# Just Curious-What Color is He?



## nucks93 (Dec 7, 2011)

I'm no color expert, and I am just wondering what other gene besides Tobiano this guy is. He has a little bit of blue in one eye, a big blaze, and a spot under his chin. Any Suggestions? (PS. Sorry for the bad pic! its the only one i have atm)


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## RubieLee (Mar 2, 2012)

Flaxen Chestnut? Or is that just the light in his tail? It would be great if you could get pictures of him without tack and that show all his white markings.


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## nucks93 (Dec 7, 2011)

Okay, Ill try to by this weekend!


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## nucks93 (Dec 7, 2011)

But I was thinking more on the lines of paint markings...Ive been doing my research and read that tobiano doesnt cause facial markings or blue eyes...


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## RubieLee (Mar 2, 2012)

His face makes me think sabino. As well as the right hind...how its tapered up in the front of the leg


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Splash because tobiano does not put that much white on the legs and none on the face. Possibly sabino by the rear right leg marking, but I'll wait for better pictures.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

I'd definitely say splash, because of the facial markings and the blue eye.


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## nucks93 (Dec 7, 2011)

heres another pic. I completely forgot to get pics this weekend. x.x sorry. I scrounged this one up though. Hope this helps a little.


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## RubieLee (Mar 2, 2012)

I still say Tobiano and Sabino. He's plain chestnut. Not flaxen or Liver Chestnut, but he's still a beauty. What would also help is pictures of his parents if you have them 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nucks93 (Dec 7, 2011)

RubieLee said:


> I still say Tobiano and Sabino. He's plain chestnut. Not flaxen or Liver Chestnut, but he's still a beauty. What would also help is pictures of his parents if you have them
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Aw, well thank you. And I wish I knew what his parents were! He was a rescue, so I don't know a whole lot about him. The only thing I remember is his sister being a bay paint, but I dont think that helps much x)


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## Ladyreiner (Jul 23, 2009)

your horse appears to be tovero.. a horse that carries both the tobiano gene and the overo gene .. you can find out buy testing which oveo gene it would be..sabino frame..etc.. that is the only way you will know for sure..

the horse in my avatar is a black tovero...he does have blue eyes and obviously is a maximum white.. 

for those of you wondering... I have heard many people (not on this forum) say horses with this much white have the lethal white gene.. or are at lest carriers... theis stallions is tested and negative for lethal white.. 

at any rate your boy is handsome and I very much like his markings!


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## neonpony (Dec 9, 2010)

Er...that nice hoss there be full o' spots!

No idea on all those colorings, but I just wanted to say he looks cute whatever he is!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Ladyreiner said:


> your horse appears to be tovero.. a horse that carries both the tobiano gene and the overo gene .. you can find out buy testing which oveo gene it would be..sabino frame..etc.. that is the only way you will know for sure..
> 
> the horse in my avatar is a black tovero...he does have blue eyes and obviously is a maximum white..
> 
> ...


Tovero is an outdated term. There is also not one "overo gene". Overo is a catch-all term for any white gene but tobiano, including Frame, Splash, and Sabino. The lethal white gene you're mentioning is Frame and it does not matter the amount of white on the horse that determines whether a horse is a carrier or not, it's the placement of the white. A horse like yours (if the parentage was uncertain) should be tested before breeding just as a precaution. My mare is a SPB out of a loud Frame/Splash mare and carries Frame.


