# Phara Arabian Horses



## Druydess

Having a few Phara Arabians and expecting the acquisition of a few more next year, I thought it would be interesting to present a bit more information about these Arabians who have descended from the Sun God lines, heavily Crabbet bred, prepotent, and breathtakingly beautiful..
Not many have these horses in their barn and for that reason, I have taken a personal interest in the preservation of such lovely creatures.

A 100% Phara Arabian is defined as a horse bred by or owned at one time by Annette Weber (formerly Annette Patti) of Phara Farm (Phara Stud Inc) or one whose sire and dam are each 100% Phara. A horse contains some percentage of Phara blood if it has a Phara Arabian anywhere in its pedigree. All members of the Phara Heritage Society can have the Phara percentage of their horse verified at no cost. 

The Phara Arabian is easily recognized by several prepotent physical characteristics: their world-renowned extreme jibbahs, expressive round eyes and fabled teacup muzzles. In addition to their extreme type the 100% Phara Arabian is chestnut in body color (with a select few exceptions in the early years of the program), ranging from golden chestnut to purple, nearly black, chestnut. Mane and tail color are often flaxen, ranging from silver-white to orange flaxen locks. Classic children of the sun, their distinctive beauty is unforgettable. 

In disposition the Phara Arabian is truly a horse worthy of its Bedouin ancestors. Exhibiting loyal, loving dispositions that desire human companionship, the Phara Arabian is gentle to handle and easy to train. They possess a hearty work ethic and "live to please" attitude. 

Burgundy Sun- Grand-Sire to my stallion Gold N Obsidian and my mare Gold N Garbo:


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## Druydess

Few more pics:



















Burgundy Sun's son- Gold N Ali: Grand Sire to my stallion and mare:


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## Druydess

My stallion:
Gold N Obsidian:









My mare: Gold N Garbo:


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## WhoaNow

There Sid is!! 
Finally some pics, I haven't seen him posted all summer,...,
He looks GREAT:wink:


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## Druydess

WhoaNow said:


> There Sid is!!
> Finally some pics, I haven't seen him posted all summer,...,
> He looks GREAT:wink:


Hey - thanks girl- he has been loafing this summer.. but he is as manly as ever..lol..

But here's another one..


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## WhoaNow

He looks great!!
His coloring is changing, isn't it?


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## Druydess

It always does.. from near black to dark chestnut.. he's a bit bleached now since he's been out a bit- the summer here has been scorching..


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## WhoaNow

Are you planning to breed Solei to Sid?
She has that pretty face, and he is gorgeous.:thumbsup:

Nice confo, so refined, elegant.


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## Druydess

My stallion and mare's Sire, Golden Ecstasy:


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## WhoaNow

He's a HANDSOME fella!!


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## Druydess

WhoaNow said:


> Are you planning to breed Solei to Sid?
> She has that pretty face, and he is gorgeous.:thumbsup:
> 
> Nice confo, so refined, elegant.


Thanks so much- they are both just wonderful horses..

Sid would definitely put some bone and size on a foal, but I have other plans for her first foal. She has to finish showing first, and depending on how she does, we'll decide who the lucky "man" is. I have my three top choices of several top 10 stallions who have accepted Solei to their stallions..


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## Druydess

WhoaNow said:


> He's a HANDSOME fella!!


Well if you like that, this speaks for itself.. this guys movement sells itself..


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## Druydess

More about Phara Arabians:

The Phara Arabian is a result of generations of line-breeding horses descending from and closely related to the most classic of Crabbet descendants, Lewisfield Sun God. 

The Phara Arabian has withstood the test of time - there has ALWAYS been a market for these correct, gentle horses with extreme Arabian type - yet, seldom is a Phara Arabian for sale as they are highly treasured by their human families. The Phara breeding program is in its 46th year (as of 2009), and since its inception has maintained a constant waiting list for foals. 

Many of the breeders preserving the Phara Arabian have not made their breeding stock available to outside horses. Others owning Phara Arabians have chosen to remain out of the public eye, not promoting or advertising their beautiful horses but keeping them all to themselves for their personal enjoyment. Because of this there are many people today who are unaware of the Phara Arabian (especially those new to the breed). That is about to change. The Phara Heritage Society was created to give these "fairy tale horses come to life" added exposure in today's market that is over-populated with horses lacking authentic Arabian type. As our membership grows so will this organization's presence in the Arabian community. 
The distinct appearance and qualities of the Phara Arabian.


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## WhoaNow

He definitely has some 'WOW' factor, doesn't he!
Such a nice looking stud.
He's got it ALL, looks, refinement, movement, AND substance.


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## Druydess

WhoaNow said:


> He definitely has some 'WOW' factor, doesn't he!
> Such a nice looking stud.
> He's got it ALL, looks, refinement, movement, AND substance.


He does- that Phara blood certainly has the "Wow" factor!! And how gentle he is with children.. THAT really floored me..
His topline aint bad either...lol


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## Druydess

Some say Phara horses aren't "prestigious" enough. I very much respect that these horses aren't "the flavor of the month" and that Phara breeders aren't impressed with following the herd, so to speak. I personally don't give a rat's derriere who likes my horses, or who agrees with me. They can go about their business elsewhere, as they should. I've never done anything with the need to receive the accolades of others in my entire life, and don't plan to start now, so I respect others who do the same. I look forward to contributing to preserving the Phara Arabian and to enjoying such lovely horses..

Golden Ecstasy:


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## newbhj

Beautiful horse!
Arabians are such beautiful horses


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## Druydess

newbhj said:


> Beautiful horse!
> Arabians are such beautiful horses


Thanks for the comment Newbj! They have certainly stolen my heart!


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## Arksly

Wow. That's all I can say.


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## Druydess

Arksly said:


> Wow. That's all I can say.


Thank you Arksly, a very short, but potent commentary.. :wink:
Sometimes a few words is all you need..


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## ScharmLily

Absolutely stunning Druydess!
I am very much into arabians myself, although mine are not Phara bred. I actually didn't even know that they existed until now.

When I went to see my new boy, the first thing I saw was his wonderful temperment. The second thing I saw was that HUGE extended trot and great athleticism......I went home to get the trailer that day!

That's what I love about arabs, not only are they beautiful, athletic, and willing, but they are such people horses. I really can't say I'd be sad if I only owned arabians for the rest of my life


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## Alwaysbehind

I noticed in pictures of your mare that seems to have extreme flexion in her pasterns. I also noticed it in pictures of her sire. Have you noticed if he's passed those weak pasterns on to any of his other foals?


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## Druydess

ScharmLily said:


> Absolutely stunning Druydess!
> I am very much into arabians myself, although mine are not Phara bred. I actually didn't even know that they existed until now.
> 
> When I went to see my new boy, the first thing I saw was his wonderful temperment. The second thing I saw was that HUGE extended trot and great athleticism......I went home to get the trailer that day!
> 
> That's what I love about arabs, not only are they beautiful, athletic, and willing, but they are such people horses. I really can't say I'd be sad if I only owned arabians for the rest of my life


Thanks ScharmLily. They are wonderful companions, highly intelligent, and their beauty is just icing on the cake. I love the huge extended trot that's passed on in this line.. I can understand your excitement! I'd be happy with just Arabs as well, though I do have a QH rescue who's a doll!


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## gigem88

Gorgeous horses, Druydess! Hard to find any flaws, that is.....if any exist!


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## ShutUpJoe

When I saw his trot all I could think about was riding him. Is he smooth? He looks so animated.


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## csimkunas6

Druydess...thanks for all that information...never heard of them before, and I loved reading their past, and some of the facts about them. Golden Ecstasy is a dream come true!! What a powerful, beautiful, forward, stride covering, flooring, outstanding trot he has!1 Has to be one of the most gorgeous trot's that I have ever seen.

The way he is with children is outstanding as well. If he is the definition of the breed...WOW!!! What a breed that is! Thanks again!


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## AlexS

I noticed the flexion too, is that common with Arabs? And does it bother them under saddle?


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## mumiinek

Did I get it right that the sire and dam of Lewisfield Sun God were actually full brother and sister? I didn't know such breeding was desirable...


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## Speed Racer

AlexS said:


> I noticed the flexion too, is that common with Arabs? And does it bother them under saddle?


Nope, my Arab gelding even with my fat butt on board doesn't flex like that. I'd be worried about owning a horse who flexes that much _without_ a rider. It's only going to be worse when you add that extra weight.


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## goneriding

mumiinek said:


> Did I get it right that the sire and dam of Lewisfield Sun God were actually full brother and sister? I didn't know such breeding was desirable...


Some may breed this way to set desirable traits, but it can also backfire. You seriously need to know your lines especially the tail female and the traits they are dominant for generations back. I, personally don't care for it but that is only one opinion.


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## Celeste

Stunning stallion! Big, bold, beautiful trot!!


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## Druydess

gigem88 said:


> Gorgeous horses, Druydess! Hard to find any flaws, that is.....if any exist!


This line has such balanced traits; they seem to be very consistent in what they produce. And yes, hard to find any flaws.. :wink:


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## Druydess

AlexS said:


> I noticed the flexion too, is that common with Arabs? And does it bother them under saddle?


There is no pastern problem. Here in Florida, sand can be quite deep, which may make them appear to be over flexing. :wink:


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## Celeste

He is not over-flexing. His gait is light and springy.


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## Druydess

Celeste said:


> He is not over-flexing. His gait is light and springy.


As a vet, I value your professional assessment. No flexion problems have ever been found with any Vet exams on Golden Ecstasy or any of his progeny. 
Thanks Celeste!


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Druydess said:


> My stallion:
> Gold N Obsidian:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My mare: Gold N Garbo:


Ha love the cornrow braids.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Your stallion is gorgeous LOVE his coloring.....Any colts out of him yet I want a replica of him can I clone him lol


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## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Your stallion is gorgeous LOVE his coloring.....Any colts out of him yet I want a replica of him can I clone him lol


Not yet- he's still young, but thank you- we should have more like him with Phara blood coming soon..LOL..


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## Druydess

ShutUpJoe said:


> When I saw his trot all I could think about was riding him. Is he smooth? He looks so animated.


I have not ridden him Joe, but his owner says he is very smooth and of course, a bit less "powerful" with a rider unless asked for the full motor.. 

He is a very powerful, yet kind stallion..

A few more of his son Obsidian:


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## Druydess

More of Golden Ecstasy:


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## Katze

Looooooooooooooooooove them, holy cow the suspension on him! How tall is he Druy? And Golden Ecstasy is his son, he definetly got the wow factor going, what's his height?! 

Love your horses Druy, and I adore all the knowledge you put out there for everyone to learn more about these stunning horses. I never heard of the Phara line until today.

He does not over flex at all, take a closer look at the pics and the vid.


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## HorseLovinLady

They're all gorgeous Dru!! So glad you posted pics of Obsidian, i've been wondering how he was progressing.


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## Gidget

Good Lord! Your horses are stunning!


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## Angelina1

Drydess, your horses are stunning and I love seeing thier photos and learning more about the breed and history - Thank you for sharing..


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## Druydess

Katze said:


> Looooooooooooooooooove them, holy cow the suspension on him! How tall is he Druy? And Golden Ecstasy is his son, he definetly got the wow factor going, what's his height?!
> 
> Love your horses Druy, and I adore all the knowledge you put out there for everyone to learn more about these stunning horses. I never heard of the Phara line until today.
> 
> He does not over flex at all, take a closer look at the pics and the vid.


Katze, loooove your enthusiasm! :wink:
Thanks girl!

The suspension is amazing..
Are you referring to Obsidian or Golden Ecstasy? GE is the Sire- he's about 15.1, but really puts size on his progeny as is son Obsidian is about 15.2, and still growing. 

I love sharing what I've learned, as I too, knew nothing about this great line until I stumbled upon it.. And I've met so many great horse-people and breeders because if it.
There's much more info about these great horses and their history; if others are interested, I'll post more..


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## Katze

Yes please. do post more! Horses are my passion, hence the enthusiasm lol. When I see stunning animals like yours Druy it reinforces my passion for these stunning creatures time and time again. (And I was referring to both those gorgeous studs!) 15.2 awesome height, and when are you planning on breeding some gorgeous babies?


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## SunStarArabians

Hi All!

For those that don't know, I manage the Phara Heritage Society along with Annette Weber of Phara Farm, Gaye Myers of Sunh Kyst Arabians, and Gloria Bowman of Belle Cheval. These horses are our passion, obviously  And thanks so much to Dru for opening up the topic and sharing our beautiful "Golden" Arabians!! Not to mention a HUGE congratulations on her recent additions that are an exciting step toward carrying the Phara Arabians forward for the future generation <hugs>!!

A picture of my dear sweet Phara boy, The Golden Sun (6th generation Phara breeding and a product of a full brother/sister mating just like his golden ancestor, Lewisfield Sun God) by Burgundy Sun and out of The Sun Heiress. Regretfully lost one day short of his 7th birthday, June 3rd.


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## gigem88

Welcome SunStarArabians! Your boy is very pretty.


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## SunStarArabians

Thank you! Here's a video screenprint of my new boy (that has yet to join us at home) so please excuse the quality...

Wings of Gold (Burgundy Sun x BGM Sabrina) full brother to Miss Burgundy Sun and DRA Burgundy Rose - who is also the dam of Golden Ecstasy and therefore the granddam of Dru's Obsidian


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## RiddlesDarkAngel5

Wow!! I've been involved with arabians my whole life and I'd never heard of Pharas. I rarely ever see that kind of floating extended trot. The fact that he passes that on is just amazing!! I'm mad your in Florida LOL; you're too far away =(. Do you know if there are any breeders in Illinois (I live in the Chicago area)?


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## SunStarArabians

*Phara Arabian Breeders*



RiddlesDarkAngel5 said:


> Wow!! I've been involved with arabians my whole life and I'd never heard of Pharas. I rarely ever see that kind of floating extended trot. The fact that he passes that on is just amazing!! I'm mad your in Florida LOL; you're too far away =(. Do you know if there are any breeders in Illinois (I live in the Chicago area)?


Check out the PharaHeritageSociety.com website, it lists where everyone is  I'm not sure who would be closest to you, sorry!


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## RiddlesDarkAngel5

Thanks =) I'll check it out


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## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> Hi All! Thanks for inviting me to join in on the thread Dru!
> 
> For those that don't know, I manage the Phara Heritage Society along with Annette Weber of Phara Farm, Gaye Myers of Sunh Kyst Arabians, and Gloria Bowman of Belle Cheval. These horses are our passion, obviously  And thanks so much to Dru for opening up the topic and sharing our beautiful "Golden" Arabians!! Not to mention a HUGE congratulations on her recent additions that are an exciting step toward carrying the Phara Arabians forward for the future generation <hugs>!!
> 
> A picture of my dear sweet Phara boy, The Golden Sun (6th generation Phara breeding and a product of a full brother/sister mating just like his golden ancestor, Lewisfield Sun God) by Burgundy Sun and out of The Sun Heiress. Regretfully lost one day short of his 7th birthday, June 3rd.


SunSar!!!!!  Glad you are here. THIS Lady, folks, is THE Phara horsewoman!!
Thanks for the Congrats; I look forward to sharing the Phara bloodlines, beauty, and history with you, and others.

ALso very sad for the loss of your boy; I share you grief as I lost my girl this past January. But she inspires me every day and fuels my ongoing passion for these gorgeous creatures!

Welcome SunStar!! Look forward to your posts!


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## Druydess

FYI- I mis-typed on an earlier thread...
Burgundy Sun is the Grand-sire Golden Ecstasy, G-Grand-sire to my stallion and mare; and Gold N Ali is the Sire of Golden Ecstasy.

Well here: probably easier just to see for yourselves if there is any confusion.. 

Golden Ecstasy Arabian


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## WildJessie

Beautiful! I bet they are expensive since they are so rare! Are there any black ones? I love black horses, then its chestnuts.


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## SunStarArabians

*Phara Arabians come in shades of chestnut *



WildJessie said:


> Beautiful! I bet they are expensive since they are so rare! Are there any black ones? I love black horses, then its chestnuts.


After six generations, the only color we have in Phara Arabians is chestnut...of course, some of them are almost black  As far as I know, there have only been a few that were not chestnut and that was only in the first generation (ie. Phara Satin Doll).


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## SunStarArabians

*Thanks for the welcome!*



Druydess said:


> SunSar!!!!!  Glad you are here. THIS Lady, folks, is THE Phara horsewoman!!
> Thanks for the Congrats; I look forward to sharing the Phara bloodlines, beauty, and history with you, and others.
> 
> ALso very sad for the loss of your boy; I share you grief as I lost my girl this past January. But she inspires me every day and fuels my ongoing passion for these gorgeous creatures!
> 
> Welcome SunStar!! Look forward to your posts!


Thank you for the introduction  And I don't consider myself THE Phara Lady, just that the others don't spend as much time on the computer LOL

Dru, would you like for me to start photo sharing like I have elsewhere?


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## Calmwaters

Simply stunning horses! Thanks for the info on a beautiful breed.


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## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> Thank you for the introduction  And I don't consider myself THE Phara Lady, just that the others don't spend as much time on the computer LOL
> 
> Dru, would you like for me to start photo sharing like I have elsewhere?


Well, you are quite knowledgeable and know Annette quite well, so you are the "go to" lady in my eyes.. 

I would love for you to share your photos; they're not all available elsewhere and I know many here would very much enjoy learning about these lovely Arabians!


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

I am in love I seriously want one the flaxen mane and tails have me drooling...


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

How are their temperaments are they really hot I had a polish bred arab and he was a doll baby was so laid back and was a go with the flow kind of horse this even after all the abuse he suffered


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Dang Dru you have me really really wanting one my hubby's gonna wanna kick you in the rear.


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## Celeste

They are beautiful!!


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## Katze

I would love to know what the price range is for one of these beauties as well since I am in the market for a horse atm.


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## Cacowgirl

Absolutely beautiful! Thanks so much for sharing the information & lovely pics! Always ready to see more of these lovely animals!


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## Hidalgo13

Such a beautiful breed! How high is the stallion? How high are they usually?


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## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> How are their temperaments are they really hot I had a polish bred arab and he was a doll baby was so laid back and was a go with the flow kind of horse this even after all the abuse he suffered


They have wonderful temperaments. Golden Ecstasy as a representative of their disposition being led around by a child is not an unusual occurrence. There is a large Crabbet/CMK percentage in these horses; breeding so this is no surprise. They're known for calm, loyal, willing horses who are bred to be to dependable companions. This is one of the reasons my breeding program will incorporate Crabbet blood. Polish lines are similar.


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## Druydess

Katze said:


> I would love to know what the price range is for one of these beauties as well since I am in the market for a horse atm.


It's very hard to answer that as there aren't many to begin with, and those who have them, rarely sell them.. They do retain their price though if one is available. SunStar may know more about price ranges as she has a bit more frequent contact with Phara breeders..

I believe The Moniet Sun is for sale..
PharaFarm
Gloria is a lovely person and I'm sure would welcome an inquiry..


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## MacabreMikolaj

Just as a genetics note, of course the only color a pure Phara can be is chestnut. When you breed a chestnut to a chestnut, the ONLY possible color is chestnut. It's also why Halfingers are always flaxen chestnut. As soon as the oldest founders became chestnuts, the entire surviving line became chestnuts.

As a note, their price would the same as any other Arab - determined on show career, conformation and accomplishments of immediate relatives. Although beautiful, Crabbet lines aren't an especially coveted line of Arabians regardless of how specific and usually require accomplishments to be worth any larger sum of money.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Just as a genetics note, of course the only color a pure Phara can be is chestnut. When you breed a chestnut to a chestnut, the ONLY possible color is chestnut. It's also why Halfingers are always flaxen chestnut. As soon as the oldest founders became chestnuts, the entire surviving line became chestnuts.
> 
> As a note, their price would the same as any other Arab - determined on show career, conformation and accomplishments of immediate relatives. Although beautiful, Crabbet lines aren't an especially coveted line of Arabians regardless of how specific and usually require accomplishments to be worth any larger sum of money.


Not necessarily I think supply and demand can dictate price tags as much as anything. It also has to do with how much one is willing to pay.


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## Druydess

Hidalgo13 said:


> Such a beautiful breed! How high is the stallion? How high are they usually?


Do you mean monetarily? If so, it depends on the breeder. An old saying is that a horse is worth whatever someone's willing to pay for it. Pharas can run high, depending on the buyer and their desires. One of Golden Ecstasy's daughters sold for quite a bit and was exported to Belgium. But there are always reasonably priced Phara horses.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Druydess said:


> Do you mean monetarily? If so, it depends on the breeder. An old saying is that a horse is worth whatever someone's willing to pay for it. Pharas can run high, depending on the buyer and their desires. One of Golden Ecstasy's daughters sold for quite a bit and was exported to Belgium. But there are always reasonably priced Phara horses.


Would it also depend on the percentage of Phara in the horses more Phara would mean higher price.


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## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Would it also depend on the percentage of Phara in the horses more Phara would mean higher price.


I wouldn't think in the strictest sense, but 100% Phara bred Arabs are not very common, so they may be more. I can't think of any for sale at the moment. But the Phara blood is pretty prepotent, so even a horse who is 25% or 50% will most likely exhibit their characteristics and temperament. SunStar would probably be a better resource for this question.

Here's a pic of Golden Ecstasy's daughter, exported to Belgium and I would think she's about 25% Phara, though SunStar can be more accurate. You can see the consistency in the Phara breeding. She is also the daughter of Echo Empress, one of my new additions.


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## SunStarArabians

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> How are their temperaments are they really hot I had a polish bred arab and he was a doll baby was so laid back and was a go with the flow kind of horse this even after all the abuse he suffered


I have owned alot of horses, and have worked with many breeds. Of the Phara Arabians I have had the pleasure of owning Sun Diamonds, The Golden Sun aka Pharao, Shizanas Legacy K, and Wings of Gold and have had the pleasure of playing with The Sun Heiress, The Sun Prince, Burgundy Sun, Sun Rose Beauty, The Moniet Sun, and his younger brother The Ebony Sun. All have been "in your tent" horses. The Sun Prince and Burgundy Sun absolutely dote on Annette. Sun Diamonds practically tripped over herself to get to kids and ALL of mine will have broken hearts if you do not bring company out to pet them 

There is a reason that Phara Arabians are rarely for sale, and that is because their owners do not wish to part with them! They are simply the best for my own personal taste.


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## SunStarArabians

Katze said:


> I would love to know what the price range is for one of these beauties as well since I am in the market for a horse atm.


There is a stallion quality colt available at the moment, The Moniet Sun. Sired by The Sun Prince and out of Kyobi Rihma (also dam to Dru's Obsidian). His weanling picture is below.

Price is determined by each owner but I'll gladly share my own experiences...I bought Sun Diamonds (unbroke, never been tied, trailered once in her life prior to shipping) for $10K, her weanling colt sold for $8K, and my own The Golden Sun was sold as a weanling for $15K.

