# Posting while trotting...male riders



## cher40

Okay my hubby has started some refresher lessons with my coach whom I adore. He has trail ridden and hunted off horses in his younger days. The horse he bought is trained in western pleasure. Mainly neck reining. So, we are working on the leg pressure. He's doing well. A little stiff on his right turns. Now my question is do men post during the trot? I'd think that would hurt and my hubby says no. Ugh...I'm so confused. Do cowboys post? lol. Sorry if this is a stupid question but I just can't picture it.


----------



## christabelle

I'm not an expert rider by any means, but I think it would hurt way worse not to post... I've been riding since I was a little kid, no formal training and always thought posting was something for "English" riding, but when I stopped to think about the motion, I do it too... Just not as much motion to it, you can't see it if you are not looking. If you don't do anything you just flop in the saddle at a trot, ouch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cher40

christabelle said:


> I'm not an expert rider by any means, but I think it would hurt way worse not to post... I've been riding since I was a little kid, no formal training and always thought posting was something for "English" riding, but when I stopped to think about the motion, I do it too... Just not as much motion to it, you can't see it if you are not looking. If you don't do anything you just flop in the saddle at a trot, ouch.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree...lol. But I don't really remember seeing men post on the ranch. Maybe I just don't recall. His horse in particular does a nice jog where you could sip tea but he does a nice trot.


----------



## Eliz

Typically, western riders don't really post. You CAN (it is a bit harder, though... or at least different) but western horses are supposed to have a nice little jog and smoother gaits to sit to 

But male riders do post... at least in english


----------



## Gidget

posting is a riding technique.
It doesn't have to be with just english and it's pretty easy to post in a western saddle..a lot easier actually but I agree that western horses are suppose to have easy smooth gaits..sadly my horse doesn't and so I have to post her trot all the time.I rarely can get her to do a smooth,easy trot =/


----------



## bsms

Western saddles tend to have a chair seat, which IMHO helps shelter the family jewels. Also, men who have spent their lives in the saddle are probably more flexible in the back and can sit the trot well.

Me? I started at 50. My back has the flexibility of a 2x4. If I sit the trot, I find it best to still use my legs some as a shock absorber. For comfort, posting is better though. Not the 'come 4 inches out of the saddle' type post, but the kind where my jeans rarely stop touching the saddle.

Also, many modern western saddles are made for women, with a steep rise from the cantle forward. That design was obviously not made for a guy who wants to have children, or who at least doesn't want his voice to change. They are hard to find anymore, but the old style saddle with about half the seat level and then a gentle rise ahead was a better design. If you aren't sure what I mean, watch an old western or some episodes of Rawhide.

I'm using an Australian saddle from Down Under because a) it fits my horses' short Arabian backs better, and b) its shape is more like the old western saddle - notice the large 'sweet spot' and gentle slope:


----------



## cher40

His horse has a really nice jog that requires no posting. My horse on the other hand would make you bounce all over if you didn't post during his trot. 

bsms, my hubby is 46 and hasn't ridden since his early 20's so it is like being a new rider again. He is having a problem finding a comfortable trail saddle. Is their a website for me to look at the saddle you have?


----------



## vikki92

My dad has been riding westren all his life & still does & hes 65yrs old. and when he trots, he sits his butt in the saddle & just sits the whole trot, useing leg muscel. you can post in westren but not many westren riders that i know do.


----------



## bsms

I bought my saddle at Australian Saddles - the Down Under Collection of Aussie Saddles for Trail, Ranch, and Endurance riding in December, when they had a 25% off sale. For $750, it is a pretty good saddle. At $1000, I don't know if I would buy it. The quality of leather and stitching isn't as good as a $1500 Circle Y, but it is a judgment call on how much lower the price needs to be to become acceptable. They have clearance sales, but "All clearance saddles can be returned for exchange or store credit only." That would make me very nervous.

One problem I had in looking for saddles is that my gelding has a very short back, and anything over 26 inches long is a tight fit on him. We have a used Circle Y arabian saddle that is 26.5 inches, and it really is longer than I would like. Cutting and roping saddles tend to be flatter, which I like, but also tend to be 28 inches long with square corners, and they can hit my geldings hip.

I own 2 saddles from Down Under. The first was a little small for me, but good for my oldest daughter and close enough that I rode it regularly for about 6 months. I love the design of that style saddle. It is a little narrower than a western. That is good for a guy starting riding at 50, because it means I don't have to stretch my hips as much to get down into the saddle. I found my biggest problem in starting riding was that my hips were very tight from 40 years of daily jogging, and it took a lot of riding to loosen things up enough that settling deep in the saddle was really possible.

It is a secure design. The poleys - the bumps on front - keep your hips secure in the saddle. My horses tend to twist and spin when they get scared, and I've never come close to coming out of these saddles. The gelding once had a prolonged bucking/twisting fit with my first Aussie saddle on him, and I just rode it out. I don't know if I could have done it in our Circle Y, and I KNOW I could not have handled it in my English saddle.

The drawback is that the quality isn't as good as a $1200-1500 western saddle. If my horses were not short-backed Arabians (the gelding is 3/4 Arabian, and the mare 100%), I'd probably spend a bit more and go western. A good western saddle will also hold its resale value better, and it is easier to find one used.


