# My beef with dressage



## Jubilee Rose

I agree, that yes, lots of dressage riders are leaving traditional, "classical" methods behind for "quicker fixes." There are so many modern methods that leave so much to be desired. Yes, the horse can do a fancy piaffe, but is he working out of fear? I love dressage, and really admire the classical way of doing things. Its very proper and takes lots of long work and effort, but results in a beautiful partnership between horse and rider, which I think is what dressage should be. But I think that dressage isn't the only type of sport that has gotten too competitive. Showjumping is the same way, as well as many other disciplines. It is sad.


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## Spyder

ponyboy said:


> Would we be hearing about trainers using hot wire to teach piaffe?


Never heard of this ever used and it would serve no useful purpose. Reference please.



ponyboy said:


> The horses that have been doing dressage the longest, and thus the ones that do it the most naturally, are andalusians and their close relatives (of which the lipizzanner is one). Warmbloods only became popular for dressage because competitive dressage started in Germany where warmbloods are common.


Respectfully disagree 



ponyboy said:


> There seems to be an attitude among riders (and it can be a problem in all disciplines) that tackling hard cases - horses that don't do what we want them to do very easily, either because of talent or temperament - makes one a better rider and is something to be proud of. But our horses would be much happier if we took the path of least resistance and did with them what they do most naturally.


Really, not that I ever heard (other than cowboys in rodeos)



ponyboy said:


> The bottom line really is that dressage was not meant to be a competitive sport, and it's being ruined because of it.


Tell that to calvary riders



ponyboy said:


> ALL disciplines have the potential to be inhumane if the people doing them get caught up in competition. I fear that dressage riders are losing sight of what the discipline is really supposed to be about, yet because of the noble reputation dressage has many of them don't think twice about whether what they're doing is really good for their horses.


There may be a few but there ARE only a few, just like any other discipline.


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## Miss Katie

What about showjumpers who deliberatly approach a fence in a way that the horse cant help but hit it, or put subtances on the cannons to make them much more sensitive?

Or showies who think its fashionable to yank their horses head "onto the bit", and judges who reward them for doing this?

And how about quarter horse/ paint people who think its nice to breed horses with genetic abnormalities.

There are other examples.


There are these type of people in all disciplines, and it is unfair of you to single out one discipline as being wrong when it is happening all around.


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## Jubilee Rose

I don't think ponyboy meant to single out dressage explicitly, as the ONLY discipline which does this. He said, "ALL disciplines have the potential to be inhumane." Dressage is just the issue he chose to talk about. :wink:


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## upnover

You bring up some really good points. I completely agree that money/winning/etc can get in the way of good solid training and riding methods and lots of people have lost sight of what's important. My first thought is, what discipline DOESN'T have this? But really, what hobby/sport/whatever in the world doesn't do it?! How many professional baseball players got caught (or didn't get caught) using steriods to enhance performance? How many people out there get screwed because a charity decided to run itself like a business and care more about how much money they were going to make? Unfortunately it's a part of life. NOT saying it's right. But is baseball bad because people cheat? Are charities a bad idea because people are greedY? No, you try to fix the problems with it and enchance the good. 

You're right, a horse doesn't automatically know how to be completely balanced on its own. But... it isn't "natural" for us to ride it at all. Every riding horse out there is spending a lot of energy doing things they don't normally do and probably can't understand the purpose of. But my opinion is that, it's ok. A lot of riding horses out there don't hate life. It's not natural for a horse to go jump a course, but I see jumpers who absolutely love what they do. Sure, there are days when my horse would rather sit in his stall and eat rather then work in the ring. But I spend a lot of time and energy and money making sure he's healthy, and fed, and taken care of. I do my part. He does his. And we're both pretty happy with our deal. For an upper level competition horse, they have to love their job. Dressage is all about being supple, submissive, and moving freely, etc etc. I don't see a dressage horse that hates his job being able to do it well. If being ridden is such a negative experience, horses will show it. (and some of them do)



ponyboy said:


> 1) When you pick the horse with the most natural talent, you can use gentler training methods and equipment and 2) the longer a horse has been bred to do a certain thing, the happier they will be doing it.


I disagree with you on both of these statements. While they can be true in certain situations, are definately not blanket statements. 

1. When you pick a horse that has the conformation and personality that is most suitable for your discipline, it CAN be easier to train it because it is easier for the horse to do it's job. But there are grand prix jumpers that are extremely difficult to ride and train but are superb at what they do. Sometimes that boldness and bit of fight in them that make them so successful is also what makes them difficult. And I'm pretty sure they don't use the most gentle of tack. Perhaps it's off topic since you're talking dressage, but I think the same idea applies. 

2. Heck no. Conformation and personality on an individual basis. I could care less about breeds, as long as they can do the job I need them to. My old welsh/QH pony that I bought in a pasture for next to nothing has won almost every single dressage class he's ever entered. Sure, there are certain breeds and certain lines that excel in certain disciplines. But I know a very fancy absolutely beautiful 17.2 Oldenburg with nothing but stellar dressage breeding, tons of full siblings that show and win, etc etc.... with no work ethic. I think he'd be happiest being a trail horse. 

just my few thoughts.


