# Conformation critique??



## tinkerbell02 (Apr 2, 2017)

I want to buy this horse but before I pay to have a professional look at him I want to see if you guys have any pointers or anything  thanks!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

more info needed. breed? age? height? background? and do you have any better photos?


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## tinkerbell02 (Apr 2, 2017)

He's 8 years. He doesn't have much of a background other than a girl bought him and he was too much horse so he's being sold. He's trained all around. He's about 15 hh. I don't have the best pictures because I didn't have any help and his leg is cocked in each one but I'll send a couple more. He's an appy x twh cross. (My opinion is definitely biased but he's the cutest ?)


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Those photos are a bit tricky, the only thing I can say is he possibly seems built quite downhill. 
What do you want to use him for? Do you know what the issues were with him being "too much horse?" 
That could mean anything from bucking and rearing to just trotting faster than someone prefers.

Horses with pink noses can have issues with sunburn or sensitive skin. Some horses I've known needed sunblock or zinc oxide applied daily in the summer, even in the Pacific NW. One horse I know with pink skin has a lot of difficulty with bits, some of the types of metal and curb straps will rub and cause abrasions around his mouth.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

You really need better pictures and more information than just "8 years old and trained"....
Why was he not suitable for a rider if he is "trained" and what does he do if he is "to much horse"....
All of those words are double-edged swords with a lot of interpretation availability...

As for build...
Well, butt high is a understatement!
15 hands??? Really? He looks slightly _not_ synced with body balance in his "poses".
His pink nose....well, let me tell you if he was by me {Florida} I would surely pass.
Pink sunburns.... and NOT just their nose but the entire body. Prepare for a fly sheet with UVA & UVB protection at all times worn...then prepare for rot and skin issues if you have humidity & heat & sun to deal with.

I think there are so many really nice horses/ponies available today that buying a known problem animal doesn't have to be....
This horse strikes me as problems in soundness in the near future with his build forget saddle issues, and ever being "light" in the front end when ridden if he is truly that severely downhill in conformation...
Cute would wear thin real fast if he comes with issues like he may have...

Unless you get pictures and information otherwise refuting this you have posted currently...
_I would pass based on what I see and minimal you wrote of him..._
Sorry...
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo.._


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I need to clarify my first post.....
Based upon the second picture you posted....
_I would pass on this horse.

_Then you posted a couple more pictures where his "butt high" is not so exaggerated....
Now why he appeared so out of proportion of butt to wither is baffling...
That horse in the one later picture has possibilities...

You do though need more information as to why a "trained" horse was not suitable a match for his owner...
Bad habit, dangerous habit, to far advanced in his training for the rider, so many things it could be and you don't want nor need a headache...

As for the latter pictures... they still leave much to be desired for a real critique.
His legs look not right but I can't tell you what it is or why from these photos...
And as "cute" as you think he is... 
Cute can wear thin if he is not a willing riding partner for you.
Make really sure you want* this horse* for the right reasons not just "because he is cute"...
:runninghorse2:....


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## tinkerbell02 (Apr 2, 2017)

He just tested his previous rider a lot. She was a beginner and didn't want to take lessons and he could just tell she didn't know what she was doing. I've been working with him and we get along really well. We have mutual respect and he doesn't spook much. I'm only a week into the process so I haven't ridden him yet but I'm going to work with him in two days and I'm going to ask her to ride him for me. So far, he's a good horse. And I really do apologize for the pictures. His stall is slightly slanted. I tried to get the best I could, but like I said before, I didn't have anyone to help. The only problem I've had with him is one time I had him get away from me but we worked it out and now he respects me much more lol. So far no behavioral issues, no bad habits, he doesn't have any "no don't touch me there" spots, and he's impressively trained from what I've worked with him on the ground. He did buck when I first took him out but he never gets out and once we got working, he calmed down and listened. Thank you for your help so far though!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

tinkerbell02 said:


> He just tested his previous rider a lot. She was a beginner and didn't want to take lessons and he could just tell she didn't know what she was doing. I've been working with him and we get along really well. We have mutual respect and he doesn't spook much.
> That all sounds great.
> 
> Then I got to this part:
> I'm only a week into the process so I haven't ridden him yet but I'm going to work with him in two days and I'm going to ask her to ride him for me. So far, he's a good horse.


