# Horses damaged BO's barn, barn illegally rented to me



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

If what he did was illegal, he cannot collect any damages.

My dad watches Judge Judy. If someone rents out an illegal apartment, and the tenant does not pay rent, they will not be able to get their money back. I'm assuming the same would apply here.

In the meantime, change phone numbers, or ignore all calls.


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## luvmydrafts (Dec 26, 2013)

He is now suing me, so I hope that that is right. I told him I wasn't paying him anymore because the barn was never fit to rent for horses to begin with, and he said he will see me in court.


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## Shropshirerosie (Jan 24, 2012)

I do not know your local law, but the basic facts are as I see them:

He has a piece of paper saying that you agree to pay $x for damages done to his property.

You are now asking if you can say to the court that you DID do the damage but it was your horses that did it, and your horses shouldn't have been there, so you are not responsible for the damage.

Hmmm it seems a bit weak to me, sorry.

You willingly put your horses there, without checking whether the property was legal for horses - he didn't MAKE you put your horses there. And according to the piece of paper, you subsequently agreed to pay for the damage.

I feel sorry for you because I would be willing to bet that the value of any damage your horses may have done was less than he is claiming off you. I think that if you are going to argue anything in court you could try to have the amount he is claiming against you reduced.

Good luck with it. Sometimes it is better to give in, having learned a valuable (expensive!) lesson.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

If he does get any money back, it would only be for the cost of replacement/fixing. He cannot sue for a new barn. He would also have to prove your horses did the damage.

Do you have pictures of the barn when you moved in? Any other animals on the property?

Does the barn have a building permit? Are barns required to have permits where you live? If it does not have a permit, you can threaten to report the barn as illegal and get it torn down or have him fined. It may make him back off.

IF he has electricity that is another issue. My barn has permits but we are not supposed to have electricity in it. I'm not sure what the fine is for having electricity added... My barn had to be in the middle of the property- you have to have it so far from the neighbors, otherwise it is not up to code. The problem is if he no longer has animals in the barn, he may not be violating the coding laws. 

You need to check the laws in your area. I'm not sure how well apartment laws apply to a barn.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

The only tactic that I can see is to get proof that the barn can not be used for livestock (apparently there is something that on record) and have it at the ready. Then throw yourself on the mercy of the court if it actually gets that far - tell them the facts as you have found them out including the state of the barn when you moved in and the judge may let you off on what you've paid so far or some other reduced amount. 

It's a pity you signed the agreement to repay. I'm not a lawyer by any stretch but it comes across that you recognized it as your responsibility and that you are prepared to make restitution. I hope, by the way, that you have receipts for any payment(s) you've given over already.


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## luvmydrafts (Dec 26, 2013)

He told me he would sue me if I didn't agree to sign it. 

I'm done for if I can't win this or get it greatly reduced. I don't have $3000 or even $2000. To say nothing of being able to afford a lawyer.

I do have proof that the barn is unfit for livestock according to the township. It is not up to code because it is too close to the fence line. I also have receipts of what I have already paid.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

luvmydrafts said:


> He told me he would sue me if I didn't agree to sign it...


 Add that to the argument - he made you sign under duress (worth a try).


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## commonfish (Jan 2, 2011)

The way I see it, you got two options: try your luck in small claims, or hire a laser with experience in livestock and property laws and try to get the whole thing thrown out. I would gather up everything that you think may help (photos of the barn and damages, legal documents, see if you can find minimum standards of horse keeping as required by local law) and go see a lawer for help, even if you just ask for legal advice, so that you have help from a local expert on the laws. 

I have no clue how this is going to turn out for you, but it sounds like you've gotten yourself in quite the jam. I wouldn't expect to walk away from this without having to pay somebody, somewhere- be it the landowner, lawyer or court costs. The fact is, you brought some of this on yourself and now you pay the piper. 

Always get everything in writing, and never sign anything with complete understanding of what it is you are agreeing to. I've signed a lease contract in the past where we went through and made notations of everything and how responsibilities where going to break down before it was signed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Court isn't so bad, in fact once it goes to court it could just as easily swing in your favor. It is common for someone to claim a pile of damages after someone has departed and I'm sure the judge is wise to this. Don't sign anything. Ask him to mail it to you and keep it for court. If there's a record of him calling you, keep them. Do not initiate contact with him. Should he call again, hang up. As long as you talk to him he is in control. If it goes to court, dress in a classy manner. A judge likes that, man or woman. He will have his say, then the judge will ask you some questions. It's not criminal court.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> ... It's not criminal court.


