# Thunder the Shire's Training Thread



## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Well this is the year! I spoke to Thunder's breeder and I'm sending him off for driving training around Memorial Day this year. I will desensitize him, and get him dragging tires and things, before he goes, so that all the breeder has to do is hitch and go. To be honest, I'm much more confident now, and I think I really could break him to drive completely on my own with no issues, but I have always liked to hedge my bets, so I still want professional help to finish him off. Thunder is an incredible horse and I don't want to ruin him by making a stupid mistake. To that end I've asked if I can be present as much as possible for his training, and the breeder agreed that that's a sensible idea, so in reality a lot of his "training" is going to be her telling me what to do with him, a prospect that I'm looking forward to. In this way we will both be learning together, and I'll have a more thorough knowledge of driving when he's done. 

So far I've started ground driving him, and he's taking to it very well. For the first 2 drives I clipped the reins to both his bit and the halter, so that it acted on his nose and mouth like a half breed sidepull, but his last time I just used the snaffle alone and he was very good. He's got an excellent whoa - I can stop him off of my voice alone, which is great. "Walk on" usually doesn't have much of an effect on him, but I'd rather have him too lazy than too hot! As his breeder said, you can always get them to move faster - slowing them down is much harder. I use "baaaaack" to back him up, which I can do sans reins 90% of the time, clucking to trot, "easy" to slow down from a trot to a walk (which he is only too happy to do), and of course whoa to stop. I haven't started commands to turn left and right yet ... I'm not sure if I really want to or not. Is it really that necessary to turn him off of your voice only?

I have also started on desensitizing to various objects. I am the queen of desensitizing lol, so I have absolute confidence in my ability to get this horse used to literally ANYTHING on the planet, given enough time. I have a number of empty milk jugs that I've washed and tossed a few pebbles in, then tied baling string to the handles so they can be thrown and make a god-awful racket. A heavy garbage bag with soda cans, similarly tied with baling string, makes another noise maker. We have pool noodles, tarps, big balls, pinwheels, crumpled tin foil, balloons, party favors, a million plastic bags, cap guns, a teenager with an absurdly loud truck, bicycles, ATVs, and a partridge in a pear tree at my disposal to use to desensitize Thunder to anything I can think of. 

So far I've only used the milk jugs and bag 'o cans, but already Thunder is coming right along. I throw the jugs at him, I bounce them off his butt, wrap them around his legs, drag them under his belly, shake them around his face and behind him, hang them from the saddle so they're hitting him in the sides as he walks, hang them so he has to drag them as he is lunged and driven, kick them at his feet, etc etc etc. As Clinton Anderson says, heart attacks are free, so give your horse one! I do my darndest to give Thunder a heart attack every day, and the more I try to scare him stupid the less he cares about anything. He still has a bit of a problem with the milk jugs flying through the air toward him, so we still need work there, but for everything else he falls asleep. 

I am desensitizing Thunder far more than I usually do ... with most horses I try to keep my desensitizing and my sensitizing about equal, but for Thunder the vast majority of every session is desensitizing. I don't have a harness for him yet, but I hang various things off of him all the time - ropes, milk jugs, jackets, blankets, eventually tarps, anything I can think of. I hang them in such a way that they slap him on the belly or the sides as he moves, so they drag behind and under him, so that he steps on them and they fall off, etc. So far very little seems to upset him, and he tends to take everything in stride with a pleasant expression. He is one of those horses that was simply "born broke" I think.

Can't wait to see how this horse progresses, and can't wait for our first drive together. It's going to be a blast! : )






-- Kai


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

My internet is too slow for the video today, but I’m excited to see what you do and how he progresses! Great desensitizing idea too; I’m going to have to try some of them out!!!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

He's coming 2 isn't he? Have you worked him down the center to practice straight lines without a wall to aid you? Serpentines and figure 8's? I want them voice only with every command for the day that I lose the reins or they panic and bolt. It also helps if the line gets snared and there is no contact. A horse that goes on verbal cues and knows the commands if they are not blind with fear do respond. Even if they are you can sometimes startle them out of it. Just the way I was taught and carried forward. I am a quiet rider but I talk through any driving (even if it is to myself in the show ring) - just habit. 

Have you ordered a harness yet? I usually start with tires and depending on their response go from that to a drag or stone boat (if they are horrible about wanting to take off) or the Pioneer forecart (if they show a willingness to listen and don't launch themselves forward) with me behind not on for the first several drives. When I do get in I add tires to the back to create some resistance. Once I am absolutely sure of them I drop the tires and use an enclosed area so they can't get too much speed up this is where I also work on backing with the cart.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Subbing


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## Kristopher (Jan 30, 2018)

Shires are generally pretty quite. Great horses for driving. We start with tires also and stone boats like qrtbell said. You can desensitize good. But eventually have to get him pulling. Hope for the best. If you can line drive and get him to stop and turn. I would get him pulling. It really is the only way. We train gypsy to pull. We line drive for a day depending on them of course. Get them used to noise and such. Them get them to start pulling. They love it. Good luck and all the best


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Subbing! 

