# Dangerous and Unpredictable Mare! What should I do?



## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

The way I see it is, if you have to ask then you need to call a competent trainer.........like yesterday! Your safety comes first.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Welcome. I am going to be blunt. This is a HORSE. It does not have human emotions. (neither does your other one you think is so "grateful" who sees you as a walking treat machine) It has NO respect for you whatsoever, and it WILL hurt you badly if you do not get help or get rid of her. That is for sure. She needs someone to have a CTJ meeting with her……the problem is, unless YOU learn how to handle her, she will likely revert back to bad behavior and once again take advantage of you. For the time being STOP sitting with her, coddling her and giving her treats. Period. You need to be paying 100% attention to her attitude when you are with her ALL the time. I will guarantee there are clues and this is hardly "out of the blue". Until you learn a bit about horse behavior and how to deal with it you literally risk your life every time you walk into that paddock. GET HELP! And I mean a REAL PERSON-not a DVD.


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## Elsa5 (May 4, 2014)

My mare was the same. NO TREATS! my mare doesnt even bite any more but if some one sneaks her a few treats she instantly starts to get lippy and pushy. And learn how to lunge for respect....defiantly recommend a trainer coming out even if it's just for a few hours, to show you how to get her respect
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## gssw5 (Jul 30, 2013)

I would get a professional, experienced trainer to work with her and see if they can figure out if she is a "ticking time bomb", or if she just needs a more experienced person. 

I mean someone who has been successfully training horses and dealing with behavior problems for many years not someone who is just starting out or has not experience with serious behavior issues. There are probably some little signs your missing that a trainer may pick up on.

Most importantly keep yourself keep a training stick between you and her at all times and don't be afraid to use it to keep her out of your space.


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## Elsa5 (May 4, 2014)

It honestly sounds like you spoil your horses and they have no respect for you what so ever. Spoiling a horse can ruin their attitude for life, my mare doesnt act like a mare, she was unpredictable, Moody, pushy, dangerous, and high strung because she was spoiled for 9 years and I was the first owner to actually demand her respect which led to many fights with her and still does
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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I agree with everyone else-get a trainer. This is very dangerous behavior she is exhibiting. You need a trainer to help show you how to keep her out of your space, and show you how to be a leader and get respect from her. You are supposed to be the lead mare, and lead mares have a space bubble. If the other horses don't respect this bubble, well they get a big kick thrown in their face-just like she did to you. She is proving her dominance over you, and ranking you as a low member of the herd beneath her.

I agree with gssw5-get a driving or lunging whip and have it with you at all times while being around her. Get that distance, get space, and don't let her invade it.

But definitely, please most definitely, get a trainer. Don't risk your safety any more than you already have. If you feel like the horse is too much for you, sell her to a person that knows how to deal with a horse like this, preferably a trainer if they would take her.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Get a trainer or sell her. If someone calls their own horse dangerous, it's time to either get a trainer involved or sell the horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this is a very bad match for you. you want a horse that you can love on, and this mare is not that type. she may become it, but not now. personally, sell her and either stick with Trigger only, or start looking, and don't buy a young , hot, thbd mare. 

this is a dangerous situation, you are way over your head
. if my horse had bitten me twice, kicked me once and reared over me, I'd sell it. just like that.


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

This behavior , as a money winning race horse, while a PIA it is what it is. This behavior as a hobby type backyard horse, NO WAY would I sell her to anyone, other then to the local meat packing company for whatever the current by the pound price is. Otherwise, I would call the owner of the closest low end auction and pay them to come and make your problem go away. 
There are plenty of nice horses for sale out there, let your trainer pick out one for you.


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## Elsa5 (May 4, 2014)

I wouldn't say send her to an auction at this point. She's only 4 years old and probably isn't being handled correctly. No don't sell her to just anyone and make sure they understand her issues.

People use to say my mare wasn't worth the bullet it would take to shoot her. My neighbor actually claims to owning her several years ago, said something wasn't right with her and sent her to what he believed was a truck headed to Canada but clearly she didn't make it that far.... took several months and we are at trainer #7 but we hit the jackpot with this trainer. She has made unbelievable progress with her and she is unrecognizable to the horse she was. If I were to sell her it would only be to this trainer because they are the perfect match
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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Talk to your vet a regumate. She may have a hormonal issue.


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

Thank you for answering to my question and yes I should probably go find a trainer. But, I highly doubt that Trigger just sees me as a walking treat machine. He has very much respect for me, and would never do anything to hurt me. I spoil him and cuddle him, but he always is very respectful to me and he can be ridden completely tackless. I know people say horses dont have human emotions but theres clearly a sign of greatfulness or happiness in their eyes when you take them from a bad place and give them the love and attention they deserve. 
But I do realise now Grace isn't that type of horse that you can cuddle and love on, at least not yet. I guess I won't sell her, but I will certaintly work on finding a trainer.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

horse DO have emotions. They have a lot of emotions. fear, anger, anxiety, pleasure. But, looking at it as "grateful" might be seeing it as more complex than it is. 

whatever. but obviously, Grace cannot be approached the way you can approach Trigger. and you might be able to learn how to work with her. But, you would have to probably make a lot of changes in how you think about her. For now, she cannot be trusted. I do hope you can find a good trainer to help with this, if you decide it's worth your time, money and effort to try working with her.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Finding a trainer will not help this person a bit until they learn how horses think and how they interact with their herd members and people.

There is not a darn thing wrong with your horse other than what you have taught her and not taught her. You have taught her to do as she pleases around you because you have not set the boundaries that she needs to safely interact with humans. You have taught her to treat you like she would another horse.

You need to learn the difference between what a horse 'likes' and what a horse 'tolerates'. Your other horse 'tolerates' you a lot more than your newer horse. Horses that allow people to hug on them just tolerate more interaction and physical closeness than a lot of other horses tolerate. 

They all have different dispositions just like people do. Some horses tolerate a lot of meaningless interaction with people. Many horses tolerate interaction they would rather not have but have had good manners instilled by handlers that they respect, so they tolerate it just fine. They move over when asked, back up when asked, stay out of a person's space (and off of their feet) but let their handler deworm them by shoving a syringe or tube of dewormer in their mouths, let handlers give them shots, etc --- not because they like it but because they have been taught proper manners and tolerate it. They have been taught to tolerate a lot of things in order to be safe and pleasant to be around. 

Horses are just too big to treat people like they would another horse. We absolutety have to be above them on their 'pecking order'. Some horses are more timid and submissive by nature. They require less 'mannering' than horse that are more dominant and aggressive by nature. You, obviously, have one of each.

I know many people nowadays want and crave true affection from their horses like they can get from a dog. Horses are herd animals and other than occasional rubbing of an itchy spot, they touch each other very little in their herd. Many horses lay their ears back or give the little 'head toss' that tells other horses to move away from them when other horses or certain horses want to stand too close. They are very likely to 'dive' at a 'disobedient' and take a hunk out of it if they do not move out of the 'their space'. That is all your horse is trying to do. You just are not a very 'savvy' herd member to this unmannered horse. They do not 'cuddle' or lean on each other. They want the safety of having herd members close by but not too close. You are getting too close.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

^This. You need to learn how to read the language of the horse. The mare is being the alpha in your relationship, with you as the low man on the totem pole. While I would advise you to keep safety in mind at all times, if there's someone who can teach you more about body language I would suggest you go and take a few lessons. Personally if this was my horse I would have had a CTJ meeting on the first bite, and a kick would have been envoking my wrath upon her. Think about it, how do horses punish challengers in a herd? They beat the snot out of them. You need to become her leader before she hurts you.


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## Elsa5 (May 4, 2014)

^^^^^^^^^ cherie
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

I second everyone on getting a more experienced person to help you train her.

