# WooHoo! Tell it Mr. Trocha.



## SocietyJoe (Jan 21, 2011)

HA, no sugar coating that answer. 

Everything he said is so true!


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Afraid I'm a cynic and suspect that email was written by him for the purpose and not received as he said. (Not so) hidden agenda anyone?

It's shame that it's so much about money and egos and the values are being missed. He's bashing NH to push his own 'club', books etc, and yet he uses the same methods with his horses. Once again the them and us, whack 'em or fairy kisses mentality. I've got no issue with him bashing NH or anything else, but to bash something at least focus on what the problem is rather than just perpetuating confusion and ignorance.

Middle ground anyone?


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Doe, 

Here's a step towards a middle ground. 

First of all, for many reasons, I dislike the term NH whether it's self applied or applied by others. There's good horsemanship and there's bad horsemanship, neither is natural or unnatural. 

Some of the self described natural horseman have very interesting insights into equine behavior, and very interesting methods, and we can learn from them. I may not want to endorse the entire method or program, but there are useful things I can incorporate with my own methods. 

The self described NH people, particularly those who talk about "bonding" tend to appeal to a certain type of amatuer horseperson. In the hunter world, we would talk about those amateur in terms of 4 Fs - forty, fat, fearful and female.
Is the goofy woman in that email applying NH techniques correctly? Of course not. Is it the NH practitioner's fault? No. Is it really a valid example of the method? Nope. But the fact of the matter is, a lot of NH trainers or in general, people who want to sell DVDs, *know* that that's their market. 

Some of them even exploit that market. 

When I think of NH, I think of a 4F I know very carefully demonstrating some of the groundwork exercises from a training DVD and immediately afterward allowing the horse to walk all over her begging for handfed treats. She was blissfully unaware of the contridictions in her actions. 

Does this make the excercise on the training DVD bad, wrong or less than useful? Nope. What it does mean is that it's pretty hard to turn a timid, tentative horsewoman with romantic delusions into an assertive, effective horsetrainer.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I read this yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it!


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## Annnie31 (May 26, 2011)

If the trainer actually got a letter....and it contained the problems, and insight, he described then I would actually agree 100 percent with him. I do have a tendancy to think it was a bit of a tall tale tho. 
As I have said before I study many and follow no one....and in this case I think Doe might be right about it being a bit of a hidden agenda.
Worst case scenario from NH type person vs Trainer? Mind you if you send your nice quiet horse out to a terrible trainer they can become a total basket case too, that doesnt mean no one should use a trainer either, and yes I have seen it happen.
Unfortunately most people look for trainers based on success. Whether it be Clinton Anderson who is world renowned or Stephen Reams of Ellerbe, North Carolina, who trained the mare that won the World show in Junior Western Pleasure, there are good and bad so called wanna be's in both training methods,
and another point I need to make is just because a trainer has won a class or two it doesnt make them a good trainer...its the how they got there that matters to the person needing their horse rode.
The worst problem of the whole darn training industry is that ordinary people with hopes and dreams for their ordinary horses end up having to decide who to send their horses to for training....and they dont always luck out with a good one in either.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Actually, I don't think his email was all that bad. I didn't see anything offensive there. 

Funny enough I contacted him years go to get his opinion on chronic rearer (NOT my horse, but the owner tried to push me on working with him), and he suggested to give up and get rid of him (very logical I have to say). The end result was that horse sent another rider to ER. I don't think they ever got rid of him though.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

*claps hands* Love it.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Subbing


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## gigem88 (May 10, 2011)

Whether the email was genuine or not, he gave very good advice! I agree with him 1000000%!


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Judging by the other emails in his newsletter, I would think this one is real.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Love it! Totally Love it!


It is scary to me that someone who supports NH would be willing to say that he has said anything incorrect. I would think if you are a follower of any of the NH gurus you would want people like Sue to stop proclaiming their way of ruining perfectly good horses is NH.






maura said:


> In the hunter world, we would talk about those amateur in terms of 4 Fs - forty, fat, fearful and female.


Hey, I resemble that remark.  :lol:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Love the article!!

Who cares if the e-mail is based on a ficticious problem, or not. We ALL know owner/horse situations just like her....don't we?? The people who carry NH principles to such an axtreme that they have lost track of true equine behavior in the desire to anthropomorphize a horse's needs/behavior? I sure have. And, yes, they can and DO produce dangerous horses.

I am not bashing NH training ( I, too, hate this seperating label), I use many of their techniques. I just think some carry it to extreme.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

"Damned if I wasn't right!" Even my non-horsey boyfriend thought that was a good one.

I like this because he isn't just being snarky, he genuinely _cares_ and wants the woman to realize how _dangerous_ this is. He offered wonderfully insightful advice. Great read.. thanks for posting.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Doe said:


> Afraid I'm a cynic and suspect that email was written by him for the purpose and not received as he said. (Not so) hidden agenda anyone?
> 
> It's shame that it's so much about money and egos and the values are being missed. He's bashing NH to push his own 'club', books etc, and yet he uses the same methods with his horses. Once again the them and us, whack 'em or fairy kisses mentality. I've got no issue with him bashing NH or anything else, but to bash something at least focus on what the problem is rather than just perpetuating confusion and ignorance.
> 
> Middle ground anyone?


Sorry, but the "methods" she appeared to use were NOT Natural Horsemanship. She had a very skewed view of the NH methods and applied them completely incorrectly.


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## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

FANTASTIC! It really doens't matter if it was a marketing trick to express his views and get people interested in his training DVDs. SOMEONE needs to talk some sense into those owners who have taken NH and distorted it into some way to have a super special mystical love relationship with your horse. I too have seen way too many (usually middle age) women think they're going to fulfill their childhood dream of owning a horse and having a fantasty type of bond with it. These are the women who end up seriously hurt, with husbands blaming the good for nothing screwed up horse, and shipping them off when they can't be fixed. 

A little bit of honesty is a good thing, even if that cuts into the bottom line of those in the industry that help to perpetuate the "fantasy" of owning a horse.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think the point to remember is Mr. Trocha is not necessarily bashing NH, he's bashing the *******ized form of NH that people cling to - the belief that it's all about love and rainbows and never ever hitting your horse. Anyone who's ACTUALLY watched a "NH trainer" will realize that's not true whatsoever - just because they're not whipping them to death in the corner of a stall doesn't mean they never dish out physical discipline. Popping the horse with the metal clip under the jaw, slapping them in the side of the head when they refuse to move out of your space - how is it any different from giving them a wack in the hindquarter with a leadrope?

Again though, the NH thing is just irritating. Every single good trainer worth his salt uses a certain amount of "NH type" methods - and most don't feel it necessary to brag about how superior they are to others or point out what sort of "special" training they're using. Training is training, end of story. You don't call parenting by 6 different names do you? The "Never Say No" mom, the "Spank You Silly" mom, the "Ignore It Til It Stops" mom? I didn't think so.

I have no doubts whatsoever that the e-mail is true - based solely on just how many threads I've seen on this forum alone written EXACTLY the same. "Oh my horse tried to bite me, is she mad at me?" "No, she's dominating you, don't let her be aggressive." "Oh she's not aggressive, she's just upset, she'd NEVER HURT ME!" 

