# Done with Clinton Anderson



## waymire01

I've followed him on and off for many years. Attended his tour. Bought some products. Even was a No Worries Club member for a while. I will never watch or buy anything again.
Browsing through videos on YouTube and found this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZRLA7Ivh7Q&google_comment_id=z12jxdijzpmwjl5n1221htrx1nbkwdzmh

Yes, that is CA beating a horse mercilessly with a bull whip. Apparently he felt comfortable enough to televise it. If this is what he will show on television I don't even want to think about what happens when the cameras are off.

The horse had aggression issues, caused by the "trainer" ****ing herself every time he pinned his ears. Turned into a nasty game of chase. The horse never made an aggressive move while they were in his pen removing the hay ring, did not pin ears or threaten while standing directly next to the pen, did not make an aggressive move when CA entered the pen.. he didn't have a chance, CA just starts whipping straight off and continues to do so until his arm wears out. At about 12 minutes you can clearly see the huge welts across the horses hips and ribs.

I recently had a similar issue with a horse who was being dominant with her owner. I fixed the problem with a lead rope, an "in your face" attitude, and education in dominance for the rider since she was the one who caused the problem. Within two days she was an entirely different horse, and the owner had the confidence to be the alpha in the relationship. NOTHING justifies the beating (he never attempted to teach anything so yes, it was a beating) of a horse with a bull whip.


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## DressageHorse

I watched the video and didn't see anything I would consider beating...


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## 40232

^Agreed.

He addressed your opinion at 12:04, and I agree with him.


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## Foxhunter

Waymire, you have obviously never been in the same situation. 

CA asked the horse to move and when it didn't he immediately used the whip. He *had* to let the horse know he was not there to be laughed at, chaffed at or made a fool of - let alone be chased. 

The only times he used the whip on the horse was when it pinned its ears or on the one occasion turned it butt to him to turn. 

The horse learned fast that he wasn't going to be able to boss this mad man so did as he was asked the moment it was asked. When the pressure was let off the horse was not afraid, he was happy to stand and be rubbed.

The woman was not tough or demanding enough or picking up on the subtle threats the horse was showing her. Once she understood that then the horse offered no bad moments. 

The horse was not frightened as her rubbing the whip over him afterwards proved. 

Sometimes you have to be extra tough.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I didn't see a horse getting an undeserved beating, but I saw a disrespectful horse getting a well earned spanking. I'm going to wager that better than 90% of the time, the blows weren't landing, they were part of the noise and show and convincing the horse he was about to be eaten. He did land several blows, when the horse pinned his ears, turned his butt and gave him the horse version of the middle finger. 

The initial trainer created the monster by retreating when the horse made threats to her, to the point where the horse would have made good on the threats if she hadn't gotten clean out of the round pen. That made for a fairly urgent need for CA to give the horse an immediate and really strong CTJ. He administered the CTJ and the horse came up singing, "I Saw The Light" and he backed off, petted the horse and left him alone. 

I really liked CA's timing and quick way he showed the horse who was dominant, without anyone getting hurt. Butt stung yes, hurt no. Had the initial trainer been a little more dominant and established right from the beginning that SHE controlled that horse's feet, he wouldn't have gotten as obnoxious as he did. She failed the horse and she wouldn't get a 2nd one of mine to train.


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## jimmyp

I didn't see anything that would get me to riled, Id say that horse was a long time coming on getting an old fashioned *** whooping.

Jim


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## ducky123

I saw a great job of ca gaining control and teaching the owner how to get control. When the alternative is a trip to the glue factory.......


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## Mulefeather

Honestly when the horse is this aggressive towards people, and has already learned that being nasty gets him what he wants, he needs to learn quickly and as firmly as possible that this is NOT acceptable behavior and there ARE consequences to doing this behavior. The woman doing the training was not used to that caliber of horse, and since she looked older it could have been her own self-preservation instinct kicking in that made her quail- we’ve all got them, and they’re there for a reason. Most of us with a lick of sense would be hard-pressed to take on a horse that’s shown chasing someone experienced around the roundpen with teeth bared and ears pinned. The horse had learned he could bully people into submission. 

CA didn’t do any worse to this horse than the horse was already trying to do to the original trainer. As well, it’s to show the horse that “You can make this choice, but it’s not gonna be nice when you do. But when you make the choice to work with me, I’ll reward you.” Wrong thing hard, right thing easy – the base tenet of good horsemanship. 

He’s also not wailing on this horse mercilessly until an arbitrary moment – he’s looking for a specific response and when he gets it, he rewards the horse by removing all pressure. In true bully fashion, this is a horse that needed someone to come down on his crappy behavior and HARD. 

As Ducky said, when it’s a choice between a few spanks on the butt and being put down (or worse, hurting/killing a human), the spanks don’t seem like such a big deal if the message gets across. I would rather a horse learn a lesson about respecting humans immediately in a big, dramatic fashion where the lesson STICKS, rather than 10 sessions where the behavior is allowed to continue until the horse decides otherwise.


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## Joel Reiter

ducky123 said:


> When the alternative is a trip to the glue factory.......


Exactly! Which is worse, a horse getting chased around and stung a few times with a whip, or a lifetime of abuse and/or trip to the slaughter yard? Go to a horse rescue operation some day and ask yourself whether those poor animals would have preferred a painful 15 minute attitude adjustment session to a lifetime of misery.

Furthermore, at some point the safety of the trainer has to take priority over the comfort of the horse. Clinton Anderson has never been seriously injured working with or riding a horse. After you've trained several thousand of your own, will you be able to say the same thing?


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## Incitatus32

I didn't see him doing anything I wouldn't have done. He didn't beat the horse, he gave him a tap when he deserved it. Heck, I've left a few 'whip marks' or ruffled fur on a highly disrespectful horse before! And I like to think I'm fairly easy to please. 

If you notice he didn't hand the bull whip to the lady (who I presume is not experienced in using it), he taught her the cues, taught her to get big, but left the instrument that could do SERIOUS damage in the hands of the experienced user. 

Waymire I had a horse who was like the one in the video. Day two of working with him (the owner conveniently forgot to mention his behavior....) he got me cornered, and on the ground, and proceeded to try and kill me. It was not done in fear or with provocation, it was done with malice. I'm eternally grateful to my farrier who happened to be passing by as he managed to beat the horse off of me. I still don't know how I didn't get hurt or killed (I attribute this to quick action on my farriers part and my ability to go limp.) You can bet when he attempted to do that again the next day I went after him even worse than CA did on this horse. After all was said and done and our ruffled fur and skin was treated he never did it again, and he never was afraid of me or the whip. 

A dangerous horse is the worst thing, you can reason with fear, you can help stupidity and you can sway intelligence. One thing you can't do is be nice about mean.


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## BarrelracingArabian

I agree I saw a disresepectful/dangerous horse getting put back in his place effectively.


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## KRcowgirl

I agree with every comment above. 

Even a slightly aggressive horse is dangerous, because we forget that they _are_ ten times bigger than us, and that even what's a slight blow to them is fatal to us. 

I didn't see any welts, btw. That was just fluffy hair that had been ruffled by his spankings. (Well deserved, too!) To me, a welt is a huge, bruised, swollen, to the point of being bloody spot. That little smooshed fur was not a welt. 

Every one of my horses has gotten a spanking, be it with my hand, my stick-and-string, lead rope, or a shovel, because I _will not put up with any aggressive behavior_. (The shovel was for when I was mucking a stall, and my sister's QH charged me in the corner. I almost pooped myself.  

To me, if she would've reacted the way the rest of us did, with a "Oh no you didn't!" z-snap attitude and a spanking, that horse wouldn't have needed Clinton's hand. But she was a terrified trainer, and I would _*never*_ send any of my horses to her, based on her fear.


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## Mercy98

He was simply making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. The horse deserved the spanking and he was a completely different horse afterwards...he was respectful.


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## IndianaJones

I was all prepared to be upset at CA...but, alas....he did everything right. Watch the movie Buck if you want to see the flip side of that behavior...and how bad it can be. This video went really well


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## Reiningcatsanddogs

My reaction is not anger at Clinton Anderson, he was just doing what needed doing. 

I am more upset with the trainer and owner who allowed the horse to get to the point of being dangerous in the first place.


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## Eolith

I love how Clinton Anderson actually has a comment about the "tree huggers" who are going to watch what he did and flip out. ^_^ I agree with what others have said that the horse needed a good firm session.


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## kewpalace

I am not much of a Clinton fan and don't care for his methods much, but other people do get alot out of & have success with him/his methods, so more power to them. In this video I just see him applying his methods - maybe not what I would do, but they achieved their goal. 

I do not see any "beating" or "welts" in this video. I DO see dust marks on the horses' bum from the whip. That is the result of a dirty horse, not injuries from "welts" from the whip.

However, if the OP does not like what she sees, she is certainly free to express her opinion and move on to another trainer who is more in line with her philosophy.


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## kewpalace

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I am more upset with the trainer and owner who allowed the horse to get to the point of being dangerous in the first place.


I had to shake my head at the owner, too ... :shock:


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## Saddlebag

I had a horse come straight at me with intent. She felt the sting of the hardest slap I could deliver just behind her jaw with a stout rope. It turned her away. She tried a second time and got the same result. After that no more aggression.


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## ChitChatChet

The trainer/owner was a pansy, she never stood up to that horse... she allowed him to become dangerous.


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## 4horses

One of the barns I worked at had a stallion attack someone. The lady was talking on her cell phone while leading him to his pasture. The horse ripped her face apart so badly she needed cosmetic surgery and broke a few ribs.

I was very happy they sent him to the show trainer so I didn't have to work with him. If it had been my horse he would have been gelded!! But he did well in the show ring so his owners wanted him to stay a stallion. 

There are some horses that are nasty. It certainly makes you appreciate having a nice animal.


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## Smilie

Agree with what has been said.
Once a horse has become spoiled and and dangerous, through incorrect handling, then you have to do what it takes to make that horse respectful. 
Good NH training follows this rule as much as nay traditional training,but unfortunately, many NH followers have the idea that you just use gentle techniques at all times, never getting after a horse when needed.
They are completely buying into that "natural, or organic or what have you

One of the founders of NH (even though that term is not truly right, as NH principles, horse whispering, or whatever you wish to call it, have been used throughout the ages by good horsemen-just never labeled and sold as such), laid out the principle 'be as gentle with ahorse as possible, but also as frim as needed, to make that horse a good citizen'
It is so very unfortunate that so many NH followers completely buy into the first part, buy all the spin off gadgets, set up round pens, but totally miss the equally important concept of the last part of that statement!


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## jaydee

I'm not a huge CA fan - I did see that video on his TV series though
That horse should have had a darn good whack long before he got to the point where CA came on the scene.
He'd gone from dominant to dangerous 
I didn't see the horse being repeatedly whipped 
Some horses need to be put very firmly in their place - 
I'm sure most of us have seen how ineffective the flapping sack method was on a similar horse in the Buck film...............


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## Sharpie

I see some dust marks in his coat, but even if he did have welts, I still wouldn't see a problem. CA stopped when the horse did as asked, put pressure on when the horse told him to **** off. From the original trainer's video, no matter if the owner or the trainer helped create the behavior, this was a horse well on his way to hurting someone and would wind up dead soon after, so a welt is a small price to pay for his life. Hopefully they can keep up on it and he truly is 'reformed'.

I only hope I never have to deal with a horse like this. I'm as bold as I need to be and have easily handled a fair few horses that scare or intimidate their owners, but I've also never had one actually commit to trying to hurt me either. In all honesty, if I had a horse that did, I'd probably have him euthanized after I cleaned my shorts out. I know that's not something I have any desire to deal with.


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## feistymomma

I see absolutely nothing wrong with what he did. The biggest "head shake" moment I had was seeing the "trainer" running. I would have done the exact same thing. Horses need a leader. They are herd animals and they need a leader. By being the aggressive dominant one, you become the one they respect and listen to. A submissive horse is not going to show aggressiveness towards the dominant. You have to become the boss....if you run away, you give them the power. You gotta be firm...and even if there was a welt, a boo boo is not going to kill him.


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## mslady254

I have only been able to see about half of the video, but so far I don't see anything upsetting. I'm a Parelli student and lots of folks think Parelli Students tune in to the 'as soft as possible', and never get to 'as firm as necessary'...LOL...but I don't see CA beating this horse. I see him bringing his energy way up, being clear with cues, and demanding instant response. All completely appropriate, imho, esp. in light of the horse's behavior with the owner/trainer. C.A. already knew the horse's history, so didnt need to assess first or be 'as soft as possible', that ,imo had already been ruled out.
I see no whelps or cuts whatsoever. Most of the swings of the whip don't make contact, in fact. And the two 'marks' that I saw were from dust either on the horse or from the arena dust on the whip itself. That horse had the chance to be clear of the whip every time, but if he failed to move fast enough, he got tagged.

This was a safety issue, for the owner and any other people who handled the horse, and ultimately for the horse itself.

Fay


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## HombresArablegacy

Absolutely no abuse in that video. You've got an extremely aggressive horse with no manners, and the trainer scared out of her wits.

I would have smacked the gelding the first time he even hinted at pinning his ears, and as for striking and chasing her out of the pen....ummmm no.

Horse should have never been allowed to get to that level of disrespect, and CA handled it just as most of us would. And got results, fast. 

Like he told the trainer: If this horse stomped you and put you into the hospital, do you think he'd call and apologize or send flowers???

One tries to prevent such aggression by making it clear from day one that it is unacceptable. And if that means getting his butt spanked, you bet!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CowboyBob

I am at work and I don't have time to read all the other posts, I did see the video, and I have to say I thought he did a good job with this horse. As for him hitting the horse with a "bullwhip" would it have made a difference if it was a rope? I have seen welts left on horses before but I didn't see welts you could see where the hair was skuft. But I would have done something very much the same. 
You have to think about how would another horse have trained that horse?


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## jenkat86

IndianaJones said:


> I was all prepared to be upset at CA...but, alas....he did everything right. Watch the movie Buck if you want to see the flip side of that behavior...and how bad it can be. This video went really well


I'm not the biggest CA fan...but I'm agreeing with everyone else. 

Very good, informative video. I suggest watching the whole thing. 

Have you ever seen horses interact with each other in the heard? I am not a horse. None of my body parts can give the same type of effect as another horse can WITHOUT proper tools. And quite frankly...who would wan't to get that close to a dangerous horse? Anyone is foolish to think a horse like that can't and won't kill you. I second the suggestion about the documentary "Buck." Watch it.


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## BreezylBeezyl

Can I just say that one of my biggest pet peeves is people's skewed view on discipline?

It's not just with horses, it's with children as well. We now live in an age where discipline is often pegged as abuse. While I am not a parent, I get anxiety just thinking about strangers watching me discipline my misbehaving child - because you know there are people who will call child services on a parent giving their kid a good spanking in public (grocery stores anyone?) for being a little snot.

*Discipline is necessary, but abuse is not - that is the difference here.*

I watched the whole video and came to the conclusion that this was a good horse, with a nice work ethic and attitude, but had been allowed to develop a bad habit due to lack of discipline. He was behaving this way because he was allowed to, it had become dangerous, and someone had to step in have absolutely 0 tolerance for this type of behaviour so that the horse would have no inkling of returning to this. The more leniency you have, the less progress you will make *in a situation like this.*

The discipline CA introduced was necessary for the horse and trainer to go back to having a correct, fearless relationship.

Now I'm not a huge CA buff or anything, but I respect him and his methods.

EDIT: I just wanted to share that horses will tell you if you are being a bully (abuse) or being supportive (discipline) based on how they react. My mare understands when she is being corrected, and also understands when I am just being a bit of a control freak (and in fact, she corrects MY behaviour and tells ME to settle the heck down). Difference.


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## Saddlebag

Horse skin doesn't welt. What appeared as a welt was likely a clean spot from the dust being knocked out. When working with aggressive horses, there's a possibility one of us could die and it ain't going to be me. I'm not afraid and will do what it takes to move that animal away. A more dominant horse would kick the tar out of him or deliver nasty bites to drive the other away. We use what tools we have to do the same thing.


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## Remali

I totally agree with you waymire... I will never go see, or watch, Anderson again, ever. He is abusive and is no "trainer". He is, at best, just an entertainer, trying to make money thinking he knows how to train horses.


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## Remali

Saddlebag said:


> Horse skin doesn't welt. What appeared as a welt was likely a clean spot from the dust being knocked out. When working with aggressive horses, there's a possibility one of us could die and it ain't going to be me. I'm not afraid and will do what it takes to move that animal away. A more dominant horse would kick the tar out of him or deliver nasty bites to drive the other away. We use what tools we have to do the same thing.


Oh? Yes it does, indeed (sadly) welt. I saw enough of it at the Arabian shows (and one reason why I no longer attend those shows). In fact, they now dismiss any Arabians that do show any welts from their halter handlers in the show ring.


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## EncinitasM

I'm not going to comment on CA as a trainer. Far more experienced folks than I accept his methods and at this point that's enough for me.

However....

His video production technique sets him up to be Superman and that's just absurd. From what I can tell reading posts from experienced trainers here is that training a horse is slow, consistent... dull! work. It's not about being Superman. That and the "buy my latest dvd!!!" footage interspersed throughtout the video is fairly distracting and annoying.

Another thing is that they have made this woman out to be absurdly incapable. She has a horse that's above her ability. Ok. I imagine most of you have encountered that at some point in your careers/etc. They make this woman out to be a clown. Having the horse, who doesn't look all that aggressive in the shot, "chase" her around that bale feeder, it's clearly set up. There's no reason for it except to make CA look more of a Superman.

I don't have anything against the guys training methods, I have his foundation book, I use it, but come on, how about a little humility. Can you imagine Tom Dorrance or Ray Hunt putting out a video like this? Even his current day countryman Warwick Schiller manages to come off much more down to Earth.


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## karliejaye

Mark, you hit on exactly what my rub is with CA. I do believe he has a good "method" but I am so put off by his egotistical showboating that I could never stand him!
His production team could teach the soap opera writers a thing or two on making drama! Sheesh!


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## BreezylBeezyl

I do agree with everyone regarding his marketing schemes. But... I also understand that you know what, he runs a business. And so I also get he doesn't get to call all the shots, his marketing team does. He is probably pushed a lot to market as well.

I am happy for CA. A lot of trainers never get to "superstar" status. He makes a living doing what he does and honestly, he's a decently respectable trainer as well. His methods makes sense and they work. He's a smart guy who knows horses well. There is a reason he is where he is today.

Now I'm not making excuses for him. He does advertise a lot, and that bugs me too. I wish they would tone it down, but I also don't think he's necessarily showboating either. I just have a different perspective I guess.

I just ignore the advertising and pick out the horsemanship and try not to be bugged by it too much. I like his methods, but won't buy his gimmicky equipment. Maybe DVDs and books, but that's because I actually do learn a lot from these no matter which trainer they are from!

I think his TV series is turning out to be a lot like The Dog Whisperer :lol: Which is fine, I always learned things from that show.


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## Remali

I think many of these "trainers" try to show themselves in a good light, sadly I've seen too many abuses by many of them though. Same with the "Dog Whisperer", some of the abusive things he has done are horrifying. But they, of course, do not want people to see "that", so not much of it gets out there. Better to pick and choose the positive things that you do like, I agree with that.


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## Hang on Fi

The video had a poor marketing taste to it, the music choice, and his language was very "macho" oriented, which I did not like personally. It gave the feeling of "I'm man, hear me roar." 

No horse trains the same. What works for some, won't work for others. The horse was unfortunately allowed to learn these habits, but CA method ultimately worked for the horse. 

In respects to opinions of trainers. Take what you want(and like) from each one and leave the rest.


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## taichihorse

There is a better way to train horses than being cruel and bullying them. I have worked with lots of horses that have been ruined by their owners and so called 'trainers'. 
Anyone can 'train' a horse by submission and domination, but few can train by understanding and empathy.
If you can get a horse to work with you as a partner and not a slave, you and your horse will reap great rewards. The horse will work better for you because you have earned their respect. Respect does not come from bullying or being cruel, but by understanding and empathy. 
I am not a tree hugger, but have trained horses up to advanced levels and riders up to be qualified instructors.
Always remember in training horses, that if it is not beautiful it cannot be correct.


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## Sugar

So... I'm in the middle of watching this. I have no idea who this is, I see his name all the time, but I don't read, watch, buy, his stuff, etc. So this is completely new to me, but I had to just stop it at 5:55, to say...

*Did I just see the aggressive Jack, ground tie like an angel while they removed the feeder from the pen?!* Seems ironic and funny...


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## Roman

Remali said:


> I totally agree with you waymire... I will never go see, or watch, Anderson again, ever. He is abusive and is no "trainer". He is, at best, just an entertainer, trying to make money thinking he knows how to train horses.


I would rather spank my horse a few times than see it go off to the glue factory or slaughterhouse. 



taichihorse said:


> There is a better way to train horses than being cruel and bullying them. I have worked with lots of horses that have been ruined by their owners and so called 'trainers'.
> Anyone can 'train' a horse by submission and domination, but few can train by understanding and empathy.
> If you can get a horse to work with you as a partner and not a slave, you and your horse will reap great rewards. The horse will work better for you because you have earned their respect. Respect does not come from bullying or being cruel, but by understanding and empathy.
> I am not a tree hugger, but have trained horses up to advanced levels and riders up to be qualified instructors.
> Always remember in training horses, that if it is not beautiful it cannot be correct.


He was not being cruel. He was establishing that *HE *is the leader, and not the horse. Because obviously when the horse thought he was leader, he was about to kill the woman. When we have horses and work with them, they need to know that_* I AM LEADER. I AM BOSS. *_"You do not push me around." I want them to respect ME and I in turn respect them. When you establish that you are LEADER and BOSS, then you can have your partnership. If you do not establish that you are the leader, the horse will have no respect for you and will run you over. In a herd, the horses will fight to establish who's going to be top horse. Even if they leave marks, they fight who is boss. 



Sugar said:


> So... I'm in the middle of watching this. I have no idea who this is, I see his name all the time, but I don't read, watch, buy, his stuff, etc. So this is completely new to me, but I had to just stop it at 5:55, to say...
> 
> *Did I just see the aggressive Jack, ground tie like an angel while they removed the feeder from the pen?!* Seems ironic and funny...