----------



## iridehorses

I used to ride English but now I'm exclusively Western (for the past 20+ years) and I post. Most of the male riders I ride with will post on a bumpy horse. I find that just like woman wear sports bras, men will wear "tighty ******" briefs to hold themselves together. Oh, and cowboys post when necessary.


----------



## WickedNag

In western riding you sit the trot  not that hard but of course, that is the only way I have ever ridden


----------



## cher40

Vikki92, that is what my hubby is trying to do. It will take practice and muscle toning...hahaha 

bsms, I found what I believe to be your saddle on Western saddles; Billy Cook, Circle Y , Tucker & used western trail saddles It does look similar. I think it was just over $500.00 on sale..not bad but will have to do more research. My hubby sympathizes with you as he feels like a stiff 2x4 as well. Thank you for your help. Much appreciated. 

iridehorses, lol...good advice.


----------



## cher40

WickedNag said:


> In western riding you sit the trot  not that hard but of course, that is the only way I have ever ridden


I noticed two western girls riding in the arena last night and they too sat the trot. I guess everyone has a difference of opinion. I would also like to sit the trot and learn how to do it properly. I have a feeling we are going to have some sore butt muscles...


----------



## Whisper22

It seems that there are a lot of different oppinions on this. I was also wondering this myself. My brother in law posts when he trots and the first time I noticed I thought "what the hell" lol, because I had never seen a man post riding western and his is quite noticeable. I've never asked him why he does that but I think I will because according to him no one taught him what he knows, it's just all experience.


----------



## bsms

Whisper22 said:


> ...but I think I will because according to him no one taught him what he knows, it's just all experience.


Could be. I started posting because I had seen it, and it seemed a better bet for retaining fertility...although at my age, I don't need any more kids! Still...


----------



## WickedNag

Well, the cowboys I know would laugh at the mere thought of posting. I am not talking cowboy wannabe's but true cowboys who use their horse year round. And you can not post at a show or you will be disqualified. 

I have only ridden western so don't know any other way. But the easiest way to help you is to make sure you are sitting so that you are going to allow yourself to move back and forth instead of up and down. You need to relax your muscles to sit a trot and allow yourself to move with the horse  If you start to bounce stop your horse and start over. If you start to bounce you will stiffen up and the bounce will only get worse.


----------



## Whisper22

bsms said:


> Could be. I started posting because I had seen it, and it seemed a better bet for retaining fertility...although at my age, I don't need any more kids! Still...


That's so funny you say that cuz he and my sister in law are expecting, they just found out last week. Completely unplanned too, so I guess it's working for him lol.


----------



## Gidget

I believe there are lots of opinions. I honestly will post as it now comes naturally to me but I am trying to learn the sit trot.

I have seen actualy cowboy guys post..not a noticeable post unless you pay attention but people at rodeos do it,the one guy that is who i consider a true cowboy does and everyone that I seen posts the trot...it's just an easier way and I find that it's more comfortable to the horse as well if you are not use to sitting the trot but everyone should learn how atleast some point..with me I can't do it at a decent pace..it has to be slooow.


----------



## rschenkel

I always sit the trot. Posting is too much work you just have to get insink with the horse and you do take some of it out with your legs.. I've been riding my Qh lately bare back and it seams to help me really get into your body position eventually I want to go bridle less also. 
PS... You do need to were boker briefs though wore bokers once never again lol.


----------



## WickedNag

Gidget said:


> I believe there are lots of opinions. I honestly will post as it now comes naturally to me but I am trying to learn the sit trot.
> 
> I have seen actualy cowboy guys post..not a noticeable post unless you pay attention but people at rodeos do it,the one guy that is who i consider a true cowboy does and everyone that I seen posts the trot...it's just an easier way and I find that it's more comfortable to the horse as well if you are not use to sitting the trot but everyone should learn how atleast some point..with me I can't do it at a decent pace..it has to be slooow.


I doubt they are posting they are sitting properly. Here is a youtube video that shows it pretty well


----------



## Gidget

No,I'm serious...people here post in western saddles all the time and the cowboy guy also said that he posts as it is a riding technique and it's not just for english people.
There was a person who was riding in a western saddle and always went to the arena and she taught me how to post in a western saddle.


----------



## vivache

It's hard to post properly in a western saddle. You may be able to get a straight post that works off your stirrups. The horn and pommel really mess up a good post.


----------



## bsms

If you can hit the horn, you're not posting. Posting is just about an inch more than rocking in the saddle. 

Some western saddles have more forward stirrups than others, but I haven't sat in any where I couldn't post. I've had people say you can't post in an Australian saddle, but that is hooey too.


----------



## Whisper22

My brother in law is definately posting.


----------



## Gidget

yes,you can defiently post in a western saddle. I agree very much so with bsms. If you are going straight up and down that isn't posting correctly..that's using your legs and standing and sitting basically.


----------



## vivache

I was not saying that a straight post is good, but it's what you see in a western saddle to avoid hitting the horn. Also, you DO want a straight post in certain disciplines. 

You can post, but not always effectively. It should have some forward motion, which may be blocked by the pommel

When I rode trotting horses, I was geared more toward saddleseat.


----------



## vikki92

well like i said before, i do believe (even if some people do post) that you are sopose to sit the trot & canter while riding westren, but thats just how i was thought my dad!


----------



## cher40

lol, now I'm really confused. I grew up in the country around ranch people. They all sat the trot. I even asked some old high school friends back home on FB if they sit the trot and they said of course. The girls that ride western in my barn do not post either. My coach wants me to post. I kinda think it looks silly posting in a western saddle. Especially a larger man. At-least in the English riding sense of posting in a western saddle. I find it awkward. ahhh pulling hair out here...lol.