Famous last words? And we hear them constantly, so I don't know how anyone could doubt that someone wrote this e-mail. Even if he DID invent it, he's invented it BASED on the thousands of e-mails he's gotten during his career. Even if "Sue" doesn't exist, every single scenario he's written about HAS happened, and he HAS been asked about, you can guarantee yourself of that!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> Who cares if the e-mail is based on a ficticious problem, or not.


I believe all his "emails" are for real. He IS straight and rough, but then I don't see the point of sugar-coating when it comes to the safety and training.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

As I have said before (and will say it again) back in the days of the Terradactyle we did not have "Nantural Horsementship." We just trained horses and tried to read the horse to get the best results and no one got killed and we ended up with training progress and good horses. 

I enjoyed reading this and I too agree that Mr. Trocha has it right. 

That being said, I honestly have NEVER thought a horse "loved" me. Do people really think that? I have had horses that seem to enjoy having me around (I always thought they found amusement in me working and doing things like removing manure and putting down bedding). 

As to bonds.. I really don't like that word. It is OK with dogs.. but horses.. not so much. I find a horse will become accustomed to you and become expectant of certain things but bond? Horses DO bond to each other but not so much to people. IME you bring a treat every time you see a horse, that horse will be looking for you but the reason has nothing to do with 'love' and everything to do with the treat! 

IOW's there really is no Flicka, Fury or Black Stallion..... 
..and if Mr. Ed could REALLY talk he would likely say things most folks would not want to hear!!!


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## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

Elana, don't ruin my personal fantasty! I still _want to believe _Zee loves me and we have a "bond", but that doesn't stop me from giving him a good crack whenever he thinks it a good time to challenge with!


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Zimpatico said:


> Elana, don't ruin my personal fantasty! I still _want to believe _Zee loves me and we have a "bond", but that doesn't stop me from giving him a good crack whenever he thinks it a good time to challenge with!


Can you also dance around him with a stick and give him cookies if he dares defy you?!


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## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

Equilove said:


> Can you also dance around him with a stick and give him cookies if he dares defy you?!


Cookies only after he gets smacked and yelled at, then gives me pouty face. I'm a sucker... ROTFL!

Funny story about the sticks. I once boarded for a couple of weeks at a "name brand NH" barn because it was close and had amazing pastures & trails. At the time, I didn't really know what this particular name meant to its followers and how crazy some of these follwers are. I was slowly informed that I do not use the correct equipment. Namely, rope halters, carrot stick, etc... I caved and got a rope halter since they handled the turnout to make them happy. I said I have a stick, it's called a dressage whip! OMG, they were totally offended that I did not buy the approved name brand rope halter, and the fancy carrot stick was NOTHING like a dressage whip. Um, yeah, ok... I realized after about three weeks there was no way I could make it work at that barn. Sorry, but I had to give up the gorgeous pastures. I think I was the only boarder there that actually RODE their horse. Heaven forbid...

Oh, and I still get the emails about "play dates" at other area name-that-will-not-be-mentioned barns! No thank you!


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm not advocating either view but I am curious as to why people think dogs, cats etc can form bonds with humans but horses cannot?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

I don't think any animal really "bonds" to us the way we think they do, or at least they certainly don't feel as strongly towards us as we do towards them. They don't think the same way we do, imagining the future, comtemplating the past, and analyzing our feelings. I think they might get attached to us, knowing that they enjoy their life when we're around, but they are too "in the moment" to think about it beyond that...


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Dresden said:


> I'm not advocating either view but I am curious as to why people think dogs, cats etc can form bonds with humans but horses cannot?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Prey/predator. Have you ever tried to gain the affection of a deer?

It isn't that they can't bond at all. Horses just "bond" in different ways than dogs and cats.


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

Equilove said:


> Prey/predator. Have you ever tried to gain the affection of a deer?
> 
> It isn't that they can't bond at all. Horses just "bond" in different ways than dogs and cats.


I'm just trying to understand as I hear this a lot. So rabbits-domesticated variety- cannot bond either? Or any other prey animal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

Dresden said:


> I'm just trying to understand as I hear this a lot. So rabbits-domesticated variety- cannot bond either? Or any other prey animal?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you consider the way a rabbit responds to you as opposed to a dog, even the most domesticated rabbit, it is very different.


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## Carleen (Jun 19, 2009)

Loved it! Thanks for posting, smrobs! :clap:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I also don't believe that it's a fake e-mail. Like others have said, I've seen the exact same thing too many times both here and in my outside life to believe that he didn't get a letter exactly like this.

Dresden, it's not that certain animals _can_ bond and others _can't_. I'll be the first to admit that horses certainly do bond to certain people. However, they don't bond like people, they don't bond like dogs, and they don't bond like cats, they bond like _horses_. The biggest problem people run into is when they try to make horses into something that they aren't. 

People try to rationalize the horse's every action the way that you would with a human by attributing those actions to some human emotion like love, jealousy, or bitterness. Horses are horses, nothing more, nothing less. Expecting them to change their instinct or nature to fit our ideas of how they should act, feel, or respond is like asking a leopard to change it's spots. It's just not going to happen. That's exactly why you have to train them like a _horse_, not like a dog or a child.


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## Dresden (Jun 24, 2011)

Smrobs, that makes complete sense to me. My hesitation was with statements indicating certain animals can bond and certain others cannot. All animals should be related to as what they are. My cat responds to things differently than my dogs. She must be trained like a cat. Your explanation seems like common sense but I couldn't find any logic in some animals can, some can't. They are, after all, all animals. Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

I absolutely believe my horse is bonded to me and completely worships the ground on which I walk. I am, after all, the Benevolent Provider Of Food.

Take his gut out of the equation, I guess he kinda likes me. I make the fan turn on.


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## Zimpatico (Nov 5, 2010)

coffeegod said:


> I absolutely believe my horse is bonded to me and completely worships the ground on which I walk. I am, after all, the Benevolent Provider Of Food.
> 
> Take his gut out of the equation, I guess he kinda likes me. I make the fan turn on.


Ditto... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

coffeegod said:


> Take his gut out of the equation, I guess he kinda likes me. I make the fan turn on.


This made me laugh way too hard.

So true.

The giver of all the wonderful moving air.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Huge like to coffeegod. Definitely true.

Dogs are different then virtually any other animal - even a feline bond is much more like an equine bond, in that you are only there to serve belly rubs and food. My cats will ***** their bellies to anyone who walks by, they really don't have any high opinion of me in particular. My horse is much the same - they often prefer me, and fully trust me, but they'll take a carrot and scritch from any ol' Joe that walks by!

You could starve a dog and never pet him a day in his life and he still worships the ground you walk on. He's also a very loyal pet. However, how many centuries have we been breeding dogs for this specific purpose? They are probably one of the oldest fully domesticated animals. They've been running alongside man since the dawn of time, whereas horses only very recently became anything remotely close to a pet. 

