# Western Dressage - Arabian Horse Assoc



## deserthorsewoman

Good! Now let's hope they keep it natural......


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## greentree

JUST what we need in AHA..... another division!!!!

Sorry.

Nancy


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## bsms

I wish the Arabian Horse Association Board of Directors would address the breeding of Arabians with sea-horse heads and tabletop backs. After that, they could do anything they wanted. I'll be darned if I see the point of 'western dressage', but if it gets folks off their duffs and out riding, I guess it is OK. Personally, I'm still trying to convince my Arabian not to trot sideways past trash cans...:wink: I probably ought to give in, wear a top hat, tip it to the neighbors and pretend we do it on purpose!

Guess at my level, western dressage is how we prance down a wash. I wonder if the lizards appreciate our performance.


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## Dustbunny

bsms said:


> Personally, I'm still trying to convince my Arabian not to trot sideways past trash cans...:wink: I probably ought to give in, wear a top hat, tip it to the neighbors and pretend we do it on purpose!
> QUOTE]
> 
> LOL Post photos! I want to see that performance.
> Whatever you do and however you do it, do it with style!


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## tinyliny

bsms said:


> I wish the Arabian Horse Association Board of Directors would address the breeding of Arabians with sea-horse heads and tabletop backs. After that, they could do anything they wanted. I'll be darned if I see the point of 'western dressage', but if it gets folks off their duffs and out riding, I guess it is OK. Personally, I'm still trying to convince my Arabian not to trot sideways past trash cans...:wink: I probably ought to give in, wear a top hat, tip it to the neighbors and pretend we do it on purpose!
> 
> Guess at my level, western dressage is how we prance down a wash. I wonder if the lizards appreciate our performance.


I thought "Seahorse heads" were desirable? and I think I know what you mean by tabletop backs, but could you explain, please?


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## soenjer55

tinyliny said:


> I thought "Seahorse heads" were desirable? and I think I know what you mean by tabletop backs, but could you explain, please?


They're desirable, as they seem to be the trend, but the issue is when it's too extreme. One of the arguments against them is that that type of head isn't how arabians are supposed to look, i.e. that's not how arabians were bred to look originally by the Bedouins. There are people that are worried about the effects on the horses when it's too extreme, and whether they can even breathe properly- Basically, that the extreme trend is putting the pretty looks over functionality. I'm trying really hard to keep my personal opinion out of this, lol, hopefully this is an okay explanation.
As for the tabletop backs, have you ever seen those arabians in halter classes whose backs and croups are totally level with each other, and just... flat? That's a table top back, as far as I know.


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## bsms

Seahorse heads...I think it is repulsive:










Flat back:










A famous Arabian that I cannot stand:










Compare to Mia, who wouldn't win anything:


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## tinyliny

Don't get me wrong, I am total agreement. I find that look to be somewhat repugnant, too. But, I thought it was desired by the Arab breed folks .


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## deserthorsewoman

The sea horse head : PEOPLE have bred that in
Tabletop croup(not back): put any Arabian in that artificial show pose, under tension, you get that croup. 
Show me these pictured horses standing square, normal, and lets judge then.
And, for the horse with the sea horse head...I bet, without make up, out on pasture and a little less "editing", he's only half sea horse. 

I have seen quite a few show horses at home, behind closed doors, so to speak, and I didn't recognize a single one.

Oh, and btw....fftopic:


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## Dustbunny

Bsms...for whatever my opinion is worth, I think Mia is beautiful. She looks like a well put together athletic mare. They all should be usable and athletic.

Hopefully the WD thing will get more riders to be better horseman. And to my way of thinking it beats a Park Class all to heck. At least now there are rules and a direction.


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## greentree

I agree with bsms, I just do NOT get the western dressage thing....maybe they just needed to be more creative and come up with a different name, I don't know. Bugs the pants off of me, though....

Nancy


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## QHriderKE

I've said this before about western dressage.... if you really want to ride/train/show dressage... why not do it English? I mean.. theres no problem training dressage western, it doesnt matter what tack you use. But western dressage kind of butchers dressage. I see riders with heavy curb bits that are used on show horses that are always on a slack rein.. but the riders have picked up hard contact on the bit and it just doesnt seem... right.


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## soenjer55

I'm honestly not really seeing the point in western dressage, but I'm interesting in watching how it pans out. I don't really see it going very far and personally find it a bit ridiculous, but... I'm willing to just watch skeptically, haha.


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## longride

One thing about WD. It gives horses with functional conformation who aren't bred to the latest fad - seahorse heads and overly high croups - a place where they can beat the pants off "pretty" horses. There are no points given for conformation, since doing dressage well REQUIRES good conformation. Horses parked out behind have a hard time collecting, and a plain head has no effect at all on performance.


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## deserthorsewoman

longride said:


> One thing about WD. It gives horses with functional conformation who aren't bred to the latest fad - seahorse heads and overly high croups - a place where they can beat the pants off "pretty" horses. There are no points given for conformation, since doing dressage well REQUIRES good conformation. Horses parked out behind have a hard time collecting, and a plain head has no effect at all on performance.


^^^ this!
Plus hopefully less overflexed and more forward....


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## texasgal

bsms said:


> Seahorse heads...I think it is repulsive:
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> Flat back:
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> A famous Arabian that I cannot stand:
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> Compare to Mia, who wouldn't win anything:


Well, aren't you just a little ray of sunshine!


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## bsms

texasgal said:


> Well, aren't you just a little ray of sunshine!


Yep!

If the BOD of the AHA want to do something useful, perhaps they could do something easy - get the breeding and showing in line with some plausible standard. I'm a member of the AHA, and I get their magazine, and they worry about the future...but breeding silly looking horses isn't going to do much for the breed in America.

I view WD as about 90% silliness. Horses not specifically bred for dressage can do it fine at the lower levels, but you either need to change the goals of dressage (in which case it isn't dressage any more) or accept that horses bred for dressage will do better at the upper levels. Most any horse can jump, but those bred for it will jump better.

When the AHA magazine arrives in my mail, and the covers are of freaky looking horses that I wouldn't want to own, then it seems the BOD & the AHA are out of touch with the base of 'commoners' that they need to expand to build a future for Arabians.

WD isn't harmful, but it isn't really going to build the base that the AHA needs. It is a problem I think riding in general faces: how to get people (and men - we're 50% of the population and probably less than 10% of the riders) in their teens and twenties interested in riding horses.


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## Dustbunny

bsms said:


> Yep!
> (and men - we're 50% of the population and probably less than 10% of the riders)


A number of years ago there was this great commercial for Henry Weinhardt beer. A few old cowboys were sitting around and one of them (John Houston) starts talking, "A hundred years from now only little girls will ride horses..." and he goes on from there.

Sometimes I think the Arabian breed got sidetracked back in the day of the absurd prices, when the Scottsdale sales were the end all-be all, and the breed was considered "works of art." I have stepped away from the show end of the breed for a number of years. Nowadays the old park horses are English pleasure, park horses are I-don't-know-what-to-say, feet are longer, pads allowed. I haven't seen a halter class lately so no comment there. My involvement back into the show end is now with the Sport Horses. It all seems so much more rational to me. I hope WD adds something. It will remain to be seen. I may never show in a class again but I will volunteer my time in support of the club I belong to.

As far as guy involvement...There seems to be a lot of support in the popular stock breed activities. Maybe it's the more substancial bodies and all the ropin', ridin' and slidin'. Beats just going around in a circle.


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## existentialpony

Now, I am no blind fan of AHA and am often seen mumbling about show practices, but rage at the Magnum Psyche hate! My boy is out of a Padron's Psyche mare and he is not only athletic, but he is the most intelligent versatile horse I have ever ridden. Trails, gymkhana, hunter, western pleasure, dressage... he does it all. And he's **** pretty doing it. I adore his little seahorse face as much as I admire his ability to think about what I'm asking and execute it with athleticism.

Let me wander back on to topic and say... I have hope for Western Dressage in AHA! I think that executed properly, it could inject a little bit of education and proper movement into other aspects of AHA (such as Western Pleasure...). While bsms suggests that WD is mostly "silliness," IMHO I think that comes from someone who doesn't appreciate the good that basic dressage principles can do for a horse and rider. The beauty of dressage is that you aren't only competing with other riders-- you're competing against your last test score to become better, more athletic and more harmonious. This is what inspires better practices and better riding.


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## existentialpony

bsms, I hate to break it to you... but with a clipper, a little baby oil and some work on-the-bit Mia could be just as "repulsive" as the rest of those horses you posted.


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## deserthorsewoman

existentialpony said:


> bsms, I hate to break it to you... but with a clipper, a little baby oil and some work on-the-bit Mia could be just as "repulsive" as the rest of those horses you posted.


Yup, she sure is a pretty girl.....


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## Myya

> While bsms suggests that WD is mostly "silliness," IMHO I think that comes from someone who doesn't appreciate the good that basic dressage principles can do for a horse and rider. The beauty of dressage is that you aren't only competing with other riders-- you're competing against your last test score to become better, more athletic and more harmonious. This is what inspires better practices and better riding.