----------



## Gidget

vivache said:


> I was not saying that a straight post is good, but it's what you see in a western saddle to avoid hitting the horn. Also, you DO want a straight post in certain disciplines.
> 
> You can post, but not always effectively. It should have some forward motion, which may be blocked by the pommel
> 
> When I rode trotting horses, I was geared more toward saddleseat.
> YouTube - American Saddlebred For Sale Three Gaited Park 5 Year Old


 
The video wouldn't work. And when I say straight post I am meaning like practically standing in your stirrups ..extending the leg out and then bending..as if you were to do squats,ya know what I'm saying? I use to do this when I first was taught how but this one lady in a western saddle was riding and I asked for more help and she showed me a better way that i could understand and I kept practicing and I'm still working on it as I know sometimes my thighs get tired in the upper part...
I also have posted in a trail show and I placed second in one of the classes they had so I think it depends.I know that you aren't suppose to in western pleasure shows and what not and we can argue back and forth all night but I'm just saying that I have seen people effectively post in a western saddle without the pommel and horn disturbing the motion.
Yes,it looks out of the norm. when you aren't use seeing it and some horses have a bouncy jog and it can hurt a person's lower back if they haven't effectively learned the sit jog/trot and I will admitt I'm not good at the sit jog/trot but I am still working on it and I'm getting a lot better.

And lets say ..a horse has a sensitive back. It would be better to post for the comfort of the horse and for riders as well.

I believe it depends on the speed of the jog as well.It's easier to sit when it's slow as it is more smooth than a fast jog. I think it depends on the rider and how experienced they are and the horse. I'm not saying I'm 100% for posting in a western saddle as if you are doing this discipline( I spelt that wrong I believe) and you want to show you want to and need to learn how to sit the jog but if you are just doing it for fun then why not?

And I'm not addressing this to only you,Vivache.


----------



## vivache

Let's try that one. That's what I mean by a 'straight' post.


----------



## bsms

vivache said:


> ...That's what I mean by a 'straight' post.


The purpose of posting is to get weight off the horse's back, not to air out your crotch. The horse isn't looking back to see if you have 0.5" of clearance or 6" of clearance. 

When I sit in a saddle, the swell is about 4" in front of me. If my hips move at a 45 deg angle to the horse's back, I'd need to come 4" out of the saddle before I'd hit the swell. If my hips move 30 deg above the back, then I'd only have 2 inches, and if they move at 60 deg I'd have to clear the saddle by 8 inches.

My personal goal is around 1" clearance, but you can see how adjusting the angle and amount of clearance allows you to post in a western saddle without hitting the swell or horn.


----------



## bsms

Also...I tend to advocate a chair seat, but the video in post 30 is a Harley seat. Folks can ride that way if they want, but I've never seen a western rider in a western saddle sit like that. The longer your leg, the less motion is available for the post.


----------



## WickedNag

All been very interesting but you had better not post in a western class if you want to place as you WILL be disqualified. And to me that statement alone will say you don't post in western riding. 

Learn to sit the trot I don't know any one cowboy who hurt his family jewels by not posting  I think they are more concerned with getting our of the saddle fast enough to doctor the calf they need to take care of.


----------



## bsms

WickedNag said:


> All been very interesting but you had better not post in a western class if you want to place as you WILL be disqualified. And to me that statement alone will say you don't post in western riding...


Believe me, riding in a western class in NOT a concern for me! I'm interested in what works, where it works, where it doesn't and why. How it looks isn't on my radar.

The OP asked, "...do men post during the trot? I'd think that would hurt and my hubby says no. Ugh...I'm so confused. Do cowboys post?"

I did a little riding in my teens before taking a 25+ year break. I was taught to post in a western saddle, and the instructor was an old man who had spent most of his adult life working cattle. The lady teaching my youngest daughter to ride in a western saddle started off as a barrel riding competitor. She has ridden western her entire life other than a few times in an English saddle to see how others ride. She started teaching posting as soon as my daughter was ready for trotting.

Is it possible? Yes. Do cowboys do it? Some, not all. Do men do it? Yes. Do all? No. Do I think a good rider would try it? Yes. Do I care if they don't? No. But does it hurt for a guy to post in a western saddle? Absolutely not!


----------



## WickedNag

bsms said:


> Believe me, riding in a western class in NOT a concern for me! I'm interested in what works, where it works, where it doesn't and why. How it looks isn't on my radar.
> 
> The OP asked, "...do men post during the trot? I'd think that would hurt and my hubby says no. Ugh...I'm so confused. Do cowboys post?"
> 
> I did a little riding in my teens before taking a 25+ year break. I was taught to post in a western saddle, and the instructor was an old man who had spent most of his adult life working cattle. The lady teaching my youngest daughter to ride in a western saddle started off as a barrel riding competitor. She has ridden western her entire life other than a few times in an English saddle to see how others ride. She started teaching posting as soon as my daughter was ready for trotting.
> 
> Is it possible? Yes. Do cowboys do it? Some, not all. Do men do it? Yes. Do all? No. Do I think a good rider would try it? Yes. Do I care if they don't? No. But does it hurt for a guy to post in a western saddle? Absolutely not!