I would say in the purest sense, dogs are the only animal to form actual "bonds" in a sense that a dog is well known to pine away into ill health and even death when his owner dies. My grandpa could never go on vacation because his Newfoundland would waste away, refusing to eat, the entire time he was gone. And this was a farm dog who never even came inside! 

I think when it comes to bonds, when you can buy or sell a horse with no real repercussions, that tells you right there how tenacious that bond is. I raised my gelding from birth and re-homed him when he was 17, and he couldn't care less. Someone still feeds him and loves him, that's good enough for him!


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

I think I have a new "hero." I've never been much for being a bleeding heart. 

When I first got Dancer, she was a holy terror. She ran over people, she charged the gate, she would NOT stand for the farrier. 

I don't put up with nonsense, and it wasn't long before I started cracking down on her bad habits. Walk too close behind me, or try to get in front of me? That's what my lunge whip or riding crop is for. WHACK! Charge me when I put out her feed tub? No way - WHACK!

She learned pretty quick that I was nothing like her previous owner, who tried to "reason" with Dancer to get her to load in the trailer. I let her previous owner have her way, and after three hours, Dancer allowed herself to be lured into the trailer with a LOT of horse cookies. I'm not spending three hours trying to reason a horse into a trailer. Fortunately, Dancer seemed to be able to translate the WHACKs from misbehaving on the lead rope and around the feed tub into "better get in the trailer quick before I get another WHACK!"

Am I hurting Dancer? Nope. I don't have to hit her any harder than it takes to get her attention. And - it rarely takes more than one WHACK to achieve the desired result.

Dancer now follows me around quite well. She's not afraid of me at all - I am the giver of food, treats (yup, guilty of that from time to time) water and scratches right where it itches. She will stand to be saddled, stand like a rock when I mount (from the mounting block - but I do need someone to hold the lead rope - she's still a work in progress folks). 

Dancer still has her "moments," but they are only moments. She knows I mean business when I say no!

I do NOT believe that horses love us - not like our dogs do. (Not even sure the dogs _love,_ it could just be a strong pack association.) However, when I broke my foot on that trail ride, I have no explanation for Dancer's odd behavior. She refused to leave me alone. I really got tired of her nose in my ear! The only thing I can think of is she thought: "Crap! I messed up somehow, and now my meal ticket may want to get rid of me! I'd better suck up big time!"


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## zurmdahl (Feb 25, 2009)

There was a woman who boarded at the same barn as I do a year or so ago and she was pretty much exactly the same as the woman who wrote the e-mail. I noticed that slowly but surely her horse would get more and more frustrated with the 'games' she would play with him. He hated it, and she would never correct him for being rude. She also thought it would be a good idea to make him gallop around a round pen like a psycho and make him keep running and running. Well, what happened was he decided he'd had enough and attempted to jump the fence which was probably about 6 feet tall. He ended up getting his leg caught in it and to be honest I'm amazed he didn't break anything. 

After that, you would think she would maybe change things around, right? Nope! She kept doing the same thing and instead of trying to jump out of the pen, he would charge at her instead. It is the most terrifying thing to watch, he will come inches from her and honestly looks like he wants to kill her. She doesn't even do anything, just stands there. I wouldn't be surprised if he did kill her one day, people like this really need to think twice about their methods and just how safe they really are.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Huge like to coffeegod. Definitely true.
> 
> Dogs are different then virtually any other animal - even a feline bond is much more like an equine bond, in that you are only there to serve belly rubs and food. My cats will ***** their bellies to anyone who walks by, they really don't have any high opinion of me in particular. My horse is much the same - they often prefer me, and fully trust me, but they'll take a carrot and scritch from any ol' Joe that walks by!
> 
> ...


Wow hasn't this thread took off! I posted this morning on page 1 and now it's how long?? Fantastic lol

Anyway, I will look forward to reading all the posts tomorrow when I get chance, however meantime in response to the dogs/horse thing I must say it's not that simple.

The relationship with domesticated animals is largely based upon time spent. Many animals once domesticated show the same allegiance, from gorillas to tigers. Dogs are simply part of our lives. They live with us. We walk them etc. Horses generally do not spend the same time 'just following' even if working animals. Also our approach to training is different. It all has impacts. Species is not the predominant factor.

I've had a house trained cat that knew the words for every room and would go there if I asked, as well as using the toilet instead of a cat tray. I found a house trained tortoise who would hiss at the door to go for a wee (larder found the lovely old couple who owned him before the Great Escape), and a guinea pig that clucked when he wanted to go for a walk. I've also had an ocelot that I took for walks off leash as as dog, and several llamas and alpacas that act like geese.

The largest animals I have worked with are the elephant and the giraffe and if you think horses are a problem, trust me Giraffes are mules on stilts!!!

As this very morning reminded me as I worked with a very cute Shetland pony......people have this habit of effecting their approach based on size. That is why we have so many unruly angry little dogs. Owners take German shepherds or Rottweilers seriously, but little dogs they just pick up if they misbehave.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I too have found the 4 Fs the most difficult to deal with. They have or are in the processing of turning their horses into spoiled horses. My first question is "what do you want from this horse" And the answer is "I want him/her to love me". Many times I've given a speech similar to Mr. Trocha's. They too don't seem to realize the danger they are in by not demanding respect. One woman's horse came this close to knocking her down with her shoulder. The horse's attention was elsewhere so had it knocked the lady down she'd likely have been stepped on too. I grabbed the lead to get the horse's attention and what did I hear "don't hurt her, she's having an off day." I handed her the leadshank and left. She had shut out everything I had told her about how she was the one responsible for turning her horse into what it had become. It was when she happened to witness someone else's horse do the same thing that the light went on.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Love that article! I read that one the other day in my email..... I'm glad to see so many people reacting the same as I did!


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## DejaVu (Jul 6, 2011)

I love it!!!!

Haha he was seriously blunt, and that's what more trainers need to be like.

As far as natural horsemanship goes- it doesn't truly exist IMHO. But understanding equine logic and common sense does. The second you put a halter on that horse, everything natural goes away. If natural horsemanship really existed, all horses would be wandering aimlessly through their pastures, untouched, and just being horses.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

smrobs said:


> I also don't believe that it's a fake e-mail. Like others have said, I've seen the exact same thing too many times both here and in my outside life to believe that he didn't get a letter exactly like this.
> 
> Dresden, it's not that certain animals _can_ bond and others _can't_. I'll be the first to admit that horses certainly do bond to certain people. However, they don't bond like people, they don't bond like dogs, and they don't bond like cats, they bond like _horses_. The biggest problem people run into is when they try to make horses into something that they aren't.
> 
> People try to rationalize the horse's every action the way that you would with a human by attributing those actions to some human emotion like love, jealousy, or bitterness. Horses are horses, nothing more, nothing less. Expecting them to change their instinct or nature to fit our ideas of how they should act, feel, or respond is like asking a leopard to change it's spots. It's just not going to happen. That's exactly why you have to train them like a _horse_, not like a dog or a child.


