# The parelli competition team..



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I found this interesting.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Who do they compete against. The black horse that is spinning is doing an awful job of it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Who do they compete against. The black horse that is spinning is doing an awful job of it.


You are being too kind. The only horse in the western part who was 1/2 way decent was the last one and I think that was sailing smart. The others where well lets just say if that is keeping it natural I will stick with what I am doing.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> Who do they compete against. The black horse that is spinning is doing an awful job of it.


 
I'll say

The first horse (the dressage one) didn't appear (to me) to be working from behind.
Edit: actually none of te dressage horses moved from behind.

The *first/black* reining horse looked to be fighting the bit a lot, there was a lot of 'chomping' going on and they didnt look at all comfortable.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I don't want to start an argument or for followers to become defensive, but that wasn't very impressive especially if that is their "competition team". 

(Just a side note, it's interesting that they are using bits - and double reins on the first one.)


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## horseluver250 (Oct 28, 2009)

Haha I agree about the aweful spins. The cutting horse is just all over the place. And the first dressage rider's hands are all over the place! 
I don't understand what these riders have to do with parelli? And I agree that this isn't a very good representation for a competition team.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

horseluver250 said:


> Haha I agree about the aweful spins. The cutting horse is just all over the place. And the first dressage rider's hands are all over the place!
> I don't understand what these riders have to do with parelli? And I agree that this isn't a very good representation for a competition team.


I thought the one riding the crappy black horse was "Pat Parelli" am I wrong? :-|


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> I don't want to start an argument or for followers to become defensive, but that wasn't very impressive especially if that is their "competition team".
> 
> (Just a side note, it's interesting that they are using bits - and double reins on the first one.)


That was my thought also.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

horseluver250 said:


> I don't understand what these riders have to do with parelli? And I agree that this isn't a very good representation for a competition team.


What is has to do with Parelli is that the first western horse cutting the bald face was Pat.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

FlyinSoLow said:


> I thought the one riding the crappy black horse was "Pat Parelli" am I wrong? :-|


NO I believe you are correct. If you go right to Youtube you will see that these clips are from the Parelli camp.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

FlyinSoLow said:


> I thought the one riding the crappy black horse was "Pat Parelli" am I wrong? :-|


 
That's what I thought but I wasn't sure.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

The only thing I find confusing is the last words on the video. "Keep it Narural". I just did not see anything narural in any part of it.

The first "dressage" rider is very very bad. The rider's seat position is behind the balance plumb line and is in fact hindering the horse. The hands are all over the place and didn't help the picture any.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I wasn't going to comment on the dressage rider but I thought it looked awfull also. The rider was leaned way back and just looked floppy.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Is this a lower level team?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Parelli team using bits? What a shame! :lol:

A question to dressage people (no sarcasm, just curious). Are you suppose to ride with pointed out toes in dressage kicking horse non-stop? I always thought the legs should be quiet for the most time unless you give a cue, but I took couple lessons from dressage (hm-hm) trainer, and she was keep saying I have to kick horse non-stop in dressage. I stopped taking lessons with her for number of reasons (kicking was one of them plus some other).


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> NO I believe you are correct. If you go right to Youtube you will see that these clips are from the Parelli camp.


 
Well, at least he can jump a picnic table... can't ride worth a darn, but he can jump that picnic table in his promotional thingies over and over again....


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Spyder said:


> The only thing I find confusing is the last words on the video. "Keep it Narural". I just did not see anything narural in any part of it.
> 
> The first "dressage" rider is very very bad. The rider's seat position is behind the balance plumb line and is in fact hindering the horse. The hands are all over the place and didn't help the picture any.


 
Omigosh I am so glad you commented on that because I was really afraid for dressage riders everywhere...

As for these guys, I think you are right it's a camp. Not really the "team".


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Where are the Parelli followers now? I would like to hear the other side of the argument.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

FlyinSoLow said:


> Well, at least he can jump a picnic table... can't ride worth a darn, but he can jump that picnic table in his promotional thingies over and over again....


Oh that is good. Can I use that quote at some point.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Where are the Parelli followers now? I would like to hear the other side of the argument.


I am not sure there is one.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> Where are the Parelli followers now? I would like to hear the other side of the argument.


Argue? What is there to Argue? I think the video speaks for itself.


If they were people in training, getting lessons, and actually trying to improve... ok I would not comment on it becuase imo if your trying (and paying for professional help) you should not be criticized in any form...

But these people are not only claiming to be professionals they are taking a lot of people's money in the process. :-|


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

nrhareiner said:


> Oh that is good. Can I use that quote at some point.


Sure, go ahead...  ****


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Wow. . .the "dressage" was just. . .wow. . .:shock:

Exactly what are they trying to prove about the superiority of PP's training system? I didn't see anything particularly inspirational in that video, and certainly nothing I would want to want to aspire to.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

That may be why the OP posted. She was at one time very heavily involved in Parelli and has recently begun to explore more traditional methods.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

FlyinSoLow said:


> But these people are not only claiming to be professionals they are taking a lot of people's money in the process. :-|


I would even venture to guess they are "level 3 professionals?"

I wonder what they charge.............................


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Jolly Badger said:


> I didn't see anything particularly inspirational in that video, and certainly nothing I would want to want to aspire to.


As I already commented the lack of insperation is most likely due to the fact that there was no repeated picnic table leaping going on :lol:.
Totally being sarcastic by the way.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Well if there was a competition for jumping picnic tables bare back PP would win as he in the only one that would actually think that was a good idea.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> Where are the Parelli followers now? I would like to hear the other side of the argument.


It's not the end of the day yet. Just be patient!


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I was VERY disappointed with this video. 

Especially with the first rider... I actually didnt watch teh full video till AFTER I posted.. I saw the first rider and im like hmm I kinda want to share this.

Very poor riders IMO! That actually goes for pat as well...at least in this video.


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## Toymanator (Jul 31, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> It's not the end of the day yet. Just be patient!


Its not NATURAL for them to come out this early, they are busy in the backyard playing catch with their horses... 

I will have to agree with everyone those spins looked terrible. And the cutting was nothing special.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Aside from the dressage flaws, I was very disappointed with the cutting and reining. I can understand that the dressage may have been a camp show but that was PP doing the Western segments and they were awful.

Was this put out by the Parelli people?


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## Hali (Jun 17, 2009)

Honestly, I couldn't get past the first dressage rider. I cringed for that horse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

iridehorses said:


> Aside from the dressage flaws, I was very disappointed with the cutting and reining. I can understand that the dressage may have been a camp show but that was PP doing the Western segments and they were awful.
> 
> Was this put out by the Parelli people?


Yes it looks like it was. If you click on the video in the OP it will take you to Youtube and it is there deal it looks like. Looks like it is a new one too.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Here is a link to some more.

YouTube - ParelliTube's Channel


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

They have a good collection of videos on there though.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Aww, the video was removed by the user. Shame I won't be able to see it!


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I think its cause it was re uploaded here you go:


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Yikes, thats some scary stuff. I know I've said it before, but I notice some extremely similar patterns with horses trained with the Parelli system. I have a horse that was trained by a Parelli trainer (he was a rescue, would never actually go out and buy one) and it is a constant struggle to try to put his body back together. They all have that long, tubular middle, shuffley hind legs, and heavy front ends. I could be wrong, but it looks like more to me than horses that are not trained in self carriage, it looks like there is some similar practice that is pushing these horses into these patterns, its all just way too common, I can pretty much peg a Parelli horse from a mile away. I personally wasn't impressed at all.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I actually said "god awful" out loud. And said "what is that person DOING?!" to the first dressage rider. I know absolutely nothing about dressage, but in general all of the riding was just hideous. 

Reminded me of a video I saw (also posted here) of a jumper competing at a national level of a rider who would literally come out of the saddle and then crash back onto her horse after each jump.


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## Hali (Jun 17, 2009)

FYI, the first rider, Lauren, is paralyzed from the waist down.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I knew that, about the first rider, But thats no excuse for what her hands are doing...

My uncles totally paralized on one side.. but he can use his other side perfectly fine. So I dont see it as much of an excuse.. but idk just MHO.

I just REALLY wasnt impressed by this video :\ Its good that they were having fun but idk still not the type of performance I was hoping to see.


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## Hali (Jun 17, 2009)

I agree with you.

I just felt kinda bad for slamming her riding lol.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Yeah I mean I understood the flopping around. I was just noticing a bit more then just her seat. But I give her credit for doing something she loves even with her disablity


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## Hali (Jun 17, 2009)

Totally!

Now I'm curious to see more paraequestrian dressage...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Hali said:


> FYI, the first rider, Lauren, is paralyzed from the waist down.


Thank you. I saw the name and immediately recognized her. Her horse is fantastic! She's a great rider for her disabilities. 
Lauren Barwick Pictures - Paralympics Day 4 - Equestrian - Zimbio
http://www.ridingforgold.com/intro.html

She uses the whips (you can see the two of them) in place of leg aids... I would imagine that the use whips for their rein *and* leg aids is difficult. 
While I agree the video wasn't great, I'm actually a little bit disappointed with this thread... and you all know I am not a fan of Parelli.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I simply said I was disappointed with there performance in this video. I was excited when I saw the video was out and I think I expected to much. 

But Like I said I give her credit for doing something she loves even with her disablity  Shes got a lot of guts. I actually didnt know about the whips at all so I take what I said back


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Hali said:


> FYI, the first rider, Lauren, is paralyzed from the waist down.


 
That may be and good for them trying but I have seen riders at the para olympics just as disabled riding much much better.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

She actually won Gold at the 2008 paralympics. 'Speechless' Barwick wins equestrian gold


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

While I understand that the first rider is paralyzed from the waist down and I fully understand the disadvantage she has I still don't understand why the dressage horses look so heavy and not moving off their hind end better.
I give Lauren props for even attempting to ride, let alone doing as well as she does... 

...but that wasn't my concern; Pat Parelli's horrible riding is! I mean, he is the professional, and imo he was the worst.

edit to add: I did not know Lauren was paralyzed btw  I must say I'm sure this is not the best video to judge her skills or her horse on...


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## Jubilee (Dec 15, 2008)

I'm not a Parelli fan, I'm going to say that right from the start. I gave Parelli's methods a fair trial and have decided that it's not for me or my horses and I have found it to not be the most effective. There is a lot I don't agree with with Parelli. 

