# The Morgan Horse



## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I recently posted some pictures of my “grade” horse who is supposedly a TWH but in the two years we have owned him, has never shown a gait (previous owners were not horse people). In the time we have owned him, people have guessed him to be an Arabian, Saddlebred, Morgan, Appendix, QH x……without his papers, you really can’t tell one way or the other. One woman was very insistent he was an old type Morgan but all I had to go on were opinions. 

Why this was important to me is that he had several small issues that came up in training where whether or not he is a gaited breed might make a difference in how to proceed for the benefit of the nature of the horse.

What I found interesting in the discussion that ensued within that thread was some of his natural little quirks strongly hint that at least some of his breeding is probably Morgan.

Having only ridden QH’s the vast majority of my life, I had very little knowledge of some of the propensities of the Morgan breed, so the information that came forth such as a strong desire to trot and being able to out trot a loping or even galloping horse of another breed speed wise was very enlightening to me as these were both characteristics that my Mystery horse was displaying. 

With the preference to trot, it helps immensely in training to know that this is something born of breeding and not pure obstinacy or a health issue the vet simply couldn't find. Additionally it helped to know that from a training perspective, they may need a little more work out of saddle than your typical QH to get comfortable with the canter. 

This coupled by some comments by breeders/trainers I ran across in further investigating the Morgan breed such as:

“[Morgans] are not as forgiving as some breeds toward humans who are rough….”

“If they don’t understand something, you need to work with them, not bully them into training — that just won’t work with a Morgan.”

Were so strongly descriptive of my guy, along with the previously mentioned characteristics, that I have come to believe that he does have at least some influence of Morgan blood.

In the end it wasn’t so much how he looked, though from the breed conformation given on breeding websites he does fit that bill for the government type bloodline as well, it was the habits and the nature of the horse that sealed the deal in my mind.

Now to the purpose of this post.

In looking at websites regarding the Morgan breed they are fairly generic repeating over and over the same descriptions of standards for the horse in character, conformation and demeanor. If that was all I had to go on, well, a lot of horses who are not Morgan might match as well, such as easy to train, intelligent etc. 

What I am most interested in at the moment, is far more personal. Those of you who own Morgans, what about them have you found to be their nature; Little quirks, habits, training issues….things that you have found differentiate them from other breeds you have owned? How did you deal with them?

Your input would be very interesting to me as I am just beginning to study this breed.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I have a Morgan, probably old-style -- she was a rescue from an abandoned breeding herd, so don't know her lines. She's the one in my avatar. But the show lines are more like small Saddlebreds in type, and have a reputation for being both hot and crazy. She's not like that.

She's spunky but not stubborn or mean or underhanded. She's lively but not hot. Sensitive but essentially level-headed (most of the time). She's unusually bright and inquisitive. Likes to take things apart and open gates and untie herself. One of my friends has a Polish Arab -- strongly built, level-headed, full of go. She is a bit like him in temperament and appearance. 

In the pasture she is always the first horse to see anything new. Does not miss a thing. 

And yes, she can really trot! Loves to trot. She can canter too though. 

Compared to a typical Quarter Horse? If there is such a thing? A lot of QH's are kind of stolid and steady, good natured and accepting. A big reason why they are so popular. She is not stolid. She's green, and maybe eventually I'd call her steady but she is too sensitive to be described that way. She is not the horse you throw a toddler on and lead around. Although Morgans have a rep as a truly great family horse, in general. She is a horse who will test you, and will remember the tiny thing you slacked up on and didn't correct. But she also remembers everything you worked through together. She doesn't make the same mistake or startle at the same thing twice. 

She's a lot of fun!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Avna, thank-you. 

That was one of the things where I felt he didn’t fit in the breed descriptions. 

He is not a child’s horse or even a husband horse. I don’t think he ever will be. He’s far too forward moving and particular about how he is ridden and he will very much test his rider. He is the one horse we have that I do not set the grandkids on to lead around.

Like yours, he is an honest broker, but is not afraid to express his opinion in certain matters. I think that was where some of the guesses that he was an Arabian came from. He certainly doesn’t look it.

He is also very alert and is our herd leader...when I'm not there of course!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I hate this IPad --- lost my entire post-----errrr.

Ok---- sit down and fasten your seatbelt:

1. Morgan's are gaited. Check out the gaited Morgan breeder, Jellico Farms.

2. The Foundation Mare of Record for the Tennessee Walking Horse was a black *Morgan* mare, named Maggie Marshall. She was grand or great granddaughter of "Figure", aka Justin Morgan had a Horse" of Walt Disney movie fame.

2.1. The TWH in my avatar was mistaken, several times in his life, for a gaited Morgan.

3. My grandad raised Welsh/Morgan crosses. The little chestnut mare would single foot but she never passed it on to any of her get --- or if she did, we didn't know enough to bring it out in them.

We never had problems with her foals. They were all willing students and easily trained. My grandad was also a man who demanded we "treat those horses the way we wanted to be treated, or find ourselves sitting on the porch the rest of the summer."

