# Jynx has taken to temper tantrums...



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Did you have the vet out? What did they say?
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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Yes. In his opinion, it's completely psychological. He did a lameness exam, had her trot out and lunge, as well as palpated her back and checked her legs. Based on everything he observed in the duration of his visit, he cannot find any explanation for her violent outbursts. He said for her to be protesting so strongly at the trot, there would be SOMETHING visible in hand, lunged, palpated, at the walk, etc. and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever - she's completely relaxed and sound in every single instance except being asked to trot/canter with a rider only.

I'm not against seeking a massage therapist/chiropractor, but based on the temper tantrums she's starting to pitch anytime she's in a situation SHE doesn't want to be in, I really see no evidence of physical issues. She spent the first 2 years of her life learning that anytime she intimidated a human, she would get her way - I thought we'd gotten over it, but I was very clearly wrong.


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## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

I would have her hormone levels checked as well. I've seen another horse act like this, she had a testosterone producing tumor on her ovary.
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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This not a Vet or health issue. It is simply a terribly her-bound horse that needs to be taught how to handle separation. Some horse have a more difficult time handling separation than other and this one is a 9 or 10 on a scale of 1-10. They can be dangerous and they can hurt people and hurt themselves if they are not taught to be sane and 'give it up'.

The ONLY cure I know is to tie them out under a tree limb until they quit. I have had it take at long as 3 full days. I take them out in the morning after they have been fed and nave drank water and I put them up at night when I do chores. I offer water at noon but most won't drink and they are just fine. I have done this for more than 30 years of my 50 years of training and have not had one injure itself and have not had one get better.

The main thing is to tie them safely. Use a flat web halter, a big, strong nylon rope with a big swivel snap in it so the rope will not twist up. DO NOT TIE ONE LIKE THIS WITHOUT A BIG SWIVEL SNAP IN THE LEAD. The snap should be about wither height. 

Tie them to a big over-hanging tree limb that is high over head if you have one available. If not, tie one to a safe, strong smooth place where a horse cannot hurt themselves. I prefer the tree limb because a horse cannot paw at anything and repeatedly hit their front legs and feet on anything.

Expect a meltdown. Don't babysit the horse. The whole idea is to let them 'get over it' by themselves and find out there is life and return AFTER THEY SETTLE DOWN. I had one take 3 full days. I would not bet the this one does not.

You cannot train or even ride a horse that has this type if separation anxiety. We tie every horse out before we even try to train it. I do not waste my time on one that has not settled down. It is like spitting in the wind. You just cannot do it.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

Another method to fix a herd bound horse is to work them where they want to be and let them rest away from there. Start with working her close to the other horses. Then take her a little ways away, about where she would start throwing a tantrum and let her rest. Take her back to the other horses and make her work. Take her away a little farther than the first time and keep repeating until she can be taken away without any fits.

When you are done for the day, tie her up in a safe place away from the other horses and let her stand there for an hour or two. If she is standing without fussing, let her go back to the pasture or barn with the other horses. If she is fussing, have her stand for another hour. Repeat until she stands calmly before turning her out.


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

Cherie said:


> This not a Vet or health issue. It is simply a terribly her-bound horse that needs to be taught how to handle separation. Some horse have a more difficult time handling separation than other and this one is a 9 or 10 on a scale of 1-10. They can be dangerous and they can hurt people and hurt themselves if they are not taught to be sane and 'give it up'.
> 
> The ONLY cure I know is to tie them out under a tree limb until they quit. I have had it take at long as 3 full days. I take them out in the morning after they have been fed and nave drank water and I put them up at night when I do chores. I offer water at noon but most won't drink and they are just fine. I have done this for more than 30 years of my 50 years of training and have not had one injure itself and have not had one get better.
> 
> ...


I am in so total agreement with Cherie again. Right now you have a dangerous horse to try to fix and extreme measures are sometimes required for these short-tempered type horses who are in serious need of remedial training. Tie Jynx to about wither high with little or no slack in the lead. You might see if you can find an inner tube of a vehicle tire and secure it strongly to said tree and tie off the lead to that.

Do expect Jynx to have a total meltdown with pitching resisting the restraints imposed on her. The thing about horses pitching fits and getting away with it only makes the situation worse. If it takes 3 days to settle your horse down, then so be it. Another thing to know is that when a horse reaches the height of their fit pitching is when their are about to quit and accept the restraints imposed on it.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i'd go for a walk with the horse on a long line (22+ ft) with a whip of some sort to help defend myself if needed, and keep going further untill the horse lost control of itsself, stay there and do whatever i can to keep our distance from the rest of the herd, and simply outlast her. eventually she'll regain control, then once that's happened i'd ask her to lower her head a few times (very submissive) then go home, letting her know that the only way to get home (to the herd) is to be in control of herself when she's away from home.

and untill you and the horse have control of the issue i personally wouldn't be riding at all, as being on the horses back puts you in a less than powerful (and dangerous) position to help the horse through this sort of thing.


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## jdw (Mar 17, 2011)

I also agree with Cherie and candandy; But I would DEFINATELY use the tractor tire intertube (thax MHFQ) which will lend a bit of give. Tie them off and do not waste your time or risk injury to yourself or her. She has to focus on you and when in this state of mind she won't. Anxiety seperation alone is bad enough, but you have these other issues going on as well. I may have missed this, but how old is she? Just curious how long she has been getting by with this behavior....(before you had her I mean)


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Thanks guys. I think what worries me most is these tantrums - the herd bound issue is relatively new, shes been worked and ridden away from other horses consistently since I've had her and this is the first time it's been an issue and is within a week of moving to a new barn - even Justus is acting stupid and herdbound, and she's a pretty stable and sane pony.

I like the tying to a tree idea anyway, mostly because tying itself has been a major issue in her training as well. She would pitch tantrums over tying, and after snapping a restraint and almost going over backwards, I took her out and tied her to a tree at the ranch with a bit of give and sacked her out. She blew a few times before realizing she wasn't getting loose again and finally stood quietly and let me touch her all over. This was a year ago and she's been perfect for tying since - until last weekend when we got her in the trailer, and she decided to randomly pitch a tantrum once she was inside. The doors were already closed, so she basically just hauled back and slammed herself against the sides for half a minute before giving up. It just SERIOUSLY concerned me because nothing happened and I thought we were done with the tying issues.

I have no doubts her "herdboundness" will resolve itself, but the increasing temper tantrums at ANYTHING she doesn't want to do is concerning. After we fix this issue, what is she going to pitch tantrums about next?

I bought her as a spoiled 2 year old who was a nipper, a kicker and would bowl you over without a second thought. We had a few "come to Jesus" meetings when she decided she'd rather kick my head in then be lunged or groomed. She'd never had her feet done, and that first time was a trial on everyone - it's been two years and she's STILL prone to blowups with the farrier if I don't watch her like a hawk and distract her constantly.

She's come extremely far with her ground work, and 90% of the time I have total respect in the halter, even for tying she "had" reached a point where she would not tighten that slack on pain of death. But then she has her "moments" where NOTHING matters but getting her away. I would say she has never won yet during these moments, and yet it seems to do little in teaching her it's a waste of time next time. 

