# Is it safe/ok to ride a horse that doesn't full respect you?



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I need some advice on where you feel I should go from here.

I was having a chat with my new trainer tonight, she asked what I would like to work on in this Saturdays lesson and asked why Ive been putting off me getting on my horses back. I said that her groundwork had a lot of holes from her previous owner and I had to go back from the very start and fill them. She said thats understandable.

As you all know Ive had my horse for 3 months now, tomorrow is technically 3 months. Though her and I's partnership still is a working progress and has taken a lot longer than I was originally expecting, she is night and day better than when I first got her, and I mean a huge difference. But she still tests me, everyday. All the trainers Ive talked to, said its normal because shes young and not to see "her testing me" as a bad thing even if she does it everyday. Shes young, shes a mare and Ive still only had her for 3 months (which technically is not long at all).

Heres the thing, all the trainers Ive worked with since I got her (two and now onto the third) and other boarders (at the old barn) have all said the same thing recently. They've all noticed and commented that my horse has become attached to me and likes me. She has become familiar with me, comfortable with me leading and handling her, grooming her, being around me, etc. 

I do feel a lot of this is true as I do feel that by me having seen her every single day since Ive gotten her (yes every single day Ive seen her) and her and I spending a lot of time together, she has become comfortable with me and attached. But I do question (and it absolutely kills me inside saying this) how much she respects me. When she tests me, she can really test me.

Now you all know the previous coach I was using for 3 lessons who gave me the endless lesson sheets with non stop excersizes. He swore on his own grave that my horse (and any horse for that matter) needs to perfect every single ground work excersize in his extensive program in order to have them safe in the saddle, or else its a huge safety risk for the rider.

He truly believes that even though my horse tests me daily, her and I have a very nice partnership formed and she respects me.

Now the new trainer I have now, I asked her about whether or not groundwork has to be near perfect with no holes before getting up on the saddle, she says, uhh somewhat but just because a horse has holes in their groundwork doesnt mean you shouldnt ride...she says I cant keep just going groundwork with her non stop (as Ive been doing ground work ever since I got her and havent ridden her yet). She said I absolutely need to get on her back as the next step. She says to get on her back, ride her with basic walk ons, woahs and stands for 15 mins the first few rides. She says you build trust when on their back. Everything will start coming together more and the dots will be connecting quicker once I get on her back.

Do I feel my horse is safe and ready enough for me to get on her back? For a basic, woah, walk on and stand session just going around the arena, yes...absolutely yes. Do I feel she is safe and ready enough to get on her back to trot or canter on? No and that is because I need to work on her canter some more on a line to smooth it out and iron out the kinks.

I still have the same feeling that Ive had for the past 2 months, though I know groundwork will never be perfect and I cant expect my horses to be (or else we could be doing this for years), I do wonder if I should continue filling these holes in her ground work and miscellaneous stuff here and there before riding her, or ride her and see how it goes in the first couple rides and evaluate from there?


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Not really enough info. How much training has the horse had? How experienced are you with riding/training green horses. What kind of groundwork are you referring to? Does she lead well? Walk, trot, turn, woah easily? Can you control her on the ground in any and all circumstances. If you're worried about getting on her back then my advise is don't - get an experienced trainer to put some good hours into her. So much easier to train a horse from scratch then it is to fix a horse with nasty habits.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

OoLaurenoO said:


> Not really enough info. How much training has the horse had? How experienced are you with riding/training green horses. What kind of groundwork are you referring to? Does she lead well? Walk, trot, turn, woah easily? Can you control her on the ground in any and all circumstances. If you're worried about getting on her back then my advise is don't - get an experienced trainer to put some good hours into her. So much easier to train a horse from scratch then it is to fix a horse with nasty habits.


This is something I feel I may need to reach out to the previous owner again about, to grab more details on exactly how much training shes done with her in regards to how many days a week. But then again Im not sure if I can rely on her because when I got her, and the very first time I did groundwork with her and saw that she wasnt even desentized with the stick and string yet (or perhaps she was, just not properly) around her body and legs, was a complete shocker to me and my trainer. 

It took us almost 15mins to desentize her of the string wrapped around her body and legs and this is something that should have been done right at the beginning when broken in. When we all saw this, we all knew this was a serious hole in her training and was a red flag. Poor girl thought the trainer was trying to kill her when she wrapped the string around her legs. Thankfully 15mins later, she was all good and desentized of the string. Honestly though, Im still baffled just how this horse has been broken in and has done light jumping and trails (rivers, bridges) and obstacles, but yet wasnt desentized with the carrot stick. I just dont get it.



The previous owner broke her in and trained her for the entire time she had her (2 years). In winters she was worked once a week and rest of the year she was worked 1-3 times a week.

Im comfortable getting on a green horses back for basic walk on, woah, stand, but not a trot or canter just yet. I will most definitely need a refresher or two of my own on one of the lesson horses there (just as a precautionary measure) as I havent ridden myself since March of this year. Thankfully Im a quick learner so 1-2 refreshers on a lesson horse and ill be good again.

She leads well but she has her days where she sees grass and still tries to get ahead of me, then I have to immediately back her up, get her to stand and not to move until I say "walk on". Ever since moving to the new barn last Friday shes been doing this everyday Im leading her and its driving me bonkers. Maybe its just the new environment and her getting settled in but each time Ive been leading her at the new place, she will constantly try to get ahead of me and lead me because she sees other horses and she wants to scoot over to them to see whats up and call out to them.

She is very good listening and responding to ques - walk on, woah, trot, etc but stand is the one she struggles with the most. This is where I feel is the biggest hole in her groundwork, standing, shes just not patient. On some days I can get her to stand pretty easy with not a whole lot of extra effort on my part. But other days, I have to go through the trenches just to get her to stand. Again, trainers said that she is young and I cant be getting discouraged that her standing and having patience at the age of 4 is a hole for her.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

You absolutely need to ride your mare... the longer you put it off, the more anxiety you'll build about it. Around here, when we start colts, we are almost always on their backs by the end of the first session. You don't get a horse broke, by skirting around things... you've just got to get to your business and help the horse understand and accept what you want from him. You've got to quit making excuses for your horse. If you want a broke horse, you have to treat your horse like it's broke. For example -- you want to be able to open gates from on your horse, but they are young and haven't learned that yet. Instead of making excuses and getting off to open the gate, take the time to just go ahead and teach your horse. Resolve that you are going to get that gate open from his back and do it. Then the next day it'll be a little easier, and same the day after, until you have a horse you can open gates on. I'll say it again - If you want your horse to be broke, you've got to treat them like a broke horse. If you baby them and make excuses for them, nothing will ever improve 

I did not realize you hadn't ridden her, from reading your other threads. I suspect many of the issues you have with her on the ground and on the longe line will resolve themselves, once you get to riding her. Most horses are much happier with a job and will get bored very easily, doing the same stuff all the time. All the little nitpicking stuff can often read as just that -- you picking on them. 
I try to work on improving lots of different things, a little bit each day, instead of focusing on trying to get one thing perfect. While I'm leading them from their pen, I might work on getting them to trot next to me. When I get a couple steps, great we move on. Maybe I'll decide to make them let me get on from the fence this day, so we do that. Then maybe I'll warm them up around the arena, then go work a cow for a little bit, then go down the trail. You and your horse will likely get a lot less frustrated if you branch out and try new things with her. And remember, you're much better off looking for tiny improvements each day. Those will add up over time. If you try to hard for drastic improvements, you're likely to push the horse and end up in a fight that sets you back a bunch.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

IMHO, it depends entirely on you and is something that you should decide with your trainer.

What is the worst under saddle behavior you can expect her to do? Does she have a history of doing something really bad when ridden like bucking, bolting, rearing, etc?

If she's not known for doing something that will get you hurt, then I'd get on and ride her.

I often work a bit backwards and cattywompus in my training. It is a nonexistent thing for me to get on a horse only after their groundwork is spotless. 

Heck, when I was a teenager and even into my early twenties (and I don't recommend anyone do this LOL), I often rode horses that barely knew how to lead. None of them ever hurt me. The worst I ever got hurt was on a mare that had been groundworked to death.

Having done that for years and years, I've discovered that not only will groundwork carry over into saddle work.....but saddle work will also carry over to groundwork. If you do one of them correctly, the other will improve.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

enh817 said:


> I suspect many of the issues you have with her on the ground and on the longe line will resolve themselves, once you get to riding her.


This is what a couple people have told me as well. Once I start riding her, things will start to come together more and more dots will connect.



> Most horses are much happier with a job and will get bored very easily, doing the same stuff all the time.


And this is why I havent been lunging her for the past week, I feel like I shouldnt be doing it anymore for the next while because Ive done so much of it. Shes so used to it by now that each time when I bring her into (not just the arena) but an isolated area with her on a lead, she will automatically just start walking around me. I dont even have to give her the que anymore. I dont want to lose her mind and definitely dont want to make her sour towards me.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Sorry for the double post, but ya'll posted while I was writing mine.

One little trick I've found for a horse that doesn't like to stand still...... Don't ask for long stretches of stillness. Maybe expect 5-10 seconds at first before you ask her to move off again. If she moves off before you ask for it, then I would take one rein and push her hard into little tiny circles and keep her going until she's huffing and puffing. Make sure she stays soft on your hand (if she starts laying on you, give her a little bump with the bit to remind her to back off) and if you start to get dizzy before you feel like she's okay to stop, alternate reins and spin her the other way for a bit.

Then, let her straighten out and immediately ask her to stand again. Wait a few seconds and if she doesn't move her feet, either step off right that moment or ask her to walk on. Make a couple trips around the arena or walk until she's relaxed and do it again. Always make sure you stop her in a different spot of the arena too so that she doesn't start to get sour to one spot.

This same philosophy will work when you are on the ground. If she decides to lead you instead of the other way around, make her hit a long trot in circles around you, make her change direction, make her back up and then circle again, make her sidepass in a circle away from you. Anything to get her focused back on you and not thinking about the other horses. After a session of correction, walk off like nothing happened and ask for her to walk where you want her. If she gets to ignoring you again, put her to work again.

That's how you make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard :wink:.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

smrobs said:


> IMHO, it depends entirely on you and is something that you should decide with your trainer.
> 
> What is the worst under saddle behavior you can expect her to do? Does she have a history of doing something really bad when ridden like bucking, bolting, rearing, etc?
> 
> ...


Ive only ridden her once and that was bareback for about 10mins when I very first went to go see her before buying. She was very good and calm and relaxed and responded well to my ques.



smrobs said:


> Sorry for the double post, but ya'll posted while I was writing mine.
> 
> One little trick I've found for a horse that doesn't like to stand still...... Don't ask for long stretches of stillness. Maybe expect 5-10 seconds at first before you ask her to move off again. If she moves off before you ask for it, then I would take one rein and push her hard into little tiny circles and keep her going until she's huffing and puffing. Make sure she stays soft on your hand (if she starts laying on you, give her a little bump with the bit to remind her to back off) and if you start to get dizzy before you feel like she's okay to stop, alternate reins and spin her the other way for a bit.
> 
> ...


Getting her to stand tied has been a massive struggle since I got her. Ive tried just about everything over the past 3 months. Nothing works. Ive said it before and I will say it again, she either has a severe phobia of being tied or she had a bad experience when she was young when she was tied.

Maybe its just me, but Ive always been told that a horse that never stands tied for you means they dont respect you. In other words any horse who respects you will always stand tied for you.

But when I ran this by a trainer and another person, they said "not nessecarily true!" Is there any validness to this? That whether or not a horse stands tied is a sign of whether or not they respect you?


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

Ground work is important but it's not to replace riding. I would have been riding the horse in addition to ground work within a week of getting her.

I don't think standing tied is a sign of respect. Horses show respect by moving out of your space when cued and staying out in general. Beyond that it's training. 

And I wouldn't be so worried about not being desensitised to a stick and string, I don't use one, a lot of people don't use them. Many trainers train without it so it's not going to be something every horse knows.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

> Getting her to stand tied has been a massive struggle since I got her. Ive tried just about everything over the past 3 months. Nothing works. Ive said it before and I will say it again, she either has a severe phobia of being tied or she had a bad experience when she was young when she was tied.


That is entirely possible. Unfortunately, there are many people who break young horses to tie by strapping a halter on them and tying them to something solid and letting them fight it out. No prep work, no introduction to pressure, no nothing. 

Does she actually sit back on the rope or is it more that she just won't stand still and is pacing around looking for other horses?



> Maybe its just me, but Ive always been told that a horse that never stands tied for you means they dont respect you. In other words any horse who respects you will always stand tied for you.
> 
> But when I ran this by a trainer and another person, they said "not nessecarily true!" Is there any validness to this? That whether or not a horse stands tied is a sign of whether or not they respect you?


Haha, that's the first I've ever heard of anything like that. To me, whether a horse will stand tied or not speaks only of their temperament and their initial training. No matter how much they respect you, if they are an unconfident or nervous horse, then they will be anxious when tied. It's just a fact of life . No matter how much they respect you, if they were allowed to pull back and get free when they were young, they will periodically (or frequently) sit back and fight until something breaks.


I might be able to help you more if you can tell me what exactly she does when tied. 
Does she pace around with her head up looking for other horses? 
Does she move her ears constantly and have her eyes popped out and spook at random stuff? 
Does she stand okay until she sees something "interesting" and then sit back/fight to get loose? 
Does she appear mostly calm but just refuses to stand still and swings her butt back and forth or paws a hole in the ground?


And I'll go ahead and tell you now, as soon as I hit "post", I'm going to bed. It's a couple hours past my bedtime and I have to work tomorrow . I'll get back to you as soon as I can though.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> Getting her to stand tied has been a massive struggle since I got her. Ive tried just about everything over the past 3 months. Nothing works. Ive said it before and I will say it again, she either has a severe phobia of being tied or she had a bad experience when she was young when she was tied.
> 
> Maybe its just me, but Ive always been told that a horse that never stands tied for you means they dont respect you. In other words any horse who respects you will always stand tied for you.
> 
> But when I ran this by a trainer and another person, they said "not nessecarily true!" Is there any validness to this? That whether or not a horse stands tied is a sign of whether or not they respect you?


Does she do anything like pull back? Or try to climb the fence she's tied to? Or is it just that she dances around and doesn't stand still? 
If it's the latter, I'm going to bet she's just bored. I bet if you start riding her and she has to start actually working for a living, she'll quickly realize that being tied is a nice break from work and won't feel the need to move around so much. Or, it might just be who she is. We have a horse here in training, who is an awesome little dude, down for anything, easy to get along with, very trainable, etc etc. But he is just of the opinion that standing around on the fence is BS. We've tried a number of things, that would work with most horses -- making him live and get fed tied to the fence all day every day, tying one leg up so that it becomes a lot of effort to move around, etc. It'll work for a day or two, he'll stand quiet, but before long he's back to dancing around. We've just decided that it's who he is, and since he's not hurting himself or others and he'll stand still when you're working around him saddling him or whatever, we're just going to leave it alone. We're just trying to focus on keeping his mind busy, riding him often and giving him jobs to do. 

Don't stress so much about every little thing. Aside from major safety concerns, just try to get along with your horse and enjoy her. Take the time to teach her how you'd like her to behave, don't just expect her to know. Remember, horses only know what we teach them and what we allow them to learn. They don't often act in ways we don't like because they are trying to be bad, it's because they've learned that it worked for them in the past. The more times something has worked for them in the past, the more ingrained that behavior is. You can't undo that overnight, all you can do is try to change their habits over time, by creating new ones.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I should also mention that from speaking with the previous owner about a month ago, she was really attached to her owner when she had her. But she did need reminders every now and then because she would check in every now and then to see if the rules still apply.

She said that she's taken a lot longer to grow up than the usual average horse because when she was born, her original breeder just tossed her out in the field with her herd. She didnt work with her, she didnt spend time with her, she didnt do any ground work with her. She didnt teach her how to respect people. And because of her not being handled, lead, haltered very often by the owner, she pretty much just spent her first two years of her life in the field playing with her friends.

So because of her lack of interaction around humans for her first couple years, that would explain why shes taken a lot longer to grow up and have respect for humans. 

When I got her, for the first 3 weeks she would turn her butt to me every day, sometimes every time I entered her paddock. She turned her butt to my trainers, the BO, and just about anyone who would come up to her. She was a brat. She had no respect for anyone. 

I soon started keeping a lunge whip at her paddock so each time I went inside I would have the whip in one hand, ready to whip her on the hind just as she turns her butt to me. She didnt like it and she knew I stepped it up. So the next day, literally first minute of seeing her, she would turn her butt into me again but this time as Im about to whip her, she gallops off. See? Shes smart and she was literally anticiapting each and every day how she can adjust from the punishment I gave.

Roundpenning her in a circular paddock was what got rid of this bad act of hers. The first time I did this was when she changed. I had to do it a few times throughout a few weeks but this really smartened her up. She hasnt done it to me in almost 2 months now. Not saying she wont ever do it again, Im always ready for her to do it again, but at least she has more respect for humans today than she did 3 months ago.

Ive only had her for 3 months and our partnership is still a working progress and I feel I dont have her respect down 100%, but she has made me work like a dog to earn her respect. You cant imagine what Ive been through over the past (2 months especially) working with my past two coaches on getting her to respect not just me but any human. She was so persistant on being the leader (not just with me but with even the trainers) that it took a helluva lot of effort to get her to submit and accept her role as the follower. She was a handful and still is at times because she needs reminders.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

subbing


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Saskia said:


> Ground work is important but it's not to replace riding. I would have been riding the horse in addition to ground work within a week of getting her.
> 
> I don't think standing tied is a sign of respect. Horses show respect by moving out of your space when cued and staying out in general. Beyond that it's training.
> 
> And I wouldn't be so worried about not being desensitised to a stick and string, I don't use one, a lot of people don't use them. Many trainers train without it so it's not going to be something every horse knows.


Well the trainer I was using at the time immediately flat out said that a carrot stick shouldnt be seen as foreign material to any broke horse and that if I was to ride her...if she was to get caught up in wire, I would be dead. If she was to get caught up in wire in the field on her own, she would literally kill herself from panicking.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

smrobs said:


> That is entirely possible. Unfortunately, there are many people who break young horses to tie by strapping a halter on them and tying them to something solid and letting them fight it out. No prep work, no introduction to pressure, no nothing.
> 
> Does she actually sit back on the rope or is it more that she just won't stand still and is pacing around looking for other horses?


She is constantly pacing around left to right, right to left looking for other horses, other things around her, checking over her shoulder for any threats and scouring over foreign objects.



> Does she pace around with her head up looking for other horses?


She paces around but for all the reasons I stated above.



> Does she move her ears constantly and have her eyes popped out and spook at random stuff?


When shes nervous yes. She does get spooked easily.



> Does she stand okay until she sees something "interesting" and then sit back/fight to get loose?


She never sits back or fights to get loose. Basically the less happening around her, the tougher time she will have standing tied. With other stuff happening she easily gets distracted and stands tied like an angel.

Example - another horse getting their hoofs trimmed. She stands and watches and is entertained. Doesnt move a step the whole time watching.

I do also believe that the fact she has a short attention span plays a factor. I should note that the previous owner has only been able to ground tie her for 15mins tops before she loses her focus and needs to move onto somethign else.



> Does she appear mostly calm but just refuses to stand still and swings her butt back and forth or paws a hole in the ground?


Yes. In the old barn, once she got comfortable she was always calm inside. The more i brought her inside the barn and tied her, the more calm she became. It was quite nice because over time, I got to a point where she wasnt shifting nearly as much as before so it made my grooming 1000x easier.

However, the new barn she is nervous as hell and just doesnt like it because of how narrow and dark it is. It also makes me a bit queezy knowing she can easily wack her back legs or hind against the stall doors if not careful. Really wish there was another foot of space but oh well. Its just one of the sacrifices I have to make.

But right now, I pretty much cant do a single thing with her in the new barn cause she is always going from right to left and back and fourth.

honestly, Im starting to regret how small this new barn is.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

my horses never see a carrot stick-heck, I don't even know what that NH gimmick looks like!
Yes, horses should learn some leg restraint, so that they don't panic if caught in a fence,but I hardly see how a carrot stick is supposed to do that
Hobble training, or picketing a horse by a leg can teach that acceptance, not just a string or flag touching them-that is just some de sensitizing tool, but certainly won't teach a horse not to fight, if his leg gets truly caught in something like a fence
Where do you find these trainers?
Having a horse accept standing tied, has nothing to do with respect. It has everything to do with giving to pressure 100%, and actually having time spent tied solid
Forget attention span excuse. She is old enough to understand boundaries.
Again, ground tying has nothing to do with attention span, but rather with expectations, but I would forget the ground tying, until she is good about tying solid-standing there quiet and alone, and relaxed, waiting patiently


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> I should also mention that from speaking with the previous owner about a month ago, she was really attached to her owner when she had her. But she did need reminders every now and then because she would check in every now and then to see if the rules still apply.
> 
> She said that she's taken a lot longer to grow up than the usual average horse because when she was born, her original breeder just tossed her out in the field with her herd. She didnt work with her, she didnt spend time with her, she didnt do any ground work with her. She didnt teach her how to respect people. And because of her not being handled, lead, haltered very often by the owner, she pretty much just spent her first two years of her life in the field playing with her friends.
> 
> ...



Actually, your logic is completely backwards. Speaking from experience seeing hundreds of horses come in and out of training here, the easiest ones to work with are the colts that no one has messed with yet. Given the choice, I'll always take one that had never seen a human before, over one that has been handled. It's the people who teach a horse not to respect them. The most dangerous and least respectful horses to deal with are the ones people have 'imprinted' or handled a bunch when young. Being turned out with other horses is absolutely the best thing a person can do with a young horse, before it begins training. Other horses are the best teachers of respect... after all they speak horse better than any of us can presume to speak it. 

It is painfully obvious when we get a colt in to start that someone has already tried to mess with... even when they swear they haven't. I can usually tell you exactly what has been done to the horse to cause most of the issues we see. Horses are innately very simple and easy to communicate with, if you understand their language. It's when they get all dull and muddle up by people messing with them, without truly understanding horse training, that many issues arise. Sure, an experienced hand messing with a foal, can teach that horse some beneficial things before he's started, but the thing is - it's very rarely the experienced trainer messing with babies, it's the less experienced owner who thinks it's it's necessary. Any experienced horse trainer knows that a horse with a fresh, untouched mind is very straightforward, and can be taught respect (among many other things) in a matter of minutes. I can teach a colt, that hasn't been touched before, everything he needs to know for me to safely ride him, on day 1. I'd also go as far as to say I can have him more respectful, more gentle, more halter broke, in that time, then most people's older horses that have been broke for ages. But it takes a lifetime of commitment to studying horse training to learn the nuances that allow you to be very successful. It's not a DIY project that you can just look up instructions for online. There's a reason why there are thousands of professional horse trainers out there making a living, because it is not something that everyone can do easily (really not something that most people can do very well) and there's no substitute for years and yeas of well educated experience.


I really wish you were close by and could bring your horse over here. I could show you so much in just a short period of time that would help you tremendously. I'm sorry that you seem to keep coming in contact with "trainers" that really have no business calling themselves that. 

I'm going to say, again, really all that we can say to you, without being there to actually show you... Please stop babying your horse and making excuses for her. I'm sorry, but she's not 'slow to mature' or 'too smart' or any of that nonsense. She's just a horse, looking for release, just like any other horse. Please stop over complicating things and worrying about every little thing.

Just tie the horse up and leave her alone... it really sounds like you're the one with all the anxieties, not the horse. When working with horses, you need to learn to prioritize what is the most important problem and worry about fixing that first. To me, it seems like you have two big issues - 1. you have been putting off riding your horse, either out of fear or misinformation, I don't know. But what good is your horse to you if all you ever do is lead it around and worry about tying it up? We have a policy here that every horse must work for its keep. You need to ride your horse. Horses need exercise and mental stimulation. You are only compounding all your other problems by not getting on her. 2. you keep trying to make excuses for your horse. Your horse will only live up to expectations that you set for her. If you decide that she can't do this, or she can't do that, etc etc, then no, it's not going to happen. You have to say - hey horse, i know you think this is scary, or hard, or not your idea of a good time, but I call the shots here and I want you to do this, so you're just going to have to learn. 
If I were your trainer, those would be the things we'd be working on, before getting stressed about the horse dancing around a little when tied.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If you sent a horse to me to be started and at the end of three months, 12 weeks, and I said she still hadn't been sat on then you would not be to pleased. At least, I wouldn't be if I was an owner.

I agree with others that you are the one wanting to 'baby' your horse. She will not gain anything from this. 

Horses that have never been handled are a lot easier then those that have been spoiled by poor directional handling. 

When it comes to Roding young horses I work differently to most in that first time of Roding them I never work them in an arena or round pen, I ride them straight out on the roads and tracks which they have been long reined prior to Roding them. I do not walk them I trot and canter them straight off. Forward movement is my aim and I allow them a few days of hacking out and about before trying to refine any movement. 

On more than one occasion I have had horses come to me that the owners have started themselves and months on they cannot canter the horse because it has never been cantered with a rider on and when they try the horse has bucked. 

