# Shank Bit Advice?



## EthanQ (Sep 5, 2011)

I have a gelding who has always been rather hard mouthed. He would fight the bit, no matter what kind it was. So I went back to a snaffle and did lateral flexion. My 4H leader (horse project) said that since he's older than 3 years old, it is against the rules to ride him in a snaffle, and he has to have some kind of a shank, size doesn't matter, just has to be shanked. My trainer recommended an Argentina bit....How does it differ from a Tom Thumb? And I know the shorter the shanks the better, but are curved shanks softer or more aggressive? And should he have a broken snaffle type mouthpiece, or a solid curb mouthpiece? Anyone with advice or knowledge on this topic would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. EthanQ


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

There are a few indicators of a mild vs. severe curb bit. Any and all of this essentially refers to the potential severity -- any bit, even if it's made of braided silk, can hurt a horse's mouth with the wrong hands on the reins. A vaquero-style spade bit, while scary looking, can be a phenomenal and gentle communication aid with the right hands on the reins. Harsh bits don't ruin mouths, harsh hands do. 

*Shank vs. purchase ratio:* Long shanks with a short purchase (length of the upper part of the shank, between the mouthpiece and cheekpiece of the headstall) typically indicates a harsher bit. A more equal ratio indicates a milder bit. 

Curved or swept shanks are generally milder than straight, at least in that there's a slight "delay" in the activation of the leverage action that isn't there in a straight shank. Straight shank = quick response, but it's easy for bad hands to overdo it and intimidate/frustrate the horse. 

*Mouthpieces:* Thinner is generally harsher, but don't jump on the thickest one out there in the name of mildness. Consider your horse's mouth conformation -- if he's got a low palate or is otherwise lacking space in there, a thinner mouth will probably be more comfortable. 

Jointed mouthpieces tend to get confusing when mixed with leverage action -- I'd avoid a jointed mouth unless it's of the Billy Allen variety (a limited-range swivel joint -- almost no potential for pinching). 

Ridged or otherwise textured mouths are more severe than smooth. Twisted wires fall into this category. If you've done your homework and prep work properly, there's generally no need for these kind of mouths.

Higher, narrower ports are generally harsher than lower, wider ports. 


*American Tom Thumb vs. Argentine:* The main difference here is in construction and balance. Every TT I've ever laid hands on has been a poorly made, poorly balanced hunk of junk, and almost every rider I see with one is hauling on it two handed like it was a loose ring snaffle. Argentines, with the slight sweep in the shank, have a little delay to the action. A solid mouth with a low port eliminates the "noise" of the jointed mouth and the mixed-signals that leverage on a jointed bit can send by accident. 

Given these *very general* "rules," a good bit to look long and hard at to transition your gelding out of his snaffle (assuming that he is soft, supple, and neck-reining well in the snaffle) would be an Argentine with a low port, or perhaps a Billy Allen style joint. However, every horse is different, and your fella may make his preferences quite clear to you once you start experimenting. 

Incidentally, that's interesting how your 4H rules are shaking out on the subject... I was a member for years, both English and Western projects, and I've been a club leader for a few years now. In my state, Western horses don't have to make the switch to a shanked bit until their 5 year old year. Even then, I do believe that gaming horses (barrels, etc.) are still allowed to run in snaffles (although most are outfitted in comparatively harsh curb half-breed rigs...) 3 just seems awfully young... most horses in my area are barely started under saddle at that point, and would be nowhere near prepared to "graduate" from their snaffles. 

Anyway, hope that's helpful to you!


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

What? Not allowed to ride in snaffle? You HAVE to ride in a curb bit?! That is just bull. I would leave your 4h club and find somewhere where they don't require curb bits... Do the best for your horse. Also, a lot of horses are started at 3- or even older- so what about those horses? They have to be ridden in a curb? Sorry, makes no sense.