I never saw him get stern with the mares and only on rare occasion with the stallion. I was 12 when I would ride the stallion, bareback, two miles to the corner store every Sunday morning for something my grandmother "forgot", lollol. I would tie Pepper to the rail, and he would patiently wait because he knew there was a Tootsie Roll in it for him. 

Grandad had a phenomenal/uncanny way of getting his horses to do what he wanted without ever being cross with them - physically or verbally

That should really confuse you and give you some things to research, lollol


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

My first horse, Star, (my crazy horse) was a Morgan. I don't know how many of her quirks came from her breed and how many came from past poor handling and training.

She was a very stocky mare, about 12 years old when I got her. I've described her as a draft horse shrunk down to 15 hh. Where we boarded, 30+ horses ran loose together on 40ish acres. She was one of 2 alpha mares. (Which one was the real alpha depended on which mare you asked.) She had lived there before we bought her, I don't know for how long. No one pushed Star around. If you earned her respect, she would do anything for you. If you didn't, well, good luck. The girl who owned her before I did was scared of her. Star's mouth was numb from her previous owner pulling on her with big bits. If she didn't want to listen to her rider, there were no brakes. I ended up riding her in a snaffle or mild curb (we switched between western and English) because the bit really didn't matter anymore.

Star could go all day. She never tired out. She might get hot and sweaty, but she was always ready to go some more.

This is my favorite story to illustrate her stubborn streak. Years after I bought her, we had moved to a new city and a new barn. The BO, a big old cowboy who went by Buckshot, laughed at me for trimming her bridle path with a little pair of kindergarten scissors. I told him that she hated clippers, and I couldn't clip her ears at all. He said he could do it, so I let him try. He got out the clippers and a twitch. Well, a little while later, I trimmed her bridle path with my little plastic scissors while Buckshot nursed a severely bruised ego. Star's ears were as fluffy as ever. I had learned to pick my battles, and that wasn't one I cared too much about.

Did I mention Star also disliked men? Oh, and horse trailers. She especially hated men trying to load her on a trailer!

I don't know if Star was an old type Morgan. I know she was foaled in Waldo, AR, and the name Kellogg appeared multiple times on her registration papers. If anyone knows anything about Kellogg Morgans, I'd love to hear it, but I won't hijack the thread.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

People often guess that Brooke has Arab in her, because she's small and elegant and high-headed, and that's the small elegant breed people are familiar with. But she hasn't the Arab head, not the very high tail carriage. Nor does she have the flat croup of an Arab, more of a round butt like a . . . Morgan. Also she's brown, and there aren't that many brown Arabs although it's probably the most common color of Morgan, especially the old type. 

She's got an opinion about everything too! I feel safe on her, but I wouldn't put anyone less experienced or confident than myself on her. Not that I am all that experienced or skilled, but she needs a soft touch and doesn't do well with confusing instructions. She wouldn't do anything nasty but she will get agitated if you aren't clear and calm. She's not a horse for a lazy rider. 

I don't know if she's a typical Morgan in temperament since the only ones I have been around were forty years ago, and I never rode any of them. I always admired them more than any other breed though, so I feel very very lucky to have her.


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

Oh, and yes to gaited Morgans! Star wasn't technically gaited, but her trot was so much smoother than any QH I've ever ridden.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Walk, per our prior conversations I did try to ride him along a straight away to bring out a gait, did it several times on different days and....Bupkiss. Just a trot. If he is gaited I don't know what else to do to bring it out. 

What was brought up in the other thread was the possibility of him not receiving the "gaited" gene, so just being a non-gaited TWH. Is that common? 

He also has no head nod at any point, which someone else suggested that even non-gaited TWH would have or is that an urban legend?

I would really like to know because we are at a point in training where I need to know whether to develop his trot-canter transition further more traditionally by taking out some of his extra gears at the trot or to try to keep eliciting a gait and leave the extras in... if that makes any sense.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Being on the border of New Hampshire and Vermont, Morgans are everywhere!

Mine is a 22 year old mare, but oddly enough, she's actually from a North Carolina breeding farm (Tara Farm), and more "new style" than old style/Lippitt. When she was with her breeder, she was treated like the other youngsters while they determined if she'd make the show string- so had a foundation for riding and driving put on her- but she didn't make the cut.

From there, she spent ~10 years as a family horse (for a family with 8 kids!) and had one foal during that time. I think they did some 4-h/pony club riding with her but I don't know much about any serious training she'd had done. 

I got her when she was 18 years old. She had been donated by her family as a potential therapy/lesson horse. She was very forward and a little nervous of things, and she really hated lesson horse life. She definitely needed to be a one person horse, which is where I came in, buying her after a free lease. I ended up taking some dressage lessons with her, but we both got really bored in the arena, so I decided the best thing for both of us was hacking out and trail riding. She adapted really well to it- curious and brave. She quickly became the babysitter horse at our barn who introduced new/spooky horses to trail riding.