I really recommend taking a look at Barry Hook's videos on all the stuff he does to desensitize horses while in harness, and actually out driving. They are SUPER informative.

One other thing you need to teach him to do off voice alone, the command "STAND". He should stand until you tell him to walk on, because that command can save your butt in an emergency. There is a driving trainer operating under the name "Coachman's Delight" who does webinars on how to teach your horse to stand.


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## Kristopher (Jan 30, 2018)

One tip I will give you. Keep contact on your reins. The reins are way to loose. Keep his head up. Video does not look like your in control. Looks like your just walking behind him. It is key to training for driving. Mabey after a year of driving can loosen that rein. But constant contact is required to make sure your in control. Practice nice turns. Not sharp will bind up in wagon. I have fifth wheel wagons and sleight but I still will only turn sharp if I need to get out of a tight area. Nice turns are better with just a little bend in the head. Good luck. Keep at it.


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## Kristopher (Jan 30, 2018)

Ya mulefeather. I used to watch him lots. Like when he hooks up 4 horses. He is real good with them. I also agree 
Teaching to stand and rest is a must. If you ever need a rest or need to stop somewhere and they won’t stand it is super annoying. Lol


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## Kristopher (Jan 30, 2018)

Qrtbell. Is that your team. In your picture?


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

@QtrBel Yes he'll be 2 in 3 weeks. I haven't worked him down the center I don't think, but we have been doing serpentines and figure 8s. He goes fairly straight, it's the turns he sucks at lol. Handles like a drunken shopping cart at the moment but he's improving a bit each time so I can't be too hard on him. : ) I am still deciding which harness to get ... I'm on the fence as to which type. I think for the pulling we'll be doing, a breastcollar is more than sufficient - I'm never going to have 20 people in the cart with me, nor will I have him pulling such a monstrosity. I really like the flexibility of the brollar, as it pulls the same whether your hookups are high or low, but it's not that strong and is basically a glorified breastcollar so why spend the extra $200 for a fancier breastcollar? Regular collars look nice I think, but I'll never need one and they're more expensive, and hotter in the summer, and Thunder is hot enough during the warm months. So idk ... I'm leaning more toward the breastcollar style but I might get a brollar, not sure yet. In any case I need to get a move on ... he'll be ready to drag things soon.
@Mulefeather Yes I love Barry Hook's videos! He has a host of great information, even in the ones where he isn't talking you can pick things up if you're observant. I will admit his obstacle course is the inspiration to my desensitizing regimen. : ) Also I hadn't thought of "stand" which makes no sense because I have trained that into my past horses .... duh. Thanks for bringing that up!
@Kristopher Yes I was reluctant to take up contact since I had the reins clipped to both the bit and the halter, and that rope halter has stiff knots on the nose. I didn't want to cause him any discomfort digging into his nose the whole time. We have since moved on to just the bit, and I now drive him on contact as much as I can (he tends to move his head around a lot so I have to get used to moving with him more). I had a video taken last night that shows a ton of improvement all around, but my fiancé has stolen my import cord so it will have to wait until I get back from work in a few days. 

-- Kai


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## Kristopher (Jan 30, 2018)

Keep at it. If you have any questions feel free to ask.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Update!

Last night I focused more on the trot, as thus far we'd only trotted a few steps and Thunder would give me the hairy eyeball for a bit while I was chasing him. After two minutes he was moving off smoothly and totally not concerned with me being back there. We worked on keeping our turns nice and round, and for the first time Thunder stopped on "whoa" every time without me having to use the reins once. So proud! After about 10 or 15 minutes of driving we spent the rest of the session desensitizing, and Thunder has finally overcome his aversion to having large loud milk jugs flung at his body. I slung them over his back too, and had him walk forward so he was dragging the jugs. They made lots of noise, hit his legs, he stepped on them and kicked them out of his way and there were no problems whatsoever. 

I took out the bad 'o cans but that proved to be far less exciting than I'd hoped. Thunder absolutely did not care about the bag 'o cans, and stood quietly while I rubbed it on him, tossed it over his back, hit him in the sides with it, dragged it under his legs, etc etc. I hung it off of his ears too, and flopped it between his eyes, and he fell asleep lol. At one point the bag fell off of his butt as he was walking, and before I could grab it Thunder turned around, grabbed it in his teeth, and started waving it around like a prize. When I tried to take it from him he trotted, and held it up higher so I couldn't reach it, and once he reared, shaking the bag the whole time. I nearly fell over, I was laughing so hard. At the end he walked up to me and dropped the bag at my feet, then stood there waiting expectantly for me to tell him he was the best horse in the world, which of course I did. I didn't really appreciate him rearing but I let it slide this one time, as he was simply having fun with this scary object, and I didn't want to reprimand him for being relaxed around it. I would give my next paycheck to go back in time and get all that on video, it was hysterical.

Suffice to say, I think desensitizing is coming along quite well. : )

-- Kai


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## Kristopher (Jan 30, 2018)

They are generally pretty quite , wrap him up in a tarp. And line drive him. That helps also.