I did want to add, if you are going to be anywhere near Grace to put a halter and a lead rope on her. Probably wouldn't hurt to carry a crop in your back pocket in case you need to do a quick ground-work session (backing, moving hindquarters, etc.) 

A halter will at least give you some control of the situation. A halter with a chain if needed. No more "Just hanging around her" with her loose until she respects you, and you can trust her.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Can't really say it any better than Cherie and a few of the previous posters. 

It reminds me of my little pony mare. The lady that I got her from was intimidated by her. When she dropped her off I heard horror stories of a biting, charging, disrespectful little snot who wouldn't even lead with a regular halter. 

She did try to bite me. Once. I made her understand in very sort order that such things are not tolerated at all. It was amazing what a good pony she was once she realized she had someone working with her that knew how to take the leadership role. She leads just fine, never tried biting again, never charged me, she is the easiest pony to worm, great with her hooves, etc. All the basic manners were already there, but she also pushed the boundaries as far as she could get them which was unfortunately pretty far at her last home.

That is what it sounds like is going on with your mare. I think you need to either sell her, or get someone who knows what they are doing to show you how to handle her. However, some people just never have it in them to deal with a dominate horse. Nothing wrong with that, but its something you need to learn early on so you can look for suitable horses in the future.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sell her with all her problems declared to someone who has the experience to ride a horse like that - crow hopping is not a big deal unless the horse has a back problem which should be checked out first and who just wants a horse to be a horse and not be like some Labrador dog to hang out with
Some horses will take that sort of thing and never be a problem - others end up like your mare has.
Get her checked out for ovarian cysts/tumors though - they can make mares really cranky and unpredictable


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## Ninamebo (May 25, 2013)

I think this horse could be alright, in the right hands, which are not your own. And that is okay. It doesn't mean you are incapable of working with horses, but in life we all need to come to terms with the fact that we will not get along with everyone we meet (horses included) 

This horse is more of an alpha mare, and she will need an assertive hand her whole life, these type horses I find will always test you to see if you are on top of it, on your toes. No? Then they can scoot right by and do as they please.

Please, please seriously consider selling and taking the time to look for a horse more suited to you that you can enjoy, not one that treats you like a punching bag. It takes time and experience to handle a horse like Grace, and it's okay to say you aren't equipped to be the one to do that just yet. 

Stay safe! I hope you wear a helmet every time you get near this mare..


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I do think the op is spoiling her horses badly, and needs to learn how to properly interact in a way the horses can respect.

however. This horse has gone past disrespect(biting, kicking out) into aggressive behaviour (striking, rearing). Aggressive behavior NEEDS a firm, experienced hand. This horse is dangerous, not because she's a time bomb, or naturally aggressive, or unpredictable, but because she's been allowed to get this way. She's tried communicating in progressively more and more obvious ways that the op is 1) not respected in any way, and 2) overstepping the bounds of her authority disrespectfully, which in the horse world results in discipline. The difference is that other horses would have recognized this mare as leader long ago, given her the space and respect she demanded and be living in a happy herd.

This relationship is like the really annoying colt that just doesn't get the memo and keeps bugging the lead mare. Eventually she's going to kick the crap out of him and he'll clue in. unfortunately for the human and horse in this scenario, its going to mean an ER visit for one, and a bullet/injection/trip to the slaughter house for the other.


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

I agree with what most posters have already said, so I won't repeat it. 

This mare sounds to me like she was never taught to treat humans differently than horses and maybe is a bit immature mentally. I don't see anything severely wrong with her that a trainer or experienced handler couldn't fix with some very firm boundaries.


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

*Ovarian Cysts?*

Yeah, I can understand why you guys want me to sell her because she might just be too dominant for me. I want a horse with the personality and submissiveness of a big puppy dog, like Trigger. She is an extremely dominant horse. As a four year old, she is the lead mare of a bunch of older mares, who have been in that paddock longer than she has. But I guess I'm going to have to learn how to handle her differently, because there's no way I could sell her. Even if I sold her to a trainer I would be worried she would end up at some point in her life in a bad place, or on a slaughter truck, because in this economy even good horses can end up there. 

The crowhopping isn't a big deal, they are annoying but easy to sit, HOWEVER it does become a big deal when I can barely canter down the rail without 10 crowhops. Other than that though, walking and trotting is fine. She is a pleasure to ride besides the crowhopping. It does seem like she's in pain when I'm cantering her, though I hope she's not. :-( Jaydee mentioned the possibility of her having ovarian cysts, I also have thought about that before. Though, I think ovarian cysts are more common in older mares or brood mares, I guess she could have one.. I should get that checked out too.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

If you won't sell her to a trainer or sell her period, the very least you can or should do for her is get a chiropractor out to see her IF the will work with a horse like her, to check her alignment. Thst much crowhopping only at certain gaits or uphill is a huge indicator of pain. Then, send her away for 2+ months of training with someone who can work with aggressive horses. Then you must get ground AND riding lessons from that trainer for YOU so that you don't undo all of the progress. She sounds like a horse who will take any ground you give her, so any backtracking will be your fault. To prevent that, learn to be a worthy leader so you can have a calm, respectful horse. 

When she comes back you need to learn that while she must respect you and never ever even think about thinking about lashing out, YOU need to respect her personality too. That doesn't mean be wary of her, but it does mean respecting that she is not a cuddly horse.

I had one just like yours, who was very dominant and wasn't touchy feely. She loved to work and was a dream to train under cart, but she got NASTY if she didn't want to be scratched or brushed or hugged. She was very bitey and would bite, kick, rear, etc to make a point. That didn't work for me so I did intense training with her where she got walloped hard for even pinning her ears at me or aiming her face at me. because of her personality I couldn't let her get away with anything. However, once I had her under control, I respected that she doesn't like being coddled, and I made a point not to do excessive hugging, petting, etc. If I DID, I expected perfect compliance, but I didn't purposely push her buttons to see how far I could go with toleration. I didn't hand treat her because it started nippy behavior, but she still got treats. I merely pit them in her feed tub. She didn't care! 

She rathered bonding with me while doing something useful instead of hand grazing, scratching, or braiding. That was OK. She never tried to hurt me again and I ended up selling her as a cart lesson horse because I knew despite her love for working, she wouldn't make a kids horse because she hated clinging. Instead she got to work with students but didn't have to deal with hugs and kisses. Its all about setting your horse up for success once the preliminary respect is gained.

If you just can't handle not cuddling and hanging out with her for no reason, her her ttasinrd and sell her as a work horse where she can get her job done and go on her merry way afterwards. Then buy a horse who doesn't mine the attention. But do not try to conform this mare into a horse like Charlie. She never will be.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I would get a vet check, but I agree there are DEFINITELY handler issues here.

If you're calling her dangerous she's too much for you and you need to get rid of her.

Cherie's post was _excellent_. Horses tolerate you handing and cuddling with them the same way they tolerate you pinching and poking them. They don't _like _it. This mare has decided you're obnoxious and she needs to make you behave and so far she's been pretty good at it.

Your other horse seems to be more laid back, but remember, he's a horse not a dog. He "tolerates" it too.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

sunshade said:


> Yeah, I can understand why you guys want me to sell her because she might just be too dominant for me. I want a horse with the personality and submissiveness of a big puppy dog, like Trigger. She is an extremely dominant horse. As a four year old, she is the lead mare of a bunch of older mares, who have been in that paddock longer than she has. But I guess I'm going to have to learn how to handle her differently, because there's no way I could sell her. Even if I sold her to a trainer I would be worried she would end up at some point in her life in a bad place, or on a slaughter truck, because in this economy even good horses can end up there.
> 
> *The crowhopping isn't a big deal,* they are annoying but easy to sit, HOWEVER it does become a big deal when I can barely canter down the rail without 10 crowhops. Other than that though, walking and trotting is fine. She is a pleasure to ride besides the crowhopping. It does seem like she's in pain when I'm cantering her, though I hope she's not. :-( Jaydee mentioned the possibility of her having ovarian cysts, I also have thought about that before. Though, I think ovarian cysts are more common in older mares or brood mares, I guess she could have one.. I should get that checked out too.


