# Paint vs Pinto



## SunnyDraco

I am right with you. I was talking to one of my aunts two months ago about the horses she was selling. She had bred some mares years ago and was telling me about their sires. She told me that one of the sires was a pinto that was half paint, half quarter horse. Yeah, that makes him a paint. Then she told me that the sire of her other gelding was a "pintabian", but was half Arab, half paint. Not a pintabian, and corrected her that her gelding out of a pinto grade mare was also not a pintabian like she thought he was. Apparently she had thought that a pinto that had a bit of arabian would be considered a pintabian. In reality, pintabians are almost pure arabs (I think they are over 99% ). So I am annoyed when paints and pintos are used incorrectly and half or quarter arabs are called pintabians. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## redape49

Zada2011 said:


> Ok so we used to breed paints so whenever I see someone call a pinto a paint when it is not a paint I always scream in my head.
> 
> What is a Paint?
> 
> A paint horse is a breed of horse that can be any combination on thoroughbred and quarter horse bloodlines. Note that not all registered paint horses are pinto either, many can end up solid without a speck of white on them. For a horse to be a paint it must be either be a thoroughbred or a quarter horse that is a pinto, or a horse with at least one registered paint parent. A paint can also have a parent that is a registered quarter horse of thoroughbred and another that is a paint, and still be registered as a paint.
> 
> What is a Pinto?
> 
> A pinto is a horse that have large patches of white on their body with any other color horses can be. A pinto horse can be any breed of horse because pinto is a color and not a breed with defined genetic background. Yes many paints are also pintos, however not all paints are pinto, and not all pintos are paints.
> 
> So it always drives me nuts when I read a description like. "Black and white paint saddlebred for sale." or something of the similar.
> 
> So random color lessons with Zada.


Well reading that made my head spin hahaha I'm going to have to sit down and read this when I'm not in the middle of doing yard work hahahaha great info tho!


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## Faceman

Zada2011 said:


> Ok so we used to breed paints so whenever I see someone call a pinto a paint when it is not a paint I always scream in my head.
> 
> What is a Paint?
> 
> A paint horse is a breed of horse that can be any combination on thoroughbred and quarter horse bloodlines. Note that not all registered paint horses are pinto either, many can end up solid without a speck of white on them. For a horse to be a paint it must be either be a thoroughbred or a quarter horse that is a pinto, or a horse with at least one registered paint parent. A paint can also have a parent that is a registered quarter horse of thoroughbred and another that is a paint, and still be registered as a paint.
> 
> What is a Pinto?
> 
> A pinto is a horse that have large patches of white on their body with any other color horses can be. A pinto horse can be any breed of horse because pinto is a color and not a breed with defined genetic background. Yes many paints are also pintos, however not all paints are pinto, and not all pintos are paints.
> 
> So it always drives me nuts when I read a description like. "Black and white paint saddlebred for sale." or something of the similar.
> 
> So random color lessons with Zada.


I'm not sure why you would "scream".

Remember if you would, that APHA is a relatively new organization - perhaps not by your standards, but I was 15 when it was formed, so it was not like it was back in the "olden days". In conjunction with that, Paints, at least as a "breed" are a very new breed, and in the opinion of some, myself included, are actually more of a "coming" breed than an established breed because they still permit outcrossing.

Yes, I think there is a distinction today between a Pinto and a Paint as far as terminology goes, however because the breed has not yet been stabilized, it shouldn't come as a surprise that many people still refer to Paints as Pintos.

While I think it is appropriate for Paint folks to point out the difference to educate people, I also think many of them are a bit thin skinned about the whole thing when it is perfectly reasonable and understandable why some people don't make the distinction or know the difference...


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## SunnyDraco

Faceman said:


> I'm not sure why you would "scream".
> 
> Remember if you would, that APHA is a relatively new organization - perhaps not by your standards, but I was 15 when it was formed, so it was not like it was back in the "olden days". In conjunction with that, Paints, at least as a "breed" are a very new breed, and in the opinion of some, myself included, are actually more of a "coming" breed than an established breed because they still permit outcrossing.
> 
> Yes, I think there is a distinction today between a Pinto and a Paint as far as terminology goes, however because the breed has not yet been stabilized, it shouldn't come as a surprise that many people still refer to Paints as Pintos.
> 
> While I think it is appropriate for Paint folks to point out the difference to educate people, I also think many of them are a bit thin skinned about the whole thing when it is perfectly reasonable and understandable why some people don't make the distinction or know the difference...