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## KGImages

I disagree totally.
As Dressagerider myself, hot wire for training Piaffe?
I thought jumping was bad (Spikes on fences etc.).
And about Rollkur, if used the right way the horse will, no harm will be done.
If pulled when a rider is totally losing it, then something will happen.
My horses like dressage, how do you see it? They work with me. Otherwise I would be doing something else along time ago. It is a search to find the RIGHT horse. 
Dressage can be competitive. I can tell that myself. But, you need competition to get to the top, how else should you get their? Riding competitions alone?

You've got the totally wrong idea of Dressage!
If you read some ridiculous book about his, then amen to you.
When taught the right way:
Dressage is seeing the harmony between rider and horse.
Not everyone is perfect in Dressage. We have all once pulled in a horses mouth. We know not to do it again. Dressage can't be as gracefull as it should be. Every horse has a different character, the world goes on.


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## Miss Katie

Well said.


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## Equuestriaan

Ooh, I think I should write a rant now. Interesting point of view. I'm not a dressage person so I don't take offense. I do think forcing a horse into a frame isn't natural, and when you bring in equipment and harsh mechanisms to do so, such as extreme bits, Rollkur, etc, it's going beyond what horse and rider are meant to do.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

OK, first of all just because SOME riders abuse their horses does not mean ALL riders in the discipline do. This does not make it a "bad discipline" because some riders choose to train improperly.

Also, I feel the same way you do about top riders using these "quick-fix" training methods. BUT instead of sitting on an internet forum complaining about it I'm actually trying to fix it by supporting the dressage community around me that uses non-abusive training methods and belonging to dressage groups internationally and regularly voting on issues.

(This will be edited to add when I get back from classes)


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## farmpony84

While I have never heard of hotwiring a horse to get the piaffe, I don't doubt that it has been done. I think if you look hard enough into any and all riding methods, you'll find some bad. EVERYWHERE. There are always cheaters in this world that will go to abusive lengths to get what they want. 

The OP doesn't say anywhere that all dressage riders use abusive training techniques so please do not attack, They've left the door wide open for a really great debate so let's stay on topic.

I do not agree with the statement that dressage horses are "the most trained" or talented horses. There are so many horses that are trained in so many ways, western reiners, western pleasure, dressage, even some of the higher level jumpers have some pretty extensive training. 

As for dressage, it's pretty impressive to watch, it isn't easy to do, the rider has to have a really good understanding of what they are doing. I agree it has really changed over the years. We keep asking more and more of our horses and really forcing them to pull all of their talents together. 

What are you riding now Ponyboy?


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## Strange

I agree with what most of the above posters have said, but I would also like to point out that all movements in dressage occur naturally. Whether it is a stallion prancing in place to show off to a brood of mares, or colts in a field doing lead changes, none of the movements are unnatural, what happens in dressage is that the horse learns to do them on cue and while having a rider on its back, which is where the true balance comes in.


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## tawariel

I agree with Strange: all these movements are natural. dressage is dancing. and very much horses love it. if they would really hate it, they wouldn´t do it. 
of course there are the extreme riders but - as said before - they are in all disciplines and you can´t accuse dressage as being bad. blame the riders not the discipline! i ride dressage myself. I love it, my horse also and I use neither spurs nor rollkur nor hot wire or something else. dressage is harmony and you wouldn´t achieve harmony by pain.


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## JustDressageIt

Once again, please do NOT lump all dressage riders together. There are many types and thoughts and methods... we don't all get along.


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## welshy

JustDressageIt said:


> Once again, please do NOT lump all dressage riders together. There are many types and thoughts and methods... we don't all get along.


yeh i agree, there is much cruelty in the world for example, but just because one person beats,neglects and abuses their horse doesn't mean the rest of us do. So please DON'T stereotype.

I do agree with your idea that some dressage riders are developing new ways to train the horse quicker, to make more money.

And as for the breeds that have done dressage the longest are the best at dressage i don't totally agree. I thought it would be more down to the conformation of the individual horse.

off topic but i do think the spanish riding school is pretty amazing.


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## ponyboy

Let's see if I can quickly address some comments.

Yes, every discipline has its issues. The problem is not many people are talking about the issues in dressage, and dressage has always billed itself as being a gentle discipline. Jumping is about clearing fences... Jumpers don't claim it's anything more special than that. That's not the case with dressage. 

Yes all dressage movements are natural, but not in the context or for the length of time that we ask a horse to do them.

Somebody mentioned natural ability in relation to willingness. I totally agree that temperament counts for a lot. Jumpers have a history of not bothering to breed for temperament and I think that's a shame.

What am I riding right now? I haven't ridden since last June and I'll be lucky if I can afford to ride again within the next five years. I used to mostly jump but not competitively. I also did dressage up to the level of flying changes, shoulder-in, half-pass, and a little bit of working walk/trot.


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## Spyder

ponyboy said:


> Yes, every discipline has its issues. The problem is not many people are talking about the issues in dressage, and dressage has always billed itself as being a gentle discipline. Jumping is about clearing fences... Jumpers don't claim it's anything more special than that. That's not the case with dressage.


You obviously have never been to the Ultimate Dressage site or Chronicle of the horse site. Be prepared to argue dressage to the point of watching videos with microscopes. Just beware of the denizens that lurk there. :shock: 




ponyboy said:


> What am I riding right now? I haven't ridden since last June and I'll be lucky if I can afford to ride again within the next five years. I used to mostly jump but not competitively. I also did dressage up to the level of flying changes, shoulder-in, half-pass, and a little bit of working walk/trot.


