# Stallion prospect conformation critique



## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

This is a 3yr old AQHA stallion prospect, cutting/working cowhorse bloodlines. I would appreciate some opinions. He has an old injury on his left front fetlock joint - thus the swelling there.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

He looks a bit tied in at the knee and maybe back at the knee. The point of his croup is a bit high and the croup a bit steep. His hocks are quite far off the ground and his hind leg is a bit over straight. His pasterns in front appear very upright. Has he thrown his left hind shoe? That heel looks very short! 

What is his breeding? 

From his appearance here I would tend to geld him.. but lets see his pedigree and lets hear what your plans are. If he had lower hocks I would see if he had cow for cutting.. but those hocks are a bit high for stallion material success for that. 

What is the nature of his old fetlock joint injury? If he is likely to lame up on that and cannot be proven as a result, then he should be gelded. jmo


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## Patty Stiller (Aug 7, 2012)

I saw the same faults as Elana. Although he is attractive overall, he is tied in behind the knees. As well he is very upright in all 4 pasterns and that COULD be nutritional but an also be genetic and since there is no way to tell it is also a 'negative' to consider. I like his shoulder and heart girth but his neck and throat latch are thick (not "stallion" thick, but just thick) and could affect his "catty" ability when working cows. 

So although he is pretty, and obviously shows his cow horse breeding, I feel that ANY leg fault should he heavily considered .I believe he would make a tremendous gelding but should not be a stallion.


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## MyBrandy (Jan 19, 2011)

Agreed with what others said here.. He does have a very "delicious" shoulder


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Thank you for your replies! Unfortunately it is not my decision to geld him. 

He has a couple of good things about him: 

- bloodlines (sire One Time Pepto, dam a world champion roping horse by Shining Spark, out of a daughter of Zan Parr Bar, which makes him a grandson of Peptoboonsmal and Shining Spark, with Peppy San Badger, Smart Little Lena, Geniune Doc and Zan Parr Bar in the next generation), 

- disposition (very friendly, easy going, smart horse) and, last but not least, 

- talent (he was in cutting training for about 6 month, very cowy, quick, a prospect for the show ring for sure, but held back by the old leg injury).

No horse is perfect, question is if he will make a good breeding stud despite his conformational imperfections? I, personal, do not see that he is back in the knee, everything else I do agree, and I do not like his hooves at all (steep and narrow). I would chose mares that do counter his faults and still give it a try. Or would that be all wrong?
Attached another picture. Is he really back in the knee (I am sure willing to learn!)?


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Can he prove himself, or is the injury going to hold him back?

I would pass on breeding to him, he's cute. But if he can't preform, and with his faults he doesn't really add anything to the gene pool.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i like him. this last photo does not look back at the knee.

I like him a lot. I am just not seeing faults except the upright pastern.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Very upright pasterns?? Are we all looking at the same horse? Slightly, maybe. Not very.
Not reaally seeing him tied in behind the knee either. 

I wouldn't mind seeing a little more slope to his hocks and a more level top line but other then that, I like him. Great shoulder, nice hip, good neck, nice short cannons, and a pretty head - most Peptoboonsmals are pretty! 

I just spent the weekend at the Canadian Supreme watching a lot of closely bred horses perform amazing in cutting, reining, and working. He has a rock solid pedigree and if he gets back into training, I see no reason why he couldn't show and produce.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

In the last picture, I am seeing tied in at the knee, but nice hocks. Pretty steep croup however, his overall confo doesn't say stallion material to me as he is not a stallion I would bred my mare to.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

He got his steep croup from daddy. I had to google him.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

MsBHavin said:


> He got his steep croup from daddy. I had to google him.


One Time Pepto has a too steep croup? No way ... :wink: - This is exactly what I am getting at: perfect conformation does not necessarily make a perfect horse. Of course, he should not have major conformation faults. 

This stud cann not be proven due to the injury. He is sound when lightly used, but does get lame when ridden hard, and cutting is very hard on horses. Both trainers (good trainers who compete high and train high level horses) do agree: if not for the unsoundness he would compete successful.

I sure appreciate all the input. As I said: not my decision to geld him, and I am somewhat torn. I like his disposition and athletism, I like his overall looks, but I also see a few conformational flaws. But, honestly: how many sucessful breeding studs are conformational perfect?


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

How exactly did he get injured?

Is he not your horse, that you could decide to geld?


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I like him. I don't see glaring faults. He's nicely put together and has a nice pedigree.

No horse is perfect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

No horse is perfect. Look at Halter horses these days. 
I think he's proven he is athletic and can work and do the job. Gelding certainly will not hurt him but I see no reason why he can't sire show prospects. I've seen alot worse out there with their gonads still attached.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

No horse is perfect. However if he got injured while in training because he can not hold up to training, the next generation certainly does NOT need that.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

MsBHavin said:


> How exactly did he get injured?
> 
> Is he not your horse, that you could decide to geld?


He got injurd in a pasture accident, not in training. There was hope that we would still hold up in training, when it showed that he did not stay sound he had surgery, didn't help, though.

