# Why lessons are awesome



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I just wanted to share this because I sometimes see posts from people who are frustrated with lessons or don't feel they need lessons, or perhaps just don't feel they are getting enough out of them. 

Maybe I'm blessed with an amazing coach (she's pretty awesome), but I LOVE my lessons. I had taken a few last year, when we got our first horse Harley, then stopped so we could focus on my daughter since she competes in the summer. And then we built a barn, got a second horse, and I figured I don't really need lessons since I can just ride at home. However, the footing got bad this winter and I couldn't ride at home. So I decided to go take lessons at my daughter's lesson barn for a while, since they have an indoor. Now that I have my "rider legs" under me, so to speak, I am benefiting so much from lessons! When I was doing them last winter, I was still pretty unbalanced. Staying in two-point was pretty well impossible. But this winter, I'm progressing so much! Other than cantering and making sure I'm getting the right lead, I'm learning to do a collected and an extended trot. Today, I was working on those and had a moment where I felt my lesson horse reach into the bit. I know it's minor to most riders, but for me, it was so thrilling! At that moment, I understood what it felt like to have full contact and communicate with your horse. 

I've also noticed that when I do get to ride my mare, what I'm learning to do on the lesson horses transfers to a much, much better ride! She's a good horse, but lacks refinement. Mind you, my lesson horse is no dressage horse, but at least she knows the cues. Kodak, on the other hand (my mare), is still learning some of them. My ability to transfer my knowledge over has been such a positive experience for both of us. Otherwise, we're just two greenies fumbling along.

I think that taking lessons from a really good coach who knows when to push and when to slow down has made me into an active rider. My core engages, I feel my abdominal muscles hold me in place while I post. I think a lot of people who say it doesn't matter because they "just" want to trail ride (and I was one of those people) are riding passively. They just sit there, enjoying the view. Which is fine, I guess, if you have the kind of horse that is ok with that. My mare needs a rider who takes control and rides actively. And frankly, for me, it is so much more rewarding to be that kind of rider. I GET it now. 

Just thought I'd share to encourage those who are struggling. A year ago, I had to hold my horse's mane to keep my two-point or I'd just flop over. Now I can canter, change leads, and as of today, ride a collected and an extended trot!


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Agreed!! I have taken a similar journey. I LOVE my lessons and cannot see myself ever giving them up, unless I give up riding. I had a good seat before and could control a horse just fine, but I've learned SO much about the nuances of riding and having more precise control of the horse. There's certainly more to riding that go faster, slow down, and turn (which is about what I knew before).


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Also, it's been beneficial for me to ride different horses. Challenging horses. Not like the ones my daughter rides (she's the one they put on the new horses now, yikes!). But ones that have bad habits like drifting, picking up the wrong lead, being too lazy, etc. I'm learning to correct each of these issues and again, it is helping me deal with Kodak's issues because now, I know how to fix them. I can use the patient lesson horses who are used to riders making mistakes (sorry lesson horses) rather than ruin my own horse.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I agree 100%! I have always taken lessons, some instructors are more effective than others, but I always got something out of a lesson. The coach I have now is one I tried riding with 25 years ago and she was always booked solid, it wasn't until about 7 years ago I got the opportunity to go to her, never looked back since. She is worth her weight in gold and she isn't a small lady either!


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## Definatecowgirl (Apr 1, 2017)

Just an opinion from the other side-I have been a trainer, coach & judge for many years. The smiles I see on my student's faces when they learn how easy & more enjoyable their riding is when they learn to do something correctly! That is the best feeling for me as a coach.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Definatecowgirl said:


> Just an opinion from the other side-I have been a trainer, coach & judge for many years. The smiles I see on my student's faces when they learn how easy & more enjoyable their riding is when they learn to do something correctly! That is the best feeling for me as a coach.


Great to hear from a coach! I hope mine realized just how much today's lesson meant to me. I think so - we've known each other for a few years now, and at 46, I don't get excited that easily anymore. But I was genuinely excited to feel my horse reaching for the bit today! Such a small thing, but so huge for me! We do appreciate the dedication of these amazing coaches so much!


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

Absolutely! Lessons are fantastic and truly it doesn't matter what "level" you're at or how small the steps seem to be. Every new pieces of knowledge is exciting and I think that's what keeps bringing people back to riding. I know it's why I am so passionate about dressage. I love taking lessons, clinics, riding almost whatever I can and in general developing. The learning is addicting. Every single ride I learn something new or I realize something I never realized before and think wow I wouldn't have known that had I not had it pointed out to me or wow I hadn't thought of it that way, this is better. It's constantly expanding and improving upon concepts you think you know. It's like you're constantly adding depth to the essentials and discovering better and better ways to do basic things. 

I will say it still surprises me when people say they don't need a coach and I understand if the person doesn't have the money or there arent any decent coaches in their area but I think there is such a wonderful and enlightening experience that happens in a learning environment and continuing education. There is always something to improve or work on. I mean even Charlotte Dujardin still trains with Carl, so it always seems silly to me when people say they don't need a coach or trainer. No matter who you are, what you've done or have accomplished, you always stand to learn something.

I love taking lessons because it's so eye opening. I don't even know how to explain what it is but it's so neat to discover new details you didn't notice before that allows you to be a more empathetic, effective and skillful rider. I love being able to understand my horses better and better and understand how to train and develop them in better and better ways. I mostly develop young horses but it amazes me how much developing them helps me ride schoolmasters and improve their quality of gaits, movement and ride them. It gives you a real understanding of how to ride, build confidence, earn trust, and communicate effectively. 

I also love when I can get on a variety of horses and have to adapt and effectively communicate, motivate and get more from the horses and earn their confidence and trust. It's neat. The better I become the more able I am to earn their trust and to build their confidence through scary situations and can encourage them. My mare for example is pretty spooky but it's never an issue and she gains confidence in not learning a fear reaction. You cant prevent everything but training them to tune in and listen, rather than spook and react as a pray animal builds a lot of trust and communication skills. It's a beautiful thing.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@DanteDressageNerd yes! Exactly! 

To me, lessons are a fast forward way of becoming a better rider. Sure, you could ride for 20 years and figure some of these things out for yourself, maybe. Or you could ride for 20 months under a good coach and learn from them, then make it into what you want. It's like any kind of learning - humanity has progressed because we are able to pass on our knowledge over generations. Why reinvent the wheel? Take the knowledge you can gather from others, make it your own, then go even further if you wish, but to refuse to tune into that knowledge is counterproductive. 

And yes, I get that some might feel lessons are too expensive. But heck, everything's expensive these days. And I often get the impression that it's more about ego. Some people just don't think they need lessons once they get past a certain point. But as you point out Dante, even pros still have coaches! It's not easy, that's true. I'm 46 and am a successful professional. I really have to suck it up out there, riding with girls who could be my daughters (and actually, one who IS, lol). It's not easy on the ego to compare myself to these kids. And my coach is tough, but so effective. Some are put off by her approach, but most come back week after week, even when there are tears of frustration. Because when you get it right, she lets you know you got it right! And you look forward to those moments. You work for them because you know they're not given freely. You forget that you're supposed to be old and wise and are like a kid again, trying to get it right. 

Riding is a humbling experience. But being humble is good for the soul.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> ...She's a good horse, but lacks refinement. Mind you, my lesson horse is no dressage horse, but at least she knows the cues...
> 
> ...I think a lot of people who say it doesn't matter because they "just" want to trail ride (and I was one of those people) are riding passively. They just sit there, enjoying the view. Which is fine, I guess, if you have the kind of horse that is ok with that. My mare needs a rider who takes control and rides actively...
> 
> ...And I often get the impression that it's more about ego. Some people just don't think they need lessons once they get past a certain point. But as you point out Dante, even pros still have coaches!...


Writing from the other side - as someone who took lessons that were not helpful, and who finds the approach used in many lessons underwhelming - I find your comments far from the mark.

For example, my current horse "lacks refinement". Probably always will. If you define "refinement" as responding quickly to subtle cues. Like all of my horses, he won't sidepass in an arena. Yet if there is a REASON to move sideways, he'll do so easily. And since I don't ride in open areas and suddenly decide to move my horse sideways...that suffices. We can move the way we need to move, together, in the areas where we ride together.

More importantly, HE takes care of getting us from A to B when the footing is suspect or challenging. There are times I'll slow or stop to look ahead, trying to figure out how we can get through some brush and up some awkward area. My HORSE is looking too, and when his ears click forward and his back tenses, I know he's ready. Then WE go forward, and I don't have to worry about him getting nervous or quitting, because he's a stubborn horse and won't give up easily.

If we need to adjust going up out of a wash, he'll take suggestions from me - and since I often don't know how I'm giving him those suggestions, he is obviously capable of responding to changes too subtle for me to even know I'm giving them - but HE is the one who makes the final decision, because HE is the one who can feel the footing below and adjust quick enough to keep us from falling. 

There are frequently times I am along for the ride, content to try to stay out of his way because he needs to be free to adjust based on how his feet feel the ground.

And when we thread our way between cactus, and I pull a leg up on his back because there isn't room between the cactus for him and both of my legs, and I watch the spines passing inches away from his flanks and my remaining leg, I'm GLAD I'm not trying to tell him where or how to move!

But I also find it sad that you think many of us ride a horse by merely sitting on top of one, passively viewing the scenery and not involved! The idea that someone needs to take lessons or else they sit on top of a horse like a sack of potatoes is ridiculous. A new rider often does so, but that doesn't describe me or any of the regular trail riders I meet.

The idea that we all have calm, phlegmatic horses, strolling along on autopilot, carrying our dead weight is snobbery. I'd be willing to match Mia against any of your horses for being an intense, challenging horse! And when Bandit arrived, he was known to buck hard sometimes or to take off sideways or across yards or desert in an attempt to avoid something scary. "Scary" could be defined, by him, as a car parked on the side of the road. Or a trash can. Or an odd looking piece of wood beside the trail.

