# Liberty Training



## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

This post gives the impression that you are really inspired horseluvr2524 . I think part of what you are experiencing is an increased development of body language as a two-way communication between you and your horse.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

^^^Yes, that is true! And not only that but finding my horse becoming a willing learner instead of a resentful one. If more people tried training this way, I wonder how many mares would still act "mareish". Mine used to be really mareish, and now she is slowly becoming more like a gelding. She is also becoming much more receptive to my signals, as well as I am to her body language.


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## Shui Long (Apr 12, 2014)

Yay!!! I was hoping you'd start this thread! ;-) 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I posted this on a different thread, but the same way of thinking applies here:

Originally Posted by *danicelia24*   
_too bad they can't tell us their reasons!

_
They do, just not in words. We have to learn how to speak their language.

Training horses reminds me of settlers meeting indians. Because the indians did not speak their language, some settlers regarded them as stupid, savage, lower beings. And many indians thought that the settlers were stupid themselves. So, do you fight to gain the upper hand and learn to speak to each other in a violent language, or does each one make an attempt to learn the others language?

So many times in training horses, we just consider them dumb animals that have to be forced into everything until they are taught to submit. So many times, we make no attempt to communicate with them in a way that they understand. We need to learn to speak their language, instead of making it a one sided thing of the horse having to learn what we are saying. To accomplish this, observe horse behaviors and adapt your training cues to simulate a behavior. You'll be surprised how quickly you connect with your horse.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Cynthia Royal illustrated this with an example of going to work in a factory where only Chinese was spoken. No one understood each other but the foreman was able to use hand and body language to explain how to do the work.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

So I just worked with chan this evening just before and during sunset when the sun wasn't so intense. She was a real PITA today. She was going to the back aisle of the arena (a little section, not really part of the arena and I need to fence it off), even after being free lunged. Usually after we are done playing she will stick to me and we can do some training. But no. What little training done today had to be done on a lead. Free lunging was a PITA because she was insisting on staying in the back aisle, and that's like lunging in a round pen which is the opposite of what I want to do. It's too small of a space so I am more restricted to walking in a circle and I can't play with her. I was getting frustrated so I got her to side pass for me and then ended it there.

Nobody ever said this was going to be easy.

This time, it wasn't that I went out with a bad attitude. I was looking forward to it and I was in a good mood, I even had classical spanish music playing on the laptop (maybe that's why she felt the need to be a bada**? :lol Next time I will spend time grooming, bonding, t-touch, and praying before we start our session. Jumping right into it hasn't seem to have gone well past few times I've done it. Grooming before hand seems to get us both thinking together, relaxed, and ready to train.

Ugh, I'm going to go eat my dinner now and feed later. Right now, I feel like crying in a corner.

Well, I'll just pray for a better tomorrow and start each day as a new day. I will not dwell on previous sessions, good or bad, but each day is a clean slate. Don't let the past hold you back!

Maybe chan was having a bad day. Maybe she just didn't feel like working. It takes training by choice to a whole 'nother level, because instead of not caring whether the horse wants to work or not, the feelings of the horse dictate the whole session. It really drives home the reality that it is a relationship, a partnership, not a sport that only depends on how you are feeling.

I think anyone who does this kind of training will be well prepared for marriage.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Did I get this right - she's leaving the larger area and going into a smaller one. If so, she doesn't want to be with you for whatever reason. When I worked my boy at liberty, both gates to the paddock were open when meant he could join his buddy in the pasture, At first he did that and I allowed it. Then one time he left, not far, and came back. I'd been asking him to cross a plastic tarp. When he returned he did it like a champ with my barely asking. You have to make it so your horse wants to be with you. And when it does, it's amazing what you will accomplish.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Usually she does, and I do allow her to run to the back aisle. But then she doesn't even stand next to her buddy's stall, but just a far corner. She just stands in the far corner and won't move until I make her move off. I have tried sitting down and waiting, both with back turned to her, and then looking at her but she doesn't move. Usually, she runs to the back, I let her and free lunge for a while, and then she settles down and is ready to work. Yesterday was just an exception. That's why I just ended the session. We have good days and bad days, and yesterday was a bad day. Hopefully today will be a good one.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I did another session this evening, and it was better than last night. I spent some time in prayer asking God to show me what to do, put on worship music, and headed out. Wow. Such a better session.

I actually took the halter off that I usually have on her. I slowed things down and spent time to allow her to just be. It was a huge break through when I sat on the ground and closed my eyes with my hands out, just waiting for her since she did not want to be near me. Within two minutes, she came over and stood in front of me. I got up really slowly and got her to follow me for a while, then of course she took off again. I tried getting her to follow me into the stall, but she really didn't want to so I just opened the door and she went in on her own.

Baby steps, but we are slowly moving forward. There was a lot else that happened, but I am just putting important points here. Other thing you may be wondering-yes we spent the whole time in the back aisle -_- whatevs. Eventually she will be wanting to spend more and more time with me and we won't be back there so much anymore.

I have to get new boots, or at least some gym shoes. My feet are starting to blister, and my old boots are really falling apart.


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## Frieda (May 17, 2014)

Instead of just waiting for her, maybe try doing something else. Horses have a lot of natural curiosity. Use that to your advantage and do something interesting and see if she will take the bait. Draw in the sand, dance (quietly), play with some of your training tools. Ignore her when she leaves and find something she may worry is more interesting than she is.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

^^That is what I was doing. Sitting, ignoring her, playing with my training tools. It was pretty cool, because she walked away from her buddy to come over to me.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

So, due to getting ready to leave for a week long vacation, I haven't had time to work with my horse. When I do have time, it's always in the middle of the day when it's too hot. I had been hoping to be able to work with her this evening, but it looks like that is not going to happen. Ugh! This sucks :sad:

Oh well, Chan will have a break and we'll both come back fresh. She'll be full of herself, so free lunging will certainly be interesting!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Adding another trainer to my study: Carolyn Resnick.