Uh, you can clearly see the person standing there holding the lead. >.>


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## churumbeque

DressageHorse said:


> I watched the video and didn't see anything I would consider beating...


 I don't like CA for many reasons but I didn't see him beat the horse and I would never hit a horse but i think he was appropriate with this horse. Not to say he rougher when the cameras weren't rolling ot that wasn't edited out.


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## Sugar

Meh. I dunno.

I would NEVER whip my mare. However, has she ever tried to chase me down like that? Hell no. Might I whip a horse that tried to trample me? Maybe! I hope I never have to find out.

BTW, when did horse trainers become rock stars?!


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## Sugar

Roman said:


> Uh, you can clearly see the person standing there holding the lead. >.>


Really? I even backed it up a couple of times. I must be having one of those days!  Can I blame it on all the fancy cut shot editing? :lol:


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## taichihorse

Roman said:


> If you do not establish that you are the leader, the horse will have no respect for you and will run you over. >.>


That is really strange, I have trained hundreds of horses and riders and have never been run over. I must just be lucky then


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## Sugar

So... I have a gripe. It queued up "a second chance for sailor" next, and I watched it. Touch in go, because I have four kids at home. I pause more than I watch. :lol: But we got there in the end. Now... where the heck is the entire middle of the show?! We go from him handling Sailor for the first time, to a day when he's obviously so comfortable with the progress, that he puts the caretaker of sailor on his back. Works him a bit, with her on his back, and then the show ends. So... seriously? Where is the middle??? But then I suppose I should pay the 950.00(worth 2,000.00! :-|) for his full teaching set, to learn the middle part. 

I would like to have seen the footage of Clinton riding Sailor for the first time... 

Maybe I'm just moody today.


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## Saddlebag

When a person signs to accept sponsorship, sure there are benefits but one also loses control. The sponsors are in it to make money and run the show in a way that they think will make a good return on their investment.


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## Cindyg

I am only surprised that someone who has followed and studied CA would be surprised by this technique. I mean, it's not MY cup of tea; but it is HIS. You've never seen him be rough with a horse before?

Everyone has his own comfort level with force. Mine is far, far, far less than CA's. Apparently this crossed some line with the original poster. 

And, btw, I used to learn from Parelli. He crossed my line years ago, and I had to throw in my towel on him.   So I understand.


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## COWCHICK77

I will start out by saying that I am not a Clinton fan, he is a wanna be reining horse trainer that flunked out, found a different training niche and a really good promoter/marketer. I will also state that I have a hard time watching the video due to my **** poor internet but I remember seeing the episode when it aired on RFDTV quite some time ago, this is not a new release.

So with that said, to those that have claimed they have trained horses and never had this problem but thought the method Clinton Anderson used was over the top; have you dealt with a truly aggressive horse that had been spoiled by previous handling? Just curious how you would handle a tough horse not one that was just bluffing like the one shown. At what point do you feel it necessary to stripe ones as$?


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## waymire01

Sugar said:


> *Did I just see the aggressive Jack, ground tie like an angel while they removed the feeder from the pen?!* Seems ironic and funny...


Yep, just standing there quietly while they came in and took out the feeder. I do believe someone had a lead on him, but they were standing a few feet away. So this "severely aggressive" animal had someone walk in, put a halter and lead on him, and feel comfortable enough to give him four feet of loose lead. I have seen some really dangerous bad apples.. this was not one of them.

The worst part is that this horse has no idea what brought on this whipping. He did not act aggressively before the whipping started. Horses do not understand retribution or revenge. Even if you feel beating them is acceptable you can't beat them today for something they did yesterday. They understand cause and effect. He was given no opportunity to comply. He was not allowed to make the mistake he was punished for. From his perspective some stranger walked into his pen and beat the crap out of him. CA stated that he didn't canter when he pointed.. at what point was he taught what that cue means? He also stated that he turned his butt towards him.. when was he taught an inside turn? The only way he would have turned in at that speed and with that much fear the very first time would have been by sheer luck. 

Horse skin most certainly does welt. It also cuts and bruises. Often you can't see the cuts through the hair but you most certainly can see the welts. 

The stock whip was never intended to be used on an animal, it is used to produce the sound which drives/directs them.


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## waymire01

COWCHICK77 said:


> So with that said, to those that have claimed they have trained horses and never had this problem but thought the method Clinton Anderson used was over the top; have you dealt with a truly aggressive horse that had been spoiled by previous handling? Just curious how you would handle a tough horse not one that was just bluffing like the one shown. At what point do you feel it necessary to stripe ones as$?


I've put over a hundred rescues through my barn over the last ten years. I only had one horse that was so persistently aggressive I couldn't break through to her. I worked her for thirty days before she was euthanized as I deemed her too dangerous to pass on and refused to send her to slaughter.
I will not endanger my life, if a horse is truly life threatening it will be put down.

Usually a change of handler with a no nonsense attitude is enough, no more harsh treatment than any other horse. Lead rope, lunge whip, or stick and string depending on how much distance I need and what we are doing. the worst I have done is a very good crack across the nose with the stick, and that was a horse that charged me. Well fitting thin, firm rope halter when we get to that point. Treat them the same as any other, with the exception that I need to be extra observant and this horse will have to be kept to a high standard of obedience. Most of it is solved in the round pen, and most of the changes happen very quickly.. you just have to prove to them that you are more dominant and a good leader which means firm and fair. Ask, insist, immediately release pressure when the horse complies even if it's only for a second before you have to put pressure back on again. Often times aggression is not even the issue, it is protective behavior brought on by fear, once you get rid of the fear the aggression is no longer present. If that is the case the harder you are the worse it gets, that is where the release is so important. Each event is dealt with and then the slate wiped clean. Make sure every step is 100% and don't cut corners. Once you get there it's a matter of watching for any sign of disrespect and dealing with it immediately. Don't let the molehills become mountains.

The last one had learned to bully her 10 yr old rider. Nasty glares, biting, kicking, using the body as a weapon, and charging. I never even got the stick out, a training lead was enough.
Honestly I'd rather deal with one that was outright aggressive than the sneaky kind that act sweet then lash out with little to no warning. At least with the ****y ones you know what you are dealing with.


A better question would be how far as a trainer are you willing to go? If a bullwhip is acceptable what is next? Withholding water? Chain? Cattle prod? Ruining a horse's wind? Wire instead of a bit? Soreing legs?


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## waymire01

Cindyg said:


> I am only surprised that someone who has followed and studied CA would be surprised by this technique. I mean, it's not MY cup of tea; but it is HIS. You've never seen him be rough with a horse before?
> 
> Everyone has his own comfort level with force. Mine is far, far, far less than CA's. Apparently this crossed some line with the original poster.
> 
> And, btw, I used to learn from Parelli. He crossed my line years ago, and I had to throw in my towel on him.   So I understand.


I haven't followed his every move for a while which I guess is why I missed this particular video when it was shown on TV, I found the YT channel and was just watching in no particular order.. no, I had never seen him take a bullwhip to a horse before. In fact the only thing I've ever heard, even after extensive online searching now, is that he only uses the bullwhip for desensitization. 
I've never been a Parelli fan, but have seen him do horrible things as well... and early on he was all about non violence to the extreme. I think they get in over their heads and just refuse to admit they can't deal with it, and go over the line or lose control of their emotions rather than "fail". Not an excuse for abuse though.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I had to watch the video with no sound, as my work computer doesn't have speakers hooked up to it. 

However, I have "welted" my gelding similarly with a lunge whip in an effort to get through to him. He acted dangerously (reared and bolted as I was trying to mount and my old BO reached for the reins to hold him still for me) and so the "punishment" fit the "crime." They weren't actual welts. They were dust stripes. Which is exactly what those marks on the horse that CA was working with look like. 

What I saw in that video was CA "striking" first. He didn't give the horse a chance to assess him and say "I'm going to try to intimidate this human, too." He didn't let the horse think. He immediately made himself bigger and badder than the horse. I can guarantee you that he watched exactly how the horse acted with the "trainer" and knew exactly how far he needed to go to get his point across to that horse. The look on the horse's face is "Holy crap! This guy is tougher than me!" not "I'M GONNA DIE! I'M GONNA DIE! I'M GONNA DIIIIEEEEE!!!"


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## 4horses

The difference between your rescue and him being a professional trainer is that he gets the worst of the worst cases. The one out of ten thousand, the horse no one could train, who's owners are willing to pay extra.

Every one is critical of professional trainers. I've heard bad things about the dog whisperer, but he takes on cases that would be put down otherwise. I remember seeing one dog who was so aggressive it attacked him. I thought if that was my dog he would be euthanized. I would not want to keep an animal that aggressive. 

My dog is a resource guarder and will get between the horses and their feed buckets and snarl and attempt to attack. If he acted that way towards people.... it would be a different story. He is never trusted with food, and we are addressing his issues, but if he acted that way towards kids.... I would have him put down.

Obviously he is no longer allowed near the horses or the feed room.

Did Clinton make contact with that horse? Absolutely. But could that horse have moved his feet faster? Absolutely. My horses can move much faster than that if 
scared. I suspect getting kicked by another horse would hurt much worse!

As for the horse being held with a halter, it is possible he is only aggressive when you try lunging him or doing something he disagrees with. I had a horse who charged when lunged, a big percheron. He was fine until asked to do something he didn't agree with. He actually turned into a wonderful riding horse. Just very dominant out in the pasture towards other horses.

He did have a mean streak though. My friend had gotten in a few yearlings and he wanted to kill them. The youngest was lead mare material, and ended up as lead mare over the adults once he sold. But he took one look and hated her. He was capable of being a bully towards other horses, even the older ones. Very dominant and stallion like. I suspect he was gelded late.

He tried to go after those yearlings, which is why he ended up with me.

I thank every day I have not met a deliberately vicious horse. It only takes one accident to keep you from being able to walk. Most of us are lucky that we haven't met a really nasty animal. It doesn't mean they aren't out there.

How would you handle training a horse like that? 

I don't like people who beat their horses, but one strike with the whip on a dominant horse does not seem like abuse. I think the majority of his strikes hit the ground.


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## EncinitasM

WillowNightwind said:


> I do agree with everyone regarding his marketing schemes. But... I also understand that you know what, he runs a business. And so I also get he doesn't get to call all the shots, his marketing team does. He is probably pushed a lot to market as well.


I think it might run a bit deeper than this as well. Slow, methodical, repetitious training would make for terrible TV. So they are left with two choices. Either spice up the cases they get, or just choose to show only the very exciting cases. I think they do a mix of both.


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## Foxhunter

I don't think that this horse was particularly nasty, he couldn't see the point in moving when asked and objected to the fact. He had learned that by 'attacking' the human moved away so it was a violent sort of game to him. 
Continuing to get away with it he could well have turned very mean.

4horses is correct in saying that trainers like this get the worse cases and Mark is also correct in saying it makes for good TV. 

the positive and negative training is all very well if you have the time to clicker train or whatever you use. Personally I use my voice, I'd never find the clicker in my pocket amongst all the things I tend to accumulate there! 

I would rather have one tough training session as was done with this horse, than to spend days to reach the same point with a clicker. People want to see results and you could see the change of attitude in that horse at the end of the session.

Many horses are easy going until you want them to go something they don't usually do and then they will resist and resist hard.

I correct as necessary, I do not ignore bad behaviour. I do not beat horses up, just use what correction is necessary.

In all my years working with horses professionally very very few have been truly nasty. All bar one came around to be very good horses after one good sort out. The one that didn't, I truthfully believe had a brain disorder. He was fine to handle, led well, lunged but the moment you put anything on his back he turned and turned really nasty. 
I did get a roller on him and he wrecked the stable, he then got himself cast and tore muscles in his hind quarters so was turned out for them to heal. The race trainer brought him back to her place prior to him coming back to me. She told one of the lads to put a blanket on him. The blanket was on without objection but when he went to do the straps up the horse attacked. The lad went out over the door and the horse busted the door open chased the lad who hid in a garage which was filled with new stable doors stacked in two lines. He squeezed between the lines and the horse was rearing up pulling the doors flat totally oblivious to the fact he was smashing his head through the roof every time he reared. 

As fast as he attacked so he stopped, was caught and put back in a stable amd was euthanised the next day. He had damaged one eye, nearly tearing it out, with going through the roof and had severe lacerations to his head and neck.

I had spent several weeks with this horse taking him for walks throwing a surcingle over his back and then just holding it so there was light pressure on him but he never accepted it. 

Odd horse.


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## natisha

This was filmed for TV. Much we didn't see nor would we want to, too boring. I'll bet it took more than a 1/2 hour to do the training session, especially as he had to instruct the woman too.
As for the adds, they are commercials, which CA had to pay for.

I've had horses in for retraining that were so bad I needed 2 whips or they would try to get you on the backswing.
I've never had a bad one from the beginning of it's training life. It's always the "my horse won't do this or that" or "my horse does this & that" horses who are the problems. No, they aren't the problems, they are made problems by some owners.
The hardest thing about training most nasty horses is getting the owners to change their nagging ways. I always wanted to owners to watch, learn & do it themselves. Some would rather pet the dog or they think their horse is like a car & once it's fixed it's good to go.
I no longer do retraining because I got tired of hearing how I train horses so they only listen to me or I get the phone call 3 months later that "he's doing it again."

Most spoiled ones only need a firm fair hand, a growly "quit" or a few halter jerks to come around. But every so often one shows up that clearly needs more.


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## CheyRider

Okay, I expected extensive cruelty here, but... 

I see the same stuff as can be seen watching any other join up, very forceful body language, I doubt he actually hit the horse most of the time he swung the whip, the horse is not panicky.
Still don't like the whole show, for many reasons, the rock star image, the speedy, aggressive music.... but mainly because I bet there are plenty of people that don't understand what he is doing and only get the message "if the horse misbehaves in any way (or acts in a way that I interpret as misbehavior), it needs a good whacking and the problem will be fixed". Oh, and I also tend to believe the horse was not THAT aggressive to begin with, I think they exaggerated it a lot for the sake of the show, the way they showed the horse's head repeatedly from an angle that made him look wild and mean... not saying he was not aggressive at all, it's pretty clear he had realized he could chase a person around and get away with it. 

I watched another CA clip though that I liked a lot less: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdI_ILs0Pn4
Gosh, so many young horses with their noses on their chest, now that looks ugly to me! But then I neither believe in training 2-year-olds, or in high levels of competition. He's definitely very good with horses though, and I wished I could ride like that (minus all the low heads and overflexed necks). Just not my kind of horsemanship, I guess. But nothing particularly cruel OR magical.


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## Allison Finch

Way, I couldn't disagree with you more.

I haven't been up on CA much, in the past, but I LIKED what I saw, sorry. This horse was headed to slaughter soon, with that attitude. I did not see any unnecessary "beating" at all. Most of the time he snapped his whip without hitting the horse at all. When he did hit him, it was for a dang good reason, IMO.

He didn't raise welts. He made a make in the dirt.

This photo of me on a vaulting horse makes it look like the horse has lunge whip welts. However, the lunge whip made such soft contact it was barely touching the horse. However, there was dust on the lash from dragging in the sand. THIS is the mark you see.



Those were the same kinds of marks on that horse, mud marks, NOT welts.

Every time he was actually hit, it was the absolutely correct reaction, IMO. If you have ever had a horse try this with you, YOU would understand. I retrain soured horses, and they try this once and get an IMMEDIATE and similar reaction from me. It's a rare thing for them to try it again.

The only thing I really dislike about CA and his videos is the constant commercializing. However, I guess he does have to make a living....


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## Allison Finch

Saddlebag said:


> Horse skin doesn't welt.


 
Yes, it does. I watched a European dressage trainer get off of a horse (because it had bucked) and lay into it with his dressage whip. That horse not only had welts, it still had welts hours later.

The owner asked if I would take the horse, a huge Hanoverian mare. on. I said yes. After two sessions of her doing that and my riding it through and putting her instantly back to work, she stopped. She only wanted to stop doing the lateral work and she was allowed to every time the trainer got off her to beat her.

She was doing excellent unresisting lateral work within the week.

But, a horse's skin WILL definitely welt up.


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## Allison Finch

You know, I am glad to see the ones here who say....EWWW I would NEVER do that!!! You know why? You folks are bread and butter to me. I make good money ironing the wrinkles out of the horses produced by people who refuse to discipline, like the original trainer.

I use positive reinforcement in my training. I never punish a horse that does the wrong thing if it is based in fear or ignorance. But, if a behavior is willful and dangerous, as this horse's is, then I will definitely act. 

The stallion I often use as my avatar, was 7 years old and so rank that he was ONLY used for breeding, due to his excellent breeding but HORRIBLE behavior. He had to be led by two handlers with him between them. He would strike, kick and bite. I was asked if I could work with him and put him under saddle. I said YES!!

I love the rank horses. I often find them to be the most intelligent and their willfulness, when directed, usually turns into an excellent work ethic.

This stallion got tough but incredibly fair treatment. One bad act from him, one bad correction from me, then lots of praise when he stopped. Within two weeks he was a totally different stallion and was under saddle. 

He became, in all honesty, one of the best friends and partners I have ever had. We absolutely loved each other, but more importantly, we respected each other.

RIP Lil Ab


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## Saddlebag

I watched the "whipping" part and by watching Clinton's arm movement, I came to the conclusion that most of the crack sounds were added in. A whip cracks when the tip is flicked with vigorous arm or hand movement. I wasn't seeing that.


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## Sharpie

So, I've been watching more clips, and while the commercials irritate me, I skip forward through most of them, and I think I'm actually more of a fan of his stuff than I knew. Not that I've ever bought any of his stuff, but I've been doing a fair bit of his groundwork. Just always called it groundwork though.


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## waymire01

4horses said:


> The difference between your rescue and him being a professional trainer is that he gets the worst of the worst cases. The one out of ten thousand, the horse no one could train, who's owners are willing to pay extra.


Trainers get horses that people care about enough to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for training. We get the ones that are so "bad" everyone gave up on them completely and either turned them into a pasture and pretended they didn't exist anymore.. or sold them to slaughter. Every once in a blue moon we wind up with a perfectly nice horse that just wound up in a bad situation.. owner died, kids outgrew it and lost interest.. but 90% of the time there is something very wrong either physically or behaviorally to the point that it became worthless and was literally thrown away. The horse no one can trim or load, the one that hurt someone or their kid, the baby someone thought they could raise and break themselves but turned into a monster or broke mentally. Often times we get horses that have serious behavior problems but are either too weak, too injured, or their feet are in such terrible condition they cannot be retrained by the usual techniques because they simply cannot physically handle the strain. Another common situation is the "boomerang" horse.. quiet and docile because they are starved or injured, only to show the real reason they were neglected to begin with once they are back in shape. We try to pick and choose a bit, since the end goal is to put the horse into a long term home.. so you learn to spot the truly life threatening "crazy", and the crippled beyond repair... but we have also had enough "miraculous" turn arounds that we will gamble a bit. No one pays us, in fact we often pay for the horse. We financially support the horse the entire time it is here.. vet bills, farrier work (until I learned to do it myself), feed, medication. We are willing to invest months into a horse with no idea if it will work out in the end... and we seldom ever make a dime on the finished product, most are "sold" for a dollar. The most I have ever sold a rescue for is $500, and that was more of a donation.. the new owner insisted. So it is a completely different situation, we have an entirely different set of criteria for choose our "clients" and a completely different outlook for "success".. but the horses we get are not "powder puffs" or they would never have wound up in that situation in the first place.


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## Sugar

I watched a couple more. I'm trying to get a handle on what defines "natural horsemanship". And what is the opposite of natural horsemanship?? I don't really understand the genres very well. And all of this talk about Pat Parelli, has me wondering what that is about. 

With Clinton I see a trainer, retraining confused horses. I don't really perceive this line that makes it natural? Unnatural??

I would not whip my mare with anything. I own no crop. I do own a lunge whip that we used as a visual aid. I've never even untied it from the day I purchased it in the store. But I can say that I don't need to whip my mare, because I never allowed any negative behavior to begin with. She would never charge me, because that road was never taken. She doesn't bite or kick, because that door was never opened to begin with.

I honestly have no idea what lengths I would go to, if I was handed a ruined horse, instead of a raw horse. I would LIKE to think I could bond with any animal, instead of resorting to whipping. 

Of course he had no time or investment to bond with this horse. He had to be quick and dirty. I'm more inclined to care neither way about the technique he used, than I am to forgive the original trainer. She let it get bad, in my opinion. That footage of her standing in the feeder, and whipping out at Jack... she was striking wildly out of fear, and Jack was responding nastily out of an equine sense of self-defense. I really don't understand how it all escalated to this point. She was talking to a friend one day she said, had her attention turned away, and Jack charged her, chasing her out. Now young high strung horses will do that if you ignore them. Just like human children. They want and need your focus, and a good trainer would not be standing in the round pen with a young new horse, and NOT giving their full focus to the animal. How did it get from that day of misstep, to standing in the feeder and having a fearful ****ing match? I don't get it. :?


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## DraftyAiresMum

I think I had an advantage watching the video with no sound. Turn off the sound and just watch. Rarely does the whip make contact with the horse. And for the amount of whipping CA is doing, there should be more marks on the horse. Ergo, he's not actually whipping the horse, but the ground. I know we've all done that. Smacked the ground to get our horse moving out when they're being stubborn or lazy (or our body language isn't where it should be, but we don't realize it). Sometimes, when the horse doesn't move fast enough, contact is made. It's hardly "beating" the horse. 

That's what I saw in that video. CA aggressively making the horse move his feet and when the horse didn't move fast enough, contact was made. This horse needed to know that he was NOT in charge. That someone else had the reins, so to speak.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EncinitasM

Sugar said:


> That footage of her standing in the feeder, and whipping out at Jack... she was striking wildly out of fear, and Jack was responding nastily out of an equine sense of self-defense. I really don't understand how it all escalated to this point.


TV footage doesn't just happen. This shot had to be set up. It didn't "escalate" to this point. Maybe the director based this shot on an anecdote the owner related but you can be assured that the whole incident was .... "edited"... to reinforce the overall message of the video which is CA is Superman and therefore you must buy all of his DVDs and training accessories otherwise you'll end up like this poor woman whipping out at your horse in fear from the confines of a bale feeder.

Please.