Which is why I stated this has been interesting. Here where the cowboys use their horses and the ones I have talked to in the past two days said NO they do not post and laughed at me. 

Don't care one way or the other  I don't post in a western saddle, my daughter who rides english and western doesn't post in a western saddle and neither do my husband or son. IF the op or you want to post...go ahead. just giving my opinion as you are yours. The reference to showing was just that... western riders don't post. If you don't show don't worry about it. Takes more talent to sit a trot imo anyway :wink:


----------



## iridehorses

Riding in a Western class is not Western riding - it's just riding in Western style tack.

I have many, many friends in Texas that work cattle for a living and every one of them posts a trot on the open range.


----------



## WickedNag

iridehorses said:


> Riding in a Western class is not Western riding - it's just riding in Western style tack.
> 
> I have many, many friends in Texas that work cattle for a living and every one of them posts a trot on the open range.


You are right it is riding in western tack but in South Dakota those that work cattle for a living that I talked too laughed. They do not post... I grew up riding western, I have never been in an arena except to play in play days and sort cattle. I have never posted at a trot nor do any of the riders that I ride with. 

Don't know why you think you are going to change my mind... not happening...just as I am not going to change yours. :lol:


----------



## iridehorses

WickedNag said:


> Don't know why you think you are going to change my mind... not happening...just as I am not going to change yours. :lol:


I'm not trying to ... just offering a difference of opinion. Goes to show that there are many ways to do something. If someone posts or doesn't post in a Western saddle - it's neither right or wrong, just their style.


----------



## cher40

hmmm this is quite interesting. I really think my husband should learn to post. He needs to strengthen the muscles used for riding. His horse was a western pleasure show horse and has a really nice jog BUT on the trail that nice slow jog probably won't be practical like in the arena.


----------



## Gidget

WN...we are not trying to change your mind at all! It's a riding technique and I can't stress that enough. Posting takes talent as well...try it  You will see it takes a steady leg and upper body muscle as well. It's not about getting air and see how high you can go but to get off the horses back and it is easier for the horse and rider once you accomplish it.
Also have you ever thought that it differs from state to state?Rider to rider? Because it does.The first person I saw post was a western rider. People who pony out horses for the race track post,people at rodeos post at the jog(it's trot if it's english technically).
Did I get disqualified for posting at my local show? No,I did not.I think it depends on the judge as well. 
If the person wants to post at the jog then let them. They aren't bad riders if they do this.It's great to learn to sit the jog and to post.It shows that you can do both which in the end can make you the better rider. 

Vivache, I understand what you are saying now about the straight post. Thank you  And that horse is really pretty.


----------



## Amlalriiee

this has probably been answered by now but men post too, it only hurts if they fall too far forward into the front of the saddle. A few men ride with our trail riding group and they both post for comfort...hurts their butts just like ours to try to sit a bumpy trot!


----------



## xxBarry Godden

If the rider can post on an English cut saddle, then he or she can post on a Western saddle. But the rider's brain has to have been taught how to do it. A good rider can post to the trot even without the use of stirrups but it is a knack to be learned.

However why bother to trot in a Western saddle? A western rider can move up from slow walk to active walk, then to slow jog, then to slow canter - paces where the rider would normally sit into.

In English riding jogging - ie slow trot- is frowned upon. The English rider goes from walk to active walk to working trot to canter. But an English rider is always taught from the very begining of learning to ride how to post/rise to the trot. 

Rarely does the English rider trot downhill - but one can. If one comes downhill on a hard track - as to be found in the forestry - it is best to stand in the stirrups and let the horse bob up and down between the legs. But trotting down hill is hard on the horse's legs and feet - especially the check ligament.
Steel shod horses might slip on shiny or wet tarmac when trotting downhill.

Likewise trotting uphill it is best for the horse's back to stand in the stirrups, take the weight out of the saddle and lean forwards whilst grabbing some mane as support. The theory being to free the horse's back up for the hard work trotting uphill entails.

Remember trotting under saddle was developed by the cavalry to enable a troop of horses to ride in formation at speed over hard flat surfaces. The horses caught the beat of the hooves hitting the ground. 

Over uneven surfaces it is better for troops to canter but maintaining formation is more difficult.

The style which works in the flat sandy dressage arena on a well schooled horse is not necessarily the style appropriate for cross country riding. Away from the arena the rider is not being judged for style - the rider should be adapting his style of riding according to the speed and importantly the terrain. 

Actually a man needs to post/rise to the trot in order to protect his genitals especially at working trot and extended trot. Women are structured differently and their seating position adapts accordingly. Next time you are on the beach - look at the shape of a female butt and compare it with that of a male butt. Women know all about pelvic floors whereas men don't believe they have one - certainly not where to find it.