Hope you all have a wonderful week! I'm leaving for vacation tomorrow. No guitar, no piano, no horses? Not much of a vacation for me. BUT! There is a beach! We are only spending one night at the beach, so I am going to be sleep deprived as I want a moonlight walk AND an early morning walk! :wink:

Probably won't be on HF until end of next week. Bye everyone! :wave:


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

WHEW! Back from a vacation that was just TOO long! One of the things we did was drive through Kentucky, but no I didn't get to look at all the pretty horse farms because I was the one driving. :sad:

Anyways, got back end of last week. I worked with chan over the weekend and we were actually getting the beginnings of side passing and leg yielding at liberty! yay! Then I didn't train for a couple days, then I rode her last night. I just got on bareback with a rope halter and reins attached, grabbed a flag and we practiced riding that way. I was pleasantly surprised to find my horse has finally filled out her topline so I'm not dying when riding bareback! It used to be so painful, now it's just really fun and her back is so comfy now! :lol:

Then just now, I went out in the heat of the day (crazy right?) and we did a few minutes of liberty. I recently switched to using small flags instead of whips as training aids, as she was being aggressive with the whips (no, I have never beat her with them) and was more focused on them than on me. The flags she is very responsive to and actually focuses on me more.

So the latest issue is trying to get her to follow me on the right side. She'll do it on the left all day at any speed, but when I try to switch around to her right, she either freezes up or takes off. Obviously this is a result of not being trained to lead on the right, then you add in doing it at liberty and it's no bueno. I've got to figure this out because I can't really dance with her until she is following me of her own free will on both sides. I'd hate to go sticking a halter on her or ropes. I've put on hold our training to do the spanish march, side passes, and other things until we get this. There is something that I am not doing and I need to figure out what. I think I spend more time thinking and learning and studying liberty training than I do actually training. :wink:

Suggestions welcome!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Well! I am so glad I started this thread. I just went back over my previous posts and in a short time we have come far. We've already overcome many of the previous issues. So I think what I need to do is go back to the beginning and look for any holes in the training (which there are). One thing I have realized-I am much less patient than when I was a child. I have to stop trying to rush things. I am currently going over Carolyn Resnick Notes. We have ritual 3 down, as I can move her off food and other things. I'm going to repeat one and two, and if there are no problems there then I'll move to four. She really does seem to enjoy being with me, and if I walk up to the fence she will come say hello even if there is food around. So we'll see how much I need to backtrack.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

I know you want to do it at liberty but it might help to put her on the lead and see if she'll lead from the right side. She just might need a lesson on the lead to build her confidence with it. After a quick lesson take off the lead and try it at liberty. She has no idea what you want so use the lead as a training tool to show her and then move back to liberty. I know it's not what you want to hear but its my suggestion. Good luck 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

^^^yes this is what I am thinking about doing. First I am going over holes in liberty training, then see where we are. I skipped the leading from behind in Resnick method, so I'm going to do that. But yes, I think I'll have to put a halter on every once in a while to teach new things.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

You've come a long way with her. I'm enjoying following your progress.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

^^^It may be hard for some readers to understand the huge leap in progress we've had recently. Honestly, the thing that made the biggest difference was learning how to work with my own energy/moods. When I started to "up my energy" and go out in a happy, playful mood, that is when all of the change started happening. So bottom line, go out with the kind of mood you want your horse to have, because your mood does effect the horse and the training session.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Good point, horseluvr2524. In the book "Gallop to Freedom", Frederic Pignon stated that he had to constantly change his energy level when trying to direct several stallions working together in liberty.


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## countrylove (Oct 18, 2012)

I agree completely. Comet definitely feeds off my moods. We don't do much at liberty simply because she has no work ethic. She'll gladly follow me until I ask for something that involves her brain. she's still green. I hope to get her working at liberty but I'm finishing her before we move on to liberty work. You'll learn a lot in your liberty journey. Just remember to always put safety first. I've seen some crazy liberty performances. Stacy Westfall is one of my favorites. Clinton Anderson has an amazing liberty and trick stud who I saw live. Was the most beautiful thing to see. His handler is Shana or something similar and she's CA's top trainer. She had no horse experience prior to ÇA. She's one of their promotional stories.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I had been wondering how to get a horse to lie down at liberty. Well, here it is at the end of this article. Great article on liberty too.

What is the Point of Liberty? | Carolyn Resnick Horsemanship: Liberty Horse Training


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## Fargosgirl (Jan 12, 2012)

I hope you don't mind me dumping this in your thread, but I wanted to share the progress my horse and I have made at liberty. I was also inspired by the Pignons as well as Klaus Hempfling and others. We had been playing at liberty for about a year when this was filmed.

I am so glad you started this thread! I will be following your progress because it is so inspirational to see other people having success with their horse. 

I am also pleased to see so many people are taking an interest in liberty training, because I really don't think you can truly understand just how sensitive and willing to please horses are until you take all force out of your relationship!


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Fargosgirl said:


> I hope you don't mind me dumping this in your thread, but I wanted to share the progress my horse and I have made at liberty. I was also inspired by the Pignons as well as Klaus Hempfling and others. We had been playing at liberty for about a year when this was filmed.
> 
> I am so glad you started this thread! I will be following your progress because it is so inspirational to see other people having success with their horse.
> 
> ...