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## nucks93 (Dec 7, 2011)

Haha hes a gelding, so this little guy won't be a daddy. I think there are enough horses on this planet who need homes as is. :x (Sorry if that offends anyone..) But I was just curious, because the tobiano is apparent, but the flecks of blue in one of his eyes, as well as the facial markings are making me scratch my head. And thank you NeonPony! He's my little baby


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

I'm sorry but I feel the need to correct what some other people have said here. He is clearly tobiano. Tobiano is a pattern of white that crosses the topline of the horse. These white markings are arranged vertically, and tobiano horses almost always have four white legs. This horse fits the textbook description of tobiano. The only indication is see that your horse may have another pattern is the face marking. Horses with only the tobiano pinto pattern and no other pattern have normal face markings. Your horse has a blaze that extends onto his lower lip which is highly unusual (if not impossible) for a non-pinto horse. Chin spots like that are almost always caused by the presence of sabino. There is a small chance that overo could cause a chin spot, though overo face markings are usually louder than just a smooth blaze with a chin spot. Your horse is definitely not a splash white. Splash white horses always have two blue eyes. Your horse only has one partial blue eye so that rules that out. Splash white horses also have smooth-edged bald faces, which your horse does not have.

I'm pulling all of my facts out of a published book on horse coat colours and genetics: "Horse Color Explained" by Jeanette Gower. So I swear I'm not making this up. ^^

If I had to place my bets, I would say that this horse is carries both tobiano and sabino but if you want to find out for certain, get him tested! It's not too expensive and then you can solve the mystery for good! This is where I sent the samples when I had my own mare colour tested: Horse Testing - Equine Genetic Testing


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Woah there Kiltsrhott.

"Horse Colour Explained" is a book that is at least 13 years old. That is a long, long time in terms of genetics.

Nowadays, we are fairly certain that tobiano does not cause face white AT ALL. So any face white on a tobiano is caused by another white pattern. 

Nowadays, we have a test for splash white, and it has PROVEN that splash horses don't have to have even one blue eye, let alone two. Also, splash doesn't have to create a bald face - it can create just a snip and still be there.

Also, testing won't rule out sabino in this case. Most sabino type markings still test negative for Sabino 1, which is the only mutation that has a test currently. There is a least one more type of Sabino that we are fairly sure is there, with some people theorising a lot more than just one.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Add into that Chiilaa that there are horses that are testing negative for the three splash tests available, but are _clearly_ some form of splash.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

That too. And ones with two blue eyes that have tested negative for both splash and frame.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

The research and findings in Horse Colour Explained are still valid. The studies done to back up the statements in that book have not been disproved. As further studies continue, more possibilities are discovered. That is true. There are exceptions to every rule. The genetic make up of animals and its evolution is built on mutation. Living things are ever-changing and our knowledge on them is ever changing and ever-growing but that does not mean that what you read on the internet (despite its newness) is more valid than published work.

Just because there are a handful of splash whites out there that are very minimal or do not have both characteristic blue eyes, does not mean you should search for splash white in every horse that has white markings. It still stands that a vast majority of splash white horses have bald faces, two blue eyes and unique, smooth-edged markings that extend upwards. This horse has none of the characteristics of splash.. except a partial wall eye, which is also frequently found in horses with other pinto patterns, not solely splash. Hence why I do not believe this horse carries splash.

Also, I never said that splash was the only pattern that could have blue eyes. Blue eyes are common in with other pinto patterns as well, and have also been seen in solids. And I also said that tobiano horses have normal face markings. By "normal" I meant, stars, blazes that end at the upper lip or no face markings at all. I said this with the implication that tobiano does not affect face markings.

The point I'm trying to make goes with the common saying: If you hear hoof beats, look for horses, not zebras. This horse has characteristic tobiano markings with a characteristic sabino chin spot. I'm saying that, chances are, this horse carries tobiano and sabino. Sure, it's possible that this horse could be tobiano, sabino, splash white, and overo! Heck, he could be carrying a silver dilute too! AND he could test negative for all of them because new mutations are discovered every day! ...but probably not.