He hasn't made the progress he has because we spent a lot of time working on 'body control' in an arena. He's made progress because he's been taught to trust me, and he's learned those lessons in the only place they help - when he afraid of something ahead of him. Or beside him. Or behind him. 

Even now, he frequently encounters something he doesn't like. But instead of trying to get away at all costs, I can tell him, "_Oh come on, boy! I see it, and you can do it!_" And my legs and seat and hands and voice reassure him, and we go on. Sometimes quickly, and sometimes while sideways - but we go on. Now. Instead of trying to turn and get away. Or buck. But reassuring him involves a lot more than sitting like a bump on the log while he hauls my passive butt by!

Like Mia, he's an independent, THINKING horse. Like Mia, you cannot go anywhere on him by just sitting there, enjoying the scenery and unaware of your horse! He is, like Mia, constantly THINKING. And you either ride his mind, or you will come off.

And yes, I've learned to ride a scared horse by...riding a scared horse.

Bandit's a much more solid citizen than he was a year ago, but that is because I've exercised his mind, and trained his MIND every bit as much as training his body. But you cannot teach a horse to control his fears, or to listen when afraid, without going places where fear becomes an issue. You also cannot train a horse to handle ground that gives way, or to push thru brush, or to carefully pick his way between cactus, without GOING places where the ground gives way, or there is brush to push through, or cactus to avoid.

Horses learn good judgment the way humans do - from experience, and experience comes from using bad judgment and surviving.

*I'm not attacking anyone for riding in an arena. I don't CARE if that is what you do. And if you are getting good things from taking lessons somewhere - GREAT!* 

But a lot of "lessons" can be learned from the horse! The lessons that come from a horse might well differ from what a human teaches in "equitation". The principles of the "forward seat" were used by unschooled, "untaught" riders for thousands of years before they were accepted by a lot of 'trained' humans. My legs don't move around based on what human judges tell me, but based on what experience has taught me works well for both staying on and for reassuring a nervous horse. 

Don't assume an "untaught" trail rider just plods along on an unmotivated, barely alive horse like 150 lbs of gear stowed on top of an uncaring beast of burden. Horses make GREAT instructors - for anyone willing to listen.

BTW - the closest thing to professional trail riders that I can think of ride on ranches. And very few ranchers take life-long lessons in riding horses, EXCEPT as taught by horses.


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

Ummm...I'm not sure where all THAT ^^^ came from but I'm pretty sure you took that way out of context. In her original post she says, "Just thought I'd share to encourage those who are struggling." She's referring to a completely different discipline and I highly doubt she's trying to knock trail riders, but you reiterate in your argument that you sit and wait for your horse to make the decision. Something that simply can't be done in dressage. It's not about whether one discipline or approach is better than the other. I'm pretty sure the thread is about the joy and rewards of becoming a better rider.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thank you Tihannah. Yes, I believe you understood my original post. 
@bsms I don't know why you took my post so personally. Yes, I do make a distinction between riding passively and riding actively. There is a very real difference and since I've done both, I can say that with a great deal of certainty. It has been a revelation to me to discover that I can communicate with my horse in a far more effective and subtle way than I ever knew was possible. Asking a horse to collect and engage his hindquarters is something that I really wanted to learn to do. Not to impress anyone. Not to show. And certainly not because I want to spend all my time riding around an arena. But just because I want to learn as much as I possibly can about riding. Having ridden a very finely tuned dressage horse (my daughter's Arab), I have an appreciation for how amazing it feels. I hope to teach my mare to acquire a little more refinement because it will make riding more pleasant for both of us. 

I actually do trail ride a lot and intend to do mostly that with my mare. However, she had a few issues we needed to work out first, which led me to work with her in an enclosed area. I'm excited to teach her new things because they are, in fact, often quite useful on the trail. They also help us bond, build a relationship and gives her much-needed confidence in her abilities. Sure, I suppose I could watch a bunch of Youtube videos and try to wing it, but working with a trainer (horse) and a coach (for humans) has allowed me to progress much faster than if I was just trying to figure things out by myself. I could not have achieved what I have so far without my coach by my side explaining to me how it's done. She has vastly more experience than me, and it just seems like a no-brainer to take advantage of that experience. She is also a great troubleshooter, so if my horse is doing something undesirable, she knows exactly how to fix it. I don't, and I'm ok with admitting that.

Maybe you didn't have a good coach. But to suggest that one can just let the horse make decisions seems a little risky given that they are flight animals. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever let your horse choose it's own way through a steep bank, just that you need to decide whether that bank is the best place to cross or not. I agree with you that it's a team exercise and that there's give and take, but even teams need coaches to be the best they can be!


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> Also, it's been beneficial for me to ride different horses. Challenging horses. Not like the ones my daughter rides (she's the one they put on the new horses now, yikes!). But ones that have bad habits like drifting, picking up the wrong lead, being too lazy, etc. I'm learning to correct each of these issues and again, it is helping me deal with Kodak's issues because now, I know how to fix them. I can use the patient lesson horses who are used to riders making mistakes (sorry lesson horses) rather than ruin my own horse.


Yes, agreed! I love the opportunity to ride different horses. Each one brings out different faults or weaknesses of mine. I really think you are a much better rider if you've regularly ridden different horses. It's amazing to me how something as simple as posting can be on different horses.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

If someone is not getting any benefit from lessons, it can be because of having a poor instructor OR because of being a bad student. Many people have a problem with taking direction from anyone because the "don't like being told what to do" attitude. I instructed dog obedience classes for 25 years and the people who complained about not learning anything were the ones who thought they knew it all, argued with me and just did not have the open mind necessary to listen. My 4-H kids that I instructed could run rings around most of my adult students in the obedience rings because they had open minds, wanted to learn, and believed I knew what I was talking about. I bet it is the same with horse instructors.


I am glad the horse I used to ride out on BLM ground knew how to side pass *when I asked him to *because I am short and could not dismount, open a gate, close a gate and then mount back up on flat ground without difficulty*. *He knew how to side pass, of course when HE wanted to, training is having him do it when *I* wanted to. All horses can walk, trot , canter, turn, stop, back, side pass, jump, collect, etc etc etc. Active riding is the rider being able to cue for and get all these things from the horse when wanted.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Acadianartist said:


> @bsms I don't know why you took my post so personally. Yes, I do make a distinction between riding passively and riding actively. There is a very real difference and since I've done both, I can say that with a great deal of certainty. It has been a revelation to me to discover that I can communicate with my horse in a far more effective and subtle way than I ever knew was possible. Asking a horse to collect and engage his hindquarters is something that I really wanted to learn to do. Not to impress anyone. Not to show. And certainly not because I want to spend all my time riding around an arena. But just because I want to learn as much as I possibly can about riding. Having ridden a very finely tuned dressage horse (my daughter's Arab), I have an appreciation for how amazing it feels. I hope to teach my mare to acquire a little more refinement because it will make riding more pleasant for both of us.
> 
> I actually do trail ride a lot and intend to do mostly that with my mare. However, she had a few issues we needed to work out first, which led me to work with her in an enclosed area. I'm excited to teach her new things because they are, in fact, often quite useful on the trail. They also help us bond, build a relationship and gives her much-needed confidence in her abilities. Sure, I suppose I could watch a bunch of Youtube videos and try to wing it, but working with a trainer (horse) and a coach (for humans) has allowed me to progress much faster than if I was just trying to figure things out by myself. I could not have achieved what I have so far without my coach by my side explaining to me how it's done. She has vastly more experience than me, and it just seems like a no-brainer to take advantage of that experience. She is also a great troubleshooter, so if my horse is doing something undesirable, she knows exactly how to fix it. I don't, and I'm ok with admitting that.
> 
> Maybe you didn't have a good coach. But to suggest that one can just let the horse make decisions seems a little risky given that they are flight animals. I'm not saying you shouldn't ever let your horse choose it's own way through a steep bank, just that you need to decide whether that bank is the best place to cross or not. I agree with you that it's a team exercise and that there's give and take, but even teams need coaches to be the best they can be!


:bowwdown: I love this post so much I have to quote it.


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## Kaiit (Mar 28, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> Also, it's been beneficial for me to ride different horses. Challenging horses. Not like the ones my daughter rides (she's the one they put on the new horses now, yikes!). But ones that have bad habits like drifting, picking up the wrong lead, being too lazy, etc. I'm learning to correct each of these issues and again, it is helping me deal with Kodak's issues because now, I know how to fix them. I can use the patient lesson horses who are used to riders making mistakes (sorry lesson horses) rather than ruin my own horse.


Also agreed! It's nice to get to ride a variety of breeds and shapes as well, to work on the old muscles! I have also found the opposite to what you're describing - that I sometimes learn something new on my own horse that I can apply in a lesson to the schoolies. In fact, my own horse has taught me _a lot_ and he's helped me progress no end. But everything learned from every _different_ horse is one step up to being a better rider.

I miss the guidance with my own horse that I'd have in a lesson. I've got to figure things out myself always asking, "is this the right way to do it? Am I doing this bit right? How slow should I start this? What exercises can I do?" But I can always take my questions to my instructor and ask what I should be doing/expecting!

Group lessons (which I take) are slow going because everyone has to progress as a group, but I always think that I can work on my posture because it's not perfect, I can work on my seat aids, I can still practise the basic stuff so it doesn't bother me when the lesson is basic!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Thank you Tihannah. Yes, I believe you understood my original post.
> 
> @*bsms* I don't know why you took my post so personally. Yes, I do make a distinction between riding passively and riding actively. There is a very real difference and since I've done both, I can say that with a great deal of certainty....
> 
> ...But to suggest that one can just let the horse make decisions seems a little risky given that they are flight animals....I agree with you that it's a team exercise and that there's give and take, but even teams need coaches to be the best they can be!