With that said, I am kind of disappointed with this thread post. I hate it when I see everyone jumping on the "lets-criticize-Parelli" bandwagon. Because it could just as easily be the "lets-criticize-Anderson" bandwagon or any other trainer! Different methods work for different riders and different horses. It all depends on what you want to get out of the experience. I admit that those performances made me cringe, but at least they were getting out there and trying to show and not waving their carrot sticks at non-Parelli's and telling them to rid the bits and spurs.

I'm just saying, we could point fingers for the rest of our lives. In the meantime, I've got horses to train. See ya.

Jubilee


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Jubilee said:


> Different methods work for different riders and different horses.


I agree, and whatever gets you out there and riding is awsome... 

but I'm not bashing the method, I'm bashing his riding in that video... oh and the picnic table jumping haha :lol: but that was just for kicks and giggles.

btw I used to be a Parelli crazy kid. In fact I was a Natural Horsemanship crazy kid, a part of me still is. I use my rope halter, I do a lot of ground work to prepare my horse for riding and I like to do it to warm up in the cold before a ride too! 

I actually lost most of my respect for these trainers becuase a) they almost all say you can only use one method with your horse and thats a bunch of bull and b) people idolize them which is wrong. But it just doesn't help that they are sitting there acting all that signing autographs.... claiming to be the best.

Take what you can from everyone you meet, and leave what you can't use or what you find does not fit your morals.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

This really wasnt suppose to be a criticize parelli post - Im some what of a parelli student. Not heavily but I do do some parelli with my horses. 

I put this out just to share.


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## Jubilee (Dec 15, 2008)

I know that you were just sharing, this was not meant to be a flame fest. SO I'm not getting after you at all. Just saying people need to think more before posting. There are a lot of Parelli fans on here. I may not be a fan of Parelli, but I'm not against him or his methods either. It's just not my tea. I personally think that it all boils down to style and personality, because face it, almost all Natural Horsemanship methods are the same, it's just about who you like to have teach it to you.

Jubilee


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Jubilee said:


> I'm not a Parelli fan, I'm going to say that right from the start. I gave Parelli's methods a fair trial and have decided that it's not for me or my horses and I have found it to not be the most effective. There is a lot I don't agree with with Parelli.
> 
> With that said, I am kind of disappointed with this thread post. I hate it when I see everyone jumping on the "lets-criticize-Parelli" bandwagon. Because it could just as easily be the "lets-criticize-Anderson" bandwagon or any other trainer! Different methods work for different riders and different horses. It all depends on what you want to get out of the experience. I admit that those performances made me cringe, but at least they were getting out there and trying to show and not waving their carrot sticks at non-Parelli's and telling them to rid the bits and spurs.
> 
> ...


The thing is that THEY put this out there as an example of what Parelli dose. The video is basically a look at me and how good we are. It even says something like that in the description on Youtube. This is a person (Parelli) who is making money as a trainer selling his goods. So YES I expect him to bet better then that.

It would be like me sending my horse to a trainer paying him money to train and then seeing this as an end results. I would be saying the same thing and pointing it out.

Trainers people like Parelli who take your money in extange for a product needs to prove they can do it. Look at Stacy Westfall. She has proven she can do what she is training for and selling her videos showing how she dose it. In then end what she dose works. She has proof. Now maybe not work for every person who tries it as I am a firm beleiver that there is no substitue for a good trainer. However they need to put their money where their mouth is and from that video and others I have seen of Parelli all I see is a person who is really good at selling stuff. He would make a great used car saleman.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I will add that the riding/horses I did see in that video is still turning me away from the riding side of parelli. Ive never been a fan of the riding part to start with but I once Chance came out of her little vacation I was gonna give it a go. This video turned me away. I love the ground work.. wont go for the riding. AT LEAST not intill my horse is better trained with traditional type methods.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> I will add that the riding/horses I did see in that video is still turning me away from the riding side of parelli. Ive never been a fan of the riding part to start with but I once Chance came out of her little vacation I was gonna give it a go. This video turned me away. I love the ground work.. wont go for the riding. AT LEAST not intill my horse is better trained with traditional type methods.


I think you are on the correct path. I am not at all a big fan if the games they play with Parelli. I am a fan of NH. I use it all the time. It is more a way to communicate and if you can do that and know what that is for the horse you are more then 1/2 way there. 

My problem is that there are so many ways to things and by saying I must do these games and I must get to some point before I can on. That is one of the big problems I have. 

In the end good training is good training and once you have it you have it. At that point I have yet to find a horse who will not be a willing partner once you are willing to lead.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Hali said:


> FYI, the first rider, Lauren, is *paralyzed from the waist down*.


She deserves a BIG credit for that. Seriously. I'm always amazed with handicapped people still doing sport they love.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I think keeping my self open to other trainers and methods has really helped with the way I work with horses. I actually got some NICE comments from a few people today. My BO has seen what ive done with the horse im training for a friend, and even with my own personal horse. She gave me some awesome compliments on saying how beautifly they are going, and how they dont look like the same horse. She said its amazing I can do such thigns with horses at this age. Which that ment ALOT. So keeping an open mind and just reading and listening to what the horse tells you will get you to where you need to be.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

The thing that gets me is that PP could have picked any clip of him on any horse doing any discipline and what you see on the video is the best he could do. If it was Clinton Anderson he would be doing a reining pattern and he would be doing it well. Same goes for Stacy Westfall. I have at least two horses in my corral right now that I haven't ridden in two months that could do as well as PP did in those videos.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> She deserves a BIG credit for that. Seriously. I'm always amazed with handicapped people still doing sport they love.


 
They all do.

I saw one rider at the paraolympics that rode *WITH NO LEGS*. It was a few olympics ago and they sat up straight as a dye (no leaning back and had quite quiet hands also) and she also rode with a *single bridle* so didn't have the advantage of the double that the rider in the video had. Can't remember her name but shows you what can really be accomplished.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

The original poster's video got deleted. Is this the same one?




 
EDIT: Oops, it already got posted! ~


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Yup...


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Funny thing is this one is not better then the other. You would think that if you are going to change it out you would put up a better one.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I had to watch Sailing Smart twice. That's a hell of a horse.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I had to watch Sailing Smart twice. That's a hell of a horse.


Ya you could play the game pick the one thing that dose not fit.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Oh for goodness sakes, the dressage rider is Lauren Barwick who is paralyzed and who is also a GOLD MEDAL winner in the Olympics. She did her Gold Medal winning Freestyle Dressage routine at the Celebration last year and it was gorgeous!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

As for Caton's ride on Mango, (Caton is Pat's son) he had a stroke when he was very young and still has issues with his one side, but the doctors had told Pat he would never ride again, but look at him now. Pretty impressive I'd say....I've loved seeing Caton improve over the years.

Emily Thompson, daughter of Dan and Gretchen Thompson (Parelli Professionals) and Porche are an amazing team. I love watching them at tour events, their relationship is exceptional. She's only 21 or 22 years old.

I'm excited for the future of the Parelli Competition Team. I think people will always jump at the chance to criticize something about Parelli, and that's sad. Don't really know why the OP posted this in the first place if she was dissapointed in what she saw....makes me wonder....


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Those are some nice excuses/reason why some on that video looked so bad. 

So now what is Pats excuse????? He was one of those in that video and he looked worse them most of the others. Even the training looked like it was incomplete. I can understand that if the rider was a Green reiner but this is the great Pat Parelli.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

And I think that's his "Wondermare". She can also "piaffe", apparently.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Even those spins where not correct and he is pulling her around in the turns. She is in a bridle not a snaffle. Cue the horse drop your hands and let the horse work. Also slow the spin DOWN and get it correct. It is NOT about the speed it is about being correct and that was not. Sorry one of my pet peeves when people think they are doing reining. I am sure Dressage people feel the same.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Oh yes, we do...
"Look! He's going round!" *seesawseesawseesaw*


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

dressagexlee said:


> And I think that's his "Wondermare". She can also "piaffe", apparently.
> 
> YouTube - Pat Parelli and Magic


So this is his version of horsemanship, that we "lesser mortals" are supposed to aspire to?

Eek. . .circus tricks and lots of hauling on the mouth. . .no thanks.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

The thing is that too many people are impressed by all the parlor tricks that he dose and most have never seen a true reining horse or Dressage horse so that looks good to them. They do not see the little things that are wrong they only see a horse spinning fast. I see that a lot. People think it is all about the speed.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

wow. even my inexperienced reiner and dressage eyes knew that was really bad........ the spins were all over and only 1 person good do a sliding stop -barely-


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Jolly Badger said:


> So this is his version of horsemanship, that we "lesser mortals" are supposed to aspire to?
> 
> Eek. . .circus tricks and lots of hauling on the mouth. . .no thanks.


 
That is not a piaffe but a horse mincing its steps. There is no lowering of the croup or lifting of the front. The hind end steps are not even under the horse's body.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> *Those are some nice excuses/reason why some on that video looked so bad. *
> 
> *So now what is Pats excuse????? * He was one of those in that video and he looked worse them most of the others. Even the training looked like it was incomplete. I can understand that if the rider was a Green reiner but this is the great Pat Parelli.


I would like to point out that I wouldn't call them 'excuses' per se, that sounds like a cop-out. What I really didn't like in this thread is the bashing of other riders in that video; the ones that are simply following a program that they think is working for them. We don't know their history whatsoever. I don't think it's fair to criticize the riders in that video; they aren't the ones going off about how great and versatile their program is.
I KNOW I have videos that show my riding in not the best of light - but I took away from those experiences and learned. I have videos from when I was a young, inexperienced rider working with a trainer who went against the grain on certain things, and I learned a great deal. The videos make me cringe, but I learned from the experience. 

Pat... he has none. He's claiming to be this big-name trainer that can win in all disciplines, and let's be honest - to say the absolute least, his spins are atrocious.
No, Pat... he's fair game. If he's arrogant enough to say that his program works for all horses, all disciplines, all riders, he's fair game for criticism.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> No, Pat... he's fair game. If he's arrogant enough to say that his program works for all horses, all disciplines, all riders, he's fair game.


fair game? *evil grin* hehehe.............. get the manure forks!  
jk


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Im actually starting to see how a lot of what he teaches the horses have no quality.. the Piaffe... spins... and even the jump is somewhat dangerous because he doesnt take the time to teach the horse to do it correct... I mean its good there having fun with the horses.