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## EthanQ (Sep 5, 2011)

Thankyou for the advice! And yes.,...I have always been taught to just ride the horse in what he'll work in...and this horse is perfect in a bosal/rope halter but 4H tries to be all professional like and follow the AQHA rules...but whatever I'm not too serious about the winning, just the experience and having fun with my horses. Thanks!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

caseymyhorserocks said:


> What? Not allowed to ride in snaffle? You HAVE to ride in a curb bit?! That is just bull. I would leave your 4h club and find somewhere where they don't require curb bits... Do the best for your horse. Also, a lot of horses are started at 3- or even older- so what about those horses? They have to be ridden in a curb? Sorry, makes no sense.


I doubt there is an association or club that allows a western horse over 5 years old not to be bridled. Bridled means a shanked bit with a chin strap and the horse has to neck rein.


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## EthanQ (Sep 5, 2011)

Weaver Sweet Iron Polished Medium Port Mouth Bit with Copper so would this be the kind of bit I need to be looking for? Short curved shanks, solid mouthpice and smaller port?


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

Thats a good horse person, horse over showing (or anything). After a little bit of online searching, all the sites I have found for 4h the rule is either 5 or 6 years they NEED a curb bit. Anyone know WHY this is? Is it a misconception that horses need bits with shanks to be controlled or what?


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

caseymyhorserocks said:


> What? Not allowed to ride in snaffle? You HAVE to ride in a curb bit?! That is just bull. I would leave your 4h club and find somewhere where they don't require curb bits... Do the best for your horse. Also, a lot of horses are started at 3- or even older- so what about those horses? They have to be ridden in a curb? Sorry, makes no sense.


It never made sense to me either, Casey... that requirement for western horses was a good part of the reason why I switched to English, where we're allowed snaffles regardless of age. When I was more into showing Western I'd ride in a snaffle until show day. Even besides the horse's being prepared for the move to a curb, there's tons of kids in the program who simply DO NOT have the hands to ride in a curb, and are forced to do so. Kids over 13 are required to W/T/C in shows as well, whether they have been riding for 10 years or 10 days. 

I wish that 4H would have a Green Horse/Green Rider division, let the horses and riders who are not ready for a curb or to canter to W/T or ride a snaffle until they are legitimately ready to move up, regardless of age, rather than hand down a requirement that forces horses and riders to be rushed rather than be properly "made." That's just my 2 cents on the subject, anyway. :lol: It's supposed to be about learning and growing as horsemen and leaders, not about getting that horse cantering in a curb as fast as possible. 

A lot of 4H's rules don't make a great deal of sense... in my state, the kids have to pick a saddle and stick with it all season -- they can't show their horse in both English and Western classes at a 4H show. Even more recently, gamers aren't allowed to compete in rail classes, or vice versa. JMHO, but, if you and your horse are versatile enough to try your hand at both disciplines, why not? What is the harm? The other leaders of my club and I have asked repeatedly what the rationale is for those particular rule changes, and never got a straight answer... it just got handed down as law from the Capital. 

Anyway, I'll stop hijacking the thread with my ranting now...


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

EthanQ said:


> Weaver Sweet Iron Polished Medium Port Mouth Bit with Copper so would this be the kind of bit I need to be looking for? Short curved shanks, solid mouthpice and smaller port?


 
Yeppers, something like that would definitely fit the bill as a starter curb, and is 4H legal.


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## EthanQ (Sep 5, 2011)

Yeah...here in Kansas we are allowed to show any discipline we want and whatever classes we like...Like last year my bridle broke and the judge let me run barrels in a halter...If they will let us run fullout in a barrel pattern with only a hackamore/halter, why not let us do a reining pattern with one?


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## EthanQ (Sep 5, 2011)

okay, well i do have a correctionial bit(my aunts horse came with it haha), short shanks, sorta large curve in the mouthpiece, I've always just stayed away from it since it has that big curve in the mouthpice, but would this work?


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

EthanQ said:


> Yeah...here in Kansas we are allowed to show any discipline we want and whatever classes we like...Like last year my bridle broke and the judge let me run barrels in a halter...If they will let us run fullout in a barrel pattern with only a hackamore/halter, why not let us do a reining pattern with one?


4H Reining is a beast of a class in our state... we don't have any reiners in our club right now, so I'm honestly not well up on the current situation, but last I heard, the state 4H rules were verbatim from NRHA. I talked to one girl who said one 4H reining class had half a dozen riders, and not one wasn't DQ'd for some esoteric tack rule (i.e., not a regulation reining saddle, official reining bit, etc.). I'll have to find out if we ever got our own rules for reining or not... (insert eye roll...)


