# Critique Cowboy jumping



## lubylol

These will be videos of Jordyn, Lexi and me jumping him...diregard the riders because we all have our faults. I just want your guy's crituque on him, and what he'd be good for. 

I originally wanted to do eventing, which is showjumping, cross country, then dressage...then figured he wouldn't be very good with cross country because if his jumping. Jordyn suggested doing hunters, and I'm alright with that. 

So give me your input on him and what not. I'l label the riders when I post the videos. Thanks 

Jordyn:
























 

Lexi:




Lexi and Cowboy 2 - YouTube








 
Meee:




Jumping this jump for the first time  - YouTube


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## lubylol

Ohh there's like 2 videos that didn't turn into thumbnails, please watch them!! Thanks everybody


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## Ray MacDonald

I think he would make a great hunter! Why not cross country too?

Fairly even stride, in one of the videos you didn't regulate his stride so he tried to add one in but couldn't. Has VERY nice, neat front legs.


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## maura

I see a sweet, willing, reasonably athletic horse making a good effort and jumping in reasonable, safe form. 

I can't really evalaute jumping form from any of these videos, since the distances are a mixed bag. I don't see, in any of the videos, see the sort of exemplary form/tight front end over fences that screams "hunter ring."

I'm curious about your comment that he


> he wouldn't be very good with cross country because if his jumping.


Not sure what that means, I don't see anything that woudl prevent him from doing cross country, or what makes him more suitable for hunters than eventing? He looks like a great lower level eventing prospect to me. 

Two other comments: regardless of the video labels, I didn't see any 3'6" fences. Perhaps you all need to measure your fences? I also wish the fences were constucted a little more safely; set and jumped in the correct direction, with substantial rails and ground lines.


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## lubylol

Ray MacDonald said:


> I think he would make a great hunter! Why not cross country too?
> 
> Fairly even stride, in one of the videos you didn't regulate his stride so he tried to add one in but couldn't. Has VERY nice, neat front legs.


I would LOVE LOVE LOVEE to do cross country with him, but he has a habit of refusing jumps..and I'm just way too lazy to work him through the tough jumps *that's a bad thing in the horse world lololol...* he does fine with these jumps, but when it comes to like cross country type jumps, excluding logs, he doesn't wanna jump them lol.

And he's such a cute jumper and saves my butt a lot..he'd rather take a long spot than chip in, and I love him for that lol. 

And trust me, his knees weren't like that in the beginning..lots of hard work with gymnastics and bounces..he hated me for a while there


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## lubylol

maura said:


> Two other comments: regardless of the video labels, I didn't see any 3'6" fences. Perhaps you all need to measure your fences? I also wish the fences were constucted a little more safely; set and jumped in the correct direction, with substantial rails and ground lines.


The jump was 3'6" we even measured it, and we have other videos of us jumping 3'9" lol. And I don't understand with what you mean jumps more safely..I think the standards and jumps are fine, and most of them were in the correct direction.......and the ground rails are fine..  please elaborate !

EDIT** I just noticed Lexi jumped the little makeshift oxer, with the buckets..because if we jump him the other direction he turns around right after and you fall off, and Lexi is sorta a beginner, first time riding Cowboy, and I didn't wanna risk her falling off of him. I was however jumping Butterfly correctly over it.


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## Endiku

Ray MacDonald said:


> I think he would make a great hunter! Why not cross country too?
> 
> Fairly even stride, in one of the videos you didn't regulate his stride so he tried to add one in but couldn't. Has VERY nice, neat front legs.


It may also be because of the fairly severe roach that he has to his back. I agree with lubylol that he'd probably be better off jumping low level hunters, rather than cross country, but for his health- rather than because he refuses all of the time with those types of jump.


Lubylol- I see potiential, but I'd advise working at getting him to take off from the correct point. It seems like he tends to take off early, which in the end can make him look a bit sloppy as he tries to clear the jump. If you can rate him and get him going at an even trot before takeof- and count the strides to the jump, I think you'll both be better off.

And while I know you said not to critique the riders, you might want to ask Jordyn to give him more release. Looks like she popped him in the mouth a few times and that can lead to a sour horse.


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## bubba13

Now I don't know much about jumping, but on some of those films he looks disengaged in the hind and bunny-hoppy after landing....is that due to his back?


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## lubylol

His roach does not affect his riding...the vet cleared him for jumping...