Kelly sigler.. a 3 star instructor is actually taking lessons outside parelli to teach her horse to work correctly over jumps etc.! I was very happy to see that. I think if you just stick to parelli and not venture out your not gonna get to far.. its a great foundation.. thats it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I would like to point out that I wouldn't call them 'excuses' per se, that sounds like a cop-out. What I really didn't like in this thread is the bashing of other riders in that video; the ones that are simply following a program that they think is working for them. We don't know their history whatsoever. I don't think it's fair to criticize the riders in that video; they aren't the ones going off about how great and versatile their program is.
> I KNOW I have videos that show my riding in not the best of light - but I took away from those experiences and learned. I have videos from when I was a young, inexperienced rider working with a trainer who went against the grain on certain things, and I learned a great deal. The videos make me cringe, but I learned from the experience.
> 
> Pat... he has none. He's claiming to be this big-name trainer that can win in all disciplines, and let's be honest - to say the absolute least, his spins are atrocious.
> No, Pat... he's fair game. If he's arrogant enough to say that his program works for all horses, all disciplines, all riders, he's fair game for criticism.


I will agree that we do not know a lot about the other riders. From the sound so it there are things going on that I will say it is nice they are even riding. 

I will also agree that we all have those type of videos of our riding. I am no exception. However I do not put them out there in a light to show that THIS IS A GREAT program. If this was a video showing these people showing and that was it. Then fine I agree bashing should be out.

However ALL these riders no matter what their story is part of the Parelli competition team. This is a promotional video for PP system and how it works. So in that light each rider is fair game. I will say that the second horse doing spins the buckskin which from what I under stand is PP son?? Who is disabled?? His spins are more correct then his dads. Still need work but at least they are MORE CORRECT which is where the score starts.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> I mean its good there having fun with the horses.


To me this is what PP is and all he and his system should be. No more no less. I will agree that SOME horses enjoy playing the games and it is a nice way to "have fun" with a horse. Past that if you do not go on like what you are saying it gets dangerous and you do not get the quality and a lot of people do not get the control they need b/c it is all about fun and what is fun for a horse may not be fun for a human in the end.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Exactly - When I was letting chance offer the canter and I would take it.. because pat always said take what they offer and go with it which I agree to a point but chance got very bully like when riding because of it because she was always doing waht she wanted. It came to teh point where if I! asked for the canter she would buck or crow up playfully but if she wanted to do it it was nice and smooth. That was not okay with me. So after teh 2nd session of that I stopped letting that happen and from then on she was willing to pick up the canter when I wanted!

I will always do parelli on ground because I see it as VERY benifitial and teaches the horse respect.. and its not respect by fear which I see a lot. My horses also LOVE to play with me on ground and they dont even know that they are learning stuff because they are having to much fun.


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

You know nrhareiner,
For a "Super Moderator" and a reiner you are sure going out of your way to bash,bash,bash and set yourself up as the judge of a couple of young people that have achieved something and are proud of it.
All you have done is bash them based on YOUR perception of the NRHA rules and the what a horse is judged at those shows.
The demo is just that....A demo by people that enjoy horses.
I am NOT excusing PP and I can stand on hes own in front of the NRHA judges and try to compete at that level.

I feel that you have cheapened your argument by continue to bash people that were not even being asked to be critiqued by you.

Western riding to me is helping and giving and understanding the horses and the people that enrich their lives with the style of riding.

If you have such a personal grudge against PP,then why not take it off the Natural horsemanship side of the forum?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I still can't figure out who they are competing against. Do they just go to shows in the Parreli rig and show against everybody els or is there some circuit they are trying to start? The thing I have to take into consideration is that the video shows several people for maybe 20-30 seconds each. A dressage test is 4-5 minutes at least and the western riders had 15 minutes of video to edit down into a 30 second clip showing thier riding in the best light and what you see is the best they did. You can't really say "well that wasn't the best run that day" because they picked that run on that day to highlight thier talent. We all have had times when things didn't go just how we planned and if they were taped you wouldn't want the world to see them but there are also times when you do something just right. I tend to think that these people looked at the clips and said "yeah, that's what I like right there".


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Marecare said:


> You know nrhareiner,
> For a "Super Moderator" and a reiner you are sure going out of your way to bash,bash,bash and set yourself up as the judge of a couple of young people that have achieved something and are proud of it.
> All you have done is bash them based on YOUR perception of the NRHA rules and the what a horse is judged at those shows.
> The demo is just that....A demo by people that enjoy horses.
> ...


First being a SM dose not take away my right to voice an opinion. Nothing take away that right.

Second. I was not basing anyone (well maybe PP). I believe if you go back and read what I typed you would see that I stated that the others given their disabilities are doing a good job and I am happy to see them trying. That PP son was actually doing the maneuvers correctly even though there was no speed. Which is not basing it is stating a fact. What he was getting was good for what he has to work with. That is great.

However PP holds himself to anouther level. He is taking peoples money for training horses or at the very least DVDs to teach people to teach horses. He is taking their money based on something he is selling. A way of training in which he clams to be the best way to train a horse and it works for every rider and every horse. Clearly it dose not. It has nothing to do with PP. I am sure he is a very nice person. However if what he is selling and making a good amount of money on is based on a lie. Would you not think that if what he dose works so well that a horse he rides all the time would be better then that??? I did not go hunting these videos. PP and his team put these up for the world to see and that was what they think is good. So if he thinks that is so good I bet when others see it ( who do not know) they would be inclined to think that was good and correct. It is not. If no one points that out then that is the new standard most will think if as good and correct.

If that is what Stacy Westfall runs looked like and she was selling DVD (which she is) I would be saying the same thing about her. However the difference is that she has the goods to back up what she is selling. She is selling a way of training which at least for her works. You can see it in the shows she has won. When you are taking a persons money for anything you are a pro. If you can not do it then you should not be selling it. Bassed on what I have seen of PP he can not do what he is selling.

Would you want a Doctor working on you who was tought by a treacher who was not a Doctor??


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

They do not TEACH dressage, reining, etc. Pat and Linda both take dressage lessons with Walter Zettl and Karen Rohlf....oversees Linda rides with Louise Lucio (the latest SavvyTimes magazine has an article on that), Pat has ridden with Craig Johnson for reining....they tell you, in the program, that once you have a strong foundation under your belt _go out and find a trainer who will put you on the right path for whatever competition goals you have in mind._ TRUE Parelli students have criteria we look for in a trainer, their thoughts and practices have to coincide and "get along" with how we go about things. Does that mean they have to do Parelli? Of course not. But they have to hold the horse as top priority and how THEY feel about things, not about the goal.

Kevinshorses, I will go back and try to find out what competitions their team has been in....they post them sometimes online. I know Lauren does a lot in Florida, but the names escape me at the moment.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Im actually starting to see how a lot of what he teaches the horses have no quality.. the Piaffe... spins... and even the jump is somewhat dangerous because he doesnt take the time to teach the horse to do it correct... I mean its good there having fun with the horses.
> 
> Kelly sigler.. a 3 star instructor is actually taking lessons outside parelli to teach her horse to work correctly over jumps etc.! I was very happy to see that. I think if you just stick to parelli and not venture out your not gonna get to far.. its a great foundation.. thats it.


 
Exactly, lack of quality. Everyone has a learning curve, everyone needs to take steps in how they learn, that is perfectly acceptable to me. What bothers me with the program is what is being marketed and accepted by such a large part of the equestrian world and what it is producing is far from optimal. Its not only in Parelli, its in all aspects of the horse world, fads that may be aesthetically pleasing to the unknowing viewer, but are not correct for the horse.

I've always been taught that the best thing you can do with horses in reguards to other people is be an example. If I'm working with something with a horse and someone is watching, I tell them not only what I'm working on, but where we need improvements, and where they should look for those improvements as time goes by. In those videos I saw of Parelli, I saw him being applauded for actions that would make professionals in that discipline cringe. Are they teaching it? No, but they are setting an example, setting a standard.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

there is a difference between PP and NH . Most people dislike NH because of PP. this is not a thread bashing NH, but one critiquing PP , so NH people shouldn't get to offended. make sense?

AND SPIRITHORSE,
when they say go and find a trainer that works, they are talking about a NH trainer, i think.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Funny thread!! Do you think Pat's ears are burning?


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

His mustache certainly should...


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

dressagexlee said:


> His mustache certainly should...


 I am so glad someone else said that! I never see his riding - I can't get past the moustache!!:lol:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Too bad the video has been removed. I came late here and missed it.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Its reposted in one of the pages.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> Too bad the video has been removed. I came late here and missed it.


There are plenty of other videos of the P's on YouTube. . .I've watched several of them, hoping to catch just a glimpse of exactly what it is that is so great about them.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> First being a SM dose not take away my right to voice an opinion. Nothing take away that right.


Sorry, but it's driving me crazy. The word is spelled 'does'. 'Dose' means a specified amount, as in a 'dose of medication'.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Actually they AREN'T talking about NH trainers....they have a list of all the "Parelli friendly" trainers that they have personally worked with on their website. It doesn't mean they necessarily 'do' Parelli but they know the methods and they agree with them.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

dressagexlee said:


> His mustache certainly should...


:lol: 

Now, I don't think NH is all about PP. And critisizing PP is NEARLY not the same as critisizing NH. There are so many other NH trainers out there who are really amazing and with real achievements (Stacy Westfall was already mentioned here).


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> Actually they AREN'T talking about NH trainers....they have a list of all the "Parelli friendly" trainers that they have personally worked with on their website. It doesn't mean they necessarily 'do' Parelli but they know the methods and they agree with them.


 
To me they would have to be PP friendly for so many GOOD trainers won't touch a Parelli trained horse...I won't.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Spyder said:


> To me they would have to be PP friendly for so many GOOD trainers won't touch a Parelli trained horse...I won't.


You are not the only one either.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Hm, I always thought a GOOD trainer would take ANY horse.:wink:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

A good trainer knows when it will be more work to fix the problems then it is worth.

