# over tightened nose bands



## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

YAY! It's about time an official body of some sort spoke up about this. I especially like this bit:



> "Restrictive tight nosebands can prevent the horse from displaying unwanted behaviours such as opening, gaping or crossing the jaw, and are enabling competitors to mask signs of tension which judges should penalise as evidence of inferior training.


Unfortunately I don't think there will be any kind of outcry from the public at the Olympics because the average person can't tell that the noseband is cranked shut. But the word "dressage" means "training," and these days it's anything but. It's about time people realized that.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I think anyone whom was doing it in the first place must of had a reason. Now is that reason valid? That's a whole different enchilada.

Personally, if the horse developed habits of crossing the jaw or gaping their mouth or having their tongue behind the bit, then something went awry in their training. They might have been pushed too hard and fast, were in rough hands, or maybe they just felt like evading due to lack of interest. Who knows.


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## Jumper12 (Feb 2, 2012)

This is a really interesting bit, I never new this was a problem but it makes sense! kind of makes me feel bad for using figure 8s and flashes but I dont have them over tightened so hopefully my horse isnt too stressed :/


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Jumper12 said:


> This is a really interesting bit, I never new this was a problem but it makes sense! kind of makes me feel bad for using figure 8s and flashes but I dont have them over tightened so hopefully my horse isnt too stressed :/


I use a crank noseband - everyone going to jump on me?
I hope not, because I certainly don't use it to 'crank' the jaw shut. I like the ease of the noseband, and because the bridle only had the crank option - but everything else about the bridle is exactly what I was looking for. 
Just because you use a certain type of noseband, absolutely does not mean, that you use to to jam the jaw shut. That is a big pet peeve of mine!


As someone has said above, it is very hard to police this issue. How tight is too tight? And will stewards at FEI sanctioned events or even just local events, have the right to tell competitors that their noseband is too tight, and to loosen it or be eliminated?


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## BCtazzie (Jun 7, 2011)

Kyaty, my bridle is the same. Again It's not cranked and I can still get fingers under it. The scary thing in my mind is the fact there is one that use an Allen key to tighten. how freak'n tight do you need it if you have use an allen key to tighten it???


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I haven't seen one that needs an Allen key to tighten.... are you able to post a link to show that? I'm curious and quite mortified at the same time!


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## Jumper12 (Feb 2, 2012)

Kayty, not sure why you quoted me?? I wasnt meaning to "jump on" anyone for using a certain type of noseband if thats what you were implying, I did not intend to come off that way!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

No no Jumper, sorry - I was just using it as an example, that you were worried about what type of noseband you are using. Because in the past people have got quite animated when they've seen a crank noseband on a horse, without even knowing if it is done up exceedingly tight or not.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

i had a trainer once, back in the day that told me to tighten the horses nose band super tight so that he wouldn't "chomp" on his bit. I chose instead, to change his bit. He was terribly over bitted and needed something a lot less than what he was going in. Problem solved. 
I'm at a hunter/jumper show barn currently... and the figure 8 bridle is commonly used simply for the way it looks. So there are plenty of otherwise lovely horses, going around with their flashes PAINFULLY tight. 
*sigh*


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## fromthismoment (Feb 17, 2012)

A few years ago I remember being at a hunter show. One girl had an nervous stressed out horse. Her solution to the problem was to try and force the nose band tighter. Needless to say it had no effect. There are so many good training methods out there that don't include forcing your horse to do something with the tack. I support noseband regulations.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

The upper level eventer that I was a working student for last summer always rode with her nosebands pulled as tight as they could go. When I would ride my own horse with a looser noseband, I would get yelled at for having "sloppy, improperly fitted tack".


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Kayty said:


> I use a crank noseband - everyone going to jump on me?
> I hope not, because I certainly don't use it to 'crank' the jaw shut. I like the ease of the noseband, and because the bridle only had the crank option - but everything else about the bridle is exactly what I was looking for.


 Dido to that. My favorite bridle (a Peter Wylde) has a crank noseband that I use simply because I like the look. Do I crank my horse's nose shut with it? Nope. I fit it like I would any other noseband.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Do we need a rule for every little thing on earth?

I think not.


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## BCtazzie (Jun 7, 2011)

mildot said:


> Do we need a rule for every little thing on earth?
> 
> I think not.


Rules for everything, no.

When the horses wealfare is pushed a side due to poor training and riders trying to take the easy way that the expense of the animal.

**** straight we do!!!

horses getting bone disformatity due to lazy people making it tight as they can so the judge can not see the horse with it's mouth wide open due to the amount of pressure being used to maintain the frame, is NOT what training is about.


I re-train bolters, buckers and rearers. What do all of these horses get when I ride them? loose ring snaffle, no nose band. I am not against nosebands that are fitted correct. Just when people try to hide their own poor training skills, I have a problem.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Mildot, if you're doing things right the rules shouldn't be that big of a deal. They're meant to get after those who cover up bad training with harsh bits and tight nosebands.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

The question really is, is this such a widespread problem that it needs its own rule?

For the record, I do not believe in any noseband tight enough that you cannot easily slip a couple of finger side by side in. And my horse is ridden in an eggbutt snaffle and simple cavesson.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

mildot said:


> The question really is, is this such a widespread problem that it needs its own rule?


Unfortunately, from what I've witnessed in the upper-level eventing world, I would say that yes, it is a huge problem. Not all ULR's are like this, of course, but I have witnessed SO MANY accomplished riders treat their competition animals like machines, with no regard to their actual comfort when it came to what equipment was used on them. It was all about getting ahead via the easiest shortcut possible.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

BCtazzie said:


> horses getting bone disformatity due to lazy people making it tight as they can so the judge can not see the horse with it's mouth wide open due to the amount of pressure being used to maintain the frame, is NOT what training is about.


