# Lifting the back!



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Hey all!

So attached is a picture of riding today. Jax did this for maybe 5-10% of the time, and rest of the time he had his head up. The thing is, he'd do this of his own accord once in a while, I'd give a little rein to let him and say "yeah! do that!" and then his silly head would pop back up. He does drop his nose on command, but it's kind of a fake drop that doesn't last long-- or go this comfortably low.

I am working on getting him to move long and low with a lifted back, but I'm having some trouble.

I am doing standing ab exercises ("raking" my fingers under his belly or pressing into the muscle alongside his tail to make him lift his back), trying to get in some hill trotting (and trotting, trotting, trotting...)...

We tried dangling a carrot on a stick ahead and below his nose while riding today, but he is too smart and would just pick up the rope holding the carrot and try to lift it into his mouth (ha!). I am going to try to do some targeting with a lunge stick so that I can ride with it below his nose and he'll reach down to touch it.

Lessons will start again as soon as I have a vet out to check his on-going hind leg stiffness (he isn't the slightest lame, so no worries).

Any thoughts? I really want to help my boy use his muscles better and learn to relax into his movement.

ETA: Don't mind my looking downward-- it was an "oh my gosh! he's doing it!" look.


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## horsegirlalex (Jan 23, 2013)

hello! 
so unlike you, i ride english, so having your horses head down in what i do is imperative haha so i would like to give you some advice 

when i ride my horse (walk trot or canter ) i ALWAYS have contact through the reins with my horse. it will mostly be half halts through the outside rein (alternating 3 beats to a rest) or pushing into a bend through the inside rein! if that makes sense haha! 

ALSO another thing that helps, is motivation!!! my trainer is a little fruity haha and all to often sings while instructing us.... oh lord *face palm*. BUT he would always sing MOTIVATION IS THE KEY! meaning the more you have your horse going, the more he/she will want to extend, and put her head down  all to many times my horse has wanted to throw her head up, and i would simply kick her to get going and she would lower it back down haha 

alsssoooo , circles! bend her and motivate her through a smooth circle to help get that head down  

ALLLSSSO! when you eventually get her head down at a fairly constant time, lift your hands up a few inches, it will help her lift through her back!

so yea hop this helped  GOOD LUCK!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Getting the horse to use his body is not trick training. I did laugh out loud when you mentioned that you'd actually tried a carrot on a stick - I thought that only happened in cartoons!

A round back comes not from 'faking' a 'head set', but from working the horse's whole body. I am a Dressage rider (English) so do not feel qualified to give specific advice to a Western rider. However the concepts are fairly well the same - work the horse's hind end, and the front end will follow. 
Find an instructor that knows what their doing. Targeting sticks in front of his nose to fake a dropped head is not a brilliant idea - is carrying a long stick around everywhere you ride REALLY practical? I suspect 99.9% of the population will realise that your faking the horse's "head set"


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## Audacious14 (Jan 21, 2013)

My horse also had a major problem with this, buttttt we ride English. 

I don't feel comfortable or qualified to give you advice about Western riding, but try talking to your chiropractor (if you have one). When my chiro first saw my horse after we bought him from his previous owners (we were knew to owning a horse at the time), she told us the muscles in his back were dead due to an incorrect saddle and kids tugging his head up (he was a summer camp horse). He used to race around the ring because his saddle was hurting him, but he was too good of a boy to toss anyone off.

She then told us to use a belly band.  Basically, it's a rubberband that goes underneath the horse's belly towards the end of his barrel (closer to his butt end, not shoulder). I noticed a difference the first time we rode with it. It felt like there was more power in my horse and that he was now using his muscles correctly. We've been using it for a while and now my horse rides with his head down, relaxed and he just plods along happily. He's also gained about 85% more muslce mass: he's a completely different horse. Talk to your chiro about it. 

And good luck! 

PS if you search for "horse belly band" on Google, most of the images ARE NOT what a belly band looks like. Mine is blue, made of rubber, not very thick at all, but about 5 inches wide. I'll try searching around for it.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Or.... just learn to ride effectively to be able to lift the horse's back on your own, instead of forking out on various gadgets to make money for chiro's and so on. 
There is no need to be strapping things around bellies, teaching them to 'target' a pole in front of them etc. to get their back going. Just plain old good riding.


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## Audacious14 (Jan 21, 2013)

Everyone has different opinions on how they ride or what they ride with. I know the belly band was a bit out there, but it did work and it doesn't hurt your horse. You can also use Kayty's idea of just riding. Good plain old riding. Although I used the belly band, I didn't use it each time I rode - less than half the time I was riding. 