Hmmmmm the above movements range from training to level 3.....do you know what level you were riding?


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## JustDressageIt

I strongly stand by the comment that "all jumpers are dressage horses, but not all dressage horses are jumpers."
Dressage is an essential basis to most good riding.
Jumping is SO much more than just "point and shoot."


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## RockinTheBit07

JustDressageIt said:


> I strongly stand by the comment that "all jumpers are dressage horses, but not all dressage horses are jumpers."
> Dressage is an essential basis to most good riding.
> Jumping is SO much more than just "point and shoot."


 
I whole heartedly agree!!! I see western riders practicing low level dressage to get their horses able to do w/e it is they do. 

Jumpers are way more than just clearing the fences, if you dont have a horse that can flex and bend/balance itself then the horse could not make tight turns or stand on all 4 feet to jump after that tight turn. Also they have to be able to switch leads quickly and sooo much more!! I hate when people claim Jumpers are easy and not difficult, i think jumping/ cross country are two of the most intimidating disciplines..... just my 2 cents....


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## shmurmer4

K, all the people who ride dressage and such opinions are biased.


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## Spyder

shmurmer4 said:


> K, all the people who ride dressage and such opinions are biased.


Interesting.

I started out as a jumper. Changed to dressage. Added western pleasure and games. Did the hunter under saddle and hack and added the sideline of breeding.

Care to tell me where my bias is?


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## ~*~anebel~*~

shmurmer4 said:


> K, all the people who ride dressage and such opinions are biased.


I will have you know that I have trained and shown in hunters, jumpers, reining and tried my hand at many other disciplines (including many western events). I also owned a cow horse for 8 years. So it's actually you that's biased 


Ponyboy, I invite you to go watch a clinic or symposium with Axel Steiner, rolkur's arch enemy. He is the only judge at the 2005 FEI dressage world cup that did not place Anky first in the final, and good on him.
I also agree with Spyder that even going to look at the UltimateDressage board might give you a further appreciation for dressage beyond the level (whichever one that might be) that you have ridden it.


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## farmpony84

He had a little smiley face Spydey! I think he was being silly.... You know... saying people that ride a specific disipline are bias to that discipline...  (I'm to lazy to get out of this quick response and give you a super cool smiley)

I started dressage and tehn I was a hunt rider for years. It's funny the hunt stuff was way different... they made me think I didn't really know that much when the truth was, I probably had learned more in my first three years of riding dressage... I lost so much knowledge doing "local" hunt. I'm not talking the higher level hunt where people use collection and balance and ride on the bit, I'm talking local hunt where the horses fly around the ring on the forehand w/ their little noses turned slightly to the outside...

I changed to QH style hunt and found out just how little I really knew. A couple years later I switched to western pleasure and found out that I knew even less then I thought! Most people have no idea what a fine line there is between dressage and western pleasure... It's pretty neat.

I love that people are so passionate about their specific styles of riding...


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## Spyder

farmpony84 said:


> He had a little smiley face Spydey! I think he was being silly.... You know... saying people that ride a specific disipline are bias to that discipline...  (I'm to lazy to get out of this quick response and give you a super cool smiley)


 
I thought that was possible but thought I would post anyways to let ponyboy realize that while we may lean toward one discipline, that it is not the only one that myself and others have some knowledge in here.


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## farmpony84

I'm mad! I have been a good girl! I havent stolen any carrots, I haven't even been using the carrot locator and I've been posting and moderating...and the carrot bandit just got me!!!! MAD NOW!

Anyway, back on topic. That was actually a good thought Spyder because it's true. Many people are passionate about one specific discipline and that usually is their "main event" but as you say, most of us have knowledge and experience in a wide range of equestrien activities... You are one smart Spyder!


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## shmurmer4

if you enjoy dressage your opinion is biased. I don't care about your background, it is a simple fact.


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## shmurmer4

*bi⋅as*

    /ˈbaɪ







əs/ Show Spelled Pronunciation  [bahy-uh







s] Show IPA Pronunciation  
noun, adjective, adverb, verb, bi⋅ased, bi⋅as⋅ing or (especially British







) bi⋅assed, bi⋅as⋅sing. –noun 1. an oblique or diagonal line of direction, esp. across a woven fabric. 2. a particular tendency or inclination, esp. one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice. 3. Statistics. a systematic as opposed to a random distortion of a statistic as a result of sampling procedure. 4. Lawn Bowling. a. a slight bulge or greater weight on one side of the ball or bowl. b. the curved course made by such a ball when rolled. 5. Electronics. the application of a steady voltage or current to an active device, as a diode or transistor, to produce a desired mode of operation. 6. a high-frequency alternating current applied to the recording head of a tape recorder during recording in order to reduce distortion. –adjective 7. cut, set, folded, etc., diagonally: This material requires a bias cut. –adverb 8. in a diagonal manner; obliquely; slantingly: to cut material bias. –verb (used with object) 9. to cause partiality or favoritism in (a person); influence, esp. unfairly: a tearful plea designed to bias the jury. 10. Electronics. to apply a steady voltage or current to (the input of an active device).


Check out numbers 2 and 9, they don't care about your jumping experience, western pleasure experience or any of that.


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## shmurmer4

okay okay, i'll make it easier.

*Main Entry:* bias *Part of Speech:* _noun_ *Definition:* belief in one way; partiality


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## ~*~anebel~*~

shmurmer4 said:


> if you enjoy dressage your opinion is biased. I don't care about your background, it is a simple fact.