And yes for some reason when Jordyn releases she always looks like that, but not on any other horse...I think it's the way Cowboy puts his head up after jumping.


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## maura

Several of the videos show fences with no ground lines whatsoever, ones with ground lines have them rolled to *under* the fence, inside the first element of the fence. The purpose of a ground line is to help the horse see the base of the fence and judge the take off point; a rail under the fence, or behind the first element, creates a false ground line and is likely to trick the horse into jumping too close. 

In the video "Lexie and Cowboy 1" the rider is jumping the makeshift oxer backwards, with the higher element in the front. 

I greatly dislike the skinny, hollow PVC rails. They're hard for the horse to see, tend to fly up and/or shatter when hit, rather than dropping straight to the ground like a solid wood rail.


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## MoodIndigo

Endiku said:


> Lubylol- I see potiential, but I'd advise working at getting him to take off from the correct point. It seems like he tends to take off early, which in the end can make him look a bit sloppy as he tries to clear the jump.


Okay, I see what you're saying, and you're right for the most part, but you have to look at rider error before the horse error. He's only doing what he's taught. Each of the girls AT LEAST once, I saw getting WAYWAYWAY ahead of him.

Girls- You need to practice waiting for your horses. Getting ahead is not a good habit to have. Your horse is SOOO honest for taking all those fences with all the extra weight your adding when you jump up the neck.

Love the horse though.

I also agree with maura 500%
The rails you're using are very flimsy, and are EASILY caught under the horses legs when knocked, causing easy injury to horse or rider. I did honestly cringe at your jumps a little bit. Lol. The standards are fine, but please get heavier poles.

Ps. Lubylol, you have a nice hunter form over jumps.


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## lubylol

Maura; oh oh oh I get what you mean. I rarely use groundlines anyways and just tend to use whatever is there.

MI; thanks for the compliment. Most of the poles are wood, they are all the painted ones, and we have a few pvc poles do. We normally use them for groundpoles but when we have a big course set up like that we usually run low on jumping poles so we use them. I've never had a problem with them, never had them shattered when the horse knocked them, or got caught in them. My old barn used to use them too and they were wonderful. If I were a horse I'd rather get caught up in a light pvc pole that I can kick out of my legs easily, then a hard wood piece that would hurt.

I'll admit I'm not the best jumper. I stopped taking lessons after one or 2 english ones (rode western for 3 years) then got Cowboy, and got an english saddle with him lol. So I pretty much had to teach myself, or have Jordyn give me little lessons. I'm looking into trainers and coaches now for winter riding, so by spring me and Cowcow can be ready to show. We'll only be doing 4h shows though haha.


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## MoodIndigo

lubylol said:


> MI; thanks for the compliment. If I were a horse I'd rather get caught up in a light pvc pole that I can kick out of my legs easily, then a hard wood piece that would hurt.


You're welcome. Yeah, but it's that onnnnneee time that something happens. I've seen a really nasty fall involving PVC. I'd always rather be safe than sorry.

Okay, maybe PVC doesn't hurt, but why wouldn't you want them to hurt.. When it doesn't hurt the horses legs to knock a rail, don't you think it would make sense for the horse to just knock them all the time? Why put in the extra effort if it doesn't hurt to be lazy? You can easily teach a horse to start dropping rails without hard poles. That also creates a danger, because now your horse isn't picking up his feet and could trip or fall. That's why we wear boots to protect our horses legs.


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## lubylol

If he was knocking poles enough times for the chance of them to break, I wouldn't be jumping him as high, and if it got to the point he still wouldn't pick up his feet I would jump him at all...


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## Cinnys Whinny

I agree with what has been said, and I know you mostly want the horse critiqued. He looks very willing and honest to me. You say he has a habit of refusing and your jump set up has a LOT to do with this. The practice of not using ground lines is VERY dangerous to you and your horse, and this horse IMO is too good and honest to mess up because we were too lazy to use appropriate ground lines. If you watch even cross country and upper level ring jumping you will see that all jumps will have ground lines or an appropriate place for a horse to center and judge himself. 

A horse refuses jumps mainly out of lack of confidence. You take away ground lines, you take away your horse's confidence. You then put "okay" riders on who are not quite where they could be which causes a horse to be off balance or uncertain of his rider and you take away more confidence. The sharp turn after jumping a certain jump the correct direction probably has a reason as well, you need to find the reason he does it and fix it, and jumping it backwards isn't really a fix and you would never get away with it on any jumping course. He doesn't feel safe going over it and he's trying to tell you it's hard for him. He does it because he is so obedient and honest but it's hard for him for some reason and he is saying "don't make me do that."

