# What is going on with my poor horse??



## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

As some of you may have read, I had the vet out for Flash on Monday as he was in a bunch of pain, was lethargic, and had a runny hose. Turns out he had sharp points (even though his teeth were done 5 months ago), a fractured tooth, and a large splinter stuck in his gums from an old cap that had fallen out. The vet fixed him up, and for the past few days, he's been back to his old self. I went to see him after work today, and to my amazement he still had half his hay left (he is usually the first one done his hay). All the other horses had picked their stalls clean, but he didn't seem to want anything to do with it. I let him out to play while I cleaned his stall (it was really cold and rainy today, so they stayed inside) and he was bucking and playing like normal. When I put him back in his stall, he went to his hay, but was literally eating 3 strands of hay at a time, when he normally has his mouth stuffed. He seems to have full range of motion when he eats, and doesn't seem to be in obvious pain. He seems to always need a vet on friday night right after they close lol. I guess I'll have to give the vet a call tomorrow and see if there's anything I can do until Monday. If he goes off his food significantly, then I'll call them right out, but I don't think he needs an emergency call at the moment. 
What is going on with my boy? He's had such a rough year what with the flu, thrush, white line disease, and numerous teeth issues. If he's still off by monday, I think I'll ask for x-rays of his mouth to see if there's any issues we can't see that are bothering him.
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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I think that not eating hay or picking at it three strands at a time probably warrants an emergency call.. Unfortunately.
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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

He ate all his grain tonight (slower than usual though), and was grazing on hay when I put him out for a bit, so am not to worried right now. He doesn't have a temp, gut sounds are normal, and there is no nasal discharge, so I doubt its colic, but do have a friend checking on him a few times through the night just to make sure. If he's not eating his hay normally tomorrow morning, I will call the vet for advice, and if they are not willing to come out during off hours, I'll feed him soaked beat pulp along with hay until monday. I'm thinking he still has an issue with his teeth than went unnoticed.
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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

He could have sores in his mouth that are still hurting.
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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

usandpets said:


> He could have sores in his mouth that are still hurting.
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My thoughts as well.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

The vet checked for sores when she did his teeth on Monday and couldn't find any. I'm thinking its either an infection at the site where she pulled the splinter from, or he has something wrong with the fractured tooth that's not very obvious.
I don't think its anything serious (as in colic, etc), but as he's not eating properly, I want to get it fixed so he doesn't wind up with colic or such. 
The fact that he eats grain and grass (which I meant to say in my previous post by the way, not hay), but not hay, has me thinking there's still something wrong in the mouth area. It he doesn't eat his hay in the morning, I'll be sure to give him some beat pulp to keep that gut moving until the vet can get out. We do have bute on hand, but I won't administer it unless directed by a vet.
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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

I agree with the rest. He may have an abcess or infection. you can run your hands down the sides of his cheeks/face to see if he has any spot that is tender, also check the front teeth and see if he has anything stuck in between. Hope he feels better soon


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

He didn't seem touchy with his face today, but I'll give it a good once over in the morning. I know he has two baby teeth left to come out in the front, so its possible he's losing a cap and its irritating him. Hopefully its something that's easily fixable.
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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

how old is he?


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

He's 4 1\2 .
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## Barrelracer00 (Sep 9, 2012)

Emergency call, sadly.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm heading out to see him in an hour. I didn't get any messages from my friend during the night, so I'm hoping that meant he eventually ate his hay as she was supposed to call me if he didn't. If he's not eating normally this morning, I will call the vets.
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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

The big guy's still slightly off on his hay today, and now has some thick yellow discharge out of the same nostril as last weekend. I called the vet, and she as long as he's eventually eating all his hay, that it was ok to wait until Monday, but that if he does stop eating, or starts to act colicy, to call her right out. She also said to give him a gram of bute to see if its a pain issue, or something else. 
Do you guys think I should pick up some hay cubes and soak them for him to make it easier to eat?
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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

cubes might help. Im concerned he may be sick if he has a discharge. not feeling well at all. make sure he is pooping normal. not too dry. I would soak the cubes. Is he drinking enough? soaking cubes will get some more fluids in him as well.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

He may be sick, but I think its either a sinus infection, or a tooth infection. The vet did remove a large tooth splinter out of his gums on Monday, so I'm thinking it may have gotten infected. He's still drinking normally, and his poo looks good (quantity and quality wise). The extra water from the soaked cubes will keep his gut nice and hydrated though. The vet was a touch concerned about colic as she said he may not be chewing his food properly, but I'm keeping a close eye on him.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Was the fractured tooth pulled? Where was it located? Top or bottom? If he has an infection with a tooth that is on top by the nasal cavities it can cause an infection which could produce the drainage. Yellow means bad gunk but usually green is infection although yellow could still mean infection.

What is his temp? If it is high I would get the vet right out. Does he have wolf teeth? It is the right age for them to need to be pulled.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

She didn't pull the fractured tooth, but did file down the sharp points on it. She said they usually don't do too much with fractures. I didn't see exactly where the issues were, as I had to hold his head for the vet, but she did say the fracture and splinter was on the left side, and his nasal discharge is comming from the right nostril...
His doesn't have a fever, and is acting normal energy wise. Its just the hay, and nasal discharge at the moment.
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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Definitely soak alfalfa cubes and see if he can get that down him. If so, it's gotta be mouth pain.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

i would guess that he has an infection from his dental problems, also horses have a gutteral pouch which can get infected, and with normal grazing, these can drain and over time clear themselves up, and they Produce tons of snot.
If you can get hay pellets instead of cubes, they soak into a mash easier. this way if his mouth is still sore, he can slurp it up. Dont leave soaked feed for more than one hour. You could also try some karo syrup on the mash to encourage eating !. I sometimes just drizzle some on the hay for my picky old horses to encourage them to eat all the hay and not just pick out the leaf.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I couldn't find any pellets, so soaked some hay cubes for him, but he didn't seem the least bit interested in them (I did manage to hand feed him a few handfuls, but that's it). After I left his stall, he dumped out the soaked hay and pooped on it! What a little ******!
He was slowely picking at his flake of unsoaked hay when I left, but didn't seem to enthusiastic.
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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Will infections show up on x-rays? I was debating asking the vet to take a few shots of his teeth to see if there is anything that's not visible to the eye. I wish the vet would have come out today, but the one's in this area only usually come out after hours for serious issues (colic, lacerations, etc. ).
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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Vets comming out this afternoon. The bute seems to have helped a bit, but he's now in obvious pain and quite unpredictable at the moment. He tried to take a chunk out of my arm last night (after his bute ran out). 
Hopefully the vet can find the problem right away.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

X-rays should show infection if he has one in his tooth area. Or at least I know the human dentist can see infection on the x-rays. I'm wondering why a fractored tooth was not removed? They remove them in humans and dogs.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

They do also remove them in horses. Or at lest the vets I use do.
I had a mare with a fractured tooth, she was not off her feed or anything and had just had her teeth done. We didn't notice until she had discharge in one nostril. How does it smell? If it smells like rotting bone then the prognosis is likely not good. My mare got a bone infection and had to have multiple surgeries to remove dead tissue from the sinus and the surrounding bone. In hindsight, we should have put her down, and she was far less symptomatic than your gelding.
Good luck! I hope you can get some answers 
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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

Generally speaking if a horse has had a fractured tooth antibiotics are usually called for as there usually is some sort of infection going on as well.......4 to 6 weeks is standard treatment for a gum/tooth infection.

I personally wouldn't be waiting to get your horse started on antibiotics.
I would be concerned about the damage the infection could do if left untreated.

Super Nova


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm not sure why they didn't remove the tooth, but I will speak to the vet about it tonight. I hope its something easily fixable. His nasal discharge is off and on, but doesn't smell bad or anything (just yellow and goopy). 
I'm a bit nervous on what the vet will find, and hope its nothing serious. 
Is removing the fractured tooth a minor procedure, or do they need to go to a clinic to have it done?
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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

gothicangel69 said:


> I'm not sure why they didn't remove the tooth, but I will speak to the vet about it tonight. I hope its something easily fixable. His nasal discharge is off and on, but doesn't smell bad or anything (just yellow and goopy).
> I'm a bit nervous on what the vet will find, and hope its nothing serious.
> Is removing the fractured tooth a minor procedure, or do they need to go to a clinic to have it done?
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It would depend on where the tooth is located.......where I live removing a molar in the back is at least a $1000.00

Super Nova


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh crap. I hope that's not the case. I've all but depleted my emergency funds account in the past few months treating his flu and teeth issues and haven't had the time to replenish it yet. If it is a costly procedure, hopefully the vets will do a payment plan, but he does have a limit of 1000 per procedure that I set when I bought him, so if its over that amount, I may have a difficult decision to make. I love my boy, but won't go bankrupt for him.
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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

You should be able to manage it on antibiotics until you can round up the money.

Super Nova


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

So the vet just left. 
She said she can't find any reason why he would be off his feed. She checked his mouth out, and said the cut from the splinter healed up nicely. She took some bloodwork to see if his white blood count is elevated, and he has to go to the clinic for x-rays of his teeth and sinuses. He's on bute for the next few days until I can get someone to trailer him in. She said his sinuses sound clear, and none of his teeth are loose nor are his gums inflamed.
She said if the x-rays come back clean, we can try a round of antibiotics to see if it helps. 
I was really hoping for a solid answer  
He's on soaked hay cubes and grain only until we figure out what the problem is. 
When I feed him the hay cubes, so I give him the equivalent weight of his hay flakes, or is the measurement different?
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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

So the bloodwork came back normal. His white blood cell count was slightly lower than normal, but the vet said not to worry about it, and that its most likely that his normal cell level is a bit low. 
So, still no idea what is causing the problems... We'll try to get him in for x-rays next week, and go from there.
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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

You said he has had the flu? A viral infection (like the flu) can temporarily decrease white count, so no, it's actually not likely his levels are "just normally low". Unless he has some weird autoimmune disorder (highly unlikely), the low white count can likely be associated with him just having recovered from an illness.
The other possible explanation for the low white count is that he has such a bad infection somewhere that it's using up his white blood cells faster than he is producing them. Either way the horse's white count should be re measured to ensure that it is going up and not down.

I think the most likely explanation is that his white count was lowered by the flu, allowing an infection to begin more easily and the easiest route is stemming from the cracked tooth. I hope the x-rays show something and that the infection is manageable with antibiotics and nothing needs to be removed surgically.

Good luck!


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

I agree with Anebel.

My mare when the vet pulled blood work for some issues going on her white cell count was very low but she had bronchitis, which is an infection. Her red cell count was also low, they go hand in hand.

So just because her white cell count is low now does not mean there is no infection.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks for the information. I'll have them draw more blood when I take him in next week for x-rays (unless I can get a trailer sooner) to see if they're going up or down. I hate not knowing what's causing him pain, and worry that its something really bad. He's absolutely miserable and I hate it. The poor guy's had such a rough year so far, and so has my pocketbook. The vet bills alone for this month are already at over 800 (counting next weeks x-rays). I don't know how much more I can afford. How much do you spend on trying to diagnose something before you say enough is enough? I will not leave him in pain for weeks and weeks trying to find out what the problem is. 
If the x-rays come back negative, the vet wants to try a course of antibiotics, then run a scope for ulcers (which is highly expensive as the only one in the area is a 6 hour trip away). 
What would you guys do in my situation? I make a decent salary, and can afford to go into a bit of debt for a few months, but am not willing to go bankrupt, and need to draw a line somewhere now, or else I'll just keep throwing money away until I'm broke. My emergency fund is almost depleted, and I can't dip much more than 200 a month into my earnings.
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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I don't know for your specific situation. For me, my horse is valuable, he does high level competition and I would like to keep him around. So I go into debt for things. But his routine vet work is regularly around a few thousand a year, so to do diagnostics I'll spend a few thousand and more, and just take on the debt load (I tell myself it's to increase my credit score and I feel better hahaha).
IMO you don't have to scope for ulcers as a strict rule. Ulcer meds aren't going to do anything very bad, and if you see results from them it can be gleaned that is what the issue is. However if they don't work then it's an expensive waste of time. So it's up to you on what you want to do there. As well, feed and management changes can a lot of times reduce the severity of very mild ulcers without medication (ie increased turnout, constant forage, calcium in his feed, etc..).
Personally, I'd do the x-rays and go from there. And always think critically about what the vet is telling you. If anything is fishy, don't hesitate to get a second opinion. I'm betting there is something going on in that head of his. I know what sinus pressure is like and it's a lot of fun migraines and pain when eating.