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## Sugar

MarkInEncinitas said:


> TV footage doesn't just happen. This shot had to be set up. It didn't "escalate" to this point. Maybe the director based this shot on an anecdote the owner related but you can be assured that the whole incident was .... "edited"... to reinforce the overall message of the video which is CA is Superman and therefore you must buy all of his DVDs and training accessories otherwise you'll end up like this poor woman whipping out at your horse in fear from the confines of a bale feeder.
> 
> Please.


I was laughing with my boys about the "original" price of the disc set ($2,000), saying that if I had $2,000 dollars lying about, I would be heading straight to the saddle shop. I mean, seriously! Discs or nice saddle? Discs, or nice saddle?? Hmmmm....:lol: 

And if I told my girl how much cookie money was tied up in every single shiny disc, I'm pretty sure she would never look at me again. :wink:


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## natisha

Sugar said:


> I watched a couple more. I'm trying to get a handle on what defines "natural horsemanship". And what is the opposite of natural horsemanship?? I don't really understand the genres very well. And all of this talk about Pat Parelli, has me wondering what that is about.
> 
> With Clinton I see a trainer, retraining confused horses. I don't really perceive this line that makes it natural? Unnatural??
> 
> I would not whip my mare with anything. I own no crop. I do own a lunge whip that we used as a visual aid. I've never even untied it from the day I purchased it in the store. But I can say that I don't need to whip my mare, because I never allowed any negative behavior to begin with. She would never charge me, because that road was never taken. She doesn't bite or kick, because that door was never opened to begin with.
> 
> I honestly have no idea what lengths I would go to, if I was handed a ruined horse, instead of a raw horse. I would LIKE to think I could bond with any animal, instead of resorting to whipping.
> 
> Of course he had no time or investment to bond with this horse. He had to be quick and dirty. I'm more inclined to care neither way about the technique he used, than I am to forgive the original trainer. She let it get bad, in my opinion. That footage of her standing in the feeder, and whipping out at Jack... she was striking wildly out of fear, and Jack was responding nastily out of an equine sense of self-defense. I really don't understand how it all escalated to this point. She was talking to a friend one day she said, had her attention turned away, and Jack charged her, chasing her out. Now young high strung horses will do that if you ignore them. Just like human children. They want and need your focus, and a good trainer would not be standing in the round pen with a young new horse, and NOT giving their full focus to the animal. How did it get from that day of misstep, to standing in the feeder and having a fearful ****ing match? I don't get it. :?


I believe this horse came to the trainer like that. She wasn't the owner or the original trainer, we don't know who that was. This trainer, the woman, had never dealt with a horse like that so she tried & using the feeder probably kept her safe.
I hope the owner also was instructed on how to deal with that horse or with her he would go right back to the bad behavior.


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## Saddlebag

At one time I was dead accurate with a lunge whip and could pick the petals off a daisy. I used this to my advantage and if a horse refuse to step along when on the lunge I'd flick the whip into it's tail, just below the dock. It seemed to grab a few hairs which always got the horse's attention. Frequent cracking of a whip around a horse soon turns it off. Another think I'd do for the unresponsive was to aim high and let it is go as tho I was tossing a rope. The lash lands on the horse's rump and again, gets it's attention.


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## dlady

IMO, the trainer didn't let the horse get to this point, the owner did. The so called trainer just didn't know what to do with this horse. Sure she could have helped make him worse in the 2 weeks that she had him by always running away from him instead of taking leadership by making him move his feet.

Yes he used the whip, but most of the time the whip made contact with the ground behind the horse to keep him moving. He did what needed to be done. That video don't show everything. He was there for 2 days and we wall know that you can't fit an entire 2 days in a less than 30 minute video. PLEASE!

I have been to different clinics and they always have some of their clinicians with them to work with the horses while they're out of the arena and off camera. Never think that they get results from what little time you see in a video.

You don't need to spend 2000.00 to do what he did in the video. That's all part of the fundamental kit, which I own. It's also in his book "Gaining respect and control on the ground" which can be purchased on amazon. Would I pay that much for his kits. NO, not when I know there is a much cheaper route to get them if I wanted them. I have several of his dvds and is proud to own them. He is a great people trainer. He makes things black and white. I understand what he's saying. 

No matter which trainer I watch, I not only watch what they do, I also watch how they do things. Some people send their horse to a trainer for a refresher every year instead of taking the time to learn to do things themselves. It's up to us to learn how to handle our horses. If you can't do that, then yes you need help. 

Not only does the dvds cost money. But so does the trainers that many have to hire when they can't do it them self. Sometimes people get their horses back worse than they was before it went to the trainer.

I have a trainer/riding instructor who's not fond of CA, she's a Dennis Reis person, but she's good at what she does.

If you want something bad enough, you'll find a way. Whether it's learning to do it yourself or hiring someone else.


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## COWCHICK77

waymire01 said:


> I've put over a hundred rescues through my barn over the last ten years. I only had one horse that was so persistently aggressive I couldn't break through to her. I worked her for thirty days before she was euthanized as I deemed her too dangerous to pass on and refused to send her to slaughter.
> I will not endanger my life, if a horse is truly life threatening it will be put down.


Just curious, what did you try? did you ever give her a good smack?



> Usually a change of handler with a no nonsense attitude is enough, no more harsh treatment than any other horse. Lead rope, lunge whip, or stick and string depending on how much distance I need and what we are doing. the worst I have done is a very good crack across the nose with the stick, and that was a horse that charged me. Well fitting thin, firm rope halter when we get to that point. Treat them the same as any other, with the exception that I need to be extra observant and this horse will have to be kept to a high standard of obedience. Most of it is solved in the round pen, and most of the changes happen very quickly.. you just have to prove to them that you are more dominant and a good leader which means firm and fair. Ask, insist, immediately release pressure when the horse complies even if it's only for a second before you have to put pressure back on again.


 You are right most of the time all it takes is a change of handler and treating them like a horse. Do you think horses in a herd have a problem with kicking each other or taking a mouth full of hair out the other if he is out of line? Laying a rope over his butt isn't nearly as tough as what horses will do to each other. 



> Often times aggression is not even the issue, it is protective behavior brought on by fear, once you get rid of the fear the aggression is no longer present. If that is the case the harder you are the worse it gets, that is where the release is so important. Each event is dealt with and then the slate wiped clean. Make sure every step is 100% and don't cut corners. Once you get there it's a matter of watching for any sign of disrespect and dealing with it immediately. Don't let the molehills become mountains.
> 
> The last one had learned to bully her 10 yr old rider. Nasty glares, biting, kicking, using the body as a weapon, and charging. I never even got the stick out, a training lead was enough.


 I used to buy and re-sell sale barn horses. (Call me ignorant, but I never recall hearing the word rescue until the horse market crashed)About 98% of them were spoiled and managed to buffalo their previous owners so they get hauled off to the sale. Fear wasn't the issue, it was lack of competent training/handling. Your last incident with the horse that bullied the 10 year girl I seriously doubt was fear. 
Neither was the horse that Clinton dealt with.(nor was it true aggression) The horse wasn't fearful, he was bored and had a incompetent owner and the horse took advantage, learned to call her bluff. So a couple of smacks on the as$ from someone who was confident to take it that level solved the problem it wasn't magic nor was it abuse. You do what is necessary in the moment, don't get emotional and move on. 



> A better question would be how far as a trainer are you willing to go? If a bullwhip is acceptable what is next? Withholding water? Chain? Cattle prod? Ruining a horse's wind? Wire instead of a bit? Soreing legs?


 I will go as far as necessary with the knowledge that I have. Just because I have no problem with striping one's butt for coming at me doesn't mean I feel the need to torture. You seem to be lumping it all into one category.


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## Hannah1996

Is it bad I giggled a little when the horse was chasing her? Im glad he put that horse in its place, it was much needed.


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## waresbear

There is no abuse is this video, just training. Never watched any CA's stuff before, but what he did there was fine with me. Any horse who shows aggression towards human flesh must be dealt with. Any other horse that would show aggression towards a bossy mare I once owned would have been dealt with way more painfully than a few smacks from a whip. See how that works?


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## DraftyAiresMum

Hannah1996 said:


> Is it bad I giggled a little when the horse was chasing her? Im glad he put that horse in its place, it was much needed.


No, I did, too. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fort fireman

My grandpa used to always say" you can always tell a person who has had a good old fashion a$$ whippin, they know how to treat people" the same can be said for horses sometimes.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

waymire01 said:


> A better question would be how far as a trainer are you willing to go? If a bullwhip is acceptable what is next? Withholding water? Chain? Cattle prod? Ruining a horse's wind? Wire instead of a bit? Soreing legs?


I'm as gentle as I can be and as tough as I need to be. I will swing a bullwhip, a chair or a bucket, I don't really care what the object is, when I need an immediate, "HAY WHAT THE HADES ARE YOU THINKING?" attention grabber, I'll swing whatever I can get my hands on. 

What's next? Whatever it takes to refocus the horse. Rarely would I think I'd need to beat a horse, usually one good swift whack, even with a soft rubber tub is good enough to get them to go, "HUH? Oh you wanted ME?". Would I swing a chain? Sure. Would I hit the horse with it? Doubtful, I usually have much more effective things to hand. But, I would hit a wall of an arena or the side of a round pen to make a lot of noise, if that's what it took to get the horse to focus on me. Cattle prod? No, again, I think my usual training tools are sufficient. My favorite tools are my glare and my stare, people say I can lay my ears as flat as any mare. 

Ruining a horses wind? Honestly? I wouldn't even know how to do that, no do I see a purpose behind it, except to ruin an expensive horse. Wire instead of a bit? Again, no, that doesn't teach. Soreing legs? Again Why? None of these are effective training methods.

An example of how I would do a horse that was out of hand and verging on dangerous would be this. A mare, who was NOT troublesome for the farrier, took it in her head to take my barn worker dirt skiing instead of standing for the farrier. I saw this as I turned into the drive coming home from the feed store. I came flying out of the truck, grabbed my whip, which is more than a lunge whip but less than a stock whip, and ran into the yard and grabbed the lead rope from the barn helper. I started toward the farrier and the mare tried to run up over me, so I planted my feet, pinned my ears, gave her the "You are SO going to wish you hadn't done this!" mare stare and braced my whip and got her upside her head twice, very quickly, let her run into the whip so to speak. She stopped dead in her tracks, looked a me, licked her lips and immediately stood for the farrier. I petted her, told her, "Good girl" and gave her a carrot when he was done with her. What set her off? I have no idea, nor do I care, she was going to hurt someone with her stupidity. She never again acted up for the farrier. And I never again raised a hand to her.


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## waresbear

Sometimes training is not for the faint of heart.


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## Corporal

Oh My Gosh---I expected to see a program that I had missed. Instead, I remember watching this.
OP, you haven't seen any out of control and *very dangerous* horses go through auctions where _*EVERYBODY*_ has given up on them. These out of control horses are moved with cattle prods to get them through the auction ring and them moved for slaughter, again prodded into a trailer.
FAAAAAARRRRRR different that the end of THIS program. =/
As a RESPONSIBLE horse owner it is imperative to set boundaries and maintain them. I imagine you will think ME a beast when I tell you about last month. My very good mare decided to leave the barn walk on the ice and walk out of the gate that I had neglected to close. I thought, no WAY will she do that, but she knew that she could walk faster on the ice that I could. I got a whip and a rope and went after her, as she walked between the houses across the street, then down the alley, and I knew that she would double back to the barn bc my geldings were shut in Their stalls.
My dogs were pretty nill useless after ALL of the complaints that they shouldn't cross the street to chase her. ("Duuuuuck,"--their pet name for me--you TOLD us we weren't supposed to cross the streeeeeettttt!!) They did accompany me when I crossed it. It took forEVER to get around the house and then I spotted her, walking back through the open gate towards the barn door.
I was......furious. I walked in the barn, and THERE she was 1/2 way in the stall, big butt facing me. I gave her one good whack on the butt. She scooted to the other side of the stall. She KNEW why, and so did my boys.
This was not the first time that she has gone on an "adventure". Despite being 3/3 in the herd, the boys follow HER when they don't know what to do. They all got out last October, and my DD's had to lead them back, one mile down the road. Until they caught _her_, the other two weren't listening. After that, they all walked peaceably home.
My mare was friendly and normal next morning. NOT frightened of me.
There are times when you must make a point. Point made. Moved on.


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## loveduffy

first welcome I did not see any thing wrong with what he did I have at time had to go after a horse that tried to hurt the owner and now me and this horse are good as could be


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## tinaev

I am one of those tree huggers he mentions at 12:04 and even I don't think he did anything wrong. That horse needed an attitude adjustment and it is only in his best interest that he get it quickly before he does damage to a human and winds up being put down.

I lost my cool with my horse once. It was not a moment I am proud of. Much like what CA says about acting like you're on crack in that video. That's exactly how I responded. I lost my cool in anger and went after Rio. I was done. I'm sure it wasn't as good as if I had done it in a cool, training mindset, but that was also the last time my horse repeated that behavior. One 30 second outburst from me took care of a months long problem.


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## Sugar

tinaev said:


> I am one of those tree huggers he mentions at 12:04 and even I don't think he did anything wrong. That horse needed an attitude adjustment and it is only in his best interest that he get it quickly before he does damage to a human and winds up being put down.
> 
> I lost my cool with my horse once. It was not a moment I am proud of. Much like what CA says about acting like you're on crack in that video. That's exactly how I responded. I lost my cool in anger and went after Rio. I was done. I'm sure it wasn't as good as if I had done it in a cool, training mindset, but that was also the last time my horse repeated that behavior. One 30 second outburst from me took care of a months long problem.


Anyone who has experience with observing feral horses... that's just the way it is. They have a lot of wonderful, intense, soft and subtle interaction with each other. But _*unwanted*_ behavior is nipped in the bud extremely quick, flat out, no apologies.


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## KigerQueen

my little arabian mare is normally an sweetheart on the ground. but there have been a cuple of times where she flipped on the "psycho" switch on me. She ran at me and tried to run me over, at one point she nearly knocked me to the ground. And i will tell you something, i put the fear of god into that horse. I gave her a good thumping with the rope she wont soon forget. We have not had an issue since. this horse fallows me around like a lost puppy, we groom each other and she has no fear of me. she needed to be reminded who is boss and what she can and cant get away with.
I have seen what aggressive horses can do, i have seen a horse PICK SOMEONE UP! I have seen someone dragged and kicked by a snotty disrespectful horse. My old Bo (elderly women who just had hip surgery) was leading the other boarders QH back to her stall. She yelled and i turned to see a 1500lb halter bred qh mare thunder down the isle and into the wrong stall. I went into the stall to get her (bo was hurting and obviously could not handle her. Snot aimed a double barrel kick RIGHT at my head! I hit her so hard and fast with the rope she spun around and just looked at me. i walked up to her and lead her out of the stall with no issues.


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## Foxhunter

I sold a very laid back 14.2 jumping pony when the owner had outgrown him. This was an easy animal, I had even used him for RDA (Riding for the Disabled) off a lead yet when it came to jumping he was nearly always in the top three. 

He was sold as being good all round, traffic, showing catch clipping etc. 

I get a call from the new owner a month or so after he was sold as being impossible to get near with the clippers. I couldn't believe it as I had never had a problem. I went over to see. 
The new owner switched the clippers on and he swing his butt around threatening to kick, she moved away. 
I took the clippers and picked up a twitch that was there, the woman was insistent he would need it. 
As he swung his butt to me so I brought the twitch down across his butt. One hard whack. He moved away fast, turned looked at me, sighed and stood there. He wasn't afraid just found he could frighten the new, so called experienced, owner.

As I said he was a very laid back pony yet it had taken him very little time to assess the situation and take advantage. 

The video horse had been a pasture puff, never asked to do anything with his owner. Obviously he had learned to boss them, probably they dumped his feed and moved away, so when he was asked to do something he didn't want or understand, the he used what he had used most of his life and that was to threaten and chase.


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## george the mule

*just like this*

Hi All!



WillowNightwind said:


> Can I just say that one of my biggest pet peeves is people's skewed view on discipline?
> 
> It's not just with horses, it's with children as well. We now live in an age where discipline is often pegged as abuse. While I am not a parent, I get anxiety just thinking about strangers watching me discipline my misbehaving child - because you know there are people who will call child services on a parent giving their kid a good spanking in public (grocery stores anyone?) for being a little snot.
> 
> *Discipline is necessary, but abuse is not - that is the difference here.*


Horses are so very much like young children. Very large, and not overly bright young children.

Modern psychology and/or the public perception of it has put our society at a distinct disadvantage IMO. Love, praise, respect, discipline; all necessary in a well rounded individual. Loose the respect and discipline part, and what is left? A dangerous child.

I think we're fighting a loosing battle here tho, friends 

And this is not coming to you from a god-fearing bible banger either; to the extent that I am religious, I am Buddhist. But there is something to be said for family and family values. My $.02.

ByeBye! Steve


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## Sheepdog

At the stables I learned to ride a petite lady had a 16hh Saddler Gelding who had the definate idea in his head that HE was the boss in their relationship. He had on at least one occasion thrown her, kiicked her and generally were a jerk. Her 12 year old equally petite daughter was the horses' other handler and towards her he was equally much of a jerk. he never had a problem with the trainers or the staff who when the owner wasn't around handled him. 
One day mommy dear wasn't there to stop her daughter from treating the horse like, well a horse and on recommendation of the trainer when he misbehaved she smacked him so hard, a friend who was there said it sounded like a gunshot going off. The horse went like "yes Boss!!" and from that day onwards he toed the line with the daughter. With the mother, not so much.


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## Saddlebag

It amazed me when looking back that most of the horse problems began to arise when women/girls decided they wanted the horse to love them. When horses were treated like horses, things usually went pretty good as it involved the occasional smack. I have two I've never needed to smack but it will happen if it warrants it. My glare and walking with intent works quite well.


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## Textan49

I have two separate thoughts on the CA video and any others like it. The first is toward the people that allow an animal to become that dangerous in the first place. You don't need a bull whip to correct a horse when he first starts to get the "I'm in charge attitude" . Very often all it takes is a confident attitude or one slap for the horse to know that he can't intimidate you. It is a sad thing when the only recourse is as serious as this.
The second thing is we can only do certain things correctly. Just because we are studying a certain trainers methods doesn't mean that we can get the exact results that the trainer does. I see many inexperienced people trying to do what they saw a pro do on a video and only make matters worse. I hear a lot of talk about respect and disrespect. I can tell the difference between a horse testing me a little, a dangerous one, and one that just has a label of "dangerous". A little ear pinning or butt turning I ignore and we get the job done. A threat gets a light reprimand and we get the job done. anything beyond that and we deal with the problem and then get the job done. I am not saying that I have handled some of the worst cases out there. but with all the horses I have worked with in over fifty years I have had very little problem with aggression. BTW training videos didn't exist when I started


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## BreezylBeezyl

Saddlebag said:


> It amazed me when looking back that most of the horse problems began to arise when women/girls decided they wanted the horse to love them


Sounding a lot like RG there! :rofl: I'm just kidding.

But you're right. Some people tend to be very sensitive about what their horse thinks about them - I've been there. It still comes up sometimes, but I am conscious enough to remind myself that I need to treat my horse like a horse and not a dog. I can't be her best friend, but I CAN be her leader.

I find a relationship with a horse can be seen more like a 'business' relationship than a personal one. The things your horse wants and needs from you are more relative to what you might need from your boss, for example.

You need someone who will give you support, guidance, and good leadership to succeed. A good boss will give you the tools to succeed and the support to do so, and will go as far as to making compromises for you.

I try my hardest to treat my horse similarly, and it's much more effective than me trying to be her best friend.


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## Incitatus32

waymire01 said:


> The worst part is that this horse has no idea what brought on this whipping. He did not act aggressively before the whipping started.


I just want to say that this is a VERY SHORT video. While I'm not a die hard CA fan I will say that more than likely he went in, saw what the fuss was about, gauged what the horse needed and then his camera crew began filming when things got 'interesting'. Because let's face it, the crew is there to sell action, not a trainer going through all of his steps. 



waymire01 said:


> He was given no opportunity to comply. He was not allowed to make the mistake he was punished for. From his perspective some stranger walked into his pen and beat the crap out of him.


Yet again, we're given a very short clip. A mean horse doesn't NEED the chance to make a mistake. Trust me when I say that a truly mean horse WILL kill you. That horse showed no indication that it DID NOT know what CA was doing, he seemed fairly comfortable where the dynamic ended up and knew where he stood with that man. 




waymire01 said:


> CA stated that he didn't canter when he pointed.. at what point was he taught what that cue means? He also stated that he turned his butt towards him.. when was he taught an inside turn? The only way he would have turned in at that speed and with that much fear the very first time would have been by sheer luck.


All the horses I've roundpenned have figured out the cues in about five minuets. It's body language which is what they are best at reading. 

I want to reiterate for the upteenth time that while i'm not a severe CA fan I recognize that this video is miniscule in representing his methods as a trainer. In all honesty it probably took him a lot longer than the video makes it seem to get the horse to respond to him, and probably incorporated numerous chances and times to let the horse relax. Camera crews sell action and debate, I'm sure if they would've filmed him spending thirty minuets or so just letting the horse stand there and think while he walked up to it and attempted to let it make the right choice, they cut that out before publishing the video.


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## anndankev

Regarding the scene of the woman inside the feeder and running around it with the horse chasing. 

I feel it was staged and she was directed for the purpose of the production. Have no idea if she paid for CA to come there, or was selected for marketing purposes for no fee, or possibly received payment for being a part of it. 

She definitely paid a price though, in loss of reputation as an effective trainer, as evidenced by several posts including that they would never send a horse to her for training.

The swings of the training stick were wild, not with an appropriate target that I could see. And not even with enough power to propel the line without it wavering in the air. 

The running seemed to be an enticement for the horse to chase, at first with ears up as in a game, then transferring to ears flat with apparent intent to do harm. As in, it started as a fun game to him then when he had the upper hand, he went on to teach her a lesson.

She did have those things set up and had used them ineffectually beforehand, and had been run out of the pen, true by admission. Possibly though it was a bit embarrassing to her to replay the role as such a wimp. 

One aspect I found interesting was that she genuinely did not seem to use her leading hand to direct the horse at all. CA had to go up to her and physically lift her arm, even after repeatedly telling her to do so. Then she immediately dropped it, not using it again until told and told, again and again.