If I lived in the US, I'd ride Western and I'd forget about trottting, except in towns on tarmac surfaces. (But I would ride the horse collected at all times)


----------



## Gidget

Barry Godden said:


> If the rider can post on an English cut saddle, then he or she can post on a Western saddle. But the rider's brain has to have been taught how to do it. A good rider can post to the trot even without the use of stirrups but it is a knack to be learned.
> 
> However why bother to trot in a Western saddle? A western rider can move up from slow walk to active walk, then to slow jog, then to slow canter - paces where the rider would normally sit into.
> 
> In English riding jogging - ie slow trot- is frowned upon. The English rider goes from walk to active walk to working trot to canter. But an English rider is always taught from the very begining of learning to ride how to post/rise to the trot.
> 
> Rarely does the English rider trot downhill - but one can. If one comes downhill on a hard track - as to be found in the forestry - it is best to stand in the stirrups and let the horse bob up and down between the legs. But trotting down hill is hard on the horse's legs and feet - especially the check ligament.
> Steel shod horses might slip on shiny or wet tarmac when trotting downhill.
> 
> Likewise trotting uphill it is best for the horse's back to stand in the stirrups, take the weight out of the saddle and lean forwards whilst grabbing some mane as support. The theory being to free the horse's back up for the hard work trotting uphill entails.
> 
> Remember trotting under saddle was developed by the cavalry to enable a troop of horses to ride in formation at speed over hard flat surfaces. The horses caught the beat of the hooves hitting the ground.
> 
> Over uneven surfaces it is better for troops to canter but maintaining formation is more difficult.
> 
> The style which works in the flat sandy dressage arena on a well schooled horse is not necessarily the style appropriate for cross country riding. Away from the arena the rider is not being judged for style - the rider should be adapting his style of riding according to the speed and importantly the terrain.
> 
> Actually a man needs to post/rise to the trot in order to protect his genitals especially at working trot and extended trot. Women are structured differently and their seating position adapts accordingly. Next time you are on the beach - look at the shape of a female butt and compare it with that of a male butt. Women know all about pelvic floors whereas men don't believe they have one - certainly not where to find it.
> 
> If I lived in the US, I'd ride Western and I'd forget about trottting, except in towns on tarmac surfaces. (But I would ride the horse collected at all times)


 

I like this. Very informative.


----------



## kevinshorses

Speaking as a working cowboy, I would say that nearly every cowboy posts. Very often I have trotted for miles at a time and in order to help my horse and keep myself more comfortable I post. Posting is not just for the riders comfort, in fact its purpose is to help the horse move and not hinder the forward movement of the hind leg with your body wieght. The style of riding you do is irrelevent.


----------



## VelvetsAB

_In the end, I think the decision will come down to what your husband prefers to do. If her prefers to sit, then thats fine, but if he prefers to post...thats also perfectly acceptable. _

_I prefer to post...english OR western...because I find it easier on MY back, especially when riding a horse that is a bit more jarring. Means paying less to the back-cracker!_


----------



## cher40

Barry Godden said:


> If the rider can post on an English cut saddle, then he or she can post on a Western saddle. But the rider's brain has to have been taught how to do it. A good rider can post to the trot even without the use of stirrups but it is a knack to be learned.
> 
> However why bother to trot in a Western saddle? A western rider can move up from slow walk to active walk, then to slow jog, then to slow canter - paces where the rider would normally sit into.
> 
> In English riding jogging - ie slow trot- is frowned upon. The English rider goes from walk to active walk to working trot to canter. But an English rider is always taught from the very begining of learning to ride how to post/rise to the trot.
> 
> Rarely does the English rider trot downhill - but one can. If one comes downhill on a hard track - as to be found in the forestry - it is best to stand in the stirrups and let the horse bob up and down between the legs. But trotting down hill is hard on the horse's legs and feet - especially the check ligament.
> Steel shod horses might slip on shiny or wet tarmac when trotting downhill.
> 
> Likewise trotting uphill it is best for the horse's back to stand in the stirrups, take the weight out of the saddle and lean forwards whilst grabbing some mane as support. The theory being to free the horse's back up for the hard work trotting uphill entails.
> 
> Remember trotting under saddle was developed by the cavalry to enable a troop of horses to ride in formation at speed over hard flat surfaces. The horses caught the beat of the hooves hitting the ground.
> 
> Over uneven surfaces it is better for troops to canter but maintaining formation is more difficult.
> 
> The style which works in the flat sandy dressage arena on a well schooled horse is not necessarily the style appropriate for cross country riding. Away from the arena the rider is not being judged for style - the rider should be adapting his style of riding according to the speed and importantly the terrain.
> 
> Actually a man needs to post/rise to the trot in order to protect his genitals especially at working trot and extended trot. Women are structured differently and their seating position adapts accordingly. Next time you are on the beach - look at the shape of a female butt and compare it with that of a male butt. Women know all about pelvic floors whereas men don't believe they have one - certainly not where to find it.
> 
> If I lived in the US, I'd ride Western and I'd forget about trottting, except in towns on tarmac surfaces. (But I would ride the horse collected at all times)


Thank you Barry!! Excellent points and it all really makes sense to me. Most of the trail horses I have owned and ridden western have always moved into a nice slow canter. I for one could not post on a trail for very long. But that's just my old body complaining.


----------



## cher40

Yes, ultimately it his choice and he has a great western pleasure trained horse to learn on. We just can't wait to get out on those trails...


----------



## Gidget

you should show pictures of his horse  I wanna see!


----------



## cher40

Hi Gidget...I hope I do this right but I have a thread in the Horse Breed section. Here's the link.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeds/our-new-horse-can-you-guess-78411/


----------



## Gidget

OH MY LORD IS HE CUTE OR WHAT!?


I like that he is slender and tall looking..that is the saddlebred in him right?


----------



## cher40

He is super cute. And he loves to work. He eagerly puts his nose into the halter. Yes, I believe so, and he also has some real sturdy legs which I also believe would be the Saddlebred in him.