This is where you are hugely mistaken. Crowhopping is a very big deal. Bad behavior is like cancer, it may start in one area but it will spread everywhere else if you don't take are of it right away. If you let her crow hop, then it will turn into bucking, then rearing, then whatever else she might start doing.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Anytime you have to say…..she is great EXCEPT…." you have a problem. It just happens you have a very big one. I have one horse like Trigger, and now have one like the one Endiku describes. He probably would be as nasty as your mare if I had let him have an inch. I have accepted that he has to be handled EVERY time in a way that demands respect. BO, helpers….all have permission to correct him as needed and not let him get away with anything. He has improved 1000%…but I started with a trainer for 6 months when I got him. I spent EVERY DAY there watching and learning. It has been 2 years and he has gotten nothing but better. But-if you do not have the time and dedication as well as support from the others who handle her-you may not be as successful. Consistency is the key, and do not make excuses for her behavior. Period.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Agreed. 

When you have a horse misbehaving, it doesn't matter how good they are at everything else. It ONLY matters that they are misbehaving


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

What I mean is, crow hopping isn't a big deal compared to things like rearing or bolting. Yes, it can turn into a big deal if not corrected, but I'm going to stop riding her for now until I figure out what her physical problems are. She may have an ovarian tumor or possibly a soreness in her back.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

sunshade said:


> What I mean is, crow hopping isn't a big deal compared to things like rearing or bolting. Yes, it can turn into a big deal if not corrected, but I'm going to stop riding her for now until I figure out what her physical problems are. She may have an ovarian tumor or possibly a soreness in her back.


She MAY have a physical problem but you're not reading 90% of these posts when they say THIS IS A TRAINING PROBLEM, NOT a health problem. 

You're letting this mare take full advantage of you and that is why she is acting the way she is. I would get a trainer too while you're forking out money to see if your horse has tumors.


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## Chicalia (Nov 5, 2013)

Cherie's post was beyond excellent. Please find a trainer to work with before you get hurt!

Just one thing to add on dealing with the situation... There's no way I would get on a horse that doesn't _first_ respect me on the ground.

Final thought... I would suggest picking up the book How to Think Like a Horse by Cherry Hill. A book is BY NO MEANS a replacement for a competent trainer who will teach you how to handle and correct your horse's aggressive behavior. However, it would be a good idea for you to read and study horse behavior more so that you understand how the situation you are in escalated to this point.http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

There are many horses, people, you name it-that have pain. That is not an excuse for bad behavior. Sorry, but I do not subscribe to that koolaid.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> There are many horses, people, you name it-that have pain. That is not an excuse for bad behavior. Sorry, but I do not subscribe to that koolaid.


Wait, you mean I actually have to start being NICE to people now?


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

Franknbeans, I'm not trying to deny that this horse doesn't have behavioral problems,(The biting and everything else is definitely behavioral problems) but there also may be a physical problem too. You say that is not an excuse for her crowhopping, but I disagree. What if you were a horse and everytime someone tried to canter you it felt like someone was sticking a needle in your back? Wouldn't you buck or crowhop, anything to try to relieve the pain? I'm not saying that its 100 percent certain she is crowhopping out of pain because it could definitely be a behavioral problem, but there is a possibility for it


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi;

I just want to say that I know you think that if you hadn't moved out of the way your horse would have come down hard on you, I don't think so. Horses seem very good at knowing what their kicks etc are doing and how hard. So if she didn't break your leg when she kicked you it means she didn't intend to. If she kicked at you and didn't make contact it is because she chose not to make contact. Not that you were fast enough to avoid it. So the scary thing about this is that maybe next time she will decide to make contact. I hope you seem my point. 

I have gone through and am going through a similar situation but I was a first time horse owner getting a neglected/abused older extremely dominant mare. She never did try to kick or bite me but did a huge amount of dangerous activities that resulted in her getting hurt. 

It has been three years almost that I have owned her and I am finally realizing that, with the help of an excellent trainer working with us twice a week, and being at our disposal in case of emergency. I had to completely change the way I thought about horses. About my horse. 

My horse didn't want a buddy or a pal. She didn't want someone to hang on her, although she did tolerate it. She wants a leader who in case of a fire will be calm and say "we get out this way" and then she will follow. She doesn't want a person screaming that they don't know what to do and "it is a fire!!!". I had to basically try to change the person I am and how I react to everything. It is hard to do and I make mistakes too. But I know that a mistake isn't the end of the world and if I own it I can still keep respect. 

I only walk my horse with a coach whip. When I stop if she doesn't stop I very calm demand she stop and she does. She may have more respect for the whip than me but it is okay for now. The rest will come. 

Long gone are the days of hand feeding and treats and funny stuff that really wasn't funny. It is no longer something to laugh at if she knocks the top of my hair when I am stopped talking to someone. She no longer does it. 

How does the above help you? Just trying to convey that the right trainer is the most important thing you can do. I went through about 7 till I got this one. 

You have to be hard but fair with a horse. But you also have to keep safe. They can kill you if they chose to. My horse has never deliberately tried to hurt me, ever. I get to feeling like it is hopeless sometimes but not as much lately. By hopeless I mean just keeping her out of stressfull situations. Had she ever tried to hurt me I don't think I could have or would have kept her. It is just to dangerous as they can in one second kill you. 

I think you need to find a trainer that is good. Get referrals and maybe as someone suggested send her into training for a few months. But also you need to learn all you can about equine behavior and start all over fresh with her when she comes back.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

sunshade said:


> Franknbeans, I'm not trying to deny that this horse doesn't have behavioral problems,(The biting and everything else is definitely behavioral problems) but there also may be a physical problem too. You say that is not an excuse for her crowhopping, but I disagree. What if you were a horse and everytime someone tried to canter you it felt like someone was sticking a needle in your back? Wouldn't you buck or crowhop, anything to try to relieve the pain? I'm not saying that its 100 percent certain she is crowhopping out of pain because it could definitely be a behavioral problem, but there is a possibility for it


My best friends horse has kissing spine. If you do not know what that is, read about it. She had varying degrees of pain the last couple of years being ridden(she is no longer being ridden at all) but NEVER would she behave like this. She knew it would not be tolerated, and she would have to work harder. And when not being ridden-she is the sweetest mare around. Always. 

I am sorry, but I see too many people who make way too many excuses for bad behavior, be it human or horse. My horse is the ultimate example of someone constantly making excuses for him biting, kicking, bolting……and she still does whenever she (the past owner) sees him. THis is a 1000#(+) animal who can kill you easily. You may not like Saddle bags honesty, but sometimes the truth hurts. You do your horse no favors at all. Think about what will happen if/when she does hurt you and her future is in someone else's hands…and she is labeled as a "dangerous horse". Nothing good, most likely.

Just read here how many "abused" horses there are on here…….90% of the time it is an excuse for pookie to get away with bad behavior.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Agree. It's like a horse being a complete a** on the crossties because of bugs. Yes, be aware, flyspray, however that's not an excuse to run you over.

No matter what there is NO excuse for dangerous behavior.

I DO think it's good to have a vet check and if you suspect she's in pain discontinue what you're doing (riding) that may be causing her pain. Be compassionate. However, compassion does not mean she's allowed to be a total b*tch. It's rude, it's obnoxious, it causes issues beyond the issues (now she think it's ok to be a b*tch when she's not feeling bad) and MOST importantly. It's flat out dangerous.

I do what I can for them, I try and baby them in every way possible if there is a genuine issue. I NEVER allow them to get away with bad behavior. I will do everything I can for them and in exchange they are expected to behave, no matter what. And yes, I do mean that literally.

