# What makes a great English Pleasure horse?



## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Bump....in case anybody knows anything about English Pleasure...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm thinking you mean to go from this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElR3U_u4ekk
To this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT5Dn-Midjg

It can be done because a lot of the exaggerated knee action comes from specialized shoeing but the head set in pleasure classes is more 'fixed' than ridden into as in dressage
I have ridden an Arabian x saddlebred that was an ex - saddleseat horse and he wasn't what I'd call an easy ride and didn't respond to the rein/bit in the same way a dressage horse does, especially the 'whoa bit'


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

So the high knee action is very desirable in an English pleasure horse? The reason I ask is because when I watch the competition, I pick my top 5 and I'm always curious if the judges agree...a lot of times, they don't so I'm wondering what they are looking for?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I have no clue what they're looking for - considering its called English Pleasure/saddleseat its almost unheard of in the UK. I only know of two places and they seem to travel to Europe or the US to compete
Most of the classes I've seen some of the horses look slightly out of control
I did ride at a barn here one winter where they did a lot of it and are pretty high up the ladder but it was hard to say what was good/bad
The high knee action seems a major part of the deal.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

15 years or so ago when my daughter was in 4-H they had English Pleasure classes and Equitation for the English flatwork classes. For Western it was Western Pleasure and Horsemanship.

English Pleasure was almost the same as Western Pleasure, with the distinction of less peanut rolling, and oil rigging. So a little more level headed and a little more moving out, and of course the grooming, braiding and so forth was different. 

Even in the class booklet at the All American Youth Horse Show, the description for English Pleasure class included something along the lines of 'a western horse in English gear'.

Over the years I noticed no longer was there an English Pleasure class at all, instead there was Hunter Under Saddle.

I have not been to an Arab show; however, have been to Morgan shows. They are a completely different ball of wax. The videos posted were of Saddleseat classes, also very different. From what I have seen Morgan shows have the judges booth in the center and play very loud music. Far different than say QH or APHA shows that I have attended.

All of this of course is just my opinion, nothing formal, I am not an authority.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

It's all very confusing because there are some many divisions within English pleasure. There was one class at the Arab show where they dressed in Dressage gear (Shadbelly and Tophat) and rode in a big group. There was an announcer who asked them to ride the different gaits, just like in an English Pleasure class. I didn't see this at the Morgan show.

I wonder if it's different at breed specific shows; maybe they are looking for conformation to the breed standard?


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

In Morgan/arabian/saddlebred land- english pleasure is a saddleseat horse. I am not as familiar with Morgans and saddlebreds so they may have some different terminology for their class differentiations. 
Smaller shows may single out English pleaeuee as Hunter tack and western as western tack. But breed shows have Hunter, English (for saddleseat) and western. 
But in Arab world, County english pleasure is a horse that bridles high, has the lowest trot but is close to level (or higher) and has the most "manners". Thy are(or can be) asked to walk on a loose rein. 

English pleasure is a slightly flashier horse that trots level (or higher), and may allowed more allowances for behavior. 

Park horses have the biggest trots, and are allowed the least manners. They are the true peacocks of the Arab world. 

Show hack is often with country English pleasure to English pleasure horses in a dressage saddle and full bridle. The riders often have a shadbelly and top hat. The horses are asked for collected, regular and extended gaits in w/t/c as well as hand-gallop. But is often a *******ized collect and extend. It is more often a collected trot and a strong trot. 

Sport horse also has a show hack with horses that would be typically in the Hunter or dressage classes and enormous trots are not as expected.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I don't know, of course.

I would think any breed show should look for conformation to the breed standard; however, I imagine that in almost all cases it morphs into chasing the Blue Ribbon.

By way of judging, then breeding and training to what has won the Blue Ribbon before, then exaggerating to the point that the breed standard is lost.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks ladies. I know what you mean Dehda about the fake lenghtening, they just trot faster  

I just don't know how they pick a winner because a lot of them just look the same to me. 

Also, I've seen and heard that the only way to get that exagerated knee action is to tie the horse's front legs together and then make them trot really fast on the longe, which seems a little dangerous to me. I haven't seen that at a show though, only behind closed doors. So don't quote me on that 

So it sounds like the characteristics that are trained into an English Pleasure horse are not desirable in a Dressage horse?


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

No. They do not tie the legs together. BUT... They can be ridden or long-lined/longed with a heavy duty rubber attached between the two front legs and that could look like the legs are tied together. By working with the rubber tubing, they strengthen the leg muscles which can help and enhance the trot. It is just like you working out with rubber/stretchy material. It is a tool. 

But a saddleseat has to be bred to be able to trot like that, then trained well. Padded shoes em crease the action. But you can't take a western or hunter horse and create a quality saddleseat horse. They either have it. Or don't.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElR3U_u4ekk


That video is just ...... :shock:

Way too much paddling for my taste.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Its not my 'thing' but it takes a lot of skill to do it right so I won't knock it
They train the Arabians/part Arabians like this to get the high knee and head action and they seem to always ride them in training forks and built up shoes - though not like the Big Lick horses wear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UuqX7gA_G0


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Its not my 'thing' but it takes a lot of skill to do it right so I won't knock it


Maybe I'm just_ uneducated_ on the matter, but I don't see how that would be good on the knee joints (or the rest of the leg) to encourage the horse to "paddle" with their front feet and not move the leg in a straight manner; as I'm understanding that is the "desired" way of movement for this type of class?










Normally when I see a horse that paddles with their movement, I think of an unbalanced trim/shoe job or a conformational fault. 

So maybe someone can educate me if my way of thinking is wrong?


