# Please Critique Cochise (if you can) be mean even!



## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

:shock:The pics aren't great but I have no one to take the pic whilst I hold him and keep in mind HE WILL NOT BE BREEDING FOR ABOUT A YEAR I am not yelling just clarifying that so people wont think I am just letting him go at it.:shock:

I need him Critiqued because he is a stallion and I have quit a few people wanting to breed there mares to him, he is registered APHA under Two M Chief Bluestock.

look here:

Two M Chief Bluestock Paint 

I need to know if he has a good enough conformation because I don't want to put a whole bunch of unwanted and unusable babies out there. Please critique him the pics that are uploaded are from the night I bought him, he was dirty and he is about 250 lbs underweight right now, and at the moment he really needs some TLC so he wont be breeding for about a year or so until he gets back on his feet. Oh and please tell me what you think of his lineage?

(I don't care what your comments are as long as they are truthful I wont take offense, I am looking for honest opinions here)


Thanks for your time!


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## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

I love his markings! Cant critique tho


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

It's super hard to critique a picture where the horse is not squared up, especially when the camera is angled. If you get a picture of him standing square with the camera not an an angle but straight-on, we'd be more than happy to critique him. Right now though, you're going to get an unjust evaluation and things are going to seem like major confo faults when they're, in fact, nonexistant.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*I cant get the shots*



equiniphile said:


> It's super hard to critique a picture where the horse is not squared up, especially when the camera is angled. If you get a picture of him standing square with the camera not an an angle but straight-on, we'd be more than happy to critique him. Right now though, you're going to get an unjust evaluation and things are going to seem like major confo faults when they're, in fact, nonexistant.


even construed is better than nothing right now, give me something to work with, my friends are trying to crawl up my back asking me to breed there mares for his color (homozygous Overo Gene) thanks for looking though!


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm going to be honest, I'm no pro at this so take it as it is. I don't like his back end. He looks sickle hocked. His chest looks funny. It looks like he is built uphill. He kind of looks to be on the thin side or maybe wormy.... His butt needs to be filled in. His withers seem kind of odd to me. Maybe it's the way his neck ties into them... I'm not sure.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

ShutUpJoe said:


> It looks like he is built uphill.


When did that become a fault? being buillt uphill (withers higher then croup) is desireable in riding horses.

Personaly i think there is something wrong with his back end and from those photos alone I would say no he is not special enough to breed from. There are hundreds of Average stallions out there but i firmly believe that you should only breed the absolute best to the best to create quality youngstock. Breeding purely for colour is madness.

However, please dont take this as gospil untill you can get critique on a better confo shot of him in better condition.


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

What's special enough about him to breed him? There are plenty of accomplished, exceptional studs that have that coloration. 

It looks like he's standing under himself behind and there's something funny about his shoulder. Generally he could use a lot more muscle and better pictures but really... why WOULD you breed him?

Instead of trying to poke holes in him (which I'm not qualified to do) what is so special about him that warrants being bred on the opposite side? Just because it's possible and "passable" doesn't really mean much, does it? :S There are plenty "passable" horses out there, why contribute?


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## HorseOfCourse (Jul 20, 2009)

He looks both sickle hocked and cow hocked to me.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Again, maybe these comments wouldn't be so if the confo shots were half-decent. If your friends want to breed to him that bad and think he's so spectacular he's breeding quality, they can wait a few days for you to get some decent quality shots. I'm not going to even try to critique him right now because you won't like what you hear.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

are you freaking kidding me!! your honestly going to breed him. DEFINANTLY NOT BREEDING QUALITY AT ALL!!!!! GELD HIM GELD HIM GELD HIM!!!!! but but he can throw color, my friends want to bred there mares (which im sure there "stellar" looking to) freakin ridiculous. there are plenty of WELL COMFORMED, WELL BRED, PROVEN paint studs out there, and yours aint one of them. but i know you wont listen because none of them do, but maybe by being mean it will actually get threw to you.... worth a try.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Honestly, *based on these photos*, this horse should've been gelded "yesterday". He may not be, actually, as ill conformed as these shots make him look... but I can't say that for sure, and, if you had to have my answer right this minute, it would be this " Tell your friend's NO" and go over all the many reasons why simply breeding a horse for it's color is a waste of time and money - if you like a color pattern, go buy it. 