 Amen! Well done, and well said


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Horselovr, no halter. Learn to guide the horse with your pointing arm and your reed/dressage whip and your body. This is the real challenge. Your horse will let you know when you are doing it correctly by it's response. Be very careful when running with your horse. Watch it's ears. If you run ahead of the horse it can interpret the situation that it is chasing you and this is where the aggression can start. Too often I've seen people doing this and the horse's ears are pinned.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Fargosgirl said:


> I hope you don't mind me dumping this in your thread, but I wanted to share the progress my horse and I have made at liberty. I was also inspired by the Pignons as well as Klaus Hempfling and others. We had been playing at liberty for about a year when this was filmed.
> 
> I am so glad you started this thread! I will be following your progress because it is so inspirational to see other people having success with their horse.
> 
> ...


Wonderful! Love it =) I don't mind at all. You two are such an inspiration. That song is from Spirit right? Loved that movie as a kid. Anyway I loved watching you two. It's really cool how everyone has their own way of doing liberty. Mine is incorporating flags into the deal. Most horses wouldn't take well to using flags as cues, but my mare is an oddball :lol:


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Saddlebag said:


> Horselovr, no halter. Learn to guide the horse with your pointing arm and your reed/dressage whip and your body. This is the real challenge. Your horse will let you know when you are doing it correctly by it's response. Be very careful when running with your horse. Watch it's ears. If you run ahead of the horse it can interpret the situation that it is chasing you and this is where the aggression can start. Too often I've seen people doing this and the horse's ears are pinned.


I'm actually using small flag/s instead of whips now. I don't run ahead of her (I'm not fast enough! lol), she would actually start chasing the whips on her own. That's why I decided to take whips out of the equation. Glad to hear your take on no halter because I don't want to use one. I am very careful when running with her, especially since she can get mareish and start kicking, bucking, etc. I stay out of the way especially when sending her off.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Was cleaning stalls this evening and had a bit of free time. I thought my moms horse looked a little off so I took her out of the stall and started free lunging. She was fine but by then we were into it lol. Big difference between the two horses. Belle is much less expressive than Chan, and much less dominant. She doesn't kick out when you send her off as Chan occasionally does. However, Belle does not readily follow the way Chan does. She is much less interested in being around people. She does seem to enjoy being around my mom though and I think that is because she knows that she is my moms horse, or my mom is her person. Whatever way you want to look at it :wink:


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

so I broke one of the basic rules of liberty training this morning: I went out when I didn't want to go out. Needless to say, the session didn't go well. It was mediocre. I think Chan was trying to connect with me but I just wasn't receptive. I was asking with the correct body signals but not the right energy, so it didn't work out. I spent most of the time driving from behind which in a way the time wasn't wasted as that is important too. I woke up late so I didn't get out there until 9am and it was already so hot. I hate living in the desert.

Leading from right side is still a huge problem. I got her following me and she fell a little behind so I was actually able to switch over to the other side, and then she just stops and gives me a blank stare. I even copied my hand and body signals I use when asking her to walk with me on the left, to no avail. Argh! This is so frustrating. I didn't help anything by going out when I didn't want to be out, but I felt guilty not working with her.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

You've switched from her thinking side to her reactive side. You are dealing with what can seem like two different horses. If you were to focus all your energies to training her right side, sometimes the left side goes on vacation. And yes, there are times you will think you are getting nowhere and suddenly the horse surprises you with what he knows and can do. The reason for not using a halter is because even without the lead there is a mental connection but not how you want it.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Yes, well I think I just need to give it time. And not go out when I'm sick (I ended up developing a fever later in the day) :sad: oh well, next time will be better. The plus is that she's right outside my door and not at a boarding barn =)


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I just had to share this. It's too bad this video has terrible quality. This pair is so good! The horse has a lot of fire and life to him. Towards the end of the video she does liberty with him. In the last minute, the horse decides he wants to play and starts running around, but not exactly running. It was more like he was dancing! This horse really seems to connect not only with his handler but the music as well. Very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2w0Iyx4z_o


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

So I forgot to document a couple evenings ago when I went out and worked with Chan. I prayed about it and realized that I had been focusing and over complicating things AGAIN when we are not ready to be focusing on specific things. So I went out, and I just danced with her, literally. I am a dancer myself, so it wasn't a big deal for me. I just put on music and got out there and danced. Oh what a change. Two things I noticed: Chan still has a lot of "anger" issues, or "dominance" issues we need to work through. I think it's a little of both. She's also slightly buddy sour, but that's expected when there are only two horses on the property. I might take belle out of the stalls and tie her farther away so that way there really are no distractions. having my arena/turnout right next to the stalls isn't always a good thing.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

I don't mean to butt in, but some one who has really helped me get further in liberty training is Tommy Turvey. I was lucky enough to see him at a local horse expo and learn about how he trains his horses for show business (like the Clydesdale from the commercial that made us all cry). He does really crazy liberty stuff and tricks (check out his youtube). I really took away from him the importance of voice commands. All of his horses know their names and are very responsive to voice commands. And don't get too downhearted if your horse takes off, his do that too sometimes. As long as you are always happy when they come back. Not sure if any of this is new to you, but I'd still recommend looking at his liberty stuff and some of his shows because they are just awesome.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

butt in all you want! lol I love getting input from other people. Doesn't mean I always follow what they have to say, but I love seeing that other people are reading this and encouraging me. I'll check out his stuff, but it seems the situation has turned for the better.

So my last session seemed to have worked through a lot Chan's anger issues. I guess it was worth almost getting kicked several times XD for a couple of nights, the only thing I did was the following: After feeding and letting Chan eat for a minute, I would go in there and chase her off her dinner and food (no whips or training aids) and away from her buddy. A couple of times she tried walking back and starting eating again of her own accord, but I chased her off again and continued standing over the food next to her friend. Then next time she came back, I held up my hand when she got close and she STOPPED. I praised her and invited her with a hand signal to go eat. The next time I did this, I didn't even have to use a hand signal she waited for me to give her the OK.