I am neither a professional nor an expert. And I tend to do more online work than off. However; I go by the idea that when online act as much as possible as if there is no line. And when offline act as much as possible as if there is a line. So when there is no line, my nose hand would be active and up, giving direction

She definitely paid a price for CA to be there.


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## TamandNickP

I saw two marks on the horses' flanks. I would say that most of the time he was hitting the ground behind the horse to drive him forward. I would not tolerate any horse treating me like that woman did. They know fear, what else could she expect to get in return? She only compounded the problem. A shame. She lost her confidence and he gained it.

I worked with Standardbreds for years. The old guy I worked for took on a gelding that his friend couldn't get to the track. He would throw himself down in the harness on the track, attached to the jog cart. The owner would then sit on him and beat him with the whip. When we got him, he was dangerous in the cross ties. He would bite, strike, cow kick, and kick. I was his groom/trainer. I carried a whip with me always around him, along with a pocket full of carrot pieces. A bite got a pop in the nose, a strike a crack on the offending appendage with the whip, same with the kicking. I would then proceed with the grooming. Nice behavior immediately got praise, pats and carrots. It wasn't long before he was lovely. I could groom, bathe, harness, clip, anything I wanted to do. He was kind, patient, willing and gentle. 

The previous owners had taught him that work only brought him fear and pain. I was lucky that he even turned around. I never regretted hitting this horse when he was dangerous. But I think that the respect it earned me, along with the kindness he received after exhibiting proper behavior, helped him to be the sweetheart that he truly was. 
Hope this post doesn't offend. :?


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## Corporal

I think the SB you are speaking of had a much more serious, but_ somewhat similar problem_ as my 16'3hh KMH gelding. I spent so much time retraining middle aged horses, many who would test you, that my first reaction is to use my voice and be very pushy. My gelding had gotten scared first from his first owner--he was a "retread" from the breeder--and then, from me. Every time I have fought with him, he would be frightened and refuse to move.
I had applied CA's method to him, and now I ask FIRST with the amount of pressure that I would like him to move with, and give him a CHANCE to behave, and then I escalate. He and I have developed a good working relationship, and often when I turn him out, he waits to have his face rubbed. He is a work in progress, but I'm very proud of how my 1,900 lb boy doesn't ever run into me, will back into anything and doesn't rush under halter.
EVERY horse is unique. I would trust CA to train ANY of my horses. There is NO way you can "pretend" on a program that an animal is trained. The animal either IS trained or NOT trained. When you know how to read a horse, you KNOW when that horse trusts the handler and is listening, alert, one foot cocked, head down, level or slightly lower than the withers, or walking with his tail up in the air, which is reminiscent of a dog wagging his tail. That is what I see as a result of his training method.
There are many other excellent horse trainers out there and their ideas are similar or modify the same ideas.
CA has come up with a way to translate good horse training to people who don't have experience to fix their own problems, and those people are not ready to give up on their horse, yet.
Yes, he hawks. Anybody here making a mint with their horse business?!?!?
OP, I hope that you have considered the excellent posts made here on this thread.
Horses that have not been gentled and taught proper human leadership end up having to be BROKEN. 
I watched this program. CA gave this horse one chance to behave. This horse went on the attack and using a bull whip on his Hind end established who was the leader in the clearest form of "horse" possible. CA did not continue to beat the horse. (If you want an example of beating a horse unneccessarily, there are several films, including "Amazing Grace.")


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## Sugar

I'm amazed at how often people don't understand the basic concepts.

Last night walking back from the paddock, we were just hanging out in the child-free silence of evening, and grazing the really fresh greens that are popping up everywhere. It was lovely (minus the constant mosquito slapping).

So this morning, of course, she wants to go munch it again. Freaking DUH. I like to eat cold pizza in the morning when I've had it the night before. And if DH isn't looking, I will absolutely eat leftover chocolate cake in the morning with my coffee. Of course she wants to eat the spring greens again! Alas, no time for it today. So she tries to manipulate me into it. She trots in front of me and circles me to cut me off, and lead me to the spot. Not once, but twice. Now we _are_ BFF, and a lot got us there. I know a lot of people here will say that I'm anthropomorphizing her. I don't care, I'll wear the letter A with pride, because we've literally been through a lot, and we are two soul-bonded women. We have each other's back in equal portion. I'm not the only protector here. This girl has physically protected me from a couple of violent horses on different occasions, just as I have stepped between her a few humans. You do NOT touch either one of us, if the other is anywhere nearby. I know she's not trying to bully _*me*_. There will be no bite, no kick, no rear, no bared teeth. I know she wouldn't run me down. Just like she knows I'm not going to pop her. Her behaviour wasn't testing *me*, it was just her "Please, I really want some. Aw, come on! Just a nibble.". And all I had to do was look at her, and move forward, because today was not the day. And we walked on to the paddock. That's fine for our relationship. She made her request totally clear so that I could not misunderstand what she desired, and I was equally clear that we are not pulling over for a happy meal today.

Now if someone who didn't know my mare. My little, but powerful mustang mare. And she cut them off twice, how would they feel? That can be intimidating with a strange horse! What will they do next? Is this their warning, before they run into me? What is their next move? Do they cut you off once before they rear? Twice before they buck? OMG is this horse a kicker?! And they react fearfully. And bob's your uncle, the horse is like: "Nice! I didn't think it would really work! So awesome, it totally worked. I'm so gonna try that tomorrow."

If I was handling a strange horse, and it acted EXACTLY as my mare did today, I would have the end of the lead prepared in my offhand to pop if I had to. Because with a strange horse you do NOT know what to expect. Maybe that strange horse will cut you off twice, before it rips a chunk out of you. Or maybe it just circles twice before it drops its' head at the failed precociousness, and follows you straight into the fires of hell, because you asked.

I did NOT in any way have my lead prepared to pop, today. No reason to. Would I expect a stranger leading my horse to have it prepared to pop? Yeah. Would I have been surprised if they had popped her on the second pass? Nope.

I love my horse, but she's a horse. She loves her human, but you know what? I'm still a **** human. Our love cannot change who we are. My love for her, doesn't make her desire to act like a horse magically disappear, and her love for me, doesn't make me any less likely to shut her up in a fenced box, or put a bridle on her. We would walk into the fires of hell side by side, but she will always be a horse, and I will always be a human. We've become a little bit bilingual... I speak a bit of horse for her, and she speaks a bit of human for me, but at the end of the day we will still act as horses and humans act.


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## Saddlebag

My horses and I have an understanding, we do it my way. There was no bond. A bond occurs between a parent and it's offspring.


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## waymire01

COWCHICK77 said:


> Just curious, what did you try? did you ever give her a good smack?
> 
> You are right most of the time all it takes is a change of handler and treating them like a horse. Do you think horses in a herd have a problem with kicking each other or taking a mouth full of hair out the other if he is out of line? Laying a rope over his butt isn't nearly as tough as what horses will do to each other.
> 
> I used to buy and re-sell sale barn horses. (Call me ignorant, but I never recall hearing the word rescue until the horse market crashed)About 98% of them were spoiled and managed to buffalo their previous owners so they get hauled off to the sale. Fear wasn't the issue, it was lack of competent training/handling. Your last incident with the horse that bullied the 10 year girl I seriously doubt was fear.
> Neither was the horse that Clinton dealt with.(nor was it true aggression) The horse wasn't fearful, he was bored and had a incompetent owner and the horse took advantage, learned to call her bluff. So a couple of smacks on the as$ from someone who was confident to take it that level solved the problem it wasn't magic nor was it abuse. You do what is necessary in the moment, don't get emotional and move on.
> 
> I will go as far as necessary with the knowledge that I have. Just because I have no problem with striping one's butt for coming at me doesn't mean I feel the need to torture. You seem to be lumping it all into one category.


No I don't have a problem with a good smack with a lead.. and a stick and string is basically just a lead on the end of a stick. I've found lunge whips to be more "flash than bang" as well, unless you are actually popping the flesh. The lash is nylon and quite flimsy. A bullwhip is an entirely different animal... this is the type of whip used to flay the flesh off of someones back. Those who use them in sport wear protective gear until very proficient and most have a story of being laid open by one in the beginning. They ARE a tool of torture and have been used that way for hundreds of years. I've had a difficult time finding photos online, probably due to the graphic nature.. here is a video of two idiots screwing around that clearly shows what one can do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoUjj-pmwmo

I agree the horse in question was not fearful, nor truly aggressive, just bored and figured out he could move her feet instead of the other way around. Ditto for the girls horse, thus the reason it took so little to change her mind. After getting a handle on the horse, I then trained the girl, and they haven't had a problem since.
The horse that was euthanized was truly aggressive. She would pin her ears, bare her teeth, and charge anyone who got near the round pen, slamming herself into the panels. She would attack when you brought her food or water. I was able to get her to respect the stick, and could get in and out of the pen safely and move her feet.. round pen sessions each day resulted in decent control from a distance, but she never gave up the desire to hurt someone who came into her space. I could get her to stand and face up, disengage the hips, but if you got within touching distance... even with the end of a lunge whip... she would charge. I have no idea her background, she was found running loose and unclaimed by a local sheriff who I had worked with in the past and he lured her into a pen with grain, backed a stock trailer to the gate, and lured/drove her into that as well. In the end she was loaded out the same way and was tranqued by the vet in the trailer. She was never touched the entire time, no one could get that close. The only other thing I could think to do was rope/throw her, but that takes a lot of skill to do correctly and no one I know locally would be capable. I have no idea what would drive a horse to that extreme.. but it couldn't have been good. Either she experienced something so traumatic that she felt she had to fight or die, or she was simply nuts. She was found with another older mare who was very fearful, but a total sweetheart and had obviously been handled quite a bit, was even broke to ride, so I'm pretty sure there was human contact at some point. I wound up keeping the older mare for myself, she has permanent atrophy of her topline from long term starvation, and special dietary needs. The younger mare was in much better shape.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I think you're missing a lot of what everyone is saying. Yes, CA used a bullwhip. Probably because it's handier to use that a carrot stick or lunge whip (not as unwieldy) and because it has more bite IF it makes contact. HOWEVER, he RARELY made contact with that horse. Most of his strikes were hitting the ground BEHIND the horse to get his butt moving. Yes, he landed a couple of blows, but that was more the horse's fault for not moving fast enough. At no point did I see CA actively try to hit that horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## danicelia24

I agree completely with what CA did as I have had to do that with a few horses myself (not with a bullwhip but definitely with a lunge whip). A mentor of mine was at a barn working with a few horses (no big deal) well when she was done she was walking by another person's horse when the horse reached over and grabbed her by the shoulder yanking her off her feet. The horse almost ripped her arm off and she had to punch the horse repeatedly in the mouth before it let her go. She then proceeded to take on the horse training wise and when it tried to attack again she put the fear of God into it. The horse never tried to go after her again because she refused to give the horse an inch especially when it had already attacked her once.


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## COWCHICK77

waymire01 said:


> No I don't have a problem with a good smack with a lead.. and a stick and string is basically just a lead on the end of a stick. I've found lunge whips to be more "flash than bang" as well, unless you are actually popping the flesh. The lash is nylon and quite flimsy. A bullwhip is an entirely different animal... this is the type of whip used to flay the flesh off of someones back. Those who use them in sport wear protective gear until very proficient and most have a story of being laid open by one in the beginning. They ARE a tool of torture and have been used that way for hundreds of years. I've had a difficult time finding photos online, probably due to the graphic nature.. here is a video of two idiots screwing around that clearly shows what one can do. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoUjj-pmwmo


 Waymire, obviously you have been around horses and heard, "tools are only as harsh as the hands using them".
When we were kids we used to get in lunge whip fights and welt the crap out of each other. And I have had my butt welted from a set of romels and split reins but that doesn't make them into torture devices. 
Same with using a hot shot on cattle, you can use them correctly or you can over use them and create hot, mad cattle that are soured and get on the fight when you put them in the lead up for the chute.
Stockwhips are meant for gathering cattle and know people that use them, they use the sound not to beat the crap out of everything. That is like saying all bits are evil because a select few jerk the **** out of horses' mouths.



> I agree the horse in question was not fearful, nor truly aggressive, just bored and figured out he could move her feet instead of the other way around. Ditto for the girls horse, thus the reason it took so little to change her mind. After getting a handle on the horse, I then trained the girl, and they haven't had a problem since.
> The horse that was euthanized was truly aggressive. She would pin her ears, bare her teeth, and charge anyone who got near the round pen, slamming herself into the panels. She would attack when you brought her food or water. I was able to get her to respect the stick, and could get in and out of the pen safely and move her feet.. round pen sessions each day resulted in decent control from a distance, but she never gave up the desire to hurt someone who came into her space. I could get her to stand and face up, disengage the hips, but if you got within touching distance... even with the end of a lunge whip... she would charge. I have no idea her background, she was found running loose and unclaimed by a local sheriff who I had worked with in the past and he lured her into a pen with grain, backed a stock trailer to the gate, and lured/drove her into that as well. In the end she was loaded out the same way and was tranqued by the vet in the trailer. She was never touched the entire time, no one could get that close. The only other thing I could think to do was rope/throw her, but that takes a lot of skill to do correctly and no one I know locally would be capable. I have no idea what would drive a horse to that extreme.. but it couldn't have been good. Either she experienced something so traumatic that she felt she had to fight or die, or she was simply nuts. She was found with another older mare who was very fearful, but a total sweetheart and had obviously been handled quite a bit, was even broke to ride, so I'm pretty sure there was human contact at some point. I wound up keeping the older mare for myself, she has permanent atrophy of her topline from long term starvation, and special dietary needs. The younger mare was in much better shape.


 I hope you don't think I am picking on you but I really want to know where your line of thinking is coming from especially since this was thread was your first post on this forum, no past posting history to get a feel for you.
So please forgive if I think it is odd that you find Clinton Anderson's use of the stock whip was excessive but yet you would of been okay with someone roping the mare you speak about. Most people wouldn't think that way. You care to elaborate?


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## waymire01

COWCHICK77 said:


> Stockwhips are meant for gathering cattle and know people that use them, they use the sound not to beat the crap out of everything. That is like saying all bits are evil because a select few jerk the **** out of horses' mouths.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you don't think I am picking on you but I really want to know where your line of thinking is coming from especially since this was thread was your first post on this forum, no past posting history to get a feel for you.
> So please forgive if I think it is odd that you find Clinton Anderson's use of the stock whip was excessive but yet you would of been okay with someone roping the mare you speak about. Most people wouldn't think that way. You care to elaborate?


Exactly. They are not used to beat the crap out of everything, because they are able to do massive amounts of damage. A cow with a split or scarred hide is not worth as much. Yet an amazing number of people seem to have no problem with it being used on a horse when other less extreme options would have worked.

As a last resort an experienced roper/horseman could rope the mare, lay her down, and then be able to make physical contact with her in a controlled way. It can make a huge difference, you can get past the physical defense they are using as a shield and prove to them you mean them no harm. You take the horse mentally to a point of surrender, and then prove it is safe with you. Capturing a leg is another less extreme option that has a similar effect. It takes a lot of talent and experience and done wrong can do a lot of damage. I am not that person and know better than to risk pain and damage to either myself or the horse by trying it.

I'm pretty sure I used to have an account here, but it's been a few years since I bothered to post. I felt others should be made aware that CA was capable of such actions, I was completely shocked. Apparently I need not have bothered because everyone considers it normal. The more responses I get the more I'm wondering what has become of the horses I've pieced back together and put out in the world.


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## DraftyAiresMum

waymire01 said:


> Exactly. They are not used to beat the crap out of everything, because they are able to do massive amounts of damage. A cow with a split or scarred hide is not worth as much. Yet an amazing number of people seem to have no problem with it being used on a horse when other less extreme options would have worked.


And you seem to be missing the point that you're pretty much the only one who thinks they saw CA actually strike the horse with the stock whip. Yes, the horse had maybe two dust stripes on its bum. That does not constitute BEATING the horse. CA was striking the ground behind the horse to get it to move and respond more quickly. The horse didn't get its bum out of the way in time and got popped with the whip. Look at CA's body language. Yes, he's big and authoritative in his body language. In no way does his body language say "I'm gonna beat the crap outta you." 

I also think CA chose the stock whip because it has a bigger sound that is made more easily than a pop with a lunge whip and because it does have more bite. It was quite apparent from the footage of the trainer working with the horse that the horse had no respect for the lunge whip. So, CA had to up the ante to something the horse would respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny

anndankev said:


> Regarding the scene of the woman inside the feeder and running around it with the horse chasing.
> 
> I feel it was staged and she was directed for the purpose of the production. Have no idea if she paid for CA to come there, or was selected for marketing purposes for no fee, or possibly received payment for being a part of it.
> 
> She definitely paid a price though, in loss of reputation as an effective trainer, as evidenced by several posts including that they would never send a horse to her for training.
> 
> The swings of the training stick were wild, not with an appropriate target that I could see. And not even with enough power to propel the line without it wavering in the air.
> 
> The running seemed to be an enticement for the horse to chase, at first with ears up as in a game, then transferring to ears flat with apparent intent to do harm. As in, it started as a fun game to him then when he had the upper hand, he went on to teach her a lesson.
> 
> She did have those things set up and had used them ineffectually beforehand, and had been run out of the pen, true by admission. Possibly though it was a bit embarrassing to her to replay the role as such a wimp.
> 
> One aspect I found interesting was that she genuinely did not seem to use her leading hand to direct the horse at all. CA had to go up to her and physically lift her arm, even after repeatedly telling her to do so. Then she immediately dropped it, not using it again until told and told, again and again.
> 
> I am neither a professional nor an expert. And I tend to do more online work than off. However; I go by the idea that when online act as much as possible as if there is no line. And when offline act as much as possible as if there is a line. So when there is no line, my nose hand would be active and up, giving direction
> 
> She definitely paid a price for CA to be there.


I gotta say that there was something "staged" looking about the video. maybe just the way she did not really run for the fence like "my life depends on it". it's interesting that you, too, had this impression. I was wondering if it was only me.

turning around and cracking that horse hard on his nose might have been all it took. but, it's easy to judge from the outside looking in.

What CA seemed to do was to change up this gelding's viewpoint. he went about it without waiting necessarily for a large demonstration of this bad attitude, but he knew that the gelding had it in him, and he did not want any time to be wasted in "grey territory". 

his objective was to say, basically, "there's a new reality . and this is how it goes!". waiting around for the perfect time to start is pointless, if you know that you'll get there anyway. if you do, you have this time where the horse is not exposed to the new reality, but allowed to persist in his mistaken belief that he IS king. it's just as well, perhaps, to waste no time in the gray, but go straight to showing him his new reality.

if he had dithered in half measures , waiting for the horse to do something big enough to really warrant his huge response, would it , ulitmately, make any difference?


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## tinaev

tinyliny said:


> I gotta say that there was something "staged" looking about the video. maybe just the way she did not really run for the fence like "my life depends on it". it's interesting that you, too, had this impression. I was wondering if it was only me.


I thought the same thing about the footage of her running out of the arena. I thought it was just a dramatic re-enactment for the purposes of the show. Like they do on true crime shows and such.


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## crazeepony

I see that this sort of thing in the right situations is the only way to wake the horse up. That horse isn't just naughty, he is deadly. A horse that comes at you with their front feet, as I was told, is a horse that intends to kill you. In reality, everyone would have ran scared and that horse would have ended up on the bus going to the kill buyers. A few wacks on the butt may have saved his life in the long run.


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## crazeepony

tinaev said:


> I thought the same thing about the footage of her running out of the arena. I thought it was just a dramatic re-enactment for the purposes of the show. Like they do on true crime shows and such.


It is very likely that some of that footage was reenacted. She sure didn't climb the fence like her life depended on it!!!


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## canterbury

I think CA made it clear that this was an extreme case where the horse could fatally hurt the owner if not corrected. The owner seemed to be considering euthanizing the horse too so I am thinking that although it is very unpleasant to watch, it was for the horse's benefit in the long run. I hope the lady succeeded.


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## Corporal

OP I am surprised that you believe this forum is populated by horse owners who advocate aggravated battery to train horses. =/
Perhaps it isn't what CA did to retrain this horse, but his constant salesmanship that offends you? It took me quite a while to look past that, just like I would look past a truly ugly head on an otherwise fine horse specimen.
I have learned from him. I am the trainer that gets aggressive first, and soothes the horse the second time. I have thought long and hard about this bc I don't like repeating the same remedy if it doesn't work. My KMH gelding is 1,900 pounds of "he could kill me". Certainly NOTHING to sneeze at. Still, I fix his small disobediences and every morning he calmly leads out of his stall for turnout bc I have decided to adopt CA's "method" and ask with ounces, then escalate, then stop and pet and praise....and it works.
He listens bc I listened to CA.
You know, many of us have not had an opportunity to apprentice with a good trainer. We learn from books and Internet and Tv Trainers...and trail and error. Fortunately for ME, studying Cook's Tactics and applying drills formulated for the 19th century US Cavalry taught me a lot, and I turned out good horses. It also took a a great deal of time. Now that I am 57yo, I am studying easier ways to achieve the same goals. I do not believe that proper ground training is a short cut. Even now my two geldings back on the ground better than my best finished horses ever did, and I am even squaring them off every morning on their way to turn out. (There is also a lot to be said for show preparation, too.)
I am not adverse to grabbing a whip when I need to. If I go the ER bc my horse made a stupid mistake, who will care for the herd? So WHAT if I misapply it a few times? My horses will get over it. MY safety is paramount!
OP, you should rethink this. I find your comments about the group here to be insulting.


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## Mulefeather

I have to agree Corporal. I’ve found some other trainers who had some truth to tell as far as laying down a firm foundation of respect for their animals from moment #1, and I began to take their advice to heart. Steve Edwards is a mule trainer from AZ who also advocates what I call “Don’t F*** Around” horsemanship/mulemanship. I was most recently able to use it on an older mule who belonged to a new acquaintance, and he had a deeply-ingrained habit of trying to drag people when being led, or simply walk off and drag you where he wanted to go. I put the chain over his nose first thing and corrected him each time he went to run on me. He got corrected when he chose poorly, praised and rubbed on when he chose well. I was able to get him moving his butt over at the swing of a rope and standing nicely for me within 20 minutes- and wouldn’t you know, I turned him out and he IMMEDIATELY came back and sought out my attention as I stood at the fence. No lead rope, nothing on him, all his choice. He’d been dragging the adults at this facility around for months since they bought him. 