The colt below is listed as private treaty so I have no idea what price his owner is asking...although if someone else doesn't hurry and buy him I am going to be forced to LOL


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## SunStarArabians

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Not necessarily I think supply and demand can dictate price tags as much as anything. It also has to do with how much one is willing to pay.


And believe me, you'd be willing to pay the price...so far I haven't found any takers on my left arm to raise more money :lol:


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## SunStarArabians

*A day late...*



Druydess said:


> I wouldn't think in the strictest sense, but 100% Phara bred Arabs are not very common, so they may be more. I can't think of any for sale at the moment. But the Phara blood is pretty prepotent, so even a horse who is 25% or 50% will most likely exhibit their characteristics and temperament. SunStar would probably be a better resource for this question.
> 
> Here's a pic of Golden Ecstasy's daughter, exported to Belgium and I would think she's about 25% Phara, though SunStar can be more accurate. You can see the consistency in the Phara breeding. She is also the daughter of Echo Empress, one of my new additions.


I just missed out on adding Oooh La La to our herd, but it must have been fate as we made another addition instead  I'm glad that she want to a loving home, but also sad that she is overseas and unable to contribute back to the Phara gene pool here in the states. And if I remember correctly she was right around $7500-$8500 asking price...

P.S...yes, she is 25% Phara through her 50% sire, Golden Ecstasy. Golden Ecstasy's dam is considered 100% Phara as Annette kept her full sister for the Phara breeding program.


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## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> I just missed out on adding Oooh La La to our herd, but it must have been fate as we made another addition instead  I'm glad that she want to a loving home, but also sad that she is overseas and unable to contribute back to the Phara gene pool here in the states. And if I remember correctly she was right around $7500-$8500 asking price...


If she were still here, I'd buy her up in a minute!!:wink: 
She inherited her Daddy's explosive trot too!!


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## SunStarArabians

*Oooh La La*



Druydess said:


> If she were still here, I'd buy her up in a minute!!:wink:
> She inherited her Daddy's explosive trot too!!


I would have been thrilled with that arrangement!!


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## SunStarArabians

Sheetan said:


> So what do you do with a horse that costs that much money? Do people collect them just to say that they have them? Do you make money with them? With them costing that much it seems like it would be very hard to make any money back from them.


When looking for breeding animals, and only speaking for myself, but when it comes to the right individual price is not an issue.


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## Alwaysbehind

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Not necessarily I think supply and demand can dictate price tags as much as anything. It also has to do with how much one is willing to pay.


This is true with any sale of any item. Not something special to horses or any specific breed or line of horses.

Think Pet Rocks. They are the best example of supply and demand and something being worth what someone is willing to pay.


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## Hidalgo13

> Do you mean monetarily?


SOrry I meant how high as in height. I'm not sure if it's just me, or if this sort of arabian seems to be a little taller than most. I like taller arabians so I was curious to know if they come more in the 15, 15.2, 15.3 range, than in 14, 14.2.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Alwaysbehind said:


> This is true with any sale of any item. Not something special to horses or any specific breed or line of horses.
> 
> Think Pet Rocks. They are the best example of supply and demand and something being worth what someone is willing to pay.


.had you heard of these arabs before now? I havent and it seems by these replies here many hadnt either I looked on the site only a handful of breeders none that I seen had anything for sale the supply imo is low therefore they could carry a price as high as they wanted whether theyed get it would be up to what some ones willing to pay.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

You know what I find funny....Dru took her arab stuff to a new thread to continue on the arab discussion to remove herself from the drama and nonsense. this thread was going along nice..then some one took a pot shot at her horses confirmation..even though this isnt the conformation critiquing section..then when that didnt work in getting a rise from her in come the rest with their comments I love how when certain posters follow...er stalk a person in an effort to discredit and attack their every thought or post yet they are never reprimanded for it but when they are called on it this forum likes to smack the person standing up for themselves but hey its all good right.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

LuvMy, did you notice I quoted someone and responded directly to what they said.

I was simply making the point that what they said applies to the sale of Everything Everywhere.

Period.

That is a point that is not disputable. Not sure why you are trying to say otherwise.


No need to go off on me about how special these horses are in your mind.


ETA - saw you posted another post while I was posting (not sure the need for a double post, edit does work).

You seem to be the one making drama here. I still believe there is a conformation issue and discussions of conformation issues are allowed in thread promoting stallions.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Alwaysbehind said:


> LuvMy, did you notice I quoted someone and responded directly to what they said.
> 
> I was simply making the point that what they said applies to the sale of Everything Everywhere.
> 
> Period.
> 
> That is a point that is not disputable. Not sure why you are trying to say otherwise.
> 
> 
> No need to go off on me about how special these horses are in your mind.
> 
> 
> ETA - saw you posted another post while I was posting (not sure the need for a double post, edit does work).
> 
> You seem to be the one making drama here. I still believe there is a conformation issue and discussions of conformation issues are allowed in thread promoting stallions.


**** yea thats it.


----------



## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> .had you heard of these arabs before now? I havent and it seems by these replies here many hadnt either I looked on the site only a handful of breeders none that I seen had anything for sale the supply imo is low therefore they could carry a price as high as they wanted whether theyed get it would be up to what some ones willing to pay.


Good point. There aren't many it's true. I believe in part due to them not being a "flavor of the month" type- therefore they don't have an opportunity to flood the market, and also because people just tend to hang onto them as they are fantastic horses.


----------



## Mike_User

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I love how when certain posters follow...er stalk a person in an effort to discredit and attack their every thought or post yet they are never reprimanded for it but when they are called on it this forum likes to smack the person standing up for themselves but hey its all good right.


I'm not sure you have an accurate understanding of the way the issues you are referring to have played out here, but that's another matter.

Alwaysbehind's pointing out that the laws of supply and demand apply to any item for sale in response to your post is in no way an attack on Druydess or anyone else, and your characterizing it as such only serves to unnecessarily propagate the issue we have worked hard to address. 

The fact of the matter is that not every post here will consist of unadulterated flattery, but that does not mean said posts amount to harassment or stalking, or are otherwise illegitimate. The Horse Forum is a place for intelligent, mature people, and intelligent, mature people ask questions, disagree, etc.

That said, if we notice a pattern of pursuit such that it's clear a member is purposely trying to antagonize another, we will address it as we have been. If you come across a post you think may be problematic, you are to report it so that the Horse Forum Team can make a determination of whether to address it and how, and not lash out against a member and make matters worse.

Also, Alwaysbehind may not have sent flowers along with her reply to you, but it was at least a substantive response to what you had to say to her. Your reply, on the other hand,



LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> **** yea thats it.


, was not. If you would like to see _less_ conflict and animosity here as your posts suggest you would, lashing out at members and posting replies like this is not a great way to go about it. 

Please be conscientious about the impact your own posts have on the community going forward, and report posts you find to be problematic so that the Horse Forum Team can evaluate and address them if necessary.


----------



## Druydess

Hidalgo13 said:


> SOrry I meant how high as in height. I'm not sure if it's just me, or if this sort of arabian seems to be a little taller than most. I like taller arabians so I was curious to know if they come more in the 15, 15.2, 15.3 range, than in 14, 14.2.


Sorry, I wasn't sure..
Yes, they do tend to be a bit on the taller side I believe. Also.they have great bone, which makes them appear bigger. Golden Ecstasy and Obsidian both have massive cannons. Most are 15HH and above to my knowledge, though I'm sure you'll always have shorter horses.


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## Hidalgo13

Wonderful!  My dream arab right there. I like it when they are taller and appear a bit more sturdy. Even though I know they are strong I cannot help feeling the Polish bred ones, although they are gorgeous, will snap like a twig because they have such tiny, fine legs.


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## Druydess

Here's a little bit of info about the Lewisfield Sun God, the beginning of this line, who was lost tragically young. 

Lewisfield Sun God #21194
by Gaye Schaufus-Myers
(originally printed in Arabian Visions 
Nov - Dec '95 issue)

This is Sun God's story - a legendary stallion whose memory has not diminished in the hearts and minds of a handful of Arabian breeders seeking to preserve this blood.

Lewisfield Sun God was born on April 27th, 1962, bred by James F. Lewis, Jr. of Lewisfield Farms in Charlottesville, Virginia. Sun God was the result of a full brother and full sister mating, making him a double *Raffles grandson.

The rest can be found here on Sunh-Kyst Arabians, one of the few Phara Breeders. 
Sunh-Kyst Arabians

There are some great photos of many of the Phara horses on this site and one can see the prepotency of Sun God in his progeny..


----------



## Druydess

Hidalgo13 said:


> Wonderful!  My dream arab right there. I like it when they are taller and appear a bit more sturdy. Even though I know they are strong I cannot help feeling the Polish bred ones, although they are gorgeous, will snap like a twig because they have such tiny, fine legs.


Being from Crabbet stock, they tend to be more sturdy, most Crabbets are, from this line or others. Lady Blunt seemed to favor the stockier types, or at least choose those with substance, as well as beauty. Polish can go either way, my Polish mares range from lighter boned to tank-lol..:wink: 

The Moniet Sun should be good sized- his Dam is the Dam of Gold N Obsidian, and he's stocky, tall, and has great bone. She is 15.2. She throws size and refinement. SunStar can speak to his Sire, The Sun Prince, as I haven't seen him in person.


----------



## HGEsquire

I remember the Lewisfield horses well! They were bred and raised only a 1.5 hour away and were ALL the rave at our local 'A' shows.

Jim Lewis imported the horse *Touch of Magic from Crabbet stud who in turned sired the awesome producer Touch of Fantasy, the dam of Cinco Bey, HG Esquire+'s grandsire as well as being the dam of Cinco Bey's full sister, Bey Magic, who produced the Regional, National, and Scottsdale winning stallion Shaklan Bey.

Although the above are not Phara horses the relationship to the originator Jim Lewis is important as he truly was a visionary when it came to breeding Arabian horses. Sad to pass the farm now and there are no Arabian horses gracing the fields as there once were !~ 

Denise Gainey


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Lewisfield/Ben Hur in Phara Arabians*



HGEsquire said:


> I remember the Lewisfield horses well! They were bred and raised only a 1.5 hour away and were ALL the rave at our local 'A' shows.
> 
> Jim Lewis imported the horse *Touch of Magic from Crabbet stud who in turned sired the awesome producer Touch of Fantasy, the dam of Cinco Bey, HG Esquire+'s grandsire as well as being the dam of Cinco Bey's full sister, Bey Magic, who produced the Regional, National, and Scottsdale winning stallion Shaklan Bey.
> 
> Although the above are not Phara horses the relationship to the originator Jim Lewis is important as he truly was a visionary when it came to breeding Arabian horses. Sad to pass the farm now and there are no Arabian horses gracing the fields as there once were !~
> 
> Denise Gainey


How cool is that Denise?! It must be terrible to drive by and see an empty farm. Oh how I wish that I had been able to see in person some of the greats that were before my time. Did you get to see many of the Lewisfield horses?

Just on a side note...although Lewisfield Sun God is "Lewisfield" I consider him Ben Hur as both sire and dam were bred by Ben Hur and they are the ones that did the double "Aa" horse breeding.


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Size and Phara Arabians*



Druydess said:


> Being from Crabbet stock, they tend to be more sturdy, most Crabbets are, from this line or others. Lady Blunt seemed to favor the stockier types, or at least choose those with substance, as well as beauty. Polish can go either way, my Polish mares range from lighter boned to tank-lol..:wink:
> 
> The Moniet Sun should be good sized- his Dam is the Dam of Gold N Obsidian, and he's stocky, tall, and has great bone. She is 15.2. She throws size and refinement. SunStar can speak to his Sire, The Sun Prince, as I haven't seen him in person.


The Sun Prince
Burgundy Sun
The Sun Heiress all three siblings are at least 15hh and I would say close to 15.2hh.

Wings of Gold is about 15.1hh as was Majestic Sun and his sire. Sun Diamonds and The Golden Sun are both about 14.3hh which is my cup of tea  So it just depends on the individual.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

This is the arab I had alot of old blood in him Kt La Drifter Arabian loved that horse.


----------



## HGEsquire

SunStarArabians said:


> How cool is that Denise?! It must be terrible to drive by and see an empty farm. Oh how I wish that I had been able to see in person some of the greats that were before my time. *Did you get to see many of the Lewisfield horses?*
> 
> Just on a side note...although Lewisfield Sun God is "Lewisfield" I consider him Ben Hur as both sire and dam were bred by Ben Hur and they are the ones that did the double "Aa" horse breeding.


I sure did ~ they were plentiful here in my area since the breeding farm was basically in our back yard so to speak. And the shows mostly were held at the State Fairgrounds (Back in the day ~ dating myself I know) which were in Richmond. 

In fact, one of Esquire+'s kids are out of a daughter of Lewisfield Jingle who was bred by Jim Lewis 

Denise Gainey


----------



## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> This is the arab I had alot of old blood in him Kt La Drifter Arabian loved that horse.


Very nice old classic breeding on that horse!


----------



## Druydess

HGEsquire said:


> I sure did ~ they were plentiful here in my area since the breeding farm was basically in our back yard so to speak. And the shows mostly were held at the State Fairgrounds (Back in the day ~ dating myself I know) which were in Richmond.
> 
> In fact, one of Esquire+'s kids are out of a daughter of Lewisfield Jingle who was bred by Jim Lewis
> 
> Denise Gainey


Denise, if you like, post more on that breeding- sounds interesting..
Also, any other info about Lewisfield I'm sure would be most welcome..


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Yes he was such a doll I regret rehoming him he would have been perfect for Madison.


----------



## Druydess

Folks, I'm off for 3 days showing, and I will miss this thread- it's so interesting, but I didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring them for lack of reply.. will be back Sunday night. Going to the Sport Horse Competition and have to run.. I'm sure SunStar and Denise will keep everyone well informed..  and I look forward to catching up when I get back! 
Take care all..


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Lewisfield Jingle*



HGEsquire said:


> I sure did ~ they were plentiful here in my area since the breeding farm was basically in our back yard so to speak. And the shows mostly were held at the State Fairgrounds (Back in the day ~ dating myself I know) which were in Richmond.
> 
> In fact, one of Esquire+'s kids are out of a daughter of *Lewisfield Jingle* who was bred by Jim Lewis
> 
> Denise Gainey


Absolutely drooling over that pedigree...any pics of her daughter and E's kid??


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Good luck at the show!*



Druydess said:


> Folks, I'm off for 3 days showing, and I will miss this thread- it's so interesting, but I didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring them for lack of reply.. will be back Sunday night. Going to the Sport Horse Competition and have to run.. I'm sure SunStar and Denise will keep everyone well informed..  and I look forward to catching up when I get back!
> Take care all..


Best of luck at the show Dru and of course, photos are expected


----------



## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> Best of luck at the show Dru and of course, photos are expected


Thank you so much girl!! We are all quite excited.! Still getting some cells from the hurricane, so hopefully we will still show successfully.. and if we do, there WILL be photos!! :wink:


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

This is interesting Horses Domesticated 9,000 Years Ago in Saudi Arabia : Discovery News


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Weekend Show*



Druydess said:


> Thank you so much girl!! We are all quite excited.! Still getting some cells from the hurricane, so hopefully we will still show successfully.. and if we do, there WILL be photos!! :wink:


Ah! I ha meant to ask if you were int he path of that trouble...well then, best of luck at the show AND with the weather cooperating 

I'll be starting the photo sharing now...


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Phara Heritage Society*

OK folks, here we go...

This text is taken from the PharaHeritageSociety.com website.

*H**ow the Phara Heritage Society came to be . . .*

Many of you are familiar with the Phara horses, and just as many of you or more have no idea what a Phara Arabian is.

The Phara horses are the culmination of a dream inspired by the great Lewisfield Sun God (Aaraf by *Raffles x Aarafa by *Raffles). Back in the 1960's this dream began when Annette Patti was searching for her "ideal" specimen of the Arabian horse. At this time there were many imports coming to the States as well as many Saddlebred trainers transitioning into training/showing Arabian horses. Annette was extremely disillusioned at the direction our breed seemed to be going - moving from a classic, typey Arabian to a horse that more closely resembled the movement, size and look of the Saddlebred. Her search ended in 1964 at the Texas Fall Show in Dallas where the 1964 National Championships were being held. In the arena stood a colt that to her represented the ideal most classic Arabian - Lewisfield Sun God (who was only a yearling at the time).

Annette tried several times, unsuccessfully, to purchase Sun God from his owner James Lewis Jr., but Sun God was not for sale at any price. Seeing him the first time that day in 1964 changed Annette's life forever - and since she could not have Sun God himself she made it her mission from that day forward to focus her breeding program on recreating her own Sun God. She began by purchasing the best Sun God daughters (Lewisfield Sun God died tragically at 7 years of age, leaving only 24 foals), a full sibling to Sun God, and horses closely-related to Sun God. That dream has been her reality for the past 44 years - in which time she has bred 100 foals carrying the lines of Lewisfield Sun God and closely resembling him in conformation and type. These horses have made their own legacy - the Arabian horses of Phara Farm.

*W**hat makes a Phara Arabian so special?*

The Phara Arabian is easily recognized by several prepotent physical characteristics: their world-renowned extreme jibbahs, expressive round eyes and fabled teacup muzzles. In addition to their extreme type the 100% Phara Arabian is chestnut in body color (with a select few exceptions in the early years of the program), ranging from golden chestnut to purple, nearly black, chestnut. Mane and tail color are often flaxen, ranging from silver-white to orange flaxen locks. _Classic children of the sun, their distinctive beauty is unforgettable._

In disposition the Phara Arabian is truly a horse worthy of its Bedouin ancestors. Exhibiting loyal, loving dispositions that desire human companionship, the Phara Arabian is gentle to handle and easy to train. They possess a hearty work ethic and live to please.

The Phara Heritage Society was created as an organization to celebrate the Phara horses. This organization is not only for those who love and appreciate 100% Phara horses, but ALL horses containing any percentage of Phara blood.

There is an in-depth article on Annette and the Phara horses in the February/March 2008 issue of the Modern Arabian Horse magazine - finally these horses are getting some much-deserved recognition and will hopefully be "rediscovered" by those who have forgotten about them as well as "newly discovered" by those who were not previously aware of them.


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Lewisfield Sun God*

Lewisfield Sun God from the PharaHeritageSociety.com website...

*Aaraf x Aarafa
1962 Chestnut Stallion*

Lewisfield Sun God was born in 1962 at the farm of James F. Lewis Jr. in Charlottesville, Virginia. Lewisfield Arabians, formally established in 1960 (though the Lewis's had owned Arabians since 1946) was clear in their breeding goal - their desire was to breed an elegant horse of good height with a beautiful Arabian head, straight legs, and good action at the trot *and* all other gaits - a description they modeled after the horses of the Crabbet Arabian Stud (namely, Indian Magic). Modern Crabbet breeding at its best, termed by the Lewis's as the "Lewisfield look." 

The Lewis's purchased their first group of horses for their program from the famed Ben Hur stud (owned by Blanche M. and Herbert V. Tormohlen) in Portland, Indiana. Included in this first group purchase were the full brother and sister, Aaraf and Aarafa, both champions, sired by *Raffles and out of Aarah. The Lewis's bred Aarafa to her full brother in 1961, and on April 27, 1962, a magnificent colt was born, a colt whose impact could not yet be known. This colt was Lewisfield Sun God, an exquisite individual in every way and for many represented the epitome of Arabian type. Sun God had a brilliant show career, winning show after show in halter and becoming known as "the unbeatable Lewisfield Sun God." He would have undoubtedly gone on to become National Champion Stallion had tragedy not struck. In 1965 at only three years of age Sun God foundered, thus ending his brilliant show career. Lewisfield Sun God sired only 24 foals before having to be euthanized in 1969 as a result of founder. 

But the story of Lewisfield Sun God does not end with his death. In fact, an entirely new chapter began when Lewisfield Sun God was just a yearling . . . .

Annette Patti had, from her earliest memory, been mesmerized by artistic renditions of Arabian horses. She knew what she wanted in an Arabian but was not to find that mesmerizing quality in life form until 1963. In 1962, Annette had been showing her stallion Selmajor (Umar Al-Khayyam x Selmiana), who had proven himself unbeatable in halter. Selmajor was a beautifully conformed stallion with an impressive high tail carriage - Annette could fault him only in that his head was somewhat plain. That year he won 16 Championships including Grand Champion Stallion of the Illinois All-Arabian show, which qualified him to show at the 1963 Nationals in Dallas, Texas. It was at this show that Annette's future with Arabian horses would forever be changed. 

Watching the yearling colt class at the Nationals in 1963 the Patti's noticed a small chestnut colt. He did not fit in with the growthy, showy yearlings in his class, but he was so breathtakingly beautiful they could not take their eyes off him. His handler had stood the colt in a spot in the coliseum where the sun streamed in from a skylight illuminating his golden chestnut coat while clearly defining the intricately sculptured head and smooth, extra refined conformation. The colt appeared unconcerned with the excitement around him - he had a serene, regal air. Knowing that you can never go only by what you see of a horse in the ring the Patti's later went to see the colt at the Lewisfield stalls. 

Always before when impressed with a horse in the ring and later seeing them relaxed in their stall the Patti's had been disappointed; invariably the beauty of the horses in the show ring disappeared when they stood relaxed in their stalls. Not so with Lewisfield Sun God, for he was in fact more beautiful standing quietly in his stall than he was in the show ring. It was at this moment that Annette knew she had found the horse of her childhood dreams - a horse that in life form was as mesmerizing as the most beautiful artistic rendition she had admired. 

The Patti's made an attempt to purchase Lewisfield Sun God, but soon learned that he was a favorite at Lewisfield and that there was no possibility whatsoever of him being sold. So, coupled with the joy of finally finding what they were looking for came the disheartenment of knowing they could never own him. Fortunately, however, since the colt was the product of inbreeding, the direction was quite clear. They would search for horses of *Raffles/Aarah breeding with the most classical qualities they could find, and would try to duplicate this Lewisfield Sun God. 




































Lewisfield Bold Hawk (left) and Lewisfield Sun God (right)


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## SunStarArabians

*Golden Pharao (originally named Ibn La Flag)*

Golden Pharao (La Flag x Bint Maaroufa) text taken from the PharaHeritageSociety.com website...

To put the Phara Farm breeding program together the Patti’s had to find the best possible individuals with similar breeding. Since Lewisfield Sun God was the product of inbreeding the full siblings, Aaraf and Aarafa by *Raffles (Skowronek x *Rifala) and out of Aarah (Ghadaf x Nadirat), they began their search looking for a horse of this breeding with the most classical characteristics they could find. The Patti’s visited farm after farm, stopping all across the country to see every horse they could with similar lines. After months of searching and still not finding what they were looking for, they visited the La Rue’s in Indiana. There the Patti’s saw a yearling colt that was for sale who was an Aaraf grandson. Even though his dam line was not what the Patti’s were looking for, this colt was EXCEPTIONAL and had every one of the qualities they were looking for. This colt, originally named Ibn La Flag, was purchased by the Patti’s and renamed Golden Pharao. 

