# Color gurus?



## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

He looks brown to me. Love his different colored eyes.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

To me, he looks liver chestnut, maybe with splash white in there to account for the blue eye.


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## aneternalflame (May 25, 2009)

I posted this link on the sooty palomino thread, but on this page there is a palomino who is about the same colour as your horse. The third picture down. I think the only way you could be sure would be to have your horse tested.
Morgan Colors- Palomino Morgan Horses


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

He could be sooty palomino, but I don't really see it in those highlights, to me it looks more like liver chestnut. 

Could definately be wrong though!


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## armydogs (Apr 14, 2010)

i have no idea what he is. is it possible to have him tested for his color?


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

I also would call him a liver chestnut. I could be wrong but don't palomino's have the ability to throw back to chestnut since its the recessive gene? I don't know it's been a long time since 4-h horse bowl genetics lol.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

Oh and he's super cute by the way! I love his blue eye


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## Squeak (Apr 8, 2010)

I vote liver chestnut...

You look *so* familiar!


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

hmm...I'd go with liver chestnut as well, but he may "soot out" ( don't know what else to call it XD was a try to be joke thing thing..maybe not though..) as he gets older. but I definitly see liver chestnut as of the moment.
testing is probably the only way you'll be able to know for sure though, as a few others said.

-edits-

oh..and I know who you remind me of XD look almost like identical twins. the chica that rides Izzy at the barn I ride at haha so very, very similar lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

His coloring is almost identical to my old QH gelding, minus the blue eyes. I think my QH got a "touch" more coppery in the summer, but other than that just the same, I was always told liver chestnut.


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Do you know what the colours are in his bloodlines? As far back as you can go? That should help give an indication. I'd rule out Bay completely, his points are brown rather than black.... but his colouring could be a lot more interesting than simply liver chestnut depending on his genes!


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Wow! Thanks for all the replies!  



wild_spot said:


> To me, he looks liver chestnut, maybe with splash white in there to account for the blue eye.


I've actually been assuming splash white, too, between the blue eye and the white lower lip.



aneternalflame said:


> I posted this link on the sooty palomino thread, but on this page there is a palomino who is about the same colour as your horse. The third picture down. I think the only way you could be sure would be to have your horse tested.
> Morgan Colors- Palomino Morgan Horses


That is really interesting! If I'd seen that fella walking down the street, I'd never peg him as a palomino! I'll have to look into the color testing!



Ink said:


> I also would call him a liver chestnut. I could be wrong but don't palomino's have the ability to throw back to chestnut since its the recessive gene? I don't know it's been a long time since 4-h horse bowl genetics lol. Oh and he's super cute by the way! I love his blue eye


I'm by no means a genetics expert, but I do remember reading something once about crossing palominos with chestnuts to deepen the gold shade, or some such thing... that was in a very dated book, though, and it seemed like it was referring to a redder or copper chestnut rather than a liver shade. :? Thanks for the compliment! I'll pass it on to him! 



Squeak said:


> I vote liver chestnut...
> 
> You look *so* familiar!





Iseul said:


> hmm...I'd go with liver chestnut as well, but he may "soot out" ( don't know what else to call it XD was a try to be joke thing thing..maybe not though..) as he gets older. but I definitly see liver chestnut as of the moment.
> testing is probably the only way you'll be able to know for sure though, as a few others said.
> 
> -edits-
> ...


Ha ha, I get the familiarity thing a lot, actually. I must just have one of those faces... :lol: Actually, Iseul, now that I look at you location, I'm in NW PA. So, maybe you've seen me... I don't know any horses named Izzy, though... 



RoyalsRebel said:


> Do you know what the colours are in his bloodlines? As far back as you can go? That should help give an indication. I'd rule out Bay completely, his points are brown rather than black.... but his colouring could be a lot more interesting than simply liver chestnut depending on his genes!