The horse is lovely. The horse is willing. The horse has nice form. The horse has great potential. Fix anything that could take away his confidence and you are going to have a horse that others will be jealous of.


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## lubylol

Thank you thank you thank you ^^^^^^


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## maura

> If he was knocking poles enough times for the chance of them to break, I wouldn't be jumping him as high,


Didn't you have the YouTube video posted of him repeatedly crashing through a fence?


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## lubylol

maura said:


> Didn't you have the YouTube video posted of him repeatedly crashing through a fence?


Not repeatedly, it was like once or twice....and we don't normally jump him that high that's why we didn't lower it, we were trying to see how how he would go...that's why we normally only jump 2'6" on a good day lol


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## bsms

Maybe it is just me, but I have a hard time evaluating ANYTHING from a 3 second video.



lubylol said:


> The jump was 3'6" we even measured it, and we have other videos of us jumping 3'9" lol...


Also, I did a freeze frame on your 3'6" jump. If the jump is 3'6", then you are at least 8 feet tall. And your horse easily hits 24 hands at the withers...



















I don't know about the horse, but I suggest a career in politics for the rider.


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## sarahkgamble

I think you and Cowboy have great potential as a pair in the hunter ring. He looks extremely willing and that he enjoys jumping. However, I really don't like how some of the videos don't show him landing and leaving the jump, they cut off with his back legs still finishing the jump. 

I'm not a big jumper anymore, but I can tell you have a very good boy there. Use the ground poles for safety reasons though, and to help him know when to take off because it looked to me like he took off early quite a few times. 

Overall, for someone who hasn't taken English lessons and rode Western for 3 years, you're doing a great job with him and I can tell you guys will have a successful future together as long as you properly train him for jumping.  Good luck!


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## lubylol

Thanks Sarah. I'll set up the jumps into a bunch of bounces to get him back in his mojo lol. And I can't wait for our future, I can see it now, blue ribbons everywhere 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch

Well, since you did post this in the horse conformation critique, I worry that the landings weren't videoed because he was having problems there. On a few of the brief videos, it seemed that he had trouble bringing his right hind forward to canter off. Is he totally sound? I am worried that he doesn't seem to be.


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## bubba13

That's what I see, Allison, but I don't know enough about jumping to make an accurate judgment between what is normal, what is caused by lack of skill, and what is caused by unsoundness. But on the clips where the landing was shown, he looked uncomfortable and disengaged to me.


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## maura

Please consider that he might prefer long spots to his fences because they're more comfortable for his back and hind end; and that bounces might be physically difficult or even painful for him.


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## lubylol

There's no reason the landings weren't taped.....my camera will cut out like 2 or 3 seconds and it really bothers me... ._.

I know his limits and if he doesn't like doing something, whether it be because of his stubbornish, or pain, he will throw a big buck.

Please listen to when I say *HIS ROACH DOES NOT CAUSE HIM PAIN.* :evil:


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## bubba13

Luby, you absolutely, positively do not know that for a fact. He stands and moves like a horse in pain. You've had exactly one vet look at him, and it wasn't the most thorough of examinations. I know we've been through this a hundred and one times, but until he is thoroughly vetted by an actual lameness specialist, who knows far more about this sort of thing than the average equine/general veterinarian, I'm going to continue to believe what my eyes are telling me. Imagine if your own back looked like that....do you think it would feel good? I have a mild case of lordosis in my lower back, which is basically the reverse of a roach, and I am always in some pain, and it wrecks my posture and makes me a very stiff and defensive mover....


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## Allison Finch

OP, all I can tell you is that he is not stepping forward after landing as I would see in most horses. He seems to be pulling himself along and not reengaging his haunch afterwards. I am not suggesting what is causing it. Only saying it is not normal movement, IME.


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## reveriesgirly

For the first "freeze framed" video, i was standing on barrels so the jump doesnt look as high. It was definentally 3'6. There is no reason to lie about that.


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## bsms

reveriesgirly said:


> For the first "freeze framed" video, i was standing on barrels so the jump doesnt look as high. It was definentally 3'6. There is no reason to lie about that.


