# Is grey dominant?



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Grey is a dominant gene. A horse only needs 1 copy to go grey and a horse with 1 copy WILL go grey. A horse (sire or dam) that is homozygous has a 100% chance of throwing ALL grey babies.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

50% chance to throw grey is the horse has only 1 grey gene (heterozygous)
100% chance to throw grey if the horse has 2 grey genes (homozygous grey)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

And for some pictures...
Homozygous grey mare (closest to tree) produced 3 grey foals. First two grey foals were by a black stallion and the third was by a fleabitten grey stallion. The grey stallion was heterozygous grey, together they produced a fleabitten grey filly (standing next to her dam) and is proven as heterozygous grey by her non grey colt seen here leaping in the air. He was color tested as a foal so there wasn't guessing about his color when registration papers were sent in. 









Here he is at 2 1/2 years old, color tested non grey Ee Aa and started under saddle, he has tail plumage which makes the majority of his tail a silver color but that may grow out (my sister can hope as keeping tails clean looking is her pet peeve about greys lol)








His granddam was homozygous grey, his mother is heterozygous grey (was a 50% chance of homozygous grey and 50% chance heterogous grey at the time her dam was bred) and he is not a grey. 

Does that help understand grey? Grey is dominant but a coin flip if it is passed or not when there is only 1 copy of grey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pebbles42 (Mar 6, 2015)

SunnyDraco said:


> And for some pictures...
> Homozygous grey mare (closest to tree) produced 3 grey foals. First two grey foals were by a black stallion and the third was by a fleabitten grey stallion. The grey stallion was heterozygous grey, together they produced a fleabitten grey filly (standing next to her dam) and is proven as heterozygous grey by her non grey colt seen here leaping in the air. He was color tested as a foal so there wasn't guessing about his color when registration papers were sent in.
> 
> 
> ...


Wait one question 'cause the colt leaping through the air isn't gray, but gray comes in as it gets older. So if I'm correct that colt will eventually lose its color. Right?


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Pebbles42 said:


> Wait one question 'cause the colt leaping through the air isn't gray, but gray comes in as it gets older. So if I'm correct that colt will eventually lose its color. Right?


No, he was tested to not carry grey and so was registered as bay. Technically he is brown, second picture is that same colt 2 1/2 years later. 

Think of it this way, each horse has their coat color and when you breed them, you flip a coin for the baby's color. 

The fleabitten grey mare is genetically ee A? Grgr so you put a red gene on both sides of one coin as that is all she can produce is a recessive red. Another coin has agouti and while she wasn't tested, she has at least one agouti since she produced this colt when bred to a black. Another coin has the grey gene but as there is only one copy of grey, grey is on one side of the coin and no grey on the other side. The colt's sire is genetically EE aa grgr. Dominant black on both sides of one coin, no agouti on both sides of another coin, no grey on both sides of the last coin. Then you flip each coin in turn and what you get is the foal's genetic color. The mare's coins gave 1 red, 1 agouti and the no grey side of the grey coin. The stallion's coins gave 1 black, no agouti and no grey. Together the colt's genetics are Ee Aa grgr. He cannot and will never be grey because he did not get that side of the coin toss. 

Remember, each egg and each sperm are half of their parent's genetics. 

Ee (heterozygous black) has 50% of their eggs/sperm the dominant E and 50% the recessive red

EE (homozygous black) has 100% of their eggs/sperm the dominant black

.ee (homozygous red) has 100% of their eggs/sperm the recessive red (.ee because the forum capitalizes the first letter otherwise)

Grgr (heterozygous grey) has 50% of their eggs/sperm the dominant grey modifier and 50% of their eggs/sperm do not have the grey modifier. 

GrGr (homozygous grey) has 100% of their eggs/sperm the dominant grey modifier.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

If I understood correctly, the foal was color tested and is not a gray. But if it WERE a gray, they yes, it would be born that color and start turning gray.

Here is my foal when he was born, and last fall at age 4 1/2.


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## Pebbles42 (Mar 6, 2015)

Okay so it's not a 100% chance that even a heterozygous foal will be gray... 

Correct me if I'm wrong: 
Two gray parents = 100% (of course) 
One gray parent = Almost 100 but not always 
?????????? Right?


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## Pebbles42 (Mar 6, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> If I understood correctly, the foal was color tested and is not a gray. But if it WERE a gray, they yes, it would be born that color and start turning gray.
> 
> Here is my foal when he was born, and last fall at age 4 1/2.


And you can tell _HE_'s gray.:rofl::rofl:


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## Pebbles42 (Mar 6, 2015)

SunnyDraco said:


> No, he was tested to not carry grey and so was registered as bay. Technically he is brown, second picture is that same colt 2 1/2 years later.
> 
> Think of it this way, each horse has their coat color and when you breed them, you flip a coin for the baby's color.
> 
> ...


Okay so for it to be a 100% chance they have to have 
a) Two gray parents, be they homozygous or heterozygous 
b) One homozygous parent 
Correct?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Pebbles42 said:


> Okay so for it to be a 100% chance they have to have
> a) Two gray parents, be they homozygous or heterozygous
> b) One homozygous parent
> Correct?


One homozygous parent will give you a 100% gray foal. I believe if both parents are heterozygous they could still loose the coin toss. But I'm getting brain drain at this point. (Trying to remember Punnet's squares from high school). :lol:


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## Pebbles42 (Mar 6, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> One homozygous parent will give you a 100% gray foal. I believe if both parents are heterozygous they could still loose the coin toss. But I'm getting brain drain at this point. (Trying to remember Punnet's squares from high school). :lol:


Yeah 'cause in horse genetics you can't put 50 and 50 together and get 100% chance. You put 50 and 50 togehter and get a 100% chance.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Pebbles42 said:


> Okay so for it to be a 100% chance they have to have
> a) Two gray parents, be they homozygous or heterozygous
> b) One homozygous parent
> Correct?


100% chance of a grey foal requires at least one parent to be homozygous grey. 

When you breed two heterozygous grey horses you have a 75% chance of grey and a 25% chance of no grey

My family has seen the 25% chance a few times when breeding heterozygous blacks together. A black based grey mare bred to a black stallion produced a chestnut colt who turned a light rose grey quickly and stayed that dirty color for years before finishing the grey process. That colt's full sister was born midnight black and went grey (beautiful dapple grey for many years) and when she was bred to a bay stallion, she produced a chestnut colt who went grey.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Pebbles42 said:


> Okay so it's not a 100% chance that even a heterozygous foal will be gray...
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong:
> Two gray parents = 100% (of course)
> ...


 That is not right.

If a foal inherits even one gray gene it will be gray because it is a dominant gene. So one parent that is homozygous (2 copies of the gene) for gray will always produce a gray foal no matter what the color of the other parent. However, resulting gray foal will be heterozygous (1 copy of the gene) for the gray gene. After that foal grows up if it is bred it would produce gray if it passed along it's gray gene or color if it passes along it's color gene.

If you breed 2 heterozygous grays you still have a chance for another color, or a heterozygous gray, or a homozygous gray. Visually you can't tell the difference between homozygous/heterozygous grays.

Are you more confused now? LOL I'm not too good at explaining these things.


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## Roux (Aug 23, 2013)

You can use a Punnett Square to help you:









So in this example Bb is Heterozygous dominant and bb is homozygous recessive. 
Bb would be a horse with one copy of the grey and bb is no grey at all. There are 4 possible outcomes totaling a 50% chance of Bb (hetero) and 50% chance of bb(****).

You can fill out your own square with any other possibility for example BB + bb (Home dominant + **** recessive) will give you 100% Bb. Meaning the foal will be heterozygous for grey, only carrying one gene, but will have grey as the phenotype for the coat color. (Genotype is the gene and phenotype is the physical manifestation). 

Two Hetero will give you: Bb + Bb = 25% BB, 25%bb, 50%Bb. 

You can't just go off of the color along you need to know if they are Hetero or Homozygous.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Visually you can usually tell who is heterozygous grey if you can watch them grow up. Homozygous greys are much quicker to grey out than heterozygous greys, who can take over a decade to do so.

Progression of greying out on my late heterozygous grey Arabian mare:

At birth:











At age two:




















At age six:




















At age 10:











At age 27:










You can click on these photos to enlarge to see things up close.

Intermediate to the photos of her at six and ten was a stage where her coat had greyed out like in the ridden photo, but her mane and tail were still jet black.

My mare had one grey gene, and one bay gene - and greyed out slowly. Homozygous greys (two grey genes) generally grey out totally or near-totally by maturity.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Sue, you bring up another interesting facet of this conversation. The strength of the gray gene as in how fast it makes a horse gray out.

I've never had a gray horse but years ago I spent a lot of time hanging out on a quarter horse breeding farm. This was certainly before all the genetic testing that is available today. He had a gray mare that was snow white and during my time there she never had anything but gray foals. He either got lucky with all her foals or she was homozygous, there's no way now to know which. Since he never had a gray stallion all these foals had to be heterozygous for gray but they all grayed out rapidly. He had kept 2 fillies out of this mare so I also got to see a third generation come along. I have a picture of him riding Roman style on these fillies when they were very young, 2 and 3 if I remember correctly, and they were already grayed out to the point of having some dapples and partial gray in their manes & tails. When either of these mares had gray foals, again bred to a stallion of another color, they didn't seem to gray out as fast but still faster than your horse did. He kept a gelding out of one of those mares as his riding horse and that gelding didn't totally gray out until he was around 15.

So, after all that rattling, your post made me wonder if the gray gene starts losing power as it gets passed from generation to generation. I wonder if there's been studies on that? Hopefully if we have any long time breeders on here that have kept several generations of a gray can chime in with their experiences.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Each grey progresses at their own rate. Full siblings grey out at different speeds. I don't have all my family's pictures from the greys we bred and raised but my mom bred two grey mares to a black stallion two years in a row. First year gave her two grey fillies and the second year gave her two grey colts. 

Homozygous grey chestnut mare's foals by the black stallion were both born chestnut. The filly went to a light dapple grey by the time she was 4 years old and slowly lightened. The colt turned to a dark grey color by the time he was 4 and then started to lighten and was a dapple grey when he was 7 and a light dapple grey when he was 10. 

The heterozygous grey black based mare's foals by the black stallion was a black filly and a chestnut colt. The black filly stayed black with the white hairs slowly taking over and she was a nice dapple grey when she was 6 and slowly lightened up. The chestnut colt turned to a very light rose grey by the time he was 3 and stayed that color until he was over 10 years old. 

We don't have baby pictures of them but here are the two mares as long yearlings when my mom bought them at an auction and was having a friend help put weight on them. The black based grey was severely sun faded as they were in very poor condition for who knows how long. With good feed she turned nearly black except for her white hairs coming in. 









The homozygous grey mare at about 2 years old









Homozygous grey mare at 5 years old (chestnut based grey filly partially blocked by one of my sisters)









The trend of greys is that homozygous grey horses finish the process very rapidly and fleabitten greys are typically heterozygous greys. There are always trend breakers though. Saw a stud ad for a homozygous grey tested stallion who had some rather large fleabitten marks scattered around his body and face, looked like chestnut colored beauty marks 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

And to add in another kink with grey... Pair it with LP and you will have a horse that loses color even faster.


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## Tomkitty1988 (Mar 8, 2015)

I just joined the forum and don't know much about genetics. My question is this if you breed a mare that has no destinct color other than dusty brown is classified as a buckskin whose mother was a bay and sire was a a bay but grand sire buckskin with a gray what color will you get?


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Tomkitty1988 said:


> I just joined the forum and don't know much about genetics. My question is this if you breed a mare that has no destinct color other than dusty brown is classified as a buckskin whose mother was a bay and sire was a a bay but grand sire buckskin with a gray what color will you get?


Welcome to the forum. Can you post pictures of your mare? You cannot get a buckskin from two bays. Either your mare is not a buckskin or one of her parents wasn't a bay. Buckskin requires at least 1 black gene, at least 1 agouti modifier that controls the black to the points and only 1 cream modifier that dilutes the coat color. Cream does not skip generations but can be hidden by a black horse. 