You know why I typically do not or at least when I started out in reining did not start my own reiners. Even though I had started a lot of horses?? B/C I did not want to train a horse one way then have to have it retrained to be a reining horse. Now that I know what all goes into starting and training a reining horse I am much more comfortable starting them but still find it is much more economical and practical to just send the horse to a good reining trainer.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> A good trainer knows when it will be more work to fix the problems then it is worth.


I don't ever think it's not worth it. Admittedly, I enjoy fixing the ones people have messed up...learn more that way and makes it easier to articulate to others why doing it a certain way creates problems, what those problems are, and how difficult they can be to fix down the road.


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## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

Mercedes said:


> I don't ever think it's not worth it. Admittedly, I enjoy fixing the ones people have messed up...learn more that way and makes it easier to articulate to others why doing it a certain way creates problems, what those problems are, and how difficult they can be to fix down the road.


When a trainer is there for a profit vs a hobby it usually is not worth it.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Crimsonhorse01 said:


> When a trainer is there for a profit vs a hobby it usually is not worth it.


I don't think you can be a 'good' trainer if you're doing it simply for the money.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Do not even think of it from a trainers point of view. Think of also from a owners point if view also. Dose the owner have the extra money to pay to have things fixed? How much longer will it take??

Nest a good trainer will have a full stable. They do not have the time to take on horses who have big issues or need to be completely re schooled. I have seen it many times. It has to be a business for them.

Also if it was so easy to teach a PP trained horse to do other things then refer back to the video posted. Here PP who I believe it was you who stated he was also taking reining reasons with a reining trainer. Yet what was in that video is the end results.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Beling said:


> Hm, I always thought a GOOD trainer would take ANY horse.:wink:


 
I agree with Mercedes that any HORSE is worth it.


My reason for posting what I did is because of the owner/rider.

It takes twice as long if not more to train a rider over training a horse. I have had to retrain many horses and the one thing that holds them back from excelling in what the owner/rider wants is the owner/rider themselves.

Horse don't have hang ups like people do and since I freelance I am not there all the time. So what the owner/rider does (and I do give them "homework") will determine how good that combination eventually turns out..


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## Marecare (Jan 1, 2009)

I offer this post because I feel that the industry as a whole is suffering great economic times and needs to recognize the people that contribute.
No matter what the philosophy is in the end they work to bring people into the world of horses.

One of these people is Jack Brainard.
He not only served on the original board of the National Reining Horse Association,but also helped set it up.
He was and is a judge and has trained most of his life.
His total accomplishments are to long to list here and I will not attempt to do so and will just add this link.

JACK BRAINARD ADVANCED HORSEMANSHIP 

For what it is worth this is an excerpt for his book *"If I were to train a horse"*

They are his words and not mine and I lay no claim.

Page 9

"I have been fortunate to become acquainted with Pat Parelli and with his ideas,programs,and methods.
He has done more to help the average horseman,and his horses than any man in existence. I look forward to a long relationship with Pat because he is certainly on the right track".

It is easy to put some pictures up and tear something down.
Building something takes more effort and time.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

Marecare said:


> Page 9
> 
> "I have been fortunate to become acquainted with Pat Parelli and with his ideas,programs,and methods.
> He has done more to help the average horseman,and his horses than any man in existence. I look forward to a long relationship with Pat because he is certainly on the right track".


Frankly, that's simply a matter of opinion.

My opinion is that most of those people he's 'helping?', probably shouldn't have a horse in the first place.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Do not even think of it from a trainers point of view. Think of also from a owners point if view also. Dose the owner have the extra money to pay to have things fixed? How much longer will it take??
> 
> Nest a good trainer will have a full stable. They do not have the time to take on horses who have big issues or need to be completely re schooled. I have seen it many times. It has to be a business for them.
> 
> Also if it was so easy to teach a PP trained horse to do other things then refer back to the video posted. Here PP who I believe it was you who stated he was also taking reining reasons with a reining trainer. Yet what was in that video is the end results.


Actually, I did look at it from a trainer's point of view. Mine. 

Having a full stable or an empty stable is not indicative of whether someone is a good trainer or not. It's probably a better gauge of how good they are at promoting themselves more than anything.

If money is the reason you choose to train a horse or not, then, imo, you can't ever be a 'good' trainer.

I train for the love of the horse. To learn. To become better. And then to hopefully be able to pass that knowledge onto other receptive individuals. If I can make some money, then that's a bonus, but not the motivator. Money makes people do stupid and ugly things that they'd otherwise not do. 

I didn't see anyone say it was easy to retrain a PP trained horse. On the contrary, anyone who's done any serious retraining knows how time consuming it can be. The reward of seeing a horse develop from a spoiled, insecure, poorly conditioned individual into a confident, joyful creature that reaches it's athletic potential, far exceeds the monetary compensation.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I actually love parelli trained horses. Once you understand the way they were trained and work with it they are amazing horses to work with. Chance/Little are parelli trained and they are 1000000x easier to work with/handle then the show horse im helping excersize for a boarder. So I asked if I could do the 7 games with him for a bit and hes already a little easier to work with on teh ground.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Mercedes said:


> My opinion is that most of those people he's 'helping?', probably *shouldn't have a horse in the first place*.


Actually that's a pretty rough statement. While I don't like PP program and very much dislike his promotions (and hate when someone says Parelli program is the only way to go and works for any horse), some people love it and it works for them. I don't see anything wrong with it. In the end some people want to have a horse doing tricks rather then 4th level dressage horse or jumper. It's a matter of choice one has to respect.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Actually that's a pretty rough statement. While I don't like PP program and very much dislike his promotions (and hate when someone says Parelli program is the only way to go and works for any horse), some people love it and it works for them. I don't see anything wrong with it. In the end some people want to have a horse doing tricks rather then 4th level dressage horse or jumper. It's a matter of choice one has to respect.


Well, let me make it even rougher then...while I specified those people 'he's' helping, (because that is the prime topic of this thread) I was actually thinking on a much broader basis involving all 'those types' of gurus? who mass teach in 30/60 minute clinics 'that you too can play games, break your horse to saddle, join up, et al'...most of the people who follow them, should not own a horse.

It's not a statement I made based on tricks vs discipline as I'll make it even rougher still and apply that statement to people who own horses who do a specific discipline with them, including racing.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> Once you understand the way they were trained and work with it they are amazing horses to work with.


A horse should be trained such that regardless of your educational background (as in, the book, the instructor, etc...) you learned from, you should be able to do the basics with it. (Feed it, medicate it, lead it, load it on a trailer, groom it, put tack on, w/t/c, steer, stop...) That makes the horse a 'good citizen' *with value to all*, not just value to people who took that particular course.

It should not require a person or horse to learn a whole new system to communicate with each other.

People are always saying, there's more than one way to train a horse. Sure there is. Doesn't mean we should be doing it.



> Chance/Little are parelli trained and they are 1000000x easier to work with/handle then the show horse im helping excersize for a boarder. So I asked if I could do the 7 games with him for a bit and hes already a little easier to work with on teh ground.


That's only because you don't know how to train any other way. If you don't have your 7 games, you don't know how to communicate with the horse. 

In this regard you've put the burden of learning on the horse, who now has to learn a whole new language instead of the one given to him by his species. It's only the horse's inherient generosity and want to get along that keeps most people alive.

Training should always be the human learning and communicating in 'horse', not the horse having to learn how to decipher 'human'.

One need only to peruse the threads on this and any other equine BB to see how many people don't have a clue how to talk horse.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

****! I know how to work with horses without parelli. I just choose to use the 7 games because they are great foundation and teaches the horse to properly move aaway from pressure then into it. Which is all this show horse did. You pressed on his chest or nose to back him up and he would lean into you. Once I got him doing a few of them games he was very easy to move around. Ive been with horses for 8 years done parelli for 2... so I know how to function with out doing the games.. I just choose to use them.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I do agree that if you are going to own a horse or any animal you need to know the basic care and handling of that animal. Does not matter if it is a horse dog cat cow any animal. You need to have a basic idea of care for THAT animal.



Mercedes said:


> It's not a statement I made based on tricks vs discipline as I'll make it even rougher still and apply that statement to people who own horses who do a specific discipline with them, including racing.



Now this I do not under stand and people who say that if you only do one thing with your horse you are wrong and/or should not have horses. Well applying this thought then you would have a lot fewer horse owners. There would be very very few reiners. Very very few cutter or even WP riders and I would bet very few who even do Dressage or any other type of event. As most reiners past the green and maybe rookie levels only do reining with a bit of reined cow horse tossed in. Same with most other events. Some in breed shows will do other events trying for the all around for the show but I bet if you asked each one of them they have a favorite event and if you took away the all around they would only do 1 maybe 2 events.

Adding more disciplines to my horses list of things they do would not increase their value. It would not make them better trained.

Also keep in mind that those of us who choice to only do one or 2 disciplines are not in any way interested in doing the other events normally. I do reining and reined cow horse. On occasion I will enter a Western Riding Western horsemanship class but that is very very rear. Why? 2 real reasons. One I do not like WP or any of the English events. Also showing NRHA there are no other events. When I do show in an AQHA show Reining seems to be the ugly step child and we are always last. So I am not going to hang all day to show something I do not like just to get to my event. I just haul in at the end of the day show and go home.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> ****! I know how to work with horses without parelli. I just choose to use the 7 games because they are great foundation and teaches the horse to properly move aaway from pressure then into it. Which is all this show horse did. You pressed on his chest or nose to back him up and he would lean into you. Once I got him doing a few of them games he was very easy to move around. Ive been with horses for 8 years done parelli for 2... so I know how to function with out doing the games.. I just choose to use them.



Although as you know I am not at all a fan of Parelli and I really do not like the games. However like any tool if used properly for a specific purpose and once that purpose is accomplished you move on. I have no problem using them b/c if you brake it down you will see those games in many ways are like what most people use. Including myself. I just do not call them games.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> Now this I do not under stand and people who say that if you only do one thing with your horse you are wrong and/or should not have horses.