I hope you realize that by your rationale, if you DO NOT enjoy dressage you are ALSO biased..
Go toss around a football or something. 


I train what some would call "classically" (aka non-abusively and towards a happy horse) and win in the competitive dressage ring. My horse is extremely happy to work, and because of his natural talent and willingness to work we're now schooling second level and he is 6 this year.


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## shmurmer4

exactly, but I can care less about dressage so I therefore am not biased. It makes no difference to me whether it exist or does not.

I never made an argument whether the op was correct, incorrect in my opinion in no way, just made a mere observation.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

shmurmer4 said:


> exactly, but I can care less about dressage so I therefore am not biased. It makes no difference to me whether it exist or does not.
> 
> I never made an argument whether the op was correct, incorrect in my opinion in no way, just made a mere observation.


*headdesk*
I give up...


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## JustDressageIt

This will probably get deleted... but I personally have a beef with ignorance


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## shmurmer4

Ignorance or stupidity?

Everyone is ignorant to an extent, stupidity on the other hand is completely different.


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## farmpony84

It would be most appreciated it folks would choose not to post on threads when they have nothing to offer to the current topic other than short comments that will likely exacerbate an already hot topic as the remark regarding ones "bias" to a certain discipline has done. Debates are always a great tool for collecting information and forming an opinion. Let's get this show back on track, shall we?


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## shmurmer4

You're right, I apologize for making an observation. Now I must go and try to catch my breath from reading that incredibly long sentence.


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## lovemyponies

there is no absolute in this. I think dressage is the basis for most all types of disciplines in riding be it western or english, etc. As a tiny kid our teacher made us do dressage (okay trot to a from k or whatever) but point is dressage is many things. Both my sister and mom compete in dressage. They are of the classical variety and there is much debate in dressage circles. The one thing I do notice is dressage horses as they move up the levels often getting "burnt out." To me that indicates a need for a break/variety or that particular horse just wasn't meant for that level of dressage. I am sure there are horror training stories for every discipline. I for one get a little nutty when watching the desensitizing videos. I agree its got positives but anything including dressage taken to extremes with the wrong horse can be negative. 

I don't think its just dressage vs. the rest of the riding world thing.


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## farmpony84

I agree w/ lovemyponies. Especially the part about horses getting burned out, which is true in all disciplines. I feel it's important to give breaks and do other things such as trail rides. To give the horse a chance to rest it's mind.....


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## KatieStanley

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> OK, first of all just because SOME riders abuse their horses does not mean ALL riders in the discipline do. This does not make it a "bad discipline" because some riders choose to train improperly.quote]
> 
> I agree with this 110%. One or two bad apples doesn't spoil the whole barrel! Judge the rider/trainer, not the discipline.


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## ponyboy

Spyder said:


> Hmmmmm the above movements range from training to level 3.....do you know what level you were riding?


No idea, this was all on school horses. Admittedly, not all the horses could do flying changes and most of us weren't very successful with the working paces. I happened to be riding a horse that had been leased at the time and he was quite good. All the horses were taught shoulder-in (on the rail). I did do a pony club dressage test once but I don't remember what level it was... the lowest I think. 

Re jumping... I didn't say that there's nothing more to jumping than clearing fences, I said that clearing fences was the _goal_ of it. The goal of dressage is much more complicated than that.


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## CJ82Sky

You know, it's not just dressage, this happens in all disciplines and I see this all too much where people want results, and they want them NOW. They will move faster than the horse is able to, and will use whatever gadgets necessary to get there. My OTTB jumper I started in dressage (I make anyone that trains with me show training level before they are allowed to show jumpers) and we spend the entire first full year I owned him not cantering under saddle. Trot trot and more trot and people thought I was crazy. When we DID canter, it was awesome b/c he was balanced and supple and conditioned and trained properly and that made a huge difference.

So many other people though would have just put on draw reins and gadgets and cantered til he got it "right". Not that I'm against draw reins or training aids either but I DO believe that training MUST include proper muscling and work to support the mental discipline that you are teaching the horse. Shortcuts often end up with false frames and improper carriage.

Dressage is just one of the many disciplines that uses a shortcut as a means to an end, and unfortunately as long as judges reward it, it will continue.

Interesting video for those of you who DO understand dressage and the importance of partnership training and the fundamentals started by Xenophon ages ago as opposed to so many of the shortcuts out there today:


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## CJ82Sky

ponyboy said:


> Yes, every discipline has its issues. The problem is not many people are talking about the issues in dressage, and dressage has always billed itself as being a gentle discipline. Jumping is about clearing fences... Jumpers don't claim it's anything more special than that. That's not the case with dressage.


There is quite a bit of talk about the abusive training methods in dressage...just check out the information in the video i just posted.....



> Somebody mentioned natural ability in relation to willingness. I totally agree that temperament counts for a lot. Jumpers have a history of not bothering to breed for temperament and I think that's a shame.


I beg to differ. ANY good breeder regardless of discipline will ALWAYS take into consideration temperament as well as breeding.