Golden Pharao’s show career began with him winning his first time out - a two-year-old being shown against Champions and sons of Champions. At the Wisconsin State Arabian Show the judge took a good look at Golden Pharao, and, after walking away from him came back to look at him again. He spent an unusually long time looking at Golden Pharao’s head, and finally ran his hand down Golden Pharao’s foreface, taking note of his extreme jibbah. The judge was obviously impressed (not just with Golden Pharao’s head) and needless to say Golden Pharao did very well at that show. In fact, Golden Pharao seemed to win at every show he went to - he was truly a great show horse, he loved to be in the arena. Golden Pharao attracted a huge following right from the get-go. 

Golden Pharao made a lasting impression on everyone who met or knew him. He was genuine - a good guy, a fun horse to be around, a real sweetheart. In whole, Golden Pharao was an excellent individual - he had incredible sensibility, always knew what you wanted before you asked him. In the eyes of his long-time owner/trainer Annette Weber, Golden Pharao really set the standard, and a high one at that - as an individual, a show horse, and as a sire.














































Painting of Annette and Golden Pharao exiting a show...


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Aazkafra*

Aazkafra (Aaraf x Aazkara) text taken from the PharaHeritageSociety.com website...

After finding Golden Pharao the Patti’s continued their search - this time for a mare related to Lewisfield Sun God that would also fit their strict guidelines for conformation and type. In time they would find Aazkafra - an exquisite mare bred by Ben Hur. She had been sold to Lewisfield in a package of horses (one of the youngest mares Ben Hur had ever sold to Lewisfield), and the Patti’s first saw her at Heritage Hills, who had acquired her from Lewisfield. She looked amazingly like Sun God - she had a beautiful head, four white stockings, and some roaning in her coat. Annette was quite taken with her, and knew that she had to have her. It took some maneuvering, but finally Annette was able to acquire her. 

Aazkafra was a mare of great beauty and motion. There was no comparison to Aazkafra’s extreme, sensational action - her movement was extraordinary. In addition to her glorious beauty and breathtaking way of moving, Aazkafra was so very smart. Annette remembers how once a gate had accidentally been left open and she came walking out of the barn with one of her foals. Annette called to her out of the window to get back into the barn, and Aazkafra simply turned around and went straight back into her stall. On another occasion, even though Aazkafra had not been trained to ride, Annette decided to take her riding with some friends. Annette put a bridle on Aazkafra and rode her bareback, the mare willingly went along with the others without issue. 

But Aazkafra is remembered most not for her stunning appearance, phenomenal movement, or for how smart she was, but for the amazing results that came from breeding her to Golden Pharao. This was truly a golden cross, as the resulting foals would stand out for decades to come not only as individuals, but even more so as superior breeding horses through future generations. 

There were three foals from this cross - all were double Aaraf and triple Aarah: Golden Reflection (chestnut stallion foaled February 6, 1968), Phara Lucia (chestnut mare foaled March 18, 1970), and Golden Cavalier (chestnut stallion foaled March 24, 1971). 

The first foal from this cross, Golden Reflection, was the first born foal of the Patti’s new breeding program - Phara Farm.


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Golden Reflection*

Golden Reflection (Golden Pharao x Aazkafra) 1968 stallion - text taken from the PharaHeritageSociety.com website...

The very most highly anticipated of all Phara foals to be born was Aazkafra's 1968 foal by Golden Pharao. With this foal we would know if the years spent planning our breeding program would be a success or a disappointing failure. This would be one of Golden Pharao's first foals, and though he had already started winning in the show ring as a two and three year old, we knew that even the best of show horses does not necessarily make the best of sires. And as to Aazkafra, though she was a treasure of a mare, Ben Hur bred, extremely beautiful and perfectly bred for our plan, she had no record as a producer.

Golden Reflection was born prematurely on a subzero February day at our Wisconsin farm, he had been born upside down in a corner manger and was very weak and soon contracted severe pneumonia. The vets gave us little hope for his survival. He was too weak to stand and nurse, so I stayed with them in the stall for many days, lifting him up to nurse until he began to gain some strength and began to nurse on his own. Then a leg injury gave him another serious setback. Despite all of these obstacles, he was growing into the gorgeous colt we had dreamed of and by the time he was 4 months old I had the unforgettable pleasure of taking him into his first show and bringing him out the winner of his first Wisconsin Futurity. He would go on to win all of his Wisconsin Futurity classes and later he would win many Class A Stallion Championships, and most importantly, his foals were breathtakingly beautiful and many of them were show champions as well.

This young stallion had proven to reflect the incredible great beautiful Arabians in his ancestry ~~ he was truly a 
GOLDEN REFLECTION.


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## WildJessie

I love these pictures!


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## SunStarArabians

*Thanks!*



WildJessie said:


> I love these pictures!


Thanks  Glad to hear it!! The Phara Arabian really has been overlooked the last decade, but deserves the attention.


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## Cecelia Roscow

Druydess said:


> Hey - thanks girl- he has been loafing this summer.. but he is as manly as ever..lol..
> 
> But here's another one..



It's really very beautiful and I even heard that this horses are very muscular though, and also heard that they get angry very soon, is that right?:?


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## LOL4equine

I never knew Phara Arabians existed. I love their coloring. More people need to know about them.


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## Speed Racer

LOL4equine said:


> I never knew Phara Arabians existed. I love their coloring. More people need to know about them.


Sabino chestnut Arabians aren't exactly rare, so I'm not sure why you think they're so amazingly wonderful that 'more people need to know about them'. 

These horses are lovely, but so are many other well bred Arabians. Except for a small contingent of people, Arabians aren't popular anymore, so breeders need to consider to whom they'll be marketing their horses. Color is the _least_ important thing when breeding. Athleticism, temperament, correct conformation, and soundness are far more important.

Concentrating on a particular bloodline isn't something new, and the Al Khamsa people have been doing it for years. Heck, anyone with a_ good_ breeding program usually concentrates on one or two particular bloodlines to make sure they're throwing the type of horses they want, for the market to which they're trying to sell.

No breed, no matter how versatile, can do everything well. Arabians have their faults and shortcomings just like every other horse out there. I love the breed and have owned them for 33 years, but I don't buy into all the hype.


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## SunStarArabians

*Phara Arabians and their temperaments*



Cecelia Roscow said:


> It's really very beautiful and I even heard that this horses are very muscular though, and also heard that they get angry very soon, is that right?:?


Cecelia, the Phara Arabians are extremely sweet horses. I have yet to see any one of them get 'angry' so cannot imagine where you might have heard this. They do, however, pout if you don't pet them!!


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## SunStarArabians

*Phara Arabian coloring*



LOL4equine said:


> I never knew Phara Arabians existed. I love their coloring. More people need to know about them.


The coloring is a result of many generations of the Phara Arabians being chestnut. 6 generations of breeding chestnuts together means that the only color you will get is some shade of chestnut (when talking about pure Phara Arabians). 

There is much more to the Phara Arabian than their wonderful shades of golden


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Phara Arabians*



Speed Racer said:


> Sabino chestnut Arabians aren't exactly rare, so I'm not sure why you think they're so amazingly wonderful that 'more people need to know about them'.
> 
> These horses are lovely, but so are many other well bred Arabians. Except for a small contingent of people, Arabians aren't popular anymore, so breeders need to consider to whom they'll be marketing their horses. Color is the _least_ important thing when breeding. Athleticism, temperament, correct conformation, and soundness are far more important.
> 
> Concentrating on a particular bloodline isn't something new, and the Al Khamsa people have been doing it for years. Heck, anyone with a_ good_ breeding program usually concentrates on one or two particular bloodlines to make sure they're throwing the type of horses they want, for the market to which they're trying to sell.
> 
> No breed, no matter how versatile, can do everything well. Arabians have their faults and shortcomings just like every other horse out there. I love the breed and have owned them for 33 years, but I don't buy into all the hype.


It is not just the Al Khamsa breeders that have been focusing on a special bloodline, there are many groups that work to preserve their own chosen bloodline. That is what I and others are doing with the Phara Arabian.


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## bubba13

SunStarArabians said:


> It is not just the Al Khamsa breeders that have been focusing on a special bloodline, there are many groups that work to preserve their own chosen bloodline. That is what I and others are doing with the Phara Arabian.


So now I will ask:

What is so desirable about this filly's conformation?










She has a very short, possibly ewe neck, a weaker-looking back, and a Quarter Horse rump. The lack of flatness to the croup seems to be a characteristic of a lot of these horses, which really seems to go against the Arabian breed standard at large. I also noticed that many of the stallions shown in this thread tend to stand under themselves (not just their stance for halter--their natural conformation) and have mild calf knees. How do they fare, soundness-wise, under heavy athletic work / riding?


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## kitten_Val

Just a reminder to stay on track and NOT to bring personal drama/name calling into the thread. Also asking other people not to post/leave the thread is NOT a way to go because it's a PUBLIC forum (given posts are polite and on topic of course).


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## Druydess

LOL4equine said:


> I never knew Phara Arabians existed. I love their coloring. More people need to know about them.


I agree. It's a lovely line that would, I'm sure, be more appreciated and admired if more people had knowledge of it.


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## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> It is not just the Al Khamsa breeders that have been focusing on a special bloodline, there are many groups that work to preserve their own chosen bloodline. That is what I and others are doing with the Phara Arabian.


And it's high time too.. :wink: These horses have been "hidden" for too long. I'd much rather put my time in preserving horses like these than pursue whatever the flavor of the month is.


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## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> Ah! I ha meant to ask if you were int he path of that trouble...well then, best of luck at the show AND with the weather cooperating
> 
> I'll be starting the photo sharing now...


Thank you- the luck was very good! :wink:
Well, the hurricane stayed away, but it was blisteringly hot. In spite of that, we did VERY well, and we more than qualified for Regionals, and yes there will be photos; I'll start one under the showing thread. 
I've been catching up on your posts SunStar, and as always, they are amazingly informative. Love learning about the Phara history!!


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## Allison Finch

I am glad to see the ignore function being used so effectively. Hopefully, the lack of response to people who seem to STILL try to demean the OP, will cause them to tire and simply go away. At least one of the people attacking here is a bit of a disappointment to me. If you don't like this thread and only seek to destroy it, please refrain from reading/posting.


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## NdAppy

bubba13 said:


> So now I will ask:
> 
> What is so desirable about this filly's conformation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She has a very short, possibly ewe neck, a weaker-looking back, and a Quarter Horse rump. The lack of flatness to the croup seems to be a characteristic of a lot of these horses, which really seems to go against the Arabian breed standard at large. I also noticed that many of the stallions shown in this thread tend to stand under themselves (not just their stance for halter--their natural conformation) and have mild calf knees. How do they fare, soundness-wise, under heavy athletic work / riding?


Very interesting question. I would love to hear what the breeders have to say about this. Personally the horses posted look like finer bred quarter horses to me than they do arabians. :think:


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## amp23

NdAppy said:


> Very interesting question. I would love to hear what the breeders have to say about this. Personally the horses posted look like finer bred quarter horses to me than they do arabians. :think:


Agreed. I've been reading this thread and not posting, but I've been wondering everything that has been asked about, conformation wise, etc. I have only personally known one Arabian so I am by no means an expert on Arabians but I do want to learn more. 

I think the horse is gorgeous, but every horse does has flaws so I'm interested to see the answers to the questions asked.


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## Druydess

amp23 said:


> Agreed. I've been reading this thread and not posting, but I've been wondering everything that has been asked about, conformation wise, etc. I have only personally known one Arabian so I am by no means an expert on Arabians but I do want to learn more.
> 
> I think the horse is gorgeous, but every horse does has flaws so I'm interested to see the answers to the questions asked.


This filly was a long yearling in the photo and certainly not fully grown. She has no issues as stated, and went on to be exported to Belgium. Crabbet-bred Arabs, which Pharas are, tend to have more bone and substance than what is considered popular with some Arabian breeders. There is much variation among the different strains/lines. And Pharas are not your typical flavor of the month Arabian. Not every breeder is interested in breeding for the same thing, so there will be variations in a horse's "look."


----------



## Druydess

Cecelia Roscow said:


> It's really very beautiful and I even heard that this horses are very muscular though, and also heard that they get angry very soon, is that right?:?



They are very muscular; it's typically one of the Phara traits, but I have not heard of disposition issues. My stallion is very sweet and kind, and loves attention.


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## Druydess

SunStar, do you have any pics or info on Lewisfield Jingle that Denise mentioned earlier? I can't find anything.
Here's his pedigree:
Lewisfield Jingle Arabian


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## WildJessie

What mean posts? I guess they have been deleted.

Well more room for pretty photos!


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## Alwaysbehind

Allison Finch said:


> Hopefully, the lack of response to people who seem to STILL try to demean the OP, will cause them to tire and simply go away. At least one of the people attacking here is a bit of a disappointment to me. If you don't like this thread and only seek to destroy it, please refrain from reading/posting.


I am disappointed that some people think just because questions are asked they are trying to demean anyone. Questions are asked in every thread. That is the point of the BB. Do you decide that questions, real questions, that appear in every other thread are there to demean someone?


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Alwaysbehind said:


> I am disappointed that some people think just because questions are asked they are trying to demean anyone. Questions are asked in every thread. That is the point of the BB. Do you decide that questions, real questions, that appear in every other thread are there to demean someone?


Does BB stand for breeding board? If so this is the horse breeds board unless theres two threads for this topic.


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## ShutUpJoe

I believe BB is the actual forum...


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## Speed Racer

ShutUpJoe said:


> I believe BB is the actual forum...


Yes, BB stands for 'bulletin board', which means the whole of Horse Forum.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

ShutUpJoe said:


> I believe BB is the actual forum...


Oh ok I never have actually seen the name of the forum. Thank's


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## Alwaysbehind

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Oh ok I never have actually seen the name of the forum. Thank's


It is not the NAME of the forum.

As SR said, it stands for Bulletin Board which is a common term for forums such as this.


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## Druydess

To get back to the topic- here's another of Golden Ecstasy:










And a few of his daughter as a coming 2 year old, a full sister to Obsidian:










I think she's younger here:


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Nice eye candy are you trying to get me divorced lol


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## NdAppy

Druydess said:


> ...
> 
> And a few of his daughter as a coming 2 year old, a full sister to Obsidian:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it wasn't said that this horse was an arabian, there is nothing to point out to me characteristic wise that she is. IMO, once again she looks like a quarter or quarter cross, not a purebred arabian. She does not have the breed characteristics IMPO.


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## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Nice eye candy are you trying to get me divorced lol


LOL- too funny- maybe if you sneak one in he won't notice.. :wink:..I'll have to go see what other pics I have. Glad you, and others, are enjoying them.


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## Druydess

Some more of the filly by Golden Ecstasy and Echo Empress:




























Obviously a lovely Arabian..


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

NdAppy said:


> If it wasn't said that this horse was an arabian, there is nothing to point out to me characteristic wise that she is. IMO, once again she looks like a quarter or quarter cross, not a purebred arabian. She does not have the breed characteristics IMPO.


Really? The dished face screams at me on all of them I think the way they carry themselves too is arabian.


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## ShutUpJoe

I agree that filly doesn't have a flat croup, which is a breed characteristic, but in the second picture she posted you can clearly see her dished face and tea cup muzzle... I think she looks very Arab. Maybe not in that one pic because her head is facing toward the camera. But even then she's got the wider, closer set nostrils...

Edited because she posted more pictures: Oh yea, definitely an Arabian. And I might be biased but I love her coloring : ) One Arab I would be proud to own and I don't really tend to prefer that breed.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Druydess said:


> LOL- too funny- maybe if you sneak one in he won't notice.. :wink:..I'll have to go see what other pics I have. Glad you, and others, are enjoying them.


Right now I am working him over for a cute jack russell puppy can only manage one thing at a time.


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## NdAppy

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Really? The dished face screams at me on all of them I think the way they carry themselves too is arabian.


Yep really. The face isn't what I would really consider dishy in a majority of the pictures posted. There are some that scream arabian and others that scream mixed quarter type breed. The filly I quoted a picture of happens to be one of them. One of my mare carries herself the exact same way, that does not make her an arabian.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

ShutUpJoe said:


> I agree that filly doesn't have a flat croup, which is a breed characteristic, but in the second picture she posted you can clearly see her dished face and tea cup muzzle... I think she looks very Arab. Maybe not in that one pic because her head is facing toward the camera. But even then she's got the wider, closer set nostrils...
> 
> Edited because she posted more pictures: Oh yea, definitely an Arabian. And I might be biased but I love her coloring : ) One Arab I would be proud to own and I don't really tend to prefer that breed.


LOL the flaxen mane and tail have me drooling


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## Alwaysbehind

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> LOL the flaxen mane and tail have me drooling


I love those too. My Haflinger has them. 
They are such a pain to keep clean though.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

NdAppy said:


> Yep really. The face isn't what I would really consider dishy in a majority of the pictures posted. There are some that scream arabian and others that scream mixed quarter type breed. The filly I quoted a picture of happens to be one of them. One of my mare carries herself the exact same way, that does not make her an arabian.


Funny how we all see things differently on these things I guess thats what makes this fun all the different opinions get to see more than one point of view makes you look harder at things but to my eyes she looks arab.


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## ShutUpJoe

Three out of five of my horses are Sorrel with Flaxen mane and tail : ) No problems keeping my guys clean.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Alwaysbehind said:


> I love those too. My Haflinger has them.
> They are such a pain to keep clean though.


Ha try having a bone headed perlino colt who has taken to rolling in the creek...gotta love that baby brain.


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## Druydess

ShutUpJoe said:


> I agree that filly doesn't have a flat croup, which is a breed characteristic, but in the second picture she posted you can clearly see her dished face and tea cup muzzle... I think she looks very Arab. Maybe not in that one pic because her head is facing toward the camera. But even then she's got the wider, closer set nostrils...
> 
> Edited because she posted more pictures: Oh yea, definitely an Arabian. And I might be biased but I love her coloring : ) One Arab I would be proud to own and I don't really tend to prefer that breed.


She is a nice representation of the breed. Also, a flat croup is not always desired in every discipline. My grey isn't terribly flat, but that didn't hinder her from winning Sport Horse and Reserve Champion beating out a Legion of Merit mare.
Also, these pics are of young fillies who have not finished growing or leveled out yet. It's not really a surprise that horses tend to change throughout their growing years.


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## Alwaysbehind

ShutUpJoe said:


> Three out of five of my horses are Sorrel with Flaxen mane and tail : ) No problems keeping my guys clean.


My mare's tail is so thick that when she lifts it to urinate it does not all get out of the way, there is a chunk that gets peed on every time. 

When I give her a bath there is so much hair (both mane and tail) that it is hard work to get the hairs inside even wet. I think I have them all and I go digging and there is a huge dry spot.

Darn creatures with way too much blonde hair.




Druydess said:


> Also, a flat croup is not always desired in every discipline.


So true!
So very true.
But still, isn't a flat croup an Arabian breed characteristic?


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## Druydess

Another of Golden Ecstasy:


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## ShutUpJoe

AlwaysBehind. Have you seen my thread about using electrical tape? It works wonders. As far as the tail goes, I put a little baby oil along the base of the tail and on the inside so that the poo and urine doesnt stick. But yea, that part gets dirty easily if I don't keep up on it.


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## Alwaysbehind

Have not seen your thread. Can not imagine what using electrical tape has to do with my mare's tail since I have no intentions of turning her tail into a high maintenance braided up type thing. But will go look at it.


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## Druydess

GE and his daughter:


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## ShutUpJoe

Sorry to go off topic again, 


It has to do more so with the mane and keeping it clean. But I wouldn't see an issue with using it on the tail, lol. 

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-grooming/using-electrical-tape-96023/


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## Alwaysbehind

MFM's mane has grown totally crazy long in the not quite 10 months I have had her. So freaking thick. I just am not the braid it and ball it type person. I will probably pull it to hunter length and then all will be well.


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## Corporal

To anyone who has never owned an Arabian, eat your hearts out!! My unregistered Arab, "Corporal," had all of the listed characteristics.








2007, Shawnee National Forest
Arabs DEFINE the floating trot, the extended trot and they define collection, which I think they display better than any other breed. The fact that so MANY breeds have crossed Arabian into them indicates to me that others in the past agree.
I gotta have another one in my future.


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## Druydess

Corporal said:


> Arabs DEFINE the floating trot, the extended trot and they define collection, which I think they display better than any other breed. The fact that so MANY breeds have crossed Arabian into them indicates to me that others in the past agree.
> I gotta have another one in my future.


Well said!! :thumbsup:


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## MsBHavin

ShutUpJoe said:


> Sorry to go off topic again,
> 
> 
> It has to do more so with the mane and keeping it clean. But I wouldn't see an issue with using it on the tail, lol.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-grooming/using-electrical-tape-96023/


Really cool idea. *stores for later*


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## HGEsquire

SunStarArabians said:


> Absolutely drooling over that pedigree...any pics of her daughter and E's kid??


Sorry to come to the party so late and not with a lot of photos but here is what I have:


This is the Lewisfield Jingle daughter who in fact is sired by a Khemosabi son




















And her HG Esquire+ son. Unfortunately it is the only decent photo I have been given and is rather old. He is about 15 months in this photo











Denise Gainey


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## Druydess

Lovely photos Denise. E does come through in the pic! 
Love Jingle's pedigree.


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## HGEsquire

Yes, Jingle was a mare owned by the Huffmans that produced very well for them. I was not able to meet her as she had passed on before I met them many years back.

Khlassy however is a great mare and with a tempermant to match. I was just glad to be able to dig up those old photos 

Denise Gainey


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## Druydess

Have you found anything/photos on Lewisfield Jingle? I haven't found much..


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## HGEsquire

Nothing yet and not sure I will. Her owners are now quite aged, the wife passed away about 10 years ago and the husband had a stroke about 7 years back. I know there are many photos in albums and boxes of their herd to include the Khemosabi son (I have photos of him with Tommy Garland riding) they brought to VA from I think Arkansas in the early to mid 70's. I would be surprised if anything showed up online although I suppose it is quite possible. I promise to share if I find anything 

Denise Gainey


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

HGEsquire said:


> Nothing yet and not sure I will. Her owners are now quite aged, the wife passed away about 10 years ago and the husband had a stroke about 7 years back. I know there are many photos in albums and boxes of their herd to include the Khemosabi son (I have photos of him with Tommy Garland riding) they brought to VA from I think Arkansas in the early to mid 70's. I would be surprised if anything showed up online although I suppose it is quite possible. I promise to share if I find anything
> 
> Denise Gainey


Wanted to say your girl has a very beautiful soft eye.