You need to toughen yourself up and get on with things and her.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Also, I want to add a note about 'respect' between horse and human. A horse that hasn't been messed with, innately has respect for humans, because they are prey and we are predator. They have so much respect that naturally they are afraid of us, because they fear we might kill them. The first day with a colt that hasn't been messed with, is more about teaching them not to fear us and showing them that life is peachy, if they accept the leadership of humans. Once that happens, it's really all about the pressure and release. My horse doesn't stay out of my space because she 'respects' me, she stays out of my space because she's learned that if she doesn't she gets pressure put on her that doesn't go away until she moves out of my space. My horse doesn't refrain from bucking me off because she respects me, it's because she has learned that when she bucks she gets all kinds of pressure laid on her and it goes away when she stops. We developed an understanding beginning on day one, that the only option she has is to accept my pressure and give me some sort of response. Over time I train those responses. It's as simple as that. Some days yes, she fights back and thinks maybe she doesn't have to accept me. After years of people doing god knows what to her and her bucking them off, it's to be expected, but I just remind her that I will keep coming with increasing pressure until she submits and then all is good again. 
Horses don't have emotions like people do, horses don't have reasoning capabilities, horses don't think like humans. Horses only think about what brings them pressure and what gets them release. You have to learn how to think like a horse or you're going to continue to have problems.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Something I have learnt over the last 9 months of having a horse is confidence and respect comes from just doing what you're afraid to do. I was so scared of cantering my TB as I have had bad experiences but I just did it and got it over with and now I am not worried about it.

I know loads of people who say they aren't confident enough to ride their horses and it's not because the horse is poorly trained it's because they won't do the hours in the saddle.

If you don't have faith in your horse they won't have any in you.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I like Rains post the only thing I would add is that if you don't have faith in your horse it will not have faith in you - this is true and to achieve it you need faith in yourself. 

It all boils down to facing your fear.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> I like Rains post the only thing I would add is that if you don't have faith in your horse it will not have faith in you - this is true and to achieve it you need faith in yourself.
> 
> It all boils down to facing your fear.


Aw thanks lol


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Your new trainer sounds like she knows what she is doing. Yes you need to ride now. You will discover and sort out the 'holes' as you discover them. Don't even worry about cantering yet, you will get to that when you and your trainer feel you are ready.

You can do groundwork forever to get your horse balanced and smooth. But when you get on you change that balance and the horse still has to adapt. So do it sooner rather than later. Sounds like plain nerves on your part, they will go when you face your fear 

As for the standing still, smrobs has covered that beautifully, can't improve on it.

Since you're so nervous make sure trainer is with you at least the first couple of times.

Relax, pay attention to trainer, enjoy


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

"Honestly though, Im still baffled just how this horse has been broken in and has done light jumping and trails (rivers, bridges) and obstacles, but yet wasnt desentized with the carrot stick. I just don't get it."

It's simple. Someone wanted to ride, so they did & the horse was just fine.
I agree with everyone else, stop looking for perfection & taking little things your horse does personally.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm assuming a carrot stick is some
kind of flag? Or whip/stick with something on the end? I've heard the term on and off but never actually seen one or met anyone that has used one.. I'm guessing it has the same application as a flag- which in my case is an old dressage whip with a bit of cloth and plastic bag attached lol.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I've also got a piece of poly pipe with a glove on the end stuffed with plastic bags to fill it out. Used for touching legs when my mare/s wanted to kick my head in. The farrier called it my 'handy helper' and the name stuck lol.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

OoLaurenoO said:


> I'm assuming a carrot stick is some
> kind of flag? Or whip/stick with something on the end? I've heard the term on and off but never actually seen one or met anyone that has used one.. I'm guessing it has the same application as a flag- which in my case is an old dressage whip with a bit of cloth and plastic bag attached lol.


yes..............


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Thanks for the advice.

I have decided that my Sat lesson is going to be me riding her for 15mins, but also will lunge her for maybe 20mins since the new trainer said she needs to see what she can do, and how she is on a line. IMO all trainers should always see first hand with their own eyes how any horse they work with is on a line.

Sound reasonable? 

I dont have a saddle, yet. But hoping to get a few to try on her in the next week or so. The trainer says in the meantime I can always just use one of their 15 saddles in their tach room (used by their lesson horses). Good or bad idea?

I want a saddle that will fit her perfect. I dont want to just toss on a bunch of saddles and pick and use the one that fits her the best of them all, but doesnt nessecarily mean it fits her without any discomfort. I told my trainer this, this is why Ive been spending the past couple weeks looking at my saddle options, because I want a saddle that will fit her perfect. Ive been very cautious about it as I dont want her to get lame again from her previous owner using a saddle that was over time too tight (from her having out grown it).

Aside from that, from now until Sat I think it would be best if i do not do any groundwork or lunging with her. I will work on her standing tied quietly. Even though it pans me to see her go another few days without any excersize, do you think this is a good idea?

How much of a break from groundwork do you think I should give her? I did a quick 30min session with her last night (before I made this post) and that was the first time since last Thurs, so she had a 4 day break. I didnt trot or canter her on a full line, I just did basic groundwork on a 14ft line and practiced what we worked on last Wed and thurs. We had to do it outside in a grassy shadey area and found it wasnt very effective cause she was too distracted by her surroundings and I had to put a lot more effort into getting and keeping her attention than what I would have liked.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

If you're unsure why not have the trainer ride her first?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

enh has covered my thoughts very well, and in good depth.
Totally agree, having my son start outside horses while going to university, that the worst colts to start were ones that had been spoiled by incorrect handling.
Trainers dread the proverbial 'barnyard pet', as all bad habits have to be addressed, before any real training can start
My son put 30 days on most of these colts, and by the end of that month, they were going at all gaits, ridden in the open, had beginning of softness in the face and basic leg yield exercises, plus shoulder control.
This horse has been ridden by the past owner. perhaps not the best start, but she is also not a green unridden colt
You yourself, apparently rode her, before you bought her
I think your best investment, would be to use a trainer to put time on your horse, plus give you lessons, after a month or so, on your horse
It does sound that you bought a horse that might be too green, for your level of experience, which is neither good for you or the horse


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## 3rdTimestheCharm (Jan 18, 2015)

Hi, I think your plan for the Saturday lesson sounds good. Personally, I would do a bit of groundwork and/or lunging in the days leading up to the lesson just because it sounds like that's the routine for her. Maybe just lunge tomorrow and light groundwork on Friday? See what others say though as that's just what I would do =)

I also wanted to add that finding a perfect fitting saddle is possible, but it really depends on your horse's conformation. My gelding has conformational flaws with his shoulders (one is much bigger than the other. I believe he had a past injury or maybe was just born like that, but I'll probably never know for sure.) and it took me about 3 months to find a saddle that fit gelding decently. I had the chiropractor, farrier, barn owner, etc. and everyone agreed that that saddle was the best it was going to get with him.

Sorry to be kind of a downer on that lol, but I just wanted to share an experience. On the the plus side, he's the only horse I've ever had that much trouble fitting! =)

Good luck with her! =) It sounds like you have a good trainer.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

natisha said:


> If you're unsure why not have the trainer ride her first?


Im not unsure. Im pretty confident riding her safely. Im just a bit uneasy about riding a horse that doesnt fully respect me yet. Better than before but not 100%.


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## liltuktuk (Dec 16, 2011)

Do you do groundwork with her everyday normally? My horses would go batty if I did that. Give the poor horse a break and do something different. Take her for a walk down a trail or down a road. Teach her to walk over obstacles.

I agree with others that your anxieties are probably wearing off on your horse. She doesn't need to be babied, she doesn't need to be nit-picked, she needs a leader to show her what's right and what's wrong.

My mare used to be spooky and anxious, sometimes still is. Being on turnout 24/7 has helped. I also learned that if I want her to do something, we just do it. I don't baby her past scarey objects anymore, I don't get off of her if she gets nervous about something, we just keep on moving. She can be impatient when tied, especially if she can't see her buddies. She'll paw and dance around. As long as she's not a danger to herself or others, I just let her do it and keep doing my thing. She wants to be an idiot and use more energy then necessary, fine. She figures it out pretty quick. I couldn't even tell you the last time I've done groundwork with her...

My coming 3 year old, I mess around with him once or twice a week. He knows how to give to pressure, so I don't drill it into his brain anymore. If he gets sticky he gets a quick refresher and we move on. Just the other day I free lunged him for the first time as we finally have an arena set up. Let him loose and pointed with my finger in the direction I wanted him to go and he took off. I don't remember ever teaching him that when I worked him on the line, probably was doing it without realizing it. Stepped in front of his shoulder and told him woah, he slammed on the brakes and turned and faced me. Did that a few more times in each direction and stopped, he gets it, no reason to drill it. That was maybe 10-15 minutes of work.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is, if you want her to ride, get on a ride. If you're not comfortable, have someone else do it. All the groundwork in the world isn't going to make her perfect under saddle, its a whole different ball game. She's a horse, she knows her place, she's just got your number. She doesn't have to do everything perfect 24/7. She's going to test you, just roll with it don't take it personally. My mare still tests me even though she knows I'll whoop her behind and don't put up with stupid shenanigans. I correct her, we move on, everyone is happy.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> I have decided that my Sat lesson is going to be me riding her for 15mins, but also will lunge her for maybe 20mins since the new trainer said she needs to see what she can do, and how she is on a line. IMO all trainers should always see first hand with their own eyes how any horse they work with is on a line.
> 
> ...


Yes, use one of your trainer's saddle.
Many entry level people get obsessed with custom fitting a saddle, perhaps because they only ride one horse.
Sure, a saddle should fit, but a well made saddle, built for a general type of horse, will fit many horses. Afterall, I trained horses we raised, from 4 to 6 three year olds, using the same saddle, year after year, and still use that as my everyday saddle on the horses I am currently riding.
Do you think trainers get a custom fitted saddle for every horse that comes into training?
A custom fitted saddle, is also only a blink in time, unless that horse stays in the same condition and has the same weight, year round, and year after year
Have your trainer pick the saddle to be used

Lunging- you might find this strange, but when I first started working horses (reining and working cowhorse), I taught none of my horses to lunge. Not saying lunging can't be useful tool, but it is also way over used, esp on a broke horse. Even now, I never bother lunging a horse , after they are riding well, as you can get much more done riding (correctly)
Nothing wrong with your trainer lunging a horse first, that she is not familiar with, but this horse is broke, and I know many trainers that would just get on and ride, to find out what the horse really knows


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> enh has covered my thoughts very well, and in good depth.
> Totally agree, having my son start outside horses while going to university, that the worst colts to start were ones that had been spoiled by incorrect handling.
> Trainers dread the proverbial 'barnyard pet', as all bad habits have to be addressed, before any real training can start
> My son put 30 days on most of these colts, and by the end of that month, they were going at all gaits, ridden in the open, had beginning of softness in the face and basic leg yield exercises, plus shoulder control.
> ...


I do plan on getting the trainer to put some time on her but I feel I need to at least get on her a couple times ASAP. Like everyone has said, I cant be delaying this any longer. Once I ride her Sat, I should feel a lot better and a huge weight off my shoulders has just come off. And my horse should feel better after getting used to having weight on her back again.

For stuff like trotting and cantering, I will initially start off again on a lesson horse (as I could use a refresher) before on my own.

But basic walk on, woah, stands and circles around the arena, I am confident I can just get on her and quickly get back in the groove from March. I have full confidence with the support of my trainer there, it will go smooth. I have been sitting in on quite a few of her lessons and she is a good teacher.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

liltuktuk said:


> Do you do groundwork with her everyday normally? My horses would go batty if I did that. Give the poor horse a break and do something different. Take her for a walk down a trail or down a road. Teach her to walk over obstacles.
> 
> I agree with others that your anxieties are probably wearing off on your horse. She doesn't need to be babied, she doesn't need to be nit-picked, she needs a leader to show her what's right and what's wrong.
> 
> ...


No Ive never done ground work with her everyday, the most has been 4 days a week, and that was only for two weeks, otherwise it was 3 days. I usually do two days on, two days off or one day on, one day off etc. 

Over the past month and a bit, Ive only been doing ground work with her 2-3 days a week. In the past three weeks, we've only done it 4 times. Ive given her a good break from it.

When I dont do groundwork with her, I usually take her for walks (works on our leading), introduce her to obstacles in the arena and have us go over them and of course Ive been working on for awhile, her standing tied.

The previous coach I was using insisted I did groundwork with her 4-5 days a week, an hour each time. But thats too much.

I have confidence in being able to ride her safety and well (meaning direct and clear ques given to her). 

Im just a bit discouraged I guess you say that I still have to correct her as often as I do. 9/10 times its usually from her getting in my space. Basic stuff like this IMO, shouldnt even be an issue anymore 3 months into horse ownership.

When I do groundwork with her, I have to put considerable pressure on her. Because too often, she will not want to work and will try to get out of working. Whether its her yawning or pawing or looking around distracting herself. She will try to get out of it a lot of times so I have to put pressure on her and then I get her constant attention and she is fine then.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

How do you lunge her?
Since she has been ridden, she obviously accepts a saddle and bridle, thus she should move while being lunged, as you would expect her to move under saddle.
That means bitted up (providing she knows how to give to a bit, and if not, she should have been bitted up gradually, while,being lunged )
Lunging is not mindless exercise time, to try and wear down a horse before riding
Thus, if you expect to have her attention while riding, allowing her to be distracted by surroundings, is not the way to go. Bit her up, an drive her with the lunge whip, as needed, to make her track up, make her go at the gaits asked for, while keeping frame and topline (assuming she is ready for this, and if not, teach her )
I could explain how to bit a horse up gradually, while lunging, but you do have a trainer
I also never used a carrot stick in all the years I started horses. Yes, you de sensitize them to various parts of their body being touched, but you can use a saddle pad for that, even the lunge whip, a slicker, etc In other words, a 'carrot stick' itself is not a required tool!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

After reading all of your various threads, I think you are projecting your fear/nervousness onto your horse. I think if you are this uncertain about your every move with her, you need to take some lessons on another horse and get your "sea legs" back and then get on your horse and start riding. You're waaaaay over analyzing and emotionalizing (is that even a word? well, anyhow, it is now) all this stuff. 

I have a mare, and I've had her since she was 6 mos old just after weaning, and she came off the trailer leading and tying. Not great, but she did it. We did some ground work and I use the Parelli games with my youngsters to teach them all kinds of things so that by the time they're ready to be ridden, they've got a pretty good idea what's going on. She knows what a carrot stick is and you can do anything you want to her legs and feet, she's good with it all. 

She's now 10 years old and she will STILL dig a hole to China when I tie her up if she's not kept busy and entertained. She respects me totally and not a single day goes by that she doesn't think of a way to test my leadership, sometimes she's subtle about it and others she's right up front. It's all about being an alpha, opinionated mare. Your mare is only 4, she is still figuring out where she's at in your relationship and who's going to be in charge. My mare does great ground work. But it's not perfect, it's never going to be perfect and I don't care. She's AWESOME under saddle, she's my go to horse and one of the very few on my place that doesn't have a price tag. She is not and never will be for sale, that's how much I think of her. And as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, she's going to test me again. It's her nature. I can do 2 things, I can fret about how and when she's going to test me again or I can go along, knowing it will happen and deal with it when it does and move on. The only one that will make progress is the 2nd option, the first will freeze us in place.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Im not unsure. Im pretty confident riding her safely. Im just a bit uneasy about riding a horse that doesnt fully respect me yet. Better than before but not 100%.


She may surprise you & be quite happy to be ridden.
I have one who was so irritated from ground work done before I got her that all she did was resist. Once I got her straightened out I quit even lunging her & she is much happier. I have no worries just getting on & riding. But I'm old school-once they know whoa, W,T,C from the ground I teach the rest from their back.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

natisha said:


> "Honestly though, Im still baffled just how this horse has been broken in and has done light jumping and trails (rivers, bridges) and obstacles, but yet wasnt desentized with the carrot stick. I just don't get it."
> 
> It's simple. Someone wanted to ride, so they did & the horse was just fine.
> I agree with everyone else, stop looking for perfection & taking little things your horse does personally.


I can understand wanting to do things correctly with a new and green horse but what is "correct" ? I have ridden many well broke horses that never saw a round pen or had ever been lunged and they were just fine. (I have started a few myself with minimal groundwork) I am not saying that ground work doesn't have an important place, but only to a point and then work under saddle needs to take over.

I do not expect perfection although I do strive for it. The best trained horses can occasionally give you an imperfect ride so it shouldn't be expected from a young or green horse. Improvement is something you should expect even if it is three steps forward and two backward some days. It is still improvement.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> How do you lunge her?
> Since she has been ridden, she obviously accepts a saddle and bridle, thus she should move while being lunged, as you would expect her to move under saddle.
> That means bitted up (providing she knows how to give to a bit, and if not, she should have been bitted up gradually, while,being lunged )
> Lunging is not mindless exercise time, to try and wear down a horse before riding
> ...


I always use a carrot stick when lunging her, sometimes my flag. Default is my carrot stick and flag when I need to put more pressure on and she responds with more urgency and a faster departure when I use the flag (past trainer said it would be cause of the sound the flag makes).

I also use the carrot stick to steer her hind away from me when I need to. 

When I get her going, I just point in the direction I want her to go in and she goes. Once she goes, I put my arm down to release pressure. I start off with a walk for a couple circles then will say "trot" (in a normal tone of voice) and cluck a couple times when I want her to trot. If she doesnt go, I will use the carrot stick, start off with a light swing of the string onto the ground. If she doesnt get going, I throw the whip down again but harder and say trot again but in a much more stern voice. But its rare I have to do this, she almost always responds with the littliest pressure from the whip.

I can get her going easily with little pressure but I will have to constantly throw down the whip to keep her going cause if I dont, she will always try to stop on her own and end the session herself. I always try to anticipate when shes going to do this so I can put pressure on her just as shes about to do it.

When I get her from a trot to walk, I just say walk and she walks. If she doesnt respond then I will lightly wiggle the lead and she will respond to it 10 out of 10 times.

When I get her to stop and turn facing me, I first will just tilt my upper body 45 degrees to look at her butt while keeping my feet still. If she doesnt respond, I then put some urgency into it by taking 3 or 4 quick but escalating steps while continuing to look at her butt. 9/10 times she will have stopped and turned towards me by now. But occasionally she wont be paying attention so then I give a sharp but very quick tug on the lead and that will get her back on track.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

My answer will vary depending on the rider.

If the horse lacks general ground manners but is being ridden by an experienced horseperson, then I believe the riding should do no harm and may actually produce good results in terms of general behavior.

On the other hand, if the horse disrespects the rider/owner because said rider/owner doesn't have the skills or knowledge to demand that respect... It becomes a classic case of "Horse got your number" and the issue will escalate from on the ground to under saddle quicker than you can say 'green on green equals black and blue'.

Just my two cents, coming from personal experience (I've been there).


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> After reading all of your various threads, I think you are projecting your fear/nervousness onto your horse. I think if you are this uncertain about your every move with her, you need to take some lessons on another horse and get your "sea legs" back and then get on your horse and start riding. You're waaaaay over analyzing and emotionalizing (is that even a word? well, anyhow, it is now) all this stuff.


Yes, this to a T. Your horse is your mirror, OP, have you heard that expression before?

If you are uneasy, your horse will fail to trust in your abilities to be the leader and will also become uneasy or worse, take charge and have things end in catastrophy.

My horse will take every moment of hesitation and take charge, and it has ended up horribly wrong in the past. It was only when I chose to assume my role as leader, suck it up, and be clear that he began to be more excited to work with me. And I him!

Now I can ride him without fear of HIM, it's just fear of my body position that's my issue now. And I'm working on it.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> After reading all of your various threads, I think you are projecting your fear/nervousness onto your horse. I think if you are this uncertain about your every move with her, you need to take some lessons on another horse and get your "sea legs" back and then get on your horse and start riding. You're waaaaay over analyzing and emotionalizing (is that even a word? well, anyhow, it is now) all this stuff.
> 
> I have a mare, and I've had her since she was 6 mos old just after weaning, and she came off the trailer leading and tying. Not great, but she did it. We did some ground work and I use the Parelli games with my youngsters to teach them all kinds of things so that by the time they're ready to be ridden, they've got a pretty good idea what's going on. She knows what a carrot stick is and you can do anything you want to her legs and feet, she's good with it all.
> 
> She's now 10 years old and she will STILL dig a hole to China when I tie her up if she's not kept busy and entertained. She respects me totally and not a single day goes by that she doesn't think of a way to test my leadership, sometimes she's subtle about it and others she's right up front. It's all about being an alpha, opinionated mare. Your mare is only 4, she is still figuring out where she's at in your relationship and who's going to be in charge. My mare does great ground work. But it's not perfect, it's never going to be perfect and I don't care. She's AWESOME under saddle, she's my go to horse and one of the very few on my place that doesn't have a price tag. She is not and never will be for sale, that's how much I think of her. And as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow, she's going to test me again. It's her nature. I can do 2 things, I can fret about how and when she's going to test me again or I can go along, knowing it will happen and deal with it when it does and move on. The only one that will make progress is the 2nd option, the first will freeze us in place.


I do agree that I need to stop babying her so much and I will make that adjustment starting today. When we walk by something and she finds it scary and she snorts, I will just not say anything and continue to walk her past it. I wont comfort her afterwards by rubbing her. Agree?

However, I do feel there are times where you need to comfort them, like when they are injured. When she got cut up on her face over a month ago and was scared as hell and panicking, I spent quite a bit of time calming her down and comforting her as I healed her up and gave her medical care in the barn.

I have to ask, how are you able to tell if a horse respects you or not? Can a horse still respect you but still choose to test you daily?

I know she has become attached to me, and hopefully its not because I feed her grain everyday and come let her out of her paddock everyday.

Many other people, including trainers have said this to me that they have noticed she has become attached to me and has become very fond of me and being around me. Previous owner said to me, "she will get attached to you really fast". 

Everyday when I get there, she will always stop what shes doing and watch me with her ears up until I get out of my car. If im in the car for 10mins before I get out, she will stand there and not move a single step. She will always either nicker or whiny at me, not just when I get there but just about every time she spots me. If she spots me from a distance, she will stand there and watch me. When I go see her, she will always come up to me. She is very easy to catch (but again shes in paddock {mind you a 3/4 acre one}, will be interesting to see if this changes when shes in the field in 1.5-2.5 weeks from now).


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> I have to ask, how are you able to tell if a horse respects you or not? Can a horse still respect you but still choose to test you daily?
> 
> I know she has become attached to me, and hopefully its not because I feed her grain everyday and come let her out of her paddock everyday.


Absolutely she respects me. She will get out of my space in a hot second if I ask her to. She will stand respectfully and wait for me to tell her what to do in any situation. She's totally easy to lead. 

And then one day, she'll decide, "Hmmmm, I haven't checked to see who's the boss today. I better find out." and she'll do something like be walking along very nicely and then decide she wants to graze while we're walking. I don't allow that and she knows it. If I want to hand graze her, I take her over to a nice patch of ungrazed lawn and I stop and let her graze. If we're just walking out to check the mail (1/2 mile driveway), she's to walk beside me and she's not to reach down and try to grab grass every other step. But every now and then, she has to try. And every single time she does, she gets the same reaction. I give her a tug on the lead and say, "NO" and keep walking. If she resists or puts her head down again, I tap her under her chin with the toe of my boot very gently. If she tries it again, she gets nailed firmly with the toe of my boot. VERY rarely will she push past the first tug. That's why I say, yes she respects me, but yes she tests me. She questions but doesn't go outright defiant. But immediately correcting her, she knows that I'm not abdicating my leadership role.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't think "respect" is being used correctly. I don't think horses are big on "respect". I think they either have been trained to do things we like, or trained to do things we dislike. A horse can be a sweetheart on the ground and a pain in the saddle.

I guess none of my horses have been "broke" since none knows what a carrot stick is and all would be worried if I started waving one around.

Cowboy freaks if you try to work him in a round pen - too many bad memories of bad round pen work in his past. Round pens may have ruined as many horses as they have helped. But if you take Cowboy's short, fat rump out on a trail ride...he's solid. Engaged, thinking, alert but not spooky, willing (if there is another horse). He is a darn good ride, but he sucks eggs at ground work. Leads, grooms and tacks up fine. Just don't start waving things at him or start running around with a tarp over your head or twirling ropes or sticks or in general do anything that will make him thing you belong in a straightjacket.

Cowboy is the chubby fellow in the front. The one NOT wearing a red shirt.










PS: I remember trying to put Mia in a round pen after a few years of riding. She looked at me like I had lost my mind. Maybe I had, because I clearly heard her say, "_Can't you just mount up? Let's go for a ride instead of going in circles!_" :wink: So we did...

:riding:​


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Do you ever get OUT of the arena? Sounds like your horse has been if she has been on trails and over bridges. My horses would be brain-dead bored if all I did was fuss and do groundwork. Actually, I would be brain-dead bored along with them. Horses have served humans for thousands of years without being desensitized with a carrot stick. I applaud the Natural Horsemanship movement for many things but the use of gadgets and excessive groundwork isn't one of them.
Have your trainer ride her and then get on and ride her yourself...and go someplace even if it's just outside and around the barn. Ride, ride and ride. And have fun! Isn't that why you have her? : )


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Absolutely she respects me. She will get out of my space in a hot second if I ask her to. She will stand respectfully and wait for me to tell her what to do in any situation. She's totally easy to lead.
> 
> And then one day, she'll decide, "Hmmmm, I haven't checked to see who's the boss today. I better find out." and she'll do something like be walking along very nicely and then decide she wants to graze while we're walking. I don't allow that and she knows it. If I want to hand graze her, I take her over to a nice patch of ungrazed lawn and I stop and let her graze. If we're just walking out to check the mail (1/2 mile driveway), she's to walk beside me and she's not to reach down and try to grab grass every other step. But every now and then, she has to try. And every single time she does, she gets the same reaction. I give her a tug on the lead and say, "NO" and keep walking. If she resists or puts her head down again, I tap her under her chin with the toe of my boot very gently. If she tries it again, she gets nailed firmly with the toe of my boot. VERY rarely will she push past the first tug. That's why I say, yes she respects me, but yes she tests me. She questions but doesn't go outright defiant. But immediately correcting her, she knows that I'm not abdicating my leadership role.


