# *headstrong horse*



## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

sounds like he could use a learning session on how to flex his neck, and break at the poll. When you're pulling on a horse's rein, they should lower their face, not pull it up in the air.

it also sounds like he could use a good *STOP* cue.. *Not a One Rein Stop *but an actual stop cue.

there is only one way to fix a buddy sour horse-- take him away from his buddy.

TB's are absolutely *NOT* trained to pull on the reins either.


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## gambler2007 (Mar 12, 2013)

Thanks. Would you mind explaining how to train them to flex their necks and break at the poll? Yeah, we are working on the stop cue on the lunge line. As far as the buddy sourness, I can't seperate them very well, only to the point where they can see eachother, but not touch, and when I did that, they were still attatched by the hip.


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

You can work on buddy and barn sour. You can hand lead them somewhere out of eyesight. Leave one at home. Make them face away as the buddy's ride off the opposite way. Tie to a trailer instead of a hitching rail all together. There's options
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

gambler2007 said:


> Thanks. Would you mind explaining how to train them to flex their necks and break at the poll? Yeah, we are working on the stop cue on the lunge line. As far as the buddy sourness, I can't seperate them very well, only to the point where they can see eachother, but not touch, and when I did that, they were still attatched by the hip.


you just need to go back to the basics and teach him to soften up-- grab the rein, pull his neck around, keep doing so till he does it easily-- I would go from doing long pulls, to doing small bumps to soften him up, it will also make him really soft in the mouth. 

as for the flexing at the poll, when you pull the reins you want him to bend his neck not pull away from you, or throw his head up in the air-- to achieve this, I would also do the bumping technique. he will bend his head down farther and farther the more you bump him.. you don't want to be bumping straight back, but in an upward type motion.. I would get him backing up, when bumping him. This will show him you want his head down..

for the buddy sourness, he is attached at the hip to his friend, because he knows you're not the leader, and you can't make him listen to you so he does not. You need to show him you're the leader, and his attention needs to be on YOU! Get his attention, every time he calls for his buddy, I would make him do something to get him focusing on me, weather it be pulling his head in my direction, or lunging him a few circles. He needs to know You're in charge, and what You say goes, and he needs to pay attention, and Respect that. If he doesn't respect you, he doesn't see you as the leader, and won't listen to you.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

How does he lead? How soft is he normally, say, with his buddy close by? 
It sounds to me, from what you've said, like he needs to soften up a bit and you need to be clearer and firmer in order to get his attention away from getting back to his buddy and to his rider. To soften him, try working on the ground with just the lead rope and halter. He needs to respect pressure and learn to flex. 
Start by standing to his side, and pulling the lead rope towards you. Make him flex his neck so that his nose is all the way to his side. You want to get him to a point where he will follow the pressure so well that it's like he's just following your hand. Do this on each side, and then do it in the saddle- pull his nose around to your stirrup. 
Also, what kind of bit do you use on him? When you're riding him and he gets strong in your hands, try to bump him with the reins, or wiggle/ see-saw them. When you pull back and hold the pressure, it gives him the opportunity to brace against you and ignore it. But, if you're bumping or wiggling the reins, it makes it so that he can't brace or ignore you. Imagine someone trying to get your attention while you're distracted, either by a task or in deep thought- which works better, grabbing and holding your arm or poking it continuously? You don't need to yank or anything, just a consistent 'tap' on the reins, until you feel him give a bit. Then immediately let go. The problem is that his mind is so preoccupied with getting home and seeing his buddy that he's ignoring/ forgetting his rider, so you need to give him a reminder that you're there and he needs to focus on you.
What do you do when you want him to stop? How do you ask him? I would suggest that when you ask for a stop, you sit deep in the saddle. You may have to exaggerate it at first. It helps to take a deep breath and exhale when you sit. If he doesn't stop right away, then you use a voice queue ("whoa") and then if even that doesn't work, use your reins. See-saw them to get him to soften a bit if he's bracing, and then turn him/ flex his neck to the side in a one-rein stop.