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks Dehda for the further explanation. 

Great video link Jaydee.

I don't want you all to think that I'm knocking saddle seat training; I have a lot of respect for other disciplines as long as no harm is done to the horse. I find English Pleasure fascinating; probably because it's sooo different from what I'm used to.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I can't help you Beau - like I said - not my thing and something I'd never heard of until I came to the US.
Certainly that action (we call it dishing in the UK) would be a huge No No in any British show ring - in that extreme it puts a massive strain on the knee joints
These Arabians look straighter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF0p0vgM62k
The high knee action seems popular in 'hunt seat classes as well though and all the Arabians and part breds I looked at when I was thinking of buying one had raised shoes and long feet to exaggerate the action


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

A horses conformation will dictate if the paddle or not. If they already toe out, and then extra weight and length of hoof is added, it is then exaggerated and you would notice it even more. I have found that many of these horses are built narrower and have a tendency to have toed-out conformation. But they are being chosen for their ability to bridle high and trot over level, and what they look like from the front is less important. That isn't to say that I have not seen beautiful plumb straight legs as well.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

frlsgirl said:


> It's all very confusing because there are some many divisions within English pleasure


More specifically, there are different disciplines of riding that have English Pleasure included in it.

The performance in English Pleasure in all divisions is the same though and contains your basic flat work. You will be asked to: walk, trot, canter, and reverse. Depending on the division, you may have additional gaits - like the Morgan show has the 'road' trot. 

For example:
Saddleseat has an English Pleasure Class
Hunter has an English Pleasure Class (Hunter Under Saddle)

Essentially, the English Pleasure class of each riding discipline keeps elements of its base riding division... So a Saddleseat horse (Morgan/Saddlebred) showing English Pleasure would still retain that high stepping and neck action. A hunter under saddle English Pleasure class would still retain elements from the base hunter class.

The idea is that you are showing that the horse is 'a pleasure to ride' in that specific discipline by showing off the basic work. To answer your OP, what makes a good English Pleasure horse is going to depend on the type of discipline you want to ride in.

Also, you will be asked to dress accordingly as well depending on the discipline - Saddleseat EP riders dress in Saddleseat attire, for example.


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## FlecksOfGold12 (Nov 9, 2014)

I happen to own an english pleasure horse. He can't jump but I've heard he could do dressage. You'd probably have to train him/her to do dressage. (Or hire someone if you're inexperienced) About personality, I don't really see a difference temperment wise between my horse and a jumping horse. Make sure you try a couple different horses before getting her/him. Hope this helped!


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I work at a Morgan barn that does saddleseat (english pleasure) and the majority of the horses that come through and excel at showing move like this naturally and only need a couple of shoes to perfect the movement. If a horse paddles we try to correct it through shoeing because it increases the chances of clipping. Though I'm usually around responsible trainers I've never really heard of major padding/shoing like in TWH. Usually if a horse needs help to perfect it's foot movement we work on a weight system or may do light shoeing (usually we take this route if there's an additional problem). I see 'park babies' take their first canter/trot and oh wow do they snap those feet up and move like that naturally! :lol:

As to the OP's original question I've seen many saddleseat horses go to dressage horses (and vice versa) now they may not be super competitive but when done properly I've noticed a lot of the collection for upper movements is the same. Where I work these horses are taught to collect themselves in order to build the correct muscles so they don't get hurt. Some horses are hotter than others so you have to watch out for that but otherwise they tend to do well at both. 

As for what the judge looks for I've been told it's proper collection, does the horse clip, leg movement and willingness (as well as yielding to the bridle). I don't ride it myself but that's just what I've been taught lol.


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## SaddleUp158 (Dec 26, 2008)

frlsgirl said:


> Thanks ladies. I know what you mean Dehda about the fake lenghtening, they just trot faster
> 
> I just don't know how they pick a winner because a lot of them just look the same to me.
> 
> ...


The true English horse naturally has that motion. It may be enhanced with shoeing, training, but if the horse does not have it no amount of shoeing and using stretchies will create that motion. Take Ana for example, no amount of shoeing up is going to get her to trot above level like an English or park horse. 

In the typical Morgan show barn, the training you will see put on the English horses in no way resembles anything dressage. Occasionally, you will find that amazing trainer who does incorporate dressage in their training - that is always nice to see.

In the Morgans, you have Classic Pleasure, English Pleasure and Park. Park being the most expressive and will be the biggest moving horses. In classic, manners are of utmost importance. In all the divisions you want a balanced mover. Classic horses also tend to have more type. Much like western, you want a pretty face as well (not going to be a judging criteria, but at the same time if you come down to two horses and need a tie breaker, the pretty faced one will win).

In English and Park, it is my pet peeve to see huge front ends coupled with hind ends that are just not there. Very unbalanced. (but really this is in all divisions, not how high can they trot, it is how they trot high.) The English and Park horses will have a much more upright front end/neck and head set than the classic horses who are typically a little lower and relaxed.


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## SaddleUp158 (Dec 26, 2008)

beau159 said:


> Maybe I'm just_ uneducated_ on the matter, but I don't see how that would be good on the knee joints (or the rest of the leg) to encourage the horse to "paddle" with their front feet and not move the leg in a straight manner; as I'm understanding that is the "desired" way of movement for this type of class?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Paddling is not encouraged or even desired. Unfortunately, horses who toe in or out seem to be bred with no consideration of this fault. Therefore, we have a lot of Morgans in the show ring who paddle or wing in or out when they go. Too much emphasis is placed on how high the horse trots (not how the horse trots high), that the winging or paddling is often overlooked.


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