IF you can put up some good conformation shots of him, in good light, and they happen to reveal something that is "reproduction" worthy of him, or if he has a show record which PROVES he can perform... I would happily change that point of view. With the information and photos you've given though... snip snip. 

Do your friends want to breed to him because they figure (or you will) give them a break on the stud fee... or simply because he's colored? If it's the fact that they want a "cheap" breeding, remind them - please - of the time and expense that it takes to produce foals. Then there's always the risk of injury or death of the mare, and/or foal... and on your side, since I'm assuming it would be some form of live cover, risk of injury to your stallion as well. 

The rear shot indicates to me that this horse could use a little more fat covering as well - certainly before anyone considers using him as a stud. Breeding takes a lot of energy out of a stallion, so you most certainly don't want them starting lean. Use that as an excuse to your friends, if good common sense isn't good enough and doesn't reach them! 

Again, if you want a favorable, or more favorable, feedback then post your horse looking his best, or show us some show records, or photos/video of him doing "something" and then we'll see.


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## Rebelappy (Dec 22, 2008)

well im not really one to critiqe horses he does have a nice color but im sure these pics dont do him justice to what he maybe so personally i think he is pretty markings but looking at his breeding nothing really stands out to me personally ? how old is he is he still really young? I think there are alot of Stellar studs out there that would make Absoultly amazing Geldings that people could really enjoy and the horse can enjoy life too .. its my personal belive it takes a Exceptional horse to go on breed to pass that on to thier offspring i think ya did a good thing picking this guy up but i think by the looks of him in these pics he is in that Absoultly amazing gelding section .... i hope ya truely think this through as with the economy like it is there are TONS of horse out there that are homeless .. Is there maybe a Stud already standing thats related to you lil guy they could look at ? i say just really thin k it throw ask your farrier vet thier opinions and then decide dont let friends bully you in to a corner


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm going to have to side with Reining Girl and Last Unicorn. That stud is most certainly _not_ breeding quality. His head is big and clunky, his neck is too thick. He has a nest, meaning there is no definition between his neck and his chest. His shoulder is too steep, his back might as well be a 2x4 as straight and flat as it is and it also has a bit of a roach. His entire hind end is wonky; his croup is too steep, he is severely sickle hocked and cow hocked and, while it may be how he is standing, he also appears to have a dropped hip. That could be caused by either an injury or by a deformity.

Please geld him ASAP and don't breed him to anything. There are already millions of unwanted _good_ horses out there, we don't need more floating around that are less than mediocre.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

smrobs said:


> I'm going to have to side with Reining Girl and Last Unicorn. That stud is most certainly _not_ breeding quality. His head is big and clunky, his neck is too thick. He has a nest, meaning there is no definition between his neck and his chest. His shoulder is too steep, his back might as well be a 2x4 as straight and flat as it is and it also has a bit of a roach. His entire hind end is wonky; his croup is too steep, he is severely sickle hocked and cow hocked and, while it may be how he is standing, he also appears to have a dropped hip. That could be caused by either an injury or by a deformity.
> 
> Please geld him ASAP and don't breed him to anything. There are already millions of unwanted _good_ horses out there, we don't need more floating around that are less than mediocre.


 :clap:!


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## CinderEve (Oct 26, 2010)

I have to agree, those pictures don't do him any justice. He definitely isn't breeding quality. 

Why? Because he doesn't stand out as a top performance horse, you don't have any show records for him that you've posted here, why breed him and create an average foal in a backyard breeding situation that will most likely end up with a foal that ends up in a sale barn or kill pen. Or worse.

Geld him.


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## Cupcake (Nov 17, 2009)

He has cute markings. 

When you posted yesterday you said that he would be gelded on the 1st and that you were not going to be breeding him. What reasons lead you to make that decision? And what reasons have now caused you to reconsider your original plan?