Foal coat possibilities when crossed with a grey also depends on the stallion's color genetics which you cannot see under the grey blanket. If they stallion has two copies of grey (homozygous grey), the foal will be born a mature shade of whatever they got from mom and dad for genetic coat colors and then start the grey process and are just some shade of grey until the reach the end of the process and look white. If the stallion only has 1 copy of the grey gene (heterozygous grey), there is a coin toss whether or not the foal would get the grey gene or not. If the foal does not get the grey modifier gene, the foal will never turn grey.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

grey is not a color per say, but a color modifier, that causes pigmented hair to be replaced by non pigmented hair. Thus, a horse with the greying gene, can be born any color, and over time, will turn white. The rate of expression of the greying gene can vary-thus happen in a short period of time, or the horse might not appear completely white until in is old
When a horse, or any animal is heterozygous for a genetic trait, the dominant trait (in this case grey ) will be expressed, and the non dominant trait will be 'hidden'
Thus, that heterozygous grey horse can either pass on that greying gene , along with the base color, or the base color without the greying gene.
Bred to a non grey horse, the offspring from that grey parent has a 50% chance of having the greying gene passed on, or it can get that 'hidden' non greying gene that grey parent is carrying, thus be non grey.
If a horse is homozygous for greying, he will pass that grey gene on to all of the offspring.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I've been thinking about this conversation all day and was racking my brain to remember that gray mare's registered name so I could see if she was possibly on allbreed. What a futile attempt that was and then I happened to remember I own a gelding whose sire was out of one of those gray fillies ( duh, I have a serious case of CRS LOL). I knew I'd never added Gamble to allbreed but I was hoping when I started entering his info that it would pick up his lineage. SUCCESS! Still doesn't help though, do you all spot the interesting thing on her pedigree? Actually there are 2 interesting things but only one has to do with color. 

Lills Pride Quarter Horse


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

JCnGrace said:


> I've been thinking about this conversation all day and was racking my brain to remember that gray mare's registered name so I could see if she was possibly on allbreed. What a futile attempt that was and then I happened to remember I own a gelding whose sire was out of one of those gray fillies ( duh, I have a serious case of CRS LOL). I knew I'd never added Gamble to allbreed but I was hoping when I started entering his info that it would pick up his lineage. SUCCESS! Still doesn't help though, do you all spot the interesting thing on her pedigree? Actually there are 2 interesting things but only one has to do with color.
> 
> Lills Pride Quarter Horse


Biggest thing I can see is that there are A LOT of mis-registered horses in her pedigree! lol No way a chestnut and a dun can make a palomino (unless the dun in question was a palomino dun or a dunskin). And no way a bay and a sorrel can produce a grey...especially considering there's absolutely no grey anywhere else in the pedigree.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Oh and the other thing I got to thinking about was gray vs grey. You'd think I would have learned that long ago but if I did I forgot. Possible things running through my mind were:

English - American spelling

One spelling meaning the actual color of gray and the other white hair called grey.

According to my dictionary it is neither. Both spellings are perfectly acceptable and mean the same thing. 

So then I had to wonder how white hair came to be called gray?

P.S. I think I have cabin fever. Spring should have started in our area a couple of weeks ago and instead we've had winter making up for what she didn't give us in Dec. & Jan.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

You're right Drafty, I can remember him griping about AQHA not letting him register any of the gray foals out of that line as "gray". He finally sent them pictures of that mare and they changed the color on her papers but still didn't on at least the gray filly who was a grandma to my gelding. It shows her as a blue roan.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

JCnGrace said:


> You're right Drafty, I can remember him griping about AQHA not letting him register any of the gray foals out of that line as "gray". He finally sent them pictures of that mare and they changed the color on her papers but still didn't on at least the gray filly who was a grandma to my gelding. It shows her as a blue roan.


It could be something as simple as a parent registered as their foal color and the color change was never updated but that is a long line of greys that were not registered as grey. But they had no problem with a palomino out of a dun and a non dilute? :lol:

This mare is still registered as black: Basto Capella Part-bred Arab
My mom warned her brother that the midnight black filly with a few white hairs on her face was a grey but he registered her as black anyway and never changed it LOL

There could also be a chance that the registered sire was not the biological sire if the grey mare you knew had a grey sire but a different one was supposed to be the sire or they mixed up which stallion covered which mare. I don't know when AQHA started DNA typing for registration.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Sunny, I know nothing of that particular mare's background. She was already in the picture when I came along and the breeder didn't raise that mare himself. her pedigree sure looks iffy. I'm surprised no one has picked up that her dam was supposedly a '69 model and the mare born in '70. Of course whoever first established that line on allbreed could have made some typos. Come to think of it I may have a copy of an extended pedigree on that line, I'll have to dig through paperwork tomorrow. 

I can't remember for sure when AQHA started DNA typing for mares but I know my first mare was grandfathered under the pre DNA rules and never had to be typed. She was born in '88. Stallions had to be typed for as long as I can remember but I didn't get my first AQHA registered horse until 1985 so I certainly don't know any rules prior to that.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

JCnGrace said:


> Oh and the other thing I got to thinking about was gray vs grey. You'd think I would have learned that long ago but if I did I forgot. Possible things running through my mind were:
> 
> English - American spelling
> 
> ...


The last sentence in the link below, after my post, which is immediately below here, answers your question, maybe bteter than I have been able to. The greying gene is not a color gene, but a de -pigmenting gene>

White hair is called grey, because on a horse with the graying gene, the colored hair is replaced over time by non pigmented hair, and when this process is yet not complete, the horse goes trough a stage where it has a mixed amount of non pigmented and pigmented hair, that give it that 'grey look'
Based on what the coat color was, before that greying started, you have rose colored greys from chestnut horses and steel colored horses from black based coats
There are very few true white horses. Most are greys, or near maximum expression of the white of a coat color pattern-like a few spot leopard or could also be a cremello, a double dilute
In order for ahorse to be grey, he has to have at least one grey parent

Link paste:

*Gray* or *grey* is a coat color of horses characterized by progressive silvering of the colored hairs of the coat.[1] Most gray horses have black skin and dark eyes; unlike many depigmentation genes, gray does not affect skin or eye color.[1] Their adult hair coat is white, dappled, or white intermingled with hairs of other colors. Gray horses may be born any base color, depending on other color genes present. White hairs begin to appear at or shortly after birth and become progressively lighter as the horse ages. Graying can occur at different rates—very quickly on one horse and very slowly on another.
Gray horses appear in many breeds, though the color is most commonly seen in breeds descended from Arabian ancestors. Some breeds that have large numbers of gray-colored horses include the Thoroughbred, the Arabian, the American Quarter Horse, the Percheron, the Andalusian, the Welsh pony, and the most famous of all gray horse breeds, the Lipizzaner.
People who are unfamiliar with horses may refer to gray horses as "white." However, a gray horse whose hair coat is completely "white" will still have black skin (except under markings that were white at birth) and dark eyes. This is how to discern a gray horse from a white horse. White horses usually have pink skin and sometimes even have blue eyes. Young horses with hair coats consisting of a mixture of colored and gray or white hairs are sometimes confused with roan. Some horses that carry dilution genes may also be confused with white or gray.
While gray is commonly called a coat color by breed registries, genetically it may be more correct to call it a depigmentation pattern. It is a dominant allele,[1] and thus a horse needs only one copy of the gray allele, that is, heterozygous, to be gray in color. A homozygous gray horse, one carrying two gray alleles, will always produce gray foals.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SunnyDraco said:


> It could be something as simple as a parent registered as their foal color and the color change was never updated but that is a long line of greys that were not registered as grey. But they had no problem with a palomino out of a dun and a non dilute? :lol:
> 
> This mare is still registered as black: Basto Capella Part-bred Arab
> My mom warned her brother that the midnight black filly with a few white hairs on her face was a grey but he registered her as black anyway and never changed it LOL
> ...


True, at one time registries just looked at foal pictures, and then assigned a registration color, based on a visual appearence, and without any real knowledge of genetics
Also, before DNA testing requirements, there were inaccuracies , at times, far as what stud actually bred what mare, with a mare at times, exposed to more than one stud, or the wrong stud
Now, ApHC, anyways, if one parent is grey, and that foal shows any white hairs, the foal is registered as grey. People working in the registry now actually know something about genetics, thus know that grey is dominant
They are also aware of dilution genes .
As per link posted and what I have been trying to say, people have to get around the idea of considering 'grey' as a coat color gene.
It is not. It is a modifying gene that works on coat color, and more correctly classified as a de -pigmenting gene


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> White hair is called grey, because on a horse with the graying gene, the colored hair is replaced over time by non pigmented hair, and when this process is yet not complete, the horse goes trough a stage where it has a mixed amount of non pigmented and pigmented hair, that give it that 'grey look'
> Based on what the coat color was, before that greying started, you have rose colored greys from chestnut horses and steel colored horses from black based coats


Grey can do more than add white/non pigmented hairs progressively. Sometimes grey will also turn hairs to a darker almost black grey color before getting lighter. While you won't get a rose grey from a horse who is black under the coat, not all chestnut based greys are rose grey until they finish the process. 

Here is a chestnut based grey gelding on the far left at 4 years old, his full sister is just to the right with her rear facing the camera (5 years old and also a chestnut based grey)








Same grey gelding at 8 years old








Both this gelding and his full sister had all their chestnut mane and tail hair replaced by a darker grey color and white hairs. They didn't get a white/non pigmented shade of grey until their mid to late teens.

Another grey who lost all red colored hairs, went dark colored with white hairs before she got lighter. 
As a foal:








With her foal coat fully shed out:








Next stage (blocked partially by a bay gelding):








Next stage:








Next stage:








After this she just got lighter and lighter


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

These pictures show wonderfully how grey can darken a coat before lightening it...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

NdAppy, I would find it very hard to believe that the TB foal was born grey, then colored. It looks more like some dilution gene at work. What color are the parents registered as?
Sunny, the last pictures you posted of that foal, are sure that the foal is not born abay, thus black based?
I do know that my mare, 'Charlie', that I bred by transported semen, was born a loud chestnut, with blaze, stockings and a blanket. In her case, she was almost completely white as ayearling
Her sire is Awarded, who looked just like a black Leopard in the Appaloosa 
Journal
I guess the greying gene can work at different rates on An Appaloosa's base color, and any coaT pattern. He is most likly white by now.
My mare was a non grey
I became suspicious, when I saw a bunch of his winning offspring that appeared to be greying
Here is "Charlie'




Awarded, the sire



Here is the dam, Irish Love Bug, who I raised 12 foals from. 4 were solid, the rest had App coat color and Charlie, of course, being not by our stallion, would up grey


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> NdAppy, I would find it very hard to believe that the TB foal was born grey, then colored. It looks more like some dilution gene at work. What color are the parents registered as?
> Sunny, the last pictures you posted of that foal, are sure that the foal is not born abay, thus black based?
> I do know that my mare, 'Charlie', that I bred by transported semen, was born a loud chestnut, with blaze, stockings and a blanket. In her case, she was almost completely white as ayearling
> Her sire is Awarded, who looked just like a black Leopard in the Appaloosa
> ...


The grey progression of the foal NDappy posted was a palomino based grey. Was on a previous thread about palomino based greys. 

Yes the mare I posted was bay but she quickly took on a look of being a grey that started off completely black. The agouti controlled the black pigment to the points but the grey changed the body color before making it whiter and whiter with the progression of grey. 