 Good point. If the amount is $3,000 (and should be less if the OP has already paid back some) then it is more likely a small claims matter. Where I am (and I don't know what it is like in Ontario or the USA), lawyers are frowned upon in small claims and the preference is to have basically the two parties and the judge deal with the matter.


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## doubleopi (Dec 27, 2011)

Also, something to think about. He may just be bluffing. If he is trying to rip you off, which is what the whole situation sounds like to me. Not saying you shouldn't prepare, but he may just be trying to bully you as well. I would think it would be worth it to pay for a half hour consult with a lawyer familiar with livestock laws just to see where you stand in this situation.


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

I would go to court you have nothing to lose if you lose it will still be the same payment to him if you win then he gets nothing


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

In most of Canada even if the judge does award damages to the plaintiff, it's basically worthless. The guy still has to try to collect. Don't forget, if he takes you to court, he loses time off work. Some bosses don't like that (if he has one). Cool your heels. If you get a summons, put on your Sunday best and send a smile the judge's way. He's there as a mediator.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

The barn owner seemingly has a weak case and was probably bluffing when he first claimed the damages. He would not only have to prove your horse did the damages but also how exactly the figure was arrived at if he did sue you.

Now, he has a great case. You admitted - in writing - to the damages and agreed to the amount. You also agreed to pay back that amount.

If the barn owner has a lawyer and is going through the regular civil court system, it is not worth fighting it. You will pay more than the money owed for a lawyer.

Small claims court, however, will not cost you anything and is not something to be scared of. Worst case scenario is probably you spend some time in a courtroom and end up having to pay whatever it is you still owe.

Note that most lawyers will provide a free consultation and tell you if you "have a case." Even if you are being sued in small claims court, if it worth speaking to a lawyer to get some advice.

From what you wrote, the story sounds like this:

- History of late payments and asked to leave
- Barn owner claims damages
- You agree to damages and to pay back in full
- You look for way out of paying for damages and find a zoning technicality
- You decide to default on payment contract

You can probably get _something_ in small claims court. The zoning issue may be relevant, but I think it is a mistake to base your entire defense on it. For all you know, he may have obtained a variance and be allowed to legally board horses there.

Point out that you were pressured to sign. Did he threaten to sue you? Threaten to put a lien on your property? Take away your horse? Doesn't matter what he would actually be able to do... just what he threatened to do and if you believed it could happen.

Did you ever argue the extent or amount of damage done? Can you provide any witnesses to the condition of the property when you first started boarding there? While it is tough to argue your horse _didn't_ do the damage (since you already agreed he did) that argument is worth a shot - especially if you felt strong-armed into signing the agreement.

Finally - do you have homeowner's insurance? Check with your agent. Some or all of the horse "damage" may be covered. If so, they will handle everything and answer any lawsuit with their lawyers. Again, the "smoking gun" is the payment agreement you signed, which may still make you personally liable for the amount.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Partial payment may not be an admission of guilt if you felt you were coerced/bullied into making payment, since this is a man vs a woman.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> Partial payment may not be an admission of guilt if you felt you were coerced/bullied into making payment,


The partial payment is not as important as the signed document. This is the OP's admission that her horse caused the damage and that she has accepted responsibility for it. Coercion is a valid issue, but she is going to have to prove that - which isn't necessarily easy. As I mentioned, it is definitely worth a shot if the OP really felt she was forced into signing (you don't want to lie in court).



> since this is a man vs a woman.


I really hope that point alone is not enough to prove coercion. Unless the "man" involved actually implied threat of physical force (and was obviously able to carry through on such a threat) I hope gender isn't a factor for either side's argument. The other side of the sexist coin is that the BO underestimated the actual damages because the boarder wore a low cut top to distract him.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Tazmanian Devil said:


> ... Unless the "man" involved actually implied threat of physical force (and was obviously able to carry through on such a threat) I hope gender isn't a factor for either side's argument. ...


 If not on the basis of gender, then perhaps on the basis of size as men tend to be bigger than women. Therefore, if OP was the smaller of the two and the "signing" took place where OP felt she could not adequately protect herself (ie get into a building, get to a vehicle, do karate-type stuff, etc.) that could have been very intimidating situation if the barn owner was becoming demanding or aggressive and the only thing left to do is sign to stay safe.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Telling her he will take her to court could be seen as a verbal threat, depending on his tone. I remember a man demanding money from my father, that he would sue. Try as he may he couldn't ruffle my father who remained polite. As the guy continued with his threats, my father interjected and told him to do what he felt was necessary, and that he (my father) would do what he felt would be necessary. This totally derailed the guy who'd advanced to hysterics and slammed the phone down. My father knew it was coming so held the phone well away from his ear. Absolutely nothing came of this.