Compare the size of the jump to the horse & rider. If that is a 3'6" jump, then the rider has a future in the WNBA.


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## lubylol

bsms said:


> Compare the size of the jump to the horse & rider. If that is a 3'6" jump, then the rider has a future in the WNBA.


I don't understand why you're questioning this, it clearly shows it's below his butt, and cowboy is about 16h, and that would be around 3ft-4ft. And the white jump right next to it is about 2'6" Those white standards have measurements written on them.


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## reveriesgirly

I also dont understand why cowboys roached back has to be brought up in EVERY SINGLE THREAD. He isnt in pain.


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## Allison Finch

Well, the unpainted standards look like four foot standards and the White are five foot at the most (Look at them compared to the rider....How tall is she?). Seems like both measurements may be a bit off.

I am not saying you are purposely misleading, only that the markings may have been made incorrectly.


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## reveriesgirly

...im pretty sure they were 3'6.


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## lubylol

Allison Finch said:


> Well, the unpainted standards look like four foot standards and the White are five foot at the most (Look at them compared to the rider....How tall is she?).


I'm pretty sure the unpainted ones are 4ft and the white ones are 5ft, and when we had the jump at 3'9" it was almost at the tippy top, and 3'6" was just below. I'm I'm 5'7" and Jordyn is like 5'5" or 5'6"


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## Golden Horse

reveriesgirly said:


> I also dont understand why cowboys roached back has to be brought up in EVERY SINGLE THREAD. He isnt in pain.



And there are lots of us that don't understand why people insist on turning a horse with such a roached back into a jumper of all things, especially if he has to spend hours being jumped again and again by 3 different people. OK I don't know if he is ridden for hours, but when those videos were posted that was my first thought

Cowboy looks to me that he is often uncomfortable or in pain, and it just saddens me to see him being used like this.


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## bsms

Here is another one for anyone who cares to see for themselves:










Again, compare the jump to the horse, rider, and person at the jump. Either y'all are darn tall, or that is not a 3'6" jump.


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## bsms

lubylol said:


> I'm pretty sure the unpainted ones are 4ft and the white ones are 5ft...


If the unpainted ones are 4' (believable), then the jump is probably 2'6".


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## lubylol

I trust my vet that gave cowboy an exam. She wouldn't have said go ahead and jump, go cross country, etc if he was in any pain. He was a little sore in his left hip to compinsate for his roach, but she said a week or two of no jump and strictly trotting would help. I did the pen test on him myself and he was in no more pain. We don't jump him hard and long, only at the end of our rides. Those videos are about 6 days worth of videos. And to bsms the girl standing on the jump is short, and is on a 2'6" jump. And I think that was a 3'3" video frame. But the one of me jumping is definitely 3'6"


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## lubylol

Why would we make a big deal out of a 2'6" jump........? We jump that on a regular basis, on any horse.


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## reveriesgirly

..... Cowboy is not ridden for hours, probably 3 hours a week. He is not a jumper of all things, and normally never gets jumped higher then 2'9. That jump was definentally not 2'6. The white jump was set at 2'6. The girl was standing on a 2'6 jump. The jump cowboy was jumping was NOT 2'6.


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## bsms

I guess I'll trust my lying eyes...the jump is set at the same level in each picture, just over halfway up the unpainted posts. If those are 4' posts, then it is set about 2'6". And that would match with the size of the people and horse.


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## Golden Horse

I'll trust your lying eyes as well:wink:


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## amp23

Although the height of the jumps isnt THAT big of a deal, I also see a horse in pain. I would have a specialist look at him to see what is truly the problem. I've seen this come up a lot and I know you hate that, but you're in denial about the fact that something is CLEARLY off with him. Just because ONE vet say he's okay to jump does not mean you should. He has a very severe rosy back and I don't think he should be jumped for soundness reasons, although he does seem like a very honest and willing horse.


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## Quixotic

In regards to jump size - if that was truly a 3'6" jump on a 4' standard, that would leave only 6" between the pole & the top of the standard. There is much more space than that. It also does not look an entire foot taller than the jump next to it. I would guestimate the fence to be about 2'9", but no taller than 3'. The other jump really looks to be more about 2'3" (I even compared it to pics I have of myself doing a 2'3" course with my boy at a show, & they look the same height). I wouldn't be surprised if it was labelled incorrectly by whoever made it, that happens sometimes.