This is what I was trying to say.. thought I did.. but I often assume too much when I post.. LOL



MacabreMikolaj said:


> Huge like to coffeegod. Definitely true.
> 
> Dogs are different then virtually any other animal - even a feline bond is much more like an equine bond, in that you are only there to serve belly rubs and food. My cats will ***** their bellies to anyone who walks by, they really don't have any high opinion of me in particular. My horse is much the same - they often prefer me, and fully trust me, but they'll take a carrot and scritch from any ol' Joe that walks by!
> 
> ...


I added the emphasis. 

I have bought and sold many a horse with no ill effects to the horse. I missed them way more than they missed me. 

My dog was another story. She was a German Shepherd from imported stock (1992). When I got divorced my land lord allowed my 4 cats and allowed the dog, but only when I was home. That meant I had her weekends and my parents had her weekdays. She became my Father's hearing dog (after years of herding cattle) and she did her job very well, but she was always MY Dog. For the first year she lived at my parents when she was not working of sleeping she was sitting in the sliding glass door looking down the driveway for me to come back. 

NO HORSE on EARTH would do that. 

I have some pretty loyal cats too.. but they are not normal and I make no claims when it comes to those cats!!!


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## DejaVu (Jul 6, 2011)

I never really thought about how horses don't _love_ us, but it's true now that I've heard it said. 


I have a steady, respectful _partnership_ with my horse. We're a _team._ We're not obsessed lovers. He respects me, honors my space, and does what I say without hesitation. I'm the leader. He believes me when I say to do something. Not out of fear, but out of respect, and knowledge that I mean what I say, and won't intentionally lead him to danger.

I take him out for a little schooling session, give him a pat, get him in the barn, clean him off, and give him his grain. He walks out to his pasture to go graze with the other horses. Ride over. That's our day. Safe and productive. No love fest, but a respectful partnership. I give him a cue, he does it. Lookie there, mission accomplished.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Elana said:


> NO HORSE on EARTH would do that.
> 
> I have some pretty loyal cats too.. but they are not normal and I make no claims when it comes to those cats!!!


Horses and dogs are different in terms of their feeding. However as I said I have to disagree. Just because you have not seem it nor experienced it doesn't mean it does not happen.

As you contradict yourself, cats are meant (according to popular belief) to be THE most independent species. 

Maybe consider, species is not the issue, maybe handling and training is.....


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## horseloverd2 (Jan 23, 2009)

I loved it! Most of it anyway. I can't say I agree that horses don't love. I know of too many real life experiences of horses doing things that couldn't have been done out of anything but love. I don't know if I could honestly say my mare Shannon loves me in the truest sense, but she'll try anything for me and when I left for a month she kicked her pasture/stall door to the point it broke. Hasn't done it since I've come back. She also gets protective of me at times. And if anyone says something about feeding... she actually will walk away from the person who feeds her if she doesn't want him around. She always comes up to me even though I almost never feed her.

But even so, the main thing our relationship runs on is respect, not love. Respect first. Love might come later.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Doe said:


> Horses and dogs are different in terms of their feeding. However as I said I have to disagree. Just because you have not seem it nor experienced it doesn't mean it does not happen.
> 
> As you contradict yourself, cats are meant (according to popular belief) to be THE most independent species.
> 
> Maybe consider, species is not the issue, maybe handling and training is.....


Oh no... cats are not the most independent species.. HUMANS are... 
(ever try to train a teenager or a man? OK.. I am teasing.. well.. sorta).

I boarded my cats with someone for 4 weeks (long vacation one year). I came back and only ONE remembered me... and he gave me a look and it took him a bit.. They all remembered when I got them home (they are more connected to environment than to the humans in the environment). 

That being said, when I allowed another human being to live here that person said the cats would start lining up in the window an hour before I was due home. 

That person was largely untrainable AND not loyal in the end and so I rehomed him and got a dog.... Yup... turned him out one night and 'suggested' that returning would not be in his best interest... as noted above, his "free" ride here was OVER. :lol:


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Let me propose the first of a series of questions I would love to ask.

1) For all those such as the quoted trainer......they all commonly spout the model of the lead mare. The horse that the others respect and follow. Apparently. Ok assuming that is so, then why if you are basing training on such horse psychology does the horse not follow you, and why do you knock methods that focus on following at liberty? After all if the dominant mare (according to your argument) leaves , the others would naturally follow surely?


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I personally have never spouted anything about "lead mare" when discussing training. I just train the horse. I don't worry about who is leading and who is following. I don'tworry about who is dominant and who is not. I just trake the individual and train that individual. 

Read the horse.. and the horse will verify if what you are doing is working or not. 

I am not training a herd. I am training one horse. If it is working, we progress in a calm and orderly fashion. If not, then I need to do something different so that we do progress in a calm and orderly fashion. 

Like I said.. I never heard of "natural horsemenship" back in the dinosaur days. We had a horse. The horse had to be trained. You did that as efficiently and as calmly and safely as possible. 

Sometimes the right tool was a single sharp word and a smack with a crop and sometimes the right tool was a carrot and a soothing stroke on the neck and a low word or two. The horse let me know which choice I should make.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

How many people that spout "lead mare" and "following at liberty" actually have watched a herd of horses interact? I have been living quite closely with six head of horses. My yard is thier yard and I can see them out the window of my living quarters. I have begun to question the whole "lead mare" thing. Any one horse may lead the others if the horse leaves like he/she knows where they are going. If any of the horses are in a position to drive off another horse they do it. They drive each other off from time to time. The horse that most will refer to as the "lead mare" is often just the nastiest, meanest horse in the bunch and not necessarily the leader. If I catch any of the horses and lead them off the other horses are very likely to follow. Not because they think they can't live without them but simply because thier afraid the horse I'm leading off might get a better patch of grass. 

If horses were people they would be the worse kind of people. Greedy, selfish, tempermental and flighty. However, as animals go they are fantastic BECAUSE of the things that will make them bad people.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Sorry for the double post but I also think that the person that wrote the e-mail is a member of this forum and has posted many times in the horse training sub forum.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Kevins -you are so right about horses. They are very opportunistic *******s.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I loved Mr Tocha's reply. Heres the thing that cracked me up though.....

Afraid I'm a cynic and suspect that email was written by him for the purpose and not received as he said. (Not so) hidden agenda anyone?

It's shame that it's so much about money and egos and the values are being missed. He's bashing NH to push his own 'club', books etc, and yet he uses the same methods with his horses. Once again the them and us, whack 'em or fairy kisses mentality. I've got no issue with him bashing NH or anything else, but to bash something at least focus on what the problem is rather than just perpetuating confusion and ignorance.

Middle ground anyone?

How about that for the knee jerk reaction of someone who has read something that has hit a nerve and is now on holiday - sailing down the river De-nile!

People ruin horses. That is a fact, anyone who has spent a lot of time around people with horses will know a horse wrecker. Personally I know a woman who has made EVERY horse she has ever owned buck. I am not exaggerating, sometimes it is only a matter of weeks before the horse starts bucking, with some of her horses its taken them a couple of months. She is absolutely dis-illusioned by the number of horrible, lying people out there who keep telling her they are selling her nice safe horses. I am NOT KIDDING when I say that I don't even bother trying to remember the name of her latest purchase because her horse turn over is so quick. And what absolutely gobsmacks me about her situation is that she has NOT ONCE asked "am I doing something wrong, could it be me?" 

