# Unsure of my horses ownership



## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

Is your horse registered?


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

JoBlueQuarter said:


> Is your horse registered?




She's a thoroughbred. And I've found her on the jockey club website but I don't actually have her registration papers. I just don't want my mom to sell her and the only way me and my dad can prevent that is if the horse is under my name. That's my ultimate goal.


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

You have to get her papers from the former owner, then complete a form, registering her in your name. That's the way I did it with my paint filly, but it could be a lot different with a TB.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

JoBlueQuarter said:


> You have to get her papers from the former owner, then complete a form, registering her in your name. That's the way I did it with my paint filly, but it could be a lot different with a TB.




The previous owner didn't have her registration either. It got lost way before she got ahold of my horse.


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

OK, then honestly I don't know. Maybe somebody with more experience could help you.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

JoBlueQuarter said:


> OK, then honestly I don't know. Maybe somebody with more experience could help you.




Okay. Thank you!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

First off, disclaimer, I am not a lawyer.

Each state has different requirements as to what Proof of ownership is. In a cursory search, I couldn't find the specifics for South Carolina. 

Your best bet would be to write up a bill of sale and take it back to the person who sold you the horse and ask them to sign it. 

That still does not solve the issue of whether or not an un-emancipated minor can enter into a legal contract and have that contract be legally binding in court. In most states, the answer is no.

http://contract-law.laws.com/consideration/minors


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## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

Call the Jockey Club and see what they tell you about getting the papers. In any event, since you are a minor, registration papers would probably have to be put in your dad's name.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> First off, disclaimer, I am not a lawyer.
> 
> Each state has different requirements as to what Proof of ownership is. In a cursory search, I couldn't find the specifics for South Carolina.
> 
> ...




Thank you! I'll try and figure out what I can do here in South Carolina. I don't believe that a bill of sale is a legally binding contract. I think it's like a receipt.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Shoot...that's a toughy. If the person who sold her to you cannot provide proof of ownership, she may not legally be yours to begin with. Whoever has her papers could show up any day and claim she was stolen. The good news is that no diligent buyer would buy her from your mom without getting proof of ownership. The bad news is that not all potential buyers may worry about this, as it is not their goal to give her a home...

Is she, by any chance, an OTTB? In that case, she should have a tattoo on her upper lip, I think, which should help her to identify her and track down her ownership.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Joely Y said:


> Thank you! I'll try and figure out what I can do here in South Carolina. I don't believe that a bill of sale is a legally binding contract. I think it's like a receipt.


A bill of sale for livestock is like a bill of sale when you buy a car in most states. It has to do with liability and proof of ownership.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

I am in contact with her previous owner. I sent her a text today asking her what I can do to change the proof of ownership. And her registration was lost. She does have a lip tattoo but like I said her registration papers were lost. And when we bought her nobody had proof of ownership so I'm not really sure. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> A bill of sale for livestock is like a bill of sale when you buy a car in most states. It has to do with liability and proof of ownership.




What can I do if we didn't have one the day we bought her?


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

You can retroactively ask them to sign one. But, as has already been pointed out, if the previous owner cannot show that they had legal ownership of the horse then they also did not have the right to sell to you in the first place...it gets complicated.

On the upside, in most cases, if ownership is challenged by a previous owner, then the courts will award a certain fee to the person who has had possession of the horse for veterinary care, boarding, feed, training etc. Then the person claiming the horse has to either put up or shut up (null and void if the horse was stolen). Again, that varies by state.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> You can retroactively ask them to sign one. But, as has already been pointed out, if the previous owner cannot show that they had legal ownership of the horse then they also did not have the right to sell to you in the first place...it gets complicated.




I'm not sure if she does have proof of ownership. She might. However if she doesn't then the owner who does is nowhere to be found.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Joely Y said:


> What can I do if we didn't have one the day we bought her?


