# How low is too low?



## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

Their poll should never be go below the saddle. But the headset has nothing to do with the horse being on/behind/in front of the bit. You want the their head to be perpendicular to the ground and them to be pushing forward from their hindquarters. Someone will explain it better than that I'm sure.


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

actually, i think you've explained it pretty well supermane


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

AQHA says that the poll should never be below the withers and I agree that that is the lowest that should ever be.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

my ottb did that as well ... i started using draw reigns with her and how her headset looks like:










i know some people don't like using aids but i want her to learn the right head set and i don't ride everyday or always with draw reigns so that she is learning to hold her head on her own ...


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## equinkel (Oct 25, 2008)

I don't know much about draw reins but I will definitly look into it. What type of bit did you go with? Your horse looks great, how long have you had him/her?


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## Andi (Aug 20, 2008)

Also, be aware that while riding your horse you can't see them from the side, so if the horse always holds its head high when he drops it the head may feel lower than it actually is. 

I don't know how much your horse has done but if you are just starting him off the track its more important getting him relaxed and stretched out than having the "correct" head position. On the other hand having his head too low may make it harder for you to give rein aids, and he may just be avoiding you, it will also negatively effect his balance. 

With my past horses when they were doing similar things or avoiding things I found circles helped. I find circles actually help almost anything. But keeping him light on the rein and guiding him around turns and figure eights should help him to keep his head up as he will have to keep his balance more. For me horses shouldn't really be pulling at all, there should be a contact, but the horse should be holding itself up not leaning on your reins.


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## IrishRider (Aug 7, 2008)

My horse started doing that to me too. She would pull her head down at the canter and go faster, basically running away with me a bit. She would yank down and then I would lose the leverage that I needed to be able to sit up and pull to halt her. I know a lot of people, like another poster said, don't like aids, but I feel that sometimes they can be necessary (even for just a little bit), to help the rider correct a problem. So, I tried her out in a corkscrew bit and have not had any problems since. In fact, she is softer and lighter and we have never meshed better. I have gone back to the d-ring snaffle and she does fine and if she starts to get heavy again I switch the bit back. If your horse is not respecting your cues to stop or slow down, you need to change something and gain that respect back. Good luck.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

Equinel-

I have had her a year and am so lucky with how willing she is. I use a 3 piece snaffle, the more you pull on a race horse that faster they go so I try and use a softer bit so that if I do pull on her a little, I am not giving her the wrong idea. 

one i use looks like this with a slow twist:
Pony Twisted Eggbutt Full Cheek Snaffle Bit Horse Bit - Dover Saddlery.

the three piece i use looks like this but with eggbutt sides not loose rings:
French Training Loose Ring Snaffle Horse Bit - Dover Saddlery...

Here is a link for draw reings (if you need more explanation on them let me know, id be happy to help)
Leather Draw Reins With Snaps - Dover Saddlery.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

good luck!


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## equinkel (Oct 25, 2008)

I'm going to ride again on Monday so we'll see how he does at the canter. I had to take a little break b/c I pulled a muscle in my leg. All I've been able to do is walk and barely trot. However, this might have been the best thing for both of us. He is really softing up in the trot. I also realized that I was doing something wrong. When we were walking around I was dropping the reins too much and everytime I asked him to go faster I would collect the reins flaring them out before I grabbed them. So he started to realize that everytime I did that he would take a hold of the bit and pull. Rookie mistake... LOL.