I don't have any pictures of the gelding I also posted when he was 6-7 years old but telling people he was a chestnut as a foal (they were praising his beautiful grey color) at horse shows and they were completely shocked.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Interesting> If you know the science behind it, I would like to read it
Grey horses have a high incidence of melanoma, as that pigment is not taken up by the hair shafts any longer. Thus, I wonder if the hair that has not been affected by the greying gene yet, could pick up extra pigment? Just guessing a bit here, trying to make sense how more pigment would be taken up by the hair, in the presence of a de-pigmenting modifying gene???
I know that in Appaloosas, visually, the Appaloosa roaning gene is hard to tell a PART from the greying gene, and I have an Appaloosa roan filly that will go darker, and then be lighter again. Yes looking at her, you would not know she is a roan, versus a grey, but I owned both parents, so know she is not a grey.
Not saying that is the case here, as I'm sure you must know the genetics of the parents
If that filly was born a palomino, then those pics make more sense, as a palomino foal 's baby coat can almost appear white. I do know greys are not born grey, but you can often see the teltail white hairs around the eyes.
Therefore, in the case of that palomino, very likly the coat first darken, like any palomino foal's coat does, once baby hair coat sheds, then then the greying gene started to work on that palomino coat.
In other words, that baby 's coat showed no greying affect at birth, so the greying gene did not darken that coat, but rather it is anormal process for ababy that is born palomino, to be very light at birth, then darken as it shed out. Thus, you see the beginning of the greying in the third age picture, then more progression in the last


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This is an interesting site I came across, just reading about greys and roans , and how they are differentiated, confused , and the interesting scenario ' far as color effects, when horse inherits both a greying and a roaning gene

GRAY VS ROAN HORSES: How to tell the difference between gray and roan

This, from the genetic lab at UC DAVIS
I just can't find anything , far as the greying gene causing a coat to darken first. There has to be another gene that is causing that effect, because it makes no scientific sense, otherwise, unless someone can explain the science behind the greying gene actually darkening a coat first

*Gene G: Exclusion of Pigment from Hair*

Everyone is familiar with the process of progressive silvering of human hair color in which the hair color of youth, such as blond, brunette or redhead, turns to gray or white with age. Horses show a similar phenomenon of hair silvering with age in a color called gray (Fig. 1B). In horses, gray is controlled by the dominant allele _G_. A young horse with a _G_ allele will be born any color but gray and will gradually become white or white with red or black flecks as an aged animal. Earliest indications of change to gray can be seen by careful scrutiny of the head of a young foal, since often the first evidence of the gray hairs will be seen around the eyes (Fig. 1C). In intermediate stages of the graying process, the horse will have a mixture of white and dark hairs, a most confusing stage for trying to identify color.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here are some pictures of roan horses, and easy to see how that blue roan can look like a grey
Note, the article also states that roan is present at birth, and some roans get darker with age.
Roan (horse) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Not saying that the horses that appear to darken first, are roans, but that would make more sense . I still would like to know if there is a grey a parent, as people do confuse roans with greys, but greys have to have one grey parent
That is all so far that makes sense to me, far as what appears to be a greying gene, causing a coat to first darken, is actually a roaning gene
I will see if anyone comes up with a method/process, as to how agreying gene can first cause a coat to darken


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

From above article, a key point, JMO, concerning those greys that seemed to darken first

(won't paste, so you will need to read the above link, far as grey mimicking roans. It states that greys lighten with age
The defining point, of greys versus roans, is that grey horses lighten over time, so those greys that seem to darken first, until proven otherwise, must be roans


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> This is an interesting site I came across, just reading about greys and roans , and how they are differentiated, confused , and the interesting scenario ' far as color effects, when horse inherits both a greying and a roaning gene
> 
> GRAY VS ROAN HORSES: How to tell the difference between gray and roan
> 
> ...


Read the last sentence of what you quoted. The mixture of white and dark hairs is what can and will darken a horse's coat color in the grey process. Not every grey will darken before they get lighter. My mom has been going grey for decades but her brunette hairs went through a process of getting a mixture of dark grey and white colored hairs. You could no longer tell what her natural color was 15 years of ago as it had no traces of a natural color with the white hairs and even now it is silvery colored and white hairs. My greying hair (I blame kids  ) is all coming in white to mix with my brunette hair, some of those white hairs are confused and start brown, grow a section of pure white and then return to brown. Some of my individual white hairs are striped between brown and white, always starting with brown and switch between brown and white several times before usually returning to brown. Grey is just as unpredictable in people as it is in horses. 

There are trends of what causes rapid greying out in horses. The fastest known cause is the combination of grey and the appy LP gene. The next trend of rapid greying is caused by a horse having two grey genes.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> From above article, a key point, JMO, concerning those greys that seemed to darken first
> 
> (won't paste, so you will need to read the above link, far as grey mimicking roans. It states that greys lighten with age
> The defining point, of greys versus roans, is that grey horses lighten over time, so those greys that seem to darken first, until proven otherwise, must be roans


Roan does not darken the coat, they just mix white hairs from throat latch to knees/hocks (some roan beyond those points). Varnish roan is part of the LP gene in appys and almost mimics grey but leaves natural color scattered around (usually hard points)

The chestnut based grey gelding I posted was sired by a solid black AQHA stallion with no roans in his lineage and his dam was a gorgeous homozygous grey arabian mare. 

The bay based grey mare I posted is a registered purebred arabian sired by a heterozygous grey arabian stallion and out of a bay arabian mare. No roans are possible in her either. She is currently expecting a foal in May, sire of that foal is a registered purebred bay arabian.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, Charlie is heterozygous fro grey, and was white by the time she was ayearling
Never heard that the varnish roan was linked to the LP complex-just CSNB
The LP complex is just maximum expression of the white markings in a leopard, thus a few spot and a true snow cap are often LP/LP
That bay /grey, looks like he already has some black in his face as a foal, thus, again, that darkening can be just the true base coat color , after that foal coat is shed, an not due to the greying gene.
As for that sentence you qouted, I think you are reading abit into it, far as the confusion as that horse progressively greys. Nowhere di it suggest that it was due to the horse getting darker, because of the greying gene, but i will admit that many horses darken from their foal coat, as I have had foals born light brown to mature into dark liver chestnuts, so was there also a greying gene, it would work on that darker base coat, but the greying gene would have nothing to do with that darkening
I;m not doubting what your horse appears like, nor that they are grey, just not convinced that the greying gene caused any coat darkening, but believe the coat darkened,and then the greying gene worked on that darker coat.
If you can find me any reference where it goes into the greying gene causing a coat to darken, then I will be convinced, otherwise I have to consider that the coat darkened with time, as happens with many foals,and THEN that greying gene worked on that darker coat
The greying gene replaces pigmented hair with non pigmented hair, so how then can it darken a coat?It does not add pigment, but rather prevents it from entering the hair shaft
All the references that I have accessed, do state that roans can darken, while greys get progressively lighter. No where did it say they also can at times get darker, There has to be science to explain things to me-it is my lab tech mind set!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

*G* grey, this dominant gene is like a transparent plastic overlay, when the foal is born whatever color it would have been without the G shows through, thus it is black, or chestnut or bay or whatever, then as it grows older it progressively whitens as each new coat gets more and more white hairs mixed into it
here is a link on rate of expression-nothing about the LP gene, and not surprised as few spots are born few spot and hav enothing to do with greying

Behold The Pale Horse: The Genetics of Color and Cancer – Living the Scientific Life (Scientist, Interrupted)

Horses - The Genetics of Colour - horses and ponies on the internet


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> *G* grey, this dominant gene is like a transparent plastic overlay, when the foal is born whatever color it would have been without the G shows through, thus it is black, or chestnut or bay or whatever, then as it grows older it progressively whitens as each new coat gets more and more white hairs mixed into it
> here is a link on rate of expression-nothing about the LP gene, and not surprised as few spots are born few spot and hav enothing to do with greying
> 
> Behold The Pale Horse: The Genetics of Color and Cancer – Living the Scientific Life (Scientist, Interrupted)
> ...


LP + grey = a horse that greys very rapidly
Which is why your horse was nearly white as a yearling. 
LP creates many appy patterns and is unpredictable as to which one and/or expression. Some change their appy pattern from year to year so you get a new horse frequently. 

Grey foals are born a mature shade of their coat color. Have had many grey foals around me and the black foals who greyed were born midnight black head to toe with a few white hairs around the eyes. Most blacks (especially in the Arabian breed) are born a mousy color and have the lighter areas on underbelly and legs. The bay based grey mare was a bay as a newborn, not a black but started her shed straight into a steel grey. If you notice, she stayed darkest the longest on her true black hard points as well as her mane and tail. The black foals we had who greyed got the mix of white hairs everywhere including below the knees/hocks, manes and tails within the first few years. Every year a grey does whiten because they have more white hairs every year but they can also have their natural color replaced by darker grey hairs before they lighten in the grey progression. 

My oldest sister had a filly born ages ago, light chestnut at birth but with the signs of grey around the eyes. That summer she body clipped the fuzzy foal coat off when she entered a 4-H show. She was a silver grey all over her body with a still bright chestnut mane and tail. She was still a silver grey that fall, winter and next spring but the chestnut colored mane and tail took longer to turn into a mixture of silver and white. She stayed a light grey forever and as she slowly lightened she also appeared darker in the summer with a growing number of fleabites everywhere, the fleabites are nearly invisible in her winter coat and at the age of twenty (as of this spring) she does have a now white mane and tail but not a true white looking body due to her fleabitten chestnuts spots. 

Look again at the picture of the bay based grey mare I had posted. As a fully shed out foal, she had light brown/red still showing on her muzzle and her rear. The grey just hadn't turned them from their natural base color yet, black foals don't have that coloring in the grey process. 

I did not read too much into that last sentence, it had implied that the dark and white hairs of a grey make it hard to distinguish color. The translation of that does not mean color and white hairs, dark and white meaning that you cannot distinguish the base color because it is not visible because the hairs are dark (not base color but a grey color of some shade) and white. Like that chestnut based grey gelding, his forelock hairs are quite visible to be a mix of dark grey, light grey and white hairs when they were chestnut only years before. You could not look at him at 7 years of age and know he was a chestnut based grey, he looked like a black based grey. 

You could find lots of pictures of grey horses in the grey process and not be able to tell what their base coat under the grey is. That is the meaning of that last sentence means that their base coat was completely replaced by DARK and WHITE hairs so you don't know what their color under the grey is. Look at the grey progression of the palomino based grey NdAppy posted, see how the grey changed the blonde palomino mane to being very dark?

And by the way, roan doesn't typically do anything with manes and tails.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Here is a grey foal showing off her mature shade of the base color before she got more than a few white hairs around the eyes. The red lighting is due to the sun setting so is messing with her sleek midnight black coat. 








A couple years later (I think about two or three years old here)








Notice the amount of white in the mane/forelock as well as how light she is already getting below her hocks? Her sire was EE aa no grey registered arabian. Her dam was Ee aa Grgr quarab. She actually greyed faster than her dam who stayed nearly black with a scattering of white hairs for the first three years and then decided to start a rapid greying. 

Here is that mare's dam at about 10 years old, she was also midnight black at birth. Her sire was a solid black (Ee aa) registered AQHA and her dam was a grey who had fading black hairs (Ee aa Grgr) and her dam was a nice darker dapple grey at 10 years old when fatally struck by lightning. And then this mare had a bad fall one winter and was found dead in the pasture on a sheet of ice at the age of 20... So I guess her only daughter will live until 30 before some fatal accident?









That is a few pictures I have dug up of blacks that greyed

And here is the son of the quarab grey mare... The younger half brother to the grey mare above their dam. His sire was a heterozygous black bay purebred arabian. Can you guess what his base color under the grey is?








Look at all the dark and light grey hairs all over his body, mane and tail....

He was born chestnut, that 25% chance of a chestnut foal when breeding heterozygous blacks and he won the 50% chance of grey as well 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Okay... Posting again because I found a picture that isn't dated but it between the greying process of the chestnut gelding at 4 and 8 years old.
As a reminder, here he is on the left at 4 years old









And here he is on the right side (his dam is on the left, homozgous grey who finished the greying process by the time she was 5 years old, also chestnut based)








There is no way that you could look at him at this stage and have any idea what his coat color was under the grey. The dark and light hairs make indentifying the color impossible as no one could at this stage be able to say that he was a chestnut based grey. All his natural base colored hairs were replaced with shades of grey (dark, medium, light and white) and he got lighter every year because the number of white hairs steadily increased. 