I really don't have much background on him at all. He's ballparked about 8 years old (vet's guess based on teeth), and the people that I bought him from had him for about a month; he was given to them in really poor condition. I don't even know quite what breed he is... I'm basically assuming QH/Pony cross. I bought him for his charming attitude, lol. The most history I have on him is an old vet receipt from a year earlier and the palomino comment from an, erm..., less than reliable source (long story). That sooty stallion has me reconsidering it, though. Right now he's down as a dark chestnut on his Coggins paperwork, but that is my guess as the sellers didn't have any kind of records with him upon sale. The only reason I have an '08 vet receipt is that he was seen by my vet then, and we were able to ID his name and markings on the doc's computer. Looks like it'll take a test to be sure. I'll have to look into it after I see what kind of dent his annual checkup makes in my wallet!

Thanks for the insights, everyone! Looks like he'll stay dark/liver chestnut unless I can get him tested and he proves to be otherwise!


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

lol I'm chillin down in beaver county, like..smack in the middle of the western side XD and maybe lol coz I thought the chica that had Izzy (black tb, btw haha) looked like someone I've seen before too haha never mentioned it to her though :3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Iseul said:


> lol I'm chillin down in beaver county, like..smack in the middle of the western side XD and maybe lol coz I thought the chica that had Izzy (black tb, btw haha) looked like someone I've seen before too haha never mentioned it to her though :3
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol, yeah, I don't get much further south than I-80 or so. I'll keep an eye peeled for Izzy the black TB! :lol:


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

I keep leaning away from liver chestnut just because his colouring really does have a 'special' look to it and he's got a 'chrome-y' look to his coat. Definitely some QH in there, I've known many with that chrome sheen to the coat - it's gorgeous! I'm really leaning toward him having one creme gene - a smokey black (one creme gene on a black horse) which is sort of like a buckskin (which is one creme gene on a bay horse).



> Smoky black horses are sometimes called black buckskins or (especially in the UK) dilute blacks. These are black horses with a cream gene. They may be very difficult to identify and may look brown, bay, liver chestnut or faded black. The CCr allele is semi-dominant and dilutes red pigment to yellow in a single dose but has only a very subtle effect on black pigment.


Google smokey black! Really hard to distinguish from Liver chestnut...true. But he's just special looking.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

I vote for liver chestnut - my favorite color (don't tell Hunter that)
He is beautiful!


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## RoyalsRebel (Sep 24, 2009)

Adding to my last post too.... You said someone told you once that he was "purebred palomino" which is silly, but if they knew he had palomino in his parentage, i.e. they meant he was bred from one or two palomino's, he truly could be a smokey black as a palomino would have a creme gene to pass on, no?


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Just got back from Google! That smokey black is interesting... the only thing that would discount Scout from that description is that he never really goes true black (that I've ever seen), and he doesn't have the amber eyes. The one that isn't blue is a fairly dark brown. Sometimes I wish he had one leg without a sock so I could see how dark he would get farther down the legs. He does have some little ermine dots on one coronet that are brown, not black. He's always a little lighter up between his hind legs, no matter what bizarre highlights and shades come and go on his face.

Ha ha, thanks Hunter65! :lol:


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

RoyalsRebel said:


> Adding to my last post too.... You said someone told you once that he was "purebred palomino" which is silly, but if they knew he had palomino in his parentage, i.e. they meant he was bred from one or two palomino's, he truly could be a smokey black as a palomino would have a creme gene to pass on, no?


You got me halfway through my last reply, lol. 

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. My source on the palomino bit is a tad iffy, and also claims to have ridden Scout as a stallion (which, timeline-wise makes no sense, if he was gelded at a reasonable age, which in the absence of studly behavior I'm assuming, this gal would have been 10 years old, and he 3 or less. Sounded fishy to me, hence my skepticism on the rest of what she tells me about him... The "purebred palomino" comment is fairly characteristic actually). If she is right about him being palomino-bred, though, a cream dilute looks like a definite possibility, based on the couple of hours of research I've done. I have asked her about the existence of papers for him, or if she knew a registry name, etc. for him, but she didn't know anything that direction. I'll have to ask my vet how to go about getting him color-tested. I don't know of any palomino studs in my area, but that doesn't mean a lot... I know there are probably a passel of backyard breeders in my area.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Adding to my last post too.... You said someone told you once that he was "purebred palomino" which is silly, but if they knew he had palomino in his parentage, i.e. they meant he was bred from one or two palomino's, he truly could be a smokey black as a palomino would have a creme gene to pass on, no?