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## Patagonia (Nov 6, 2008)

*Equinkel*

Hello, I was reading your concerns and I hope that my suggestion helps. I used to have the same problem with my horse. He would get very heavy in front, more in the canter then the trot. The problem was that I rode too much with my hand and not enough with my leg. When a horse gets heavy it's because he is able to lean on your hand. This prevents him from balancing himself and for you to be more in your seat...you're probably leaning more on your knee rather then sitting deep in your seat. It took me a long time to retrain my hands and ride more off my leg. When your horse gets heavy and fast try this: pitch your reins at him (even though he will get fast) sit down and bump him with your legs. Your legs raise your horses head. You CAN NOT pull! Horses want to go slow. Remember hands forward and bump with legs until head rises. Bumping is a training aid...not something for the show ring. Oh, most importantly, please try not increase the severity of his bit. People like to do that first. My horse goes in a D ring snaffle with copper inlay and hes just fine. I don't like riding in draw reins because I'm scared I will get to hand-on, so I lunge in side reins a few times a week to make him stay soft on the bit himself and to stay balanced. Good Luck!


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## ScarlettPompey (Oct 14, 2008)

Great reply Patagonia...

Might add my twopence worth.

Difficult to say why he's doing this without seeing him. However, it's typically due to horses riding too much on the forehand.
If it is this - I would strongly reccommend not using draw reins, as they allow the horse rely on them for balancing. They are great for building muscle, but only once the horse has relaxed the underneath of his neck and can carry himself from behind.

First, I would trot your horse whilst standing in the stirrups and encouraging him to stretch down - this frees up his back and allows him to step under. If he's not tracking, then give a series of gentle taps with the schooling whip.
Once balanced, step into canter. Don't worry overly about getting the correct shape; instead sit back - don't let him pull you forwards... if your seat is vertical (or even a little too far back), the horse will find it difficult to drop onto his forehand.
Then ride with the leg aids: ensure legs are wrapped around the horses barrel. My instructor says it should work by a near inperceptable squeeze inward at the point all four legs are 'suspended', relaxing when they strike the ground. It should feel like you're 'lifting' the horse.
Again gentle taps with the schooling whip should help them engage their inside hind leg.

This should free up his head, and get him balanced, and a more comfortable ride for you!


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## WesternPleasure27 (Nov 9, 2008)

How low is "too low" all depends on the type of riding you are doing.
Are you a dressage rider? H/J? HUS?


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## equinkel (Oct 25, 2008)

If I'm understand the advice from Patagonia: I should 'pitch' the reins at him to pick up his head and signal with the legs. I'm pretty sure this will cause him to go much faster and race around the ring. I'm ok with trying that but at some point I need to slow him down. what would be the best way to do that without pulling? Also, I would like to do this in a trot but I'm sure it will make him go faster and his nice slow trot will be fast and uncontrolled. Is it better to just let him rush around? As far as the reins go did you keep them pretty collected or give more rein? There are times when he's pulling down enough that it's pulling my whole body forward.

For ScarlettPompey; you said to encourage him to stretch low while standing to trot...that parts easy. How do I get his head back up? It doesn't seem like a good idea to make him go faster when his nose is a foot and half from the ground. You are definitly right about him being heavy on the forehand though. 
Thanks for you help. I be riding again tomorrow. I'll keep you posted on progress.


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## equinkel (Oct 25, 2008)

as far as a discipline. All i know is that I want to start him over some jumps. Other then being heavy in the bit he has been a perfect angel for a retired racehorse!


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## ScarlettPompey (Oct 14, 2008)

Maybe, I should have emphasized the 'leg' bit! 

Was trying to describe the feeling of 'lifting' with an inward 'squeeze' with legs at the moment of suspension... takes a bit of timing. It literally feels like your lifting the horse. Essentially working him from the leg aids; if he gets heavy apply more leg aid... don't worry too much if it's a little quick to start with, just use you seat (by restricting the rocking movement to slow him down). If he lowers his head again, immediately respond with the leg aids.

Getting the stretch beforehand was important (even with horses where head is too low)...
1. To stretch the back, so he can step more 'under' himself (for the lifting)
2. Balancing and calming before the canter
3. Demonstrating the correct head position, so you and the horse get to 'feel' what is correct and comfrtable.