Yes, you need a bill of sale. You're right, it is like a receipt. In the same way that a receipt proves you bought the item (the horse in this case, because animals ARE considered just like any other property). Without it, you have no proof that any transaction ever took place. I have a horse that does not have papers. We don't think he was ever registered. I did get a contract drafted up, which also serves as the bill of sale. You do not need registration papers, but you need a piece of paper confirming you paid money for the horse. My other horse did come with registration papers, but we also have a receipt indicating how much we paid for her. 

I would draw one up immediately, and take it to the seller to get them to sign it. You might want to put your name and your dad's name on it since you are a minor. Also, make sure the horse is described in as much detail as possible. You need the date of birth of the horse, any markings (in as much detail as possible!), and the lip tattoo. You can google "horse purchase contract" if you want to take it a step further and draft up something even more detailed. Write the date that you bought the horse on it.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> Yes, you need a bill of sale. You're right, it is like a receipt. In the same way that a receipt proves you bought the item (the horse in this case, because animals ARE considered just like any other property). Without it, you have no proof that any transaction ever took place. I have a horse that does not have papers. We don't think he was ever registered. I did get a contract drafted up, which also serves as the bill of sale. You do not need registration papers, but you need a piece of paper confirming you paid money for the horse. My other horse did come with registration papers, but we also have a receipt indicating how much we paid for her.
> 
> I would draw one up immediately, and take it to the seller to get them to sign it. You might want to put your name and your dad's name on it since you are a minor. Also, make sure the horse is described in as much detail as possible. You need the date of birth of the horse, any markings (in as much detail as possible!), and the lip tattoo. You can google "horse purchase contract" if you want to take it a step further and draft up something even more detailed. Write the date that you bought the horse on it.




This was really helpful!!! Thank you so much!!!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Joely Y said:


> I'm not sure if she does have proof of ownership. She might. However if she doesn't then the owner who does is nowhere to be found.


Get the seller to sign the bill of sale regardless. If things go south, you can at least prove that you bought the horse in good faith. You can't chase down every previous owner, but unless you have reason to believe the person who sold you this horse didn't actually own it, you are going on their word. I don't ask a seller to prove to me they own the horse, especially if it doesn't have papers. I just assume they do. If the situation looks shady to me, I walk away.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> Get the seller to sign the bill of sale regardless. If things go south, you can at least prove that you bought the horse in good faith. You can't chase down every previous owner, but unless you have reason to believe the person who sold you this horse didn't actually own it, you are going on their word. I don't ask a seller to prove to me they own the horse, especially if it doesn't have papers. I just assume they do. If the situation looks shady to me, I walk away.




Okay thank you!!! I'm not really sure how to make a bill of sales. So I'll probably just look one up.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Joely Y said:


> Thank you! I'll try and figure out what I can do here in South Carolina. I don't believe that a bill of sale is a legally binding contract. I think it's like a receipt.


Where does the horse live? And by that I mean, at your mother's house, your father's house or is the horse boarded at a stable or training facility? Are your parents divorcing?


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Where does the horse live? Are your parents divorcing?




Yes they're going through an ugly divorce. I board her at a stable in South Carolina.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Joely Y said:


> Yes they're going through an ugly divorce. I board her at a stable in South Carolina.


And where do you live (with mom or dad)? Why does your mother want to sell the horse? I'm assuming she knows you paid with her with your own money. Who pays for the board and all the care of the horse?


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> And where do you live (with mom or dad)? Why does your mother want to sell the horse? I'm assuming she knows you paid with her with your own money. Who pays for the board and all the care of the horse?




I live with my dad. My mom is trying to pass off that she paid for the horse which isn't true. Also me and my dad pay for the horse but she's also trying to pass or that she does.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Joely Y said:


> I live with my dad. My mom is trying to pass off that she paid for the horse which isn't true. Also me and my dad pay for the horse but she's also trying to pass or that she does.


Another reason you need receipts. 1 - to show that you paid for the horse yourself, and 2 - ask the barn owner where you board to write a receipt for the board you've paid so far. This is important because it will show proof that your mom didn't pay for these things if she tries to assert ownership.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> Another reason you need receipts. 1 - to show that you paid for the horse yourself, and 2 - ask the barn owner where you board to write a receipt for the board you've paid so far. This is important because it will show proof that your mom didn't pay for these things if she tries to assert ownership.