So that little exercise seemed to have helped a lot. Today once again I spent time in prayer before going out, and put on my christian dance music (yes, there is upbeat christian dance music! crazy right?). Just wow. She actually wanted to be around me, was respectful, did what I asked, trotted with me, and we had the beginnings of dancing! awesome! then for a short bit we worked on Spanish walk, and by that time it was hot (this was in the morning) so I walked with her for a bit and then we called it quits. But it was amazing. She only bucked towards me once or twice, hardly ever laid back her ears, seemed happy, curious, and inquisitive while working with me. We had fun free lunging too and she listened to my directions the whole way. Just awesome!!!

So yeah, thanks for the encouragement guys. You all said it would get better, I knew it would, and it did. I'm learning so much, and my horse is no longer the "****y angry mare". Liberty is amazing stuff. Yay for freedom!! =D


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

Glad to hear about your progress! I do have a recommendation. It's from what I know from doing work with my horse. In your situation I would say it might be wise to wait on the Spanish Walk until you get the angry/kicking completely out. Otherwise you are encouraging some of the same behaviors you are trying to prevent (although in different context, but Spanish Walk and a strike aren't TOO far from each other).

On a side note: I know there is upbeat Christian dance music


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm not pushing much with the Spanish walk. not too worried about it, but I think it would reinforce a digging problem more than a kicking problem. She doesn't strike with her front feet, but kicks and bucks with the back. But she only bucked like one time today. Didn't kick at me at all, just bucked which is kind of the same thing, but if it makes any sense it was less aggressive and in a way more playful, although there was still some aggression there.


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

Sounds like progress. And glad to hear she is getting better. My horse likes to strike (only when I haven't worked with him in a long time and am trying to move his shoulder his "sticky" direction when doing groundwork). So I think I'll be safe and not do the Spanish Walk.

Does she disengage her hindquarters really well for you? That would be really helpful since she likes to use her back end. Also, not sure what techniques you use, but pushing the hind and pulling the eye is essential in how I've learned/done liberty.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Whew! HOT today. Well, it's always hot, but we got a huge thunderstorm last night, so it was humid and hot. Its going to hit the hundreds, plus humidity. Real fun.

Anyway, today had a good session. Not as good as last time, but I don't go out with expectations. I let every day be a new day, and what happened in the past, whether good or bad, holds little value in the current session. Every dance is a new one!

She did good. She did buck at me several times, but if you can imagine this, her ears were pricked forward when she did them! And they were not extremely close to me so I feel that she was just playing. She had lots of energy from the rain. We had fun playing. She didn't want to train today so we didn't do much of that, mostly play. That's OK, I'll take what she gives me. Then I threw the rope halter on her and we did a bit of riding. It wasn't great, but we are getting there. I have learned the key is to: one, not have expectations; and two, not get frustrated.

God Bless all! =)


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

OK! FINALLY after days of rain there is an evening where I am not busy with other things and it wasn't raining. So I got out there tonight (after a worrying look in the mirror realizing I may have gained a pound or two lol) and worked with her. This time I brought carrots with me because I decided it was time to begin working on two tricks: bow and spanish walk. Well, first thing that came up was she decided her go pedal wasn't going to work today. So I brought in my carriage whip along with the flag just for that extra snap. She was mad about that at first but then willingly went along, danced with me, so I put the whip away, and yes she continued to do so even after it was gone. It was amazing because of two things: she is not trying to boss or "herd" me anymore, and she tends to stay and run WITH me rather than run away.

So as far as the spanish walk, we got the beginnings of picking up the foot. She liked the pick-up-foot=carrot idea, but she was associating it more with pawing than simply lifting the foot. Then with bowing, well that's just a whole different animal. I can get her with a hand motion to bring her head down and weight backwards, but she lets her knee fall out of place and just backs up a step.

Any tips or methods on how you teach these tricks are welcome!

Overall, not a bad session. Remember never to compare to previous sessions, but always to the here and now. With liberty and horses, its about the present, not the past or future. God Bless! :mrgreen:


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

When you run with her, keep an eye on her ears. Horses can get the idea they are chasing the runner and some have gotten rather nasty. There's a vid on youtube with a girl running and she's ignoring the pinned ears. At one point he runs past her and it appears he kicks her in the head. No word on what really happened.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I saw it, and there was a liberty trainer who explained the whole thing, I forget his name, one of the well known ones. Anyways, there were a couple of things from what I remember: it seemed to be a high stress area, and the girl was continually getting between the horse and the fence, driving him from the outside rather than the inside. My mare has had a bucking and kicking problem, so I'm always very aware of what she is doing and stay out of kicking range. I also stay to the inside of the arena, not the outside. She has flicked her ears back before, she hardly ever pins them. She's tried pinning her ears and herding me with her teeth before, and all that got her was a smack in the face for getting into my space. Today, it was mostly horse play, throwing her head and arching her neck and trotting with me. I don't think that she thinks she's chasing me because she yields to me when I go into her to turn her the other way.

Anyway, the way I run with her I'm more at risk of getting bit than kicked, because anytime I drive from behind I'm always very careful to keep my distance. That's part of why I pulled the whip out today, because she was being moody and I wanted to get more distance between us than the flag offers. I'm pretty good at reading this horse and anticipating how she is going to react to things, as I've had her for several years now.

Anyways, thanks again for the warning Saddlebag. Yes, I am ALWAYS careful. Safety is my priority.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

OK, I just watched the video again.

The horse is not mean, he was horse playing. They DO that, if you are going to do liberty it is a risk. Well, it's a risk being around horses period, IMO. She WAS on the outside of the arena. I NEVER put myself between another object and a horse, even if it's just a piece of string fence. It looked to me like she was driving the horse over the jumps, because she was taking over the outer area and not leaving him that option to go over there. I also would never work my horse in an area with so much junk in it, it is a hazard. Also, rather than leading the horse, she was doing this weird side step running thing, there were very few moments where she was actually leading.