I quoted what I took exception to. Yes, I also make a big distinction between riding actively and passively, but that distinction is not grounded in lessons. Or in trail riding: "_..I think a lot of people who say it doesn't matter because they "just" want to trail ride (and I was one of those people) are riding passively. * They just sit there, enjoying the view*. Which is fine, I guess, if you have the kind of horse that is ok with that. My mare needs a rider who takes control and rides actively..._"

There are undoubtedly people who "just sit there", and even that can be OK for some people. But I don't know any regular riders like that. Folks who enjoy lessons are certainly welcome to enjoy them and progress in any way that makes them and their horse happy. But let me use my SIL in an analogy:

My SIL loves playing guitar. He's had lessons, once in a while, over the years. But he's gone years without weekly lessons. He plays, for his pleasure, about an hour a day.

He is more than good enough to play for small groups. But as a professional guitarist once told me, "_A person can learn to strum a few chords in 30 minutes, but no one lives long enough to master the guitar._" My SIL plays beautifully by my standards, but he'll never turn pro. Nor does he want to. He'll never master the guitar. He has no interest in weekly lessons. But he also loves playing with better guitarists, and picking up things from them in a relaxed setting. And no one plays the guitar for an hour or more a day without loving it.

Similarly, a person can love riding and ride "good enough" without lessons. What is good enough? If your horse comes to enjoy being ridden, and you can return from most rides with both horse and rider contented...that is "good enough". If you horse becomes more confident and trusting over time, that is "good enough". If your horse becomes softer with time, that is "good enough". Good enough, that is, for what a lot of riders seek in riding. Good enough to have a contented horse.

There is nothing wrong with that. I've met plenty of self-taught riders with contented horses. And there are plenty of people who have taken lessons for years that I wouldn't allow to get up on my horse...


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Kaiit said:


> Also agreed! It's nice to get to ride a variety of breeds and shapes as well, to work on the old muscles! I have also found the opposite to what you're describing - that I sometimes learn something new on my own horse that I can apply in a lesson to the schoolies. In fact, my own horse has taught me _a lot_ and he's helped me progress no end. But everything learned from every _different_ horse is one step up to being a better rider.
> 
> I miss the guidance with my own horse that I'd have in a lesson. I've got to figure things out myself always asking, "is this the right way to do it? Am I doing this bit right? How slow should I start this? What exercises can I do?" But I can always take my questions to my instructor and ask what I should be doing/expecting!
> 
> Group lessons (which I take) are slow going because everyone has to progress as a group, but I always think that I can work on my posture because it's not perfect, I can work on my seat aids, I can still practise the basic stuff so it doesn't bother me when the lesson is basic!


I like group lessons, as long as it's not too big a group. I find that the breaks between the coaches focusing on me and focusing on other riders give me time to work on what she's just taught me. Maybe it's because I'm an adult rider, but I have to perform a new movement a few times to really understand it and memorize it. While she's talking to the other riders, I can do that. I should say that in my small groups (3 riders usually), she encourages us to keep riding regardless of what the others are doing. We are expected to anticipate and plan, and if another rider breaks stride or is having an argument with their horse, we have to circle or cut across the arena safely and maintain our own pace. Which in and of itself is a challenge! The horse I usually ride is also not good around other horses, so I always have to maintain a good distance between myself and other horses on top of keeping her on track and at the right pace. 

The reverse of dealing with horses that throw challenges at you is horses who are particularly talented at certain things! You must be lucky to have a very talented horse if you're learning a lot from him. My Arab Harley is like that, but my QH Kodak isn't as finely tuned. However, on the ground, she far exceeds his talents! I can walk her around anywhere and she's perfect. Stops when I stop, backs up when I back up, pivots on the haunches when I ask her to, moves her shoulder. Polite, calm, attentive to me. It's like leading around a perfectly trained dog. My Arab, on the other hand, is jiggy, wants to eat grass, see what's going on over there, will pull the lead out of your hands, etc. etc. But ask him to collect at the trot, and he's perfect. Consistent pace, rhythm, engaged hindquarters with nice momentum. 

It's useful to ride a horse that can do something really well because then you know what it's supposed to feel like. My coach went on and on about contact and collection and having my horse reach into the bit, but until I actually experienced it, I didn't really GET it. Now I do and I want to do it again! And again! LOL


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

bsms said:


> I quoted what I took exception to. Yes, I also make a big distinction between riding actively and passively, but that distinction is not grounded in lessons. Or in trail riding: "_..I think a lot of people who say it doesn't matter because they "just" want to trail ride (and I was one of those people) are riding passively. * They just sit there, enjoying the view*. Which is fine, I guess, if you have the kind of horse that is ok with that. My mare needs a rider who takes control and rides actively..._"
> 
> There are undoubtedly people who "just sit there", and even that can be OK for some people. But I don't know any regular riders like that. Folks who enjoy lessons are certainly welcome to enjoy them and progress in any way that makes them and their horse happy. But let me use my SIL in an analogy:
> 
> ...


Fair enough. Of course you can be satisfied with riding on your own without taking lessons. I didn't say everyone SHOULD take lessons, though I'm pretty sure everyone could benefit from lessons. It's obviously your choice and there's nothing wrong with that. The point of my original post is that some people are quick to dismiss lessons when they might have a lot to gain. I also wanted to share what made lessons so rewarding for me to encourage those who, like me, are adult riders just starting out (or re-starting, like myself), and feel like they'll never get it. I didn't get it right away either. But I do now, and it's a revelation to me. 

I guess I'm just not the kind of person to stop at "good enough" when it's possible to go further. I'm like that in every part of my life, so not surprisingly, it transfers over to riding. Not that I'll ever be great, but if I can be better, and if someone can help me achieve that, then I see no reason why I wouldn't go for it.


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## Kaiit (Mar 28, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> I like group lessons, as long as it's not too big a group. I find that the breaks between the coaches focusing on me and focusing on other riders give me time to work on what she's just taught me. Maybe it's because I'm an adult rider, but I have to perform a new movement a few times to really understand it and memorize it. While she's talking to the other riders, I can do that. I should say that in my small groups (3 riders usually), she encourages us to keep riding regardless of what the others are doing. We are expected to anticipate and plan, and if another rider breaks stride or is having an argument with their horse, we have to circle or cut across the arena safely and maintain our own pace. Which in and of itself is a challenge! The horse I usually ride is also not good around other horses, so I always have to maintain a good distance between myself and other horses on top of keeping her on track and at the right pace.


Ditto! The breaks give me time to focus, readjust my position if I need to and even just relax some of those key muscles a bit when at a halt. Your lessons sound really well planned and executed! Unfortunately our groups can be 6+, usually 8 riders at a time, so we don't have so much freedom. We're also mixed ability so some of us are practising say, smoother transitions and using our seat, while others are just focussing on getting a canter and maintaining a trot. It's not a bad thing though, all of us can help each other, give each other advise, and watching other people really helps with correcting my own faults! That's why our lessons can be a bit slow going, though - there's a lot of halting and taking turns to trot/canter/jump. I still enjoy going, regardless, because it gives me good practise


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Anyone can benefit from qualified eyes on the ground. Without some kind of 'policing' we all tend to do what is comfortable and not necessarily what is correct. A lot of instruction is just teaching proper muscle memory, so what is comfortable IS what is correct. Anyone who wants to improve needs a trainer. If your trainer doesn't have a trainer, you need a new trainer.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

*"Fair enough. Of course you can be satisfied with riding on your own without taking lessons. I didn't say everyone SHOULD take lessons, though I'm pretty sure everyone could benefit from lessons. It's obviously your choice and there's nothing wrong with that. "*




That was absolutely clear and I don't understand how offense could have been taken by anyone who doesn't take lessons or want to take lessons.


Wonderful post, I feel exactly the same about my adventure in learning!


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> Fair enough. Of course you can be satisfied with riding on your own without taking lessons. I didn't say everyone SHOULD take lessons, though I'm pretty sure everyone could benefit from lessons. It's obviously your choice and there's nothing wrong with that. The point of my original post is that some people are quick to dismiss lessons when they might have a lot to gain. I also wanted to share what made lessons so rewarding for me to encourage those who, like me, are adult riders just starting out (or re-starting, like myself), and feel like they'll never get it. I didn't get it right away either. But I do now, and it's a revelation to me.
> 
> *I guess I'm just not the kind of person to stop at "good enough" when it's possible to go further. *I'm like that in every part of my life, so not surprisingly, it transfers over to riding. Not that I'll ever be great, but if I can be better, and if someone can help me achieve that, then I see no reason why I wouldn't go for it.


This whole post I entirely agree with and LOVE the bold part. That is exactly why I take lessons. I know there is SO SO much I do not know and I will not learn on my own or reading books or watching youtube videos because even watching videos and reading is limited to what I already know, rather than having someone show me and give me the opportunity to ride horses who know or in general just riding a large variety of horses. Riding takes a lot of mental and physical work. I'm a former US Marine and I get winded all the time when I ride and I get physically tired from riding because it takes SO much to ride well. My trainer has a lady who is a marathon runner who is so exhausted after 3 laps around she has to take a break. It takes a lot and there are so many parts and details that are easily over looked.

Yes horses are good teachers. I've learned a lot from the horses I have ridden but lessons and watching great riders is also very helpful. I've ridden over a 100 different horses. I've ridden horses who were trained in various disciplines, numerous different types and learned so so much from riding them all. Every horse has something to teach you, you absolutely are never in a position where you know it all. And again what you can learn from a horse is limited to what you already know, yes you definitely learn and expand but supplementing with lessons is also beneficial because someone who knows more than you is showing you what you don't know or a better way to do something or giving you an idea you would have never had on your own or a different way to approach a situation or in general details you wouldn't have been aware of otherwise.

That said I do not care whether people take lessons or not as long as they're happy and their horses are happy. I don't care what people do if they're safe and happy and considerate but I think anyone can benefit from lessons from a competent coach. 