To be respectfully honest, you have no idea if he's a good horse or not under saddle. I've seen horses that were great on the ground and not good under saddle. And I've seen horses that were touchy or had a temper on the ground and rode awesome. So you really have no idea how he will ride for you until you've ridden him.

I won't speak much about his conformation because the pictures don't show him square and I've take enough photos of my own horses to know that if you get the angle wrong, you can make a good horse look bad or vice versa. So I don't even know if he's really downhill. That one picture makes him look really downhill, but I've take enough photos of my own horses to know that's easy to do if you get the angle wrong.

The pink skin personally doesn't worry me too much. I had a Paint that was mostly white and he never sunburned anywhere except a little on his nose. And I never even used sunscreen on him. Some horses might be more sensitive than others, but some are not. My Paint was not. And I live in Arizona, LOTS of sun practically every day of the year. What I would do is make sure you have a good fly mask on him to block some of the sun to his eyes. Because pink skin around the eyes is prone to cancer. But that is the main thing I would worry about with his skin and keeping a fly mask on him should help. 

So I guess I wouldn't let the pink skin and the conformation (which is probably better than the pictures make him look) discourage me. What would discourage me is his behavior under saddle, if it is questionable. And you don't know that until you ride him a time or two or three. Just make sure you don't have the same issues as the old owner. Being over-horsed takes the fun out of riding!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

PS. If that is what his breeding is, he might have a gait. :smile:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree that those pictures don't work for conformation evaluation, beyond seeing he is somewhat downhill at least, has a neck that ties in low, but on the positive, has good bone, and a desent shopulder angle
Hard to tell if he might be a few spot, or a grey. If grey, sunburn is not much of an issue, but is in a few spot, as unlike greys, they don't have pigmented skin under those white hairs
I am led to believe he is most likely grey, versus a few spot, as he can't be homozygous for the LP complex,being a cross. Check and see if he has areas of pigmented skin, which will be all over, if he was solid, or, still in where he had coat markings
If he does have pigmented skin, I would pass on him being grey alone, but that is just me!


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## tinkerbell02 (Apr 2, 2017)

Yeah. My plan is to have her ride him first, if she refuses then obviously something's up. I don't want to sound like I'm buying him right now. I'm taking my time. I go to the barn and work with him almost every day, we're taking our time. I'm definitely riding him a couple of times first. We're slowly working it out, I'm not in a rush at all. Every time I ride him, we'll be in an enclosed arena with my trainer right there in case an issue arises. If we decide to become more serious I might try him on a simple trail and see how he responds. I'm sorry I didn't pack that all in the first one, I didn't want to make it too long. I AM being sensible about this and I do know all the motions. I was just hoping for some pointers. So far I've lunged him a lot and just done basic little educational games to keep it fun. He's really calm (he stood quietly next to me while the hay truck drove in the arena, it was really loud and echoed but he stayed with me and remained respectful) and within the second day of work together, I did the hook up with him and I plan on free lunging him as soon as I can reserve the arena. The farthest I've gotten with him is putting weight on his back and he's accepted it just fine and I've put my leg up as if to jump on him and nothing negative so far. She also has put her toddler on his back and he calmly walks around and is very conscious of his rider. This Saturday I'm going to a group lesson and taking Peter (the horse) with me for extra time to get used to each other. I'll tell you guys how it goes if you'd like to help me out some more? Thanks for everything so far!


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## NavigatorsMom (Jan 9, 2012)

tinkerbell02 said:


> Yeah. My plan is to have her ride him first, if she refuses then obviously something's up. I don't want to sound like I'm buying him right now. I'm taking my time. I go to the barn and work with him almost every day, we're taking our time. I'm definitely riding him a couple of times first. We're slowly working it out, I'm not in a rush at all. Every time I ride him, we'll be in an enclosed arena with my trainer right there in case an issue arises. If we decide to become more serious I might try him on a simple trail and see how he responds. I'm sorry I didn't pack that all in the first one, I didn't want to make it too long. I AM being sensible about this and I do know all the motions. I was just hoping for some pointers. So far I've lunged him a lot and just done basic little educational games to keep it fun. He's really calm (he stood quietly next to me while the hay truck drove in the arena, it was really loud and echoed but he stayed with me and remained respectful) and within the second day of work together, I did the hook up with him and I plan on free lunging him as soon as I can reserve the arena. The farthest I've gotten with him is putting weight on his back and he's accepted it just fine and I've put my leg up as if to jump on him and nothing negative so far. *She also has put her toddler on his back and he calmly walks around and is very conscious of his rider.* This Saturday I'm going to a group lesson and taking Peter (the horse) with me for extra time to get used to each other. I'll tell you guys how it goes if you'd like to help me out some more? Thanks for everything so far!