To whoever mentioned the hormone imbalances, I think I may talk to the vet again when he comes out to do vaccinations and see what he thinks. I am not a pro trainer, but I am not inexperienced whatsoever, I've been riding, working and training horses my entire 25 years and I have yet to see a horse seem SO "bi-polar". One minute she's in your pocket, nuzzling and loving on you and overjoyed just to be with you, and the next she's deliberately trying to hurt you in her quest to do something. I've learned to be quick on my feet around her, but how long until she hurts someone else who's not expecting her to snap? :?


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Problems:
1. She's only good when she's doing what she wants. 
2. When she gets pressured she acts out.

Solution:
1. Always make it seem that your ideas are her ideas. 
2. Stop pressuring her because you are acting like a predator.

It's very simple but very hard you need to change your ways and stop forcing and being such a linear thinker.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

How about you offer some ACTUAL advice instead of just preaching generalized natural horsemanship advice? I took her for a walk, and kept her mind focused. Please, tell me, how exactly you would have reacted in a situation where the "pressure" basically means I won't drop my lead rope and let her run home?


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## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

heres my 2cents. If I had a horse with that much separation anxiety I'd treat it like a foal that needs to be weaned. Now there are several ways to do this. 1. put her out with other horses,(not her buddy) If you're at a boarding facillty you'll need the BO's and the other horses owners permission. 2.leave jynx in a safe place and move the other horse, when she calms down, bring the other horse back. repeat till jynx stays calm when the other horse leaves. then take jynx and leave the other horse, repeat till she stays calm. 3. leave jynx in a safe place, and just walk your other horse around in sight, occasionally going out of sight, do this at small increments and eventually jynx will realize that your other horse is going to come back. then repeat with jynx... I wouldn't ride jynx until you have her separation anxiety worked out, or at least a lot better. you don't want her getting hurt or you getting hurt.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> How about you offer some ACTUAL advice instead of just preaching generalized natural horsemanship advice? I took her for a walk, and kept her mind focused. Please, tell me, how exactly you would have reacted in a situation where the "pressure" basically means I won't drop my lead rope and let her run home?


How about I get on a plane and help you out. Would that work for you? All kidding aside I would if I could. 

I made the comments small so that the message was clear. I'm glad that you are asking for more information. I am not preaching. You see preaching would be more like this: Now you silly girl can't you get your horse under control. I'm not saying that.

Let me go back and reread your post and I'll give you a couple points.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

OK JWells, Christopher, and USandPets give good advice. I would absolutely not tie this horse up to "let her work it out" and especially not with an inner tube. You should go read the post of how to teach a horse to tie.

To add to what they have already said:

With a horse like this I would play with her in her field with her buddy. I would practice going towards the horse and away from the horse. I would bring a tarp right into the field and maybe a barrel and practice things with the other horse their. I would do that for a couple of weeks. I would plan the sessions so that it is really fun for both of you. Having the attitude of "lets play". 

One thing you have to recognize is it is Spring - your mare is probably going in and out of heat. So maybe just give her some time off and just brush her in her field and give her some affection. 

Most importantly be careful with both yourself and her - don't do anything that jeopardizes anyone's safety. Don't lose your patience, temper, and be confident. Be calm/assertive and try to always set yourself up for success. How do we do that? We plan things in advance so all or at least most of the what if this happens has an answer.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

MM, you had a relationship breakdown with an Arab a few months ago, where your riding buddy had to fill in for you, & you asked for help here. I pm'd you, saying that if you'd look into PP groundwork/psychology, it'd help you, but you're so against it. I think that this is horse #2, but it's a repeat of a relationship breakdown between you & your horse.

Then TLO gives you good advice, & you snark "quit preaching NHS!" 

You'd think, that with these ongoing relationship problems that you're having with horses, that you'd BE APPRECIATIVE of others' efforts to help, & HAVE A TEACHABLE SPIRIT!

As TLO said, you have to understand that it's not about CONTROL THAT HORSE, it's about a RELATIONSHIP WITH that horse. 

You must get off the CONTROL her, TIE her till you BREAK her spirit, & all other PREDATORY behaviors. Plus, I will add, especially since you're dealing with Arabs! They are too sensitive, they take offense to predatory acts very acutely, & sometimes hold grudges, if they see that the predator is still into being a predator, underneath a smaill surface change of behavior modification. With Arabs, you'd better be prepared for true emotional growth, into a HORSEperson.

You must instead develop into the kind of leader she needs, by developing a RELATIONSHIP with her.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

"Arabs are way too smart for the average cowboy!!" Ray Hunt 

Well said Northern.


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## TKButtermilk (May 20, 2010)

So last night I typed out a huge thing about this and my experiences with my mare on my phone, and hit the wrong button. Bye byeee. So I'm going to try again! 

I got a mare a year ago who was amazing undersaddle, totally mellow, not bomb proof necessarily but an awesome, non spooky mare anyone could ride. We always had her alone, but next to other horses. Never had an issue. I trailered her into the mountains, she was stalled surrounded by other horses. I rode with just me and my dog for HOURS wayy out there. She was a dream! Moved her to a new place where she lived in a small pasture with my moms mare. Took then out for the first time and as soon as my moms mare got too far (still easily in sight) my mare lost her mind probably as bad as, if not worse than yours. She was not thinking in the least. There was one thing she wanted and that was to be over there, she was in full panic mode. Frantic screaming, bucking, rearing. She caught me so off gaurd that she got ahead of me and there's no holding a horse when you don't have control. See when I got her, I just had babies that were all in training, so when I wanted to just ride and not have to train ever little thing I rode her, and totally lacked ground school wise because I was enjoying the break. Bad bad bad. That's biting me in the booty now. So this mare gets away and goes barreling straight for my mom and on top of this she is Smart. It took one time getting away from me( first time I ever had that happen with any horse! Ugh!) for her to figure out EXACTLY what she needed to do to get what she wanted, because when she gets her head away and her shoulder past me I have zero control. It took her getting away 4 times for me to figure out how to keep her semi focused so I could lead her 50 ft. If I start disengaging her hindquarters and backing her randomly BEFORE she freaks I can keep her with me. I did this everydah, never taking her back until she was completely calm and walking quietly. All this mostly worked but seperating her (where she can still easily see her buddy) is working WAY better. If I had had a tree to tie her to, I wouldve and it wouldve worked too because anything else was crazy dangerous. She was not thinking of her own safety let alone mine! 

I do not understand what the point of "playing" with her and her buddy wouldve done. And just because she has this issue doesn't mean you don't have a relationship wth is that? Me and my mare have a great "relationship" she nickdrs when she sees me, follows me like a puppy. Herd boundness is a serious psychological problem. My mare zeriously thinks she's going to die when she's not near my moms mare. But we are dealing. 

Anywho, you are not alone. My mare is just as psycho if not more so and you're awesome for getting her home safely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

You don't have a good relationship if you can't take your horse away from the herd. End of story. TKB what you are doing by disengaging and backing etc are strategies which do work but if the relationship is so off track then I'm afraid this will also not work. I've worked with plenty of horses that started off herd bound but it didn't take long to change their minds because it was interesting and safe to be with me.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> "Arabs are way too smart for the average cowboy!!" Ray Hunt


 OMG, never knew RH said that! So true! Thanks, TLO!