My biggest concern is to make sure that my mom can't legally sell my horse because she says the horse is under her name but that's also not true because we never got like a "receipt" for my horse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Joely Y said:


> I live with my dad. My mom is trying to pass off that she paid for the horse which isn't true. Also me and my dad pay for the horse but she's also trying to pass or that she does.


Have your dad have his lawyer to put a court order on her that she is not to go near, try to sell, or in any way shape or form have anything to do with the horse. It sounds like the court will have to settle ownership of the horse through the divorce process, and as such, no one should be able to do anything with her until the court rules.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Have your dad have his lawyer to put a court order on her that she is not to go near, try to sell, or in any way shape or form have anything to do with the horse. It sounds like the court will have to settle ownership of the horse through the divorce process, and as such, no one should be able to do anything with her until the court rules.




The divorce isn't going through court. They're simply making a divorce agreement.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Joely Y said:


> My biggest concern is to make sure that my mom can't legally sell my horse because she says the horse is under her name but that's also not true because we never got like a "receipt" for my horse.


She's using the Coggins form to back up her claim.









You said they sent the results in her name when the test was done.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> She's using the Coggins form to back up her claim.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So my horses coggins is needing to be done soon. Could I change it to my name and that's it?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Joely Y said:


> So my horses coggins is needing to be done soon. Could I change it to my name and that's it?


I would be sure the vet had my name down as owner on the current one. 

If they're just doing a divorce agreement, it still has to go to the court to be made final and property divided, especially since it's ugly. I'm sorry they're letting you be caught in the middle.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I would be sure the vet had my name down as owner on the current one.
> 
> 
> 
> If they're just doing a divorce agreement, it still has to go to the court to be made final and property divided, especially since it's ugly. I'm sorry they're letting you be caught in the middle.




They're settling it with a divorce agreement not court. However I will make sure that everything has my name on it. Thank you. And thank you but I'm used to being caught in the middle and I've had to grow up faster. But I'm thankful for it.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

How about you forget about ownership for now and hustle to collect any and all evidence that you are the _de facto_ care taker for that horse? Financial statements first (a paper trail from your earning money to your spending money for the benefit and care of the horse); I don't know in how far witness statements (vet, barn) are of any use. If I remember one of your earlier posts correctly, you are 16, thus below the age in which you can sign enforceable contracts. Where's your dad in all of this?

Work on "preponderance of evidence" first, then on "proof" if you can.

I don't know if I'm overstepping my bounds here, but this strikes me as a great method to never see your grandchildren. Keep us updated - I'm genuinely rooting for you.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

mmshiro said:


> How about you forget about ownership for now and hustle to collect any and all evidence that you are the _de facto_ care taker for that horse? Financial statements first (a paper trail from your earning money to your spending money for the benefit and care of the horse); I don't know in how far witness statements (vet, barn) are of any use. If I remember one of your earlier posts correctly, you are 16, thus below the age in which you can sign enforceable contracts. Where's your dad in all of this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you so much! My dad doesn't know much about horses but I save everything and any paperwork that I get. So I have it all pretty much. Also I'm pretty independent so my dad doesn't really worry about me too much. He just focuses on the problems he has. But I will definitely be sure to keep all the paperwork I have for my horse.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

When we bought my daughter's horse (this is the one that does not have papers), we had to put him in my name because she was only 11. On the horse's passport, there was an option for her name as a minor, as long as there was an adult's name as co-owner. 

I don't know what the law is in your state. However, I would try very hard to establish that YOU bought the horse with YOUR money. It doesn't matter if you paid for food, board, vet bills, or anything else. What matters is that you paid for the horse, which makes him your property. To be on the safe side, I would add your dad's name so there is an adult co-owner. Sure, if it went to court, they may want to establish that you are able to continue to care for the horse if your mother pulls out. This is where your dad comes in. He would have to guarantee that he will be the adult responsible for you and the horse. But as I said before, it doesn't matter who paid for the Coggins. In the future, I'd certainly ask the vet to put it in your name (assuming you or your dad will pay for it next time), but people lease horses with the agreement that they will pay vet bills. That doesn't make them owners of the horse (ie, they can't sell it!). 