For me, I stay to the inside of the arena. My horse has a choice to stay with me or leave, I give her that out always. When driving forward, I am out of kicking range. I do my best to be very careful and stay safe, but my main point was that this girl did not appear to be leading the horse at any point during the video IMO. She was running WITH him, but not leading. There is a difference.

Almost forgot to add-know your horse, read your horse. She was not paying attention, not even looking at her horse when it happened. I can usually tell when my horse is about to kick or buck, and yes, I get myself out of range. My biggest thing with this girl is that she was driving him over the jumps, from the outside of the arena. She didn't leave herself any room to get away from the horse.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f01_1334997411


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

I use a mix of Tommy Turvey's method of teaching the bow and a dressage trainer (not well known) that did something very similar. Both of them start by using a single leg hobble.

Step 1: get them used to walking with the single foot hobble (on the front left foot) and lead rope. They shouldn't get scared if they step on it.

Step 2: Teach them to pick up their foot AND HOLD IT when it is tapped with a crop.

Step 3: Take the lead rope from the left front and UNDER the belly and across the back, so the slack is on the left side. This is where it varies. The dressage trainer only taught the bow, so his next step is to have a bridle on and pull back as to back up. Whenever your horse leans back a little you release. Each time ask for more until she does a full bow. Then have her hold it for a second. Tommy Turvey would teach the lay down first, because the bow is just one step before laying down. So with a full cheek snaffle, you will do a similar process where you pull back so they bow, but then you pull the head to the right which throws their balance off and they will lay down. Don't think this is forcing them. There is no way you can out-do your horse in this since you are doing it all by hand. So your horse has to have really solid ground manners and give really well to pressure. 

When I practiced this more my horse would lay down if I picked up his foot by hand and just pulled on his withers. I didn't put enough effort into it to get him to lay down like Tommy Turvey does. He taps one leg to get a bow and then taps the other to get the lay down.

My horse LOVED to lay down, it was the one time when I worked with him that I would let him eat grass. I didn't really get a choice since when he is laying down he has the grass growing up into his mouth. 

If any of that didn't make sense let me know!


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## mlkarel2010 (Jan 27, 2008)

I didn't know if the picture would work, but that was proof that the whole process is really peaceful and not as bad as I realized the description sounds.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I'll have to look at some more videos of it. For now, I'm not too concerned about the tricks.

Last night was a wonderful session! Chan was just FULL of it, which is great for liberty lol. She was bucking and playing, even reared a few times. We had fun running together, working on turns and such things. I think it's about time to start working with her on free lunging around me.

I did have to pull the carriage whip out, because her go pedal was pretty much nonexistent while we were starting. That probably is my fault, but I needed to get her going. I don't even have to touch her with it, as this particular whip has a really sharp sound. At first, she did the usual when whips are involved, pin ears kick buck etc. But then she got her butt moving and we did and then we could really play. I was even able to continue using the whip to give signals without her charging it, so I'd say that's progress!

I did give her a nice grooming session beforehand, and I noticed how relaxed she was. Calm, not pinning her ears at me (she used to do that occasionally when I groomed her), and overall just a more pleasant horse to be around. Almost like a different horse, really. And liberty training is just highlighting and encouraging her good qualities, like her love of people. This horse is very friendly and becomes sweeter every time I work with her. It's like a 180 in behavior. She's also much more well behaved.

Praise God! So happy that I'm seeing such progress, and after only a month of INconsistent training! Liberty training really DOES work :shock: :lol:


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

whoot! :happydance:

can I just say that my horse is REALLY REALLY smart? I cut up some apples and figured we would do a short spanish walk training session in the stall under the shade. A half hour out there, and with the help of some apples she had the striking part down, even lifted her leg REALLY high like they are supposed to. Better on the left than the right, of course :wink:

Anyway, I think another session or two and she'll be doing the spanish walk! So exciting, it's one of my favorite tricks/dressage movements. And Chan has a bit of spanish blood in her, and is of the more leggy athletic type, so she looks really good doing the spanish walk.

Another thing I noticed: she used to be really grabby and mouthy with treats, now she is very polite, even after a half hour of training with treats.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I'm feeling refreshed after a short nap and some lovely classical spanish guitar music (my favorite :lol so I decided to update.

Did a couple more spanish walk lessons that were more two steps backward than one step forward (almost literally....) I know what I was doing wrong now so I'll have to go back and fix the mistakes that I made. Still haven't decided on what method to teach her to bow and thinking I might hold off on that for a while.

I had previously taught her to do this kind of bow, but I showed it to a horse chiropractor and he told me that it will put her back out of alignment, so I don't do this anymore:










She can also do a simple bow, which is really a piece of cake. Extend the leg and drape head over 










I don't think it's mean to use ropes to teach bow or lay down, you could certainly use ropes and be gentle or harsh. I'm just mostly worried about screwing up 

Anyway, we did a short liberty session yesterday, and then we rode a little bit. She was full of it because she hadn't been turned out in little more than 24 hours, so she wanted to buck, rear, and play. For that session, I used the carriage whip and a medium sized flag. Flag helped to put her back in perspective if she thought about charging the whip, and the whip helped to put some distance between us so she can perform her antics at a safe distance. Whenever she is feeling particularly frisky, I don't want her right at my shoulder as we usually are. I let her get it out and play with her (at a distance), and then we settle into work.

Amazing thing-she knows when the lead is on that its enough play and funny business and to behave herself. In fact, she is _better _behaved on lead and tied since we started liberty. So we had some saddle time. For the first five minutes I was gentle in asking, using a flag as a training aid. She did not want to trot, or move out at all away from her buddy. Just because I have started liberty training and have changed my training values, does not mean I do not believe in ever correcting a horse, and she knows when I'm asking for a trot. So I pulled out the dressage whip and we had a CTJM. First I asked for the trot, lightly, ignored, asked again (squeezing with calves), ignored, so then THWACK. I got her good on the rump. She did the usual response to being thwacked-she bucked, then got her butt moving. I did have to do that a couple more times, but after that if she was thinking about acting up, just a wiggle of the whip or a light tap and she got back to where she was supposed to be.