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## Druydess

HGEsquire said:


> Nothing yet and not sure I will. Her owners are now quite aged, the wife passed away about 10 years ago and the husband had a stroke about 7 years back. I know there are many photos in albums and boxes of their herd to include the Khemosabi son (I have photos of him with Tommy Garland riding) they brought to VA from I think Arkansas in the early to mid 70's. I would be surprised if anything showed up online although I suppose it is quite possible. I promise to share if I find anything
> 
> Denise Gainey


How very sad- I'm sorry to hear that. We are running out of these great treasures.. :-(
I know you'll share it with us if you find anything..thank you..


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## Celeste

There is tremendous variation within each breed. Several people have commented on a couple of really nice fillies stating that they did not look "typey". First off, I have never seen any breed besides an Arab that had a true dished face and both of these did. Even half Arabs lose the head shape. The "dish" might not be noticable in every picture, but if even one picture shows it, it is there. 

These Phara Arabians (including and maybe especially the two that have been criticized in this thread) are especially nice because they are more muscular than a lot of the Arabian lines. That is a good thing. They are extremely athletic. My horse is Egyptian, yet she is big and muscular. Her sire won firsts at the Egyptian nationals several years ago. He is also big and muscular. Not every breeder is going for small boned Arabians. It's all good. I like a stronger horse myself just so the type is not gone.


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## Druydess

Celeste said:


> There is tremendous variation within each breed. Several people have commented on a couple of really nice fillies stating that they did not look "typey". First off, I have never seen any breed besides an Arab that had a true dished face and both of these did. Even half Arabs lose the head shape. The "dish" might not be noticable in every picture, but if even one picture shows it, it is there.
> 
> These Phara Arabians (including and maybe especially the two that have been criticized in this thread) are especially nice because they are more muscular than a lot of the Arabian lines. That is a good thing. They are extremely athletic. My horse is Egyptian, yet she is big and muscular. Her sire won firsts at the Egyptian nationals several years ago. He is also big and muscular. Not every breeder is going for small boned Arabians. It's all good. I like a stronger horse myself just so the type is not gone.


It's great to have a professional weighing in on this. Other vets I've known have a similar opinion. There is no doubt whether those fillies are Arabian, at least to Arabian owners. I too prefer the more muscular, substantive Arabs. It amazes me how some people think there's "only one" type, and if it doesn't look like the latest magazine photo, it's not a 'true" Arab. Lady Blunt bred horses to be "using" horses and did not follow the fads common today. It was the policy of the Blunts that unless the produce of any mare however good individually, failed to produce a sire of the first class after three generations, the line should be eliminated from the stud. One would think this may have resulted in some pretty good Arabians. Crabbets are solid foundation for the Arabian breed. If the foundation Arabians of Crabbet Stud were put up for "critique" today, the snobs of the Arabian world would tear them apart. Today, often, what's "pretty" to one eye depends on who's footing the bill the latest show..:wink:


----------



## bubba13

Celeste said:


> There is tremendous variation within each breed. Several people have commented on a couple of really nice fillies stating that they did not look "typey". First off, I have never seen any breed besides an Arab that had a true dished face and both of these did. Even half Arabs lose the head shape. The "dish" might not be noticable in every picture, but if even one picture shows it, it is there.











































































Even at that, the "dish" in the Arabians face is far from a defining breed trait. For one, not all Arabians have it. It's more of a modern adaptation for the show/halter ring, based purely on aesthetics, neglecting functionality and even historical roots. Dr. Deb Bennett did a two- or three-part series in the _Equus_ magazine awhile back, focusing on head conformation. She lamented what she called the "Arabization" of many breeds, where Quarter Horse breeders (among others) strive for a dish and jibbah....something that not all horses should have, as it can have negative physiologial effects when taken to extremes. Those articles are really great, and I can't find them online, but I highly suggest digging up those old magazines if you have them and taking a look.

This horse, for example, is clearly an Arabian fitting nicely into the breed standards, yet does not have an extreme head.










(Note nice length and "hook" of neck and flatness of croup....things the filly in question lacks.)

This horse is a National Champion--I've had the pleasure of watching him work and the "honor" of helping to collect him for breedings....he commands a fairly high stud fee. He's an extremely nice and highly sought-after horse....yet his head, while refined, is hardly dished.







 
And here's a beautiful Polish Arabian:












> These Phara Arabians (including and maybe especially the two that have been criticized in this thread) are especially nice because they are more muscular than a lot of the Arabian lines.


What do you mean by "muscular?" And where do you see it on the horses in question? A lot of Arabians are not bulky like Quarter Horses because they have a higher quantity of slow twitch rather than fast twitch muscles. This gives them their superior endurance and inferior sprinting speed. That's a big part of the reason you'll see a lot of half-Arabians in the reining and cutting rings--you get the best of both worlds, capitalizing on the unique athletic attributes of both breeds. Bulk does not necessarily equate to muscle when it comes to larger horses, though. A lot of the old "famous" stallions shown on this thread have heavier bone in the legs than a lot of modern, halter-type Arabians you see. I'm a big fan of this, as it makes them sturdier and more prone to soundness (though thick diameter of bone is less necessary in Arabs than, say, Quarter Horses, as they have greater bone density to begin with). Serafix, for one (not sure if he's made it to this thread or not) has absolutely lovely leg conformation. He's a beautiful horse just dripping with quality. Some of the more recently-born horses pictured on this thread, though, have extremely light bone...which does not say much for their weight-carrying abilities or their future soundness. Some of them, too, as other posters have pointed out, have weak pasterns. Yes, that makes for a springier step and a more comfortable ride, but it's also more prone to hyperextension of the deep digital flexor tendon and breakdowns. Just look at DLSD in Pasos to see what I'm talking about.


----------



## Druydess

An interesting article on Lady Blunt and her daughter Lady Wentworth. Their contribution to the Arabian breed can not be underscored..

← The Mistress of Crabbet
Lady Wentworth in the London Times

Founded in 1878 by Wilfrid and Lady Anne Blunt, from 1920 to 1957 the Crabbet Arabian Stud was under the firm hand of their daughter Judith Blunt-Lytton, also known as Lady Wentworth. Lady Wentworth added the stallion Skowronek to the stud, picked and chose from among the “Blunt mares,” bought back horses her parents had sold, sold some they had kept, and set about breeding Arabian horses to suit her own ideals and tastes.
The Depression and Second World War put a crimp on her breeding activities, but after 1945 she expanded her program and Crabbet was going full blast when Lady Wentworth died in August of 1957. She left behind a herd of about 75 head.

Lady Wentworth continued her parents’ practice of selling horses all over the world.* All of today’s major breed subdivisions benefited from Crabbet breeding. *In 1936 Lady Wentworth sold a large draft to Russia’s Tersk Stud, including the key animals Naseem, Rissalma, and Rixalina. Her sale to Egypt in 1920 included the stallions Kasmeyn, Sotamm, and Hamran as well as the mares Bint Riyala and Bint Rissala. Five Skowronek daughters were among the horses she sold to Spain’s Duke of Veragua, and of these Reyna founded a particularly strong dam line. To Poland she sold the stallion Rasim and the mare Sardhana; in more recent decades horses from Tersk have brought additional Crabbet lines to the Polish state studs. To America she sent such key breeding animals as *Serafix, *Raffles, *Raseyn, *Rissletta, *Nasik, and *Ferda.

Lady Wentworth’s obituary in the London Times ran on August 10, 1957.
The headline read “Lady Wentworth, Breeder of Arab Horses” and a surprising amount of the text was devoted to the Crabbet Arabians: Baroness Wentworth died in hospital at Crawley, Sussex, on Thursday night at the age of 84. As a leading breeder of Arab horses and as a writer of books on breeding, Lady Wentworth carried on the tradition of the Crabbet stud which had been built up by her father and mother. In her independence of mind, her eccentricities, her artistic pursuits, and her stormy domestic relations she reflected her ancestry— both her father, Wilfrid Scawen Blunt the traveler and poet, and her maternal great-grandfather, Lord Byron.

Judith Anne Dorothea Blunt-Lytton, Baroness Wentworth, as sixteenth holder of the peerage, was the only daughter of Wilfrid Scawen Blunt and Lady Anne King-Noel, who as a child of the Earl of Lovelace was a granddaughter of Lord Byron, the poet. In youth she was a society beauty and her appearance made a strong impression on Burne-Jones, for some of whose last studies she sat. “She gives me the impression,” he said, “of perfect beauty combined with the speed and lightness of foot of some wild creature.” The second part of this tribute was not merely fanciful, for Lady Wentworth was a fine athlete. She became a champion royal tennis player, a game that is not generally regarded as suitable for women, and she built her own court at Crabbet. She was also a good squash player and went on playing the game until late in life.
In 1899 she married Neville Stephen Lytton, son of the second [actually first] Earl of Lytton. The marriage took place in Cairo. The bride was given away by Lord Cromer, the Resident, who to the Queen’s inquiry about the ceremony sent the laconic reply, “Marriage duly performed.” She later became estranged first from her father with whom she had differences of opinion about the management of the Crabbet estates, and afterwards from her husband, from whom she was divorced in 1923. Her mother succeeded to the Barony of Wentworth a few months before her death in 1917, when it devolved by special remainder on Judith Blunt-Lytton. The new Lady Wentworth lived for the rest of her life at Crabbet Park in the grounds of which her father was buried.

She inherited from her parents the love of the desert and of the horse of the desert, the Arabian, and the “feeling for the desert” never left her. After her mother’s death she took over the Crabbet stud which the unfortunate quarrels of her parents had allowed to reach a very low level, and gradually built it up to the dominating position which undoubtedly it holds to-day. *There is hardly a stud in this country or abroad which does not owe its existence to one or other of the Crabbet stock.* _As a breeder she probably had few equals; she combined a voluminous knowledge of pedigree
with a keen eye for a horse and with the means to breed on a big scale, and she had a certain flair or instinct which transcends scientific calculations._ She was also a competent horse trainer and brought the business of preparing horses for the show ring to a fine art. The foundation of the modern Crabbet stud was undoubtedly the almost legendary Skowronek, a pure bred Arab foaled in Poland, whose sire was hanged in the market place by the revolutionaries of 1917; he was saved from a like fate by being bought for Mr. Walter Winans just before the First World War, after which Lady Wentworth acquired him. From this foundation has flowed the long line of champion Arab sires and mares which have dominated the show ring for many years in almost every country of the world.

A character as strong as Lady Wentworth’s could hardly keep out of controversy; indeed, like the Biblical warhorse which she loved so much, she probably “smelled the battle from afar” and she was a doughty opponent. *Just after the war she became involved in a violent controversy within the Arab Horse Society over the height and size of Arab horses in England. After much acrimony she won her point that there should be no limiting the size of the Arab horsesin English shows.*


----------



## tinyliny

I love this one


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## bubba13

I don't know why, and it's totally not my discipline, but he just looks like he'd make a nice jumper, doesn't he?


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## Druydess

tinyliny said:


> I love this one


Very pretty, but the throat latch is a bit thick, and the croup is not flat.. which to me, is not necessarily a negative..(the croup).


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## bubba13

Compared to these horses, his croup is flatter and his hip angle shallower. No, a truly "table-top flat" croup is not desirable, for any horse.




























Versus this, which is too extreme and really not particularly athletic:










Or the other extreme:


----------



## Druydess

Some of the "true" Crabbet examples:

Skowronek, the foundation of Crabbet breeding and a Sire found in nearly every pedigree: 










Mesaoud:









Lady Blunt:









These horses would not meet certain "experts" standards today, yet they are responsible for the continuation of the Arabian breed here in the US, and in many other countries. If not for her, there would be little or no variation or continuation of the breed as we know it. They are also full grown and finished, so one can judge them fairly. I prefer to follow Lady Blunt's example of what Arabian quality is. She, after all, has proven that she knew what was she doing.

Annette, of Phara Farm also thought out of the box and has produced wonderful horses. I respect those who have devoted their entire lives to produce quality Arabians. Their experience is a valuable learning source, which has certainly inspired my goals.


----------



## Druydess

For those unfamiliar with Arabians:
Breed defining traits from the Arabian Horse Association:

An Arabian can most readily be identified by its finely chiseled head with a *dished face*, long arching neck, and high tail carriage.

Characteristics
*Although no individual animal will possess all *of the qualities described below, the composite, nevertheless, epitomizes the finest specimens observed:

His skeleton is characterized by a relative shortness of skull, a slenderness of the lower jaw, a larger size of brain case. Also to be noted are fewer vertebrae in the back and tail, and more horizontal pelvic bone position.
The Arabian's head is a real thing of beauty, the upper half being larger in proportion to the whole size of the horse, especially in the depth across the jowls.
The head has a triangular shape which diminishes rapidly to a small and fine muzzle, which is so small that it can be enclosed in the palm of the hand. The lips are fine and thin. The nostrils are long, thin, delicately curled, running upward, and projecting outward. In action or when the horse is excited, the nostrils may become greatly dilated.
The eyes are set far apart and are large, lustrous, and , when aroused, extremely attentive. They are set more nearly in the middle of the head.
It is interesting to note that the distance from the top of the head to the top of the eyes is often within one inch of the distance from the lower eyelid to the top of the nostril. The overall appearance of the Arabian head is frequently enhanced by a slight protrusion over the forehead and extending to just below the eyes, called the "Jibbah" by the Arabs, and greatly prized.
The cheek bones spread wide apart at the throat, often between five or six inches, enabling the muzzle to be drawn in without compressing the windpipe, and permitting the animal to breathe easily when running.
The ears, smaller in stallions and of good size in mares, are pointed, set evenly together in an upright position, and of great flexibility.
Generally speaking, the head should be lean, somewhat well chiseled, and showing energy, intelligence, courage, and nobility. The neck is long and arched, set on high, and run well back into the withers.


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## bubba13

Many of the pictured "Phara" horses do not have dished faces, either. Also, that quoted excerpt is not taken from the official AHA guidelines, but rather from an outside writer, which goes on to say that there are "occasional roan" Arabians, which is of course *not* true...so it's hardly the be-all and end-all authority. Though I must point out that even in the part you copied and pasted, it refers to the flatness of croup: "horizontal pelvic bone position."


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## Druydess

I love how the Phara blood comes through in this girl. Short head, tea-cup muzzle, and dished face.










The Pharas do seem to have quite a good balance of type and substance. I like that they're not too far on either end of the scale, and most importantly, that their minds are sound. Too many horses are useless after being bred for one trait..


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## bubba13

And again, while she has a pretty face, her neck is rather short and somewhat ewed, hindering an attractive headset or ease of collection. Unless I am somehow missing how this is a desirable trait among this subset of breeders?


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## Druydess

More info about the Crabbet Stud which certainly challenges thoughts of Arabian "type."

Crabbet Influence

Nearly every modern breeding tradition has been enhanced by contributions from Crabbet and a robust Crabbet heritage maintains its own identity. When studying photos of the early Crabbet imports, one is not swept away by the intrinsic, classical beauty of these horses. Some appear rather plain and lacking in what today is considered appropriate Arabian type. What horsemen are impressed with, and this seems to be what impressed American breeders who imported them, is a sturdy and sound conformation that permitted them to be ridden or driven without undue worry about breakdowns. Those qualities endure today in many horses carrying Crabbet blood.

During the 93 years that the Stud operated, it produced many horses that were to go on and found other great studs. Some notable horses produced were Naseem, who was sold to the Russian Government with over 20 other Crabbet Arabians. Naseem was to stand at the Russian Tersk Stud for 17 years, where 19 of his daughters were incorporated into the stud. Naseem also produced the influential Russian sire Negatiw, the sire of *Naborr and Salon. The pure Crabbet mare Rissalma also had an enormous impact on the stud through her son Priboj.

At the Egyptian Agricultural Organization (E.A.O.) Stud there are sixteen mares and forty one stallions listed as root stock in their stud book. Of these, nearly half were bred at Sheykh Obeyd or at Crabbet Park. One such example was Kazmeen, who was sold to the Egyptian Agricultural Organization in 1920 along with several other Crabbet horses. In this stud Kazmeen sired Bint Samih who went on to produce the much celebrated Nazeer. If this was the only contribution Crabbet blood had in the E.A.O. it would have been outstanding, but the fact is that several of the Crabbet horses bred in the stud can still be found in modern Egyptian pedigrees.

Skowronek just might be the most important stallion in Crabbet history, although, ironically, he was not bred in the desert and was not involved in the earliest foundations of the Crabbet program. He was bred in Poland late in the first decade of the 1900's. His sire was Ibrahim, a stallion Count Joseph Potocki of Poland bought in Arabia. Skowronek's dam was Jaskolka, a mare that had been foaled in Poland. H.V.M. Clark showed him at a horse show attended by Lady Wentworth. One look and it was all over. Lady Wentworth had to have Skowronek. Not only was he the fulfillment of her dreams for owning an impeccable white horse-most of the Crabbet horses were chestnuts and bays-but he would also make an excellent outcross stallion for the Crabbet mares. She succeeded in procuring Skowronek and began breeding him to her mares, especially those of the Dajania and Rodania lines. Skowronek was the sire of *Raffles, imported to the United States by Roger Selby and *Raseyn, imported by W.K. Kellogg.

The United States of America were also keen buyers of Crabbet Arabians, with large numbers purchased by Spencer Borden, W.R. Brown, Homer Davenport, and W.K. Kellogg. But it is Bazy Tankersley who purchased the largest consignment of Crabbet Arabians, 32 horses in 1957. These horses are easily found in current U.S. pedigrees, and are the subject of CMK Group (Crabbet, Maynesborough and Kellogg).

The problem in trying to discuss in a brief treatise the influence of Crabbet lines is that they are so widespread, once launched from the prime source. As a small example, one of the sons of Crabbet-bred Oran was *Oran Van Crabbet, imported to the United States by R.H. Dow. He established his own mark in the show world and then sired sons and daughters who in turn are breeding that ability on. No discussion of Crabbet horses can be conducted without mentioning the role of Bazy Tankersley, today the major breeder of the bloodlines first established by the Blunts.

Mrs. Tankersley purchased 32 horses from Crabbet and Hanstead in the first contingent. Among them was the Rissalix son, Count Dorsaz, as well as three Rissalex daughters. Mrs. Tankersley built her breeding program around two prime sire lines, *Raffles and Rissalix, the now well known 'Double R Cross.' Her chief stallion on the *Raffles side was Indraff, a straight Crabbet horse. For many years, it would be fair to say, her foundation stock set the standard for producing champion Arabian horses and that legacy continues today.


My trainer was given a favorite Indraff son by Bazy as she grew up with Bazy's daughter, and she said he was the best horse she's ever had..


----------



## BarrelracingArabian

I have to ad to the not all arabians have a dished face or flat croup my boy has a very small dish as do all of the other arabians at the ranch i ride at. 
a few of ours
outlaw








and his grandsire fadjur








mare i used to own dished face but not particularly flat 








black powder-no dish but sort of flat(preggy here)








imprint-not dishy and not flat








anyways gorgeous horses and i personally love that filly i dislike the no 'norm' of giraffe necks and dainty legs our arabs are endurance bred (big feet,larger heads, and solid boned)


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## bubba13

I think this horse is extremely cute, and also quite well conformed.










At the same time, he's definitely lacking in "type." This is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you want to show at breed shows. But this guy could practically pass as a Quarter Horse. That said, I really like him!


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Please don't use my photos...*



bubba13 said:


> Compared to these horses, his croup is flatter and his hip angle shallower. No, a truly "table-top flat" croup is not desirable, for any horse.


This is my horse and it is my right to share this photo. Please respect that. 

You cannot judge the croup here as he is standing under himself, obviously.


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## SunStarArabians

*Oooh La La*



bubba13 said:


> And again, while she has a pretty face, her neck is rather short and somewhat ewed, hindering an attractive headset or ease of collection. Unless I am somehow missing how this is a desirable trait among this subset of breeders?


This picture is of a growing young filly with her HEAD UP. Different pictures of her at various times in her growing stages have different appearances.

For all those that are viewing this or any thread, remember that photos are not the end all be all of judging a horse's conformation. We all love taking photos of our horses, but we are certainly not all professional photographers


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## Golden Horse

SunStarArabians said:


> This is my horse and it is my right to share this photo. Please respect that.
> 
> You cannot judge the croup here as he is standing under himself, obviously.



:-? Didn't you post this pic earlier on on this thread yourself??

I'm confused why it is an issue to repost it?


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## bubba13

SunStarArabians said:


> This is my horse and it is my right to share this photo. Please respect that.


You originally posted the photo yourself, _on this thread_. I quoted and reposted. Don't post the photo on this site if you don't want people to view and discuss it.



> You cannot judge the croup here as he is standing under himself, obviously.


No he isn't. He has a hind leg cocked. This does give him a slightly exaggerated appearance of "bubble butt," but if you look at the hip angle in comparison to the rest of the horse, it is still far steeper than the ideal of flat croup we've been discussing, _which doesn't necessarily make him a bad horse_. It's just a point in the discussion we were having, about the relative angle of an Arabian's pelvis, as it relates to breed standard and physiology.



SunStarArabians said:


> This picture is of a growing young filly with her HEAD UP. Different pictures of her at various times in her growing stages have different appearances.


She looks the same in all photos. It's not horrendous, by any means, and she doesn't have _terrible_ conformation--she's actually a prett nice mare--but this horse is being represented (unless I am misinterpreting the posts, in which case I genuinely apologize) as some kind of ideal standard of conformation, quality, and Arabian type. But for several reasons, she comes up lacking, and I am merely pointing those out. Speaking of, who owns that filly and those photos? The owner of the horse/images didn't post them, or give permission for them to be shared on this thread, I am sure. Sure hope no one is failing to respect others' copyrights.... :shock:

Look at her here: OOOH LA LA - SOLD! Exported to Belgium . . . - Arabian Horse Breeders Network - Page 3

Neck looks a hair longer, but is still shorter than what you see touted as the Arabian ideal, and still has the undesirable muscling on the under side. She has "adequate" bone, too, but not really the heavy bones that other people on the thread seem to be seeing....unless, again, I really am missing something big? 



> For all those that are viewing this or any thread, remember that photos are not the end all be all of judging a horse's conformation. We all love taking photos of our horses, but we are certainly not all professional photographers


This is very true, and it's worth pointing out to people who are exhibiting or marketing horses--always take the time and effort to portray your horse in its best light. For example, in some of the photos of the mare in the link, she looks to have a decent, flatter, croup, but in others, it looks quite steep, and it's difficult to tell which is the accurate image. Naturally, they don't have a single, fair conformation shot of her put up, something which drives me nuts about breeders and sellers. You can't accurately assess the horse, and you can paint it in quite a different light, either making a terrible horse appear nice, or disguising flaws in a subpar horse.