I work for the ranchers who own him. I do advrtise and sell their foals, so I am interested in good breeding, because I want to be able to honestly say: "I like the sire, I like the dam, the foal would be a horse I would use myself".
I like this stallion, but would like to intervene with his owners which mares to breed to him to counter flaws. For example: I would not want to breed a mare to him that has narrow hooves or is cow hocked. Steep croup not either. I will also, after the input here, look for thick throat latches, high hocks and somewhat steep pasterns (he is due for a ferrier in the pictures). Luckily most of the broodmares have big feet and very correct hind legs.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I like him for a cowhorse or ranch stud. I really like his front end. His legs look fine to me. I would like him better if he had a stronger hind end with lower hocks. His hind end is a little narrow and spindly for me, but my mares are big and thick behind. He would cross perfectly on my mares. 

I knew he was a Peptoboonsmal when I saw the first picture of him. I raised several foals sired by Mecum Blue (3/4 brother to Peptoboonsmal). Loved 'em. 

A ranch stud does not need a record. He needs a good mind and be stout enough to sire foals that can ride and work all day and look nice enough to sell the ones you don't ride. Record means nothing at all. Good breeding, good mind and ability are everything. No one will ever buy his foals to go to the cutting pen or any competition, anyway. 

I like 'mule footed' horses. They stay sound and are very 'quick footed'. I am curious why he is shod if he is crippled? I would get the shoes off of him and keep his toes short and rounded up to put less strain on the injured fetlock if he were mine. 

Are they going to hand breed or pasture breed him? Are their mares ranch bred or cutting bred? He will cross best on ranch bred mares.

Also, why would anyone suggest gelding a crippled horse? All you have then is a $300.00 killer. That would be a dumb move by about anyone that would own him.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

That horse would be good ranch horse sire. Ranchers need horses that can stand up to riding all day , drag a calf , and rope off. Not spin in circles or slide 10 feet to a stop. what is good in a show horse is not always practical on a working ranch.
I have a of poco bueno bred mare I would breed to him.
If he cannot be ridden then gelding him would render him useless. Might as well euthanize him.
There is a difference between a working horse and a show horse. That horse is built to work. Any rancher could see that. Shalom


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Cherie said:


> A ranch stud does not need a record. He needs a good mind and be stout enough to sire foals that can ride and work all day and look nice enough to sell the ones you don't ride. Record means nothing at all. Good breeding, good mind and ability are everything. No one will ever buy his foals to go to the cutting pen or any competition, anyway.
> 
> I like 'mule footed' horses. They stay sound and are very 'quick footed'. I am curious why he is shod if he is crippled? I would get the shoes off of him and keep his toes short and rounded up to put less strain on the injured fetlock if he were mine.
> 
> ...


I took the pictures when he came from the trainer, he still had shoes on.

I am not sure yet how he will be breeding. He belongs to a partnership, one partner would rather AI, the other one would prefer pasture breeding. Neither one usually hand breeds. If they collect semen he will probably be available for outside mares as well. 

Also the choice of mares is not decided. One partner wants to breed only the "good" mares, and he talks pedigree, which would mean high in blood with Peppy San Badger and Doc Olena. He thinks that the offspring would hit the cutting pens and by getting as much cutting blood in the foals as possible he wants to get a progeny record on the stud. But I do agree, somewhat, that nobody who is serious about cutting will buy his offspring, making this move pretty much useless.
The other partner would like to see him on more foundation bred ranch mares, so would I, making the foals better marketable in our area (ranching country, people are looking for ranch, roping, and trail horses that could do a bit team penning as well, not so much for blue-blood cutters).

I am sure you didn't mean it that way, but your notion about gelding a crippled horse sounded a bit like "if he can not be used as a gelding because he is crippled then he should be used for breeding". To make that clear: he was in training with the intention to have him make a name for himself for breeding purposes. The decision to use him as a stud was already made unless he would have shown in training that he was no-good. He performed exceptionally well, just didn't stay sound due to the old injury caused by a pasture accident (I am sorry to repeat myself, this just if somebody overread this before  )


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I'd try both sides and see what he throws. I really like him, his color don't hurt either.

If it doesn't work out I'll take the "culls". 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

The owners of this stallion appear to know what they are doing. They have planned his future and what mares he would cross well with.
I think he could sire some of those geldings you see sold at auction as finished ranch horses. They go for very good prices and are in demand.
For the life of me I cant fathom how some can see such glaring flaws from the first picture. The second picture only confirmed my doubts.
As someone posted earlier no horse is perfect. A lot of people have commented on how common Hollywood Jack or Gunner appeared. They both had conformation flaws. Not breeding to either of those stallions would have been a huge mistake.
A stallion is only as good as his offspring prove him to be. Shalom


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

How much money did his mother earn? If she did not earn $100,000.00 +, he is pretty useless as a stud for the cutting pen. If she earned over $100,000.00, you might get serious cutters to breed mares to him that have won a lot of money. Breed them for free for serious cutters that are going to put them in training, and there is an outside chance that he could prove himself, but it is remote. 