Totally agree. I don't understand those who are scoffing at western dressage. Dressage is just good riding and it's good for ANY horse, and greatly improves the rider's abilities as well. 

I've only been to one Western Dressage show but I was pleased with what I saw. The horses were more relaxed than what you usually see at modern (English) dressage shows and had better halts. Their heads were not overbent downwards and all the horses were in snaffles, not curbs. They needed to work on bending (around the circles) and balancing a bit more, but that was the biggest fault I noticed.

Why learn dressage (western or otherwise)? Because is helps your horse and it's FAR, FAR, more fun than Western Pleasure.

BTW, I've been told by several very qualified Dressage trainers that Western "seat" is more like true "Classical Dressage" than what is often seen in the modern dressage ring. Although I ride English Dressage, my instructor often tells me to "western it up". My first horse was an AQHA gelding that I rode western so I know exactly what she means. Now I'm teaching my dressage horse to neck-rein, which I now realize is basically the same as "being on the outside rein" (dressage terminology), LOL! Anyway, I have no clue why anyone would scoff at the idea of Western Dressage. I think it's a great idea, and yes, it allows those with breeds other than European Warmbloods to show in Dressage.


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## KigerQueen

I dont mind a SLIGHT dished/Refined head. I think my mare's is jut a lil too dished. And cant stand the flat backs (at least my mare dose not have that. I like the Babson Arabians because they are not Sea horse head or flat backed and yet the are the ORIGINAL Egyptian type horses.

Babson Stallion HR Hasims Legacy



























And here is a vid of western dressage XD


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## greentree

existentialpony said:


> Now, I am no blind fan of AHA and am often seen mumbling about show practices, but rage at the Magnum Psyche hate! My boy is out of a Padron's Psyche mare and he is not only athletic, but he is the most intelligent versatile horse I have ever ridden. Trails, gymkhana, hunter, western pleasure, dressage... he does it all. And he's **** pretty doing it. I adore his little seahorse face as much as I admire his ability to think about what I'm asking and execute it with athleticism.
> 
> Let me wander back on to topic and say... I have hope for Western Dressage in AHA! I think that executed properly, it could inject a little bit of education and proper movement into other aspects of AHA (such as Western Pleasure...). While bsms suggests that WD is mostly "silliness," IMHO I think that comes from someone who doesn't appreciate the good that basic dressage principles can do for a horse and rider. The beauty of dressage is that you aren't only competing with other riders-- you're competing against your last test score to become better, more athletic and more harmonious. This is what inspires better practices and better riding.


You are kidding, right?? 

Anytime we try to do anything FUNCTIONAL with Arabians, we get kicked out. THAT"s why we have Sport Horse Nationals, and WD ain't gonna fly there!!!!

Nancy


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## bsms

existentialpony said:


> ...While bsms suggests that WD is mostly "silliness," IMHO I think that comes from someone who doesn't appreciate the good that basic dressage principles can do for a horse and rider. The beauty of dressage is that you aren't only competing with other riders-- you're competing against your last test score to become better, more athletic and more harmonious. This is what inspires better practices and better riding.


You are partially correct. While I think dressage is an admirable sport, I do not think it is essential for developing an athletic horse or to "become better, more athletic and more harmonious". My only objection to dressage is when someone pushes it as THE way to ride a horse, when it is A way to ride, and A way to enjoy horses.

But if someone wants to ride dressage, then it makes sense to me to do dressage in tack designed for it. Shanked bits in the hands of someone who wants a horse in highly collected gaits seems wrong. I don't jog in hiking boots, but to each their own...except the horse is the one who is being made to jog in hiking boots...:?


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## Myya

Well, still not understanding your resentment against dressage here. 

Dressage is certainly not the only way to enjoy one's horse. Of course "technically" the word "dressage" means "training" and most consider that a positive aspiration - to train one's horse, but still, there are many, many people who have no desire to train their horse, just to ride it. It think that's perfectly fine as long as their horse has been adequately trained by others to the point of safety at least, and has a cooperative disposition as well. 

So I agree with you, that there is no reason to push dressage on everyone. 

For those who enjoy the "training" aspect of horsemanship, to them I would only seek to explain what dressage should be and can be, that is, a way to improve one's horse, no matter what other discipline you enjoy participating in. 

For example, I used to own a barrel racer. He had been encouraged and trained to lean in on the corners. He had also been encouraged to go fast and stop only upon insistence. This put some limits on the ways in which I could enjoy him. I could not, for example, ride him in a western pleasure class. He had no idea how to stop without a discussion about it, and contact with the reins was required at all times to keep him from accelerating. I know now, that with the principles I've learned from dressage, how I could have taught/trained him to become a better all around mount, while enhancing his barrel racing abilities, not destroying them. Of course, I very much enjoyed him just as he was, so I'm not on a campaign to insist that all horses learn "dressage".

And BTW, I'm puzzled at your apparent belief that dressage horses are forced to collect via use of a "long-shanked" bit. I ride my dressage horse in a double link O-ring snaffle. I ask him to collect with virtually no help from the reins. The "double bridle" seen on top level dressage horses is not even allowed in the ring on lower level dressage horses and most dressage horses are not trained in anything but a snaffle until the most advanced levels where a soft touch on the curb is used to indicate certain specific movements like the piaffe.


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## bsms

I have NO resentment of dressage. I have said repeatedly that I consider it an admirable sport. It just is not the foundation of all good riding.

Nor did I say dressage is ridden using shanked bits, although I have seen it used with folks promoting western dressage. And as I pointed out, that seems an odd tack combination for someone trying to ride with the horse 'on the bit'.

If someone likes dressage and wants to use it in their riding, great! If someone wants to do it with western tack, then...OK. But I think they really need to consider the differences between western and dressage, and adjust accordingly. I can ride traditional western cowboy style in an English close contact saddle, and my horse doesn't even complain - but that was NOT how the saddle was designed to be used. I can also ride with a forward seat while using a shanked western curb, and it will work fine - if I don't try to use the bit the way I would use a snaffle.

In addition, I think Western Dressage is oriented to people who haven't had much experience in dressage almost like a shortcut to dressage. Like jumping, I think dressage is a sport that should be taken seriously. And I'm not sure Western Dressage takes dressage seriously. The marketing I've seen seems like "Dressage without the work". If I'm wrong, that will be a good thing. If I'm right, then WD needs to die. Time will tell.


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## Myya

The more dressage I learn, the less I see it as a sport, and the more as learning to improve both myself and my horse. I don't think I've gotten to the point where we, together, are very "artistic" yet, but perhaps someday, lol!

My only question about the tack used for western dressage is it seems to me that most western saddles encourage a somewhat "chair seat" (correct me if I'm wrong) and that is a no-no in classical dressage. Of course, that said, I have several dressage saddles and of my two favorites, one definitely puts me in a "chair seat" position, while the other does not. Should I ever decide to get serious about Western Dressage, I will be on the lookout for a western saddle that puts me in the best position for the discipline. 

BTW, what are the rules for bits in Western Dressage? I'd be surprised if some version of a snaffle was not required. 

And perhaps we should start a whole new discussion about what "on the bit" means to whom.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

Some western saddles encourage a chair seat and others do not. There are plenty of both out there. The Circle Y I own puts me in a terrible, knee-killing chair seat. I hate it. The Abetta we own puts my heel under my hip, even though I don't want it that far back - but at least it doesn't hurt my knees!

The rules I just looked up allow snaffles and western bits. The videos I just looked at on their website had both being used. (Video Gallery | Western Dressage Association of America)

I've discussed on the bit with a variety of people. This probably isn't the time or place to discuss it at length. 

Traditional western riding has different goals than traditional dressage, and it leaves the subject open to a great deal of misunderstanding. Traditional western riding has valued things like speed, acceleration, and trusting the horse to make some of the decisions. I'm not sure how those values integrate into doing collected gaits in an arena. And if those values are left behind, is it still worth calling it 'western'? What if someone started "Western Jumping", doing steeplechases using western saddles and bits. Would it make sense?

I view riding as a diamond with many facets. I'm not sure the diamond is improved by blurring the distinctions between the facets...


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## Myya

I understand what you are saying. The idea of western jumping does sound a bit odd to me, but western dressage I'm not so sure about. Having ridden both western, basic English hunt seat, and dressage, I feel that western is far more like dressage than English hunt seat. Western riding promotes a longer leg, riding primarily off the seat, turning away from the outside rein, the sitting trot, etc. Hunt seat (used in most other English style riding) promotes none of these, while dressage promotes them all. 

But then alas, we come down to costume and tack. Outwardly they look different but western snaffles are certainly common and if you say that non-chairseat western saddles are also readily available, then it comes down to cosmetics and I'm not convinced that should be the deciding factor. After all, authentic cowboys didn't dress as your western riders of today, nor did the original inventors of the word "dressage" dress like dressage riders of today. A person in a western style community is not often inclined to switch over to English attire, nor should they have to IMO, just to ride dressage.

The answer of course, is for we who value what dressage has to offer the horse and rider, but don't care for the attire, to all join the "Baroque Equestrian Games and Institute" (I have) and compete under it's wonderful rules which allow any and all styles of tack and attire, while focusing only on the improvement of the horse and rider. (Beside strictly dressage classes, the BEGI also offers the artistic expression of musical and custume classes, as well as "games".)