I'm no horse trainer, and an average rider at best, but she and I have settled into a rhythm and understanding. I know the things that get her worried, and try to avoid them while pushing her to tackle things that are within her comfort zone. She's an ok mover but does have that Morgan tendency to be high headed. She doesn't like to be harshly corrected and doesn't really ever need to be. She'll take advantage of kids but is patient and tolerant enough to be used for the occasional camp session at our barn. As an adult re-rider, I've found her a great teacher.

I don't have any great confo shots of her but here are some showing how cute she is...the classic bay Morgan package 




























I'm not sure if I believe you call tell a breed based on an individual horse's personality. I'd sum my horse up as tolerant but opinionated (she is #3 out of her 5-6 mare group), even-tempered, and trustworthy. She's proven she's a good family horse and also that she likes to have her one person to work with. In contrast, there's another Morgan at our barn, same age and same looks, who is the poster horse for the perfect lesson horse. She's unflappable, loves absolutely everyone who pets her on the nose, and great at her job. She's bottom of the totem pole in the field and not a one-person horse. 

I am pretty hooked on Morgans because I like the compact size with a strong body, the good mind, and the even keeled personalities of the ones I've worked with.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

1. IMHO, there is no such thing as a purebred Tennessee Walker that doesn't gait. 

What one might see is a hard lateral pacer and somebody may train it to trot, not realizing the horse is capable of performing a stepping pace. 

Duke in my avatar was a hard lateral pacer at liberty. His stepping pace was champagne-smooth when being ridden.

2. Up/down head nods are only prevalent when the horse can perform a true running walk. Head nod can vary from barely visible to so intense, even the ears flop

2.1. Side-to side head/neck movement is dedicated to the rackers, single footers, step pacers. Also varying degrees of movement, depending on the horse, but I've never seen a side-to-side movement too intense.

Duke's was more visible at a fast dog walk than when he was in high gear in his stepping pace.
****

Is it possible to get a new video of him at a walk, then transitioning into his next gear? At least a minute, two would be better. If possible from the side, in good light (keep the sun behind you, if you can).

I wish Texas wasn't so far away, lollol


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Most Morgans are not gaited. A few have had it bred into them, perhaps when sb or other gaited horse lines have been quietly introduced in the past. I have ridden a few that would offer a foxtrot. 

Temperments will vary widely based on lineage. Modern bred horses that have been bred to look and move and think like saddlebreds ( and probably have had sb hidden into the lines) can be very hot and game. Ranch bred horses tend to be more one person horses, a bit more baroque in type. Often very cowy but can be tougher in Temperment. 

The UVM/UCONN (New England) horses are often more family friendly. They used to be more lippitt in type but now are eking towards modern show type. 

Morgan's need to be evaluated as individuals. They tend to have good minds, but not all will take a joke depending on how they were brought up. Some can be hot, some very mellow. I find that they often can be a bit stubborn and appreciate a person who is smarter than they are. If you are patient and don't over face them, they start to trust you. Once they trust you, they will go through fire for you. 

But they are a heritage breed. Which means they are smart, and perhaps not any tom, **** or Harry should try to bully them around. Because they might try to fight back.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

"2.1. The TWH in my avatar was mistaken, several times in his life, for a gaited Morgan."


The same thing happened to me when I had our TWH mare at the equine vets. A noted Morgan breeder in this area though she was a Morgan and wanted to buy her! Since Morgan horses were crossed with other breeds to develop the TWH, this does make sense that some would show Morgan characteristics.

" IMHO, there is no such thing as a purebred Tennessee Walker that doesn't gait."


Relatively recently a gaiting gene was discovered, so it is possible for a TWH to not gait if he didn't inherit the gaiting gene. The TWH is a relatively young breed compared to many so it's possible that some horses only carry one gaiting gene.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

walkinthewalk said:


> 1. IMHO, there is no such thing as a purebred Tennessee Walker that doesn't gait.
> 
> What one might see is a hard lateral pacer and somebody may train it to trot, not realizing the horse is capable of performing a stepping pace.
> 
> ...


Walk, you know I am technically challenged! :wink: 

I can see if when my husband gets home from work he can take some video and help me post it, but no guarantees as sometimes he gets home kind of late so it might be days until it happens. Maybe I'll do a different thread later for the video so I don't have to nag him into it and I can get better footage of all the different trots  

The last gear especially, he only gets into it on the really long, 1/2 mile + flat straightaways, which I have to trailer out to and that is one of the last two that I was looking to get rid of because they are nasty to ride. 

The first two, his lilting jog/trot and his "normal" trot are the two I wanted to keep and be able to transition from smoothly into the canter. 

...and Texas isn't so far away, Tennessee is! :lol:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Dehda01 said:


> . Ranch bred horses tend to be more one person horses, a bit more baroque in type. Often very cowy but can be tougher in Temperment.