After almost every lesson I thank my trainers or coach for the education, you have to be open to learning. Whenever I take a lesson with someone new, in general I'll accept most of what they say and do as they say (provided I know it would be bad for my horse or it's not bad advice, I will say no to a trainer if I think it's unfair) but I'll try, even if I disagree at the time because who knows maybe it'll be better than my way or maybe it won't work for the horse I'm on but i will work on another. Every horse rides a little differently and goes through a different training process. You're never done learning. The moment you say I know it all is the very moment you shut yourself off from learning and growing. I think learning and growth should always be sought for but for me that is something I value above almost anything else.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Even my cowboy husband will take a lesson from his "snotty-English-riding" wife every once in a while.


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## Tihannah (Apr 7, 2015)

For me personally, the benefits of working with a GOOD trainer, or even several good trainers are priceless. People who are equally talented, but have different approaches in teaching. I can sometimes go weeks or months without a lesson, and eventually I find myself getting frustrated and stuck in a rut, and unable to make the goal clear to my horse. When I have a good lesson, it's like a veil is lifted, and the mountain is no longer so huge. I am constantly HUNGRY for more and the reward of accomplishing something new is like a high for me. Competing? Eh, I get a little nervous and am happy when we do well at shows, but when I get to do clinics with top trainers, hell, I can't even sleep the night before because I'm so giddy with anticipation, and excited for what I will have the opportunity to learn and discover about my horse and myself!

Not my quote, but needed to share:
"One cannot compare playing a guitar to riding a horse..last time I checked a guitar has no life force of it's own, you play the wrong string, it sounds bad, it does not try and dump you. Finger the wrong frets, and the guitar will play off key, but you won't have taught it that playing the wrong key is OK. To me my trainer is my translator, she helps my horse and I talk the same language, and makes sure that I ask clear questions, and reward good responses. You simply don't learn that on your own..."


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I will say it still surprises me when people say they don't need a coach and I understand if the person doesn't have the money or there aren't any decent coaches in their area but I think there is such a wonderful and enlightening experience that happens in a learning environment and continuing education. There is always something to improve or work on. I mean even Charlotte Dujardin still trains with Carl, so it always seems silly to me when people say they don't need a coach or trainer. No matter who you are, what you've done or have accomplished, you always stand to learn something.


I think people are more likely to have lessons if they are beginners, if they are at a top level and have access to people who are also at the top level in their discipline, or if they live somewhere their discipline is popular enough to have good coaches to choose from.

Someone who plays in the symphony orchestra in the city is not going to take lessons from a small town, local violin teacher. Those lessons would not be helpful. Charlotte Dujardin is not going to train with any of our local dressage instructors. It would not help her because she is already beyond that level. So if she didn't have access to world class teachers, she probably would not take lessons either. 

That's what I've found with many who don't take lessons. They are better riders and trainers already than the people they have access to locally. Some will drive a few hours for an occasional lesson, but that's quite a commitment if you don't have big aspirations. It's not that people don't want to learn more, but they must be self taught due to the fact that no one is around who can teach them. I've wasted money a couple of times on lessons where the instructor couldn't tell me anything I didn't already know. If you've passed all the local college level math classes, it doesn't help to have someone explain basic algebra to you.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Bsms, no one is saying you have to take lessons to enjoy your horse, as long as you enjoy riding and enjoy your horse, who gives a fat rat's behind? I took lessons as a kid because my friend did and I went with her. I took lessons as a teenager because I worked at a boarding/training/trail riding facility and I had to take instruction if I wanted to help train horses. As an adult I kept on taking lessons because I show and I want to be the best I can be and for a while I trained horses for the public, so I certainly needed eyes on the ground to help me out. I have no problem looking for help, I have even hauled a client's horse to another trainer to get her to help me out with a training issue.
Nothing wrong with lessons, do you tell your kids or grandkids they don't need school because they can get better education just by living life?


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

gottatrot said:


> I think people are more likely to have lessons if they are beginners, if they are at a top level and have access to people who are also at the top level in their discipline, or if they live somewhere their discipline is popular enough to have good coaches to choose from.
> 
> Someone who plays in the symphony orchestra in the city is not going to take lessons from a small town, local violin teacher. Those lessons would not be helpful. Charlotte Dujardin is not going to train with any of our local dressage instructors. It would not help her because she is already beyond that level. So if she didn't have access to world class teachers, she probably would not take lessons either.
> 
> That's what I've found with many who don't take lessons. They are better riders and trainers already than the people they have access to locally. Some will drive a few hours for an occasional lesson, but that's quite a commitment if you don't have big aspirations. It's not that people don't want to learn more, but they must be self taught due to the fact that no one is around who can teach them. I've wasted money a couple of times on lessons where the instructor couldn't tell me anything I didn't already know. If you've passed all the local college level math classes, it doesn't help to have someone explain basic algebra to you.


Certainly an exception rather than the rule. A professional rider lives around their coaches or has access to them. 

There is also online coaching from some top trainers. If your 'better than all of your local trainers' which is most likely not true, there are other options.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> Someone who plays in the symphony orchestra in the city is not going to take lessons from a small town, local violin teacher. Those lessons would not be helpful. Charlotte Dujardin is not going to train with any of our local dressage instructors. It would not help her because she is already beyond that level. So if she didn't have access to world class teachers, she probably would not take lessons either.


I'm willing to entertain that idea. Especially since I still consider myself a beginner or semi-beginner. But I'm not sure that's the case for bsms. 

And trust me, it doesn't get much more small town that where I live. We make small town USA look like Las Vegas. Yet there are a good half-dozen semi-professional or professional riding instructors. Oh, there are some bad ones. I know, I think I met every single one when my daughter was learning. She started with an eventer who was a great instructor, but quickly passed my 6 year old daughter to a girl who wasn't old enough to drive (literally, her parents had to drive her to the barn). She was nice, but not equipped to coach a child. After a couple of nasty falls, we moved on to the Western barn where we eventually leased a horse because the instructor kept saying that it was the only way my daughter would ever improve her riding. At the ripe old age of 7. When I told her my daughter was not going to be showing anytime soon, the instructor started cancelling classes. Or we would show up and someone would have taken my daughter's spot. We took a break. Tried again a few months later where my daughter rode this huge Friesian. The pressure to lease came back. Then, the barn drama started... it's way too long a story involving a common law couple, kids and a will, but when guys started showing up at the barn drunk and swearing they were going to take everything, we had to leave. 

You'd think that by now I would have said geez, I guess lessons just aren't for us. But no, I persisted. Tried a jumper coach who had a big fancy facility with big warmbloods, and a big price tag to boot. She pushed my daughter so hard, my daughter was crying by the end of the second lesson from the fear and anxiety of this person telling her to do more, go faster, when she just wasn't ready. Tried a dressage coach who had some pretty unconventional ideas and just really rubbed us both the wrong way. Then another Western barn owned by a friend. It was ok, but he wasn't really gifted in the teaching department and my daughter wasn't showing real improvement or looking forward to lessons. But lo and behold, we found out there was an English instructor that taught lessons at that barn too, so we signed up. That's how we found our current coach. We have been with her for over 3 years and both my daughter and I love her. She also happens to be the only certified coach in the area. She travels to all the other barns - including the pricey, warmblood-filled jumper stable with the big price tag - to test the riders so they can do their rider levels. Because she's the only one who can. She's trained many riders who have gone on to higher level jumping, yet is just as good with a rank beginner adult as she is with a perfectly fit upper-level jumper. She pushes hard, but also tells you when you get it right. Despite the fact that she expects a lot (and I'm really, really sore after each lesson), you want to keep going. Because you crave that moment when you finally get it. Under her, my daughter has gone to awkwardly posting the trot and fearing the canter to jumping a course, cantering bareback, and being able to ride the more difficult horses. 

So yeah, I could have said I guess lessons just aren't for us, or geez, there are no good coaches where I live. But because we persisted, we are now reaping the benefits. And those other coaches? They taught us a lot. Mostly about what NOT to do. Now my daughter wants to teach riding lessons someday and she has a perfect role model!


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> I think people are more likely to have lessons if they are beginners, if they are at a top level and have access to people who are also at the top level in their discipline, or if they live somewhere their discipline is popular enough to have good coaches to choose from.
> 
> Someone who plays in the symphony orchestra in the city is not going to take lessons from a small town, local violin teacher. Those lessons would not be helpful. Charlotte Dujardin is not going to train with any of our local dressage instructors. It would not help her because she is already beyond that level. So if she didn't have access to world class teachers, she probably would not take lessons either.
> 
> That's what I've found with many who don't take lessons. They are better riders and trainers already than the people they have access to locally. Some will drive a few hours for an occasional lesson, but that's quite a commitment if you don't have big aspirations. It's not that people don't want to learn more, but they must be self taught due to the fact that no one is around who can teach them. I've wasted money a couple of times on lessons where the instructor couldn't tell me anything I didn't already know. If you've passed all the local college level math classes, it doesn't help to have someone explain basic algebra to you.


I'm sure charlotte wouldn't take lessons from someone below her now but I bet she took lessons from someone who at the time was above her.


I'm not sure where you're from but the people I see who have never had a lesson in their life are hanging on the horses mouth, using all sorts of equipment, bouncing all over the place and taking annoying pictures of inappropriate places to show how balanced they are when realistically they're tilting at a strange angle. 


A good coach will teach you invaluable lessons. People didn't get to the Olympics by not taking lessons.


In saying that if people don't want lessons I wouldn't force them to have them.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

If you're being coached below the level you believe you are, it's also very likely you are riding below your perceived level. I've found that a lot. Someone tells me he/she is level x but he/she showing me riding that is several levels below x and I have to coach the rider where he/she is, not where he/she believes she is. Everybody gets sloppy without eyes on the ground, myself included. Before you disregard someone, make sure you aren't thinking more of your riding than is there.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

palogal said:


> If you're being coached below the level you believe you are, it's also very likely you are riding below your perceived level. I've found that a lot. Someone tells me he/she is level x but he/she showing me riding that is several levels below x and I have to coach the rider where he/she is, not where he/she believes she is. Everybody gets sloppy without eyes on the ground, myself included. Before you disregard someone, make sure you aren't thinking more of your riding than is there.


