# What about this Thoroughbred Mare?



## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

I really appreciate everyone's help with critiquing the last horse that I looked at, who ultimately failed his vet check. I'm going to look at this mare this weekend. Any opinions on her? Again, looking for a dressage mount. She's a 16.2 hh 7 year old thoroughbred mare. Once again, thank you for your input!


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## silverxslinky (Jul 23, 2013)

She's nice. There are a couple of little things that aren't my favorite. For example her bone is a bit light, her back is a tad short, and she's a bit wasp waisted. But she has a very pretty nicely balanced overall look. I would personally be more interested in seeing how she moves than what her conformation looks like for a dressage prospect though.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Her back is on the longer side

I'm not sure what else as the background makes it hard to see


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Her hindquarters look weak to my eye -- not enough bulk to them. "Rear drive" power is absolutely essential for a successful dressage horse, and I'm not convinced that she has the capacity to develop much power from her hindquarters, even with more conditioning work.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Her hind leg looks awfully straight.


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

I thought that her back looked long as well. But Silverxslinky, you think it looks short? Her hind end does look weak. Can that be built up, or will she always be weak in the hind? And I agree. Now that you mentioned she is straight through her hind leg, I can definitely see that. I thought that I attached two pictures, but am only seeing one. Here is the other that I thought I posted earlier. Not the best picture, and she is standing odd, and is on a slight hill. This picture makes her back look odd to me...


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I think her back isn't overly long, but her coupling is long and weak, and her flat croup isn't helping matters any.

I do see a weak hind end and I don't really see it improving with muscling or hill work. Her hind leg is straight, which will probably make it difficult for her to reach under herself and drive like she needs to for dressage. She's also wasp-waisted. Nice deep heart-girth. Shark fin withers, which might make saddle fit a nightmare.

Overall, I'm not a fan of her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with Drafty, she is weak behind. 

Not a horse I would want for dressage.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Forgot to add that she is VERY pigeon-breasted. :shock: Haven't seen one that bad for a while.


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

I agree. I will take photos of her on Saturday. I'm hoping the pictures are just bad. We will find out!


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

Drafty, if her coupling is long and weak, then her LS joint is behind her point of hip, correct? Where do you see her LS joint? What about her point of hip?


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

I thought that I read a while back that a flatter croup can actually be beneficial because horses with flatter croups tend to have longer and more ground covering strides. Am I wrong? I love this site. So educational! Thank you all!


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

https://youtu.be/LojLJylFK6Q

Any change of opinion?


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## silverxslinky (Jul 23, 2013)

Let me clarify what I meant regarding the back being "short" she looked to me in the first image as though she had a large shoulder coupled with a slightly rounded lumbar region that was unlikely to tolerate a saddle that extended past her last thoracic vertebra at all. I think the first image may have been deceiving in regards to the size of the shoulder, you may not have the problems with saddle fit that I initially thought you might. Other posters are correct in that her coupling is long and weak, and the little belly tuck makes that look a bit worse than it is. But her back is not long. If you were to mark her up think that you would find that she close to equal parts shoulder, barrel, and hindquarters (ideal).

Ive marked her up a bit for you here:









In regards to the video, her trot really isn't anything special. She has decent articulation of the hock which actually surprises me, but she doesn't really reach under herself. Note that she doesn't even really track up most of the time. She is also very unbalanced. She would not be my pick for a dressage prospect, personally.

As for the video, the trot isn't anything special


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

Thank you for your explanation and taking time to mark up her photo. I appreciate it! That helps me visualize what people are saying.


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## silverxslinky (Jul 23, 2013)

no problem! she ended up being a little longer than I thought...I guess my eye is a bit off. that's why marking up can be a good tool.


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

Anyone else? Does seeing her move change anyone's opinion?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I don't like that even freely lunged she doesn't step underneath herself all that much. Even when she's getting fast and kind of all over the place, she still doesn't have a good step under.

Makes me question her hips, stifles, hocks, back...etc.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Maybe it's just me, but I wasn't a fan of the fact that she wouldn't attempt the canter for more than a couple of strides. Even though the person lunging her was putting a decent amount of pressure on, she just wouldn't do it. Makes me think something is off, as even my lazy draft cross will pick up a canter when pressure is put on. 

Her trot is cute, but more a WP jog (or what a WP jog should be :lol: ), not something I'd pick for dressage. Like Sky said, she doesn't track up and engage that back end, which makes me think something is off.