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## Kristopher (Jan 30, 2018)

Do you have a harness yet. If not would recommend neck collars. And if he wants to keep moving his head that's kind of normal when they first start out. Blinders can help with that. And constant pressure on the reins will help keep the head straight also. But I am sure your enjoying working with him. When we would get them broke to parades we would pop balloons also. Basically anything you can think of. Be creative.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Stopped reading at post 10 to reply and then will go back. Yes Kristopher that is my first team. They have both passed but I have several of their daughters. Kai is also using her saddle as a stand in for a surcingle or harness and that is what you are seeing with the reins. Once she has harness things will improve really quickly as the reins will be able to slide so the action on the bit will be much better and that will improve his response.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Oh, yes... the STAND command. Imperative. I have never been blessed with a patience pole or cross ties or even a tie rack so all of mine know stand, no questions asked (by the horse that is). Stand means stand. And they learn early. 

Better to have to much than too little. A good collar lasts a lifetime. I do have both though breast collar and collar set up. I find I pull the collar out even just for tooling around. Now he still has quite a bit of growing so you can go two ways - get what fits now and can be adjusted up to a point them move him into his permanent collar or if you have someone that can help (the breeder is close) you can make a good guess as to size and shape and buy a pad. Going get hay and the DH is chomping at the bit. Add more later.


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## Kristopher (Jan 30, 2018)

Qrtbel. Are those Belgium. We use gypsy, shires and Percheron.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Yes, they are Belgians.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Well I will have more videos and updates later tonight but I wanted to ask a quick question before I go run errands ... 

Thunder seems to be a double jointed bit horse ... he doesn't really care for the single jointed snaffle I'm training him in at the moment. Lots of gaping, which tends to make the bit slide a lot. I've noticed he has a very low palate compared to other horses so that's probably the cause. Just for kicks I tried him in a dog bone D ring snaffle that I had laying around (that was too small, but it was just for a few minutes) and he was much better with that. No gaping, it obviously didn't slide around in his mouth, and he accepted the contact better without any complaints. So. I am currently weighing the pros and cons of two eggbutt snaffles (because I couldn't find any D ring snaffles that weren't twisted, single jointed, or $250, grrrr) and was wondering if there is a significant difference between a French link eggbutt snaffle and an eggbutt snaffle with an oval wafer? Otherwise the bits are identical - same width, thickness, both stainless steel. I'm leaning a bit more toward the French link simply because he seemed to like that dog bone ... but he has a fairly sensitive mouth so isn't the wafer a tiny bit more gentle? Or would the difference be negligible? 

Thanks for all your help guys!! I'll get the latest video up asap, it's a good one. : )

-- Kai


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

Subbing!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I second buying him a collar harness rather than a breastcollar, especially for a draft horse. It gives you much more flexibility on what you can hitch him to, and is more comfortable for the horse. 

As someone who rides primarily western, my biggest problem when driving was keeping enough contact on the lines. Once I did, it was amazing how much better my horses moved and how much straighter they traveled with better turns. Firm, consistent contact also gives the horse confidence.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

My only issue with a collar right now is that he's just 2 .... I'm assuming he still has a lot of growing to do (heck, he outgrew his winter blanket 4 months after I bought the darn thing), including his neck, so whatever I buy now won't fit him for very long. I don't like the idea of having to buy a new collar and hames every year until he's done growing. Or am I wrong? Can I order one that's a size or two too big so that he can grow into it? I would assume an ill-fitting collar would not only be uncomfortable, it would be a safety hazard. Ergh. I actually have his harness picked out lol, I am just debating now whether I want a breastcollar or a collar style. I've dropped the brollar at this point since it isn't any stronger than a breastcollar and is more expensive than either a breastcollar OR a collar. They look cool, but nah. 

For long-term use I like the collar better ... but for right now, I think a breastcollar would be the way to go. Later when his growth has slowed down I can order a collar, hames and tugs and use those with the rest of the harness I have already. Here's the harness I'm thinking of:

https://chimacumtack.com/product/pleasure-harness/

-- Kai


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Now he still has quite a bit of growing so you can go two ways - get what fits now and can be adjusted up to a point then move him into his permanent collar or if you have someone that can help (the breeder is close) you can make a good guess as to size and shape and buy a pad. Well make that 3 - with the breeder close perhaps she has something you can borrow for a bit. I used to keep a few collars in smaller sizes and then move them up to their permanent one but once I moved here those I worked with had to come with their own. I just didn't have the room or need for the wide selection I had once I moved. For mine I bought what I figured would fit and padded. Hames fit the collar and collar (padded or not) should fit the horse. That gives you plenty of room to grow. Both are adjustable up to a certain percent so you can have both on their smallest setting with a pad and be just fine.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Update! (Finally!)