Good luck!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I think its in the head somewhere as well. He's usually very good at telling me exactly where it hurts, and he's telling me its his head (not his gut), so I highly doubt its ulcers. I'm hoping that something will show up on the radiographs.
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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

I hope you get the opportunity to get xrays. I had a horse with an infection, he had gotten something down under his tooth, the only way I knew was a large lump on his jaw that was hard and very tender to the touch. First vet didnt have a clue what it was, thought some type of cancerous groth. X-rays were the only way to tell what was going on. For the x-rays before, then medication for 8 weeks, then x-rays after, the treatment cost $1000. Best wishes to you and your horse!!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I plan to get the x-rays done as soon as possible, and go from there. I will make a decision on what to do when I get the results back. I'm so stressed out right now, and am worried for my boy.
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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

Awww, we all know how that feels, to feel helpless. But you are doing all you can, hang in there, you will get some answers soon.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I really hope so. It's a bit upsetting that some of the other boarders think I'm throwing my money away. They said that since he eats his food eventually, that he's fine, but I know my horse, and something is causing him pain (whether he's eventually eating his food or not). That boy will eat whether it hurts or not, so the fact that he is slower than normal tells me something is really bugging him. Not to mention that every time you touch the right side of his face, he jerks it away or tilts it off to the side. The bute seems to be helping a lot though.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

I forgot but does he have a fever? I hope you find what is causing this.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

No fever whatsoever. His lungs and sinuses are clear. He gets yellow discharge from his nose which is off and on, but only out of the nostril on the side that hurts.
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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

Im surprised the vet didnt start your horse on a good round of antibiotics. But, in case this does turn out to be an infection. I took my horse to a local clinic for xrays where he was diagnosed, they wanted to put him on medication for 2 weeks. I emailed the xrays to an equine specialty hospital who had my horse as a patient months back for tie back surgery. (he is a walking pooping vet bill!!! LOL) The vet from the specialty hospital immediately called the local vet clinic and told them very nicely the horse would not go on meds for 2 weeks but for 8 weeks!!! From my understanding all infections and especially in the mouth must be treated extremely aggressively. Sooo...8 weeks it was. Oh and the local clinic wanted to put him on pennicillian, other vet said no. He was put on 2 other drugs. FYI - apple butter works great as a mixer in a syringe! Needless to say, my horse is perfectly fine now. It was a long 8 weeks but Im so happy we got it taken care of. So dont listen to anyone who says you are wasting your money. Continue to do what you have to do to help your horse!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm sorry you're going through this.
You don't know anyone who could haul for you? Maybe your vet knows someone who would do it.
Please don't listen to anyone telling you how to spend YOUR money.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you all for the support. I'm getting 'he's fine' from some of the boarders, to 'put him down' from everyone at work and my family. Its hurting my brain .
I'm trying to find someone to trailer him, but so far everyone I've found is crazy expensive, and I'm trying to find as cheap as possible as his vet bills are already very high. 
One of the boarders (my friend) wanted to have a fund-raiser to help me out. I almost cried when she told me that as I'm becoming overwhelmed just thinking about all these bills. 
Should I put him on antibiotics first, then if that doesn't work try the x-rays, or should I wait to see what the x-rays show first? I'm also going to get a copy of his bloodwork results just in case I need to get a second opinion.
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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

If it were my horse I would want the antibiotics ASAP. If there is a problem that will show up on X-rays that will still be there but an infection just keeps getting worse & many times if surgery is required they hold off until any infection is under control.
I understand about vet bills. My vet has been out about 15 times in the last month. He was last here yesterday & will be out again tomorrow. It is what it is.


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

So how do you know the sinuses are clear? I'm wondering how a vet knows without x-rays. I went through multiply MRI's and CAT scans until they found my sinus infection that was hiding in the far back sinuses. There were no syptoms for me. Then as the years went on I got infections so severe it eventually took 6 months with 7 rounds of antibiotics and prednizone to clear it up. I was in the consultation room for sinus surgery before they decided to look for allergies.

So I'm telling you all this because, although I am human not horse, sometimes it is a simple solution. allergies can cause sinus drainage then if the broken or damaged tooth is by the sinuses that drainage can cause infection. But infection usually comes with a fever but not always. 

Now that side of his face that hurts can be caused by sinus pressure. The sinuses don't have to be blocked to have pressure. 

I worry about those blood tests. A horse should never be "normally" low. If they are they should be supplemented by something to bring that up. Red Cell did wonders for my horse. When the red cell count goes up the white cell count should follow. Now being anemic could explain the unwillingness to eat, it also makes it harder to fight off infection.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

The vet tapped all over his face, while listening with a stethoscope, and said they sounded clear. I just took her word for it as I'm not a vet and have no clue about all this stuff. When she called me about the blood results, she said that some horse's have normal wbc levels which are outside the normal range, but I'm not sure why she's convinced its not a problem since we have no base line bloodwork to go off of. She also said that the intermittent nasal discharge could be a pain reaction, but I don't know if I buy that either. I'm going to talk to my BO about everything tonight (last night was just too hectic to go over everything with her, but I did tell the person who was feeding the horse's today so she would know the scoop). The BO seemed a touch cranky that I didn't inform her right away, which I understand, so I'll smooth everything over with her tonight. She has a trailer and may be able to help me out at a reasonable fee (however she's always extremely busy, so I'm not sure). 
I'll mention the wbc concerns to the vet and see what she says.
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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Yes that method works for if the sinuses are completely plugged but not if there is just inflamation in the sinuses. Human doctors do the same thing. Inflammation in the sinuses can be extremely painful. I know, I've been dealing with it for 10 years now.

I don't buy that white cell counts can just be below normal and still normal. There's a shot that can be given to raise the white cell counts almost immediately. since he has just gotten over the flu I would think that his cell counts would be below normal from his body being drained fighting off the infection.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I was speaking with the BO, and we went over all his symptoms and my current financial situations. She offered some great advice, and was very helpful. After discussing everything with her, I've decided to opt out of the x-rays, and ask to vet to try antibiotics and something to raise his white blood cell count. Even if I got the x-rays, I cannot afford surgery or any invasive procedure. My BO said she wouldn't trust the local vet clinic for any type of invasive procedure (and I believe her as she's had a ton of experience dealing with them). She said the closest vet that she would trust is the college (which is over 6 hrs away). So I'm going to try the antibiotics for a month. If there is no improvement, or he goes downhill, I've decided to put the poor guy down. 
We both teared up a bit when we were talking about it, but I feel much better having a clear, thought out plan. This would max my vet bills out to around 1000- which is my limit. I cannot go any higher without jeopardizing my financial situation. 
I really hope the antibiotics will work. He seems to be eating normally at the moment, but then again he's getting a bunch of bute (even so he's still very cranky).
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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I think your BO knows what she's talking about and given your situation is probably the best course of treatment. If the infection was caused by the cracked tooth, I would also want the tooth removed unless the vet is sure it will not cause reinfection. As well it would allow a place to drain.

Good luck! I have my fingers crossed for your boy 
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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you. It was a hard decision, but unfortunately I think its the best route to go as well. I am trying to stay hopeful and optimistic that the antibiotics will work, and that its just a sinus infection. Whatever it is, I don't think its related to the broken tooth as that's on the other side of his face. Does anyone know what the best type of antibiotic to use would be? I'm sure the vet will prescribe antibiotics, but if this is his last chance, I want to go with something strong and effective.
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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

If here is any drainage see if you can get it cultured. That could tell you & the vet the most effective antibiotic to use. I wish you the best.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you for the well wishes. I'm waiting for the vet to call me back and discuss details, and for the current total amount and blood results to be sent to me. I want to get all the information I can so I can make the best decision possible (both for me, and my boy). It sucks not having infinite funds, and is an awful feeling considering putting an animal down for financial reasons. I went through this years ago with my cat. We spent 8000 in one year on him, and still ended up having to put him down because he needed surgery which would have cost us another 5000 with a 60% chance of success. I just finished paying off that dept two years ago, and told myself I would never do it again. 
I'll discuss getting a culture done, and how much the antibiotic treatment will cost, and what she believes the probability of success is. Once I have this information, I'll be able to make a decision- one way or another. 
I'm getting so run down lately dealing with all his health issues. Everyday I have to mix all his supplements and get them set up for the person feeding the horses, set up his hay cubes for the next 24hrs, give him his medication, soak his feet for at least 30 min, then do the usual stall mucking and paddock cleaning. I havn't been able to do any training or riding in months as he's either sick, or I'm too busy looking after his health issues. I don't mind not being able to ride, it sucks but its the mature of the beast sometimes, I'm just a little down about everything at the moment, completely exhausted, and needed to get it all off my chest.
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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

This is what my horse was on for an infection under the tooth
Doxycycline – 100 mg tabs - 30 tabs twice a day 
Metronidazole – 500 mg tabs – 20 tabs 3 times per day 
Im sure he took the Doxy for a total of 8 weeks, cant remember how long he was on the Metro, I think that might have been only 2 weeks. Of course, Im no vet, just sharing what my horse received for what he had. I do remember the vet saying that smz's or gosh, what is the powder version called, it will eventually come to me. I cant remember now, anyways, those antibiotics would not work for his infection.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you all for the lovely support and advice. I was speaking with the vet today, and she will not prescribe antibiotics as she is convinced there is no infection . He now was thick goopy discharge out of the one nostril, is still in pain even though he's getting 4 grams of bute a day, and now he's refusing to use his right side when chewing. 
I've decided to put the poor guy down. He's miserable, and I can't keep him in pain while I try things that 'might work'. I'm pretty convinced its a tooth issue, and by I way he's acting, I doubt antibiotics would clear it up, even if the vet would give them to me. 
I'll give the vets a call tomorrow and ask them to come out and put the poor guy out of pain.
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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

Didnt you say he's only 4 1/2 ???


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

It's so sad to hear that you are going through all of this......yes, infinite funds would be a nice thing wouldn't it? After viewing lots of posts about horse health and conditions that horses get etc etc I just hope to avoid any situations which put me in your position and I feel for you:-(

Let us know what happens, and best of luck💐


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Yes, he's only 4 1\2, which makes the decision all the more painful. I had hoped to have him around for at least another 25 years and the fact that I won't is killing me inside. 
My poor guys not happy at all. He keeps looking at me and asking me to make the pain go away, and this is the only way I know that will work. It breaks my heart.
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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm so sorry it has gone so far.
Why not call the vet school & ask them for help? They may be willing to see an unusual case at a discount. The worse they could say is no. 