Bad horsemanship is bad horsemanship regardless of the umbrella it is being performed under. An individual can be a bad horseman while using NH methods. Just as an individual can be a bad horseman using different methods. Results speak for themselves. 

My absolutely favourite thread in this section is called:

Every rider IS a trainer -- every time you interact with a horse
Read more: Horse Training

All of the "Sue's" (if that is in fact your real name) on this forum need to read this thread and then start asking themselves the hard question ie:

How can I change MY behaviour so my horse will become better behaved too. This, I believe, is what Mr Tocha's point is. 
​


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Sorry for the double post but I also think that the person that wrote the e-mail is a member of this forum and has posted many times in the horse training sub forum.


Hmmmm.....


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## ScharmLily (Nov 23, 2009)

Ahhh, the ever persistent "only rise to the lowest standard" response. If horses kick and bite eachother then we should do the same.....despite the fact that we are the more intelligent being that is capable of using our MIND to formulate a better response. Is the woman in the letter wrong in her handling of the horse?- of course! However, the response is just someone who exploits the situation to bash all NH methods because of the misrepresentation of one woman...trainers will often use the lack of success of those who apply the concepts wrong to validate their own use of violence. 

Now, I do not describe myself as a NH trainer...mainly because the allusion of the "4 F's" as someone posted, is all too prevalent and not what I want to be grouped with. However, even worse than this, in my opinion, is the old-school horse "trainer" who is so stuck in their ways that they couldn't navigate out with a GPS. These people are the ones that just perpetuate gross mishandling of the horse, and are usually the type that give horses problems such as what was stated in the letter (and drugs to sell them as "quiet and trained" too). IMO it is much easier to earn the respect of an unruly horse than it is to take away the fear that comes from a lifetime of abuse and violence.

I won't even go into the tone of the letter but to say that it is immature and childish at best, and only further supports the "rise to the lowest standard" mentality. A truly good horseperson and spokesperson would use their knowledge and mastery of language to formulate a response that would evoke thought and teach the ignorant, rather than put people into defense mode by insulting them repeatedly.

Just my 2 cents.....


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

ScharmLily said:


> Ahhh, the ever persistent "only rise to the lowest standard" response. *If horses kick and bite eachother then we should do the same.....despite the fact that we are the more intelligent being that is capable of using our MIND to formulate a better response.* Is the woman in the letter wrong in her handling of the horse?- of course! However, the response is just someone who exploits the situation to bash all NH methods because of the misrepresentation of one woman...trainers will often use the lack of success of those who apply the concepts wrong to validate their own use of violence.
> 
> Now, I do not describe myself as a NH trainer...mainly because the allusion of the "4 F's" as someone posted, is all too prevalent and not what I want to be grouped with. However, even worse than this, in my opinion, is the old-school horse "trainer" who is so stuck in their ways that they couldn't navigate out with a GPS. These people are the ones that just perpetuate gross mishandling of the horse, and are usually the type that give horses problems such as what was stated in the letter (and drugs to sell them as "quiet and trained" too). IMO it is much easier to earn the respect of an unruly horse than it is to take away the fear that comes from a lifetime of abuse and violence.
> 
> ...


It isn't about what WE understand, it's about what the horse understands. What you are considering "violence", the horses sees as a means of gaining respect. Unfortunately, the horse doesn't recognize coddling and carrot sticks as a reason to respect a being half their size. You have to earn it, and that typically means proving you're a worthwhile leader. No, you don't need to beat a horse to make it respect you, but if a horse kicks at me or tries to bite me, you bet your fanny I'm gonna do it right back - and not because I'm angry, but because of the consequences of _not_ doing it back.

Sure it sounded "mean" and "insulting" to you, but I guarantee you that lady has had her eyes opened, and Trocha may have saved a life (or two, if you consider the horse). I always remember things more clearly when it's said the way Trocha has said it.

Horsemanship is horsemanship, slap whatever label you'd like on it. Either you speak horse or you don't. Not everyone can buy a book and a DVD and become Pat Parelli. Some people CAN buy a DVD and study the methods and apply them accurately, but that's if they speak horse & are already experienced horsemen themselves. People that don't speak horse are the ones that train poorly. It's just a different type of person.

Truth is, most people that make oogly eyes at the horses being ridden without bridles and saddles and wish they could train their horse to do it, and others realize that that's basic knowledge and a horse should be able to respond to leg, seat, and vocal aids already, nigh on the tack. There is nothing "special" about NH _results_. There is only danger in exposing people that don't speak horse to methods that almost make it look like you should let your horse walk all over you. Naive people loveeee to say that their horse "loves" them, which is simply not how horses think.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

ScharmLily said:


> Ahhh, the ever persistent "only rise to the lowest standard" response. If horses kick and bite eachother then we should do the same.....despite the fact that we are the more intelligent being that is capable of using our MIND to formulate a better response. Is the woman in the letter wrong in her handling of the horse?-


Are you the type of person that when you travel to a foreign country expect them to speak English (or whatever your native language is) so you can be understood, instead of you trying to speak their language?

You are basically saying that we want the horses in our world and we want them to do as we wish but we should not ever speak horse to them.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Okay, didn't read all the pages in-between, but my problem with Mr. Trocha's article, although accurate on many levels, is that he comes across as a know-it-all and never really addresses how to fix the problem.

Say I was the person the article was written about (I'm not, but I DO have respect issues with my colt) what did that article accomplish other than putting me down? All he pretty much said (in my view) is something like "you silly woman, that horse walks all over you and you don't even realize it."

Did he tell her how to realize it? What to do when she did realize the horse was disrespectful? Not really. Maybe some mention about moving their feet, but that's about it.

It was more of a rant than anything else. 

I'm sure he gets tired of seeing people who love their horses and the horses walk all over them. But it put him down in my mind as a trainer for venting his frustrations on his website. 

I wish it was just as easy as realizing there is a problem and moving their feet. There are days I swear my colt spends more time backing up than moving forward (because I am constantly trying to correct his behavior) and I honestly get tired of carrying a whip all the time. I feel like a lion tamer. So I really didn't get any advice from Mr. Trocha's article other than belittled because I can't get instant respect out of my horse. :evil:


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## ScharmLily (Nov 23, 2009)

Equilove said:


> It isn't about what WE understand, it's about what the horse understands. What you are considering "violence", the horses sees as a means of gaining respect. Unfortunately, the horse doesn't recognize coddling and carrot sticks as a reason to respect a being half their size. You have to earn it, and that typically means proving you're a worthwhile leader. No, you don't need to beat a horse to make it respect you, but if a horse kicks at me or tries to bite me, you bet your fanny I'm gonna do it right back - and not because I'm angry, but because of the consequences of _not_ doing it back.
> 
> Sure it sounded "mean" and "insulting" to you, but I guarantee you that lady has had her eyes opened, and Trocha may have saved a life (or two, if you consider the horse). I always remember things more clearly when it's said the way Trocha has said it.
> 
> ...