Worked a little bit on collection, but mostly I'm trying to retrain her to lighter aids. So I'm doing my best not to use the reins much, I want her to become more sensitive to seat and leg aids. For the most part I don't need much rein to get a stop, just a light touch and either throw my feet out (western slide stop) or slightly push my weight backwards and stop the periodic leg pressure I use to let her know to keep going. She's not completely unsensitive, but not as sensitive as I would like her to be. My goal is to transition from the english hackamore to a rope halter or side pull, and eventually bridleless.

She's doing well overall. She went everywhere I asked her to, even leaving her buddy to walk to the other side of the property in the dark (ridden, not lead). So I don't think she's really buddy sour, just sometimes a little obstinate. :wink:

Well, see you all on the next update. Until then, God Bless you and be safe!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I have been feeling horrible lately health wise. I've been having fatigue and chronic recurring pain, among other things. So I went to urgent care the other night and they took blood to send out for tests. Couldn't find anything wrong with me in the physical exam.

I did feel well enough to spend an hour with Chan last night. We did a bit of liberty, then I put the halter and lead on her and spent a few minutes working on spanish walk. In order to help undo my past mistakes on it, I have switched the voice command from "step" to "marche" which is french for walk. I did some more reading on teaching spanish walk, and the trick of it is NOT to reward for pawing, but only for the single step forward. I took an old stirrup leather and held it around her pastern. Then I asked her to pick up the leg and said "marche", as soon as she picked it up I pulled on the stirrup leather and stretched her leg forward. The first few times she fought it, trying to pull her leg back or start the pawing routine. I talked to her calmly and quietly, and as soon as she stopped resisting and allowed me to stretch the leg forward, I let go and praised her. We did this a few more times, and then I asked her to "marche" without assisting on the stirrup leather. Many times she wanted to start pawing instead of taking that single lifted step forward. To stop this, I gave a light smack with the dressage whip on her chest accompanied by a sharp "ch" sound. After this to correct I only had to hold the whip in front of her chest and "ch" and she would stop. Once she stopped pawing, I would ask again. The first few times it was only a single, non-exaggerated step forward. I praised her like crazy for it.

Then we went back to the stirrup leather, asking her to marche and stretching her leg to get that exaggerated step. We went through the process of leather on, leather off several times. By the end of the session, she was taking a single, exaggerated step, and not pawing or striking. This time we only worked on the left leg. Next time I'll do a refresher with the left then work on the right. Once she has a good step on both sides, we'll move to working on the rail. Start off asking only on one leg to marche and start transitioning to the actual walking part. So walk, but only marche with one leg. Same thing on other side. Soon enough, she'll have a spanish walk! =D

God Bless and be safe everyone!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

OK, it's been a while everyone. My health problems I believe were due to a food allergy. As hard as it's been, eliminating grains and dairy from my diet has helped me get to feeling better drastically. It's hard not to have toast or cereal in the morning, or my favorite yogurt, or look at a menu and realize I can't have most of what's on it, but my receding acne, lack of health problems and good energy level has made it SO worth it.

Last week, I did some liberty work with Chan. From what I remember of it, it was a decent session, not extraordinarily great or terrible. A few days after that I put the driving harness on her for the first time in months. I thought she was going to have a fit over the blinders, but she remembered everything and took to it well, responding to voice commands. I'm going to rig up a couple of tires so we can drag the arena.

Then Sunday night was both horses' first time off the property in months. They did really well. We kept it to just a short trail ride (not pushing anything). Then coming back I had to get off and shut the gate. I told my mom to go ahead and walk back to the stalls without me as the horses are buddy sour and they need some training in that area. Chan was totally fine with being walked away from, until I mounted her again. Once I'm off the ground it's like I'm not even there anymore. She started trying to gallop back to her friend, of course. I held her back, trying to keep myself relaxed in the saddle, and talked her down. After side passing and trying some different antics, she started crow hopping and a half rear, which I sat through. I was tempted to get off and lead her knowing she would calm down if I did, but I didn't want to give in. So I sat through it, continuing to talk her down. She realized I wasn't going anywhere and proceeded forward at a very prancy walk. BTW mom's horse did well riding back by herself. I get nervous doing training exercises with my mother as I would still call her a beginner and she hasn't quite developed that "horse sense".

For whatever reason, the very successful ground work we have been doing is not translating to the saddle. Perhaps it is because I have a subconscious lack of confidence in the saddle that I don't have on the ground. I certainly feel confident, calm, and together in the saddle, but sometimes (as liberty has taught me) what we think we know and do and what we actually do are two different things. I know for sure Chan would _follow_ me to the ends of the earth. I'm not so sure she would let me _ride_ her to the ends of the earth.

I think I just need some more time in the saddle to puzzle this out. It took a lot of hours of liberty to actually get on track to doing something similar to liberty. Another thing-I have to stop being lazy. Chan is not one of those "put me in the pasture for a month and hop on when you feel like it" horses. She is a lot more demanding, being a smart, inquisitive, and dominant mare. So more hours are required!!


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Riding is quite different from ground training. When you are on the ground, you communicate with the horse through visual cues. When on horseback, you communicate primarily with balance and pressure. One commonality can be verbal cues.

Just as you experimented to find the best visual cues to communicate with your horse on the ground, you must experiment to find the best ways to communicate in the saddle. Your horse must also learn to trust you in a totally different way. I put great emphasis on how a rider sits in the saddle. Good posture -- whether seen or felt -- projects confidence. Confidence enhances the image of authority.