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## KGImages

Loads of people are talking about the issues of Dressage. We all trying to stop it. Just because you saw the truth doesn't mean every single rider does it. Honestly, don't think dressageriders are bad. Jumpingriders are as worse!(International ones, especially german!). Because some people 'think' it is happening, doesn't mean it actually 'is' happening. They might of changed their minds. Believe me, not all of the dressageriders are force into position. It maybe their trainers fault. Not the rider self. Trainers teach us to do stuff, we do it, it happens. Some trainers just want you to get high and start showing you methodes you've never heard of before. Some of them don't explain that it hurts. I think it's more of the trainers fault. 

But please, don't think dressage is all wrong when it really isn't. In Holland it's populair, but you don't get awarded for pulling once in your horses mouth.


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## luvs2ride1979

ponyboy said:


> I used to be really into dressage as a kid. It was what I wanted to do when I grew up. But then I grew up, and realized things had changed.
> 
> Yes, dressage is the hardest thing to do on a horse. Yes, dressage horses are the most balanced in the way they move. The problem is, the horse doesn't know either of those things. All they know is that they are being made to spend a lot of energy doing things they don't normally do and probably can't understand the purpose of.
> 
> Now I don't think any of that means we shouldn't do dressage. But it does mean we have to be very careful and patient with the training - and that used to be exactly what dressage was about. But now because of competitive pressures, that ethic is eroding. If dressage riders (as a whole) still really had their horses' best interests at heart, could Rollkur have gotten as far as it has? Would we be hearing about trainers using hot wire to teach piaffe?
> 
> Now those of you who are dressage riders might be saying "well I don't use either of those methods," and that's fair enough. I am just pointing out that competitive pressures have a way of pushing back the boundaries of what is considered good training or even humane. When you're asking as much of your horse as you do in dressage, that's a real concern.


I agree with the above. Dressage originated as a way to show off horses that were trained for combat. It was done by military personnel and their cavalry horses. Over the past two centuries, Dressage has devolved into just another equestrian "sport" that many do whatever it takes to win. Very sad indeed.

I cringe every time I see Anky or Werth just about get bounced out of their saddles at an extended trot, or their hands bouncing 2-3" or more out of place during a sitting trot. It's disgusting.



> The horses that have been doing dressage the longest, and thus the ones that do it the most naturally, are andalusians and their close relatives (of which the lipizzanner is one). Warmbloods only became popular for dressage because competitive dressage started in Germany where warmbloods are common. The most popular choice isn't always the best. Not that I hate warmbloods, but this is important for two reasons: 1) When you pick the horse with the most natural talent, you can use gentler training methods and equipment and 2) the longer a horse has been bred to do a certain thing, the happier they will be doing it.


Warmbloods became popular because of their "flashy" front end movement. That foot flicking at the extended trot is actually a sign of tension in the neck and/or shoulders! It really should be PENALIZED, but unfortunately judges seem to like it... :-| Same for the dragging hind feet but high stepping front at Passage and Piaffe. Again, that should be penalized as the rull book says the front AND hinds should maintain the SAME elevation, but the judges don't seem to notice...



> There seems to be an attitude among riders (and it can be a problem in all disciplines) that tackling hard cases - horses that don't do what we want them to do very easily, either because of talent or temperament - makes one a better rider and is something to be proud of. But our horses would be much happier if we took the path of least resistance and did with them what they do most naturally.


EXACTLY! There are so few horses out there that are REALLY good at Dressage past 1st level... Yet we see many pros and amateurs alike forcing horses to do medium and upper levels tests. You can see it in the horse that he/she is having a very hard time, yet the horse still gets high enough scores to continue.

And the scores are another thing... WHEN did someone decide that a 70% was a winning upper level score??? 70% is barely above average. 60-65% is a winning score in lower level, and IMO, that is retched. Did your mom ever give you a cookie for a D on an exam?? 

Bleh!



> The bottom line really is that dressage was not meant to be a competitive sport, and it's being ruined because of it. ALL disciplines have the potential to be inhumane if the people doing them get caught up in competition. I fear that dressage riders are losing sight of what the discipline is really supposed to be about, yet because of the noble reputation dressage has many of them don't think twice about whether what they're doing is really good for their horses.


The problem is the judges. If we could get judges in the sport that were NOT ALLOWED to show, train, or breed Dressage horses while they are judging or 3-5 years previous to judging, then we would have more objective scoring. As it is, there are no restrictions on who can be a judge, besides taking a test. I am not even sure there are written restrictions on judging your own students! (I could be wrong on that of course, but I don't remember reading anything like that when reviewing USDF and FEI judging regulations a couple years back).

So, you get this "club" of judges, trainers, and riders who decide what "trends" will win this year at the upper levels. It's just ridiculous. Even the president of the FEI sees the corruption in the Dressage community. Read what she has to say: http://www.kouluratsastus.net/FEInkirje.pdf


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## claireauriga

I've been reading bits of this thread out of curiosity, but I'm unable to comment much due to lack of experience.

However, don't be so quick to apply American grades to dressage ones  At a UK university, 70% = super duper, you've got top grades! xD


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## farmpony84

excellent point claireauriga! I for one, did not know they scored differently over seas...

on a funny note... my first dressage test was the highest score (like an 80 I think). I was on a 20 year old appy and knew nothing about bending but I remember how excited I was to see my score because I thought for sure... highest score was 1st place! Little did I know... I was last...


