# Relationship advice on Horse Forum!?



## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Small background info, been with my partner 5 1/2 years, engaged for 1 year. I am 25, he is 33.


With our approaching wedding, I am starting to seriously think about my fiance and my relationship. He is, for the most part, a wonderful, kind, caring man. He helped me through my toughest time and helped me cope with PTSD and depression.
However, there are a few problems that I am finding harder and harder to deal with. For one, when he is frustrated with something, he will snap at me if I say something to him, or go to hug/kiss. "What do you want!" or, "Bad timing!" being some examples. He gets unnecessarily aggro at things. Another thing which is happening more and more often, is that if we are trying to talk through a difficult situation or problem, and I don't understand, instead of trying to explain his thoughts a different way, he decides that I'm "just not listening". He used to be very good at changing his words to help me understand, but he just...doesn't anymore. Also, despite him knowing everything about my troubled childhood and the behaviour I developed thus, he still continues to do things he knows triggers me; e.g. slamming his hands on the table and standing up abruptly, raising his voice and taking on an angry demeanour. I understand people get angry, but to me, anger always lead to me getting hit, so I find it threatening, and when I am triggered I basically curl up into the fetal position on the bed and wait for the abuse to come. He has NEVER hit me, or even come close to hitting me, but is it too much to ask that when he is angry, he just leaves the room til he calms down rather than reacting a way he knows will upset me?
I love him very much but I do not believe in "love conquers all" and I don't want to end up divorcing him over issues that I could have fixed or avoided before we get married. I also don't want to go into marriage thinking we will overcome these things when we can't/won't. Not to mention, because of my childhood, I want to raise my own future children with the kind of father that doesn't get aggressive. I want them to be raised with an experience that cements "violence is not the answer". I want to be married for the rest of my life, and I want to be happy in that marriage.
On top of all that, I have zero sex drive and he still somehow believes that means I don't find him attractive, despite my reassurances and even my doctor saying, 'sadly that's just how she is'.
I don't know who to talk to and I can't afford to see a relationship therapist.


There is also another man I am in love with, and I am polyamorous, and firmly believe you can love many people sexually, emotionally, etc. so it doesn't bother me that I have found love with another as well. My partner knows and supports me and my relationship with this man. My issue with this second person is that we have only admitted love for each other for about a month, and he _seems_ as perfect as my fiance was when we first got together. I know nobody is perfect, but having a loving, caring, listener who can discuss difficult topics without getting upset or aggro is making it harder to see what is best for myself. I've spent my life making other people happy and I just want to do whats best for myself for a change. I need unbiased opinions on my honest admission.


TL;DR


Fiance knowingly triggers my PTSD and although he is otherwise perfect I feel like I can't get over this trait.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Alright, keep in mind that I say this easily because there are no emotional attachments but "RUN". This man may be triggering your PTSD but to tell you the truth, I don't have PTSD and I would be hauling butt as fast as I can. "What do you want?" Or "Bad timing" are not really nice things to say and is constructed in an attempt to make his feelings your fault. Something like "Babe, I'm not really into it right now" is a lot gentler and the blame is placed on where it belongs, his feelings and not on you. 

Secondly, Standing up and over me in an aggressive manner would be having me getting up and walking away for good and is only the start. He's controlling himself right now but doesn't mean he always will. 

The red flags are waving in your face, look at them for what they are.

Have you considered that he might not be as on board with consensual and responsible non-monogamy as you originally thought? Maybe he is acting out from that or maybe not. Either way, there is better ways to handle it than getting abusive. That is still him no matter what the circumstances are. 

Maybe you aren't really the one for him and he can't say so and gets resentful instead. Still not a reason to be abusive though.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Let him go. IMHO the snapping is because deep down he is not ok with someone else. You say lately this has happened. Give good odds it's when the someone else came to the forefront. 

It's only going to get worse. Let him find someone else who he is enough for would be in everyone's best interest.


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## ksbowman (Oct 30, 2018)

Your not ready for a commitment of marriage if you are still seeking out others to "love". You need to break it off with your fiancé until you are ready to commit to only one person for the rest of your life.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

ksbowman said:


> Your not ready for a commitment of marriage if you are still seeking out others to "love". You need to break it off with your fiancé until you are ready to commit to only one person for the rest of your life.


Now that isn't fair I don't think, considering she said she does not have a single-love view of things. There isn't anything wrong with that as long as all parties are fine with it.

But OP I agree with the others. If he's acting aggressively, especially if it's been becoming more prominent and especially when he knows it upsets you, I'd be leaving too. A friend of mine is in a similar relationship and I hate seeing what it does to her, but she won't give it up. Please don't let yourself live on edge because you never know what he might do or how he might react to something. 

He's never hit you, but if he's yelling and slamming things around, that is still emotional abuse to at least some degree.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

He has the view most men do. The fiancé does not like being cucked. Most men don't and would have been gone .


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## ksbowman (Oct 30, 2018)

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> Now that isn't fair I don't think, considering she said she does not have a single-love view of things. There isn't anything wrong with that as long as all parties are fine with it.
> 
> But OP I agree with the others. If he's acting aggressively, especially if it's been becoming more prominent and especially when he knows it upsets you, I'd be leaving too. A friend of mine is in a similar relationship and I hate seeing what it does to her, but she won't give it up. Please don't let yourself live on edge because you never know what he might do or how he might react to something.
> 
> He's never hit you, but if he's yelling and slamming things around, that is still emotional abuse to at least some degree.


 If sh doesn't have a single -love view of things then she should not be married. This is why so many marriages anymore are temporary instead of being a commitment for life as the vows say. I've been married for 49 years and when we took our vows it was to exclude all others, if you can't do that then just don't get married.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Agree to disagree, with so many factors to be considered in individual relationships. Some have no problem with an open marriage. If I came across as condescending or hostile, that was not my goal, simply a difference of opinion.


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## lsdrider (Jun 27, 2012)

Having walked away from one (3 days before the wedding) and divorced two... it's waaay better to bite the bullet now than have to deal with the suck of a bad marriage and a divorce later.

Use it to start an adventure. 

You are young and will bounce back quickly.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I know quite a few open marriages and one or two that actually work but it takes a very different mindset than most of us were raised with. I'm all for 'To each his own' but a lot of people act like they are ok with open relationships when deep down they really are not.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I agree with @LoriF, run don't walk away. I have seen too many of my friends relationships start this way and before it was over it ended up turning physical. No matter how long the relationship is pre-marriage those type of men seem to be able to hold it together until they get the ring on your finger and then they no longer try to control their need to lash out.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

If you are in a relationship that is deteriorating and bordering becoming abusive....why?
Why would you stay and allow such treatment from someone who "loves" you?
I don't understand it...

I also don't understand "open" relationships regarding being married, taking vows and then literally saying it is OK to go out, break those vows and yes, fool around with others...
Consent given or not...

I would ask...
If this was the other way would you really be OK that your spouse or fiance is not finding you enough for them but is out finding pleasure and support, physical and emotional, in the arms of another....

To each their own...
What floats your boat would sink my ship and ruin me.

To me...
It is cheating on my partner.
It is adultery and against my upbringing and vows taken with my spouse in front of God in a church with our families present.
I'm old-fashioned, admit that one 100%...
To me, being faithful _*to one partner*_ is love and stability...lived every day.
If you can't or won't do that then don't be in a committed relationship.
Even my nieces and nephews when read this to them looked at me like I was nuts...
They did not see respect from you and in turn no trust given back = bad news and get out till you both get your priorities in order.

I'm married 38 years this year....
My spouse has never threatened me with words, tone or superiority in body language...
In a relationship such as yours...I would return the ring, cancel the wedding date and break off all commitment.
Emotional abuse is a just as damaging as physical. Scars and marks are hidden from view but they *do* exist and cause damage.
You though too need some counseling imo cause you don't stay in a abusive relationship as this where you are terrified of abuse...that is unhealthy and just plain speaks of sickness needing attention, professional intervention and attention to heal and fix.

_*This isn't a dig at you or your lifestyle choices...*_
It is a honest set of comments that end with I don't think most of us here can truly understand a "open" relationship as you describe and not having issues.
Many of us also see huge red flags and warning signs of impending real abuse when when you/your fiance should be on the best of behavior BEFORE you say "I do" you feel threatened and vulnerable in the presence of your future spouse...._something is seriously wrong in your relationship._
To me, your future life partner should be your champion, your rock and support to turn to in time of trouble, heartache, joy and just everything...
_What you describe makes me want to run away ...*not run to..*_
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo.._


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

He may be becoming violent because he is expected to commit to you, and you are finding love elsewhere. That would be a deal breaker to me. But in your defense, so would the screaming and such. 

This is not going to work. Give back the ring. Run from both men. Figure out your own life. Then think about relationships. 

I would be willing to wager that if you get married now, you will regret it. I think that you know it in your heart, or you would have not asked about it.

I believe that you can love more than one individual. Your parents. Your kids. Your husband. But marriage is a special and exclusive relationship.