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## simons161 (Nov 26, 2010)

snip snip... quick!!!he looks like a lovely gelding wanna be.... I have been a rescue volunteer and have seen tons nicer horses that went to kill... horrible yes, but most were backyard bred for just the same reasons... ooohhh nice color! or worse I like babies..... well once you've seen horses going to slaughter it gives you a very different picture of what should be a breeding stallion... ONLY exceptional individuals with a show record, correct conformation.. etc etc...


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

Oh hun, I'm going to tell you the same thing I told my son in law when he said he wanted a stallion. Keeping a stallion for breeding is a lot of work and expense. You can't treat them the same way you would a regular backyard horse. No matter how gentle they are, they can suddenly become extremely aggressive - toward another horse, or worse, toward a human being - resulting in injury and/or death to one or the other parties.

The son in law didn't listen to me and brought home a stallion, in spite of being told absolutely no stallions. Scooter is normally a real sweetie, but he has his moments, and therefore cannot be trusted. He's violently agressive toward geldings if they are in the same pasture as he is. He's fine with them as long as they are on the other side of the fence, but that presents a real problem for us as there is just not that much room for a lot of separate pens on our property.

Son in law also turned the stallion in with my mare, Dancer. We got a really cute filly as a result, but Dancer has had a really hard time of it. Not something you or your friends need to deal with. Not to mention that colts/fillies can be dangerous in their own right - without even meaning to be. Son in law's stud colt is terrible about biting and kicking - so now the grandkids can't go play in the pasture. Rain is a bit nippy - normal for a baby horse, but if she bites one of the grandkids, she could do some serious damage. The kids don't know what to watch for or how to react to it to prevent the bite.

Maintaining and breeding a stallion is not something that should be taken lightly, and certainly not by someone without adequate experience. Not saying you don't have it, but still...why?

Horses - good riding horses, are a dime a dozen in these parts. They have to be rescued every day from owners who no longer have the funds to adequately care for them. Is that something you would wish on your guy's babies? The ones I see being rescued are beautifully colored, and some are even beautifully bred from quality stock, so even the well bred ones often come to a bad end.

Even if it meant giving up Rain, if I could go back and prevent that breeding between son in law's poor quality but beautifully colored paint stallion and my Dancer, I certainly would - for Dancer's sake.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*Thanks everyone*

Thanks for the feedback and yes he was wormy and yes he is way underweight and yes I will get better shots up of him still not sure what i wanna do with him. thanks again!


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*New pics*

just for the record I have only had him since last Saturday that is one week, he is underweight and his feet need trimmed so what do ya think now!


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

He'd make a nice gelding.

looks like a nice riding horse, needs more muscle and weight though


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*oh yeah*



darkpaloma said:


> just for the record I have only had him since last Saturday that is one week, he is underweight and his feet need trimmed so what do ya think now!



his neck isn't built funny its his hair i cant make it lay down in that spot LOL


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I am sure he'll make a wonderful gelding but I honestly don't see anything in him that I would want to pass on to a foal.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

The new pictures, as I stated before, make a lot of impact. -BUT-

....he's still not breeding quality.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

faye I didn't say it was a fault. : / Just stated that it looked like he was uphill.


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## Tasia (Aug 17, 2009)

if you re read the OP she said her friend asked wether he was breeding quality.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I find it interesting that when the majority of horse owners get a "stud" they immediately think of breeding, making money and being able to say they own a stud. The average horseperson has no business owning a stallion and all that goes with one, strong fencing, being good enough to handle one, insurance for liability, all things that are needed to own a breeding stud. I have been around lots and lots of studs, most were very well behaved, even during breedings, but that is because they were trained from day one to be that way. The look like a breeding quality animal, have proved themselves before breeding, have wonderful bloodlines. Anyone can own a "stud" but to own a good quality stallion that people will really want to breed to is not for the average person.
I show dogs and breed them. I have had multiple champions, yet I only breed very rarely and only after all testing has been done and the dog passed. My male dog is not just bred to any female, the female has to be proven in the performance or breed ring, all tests done, etc. I am responsible for all my puppies produced for the life of the dog, I give genetic health guarantees, etc. When I do breed, it is carefully planned. It just drives me crazy that the average person who owns dogs has a male "whatever" that they will "stud" out to any female. They don't care about their puppies produced, just give the money and leave with your puppy and don't call back.
If you are going to breed ANY animal it should be the best to the best, not just a horse will balls breeding whilly nilly to a mare with a uterous.
In the case of your Paint, he is nice and loudly marked, but in no way is he a breeding quality horse. Geld him and enjoy him.