As others have said, it is very difficult to judge such short videos, especially when some of them cut out before a jump is completed. However, I did notice that his stride does not seem very consistent during his approaches, and he seems to be digging down onto his forehand in order to jump, instead of really rocking back and using his hindquarters to power himself over the fences. It would be really helpful if you could have a dressage mindset while you jump - keep him collected & consistent. A flatwork exercise that my trainer has me do with my boy (who is still a bit green) when he doesn't want to stay engaged in his hind end is to ask him to come round while I trot him at a steady but forward pace down the long side of the arena, then turn halfway down the short side & head back towards the long side that I just came down in a sort of half-circle, slowly straightening him out & leg-yielding him the rest of the way into the rail to complete the change of direction. Then repeat down each long side. I'm not sure if that makes sense how I explained it, but it really helps the horse to want to stay rocked back and engaged in his hind end, which in turn will help him give you a much better jump. Those long-jumps that he gave your friend in some of those videos are probably a result of him coming at them at a long, uneven pace & just kind of launching himself at the jumps. Rocking him back will help to fix that. It's also helpful to use your body to give him little half-halts (using a combination of thrusting your shoulders back to tell him to pay attention & rock back, plus a squeeze with your legs to keep him forward) through the turns and several strides before the jumps. Also, try to keep him in a consistent rhythm throughout your entire jump round (no matter if you're doing just one fence or a whole course) by counting a steady "one two, one two, one two" during your whole ride as he is cantering (or control his pace with your post if you are trotting him). If you feel him try to slow down or speed up at all, correct him so that he stays on pace. This will make it much easier to get the distances that you want, and he should give you jumps that are consistently nicer.


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## lubylol

I mean I guess you guys can rant on and on about how his roach causes his pain, and how we're lying about the jump. I'm about to just quit horse forum because of you know it alls always trying to prove theirselves right. No where in this post did I ask for judgement on the jump and to get flamed by it. No where in this post did I ask about whether cowboy is in pain. I know about his roach. I know it's pretty bad. But look at other horses who have a roach and see how thier jumping. In my mind Cowboy's roach isn't that bad at all, but for all of you with those perfect horses it seems like a big deal. Have you guys ever heard about google images? Those horses have roaches the size of anatartica, and you're sitting here complaining about his little roach.

If his roach caused him any pain I would not jump him. I love that horse too much. Stop flaming me on his roach and how you swear it causes him pain. Have you ever met him in real life? No. Have you ever ridden him in real life? That's also a no, so stop saying you know he's in pain just by watching some videos. 

All I wanted was some critique and if he would make an honest hunter pony or eventing type horse.


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## bubba13

This is not a minor roach.

















_(and notice how he splays his hind legs out to steady himself--this is a defensive posture that speaks to pain higher-up in the body)_ 

THIS is a minor roach.


















You get mad and say we're all know-it-alls, and we _have_ been through this time and time again. It seems like we're picking at you, but nope, we just have the welfare of the horse in mind. Your horse looks, stands, and moves like an animal in pain. Common sense and medical/physiological/veterinary knowledge would tell you that that horse is in pain. You've had one very brief and less-than-thorough veterinary exam, where your vet even acknowledged that your horse hurt, but you somehow think that this clears Cowboy, not just for riding, but for competition. It doesn't. You've got to stop being selfish and look at the best interests of the horse. These aren't just armchair jockeys talking to you; these are experienced horsepeople.

You say there are tons of other severely roach-backed horses jumping....where? Show me. Are they sound? I've never seen a horse as misshapen as Cowboy even be cleared by a vet for light riding, so the fact that you are even able to do that amazes me. Be happy with what you've got.

My horses aren't "perfect." Far from it. All have conformation flaws, some of which have caused soundness issues. I have to accept their limitations or risk hurting them worse. It's not worth that. Nothing is. So, out of my responsibility to mind the animal's welfare, I don't push them into physically demanding tasks.

And beyond the roach, someone else brought up a good point. This horse has a heart of gold, but he's not physically built to withstand the rigors of what you're asking him to do. He's bred to be a halter horse--in otherwise, he's supposed to stand still and look pretty. Halter horses these days, unfortunately, are not bred for athleticism, soundness, or longevity. Their legs just can't take much of a pounding.

Cowboy is a remarkable horse, no doubt, for tolerating so much. A horse with heart like that would die for its owner, were it asked. I implore you--don't take advantage.