So the person who is selling because the horse is too much for her has also put a toddler on the horse? If I had a horse that I didn't feel safe or totally comfortable on, I certainly wouldn't put a child that young on it, even to be led around. Seems a little unusual to me...

Could be that horse has something else going on, and she might be selling him as not a good match to cover up something else? Just a thought, I am probably looking too far into it. 

It would be nice to get an update after you've ridden him, you might find him to be completely different than what you expected. And if you're there with other people you could probably get some better conformation shots too, if you want better judgement/opinions from us here.


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## tinkerbell02 (Apr 2, 2017)

NavigatorsMom said:


> tinkerbell02 said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah. My plan is to have her ride him first, if she refuses then obviously something's up. I don't want to sound like I'm buying him right now. I'm taking my time. I go to the barn and work with him almost every day, we're taking our time. I'm definitely riding him a couple of times first. We're slowly working it out, I'm not in a rush at all. Every time I ride him, we'll be in an enclosed arena with my trainer right there in case an issue arises. If we decide to become more serious I might try him on a simple trail and see how he responds. I'm sorry I didn't pack that all in the first one, I didn't want to make it too long. I AM being sensible about this and I do know all the motions. I was just hoping for some pointers. So far I've lunged him a lot and just done basic little educational games to keep it fun. He's really calm (he stood quietly next to me while the hay truck drove in the arena, it was really loud and echoed but he stayed with me and remained respectful) and within the second day of work together, I did the hook up with him and I plan on free lunging him as soon as I can reserve the arena. The farthest I've gotten with him is putting weight on his back and he's accepted it just fine and I've put my leg up as if to jump on him and nothing negative so far. *She also has put her toddler on his back and he calmly walks around and is very conscious of his rider.* This Saturday I'm going to a group lesson and taking Peter (the horse) with me for extra time to get used to each other. I'll tell you guys how it goes if you'd like to help me out some more? Thanks for everything so far!
> ...


I'm sorry I didn't clarify!!! The woman who owns him now got him from the girl. The girl was in WAHSET, he was more experienced and she refused to take lessons so they let his current owner train him when the girl got Peter back, she hadn't done her end of the work so they just gave him to his current owner. The owner has over 30 horses and wants to slim down to only a couple so she's selling most of her horses. The girl who couldn't handle him was green and caused an issue. Now he was completely retrained using patience and natural horsemanship so that's why the toddler gets ponied around often. That's was on me, I'm sorry. Yeah I'll try and keep updated! I'm thinking of making a small YouTube to keep track of my videos. Nothin big just for the few of you that are helping me out. Thanks!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OK well "difficult" or not aside all I can say is that the fuss about him being dramatically downhill based on pic 2 is NOT accurate. He is clearly standing unevenly on a slope with the camera neither perpendicular nor level....he's halfway facing it! Downhill he may or may not be but it wouldn't be enough to worry me at all.

While those pictures are NOT good for conformation (none of them sorry!) I can see that he's decent all around and nothing alarming jumps out at me. Agree he looks a little shorter but that's largely irrelevant lol.

My main concern is his color... I do not think he is grey but you can wet him down if you're curious. As said he's not a fewspot... I almost think he is truly white, which is pretty cool/unusual. I would definitely be prepared for sunburn but a) it's really not common for a horse to sunburn under the hair no matter how white, yes I'm sure a very sensitive horse in a very sunny location may but it's not the rule by any stretch.. so just worried about his face but shouldn't be hard to manage and some are more sensitive than others, he may not need much at all and b) you're in Washington not FL....'nough said XD I would have his eyes checked as well as pink skin around the eyes is not ideal. Appys tend to have eye issues (though I think that's linked to the Lp gene?.. Smilie?) so wouldn't hurt to rule it out.