TKButtermilk said:


> , and totally lacked ground school wise . Bad bad bad. That's biting me in the booty now.
> 
> I do not understand what the point of "playing" with her .. Herd boundness is a serious psychological problem. _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Because, by "playing", you're offering Love, Language, & Leadership, not just CONTROL, like a predator. You already admitted that lack of groundwork has come back to bite you, so? Herd-boundness is NOT a psychological PROBLEM in a horse! It is NATURAL, & when you become the leader in your herd of two, you'll just LOVE your horse's herdboundness!


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## TKButtermilk (May 20, 2010)

Northern said:


> OMG, never knew RH said that! So true! Thanks, TLO!
> 
> Because, by "playing", you're offering Love, Language, & Leadership, not just CONTROL, like a predator. You already admitted that lack of groundwork has come back to bite you, so? Herd-boundness is NOT a psychological PROBLEM in a horse! It is NATURAL, & when you become the leader in your herd of two, you'll just LOVE your horse's herdboundness!


How is my mare completely losing her mind and not even thinking of her own safety natural? Sure to some extent it is but she's way over the top. It is not natural, or healthy. I am all for natural horsemanship and practice it everyday, but cannot see how "playing" with them together would fix her issues. Great in theory though. I do work with them together, and shed great as long as she isn't taken away from her. I can and do work with her while the other mare is there, that's fine and dandy but it doesn't help when the mare leaves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

FWIW, I don't think its a physical problem, but an emotional one. She's not listening to you because she can't and you can't teach her if she's not paying attention. IMHO, emotional issues are fear based and I don't handle them the same way I do disobedience/disrespect issues. Personally, I wouldn't tie her up and let her fight it out - being restrained isn't what's causing the anxiety and lack of self control - separation is. As jwells84 suggested above, I'd treat her like a weanling, separate her completely from the other horse in a place where she cannot get hurt and let her deal with it in her own way. I'd also approach working with her in the same way I would approach dealing with any other "fear based" issue - desensitize her - work with her where she is comfortable and get her gradually used to being further and further away from the other horses. IN MY OPINION this is a horse that doesn't need a relationship with you - she's getting what she needs from Justus. Until you take Justus out of the picture and teach her that she will be safe and secure with you, then you might as well be ****ing in the wind. Relationship wise, right now, all you two do is fight and argue, THAT is what needs to change. She doesn't want to be with you because being with you is STRESSFUL. Like all problems, this didn't happen over night and it won't be fixed overnight. I'm not saying be all lovey dovey with her, she doesn't need that either. What she does need is leadership presented when she needs it and in a way that is nonthreatening.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

TKB she's acting out to save herself which is completely natural. I guess you would have to learn more about why playing with your horse in the presence of their herd mates works. But I do think it has been answered. Is there something specific you don't understand?


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## TKButtermilk (May 20, 2010)

You have your opinions and I have mine. I used my opinions and experience with my mare and solved her issue, which is why I posted on here to begin with. These things worked for me(and my mare) and those things work for you and that's fine. I don't have to agree with them for them to work. I'm not going to continue with this argument because I'm not the one looking for help, and this isn't getting the OP anywhere, which isn't fair on her thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

MM, I think I understand a little what you're dealing with. I occasionally groundwork a spoiled rotten QH gelding for some elderly neighbors. These people are only his second home in ~15 years, and they've had him for about 8 years now. He ruled the roost at his first home (my understanding is that he was never exactly weaned until he was sold), and rules the roost now. The owners simply aren't physically able to provide the leadership that he needs to be a good citizen, and honestly think that his semi-dangerous high-jinks are "cute." :roll:

This gelding basically has a very low threshold of tolerance for human direction. There just comes a point where if you assert yourself, he gives you the finger and throws a tantrum until he breaks something and gets his way. He is a master of "shock and awe" tactics. He's better for me than for the owners, because I've managed up to now to not push him to a tantrum while still getting my point across and not letting him "win." They and his previous owners simply allowed a pattern of behavior and dominance to start, and now, 10 years later, we have a "problem-child." 

The only advice I can give you based on personal experience is to be creative, be totally and completely unemotional about everything, and be satisfied with little steps. The gelding above responds very well when I adopt the general mindset of taking his ideas to my defined extreme; he wants to do x, and I'll encourage that movement until he's bored with it and 5 seconds longer, then let him rest on my terms. 

I'm sure that you already know how to do all of this; Jynx is your horse, you know her and her mind better than anyone. I'm just offering up my similar experience, hopefully you can draw some use from it for yourself. I'll be lurking to see if there are any good suggestions for my neighbor's gelding as well. :wink:

Best of luck!!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Well -- Loved one -- I'll bet you have actually 'fixed' as many truly herd-bound horses like this as you have seen Thorobreds being abused in cross ties on the race track. [I am afraid you lost ALL credibility with me on that one!]

You can spout all of the theories you want, but horses that get this panicked over separation have probably not seen the Parelli DVDs. A horse like this is as dangerous as an aggressive horse. I, personally, would not be bothered taking my time and risking my well-being even trying to work with a horse like this until it has gotten over the separation. It has nothing about the horse's relationship with its owner and has everything to do with the fact that the horse has gotten phobic and irrational about a 'horse friendship'.

As a matter of fact, I had one brought to me a few years ago by a woman that was 100% into Parelli and had had years of private tutoring by a 3 star (or something like that) Parelli instructor. She just could not understand why her perfectly trained horse that knew all 7 games and would do them at liberty had suddenly come completely apart on her when she moved him. It seems he 'fell in love' with a mare at the new place she had him and he went completely crazy. It was not her relationship but his mind-set that needed changed.

We inherited the worst one I have ever seen when my husband went to work for a cutting horse breeder. He had a mare that had won quite a bit of money as a 3 and 4 year old and was hauled all over the Midwest. She came back to live home as a 5 year old and was going to be shown in non-pro by her owner. Then, she fell in love with the horses on either side of her stall. She was home where the man had open stall tops with mesh instead of solid sides like his trainer had. We put her in a solid stud stall and she ruined the stall, dug holes and grooves in the floor a foot or deeper, sored up both hocks twisting and turning on them -- so she was put back in her open stall.

She was hauled to a cutting show in St Louis and quit the cow to whinny in the middle of a class. This, mind you, is a very well trained finished cutting mare that lost her mind. She reared up in the warm-up pen with her non-pro owner. She was un-showable and the owner was beside himself as he had over $20,000.00 in training in her and she had shown that she could win a pretty tough cutting.

I told them I thought tying her out would be the only solution. [I was training for the public out of the same barn.] The owner OKed it, so we found a suitable tree about 100 yards from the barn. We hung a good rope down from a big tree limb (had to get in a tractor front end loader to do it). It took 3 full days for her to give it up. The first day, husband had to go out with the front end loader 2 or 3 times and fill back in the hole she dug. It was about 3 feet deep and she was standing on her tippy-toes. He only had to fill it back up once the second day and by the afternoon of the third day, she was standing with a hip cocked by that evening.