You misunderstand my statement. What I'm saying is, the PP crowd/followers are not the only ones I'm referring to. Most people who own horses, regardless of the discipline/mentor they choose, shouldn't own horses in the first place.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Mercedes said:


> Well, let me make it even rougher then...while I specified those people 'he's' helping, (because that is the prime topic of this thread) I was actually thinking on a much broader basis involving all 'those types' of gurus? who mass teach in 30/60 minute clinics 'that you too can play games, break your horse to saddle, join up, et al'...most of the people who follow them, should not own a horse.


Do you mean any 60 mins clinic is useless and people going there just shouldn't own the horse?? I apologies if I misunderstood you of course. I go to the Expo demonstrations (which are generally 60 mins only) and while some clinics are waste of time, some are very useful and give you good ideas where to start. 

I've been at Craig Cameron clinic last Fri about how to start a horse on cows. No cows of course (and c'mon, we almost don't have them for cutting or cow working here in MD), but it was very clear AND it's something I (and I'd think lost of people sitting there) can do with my horse to start. Will she be ever a cutting champion? Of course, not, I don't even hold my breath, but if I find a place to try real cows she'll at least will be somewhat prepared. Same with the demonstration by Stacy Westfall. Lots of talk about horse's personalities (and that's a hyper horse will behave differently from nice quiet one) and where to start with the ground work for the fresh horse.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> ****! I know how to work with horses without parelli. I just choose to use the 7 games because they are great foundation and teaches the horse to properly move aaway from pressure then into it. Which is all this show horse did. You pressed on his chest or nose to back him up and he would lean into you. Once I got him doing a few of them games he was very easy to move around. Ive been with horses for 8 years done parelli for 2... so I know how to function with out doing the games.. I just choose to use them.


So, you require games to teach the horse to move away from pressure. That's not a question...that is a statement.

How about you just press firmer on the chest until the horse does move and then release the pressure when the horse yields? Or do you not think the horse would understand that because it's not a game? 

I don't, for a second, buy it. You chose the games because that's what you know. You even prefaced it by saying Chance/Little are Parelli trained and therefore are 1000000x easier to handle. 

No, my dear, YOU are the one who's Parelli trained. The horse has always known how to move away from pressure, you just didn't know how to communicate it to the horse until a set of games was introduced to you. The boarder's horse always knew, you just didn't know how to communicate it to the horse until you went back to what you knew...the games.

And, omg, every time people use the word 'game' when it concerns a 1000lb animal that can stomp them into tomorrow in a split second, it makes me cringe.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Do you mean any 60 mins clinic is useless and people going there just shouldn't own the horse??


Nope, not in the least.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Mercedes said:


> Nope, not in the least.


What can I say... Then all people I know (including top jumping trainers and some dressage trainers in my area) should not own any (or train any I guess). :? They are probably too dumb to waste their time on those useless 60 mins clinics...


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> What can I say... Then all people I know (including top jumping trainers and some dressage trainers in my area) should not own any (or train any I guess). :? They are probably too dumb to waste their time on those useless 60 mins clinics...


What?

You asked: Do you mean any 60 minute clinic is useless and people going there shouldn't own the horse?

I answered: Nope, not in the least. As in, no I do not mean that any 60 minute clinic is useless, blah, blah, blah.

Let me quote it for you: *I was actually thinking on a much broader basis involving all 'those types' of gurus? who mass teach in 30/60 minute clinics 'that you too can play games, break your horse to saddle, join up, et al'...most of the people who follow them, should not own a horse.*

Key words....
*
'those types' of gurus?*

(the thread is about Parelli so it shouldn't take a lot of imagination to figure out some others of that 'type') 

*mass teach*...*'that you too can play games, break your horse to saddle, join up, et al'... *(in 30/60 minutes or less)

*most of the people who follow them, should not own a horse.* (and when I say follow...I mean in terms of follow like a cult leader)

But hey, feel free to have your own opinion on the topic. I will continue to have more horses then I know what to do with, to pick from, to retrain, because they can't be handled by their owner who was told the horse could be broke to ride in 30 minutes, or if they just owned a carrot stick they too could jump their picnic table w/o tack (to borrow a reference from another forum poster).


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

I did parelli for the groundwork. Eventually, got into riding with it and I was wondering what the hell the purpose was, of using two sticks to steer my horse 8\ So I went to someone who actually taught me to ride. \o/ 

I can still ride him tackless - no sticks required.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

HorsesAreForever said:


> I actually love parelli trained horses. Once you understand the way they were trained and work with it they are amazing horses to work with. Chance/Little are parelli trained and they are 1000000x easier to work with/handle then the show horse im helping excersize for a boarder. So I asked if I could do the 7 games with him for a bit and hes already a little easier to work with on teh ground.


*Are you really trying to say that the horse that you wanted to sell because she was hard to control and by your own admission "dangerous" is a million times easier to handle than a horse that is being shown?* I think you need to reread some of the threads you have posted in the past. I don't believe for a minute that you started this thread as a critique of PP. I think you thought that what you were seeing was terrific horsemanship untill so many others started critisizing it. I don't want to attack you but I think you need to take some lessons from an experienced horseman other than who you have been before you train or ride anyone else's horses. You are inexperienced and need more (or better) instruction than what you have been getting.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Mercedes said:


> What?
> 
> You asked: Do you mean any 60 minute clinic is useless and people going there shouldn't own the horse?
> 
> I answered: Nope, not in the least.* As in, no I do not mean that any 60 minute clinic is useless, blah, blah, blah.*


Sorry, I certainly misunderstood you then!  I heard before (NOT in this thread) some people saying watching those clinics is complete waste of time. 

IMO even a short clinic can teach me something. Whether it's western, english or horsemanship. Now I mean the clinic with the great trainer with accomplishments of course (and who CAN teach). I even go sometime to the other (more experienced) people lessons with my instructor just to stand there and watch how they work.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I do wonder at the way the whole original Parelli message has been lost in translation. Today we talk about training horses in the Parelli style, but I don't think it was ever intended that way. In the very beginning I think PP was honestly attempting to help people communicate with their horses. Originally I think the 'seven games' was just a phrase to help people lighten up on how they approach their horse. In the very beginning Parelli was teaching NH, pressure/release. I genuinely think he set out to provide a stepping stone or starting point from which people could then go on and TRAIN their horses.

Sadly what seems to have happened is that he has become overcome with his own magnificence, the marketing machine has become a monster and it is chewing both people and horses up and spitting them out! I bought probably one of the first video sets to come out, many years ago. The vids taught me plenty! I do not in anyway now do Parelli, however I was able to pick up some good concepts and expound on them myself. In those first videos, back in the day, Pat Parelli wasn't purporting to "train" a horse in any discipline, he was seeking to lay a foundation of communication on which a person could start a horse then go on to train. 

Having read this thread I get the whole PP bashing and it is kind of fun, I also believe that Pat has set himself up for exactly this kind of response. He and his thousand dollar pants wife have set themselves up as riding/training experts which is a title only top international competitors should perhaps label themselves with (and I am talking Grand Prix, Olympics etc). I feel that it is a shame that the franchise has strayed so far from it's original roots, Pat Parelli as a horse handler had some excellent points. Pat Parelli, trainer, rider extraordinaire is an ***.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Very well written, kiwigirl! I agree 150%. 

As far as the original video goes, super kudos to the riders who are out there having fun in spite of the obstacles they have. As far as Mr. Parelli's riding, that was just appalling. :shock: I really hate to say it, but I've seen six year old lesson kids whose feet barely reached the stirrups with better seats. I don't think that I can come up with enough synonyms for uncomfortable to describe the appearance of the horse he was riding. Granted, I'm no reiner, but...


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Wow, I've been missing all the fun! At this point, I'm pretty much on the same page as Mercedes. I actually have a horse in my barn that was a rescue that had been trained by an accredited Parelli instructor. I've retrained plenty of horses, and this guy is honestly taking quite a while. Its like he plays by a whole different set of rules, he is insecure, pushy, invasive, he has a whole different box of coping mechanisms compared to the majority of horses that I've worked with. Not to mention that his body is a train wreck. The horse, like the people I've met that are heavily involved in Parelli, follows the methods. It isn't at all what is natural to a horse, as working with a completely feral horse is much easier and straight forward. He is acting off of what he has been taught. That is the whole problem, if Parelli is supposed to work on what the horse already understands, then why would any horse be "trained Parelli"? The Parelli horses I have worked with don't work off of natural instincts, they work off of pressure and release that we have put into their world. To travel outside of the methods put them in a state of panic as they are already outside of their comfort zone. 

People as a whole have gravitated towards what our world has geared them towards. People lack the kinesthetic tendencies that used to be necessary for everyday life. They need a method. We live in the "cause and effect" society in which everything that we do produces a consistent result. What we miss in many of these programs is that the horses don't play games. They are willing and they learn what we do through consistency. They learn quickly off of the release of pressure and this can work for or against them over time. People see results through obedience rather than being able to look through the surface to what that horse is saying underneath. I always tell people that I am much more impressed by a horse with a beautiful, even, balanced walk than a horse that can jump picnic tables or even run fast and out of control. Its not about what you can do, but what quality can you put into what you can do. 

Back to the original topic. My problem with the Competition team is the standard that they are setting for such a large group of people. Its like the old saying goes, its hard to soar like an eagle when you are flying with buzzards. The expectations are formed by the majority, and the majority is missing out on so many of the basics of the horse that the influence that it has on a lot of horse owners is far from what it should be. They have changed their program to make their followers completely dependent on them, covering up for their holes as the need comes up with new expensive equipment that corners followers into the fact that there is no other path for them as a result of what they have set up for themselves.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't know if this was the original video, but if it is........






Although I think much of the western riding was horrible, I won't judge it too harshly, as I am not currently riding western.

The dressage riders were APPALLING!!! Their "upper level" rider had a horrible seat and even worse hands (put BLACK gloves on that girl!!). If this is what they are touting as the best examples of their riders, I understand the negative reactions I have read.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think that makes it nearly unanimous. I wish this had been a poll.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

OMG, is it true the first rider is a paraplegic? I saw that on another forum, but am not sure it was about this rider. If so, I take back my criticism on the seat.....the hands stand, though.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

^ she is, AF. That has been misunderstood before, so no one will hold that against you  

I give her props for riding at all, but her hands need work.

Not even going to get into the cult... I mean Parelli talk.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

First of all Lauren Barwick is a Para-Olympic gold medalist. I'm fairly sure she has no use of her legs?
That Susanne Neff girl has no such excuse...