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## boots

Aaargh! Those videos!

It grieves me to see people riding in Western tack and moving further and further away from a functional form of horsemanship. 

At least this form of riding needs a new name. Something that indicates: Misuse of bit type and unnecessary saddle type.


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## Freemare

I am now going to give my point on WD. Here in my area everyone thinks dressage is stupid. We have a lot of western riders that like western pleasure and trail. After hearing about WD a lot of them said, "Ha never thought that would happen" Any way a lot of them thought dressage was stupid, not important and a waste of time. Soon after their ideas on it changed not for WD but dressage in general. Its just something else for western riders to do, to open their minds to something new. I am all for it and plan on trying it my self.


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## Myya

Whatever is good for horses and the horse industry is fine with me.
To each his own.
Variety is the spice of life.

If we are going to be very narrow-minded about it, perhaps we should restrict all dressage to Spanish saddles and Spanish horses. All quarter horses would have to be restricted to the western look of course, all thoroughbreds to racing, and warmbloods to jumping. Perhaps ALL western horses should be condemned to the curb bit, whether they need it or not. 

But I will tell you one reason I have for wanting to stick to my Klimke dressage saddle: comfort. At my age I need to avoid all the bruises and rub spots possible. I'd love to show in Western Dressage but I'll have to find a comfortable non-chairseat western saddle first.


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## existentialpony

IMHO, any horse that lopes on his forehand in a Western Pleasure class and any rider that wants to ride WP correctly is a candidate/target for dressage in a Western saddle.


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## bsms

Why not just encourage them to ride better? There are millions of western horses who move just fine without dressage lessons. There is nothing wrong with 'western horses' learning dressage, or jumping, or polo. It is the mixing of different traditions, combined with marketing that strikes me as demeaning both traditions, that I object to with WD. I'd respect WD more if it was defined as a two-event sport, with a combination of barrel racing scores and dressage providing the final score. Or reining & dressage._"The Western Dressage Association® of America (WDAA) was organized to provide western riders and horses with an educational program which incorporates the principles of lightness into a whole new way of thinking about riding western. Western Dressage helps a rider to improve the horse’s balance, cadence and carriage. Whether your horse competes in reining, roping, cutting, western pleasure, or enjoys the trail with you, using dressage will improve your partnership and keep your horse happier and more sound far longer than it would otherwise be...It is not the goal of Western Dressage to create western horses that compete in open dressage but to create better western horses and riders through the use and principles of dressage._"​FAQ

It seems the WD people think Western riding is about ham-fisted people riding unbalanced horses resulting in their breaking down and dying after an unhappy life - but WD is here to save western horses from western riding. Because, as we all know, western riders aren't light, or balanced. And our horses go lame early because we allow them to use their natural balance...:-x_"dressage will improve your partnership and keep your horse happier and more sound far longer than it would otherwise be"_​According to WD, if we don't use dressage, our horses will be unhappy and unsound...presumably because western riders suck. I don't know why anyone would take offense to marketing like that! :?


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## Joe4d

I dont see much in a dressage ring I would ever want my horse doing. Taht overly collected bounce in place stuff ? Yeh Ive seen a few of them come and try to do an actual trail ride. General Beauregard asked me, "what in tarnation is he doin ?", I told him "I dunno, seems like an awful lot of work to not get anywhere." Then Bo said, "Well maybe its that new "running man dance" I said, "could be, want some tequilla to take the edge off ?"..... Sure why not.


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## existentialpony

bsms... You can't take a quote, then claim the speaker is insisting the converse (eg. Dressage will improve a horse's soundness does not mean that a non-dressage horse will go unsound). Why look for conflict where there isn't any?


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## Joe4d

the quote says, it will keep the horse sound far longer than it would otherwise be. 
That isnot taking the converse as you put it. They are specifically claiming your horse will at some time be unsound when it wouldnt be if you do dressage, Sounds like malarky to me.


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## WSArabians

I think people should do whatever they want, but I have a real issue with seeing shank bits that are parallel to the ground. Good horsemanship? I think not.


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## KigerQueen

The sport is new and they are trying to get people into it, So bits and stricter rules will come later IMO. I would consider tying it. My mare HATES English saddles. I had mine fitted and everything but she still acts stupid in one. BOTH times that horse had hurt me was with one, so I stopped using it as she is fine in a western. And when I ride western I don't have a chair seat. I like the idea of western Dressage. I have seen the things people can get horses to do and western saddles and dressage is not the most amazing. If anything it will get the 'Anti-English' people involved in a sport where the horse is not half dead, or getting arthritic from what they are doing. IT could finally be the sport TBs can really do that's western as well.


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## WSArabians

Advertisement and Mis-Management before the welfare of the horse? Seems poorly managed. 

Not that I'm "Anti-English" but I know a ton of lame horses in their prime from english based sports. I know of a reiner who is 23, been shown his whole life, and is STILL shown reining. Therein comes your trainer.


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## COWCHICK77

WSArabians said:


> I think people should do whatever they want, but I have a real issue with seeing shank bits that are parallel to the ground. Good horsemanship? I think not.


^^^This is my biggest issue with western dressage. 
And if you look back at the post from bsms- quoted from the (WDAA)-
_" to provide western riders and horses with an educational program which incorporates the principles of lightness into a whole new way of thinking about riding western."_
Not sure if the WDAA allows curb bits, but if so I would not say they are encouraging lightness with most pictures I have seen shown just as WS described above.

I think I am confused by thinking that most shows, breed, local and schooling shows offer a Dressage class with the usual paraphernalia. So my question is, is it the change of tack that makes WD appealing?


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## Myya

Please don't rely on "pictures" to make judgments about what Western dressage or any dressage is supposed to be like. Photographers are looking for the most dramatic pose, not the most common or accepted one. Read the rules and find out from them what the goals and standards really are. I have only been to one Western Dressage show and since I knew very little about the difference between Western Dressage and (English) Dressage, I was looking for differences. The tack was obviously different, so as I observed it, I was surprised to see that all the participants rode with snaffle bits and with two hands - similar to (English) Dressage only with apparently a bit lighter contact than is usually seen in most dressage rings. (Some of the most respected Classical Dressage experts recommend a very light rein, btw.) Again, I saw NO curb bits, which surprised me (since one usually equates the curb bit with all Western riding), but made sense since dressage promotes lightness and not force (and I myself rode my Western horse in a snaffle so I do know that not all western horses are ridden exclusively in curbs). Again, in Classical/English Dressage competition the curb bit is only allowed at the most advanced levels, and it is correctly used only to indicate specific high level dressage moves like the piaffe.


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## KigerQueen

I can't ride my mare in an English saddle and I know a few people who HATE English (idk what their issue is but w/e) and have horses that would excel in the sport. My friend has a horse that you can ride bareback and in a western saddle, but if you put him in an English saddle he loses it (This is normally a dead broke horse). My mare thinks she is a race horse the moment you put an English saddle on her (NOT fun and has set to me almost to the hospital) If this sport takes off more people will learn to train the 'right way' as forced collection only takes you so far. Hopefully it will teach lightness. I used to ride a cutting horse where all I had to do to collect him was lift the reins off his nick slightly. Everything else was in my legs. If they teach people to collect the horses like that they could ride in shank bits and hardly touch the reins.

as for the bit issue with it being "parelell to the ground" there are sports that do that ALOT worst.










http://2010radioshow.horseradionetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/reiningexample.jpg











I have seen more damage done by english bits. A common bit is the twisted snaffle and Kimberwick (both that make my normally hard mouthed arab flip over). And I have seen Excessive force used on 'softer' english bits. In englsh, people use a cavison so the horse cant gape like a western one can.


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Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


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## COWCHICK77

Kiger, the difference is no team roping or barrel racing association is specifically promoting "lightness". 

Myya, that's great if you attended a show and everyone was using a snaffle with light contact. That is the way it should be done, in my opinion. Like I said, it is the heavy hand on a curb that I have an issue with.


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## KigerQueen

Agreed. Its a new sport, if they come steamrolling in with all these tight rules they might scare people off. I HOPE they will Require light hands, as should be, otherwise its not dressage.


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## boots

KigerQueen - Surely you didn't intend to justify the poor horsemanship in the WD videos by showing other examples of poor horsemanship, did you? Kind of "A lot of people ride in a less than good manner?"


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## Dustbunny

It will be interesting to see where Western Dressage is in 5 years.

Personally, I hope it succeeds, but it sure can cause a fluffup.


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## KigerQueen

Thats better horsemanship than i see at most horse shows. I have seen reining horses so broke down they start freaking out at the start of a pattern, or so arthritic they cant move. I have see the lovely ways they work the horses at the arabian horse shows. Running them with the bit to their ears regardless of the sport. And don't forget what happens in dressage. Pinning the horses head to its chest dose not sound like softness to me.


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## Myya

I've seen a lot of dramatic pictures of Rolkur but I have yet to see someone actually do it in real life.


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## KigerQueen

Go to he warm up arenas at shows. And someone did one at the last Olympics.