They went back to riding her the next day and she was a different horse. They left the rope hanging from the tree and tied her out to it to cool off after each bath following working -- just to make sure she kept her thinking straight. They started hauling her again shortly after that and she rode like she was supposed to. They even took her to overnight shows and she was OK in a strange barn with strange horses. The only thing they did differently with her was to change her stall and/or her neighbors regularly so sh ewould not get that attached to a certain horse after that.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Yes! I have also heard that Ray Hunt said that. I have also heard that he said the same thing about mules. 

Having raised and trained both and having shown Arabians at a National level, I must say that most Arabians and Mules ARE indeed smarter than their handlers. And "Yes!", Arabians also respond very well to tying out until settled just like any other horse I've trained.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Thanks Cherie but you never had any credibility with me after reading your first post a couple months ago. There are lots of trainers just like you and the horses are not fixed overnight which becomes apparent once they go back to their owners. I am always amused when I hear of these Parelli owned horses. I can talk about lots of people Parelli and non-Parelli that have troubles with their horses. Some people are just not good with horses. This proves nothing about you as a trainer.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I didn't see anywhere in there that even slightly suggested that lack of groundwork was the problem. MM has said many times that she is committed to groundwork with Jynx. 

While it is awesome that NH works for you both, maybe it wont work for MM and her horses. Trying to put every horse in the NH basket is what makes NH so frustrating! Not every horse is into it! Not every rider is in to it! 

If Jynx is throwing temper tantrums at work, stick with work. MM, you know this mare best. Take everyones advice and come up with a solution that works for her. To me, playing with her in the field is only going to show her that home is much more fun than away. If play must be introduced, I would do it away from her herd.

ETA: No 'problem' with horses is *EVER* solved quickly. You don't just tie a horse out away from its friends for a few hours and then *TADA* all finished! It is about a work in progress. My OTTB has issues with boundaries on the ground. If I send him away one day, I better be prepared to do it again day after day til he really gets it. And even then...6 months from now, he is probably going to try to push the issue again. It is natural to challenge boundaries.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Just curious Corinowalk what is ETA? I thought it means estimated time of arrival.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, most of the horses I re-trained over the years did indeed stay trained. Many people kept in touch with me for years calling me every time they had any horse problems. Some still do more than 40 years after I rode horses for them or their parents.

Most were very happy except those that I would not help because they had a completely unsuitable horse and their experience level would never be adequate for the spoiled dink they had. I could have just taken their money and warned them and then let them get hurt later, but I would evaluate their horse and his problem and their experience level and go from there. I even had some of them come back later to tell me that I was right and they should have gotten rid of the horse when I first suggested it.

I'll bet I've probably saved more horses from the slaughter buyer's pen than about any one else on this board. Literally dozens of the horses I took in during my early years of training were headed for the kill pen and I was their last chance. These included rearers and flippers, broncs, dozens of barn sour and buddy sour horses and several aggressive horses that had attacked owners and several stallions that had attacked trainers with two that had put people in the hospital, (both people were maimed and nearly killed).

As for Parelli trained horses -- they have been some of the maddest horses I have ever seen with ears laid back incessantly and a perpetual sour look. On top of that, there is not 1 in 20 or maybe 50 that rides well. Someone has tried to teach them everything -- ad naseum -- from the ground because they lacked the skill to ride well. I just now dismiss all of them. If I am helping a 'Newby' or a 4-H parent look for a horse, I will not even go and look at a Parelli horse any more. Too many have been a waste of time.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

TheLovedOne said:


> Just curious Corinowalk what is ETA? I thought it means estimated time of arrival.


Edit to add.


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## TheLovedOne (Jan 26, 2011)

Thanks AB - edit to add.

Cherie it is funny that you talk like that - this guy in my community talks exactly the same way. He's about your age in his sixties. He's a very personable guy and I can't say that I dislike him. I actually think that he's a lot of fun and I know that a lot of people really like him as fellow human. As a horse trainer he is terrible and people are always calling him back because they have to since the problems are never resolved. He lies about it and says that horses are never brought back and that they are "fixed" once he's finished with them. He talks just like you Cherie.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Thank you very much guys! I greatly appreciate your stories, it's nice to know I'm not alone! I will definitely be taking in a lot of the advice offered here and incorporating it into a plan for her. I handled this tantrum very unemotionally and with patience which is the only thing that stopped anyone from getting hurt I think. You really can't get pushy or aggressive with this horse at this point or you're going to be in danger.

For the record, Jynx is not an Arab. My other horse is an Arab. And our relationship has improved beautifully since I STOPPED doing Parelli with her - sorry, but it simply did not work for her whatsoever. Our entire relationship is right back to where it used to be. I am USED to working with Arabs - Jynx is a Paint. Thankfully, working with Arabs my entire life has given me pretty limitless patience! :lol:

Quite frankly, I am sick and tired of the NH crew waltzing into every thread and loudly announcing how everyone is wrong and everything is wrong. I find it amusing and ironic that you can NEVER seem to give actual advice, you just regurgitate the stuff you read with such conviction it will work on every single horse. I have serious doubts as to how many horses either of you have trained and/or fixed.

I am NOT against NH. I incorporate a GOODLY amount of real techniques into my training. I just don't blindly follow any trainer with an expensive DVD set. I have tried several methods, many of which work on some horses and just as many which do not. I am open to all advice, but no, I do not have a use for people to be preaching all about the horrors of anything but a completely twisted version of NH.

A huge thanks especially to corinowalk, Cherie, ScoutRider and TKButtermilk. Your stories and advice were very helpful, and I will continue to work Jynx with confidence and care. Today we took Justus and Zierra out for a ride, and Jynx did not spend the entire time racing the fence line and screaming so that's some progress!


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

TheLovedOne said:


> He talks just like you Cherie.


My goodness, you are so rude.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Cherie said:


> You can spout all of the theories you want, *TLO & I are not SPOUTING; what a snarky word to use!* but horses that get this panicked over separation have probably not seen the Parelli DVDs.*More snark!...*the horse has gotten phobic and irrational about a 'horse friendship'. *It's not "phobic" nor "irrational": it's a normal horse.*
> 
> 
> Then, she fell in love with the horses on either side of her stall. *Normal*.She was home where the man had open stall tops with mesh instead of solid sides like his trainer had. We put her in a solid stud stall and she ruined the stall, dug holes and grooves in the floor a foot or deeper, sored up both hocks twisting and turning on them -- so she was put back in her open stall. *As if putting her in "solitary confinement" was going to calm her down! You thought it might?*
> ...