Sure, Dolly Parton's husband put up with it, but she is rich.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ksbowman said:


> If sh doesn't have a single -love view of things then she should not be married. This is why so many marriages anymore are temporary instead of being a commitment for life as the vows say. I've been married for 49 years and when we took our vows it was to exclude all others, if you can't do that then just don't get married.


Just because this is your(& many peoples) view of marriage doesn't mean it is or should be everyone's. It is fine to have those particular morals but not to dictate them to everyone imo.

At any rate op, going off your story, agree with others that whatever the 'trigger' your fiance is being abusive. Do not discount it just because it's not physical.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

an 'open' marriage might work if all sides are equally happy and balanced. But, if the woman is going to another man to escape the first man, this is an unbalanced situation and will topple all.


Your fiance may be overly aggressive in his demeanor, but in his defense, he has a future, too. He is not just 'scenery' to YOUR future. He must be very frustrated with you and your loving someone else, but then saying you have zero libido. 



Each of you has your own future, and it sounds like neither one of you is making the other's future look brighter.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Hello,

even I'm straightforward monogamous myself, I personally think that there are people who view this thing other way. Nothing wrong it in IMHO, if you are yourself fine and "balanced" with that thing.

At this point, I'd absolutely not to get married with that man. I think that maybe the most logical thing would be to run away, but however, I wonder if there are something wrong with your man, which he then "unloads" by being disrespectful toward you? If so, he needs help + new coping strategies as well and the thing could work out if he received help for his own situation *first*. But this means that he truly has to *want* that help *himself* and *it's never OK to pour your own problems to someone else's neck*, especially if she carries wounds like you've from your own childhood.

However, continuing with a partner like him would mean taking a risk. There are people with psychopathic and narcissistic or plainly just less admirable traits out there and the risk of getting into their 'games' after they have received "help" is, still, there. Never been there myself but what I've learnt from others and as a part of my studies (I'm a bachelor of social services), people like start slowly; at first they treat you like a queen, then small things sneak in, such as a little dig here and there, then maybe more serious name calling or other mental abuse, then they perhaps start to throw things or show other physically aggressive symptoms, perhaps isolating from your friends and family and finally they'll hit you. OP, I absolutely *don't mean* that your fiance is like this, maybe it's something smaller bothering him (and it'd be worked out for example with the said professional help given to him & accepted by him) but I'd stay alerted and check these things once a while if you feel that there is something 'wrong' with him. Especially if I had a background like you have, I'd surround myself with 'safe' people. 

As others said, maybe the polyamory thing bothers him, perhaps it's something else. I think that openly polyamorous people or monogamous people who are ready to accept that their partner is polyamorous are probably still a minority (but they do exist!), and you need a person like this so you can have a balanced relationship if you polyamory is your way to go. Some monogamous people can perhaps accept it after processing the thing first theirselves or in couple counselling but some will never do and it's something that we just have to accept.

You are from US, right? As coming from Finland, I don't know how things work over there but if there is even a small change to get any free/low-cost therapy or any kind of counselling, I'd try it. My childhood wasn't very easy either, and my therapist has helped me enormously. Depending a little on your therapy/counselling/help, you can perhaps also talk about issues like your life plans (like fiances and weddings and your worries related to them) with your therapist/counselor and will get some 'mirror' and fresh point of views for your situation from him or her.

Summarum summarum: I know that this man is important to you, you have common past and he has helped you a lot, but I don't think that marriage is the right & wise movement for you to choose at this point. As I described above, maybe the breakup or at least putting everything 'on hold' would be the best choice until you can figure yourself and the situation out or at least calm this all down a little. I also promise that there are men who treat you well and respect you out there, since I'm married to one of them. Plus, I'd say - even to the most balanced/problem-free people/couple - if you hesitate getting married to the point in which you end up to ask yourself the question "do I?", the time, situation or something isn't right for the marriage just now and if I was there, I wouldn't get married at that point.

And the last words - good luck and Happy New Year! I hope that this year will be a good one for you :thumbsup:.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

loosie said:


> Just because this is your(& many peoples) view of marriage doesn't mean it is or should be everyone's. It is fine to have those particular morals but not to dictate them to everyone imo.
> 
> At any rate op, going off your story, agree with others that whatever the 'trigger' your fiance is being abusive. Do not discount it just because it's not physical.


Exactly this. I am pretty much a monogamous relationship type person. But, I do believe that people should live there lives in a way that will create their happiness. No one is responsible for you happiness except for yourself. Never in my lifetime will I let another human being dictate what my happiness should look like.

OP, I don't know you or your fiance from Adam but if a friend were coming to me with this problem, I would tell her that she probably should not marry this man right now if ever.

He says that he supports your ideas around relationships but I'm not too convinced that he really does. Guys, especially younger men, at first thought of a non monogamous relationship would be all for it because they are thinking about what they can do with it. A lot of times it doesn't hit them until later that you meant you too and meant it. Maybe he thought by proposing and marrying you would put a halt to the open relationship stuff.
I used to exclusively date a guy that I caught twice cheating. After the second time I told him that if he wanted to see other people to just let me know instead of sneaking around. He then said to me "But then you will probably start seeing someone else too" I found that amusing and then walked away from it. 

You say that you have 0 sex drive yet you became involved with another person over the last month. You tell him that it's you and not him and that you find him attractive but he can't help thinking that your sex drive is just fine with another person whether it be real or imagined. And, I kind of don't blame him. I think that I would feel hurt too. None of this is a good excuse to show aggression towards you regardless.

I just think that right now there is a lot of incompatibility going on and would put a major hold on the marriage vows.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I think you need to talk to a therapist. A good one. You should talk to the therapist alone at first, and decide whether couples therapy might be good for you both. This is an unhealthy relationship.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

I agree with others. This relationship is probably destined to fail for several reasons.

People do not change easily, and are rarely changed at the behest of others. The unfortunate truth is that we are generally our worst selves around those who love us the most. His anger and frustration will probably stay the same or worsen over time.

It is not fair to expect others to bear the burden of past traumas and mental health issues. It is your responsibility to take care of yourself and manage your symptoms. One of the most important coping skills to learn and use for mental health is establishing healthy boundaries with others and communicating needs and expectations in an adult manner. If others are not able to meet your needs and respect your boundaries, you need to determine whether it is healthy for either of you to continue to be together. Self care sometimes dictates walking away from unhealthy relationships instead of trying to force someone to accept your issues and walk on eggshells to avoid your triggers. Neither person in the scenario are bad or evil, but someone with childhood trauma is probably not compatible with a person who expresses their anger with a loud voice or gestures.

Open relationships are most likely destined to fail, as others before me have stated.

Do not get married. Heed the red flags in this relationship and walk away. When you stay in a bad relationdhip, it prevents both of you from moving on and finding the right relationship. 

If you can't put up with it before marriage, don't get married. It won't magically change.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> I think you need to talk to a therapist. A good one. You should talk to the therapist alone at first, and decide whether couples therapy might be good for you both. This is an unhealthy relationship.



Even I already commented that thread... That's actually very good reply & a piece of advice and hits the nail to the head. If you just can, maybe help coming from a professional who gets to know your situation would be the best choice.


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## LlamaPacker (Aug 29, 2016)

Many excellent pieces of advice here; most of which I agree with and hear saying, please, please, don't ever marry a man that you are having so many concerns about, especially if you feel as if in love with another. For his sake as well as yours. 



Those of us much older know that generally things only get harder once married and that is when the real commitment and dedication to making a relationship work set in; as well as the real rewards of being in a successful partnership if you choose well and both intend to be your best. Find a community health service (usually low cost) with a therapist who will really listen to you as you work out what you want in life and how to be in a relationship with someone who can help make that happen.


If I can help one young woman not make mistakes that so many of us have made before, decided can take time to post as we head into a new year. Have confidence in yourself, as from the sounds of it, you are getting beyond the abuse you suffered and you know what is right. All the best in 2019 and we hope we hear better news from you in the future!


(On another note, just noticed a cute little tiny black bug running around on my screen; definitely "under" the glass. Am afraid that means something has infected HorseForum, will go look on another post and see if anyone is telling us what to do when that happens. Pretty worrisome, hope it doesn't mean I'll have to leave HF.....)


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

LlamaPacker said:


> (On another note, just noticed a cute little tiny black bug running around on my screen; definitely "under" the glass. Am afraid that means something has infected HorseForum, will go look on another post and see if anyone is telling us what to do when that happens. Pretty worrisome, hope it doesn't mean I'll have to leave HF.....)



*No fears....*
*No infection here....*


It is TaMMa89 "pet" to see how many pay attention to details...
Many of us have swatted our screens in the past only to realize later it is "a pet" ...


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Ok I'm definitely looking from the other side of the fence but here is what I see.

This guy is being made out to be some sort of abuser. And If I missed something in the original post, correct me. But I didn't see where he had a side piece. Or that the OP met him in some sort of open relationship setting.