So on Wednesday we had a Desensitizing Extravaganza. I tossed balloons, bottles, jugs, bags, plastic, and a tarp into the arena. Thunder was rather underwhelmed lol. First I lunged him around amongst the assorted trash, letting him sniff the objects and move them around. Not a single thing scared him, not even when he stepped on a balloon and popped it. At one point he grabbed a plastic bag in his lips and waved it around, and right after I stopped filming he grabbed my tarp in his teeth and ripped a giant hole in it ... lol what a turd! I kicked the bottles at him and he'd tap them back with his front hooves. He chased the balloons around with his nose (I think he would have grabbed one if he had the dexterity in his lips lol). Ground driving him amongst the trash had a similar effect. 






Then I started tarping him. He wore it, I dragged it behind him, I wove it between his legs. Nothing scared him, and he barely looked at it. I'm glad that he is not fazed by scary objects, and that he will bravely walk over and around these things even when they are moving. This guy is so chill! Are all draft horses this calm or is this all him? lol Dreams is pretty cool about scary things but even he had to take a few minutes to work up the courage to cross the tarp the first time. Thunder was like, "Eh, it's a blue thing." *stomp stomp stomp* X D






-- Kai

*So I watched these videos and they are very poor quality. Is it just my InterWebs or do they suck for you guys too? I HATE our internet, it sucks so hard.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

No they are fine for me. You might want to get a few people with ye olde horse eaters madame bigus pursus, sir umbrella popus openus and littles bigus floppy hatticuses. Raincoats. Waving them around and approaching squealing. How is he walking through water? Running water? Oh and for some reason for one of ours it was flip flops on pavement. Is he good with people grabbing at him or randomly slapping him places. For some reason there is one in every crowd that thinks they just have to whack the crap out (overenthusiastic slap on the neck or shoulder or rump if you let them get that far past you) of them to impress someone. Or you have the mother that wants her kid UNDER your horse for a picture to make an impression. Kids just seem to want to be there anyway and hanging on legs and harness as well. While they may come across these other things in their everyday activities if you have them in the public it is Joe Public you have to worry about. Throwing things is good if you have them out at Mardi Gras, an industrial fan blowing things is great as well. Wrapping a whip around their legs so they get desensitizied to touch from said blown things, loud noise like fire engines and cop cars, motors gunning and actual gunfire works for well, gunfire or cars backfiring (like those little Shriner beep beeps do). The reality for me has been if you ignore it they ignore it and when you do find that one thing if you ever do then you work them through it. Guaranteed it will be something you'll shake your head and say - you've got to be joking , really, a ________. Drafts are individuals just like any other horse. They may have been bred in the past for a calm demeanor and most still retain one but now the focus is more hitchy and unfortunately that goes with skitzy so you'll find a fair number of those as well. The thing many don't realize is that even with the calmest draft when something scares them or they react the reaction matches their size and that is scary. What are you planning on doing with him? I'm sure you've said and I've forgotten?


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Wow @QtrBel those are GREAT ideas!! Thank you, some of them I hadn't thought of. Thunder is ... okay ... with water. He will give it the hairy eyeball and then when I encourage him to walk in he will. We haven't encountered running water yet, I was planning on trailering him to a creek this spring to desensitize to that. We need a bit more work on water in general I think. He is good with flapping things around him, I will frequently make a big deal about taking off a coat and flapping it around and tossing it on him and he's great there. I'll have to bring an umbrella next time .... slapping him elicits no response except a politely interested "Yes? You called?" I wrap things around his legs all the time so no worries there, but I'll have to get on my knees and grab him around the leg and stuff to simulate a small child. lol I haven't been able to find a cap gun but my friend has a bullwhip and he's going to help me this month with that. This guy's sire was pleasure bred and known for being very placid and passing that calmness on to all of his babies. The breeder has introduced me to many of her crop of babies from the last two years and I can definitely tell a difference between the babies from Thunder's sire and the babies from her other sires. Thunder is definitely the calmest horse I've ever worked around, and I'm finding it's a refreshing change from my usual cowhorse/performance horse colts. : )

Luckily when Thunder does get scared, he's a "freeze!" kind of spooker. He will jump and snort and then stand there staring at the scary thing, which is nice. To date I haven't been able to make him run in fear, so I think he'll be alright even if he does get scared out on the town. I bought him as a pleasure driving horse. I might show him locally, just for fun, but primarily he will be a horse that I can hitch and take a nice evening drive downtown or out in the country. Overall I want him to be SAFE ... I have spent a lot of time thus far walking him on the streets in our town, both the quiet ones and the busy ones downtown, including around the railroad yard, to get him used to traffic, changes in pavement, dogs barking, people shouting, cars honking, etc. I almost bought a weanling that had more action and a bit more speed but he was hitch bred (different sire) and I wanted something more hum-drum as my first driving horse. I also bought Thunder as a calm mount for my fiancé to ride, though Rodney is no cowboy so I'll be perfectly happy if he rides Thunder twice a month. Mostly he'll just be a nice calm pleasure driving horse. : )