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## Laffeetaffee (Dec 5, 2012)

I used to (partially) own a horse who did the same thing. Sadly, I was very young and didn't know how to properly ride, I made her iron-mouthed and she gave me iron-hands, I've ruined a lot of horses since then because I would grip the reins so hard.

Often when people have horses who become hard-mouthed, their first option is to go for a stronger bit like a tom thumb or a twisted snaffle. Gain leverage so you can add more pressure without having to wear out your own hands. But the best way to fix the problem is to go back to the basics and teach the horse at what pressure you want them to react. Does it take 30 pounds of pressure to slow down, or does it just take picking up slack in the reins? If you've been asking every time to slow down by immediately using 30 pounds of pressure, then that's what you've taught the horse to respond at.

I retrained an iron-mouthed horse first by doing lateral flexion and then teaching him that when I pick up slack on the reins, he needs to drop his nose and back (and this was a very pushy, dominant horse that would toss his head to any kind of pressure). When you teach lateral flexion, timing is absolutely crucial. You have to pick up on the rein just enough to take the slack out, and when he turns his head, drop the rein before he stops turning it, you have to be lightning fast for him to understand that turning is what gets the pressure released. If you drop it as he stops turning, you could actually be teaching him to not turn his head to the pressure (LFMF).

When you can pick up on the rein and have him bend his head all the way to his stomach, then you can practice backing him up by just taking the slack out of both reins. The way I teach this is by the CA method: give the hindquarter yield and turn him round and round and round, and when you feel him turning smoothly with good momentum, pick up on the reins just enough to take the slack out and stop the hindquarter yield. If he backs up even a step, let go and pet him. Keep practicing that until you can back him up 4 or 5 steps, then just pick up on the reins and see if he will back up to that. If I could train my horse to do it, you can definitely train yours.

Also, a kind of emergency way of slowing down your horse if you're riding him and he's just not slowing down for you, pick up on one rein and just turn him in a circle. It's very difficult for horses to go very fast if they're going in a circle, so you can teach him what speed is comfortable by turning him in a circle whenever he goes too fast, that way you're not constantly pulling him back.


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## Laffeetaffee (Dec 5, 2012)

Sorry just realized you probably don't know how to give the hindquarter yield XD but in case you don't, yielding just means they move that body-part away from you. So if you ask for a hindquarter yield, this means when you tap your whip in the air at their hip, they would rotate their hindquarters away but keep their front feet relatively in the same spot. The way I teach hindquarter yield is I stand at the horse's shoulder and look sideways at the horse's hip while tapping the air with the whip. If the horse doesn't move, then I tap the horse's hip. As soon as the horse takes a step sideways, I stop and back off. Then look sideways and tap again. When the horse can move their hindquarters around just by tapping the air, then I practice by just looking sideways at the horse's hip to move their hind end over.

The reason this works well with teaching the horse to back up is because it gets the horse in "moving" mode, and also gets them soft. If you're have to really push the horse around into the yield, then you're also going to have to push them back when you ask for the backup. But if they're turning softly and willingly with a lot of energy, then when you pick up on the reins, the horse will more easily follow them backward.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi & welcome!

Of course I understand totally why you feel the need to keep those reins tight, but I don't think this is helping - it is desensitising him to the pressure from the bit & 'nagging' him. So, agree with others that I'd take him back to the basics & teach him to yield laterally. Especially Laffee. I think it's very important to *teach* them to yield, before just trying to make it happen - you're more likely to get into a fight & create more resistance, or unbalance the horse if you just try to reef their head around, especially when it sounds like he maybe hasn't learned to yield to pressure well.

*I also think it's important to rule out/treat physical probs that could very well be contributing - teeth, bit, back, saddle, feet... - before working on the training.

