 
> ...


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

I have ridden in endurance-style Boz saddles a few times over the years.. older saddles I assume have plain old fixed trees. This new flex tree is an interesting concept.. kind of like a cross between a treeless and a treed saddle. I have to wonder if it would be as flexible once it was actually IN a saddle.. and if it being less flexible is a good or bad thing.


I have heard stories that the owner has a strong personality..


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Yeahhhh, their facebook page is a tad scary, the owners responses to some negative reviews. 

I don't actually have any issues with my Ez-Fit Treeless saddles but these saddles just seem so interesting. I switched to treeless because I was struggling finding a saddle that fit, I don't have sore backs but I never feel like my weight is distributed as much as it would be in a tree'ed saddle. My horses started gaiting so much better when we switched to treeless, so I've been terrified to switch to something else.

From his claims, its still flexible once your in the saddle so it moves with the horses back, but my concern there is what about the weight of the rider? Is it rigid enough to not flex down into the horses back where you're sitting? I'm not extremely over weight but I flucuate between 160-170...so I'm also not the skinniest rider ever. It just looks so interesting to me, I wish they could show what happens when weight is in it though.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

I actually emailed the owner to ask a few questions and offering to help with his website LOL! We'll see what kind of response I get. If he flips out on me for being honest and trying to offer help then theres no way I could ever give him any of my money for a saddle....if I came to the conclusion his saddle was good for me that is.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The thing that bothers me about the flexible saddles is the same that bothers me about treeless saddles. If it flexes just right for a certain weight, how could it flex just right for a different weight.

That's what led me to a treeless saddle with custom fit rigid bars in the panel. Then the weight is distributed equally for different rider weights. And if one horse shoulder is bigger, that bar/panel will just ride higher.

But no manufacturers are making one.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Strong personality....lol...some of us call him curaaazeee!!


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

LOL! Right? He seems a bit cray cray.

Stonewalls "Living Bar" saddle seems interesting too. Its pretty new so I don't think there is many reviews out on it yet.






https://www.stonewallsaddles.com/


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I'd only seen the 'treeless'(effectively just a pad with pommel & cantle), but when I saw this thread went & checked them out. They do look interesting. As do those 'living bars'. Thanks for sharing Evil, tho I have no personal experience with this type of saddle at all. I too have 'gone treeless' after sooo many probs trying to fit conventional saddles, and a number of different shaped horses to fit. I'm currently getting a... semi flexible, could we say? saddle made to my specs, which is based on a (good) treeless design, but with a basic English style adjustable gullet tree as well, to better distribute weight. The aim is it will be able to be used with or without the tree and adjustable enough, not just at the gullet plate, to allow me to use on (almost) any horse.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Ohh Loosie, that sounds really interesting! Whos making it for you? 

Stonewall has WAY better customer service. They've been sharing pressure map videos lately too and they look really good. The saddle is so expensive though! I'd love to see pressure map info on the Boz. Both saddles look so cool.

I don't know, I barely even ride right now so it seems silly to even be looking at saddles and I do LOVE my current saddles but I'm always just worried about my weight being distributed well enough. We sometimes have dry spots under my seat, no soreness....but it upsets me. Lol maybe I just need to somehow rent some type of pressure mat thing to test my treeless saddles!


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

I just shared some trail with a gentleman in Carolina who was riding in one of those living-bar stonewalls (as I was riding in an old school one, ironically!). He had been riding most of the season in it and said so far his horse seemed to be doing well with it and he had no complaints. 



I find it amusing that the new stonewalls look so much like Pandoras now, as the Pandora is a knock-off of the original stonewall design!


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Ohhhh I didn't know Pandoras were a knock-off the original Stonewall, thats funny! I wonder if they secretly work together lol! Pandoras just don't look very comfy to me, they are cool looking though.

Nice to hear hes liking his, they're still so new so you can't find too many reviews on them yet. About every actual review on Boz saddles is good...but then you read the reviews about the owner LOL....NOT SO GOOD!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Getting them made in India - have finally found a supplier who can deliver quality products AND not 'sweatshop' type employer...

Oh wow, yeah, Boz Saddlery's site is AWEFUL! That's not doing them any favours!


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

@evilamc, if you want to have your own "pressure" map pad, make yourself a Carola impression pad. Easy to make, easy to use. Yes, probably not as accurate as real one, but it will give you a good idea about pressure points.



https://blackestofallcreatures.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/diy-saddle-impression-pad-the-carola-pad/


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Ohh I've seen people making home made ones! I should try that.


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

I made one last week - just haven't ridden with it yet...


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I am skeptical of flex trees......especially of the first type shown. It looks VERY soft.....and I don't mean that as a compliment, but rather that I think it wouldn't offer enough stability. For me anyway.