I know nothing about western so I can't comment on that, but I think we all know my opinions of Parelli


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

> Sadly what seems to have happened is that he has become overcome with his own magnificence, the marketing machine has become a monster and it is chewing both people and horses up and spitting them out!


That was Linda's little endeavor! She found a guy who was marketable, and she sold him. Linda is Pat's P-I-M-P.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

She's pretty out there, for sure. Anyone with the cajones to charge over a thousand dollars for a pair of breeches just because SHE wore them......

Heck, I might consider paying for Podhajsky's breeches.....


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> Anyone with the cajones to charge over a thousand dollars for a pair of breeches just because SHE wore them......


Where this rumor came from? I never heard about it before. Was it on their website? :shock:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Linky to said Breeches


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I found that absolutly halarious.


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## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

Thats pretty gross.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

That seller has been trying to sell those pants for over a year. I remember someone else had a link to an ebay ad before.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Allison Finch said:


> I don't know if this was the original video, but if it is........
> 
> YouTube - Parelli Competition Team; Show Highlights
> 
> ...


I like that they changed the video. . .no segments of PP at all.

Frankly, even though I don't care for the man at all, I was a little embarassed for him after seeing the original video. . .


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh I am going to have to go watch the second video they put out, I did know they had changed it. That stinks. Just shows they know but will not admit it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

No he is still on that one. Still really bad too. Oh well. I guess at least he is trying????


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

nrhareiner said:


> No he is still on that one. Still really bad too. Oh well. I guess at least he is trying????


 I think it is nice that you have stopped the out right bashing, the patronizing is way better!! LOL

(I am just teasing and being cheeky by the way!)


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

kiwigirl said:


> I think it is nice that you have stopped the out right bashing, the patronizing is way better!! LOL
> 
> (I am just teasing and being cheeky by the way!)



Ya it is just the way I am feeling today. Tomorrow maybe back to bashing maybe not. :wink:

Mine is more a sense that he is showing what his program can do and why you should do it and spend all that money. NOT.


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

Wanted to post this. This is apparently Linda Parelli, it's from one of her seven games DVDs. Can anybody guess what is trying to be taught?
Click Here

Give up? They're trying to teach him to back up.


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## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

I'm not quite sure... I thought it was back up but then she was trying to move his forequarters. Yet she would yank him back when he tried...
I personally dont mind Pat. I really dislike Linda and her "people teacher."


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## dressagexlee (Dec 15, 2009)

I think it was something about the horse not understanding the cue (in Parelli, shaking the lead means back up), he wasn't paying attention, or something. I don't know. It's also, as far as my knowledge goes, labeled as a "game".
All I know is that it wouldn't teach anything except for fear (which is entirely different from respect) of the handler and make a horse head-shy.

Actually, now that I think about it, I realise why a green Clydesdale/Quarter Horse that I exercised (not trained!) was head-shy. Czar was Parelli trained; I used to have to stand in the stall with him, sometimes for thirty minutes or more, just trying to get him to accept the bridle. It took a huge amount of gentle coaxing and quiet motivation just to get him to lower his head. If you lost your temper even in the slightest bit or tried to force him, you'd have to start from square one. He got better and better in the monthes that I worked with him, but he still never really liked his muzzle or cheeks touched. He wouldn't back up if you moved into him or oushed on his chest, either. You had to shake to rope.
I wonder if this is what happened to him...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Linky to said Breeches


OMG! I just have no words! :lol:


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I tell you. That horse was a saint. If he is not already trashed. I want him. Then I want to take a rope and put it on her head and slap her around with it.

This is what PP cult members aspire to??????????


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

that was a horrible video.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

dressagexlee said:


> Wanted to post this. This is apparently Linda Parelli, it's from one of her seven games DVDs. Can anybody guess what is trying to be taught?
> Click Here
> 
> Give up? They're trying to teach him to back up.


That's the most impatient and angry trainer I've ever seen. :-(


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

dressagexlee said:


> Wanted to post this. This is apparently Linda Parelli, it's from one of her seven games DVDs. Can anybody guess what is trying to be taught?
> Click Here
> 
> Give up? They're trying to teach him to back up.


Somehow it is not surprising.

She failed in dressage too. (just for those that don't know the "real" story behind Linda.)


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

ooo whats the real story behind linda??? 

I know that she got a hot horse what she couldnt handle at all and she went parelli for help basically.. thats not the whole story but just the basics of it. But is there something else???


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Spyder said:


> Somehow it is not surprising.
> 
> She failed in dressage too. (just for those that don't know the "real" story behind Linda.)


I don't know the "real" story. I just always assumed she was married to a trainer and she decided to ride on his coat tails... I know that sounds mean, but it's what I thought....


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I really didn't mind the video. What I saw was a great big horse that had been walking all over people since he had been halter broke and was paying attention to everything but the person on the end of the leadrope. I would have done something similar to get his attention. Every time he takes his eyes off her she pops that lead a little untill he brings his attention back to her. When he tries to walk over her she gets big and puts more energy in the rope and disengages his hindquarters. When he tries to leave her she lets him go a few steps and jerks his head around. That was not some yearling out of the back pasture that had never led before. That horse looked like he was somewhere north of 17 hands and had walk all over people for years. The people that abused this horse were the people that have been handling him and letting him get that disrespectful in his behaviour.

I think she stayed pretty calm and did just as much as she needed to get the required response. I try not to get so caught up in critisizing someone that I can't see the good things they are doing. This is a good example of that. She was trying to fix a horse that was a hazard if not outright dangerous to handle on the ground. I may not agree with most of what the P's do but this was no game it was taking the steps to get something fixed.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

HAF...partly right.

Basically she had a horse SHE could not handle. But the scores she got in dressage showed she simply couldn't ride nor have an understanding of what she was doing in dressage. There are a lot of "hot" horses in dressage and you have to know what you are doing to work them right. If I remember correctly she blamed the coach she had at the time but coach or no, if you can't ride you simply can't ride. She needed a nice quiet trail horse and that would have suited better.

If you look at the videos she has out there with WAZ "trying" to teach her it sure looks like he gave up and just barked out instructions not really caring that they are not done correctly.

Anyways she somehow tagged up with Pat and maybe some of what Pat did helped the horse but my guess is that when Linda stopped "trying" to ride high level dressage on it the horse was happier.

Most of the rest we know but Linda's riding or understanding of dressage hasn't improved and she still "attempts" to fake it.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Interesting. Thanks for filling me in on that one. I havent really looked at any videos she has of her attempting dressage. But I already knew she probably didnt do very well at dressage seeing her ride now.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> I really didn't mind the video. What I saw was a great big horse that had been walking all over people since he had been halter broke and was paying attention to everything but the person on the end of the leadrope. I would have done something similar to get his attention. Every time he takes his eyes off her she pops that lead a little untill he brings his attention back to her. When he tries to walk over her she gets big and puts more energy in the rope and disengages his hindquarters. When he tries to leave her she lets him go a few steps and jerks his head around. That was not some yearling out of the back pasture that had never led before. That horse looked like he was somewhere north of 17 hands and had walk all over people for years. The people that abused this horse were the people that have been handling him and letting him get that disrespectful in his behaviour.
> 
> I think she stayed pretty calm and did just as much as she needed to get the required response. I try not to get so caught up in critisizing someone that I can't see the good things they are doing. This is a good example of that. She was trying to fix a horse that was a hazard if not outright dangerous to handle on the ground. I may not agree with most of what the P's do but this was no game it was taking the steps to get something fixed.


In my humble opinion, she went way over the top. I hate an in-your-face, no-respect horse as much as the next guy, but I WILL NOT use a metal-ended shank on the end of a rope halter to continually SLAM the horse around. You could hear the "clunk" of the metal clasp on the horse's face. I also completely disagree with whatever she was trying to do with the horse's face. That is a headshy horse in the making. 
There was NO give whatsoever. Her timing was atrocious. 
Yielding the hindquarter/forehand? Great! Teaching boundaries? Great! But not the way she was doing it. Nope. From what I saw, she got frustrated and took her anger out on the horse. 

A sentiment I share from another board I belong to: 


> Good timing, a well fitting flat halter with a properly adjusted stud chain over the nose, and a crop, would cure his manners without having to slap a horse in the face and flailing ropes and elbows at him like an idiot.



ETA: Personally, I'd hate to have to try and fix this horse after the Parellite gets through with it.
I see a young, spooky horse that needs consistent work. I don't think he needed what was shown in that video whatsoever.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

I've heard that the horse in the LP video was actually blind in one eye, or had only one eye. . .which makes LP's handling of him even more despicable. :-|


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

What bothers me is that she is flailing around, bullying the horse without any attempt to let the horse know what he SHOULD be doing. When he was watching her and backing up, there was no reward. No indication at all, that this was the expected behavior. He was simply reacting to pain. Without that understanding, the horse learns nothing but frustration, IMO.

I work with other people's problems, often horses considered dangerous. With firm direction followed up with IMMEDIATE praise the second something goes even a little bit better, I have had great success bringing really rank horses around very quickly. I would never treat a horse as this woman did here. And, I have dealt with far worse behavior than that horse displayed.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> What bothers me is that she is flailing around, bullying the horse without any attempt to let the horse know what he SHOULD be doing. When he was watching her and backing up, there was no reward. No indication at all, that this was the expected behavior. He was simply reacting to pain. Without that understanding, the horse learns nothing but frustration, IMO.
> 
> I work with other people's problems, often horses considered dangerous. With firm direction followed up with IMMEDIATE praise the second something goes even a little bit better, I have had great success bringing really rank horses around very quickly. I would never treat a horse as this woman did here. And, I have dealt with far worse behavior than that horse displayed.


Agreed.

Regarding the bolded part... in my opinion, he looked green, confused, and completely out of his element with all the noise of (what I assume was ) a clinic. While it's not an excuse for arrogant behavior, I certainly think that a lot of it was due to his inexperience -- not his fault, it's his owner's for not preparing him.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I started watching the vid and was in full agreement with Kevin. The horse clearly had never had to face up to a person in it's life and was obviously of the opinion that flies are worth more attention than a person in front of him. 