Cream doesn't dilute black, so if he were a smoky black, there would be black hairs somewhere in his coat that hadn't been affected, but I don't see any black hairs in the photos. Smoky blacks are normally all black, or only diluted around the flank, throat, etc.

Also, if he were out of two palominoes, I don't think he could have a black base, as Palomino is a red base, and two parents with a red base produce a red base (I think? Can't remember if e is dominant over black?).

I still think liver chestnut - I know a horse who is in between a liver and a chestnut and he has that real chrome sheen as well - Irridescence almost.

So I stick with my original guess - Liver chestnut with splash.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I will lay a strong bet on 99% certainty of him being a sooty palomino. The fact that someone has indicated he is palomino, and the very blatant highlights in certain areas (look at some photos, you can see a smidge of goldish coloring on the inside of his legs, the edge of his flank, and even along his neck).

He is obviously red based - any sort of black or bay is completely out, along with brown I think. If I'm wrong, then he's a deep liver chestnut, but I've seen a few of these very rare sooty palominos and he's the spitting image.

Palomino bred to palomino can definately produce a chestnut. The only way you'd avoid a chestnut is by breeding to a cremello (cremello X chestnut = palomino every time, cremello X palomino = palomino or cremello, cremello x cremello = cremello every time). So even if both parents were palomino, it would likely be impossible to determine his true color without a color test for cream. The only definitive way would be if you knew for sure one of his parents was cremello.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Out of curiosity - Can you get sooty cremello/perlino?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Out of curiosity - Can you get sooty cremello/perlino?


Most likely. Sooty is one of those weird genes that isn't fully understood yet - it seems to pop up out of nowhere, and it can drastically change colors as is evident from the sooty palomino Morgan that was posted. I don't believe it's been documented in double dilutes though, so it's possibly that something about the two cream genes removes the possibility of sooty to display physically. Sooty can be likened to flaxen on chestnuts, where we really have no idea when or why it happens.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Just had another look at the photos, and I still don't think he's a sooty palomino - Isn't sooty supposed to add black hairs through the coat? I don't see black hairs - Just brown/liver colouring.

All the pics of sooty palominoes i've seen tend to have more of a black tint because of the black hairs, eg:


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

well a horse can't be a 'purebred palomino' anyway, given that pali's are a 'color' not a breed anyway...soooo...lol! I always chuckle inside when people make comments like that about pali's, duns, buckskins, etc, when those are COLORS...NOT breeds!!!! ROFL!!!!!

Anyway...well, without a color test, you may never really know what color he really is, especially if he goes through alot of seasonal changes. One of the horses I had up til a year ago, I believe was genetically black with dun factoring, but I never had him tested, so I'll never know, but he had alot of different color factors in him, that you never really could tell what he really was!!!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

True. I supposed I shouldn't say he's most likely palomino, but given the information the OP has already received about him, it's entirely possible. Photos of sooty pals:




























Sooty definately doesn't always display physically as black tint.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

It definately is a conundrum - If you get him tested, please let us know, would be interesting to see which guesses are correct!


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## masatisan (Jan 12, 2009)

I know a horse who, colour-wise, looks a lot like your guy. He also has one blue eye, a stripe and gold-ish highlights. Both his parents are registered black (his father is non-fading I don't know about his mother) and I'm pretty sure he was born dark. 