His little half sister (same dam, different sire) was born a light chestnut with grey indicators. 
Her body quickly lost all red color to shades of grey and her mane/tail took time to lose its color to shades of grey 








Notice the grey coming into her chestnut mane is more than white hairs but also shades of grey (medium and light grey with some being a darker grey color)?

And then the chestnut colors are lost to a variety of grey shades?








Her forelock has only hints of the chestnut base color at only a few years old and everything else was changed to a mixture of dark, medium, light and white hairs. 

The horses that grey rapidly don't have the time to mess around with color changes before finishing the process, they are on a fast track to get maximum white hairs. The typical heterozygous grey takes their merry time and loves to keep you guessing as to when it will finish and how long you can enjoy having dapples.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Interesting that the inside of her ears haven't changed yet. I had never noticed that before with greys.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

QtrBel said:


> Interesting that the inside of her ears haven't changed yet. I had never noticed that before with greys.


Doesn't take a grey gene to create an odd color of interior ear hair :lol:. Black yearling filly:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, I admit that you have more experience with grey horses than I do, as I have never, nor would I, purposely breed for a grey horse, first, because it destroys Appaloosa coat marking, and secondly, the high risk of melanoma
I should have checked out Awarded;s extended pedigree, as his sire is Zippo A Ward, an AQHA grey stallion
That palomino foal, though, was not born grey. The grey started to work on that coat when it was about two, as horse carrying the greying gene is any color except grey at birth.
Interesting topic, but Charlie will be my one and only grey horse. I did breed her once, because her dam lost a breeding by transported semen tot he AQHA pleasure stallion, Dont Skip This Chip, and my vet wanted to used ayounger mare.
Charlie, at age three, was the only App colored bred pleasure mare that I _had, to breed to an AQHA._
This put her own training behind,as a jr horse, unfortunately!
She had a chestnut colt that fortunately did not inherit the greying gene.
Cadence, does have the silver gene. I sold him, and he is still chestnut, with silvering
I won't breed Charlie again, because that 50% chance of a grey is just too big of a gamble!
Yes, I know, most of the melanoma in grey horses is not malignant, but when it is,it can be as aggressive as human malignant melanoma. Even when benign, tumors can form that can block thinks like the intestinal tract
THanks for the info, and I admit you have looked at more aspects of the greying gene then I have, as my main focus has always been that grey is autosomal dominant, destroys the coat color in my breed of choice (Appaloosas ), and has a high risk of melanoma.

So, a question. If the greying gene enjoys rapid expression in presence of the LP complex, and since Awarded carried both, then why did not all of his offspring I saw in the journal have rapid greying, as some still had alot of color , showing under saddle, and why did he keep his spots so long?
Here is Cadence, Charlie's son. Obviously, Dont Skip this Chip , a bay, had a chestnut gene


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Smilie, if you're interested the most up to date information about color genetics can be found on the Equine Tapestry blog.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Well, I admit that you have more experience with grey horses than I do, as I have never, nor would I, purposely breed for a grey horse, first, because it destroys Appaloosa coat marking, and secondly, the high risk of melanoma
> I should have checked out Awarded;s extended pedigree, as his sire is Zippo A Ward, an AQHA grey stallion
> That palomino foal, though, was not born grey. The grey started to work on that coat when it was about two, as horse carrying the greying gene is any color except grey at birth.
> Interesting topic, but Charlie will be my one and only grey horse. I did breed her once, because her dam lost a breeding by transported semen tot he AQHA pleasure stallion, Dont Skip This Chip, and my vet wanted to used ayounger mare.
> ...


The rapid greying is from LP + grey. If only LP is passed but not the grey or vice versa, then you don't have a rapid greying process and appy spots are the last thing to go as they are stubborn lol

Melanomas can occur in any horse regardless of having a grey gene. The greys just have a higher tendency to get them but not all greys will. 

Breeding greys within ApHC is strongly frowned upon as it destroys the color which makes the breed.

Also, silver does not effect chestnut or any red based horse (red roan, palomino, etcetera). Silver visually messes with black coloring on black based horses (blacks, bays, etcetera). NdAppy knows a lot about LP and identifying the appy patterns so she would be able to identify Cadence's coat pattern :lol:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

yes, I know melanoma also occurs in non grey horses, and is then also usually more aggressive. I read one site where over time, grey horses have developed some protective devise that makes melanoma in them less aggressive, most times.
Still, grey has a very significant incident of the occurrence of melanoma, thus I avoid that risk.
The logic of using that other horses can also get melanoma, is sort of like saying you can also get killed in a car crash wearing a seat belt, so why wear one?? Decreased risk is the answer
Sure, I won't mind reading some more on color genetics, but to be honest, color genetics have never interested me near as much as inheritance of genetic defects, although of course, there are color genetics linked with genetic defects, such as LWO and CSNB
I have always bred Appaloosas for ability first, and hoped for color, and not the other way around.
This is the % of risk in grey horses, so while any horse can get melanoma, same as non smokers can get lung cancer, the odds are against both smokers and grey horses!

Every owner of a gray horse lives in fear of melanomas, those characteristic black or brown nodules that so often appear on the skin around and under the tail. Rightly so, for estimates suggest that more than 80% of gray horses over the age of 15 will develop at least one melanoma tumor during its lifetime. T


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Maybe Cadence shows snow flaking. 
I really never cared, as Appaloosa color genetics don't effect me beyond knowing that few spots produce vivid coat contrasts, esp bred to solid horses.
I bred to High Sign Nugget a few times, and all of the foals or course, had his ability as cowhorses and reiners, plus color. The owners have used some high power AQHA mares with him, producing his most colourful offspring, with no roaning
Appaloosa genetics that have haunted me from time to time, is that darn rat tail, often cropping up a generation or so later
I also noticed that the worst expression, often occurred, breeding a mare with some rat tail in her predigree, even when she herself had afull tail, to an outcross with a good tail, like an AQHA
Many of my fellow App breeders noted the same thing.
Thus, I came across a speculation to explain that. What if the space tail is recessive, with an Appaloosa carrying a dominant gene that suppresses the expression of a rat tail, but when bred out to an AQHA, there would be nothing to suppress that genetic trait? 
I have never seen any genetic inheritance of a sparse tail, so would be interested in that info for sure, even though I have quit breeding horses at this time in my life


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Smilie said:


> yes, I know melanoma also occurs in non grey horses, and is then also usually more aggressive. I read one site where over time, grey horses have developed some protective devise that makes melanoma in them less aggressive, most times.
> Still, grey has a very significant incident of the occurrence of melanoma, thus I avoid that risk.
> The logic of using that other horses can also get melanoma, is sort of like saying you can also get killed in a car crash wearing a seat belt, so why wear one?? Decreased risk is the answer
> Sure, I won't mind reading some more on color genetics, but to be honest, color genetics have never interested me near as much as inheritance of genetic defects, although of course, there are color genetics linked with genetic defects, such as LWO and CSNB
> ...


She goes into genetic defects as well, especially the ones tied to color. I love her blog, she has a book published as well. It's very in depth and informative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

I read a study a number of years that found fewer occurrences of melanomas in grey horses with one agouti modifier and even less risk of melanomas in greys with two agouti modifiers. 

None of the grey horses I posted ever had a melanoma (a couple didn't live to the age of 15 like the mare who was struck by lightning and her chestnut based grandson who severely foundered and his coffin bones collapsed). The homozygous grey mare I posted and was in several other pictures passed just over a year ago due to natural causes, at the age of 29 years old. Was sprite and energetic (acted like a 4 year old mentally even if she couldn't get her body to keep up with her brain) until her last two weeks when she suddenly declined. 

I would have no problem buying or breeding another grey. And I would take a grey over a white any day (or any other pink skinned horse like double dilutes or excessive facial white) as melanomas are a possibility but a pink skinned horse has sun burning problems, especially on their noses and around their eyes. 

Some people would never have or breed a horse of any particular coloring as there is something about them that they do not like. Good thing there is a huge selection of horse colors and combinations to keep everyone happy 

I also would not connect greys and melanomas with smoking and cancer. Grey does not cause melanomas but smoking does cause cancer. On a positive note, because of all the hype and fear of greys having melanomas, they are rejected by the meat man


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Maybe Cadence shows snow flaking.
> I really never cared, as Appaloosa color genetics don't effect me beyond knowing that few spots produce vivid coat contrasts, esp bred to solid horses.
> I bred to High Sign Nugget a few times, and all of the foals or course, had his ability as cowhorses and reiners, plus color. The owners have used some high power AQHA mares with him, producing his most colourful offspring, with no roaning
> Appaloosa genetics that have haunted me from time to time, is that darn rat tail, often cropping up a generation or so later
> ...


 That rat tail will always haunt ApHC :lol:
I talked to someone about their appy gelding (was a stallion for a few years) and we talked about his sparse tail. Apparently he had a beautiful full tail until he was about 4 years old and it suddenly fell out and never grew back. It must be genetic somewhere as it seems a common occurrence within the breed, and I don't think I have seen a solid bred appy with a rat tail. I am more amazed when a see an appy (especially if they are older) with a naturally thick full tail to go with their spots. 

My hubby has told me stories he heard about the US Cavalry shooting appy stallions in the wild herds in the Palouse hills and releasing the rankest stallions as well as train wreck conformation stallions into the hills to destroy the speed, agility and durability of the horses so they could catch their riders. Don't know if any of that is true but it would explain a few things about the brains in a certain portion of the appy breed :rofl:


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

My appy gelding HAD a beautiful, long tail....key word being "had". he now has less than half of what it used to be. He's also a conformational train wreck and neurotic with major anxiety. But he's my train wreck, lol. He's so sweet...but he flakes at the weirdest things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

hI again
We all decide what risks we wish to live with,and which we don't!
The greying gene is linked to melanoma, as that pigment is not taken up normally, and thus builds up in the skin. Melanoma arises out of melanocytes
Also, melanoma in horse sis not linked to sun exposure, as human malignant melanoma, and often , occurs in areas with no sun exposure in horses, as under the tail
I do consider smoking a valid comparison, as the risk of getting lung cancer if you smoke, goes up, just like the risk of developing melanoma in horses,goes up if they have the greying gene.. 
We never can eliminate all risks in life, but we can all decide level of risk that we wish to live with. I know of many people that smoked all their life and never got lung cancer, just like your horses have escaped the odds so far, regarding melanoma.
I'm not fond of excessive white, but true albino horses are rare. Most so called white horses are greys or some dilution gene , or maximum expression of a color gene marking, like sabino or few spot
I don't like either a lot of white, including my grey that is now white, for one other reason. I spend twice as much time with Charlie at least, in the wash rack, before shows then I ever had to with my solid chestnut App in my avatar.
At open shows, I only washed her blaze and stockings and was good to go!
Charlie, even double blanketed over night , with lots of shavings, manages to have those yellow stains in the morning , whose elimination , would make sense for me to buy shares in Cowboy Magic!
I never had a problem with sun burning on those blazes.
The sire of many of our horses, including Smilie, is double bred Mighty Bright stallion that we had. "Cody' looked almost like a few spot,but he was not, as he threw about 25% solid offspring. Again, he never sun burned,and his feet were hard and solid, never chipped, even though white
Here is Cody



This is a roan reiner I sold, by the few spot HIgh Sign Nugget and out of a solid black ApHC mare that I had. Two full siblings are leopards, and Cola Neon Sign , has won ApHC world reining and ApHC national jr working cowhorse



True, a good horse is any color< and I have no bias against any color, unless it is linked with some other genetic disease, or is proven to pre dispose the horse to developing something like melanoma (well, I do hate extra time in the wash rack, esp washing a 16.1hh mare! )


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here is a genetic article, and I will post the link tot he title

*Complex Inheritance of Melanoma and Pigmentation of Coat and Skin in Grey Horses*

examination of melanoma tissue revealed copy number variation of the 4.6 kb intron in STX17, with a difference between blood and tumor DNA. The highest copy numbers occurred in tumors classified as aggressive [10]. Grey horses are the only animals to present progressive coat greying, melanoma, vitiligo-like skin depigmentation and coat speckling, making them an excellent model for studying the inheritance of traits with complex genetic background.

