# Joker is a debatable color! Opinions? (Pic heavy)



## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

Joker is out of a bay/zebra dun mare and a buckskin stallion. There has been some friendly debate as to what color he could actually be. He looks like a palomino dun to me, but could he be red dun? Possibly a light buttermilk buckskin dun? Anyone had one this color?

1. Light grey eyes
2. Redish cream main and tail
3. Dorsal stripe and leg barring
4. Dark hooves
5. Dark tipped ears


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm leaning towards buckskin because his tail has a reddish tinge to it and the very end is darker. Many foals have faux dun markings (dorsal stripe, zebra barring, etc) that serve as camouflage rather than their actual genetics. So I'm not sure if he's going to be just a buckskin, or if he'll be a dunskin.

Foal coats are tricky things. It'll be hard to know 100% until after he sheds it out.


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

id say buckskin dun as well, for now, but it will be easier to tell when the foal coat sheds out in a few months.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I will gues Red Dun. Whicheve he is, he is too adorable!!!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

It is always so hard to tell on ones so young because their color can change so drastically in just a few months. I think I might have to put my money on Dunskin though. With the prominent dorsal stripe and it appears to me that his legs may shed out dark.

Also, for what it's worth, this is what I got as the possibilities in the color calculator.


*Dunskin *14.06% -

*Buckskin* 14.06% -

*Bay Dun *14.06% -

*Bay *14.06% -

*Red Dun *6.25% - 

*Palomino *6.25% - 

*Dunalino *6.25% -

*Chestnut *6.25% - 

*Smoky Grullo *4.69% - 

*Smoky Black *4.69% -

*Grullo *4.69% -

*Black *4.69% -


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

Just a note, when first born, every horse (I have ever foaled) has had grey eyes, that get darker when they get older. In a month or so i bet his eyes will be brown like his parents eyes.


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## Hidalgo13 (Dec 24, 2010)

First thing that came into my mind was cremello, but then when I looked more closely, I realized his mane was too red... so no idea. :/


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

^^Cremellos also have ice blue eyes.

I'm going to guess dunskin. My reasons for saying this are: 
1. he is very young in the pictures, am I right? (a few days or less) and red based colors (palomino, dunalino, red dun in this case) have pink skin when they are this young. Joker has black/grey skin. 
2. He has a dorsal stripe that I'm confident isn't just counter shading (especially considering his mom is dun)
3. Looking closely, he does has black in his tail. My buckskin colt looked almost like a palomino when he was born, though not lacking black quite as much as Joker
















he still doesn't have very much black for a buckskin, but that is what he is, no doubt
















With my colt in mind, I don't think Joker will get much more black in his mane and tail until he sheds out...
Do you think you can get some better pictures of his tail? 

ETA: Examples of pink-skinned dunalino and palomino foals:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...en&sa=N&biw=1598&bih=815&tbm=isch&um=1&itbs=1
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...en&sa=N&biw=1598&bih=815&tbm=isch&um=1&itbs=1
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...ge=2&ndsp=33&ved=1t:429,r:21,s:30&tx=39&ty=67
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...age=1&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:19,s:0&tx=73&ty=71

and light buckskin:
http://foxtrotters.tripod.com/bambi05.htm


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Found a GREAT example of a palmino-looking buckskin filly!! 
before:
http://www.smithhomesandhorses.com/images/horses/57/08 foals 020.jpg
after:
http://www.smithhomesandhorses.com/images/horses/57/DSCF0004.JPG


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

another pale Buckskin foal for reference. Foal coats are nothing to go by. Most horses won't reach their "true" color until almost a year old when all of their foal coat has shed out.

Also the pink skinned palomino, because she is APHA, may carry Pearl. That would cause the pink skin, on a singe cream dilute (ee,Crc, prlPRL) since Pearl is a recessive gene one copy will not always cause a psudo double cream.


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

Thank you all for your replies!!! Joker has no black whatsoever in his tail - it only appears so because of shadows. That is what confuses me! No black at all! Here is a close up photo with no shadowing.


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## CrazyHorseArtist (May 12, 2011)

He could very well be a palomino dun. if his parents were both (Ee) for black there is a chance that he is indeed Cream + Dun on a chestnut base. The chance would have been small, but it is still there. Never underestimate horses. My current filly is out of two LWO parents, Yet she is alive and well.


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## KennyRogersPaints (Jan 9, 2011)

I would say palomino dun or red dun, but sometimes its pretty tricky when theyre young!


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## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

My vote is palomino.