I always correct her. When shes tied in the barn and she moves her hind in towards me, I say a stern no, or quit and immediately move her back to where she was. She will not listen. SHe will move back to where she was easily but 2 seconds later, she will do it again. 

Ive even tried walloping her on the hind before (couple months ago), it doesnt phase her. When I move her back to where she was, I face her, she looks at me and I say stand. Sometimes Ive had to give a sharp downward tug on the lead and trust me she gets it. 

Over the past month, Ive started where once she stands for a good 5 secs after she gives me eye contact and 2 ears, I will reward her with rubs on the head so that she knows what she did was what I wanted.

Right now I cant do anything with her tied in the new barn. She is too preoccupied about her surroundings. Its frustrating cause even though I could go a few days without grooming her, I need to put fly spray on her daily because there are a lot of flies at this barn.

Like I said, I will tie her up tonight for at least an hour regardless of another horse being in the barn. When she paws or moves side to side I will allow for a good amount of time to pass before untying her. Because she might be tied for more than an hour, I might have her eat dinner first.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Yes, use one of your trainer's saddle.
> Many entry level people get obsessed with custom fitting a saddle, perhaps because they only ride one horse.
> Sure, a saddle should fit, but a well made saddle, built for a general type of horse, will fit many horses. Afterall, I trained horses we raised, from 4 to 6 three year olds, using the same saddle, year after year, and still use that as my everyday saddle on the horses I am currently riding.
> Do you think trainers get a custom fitted saddle for every horse that comes into training?
> ...


I could see the trainers point about using one of their saddles for now, but eventually I will need to get one so I figured might as well get it done and over with now over later. Plus horses like to get accustomed to their gear and id rather her just get used to a new permanent saddle now, than use a temp one than switch again later.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I would try NOT tying her....teach her to groundtie, making standing still HER responsibility. Start out with your leadrope over your arm, so you can make corrections. 

This exercise requires YoU to trust that she WILL do what you ask. The horse KNOWS if you trust or not.

"Horses get accustomed to their equipment.." Where did you read that? 
My horses regularly get ridden in different equipment, any one of 10 saddles, 13 carriages, 6 harnesses, 20 bridles.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> I would try NOT tying her....teach her to groundtie, making standing still HER responsibility. Start out with your leadrope over your arm, so you can make corrections.
> 
> This exercise requires YoU to trust that she WILL do what you ask. The horse KNOWS if you trust or not.


I have ground tied with her, quite a bit over the past couple weeks. She is much better and doesnt shift nearly as much when ground tied. I brush her and she stand still. She takes the odd step here and there but I put her back in her place.

In fact when I started ground tying her, my goal was that I would do this with her, then when she stands still, I bring her back into the barn and see if those new adjustments she made would apply to inside the barn when tied to the post.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being nice to your horse and petting on her when she is doing what you want. That's how you make horses that want to work for you and have drive to understand what you want from them. I tru to spend as much time petting on them as I spend reprimanding them.
By telling you to stop babying her, i just mean stop making excuses for her and raise the expectation bar. For instance: you say she often tests you by getting in your space. To me, that's saying you aren't using enough pressure to convince her she doesnt want to do that. You're much better off getting in a horse hard - whipping him good one time, then leaving him alone, than you are tapping him lightly repeatedly. A horse will have more "respect" for the rules when the punisent comes strong and quick rather than nagging on them. Once you've corrected them and they respond how you want, then by all means pet and reward them. A horse will understand easiest when things are very black and white - stand in my bubble and life is unpleasant stand outside my bubble and life is lovely. Some horses a look or a sound is enough pressure, other horses might need to be whipped hard to understand (or conversely petted vigorously. )Use as much pressure as needed to get a response. Continue to use too little pressure when you arent getting the response you want just dulls them further.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

enh817 said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with being nice to your horse and petting on her when she is doing what you want. That's how you make horses that want to work for you and have drive to understand what you want from them. I tru to spend as much time petting on them as I spend reprimanding them.
> By telling you to stop babying her, i just mean stop making excuses for her and raise the expectation bar. For instance: you say she often tests you by getting in your space. To me, that's saying you aren't using enough pressure to convince her she doesnt want to do that. You're much better off getting in a horse hard - whipping him good one time, then leaving him alone, than you are tapping him lightly repeatedly. A horse will have more "respect" for the rules when the punisent comes strong and quick rather than nagging on them. Once you've corrected them and they respond how you want, then by all means pet and reward them. A horse will understand easiest when things are very black and white - stand in my bubble and life is unpleasant stand outside my bubble and life is lovely. Some horses a look or a sound is enough pressure, other horses might need to be whipped hard to understand (or conversely petted vigorously. )Use as much pressure as needed to get a response. Continue to use too little pressure when you arent getting the response you want just dulls them further.


Im strong for correcting her but if I put more pressure on I dont know where to go from here aside from walloping her but hitting her does absolutely nothing.

I could hit her on the hind real hard with my lunge whip and she gets the point. This is what I did when she used to turn her butt to me.

But something like pawing, I will say quit very firmly, loud and clear and every time she will look up at me and give me 2 ears. So she knows.

For backing her up, out of my space I stomp my feet while walking into her and flick my arms towards her. When I do it aggresively she will respond but I find that its impossible to do this while holding the lead without having her lead or bucket coming up in her face.

Even my past trainers have all said it, shes one of the more resistant horses theyve worked with in backing up and she just dreds it and will fight you when you aggresively back her up.

I have two lunge whips (5ft and 2ft), a carrot stick and a flag. I think i need to start carrying one of these around with me ALL THE TIME for the next while. It will put added pressure on her when sometimes my hands and feet wont be enough.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> She said that she's taken a lot longer to grow up than the usual average horse because when she was born, her original breeder just tossed her out in the field with her herd. She didnt work with her, she didnt spend time with her, she didnt do any ground work with her. She didnt teach her how to respect people. And because of her not being handled, lead, haltered very often by the owner, she pretty much just spent her first two years of her life in the field playing with her friends.
> 
> So because of her lack of interaction around humans for her first couple years, that would explain why shes taken a lot longer to grow up and have respect for humans.


Hogwash. My gelding had minimal handling his first 18 months and then was stuck in a 15' by 25' pipe stall for six months. The most handling he got was leading to turnout (about 100ft) and back once or twice a week. He was actually EASIER to handle than a lot of horses I've handled that had been handled on a regular basis.



Hoofpic said:


> I dont have a saddle, yet. But hoping to get a few to try on her in the next week or so. The trainer says in the meantime I can always just use one of their 15 saddles in their tach room (used by their lesson horses). Good or bad idea?
> 
> I want a saddle that will fit her perfect. I dont want to just toss on a bunch of saddles and pick and use the one that fits her the best of them all, but doesnt nessecarily mean it fits her without any discomfort. I told my trainer this, this is why Ive been spending the past couple weeks looking at my saddle options, because I want a saddle that will fit her perfect. Ive been very cautious about it as I dont want her to get lame again from her previous owner using a saddle that was over time too tight (from her having out grown it).


Use one of the trainer's saddles. You're not going to get a perfect fit at this age and if you do, it'll likely change in the next six months or so and you'll be on the hunt for another "perfect fit." At this age, "good enough" works fine.



Hoofpic said:


> Im not unsure. Im pretty confident riding her safely. Im just a bit uneasy about riding a horse that doesnt fully respect me yet. Better than before but not 100%.


So in other words, you're unsure about riding her. Which is it? Either you're confident riding her or you're unsure/uneasy about riding her because she doesn't respect you. Your words, not mine. Just reading what you wrote.

My best friend's mare tests me on a near-constant basis. She bites, nips, lips, rubs, pushes into my space. I've worked with her (granted not consistently) for over two years. She knows me and knows what I will and will not tolerate, but she still tests. Am I uncomfortable riding her because she constantly tests me? Not in the slightest. She's honestly a great horse and, despite her jackhammer trot, she's a great ride. 



Hoofpic said:


> Im just a bit discouraged I guess you say that I still have to correct her as often as I do. 9/10 times its usually from her getting in my space. Basic stuff like this IMO, shouldnt even be an issue anymore 3 months into horse ownership.


I've ridden plenty of horses who had shoddy ground manners and never had any problems. None of the mares at the Girl Scout horse camp I worked at knew anything beyond basic leading and tying. Some of them were awful on the ground. Once you were in the saddle, they went to work. 

The mare with the worst ground manners was the one we used as our lead horse on trail rides. The first time I went to saddle her, she sat back HARD and seemed to be completely panicking, just because I'd put the saddle pad on her. She was testing me, trying to see if I'd let her out of work because she was "afraid." I gave her a swat on the butt and told her to quit it. She stepped forward and stood calmly and quietly for me to finish saddling her and never tested me again. She was the horse I usually rode on our off days when us wranglers got to go on rides together without any girls because she was an absolute gem under saddle. Dumber than a box of rocks, but steady as could be.

My old BO runs a dude string and I rented one of his horses once before my gelding was broke. These horses are in their stalls 24/7 with no turnout (except once or twice during the winter when he throws them all in the arena for an hour to "exercise" them). They're pulled out when they are to be used for a dude string ride, saddled, expected to remain standing tied and saddled for hours on end, and are ridden by completely beginners most of the time. Their ground manners consist of leading, backing (reluctantly), and standing tied. Yet beginners ride these horses on a regular basis with no problems. Yes, they have their little quirks under saddle (the gelding I rode liked to try to eat as we rode, but one correction made him realize that I meant business and knew what I was about, so he stopped trying), but for the most part, they're solid, steady horses who know their job. Groundwork didn't make them that way. Miles and wet saddle blankets did.



Hoofpic said:


> However, I do feel there are times where you need to comfort them, like when they are injured. When she got cut up on her face over a month ago and was scared as hell and panicking, I spent quite a bit of time calming her down and comforting her as I healed her up and gave her medical care in the barn.
> 
> I have to ask, how are you able to tell if a horse respects you or not? Can a horse still respect you but still choose to test you daily?
> 
> ...


The most comfort they need is to know that you're a strong leader and will take care of them. 

My best friend's TB gelding ran through a pipe corral fence and chased a mountain lion out of their arena in the middle of the night. His legs were all cut up, he was bleeding profusely and he was still "hyped" on adrenaline when we found him. He also had the corral gate stuck over his head, neck and shoulders. We got him extricated from the gate, calmed down, and started treating his cuts. Took us two hours to get all of them cleaned and treated (luckily none of them needed stitching). Not once did we "comfort" him or baby him. He was expected to stand like a gentleman and be quiet the entire time we were working on him and received correction if he didn't do as asked. I have pics if you'd like to see just how bad it was.

The very first thing I had to do with my old gelding was treat his eye because he'd banged it against something and needed ointment applied twice daily. I walked into his stall, put his halter on, and applied the ointment. No comforting, no babying. Just quiet, calm confidence. 

That gelding ended up LOVING me (as much as horses are capable of love, as we think of it). He would call to me when he would see my truck pull up and when I'd turn him out, he'd pace and call to me as I walked away. He was always first to greet me and was an absolute love bug with me. Yet he constantly tested me, as well. 

There is a huge difference between "love" (as we perceive it from our horses) and respect. They don't necessarily go hand in hand. I've worked with horses that I didn't particularly care for and that I could tell didn't particularly like me, but we had a relatively good working relationship. By the same token, I've worked with horses who were in-your-pocket love bugs in the pasture or their stall, who were the biggest monsters and had the least respect, even after constant correction, when you asked them to do something.

You need to stop over-analyzing EVERYTHING and, as my old BO said, just ride your **** horse. :icon_rolleyes: Stop asking everyone's permission to do stuff with your horse or asking if your approach sounds okay. Just do it. Your horse will tell you if it's working or not.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Im strong for correcting her but if I put more pressure on I dont know where to go from here aside from walloping her but hitting her does absolutely nothing.
> 
> *I could hit her on the hind real hard with my lunge whip and she gets the point. This is what I did when she used to turn her butt to me.*
> 
> ...


Re ONLY the bold, instead of always smacking her... the first time a smack is warranted but then if she does it again MAKE HER YIELD HER BUTT. Aka turn on the forehand. 

If she doesn't already know how to do it from your cue, teach her BEFORE it becomes an issue. Aka she's standing quietly, apply pressure, if she even shifts away, back off and praise. Keep doing this until she takes a step away, back off then praise. Keep going until you build up to 2 steps, then eventually 3, then more than eventually a half circle, then finally a full turn on the forehand.

Everytime she moves away from your pressure, soften up but keep cueing. You want the softest cue possible. If I even stare at my horse's hind end, with my chest facing him, he yields it to me.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Re ONLY the bold, instead of always smacking her... the first time a smack is warranted but then if she does it again MAKE HER YIELD HER BUTT. Aka turn on the forehand.
> 
> If she doesn't already know how to do it from your cue, teach her BEFORE it becomes an issue. Aka she's standing quietly, apply pressure, if she even shifts away, back off and praise. Keep doing this until she takes a step away, back off then praise. Keep going until you build up to 2 steps, then eventually 3, then more than eventually a half circle, then finally a full turn on the forehand.
> 
> Everytime she moves away from your pressure, soften up but keep cueing. You want the softest cue possible. If I even stare at my horse's hind end, with my chest facing him, he yields it to me.


I havent smacked her in a long time cause I resorted to other ways since smacking her anywhere aside from her hind isnt effective.

Dont you mean to move her hind? 

Is moving her forequarters more effective? And yes she knows how to do it, though it had to be taught to her and it was one of the first things we did with her.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Im strong for correcting her but if I put more pressure on I dont know where to go from here aside from walloping her but hitting her does absolutely nothing.
> 
> I could hit her on the hind real hard with my lunge whip and she gets the point. This is what I did when she used to turn her butt to me.
> 
> ...


Re the bold

My boy used to be the SAME WAY. You know what I did that finally made it click? Work on yielding to facial pressure. He always felt locked up or sticky or resistant and you CANNOT fight him. So I started by having him in a rope halter and applying pressure to his nose and crown of his head (I suggest you stand on a mounting block, but before you do make sure your horse is OK with you being on a mounting block by their head. You don't need to add on to an already present issue) And if he even came down a little, I backed off and praised him. Kept going until he could yield all the way down without sticking. Let me tell you, it took FOREVER, but now he does it with no resistance. 

Then after he was ok with that, I also asked him to yield by pulling the rope straight down. 

_ONLY USE AS MUCH PRESSURE AS THE RESISTANCE THE HORSE IS GIVING YOU. This is not a strength contest, because you will *lose*_

Once he got comfortable with that, then I, like you, tried to get him to back up by some crazy method that worked but it still wasn't fluid and relaxed.

FOUR YEARS LATER (yep...) I was watching a video on unlocking the horse's stifle/realigning the hip because, why not? and the method was backing up a horse 10 feet backwards by pressure on their nose into their chest with their head level with their hips (not up like a giraffe). And it had to be done fast. Well all that yielding to facial pressure work paid off, because my horse didn't stick once. No stomping, no fighting him, no scaring him into doing it. I just stood square infront (be careful OP at first, stand off to the side) and apply pressure to the nose straight back towards their tail) and with all the prep work he softly and swiftly backs up with his head level and it's smooth and relaxed and pretty.

Guess what, that translated into under saddle backing up. 

TLDR; prep your horse properly to yield to facial pressure in order to have a good back-up.

P.S if your horse feels locked, they may have a misalignment somewhere along their back/hips.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> I havent smacked her in a long time cause I resorted to other ways since smacking her anywhere aside from her hind isnt effective.
> 
> Dont you mean to move her hind?
> 
> Is moving her forequarters more effective? And yes she knows how to do it, though it had to be taught to her and it was one of the first things we did with her.


OP, yielding butt = moving her hind

Turn on the forehand = forehand is still, back legs cross over in a circle

AKA turn on her front end = move her back end = yield her butt


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Use one of the trainer's saddles. You're not going to get a perfect fit at this age and if you do, it'll likely change in the next six months or so and you'll be on the hunt for another "perfect fit." At this age, "good enough" works fine.


So are you saying I should use one of the trainers saddles for the next 6 months or so? Im going to have to get one eventually for my own. 



> So in other words, you're unsure about riding her. Which is it?


Right now Im fine.




> My best friend's mare tests me on a near-constant basis. She bites, nips, lips, rubs, pushes into my space. I've worked with her (granted not consistently) for over two years. She knows me and knows what I will and will not tolerate, but she still tests. Am I uncomfortable riding her because she constantly tests me? Not in the slightest. She's honestly a great horse and, despite her jackhammer trot, she's a great ride.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the examples. 



> You need to stop over-analyzing EVERYTHING and, as my old BO said, just ride your **** horse. :icon_rolleyes: Stop asking everyone's permission to do stuff with your horse or asking if your approach sounds okay. Just do it. Your horse will tell you if it's working or not.


Yes I know, Im stopping overanalyzing everything as of right now. I will just let nature take its course.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> OP, yielding butt = moving her hind
> 
> Turn on the forehand = forehand is still, back legs cross over in a circle
> 
> AKA turn on her front end = move her back end = yield her butt


Actually Ive been doing this all along when correcting her, up to a week ago or so when one of the members on here said getting a horse to give up their hind for you does nothing but annoy them. He insisted that I aggresively back them up instead.

When I did it with her, I would make her do it in both directions and the amount of circles I make her do, the amount of pressure I put on her was all dependant on the severity of what she did.

Maybe I should get back to doing this again?

Cause when I did it, she would give me her hind no problem even after going in circles. Her head is up, eyes on me, ears up, and when I get her to stop, she stays focused on me and I get her to stand for a bit before wheeling her in or she will come in slowly with her head down and sniff my hand. Ive done this so many times with her, she knows the routine by now and thats why she acts on it right away and gives me her full attention the first time I do it without having to make her go for a 2nd go around. This was my go to method every single time when correcting her.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Actually Ive been doing this all along when correcting her, up to a week ago or so when one of the members on here said getting a horse to give up their hind for you does nothing but annoy them. He insisted that I aggresively back them up instead.
> 
> When I did it with her, I would make her do it in both directions and the amount of circles I make her do, the amount of pressure I put on her was all dependant on the severity of what she did.
> 
> ...


Backing up is an alternative to making them yield their butt FROM you instead of towards you. I like to use both for different reasons. If my horse is dancing around like a loon then backing up. If they swing into me, they yield until I say they are done.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Re the bold
> 
> My boy used to be the SAME WAY. You know what I did that finally made it click? Work on yielding to facial pressure. He always felt locked up or sticky or resistant and you CANNOT fight him. So I started by having him in a rope halter and applying pressure to his nose and crown of his head (I suggest you stand on a mounting block, but before you do make sure your horse is OK with you being on a mounting block by their head. You don't need to add on to an already present issue) And if he even came down a little, I backed off and praised him. Kept going until he could yield all the way down without sticking. Let me tell you, it took FOREVER, but now he does it with no resistance.
> 
> ...


Does this need to be done on a mounting block? Cause I have before backed her up by applying pressure on her face (above nose) with my index, middle finger and thumb on the bridge of her nose.

Is this still effective without a mounting block? Maybe I should try this out as an alternative to getting her to back up more willingly?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I used a Circle Y saddle that belonged to my old BO for the first few months I had my gelding. I even used his Abetta synthetic (I have a bad shoulder and lifting that 45lbs saddle onto a 15+hh horse was starting to take its toll). They fit decently enough to ride in. I've bought and sold several saddles since I got my gelding, but only one of them was sold because it didn't fit him (my Aussie saddle...I convinced myself it fit him because I loved it so much). The others weren't comfortable for me. 

The Abetta...not a perfect fit, but definitely good enough...he's 2.5, almost 3 in this pic:


The Circle Y (not me riding, but my trainer)...again, not perfect, but he didn't care...this was his fourth ride ever:


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

> applying pressure to his nose and crown of his head


Isnt it the bridge of his nose you apply pressure to? Just above his muzzle


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The thing about any training is consistency, which you say you have. 

What you are not getting is the desired result and this is, I am sure, because you are not demanding enough and this results in nagging. 

I hate being nagged, I would rather have a big row and get it over and done with and am the same with the horses.

One of my favourite tools is a hoof pick. Not the folding type but the straight handled one without a brush. It fits into a pocket easily.

If I were doing something with your horse and she was tied and swung into me I would correct by pushing her back, the second time she dos it I would use the flat of my hand on her belly and be firmer with my voice and the next time she would run into the pointed end of the hoof pick. 

When it come to making her back if she didn't do this from pressure on her nose or a poke on the chest with a forefinger I would again use the hoof pick. They don't like that and very quickly learn to move back or away from you with the lightest of pressure. 

I had a woman bring her stubborn ignorant horse to me and he would rather walk through you than around, I taught her the hoof pick method and within a couple of days he was moving back or to the side with just a word and a rope shake. 

A horse that keeps moving and fussing when you are with it is showing no respect or trust.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Thanks FoxHunter I will have to try that out regarding the hoofpic. I figure just about any hoofpic would work as long as it has the pointy end.

One of my trainers from way back suggested I wallop her really hard from under the belly if I have to ask more than once for her not to come into me when tied. But Ive always heard that downforce to the belly on horses is not a good idea because their bellies dont have much protection from force. So I didnt bother wacking her real hard on the belly. Is there any validness to this?

The hoofpic sounds like a wonderful idea! How exactly would you use it in getting her out of your space? Put the pointy end in front of her face so she can see it and start walking towards her?

What if she walks into it hard? Cant the hoof pic end cut into them?

Also, where exactly again is this spot on their nose that we push back on for them to back? Its been months since ive done this. Im pretty sure its the soft spots on the sides of their noses but I could be wrong. I stopped doing it because she hated it and wanted to resort to gentlier, less aggresive methods but what do you know, I need to go for more aggresive methods right now. And I will have to carry a stick or hoofpic with me at all times for the next while.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Been thinking about this while I was washing breakfast dishes at work...

You make it sound like you are expecting absolute perfection from her 100% of the time. You're expecting her to act like a 100% completely broke, been-there-done-that horse. Yes, she's going to test you. She's a baby. That's what they do. Don't take it personal and just correct her when she misbehaves. I can guarantee you she's not thinking "How can I get the human today? How am I going to test her?" She's testing her boundaries, like any toddler would do. I'm not saying make excuses for her or baby her, just make sure that any corrections are immediate and fair. 

My gelding is one of the easiest horses to handle at my barn. He's easy to catch, easy to halter, stands tied well (except for his habit of trying to drop his head to graze). He was none of that when I bought him as a virtually unhandled 2yo stud colt. He was pushy, bargey, wouldn't stop when you did, had no clue about personal space and was just a pain. The only thing he did decent was stand tied, but even then he wasn't actually tied (I trained him to tie using a Blocker tie ring, so he actually got loose a couple of times to follow me...goob). I didn't expect perfection from him from the get-go. I expected baby steps. 

She sounds like a typical baby. Very short attention span, overwhelmed easily, and sensitive to unfair treatment. Do you have kids or have you dealt with kids? They're the exact same way. What feels like them constantly testing you and acting basically like gnats on crack is really just them being kids and learning their place in the world. Same with young horses.

I think a lot of us, you included, are forgetting that your mare is young and likely to test boundaries. That doesn't mean you don't expect good behavior from her, but it means you don't expect her to act like something she isn't, like a broke-to-death older horse.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks FoxHunter I will have to try that out regarding the hoofpic. I figure just about any hoofpic would work as long as it has the pointy end.
> 
> One of my trainers from way back suggested I wallop her really hard from under the belly if I have to ask more than once for her not to come into me when tied. But Ive always heard that downforce to the belly on horses is not a good idea because their bellies dont have much protection from force. So I didnt bother wacking her real hard on the belly. Is there any validness to this?
> 
> ...


Hoofpicks aren't sharp at all. If your hoofpick is sharp, there's other issues there.

Horses kick each other in the flank all the time. When my old gelding stepped over the top of me while I was wrapping his polo wraps, my friend kicked him hard in the belly to get him off the top of me. Didn't hurt him one bit. Startled the heck out of him, for sure, but he wasn't hurt.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

My balance ride saddle, now thirty years old. Does not owe me a 
cent!

Charlie


Cuba, my green horse


Charlie again


A filly I trained about 9 years ago



another filly I trained and sold



Smilie, same saddle



Susie, broodmare I sold, same saddle

San stone, my old reining mare, now 30-same saddle



Frankie, same saddle



Just a few horses I rode with that balance ride.
I even rode Carmen with it, for about two years, the only horse it did not really fit. I have since bought her a Billy Cook Even her, though, i rode in pretty rough country, using that balance ride. I also use AiRride pads
A good saddle can last a lifetime, and well worth the investment, and you can always make payments


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i agree, a horse is not a machine, and has a mind of their own, thus will test you, esp when still green.
What creates a solid horse, is time riding, with consistent balance of being light when the horse is light, recognizing when the horse is resistant, then using the right combo of legs , reins, seat, holding and driving and also release at the correct time. That requires feel, and something you will need someone to help you with.
Horses are creatures of habit
No amount of endless ground work is going to create that 'finished bridle horse', the one that obeys invisible leg cues, stays evenly between the reins, working off of seat and legs-only good progressive training under saddle will create that.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpicks aren't sharp at all. If your hoofpick is sharp, there's other issues there.
> 
> Horses kick each other in the flank all the time. When my old gelding stepped over the top of me while I was wrapping his polo wraps, my friend kicked him hard in the belly to get him off the top of me. Didn't hurt him one bit. Startled the heck out of him, for sure, but he wasn't hurt.