I don't know you live but there has to be some sort of Veterinary Board that I would be reporting your vet to as she should have tried somethig.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

She's absolutely convinced its not an infection. I've learned to read my horse very well, and he's telling me its his teeth on the right side. He's pretty good at telling you exactly where it hurts (as he's done this a few different times about other issues). It makes it really easy to find out where the problem is coming from. After seeing him today, its very obvious that its a tooth, and I can't afford to get the treatment. There is only so much the vet can do unfortunately. Antibiotics alone won't fix his tooth permanently- just maybe told it off for a bit, and who knows if he'll still be in pain while he's on them. If the bute was working, I'd be more willing to play the wait and see, but its not and he's hurting. 
Unfortunately, the vet college is over 6 hours away. Even if I could get it for a discount, I couldn't afford the trailer fees, and board fees while he's up there. Not paying for any vet fees, I'm still looking at almost $1000. Its a wonderful idea, but unfortunately not an option. 
I'm also worried that if I do try a bunch of things and it doesn't work, I'll have no money left to put him down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I've literally thought of all my options, and cannot find a happy solution. Putting myself in a bunch of dept certainly won't help him any, as then I won't be able to afford his basic care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm so sorry you're in this situation. Tooth extraction in a horse is complicated.
Last ditch effort, maybe a facebook plea for donations? Family, friends? It could add up.
I'm not saying putting him down is wrong. I just want you to know you did all you could so you'll have few regrets.

Your BO couldn't haul him for you?


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## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

I wonder do you have him in a stall? 
He could be getting depressed and thats why he is not eating as much, I try would turning him out, if he is stalled, and then see how his behavior is after a couple days.


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

I read in your other thread about your decision. But, I have one more idea. 

Can you call the vet school and see if you could donate him? You would be surrendering him to them, but maybe they would do whatever was needed for free and then adopt him out when he was better. This would give the students a great opportunity and give him another chance. I would be definitely worth a phone call.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

He is turned out during the day, and brought it at night (same routine as usual). I'm reluctant to surrender him to anyone as yes, he may get the procedure done, but where would he wind up afterwards? He's been passed around so much already during his short life, gone through auctions, been lame for a year,and been starved- is it fair to him to possibly put him through all that again? He's an unbroke 4 year old who needs an experienced handler. His ground manner are great, but recede quickly without proper handling. I really doubt an experienced person would take him when the horse economy is so bad. I would love to be able to donate him to someone, they get the surgery done, then he lives a long and happy life with a good owner, but unfortunately that's not likely to happen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ChingazMyBoy (Apr 16, 2009)

gothicangel69 said:


> He is turned out during the day, and brought it at night (same routine as usual). I'm reluctant to surrender him to anyone as yes, he may get the procedure done, but where would he wind up afterwards? He's been passed around so much already during his short life, gone through auctions, been lame for a year,and been starved- is it fair to him to possibly put him through all that again? He's an unbroke 4 year old who needs an experienced handler. His ground manner are great, but recede quickly without proper handling. I really doubt an experienced person would take him when the horse economy is so bad. I would love to be able to donate him to someone, they get the surgery done, then he lives a long and happy life with a good owner, but unfortunately that's not likely to happen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You can only ring up and find out. What's the harm in making the phone call?


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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

When I dealt with my horses infection and the vet told me they were not going to pull the tooth, I was horrified. I thought that was the "only way" to heal my horse. It was explained to me that tooth extraction is the last thing they try as it can break bones. So although I know you believe thats the only thing that can save your horse, antibiotics could do it. I did not believe for one minute that a couple of months of antibiotics was going to cure my horse, the lump on his jaw was bigger than a golf ball and so painful. I thought he was a gonner. Well, its been a year and he is happy and healthy. Antibiotics can be expensive but more in the few hundred dollar range than thousands with an extraction. 
I feel for you that you are going through this, all very tough. You may have a chance with meds. And I would definately call another vet for a second opinion because you truly dont know whats wrong with your horse and if you put him down now without knowing, wont you always wonder?


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Yes I would always get a second opinion (or third) when thinking about euthanizing any of my animals no matter what the circumstance!


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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

Another thing I would like to mention again, my vet who I have used for 12 years looked at my horse and said "I dont have a clue what is wrong with him, probably a cancerous growth, just let it go and see what happens". Well if I would have let it go, he would have died from the infection. Thats when I took him to another vet. I still use my vet and I do trust him but that does not mean I wont get a second opinion when I feel my horse needs that. Vets are only human, they can and do make mistakes. That was the second time within one year, same horse same vet that I went for another opinion and I guarantee if I hadnt my horse would not be with me now. And I do tell my vet this is what Im doing and although I think it bothers him a bit it still doesnt stop me. I like my vet but if he ever quit me because I did what I had to do to save my horse, well so be it.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Yes, I agree with the above posts. If your vet doesn't know, find one that does. This vet isn't even trying!
This horse can't be the only who has had a fractured tooth. I doubt the fracture extends the whole depth of the tooth. Maybe it could be stabalized with cement or something as the tooth grows out?

OP, if you don't mnd saying, where are you located?


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Its not the fractured tooth that is causing the problems as its on the other side of his mouth. There are no obvious signs as to what it is besides the mouth pain, nasal discharge, and inability to eat with his right side. Everything looks fine from inside his mouth. I could get another opinion, but there is only one other vet in the area I would trust with horses, and they charge a $200 fee just to walk in the barn (as they are 2hr away). I just don't have the money. I was willing to try antibiotics, but the vet doesn't want to give them out and I cannot get them from another vet without paying for another consultation, sedation, and exam (already asked). 
You have all provided great advice. I would love to get second opinions, and try a bunch of treatments, but unfortunately I just cannot afford it. I've tried asking friends and family for donations, but all they say is to just put him down. 
If he wasn't going downhill so fast, nor in so much pain, I would just make him wait until I got the money together, but its not fair to him leaving him in that kind of pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Sorry, I missed the bad tooth location.
He could have a guttural pouch infection, a fractured jaw, infection, something stuck or who knows what.
If he's suffering & your hands are tied then please let him go but sometimes going into a little debt is worth it in the long run. Only you can answer that.

I hope you are at peace with any decision you make. Good luck to you.
Please PM me if you have good news as I have to avoid this thread for now on because I am an emotional wimp. No disrespect towards you as I know you're in a terrible situation.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

You have all been very helpful so far and I appreciate it. After doing a ton of research (as my vet sucks), reading these threads, and speaking to a VERY good friend, we have come up with a plan. I'm going to call the vet and demand antibiotics. If she won't give them to me, I'll have his results forwarded to another clinic and demand THEY give me antibiotics. We are also going to set up a fundraiser page as a bunch of her friends have offered to throw in a few bucks to help out. We'll give it one week. If he keeps getting worse, or we don't have the funds for more treatment, then we will have him kindly put to sleep. I really hope this works as I don't want to lose my boy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Good plan Gothicangel. I wish you every success.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Wishing you the best of luck. It's so hard not knowing what to do-as a new horse owner, I often find my self deferring to the expertise of the vets and farriers, even if their advice sometimes just doesn't feel right. It's admirable that you're going to be aggressive in getting what you need for your horse. I am pulling for you both!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you. I'm hoping for the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

I think explaining to your current vet that you are either going to get antibiotics or have him PTS. I don't think a new vet isn't going to prescribe antibiotics without seeing him first even if you do send blood work. Vets who haven't worked with you are not likely to give any sort of special treatment. 

Honestly, I would give your vet full disclosure. If I can't get antibiotics from you, I am going to send blood work and his file for a second opinion and have them call you if they disagree with your treatment plan. 

It's not a threat or a demand, it's a statement that you are at the end of your rope and don't know what else to do. It's pretty sad that you are going to have to beg for antibiotics as a last resort. Maybe I missed it, but why does your vet not want to give him antibiotics? Just to not be prescribing them willy nilly?

Good luck!


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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

Im excited for you!!!! Best Wishes!!!!!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

She doesn't want to give them out because she said that since the white blood count wasn't high, there is no infection- which is bologna!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

In the future I would not use this vet. Like I said before my horse had bronchitis with a very low white cell count.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh wow just read this thread. I hope you can get antibiotics. I am already in tears just reading your story. I wish you and flash the best of luck!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I will definitely not be using this vet again. I am not impressed in the least. She is supposed to call me back first thing in the morning to discuss getting antibiotics. I don't know why she's so convinced its not an infection. My poor guys still in a lot of pain. Can I safely raise his dose of bute? He's on 4g a day at the moment, and its not working. I want him to at least be comfortable if we're going to give him another week and I don't want him getting an impaction colic from not being able to eat properly. Is there another type of pain med that will work better? I'm really hoping I can raise enough money to get his x-rays. I have a tiny sliver of hope left.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

If you can get your hands on some Banamine you might have more luck with pain relief with it than Bute. No it is not safe to give more than 4g of Bute a day. With the Banamine, it should be given orally, just like the bute, with the same dosage as injectable. Your vet can give it IV as well, but never administer Banamine IM!!

Good luck and I really hope you are able to get a good second opinion on your horse's health and get him some antibiotics!!!


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Crossing my fingers for your boy, I hope you can figure something out!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

We got almost 100 bucks together already! The vet should be calling soon, and we'll discuss antibiotics, different pain meds, and x-rays. Hoping for the best!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Yay! Sending good thoughts and jingles for you and your boy!


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Please keep us posted


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## TexasAndi (Mar 3, 2012)

I am so happy that you are hanging in there with your boy!!! I have been following along and hoped that your story could have a happy ending. He is far too young to give up on if you don't have to. I hope the vet complies with your request. I agree that you might need a different vet. Mine has always been so helpful and forthcoming with meds when requested. Prayers going out to you both!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## laturcotte (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm confused. Your vet won't give you antibiotics but will give you all the pain meds you need? Guessing is this the same vet that will put your horse down but won't give him antiobiotics? That vet needs to go, now. When yellow goop is being discharged from anywhere, not knowing anything, I'd say, maybe just maybe there maybe an infection. My guess would be give antibiotics just maybe it will help. Seems she doesnt like to be second guessed. So sorry for you and your horse. Sometimes the medical profession needs to listen to their patients. Good luck, let us know what happens.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

The vet still hasn't called me back. I've left three messages so far over the past day. I'm starting to get very frustrated with her. I've been told by a few people that she's a great vet, but I'm out $600 already, and have no answers nor am I getting the help that's to my satisfaction. If she doesn't call back today, I'm going to call another vet. I'd still need to go to this clinic for x-rays, but would then have them sent to the other vet for review.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Is this the same vet who did his teeth and said there is nothing wrong?
If so, I'd call her one more time and tell her not to bother anymore and I'd call another vet right away. Makes me think about if there is any authority who oversees vets.....


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

You could phone the clinic and ask to speak to the owner and complain, or:

https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Pages/Model-Veterinary-Practice-Act.aspx

https://www.avma.org/public/PetCare/Pages/VCPR-FAQs.aspx

tl;dr but I think this is the association to contact if you feel like you need to report a vet?? Or they could at least point you in the right direction.

Uuugh that sucks. I know my vet and farrier really well and I know that both of them put a huge effort into coming to see my horse when there is something wrong - but I have a years long client relationship with them and have worked very hard to maintain that. I can't imagine if I ever had to move vets or farriers  But if I was treated like that I'd have no problem speaking to the owner of the vet clinic about the vet's behavior. And if they were the owner, well then they'd get a nice complaint letter and no more money from me!!

Good luck!


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

if this is the same vet that did his teeth, then said after he can no longer use one side of his fate that "nothing is wrong" i would IMMEDIATELY call another vet.

theres nothing wrong with getting another opinion and if you think your current vet is not doing everything possible then go to another.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

So good news! I FINALLY managed to get some antibiotics! They're not the ones I wanted, but are definately better than nothing. I also got his bloodwork results, and would like to post them here and ask for help as I have no idea what I'm looking at. If anyone has any advice on it, I would greatly appreciate it.
Also, the vet vet that touches my horse will be a different one. I've had enough of this vet.