"More one person horses"....check

Cowy.....haven't actually gotten him "on" a cow, but he gets an extra pep in his step (in a good way) when he hears, smells or sees them, doesn't even mind the Longhorn cattle, but that might just be the environment he was raised in. 

When you say tougher do you mean less spooky, more forgiving or difficult to train? Could you expand a little bit?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Interesting as its a sidestep from your other thread where we've been talking about Morgan's
We talked there about the horses that were brought here from the UK that were to 'evolve' into the modern day TB and their Middle Eastern origins and there's little doubt that the Morgan's were heavily influenced by them but the early British settlers also brought other horses with them and they would have been cross bred into existing lines sometimes purely to increase numbers. 
This is a quote from this link
Horses: a history
_200BC Celts enter Europe with their small, gaited horses; bays and tobianos are common. Their goddess is Epona, who gives her name to the word “pony.” Austurcons, Galacians, and Garranos are descendants of the Celtic pony. (DNA testing has confirmed relationships between the breeds, as well as a relationship between the Sorraia, Konik, and the recreated Tarpan.)_

Ireland had its own gaited breed known as the Irish Hobby Horse that would have originated from these celtic ponies and Julius Caesar is said to have taken gaited horse/ponies into Britain where they would have been really popular at a time when horses were the only transport there was if you had to ride for a long distance anywhere so its not hard to see that either gaited horses/ponies or horses that carried the gene were brought to the US and their bloodlines mixed in with those of the early Morgan horses


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Tougher as in a bit less forgiving of a mistake and less likely to pity a fool. Sometimes more sensitive to an insult. I find that they are more forgiving with their "person", but put a stranger on them, have that stranger try to cowboy them... And you might as well nickname the horse "Widowmaker"


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Dehda01 said:


> Tougher as in a bit less forgiving of a mistake and less likely to pity a fool. Sometimes more sensitive to an insult. I find that they are more forgiving with their "person", but put a stranger on them, have that stranger try to cowboy them... And you might as well nickname the horse "Widowmaker"


You just described Oliver's personality to a T!

He suffers no fools for sure; let's you know pretty quickly if he thinks you are one and two literal cowboys have bitten the dust while he has forgiven my numerous mistakes while pushing the envelope on both of our abilites. 

Interesting! Very different from a family horse.

PS. I don't know that he can take a joke, but he sure does like to play them on "his person"!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

jaydee said:


> Interesting as its a sidestep from your other thread where we've been talking about Morgan's
> We talked there about the horses that were brought here from the UK that were to 'evolve' into the modern day TB and their Middle Eastern origins and there's little doubt that the Morgan's were heavily influenced by them but the early British settlers also brought other horses with them and they would have been cross bred into existing lines sometimes purely to increase numbers.
> This is a quote from this link
> Horses: a history
> ...


Maybe that is why a Morgan is so hard to pin down as far as "looks", they have so many influences going on from the start where as other breeds kind of evolved into an easily recognizable type keeping some influences and breeding out others?


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Again, it depends on the horse. My old mare pitied no fools except with children. She loved children and could go from a fire breathing dragon with me... And I could put a kid on her and she would go into w/t kid horse mode and do a trail course. Put a person who knew how to ride and you HAD TO RIDE HER EVERY STEP! Put a jerk on her and they would land on the ground. 

So you never know....


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

We are out on a trail ride and come to a gate. So we sidepass up to it and I attempt to make a small adjustment and put the latch a bit closer so I didn’t need to lean so far forward off balance. 

Ask him to move forward one step, with a quick release as soon as he picks his foot up (this is something we have practiced multiple times successfully for months). 

Instead he takes two steps forward, the latch is now just out of my ability to reach behind. Ask for one step back he takes two steps back. Ask for forward, two steps forward, then again two steps back…he nudges the gate latch with his nose like “C’mon open it!” 

At this point I know he is messing with me. I say “Oliver!” and sigh in my best frustrated voice. Ask for one step again and this time I get the one step I needed ---or telling me to stop being so particular, I could reach it if I stretched.

I will swear that horse was intentionally making a horse funny and a little reminder of who was really in control of his feet, lest I get any grand delusions.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

They do like to keep you humble.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Maybe that is why a Morgan is so hard to pin down as far as "looks", they have so many influences going on from the start where as other breeds kind of evolved into an easily recognizable type keeping some influences and breeding out others?


Actually I think Morgans are very easy to recognize, if they are typey.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

But then I look at the different blood lines and they look so different to me one from the next...

http://www.sportmorgan.com/families/index.html

To me Go Hawk looks nothing like Moro they look like different breeds altogether.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I think they all look very similar, even between the modern vs lippitt but I have been looking at all the lines for some 20 years very closely. I don't know them quite as well as my favorite arab lines but you start to see "the look".


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Excuse the nube morgan question but if all of the pedigrees mystically disappeared overnight (along with the owner's memories) what of your own criteria would you use to determine who was a Morgan? 