Ok, thanks so I shouldnt be worried about smacking her hard from under the belly. I know farriers do this all the time with horses who dont stand still and it makes me cringe when I see it. They use the butt end of their filers.

Looks like I will keep my hoofpic in my pocket tonight when shes tied. Will also have my lunge whip with me.

Im going to groom her (try at least) and do Fox's method with the hoofpic (move back on the first time, wallop on belly on 2nd time and stick out the hoofpic on the 3rd time). Lets see if she catches on.

Then when this is done, I will let her stand there tied for at least a good hour or until she stands without pawing or moving left and right. I will feed her, her grain before in case it ends up being a long night.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have never used a hand on their nose to make them go back, I shake the rope and use a pressure on the chest. 

I have never managed to damage a horse with a hoof pick. 

As said, horses kick each other on the belly all the time and using my hand - which could be likened to a stokers shovel in size, doesn't hurt them, it is the surprise factor.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> I have never used a hand on their nose to make them go back, I shake the rope and use a pressure on the chest.
> 
> I have never managed to damage a horse with a hoof pick.
> 
> As said, horses kick each other on the belly all the time and using my hand - which could be likened to a stokers shovel in size, doesn't hurt them, it is the surprise factor.


There was a way i was taught, its basically two pressure points on a horses head, qwhen you apply pressure with your hand, it blocks their nasel passageways I believe.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

One thing I will add. 

From experience of working with animals particularly horses and dogs, I have found that the tougher you are over initial training, providing it is fair, the more the animal will want to please you.

The horse I have been helping with was mannerless. Wouldn't lunge or stand still when doing anything with him. 
I was tough with him. I didn't ask, I demanded. He, the first few days, made it known that he didn't like being made to do what he was asked, he did it but not happily and threw a few temper tantrums. When he did I just laughed whilst he threw himself about, and when he realised that I was totally unfazed by his antics, gave up. 

I knew I 'had' him when I pulled up in my car and he would whinny to me. I never fed him so it wasn't that, he learned to enjoy his work with me rather than ruling the roost.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Well just got here and about to bring her in. Theres not a single horse inside. 

Hoofpic and stick with me.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

My horse has pretty good ground manners. One of the only things he did that was bad was when he was tied up to a fence and you groomed him he would on occasion step into you. I would push him back and he was fine but this went on for ages. My correction would stop the immediate behaviour but not stop it long term. It didn't really bother me because I was focussed on other things but a few months ago it started annoying me, so I just looped then rope and held the end and then when he did it again I had a massive response I drove him hard and fast away from me. I kept him moving a good 30ft, back and to the side. My response was sudden and explosive and he moved quick.

Hasn't done it since.

Not all corrections need to be like that, or they would become less effective, but if your isn't improving then perhaps you're not correcting enough.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

So far so good,20mins tied so far and shes been quiet. No horses here. The barn Radio is on this time

I almost dont want to put fly spray on her and just leave her be.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> She said that she's taken a lot longer to grow up than the usual average horse because when she was born, her original breeder just tossed her out in the field with her herd. She didnt work with her, she didnt spend time with her, she didnt do any ground work with her. She didnt teach her how to respect people. And because of her not being handled, lead, haltered very often by the owner, she pretty much just spent her first two years of her life in the field playing with her friends.


Hogwash.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> Ok, thanks so I shouldnt be worried about smacking her hard from under the belly. I know farriers do this all the time with horses who dont stand still and it makes me cringe when I see it. They use the butt end of their filers.
> 
> Looks like I will keep my hoofpic in my pocket tonight when shes tied. Will also have my lunge whip with me.
> 
> ...


I'll admit, I'm a bonafide bellykicker. If I'm in a situation where the horse has given me the middle finger a few times when I've tried to correct them nicely, I'll go to the belly. If one kicks at me, or tries to trap me against a wall, or any other dangerous behavior that needs to be stopped immediately, I'll go to the belly. If I don't have a whip or lead rope handy, I'll go to the belly. 
I aim to kick with my toe square up underneath them, somewhere behind where the back cinch would go, careful not to kick their stifle, as that hurts your foot BAD. I can keep myself in a safe spot, to the side of the horses, where I can't get kicked, pawed or run over, and I try to always have a hold of their face, so I can maintain control, as they most often react by leaping forward. A person using their foot (or a tool like hoof pick, etc) is not strong enough to do any real damage doing this, but boy the horse sure thinks you did for a moment. Perhaps it knocks the wind out of them a little bit? The element of surprise, the perceived vulnerability of the area, and the fact that most people don't go to the belly so it hasn't been dulled up yet, make it one of the most effective ways for correcting horse that I've found. 



A couple things to ponder over: 
Try not to get so caught up in 'this correction' or 'that one', 'this tool' or 'this method' for punishment. In all honesty, it doesn't really matter what or where the pressure comes from. The important thing is when the pressure is released. That's what 'trains' the horse... Where he finds release. Technically, I could teach a horse to spin whenever I pull his tail. Simply put, If I pull on his tail until he performs the proper foot work for a spin (put as simply as possible), and then I quit pulling on his tail when he does, he will learn to go into a spin whenever his tail gets pulled, as that's what he was conditioned to do, to make the pressure go away. 
The timing of applying pressure and giving release is what you should be focusing on, not necessarily the actually method or tool used. 
Now, thousands of years of man studying horses and training, has allowed us to figure out a set of cues and corrections that seem to be most convenient and make the most sense to horse and rider. 
With that in mind, you will likely have a lot more success when your corrections actually relate to the offense. Horses are very simple minded. The more black and white you can make things the easier they will learn. A general good rule of thumb, is make your horse do the opposite of what he's wanting to do and then release him. The only times I ever use backing up as a 'correction' is if the horse is trying to get ahead of me when leading or is otherwise trying to leave by going forward, when I'm not asking him to. I would back him intensely for a handful of steps then release and pet on him, so he starts to figure out that release is found behind him, not in front of him. The other time I would use it, is with a horse that wants to blow back, and thinks he can get away from me and my pressure by throwing it in reverse. Again, I will aggressively back them, but in this case for many steps. We may even back all over the property, until they're begging to stop, then I offer them to stand still and have release. If they don't take it and blow back, again we go, backing until they absolutely don't want to back anymore. In this case, teaching them that there is no release to be found by running backwards. 
The reason I illustrate this example, is because you've talked about having a hard time getting your mare to back up because she gets resistance, and you also mention using backing up as punishment.... Can you see the problem here? Of course your horse doesn't want to back up, you've made that the bad place. 
You constantly have to be aware of what message you are sending the horse. Where they are encountering pressure and where they are finding release. Until that sort of thinking becomes second nature, you'll have to regularly check yourself, to make sure your training is actually reinforcing the behaviors you're seeking. 
I need to get video of my horse 'leading' around to use as example. I can have nothing on her face and still be able to move her body anywhere I want without ever touching her. That's the ideal. To be able to have them so with you and so clear on the rules, that it's like you have a lead rope to their brain. Of course there are a number of steps I took and things I taught her before getting her to that point - teaching her to face up and get hooked with me in the rounpen, teaching her the parameters for leading without getting too close or too far away from me, etc etc. But it was never a big deal, I just worked on getting her a little more broke in the halter, each day, as I got her out to go ride. 
And just to illustrate another point about people's misconceptions of 'respect' between horse and human. To watch me work with this mare on the ground, many people would think that she really has a lot of respect for me. She clearly knows to stay out of my space, if I walk at any body part, she will move it to get out of my way, she won't leave me for anything, I can hit a jog and she will trot to stay with me, stop when i stop, back up when i back up, no matter what else is going on around us, etc etc. 
But let me tell you, that is 100% not the case. This same mare bucked me off hard into the fence less than a week ago. (And thinks about bucking me off practically every time I ride her) Yes, it was a calculated move, designed to remove me (the source of pressure) from her back, but it wasn't personal. Neither the great leading and ground manners, nor the bucking have anything to do with respect, as evident by the fact that the same mare, on the same day, can lead as good as the most gentle broke horse in the world and violently buck me off moments later. These are all just trained responses. The mare leads like a dream because I taught her that where I want her is where release is, the mare bucks because the previous owners taught her to buck people off by allowing that to be where she found release. With a lot of blood sweat and tears, I've made loads of progress on the bucking issue. But think - if she's been able to successfully get away from pressure by dumping people numerous times in the past (to where you couldn't even get on her - she'd just bronc out before you even got sat down in the saddle), how much of me making sure pressure does NOT go away when she bucks will it take before the memories and conditioned responses from her past are overridden? The answer is A LOT. Luckily I'm in a great, safe, educated environment and I have many tools at my disposal to do this while keeping myself safe. 

My point in all this, is to illustrate how important it is to dedicate yourself to understanding how a horse's brain works. It's really a very simple thing, but we humans love to over complicate things. It's a very common for novice horse owners to take a perfectly gentle broke horse and teach it to do dangerous things, in no time at all. We fix these horses all day long.
Know that your horse is always learning, once you've taught them something solid you still have to reinforce it. Constantly be aware of where the horse is encountering pressure and where the horse is finding release. And make sure those moments align with what you're trying to teach the horse. *Make sure you're always releasing them to the desired behavior and that the undesired behavior always brings about enough pressure to inspire the horse to search for that release.* That's all horse training is.... that and the thousands and thousands of hours spent perfecting your timing and feel or ability to read/communicate with the horse.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> So far so good,20mins tied so far and shes been quiet. No horses here. The barn Radio is on this time
> 
> I almost dont want to put fly spray on her and just leave her be.



THIS. You're on the right path of thinking... 
We discussed how you have to release them to the desired behavior. If you want her to stand tied relaxed, she's going to have to enjoy being tied. That's a good place, standing tied. How do we achieve that? By making sure we're not putting pressure on her when she's standing relaxed. As much as we like to think our horses enjoy our presence. The reality is, most of the time, most of them see you just being there as pressure. That's fine, they need to accept that, but if you want a horse to understand something like the tie rack being a good place, the fastest way to achieve that is to just leave them alone while they are there. Obviously a horse can't understand that fly spray makes the flies go away. To them, it's just a human putting pressure on them using a spray of liquid. If I were in your shoes, trying to get a horse to stand quiet, I'd do just what you described and forget about the fly spray or doing anything else with them tied, really. When I did go to untie them, I'd try to move around them in a way that kept the pressure to a minimum, unless they attempt to do something like shove into my space or otherwise break already established boundaries. Do whatever you can to make being tied a good experience, understanding that the more she gets messed with and picked on when tied, the more she's going to dislike standing there. Obviously do what you need to get done with her -- grooming, saddling etc, but just get in and get out. Don't put unneeded pressure on her, so she can understand that being tied is a time to relax. She has obviously been conditioned to feel like being tied is a stressful/anxious/unenjoyable thing, so it's your job to reeducate her


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Im not sure how tonight went. I ended up having to tie her for 3 hours. She wasnt perfect at the end but as time went on, she was settling down and was pawing less. She went a scretch of 8 mins where she just stood there and didnt do anything. I could have waited longer but it was getting late, I was freezing and I didnt want to push it so I untied her after she stood quiet for 8mins.

I rewarded her with rubs and scratches and told her good girl. She was antzy to eat so I brought her back to her paddock and on the way she tried to get ahead of me a couple times. I immediately backed her up 3 steps, stand and then walk on after I give her the que. The second time she was getting pushy and tried to push into me with her face so I immediately walloped her on the chest with the end of the lead (i didnt have my whip on me) and backed her up, then moved her hind in a few circles each direction. We ended up doing it for 15mins as after I would stop, get her to stand a distance from me, she wasnt paying attention to me so I would work her more. I ended up having to lunge her in a couple circles each direction and then I asked for her hind and got her to stand without her coming into me. I understand she was hungry but it took me 10mins just to get her to stand still until I wheeled her in by wheeling in the lead. 

When she got in my space, I even tried backing her up by applying pressure on the two soft spots around their noses (where it has pressure points), and she didnt like it and swivelled her head and tried to nudge me to get away. I held on and was able to back her up a few steps, then she tried to bite me.

So I immediately had to correct her again. Again, of all times I need my whip I didnt have it on me so I walloped her as hard as I could on the chest with the end of the lead and I really meant it, she knew it. Then I oonce again moved her hind again in circles and got her to stand off away from me until I called her in.

Then I brought her into the paddock and she was getting impatient with her halter being taken off. As I take it off and its about half off, she tosses her head trying to wiggle out. But I immediately do it all back up, take her for a walk in the paddock and then try it all over again. It took us 4 times when finally she stood still until it was completely off. 

The BO noticed I was in the barn for a long time and I said I was trying to teach her to stand tied. He said that hes not a believer of making a horse stand tied for that long. He said "remember shes only 4, shes not going to have the patience of a 20 year old"...."As time goes on, she will become more patient"...."she just moved here last week, she needs time to adjust"...."if you bring her in to tie, have another horse with her or put obstacles out in the arena so that she can keep her mind stimulated"....

He said that I should do this in short repeated sessions vs one long one as horses learn from repetition. I asked what he meant and he basically said to just take her in, do what I need to do, untie her, thats it. rinse and repeat and over time she will stop pawing and will become more patient. 

Not sure what to think anymore. If I did what I did tonight by tying her for 3 hours again and he saw it, he might not have such kind words for me especially after just talkign with me tonight.

He said if anything, I most likely just made her upset at me tonight for tying her for so long. She was a handful when I walked her back to her paddock. He also said it was a bad time to do this with dinner time just around the corner, which I agree it was, my fault. Though I did feed her grain before going in.

Is he right? That shes most likely upset at me now and the next time I bring her in to tie she will remember this as a negative experience?

When I brought her back to her paddock, she was so bad! I had to correct her twice and I was very hard on her especially when she tried to bite me for backing her up from her nose. It wasnt a mean aggresive gesture, just a small sutle one but I still saw it.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

What a long night, Im exchausted, perhaps I should have waited until the weekend to do the tying session. And it was my fault doing it right before dinner time.

But Im very curious to see how she is towards me tomorrow night. I want to see if I will see a noticable improvement in her behaviour because I was very hard on her tonight. I just wish I had my lunge whip on me at the time when I had to correct her twice in a row. Using it on her hind would have sent a much more stronger message than hitting her on her chest with the end of the lead as hard as I would swing it.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Ultimately there are a million different ways to train a horse and half of those ways all work just fine! It's just finding a method that works for you. Honestly it's not the barn owners business how you train your horse as long as you aren't being cruel-which you are not. But I can appreciate the difficult position it puts you in. Plenty of horses go to shows at four and spend the day tied to the horse float between competing and they cope just fine. I think the best thing for you is to find a good trainer - hopefully your new one fits that bill and work with them. That way you have an experienced person of authority to back you up in those situations as opposed to the old-a forum on the Internet said. (Not that the advise here is less then excellent of course)


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

OoLaurenoO said:


> Ultimately there are a million different ways to train a horse and half of those ways all work just fine! It's just finding a method that works for you. Honestly it's not the barn owners business how you train your horse as long as you aren't being cruel-which you are not. But I can appreciate the difficult position it puts you in. Plenty of horses go to shows at four and spend the day tied to the horse float between competing and they cope just fine. I think the best thing for you is to find a good trainer - hopefully your new one fits that bill and work with them. That way you have an experienced person of authority to back you up in those situations as opposed to the old-a forum on the Internet said. (Not that the advise here is less then excellent of course)


Even though I dont agree with what the BO said to me tonight, I appreciate his concern that he was just trying to give me some advice. Hes worked with horses all his life and has very knowledgeable on them. He said that I most likely upsetted my horse tonight for tying her for 3 hours. I dont see how I made her upset. 

I will have to find a way to continue on with these tying sessions with my horse going back at er tomorrow night but in much shorter durations now. Otherwise if i dont follow up what I did tonight, tomorrow night and again the following night, that means tonight would have been a complete waste of time and nothing gained.

I know my new trainer isnt a fan of extensive tying sessions either. She says she believes you can teach a horse how to stand tied without the drawn out tying sessions.


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Like I said, there's multipe ways to teach things. If your trainer recommends another way and it works for you and your horse that that's great!  Personally I love the tie out sessions for these reasons so maybe if it's something you want to pursue have a discussion about it with your trainer. If they are half decent they will take the time to have a good discussion and really explain everything they do/don't do. You're paying them for there time after all and you want someone who can logically talk to you about what they do and why. So first, it's easy for me because I have multipe horses, so two or three can be tied while I work one then swap and change them as I like. The ones that are tied are still working, even though they are doing nothing. They get exposed to me working with the others, people wandering round, ect ect. Second,
It teaches them patience. So when I go out to a show or on a trail ride and get off and tie them to the float or a tree it's no big deal for them. Third, I think it's good in the sense that they 'work themselves out' to an extent. You don't have to nit pick,
Or nag them. They aren't reliant on you being there to settle while standing they just get to discover that standing tied is great and they don't have to do anything, all on there own.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

In my opinion, you made most all of the same choices I would've made. It was getting late, so you had to find a good quitting spot, which is fine. I do agree though, that it would probably be best to practice tying when you have all day, and to be reasonable about your expectations, if you're dealing with her during feeding time and such. Remember, you've got to make sure you're being fair and try not to set a horse up for failure. Not saying that's what happened tonight. 
I actually believe from the sound of it, that you will see some success from what you did this evening. I'm glad that you cracked down, and got firm with her when she wasn't walking well with you back to the pasture. I think you did pretty good here.

I completely disagree with the BO (and also don't think it's his business how you train your horse so long as you're being safe). We tie the 2 year olds out on the fence from day 1. They may stand there any amount of time, until someone gets to them. The whole idea we've been getting you to work towards, is having her understand that being tied is a nice time to just relax and hang out. Once she accepts being tied, it will become just that for her. 

You did what we discussed and just left her alone to work it out herself... she will not hold that against you or be angry with you. Remember, we talked about how horses don't think like that, and the fact that the BO said those things to you shows you just how little he knows about horses and training. Even if horses did think like that, you weren't there, you left her alone. The pressure wasn't coming from you, it was coming from the fence, if she moved. So maybe she'll be mad at the fence! (see how ridiculous that idea is?) 

Honestly, tying calmly isn't really about patience either. The idea of patience suggests the ability to think ahead into the future, know what's coming ahead and having the restraint to wait until it is time to experience what's coming.... or something, I don't know, but it involves a train of thought and reasoning that horses simply don't possess. Standing tied is more about the horse letting go of anxieties and accepting having their movement restrained. Horses that have accepted standing tied are in the same state of mind as a horse just resting in his stall, or in his pasture. One who is experiencing anxieties about being tied, is just like a horse in a new stall he hasn't gotten comfortable in yet. He just needs time to realize he can relax there and it is a relatively pressure-free zone. I see no difference in the two really. 
Yes, in general horses learn better in shorter sessions and yes they do learn from repetition. But standing tied is not the same as teaching a specific cue/response behavior. At this point, you aren't really trying to teach the horse to stand tied, you just have to let them figure it out on their own. Think of it more as sacking the horse out to being tied up just like you would sack them out with a flag or anything else that brings them unnecessary worries. For horses that just can't seem to figure it out, after many hours tied up (I'm talking days... not what I would consider your horse at this time) there are other options, like hobble training and such. But stick with what you're doing for a while longer and I bet you'll start to see some changes. I am interested to hear how she behaves for you tomorrow. Keep in mind too, that I firmly believe she will start to enjoy the easiness of standing tied, once you start riding her. When she's getting worked, I'm sure she'll realize how nice being tied and just getting to stand there really is


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

OoLaurenoO said:


> Like I said, there's multipe ways to teach things. If your trainer recommends another way and it works for you and your horse that that's great!  Personally I love the tie out sessions for these reasons so maybe if it's something you want to pursue have a discussion about it with your trainer. If they are half decent they will take the time to have a good discussion and really explain everything they do/don't do. You're paying them for there time after all and you want someone who can logically talk to you about what they do and why. So first, it's easy for me because I have multipe horses, so two or three can be tied while I work one then swap and change them as I like. The ones that are tied are still working, even though they are doing nothing. They get exposed to me working with the others, people wandering round, ect ect. Second,
> It teaches them patience. So when I go out to a show or on a trail ride and get off and tie them to the float or a tree it's no big deal for them. Third, I think it's good in the sense that they 'work themselves out' to an extent. You don't have to nit pick,
> Or nag them. They aren't reliant on you being there to settle while standing they just get to discover that standing tied is great and they don't have to do anything, all on there own.


Yes I agree, and it will be interesting to see what method my new trainer has when I do talk to her about standing tied. Obviously I will have to let her know what I did last night to keep her updated on our progress.

I know from speaking with her last weekend, she said her method is basically the same logics - tie them, leave them alone, reward when theyre quiet. But what if they paw and then stand quiet for the next 3 mins? How long does she wait before she rewards? Obviously its a lot quicker than the drawn out sessions and I question whether or not it would still send the same message.

Say the horse has been pawing and then quiet for 2mins. She rewards. Does that horse see them being untied as a reward for them standing quiet in the past 2 mins? Or does the horse see them being untied as a result for them pawing 2 mins ago and now getting what they want? See what Im getting at?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

enh817 said:


> I actually believe from the sound of it, that you will see some success from what you did this evening. I'm glad that you cracked down, and got firm with her when she wasn't walking well with you back to the pasture. I think you did pretty good here.


I hope so, but what I did with her last night in terms of setting her straight has been pretty much the same Ive been doing over the past 3 months, except it was extended (because she was distracted, not paying attn etc) and I upped the ante.



> I completely disagree with the BO (and also don't think it's his business how you train your horse so long as you're being safe).
> You did what we discussed and just left her alone to work it out herself... she will not hold that against you or be angry with you. Remember, we talked about how horses don't think like that, and the fact that the BO said those things to you shows you just how little he knows about horses and training. Even if horses did think like that, you weren't there, you left her alone. The pressure wasn't coming from you, it was coming from the fence, if she moved. So maybe she'll be mad at the fence! (see how ridiculous that idea is?)


I appreciate the BO trying to give me his input, but I felt just because what I did wasnt something he was a fan of, doesnt mean I shouldnt be allowed to do it anymore. Like you said, its my horse. 

But obviously I wont do it anymore because he will notice it and I will probably get a firm lecture or in trouble. As dumb as that sounds, but Ive only been at this place for coming up to a week now and the last thing I want is to get in trouble or get on the BO's bad side.




> At this point, you aren't really trying to teach the horse to stand tied, you just have to let them figure it out on their own. Think of it more as sacking the horse out to being tied up just like you would sack them out with a flag or anything else that brings them unnecessary worries.


And this is the point I was trying to tell the BO but he firmly believes that you dont need to tie for long periods of time for them to get your message. Im not sure about that. Unfortunately, he is not the only one I know (have talked to) who firmly thinks this way. Not one, but two of my past trainers feel the same way as well and my massage therapist as well. They all basically stemed around the fact she is only 4 years old, I cant expect the same patience out of her than an older horse and she will grow out of it as she gets older. They all firmly believe that if I just continue tying her when I need to do something with her, that over time she will stand tied.

I do agree with your assessment on riding her though. I do think once she gets used to being ridden again, she will enjoy standing tied more.



> I am interested to hear how she behaves for you tomorrow. )


I am as well, theres not a single person in this world that wants to find out how she is tonight than myself.

I dont mean to sound like a downer, but as optimistic as I want and try to be, I have my doubts on whether last night had an effect on her. I was really hard on her, but I question if I was hard enough. Did I want to draw out my session correcting her to 20mins? Of course not, but thats the time it took for her to give me her full attention, not ignore me, not be distracted, not take me seriously. I had to work her over and over because finally when I would get her to back and stand and give me 2 ears and eye contact, she wouldnt. 

So I worked her again and again until she did. It still took a lot of work on my part in getting her attention kept on me, I would have to give her sharp tugs on the lead to get her head back on me quite a few times, and it took even longer for her to understand that all I wanted her to do is stand at a distance from me until I gave her the que to come in. She would stand for 40secs, then walk off, or 50 secs then walk off, and of course I had to spend quite a bit of time getting her to stop, give me her hind again and back her up and stand again. Near the end I saw some licking and chewing going on so Im hoping she finally got it.


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## ManicMini (May 4, 2015)

If I were you, I would tell the barn owner, "Thanks for the advice but i've got this under control." Then go right back to training her the way you see fit. He's not your parent so why worry about getting in "trouble" or lectured? You aren't putting your horse in any danger by teaching her patience, you're teaching her the basics of what she should know! 