This is him this past summer, he was soaking wet but you can see his highlights:








And this was a month or so ago in his winter woolies, shows some of his other highlights:








He is a purebred Canadien horse, chances are he's registered as plain old bay, brown, or black. Not likely as chestnut because both his parents were black. I wish I had a full body picture of him for comparison, but I don't.


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

If both of the parents are palomino then he could be either a palomino or a chestnut (since he clearly doesn't have a cream gene). Palominos are ee/aa or Aa or AA/nCr, meaning they always pass down the red factor gene. I would say he is a sooty palomino because of those really like patches on his legs and by his muzzle.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

masatisan said:


> He is a purebred Canadien horse, chances are he's registered as plain old bay, brown, or black. Not likely as chestnut because both his parents were black. I wish I had a full body picture of him for comparison, but I don't.


If his parents were black and he's not chestnut then black or possibly brown are the only colors he can be. Blacks cannot pass on Agouti or they would be bay themselves. It's so much easier when you know the parents, haha.

I'm having this issue with my Paint filly. Her head is black, but her flank patches look COMPLETELY "bay" in color (a burnished mahogany color). They never look black. But both her parents were supposedly black, so it's the only possible color outside of chestnut. Or maybe brown, I don't fully understand how brown works, I know it's a type of agouti, so I'm assuming you actually NEED a brown horse to produce one or it would display physically.

I think it's safe to say that regardless, the OP's horse IS a red base. The question is just between him being a liver chestnut or a sooty palomino.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I don't know if the color is coming through differently on my computer, but based on what's showing for me I would say whoever said he's palomino, doesn't know what a palomino is (and the fact they called him 'purebred palomino' automatically makes them lose credit). Looks like a liver chestnut to me.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Probably slightly off topic, but just for kicks, here is a neighbor's Foxtrotter that I believe is sooty palomino.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i am agreeing with MacabreMikolaj i'm definitely thinking sooty palomino. sure it looks nothing like palomino but if you look at the pictures of dark palomino it has those highlights exactly where your horse does. so it just makes sense for me. on the color game we were playing http://www.horseforum.com/games/guess-color-50820/page11/ there is a sooty palomino that looks alot like your horse. so thats my say so.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

sooty palomino, looks to me, more mottled than that. I think he is liver chestnut (brown)


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

I agree trailhorserider I think your neighbor's horse looks sooty palomino, I do NOT think the OP's horse is palomino.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

haviris said:


> I agree trailhorserider I think your neighbor's horse looks sooty palomino, I do NOT think the OP's horse is palomino.


Sooty palomino is not a specific color. This horse has been genetically proven to be palomino:










He is virtually the spitting image of the OP's horse. Sooty can easily make palomino unrecognizable, so whoever said he was a palomino was probably basing their information off his genetics, not just randomly saying he's palomino without knowing what it is.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Thanks again for all the insights, everyone!

Someday I'll have to get him color tested. I've seen a lot of liver chestnuts, from a distance and up close, but the pic of the dark sooty stallion really makes me wonder. I'm home from school for the weekend, so during Scout's grooming yesterday I was really looking at the highlights, especially around his legs, making sure that it wasn't a trick of the light or camera angle or something, but it's definitely a splotch of lighter hair all the way down the hair shaft. The main difference I'm seeing between him and the sooty Morgan posted is that the Morgan looks like he still has some silver/white strands in his mane and tail. Scout's is solid _very_ dark brown, no white/grey strands. Next time I see the gal that commented about him being palomino I'll have to fish for more info, ha ha. One of the 4-H leaders in my area is related to some previous owners as well, maybe she can help me out on some color history. I know one thing, if I call him a sooty palomino without the color test to back it up, we're going to get some interesting looks, ha ha :lol: I'm not sure most of the judges at the puny little events that I ride would know that palomino could express that way! 

Like the saying goes, a good horse is any color, and Scout's a darn good horse in my book. This sure makes an opportunity for me to learn something new and dust off what I did know about color!

Thanks again, everyone!


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## aneternalflame (May 25, 2009)

In response to that stallion having some grey hairs, there was another horse on the page I posted, a mare, who does not.
