I know it is a bit of asking for the artist's eye....I kind of see "the look" too, but I can't put my finger on it.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I don't know. The head, jowls, the neck and neckset, how the shoulder is put on. At this point I look at them and feel Morgan... Just like you look at an Arab no matter how untypey it might be and just can feel it soul tell you it is an Arab... But I have spent a lot of time with the breeds.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I get what you are saying, I generally can do that with QH's. It has to do as much with the nuance surrounding the whole horse as any one or two things.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Excuse the nube morgan question but if all of the pedigrees mystically disappeared overnight (along with the owner's memories) what of your own criteria would you use to determine who was a Morgan?
> 
> I know it is a bit of asking for the artist's eye....I kind of see "the look" too, but I can't put my finger on it.


My own criteria would be:

fairly short stature (15 hands would be a big one)
'conservative' colors with little white -- dark bay is typical 
compact and strong-looking without coarseness, or obvious muscling like a QH
luxuriant mane and tail but little to no feather
a 'balanced' shape, neither uphill nor downhill
rather baroque head, straight profile, clever little ears, neck is set high, distinct crest on stallions
short back, rounded croup, arched neck, well-cut throatlatch, sloping shoulder; a horse built of curves rather than angles

Now, obviously this isn't describing a 16 hand palomino park horse with its head in the sky, and I have seen photos of slews of registered Morgans I could not identify as a Morgan, so my definition is more narrow than most. But if I saw a horse like my description that wasn't a Morgan I would be very surprised.


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## BlackBerry (Jun 6, 2016)

I rode a Morgan and leased the little guy for over three years. He has very natural trot that homes to him with ease. His trot was very prominent in his movement, it was lofty and light as if he could hold it for hours with out breaking a sweat. But the thing that sticks out about him the most was his desire to learn, and please. He was a forward thinker and you needed to be on your toe's to keep up with him. He always had the ability to be with you for a moment but the next you've lost him. Although he had the most amazing canter, it was like sitting on a cloud. Supper soft and easy on the back. He was always very aware of humans who were around him. He was not the horse to use a punishment with. You had to be light and calm or you'd lose him.
Hope this helps.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

You have to remember that the Morgan was crossed with other breeds to develop many of the newer breeds we have today. TWH's owe their smooth gaits, friendly demeanor, and some physical traits like the flowing mane and tail to the Morgan, which is why some are mistaken for them. I've no doubt that Morgans were also used to develop the quarter horse, paints, and other stock breeds since they would have be brought westward for their wonderful traits.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've seen some very different types of Morgans since I've been here that I'm not even sure I could pick one out,
I put this collection of photographs together and wonder who can tell which one's are Morgans?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I've seen some very different types of Morgans since I've been here that I'm not even sure I could pick one out,
> I put this collection of photographs together and wonder who can tell which one's are Morgans?


To me, those pics all look like Morgans except possibly the last two. The second to last almost looks like a Saddlebred (but many 'modern' Morgans have so much Saddlebred in them as makes no difference), and the last one could even be a warmblood. But my bet is they are all Morgans. I especially like the first two at the top.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Ok- I will play. 
Top left... not. Front half looks right, but back half doesnt. I wish I could enlarge the pictures more. I say quality horse not Morgan.
Middle Top... Seems like a gaited horse to me. But could be. This is my Cant quite decide.
Top Right- Looks like a Caufield morgan. Very ponish. But when they started breeding for color and lost type. I am probably wrong, but I say morgan.
Bottom Left. MORGAN... Maybe this is a ringer... Toss a gaited stallion in and they can thicken and start looking Morgan.
Bottom middle. Modern Type morgan
Bottom Right... Britsh riding horse of some type.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Fun!

The one I say a definite yes to is bottom left. 

Bottom right, wish it was stood up square like the others as I can't quite decide- but I'm leaning no. Bottom middle, I'll say yes, modern show type.

Top- I'll say yes on all but I'm not sure about top middle, looks a little light all around to me and not in a Saddlebredy type way like the bottom middle.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Prairie,

I am aware that the Morgan is a part of many breeds and that the fact that Oliver is displaying some of the traits that can be found in Morgans in no way makes him a purebred Morgan. 

However when you work with one breed for a very long time and then get a horse whose behaviors and leanings shatter the mold of what you are used to seeing and dealing with, it behooves both yourself and the horse within the realm of treating that horse fairly, to explore the best way forward to work within the nature of that horse. To me that means doing your best to understand why they do what they do. 

Is it nature (instinct) or is it nurture (habit)? Those two things are very different from a training perspective. It is much easier to re-train how a horse spooks than it is to eliminate their instinct to spook in the first place. 

After finding no forthcoming gait, we considered that he might be an ungaited TWH and attempted to make it as easy as possible to find his gait, thus discovering that he had many trots and a strong preference to trot. To date, I am the only rider who has gotten him to canter in the arena and out more than a few beats without getting thrown. (checked medical issues and none were found) or encountering serious resistance. 