-- Kai


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Update - 

Last night I saddled Thunder with the western saddle for the first time. I wanted to kind of take a break from driving, since Thunder's new bit isn't here yet (eggbutt snaffle with a wafer) and now that I know he has a low palate and doesn't like that single joint snaffle I just don't have the heart to jab him in the mouth anymore. He's super good with ground driving anyway so I don't think I need to keep drilling it. I wanted to make sure he didn't object to the flank cinch so I snugged it up fairly tight and sent him off for a few minutes of lunging. As per the usual, Thunder was unimpressed with this new thing and didn't give me any problems at all. He was similarly unimpressed with me slapping the saddle's seat, flapping the stirrup leathers, pulling on it, rocking it, etc. I probably won't saddle him with the western saddle much after this month - I didn't even bother checking the fit because I'm 99% certain there's no chance that it fits, so I mostly just wanted to get him desensitized to the flank cinch. I'll probably have him wear it a few more times then that will be that. Thunder doesn't lunge as well as I'd like ... but I hardly ever lunge him so I don't really bother trying to make him perfect - for the things I want to do with him, lunging is not a skill set he has to have. I think this week I've lunged him twice and that's more than he's been lunged in the last 6 months lol!






And I messed up. I train all of my horses to back up with just a finger on the chest, so that if I'm ever in their stall or messing with them on the ground and I need them to move back I can lay my finger on the chest and they'll back right up. I'd forgotten that Thunder needs to push INTO pressure on his chest, not move AWAY from it. : / So because he's my first driving horse and I really don't know what I'm doing (lol) I spent a few minutes making sure he would push into chest pressure when asked. Turns out my fears were unfounded ... he happily dragged Rodney around in the arena with my homemade "breastplate" (a western cinch attached to my driving lines to make "traces" and a piece of hay twine over the neck to keep it up) and never offered to move off of that pressure. Feel free to laugh ... I was laughing at myself inside the whole time. Yay for people who make this stuff up as they go along! Poor Rodney took it like a champ, even though he was beat afterwards. I think he's a keeper. ; )






-- Kai


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

They really need a 30 foot lunge so they have a 60' round space to circle on. Anything smaller with the them even young I've found just builds resistance. They're also smart enough (everyone I've trained) to know the difference between a finger in the chest to back and pushing on a collar. No confusion at all. But, if you think you'll have issues then point at them and say back and let that finger in the face be back. I also put a hand on the nose. They also know to walk with a hand on the mane or shoulder - no halter and lead necessary.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Yeah Dreams and Thunder will both lead just off of body language. Sometimes I'll have a hand under the jaw, resting on the off cheek, but if they're not haltered or bridled it's mostly just body language. lol I figured he would be fine pushing into the breastcollar but I just wanted to be sure. Nothing like waiting until a horse HAS to do a thing before discovering that they can't do that thing. I'd rather be way over prepared than under prepared, especially with this, my first driving horse. At least one of us needs to know what we're doing at all times. ; )

And eh, I probably won't be getting an actual lunge line anytime soon. Now that he's worn the flank cinch snugged up tight, been sent over the tarp, started ground driving, and is generally ready to move on I most likely won't be using that skill set much. Like I said, I hardly ever lunge this horse, he's not like one of my western horses that I want to teach rollbacks and spins and hard stops and all that jazz. I think I've lunged this horse 10-12 times in his entire life, so even if he were to develop resistance (something I haven't yet seen in any of the horses I've trained, but then none of them were drafts so maybe that was what you were getting at?) I'll be quitting lunging before he can do so. 

I finally ordered his harness and it's supposed to be here by March 2nd, so definitely after that the focus will be on dragging things and ground driving. I'm actually super impatient for the snow to melt, at least off of the roads anyway, so I can get him out of the arena and into the "real world". I definitely want to spend some time ground driving him outside on the slower roads, getting him out around vehicles and barking dogs and children and all that with all of his stuff on. I mean ... there's only so much you can do in the indoor. We're supposed to get another 7 inches tomorrow though, so le sigh it'll probably be April before we can do any of that. Grr I'm ready for spring already. : /

-- Kai


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

With the smaller horses I'd say optimum is 50' but 30' works too. They tend to be much more agile than a draft. Teaching something specific you know the amount of space you need that is effective. Lunging to settle nerves, exercise, respect you don't want to put pressure (though that isn't word I want - too early not enough coffee) on joints doing tight circles over and over which is something I see with many. I don't see lunging as an end all be all which it sounds like you don't either. Use it to get where you need to get and move on and then if you need that tool it is there. You keep changing direction and using transition so they are always moving - always thinking. I know someone that HAS to lunge every time she rides. She lunges for a period of time as long or longer than her ride. Actually more than one. One mainly to wear the horse down (she's created a really fit horse) and another for respect. IMO if this becomes an every ride routine you have the wrong horse especially when someone else can handle the horse and/or ride without that need. Sorry venting and not at you just one of my pet peeves. I had a neighbor that rides that it took months to break the habit of every time something spooked her she'd send the horse in tight circles on the lead. Poor horse had no option but to face her and crossover the back legs with these tiny baby slides on the front to get around. That neighbor honestly thought that was lunging for respect. I will say for a draft with respect though I have a 30' lunge I coil to about 18ish just depends on the horse and it isn't a long or often repeated exercise.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