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## Katze (Feb 21, 2011)

my vote is....*insert drumroll here*......
too fing cute for words! (I know zip about color genetics, but am expert on cuteness! XD)


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Well that tail picture stumps me. I would be all for agreeing with a dunalino, minus the black skin! I guess only time (or testing!!) will tell with this little guy. I really think you should test him now that I think of it! Is that something you might me interested in?


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## crimson88 (Aug 29, 2009)

He is very cute, if you see him missing from your barn, I won't know anything about it


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

Joker looked like he was going to be a buckskin, but is now very obviously a dark dunalino! Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts! Here are some pics and a video:


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## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

those lower legs look awful black/dark to me....you sure about the no buckskin dun? plus the roots of the mane and the tip of the tail.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm with BlackCricket. A red based horse (like a dunalino) will not have black hairs in the tail and mane.


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

Yep, I'm sure! The last pictures that are actually in the end of the video show close up what his legs look like. If you peak into his main really close you will see that it is like this really cool shade of grey, and true to his dun stripe, the gray part of his main is a strip in the middle of his white main. Also, the dark hair close to his hooves is metallic gold/grey in the sunshine.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm sorry, but I am so not seeing a red based horse in your video.


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

Here is a palomino with a grey in his mane and tail:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

That is soot on him. He doesn't have the frosting on his mane that your guy does. You guy also has black hairs in his tail. The mane on your guy is typical with frosting for buckskins and dunskins.


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

Here is a red horse with black/grey in his tail:








I've known multiple red based horses with black in manes and tails, and even in their coats.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I'm seeing a dunskin  not dunalino


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

*sigh* But NOT palominos. Not in the amount that is in your guy's mane and tail. A few black (which are actually brown as red based horses do NOT have a black gene) hairs is typical. A large portion of the tail/mane? No.


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

His mane and tail have a *GREY* center. Absolutely no black whatsoever. Look at the last photos in the end of the video, where you can see what color it is. A dark, *smutty* (as previously mentioned) grey. 
The Horse Guide: Dunalino Horse Color
These horses are all considered Dunalino.


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

Lol, okay here we go, I guess I should have looked at this to begin with. Perhaps we should look at genetics. This is her dunskin foal at one day old from last year, and Joker at one day old. She's had lots of dunskin foals, but they have all been very dark and prominantly dunskin. Joker was out of a very dark buckskin sire, and even so, he was born bright white. Also, his sire gets very high percentage palomino foals.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

AnnaLover said:


> Found a GREAT example of a palmino-looking buckskin filly!!
> before:
> http://www.smithhomesandhorses.com/images/horses/57/08 foals 020.jpg
> after:
> http://www.smithhomesandhorses.com/images/horses/57/DSCF0004.JPG


Saw pics on google of that baby under images of Dunskin horses!
Probability is much higher that is what Joker is based on a bay dun & buckskin crossing



21.97% -
Dunskin
21.97% -
Buckskin
21.97% -
Bay Dun
21.97% -
Bay
1.56% -
Red Dun
1.56% -
Palomino
1.56% -
Dunalino
1.56% -
Chestnut
1.46% -
Smoky Grullo
1.46% -
Smoky Black
1.46% -
Grullo
1.46% -
Black


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

The Equine Coat Color Calculator is accurate, but genetically there are so many variables that it can only be accurate to a very low point. For instance, these are the probabilities for a cross between two buckskin horses: 

43.95% - ​*Buckskin *21.97% - ​*Perlino *21.97% - ​*Bay *3.13% - ​*Palomino *2.93% - ​*Smoky Black *1.56% - ​*Cremello *1.56% - ​*Chestnut *1.46% - ​*Smoky Cream *1.46% - ​*Black *


And yet, I've crossed my buckskin stallion with three buckskins in the past, and each time the cross yielded a palomino, even though it is only a 3.13% chance. Unless you have detailed genetic tests, the Equine Coat Calculator can only give you an approximate *guess*. I love to use the calculator, but it's wrong almost every time, and we've had a LOT of babies. I would SO have loved to have this colt tested, but he broke his leg playing about a month ago and we had to bury him. I have another full sibling coming in a couple months. I'm hoping it is the same color so I can have it tested and post the results. The point remains; despite what seems to be the popular opinion, I have absolutely no doubt of his color now. 

I can see why there is cause for deliberation; online, it is difficiult to tell. If you were to come and see him, there wouldn't be a doubt. The matter remains unchanged; he was a palomino with a dorsal stripe, dark golden legs and a grey stripe in his mane and tail. The grey stripes are very distinctly NOT black. That is, in fact, the accurate description of a dunalino horse. It is also statistically consistant with the get of his sire, who only sires palomino on buckskin mares.