The problem isn't when a loudly colored paint is called a pinto. Pinto is the color pattern. But when someone has a pinto of some random breeding and they refer to them as paints, it is an incorrect statement. It is though they believe that any pinto is also a paint, like the term is interchangeable and mean the same thing. My mom's pinto mare's sire is a paint and her dam is an arabian, so she is just a pinto which refers only to her color pattern. PtHA has an open registry because it is a registry based on color pattern. APHA is a limited registry, it now requires both parents to be paint or at least one paint parent and the other parent must be quarter horse or thoroughbred. AQHA even allows some thoroughbreds in their books. So while paints can be pinto, any pinto you see isn't necessarily a paint.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lilruffian

I agree, it drives me nuts though really, it shouldn't lol!
What really makes me bonkers is when i run in to a 4-H'er or someone who thinks they _really_ know all about horses, and they try and convince others that the difference between a Paint and a Pinto is in the markings. Sorry guys, that's Tobiano & Overo!


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## Country Woman

I would love to see some pictures


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## NdAppy

Country Woman said:


> I would love to see some pictures


Of what?


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## SunnyDraco

Pictures? Like this?

Registered Paint, but isn't a pinto









Registered Pinto, but isn't a paint


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## Zada2011

Faceman said:


> I'm not sure why you would "scream".
> 
> Remember if you would, that APHA is a relatively new organization - perhaps not by your standards, but I was 15 when it was formed, so it was not like it was back in the "olden days". In conjunction with that, Paints, at least as a "breed" are a very new breed, and in the opinion of some, myself included, are actually more of a "coming" breed than an established breed because they still permit outcrossing.
> 
> Yes, I think there is a distinction today between a Pinto and a Paint as far as terminology goes, however because the breed has not yet been stabilized, it shouldn't come as a surprise that many people still refer to Paints as Pintos.
> 
> While I think it is appropriate for Paint folks to point out the difference to educate people, I also think many of them are a bit thin skinned about the whole thing when it is perfectly reasonable and understandable why some people don't make the distinction or know the difference...


Sunny Draco basically nailed the point I was trying to get across home. There is nothing wrong with calling a paint that is pinto colored a pinto. Pinto is the color pattern and that doesn't bother me at all. It's when someone calls a horse that is not a paint a paint because it has pinto coloration that it irritates me. (Basically you are looking at one of my biggest horse knowledge pet peeves.)

And as for paint horses, the breed's bloodlines are established to only allow the inclusion of quarter horse lines or thoroughbred lines. Which basically means you can register a foal that is QH x Paint, TB x Paint, or register a full bred quarter horse or thoroughbred that ends up with paint pattern markings.

Really it's kinda comparable to saying that a horse that is arabian x quarter horse is a freisian because it's black. It sounds ridiculous doesn't it? That and shouldn't logic dictate that if the color name has been around a lot longer than the breed name that people should be calling their pinto mustang, or any horse really a pinto rather than a recently established breed name? 

As I said it bothers me a lot because we used to breed them, and I don't like seeing them mixed up simply because people are too lazy to do a bit of research on things.


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## Chiilaa

I thought the Paint registry was partially closed now, and they don't register crop outs from JC or AQHA, only horses with at least one Paint registered parent?


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## NdAppy

Chiilaa is correct. Only horses with at least one APHA registered parent with an approved out cross can be registered APHA. The APHA no long accepts crop outs of JC or AQHA breedings.


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## waresbear

Registered Paint & Pinto


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## Kansas Spice Girl

SunnyDraco said:


> I am right with you. I was talking to one of my aunts two months ago about the horses she was selling. She had bred some mares years ago and was telling me about their sires. She told me that one of the sires was a pinto that was half paint, half quarter horse. Yeah, that makes him a paint. Then she told me that the sire of her other gelding was a "pintabian", but was half Arab, half paint. Not a pintabian, and corrected her that her gelding out of a pinto grade mare was also not a pintabian like she thought he was. Apparently she had thought that a pinto that had a bit of arabian would be considered a pintabian. In reality, pintabians are almost pure arabs (I think they are over 99% ). So I am annoyed when paints and pintos are used incorrectly and half or quarter arabs are called pintabians.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gahhh now i feel bad for calling your mare a paint in the other thread! I hate when my auto pilot kicks in :lol:

This is my very prego paint but not pinto  hehe


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Don't forget the Breedstock Pintos. This young lad is pure bred Arabian but also could be registered as Breedstock Pinto because his father is a double registered Arabian and Pinto, but this colt is the ONLY solid get of his father. He is NOT Pintabian. 










Pinto but not Paint, both could be National Show Horse registered if I desired, both could also be Half Saddlebred Registered if I desired, they are NOT 1/2 Arabians, though they have Arabian blood. Mom is 25%, colt is 12.5%. 










Pinto, 1/2 Arab (actually about 7/8 if I remember correctly, might even be 15/16), could be National Show Horse registered but NOT a Paint.