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## Goosey

The way I see it, you can't really make an adequate critique without taking in ALL factors...This means people critiquing your horses roach. TBH, I have never seen any roach backs quite as severe as Cowboy's. I agree with everything Bubba has posted. You might not have asked if Cowboy was in pain but you asked for a critique, and thats what the majority of people posting can see.


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## bsms

lubylol said:


> ...No where in this post did I ask for judgement on the jump and to get flamed by it. No where in this post did I ask about whether cowboy is in pain...Stop flaming me on his roach and how you swear it causes him pain...All I wanted was some critique and if he would make an honest hunter pony or eventing type horse.


"if he would make an honest hunter pony or eventing type horse"

No. He seems to have a great attitude, but there isn't much sign he has a future in eventing.

As for flaming - you haven't been. If I were totally honest in expressing my opinion, I'd be suspended. But if you want an honest opinion from folks, you need to set them up to give you one. 3" clips & questionable heights don't make detailed and fully informed opinions possible.

However, based on the clips, lots of experienced people are saying it looks like your horse has a wonderful heart, but finds jumping painful.

bubba13 wrote, " This horse has a heart of gold, but he's not physically built to withstand the rigors of what you're asking him to do...Cowboy is a remarkable horse, no doubt, for tolerating so much. A horse with heart like that would die for its owner, were it asked. I implore you--don't take advantage."

I agree. Maybe you do not. But if you ask the question, please do not complain when you get some answers you do not like.

You and your friends seem to have some natural ability. If you want to progress, you will need to listen to advice. That is true of everyone. We only improve when we take an honest look at our current ability, and listen to honest evaluations of what is needed to improve.

Sometimes with horses, you have to love them for what they are, not for what they can never be. You are asking Cowboy to be something he will never be, IMHO.


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## Golden Horse

bsms said:


> Sometimes with horses, you have to love them for what they are, not for what they can never be. You are asking Cowboy to be something he will never be, IMHO.


Very very true


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## Endiku

Lubylol, does he really _need_ to jump? I'm sure he'd be a lovely gymkhana type horse (not sure the age/height limits in your area, but it's worth a try) or flat-class horse. You could do some english pleasure, w-t-c, lower level dressage, fun classes such as costume/relay races/team games, trail riding, parades, showmanship...the list these days is endless.

I know it's hard to have an animal who can't do what you want them to do. It's hard to come to terms with the fact that some things just shouldn't happen. But if you want Cowboy to stay sound (if he's even sound _now_) you really need to look at your options and choose something else for him to do. It's not the end of the world if he can't jump, be glad he can be ridden at all. But if you want to preserve him, you really need to just open your mind a little and listen to what we're trying to tell you. Take him to a specialist, or a chiropractor. They can tell you what damage is being done, and they can also help you make him feel better so that he can excell at another discipline. 

He's a noble horse to of done so much for you, and he's truely one in a million. But don't take advantage of his body, just because his mind is willing. It sounds to all of us like he's trying to gently tell you that he's hurting, and even if he just keeps on keeping on, it doesn't mean everything is perfect. Some horses will do anything for their riders, and I think he's one of them. But ultimately, that almost always ends up in a permanently lame, or, in some cases....dead, horses.

It's kind of like those stories about dogs that you hear from time to time. About how, when both the person and the dog is in jeprody, even if they're injured, or it will cause them pain (such as running into a burning house or dragging a hurt owner to safety) they'll just do it, without another thought as to what will happen to them, or whether or not it's safe.

Cowboy probably feels like when you're riding him up to a jump, you're asking him to keep you safe. And he does. Again, and again, and again, because he feels like he's helping or protecting you. Horses are herd oriented animals, and if he feels like you're a member of his herd, he's going to do _anything _to please you and keep you safe.

Do you really want to be asking him to do something, if there's even a chance that it's hurting him?

It's your horse, and it's your choice- I get that. But don't overlook what we're all saying. There is a reason that everyone is in agreement. There's something there, whether it's his back, or his legs, or his feet- that's just not _right._

It's kind of like, when you see an elderly person walk into, say, a store. And he's bent over, with a hand gingerly placed over his lower back, and taking tentative, measured step. You don't have to know him personally, or have even _met_ him before. You just know that he hurts. Somewhere. You don't know if it's artheritis, or scoliosis, or ostioporosis, but you know his back hurts. While at the same time, his grandchildren, who are with him all of the time, and are used to seeing the way he walks around- wouldn't even think twice about the way he moves. To them it's just 'oh, grandpa has always been that way' because he has. Atleast, since they've known him anyways. And they can't really tell if he's getting worse or not, because they're with him all of the time. Lots of grandmas and grandpas walk like that, so it must be normal. But it's not normal. And it takes a stranger to point that out.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I'm not trying to push you on the ground and stomp on you...I've done some pretty stupid stuff with horses in the time I've worked with them. It's easy to overlook something that you're used to seeing, and it's easy to just pull up your guard and not let anyone break through to you about what's going on. 