The MAIN thing I did was circles. And cirlces. And more circles. Teach your horse to bend and move off the leg. The circles also help with balance. Also, whenever your horse puts their head down, PRAISE THEM. It will let them know that they're doing what you want them to do. They're also seeking reasurance (or at least mine is haha). Good luck.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I like what I see in that picture; horse is trotting out nicely, reaching well under himself, stretching down and out and you are light on his back. Good Stuff!


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Thanks TinyLiny!  Like I said, when I keep asking he'll do this once in a while, but he has a trouble holding it due to muscle development/the fact that he loves to go back to that high head carriage.

Kayty-- A horse who does not have adequate muscling has a difficult time using his ring of muscles and abdominals specifically to lift his back. Muscles will not spontaneously develop and strengthen when a rider asks them to (with riding), hence my current predicament. Encouraging him to relax and lower his head (to "put his back into it") is a small part of helping him learn to use his hind instead of his front.

The issue is muscle building. Actually, a belly band on-and-off is quite a good idea, because it will cause a reflexive contraction of the abdominals and lifting of the back to build those muscles over time-- which is what I'm looking for! He needs to learn how to use those muscles before he can put them into practice, if that makes sense. Building them is what I'm looking for here, not how to ask him. 

Edited to say-- the targeted "reaching" exercises are not to fake a headset. Think about it mechanically. If a horse is reaching downward, it is not so easy to hollow out the back. Rather, it encourages them to lift and round their back.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Also, Audacious, I do have a chiro for my boy! Her work has helped him tremendously.  Thanks for the advice!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

existentialpony said:


> Thanks TinyLiny!  Like I said, when I keep asking he'll do this once in a while, but he has a trouble holding it due to muscle development/the fact that he loves to go back to that high head carriage.
> 
> *Kayty-- A horse who does not have adequate muscling has a difficult time using his ring of muscles and abdominals specifically to lift his back. Muscles will not spontaneously develop and strengthen when a rider asks them to (with riding), hence my current predicament. Encouraging him to relax and lower his head (to "put his back into it") is a small part of helping him learn to use his hind instead of his front.*
> 
> ...


As a competitive Dressage rider I'd hope I'd be aware of this  
In Dressage, strengthening the back and encouraging the swing of the hind legs through the back is one of the most vital concepts that we teach a horse from day one. 
No, they can't carry their back and swing for long periods of time at first, hence we ask only for short bursts at a time, with walk breaks in between. Gradually the muscles develop and the horse becomes more confident and capable to carry its rider rather than hollow away. 
And, surprise surprise, no fancy gadgets are needed. 
Encouraging this swing under saddle, by the rider, BUILDS their back. 

Concentrating on just dropping their head will yes, stretch the neck. But in the process you will very easily dump the horse on its front legs, which means that it will actually brace its neck and back to remain in balance. 
So you might get more muscle, but it will be muscle in the wrong places. This is why you will see in every piece of literature, every coach worth their salt and every rider who has some concept of working a horse correctly, will ALWAYS advise that the hind legs MUST work before the front end is put in a 'frame'.


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## TKS2005 (Jan 31, 2013)

I agree with Kayty. Any gizmo, gadget or thingamajig that makes training a horse seem easy is a gimic. O-ring snaffle, time, balance, consistency, effort...


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## princecharming (Dec 2, 2011)

i have a similar question....not to steal your thread  If i have my horse moving foreward, his back free and swinging, his legs tracking, and over tracking a bit...If i hold me outside rien and apply inside leg his head will drop and neck will round. however his back doesnt lift! I take dressage lessons with a grand prix rider, and she never mentions it....but i always wonder! is it just a more advanced concept? does he need more muscle? is that still a correct 'frame' or 'headset'? *again...sorry if this is stealing a thread, but i dont wand to make repetitive ones *


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

princecharming said:


> i have a similar question....not to steal your thread  If i have my horse moving foreward, his back free and swinging, his legs tracking, and over tracking a bit...If i hold me outside rien and apply inside leg his head will drop and neck will round. however his back doesnt lift! I take dressage lessons with a grand prix rider, and she never mentions it....but i always wonder! is it just a more advanced concept? does he need more muscle? is that still a correct 'frame' or 'headset'? *again...sorry if this is stealing a thread, but i dont wand to make repetitive ones *


This depends on what you are thinking is a lifting of his back. 
If he is truly swinging his back, working into a contact and round through his 'frame', his back will 'lift'. 
It is dependent on the rider's sense of feel as to whether they can actually detect this 'lifting' of the back or not. Some riders just have not had the hours in the saddle and experience, or just lack feel, to be able to feel that subtle raising feeling under the saddle. 
Your best bet is to get a lesson videoed, then look at it with your coach giving commentary on when you have your horse's back, and when you are in a 'false frame'.