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## GoGoJoeGranny (Dec 15, 2012)

Anyone here in NJ? What are the laws for boarding horses up there? I am in NC, I know I HAD to have insurance to keep my friend's horse on my own property while she relocated (boarding contract required insurance). If the same insurance is required in NJ, OP could ask the judge if paying the deductible would be sufficient. And if insurance is required and the property owner didn't have it, then the boarding contract was never legal.


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## luvmydrafts (Dec 26, 2013)

Thank you all for your responses.

I am not smart enough or have enough time or energy to pursue this in court, so I am just going to cut my other expenses as much as I can to just pay him the amount that he is demanding.


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## ladygodiva1228 (Sep 5, 2012)

Before you pay anything else, I would demand a cost estimate from the BO as to how and where he came up with $3000 for the damages. 
I would also go to the town hall and report that the "barn" is being rented out to people. Some towns require that the property be zoned for horse stables which is what it would be if he is renting it. It sounds like this is guy is looking for money and found a sucker to give it to him. 
I would let him take you to court. The courts will ask for pictures of the damages and they also will ask for a cost estimate of the damages. 
Having a signed contract that you were bullied and threatened into signing doesn't always hold up in court.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

luvmydrafts said:


> Thank you all for your responses.
> 
> I am not smart enough or have enough time or energy to pursue this in court, so I am just going to cut my other expenses as much as I can to just pay him the amount that he is demanding.


 Wait & see if he is really going to try to sue you, then just go to Court. I think he is all talk & sees you as easy money.

BTW, $3000 is more of a barn addition than repairs. Ask to see a repair estimate from a professional.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Your time in court will be less than one hour as the judge/magistrate has many others to hear. How many hours do you have to work to come up with the money you seem willing to pay? BTW, the judge may ask the BO for three estimates and if he doesn't produce them there's a good chance he won't be awarded anything and may have to reimburse you. The judge won't go on his say-so. So gather up your paperwork, cancelled cheques, receipts and go have your hour in court.


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

I bought my whole run in with tack and feed room and cute windows for about $1700 delivered to my pasture. I'm just throwing that out there. I could have had power and water out there for about another $500 and some sweat. Altogether $3k makes a pretty nice horse barn. I could have finished it in to two stalls rather than a run in... Make him take you to court.


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## Adam (Feb 6, 2012)

luvmydrafts said:


> the owner of the barn claimed my horses did nearly $3000 damage to this small barn, they had ripped off some of the vinyl siding, dislodged an electrical outlet and apparently kicked a bump into one wall and did some kind of damage to the doors on the other side. The barn was already in disrepair before I moved my 2 horses in there, they made it worse.


I've done the math over and over with the damage you have listed, and can't figure out how the guy came up with $3000. I can build a pretty good sized shed for this price.
The guy sounds like a bully. I know I'm not you, but I'd let him take me to court, however I'm just not sure how much leverage he's going to have with that document you signed.... :-(


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## FancytheBelgianMare (Jan 3, 2014)

Personally I would offer to make the repairs myself. It sounds like he is taking you for all you're worth and that's not right! $3,000 is WAY too much for simple repairs, especially all of which would cost LESS than $500 at the Home Depot. Labor would be a few hours at best... he's just kicking you while you're down and realizes that he can push you around. The place I board doesn't charge for small things like that. They realize that horses have PERSONALITIES and sometimes hurt/break things. When you're a boarding facility you take on those responsibilities. I would go get the amount significantly reduced! Or tell him that you would like to see what the money you've already paid him went into. I bet he hasn't even made any repairs!!!!! DO NOT GIVE IN TO THIS CON ARTIST!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Call me old fashioned, but... I think that if your animals did the damage, you should pay for it. It seems a bit "got a scratch, lawyer up!" to me - you admit your stock did the damage, you sign an agreement to pay for the damage, then you try to get out of it. 

Also, be careful about that precedence. It's a completely different scenario. It is a straight forward, didn't pay the rent case. If the tenant then damaged the property, while they wouldn't be responsible for the rent, they would probably still be accountable for the damage they caused. It's like hitting someone's car - just because their car is crap, doesn't mean you don't have to pay for the damages.


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## EdmontonHorseGal (Jun 2, 2013)

i'm going to ask this:

did the property owner know that his barn was not zoned correctly for livestock? was he aware that he was renting out an 'illegal barn' to somebody with horses? that may be a factor in court.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

go to small claims, take all your paper work even the info stating he is illegal. 
Or send him a copy of it showing he is illegal , maybe he will drop it.
Go to court. Small claims (usually under a certain $ amt ) cannot have attorneys.


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