The reason I say that is I owned a flex tree for a short time. It was made by Reinsman and the quality was beautiful. But I felt like it was rolly-polly when mounting. I couldn't hardly mount from the ground. And I've seen riders in Circle Y flex trees have the same problem. Maybe it would be great if your horse had great withers to help hold that saddle in place, but mine did not. Problem #2 I had with my Reinsman flex tree was that it really hurt my back. I don't know if it was the flex in the tree that did it, or if it was just the posture the seat put me in. But ultimately no matter how beautiful it looked I couldn't ride in it because it gave me back pain. Now maybe that's just me, because as far as I know, the lady that bought it from me loves it.

The Stonewall living bar saddle looks like a new take on Ortho Flex. Remember them? They had flexing panels and from what I heard you still had pressure points where the bars connected and you weren't in very close contact with the horse because of the gap between the panels and the rigid part of the tree.

I don't know if either of those issues would be a problem with the Stonewall. Actually, if I were rich and could order a saddle just to try, I would love to try one out. It looks really intriguing! But alas, I will stick to the wooden treed saddle I have until I win the lottery. :wink:


Oh, you know what I find the most exciting about the Stonewall? The adjustable seat size. I have NEVER seen that before and I really think it's awesome!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

SwissMiss said:


> @*evilamc* , if you want to have your own "pressure" map pad, make yourself a Carola impression pad. Easy to make, easy to use. Yes, probably not as accurate as real one, but it will give you a good idea about pressure points.
> 
> 
> 
> https://blackestofallcreatures.wordpress.com/2017/02/21/diy-saddle-impression-pad-the-carola-pad/



That is so very cool! I had never heard of that before. Does anyone know if potassium aluminum sulfate is something you can easily find in the USA?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

trailhorserider said:


> The reason I say that is I owned a flex tree for a short time. It was made by Reinsman and the quality was beautiful. But I felt like it was rolly-polly when mounting. I couldn't hardly mount from the ground. ...Maybe it would be great if your horse had great withers


...& then OUCH! for the withers! Yeah, like treeless saddles, lack of stability & ability to mount from the ground is a common issue. But then, effects on a horse's body have shown that we shouldn't be mounting from the ground if it entails putting much weight on one side/in the stirrup anyway. Tho it's always handy to be ABLE to do so when needed...



> The Stonewall living bar saddle looks like a new take on Ortho Flex.


That was my thought. The Pandora saddles look a bit different tho & if they're copies of the stonewall...



> Oh, you know what I find the most exciting about the Stonewall? The adjustable seat size. I have NEVER seen that before and I really think it's awesome!


Yeah, I don't know why they don't make them. Mine that I'm having made will have adjustable cantle as well as stirrup placement, knee blocks, etc.


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## SwissMiss (Aug 1, 2014)

trailhorserider said:


> That is so very cool! I had never heard of that before. Does anyone know if potassium aluminum sulfate is something you can easily find in the USA?


It's needed to pickle food (older recipes), so easily to find either in store or online. I got it on amazon.
The consistency in the end is really like play doh and I used leftover plastic sheets from painting to make the pad.


As I said, I haven't ridden in it yet (thanks to copious amounts of rain), but will report back :biggrin:


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I've watched the living bar video in the past and what bothers me about it is fitting the rock or dip in the horse's back. The briefly mention it can fit different rocks/dips but with the rigid seat above, I can't see how it can conform to different rocks.

Also, the tubes in the panel are straight where the horse's back is curved. But that said, a rigid tree western saddle has the bottom of the bars curved opposite to the curvature of the horse's back, so I reckon straight would be better. English saddles of course are flocked to the curvature of the back.

But how the living bar conforms to the rock is still puzzling to me.

I finally tried mounting from the ground the other day using a soft lead rope around the off fore leg and it worked really well. Hondo did not seem to mind at all so I plan to make or buy a permanent set up for when nature does not provide a mounting block within walking distance.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

It's an updated version of the old Calvary McClellan saddle. Using pretty colors and new flexible composite materials. As far as weight distribution for a heavier rider, that would depend on how heavy and the shape of the horses' back. Because it has a somewhat oval shape, I would be concerned with how much of the riders weight gets spread around the frame. Seems like the horse could end up with numerous sore areas.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I sent an email asking how the rock/dip was fit to the horse with the rigid seating piece.

I thought yall might be interested in the detailed reply.

Pasted Email Response:

Hi, Interesting saddle! The one thing that puzzles me is how it will conform to differing rocks under the rigid seat structure.

......................................................................................................................................................................................

Thanks for considering a Stonewall Saddle with Living Bar® technology.