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## claireauriga

Yup, I'm now in the frame of mind that 40% = pass, 50% = okay, 60% = you're doing well and we are very happy with you, 70% = excellent, and 80% = no one ever gets this, ever xD


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## Spyder

claireauriga said:


> Yup, I'm now in the frame of mind that 40% = pass, 50% = okay, 60% = you're doing well and we are very happy with you, 70% = excellent, and 80% = no one ever gets this, ever xD


40 % is insufficient
50 % is satisfactory for the level
60 % is sufficient
70 % is good
80 % is very good
90 % is excellent

Scores of 80% or higher do exist. If you can't get at least 50% then you need to go back to the drawing board


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## claireauriga

Thank you for that, Spyder  It's always important to consider marks, scores or grades in the context of the distribution with which they are awarded.


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## luvs2ride1979

Spyder said:


> 40 % is insufficient
> 50 % is satisfactory for the level
> 60 % is sufficient
> 70 % is good
> 80 % is very good
> 90 % is excellent
> 
> Scores of 80% or higher do exist. If you can't get at least 50% then you need to go back to the drawing board


Exactly! Shouldn't a horse need at least an 80% before being "good enough" to move on to the next level? I mean, at least in open/pro divisions. I can understand if us mere mortals (amateurs) should find 60% something to cheer about, but professionals, especially those at FEI levels, should be expected to be "very good" if not "excellent". You only hear of certain movements that they are able to score 8s and 9s on, but the overall score is still usually in the 70s for the very best riders/horses.


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## Spyder

luvs2ride1979 said:


> Exactly! Shouldn't a horse need at least an 80% before being "good enough" to move on to the next level? I mean, at least in open/pro divisions. I can understand if us mere mortals (amateurs) should find 60% something to cheer about, but professionals, especially those at FEI levels, should be expected to be "very good" if not "excellent". You only hear of certain movements that they are able to score 8s and 9s on, but the overall score is still usually in the 70s for the very best riders/horses.


 
I believe the USEF has reversed its decision regarding qualifications to move up and Canada never had set scores or placings required.

As far as when you move up, well it is your decision. It depends on tha score and reason why the horse is doing well or not so well at one level.

A perfect example of a horse getting a low score 50-55 % on average and being moved up anyways and getting better scores is a horse I knew some time back. This was a very big long backed horse that was riding the first level in the small arena.

The following year they moved it up to where it could be shown in the larger arena and excelled. It simple could not get that big body to work in a smaller arena. Got in the high 60's and low 70's once it was moved up.


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## JustDressageIt

I honestly believe that there SHOULD be a restriction in place... you should have to get a 75% or better in that level you're in before advancing.

My opinion...


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## Eolith

I've been reading this thread with quite a bit of interest... and decided I am glad to some extent that I haven't really bothered with the showing world. Too much corruption. Not to say that there aren't some fantastic people out there. I really liked Andreas Helgstrand on Blu Hors Matine... anyone familiar with them? They are amazing... but Anky is practically labelled the Queen of Dressage and it appears that her victories go unquestioned. >_<

I am definitely a firm believer that dressage does any and every horse good, as long as they're trained at their own comfortable pace. I ride dressage for fun, and it IS a ton of fun. My pony started off bitter and burnt out with the whole riding thing when I got her. She'd dump a rider in a second if they weren't paying attention. Now after my dressage lessons I ride around with two fingers wrapped around the buckle of the reins directing her purely through my seat and legs. Amazing what you can do without touching the bit once!


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## luvs2ride1979

Spyder said:


> As far as when you move up, well it is your decision. It depends on tha score and reason why the horse is doing well or not so well at one level.


Yes, I know that. It seems most common for horses to move up a level once they've hit high 60s or low 70s, depending on level, horse, and level of rider (amateur vs. pro).

I wish the USDF would have stuck with their decision to require certain scores before moving up, at least for the pros. It would have encouraged taking a horse more slowly through ALL levels, instead of leap-frogging like many pros like to do with their horses.


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## Dressagepony

@KGimages


> Jumpingriders are as worse!(International ones, especially german!).


That is correct, in our horse magazines on it is lately increased reported. Proceed over the bad conditions in the training stables and all this with bad methods.

The topic is already very interesting, with us in Germany on it is largely reported, but something does not do. The judges are also evil authors, since they support this riding. But catches with us already in the lower classes on… There one has hardly chances, if one rides dear and nicely against the hard and brutal riders!

Pull in the horse muzzle, with us one " Riegeln" called, mutually left and right pull and that constantly. Does it give with you also?


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## ohmyitschelle

Eolith said:


> I am definitely a firm believer that dressage does any and every horse good, as long as they're trained at their own comfortable pace. I ride dressage for fun, and it IS a ton of fun. My pony started off bitter and burnt out with the whole riding thing when I got her. She'd dump a rider in a second if they weren't paying attention. Now after my dressage lessons I ride around with two fingers wrapped around the buckle of the reins directing her purely through my seat and legs. Amazing what you can do without touching the bit once!