 


MacabreMikolaj said:


> For the record, Jynx is not an Arab. My other horse is an Arab. *Oh, ok*.
> Quite frankly, I am sick and tired of the NH crew waltzing into every thread and loudly announcing how everyone is wrong and everything is wrong. "*Quite frankly", you have been at the end of your rope with both of your horses, within a few months of each other, & I'm sick & tired of your foregone conclusion that any NHS advice will be wrong! *I find it amusing and ironic that you can NEVER seem to give actual advice, you just regurgitate *snark! *the stuff you read with such conviction it will work on every single horse. I have serious doubts as to how many horses either of you have trained and/or fixed. *You don't look so savvy, from your posts about your not knowing how to help your horses. You have two, & you've not known what to do, so why do you persist in your "savvier than thou" mode, rejectiing NHS advice?*
> 
> ... I am open to all advice, but no, I do not have a use for people to be preaching all about the horrors of anything but a completely twisted version of NH.*WTH?!*


From your unkind & ungrateful words, you can rest assured that I won't offer further advice to you in the case of any future pleas for help on your part.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Northern said:


> From your unkind & ungrateful words, you can rest assured that I won't offer further advice to you in the case of any future pleas for help on your part.


I couldn't imagine a happier world.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

I'm really just kinda sorry how out of hand this topic got. 

That being said, I have no idea what Natural Horsemanship versus regular horsemanship is, I think its kinda a blurry line. And I will pick no sides, but this is what I do to break a herd bound horse, without leaving it to its own devices. I have ALWAYS found this process ENJOYABLE! (I know, breaking a herd bound horse can be enjoyable!! its amazing aint it? )

I have used this many times, its quite simple. Take the horse outside the pasture, but I mean directly outside the pasture. Let them eat, talk to them, brush them, anything they like to calm them down (Ill use the example of brushing them because thats what my mare prefered) And keep them close to their buddy. Once they are comfortable being just outside the fence, then put them back.

Next day, come back and do the same thing, except 10 feet away from the fence. Once you have finished grooming them put them away. Once again, calm and (if you groom them well) clean 

Next day, take them 20 feet. (see where I am going with this?)

Next day, 30 feet.

Yes, it does take some time to get them comfortable from far away from their friends, but this technique builds up a few things within the horse. 1)It teaches the horse that they will not die on their own outside the pasture.
2) It teaches the horse that they will ALWAYS return to their buddy, and that no matter how far they go away, they will always be returned to their friends.

And most importantly
3) Throughout the process, the horse will start to see you as the leader since they are protected and happy throughout the entire process. Its a way to bond with the horse without making it a battle of wills.

The most important things are to make these times enjoyable. By the time you are done the horse may actual want to come outside with you  Mine did. 

Anyways your mare is young, only 3, as it says on your horses profile. So she is definitely learning and may never have been taught the basics of human interaction. 

Good luck, and above all be safe, both for you and her!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Thank you Lakota! I am definitely prepared to take the time, Jynx is actually 4 this year but we seemed to suffer a major setback this winter with her being cooped up in a stall. I'm hoping having so much room to run again will start to bring her around, it HAS only been a week since we moved so I very well could simply be expecting to much. It's just a bit startling as she was SO good last year, we went on multiple big group rides as well as solo trail rides and even attended her first show. She was SO docile and sweet natured last year, and this winter everything just seemed to go haywire.

I think that's a good idea, simply grooming her and working with her right at the pasture and work it up into longer sessions. I very well may have pushed her to hard, not taking into account how fried she is from this winter and the overwhelmingness of the new move. I don't intend to ride her again until the round pen is dry, and that will be several weeks, so may as well take some time to smell the roses so to speak and see if we can't find a compromise!


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

Good idea. Remind her why she should trust you and work on the ground. Its always good to touch up ground manners before saddle manners either way


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## jdw (Mar 17, 2011)

It sounds like you are doing ALL you can for her. My hat's off to you for being so thorough and trying everything. Good grief, you must have the patients of a saint!!! (after awhile I just wanna SMACK mine) Dont have to bc it seems he knows when I am at the boiling point, so he usually yields. I have had one like this filly and to be honest, it wore me out!! I was like you and afraid he would hurt someone else when he threw these 'fits'. The terrible injustice they did to her by allowing her to be untrained to normal and acceptable behavior as a young foal-2 yrs old. Hang in there~the world needs more horse people like you!!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

jdw said:


> It sounds like you are doing ALL you can for her. My hat's off to you for being so thorough and trying everything. Good grief, you must have the patients of a saint!!! (after awhile I just wanna SMACK mine) Dont have to bc it seems he knows when I am at the boiling point, so he usually yields. I have had one like this filly and to be honest, it wore me out!! I was like you and afraid he would hurt someone else when he threw these 'fits'. The terrible injustice they did to her by allowing her to be untrained to normal and acceptable behavior as a young foal-2 yrs old. Hang in there~the world needs more horse people like you!!


Awwww, thanks, that really means a lot to me! It really is quite sad that Jynx has to go through all this just because someone couldn't be bothered to train her even half properly for the first 2 years of her life. I'm fairly confident she would have gone for slaughter if I hadn't purchased her, being such a spoiled unregistered 2 year old with no work. She definitely tries my patience some days, but she is SUCH an amazing horse when she wants to be, I know it will be all worth it in the end!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

tying a horse up won't solve its herdboundedness. it might teach it to internalise it's herdboundedness (become right brain introverted, if PNH floats your boat), but the horse won't learn that the human in the situation actually is it's herd, because the human isn't present. this is like forcing a child who is desperately afraid of the dark to spend 3 days in a pitch black room. it might teach it not to express its fear in future (because if it does it knows it'll be locked up in that room again), but at the cost of true confidence, because it isn't confident in itsself (or it's leader) in the situation, it's just confident that if it externalises (becomes right brain extroverted, if your into PNH) it's need for fear will become more severe.

also, tying it up (or locking the child in the dark room) might show the horse(/child) that there's nothing to fear, because as 3rd parties we don't see anything seriously scary happening to the horse(/child), but that simply isn't how phobia works.

tying is only a good training method for 1 thing, teaching a horse to give to a halter (the horse should already know this before you tie it though, tying just 'cements' it in the horses mind).

i dunno about ya'll but i'd much prefer a herd bound horse that saw me as it's herd leader, then a non-herdbound horse that saw me as an adversary.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

christopher said:


> i dunno about ya'll but i'd much prefer a herd bound horse that saw me as it's herd leader, then a non-herdbound horse that saw me as an adversary.


^^^^ I couldn't agree more!!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

While I agree to an extent christopher, I don't agree with the analogy. By that reasoning, just the very act of taking her away from the herd could be equated with locking a child in a dark room - her tantrum pitched a mile from home was no different then the tantrum that would be pitched if she was tied with no where to go. In both cases, she's experiencing EXTREME equine "emotion" and mental distress.

I won't be using the tying method at this point, mostly because it's not my property and I simply don't have the time to be leaving her tied for half a day and even moreso, I don't think this method is right for her at this point. The only trees I could use are right by the pasture anyway and if that's the cases, I think I would accomplish much more as you have said, working to solidify my position as her leader and partner instead of her enemy by playing with her BY the pasture so as to not cause such extreme distress.

What are your opinions about using the barn? It seemed to work wonders in calming her down - she didn't have me, or restraints to fight against and after 20 minutes she was quietly munching hay. I don't know if it's a direct relation, but today when we went riding, she was happy to remain up front and eating instead of freaking out because Justus was gone. What are your opinions on this?


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## momo3boys (Jul 7, 2010)

Can we just lock up all the people that treat there young horses like puppies and not train them to do anything or respect ANYONE!?