As he started to fill out and muscle up we considered that he might be a QH, being that it is the most populous breed here in Texas. But having worked with tons of QH's, in person, he doesn't act or feel like one. This led myself and my trainer (who is in his 70's) to say if there is QH in him, there is very little and his behaviors demonstrated are very atypical of a QH. 

Consider too that a lot of his muscling is due to the terrain we ride in, I live in the Texas Hill Country and flats on trails are only sporadic. We ride a lot of "mountains" and it tends to build solid bulky muscle. 

Doing mostly trail rides where I trailer out, people seem attracted to Oliver and are always asking me what breed he is. I say "we really don't know" upon which, they usually comment that they think he is ___ fill in the blank. 

This one lady who had ridden Morgans exclusively for many years stands out to me. She didn't even ask what he was. She just came up and said "What a beautiful Morgan!" with no doubt in her mind, upon which I said we didn't really know what he was. 

She told me his head and short back gave him away but as Dehda01 stated is with her, it might have been the aura of the horse as a whole that the woman was responding to. 

To date, the only person who has said he is a TWH was the people we bought him from and they knew very little of horses and they said he gaited. They owned him for six months, during which time they nearly starved him to death their comment to me was "They [the horses] were fatter when they got them, don't know what happened" so I take anything they had to say for a comment made by people who were clueless. It is quite possible that they mistook his smooth trot for a gait and thus he MUST be a TWH. 

Here is a picture of my daughter riding Oliver's daughter at age 2 1/2 I'm sorry I don't have any better pictures she was my neighbor's horse (we know nothing of the dam). 

She is much finer boned and less muscled (still young though) and rounded barrel, but she seems to have inherited that same smooth unusual (for a QH) trot and no gait, but higher fore leg action than her father. She is a very different personality than Oliver as is demonstrated that after only a couple of weeks after backing, she gave my daughter a very nice ride and was quite the babysitter.


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## autumn rain (Sep 7, 2012)

The horse on the bottom left looks very much like my mare, who is a Morgan/QH cross. A lot of the things people have been saying about the temperament of a Morgan horse fits her well. She is very smart and curious about everything, but if you do not make it clear what you want her to do, then she will make her own agenda. She is never nasty or mean but she needs to be challenged. She is kind of like the Jack Russell of horses with a "what's in it for me attitude". It is also true that she is not tolerant of rough handling, but is quick to learn when the handler is clear on what is expected. I've had her for 8 years, and she will still question things if they don't make sense to her, or if she doesn't understand. As for trotting, well, it's true that she loves to trot and at speed, too. It takes work to get a nice slow extended trot out of her, since she likes to be quite forward. If you follow Parelli at all and are familiar with the horsenelality charts, then have a look. She is definitely a left brained extrovert. Whether any of this is the Morgan in her or not, is up for speculation, I guess. LOL


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I'm probably about to show how much I DON'T know about Morgan's, which I love.

Top and bottom left both look like old time Lippett Morgan's.

Middle two could be Newer model Morgan's, the bottom middle could even be a Saddlebred.

Top right is either a purebred Arab or a Morgan/Arab cross (Morab for which there is a registry).

I would say the bottom right could have passed as a Tennessee Walker except for the leg movement. Maybe a Standardbred or a Morgan/cross.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

OK
The top left is a British riding pony stallion that's got a mix of welsh, TB and Arabian in his bloodlines, middle top is a Morgan, top right is a youngish Welsh section B, 
Bottom left is a Lippitt Morgan, bottom middle is a Morgan and bottom right is another British Riding pony stallion - also welsh/TB/Arabian mix


What I noticed most when I looked at the Lippitt Morgans is that they're a lot more like the original Morgan must have been especially if it was a strong as they say he was but the modern Morgans look more like the British riding ponies do which is a result of adding more and more TB and Arabian to get a far more lightweight and refined look to them


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Wowzer, I'm dazed by the top right being a type of Welsh; what is a "Section B"? 

I didn't think they got that big, plus that looks like an Arab head. You could have even sold me on an Arab/Saddlebred cross <sigh>


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

"However when you work with one breed for a very long time and then get a horse whose behaviors and leanings shatter the mold of what you are used to seeing and dealing with, it behooves both yourself and the horse within the realm of treating that horse fairly, to explore the best way forward to work within the nature of that horse. To me that means doing your best to understand why they do what they do. "


LOL, I went from showing a 3/4 Arabian in hunter-jumper and using him for some endurance riding along with working ranch horses used on our cattle to TWH's, both rescues with a ton of issues. That was an abrupt learning curve since I knew nothing about gaited horses and the mare has 8 identifiable gears! Just cueing her was a challenge especially since there is nobody in this area with gaited horses to guide me.