It is also important to understand that how we sit and how we move when on a horse can either make it easier or harder for the horse to do what we desire. I often see riders fighting against themselves. They ask a horse to do something, but their lack of proper balance or lack of following the horse's movements makes it hard for the horse to do what they ask. These riders respond to the apparent reluctance of their horse by using greater effort. The greater effort, however, also creates greater resistance. It often helps to stop, take a deep breath, and reflect on the situation. 

The best solution is for the rider to relax and try to get his horse to relax. In a relaxed atmosphere, communication becomes easier. We may, then, begin to quietly "discuss" the situation with our horse. We gently make a request and see how the horse responds. If the horse responds correctly, we praise him to let him know he understood correctly. If the horse does not respond correctly, it is usually best not to make the same request in the same way only "louder". A better method would be to try to explain our desire in a slightly different way which the horse may better understand. Once you get the horse to understand, you can always work toward connecting what he understands to what he did not understand if that is what you ultimately desire.

I have not given specific directions, because I do not know what you specifically require help achieving. However, I hope these general thoughts will help you develop your own way of communicating with your specific horse.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Thanks TXhorseman! Great advice.

The main problem with her is she will get very lazy. There is only so many ways one can ask for a trot. Most all other trainers and people I have worked with before turn to whips and spurs, but I now believe there has got to be a better way.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Yay for discovering new amazing liberty trainers! Another trainer added to my study: Jenny Rolfe. Reading her articles have helped me find the missing link between liberty and energy and riding. What's the link? Breathing and visualization.

I found my horse much more receptive when I myself took deep breaths, and finding different breathing patterns made her respond in different ways. Visualization is also key to making things happen, but there is a fine balance between visualization and expectation. You have to visualize what you are asking in the moment, but not have expectations of what you will accomplish that day. When working with horses, especially at liberty, past or future doesn't matter, only living in the moment. Then you are connecting with the horse's way of life.

When I asked for my horse to backup (no vocal cues!) in a different position and signal than usual, she at first was not getting it. I continued with a slow deep breathing pattern, and though she was not backing with me I visualized and focused completely on an image of her backing with me. When I had backed to about her hindquarters area she started backing up with me. I was ecstatic "that was amazing!" and praised her. Afterwards I realized that I had not even used a voice cue, as I was too focused on breathing. I then practiced the same thing but instead of asking for her to back, I asked her to follow from the right side, which she has had problems with. I gave the signal, breathed, visualized, continued walking though there was not an immediate response. After a few steps, she followed! This was a huge break through in training. I feel like I have a much better understanding of how to work at liberty, and with horses in general. I can't wait to try this under saddle, but first we have to master free lunging. I haven't quite been able to get her to circle around me lunging at liberty, as you see most liberty trainers do, but we are getting there and I feel like I have an understanding of how to get her to do this now.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Wow, I read through my last few posts and realized I haven't even posted about how I have been bringing Belle into the liberty sessions with Chan (Belle is my mother's mare). In short, I have discovered that the more horses you have, the easier it is to bring more energy and movement in, but it is harder to get them to do what you want. However, once I have one horse doing what I want the other tends to follow. But Belle does not quite understand the concept of leading at liberty. Tonight though I feel like we had a break through because though we did not work at liberty I went out just to spend a few minutes with them. Belle does not like having her head held, but I discovered she loves long strokes down her face and then she allowed me to hold her head in my hands. Then she actually started following me as I was exiting the turnout. Following without food! wow! 

A couple of nights ago I climbed on bareback (bareback so its easier for both of us to feel what the other is doing) on Chan and practiced breathing and visualization. I discovered, when taking a breath inward my body will tense, so when asking for a stop I took a big inward breath, sat back just a bit, and squeezed with my upper thigh effectively stopping my movement forward with the horse. Chan then stopped and there was only a feather light touch of the reins. As soon as we stop, I let out a deep sigh and let my whole body relax. When asking for a walk, I would again tense but lean just slightly forward, squeezing with my calves. It worked every time.

Getting her to move out into a trot was a lot harder and I found myself getting frustrated. Especially since as soon as I got her into a trot she would stop after a few strides. I had to examine why this was happening. I found that much of my problem was that I was relaxing too much once moving into the trot-meaning that my energy was not elevated. Once my energy moved back into a relaxed state such as at the walk or stop, Cheyenne would immediately slow or stop. Another problem was making the actual transition to trot. I remembered a while back, how when I would ask for the trot nothing would happen, but she would trot when I asked for canter from the walk. I looked at the difference in energy levels. When I asked for canter, my energy is elevated and my cues more insistent in anticipation of the fast pace. So finally I tried elevating my energy and becoming insistent about the trot. It worked! She did trot a few paces, then we quit there.

One other thing I learned from my session was the fine balance between relaxed and moving with the horse and too relaxed, as I explained above. In order to keep the energy and motion in my horse, I had to elevate my energy, but also keep my body relaxed and moving with the horse. Mind boggling? Yes. I'm explaining as best I can here. But I have read about such things before, like the dressage rider needing to elevate their energy in order to keep the horse performing such difficult movements, but they must also keep their body in movement with the horse which requires full relaxation and absorption of shock from movement.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Well, long time no post! It was a long time between sessions too. I got sick with a horrid virus last week, so I wasn't able to do anything with the horses besides feed and water. I've finally bounced back and was able to go out and do some work with her.

We started off with around a 40 minute liberty session. She had a whatever attitude at the start, although she was willing and did a few things I asked. I learned that if I stand facing her on the side and hold the dressage whip in front of her chest and tap along her side with the buggy whip, she sidepasses. Something I didn't realize before, but it makes sense because this is a similar position to when I would ask her on lead doing basic groundwork. When I went to send her off to do a bit faster paced work, she was a pain. So we had it out, well she did, with the whip. She doesn't like the snap of it so will go after it at times. But I have noticed that my now "having it out" with her is very different from the way we used to "have it out". I have become more of an emotionally steady, solid leader. I don't put up with rude behavior, but I also don't get mad or frustrated. I take deep breaths, keep calm, stand my ground, and send her off. In fact, it's really hard to explain what I do now. It just sort of happened.