----------



## bsms

Well, I've got to admit...just watched an episode of Rawhide and I didn't see Gil Favor or Rowdy Yates posting. Not sure it gets more authoritative than that!


----------



## Tazmanian Devil

I have to laugh at the "family jewels" comments. 

If a man posts correctly, he will not damage himself. At the same time, if he sits the trot correctly, he will not damage himself.

I have never seen a "working cowboy" post. Of course, I have not seen all working cowboys in all situations. I wouldn't be surprised if some, or even many did. There is nothing right or wrong about it - it is simply a method of riding that some choose to do and some choose not to do.

Several years back I was at a guest ranch that strongly advocated posting and claimed "all" good western riders did it because it "saved" the horse's back. I realized later that was basically true... for them. They regularly deal inexperienced riders that bounce in the saddle all day long. Teaching these newbies a basic post was the right thing to do for their horses.

On the other side of the coin, I participated in a mini-endurance ride a few years back. The "mentors" that guided my group insisted that everyone post. I argued and refused to play along. My horse has a great trot that I can sit all day long and I personally find posting very uncomfortable. The ironic thing is that riding behind this guide for a while I watched as her poor attempt at posting resulted in her ample bottom SLAMMING into the saddle on every stride. I felt sorry for her horse. To her credit, at the end of the ride she did admit that my horse was smooth and I was right about not needing to post.

Whether you choose to sit the trot or post the trot is not as important as doing it correctly.


----------



## xxBarry Godden

A sudden thought on the subject.
In Britain we don't 'post' - we 'rise to the trot'

The energy developed by the action of the horse at the working trot ' throws' the rider upwards. 
The idea of posting is that the rider 'catches' the upward thrust, 
absorbs the energy in the hip, knee and ankle, 
and then gently lowers the weight back onto the saddle.

The idea is to soften the blow of the rider's weight coming back down onto the saddle. Otherwise the horse's back is literally being 'hammered' by the up and down action of the rider.

The rise off the saddle should be minimal

A commmon mistake for the new rider learning to rise to the trot, is that they get into the horse's rythym, 
they anticipate the upward thrust 
and push themselves upwards off the stirrup bars using the ball joints of their feet and their ankles as propulsion. 

The viewer can readily see this from the ground because the whole movement looks over accentuated and false. The legs also move , which if the trot is done properly, they don't.

The fast sitting trot represents a bigger problem for many novice riders, there isn't time for the rider to thrust himself upwards, hang and then drop - so unless he reins the horse back and reduces the pace he has to 'sit in', but because he has not learned how to correctly 'rise to the trot', everything goes wrong. 

In the old days we were taught to rise to the trot without using stirrups. But then we squeezed with the inner knee and thereby created 'a pivot'. 

This is one of those movements in riding which if learned wrong from the very beginning is difficult to correct later. First the wrong way of rising has to be stopped and then the correct way understood and recorded in memory so that it becomes an automatic reaction.

A lot of riders find rising to the trot difficult because they are putting too much effort into it. The muscles in the lower back fatigue.

This is also a movement which will be influenced by any faulty alignment in the rider's spine and hips through injury.

In the UK one can now have one's trotting action photographed in slow motion
and subsequent study of the rider's action can point to the faults in the rider's action.

The Spanish riding school state that it can take up to a year to develop the perfect trotting action.

But if you get the perfect action and then ride a horse with an imperfect trotting action, perhaps as a result of skeletal or spinal malfunction, then that horse will be forever feel uncomfortable.

(Oh this is a complicated subject and a devil to write about)

B G


----------



## bsms

Barry Godden said:


> A sudden thought on the subject.
> In Britain we don't 'post' - we 'rise to the trot'
> 
> The energy developed by the action of the horse at the working trot ' throws' the rider upwards.
> The idea of posting is that the rider 'catches' the upward thrust,
> absorbs the energy in the hip, knee and ankle,
> and then gently lowers the weight back onto the saddle.
> 
> The idea is to soften the blow of the rider's weight coming back down onto the saddle. Otherwise the horse's back is literally being 'hammered' by the up and down action of the rider.
> 
> The rise off the saddle should be minimal...


I like that description better - rise to the trot. And I agree with the idea the rise can be minimal. The horse isn't looking back to see if I'm airing out my crotch.

However, sitting the trot in the western version is, I think, different than in the English.

I've always had trouble sitting the trot without hammering my horse's back. While watching Rawhide - don't laugh, please, and the first season was on sale at Walmart for $5 - I noticed almost everyone was riding with a much longer leg than I do. I suppose my knee normally bends my leg at around 135-150 deg, and more commonly at the low end. But they were riding with an almost straight leg.

I saw the same in historical photos of cowboys, so I tossed my Australian style saddle (with horn) on Trooper (former ranch horse) and adjusted the stirrups until my leg was almost straight with my foot rammed home in the stirrup. Maybe a 160 deg bend. Then we started walking, and soon were trotting - and it was easy and natural to sit the trot.

Using a straight leg with my heel even with my belt buckle, a couple of things happened:

1 - I didn't come out of the seat so far. In fact, almost not at all. With a shorter stirrup, the horse's motion only needs to lift the weight of my body from the hip up - my leg can just straighten at the knee instead of needing lifting. With 170 lbs to lift instead of maybe 90-100, I didn't get very light in the saddle.

2 - I didn't come down nearly as hard. Instead of pivoting at the knee, my thighs would slide up and down a little, and the stretching absorbed much of the reduced shock. My legs were relaxed, but they were still absorbing shock. I didn't have to rely on my back to do it all.