Be compassionate, don't push it if she's hurting. But she MUST behave.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I do not think the OP is trying to make excuses. it is a matter of having a realistic perspective, such as Cherie and some others are encouraging her to take.


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## clumsychelsea (Jul 9, 2014)

My only advice is that horses are not dogs and should never ever be treated like one. They are not even remotely similar and the same principals that apply to having a dog as a pet could get you seriously injured or worse if you treat a horse the same. Horses are horses and that's as simple as it is. You need to learn more about horse behaviour and how they interact and stop humanizing them. They do not think the same as us nor do their emotions work in the same ways. You might think spoiling your horse with affection will make her "love" you, but that's just not how it works with these animals.

You really need to invest in a competent trainer that can train both your horse AND yourself. It won't do any good to send her off to a trainer just to have her come back to the same owner that she's been taking advantage of. You're in a dangerous situation right now and you need to make responsible decisions to assure your safety in the future. If you are not willing to do the training for your horse and yourself, selling is likely your best option.


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

franknbeans said:


> My best friends horse has kissing spine. If you do not know what that is, read about it. She had varying degrees of pain the last couple of years being ridden(she is no longer being ridden at all) but NEVER would she behave like this. She knew it would not be tolerated, and she would have to work harder. And when not being ridden-she is the sweetest mare around. Always.
> 
> I am sorry, but I see too many people who make way too many excuses for bad behavior, be it human or horse. My horse is the ultimate example of someone constantly making excuses for him biting, kicking, bolting……and she still does whenever she (the past owner) sees him. THis is a 1000#(+) animal who can kill you easily. You may not like Saddle bags honesty, but sometimes the truth hurts. You do your horse no favors at all. Think about what will happen if/when she does hurt you and her future is in someone else's hands…and she is labeled as a "dangerous horse". Nothing good, most likely.
> 
> Just read here how many "abused" horses there are on here…….90% of the time it is an excuse for pookie to get away with bad behavior.


Not all horses handle pain the same way, and some are tougher than others. And yes I do know what kissing spine is. My previous thoroughbred(he past away), was sensitive to pain, especially in his feet. If he stepped on a pointy rock he would be lame for days. But he was a great horse. He always performed well, but would occasionally get sore in the back. When he was sore in the back he would buck when I rode him. After the chiropractor came out and fixed him up, he was all back to normal. I'm NOT saying that whatever physical problem she may have is an excuse for her biting, kicking, or whatever. That is pure behavioral issues. There are no excuses for that. But bucking and crowhopping may be a natural reaction to alot of pain. Similiar to how we would flinch or jump backwards if someone stuck a needle in our back. But we don't know for sure whether she's crowhopping out of pain or if she's just being a jerk, so I have to get the vet out soon, and start looking for a trainer also.
_
"__My best friends horse has kissing spine. She had varying degrees of pain the last couple of years being ridden(she is no longer being ridden at all) but NEVER would she behave like this. She knew it would not be tolerated, and she would have to work harder."_ 
*If your friends horse bucked or something, why in the world would they make her work harder if she was bucking/crowhopping out of pain? To put her in even more pain? To me that is plain cruelty. *


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Agree. It's like a horse being a complete a** on the crossties because of bugs. Yes, be aware, flyspray, however that's not an excuse to run you over.
> 
> No matter what there is NO excuse for dangerous behavior.
> 
> ...


_"Agree. It's like a horse being a complete a** on the crossties because of bugs. Yes, be aware, flyspray, however that's not an excuse to run you over._"
*I dont really agree with the part you said about its like "*a _horse being a complete a**__on the crossties because of bugs_.*" Of course flies and bugs aren't a reason a horse should run you over in the crossties, thats completely unacceptable. BUt I think backpain is more understandable because we really dont know how much pain she could possibly be in everytime I get on her back.*
*She could have a pinched nerve or a swollen ovary that may be causing complete agony. And her little crowhops may be her sign of reacting to it. Crowhops are a lot less dangerous than getting run over by a horse, I'm not saying crowhops can't turn into something more dangerous though. Like big bucks or bolting. I will go and find a trainer though to help me with the behavioral issues, and a vet to see if theres anything wrong in her back*. 

I DO agree with you about being compassionate but assertive. :think:
Actually your post helped me alot because I'm starting to realise I have been babying her too much. I hate hitting her hard, but since a slap isn't really getting the point across to her I'm going to have to hit alot harder if she tries to bite me or something again.


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## Elsa5 (May 4, 2014)

Honestly I feel terrible punishing my mare when she acts out but she needs firm boundaries. But if she tries to bite me I look at it as thats the LAST time shes ever going to do it. 

As bad as it sounds they are 1200 lb animals and you HAVE to get the point across that you are in charge, sometimes a little slap just isnt enough for a horse like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

*Quick update on Grace!*

*I went to the barn today with a completely new attitude. No babying, and no treats at all. I didn't ride Grace because I'm not sure if there's an issue with her back yet, but I lunged the crap out of her because it doesn't seem to bother her at all without a rider on her back. 

Anyways I didn't allow her to move an inch while she was standing getting groomed before I lunged her. She usually wiggles a ton when I hose her off and she tries to bite the hose nozzle, but I slapped her hard a few times and made her stand perfectly still. She was respectful to me the rest of the day, and didn't get ****y when I went in her stall. I think she's getting the point.  I've been babying her too much. I just can't let her get away with the little things that Trigger does. Like sometimes Trigger will take a step foward while I'm grooming him, and I'll let him get away with that little step, and usually he'll just stay in the same spot after that. But if Grace makes one step and I dont do anything about it, she thinks she can get away with everything and anything. I think thats one huge mistake I've been making.
*


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## Mochachino (Aug 14, 2012)

I still think you need a trainer to work with this horse and then work with you WITH this horse. Also, I wouldn't be riding even if there is nothing wrong physically with it. You need to get the respect of this horse on the ground first. A lot of ground work needs be to done here, and I don't mean just a week....and I'm not talking about lounging. You need professional help and so does this horse. I also think that this horse is going to hurt you and it is just a matter of time for that to happen.


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

Yes, I agree and I'm still going to find a trainer. But in the mean time all I can do is work with her by myself. I don't think there's anything wrong with me lunging her though, if anything I thought it would help teach her that I'm boss, since I'm making her move. I also did alot of backing up with her today.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

sunshade said:


> _"Agree. It's like a horse being a complete a** on the crossties because of bugs. Yes, be aware, flyspray, however that's not an excuse to run you over._"
> *I dont really agree with the part you said about its like "*a _horse being a complete a**__on the crossties because of bugs_.*" Of course flies and bugs aren't a reason a horse should run you over in the crossties, thats completely unacceptable. BUt I think backpain is more understandable because we really dont know how much pain she could possibly be in everytime I get on her back.*
> *She could have a pinched nerve or a swollen ovary that may be causing complete agony. And her little crowhops may be her sign of reacting to it. Crowhops are a lot less dangerous than getting run over by a horse, I'm not saying crowhops can't turn into something more dangerous though. Like big bucks or bolting. I will go and find a trainer though to help me with the behavioral issues, and a vet to see if theres anything wrong in her back*.
> 
> ...


I'm glad I could help.

It's better for both of you to discipline appropriately. It may seem harsh but better to "man up" and get the message across than have the situation escalate. Later on it will be that more "violent" to correct her and the behavior will be more dangerous and that much harder to correct as she will of learned she doesn't have to. Horses are VERY much tough love.. and they will love and reward you for that.

Unfortunately, you are already "later on", however, it may not necessarily be too late. It's not just about hitting it's about scaring (not in a traumatic way) and use your arms and voice and get angry, then stop.. a quote I heard and don't quite remember was the horse goes to do something dangerous (bite/kick/lunge) and the person goes to correct them "make them think they are going to die. but do NOT EVER hit their face. _you're trying to kill them not blind them_. I promise you if you do this correctly- act swiftly and promptly when she misbehaves then instantly go back to normal she will NOT be traumatized by it. However, the danger at this point is she may fight back as she's learned it's ok.