I know that not all sabino horses test positive for sabino1. As I said in my previous post, I had my own horse tested. I tested her for agouti, extension and sabino. My horse expresses sabino markings. She has a blaze, a chin spot, high, jagged socks, and a few, small, belly spots. I was told, by the professionals at Equine Genetics Inc. that Sabino1 is the mutation most commonly found in paints, thoroughbreds and arabians that express the sabino phenotype. Drafts that express sabino rarely test positive for sabino1. My horse is half Shire. She has whatever type is common amongst drafts, which has yet to be identified. The horse in question is the type of horse that is most likely to test positive for sabino1 if he expressed sabino. That's not saying that he couldn't have some other form of sabino or that there could be another explanation entirely for the chin spot. It's always a possibility. There are always other possibilities, but considering his type, he could very well test positive and his owner could very well have some answers by getting him tested.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I wish I could find my copy of HCE. I had it out just the other day, and was quite surprised by how much of it was still correct. However, there is plenty in there that has been proven to not be true. If you can't conceive that a text that is that old can have "facts" in there that are facts no longer actually true, then you should read other sources. There is plenty of information on the internet that is valid and current.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

You just have to use caution with internet resources. Who wrote that web page? Are they qualified? What studies were used to back up their claims? Anyone can make a web page and put whatever they want onto it. Anyone can post a photo of a horse and tell you it's this colour or that colour, but that doesn't make it true. Most horse colour and genetic web sites do not cite their sources, so their trustworthiness is questionable. As someone who has a science degree and works in a laboratory, I tend to trust information from science and medical journals, and published books (however antiquated) before that of new ideas posted online by authors without credentials. To be honest, all of the things you said in your last post, we agreed upon, so I'm not entirely sure why you're trying to tell me my sources are outdated and that my statements are wrong. I also gather a lot of my information from the people at animal genetics inc. They and their web site are very informative and they are professionals in the field. Their phenotypical descriptions of the colour patterns do coincide with what Jeanette Gower says in her book. I also refer to the appaloosa project for more-current and in-depth information on spotted patterns. You should give examples of your sources if you have good web-based sources. I am always eager to read more on coat colours.


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## nucks93 (Dec 7, 2011)

Haha well I think I will get him tested! Im curious now too!  Ill keep you guys posted


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## RubieLee (Mar 2, 2012)

I can't wait to see if he has anything other than Tobiano and Sabino. I know a palomino overo qh/apha with blue flecking in both hazel eyes. He's pretty but his owner loves him for his unwavering,.sensitive nature. He's a great beginner horse and he's close to 17 hands. I think no matter what color genes your horse is he's still gorgeous
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Sabino cannot and does not cause blue eyes. By that very fact, it is impossible that this horse is JUST tobiano/sabino. A chin spot can also be indicative of splashed white.

I'm not seeing frame, that's a gene that wants to inhibit white on the legs if it can, and will try to disallow a chin spot. It also causes white markings to spread out above the eyes. I'm not seeing any of that happening in this horse.

It's hard to say for sure what this horse carries other than tobi and sabino (because sabino avoids the eyes and splash/overo does not, and this face marking clearly avoids the eyes, there is no doubt that sabino is there). It may be frame, but I'm not seeing it. It may be splashed white, but I'm also not really seeing that. It would help if you could get some more photos of the face marking, from the front and from both sides.

All I am saying is that there IS something else, this horse is not just tobiano and sabino.


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## nucks93 (Dec 7, 2011)

*Okay, I finally got some (hopefully) decent pics!*

































Ignore my boyfriend in the second to last one x)


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## RubieLee (Mar 2, 2012)

I love your horses "suspenders"; the white over his shoulders. Super cool!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Looking at these new shots, I want to say frame is in the mix. So my current postulation is "tobiano, frame and sabino".

Tobiano - the white crosses his back, so that's the evidence for that.

Sabino - the white is under his chin and jaw.

Frame - it looks to me like something is trying to restrict the white on his legs. I would expect much freer expression if there was just tobiano and one other pattern. Plus the white on his side screams it to me - a big patch spreading sideways and not connected to the "tobiano" part of his markings.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

I second what Chiila said. The new photos show markings that indicate frame in addition to the sabino and tobiano mentioned before.


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## nucks93 (Dec 7, 2011)

wow, sweet guys! Thanks for all the input


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