The hereditary component of melanoma in Grey horses was first studied by Rieder et al. [20]. Using segregation analysis, they were unable to establish whether the mode of inheritance was monogenic, polygenic or mixed, because of the relatively low number of horses examined (n







71). Nevertheless, models including a polygenic component fitted the data significantly better than did a non-genetic model. In a more recent study involving 296 grey Lipizzan horses, Seltenhammer et al. [21] estimated a heritability of 0.36 for melanoma grade.

Anyway, here is the entire article, so I would dispute that there is no inheritance towards developing melanoma in grey horses
Complex Inheritance of Melanoma and Pigmentation of Coat and Skin in Grey Horses


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

I hear you on washing horses with lots of white 

My sister bred her heterozygous grey mare to a homozgous black for her show horse hoping for a non grey because she hated all the work to keep a grey looking clean, especially their tails. She wanted a filly as well but didn't get that either. She did get her non grey foal, beautiful gelding who makes my sister work hard at keeping him clean with his 3 stockings, 1 partial stocking (sock level in the front and stocking level in the back), blaze and a tail that is mostly white LOL








Sometimes you just can't win when you want easy to clean black based horses

But when they are clean, they are gorgeous 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi Sunny
You have some nice looking horses, and I hope your luck holds, concerning grey and melanoma, and mine also, since I now have Charlie, I love her, even if she is grey!
Yes, the greying gene, although it makes a horse look white, eventually, it is not the same as horses born white, or those with white markings, because the latter don't have that black skin under their white, caused by that skin pigment not being normally metabolized and used, in horses with the greying gene.
I worked in cancer research as a lab tech, and also survived breast cancer, thus cancer is sort of a special interest to me, far as etiology and triggers.
I am still curious about the LP gene,far as rate of greying, so will do some googling.
It makes sense that a horse who is already mainly white, thus having less color to grey, will reach that total white expression sooner than a solid colored horse, but I have to see if that LP actually accelerates the greying process itself
If you have genetic info, I would not mind reading it


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I can find nothing that states the LP gene will cause rapid greying, in the presence of a greying gene. Where did you get that info?
Of course, a few spot will look like it greyed fast, as he only had a few hairs to grey, LOL!
Scientific Articles Used as Reference for Horse Color Genetics | Color Genetics

In horses, graying with age is an autosomal dominant trait associated with a high incidence of melanoma and vitiligo-like depigmentation. Here we show that the Gray phenotype is caused by a 4.6-kb duplication in intron 6 of _STX17_ (syntaxin-17) that constitutes a _cis_-acting regulatory mutation. Both _STX17_ and the neighboring _NR4A3_ gene are overexpressed in melanomas from Gray horses. Gray horses carrying a loss-of-function mutation in _ASIP_ (agouti signaling protein) had a higher incidence of melanoma, implying that increased melanocortin-1 receptor signaling promotes melanoma development in Gray horses. The Gray horse provides a notable example of how humans have cherry-picked mutations with favorable phenotypic effects in domestic animals.

That link goes into various color genetics, and how they are linked to genetic defects.
The LP info says nothing about accelerating the greying process, thus I will assume some people made a faulty observation, using a horse already mostly white, and considering that white as part of the greying process
Charlie is neither heterozygous for grey, nor LP, as she was born chestnut with a blanket, yet greyed very quickly


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If you read this link, is says that the cause of the rate of greying is yet hardly known, far as what drives it, although homozygous grey horses usually grey faster,and they suspect type variations in the greying gene itself
Charlie is not homozygous for grey, so I hope her chances of evading melanoma is good, even though she greyed quickly
You will see that it is not the fact that the horse turns white, under the influence of the greying gene, that associates with a high risk of melanoma, but rather the flawed uptake, and metabolism of the melanin
A genetic mutation occurred way back when, and then people kept breeding for grey
BMC Genomics | Full text | Copy number expansion of the STX17 duplication in melanoma tissue from Grey horses


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Here is info on the LP gene. 
Appaloosa White Spotting

Heterozygous or homozygous does not effect amount of expression and the LP complex is an incomplete dominant. Appy coat patterns are caused by LP. Your mare may have been chestnut with a blanket along with one copy of grey but without the grey, she may have gone through pattern changes associated with the LP which created the blanket. Not uncommon for Appaloosas to change their pattern, especially to start into a varnish roan. The LP + grey for rapid greying is shown by example of the rapid greying of an appy with grey, but there are limited test subjects to this as Appaloosas are strongly discouraged from breeding to greys. Your mare is also an example that even a blanketed appy will experience hyper speed greying without being almost no color to start with.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SunnyDraco said:


> Here is info on the LP gene.
> Appaloosa White Spotting
> 
> Heterozygous or homozygous does not effect amount of expression and the LP complex is an incomplete dominant. Appy coat patterns are caused by LP. Your mare may have been chestnut with a blanket along with one copy of grey but without the grey, she may have gone through pattern changes associated with the LP which created the blanket. Not uncommon for Appaloosas to change their pattern, especially to start into a varnish roan. The LP + grey for rapid greying is shown by example of the rapid greying of an appy with grey, but there are limited test subjects to this as Appaloosas are strongly discouraged from breeding to greys. Your mare is also an example that even a blanketed appy will experience hyper speed greying without being almost no color to start with.


Yes, I'm very familair with both the PATTN and the LP in Appaloosas-after all, I raised them for 30 years! I also am well aware that Appaloosas change coat patterns very often, due to many modifying genes.
For instance, we bout a black Appaloosa colt, with only a small white blanket. Over the years his base coat roaned, and under that solid black coat, were large black spots, so that as a mature horse he looked like a black leopard, and he stayed that way until we had to put him down at age 22.
None the less, that link you gave me and everything else that I have read on the factors that affect the rate of greying, the LP complex is not mentioned as being a factor.
I believe Charlie greyed rapidly, because she was one of the variants in the greying gene, as per some of those links in those scientific studies, that promotes a rapid loss of color
Sorry, but there is nothing out there on the LP complex that suggests or states that it has any action on the greying gene.
Yes an Appaloosa can grey rapidly, and also have the LP complex, but that LP complex is not causing that rapid greying. Nothing suggests that
I realize nay horse can grey rapidly, loud colored or not. My point was, someone might have just visually looked at a few spot, that also had the greying gene, and thought, my God, that horse greyed fast-must be because he has the LP-that is anecdotal thinking, and not scientific fact,


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is some of the studies done both on the PATTN and LP complex
I heard one of the researchers speak. Far as any genetic defect associated with the LP complex, far as I know, it is only CSNB, and I have a few of those!
Since they are born that way, they become very good at functioning without seeing at night, and the only way I found out on one stud that we had, was riding him out on avery tricky trail at night. I soon discovered that he was relying completely on me, far as seeing, and would haev walked off a cliff, if I did not notice that drop off.

The Appaloosa Project: Studies Currently Underway - Appaloosa coat patterns, coat colour genetics and practical information for breeders of spotted horses - The Appaloosa Project


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Yes, I'm very familair with both the PATTN and the LP in Appaloosas-after all, I raised them for 30 years! I also am well aware that Appaloosas change coat patterns very often, due to many modifying genes.
> For instance, we bout a black Appaloosa colt, with only a small white blanket. Over the years his base coat roaned, and under that solid black coat, were large black spots, so that as a mature horse he looked like a black leopard, and he stayed that way until we had to put him down at age 22.
> None the less, that link you gave me and everything else that I have read on the factors that affect the rate of greying, the LP complex is not mentioned as being a factor.
> I believe Charlie greyed rapidly, because she was one of the variants in the greying gene, as per some of those links in those scientific studies, that promotes a rapid loss of color
> ...


Interesting thing about studies is that it is easy to get tunnel vision and focus on one thing and trying to find a source. Studies that try to figure out what causes the speed of greying can also be lost in translation as to what a "normal" speed to grey is. After all, heterozygous greys can finish the grey process by the time they are 10 but can take as long as 20 years. The rapid speed of homozgous greys can have them finish the grey process in 5 years. But a study on what effects the speed of the greying process is focusing on the grey gene as there is such a variation in speed among the average grey horse. Full siblings with one grey parent don't grey at the same speed or in the same fashion. A study on greys is like studying an abyss, it has no bottom and they can only get deeper and more confusing. It is like the same studies that try to figure out the difference between non fading blacks and fading blacks. Some blacks never fade, some blacks fade slightly and some blacks bleach out at the thought of sunlight. They cannot find a genetic difference as they can study horses who eat the same feed, get the same care and sun exposure (can also be blood related) and yet do not react the sun exposure in the same way. 

But a heterozygous grey who finishes the grey process faster than a homozygous grey certainly gets attention. The question is, are studies focusing on the grey gene (most likely) or did they step out of the box and find other common factors? I ask this as I read about how two different research teams approached a fatal problems concerning foals. The foals were full term (usually over the 340 day gestation) but were very small, the fine coat hair of a preemie and not fully developed and/or development problems. Some foals were mildly affected and with help could come around but many were so severe they couldn't be saved with any amount of vet care. There was a pattern of the same herds having problems every year and all were geographically near each other (northeast Washington state and across the boarder into Canada) as well as having a pattern of low numbers in early spring but got progressively more frequent in the later months until the end of the foaling season which had a very high occurrence. A research team at a Washington State college looked into this as did a research team in Canada. The team in Washington looked at what the common plants were that all the horses having these foals were exposed to and the Canadian team looked at all the feed nutrient levels were of the horses having these foals. The research teams came to very different end results. The Canadian team had tunnel vision and insisted that slight nutrient deficiencies caused the problem and that the mare owners just had a do better but they still had problems as the focus was on nutrients and not the full picture. The Washington team found that all the horses with these effected foals had mustard plants either in their pasture and/or in their hay. They recommended that if the pregnant mares had no exposure to a single mustard plant for the last trimester that they would not have a problem. All the herds that had a history of these foals and followed the advice of keeping their mares away from that one plant family for the last trimester never had another case of it. I learned of these studies the day my mom had a mustard foal (she lives in northeast Washington) and was lucky it was a mild case. Her filly only needed assistance standing and laying every 2 hours for the first 48hrs before she could do that task without assistance, had a parrot jaw but wasn't too severe to prevent nursing, had a transfusion for the antibodies she didn't get enough of from nursing and a shot to help with the tendons on her hind legs so she could move and stand with more comfort. She was a month old before she was strong enough to even be allowed into a pasture by vet instructions as it was too much to ask of her weak body. And that was a mild case of mustard, my mom now dry lots her pregnant mares for the last trimester and has not had another mustard foal (she has battled weeds for years in her pasture and this includes mustard plants she has been pulling and burning) and will never be mustard free because a neighbor has a field of it next door that goes unchecked. The Washington research team stepped out of the box and looked at the whole problem as both teams knew it had to be something the mares were eating but the Canadian team looked into just nutrients. The mustard plant is an early spring plant so the mares who foaled in the early spring had very few cases occurring as there was very little exposure. As the spring wore on and mares had longer exposure to the mustard during the last trimester when the most growth and final development occurs, the number of affected foals vs unaffected foals rapidly increased until August when almost every mare with mustard exposure had an affected foal. Their study also found that the mares with mustard exposure who didn't have an affected foal actually didn't eat the weed and that is why they did not have a mustard foal. 