WBC- 4.5 (5.5-12.5)
RBC- 7.36 (6.50-12.50)
HGB- 11.0 (11.0-19.0)
HCT- 32.0 (32.0-52.9)
PLT- 279 (100-600)

% LYM- 42.5 (0-100)
% MON- 5.4 (0-100)
% GRA- 52.1 (0-100)

MCV- 43 (36-52)
MCH- 14.9 (12.3-19.7)
MCHC- 34.3 (34-39)
RDW- 17.1 (17-21)
MPV- 4.8 (4-6)

#LYM- 1.8 (1.8-5.0)
#MON- 0.2 (0.2-0.8)
#GRA- 2.5 (3.0-7.9)

NA+- 136 (126-146)
K+- 4.8 (2.5-5.2)
tCO2- 28 (20-33)
CK- 214 (120-470)
GLU- 4.9 (3.6-6.1)
CA++- 2.84 (2.87-3.55)
BUN- 4 (2-9)
CRE- 137 (53-194)
AST- 308 (175-340)
TBIL- 31 (9-39
GGT- 13 (5-24)
ALB- 35 (22-37)
TP- 64 (57-80)
GLOB- 28 (27-50)


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I was drawn back.
I love labs. Everything is normal except the low WBC. That can be & likely is, due to an infection site. WBC's leave the bloodstream & go to the site of infection, that's why you are seeing nasal discharge.
If the WBC's start to rise that could indicate that the problem went from acute to chronic.

He could also have a fracture in the jaw or in that area which will give you those lab results too.

It's good that he has been started on antibiotics. He still needs more diagnostic work though.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Someone else I was talking to suggested a fractured jaw as well. How could that have happened though? He's in individual turnout during the day, and stalled at night (which he is usually laying down sleeping for).
I have someone available to trailer him to the clinic, but they cannot do it until the 8th of October, so I am trying to find someone who can do it sooner. I really think the x-rays will give us a clear picture on what is happening inside his head. 
Is there anything that can be done besides a shot that could help raise his wbc? And if there is a shot, does anyone know what the name of it is? (sorry if this was already mentioned. I know someone has, but I've been on tons of forums asking for advice lately, and cannot remember which one says which anymore lol)


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

I don't know the name of the shot. My vet called it something to boost the immune system. I opted out and I waited to see if getting my horse healthy would do the trick. She had many issues going on. But I know it exists and isn't all that expensive like less than $50. But only the vet can do it. It has to go iv. 

Hoping he starts to get better soon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KatRocks (Jul 25, 2012)

When reading labs the numbers in the ( ) are the average range. If you don't know what certain stuff is google it and put in the number counted for. The potassium seems a bit high tho, although its still within range, but it tends to be toward the higher end of the range. In response to Latisha's post, she's correct. Although its tricky because generally speaking a low WBC count would indicate no infection along with no symptoms(ie discharge, smell, oozing ect) but it sounds like there is symptom's of infection so that's considered more telling than just a WBC. Is the infection site hot, tender and swollen? There is also a chance that if the tissue is dying from infection it would present with more of a ... smell than a normal infection. Its all very tricky. I've been following this story and I wish you the very best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

There is no smell from the discharge that I can notice. Its hard to feel for hot areas on his face as he will not let you touch it . Its hard enough to get his halter on now let alone feel over his face. His temp seems to be rising (but is still in the normal range) so I'm going to keep a close eye on it to make sure he doesn't get a fever. (He usually runs at almost exactly 99.5, and today it was 100.5, so not bad, but a bit unnormal for him). The nasal discharge is not there today though, although it does come and go, so this may just be a 'go' day.
The vet did not even suggest culturing the discharge. I was thinking about getting the x-rays first, and going from there. I really hoping to get him in this tuesday, I'm still trying to find someone to trailer him in. 
You have all been so helpful, and it is greatly appreciated! Hopefully the big guy pulls through whatever this is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KatRocks (Jul 25, 2012)

It screams infection to me. Bones can be broken and infection can develop within the bone its self. Hopefully an aggressive treatment of antibiotics will help. I would report the vet as well, even if that means just leaving horrible reviews. Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Soooo glad you've decided to ditch this Vet! I'm not an expert on equine bloodwork, so no help there, however your description of him not wanting face touched/halter on means a lot. The very best of luck with him, and you are doing an awesome job!! He's so lucky to be in your care


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

KatRocks said:


> It screams infection to me. Bones can be broken and infection can develop within the bone its self. Hopefully an aggressive treatment of antibiotics will help. I would report the vet as well, even if that means just leaving horrible reviews. Good luck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's what I'm thinking too especially as he has a fractured tooth on the other side. Something caused that. I don't know if horses jaws are like pelvic fractures or cat & dog jaws where impact on one side often breaks both sides but it could be.

OP, you don't know anyone with a truck/trailer? Can you drive one yourself? What about going to other farms & asking for hauling help? I've done that & had total strangers hand me their keys. I've also hauled horses for people I never met before in the middle of the night. I'm not unique, horse people stick together. Your BO should be stepping up to the plate IMO.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I think I have a trailer set up for tuesday. I've been calling around all day and that's the best I got. Do you think he needs to go in sooner, or can it wait a few days? He's still in a bunch of pain, even on bute, and was rearing and biting on the line when I brought him out to paddock today. My vet said she can't get anything stronger than bute.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm thinking fractured bone now as well. I never thought of how the tooth got broken! When I asked for two weeks ago, she said they break all the time and that he had probably just chewed on a rock.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

My BO thinks I should put him down and not waste my money. I don't really want to involve her if I can help it. She's also very busy and doesn't have time to trailer him in anyways. If he needs to go in asap, I'll ask, and she'll probably do it, but I'll never hear the end of it. Lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Gothic, you're in a tough spot and my heart goes out to you. Just a couple of ideas -- I didn't catch anything in the posts where you checked supplements to raise the immune system up. In humans, echinacea herb will promote immune system to kick in and fight infection. Don't know what would do that in horses but SmartPak is the place I would call. They do over-the-phone support to help you learn what might help. Also, Omega 3's are good for immune system boosts and also an anti-inflammatory (help fight inflammation which, if it's a sinus thing, would support healing of the infection). Good luck on Tuesday. No matter how this ends up, it sounds like you're doing all you can do as an informed and assertive horse owner! I am so grateful to have a choice of vets where we live; it's just unthinkable that you are 2 hours away from the 2nd vet...Good luck!


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Gothic, a couple of ideas - 
1) Check out SmartPak - call them and ask them for something to boost his immune system. They have a great reputation for knowing how to help the body heal itself. If this is a walled-off infection pocket or tooth abscess, it'll be a long haul with antibiotics and it would be great to build up his immune system so that his body is in better shape to fight it off. 
2) If he's a fine-boned small headed horse, he might be having an impacted molar. Mine did that...upper tooth on the right. The deal is that the tooth is trying to erupt (come down) and it doesn't have room. The tooth presses against the neighboring tooth, causing them to hurt as well as the face/nasal bones. Eventually mine had a bump on his nose from the pressure. This condition would be a big deal - there isn't an easy way to extract these and it's major surgery with a long post-op (this happened to us 30 years ago but it was $1000 then, at a vet school clinic/hospital). But...if that's what it is, x-rays would show it for sure and you'd know. 

I just wanted to say to hang in there - I feel your pain, having been in your shoes in the past. It sounds like you're using a good decision-making process, being realistic about the options, becoming informed, and getting assertive with the vet. I don't know what I'd do if there were only one clinic in my town... Good luck!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I will do that first thing tomorrow. I'm going to call the vet in the morning to discuss bone fractures and see what she says. He has a HUGE head (typical standardbred lol). I have been watching his face closely for bumps, but havn't seen any yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Was just heading out for a last feed before bed - please know there are many prayers/hugs coming your way in this!! Try to rest tonight, and I hope the new vet will be top notch and help your horse in every way! Stay strong


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## eclipseranch (May 31, 2012)

well I hope you have a positive outcome on this. I looked over the labs and actually according to blood work it shows no infection. The slightly low WBC is actually quite meaningless...if you look at the second cluster of numbers this is called a differential..it takes the total WBC count (the first number) and divides it in to types of individual kinds of white blood cells. It is actually quite normal =...there is no left shift and the percentages are normal. In the state of infection the cascade of events that happen increase the production and the level rises not falls unless there is an autoimmune disorder or a cancer situation and some medications can do this too. the numbers in () are actually the normal ranges based on the instruments that that particular lab uses...but these typically only change with slight variations ....I do not know what is actually causing the pain, fracture very real possibility. sending positive healing vibes


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

gothicangel69 said:


> My BO thinks I should put him down and not waste my money. I don't really want to involve her if I can help it. She's also very busy and doesn't have time to trailer him in anyways. If he needs to go in asap, I'll ask, and she'll probably do it, but I'll never hear the end of it. Lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ASAP has already come & gone but do the best you can. 
Your BO sounds like a first class jerk. How can she not be involved with a horse in her care? If I were you I'd be looking for a new place to board right after she hauled my horse, some place where the horses are important, then you'd hear the end of it.


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

I agree with Natisha, find a new barn. If any one of the horses at my barn needed to be hauled somewhere. You would have a truck and trailer that day. 

Also as stated before you do not need a high wbc to have an infection. You have to remember this horse had been sick with the flu and just got over that. He also has allergies, which in case some of you don't know is a form of an autoimmune problem. He has been through a lot lately and could simply be run down and not able to fight infection as easily.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm calling the vet and seeing if I can get him in this evening. He's been in pain long enough, and is becoming dangerous to be around (poor guy  ). If the vet will agree, I'll ask the bo to trailer him. My BO is actually a great person, and does care about the horses, she just thinks this is something that will be too expensive to fix, and doesn't want to see me waste my money on it (as she knows I don't have a lot). She also doesn't know how bad he's gotten this past week as she doesn't live on the property. I'll speak with her today, and I'm sure she'll come around when she realizes how dedicated I am now to trying to fix him. Wish me luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jake and Dai (Aug 15, 2008)

I've been following your situation Gothicangel69 and my prayers go out to you and your boy. Good luck and thank you for continuing to keep us updated.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

No luck so far. I've called three different clinics for far, and neither of them can take him, nor have the portable equipment available . Still looking for more vets to call... Why is it so hard to get some dang x-rays?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't get it.....I've seen vets take x-rays if the head with a normal portable machine. 

Don't know if I gave you that link already, but you can try to find a vet through them in your area
Home - AAEP
Go to find-a-vet or get-a-vet, can't remember exactly, sorry. 
Maybeyou should make it an emergency call now, your horse is in pain from a possible head injury, darn it.....


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I've been begging them to come out, but the ones that could do it didn't want to go to the clinic, or get the equipment because it was Sunday. Wth? They are on call for emergencies- I would think a horse in pain is an emergency, but apparently they don't think so. I am so upset and angry. I have one more clinic to call, so hoping for a better answer than the other two (this one's further away, but they may take pitty on me).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Crossing fingers, toes, and saying prayers!!!!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

No good! This vet said he didn't have the proper equipment (in clinic or portable), and that he couldn't think of anyone in the area what could. He said you need a powerful machine to penetrate all the different bones in the head and get a clear picture.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clippityclop (Jul 12, 2012)

Hang in there - maybe you'll find someone first thing in the morning. I'm starting to agree with the others that maybe a radiograph of the side of his face will tell us more.

If you lived closer to me, I'd haul your horse to the vetschool here for you and sit with you in the waiting room. I wish I could come see him myself, and then go with you and ask the vets a million of my own questions and make sure every base is covered and every possible scenario gone through until all of us (vets included) are blue in the face. Not that I don't think you've already done all that - I'm sure you have. I just feel like a gang of us needs to go with you and stand by your side before you make any permanent choices about his future - just to make sure there is no other choice. Ya know?

HUGS


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh I know! My friend said she's come with me when I take him in, so I'll have some moral support. Thank you all for being so helpful. These past few weeks have been awful, and both me and my boy are starting to get down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

So glad you'll have someone with you - lots of hugs and prayers! We're all in this together, so keep us posted


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Good luck tomorrow. It's Monday, maybe one of those other vets will come out tomorrow for you. [fingers crossed]. If your BO ends up seeing your side of the picture and wants to help, maybe she can provide more pull with a vet?