I apologize for not being able to get the larger versions, I think the link died. But that is a palomino, no grey hairs. With the first one, he was golden for much longer. This mare, as documented below, went dark VERY fast, and since we don't know how the sooty gene works really, that may have something to do with it.







That is the mare at birth. Normal, right?







As a yearling. Not as normal.







As a two year old, she looked more palomino, but darkened quickly, as shown.
Just goes to show, you really can't judge a horse a palomino or not unless you owned them from birth or color test them haha.
But the point is, that mare does not have the greys interspersed.
I wish I had saved the large version of those pictures before the links broke, you can see it better.
Oh well.


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## aneternalflame (May 25, 2009)

And, just for fun, on the opposite end of the spectrum, you have this horse:
Coral Forest
She looks grey. But nope, she's also a palomino, just without any gold in her coat.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

I didn't read through all the replies, so sorry if I'm repeating what's already been said, but he looks a lot like a sooty chestnut to me. Sooty darkens colors (which would explain the dark mane and tail), and it tends to put gray or silver in the mane and tail (which I see a hint of in the bottom of his tail).

I sincerely doubt he's bay or black of any sort because his mane, tail, and knees are too brown.

He's definitely not palomino. Even with the darkening from the sooty gene, a palomino could never be that dark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sooty_(gene)




Also, I don't know if you know this, but he's definitely a sabino. White on the lower lip, blue eyes, large face markings, and jagged leg markings are all characteristics of sabino. The white on the lower lip is a dead giveaway.


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## aneternalflame (May 25, 2009)

Sooty palominos can be (as shown earlier in the thread with examples) that dark. There are two examples that I posted, a link to a website, though the picture is shown on page four, and another sooty palomino that looks liver chestnut, also on page four.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Testing would be the only I would believe this horse is palomino. And it's the only reason I believe the other horse is. I'm going to say it's rare for one to turn dark like that. And w/ the OP's horse coming from an unknown background we don't even know if it's possible. Yes someone said he was, but based on what the OP has said about them it doesn't really seem like they know what they are talking about. The fact they called him a 'purebred' palomino was the first sign to me, that could easily mean he was out of two palominos (which someone might assume would make a horse 'purebred' palomino, in which case I once owned one and she was sorrel!), which would also make it possible for him to be a chestnut (25% chance).

If I had bought this horse w/ the history they have I would call him liver chestnut. If I was just crazy currious I 'might' would have him color tested, but only if there was something that made me think he was different then he appears (the only thing I can think that would do that is his ped not backing up his color (for example if one of his parents was cremello), or photos or someone knowing he appeared palomino as a youngster), and some random girl telling me he's palomino wouldn't be it, I've heard plenty of silly things from people.

There are only two horses on here (other then the OP's horse) that I would never guess were palomino (and the mare definately looked it atleast up til 2), I would hate owning them and having to explain thier colors! It can be hard enough explaining their colors when they actually look like them! And that light palomino looks like a palomino to me (side note, but I say one on Craigslist not long ago that was almost the same shade, the ad said "golden palomino").


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## aneternalflame (May 25, 2009)

Correct, we don't know the horse's background, but that is why you can't assume either way! I am not saying this horse IS palomino, I am saying it is possible, and I see the hints of it in the gold highlights. Especially the one on the horse's leg. As I have said before, the only way to be sure is to test the horse. And no matter how ill-informed the person who said he was purebred palomino may be, that does put the option on the table because we don't know what that person was basing that on. She could have information that the OP doesn't. I personally would get the horse colour tested, but that's just me.


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

aneternalflame said:


> Correct, we don't know the horse's background, but that is why you can't assume either way! I am not saying this horse IS palomino, I am saying it is possible, and I see the hints of it in the gold highlights. Especially the one on the horse's leg. As I have said before, the only way to be sure is to test the horse. And no matter how ill-informed the person who said he was purebred palomino may be, that does put the option on the table because we don't know what that person was basing that on. She could have information that the OP doesn't. I personally would get the horse colour tested, but that's just me.