You need to have timing and patience. Be unemotional when you handle her. You need to crack down on any disrespect, reward when she's good (NO treats, use your voice (calm "good girl") and maybe a soft stroke (as in pat).)

One of my horses is aggressive. If you baby him he will run all over you, if you are too assertive he will get worse (view you as a threat). We have a happy medium, but he is most definitely not a horse for a novice.

I do not believe your mare is "aggressive" just dominant, however, dominant behavior towards a human can easily kill you as you are seeing.

As was said, she has "put you in your place" time and time again, and the way this ends is with her losing her patience and giving YOU a CTJ (come to jesus) moment. You MUST change things before it gets to that point. As is she is a danger to you.

I would always carry a crop with you near her. Don't plan on using it but it would be good for getting her out of your space, and if she respects it maybe respecting you a little more. It's good to have it if she does something. Trust me it's better to whip her briefly and causing no lasting damage than to have her hurt you seriously, get hurt herself, shipped off to slaughter or sold as a dangerous horse, ending up who knows where.

Once you have established respect a simple "no" or "eh" is usually enough. Don't think hitting is the norm, but unfortunately at this point, there is no way she will listen to "no", and you must always give what you get, she tries to hurt you she needs to think she's going to die or she'll do it again.

Sorry for the essay... I would try to avoid confronting the issue head on until you have a trainer, it's likely she will get worse before she gets better and she may try to correct you for being "insubordinate". It can be even more dangerous.

A good trainer and a vet check are in order.

ETA- to get respect you must give respect. You love her for sure, but do you respect her? Do you respect that she's a large dangerous animal? Horses aren't intelligent in a human sense but they are very intelligent in a horse sense  you need to respect that. Don't think of her as "cute little pony" think of her as an animal who knows what she wants and how to get what she wants with (in her own way) every bit as much intelligence as you. When you think of her as.... a "submissive partner" you will be on the right track. I hope I'm wording that in a way that makes sense.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

sunshade said:


> *I went to the barn today with a completely new attitude. No babying, and no treats at all. I didn't ride Grace because I'm not sure if there's an issue with her back yet, but I lunged the crap out of her because it doesn't seem to bother her at all without a rider on her back.
> 
> Anyways I didn't allow her to move an inch while she was standing getting groomed before I lunged her. She usually wiggles a ton when I hose her off and she tries to bite the hose nozzle, but I slapped her hard a few times and made her stand perfectly still. She was respectful to me the rest of the day, and didn't get ****y when I went in her stall. I think she's getting the point.  I've been babying her too much. I just can't let her get away with the little things that Trigger does. Like sometimes Trigger will take a step foward while I'm grooming him, and I'll let him get away with that little step, and usually he'll just stay in the same spot after that. But if Grace makes one step and I dont do anything about it, she thinks she can get away with everything and anything. I think thats one huge mistake I've been making.
> *


I think you're starting to get it! I AM more lenient with horses that I know respect me more. However, some horses you can't be. Maybe someday you can be like that with her but not for awhile. I'm glad she responded so well. Make sure you reward her. She steps forward you move her back she responds-praise, move on. Repeat as necessary lol.

Be careful because she may still "fight back" as you do more.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

OP, I'll tell you what I told the chick at my old barn who tried to spread rumors that I abuse my horse because I smacked him on the butt for trying to kick me while I was picking his hooves.

Watch a herd of horses. See how hard they kick and nip at each other _in play_? Your little 90lbs (or however much you weigh) self will NEVER be able to hit your horse as hard as they do each other, even in play. Don't feel bad about disciplining a horse as hard as you need to. Obviously, in your case, your mare feels she can discipline you as hard as she would another horse.

My gelding is a draft cross. Little slaps are _nothing_ to him. If I have to get after him, I have to get after him HARD or it's just pecking at him. He pawed me in the thigh once (was trying to clip his bridle path). I happened to have a crop in my hand and I chased him backward while smacking him across the front legs so far and so fast, I'm sure he thought his world was going to end. That was three years ago. He's never even considered pawing at me again. Yet he still comes and puts his head in my lap when I'm sitting down on the mounting block after a lunging session. 

I do agree with Yogiwick to save any CTJs (Come To Jesus meetings) until you have a trainer working with you, though.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Sorry for the extra post, but I know several horses roughly her age who are going through a "teenage phase" even normally respectful horses may start challenging their handlers. She may be insecure and growing up and trying to find her place.

She IS still dangerous, I just don't want you to feel like you have a crazy aggressive horse, or that she completely hates you. She's just a dominant horse being a horse but there may be a little more behind it.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

You have had one good session, and seem to be getting the idea. Now, get her checked for pain, get a trainer and stay assertive. Good luck.


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## skiafoxmorgan (Mar 5, 2014)

I agree with everyone else here, and yes! What you have already discovered is that a horse is a very large animal with great potential to hurt you. They can't be really hurt by our hundred and fifty pound bodies, but we can be killed with a single kick. My mare had a bad problem --very bad-- with saddling. She'd jump ON me or pin me against the barn wall. She had zero respect for handlers on the ground. EXCELLENT riding horse. It took one CTJ meeting after I signed her lease for her to learn I was different. I used a lunge whip and a chain over her nose, and the moment she budged, boy did she get backed. Other ladies at the barn suggested treats to get her to stand still, but in my world, it's HER JOB to stand still when I ask her to. She didn't need bribes. She needed discipline. A few months later, everyone is in awe of how well she stands for me (and them, when they have to handle her), and they keep telling me that she is easier to lead in and out of the pasture and more respectful in her stall. 

Point is: my mare was opportunistic, smart, and generally only wanting to know who was in charge. So is your mare. Show her you are the boss, and you'll see a different animal.


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

*Update*

Just in case anyone was wondering if I ended up selling this mare or what not, I ended up keeping her.  She is doing wonderful. Though I never ended up finding a trainer, we've been working on lots of groundwork and lunging for the past months and she has turned into a completely different horse, both on the ground and in the saddle. No more aggressive behavior.

Also I know some people were trying to tell me this was a behavioral problem only, and not a physical problem, but actually it was both. I found out her grumpiness and crowhopping during the canter was because she had a wolf tooth that still needed to come out, and also she is very sensitive to rocks in her front feet, so she needed pads put in her shoes. She is doing much much better now.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

In your initial post you were treating this horse like a pet dog. She is a horse. Handle her like one. No nonsense and all business. No petting and crap like that. You go in the paddock, put the halter on her and do something. Don't dilly Dally around. Work her. Groom her. Put up with no nonsense. When you are done, put her away and walk away. Seems that is about what you did and it worked. 

IMO all horses should be handled thusly. 

If you want a pet, go to the shelter and rescue a nice dog or a nice cat and love on them all you want. They need it. Horses don't.


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## megs93 (Aug 21, 2014)

I'm so glad that things worked out! A lot of people (including myself) wouldn't have had the guts to take on those problems. She's lucky to have you  

I've had my mare for 10 years now and at first she was also a bit of a problem child (not as bad as yours though) and believe it or not, taking out her wolf teeth also solved a lot of issues. I think horses are also very receptive to in-hand interaction (my opinion anyway) so I'm sure that did wonders in building up your relationship.

So nice to hear a happy ending!


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

*Horse ARE pets*



Elana said:


> In your initial post you were treating this horse like a pet dog. She is a horse. Handle her like one. No nonsense and all business. No petting and crap like that. You go in the paddock, put the halter on her and do something. Don't dilly Dally around. Work her. Groom her. Put up with no nonsense. When you are done, put her away and walk away. Seems that is about what you did and it worked.
> 
> IMO all horses should be handled thusly.
> 
> If you want a pet, go to the shelter and rescue a nice dog or a nice cat and love on them all you want. They need it. Horses don't.