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Where do you live that there are no vets with proper equipment?


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

On our way to the clinic in an hour! I finally managed to find someone who can trailer! I'll let you all know what I find out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Yay! Best wishes! Thank you for keeping us so updated. We are all pulling for you and your boy.


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## Jake and Dai (Aug 15, 2008)

Yay!!!! Good luck today!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Best of luck, so glad you are able to go get the xrays. Sending Positive thoughts!!!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I'm so relieved as you must be too.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

yay! im glad yall are finally getting some quality help!

fingers crossed for good news!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

So... Good news and bad. Good news is we finally got an answer! Bad news is its a tooth abscess\infection, with some bone reformation (I think that's what she called it) around the infection site. We're going to hit him hard with antibiotics for 4-5 weeks and see if we can save the tooth (she said it doesn't look too bad at the moment). She gave him a 50\50 chance for saving the tooth. If the antibiotics don't work, he will need to go to UPEI for surgery to remove it. UPEI is really not an option at this time, so I'm really hoping the antibiotics work. When I brought him in, the vets were looking him over and couldn't find anything wrong. They made me feel like they thought I was making it all up until we got a diagnosis. I pointed to a part of his face, and said 'the problems right here' and they still didn't believe me until the x-rays showed an abscess *gasp* EXACTLY where I had been pointing lol! The antibiotics do seem to be working, as he is not in as much pain today, but went off his feed at noon, so we're taking him off the bute for a few days to give his tummy a rest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

how much bute is he getting?

if hes in alot of pain maybe just splitting up the bute would be better than taking him completely off?? but if its causing him belly ache then idk...just throwing ideas out!

hope he starts feeling better soon!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

GREAT JOB!!!!!!
Finally a diagnosis. 
I guess it's safe to say that we all here hope it'll work with antibiotics alone

And I hope you'll ditch that vet who was "so helpful".....;-)

Big hugs to you and your boy


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Finally a diagnosis! 

I HATE when the "experts" make you feel crazy because you know something is wrong but they can't find anything.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Yay!!!!!!
So glad your boy is finally on the antibiotics he needs 

As the pain lessens with the antibiotics, he wont need as much bute, so instead of stopping entirely, cutting down to 1g twice a day and making sure you are giving it to him after a meal will help his tummy out. Stopping entirely is not something I would suggest.
As well you can look for a feed with a probiotic culture in it and that will help. 

Good luck and keep us updated!!!


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh boy I am so glad to hear this, so glad you stayed with it and didn't give up. Please keep us posted. Yipppeeee!!!!!!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

aldebono said:


> Finally a diagnosis!
> 
> I HATE when the "experts" make you feel crazy because you know something is wrong but they can't find anything.


Actually, MOST vet visits turn up little or nothing. Vets are not mind readers, they do not know where the horse hurts or whats up. It's up to us (the horse owners) to let the vets know how the horse is acting and our observations (as gothic did at her vet appointment) and a good vet will listen to that and come to conclusions based on that. I find that on average it takes 3-5 vet visits for a vet to come up with the correct diagnosis, treatment and recovery plan for a particular horse with almost any condition. Some things like huge trauma, large cuts, colic, laminitis, etc.. are easy to diagnose and the treatment can be very straightforward (as IMO this case was - tooth abscess is to me a trauma and a resultant abscess is no surprise!). But sometimes even something that presents itself as colic or laminitis is not resolved with "normal" treatment and needs to be re-evaluated. This is why I think that having a good relationship with your vet is always a good idea and that you can be able to trust your vet and talk to them. I think this new vet sounds great!


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Actually, MOST vet visits turn up little or nothing. Vets are not mind readers, they do not know where the horse hurts or whats up. It's up to us (the horse owners) to let the vets know how the horse is acting and our observations (as gothic did at her vet appointment) and a good vet will listen to that and come to conclusions based on that. I find that on average it takes 3-5 vet visits for a vet to come up with the correct diagnosis, treatment and recovery plan for a particular horse with almost any condition. Some things like huge trauma, large cuts, colic, laminitis, etc.. are easy to diagnose and the treatment can be very straightforward (as IMO this case was - tooth abscess is to me a trauma and a resultant abscess is no surprise!). But sometimes even something that presents itself as colic or laminitis is not resolved with "normal" treatment and needs to be re-evaluated. This is why I think that having a good relationship with your vet is always a good idea and that you can be able to trust your vet and talk to them. I think this new vet sounds great!


I don't remember the correct wording, but when the first vet said there was nothing wrong and she had to be unnecessarily persistent to get antibiotics. That is when you feel crazy because something is obviously wrong and the vet wouldn't do much.
That is why I will always get more opinions when dealing with a life and death situation with any of my animals. Personal research goes a long way when dealing with vets/farriers/etc and having someone who will work with you and has past dealings so they know you aren't a whistle blower about the smallest things. 

Build up a good reputation with this vet so they will work with you in the future.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

It wasn't so much that they couldn't find the answer that was making me mad, but that they weren't being very helpful. It bugged me because I KNEW it was an infection, and she didn't believe me because 'the testes said so'. It wasn't like I was asking for a serious procedure, just a bottle of antibiotics to try. I do think she was a touch embarrassed when she found out that it was in fact an infection when she had said it definitely wasn't. 
He was on 3 grams a day of bute (1 1\2 twice a day). The vet wants to rest his tummy for two days before adding more bute (if he needs it by that time). She did say that if the pain gets really bad, she will find a pain med that's easier on the stomach (which she said she didn't have last time). 
I do think this visit humbled the vet though. She seemed much more helpful by the end of the visit. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt for now, as everyone makes mistakes, but I will know from now on to trust my gut, and keep demanding until I get answers. 
He did seem a bit better today, pain wise. I think the pressure must be subsiding due to the antibiotics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Such wonderful news, and especially the fact that you're so obviously on top of things - sometimes a slice of "humble pie" gets things in order? Good for you and your horse, and the best of luck as things progress


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Can you get him some kind of probiotics? I think it was mentioned before but that will help keep his stomach settled while hes on the antibiotics and pain meds.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Great stuff! Answers make solutions much easier to find. It sounds like your vet recognized her error and will learn from the experience. I hope so. Oftentimes, learning by experience is the only way unfortunately. And good on you for not being vengeful with the vet. After all, the other vets were doubtful also until they saw the x-rays!

Good luck with the antibiotics! Fingers crossed.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Gothic, this is good news. At least now you have something to work with. A couple of comments - the probiotics are a great idea. While I don't know that they are soothing to the tummy, per se, they will replenish the gut flora that are necessary for digestion and good health. If he's going to be on hard hitting antibiotics for 4-5 weeks, that will wipe out the 'good bacteria' in his gut and make him susceptible to other illnesses during this time. Fastrak or its 'twin', made by Brookside, are affordable and will save you $ in the long run. Check out valleyvet.com or SmartPak. Second, the bony reformation that the vets are talking about is like what my horse had. The bone around the socket expanded due to the infection in the tooth. It will most likely go back to normal after the infection is gone, although it may take a while. It took a couple of years for my gelding's face/nasal swelling to go away....but it did! 

Good luck with all this!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Fantastic news. Were there any signs of bone infection?
Neighlox is an inexpensive way to help protect the stomach.

As he's going to have a long rehab I hope you'll consider finding a barn that will help you & support you in your decision.


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## clippityclop (Jul 12, 2012)

This is GREAT news! Here's a BIG HUG and WAY TO GO putting your foot down. Doesn't give you the best feeling towards veterinary professionals after all of this does it? LOL - and that's comes from someone who works in the veterinary field as well. SO GLAD you found someone who would listen. There are all types of people, just as there are all types of professionals. I can't believe that the first vet wouldn't even give you a referrel to someone else just to be sure. At least the folks I work with will say 'hey - this isn't my expertise and just to be sure, let's send you down the road to Dr. John Doe' - you had to do that yourself.

Give yourself a pat on the back and gets some good nights sleep and let's hope the antibiotics clear it up! Now it is the waiting game.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Probiotics are a great idea. I'll check around tonight and try to pick some up . 
They didn't see any signs of bone infection, but are sending the x-rays off to veterinary universities for second opinions. I wonder how the poor guy's doing today being off the pain meds? As of yesterday, the pain was more localized instead of spread over one whole half of his face, which is great, but he was also on the pain meds yesterday. Hopefully he's not too bad off. I'll find out tonight when I go to check up on him. If the tooth does eventually need to be removed (which I'm thinking it does) how long can you wait before getting it done? The surgery will probably cost around 5000 (although I'll know an accurate estimate soon), so if I do decide to take him up there, It would take be quite a while to save up the money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've been following this thread and so glad to hear that you are on the right track now. 
The probiotics are a good idea as the antibiotics do a good job on the bad stuff but they also kill of the good bacteria the digestive system needs.
You might find that an acid reducer also helps to soothe his stomach as most painkillers tend to cause ulcers when they are used for any length of time
I've worked with a few vets in the past and have had close friends who were/are vets so I question everything - not in a confrontational way (because if you get to that point you need to change vets) but in a general debate way. As owners we have the time to spend researching stuff in all sorts of ways that a busy vet with lots of cases often doesn't so I find that they value an owner who takes the time to share intelligent opinions and ideas.
Hope the recovery continues


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## KatRocks (Jul 25, 2012)

Im so glad you have finally got what you needed. I share your aggravation. I understand vets are not mind readers and its tough to find a definitive diagnosis for any sort of animal, let alone human. But especially with animals, I know what's normal for my pony or my chihuahua. I see them everyday and I know when something is off or not right. I expect a vet to take that very seriously. You knew it w as the. jaw area. And maybe had a vet taken the fact that you proabaly know your horse better than they, it could have saved you money, time and frustration. Let us all know how he responds to the antibiotics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

Woo-Hoo!! Now hang in there because the meds might work. I had posted to you previously, my horse had something very similar last year. One vet didnt know what it was, next vet xrayed and said meds for 2 weeks, 3rd vet from an equine speciality hospital stepped in and said meds, 8 weeks. I thought for sure my horse would have to have his tooth removed, he is perfectly fine and kept his tooth. Also, he had a huge lump which i was told that may or may not go away, it has gone away. So keep the faith, you are on the trail to healing!!!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Its so nice to hear a story that didn't involve removing the tooth! I really hope his turns out the same. 
Apparently he didn't finish all his breakfast today . We may have to put him back on the bute tomorrow. If we're lucky though, he won't need it anymore after a few days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

I would assume (because I am certainly not a vet!) that the reason he is having such a tough time is that the infection has gone on much longer than anyone knew. But you cant feel bad about that because many times we dont know our horses are sick until they go off thier feed. The antibiotics will take a little time to fight off that infection but again, hang in there, keep the faith!!! You are doing all you can and your horse thanks you for it!


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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

Also, I just looked back at the email I had sent to the specialty hospital and the x-rays for my horse. The terms the vets used for his infection was an abscess and again, he came out just fine! Even all of the boney growth, the lump, went away. So yes, there can be a wonderful outcome and a long future for your boy! My horse was only 7 when this happened and who knows why.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you all for the uplifting posts! I really hope he pulls through this. I believe this has been going on for over 3 months as the vet said yesterday that the fracture on the other side was probably about 3 months old. A blow to the head could certainly cause a fractured tooth and maybe possible form an abscess over time on the other side if it was damaged at all. He started acting like a butthead again about that long ago. It just took a while until I figured out it was due to pain and not just a behavioral problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

No noticeable improvement in Flash yet. He doesn't seem to be in as much pain, but is still very much hurting. He didn't want his morning or afternoon hay slop yesterday, but ate a bit when I got there later in the afternoon, and he ate is evening grain\hay soup ok. He also bit me yesterday, but didn't rear on the line as usual, and he let me give him a head hug (which I havn't been able to do lately, but its something he loves). 
How long should it be before I see a noticeable improvement? I know he's only been on them a week, and the increased dosage for only a few days, but am not sure how long I should be waiting for improvement? A few weeks, days?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I've never had as serious an infection, however when I have had to be on antibiotics for stuff I've noticed that the first dose gives the greatest relief and then the pain gradually decreases after that. I wouldn't be expecting him to be "normal" until he is 75-80% done the course of antibiotics. So a few weeks.
If he is still painful at that time, then I would call the vet about a more aggressive antibiotic treatment.