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## SunnyDraco

Kansas Spice Girl said:


> Gahhh now i feel bad for calling your mare a paint in the other thread! I hate when my auto pilot kicks in :lol:
> 
> This is my very prego paint but not pinto  hehe
> View attachment 87102


It's totally okay, she looks nothing like a part arab, totally took all her looks from her paint sire. Took riding lessons at an Arabian show barn with my mom, me on my totally solid paint (other than her star) and my mom on her half arab pinto. I actually found it very funny that I had several arab people think my solid paint was half arab and we had to tell them that the pinto a partbred was but mine wasn't. LOL!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman

Zada2011 said:


> Sunny Draco basically nailed the point I was trying to get across home. There is nothing wrong with calling a paint that is pinto colored a pinto. Pinto is the color pattern and that doesn't bother me at all. It's when someone calls a horse that is not a paint a paint because it has pinto coloration that it irritates me. (Basically you are looking at one of my biggest horse knowledge pet peeves.)
> 
> And as for paint horses, the breed's bloodlines are established to only allow the inclusion of quarter horse lines or thoroughbred lines. Which basically means you can register a foal that is QH x Paint, TB x Paint, or register a full bred quarter horse or thoroughbred that ends up with paint pattern markings.
> 
> Really it's kinda comparable to saying that a horse that is arabian x quarter horse is a freisian because it's black. It sounds ridiculous doesn't it? That and shouldn't logic dictate that if the color name has been around a lot longer than the breed name that people should be calling their pinto mustang, or any horse really a pinto rather than a recently established breed name?
> 
> As I said it bothers me a lot because we used to breed them, and I don't like seeing them mixed up simply because people are too lazy to do a bit of research on things.


I understand, and mostly agree.

The issue I have, and I am not at all trying to be inflammatory, is that many Paint folks make such a distinction that Paints are a "breed" and Pintos are not, when in fact neither is actually a breed.

We have had similar discussions about Appys, which are my "breed". The fact is, that because APHA permits outcrossing with both Quarterhorses and Thoroughbreds, the latter being a disimilar breed, and ApHC permits outcrossing with Arabs, Quarterhorses, and Thoroughbreds, neither Paints nor Appys (as registered by the registries) are "breeds". An APHA Paint, just as an ApHC Appy, can in fact have very little Paint or Appy blood. In other words, a half Paint/TB registered as a Paint can be crossed with a TB, resulting in a 1/4 Paint registered as a Paint...then the same in the next generation, resulting in a 1/8 Paint registered as a Paint...and so on. At what point does the folly of calling a horse a "Paint" or an "Appy" stop? 1/8th? 1/16th? 1/32, which is only 3% Paint?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but am just pointing out that registries thast permit outcrossing generation after generation are not truly either developing or maintaining a "breed". Quite the contrary, they are merging breeds together, thus are, quite frankly, color registries rather than breed registries.

Now with that being said, that does not mean that there are not Paint or Appy horses that could be considered a Paint or Appy breed. A Paint to Paint cross results in a Paint, just as an Appy to Appy cross results in an Appy - assuming of course it is done for several generations. 

But just because a horse is registered as a Paint by APHA does not necessarily mean it acutally is a Paint, any more than a horse registered by ApHC does not necessarily mean it is an Appy. A horse that is 3% Paint is NOT a Paint...period. And no papers or registration on Earth can make it a Paint. Same with Appys.

Until these registries stop permitting outcrosses - or as an alternative follow a similar outcross registration policy as AHA, neither will in reality be a "breed" registry. There is nothing instrinsically wrong with a registry that is not a breed registry, but for the registry or its membership to portray it as a "breed" registry is rather absurd...


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## NdAppy

To add to that Face, there are full blooded JC horses that are dual registered APHA. Papers do not make them an APHA horse. They are TBs with color...


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## Country Woman

Sunny Draco 
I like both of your pictures


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## Country Woman

waresbear said:


> Registered Paint & Pinto


Wow I love her markings on her


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## Elinejk

So, let me ask you this question. I understand the pinto / paint difference (pattern vs. breed). My horse is a pinto patterned appy grade horse. The vet, who owns and rides thoroughbreds thinks she has some thoroghbred in her. She said she may be "Appy, Paint, and Thoroghbred". I'm not sure why she would say "Paint" unless she thinks that she has some Paint breed - maybe the thoroghbred blood lined Paint? I'm assuming a vet would know that Paint is a breed, not a color pattern?


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## NdAppy

Just because a person is a vet doesn't mean they are all knowing. A lot of people see pinto pattern and automatically assume it is a paint of some sort.


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## joachim

Well, yes, Pinto is just a colour-pattern whereas Paint is a breed based on quarters and thoroughbred. If you look just for a coloured horse any pinto may be O-K. If you look for character there are many paint blood lines to choose from. In my eyes the colour just doesn’t matter, a strong character is the thing you may look for. 