For practical reasons we set the Rock Rail on the Chassis at "average R3/R6" based on database of horse back measurements gleaned over the years from Dennis Lane Equine Card Measuring System. We have found that horses change the sway/rock of their backs all the time depending upon carriage and habits and if they are head high or low, being ridden or not, collected or not and we learned from making custom rigid trees that you could drive yourself crazy trying to hit dead accurate and the returns were not apparent or worth the effort so within a mid range group of horses we would make no changes to Rock, but if the horse deviated significantly - flatter or more dropped - then we would take action and compensate accordingly. 

Now with the Living Bars®, because the bar surface morphs to match the cross sections of the horse so intimately and sharing the load, any Rock discrepancies are minimized and this is being borne out with pressure mapping results. The Live mapping shows the pressures distributed over the bar footprint and moving about as the horse and rider move, and illustrates that trying to fit a perfect capture moment in time is moot. What we do see with the Living Bar is that those pressures stay below critical levels ie no hot spots.

We do have shaped "LIFTS" - adding Rock, or flattening - that can be manually inserted into pocket on bar top to change the shape of the Rock Rail for those few equines that really need it. This is why I say the saddle will fit essentially any horse, but there are exceptions and those can be accommodated with some hands on adjustments.

Feel free to contact me with more questions.

Jackie Fenaroli, BSME
President
Stonewall Saddle Company
462 N. Scovell Avenue, Suite A1
San Jacinto, CA 92582
USA

951-834-5844
[email protected]


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

@Hondo Ha thanks for emailing them! I've been seeing on their facebook they are compensating for some horses backs with wedges. The pressure mapping does look very promising though. The fact that Boz wont do the pressure mapping makes me more nervous about them.
@trailhorserider The adjustable seat on the stonewall is super cool too isn't it! My Ez-Fit's have adjustable seats, I do love that feature. Actually most of my friends are able to mount from the ground with them too. I blame being short/kind of plump and having bad knees for not being able to ground mount. I only need like 3-4" to be able to mount though so I've never really had trouble finding SOMETHING to use to be able to get back in the saddle on the trail. Butttt if I try with no help then yeah, saddle usually rolls. I just can't get over the center of gravity fast enough to keep it from rolling LOL! I use really nice wool felt pads and like I said, I haven't had any soreness with my treeless saddles.....but the Boz looks so cool but the more I look into it the less real info I find? The Stonewall has actual data of it doing what they say it does which I've been enjoying following. We both just need to win the lottery so we can afford one though!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hondo said:


> Also, the tubes in the panel are straight where the horse's back is curved. But that said, a rigid tree western saddle has the bottom of the bars curved opposite to the curvature of the horse's back,


Ah, will go watch the vid now. I understood that it conformed too, although yeah, don't get how any of these, 'flexi tree' or treeless flex just enough but not too much... But when you talk of 'rigid western trees' do you mean the bars are convex from end to end? I'm sure there are some terrible ones that do this, but IME they are slightly concave to (try to) match the horse's back, just like an English(it's not just the flocking).


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## Rawhide (Nov 11, 2011)

Has anyone seen a competitor using a Boz saddle in the current running NFR ? (2018)


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

After reading the response to my question on the rock, I thought about my experience in forming custom fit bars for Hondo. While there may be a significant "dip" down the center of the spine in the saddle fit section, along the latissimus muscle in the saddle fit area there is very little dip or rock.

The twist on the bar is the most important and if that's not right it can compound an incorrect dip. Since the living bar always has the correct bar twist, I believe that may be what she was saying when she said the design accommodated somewhat for dip. And that's a good thing since she pointed out the dip is never right anyhow except in a moment in time.

I'm going to ask about the length for short or long backs. I'll visit the Facebook page first and check there.

@loosie That is called a crown on the western tree. The following link talks a lot about the crown fitting the horse but there are no saddle makers that do that. I did with the bars formed to Hondo's back model. But they were still almost flat in cross section. I'd like to play with one of the living bars. It may be that when adjacent bars change in twist the material they are inserted into allows a curved conformation to the horse. Having a hard time visualizing what would happen.

Here's the site with the western bars. Need to scroll down a ways. THE SADDLE


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## QueenofFrance08 (May 16, 2017)

I've seen A LOT of debate on the Boz Saddles on Endurance groups. People who love them, really love them. People who hate them, really hate them. The biggest complaint I see about the Boz Saddles is the stirrup position and how it puts the rider in a bad position.

I've only seen good so far about the new Stonewall's. They haven't really been out long enough to get a good idea though but people generally seem to like them! I have a friend (with a much higher budget than me!) that is looking into one for her super hard to fit mare. She's also looking at Reactor Panels, one of the mother/daughter teams in our area with many years of endurance experience just switched all of their horses to those and swear by them. The daughter (she's grown, my age) is actually becoming a certified rep for them right now.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Well, Stonewall said it.....”you could drive yourself crazy...”!! Why I just use my BMSS and don’t worry about it! LOL.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

More info...............