If I adhered to what people "firmly" believe should be happening in regards to my horse, i'd be riding him in a Walking Horse bit with 8" shanks and keg shoes. What i'm getting at is in the horse world loads of people are fanatics about how they train their horses. Some are diehard natural horsemanship fans, others not so much. Find what works for you and your horse and stick with it. If you aren't harming your horse or putting yourself in immediate danger and find yourself receiving unsolicited advice just smile, thank them for the advice and keep going about your business! I'm new to the horse world too and I finally started putting people in their place regarding MY horse's training.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

I see that 'they are young you can't expect that behaviour from them that young' argument a lot with dogs. 'Oh he's three? Give it another year before he settles down.' No. You don't wait for your dog to slow down of old age before you want his behaviour to change. You train them to behave as a two year old and they get to enjoy the prime of there life being happy well adjusted dogs that get to be a part of society. Same deal with horses. Like I said I have a yearling colt, (soon to be gelding) tie him up and he has a sleep. Put the halter on and he calmly walks beside you. He's a right pest out in the paddock. Charges around like a loon, harrangs the other horses but knows what's expected of him and is a very well behaved little kid.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I agree, and it will be interesting to see what method my new trainer has when I do talk to her about standing tied. Obviously I will have to let her know what I did last night to keep her updated on our progress.
> 
> I know from speaking with her last weekend, she said her method is basically the same logics - tie them, leave them alone, reward when theyre quiet. But what if they paw and then stand quiet for the next 3 mins? How long does she wait before she rewards? Obviously its a lot quicker than the drawn out sessions and I question whether or not it would still send the same message.
> 
> Say the horse has been pawing and then quiet for 2mins. She rewards. Does that horse see them being untied as a reward for them standing quiet in the past 2 mins? Or does the horse see them being untied as a result for them pawing 2 mins ago and now getting what they want? See what Im getting at?


Horses do not REALLY learn from the reward.....they learn from the RELEASE. Release of pressure. That is why you never quit until you get a good response. You do NOT have to pet, say good girl, give her a cookie or anything to teach her. 
When she stands still for a little bit(nobody knows this time) then untie, you rewarded her. She ONLY connects those two dots...still to untied. 

Sounds like you are making progress....I still believe the larger INNER Self would benefit you. 

When she tries to get ahead of you on the lead, just calmly and SUDDENLY go a different direction. Like, OOPS!! Decided to go over here...then she learns to pay attention without constant nagging.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

ManicMini said:


> If I were you, I would tell the barn owner, "Thanks for the advice but i've got this under control." Then go right back to training her the way you see fit. He's not your parent so why worry about getting in "trouble" or lectured? You aren't putting your horse in any danger by teaching her patience, you're teaching her the basics of what she should know!
> 
> If I adhered to what people "firmly" believe should be happening in regards to my horse, i'd be riding him in a Walking Horse bit with 8" shanks and keg shoes. What i'm getting at is in the horse world loads of people are fanatics about how they train their horses. Some are diehard natural horsemanship fans, others not so much. Find what works for you and your horse and stick with it. If you aren't harming your horse or putting yourself in immediate danger and find yourself receiving unsolicited advice just smile, thank them for the advice and keep going about your business! I'm new to the horse world too and I finally started putting people in their place regarding MY horse's training.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Im not sure if he will understand. I guess will have to see what the trainer says but I will be back at it tonight with the same thing. No I wont be going 3 hours, not even 2, maybe an hour and sooner if she stands quiet. If she learned anything from last night, then she should be calmer tonight, am I right? Or is it too soon to expect to see improvements in just one tying?



OoLaurenoO said:


> I see that 'they are young you can't expect that behaviour from them that young' argument a lot with dogs. 'Oh he's three? Give it another year before he settles down.' No. You don't wait for your dog to slow down of old age before you want his behaviour to change. You train them to behave as a two year old and they get to enjoy the prime of there life being happy well adjusted dogs that get to be a part of society. Same deal with horses. Like I said I have a yearling colt, (soon to be gelding) tie him up and he has a sleep. Put the halter on and he calmly walks beside you. He's a right pest out in the paddock. Charges around like a loon, harrangs the other horses but knows what's expected of him and is a very well behaved little kid.


I see it the same way. Why not break the habit now rather than "hoping" it will automatically break as they age?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> Horses do not REALLY learn from the reward.....they learn from the RELEASE. Release of pressure. That is why you never quit until you get a good response. You do NOT have to pet, say good girl, give her a cookie or anything to teach her.
> When she stands still for a little bit(nobody knows this time) then untie, you rewarded her. She ONLY connects those two dots...still to untied.
> 
> Sounds like you are making progress....I still believe the larger INNER Self would benefit you.
> ...


Right, horses learn from the release. So last night when I untied her, that was her release. 

What do you mean, my larger inner self would benefit me?

Thats a great suggestion on when she tries to jump ahead of me when leading, I will change direction and it will be sharp 45 degree turns.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

About her coming into me when tied and im grooming here...

Would you still wallop her on the 2nd time and stick out the hoofpic end on the 3rd time if she was stepping away from you? Or only when into you?

Last night she would come into me and away as well. I moved her back to where she was on teh first time, then walloped her hard on the belly the 2nd time, then stuck out the end of my hoofpic on the 3rd time. But when shes coming into me, do I stick the hoofpic up near her hind or barrel? Cause she didnt really notice it and just kept going.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

I do not think you are using the hoofpic technique effectively.

It is not to hold up in her face (or anywhere) to show her or wave.

Hold it in your hand, apply finger pressure, increase finger pressure, then if still no response, push the point of the hoofpic into her. Never on her face. For backwards, it would be in your hand that was applying pressure to her chest.

Also just want to add that in my unprofessional opinion you are too hung up on the standing still when tied, in an unfamiliar place, tighter quarters and darker than she is accustomed to. And watching her like a hawk with a timer.

I feel this may have already caused some amount of set back in what you are trying to build, just 3 months into having her. I would have continued walking her around the place for a few days, being with her. And also starting other exercises in the same sessions.


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## ManicMini (May 4, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> Im not sure if he will understand. I guess will have to see what the trainer says but I will be back at it tonight with the same thing. No I wont be going 3 hours, not even 2, maybe an hour and sooner if she stands quiet. If she learned anything from last night, then she should be calmer tonight, am I right? Or is it too soon to expect to see improvements in just one tying?


If your BO doesn't understand your training, that's his problem not your's. OTOH, maybe having him listen to your trainer's logic behind the training methods you're utilizing might clear up any misunderstandings he has about it. 

I don't know about your individual horse but mine definitely tried undesirable behaviors a lot even with consistent corrections. After all, they worked to get his way for the past 10 years! Slowly he realized the outcome wasn't and would never be the one he wanted. That's when he finally quit displaying the unwanted behaviors. Once in a blue moon he'll try to push his boundaries and I instantly correct him. All in all, three months of consistent work, patience and leaving on good notes has really paid off!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

This second, and third time " trying" stuff may be caused by your "softness", or a small "inner" self. AKA, not being the leader. I know there are other ways to put this. I am familiar with it, because my 14 year old neighbor(at my barn most days) has the same effect on the horses. 

The reason a stick, or a whip, or a rope is used to move a horse is because it makes you "bigger", both on the outside, AND on the inside....the confident power comes from iNSIDE, and having a weapon, for lack of a better term, helps give you that confidence. 

You can be that bigger "self" without the "weapons". Training horses requires the TIMING to turn the bigger self on and off, as needed.

In catching a horse, you need small and quiet, right? You do not run around the pasture with the stick, expecting the horse to come up. 

In teaching the horse to stand still, or move out of your space, you need BIG and TOUGH...then small and quiet as a reward.

Have you ever tried softening your eyes? Stand close to a chain link fence. Look AT the links. See how the other side goes blurry? (Hard eyes) Now, without moving your eyes, make the chin link go blurry, and the other side focused. (Soft eyes)

Hard eyes are what predators use to focus on the kill, and what we use to move horses away. Soft eyes are what we use to draw horses in, and train them to do what we want as a release.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I recommend buying "Horse Control - The Young Horse" by Tom Roberts. The price on Amazon is up over $30 now, and it is not a long book. But if you think about what he says, I think you will be able to figure out what YOU think is best. He gives some techniques, but it is more about how one trains a horse than what one trains a horse.

My horses live in my backyard. All of them now know how to stand when tied. But Mia didn't, and I owned her for 7 years. I just didn't have any big trees or very strong things to tie her up to, so...I didn't. For 7 years, when I needed to groom her, give medicine, fly spray, tack up, etc - I held the lead rope with one hand and did stuff.

That doesn't mean I was "right". It just means you do what makes sense for where you are and what your goals are. I didn't show, wasn't at a "barn", and she could have her feet trimmed with the lead rope hanging from her neck...so why bother? The 3 horses I own now will all stand while tied, but I almost never do it. Just don't feel the need.

Probably the best single decision I made with her was to switch her to a curb bit. Almost everyone said I was wrong. Green horse, green rider, horse didn't neck rein...but she took to it like a duck to water. 

There are a lot of folks who apparently have gone 30-40 years using nothing but snaffle bits, and who swore I was going to turn her into an uncontrollable monster. They were full of poop. Given our goals and personalities, curb bits worked very well for us:








​ 
You are learning a fundamental fact of having a horse: 75% of people who own horses are experts, and they all know THE way. Almost all of that 75% also want to tell everyone else their secrets of horse riding and training.

The other 25% try different things with different horses and muddle through. When something works, great. If it doesn't, they try something else. Horses are not ruined by someone making a single mistake. If approach A or B isn't getting the results you want, then C or D or E might get you there.

It sounds like you have an open mind and care about your horse. Your odds of long term success are pretty good.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

anndankev said:


> I do not think you are using the hoofpic technique effectively.
> 
> It is not to hold up in her face (or anywhere) to show her or wave.
> 
> Hold it in your hand, apply finger pressure, increase finger pressure, then if still no response, push the point of the hoofpic into her. Never on her face. For backwards, it would be in your hand that was applying pressure to her chest.



OH! So I hold the hoofpic in my hand and as she comes into me, I first stick my finger out, then increase finger pressure, and if she doesnt stop coming into me, I push the end of the hoofpic into her?

I know not to put it near her face, I always thought I stand there near her hind with the hoofpic as shes coming in and wait for her to come into it.

Ive always noticed that you have to be very fast reacting. I cant even have the pic in my pocket, it has to be in my hand for me to have enough time to react cause its about a second that she takes to swing over to me.

ALso, would you also wallop and use the hoofpic method when she moves away from me? Obviously i would have to jump to the other side really quick if I were to do this.



> Also just want to add that in my unprofessional opinion you are too hung up on the standing still when tied, in an unfamiliar place, tighter quarters and darker than she is accustomed to. And watching her like a hawk with a timer.
> 
> I feel this may have already caused some amount of set back in what you are trying to build, just 3 months into having her. I would have continued walking her around the place for a few days, being with her. And also starting other exercises in the same sessions.


Well dont forget we have only been at this new barn for 6 days now, the old barn was bright and roomy so she didnt have much of an adjustment period to get comfortable standing tied in it. Few days. Ive worked with her standing tied in the old barn once and it was for an hour. That was about a month and a half ago.

I cant walk her around the place until she is out of her isolation paddock. The first couple days I was there, I spent time walking her around the property and the BO told me not to because shes still in isolation and the point of it is to keep her min. 60ft away from any other horse until she is put out in the field. He wasnt very pleased when he saw me walking her around the property on the first couple days.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AHH BSMS, you do keep bring stuff up that I just have to respond to
Yes, one can just ground tie a horse, hold that lead shank, wrap in around loose, etc, ect , etc, and get by, if you never really need to tie that horse, but that is still a huge hole in my books
Ever going to go on an over night trail ride, and hold your horse all night?
Even on a day ride, I like to take the bridle off, tie my horse up, and relax with my lunch and a beer(in summer) I might take an afternoon nap
When I was still working, and was having horses shod, my farrier could get them out of the corral, tie them and hot show them without a problem
I also believe in tying horses,when I haul them

On to that snaffle. Yes, I use as naffle to put basics on a young horse, but then ';graduate them to a curb. I certainly don't ride a western horse 'for years and years in a snaffle!
Can you skip that snaffle education, ans still have a horse that rides reasonably well? Sure, as I did just that, when I knew no better, when I bought a green two year old, when I first moved out west, and was advised to start the horse in a cowboy 'snaffle', ie a curb with a broken mouth piece and long shanks. Not only that, but in my ignorance, I used that bit without a curb strap, until someone corrected me. I rode that horse eventually in the Calgary Stampede parade, after riding him into the city, as I had no horse trailer
None of that changes the fact, that any good western training program is based on putting all the education on a young horse in a non leverage devise, be it a snaffle or a bosal, teaching him all the maneuvers he will need to know, and then graduating to that curb, when that horse is ready to be ridden off of the indirect rein, mainly off of seat and legs, one handed
Just because something can be done, does not make it ideal or correct
I probably have at least 10 different curb bits, and am not one to forever ride a western horse in a snaffle, but I do put all the basic education on that horse in a snaffle, so he ';graduates to a curb'
Yes, sometimes one needs to deviate from Ideal, as you did with Mia, and we all know the issues you faced with her-however, that still does not re -write basic concepts of correct western training
Many old Vaqueros , kept a snaffle tied on behind the saddle of their Spade bit horse, in case they had to school that horse
I posted an excellent resource to Evidence based horse training, using both science and lifetime observation of horses
In fact, I am going to Amazon to buy a copy

http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Based-Horsemanship-Stephen-Peters/dp/1600476856

Evidence-Based Horsemanship


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Yes, one can just ground tie a horse, hold that lead shank, wrap in around loose, etc, ect , etc, and get by, if you never really need to tie that horse, but that is still a huge hole in my books
Ever going to go on an over night trail ride, and hold your horse all night?_"

Have you ever tried READING my posts?

I wrote: "For 7 years, when I needed to groom her, give medicine, fly spray, tack up, etc - I held the lead rope with one hand and did stuff.

That doesn't mean I was "right". It just means you do what makes sense for where you are and what your goals are. I didn't show, wasn't at a "barn", and she could have her feet trimmed with the lead rope hanging from her neck...so why bother? The 3 horses I own now will all stand while tied, but I almost never do it. Just don't feel the need."​Let me repeat for emphasis: *Just don't feel the need.*

If you do, then train your horse for it. No big deal. But it cannot be too huge of a hole when I have 3 horses who will tie without problems, but I never do it...because I just don't feel any need to do so.

"_Can you skip that snaffle education, ans still have a horse that rides reasonably well?_"

Darn right you can. Did it. What has been done, by definition, can be done. Doesn't make it an essential - Bandit may be in a snaffle for the rest of his life. But if it has been done, then it can be done.

"_None of that changes the fact, that any good western training program is based on putting all the education on a young horse in a non leverage devise, be it a snaffle or a bosal, teaching him all the maneuvers he will need to know, and then graduating to that curb..._"

You define "good western training program" YOUR way. All I care about is the results - and the results with Mia were excellent. It was the best single decision I made during 7 years with her. But Bandit may NEVER go into a curb - and that wouldn't match your definition of a "good western training program" either.

*But I don't care*. I'm just not interested in "Smilie's Good Western Training Program". I don't show, don't do the same riding as you do, and don't have the same "needs" as you. The fact that my horses and I get along fine and are happy with each other is good enough for me.

"Just because something can be done, does not make it ideal or correct"

Ideal or correct *FOR WHAT*? I tend to agree with my farrier: "_If you and your horse come back healthy, and you both are smiling, what's wrong with that?_"

I slept on the ground a lot of times when young. I spent a lot of time in tents during my military career. Now? I don't go horse camping. I don't go camping WITHOUT horses. I'll be happy if I go the rest of my life spending every night in a nice bed, near a toilet and a place with hot & cold running water.

That is my point:"75% of people who own horses are experts, and they all know THE way. Almost all of that 75% also want to tell everyone else their secrets of horse riding and training.

The other 25% try different things with different horses and muddle through."​My horses and I are muddling through, and having a good time doing it. Chill. And the OP needs to relax and understand - there will ALWAYS be someone telling you what you MUST do with your horse. But only you and your horse can decide what is right for what you want to do.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Im not sure how tonight went. I ended up having to tie her for 3 hours. She wasnt perfect at the end but as time went on, she was settling down and was pawing less. She went a scretch of 8 mins where she just stood there and didnt do anything. I could have waited longer but it was getting late, I was freezing and I didnt want to push it so I untied her after she stood quiet for 8mins.
> 
> I rewarded her with rubs and scratches and told her good girl. She was antzy to eat so I brought her back to her paddock and on the way she tried to get ahead of me a couple times. I immediately backed her up 3 steps, stand and then walk on after I give her the que. The second time she was getting pushy and tried to push into me with her face so I immediately walloped her on the chest with the end of the lead (i didnt have my whip on me) and backed her up, then moved her hind in a few circles each direction. We ended up doing it for 15mins as after I would stop, get her to stand a distance from me, she wasnt paying attention to me so I would work her more. I ended up having to lunge her in a couple circles each direction and then I asked for her hind and got her to stand without her coming into me. I understand she was hungry but it took me 10mins just to get her to stand still until I wheeled her in by wheeling in the lead.
> 
> ...


Horses don't have a concept of time. Your BO may have a point.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> That is my point:"75% of people who own horses are experts, and they all know THE way. Almost all of that 75% also want to tell everyone else their secrets of horse riding and training.
> 
> The other 25% try different things with different horses and muddle through."​My horses and I are muddling through, and having a good time doing it. Chill. And the OP needs to relax and understand - there will ALWAYS be someone telling you what you MUST do with your horse. But only you and your horse can decide what is right for what you want to do.


:clap:


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

natisha said:


> Horses don't have a concept of time. Your BO may have a point.


Yes he may have a point but my concern is that what if my horse doesnt get better as she ages? She could get worse and I want to do everything to prevent that from happening. There is no proof that she will get better as she ages, so im taking precautionary measure.

I will bring her in tonight and tie her but I want to see if shes learned anything from last night and if he behaviour is any better cause I was really hard on her last night. If she acts like she did last night, I will up the ante and be even harder on her.

And yes I need to carry my whip with me everytime im with her for the next while.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes he may have a point but my concern is that what if my horse doesnt get better as she ages? She could get worse and I want to do everything to prevent that from happening. There is no proof that she will get better as she ages, so im taking precautionary measure.


This is an asinine comment. With _fair_ and _consistent_ handling, there is pretty much zero change of her getting worse as she ages. She'll become more mature and settle down, which will make training easier. The trick is not to throw too much at her now. 

Remember what I said about young horses being like children? It's completely true. Saying that you want to prevent your child from misbehaving later, so you're going to be extremely strict now and not let them make any mistakes will invariably result in a child who not only resents you, but finds every way to rebel possible. Same goes for a young horse. You overwhelm her and be too harsh with her now and she'll rebel and get worse. Now is the time for keeping _*any*_ training sessions short, sweet and to the point. She'll learn more and retain more that way.

Okay, so say you tie her for three hours again. She stands still for the first five minutes, but that isn't good enough for you, so you make her stand tied longer. She gets bored around the fifteen minute mark because she hasn't had a release from the pressure (i.e.-being untied and put away) and starts pawing, pacing, whatever. You get after her, which ups the pressure even more. How frustrated do you think she is at this point? She's bored and she's got constant pressure on her. She can't "win." So, she acts up more. She doesn't make the correlation that not-standing-still equates to having to be tied/have pressure on longer. All she knows is that there is no way out for her, so it doesn't really matter what she does at this point. You HAVE to reward the slightest try or pretty soon you won't get any try at all. If that means you untie her after she's stood quietly for three minutes, then that's what it means. You gave her the release she was looking for.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> This is an asinine comment. With _fair_ and _consistent_ handling, there is pretty much zero change of her getting worse as she ages. She'll become more mature and settle down, which will make training easier. The trick is not to throw too much at her now.
> 
> Remember what I said about young horses being like children? It's completely true. Saying that you want to prevent your child from misbehaving later, so you're going to be extremely strict now and not let them make any mistakes will invariably result in a child who not only resents you, but finds every way to rebel possible. Same goes for a young horse. You overwhelm her and be too harsh with her now and she'll rebel and get worse. Now is the time for keeping _*any*_ training sessions short, sweet and to the point. She'll learn more and retain more that way.


Im not saying I wont let her make any mistakes right now, I just want to teach her so as over time she will get better. I know its a long process and it will most likely take many years for her to become more mature, I just want to assess what I can now but without being overly harsh (which I dont think I am, am I?). Nothing wrong with teaching tying at the age of 4 is there?



> Okay, so say you tie her for three hours again. She stands still for the first five minutes, but that isn't good enough for you, so you make her stand tied longer. She gets bored around the fifteen minute mark because she hasn't had a release from the pressure (i.e.-being untied and put away) and starts pawing, pacing, whatever. You get after her, which ups the pressure even more. How frustrated do you think she is at this point? She's bored and she's got constant pressure on her. She can't "win." So, she acts up more. She doesn't make the correlation that not-standing-still equates to having to be tied/have pressure on longer. All she knows is that there is no way out for her, so it doesn't really matter what she does at this point. You HAVE to reward the slightest try or pretty soon you won't get any try at all. If that means you untie her after she's stood quietly for three minutes, then that's what it means. You gave her the release she was looking for.


Yes I agree and this is the plan I mocked up for me to do starting tonight. This is also why I untied her only after 8 mins of standing quietly last night. Do I see myself tying her for 3 hours again? Im not so sure if its the best idea right now.

Having her stand quietly for an hour, even 20mins was just not going to happen at this stage of her life.

I will tie her, groom, do whatever I need to do. Then leave her tied for a bit longer. If I leave her for 5mins and she stands quiet for that 5mins without pawing, I will untie her right away without carrying it on. Right now, I think 3 or 4mins of standing quietly is the sweet spot for her and to start off I will tie her for 5mins. 

Hopefully, that is enough time for her to reconize that shes being untied for standing quietly for 3 or 4mins and not because she pawed 4mins ago.

Im almost certain that this is the logic that the new trainer has in mind for teaching tying.

So basically you are saying that by me tying her for 3 hours last night, it was far too harsh on her?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

It was way too harsh on her. If you _know_ she can't stand still for more than a few minutes at a time, you're setting her up for failure by forcing her to stand tied longer than that. It's like making a child with a first-grade reading level read fifth-grade level books. Sure, they can muddle through, but they'll become extremely frustrated and resent reading by the time they're done. As her trainer, it is your responsibility to set her up for success.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> OH! So I hold the hoofpic in my hand and as *she comes into me*, I first stick my finger out, then increase finger pressure, and if she doesnt stop coming into me, I push the end of the hoofpic into her?
> 
> I know not to put it near her face, I always thought I stand there near her hind with the hoofpic as *shes coming in and wait for her to come into it*.
> 
> ...


No. That is not what I meant at all. 

Definitely not the plan for a horse that is moving into you, meaning you would have to move your feet to get out of her way. Neither for a horse that is swinging away from you to avoid/evade you. 

Those actions call for a quick consequence backed up by training sessions on the basics of ground handling. 
Such as Whoa, standing quietly on a line (even if only in-hand), moving off direct pressure (HQ and shoulder), and indirect pressure (this does not mean and is not the same as evading your touch). And this is where the hoofpick technique might be of help.

In the very early stages of moving off direct pressure. Say you touch her HQ in the right place, and she resists, as you increase pressure she pushes back on you, then apply the hoofpick (that you may be holding under the curve of your index finger). Shortly she will move off of lighter and lighter pressure and it will not be necessary to hold the hoofpick.

It is a bummer about the isolation, just hang out in front of her stall a little while. I've been on both sides of that.

Taking Dewey to a new barn and having him isolated at first. He was bummed, stood facing the corner. 

Then a new horse came in (another barn) and was not isolated. It came from out of state and had coggins and Vet Cert of Health. BUT, he had been exposed to strangles, just was not symptomatic yet. He got them, a resident horse caught them, all horses went thru a twice daily for 5 days round of shots. It was not fun.

So isolation is a good thing, just not a fun thing.

 


Hoofpic said:


> ... what if my horse doesnt get better as she ages? She could get worse and I want to do everything to prevent that ..., so im taking precautionary measure. ... .


Deal with the horse that is in front of you. Right now, in this moment.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> It was way too harsh on her. If you _know_ she can't stand still for more than a few minutes at a time, you're setting her up for failure by forcing her to stand tied longer than that. It's like making a child with a first-grade reading level read fifth-grade level books. Sure, they can muddle through, but they'll become extremely frustrated and resent reading by the time they're done. As her trainer, it is your responsibility to set her up for success.


I know horses dont have human emotions but hopefully last night didnt do more harm than good.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

anndankev said:


> No. That is not what I meant at all.
> 
> Definitely not the plan for a horse that is moving into you, meaning you would have to move your feet to get out of her way. Neither for a horse that is swinging away from you to avoid/evade you.
> 
> ...



Sorry, maybe its just me not thinking properly with all the traffic here at work.

So if Im grooming her, standing on her side and she moves into me for the 3rd time. Do I move when she moves into me before I stick out my finger for her to walk into?

I have done ground work with here where I move her HQ and also her forequarters. I usually use incoming motion of my hands as pressure to get her to move. She does really well with moving her HQ and forequarters/

Sorry I know you explained it but it was a lot for me to read and my mind isnt comprehending right now.

Yes the isolation sucks but not much I can do about it. The BO always wants to get to know the personality of the new horse before putting them in the field so that they can put them in the best possible situation who they feel they would gel with the most and risk horses getting injured.