Case in point:



















Photos taken just a couple weeks apart.


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## SunStarArabians

My posts have been to share photos for the history of the Phara Arabian. 


And I do APOLOGIZE for sharing a snapshot of my recently deceased horse and not being able to schedule a photographer this summer.

I did not originally post the photos of Oooh La La and I don't think anyone said she was the ideal Arabian. She is a pretty young filly with a percentage of Phara blood.


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## wild_spot

I have a completely non-typey Arab - Absolute best horse i've ever owned.

I often get asked if he has a bit of Arab in him - Uh, yep, 100%! Lol!

I've never shown him at arab shows simply because he isn't typey. he has won at just about everything else though.

Here he is:





































I think he is a well conformed horse - Which has been proven by his 100% soundness so far even after 8+ years competeing nearly every weekend at speed events and jumping. but I would not call him a textbook example of the breed!

My other girl is a little bit more typey - but again, not great! She is still a strong, sound little girl but not ideal Arab conformation.





































Typier head than Wildey though:


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## Alwaysbehind

Wildspot, why are your mare's shoulder brands shaved in a couple of those photos? (Just curious.)


Bubba, who is that tank of a buckskin you posted (8th photo down from the top)? I am not normally a fan of the 'on steroids' look but he is handsome in that photo.


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## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> My posts have been to share photos for the history of the Phara Arabian.
> 
> 
> And I do APOLOGIZE for sharing a snapshot of my recently deceased horse and not being able to schedule a photographer this summer.
> 
> I did not originally post the photos of Oooh La La and I don't think anyone said she was the ideal Arabian. She is a pretty young filly with a percentage of Phara blood.


Sunstar, this thread is about the Phara history and we can keep this on track as such. Please continue with your Phara history so that others may learn more about the Phara line as is the intent of this thread. Oooo La La is posted with permission from her breeder. I'm very sorry about your boy; I feel the same way when people use my photos of my deceased girl without permission.


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## Alwaysbehind

Druydess said:


> Sunstar, this thread is about the Phara history and we can keep this on track as such. Oooo La La is posted with permission from her breeder. I'm very sorry about your boy; I feel the same way when people use my photos of my deceased girl without permission.


If you post photos people are allowed to quote them.

It is not like anyone has dragged your photos off to another thread or another forum and used them.


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## Druydess

Wild Spot, your Arabs are very sweet!


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## Celeste

bubba13 said:


> And again, while she has a pretty face, her neck is rather short and somewhat ewed, hindering an attractive headset or ease of collection. Unless I am somehow missing how this is a desirable trait among this subset of breeders?


 

This is ewe necked...........


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## Alwaysbehind

Ewe necked does not have to be an ugly outside appearance. Ewe necked can be structural that is not near as obvious as that photo shows.

(I assume you are trying to say that Bubba is wrong that the mare can not be ewe necked because it does not look as bad as this example.)

But I guess since you are a veterinarian you already know this...hu?


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## Celeste

bubba13 said:


> I think this horse is extremely cute, and also quite well conformed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the same time, he's definitely lacking in "type." This is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you want to show at breed shows. But this guy could practically pass as a Quarter Horse. That said, I really like him!


 
This is a horse that one of our posters thinks is a good Arab. It is a nice backyard horse for sure. But for those of us who find certain comments about high dollar show horses offensive, I must say, consider the source.


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## Celeste

I believe that one poster mentioned a weak back? 


Don't make fun of this horse. She is up for adoption HERE and would probably like a nice home.


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## Alwaysbehind

Celeste said:


> I must say, consider the source.


Truer words have not been spoken.

So true...to the content of this thread and any thread, really!

Thank you for pointing that out.


----------



## Celeste

*Consider the source.............*


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## Alwaysbehind

Celeste, you posting photos of extreme examples of issues does not make the less extreme situation not exist. I would think someone who is a veterinarian would know this. Though I guess you do not know what weak pasterns look like either so I guess I am not surprised.


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## QH Gunner

I can't believe how rude this thread gets. I came on to read it, curious, bc I have always had a thing for Arabs m- but never had the chance to be around anyone knowledgeable. Well- after reading, I wouldn't even ask a question. Anyone who asks anything gets shunned unless they are simply fawning over the animals. I see nothing wrong with what Bubba asked & someone replys "consider the source"? Not to mention, Sun Star & Druydess just completely ignore people or obviously look down on there opinions. & get upset for quoting a picture bc it points out something they don't like? Ridiculous. In my opinion, I'm offended as someone reading who might have been curious about such. 
What I see here is the stereotypical "horse snobs" that give the rest of us a bad name. I certainly wouldn't come to you in real life for anything. You can't even take a question or minor discrepancy in an opinion without becoming rude & harsh. Even your precious "high dollar show horses" can have faults, & it's not wrong to point something out. Part of being mature & breeding animals is being able to admit to flaws, obviously, not the case here.
Maybe you should start your next thread with the advice you only want compliments & no serious questions only cute little "how'd you get his mane so pretty" type questions, so that people who were legitimately curious about the type & bloodlines ( such as myself who honestly would have aske some of the questions you took such defense too) will know not to even bother reading. I would never even think of answering people like this for pointing out something about one of my animals, bought or bred. 
It's a shame, your horses are pretty, however... The attitude in this thread have made me, & I'm sure others, not even concerned about learning more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mumiinek

So very well said QH Gunner. I've been reading this thread for a while and I always wanted to ask a few questions that are stuck in my mind since I first opened it but the attitude of some people is stopping me from asking anything. My post would either get ignored completely or I would be kicked away because my message contained a question and not "awwww oh my god I'm so jealous". I first started reading this thread because I wanted to learn something new. But you can only learn chosen things some people want you to know here and I don't like that. I'm disappointed.


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## Alwaysbehind

mumiinek said:


> But you can only learn chosen things some people want you to know here and I don't like that. I'm disappointed.


I have learned quite a bit recently though. I am glad to see some questions and counter points have not been removed (yet). I have learned quite a bit from them.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Druydess said:


> It's great to have a professional weighing in on this. Other vets I've known have a similar opinion. There is no doubt whether those fillies are Arabian, at least to Arabian owners. I too prefer the more muscular, substantive Arabs. It amazes me how some people think there's "only one" type, and if it doesn't look like the latest magazine photo, it's not a 'true" Arab. Lady Blunt bred horses to be "using" horses and did not follow the fads common today. It was the policy of the Blunts that unless the produce of any mare however good individually, failed to produce a sire of the first class after three generations, the line should be eliminated from the stud. One would think this may have resulted in some pretty good Arabians. Crabbets are solid foundation for the Arabian breed. If the foundation Arabians of Crabbet Stud were put up for "critique" today, the snobs of the Arabian world would tear them apart. Today, often, what's "pretty" to one eye depends on who's footing the bill the latest show..:wink:



Your last sentence is is true of all breeds I believe itsalso who you are and who you know at these shows.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

SunStarArabians said:


> This picture is of a growing young filly with her HEAD UP. Different pictures of her at various times in her growing stages have different appearances.
> 
> For all those that are viewing this or any thread, remember that photos are not the end all be all of judging a horse's conformation. We all love taking photos of our horses, but we are certainly not all professional photographers


Exactly and I'm sure had you wanted them critiqued by some you'd have posted your pictures in the critiquing section.


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## MsBHavin

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Exactly and I'm sure had you wanted them critiqued by some you'd have posted your pictures in the critiquing section.


If a picture is posted, you take the chance of someone pointing out what you don't want to hear. Claiming that your picture was 'stolen' is ridiculous as you yourself posted it here
:???:


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## QH Gunner

& if it wasn't a critique? It was a question someone such as myself wanted to know for personal knowledge or to use when considering purchasing one? People aren't supposed to come on here just to have their ego's fluffed which is what itseems more & more the op & her friends want. 

They are beautiful animals, it was nice seeing the pictures.. Do I consider them the finest- not by any means.. Did I want to learn about them.. Yes.. But not just "they are so pretty" & copy & paste... I can do that on google. There is no actual knowledge here that I couldn't get from google or an eleven year old girl who loves her horsey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

I understood the only fairly 'safe' area was to post in the pictures section, there people are expected to oooh and ahhh over the pretty ponies. The critique section is just that, and this is the breed section, where people will discuss breeds. Part of discussion is that people will not agree, they will point out what they see and what they think.

If you are promoting a breed, or a subset in a breed, then you better be able to defend it, or at least refrain from getting your undies in a bunch because not everyone falls at your feet and worships.

Oh and I like my Arabs short and stocky as well, fine mind and excellent temperament, like this one


----------



## QH Gunner

Golden Horse said:


> I understood the only fairly 'safe' area was to post in the pictures section, there people are expected to oooh and ahhh over the pretty ponies. The critique section is just that, and this is the breed section, where people will discuss breeds. Part of discussion is that people will not agree, they will point out what they see and what they think.
> 
> If you are promoting a breed, or a subset in a breed, then you better be able to defend it, or at least refrain from getting your undies in a bunch because not everyone falls at your feet and worships.
> 
> Oh and I like my Arabs short and stocky as well, fine mind and excellent temperament, like this one


Very well said, & I must add- gorgeous horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH

So the horses you do not critique must have decent conformation ? I see alot of pictures posted and no critiquing of them. Feeling pretty good right now about yall's opinions of my horses.


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## Alwaysbehind

Um, no. But good try.

I am sure if you posted a photo of any horse and stated it was a perfect example of its breed and no other horse or breed was near as good you would get a similar outcome as this thread.

An attempt at a discussion about the pros and cons of that breed and that example of the breed and how that breed can do this and that thing really well and why they are not as good at those things over there, etc.

The problem with this thread is that certain people do not want to have a conversation, they want to insult anyone who does not wow at them.


----------



## NdAppy

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> So the horses you do not critique must have decent conformation ? I see alot of pictures posted and no critiquing of them. Feeling pretty good right now about yall's opinions of my horses.


No that is not what it means. It just means that the horses that are being questioned about here are being touted as examples of what the bred/line should be and people are questioning why.


----------



## MsBHavin

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> So the horses you do not critique must have decent conformation ?


If someone is BREEDING horses with conformation issues or heck, even breeding for horses that don't go along with the breed standards, i'd expect they'd be brought up. If someone walks up to your arab that you bred, and says 'cute qh' then I'd say you're not within breed standards, *not the insane halter type, but the actual Arab standards* also if you're breeding because you say your stud has a 'purple glow' then you should NOT be breeding. Period.


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## Golden Horse

QH Gunner said:


> Very well said, & I must add- gorgeous horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you she is my baby, and to me is perfect, and that is all that matters.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

MsBHavin said:


> If someone is BREEDING horses with conformation issues or heck, even breeding for horses that don't go along with the breed standards, i'd expect they'd be brought up. If someone walks up to your arab that you bred, and says 'cute qh' then I'd say you're not within breed standards, *not the insane halter type, but the actual Arab standards* also if you're breeding because you say your stud has a 'purple glow' then you should NOT be breeding. Period.


Ok just wondering since I posted pics of my girl and intent on breeding her. Didnt receive any comments on her so I assume then she's good to go.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Ok just wondering since I posted pics of my girl and intent on breeding her. Didnt receive any comments on her so I assume then she's good to go.


Or everyone is doing the 'if you can not say something nice do not say anything at all' theory. :wink:


----------



## QH Gunner

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> So the horses you do not critique must have decent conformation ? I see alot of pictures posted and no critiquing of them. Feeling pretty good right now about yall's opinions of my horses.



I for one, do not know much about the breed... I like to know the good & the bad, therefore... I ask question all the time. If they are the "perfect" example, I want to know why & pick things out.

If these ppl are SURE they are perfect, well then they too should be able to dissuade what ppl think are flaws or atleast explain- not just shun questions. 

There is a difference between posting pictures and CLAIMING you "have the best" 
I think you should look at the big picture, not just the pretty horsies & realize what ppl are saying because this post you just made is far off point from what anyone I read has said or even implied.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QH Gunner

Golden Horse said:


> Thank you she is my baby, and to me is perfect, and that is all that matters.


Haha I'm the same with my fuzzies. I'd be proud to own ger tho.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Speed Racer

Alwaysbehind said:


> Or everyone is doing the 'if you can not say something nice do not say anything at all' theory. :wink:


Perhaps AB, or maybe they just missed pictures of the mare in all the rest of the folderol and hoopla. 

Maybe Perlino should post pictures of her mare again, and I'd be _happy_ to critique her for her broodmare potential. I'd suggest she not do it in this thread though, if she wants a true critique. It might get lost in among all the other postings.


----------



## kitten_Val

Alwaysbehind said:


> Or everyone is doing the 'if you can not say something nice do not say anything at all' theory. :wink:


I highly doubt this theory works in practice on this forum. At least looking at the threads in Breeding section.


----------



## kitten_Val

Now...

How about _everyone _calming down and leaving the personal drama behind? Talk about horses - fine, discussing breeds - fine, even critiquing breeding quality - fine (it's not a picture section in the end). Going _personal _is NOT fine. For those who didn't do it this morning, may be it's time to go to Forum Rules!


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Alwaysbehind said:


> Or everyone is doing the 'if you can not say something nice do not say anything at all' theory. :wink:


Hum dont know whether to take this as a slap or what? IMO my girl is darn close to perfect but this thread isnt about me and my Quarter horse...so back to the topic of this thread....going back to milady and finishing the mock state board test..good thing I have no computer access during my actual test.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Um, no. 

I was not talking about you specifically.

I was saying that threads where photos are posted sometimes it is easier to not post comments.

Do you have a link to your thread where you posted your mare (if it is not in this thread)? I see that someone very knowledgeable has offered up a critique.





Speed Racer said:


> Perhaps AB, or maybe they just missed pictures of the mare in all the rest of the folderol and hoopla.
> 
> Maybe Perlino should post pictures of her mare again, and I'd be _happy_ to critique her for her broodmare potential. I'd suggest she not do it in this thread though, if she wants a true critique. It might get lost in among all the other postings.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Alwaysbehind said:


> Um, no.
> 
> I was not talking about you specifically.
> 
> I was saying that threads where photos are posted sometimes it is easier to not post comments.
> 
> Do you have a link to your thread where you posted your mare (if it is not in this thread)? I see that someone very knowledgeable has offered up a
> critique.


Actually someone has critiqued her said she was a nice mare so I trust her opinion is much respected amongst the group and thanks for the offer but I'd never see that critique.


----------



## Celeste

If I recall, this thread was started specifically to discuss Phara Arabian horses. I find the topic interesting.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Celeste said:


> If I recall, this thread was started specifically to discuss Phara Arabian horses. I find the topic interesting.



Sorry I side tracked it. I apologize....back to me test.


----------



## Golden Horse

MsBHavin said:


> also if you're breeding because you say your stud has a 'purple glow' then you should NOT be breeding. Period.


Well not if it doesn't have that tell tale stripe that makes it a lilac dun anyway!


----------



## NdAppy

Celeste said:


> If I recall, this thread was started specifically to discuss Phara Arabian horses. I find the topic interesting.


It cannot be considered a discussion if questions that were/are being asked about the whys and wherefores of breeding this specific line of horses are being ignored or dismissed. There is a lot of information that can be shared but is being refused to be shared... Simple questions on the conformation deviations from the breed standard are to be expected when discussing something such as this regardless of what breed/species the animals in question are.

I feel that this could be a good discussion, but there is just so much lacking in that no one that isn't fawning isn't getting a second look/answer. That in and of itself is what makes this thread something that is not a discussion...


----------



## Celeste

"Originally Posted by *MsBHavin*  
_ also if you're breeding because you say your stud has a 'purple glow' then you should NOT be breeding. Period."

Who has a purple horse? I wish I had a purple horse..........`
_


​


----------



## NdAppy

Celeste I think that was just a comment in general about breeding for colors/shades of colors.


----------



## Celeste

Well I'm glad to hear that...........


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Celeste said:


> "Originally Posted by *MsBHavin*
> _ also if you're breeding because you say your stud has a 'purple glow' then you should NOT be breeding. Period."
> 
> Who has a purple horse? I wish I had a purple horse..........`
> _
> 
> 
> ​


Ha the question should be who wants a purple horse because when I had purple low lights in my hair I have a ton of the purple left...


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

kitten_Val said:


> Now...
> 
> How about _everyone _calming down and leaving the personal drama behind? Talk about horses - fine, discussing breeds - fine, even critiquing breeding quality - fine (it's not a picture section in the end). Going _personal _is NOT fine. For those who didn't do it this morning, may be it's time to go to Forum Rules!


Calm lol I wanna see how calm you are when you have a huge test theory and practical looming over your head... but seriously this board is my escape from my reality I'm not even thinking about fighting right now just not in the mood for it have been trying to be a better poster.


----------



## Faceman

Celeste said:


> If I recall, this thread was started specifically to discuss Phara Arabian horses.


Could have fooled me.

The definition of "discuss" is...



> to consider or examine by argument, comment, etc.; talk over or write about, especially to explore solutions; debate


Seeing as actual discussion has been discouraged by those that wish to promote their personal horses, I wouldn't exactly call it an open discussion - more like "Honk if you like my horses"...


----------



## Katze

Celeste said:


> "Originally Posted by *MsBHavin*
> _also if you're breeding because you say your stud has a 'purple glow' then you should NOT be breeding. Period."_
> 
> _Who has a purple horse? I wish I had a purple horse.........._


I have a purple horse!








MEET WHINNY!


----------



## MsBHavin

Katze said:


> I have a purple horse!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MEET WHINNY!


Your horse has a big head, and a small butt...don't breed!! :lol::lol:


----------



## bubba13

Celeste said:


> This is ewe necked...........


Yes it is. 



Celeste said:


> This is a horse that one of our posters thinks is a good Arab. It is a nice backyard horse for sure. But for those of us who find certain comments about high dollar show horses offensive, I must say, consider the source.


What an insult to the owner of the horse! Had you actually read my post, you'd see that I found this horse to be exceptional in structural soundness and lacking in Arabian breed characteristics. The former is far, far more important to me as a lover of sound, useable, athletic horses, and I can quite honestly say that yes, the horse in question is my favorite horse on the thread so far, and the one I would most like to own (even over the National Champion that I myself posted awhile back).

Show horses are not the be-all and end-all. They're based largely on trends and aesthetics, and when it comes to _some_ Arabian classes, soundness and correct conformation do not factor in all that highly, regardless of the purchase price of the "high dollar show horse." Just look at Magnum Psyche....












Celeste said:


> I believe that one poster mentioned a weak back?
> 
> 
> Don't make fun of this horse. She is up for adoption HERE and would probably like a nice home.


That horse displays lordosis--concave curvature of the spine. She also appears to be in considerable pain on the front end, and sure enough, a visit to the rescue website talks about her significant arthritis in the front leg. Poor pitiful thing. Lordosis/swayback is the least of her problems, as many horses are born with congential lordosis, yet have no back pain, can still carry weight, and are still very rideable.

Now take a look at my horse.










Good-lookin' fella, no? Yet he suffers from a structurally weak back and is in chronic pain due to his conformation. His development of swayback, as pictured, was secondary, as he compensated for his pain and his muscle atrophied.

Surely, again, as a veterinarian you realize all of this, and that looks can be very deceiving?

*Oh, and Alwaysbehind, the horse is Patch The Buck.*


----------



## Calmwaters

Katze said:


> I have a purple horse!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MEET WHINNY!


I use to have one of this breed to but she was pink. Best horse I ever owned no bucking, rearing, or any bad habits, also didn't eat to much. LOL


----------



## Alwaysbehind

MsBHavin said:


> Your horse has a big head, and a small butt...don't breed!! :lol::lol:


But it does seem to have a nicely sloped shoulder...though it is not a good conformation stance so it is really hard to tell for sure.
Back is for sure kind of short.





bubba13 said:


> *Oh, and Alwaysbehind, the horse is Patch The Buck.*


Thanks, I shall google now.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

A[FONT=Comic Sans MS said:


> lwaysbehind;1155774]But it does seem to have a nicely sloped shoulder...though it is not a good conformation stance so it is really hard to tell for sure.
> Back is for sure kind of short.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, I shall google now.


[/FONT] 

 So this is why Madisons barbies dont sit to well on these ponies that I have in my house learn something new everyday


----------



## Faceman

bubba13 said:


> Show horses are not the be-all and end-all. They're based largely on trends and aesthetics, and when it comes to _some_ Arabian classes, soundness and correct conformation do not factor in all that highly, regardless of the purchase price of the "high dollar show horse." Just look at Magnum Psyche....


Thank you...

This is not restricted to Arabs. Consider the grotesque QH halter horses that can barely waddle across an arena on their overstressed bones and tiny feet. Or consider the top racing Thoroughbreds, bred with bones and joints far too light for their weight in the interest of speed.

Just because a horse is bred to an image that is (to some) in vogue, or bred to perform a specialized task very well, does not insure that it is bred to be hardy, healthy, and sound. I wish that weren't true, but sadly it is, because whether it is horses, dogs, or guppies, people have some mysterious urge to breed to the extreme...


----------



## bsms

bubba13 said:


> ...Just look at Magnum Psyche....


I think my mare can kick his butt, even if she's a $1200 'noonewants':


----------



## Calmwaters

Quote "I think my mare can kick his butt, even if she's a $1200 'noonewants'

Thats not nice.


----------



## MsBHavin

bsms said:


> I think my mare can kick his butt, even if she's a $1200 'noonewants':


Beautiful mare!


----------



## Golden Horse

MsBHavin said:


> Beautiful mare!



I agree, I think Ace would like her as well, companionship you know:lol:


----------



## Druydess

Since this thread is NOT a conformation thread, nor an Arabian breed standard thread, and those of us, including a Vet, have different opinions on the filly posted, especially as she has none of those problems since I've seen her grown to adulthood, how about getting back to the topic of Phara history since that was the original idea and topic? It's time to stop beating a dead horse and agree to disagree.


----------



## MsBHavin

Golden Horse said:


> I agree, I think Ace would like her as well, companionship you know:lol:


Lol she doesn't have enough with the litter she's brewing up for you? :lol:


----------



## amp23

Druydess said:


> Since this thread is NOT a conformation thread, nor an Arabian breed standard thread, and those of us, including a Vet, have different opinions on the filly posted, especially as she has none of those problems, since I've seen her grown, how about getting back to the topic of Phara history since that was the original idea and topic? It's time to stop beating a dead horse and agree to disagree.


The thread is a discussion of the Phara Arabian, but you have failed to answer many of the questions asked regarding the Phara Arabians. Conformation, tempermant, etc are as much part of Phara Arabians as their history. If the thread had stayed on topic as a discussion, there would be no "side conversations" about other Arabians.


----------



## amp23

I agree with the above posters, that Arab mare is gorgeous!!