See, this is exactly what I was NOT saying. I said that I did not like all the separation of NH and any other method. I also said that I choose not to say that I use NH because this often evokes this very response. Maybe if you had read what I said then you wouldn't jump to conclusions. Where did I say that I "coddle and use carrot sticks" to get my horse to listen? Truth is, I don't own any gadgets.

On the subject of horse behavior, my horses are all together in a paddock and because they are at my house, I see them all the time. Only VERY rarely do they actually make contact with eachother. It is usually more of a pressure and release system using body language. One of the worst things to a horse is to be driven out of their herd. The herd is safety and comfort. If a horse misbehaves, then it is quite natural that if you add pressure to drive them away, they will get the message quite clearly. None of my horses walk all over me. In fact they behave a lot better than many others that I see.....

If my horse were to try and bite me, I would give them a smack. Difference is, I'm not going to stick a nail between my fingers or purposely try to inflict pain. The slap usually makes more of an impression because of the noise and sudden movement...it is not intended to beat the horse- much like a horse in the field nipping at another. Even when they do make contact it does not usually cause terrible damage because the intent was to make the other horse listen, not to destroy them. 

And I still stand by my opinion that the delivery was terrible. If you truly want to "save" people and horses, speak in such a way as to cause people to trust and respect you, not just tune you out because of your attitude. I still believe that the intelligent way to go about this would have been to discuss the issue like civilized people, not completely pick the woman apart (although I really think that this was probably staged). Please realize, I am not trying to start a fight, I just disagree with what had been said, and I think that both sides of every story deserve to be heard. People who read these responses can take it all in and decide for themselves what is right. It is not a battle of NH vs conventional training, I do not think that they are altogether two different entities.


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## ScharmLily (Nov 23, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Are you the type of person that when you travel to a foreign country expect them to speak English (or whatever your native language is) so you can be understood, instead of you trying to speak their language?
> 
> You are basically saying that we want the horses in our world and we want them to do as we wish but we should not ever speak horse to them.


No, actually quite funny that you say that. Those who know me know that I believe that those who go to a foreign country (including the US) should learn to speak the language rather than expecting people to change for them.

I guess there are different ways to interpret the equine language. I explained more in my first post, so won't reinstate here. The way that I have learned (which has worked on almost every horse I've ever come in contact with) just doesn't include the need for violence. Of course, if I am dealing with a horse that has been changed from a lifetime of harsh handling and it is an issue of my safety, I will do what is necessary to keep myself safe in that instant. However in the long term I would construct a plan to approach the issue from a non-violent angle that both the horse and I can understand. Pressure and release is VERY natural to a horse...no where did I say that I'd just walk up to a horse, start speaking english to them, and expect them to understand :?. For a sensitive horse, the pressure may be very light (just body language), for a less sensitive horse it may be more, but never to the point of pain and violence.

I have been around quite a few people who call themselves horse "trainers" who do not listen to the horse at all...they just kick, punch, and beat their way around- but the funny thing is that the horses are always confused and I doubt that you would see them interact like this amongst their herd. Plus, if you really want to use force, in a real herd a 150 lb human would definitely be at the bottom of the pecking order, so there is an obvious need for us to use our minds to command respect, rather than just our bodies.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Horses naturally push into pressure rather than give to it. They must be taught to give to pressure. If horses did it naturally then there would be no need for training. When you pulled on the reins they would break at the poll, round thier back and come to a stop. I have yet to find the horse that does that naturally.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

ScharmLily said:


> See, this is exactly what I was NOT saying. I said that I did not like all the separation of NH and any other method. I also said that I choose not to say that I use NH because this often evokes this very response. Maybe if you had read what I said then you wouldn't jump to conclusions. Where did I say that I "coddle and use carrot sticks" to get my horse to listen? Truth is, I don't own any gadgets.
> 
> On the subject of horse behavior, my horses are all together in a paddock and because they are at my house, I see them all the time. Only VERY rarely do they actually make contact with eachother. It is usually more of a pressure and release system using body language. One of the worst things to a horse is to be driven out of their herd. The herd is safety and comfort. If a horse misbehaves, then it is quite natural that if you add pressure to drive them away, they will get the message quite clearly. None of my horses walk all over me. In fact they behave a lot better than many others that I see.....
> 
> ...


I know it's confusing because I quoted you, but really I was not aiming my post at you. I only intended to have a bit of my response aimed at the bolded section, but not the entire thing. The rest was a generalization and I did not mean to imply you used "gadgets".


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Zimpatico said:


> Cookies only after he gets smacked and yelled at, then gives me pouty face. I'm a sucker... ROTFL!
> 
> Funny story about the sticks. I once boarded for a couple of weeks at a "name brand NH" barn because it was close and had amazing pastures & trails. At the time, I didn't really know what this particular name meant to its followers and how crazy some of these follwers are. I was slowly informed that I do not use the correct equipment. Namely, rope halters, carrot stick, etc... I caved and got a rope halter since they handled the turnout to make them happy. I said I have a stick, it's called a dressage whip! OMG, they were totally offended that I did not buy the approved name brand rope halter, and the fancy carrot stick was NOTHING like a dressage whip. Um, yeah, ok... I realized after about three weeks there was no way I could make it work at that barn. Sorry, but I had to give up the gorgeous pastures. I think I was the only boarder there that actually RODE their horse. Heaven forbid...
> 
> Oh, and I still get the emails about "play dates" at other area name-that-will-not-be-mentioned barns! No thank you!


Well, if they wanted rope halters for turnout it's a good thing you left.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Do you know what I think the problem is here on this forum? The problem is that when we talk about Natural Horsemanship we end up discussing and fighting over two completely different catagories.

I believe there are two very distinct strains of NH. A lot of people on this forum are fairly experienced horsemen, people like myself, who have been around horses for longer than thirty years. I have read and watched various NH trainers and use all sorts of bits and pieces from any one of them. I believe I practice an unlabeled, personalized form of NH. I use pressure/release methods to train. I also move her feet to get her to understand I am the boss. I DO NOT use violence on my horse, I do not carry a stick of any type. However I will use AGGRESSION to move my horse ie quick, aggressive hand movements, sudden movements towards her, the flick of the lead rope at her. In other words I use very similar behaviour to that demonstrated in a mob of horses.

And then there is the other form of NH. This is the type that is packaged and marketed to beginners and the inexperienced. This is the form of "Natural Horsemanship" that gives people WHO HAVE NO BUSINESS TRYING TO TRAIN A HORSE the very mistaken belief that they have the tools and knowledge to do so. I think this is the NH that every one on this forum bashes because I know I sure as **** do!! 

It is very easy to work out what category of NH you fall into. If you are "practicing Natural Horsemanship" but find that you are too scared to ride your horse in certain situations, too scared to try to pick up feet, saddle up, do up the girth, too scared to ride in a group, or attempt a creek crossing, or administer worm treatment, or lead your horse, mount your horse, canter your horse. Then you are indeed practicing. There is nothing wrong with this EXCEPT that you need to STOP thinking that the horse needs to be trained and start thinking about what YOU as the handler can do better.