What?.. Horses *are* pets. At least in my opinion. What else would they be? Machines? That's kind of what it sounds like you are implying. I don't just work my horse and then put her away. I spend time with her and hang out with her in the field. However I made my mistake by doing that before I had established my role as leader. :| After I established myself as leader and she trusted me more I began spending time in the field with her again. And frankly, I think she enjoys it because she chooses to stand with me instead of hanging with the herd and eating grass.  I also cuddle and rub her head, but only when she wants it. Horses *do* need love and pettings, well maybe not all horses appreciate it, but many do. 

There is a pony in the field next to my horse that comes up for attention and cuddles every day when we see eachother. Everytime I go into his paddock he comes up to me and rests his muzzle against my cheek and just buries himself into my arms, and he will literally just stay like that for what feels like hours. I never even give him treats he just comes up to me to rest his head and cuddle. I'm _not_ saying all horses and ponies are like this, and some horses are just not that "touchy feely" type. 

I think even if you have a horse that doesn't like to be all that touchy feely with you, if you have established yourself as leader and they trust you, I think they would enjoy your company if you hung out with them in the field, it would be a good bonding experience too. I want my horses to see me as not just their leader but their pal also. I've seen people like you go out to the paddock and go get their horse to work them, and their horse runs away from them, because they only take out their horse to work them.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I never heard about "bonding" with a horse until I came on this forum. After reading about "bonding" with your horse I have come to believe it is mostly anthropomorphism combined with wishful thinking. 

My horses all worked. Even when I fox hunted and was a kid in Pony Club. I made it clear that we had a job to do. It did not mean the job had to feel like work (tho sometimes it did). It could mean having fun or something enjoyable for the horse. It is that fact that made them catchable. 

But no. Even though my horse(s) were the center of my very being, they were NOT pets. They were livestock. They ARE livestock. 

This is not meant to imply I did not love them. Most assuredly I did. I cried when I lost them and worried to distraction when something was wrong. I enjoyed every moment with them... but no. They were not pets. They do not bond in the sense that a pet bonds with you (like a dog or a cat). 

Through it all I never ever forget they are 1200+ pounds of very athletic fast moving animal with a brain the size of a walnut. They will always give me great pleasure.. but if one kills me in an instant (and that is always possible when working with horses) that horse will neither pine for or miss me or feel regret. 

I had a dog that had to go and live with my parents. Wonderful dog. She was my Father's hearing dog. Yet.. in her soul she was MY dog. For 6 months after starting her job with my Father during her non working time she would sit at the top of the driveway waiting for me to come back. That is a bond. 

No horse would do that. 

If you want a "bond" get a good German shepherd puppy.


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

Elana said:


> I never heard about "bonding" with a horse until I came on this forum. After reading about "bonding" with your horse I have come to believe it is mostly anthropomorphism combined with wishful thinking.
> 
> My horses all worked. Even when I fox hunted and was a kid in Pony Club. I made it clear that we had a job to do. It did not mean the job had to feel like work (tho sometimes it did). It could mean having fun or something enjoyable for the horse. It is that fact that made them catchable.
> 
> ...


Well, they may not bond exactly like dogs do, but it is certaintly possible to bond with them. Horses can bond with each other so why cant we bond with them? There are a bunch of geldings in one of the fields at the barn I board at, and there are 2 geldings in the herd that are always at eachothers side. They are always grooming and grazing next to eachother. Why can't a human have the same bond with a horse like that? Its completely possible. There are plenty of animals that have bonded with each other despite their difference in species, such as a hippo and a turtle, and Koko the Gorilla who bonded with a kitten. 
If reccomend watching this video.  This guy has an amazing bond with his horse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHyPWkg8POw

And also, you should see this one. A girl reunites with her horse after a long holiday abroad. You can see how happy the horse is and it comes running. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw-hCefkME8


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

sunshade said:


> Well, they may not bond exactly like dogs do, but it is certaintly possible to bond with them.* Horses can bond with each other so why cant we bond with them?* There are a bunch of geldings in one of the fields at the barn I board at, and there are 2 geldings in the herd that are always at eachothers side. They are always grooming and grazing next to eachother. Why can't a human have the same bond with a horse like that? Its completely possible. There are plenty of animals that have bonded with each other despite their difference in species, such as a hippo and a turtle, and Koko the Gorilla who bonded with a kitten.
> If reccomend watching this video.  This guy has an amazing bond with his horse.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHyPWkg8POw
> 
> ...


Because we are not horses. We are humans

Also that first video is *not* a bond. That is a well trained horse that I'm sure took many months to maybe a few years to master. Many people mistake a well trained horse and a good handler as "bond". When really it's all about communication and how well these 2 things work together. When you're seeing is training. Not a bond.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Could this thread please not be turned into a discussion on bonding - we already have several current ones on that topic if members want to express their views on the subject


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

.Delete. said:


> Because we are not horses. We are humans
> 
> Also that first video is *not* a bond. That is a well trained horse that I'm sure took many months to maybe a few years to master. Many people mistake a well trained horse and a good handler as "bond". When really it's all about communication and how well these 2 things work together. When you're seeing is training. Not a bond.


That's why so many people get SERIOUSLY hurt or killed by attempting these videos... Oh my horse loves me I should do this! :/

While I do not agree 100% with Elana, she is far more on track than you realize OP. That is part of the problem. And please do NOT try the above at home...


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Notice the man in the video with the stallion actually shows excellent handling skills. 
He keeps his eye on the stallion at all times. 
He has a whip. 
He uses body language to dissipate confrontation while maintaining control. 
He makes sure the loose horse is paying attention and keeping distance. 
He makes sure he is watching the horse and making the horse keep distance. 

That was an excellent video of how to act around a loose horse. On several occasions that horse considers running past and kicking.. it is just written all over the horse.. and the handler intercedes with whip and/or body language and redirects the energy. 

This is excellent excellent horse handling skills. 

The video of the blanketed horse coming is nothing special. I do not like the horse nibbling on the handler and that is poor handling and poor demonstration of leadership (from the handler)/respect (from the horse). That is what you want to avoid that can lead to problems (the nibbling, not the coming to her). 

My horse(s) would come thundering in at a whistle and stand for haltering and then lead nicely. That whistle could call them even if the horse was sold and in someone else's lot for several months. Horses have good memories!


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

sunshade said:


> Well, they may not bond exactly like dogs do, but it is certaintly possible to bond with them. Horses can bond with each other so why cant we bond with them? . Because we are predators, and horses are prey. Just looking at us they know we are predators. There are a bunch of geldings in one of the fields at the barn I board at, and there are 2 geldings in the herd that are always at eachothers side. They are always grooming and grazing next to eachother. Why can't a human have the same bond with a horse like that? Its completely possible. There are plenty of animals that have bonded with each other despite their difference in species, such as a hippo and a turtle, and Koko the Gorilla who bonded with a kitten.
> If reccomend watching this video.  This guy has an amazing bond with his horse.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHyPWkg8POw
> 
> ...


Because we are predators, and horse are prey. Horse instinctively know we are predators just by looking at us. It is all about our eyes.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Another thing I want to point out- note how both horses stop/are stopped before entering the human's space. This is HUGELY important.

(I don't see this love bond in the second video either. The horse seems happy sure, but the horse is clearly trained to come/would do so otherwise)


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am glad that things are working well. 

There are many very knowledgeable people on this forum that try to offer advice. They can only say as they interpret from what is written.

One thing that I can do and do well is instinctively know when I see a horse misbehaving, is whether it is pain related and an effort to try and tell us or, if it is just plain naughty behaviour. Something that you cannot do from just reading a post.