ERGH yes that's a pet peeve of mine too. There is a woman at my barn who refuses to ride before first lunging her horse for like 30 minutes. The look on her face when I suggested she not bother lunging was priceless ... although this is a horse who is pumped up on rocket fuel all week and maybe ridden like twice a week, so I can't really blame her for wanting to lunge that sucker down a bit. I actually used to be one of the "lunging MUST be done every day ERMAGURD" folks .... it was Dreams who brought me out of that. I realized that I was spending so much of my limited time moving his feet on the ground, at the expense of saddle time. While groundwork is great to a degree, like you said, it shouldn't be the be all and end all. I think people get stuck on a certain point in their horse's training and they feel like they can't or shouldn't progress.

Thunder's breeder had told me that lunging really isn't good for a draft horse's joints, so I have been doing my very best to not lunge him hardly at all. I mean, I think it was necessary for the first saddling or two, getting after him if he's being a horrible turd (which I did exactly once and Thunder thought he was going to die lol) stuff like that. But just for ****s and giggles? No. I've found that I'm getting so much more accomplished on every ride with Dreams now that I don't waste time on lunging unnecessarily ... Same with Thunder. When I don't waste time of stuff that doesn't need to happen we can progress so much faster on the stuff that DOES matter. These days Dreams only gets lunged when he's been unridden for a long while, to make sure he's not going to do anything stupid. I used to use it when we encountered scary objects on rides but I haven't had to do that in about a year. 

For the last few days I've had to fend off several older cowboys here at the barn ... they are all asking me when I'm going to ride Thunder lol. "He's big enough to ride" they keep saying ... no matter how many times I tell them he's just barely 2, that he's a draft and therefore the usual rules don't apply, etc. Ray, who is there every day without fail and knows more about breaking colts than any other person I've ever met, is convinced that I could climb on him tomorrow with no issue. He's right, mentally - Thunder is so laid back that I'd have no qualms about hopping on him with no more training than he's had thus far. But physically? No. I'm sure a ride wouldn't kill him, but what kind of minor strain might that put on his growing legs and back and tendons that might come out later as a big issue? I'm not willing to take that chance. He's in training to drive, so I'll be using him this year. Riding, while a prospect that I'm looking forward to, can wait. Normally I put the first 30 days on a colt in the fall of their 2 year old year. I think with Thunder I think he'll get his 30 days in the fall of his 3 year old year. I cringe inside a bit, thinking I'll have to wait a whole YEAR AND A HALF from now, but it's worth it to save his body in my opinion. Besides, he's going to need a decent fitting saddle before I climb aboard ... I'm already buying a harness, training, and a wagonette this year. I can't afford a saddle too lol!

-- Kai


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Update - 

So I ordered this bit for Thunder: https://www.equestriancollections.c...ts/jp-bits-by-korsteel-oval-mouth-eggbutt-bit

But this is the bit that I actually received: https://www.equestriancollections.c...korsteel-loose-ring-with-copper-oval-link-bit

I notified the company that they'd made a mistake, and even though the bit I received is worth more than the bit I ordered they actually gave me a store credit and offered to exchange the bits and send me a label for free return shipping. I elected to keep this bit though, because if I exchanged bits I'd be without a bit for a little while and I had a feeling Thunder would do well in this bit. 

I was right. Thunder was soft, he didn't fling his head around, he didn't gape his mouth or try to pull the reins out of my hands or any of the other obnoxious things he was doing with that single jointed snaffle. After I removed the bridle, I went to bridle him again and for the first time he voluntarily dropped his head and opened his mouth without needing any encouragement. My only complaint is that the copper lozenge makes him salivate like crazy. This is a horse that leaves puddles in his grain bin after eating ... while munching on hay long strands of drool will fall out of his mouth ... I would have preferred stainless steel to keep the slobber to a minimum but eh, he seems to like it. I will watch him carefully in the coming weeks and I might actually get another one of these for his driving bridle so I don't have to keep swapping bits every time I work him. Or maybe I'll get the one I originally intended to get lol ... I still like the idea of an eggbutt better than a loose ring. But maybe it's better to just stick with this one ... if it's not broke, don't fix it. : )

-- Kai


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

He looks so handsome in that picture!!


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I gave Thunder a big test today. The weather has been horribly cold and I haven't worked with him in 4 days, so he was full of beans today. I decided to take him out of the arena and ground drive him on the roads for the first time, and he was wonderful. He did everything I asked him to do, including "stand still" (although I could tell he would really much rather have not stood still lol) and even when we went under the interstate overpass with large trucks speeding by overhead, he didn't bat an eye and walked straight through when I asked him. At one point a big aggressive dog came running out from some bushes barking and he only flicked an ear back, didn't react at all. Cars passed us on both sides, and I introduced him to a few road signs ("meh") and some mailboxes (*snort*). To me the highlight of the "drive" was when he moved off of the road into some deep snow and went in up to his belly. He floundered for a step or two then stopped and looked back at me like "Help?" I was able to guide him out of the deep stuff and he took it all in stride, didn't get excited and just kept plodding along. He just keeps getting better and better!! 