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

A bridled horse is a "finished" horse. If done correctly (yes I have seen it done incorrectly and those people get the gate), there is less contact than a snaffle. I ride my horse in English & Western classes, I have way less contact in the curb, for a cue, it's a vibration on a moderately loose rein, for english, I pick up the snaffle in his mouth and let him go from there, usually opening my fingers & letting him go until I need a gait change or whatever. Cues in a western curb are extremely subtle, he feels the reins wiggle, he knows something is coming, either move up in the gait or down, he feels the reins on his neck, he moves away from them. No reins without leg or calf pressure and weight shift. When a horse is soft, you barely touch the reins, he knows what is coming when you use your other aids. A good rule of thumb, the more severe the bit, the less pressure you use. For a spade let's say, your reins could be attached with silk thread and technically you could still be able to cue your horse with it, that's how little pressure is used.


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## EthanQ (Sep 5, 2011)

Yeah...well here we mostly have a lot of middle class backayrd paint breeders(quite the ponies....not) who show up with their spoiled kids, throw on whatever saddle they seem to pickup that morning and go out and beath tyhe tar out of their horses. I've never been too serious about showing, but there are a couple in my club that kinda are. I just got tired of those pain in the butt kids placing higher than me just because I wasn't trying like I should....If that makes sense. haha


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

EthanQ said:


> okay, well i do have a correctionial bit(my aunts horse came with it haha), short shanks, sorta large curve in the mouthpiece, I've always just stayed away from it since it has that big curve in the mouthpice, but would this work?


Correctional bits can be tricky because of all the joints, and usually the port is pretty high for a horse just starting into the world of curb bits. They aren't really considered to be a mild bit, and in my understanding are generally used as a tune-up bit for horses that are getting dull to a regular curb. I personally have never ridden with one, so I really can't bring any personal experience on them. 

Could it work? Possibly. If it fits, pop it in, and try it out, and see what your horse tells you. Use common sense, though, and don't fight it out if he tells you that he is uncomfortable, intimidated, or confused by it.


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## EthanQ (Sep 5, 2011)

awesome...thank you so much for the advice!


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## EthanQ (Sep 5, 2011)

ok one more question...is a curved mouthpiece a little harsher than a straight mouthpiece like this? Google Image Result for http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/EquestrianCollections/PF00028R-a%3F%24oldimage%24


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

EthanQ said:


> Yeah...well here we mostly have a lot of middle class backayrd paint breeders(quite the ponies....not) who show up with their spoiled kids, throw on whatever saddle they seem to pickup that morning and go out and beath tyhe tar out of their horses. I've never been too serious about showing, but there are a couple in my club that kinda are. I just got tired of those pain in the butt kids placing higher than me just because I wasn't trying like I should....If that makes sense. haha


I hear ya, mate. The competition wore thin on me after a while... just lost interest in trying to hold my own against the real die hards. A $1.50 ribbon just isn't worth it to me, and I'm far more interested in the nitty gritty of what goes into the training of a good horse than busting butt on my own to try to beat someone who has a 6 figure horse and top-tier coaching from an AQHA champ trainer. Out here, you've either got the cash to buy what it takes (horse, tack, training, coaching) to jog out with a ribbon, or you're pretty clueless and it shows. Then there was me... the "lone nut" who has no money and drools over the minutia of biomechanics and the physics of bits... :lol:


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

EthanQ said:


> ok one more question...is a curved mouthpiece a little harsher than a straight mouthpiece like this? Google Image Result for http://s7d5.scene7.com/is/image/EquestrianCollections/PF00028R-a%3F%24oldimage%24


Yes, a curved mouthpiece is going to be harsher than a straight-bar mouth. With a ported bit, when you pull the reins, the port presses against the roof of the horse's mouth as the mouthpiece twists. A straight mouth takes that roof-pressure out of the equation. All pressure inside the mouth is going to go across the tongue as well as the bars, instead of the roof and the bars with the tongue getting relief. 