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## Myya

I don't doubt that people do it (there are idiots out there for sure), but it's certainly not universal. If it is, I must have missed that lesson. Perhaps that's because I'm seeking after "classical" dressage not "modern" dressage. (I know we can argue about the words but that's the simplest way to separate the two at the moment.) I hope that western dressage will model itself after the "classical" not the "modern" style dressage.


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## SEAmom

I guess I just don't see the issue with Western Dressage. I'm not Pro or Anti Dressage. My trainer showed upper levels of Dressage for decades and is even a consultant for the whatever national Dressage group there is. Can you tell I'm not a Dressage rider? Lol. She's written articles for magazines and had a book covering biomechanics. She's ridiculously intelligent and understands from the inside out how horses and riders work together. Even she is encouraging me to try out Western Dressage (and I also have a Dressage saddle from my days of jumping/Dressage lessons). I figure if she's fine with it, then it can't be all that bad. I have looked over the rules and horses can be shown in snaffle or curb bits. There's no reason curb shanks would be parallel to the ground is someone knows how to ride/show Western in a curb. Why can't there be a loose rein light contact? I've seen it plenty in Western riding. Why is everyone assuming shanks pulled straight back? Why does everyone see Western and assume contesting, reining, etc? 

Maybe because I didn't grow up around that stuff it isn't the first that comes to mind. I hear Western and I think Arabian Western pleasure or trail riding. That's what I was exposed to for a decade. I hear Dressage and I think classical because I wasn't familiar with modern ways. I didn't know how rough things have gotten until I started working with my trainer and she would tell me things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boots

SEAmom said:


> I guess I just don't see the issue with Western Dressage. I'm not Pro or Anti Dressage. My trainer showed upper levels of Dressage for decades and is even a consultant for the whatever national Dressage group there is. Can you tell I'm not a Dressage rider? Lol. She's written articles for magazines and had a book covering biomechanics. She's ridiculously intelligent and understands from the inside out how horses and riders work together. Even she is encouraging me to try out Western Dressage (and I also have a Dressage saddle from my days of jumping/Dressage lessons). I figure if she's fine with it, then it can't be all that bad. I have looked over the rules and horses can be shown in snaffle or curb bits. There's no reason curb shanks would be parallel to the ground if someone knows how to ride/show Western in a curb. Why can't there be a loose rein light contact? I've seen it plenty in Western riding. Why is everyone assuming shanks pulled straight back? Why does everyone see Western and assume contesting, reining, etc?
> 
> Maybe because I didn't grow up around that stuff it isn't the first that comes to mind. I hear Western and I think Arabian Western pleasure or trail riding. That's what I was exposed to for a decade. I hear Dressage and I think classical because I wasn't familiar with modern ways. I didn't know how rough things have gotten until I started working with my trainer and she would tell me things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Loose rein light contact is fine. Every professional horseman/cowboy I know rides with it. Certainly none ride with the droopy reins I've seen in western pleasure classes. 

My irritation comes from seeing curbs ridden on contact with two hands. That always indicates a lack of training. Why on earth would a western rider need both hands on the reins? Even when starting horses the use of a second hand on the reins is to reinforce the neck reining cue. Even both hands are going to be managing the reins, lose the saddle horn, because you sure aren't going to be tying on to anything! You also won't be needing the large tree of a western saddle, which is necessary to disperse the force when roping or dragging.

Western riding is a functional discipline. The rider needs a hand free to work. Horses that work are not ridden on collection for hours on end. They move more naturally than in a show ring frame. This is because the western horse covers ground. Real ground. And has to be able to use it's body in the way it was designed to move over country.

And, yes, a well-trained western horse will move into what appears to be dressage/show ring collection for certain movements when working cattle, they can be cued to move into that collection, but they will be asked to for only brief periods. Then they are encouraged to return to their more relaxed state.


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## bsms

boots, I often ride with two hands...and slack in the reins. I started riding with 2 hands, and it feel really weird to my balance to put one hand on my thigh. I've been putting my free hand on the horn, which at least keeps the balance I feel with both hands forward. It isn't right, but that is what I find hardest about riding with one hand - it just feels unbalanced to me.

Yes, a training issue. And I have so many...:-?...but I guess that just means I need to ride more!


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## boots

bsms said:


> boots, I often ride with two hands...and slack in the reins. I started riding with 2 hands, and it feel really weird to my balance to put one hand on my thigh. I've been putting my free hand on the horn, which at least keeps the balance I feel with both hands forward. It isn't right, but that is what I find hardest about riding with one hand - it just feels unbalanced to me.
> 
> Yes, a training issue. And I have so many...:-?...but I guess that just means I need to ride more!


And may you never have the need to ride less! Less = :-(. More = !


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## WSArabians

Myya said:


> Please don't rely on "pictures" to make judgments about what Western dressage or any dressage is supposed to be like. Photographers are looking for the most dramatic pose, not the most common or accepted one.


I wasn't basing my opinion on a few photographs, but rather a lot of videos of the pros doing demonstrations as to what WD is. And everyone had two hands on a shank bit that was parallel to the ground. 
Just not my thing. Probably not the horse's mouth thing either.


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## WSArabians

bsms said:


> boots, I often ride with two hands...and slack in the reins. I started riding with 2 hands, and it feel really weird to my balance to put one hand on my thigh. I've been putting my free hand on the horn, which at least keeps the balance I feel with both hands forward. It isn't right, but that is what I find hardest about riding with one hand - it just feels unbalanced to me.
> 
> Yes, a training issue. And I have so many...:-?...but I guess that just means I need to ride more!


I don't think you look bad. Loose rein, loose shank. 
I had (probably have again as I haven't rode in almost a year!) an issue with leaning forward too much and I tended to make my horses use their shoulders more then their hind end, which was the exact opposite of what I wanted. 
My old trainer had me reach back to the back of the saddle to keep me upright. And cutters hang onto their horn all the time. LOL


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## ropinbiker

I guess I am in the why??? club...it seems that western and dressage really don't go together -- 

and, as to the picture of the team ropers used as a "harsh" example of using a curb -- the horse in question's mouth isn't gaping open(as alot of dressage horses do - even in a snaffle), which tells me that he is only using the needed amount of pressure to set the horse for the upcoming corner...it's a lot to ask of a horse - sit in a box, waiting to burst out at full speed, outrun the cow in order to put the roper in the proper position, then hold that speed while the roper throws the loop, THEN slow the cow to break it's momentum, while putting more weight on the hind end in order to make a smooth left turn....so, unless you rope, please don't comment and use pictures about stuff you know nothing about!


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## Myya

I'm glad the "one hand vs two" issue was mentioned. Dressage has it's root in the working war horse, who was ridden with ONE hand. The top classical dressage riders/trainers of today still ultimately ride with only one hand, when not in the ring or using that second hand for training (just as it is used on western training when needed).

If you have a horse devoted exclusively to one narrow discipline (like barrel racing, for example), then you probably have little need for dressage. If you want more of a well rounded mount, dressage can be a tremendous help, or if you are having problems within your favorite discipline, dressage can often help with those situations as well (for example, an English jumper will often benefit from having basic dressage training).


There is a wonderful video of the ultimate classical dressage trainer of this century, Nuno Oliveira, riding with one hand on Youtube, btw. 

IMHO, the more I am able to connect with my horse and willingly get him to obey, the better. The more I am able to willingly get my horse to do, that I enjoy doing, the better. I suppose I enjoy the "training" aspect of riding and would not be happy with a push-button horse who wins in the Western Pleasure class but can't do anything else, or is bomb-proof on the trial but won't canter when and where I ask. Classical Dressage (whether in an English saddle or a Western one) is simply about learning good riding skills and helping your horse to become more athletic, balanced, light, responsive, etc.


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## bsms

Myya said:


> ...IMHO, the more I am able to connect with my horse and willingly get him to obey, the better. The more I am able to willingly get my horse to do, that I enjoy doing, the better. I suppose I enjoy the "training" aspect of riding and would not be happy with a push-button horse...


Amen. I got into riding by buying a horse and starting riding. She was sold as 'perfect for a beginner'. She wasn't even close - but it is that strong personality of hers, and her need to overcome her fears, that captured me. Had I bought a push-button horse, I would have been bored. She was both a horrible horse for a beginner like me, and perfect for me. I needed a horse who would challenge me, and she needed a rider who would not give up on her. We both got what we needed, although we still have issues to work on after 5 1/2 years...:wink:

I may not see a reason for Western Dressage, but if it helps some people work with their horses and build that give & take, then it is OK. I just wish they would change the name.


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## COWCHICK77

KigerQueen said:


> Thats better horsemanship than i see at most horse shows. I have seen reining horses so broke down they start freaking out at the start of a pattern, or so arthritic they cant move.


What reining shows are you going to? At the smaller open or schooling shows is where you see the anticipation that you are mistaking for being broke down. It is anticipation about the center of the pen and it takes correct training and relaxation to either to keep it from happening or fix.

SEAmom, if you Google "Western Dressage" and go to the images there is quite a few pictures of horses being ridden two handed and the shanks pulled back on a curb bit. I realize that a photo is only a snippet in time but most of the images came from websites and magazines _choosing_ to use that picture which would make me think that is acceptable to their standards.