And then there are those people who will confidently ride their horse into any situation and who have horses that have zero no go zones. I believe I should be able to do anything I like with my horse in regards to grooming and care. I also do not believe in no go areas when I am riding, I will ride my horse through that mud, with that group of other horses, past the stallion on the side of the road, past the gate to home, through traffic, at any pace I want. And my horse will Naturally, and happily trust me and follow my lead. 

I know which category of NH I fall into.


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## eclaire23 (Oct 26, 2010)

Does the training method matter? If the horse is trained its trained- if not its going to be- putting a lable on training is stupid.

Right way Wrong way- Its a matter of opinion. 

And bashing either forms is cruel. 

If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all

And good trainers don't care what you all think. They'll do as they please. Whether it be NH or machanical devices sticking out the horses butt. The horses will be trained.

I did enjoy the artical

-unfortunally I know this type of owner- thinking unicorns and fluffy fairies will fix problems- blah!


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

eclaire23 said:


> Does the training method matter? If the horse is trained its trained- if not its going to be- putting a lable on training is stupid.


there are a lot of ways to reach a goal and sometimes the method used to get the horse to a certain point destroys the horses demeanor in the process... i think that's where this whole 'natural horsemanship' fad began. people though of breaking horses as saddling up, 'cowboying' the horse with spurs and breaking their spirits in order to break them to ride (which is of course not true of all 'old fashioned' trainers, but is certainly not unheard of) and when time was no longer of the essence, people adopted these 'love and patience' ideals, slapped a label on it, and sold it to naive horse people who had a 'pet' rather than a work horse (i mean really how often do you see someone in the reining/cutting ring boasting about how parelli totally changed their life).

then again people mistake horses that jump at things and throw their heads up when someone moves their hand as a horse that has been abused and beaten, instead of realizing "hey, maybe this is just a jumpy horse?"

some horses can't and won't learn a certain way... a good horseman adapts his/her training to the horse... not the other way around!


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## eclaire23 (Oct 26, 2010)

I agree with you Equilove. 

I'm just tried of hearing everybodies opinion when its been said a million times. If one doesn't like a method they should keep their mouths shut- and let the other party be. Yah know! They don't need to be bashed- for their honest beliefs

I think I'm going to just take my advice and boycott the training sections from now on.


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## OTTBLover (Jun 23, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> Okay, didn't read all the pages in-between, but my problem with Mr. Trocha's article, although accurate on many levels, is that he comes across as a know-it-all and never really addresses how to fix the problem.
> 
> Say I was the person the article was written about (I'm not, but I DO have respect issues with my colt) what did that article accomplish other than putting me down? All he pretty much said (in my view) is something like "you silly woman, that horse walks all over you and you don't even realize it."
> 
> ...


 
I just have to say I got the same tone from his response. I believe he could have said everything with a less condecending tone.

The approach he took just serves to put people on the defence.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

kiwigirl said:


> Do you know what I think the problem is here on this forum? The problem is that when we talk about Natural Horsemanship we end up discussing and fighting over two completely different catagories.
> 
> I believe there are two very distinct strains of NH. A lot of people on this forum are fairly experienced horsemen, people like myself, who have been around horses for longer than thirty years. I have read and watched various NH trainers and use all sorts of bits and pieces from any one of them. I believe I practice an unlabeled, personalized form of NH. I use pressure/release methods to train. I also move her feet to get her to understand I am the boss. I DO NOT use violence on my horse, I do not carry a stick of any type. However I will use AGGRESSION to move my horse ie quick, aggressive hand movements, sudden movements towards her, the flick of the lead rope at her. In other words I use very similar behaviour to that demonstrated in a mob of horses.
> 
> ...


Agreed! I don't 'whoop' my horse, but I will use aggressive body language to let him understand that I am the Big B and he is the little.


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## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

kiwigirl said:


> I believe I practice an unlabeled, personalized form of NH.


As should everyone. Trainers and "methods" should be like a buffet table-you take what you like and leave the rest.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Nowhere in the real or ficticious letter did the woman say she was using natural horsemanship methods. Nowhere. 
Nowhere in Mr. TRocha's reply did he "bash" natural horsemanship that I could see. Did I miss something? (wouldn't be the first time.)


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Completely 100% agreed. I cannot STAND being labelled "anti-NH" or an "NH-basher". I am the furthest thing from the sort, I employ a great deal of techniques with my horses, and I certainly never take a whip to them in a corner of the stall as discipline. I rarely ever lay a hand on my horses, except in cases of extremely quick reaction such as attempting to bite me.

I am against packaging ANY horse training into a neat little bundle, and even moreso against any person ignorant and naive enough to truly believe that there is such thing as ONE method that works on every single horse. I have nothing against most training methods, I just personally can't stand these "NH" labels on things. EVERYONE uses NH, because if we're not, then we're all beating our horses. The minute you step away from the "old cowboy" methods of beating a horse into a submission, you're immediately moving closer to employing methods that appeal to the HORSE'S way of thinking.

Call it whatever you want, but don't act like it's the end all of training and don't give it a fancy name and act like somehow you invented it. Telling someone they're "not NH" because they've ever smacked a horse on the nose for biting is the most ludicrous asinine thing I've ever heard of.


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## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Huge like to coffeegod. Definitely true.
> 
> Dogs are different then virtually any other animal - even a feline bond is much more like an equine bond, in that you are only there to serve belly rubs and food. My cats will ***** their bellies to anyone who walks by, they really don't have any high opinion of me in particular. My horse is much the same - they often prefer me, and fully trust me, but they'll take a carrot and scritch from any ol' Joe that walks by!
> 
> ...


I agree. Well written!



kevinshorses said:


> If horses were people they would be the worse kind of people. Greedy, selfish, tempermental and flighty. However, as animals go they are fantastic BECAUSE of the things that will make them bad people.


And lazy. Don't forget lazy.



ScharmLily said:


> However, even worse than this, in my opinion, is the old-school horse "trainer" who is so stuck in their ways that they couldn't navigate out with a GPS. These people are the ones that just perpetuate gross mishandling of the horse, and are usually the type that give horses problems such as what was stated in the letter (and drugs to sell them as "quiet and trained" too). IMO it is much easier to earn the respect of an unruly horse than it is to take away the fear that comes from a lifetime of abuse and violence.


I would not call a horseman like this "old-school". I have nothing against the "old-school" type of training you hear people referring to. I would call this type of horseman ABUSIVE. Old school to me is the way the pioneers trained in the "good old days", how the mennonites train now. No, I have nothing bad to say about true "Old School" training. But old school, the way I see it, is not abusive.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> Nowhere in the real or ficticious letter did the woman say she was using natural horsemanship methods. Nowhere.
> Nowhere in Mr. TRocha's reply did he "bash" natural horsemanship that I could see. Did I miss something? (wouldn't be the first time.)


"I have now formed a nice relationship with him by following the natural horsemanship methods." - her email


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## ScharmLily (Nov 23, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Horses naturally push into pressure rather than give to it. They must be taught to give to pressure. If horses did it naturally then there would be no need for training. When you pulled on the reins they would break at the poll, round thier back and come to a stop. I have yet to find the horse that does that naturally.