This made me chuckle. There is zero chance of me ever thinking I'm a better rider than I really am, but I have encountered this attitude many times in my professional life. I'm also a teacher and am always blown away by students who overestimate their abilities and are in shock when they see the grades I give them. I don't know if it's because of a system that gives everyone a trophy, but while it's good to be confident, they take it to an extreme sometimes. In a society where we have a pretty broad access to information of all sorts, I think some people have forgotten that reading something on the Internet does not make you an expert in the field. And also, that we still need experts. We still need people who have dedicated their lives to being the best at something, and who continue to push the limits of research in all fields. Sadly, this does not seem like something that our society considers valuable anymore.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> I think people are more likely to have lessons if they are beginners, if they are at a top level and have access to people who are also at the top level in their discipline, or if they live somewhere their discipline is popular enough to have good coaches to choose from.
> 
> Someone who plays in the symphony orchestra in the city is not going to take lessons from a small town, local violin teacher. Those lessons would not be helpful. Charlotte Dujardin is not going to train with any of our local dressage instructors. It would not help her because she is already beyond that level. So if she didn't have access to world class teachers, she probably would not take lessons either.
> 
> That's what I've found with many who don't take lessons. They are better riders and trainers already than the people they have access to locally. Some will drive a few hours for an occasional lesson, but that's quite a commitment if you don't have big aspirations. It's not that people don't want to learn more, but they must be self taught due to the fact that no one is around who can teach them. I've wasted money a couple of times on lessons where the instructor couldn't tell me anything I didn't already know. If you've passed all the local college level math classes, it doesn't help to have someone explain basic algebra to you.


A lot of top level people are in training, no they definitely seek someone above or at their level for coaching but they have eyes on the ground. My trainer's trainer who I sometimes I clinic with goes to Germany to train with Hubertus Schmidt. And one of my trainers goes down to Florida to train over winter, my other trainer continues her education by getting into judging and clinicing, etc. I will never have the money to do what they do but I benefit from them seeking out educational opportunities and continuing to learn and expand their knowledge base. Charlotte trains with Carl who is more experienced and knowledgeable than she is. Laura Graves trains with Debbie McDonald and Robert Dover. Most everyone at the top has a coach. The olympic riders all have coaches.

But I definitely understand not wanting to pay for a trainer who is a useless coach or creating problems or in general isn't good because unfortunately there are plenty of bad trainers out there. I've watched lessons where it surprised me someone would pay anything for the training because the trainer taught them nothing but tells them how great they are and apparently the students like their ego stroked. It's more like go ride this line and gives no advice or how to improve or how to improve the quality of the movement, gaits or anything. It's without system or structure. Or I've seen several trainers who while they have success just make the horses tense, agitated and angry and are very unfair to both horse and rider. I watched a clinician where the whole time was pressure, pressure, pressure and the horse didn't really learn anything but a fear reaction to the rider's aids because it was just pull, pull, pull, fight, fight, fight, smack, smack, smack, kick, kick, kick. With no negotiation or conversation. It was painful to watch then when the horses acted out and defended itself they blamed the horse! Or said the horse is bad when all they was smack it around and not teach it anything. How does smacking them around mean anything to a horse, being firm and strict has it's place but when it's for no reason other than the rider's own ignorance and lack of skill blaming the horse, it's hard to watch. What does it teach the horse other than if I do this I get smacked, if I dont do this I get smacked but is never shown what is expected or encouraged. Being told you're wrong all the time doesnt teach you how to do it right. I've had to re-train horses from those kind of trainers and it's not fun. I have one when I started with him if I did anything to say hey, no please do this instead he'd just stand on his hind legs because someone had pushed him to the point where he thought rearing was his only option to be heard. He was VERY defensive and had no trust in the rider. People thought he was a bad horse but he wasn't. He was just highly intelligent and needed to be ridden with respect and patience. He was very rough for awhile but lots of patience, encouragement and also being very clear in what's expected and he has come around. For a while I had to get off and teach him what I wanted from the ground because it was too dangerous in the saddle, then I'd get on and ask under saddle. I didn't feel safe asking for canter from him for a while because he'd rear vertical. He'd been bullied so much that all he did was resist, not trust or feel confident in the rider and was entirely defensive of himself. Now he's still quirky but ridable. He doesn't really spook anymore, he turns to me. I can ride him through nervousness. I can negotiate with him and he's receptive to being shown and encouraged but needs it to be very clear when he's naughty that-that isnt acceptable. Clear expectation and quick reward.

I also understand that. It's part of why I won't go back to where I'm from. Anytime I've looked I've not found a single trainer I'd want to train with, I don't have the money to travel extensively. What "level" someone rides at
is not as much a reflection as how they ride. I've seen riders who show 1st level that are more skillful than riders I've seen show PSG. Not always but I've seen riders who show at the FEI levels that I do not think are good riders or people I'd ever train with because they only know how to bully and manipulate some horses into complacency and obedience but never bother to have a conversation with the horse or understand or listen to them. Riding is constant communication, not a dictatorship. I've seen horses dumped by those types of trainers written off as crazy or "bad" horses but then you get them under a rider who is sympathetic, encouraging and has the conversation with them, to educate them, rather than manipulate them through movements and the horse prospers, moves 10x better and is confident/happy in their work. A person I know got a horse who was imported from Germany and was probably a 40k horse for 5k because she'd been run into the ground and written off as damaged and she's quirky/hot but she is very ridable, willing, and eager to please.

My point being who you train with matters and how they ride/develop horses. A lesson for lessons sake is not always a benefit. But that's why a lot of us went the hard road of training with bad instructors and learning what not to do before coming across a good one and some areas don't really have any qualified or real trainers, just people who said I think I want to be a trainer and started teaching which is unfortunate but I've seen some trainers with lots of students who honestly shouldn't be a trainer. They have their bronze/silver medal but are terrible riders who truly know so little they don't even realize they don't know what they think they do and are unwilling to learn. I always found the most arrogant people usually know the least.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> A lot of top level people are in training, no they definitely seek someone above or at their level for coaching but they have eyes on the ground. My trainer's trainer who I sometimes I clinic with goes to Germany to train with Hubertus Schmidt. And one of my trainers goes down to Florida to train over winter, my other trainer continues her education by getting into judging and clinicing, etc. I will never have the money to do what they do but I benefit from them seeking out educational opportunities and continuing to learn and expand their knowledge base...
> ...My point being who you train with matters and how they ride/develop horses. *A lesson for lessons sake is not always a benefit. But that's why a lot of us went the hard road of training with bad instructors and learning what not to do before coming across a good one and some areas don't really have any qualified or real trainers, just people who said I think I want to be a trainer and started teaching* which is unfortunate but I've seen some trainers with lots of students who honestly shouldn't be a trainer. They have their bronze/silver medal but are terrible riders who truly know so little they don't even realize they don't know what they think they do and are unwilling to learn. I always found the most arrogant people usually know the least.


So true.
@Acadianartist, you might be in a rural area, but it sounds like you have a lot of disciplines and instructors to choose from. For instance, if I want to improve my jumping there are no lessons available within a two hour drive. That was my point with beginners being more likely to take lessons, because in my area you can find beginner lessons in several disciplines for a reasonable price, but nothing more advanced. Gaming is popular here, so I could learn how to barrel race - if I were interested and also my horse was suitable (neither is the case). There are some people who trailer their horses a couple hours each way for lessons each week, but that gets quite expensive. 

As @DanteDressageNerd says, sometimes you get more benefit from unpaid educated eyes on the ground or video taping your own ride than having someone who is a so-called trainer sending you around a ring. Many times I'd rather have a rider I admire who is also a friend watching and giving me tips. Some people I ride with are not currently giving lessons, but have in the past and were better instructors than some I've had lessons with. Their input is often very beneficial.

Something I expect is that a trainer will be a better rider than I am or at least better at some aspect of riding. (An exception is an older ex-pro or someone who has been injured and can no longer ride at their prior level but teaches from the ground). I want them to be able to ride their horse better than I can (or have a history of doing so), to ride my horse better or at least as well as I can, and also to be able to explain to me how to teach my horse and make improvements in my riding. If the person can't ride their own horse as well as I can, or can't ride my horse or tell me how to improve, then lessons from that person will not help me at all.

I think it's a really bad sign when someone says they can't explain how to accomplish something and also won't show you how to do it on the horse, or won't get on the horse.
I'm not a fan of the "silent" lesson. I've had those, where you ride around and the instructor says, "Yes, yes. Like that. You've got it." Then they go out and eat a sandwich or start doing chores. I'm not spending my money just to exercise the horse!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> Riding is constant communication, not a dictatorship. I've seen horses dumped by those types of trainers written off as crazy or "bad" horses but then you get them under a rider who is sympathetic, encouraging and has the conversation with them, to educate them, rather than manipulate them through movements and the horse prospers, moves 10x better and is confident/happy in their work. A person I know got a horse who was imported from Germany and was probably a 40k horse for 5k because she'd been run into the ground and written off as damaged and she's quirky/hot but she is very ridable, willing, and eager to please.


And THIS ^^^ is one of the most important things my coach has taught me. We were watching the kids ride one day, and one of the horses was really acting out. I made a crack about how she was "acting crazy" that day. I think that's the only time my coach was a bit sharp with me. She said "No, she's not acting crazy. XXX just needs to do a better job asking the horse for what she wants." She patiently told the young rider, for the 4th time, to sit back deeply, relax, stop pulling on the horse's mouth and ask again, calmly. Within a few minutes, once the rider released the tension and sat back in the saddle, the same horse was relaxed, was reaching down into the bit, moving forward at a good pace (not too fast, not too slow) and had stopped acting out. The coach turned to me and said "See?". I like that every moment is a teaching moment for her. Some horses are definitely harder to ride, and this time of year, mares can be off on some days. But she teaches her students that a) it's never the horse's fault. b) you need to provide release once the horse gives a small indication of cooperating. If you just keep yanking and kicking, there is no motivation for the horse to want to work with you. c) the power is in your hands. There's no such thing as "I can't" because there's always another way you can do things. Being taught by her is empowering, and highly motivating because you're never stuck. If something doesn't work, she'll try something else. She knows how to do things correctly, and can help you achieve that, but she's also a great problem-solver. 