I can understand his reasoning behind this. The good news is that my horse doesnt seem to be too bothered by it, she still has a couple large pasture paddocks with 2-3 horses in each around her. She calls out to them a lot though. And shes only in this isolation paddock for 1-2 more weeks.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I hope she gets to make fence friends for a while before being turned out with others or she'll could be learning to stand while you treat injuries.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

I really can't understand the reasoning behind people saying that a horse is too young to be tied that long etc etc. If my horse can't handle the minimal pressure it feels being tied to the fence or even when I'm handling it on the ground, how can I expect it to deal with the greatly increased pressure it experiences when I'm on it's back teaching it new things? Standing tied is the easiest, least stressful part of most horse's work. If the horse can't relax tied, it probably won't stand when you're in it either. Standing tied is like kindergarten stuff. It's one of the easiest things most horses will be taught. Even if that analogy of young horses being the same as children made any sense to me, the horse should still be educated on this particular lesson. 
The OPs horse is broke to ride-- if it can handle carrying a person around calmy, it can handle being tied.

Being tied up doesn't need to be a bad thing. Horses that have accepted it are often caught snoozing and look perfectly content. It's where my horses get to go after I'm done working with them. I want them to be able to relax there as time does not allow me to wait for each horse to cool out and dry off then walk them back to their pen before getting out the next one.
Most everyone has a need to tie their horses at times. And even if I never had a need for it in my regular day, i would still want to know that mine would handle it, in case there ever was a situation where i needed it. I would be very nervous to trailer a horse that didn't tie. What if there's an accident or other emergency where i need to unload horses and tie them somewhere. I'd rather have my horses prepared for as much as I can before I need it and it's not there. Honestly I feel that's what is most fair to the horse



Also OP try to stick with something long enough to see results. You dont want to confused the horse ir yourself with inconsistencies. I do think you're thought process is in the right place now though. Keep at it! You'll get it. Trial and error is the only way to figure this stuff out!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> I know horses dont have human emotions but hopefully last night didnt do more harm than good.


Let's look at it from her point of view. Do you think she had fun going into a place where she's uncomfortable & in her mind being picked on? 
She's not a spoiled horse who is there for retraining. She's a baby learning how to behave. Teach her "quit" or "ACK"- whatever you want as a sign of your displeasure.
If she gets squiggly use your hand on her halter, put her back where you want her, say "Stand", then praise. When she moves again say "ack" in a mean voice (or whatever you want to say), reposition again, then 'good girl' & a rub when she stands still. You may have to do this every 10 seconds. Soon she'll get that the 'Ack' will be followed by a correction. Again, she's not an older brat who would need much stronger corrections.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm afraid I haven't read through everything so apologies
Hoofpic - I think you have all the best intentions in the world but it worries me that you're overthinking things way too much.
I've missed where you've said how long your horse has been broke for but if the horse is properly broke and proven safe and reliable then you'd do better to ride than to keep boring it with endless ground work
Ground work has its place but a lot of it can be done alongside ridden work and general handling like grooming and bring your horse in/putting it back out
Tying horses for long periods 'just because' is unfair to the horse - if someone intends to go camping so need to leave the horse tied overnight then fine but how many actually do that?
When introducing anything new do it in 'small bites', that way the horse doesn't get bored and irritable and the time you do spend is 100% quality focus
Your horse challenges you? As long as you meet that challenge and win every time don't worry about it. They soon get fed up with doing it. I have a horse here that will still be throwing out the occasional challenge until the day she drops down dead but it always gets nipped in the bud, all the groundwork hours in the world wouldn't change the way she is, she's never bitten or kicked anyone, never refused to go where she's been pointed and you can leave her for as long as you like and just get on her and go.
Stop worrying yourself and stop micro-managing your horse


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> ... So if Im grooming her, standing on her side and she moves into me for the 3rd time. Do I move when she moves into me before I stick out my finger for her to walk into? ...





natisha said:


> ...Teach her "quit" or "ACK"- whatever you want as a sign of your displeasure.
> If she gets squiggly use your hand on her halter, put her back where you want her, say "Stand", then praise. When she moves again say "ack" in a mean voice (or whatever you want to say), reposition again, then 'good girl' & a rub when she stands still. You may have to do this every 10 seconds. Soon she'll get that the 'Ack' will be followed by a correction. Again, she's not an older brat who would need much stronger corrections.



The quick consequence while you are grooming her that I was speaking of is well described by natisha.


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

Just ride the darn horse!


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

^^^^^ YES!

I need a drink.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I'll be honest, I didn't read everything because I'm darn tired and there have been 100 posts since last I saw it. LOL

This is just coming from what I _have _read. 

It sounds to me like this horse is being (and probably has been for most of it's life) rather babied. Avoiding things and pu$$yfooting around in the hopes that she won't be spooked or upset is the perfect way to end up with a horse that is _constantly_ spooked and upset. Truthfully, asking her to stand completely still at this point and time is about like telling a bored 5 year old to sit quietly in a chair in the corner.

This is what I would do. Saddle up and put that horse to work. Ride her long enough that she gets tired. Every single horseman I've ever talked to that was worth their salt would tell you that a horse will learn better when their sides are heaving and they have sweat dripping. And, after having ridden a trained a lot of horses....I've discovered that they are completely right. Tired horses don't have that excess energy to expend on dancing around or worrying about their neighbor or snorting at the dust blowing by. They are able to focus on you because they are tired enough that those distractions are no longer that important to them.

You will never have a saddle that fits "perfectly" for more than a season. Horses will change from year to year and can even change drastically from season to season depending on their age, their work load, what they are eating, even the weather. If you get a saddle that fits her "perfectly" now, then you'll be looking for another one in 3 months after she's toned up from exercise and riding. Pick a saddle that allows her to move freely and leaves an even sweat pattern and go with it. If you notice her moving stiffly or you start getting dry spots, then find a different one.

Put her to work, not just walking a couple of rounds around the arena, but loping some circles, working spirals and serpentines at a trot, work on going over ground poles or opening/closing gates, do some rollbacks against the fence, work on her transitions and her softness to leg and rein and bit. If she doesn't do some of that stuff yet, then it's about time she learned. If you have access to decent trails, take her out on the trails and work on the same things around trees or through deadfalls.

Anything at all that will keep her mind engaged and make her body tired is a good thing.

Then, after she's worn out, leave her saddled, give her a drink, and tie her up. Leave her there while you go do random stuff around the barn. Don't just stand there and watch her like a worried mother hen. She needs to learn to stand tied quietly when you are out of sight.

Leave her there for however long it takes; be that 30 minutes or 5 hours. Wait until you see her standing there with her head down and her eyes half closed or she has a hind leg cocked. Don't run to check every couple of minutes, just glance at her when you are in a position to see her. Having her head down like she's about to go to sleep or standing with a cocked leg means that she's totally relaxed, content, and comfortable where she is. When you see that, call it a day. Untack and turn her out.


She is still young, yes, but she's not a baby and she shouldn't be treated like one. 4 is plenty old enough to be expected to act like a respectable member of the horse community.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Just saw her tonight and though its still early, i will say that she was significantly better tonight.

Took her into the barn and tied her. Brushed her and she only moved over twice. I didnt have to wallop her on the belly cause she didnt move twice in a row. She pawed a couple times within the first minute but i said quit and stop it in a stern voice. After that i took about 7 mins to finish brushing her and putting fly spray on and she was as still as a statue
She didnt paw, was quiet. After i finished, i put my stuff away and waited a few mins to pass, she was still quiet. So i told her i was going to untie her, good girl and i gave her scratches and rubs and untied her, brought her out and grazed her. I was very proud of her.

When i untied her, she licked and chewed. A sign she learned?

Hope to see the same tomorrow!


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Good job  Glad to hear she went well. Remember this feeling.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

How was her leading today?


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I was going to comment about your "poke her in the side the THiRD time"... But I think you have it figured out!! YAY for you!!!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

enh817 said:


> How was her leading today?


Right when I took her out of the paddock she was very good, head lowered while walking right by my side. After I finished brushing her and took her out of the barn, again she was very good. Took her grazing and again very good.

But later when I was finishing her up grazing, we were walking back and all of a sudden she heard another horse whiney and she started to speed up and look around and whineying. I immediately changed direction, sharp 45 degree turn to her right, then brought her back in a circle to where we were. Told her to stand but she was so focused on the horse calling out and not paying attention to me, until I gave her a firm stand. I had to ask 3 or 4 times, I shouldnt have to do this. When she wont stand I literally have to eat up all the slack in the lead and hold it by 6 inches from her chin. When she takes a step back, I watch how many she takes, and thats how many I make her take back. So if she takes one step, I back her one step etc.

When I need to apply pressure for her to stand, I give a sharp downward tug on her lead so she feels it. But I need another more aggresive way to send her the message cause sometimes she listens, other times she wont.

But I shouldnt have to keep telling her to stand. When a horse calls out, she shouldnt compeltely forget that shes walking by my side. 

When the horse called out, I had to correct her twice (once each time). Changed directions the first time, as well backed her up. And backed her up the second time as well, got her to stand (which is not easy when a horse calls because shes so focused on them), and then I got her to walk when I said walk on.

I need to address this asap. I can understand that she might be a bit lonely in the isolation paddock and wants a buddy, but still...


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## OoLaurenoO (Sep 23, 2014)

Don't expect perfection right away. - Not saying allow the behaviour and still correct it but she is going to make mistakes she is still learning.  It sounds like you made progress which is great, just keep building on it and like the others said, when your trainer comes out go for a ride.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I think, as others have said, you're overthinking things. 

There is no text book way to do things. 

The simple message is - when a horse tries to put pressure on you apply increasing pressure until the horse backs off. Kind of like arm wrestling. 

What increasing pressure means can be anything. To some people taking a step towards a horse can be enough pressure to make the horse back off. Others it's pressing with a finger, flicking with a rope. I don't ever use a hoof pick in to push a horse over. Mostly because I don't have one on me most of the time. And the point is to act immediately, if a hoof pick is too far use whatever you, wave your hands in the air, yell, I've even thrown a bucket at a horse to make it move away. The point is to just apply pressure until they yield to you. 

I think you need to work on projecting yourself. Horses read people, if you're not serious the horse won't respond. 

Like my boyfriend, he's 6'2, so a good six inches taller than me, broad, beard, deep voice he looks more the part of a predator, but he's scared of horses. He walks in a paddock and tries to scare them off they don't move. He can swing a rope, wave his arms, nothing will happen. My horse walks all over him. I can walk into a paddock and take one step to a horse I've never met before and it will jump back. I can chase them off just by walking towards them. It's because I project aggression. My horse takes me seriously. 

You need to build that confidence up in yourself because no matter how many people give you advice and no matter how many books your read the simple matter is that if you're not able to "out bluff" the horse then you're never really going to get respect. 

There really aren't specifics as to the right way or timing, these are just things you need to work out for yourself. To be honest I wouldn't recommend using a hoof pick for you, you don't need to focus on the tools you need rather than the way you come at the issue. You need to be quick, to the point, and also predict how the horse is going to react so you can keep safe. I worry that by focusing on specific tools such as carrot sticks, hoof picks, whips etc that you forget about the essential way you interact with the horse. 

As far as the tying goes.. I probably wouldn't have tied my horse for three hours. I'd probably just go out of my way to keep her tied up while doing barn chores, getting tack out etc.

Maybe you need to look at getting a trainer who can teach you these things on other horses, so you get more confident with your reactions.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

When she doesn't want to stand i would put her to work doing something difficult like backing around in a circle. Something that really takes some energy.. Just backing straight or makung her move forward in a circle may not be enough. I'd hustle her back around, not being overly agressive though, until i can tell she's had enough make her give me a few steps past that. Then offer her to stand. If she doesn't take the release, then back to work we go. Eventually she'll figure out that standing still is the better option. This is an important lesson for them to learn. If they won't take the release and stand when you offer it, then you can't use it as a reward when you're riding them, since they don't see it as that. I don't teach a command for stand, i just teach my horses that standing is a nice release from work so they'd better take the opportunity to relax when i offer it. 


Just remember it will take time to change her behavior. Just keep consistent with what you've been doing and you'll continue to see improvement. I make it my goal to improve something just 1% each day. If I can get that, then after 100 days my horse is 100% better. If i try to get that 100% improvement in one day, I'm likely to push too much and get in a confrontation with the horse and end up setting us back a bunch. Just look to see any improvement, each time you work with and consider it success no matter how small  You're doing great!


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Also, with things like the calling to other horses and such... That behavior clearly stems from insecurity, you recognized that yourself. You see this with studs all the time, and people often misread it and think it's studly disobedience, when it actually stems from a horse feeling very insecure and anxious. I've learned from handle studs and other very anxious horses that reprimanding them for calling out usually only makes it worse. Petting on them and making them feel comfortable and secure in your presence does so much more good. Let them know that they can be comfortable that they are safe with you, that they don't need to call out to others for reassurance. Some horses it's not an insecurity thing, it's just a lack of work ethic and their mind not staying with you. Those horses I'll just put to work whenever they get to whinnying. So you have to read the horse and figure out what is motivating the behavior. Knowing what you've said about your horse, i believe she's experiencing a lot if insecurities in a new place, so just keep that in mind when you're working with her and really go out of your way to rub on her and make her feel confident and happy with you when she's doing what you want. Once she gets there you'll have a lot less trouble with her not paying attention to you.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Seriously though. Please make sure you go back and re-read smrobs post a page or two back. They hit everything right on the head. 

You've got to ride your horse. And not just dinking around. Really ride her, get her sweaty. Do things! That's the great part about having a horse!! Working a cow, roping, jumping, trail rides, all that good stuff, that's so much more fun that just handling one on the ground. Your horse thinks so too! You guys will enjoy each other and get along so much better, if you have a job to do together. All this other stuff, this ground work stuff that you're so worried about right now (which is really nothing that's a very big deal at all. she's not dangerous, just distracted and anxious) will work its self out if you start actually using your horse  She'll be a lot more interested in what you've got going on, rather than the other horses, if you make it interesting to be with you. I think most of my horses grow to like coming out and working, because it's stimulating and they build confidence helping me do a job. 

I think the biggest reason a horse learns so well, once it's more tired, 'dripping sweat' as smrobs so aptly described it, is because your pressure and release mean so much more. Being put to work and corrected, carries more weight with the tired horse than it does one that's fresh and full of energy. Those moments of release and rest offered to the horse when he's done what you want, don't offer the same relief to one that's full of adrenaline, as they do for one that's huffing and puffing. 
That makes sense right?


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

enh817 said:


> ... just 1% each day. If I can get that, then after 100 days my horse is 100% better. ...





enh817 said:


> ... you have to read the horse ... insecurities in a new place, so just keep that in mind ... make her feel confident and happy with you ....





enh817 said:


> ... go back and re-read smrobs post a page or two back. ...


ENH, I agree with all the above.

Especially like the 1% / 100 day approach. I'll remember that one.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Personally I think the more relaxed calm horse you're seeing has nothing at all to do with you being firm with her - and more to do with the fact that she's settling in to her new surroundings and new horse buddies
I've bought lots of new horses over the years because I worked in horse dealing and boarding and I've seen it so many times I no longer worry about the 'first week' behaviour


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

OoLaurenoO said:


> Don't expect perfection right away. - Not saying allow the behaviour and still correct it but she is going to make mistakes she is still learning.  It sounds like you made progress which is great, just keep building on it and like the others said, when your trainer comes out go for a ride.


I think thats the most important thing, not to set her expectations too high because she still is learning. As long as she is making progressive improvement, im happy and I reward her every single time.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Saskia said:


> I think, as others have said, you're overthinking things.
> 
> There is no text book way to do things.
> 
> ...


I still have room for improvement but my confidence has gone up big time over the past couple months. 

When she doesnt listen I just need to keep upping the pressure until she does what I ask. My mind is firmly set on this and has been for awhile now, I do not stop until she does what I ask.

There have been times where I have been flustered that I got to a point where I would want to scream and raise my voice and blow up on her, but I know you never do that to a horse cause they will not respond to you at all when you yell at them and get mad at them.

I just dont want to cross that line and I think thats my biggest fear. That would explain why Ive always been too gentle on her in the first month having her and it wasnt until the 2nd month and on where I really started to up things and put increasing pressure on her when needed.

For instance, lets talk about her still choosing to rub her face on me, whether Im doing something with her and she doesnt like it or wants to stop and nudges me with a bit of force with her head on my arm.

Ive always just given her the bankhand right to the mizzle and right away. Her head always pops up, she gets it. Every single time, but yet she still does it.

One of the boarders at my old barn said that if I really want her to stop it for good, punch her in the face, as hard as I could. When his young 4 yr old gelding would do it to him, he would punch him, hard right in the muzzle. 

When his 4 yr old gelding would try to bite him, he would kick him as hard on his belly. Now for my horse trying to bite, I do plan on doing something much different for now on cause backing her, moving her hind in circles just isnt severe enough of a punishment. I will most likely resort to walloping her as hard as I can on her belly or if I have my whip, whip her hard on her butt. I also have a 1.5ft whip and I will carry that with me all the time.

So let me ask, she will rub her face on me at least once a day, she gets a swift backhand to the muzzle every single time. Do you think that I need to up the punishment and hit her harder for now on? The fact that she still does it just about every day makes me think my swift bank hand to her muzzle isnt a good enough punishment.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

smrobs said:


> I'll be honest, I didn't read everything because I'm darn tired and there have been 100 posts since last I saw it. LOL
> 
> This is just coming from what I _have _read.
> 
> ...


As usual, smrobs is on point and said it better than anyone else could. :clap: :loveshower:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_There have been times where I have been flustered that I got to a point where I would want to scream and raise my voice and blow up on her, but I know you never do that to a horse cause they will not respond to you at all when you yell at them and get mad at them_."

I won't say it is effective training, but it won't mentally or emotionally scar them either. Horses seem to understand someone having a bad day. If it is the exception instead of the rule, they don't seem to worry much about it. I've gotten so ****ed that I've thrown rocks at Mia - yet if something was going wrong, Mia would run to me to make things better. Even after totally blowing my temper, the next day was the next day and Mia would be like, "Are you feeling better now? Good...what are we going to do today?"

I'm NOT saying it is a good thing, just that horses don't stress over an occasional bad day.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

bsms said:


> "_There have been times where I have been flustered that I got to a point where I would want to scream and raise my voice and blow up on her, but I know you never do that to a horse cause they will not respond to you at all when you yell at them and get mad at them_."
> 
> I won't say it is effective training, but it won't mentally or emotionally scar them either. Horses seem to understand someone having a bad day. If it is the exception instead of the rule, they don't seem to worry much about it. I've gotten so ****ed that I've thrown rocks at Mia - yet if something was going wrong, Mia would run to me to make things better. Even after totally blowing my temper, the next day was the next day and Mia would be like, "Are you feeling better now? Good...what are we going to do today?"
> 
> I'm NOT saying it is a good thing, just that horses don't stress over an occasional bad day.


Oh ok.

But horses are a mirror image of yourself. So if I were to get mad at her, it would make her upset and do the same to me no?

Thankfully Im very good for controlling my temper and have never yelled at her, I just become more stern in my voice like I really mean it and that of course means my voice goes up but not to the point of yelling.

And I have taken in your previous advice in your last post, dont worry. I have it remembered and stored in my mind.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've had a few horses that wanted to rub on me - its not an aggressive act, just one they've learnt, horses rub against each other, its a sign that they trust and like each others presence. 
It isn't acceptable for a horse to do it with people but I never 'backhand' a horse for doing it, the only time I will hit a horse on the face is if its trying to bite me and even then I'd rather hit it on the neck to deflect it
When your horse tries to rub against you just push her head firmly away and say 'No' in your 'mean voice'
Hitting horses on the face just makes them headshy, you don't want a horse that's throwing its head in the air every time you raise your hand because it thinks its going to get slapped do you?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I've had a few horses that wanted to rub on me - its not an aggressive act, just one they've learnt, horses rub against each other, its a sign that they trust and like each others presence.
> It isn't acceptable for a horse to do it with people but I never 'backhand' a horse for doing it, the only time I will hit a horse on the face is if its trying to bite me and even then I'd rather hit it on the neck to deflect it
> When your horse tries to rub against you just push her head firmly away and say 'No' in your 'mean voice'
> Hitting horses on the face just makes them headshy, you don't want a horse that's throwing its head in the air every time you raise your hand because it thinks its going to get slapped do you?


I was told that smacking them on the muzzle wont make them headshy, but anywhere else on the head will.

I know this was the method all my past trainers used when my horse would try to get in their space. Im not talking a full force back hand but just a quick flick of the back of your hand to their muzzle.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

enh817 said:


> Seriously though. Please make sure you go back and re-read smrobs post a page or two back. They hit everything right on the head.
> 
> You've got to ride your horse. And not just dinking around. Really ride her, get her sweaty. Do things! That's the great part about having a horse!! Working a cow, roping, jumping, trail rides, all that good stuff, that's so much more fun that just handling one on the ground. Your horse thinks so too! You guys will enjoy each other and get along so much better, if you have a job to do together. All this other stuff, this ground work stuff that you're so worried about right now (which is really nothing that's a very big deal at all. she's not dangerous, just distracted and anxious) will work its self out if you start actually using your horse  She'll be a lot more interested in what you've got going on, rather than the other horses, if you make it interesting to be with you. I think most of my horses grow to like coming out and working, because it's stimulating and they build confidence helping me do a job.
> 
> ...


Yes this makes sense and I plan on doing it tomorow but can this all be done in a 15-20 minute riding session?

I wont be trotting on her because I dont have much experience trotting on a horses back. Because she hasnt been ridden for 3 months, I was hoping to ease her back in but what can I do to get her sweaty that isnt trotting? im sure with my trainer there she could give me good direction on getting her to trot with me on her back. 

Remember I need to work on my balance first (as well as hers), since she hasnt been ridden in 3 months and I havent ridden since March. 

Regarding the saddle, I was planning on going to pick up a few tonight and see how they fit. If my horse is going to outgrow it in 3 months, then Im really second guessing if I should be buying a saddle. Perhaps I should use one of the barns lesson horse saddles. They have a bunch.

But really, should I be expecting to trade in and buy new saddles every 3 months? Even a year seems like a lot to me especially for something so expensive.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Even if you're not yelling and screaming, your body language changes drastically when you're upset. Horses are consummate readers of body language. They know what we're feeling, almost before we know. There have been times when my gelding has been super cautious and gentle around me when I've been in a bad or sad mood, even though I did nothing different with him, and he would respond to the correction I was about to give before I'd actually given it.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes this makes sense and I plan on doing it tomorow but can this all be done in a 15-20 minute riding session?
> 
> I wont be trotting on her because I dont have much experience trotting on a horses back. Because she hasnt been ridden for 3 months, I was hoping to ease her back in but what can I do to get her sweaty that isnt trotting? im sure with my trainer there she could give me good direction on getting her to trot with me on her back.
> 
> ...


I think you need to take some lessons on a steady lesson horse to get your "sea legs" back before riding a forward, green horse, IMPO. There's a reason they say "green plus green equals black and blue." If you're that worried about _your_ balance at the trot, you're not going to be able to give her the direction she needs to get herself balanced and moving well.

As for the saddle, that's why we're saying "good enough" will work for now. As long as it isn't ridiculously too wide or too narrow, there's no reason not to use a saddle that is "close enough" on your horse. Saddles hold their value well. Reselling in a year, unless there is significant damage to the saddle, you'll probably get what you paid for it, or close. I've resold saddles for close to or more than I bought them for, depending on if I made any improvements to them or included things with them that didn't come with it when I bought it.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I think you need to take some lessons on a steady lesson horse to get your "sea legs" back before riding a forward, green horse, IMPO. There's a reason they say "green plus green equals black and blue." If you're that worried about _your_ balance at the trot, you're not going to be able to give her the direction she needs to get herself balanced and moving well.


Yes I will be doing lessons on a school horse first but dont you think it would still be beneficial for me to ride her tomorrow? 



> As for the saddle, that's why we're saying "good enough" will work for now. As long as it isn't ridiculously too wide or too narrow, there's no reason not to use a saddle that is "close enough" on your horse. Saddles hold their value well. Reselling in a year, unless there is significant damage to the saddle, you'll probably get what you paid for it, or close. I've resold saddles for close to or more than I bought them for, depending on if I made any improvements to them or included things with them that didn't come with it when I bought it.


Okay. Im still going to take a look at saddles tonight but if I dont find anything that suits me at this place, then using one of the barns lesson saddles shouldnt be an issue. But it sounds like this place has saddles to suit me.

If I did put off on me buying a saddle for now and just used the barns, my main reason would be to postpone the cost of it.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Is it possible for you to have your trainer ride the horse first for a bit? And then you get on? I'd be nervous aboit having a green rider get on a green horse that has been sitting for months. She's probably really fresh. If the trainer can get on her first and eork her down some before you get on. That would also give the trainer the opportunity to see what the horse's deal is and where she might have holes in her training so that she can better instruct you how to ride your horse.


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## liltuktuk (Dec 16, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Oh ok.
> 
> But horses are a mirror image of yourself. So if I were to get mad at her, it would make her upset and do the same to me no?
> 
> ...


You're blowing this how the horse will feel towards you thing out of proportion. Getting frustrated and yelling at your horse isn't going to make her dislike you or upset her. Sure she might get upset for a second because she probably doesn't understand what you want, but she'll have forgotten it by the time you put her out in her paddock. With few exceptions, horses don't hold grudges.

Example, not too long after I got my mare who is headstrong and opinionated, we had a bad ride. I had already been having a bad day and was looking forward to a relaxing ride, she was wound up and was spooking at random things and being a pill. I got mad, I yelled, I hit her, smacked her a good one with the whip, etc. I got off and let her loose in the arena while I sat down on the mounting block to cool off. One would think she would want nothing to do with me at this point right? After a few minutes of me taking deep breaths, when I started to relax, she walked right up to me and put her head in my lap. I burst into tears right there and we spent 10 minutes just sitting like that.