So he thinks he is getting married. Meanwhile OP has been searching this whole time and found someone a month ago that she is in love with.

She is having her cake and eating it to and he is just serving. And he yells? I am the easiest going person in the world and I would yell to. Maybe not the best reaction admittedly. He should have said oh heyal naw and left. 

OP definitely should not marry him. He has done nothing as far as I can tell to deserve this. OP should definitely see a professional. Another poster was right. Somebody else should not be paying for her issues. 

That's part of the deal. While I am sorry for whatever happened to her, it's time for acceptance. What happened happened. What you are left with you are left with. Deal with it the best you can. But calling someone a abuser for having a reaction from you running around isn't it. 

i understand this won't be popular.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

horselovinguy said:


> *No fears....*
> *No infection here....*
> 
> 
> ...


Ah, I like that lol Never noticed before.


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Long post ahead, you have been warned...


First of all, thank you for all the responses. I have friends and family to talk to but I feel they are all biased to some extent, so I really needed some fresh views. I have a few questions from people to address.


*Horselovinguy says:*
_If you are in a relationship that is deteriorating and bordering becoming abusive....why?_
Because, (and I know this is the lamest of excuses) I love him. I was friends with him when his first marriage broke down and saw how that affected him; I don't wish to put anyone through that kind of pain. 
_ Why would you stay and allow such treatment from someone who "loves" you?_ 
I....I don't know.
_If this was the other way would you really be OK that your spouse or fiance is not finding you enough for them but is out finding pleasure and support, physical and emotional, in the arms of another.... _
No. I wouldn't. And that was heckin' hard to admit.


*TaMMa89 says:*

_I wonder if there are something wrong with your man, which he then "unloads" by being disrespectful toward you? If so, he needs help + new coping strategies as well and the thing could work out if he received help for his own situation *first*._ 
This actually brings up something I left out in the original post - he doesn't want to help himself. He was seeing a therapist for a while but stopped due to costs. He is full-time employed so he is not eligible for reduced cost, despite the fact we live paycheck to paycheck. But the important part is that he makes excuses as to why he won't help himself.



*Aubie says:*
_This guy is being made out to be some sort of abuser. And If I missed something in the original post, correct me. But I didn't see where he had a side piece. Or that the OP met him in some sort of open relationship setting. _
This is my bad for leaving out an important detail. When we got together, we agreed to be polyamorous. We agreed monogamy wasn't for us. He has had a few side ladies over the years that didn't stick around for various reasons. 




I guess, to finish up this post, I am scared that leaving is the right thing to do. I am scared of the hurt it will cause and the loss of the benefits of our relationship (I lost my job so he is supporting me financially). When we talked last night, I went from "I want OUT of this", to "Aww I love him, I _do_ wanna get married" and now I've woken up this morning, I truly do not know if I want to.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Mythilus said:


> When we talked last night, I went from "I want OUT of this", to "Aww I love him, I _do_ wanna get married" and now I've woken up this morning, I truly do not know if I want to.


This right here, to me, is the key that would tell me you do need to leave. At least, if everything else is as you've said it is. 

The friend I mentioned is this way with her fiancé. He'll make her feel awful about herself, intentionally drag out her suffering for no decent reason, then come in and apologize, and she goes right back to him every time. Whatever your flaws, this man is behaving in a way that he knows upsets you and you said he has no desire of helping himself be better. Being angry and hurting you, then apologizing and convincing you things can be better, only to make no effort for them to be and repeat is a cycle of emotional abuse, as I see it. Nothing about what you describe is healthy in my eyes. 

As with everyone else, you have to take what I say and see how it might and might not apply to your situation in the details we do no know, but from what you have said, this is my take. I wish you the best of luck.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Sounds like you know what you need to do OP, just afraid - understandably. As for the financial side, be it due to a boss or a relationship, every woman should have a... pluck off fund so we don't have to feel stuck in a situation. Won't help you now but do yourself a favor for the future! ;-)


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

"This is my bad for leaving out an important detail. When we got together, we agreed to be polyamorous. We agreed monogamy wasn't for us. He has had a few side ladies over the years that didn't stick around for various reasons."

Now that casts a whole different light. He knew what the rules were and decided to play. Now it sounds like he doesn't like it when it's your turn. It doesn't sound like he is up for this kinda deal after all. Either way it's time to part ways. Sorry if I sound so blunt. 

While I certainly believe you are entitled to the lifestyle you want. Its a road that has some built in pitfalls.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You are engaged? Keep in mind what is happening now is the best as it gets. The engagement is the fantasy period, then things get real. If you don't like what's happening now, hang on for worse.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

waresbear said:


> You are engaged? Keep in mind what is happening now is the best as it gets. The engagement is the fantasy period, then things get real. If you don't like what's happening now, hang on for worse.


THIS. It will be a lot worse when you are married. Especially given that you already know he won't go for therapy, which would have been your only chance to salvage something out of this relationship. 

If you're not ready to leave him, fine. But don't get married just yet. There are too many question marks. And go to therapy for yourself, to make sure you are solid enough to make good decisions.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Do you think you are worthy of a happy, fulfilling relationship? Because I am reading a lot of things that amount to self sabotage. First of all, I don't buy "polyamorous" and "want to get married" uttered in the same breath. Secondly, people whose self worth was destroyed by an abusive upbringing run a risk of feeling unworthy of finding their piece of happiness, so if you should find yourself in a string of relationships with the kind of partner you have described in the original post, keep in mind what (or who) the common denominator is: you. "Charming until the prey is bagged, and then the gloves come off" sounds sociopathic to me: you may have got yourself one of those. He may just be under the impression that you are too weak to stand your ground. 

Anyway, I'm writing this in my proverbial armchair, with nothing to go on but your post, but you should take a good look at your outlook on romantic relationships. You may have been damaged in that area more than you realize.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

I have to admit I am confused how someone can be polyamorous with zero sex drive. Am I not understanding some definitions here?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I teach in a small college. About 80% of my students are girls and women. If they don't learn anatomy, if they don't learn physiology or microbiology, I hope that they will learn this one fact:

*If you let someone totally support you financially, he (or she) will control your life.* Every woman needs her own job and her own money. I see nothing wrong with staying home with small children, but it still can't hurt to work one day a week. When they are in school, get a job. Get training. Make money. Keep some for yourself.

Whoever controls the money controls everything that you do. It only gets worse as things go on down the road.

Please have more respect for yourself than to marry a man just so he will keep you up. That is neither fair to him or to yourself.

When I was a young woman, we did not have the right to get good jobs. Those were kept back for men. All the protesting that my generation did, all the bras that we burned, all the work that we did, is it all for nothing? 

Women have rights in the civilized world. Most of us on this forum are lucky enough to live in countries in which women have rights. We could have been born into countries where women are considered to be property. 

But you have to earn those rights by taking pride in yourself. By working to earn the money so that you will have power in life. 

And this is a horse forum. I hear people say all the time, "I used to have horses, but my husband made me give them up to save money when we got married."

For me, no way. No how. I will never let somebody keep me up while I can stand on my two feet. 

*Marriage is a partnership in which two people join their lives so that they can become a family. *

Polyamory and true love are polar opposites. And the only cultures in which "polyamory" occurs are cultures where men *own* several wives.

*You know that you should not marry this guy* or you would not have brought it out on a public forum. If you want to use him a while for money, you will have to put up with his anger. Be fair to him. Be fair to yourself. You don't love him and he doesn't love you.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

Sounds like you are setting yourself up for failure. Anyone who is verbally or emotionally abusive before marriage won't get better after marriage. 

Wanting to be married to one guy and be messing around with another. That's called adultery if my current hubby said anything of doing that, I wouldn't of ever married him. Had he been verbally abusive or emotionally abusive I'd been running far far away.

Marriage is between one man and one woman, you vow to be there for better or worse, in sickness and in health. No where in those marriage vows doe it say to be seeing another man and having a sexual relationship with. 

Think you need counciling with a therapist and get yourself straighten out emotionally. You are not ready to be married. Marriage is a commitment to be faithful and devoted to the man you're married too. 

I would NEVER consider stepping out on my husband and he'd never do so either. He's my love my companion and we talk about and workout any problems together. We are on the same page when it comes to any important decisions.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Dear Mythilus,

Hello from another person with complex PTSD because of being exposed to serious and often shocking violence and emotional / verbal abuse from the time I was a toddler. :hug: I'm two decades on from you and it's been a bit of a road. I didn't even know I had complex PTSD until four years ago, when the whole thing became very obvious due to some really disturbing recovered memories from very early childhood (on top of existing ones). That was an a-ha experience. I always knew that my childhood wasn't roses and objectively knew from the time I was a teenager that my birth family were physically, verbally and emotionally abusive, but I could never connect the emotions with the memories - it was like watching a movie in a really detached way.