And she organizes and attends clinics regularly. She never stops learning. This winter, she even organized seminars with a sports psychologist and a performance nutritionist. I have to say, I initially thought they would be a waste of time. They were not! I learned so much!


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

@*bsms* you definitely took it way out of context. :lol: Way out of left field with that one. I second @Tihannah. She was just saying that not every horse can benefit from a rider that doesn't 'take charge'. For example, my lease horse Redz needs a strong rider, he likes having a purpose. 

I agree!  This is great encouragement for people who are struggling or feeling discouraged. Lessons are pretty awesome, if you have a good instructor & one that motivates you.

I am also very fortunate to have such a good trainer, one that I've had for years. We always do something new, and while I ride 4-5x a week WITHOUT a trainer (I only take lessons 1x a week), when I have my lesson it makes a huge difference. Then I know what I have to work on during the rest of the week when I ride. :smile: 
Redz needs a strong, confident rider & one who takes control. That's where I come in! 

There is always something new to work on/learn. And it's pretty fun to have someone else see you ride, & see things you can't!

I also love riding 'challenging' horses. It definitely helps you learn, & become a better rider!

Well-said!


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I have ridden my entire life. Worked at a training barn in college. Broke horses in high school and college and I don't take lessons. BUT - my husband does - from a local barn with a very high caliber trainer. And I learn from his lessons too. We are "just" trail riders but do expect our horses to have some "buttons" I enjoy his lessons and video a lot of them for his benefit and for mine. There is always something to be learned.
@Acadianartist I smiled when I read your post. I am so very happy for you and for Kodak. A confident rider helps make a confident horse. I am definitely interested in more posts about your lessons and advancements.

For me honestly I use this forum as a learning tool. So many on here ride at a level I will never achieve - just a few that come to mind @Tazzie. @DanteDressageNerd @PhantomHorse but I love their posts and I google terms and watch youtube videos because I am curious to learn more. 

I hope that my horse benefits even a little from my curiosity. 

Keep up the good work!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

carshon said:


> I have ridden my entire life. Worked at a training barn in college. Broke horses in high school and college and I don't take lessons. BUT - my husband does - from a local barn with a very high caliber trainer. And I learn from his lessons too. We are "just" trail riders but do expect our horses to have some "buttons" I enjoy his lessons and video a lot of them for his benefit and for mine. There is always something to be learned.
> @*Acadianartist* I smiled when I read your post. I am so very happy for you and for Kodak. A confident rider helps make a confident horse. I am definitely interested in more posts about your lessons and advancements.
> 
> For me honestly I use this forum as a learning tool. So many on here ride at a level I will never achieve - just a few that come to mind @*Tazzie* . @*DanteDressageNerd* @*PhantomHorse* but I love their posts and I google terms and watch youtube videos because I am curious to learn more.
> ...


Thanks Carshon! Kodak and I have come a long way. And she is part of the reason I take lessons. If I left the decision-making up to her, we'd be up poop creek! She's a good girl, don't get me wrong, but she definitely needs a leader. She will do what I ask and try her best, but that means I have a very big responsibility to take care of her and ride her to the best of my ability. I will never be a great rider, but if I can at least be a solid, confident rider, then we both benefit. I would not be able to accomplish that on my own. 

And I agree, this forum has been tremendously helpful for me too! As great as my coach is (in my eyes), she's incredibly busy so I can't bug her for every little thing. This is a great sounding board to work through things as a rider, but also, as a horse owner. It's certainly given me the confidence to take on the unexpected challenges that Kodak brought into my life as a relative newbie! We still have a long way to go, but what we've accomplished in less than a year gives me the confidence that we can do this.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Lots of good posts in this thread. 

Here's an example (one of many to choose from) of why I take lessons. This little hint was not from my regular instructor but from a saddle fitter who is also trains dressage horses. She was just watching me to see if my saddle still fit my horse, and she said "you're riding so crooked I'm wondering whether I should shim your saddle to keep your horse from getting sore." She showed me a video clip she had just made of me going directly away from her. It was subtle -- but she works in subtleties. She told me to think of "making your femur longer" and to monitor to make sure my saddle wasn't slipping slightly to the side. 

I have been working on this ever since, and I am pretty sure I have improved in that area, although I do not yet have the muscle memory I need. 

She also told me I should hold my reins "like holding a butterfly". That one metaphor suddenly relaxed my elbows and I felt my horse relax her neck. Wow! 

To me, this kind of observation is priceless. I started taking lessons 18 months ago and I think I am twice the rider I was. I love my lessons!

In BSM's defense, though, I also love trail riding alone, when I feel that my horse and I are (nearly) equal partners in an adventure. This is a purer joy.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

*MODERATOR'S NOTE*

*We, as mods, have noticed that this thread may arouse some strong feelings. Just being proactive before problems occur: please notice that it's OK that the topics argue, but it's not OK to go to the personal level against a co-member. Disagreeing is all welcome but it must be done in polite manner.

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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

^^^ Who knew that a post about how much I love my riding lessons could stir up such controversy!


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> palogal said:
> 
> 
> > If you're being coached below the level you believe you are, it's also very likely you are riding below your perceived level. I've found that a lot. Someone tells me he/she is level x but he/she showing me riding that is several levels below x and I have to coach the rider where he/she is, not where he/she believes she is. Everybody gets sloppy without eyes on the ground, myself included. Before you disregard someone, make sure you aren't thinking more of your riding than is there.
> ...


I wasn't specifically referring to you, sorry if you took it that way. Not my intention. I just find a lot of people that go through 5-6 " incompetent instructors" are really just not liking what they hear from anyone. Riding isn't an armchair sport and there's no hiding the bad habits. It goes back to the idea that if everyone else is a problem, the problem is probably you. Again, not you specifically.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

palogal said:


> I wasn't specifically referring to you, sorry if you took it that way. Not my intention. I just find a lot of people that go through 5-6 " incompetent instructors" are really just not liking what they hear from anyone. Riding isn't an armchair sport and there's no hiding the bad habits. It goes back to the idea that if everyone else is a problem, the problem is probably you. Again, not you specifically.


Haha, no worries Palogal! I did not that that personally at all. I completely understand what you're saying and agree. There are, however, some pretty bad coaches out there! For us (meaning, my daughter because I didn't take lessons from any of the coaches we went through except the one we have now), it was also about a child figuring out which discipline was right for her. Some of the coaches were good, but not appropriate for a child her age. Or not interested in coaching someone who wasn't intending to show. Or just plain bad. I think it's ok, and normal to try different coaches until you find the right fit. But to say they're ALL bad is probably indicative of a lack of desire to learn.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Unfortunately there do seem to be more than a few incompetent trainers out there at all levels and for people just starting out that is a real minefield. If you don't know or aren't sure what's correct then you have no way of knowing if 'they're doing it right'
I've had lessons and watched lessons where way too many instructors were doing nothing at all to correct their students when they clearly did need correcting so I can see why some might think its not worth the effort
I did the (UK) BHS teaching courses and did instructing as a job for some years so not at all 'anti' lessons.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Here is how I see taking lessons. I suppose if I have a problem with a horse I could figure it out for myself which might take lord knows how long or, I can get the opinion of someone else and resolve the problem much more quickly.

Because riding is a partnership, an issue for one becomes an issue for both. An unresolved problem makes for conflict, builds possible resentment and erodes his trust in me if I am confusing him, doing something inadvertently wrong and then laying blame for failure at his feet ("he's being a turd"). I’d like to avoid repeating that situation as it is unfair.

Eyes on the ground afford both of us a fresh perspective and minimize the headbutting. Often times it doesn’t require some high level professional to pick up on mistakes in timing a cue or release or to note that perhaps my weight in my seat at a particular time (western)is in conflict with the other cues and sending conflicting signals; all I need is an experienced set of eyes. The person does not need to actually be a fabulous winning show rider, they just have to know what is correct and have a good eye for detail. 

If anything, I find being able to fix an issue more quickly builds trust and confidence for us both because we are constantly developing good habits to set each other up for success rather than making mistake after mistake without realizing why it is happening. It has a way of eroding both of our confidences. A lesson together gives us an opportunity for both of us to shake the tree and see what falls out. Often times it can resolve a little problem that we had out on the trails before it turns into a bigger one in an emergency situation where that skill suddenly becomes very important. 

Lessons are another tool to help build a partnership and your confidence in one another. If you can, it makes sense to make use of that tool.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

reading about all your lessons ( all of you guys) makes me feel envious. I am not in a place to take lessons, but that doesn't mean I can't PUT myself in a place to do so. h m m . . . miss those lessons.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

To me, my lessons are like continuing education. I want to know more, so I take lessons. I will never know all, or even a lot, but the instruction keeps my mind limber, while the riding keeps my body limber. Oh, and it is humbling when your instructor is 25 f*&$/ years younger than you. Does make one slap that old ego at the door.

I am old and both need daily limbering exercises daily...lolol

When you find a good coach, how is honest about you riding abilities, or lack thereof, and you get honest praise for a job well done. Man, that is priceless. Even to an old lady!

And if you go to a show and place and get a ribbon to show for your effort, it is like that end of year bonus check from work. Well deserved.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> ^^^ Who knew that a post about how much I love my riding lessons could stir up such controversy!


Two horse people, three opinions, as they say.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

I enjoy my lessons, and I plan on taking more as time goes on. I'm now looking down the barrel of my first riding lesson since I was a college student and I'm terribly excited. My lease horse rides and drives, and I'll be using him for both. 