Funny thing I have experienced. There were two or three 2-yearolds for sale and they look like Appies but were just pintos. No paper, no pedigree.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

From Pinto Horse Association's website:

*Registration*

Originally established primarily as a color registry, today the association has grown to offer four conformation types. In addition to the four types of horses, PtHA also has separate divisions for ponies, miniatures and utility horses.
Many spotted equines are eligible for registration with the Pinto Horse Association of America, Inc. Listed below are the qualificatons of a Pinto as well as a few restrictions.
*Bloodlines
*PtHA accepts *horses and utility horses* from many different outcross breeds including:

Accepted *horse* outcross breeds by type are:
Stock/Hunter Types
American Bashkir Curly Horse Registry
American Buckskin Registry Association
American Paint Horse Association
American Quarter Horse Association
American Warmblood Society
Belgian Warmblood Breeding Association
Hanoverian
Holsteiner
Hungarian Warmblood
International Buckskin Horse Association
International Curly Horse Association
Jockey Club [Thoroughbred]
North American Spotted Haflinger
Oldenburg
Oldenburg of America
Trakhener
United States Trotting Association [Standardbred]
Westphalian
Pleasure/Saddle Types
American Hackney Horse Society
American Morgan Horse Registry
American Saddlebred Horse Association
American Saddlebred Horse Association of Canada
Arabian Horse Registry
Canadian Arabian Horse Registry
Dutch Harness
Half Arabian Horse Registration
International Andalusian and Lusitano Horse Association
Missouri Fox Trotting Horse Breed Association
National Show Horse Registry
Paso Fino
Pleasure Saddle Horse Registry
Tennessee Walking Horse Breeders and Exhibitors Association
Accepted *Utility horse* outcross breeds are:
Gypsy and Drum Types
American Drum Horse Association
Gypsy Cob and Drum Horse Association
Gypsy Horse Association
Gypsy Horse Registry of America
Gypsy Vanner Horse Society
The Gypsy Cob Society (Ireland)
The Gypsy Cob Society (United Kingdom)
Accepted *pony *outcross breeds are:
Stock/Hunter Types
American Paint Pony Registry
American Quarter Pony Association
American Shetland Pony Club
Chinioteague Pony
Connemara
North American Spotted Haflinger
Welsh Pony Society of America
all recognized horse outcross breeds
Pleasure/Saddle Types
American Hackney Horse Society
American Shetland Pony Club
Missouri Foxtrotting Pony
Accepted *miniature* outcross breeders are:
American Miniature Horse Association
American Miniature Horse Registry
Gold Seal Miniature Horse Registry
International Miniature Horse Registry
World Class Miniature

PtHA can also register horse mares and geldings based on their color alone as well as any sex of ponies and minis.
The PtHA does not accept any horses with Appaloosa, draft or mule breeding and/or characteristics or known breeding within the previous four generations, except for utility classified horses.
Horse stallions cannot be registered unless _*both*_ parents are registered with PtHA or a PtHA approved outcross breed. Ponies and miniature stallions can be registered with undocumented parentage.
*Color 







*A Pinto horse must have four square inches of cumulative white in the qualifying zone and underlying pink skin or have documented color on outcross papers. The color requirement is modified with the size of the equine requiring only three square inches for ponies and two square inches for miniatures. 
The equines that do not meet the color requirement, but have at least two or more Pinto characteristics (blue eyes; leg white above the knee or hock; white or multi-colored hooves; collective white in the eligible zones, but not enough to qualify for color; pink skin) are registered Breeding Stock. If the equines are registered with approved outcross breeds but don't meet the color requirement, these equines can also be registered Breeding Stock. Breeding Stock Pintos are not allowed to participate in PtHA events unless specified by the event rules.
*New Color Rule Addition
*Approved in the spring 2009 by the Pinto Horse Association of America Inc. - Any horse, pony or miniature, currently registered with an approved outcross registry, with documented Pinto characteristics on the outcross papers, is eligible for registry with the PtHA.
In order to simplify the registration process for qualified Pintos, the PtHA registration department will begin evaluating applicants who are already registered with an approved outcross registry and who have documented color on the outcross papers. Documented color such as “Pinto markings,” “belly spots,” or “high leg white” will serve as qualification for PtHA registry in lieu of the required 4 square cumulative inches, provided that all other qualifications (i.e. appaloosa bloodline, mule or draft characteristics restrictions) are met. Undocumented animals and animals with no color documented on their outcross papers will still be required to meet the current PtHA color requirements. Photos are still required.
Examples include any horse accepted into the regular registry of the American Paint Horse Association, any miniature with registration papers that document "Pinto," or any horse registered with the Arabian Horse Association with a belly spot or high leg white documented on the registration papers.
If in doubt, please contact the PtHA Registration Department with any questions, [email protected] or (405) 491-0111.​


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