----------



## NdAppy

Druydess said:


> Since this thread is NOT a conformation thread, nor an Arabian breed standard thread, and those of us, including a Vet, have different opinions on the filly posted, especially as she has none of those problems since I've seen her grown to adulthood, how about getting back to the topic of Phara history since that was the original idea and topic? It's time to stop beating a dead horse and agree to disagree.


Since you have your panties in a knot i am going to quote myself so I don't have to retype it. 


NdAppy said:


> It cannot be considered a discussion if questions that were/are being asked about the whys and wherefores of breeding this specific line of horses are being ignored or dismissed. There is a lot of information that can be shared but is being refused to be shared... Simple questions on the conformation deviations from the breed standard are to be expected when discussing something such as this regardless of what breed/species the animals in question are.
> 
> I feel that this could be a good discussion, but there is just so much lacking in that no one that isn't fawning isn't getting a second look/answer. That in and of itself is what makes this thread something that is not a discussion...



You started this thread to share the Phara type/breeding of Arabians. If you can't handle being questioned on why they vary from the breed standard and what is it that makes them special then you should not have started this thread.

If you wanted accolades on your breed/horses or choice you should have started a thread in the Picture section. Seeing as this is the breed section and not the picture section, questions and discussion about horses posted here is to be expected. 

Like I said, if you can't handle being questioned on the whys and wherefores it is simple... Don't post.


----------



## Druydess

QH Gunner said:


> I can't believe how rude this thread gets. I came on to read it, curious, bc I have always had a thing for Arabs m- but never had the chance to be around anyone knowledgeable. Well- after reading, I wouldn't even ask a question. Anyone who asks anything gets shunned unless they are simply fawning over the animals. I see nothing wrong with what Bubba asked & someone replys "consider the source"? Not to mention, Sun Star & Druydess just completely ignore people or obviously look down on there opinions. & get upset for quoting a picture bc it points out something they don't like? Ridiculous. In my opinion, I'm offended as someone reading who might have been curious about such.
> What I see here is the stereotypical "horse snobs" that give the rest of us a bad name. I certainly wouldn't come to you in real life for anything. You can't even take a question or minor discrepancy in an opinion without becoming rude & harsh. Even your precious "high dollar show horses" can have faults, & it's not wrong to point something out. Part of being mature & breeding animals is being able to admit to flaws, obviously, not the case here.
> Maybe you should start your next thread with the advice you only want compliments & no serious questions only cute little "how'd you get his mane so pretty" type questions, so that people who were legitimately curious about the type & bloodlines ( such as myself who honestly would have aske some of the questions you took such defense too) will know not to even bother reading. I would never even think of answering people like this for pointing out something about one of my animals, bought or bred.
> It's a shame, your horses are pretty, however... The attitude in this thread have made me, & I'm sure others, not even concerned about learning more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gunner, some of us have people on ignore and don't see what they're writing. We have chosen to avoid conflict. Also, those questions have been answered.


----------



## amp23

Druydess said:


> Gunner, some of us have people on ignore and don't see what they're writing. We have chosen to avoid conflict. Also, those questions have been answered.


My first post on this thread was a question--I was wondering the same thing as MANY posters above me. Is there a certain reason that was ignored? Those questions have not been answered, as many other questions have not.


----------



## MsBHavin

amp23 said:


> My first post on this thread was a question--I was wondering the same thing as MANY posters above me. Is there a certain reason that was ignored?


Maybe you're on ignore as well? lol


----------



## Druydess

amp23 said:


> My first post on this thread was a question--I was wondering the same thing as MANY posters above me. Is there a certain reason that was ignored? Those questions have not been answered, as many other questions have not.


I believe I answered your question amp. If you have another, I'd be happy to answer it.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Druydess said:


> questions have been answered.


No, not they have not. Not at all. 
Questions have been ignored left and right.

I do not see how you can call it avoiding conflict when the questions being asked are simple questions that really could open a good discussion about the breed you claim to love.


----------



## amp23

MsBHavin said:


> Maybe you're on ignore as well? lol


Guess so.. One post and I'm already ignored? Don't start a thread if you can't handle the discussion to come, especially if you'll be rude enough to ignore simple questions that could be easily answered. We don't all understand what's desirable or undesirable in Arabians, we just want some information.


----------



## Speed Racer

Druydess said:


> Gunner, some of us have people on ignore and don't see what they're writing. We have chosen to avoid conflict. Also, those questions have been answered.


Translation: Anyone who doesn't agree with me 1000% I've chosen to put on ignore. Anyone who slobbers praise is wonderful, and considered of value since they agree with me.

Yes, that's a truly mature and adult way to have an actual _discussion_. :?

_None_ of the questions have been answered. They've merely been ridiculed, ignored, or the person asking them has had aspersions cast upon their character.

May I recommend a personal blog? That way you can weed out what you consider 'undesirables'. You know, the folks who might have a different opinion than yours.


----------



## amp23

Druydess said:


> I believe I answered your question amp. If you have another, I'd be happy to answer it.


If you could answer the questions from posts 120, 126, and 127 that'd be great. Two posters before me asked a few questions, I also had them on my mind, and basically said I was wondering the same thing. None of the posted questions have yet been asnwered.


----------



## Druydess

amp23 said:


> If you could answer the questions from posts 120, 126, and 127 that'd be great. Two posters before me asked a few questions, I also had them on my mind, and basically said I was wondering the same thing. None of the posted questions have yet been asnwered.


Amp- I did not have you on ignore- I replied to you immediately:

Quote:
Originally Posted by amp23 
Agreed. I've been reading this thread and not posting, but I've been wondering everything that has been asked about, conformation wise, etc. I have only personally known one Arabian so I am by no means an expert on Arabians but I do want to learn more. 

I think the horse is gorgeous, but every horse does has flaws so I'm interested to see the answers to the questions asked.

This filly was a long yearling in the photo and certainly not fully grown. She has no issues as stated, and went on to be exported to Belgium. Crabbet-bred Arabs, which Pharas are, tend to have more bone and substance than what is considered popular with some Arabian breeders. There is much variation among the different strains/lines. And Pharas are not your typical flavor of the month Arabian. Not every breeder is interested in breeding for the same thing, so there will be variations in a horse's "look."
__________________


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeds/phara-arabian-horses-95840/page13/#ixzz1WXPU3DOv


----------



## Golden Horse

These ones?



bubba13 said:


> So now I will ask:





bubba13 said:


> What is so desirable about this filly's conformation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She has a very short, possibly ewe neck, a weaker-looking back, and a Quarter Horse rump. The lack of flatness to the croup seems to be a characteristic of a lot of these horses, which really seems to go against the Arabian breed standard at large. I also noticed that many of the stallions shown in this thread tend to stand under themselves (not just their stance for halter--their natural conformation) and have mild calf knees. How do they fare, soundness-wise, under heavy athletic work / riding?





NdAppy said:


> Very interesting question. I would love to hear what the breeders have to say about this. Personally the horses posted look like finer bred quarter horses to me than they do arabians. :think:





amp23 said:


> Agreed. I've been reading this thread and not posting, but I've been wondering everything that has been asked about, conformation wise, etc. I have only personally known one Arabian so I am by no means an expert on Arabians but I do want to learn more.
> 
> I think the horse is gorgeous, but every horse does has flaws so I'm interested to see the answers to the questions asked.


----------



## bubba13

bsms said:


> I think my mare can kick his butt, even if she's a $1200 'noonewants':


See, again it all gets down to useability and the initial purpose of the Arabian horse. Your mare is not perfect, and she doesn't have the "pageant princess beauty queen" image that you see touted as the Arabian ideal, but she's a nice example of form to function, and again far preferable, in my eye, to MP. Let me guess--she still displays the important breed characteristic of high endurance?


----------



## amp23

Druydess said:


> Amp- I did not have you on ignore- I replied to you immediately:
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by amp23
> Agreed. I've been reading this thread and not posting, but I've been wondering everything that has been asked about, conformation wise, etc. I have only personally known one Arabian so I am by no means an expert on Arabians but I do want to learn more.
> 
> I think the horse is gorgeous, but every horse does has flaws so I'm interested to see the answers to the questions asked.
> 
> This filly was a long yearling in the photo and certainly not fully grown. She has no issues as stated, and went on to be exported to Belgium. Crabbet-bred Arabs, which Pharas are, tend to have more bone and substance than what is considered popular with some Arabian breeders. There is much variation among the different strains/lines. And Pharas are not your typical flavor of the month Arabian. Not every breeder is interested in breeding for the same thing, so there will be variations in a horse's "look."
> __________________
> 
> 
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeds/phara-arabian-horses-95840/page13/#ixzz1WXPU3DOv


 

Sure you replied, but questions weren't answered. Instead of discussing flaws, you denied them. I understand there will be variation among a breed, but you have put pictures up of your horses, basically claiming they are perfect and they are a perfect representation of the breed, but when there is so much variation between the Phara Arabians you have posted, how are they all perfect representations if they cannot all possibly have good conformation when they are all different?


----------



## Druydess

amp23 said:


> Sure you replied, but questions weren't answered. Instead of discussing flaws, you denied them. I understand there will be variation among a breed, but you have put pictures up of your horses, basically claiming they are perfect and they are a perfect representation of the breed, but when there is so much variation between the Phara Arabians you have posted, how are they all perfect representations if they cannot all possibly have good conformation when they are all different?


Where did I say they were perfect representations of the breed? I would never use the word perfect to describe a horse as none of them are.
I've seen this horse grown. She does not have a ewe neck, her croup is just fine, the hocks and pasterns on these horses have had no hyper-extension issues, her face is dished, etc. Simply because some of us don't agree doesn't mean the questions haven't been answered. I certainly would think a Vet is qualified to see such flaws and if she doesn't I tend to think that might have some value. Lastly, most people I know who evaluate horses, wait until they're full grown or nearly so for a true assessment of pros and cons. They also have them set up and not in motion to do so properly. Hence, a conformation critique here is not possibly accurate.
The questions have been answered.


----------



## MsBHavin

Huh, did a little googling. Apparently Phara breeders breed for the 'purple' color. And according to the website, they're all supposed to have extreme type..so why do the ones pictured...not go with the Phara standard?


What distinguishes the Phara Arabian? 

The Phara Arabian is easily recognized by several prepotent physical characteristics: their world-renowned extreme jibbahs, expressive round eyes and fabled teacup muzzles. In addition to their extreme type the 100% Phara Arabian is chestnut in body color (with a select few exceptions in the early years of the program), ranging from golden chestnut to purple, nearly black, chestnut. Mane and tail color are often flaxen, ranging from silver-white to orange flaxen locks. Classic children of the sun, their distinctive beauty is unforgettable.
http://pharaheritagesociety.com/Phara_Arabian.html


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

amp23 said:


> Sure you replied, but questions weren't answered. Instead of discussing flaws, you denied them. I understand there will be variation among a breed, but you have put pictures up of your horses, basically claiming they are perfect and they are a perfect representation of the breed, but when there is so much variation between the Phara Arabians you have posted, how are they all perfect representations if they cannot all possibly have good conformation when they are all different?


She did deny because in her opinion there were no flaws


----------



## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> She did deny because in her opinion there were no flaws


She has flaws, as every horse does, but as a youngster in a gangly stage, certainly not as stated. If others think she's not typey enough, or her butt is too big, well that's their opinion. They are welcome to it. It just isn't mine. Also, it might help to keep in mind this filly is about 25% Phara. There will be alterations in look as the breeding percentage lessens, though the prepotency does seem to carry over strongly.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> She did deny because in her opinion there were no flaws


I think what Amp was confused about (correct me if I am wrong, Amp) is that of the horses posted there really is not a standard look/shape/way of going so how are they all really great examples of the breed.



I could go back and read, Druy, but please tell me, is this filly showing yet? Is she doing rated shows? What is her registered name?


----------



## amp23

Druydess said:


> Where did I say they were perfect representations of the breed? I would never use the word perfect to describe a horse as none of them are.
> I've seen this horse grown. She does not have a ewe neck, her croup is just fine, the hocks and pasterns on these horses have had no hyper-extension issues, her face is dished, etc. Simply because some of us don't agree doesn't mean the questions haven't been answered. I certainly would think a Vet is qualified to see such flaws and if she doesn't I tend to think that might have some value. Lastly, most people I know who evaluate horses, wait until they're full grown or nearly so for a true assessment of pros and cons. They also have them set up and not in motion to do so properly. Hence, a conformation critique here is not possibly accurate.
> The questions have been answered.


I am not searching through the pages of this thread to find a quote. But any real questions, from the very beginning of this thread, have been put aside. I think all the horses as gorgeous, don't get me wrong, but anyone who has input other than "omg they're sooo gorgeous!!" does not get recognized. You have just acted as though your horses are amazing and there's nothing wrong with them, when none are completely perfect. Vets may not see every single thing wrong with any animal, no one is perfect. People do assess young animals before maturity, but sometimes conformation can change, I understand this. Just because it can does not always mean it will. Though you may completely disagee with many of the posters on this thread, there is no reason to be rude. We've just been asking questions.


----------



## amp23

Alwaysbehind said:


> I think what Amp was confused about (correct me if I am wrong, Amp) is that of the horses posted there really is not a standard look/shape/way of going so how are they all really great examples of the breed.


Yes, that's what I meant. They don't all look the same to me but it has been stated that some of them are great examples of the breed.


----------



## Druydess

amp23 said:


> I am not searching through the pages of this thread to find a quote. But any real questions, from the very beginning of this thread, have been put aside. I think all the horses as gorgeous, don't get me wrong, but anyone who has input other than "omg they're sooo gorgeous!!" does not get recognized. You have just acted as though your horses are amazing and there's nothing wrong with them, when none are completely perfect. Vets may not see every single thing wrong with any animal, no one is perfect. People do assess young animals before maturity, but sometimes conformation can change, I understand this. Just because it can does not always mean it will. Though you may completely disagee with many of the posters on this thread, there is no reason to be rude. We've just been asking questions.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I never said these horses were perfect. I don't see anywhere where I was rude, unless my comment about beating a dead horse is it, but the horse is past beaten by this point.
There was a lovely discussion on many levels about these horses. As I stated, some people are on ignore for good reason and by design, they will not be recognized. I answered your questions and I really don't know what else I can do to satisfy you.


----------



## NdAppy

Amp - Unfortunately you are probably better off talking to a brick wall at this point in time. She is not going to answer any of the questions that been put forth.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Druydess said:


> I answered your questions and I really don't know what else I can do to satisfy you.


You did not answer the question that is clarified in the post right above this one.


----------



## amp23

Druydess said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't see anywhere where I was rude.
> There was a lovely discussion on many levels about these horses. As I stated, some people are on ignore for good reason and by design, they will not be recognized. I answered your questions and I really don't know what else I can do to satisfy you.


Starting a thread and ignoring posters is rude. The 'discussion' part seemed to be mainly copying and pasting from a website on the Phara Arabian-something any of us could do.

So, what exactly is different about the Phara Arabian from the Arabian breed and why are they so special?

(honestly asking, not trying to be a smart alec)


----------



## Alwaysbehind

> So now I will ask:
> 
> What is so desirable about this filly's conformation?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She has a very short, possibly ewe neck, a weaker-looking back, and a Quarter Horse rump. The lack of flatness to the croup seems to be a characteristic of a lot of these horses, which really seems to go against the Arabian breed standard at large. I also noticed that many of the stallions shown in this thread tend to stand under themselves (not just their stance for halter--their natural conformation) and have mild calf knees. How do they fare, soundness-wise, under heavy athletic work / riding?


These are the questions that were the bases of the posts that Amp asked to be clarified before (that was ignored again).


----------



## Druydess

amp23 said:


> Starting a thread and ignoring posters is rude. The 'discussion' part seemed to be mainly copying and pasting from a website on the Phara Arabian-something any of us could do.
> 
> So, what exactly is different about the Phara Arabian from the Arabian breed and why are they so special?
> 
> (honestly asking, not trying to be a smart alec)


Amp- these people were put on ignore for other reasons than this thread and it would be unethical to say more about it than that.

I have posted countless pages of the qualities of the Crabbet Arabian on this thread. Pharas are Crabbet bred. Pharas combine the Crabbet qualities with dense bone, great athleticism, short backs, type, loyalty, extreme intelligence, beauty, and versaltility. There are many pages you can refer to to further expound upon their characteristics.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

amp23 said:


> Starting a thread and ignoring posters is rude. The 'discussion' part seemed to be mainly copying and pasting from a website on the Phara Arabian-something any of us could do.
> 
> So, what exactly is different about the Phara Arabian from the Arabian breed and why are they so special?
> 
> (honestly asking, not trying to be a smart alec)


It is not rude there are things before this that had set the ignore feature on this board into effect they were set in an attempt to allow the board to function peacefully because when you have people who mutually clearly dislike one another posting spats at each other the board isnt a very pleasant place to be. I proudly use the feature..its there for a reason.


----------



## NdAppy

Druydess said:


> Amp- these people were put on ignore for other reasons than this thread and it would be unethical to say more about it than that.


And you just proved my point.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Druydess said:


> Amp- these people were put on ignore for other reasons than this thread and it would be unethical to say more about it than that.


You are ignoring everyone though.

Do you not see it?

Amp is not on your ignore list and you claim to want to answer her questions but you refuse to answer her question because she is not the one who originally typed it? We know you can see it, it is quoted.

If Amp types out the question herself will you then be able to answer it since she is not someone you already hate?


----------



## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> It is not rude there are things before this that had set the ignore feature on this board into effect they were set in an attempt to allow the board to function peacefully because when you have people who mutually clearly dislike one another posting spats at each other the board isnt a very pleasant place to be. I proudly use the feature..its there for a reason.


I personally don't come to this forum to fight. I stay off questionable threads and will not respond to controversial posts/posters. I have no interest in doing so. Allison in an earlier post commended the use of the ignore feature. I'd say she was spot on and I'm doing my best to comply. I don't understand why if this thread is such a source of misery and aggravation, why people keep coming back to it. Staying on topic really shouldn't be that difficult.


----------



## amp23

Druydess said:


> I personally don't come to this forum to fight. I stay off questionable threads and will not respond to controversial posts/posters. I have no interest in doing so. Allison in an earlier post commended the use of the ignore feature. I'd say she was spot on and I'm doing my best to comply. I don't understand why if this thread is such a source of misery and aggravation, why people keep coming back to it. Staying on topic really shouldn't be that difficult.


Just as answering simple questions shouldn't be that difficult. You somewhat answered my question but not fully. How are they different from any other Arabian? I am by no means an expert but I do not see many differenced between Phara Arabians and any other Arabians..


----------



## SunStarArabians

Alwaysbehind said:


> These are the questions that were the bases of the posts that Amp asked to be clarified before (that was ignored again).


Amp - I was only starting to share information from the PHS website as an introduction. The text on the site consists largely of information from Annette Weber, the owner and breeder of Phara Arabians.

The Phara Arabian is athletic and versatile, loving and loyal. They are fine examples of three-circle conformation and not the caricatures of Arabians seen in the modern show ring or magazines. They are not 'silhouettes' either...horses that look good for the show ring but could not perform due to structural issues. These photos are not photoshopped and are shared in their original state.

Some will like them, others will not. The Phara Arabian is not the perfect example of the Arabian breed, unless you just happen to be one of the people that love them for the uniquely sweet and loving horses that they are.

If you would like for me to continue sharing photos and expanding on the Phara Arabians that I have owned and met, I will do so. I just ask that when asking questions, they be earnest and not meant as an insult. Which unfortunately, is the way I feel about a great many that have been on this thread.


----------



## SunStarArabians

amp23 said:


> Just as answering simple questions shouldn't be that difficult. You somewhat answered my question but not fully. How are they different from any other Arabian? I am by no means an expert but I do not see many differenced between Phara Arabians and any other Arabians..


You almost have to meet them to fully appreciate them  Anyone who would like to do so is always welcome to stop by if ever in my neck of the woods...


----------



## Alwaysbehind

How are the Phara lines different than other non-show ring lines?
Or are they similar and simply offer another option to the people who are looking for a riding horse vs. a show horse?


----------



## SunStarArabians

SunStarArabians said:


> You almost have to meet them to fully appreciate them  Anyone who would like to do so is always welcome to stop by if ever in my neck of the woods...


And to expand on that and try to answer your question better, I will give you some of my thoughts on this.

To me, personally, and this is my opinion alone...the Phara Arabian is wonderfully consistent in producing like individuals. When I breed to an outside stallion, I have a fairly good idea by looking at all the individuals in my Phara Arabian's pedigree, of what my mare _should_ produce. Since I have seen many of these individuals in person, it helps me to decide what my horse's weaknesses are and what I may consider something about her family that I want to improve.

In short, there's more similarities in the Phara Arabians than just their color. There are also more good qualities about them than bad.


----------



## Celeste

Does anybody know if Burgundy Sun is still standing to the public?

​


----------



## Katze

Alwaysbehind said:


> How are the Phara lines different than other non-show ring lines?
> Or are they similar and simply offer another option to the people who are looking for a riding horse vs. a show horse?


Love this question ! Anyone care to answer?


----------



## Druydess

Celeste said:


> Does anybody know if Burgundy Sun is still standing to the public?
> 
> ​


Yes, he still standing at Annette's, along with his full brother, The Sun Prince. I believe they are bred to some nice mares this year. SunStar may know more..
I may use one or both of them in the future for my Pharas.


----------



## Druydess

Katze said:


> Love this question ! Anyone care to answer?


Phara Arabians, like Crabbets, are versatile and they make equally great kids horses, trail horses, or show ring horses. Their temperaments are tractable and willing in varied environments.


----------



## SunStarArabians

Alwaysbehind said:


> How are the Phara lines different than other non-show ring lines?
> Or are they similar and simply offer another option to the people who are looking for a riding horse vs. a show horse?


Actually I'm super excited about The Sun Heiress being booked to Trussardi for 2012. I hope that this foal ends up in MR showing.

I see no reason the Phara Arabian couldn't hold it's own in performance classes and sport horse as well as being excellent pleasure and breeding horses. I use mine for riding and driving


----------



## Katze

Druydess said:


> Phara Arabians, like Crabbets, are versatile and they make equally great kids horses, trail horses, or show ring horses. Their temperaments are tractable and willing in varied environments.


So they are basically good "all round" arabians, depending how "fancy" thier looks/conformation depends on if they are show worthy like most purebreds, but like all purebred horses they have thier "niche" of admirerers! Druy they are absolutely stunning animals, your boy I would snatch up in a heartbeat!


----------



## bubba13

SunStarArabians said:


> The Phara Arabian is athletic and versatile, loving and loyal. They are fine examples of three-circle conformation and not the caricatures of Arabians seen in the modern show ring or magazines. They are not 'silhouettes' either...horses that look good for the show ring but could not perform due to structural issues. These photos are not photoshopped and are shared in their original state.