So what I'm trying to say is, she'll realize when you're having a bad day. My mare knows when I just need her to buckle down and get out and run. We'll hit the trail and she'll just book it until she feels me relax. She also can tell when I just want to relax and take a lazy meander. All of this comes from spending time with her, weather it be just grooming, going out for a ride, or learning something new. She knows what my body language means and how I'm feeling everyday. In return I can also tell when she is off and not quite right. 

My horses don't have specific jobs, their job is to let me ride them for a few hours a day and to be my partner in whatever I ask them to do. That takes trust and understanding, they trust me to be a fair and consistent leader, feed them, and provide for their needs. I trust them to be cooperative in the sense of following my commands, but also to use their innate senses to protect both of us when we're working together. Everyone, human and animal, has bad days. You just have to learn to roll with it. 

I do agree with everyone else on the riding thing. Your mare needs to be ridden until she's tired and she can focus on her training. If you're not comfortable doing this, then you need to find someone to do it for you who is. I have two horses that have bundles of energy, on top of being out 24/7, if they weren't getting worked a few times a week I would not blame them for being fidgety when tied or not being able to concentrate. Horses were born to move.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> I was told that smacking them on the muzzle wont make them headshy, but anywhere else on the head will.
> 
> I know this was the method all my past trainers used when my horse would try to get in their space. Im not talking a full force back hand but just a quick flick of the back of your hand to their muzzle.


Any where else on the head may break your hand..... It is much better to remind yourself to never hit your horse with your hand. 

I hold up whatever brush or comb I am using...they "run" into it, and this , combined with a glare, or sometimes ack, or hey! Result on them not usually trying again.

Horses do not hold anything against us. They respond to a leader type personality who can apply and release pressure at the appropriate time for their personality...and they are ALL different...some tough, some sensitive, some co dependent, some independent.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The fact that your trainers used a slap on the muzzle to warn your horse off rubbing against you and you are now doing the same and your horse is still trying to rub against you should be telling you that the method isn't working
If I'm going to hit a horse for doing something wrong then one really good hard whack on the shoulder with a stick combined with a verbal reminder is worth more than all the taps on its nose with the back of your hand


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> I still have room for improvement but my confidence has gone up big time over the past couple months.
> 
> that can only be a good thing!
> 
> ...


i think a lot of the reason she keeps,repeating her sins is because you lack the timing, experience and confidence. 

A teacher has to be totally confident not only mentally but also in body language, the slightest doubt and they will sense it and play on it. 
I am sure that you had teachers at school that fellow pupils played up and those that the same pupils would never dream of messing around. Those teachers both had the same type of training the difference would be that one was confident of their class control and the other wasn't. One would correct misbehaviour the second it started, often with just a look or a single word, the other would try to regain control after it had kicked off. 
Ask those pupils who they thought was the better teacher and they would say the strict one.

I think this mare needs working hard before you get on her tacked up and if your trainer would ride her first it would be better still. 

I have not said anything to be mean or nasty, I appreciate how hard you are trying and sincerely wish you all the best things with your mare.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

enh817 said:


> Is it possible for you to have your trainer ride the horse first for a bit? And then you get on? I'd be nervous aboit having a green rider get on a green horse that has been sitting for months. She's probably really fresh. If the trainer can get on her first and eork her down some before you get on. That would also give the trainer the opportunity to see what the horse's deal is and where she might have holes in her training so that she can better instruct you how to ride your horse.


Yes I can do that, how long do you think my trainer should ride her before me?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> Any where else on the head may break your hand..... It is much better to remind yourself to never hit your horse with your hand.
> 
> I hold up whatever brush or comb I am using...they "run" into it, and this , combined with a glare, or sometimes ack, or hey! Result on them not usually trying again.
> 
> Horses do not hold anything against us. They respond to a leader type personality who can apply and release pressure at the appropriate time for their personality...and they are ALL different...some tough, some sensitive, some co dependent, some independent.


And this would warrant me carrying my 1.5ft stick around correct? Its one that people use when they ride but i like the length and it can be an alternative to my hand because I should be able to hit harder and not be in pain after. Well its more of a whip than a stick since it has the same end as my lunge whip.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I can do that, how long do you think my trainer should ride her before me?


Until your trainer thinks she's ready for you to get up on. Your trainer should be familiar enough with your riding abilities to gauge if/when your horse is ready for you.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

jaydee said:


> The fact that your trainers used a slap on the muzzle to warn your horse off rubbing against you and you are now doing the same and your horse is still trying to rub against you should be telling you that the method isn't working
> If I'm going to hit a horse for doing something wrong then one really good hard whack on the shoulder with a stick combined with a verbal reminder is worth more than all the taps on its nose with the back of your hand


What about hitting her with the whip on the neck as opposed to the shoulder? But yes you are right, I should stop wacking her on her muzzle for when she rubs against me cause its clearly not working. I figured that it was working (cause it would immediately get her attention), but just that she chooses to test me the day after again and again.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I can do that, how long do you think my trainer should ride her before me?


I can't say without being there. If the mare rides around relaxed and deals with everything fine, 5 minutes. IF the horse has a lot of issues under saddle that I felt like you weren't ready to handle, then maybe 5 rides or more, before I'd feel comfortable with you getting on. 
At this point, the trainer will just need to get on and test her to see where she's at. Even if she was pretty well broke at one point, she's been sitting getting fresh for 3 months (i believe you said). 
Hopefully your trainer is knowledgeable and experienced enough to make a sound judgement call about whether the horse is safe for you to ride. Once you and the trainer get the horse riding again, I would advise against giving her more than a day or two off at a time, for a while, until you and her are both comfortable. Even the gentlest horse can pull out some tricks when they're feeling fresh. Plus I think sometimes horses get used to not having to work when they're given extended time off (especially those who haven't developed a good work ethic) and can sometimes be resentful about having to go back to work all of a sudden. And you can't really blame them either. Sure, giving them a break can be beneficial at times, but we have to be fair with our expectations when bringing them back after time off. It's probably not fair to expect an anxious 4 year old to come back and go right to work safely enough to carry a novice rider. Like I said, hopefully your trainer is able to help you through this.
Which I guess brings us back to the original question asked at the start of the thread: I know I told you, you needed to ride you horse, and you do. But you do need to keep yourself safe too. Now that more details have come out about your experience and the horse's situation, I don't see it as a matter of respect, simply a matter of a green horse that is probably very fresh and a green rider who may not have the skills yet to handle it. I definitely think you need someone with more experience to get on the horse first, assess her and work her down some, and decide if it's safe for you to climb on. Don't let this get you worried though. She may be absolutely fine. I ride a 3 year old that is quite gentle and is the same horse whether I ride her twice a day, or once in a few weeks. It just depends on the horse and the quality of education she's had in her life.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I will hit a horse on the neck, the shoulder, the barrel, the butt, where ever the whip or my hand or brush or....whatever is handy lands. I reserve the the slap to the face or letting them run their face into my stick for dangerous behaviors like biting or trying to run over me. And when I say run over, I mean just that RUN over me, not just walking and wandering or drifting. Running over me will get them slapped all the way down to TX and I don't care where it lands on the face or head. Same for biting, though I do aim for the soft muzzle when they do that. I rarely have to repeat the correction because when I go for the head or face, I mean business and I mean it right this minute. It's an explosive, "You are going to die right now!" kind of correction. Anything else gets the ask, tell, demand approach rather than an explosion. And just FYI, there's nothing I hate worse than to see someone belly kick a horse. I just can't stand it, don't do it and won't allow it on my place, I feel that strongly about it. I know a lot of people do it, and it's their horse, their business, but I can't stand it. 

At this point with your mare and the rubbing of the face on you, I would stay out of her space and just make myself unavailable to her. If SHE comes into your space then she would get corrected for encroaching in the space, ask, tell, and demand (at that point, you are really demanding with a whip, a carrot stick, a hoof pick, whatever it takes to get the message across.).


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

enh817 said:


> I can't say without being there. If the mare rides around relaxed and deals with everything fine, 5 minutes. IF the horse has a lot of issues under saddle that I felt like you weren't ready to handle, then maybe 5 rides or more, before I'd feel comfortable with you getting on.
> At this point, the trainer will just need to get on and test her to see where she's at. Even if she was pretty well broke at one point, she's been sitting getting fresh for 3 months (i believe you said).
> Hopefully your trainer is knowledgeable and experienced enough to make a sound judgement call about whether the horse is safe for you to ride. Once you and the trainer get the horse riding again, I would advise against giving her more than a day or two off at a time, for a while, until you and her are both comfortable. Even the gentlest horse can pull out some tricks when they're feeling fresh. Plus I think sometimes horses get used to not having to work when they're given extended time off (especially those who haven't developed a good work ethic) and can sometimes be resentful about having to go back to work all of a sudden. And you can't really blame them either. Sure, giving them a break can be beneficial at times, but we have to be fair with our expectations when bringing them back after time off. It's probably not fair to expect an anxious 4 year old to come back and go right to work safely enough to carry a novice rider. Like I said, hopefully your trainer is able to help you through this.
> Which I guess brings us back to the original question asked at the start of the thread: I know I told you, you needed to ride you horse, and you do. But you do need to keep yourself safe too. Now that more details have come out about your experience and the horse's situation, I don't see it as a matter of respect, simply a matter of a green horse that is probably very fresh and a green rider who may not have the skills yet to handle it. I definitely think you need someone with more experience to get on the horse first, assess her and work her down some, and decide if it's safe for you to climb on. Don't let this get you worried though. She may be absolutely fine. I ride a 3 year old that is quite gentle and is the same horse whether I ride her twice a day, or once in a few weeks. It just depends on the horse and the quality of education she's had in her life.


I ran it by my trainer just now and waiting for her response. I said for her to ride her tomorrow to see where she is at in her training, assess, and go from there.

I know her approach (just from talking last week) is that she wants to ease her back into riding and having weight on her back again. 

Another thing I need to keep in mind is that I dont want to push her too hard, too soon cause she was lame 3 months ago on her front left shoulder from her old saddle being too tight and really caused her left wither to tighten up. I had to get 2 massage sessions done with red light and after the 2nd one it completely freed up her left side withers and she wasnt lame anymore. Though her lameness was a sutle lameness (1/5 according the vet in terms of severity), she was still lame and this is something I really want to avoid happening again if I can.

We are lunging her for maybe 10mins before riding and I think its going to be me doing it so she can critique me. I think its best if I do it.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> i think a lot of the reason she keeps,repeating her sins is because you lack the timing, experience and confidence.
> 
> A teacher has to be totally confident not only mentally but also in body language, the slightest doubt and they will sense it and play on it.
> I am sure that you had teachers at school that fellow pupils played up and those that the same pupils would never dream of messing around. Those teachers both had the same type of training the difference would be that one was confident of their class control and the other wasn't. One would correct misbehaviour the second it started, often with just a look or a single word, the other would try to regain control after it had kicked off.
> ...


I know timing is everything and was told you have 3 seconds to correct a horse after they did the bad behaviour or it woudl be pointless. I always lay my punishment right away, and if I cant then within 2 seconds. If I miss this time frame, I dont go ahead with it

Im going to make those adjustments tonight. When she puts her head into me, I will hit her on the shoulder with the whip. When she tries to bite I will do the same. Same with backing, if I need to wave or hit her with the whip to get her out of my space right that second I will do it.

I think carrying the stick with me all the time should really help.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> What about hitting her with the whip on the neck as opposed to the shoulder? But yes you are right, I should stop wacking her on her muzzle for when she rubs against me cause its clearly not working. I figured that it was working (cause it would immediately get her attention), but just that she chooses to test me the day after again and again.


I hit the shoulder in preference to the neck but usually find that one good whack is enough - after that its just a matter of using a verbal cue to remind them if they look as if they're thinking about it
I want a horse to respect me but I don't want a horse that's terrified of me - I'm not another horse, I'm the human that's going to have to catch it and handle it and ride it every time I want to do those things. Fear = tension.
Horses will forgive you if you're firm but you also have to be fair.
After we had a very aggressive Arabian horse gelded he still retained his bad habits of kicking and biting for a while but one good whack was enough to make him reconsider his place in our pecking order but for a long time afterwards I still carried that stick (a sawn off wooden broom handle) with me when I was handling with him and would lean it against the wall in his sight when grooming him
Work was the best cure for him though.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I will confess I once belly kicked my mare. I was wearing sneakers. She barely noticed. I limped for 2 weeks.

Sometimes the horse wins a round - without trying! :thumbsup:


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

I just want to clear a few things up.
Just to make sure there's no misconceptions, I do not just go around kicking horses in the belly :lol: Nor was I/would I suggest it to the OP. Other people may not like the idea, and that's fine. There's plenty of *shutter*worthy stuff I see people doing to their horses, all the time, that I would never do with a horse. 

I don't want to be misunderstood. Kicking a horse in the belly is a very strong tool, in my tool bag, but I only pull it out when the situation warrants it. We get a lot of horses with ingrained dangerous behaviors that they have been using to evade pressure for quite some time. These horses are often pretty dull and are hard to teach because uneducated people in their life have confused the F out of them. I would not do this to a baby or a very sensitive horse. But in a dire situation it makes things pretty black and white. 

I'll use it in times when I'm in immediate danger (ex - in a stall trying get a horse out and he's about to have me pinned up against the wall) and/or I really need the behavior to quit happening before the horse seriously injures me or another person (ex - truly aggressive biting or kicking, flopping over and throwing themselves down). I firmly believe that a human's health and well being is more important than the horses. I'm sorry if that ruffles feathers, but I will not be responsible for someone getting hurt or worse, because I didn't do my job well enough to get rid of those very dangerous behaviors. I will escalate my force to whatever level necessary to make sure the horse understands that the particular behavior is not one of the options for getting away from pressure. If a horse puts me in enough danger to warrant me kicking him in the belly, I'm past the point of worry about him and onto worrying about the safety of everyone who comes into contact with him. It's unfortunate that almost 100% of the time it's people who have caused dangerous behaviors to escalate to such a point. 

I have used other methods of very intense correction in the past, but the belly kicking is what works best for me. I'm in a safer spot at their side, than I am if I'm going for their face and get too close - I do not want to be struck by a front foot. I obviously do not want to get kicked either, and they definitely jump away from me when I get them. I am not strong enough to make enough of an impact on most of those horses if I try to whip them in their butt or shoulder. They are often pretty dull in those spots where people have repeatedly pestered them their whole life. The belly is usually fresh. And I will admit, I have blued two horses eyes before. One was inadvertent, the end of my lead rope got him when I was untying him. But the other, happened when I stupidly whacked a horse across the face, because he was agressively running me over. I had done that before with horses and it was fine, because I didn't miss. But I decided there was too big a margin of error. I will use my open hand to smack a horses cheek with my palm, if he tries to shove into me, but I find that is only enough pressure for the ones that are just uneducated or rude. The downright dangerous or aggressive ones, I need more than that. I don't want to be dealing with behavior like that again. I try to get in them really hard once and then quickly get over it and go one about my business. 
Clear, concise, very black and white. 

I've never done any harm to a horses belly. I really don't think I'm strong enough. I've had horses get edemas/hematomas from getting kicked by other horses, and even had one that caused a big old pocket of fluid on his belly kicking at flies. I've never so much as left a mark kicking them. I think it just knocks the air out of them and surprises them, esp if they've never had it done to them before. 

I'm not suggesting that everyone go out and starting kicking horses in the belly, nor am I even expecting to necessarily change anyone's opinion. Just perhaps give another perspective. I know I originally kind of mentioned it in jest, but it I do view it as a legitimate tool in serious situations. I don't want people to think I'm cruel and abusive, because I really don't feel it is such, if used properly... just like anything else we do with our horses. 


And they lived happily ever after the end


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW, I don't particularly object to someone kicking a horse in the belly. I just wouldn't recommend doing it in sneakers...but then, I haven't worn sneakers around a horse in ages. But even in cowboy boots, I suspect most kicks I could give wouldn't have enough umphh! behind them to do much more than startle a horse. If the horse is doing something dangerous or that will lead to a dangerous situation, whatever is at hand (or foot) may have to make do.

I've had horses knock me flat without even realizing I was there. I think being near a horse can be more dangerous than being on a horse. I'd rather establish firm boundaries than worry if my fist, elbow or toe is going to hurt my horse. To date, I've never made a mark on them! But they have left me spending an evening in a hot tub of water, popping ibuprofen and wondering what idiot insisted on getting horses!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I think we may be onto something here as far as tying goes. She was again very good tonight, except compared to last night (where she was alone), there was a couple other horses in the barn tonight. I first let her loose in the arena to get her bucks and kicks out, she had quite a bit to let out. 

I feel bad cause everytime we are in the arena now with her on a lead, she automatically thinks im going to lunge her so she will always just start going in a circle on her own. I then have to stop her right away but once I get her to stand, she will go off again. Is this a sign that Ive done too much lunging with her?

I tied her for maybe 15mins after, had to put fly spray on and she was very good! Same thing as last night, only moved twice I was putting fly spray on her - she only moved away from me and not towards me. Maybe she got the message from Wed when I would wallop her real hard on the belly when she moved into me for the 2nd time?

She still pawed a couple times but stopped when I said quit it/stop it.


Is it a bad thing when your horse nickers or whineys for you when you leave out of their sight? I had to step out for maybe 3mins on two occasions and one of the other members inside was watching her for me. She said that she was nickering for me each time I left.

When I came back in she was nickering at me. She said she pawed once when I was gone but she told her stop and she stopped. 

I untied her a few minutes later and once again told her good girl and gave her rubs and scratches before untying her so that she knew what she did was the right thing.

She didnt try to rub her face against me today yay! I think when I first got there and went in to say hi, she came up and she was thinking about doing it but didnt do it. I was pleased to see that. She even gave me a big whiney when I got there, shes never done that before. She usually nickers.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

If the trainer rides her tomorrow and says she pushes her a bit, makes her sweat, tired etc. Do you think the positive results gained from it in terms of my horses adjusted attitude and mindset, that it will carry over to me even though I didnt ride her? Or will my horse only direct those results to the trainer now that she knows who rode her? See what im getting at here?


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

bsms said:


> I've had horses knock me flat without even realizing I was there. I think being near a horse can be more dangerous than being on a horse. I'd rather establish firm boundaries than worry if my fist, elbow or toe is going to hurt my horse. To date, I've never made a mark on them! But they have left me spending an evening in a hot tub of water, popping ibuprofen and wondering what idiot insisted on getting horses!




And more than once, bsms. At times I have thought that goldfish might be a nice, safe hobby.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> If the trainer rides her tomorrow and says she pushes her a bit, makes her sweat, tired etc. Do you think the positive results gained from it in terms of my horses adjusted attitude and mindset, that it will carry over to me even though I didnt ride her? Or will my horse only direct those results to the trainer now that she knows who rode her? See what im getting at here?


I think some horses can tell who's riding them, but I think most horses can't. What they can notice is if the person on their back seems confident and consistent or if they seem timid and unsure. They can definitely react differently to different riding styles and ability, but I think if two people rode the same, even if the people looked completely different, I don't think the horse really thinks about it. 

I would say, in general, yes, what your trainer does will carry over to you riding, BUT only if you continue with the same corrections that the trainer used, etc etc. If you get on and start reinforcing undesired behavior, you can undo any work the trainer might have done trying to fix an issue.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

enh817 said:


> Hoofpic said:
> 
> 
> > If the trainer rides her tomorrow and says she pushes her a bit, makes her sweat, tired etc. Do you think the positive results gained from it in terms of my horses adjusted attitude and mindset, that it will carry over to me even though I didnt ride her? Or will my horse only direct those results to the trainer now that she knows who rode her? See what im getting at here?
> ...


Absolutely correct, horses can tell. My friend can get my horse to canter as much as she wants but as soon as I get on someone who has been asking him for more whoa then go he refuses and starts to get crabby.. But we are we are working on it.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

enh817 said:


> I think some horses can tell who's riding them, but I think most horses can't. What they can notice is if the person on their back seems confident and consistent or if they seem timid and unsure. They can definitely react differently to different riding styles and ability, but I think if two people rode the same, even if the people looked completely different, I don't think the horse really thinks about it.
> 
> I would say, in general, yes, what your trainer does will carry over to you riding, BUT only if you continue with the same corrections that the trainer used, etc etc. If you get on and start reinforcing undesired behavior, you can undo any work the trainer might have done trying to fix an issue.


Ok. So people on here are saying that if we work her today, get her sweating, tie her after and let her relax atfer, that it will perhaps get her to stand tied easier and free her mind up. Do you think this will carry over to when Im just handling her?

Is this going to have a similar effect to when my previous trainer and I round penned her for the very first time? Cause I saw a MUCH different horse even the day after and on from just round penning her once.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Once a horse "gets it," it doesn't take long for it to stick. She'll realize that it's MUCH easier to stand still tied and relax than it is to be constantly anxious and worried (like others have said, part of that is _your_ anxiety and worry rubbing off on her). 

This isn't the first time it's been said, but you need to relax. Don't worry so much about "what if" and "what will happen." That just increases your anxiety and worry and rubs off on your horse. 

When I go out and work with my gelding, I never have a plan. I never think "Today I am going to accomplish X, Y, and Z, and we aren't quitting until I do." I don't worry about "How is he going to act?" I go out, grab him from turnout, then see where the day takes us. For example, my fiance and I went out to pay my board and I wanted to do some round pen work with Aires since he hadn't been worked in a while. I got him in the round pen and he was more interested in eating the weeds and grass my fiance was trying to feed him through the fence. Since my fiance was completely intimidated by Aires' size (he's 17hh), I saw it as an opportunity to get my fiance involved. So, I coaxed him into the round pen and I had him spend some time just grooming Aires while I chilled on the mounting block. By the time we decided to leave, Aires (who doesn't like most men) and my fiance (who has not been around horses much at all) were all but inseparable. My fiance was even able to groom Aires from head to tail without a lead rope on him or anything, and he was more comfortable giving him correction. Did I accomplish what I had originally intended to accomplish? Not in the slightest. But, we did accomplish _something_ and that's what mattered. 

Quit your worrying and over-analyzing and trying to plan for every little issue and contingency. Enjoy your horse, correct her when she needs it, and celebrate the "victories" as they come. You'll both be _a lot_ happier for it and I'd be willing to bet she settles down and is easier to handle.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It is tough for the horse to relax if its rider/trainer is tense about succeeding in their training goals.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Hoofpic, do you even get any enjoyment from being around/handling your horse?

I ask because you seem so anxious and so in need of control over her slightest movements. I would not find being in such a situation the least bit enjoyable. I'm not criticizing you, please understand that. I'm trying to understand what your motivation for having/training a horse is, because what's coming across in your posts is a lot of nervousness and anxiety, rather than curiosity and enjoyment, which may actually be what you're trying to convey. 

When I read the post where you mentioned that your horse stood still for "8 Minutes" my jaw literally dropped. It wouldn't occur to me to put a watch on my horses. That seems a little obsessive to me. 

How old are you, if you don't mind my asking? I ask because you seem so young in some of your posts but in others, you sound very adult. Constantly seeking approval for yourself and what you do with your horse is what seems very young, but yet you don't mention parents or anything in your posts. I'm really not trying to be nosey, but I am trying to understand more of where you're coming from because sometimes, like with the stop watch, and the concern over the head rubbing and the worry about standing like a statue, it seems like you are so caught up with certain things that you're getting a bunch of different advice that may not be geared to your best solutions.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> How old are you, if you don't mind my asking? I ask because you seem so young in some of your posts but in others, you sound very adult. Constantly seeking approval for yourself and what you do with your horse is what seems very young, but yet you don't mention parents or anything in your posts. I'm really not trying to be nosey, but I am trying to understand more of where you're coming from because sometimes, like with the stop watch, and the concern over the head rubbing and the worry about standing like a statue, it seems like you are so caught up with certain things that you're getting a bunch of different advice that may not be geared to your best solutions.


In addition to this, it seems like because you're getting so caught up in the little things and, as DA said, obsessing over them, you're missing the forest for the proverbial trees. For example, you constantly ask about your mare respecting you, yet you're micromanaging her to the point that, were I her, I probably wouldn't respect you either. Think about it: if you can't do anything right, why do try at all?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

No horse is perfect, just as no people are perfect. 

You have to give and take, you have to expect her to make mistakes, just as you are going to make mistakes.

I will say that I hate the idea of you always having a stick handy to get after her when you think it is necessary. There really is no need and to me shows you are not correcting the right way but are nagging her which will turn her sour. 

_I do not think, for a minute that you have any intention of beating her up!_

I do hope that the riding of her goes well. Can't wait to read about it.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Fox, I might need to start using my stick to correct her if I need to since what ive been doing as a consequence hasnt been working for her attempting to bite or rub her face on me. Its just something i want to try. Like others have said, a stick or whip is an extension of your arm and can send you a much more powerful message. 

If correcting her by my hands hasnt worked, then what would you suggest? For instance I find backing up with the whip to be effective.

The good news is that she hasnt tried to bite or rub her face on me in two days now.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Hoofpic, do you even get any enjoyment from being around/handling your horse?
> 
> I ask because you seem so anxious and so in need of control over her slightest movements. I would not find being in such a situation the least bit enjoyable. I'm not criticizing you, please understand that. I'm trying to understand what your motivation for having/training a horse is, because what's coming across in your posts is a lot of nervousness and anxiety, rather than curiosity and enjoyment, which may actually be what you're trying to convey.
> 
> ...