I'm also sorry that you're being put in this unfair position. But you're wise to try to protect yourself. Once you get the seller to sign off on a piece of paper that you actually paid for the horse, you may want to make a copy of that and show it to the barn owner where you board. He/she should know that your mother is not allowed to remove the horse because she doesn't own it - you and your dad do. Otherwise, the BO is in an awkward position if your mother ever shows up with a horse trailer to take the horse away. 

Hoping this gets resolved in a mature way by the adults involved.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Found this about SC Law regarding minors and parental rights:

"SECTION 63-5-30. Rights and duties of parents regarding minor children.

_The mother and father are the joint natural guardians of their minor children and are equally charged with the welfare and education of their minor children and the care and management of the estates of their minor children; and the mother and father have equal power, rights, and duties, and *neither parent has any right paramount to the right of the other concerning the custody of the minor or the control of the services or the earnings of the minor or any other matter affecting the minor.* Each parent, whether the custodial or noncustodial parent of the child, has equal access and the same right to obtain all educational records and medical records of their minor children and the right to participate in their children's school activities unless prohibited by order of the court. Neither parent shall forcibly take a child from the guardianship of the parent legally entitled to custody of the child._

If your parents have equal right to control your earnings, they have equal rights to the horse. The legal question is: If you earned money, is it your money, or is it your parents' money? If it's not your money, it's not your horse. Your parents just let you spent their money on a horse, but they retain the property rights. When you earned your money, did a legal guardian co-sign the employment contract? That could mean that it was never "your" money to begin with, so it is irrelevant whose hands the money left when it went to the seller of your horse.

I'm just throwing this out freely admitting that my legal education is limited to googling SC law for about 5 mins, but I'd be interested to see whether I'm making any sense. The crux of the matter seems to be the rights of minors in SC to own property independent of their legal guardians. That strikes me as questionable.

You may be independent in personality, but you may not be as independent as a legal entity. I'd get daddy interested in this matter a.s.a.p. and get some legal counsel which is more reliable that that of an anonymous armchair lawyer online.


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

mmshiro said:


> Found this about SC Law regarding minors and parental rights:
> 
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> 
> ...




I would hope that it's my money because I have a job to earn it. But I'll be trying to figure out the deal with my horse.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Joely Y said:


> I would hope that it's my money because I have a job to earn it. But I'll be trying to figure out the deal with my horse.


I'm sorry, legally it's not your money. Your parents just allowed you to use it as you see fit. If your parents took that money away from you, you could not prosecute them for theft.

_Child's Earnings and Services
*At common law, a father had the right to the earnings of a child. State statutes have modified this principle to give either a primary right to a child's earnings to the custodial parent or an equal right to both parents.* The right to a child's wages stems from the parental duty of support and, therefore, can be destroyed if a parent neglects or deserts the child. States, however, also have enacted laws that place a child's earnings in trust until the child reaches the age of majority. These laws were originally passed in the 1930s to protect child actors and entertainers who earned large sums of money. Before these laws were passed, some of the parents of these children had squandered their children's incomes.
The issue of the services of a child, which range from performing simple household tasks to working in the family business, ordinarily arises when a child has been injured. A parent may sue the individual who caused the child harm and claim damages for both medical costs and loss of the child's services._


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

mmshiro said:


> I'm sorry, legally it's not your money. Your parents just allowed you to use it as you see fit. If your parents took that money away from you, you could not prosecute them for theft.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Even with my own bank account? That's ridiculous. It's crazy to think that I have a job and earn money and that they can take it anytime they like.


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

I'm sorry about the whole mess, and hope it turns out OK! If its any consolation, at least you're almost 18! :gallop:


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## Joely Y (Mar 20, 2017)

JoBlueQuarter said:


> I'm sorry about the whole mess, and hope it turns out OK! If its any consolation, at least you're almost 18! :gallop:




Counting down!


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Joely Y said:


> Even with my own bank account? That's ridiculous. It's crazy to think that I have a job and earn money and that they can take it anytime they like.