Myya, I have no issue with dressage at all to make that clear, again it is the heavy hand on a curb that is my issue. I too believe that dressage can be beneficial for most riders. I took my first lesson with a dressage trainer this last spring, a wonderful lady I have known all my life, and loved it. I did take my lesson in my ranch saddle but I used a snaffle. I never hurt so bad and for so long after only an hour or so of riding! I enjoyed the torture and apply it to my western riding but if I was ever to switch to showing Dressage I would buy a Dressage saddle and bridle.


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## SEAmom

Now, CowChick, surely you're aware that I can do a google search on every major riding discipline and find equal pictures that are used in discipline-specific publications. Like I said, I'm neither for or against it. I just think it's interesting to see all the hub-bub over a new "discipline". 

I'm sure very similar scoffing occured over many new breeds over the centuries, but now they're just accepted as their own breed rather than the "cocktail" they really are. How about the commotion that surely happened when horse shows first came about? Imagine people taking their horsemanship from the war zone to the Spanish Riding School. How about when ranchers took their prized stock from the cattle drive to the arena? The lightbulb didn't go off over the head of everyone who has working cow horses all at once to compete their horses for titles and recognition. A few people got together and formed a group. This group grew and...voila! Were there ranchers who scoffed and looked down their noses at the idea of showing off perfectly good working horses when those horses could be out working the cattle drive? Sure! What about when people went from fox hunting to competitive eventing, jumping, show jumping, hunters, etc. Or from the frontline to dressage? Of course, these things don't happen overnight. They can't. Surely there was controversy because people as a whole don't like change. 

So what if there are groups of people who enjoy doing western dressage? If you don't like it, don't it. They aren't trying to start a "chase horses with battleaxes" group and make that into a sport. They're taking two interesting disciplines that are commonly thought of as polar opposites and combining them? Why is that so terrible?

Also, not all western is functional. It just isn't. That's like saying all my organs are functional (well, they're all in good working order I suppose, but that's not the functional we're talking about). My appendix serves no purpose, but it's still there. At one time was western riding almost solely functional? Sure it was! That's where western pleasure, trail classes, reining, team penning, etc come from. Western is a very broad term. So, in a sense western dressage is also functional. It has it's basis in a very real form of riding that has been around far longer than any of us have. 

As for bits, again curbs are used in multiple disciplines. Why does it matter if they're used in western dressage? I can give many instances where I've watched with my own two eyes horse shows with western classes of all varieties where curbs are used roughly. I mean "wow" roughly. None of them being western dressage. Curbs are just as abused throughout the entire horse world. I've watched people at my barn who are pleasure riders yank around on their horses' mouths with high port curbs. I've watched people in contesting yank around on their horses' mouths with hefty curbs. I've also watched people in both instances use light movements and only gradually get more insistent when they need to, just like anyone with a non-shanked bit. Like I see often on this forum, it's not the bit that's cruel, it's the hands that control it. Here's an excerpt straight from the WDAA FAQ page regarding tack that I found interesting considering the whole "curb" discussion:



> *What is the difference between Western Dressage and traditional Dressage?*
> 
> The goals of Western Dressage and Dressage are similar. They both wish to create a better horse and rider with the use of structure and levels. The Western Dressage horse is encouraged to work and school on lighter contact than the typical dressage horses. While both want to see balance, cadence and carriage, the Western Dressage horse will be evaluated with the conformation and movement of today’s western horses in mind. The Western Dressage horse will have a shorter stride than a Dressage horse and the Western Dressage horse will be asked to walk, jog and lope as opposed to walk, trot and canter. In keeping with the tradition of the Western horse and rider they will be shown in Western tack and clothing. These are just a few examples of the differences.
> It is not the goal of Western Dressage to create western horses that compete in open dressage but to create better western horses and riders through the use and principles of dressage.
> 
> *Do I need special tack, equipment, or clothing to show in Western Dressage?*
> 
> No! The current USEF rule book permits riders to perform the tests in either a standard western snaffle bit, which is defined in the rule book, or in a standard western bit which is also defined there. You may use your western saddle and your western headstall and reins.
> The WDAA will request a change in the USEF rules regarding bits. The WDAA will request changes which will require, at the lowest test levels, the use of a snaffle bit only, along with a caveson which is loose enough to permit two fingers comfortably between the caveson and the horse’s nose. Please review the Western Dressage rules for details.


Please note the paragraph that specifically calls out that there will be a rule change request to change lower levels to snaffle bit ONLY. After the rule change, what will be the argument then?

As with all disciplines, new or well-established, there will be those who disagree. How many threads have we seen where western riders gang up on dressage riders? How many threads have we seen where trail riders are belittle because they're "just trail riding"? We don't all have to agree, and I completely support that idea. I just like to see discussions where participants can use logical reasoning and thought out ideas to express themselves. It's tough when we look at threads full of comments like, "I hate ___ because it's cruel!" Why is it cruel? "Because, because...well, because I said so!" When really this comes more from a place of ignorance (no insults intended) or a lack of solid understanding.

As I stated before, I'm neither for nor against Western Dressage. I just want to know more of the why beyond "Well, I saw pictures!" Is it that people don't like seeing something like dressage being infused with western? Are these primarily dressage riders who aren't fans of western or vice versa? I'm not trying to make any assumptions. I would just like for all of us to get a better understanding.


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## Myya

> The WDAA will request a change in the USEF rules regarding bits. The WDAA will request changes which will require, at the lowest test levels, the use of a snaffle bit only, along with a caveson which is loose enough to permit two fingers comfortably between the caveson and the horse’s nose. Please review the Western Dressage rules for details.


I am curious as to why the WDAA would request that a caveson be "required"? I recently removed the nose band/caveson completely from my horse's dressage bridle. There should be no need for it, since a comfortable horse will naturally keep his mouth closed (except for acceptable mouthing of the bit and softening of the jaw).


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## boots

Myya said:


> There is a wonderful video of the ultimate classical dressage trainer of this century, Nuno Oliveira, riding with one hand on Youtube, btw.


 
Just watched a couple of those videos. Wow. Beautiful rides.


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## WSArabians

SEAmom said:


> I just want to know more of the why beyond "Well, I saw pictures!" Is it that people don't like seeing something like dressage being infused with western? Are these primarily dressage riders who aren't fans of western or vice versa? I'm not trying to make any assumptions. I would just like for all of us to get a better understanding.


I could care less if it's reining, dressage, jumping, pole bending, fox hunting, HUS or any other under saddle event - if I see a shank bit parallel to the ground, I'm going to have a problem with it. It just happens that every video I watch of this, that's what happens. It's not how a shank is supposed to be used, and that's for a good reason. IMO.


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## longride

While I'm not a fan of curb bits at the lower levels, I'm not seeing curbs shanks parallel to the ground. What I do see are horses that are on light contact going behind the vertical when the rider has to use the curb in momentary loses of balance that are natural for horses at the lower levels. This isn't good dressage, but it isn't abuse either. I've also seen a noticeable increase in the quality of rides as more people seek good instructors. One woman who gets excellent scores shows WD in a curb, but also shows upper level dressage english and rides with top dressage instructors. Her horse actually looks better - more open and free moving, shown western in the curb than english in a snaffle.


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## longride

BTW, the cavesson isn't required. The rule change referred to is that when used, it must be loose enough to allow two fingers - no crank nosebands allowed. The western cavesson is really a practical feature meant to provide a way to tie a horse, not a training device.


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## KigerQueen

The reining horse was an arab I used to ride at school by the name of Cobask. If you even acted like you where going to do a pattern he would chomp at the bit and start freaking out. Not the 'I want to run' freak out more of the 'oh god no' freak out. And My friend had an ex reining horse that was so arthritic that he was going to be put down. I don't think WD should be ridden with 2 hands ether. Western with a curb is a one handed discipline. There is no need to pull that much on a well trained horses mouth. A cutting trainer i know could just lift the reins of the withers and the horse would collect. The horse would do EVERYTHING with just his seat. I would like this sport to take off as English saddles and me don't mix.


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## SEAmom

So, all I'm getting for why anyone doesn't like WD is because some riders who use curb bits ride improperly with them. Right? 

Okay, so take out those people. What's so horribly wrong with WD? If/When they do a rule change to disallow curbs at lower levels, then what will anyone have to complain about? 

This is what I'm trying to get to. Let's get beyond the curbs being incorrectly used - that happens everywhere that curbs are used. Assume they're all in snaffles with their western horses. What else is there that's so awful with WD?


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## bsms

SEAmom said:


> ...What else is there that's so awful with WD?


Just that it isn't related to western riding. Traditional western riding is not oriented to riding in an arena, with a significant degree of sustained collection.

Western riding should be oriented to ranch work, or imitating the needs of ranch work. If western dressage was a two event program, one with speed and agility (barrel racing comes to mind) and the second was dressage dressage, with a combined score...I could relate to that.

It is kind of like Western Show Jumping, where you do show jumping but in a western saddle using quarter horses. Haven't heard of it? That is because it is a pretty dumb idea. It may or may not be fun, but it would not be related to western riding.