I hear ya, the one thing that I have to remember is just what you said MM, sometimes my expectations are too high. One day my 3yo is a prefect gentlemen the next a brat. I need to remember that considering his past and his age I should be expecting the brat not the gentlemen! Stick with it and be patient, I know that it has worked magic in my horse. 

I loved the idea of brushing and chilling just outside the pasture. That makes perfect sense.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i assume by using the barn you mean


MacabreMikolaj said:


> We worked all the way to the barn, where she was promptly led inside and put into a box stall. She pitched a fit, complete with screaming and hurling her body against the walls of the stall. I closed all doors and just let her defuse. After about 20 minutes, it was finally silent, so I walked in, caught her and led her directly out to pasture and turned her loose before any "excited energy" could start, and also while Justus was still being ridden so she wasn't going "back" to her, just being turned out with her other buds as a reward for calming down and acting sane.


if so, for the situation and if the horse is familiar with the barn then you did the right thing by giving her what she wanted when she improved.

and the child in a room analogy implies that you lock the child in the room all alone to let it sort itsself out. if you were to walk into the room with the child as a friend and 'keep the door open' the whole time, it won't neccesarily teach the child that the dark room isn't scary but it'll teach the child that in your presence the door will always be open and there'll always be a way out, the child just has to wait for your say so and leadership. now convert that back to horses and you'll have something much the same as my previous advice


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Ok, that makes a little more sense! With the barn being a nice relaxed place, and such a huge stall for her to move in, it's more of a "time out" then being locked away, correct? She learns rather fast she can't fight against anything and that she has food and water and maybe it would be better to just nibble some hay? As soon as she was quiet, I walked in, and very fluidly just caught her and led her straight outside so she associated being calm with the reward of going back outside.

I really think I'm going to work on the grooming and playing by the pasture, and keep her focused on me while she's still able to see her friends. I really think I simply pushed her to hard, and expected a bit to much for the state her mind is in right now - as I said, she was a perfect angel for the first part of the trip and then just gradually progressed to being worse.

Thanks again everyone, you've been super helpful!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

usandpets said:


> Another method to fix a herd bound horse is to work them where they want to be and let them rest away from there. Start with working her close to the other horses. Then take her a little ways away, about where she would start throwing a tantrum and let her rest. Take her back to the other horses and make her work. Take her away a little farther than the first time and keep repeating until she can be taken away without any fits.
> 
> When you are done for the day, tie her up in a safe place away from the other horses and let her stand there for an hour or two. If she is standing without fussing, let her go back to the pasture or barn with the other horses. If she is fussing, have her stand for another hour. Repeat until she stands calmly before turning her out.


This is how I work herdbound horses. And if you can't do it safely undersaddle (which with her, it sounds like you may not at first!), then start in hand...and work her...HARD!!! If she get's excited as you're leaving the gate...then that is where your work starts; I will lunge, do sending exercises, back, hip yields, shoulder yields, etc...either way, the horse IS NOT comfortable, NOR is he standing still...when he has been worked for a good chunk of time, then once again ask the horse to move off with you. If he goes with you quietly, then go for a few steps and ask her to stand for a few moments to catch her breath. (start small gradually further as the horse gets the concept that walking away from the herd=rest.) 

Note, I never work a horse that is pushy in a nylon halter, I always use a rope halter, and if he is particularly pushy, I will use one with four knots on the noseband. IF you don't have a rope halter, you may need to work her in a snaffle bit and lunge line, or even a chain lead to begin with, so she can't just barge into you. 

Part of what I see 'wrong' with what you were doing with your mare when she was in such a heightened 'fight/flight' response (ie, she was in her reactive mind frame, not thinking mindframe), was that you kept asking her to stand still...What do horses do when they are scared? They run! So it makes sense when a horse is in his reactive state to get him to move his feet...this will help him engage his mind quicker, than trying to fight the reactive mind, by continually asking it to 'stand still' so to speak. Get her to move her feet, instead...get into that 'reactive' state and turn it into something more productive. When I am working with a horse that is edgy or restless, the last thing I ask him to do is stand still and look at the thing that is making him restless...I focus that energy into circles, or serpentines, whatever I can do in the space I have...and trust me, I have gotten quite creative over the years, to where I can even get a horse to move his feet considerably on a fairly narrow shoulder of a road...get creative, and get your horse's feet to move, and stop focusing on what he is already focused on! Focus on getting HIS focus back on you, and you will get much more accomplished. 

Not sure if any of that made sense...it's been a long day!!!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

MM, I liked your locked in stall until the temper tantrum ended process. 



MacabreMikolaj said:


> Quite frankly, I am sick and tired of the NH crew waltzing into every thread and loudly announcing how everyone is wrong and everything is wrong. I find it amusing and ironic that you can NEVER seem to give actual advice, you just regurgitate the stuff you read with such conviction it will work on every single horse.


I agree with you. And the irony is, if we go and post in a NH thread we get our hands slapped and told we are not allowed to because the thread is about NH stuff.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

mom2pride said:


> ...Part of what I see 'wrong' with what you were doing with your mare when she was in such a heightened 'fight/flight' response (ie, she was in her reactive mind frame, not thinking mindframe), was that you kept asking her to stand still...What do horses do when they are scared? They run! So it makes sense when a horse is in his reactive state to get him to move his feet...this will help him engage his mind quicker, than trying to fight the reactive mind, by continually asking it to 'stand still' so to speak. Get her to move her feet, instead...get into that 'reactive' state and turn it into something more productive. When I am working with a horse that is edgy or restless, the last thing I ask him to do is stand still and look at the thing that is making him restless...I focus that energy into circles, or serpentines, whatever I can do in the space I have...and trust me, I have gotten quite creative over the years, to where I can even get a horse to move his feet considerably on a fairly narrow shoulder of a road...get creative, and get your horse's feet to move, and stop focusing on what he is already focused on! Focus on getting HIS focus back on you, and you will get much more accomplished.


 Very good point! When I have a horse that gets jiggy on the trail (throwing a tantrum), I'll have them do circles, serpentine across the road, or sidepass back and forth. They stop focusing on whatever they were in the first place and start to focus back to me. Try and have your horse do something that it needs work on. They will get their focus back on you and get better at what they need to work on at the same time.


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## Lauren Woodard (Jul 7, 2010)

Thought I'd pop in here with something that works for me. I have lots of barrels and also a 3'6" corrugated hard plastic highway culvert about 8' long. It might be a bit of a pain to have 2 or 3 barrels away from the area, but when a horse is dangerous online or extremely fractious, I've found that giving them some jumping online makes them focus on their feet and gets their mind back.
You can see it in their faces. It's like they're saying, "Hey, I'm trying to throw a fit here and I can't do that while I'm having to figure out my jump distance."
If the horse is a competent jumper, I'll use a one-stride in-and-out on the circle. Just a thought.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I can hardly believe, MM, that you're unaware of the fact that your "NON-nhs" advice from the "non-nhs" people here (plus the one who's not sure of the difference) is all in Parelli: approach & retreat at the fence, getting the mind focused on a task, etc.!