I'm sorry, but you don't have a bank account. You use one of your parents' bank accounts. 

That's why it's so important to get your dad interested and invested in this. I don't know your mom's reason for threatening to sell your horse (Is it spite because you chose to live with your dad?), but currently your only leverage is the kind of relationship that woman may care to have with you in the future. 

Legally, it's really messy. Nobody in your family has any proof of ownership whatsoever, and your legal standing is non-existent. As another poster has suggested, get that bill of sale with your dad. He sets you up as co-owner so you can say, "It's my horse." 

I strongly suspect that, after the start of divorce proceedings, there is a halt on any major transactions involving family assets, so your horse will become part of the dividing up of property in the divorce. (Imagine there wouldn't be a halt, and one party sells the family home from under the other's butt, liquidating jewelry or antiques, buying expensive sports cars from the family account, etc.) So I doubt you'll wake up one day and find your horse sold.

So, after all I've learned while engaging with this, I'd say: Enlist your dad to protect your interests, and make it really expensive (in human terms) for your mom to screw you over like this.

I can't tell you how sad it is that a child has to deal with adult problems like this.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I have to say, I think @mmshiro is right. You are a minor and still living with your parent(s). They have supplied you with a roof over your head and basic necessities. That means that even if you earn money, they have a certain degree of control over how you spend it. Now, if this WERE to go to court, there's a good chance that a judge would be sympathetic to you. But in the meantime, a lot of damage can be done. Trust me, I've seen it - my husband is a lawyer, and I come from a long line of lawyers. The justice system is only fair in theory. In practice, your life can get ruined very quickly. 

Do get that bill of sale, and if I were you, I'd get your dad to sign on as co-owner. Show that you are caring for the horse. Unfortunately, as mmshiro points out, the horse may be considered an asset in the divorce, like a car. It's not fair, because you paid for him, but if it gets messy, he could get thrown in the mix. I hope it doesn't get to that point, but again, you're smart to be thinking ahead.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

You and your dad need to approach this carefully and quickly especially as there is a divorce in the works. mmshiro is correct in a lot of what she has said. Your dad must have his name on the bill of sale paperwork so that the contract is legal but you can be listed as co-owners and then you can own the horse outright the day you turn 18.

This would not be a big deal except that there is a divorce in the works and things could get ugly fast. Sounds like your mom wants to take possession of this horse and sell it so get that bill of sale with both names on it before the divorce papers are filed. If your name is on the bill of sale alone, it would be very easy for her to drag this into the courts and take possession especially if the recent Coggins has her name on it as owner. The Coggins comes from the USDA, a federal agency and is a pretty powerful document.

Once this divorce is filed with the courts, all assets (including this horse) become somewhat frozen even if both parties are agreeing on everything (and that rarely happens). No one can sell or profit from major assets while the divorce is in process. Then, when the assets are split as agreed and the court signs off on the divorce decree, all the fussing over who owns what should stop.

One of the reasons it became necessary to stop allowing major property to be owned by minors is that some parents, planning on filing bankruptcy (where you can lose everything you own) would transfer ownership of some of their property to their children in attempt to keep it. There has also been fraud in hiding assets in children's names to evade taxes.

Equine.com has really good, free legal documents tailored to the horse world that you can download, fill out and present to the seller to sign. Do this ASAP, before the divorce is filed.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Two thoughts here. In the state I live in and I am pretty sure it would be the same elsewhere for you to have a bank account under the age of 18 someone (it doesn't even have to be a parent or guardian) over the age of 18 has to be a joint account holder. They essentially have the same rights to money deposited in the account as you do though most just oversee the account to make sure that it is being used appropriately. As for the vet I would suspect same goes (and does here) any services they perform are contracted even if you pay cash up front so again an adult will be on the account and be the recipient of any paperwork generated. My child's horses are registered in his name. An adult has to be listed until he is 18 as the designated signor for legal purposes. Registration does not necessarily convey ownership because of this. Hope you get things sorted and your dad on board. As the others have said get his name on everything with your name included.


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