As the video progressed though I was not really happy with her ability to communicate with the horse, I have to also agree with Justdressageit and Allison. You do not need to continuously slap a horse in the face, it was a method that wasn't really working. A sign of madness is to keep doing the same thing when it clearly doesn't work. I believe a far more affective approach to that horse would have been to have kept his hind end moving until he was ready to face up. I also agree that not once did she reward him, there were a couple of times that he backed, and she didn't acknowledge the try at all. Apparently she was supposed to be teaching him to back. Her biggest mistake imo was to change the lesson a little way in, first it was a lesson to back then she seemed to be trying to get the horse to face up and then back and then face up and then back, confused much!? I might be slow but I like to work on one thing at a time. Yes, the horse needs to face up and be respectful, teach that FIRST, then start on the next thing.

This is my own analysis of the video, other people will see other things, coloured by their own experiences.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I would have taken more time to do it and not been so rough but there are a couple of things to consider about this video. First, the video was 5 minutes pieced together over what was probably an hour so there may have been things done that we don't see or times when she let the horse stand and relax. Second, the horse would not be led without walking into and over whoever was leading him and at the end he was considerably more respectful. So while the techniques may not set well with some of you (I don't totally agree with it) it is hard to argue that the horse didn't get better in the time she was working him. I don't know who put the video together but they could have done a better job of showing it in a more positive light. Perhaps the person that posted this did not want it in a more positive light.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Perhaps Kevin, perhaps, that is a good way to look at it and a way that it never occurred to me to look at it... I still disagree with what I saw, but what I saw might have been the whole story...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> I think she stayed pretty calm and did just as much as she needed to get the required response.


She actually looked very angry when horse didn't listen to her. I've seen local NH trainers working with more difficult horses, and they looked way more calm (and efficient) then her. Also I havn't seen the reward (pressure release) for doing something right.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Sincere question - How do people take something like that and then turn it into the 'we train with love' that so many PP (and other NH followers) seem to spew? 
I mean so many NH followers get upset with non-NY people because they do not 'train with love' and are cruel to their horses and use horrible equipment, etc. But some how whacking a horse in the face with a snap and hitting it is different?

(Not commenting on the tape being cruel or not cruel, just asking a question.)

I have met one person in my life that does NH that does not think horse training is all butterflies and rainbows. All the rest get upset and scream 'you are cruel' if you even yank on the lead of your horse wearing a flat nylon halter with a cotton lead. I really do not understand how they can see their leader type doing something like this and then be all butterflies and rainbows. Are they just ignoring this type of stuff?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I have met one person in my life that does NH that does not think horse training is all butterflies and rainbows. All the rest get upset and scream 'you are cruel' if you even yank on the lead of your horse wearing a flat nylon halter with a cotton lead. I really do not understand how they can see their leader type doing something like this and then be all butterflies and rainbows. Are they just ignoring this type of stuff?


Actually I disagree with that. I used 3 NH (2 John Lyons, one CA methods) trainers on my horse and they had no problem to use the stick when needed or to yank on lead if needed. BUT it was just one yank. May be 2. And that was enough for the horse to figure out it's not pleasant. Same with stick. Let the horse run into it couple times and that's enough. May be I am just lucky, but most people I met were reasonable and not call everything cruel.  However if someone would keep yanking on my horse like lady in this video I'd just ask her to leave my barn. Because THAT was very far from what's called training.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Kitten Val maybe that is where the difference is. The one I know that is reasonable is a trainer. He uses a bunch of various NH trainer techniques, does not follow one guru. 
All the other NH people I have encountered (the people who insist those that do NH are nice and never tell their horse to do anything, they ask, etc) are all NH users, not trainers. They aspire to train their own horse using the techniques on the DVDs but....

I just do not understand how they can see something like that and think butterflies and rainbows.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm not sure what on earth site the video is from, but my college network is blocking it! :lol: So... no comment on the video.

I consider myself a practitioner of NH in that I do a fair amount of groundwork, I teach my guys through pressure and release, and I try to think on their terms and in herd dynamics. It is most definitely not rainbows and butterflies 24/7. Some horses need their attention gotten, and there's almost always a "crap stage" where the horse ignores or defies before he submits and follows. I have nothing against a well-timed bump or smack to up the anty if the horse flatly says "no" to whatever I've asked for. The point is in having the good sense to know when and how to do it; the pulling the face and smacking the butt that are being described (again, school blocks the site, I haven't watched it myself) are certainly NOT clarifying anything for the horse.

People see what they want to see, and a lot of people want to see Alec Ramsay galloping down the beach tackless on the Black, or the kid playing chase in the field with Black Beauty. A few good trainers and well trained NH horses can plant that image, and the public at large sees only the end product lightness and softness and thinks that that's the way things are supposed to be from the get go. The establishment of that respect and partnership can look a lot less touchy-feely, depending on the individual situation. I'm not saying that horses need beaten to get respect - far from it - just that a horse who is willfully refusing to respect me will find me demanding harder than a prod with a fingertip and then taking that no for an answer.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Kitten Val maybe that is where the difference is. The one I know that is reasonable is a trainer. He uses a bunch of various NH trainer techniques, does not follow one guru.
> All the other NH people I have encountered (the people who insist those that do NH are nice and never tell their horse to do anything, they ask, etc) are *all NH users, not trainers.* They aspire to train their own horse using the techniques on the DVDs but....
> 
> I just do not understand how they can see something like that and think butterflies and rainbows.


Ha-ha! I see what you mean. That very well could be true. I don't know too many NH followers around, most people I know are either eventing or trail riding and don't care much about NH and such.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> She actually looked very angry when horse didn't listen to her. I've seen local NH trainers working with more difficult horses, and they looked way more calm (and efficient) then her. Also I havn't seen the reward (pressure release) for doing something right.


 
If you look at the video closely she gives a release every time he puts two eyes on her. It just doesn't happen for very long at first. They only get the release when they are doing something right. He stares off at something else and she bumps him with the lead and then he puts his attention on her and she quits, then his eyes wander off and he gets bumped again. I don't see how everybody is missing it. She is really aggressive because he is really disrespectful. Most horses are not that bad which is why most trainers don't have to do that.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> If you look at the video closely she gives a release every time he puts two eyes on her. It just doesn't happen for very long at first. They only get the release when they are doing something right. He stares off at something else and she bumps him with the lead and then he puts his attention on her and she quits, then his eyes wander off and he gets bumped again. I don't see how everybody is missing it. She is really aggressive because he is really disrespectful. Most horses are not that bad which is why most trainers don't have to do that.


My problem is that it's not a 'bump' - she SLAMS on that lead, the metal clasp clunks the horse's face .... she then proceeds to get tangled in the lead and can't control it. I don't see any real release. There's no correct timing. She asks for the horse to yield the hindquarter, gets caught up in the lead again. She asks for more even when the horse is giving her something. 
I'm not all rainbows and butterflies. When my horse, or a horse I'm working with needs a physical reminder, I'm not against getting physical. If that were my horse in the video, I would have hauled my horse out of there so fast.... I am not okay with what was in the video. The horse was obviously green and didn't have much correct training whatsoever. He didn't need to be slammed around like that. I do not condone using a metal clasp when you're swinging the rope around and it's hitting the horse in the face. I was not okay with her slapping the horse in the face to get it to 'yield' the forehand, in my opinion the better way to get a horse to do that is go for the shoulder. The horse looked scared and confused, and rightly so. She changes what she's asking of him so often without warning that he hasn't a clue what he's supposed to do.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> If you look at the video closely she gives a release every time he puts two eyes on her. It just doesn't happen for very long at first. They only get the release when they are doing something right. He stares off at something else and she bumps him with the lead and then he puts his attention on her and she quits, then his eyes wander off and he gets bumped again. I don't see how everybody is missing it. She is really aggressive because he is really disrespectful. Most horses are not that bad which is why most trainers don't have to do that.


Now that you've put your 2 cents in... I went back and rewatched. I see what you are saying and now it makes more sence. Is that the way you would have handled it? Also, a few threads ago you mentioned a book that I should look into regarding ground manners. What was the name of that book again?


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I have this video and you would have to see if from the begining, she obviously didnt just start going at the horse like that. She allowed the owner to try and ask the horse to back up and if I remember the horse was just not respecting that at all.. so she gave him a few other chances to respond to the lighter requests and he was just blowing her off.. so she gave him a good p4 to say hey Im here and you need to do what I say idc if you see another horse over there. I do agree it was dont a little more rougher then it should have been done. The horse then started to go RB [scared] So she needed to snap him out of it.. like when people start to panic ... sometimes they need to be slapped to snap them out of it.. well in a way this was kind of like that. Thats when he faced up... he started to walk away .. and it was basically a repeat. I think linda could have been ALOT calmer about it and taken it a bit slower... but I think her emotions ran away with her.. with the owner being there.. the cameras... all that. Which is no excuse, I know. 

Im only going by memory here. So I could be wrong dont hold me to whats said above LOL I kinda wish spirithorse would jump in cause Im sure she had a better explaination of it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> Now that you've put your 2 cents in... I went back and rewatched. I see what you are saying and now it makes more sence. Is that the way you would have handled it? Also, a few threads ago you mentioned a book that I should look into regarding ground manners. What was the name of that book again?


I would have had the luxury of taking more time and not having to do it all the same day but that is the general idea of what I would have done. I think the book I mentioned was True Horsemanship through Feel by Bill Dorrance and Leslie Desmond. That book has a little different take on the way to fix a problem like the horse in the video but not by alot. Bill states that he doesn't like to jerk on a horse because the pressure is not consistent and the horse doesn't understand it as well but he wouldn't neccfessarily do it any gentler. I just finished reading it and I am now working through it again and trying to understand it a little better. Right now however I would handle it the same way that Linda did and the job would still get done. I might have used a saddle horse to help me push the other around a little.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> She is really aggressive because he is really disrespectful. Most horses are not that bad which is why most trainers don't have to do that.


I have to disagree. I've seen much worse horses and still the trainers were calm and deal with it with less efforts. I've seen it in person with local trainers, at the Expo, and on videos of other trainers. I think JDI put it much better then me about slamming, timing, and so on. You have to be strict with the horses like this one but the whole "training" just doesn't look right. Sorry.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> I think the book I mentioned was True Horsemanship through Feel by Bill Dorrance and Leslie Desmond.