Of course, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it doesn't change a color from red to blue.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Is there any particular reason you are so against the idea of him being a dunskin..?


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## HollyJane (Feb 11, 2011)

Lol! I'm sorry. Sometimes I like to point and say "Blue!" when someone tells me the sky is green. Call it human err to experience a jerk of annoyance and correct the offender, lol. (no offense) 

Actually, buckskin is my favorite color. In my completely objective scientific opinion, having seeing the horse up close and personal, based on my own research, I conclude fully that he shows all the characteristics of a dunalino. However, I can see why others may form an alternate opinion based on these pictures and video. I regret letting it shock me so. 

I do know color genetics pretty well, and am especially familiar with the history of his parents offspring, and have done my fair share of research on the dunalino color since he first shed out. It's a hobby. Having actually observed the horse in the flesh, it is my objective conclusion that Joker was a dunalino. I posted the pictures to let all who were interested see the mystery solved. Forgive my sense of self, but I was taken by surprise at the contradictive air. 

Why am I against him being buckskin? Because he's not a buckskin, lol!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Congratulations. Protip - If you don't want someone to disagree with you, don't post on a public forum because, at some point, they will. 

The only other thing I can say on this is post pictures of him in a few more months and either the folks here will stand corrected or you will. Simple.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

That or get him tested...


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## Starryeyed (Oct 20, 2008)

She posted above that the colt has passed away and therefore cant be tested. Sad, he was drop dead gorgeous.


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## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

I can show you horses that look black that are palomino or chestnut...horses that look brown who are actually brown with creme...horses that look flaxen chestnut that are wild bay silver....phenotype and genotype don't always visually match up in some cases like we think they should. I've got a friend with a chestnut that for all the world looks like a red dun...crisp dorsal, leg barring and all..but she tested no for dun.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Just throwing this out there.....my dunalino colt had black at the very tip of his tail....about half the hairs growing out of the base of his tail were black/grey. And when I first got him, his legs were almost black. His coat got super bleached out this year, so he's more of an orangy than anything else.


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## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

cough cough ignore my post, totally read a post wrong, thought it said that red bases can't have black, my bad.


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

HollyJane said:


> Joker is out of a bay/zebra dun mare and a buckskin stallion. There has been some friendly debate as to what color he could actually be. He looks like a palomino dun to me, but could he be red dun? Possibly a light buttermilk buckskin dun? Anyone had one this color?
> 
> 1. Light grey eyes
> 2. Redish cream main and tail
> ...


What a handsome little guy 
so cute love his color 
his may change as he gets older


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## missnashvilletime (Dec 20, 2011)

I want to say red dun with a creme gene, I think it's called amber dun? Very cute either way


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## missnashvilletime (Dec 20, 2011)

http://www.ichregistry.com/images/RTTL-foal1.jpg
http://www.horsegroomingsupplies.com/pictures/files/1/1/0/1/6/d1_745175.jpg <-Amber dun babies


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

Beautiful.....may turn darker.....palomino, buckskin, pinkish roan....love love love!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Missnashvilletime in order to be an Amber Dun the horse has to have the champagne gene. The horse in question does not so is not an Amber Dun.


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## ALittleBitOfSaint (Dec 22, 2011)

Could he be champagne colored?

  Homozygous-Horses  |  Internet Directory  |  Champagne gene Horses


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## missnashvilletime (Dec 20, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Missnashvilletime in order to be an Amber Dun the horse has to have the champagne gene. The horse in question does not so is not an Amber Dun.


Yeah I know the genetics behind an amber dun, however, I did not know she posted his genetic testing....Sorry


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

red dun w/ cream gene is palomino dun. From the first pics I would have guessed red dun, followed by palomino dun, but on the more recent ones he looks like a very light buckskin (could be buckskin dun, couldn't see enough). It is true that a palomino/palomino dun could have some black/gray in their manes/tails, they don't 'usually' come out that way. I think if he'd have managed to grow up he'd have ended up with alot more black. 

The pic of her previous 'dunskin' looks like a normal bay dun to me. The color calculator gives the statistics of what is most likely to be produced, BUT ANY color listed is possible!

Honestly the only way to know w/out a doubt would have been to have him tested. Without it you have to go off what you see, if he'd have been mine I'd have called him a buckskin.


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## ElaineLighten (Jan 1, 2012)

oh my god he is stunning!


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## Iain (Jan 3, 2012)

I'd for sure say buckskin.... The red really brings that out. I'm red green colorblind, and I can still see that red


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