-- Kai


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

QtrBel said:


> Now he still has quite a bit of growing so you can go two ways - get what fits now and can be adjusted up to a point then move him into his permanent collar or if you have someone that can help (the breeder is close) you can make a good guess as to size and shape and buy a pad. Well make that 3 - with the breeder close perhaps she has something you can borrow for a bit. I used to keep a few collars in smaller sizes and then move them up to their permanent one but once I moved here those I worked with had to come with their own. I just didn't have the room or need for the wide selection I had once I moved. For mine I bought what I figured would fit and padded. Hames fit the collar and collar (padded or not) should fit the horse. That gives you plenty of room to grow. Both are adjustable up to a certain percent so you can have both on their smallest setting with a pad and be just fine.


Most of the draft horse guys around here say you can safely buy a collar 2" too big, and pad it if needed. If you suspect the horse will grow more than that, it's well worth buying one that will fit for awhile, and getting another down the road if needed. Ask around to other draft horse people-- you can often find someone who has a collar they're willing to lend if need be and can help show you how it should fit, or some harness shops will lease you one.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

What a cool horse. I want a Thunder 

One older teamster around here has his horses trained to 'step up' (take one step) and 'step two' (two steps). Same with 'get back' and 'get back two'. Gee over, haw over, and the like. They'll tighten up the traces on command, lower their heads for the collars, and in general he can work them logging or in any manner on farm equipment or vehicle and they're easy as pie to handle. All things you can teach Thunder if you're looking for something to do with him.  

We went to a driving clinic day, and they had a dozen teams there, and anyone who wanted got a chance to drive them. What fun! All of the horses behaved admirably, even ones that had never been off the farm before or were very young-- a testament to the farm-type draft horse's temperament and trainability and to good handling from the start. The one thing that had them all looking? A couch set up on the curb for trash pickup. Every team took a good look at that, but all went by it without issue.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I'm super excited to get Thunder in harness (it should be here by the 1st, squeeee!) and start him dragging things ... I think he's ready for logs, tires, etc. There's a roping dummy on skids at this arena that I'm dying to have him drag around before he goes off to driving school, but I'm not sending him off to training until Memorial Day weekend so I have plenty of time. I think if the weather holds I could have him good at dragging things inside a week easy, then I will feel comfortable giving him a little bit of time off before "school" (although I'd bring him in a week or two before to make sure everything was good). At this point I'm seriously considering just training him myself all the way ... or perhaps just sending him off for a few weeks or a few hitches and then I can finish him. 

When I started all this I was very hesitant and intimidated by the many ways driving differed from everything I was familiar with in the horse world. I find that the more I do with Thunder, the more I ground drive him and throw milk jugs at his feet and send him over tarps, the more confidence I have in myself and in my horse. I have been religiously watching videos, reading articles, listening to podcasts every night, trying to learn as much as I can about this new world. I think I know enough to know what I don't know, and what I can't do, and I think that with the knowledge I have now I can do this without having to send him away. I still have plans to take a few more driving lessons, and spend some time around the breeder's broke horses in the coming months, to familiarize myself with all of this even more. 
@SilverMaple It's funny what they decide to be afraid of isn't it? Lol! I wanted to ground drive Thunder downtown once or twice before I actually drive him downtown for that very reason, just to get a gauge of what he spooks at and how he reacts to all the new stuff ... although he is so mellow and the last time I took him downtown, it was rush hour and he was very unimpressed with the busy traffic, police sirens, train horns and rail grinding going on at the rail yard, school busses, people walking up (or in the case of a few children, running up) to pet him, etc etc. But I like to be overprepared if at all possible, rather than underprepared. I'm sorry but I already tried to sell Thunder and just couldn't make myself do it ... but you can always come visit him and borrow him for an afternoon if you'd like. ; )

-- Kai


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@*SilverMaple* the collars I have have up to a 4 inch adjustment. With a couple I have needed every bit of that once they stopped growing. They were purchased 2" too big to fit the pad giving me 6 inches from starting work to fully grown and filled out. One pair has had their collars from their 2nd year and are still in use in their 20th. There is a newer adjustable on the market that has a 5 inch adjustment so it is possible to get even more adjustment and the cost wasn't all that much more than a standard collar. You can also go with a collar that is not leather to start until he has grown and filled out. Much cheaper and you can replace with a leather collar. If you pad the first to allow for growth and then pad the leather you could get by with two but having the breeder close I would ask if she or someone else has a collar to lend. We always soak the face in warm water and then work under a load until the horse is warm to shape the collar. This can be done each time you make adjustments if using an adjustable. The only other thing you need to worry about are hames and their fit as well as how much they can adjust. I do have a smaller hames for the smaller size and larger for the finished.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Ooookay so I need to update this thread, we've made a lot of progress since my last post. 