There’s a difference between abuse and discipline, and many people have a hard time seeing it. In my mind, discipline is done judiciously, with a specific goal in mind- abuse is merely to satisfy the ego or vent the anger of the abuser until an arbitrary moment is reached (or the abuser gets tired). Discipline gives the horse a clearly defined “out”. He is essentially in control of his own experience, your job as a trainer is to define the “out” and help him find it. Abuse has no “out”, there is no way the horse knows how to control it and they either enter a state of panic, or they simply shut down. Discipline makes the distinction between what you DO want and what you DON’T want clear and easy for the animal to understand.


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## jenkat86

waymire01 said:


> . A bullwhip is an entirely different animal... this is the type of whip used to flay the flesh off of someones back. Those who use them in sport wear protective gear until very proficient and most have a story of being laid open by one in the beginning. They ARE a tool of torture and have been used that way for hundreds of years.


At what point of the video did you see broken flesh on that horse? 

While I agree with you that the particular tool in question may be intended for more menacing uses than training a horse, we must remember that a tool is only as "effective" as the hands holding it. Flesh was NOT taken off that horse. 

I could post pictures all day of HUMAN hands torn to shreds by ropes...lead ropes attached to horses at that. Now...a simple rope's use is not to take the skin off toughened hands, or break the fingers of the one holding it. It doesn't mean it hasn't happened. 

Back to a tool is only as effective as the one using it. Why are there "harsh" bits out there...because there are soft hands to use them. Now please don't take that last comment out of context. The abuse can come in when the person using the tool doesn't know how to communicate what they want through the tool. 

Just because something may be _intended_ for abuse, it does not mean that is the only use it can have.


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## Roman

waymire01 said:


> I'm pretty sure I used to have an account here, but it's been a few years since I bothered to post. I felt others should be made aware that CA was capable of such actions, I was completely shocked. Apparently I need not have bothered because everyone considers it normal. The more responses I get the more I'm wondering what has become of the horses I've pieced back together and put out in the world.


Well I'm sorry your rainbow and unicorn dreams aren't everyone else's. Everyone WILL NOT agree with you. I agree with everyone else where he didn't hit the horse everytime you heard a *crack*. And obviously the horse wasn't hurt - no blood, no welts. The only thing that was hurt was his dominance, that was brought low very quickly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse

I've spent some actual one on one time with Clinton. He's a hoot. I find him hilarious, fun to be around, humble, and all in all a reasonable and knowledgeable person.

I've ridden with some older guys in the NRCHA who aren't his biggest fan, but I've had luck with methods from multiple trainers both who do and do not agree with Clinton, as well as success with his method themselves. I don't religiously follow his program, I don't own the DVDs, I was in the No Worries Club for a bit and got some very interesting DVDs I liked watching. 

This is a new generation of horsemen. IN this world you have to market. I know a lot of people don't like this marketing scheme, but he does what he needs to and it's worked out well for him. I used to laugh and say I'd never buy his products, but when I had a chance to use them myself and have my hands on them I could see why they were so expensive and I loved using them. I ended up buying two stick and strings. They are the handiest things I've ever used, and WAY more feel than anything off brand.

Just my take. I have respect for him. Am I religious follower? No, but I don't think he deserves to be hated upon.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Corporal said:


> I am not adverse to grabbing a whip when I need to. If I go the ER bc my horse made a stupid mistake, who will care for the herd? So WHAT if I misapply it a few times? My horses will get over it. MY safety is paramount!
> OP, you should rethink this. I find your comments about the group here to be insulting.


"Free Bubble Up and Rainbow Stew" is a lovely concept, unfortunately there's never enough for everyone. After carefully reading this thread, I've come to the conclusion that people who are looking for abuse will always find it because they see what they want to see. I can't be insulted by someone like that because they are not living in the same reality I inhabit. :shock::lol:


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## Hannah1996

The only thing I didn't like in the video was how hard the horse was breathing after that workout. It was pretty obvious he got away with not having to work with his owner and when Clinton put him to work he really put him to work. I had a friend who's horse was as lazy as can be and when she took him to a trainer that trainer did the same thing Clinton did and the horse ended up dead from a heart attack. I'm glad the horse was alright though, every horse is different. You can tell he was definitely rethinking wanting to be the dominate one lol


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## Corporal

*Don't be dramatic. * Yes, it's possible, but _you _need to study up on horse anatomy. 
"Practical Horseman" had the most interesting article many years ago about the physical abilities of the horse vs the human. A horse can improve his cardiovascular system from very out of shape to top shape which is 25x better. Far different from a human. (couldn't find the article, but this is a good substitute:
Cardiac Conditioning – America’s Horse Daily)
A good trainer will "wind" a disrespectful horse. An idiot will kill one out of ignorance, like when a horse died close to us bc the owner left the trails and kept cantering this mare in a horse campsite until she dropped dead of a heart attack.
You probably don't know that different muscle groups become fully vital if you work them for a certain number of months and it varies. Bone density is achieved by pounding work, like on hard dirt, and not in a soft surface arena.
Ken McNabb has cautioned against driving mustangs with helicopters bc the herd will gallop in a frenzy and the foals will run themselves to death. Instead, he recommends using horses to drive them bc they will ALL move at the trot, which is the most efficient gait for a horse to travel long distances. That is also one of the two reasons why the preferred gait for driving horses is ALSO the trot. That, and the fact that it doesn't jerk the cart like the canter can.
Don't confuse discipline for kindness sake with abuse, like the OP has.


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## Palomine

Hadn't like him much before Friesian died at his place in TX, and darn sure haven't liked him since, period.


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## anndankev

I went back and watched it again today, kept clicking until it was full screen size.

The first hit the mark, at CA's entrance to the round pen and the depart wasn't quick enough and immediately laid back his ears, in my opinion it left a welt.

Beginning of the second session, evidently the next day, the welt was the only thing clearly visible on the horse at the time.

By the end there were several marks, at least some were dust/hair. But the first one was still a welt. Right or wrong I have no business judging, just that so many are saying there were no welts made me go back and look.

Concerning the winding of the horse, the session no doubt lasted longer than what ended up in the video.

Also I noticed an inserted clip marked home video where it seemed she was more sincere in her efforts than in the reenactment, and the horse seemed more sincere in his aggression.

Just saying.


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## SorrelHorse

I have no doubt some of the video was staged, but there is some that I believe was not staged. Does that make the quality of the episode decrease for me? Not really. The message is equally clear and I believe his timing on the discipline of the horse was well met. I would have done the same thing. 

Heck, I've been run over by horses who weren't aggressive (just disrespectful). If one was both disrespectful AND aggressive, you bet I would have come after him with something more than my measly stick and string. I once saw a man at a branding get stomped into the ground by a horse while he was holding a hot shot. He shocked the hell out of that horse and still got himself some broken bones and bite marks. I wouldn't feel one bit bad about knocking around a horse who came after me. If they want to pick a fight, let them. 

Though the thing I believe everyone is missing is that you don't act like that all the time. Eventually, you give them release. Eventually, someone wins that fight and you certainly hope it's you. When that happens, THEN you can be all sunshine and rainbows.


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## Hannah1996

I wasn't being dramatic, simply writing of an experience my friend went through, I'm sorry you felt that I was being dramatic, I wasn't. Obviously the horse was alright so it's all good


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## Patty Stiller

I watched the whole thing. I have NO problem with what he did .
Laying a few well timed welts on a horse who was that dangerously aggressive is not in any way" beating" . 
A welt heals. 
A dead human does not. I personally know TWO people who ended up in the ER and intensive care because they allowed their young horses to get more and more aggressive and would not do what had to be done to fix it. One five minute session just like that one, talking to the horse like a horse, at the volume needed for the situation, would have prevented it. 

And consider that had that horse offered that kind of aggression to a more dominant horse, he may have ended up with a broken knee or jaw from a kick. So a welt from a puny human is nothing compared to that,and well worth a future of getting along with and respecting humans. 

Did you see the change in that horse at the end? Or did you bother to watch it till the end? that horse will likely never need that level of correction again because he got FIXED right, in a few minutes .


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## COWCHICK77

waymire01 said:


> Exactly. They are not used to beat the crap out of everything, because they are able to do massive amounts of damage. A cow with a split or scarred hide is not worth as much. Yet an amazing number of people seem to have no problem with it being used on a horse when other less extreme options would have worked.


 Waymire, how the stock whip was used was not cracking, it was like using a stick and string. There is even a difference when using a lunge whip between it being cracked and hit with it and striping, like I said before we used to get in lunge whip fights as kids.

Also, split or scarred hide on cattle don't bring as much money???
Then why do our branded, ear marked and waddled cattle bring top prices? That is absolutely untrue. The hide has no bearing on price brought or marketability. 



> As a last resort an experienced roper/horseman could rope the mare, lay her down, and then be able to make physical contact with her in a controlled way. It can make a huge difference, you can get past the physical defense they are using as a shield and prove to them you mean them no harm. You take the horse mentally to a point of surrender, and then prove it is safe with you. Capturing a leg is another less extreme option that has a similar effect. It takes a lot of talent and experience and done wrong can do a lot of damage. I am not that person and know better than to risk pain and damage to either myself or the horse by trying it.


 I am fully aware about roping horses as it is what we do with our ranch raised colts. I will admit I was surprised to read that you were okay with that as most think of it as cruel yet smacking is not, just trying to understand where you're coming from.




> I'm pretty sure I used to have an account here, but it's been a few years since I bothered to post. I felt others should be made aware that CA was capable of such actions, I was completely shocked. Apparently I need not have bothered because everyone considers it normal. The more responses I get the more I'm wondering what has become of the horses I've pieced back together and put out in the world.


 Yes, it would be normal for anyone that would put an immediate stop to such behavior. Perhaps you should think of it as because of it being okay to smack a horse displaying those behaviors it has kept horses from going to the sale yard. It is about making the punishment fit the crime, not beating a horse senseless for a mistake or a minor infraction.


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## Amateur

I am no fan of the Parellis and the Clintons and the numerous NH gurus. but that horse needs some discipline. If someone can look at what that horse did and is worried about the human abusing it-well hope you get a saint dead broke, sweet non pushy steed. Pushy, testy horses will easily become dangerous with that attitude.

I think Clinton was pretty good-but no fan of his.


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## Larissa

If you look for abuse you can will find it. Heck, someone would probably say you were abusing your horse if you yelled at it and got in its face. So that is irrelevant. The horse wasn't scared or traumatized afterward. I have zero tolerance for a disrespectful, and or aggressive horse. I would have done the exact same thing. Ever wonder why all these horses end up going to slaughter, glue factories, sales, etc? Usually lies between two things ~ some horses should NOT be bred, and some people should NOT own horses. The market for a horse who is dangerous is very low, add grade on top of it. And there is none. Besides the slaughter house. So yell abuse all you want. But I would much rather see a horse whooped on the butt a few times, then shipped off to slaughter. Or live it's days in a rescue because nobody wants it. I guarantee if that horse killed or seriously hurt someone, nobody would want it. CA did that horse a favor, and saved it in many ways. It was foolish on the owner/trainer to let it get to that point, but it did. So it needed addressed now. I don't follow CA religiously, but I do respect him and his method. I have yet to find a horse it doesn't work on from quarter horses to Connemara ponies to Morgans and Thoroughbreds. The proof is in the pudding. Don't like his method? Don't use it. But if he was that bad, he would not be selling signature horses, doing tours, have all the no worries club members, and be making a living.


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## tinyliny

I am sure the horse needed a change up in his view of the world. what I don't like about CA is that his whole approach is one of aggressive confrontation. it is so unlike my own trainer. she , too , would probably be getting real big in dealing with a horse like this, and it would look ugly. but every video I see of CA, his wording, the way the video's lead-in spin (with him on a mountain, or him riding the snot out of some cow horse or cracking a whip) is to portray so much aggressive energy that nothing else can exist in it's presence. He is so "loud" that I wonder if he can hear anything but his own bravado.


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## anndankev

Larissa said:


> ... But I would much rather see a horse whooped on the butt a few times, then shipped off to slaughter...



Again, not judging here. Just commenting on the difference a single letter can make, and wondering if either way would apply to the above sentence.

Either:

Rather see a horse whooped on the butt a few times, then shipped off to slaughter

Or

Rather see a horse whooped on the butt a few times, than shipped off to slaughter


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## farmpony84

I have had a horse charge me and be not quite that aggressive, but I will admit, it scared me bad. I didn't know how to react to it and so rather than deal with it, I just didn't lunge. I have to say, I love that ladies idea of putting the hay feeder in the middle. That would have given me just enough false sense of security that I may have been able to face my fear beacause my horse was being more controlling then nasty.

I went to a CA trainer to teach me how to fix my problem. I'm a CA fan.


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## Larissa

anndankev said:


> Again, not judging here. Just commenting on the difference a single letter can make, and wondering if either way would apply to the above sentence.
> 
> Either:
> 
> Rather see a horse whooped on the butt a few times, then shipped off to slaughter
> 
> Or
> 
> Rather see a horse whooped on the butt a few times, than shipped off to slaughter


Typo... I meant than.


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## LittleBayMare

Like any pre-packaged program, CA has good points and bad points. I try to approach these types of programs with a cautiously open mind (key word there: cautiously). I have the opinion that I can learn something from everyone. Sometimes that thing is simply what _not_ to do. I've learned some positive things from CA's method. I've also learned some "what-not-to-do" things from his program. This would be an example of a positive thing when applied correctly. A "what-not-to-do" that I got from his program is his front-to-back approach to collection. He doesn't call it collection, but that's what it is. Buyer beware.


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## boots

All the whip cracking made me laugh. We use bull whips to move cattle in the mountains. We use them twice in a year. To take them up. To bring them off. When they hear the crack, they know they are moving. Other than those two times, we don't even carry them.

You cannot make a whip crack when you connect with an animal. This video was quite hyped. Unfortunate, since some goombah is going to think it magic. Maybe Anderson has a financial interest in a bullwhip factory! 

I can get the same reaction by growling "Geeeeet moving!" or "Go! Go! Go! Go!" The most excited I get is to occasionally toss my felt hat at some spoiled old Dobbin's hind end. But I doubt anyone would pay to watch that. lol Nor would I let anyone on my place to video it!

But I wouldn't stroll up the driveway either. Not even for a video. Oh, well, whatever gets the audience, I suppose.

Overall the dude is more showman than I'd want to be around, but I didn't see anything horrid from him either. He just needs to rein in his sound man.


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## jenkat86

boots said:


> Maybe Anderson has a financial interest in a bullwhip factory!


This got me curious and I went to his website. If you look in his store he does have an Australian stock whip for sale...at $179! :lol:


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## Joel Reiter

jenkat86 said:


> If you look in his store he does have an Australian stock whip for sale...at $179!


Yes he does. And Down Under Saddle Supply has them from $330-$459. Aussiewhipmaker.com sells them for $216 to $493. Western Stage Props has one for $550. The Whip Shed has a budget whip for $40 and several more at $200-$255. At Stock whips, Australians stock whips start at $330 and range to $985. So what's your point?

Clinton Anderson uses an Australian stock whip mainly as a desensitizing tool. He offers one in his catalog, but doesn't push it, because most people have enough trouble learning how to use a stick and string.

I get a kick out of people who think clinicians are crooks for selling halters for $35 when the same people tell me I'd be buying junk if I bought a new saddle for less than a thousand dollars.


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## jenkat86

Joel Reiter said:


> Yes he does. And Down Under Saddle Supply has them from $330-$459. Aussiewhipmaker.com sells them for $216 to $493. Western Stage Props has one for $550. The Whip Shed has a budget whip for $40 and several more at $200-$255. At Stock whips, Australians stock whips start at $330 and range to $985. So what's your point?
> 
> Clinton Anderson uses an Australian stock whip mainly as a desensitizing tool. He offers one in his catalog, but doesn't push it, because most people have enough trouble learning how to use a stick and string.
> 
> I get a kick out of people who think clinicians are crooks for selling halters for $35 when the same people tell me I'd be buying junk if I bought a new saddle for less than a thousand dollars.


You took my comment out of context- which I can see how.

My comment was to go along with Boot's comment about wondering if he had stock in bullwhips. My point was that he does sell these things in his store. Therefore they are something promoted by him. And I DO think $179 is a heck of a LOW price for a decent made one... If the whip in question is indeed decently made. The laughing emoji was simply to tie together our two comments.


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## greenhaven

Mulefeather said:


> There’s a difference between abuse and discipline, and many people have a hard time seeing it. In my mind, discipline is done judiciously, with a specific goal in mind- abuse is merely to satisfy the ego or vent the anger of the abuser until an arbitrary moment is reached (or the abuser gets tired). Discipline gives the horse a clearly defined “out”. He is essentially in control of his own experience, your job as a trainer is to define the “out” and help him find it. Abuse has no “out”, there is no way the horse knows how to control it and they either enter a state of panic, or they simply shut down. Discipline makes the distinction between what you DO want and what you DON’T want clear and easy for the animal to understand.


PERFECTLY stated.




Joel Reiter said:


> Clinton Anderson uses an Australian stock whip mainly as a desensitizing tool. He offers one in his catalog, but doesn't push it, because most people have enough trouble learning how to use a stick and string..


I just put a 14 ft yacht rope lead on my halter and it is like I have never handled a horse before.

Anyway, interesting read. I ddin't watch the video, didn't feel I needed to. I have never dealt with an outright aggressive horse, but have been around horses long enough to know that a spoiled horse gets dangerous real quick. When I brought home a spoiled 3 year old last fall you can bet your sweet bippy I firmly laid down the ground rules before it ever had a chance to escalate. I am a huge advocate of "ounces" but mine is a horse who did not, at that time, understand ounces. We have spent lots of productive time working backwards from "pounds.". Life is too short and too valuable to be killed by a horse whether the animal is aggressive or spoiled or the handler simply not paying attention.


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## shadowfax211

I saw CA do what he does best. You don't go into a round pen and wait for the bomb to go off. I like the way it was handled and rewarded the horse for good behavior by leaving the pen. It only took a few minutes for the horse to realize what was expected. Everything ended on a good note for the trainer and the horse. Everything is relative in the horse world. Some horses are easy from the start and some have a heard head, but get it quickly with consistent training. Sorry Waymire01, I guess I just don't see what you think you saw.


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## Jessabel

I'm not a huge fan of any big name trainer, but I'm with Clinton on that one. The horse needed a whooping. He'd been getting away with a dangerous vice for a long time, and that's not something to mess around with.

I love my horse to the moon and back, but if he ever pulled something like that, you bet I'd tan his hide. If they get by with it once, they'll do it again worse.


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## Chicalia

Sugar said:


> I watched a couple more. I'm trying to get a handle on what defines "natural horsemanship". And what is the opposite of natural horsemanship?? I don't really understand the genres very well.


I read this article the other day, and I think it addresses both of your questions well. Here's a quote (but please check out the article...it's really thought-provoking!):



> ...the idea that many of the methods commonly boxed and sold to the public as innovations created recently by some clinicians comprising a totally new revolution in working with horses is likewise misleading. Really exceptional horse folk have existed at times since humans began working with horses. The main difference today is that the discussion about how one gets that good is at an entirely new level. It is a global discussion, and the language of horsemanship is morphing to meet this challenge. But many examples exist to show how the ideas so often now packaged and sold as original breakthroughs have been around for ages.


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## Mulefeather

The argument of "It's been around forever!" is a bit, excuse the pun, hackneyed in this instance. 

I know people love to hate on "boxed" methods because of the expense and whatever other reasons people love to hate on clinicians, but to me they can make sense for someone who really needs a methodical way to learn horsemanship, with a series of lessons progressively building one on the other. Perhaps if someone tries it and finds aspects that they don't like or that simply don't work for them, they can reach out into other areas of study. But if it helps them gain a foothold where they are safe and their relationship with their horse is a good one, it's their money and their horse.

I always advocate people starting with a trainer, but you can study yourself into a frenzy with books and internet and you still will never know as much as the person who is out there working with their horse and looking for ways to learn.


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## Yogiwick

Definitely not beating. 90% of the time the whip is landing BEHIND the horse and when it is on the horse you see marks yes, but not welts. I can make the same marks on a dusty horse with a piece of straw. That doesn't mean anything aside from the horse needs his bum curried.

I think the part that says "beating" is the aggressive *body language* which doesn't hurt anything and is exactly the point. And the "weapons" used. If he had been holding a lunge whip instead would you be so bothered? Different version same thing.

There is a sad part-The sad part is this didn't need to happen if the horse hadn't been taught to act like that.

When things get to that point it's not always pretty to fix.

There is plenty of teaching in this video and the tool doesn't matter since he's NOT beating the horse with it. One or two whacks that raise dust and nothing more is not beating.

If you watch the horse after you will see he is clearly not traumatized as any unfairly beaten animal would be.

I don't know or care about "CA" this is just my response to the video.


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## danicelia24

I say if you want to see what this could have escalated to check out the video Once Bitten Twice Shy and pay careful attention to the horse owners mother from where she was attacked by a horse who was allowed to get worse and worse.


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## Joel Reiter

Sugar said:


> I'm trying to get a handle on what defines "natural horsemanship". And what is the opposite of natural horsemanship?? With Clinton I see a trainer, retraining confused horses. I don't really perceive this line that makes it natural? Unnatural??


I have been to two of Clinton Anderson's Walkabout Tour appearances, plus observed him for three days at a horse fair. In addition, I've read three of his books and watched many hours of his TV episodes and his video programs. In all that time I have never heard of him refer to himself or what he does with the label of natural horsemanship.

CA gives credit to the trainers who taught him. He left school at 15 to apprentice full time with the late Gordon McKinlay, then worked for Australian cutting and reining trainer Ian Francis. Anderson refers to his mentors frequently in his materials and has stayed in contact with them and honored them in public presentations. He also gives credit to Kel Jeffery for his colt starting technique.

Clinton Anderson doesn't claim to be the best horse trainer. He tries to be the best people trainer. His method is the result of trial and error refinement of what average horse owners can grasp.

The opposite of natural horsemanship is snubbing a horse to a post, climbing on, and bucking him out. That was the only way I knew of to break a horse when I was a kid. I have Xenophon's book, written around 400 BC, so I know the idea of working with the horse isn't exactly new. But it was new to me when I returned to horse ownership in 1998.