I took purebred palomino to be that both horses were registered with the Palomino Horse Association.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Supermane said:


> I took purebred palomino to be that both horses were registered with the Palomino Horse Association.


I was thinking that same thing. Just because we're all aware that palomino isn't a breed, doesn't mean a large percentage of the population doesn't. I've heard all kinds of crazy things come out of peoples mouiths - if both parents were registered with the PHA, it is entirely logical for someone to say he was "purebred palomino" if they lacked a full understanding of how it works.​


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## aneternalflame (May 25, 2009)

I thought that as well, but thought that people just didn't think it mattered that there *is* a Palomino Horse Association, even if it isn't a breed, so I didn't bring it up.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

There is a palomino breed association (I think there are two), and I considered that may have been what was ment, but again they don't breed true and if that is the case 25% chance of chestnut! Like I said if I was the crazy currious, I'd color test! But he's a gelding that appears to be liver chestnut, kind of seems like a waste of money in this case. I'm not saying they shouldn't test, in fact that is the only way we'll really know, and I hope they share the results if they do! Just if it was me I wouldn't bother, and until then I will assume he's a liver chestnut since that is what he appears to be and there isn't anything that makes me assume he's anything else. I've seen horses posted w/ colors that really leave me scratching my head, this just isn't one of them. And again I'm not saying it's impossible, just unlikely. W/ more info I may change my mind, but not w/ what I've read so far.


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## mct97 (Jan 19, 2010)

Liver Chestnut or _maybe _dark bay?


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## hillarymorganstovall (Mar 27, 2010)

I think they recognize brown as a color now... I would definitely say sealy brown

http://www.carriagesales.com/Images/1685-1.jpg


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

hillarymorganstovall said:


> I think they recognize brown as a color now... I would definitely say sealy brown
> 
> http://www.carriagesales.com/Images/1685-1.jpg


I would disagree with that. They HAVE found brown as a gene, but it's just another form of agouti - so it basically seems to create that dark bay color all over instead of keeping black points.

Her boy is clearly red based - regardless of shades, bays will always produce a mahogany tinge whereas chestnuts will remain "reddish". His uniform reddish hue and golden highlights indicate to me he's definately not black based.

Here's a perfect example:

Top Line Quarter Horses

At first glance, almost everyone would assume she's a bay, but she's actually a liver chestnut with a dark mane. The second photo gives away her true color with that shimmery red tinge and non black legs.

Browns are almost exclusively a very dark bay, so dark that the black legs seem to disappear, hence the years of confusion between brown and dark bay. They will always have a very flat black or mahogany tinge.

Example:










His tinge is very blatantly black chocolate colored with tinges of mahogany on his points.


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## hillarymorganstovall (Mar 27, 2010)

Sealy brown is alot like liver chestnut... They often have tan muzzles, but not always... Here are more pictures and info..

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/sealbrown.html
http://prairieponderosacurlyhorses.com/pics/ppcdixiemare.jpg
http://www.fairwindsstables.com/images/DSC_0145.JPG
http://www.pagerun.com/Web Photos/Lady Dreams At Nite_web.jpg
http://www.rohan-irishwolfhounds.com/rohanstables/Images/espejo.jpg


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## hillarymorganstovall (Mar 27, 2010)

Ok... your probably right!! I think it does look alot like a liver chest nut, and also like a darker seal brown.... I'm definitely no expert!!


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## hillarymorganstovall (Mar 27, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj,

I see the red that you are talking about, and seal brown horses seem to have darker legs, but I'm confused too... 

I was wondering if his socks could possibly make his legs look lighter (obviously they can make them white, but make the dark points not show at all?) and can a liver chestnut have tan on its soft spots? In the second picture and last picture he looks like he has tan on his flanks and other places.

I'm not trying to second guess you, you sound like a pro! Just trying to learn


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