Since February Thunder has had an "obstacle" day, where I tossed every scary object known to man into the arena and ground drove him around/through/over everything. Tarps, feed bags, plastic bags, an umbrella, logs, balloons, milk jugs filled with pebbles, empty soda cans, and streamers were all used to great effect. Thunder was unimpressed with it all, which made me very happy, and after that we moved on to dragging things. 

First I ran the traces between his hind legs and had a helper apply pressure as he walked, so that the trace rubbed on the inside of his leg. Thunder would take a few steps and then stop and look back at me like "What are you doing, that doesn't feel right" until I fixed it. Then I attached the singletree I borrowed from his breeder and let him drag that around, in both an open and closed bridle. Next we dragged the tire, tied onto the singletree with a quick release knot in case Thunder were to panic. He didn't. We dragged that open and closed, then I hitched him to it solid and we dragged that open and closed.

Next was the logs, and it was the same concept - safety rope first, then solid hook, open and closed. During all of these exercises I did everything at the walk and the trot. Once I was reasonably certain he wasn't going to go berserk I started making things harder. When driving him with the blinders on, I would toss empty soda cans on his back, or throw a milk jug under his legs. He couldn't see those things and would only be able to feel them when they landed on his back, but (once again) he didn't panic. I had people run in front of him as he walked, and he didn't panic. I took him out onto the gravel, with both the tire and the logs, so that he could hear the noise of a different surface. I also dragged the logs and the tire on the road, and the chain scraped and make an awful racket, and he wasn't fazed. 

I'll have to get my videos uploaded to YouTube so I can link them, I've taken a whole bunch, but for now here's a few pictures. I'll have to put the rest of this update in another post, it's getting long enough already! : )

-- Kai


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

For the past few days the ground was FINALLY hard enough for me to hook up the trailer and take Thunder into town. We did this a few times last year, but he was only led with a halter, and today and yesterday I ground drove him in the closed bridle. He was magnificent, didn't spook at all even when mobbed by packs of screaming kindergartners and handled the traffic, the trains, the wind blowing flags and trash and leaves around, cars honking, dogs barking, and scary objects very well. The first few times he saw a drain in the gutter he moved to the very edge of his lane to pass it lol, but after the first few he settled and now he'll walk right over them. He's still not convinced manhole covers aren't the devil though. We crossed the pedestrian bridge today and he was mildly anxious about the river underneath him (he'd never seen a Big Moving Water before), but settled right down after a few minutes. 

We did have to spend some extra time going over a section of colored concrete - he wasn't sure WHAT that stuff was but he sure didn't want to put his feet on it. Eventually he crossed it though, and although he still will slow down and step v-e-r-y carefully over it he no longer balks or tries to go around, so I'm happy with that. We even braved the very steep, very loud, very dark underpass that dives under the railroad tracks and is always full of cars going 900 miles an hour (kidding, it's a 25 mph speed zone, but they do tend to pick up speed down the hill). I actually picked a really crappy time to do it, it was 5 pm rush hour and though I tried to look for a gap in the traffic there really wasn't one so I had to just go for it. I managed to keep Thunder at a trot the whole way, with me jogging along behind him, and he gave everything in that underpass the hairy eyeball and a snort for good measure but he trotted along nicely with no balking or spooking or acting silly. Once we'd come out the other side (me puffing very hard as I ran up the hill behind an energetically trotting, long strided woolly mammoth) I found a spot to pull over and take a rest and gave him a handful of the apple treats I always carry around in my pocket downtown, and Thunder decided that underpass wasn't too bad after all. : )

So now I'm really starting to think that I've done everything I can to prepare this guy for driving, and I really need to get a move on and buy a cart for him. I would feel totally confident hitching him tomorrow, he's been so great thus far and hasn't given me any problems. I really feel confident now that I can break him to drive completely on my own. Thunder is a very mellow guy and I've spent so much time desensitizing him to, like, everything, and while I understand it's always good to overtrain rather than undertrain, I feel like spending $500 for a month of training would at this point be a waste of money. The only thing I can think of that I haven't done yet is run poles through the shaft loops and drag them like a travois, so he can feel them on his sides, and even perhaps have someone walk behind him and hold them along his sides. Other than that, I really feel like I've done it all. 

In the beginning I was convinced that I'd never be able to do this myself .... but as I look back now at how far we've come and how much we've accomplished I can't help feeling that I can take this guy all the way. I would probably feel different if he weren't so mellow, or if he'd given me any trouble thus far, or if I hadn't spent so much time acquiring all the information that I could possibly find, but as it stands now I know I can do it. 

-- Kai


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

I don't drive mainly because I'm a big woosie pants and the very thought gives me the heebee jeebees. That being said, I'm pretty impressed with what you have accomplished with him. I will look forward to photos of him pulling a cart.
He's very handsome, by the way.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

He's come a long way! Looks great. I felt the same way until it came to farm implements. That I did spend the $$ on that training/introductions. I have never been comfortable with it but knew if I ever was to sell it would pay off. DH does most of our farm work. I just do the odd jobs now and then.


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