I too had a very difficult mare that was ridiculously hard to hold and fought the bit like a lunatic. The first time I rode her was to follow Foxhounds and I ended up setting the reins on her noseband and having a much better ride and control. 

I knew the problem was in her mouth - which in turn had driven her to a distressed mental state. Her molars felt fine, it wasn't until I put pressure on the bars where wolf teeth might be that I could feel a broken wolf tooth. 
As wolf teeth are the only equine teeth that have full nerves, this must have been like biting on silver paper. 

I had the tooth extracted and after a short time she was a wonderful ride.


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

sarahfromsc said:


> Because we are predators, and horse are prey. Horse instinctively know we are predators just by looking at us. It is all about our eyes.


Who says predators and prey cannot bond with eachother? Look at this friendship between a deer and dog. I've never heard of anyone say humans can't bond with prey animals before.
Dog and deer share a beautiful bond. [VIDEO]


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Another thing I want to point out- note how both horses stop/are stopped before entering the human's space. This is HUGELY important.
> 
> (I don't see this love bond in the second video either. The horse seems happy sure, but the horse is clearly trained to come/would do so otherwise)


I get what your saying but the same thing happened to my sister and her horse. My sister's horse has never been trained to come to her in the field, and he will just stand there and wait if he sees his owner coming to him. He never comes running up. We go to the barn everyday but my sister went on vacation for a week and when she came back, as soon as he saw her he came running up to her and stopped.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

sunshade said:


> I get what your saying but the same thing happened to my sister and her horse. My sister's horse has never been trained to come to her in the field, and he will just stand there and wait if he sees his owner coming to him. He never comes running up. We go to the barn everyday but my sister went on vacation for a week and when she came back, as soon as he saw her he came running up to her and stopped.


I have a bond with my horses. I love them and they are bonded to me (note I did not say "love me"). However. The way a horse "loves" a person is VERY different then the way you would think of it. You will never get the same response as you would from a dog. If your dog loves you you are the sun moon and stars. You are everything, you are their "god". If a horse "loves" you (which is nowhere near as common I am talking very rare true bond) you are their friend and companion. Horses do not "worship" the way dogs do, they do not "idolize".

This is why I said I disagree with Elana because I do feel there is *some sort* of bond, but aside from that slight disagreement I feel Elana was very accurate with her statement.

This is coming from someone who has worked with and owned Arabians (known for being very personable and loyal) and "one people" horses. My Arab has what they call the "tent personality" he is in my pocket and would rather spend time with me then the other horses. We have a bond. My German Shepherd literally follows me like a shadow, sleeps by my side, is depressed when I leave and ecstatic when I return even if it's been 5 minutes, he is so in tune sometimes I swear he reads my mind. I am EVERYTHING to this dog.

I would not and could not expect that sort of mindless devotion from a horse. A dog has been bred for centuries to make people happy and be in tune with people. A horse has been bred to be "domestic" and to serve us. They also don't have pack mentality. Yes they have herd mentality, but that is VERY different.

When you try to use your pack mentality to work with the horses herd mentality you get issues such as I was hanging out with her and she attacked me. You need to learn to understand "horse" and to never ever expect the horse to be anything other than a horse. You must communicate in their language.

It's a common problem as most people are far more used to dogs. They just do not understand, it is very difficult if you do not have years of experience and training and intuition.

Also many many dogs just love people and are happy to meet people, no matter who. So humans have learned to expect that 99% of animals enjoy and desire their attention. Most horses have been trained to tolerate it. Very few actually enjoy it and the ones that do have handlers that communicate with them as horses and don't expect or want them to respond as dogs.

Sorry sort of went off on a tangent, but my point is that taking situations you are used to and applying them to situations you are not used to can be very dangerous, and is not really fair.

We are talking apples and oranges with horses and dogs. They are both mammals, that's about the only similarity and they are as mentally different as they are physically. They can "have a bond" but it is NOT at ALL the same bond.

You want to give your horse TLC go for it. Just remember she is a HORSE.


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## Starcailer (Aug 22, 2014)

I have no idea if anyone mentioned this, but I had a friend who had a 5 y/o mare who acted this exact way. Kicking, biting, charging at EVERYONE. All the time. I once tried to do her a favor and blanket her horse for her, and the horse almost killed me because I was having a CTJ meeting with her so she would stand still...she charged me and bit my arm, I was lucky that was all that was done. I also never touched her again, and she never got better. My friend ended up giving the mare away...however.. we did find out that her ovaries had cysts on them. It caused a lot of pain and behavior problems. Apparently her new home got her ovaries taken out and she was a completely new horse.

Horses that bite are aggressive. Horses dont bite as a first warning. They bite to kill. I would honestly just get rid of her, or of course, find a trainer you can work with.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Starcailer said:


> I have no idea if anyone mentioned this, but I had a friend who had a 5 y/o mare who acted this exact way. Kicking, biting, charging at EVERYONE. All the time. I once tried to do her a favor and blanket her horse for her, and the horse almost killed me because I was having a CTJ meeting with her so she would stand still...she charged me and bit my arm, I was lucky that was all that was done. I also never touched her again, and she never got better. My friend ended up giving the mare away...however.. we did find out that her ovaries had cysts on them. It caused a lot of pain and behavior problems. Apparently her new home got her ovaries taken out and she was a completely new horse.
> 
> Horses that bite are aggressive. Horses dont bite as a first warning. They bite to kill. I would honestly just get rid of her, or of course, find a trainer you can work with.


Did you read the thread through?

"Horses that bite are aggressive. Horses dont bite as a first warning. They bite to kill."

While I understand the meaning of this statement this is VERY vague and may be taken more generally than it's meant.


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## Pagancat (Feb 11, 2013)

OP, I have some sympathy for what you're dealing with. It has taken me years to figure out what some of the other folks here are telling you, and I am still learning. It's amazing that I haven't gotten hurt badly in the past 8 or so years. I've been over-horsed, green-on-green, completely deluded about horses and only ended up being black and blue about a month ago - and it was completely my fault and I knew better. Just a blind moment of stupidity.

Anyway, I just wanted to say that although some of the posts might seem harsh, I haven't seen any that were wrong. I hope it takes the edge off when you trust that the advice is meant to shock you into changing before you are badly hurt or killed. And that they cared enough to try to help.

It sounds a lot like you've made progress. Good for you! But don't let that blind you to the need to find a good trainer. You'll get so much farther, so much faster, I promise - when you find a good one, that is.

Best of luck to you!http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

sunshade said:


> Who says predators and prey cannot bond with eachother? Look at this friendship between a deer and dog. I've never heard of anyone say humans can't bond with prey animals before.
> Dog and deer share a beautiful bond. [VIDEO]


My dog chases deer.

I didn't say humans cannot bond with horses. I said horses are instinctively wary of humans. 

Ever read the story about the man who tried to rope a deer? Wish I could find it. Funny as heck.

I prefer my horse knows i am a predator. Keeps him out of my space unless I invite him in.

He trusts me due to the fact I haven't cooked him yet..........read whatever you want into that, or try to see my tongue firmly planted in my cheek.

You can do as you please with yours.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I find it funny how people talk about how devoted and loving their dogs are! My dogs are self centered and independent. They tolerate me but unless I do something for them like playing or something involving treats, they aren't really my friends.

My horses are much more bonded to me than my dogs. Although I always say my animals are backwards. My cats are very dog like and devoted to me, my dogs are independent like cats, and my horses are much like big puppy dogs in personality.

I believe a working relationship with a horse can involve a bond. I may ask for respect but I always try to make our interactions fun. that means we do lots of activities that don't involve work. Things like trick training, agility work, or simply going for a grass walk outside of the yard.

I only see problems arise when people tolerate dominant behavior. Trick training can be used with most horses as long as a person never rewards pushy behavior. 
Of course it shouldn't be done until you have a respectful horse. Ground work and ground manners should be completed first.