When someone says "Western", I think of this:








​ 
"_Emory H. Sager, of the Shoe Bar, on "Old Blue" his favorite cutting horse, working the herd out on roundup grounds. Shoe Bar Ranch, Texas_, 1912"

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

Notice there is no riding the horse in a frame, no putting him on the bit, his forehead isn't vertical, he isn't using a collected gait per FEI...it just isn't dressage. That doesn't make dressage wrong in any way, but dressage and western riding are not like peanut butter & chocolate - just because things sound odd together doesn't mean they really DO go together!

If they wanted to call it "Beginner Dressage" to allow folks to explore dressage without all the tack, etc...fine. But there isn't much about it that is western...


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## Myya

Dressage is mostly "just good riding". It's about balance and lightness and rhythm. It's about making the horse more comfortable to ride and about teaching the rider to ride better. It's about teaching your horse to respond in a quick but relaxed manner to whatever you ask of him. It's about teaching him to stop without throwing himself on his forehand or jerking his head up in the air. I think all those things and more, apply to western riding as well as English Dressage. If you can manipulate your western horse easily through a gate, you're probably doing more dressage than you realize. Same with riding off your seat and neck reining - both are very, very much like dressage. As I see it, competing in Western Dressage is just another way to enjoy your horse and to improve your riding skills and your connection with your horse. 

I also think it should be mentioned that the Western horse (the Quarter horse) has it's roots in the Spanish Barbs brought to the Americas by the Spaniards. Guess what those horses were originally bred and trained to do? Bingo: Dressage. Okay, it probably wasn't called "Dressage" then, (actually it probably was, since "dressage" simply means "training"), and the saddles looked different, but the Spanish horse was (and still is today) built for collection and for use as a good riding horse for war, and working cattle, and just about every other purpose a horse might be used for. 

Is collection foreign to Western horses? I don't think so. A western horse doing a sliding stop is collected. A western horse can not to a proper roll-back or spin without being collected. I'm sure any horse in any western show class would be penalized if he went along leaning on his forehand, or with a hollowed back and his nose up in the air. Why? Because western judges are looking for "collection" too. Not to mention that English dressage classes all include the "free walk" which is virtually identical to low headed, stretching down, Western walk. 

So, so many similarities. I'm surprised no one thought of this before.


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## longride

Dressage, as has been mentioned, isn't about riding around in a ring. That is just a test - not the thing. If you took math test, you would never then say that math is not practical. 

Western riding is a many faceted thing. The oldest tradition, from which our modern saddle and cattle working practices come, did and still does use sustained collection. That doesn't mean the horse isn't allowed to stretch out and use it's head and neck or that every vaquero rider will show a horse that looks like it could do 2nd level, but the carriage that was standard for working western horses in the California tradition up until the late 1960s was that of a 2nd level dressage horse. It doesn't matter that the training is done in the open, using natural features to build and encourage collection and bend.


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## Muppetgirl

I'm finding it interesting that reining is getting bashed, considering it is the one of the primary sports that emphasizes one handed draped rein curb use. SEAmom any horse can be blown up and crippled by poor horsemanship. 

The problem as I see it with WD, and so far I've seen quite a bit of it is that the two handed plow reining on the curb is to me like what you'd see when people are schooling EXCEPT good riders offer release, pick up and put down, not a consistent taut rein and horses ducking behind the vertical like you see at these shows. 

When I'm schooling my reining horse it moments of picking him up for a few strides and then releasing, those shanks are never consistently parallel to the ground, ever. 

Anyone who thinks its ok to ride in curb like that consistently and push the horse BEHIND the bit is fooling themselves. They're using the strength of the bit to achieve a false sense of ability and achievement. Sad really.


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## SEAmom

> Just that it isn't related to western riding. Traditional western riding is not oriented to riding in an arena, with a significant degree of sustained collection.


Thank you for your response, bsms. That's the best answer I've heard to date. One that actually makes sense. 

I had this great response all typed up on my phone already, but my husband called and it all went away. So frustrating!

My answer is this:
I think it's a shame that so few people can see the similarities between Western and dressage. Dressage was never established for arenas either. It was to keep war horses conditioned and battle ready. It was only brought into an arena for riders to showcase the abilities of their mounts. Same thing happened with reining, cutting, trail, WP, etc. Those are all arena work now with a basis outside of the arena.

There are many similarities between the two. All that hind end propulsion, self-Carriage, lightness in the front end, etc. is the same that Dressage riders strive toward. Sure, you won't see a cutting horse doing a levade. Think about it - leg yields, piaffes, voltes just to name a few. All dressage terms, but you see them in western disciplines in different variations. 

I think part of it is the division between Western and English. Why would you want to stop someone who wants to develop correct riding skills and build a better partnership with their horse? I know my horse could do WD, but not any other western discipline or English Dressage. Why would it be so bad for us to do that? Isn't a goal of riding to build a partnership with your horse? Wouldn't it be better to see riders want to do that through correct riding and subtle communication and for horses to work correctly and balanced in tune with their riders cues? That type of riding is useful everywhere, even on the trail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SEAmom

Muppetgirl said:


> I'm finding it interesting that reining is getting bashed, considering it is the one of the primary sports that emphasizes one handed draped rein curb use. SEAmom any horse can be blown up and crippled by poor horsemanship.
> 
> The problem as I see it with WD, and so far I've seen quite a bit of it is that the two handed plow reining on the curb is to me like what you'd see when people are schooling EXCEPT good riders offer release, pick up and put down, not a consistent taut rein and horses ducking behind the vertical like you see at these shows.
> 
> When I'm schooling my reining horse it moments of picking him up for a few strides and then releasing, those shanks are never consistently parallel to the ground, ever.
> 
> Anyone who thinks its ok to ride in curb like that consistently and push the horse BEHIND the bit is fooling themselves. They're using the strength of the bit to achieve a false sense of ability and achievement. Sad really.


I'm sorry you feel that reining is getting bashed. I'm certainly not bashing any discipline here. Again, I agree that harsh curb bit use is bad any time, every time. I completely agree with what you're saying, so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make towards WD. Let's move beyond the curb issue, though. What other reason do you have to dislike WD, if you dislike it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Muppetgirl

SEAmom said:


> I'm sorry you feel that reining is getting bashed. I'm certainly not bashing any discipline here. Again, I agree that harsh curb bit use is bad any time, every time. I completely agree with what you're saying, so I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make towards WD. Let's move beyond the curb issue, though. What other reason do you have to dislike WD, if you dislike it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't necessarily dislike it as a 'whole' but I wouldn't endorse it BECAUSE of the lack of correct curb use. It seems to be a big thing to overlook and to blindly ride around like that makes me scratch my head.....if I was riding around like that I'd be yelled at:shock:


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## longride

Muppetgirl, what makes you so sure heavy contact on a curb is being overlooked? Are you in on the discussions among the rule makers? Have you attended a Train the Trainers Clinic or any clinic by Lynn Palm, Barbara Long, Les Buckley, Jec Ballou or any of the other members of the Advisory Committee? Have you talked to the judges and asked them how it affects the scores? Just because you see it doesn't mean it's considered correct or is what is meant. While the rules allow two hands, the guidelines for judges stress lightness of contact.


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## Muppetgirl

longride said:


> Muppetgirl, what makes you so sure heavy contact on a curb is being overlooked? Are you in on the discussions among the rule makers? Have you attended a Train the Trainers Clinic or any clinic by Lynn Palm, Barbara Long, Les Buckley, Jec Ballou or any of the other members of the Advisory Committee? Have you talked to the judges and asked them how it affects the scores? Just because you see it doesn't mean it's considered correct or is what is meant. While the rules allow two hands, the guidelines for judges stress lightness of contact.


I could ask the same of you. Lets look at it this way, rookie reining and green Reiner classes allow two hands on a preferrably DRAPED rein, it doesn't always happen, but it's the goal. Why am I not seeing draped reins in these classes? And when I do see a draped rein I see a horse in a false frame ducking BTV? 
Curbs are for neck reining and to be used accordingly, not plow reined on, I think we all agree to that. It's simple and from my knowledge and understanding from talking to plenty of others the way the curb is used in many examples of WD is not correct.


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## SEAmom

Oh, blast it all. I had responded to your comment, MuppetGirl, but my phone must have messed up in the process of posting.

Did you see where i posted that a rule change will be happening soon to disallow curbs in lower levels? It would appear that your concern is already being addressed. Once that is in effect, will you then be fine with WD as a discipline? You have to remember, not everyone rides/shows in a curb and not all of those using a curb are using it incorrectly. You're really only referring to a small percentage of riders. With WD being so new, these heavy-handed riders likely had this bad habit from the getgo that was established in some other discipline of riding and it carried over to WD. Using similar logic, there should be no showing in any Western discipline where curbs are used simply because there are people everywhere who use them incorrectly. Why cut off your nose to spite your face, though? 

Again, moving beyond the parallel curbs (which can and do occur everywhere curbs are used), what do you dislike? Or is it like bsms stated and the thought of an "English" discipline in the "western" world just chaps your hiney? 