So you're now thanking people for what you could've read in Level 1, or PP's book!

Your claim that, "Nhs had to be DROPPED on my Arab, for her to improve!" is patently absurd, as proven by your plan to do "nhs" with your Paint.

You just have a problem with the label nhs, PP, etc. That's silly, because good horsemanship is good horsemanship. 

Enjoy your approach & retreat, giving the horse a task to focus on, etc., but to say that all of that is not nhs is untrue.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm sure she is perfectly aware of it. The OP has mentioned that she uses NH, she just chooses not to subscribe to a trainer as the be all and all of training. 

Good horsemanship is good horsemanship, so there's no reason this thread has to deteriorate into a NH vs the world scuffle. 

The OP chooses to not use the 'play' method (I would not personally either). I think the advice mom2pride gave on is spot on and more useful towards this horse in particular.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Northern can you just leave the NHS stuff alone, MM has clearly stated she is not interested in it. I don't know why you keep forcing it down her throat.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't believe MM said she has trouble with SOME concepts of NH, just that she doesn't need expensive DVDs or useless crap from a snake oil salesman who took all his _good _ideas from the classicists to start with.

NH isn't new, nor did your god invent it, Northern. He is however, making a laughing stock out of what could be a perfectly good set of training ideas if he'd just drop the greed, smoke and mirrors, and all the cult aspects.

Besides, don't all you NH people scream and cry when someone who doesn't like it 'invades' one of _your_ threads? Do the courteous thing and go away, since MM has already told you she's not interested in your hype.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Northern said:


> ...
> Your claim that, *"Nhs had to be DROPPED *on my Arab, for her to improve!" is patently absurd, as proven by your plan to do "nhs" with your Paint...
> 
> .Enjoy your approach & retreat, giving the horse a task to focus on, etc., but *to say that all of that is not nhs is untrue*.


The gist of my point was in these two sentences. 

I really don't think that the rest of you missed my point, but if you did, I'm sorry about your reading comprehension.

There's no need to tell me to leave MM alone: I had nothing further to say to her, still don't, and won't, in future.


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

This NH vs whatever else kinda reminds me of high school  hehe. My point being that as long as the OP fixes her mare, then it doesn't matter how she got there. She GOT there!!

So MM hows it going? I'm kinda excited to hear her progress.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Thank you very much mom2pride, I definitely think you're 100% correct in this instance. Thinking back, the pressure was just too much for her and being asked to halt and back up when you want to throw a fit isn't doing much but concentrating that rage on your handler! I like your ideas, and they could easily be simultaneously used with the "play outside the pasture" method. I would like to do my best to keep her calm, but this is a great contingency plan for when she DOES choose to randomly blow.

She is handled exclusively in a rope halter, she has zero respect for any sort of flat nylon or leather. 

Haha, yeah, I really don't mind NH advice whatsoever, in fact MOST members who have given me advice could be said to be following some form of NH or another. What Northern and others of her group fail to understand entirely is how sick and tired of only THEM being the ones to waltz in and start throwing accusations left right and centre. I believe that what TLO and Northern were trying to tell me has actually been completely conveyed by other members with welcome reception by me because nobody was climbing on their high horse so to speak and becoming a know it all preacher. Don't come to my thread and start telling me how everything I stand for and everything I do is WRONG and expect anyone to give two hoots what your little opinion is or how much of an uber trainer you THINK you are.

I will never have a problem with NH, I have a problem with the NH attitude.

Lakotababii - I actually haven't had a chance to work her again yet! Things have been hectic and we've had some lousy weather and I opted to work with Zierra yesterday instead of Jynx as I felt it was also "working" Jynx a bit to have Justus leave her behind. I am hoping to make it out tomorrow!


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

MM, I sympathize with your situation, especially since you board (as do I) and therefore cannot spent the time with your horse that you need in order to fix this problem effectively.
I wonder if there is something you can do in that time that you are away. A previous poster (I am sorry, I forget who) mentioned something similar that they did..
What if you could arrange it so Jynx and Justus are not so physically close anymore? If their stalls are next to each, can they be moved? Can one of them be placed in a different paddock? 
Hope this helps, and good luck!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Thank you very much mom2pride, I definitely think you're 100% correct in this instance. Thinking back, the pressure was just too much for her and being asked to halt and back up when you want to throw a fit isn't doing much but concentrating that rage on your handler! I like your ideas, and they could easily be simultaneously used with the "play outside the pasture" method. I would like to do my best to keep her calm, but this is a great contingency plan for when she DOES choose to randomly blow.
> 
> She is handled exclusively in a rope halter, she has zero respect for any sort of flat nylon or leather.


You're welcome, girl! I hope you can get this worked out with your filly...it would be very flustering for sure to go out and try to go for even a leisurely walk, and all the horse wanted to do was run you over in an effort to get back to the barn. She is young though, so you DO have that to your advantage here...she is still very mouldable, and if you can get in several (even short 15 minute sessions) I believe you will see a very great difference. The key is the consistancy; when they have 4 days off you kind of start back at the beginning, so even a 15 minute session every other day, is better than 4-5 days off, 2 days on...you know? 

The appy I had for a good part of last year was like that...it was so discouraging, because he wasn't like that "all the time", especially once I had gained his respect on the ground, but when he had it in his mind that he did not want to be away from the barn, he would hurt himself or his handler to get back there...He did eventually come around, but it took a great while, becuase he was 15, so it took longer to retrain his mind completely. 

As far as the NH thing; well I was doing alot of what I've 'detailed' in alot of threads, long before all these popular trainers came into the spotlight...I never had internet growing up either, or cable, so I didn't really know of any of them until college; I had good teachers when I was growing up, who taught me about horse behavior, and taught me to learn from the horse, just as much as I wanted to teach the horse... But, as someone else mentioned...good horsemanship, is good horsemanship...no matter how it's "packaged".


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i've seen both PNH people and non-PNH people do good things with their horses, pretty equally. just as i've seen PNH people and non-PNH people do terrible things to their horses pretty equally.

using that, and some logic, one can assume:


mom2pride said:


> good horsemanship, is good horsemanship...no matter how it's "packaged".


also, personally i wouldn't encourage running around because i dont want to teach the horse that when it gets scared it's ok to just go into flight mode, but i'd allow it as the horse is undeniably a fight/flight animal and if you try to fight it's flight it wouldn't be the best thing for your horses overall confidence. so again i'd walk it out, let it do it's thing, defending myself if necessary (that's a given though) wait for it to calm down lower it's head a few times and possibly get some lateral flexion from the ground, then return home.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

christopher said:


> i've seen both PNH people and non-PNH people do good things with their horses, pretty equally. just as i've seen PNH people and non-PNH people do terrible things to their horses pretty equally.
> 
> using that, and some logic, one can assume:
> 
> ...