In teaching him to yield, I'd stick to a halter, for now at least, especially as he's gained a bad attitude about the bit. After you've taught him to yield well in all ways, including his head laterally to the rein & hindquarters over, then I'd start teaching him in the saddle, first at a stand still, then a walk, etc. 

Get so you can walk on a loose rein & reach for one rein to slow him, bending to a stop instead of pulling two reins. Remember to reinforce - quit the pressure - as soon as he responds & only gradually ask for more/quicker, etc. When you first start doing this in a trot & canter, I'd start out in an enclosed area, such as an arena, where you don't have to worry about him running away with you, so you don't feel the need to hang on the reins, but you can just go with it & ask for a bend & be confident to release the instant he slows - so reinforce & teach him that's what works.

Re the 'buddy sour' business, I think one step at a time & I'd be getting him going well at home before taking him out, but doing this should also help build your relationship & his trust & respect in you, so he's happier to go out with you too.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Racehorses are trained to lean into the pressure, and go faster when pressure is applied.

Same with TWH show horses for that matter.

You don't need to be galloping/cantering or anything until this horse is retrained from what I read.

Get someone there to help you, that is going to be best.


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## gambler2007 (Mar 12, 2013)

soenjer55 said:


> How does he lead? How soft is he normally, say, with his buddy close by?
> It sounds to me, from what you've said, like he needs to soften up a bit and you need to be clearer and firmer in order to get his attention away from getting back to his buddy and to his rider. To soften him, try working on the ground with just the lead rope and halter. He needs to respect pressure and learn to flex.
> Start by standing to his side, and pulling the lead rope towards you. Make him flex his neck so that his nose is all the way to his side. You want to get him to a point where he will follow the pressure so well that it's like he's just following your hand. Do this on each side, and then do it in the saddle- pull his nose around to your stirrup.
> Also, what kind of bit do you use on him? When you're riding him and he gets strong in your hands, try to bump him with the reins, or wiggle/ see-saw them. When you pull back and hold the pressure, it gives him the opportunity to brace against you and ignore it. But, if you're bumping or wiggling the reins, it makes it so that he can't brace or ignore you. Imagine someone trying to get your attention while you're distracted, either by a task or in deep thought- which works better, grabbing and holding your arm or poking it continuously? You don't need to yank or anything, just a consistent 'tap' on the reins, until you feel him give a bit. Then immediately let go. The problem is that his mind is so preoccupied with getting home and seeing his buddy that he's ignoring/ forgetting his rider, so you need to give him a reminder that you're there and he needs to focus on you.
> What do you do when you want him to stop? How do you ask him? I would suggest that when you ask for a stop, you sit deep in the saddle. You may have to exaggerate it at first. It helps to take a deep breath and exhale when you sit. If he doesn't stop right away, then you use a voice queue ("whoa") and then if even that doesn't work, use your reins. See-saw them to get him to soften a bit if he's bracing, and then turn him/ flex his neck to the side in a one-rein stop.


We have been working on flexing, but he doesn't know how to soften his mouth or react to pressure well. When I see-saw the reins to get him to stop, it still takes an extremely long time to slow down. Thnk you though, it really helped me understand!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Palomine said:


> Racehorses are trained to lean into the pressure, and go faster when pressure is applied.


:? WT?? Why do they do that?? Not the ones I used to ride - they were at least well trained in the basics. & had a **** sight 'softer' mouths than most ponyclub mounts I've worked with!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

gambler2007 said:


> We have been working on flexing, but he doesn't know how to soften his mouth or react to pressure well. When I see-saw the reins to get him to stop, it still takes an extremely long time to slow down. Thnk you though, it really helped me understand!


PLEASE DON'T 'see saw' on his mouth! TEACH him to respond rather than try to force the issue by creating pain.


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## gambler2007 (Mar 12, 2013)

loosie said:


> PLEASE DON'T 'see saw' on his mouth! TEACH him to respond rather than try to force the issue by creating pain.