I have learned a great deal from John Lyons, Charles Wilhelm, Stacy Westfall, Ken McNabb, Richard Winters, Mark Rashid, Pat Parelli, Julie Goodnight, Dan Aadland, Shawna Karrasch and a host of others. But it was Clinton Anderson's techniques that took me from a green rider/green horse disaster-waiting-to-happen to riding confidently in traffic or on the trail.

I don't have the expertise to judge whether CA's method is deficient in some aspect of classical equitation. I do know it works to create a safe horse for average people. Isn't that a worthwhile accomplishment?


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## Corporal

I can imagine if you have watched a stupid owner beat their horse you may think that smacking with a whip is abusive, too. I'll bet that you haven't spent much time watching horses in a herd. I watch MY three all of the time. They live in my back yard. I bought my first 6 horses in 1985 and the behaviors were similar.
I see my herd leader bully the other two, although he is not vicious. "Tyke", (TWH/QH, 1970-1998, RIP) put two of my herd through a wooden fence, not in the same day. Two Vet bills later, I learned not to offer hay outside in a tight place, but "Corporal" (1982-2009, RIP) also went over the fence when I got him back after a year hiatus (long story), and DH talked me into just putting him back in the herd. (TOTALLY MY fault, but I do bring it up to him, a LOT.)
I see Cup&Cakes kick out or charge (at the walk), and my other two horses scramble out of the way. I like my current herd's dynamics. Moon Eyes is 3/3 EXCEPT when the two boys need confidence and then they look to her for it. This is a very important training tool, and I would have problems trail riding without it.
I see very few kick or bite marks on any of them though they spend more hours turned out together than stalled. Moon Eyes and Buster Brown respect Cup&Cakes and Cup&Cakes respects me. This is practiced every single day. Cup&Cakes is 1,900 pounds, and the others are 1,100 and 1,200 pounds. His kick can do a great deal more damage than me and my whip, but all three of them respect my whip.
Once your horse has been worked many hundreds of hours by a good trainer and YOU have worked them many hours establishing your leadership, as a benevolent dictator, and your horse both respects you and wants your attention, you can back off being defensive.
Before that, you are very foolish to assume that a big animal, prone to flight and then fight will want to please you.


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## CrazyLegs262

I didn't read many of the comments so what I'm going to say has probably already been said. To me, it is no different than putting a new horse in a pasture with others. The boss horse is going to beat up on the lower horses for a little bit to let them know they aren't the top dog. Clinton is giving him the same wake up call. 

I don't think as many of those cracks landed on him as you think. There was a lot going on behind him to get his feet moving.


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## DomiStLaurent

I've tried to keep quiet on this thread.
I don't follow any trainers to a T, I just take things I find useful and carry on with my day. I have been to Clinton Anderson's seminars and he is the closest to anyone I follow other than my trainer that my horse is boarded at.

I have a huge problem with people thinking DISCIPLINE is abuse. 
Discipline involves a negative reaction timed perfectly to a particular behavior.
I have had to discipline my horse a lot and there is a respect needed to do so, otherwise I would have an even angrier horse. 
When discipline is views as abuse is the exact situation that calls for someone's animal to be wrongfully taken away. 
This is what scares me about the animal world.

Nothing portrayed in that video could/should be considered WRONG. It is regaining dominance while also disciplining the horse. The horse had no problem with Clinton coming up to him after the fact and petting him, if anything Clinton did was viewed as abuse that horse would have tensed up and showed signs of stress, very simple. That horse was never cracked with the whip for no reason or even with the wrong timing.

TIMING IS KEY TO DISCIPLINE.


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## CrazyLegs262

Just last weekend I bought a new horse home. I was told he was low on the pecking order so I let him out with my quieter gelding first. Then, when I let my boss mare out it was very similar to what Clinton did. No sooner did she get her butt out of her stall door her ears were flat and she took off after him. She chased him no differently than Clinton, kicking and biting him when he didn't move. Now that my new boy knows he is submissive to her and our pasture is back to normal. lol 

The funniest part was this horse had been alone for I little while so he had gotten a little cocky, she quickly knocked that out of him. lol


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## STT GUY

Foxhunter said:


> Waymire, you have obviously never been in the same situation.
> 
> CA asked the horse to move and when it didn't he immediately used the whip. He *had* to let the horse know he was not there to be laughed at, chaffed at or made a fool of - let alone be chased.
> 
> The only times he used the whip on the horse was when it pinned its ears or on the one occasion turned it butt to him to turn.
> 
> The horse learned fast that he wasn't going to be able to boss this mad man so did as he was asked the moment it was asked. When the pressure was let off the horse was not afraid, he was happy to stand and be rubbed.
> 
> The woman was not tough or demanding enough or picking up on the subtle threats the horse was showing her. Once she understood that then the horse offered no bad moments.
> 
> The horse was not frightened as her rubbing the whip over him afterwards proved.
> 
> Sometimes you have to be extra tough.


 
^^^^This^^^^

Sooner or later that horse was going to hurt someone and then its life would possibly be over. CA did that horse and an owner a service.


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## ctec377

I agree with most everyone on this thread... an aggressive horse is a dangerous horse and also putting itself at risk of being destroyed. 

You MUST take a firm and dominate stand and get the horse under control. 

My beautiful appaloosa was a spoiled horse when I got him. The previous owners were afraid of him. He would buck and act up and they would immediately get off and take him home. Soon he was a pasture ornament and ruled the show.

When I purchased him, the owners told me that the horse was green and they were afraid of him but they were not very specific. I didn't realize the extent of the trouble until I got him home. He was disrespectful on the ground and bucked me every time I asked for something he didn't want to do. Lord, he can buck. 

I too am an internet trained horse person... well, along with years of informal experience. I did research, tried the 'nice' methods, then finally found some training videos that were a bit more... assertive. They instructed that every time my horse (Cooper) would act up, I needed to make it so unpleasant that he would not like the results. And i did. I did not hurt the horse, but I made it terribly unpleasant to be a jerk. Today he's my baby, and he is a good boy. I haven't been bucked or bitten in forever. I know that the firm, more dominate stance that I took saved him from having to go to someone else. And I wondered if someone from the outside looking in would be calling animal protection services on me. I certainly didn't hurt my horse, but it was loud and ugly every time he bucked. I made it loud, snappy, and unpleasant. and it worked. And I'd do it again. The results are worth it.


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## Prinella

I find he did nothing wrong in this video. I feel for professional trainers who have to constantly excuse and explain themselves to galloping housewives who have a 600kg best friend with no manners. 

I was at a clinic last november with another trainer let's call him God. God asked for a stubborn horse and I handed my brat over. This is a horse who I was given years ago at 15 months still on the mare and let's just say I wasn't ready. there are some mannerisms that need to be broken. 

He had his stick and flag on the ground and as he had her walking around him she decided it was terrifying and she should jump into his space. Not something I'd seen from her but first time out in a new location etc... 

So God chased black brats bum around hard and fast. At one point she jumped around away from him and stepped on her own foot. She was lame for a whole 5 seconds, the look I got from him wasn't fear of the horse it was 'What is this woman going to say now?' I just laughed and said 'all good'. He told her in no uncertain terms that jumping into his space was NOT ON. There were now further issues. She absolutely had the face of "Who is this man and what is he on?" 

She then quietly walked,trotted,cantered and halted over the carrot stick with attached cloth of death.

At this point this horse was not aggressive but it was dangerous. Unfortunately my horse speak isn't good enough to politely explain to her why jumping on a handler is bad. All I can do is show her it's a very bad idea


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## gee50

I didn't read all the posts. Seems everybody agrees nothing was too excessive. I tried to view the video but apparently it has been removed.

What I have said before is that Clinton is his own worst enemy. I think I will email him a suggestion. He needs to post some kinda of disclaimer. He works with the same kind of nasty, mean horses I do. The difference is, I have no time constraints. I usually don't need anything but the soft end of a long line to keep an attacking horse out of my space. I encourage a dangerous horse to feel free to strike and attack but keep my distance. I through inner strength, silence and posture show a horse I'm not a threat. From there I can gentile the horse and get him/her back on track and out of the slaughter house.

Unfortunately Clinton only has minutes to get his point across to an audience (staying safe as well). Hence his prolific use of a lung whip for spanking. I know he hurts no horses but perception is everything. One day he is going to do his job. It will be on a horse owned by some well connected winnie and he will find himself in court.


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## tinyliny

I am one of the few voices here that does not like CA's methods. all the incessant chasing of the horse, and focus on approaching the horse in an adversarial frame of mind feels very shallow to me. it might be what an aggressive horse may need, and certainly so many times an aggressive horse is made worse by a wishy-washy owner's handling , but what I see of how he teaches others to handle their horses puts the owners into looking at their horse as almost an "enemy" that they must meet on the field of battle, and they'd better be proactively aggressive, or they'll end up being walked all over.

most of them are having trouble because they aren't clear in what they are asking or expecting. and they substitue being quietly confusing with being loudly confusing, and since the horse jumps around in a desperate attempt to get away from that, they assume they are being very effective.

this is, of course, the worst part of what one will see from his students trying to emulate CA. Clinton , himself, is better able to fine tune pressure so it's not ON all the time, but his students only hear the part about "get tough! now!". they don't hear, nor are they cued to remember what they are looking for, and that's responsiveness without getting tough.


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## Saddlebag

I see nothing wrong with Clinton's ways of dealing with horses. This is how a man does it, not so much women who are too concerned about hurting "Precious". Because a friend didn't listen she knew she came within an inch of losing her life because she didn't want to hurt her Precious. In one case I handed the lead line back to the owner when she told me "Don't hurt Precious". The horse had no manners whatsoever because of it's owner and if it tried to go over top of me, it was going to find out quick what I could do.


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## tinyliny

Who said anything about "precious ?"

It's not like everyone has to be one extreme or the other. There is plenty if room for good horsemanship between abdicating leadership and applying it like a tyrant.


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## Cindyg

Clinton Anderson Really Knows How to Abuse 2-Year-Olds - Writing of Riding


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## Joel Reiter

tinyliny said:


> Who said anything about "precious ?"


I have seen Clinton live on three occasions, and watched him deal with half a dozen horses and their owners. In every case, the horse was there because of some vice -- refused to load in a trailer, dangerous to handle on the ground, spooky, etc. In every case, just watching the owner bring the horse into the arena was enough to make the problem clear.

Clinton Anderson has spent 23 years training horses and doing clinics. Most of his clients have been women who have spoiled their horses and who find it excruciatingly difficult to be the least bit firm. If your view of CA is based on his TV show, I can understand how you would equate his method with "being loudly confusing." That's because the TV episodes are chosen to address the most common problem, which is mamma doesn't think precious will love her if she ever gives precious a whack. When you see those same people trying to get firm for the very first time, they are understandably clumsy. They will get better. The TV camera won't be there to record it.

He says over and over and over again, what he spends half an hour doing on TV is a grotesquely abbreviated sample of what he teaches. The Fundamentals kit has _28 hours_ of film, showing in excruciating detail how to do every step of his method.

He stresses asking as gently as possible and being as firm as necessary. Over and over again he says "your horse will never be lighter than your first request. If you want him to respond to two ounces of pressure, you have to begin by asking with 2 ounces of pressure."

I think most of Clinton Anderson's critics don't understand what he's trying to do. If you read his "Lessons Well Learned" and disagree with something he says there it would make a good discussion.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Cindyg said:


> Clinton Anderson Really Knows How to Abuse 2-Year-Olds - Writing of Riding


Really, you can find extreme examples of "mistreatment" from every popular clinician/trainer. Just look up Pat Parelli. So, one little article with some video that is mashed together and doesn't show the entire process isn't a great thing to base your opinion of someone on.


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## COWCHICK77

Joel, I don't disagree with you.
_However,_ the episode in the OP was a little over dramatic for what it was to sell his method. I think we all know that the live shows and episodes on RFDTV are basically commercials. If you think not then you have bought into the snake oil/smoke and mirrors, etc.
Obviously he is doing something right, he's making money and training horses but not at the level he would like to. His life would be a helluva a lot easier training reiners and showing than doing expos and filming commercials at Sally Jo's house smacking her ill mannered horse back into shape.
Not saying the guy is completely illiterate as I sit on my couch typing but he isn't the best thing going out there.


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## tinyliny

Joel, I'll agree that CA makes most of his reputation helping owners of dificult horses deal with there problems. the thing is people end up thinking that's all there is to it; push harder, get firmer, swing the rope faster, make him turn around faster . I guess that might be an improvement to what they had, but it's completely lacking in the sort of connection and feel that is the focus of working with a horse in , say, the way that Bill and Tom Dorrance might advocate. 

I can't really describe it to you, but the CA training I've seen makes me grit my teeth. I don't say that for what I've seen of how Warwick Schiller works with a hrose, or Chris Cox, or others. There's a hardness about him that really puts me off. a sense that he talks a lot, but listens very little. One of the things the best horsemen say is first "you get WITH your horse", then " you get the horse with you.". I just don't see that. perhaps I am missing other videos that are not of working with problem horses type.
all I can see is so much arrogance that it's hard to see much else.


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## STT GUY

tinyliny said:


> I am one of the few voices here that does not like CA's methods. all the incessant chasing of the horse, and focus on approaching the horse in an adversarial frame of mind feels very shallow to me. it might be what an aggressive horse may need, and certainly so many times an aggressive horse is made worse by a wishy-washy owner's handling , but what I see of how he teaches others to handle their horses puts the owners into looking at their horse as almost an "enemy" that they must meet on the field of battle, and they'd better be proactively aggressive, or they'll end up being walked all over.
> 
> *most of them are having trouble because they aren't clear in what they are asking or expecting*. and they substitue being quietly confusing with being loudly confusing, and since the horse jumps around in a desperate attempt to get away from that, they assume they are being very effective.
> 
> this is, of course, the worst part of what one will see from his students trying to emulate CA. Clinton , himself, is better able to fine tune pressure so it's not ON all the time, but his students only hear the part about "get tough! now!". they don't hear, nor are they cued to remember what they are looking for, and that's responsiveness without getting tough.


Pretty much true of ANY training method. Clinton's method is the most clear and concise I have seen in setting expectations based on "Action = desired result". Lets face it, its really all about training HUMANS to train horses. BTW, I like Chris Cox.


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## Allison Finch

Cindyg said:


> Clinton Anderson Really Knows How to Abuse 2-Year-Olds - Writing of Riding


Here's the problem I have with this inflammatory post. You can take photos of horrible micrmoments of ANY trainer out there. These are different horses doing who knows what? I don't like these momments, at all....HOWEVER, I am sure if a horse was giving me the whatfore, I could have micromoments that could look bad, too.

He may be this way often....or not. I don't know him well enough to say.


Such stalking posts really get under my skin, to tell you the truth.


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## Joel Reiter

In response to tinyliny and COWCHICK77, I'm not saying I would want Clinton Anderson as my son-in-law, and he wouldn't be my first choice to send my own horse for training. I think he is extraordinarily good at training horse owners.

I think it is probably a useless exercise to judge Clinton by how badly some of his followers imitate his methods. If that is the standard, the Dorrance brothers were incompetent. Most gifted trainers don't communicate with people as well as they communicate with horses.


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## Janet Cherry

To add my two-cents worth - I have to agree with gee50 and Tinyliny. gee50 makes a valid point about time constraints. But surely it goes further than the time/media hype/showmanship issue - to the building of trust. Building a good relationship, especially a partnership, takes time. And patience. And humility. The whole arrogant, aggressive, macho human dominance attitude leaves me cold.


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## Corporal

STT GUY said:


> Lets face it, its really all about training HUMANS to train horses. BTW, I like Chris Cox.


Agreed.
Me, too...AND Julie Goodnight...AND Dennis Reis...AND Ken McNabb...AND others...
It took me a LONG time to appreciate CA. The only thing I have seen that I didn't agree with was that he should have retired his older mare (before Diaz) for his demonstrations.
For those of you who focus on what you see as harsh, talk to us again after a horse with baggage that you didn't know about, acts up or expodes and YOU get hurt.


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## SorrelHorse

Mindy was retired at 17, happy and sound? There is a video of her last performance in Vegas that was absolutely beautiful. 

People on that two-year-old performance horse article saying he is "abusive" has clearly never worked in a performance horse industry. Yeah, sometimes you have to grab a hold of a colt and ask them for a little more. Sometimes you have to kick them out of the turn and get them to move. Don't like it? Don't get into the performance horse industry. When I was working for Skip Brown, I talked to greats like Les Vogt, Todd Bergen, Ted Robinson, and others. It's all the same. Warwick Schiller has a lot of the same, but he does not always choose to put it on youtube. The colts I have ridden are the same. You teach them softness, you teach them to give to you, but even still sometimes when you run down to stop and back up they may flip their head up or show some defiance, and you need to hold onto them until they soften. That doesn't mean you grab them with all your might every time you stop, but you give them the chance and if they don't - To hell with it, make that barrier with your hands and bring them back to you.

I don't have sympathy for a horse who gapes his mouth or flings his head when he deliberately refuses to do something and gets snatched. Sure, when you're teaching them you ride them softer, but the horses shown in that video are broke horses who KNOW what they are supposed to do already. After five months of riding, you bet they better have an idea. I didn't see a single one of those horses get worse after Clinton rode them either - I saw them get better. One detail most of the fuzzy-wuzzy horse people out there are going to forget.

You don't have to agree with them. You don't need the "do what you need to win" attitude. For the most part, the horses are taught to WANT to do things like stop, spin, change leads, etc - But you still need to command respect as a herd leader, just like you would a kid. As a kid, I WANTED to go out and do my barn chores, but I sometimes whined or would be slow about it because it was raining or I was tired. You know what my parents did? They kicked my butt out the door and said "too bad, it's your job." It's the same with horses. This is their JOB. They grow up doing it. If they grow up and decide they don't like it, send them somewhere else. Just like kid grow up and take different paths from their roots. That's fine. Doesn't mean you get to slack while you're in the middle of it though. 

Just my take. Carry on.


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## tinyliny

Joel Reiter said:


> In response to tinyliny and COWCHICK77, I'm not saying I would want Clinton Anderson as my son-in-law, and he wouldn't be my first choice to send my own horse for training. I think he is extraordinarily good at training horse owners.
> 
> I think it is probably a useless exercise to judge Clinton by how badly some of his followers imitate his methods. If that is the standard, the Dorrance brothers were incompetent. Most gifted trainers don't communicate with people as well as they communicate with horses.



take for example the Road to the Horse. 
one year it was Pat Parelli, CA and Chris Cox. watching CA work his colt was really gut wrenching. that horse was sucking for air so hard it was scared for it's own life. a prey animal who cannot get air enough to flee experiences the same terror as one who is confined by a rope or trap. he worked, and worked, and worked that horse . in the end, over the same amount of time given PP and CC, he got some pretty impressive results (if you had not seen how he got there). 

at the same time, without noise or bravado, Chris Cox worked his colt with finess and feel, and got results , perhaps less showy to an audience, but the colt just felt better.

and PP, even though he was bucked off, his colt was not stripped of all dignity and made into an automaton. they all had the same amount of time to train an unhandled colt to the saddle.


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## COWCHICK77

Joel Reiter said:


> In response to tinyliny and COWCHICK77, I'm not saying I would want Clinton Anderson as my son-in-law, and he wouldn't be my first choice to send my own horse for training. I think he is extraordinarily good at training horse owners.
> 
> I think it is probably a useless exercise to judge Clinton by how badly some of his followers imitate his methods. If that is the standard, the Dorrance brothers were incompetent. Most gifted trainers don't communicate with people as well as they communicate with horses.


 I see what you are saying. And to me here is the difference; the Dorrances were not out selling a package training system. They wanted you to think for yourself and actually figure that horse out. They didn't give you the answers or tell you how to do it. That is why a lot of people can't grasp what they were saying.
On the other hand you have the likes of Clinton, he is selling and giving the answers. Trying to give an instruction guide on how to interact with a horse. Takes the thinking right out of it. He is great at training people.


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## Cindyg

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Really, you can find extreme examples of "mistreatment" from every popular clinician/trainer. Just look up Pat Parelli. So, one little article with some video that is mashed together and doesn't show the entire process isn't a great thing to base your opinion of someone on.


Very poor defense. 

"I may treat my animals horribly, but so does he."


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## Cindyg

Allison Finch said:


> Here's the problem I have with this inflammatory post. You can take photos of horrible micrmoments of ANY trainer out there. These are different horses doing who knows what? I don't like these momments, at all....HOWEVER, I am sure if a horse was giving me the whatfore, I could have micromoments that could look bad, too.
> 
> He may be this way often....or not. I don't know him well enough to say.
> 
> 
> Such stalking posts really get under my skin, to tell you the truth.


No, certainly not ANY trainer. Plenty of trainers you can stalk with a camera all day long and not get one single picture of them having yanked a horse's head back to his chest with his mouth gaping open.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

tinyliny said:


> take for example the Road to the Horse.
> one year it was Pat Parelli, CA and Chris Cox. ...........
> at the same time, without noise or bravado, Chris Cox worked his colt with finess and feel, and got results , perhaps less showy to an audience, but the colt just felt better.


And if I were going to pay money to go to a weekend seminar with 1 of the 3 you mentioned, it would be Chris Cox. He is classically trained and it shows in his riding and how he handles his horses. Soft and quiet. Not saying he won't administer a spanking or have a CTJ if needed, but not his first approach to a situation.


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## my horse

I Didn't see anything wrong with the way he was training. I understand what you mean but he really only gave the horse a whip when the horse needed it. If you noticed, at first the horse was aggressive and when he was done, the horse had all it's intention on him. The only thing that I would add is, It would have been better if he rubbed the whip on the horse and made it so the horse understands the whip is only a tool and not an enemy.


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## Allison Finch

Cindyg said:


> No, certainly not ANY trainer. Plenty of trainers you can stalk with a camera all day long and not get one single picture of them having yanked a horse's head back to his chest with his mouth gaping open.


Some may not like this moment of Julie's and make comments about it. She even put it as a cover.










Stacy Westfall having a tense moment










I have no problem with these because it just shows a training moment.

So, what trainers, who are internationally known, do you say could NEVER have a bad moment?


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## Allison Finch

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> And if I were going to pay money to go to a weekend seminar with 1 of the 3 you mentioned, it would be Chris Cox. He is classically trained and it shows in his riding and how he handles his horses. Soft and quiet. Not saying he won't administer a spanking or have a CTJ if needed, but not his first approach to a situation.


