# Charro--Love it? Hate it? Don't know about it? State your op



## charroit (Jul 23, 2008)

Just wondering you guy's intake on the charro disipline


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## Filly213 (May 26, 2008)

lol sorry if i sound silly, but what's charro??


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## Rescue mom (Jul 26, 2008)

Charreria is the name of the traditional rodeo in Mexico. I think this is what Charroit is referring to. Similar to the rodeo in the states, there are various events involving horses, bovine and riders.

There are many variations, however, In stead of barrel racing, the women particate in a Drill type competition. They wear traditional dress and it is very impressive to watch their riding skills. 

Instead of calf roping and team penning, vaqueros (cowboys) give demonstrations of their rope handling skills, followed by an event where galloping horses are roped around their front legs, causing them to fall down. In the U.S. this is know as horse tripping and is very controversial.

There are also reining competitions involved and other types of western events.


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## charroit (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm talking more along the lines of showcasing the dancing/trick horses. 

Lol

There are diffrent types of charro, I like to train bailadores. (The dancing horses you see in parades, Mexican partys, or in compitition.) 
My hermosa dances, lays down, bows, does the spanish walk, and the piaffe. Which is a typical training in the charro industry. (Unless you use your horse for trail really) I just find the whole disipline really fun and exciting. 

Here's a little info from wiki on the rodeo's:
In Mexico, charro is a term referring to a traditional horseman or cowboy of Mexico, originating in the State of Jalisco. In the rest of Mexico, including the part that was annexed by the United States in 1848, the equivalent term was "vaquero". In Spain, a charro is a native of the province of Salamanca, especially in the area of Alba de Tormes, Vitigudino, Ciudad Rodrigo and Ledesma[1]. It is likely that the Mexican charro tradition derived from Spanish horsemen who came from Salamanca and settled in Jalisco.

The traditional Mexican charro is known for colorful clothing and participating in charreadas, a type of rodeo. The charreada, or corrida, is the national sport in Mexico. and is regulated by the Federación Mexicana de Charrería. There are more charros in the state of Jalisco than any other state in Mexico. Jalisco has also won more national championships than any other state.

XD Not to mention I love the Banda and Ranchero music XD Lol.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

I tried to look up what it was. Couldn't find anything significant. Would love to see some links to give my opinion on it.


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## charroit (Jul 23, 2008)

Here's my mare when we started out--She shows bothe her dances, the piaffe and the in air lead change which looks like a rear.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=EeuqMdo_FR8

Dancing horse in compitition

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mJw0YbvXcAY


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## Filly213 (May 26, 2008)

it sounds really interesting, i'd never heard of it before. so what breed of horses do you use?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The way they "train" the horses to "dance" is cruel. The horses have no idea what they're doing, they're just expected to move their feet, and that's all they're "trained" to do. There is no finesse of collection, no rhyme or rhythm to it, it's just ... I don't even know how to put words to it.
To train this movement, the "cowboys" cross-tie the horses in a small space, then wet their backs and haunches down, and whip them to make them "dance." There is no training up to this point, it's just grab and go.
That second video you posted, charriot, I have no idea what those "riders" were trying to make their horses do. The spin at the beginning had absolutely no pivot to it, the horse was just turning around fast. A true spin is when the horse rocks back onto its haunches and moves its forehand around the haunches. That horse was just terrified and running in a circle. 
Then that "piaffe" type looking thing.. that was a confused horse that was just moving its feet to keep from being hit. A true piaffe is nothing like that. 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmV987TzK2I&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcnfXBMZy-M&feature=related
These horses are frightened, and have no idea what they're doing.. they just know if they "dance" and keep their feet moving, they won't get whipped.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SlS85Peki3o&feature=related
This horse is a little better, but the Piaffe is supposed to be forward motion and impulsion.. not this stuff. Note the stiff hind end. Pretty sure he's getting whipped too.

This is a nice piaffe, note the forward impulsion and correct use of the hindquarter. 
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TAiIoswv57U&feature=related
(1:25)


This stuff makes my blood boil.


