# Best way to buy a harness? Many questions



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

If you want him to actually work pulling things, he would need a draft collar instead of a breast collar style harness. Those are a lot more expensive, maybe around $800.

Part of teaching a horse to drive is having them pull things behind them. I usually put a rope around a board or tire and thread it through a surcingle ring. Then hold one end of the rope while leading the pony, so if the pony gets worried you can let go and lose the dragging object. Once the pony doesn't mind pulling, I hold the threaded rope from behind the pony while driving. If the object pulls the surcingle back, you can add a breast collar. So if you just want to play with pulling things, a surcingle with a breast collar is enough.

If you don't want to actually drive, you don't need a harness. The main reasons for an official harness are straps to pull the cart that attach to the breast collar, and the "brakes" which is the breeching that stops the cart from running into the pony. The "saddle" has straps to hold up the poles of the cart.

Nylon harnesses are difficult to put on and adjust. If you want to go cheaper I'd suggest a beta harness. Two horse tack has a pony harness for $180. 

Most harnesses are not that hard to adjust. For a draft pony the main issue would usually be the "saddle" or surcingle being long enough to go around the girth. My friend has struggled with the saddle and cart shafts getting too tight when her pony got fat.

Most harnesses come with a bridle but you can use any head gear you want. I think the two horse tack harness has a bitless option.


----------



## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

People use breast collars to start their horses pulling light stuff all the time but you must be careful due to the way a BC distributes the weight on the horse. A breast collar encircles the horses breast and is suspended in position by a neck strap which attaches to the breast collar on each side and passes over the withers. The traces attach to the breast collar, then go back to whatever the horse is pulling.

Now, if the traces form a horizontal line from the breast collar to the load, everything is more or less balanced as far as the horse is concerned. But if the traces angle DOWN to the load from the point where they attach to the breast collar, some of the load, or "draft" will be diverted from the breast collar UPWARD through the neck strap and bear heavily on the withers. If this weight bearing across the withers is heavy enough or prolonged enough, it can cause injury, like nerve damage. So consider this when thinking about pulling a log or a plow with a breast collar.

A neck collar is designed to have the traces "hinged" (via the metal hames that strap on to the collar) at a more elevated position on the horse's shoulder anatomy. When the traces angle downward from the collar to the load, ideally they will form a 90 degree angle to the hames which pulls the collar down evenly on the shoulders, distributing the weight of the load evenly over a much broader surface than a narrow breast collar. This is why they are considered better for ground implements and heavier loads, or any carriage which is built so the traces are attached low.

The difficulties with the neck collar are fitting it correctly and trying to maintain the correct angle between the hames and traces. A lot of people just don't want to go this far into the technicalities of optimal hanessing. I've actually had my horse pull a sled in the arena with nothing more than collar, hames and traces (and bridle/lines). He's real good about having things get tangled around his legs. With me on the tiny sled, that's a lot of dead weight. 

You could add a breast collar and traces to your surcingle and teach the horse to pull light objects, but in the end, I think for light logging and other draft work you'll eventually have to spring for a neck collar.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

A farm harness or work harness with collar would be what you want. You need all the pieces for pulling a cart or equipment but just make adjustments to pull brush and logs. Having the extra pieces isn't an issue.

Here is simplified of each


----------



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

OK, cool. Now, what about my question of a neck collar possible not fitting if he changed shape -- is that likely? Or is it maybe something like a wool-flocked saddle where you could open it up and change the padding so it would still fit?

It's got to be at least a month of practicing nothing but ground driving until I'm maybe ready to ask him to pull stuff. Maybe I can wait until spring break and then get my daughter to help with the carrying the tire part. But I guess actually that's not that long of a time, so I probably need to figure this out.

I'm thinking maybe just get the breast collar and start him with light pulling and see? He's always been game for anything and I doubt he'll have problems pulling stuff, but just in case he does then I wouldn't be out the $$$ for a neck collar. On the other hand, from what @dogpatch is saying it seems like it's possible that I could injure him or at least sour him on the whole process by putting too much weight on the breast collar.

I'm also thinking breast collar because isn't that more adjustable than the neck collar? Or am I wrong about that. I do NOT want to pay $$$ for a neck collar that doesn't fit.

@dogpatch you mentioned the breast collar putting weight on his withers. He actually pretty much has no withers. Would that make a difference either way in what you're saying?