Of course I get enjoyment from handling her, I get a lot of enjoyment. 

Ive stopped over analysing, I feel a lot more comfortable handling her today than I did when I got her. 

This may be hard to believe but Im actually not nearly as nervous around her as you all may think. I may across it on here because im giving out a lot of details but when im around her im pretty relaxed and calm.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

You are still over-analyzing, though. Asking "Will she..." and "What if she..." Those are over-analyzing. You will never be prepared for every contingency. You will never be able to predict what she'll do on any given day. So, you learn from a competent trainer or experienced horseperson and put those "tools" in your "toolbox" of knowledge and hope you don't need them, but if you do need them, you have them. You take each behavior and misbehavior as it comes and you respond to it appropriately. 

It would be a good idea for you to work with a well-broke horse, both on the ground and in the saddle, to get a feel for how and when to correct and "reward," then take those lessons and transfer them to your green horse. My first training project was an already-broke 8yo gelding who had a lot of bad habits. He knew what the right thing was, but his owners had made the wrong thing too easy for him for so long that he was a monster. He was pushy, wouldn't stand still tied, hated baths, and would "spook" at random things to get out of work (I say "spook" because it was too exaggerated to be a real spook..."Aaahhhh!! We're all going to die!! The wind is blowing a leaf in front of me!!!!"...yeah, don't buy it). By the time his owners took him back almost two years later, I had him leading quietly on a loose lead, backing off minimal pressure, standing tied quietly, loving baths, and lunging off verbal commands. We were even using him as a bareback lesson horse in a french link eggbutt snaffle (his owners insisted he couldn't be ridden in anything but a thin, twisted wire snaffle [direct reined, no neck reining] and a tie down). Because I learned how to correct bad behaviors on a horse who already knew what the right thing was, it was easier for me to teach my current gelding and stop those bad habits before they formed with him. I knew what to look for and what the consequences of the behaviors needed to be. I had better timing and feel, which is of paramount importance when training a horse fresh.

When my gelding reared, spun and bolted while I had him on the lead last year when my old farrier approached him, do you think I was prepared for that? Do you think I had planned out exactly what I would do if he misbehaved like that? My dislocated finger, scraped up nose and face, and rope burned hands scream "Nope!" But, I picked myself up, dusted myself off, and dealt with the situation in front of me. Then I learned from the experience, filed it away in case it happens again, and moved on. 

You'll never be 100% prepared for everything, no matter how many ideas you bounce off other people and how much you analyze and worry about the situation.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Adding to what I just wrote...

We can tell you how we would handle a situation or what we would do until we're blue in the face, but *we're not there*. We don't see how exactly your mare is acting. We can't see her expression or your body language. Horse training cannot be learned from a website or a book. It comes from experience, hands-on lessons, and just doing. You can't develop timing or feel based on what some random person on the internet tells you. 

Yes, it's nice to come on here and bounce an idea or two off the more experienced members of the forum ("I want to accomplish X, so should I do Y and Z as well or just what's the best way to go about it?"), but the very best way to learn is to find someone knowledgeable, whose methods make sense to you, and have them teach you.

There's a reason that when you take horse-based classes in college, they are almost all hands-on and rarely require any textbooks.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I think the OP should post some video of her working around the horse here for people to see what's going on in some of these scenarios that are repeatedly asked about (ie, leading, grooming, lunging, riding)

Did you and/or the trainer ride today?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

^^^That could help
I think a lot of 'one horse' owners would be more than a little horrified at some of the behavior that gets ignored on big competition and racing yards because you either don't have time to notice, you just have to deal with it or you don't regard it as a major deal.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

OP, you might want to take a look at the video in this thread. This filly has been under saddle and in training for six months: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/made-youtube-clip-d-622321/ Find a trainer who will help you achieve that.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jaydee said:


> ^^^That could help
> I think a lot of 'one horse' owners would be more than a little horrified at some of the behavior that gets ignored on big competition and racing yards because you either don't have time to notice, you just have to deal with it or you don't regard it as a major deal.


I think you SO have a point there Jaydee! I know that I accept a lot now that as a one horse owner I'd have had a fit about. Now that I have anywhere from 8-20 horses, depending on how many I've bred and how many boarders I have taken, I know that I worry a lot more about what I'm teaching the foals than what their momma may sneak by with. Or, I'm making sure the stallion never gets too far out of line, but the gelding paws when he's tied? PFFFFFFT, who cares? He'll quit when he's tired of it. I know when I only had one horse at a time, they were on the whole a LOT better trained and I was much stricter with the one than I am with the bunch now.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> OP, you might want to take a look at the video in this thread. This filly has been under saddle and in training for six months: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/made-youtube-clip-d-622321/ Find a trainer who will help you achieve that.


Never mind how nicely trained that horse is, who do I have to murder for that indoor? DANG that's nice!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I think you SO have a point there Jaydee! I know that I accept a lot now that as a one horse owner I'd have had a fit about. Now that I have anywhere from 8-20 horses, depending on how many I've bred and how many boarders I have taken, I know that I worry a lot more about what I'm teaching the foals than what their momma may sneak by with. Or, I'm making sure the stallion never gets too far out of line, but the gelding paws when he's tied? PFFFFFFT, who cares? He'll quit when he's tired of it. I know when I only had one horse at a time, they were on the whole a LOT better trained and I was much stricter with the one than I am with the bunch now.


I think that's where I've had an advantage starting out in the horse world. I started with my old gelding as a retrain project, yes, but I also worked with three to five other horses on any given day. Then I worked at the Girl Scout horse camp (our motto at times was "Eh, close enough" :lol: ). When your dealing with multiple horses at once, plus having to handle 6-11yo girls who are either squealing because they're so excited or sobbing because they suddenly realized just how big horses are and now don't want to ride, you let some things slide. Like the little mare who was a regular Houdini at untying herself, regardless of how we tied her...yet she ground tied, so the second her lead rope hit the ground, she froze in place. :lol: Doesn't seem like such a big deal when Sally is standing on the top step of the mounting block screaming and crying because she all of a sudden doesn't want to ride the quietest horse you've got.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Never mind how nicely trained that horse is, who do I have to murder for that indoor? DANG that's nice!


Right?! I live where it doesn't snow much, if at all, our winters don't get _that_ cold, and our summers aren't too awfully hot and _*I*_ would kill for that indoor!! :lol:


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Heading home now. Lesson went very well,will go in detail when i get home.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Lesson went well, it was the first time my new trainer (and the BO sat in as well cause he wanted to see), saw my horse working and assess her.

She wanted me to lunge her with the saddle and bridle on, she said she wants me to start doing this for now on. So that she can at least get used to having some weight her back again. We used one of the lesson horse saddles and the first one we put on actually fit well and she was comfy in it. It wasnt tight on the withers or anywhere. We just took the reigns off.

I thought great idea because Ive never lunged her with a saddle or bridle on before.

She said I can use this saddle until I buy one for myself. It wasnt anything fancy and she said it was a generic saddle, but it gets the job done.

Also I need practice putting on saddles and bridles because I havent done it in many months and its fresh to me (youtubing videos will really help me) and by me getting used to taching her right now, (even if I only lunge her) it gives me good practice moving forward. The more I do it, the more natural it will become for me and this is what I need.

First off, the trainer says I should always wear gloves when doing any groundwork on a horse. Any one here wear gloves? She said so I dont get rope burn if the horse ends up doing anything wacko on the line and cause the line to roll out. So I put gloves on. Didnt feel natural especially with the lunge line but I will get used to it. Will wear my own gloves for now on which are a better fit for my hands.

When I lunged her, she was a bit too fast on her pacing, perhaps getting used to a new arena.

I first lunged her (only for a couple mins) then the trainer took over. My horse was distracted by certain happenings in the arena (another horse), windows and each time she would approach these areas on the lunge line, she would slow down. She was better as we lunged her more, but this is something I will need to look out for and work with her when im lunging her in the arena next time. She said that its good to work with conflicts like this because when Im out on the trail riding her, she will have distractions as well so I will need to learn to deal with them. Just because she didnt have any of these in the old barn, doesnt mean anything.

Trainer said she wont ride her today because she wants to assess her on the line and ground driving. So afteer she was done lunging her, she assessed her, her and the BO both agreed that her right side is her weak side and the side where she needs more work on. She needs more flexing on the right side. There are a couple excersizes that they showed me to work on to help with her right side.

She then ground drove her and she did good. They just did it to double check she was okay ground driven. They asked me if shes been ground driven before and I said not sure so she did it just in case. Trainer said she does not get on any horse before at least seeing how they are ground driven.

Near the end I held her and the trainer hopped on her but didnt ride her. She was fine. We just got her to stand. At this time, she was trying to get in the BO's space who was sitting there next to me. He would sit there and just stick his index finger up pointed towards her. When she would try to come closer in his space, he would make that finger bigger by pointing it in her direction. He said that this is similar to the hoofpic technique. Using your finger is just as effective when wanting to get a horse out of your space and told me I should try it.

She was also a bit rude with the trainer but the trainer quickly gave her a poke in the soft spot right behind the mouth.

Now I pick up a lot from watching trainers work with my horse. When I tell mine verbal ques, I always talk in a stern and louder than normal tone of voice. Reason is, when I very first started with my very first trainer (back in march), I used to always give verbal ques in soft voices but she said I need to talk stern and loud like I really mean it.

but when I watch the trainer tonight and even past 2 trainers Ive had, they ALL give their verbal ques in very soft and low volume tone of voices. Which is the way to do it? Should I go back to a soft and gentle voice?

Cause ideally I would love to be able to control her on a trot, lope, walk with just my voice and not have to use a stern voice or a carrot stick. I dont mind using the stick but I would love to have my voice as my main source of controlling her feet.

Trainer also uses a kiss as opposed to a cluck to get her going. I thought clucking is more prefered? Whats the difference between using a kiss than a cluck?

She was giving 5 or 6 or 7 kisses until she got going, whereas me Ive always clucked and only did it twice. 

I was given quite a bit of good advice from both the trainer and BO.

They both said that getting her more comfortable on her right side wont take long. Shes only 4.5 years old and at this age its perfectly normal for a horse to have a less comfortable side, so now is a great time to fix it.

They suggested I start leading her on her right side, start backing her up on her right side, and flexing her on her right side more.

I have my work cut out for me in the next bit. Next lesson is this Tues night. I wanted it close by. Trainer will first ride her in the round pen and maybe do a bit more lunging and working on that right side.

I mentioned to the BO and trainer how Ive had a massage therapist out twice and she diagnosed that her front right leg is stronger than her front left and that I need to trot and canter her to her left to build up teh left side. BO and trainer arent big believers in massage therapists. They said that even though my massage therapist told me that, there is not 100% its true mainly cause they said if I really wanted to get a diagnosis done, I should get a trainer/vet to do it because you can pretty much just become a massage therapist by reading books and taking a class. Which is true. Thoughts on this? They werent saying that there arent any good and accurate massage therapists out there, its just that they wont have the same POV (I guess you could say that) as a vet who went through far more extensive training in terms of education than a massage therapist who just takes a class (which my massage therapist did, thats how she became one).

In the meantime, I will need to youtube videos on how to put on a saddle and bridle just for practice. Im still fresh on it and if I watch videos, I will become more familiar with it.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I don't wear gloves, but mainly because I usually free lunge. Even when I lunged my old gelding on a line, I didn't wear them. Personal preference, really. I have really oddly-shaped hands (big square palms and long slender fingers).

I kiss or cluck, depending on what I want. Cluck to move out or move over. Kiss, I reserve for asking for a canter/lope.

As for voice, I modulate my tone based on his behavior and what I want. If he's being compliant and listening well, a soft tone works well. If he's being a turd, then I'll get sterner with my voice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Im actually pretty excited, tomorrow I will put the saddle on, bridle on. 

My concern with saddling is that I need to be sure where exactly I lay the pad and where exactly I put the saddle. I know the back of the pad should end where their last rib is and and need to make sure I know how tight I do up the girth without making it too tight.

Also how do I check to make sure the saddle isnt too tight with the pad on underneather? Cause this pad is like 1" thick, its thick and often they with the saddle can cause discomfort on the horse.

For the bridle, I know the steps, I just need to make sure I know how to get the bit in smoothly. Im fine with sticking my fingers in my horses mouth (have done it before).


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

What kind of saddle do you ride in?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I don't wear gloves, but mainly because I usually free lunge. Even when I lunged my old gelding on a line, I didn't wear them. Personal preference, really. I have really oddly-shaped hands (big square palms and long slender fingers).
> 
> I kiss or cluck, depending on what I want. Cluck to move out or move over. Kiss, I reserve for asking for a canter/lope.
> 
> ...


Well I will have no choice but to wear gloves for now on. Not a big deal to me, just will have to get used to it.

So whether someone uses a kiss or cluck, its personal preference? How many times should you usually cluck when you want a horse to move?

Im sure it cant be done in constant repetition like a kiss would.

Im going to try going back to a soft and gentle voice first when giving verbal ques and only getting stern and louder if shes not responding. Sound fair?

Cause shouldnt ques be first given out like regular ques? Soft and gentle at first? IF so, then there is no reason for me to start off with a loud, deep and stern tone. I mean the whole goal is to get them to move by the lightest ques right?

Maybe its just me but when I have people watching me work with my horse (and I think its just the fact me knowing they are watching me live), it makes me a bit nervous. Maybe I just havent been working with a single trainer for long enough to get fully comfortable with them but I just feel when im watched, every move I make is analyzed (which really it is) for them to critique me.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

jaydee said:


> ^^^That could help
> I think a lot of 'one horse' owners would be more than a little horrified at some of the behavior that gets ignored on big competition and racing yards because you either don't have time to notice, you just have to deal with it or you don't regard it as a major deal.


 That is very true Jaydee. I work with a total of twenty four horses at two separate barns. If for example, a horse is difficult to lead no one would question me if I took twenty minutes to give him some lessons but I simply don't have the time (and sometimes the energy). So what the horse gets is a mild correction in the couple of minutes that it takes to go from point A to B and that is all I will put into it until the next day. Not making too big a deal about things does work as long as you are consistent.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

For a western saddle, there is good reading here:

Saddle fit - Western compared to English Part 3

False "saddle fit rules" regarding the shoulder blades

Lots of pages of information on that website from people who make western saddle trees.

If English...someone else can give advice.


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## enh817 (Jun 1, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> Well I will have no choice but to wear gloves for now on. Not a big deal to me, just will have to get used to it.
> 
> So whether someone uses a kiss or cluck, its personal preference? How many times should you usually cluck when you want a horse to move?
> 
> ...


I don't wear gloves, because a) it's hotter than hades where I live and b) I'm handling horses all day long, I'd probably take the gloves off somewhere, set them down and lose them just like my sunglasses, cell phone, water bottle, etc etc. c) I like my hands to be callused so I don't get blisters.
It would've done me good last week to have gloves on. I got in an epic battle with the broncy mare I'm trying to make safe for resell. She forgot how unpleasant life becomes when she goes to bucking and wouldn't even let me climb on her without breaking in two. So long story short, I had a war bridle on her (lariat rope configured around her face, only to be used with really rank horses), And she went to bucking and dragging me around the round pen. I tried to get my end of the rope behind me to use my body to stop her, but I couldn't do it quick enough, before she started pulling rope through my hand. I was NOT letting go for anything, so needless to say I lost like every layer of skin in various places on my left hand. That was like 10 days ago and the wounds are still oozing and painful.... I wish I had gloves on then, for sure! 

Yep, kiss or cluck are personal preference. I prefer cluck, because I feel silly making kissing noises. But your horse can learn that both of those sounds mean the same thing. 

If I want a horse to change gaits, I will usually give three clucks, the first two tell them to build energy and the last one to step up into the next gate. If that doesn't happen, it's followed up with by a pop from the whip or my rein. I don't want my horses to change gaits off of one cluck, because then I can't use a cluck to speed them up within a certain gait.. if that makes sense. I want to be able to cluck once and have them just get quicker, but cluck three times to ask for the next gait. 

I can't help you with the verbal cues, as the only one I use is cluck. I don't even teach my horses what woah means, until they are stopping correctly (we mostly have cowhorses, cutters and reiners, so we want them to get their hind end up under them and of course cowhorses and reiners slide). I don't use 'woah' any time other than when I'm sliding one (on the cutters, the cow stops them so they don't know the word 'woah' either), because I don't want the word to have any association with dumping on the front end or other bad stopping habits. Proper sliding stops are a very forward maneuver, where the front end has to stay free and elevated. The mechanics are really not at all the same as stopping from a trot or telling the horse to stand on the ground, so I don't have the same cues. Every other movement I want from my horses, I achieve through body language and physical cues. 

It's perfectly normal to get nervous when people are watching you. I get anxious and tense, because I want to do everything perfect and I for some reason think I should be able to do that the first time I try something. 
But just remember, that's what you're paying them for. If they aren't paying close attention and critiquing you, then you aren't getting your money's worth. I've gotten a lot better about trying too hard not to make mistakes, since the Boss Man pointed out that the best time to make mistakes is during a lesson, so they can be pointed out, discussed and corrected. If you have a lesson where you just keep making errors, then that should be looked at as a good, constructive lesson because you learn so much more than when you have a lesson where everything goes perfectly. 

I'm glad things are progressing well for you and your little mare. You've not mentioned her name, I don't think. And we also require a picture so we can see the little snot  
I'm a bit disappointed for you that the trainer didn't get on the horse, but I know it's just a personal pet peeve of mine when people put off riding a horse. I always feel like it's better to just do it and get it over with. I guess I've just paid my price a number of times in the past, where I got in trouble putting off getting on one, and the horse seemed to be like "hey! I don't work this hard! Remember? you just get me out and make me do some mindless junk in the round pen, bore the crap out of me and put me up. I'm used to that lazy life and really would rather not carry your stupid *** around. Peace MF!!" 
Hopefully she'll actually ride the horse Tuesday and make her work for a living.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I think you need lessons on a schoolmaster before you get on this horse. Seriously. 

Dealing with horses requires constant ebb and flow, give and take, ab und zu, whatever you want to call it. What the horse responds to today, she may not tomorrow...then the 5 or so days when she is hormonal, she may be unpredictable. 

There is almost never just a cluck, just a kiss, or just a finger point. There is a RISE in energy, an invisible DESIRE communicated to move, either out of my way, forward in a different gait, over there instead of here.... Horses FEEL this. 

Horses cannot count, so there is no 'correct ' number of anything. If you want her to go on a magical cue, don't say anything. Or use whisper. 

Get some lessons on horses that are TRAINED, then you will have the proper FEEL for what it takes...


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

bsms said:


> For a western saddle, there is good reading here:
> 
> Saddle fit - Western compared to English Part 3
> 
> ...


Thanks and yes its a western saddle that we are using for the time being.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

enh817 said:


> I wish I had gloves on then, for sure!


Sorry to hear about this, hope you get well soon.



> Yep, kiss or cluck are personal preference. I prefer cluck, because I feel silly making kissing noises. But your horse can learn that both of those sounds mean the same thing.
> 
> If I want a horse to change gaits, I will usually give three clucks, the first two tell them to build energy and the last one to step up into the next gate. If that doesn't happen, it's followed up with by a pop from the whip or my rein. I don't want my horses to change gaits off of one cluck, because then I can't use a cluck to speed them up within a certain gait.. if that makes sense. I want to be able to cluck once and have them just get quicker, but cluck three times to ask for the next gait.


Would you say it would be a bad thing to keep clucking until she gets going? Or just keep it as just the double cluck that ive been using? I know people always kiss until they get going but Ive never heard anyone cluck the same way. I know it probably isnt an issue but just wanted to ask anyways.



> I can't help you with the verbal cues, as the only one I use is cluck. I don't even teach my horses what woah means, until they are stopping correctly (we mostly have cowhorses, cutters and reiners, so we want them to get their hind end up under them and of course cowhorses and reiners slide). I don't use 'woah' any time other than when I'm sliding one (on the cutters, the cow stops them so they don't know the word 'woah' either), because I don't want the word to have any association with dumping on the front end or other bad stopping habits. Proper sliding stops are a very forward maneuver, where the front end has to stay free and elevated. The mechanics are really not at all the same as stopping from a trot or telling the horse to stand on the ground, so I don't have the same cues. Every other movement I want from my horses, I achieve through body language and physical cues.


Interesting. Well for the time being, I am going to try going back with soft and gentle verbal ques and up to a stern tone of voice if she doesnt reply. But I just find that if trainers can move her with the softest tone of voice, I should be able to as well (eventually).



> I'm glad things are progressing well for you and your little mare. You've not mentioned her name, I don't think. And we also require a picture so we can see the little snot


Her name is Fly and I will post a pic very soon.



> I'm a bit disappointed for you that the trainer didn't get on the horse, but I know it's just a personal pet peeve of mine when people put off riding a horse. I always feel like it's better to just do it and get it over with. I guess I've just paid my price a number of times in the past, where I got in trouble putting off getting on one, and the horse seemed to be like "hey! I don't work this hard! Remember? you just get me out and make me do some mindless junk in the round pen, bore the crap out of me and put me up. I'm used to that lazy life and really would rather not carry your stupid *** around. Peace MF!!"
> Hopefully she'll actually ride the horse Tuesday and make her work for a living.


Well she did get on her at the end but didnt ride her. I think her reasoning was that for her own safety as she said she always needs to see how a horse is on the ground before getitng up on them.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Ive been starting to lead my horse on her right side as opposed to her left. I dont do right all the time, still switch it up but I was suggested to start leading her on her right side. So far so good.

1) How can I tell (what signs will she show) when shes fully comfortable and use to being lead on her right side?

2) What benefits come from it?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

1) She'll lead exactly the same from the right as from the left.

2) You want your horse to be comfortable being messed with from either side. This includes leading, saddling and mounting. There are going to be times when doing everything on the left like "normal" won't be possible. If she's comfortable with everything being done from both sides, you won't have to worry about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I only wear gloves when its cold or I'm lunging a horse that's new to me or just starting out. Now this is one of those things that I do but wouldn't advise anyone else to do - wearing gloves is preferable to having rope burns!!!
I don't use the 'kissing/smooching' noise - not something I'd ever heard of until I came here, I did try it once on Loo when I was riding and someone must have used it on her along with a good crack of a whip at some time because she shot off like she's got a rocket up her backside
I make a clicking noise with my tongue as a 'focus' for what's coming next similar to clicker training and then follow it immediately with a verbal cue. I prefer not to use a click or cluck to ask for forward movement because in the show ring you can always hear someone quietly doing it but verbal cues you don't hear


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> 1) She'll lead exactly the same from the right as from the left.
> 
> 2) You want your horse to be comfortable being messed with from either side. This includes leading, saddling and mounting. There are going to be times when doing everything on the left like "normal" won't be possible. If she's comfortable with everything being done from both sides, you won't have to worry about it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think she already has the hang of it. Sounds beneficial to do this. I should probably make it a permanent habit of changing back and fourth between her left and right eh?

That also includes backing her up from her right as well.


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## Teller (Jul 30, 2015)

She sounds like a great horse, and I too think you should ride. I rode mine and I had no idea how it would go. I started in the round pen, than went into a larger ring and than when I taught him to stop, walk on verbal etc I went trail riding. 

My horse is very green, and he tests me alot more than what your saying. I'd just lead her and stop ask her to stop. praise her, do it again. I did this for 3 days in a row and finally my horse stopped dragging me.

good luck!!


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I am terribly sorry to say, hoof pic, but welcome to the unscrupulous world of horse trading.....they "saw you coming" as the saying goes. 

Either put the mare in full training, or sell her before you get hurt...then take the trainer WITH you when you go to look at horses...you NEED a schoolmaster type horse. 

You wil be safe and happy!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

When I lunge a horse, I expect that horse to keep slack in that line.
A horse only gets to try and pull once, and then he is lunged for awhile with a chain run under the chin.
If I had to wear gloves to lunge a horse, it would be because it is winter,and my hands are freezing!
Sorry, but whoever sold you this horse, did not have the conscience to be honest and not let a person as green as you buy her.
When people came to look at any of my young horses and they were fairly green, and if they asked if the horse would be a good choice for them, and would tell them, that the horse was too green for them, even though they could get on after me, and ride that horse at all gaits.
Why? Because a horse that age, regardless of how good minded and well started, needs months, even years of good consistent knowledgeable riding, to have those good habits in grained, making them suitable amateur horses
You lack that ability to read a horse and apply a correct response on that, adjusting as needed to situation-and that is just on the ground so far!
You want if , 'if I do x in a certain number of times, then I will automatically get b each time, or even want b each time'.
This is not being said in a negative way, as heaven knows you obsess endlessly on doing things correctly, so certainly no lack of dedication or try!
However, there is no cookie cutter was to train a horse, well anyway. 
I truly believe that you might be ready for this level of horse in a few years, by first learning some hands on horsemanship with a 'been there, done it', type of horse, as you show a great desire and willingness to learn


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## dernhelm1984 (Dec 19, 2013)

Just finished reading this entire thread.

Hoofpick, how are things going? Has your trainer ridden the horse yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Ride the horse, unless you have goals of being the next Pat Parelli.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

dernhelm1984 said:


> Just finished reading this entire thread.
> 
> Hoofpick, how are things going? Has your trainer ridden the horse yet?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes she rode her on Tues and it went great!


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## dernhelm1984 (Dec 19, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes she rode her on Tues and it went great!


Awesome to hear! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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