Thanks! I ordered it off amazon just now.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Someone else summed it up quite well on another forum:



> If she was trying to go about capturing his attention and get him to simmer down and respect her space, she was going about it the wrong way. One, forcing a horse to get their heads way up tenses up a lot of muscles that seems to make their brains more tense. She needs to encourage the horse to drop lower, not slap it in the face and make it go higher.
> Also, she was totally oblivious to the fact that the horse was barging his shoulder into her pretty much every time she'd make it circle. She needed to get a closer hold and use his head and neck as a fulcrum to push his shoulder and ribcage away from her, maybe swing the rope under his heartgirth if he didn't move over.
> Those two things by themselves would have had a dramatic effect on that horse's demeanor without playing with his head like she did. She didn't once give him a reason to try for her.





> The horse seemed young, spoiled, ill-mannered and nervous; all are rather easy fixes as long as you remember it's a horse. Those qualities aren't mental illnesses or disorders, but you do have to be smarter than the horse and actually try to help it learn another way to react. To begin with, they might want to work with the horse where there are a few less distractions, you know, crazily set up the situation so the horse could perhaps succeed. And then do something real over the top like reward the horse.


^ I would like to point out this quote; the horse was never set up to succeed. Hot horse that has never been taught properly + distractions + trainer with a temper = setup for failure. 



> I agree that at some point, a horse needs to learn to behave no matter how much energy he/she has. If the horse is ignorant, however, there is no use to make the fight 20X harder by having a horse that is too hot to learn. After you are SURE the horse knows what is being asked if him, you can ask it under more strenuous circumstances.


I point this out because the horse in the video is reacting to HUMAN ERROR. He hasn't been trained properly, and getting 'rough and tough' to make it happen faster when his whole life was the opposite? Kinda unfair.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

A lady on my other forum wrote in to the Parelli team:


> This video was emailed to me: horse-man-**** Video
> 
> I am curious what, exactly, was supposed to be accomplished. There is no release or reward for the horse, no timing with the 'cues' and no clean instruction. The horse gets noticeably more upset and the handling is atrocious and ugly.
> 
> ...


She received this in response:


> Thank you for your questions and concerns!
> 
> We are aware of this video, we are working on it and will be releasing
> a statement soon!
> ...


It should be interesting to see what they have to say. For all the "nicey-nicey" calm, don't-hurt-your-horse attitudes they all have, this video has got to have them up in arms.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> Thanks! I ordered it off amazon just now.


You won't regret it.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> I was not okay with her slapping the horse in the face to get it to 'yield' the forehand, in my opinion the better way to get a horse to do that is go for the shoulder.


This is what I have always done. If I need the horse out of my space or what have you that requires that I get physical with them I use the end of the lead and smack them in the shoulder. Even if they try and bit I never hit the horse in the head or face. I have found it works just as well to hit their shoulder as it dose their face. I also find that if a horse is in my space and I want them out of it. I put pressure on them by hitting them in the shoulder with the lead and walking towards them and use a very stern voice. Do this once or twice and all you need is the stern voice most of the time. Having handled a lot of stallions I pick my badles carfully and I never loose.


I also employee a 3 second rule. IF I can not punish the horse with in 3 seconds of what ever it is they did then I do not do it. The punishement what ever it may be only last 3 seconds and then that is it. I give them a moment to think about it. I have yet to have a horse who did not learn quite quickly this way. Make them think they are going to die with in those 3 seconds and then it is done.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> This is what I have always done. If I need the horse out of my space or what have you that requires that I get physical with them I use the end of the lead and smack them in the shoulder. Even if they try and bit I never hit the horse in the head or face. I have found it works just as well to hit their shoulder as it dose their face. I also find that if a horse is in my space and I want them out of it. I put pressure on them by hitting them in the shoulder with the lead and walking towards them and use a very stern voice. Do this once or twice and all you need is the stern voice most of the time. Having handled a lot of stallions I pick my badles carfully and I never loose.


How many times you need to do it to teach them to respect your space? 10 mins of repeating it 20 times? This horse should be extremely dumb then. Usually one or 2 slaps or rope smack on butt is enough for horse to learn the lesson.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> How many times you need to do it to teach them to respect your space? 10 mins of repeating it 20 times? This horse should be extremely dumb then. Usually one or 2 slaps or rope smack on butt is enough for horse to learn the lesson.


 
In an ideal world, yes, one or two slaps would get the point across. However, I have met horses like the one in the video, sometimes you are working with that horse for quite a while before they can consistently let their guard down. It has nothing to do with being dumb, more insecure and uneducated. Yes, Linda took it too far in the video and confused me at times, but that horse would not have learned with a couple slaps across the butt, there is a little more established damage than that would effectively take care of.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

FlitterBug said:


> In an ideal world, yes, one or two slaps would get the point across. However, I have met horses like the one in the video, sometimes you are working with that horse for quite a while before they can consistently let their guard down.
> 
> *Then maybe it's time to reevaluate what you are doing. There is no such thing as only one approach to a problem. Horses are not dough where a cookie cutter will work every time. If a horse isn't responding, stop, rest and maybe try a different approach. Trainers need lots of techniques in their "bag of tricks". Any trainer who has only one way to train something, is a poor trainer, IMO.
> *
> ...


Bottom line, she gave him no opportunity to understand. I think she seemed more interested in showing off than trying to help the horse understand just what was going on.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I'm sorry, reevaluate what I'm doing? I said that Linda was sloppy and confused me, so why are you attacking me? I just noticed that many people have not come across a horse that is that intense in their defensive patterns, which is exactly what this horse is showing. I was simply saying that it would take more than one or two smacks on the butt to get the point across.

I can't stand Parelli, as my farrier said the other day, Parelli is like Bernie Madoff, except they won't arrest Parelli. I never said that the horse should figure it out where I couldn't, so I have no idea where that one came from. I was simply saying that this horse would require more than the simple one time space reminder, there are underlying problems there that a lot of people aren't seeing. I know Kevin keeps mentioning the dangers behind this horse and he is right, but they aren't from aggression (as he has said), they are from insecurity and defensiveness along with lack of respect of human space.

I always say use as much force as necessary, never more than necessary, and release immediately. I recently taught a clinic at a rescue barn where we get extremes of all measures. One horse is very similar to the one in the video. I didn't use nearly as much flailing as Linda, and I had the horse out of my space calmly in less than 10 seconds, but he came back several times for about a minute. There was a woman there that was bragging about her GP trainer and horse and shows, etc that said she didn't think I had to be so hard on the horse, so I handed her the rope and asked her to show me how she would do it. In less than a minute she was being dragged around the pasture, handed the lead to me and said "I see your point". As soon as I got the horse back he immediately dropped his head, licked and chewed, and relaxed, he didn't even test me again. The woman had been around horses her whole life and had never met something that had been allowed to reach that point before. 

I am not saying Linda did a good job, I was simply saying that the horse was dangerous and it would take more than a slap on the butt to get him out of someones space. No, she didn't do a good job, but this horse is an extreme case, where regular fight flight patterns get tweeked, its obviously out of Linda's range. Its a flightly horse with no respect for human space, which means when it gets scared, it lands on top of you. Her signals were so mixed up the horse made much slower progress than necessary, I was just replying to the comment about the horse being dumb if it required more than a slap or two, so please don't twist words and make it sound like I expect horses to be cookie cutter or something along those lines, its actually exactly the opposite.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

FlitterBug said:


> I am not saying Linda did a good job, *I was simply saying that the horse was dangerous and it would take more than a slap on the butt to get him out of someones space. * No, she didn't do a good job, *but this horse is an extreme case,* where regular fight flight patterns get tweeked, its obviously out of Linda's range. Its a flightly horse with no respect for human space, which means when it gets scared, it lands on top of you. Her signals were so mixed up the horse made much slower progress than necessary, I was just replying to the comment about the horse being dumb if it required* more than a slap or two*, so please don't twist words and make it sound like I expect horses to be cookie cutter or something along those lines, its actually exactly the opposite.


You see, I have dealt with far worse, doing far less, and had a happy, relaxed and cooperative horse afterward. 

We will all just have to use our own methods to gain our objectives. Yes, there will always be damaged horses out there for me to fix. Many of them damaged by heavy handed training methods. And no...I am not saying that you are that type of trainer, so relax.


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## Madyson (Aug 27, 2009)

The black dressage horse wasn't even on the bit?


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

Found this on another site. . .the results from the Parelli Competition Team's most recent show. I found it rather humorous, actually. . .they brag about a bunch of first place ribbons, when it turns out that the Parelli riders who won First Place were the only riders in their class. . .:lol:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The show was a wonderful success. The team entered a total of 18 classes and brought home 18 ribbons total: four 4th place, four 3rd place, four 2nd place, six 1st place and one Championship. 

Opportunity USEF Training Level Test 3-Open
(C) Anderson,
1 Bliss Wargovich Leonardo 63.200%
2 Sussanne Neff Maile 60.400%
3 Mattie Coward AR Especial 57.600%
4 Lyndsey Fitch Peanut 56.400%
here are 3 of the ribbons, they competed against each other, but another person took first :lol:

Here's how they took a first place:
Opportunity USEF First Level Test 1-Open
(C) Anderson,
1 Emily Thompson Porsche 61.667%she was the only rider. :lol:
And 4 other ribbons-how better to get them all than to be the only one in the class!

FEI Para Equestrian TOC
(C) Rogers,
1 Lauren Barwick Hungarian Cayenne 71.429%
2 Lauren Barwick Hungarian Cayenne 71.176%
3 Lauren Barwick Maile 70.952%
4 Lauren Barwick Maile 70.476%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Jolly Badger said:


> Found this on another site. . .the results from the Parelli Competition Team's most recent show. I found it rather humorous, actually. . .they brag about a bunch of first place ribbons, when it turns out that the Parelli riders who won First Place were the only riders in their class. . .:lol:
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The show was a wonderful success. The team entered a total of 18 classes and brought home 18 ribbons total: four 4th place, four 3rd place, four 2nd place, six 1st place and one Championship.
> ...





The judge was VERY generous even with 1 entry in the class..

If they competed in many other open competitions the scores would have been a lot less.


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