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

From what I understand. The OP wanted a critique because her friend wanted to breed to her stud. And the OP wanted to know if her stud was worthy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Body Length = 12.2
Shoulder Slope = 55.95 D
Shoulder Angle = 89.14 D
Scapula Length = 4.84 = 40% BL
Humorous Length = 3.25 = 67% of SL
Forearm Length = 2.75 = 85% of HL
Cannon Length = 2.22 = 81% of FL
Pastern Length = .98 = 44% CL
Back Length = 5.53 = 45% BL
Ribcage Length = 5.66 = 100% of back
Hip Length = 3.92 = 32% of BL
Femur Length = 3.57 less than HL
Pelvic Length = 4.15 more than HL
Neck Length = 6.59 = 54% of BL
I took the time to do this in hopes that you’ll be able to better understand why the general consensus is that Cochise needs to be gelded. 
He does have a fairly square body shape to him, which is a good thing, his shoulder slope is 55 degrees which is steep, his shoulder angle is 89.12 degrees which is a closed angle (90 degrees is “acceptable” 100 is better). He does have a long scapula - 40% of his body length, his humorous is too long, being 67% of the scapula. Now, I have said in other places that a long humorous is desireable, because it can give a horse longer strides, but the maximum we really want is about 60%. Overall, his steep shoulder and closed angle are helped by the length of his scapula, but the excess length of his humorous is going to make him a little “camped under” - even though is leg may appear verticle. 
His forearm length is 85% of his humorous which is great, but his cannon length is too long at 81% of his forearm length. The longer the cannon is, the weaker it is. His Pastern length is OK. 
What really becomes a major fault with this horse is his leg straightness, you can see, quite clearly that even though his foreleg is pretty straight, the plumb line doesn’t touch either the dot in the center of the knee or the one at the fetlock. This is going to put more strain on his legs than we’d like, and it’s certainly a trait I wouldn’t want to risk passing on to offspring. It may never bother him in his lifetime, depending on what you plan to do with him, or it may show up as he ages in the form of arthritis. Remember that horses carry most of their weight on their front legs. 
He has a nice back length, and he has a short loin, but he loses points for having a shallow loin girth. In a breeding stallion we want to make sure that any weaknesses they have won’t be likely to be passed on and turn into “critical weaknesses”. A lack of loin girth is going to reduce the strength of his loin, which in turn reduces the strength of his back. Again, something that may never affect him much in his lifetime, but, not something you want to pass on as paired with a longer loin or a less desirable LS placement and you’d end up with a foal with a weak back - since most Paints are used for riding, a strong back is essential to long term soundness. 
His hip is a little shy of being adequate - his femur is too short and his pelvis too long. This is all going to take away from his “motor”. While it’s not going to cause him any horrendous issues, it’s less than ideal - a lot of Paints have MUCH nicer hindquarters. If you follow the plumb line down his hind leg, you can see he’s camped out too - or rather, he has too much angulation to his hind limb. It might help HIM because it will help hide any gait challenges caused by the lack of hip length, but should he pass on his hip, but not his angulation you’d have a foal which may be much less than ideal. 
His neck is a little on the long side, I don’t mind it’s shape though. He needs some proper muscle put on it, but it ties in alright. 
Overall this horse would make a really cute gelding. He does have some “serious” faults, but, if you all you want is a nice pleasure horse, or a horse who you don‘t expect “big“ things from, he’ll be your man. He just isn’t worth reproducing, IMHO, simply because Paints are fairly common, and many are better put together than this one is, so there really is no reason to use this particular individual in a breeding program - just too much risk.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

thanks so much unicorn you gotta admit though not bad for 150 bucks lol


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

please spend the next $150 to GELD HIM!!!