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## Patagonia (Nov 6, 2008)

If I'm understand the advice from Patagonia: I should 'pitch' the reins at him to pick up his head and signal with the legs. I'm pretty sure this will cause him to go much faster and race around the ring. I'm ok with trying that but at some point I need to slow him down. what would be the best way to do that without pulling? Also, I would like to do this in a trot but I'm sure it will make him go faster and his nice slow trot will be fast and uncontrolled. Is it better to just let him rush around? As far as the reins go did you keep them pretty collected or give more rein? There are times when he's pulling down enough that it's pulling my whole body forward.

I understand the uncertainty in this. I am sure that your horse will get quicker and race around the ring. Horses are very smart animals. They will try to 'bate' you into doing things so that they won't have to: as in balancing off your hand rather then learning to balance himself. I am not going to say that your horse will slow down tomorrow. It takes time and consistency. Try your best not to circle. Just go forward, sit deep and remember to keep your shoulders back and eyes up. Does your horse want to go forward and lean on your hand from the start of the ride? I am not a fan of people who get on their horse and start cantering BUT sometimes with younger horses you just need to go forward. And I spent a lot of time just getting on and going forward. A horse can't collect if he isn't balanced. Make him work...it's like reverse psychology. He wants to go fast then ask him to go forward but don't hold him up! do not collect him...light contact. While you are doing this, light contact, think even less contact. you need to ride off your leg not your hand.


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## Patagonia (Nov 6, 2008)

Oh I just want to mention that all horses learn at different speeds. So do the riders. Patience makes a great horseman. I know that I want to do a lot more with my horse but a solid foundation...or better yet, each layer, will be beneficial for the higher degree of difficulties to come. Does that make sense?


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## equinkel (Oct 25, 2008)

I worked on a lot of cantering today and my guy was still leaning on the bit alot. I did try pitching the reins when we trotted and i thought that helped. I had not cantered on him in over a week so he started out really fast and he was coming off the rail but bending out (nose to the rail). I decided to just give him the reins and stop fighting with him and he actually slowed down and got back to the rail. I think my balance if a little off and my hand inconsistency is making the pulling a little worse. I will keep giving more rein and more leg aids. Keep the advice coming. I'll try to post a video soon.


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## Patagonia (Nov 6, 2008)

I am really glad to hear that he slowed down. Just stick with this. I forgot to ask how old is your horse? Did you also say he came off the track?


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## Vicizmax (Aug 11, 2008)

*This is a perfect example:*
http://www.ponnistallen.com/dressur_picture6.jpg

The horses forhead/nose, whatever you call the front of the horses head, should be completely vertical. Under the bit means the horse is looking more down, so the front of the head is more horizontal than vertical. The horse has to bend its neck, but its nose has to stay up!

*Another example:*
http://www.kyrak.com/images/MaxAachen1.JPG
-See how the neck is curved but the front of the head is vertical?  So you can almost say you're not making the horses head go down, you are curving the neck, and making the horse go more "together".

*The "Lowest":*
http://www.hesteriet.dk/pages/AnreasHelgstrand1.jpg
-This is another example, you can see the horses head is a little more horizontal. This is not wrong, but it shouldnt go lower than this!! The other 2 examples are better than this one.

Hope that helped! If you need more help I can always find more pictures of how it is when its wrong and right.


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## equinkel (Oct 25, 2008)

He is 5 1/2. Yes, he was a racehorse but he's had a year off. Now he's doing some different things to avoid the bit. When he drifts off the rail he will bend his nose to the rail but his body has an inside inside bend. If I tug on the outside rein he will turn his nose out but he keeps drifting in.


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## knaskedov (Jul 24, 2008)

I use draw reins on my OTTB as well. There doesn't need to be any tension on them, just the idea is enough to keep his head down. I alternate with and without the extra reins to not become dependant on them and he is doing better every day. Starship is easiest to bend during walk and canter, trot is very hard on him. I take lessons once every 2 weeks and my instructor tells me it is easier to get his head back up then it is to get it down, so we're working on getting his head down (better for back muscles) and if we go too far, we'll go back up. He goes down a lot easier on a long rein, if I shorten them too much he starts pulling and speeds up. Must be a leftover from his racing days...
Here is what he looked like during our last show: Zenfolio | Todd Naskedov | Our Kids (Pentax K10D), I don't have any pictures with the extra reins.