Yes. When you use very restricting equipment, you're not testing the horse's and rider's abilities anymore, which is the whole purpose of competing.


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## hahaitslacey (Apr 21, 2009)

I'm happy that some light is being shed on this. It's sad though that there has to be rules made because people are willing to sacrifice their horse's welfare for a good round, etc.

I personally do not ride with a cavesson/noseband anymore, and when I did, I always made sure I could fit 2-3 fingers between. I know I wouldn't like having my mouth clamped shut, so why would I do it to my horse?


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

seems like this is backwards,
Judges stop giving points for actions caused by cruel devices. Paying lip service that you are against it, but not changing the scoring that leads to the devices is straight up hypocracey,
Sounds like all the TWH shows that claim to be against soring but judges encourage people to do it anyway by the way they judge.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Joe, it is difficult to deduct points in a dressage test for an overtight noseband. From a distance, you can't tell how tight it is. Unless the horse is showing clear resistance, in which case marks can be taken for resistance to the movement, and in the collectives for submission, the judge must score as they would with a horse in a loose noseband.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Joe, it is difficult to deduct points in a dressage test for an overtight noseband. From a distance, you can't tell how tight it is. Unless the horse is showing clear resistance, in which case marks can be taken for resistance to the movement, and in the collectives for submission, the judge must score as they would with a horse in a loose noseband.


While what you say is true, Joe's point is valid at least when it comes to the US Equestrian Federation's dressage rules. A horse with its tongue hanging out is going to get penalized, sometimes severely, under the submission portion of the collective marks. Why? I haven't a clue. I know there are horses that let their tongue out when they are happy and relaxed. But don't let the judge see that, so we have to clamp the jaw shut.



> DR116 2. Submission does not mean subordination, but an obedience revealing its presence by a constant attention, willingness and confidence in the whole behavior of the horse as well as by the harmony, lightness and ease it is displaying in the execution of the different movements. The degree of the submission is also demonstrated by the way the horse accepts the bit, with an elastic contact and a supple poll. Resistance to or evasion of the rider’s hand, being either “above the bit” or “behind the bit” demonstrate lack of submission. The main contact with the horse’s mouth must be through the snaffle bit.
> a. Putting out the tongue, keeping it above the bit or drawing it up altogether, as well as grinding the teeth or agitation of the tail, are mostly signs of nervousness, tension or resistance on the part of the horse and must be taken into account by the judges in their marks for every movement concerned, as well as in the collective mark for “submission”.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

mildot said:


> While what you say is true, Joe's point is valid at least when it comes to the US Equestrian Federation's dressage rules. A horse with its tongue hanging out is going to get penalized, sometimes severely, under the submission portion of the collective marks. Why? I haven't a clue. I know there are horses that let their tongue out when they are happy and relaxed. But don't let the judge see that, so we have to clamp the jaw shut.


 Which is exactly what I said, is it not?
Marks get deducted for resistance in each movement. Whether that be the tongue hanging out, griding teeth etc.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Which is exactly what I said, is it not?
> Marks get deducted for resistance in each movement. Whether that be the tongue hanging out, griding teeth etc.


The tongue hanging out is not necessarily an indication of resistance. But because the book says it is, some people make sure it can't come out hell or high water.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

If you dont want to encourage people to use the nosebands, stop deducting points for things that the nose bands correct. You miss understood my point. I didnt mean to say anything about specific points for the nose bands.

Take the TN walker show world, they fall over themselves to say they are against soring, ( basically using chemicals, chains, and other irritants around the horses feet to make him hurt and exaggerate a gait.)
but then they award points for how well a horse does something that is specifically caused by soring.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

99% of tongues hanging out are caused by some kind of resistance. Whether it be because the horse is not being ridden straight, and the poll is twisted so the tongue comes out the side, or the rider is heavy handed... Few horses will drop the tongue out unless there is a problem. Hence, points are deducted. How would you judge, if a horse with it's tongue hanging out was acceptable? Is the judge meant to overlook this obvious symptom of tension? 
Just like teeth grinding. I have a friend who's horse grinds its teeth constantly when there is a bit in his mouth. There is nothing physically wrong with him, the bit is fine etc. Even on a loose rein, he will grind his teeth. It is a habit. And yes, he gets marked down for it in a dressage test.
So, do we now expect the judge to stop marking down any horse that grinds its teeth, because ONE horse out there, does it as a habit and not resistance? Who cares about the other 99% that are grinding with resistance and tension?


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## Jumper12 (Feb 2, 2012)

Kayty, I never thought about it that way but you make some good points! My horse's tongue kind of bulges off to one side sometimes so you can just see it off to one side between her lips on the side of her mouth, is that her resisting? just wondering


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

That depends jumper, I couldn't tell you if it is resistance just from a description. If she is not moving straight, and over her back into a consistant contact, there is a good chance it is either resistance, tension or a symptom of crookedness. Most horses will show some crookedness, it may show as the tongue coming out one side of the mouth, a tilt or twist of the poll, a short stepping hind leg etc. Often these symptoms will be combined, and even more often, they are not picked up by someone other than a good, experienced pair of eyes on the ground that is clued in enough to pick up these subtle signs. 

This is why these types of rules are difficult. There is no clear cut yes or no answer in the introduction of these 'blanket' rules. Simililar to the proposed blood rule that was in the media recently, the FEI trying to allow some blood to be evident on a horse at the time of competition. How on earth was that meant to be policed? How much blood can be present? Is it allowed to be flowing? How sore is too sore for the horse to be allowed to continue competing? 
Dressage has so many variables as it is, to introduced more of these kinds of rules is going to turn it into an impossibly complicated sport.


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