Of course, as you'd be aware, that's because children in those sorts of situations have to put their emotions mostly to one side all their young lives just so they can survive childhood - there's noone to process them with, and you can't get on with constructive activities that will help you get away if you're falling down a black hole. As a child, I concentrated very seriously on schoolwork as a road to eventual independence, and that paid off. I entered university on the fast track at 16, graduated with a double science degree and the top student prize, and worked initially as a research scientist, and later on as an educator, first at university and later on in high schools, where I taught freely across the physical and life sciences, as well as English and English Literature, in academic courses for students aiming to enter university. I really enjoyed working with the 12-17 age group in part because they have amazing brains, and in part because I knew what life was really like behind closed doors for some of these young people, and could be a warm, positive, encouraging adult for them in the way some of my own teachers along the road had been for me, which had made a _huge_ difference to my life.

Tellingly, all my adult life, and particularly around times of stress, I had these intermittent weird episodes where I would wake up in the middle of the night drenched in sweat with my heart racing and shocking nausea. There was no remembered nightmare, I'd not been mulling over anything, there was no reason I could see for it - the whole thing was like someone injected a load of adrenaline into my backside when I was sleeping - an entirely physical thing. Medically, adrenal tumours were on the list of possible explanations, but I didn't have those. As it didn't happen too often unless I was stressed out, I just shrugged my shoulders and decided I had a weird, but mostly harmless, physical malfunction.

Around four years ago though, I was getting a lot of these (in the lead-up to Christmas and our traditional visit to our birth families) and then suddenly had actual visual memories during these episodes, and then it became rather obvious what was going on. I asked my GP, "Why now? Why all this delay?" - and she said it's typical for these things not to be allowed to surface, by that survival mechanism, until you've been in a healthy, supportive relationship for years and you feel thoroughly safe - and until potentially falling apart doesn't threaten your physical survival, e.g. because unable to do your paid work when processing something so enormous.

The weird episodes I'd been having were emotional flashbacks, initially divorced from the specific situations which had produced them. (I wrote about those here https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...s-other-people-479466/page121/#post1970627599 if further detail would be helpful or interesting for anyone - emotional health issues ought to be better understood by everyone, whether or not they had childhood adversity.) Turns out there's the cerebrum, where we do our thinking, and then there's the more evolutionarily ancient, basic-equipment parts of the brain, which are responsible for emotions and survival. These very effectively store and process potential survival threat situations, in a non-verbal manner - and guess where else everyone here can really see this in their lives? With horses, of course - all that hypervigilance and run first, ask questions later setup that's completely necessary for an animal whose biggest survival threat along all its evolutionary history has been predators jumping at them... (and that's one big reason so many of us with those kinds of histories are drawn to horses and very good at understanding and communicating with them...)

This is a huge subject, and I'm going to cut it short here. Anyway, I got married in my mid-30s to a decent, supportive, funny, clever, highly interesting and ethical man - also from a dysfunctional (although not violent) family. Like in most relationships, we had some teething problems - you're going to get those more if you don't come from a loving, healthy family, as you'll certainly be aware. Like in every healthy relationship, you can't take things for granted, you have to keep working on it, and you're going to bring your emotional baggage to the table in times of stress and then have to work on that baggage again (it does get smaller if you don't shove it under the carpet), you have to keep learning and growing, but you should _also_ be having a ton of fun and companionship and shared adventures, and be best of friends. (If people were to ask me what the most important foundations for a healthy marriage are, I would say close friendship and respect. Close friendship also implies mental compatibility.)



Hello! :wave: This is us half a year ago on Brett's traditional mountain climb to celebrate his birthday. The internet is a bit impersonal, so I try to always underscore that we're all real human beings, not some sort of detached blobs floating in a void. ;-)

Brett and I are monogamous by disposition, and in our case have no romantic or other interest in getting together with other people on that level. Mind you, a really good friend of mine, when we were both in our early 30s and single, used to joke that one man was not enough, you had to have three - one for the bedroom, one for helping with home maintenance, and one for meaningful conversations. :rofl: My husband thinks this is hilarious, but then he ticked all three boxes, so he may well laugh.  We're coming up to our 11th wedding anniversary next month, and are really enjoying our journey with each other.

I have no moral quibbles with consensual polyamory - we're all different - and I'm a staunch supporter of LGBTQI+, marriage equality, etc. I do understand that some people have open marriages and some are happy with that, and that to some people, marriage is a lifelong commitment, but not necessarily to the exclusion of all others. There's polygamy through a lot of cultures and traditions (oddly, usually about the male with a female harem and moral outrage when it's the other way around), and in the history of the Western middle and upper classes, marriage was often a business and family arrangement, rather than about love and respect.

My alarm bells about your situation aren't to do with the idea of open or polyamorous marriages. I actually had a little side thought - when you come from a really traumatic background, the idea of your world falling apart again is so hideous that I can see why some people wouldn't want to put all their eggs in one basket (in my case, I refused to put my eggs in _any_ basket for much of my 20s, and learnt to live on my own, which was actually really good for me). We're all mere humans, and it's one heck of a gamble to give another fallible person so much power over our wellbeing and happiness. A friend of mine is just struggling with being ditched for a 20-something by her husband of 30 years when he turned 50, and is completely unimpressed and dealing with a world that has exploded without warning. It's a really rough ride. Had she been married to two people, she'd have some sort of buffer I suppose. (But part of becoming healthy people is also that you have to know you'd be able to cope with the potential death of, or defection by, your partner, and to reinvent yourself and create fresh meaning after such a possible event. Healthy love starts with healthy self-love and with assuming adult responsibility for our own feelings and lives, rather than finding someone else to do that for us.)

OK, back to the alarm bells, from that little side track. ;-) I agree with everyone else who says "run" here, because a relationship is not healthy without respect. There's a big difference between someone losing their temper occasionally and then assuming responsibility for working on that issue of theirs, while making amends with anyone who was hurt or harmed in the process, and a consistent *pattern* of disrespect and abusive outbursts that has developed (sometimes with the empty "I'll never do it again" and subsequent "love bombing", presents, flowers, heart-rending letters of faux repentance etc characterising some early-stage abusive romantic relationships).

Once you have a pattern like that, a) most relationships won't graduate to healthy lifelong material, and b) the few that do can only do so by the people involved drawing back from each other and working seriously on their own stuff, not for the sake of keeping the relationship, but for the more fundamental sake of wanting to become better people - and it doesn't work unless this is genuine and each person is seriously doing that. If people only go through the motions to "save their relationship" then they'll revert to square one the moment they feel secure of their relationship again. This will then become a permanently dysfunctional, in all probablility codependent, relationship, in which neither person can substantially grow or evolve or develop seriously as a human being, and reach anything near their positive potential. And many, many people in this world are stuck in such relationships, which are like Neanderthal caves (/little shops of horror).

In a healthy relationship, you bring out the best in each other, both consciously and unconsciously. You actually become objectively better human beings. You _each_ become better at being kind and respectful, at understanding, learning and achieving goals, at honouring commitments, seeing other points of view, engaging in healthy activities, connecting with community and the planet etc etc. You _each_ become more like the sort of person you want to become - but at the same time, you're already valued for who you are right now.

If a relationship makes it harder for you to be you and to grow and to contribute to the wider community, then it's not a healthy relationship.

If I was put in your shoes, I'd not marry this guy (but I'm not in your shoes!). You intended may be a fundamentally OK but immature person with their own baggage to work through, who's not yet ready for a healthy relationship, and won't be unless he does some serious soul-searching on his own and for the right reasons. Or, your intended may be the sinister sort of person who picks up vulnerable young women who come from traumatic backgrounds, trauma bonds with them (the difference between trauma bonding and healthy bonding is worth knowing), and after seeming like the knight in shining armour, once completely secure of you, throws the switch and becomes possessive and abusive and your worst childhood nightmare all over again. 



This happens all the time, to lots of real people from dysfunctional backgrounds - and it happened to me, in my first serious relationship when I was in my early 20s (thankfully, not married, no children and eventually got away). The problem is, when your birth family was violent and abusive, you're a prime target for bullies and narcissistic romantic partners when you're young - because it's a familiar pattern, and because people who grew up in respectful, loving environments are better at recognising and calling out this sort of stuff, and at having relationships which aren't fundamentally based on trauma bonding. When you're not from a respectful, loving family, you have to learn that either the hard way, or educate yourself on the ins and outs of human dysfunction.

This is the resource I wish I'd had as a teenager:

https://littleredsurvivor.com/

This is also very useful:

https://theinvisiblescar.wordpress.com/

It's probably more useful to thoroughly understand and work through your family of origin stuff, than to work on the current-relationship stuff, because it's our family of origin that's shaped us so much originally (and much of it unconsciously, for us, and against our own wills and covert ideals), and all that holds the hidden key to the patterns you see in your early romantic relationships (20s is still early ). Also, to keep finding healthy, safe, decent people to hang out with, and to minimise your contact with people who are destructive to your wellbeing and emotional health.