Whether we're doing it tactfully or not (and honestly, I do think that everyone is doing a beautiful job at remaining helpful and not harsh or sarcastic) we ARE trying to help you and cowboy both. No one likes to see a good horse go because of mishandling, or because of problems that could of been corrected early on. I'll even venture to say that a lot of people HAVE been the victims of this, and don't want to see you fall into the same hole. We're talking from experience, not bad will. 

Just, try to hear us out. For the sake of your horse, if no one else.


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## Faceman

You don't sound as if you have taken any anatomy and physiology, but one of the things you might want to do is do a google search on the biomechanics of horses jumping - there are a ton of articles out there, some technical, and some written in everyday language. Not only might this illustrate and quantify for you the stress a horse undergoes when jumping, but it is really a good education for all of us to see what we put our horses' bodies through when we use them to our purpose...


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## DraftXDressage

This thread makes me sad.


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## amp23

DraftXDressage, I completely agree. You can't critique without taking into consideration exertion, such as breed, height, age, conformation flaws, training flaws, ANYTHING. His flaw is his roach back, which most obviously causes him pain, but if you have always seen him that way you may not notice it. We're not being rude or anything, we just want what's best for you and cowboy.


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## Sunny

"A minor roach"?

Honestly, looking at Cowboy's back makes me sick to my stomach. It makes me cringe.

That's all I have to say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blush

amp23 said:


> DraftXDressage, I completely agree. You can't critique without taking into consideration exertion, such as breed, height, age, conformation flaws, training flaws, ANYTHING. His flaw is his roach back, which most obviously causes him pain, but if you have always seen him that way you may not notice it. We're not being rude or anything, we just want what's best for you and cowboy.


Agreed. 
And not to mention you posted this in the *Horse Conformation Critique* section. As in you want us to critque his conformation. His roach is a *major conformation flaw* that needs to be addressed. If you didnt want a critique on his *conformation*, don't post here then.


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## lubylol

Well when I posted this, I wanted opinions. I did not want know it alls saying he's in pain. God I'm done with this thread bye
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunny

You got the opinions you asked for.

This is a forum. If you don't want to hear what others have to say, DON'T POST ANYTHING.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

lubylol said:


> Well when I posted this, I wanted opinions. I did not want know it alls saying he's in pain. God I'm done with this thread bye
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



:?: Well it's my opinion that he is in pain, so what's the issue?


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## amp23

Thank you, GH. Our opinions are based on what's of the best interest of the horse. Why post if you're not willing to listen to those opinons? We're all on here to gain more knowledge and hear others opinions on things. lubylol, we've all pointed out how willing Cowboy is and the fact that he seems like a great horse. Is that not something positive? We've all just concerned with the fact that he does not look comfortable jumping. Eventually we all have to face putting our horses' needs before our needs or wants--and your horse needs to not be jumping.


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## Golden Horse

Amp, I think the OP bailed, which is such a shame.

Cowboy shows as well every indication of being a beautiful soul, a loyal friend and a level headed partner, and such things are beyond price.

IF you were showing pics of him being used in a walk trot situation, if he belonged to an older, small frail person who wanted a level headed trail mount, we would all say, good on both of them. As a lead rein mount to let little kiddies have their first safe walks on a good old horse, then once again a perfect match.

What is frustrating is that you are lucky beyond all belief to have one of the kind souls of the horse world, and you choose to take advantage of that nature, rather than looking at HIM and saying what is best for HIM.

Believe me, whatever anger and frustration that you feel reading our responses, is magnified may times at this end, where so many people just truly don't understand why you don't get it.