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> The way they "train" the horses to "dance" is cruel. The horses have no idea what they're doing, they're just expected to move their feet, and that's all they're "trained" to do. There is no finesse of collection, no rhyme or rhythm to it, it's just ... I don't even know how to put words to it.
> To train this movement, the "cowboys" cross-tie the horses in a small space, then wet their backs and haunches down, and whip them to make them "dance." There is no training up to this point, it's just grab and go.
> That second video you posted, charriot, I have no idea what those "riders" were trying to make their horses do. The spin at the beginning had absolutely no pivot to it, the horse was just turning around fast. A true spin is when the horse rocks back onto its haunches and moves its forehand around the haunches. That horse was just terrified and running in a circle.
> Then that "piaffe" type looking thing.. that was a confused horse that was just moving its feet to keep from being hit. A true piaffe is nothing like that.
> ...


^^what she said  
there's a few youtube movies with "dancing" mexian horses and such, dances at gatherings and weddings and parades, on the brick ground, head being yanked side to side with wire/ropes, and whipped until they move their feet around.
disgusting

I don't know who would want to rope a horses two front feet to mke them fall over..
"Hey guys wanna go break some horses legs today?!" isn't really the pick up line I like to hear.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Charroit, I really don't mean to be.. well, mean, but I do have some points on the first video you posted, the one about your mare. 
That piaffe isn't stemming from collection and impulsion, but is rather flat and just looks like the horse is moving its feet. 
The flying lead change.. correct me, but from what to what? All I saw was a horse hopping up in the air avoiding the bit... also, a flying lead change is always performed in the air, switching canter leads - I saw a horse on the right lead for a few strides, getting light in the front end from avioding the bit, but there was no lead change. 
I really don't want to start anything, but thought I should mention these points. You yourself have a nice seat and seem like a half-decent rider from what short video it is, but I honestly didn't see anything really stunning in those videos. 
Please correct me if I'm wrong about anything.


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## charroit (Jul 23, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> The way they "train" the horses to "dance" is cruel. The horses have no idea what they're doing, they're just expected to move their feet, and that's all they're "trained" to do. There is no finesse of collection, no rhyme or rhythm to it, it's just ... I don't even know how to put words to it. *It really depends on the individual charro, alot of them have given the sport a bad name.*
> To train this movement, the "cowboys" cross-tie the horses in a small space, then wet their backs and haunches down, and whip them to make them "dance." There is no training up to this point, it's just grab and go. *Not all Charro horses are trained like that, it's the mexicans that claim it's in thier blood and have never gotten on a horse in thier life. I have seen plenty of those. One of the top charro's in the US Kao, who lives 10 min away does not train his horses like this whatsoever, he keeps his horses in a barn stall and encourages them to move forward with a whip. Once they have started dancing he then stops tapping them with the whip and kisses at them. This is how I taught Hermosa before I knew Kao. *
> That second video you posted, charriot, I have no idea what those "riders" were trying to make their horses do. The spin at the beginning had absolutely no pivot to it, *The Charro rodeos tend to not be based so much on collection as the ones out here, Iv'e seen alot of horses that didnt use thier HQ properly but won because of how quick thier spin was. That video was based on the mexican rodeos in general. The slides differ also.* the horse was just turning around fast. A true spin is when the horse rocks back onto its haunches and moves its forehand around the haunches. That horse was just terrified and running in a circle.
> Then that "piaffe" type looking thing.. that was a confused horse that was just moving its feet to keep from being hit. A true piaffe is nothing like that.
> ...


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

I don't even know what Charro is!!!


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## charroit (Jul 23, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> Charroit, I really don't mean to be.. well, mean, but I do have some points on the first video you posted, the one about your mare.
> That piaffe isn't stemming from collection and impulsion, but is rather flat and just looks like the horse is moving its feet. *I'd have to agree with you on that one, were working on putting mare spring into her step though, she just turned 3 yesterday so I don't want to do anything too demanding but I have started her and thats the top I want to go for another couple months because I dont want to ruin her joints.*
> The flying lead change.. correct me, but from what to what? All I saw was a horse hopping up in the air avoiding the bit... also, a flying lead change is always performed in the air, switching canter leads - I saw a horse on the right lead for a few strides, getting light in the front end from avioding the bit, but there was no lead change. *It's not a flying lead change, she was supposed to rear and land on each lead but apperently thats on a diffrent video that I havent uploaded yet. *
> I really don't want to start anything, but thought I should mention these points. *IOf course, you always welcomed to comment or critique if you see something that doesnt look right. No ones going to start anything.* You yourself have a nice seat and seem like a half-decent rider from what short video it is, but I honestly didn't see anything really stunning in those videos. *Maybe not, but to most Charro's it's pretty good. I think iv'e turned her into a great little charro horse without the abuse.*
> Please correct me if I'm wrong about anything.