Of course, being an ex ranch horse, Trooper was happy to jog instead of fast trot, but that is what cowboys tended to do.

Now, I've only done this a couple of times, but each ride worked the same - with a very long, straight leg, I didn't rise nearly as far and my return down was cushioned by my legs and not just my back. It was the first time in my life I've felt comfortable sitting the trot - and the first time my horses seemed comfortable with it even in an English style saddle (since the Aussie underside is English in design). I would think a western saddle distributing the weight over nearly twice the area would make it even easier on the horse's back.

This may be old hat to most of you, but it hadn't ever occurred to me, and no one who had watched my attempts at sitting a trot had mentioned it. We've got 2 days of storm hitting southern Arizona right now, but later this week I plan to try it some more.

Here are some pictures of cowboys from around 1890-1915:























































All images from Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide


----------



## Marecare

Very nice photos bsms and they really tell a story of men that sat in the saddle all day over all kinds of terrain.

I try really hard to get some folks to let their legs down some and most get pretty grumpy about it and say they need the short leg to post.

The "Western" post is just the same as what I have seen on fine English riders doing Dressage in my experience.


----------



## Whisper22

This makes a lot of sense. While we were visiting some family in Colorado last year we rode some of their horses and they adjusted the stirrups the same way, so that my leg was practically straight. They are the true cowboy type.


----------



## Gidget

if I were to have my legs that straight I think my legs would be dangling past my horses tummy =/
I rider with shorter stirrups.


----------



## kevinshorses

I can't speak for fictional characters on a show that ended 20 years before I was born but if you hire on to a big outfit here in the west (Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Utah and Wyoming) you will trot many, many miles and it won't be a slow jog. Cowboys trot so that they can get to where the work is and have some horse left. If they were to jog they wouldn't have enough time to get the job done when they finally got there and if they were to lope they wouldn't have any horse left to do the work. If you were to put your horse in a good working trot you would get quite good at posting in the first 5 or 6 miles.


----------



## trailhorserider

bsms said:


> Western saddles tend to have a chair seat, which IMHO helps shelter the family jewels. Also, men who have spent their lives in the saddle are probably more flexible in the back and can sit the trot well.
> 
> Me? I started at 50. My back has the flexibility of a 2x4. If I sit the trot, I find it best to still use my legs some as a shock absorber. For comfort, posting is better though. Not the 'come 4 inches out of the saddle' type post, but the kind where my jeans rarely stop touching the saddle.
> 
> Also, many modern western saddles are made for women, with a steep rise from the cantle forward. That design was obviously not made for a guy who wants to have children, or who at least doesn't want his voice to change. They are hard to find anymore, but the old style saddle with about half the seat level and then a gentle rise ahead was a better design. If you aren't sure what I mean, watch an old western or some episodes of Rawhide.
> 
> I'm using an Australian saddle from Down Under because a) it fits my horses' short Arabian backs better, and b) its shape is more like the old western saddle - notice the large 'sweet spot' and gentle slope:


I think all saddles should have the shape you are describing.....and I am a woman! 

I HATE with a capital "H" saddles with a dramatic rise to the seat. I don't know who invented those things, but they feel awful to me. That is perhaps my biggest saddle pet peeve as far as rider comfort goes!

I can't speak from a man's point of view, but I ride western and ride with a REALLY long stirrup, like the old cowboy photos posted earlier, and I always sit the trot. Now if a horse is super fast and bumpy, I may stand in the stirrups a bit (and I'm practically already doing that) or rock a little with the motion (as a saddleseat rider taught me to do) but basically, I guess what I am saying, is that is how I ride too- with a long stirrup and sitting the trot. But I guess that's pretty irrelevant because I'm a girl. :lol:

Just because I enjoy showing it off, here is my favorite saddle- I think it has the perfect seat shape.


----------



## xxBarry Godden

Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.

The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot. 
The second lesson was to learn to ride with signficant weight carried on the stirrups at all times. 
The third lesson was to move with the horse, if it leant over, then lean with it. 
The rider sat upright and straight using the feet to compensate and resist the 
forces of gravity and movement by pressing down on the stirrups - which were almost being used as 'pedals'.

The rider leaned with the horse - if the horse went to the right at speed then the rider would lean over with the horse into the bend.

We always were to ride on a loose rein held in one hand only. The bits were all Western lever bits and we were told never to ride collected as the potential for accidental pressure on the horse's jaw was too great.

When we trotted - which was usually on level tarmac - we always posted.

If the weight was held on the stirrups, then the rider could not rise too high so long as the stirrups had been adjusted correctly for Western. The knee joint took the strain of rising to the trot.

The riding technique as described above was regarded as almost heresy by regular English riders trained by the British Horse Society. But it worked.
My horse would accept being ridden English or Western. 

With hindsight it would be interesting to video a western rider posting and an English rider rising to the trot. If the camera were high speed and could be slowed down then the difference in posting and rising could be better understood. A high level English dressage rider might already know the difference.


----------



## bsms

kevinshorses said:


> I can't speak for fictional characters on a show that ended 20 years before I was born but if you hire on to a big outfit here in the west (Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Utah and Wyoming) you will trot many, many miles and it won't be a slow jog...


