# sabino... possible frame? maybe?



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

It doesn't scream frame outright to me. Entirely possible her facial markings are only being caused by sabino. But with the test being only $25, it would be far better to just test and be safe.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

She doesn't scream frame to me either, and frame is fairly uncommon in AUTBs. I would test her to be safe (and test for agouti as well, because I am nosy like that...)


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Oh and frame is definitely not in Arabians


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

ok so with no frame in the intended stallion there's absolutely no chance of a lethal white foal, but I think I will test her to be safe... eventually. Just in case something else crops up as a possible sire for her future baby that does have a chance of having frame, like a QH or Paint [I like the stock type/TB cross, got a friend who has one that can jump the moon].

Regarding Agouti, the stallion I intend for her is chestnut, so the only colour possibility for the foal is chestnut [being that Magic, being chestnut, has to be ee, and the stallion also has to be ee], with varying amounts of bling depending on what white genes it does or does not inherit from its parents. But if I'm testing her for frame, I might as well test her for Agouti, to see if there is any possibility I might get a black foal out of her if I bred her to a different stallion. I like black ponies. I also like chestnuts, and bays, so regardless I'd be happy.

So the ermine marks are likely to be some other white suppression gene in play? Sabino and splash are both definitely present in the Thoroughbred breed yet we don't see many loudly marked TB's, so there has to be some gene or another that suppresses the white on them... right? [to clarify, I class frame as both white suppressive, and white causing, because it wants to keep the legs coloured]

This breeding idea I'm flinging around won't be happening for a few years yet, I really don't need a green horse to train up AND a foal to handle! Plus Her Highness has to prove herself worthy first... only reason I'm even considering it is because other than her neck and the angle of her humerus I quite like how she's built. Her feet are tiny at the moment but hey, she's a baby, there's time yet for them to get bigger.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

If I had a chestnut gelding I would still test for agouti, that's how nosy I am. The day I get a horse, it's going to be fairly bald due to pulling hair for tests lol.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

lol, I'm curious about my brown sabino gelding. Would he test positive for Sb1? Is he homozygous or hetero for black and agouti [I have no idea what colour his parents were]? Am I really right calling him brown? [he is "bay" all over except that his muzzle goes a little mealy in winter - I am pretty sure he's brown but kind of want to know for sure]

At least with Little Miss Red there's ONE thing I know for sure - that she's homozygous for red factor. And I have at least a 50% chance of her throwing sabino. Bred to a chestnut sabino stallion [namely, the stud I am most seriously considering - you might know of him? Kalody Park Beraq?], she's going to throw chestnut, and has a good chance of throwing something with a lot of white.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I am not sure if TBs have Sb1 or another mutation... But... I would test anyway lol.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

lol, the horse I'm specifically thinking of testing is an Anglo Arab, so if Sb1 exists in either breed [or both] he might have it. Magic is full TB, and I don't know that I'll bother with testing for Sabino for her. Frame fo sho, Agouti fo sho, but chances are she's hetero for Sabino, based on what I know about her bloodlines. Her sire's bloodline likes to throw bays with a little bit of white, or chestnuts with a LOT of white. Her dam's bloodline, I don't know enough about, but I've heard of a lot of horses from her damsire that are brown with no white, so statistics are in favour of Magic being heterozygous.


----------



## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

... didn't you say this filly has already had problems in two joints, or some such thing?


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Yes - that's why she has to prove herself under saddle before I send her to a stallion. She has to prove herself SOUND.

She had a stifle issue which the vet thought was possibly OCD, but I wonder if it was something else, because when I upped her protein [due to her losing weight on what she was on] the issue went away. Head vet and equine vet disagreed on xrays being necessary and the head vet vetoed the idea [I understand why he would - she has lethal hind legs and if she decided to use them...] so we don't have a definite diagnosis. However, we know what it is NOT, because high protein is one of the primary causes of OCD... her protein ration was too LOW when she was hurting.


----------



## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

I see, just had to say something as, to me, one of the greatest mysteries in life is why a person will take an unsound animal and put them into a breeding program (unless due to injury, and even then the injury could be a result of genetic predisposition or conformation)

I would still be very wary... A young animal who has joint problems, with no history of an accident or anything? Maybe it's diet, but to me, if a horse needs to be kept on a specific diet or supplements to be sound, they are not TRULY sound.

Just my 2 cents as, maybe you could tell from my breeding post, I put a lot of value in tough, resilient horses 

Either way, your filly is very cute. Best of luck with her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Soundness is absolutely paramount to me, too, don't you worry about that - if my horse is unsound in any way, physically or mentally, I will ALWAYS try to get to the bottom of it, and if the issue is related to something that I know for sure is not hereditary, I will consider breeding if the issue cannot be resolved. But I have to KNOW FOR SURE first.

She did go over the round pen fence at one point due to a mistake I made [I pushed when I should have backed off and let her settle], but did not immediately come up lame. It was a week or two later that she took the first lame step. Her lameness was very intermittent, she would have a week where she was sound as a bell bolting around the pasture being your typical young TB and then all of a sudden be running on 3 legs again with no apparent cause.

Lack of protein is a very common cause of soundness issues in young horses. Without enough protein the joints, muscles and soft tissues cannot form properly, and especially in the more active young horse, this causes problems. I think her stifle issue was my fault, for not feeding her enough protein. Now that she's on a sufficient ration, she is totally sound. Thus far. I haven't flex tested her... which will be the REAL test I think because the day the vet did the lameness exam she trotted up sound before flexing then went dog lame after. Unfortunately I can't flex test her until late Feb because on the 18th of November she stuck her leg through a fence and lacerated the extensor tendon... vet advice was that the tendon was structurally sound and the laceration only shallow, but to give her 3 months healing time before pushing the point.


----------



## PonyPainter (Aug 25, 2012)

Have her tested if you're curious just to be sure. Personally, I don't think she has Sabino going on either but get her tested.


----------



## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

pp she is absolutely classic minimal sabino - I have two of them including her - and there has to be something because any white on a horse that is not the result of scarring is because of a white gene. Be it one of the pinto genes, roan, rabicano, grey, dominant white or something thus far not isolated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