Again, it kind of depends on the horse. My sister's QH would HATE the straight-bar, even though it's theoretically a milder bit.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I feel I must speak to what I consider to be less than factual information about bits. Ported bits are not necessarily more severe than straight bar bits. Most straight bar bits put a lot of pressure on most horses' tongues. This makes them very uncomfortable if not downright severe. They cause most horses to open their mouths and many actually fight the bit.

Low to medium port bits never reach the roof of a horse's mouth. Only Very high ports like big spades, half-breeds and cathedral ports reach that high in a horse's mouth and they even don't if the purchase of the shank is long (distance from bit to top ring) and the curb strap is tight.

Snaffle bits are not less harsh than curb bits, especially if a curb bit is used correctly, but they allow a trainer to pull as hard as is necessary to get control. Snaffles should be used on green and unruly horses because a trainer can take more hold and 'muscle' a horse around if it is necessary. Spoiled horses come to mind first here. Any time I have gotten on a horse and it acted badly, the first thing I did was get a shank bit off of it and put a snaffle on it so I could do what was necessary to get control. You should never be in a position to have to pull hard on a curb bit. The horse is supposed to be trained well enough that he responds with a 'signal' of it rather than a pull. 

Curb bits give a horse a lot more 'pre-signal' than a snaffle. Any well trained horse should be listening for the pre-signal and not requiring a contact (or at most a very light contact.) Snaffles give very little pre-signal, so most good trainers put any horse the is being finished into some kind of a curb bit so that the horse can be asked for more with less contact.

Correction bits are not harsh. Most professional reining trainers go into one when they move on from a snaffle. Not all horses work well in them, but most do.

Billy Allen mouthpieces were a big improvement over the jointed mouth curbs that collapse on a horse's lower jaw. I do not know any good western trainers that still use them. They are pretty dated -- seen little use in the last 20 to 25 years. I cannot think of one reining trainer I know that even has one, now.

If you want to do any training and two handed riding in a curb bit, (which about everyone now does if they are not in the show-ring in front of a judge), you need to have a bit with completely loose shanks that swivel. This allows the rider to catch one corner of a horse's mouth, lets a rider 'lift' a shoulder, legs a rider develop as much 'bend' 'give' as they have the knowledge to teach. 

Most professional trainers do not use shank bits with a single jointed mouthpiece. Those with short shanks do not pinch the lower jaw as much as a longer shanked one does, but they are not nearly as useable as a three piece mouthpiece. These can be ported (like a correction but) or a dog-bone, but they are much more comfortable to a horse and do not encourage a horse to open his mouth. 

There is no such thing as an 'regulation reining saddle'. No such thing exists.

There is no such thing as an 'official reining bit'. There are only restrictions on shank length (8 inches) and diameter of mouthpiece and state that the mouthpiece must be smooth, not rough, sharp or wrapped with copper wire, etc. Curb straps and chains must be at least 1/2 inch wide and lay flat.

Horses can be shown in rigid curb bits, like a grazing bit and some of these now come 'spring loaded' with bushings in them that let one shank come back at a time when ridden two handed but the shanks do not swivel around like a true loose shanked bit. There is very little training that can be done in a completely rigid bit. 

In our own program, we go from a single or double jointed snaffle bit to a very short shanked 3 piece 'dog-bone' curb. We leave the curb chain very loose when we first switch them over and then gradually tighten it as the horse learns to 'give' to this bit and learns to flex and yield nicely vertically. 

When a horse is riding nicely in the little three piece and riding one handed, we either go to a longer shanked correction bit or a medium ported curb with loose shanks and expect the horse to ride on a much lighter contact. When I am riding a 'finished' or a very broke horse, I usually ride in a medium to high port 'Dutton' bit with 8 inch loose shanks. If a horse is going to be shown in 'reined cowhorse' competition, it must go into romal style weighted reins and cannot be shown with any fingers between the reins. Then you have a truly 'finished' horse.

Of all the trainers and programs that I greatly admire, Les Vogt is at the very top of my short-list. Right under him would be Bob Avila, Doug Williamson and Teddy Robinson.


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