By jog, I meant a comfortable trot. Trooper and Mia can both do a fast trot that moves quickly and burns up energy, but I would think that would tire them as quickly as a canter. Mia will also do a fake trot, where her feet are moving but she isn't...so to speak. She usually does it when she is annoyed with me, or when I tried to sit the trot but bounced the trot instead. Trooper can do a slow trot if he's feeling lazy and I let him, but his normal trot covers ground OK. Ask him for faster, and he'll go to a canter rather than push the trot up.

And I haven't ever worked on a ranch. Trooper has. I'm pretty new to riding, so I'm making some guesses. I don't know how one could really post when the legs are as long as the pictures I showed, although Barry Godden in post 61 says you can - sort of. Not quite the 'Jack-in-the-box' posting I associate with English riding...which isn't fair to English riders, I suppose, but it is what I see a lot of when driving past arenas with young English riders. 



trailhorserider said:


> I think all saddles should have the shape you are describing.....and I am a woman!...
> 
> ...I can't speak from a man's point of view, but I ride western and ride with a REALLY long stirrup, like the old cowboy photos posted earlier, and I always sit the trot. Now if a horse is super fast and bumpy, I may stand in the stirrups a bit (and I'm practically already doing that) or rock a little with the motion (as a saddleseat rider taught me to do) but basically, I guess what I am saying, is that is how I ride too- with a long stirrup and sitting the trot. But I guess that's pretty irrelevant because I'm a girl. :lol:
> 
> Just because I enjoy showing it off, here is my favorite saddle- I think it has the perfect seat shape.


I like your saddle. I've seen a few like it, but none that would fit Trooper's very short back. That is my idea of what a western saddle should look like!



Barry Godden said:


> Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid...
> 
> ...The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot...
> 
> ...The third lesson was to move with the horse, if it leant over, then lean with it. The rider sat upright and straight using the feet to compensate and resist the forces of gravity and movement by pressing down on the stirrups - which were almost being used as 'pedals'.
> 
> The rider leaned with the horse - if the horse went to the right at speed then the rider would lean over with the horse into the bend...


Interesting post. I pay for lessons for my daughter and daughter-in-law, so I'm learning by doing and listening. I did take some lessons 30 years ago in Utah, where an old ex-cowboy taught posting in a western saddle. However, he taught it with a shorter stirrup and with the heel under the hip. Almost every picture (90%) of cowboys I can find from the 1890-1930 period shows a position closer to what cutting riders use, at least from the hip down.

Here in southern AZ, the winds have picked up and the temperatures are dropping, so it will be Monday before I saddle up again and play around a bit more. Happily, my horses seem to be pretty forgiving - not a trait usually associated with Arabians.

BTW - there are hundreds of pictures from around 1910 at the web site below...it is a great place to look and think!

"_Two cowboys working the herd on their cutting horses. Three Blocks Ranch, New Mexico_, 1908-1909"










Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide


----------



## Fort fireman

I am a guy, I ride western, and I post when I need to. That is the short answer. The long answer involves some of my history. I started riding western when I was about 8. I rode until I turned 16 or so. I got a car and joined the local FD and just kinda ran out of time. When I turned 20 I moved and got a side job at a hunter jumper barn for about 7 years. It was there that I started riding english but always loved the western stuff. I started riding 4 or 5 horses a day and learned alot. I still rode western when I could though. That is where I kinda strted to merge the 2 styles. Then I worked on the side at a trail riding place. i was on a horse 7-8 hours a day.( different horses throughput the day) I would say at least once a week I was asked by people that had never sat a horse. " How do you do this all day and not hurt the boys" I would tell them if it is hurting your boys try sitting back on your back pockets a bit more and move your hips with the horse. Their face would light up and all of a sudden they were comfortable. Now that was at a walk mostly but my point is , if you sit the horse correctly it will not hurt anything you may need later.
I now have a 4 yr old that I am training as a ranch horse for versitlity and I am starting a 3yrold. now. I will sit them for awhile when riding and I will post. I want them to be used to both and it does save on some where and tear on the youngans backs. I do tend to ride with my stirrups kinda inbetween english and western lenght. Kinda leaning toward the western.
My wife is from Montana and rides dressage but she grew up ranching. That is why she rides dresssage. She had her fill of cowboying. That being said we go out there and go riding when we can. Most of the working cowboys I have met and rode with will post. It's easier on the horses and a good steady trot is the gate that a horse can cover the most ground in without running out of gas. Over a long peiod of time trotting posting is by far the most comfortable for the rider as well. 
Just some opinions from the new guy.


----------



## Sarahandlola

I prefer short stirrups and it is called rising trot here =P I hate sitting to the trot my balance is terrible.


----------



## AngieLee

typically in western you dont post.but some do (including me but not often. i prefer to just sit). But if your showing western pleasure you wont be asked to post


----------



## tinyliny

Trailhorserider,

Love that western saddle. Who is the maker? That kind of flat seat is nice. It encourages you to be more vertical and have a bit more of a "three point seat". The ones, as you said, that rise steeply and directly from the cantle push the rider back onto the cantle, rolled back onto their tail bone more. Encourages a chair seat. Love your saddle!


----------



## cher40

I've been away from the forum for awhile and didn't realize how many of you responded with comments and opinions. Thanks everyone. 

I will update. My hubby has found a Western Pleasure Coach to work with. His horse is WP trained so he will most likely be sitting the trot. His horse is very smooth on his gaits. Jealous of that...lol


----------