Unless a study on the speed of the grey process compares horses with one grey gene and no LP vs horses with one grey gene and at least one LP, they are not even looking at a possible connection. :wink:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay, I know where our confusion lies.
I am looking completely at the genetic process, far as one gene interacting/affecting another, while you are looking just at that end product- a horse that has turned whites/lost it's color, and contributing all that rapid transformation to white, as being solely due to greying, when in fact, in the case of ahorse with an LP gene, that horse is could also be roaning
That LP roaning gene is not speeding up the expression of the greying gene, per say, but rather acting on it's own, adding white hairs, so that the combined effect has a horse that appears to 'grey' quickly, when in fact that horse is both roaning and greying at the same time.
Of course, studies vary, as I have been in enough studies to know that, and one only has to look at hormone replacement, and how the new study destrpyed the PMU industry, when HRT was shown not only to be a risk for breast cancer, but also heart disease, which at one time, it was touted to prevent heart disease, thus making taking HRT seem a logiCAL RISK for many women with a high risk of heart disease
BUT, in the case of the greying gene, we are not talking of just studies, but gene mapping, so not the same, or you will need to throw all color genetics out the window.
Once a gene is mapped, studies and different theories fall out the window, as in the case of LWO, CID, HERDA, GEBD, and a host of others.They become genetic facts
The LP gene does not act on the greying gene, far as affecting it's rate of expression. HOWEVER, the LP gene can add roaning, acting through it;s own expression, so that a horse has a visual sped up loss of color, but that speed of color loss is not all due to the greying gene, but also to that LP , which carries the roan gene within it's complex
The Greying gene is a single dominant gene, while LP is a complex of genes, with all of the mode of action within that complex, not fully understood. 
If you go tot he other post, on confused about Appaloosa genetics, I posted alinkl that goes into the interaction of both the Leopard complex (which really was mis named, if you read the info, but they decided to keep that term), and how it interacts with the two PATN genetic complexes, that are actually responsible for any spoting


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Unless a study on the speed of the grey process compares horses with one grey gene and no LP vs horses with one grey gene and at least one LP, they are not even looking at a possible connection. :wink:

Answer:
Looking at visual expression, and doing actual gene mapping are not one and the same, as I explained above.
Just looking at a horse that rapidly 'greyed,' (ie, turned white/lost color, who has both the LP and the Greying gene, and just conclude that the LP gene sped up the expression of the greying gene, when no genetic mapping shows that the LP gene can modify the greying gene, and completely discount the fact that the LP gene carries the Appaloosa roaning gene
So yes, that Appaloosa can loose color fast, but it is due to the combined effect of the greying and roaning gene, and not by the LP gene modifying rate of expression of the Greying gene, but both genetics influencing that coat color independantly, for combined visual effect


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Unless a study on the speed of the grey process compares horses with one grey gene and no LP vs horses with one grey gene and at least one LP, they are not even looking at a possible connection. :wink:
> 
> Answer:
> Looking at visual expression, and doing actual gene mapping are not one and the same, as I explained above.
> ...


Which is exactly what was being said before, that grey + LP = fast grey. That is because those two "combine" visually to leave the horse with nothing but white hair on black skin faster than a homozygous grey's ability to finish greying. Studies on grey focus on grey and why there is such a difference between greys. Never said that grey and LP link together but that a horse carrying both loses all color the quickest. 

So a grey with LP that loses color faster than a homozygous grey is just two unrelated genes in the playground with the common goal of replacing color with white  the horse is visually going at hyper speed through the replacement of colored to white hairs. In the end, it is credited to grey as grey is dominant over everything. Any horse with at least one grey gene is called a grey no matter their age, stage in the grey or other genetic coat colors and modifiers. A midnight black newborn foal with the grey indicators is a grey foal because they have the grey gene. A newborn appy with a blanket and grey indicators (because an idiot bred a grey to an appy lol) is not an appy with a blanket but a grey 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i know what the greying gene is, what a dominant gene is , what a recessive gene it.
Bottom line, talking genetics.

Thew LP gene does not affect the rate of expression of the greying gene
Any other genetics thrown into a mix , can have an effect.
Throw in a roaning gene and that gene will cause roaning, however, it is still not controlling or influencing the expression of that greying gene.
I know this is a fine/mote point in your mind, just concentrating on the end result, but it is a huge fact, far as genetics principles.
YOU might as well also postulate that the horse roaned faster because the greying gene affected the rate of roaning, which would also be incorrect

When you say another gene influences the expression of another gene, then that would be like a dilution gene working of chestnut,to create a palomino. That is how one gene affects another gene's expression.
Two genes working at both individually modifying a coat colour, even though the end result won't differentiate those white hairs due to roaning from greying, the fact remains that the roaning gene did not change the rate of expression of the greying gene.
There is a difference, genetically, that you are not grasping!

No, LP + greying gene does not equal faster greying. It equals faster loss of color, replacement of colored hair with none colored hair
NOw, if you want to look at all those hair follicles,a nd see which still retain pigmentation, then you will see how much white hair was due tot he rgeying anfd how much due to roaning, The horse did not grey faster. The horse lost color faster, because it both roaned and greyed


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Look, you are preaching to the choir, far as basic genetic principles
Grey is an automsomal dominant color modifier and NOT a color gene and neither Is the ROan gene
Yes, greys are born any color,except grey, and if the greying gene is present the horse will grey
Roan is also not a color, but a color modifier
The two main coat genetics are red bases and black based. All variations thereof, are due to gene modifiers, either those that take pigment away, like grey and roan, or those that dilute it,, as in dilution genes
That horse is born neither grey nor roan.
Either grey or roan gene will replace pigmented hair with non pigmented hair, , so to say grey dominants another modifying gene, is not genetically proven or valid.
Roan also is a dominant gene, that if present , will be expressed. If anything, they probably are co-dominant color modifiers


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The basic coat colors of chestnut, bay, brown and black horses are controlled by the interaction between two genes: Extension (gene symbol E) and Agouti (gene symbol A). The Extension gene (red factor) controls the production of red and black pigment. Agouti controls the distribution of black pigment either to a points pattern (mane, tail, lower legs, ear rims) or uniformly over the body. The effects of approximately 10 other genes may modify these pigments to provide an array of colors in the domestic horse ranging from white to black.
The basic colors can be diluted by at least five genes: Cream, Champagne, Dun, Pearl and Silver. The Cream gene has a dosage effect in that a single copy of Cream produces palominos, buckskins and smoky blacks. Two doses of Cream produce cremellos, perlinos and smoky creams. Pearl is recessive; two copies of the gene or one copy of Pearl and one of Cream, are needed to see the dilution effect on the coat color. Champagne, Dun and Silver do not show a dosage effect.
There are several genes responsible for white patterns on horses. White spotting patterns on the base coat color are produced by the Dominant White, Appaloosa, Tobiano and Overo genes or as mixed white and colored hair patterns produced by the Grey (progressive whitening with age) and Roan genes. Several genes are involved in the production of white spotting patterns known as overo. Among those, the gene responsible for the frame-overo pattern is associated with a lethal disease of newborn foals called Lethal White Overo foal syndrome.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Info on the varnish roan, associated with the Lp complex

Varnish roan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Look, you are preaching to the choir, far as basic genetic principles
> Grey is an automsomal dominant color modifier and NOT a color gene and neither Is the ROan gene
> Yes, greys are born any color,except grey, and if the greying gene is present the horse will grey
> Roan is also not a color, but a color modifier
> ...


If a horse had both roan and grey, the roan is lost visually as the grey inevitably removes every colored hair the roan did not. Visually, grey is dominant over all coat colors and modifiers. 

If you were selling a horse, even a foal, you advertise them as their adult genetic color. You describe a foal color by what they will be as an adult not what their color was as a foal. While a foal born with the dominant grey modifier is born a mature shade of the genetic base color, that is a color that is visually lost to the greying process. 

This foal is black:









This foal is grey:









If a foal has a coat modifier that is visual, you use that modifier name or other name (or their combination of modifiers i.e. Dunskin, palomino tobiano, etc) to identify their color even as a foal. A chestnut with cream is a palomino from birth, not called a chestnut with a dilution as they are genetically. An appy can become a varnish roan after time as you cannot see an indication as a foal that I know of that is a telltale sign of future roaning. There is a grey indicator on most foals who inherited the grey modifier, correct to call a foal who is at the first stage of the process (already white hairs around the eyes) a grey and not their base color which is visually a very short term color.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, the horse , if it has a greying gene , will be classified as a grey.
That still does not change the fact that the expression of the rate of greying gene is not influenced by that roaning gene-just the rate of time it takes that horse to become white , is a combination of the two genes effect on that base color


While the loss of hair pigmentation is fully dominant, the speed of greying, amount of speckling, incidence of melanomas and presence of vitiligo-like depigmentation show considerable variation among Grey horses. Horses homozygous for the mutation show a more rapid greying process and tend to become whiter than heterozygous Grey horses [2]. Homozygous individuals also show a significantly higher incidence of melanoma and vitiligo, while they almost lack the pigmented speckles present in heterozygous individuals [2]. However, there is still considerable phenotypic variation within the _G/g_ and _G/G_ genotypes both within and across breeds with respect to the manifestation of these traits. For example, some individuals in the Connemara breed carrying the _Grey_ mutation show an extraordinarily slow rate of greying (Figure 1B). These horses show relatively few signs of greying as late as by 15 years of age, and many of them never turn completely grey. The slow rate of greying appears to be inherited within families, although the molecular reason remains unknown. Possible causes could be an alternative allele of _Grey_ in these horses, or genetic variation elsewhere in the genome affecting the penetrance of _Grey_. Quantitative genetic analysis of the speed of greying in the Lipizzaner population (unpublished) indicates that a large genetic component, almost 60 percent of the phenotypic variation as regards how quickly a Grey horse become white (i.e. the speed of greying), is still unexplained. 

This is the science on the greying gene, and rate of expression, which has zero to do at the molecular level of adding another coat modified, like the LP varnish roan. Expreesion of the greying gene, and added white hair modifiers, while they help the total emplacement of colored hairs,have nothing to do t=with the rate of expression of that graying gene. In othe rowrds, you cannot state that the horse appearing white, has all that white hair due to that greying gene, or that another gene sped up the expression of the greying gene.
I can't make it much clearer


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Actually, there are some genes that DO change the speed at which grey is expressed. Silver is fairly well documented to increase the speed of greying. Appaloosa may also, but that might be my brain exploding and making bad links.

And if we want to get really technical, there are 3 base colours, not two. Black, not black (which is red), and black and red together (bay). A good article on this: Bay is not a modifier |


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> Actually, there are some genes that DO change the speed at which grey is expressed. Silver is fairly well documented to increase the speed of greying. Appaloosa may also, but that might be my brain exploding and making bad links.
> 
> And if we want to get really technical, there are 3 base colours, not two. Black, not black (which is red), and black and red together (bay). A good article on this: Bay is not a modifier |


That is a blog
This is the color genetics at Davis University

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorhorse.php

The greying gene is more than the fact that the horse looses pigment in the hair shaft, but an abnormal autosomal dominant genetic defect, that has been traced back to one ancestor , just like hypp mutation was traced back to Impressive, that in the case of the greying gene affects the normal uptake of melanin, thus the high rate of melanoma in grey horses
Thus, any gene that speeds up the rate of greying, have to do more than contribute white or silvering hair-it has to modify the greying gene itself
I have googled many scientific sites, where work has been done on the greying gene, both in establishing it's location, and on rate of expression.
Now, many anecdotal observations and blogs might postulate what effects the rate of not, greying, turning white, BUT the expression of the greying gene itself
The conclusion is, far as I can see, that the rate of expression is somewhat affected by homozygosity, and some variation in the greying gene itself
So, unless you give me some scientific link, that verifies that various other genes actually directly affect the expression of the greying gene itself, I will remain un convinced


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Genetic Testing: The Secret World Of Genes | TheHorse.com

Another link. Seems like bay is still considered a black based horse with a modifier

This is actual research on the greying gene ,a nd rate of expression

While the loss of hair pigmentation is fully dominant, the speed of greying, amount of speckling, incidence of melanomas and presence of vitiligo-like depigmentation show considerable variation among Grey horses. Horses homozygous for the mutation show a more rapid greying process and tend to become whiter than heterozygous Grey horses [2]. Homozygous individuals also show a significantly higher incidence of melanoma and vitiligo, while they almost lack the pigmented speckles present in heterozygous individuals [2]. However, there is still considerable phenotypic variation within the _G/g_ and _G/G_ genotypes both within and across breeds with respect to the manifestation of these traits. For example, some individuals in the Connemara breed carrying the _Grey_ mutation show an extraordinarily slow rate of greying (Figure 1B). These horses show relatively few signs of greying as late as by 15 years of age, and many of them never turn completely grey. The slow rate of greying appears to be inherited within families, although the molecular reason remains unknown. Possible causes could be an alternative allele of _Grey_ in these horses, or genetic variation elsewhere in the genome affecting the penetrance of _Grey_. Quantitative genetic analysis of the speed of greying in the Lipizzaner population (unpublished) indicates that a large genetic component, almost 60 percent of the phenotypic variation as regards how quickly a Grey horse become white (i.e. the speed of greying), is still unexplained.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I can tell you now, in the horse genetics world, Lesli (the author of the Equine Tapestry) is absolutely a reputable source.vShe is at the forefront of genetics research in the equine world, and very involved with the labs and the research happening today and tomorrow. 