Good luck!


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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

Does your vet have him on an aggressive antibiotic? I dont know much about meds but know that meds such as smz's or uniprim wont do it.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I can't remember what type it is. I'll have to look tomorrow. Knowing her, its the crappiest kind out there. What would you suggest? We asked for injectables, but she said she didn't have any.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

In mild cases which I give antibiotics to my rats, it usually takes a week to notice an improvement. I am not sure with such a bad infection as he had. Don't give up hope yet.

Also, I am sure the vet told you but some people don't know. He needs to finish his bottle/dose of antibiotics. Finishing early because he feels better may not fully kick the infection and that is how resistant strains of bacteria are made (from my understanding). 

Give him some scratches from me if he will tolerate it.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

I would not be surprised if his pain didn't appear much better for a week or so. Infections of the tooth are deep and it may be walled off (e.g. a poor blood supply). In that case, it's going to take a while to clear. Plus, he may have pus built up in there, which has to be absorbed back into his body...so all that's crammed in there with the tooth, forcing the bone to expand and causing all the pain. The change will be gradual as he feels better from the reduction of the infectious process and the slight relief from the swelling going down.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks guys. That makes a lot of sense. I plan to use the antibiotics for 5 weeks, or at least one week after all his signs have disappeared (whichever comes last), so he will be on them for at least 5 weeks. Hopefully he'll gradually feel a bit better every day . I'll give him lots of scratches for everyone tonight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

The meds my horse got was doxicyline (spelling?) 8 weeks and there was another one for the first 5 days, cant remember, started with and M and that was given 3 times a day. Also, I would continue on with the meds for longer than 5 weeks. I can only speak from my experience. The vet clinic that i took the horse to for xrays wanted him on meds for only 2 weeks, vet from specialty hospital in another state stepped in and said no way, 8 weeks and the horse had to be x-rayed again before going off the medication. It was a very loong treatment and of course right during riding season but we did what we had to and he recovered. And of course since it was during riding season he wasnt ridden at all last year, this year I could have used a trainer, naughty spoiled boy!!! LOL!!!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks for that information. I'm thinking 5 weeks isn't long enough either, especially since I'm not seeing much improvement yet. He didn't eat any of his grain or hay this morning. I finally had to hand feed it to him after two hours of him staring at it (he only ate the grain hand fed though). He did start munching on his soaked hay a bit when I put him out, which is good. He will look at his food, lip it a few times, but won't eat it until you take it in your hand and stuff it in his mouth (then he gets all excited). Its weird because he's better in some ways, but worse in others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Flash is going great! He ate all his grain this morning, and is eating hay normally. He's still in a bit of pain, but not much. He cannot eat hard grain yet, but I'm hoping that will come soon. We still have another month of antibiotics left to use, so I'd say he's comming along pretty good. Hopefully the tooth heals enough so that the infection won't come back. The pre and probiotics are helping with his stomach, and the cats claw, vitamin c, and echinicea must be helping his immune system as he's been getting better by the day since I've put him on them. 
We're going to start working him a bit this weekend to help him get some weight back on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Yay!!!!


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh I am so happy to hear that. YAY FLash!!!!!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Yuppers! I'm very happy. Hopefully these antibiotics will work. I won't stop worrying for at least a few months, then will always be waiting for it to come back. These guys sure know how to keep their mommies worrying don't they?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Great News!


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

gothicangel69 said:


> ... These guys sure know how to keep their mommies worrying don't they?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh yes - they excel at that!!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

gothicangel69 said:


> Yuppers! I'm very happy. Hopefully these antibiotics will work. I won't stop worrying for at least a few months, then will always be waiting for it to come back. These guys sure know how to keep their mommies worrying don't they?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes they do but in Flash's case now his Mommy knows how to take a stand. 
I'm so happy you didn't give up on him when so many around you did.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Hallelujah!!!!!!!!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Bad news! The nasal discharge is back today (not much, but its yellow and goopy) and his face was tender to the touch. 
He seemed to be doing so good the past week , and I was really getting my hopes up, but now I'm not too sure. Why would the discharge come back while he's on so much antibiotics? Its been gone for weeks! Could it be something unrelated (which I doubt)? I'll ring the vet up in the morning to get her thoughts, as this has me quite worried. He's not coughing, temp is normal, and glands are normal. He is very tired, but has been for the past week now, although he is eating flakes of hay, and his soaked pellets with gusto now, which is excellent. He still has three weeks of antibiotics to go. Is there a chance this may be just a minor setback, or is it most likely really bad news? I'd hate to lose my boy after fighting soo hard!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KatRocks (Jul 25, 2012)

Sometimes the same infection could flare up again. Is the dose tapering off? Def talk to the vet. I've been glued to this thread for awhile now so keep us updated and good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Ì`m going with some sort of minor setback. Perhaps it is something as simple as he was feeling good, over used the bad part and made his face a little sore. I was led to believe that yellow discharge is dead bacteria (and white is dead white cells) so if that is correct, he may just be ridding himself of a bit of buildup.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Oh I really hope that's all it is! Should I go back to just soaked hay pellets again? I only upped him to his normal rations 4 days ago...maybe I upped him too soon? His blanket should be here soon, so if he drops a bit more weight, he should still be ok.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

And no, the dose has not been tapering off. He's still on 40 pills a day, and still has three weeks left at full dose.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I second Chevaux's line of thought. Might be a pocket sort of, which opened up now. IMO it's good when it comes out, something less the body has to deal with to resolve.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

I think it might be prudent to return to soaked and keep every thing as easy on his mouth as possible.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Sounds good. I'll put him back on soaked pellets. How many lbs of this a day should he be getting? He is only fed three times a day (although I could bump it to four).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

1 lb of pelleted equals usually 1.5lbs if normal hay. Four times a day is always better than three. I'd give 2-3lbs per feeding, if he finishes it, and have flaked hay always available.


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

When humans have a sinus infection or anything that affects the sinuses draining is good. When it stops draining is when it's time to worry. The bad and icky stuff needs to go somewhere so I think in this situation it's good.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks. He currently getting 6lbs of pellets a day, plus 6 large flakes (unsure of weight). I'll cut him back down to 3 flakes a day, and up his pellets.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

More bad news. Flash now has diarrhea, which is FILLED with thousands of tiny red worms. These wern't there two days ago, and he was just dewormed a few months ago...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

gothicangel69 said:


> More bad news. Flash now has diarrhea, which is FILLED with thousands of tiny red worms. These wern't there two days ago, and he was just dewormed a few months ago...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 In the UK we call them 'redworms' (small strongyles) - these are likely to be the encysted worms that have been burrowed into your horses gut wall, they can stay there for up to 2 years and often shed at this time of year causing diarrhoea, sometimes colic and frequently ulcerated areas in the gut
I cant remember now which worming programme you used (sorry) but if you did treat for encysted worms its possible your horse has a resistance to that active ingredient and you need to choose one thats effective for encysted worms with a different chemical - you might want to discuss with your vet if a 5 day course might be safer on his systen than a 1 treatment blast. I would also treat him with an omeprazole based acid reducer immediately and keep him on something like Absorbine Pro CMC for a while as that coats the stomach lining to protect it from the acid and also works as an antacid as its calcium/magnesium based
He's still going to need anaemia treatment as until all these issues are resolved he's at risk and your grazing is certainly going to be contaminated. he might even be better off stabled for a while and led out to exercise several times a day
Hope he's OK, I'm sorry he's had a downturn but he has a really good chance of getting through it.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh dear sorry to hear. I hope it is just the bad stuff coming out and your pony will be ok. Sending healing jingles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Panacur powerpac is a 5 day treatment for the encysted worms. It really works but I would make sure he doesn't have to many where that would cause colic if you kill too many at once.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I spoke to the vet, and we've put him on half a dose of strongid today, another half in three days, and a full dose of equalin gold in 7 days. She did say there was a high probability of him colicing due to the shear amount of worms in his body, and didn't seem to optimistic. She also said the worms are most likely preventing the antibiotics from working properly, and if we can eliminate the worms, the medication should start working again. This past week he seems like he's starting to give up. I just don't think he wants to fight anymore  I plan to give the wormers a go, but if he doesn't improve soon, I'm afraid the kindest thing to do is send him to the green pastures in the sky.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I have to say, um still not very impressed with this vet of yours... seems like she's not very into it with your horse. 
Regarding the bloodworms, I had two colts with bloodworms, came like that straight from the breeder. The first was so full of them his immune system was completely out of whack. Got fixed. Second one equally full, and untouchable to boot. So paste worming was impossible. I put him on daily dewormer until I could work with him and get him touchable. Both came out of it fine. The first had the worst case of papillomatosis my vet had ever seen and due tovthe worms his body couldn't fight the virus. Once the worms were out, he started healing. 
So this might be the case with your boy. 
I see if I can find which dewormer is efficient and yet mild enough to less likely cause colic. And I doubt he'd colic anyway, since they are coming out already.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Okay. I checked and double checked. Vet seems to be on the right track. Only thing I found other than the current treatment and jaydee's comment is that often a corticosteoroid is given parallel to deworming to take care of the inflammation in the gut from the big worm burden. That inflammation can make the dewormer inefficient. 
Colic risk you have either way, with or without deworming. 
Him being weak and tired for the last week could very well be due to the emerging worms, so has nothing to do with his tooth problem. 
So, don't give up just yet, please. Take care of the worms now and continue antibiotics for the tooth. AND STAY POSITIVE, especially when around your boy. He'll sense that and keep his will to fight.
Seems like he decided to have all problems all at once. Good thing about it is, once he's through with it, you're good to go;-)
So, hang in there. He's way to sweet to be given up upon just yet.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks for the information and well wishes. I am getting quite discouraged, but try my best to stay upbeat around him. The vet did want him put back on bute for a few days, so would that cover the anti-inflammatory part? She didn't say why, just to put him back on 1 gram for a few days. I havn't given up quite yet, but am getting very close. His bills are already very high, and I really can't afford to keep fighting one problem after another. I'm desperately hoping we can get rid of these worms without any complications, but after seeing the crazy number of them today, its hard to stay optimistic. His poo looked like it was moving there were that many of them, and boy does he ever REEK!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Poor girl. I can imagine....I've seen a whole ball of a foot long wiggly worms apart from just about any other species of worm come out of a weanling.......I didn't eat spaghetti for the longest time after that;-)
Vet might have that in mind with the bute, although the article says corticosteroids, not just bute. 
As for deworming make sure you do it first thing in the morning so in case he does get a belly ache at least it will be caught. Then, after that, you might want to give him pre-and probiotics to get his gutts back to normal. If you don't already do that, can't remember.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

He's been getting pre and probiotics for a few weeks now . I'll speak to the vet about the steroids you mentioned. I gave him his dose around noon today, and havn't heard anything bad yet, so fingers crossed! There keeping a close eye on him at the barn .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Good
Just make sure somebody will check on him if possible before going to bed again tonight. 
Btw, that wormy weanling never colicked. But he was sure swishing his tail a lot right before all these passengers came out;-)


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Gross!! I'm sure Flash will leave me a lovely present like that as well! (Maybe I'll get lucky and another boarder will find it first lol!!)
My friend (who lives there) is going to check on him every two hours tonight (she offered, I didn't even ask). Its so nice to have wonderful friends who love your horse as much as I do. Flash has had someone checking up on him at least 8 times a day (from 7 am until 11pm) through this whole ordeal. If he's feeling off, someone checks on him halfway through the night. He has 5 different 'nurses' caring for him . Everyone here is so worried about him. He's everyone's favorite guy at the barn as he usually has a puppydog personality and adores attention. Even my farrier calls to check up on him between visits, and will not allow me to pay for trims until he's better. The horse community here is so caring and wonderful. I have people all across the province asking for daily updates.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Now that is nice! 
We here are with you too 100%, I dare say. And I have a really soft spot for standies anyway....had two of them when living in Italy.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

He's definitely given me a soft spot for them as well. I didn't know anything about them until I bought Flash. I was with everyone else around here saying standies were good for nothing. There are a lot of people around here who have changed their minds about the breed because of him .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clippityclop (Jul 12, 2012)

Well don't forget that a really nasty bout of embedded strongyles can cause a bit of an anemia (on top of colic) when they all let go at once. That in itself will give you the impression that he is run down, unwilling to move, and in some instances, will lay down and just can't get up too fast. No worries - it will pass, but it does take time to build the blood back up.