----------



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

You know how people always show up here asking about buying some super cheap saddle and everyone tells them, no, it's super cheap, just look at it, it's going to fall apart, don't buy it, blah blah blah?

Well I'm looking at a bunch of super cheap harnesses on eBay and such. I know I shouldn't. I'm going to stop. I don't want to get something that's going to break or hurt him.


----------



## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

I think the changing collar fit issue throughout the season is overrated for lightly used pleasure horses. People will say the collar will get loose because the horse loses fat. Other people will say the collar will get tight because the horse gains muscle. There are adjustable collars available that will go up or down 3" which is actually fairly significant in a collar. There are collars made for narrow, regular and wide width necks. There are all sorts of different pads for collars.

The last horse I started, I taught her about dragging things using a simple thick rope around her neck going to a piece of carpet. I could hold the end of the rope and let go of it if she got frightened. Her biggest fear was rigid shafts touching her legs. Learning to pull isn't just about moving a load, it's also about all them weird thangs banging around on their legs, getting wrapped around the legs, touching places they don't want to be touched. You definitely don't need to start with anything heavy that would require a neck collar.

It's difficult to help people grasp how much pain and damage a neck strap being pulled down at the top of the neck, regardless of conformation, can cause. Imagine you have a sled that weighs 100 pounds. And a human standing on the sled that weighs 150 pounds. That's 250 pounds of dead weight. Say the arena is sand or dirt. Lots of resistance. Now, say 50% of that dead weight is diverted to the top of the neck because the traces angle sharply downward at the neckstrap. You've got 125 pounds of dead weight coming down on a vulnerable part of the horse's anatomy.

But it's not just about the top of the withers/neck. A breast collar is located over the most mobile part of the horse's shoulder blade. The shoulder blade has no bony attachment to the rest of the skeleton. As the leg swings forward, the shoulder blade must PUSH the weight of the sled forward before he can advance his leg. You have put his front legs in a gunny sack. With a neck collar, the weight of the load is taken higher up on the shoulder blade and the collar sits snugly against a thick shelf of muscle. You can pretty much observe the leg swinging back and forth without having to push the bottom of the collar out of the way. 

If you acquire a breast collar and traces, here is an experiment you can perform to judge how important it is to not attach a heavy load to the horse with with traces angled down:

You can attach some lead ropes to the traces to lengthen them a bit. Put the breast collar on the horse and have a friend grab the ends of the traces, while you insert your hand, on edge, thumb upward, under the neck strap. Now have your friend gradually put pressure on the traces while slowly lowering them. You will feel the pressure on your fingers mount under the neckstrap until it feels quite painful, especially if considerable pressure is put on the traces by your friend. There is likely no way your friend will be able to put as much pressure on the traces as a dead weight like a small log.

My advice to people starting out has always been to decide what type of vehicle or ground work your horse will pull/perform, and then match the harness purchase to that decision. You can always modify what you've got later, i.e. you can buy a neck collar and hames to go with your breast collar harness. There's a little book I wrote called "Understanding Harness" that is sold through the Carriage Assn. of America, www.caaonline.com The entire content of this book, maybe 65 pages, is devoted to this subject, it's full of pictures and deliberately easy, maybe entertaining, to read. Even HRH Prince Phillip has a copy of it in his driving library. Posts on an internet forum can frequently be necessarily too brief to help a person with questions like these. They are important questions.


----------



## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

ACinATX said:


> You know how people always show up here asking about buying some super cheap saddle and everyone tells them, no, it's super cheap, just look at it, it's going to fall apart, don't buy it, blah blah blah?
> 
> Well I'm looking at a bunch of super cheap harnesses on eBay and such. I know I shouldn't. I'm going to stop. I don't want to get something that's going to break or hurt him.


AC, there are some VERY reputable harness making firms out there, and there are plenty of cheap, third world harnesses available that sell for less than a US harness maker could buy raw materials for.
Some reputable makers/dealers: Smucker's Harness, Yonie's Harness, Comfy Fit/Chimacum Tack, Bowman Harness. Chimacum Tack is noted for its good customer service. I'm sure the others are too, but if you are looking for used, you might want to get on some driving or draft forums that have a buy/sell function. I would definitely look for verifiable US/Canadian made.

Every single strap on a harness is your little spiderweb thread to safety. You are very wise to gather as much information as you can before proceeding.