I like Chris Cox, too. BUT, even HE has moments that can be used to accuse him of....whatever....






























Any person who spends time training horses will have moments when, if anyone happens to snap a photo at the perfect time, could be used to make them look bad. Horses will not be 100% compliant for anyone.


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## Foxhunter

I agree with Alison, any trainer has moments when they have to follow through and be tough, taken out of context these can be seen as abusive. 

Surely, much of the problem can be that these trainers are ordinary Jo Bloggs, they suddenly hot fame, have money in their pockets, people to market products and sell their name and fame can bring a change in their character. Happens with many sportsmen, film stars and pop stars.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

My comment above, about paying to go to a seminar with Chris Cox, wasn't meant to imply I thought that CA was abusive in the context of this thread. I totally don't think he was wrong and agree that any horse, any where, at any time with any trainer can need a strong correction or CTJ. I just meant, after having seen all 3, PP, CA and CC work both in clinics and on TV, that if I were going to pay to put a horse and me in a clinic I'd go with CC. I just feel his style most matches how I like to work.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Cindyg said:


> Very poor defense.
> 
> "I may treat my animals horribly, but so does he."


Wow. Way to COMPLETELY twist my words. :clap: That is not what I said at all. What I said was pretty much what everyone else said and showed with pics of clinicians caught in "moments" that may seem overly harsh or avusive, but that can't be taken on their own, as they don't show everything that is happening. 

I'm sure if someone followed you around with a camera, they could catch moments where it looks like you are the worst horse owner in the world. Then they could make a compilation and spread it about the Internet saying "look at this horrible person!" I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate that much, either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waymire01

The horse on the JG cover has his head level with his withers, and his poll is vertical. That is a far cry from the overflexion, sawing at the mouth, and gaping away from pain pointed out previously. CC isn't even using a whip.. let alone a bull whip.


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## Joel Reiter

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> After having seen all 3, PP, CA and CC work both in clinics and on TV, that if I were going to pay to put a horse and me in a clinic I'd go with CC. I just feel his style most matches how I like to work.


As the only four-time winner of Road to the Horse, and the only person that has won every time he entered, Chris Cox is arguably the best horse trainer going. I'm looking forward to a chance to see him in person. But there are those who find the whole RTTH concept objectionable, and therefore would be constrained to condemn CC as a participant.

If your number one priority of qualities in a trainer is being gentle, Stacy Westfall would rank higher for you than CA. But I think it would be hard to top Mark Rashid for gentleness. I'd be surprised if Rashid would ever enter RTTH. Without ever mentioning any trainers by name, Mark sort of describes himself as the anti-Clinton. He doesn't like the term respect. He doesn't believe the goal is to be the alpha horse in your herd.

But based on the few sessions I've had the chance to observe him, and based on two of his books I've read, it seems to me that Rashid is not the anti-Clinton, but more like Clinton light. He does the same thing Clinton does except that he is willing to take an hour to accomplish what Clinton does in five minutes. He can get very firm with a horse, and he can put a lot of pressure on a horse, but he wants to give the horse every possible chance to understand or at least guess what he is asking before he does it.

That's probably not a fair or accurate way to describe Rashid, because I've only watched him for a few hours live. I have another one of his books on order and I bought one of his DVDs but haven't watched it yet. I'm sure I'll have more to say as I understand him better.


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## waymire01

If you want to see compassionate training/starting look no farther than Buck Brannamman. The first volume of The Three Masters (you can rent it at giddyupflix) has him starting a stud colt in about an hour and a half with absolutely no stress (other than some natural fear the first time he moves under saddle and trying to figure out what has him around the middle) and riding him anywhere he chooses.. at all three gaits and in a huge arena.. bridleless, including stop and backup.


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## Roman

Oh...bitless person, yeah? >.>

Buck Brannamman is not picture perfect. I bet you $100 that at one point, a horse bucked, reared, had a fit, pinned his ears, kicked. Because no trainer is perfect.


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## waymire01

I'll take that bet.. I watched it. Other than the initial freak out the first time he moved with the saddle on his back he did one little hump the first time ridden at the canter which Buck just rode out.
The very next day that colt was in a snaffle and working, rode him during the other demonstrations, including working a huge sorrel horse with some serious anxiety/aggression issues (that is on volume 3).
You are welcome to rent it yourself.
I do have a horse I ride in a rope halter, one in a mechanical hackamore, one in a sidepull, one in a french snaffle, and one in a double broken mouth curb with a leather strap. I go with what works best for the individual horse, and aim for the least amount possible.


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## Joel Reiter

waymire01 said:


> If you want to see compassionate training/starting look no farther than Buck Brannamman. The first volume of The Three Masters (you can rent it at giddyupflix) has him starting a stud colt in about an hour and a half with absolutely no stress


So you saw Buck Brannaman start one colt and it went well and that makes him gentle, and you saw Clinton Anderston start one colt and it was ragged, and that makes Buck Brannaman more compassionate than Clinton Anderson? I urge you to take a larger sample before you draw your conclusions.

Ever see The Horse Whisperer with Robert Redford? Buck Brannaman was the model and the adviser on the set for that movie. Do you think it's a compassionate training technique to take a horses legs out from under it? John Rarey was a sensation in England prior to the Civil war using that method, and it was adopted by the United States Cavalry, but Brannaman is the only trainer I know who still uses it.


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## bsms

Joel Reiter said:


> So you saw Buck Brannaman start one colt and it went well and that makes him gentle, and you saw Clinton Anderston start one colt and it was ragged, and that makes Buck Brannaman more compassionate than Clinton Anderson? I urge you to take a larger sample before you draw your conclusions...


I don't train horses, at least not from scratch, so I don't know if this is true. A guy who DID break horses from scratch said that with a bit of preparation, 5 out of 6 horses wouldn't buck. He also said some horses would buck no matter how you prepared them.

I only own 3 horses, and only ride one of the three frequently. She is an oddball horse. Much of the training advice I've read and heard doesn't work with her. We actually seem to like each other fairly well after 6 years together, but there have been a huge number of times that someone could have taken a picture of me & her and accused me of brutality.

She will not be dominated. Try to intimidate her with pain, and she'll fight you to the end. But OTOH, if you back down from her, she'll walk all over you. She needs to know you are not afraid of her and won't be intimidated by her before she'll listen. But you then need to teach her what you want in a way that makes her an active participant. She needs understanding, but she also requires someone who will go toe to hoof with her at times. If she views you as a weakling, she won't listen at all.

The pictures of Chris Cox reminded me of what my mare and I had looked like, at times. And yes, sometimes I've done things totally wrong, and needed to back up and try a different approach. But if nothing else, she has taught me that horses are individuals, and what works for one won't work for all. No trainer is perfect and neither is any rider, in part because no horse is perfectly alike another horse. Being good at reading a horse reduces mistakes, but cannot eliminate them.

And I doubt I'm the only guy who has ever lost it when he should have stayed cool, or backed off when he needed to press harder, etc. Those with a lifetime around horses will make those errors less often, but no one reads a horse with 100% perfection. All trainers, as you said, are imperfect. So are the horses they train and the riders who ride them!


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## Joel Reiter

bsms said:


> And I doubt I'm the only guy who has ever lost it when he should have stayed cool, or backed off when he needed to press harder, etc.


I read some place that if we get to heaven we get all our horses back. I hope mine won't be mad at me. I've done so many things wrong.


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## waymire01

Joel Reiter said:


> So you saw Buck Brannaman start one colt and it went well and that makes him gentle, and you saw Clinton Anderston start one colt and it was ragged, and that makes Buck Brannaman more compassionate than Clinton Anderson? I urge you to take a larger sample before you draw your conclusions.
> 
> Ever see The Horse Whisperer with Robert Redford? Buck Brannaman was the model and the adviser on the set for that movie. Do you think it's a compassionate training technique to take a horses legs out from under it? John Rarey was a sensation in England prior to the Civil war using that method, and it was adopted by the United States Cavalry, but Brannaman is the only trainer I know who still uses it.



John Rarey developed his method to help horses that had been ruined by the horrific training practices of the time, or were extremely aggressive. He was one of the first to encourage non violent methods. We are not talking about a "running W" here.. have you ever seen it done? Is quietly laying them down more compassionate than whipping them or running them until they can barely stand.. certainly. Which would you rather have done to you?

The movie was actually based on a novel. Inspiration was from many sources including Ramey. The story was fiction and the horse being laid down was in the book. Buck Brannaman was asked to advise and did some of the training and stunt work. He used his personal horse for some of the scenes. I have seen him take a leg for control with a horse that is so aggressive it is dangerous to approach. You know what they do then? Pet it.. all over. I've seen him keep a leg on a horse that has a bad bucking issue.. something chronic that has become a habit.. during the first ride to keep control and keep things calm, stopping the horse only if he has to. He will also take a leg on a gentle horse to teach them to give to pressure and not to panic if something gets around their leg. I've never seen him throw one, but I have seen many others do so, just about every major trainer, and most You Tube yahoos, out there have a video of laying a horse down. A quick google search will give you dozens.
"When you lay a horse down, it’s with extreme cases. You don’t throw the horse down, you put him down. And when he is down, he feels vulnerable, only to find out that you’re not going to overcome him but rather make him comfortable...Once we got through with the movie, every clown in the world was laying a horse down. It became a parlor trick, and that’s not the purpose of it — that was never the intention. To me, it’s exploitive of the horse." Buck Brannaman Cowboys & Indians Magazine / July 2011

Yep.. I've seen one colt started by each and formed my entire opinion based on that. You can argue with someone else, thanks.

http://www.cowboysindians.com/Cowboys-Indians/July-2011/


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## Allison Finch

waymire01 said:


> John Rarey developed his method to help horses that had been ruined by the horrific training practices of the time, or were extremely aggressive. He was one of the first to encourage non violent methods. We are not talking about a "running W" here.. have you ever seen it done? Is quietly laying them down more compassionate than whipping them or running them until they can barely stand.. certainly. Which would you rather have done to you?


Really? This is an illustration of Rarey's technique, that he used on all of his horses, that were pretty easy to find. I don't see huggy feelie here.












> Rarey began by tying one of the traumatized horse's legs with a strap so that the horse could not stand on it. This gave him control over the horse and quickly tired the animal out.


I like the Rarey technique as it worked so well for him. BUT, he was an extrodinary person who had a gift that few have. He was unable to teach others this gift effectively. He had a rehabbed hore, Cruiser, who only he could ever handle. After Rarey's death, the horse became totally unmanageable even by his devoted disciples.


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## waymire01

Allison Finch;7308682)
I like the Rarey technique as it worked so well for him. BUT said:


> Considering the US Calvary adopted his methods, I would say they transfer over pretty well.
> 
> "_He was a stallion by the name of Cruiser, once the fastest racehorse in the land. Now though, according to the account Annie read, he was a "fiend incarnate" and wore an eight-pound iron muzzle to stop him killing too many stableboys. His owners only kept him alive because they wanted to breed from him and to make him safe enough to do this, they planned to blind him. "
> _I can only imagine what that poor horse suffered. Bonding with one trusted human is not unheard of with severely abused horses, no different than a severely abused child. I have one that I can do anything with, but few others can. He's one of the nicest riding horses I've ever had the pleasure of putting my saddle on, and is not mean or disrespectful in the slightest, but he's extremely sensitive and fearful. He was abused by a man and won't let men anywhere near him, except for my husband and son who have known him for almost ten years... I had a guy that worked for me as a stable hand for a while that he allowed to catch and put him in and out of his stall.. but only after I trained him to do so over a period of a week. Most women can approach/handle him if they do so quietly. I'm the only person who can trim his feet, unless you knock him completely out with drugs. If I die before he does, hopefully not since he's 24, they will probably have to put him down, unless they can find a lady who will take him and knows enough about a horse to provide all of his care.


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## Allison Finch

When I first started working with the stallion in my avatar, he was seven and had not been put under saddle. He was incredibly rank!

The owners took him to a Buck clinic. He put this stallion in a round pen with a gelding owned by Tom Brokaw. Anyone see a big problem with that? Well, Ab hauled off and kicked the crap out of Brokaw's horse. Ab was removed from the clinic.

Six months later, as I watched him trot up and down the fenceline of his paddock, I decided I wanted to work with him. In two weeks he was a whole different horse. He was not so much rank as ignorant of how to get the attention he so badly wanted in a good way.

Did I ever have to get tough with him? You bet!! But, the minute he did things well he was praised praised praised....which is what he wanted all along. In two weeks he knew how to get that praise.

So, Buck is not infallible...NO trainer is. We all have our good and bad moments. The deal is to learn from both.

My best friend, 'Lil Ab...son of Abdullah


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## Allison Finch

Waymire, from Rarey's biography....



> Cruiser died on July 6, 1875, outliving his new master by a full nine years. Rarey left instructions for the care of Cruiser in his will. Upon Rarey's death, Cruiser's temper returned.


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## waymire01

Allison Finch said:


> Waymire, from Rarey's biography....


You can tell someone the best way to handle them, what sets them off, what calms them down.. but you can't replace the trust that was built between those two individual beings. It's like trying to replace someone's spouse or father. I still have my son's trail horse... he rode him almost every day from the time he was 8 until about 15 when he suddenly lost interest. It's been five years since, and Domino and I get along fine, he's a great well mannered gelding and very easy going.. but I'm not my son. I trained him originally, and have ridden him on and off throughout, but he belonged to my son. Our relationship has never been as close.

Yes, I agree with that quote. Being a good parent doesn't mean bringing out the bull whip. That gets you put in prison.


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## Corporal

Allison Finch said:


> When I first started working with the stallion in my avatar, he was seven and had not been put under saddle. He was incredibly rank!
> 
> The owners took him to a Buck clinic. He put this stallion in a round pen with a gelding owned by Tom Brokaw. Anyone see a big problem with that? Well, Ab hauled off and kicked the crap out of Brokaw's horse. Ab was removed from the clinic.
> 
> Six months later, as I watched him trot up and down the fenceline of his paddock, I decided I wanted to work with him. In two weeks he was a whole different horse. He was not so much rank as ignorant of how to get the attention he so badly wanted in a good way.
> 
> Did I ever have to get tough with him? You bet!! But, the minute he did things well he was praised praised praised....which is what he wanted all along. In two weeks he knew how to get that praise.
> 
> So, Buck is not infallible...NO trainer is. We all have our good and bad moments. The deal is to learn from both.
> 
> My best friend, 'Lil Ab...son of Abdullah


OhMy GOSH--YOU own a son of Abdullah?!?!?!?!?

Adopt me.


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## bsms

waymire01 said:


> ...Being a good parent doesn't mean bringing out the bull whip. That gets you put in prison.


If 5 year old kids came with 1200 lbs of muscle, using a bull whip on them would not be illegal.

Nor has anyone advocated using a bullwhip on horses. At least, not to actually hit them with on a regular basis. But even with my 3 horses, a lunge whip was a useful tool in their initial training.

A person who trains a horse that only they can ride or work has not finished training the horse. Horses should be trained so a competent person can handle or ride them. A highly trained horse would need an equally skillful rider, but it should not need one specific person who alone can ride him. 

There are differences in horses. When the lady we hired to train Lilly and later Mia first started, she quickly admitted that those two Arabians responded differently than most of the quarter horses she had worked with in her life. She later found work training Arabians weekly, and now owns one. The basic principles remain the same, and there is overlap, but the average Arabian (she says) needs to be handled somewhat differently than the average QH.

Meanwhile, Mia will not respond at all well to 'Pressure, Pressure, more Pressure'. Her response to "More Pressure" is "Fight harder". Since she was underweight and covered with bite marks from continually fighting 2 larger geldings at her previous owner's place (which was why she was back on the market), I assume my 57 year old human body will be less successful at intimidating her into submission than their 1200 lb horse bodies. She needs to understand the situation, or at least accept that* I *understand it.

But she also will not listen to anyone who is intimidated by her. So she needs to know you are dominant before she'll even give you a hearing. I'm sure both Parelli and Anderson and others understand that type - the ones you must convince you are strong enough to kick their butts before they will accept any lesson from you. But then the trainer needs to read the horse well enough to know when to back off, or how to build confidence in a horse who is fearful or nervous.

My problem with Parelli & CA is that they sell a METHOD to people like me: people who are NOT good at reading a horse. I think the ability to read a horse and release pressure immediately is much more important than the "method" of training. Unhappily, you cannot learn that by watching a DVD or owning 1-3 horses in your backyard...:evil:


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## STT GUY

waymire01 said:


> If you want to see compassionate training/starting look no farther than Buck Brannamman. The first volume of The Three Masters (you can rent it at giddyupflix) has him starting a stud colt in about an hour and a half with absolutely no stress (other than some natural fear the first time he moves under saddle and trying to figure out what has him around the middle) and riding him anywhere he chooses.. at all three gaits and in a huge arena.. bridleless, including stop and backup.


This is great...IF one has the skill set, several thousand hours of full-time horse training and some natural talent to boot. 99.99% of us do not.

Example, I can purchase a "how to" video for Formula One race car driving, so I should be able to go out, hop in a car and do a lap within a second of two of the track record after watching it, right? Of course not, its ridiculous to think that.

We watch many of these trainers do amazing things which they can do because they are amazing trainers (regardless of "style"). Do each of them have a bad day now and then...heck yes. Is every trainers style a perfect match for every horse...nope. 

Arguing over who's the best trainer is like "my dad can beat up your dad". 

As I have mentioned here prior, I like CAs material because of it's excellent presentation. Frankly his stuff has the best and most professional production work of any I have seen. I am able to follow it and understand it and it's emphasizes safety. The more I am exposed to Chris Cox, the more I ,like his stuff as well. My horse can get "spun up" and at a certain point pressure exacerbates the situation...I have learned to recognize this and know when to back off and call it good. I guess some common sense is needed with anything.


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## Corporal

A great many people buy a horse in haste and repent in leisure. I had the luxury of selling off horses that didn't work well in my lesson program and they DID work. The average horse owner buys a horse with problems that they cannot fix by themselves and then the owner gets attached to the horse with problems.
I have know a lot of people do this and then the horse sits and burns hay and gets worse. They have bragging rights--"I own a horse." I have riding rights--I ride mine.
CA, IMHO, needs more programs that show how he gentles colts and the results of his own personal training. I have seen some of it, and he is not rough with the horses that he starts. He also admits that this is his strong suit, starting horses correctly from scratch. We all know that this is an expensive venture and there is a smaller market for it, than the "horse fixit shop" that he hawks to.
I think that this discussion would be quite different if he was selling products like that guy, "Vince", selling "Invincible" to clean up your house.


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## gee50

bsms said:


> ...
> 
> My problem with Parelli & CA is that they sell a METHOD to people like me: people who are NOT good at reading a horse. I think the ability to read a horse and release pressure immediately is much more important than the "method" of training. Unhappily, you cannot learn that by watching a DVD or owning 1-3 horses in your backyard...:evil:


The first thing Monty Roberts teaches is "*Instant Positive Consequences and Instant Negative Consequences*". Then relates this to "Pressure and Release".

Bummer for PP and CA, Monty has given away their bread and butter to the rest of us. Now everyone can go forth and work the DVD's they paid-out the wazoo for. :shock:


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## waymire01

bsms said:


> If 5 year old kids came with 1200 lbs of muscle, using a bull whip on them would not be illegal.
> 
> Nor has anyone advocated using a bullwhip on horses. At least, not to actually hit them with on a regular basis. But even with my 3 horses, a lunge whip was a useful tool in their initial training.
> 
> A person who trains a horse that only they can ride or work has not finished training the horse. Horses should be trained so a competent person can handle or ride them. A highly trained horse would need an equally skillful rider, but it should not need one specific person who alone can ride him.


My husband is over twice my body weight .. it's still illegal to use a bull whip on him (unless it's consensual, and then it's still frowned upon). 

Um.. actually yeah tons of people here have advocated the use of a bull whip on a horse. Which is why we are even having this conversation. It was the topic of the thread.

I totally agree. Unfortunately not all horses are trained that way, and when you are discussing severely abused animals you have to deal with what is left after others are done. It's not ideal for sure, but it is not a failure on the part of the trainer at the end.. rather that of the trainer at the beginning. That is the hardest lesson to learn in rescue.. sometimes you just can't fix it all, no matter how hard you try.


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## STT GUY

Corporal said:


> A great many people buy a horse in haste and repent in leisure. I had the luxury of selling off horses that didn't work well in my lesson program and they DID work. The average horse owner buys a horse with problems that they cannot fix by themselves and then the owner gets attached to the horse with problems.
> I have know a lot of people do this and then the horse sits and burns hay and gets worse. They have bragging rights--"I own a horse." I have riding rights--I ride mine.


 The first sentence is classic. Horses are a ton of work. It's rewarding and it's frustrating all at once.


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## angelswave88

I don't think it's fair to compare the horse you worked with with this one. You don't know this horse nor have you worked with it. You can tell nothing for certain about a horse over the internet. What works for one horse does not mean it works for all horses.

I think his response was appropriate quite honestly. I am a strong believer in asking once and getting the response right then. I am more for this than passively swinging a lunge whip at the horse over and over and getting no response. To me, that is more abusive that some smacks on the butt. 

I am a fan of CA's ground work. I think it's effective and necessary. I'm not too big on what he does with his horses when he is on them. They end up looking rather defensive to me. But hey, each to their own.

So I'm going to politely disagree with you here 

Also, beating the horse "mercilessly" would mean Clinton never gave a release when it was warranted, which is not true. When the horse went off the point, he was not hit with the whip.


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## danicelia24

I have known quite a few people, including my own sister, who bought a horse just to have a horse. These owners I have found spoil their horses more than people who bought them with a distinct purpose in mind. They allow some bad habits to start and then get frustrated or mad when the horse acts up. I had a mentor that once told me horses are 90% work and 10% fun which to this day I have not found is wrong. I work my butt off with my horses more than I have fun. I do not condone abuse in any sense of the word but the line between abuse and discipline is sometimes very blurred to people. CA, IMHO, did not cross the line into abuse. The horse afterwards was not fighting for breath or acting fearful he wasn't scared when CA walked up to him nothing to show that he didn't understand what had happened. I have a mare who is very loving and sweet but when she doesn't want to do something she knows she is bigger and stronger and she uses that to her advantage. I have had to get after her and work her to the point she was almost dripping sweat but afterwards she's not afraid of me she understands. She knows she was in the wrong and when SHE corrects her own behavior I back off and let her be or work on something else.