This thing you said: _Not to mention, because of my childhood, I want to raise my own future children with the kind of father that doesn't get aggressive. I want them to be raised with an experience that cements "violence is not the answer"._

...I think that's a really important idea you've got. Isn't it funny how our own maternal instincts can tell us things about the men we may be attracted to, that's not in their favour? The deciding crunch factor in my leaving my first serious romantic partner (dysfunctional relationship) at age 24 was thinking to myself one day, "I'm never going to have children, because I wouldn't want them to live like this." And then a little voice at the back of my mind said, "So why are you accepting that for yourself?" Wow. Point taken - that was it for me. Now get that very live and strong maternal instinct of yours, and put it to your own service - and mother your own self, and the little girl you once were, and be to her the kind of mother that you ought to have had. :hug:

Love and best wishes

Sue


 PS: Still awake? :rofl:


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

SueC, thank you so much for your thought provoking post. Another round of questions to answer;


*Whinnie:*
_I have to admit I am confused how someone can be polyamorous with zero sex drive. Am I not understanding some definitions here?_
Polyamoury doesn't have to be about sexual intimacy, it can be emotional, or sexual, or both. That said, I have a sex drive for my other partner.. :|

*SueC*_
Around four years ago though, ..... and then suddenly had actual visual memories during these episodes.
_This happened to me about a year back. Fiance doesn't believe what I saw actually happened, even though a ton more details have come to light since the initial 'dream'.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

waresbear said:


> You are engaged? Keep in mind what is happening now is the best as it gets. The engagement is the fantasy period, then things get real. If you don't like what's happening now, hang on for worse.


:racing:

Hello, @*waresbear* ! :wave: Had to smile, and I generally agree - if it's troubled before you're even married, it's unlikely to get better. 

One caveat - a good relationship with an untroubled start _can_ get even better after marriage. Nearly eleven years in, our marriage is better than the (somewhat rose-tinted, even for us when in our 30s) engagement fantasy period, as you so eloquently put it - _because_ it's more real now. Because we actually know each other, and ourselves, a whole lot better, and because the relationship has been tested, and because we're no longer in love with idealised versions of the other, but in love with who each other really are, and even though we now know each other's flaws and foibles very well. And because we've shared the same road for a quarter of our lives now, had many adventures together, and managed to do things together that we could not have done by ourselves. And more importantly, because love, respect and being each other's best friends is more important than being "in love". inkunicorn::blueunicorn:

PS My DH thinks mammary glands should come into what I'm saying somehow. :rofl:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Mythilus said:


> *SueC*_
> Around four years ago though, ..... and then suddenly had actual visual memories during these episodes.
> _This happened to me about a year back. Fiance doesn't believe what I saw actually happened, even though a ton more details have come to light since the initial 'dream'.


Hmmm. Sometimes it's hard to know what was real, especially if people have been gaslighting you. But if it's coming back with flashbacks that were previously emotional / physical only (no memories, not a nightmare) then there's a good chance it's from an early traumatic memory. Brains aren't renowned for completely accurate recall, but they do tend to do better when it's about survival, and it's worth taking it seriously, and then doing a bit of forensic work if you're so inclined.

Talking to old childhood friends from primary school, for example, just in recent years, I was surprised to find that they had picked up on a lot of what was going on for me, even though I didn't talk much about it to other children as a primary school child (and not at all to adults, for fear of reprisals, which is exactly what happened when I went to the police because of intolerable domestic violence at age 14). They too remembered some of the things I was told I had only imagined.

From the time I was a teenager, some of the things (like getting dragged behind a car when I was 15) happened with citizen witnesses around who actually wanted me to go to the police about it (but I had to put it to one side emotionally as I was studying for crucial examinations, and the police hadn't been very helpful when I was 14 anyway - they warned my family and then put me back with them, and you can guess what happened next). Oh, and yes, my parents still insisted for a long time that this citizen-witnessed car incident never happened, or at least that I'd gotten it wrong and it was somehow my fault. Yet with this, and with quite a few other disputed things, when I started asking people who'd known me as a young person, I have had so many people back me up along the way and tell me they were seeing it too - including teachers, friends, and the parents of friends who met my parents. Although hiding it is one of the main aims of chronically abusive people, it wasn't always possible for them, so the supporting evidence just started stacking up that said, "These things did really happen, you're not some crazy person with a warped brain making it all up, they're simply pretending it didn't happen, or didn't happen _like that_."

It's been said that the truly crazy people never actually doubt their own sanity. I'm not sure how correct that is, but it does seem to apply to the few objectively crazy people I have met - and I don't mean good-crazy, as in an exuberant person, I mean deranged-and-destructive crazy, like a methamphetamine addict in the neighbourhood who's gone after backpackers with an axe, kicks his animals, etc. He's all sane, according to him - it's the world that's the problem, apparently.

It's really hard to accept emotionally that the people who were supposed to love and protect you abused you, and lied to you. Stockholm Syndrome is an interesting topic to look up.


Just going to comment on two issues brought up by others:

*1. Financial Independence* - completely crucial so you can't get trapped in dysfunctional situations, and also for all the reasons @*Celeste* outlined - standing on your own feet, connecting with community, using your gifts in the service of others, etc. I loved @*loosie* 's idea of a _pluck-off fund_. :rofl: In dysfunctional relationships, people are often encouraged to become financially dependent on the abusive/controlling person, or even forbidden to work, as my mother was by my father, and as married women generally were by society not so long ago. Thank you @*Celeste* , @*knightrider* and all the other women senior to me around here who burnt their bras in the 60s and 70s to help draw attention to glaring double standards in dire need of fixing. :bowwdown:  :cheers:

Women's shelters are available to help women who aren't financially independent to leave situations of domestic violence and emotional abuse and find their own feet, work etc - even "just" emotional abuse, although these services would classify your fiance's behaviour as physical intimidation. These are also places where you can talk to people well versed in all the forms of domestic abuse to get your bearings, without payment, even if you're not actually planning on leaving. The really sad thing is how hard it is to get access to good-quality mental health professionals in Australia if you don't have much money. This brings me to the next point:


*2. Professional help* - two problems: Access and quality. In theory, all Australians who need it have access to mental health services via their GP, through a mental health plan. This usually works out to five discounted sessions with some sort of person with a certificate, and unfortunately, some of the people you can get referred to are basically McCounsellors, not trained psychologists or psychiatrists, and may have very little idea about things like PTSD, domestic violence, etc. Even some of the trained psychologists are sadly lacking in that department, since you only need to score 50% in your final university examinations to get your piece of paper, and also you don't actually have to be a nice person either. So all this can be really hit-and-miss, and expensive.

From the time I was a university student, I periodically consulted professional people to extricate myself from the morass of my upbringing. Some of these people were extremely helpful, some worse than useless. The good ones were usually expensive, or had expensive gaps - and it can be really difficult to afford them. One of the best people I ever talked to was a specialist psychiatrist who was available to us for free because I was in the public service at the time in a high-stress job, and it would have been difficult for me to pay him otherwise, especially on a longer-term basis. But, he drew things to my attention that were incredibly useful - the biggest bombshell was, "All of the tests you've done indicate you had extreme emotional deprivation as a child, but you've compensated incredibly well, which is rare." Whew. I was 28, and had only gone because I wanted to know why I had such a gap between thinking and feeling at the time - why I could _know_ I'd not done something I'd been accused of, for instance, and yet feel like the guiltiest person in the planet. And suddenly, here was someone saying I was basically unnurtured and unsupported by my parents in my childhood - which opinion I'd already been given on paper by a teacher when I was 16, which I'd _felt_ all my life, but pushed to the side, and of course, my parents are the biggest martyrs imaginable when they list all the sacrifices they made for their offspring (which, when it comes down to it, was actually just their legal obligation to feed, clothe and shelter their children and supervise them when they weren't at school - they had no clue about nurturing and supporting).

Another bright spark amongst the professionals for me was someone from the Anglicare relationships section in Perth, through whom I first got introduced to family-of-origin work when I was 23 and at the tail end of my first serious (and dysfunctional) relationship. That's really, really valuable stuff, and Anglicare/KinWay actually have discounted services that are generally affordable for working people (and apparently they will work with unemployed people for a gold coin donation - you may want to check that), both on relationship counselling and on dealing with a childhood background of domestic violence. I went back to that again later at intervals as well. Sometimes there were excellent people, sometimes there were mediocre people - but everyone there was trying, and added a piece to the puzzle.

Interestingly though, nobody raised the concept with me that I might have PTSD under the surface from chronic and often extreme violence in childhood, and that is a big thing to have missed. I know I wasn't symptomatic (other than the nighttime episodes described earlier), but from what I've read since, it's basically a given for people who come from violent families.

It can take a long time to put the pieces together, and while good professionals can be really valuable (when you can find them/afford them), I think doing your own homework and educating yourself extensively when you're on your own is also crucial to getting through all this stuff, and making it more affordable, so that time spent with professionals isn't just spent going around in circles, or talking about how you're feeling etc.