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## princecharming (Dec 2, 2011)

i can feel it, but its very small, just feels lighter...I suppose i was expecting something more dramatic  For sure going over videos with my coach


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

I have to ask.....since this has come up......my horse has just had a chiro visit and I have to work on stretching the base of his neck......so I've been riding him on a VERY draped rein (in fact the more I let out, the lower his head goes!) and I've been doing a LOT of jogging.......and it FEELS really good, he is straight and his barrel is just swinging from side to side quite dramatically and he works up quite a sweat.......

this lowered head and barrel swinging is a good thing I suspect......if he swings his barrel and has his head and neck low and relaxed with no contact from me but a little squeezing here and there for encouragement from me.....is that considered long and low and does it mean he is using his back......he can work like this all relaxed for half an hour with little breaks here and there, and he does sweat!


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Muppetgirl said:


> I have to ask.....since this has come up......my horse has just had a chiro visit and I have to work on stretching the base of his neck......so I've been riding him on a VERY draped rein (in fact the more I let out, the lower his head goes!) and I've been doing a LOT of jogging.......and it FEELS really good, he is straight and his barrel is just swinging from side to side quite dramatically and he works up quite a sweat.......
> 
> this lowered head and barrel swinging is a good thing I suspect......if he swings his barrel and has his head and neck low and relaxed with no contact from me but a little squeezing here and there for encouragement from me.....is that considered long and low and does it mean he is using his back......he can work like this all relaxed for half an hour with little breaks here and there, and he does sweat!


I'm on the "?" side of this, but I did have one comment-- the more draped rein = lower head sounds like he is seeking contact with the bit, which is awesome! I would consider what you are describing as "long and low." Let's see what the experts have to say, hehe.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Muppet, if you can feel him swinging over his back, then that is a good thing. Having him reaching into the bridle and lengthen from the wither will really help the issues with the base of his neck.

When I first bought Spighi, he was very build up at the top of his neck, and had a hollow in front of his wither and was VERY hollow over his back - it almost looked like a sway back seeing as he is very slightly bum high. 
Since working him quite round, a little deep and really stretching from the wither, both of these areas have built up to the point that you can barely notice that there was a problem there. So many horses are ridden with a dip in front of the wither, rather than pushing the ears forward and away from the rider - leading to a lot of these neck and wither issues.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Kayty said:


> Muppet, if you can feel him swinging over his back, then that is a good thing. Having him reaching into the bridle and lengthen from the wither will really help the issues with the base of his neck.
> 
> When I first bought Spighi, he was very build up at the top of his neck, and had a hollow in front of his wither and was VERY hollow over his back - it almost looked like a sway back seeing as he is very slightly bum high.
> Since working him quite round, a little deep and really stretching from the wither, both of these areas have built up to the point that you can barely notice that there was a problem there. So many horses are ridden with a dip in front of the wither, rather than pushing the ears forward and away from the rider - leading to a lot of these neck and wither issues.


Kayty.....Spighi sounds just like my guy over the back! Do you know how pleased I am to read what you just wrote! He swings through the barrel so much that anyone riding behind me will comment because they can see me swaying from side to side while he jogs, it's really comfy and relaxing to ride to as well and my reins are completely draped, no contact whatsoever.......SO since this is an easy thing for us to do then I guess we will have no problem working and stretching that top line!!!! He also develops quite a sweat doing this!

Note to self.....push ears forward! 

Thank you Kayty!! I feel like I'm doing something good for my horse now!!!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Yep - push ears away from your belly button  
No matter what you're doing, ears away from belly!!! Never never never bring the neck backwards or you'll end up with that blasted dip in front of the wither!

I'll have to dig up some photo's of Speeg when I got him, and how he wanted to work - short neck, no stretch from the wither, bum high with a hollow back. "Pretty" frame for a pony clubber, definitely not what I want!!!!


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Kayty said:


> Yep - push ears away from your belly button
> No matter what you're doing, ears away from belly!!! Never never never bring the neck backwards or you'll end up with that blasted dip in front of the wither!
> 
> I'll have to dig up some photo's of Speeg when I got him, and how he wanted to work - short neck, no stretch from the wither, bum high with a hollow back. "Pretty" frame for a pony clubber, definitely not what I want!!!!