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## knaskedov (Jul 24, 2008)

I didn't see the part about him being very fast, sorry, should have read all the messages, just get excited when I see OTTB.
Starship used to want to go only fast too and it took a while to get it out of him (sometimes he still does). I found that every time it was my own fault, I was getting too tense. When I pull, he pulls harder, when I tense up, so does he. We are getting along so much better since I figured this out, as long as I stay calm and relaxed, so does he.


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## fedex (Nov 14, 2008)

karley.hall said:


> my ottb did that as well ... i started using draw reigns with her and how her headset looks like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
"learn the right headset" is what bothered me. Draw reins can help your horse feel where you're asking them to be, but it should not be used as a primary training device. 
I find that draw reins, in the wrong hands (not saying you  ) can be dangerous and used incorrectly. This can cause the horse to have a false "headset". In general, I hate the term headset, although I know what you are getting at. Back on topic.... Draw reins can cause the horse to be behind the bit. If they are used correctly, the horse will feel that it is more comfortable to be where you are directing them. Their reward is less tension on their mouth, instead of the constant pull or see-saw, as some people tend to turn to when training head carriage.


OP: It is all right for your horse to stretch long and low.









Simple picture from Google images, you can see that the horse is relaxed and supple. That is more than acceptable for warming up, since many riders do not have a horse that is willing/understands the concept of stretching.

But, if your horse is carrying himself on his forehand, it would feel downhill and unbalanced. That could explain his head being "too low." If that occurs, you need to make sure that you are not in front of his motion, leaning/falling on his front end. If your hands are too heavy, he could be balancing on them and not using his topline and back correctly. If you were to suddenly drop your hands, you'd find yourself on the ground over his head.

Hw should move freely, with his back end engaged and working. After that moment of feeling his unbalanced frame, you should take away all devices (draw reins, martingales, etc.) and go back to a simple snaffle. Walk up hills, and down hills, if they are available to you. When you have the connection, and your horse is on the bit correctly, you will feel everything fall into place.

I hope that helped. I said a lot


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

I ment the right head set for the job, you are right that there isn't one correct head set but from what she was wanting i thought that they would help. And yes i would agree 100% that in the wrong hands, draw reins can be harmful. 

Like i said before I don't use them every day, actually i haven't used them in a week and a half and used them Sunday for the first time in that week and a half. Its more like training wheels, you have to have a foundation and most OTTB don't do well with you pulling on their mouth, on the track that means go faster. So when the tension is coming from themselves, i have found that it helps ... i will be more careful with my words next time. 

But thank you for correcting me.


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## fedex (Nov 14, 2008)

I hope you didn't think I was criticizing! 
I too, find that draw reins can be effective when used correctly. And I liked what you said about your horse realizing the tension is coming from himself.
I find that Maverick has a beautiful headset naturally that is comfortable for him. He is quite round in frame, although he tends to get heavy on his forehand. Draw reins are too much of a crutch for him, as soon as I take them off, his old habits are back. So I like to let him carry himself comfortably, which is more attractive than his training before in draw reins. 

I also think longing in side reins is helpful. Again, used correctly, and not always.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

glad we are on the same page


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## equinkel (Oct 25, 2008)

*video*

Here are two videos so you guys can see what I'm talking about. The video was a real eye opener. I couldn't believe how off balance and hunched over I looked. Anyway, you can see how he gets heavy in the bit, although today he was the best he's been (guess he knew the camera was going) You can also see how he starts to drift off the rail. I find it hard to balance myself in the seat while he's drifting.
Trot




Canter


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

yeah your leaning forward might be affecting his balance too ... also your hands tend to get a little high try and remember to keep them down 

is there someone who you can take lessons from? like you noticed, from the ground you can see a lot more (then how you feel on your horse).

just some thoughts


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## fedex (Nov 14, 2008)

Wow, you are really leaning forward! Is there a reason? That's not half-seat, or even two-point. 