When you do talk to professionals, make sure you talk to professionals trained in the ins and outs of family violence - I think both Anglicare and Relationships Australia have specialised programmes for that now. If you're in a capital city, you're likely to have a great deal of useful services on offer these days (I've spent most of my life in rural areas).

Hope some of that is helpful. And because I'm Generation X and enjoy a good laugh, here's one of my favourite poking-fun songs on the topic:


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Short response just to update that we had a talk and I told him if he doesn't change this behaviour I will be leaving him and he has promised to seek help.


**EDIT** Also if he doesn't show signs of working toward change within the month, I am done and I'm going.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Mythilus said:


> Short response just to update that we had a talk and I told him if he doesn't change this behaviour I will be leaving him and he has promised to seek help.
> 
> 
> **EDIT** Also if he doesn't show signs of working toward change within the month, I am done and I'm going.



I'm glad you have come to a conclusion that you can accept. I would like to suggest though that in a relationship the problem is never just one person. I think maybe you should seek some sort of couples help if you really want to make this work but honestly, I'm old fashioned and I don't understand more than two in a relationship. It makes me feel as though you have disposeable partners. Is he also of the belief that you can love more than one person at the same time?


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Hold up- " Polyamoury doesn't have to be about sexual intimacy, it can be emotional, or sexual, or both. That said, I have a sex drive for my other partner.. "

Turns out I was right the first time. This guy is footing the bills, another man gets the thrills, and he needs therapy for balking and fussing? 

Hayal naw. Maybe this therapist will at least convince him to wise up.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

aubie said:


> Hold up- " Polyamoury doesn't have to be about sexual intimacy, it can be emotional, or sexual, or both. That said, I have a sex drive for my other partner.. "
> 
> Turns out I was right the first time. This guy is footing the bills, another man gets the thrills, and he needs therapy for balking and fussing?
> 
> Hayal naw. Maybe this therapist will at least convince him to wise up.



Sounds like someone needs serious professional help to me.. 

Don't blame the one guy for putting up a fuss when he's paying the bills and she's having sex with someone else. 

Something is seriously wrong with that picture.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When you find someone that you truly love then there is no room for any other romantic or sexual relationships in your life.
Relationships/marriages based on 'convenience' rather than love only work if both partners are singing from the same page rather than one of them only going along with it to try to keep the other one happy.
If you continue on this current route, at some point your fiancé will find someone who does love him and want him and only him and you won't see him for the dust cloud as he runs away


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Mythilus said:


> SueC, thank you so much for your thought provoking post. Another round of questions to answer;
> 
> 
> *Whinnie:*
> ...


It appears as though you are having sex with one guy and expecting the other to support you financially. I think it is only fair that you let him go. It may be that you are giving him mixed signals abut loving him when maybe it is the financial support you love. It also appears he is not OK with no sex. Did you discuss your lack of sexual interest with him when you were first together 5 1/2 years ago? Has he really been OK with it for all these years? 

At any rate, looks like you two are not on the same page and he is acting out, but I kind of don't blame him.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Save your money you'll be spending for a divorce later down the road, and leave.

To each their own regarding polyamorous relationships.

If you're not happy with the guy, break it off.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Ah, the clot thickens... 

It does sound to me like your fiance is being emotionally abusive and that there is no good excuse for that. And that as much as he may intend & 'try' to change now, realistically, this very rarely happens long term.

I for one don't believe a committed, loving, respectful relationship must be exclusive to all but a couple. I know 3 separate long term, great, strong relationships that are either 'open' or trios. However, it doesnt sound like this is one of those, and while I wouldnt excuse the abuse, I can well sympathize with fiance's angst & frustration, if that us behind it.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

You're gonna leave without the house?
I didn't know women did that.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Celeste said:


> Sure, Dolly Parton's husband put up with it, but she is rich.



She also has a couple of other really nice assets, just sayin....


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

Honestly, I think my lack of sex drive toward my fiance was because of the nonsense he was pulling.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Mythilus said:


> Honestly, I think my lack of sex drive toward my fiance was because of the nonsense he was pulling.



Actually being sexually attracted to someone who reminds you of your violent caregivers would be a whole different kettle of psychotherapy! ;-)


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## Northerngal (Dec 27, 2018)

Ok this relationship sounds totally messed up! I don't really blame your fiancé for being upset! Cancel the marriage for your sake as well as his!! Marriage was created by God and designed to be one man and one woman pledged to each other till death do them part. Those who want to be joined without Christ may as well just shack up. Not have one man pay the bills while you sleep around with another. I've seen enough wrecked relationships that result from people being unable to commit to one another. It pains me to see that *innocent children* usually suffer the most... children that were *unplanned* and *aborted*... *abused*... *emotionally unstable*... all because of the careless choices of *adults*. I know there aren't any kids involved here... yet... as far as I know... but for the sake of all involved *DON'T* marry the guy. If you can't commit then don't. Get help. I know I'll probably get bashed but I'm 100% old fashioned and in todays society that is unacceptable. I wish you the best.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

IMO one can't change what another person fundamentally is. Your fiancé (aka roommate) has a pattern of verbally expressing his anger/frustration and you have a pattern of cringing from verbal expressions of anger/frustration. Would suggest that if he is not having sex, and you are, he is frustrated. Maybe instead of trying to change him you should find him a chick...

Sounds like you two are incompatible on a basic level. Not sure couple therapy is the way to go. 

IMO you need to find a different place to stay as you two really aren't compatible even as just roommates. 

I would not suggest you move in with guy #2 either. Seems like you have a pattern of jumping from guy to guy. IMO you need to live alone for a year at least and get intensive therapy to help you cope with your over-reactions. 

The world can't change just to suit you. You can only change you, not anyone else. Some people yell, some people don't. Just the way some people are wired. 

I can't make a judgement over the internet, with second-hand information, on determining if your roommate is acting in a verbally abusive manor or not. He might be, or he might not. But if you don't like his behavior and can't deal with it, then you should leave and get professional help. 

You have to have a coping strategy to deal with those who yell. What happens if a boss yells at you? You can't just dissolve into a puddle. You must learn different patterns of behavior. If you don't, IMO all your relationships (single or multiple) are doomed to failure. 

Not sure why you posted on a horse forum; do you even ride? Horses can be really great therapy... 


PS - I speak from personal experience. Learning to stand still and refuse to cower from angry people is empowering...


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## Livvy878 (Feb 28, 2017)

I have been married to the most wonderful man for 41 years in April, and since I met him I have NEVER ever looked or thought about any one else, and either has he. I can't understand why you could ever 'love' any other man if you truly loved your partner. I don't wonder that he is this way when he knows about the other man, most men wouldn't be happy about it either.
You should not marry your partner until you sort out who your own life and sort out what you really want out of life, and remember that there are only TWO people in a marriage!!!


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## pennywise (Feb 1, 2016)

Mythilus said:


> Small background info, been with my partner 5 1/2 years, engaged for 1 year. I am 25, he is 33.
> 
> 
> With our approaching wedding, I am starting to seriously think about my fiance and my relationship. He is, for the most part, a wonderful, kind, caring man. He helped me through my toughest time and helped me cope with PTSD and depression.
> ...


Sometimes people try to convince us that changing who they are/what they do/how they act is hard, but it's not. There are some things you can't help--like your sex drive or your past of abuse. These are reactions that happen deep inside us and if you want to change those, you've got to go trough some heavy therapy. _You_ should want to overcome these triggers, but the time and effort (and money) it takes, is so very much more drastic than it is for him to take notice when he's becoming angry, and making a choice about how he's going to express it. I grew up with a father who had a clear anger management problem but I remember, somehow, it changed from him slamming doors and pushing chairs, to walking away and calming down. He never hit us and never threw stuff at us, but even if you don't get abused, you imagine yourself as being the chair. And he knew it, so he did something. We can always do something when we know our actions are scaring our children or our significant others, because we should care enough about how we make them feel instead of satisfying short term anger expression by breaking things or being loud. This is how children deal with frustration, not an adult. And if he cant see it for himself, and you have to tell him very plainly how it makes you feel, and he _still_ does not value your feelings enough to make a change, I think it's very clear what your answer is. You're right: this will be a problem down the road and is it worth it, to stick it out? When you know there are people out there who would listen to you when you share your concerns and drop behaviors that hurt you? 


The paradox about it all is that you know that love and attraction is not tangible. We can build many strong relationships, friendship or otherwise, with so many people. And yet you're in the same boat as so many people who are willing to enter a marriage when it's clear it may not go well, because they feel a sense of obligation to _endure _. There should be no enduring in a loving relationship; you should never feel like you have to ignore or suffer through actions that hurt you, for the sake of marriage. You don't need marriage to be happy, don't you know it already? And that should be on both sides. As much as he does things that hurt you, don't you think your actions with the other man are hurting him as well? Is your fiancé polyamorous? Does he at least share your sensibilities? I could not imagine expecting a person who is very monogamous to be ok with their partner being with someone else... that's just mean.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

The whole polyamorous thing aside, you don't have any romantic/sexual feelings for the man you're planning to marry. That in itself should be a big red flag of NO.