There is a loose correlation between homozygousity and the rate of greying. That doesn't make it a rule. Some homozygotes take a really long time to grey, some heterozygotes grey at an extraordinarily fast rate. It's not a hard and fast rule.

As for the link between silver and grey, and that increasing the rate of grey progression, maybe you should do some research on it before you decide to rebut. There are plenty of people who have produced silver + grey foals, who have seen them grey at remarkable rates. It is not some obscure, pulled from the fringes idea, it is pretty well documented. Most foals with silver + grey are often well advanced in the grey process before birth, and often are almost completely white by the time they are yearlings.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Your link to the UC Davis website also doesn't class bay as a modifier, just FYI. 



> The basic coat colors of chestnut, bay, brown and black horses are controlled by the interaction between two genes: Extension (gene symbol E) and Agouti (gene symbol A). The Extension gene (red factor) controls the production of red and black pigment. Agouti controls the distribution of black pigment either to a points pattern (mane, tail, lower legs, ear rims) or uniformly over the body. The effects of approximately 10 other genes may modify these pigments to provide an array of colors in the domestic horse ranging from white to black.


Straight from there. The "basic" colours are separate from the modifiers in that explanation for a reason.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> I can tell you now, in the horse genetics world, Lesli (the author of the Equine Tapestry) is absolutely a reputable source.vShe is at the forefront of genetics research in the equine world, and very involved with the labs and the research happening today and tomorrow.
> 
> There is a loose correlation between homozygousity and the rate of greying. That doesn't make it a rule. Some homozygotes take a really long time to grey, some heterozygotes grey at an extraordinarily fast rate. It's not a hard and fast rule.
> 
> As for the link between silver and grey, and that increasing the rate of grey progression, maybe you should do some research on it before you decide to rebut. There are plenty of people who have produced silver + grey foals, who have seen them grey at remarkable rates. It is not some obscure, pulled from the fringes idea, it is pretty well documented. Most foals with silver + grey are often well advanced in the grey process before birth, and often are almost completely white by the time they are yearlings.


Again, as with the LP gene, the silvering is aiding in the progression of that horse loosing color, but that does not mean it is exerting any effect on the greying gene itself. It is a combined effect, from two genes that cause loss of color
I am not arguing as to how fast they are turning white(de-pigmented), just that the silver gene is working by it;s own genetic rules, and not changing the rate that the greying gene itself is expressed.
That end white horse, looks that way, because of the combined effect of the silver gene and the greying gene, not by the silver gene working on the greying gene., unless you have scientific evidence that suggests otherwise
We are sot of past the time that visual appearance alone defined genetics, and why the AQHA relaxed itès white rule


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There is a loose correlation between homozygousity and the rate of greying. That doesn't make it a rule. Some homozygotes take a really long time to grey, some heterozygotes grey at an extraordinarily fast rate. It's not a hard and fast rule.
Answer:
Never said it was a rule. I said it was one factor that those researchers implicated , as sometimes affecting the rate of the expression of the greying gene , not that all homozygous GG grayed faster, and in fact, there are sub types of the greying gene, that affect rate of greying, if you check the research article 
No time to check the credentials of your source tonight, but will do so tomorrow


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> I can tell you now, in the horse genetics world, Lesli (the author of the Equine Tapestry) is absolutely a reputable source.vShe is at the forefront of genetics research in the equine world, and very involved with the labs and the research happening today and tomorrow.
> 
> There is a loose correlation between homozygousity and the rate of greying. That doesn't make it a rule. Some homozygotes take a really long time to grey, some heterozygotes grey at an extraordinarily fast rate. It's not a hard and fast rule.
> 
> As for the link between silver and grey, and that increasing the rate of grey progression, maybe you should do some research on it before you decide to rebut. There are plenty of people who have produced silver + grey foals, who have seen them grey at remarkable rates. It is not some obscure, pulled from the fringes idea, it is pretty well documented. Most foals with silver + grey are often well advanced in the grey process before birth, and often are almost completely white by the time they are yearlings.


This, is her qualification:

No, I am not a geneticist. Although I am often asked, I do not teach nor am I associated with a university. I am, by profession, a sculptor and colorist working in the equine collectibles industry. Blackberry Lane Press, my publishing company, takes its name from the pottery where I create small-scale figurines of horses.

So, no where near an expert in genetics, nor a scientist!

The second link that I posted, does goes into bay being the result of a modifier, so , far as I know, current genetic principles have not changed, far as the two main base coat colors.
I don't even know why we drifted onto base horse coat colors, talking about a greying gene, which is not basic coat color, but rather a de pigmenting modifier, associated with more that just the visible coat change, but basic metabolism of Melanin, and thus the strong link to melanona. Just like LWO, that greying gene has an implication beyond loss of color
Also, in the part I cut and pasted, on the research work on the greying gene, you will note that the researchers mentioned a few contributing factors that can, not always do, and not all yet understood, that affect the expression rate of the G gene. MOre % or homozygour GG horses grey faster, but that does not make it 100%. There are also subtypes of the greying gene, at the molecular level,. that influence rate of expression.

Now an example of how another gene, be it the slivering gene, or the LP gene can accelerate that visual whiting of the coat, but not by working on the greying gene itself

Say subject A has all the money, and subject G and B are spending it
Together, G and B are depleting A's money, but B is not making G spend more, but rather spending on his own. The end result has A with a total of less money, but the methedology remains of a combined effect, not one making the other spend more
Anyway, genetic knowledge is an on going thing, so I'm willing to adjust my thinking, as soon as any new concepts are put out there by genetic researchers, and that includes accepting three basic horse coat patterns, but hearing it second hand from an artist, versus from a scientific official site , is not it!

The link with basic coat color genetics
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/10550/genetic-testing-the-secret-world-of-genes


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This, from an equine research lab, that has the bay gene being a modifier
Coat Color Descriptions | Brooks Equine Genetics Research Lab
Perhaps, as artist missed the scientific facts, as she has no training in genetics


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Directly from Animal Genetics:



> Base Color
> Every horse has a base color, which can be black, bay, or red. This is controlled by the Extension (Red/Black Factor) and Agouti genes. The Extension gene controls the production of black or red pigment throughout the coat. The allele for black color (E) is dominant over the red allele (e), so a horse only needs one copy of the black allele to appear black-based.
> 
> The Agouti gene can then modify black pigment by pushing it the the points of the horse, creating a bay. The Agouti gene is dominant, so a black pigmented horse only needs one copy of the Agouti gene (A) to appear bay. Agouti does not have any effect on red pigment.
> ...


Animal Genetics

Directly from UC Davis:



> The basic coat colors of chestnut, bay, brown and black horses are controlled by the interaction between two genes: Extension (gene symbol E) and Agouti (gene symbol A). The Extension gene (red factor) controls the production of red and black pigment. Agouti controls the distribution of black pigment either to a points pattern (mane, tail, lower legs, ear rims) or uniformly over the body. The effects of approximately 10 other genes may modify these pigments to provide an array of colors in the domestic horse ranging from white to black.


Horse Coat Color

You may not see Lesli Kathman as being a credible source, but essentially 99.9% of the equine community do. Where do you think she gets her information from? Her articles are not just drawn up from thin air, she speaks with researchers and geneticists.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There is the red and black factor, and then there are the agouti, that determine distribution
Now, if you wish devide the base colors, including the agouti , that doe snot change the fact that thew basic color genetic that divide horses is the red and black factor
Just because someone associates with scientists , does not make them an authority, and why many medical reports get screwed up, as reporters with no medical background,w rite them up
Red Dr Ben Goldarcres book 'Bad Science, on this subject.
Anyway, why are we even onto base horse colors, when discussing the greying gene, which is not even a color gene, but rather a color depigmentor?
I never brought Leslie up.
Lets get back on topic
Yes, the greying gene is autosomal dominant, meaning if present, will be expressed, and is inherited equally by either sex
Correctly, it is classed not as a color gene, but a color modifier, or even more correctly, as a de pigmenting gene
It also is associated with abnormal up take of the melanin, and thus with melanona. 
Researchers as yet have not determined the factors that cause that greying gene to be expressed at a certain rate
If two gene are involved that cuase ahorse to loose color, then , while that horse appears to whiten rapidly, until proven otherwise, that is due because the horse is also roaning or becoming sliver at the same time, and not because the greying gene has been activated to process faster
The greying gene,, was a mutation, that has been bred on, with people even selecting for grey, much like halter people selected hypp positive horses.
Thus, these are the important facts in my mind. Yes, I have one grey horse, due to breeding to a grey stallion by transported semen, not knowing he carried the greying gene. He appeared as a leopard
While there are no guarantees in horse breeding, to purposely breed for a grey horse, is not responsible in my eyes
So, all the base color is of no relevance to this post, as if your horse has the greying gene, he will loose that color
A good horse is any color. 
I have never bred for color first, but as an Appaloosa breeder, find it stupid to breed to known carriers of genetics that will destroy color.
Now, i'm done with this post.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

*snort*

I find it hilarious that you seem to have a fairly solid knowledge of the genetics behind colour, yet you completely dismiss Lesli because you don't feel her qualifications match up with what you would term an expert. Because, you know, she has only lectured alongside Dr Spoonburg, only been considered an authority on the subject for the last 20 ish years. But she doesn't have that degree on her wall, so she must not know anything. I mean, sure, she is the author of the most current, scientifically correct book on horse colour, the current "go to" book for any one seeking to learn more. But she doesn't have a degree on her wall.

Speak to any actual person, not just copy and paste from lab websites, and you will hear resounding recommendations for Lesli and her book, The Equine Tapestry. If you want to discuss the current research and be in touch with others that are also in touch with the current research, there are other forums where that is the goal, and even those people, as much as they know, will still take Lesli as an expert. 

As for grey, the melanomas associated are almost always benign masses. The biggest issue they usually cause is when they grow in areas where a mass can become a blockage - usually the nostrils, genitals or the anus.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Thank you, Chiilaa. You said it much nicer than I would have, lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Every owner of a gray horse lives in fear of melanomas, those characteristic black or brown nodules that so often appear on the skin around and under the tail. Rightly so, for estimates suggest that more than 80% of gray horses over the age of 15 will develop at least one melanoma tumor during its lifetime. T


While many grey horses develop melanomas, I never lived in fear of that when I had a grey mare, since melanomas in horses are nowhere as serious as melanomas in humans. While most greys will develop them with age, most greys will also die of unrelated causes and are as likely to live to a ripe old age as a horse of any other colour. It's the exception rather than the rule for those melanomas to become a huge issue.