I genuinely want to get to the root of all this disgust and disapproval - beyond curb bits, of course.


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## bsms

Myya said:


> Dressage is mostly "just good riding". It's about balance and lightness and rhythm. It's about making the horse more comfortable to ride and about teaching the rider to ride better. It's about teaching your horse to respond in a quick but relaxed manner to whatever you ask of him. It's about teaching him to stop without throwing himself on his forehand or jerking his head up in the air.
> *
> I disagree. Dressage may do those things, but it does so with a different goal and using a different style than traditional western riding. Dressage is NOT about "teaching your horse to respond in a quick but relaxed manner to whatever you ask of him". You can do that with a forward seat. You can do that with a chair seat. You can do that in the traditional western style of riding. You can also NOT do that in dressage, if you are a dressage buffoon - just as you can NOT do it using ANY approach to riding, if you are a buffoon.*
> 
> I think all those things and more, apply to western riding as well as English Dressage. If you can manipulate your western horse easily through a gate, you're probably doing more dressage than you realize. Same with riding off your seat and neck reining - both are very, very much like dressage.
> *
> So if I do those in a forward seat, I'm doing dressage? I think not. There is a reason dressage teachers teach a style of riding. It is the style that works best for dressage. A dressage instructor won't show someone a picture of a top cutter and tell them to ride like that - unless they are being asked about cutting.
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> There are different styles meant to support different goals in riding. That makes sense. We do not all ride dressage.*
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> As I see it, competing in Western Dressage is just another way to enjoy your horse and to improve your riding skills and your connection with your horse.
> *
> It is, but it uses dressage as it base, not traditional western riding.*
> 
> I also think it should be mentioned that the Western horse (the Quarter horse) has it's roots in the Spanish Barbs brought to the Americas by the Spaniards. Guess what those horses were originally bred and trained to do? Bingo: Dressage. Okay, it probably wasn't called "Dressage" then, (actually it probably was, since "dressage" simply means "training"), and the saddles looked different, but the Spanish horse was (and still is today) built for collection and for use as a good riding horse for war, and working cattle, and just about every other purpose a horse might be used for.
> 
> Is collection foreign to Western horses? I don't think so. A western horse doing a sliding stop is collected. A western horse can not to a proper roll-back or spin without being collected.
> *
> TEMPORARY, SHORT DURATION collection. The ultimate goal of dressage is sustained, collected gaits (per the FEI). You can teach momentary collection to a horse in one ride. It doesn't require years of training. Dressage, OTOH, rewards certain builds of horses and requires years of training - because its goals differ from traditional western riding.
> 
> Sustained collection is SLOW. The West is BIG. BIG & SLOW don't match well.*
> 
> I'm sure any horse in any western show class would be penalized if he went along leaning on his forehand, or with a hollowed back and his nose up in the air. Why? Because western judges are looking for "collection" too.
> *
> No, they are looking for balance. Leaning on the forehand is not balanced. I was reminded of that last night, when I rode my mare in a snaffle for a change, and she kept trying her old trick of cantering with her nose at the ground. My back is throbbing right now from fighting her. She can do a relaxed & balanced canter when she wants, but she will never get the training required for a true collected canter gait.* *And that is OK. Just as it is OK to want to teach sustained, collected gaits.*
> 
> Not to mention that English dressage classes all include the "free walk" which is virtually identical to low headed, stretching down, Western walk.
> *
> That 'western walk' is a fad used in some sports (WP). It is not how most horses move on the open range. West. Range. Open spaces. Long distances. Barrel racing tests certain facets of movements used in a lot of traditional western riding - speed and quick turns. Dressage does not.* * That does not make dressage wrong. It just isn't traditional western riding, rooted in the ranches of the west.*
> 
> So, so many similarities. I'm surprised no one thought of this before.





SEAmom said:


> ...I think it's a shame that so few people can see the similarities between Western and dressage. Dressage was never established for arenas either. It was to keep war horses conditioned and battle ready.
> *
> That is a myth, IMHO. It was used for parade grounds. The US Cavalry looked at dressage in the 1800s and concluded it had no value for cavalry horses. The moves that were supposedly good for war are actually moves that would make it easier for a foot soldier to kill the horse. And the US Cavalry concluded that dressage training for the typical horse would cause it to break down faster than one without.
> 
> *It was only brought into an arena for riders to showcase the abilities of their mounts. Same thing happened with reining, cutting, trail, WP, etc. Those are all arena work now with a basis outside of the arena.
> 
> There are many similarities between the two. All that hind end propulsion, self-Carriage, lightness in the front end, etc. is the same that Dressage riders strive toward. Sure, you won't see a cutting horse doing a levade. Think about it - leg yields, piaffes, voltes just to name a few. All dressage terms, but you see them in western disciplines in different variations.
> 
> *Not really. You can do a leg yield without doing dressage. A piaffe, again, has little use on a ranch. Per the FEI, dressage is interested in SUSTAINED collection, and the training scale exists to get to that goal without hurting the horse. *
> 
> I think part of it is the division between Western and English. Why would you want to stop someone who wants to develop correct riding skills and build a better partnership with their horse?
> *
> I don't. I just object to the assumption that western riders do NOT, already, have correct riding skills and build partnerships with their horses. What is 'correct riding'? Dressage teaches heel - hip - shoulder - ear alignment, which truly IS right for dressage. If you want to give subtle cues to your horse with your heel, it needs to be in a location to do that. But like a lot of western riders thru history, I find my legs are more comfortably wrapped around my horse, my horse stays facing the front better and relaxes more, when I ride with my heels forward of my belt buckle.
> 
> If this guy hired a dressage instructor, the instructor would think, "I've got a source of income for YEAR ahead of me...":*
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> *I ride with my heels a bit further back, and my stirrups a bit shorter, but I have ridden in that position many times and it works fine. For western riding. So does this, which is actually my goal for riding. If this guy moved his shoulders forward, his weight would be carried on a forward seat and he'd be ready to haul butt:*
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> I know my horse could do WD, but not any other western discipline or English Dressage.
> *
> I'm curious - why can your horse do nothing but WD?*
> 
> Why would it be so bad for us to do that? Isn't a goal of riding to build a partnership with your horse? Wouldn't it be better to see riders want to do that through correct riding and subtle communication and for horses to work correctly and balanced in tune with their riders cues?
> *
> There is nothing wrong. However, both the name of WD and its stated goals claim western riders need to learn how to do that, and I find that offensive. Mia and I are partners. We have learned how to ride together. Since neither of us knew what we were doing at the beginning, it has been a give & take - I learn something and teach her, she learns something and teaches me. Most western riders learn on a broke horse, which would have been nice. However, the style or riding used in traditional western riding is not abusive, wrong, bad for the horse, domineering or unbalanced.*
> 
> That type of riding is useful everywhere, even on the trail.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My comments in bold. I guess my heartburn with WD is that it assumes western riders suck and that we need to imitate dressage to learn how to ride right. This isn't 'right' yet, because Mia & I are both in the learning stage. But it isn't 'wrong' either. I don't need to bring my heels back, and she doesn't need to tuck her head. I do need to learn riding with one hand, although it feels weird to me - but you can tell Mia isn't stressing over it, either. And I really need to relax my back:








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## Muppetgirl

SEAmom said:


> Oh, blast it all. I had responded to your comment, MuppetGirl, but my phone must have messed up in the process of posting.
> 
> Did you see where i posted that a rule change will be happening soon to disallow curbs in lower levels? It would appear that your concern is already being addressed. Once that is in effect, will you then be fine with WD as a discipline? You have to remember, not everyone rides/shows in a curb and not all of those using a curb are using it incorrectly. You're really only referring to a small percentage of riders. With WD being so new, these heavy-handed riders likely had this bad habit from the getgo that was established in some other discipline of riding and it carried over to WD. Using similar logic, there should be no showing in any Western discipline where curbs are used simply because there are people everywhere who use them incorrectly. Why cut off your nose to spite your face, though?
> 
> Again, moving beyond the parallel curbs (which can and do occur everywhere curbs are used), what do you dislike? Or is it like bsms stated and the thought of an "English" discipline in the "western" world just chaps your hiney?
> 
> I genuinely want to get to the root of all this disgust and disapproval - beyond curb bits, of course.


I have no disgust or disapproval BEYOND the improper use of the curb. I posted a while back a WD demo video held at a show introducing WD - the curb was parallel the whole time and I was not impressed by the way it was put forward to the crowd. I'm glad they've made a change to the rules and it will certainly sort the goats from the sheep, achieving what they're doing now in curbs with a snaffle will offer the challenge that's required IMO. No more short cuts.


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## SEAmom

It's easy to read anything and become offended. "I enjoy seeing rainbows!" ....... "Rainbows mean rain! There could be a flood somewhere. You're glad people just lost their homes?!" I don't honestly think WDAA is implying that all other western riding is inferior. Though, if you're genuinely owned by that statement, do something about it. Contact the board, email the webmaster. Bring it to their attention so they know. 