Hi

Our bars are 20" long tip to tip. And just like treed saddles you will place the saddle so that the bars tips are just behind the horses shoulder. This works well for the majority of horse and riders. We can make a bigger footprint on the bar if needed, either for a bigger rider or for a horse that is long from shoulder to low point of back but that would be an exceptional case. 

In designing the Chassis, we kept the spread between the bars generous to accommodate a wide horse, such as a Haflinger without issue and the Living Bars will morph to match the shape of the horse and have fit many "well fleshed horses" without issue so I would expect the same for your boy. There is a 30 day trial period on all saddles so that you may check for yourself. 

Best regards,


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## katatak (Jun 14, 2018)

Wow, does nobody else note the extreme, fundamental shape change/ridge about one third down the length of the tree, following the extreme twists he applied? That "ridge" or bump remained throughout the video! Also, in the initial stages of the video he displays how much the tree can flex, when the back of the saddle is held stationary or when the front is held. Note the effort required by him to hold those ends, in order to facilitate the flex. Under what natural circumstances would that force occur?

I'm most definitely not saying that there is no merit in the concept, just that this video seems like an exercise to discredit the idea!


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## lgn007 (Sep 8, 2019)

RE: the Boz saddle. I've had many treed and treeless saddles over the years. My "go to" saddle had been a Bob Marshall since it fit virtually every horse I've owned. I weigh about 170lbs and I've found no problems with sore backs on any of my horses using this saddle. For this reason I've been an advocate of the Bob Marshall saddles for many years. I'm aware of the many different opinions of the pros and cons of treeless saddles and I'm of the opinion of; use whatever floats your boat. You'll get no argument from me.



Now, about the Boz Saddle... My favorite horse to ride is a mutton-backed Arabian. I've had him for many years and my treeless saddles just won't stay straight on his back. Also, mounting is difficult since the saddle slips badly the second I put any weight on the stirrup. For this reason I started a diligent search a few years ago for a saddle that was light, had good contact and would give me some tree-like support. I ran across the Boz website and I concur with all the comments about it's interesting design and many of the comments about the owner. He does come across as a bit of the Mad Scientist. However, the saddle is amazing! I have an engineering/physiology background so the science behind the saddle made a lot of sense to me. The proof or course is always in the pudding.


I must admit that this saddle is amazing. It's comfortable, light, has good contact, is well made and works exactly as advertised. It fits my mutton-backed Arabian as well as an old swayed-backed quarter horse. Never a sore back and it stays put. I honestly believe the only problem with this saddle is the marketing. The inventor should stick to inventing and he should hire out the marketing. It may be a moot point, however. My guess is the owner will retire and this saddle will, in a decade, be remembered as a great saddle that never caught on,


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Pampas saddles have a flexible plastic tree. I have a Tekna saddle and I believe that has a plastic tree but I'm not entirely certain. The website says synthetic tree.


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## starbuster (Jul 10, 2019)

I have no experience with the saddles, but his Facebook page is full of very unprofessional behavior on behalf of the owner (I remember seeing something awhile back where he was using a minor's photo without permission and I believe said negative things about her riding because she wasn't using his saddle? I don't remember the details, but there was a huge stink about it) and I find some of his claims to be a bit wild. 

I guess he has a reputation for insulting and calling his customers names, and not being able to take any criticism whatsoever. That rubs me the wrong way, honestly.


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## HNS (Sep 12, 2020)

Reviving an old thread, but considering my mom bought a Boz kit saddle about 10 years ago, I have plenty of experience with the saddle. As I generally ride dressage, I don't know western lingo, just FYI. 

I primarily have used it for trail riding on gaited mules, and mules can be hard to fit. The mules love this saddle, and have never had sore backs. Full disclosure, I am a plus size rider, and have ridden 5 or 6 hours a days in the mountains in this saddle, and the mules backs are fine. I find it reasonably comfortable as well. I have used it on a few of the dressage horses on trail rides; draft crosses, holsteiner, friesian sport horse, and none of them have gotten sore. Additionally, they all move out well with the Boz saddle, and seem to really like it. The horses don't dance around at all when being saddled up, and a couple of them are really picky about saddle fit. So I can definitely say the saddle fits 14 HH mules to 17 HH friesian crosses with only changing out the girth. We use the Boz saddle with a diamond wool endurance pad and a toklat fleece girth, and that system has worked beautifully. 

I agree that the website design is wretched, and not doing the company any favors. I believe the original owner's daughter (Ann) is basically running the company now. I have emailed her a couple of times in the last few years, and she has responded promptly and professionally with Customer Service assistance. Personally, I have not had any experience at all with the original owner.

Boz saddles do come with a lot of options, and would be confusing for inexperienced equestrians. (As a lifelong Engish rider, I get confused, tbh). But the saddle has certainly served us and our equines well. My mom says that she would definitely buy it again.


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