It takes other people's money to prove a stallion. Each foal costs $25,000.00 or more in training alone to get to the show pen. Many cutters have $35,000.00 to $40,000.00 plus the cost of the prospect in a show-ready cutting horse. You have to do it with other people's money and they do not put that kind of money in prospects sired by horses without a big-time show record. A stud used to have to win $100,000.00 to be taken seriously by the industry. Now, one has to win 2 or 3 times that much to get a look. 

A stallion owner would have to have those $100,000.00 + mares themselves to even get one of the top trainers to take a prospect and put 'real' training in them. Otherwise, the barn help rides all of the 'cheap' prospects they take which they have to have to keep the training operation running while they ride the Highbrow Cats and the One Time Peptos themselves. 

The industry has changed so much the last few years with ETs, that there is now a small VERY SELECT TOP END and the 'middle' type of prospects has joined the huge bunch of bottom prospects that do not bring the price of raising one and often times do not even bring the stud fee back.

Stallion have done the same thing. The few 'select' high end studs sire half or more of the prospects that sell at the NCHA Sales. They sire most of the prospects that go to well-known successful trainers. This is why we got out of cutting horse breeding and went back to raising ranch horses.

As for breeding styles: Even if you pasture breed, you should collect him and AI a few mares to teach him how to collect. A LOT of pasture studs will not hand-breed at all and are all but impossible (or are impossible) to collect. I tried to collect a pasture stud several years ago to breed to a crippled mare and never got it done. It would also be to your advantage to do a few semen evaluations to know exactly how good his semen is.

I need to look up the name of a horse we raised that sold to a couple in Idaho or Montana. I know she placed in several of the Futurities there and in Canada and won quite a bit of money. She was by Mecum Blue out of a Freckles Merada mare.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Over all I like him. I agree that he would likely sire some good ranch horses, especially out of some foundation bred mares.

I knew two stallions that were retired due to injury. one was my BO's old stallion, suffered an injury in the pasture as a yearling. They tried to start him for the track, but he wouldn't stay sound. great conformation, but the old tendon injury wouldn't hold up. He sired several race horses that were successful, his son is on the track currently. He also sired a Andalusian cross that went on to be a successful dressage horse, a anglo arab and appendix that did very well in cross country, and finally was sold to a breeder of percheron crosses that produced some stunning draft crosses that excelled in a number of disciplines. All of them were well built, lovely movers and above all, sane. That stallion made a good contribution, it would have been a shame to euthanize him at 2.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

The thing to remember on any conformation critique is we are looking at a 3 dimensional thing on a 2 dimensional surface! A LOT can not be seen. Always remember that. 

The other thing to remember is when asked an opinion, considering the current horse market (or lack of a market) most responsible horse ppl would error on the side of cutting a horse over not cutting him. Last I know there were something like just under two mares registered for every stallion registered in the AQHA. 

That ratio may be different today.. but it is telling. Most male horses should be cut. 

I would never ever ever base a decision such as cutting a horse from a photo placed on an internet forum. 

I will critique a horse here because it is entertaining to do so. Opinions are worth what you pay...


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Elana said:


> I will critique a horse here because it is entertaining to do so. Opinions are worth what you pay...


And that is exactly what I was looking for. I sure appreciate all input, negativ or positiv, everybody is entiteled to an opinion, and when I put the pictures on I was prepared to read a lot of negative critique - actually we did better than I expected 

We stand four stallions (counting the roan), and I wouldn't even dare to put pictures on of one of them. Now, interestingly, that (no-picture) one is not used in the program any more because I said so (at the end I am the one who has to sell the colts). BUT - I have so many inquieries of people who bought his foals in the last years that I will ask the rancher to breed him again. Go figure. We are talking good using horses here, though, not show horses.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

BlueSpark said:


> I knew two stallions that were retired due to injury.


Frenchmans Guy (every barrel racer will know this name) would have never made it to the breeding barn if he would not have lost an eye as a yearling. He was supposed to run barrels - as a gelding. He still was started on barrels, but with only one eye he didn't stand a chance. Yet he was good - and they bred him. And see what a name he has earned himself! 
Now, this, of course, is a success story like a lottery win. And it sure helped that Meyers already had a reputation for producing good barrel horses. I don't expect our stud to do that well, but I am looking forward to nice ranch horses with a good handle.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Poor horse. The ONLY OTHER mare that I ever liked had been worked way too hard when she was young. By the time I bought her, as a 12yo, her front legs were going. It's hard the hear the words "old injury" said about a 3yo.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The reason there are so many stallions registered is that most are gelded after they are registered and their papers are never changed. Unless they are being shown or raced, most people do not bother with changing papers over and many geldings are never even transferred. Most of the geldings, even 10 yr olds and up, that run through auctions still have registration papers that call them stallions. This is particularly true of ranch bred horses. 

I have probably 10 geldings that I raised that are over 2 years old and all are still registered as stallions. If I sell them, the new owner can just check the box on the top of the transfer that asks if the horse is still a stallion. I don't bother having any of them changed since I no longer show, so the official records still show them all as stallions.


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