Seems to me you're only with him because he's supporting you financially. To be honest, that would make me cranky and yell a lot, too. You're using him plain and simple, and that's all sorts of wrong. Stop using your past abuse as an excuse for why you don't feel romantically toward this guy anymore. You certainly aren't 'afraid' enough to stop letting him support you and pay your bills.


If you want to be with the other guy, be with him and stop stringing along the first one. Good relationships, (poly, monogamous, or otherwise) are built on TRUST, and the first guy certainly can't trust you if you tell him you love him but don't show him in any way, shape or form.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Mythilus said:


> SueC, thank you so much for your thought provoking post. Another round of questions to answer;
> 
> 
> *Whinnie:*
> ...



This tells you what you need to know. Do not get married to your fiance. You are setting yourself AND him up for heartbreak. 

Open relationships are hard to maintain and generally end up being 'roommates' moreso than spouses. Or they are strictly staying married because neither partner is sexually-attracted to the other anymore, divorce is too expensive, one financially supports the other, etc. I have one friend who married a man who later came out to her as gay. They have two high-school-age sons. She left for awhile, but when it came down to it, she still loved him and they got along wonderfully and are soulmates in every other way. They are technically still married and live in a duplex and they put a large door in between the two. She has one side, he has the other. His long-time partner now lives with him and they are all friends. She is dating a widower who has been friends with them both for years. They have a wonderful relationship but it took a lot of work and understanding on both parts. I would say most open relationships end up falling apart. In your situation, you're in love with someone else and he's footing the bill. Once he finds someone who loves him and only him, he'll leave so fast you won't know what happened. Get out now. Get a job and support yourself. 

You aren't married yet and your relationship is deteriorating. That's a red flag. This is as good as it gets. You both will be hurt when you end this, but it's far worse to end it later down the road.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Northerngal said:


> Marriage was created by God and designed to be one man and one woman pledged to each other till death do them part. Those who want to be joined without Christ may as well just shack up.


That bit is offensive & so wrong to me. It should start with 'in my personal opinion...' remember that while there may be many christians here, that's not all of us.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

pennywise said:


> Sometimes people try to convince us that changing who they are/what they do/how they act is hard, but it's not. There are some things you can't help--like your sex drive or your past of abuse. These are reactions that happen deep inside us and if you want to change those, you've got to go trough some heavy therapy. _You_ should want to overcome these triggers, but the time and effort (and money) it takes, is so very much more drastic than it is for him to take notice when he's becoming angry, and making a choice about how he's going to express it. I grew up with a father who had a clear anger management problem but I remember, somehow, it changed from him slamming doors and pushing chairs, to walking away and calming down. He never hit us and never threw stuff at us, but even if you don't get abused, you imagine yourself as being the chair. And he knew it, so he did something. We can always do something when we know our actions are scaring our children or our significant others, because we should care enough about how we make them feel instead of satisfying short term anger expression by breaking things or being loud. This is how children deal with frustration, not an adult. And if he cant see it for himself, and you have to tell him very plainly how it makes you feel, and he _still_ does not value your feelings enough to make a change, I think it's very clear what your answer is. You're right: this will be a problem down the road and is it worth it, to stick it out? When you know there are people out there who would listen to you when you share your concerns and drop behaviors that hurt you?
> 
> The paradox about it all is that you know that love and attraction is not tangible. We can build many strong relationships, friendship or otherwise, with so many people. And yet you're in the same boat as so many people who are willing to enter a marriage when it's clear it may not go well, because they feel a sense of obligation to _endure _. There should be no enduring in a loving relationship; you should never feel like you have to ignore or suffer through actions that hurt you, for the sake of marriage. You don't need marriage to be happy, don't you know it already? And that should be on both sides. As much as he does things that hurt you, don't you think your actions with the other man are hurting him as well? Is your fiancé polyamorous? Does he at least share your sensibilities? I could not imagine expecting a person who is very monogamous to be ok with their partner being with someone else... that's just mean.


Such an excellent, thoughtful post, @*pennywise* .  :clap:

As to your question at the end, here was a PS from the OP from a few pages in:



Mythilus said:


> *Aubie says:*
> _This guy is being made out to be some sort of abuser. And If I missed something in the original post, correct me. But I didn't see where he had a side piece. Or that the OP met him in some sort of open relationship setting. _
> This is my bad for leaving out an important detail. When we got together, we agreed to be polyamorous. We agreed monogamy wasn't for us. He has had a few side ladies over the years that didn't stick around for various reasons.


i.e. not monogamous either, not just in word, but in deed. I don't know if the OP has had previous sides as well while in this relationship, but if not, I would find it very _interesting_ if her partner now wasn't OK with her doing the same, when it came to the crunch. This is consensual, informed polyamory from the go-get, and those are the ground rules mutually agreed to. (This is what the OP said, and that's what I'm going on.)




AnitaAnne said:


> PS - I speak from personal experience. Learning to stand still and refuse to cower from angry people is empowering...


:loveshower: this, @*AnitaAnne* . I'm so glad you found a way to do that, and I recommend that to anyone who's been in those sorts of situations. Funny that this is the one thing I learnt to do early, it just seemed to be in my DNA or soul or wherever from the beginning. As a very young child, obviously, I cowered and cried and hid myself from people, but from the time I was a teenager and reading about social justice, and actually reading the gospels, I stopped cowering because I knew then that bullying someone didn't make the bully right, and that bullying and intimidating people and treating them with disrespect was morally wrong - plus, I wasn't quite so afraid of death anymore (which is partly what terrorises the young child - but mostly, the young child is terrorised by the behaviour of the people they want to love). What Martin Luther King wrote in _Strength to Love_ applied to more than the macrocosm of society as a whole, it also applied to individual, personal situations. I read it in one sitting at age 14 and was never the same. As a lot of people said about this book, Jesus gave us an ethic in the Sermon on the Mount, MLK and Gandhi show us how to live that.

So yeah, it's very empowering not to cringe in the face of aggression, and to be completely unimpressed by it. It can be really helpful when dealing with people who don't yet have the maturity to deal with their own negative emotions constructively. And actual bullies just hate it when they can't scare you, or when you don't lose your own dignity or authenticity because of their destructive tactics. :Angel:


I also second what @*AnitaAnne* says about the value of living on your own, and not in relationships - and not even with room mates, if you can at all swing it (granny flats are great!). In unhealthy families, kids don't come out at age 18 self-assured and authentic and standing squarely on their own two feet mentally, emotionally, spiritually, practically, financially. And much as community is about interdependence, you have to be truly independent before you can be usefully interdependent with others. People coming from dysfunctional families more often than not start out codependent, because that's what family life was like. This also happened to me. Looking back, it was getting out of my first serious (and dysfunctional) relationship at age 24 and living _completely_ on my own for seven years straight after that, and therefore having the space to get some perspective and learn the things I ideally ought to have learnt in a healthy childhood, that was one of the biggest factors in my having a stable, productive adult life, and an eventual healthy, lasting relationship. 

It's an investment really worth making. So many people from dysfunctional backgrounds end up going from disastrous relationship to disastrous relationship, and that ends of being their life. Much better to take time out when you're young and still at the start of your adulthood, be a bit ascetic, have your own space and thoughts so you can develop authentically, if you weren't nurtured, or loved for your authentic self as a child. And talk to a few people who have wisdom in these areas, and can help you find your feet!

Big :hug: to @*Mythilus* , @*AnitaAnne* , and everyone else who's been through serious childhood and other adversity. 

And a PS: I'm saddened that there is still this gut reaction idea, in 2019, that the person staying at home is necessarily sponging off the income earner, and that this is necessarily their prime motivation for being in that relationship. This might be the case for a minority of people, but just to _assume_ that automatically is actually really disrespectful, and generally factually incorrect. Usually, in single-income households, the other person is working as many, if not more, hours than the income earner, for their mutual good - they just don't get paid for it (I can pull up the Australian statistics on this if anyone wants them). And, if the income earner were to have to formally employ someone to do all the housekeeping, shopping, gardening, cooking and organising that the at-home person does, they usually couldn't afford that level of service.


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## Northerngal (Dec 27, 2018)

Northerngal said:


> Marriage was created by God and designed to be one man and one woman pledged to each other till death do them part. Those who want to be joined without Christ may as well just shack up. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

It's nice to see people actually referring to a dictionary - I love dictionaries!  It is worth keeping in mind, though, that our main English language dictionaries in Australia, the UK and America represent the use of the language in those particular cultures, at that particular time, and that languages, or definitions, are not generally set in stone. Therefore, the UK's Oxford English dictionary is updating the term not to be gender-specific, and Australia's Macquarie has already done so, in line with the Marriage Equality vote in Australia. This is a nice change not just for non-heterosexual people who want to get married, but also for people born as intersexes / no specific gender who don't want to be excluded from the opportunity to marry the person they love and wish to commit to, just like any other adult.