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

I guess I should also say that the mare is green. She is an OTTB, and hasn't had much time put into her.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

arrowattack09 said:


> I guess I should also say that the mare is green. She is an OTTB, and hasn't had much time put into her.


But evenso a horse can and is able to move out nicely and she just doesn't. Green or not.

Look at this ONE day old foal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCUyhw2LWTw


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

I understand. I was more or less referring to the comment that she was unbalanced.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> But evenso a horse can and is able to move out nicely and she just doesn't. Green or not.
> 
> Look at this ONE day old foal:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCUyhw2LWTw


Exactly.

Look at this picture of my gelding trotting. This was maybe his six or seventh ride ever. See how far he's tracking up under himself? And that's with a rider who is relatively unbalanced (I realize that I'm leaning forward in the saddle...bad habit that I didn't use to have...long story)


And here, without a rider (he'd been broke to saddle for a few months, at this point, but still only had less than a dozen rides on him):


If you look at the mare you're considering, not once does she track up under herself. That leads me to believe that either 1) her conformation is such that she can't or 2) there's some issue in her hind that is preventing it.


As for being unbalanced, I think Sky's video also illustrates well that, without a rider, any horse should be balanced, even if just asked to lunge on a circle. Unbalance may be evident under saddle in a green horse, but being that unbalanced on a simple lunge leads me to believe that there's something else going on.


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## silverxslinky (Jul 23, 2013)

To clarify, again, I don't personally think the balance is indicative of a soundness issue. I looks to me like she's got the horse going it's weaker direction and the mare is falling in over her stronger shoulder. Watch how she throws her nose to the outside and pulls with that inside shoulder. I think this is why she wont canter rather than her being unsound. She also just happens to be the type of horse that naturally pulls with her shoulders instead of pushing with her butt, which doesn't help with the lazy hind end. Basically she's a typical OTTB in a lot of ways and not really much of a natural talent at dressage.All of this can be fixed or improved with good training but you're setting yourself up for a lot of frustration if you're not already a competent dressage trainer.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Not one I'd pick and not for dressage.

I don't dislike her movement personally. She's much cuter in the video.

I do see the canter issue as a flaw as opposed to an "oops" moment.. think there' something going on there. And while gaits can be improved her weak points are mostly conformational and cannot be changed.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I find her croup a bit flat and her hind leg a bit over straight. She is a bit pigeon breasted and her shoulder is a bit steep although the angle at point of shoulder is adequate to open. One sort of balances the other. However, she is also down hill. With the flat croup and the straight hind leg and being down hill, she will not make a good dressage horse. All horses can do lower levels and you can train her higher but she won't be good at it is my guess. 

Due to her rear end with its flat croup and straight hind leg she will probably lack scope over fences as well. 

She is a sturdy looking horse. I do not see light bone. She is a tad bit tied at the knee, but not badly. 

Just looked at the video. She is a flat mover and not a dressage horse.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

One thing to note in the video (to back up my comment about her limited movement behind) when she walks there is absolutely NO over reach of the front hoof print by the hind foot. She does not even seem to step into the front foot print... but falls short of it. 

I stand by my critique.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I'd be more interested in seeing her walk and canter. I don't focus so much on the trot because the trot is easy to fix, especially when they're on uneven ground and being chased by a dog (not getting after the owner) I just don't think it's fair to judge some things in that situation. That said I've seen a horse who was honestly the ugliest moving horse I have ever seen (had severe epm, owner waited until it was pretty advanced to treat him). But we got him going and after almost a year he ended up being quite a nice horse like an 8 canter and 7 trot. I don't think he'd ever have really gone up the levels because he had almost no sitability but he did pretty well at training and 1st level.

For a dressage prospect and I look at it like well how much money do you have? What is your plan and realistically where are you going to be in 5yrs? What level do you realistically think you'd be competing at? And being honest with yourself about what your skill set is. I also look at it as you can take a horse with 3 basically decent gaits and make them into something nice based on the training program and how they're ridden. I agree with the above post that it is hard to develop something that doesn't have a ton of natural ability and unless you already have that skill set it's going to be frustrating but I also look at it as how much money do you have (you don't have to say) but for example for an under 5k prospect I'd see what she can do vs if you have 10-15k to spend on a prospect I'd say move on.

When you don't have a lot of money you have to compensate in some areas and be realistic about what you can get in that price range. For example when I was shopping I knew I wasn't going to find something fancy but I wanted something capable and I knew to find that I'd probably have to compensate some on ridability because trickier horses are harder to sell, so the price is sometimes more flexible. The horse I bought is a pretty tricky ride and he's not fancy but he is capable.


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