What is three-circle conformation? I googled it and could only find it mentioned in passing on Arabian sites, without a full explanation.


----------



## Celeste

SunStarArabians said:


> Actually I'm super excited about The Sun Heiress being booked to Trussardi for 2012. I hope that this foal ends up in MR showing.


Wow. Should be a great foal!


----------



## Druydess

amp23 said:


> Just as answering simple questions shouldn't be that difficult. You somewhat answered my question but not fully. How are they different from any other Arabian? I am by no means an expert but I do not see many differenced between Phara Arabians and any other Arabians..


I believe I gave simple answers. I haven't owned every Arabian, so that's kinda hard to answer. However, their consistent prepotency to carry on their qualities are a plus with this line. Versatility is a huge plus embodied by this line, along with very tractable dispositions. Their strength and endurance is amazing. They are very predictable and consistent with the get they produce.


----------



## Druydess

Katze said:


> So they are basically good "all round" arabians, depending how "fancy" thier looks/conformation depends on if they are show worthy like most purebreds, but like all purebred horses they have thier "niche" of admirerers! Druy they are absolutely stunning animals, your boy I would snatch up in a heartbeat!


Yes Katze, they really are. Many Arabians bred today are geared toward one end result. Halter, English, etc.. Pharas aren't they can do pretty much all of it. Just like any breed, some are typier than others; some better at this or that, but they are all-arounders, as Crabbets were bred to be. My stallion can go all day and never tire. He is very smooth and graceful- just love to watch him move..
I understand they're not for everyone, but that's ok, there aren't that many to go around..:wink:
Thank you Katze!


----------



## Speed Racer

Katze said:


> So they are basically good "all round" Arabians, depending how "fancy" their looks/conformation depends on if they are show worthy like most purebreds, but like all purebred horses they have their "niche" of admirers!


Exactly right, Katze.

They're nice enough looking horses and some people have fallen in love with this particular breeding line, which is all well and good. Doesn't make them more special than any other lineage, except to those for whom these particular horses are a passion. 

Some people prefer halter type horses. They're certainly not my cup of tea, because I prefer a horse who can perform under saddle instead of primarily in hand.

I remember back in the day when a halter champion would also have wins in performance classes. Nowadays you don't see too much of that happening, because of the sharp divergence of the halter and performance lines.


----------



## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> Actually I'm super excited about The Sun Heiress being booked to Trussardi for 2012. I hope that this foal ends up in MR showing.
> 
> I see no reason the Phara Arabian couldn't hold it's own in performance classes and sport horse as well as being excellent pleasure and breeding horses. I use mine for riding and driving


I plan to show some Pharas in main ring next year and will see how they do. I believe they would excel in Sport Horse with their solid bodies and movement, as my Crabbet mare has.

That's what I forgot..Amp- the other thing that defines the Pharas is their incredible movement and how consistently they pass that on..
This is certainly something that sets them apart:


----------



## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> Actually I'm super excited about The Sun Heiress being booked to Trussardi for 2012. I hope that this foal ends up in MR showing.


Can't wait to see that combo. 

I see no reason that wouldn't be a MR contender as gorgeous as both horses are..


----------



## amp23

He does have gorgeous movement and is very responsive and alert to the kids around him. Beautiful horse.

Are they more of show horses or 'pleasure' horses?


----------



## sahararae

sorry this is way off... but i can't figher out how to make threds?


----------



## bubba13

sahararae said:


> sorry this is way off... but i can't figher out how to make threds?


Should be something in forum help or whatever, but just go to a forum subdivision, and click on the "new thread" button in the upper left (I'm assuming you're using the Horse Forum green skin).


----------



## SunStarArabians

bubba13 said:


> What is three-circle conformation? I googled it and could only find it mentioned in passing on Arabian sites, without a full explanation.


Oh this is hard to explain without a white board! But imagine three circles in the body of an Arabian...one for the chest, one for the belly, and one for the hindquarters...and then draw a line to connect them making the underside of the belly and the topline of the back. I believe that Gladys Brown Edwards spoke of this and have been searching for the quote ever since I thought of it...which is why I have dragged my boxes up to my room of all my old Arabian magazines and books. I will scan it in if/when I find it, I always thought it was a great visualization!


----------



## Druydess

amp23 said:


> He does have gorgeous movement and is very responsive and alert to the kids around him. Beautiful horse.
> 
> Are they more of show horses or 'pleasure' horses?


The alertness and responsiveness does seem to be common to all of them.

They do both. Annette has shown several of hers through the years I believe but she's getting up in age now and can't do the same things she did years ago.


----------



## SunStarArabians

Druydess said:


> The alertness and responsiveness does seem to be common to all of them.
> 
> They do both. Annette has shown several of hers through the years I believe but she's getting up in age now and can't do the same things she did years ago.


This is very true, Annette will not send the horses out to trainers and she can no longer show them herself. I just moved, have a four-year-old daughter, am a full time student, and operate our own business. As soon as I can, we'll be in the show ring...toting my daughter on her very own Phara Welara LOL

I like to ride English (Hunt Seat and Saddleseat as well as Sidesaddle), wish I knew more about Dressage, love Western and gaming, and can't get enough of driving (and hope to have a team hitch soon). With all this and parades and native costumes in the works, I sure hope that we can bring home some ribbons in the (hopefully) near future


----------



## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> Amp - I was only starting to share information from the PHS website as an introduction. The text on the site consists largely of information from Annette Weber, the owner and breeder of Phara Arabians.
> 
> The Phara Arabian is athletic and versatile, loving and loyal. They are fine examples of three-circle conformation and not the caricatures of Arabians seen in the modern show ring or magazines. They are not 'silhouettes' either...horses that look good for the show ring but could not perform due to structural issues. These photos are not photoshopped and are shared in their original state.
> 
> Some will like them, others will not. The Phara Arabian is not the perfect example of the Arabian breed, unless you just happen to be one of the people that love them for the uniquely sweet and loving horses that they are.
> 
> If you would like for me to continue sharing photos and expanding on the Phara Arabians that I have owned and met, I will do so. I just ask that when asking questions, they be earnest and not meant as an insult. Which unfortunately, is the way I feel about a great many that have been on this thread.


I would love for you to continue- I was learning quite a lot from your posts and was enjoying the discussion.


----------



## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> Oh this is hard to explain without a white board! But imagine three circles in the body of an Arabian...one for the chest, one for the belly, and one for the hindquarters...and then draw a line to connect them making the underside of the belly and the topline of the back. I believe that Gladys Brown Edwards spoke of this and have been searching for the quote ever since I thought of it...which is why I have dragged my boxes up to my room of all my old Arabian magazines and books. I will scan it in if/when I find it, I always thought it was a great visualization!


It's a common skill learned in Art. I've used the technique in drawing charcoals and pastels and it is very helpful in "seeing" structure in a different way..


----------



## Druydess

SunStarArabians said:


> This is very true, Annette will not send the horses out to trainers and she can no longer show them herself. I just moved, have a four-year-old daughter, am a full time student, and operate our own business. As soon as I can, we'll be in the show ring...toting my daughter on her very own Phara Welara LOL
> 
> I like to ride English (Hunt Seat and Saddleseat as well as Sidesaddle), wish I knew more about Dressage, love Western and gaming, and can't get enough of driving (and hope to have a team hitch soon). With all this and parades and native costumes in the works, I sure hope that we can bring home some ribbons in the (hopefully) near future


I understand being busy and you have your hands full, but I'm glad you'll be pursuing the show ring with your horses. It seems, unfortunately, the only way some people take you seriously. I've just started showing and it is exhausting, but so far my Crabbet, Magic has won Blues at both shows she's competed in- Reserve Champion at the last. And some people who never saw her in person didn't like her either..but- to each his own- the judges' opinions are what counts.
It's well worth it, and I plan on doing the same with my Pharas. :wink:


----------



## Faceman

NdAppy said:


> Since you have your panties in a knot i am going to quote myself so I don't have to retype it.
> 
> 
> 
> You started this thread to share the Phara type/breeding of Arabians. If you can't handle being questioned on why they vary from the breed standard and what is it that makes them special then you should not have started this thread.
> 
> If you wanted accolades on your breed/horses or choice you should have started a thread in the Picture section. Seeing as this is the breed section and not the picture section, questions and discussion about horses posted here is to be expected.
> 
> Like I said, if you can't handle being questioned on the whys and wherefores it is simple... Don't post.


I agree, although I'm probably on ignore, so I am probably talking to myself...pretty normal at my age...:lol:

I find it ironic there are so many positive editorial comments given, such as other breeds and bloodlines being referred to as the "flavor of the day", and how Arabs have contributed their great qualities to all the other breeds, but any type of negative editorial comment is dismissed as some sort of personal attack or irrelevant.

Why not call a spade a spade? Arabs are a very ancient breed, and although they are not particularly suited for what we use horses for in this country other than flat to moderate terrain endurance, which is why they are not particularly popular here, I think most of us like and admire them - at least the ones that aren't bred to resemble some distorted cartoon character.

The constant reference to Arabs going into making other breeds better is a one-sided point of view. If I were to take a one-sided view on the other side of the fence, I could say that other breeds were crossed with Arabs to better the Arabs, resulting in horses that were faster, stonger, larger, and more suited for a variety of tasks beyond endurance.

I take the middle ground, which I consider to be reasonable, and quite frankly more realistic. I raised Araloosas for many years...they make fantastic trail horses in rugged country that requires strength and power in addition to endurance. I never thought of either the Arab or Appaloosa half as being "superior" - just different...the combination of the two resulting in an ideal horse for a particular discipline.

While this may seem off topic, I would argue that as it is a direct response to statements made by the OP and those driving the discussion.

Any discussion of a breed and its history should be open to discussions about what the breed was intended for, what it is suitable for, and what it is not suitable for. Intended use is what determines the hows and whys of how a breed is developed, why its conformation is what it is, and so on. Aesthetics have never played a role in developing a breed. Sadly, in modern times I'm afraid we have too often let aesthetics override more critical and important breeding factors. A pretty horse can be, but is not necessarily, a good horse.

Many of the older breeds have a rich history, but I never see Appy or Morgan or TB or QH or Paint people tout their breed as the ultimate creation. Most of us appreciate what our breed of choice can and can't do and don't pretend that all other breeds could be improved by introducing blood from our breed.

While it is true that most breeds today have Arabs in their origins hundreds, or even thousands, of years ago, that is not a measure of how great Arabs are or aren't. Be realistic and step back in time...a new breed is developed (obviously) from the breeds at hand. Today there are lots of breeds to choose from as ingredients if one were to develop a new breed...as you go back in time there are fewer and fewer breeds to choose from. It should come as no surprise that most breeds trace to Arab or Turk or Barb roots - what else could they trace to?


----------



## Katze

Speed Racer said:


> Exactly right, Katze.
> 
> They're nice enough looking horses and some people have fallen in love with this particular breeding line, which is all well and good. Doesn't make them more special than any other lineage, except to those for whom these particular horses are a passion.
> 
> Some people prefer halter type horses. They're certainly not my cup of tea, because I prefer a horse who can perform under saddle instead of primarily in hand.
> 
> I remember back in the day when a halter champion would also have wins in performance classes. Nowadays you don't see too much of that happening, because of the sharp divergence of the halter and performance lines.


I havto agree with you there SR, I will never buy a horse that is only pretty halter type, he/she MUST be able to perform under saddle and be a regular joe type of horse as well. I mean how boring would that be? Sure you could look at him all day, but that will get tiresome fast imo ****.

Druy Golden Ecstasy is absolutely STUNNING! Is he used under saddle as well? 

As for that Magnum Psyche, he "turns me off" for some reason, there's something just *wrong* about him and I cannot for the life of me put my finger on it....is his coat dyed, he has ALOT of orange pigment to his coat. 











I too prefer my horses with more bone to them, these "refined" weak boned horses that some are breeding give me the willies, they honestly look like they could break in two....bigger butts & stronger legs & backs = win win imo.


----------



## Druydess

Celeste- I found this pic from the Phara site of The Sun Prince, Burgundy Sun's full brother. He passes on the typey face, small muzzle and great bone from what I've seen. I wish there were more pics of his get available to compare..


----------



## Celeste

He is beautiful!


----------



## Druydess

Katze said:


> I havto agree with you there SR, I will never buy a horse that is only pretty halter type, he/she MUST be able to perform under saddle and be a regular joe type of horse as well. I mean how boring would that be? Sure you could look at him all day, but that will get tiresome fast imo ****.
> 
> Druy Golden Ecstasy is absolutely STUNNING! Is he used under saddle as well?
> 
> As for that Magnum Psyche, he "turns me off" for some reason, there's something just *wrong* about him and I cannot for the life of me put my finger on it....is his coat dyed, he has ALOT of orange pigment to his coat.
> 
> 
> I too prefer my horses with more bone to them, these "refined" weak boned horses that some are breeding give me the willies, they honestly look like they could break in two....bigger butts & stronger legs & backs = win win imo.


I am not crazy about halter or Magnum Psyche himself, though his get have been pretty nice. I like my Arabs as you do..

GE is one of a kind Katze. If he was for sale, I'd buy him. He is a personal mount for his owner who has retired from breeding and is as gentle as seen in the video. He's just under 90% CMK, and Phara, again showing the consistency in disposition, beauty, and movement.


----------



## Druydess

Burgundy Sun- the fabled "purple" horse..with the orange mane and tail.



















And yes, it actually is a color- it's called "Burgundy."


----------



## Katze

Druy if GE would ever come up for sale I would buy him in a heartbeat! It's also great that he's not a paddock possum type of horse and that his owner actually uses him =)


----------



## Celeste

A horse of a different color. 
He really does look purple in that picture. 
Pretty.


----------



## Druydess

Katze said:


> Druy if GE would ever come up for sale I would buy him in a heartbeat! It's also great that he's not a paddock possum type of horse and that his owner actually uses him =)


LOL- I'd fight ya for him!! :wink:

I had the same reaction when I investigated him, which is why I bought his son and daughter. His owner is absolutely in love with him, and though his book is closed, he remains intact due to his gentle nature. She and he are inseparable, and she has given him a wonderful life.


----------



## Katze

^^LOL! Too bad his book is closed, i'm sure he made some pretty babies =)


----------



## Druydess

Katze said:


> ^^LOL! Too bad his book is closed, i'm sure he made some pretty babies =)


He did. There's a slew of people very disappointed about his book closing. The owner had waiting lists, but her health couldn't keep up with the physical demands of transporting and collection.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Druydess said:


> I am not crazy about halter or Magnum Psyche himself, though his get have been pretty nice. I like my Arabs as you do..
> 
> GE is one of a kind Katze. If he was for sale, I'd buy him. He is a personal mount for his owner who has retired from breeding and is as gentle as seen in the video. He's just under 90% CMK, and Phara, again showing the consistency in disposition, beauty, and movement.


I have a friend who is big into arabs she just aquired a halter bred arab poor filly is a loose cannon the fillies mother was found dead in the stall at the trainers if my memory is correct the *** over pumped the roids on her some trainer whose been in trouble for these sorts of incidents I had thoughts of showing my colt in halter just to get my feet wet in the show world while he was to young for saddle work and the trainers wanted me to pump him up...I said hell no not gonna happen IMO the using horses are the best examples of their breed. the ones standing around in a pretty halter all fluffed up are life sized breyer horse good for nothing other than to look at.


----------



## SunStarArabians

Faceman said:


> I agree, although I'm probably on ignore, so I am probably talking to myself...pretty normal at my age...:lol:
> 
> I find it ironic there are so many positive editorial comments given, such as other breeds and bloodlines being referred to as the "flavor of the day", and how Arabs have contributed their great qualities to all the other breeds, but any type of negative editorial comment is dismissed as some sort of personal attack or irrelevant.
> 
> Why not call a spade a spade? Arabs are a very ancient breed, and although they are not particularly suited for what we use horses for in this country other than flat to moderate terrain endurance, which is why they are not particularly popular here, I think most of us like and admire them - at least the ones that aren't bred to resemble some distorted cartoon character.
> 
> The constant reference to Arabs going into making other breeds better is a one-sided point of view. If I were to take a one-sided view on the other side of the fence, I could say that other breeds were crossed with Arabs to better the Arabs, resulting in horses that were faster, stonger, larger, and more suited for a variety of tasks beyond endurance.
> 
> I take the middle ground, which I consider to be reasonable, and quite frankly more realistic. I raised Araloosas for many years...they make fantastic trail horses in rugged country that requires strength and power in addition to endurance. I never thought of either the Arab or Appaloosa half as being "superior" - just different...the combination of the two resulting in an ideal horse for a particular discipline.
> 
> While this may seem off topic, I would argue that as it is a direct response to statements made by the OP and those driving the discussion.
> 
> Any discussion of a breed and its history should be open to discussions about what the breed was intended for, what it is suitable for, and what it is not suitable for. Intended use is what determines the hows and whys of how a breed is developed, why its conformation is what it is, and so on. Aesthetics have never played a role in developing a breed. Sadly, in modern times I'm afraid we have too often let aesthetics override more critical and important breeding factors. A pretty horse can be, but is not necessarily, a good horse.
> 
> Many of the older breeds have a rich history, but I never see Appy or Morgan or TB or QH or Paint people tout their breed as the ultimate creation. Most of us appreciate what our breed of choice can and can't do and don't pretend that all other breeds could be improved by introducing blood from our breed.
> 
> While it is true that most breeds today have Arabs in their origins hundreds, or even thousands, of years ago, that is not a measure of how great Arabs are or aren't. Be realistic and step back in time...a new breed is developed (obviously) from the breeds at hand. Today there are lots of breeds to choose from as ingredients if one were to develop a new breed...as you go back in time there are fewer and fewer breeds to choose from. It should come as no surprise that most breeds trace to Arab or Turk or Barb roots - what else could they trace to?


You know what, I actually agree with quite a bit here. Each horse and breed and bloodline has it's own fans though, and to each their own. I think that ANY HORSE is a wonderful thing and a beauty in their own way. Do I think that any breed is superior? Nope, I don't. I love them all and have worked with and owned quite a few.

I do love seeing the crosses (such as the Araloosas you mention) but do not like to see (for example) Saddlebred bred into the Arabian breed to make better English Pleasure horses. IMHO if you want a Saddlebred, then buy one. If you are looking for a certain horse to excel in a specific performance discipline then you are best served with finding the most suitable breed and then looking for individuals within it.

I also have to point out that not every horse that "should" do well in a specific arena is meant for it...and I would hope that those horses get to try other disciplines until they find one that they cannot only excel in, but also enjoy.


----------



## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I have a friend who is big into arabs she just aquired a halter bred arab poor filly is a loose cannon the fillies mother was found dead in the stall at the trainers if my memory is correct the *** over pumped the roids on her some trainer whose been in trouble for these sorts of incidents I had thoughts of showing my colt in halter just to get my feet wet in the show world while he was to young for saddle work and the trainers wanted me to pump him up...I said hell no not gonna happen IMO the using horses are the best examples of their breed. the ones standing around in a pretty halter all fluffed up are life sized breyer horse good for nothing other than to look at.


It's amazing what I'm learning goes on in this"game" One big name has been banned for lipo-ing a National Champion's neck, (and allowed back in), another few favorites have crooked legs, but they have a name- so they win. At the show this weekend, I saw a National Champion terrified of his handler, harassed for 15 minutes, with crooked legs, but kept moving like a maniac so he couldn't be evaluated properly..
I'm so glad my trainer will have nothing to do with this abuse in order to win. We won without abusing our horses.


----------



## Speed Racer

SunStarArabians said:


> I do love seeing the crosses (such as the Araloosas you mention) but do not like to see (for example) Saddlebred bred into the Arabian breed to make better English Pleasure horses. IMHO if you want a Saddlebred, then buy one.


I completely agree with you on this point. If they want to breed an Arabian to look like a Saddlebred, why try to reinvent the wheel? Just buy a Saddlebred.

I had a performance, show bred Arabian gelding. His sire was a Nationals Top 10, and he also had other performance champions in his lineage. 

That horse hated the show ring. As in a literal hatred. He was quite possibly the most miserable show horse I've ever met, and I've met some that have been burned out by being shown too young and far too much.

I had a judge tell me my horse would have placed higher, but he was so obviously miserable with the whole thing he couldn't, because an English Pleasure horse needed to_ look_ like he was having a good time, and mine simply did not.

I finally found a discipline at which my horse excelled; competitive trail riding. He loved performing, just not in the show ring. He was bred for the show ring, but you can't make them love it if they don't.

Better to suit the discipline to the horse, than try to suit the horse to the discipline.


----------



## mumiinek

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I have a friend who is big into arabs she just aquired a halter bred arab poor filly is a loose cannon the fillies mother was found dead in the stall at the trainers if my memory is correct the *** over pumped the roids on her some trainer whose been in trouble for these sorts of incidents I had thoughts of showing my colt in halter just to get my feet wet in the show world while he was to young for saddle work and the trainers wanted me to pump him up...I said hell no not gonna happen IMO the using horses are the best examples of their breed. the ones standing around in a pretty halter all fluffed up are life sized breyer horse good for nothing other than to look at.


I'm sorry but can you please start using punctuation marks when writing? It's very difficult to read and even more difficult to understand what you meant to say...


----------



## BarrelracingArabian

bubba13 said:


> I think this horse is extremely cute, and also quite well conformed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At the same time, he's definitely lacking in "type." This is not necessarily a bad thing, unless you want to show at breed shows. But this guy could practically pass as a Quarter Horse. That said, I really like him!


 well thank you bubba :] he really isn't a show horse actually bred more for endurance wise as are all the other horses minus the one after him. Oh and he really isn't butt high just kind of in a hole


----------



## Katze

BarrelracingArabian said:


> well thank you bubba :] he really isn't a show horse actually bred more for endurance wise as are all the other horses minus the one after him. Oh and he really isn't butt high just kind of in a hole


So does that make him a Holey Ayrab?:lol:


----------



## Faceman

Katze said:


> I too prefer my horses with more bone to them, these "refined" weak boned horses that some are breeding give me the willies, they honestly look like they could break in two....bigger butts & stronger legs & backs = win win imo.


Remember that Arab bone is denser than that of other more contemporary breeds, so doesn't require the same thickness. Now with that being said, I don't know if Americans, in their breeding for aesthetics, have bred poorly as they have in other breeds and have attenuated that density, but in general Arabs have extraordinarily strong bone.

The opposite of that would be the Thoroughbreds, which have been bred for very light bone in order to achieve more speed. An Arab that may appear spindly legged is generally much more hardy and sound than you might think. This is just another reason that, while all breeds must adhere to a basic form to function conformation, you cannot always judge one breed by direct comparisons with another...