I feel like I've had a major light bulb moment.....got to love that! And yes some pics would be nice!


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

I have been working on long and low with my mare. I use clicker training with my horse.(I know many of you don't care for C/T). I started just keeping contact, and when she dropped her head at all, I gave her more rein and C/T. She really caught on quickly, so now she goes around the arena 3 times long and low to get C/T. When she is really stepping under herself and rounding up, I C/T then too with extra treats to say "you nailed it!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I occasionally ride with carrot pieces in my pocket, and will give my horse a piece if he has given me a few really exceptional steps, particularly when starting new movements. But never as a bribery for basic work.


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## cowgirl928 (Feb 4, 2012)

now I have a question, and not to be thread jacking but it seems like asking the dressage riders will be a good idea...my horse is gaited, how will i get her to travel in long and low when her natural gait is to foxtrot with her head up? I can only do long and low in a walk but i really want to improve on her back muscling so she can gait more effectively. I don't want to trot her because i still want to do more work with her sticking in her foxtrot, but in order for me to advance her from her foxtrot to her canter i need to do some muscling because she crossfires like you would not BELIEVE, so any other ideas for what i can do?


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## FaceTheMusic (Dec 28, 2012)

Kayty said:


> So many horses are ridden with a dip in front of the wither, rather than pushing the ears forward and away from the rider - leading to a lot of these neck and wither issues.


Kayty, I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Could you explain a bit more please?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

cowgirl928 said:


> now I have a question, and not to be thread jacking but it seems like asking the dressage riders will be a good idea...my horse is gaited, how will i get her to travel in long and low when her natural gait is to foxtrot with her head up? I can only do long and low in a walk but i really want to improve on her back muscling so she can gait more effectively. I don't want to trot her because i still want to do more work with her sticking in her foxtrot, but in order for me to advance her from her foxtrot to her canter i need to do some muscling because she crossfires like you would not BELIEVE, so any other ideas for what i can do?


Unfortunately I have zero experience with gaited horses, so I do not want to give you advice and have it turn out ruining her gait. 
Perhaps ask your question in the Gaited Breeds section of the forum, or try in the English Riding/Horse Riding section as you will get a wider range of responses there. I am just a little leery of telling you to ride her forward, soften the jaw etc if that type of work is not suited to gaiting. 




FaceTheMusic said:


> Kayty, I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Could you explain a bit more please?


When working correctly, the horse should stretch his whole neck, starting from the wither. The muscles right in front of the wither need to be reaching forward towards the poll. 
What we see very often however, is a neck that is ridden short and upright, not stretching evenly from wither to poll, which results in a 'dip' of the neck just in front of the wither. 
The same thing occurs when a horse travels with a hollow back - you will see a dip behind the saddle over the horse's loins. 

What happens when you ride for extended periods without allowing the neck to come out from the wither, is the top half of the neck, closer to the head, will bulk up, but the base of the neck will remain quite narrow. This is a tell tale sign of a horse that is ridden backwards from the hand rather than pushed into the bridle. 
My own horse used to just love sucking back at the base of the neck and 'faking' a frame. It took me a good few months from when I first purchased him, to develop him in such a way that he wanted to stretch from the wither to poll, rather than sucking back. Now he is building up that muscle at the base of his neck, and starting to develop that 'triangle' of muscles that is desirable in a correctly ridden horse. When he gets tense, he wants to revert to that drawn back, tight frame but those moments are getting less and less.


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## ponyface (Feb 8, 2013)

i don't see anything wrong with using a belly band to help your horse learn to lift his back. a belly band, combined with an improved headset, has proven to be a useful tool in aiding to the successful development of back muscle in many horses.

kayty, could you elaborate a bit more on _how_ to encourage the horse to stretch his neck more? everything you're saying about this being necessary is absolutely true, but it would be helpful to all of us if you'd kindly explain how to get the horse to stretch evenly, push them into the bridle, etc.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Ponyface, it is something that really needs to be worked on with someone on the ground, to tell you when the horse is stretching, in order to provide you with the feel you need to work on it alone. 

In essence, you want to think about pushing the ears out by riding everything towards them. So hands forward and elastic rather than holding or pulling back. There should be no backwards pressure on the bit. 
Ride the hind legs forward, and keep the horse with your back rather than allowing it to run out, through teaching half halts, and riding thousands of transitions. Its really a very mental thing, more so than any kind of complex 'method'. Just ride the ears away from you, and your body tends to do the work for you.


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