And it's not the first time the definition of marriage has changed, thank goodness. Not _that_ long ago, marriage made the woman the property of the man - the links below make interesting reading:

https://www.quora.com/Are-women-the-property-of-their-husbands

https://www.quora.com/In-what-year-...private-property-of-their-husbands-in-England

Within the lifetime experiences of people I know, marriage in our culture used to automatically disqualify women from participating in the public service and other work, and a husband had the legal right to have non-consensual intercourse with his wife. The changes made in the last few hundred years were necessary because the previous practices weren't fair and equitable, but each time there was a change, a lot of people argued there shouldn't be one.

It's also interesting that marriage between two partners based on love and respect is a relatively modern concept. It wasn't always between two partners, and it certainly wasn't always about love and respect (and still often isn't). Historically, it was often about property arrangements and inheritance.

Polygamous marriages were the norm in many nomadic and indigenous cultures historically, usually one man to multiple women, including in the indigenous cultures of Native Australians and Native Americans. They are still legally and / or socially accepted in a number of cultures around the world. They were the norm in the Old Testament, and even polygamous men didn't necessarily limit themselves to their legal wives sexually, emotionally etc - Solomon was reported to have had 700 wives and 300 concubines (imagine the roster :rofl - David also had multiples of either.

Personally, I think the modern Australian (and Irish, etc etc) legal definition of marriage is a lot more equitable than the older definitions. Those current definitions of marriage require the consent of both parties, and confer equal rights in the matter to men and women, and to people of different sexual orientations, so that every adult can now choose to marry the person they love, by mutual consent.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Marriage (In my opinion) is when two people (a man and a women) become one.

That being said - I understand there are other types of unions that are also called marriage (same sex couples) but in that, it's still couples and they are still pledging to be faithful to each other. They are still uniting, marrying, whatever - for love. I get that some people have different relationship views where they don't look at sex in the same way. It's seen as a recreational kind of thing and not as being intimate with ones partner.

What I don't understand is the marriage of convenience. Marrying for money or housing or stability seems off. It doesn't seem fair to either person and I personally find that idea as offensive becuase it go's against my beliefs which are just as important as those of others. Marriage should not be taken lightly and I think - by reading through these threads... Marriage is not the correct option for the OP or for the boyfriend. Staying together also seems pretty unfair to the boyfriend because he is not getting anything in return. He's paying for everything and the sex thing is confusing. At one point you say when you want to kiss him he says bad timing but then you say that you have no sexual interest in him so I wonder, are you only wanting to get intimate when he is at the end of his rope? Seems unfair.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

aubie said:


> He has the view most men do. The fiancé does not like being cucked. Most men don't and would have been gone .


This is a harsh truth. I'm very non-judgmental. You do you.

BUT.

I've known many, many people who were in open relationships, claimed to be polyamorous. That's well and good.

They always acted superior to people in a monogamous relationship btw. I always just smiled and nodded.

Out of the many people I know who stated that's who they are, not one of them are happy. All of their marriages ended in a catastrophic and messy divorce... because Humans are territorial. Sooner or later someone (Usually the male when we're talking about a hetero marriage) always ends up very unhappy and resentful and then things blow sky high. I've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen it.

OP: I'm not judging you. I am not. That's not who I am - but you need to step back from him, and you need to truly look deep into yourself and decide if this is 'for real' or if it's a phase. If it's really you, and you come to this conclusion after a LOT of introspection and soul searching, you're going to have to find someone who not only verbally says it's okay, but someone truly okay with it. And that person, in my experience, is a unicorn. That's not him. He sounds deeply resentful and festering about this and it's 'leaking out' if you will.




PS



I don't mean hook up with an actual unicorn... that would be weird. And it is universally known that unicorns are jerks


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I don't mean hook up with an actual unicorn... that would be weird. And it is universally known that unicorns are jerks



I hate to break this news, but unicorns don't exist. Now if you had used Pegasus Although often misused in popular culture, the term "Pegasus" is a proper noun, referring to a particular character, whereas the term "pterippus" (plural: "pterippi") is the generic name for the species of winged horses. Pegasus is usually depicted as pure white in color. Pegasus is a child of the Olympian god Poseidon. He was foaled by the Gorgon Medusa upon her death, when the hero Perseus decapitated her. Pegasus is the brother of Chrysaor and the uncle of Geryon. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus

So we know roughly when he was born, his father, mother, brother and his nephew.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

RegalCharm said:


> I hate to break this news, but unicorns don't exist. Now if you had used Pegasus Although often misused in popular culture, the term "Pegasus" is a proper noun, referring to a particular character, whereas the term "pterippus" (plural: "pterippi") is the generic name for the species of winged horses. Pegasus is usually depicted as pure white in color. Pegasus is a child of the Olympian god Poseidon. He was foaled by the Gorgon Medusa upon her death, when the hero Perseus decapitated her. Pegasus is the brother of Chrysaor and the uncle of Geryon.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus
> 
> So we know roughly when he was born, his father, mother, brother and his nephew.



Ahhhh A fellow mythology nerd! Well met sir, well met!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

RegalCharm said:


> I hate to break this news, but unicorns don't exist. Now if you had used Pegasus Although often misused in popular culture, the term "Pegasus" is a proper noun, referring to a particular character, whereas the term "pterippus" (plural: "pterippi") is the generic name for the species of winged horses. Pegasus is usually depicted as pure white in color. Pegasus is a child of the Olympian god Poseidon. He was foaled by the Gorgon Medusa upon her death, when the hero Perseus decapitated her. Pegasus is the brother of Chrysaor and the uncle of Geryon.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus
> 
> So we know roughly when he was born, his father, mother, brother and his nephew.


Wait. The god of water.. had sex with the snake headed lady... and they had a Pegasus?

Good Golly Man! Must you blow my mind on EVERY thread?!

PS.... I used to love reading these types of stories...


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

farmpony84 said:


> Wait. The god of water.. had sex with the snake headed lady... and they had a Pegasus?
> 
> Good Golly Man! Must you blow my mind on EVERY thread?!
> 
> PS.... I used to love reading these types of stories...


Remember when they used to make SENSE? I mean, I used to didn't blink an eye at Sleipnir's parentage. LOL

I mean... Now I see Tom Hiddleston as Loki in my head and yeah. It gets really weird from there on....


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Remember when they used to make SENSE? I mean, I used to didn't blink an eye at Sleipnir's parentage. LOL
> 
> I mean... Now I see Tom Hiddleston as Loki in my head and yeah. It gets really weird from there on....


That would make history if Hiddleston birthed an 8 legged foal.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

> And a PS: I'm saddened that there is still this gut reaction idea, in 2019, that the person staying at home is necessarily sponging off the income earner, and that this is necessarily their prime motivation for being in that relationship. This might be the case for a minority of people, but just to _assume_ that automatically is actually really disrespectful, and generally factually incorrect. Usually, in single-income households, the other person is working as many, if not more, hours than the income earner, for their mutual good - they just don't get paid for it (I can pull up the Australian statistics on this if anyone wants them). And, if the income earner were to have to formally employ someone to do all the housekeeping, shopping, gardening, cooking and organising that the at-home person does, they usually couldn't afford that level of service.


My comment regarding OP staying for financial gain was a response to her saying that she didn't want to leave because she had no job and couldn't afford to. Also, she has no sexual interest in her "fiance". Keeping in mind we are not really getting an objective description of the relationship since it is a one sided perspective, it is very possible that what is described as "abuse" by her is a reaction of a frustrated person who feels betrayed. It appears the fiance is NOT polyamorous, that she may have met him on a gaming site and maybe the open relationship thing was OK for 4 1/2 years. But at the point of engagement to be married, it appears he was committed to the relationship and she is not. Pretty easy for me to see, at least, that they both need to walk away.


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## LlamaPacker (Aug 29, 2016)

So now we get to the real reason. He's the meal ticket. Doesn't seem fair to me to use the guy now and then when you are somehow more financially capable, to leave since he's no longer want you wanted in the first place. Seen it happen too many times before, usually after a little kid in tow to be the one who suffers.



And thanks to the SuperModerator for explaining about that little bug running around under my screen. Remembered after sleeping on it that I'd seen it about a year ago (was thinking does it always come up right after a New Year?), had worried about it, stayed off HF for awhile, hadn't seen it in a long time and now find out that you've put it there to keep us alert. Almost like an April Fool's joke, maybe. What a relief to hear that explanation!


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## Mythilus (Aug 16, 2010)

It has been almost a year since this post. Thought I'd let you all know that I broke up with this partner. I couldn't deal any more. He had many opportunities to change but he didnt.


Now I am with a lovely man who is everything I could want in a partner. Except...he doesn't ride horses  lol I will train him.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It's always good to have an update. 



I will say this - You can't go into a relationship or be in a relationship and expect the other person to change. Nor should they expect it of you. If you can't live with the total package and there is no coming to terms then time to exit. Relationships are like a teeter totter. There are highs and lows for each side but if you can't find that balance in the middle where both can have there feet on the ground then time to find get off.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Good decision!


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