*Your friend, :lol: 
Kendall*


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I didn't mean any offence, but to me I would rather see a young horse moving into the bridle and not avoiding it.
But that's my culture. 
I wish you the best in your ventures, wish there was better representation of the sport - unfortunately I've only seen the bad and the ugly, and voice my opinion due to that fact. The horses don't look to be using themselves correctly, and just seem to avoid any contact. 
But like I said, that is what I've seen in the Charro world, and from that it looks like the majority of the "riders" employ the (cruel) techniques I outlined. 
Good on you if you are not doing that.


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## charroit (Jul 23, 2008)

JustDressageIt said:


> I didn't mean any offence, but to me I would rather see a young horse moving into the bridle and not avoiding it.
> But that's my culture. *No offence taken. Actually, when I started out I was taking western then moved on to english when I was doing Dressage, then I worked on reining, halter and western pleasure, then did some endurance and gymkhana then moved on to charro. I'm the only white girl out here that I know of that does this. lol I find it really fun and want to now try jumping, which i've never done before.*
> I wish you the best in your ventures, wish there was better representation of the sport - unfortunately I've only seen the bad and the ugly, and voice my opinion due to that fact. The horses don't look to be using themselves correctly, and just seem to avoid any contact. *Generally thats true and im not anywhere near the best of the charro's but I prefer the way I train over many others waves of training.*
> But like I said, that is what I've seen in the Charro world, and from that it looks like the majority of the "riders" employ the (cruel) techniques I outlined.
> Good on you if you are not doing that.


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## charroit (Jul 23, 2008)

Oops ***ways


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Unfortunately I just read that your mare just turned 3 - I highly suggest that you wait on doing all this advanced stuff - dressage horses don't start in on that extreme collection until they've had all the basics put in place, like impulsion, straightness, extension, collection, lateral movements, etc... the last step is that fancy stuff like the Piaffe and the other "dance" moves. It takes a lot of muscle and a lot of brain, something that I'm afraid a 3 year old just doesn't have.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

> The way they "train" the horses to "dance" is cruel. The horses have no idea what they're doing, they're just expected to move their feet, and that's all they're "trained" to do. There is no finesse of collection, no rhyme or rhythm to it, it's just ...


I* don't even know how to put words to it. It really depends on the individual charro, alot of them have given the sport a bad name.* 

_Charriot or buckinho as I know you more as. I have seen the way you train the so called piaffe that is nothing more than a horse mincing it steps and it IS cruel._



> To train this movement, the "cowboys" cross-tie the horses in a small space, then wet their backs and haunches down, and whip them to make them "dance." There is no training up to this point, it's just grab and go.


*Not all Charro horses are trained like that, it's the mexicans that claim it's in thier blood and have never gotten on a horse in thier life. I have seen plenty of those. One of the top charro's in the US Kao, who lives 10 min away does not train his horses like this whatsoever, he keeps his horses in a barn stall and encourages them to move forward with a whip. Once they have started dancing he then stops tapping them with the whip and kisses at them. This is how I taught Hermosa before I knew Kao. *

_What I saw was you hitting the horses front legs when you were on the ground and you posted you did this work on the ground because the mare was sore. At least that is what you said on this thread._

http://fhotd64476.yuku.com/topic/2881?page=1



> That second video you posted, charriot, I have no idea what those "riders" were trying to make their horses do. The spin at the beginning had absolutely no pivot to it,


*The Charro rodeos tend to not be based so much on collection as the ones out here, Iv'e seen alot of horses that didnt use thier HQ properly but won because of how quick thier spin was. That video was based on the mexican rodeos in general. The slides differ also.* 

_The problem is that you are 16 years old and trying to train movements on a horse with no training and based on what you perceive to be correct._



> the horse was just turning around fast. A true spin is when the horse rocks back onto its haunches and moves its forehand around the haunches. That horse was just terrified and running in a circle.
> Then that "piaffe" type looking thing.. that was a confused horse that was just moving its feet to keep from being hit. A true piaffe is nothing like that.
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=BmV987TzK2I&feature=related
> ...