You said your guy gets heavy on the forehand. If you lean on him like that, he has no other choice. That's A LOT of extra weight that needs to be back so he can use his back and haunches. 

Also, you need to be softer with your hands. You're using them to post, which is really a bad habit :/ it's not fair to his mouth.

I really think that both you and him would benefit from having a trainer there with you, if you don't already have one. It's hard to train a greenie as it is, and without proper training, it can be even more difficult.

Now that said, it sounds harsh. However, without training, habits that you are not aware of can train him to move a certain way that is hard to undo. So I'd look into a trainer


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Honestly, before worrying about headset with your horse I would be concerned about getting correct in the saddle.
Horses are our mirrors when we ride them so we can't expect them to be doing anything right when we ourselves are not solid in our own position and aids. I assume your horse, or a school horse at your stable lunges. You should be riding on the lunge line until you at least have enough balance, and good enough equitation to be able to walk trot and canter safely and quietly without stirrups and reins.


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## equinkel (Oct 25, 2008)

I appreciate the feedback. I do have an instructor once a week. I do realize that I'm leaning forward way too much. I think some of the reason this happens is because my horse is not very responsive to leg pressure and I feel like I have to lower myself in order to get the leg control that it takes to push him back to the rail. He's not like a lesson horse that just goes around in a perfect circle like a robot. His speeds vary, he pulls on the reins, he comes off and on the rail... 
I know I'm taking a chance by training him on my own but that's why I pay a million dollars a month in board, so I can have my own project. I have such a nice horse I think he will put up with some bad form for a few weeks while I fix myself. I plan on wowing everyone with my improved video in a few weeks!
I do appreciate the advice.


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## fedex (Nov 14, 2008)

All right! 

You take advice so well, you genuinely want to improve which is sometimes hard to come across.


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## Patagonia (Nov 6, 2008)

He is very handsome!

After watching the videos, there is a couple of things that I would suggest to work on. One would be your equitation. You are tall and slender. You need to look like that on your horse...don't be in a crunched position. Practise your equitation at the walk. Your shoulders, hips and heels should be in a straight line. He is not as forward as I thought, due to previous posts, which is nice to see. I think your horse moves off the rail because a. he is not listening to your left leg and b. you are pulling too much with your right rein. Next time he moves off the rail think... inside rein, inside leg...no pulling on the outside...horses move away from pressure. 

One last thing I would like to mention is that you have to remember that you are the leader. Be confident in your decisions and what you are asking him to do. He doesn't want the responsibility to make decisions but if you give him the opportunity to, he won't make the correct ones. Hence...drifting off the rail. You need to ride every step he takes. Good Luck!


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## equinkel (Oct 25, 2008)

Ok, interesting advice with the inside rein. I kept pulling on the outside rein and using inside leg. I thought the inside rein would cause him come in more. I like the tips!


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## hrsrdr (Jul 12, 2008)

Ya, I use a "corkscrew" bit for my TB, too (slow-twist eggbutt snaffle), but just because I am a slight, light rider and he is a huge horse! I think that any training aid is just fine, as long as it isn't used as a "shortcut" through the slower, more proper training, and is used only just as much as it is needed.

I've always been taught that the poll should be the highest point of the bend in the neck...some riders actually fracture the vertebrae in their horses' necks because of overflexion!


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## bgood400 (Nov 10, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> AQHA says that the poll should never be below the withers and I agree that that is the lowest that should ever be.


Actually im pretty sure it is if the tip of the ear goes below the wither. Its a deduction if the tip of the ear is lower than that for however many strides.
I don't think they should be any lower than that. The lower the head you normally have more problems with the horse being heavy on the forehand.


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