As do I believe in that. However I have no desire to look like the upper riders on my horses, and don't really pay attention to their awful methods and ways of riding. I choose to ride for my horses' happiness under saddle primarily and then to help them be the best horse they can be. I'm a pure example of not being selfish and forcing a lifestyle on my horses... as I sold a mare who preferred to jump over dressage, and my gelding who has the talent to be a dressage/show horse has recently learnt to jump and likes the bigger heights and Mummy can barely go over a pole off the ground :lol: So he is also for sale. Despite being the most talented horse I own, and my baby. I'm lucky to have a mare who loves to learn, loves to try her heart out and loves the flatwork we do now.
It's about the horse to me... if we do well out and about thats only a bonus.
x


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## StarfireSparrow

Dressage is supposed to be simply about control for horse and rider. The rider is supposed to learn body control and through his or her aides, teach the horse to respond to the slightest change. This is supposed to be true all the way to the top levels. No movement ever asked for is outside of what a horse is capable of performing naturally on his own. The issues arise when a trainer decides to rush the process and teach the tricks instead of training the horse to respond to where he is being asked to put his body. 
Ideally, your hands, legs and seat should be able to put your horse into whatever frame you want him in, adjust his level of elevation, his speed, his gait and anything else that you need to tell him. The reason some trainers will jump the levels so quickly is that they have short changed the training somewhere and know that if they stay at one level too long, this will start to show through.


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## PiggyPablo

It's nice to hear this, PonyBoy. I too like dressage, but only for fun and bonding with my horse. I did think about competing and such, but after being around some snooty dressage folk in my area, I got turned off. This one lady had this 10 yr old WB that she rode in clinics. They were working this horse REALLY hard and this horse looked as if she hadn't been working with him much before the clinic (he looked out of shape and the clinician made a comment about it, but continued gruelling work anyways). Spurs/double bridle/1 stick on each side. The horse was made to do flying lead changes more than 20 times. I felt my stomach hurt. The next day, I heard from someone that the horse reared up and fell backwards on her and they blamed the horse and are sending him away to be sold  Very sad. I know there are good dressage competitors out there, but they are diamond in the rough. 

This one lady I took one lesson with (to try her out) said that the dressge judge told her that she was not ready for 3rd level, and that she should remain at 2nd. She shook her head and said she didn't care what that judge said and that she was going to continue with her horse up the levels. That was a red flag for me, and hence never went back.


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## Spyder

PiggyPablo said:


> 1 stick on each side.


I ride with a whip on each side and it has NOTHING to do with abuse. The whip properly used is the extension of the leg. If a correction is required on the right side of the horse and the whip is on the riders left it is unfair to the horse to make a correction several steps later after moving the whip to the right side.

In a normal session to ask for lead changes 20 times or more is normal and not abusive. The beef I have is with those that make statements about *ANY* discipline without knowing the nuances of that discipline.


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## PiggyPablo

Spyder, this lady's horse was not ready for all of that and she was being careless with her aids, she wasn't ready to be using all that equipment is all.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

JustDressageIt said:


> I honestly believe that there SHOULD be a restriction in place... you should have to get a 75% or better in that level you're in before advancing.
> 
> My opinion...


No one would ever get to Grand Prix, and abusive methods would be used in lower and lower levels in order to artificially inflate scores. Judges would also start getting paid off at lower and lower levels. 
It is the pursuit of a very high score that has corrupted dressage in the first place, implementing a minimum required score so high would just bring that corruption right down to grass roots.
Also, if there were a required score of 75% to move up a level, I would simply not show, along with many other people in my community. We don't have access to the world class trainers, or sponsorship that some areas do and so the entire dressage community would shut down.
I have an average in the high 60s at first level and am doing second this year because doing first level again would be unfair considering I was champion all last year. And my horse is also ready to do second level. I am not forcing the horse up a level just because I haven't got a 75% at first, he is ready for the jump up.

Also: I know a girl who has gotten a 75% at first level because she was the first ride of the show, and there was mud nearly up to her horse's knees in the ring. The judge was throwing points at her. The rest of the show, and at all the other shows she's done her scores have been in the low to mid 50s. The one test that she did get a really good score was a statistical anomaly. And if she did move up to second level because "oh my horse got a 75%" she would probably get 40% consistently. 

I don't do dressage for fun, and I don't do dressage solely to compete. I do dressage because I like it as a sport. The only reason I show is so that when one day I'm showing at a CDI level I'm not going to be all jitters and nerves. I also show so that I can get my scores for judging levels and eventually be an FEI judge.


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## Spyder

> Originally Posted by *JustDressageIt*
> _I honestly believe that there SHOULD be a restriction in place... you should have to get a 75% or better in that level you're in before advancing.
> 
> My opinion...  _






Just read this and this is what dressage is *NOT* about. Dressage is the bettering of ANY horse within its own capabilities.

Most horses will never make Grand Prix. Many horses can do GP but probably will not to National or International competieion standards. The above statement is saying as far as I can see "_don't bother with dressage because unless you have the very best horse you will never go anywhere_"

Dressage is about making the horse as good as it can be and if it can only do 3/4rd level at local shows then so what. To say that horse does not have the right to go as far as it can *WHERE EVER* it can is destroying the very message of dressage. 

It is for the above reason ( everyone should be able to go as far as they can where ever they can) is the reason the USDF reversed their decisions.

I would rather promote dressage than restrict it.


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## StarfireSparrow

The only way to eliminate the abusive training would be to train judges to better see when a horse is not relaxed and on the riders aides. A horse that is abusively trained is not going to get in sync with his rider the way that a horse who has been brought along at his own pace through proper conditioning and effective riding. There should be more focus on movements that show a horses willingness to relax into the riders hands and seat in higher levels than first or second. You cannot fake an alert, relaxed and willing horse and there are judges who are capable of seeing the difference. There just needs to be more of them.