----------



## reiningfan

Druydess said:


> It's amazing what I'm learning goes on in this"game" One big name has been banned for lipo-ing a National Champion's neck, (and allowed back in), another few favorites have crooked legs, but they have a name- so they win. At the show this weekend, I saw a National Champion terrified of his handler, harassed for 15 minutes, with crooked legs, but kept moving like a maniac so he couldn't be evaluated properly..
> I'm so glad my trainer will have nothing to do with this abuse in order to win. We won without abusing our horses.


 
It is amazing to see what some owners and/or trainers will do to win. Gingering is another prime example of abuse some trainers like to dole out. Why can't they just admire the horse the way it is?


----------



## Katze

reiningfan, not to sound like a total doorknob....but what is gingering?


----------



## BarrelracingArabian

Katze said:


> So does that make him a Holey Ayrab?:lol:


 hahaha hmmmm well I sure hope not!! hah he is quite the devil! 
and also to the



Celeste said:


> This is a horse that one of our posters thinks is a good Arab. It is a nice backyard horse for sure. But for those of us who find certain comments about high dollar show horses offensive, I must say, consider the source.


 Uhm I'm pretty sure that was unnecessary. He is actually well built, comfortable ride,stocky and no not backyard bred. The guy who bred him bred specifically for more bone then type as his were race/endurance horses not those fine boned breakable looking high dollar horses that will break down in a few years of work the way my boy does.Also high dollar does not by any means mean better as I the most expensive horse we have on our ranch right now has had way more problems then the less then stellar actually mediocre horses that are still going strong at 20-25.


----------



## Druydess

reiningfan said:


> It is amazing to see what some owners and/or trainers will do to win. Gingering is another prime example of abuse some trainers like to dole out. Why can't they just admire the horse the way it is?


Some people value winning more than the welfare of the horse.
I find it appalling.


----------



## SunStarArabians

reiningfan said:


> It is amazing to see what some owners and/or trainers will do to win. Gingering is another prime example of abuse some trainers like to dole out. Why can't they just admire the horse the way it is?


I worked for a Saddlebred trainer when I was 18 and saw this far too frequently at the shows...I say we take all those who use it and give them a 'taste' of their own medicine :shock:


----------



## MsBHavin

Katze said:


> reiningfan, not to sound like a total doorknob....but what is gingering?


Trainers/owners put ginger (the actual ginger ) up inside the horses rectum to get them to parade around with their tail up. I know of plenty of peoples trainers who've used it. Which is why their horses aren't in the big leagues.


----------



## SunStarArabians

*Gingering*



Katze said:


> reiningfan, not to sound like a total doorknob....but what is gingering?


Gingering is what some people do at shows to make the horses hold their tails...they apply ginger (spice) inserted into the rectum, which obviously agitates the area making the horse hold their tail up and look 'purty'


----------



## reiningfan

Katze said:


> reiningfan, not to sound like a total doorknob....but what is gingering?


Basically, it is putting ginger up a horse's "behind" to make it carry it's tail high and give it more animation. Although now, there is an actual paste to do so with.


----------



## Katze

son of a ....... I say we hold those "trainers" down and ginger them up real good....I have lots of latex gloves!


----------



## Allison Finch

Yup, ginger is still the norm, even if illegal.

I showed a clients Arab horse, sidesaddle, at at a huge Arab show in Denver. I was out of my element with all the Arab "normal" stuff. This gelding was fabulous and did wonderfully in the large class. We were in very traditional English attire and tack. Even against the very showy BRIGHT colored costumes, this horse held his own. 

Imagine my surprise when a ring steward whispered to the owners that we would have placed higher if we had gingered him.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

mumiinek said:


> I'm sorry but can you please start using punctuation marks when writing? It's very difficult to read and even more difficult to understand what you meant to say...


II normally do but it was a soap box moment. Sorry


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Katze said:


> reiningfan, not to sound like a total doorknob....but what is gingering?


I think its a soring agent like mustard seed oil, diesel fuel and hot pepper oil


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

MsBHavin said:


> Trainers/owners put ginger (the actual ginger ) up inside the horses rectum to get them to parade around with their tail up. I know of plenty of peoples trainers who've used it. Which is why their horses aren't in the big leagues.


Interesting; I'd have never guessed thought it was used like the soring agents in walkers. I know they started trying to make the arabs do that god awful goofy high stepping action.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Allison Finch said:


> Yup, ginger is still the norm, even if illegal.
> 
> I showed a clients Arab horse, sidesaddle, at at a huge Arab show in Denver. I was out of my element with all the Arab "normal" stuff. This gelding was fabulous and did wonderfully in the large class. We were in very traditional English attire and tack. Even against the very showy BRIGHT colored costumes, this horse held his own.
> 
> Imagine my surprise when a ring steward whispered to the owners that we would have placed higher if we had gingered him.


Ugh I'd have had to say something.


----------



## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Interesting; I'd have never guessed thought it was used like the soring agents in walkers. I know they started trying to make the arabs do that god awful goofy high stepping action.


I think the horse-world is full of insecure people who can not win without some kind of cheating factor, or are just too lazy to put the time into training a horse properly. People who play fair can be at a disadvantage, so it's very satisfying when they're the ones who take the ribbons.. :wink:


----------



## AlexS

Druydess said:


> I think the horse-world is full of insecure people who can not win without some kind of cheating factor, or are just too lazy to put the time into training a horse properly. People who play fair can be at a disadvantage, so it's very satisfying when they're the ones who take the ribbons.. :wink:



The judging standards need to change so that an unnaturally high tail does not win. As long as it is rewarded it will remain.


----------



## Celeste

Sad thing is that most Arab people that I know take great pride in NOT doing crap that is artificial. My horse holds her tail high enough. They must be breeding them more calm these days or the horses would kill people who tried to put ginger up their rear.


----------



## reiningfan

I'm not an Arab person, so I don't know if such a thing exists, but is there not some sort of list that owners can consult to see if their prospective trainer has had any infractions?
I put owners at fault too by using trainers that use or have used these methods. They are in effect condoning the behaviors. 

Back to the regularly scheduled programming. Lovely colors. I like a bright red myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Celeste

BarrelracingArabian said:


> well thank you bubba :] he really isn't a show horse actually bred more for endurance wise as are all the other horses minus the one after him. Oh and he really isn't butt high just kind of in a hole


 
BarrelracingArabian, You took my comments about your horse out of context, probably though no fault of your own. I said what you said. He is not a halter horse. A great horse, but not a halter horse. We were talking about halter horses.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

AlexS said:


> The judging standards need to change so that an unnaturally high tail does not win. As long as it is rewarded it will remain.


Sadly this is true.


----------



## BarrelracingArabian

Celeste said:


> BarrelracingArabian, You took my comments about your horse out of context, probably though no fault of your own. I said what you said. He is not a halter horse. A great horse, but not a halter horse. We were talking about halter horses.


while i understand this i still stick to the fact that halter horses of most breeds are becoming or rather have become rather just for looks then what they should be which is their usability in everyday life. The halter horses nowadays would have a much harder time out herding cattle or jumping. The arabians suffer alot as the are getting tinier on top of longer bodied/legged and necks with an overly dished face that I find rather unappealing...just my two cents


----------



## bubba13

Druydess said:


> It's a common skill learned in Art. I've used the technique in drawing charcoals and pastels and it is very helpful in "seeing" structure in a different way..


Surely you aren't talking about the ol' "how to draw animals" kids' art book technique?










I'm far from an expert in either art or anatomy, but I find the George Stubbs dissection approach far more useful both for understanding the "framework" of conformation and for drawing with an eye to accuracy and detail.


















Does anyone have any really good explanations about the validity of the three-circle theory? And how is it specific for Arabians and not every other horse? And won't, as the cartoon drawing illustrates, every horse exhibit the same three circles?


----------



## WildJessie

Sorry to bring up the "beaten horse" again, but some of the comments I read were just rude and uncalled for. Getting mad because someone wouldn't get to your question and then being even more snobby?Also are you sure it isn't because you don't like the answer you were given, because its not what you want to read/hear? If you want respect and earn it. Also those who said that other's needed to be more mature, maybe you should listen to your own advice. Some of the way these people acted were just childish. I personally like the looks of the Phara Arabian, but I also like horses that can work. That goes the same when I look for any type of horse I am looking into. Some of the other Arabian horses I saw, I couldn't believe they were Arabians, they were stocky and looked like ponies, one looked pregnant(I am sorry if someone finds that offensive, its just that is what the horse looked like to me.Once again I apologize if anyone finds that offensive.) and are NOT what I would consider what an Arabian should look like. There were a few horses that also Arabians, but weren't the "showy" look, but were very descent looking horses, and I would think they were Arabian. 

But if you are going to post something, be sure to take the heat that comes with it. Its the internet, don't get so mad. Its sad really if you do.

There are different variations within the breed, but Arabians have that certain "trait or something, that they all have that tells people that that horse is an Arabian. Same with Quarter Horses and Thoroughbreds, there is a trait they all share. Its in dogs too, there are different lines within the German Shepherd breed, but they all share one trait that lets people know that that dog is a German Shepherd. Its a trait soley for that one breed.

Ok now I am just rambling.lol. But my main point is: But if you are going to post something, be sure to take the heat that comes with it. Its the internet, don't get so mad. Its sad really if you do.Not everyone will agree with you, or answer the question they way wanted it answered. Sorry not everyone will think the same as you. I feel sad for the OP. She was attacked when all she wanted to do is share a line of the Arabian Horse breed and share pictures and she got attacked because she wouldn't answer someone's question, and they got mad because they had to ask more than once. The OP cannot be on here 24/7 as she is a breeder going out there, testing, titling and caring for her horses like a responsible horse owner/breeder does.(NO I am NOT saying anyone here is a irresponsible owner.) 

Sorry for the rambling rant.lol.

Please continue posting pictures and information. And please remain RESPECTFUL to each other! I didn't like coming back to this thread and seeing nothing but whiny rude people.

I am sorry if I offended anyone. Yes, the Arabian horse breed is my #1 favorite breed of horse, so I will defend it and the good breeders who breed them and those who rescue them.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

SunStarArabians said:


> Oh this is hard to explain without a white board! But imagine three circles in the body of an Arabian...one for the chest, one for the belly, and one for the hindquarters...and then draw a line to connect them making the underside of the belly and the topline of the back. I believe that Gladys Brown Edwards spoke of this and have been searching for the quote ever since I thought of it...which is why I have dragged my boxes up to my room of all my old Arabian magazines and books. I will scan it in if/when I find it, I always thought it was a great visualization!


It sounds like an interesting technique. I look forward to reading more about it when you find information on it.

I am shocked that if this is a standard way of measuring the conformation of a good Arabian that is it not something that one can find easily on the internet.



SunStarArabians said:


> I like to ride English (Hunt Seat and Saddleseat as well as Sidesaddle), wish I knew more about Dressage, love Western and gaming, and can't get enough of driving (and hope to have a team hitch soon). With all this and parades and native costumes in the works, I sure hope that we can bring home some ribbons in the (hopefully) near future


You sound very busy.
I recently started driving. Loving it. A team hitch sounds like a blast.

Are you doing the rated Arabian shows with your group? Or sticking with local level showing?



MsBHavin said:


> Trainers/owners put ginger (the actual ginger ) up inside the horses rectum to get them to parade around with their tail up. I know of plenty of peoples trainers who've used it. Which is why their horses aren't in the big leagues.


What I find so .... well I will use the word ironic.... about this is at the other end of the spectrum we have QH people killing the nerves to tails so the horse does not move their tail at all.
One camp wants lots of tail movement, one camp wants no tail movement.

It would be so nice if both camps would just admit that a tail is a tail.....


----------



## Druydess

WildJessie said:


> Sorry to bring up the "beaten horse" again, but some of the comments I read were just rude and uncalled for. Getting mad because someone wouldn't get to your question and then being even more snobby?Also are you sure it isn't because you don't like the answer you were given, because its not what you want to read/hear? If you want respect and earn it. Also those who said that other's needed to be more mature, maybe you should listen to your own advice. Some of the way these people acted were just childish. I personally like the looks of the Phara Arabian, but I also like horses that can work. That goes the same when I look for any type of horse I am looking into. Some of the other Arabian horses I saw, I couldn't believe they were Arabians, they were stocky and looked like ponies, one looked pregnant(I am sorry if someone finds that offensive, its just that is what the horse looked like to me.Once again I apologize if anyone finds that offensive.) and are NOT what I would consider what an Arabian should look like. There were a few horses that also Arabians, but weren't the "showy" look, but were very descent looking horses, and I would think they were Arabian.
> 
> But if you are going to post something, be sure to take the heat that comes with it. Its the internet, don't get so mad. Its sad really if you do.
> 
> There are different variations within the breed, but Arabians have that certain "trait or something, that they all have that tells people that that horse is an Arabian. Same with Quarter Horses and Thoroughbreds, there is a trait they all share. Its in dogs too, there are different lines within the German Shepherd breed, but they all share one trait that lets people know that that dog is a German Shepherd. Its a trait soley for that one breed.
> 
> Ok now I am just rambling.lol. But my main point is: But if you are going to post something, be sure to take the heat that comes with it. Its the internet, don't get so mad. Its sad really if you do.Not everyone will agree with you, or answer the question they way wanted it answered. Sorry not everyone will think the same as you. I feel sad for the OP. She was attacked when all she wanted to do is share a line of the Arabian Horse breed and share pictures and she got attacked because she wouldn't answer someone's question, and they got mad because they had to ask more than once. The OP cannot be on here 24/7 as she is a breeder going out there, testing, titling and caring for her horses like a responsible horse owner/breeder does.(NO I am NOT saying anyone here is a irresponsible owner.)
> 
> Sorry for the rambling rant.lol.
> 
> Please continue posting pictures and information. And please remain RESPECTFUL to each other! I didn't like coming back to this thread and seeing nothing but whiny rude people.
> 
> I am sorry if I offended anyone. Yes, the Arabian horse breed is my #1 favorite breed of horse, so I will defend it and the good breeders who breed them and those who rescue them.


Very good points Wild Jessie. Thank you. It's best in situations such as you describe to ignore contrary behavior. Unfortunately, some people behave in a way behind a keyboard they never would dare to in real life. Acknowledging it only feeds it. I find taking the high road a better alternative. If we all stay true to topic and simply respond only to those being respectful, this thread would remain pleasant and informative,


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Druydess said:


> Unfortunately, some people behave in a way behind a keyboard they never would dare to in real life.


You probably should not make such assumptions!
You are likely to be very wrong.



Druydess said:


> If we all stay true to topic and simply respond only to those being respectful, this thread would remain pleasant and informative,


Funny, but even you has not stayed "true to topic" and you for sure have not answered questions that were posted in a respectful way.

But....whatever....


----------



## goneriding

I had a judge run her hand down my mare's dock in a class checking for gingering because her tail set is so naturally high even at a walk. My horse cupped her tail when the judge did this which told her no gingering was used. I'm totally against it. The Arab should be bred for a tail carriage normally at about a ten oclock position. People get extreme to catch the judge's eye. When is enough, enough?


----------



## Speed Racer

Allison Finch said:


> Yup, ginger is still the norm, even if illegal.


That's too bad Allison, since it's been illegal for many, many years. Of course, so is taking your horse behind the barn and beating the heck out of it with a whip to make it look more 'up' for halter classes, but I know that's still done with far too much frequency. :-x

GR, I'm glad that judge actually checked. So many just don't take the time, which means those who are doing it continue to get away with it.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Alwaysbehind said:


> It sounds like an interesting technique. I look forward to reading more about it when you find information on it.
> 
> I am shocked that if this is a standard way of measuring the conformation of a good Arabian that is it not something that one can find easily on the internet.
> 
> 
> You sound very busy.
> I recently started driving. Loving it. A team hitch sounds like a blast.
> 
> Are you doing the rated Arabian shows with your group? Or sticking with local level showing?
> 
> 
> What I find so .... well I will use the word ironic.... about this is at the other end of the spectrum we have QH people killing the nerves to tails so the horse does not move their tail at all.
> One camp wants lots of tail movement, one camp wants no tail movement.
> 
> It would be so nice if both camps would just admit that a tail is a tail.....


I agree and they need to leave those tails the heck alone


----------



## Celeste

Alwaysbehind said:


> You probably should not make such assumptions!
> You are likely to be very wrong.
> 
> It would not be a good idea to say some of the things in person that are said to some of the southern ******* women on here. LOL!


----------



## Speed Racer

There are plenty of southern ******* women on this BB, and I've not known_ any_ of us to be too shy to say in person what we'll post on a public forum. :wink:


----------



## Celeste

Quit talking about me.........
LOL!


----------



## MajorSealstheDeal

Hey Dru, all politics aside, I always enjoy your posts and your horses. I think you are very classy.


----------



## Druydess

Celeste said:


> Alwaysbehind said:
> 
> 
> 
> You probably should not make such assumptions!
> You are likely to be very wrong.
> 
> It would not be a good idea to say some of the things in person that are said to some of the southern ******* women on here. LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> LOL- very true- they'd have some teeth missing..
Click to expand...


----------



## Druydess

MajorSealstheDeal said:


> Hey Dru, all politics aside, I always enjoy your posts and your horses. I think you are very classy.


Thank you Major. I try my best. I enjoy great conversation with interesting individuals. Glad you are enjoying the thread and the horses. Look forward to your input.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

Druy....might you take the time to quote properly....


----------



## Druydess

Found some pics of Burgundy Sun's daughter, Sun Rose Beauty..

Hard to tell her apart from her sire..


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

Druydess said:


> Found some pics of Burgundy Sun's daughter, Sun Rose Beauty..
> 
> Hard to tell her apart from her sire..



Lovely pictures surely a nice change of scenery for my eyes.


----------



## Druydess

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Lovely pictures surely a nice change of scenery for my eyes.


Same here..

Here's another of The Sun Prince:










Gorgeous head/neck, small ears, and I love that these horses actually have a motor..


----------



## gigem88

What a pretty boy!


----------



## Druydess

And one with the two brothers standing at Phara Farm:


----------



## Druydess

As was mentioned before, Lewisfield Sun God, which was the cornerstone of Phara breeding, was the product of a full sister/brother mating- line-breeding which in this case, was not only successful, but produced an exceptional individual..

Found some pics of Lewisfield Sun God's Sire and Dam, Aaraf and Aarafa, both by Raffles:










Aaraf won1st prize in saddle class at the National Show 1949 and 1950. Apparently his bold movement earned him the adulation of the crowd and the Judges.










Aarafa won the Nationals in 1950:









The product of this union:
Lewisfield Sun God:










Seems the best characteristics and amazing movement possessed by both Sire and Dam has passed through to present generations.


----------



## Druydess

AARAFA #2872 (*Raffles x Aarah, by Ghadaf) 1944 chestnut mare; produced 11 registered purebreds, including LEWISFIELD SUN GOD
"...both (Aaarief & Aaraf) were superior Park horses, as was their full sister Aarafla. They are by *Raffles ex Aarah, whos sire was Ghadaf, so have an "action" heritage from *Berk through both sire and dam."


----------



## Cacowgirl

Congrats on your show results! Love the pictures & the info. Since the horse in my back yard shares so many of these traits-I looked on his "papers" & there at the top-4th generation-was Raffles. & the son under him is Azraff G. So looks like he shares some of these bloodlines. He's a great horse & even though he's in his twenties now-I look forward to more time to enjoy him on the trails. He's VERY sound & just a fun horse to own & be around.


----------



## Druydess

Cacowgirl said:


> Congrats on your show results! Love the pictures & the info. Since the horse in my back yard shares so many of these traits-I looked on his "papers" & there at the top-4th generation-was Raffles. & the son under him is Azraff G. So looks like he shares some of these bloodlines. He's a great horse & even though he's in his twenties now-I look forward to more time to enjoy him on the trails. He's VERY sound & just a fun horse to own & be around.


Thank you for the kind words Cacowgirl; I'm very proud of how well Magic has done with so little experience in show. She also has some Lewisfield blood, as well as Raffles and Skowronek, which may account somewhat for her lovely movement. It doesn't hurt that she is the G-Daughter of the English Pleasure champion Duel either. 
You're fortunate to have a boy so close up to these great horses; they have left their mark on many Arabians. Though Raffles appears in many pedigrees, his characteristics shine through generations later..
Would love to see your boy's pedigree if you'd like to share it.


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## Cacowgirl

Don't know how much of the pedigree you might want to see. His sire is Beausonova C, & his dam is Balarinas Fantasy C. He is a bright chestnut w/four stockings & a face stripe. He has a lot of overreach & can really"float". He was being used as a therapy horse for kids w/special needs when I found him. I believe he's been ridden Western all his life, but I'm wanting to put my English gear on him & maybe we can do a little dressage, which I think can really condition a horse both mentally & physically. But he does do that "snakey" thing w/his neck, then he follows through w/his body, & that might be a little tough to ride now that I'm a senior, too!


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## Druydess

Cacowgirl said:


> Don't know how much of the pedigree you might want to see. His sire is Beausonova C, & his dam is Balarinas Fantasy C. He is a bright chestnut w/four stockings & a face stripe. He has a lot of overreach & can really"float". He was being used as a therapy horse for kids w/special needs when I found him. I believe he's been ridden Western all his life, but I'm wanting to put my English gear on him & maybe we can do a little dressage, which I think can really condition a horse both mentally & physically. But he does do that "snakey" thing w/his neck, then he follows through w/his body, & that might be a little tough to ride now that I'm a senior, too!


Seems I've heard of his sire, but don't have much info on him. What's your boy's Registered name if you'd like to share it.. You can always PM if not. Have any pics? 
Sounds like a great fella..


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## christabelle

Your Arabians are beautiful Druydess! Those lines have an interesting color to them. Have the Phara Arabian lines created any endurance competitors?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celeste

I was wondering if anybody is using them for outcrossing; such as to pure Egyptians?


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## Cacowgirl

Couldn't sleep, so I just got up to play a bit in the computer, Don't want to turn any lights on,but I;ll get that info tomorrow.I have a couple of pics but nothing recent. Got to get busy w/the camera. Got a new puppy "rescue" yesterday, & we are having to doctor her & had to get some supplies in for her, as the last puppy I had was more than 12 years ago-stuff has really changed! It's been a very busy W/E. So glad to have 1 more day off work.


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## Druydess

christabelle said:


> Your Arabians are beautiful Druydess! Those lines have an interesting color to them. Have the Phara Arabian lines created any endurance competitors?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you Christabelle! They are somewhat unusual at times..
I believe the colt, SDR Muscadore, was beginning Endurance training. I'm not sure what the other Phara owners have chosen for their disciplines, but being Crabbet/CMK bred, endurance would be something these horses would do well in. They have the strength, musculature, mind, and stamina. My boy would excel in Endurance, but I personally don't have the time or interest to pursue that course right now. Sun Star may know of other horses competing..

Have to run- training today for the next show- will answer other posts later..


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