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## charroit (Jul 23, 2008)

Spyder said:


> > The way they "train" the horses to "dance" is cruel. The horses have no idea what they're doing, they're just expected to move their feet, and that's all they're "trained" to do. There is no finesse of collection, no rhyme or rhythm to it, it's just ...
> 
> 
> I* don't even know how to put words to it. It really depends on the individual charro, alot of them have given the sport a bad name.*
> ...


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

charroit said:


> Here's my mare when we started out--She shows bothe her dances, the piaffe and the in air lead change which looks like a rear.
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=EeuqMdo_FR8
> 
> ...


that poor horse in the second movie


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

*charroit wrote:*



> The mare was sore in the BACK I repeat the BACK. And I asked her to dance in the FRONT i'll repeat one more time the FRONT.


So you feel it is acceptable to have a horse that is sore in any place to be out and worked.

THAT is abuse plain and simple.

No way no how should a horse that is sore be expected to be put in work even if that work is asked in an area the horse is not sore. To work a horse that is uncomfortable in any part of its body shows a complete lack of horsemanship.

It is for this reason the FHOTD featured you on her blog.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

I hate it! JDI took the words out of my mouth, that first video that was posted was disgusting!! The poor horse was so tense, the spin looked like some random twirl and the way that "person" was hitting the horse to make it "dance" was barbaric and cruel! There are alot of videos on Youtube of this type of "training" going on,and alot of them are just abuse!!

At one point the horse shoots forward as soon as this "man" raises the whip :evil: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZBZ72d6PMk 
This horse is being spurred to make him "dance"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V1XRlqNDEo
Just look at this poor horses body language. Look how haunched up he is, expecting to be hit with the whip :evil: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJGw6i_LHD0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=880P097Mzfs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTT9Z9Ld4dg :evil: 

All in all, i'd say I *hate* it!!!!


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## jeddah31 (Jun 11, 2008)

If i was a billionaire I would go to pakistan and set up a squillion horsee saving homes and travel around to save all the unforettunate horses who are owned by people who think this is cool. shame on people for liking this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=X8Ojqw35zsw&feature=related


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

charroit said:


> Spyder said:
> 
> 
> > > *Here we go again. Wasn't I just back on defending myself? GD
> ...


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

Also, to do the dance the horse can't just put all its weight on the front, it has to shift its weight back anyways to lift up its front...


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## wildting (Jul 27, 2008)

Harlee rides horses said:


> Also, to do the dance the horse can't just put all its weight on the front, it has to shift its weight back anyways to lift up its front...


I do not think you can educate this young lady, they tried that on FHOTD for a long time.

I am sorry to say. Until she grow up or get hurt by what she do there are no hope.


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## Harlee rides horses (Jan 13, 2008)

Well, I tried! :roll:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Harlee rides horses said:


> Also, to do the dance the horse can't just put all its weight on the front, it has to shift its weight back anyways to lift up its front...


When it's trained correctly, yes, they do need to put weight on the back end to support it. However, this didn't have anything to do with collection - this is just making the horse's feet move; doesn't matter how they move, they just have to move, so chances are there wasn't a whole TON going on in the back end, but the horse was still obviously moving around and putting weight on the back end in order to try and please the handler's request to "dance."
And no, I'm not arguing with you - somehow I missed the video of this girl working a sore horse, that is disgraceful. Horses arent like humans - when you work one part of the horse, you work all of it.

Edited to add:
Harlee, this video you posted: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZBZ72d6PMk
is SICK. I almost threw up, I kid you not.


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## wildting (Jul 27, 2008)

This is the youtube of her horse "dancing" with a bowed tendon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IutJ2DVFe8

This is another little gem of hers


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## charroit (Jul 23, 2008)

Haylee, my horses tendon is not bowed after fugly called ac they cam out laughed and asked me to train thier horse in exchange for thier other. Anyway it's a dead issue so why dont you just drop it?


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

alright alright alright...this isnt going anywhere. i do want to say first up that although i knew nothing of charro before this thread i have rapidly learnt about it and i have to say i dont like what i see. not one bit. it made me very sad in fact to see those horses 'dancing'. 

however, stating your opinions is fine as thats what the OP wanted but its starting to digress now down a path that can only see the thread get worse. because of this i have decided to lock the thread. admin will remove the lock if he thinks fair to do so. i think we've pretty much covered everything that relevant in the thread already.


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