I wish I could see the whole legs of the horse your daughter is riding, since from what can be seen is not the legs of a horse trotting----could be an amble or a broken trot possibly.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The Welsh Section B is actually only a max height of 13.2 and they're rather a designer breed that was aimed at combining the hardiness of the welsh breeds with the conformation to make it more suited to being an all round riding pony rather than a cob type pony. They went through a period when they were getting way too much like miniature Anglo Arabians but they seem to be getting back to a more pony look again in the body at least


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

jaydee said:


> The Welsh Section B is actually only a max height of 13.2 and they're rather a designer breed that was aimed at combining the hardiness of the welsh breeds with the conformation to make it more suited to being an all round riding pony rather than a cob type pony. They went through a period when they were getting way too much like miniature Anglo Arabians but they seem to be getting back to a more pony look again in the body at least



Since Welsh are virtually unknown here, it's been years since I've seen a Welsh B so the ones I remember were much like an miniature Anglo-Arabian. That really surprised on the Welsh Section B!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Prairie, 

Ask and Ye shall receive! 

I don't have anyone here to guide me either.....everyone I know has only ever had QH's!

Apologies again, I only have a couple of pics and they are all of the walk.

At 2 1/2 the horse measured 14 hh









This is a still frame of Oliver at a soft trot....

http://www.horseforum.com/horses/photos/18983b4eb85344f9d4517e2abbb46f5f_full.jpg


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Thanks for the mental gymnastics, @jaydee. That was fun! And my eye is bad


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## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

Thanks jaydee! Now I know Star the crazy horse was likely a Lippitt type Morgan. If you added two small socks to the bottom left horse and made it a mare, you'd have a picture of Star. I still wish I knew who named her and why, because Star didn't have a single white hair on her face. She was registered as either Starburst or Star Burst, I can't remember which. Hey, it's been 20+ years.


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## Pearl5 (Sep 5, 2017)

Reviving this thread because I'm looking for some Morgan lovers ... and I like @jaydee 's pictoral quiz.

I guessed the upper and lower middle, and bottom left were Morgans. Mine looks like the middle one and from what I've been told, she's definitely the modern type. I don't know much about Morgans since I have mostly spent time with Arabians, QH and crosses. Now I'm in Mustang territory with QH and TB rounding out the top three.

My instructor is a Morgan-lover (Morgans weren't at all on my radar when looking) and she describes their personalities much like what @autumn rain describes. 



autumn rain said:


> A lot of the things people have been saying about the temperament of a Morgan horse fits her well. She is very smart and curious about everything, but if you do not make it clear what you want her to do, then she will make her own agenda. She is never nasty or mean but she needs to be challenged. <snip> It is also true that she is not tolerant of rough handling, but is quick to learn when the handler is clear on what is expected. <snip> As for trotting, well, it's true that she loves to trot and at speed, too. It takes work to get a nice slow extended trot out of her, since she likes to be quite forward.


This describes Sunshine right down to the hot trotting. Her canter is like sitting in a rocking chair. Never had a horse so smooth under saddle at the canter.


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## LoveGus (Oct 4, 2016)

Pearl5 said:


> Reviving this thread because I'm looking for some Morgan lovers ... and I like @jaydee 's pictoral quiz.
> 
> I guessed the upper and lower middle, and bottom left were Morgans. Mine looks like the middle one and from what I've been told, she's definitely the modern type. I don't know much about Morgans since I have mostly spent time with Arabians, QH and crosses. Now I'm in Mustang territory with QH and TB rounding out the top three.
> 
> ...


Morgan lover here


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

WE saw quite a few at the Equine Affaire yesterday and the differences between one horse and another was really quite noticeable though the same could have been said of several breeds that were there inasmuch as in some cases it was hard to tell what they were or they'd changed in some way(s) from the way they used to look but were still recognizable.


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## Pearl5 (Sep 5, 2017)

I went to a fundraiser at a [majority] Arabian horse barn today. So happened I met someone who knows the person who sold me my horse. She said the seller had been trying to find a home for my horse for months. The horse is highly trained and this woman couldn't figure out why no one was biting. 

We surmised it's because this is Arabian, QH and TB country (notsomuch the latter). If someone buys a Morgan they are looking for the more traditional style (15h, stout, Bay) rather than a 16h Palomino.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Since I am slowly shopping for another Morgan I will chime in to this renewed thread with some recent thoughts. 

Morgans are a dwindling breed. Around 600 were registered last year, and as for my favorite line, Lippitt, which is the oldest line and the one most closely related to Justin Morgan, I think the number was 33. 

Modern breeders seem to fall into about four types. The ones who seem to have the majority voice in the registry are the Park people. Their horses not only are trained and shown like Saddlebreds, they have quite a bit of Saddlebred in them close up, as there was at least one scandal when it was found that a famous breeder had been secretly registering half Saddlebreds as Morgans. These lines, to me, look exactly like Saddlebreds. They are often much taller than the traditional Morgan, have flat croups, 'nutty' temperaments, and exaggeratedly high head sets. 

