# Smokey Buckskin or Black Bay?



## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

4 yr old AQHA black buckskin mare

This mare looks bay to me...I am not a genetics expert though. I'm just curious if it is true because her color looks exactly like my mare Jazmine's current coat...which I think is just black bay?


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I wouldn't say she was a buckskin. Some kind of bay, but I don't know what kind.
Our new kid's papers say she's a grey, but she looks like a bay roan to me so who knows.


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## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

Pics of my mare are on here. The most recent are the lower ones. I think she is just a sunbleached black bay? They just look pretty similar.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/dlizza-x-armani-svs-foaling-thread-116803/


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Smoky black can be very deceptive. It can appear to be just a plain black, or it can be really faded. All these horses are smoky black.


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## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

Wow^^^ I had no idea! Is there a test for it then?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

And Piaffe - your mare looks brown to me. Brown is notorious for changing a LOT with seasons.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

There is a test. Smoky black is a black horse with no agouti (so not bay or brown) and a cream gene.


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## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

Is that mare smokey black or smokey buckskin or is it the same?

What is the difference between black bay and brown? Lol...sorry...so many questions!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Let me get technical with you 

A black horse will have the following genotype: E_ aa crcr 

This means that the horse has at least one copy of the black extension - E. Two EE means they are homozygous for black. ee would be a red based horse, basically a chestnut. 

To be black and not bay or brown, the horse needs to be aa. This means they have no copy of the agouti gene. There are three definite types of agouti gene, and two of them have been isolated - bay (A) and brown (At). The other is wild bay (A+) and hasn't been isolated yet. The current theory leans toward a simple dominance of agouti - A+ A At. So to be wild bay, the horse only needs one copy of the A+ gene, to be "plain" bay they need an A gene and not to have an A+ gene, and to be brown they need an At gene and no other agouti gene (I am not sure this is the case, but that's personal opinion so I will try to leave it be lol). Any copy of the agouti gene means the horse is no longer "black" and is some type of bay.

Then we have the cream gene. crcr is no copies of cream, and the horse will be the colour designated by it's other genes, in this case, black. Give them a single cream, and they become Crcr, and a single dilute. This can be called lots of things - smoky black and black buckskin are the two most common, and most people that know the colour will understand if you use either of those names. If the horse has two copies of the cream gene, they are CrCr, and are a double dilute. Most people call a double dilute black a Smoky Cream, but I have heard it being referred to as a black perlino.

Questions?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Chiilaa I don't know if it capitalized what you wrtoe or what, but ee would be red based, not Ee. :lol:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Bah. Stupid forum trying to make me write proper :-(


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I hate it when it does that.


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## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for all the info! If my mare is brown and not bay will it affect the color of the foal? I understand from a black x bay cross you can only get black,chestnut,or bay....is it the same with brown? Thanks!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

In theory, you can get black, brown or chestnut. However, there is not enough evidence to stick solely to that theory, so I will add bay in there too. We are still not sure that bay is dominant to brown, although many are becoming convinced.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I don't think the people in the ad understand horse colors. They say Smokey Black (Black Buckskin) like it's the same thing. I've never heard of a "Black Buckskin"...Is it a true color, I googled it and couldn't find anything...


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I have heard it being used. As I said, it's another term for smoky black, not as common, but definitely around.


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