Dressage as it was established "back in the day" wasn't meant to mimic actual war maneuvers. It was to keep the horses challenged, mentally and physically, and in battle-ready condition. Sure, the horses were paraded around before and after battles, but that was not for the horses. It was for the soldiers to be seen and the "commoners" to see them. Did they do tricks with the horses? Probably. Why not? It boosts the moral of the people and shows the superiority and capability of the riders. How much faith would you have had in a mounted army who couldn't control their mounts? Compare that to the confidence you would have if an army who could make their horses jump in the air on command. 

My point with the movement names was that they do exist in a similar form in western disciplines. Leg yielding isn't inherently Dressage-only. It's used in Dressage the same as it's used in reining patterns. It's still a leg yield and accomplishes the same task. A two-point in jumping is the same as a two-point in racing and accomplishes the same task - getting the rider of the horse's back. The racer isn't jumping, though, nor is the jumper racing. A volte in Dressage is the same method used on many barrel racers to help them balance themselves in those tight turns. Not knowing how to train for reining, I can only speculate that reiners start with circles that get smaller and smaller (volte). A pirouette in Dressage is the same basic maneuver as the spin in reining or even the turn in showmanship (whatever that's called) just with a slightly different application and slight variation. The hind end power in cutting horses is amazing to keep a horse light enough in front to follow a cow. Compare that to the power in the hind end required for a levade (granted I don't think is really seen outside of the Spanish riding school). 

You have to look beyond the obvious differences in appearance at the deeper meaning of the moves. It's almost like you're looking at granny smooth apples and red delicious apples and saying they aren't both apples because one is green and the other is red. The seat in all disciplines best promotes that discipline. I agree completely with this statement. That doesn't mean you aren't accomplishing essentially the exact same goal.


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## SEAmom

Oh, I forgot to clarify one thing. I didn't say he couldn't do anything other than WD. I said other western disciplines and English Dressage. He doesn't have the motion desired for English Dressage, the cow instinct for any working cow events, the conformation for things like reining, the motion desired for WP, etc. He can do trail probably one he can focus longer than a couple of minutes at a time. He could probably do some contesting if he can keep his legs under himself (clumsy horse). He has no hope of doing any of the above listed events with any kind of solid skill. Now, Arabian hunt seat he can do in ammy classes. Maybe even show hack. I'm just pointing out that it gives us something in western that we could both do. I have no interest in contesting, personally. He could probably jump, too, but I have no interest in intentionally leaping off the ground on my horse.


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## longride

I do have the credentials. I talk with the members of the Rules and Tests committees regularly and these are topics that come up repeatedly. I also work with judges. If it were solely up to me the rule allowing curb bits in the lower levels would never have been there, but the people who wrote the original rules and the people who will modify them over time are not the same. I think change will come, but in the meantime education of both competitors and judges is key. What I've seen of top reiners using two hands is not draped reins in the sense I see it in Western Horsemanship. What I'd like to see under the rulse we have now is the rein soft, not draped the way they are in Western Horsemanship. There are examples of this two handed in this clip Cutting, Sorting, Ranch Horse For Sale - YouTube


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## bsms

SEAmom said:


> It's easy to read anything and become offended. "I enjoy seeing rainbows!" ....... "Rainbows mean rain! There could be a flood somewhere. You're glad people just lost their homes?!" I don't honestly think WDAA is implying that all other western riding is inferior...


Suppose WD said something like"_Dressage riders! We're here to help you. Ditch your dressage saddle, buy some western tack, and learn from us how to ride with lightness! In WESTERN dressage, we will teach you to ride your horse with balance and lightness and rhythm. It's about making the horse more comfortable to ride and about teaching the rider to ride better. It's about teaching your horse to respond in a quick but relaxed manner to whatever you ask of him. It's about teaching him to stop without squeezing his face into his chest, and moving naturally instead of riding with your back braced against the horse's pull. We'll teach you correct riding, and subtle communication and for your horses to work correctly and balanced, in tune with their riders cues._

_ Come learn WESTERN Dressage, and learn to move and ride as one with your horse!_"​Do you think the average dressage rider would find that offensive? I do. I would, if I had studied dressage and tried to ride dressage well.

The things the WD fans have written on this thread in the last few days are offensive. The underlying assumption is that western riders need to use dressage, because dressage is superior and western riders are inferior and by learning dressage, even if it is on the cheap, western riders will learn how to ride properly. Properly meaning "like a dressage rider". Because western riders don't ride with _ balance and lightness and rhythm. :evil:
_


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## Myya

> Suppose WD said something like
> "_Dressage riders! We're here to help you. Ditch your dressage saddle, buy some western tack, and learn from us how to ride with lightness! In WESTERN dressage, we will teach you to ride your horse with balance and lightness and rhythm. It's about making the horse more comfortable to ride and about teaching the rider to ride better. It's about teaching your horse to respond in a quick but relaxed manner to whatever you ask of him. It's about teaching him to stop without squeezing his face into his chest, and moving naturally instead of riding with your back braced against the horse's pull. We'll teach you correct riding, and subtle communication and for your horses to work correctly and balanced, in tune with their riders cues._
> 
> _Come learn WESTERN Dressage, and learn to move and ride as one with your horse!_"​




You probably won't believe me but YES! YES! YES! This is what I imagined that Western Dressage was offering me and THAT is exactly why it appealed to me immediately! I am an English Dressage rider who was immediately converted over to the idea of Western Dressage because I so much appreciate my Western riding roots and was hopeful that WD would be a move away from Modern Competitive Dressage and toward a more classical focus on lightness and balance. After all, those Western reining riders sure know their balance, rhythm, timing, etc! ​


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## Myya

bsms, I'm sorry if I've offended you in anything I've said. I rode Western in my youth, then English equitation, then Jumping, then took a 20 year break to have my family, then began riding again. I could have gone back to Western riding or Jumping, but didn't only because I felt I was too old to do reining and didn't want to just walk, trot, canter around a ring all day in Western Pleasure. Neither did I want to start jumping again and risk falling off at my age. So I decided to aim at English Dressage, but because I couldn't find an instructor (because I didn't own a trained dressage horse), I ended up in English equitation again (which I found just as dull to me as Western Pleasure). I finally found a good Dressage instructor and have been riding contentedly ever since, but when I heard about WD I was thrilled. Finally I could go back to Western without being stuck with Western Pleasure (and I apologize to everyone who loves Western Pleasure) or with risking my life in Reining. Meanwhile my wonderful Dressage instructor is thinking the same thing and is seriously considering switching to Western Dressage.


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## SEAmom

Just saw this today posted by someone I know who also competes in English Dressage as well. She really enjoys the WD classes she's done this year. She, too, was skeptical as a successful traditional Dressage competitor for many years.
WDAA Selected as USEF Recognized Affiliate for Western Dressage
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SouthernTrails

.

I have a friend who bought one of these saddles, she was laughed at by half the people at the WD event she went to.










She ended up selling it and bought a good close contact Western Saddle, she is doing well in WD and says more and more people are showing up and entering that class.


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## jaydee

I've competed in dressage from pony club level - I could never afford to have a horse that could go to the top and in the job I had they were aimed at being sold for someone else to do that
I find nothing offensive at all about Western Dressage or Cowboy dressage (which has split away to do its own thing)
The movement grew out of freestyle reining so there is a connection there and its being picked up by people who are fans of the Vaquero style of riding as they also see it as a showplace for their horses
I have a couple of horses here that could never be great at European dressage even though they know their stuff because they don't have the qualities of the warmblood that give them the edge but they have a chance to do well at WD and Cowboy dressage
If people want to do this - and its pretty evident that they do - then whats the harm?
*If people hate it and find it offensive then they can just pretend it doesn't exist - no ones going to force them into it.*
I think it would be a great thing for Arabians - they already have conventional dressage and western classes so why not a form of dressage for those who want to ride in western gear?
I think it can only do good for the breed - another step to getting them back to being a useful riding horse because its going to demand more than 'riding the rail' and who has the best outfit.


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## KigerQueen

I would be interested in western dressage. My mare HATES English tack, but an english saddle on her and get ready for the races, and possible cross country event -_-'. But in a western saddle she is wonderful. also found this vid and thought people would find it interesting






And this is a vid i have been looking for.


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## deserthorsewoman

Well......first video just shows that riders who ride well can do both. 
Second video is what so many have criticized here, dressage in western tack. Not what I would call western dressage.....tack was the only thing western. Sorry....


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## jaydee

Thanks for posting KigerQueen
The direction the second video shows WD to be going in is why Eitan and Jack Brainard split away from Western Dressage to focus on Cowboy Dressage
It was always their vision that it would be about Western Riding with a leaning towards the Vaquero style and with traditional American horses like the Quarter horse and the Morgan.
If WD at higher levels goes like this then the warmbloods are going to have the advantage just as they do in European dressage
If that's what western riders want however then I have no problem with it.


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## longride

I think it's worth noting that none of the WD organizations pull the video of Pam Grace out as an example of what WD is about. Many of the early videos, and this was one of the first, are never shown at symposiums and educational events aimed at judges and trainers. If european dressage videos are used at all, they are of a different presentation of dressage. There are now have some quite nice videos of stock horses and other breeds showing the carriage and light contact sought.


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