Saw that ALL OF THE TIME with goats - they get so heavily infested, that you have to deworm in stages because if they all let go at once and are passed, the poor animal becomes so anemic that they actually lay down, turn gray (withing 2 hrs of deworming) and die.

I think it is good the vet is deworming slowly - Panacur is a great idea, but because he has so many, there would be a 50/50 chance that it could turn lethal. Dr. Green and Dr. Time (good grass and patience) are in order....hang in there....


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Flash seems to be doing ok this morning according to another boarder, so that's good news so far!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Just a thought but would the worms contribute to his low white cell count? I know my girl was infested with the encysted worms this summer and her white cell count was extrememly low along with her red cell count.

Another thing to consider is Red Cell to build the blood back up faster and it will also help his immune system. I would also do the Panacur Powerpac a few weeks after this deworming to make sure you killed off all the worms. As the dewormer you are giving him now will not kill all the worms, there are too many for it to be that effective but it will help prevent colic by killing a small amount first then hit with the heavier dose in a few weeks after his gut has had a little time to recover.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I'll ask the vet about Red Cell today. That may very well be one reason why his wbc was low as it does make sense. We did the strongid yesterday and again this wednesday, then equalin gold in 7 days, then a fecal. I'll ask the vet about panacur and see if she thinks its a good idea to use in a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

The encysted worms will only show up in a fecal when they are being shed. So if a large amount remain burrowed in the gut wall a fecal will not show them. If he has this many it's really useless to even do a fecal you can pretty much guarantee that some remain in the gut wall.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The fecal is still useful as it will indicate how many worms are still alive and shedding. I imagine that the vet will also do a blood test to check for encysted later on

*OP* - Please hang in there. We've bought horses for very little money in the past that were pretty much rescue cases. A couple we were told had enough redworms to kill a small pony yet they came through it and made full recovery to become useful riding animals and in those days wormers were no way near as effective as they are now.
I am prescribed steroids myself occasionally as they have an anti-inflammatory effect that works on me and is safer on my stomach than NSAIDs and they also subdue my body's auto-immune system (which the white blood cells play a huge part in) as often in cases like this it over reacts to something and puts up a defence that can do as much damage as the thing it thinks its defending against


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Here is the info on treatment, symptoms and future prevention:
Merck Veterinary Manual


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks guys! We're keeping a close eye on him (checking temp, gums, etc) every few hours. So far he's a bit tired, but is not showing any stomach pain. I'm so worried that I'll get a call saying he has coliced or died . I'll be speaking with the vet again this afternoon.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I didn't know there was a blood test for encysted worms! I'll definately be discussing this with the vet. His nose is still running, but the vets pretty positive that if we can get rid of the worms, the antibiotics will start working again. I hope so as I can't afford another 800 antibiotic treatment if we have to switch. We're keeping him well hydrated, and hoping for the best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

The tiredness is from all the worms hatching. That's exactly what had happened. He had a bunch if encysted worm larvae who were not affected by the previous worming. They all came out at once. And it is highly possible that the antibiotics will be working once the worms are out. 
If you read the above article and pretty much all other literature,Panacur Powerpac is the only thing that works for the encysted larvae. Quest doesn't get all lifestages. 
The corticosteroids are to help with the inflammation of the gutt caused by the hatching. 
I'd say if he hasn't colicked from the first half of the dewormer by now, you shouldn't have to worry. 
Give him a big kiss on the nose from me (not on the snotty part, tho)


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Just got off the phone with the vet . She said to continue watching him closely, but he should be out of the woods as far as impaction colic by now. I will make sure to use some panacur after these treatments to get all the encysted little ******s. The vet said she wants to continue with the current antibiotics for two more weeks, then stop them and see what happens. If the tooth infection comes back, we'll put the poor guy down (which I'm thinking is a very real possibility).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Not regular panacur. It is called Panacur Powerpac. It is a 5 day treatment consisting of 5 tubes of 57g each. You can order it online for around $60.

Panacur Powerpac Fenbendazole Paste Wormer 5-Dose - Statelinetack.com

It is very important to know the difference between Panacur and Panacur Powerpac. With the load he has one dose of regular panacur wont get rid of all of them.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you for clarifying that. I'll be sure it get the right stuff .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Your welcome  So many people use the two interchangebly and have no idea they are two different products. I do think Panacur could have labled them a little differently to avoid the confusion.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I DID say Powerpac......;-)


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Hehe yes you did but the OP just mentioned panacur so I wanted to make sure she knew there was two different kinds.... they apparently didn't have the best marketing team.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I instead would like to know how many normal Panacur they sell due to people not realizing the difference;-)


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

Well considering the powerpac you can't buy in stores, I'm sure a lot lol. We actually just ran into this problem at our barn. My horse caused a huge worm epidemic on our field, this was before I got her (add that to the list of things I'm still ****ed at the "rescue" for) and one person fought tooth and nail that he did the powerpac but it only cost him $10................

Yes, $10 for the regular one dose...... oh he's still not convinced he was wrong......


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You can buy the Panacur powerpac online from places like Smartpak and horse.com
The normal Panacur has exactly the same active chemical ingredient as the Powerpac - Fenbendazole the difference is that the normal one is administered in one 25gm syringe and the powerpac is a 5 dose course with 57gm per syringe. Basically you are just hitting the worms with a way stronger dose which is why it works but can also have a really harsh impact on the digestive system
One of the big complaints about the producers of these wormers is that despite all the latest research results that indicate the contrary they are still advising people to use their wormers every other month (same active ingredient) or even on a daily basis and that is whats caused the resistance to wormers thats now become a major problem. Some people are worming their horses regularly believing them to be under control and then discovering they actually have a major infestation which is why the fecal counts are important.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Just got back from the barn . Flash is acting normal (for him at the moment anyways) but his tummy is rock hard and a bit distended. He didn't seem to interested in his treats that I brought him, but did eventually eat a few. I checked out all of his poo, and was only able to find a few worms in a couple piles. Shouldn't I be seeing a bunch by now?? His poo is normal looking though, no diarrhea. Someone will be checking on him in a few hours to see how he is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## clippityclop (Jul 12, 2012)

Let's not forget to add a decent probiotic in a few days or so (after everything is done with except the antibiotics and his tummy has a chance to self regulate) ....might help him feel better and regulate his bowel again.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

He's been on probiotics for almost two weeks now to help counteract the bad side effects from the antibiotics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## poppy1356 (Jan 18, 2012)

So here's a question about pro/prebiotics with antibiotics.... In humans you never take probiotics within 12 hours of antibiotics otherwise they cancel eachother out. So does the same apply to horses?? Has anyone thought about this since the new surge of pre/probiotics for animals?


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

So I think the time has finally come to let Flash go. The antibiotics are just not fixing the problem, just slightly masking the symptoms. His face is still bothering him (mind you not near as bad as it was at the beginning). The vet said she expected him to be pretty much completely back to normal by now, and he's not even close. Even the other boarders, who were begging me not to put him down at first, are telling me as well that they think its time. I have done everything I can, short of surgery, and it has not helped. I plan to call the vet today and discuss having him put down in the next two weeks (need to arrange travel to the rendering plant, hence the one to two weeks). 
I'm so heartbroken at the thought of losing him, but I really think its the only humane thing to do given the circumstances. No way can I leave him in pain, knowing its something I can't fix.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

It had been a few days since you had posted, Gothicangel, and I was fearing it was not good. I truly am sorry to hear this.


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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

Im soo sorry!! I have been trying to follow this thread but I have missed some. Did you ever say what the antibiotics were that the vet put your horse on?


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh so sorry to hear this, you have tried so hard.

Big hugs to you


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## Jetson (Apr 12, 2012)

I just did go back and get caught up a little and read about his blood worm infestation, so so sad. Sounds like the treatment was all quite pricey, I feel bad for you that you tried so hard for so long.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

The treatment for this past month has run me around $2000. I'm sorry for not updating sooner, but have been busy thinking and trying to help my boy. I found a college close buy that takes horses (the body) to teach their vet tech students how to perform autopsies. The owner gets a copy of the report and findings, and afterwards they cremate the body. It only costs 200, which is pretty good. While I hate the thought of his body being cut up, if it helps another horse due to their findings it will be worth it. I also might get some information as to why he's not responding to treatment and why his system is so compromised. We've decided to make a nice straw bed in the trailer, sedate him and help him lay down, then admin the final dose after he gets loved over for a few minutes. This past year has been an emotional roller coaster. As sad as I am to have to let him go, I almost feel relieved in a way that all the fighting will soon be over (I feel awful for thinking like this though).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Just got off the phone with the vet. She agrees that we have done everything possible, short of surgery, to get him better. We're stopping treatment today, and putting him on a good pain med (not bute) until I can make arrangements. Hoping to get everything sorted out by Monday.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh dear my heart is breaking for you. I should not read these threads while at work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Oh Gothic, so, so sorry to hear this. I know how hard you tried to turn things around for your boy. I personally think donating his body to the college is a wonderfully noble last act for him (what I hope to have done with my own body when the time comes) and agree it will be nice for you to have some answers. So glad you'll be able to love on him in his last moments, as sad as it will be for you. You know he won't be hurting anymore, which is what you clearly want above all.


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## Tiamo (Oct 16, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear this, was really hoping he would pull through. Your doing right by ending his pain, you tried your best. ((hugs))


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Sorry for your loss. Sometimes the kindest thing to do is euthanize.


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## csimkunas6 (Apr 18, 2010)

OP, Im so sorry to hear about this!!! (((HUGS)))))!!!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks guys. He's being put down tomorrow afternoon. A farmer agreed to look after everything for just $400 (trailering, putting him down, and burying him). It was a very nice offer, and the man seems to really care about animals. I'm happy that he'll be buried in a huge field, and I think he would like that. I plan to be there for the whole thing, but probably won't watch when he's shot. I'm very upset, but also relieved that he will be out of pain soon. I told him this morning that he would be out of pain soon, and it was almost as if he understood what I was trying to say. A huge sigh came out of him, and he seemed to relax.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I just thought I would post a few pictures for everyone.
Here he is earlier this year.

























At the vets








His ouchy face








And his is him yesterday. You can clearly see the weight loss and poor look.
















And this one was taken a week and a half ago.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I was scared to look at the pictures....expecting to see a run down, shaggy looking, potbellied, dull coated skinny horse, going by your description.instead I see a horse who is a little thinner, but not very much, who is eating, even going for what little grass there is.
You said in your other thread the vet wants to keep going with treatment. Yet before you posted that she thought treatment wouldn't go anywhere.
Sorry, I don't get it.......
I wish he was closer to me, I'd take him off your hands and your wallet right away.