I normally woudnt, but we were cantering on the trails and I had to stop him before we reached the turn. It was a danger to both of us and I needed to stop. And I don't know what you're implying, but I would never force him to stop through pain. I love my horse...but sometimes you need to get your horse to listen to you. And it doesn't mean I'm yanking on his mouth so hard he throws up his head-its not hard and its quick. it just gets them to listen to you. 

They train them to put pressure back on the reins so they stretch out their necks and that can help them win.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

gambler2007 said:


> I normally woudnt, but we were cantering on the trails and I had to stop him before we reached the turn. It was a danger to both of us and I needed to stop. And I don't know what you're implying, but I would never force him to stop through pain.


Using a lot of force on the reins(if your hands hurt, you can bet his sensitive mouth sure does) & see sawing is indeed causing him pain. Even relatively light pressure applied in certain ways(such as pulling on 2 reins with a single jointed snaffle for eg) can cause a lot of discomfort/pain. It's important to understand that. 

I'm well aware that sometimes, in cases of emergency & such, it may be the necessary option - & it's good to hear you don't see saw generally(some do & have been taught to do this on 'hard mouthed' horses!:-x). I think it's far better - as well as more effective - not to get into these situations if possible until you've trained the horse to respond to *soft* cues. Eg. I wouldn't be cantering at all until he's learned the basics & wouldn't be cantering out in the open until he's learned to do it with soft control in a controlled area.


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## gambler2007 (Mar 12, 2013)

loosie said:


> Using a lot of force on the reins(if your hands hurt, you can bet his sensitive mouth sure does) & see sawing is indeed causing him pain. Even relatively light pressure applied in certain ways(such as pulling on 2 reins with a single jointed snaffle for eg) can cause a lot of discomfort/pain. It's important to understand that.
> 
> I'm well aware that sometimes, in cases of emergency & such, it may be the necessary option - & it's good to hear you don't see saw generally(some do & have been taught to do this on 'hard mouthed' horses!:-x). I think it's far better - as well as more effective - not to get into these situations if possible until you've trained the horse to respond to *soft* cues. Eg. I wouldn't be cantering at all until he's learned the basics & wouldn't be cantering out in the open until he's learned to do it with soft control in a controlled area.


I understand about their sensitive mouths. My trainer has been working with me and him a little, and I know not to yank on their mouths, but if I have to see saw or pull on the reins, I do it quickly and not hard, it will not bring them a lot of pain. I do a pull and release, not a continuous yank, and I'm asking for help on how to improve in the future in being less headstrong. As for the trails, he is a trail horse, and we have ridden him on trails before, and i know if i should canter him or not. It wasnt bad either, just took too long to stop him. So instead of telling me i shouldnt do it, tell me to do a one rein stop, for example. Thanks.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

gambler2007 said:


> If you do it quickly and not hard, it will not bring them a lot of pain.


That is different to getting upset by me 'implying' you were causing ANY pain. :wink:



> So instead of telling me i shouldnt do it, tell me to do a one rein stop, for example. Thanks.


Sounds like perhaps you didn't read my original reply, as that is precisely what I suggested.:wink: IMO it's helpful to people to tell them what, IME they should avoid doing, as well as...

"I'd take him back to the basics & teach him to yield laterally. ...
TEACH him to respond rather than try to force....
I think it's far better - as well as more effective - not to get into these situations if possible until you've trained the horse to respond to *soft* cues."

I disagree with you that just because you want him to be a trail horse & he's already been taken on trails means you should just keep doing this & shouldn't go back to the basics with him.


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## gambler2007 (Mar 12, 2013)

loosie said:


> I disagree with you that just because you want him to be a trail horse & he's already been taken on trails means you should just keep doing this & shouldn't go back to the basics with him.


I do not want him to be a trail horse, never said that! I will go back to basics, I'm just distracted with the endless amount of work I have to do with him haha  

We rode him on some serious trails at a walk trot and he was fine, so if you never try you won't know!


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