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## Starcailer (Aug 22, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Did you read the thread through?
> 
> "Horses that bite are aggressive. Horses dont bite as a first warning. They bite to kill."
> 
> While I understand the meaning of this statement this is VERY vague and may be taken more generally than it's meant.


Im sure people can figure out that I mean biting is a horses last resort and their most aggressive tactic employed to do the most damage. All I was getting at is horses arent usually "bite first, ask questions later" type of animals...and when you have one that is just biting all willy nilly, my first thought is that horse is trying to kill you.

I dont think anyone is going to take it _that_ generally, as we all know horses are not predatory animals.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Just didn't like the wording. I only know one horse I would call aggressive. In fact I wouldn't even say that I would say he has "aggressive tendencies" as he is psychotic or blindly trying to kill people. That horse is my own. He has never bitten me. I've been bitten multiple time and a lot of horses just learn to do it.

I agree that when the horse blindly goes after you to hurt there will be a million warning signs and the horse's fight or flight instinct has turned to fight. Horses don't bite "all willy nilly" and doesn't sound like the OPs horse was/is either.

Obviously not all horses bite, though of course any have the potential. It is a "non biter" suddenly biting that I would take far more seriously, as obviously there were signs missed.

I guess my point is it is the context of the bite that is relevant. Biting does not (always) equal aggressive. Biting does not (always) equal to kill.

Biting can and often is defensive (what I call defensive/aggressive, don't know what the proper term is). If a horse feels trapped they will lash out.

I agree in the OPs case the biting was not defensive and was the horse trying to put the annoying human in it's place (dominance *but not* necessarily aggression).

Again, I guess the wording just didn't agree with me.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

I started reading most of this thread, but stopped half way through so I apologize if I'm repeating something that's already been said. And I also apologize if everything I say sounds abrasive and forward, but I find myself getting more mad the more I think about this situation.

I mean, this is absolutely unacceptable behavior.

I definitely agree to getting pain checked out, however you mentioned this horse took a nice chunk of your leg between her teeth recently while NOT being ridden. This is not a pain issue - the crow hopping might be, but some of these other things most certainly are NOT pain related.

Let's put it this way, OP: your horse was been getting progressively worse in regards to the behavior. You have been letting her get away with each progression and she is now in the aggressive stage - very dangerous! She is disrespecting you BIG time and you are letting her walk all over you. Somehow, you ended up at the bottom of the pecking order when you should always be number one.

You also admit you have been babying her and are afraid of hitting her. Is she afraid of hitting and hurting you?

"Treat others the way you want to be treated" applies to horses too - especially when they have put you in the danger zone. You have not earned your horse's respect and so she is showing you none of it. It's time you took some control back.

Personally, if that were me when your horse bit my leg, I would have turned and kicked her so hard in the barrel she would literally have no idea what happened - mostly because she had been allowed to get away with behavior like that previously and would not have expected someone to retaliate.

But I have a very strong feeling she never would have bitten me again.

You need to 'one-up' your horse. If she bites, you bite harder. Show her who is boss before you get hurt.

I know this all sounds extreme, but to me this is the end of the line and you are in desperate times. I suggest you start carrying a crop around her. Next time she even tries to pull a stunt like this, correct it immediately.

My previous mare bit me on the shoulder once. I chased her around her pen for a good half hour and she felt the end of my lead rope (all I had with me) quite a few times. Needless to say she never bit me again. I'd also like to note this did not ruin our relationship - she was a sweet to me as ever, was not afraid of me, and not surprisingly, listened to me even better after.


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

WillowNightwind said:


> I started reading most of this thread, but stopped half way through so I apologize if I'm repeating something that's already been said. And I also apologize if everything I say sounds abrasive and forward, but I find myself getting more mad the more I think about this situation.
> 
> I mean, this is absolutely unacceptable behavior.
> 
> ...


Sorry, this thread has been going on for quite awhile now and I was planning on closing it but I forgot to, but I am going to now.
I guess you didn't see the updates I posted.
The problem with my mare has already been resolved. Grace is doing absolutely wonderful now. I found out she had a wolf tooth that needed to come out, and also she needed pads put in her front shoes because she was sensitive to rocks in her front feet. I never did find a trainer, but I lunged her and practiced groundwork with her everyday for two months, and she became a completely brand new horse. She's sweet now and there's no more aggression in her at all. Though its a bit disappointing she never ended up with the puppy-dog-follow-you-everywhere kind of personality like my other horse Trigger, I love her very much and she is such a pleasure both to ride and to handle!


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## sunshade (Jul 23, 2014)

*Thread finished*

Thanks to everyone who commented and shared their opinion.  I'm kinda new here so this is the first thread I've made and the discussion is over, so does anyone know how to close it/delete it? Or does a mod do that?


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

sunshade said:


> What?.. Horses *are* pets. At least in my opinion. What else would they be? Machines? That's kind of what it sounds like you are implying. I don't just work my horse and then put her away. I spend time with her and hang out with her in the field. However I made my mistake by doing that before I had established my role as leader. :| After I established myself as leader and she trusted me more I began spending time in the field with her again. And frankly, I think she enjoys it because she chooses to stand with me instead of hanging with the herd and eating grass.  I also cuddle and rub her head, but only when she wants it. Horses *do* need love and pettings, well maybe not all horses appreciate it, but many do.
> 
> There is a pony in the field next to my horse that comes up for attention and cuddles every day when we see eachother. Everytime I go into his paddock he comes up to me and rests his muzzle against my cheek and just buries himself into my arms, and he will literally just stay like that for what feels like hours. I never even give him treats he just comes up to me to rest his head and cuddle. I'm _not_ saying all horses and ponies are like this, and some horses are just not that "touchy feely" type.
> 
> I think even if you have a horse that doesn't like to be all that touchy feely with you, if you have established yourself as leader and they trust you, I think they would enjoy your company if you hung out with them in the field, it would be a good bonding experience too. I want my horses to see me as not just their leader but their pal also. I've seen people like you go out to the paddock and go get their horse to work them, and their horse runs away from them, because they only take out their horse to work them.


I completely agree with you 100% on this and I'm glad you posted it. I was biting my tongue reading some of the posts here. If you watch a herd of horses, you WILL see affection and cuddling going on. They can't wrap their legs around each other and give each other a hug, but they do a horse version of it ... breathing in each other's breath, touching noses, resting heads on necks, neighing to one another, standing close and just being together. Some of it's instinctual for protection, but not all of it. I actually feel sorry for people who look at their horses as work machines and nothing else. That's probably not the case for most people on this forum, but they exist out there for sure.

Glad to hear of your progress, by the way!! I'm a sucker for happy endings.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I might be dealing with semantics but to me the bond is what mother's have with their off spring. This is not the same connection with any other creature. I believe there can be a magnetic connection, an attraction but it's a thin line between what seems to be attraction and what is compliance and tolerance.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Saddlebag said:


> I might be dealing with semantics but to me the bond is what mother's have with their off spring. This is not the same connection with any other creature. I believe there can be a magnetic connection, an attraction but it's a thin line between what seems to be attraction and what is compliance and tolerance.


Don't forget dependance for food.


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

You are arguing semantics, but when I say _bond_, I mean more than compliance and tolerance.


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## cowgirlCRO (Mar 30, 2010)

In my years of working with my horses and I own two of them of which each of them came to me a total mess I have learned that with time, understanding, forgivness and compassion they turn around to become beautiful horses.

A good relationship can withstand anything a bad one not a single thing.

Focus on developing a relationship first and once that develops correct the bad behaviour. Praise your horse for every little step it does right and ignore the bad behaviour at the beginning. Almost EVERY bad behaviour except respecting your personal space. Teach her to move backwards off the lead line and once she does praise her by coming into her space and tapping her neck. Then just move away and share space with her.


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