Lessons to me give us a baseline, as well as guidance towards our goals. It's possible to figure it out on your own, but that tends to take a lot longer and be full of a lot more mistakes and mishaps than there would be if you gave yourself a strong foundation. It's worth the money and the time spent, in my opinion.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> ^^^ Who knew that a post about how much I love my riding lessons could stir up such controversy!


No kidding. :eek_color: Honestly this is one reason I don't start my own threads much anymore...pretty much ANYTHING turns into a controversy. 

But, I'm glad you posted! I think it's great for people to read what a positive experience lessons can be.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

I've said this in the forum before, though perhaps not in the English riding section. But I'm one who, in over 50 years in the saddle, has never had a formal lesson. I got "coaching" as a teen in the 4-H club. What I learned on my own was how to stay on board during all manner of horsey shenanigans. What I learned from the coaching was how to ride. 

I can understand BSMS point about needing to be creative when faced with real obstacles on a wilderness trail. That takes athleticism and balance. You may get that during arena lessons. I'm thinking doing all manner of contortions while riding stirrup less. But, I don't think that is a focus of many riding lessons.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I used to take lessons. I have NEVER taken a lesson but what I didn't learn something. it might have been just how to not scream at the instructor when they totally got my goat, or, it might by a minute change in how I hold the rein. but, I took something away.

when I pay to audit a clinic, and the clinician says something that rings new and true to me, I say to myself, " The clinic just paid for itself!" . then, if I learn more, . . . well, . . . it's all gravy after that!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> I used to take lessons. I have NEVER taken a lesson but what I didn't learn something. it might have been just how to not scream at the instructor when they totally got my goat, or, it might by a minute change in how I hold the rein. but, I took something away.
> 
> when I pay to audit a clinic, and the clinician says something that rings new and true to me, I say to myself, " The clinic just paid for itself!" . then, if I learn more, . . . well, . . . it's all gravy after that!


My daughter will be doing a clinic or two with Harley this summer and I hope to audit them with her! 

Sadly, despite my enthousiasm about lessons, I have to tell you all that I am going to have to put them on hold for now. I'm truly disappointed, but I guess I can pick them up again later. See, we just found out my daughter needs braces. 7500$ and my insurance only covers 2000$. There goes my dream of a horse trailer, and we had to trim our budget all around. This means my daughter gets to keep up with her lessons, because both our kids are involved in sports and this is something we want to encourage. They're only young once. Me, I've got time. I'm not going to show, like my daughter will. We can save 140$ a month by cutting out my lessons, so for the time being, that's just how it's going to have to be. 

I will still go watch my daughter ride and hopefully will learn a thing or two. The ice is melting fast at home (though it's a sloppy mess) so I will be able to ride Kodak again very soon. I'll just have to do what I can on my own until these braces are paid for. Sigh.... sometimes it sucks to be a parent! At least I got to improve my riding significantly with just a few lessons and can now apply what I've learned at home.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> I've watched lessons where it surprised me someone would pay anything for the training because the trainer taught them nothing but tells them how great they are and apparently the students like their ego stroked. It's more like go ride this line and gives no advice or how to improve or how to improve the quality of the movement, gaits or anything.


So much of this.

Sometimes I can get discouraged with my lessons when I feel like I'm not progressing enough. My jumping lessons will often be x rails and small 2'3" fences. Often we are just cantering poles. I've been jumping for a long time and have jumping much higher than that in the past with different coaches. At one point my yearly resolution was to jump a foot higher every year. Lol.

When riding my wb dressage, it's even worse. I've had lessons where I do nothing but walk on a long rein. I'm hardly able to trot a circle correctly where as before with different instructors we were schooling first.

But my current trainer has to undo a lot of bad habits and doesn't deal in "good enough"s. I might use my inside rein a touch too much turning to a fence. Not acceptable, even though we made it over. I might have moved an inch at the fence. Not acceptable. My leg might be holding a bit of tension. We're going back to the walk to fix that. My elbows may not be even, or leg isn't quite flat.

So on ocassion I can get discouraged that I'm being 'held back'. But then I remind myself it's all worth it in the end. While I'm not doing 3' courses, I can do all my transitions from my breathing, I can sit my wb's big trot while swinging my legs, and I can get my horses to follow the rein to the floor and stretch over their backs at all gaits.

I'll take that over the instant gratification. It just means that when I am finally allowed to do more advanced things, it means I have really been improving, not just passed a time barrier.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> But I definitely understand not wanting to pay for a trainer who is a useless coach or creating problems or in general isn't good because unfortunately there are plenty of bad trainers out there. I've watched lessons where it surprised me someone would pay anything for the training because the trainer taught them nothing but tells them how great they are and apparently the students like their ego stroked. It's more like go ride this line and gives no advice or how to improve or how to improve the quality of the movement, gaits or anything. It's without system or structure. Or I've seen several trainers who while they have success just make the horses tense, agitated and angry and are very unfair to both horse and rider. I watched a clinician where the whole time was pressure, pressure, pressure and the horse didn't really learn anything but a fear reaction to the rider's aids because it was just pull, pull, pull, fight, fight, fight, smack, smack, smack, kick, kick, kick. With no negotiation or conversation. It was painful to watch then when the horses acted out and defended itself they blamed the horse! Or said the horse is bad when all they was smack it around and not teach it anything.
> 
> I also understand that. It's part of why I won't go back to where I'm from. Anytime I've looked I've not found a single trainer I'd want to train with, I don't have the money to travel extensively. What "level" someone rides at
> is not as much a reflection as how they ride. I've seen riders who show 1st level that are more skillful than riders I've seen show PSG. Not always but I've seen riders who show at the FEI levels that I do not think are good riders or people I'd ever train with because they only know how to bully and manipulate some horses into complacency and obedience but never bother to have a conversation with the horse or understand or listen to them.
> I always found the most arrogant people usually know the least.


Dante you always speak with so much common sense - we might disagree sometimes, maybe 5% of the time, but even then I have the utmost respect for your opinion 
I've quoted some of your post because on this we agree 100%. Finding a good trainer isn't as simple as it sounds and just as there are lots of riders who think they're better than they are there are just as many trainers who the same can be said of and they do tend to be more arrogant than the real top class trainers.
Being taught the wrong way can be as bad as not having any training at all because its really difficult to 'unlearn' those incorrect things if they've been drilled into you by someone you thought you was 'good'.
I think its great that people are finding good trainers, enjoying their learning experiences and setting themselves goals

Acadian I'm sorry that the braces have had to put your plans on hold but I'm sure your daughter will thank you for doing it when she's old enough to appreciate it. I thought Canada had a similar medical and dental scheme to the UK where Orthodontic treatment is still free for under 18's - though even private treatment would average at around £3000 and we think that's extortionate!!!.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Acadian I'm sorry that the braces have had to put your plans on hold but I'm sure your daughter will thank you for doing it when she's old enough to appreciate it. I thought Canada had a similar medical and dental scheme to the UK where Orthodontic treatment is still free for under 18's - though even private treatment would average at around £3000 and we think that's extortionate!!!.


The lessons are just on hold... there will be time after the braces are paid for.

Sadly, our medicare system does not cover dental or orthodontic work. Those of us with additional insurance have plans that cover part of those costs, and mine is actually a pretty generous plan, but still. we now have to find the rest of that money... or I could just let my daughter have crooked teeth.... :think::think::think: Or maybe I can watch a Youtube video and do DIY braces!!!


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> The lessons are just on hold... there will be time after the braces are paid for.
> 
> Sadly, our medicare system does not cover dental or orthodontic work. Those of us with additional insurance have plans that cover part of those costs, and mine is actually a pretty generous plan, but still. we now have to find the rest of that money... or I could just let my daughter have crooked teeth.... :think::think::think: Or maybe I can watch a Youtube video and do DIY braces!!!


Yes, figure out DIY braces, then tell me how because I'll be in the same boat in a few years. $7500 is super expensive! I think they're around $5000 here but maybe that's because of the value of the dollar/exchange. I'm sorry about your lessons, but I understand completely. I'm the same. My kids are only with me for 18 years (I hope LOL). I'm going to give them opportunities while I can. I've already told my son the day he turns 18 I get to buy my own horse because he's going to take over paying for his.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

Jaydee- thank you. I try to be as pragmatic as I can be. I think it's important that everyone doesn't agree all the time, otherwise how do we have discussions and exchanges of ideas? I think we're all here for the love of horses and for the community and sharing of ideas. I know I learn by having to figure out how to articulate what I think about or feel when I ride/work with a horse and discover better and better ways to explain something or listen to what someone else says and think oh maybe that's a better way to look at the situation or I hadn't thought about that or I like how someone phrased that idea.

Horsemanship I think is an all around concept. Having lessons in handling, horsemanship, lunging, etc I think is very helpful to develop a complete-well rounded skill set. Practical, hands on experience, trial and error, getting out and doing things has it's place too. For example as a kid (I grew up in Oregon) I grew up riding out on trails, going up and down mountains, on the beach, etc. I think I learned something I can't explain from those experiences. It helped me when I was eventing in being able to help my horse balance up and down hills, through water and over obstacles. It taught me how to "stick" and skills I can't really put my finger on but I don't think that time was wasted. I think a good balance or riding out on your own, with lessons is very useful because I've also seen people who only ride in lessons and can't seem to ride or think for themselves or assess a situation without someone telling them what to do. You learn in lessons, practicing on your own and figuring things out and riding out.