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## Joel Reiter

gee50 said:


> Now everyone can go forth and work the DVD's they paid-out the wazoo for.


I paid a trainer $600 to start my horse after I couldn't get past his hysterical reaction to anything being above his head. The guy worked a miracle and my big gelding came back standing calm and still for anyone to mount.

However, he was still a basket case on the trail, freaking out at invisible monsters everywhere we went. If I had spent another $600 for the 28 hours of video instruction in Clinton Anderson's Fundamentals kit, it would have saved me 14 years of research, trial and error, and wrecks. In retrospect I would gladly pay it.

My horse will always be spooky, but now he follows my lead on what to worry about. If he really gets startled and jumps, I know it will be just a half turn, thanks to the one rein stop. I can now ride in town, in traffic, or in the mountains and enjoy it because I'm in control. Most of that I owe to Clinton Anderson.

DVDs are a lot cheaper than emergency room visits. Seems like a good trade to me.


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## lostastirrup

> I had a mentor that once told me horses are 90% work and 10% fun which to this day I have not found is wrong. I work my butt off with my horses more than I have fun.


Personally I think all the work and schooling is fun, (well possibly not all the manure shoveling) But I like that quote. I think we don't realize what we get out of working with horses until later when we look back and see the sort of people that the years of trial and error and of patience and of frustration and confusion has made us into. 

Also another statistics quote:

It is not 90% rider and 10% horse. It is 50% horse and 50% rider, but 90% of the horse is 100% the work of the rider. 
Just thought I'd share that one because I thought it was neat.


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## danicelia24

I also think most everything is fun, ditto on manure shoveling, but it is also work and a lot of it. I have a ton of fun riding but the work it takes to get there and when training it is more work than fun. Not only that but I personally love horses who get a burr under their feathers somedays. I like a dead broke horse but I love a horse who will sense trouble even and respond when I can't.


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## tinyliny

gee50 said:


> The first thing Monty Roberts teaches is "*Instant Positive Consequences and Instant Negative Consequences*". Then relates this to "Pressure and Release".
> 
> Bummer for PP and CA, Monty has given away their bread and butter to the rest of us. Now everyone can go forth and work the DVD's they paid-out the wazoo for. :shock:



you simply CANNOT learn the kind of timing and feel that really good trainers have, from any video. you need to have a good mentor, and you need to work with a LOT of horses, and make lots and lots of mistakes .

so, Joel saying that having had the DVD's of CA would have saved him 14 years of heartache is a bit untrue. I mean, you just don't learn from a video like you learn in real life , making real mistakes. every time you think you've got the 'formula', along comes a different horse , who requires you to cast aside the formula, and consider THIS horse, and what works best for it.


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## STT GUY

angelswave88 said:


> I don't think it's fair to compare the horse you worked with with this one. You don't know this horse nor have you worked with it. You can tell nothing for certain about a horse over the internet. What works for one horse does not mean it works for all horses.
> 
> I think his response was appropriate quite honestly. I am a strong believer in asking once and getting the response right then. I am more for this than passively swinging a lunge whip at the horse over and over and getting no response. To me, that is more abusive that some smacks on the butt.
> 
> I am a fan of CA's ground work. I think it's effective and necessary. I'm not too big on what he does with his horses when he is on them. They end up looking rather defensive to me. But hey, each to their own.
> 
> So I'm going to politely disagree with you here
> 
> Also, beating the horse "mercilessly" would mean Clinton never gave a release when it was warranted, which is not true. When the horse went off the point, he was not hit with the whip.


 I've ridden a CA "Performance Horse"....it was incredible. However, one needs to be a competent horseman to keep a horse of this caliber performing at it's post training level or be willing (and able $$$) to afford tune-ups.


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## Joel Reiter

tinyliny said:


> you simply CANNOT learn the kind of timing and feel that really good trainers have, from any video. you need to have a good mentor, and you need to work with a LOT of horses, and make lots and lots of mistakes.


Well I never had a mentor, let alone a good mentor, and I've only had a dozen horses to work with. I'm sure I don't have the kind of timing and feel that even mediocre trainers have. And I have certainly made lots and lots of mistakes.

My point was not that I am a good trainer. My point is that I learned enough from Clinton Anderson to make my horse safe to ride. I was getting nowhere before he came to the Minnesota Horse Expo in 2005. I went home after watching one session, tried the techniques using a web halter and piece of pvc, and got immediate, breakthrough improvement in our relationship. I'm sure my performance was pathetic, but it worked.


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## tinyliny

I have a mentor, but I see her so infrequently that I make progress at glacial speeds, if that. if I was heart and soul into wanting to get better, I'd tail it on down there and make it so I spend weeks and weeks with her. 

but , I just want a ridable horse, too. so , I get where you're coming from.


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## gee50

Joel Reiter said:


> I paid a trainer $600 to start my horse after I couldn't get past his hysterical reaction to anything being above his head. The guy worked a miracle and my big gelding came back standing calm and still for anyone to mount.
> 
> However, he was still a basket case on the trail, freaking out at invisible monsters everywhere we went. If I had spent another $600 for the 28 hours of video instruction in Clinton Anderson's Fundamentals kit, it would have saved me 14 years of research, trial and error, and wrecks. In retrospect I would gladly pay it.
> 
> …. DVDs are a lot cheaper than emergency room visits. Seems like a good trade to me.


A very good point. What does it cost to have a trainer take your horse for 18 months and turn them into the perfect horse. 10 Grand! I think the going rate is like $1000 a month with a minimum 3 months for most of the big names out there.





Joel Reiter said:


> My horse will always be spooky, but now he follows my lead on what to worry about. If he really gets startled and jumps, I know it will be just a half turn, thanks to the one rein stop. I can now ride in town, in traffic, or in the mountains and enjoy it because I'm in control. Most of that I owe to Clinton Anderson.


Start another thread and may be the forum can help you out on getting your big boy bombproof. Sounds like you have done a great job thus far. :clap:


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## Joel Reiter

gee50 said:


> Start another thread and may be the forum can help you out on getting your big boy bombproof. Sounds like you have done a great job thus far. :clap:


I appreciate that! Actually, he's only blown up twice in the last four years, and the last one was my fault. In the first case, I was on a driveway surrounding a ten acre pasture of nervous heifers that were already spooky. My other horse was in with the cattle. My proximity to the cattle was putting them right on the edge of panic, and then my other horse came running up to greet us. The cattle all took off at once in a thunderclap of dust, the other horse turned and ran for his life, and my big guy jumped out of his skin. I pulled him around with one rein and he stopped. We might have turned a couple of circles before he relaxed, but no pedestrians were created by that event.

The one last year was dumb. There are horses in a pasture that call greetings back and forth when I ride down the road. One day I thought I'd let my guy meet them. I let him climb a steep bank and get nose to nose with the boldest of the horses on the other side. After a minute or two the other horse pawed the ground. Unfortunately for all of us, in the process he caught the bottom electric wire of the fence with his leg, and then he understandably exploded and went running to get away from my electric horse. My guy just assumed the safest course of action was to get out of Dodge, so he made a big jump off the embankment into the ditch. But again, he stopped when I pulled on one rein. Both our hearts were pounding for a few minutes, but otherwise no harm done.

By the way, I was riding in a halter both times. Those nasty skinny rope halters with the knots in the nose seem to be pretty hard to ignore. I can't tell any difference in response whether I'm using a snaffle or the halter, and the halter is sure a lot handier on a trail ride.


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## tinyliny

I love that! "But no pedestrians were created by the event"

May I use that sometime, if the opportunity comes up?


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## Joel Reiter

tinyliny said:


> May I use that sometime, if the opportunity comes up?


Yes, especially if you don't mention the dozen or so times pedestrians WERE created by my wrecks.


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## waymire01

Joel Reiter said:


> I appreciate that! Actually, he's only blown up twice in the last four years, and the last one was my fault....
> 
> By the way, I was riding in a halter both times. Those nasty skinny rope halters with the knots in the nose seem to be pretty hard to ignore. I can't tell any difference in response whether I'm using a snaffle or the halter, and the halter is sure a lot handier on a trail ride.


Watch out.. people will start calling you "one of those bitless people" in that snotty tone. 

In HS I had a TB mare. Dead broke, total teddy bear. You could crawl underneath her if you wanted to. The people I bought her from turned their grandkids loose on her with nothing but a halter.. they called her "panda" since they couldn't say her name, Yosha. I would ride in an enclosed area (arena/pasture) with only a lead rope around her neck. I had several "events" just like that on her.. one extremely similar with a cow who decided he wanted to play as we went by, and took off bucking and leaping into the air making noises I've never heard come from a cow. Another time we were on the way home from a long ride, both half asleep walking down a hill on the shoulder of the road and some AH blasted past us at about fifty miles an hour on a racing bicycle. Never heard a thing until he was right on top of us. Once we were walking under some low hanging branches and a squirrel jumped on her head, ran down her neck, across my chest, off my shoulder, and leapt into the ditch. She spooked each time.. heck, we both did. That is the sort of thing that happens around horses. After the squirrel thing we were both looking at trees funny for a while, lol. I've never known a horse that wouldn't react to something like that.. and I wouldn't want to, it would be a zombie.


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## Joel Reiter

waymire01 said:


> Watch out.. people will start calling you "one of those bitless people" in that snotty tone.


Well, I think bits and spurs are perfectly humane used by people who know what they're doing. Incompetent riders like me are probably better off without them.



waymire01 said:


> After the squirrel thing we were both looking at trees funny for a while, lol.


That did make me laugh out loud. One day I was going down the road and a car drove by, and just as it got abreast of us a dog in the back seat popped his head out the window and barked furiously. I almost had to change my drawers, but the horse didn't react.

However, on the same stretch we came across a big old CRT television on its side on the shoulder and he wanted to stay 50' away from it. Maybe he was afraid he would get stuck with the disposal fee.


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## bsms

Joel Reiter said:


> ...By the way, I was riding in a halter both times. Those nasty skinny rope halters with the knots in the nose seem to be pretty hard to ignore. I can't tell any difference in response whether I'm using a snaffle or the halter, and the halter is sure a lot handier on a trail ride.


FWIW, my mare can tell a HUGE difference between a rope halter and a snaffle, and a snaffle and a curb. The rope halter might as well not have been on her. A snaffle was something to fight. The curb meant obey.

Once she learned to obey in a curb, she became about 95% good in a snaffle. But a rope halter? It would just about make her pee with laughter...


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## ahorseapiece

I think he used an appropriate method of gaining the horses attention, and only on his rear. I've seen many of his methods, and none of them have been cruel. He is a master horseman and works with the horses mind.


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## Allison Finch

waymire01 said:


> Watch out.. people will start calling you "one of those bitless people" in that snotty tone.
> 
> .


Well, that's certainly tar and feathering people with a broad brush.

There are a LOT of reasons why almost anyone might ride a horse in a bitless bridle. I have riddent horses in hackamores and side pulls on several occasions for various reasons. One horse had it's tongue almost cut off and it healed with a DEEP cut all the way across the tongue, similar to this photo










Needless to say, no bit was going into that poor horse's mouth.

So, the only "snotty" remark I have seen was the one I reacted to.


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## KigerQueen

This is how mares teach their foals. when the foal gets out of hand, mom will give a good hard wack. the lesson wont need to be repeated more then a cuple of times. it hurts, and the foals will remember than. please tell me how a whip that is hardly landing on the horse is meaner than this.
https://youtu.be/oJGvvry0yXk


This is how horses interact with each other. a whip is not going to hit as hard as a kick from another horse. they could kick each other hard enough to shatter bones. one kick could end another horse. a crack from the whip will not shatter bones and/or kill a horse. i think a cuple of welts on the bum are better then a trip to the hospital any day.
https://youtu.be/tqvSKoh-zQw


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## KigerQueen

here is another aggressive horse clinton works with. this mare nearly nailed him in the head before he started with her.
https://youtu.be/u6c8VW95SOg


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

KigerQueen said:


> here is another aggressive horse clinton works with. this mare nearly nailed him in the head before he started with her.
> https://youtu.be/u6c8VW95SOg


I wish I could show that video to every single person who's ever told me, "Oh no, I couldn't hit my horse.". That's an excellent demonstration of just how far in over your head you can get by not understanding what the horse is saying to you, until it's almost too late. I'm a drill sergeant with my horses, and I expect them to jump when I say, "Hop" because I never want to be that person who gets their face kicked in by a disrespectful youngster.


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## gee50

In my never to be humble opinion, if Clinton were a master horseman he would not have to spank horses. Clinton is just any other cowboy that puts on a good show. He is a great entrepreneur that's for sure and for certain.

I'm just a regular guy. I don't need to spank horses. Eyes on eyes and an open hand will 80% of the time, send a nasty misbehaving horse away. The other 20% of the time, plastic bags and maybe a couple of dvd's on the end of a stick makes the habituated horse run for the hills. Yes, I have their attention in a non violent and more effective manner than Clinton ever does.

But you have to love the guy... Mate


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## gee50

KigerQueen said:


> here is another aggressive horse clinton works with. this mare nearly nailed him in the head before he started with her.
> https://youtu.be/u6c8VW95SOg


Absolutely appalling. I wanted to vomit. I could have had that mare doing fine in just a few minutes. No chasing, no whips, no yanking its head off: _The blind leading the blind._

Ya it's make for great T.V. and will make lots of money for Clinton. But totally unnecessary. I guarantee the horse will regress and Clinton will quietly take the horse back for remedial work.


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## anndankev

gee50 said:


> ... and maybe a couple of dvd's on the end of a stick ...


.
.
.

Lol


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## Allison Finch

gee50 said:


> In my never to be humble opinion, if Clinton were a master horseman he would not have to spank horses. Clinton is just any other cowboy that puts on a good show. He is a great entrepreneur that's for sure and for certain.
> 
> I'm just a regular guy. I don't need to spank horses. Eyes on eyes and an open hand will 80% of the time, send a nasty misbehaving horse away. The other 20% of the time, plastic bags and maybe a couple of dvd's on the end of a stick makes the habituated horse run for the hills. Yes, I have their attention in a non violent and more effective manner than Clinton ever does.
> 
> But you have to love the guy... Mate


 While I will agree with you 90% of the time, you are likely not the chap people are bringing horses who have been dangerously spoiled like the horse in the OP. These horses have already declined to a point beyond the "regular" misbehavior. Now, a stronger hand needed to be shown.

Horses are like children. A "time out" may not always be quite enough to get a point driven home. I deal with HORRIBLE children who have never been given any indication of when their behavior is over the line. Their disrespect and aggressiveness might have reached a dangerous level. I see this far too often. Sometimes, a stronger response when they go over the line might have been needed long before their actions got to such a level.. And no, I am not talking about BEATING the child. A smack, maybe......


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## gee50

Allison Finch said:


> While I will agree with you 90% of the time, you are likely not the chap people are bringing horses who have been dangerously spoiled like the horse in the OP.


No, I'm not because I'm not well known. I'm old school and just learning how to use the internet and social media for sale purposes. But dangerous horses and those scheduled to be put down are my primary business.



Allison Finch said:


> These horses have already declined to a point beyond the "regular" misbehavior. Now, a stronger hand needed to be shown.


Most folks don't want to pay me to baby sit there spoiled “child”. But I bet I'm a whole lot cheaper than Clinton or his Certified Clinicians.



Allison Finch said:


> Horses are like children. A "time out" may not always be quite enough to get a point driven home. I deal with HORRIBLE children who have never been given any indication of when their behavior is over the line. Their disrespect and aggressiveness might have reached a dangerous level. I see this far too often. Sometimes, a stronger response when they go over the line might have been needed long before their actions got to such a level.. And no, I am not talking about BEATING the child. A smack, maybe......


I understand your point. My point is that I never have to smack these horses. I bring them down off their adrenalin high in about 2 minutes by "_Sending them away_". I set the horse up for success not a duel of testosterone and who has the bigger stick. :wink:

Then I make it safe for the horse to approach me. Within 10 minutes, I get them hooked on. Within another 20 minutes I have the horse following me around like puppy dog. Next comes the rehab which can take up to a month; 25 - 1 hour sessions. After that it's time for ground work and a whole new outlook on owning a horse. :clap:


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## waymire01

KigerQueen said:


> here is another aggressive horse clinton works with. this mare nearly nailed him in the head before he started with her.
> https://youtu.be/u6c8VW95SOg


She was more aggressive, WAY more aggressive.. yet a bullwhip was not necessary. All it took was a relatively competent person moving her feet. That kick in the round pen wasn't that big of a deal, I've had rambunctious babies do the same thing. I really expected her to whip around and try to mow him down since that worked so well with the idiot who owns her.


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## waymire01

Allison Finch said:


> Well, that's certainly tar and feathering people with a broad brush.
> 
> ...
> 
> So, the only "snotty" remark I have seen was the one I reacted to.


It was a joking remark since I was previously accused of the same further up the thread.. not going to bother to search it out but you are welcome to if you like. Thus the "wink".


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## waymire01

Allison Finch said:


> While I will agree with you 90% of the time, you are likely not the chap people are bringing horses who have been dangerously spoiled like the horse in the OP. These horses have already declined to a point beyond the "regular" misbehavior. Now, a stronger hand needed to be shown.
> 
> Horses are like children. A "time out" may not always be quite enough to get a point driven home. I deal with HORRIBLE children who have never been given any indication of when their behavior is over the line. Their disrespect and aggressiveness might have reached a dangerous level. I see this far too often. Sometimes, a stronger response when they go over the line might have been needed long before their actions got to such a level.. And no, I am not talking about BEATING the child. A smack, maybe......


 I totally agree with the comparison to a child FWIW, I've often compared them to about a six year old in comprehension and attention span.

In one breath you compare the horse to a spoiled child who needs a firmer hand.. then state you would never beat a child while approving the same treatment to a horse. Can you not see the contradiction? 

The assumption/accusation that just because someone would not resort to abuse and violence to deal with the situation means they have no experience or are incapable of dealing with such an issue is just insulting. I can't tell you how many people I had tell me the same thing on this thread. Just because you can't think of any other way to deal with the problem doesn't mean there is not one.


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## mypaltrooper

I'm in the middle of watching it, and I see what you are saying. I see and understand why you think he is smacking him too much. Yes, he even admits to hitting him "ten times" on the butt with a painful whip, BUT did you see how the horse was acting with the lady? He may not have acted that bad with Clinton, but that's because he didn't LET him. He did not give him the change to charge, because he knew he would. 

I'm not a "fan" of CA because the first video I saw of him, he had a horse rear and flip over WITH A SADDLE ON. But I highly, highly, highly respect him. I watch many of his (free) videos. I read anything that I can get my hands on of his, that I don't pay for. And, I might even break down and buy some of his stuff because he is a good trainer. He's harsher than most people, but for maybe 10 minutes and then the horse realizes "wow, he isn't kidding." And the reason he is so harsh? Or at least everything you see him doing is harsh? That's because the videos he puts out of him doing step by step training with a horse, are with the craziest ones he works with. He doesn't put out 30 minute videos him working with every single horse/owner he has ever worked with. I bet there are many horses he's helped that didn't need such dramatic correction. 

Specifically this horse was ready to kill. If he didn't get in there and fix it, and take control quickly, the horse would have charged and the lesson would have been lost.

So, yes, I understand what you mean by he is beating the horse. He is beating the horse, yes. But not for no reason, which to me doesn't need to be called a beating. He has a purpose, he isn't just doing it for the fun of it. You were not standing there seeing exactly the horse's ear flicks, tail swishes, and placement of feet. The camera is all over the place and moving fast. You can't possible see a flick of the year or a dominant look in his eye, so there is no way we can be the judge of CA being too harsh.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I think a lot of what we're disagreeing on in this thread is pure semantics. You call it beating, I call it spanking. I agree the horse is like a spoiled 6 year old throwing a tantrum and needs a good spanking. Beating to me is when a parent takes a belt and whips a child over and over and over and leaves welts or bloody stripes down the kid's back and legs. A good, thorough spanking may be harsh but is mainly involving the child's butt and is done with clothes on, so while you might use a belt (whip) then you're hitting outer clothes (thick hair) and not doing physical damage, but may leave a small mark. It will sting plenty and make lots of noise but is also not done out of hatred or anger, it's done with the intent to get the subject's attention and bring home the severity of the infraction. A beating is done with malice and more for the satisfaction of the beater than any intent to educate and with NO regard for the physical well being of the beaten subject. 

And with those definitions in place, that's why I don't think CA is out of line.


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## Joel Reiter

mypaltrooper said:


> And the reason he is so harsh? Or at least everything you see him doing is harsh? That's because the videos he puts out of him doing step by step training with a horse, are with the craziest ones he works with. I bet there are many horses he's helped that didn't need such dramatic correction.


That's a good observation. If you want to see how Clinton handles an unspoiled horse, without the time limit of Road to the the Horse competition, watch his colt starting set. The idea that Clinton Anderson advocates or models routinely beating horses for no reason is baseless nonsense.


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## Chico

I agree with you about the Spanking. So many people consider any touching to a beating. I heard someplace that children were the best terrorist. I kind of agree with that because they use anything to get their way and always push to the limit. This is the same with handling horses or dogs. I have worked both and have 4 kids of my own. They "all" have received spankings. Good Note.


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## mmcleodk

There's also the fact that putting a kid in time out, making them do some menial task as punishment etc is an option. They can comprehend the relationship between punishment and the action they were doing for hours or days afterwards. Horses do not have this capability, any correction has to be immediate and direct.

I didn't see anything in this video that would qualify as a beating, he hit the ground hard to make a noise and spanked the horse with it. The "welts" you saw at the 12:00 minute mark were just lines in the horses fur. There was no hairpin at the end of his swings (big round swings) so its no worse than whacking the horse with a piece of rope essentially. (the whip cracking, which is where it is dangerous and can break bones/skin very easily, is accomplished by creating a hairpin at the end of your throw, which was in no way present in this video).

Also thats an Australian Stock whip not a bullwhip...


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## Foxhunter

mmcleodk said:


> Also thats an Australian Stock whip not a bullwhip...


Stock whip, bull whip, hunting whip the effect is just the same and all should be used correctly!


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