Our liberty sessions are far from the status of Frederic Pignon, but each time I go out I come away with a better understanding of myself and my horse. I also have to remember that it took many many years for Pignon to get to where he is today in his understanding of horses, and had it not been for Templado, it is dubious whether he would know as much as he does now. Templado was his great teacher, as Chan is mine. Chan has taught me a lot, and her nonacceptance of other forms of training has lead me to where we are today.

As an example of how this has worked for us, let me tell you about the riding session we had directly after liberty. (It was about 80 minutes training time today I think, much longer than usual). Starting off, Chan was rather unresponsive. There were a few times I started to get frustrated, but the breathing I spoke about before helped a lot and for some reason I was just able to stay calm. A few taps of the dressage whip and reining her western instead of english (just until my hands learn to become independent of the rest of my body) solved the forward problem, or at least was a step forward in solving it. I had set up a barrier to that annoying back corner with poles set on tires. We were taking a canter and heading towards that corner. I started giving her signals to turn, which she was not responding but I figured she would. Within the last few strides, I became aware of the pricked ears and the energetic joyous stride. Uh oh. At the last second I prepared myself for the jump, almost coming off in the process. If I haven't mentioned before, this horse is an extremely talented and athletic jumper. However, a few months ago (before liberty) she would often refuse jumps and it was just a struggle to ride her. Now, the little 14.3 hand mare is popping happily and voluntarily over 3' jumps.

We finished off with a short ride around the property. I learned something doing this as well. Clucking in a slightly different (weirder way imo) to my horse caused her to pick up a trot more willingly than with my normal click. OK, don't know where that came from, but amazing the things you learn when you listen to your horse.

Anyway, to finish this extremely long post, I feel closer than ever with my horse. I feel like I could do anything with her. Put the driving harness on and drag a tire when we haven't done that in months? Yep. Jump without fear of balk? Yep. Trailer out for the first time since April? Yep. Liberty has changed me, and my horse, into a completely different pair than what we were before, and made us better as individuals.

Speaking of which, my neighbor called me up Sunday saying that her daughter would like to use one of the horses in a photoshoot (she's a model wanting to update her portfolio). I said sure, though I was still sick and hanging out in pjs, but these are great neighbors who have helped us out a lot. It had rained recently so of course both horses were dirty from rolling. I took Chan out because she was the cleaner of the two. In hindsight, I should have taken steady Belle. I still have to laugh when I think of what happened.

Usually Chan is very well behaved, not known to be a biter or kicker (anymore). But she really did NOT take to this model. I was holding the lead and standing on one side, she on the other though I had originally asked her to stand on the same side as me. She had her hands on Chan's neck, and Chan had her ears back. I could see that look in her eye and I just knew. I was petting her and talking to her and keeping a good hold on that lead in case she tried anything. I could positively hear her grinding her teeth giving this girl the eye. At the time I was worried but now I just have to laugh. To Chan's credit, despite her obvious dislike with the girl she did not try anything other than walk away when the girl held the lead for a couple shots. Of course no one else noticed anything wrong, but granted they are not horse people. Chan just loved the girls mom though, probably because they had fed and cared for the horses while we were gone on vacation in June. Maybe she didn't like the daughter because of the smell of hair spray and other chemicals, which I never use, ever. (I have super super sensitive skin, I even make my own shampoo. Chemicals cause my skin to be irritated and break out in acne.)

The one thing I can always count on with this horse is a good laugh. She is very entertaining. :lol:


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Last night I cleaned tack, and in honor of completing such a tedious job (although a dressage saddle is much easier to clean than western!) I chose to ride the following morning, which was this morning. Chan was a great sport considering I rode and then fed them their breakfast. Maybe it was because I shared the apple I brought out? :wink:

Today was another eye opener. I have been very careful of my reins, as I realized that part of the reason why I don't have a forward horse is because I have been holding her back. I would say that now after a few loose rein sessions I am much more aware of what my hands are doing. We did a good amount of trotting, mostly concentrating on keeping rhythm, and by the end of the session she really was doing well. That special clucking sound I discovered really helps. You have to cluck in a very specific way, and it sounds odd but for whatever reason she really responds to it. About midway through the ride I trusted myself to have a bit more pressure with my hands. I wanted to focus on natural collection, and I very gently asked her to lower her head, releasing pressure when she did. At the same time I asked her to be more forward, cluck included. There were a few strides where I positively felt her lifting her hind in collection, which is a first for me. I also felt her become much lighter on legs and seat. It's true the lighter you are with your aids, the more sensitive the horse is. 

We finished the session with a low jump, which she adored, and then a short walk around the property. We both had a blast and I feel it was our most productive ride in forever. The way I'm riding now is so different from before, but it's so hard to explain exactly what is different. One thing I always try to do is keep my Christian music on, which helps me relax. In doing so I think I'm not quite so intensely focused, I don't tense or stress, and I connect really well with my horse. The music kind of frees my emotions and I think Chan feels that. It puts me in a better state of mind, which in turn puts her in a better state of mind. 

One other thing, I switched her from only bermuda to having a little bit of alfalfa in addition to bermuda every day. This gave her the extra energy she needed but didn't put her over the top. It was much easier to keep her moving forward with energy since she has been on alfalfa.

I've got a busy couple of days ahead of me between house and yard chores and school, but I'll find time to ride on Thursday or Friday. And for the first time in a long time, I can say that I am really excited for my next ride!


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