Aside- not grey due to lack of any visible dark skin (all facial skin, his sheath and to all appearances under his coat are pure white) and grey isn't super common in either of those breeds. He could still be grey hiding under a lot of white, but I doubt it. Also at 8 it's unlikely a grey would be pure white, they usually have some color left or a few flea bites or something. Also while some people are afraid of melanomas most grey horses don't develop any and the ones that do it's rarely anything to worry about. It's not that grey horse = melanoma it's just more likely. The one in my avatar is 24 and doesn't have anything. I've worked with LOTS of greys and only one had melanomas. So it's just a judgement call.

But yes be aware of his color, get his eyes checked, and most importantly make sure he's the right horse beforehand... if he is there is nothing that can be seen from those pictures that would make me hesitant to go to the next step. I for one definitely don't see any sort of a "problem horse". If you're concerned get better pictures and ones from the other side but as I said he seems decent all around with no issues.. probably not your next Grand Prix mount but I think you could have quite a bit of fun with him.


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## tinkerbell02 (Apr 2, 2017)

Yogiwick said:


> OK well "difficult" or not aside all I can say is that the fuss about him being dramatically downhill based on pic 2 is NOT accurate. He is clearly standing unevenly on a slope with the camera neither perpendicular nor level....he's halfway facing it! Downhill he may or may not be but it wouldn't be enough to worry me at all.
> 
> While those pictures are NOT good for conformation (none of them sorry!) I can see that he's decent all around and nothing alarming jumps out at me. Agree he looks a little shorter but that's largely irrelevant lol.
> 
> ...


Thanks for understanding. I was kind of annoyed with all the sunburn talk where we are we don't have lots of direct sun anyways. His face is the only spot that's SUPER pink so I think I'm just gonna get him a fly mask. And I know my pictures are terrible haha but I was hoping to make sure there isn't anything that you just see and think "**** don't waste money on him" ya know? And yeah ? There was a lot of fuss about the whole downhill thing when it was kind of obvious that the angle and everything was off. Like I mentioned a bit earlier I'm planning on keeping updates with him. Thank you though! I appreciate all the help but your answer was the must useful haha


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Glad I was helpful! While not comparable to FL of course we do have plenty of sun here and I have literally never heard of a horse being sunburned anywhere other than the nose and have never seen that being severe. The horses I know with sunburn issues wear flymasks (often with the long nose) and get sunscreen and are just fine with that. I wouldn't be panicking about it. You also are able to work with him before you buy him so you'll be able to get a great idea of exactly what you're getting in to. My two white nosed horses get a little pink but not enough to need any care. I sunburn far worse than the horses do and I don't sunburn super easily. And while I can't say I've ever been to Washington myself but even on the east coast when we think Washington we do not think sun lol. Worst case scenario he gets night turnout...that's not too bad!

Unless extreme you must remember with conformation that no horse is perfect. I look for the important parts and anything extreme before anything else. I also try to mentally move the horse into a better position (ex-he has a wonky shoulder, so if his leg was in the proper position would it be bad? nah the angle would change to about here which is pretty nice) While those pictures aren't enough to give a real critique and nitpick, if a horse has any real issues that would effect soundness or anything they are pretty obvious even in the worst pictures. You also gave us several pictures to work with. You aren't asking if he's a breeding prospect or a top level show mount. Just is there anything huge that would be enough to rule him out before even considering him, answer to me is no. "Decent" may not say much, but sometimes that's all that needs to be said. There was a thread recently with a cute horse but horrible pictures. BUT in every single one of the pictures he had the same slight issues. While slight it was very obvious that they were definitely there when seen in every single one of various positions.

So rule out the important stuff and anything extreme and take the rest with a grain of salt. Even if downhill is that such a bad thing? You aren't looking to do anything extreme with him...many horses are BRED to be downhill. Anything is bad if it's extreme, yes if he was truly as butt high as he appears in that one picture I would be very concerned, but what does "slightly downhill" mean in your position? You don't want to buy a potential problem obviously but do you need a 10/10 horse? Or can you settle for a 6/10? You can nitpick any horse but the important stuff is pretty straightforward. While everything effects them sometimes it's only so relevant.