It's your horse and your decision, and I do understand that you feel relieved. Just, I wouldn't give up just now, especially now that the vet has changed her mind.
I know I'll hear some rather unpleasant things from folks here. But, as always, I stated my honest opinion.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I do appreciate your opinion. Outside he doesn't look awful, but inside I know he's suffering. All he does day after day is stand by the gate, nothing else. He doesn't run or play. Whenever you take him out for grooming, he doesn't want to walk, and when he does his head is almost drooping to the ground- almost like he doesn't have the strength to hold it up anymore. On thursday the vet agreed that the right decision is to put him down, then when I was talking to her on Friday, she said she wants to try ulcer treatment (wth?) and kept pushing me to get the surgery, even though I told her I couldn't afford it. The fact that he is going downhill so quickly is disturbing, and he is clearly telling me that he doesn't want to fight anymore. His pain is increasing by the day and he is very miserable. He's been in pain for over a month now, and I think he's had enough. I'm beginning to think this all happened because of the flu. It seems like right after he recovered from it, his immune system started failing. He developed a cough\wheeze this morning on top of everything else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

If this is the same vet who first said it couldn't have anything to do with his teeth I kinda see her coming to her senses finally. Ulcers are highly possible and can make him feel awful on top of the bad tooth, the worm belly ache and all the meds. If she wants surgery is she offering you any kind of payment plan? Something to consider. The 400 you don't have to spend in having him pts can go right to it. 
When I said I'd take him I meant that. Just making that clear.
And one other thing to make clear, maybe not so much for you, since you're going through this, but for the others who think different. If there is a good chance that an animal recovers completely with a certain procedure, I'd go for it and make it possible, no matter what it takes. If its highly unlikely that the animal does improve and has a decent quality of life I'd finish it right there. 
Can't explain why, but I somehow think a hole lot went wrong in first diagnosing(we know that) and treating. That's why I said the vet has probably finally started to use her brain. 
I can understand the emotional rollercoaster you went through, trust me, and I had the same feeling of relief when a very sick horse of mine was gone. But to this day I keep asking myself if I didn't miss anything. I also had a horse with a condition put down who could have been,only a year later, healed, due to knew research. Not a good feeling.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I know you are tapped out financially. However the thing to consider is, while he has been on anti biotics for so long, they would not have been working due to the worms. Is there a chance to do the panacur power pack, add some gut coat and continue the anti biotics? I think the power pack and gut goat will give him a much better chance at the anti biotics working. Plus if he does have ulcers or even a chance of them the gut coat will help. It is basically pepto for horses. 

He is a beautiful boy and he is truly lucky to have someone who has gone to the extremes you have. 

You mentioned UPEI. So you are in the Maritimes. Check with Morningstar Acres. They are a standie rescue and will do everything to help them.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Just to update everyone, Flash was put to sleep this afternoon. He is buried next to the property owners old horse, and the wife goes out every night to say goodnight to everyone buried out there. She is getting him an engraved grave stone with his Name and dob. I don't think he could be in a better place right now. Where he's buried is literally a horse's paradise. I am going to ignore the posts who are against my decision. Not trying to be rude at all, but you do not know my situation and I have made my decision after clearly considering every option and what was best for my horse. While I am devastated and in so much pain right now, I still know I made the right decision. When the trailer pulled up to take him away, he got very excited and hoped right on (he hates trailers). When we arrived at the property, he looked so happy , excited, and relieved. When we said goodbye, he muzzled me then turned around, and followed the farmer quietly away. It was almost as if he knew exactly what was happening. My heart is breaking and I don't know when I'll ever stop crying. There is a huge whole in my heart that I don't think will every be filled. I just can't believe that I'll never see him again and I keep imagining what it was like when the farmer pulled the trigger. They gave me his halter back all wrapped up in a plastic bag. When I got home, I took it out and there was a bit of blood on it. I had been expecting to see blood, but the sight of it just completely sent me off the deep end. I don't know if I'll ever he able to stand being around horses again. I guess I'll just give it time, and hope I'll be able to get back into the horse community some day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

I think you did the right thing by you and your horse no matter what anybody else says. You did what you could for as long as you could do it and you made the hardest decision any horse owner will ever make in their lives, for the good of your own horse. That is the best you could do, and you did it.

I'm sure Flash is appreciative of everything you did for him, including putting him to sleep when all else failed.

It will take time, but you will be around horses again, once its in your blood it doesnt leave, take this from somebody who had her horse die in her arms a year and a half ago. Granted she passed naturally, but it was still the hardest thing I've ever done and it still brings tears to my eyes even now. It will always hurt, I know that, and you will probably think about him every day and wonder if you did the right thing, you will have days of doubt, the "what ifs" still spring to mind for me even a year and a half later.. "what if I had done this earlier" "what if I had called the vet the night before" "what if.. what if... what if" theres always those questions. You just need to believe in yourself, that you know what was best for your horse and you did it even though it hurt you to do so.

It gets better, it actually does. It might be hard to believe so early on, but it does get easier. It just takes time.

Kudos to you for doing what you did for him, he would have passed knowing he was loved and cared for and his mummy did everything she could for him until the very end. That's all that matters now, whats done is done and he is now forever to be comfortable up along the rainbow bridge, free to run to his hearts content and eat anything and everything without a care in the world.

RIP Flash <3


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Your love for Flash shows throughout this whole thread. I'm crying for your loss but mostly I'm crying because I know how much you are hurting.
I don't know you but I would be proud to have someone as caring & strong as you for a friend.
Flash thanks you.


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks everyone. I have been having a really hard time coping with this. I had to take his bloody halter out of the bag last night to hang it up to dry, and I just lost it. This is the hardest thing I've ever had to go through. I've known horses who have died growing up, but none of them have felt like this. I am glad he is out of pain, and I still know I did right by him, but it doesn't make it hurt any less.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh my heart breaks for you. RIP Flash He was so beautiful!


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## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

It seems people in another post believe I'm making up the whole thing, so I will be permanently bowing out of this forum. Some of the comments I have received are cruel and heartless. For everyone who gave me support, thank you greatly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

If your story is real then WHY is it different on every single forum you post on? Some forums the vet helped right away, others they didn't, others it was a good chance of recovery, others it wasn't.

Your story changed forum to forum. You spun it in the direction others were taking it. So yea. We are not impressed after all we did to help you. 

You stated out right that all the rescues you called were full. Yet all the ones I called and my friend called had room, and were more then willing to take him and give him the care he required. If those pictures you posted were real. He did NOT look like a horse knocking on deaths door.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

gothicangel69 said:


> It seems people in another post believe I'm making up the whole thing, so I will be permanently bowing out of this forum. Some of the comments I have received are cruel and heartless. For everyone who gave me support, thank you greatly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Cry me a river.....really.....


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Not to carry drama over but I wanted to make one last post.

I did a google search and she is on every single animal forum you can think of.

The death count so far has been

20 some odd cats/kittens either dead, sick, dying or injured. 7 different species of frogs, a few different snakes, newts, fish, lizzards, rabbits, rats, birds, ferrets and even a pig. All dead.

I actually am really sad for the OP. Because it seems to me she is just a very sad and lonely person. I don't believe all these animals have had the issues or deaths she claims. I think she is just someone who really has no one in real life and looks for someone to care for her online.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

And very desperately. 
What she didn't see is that, had she have been honest, she could have had some friends here.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

It's sad really, sad how many people fall for it. Many years ago I poured out all sorts of sympathy to someone who claimed they had lost a foal right after my little guy had died, still rips me apart when I think on it, they were a troll, making it up.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Its almost like the people who go on forums claiming they have life threatening cancer and they are close to death and are struggling with the medical bills.

I know I got sucked into pity parties on forums in the past. I have sent so much money and tack, clothes, baby clothes etc to people on forums over the years because they claimed to have nothing. Only to find out later they were lying and scamming. I just can't bring myself to fall for stories like this anymore. And its a shame because I am sure some are very real and they really could use the help. But so many people have been scammed they are now bitter and jaded. The bad people have ruined it for the good people.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I can't express how disgusting this whole situation is to me. Gothic, for your sake I hope you're still very young and that this will not be a life-long trait....


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## OutOfTheLoop (Apr 1, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> If your story is real then WHY is it different on every single forum you post on? Some forums the vet helped right away, others they didn't, others it was a good chance of recovery, others it wasn't.
> 
> Your story changed forum to forum. You spun it in the direction others were taking it. So yea. We are not impressed after all we did to help you.
> 
> You stated out right that all the rescues you called were full. Yet all the ones I called and my friend called had room, and were more then willing to take him and give him the care he required. If those pictures you posted were real. He did NOT look like a horse knocking on deaths door.


I saw the pics and thought to myself my what a healthy horse. Didn't look half dead to me either. It gets to me though because I actually had a horse that coukdnt eat because of mouth problems. (Broken jaw) I had him to the vet and in surgery within two days. He was home a week later, and I hauled him back and forth twice a week for the next month. I don't believe that any vet would not have done better treatment. Even the ones that suck at yhier job still want the money and will try anything. I just don't buy that the vet kept putting off any treatment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Reminds me of Brad Paisleys 'Online' song.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

What? This wasn't real?? Its seemed so detailed to me that there is no way it couldn't have been. Maybe there are other people with the same username in the world?... very possible. This seemed too detailed for someone not to have gone through it.

Maybe I'm just naive.

I couldn't find any other threads on any other horse forums. Can anyone post a link, if we are allowed to?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I like to believe the best in people but something wasn't smelling right in this thread from the start. 
I have come across some vets that are less able than others and in a mixed animal practice its not easy for a vet to know as much about each type as one who specialises does. However I find it hard to believe that any vet would have gone on this far with a horse that seemed to have some severe dental issue and not X rayed the face to rule out an abcess under the tooth. 
I know there can be risks but if antibiotics weren't effective in a very short time the tooth should have been removed and the sinus area flushed out and drained. 
Most vets will arrange a payment plan where the person is in financial difficulties.
If this isnt someone scamming then either the vet or the owner is responsible for some serious neglect as far as treatment of this horse goes


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

This makes me sad and a bit angry. I've been following this thread from the start, hoping Flash would get better. Then I come on today and find out that it's not true. And when people start to become suspicious, OP just backs out and stops answering? Seems pretty suspicious to me. If it was true you'd think she would stay and prove it so.

I too have googled her username, and NBEventer is right, she's on TONS of animal forums. I didn't read them all, just one other about Flash and looked through the posting history on a cat site (Where there was indeed several deaths and sicknesses). I think that, if these are fake, I hope she stops this. If all of her posts are real, then maybe she shouldn't own animals if all so many of them end up like Flash supposedly did.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

What made me personally suspicious was her post here in September where she was looking for her heart horse she had sold 6! years ago. Then I found a nearly identical post on another forum that she had found her heart horse again, but asked for advice what to do, especially with Flash. That post was from November LAST year. And shortly after, mir even pretty much at the same time she posted the one here, so, this year, she starts talking about putting Flash down, which she apparently did. 
So, two possibilities. She wanted her heart horse so bad that she figured out a way to get rid of him and look good doing so. Or all is just a lie and she lost track of what she posted where and needed an elegant way out.
Either way, she escaped here and now also left the other forum.


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## MLShunterjumper (Mar 17, 2012)

Wow. Just wow. I am completely shocked. I never posted on this thread because of my still limited knowledge, but I followed it right from the start. I gave my sympathy, hope and, eventually, cried for this horse and this "rider. I try to avoid assuming the worst of people, so at first when someone said that this is a scam, I was shocked and horrified. Well, now I am even more shocked and horrified. Those other forum memberships, the numerous animal "fatalities," and the sympathy sites...wow. I was naive and now I am ashamed of myself. Some people are just parasites, living off of others' misguided sympathy, time and money. All I have left to say is, I hope with all my heart that there really never was a horse.:shock:


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