I think you are confusing simply 'letting the horse run around' with the handler putting the horse's feet to work. There is a difference; if I have a horse that is trying to lean on the line, and just "run around" I am going to do TONS of direction changes (I do as a general rule anyway, since the moving your feet, isn't about tiring the horse out, it's to engage his mind). I tend to work with alot of "flighty" horses, so this DOES work, I'm not just spouting off ideas. ;-) Getting him out of your space and moving his feet, helps with the 'defend' your space, thing, as well, since he is atleast 10-12 feet away (depending on the length of the lead). I do lunging, sending exercises, yielding hips and shoulders, backing...everything, and I don't give the horse much of a chance to think about the things around us at that moment; I want his focus on me. Before I know it, he is calmed down, and I slow down the exercises, and he's not even worried about the things he was previously worked up about, because he is focused on me. I think it is more of a preference thing though...I really don't want an agitated horse at my side, I'd rather have him out on a circle, or atleast sending back and forth in front of me.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Yeah, I agree mom2pride and you gave me even MORE advice! :lol: Jynx is also a total cow on the lunge, I've yet to figure out how to make her smarten up but she HAULS on the lunge as hard as she can and she'll drag you if you're not leaning at a 45 degree angle to the ground. I tried lunging in a bit, and while it sort of makes her stop leaning, she just starts shaking her head so violently, she trips and falls. I have literally tried everything, but make her change direction every few strides is one I haven't tried yet! I will definitely be adding it to my arsenal of tricks to make Jynx behave!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

if whenever the horse leans you change direction towards you then eventually the horse will lunge with a nicely slackened line, anticipating that change of direction.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

christopher said:


> if whenever the horse leans you change direction towards you then eventually the horse will lunge with a nicely slackened line, anticipating that change of direction.


Are you saying this as a good or bad thing? 

At this point, with this mare, I would want her head, and shoulder bending in a nice arch (the way it should be anyway), and the hip following, rather than pointed out, up, and forward, because she's just racing on the line. 

If a horse starts anticipating, and trying to change directions before I ask (body language is important here, as that is how I signal the change), I will just send him right back in the direction I had him going in the first place, and they quickly stop that, and let me continue changing direction for them.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

So quick update, Jynx was a doll today. I really think I simply pushed her and expected too much, too fast. I wasn't feeling well, and the farrier was coming so I had to rush out early and attempt to hose down 3 horses by myself - FUN. I tied Justus and Zierra up, and took Jynx over to the ditch and for the first time ever, she did not bat an EYELASH at the hose. I had her leadrope flipped over her neck, and was crouched practically underneath her, scrubbing with both hands and holding the hose in my mouth and she didn't MOVE.

We trimmed her first, she was brilliant. Due to her tying issues, I put her in a stall where she could still see us to do Justus and Zierra and she got really anxious at first but calmed down and was munching hay happily by the end. Afterwards, I had her ground tied outside the barn grooming her and she stood motionless.

For the first time in a LONG time, it finally felt like I had my Jynxy back. I really think the old barn MAJORLY screwed with her head - being locked in a stall, locked in a tiny paddock and pumped full of grain with staff that regularly mistreated her. :?

Anyway, thanks a ton for the advice and I will definitely continue to just take it slow with her and remind myself she IS very much a baby at heart and gets very insecure at times.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

That's great that you had such a positive day!!!! YAY Jynxy!!!!  Keep it up ladies!!!


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## Tabbi Kat (Nov 30, 2010)

Wow! I had to skip a few pages because of all of the ridiculous, childish arguing. Gotta love the horse world... everyone thinks they're right! Anywho, I just moved my horses and my mare started doing the same thing. Thanks for posting your problem. You definitely are not alone. I'm going to try some of the tips I read on my mare. Man, when she threw her big temper tantrum it threw me for a loop because she has never ever done that before. I have been treating and training her like she is a wild mustang again lol. Working with her like a yearling seems to be doing the trick. Lol the real test will be when we saddle up and leave the property I'm doing at least 30 days of ground training before I do that thought because she was being such a giant C.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

mom2pride said:


> Are you saying this as a good or bad thing?
> 
> At this point, with this mare, I would want her head, and shoulder bending in a nice arch (the way it should be anyway), and the hip following, rather than pointed out, up, and forward, because she's just racing on the line.
> 
> If a horse starts anticipating, and trying to change directions before I ask (body language is important here, as that is how I signal the change), I will just send him right back in the direction I had him going in the first place, and they quickly stop that, and let me continue changing direction for them.





christopher said:


> if whenever the horse leans you change direction towards you then eventually the horse will lunge with a nicely slackened line, anticipating that change of direction.


I think he is responding to the OP saying that her horse drags her around when lunging, which is bad. If I understand Christopher's post, he's saying that when the horse pulls or leans on the rope, you should have the horse change direction turning towards yourself. The horse will stop pulling because it will be anticipating that a change of direction is coming. Not the actual change itself, if that makes sense. I agree if they change directions before they are asked, they should be sent back in the original direction until asked.

One thing that I also do to get them to stop pulling is bump/jerk the rope as they go around. If they pull, their nose gets bumped. Then I let them have their nose back unless they pull again. It's more of an annoyance to them to pull. But I usually do the change of directions, which will work most of the time. It's always good to have a spare technique, if what you do doesn't work.

Congrats MM! Glad to hear she's coming around.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

usandpets said:


> I think he is responding to the OP saying that her horse drags her around when lunging, which is bad. If I understand Christopher's post, he's saying that when the horse pulls or leans on the rope, you should have the horse change direction turning towards yourself. The horse will stop pulling because it will be anticipating that a change of direction is coming. Not the actual change itself, if that makes sense. I agree if they change directions before they are asked, they should be sent back in the original direction until asked.
> 
> One thing that I also do to get them to stop pulling is bump/jerk the rope as they go around. If they pull, their nose gets bumped. Then I let them have their nose back unless they pull again. It's more of an annoyance to them to pull. But I usually do the change of directions, which will work most of the time. It's always good to have a spare technique, if what you do doesn't work.
> 
> Congrats MM! Glad to hear she's coming around.


Thanks...I "kinda" think that is what he is getting at as well...but it's been a crazy week here (and it ain't over yet :shock: !)


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Yeah, I employe the "bump" method, it's a necessity with her or you'd be lost just trying to haul on her. In my defense, she never has dragged me, but I account that more to me being a big tough cowgirl. I've had to run her into walls repeatedly to make her stop before, I don't know what on EARTH someone did to her on a lunge before me, but you'd swear the world was coming to the end. And no, I don't use a whip, she's entirely voice activated for the most part due to round penning, which she's pro at but is still very nervous and anxious while I'm doing it.

We've been sticking to much smaller circles lately and working more on walk and trot transitions and staying calm and not letting her lean on me (my aunt's suggestion was actually to ask for the walk when she started leaning, same sort of idea as a change of direction, but just to re-focus her). We'd been going fantastic, until the latest whole slew of problems at the old barn had her going LOCO again - we tried to lunge her for the vet and it was just me being forced to run her into a wall to stop her from hurting herself over and over again.

I think for the most part, I'm passing *most* of this is off as a TRULY awful experience for her at the old barn. I know she's prone to temper tantrums, but I think this was her reaching her limit on how she was being treated and going ENOUGH. Aside from the one year I had her at Shay-las moms, she's spent 3 of her 4 years being locked in a stall/tiny enclosure and being mistreated by humans. :?

I guess I really can't blame her all that much!


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