I learned a ton about contact from Dante and Dev (my mare's older brother) because they're both horses with tricky conformations/necks. Dante was very downhill with a long swan neck (also learned a lot about rhythm from him, in general a whole lot, very tricky ride) and Dev was ewe necked and very one sided coordination wise and in general very awkward to ride. But those are the kinds of horses you learn some very important lessons with and who show you or expand on concepts you never would have learned otherwise, no matter how good an instructor is. Different horses have different lessons to offer and the more different types of horses you ride, the more you realize how unique each horse is. Riding is not a one size fits all scenario, every horse can't be ridden or trained exactly the same. The goals are mostly the same but the approach in getting there is different and some horses take longer to teach than others or you have to go through rough spots or different training phases or they need certain lessons that other horses may not need. All horses do not ride or develop the same way. Correctness isn't always a starting point in each and every ride at every point but it's the goal and what you're developing to have. Ex: Murray (BHSI instructor, international eventer who worked with Christopher Bartle and is also a dressage judge) when I rode Dev for him said not to worry about him getting a bit behind the vertical(it wasn't because of my hands, he lacked strength and ewe necked horses are difficult to develop correctly) and to not let it become a habit but understand that he needs to go through this step to learn to use his back and sit behind and lift in his shoulder and right now he's not strong enough to maintain it and this is a phase though not pretty that he needs to go through, so he learns to use his back. If we are unwilling to go through this step because he gets a little behind then you get him into the ring and the judge says but he's not using his back anyway, so what'd we waste our time doing? Never addressing an issue because the horse isn't 100% correct at that moment but will be when he gains strength/coordination and understanding.

I ask a lot of questions of my trainer(s) and ask for their input, so I can draw from their experience and insight. Each of my trainers has a lot of add. One of mine is incredible at judging prospects and has produced a few upper level horses and ridden to GP and also did upper level jumping. She has a great eye for judging horses that are capable but also things to pay attention to in their temperament,ridability, athleticism, mechanics and a variety of details in conformation, how they move, etc on what will stay sound or develop. She doesn't look as "flash" as much as mechanics and structure on what can be developed and what's realistic and if you develop the horse, how likely will the horse stay sound and what factors should we be mindful of? It's not 100% but it gives a fair idea. Or in general I ask their thoughts on approaching a problem or what I'm feeling and if it appears that way or how to do it better or am I approaching this correctly? And I'm always learning new things, like better ways to ask/prepare a canter transition or better ways to teach shoulder in or haunches in, better way to improve leg yield or in general just constantly adding little details I wouldn't have known without my trainers. I think I told my trainer this week, thank you for kicking my butt and telling me all the things I need to work on and pointing out my faults. If you're not open to hear it and how to improve, how can you get better?

The one thing I notice between people who are setting themselves up for success is their openness to new ideas or their willing to try something new (within reason) or constructive criticism. If you tell someone they're doing something wrong, tell them how to do it better or give them some ideas to do it better. I think the basic point of this thread is being open to learning and new ideas/ways of doing something. Whenever I read or hear someone say yeah but my horse is straight or my horse is doing a, b, c when it's missing a lot of details in it's training, I tend to take a step back and let people be because sometimes people have to learn their own way or sometimes people think they have nothing more to learn and aren't receptive to learning. You can't really teach someone who thinks they know it all. Disclaimer: I'm not talking about anyone here, it's a general thought.

Though I'll say everything I know now, I know there is SO SO much more depth to it that I don't know yet and that keep it interesting and inspires to keep working, keep taking lessons and stay in a program. I think riding and horses in general make you humble and I've found the more I've learned the more I've learned how to take my ego out of it and to be more receptive and let go a little more of my pride because you're always learning, you never know everything. There is always more to learn. For example the training scale, people really don't understand it like they think they do. They dont understand that's it's largely interconnected and for each "rung" there is SO SO much more depth and details that are not included in the scale. The scale is more so a reference point than a "how to" model. I also think "fun" needs to be on the scale too. I think number one the horse has to enjoy their work and sometimes it's not all fun but in general it should be fun for horse and rider, otherwise why do it?


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> The one thing I notice between people who are setting themselves up for success is their openness to new ideas or their willing to try something new (within reason) or constructive criticism. If you tell someone they're doing something wrong, tell them how to do it better or give them some ideas to do it better. I think the basic point of this thread is being open to learning and new ideas/ways of doing something. Whenever I read or hear someone say yeah but my horse is straight or my horse is doing a, b, c when it's missing a lot of details in it's training, I tend to take a step back and let people be because sometimes people have to learn their own way or sometimes people think they have nothing more to learn and aren't receptive to learning. You can't really teach someone who thinks they know it all. Disclaimer: I'm not talking about anyone here, it's a general thought.
> 
> Though I'll say everything I know now, I know there is SO SO much more depth to it that I don't know yet and that keep it interesting and inspires to keep working, keep taking lessons and stay in a program. I think riding and horses in general make you humble and I've found the more I've learned the more I've learned how to take my ego out of it and to be more receptive and let go a little more of my pride because you're always learning, you never know everything. There is always more to learn.


THIS ^^^^ x 10!

Again, not point fingers, but there are people who are just not open to taking a hard look at themselves with the idea that there is ALWAYS something to improve. Those people close themselves off to learning, and it's pointless to try to teach them. Yes, it's hard to be criticized, especially by people who don't mince words (my coach can be that way), and especially when you're an adult who has come a pretty long way in life and is generally confident. But I'd rather have a coach who is direct and doesn't try to sugar-coat everything. I don't pay her to tell me I'm a good rider, I'm paying her to make me a better rider!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Jan1975 said:


> Yes, figure out DIY braces, then tell me how because I'll be in the same boat in a few years. $7500 is super expensive! I think they're around $5000 here but maybe that's because of the value of the dollar/exchange. I'm sorry about your lessons, but I understand completely. I'm the same. My kids are only with me for 18 years (I hope LOL). I'm going to give them opportunities while I can. I've already told my son the day he turns 18 I get to buy my own horse because he's going to take over paying for his.


OMG, there actually are DIY braces videos! 




Speaking of people who think they don't need a professional. I mean, what could possibly go wrong...


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> OMG, there actually are DIY braces videos! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpZKF72qvW8 :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Speaking of people who think they don't need a professional. I mean, what could possibly go wrong...


You try it first. 

And I agree about being open minded...there's ALWAYS room to improve. Top athletes all have coaches. Of course, you can thoroughly enjoy your horse without lessons, and if that's your preference, that's totally fine! I could care less if someone else takes lessons or not. Except you, AA. I want you to take lessons, so make those DIY braces. LOL!


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Avna said:


> Two horse people, three opinions, as they say.


That is funny, right there!


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

@Acadianartist I hear you on the braces. We paid for 3 different sets - it was like having another car payment!

After our son's came off (2 years of braces) the ortho told us that his jaw needed to be broken in 2 places and reset and wired shut so that it would align correctly - so basically 2 years of braces and thousands of dollars later we got NOTHING!

Speaking of lessons. Hubbies is tomorrow. ANd we are both looking forward to it.


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

I can't even imagine how much money my parents forked out for braces. Both my brother & I needed them...but I am SO glad they did it. I can't even imagine what kind of 'monster face' I'd have with out them! And to this day I take good care of my teeth - after the amount of money that went in to them...I could only imagine how angry my mom would be! 

As for lessons, I 100% agree with everything you stated @Acadianartist. I started taking lessons again after quite a long hiatus...and I think it is the best thing I ever did. I pay an exorbitant price for them ($220 for 4), but it has been worth every penny. I know I will never be an olympic calibre rider, but I like learning more. Also, I want my horses to be the best they can be...and working with my instructor/trainer has made wonderful improvements in both them & I. 

I really hope it isn't long before you can start taking lessons again. In the meantime, it sounds like you've learned a lot that you can practice at home (and maybe squeeze the odd lesson in when you can???)


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Jan1975 said:


> No kidding. :eek_color: Honestly this is one reason I don't start my own threads much anymore...pretty much ANYTHING turns into a controversy.
> 
> But, I'm glad you posted! I think it's great for people to read what a positive experience lessons can be.


I agree. What I've decided to do is change my mind set and not worry about the controversy. Anyone can have a different opinion and not be right or wrong. Besides, it's interesting to go back and read what everyone has to say and that is a learning experience in itself.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

carshon said:


> @*Acadianartist* I hear you on the braces. We paid for 3 different sets - it was like having another car payment!
> 
> After our son's came off (2 years of braces) the ortho told us that his jaw needed to be broken in 2 places and reset and wired shut so that it would align correctly - so basically 2 years of braces and thousands of dollars later we got NOTHING!
> 
> Speaking of lessons. Hubbies is tomorrow. ANd we are both looking forward to it.


I can't "like" this Carshon... I just can't. How horrible for you and your son! 

Hope hubby's lesson goes well! One of my male friends started taking lessons with us at my suggestion and often mentions that some of the movements are a little hard on his "man parts". I feel bad for him! Maybe he needs to wear a cup or something, but we're not close enough for me to suggest it. Tell us how hubby's lesson went!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

cbar said:


> I really hope it isn't long before you can start taking lessons again. In the meantime, it sounds like you've learned a lot that you can practice at home (and maybe squeeze the odd lesson in when you can???)


Well, I may be able to squeeze in the odd one... my pay should go up in July, but not sure by how much after taxes. Meantime, I will watch my daughter's lessons, practice at home, and since she and Harley are going to do a clinic, I plan on auditing if it's not too much $$$. I'd rather be there to watch her anyway, because then I can help her at home.

Sometimes as a parent, you really do have to be satisfied with living vicariously through your kids. I really do enjoy seeing her do so well at her lessons and in shows. I will never achieve what she's already achieved so it's truly a thrill for me to watch. There will be time for me later.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Lessons are great for a few reasons and I think most riders can benefit from them even if they have zero intention of competing.

Coaches are there to tell you what you can do better. Most rider problems originate with little quirks like not putting your heels down and sloppy rein management. Those things are worth doing better even if all you want to do on your horse is check the mail. 

It can be really humbling in a good way. A really trained horse can be hard to ride if you have enough bad habits working against you. Every rider has something that they aren't aware they are even doing that impedes their ability to be better.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Without lessons, I get really good at doing the wrong thing.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

waresbear said:


> Without lessons, I get really good at doing the wrong thing.


My favorite quote from my coach: "Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." In other words, if you just keep doing the wrong thing over and over again, you won't improve. But if you get it right a few times, you start to learn how it feels to do it right, and will want to continue.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

waresbear said:


> Without lessons, I get really good at doing the wrong thing.


Truer words were never typed.


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