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

darkpaloma said:


> even construed is better than nothing right now, give me something to work with, my friends are trying to crawl up my back asking me to breed there mares for his color (*homozygous Overo Gene*) thanks for looking though!


Why do you think he's homozygous Overo? He's definitely carrying Frame, which is lethal when homozygous, so he would not be alive if that were the case. He's also carrying Sabino and could possibly be carrying Splash, but doesn't look homozygous for either of those. I can't find pictures of his sire online, but I found his dam & she's 100% solid. Of course that doesn't mean she's not hiding sabino or splash, but only her sire was a paint, her dam was a QH, so she may not have inherited any pinto genes.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*The owners said that*



Quixotic said:


> Why do you think he's homozygous Overo? He's definitely carrying Frame, which is lethal when homozygous, so he would not be alive if that were the case. He's also carrying Sabino and could possibly be carrying Splash, but doesn't look homozygous for either of those. I can't find pictures of his sire online, but I found his dam & she's 100% solid. Of course that doesn't mean she's not hiding sabino or splash, but only her sire was a paint, her dam was a QH, so she may not have inherited any pinto genes.



Just out of curiosity were did you find his Dam at I would love to know. Thanks!


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*Gelding*



reining girl said:


> please spend the next $150 to GELD HIM!!!


I already posted another thread saying I am going to geld him come the first.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

reining girl said:


> are you freaking kidding me!! your honestly going to breed him. DEFINANTLY NOT BREEDING QUALITY AT ALL!!!!! GELD HIM GELD HIM GELD HIM!!!!! but but he can throw color, my friends want to bred there mares (which im sure there "stellar" looking to) freakin ridiculous. there are plenty of WELL COMFORMED, WELL BRED, PROVEN paint studs out there, and yours aint one of them. but i know you wont listen because none of them do, but maybe by being mean it will actually get threw to you.... worth a try.


Ditto for me

I would also add that he is on the thin side ......I can see his spine in the side pics and can see his hip bones from the rear pic

Super Nova


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

darkpaloma said:


> Just out of curiosity were did you find his Dam at I would love to know. Thanks!


https://www.horseclicks.com/horses/dzflhq/
I just googled her name & found her sale ad. She apparently ended up as a rescue.


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*ummm*



Quixotic said:


> https://www.horseclicks.com/horses/dzflhq/
> I just googled her name & found her sale ad. She apparently ended up as a rescue.


Very cool being to able to see his mother thanks!


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*I have already stated that*



Super Nova said:


> Ditto for me
> 
> I would also add that he is on the thin side ......I can see his spine in the side pics and can see his hip bones from the rear pic
> 
> Super Nova


I have decided to geld him and like I said he was kind of a rescue the people lost there jobs and couldn't take care of him anymore hence he is skinny but he has gained nicely over the week that i have had him Thank you


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Lol, darkpaloma, some people don't read every post and sometimes miss critical info like why a horse is thin and what you've decided to do. You are doing the right thing by him now. That's just how it goes. He's cute, and I'm sure he'll make a good riding horse once you get him back into shape. Good luck!


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## darkpaloma (Jun 14, 2010)

*Thank you*



apachiedragon said:


> Lol, darkpaloma, some people don't read every post and sometimes miss critical info like why a horse is thin and what you've decided to do. You are doing the right thing by him now. That's just how it goes. He's cute, and I'm sure he'll make a good riding horse once you get him back into shape. Good luck!



thanks alot everyone have a good Christmas !


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## reachthestars (Jul 2, 2010)

Late to the party here, but he if he didn't have his markings, he wouldn't even LOOK like a stock horse. He has a terrible hind end, and just the fact that he cost you $150 and was a rescue should be enough of a reason to be against breeding him - not that a horse from that situation can't be breeding quality, but 99.9% of the time, quality animals don't get into those situations.


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