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## Dumas'_Grrrl

Guess no matter how flat you make a pancake you always have 2 sides. Let's please remember that these are just OPINIONS of the people that posted them.

**  Friendly reminder **


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## SuspiciousInnocence

Only read the first post coz this thread is long.. hehe

But I totally agree with poster number 1.. i have now started classical dressage lessons where one week I will do a ridden lesson on her horse, the next will be an inhand lesson so I can then train my own pony the same way. My first lesson is the week after next and I am super excited to be able to try such an amaziong way of dressage!!!


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## ~*~anebel~*~

MysterySparrow said:


> The only way to eliminate the abusive training would be to train judges to better see when a horse is not relaxed and on the riders aides. A horse that is abusively trained is not going to get in sync with his rider the way that a horse who has been brought along at his own pace through proper conditioning and effective riding. There should be more focus on movements that show a horses willingness to relax into the riders hands and seat in higher levels than first or second. You cannot fake an alert, relaxed and willing horse and there are judges who are capable of seeing the difference. There just needs to be more of them.


All judges at the level where they are judging the world cup, or the Olympics have a very high level of qualification and are really really well trained. They judge as a job. It is not easy for "just anyone" to judge dressage. In order to judge FEI, you also need to have scores at Grand Prix level.
This should keep out "inexperience". And for the most part does. The problem is politics. There are unwritten rules to judging dressage, like who you place and where you place them. There are also many judges in the world (I'd say over 50%) that can be paid off. How do you think Debbie and Brentina pulled off an 85% at an Olympic qualifier to push a "new" rider and horse off the US team??


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## StarfireSparrow

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> All judges at the level where they are judging the world cup, or the Olympics have a very high level of qualification and are really really well trained. They judge as a job. It is not easy for "just anyone" to judge dressage. In order to judge FEI, you also need to have scores at Grand Prix level.
> This should keep out "inexperience". And for the most part does. The problem is politics. There are unwritten rules to judging dressage, like who you place and where you place them. There are also many judges in the world (I'd say over 50%) that can be paid off. How do you think Debbie and Brentina pulled off an 85% at an Olympic qualifier to push a "new" rider and horse off the US team??



In response to that I say there should be a higher level of integrity and accountability in judging. I know all about the politics of showing. They exist in all disciplines and in all associations, showing and breed shows alike. But, when the very principles of the discipline they are judging are lacking due to ribbons or awards, they need to self examine the reasons they are in that judges box in the first place. That is just how I feel about it.


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## XxXequinegrlXxX

JustDressageIt said:


> I strongly stand by the comment that "all jumpers are dressage horses, but not all dressage horses are jumpers."
> Dressage is an essential basis to most good riding.
> Jumping is SO much more than just "point and shoot."


that is the best statement i have heard in a while


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## ~*~anebel~*~

MysterySparrow said:


> In response to that I say there should be a higher level of integrity and accountability in judging. I know all about the politics of showing. They exist in all disciplines and in all associations, showing and breed shows alike. But, when the very principles of the discipline they are judging are lacking due to ribbons or awards, they need to self examine the reasons they are in that judges box in the first place. That is just how I feel about it.


This is also my feeling, and is why I would like to become an FEI judge.
I feel that most of these issues are because of the FEI's non-action. They have allowed abusive training methods, and corrupt practices for much too long. It would be really refreshing to see some way to fine/ban people that are corrupting the sport. The FEI sure cracks down hard enough on people found with banned substances in their horse's systems to "make an example of them". Where is this side of the FEI when dealing with Rollkur and corrupt judges?


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## Spyder

Here is my beef with dressage and it has NOTHING to do with the judges. This is a lovely coming five year old in a double bridle that has only shown schooling level 1.

FEI Dressage Prospect for Sale in Ocala, Florida

There is a video there also. Shortened up in the front and showing false collection.

I teach classic dressage NOT this "rushed up so we can get top price for him" type of trained dressage.


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## StarfireSparrow

Spyder, I agree totally that there are too many horses that rushed into a headset as opposed to a true over all frame and self carriage. It is sad that that horse will most likely end up burned out and not go as far as he should be able too. It is horrible that wanting to turn a profit is more important to a trainer than the horses education. I understand it is still business, but a trainer should be a horse person first and business person second.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Spyder said:


> Here is my beef with dressage and it has NOTHING to do with the judges. This is a lovely coming five year old in a double bridle that has only shown schooling level 1.
> 
> FEI Dressage Prospect for Sale in Ocala, Florida
> 
> There is a video there also. Shortened up in the front and showing false collection.
> 
> I teach classic dressage NOT this "rushed up so we can get top price for him" type of trained dressage.


Lol @ the video.

And yes, but I also believe that this whole omg must overcollect horse too soon phenomenon is borned from the show ring.
Basically, as long as there are people dumb enough to pay a lot of money for a horse that is going to need 6 months in the field, a good vet, and proper training, there are going to be trainers rushing horses to get them sold faster, for more money.
But look! He's already in a double bridle! That mean he MUST be worth $100k!


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## jazzyrider

MysterySparrow said:


> Spyder, I agree totally that there are too many horses that rushed into a headset as opposed to a true over all frame and self carriage. It is sad that that horse will most likely end up burned out and not go as far as he should be able too. It is horrible that wanting to turn a profit is more important to a trainer than the horses education. I understand it is still business, *but a trainer should be a horse person first and business person second.*




never a truer word spoken


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