And when you have the vet out anyways they will be able to critique the horse in person and give you a much more detailed analysis based on your exact situation and exactly what they see conformation wise and overall. So as a general first impression which is all that is needed at this point I don't see any reason to balk. I actually quite like him. While I can't see enough to say his conformation is anything more than average I do suspect that it's actually quite nice overall. I see multiple things I really like and he's definitely my type (that sounds so silly to say but it's TOTALLY true, I definitely have a type haha).

Keep us updated on him! And yes, around here I would probably keep a mask on him year round just cause he's THAT white and I'd be a little worried about the eyes. It's definitely not going to hurt anything to be proactive.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Here's the other thread in case you're interested: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-conformation-critique/critique-possible-purchase-750562/


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## tinkerbell02 (Apr 2, 2017)

Yogiwick said:


> Here's the other thread in case you're interested: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-conformation-critique/critique-possible-purchase-750562/


Thank you once again! Yeah I'm not buying top of the line. Right now I'm looking for a horse I connect with well (we've already bonded a lot) since he will be MY first horse (I have years of experience, I'm just buying for the first time). Right now I ride recreationally so I'm not specifically looking for a flashy jumper prospect or a world champion Reiner, just a horse who works well with me . I've started him with serpentines and introduced him to barrels (I want to go into barrel racing/ gaming) and so far from our little ground games, he's taking to it pretty well. He's softened up in the neck a lot and he's paying attention to his feet. Since he's fat right now, he isn't going to be the fastest but we're taking baby steps. He seems to have potential to build up to that. (I can tell he's athletic. He's also super hardy, he had about a year where he just ran with the wild mustang herd on the old property) so I hope to start that soon.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I used to ride an Arab gelding with horrid conformation.... he was a retired Grand Prix dressage horse and at 30 with severe arthritis would prance and piaffe and pirouette. And I've worked with plenty of $$ mounts that while nice you couldn't pay me to take and plenty of cheap horses with great conformation. So don't worry about "not buying top of the line". It doesn't mean you can't buy a nice horse. I find it's all relative. A sound well built horse is a sound well built horse. When you get into money a lot of it is pedigree and show record moreso than the actual animal, that's the biggest difference and why you may buy an unborn foal for 50k.


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## NavigatorsMom (Jan 9, 2012)

tinkerbell02 said:


> I'm sorry I didn't clarify!!! The woman who owns him now got him from the girl. The girl was in WAHSET, he was more experienced and she refused to take lessons so they let his current owner train him when the girl got Peter back, she hadn't done her end of the work so they just gave him to his current owner. The owner has over 30 horses and wants to slim down to only a couple so she's selling most of her horses. The girl who couldn't handle him was green and caused an issue. Now he was completely retrained using patience and natural horsemanship so that's why the toddler gets ponied around often. That's was on me, I'm sorry. Yeah I'll try and keep updated! I'm thinking of making a small YouTube to keep track of my videos. Nothin big just for the few of you that are helping me out. Thanks!


Ah, see that makes more sense to me.  So he's been retrained, conformation doesn't seem to be a huge issue, I would say keep working with him, and once you do some riding you'll have a better idea of what you think of him. Looking forward to updates!


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## tinkerbell02 (Apr 2, 2017)

NavigatorsMom said:


> tinkerbell02 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sorry I didn't clarify!!! The woman who owns him now got him from the girl. The girl was in WAHSET, he was more experienced and she refused to take lessons so they let his current owner train him when the girl got Peter back, she hadn't done her end of the work so they just gave him to his current owner. The owner has over 30 horses and wants to slim down to only a couple so she's selling most of her horses. The girl who couldn't handle him was green and caused an issue. Now he was completely retrained using patience and natural horsemanship so that's why the toddler gets ponied around often. That's was on me, I'm sorry. Yeah I'll try and keep updated! I'm thinking of making a small YouTube to keep track of my videos. Nothin big just for the few of you that are helping me out. Thanks!
> ...


Okay! Thanks for your interest  I'll keep you guys updated! ((P.s. so I didn't know what liberty circles were before but now I do.. and when I was lunging him he was trotting with liberty circles after a while ? I thought he was just letting me be lazy but uh ? That's like pretty cool)


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