I guess I did not explain this properly. What I meant by pressure would be aggressive body language. One horse pins its ears and bares the teeth, therefore putting pressure on another horse, who moves away if they are lower in the pecking order. Same thing occurs when a horse presents its but to another and the other backs off. Touch is a different story, and I agree with you that it must be trained. Sorry that I was confusing.

Equilove- ok, no problem, just a misunderstanding I guess.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

eclaire23 said:


> I'm just tried of hearing everybodies opinion when its been said a million times. If one doesn't like a method they should keep their mouths shut- and let the other party be. Yah know! They don't need to be bashed- for their honest beliefs





eclaire23 said:


> If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all


How does basically telling everyone who is having a discussion to shut up fit into your theory of not saying anything if you can not say anything nice?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

In my experience, the people most against an argument are the ones who get angriest when they can't convince people of their opinion.

In other words, if you're not going to agree with HER then you need to shut up. She's sick of hearing all our opinions, she just wants the right to voice her own opinion. Double standard and what not. :wink:


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Yep, kind of hard to have a discussion if no ones allowed to talk. I cant see a forum working very well if no one is allowed to voice an opinion. (and the angry ones are always the most fun anyway!! please don't get rid of the angry ones!!)


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## serafina (May 5, 2011)

Why on earth would anyone suspect the provenance of his e-mail? Thanks to some real quality time spent on HorseForum, I knew exactly what that e-mail was going to say before I even got there: "I bought a great horse because I just fell in love with it and we can make a soul bond and fart rainbows together, and then I tried to use high-level reasoning with it and wow! now the horse is a major brat! Someone must have drugged this horse when I bought it! What can I do now?"

If I've read this posting once on this forum, I must have read it 30 times. 

I'd be willing to bet that this woman tried to use the same approach with her kids, who are doubtless now just as evilly spoiled as her horse. In fact, the entire time I was reading the guy's response, I thought he ought to just swap out the words "horse" and "children" and we'd have a return to sane and effective parenting as well. Boundaries, trust, affection, discipline. Need to use the same stuff with the dogs, as well, if you want to be able to take them anywhere, or ever have people over.

Sheesh.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

serafina said:


> and fart rainbows together


:rofl::clap::rofl:


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

serafina said:


> "I bought a great horse because I just fell in love with it and we can make a soul bond and fart rainbows together, and then I tried to use high-level reasoning with it and wow! now the horse is a major brat! Someone must have drugged this horse when I bought it! What can I do now?"


This is worth making into a barn sign. 

Reasoning with an animal with the brain the size of a walnut. 

BTW I was referring to the human owner.........................................


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

ScharmLily said:


> I guess I did not explain this properly. What I meant by pressure would be aggressive body language. One horse pins its ears and bares the teeth, therefore putting pressure on another horse, who moves away if they are lower in the pecking order. Same thing occurs when a horse presents its but to another and the other backs off. Touch is a different story, and I agree with you that it must be trained. Sorry that I was confusing.
> 
> Equilove- ok, no problem, just a misunderstanding I guess.


It doesn't matter if the "feel" being presented is direct (physical) or indirect it has to be taught all the same. A horse won't just move away because another horse pins its ears unless that horse has taught it to move or suffer the consequences. If a horse will only bare its teeth and not back it up then pretty soon bared teeth have no meaning. The same goes for things that humans do. If you pull on the reins to stop and release the pressure before the horse stops then you are training your horse to ignore your reins.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Firstly Mr Trochas article accomplished nothing. (in positive non self-assuming terms)

It was designed as a self serving, self advertising pr stunt. It not the words or attitude of somebody who wants to help people. It would not help those he aims at to understand. The people clapping will be those who already agree as this whole thread demonstrates.

Whoopee.

Secondly it is based once again on frankly impotent designs of the herd structure. For one as Kevin also mentioned previously, there is little truth in the 'lead mare' that is so commonly and ignorantly used as the base for most equine methodology. Not only that but do you really think that we can speak 'horse'? They kick, so we kick....... They bite so we bite.....is it the same? If the same were applied to other domesticated animals like dogs, we'd train them by ****ing all over them or dry humping. We are not horses. We are not dogs. They recognise that and so should we. We have much more effective methods and abilities in our power. Let's use them and move away from this archaic ignorance perpetuated by fear and egotism.

Just a thought


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Over many years I have learned that sometimes we just have to clobber a horse that is extremetly disrespectful. On the other hand I will work with it in a way that invites the horse to be respectful so that I never have to hit it again. I do work a horse at liberty and allow it to either work with me or stand at the far end of the paddock. I'll just grab a book, a chair and wait. I have learned that many horses are compliant but not necessarily trusting. I have one that was very fearful yet compliant. We are working on the trust and he's no longer fearful. He was often jumpy altho careful to avoid me, explosive and bolt. That hasn't happened in a month now as he's like a new horse.


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## KeroKero (Jul 5, 2011)

I actually really liked this article, I find most people around me have this fluffly pink view of horses that puts them in serious danger... I was out with a coworker, she wanted to come into the pasture while I caught my horse - I gave her a rope and told her to keep the other horses at a distance, don't get between any, don't get behind any...

I look over a minute later, she's drowned in about 15 horses, I can barely see her. They must have all thought she had treats... she obviously did not realize all it would take is one horsey-disagreement to get the whole crowd moving on top of her. She also laughed when I told her some of the horses bite... >_> she won't be coming out again.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*I love to be stereotyped*



> The self described NH people, particularly those who talk about "bonding" tend to appeal to a certain type of amatuer horseperson. In the hunter world, we would talk about those amateur in terms of 4 Fs - forty, fat, fearful and female.
> Is the goofy woman in that email applying NH techniques correctly? Of course not. Is it the NH practitioner's fault? No. Is it really a valid example of the method? Nope. But the fact of the matter is, a lot of NH trainers or in general, people who want to sell DVDs, *know* that that's their market.


I happen to be a few years past 40, and fat, and whatever you said 'we' women are, oh I see from the top fearful AND female.

NH works. Not if you accept every written pearl of wisdom, but because it's based on how the natural horse lives in the natural environment. I am NOT an amateur, fearful or forty, but wow you got 1/4th of me right. The only thing you so sadly don't know is a bond with a horse. Horses are extremely intelligent animals that yes will walk all over someone for treats, but for you to say they can't love is stupidity at it's finest. You want to tell me that certain birds mate for life, and dolphins and whales can die from grief, but horses can't bond and love? You disgust me, and taking this poor woman as an example since she obviously knows nothing, is a cheap shot. 
Cheryl, extremely loved by a morab


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Doe said:


> Not only that but do you really think that we can speak 'horse'? They kick, so we kick....... They bite so we bite.....is it the same? If the same were applied to other domesticated animals like dogs, we'd train them by ****ing all over them or dry humping. We are not horses. We are not dogs. They recognise that and so should we. We have much more effective methods and abilities in our power. Let's use them and move away from this archaic ignorance perpetuated by fear and egotism.
> 
> Just a thought


Doe, I think we have finally agreed on something!


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