My grey Arabian mare developed small melanomas under the tail at age 17, and never needed any kind of interference because of them, nor did they affect her soundness (I rode her until she was 28). In contrast, a family member's chestnut Arabian developed a ring-shaped anal melanoma which (owing to its position) nearly cost him his life, and required some very invasive surgery to remedy. Because of all the hype about greys and melanomas, many readers might be surprised that horses of solid colours also develop melanomas (although not at the same rate).

My grey mare was untroubled by her melanomas and lived to the age of 32, when she was put down due to a pedunculated lipoma - an abdominal fat cell tumour with a stalk on it that can cause problems by wrapping around internal organs, is an unrelated class of tumour, and is relatively common in spectacularly old horses of all colours.

Her age was the record of any horse any of our family ever owned. Most of our horses have died in or before their late 20s.

I personally would not hesitate to acquire another grey. Every horse will die of something, and the "grey horses = melanoma problems" line has been rather overstated around the traps.

I also wanted to just throw in another interesting thing while we're talking about tumours on horses: In the late 1980s we were able to save the life of a 12-year-old gelding with an invasive sarcoma in his tear duct, who had already been operated on conventionally. A peach-sized portion of the fast-growing tumour had been surgically removed but a small amount of material had remained in the tear duct. Recurrence of facial tumour was predicted and happened quickly. The horse was slated for euthanasia, when a family member studying veterinary medicine at the time became interested in the idea of alerting the immune system to the presence of cancer (since cancer happens on the few occasions our immune system fails to recognise the problem and step in - mostly it nips tumours in the bud). Tuberculosis vaccine was injected directly into the tumour when it was nearly apple sized, in order to provoke an unrelated immune reaction. The tumour began to shrink within a week and was undetectable within a month. We tracked the horse for another decade or so, and the tumour did not recur during that time. That was a very interesting case, and very fortunate for the horse.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I've been kind of staying out of this. And I am no genetics expert. However, it's funny that some people won't take the risk of melanoma with a gray horse but love Appaloosas which are highly prone to uveitis and blindness. 

I mean, I LOVE their color, but the predisposition to uveitis would really be a downer for me. So how is that different from someone who likes grays taking chances with them? Why is one okay and one not? Maybe you can say "gray is just a color modifier" but then isn't LP just a modifier of a base color as well? And frame overo, doesn't that modify a base color? Aren't we all playing with color in a way we find "pretty" and certain unwanted traits sometimes come along with that?

Just about every type of horse has a predisposition towards some type of genetic flaw. I personally don't like a lot of the things going on in stock horses (like HYPP and HERDA). I _personally_ wouldn't be breeding horses with those genetics. And yet a lot of people do it. They must feel it is worth it to them. People who breed Paints have to be aware of lethal white or they could loose a foal to that.

Anyway, I love my grays and feel they are worth the risk. I had a 24 yr old gray Arabian die of colic and he never, ever had any external signs of melanoma (and I go over my horses with a fine toothed comb). I have a 21 yr old gray mare now that has two very small ones that I keep an eye on....one the inside of her thigh and one under her tail on her tail bone. That's all I do is keep an eye on them. I think she will die of something else. 

And I have her 5 yr old gray son. I am looking forward to him (hopefully) dappling out. I see his color as a thing of beauty as someone else might see an Appaloosa or Paint or whatever-color-strikes-your-fancy. To me, that's icing on the cake, not something to be avoided. :wink:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Every owner of a gray horse lives in fear of melanomas, those characteristic black or brown nodules that so often appear on the skin around and under the tail. Rightly so, for estimates suggest that more than 80% of gray horses over the age of 15 will develop at least one melanoma tumor during its lifetime. T


That is sort of liking saying:

"Every owner of an Appaloosa lives in fear of ERU, that insidious uveitis that so often appears in the eyes. Rightly so, for estimates suggest that up to 25% of all studied uveitis cases are Appaloosas and they have a more insidious form of ERU than other breeds and are more likely to go blind from it."

_Could_ melanoma come along and kill my horse? Sure, anything is possible. But I worry more about colic, lameness, entroliths, old age, arthritis, a slip in the mud, getting hit lightning, ME getting hurt and not being able to care for them, etc.

I actually owned a non-gray Paint one time that had skin cancer on his penis. He was in his late 20's. I had good luck treating it with blood root. He died of something else too.


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

Pebbles42 said:


> I thought grey was dominant but someone told me it had to be homozygous to have 100% chance... Is that true?



Wow, I read thru a couple of pages of answers and while I think all of them were correct, it got confusing! LOL!

I think what made this a little confusing to follow is that the question is a two part question phrased as a single part question.

She starts out asking if gray is dominant, but then switches to using the term homozygous as if they are interchangeable, and they ARE NOT! So I'm going to take a stab at clarifying, though I don't know how I'll do ....

Yes, gray is dominant which means that if a horse has even just ONE copy of "G" it will go gray. It takes just ONE copy for it to be expressed.

However, to get 100% foals that will turn gray from a particular horse, that horse must be homozygous for gray, meaning it must have two copies (GG).


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

JCnGrace said:


> Sue, you bring up another interesting facet of this conversation. The strength of the gray gene as in how fast it makes a horse gray out.
> 
> I've never had a gray horse but years ago I spent a lot of time hanging out on a quarter horse breeding farm. This was certainly before all the genetic testing that is available today. He had a gray mare that was snow white and during my time there she never had anything but gray foals. He either got lucky with all her foals or she was homozygous, there's no way now to know which. Since he never had a gray stallion all these foals had to be heterozygous for gray but they all grayed out rapidly. He had kept 2 fillies out of this mare so I also got to see a third generation come along. I have a picture of him riding Roman style on these fillies when they were very young, 2 and 3 if I remember correctly, and they were already grayed out to the point of having some dapples and partial gray in their manes & tails. When either of these mares had gray foals, again bred to a stallion of another color, they didn't seem to gray out as fast but still faster than your horse did. He kept a gelding out of one of those mares as his riding horse and that gelding didn't totally gray out until he was around 15.
> 
> So, after all that rattling, your post made me wonder if the gray gene starts losing power as it gets passed from generation to generation. I wonder if there's been studies on that? Hopefully if we have any long time breeders on here that have kept several generations of a gray can chime in with their experiences.


I dug up my copy of the published study that found the gray mutation and it does say that they found evidence that homozygous grays do tend to gray faster than heterozygotes, although they did say the rate can vary greatly from horse to horse.

Homozygotes also showed greater instance of vitaligo, generally whiter at the end stage of the graying, and higher instance of melanoma.

It also states they found that horses with the recessive agouti (aa) had a higher rate of melanoma, though that only applied to horses that were EE or Ee. They were not able to study the effect of agouti in chestnut (ee) horses due to a lack of chestnut grays in that particular study group (Lippizaners).


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I just wanted to add that just from the greys we have seen (most of which were Polish / Crabbet Arabians bred at the stud that was next door to us when I was growing up, and from which I got my mare), the homozygous greys did consistently grey out faster and had a whiter end point than the heterozygous greys - and we could tell with many horses whether they were homozygous or heterozygous from the colours of parents and offspring. (One parent solid colour = heterozygous grey, both parents grey with all-grey ancestors going back a long way in the pedigree and only throwing greys = most probably homozygous grey.) This was the breeder's understanding as well and supported as a working hypothesis by other horse breeders he knew. Of course, the sample size of this anecdotal evidence is still quite limited, and there is a lot of individual variation to boot.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

dunmorgans said:


> However, to get 100% foals that will turn gray from a particular horse, that horse must be homozygous for gray, meaning it must have two copies (GG).


Highly likely, but not inevitable: It can just be pure coincidence, like someone having six girls in a row instead of three girls and three boys. The larger your sample size, the more statistically significant your data. ;-)


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

Wellllll ... technically speaking .... 

It's proven scientifically that to get 100% guarantee of every foal turning gray from any individual horse, it MUST be homozygous. Otherwise, eventually it will produce a non-gray.

Yes, I do get what you're saying  ... which is that if a heterozygous horse were bred only two or three times, for example, you could conceivably get lucky and get grays each of those few times.

However, a truly 100% chance of a gray foal every time does require the horse in question to be homozygous.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Very true, DM.  I was just reminding people that recessive genes sometimes skip quite a few generations just by fluke. If one had a grey mare that had had ten grey foals to a grey stallion, one might have a hunch she might be homozygous, but not necessarily so. If one bred her to a solid coloured horse and she had ten grey foals in a row, statistically she'd be more likely to turn out in reality to be homozygous, but there is still a small chance she could be a heterozygous grey who has passed on her grey gene every time by sheer fluke. But getting just one solid coloured foal would pretty much prove the mare is heterozygous (with a tiny chance that it's a new mutation skewing results). Genetics and statistics therefore have an interesting relationship at the academic level. You can sit there doing probability tests for the chances of something being homozygous or heterozygous based on its offspring, in those murky cases. Or you can do a gene test... 

If your grey has a solid-coloured parent, it can only be a heterozygous grey. If your grey is from two greys, it's not quite so simple, since recessive genes can hide out...

Personally I still think the speed at which horses grey out, and the end point colour, are good clues as to whether you're looking at homozygous greys or not. But...my sample size was less than a thousand... so I am quite prepared to hear contrary evidence if anyone has any.

Anyway, a good horse of any colour is a good horse, so I guess this is just fascinating for its own reasons.


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## dunmorgans (Mar 18, 2015)

Understood, SueC ... I guess I just believe that to avoid confusing people on a topic can already be confusing to those trying to learn, it's best to answer their questions as succinctly as possible and given what is currently known and proven to be true. 

In this case, no need to go into recessive genes and how they can go undetected for generations because that doesn't apply to the gray gene since it's dominant. And there are currently no known mutations of gray that do not result in gray. I just think that is potentially very confusing to those who may be in the process of learning. Not trying to be rude, honestly ... just trying to avoid unnecessary confusion.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I think the best way to avoid confusion is to provide relevant information. 

Understanding the behaviour of recessive genes is always relevant to the question of homozygous versus heterozygous.

And I've taught genetics at secondary and university level, and generally this has resulted in the students learning a lot about genetics, rather than being more confused than at square one! :rofl:

And about mutations: There are always new ones, so things might change. Gene mutations are another very interesting subject...


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

dunmorgans said:


> And there are currently no known mutations of gray that do not result in gray.


I have seen a picture of one horse who inherited a grey gene and I believe they also produced grey foals when crossed with non grey but the individual horse for some reason appeared to look like a non grey (had a small cluster of white hairs near an ear but nothing else and so was thought to be caused by something else like sabino). The horse tested as grey but there was something else going on that prevented the grey gene from doing its normal routine.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

dunmorgans said:


> Understood, SueC ... I guess I just believe that to avoid confusing people on a topic can already be confusing to those trying to learn, it's best to answer their questions as succinctly as possible and given what is currently known and proven to be true.


I've no argument with you there, by the way. It's just that providing incorrect statements also doesn't further the cause of understanding, or clarity, or succinctness. I wouldn't ordinarily revisit this so bluntly, but it's kind of ironic that you've made that statement...

...since it was the incorrect statement you posted that elicited the discussion of recessive gene behaviour... and that was done to _avoid_ confusion amongst people who may be trying to learn a little about genetics here.


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## ctec377 (Feb 14, 2008)

I posted something similar on another thread, but I'll post again. 

I have a varnish roan Appaloosa gelding bred by Rocky Hollow Ranch in Alabama. I got him last year at 7 years old. When I got his original papers, I honestly thought they'd given me the wrong papers by mistake. I had limited experience with roans and no experience with Varish roans. The change is amazing to me.

His pedigree, for background history:

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/chocolate+dream+bar2

His Dam - brown:

http://www.rockyhollowranch.net/EchosCapitolCopy.html

His Sire:

http://www.rockyhollowranch.net/dynosdreamscape.html

The picture on his original papers:










a bit older - I'm guessing close to a 2 year old. The breeder sold him to the folks I bought him from at 3:










Today:


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