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## amp23

I think so too, but you're completely right about everything you said. He seems like such a great horse. My own horse lately I've had to face cutting back on how much and how hard we ride, he is getting older and is starting to get arthritis. You just have to put your horses needs above your own, and it's hard for anyone, including me.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Golden Horse said:


> Amp, I think the OP bailed, which is such a shame.
> 
> Cowboy shows as well every indication of being a beautiful soul, a loyal friend and a level headed partner, and such things are beyond price.
> 
> IF you were showing pics of him being used in a walk trot situation, if he belonged to an older, small frail person who wanted a level headed trail mount, we would all say, good on both of them. As a lead rein mount to let little kiddies have their first safe walks on a good old horse, then once again a perfect match.
> 
> What is frustrating is that you are lucky beyond all belief to have one of the kind souls of the horse world, and you choose to take advantage of that nature, rather than looking at HIM and saying what is best for HIM.
> 
> Believe me, whatever anger and frustration that you feel reading our responses, is magnified may times at this end, where so many people just truly don't understand why you don't get it.


I very much agree GH. I own several "oldies" and there will come a day when they will have to be retired completely but that's part of horse ownership. My old man would still happily jump, run speed events or go to a penning, but with 30 knocking on the door that would be wrong of me to ask of him. It's about knowing their limitations and doing right by them. 

I'd see no problem at all with him being used lightly for flat work. The exercise would more than likely be beneficial but not so much to be detrimental, which is surely what jumping will do. He may not act in pain now, but years down the road is when the impact will be seen. 

If he were mine, he'd be doing walk/trot and taking care of little one's with his saint disposition. I'd certainly not push him or take advantage of his willingness in an effort to keep him happy & sound for as long as possible. 

OP, if you do read this, don't get offended by the posts and statements. Everyone is legitimately putting Cowboy's best interests at heart.


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## Faceman

That's one of the wonderful, albeit sad, things about a horse...it will injure or literally kill itself if asked, and man has a nasty habit of taking advantage of that...not to say the OP is taking it that far, of course.**see note 1 

It is human nature for man to seek and relish power, and for many of us the power to control a 1200 pound animal is gratifying and a bit exhilarating, however it is prudent to use that power wisely...



**note 1...With that being said, there are exceptions - especially among Appys. Casper has told me on several occasions he is not "that kind of horse". When pushed too far he stops and requests a family meeting...


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## Alwaysbehind

Cinnys Whinny said:


> A horse refuses jumps mainly out of lack of confidence.


Or because the pain is such that they can not ignore it in that situation.


From the videos, Cowboy does not scream hunter to me. Not at all. 

I do agree that he is a kind soul.


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## New_image

This again? There are plenty of sound riding horses in the world, this just makes me sad. You can get five of them for free if you look for 26 seconds. I'm not entirely sure why I even bothered looking at this thread.
As for a critique I think the freeze frames show you what you need to know about your jumping.


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## Oxer

just to be super clear... the attached pic is the very first time i had ever jumped "big" a couple years ago. 3'6" in front, 3'9" in back and i made my trainer tape measure it to be sure. (5 foot standards)
3'6" is big. noticeably so. 

I would also like to thank Bubba for posting those pictures. I haven't ever seen something like that. interesting to be able to see it so clearly! I myself, don't think i would jump a horse with a back like that. eeek!


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## Tazzie

Wow. This thread makes me sad  Why can't he just be a lovely trail horse instead of a jumper? A horse with that kind of heart would make an amazing one. And make do competitive trails? Not sure what is all asked there since I do Dressage, but surely it wouldn't be as taxing as jumping.


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## sarahkgamble

Before this thread, I had never encountered or heard of a horse having a roach back. And, as I've said before, I'm not a big jumper because my horse isn't trained for that yet and not many horses at my barn are jumpers at all. 

When I critiqued this before, I commented only on his obvious willingness to jump, and didn't take the roach into consideration (since I didn't know what it was). However, once I took a second look at the videos, I still noticed a horse with the will to jump, but on the few videos with landings, I did notice he seemed sort of stiff in his hind end and it was more difficult for him to move off from the jumps. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my prior critique was wrong and not well justified considering all things weren't considered and that I've learned something new (as I have been daily since joining the forum)!


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## Alwaysbehind

Sarah, you were not wrong in saying he jumping willingly in those videos. He jumps because he is a good horse who is trying his best to please. Willing and doing it well and correct can be polar opposites too.

That in no way means he should be jumping.


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## deise

hes got a lovely pop!


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## bsms

^^But what a good heart he has!


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## deise

^^^^i totally agree! lucky person who owns him!


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