----------



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I found Chimacum tack online and was actually going to ask about them. Good to know that they have a good reputation. I guess they'd help me with sizing and fit also?

I appreciate all the advice. I will check out your book!


----------



## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

ACinATX said:


> I found Chimacum tack online and was actually going to ask about them. Good to know that they have a good reputation. I guess they'd help me with sizing and fit also?
> 
> I appreciate all the advice. I will check out your book!


They will certainly help as much as they can! If you talk to Mindy, tell her Barb Lee sent ya!


----------



## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

Oh, and the notable exception to Buy American/Canadian is Zilco harness. They do not make neck collar style harness, but you can retrofit.


----------



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I have ordered your book. Let me know if there are any other books you'd recommend. I feel good about training him, since he's really smart and we communicate well, but I am pretty intimidated about buying a harness, in case you couldn't tell!


----------



## CaliforniaDreaming (May 8, 2011)

I had a ComfyFit harness and Eurocollar from Chimacum Tack. Loved it. Wish I'd been able to keep it, but after I broke my femur, I had to offload some stuff to pay the bills, and my driving harness was the big sell. I did keep my nylon work harness from Ron's Tack/Amber Hillside (in Canada) as it was a quality nylon harness (the harness saddle had a proper tree, etc and really good hardware and stuff, it was like their leather harnesses, but in nylon instead, not like that cheap Tough-1 stuff or anything) but that harness maker has long since closed. Best $160 I ever spent on a harness.


----------



## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

ACinATX said:


> I have ordered your book. Let me know if there are any other books you'd recommend. I feel good about training him, since he's really smart and we communicate well, but I am pretty intimidated about buying a harness, in case you couldn't tell!


Unfortunately, I am greatly at odds with the light driving community, its conformity to fashion over function, and it's blind eye to what's best for the horse in favor of winning in competition. It's like a farmer growing his crop for yield instead of nutrition, in my eyes. Both goals have opposing sets of priorities in many cases. So I don't have any recommendations regarding light harness reading material. I'll think about it and let you know if I remember something. There is however, an old classic called Breaking and Training the Driving horse by Doris Ganton. It's kind of a step by step how to road map that's been the favorite beginner book of many for decades.

On the other hand, you may find some useful and horse friendly wisdom from Steve Bowers, a teamster who has passed on unfortunately. The draft horse authorities tend to lean toward driving multiples and don't seem to address driving singles very seriously. If you're leaning toward doing "dirt work" with your light horse, it's probably good to gather information from both communities.


----------



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

dogpatch said:


> I am greatly at odds with the light driving community, its conformity to fashion over function, and it's blind eye to what's best for the horse in favor of winning in competition.


If you wouldn't mind, can you explain this? Are you saying that people who compete buy equipment that sacrifices safety and the horse's comfort in order to look better? That's really unfortunate.


----------



## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

ACinATX said:


> If you wouldn't mind, can you explain this? Are you saying that people who compete buy equipment that sacrifices safety and the horse's comfort in order to look better? That's really unfortunate.


I was a harness maker and antique carriage restorer, and was immersed in harness and driving by the time Combined Driving emerged. I watched the evolution of the equipment go through changes that completely threw out principles of draft and empathetic harnessing practices. I watched a lot of clueless people do stupid stuff to their horses. The governing bodies never imposed a set of qualifications for drivers to compete and I watched newcomers being funneled into a dangerous sport with no qualifications. Bad things happened. Events were considered successful if nobody had a wreck.

No horse sport is without stain. 

Now, those are just my experiences and how I processed them. It means nothing in your situation. Before I create a firestorm of debate (which I have been famous for in the past on other forums), I will just wish you the very best of luck and exit the conversation.

BTW, I hope you find the book helpful. I do NOT earn any money from the sales. All proceeds go to the Carriage Association of America, so I wasn't promoting it, I just know it contains the answers to some of your questions.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

As the book was not written for financial gain and any money made goes to another entity the link is fine. Thanks @dogpatch for making it available.


----------



## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

QtrBel said:


> As the book was not written for financial gain and any money made goes to another entity the link is fine. Thanks @dogpatch for making it available.


My apologies for not making that clear when I first suggested the book. I know self promotion is against the rules.


----------



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

dogpatch said:


> Breaking and Training the Driving horse by Doris Ganton


Well, Amazon tells me I already have that book! Now I just have to find it...


----------