The second type of breeder is newer -- the Sport Horse. These Morgans can look just like Warmbloods -- tall, refined, lower head set. Again, trying to fit the Morgan into a popular niche that is already dominated by another breed (if Warmbloods are a 'breed'). Again, with loss of original type. However, this is also the category that the Western Dressage -- which originated with Morgans -- seems to fit into, but they prefer the older Baroque type. 

The third type is the Working Western. This is a group of old lines developed for ranch work which predated and heavily influenced the early working Quarter Horse. They are still being used for their original purposes, and conserved, but they are now of course rarer. These lines remind me a lot of the oldest photos of Quarter Horses, before sprinting TBs changed them. Coarser, very sturdy, medium height. They are cowy and tough. These are also the lines where "colored" Morgans originated, with a lot of buckskin, dun, palomino. 

The fourth type is the only one that I'm interested in. Perhaps the rarest. It's the oldest. This is a short strong-looking horse with a baroque head. Big sloping shoulder, deep chest, well sprung short back, round muscular rear, arched neck with a pronounced crest in stallions. Generally chestnut, bay, and black. These and the Working Western are also the ones likely to have the Morgan temperament once widely celebrated -- steady-minded but energetic, opinionated, smart, loyal, with endless try and go. They are and always were bred for harness as much as riding, so they have that trot to them. 

These lines and the Western Working lines are called Foundation or Traditional Morgans. Lippitt is the purest and oldest (it has its own registry). 

There's a brand new Facebook group called ISO Morgans which may or may not be indicative, but the majority of posters so far are looking for the old types, not the Sport or Park Morgans. Though this may be because those already have their own groups. I am hoping that there will be an upwelling of new interest in the old type, which unlike the others is unique. Perhaps the same returning interest in small-scale rural values which are rescuing heirloom apple and tomato varieties, homestead chicken breeds, and niche breeds of sheep will also save the old Morgan.

The modern trends in horse breeds are for tall, heavy, eye-catching colors, and specialization. A pony-sized, conservative-hued, multi-purpose breed has small place in such a world. Which to me is very sad, as this is exactly the kind of horse I have now and wish to find again.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I think my first statistic is wrong -- it was more than 600. But it is hard to find that statistic. The Lippitt registry publishes their numbers and they are very low and sinking.


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## Pearl5 (Sep 5, 2017)

@Avna Thank you for this information.

My instructor is firmly in your court. Today she was saddling her favorite Morgan and my son asked: "Is your mare a pony." My instructor told him it was close, but the mare is a horse. My Morgan purist instructor has said many times that despite her "good looks" the thing she likes most about my horse is her temperament. She is steady-minded but energetic, smart, opinionated, loyal,ed and doesn't have an off button.

The person who owned Sunshine before me and the previous owner was interested in breeding. This woman bred Moresians. My instructor has hinted that it would be great if my mare bred to a Working Western Morgan stallion with some sort of special black gene (I forgot the name. Apparently it could lead to a buckskin Morgan that is truer in type than mine.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Working Western would certainly add type -- Working Western type! 

Your palomino is genetically red (chestnut) with one cream gene. To have a fifty percent chance of a buckskin foal, she would also have to be AA for agouti (two alleles for bay, which is hidden in reds) and the sire would have to be homozygous for black (no chestnut gene, which is hidden in blacks). Odds of buckskin go down with other color gene combos. So I'm guessing he is a homozygous black. 

good website to fool with this stuff: animal genetics coat color calculator


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## Pearl5 (Sep 5, 2017)

Yes, that's the term - homozygous black!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Homozygous simply means he has two copies of the same gene. In his case black. So if your mare had a copy of dominant agouti to pass and passed the cream gene she has you would get your buckskin. You can have her tested for the dominant agouti and then you would know before hand if she carried it. My pally stallion is homozygous for dominant agouti. He was tested when he threw a bay out of a black mare. There was also a bay stallion on the property at the time.

I had a friend in Texas that raised Lippits. One of these days I'm going to look her up to see if she still does.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That simply means he has two copies of the black gene. You could test your mare to see if she carried dominant agouti and whether she was homozygous for it or heterozygous (one copy). Then as long as she passed her copy of cream and dominant agouti you'd have a beautiful bucksin. We found out our pally stallion is homozygous for dominant agouti when we had him tested the year he threw a bay out of a black mare. There was a bay stallion on the property as well. 

I had a friend in Tx that raised Lippits. One of these days I need to look her up.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Went on a little day trip up to Woodstock, VT last week with my husband, and strolled past this:









DH knows a bit about Morgans because of my mares, but he got an earful about the history of the breed on our trip :wink:


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Apparently the history lesson stuck with DH- he came home from work yesterday and said he had been talking to a colleague about our new mare, Fizz, and, quote: "I told her Fizz was a Morgan, which is the original American horse breed." It was a sweet story :grin:

The Chronicle had a nice article about Avatar's Jazzman, a Morgan gelding who's doing great in open eventing: The Chronicle of the Horse


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Interesting thread!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I love Morgans too! My Aunt and Uncle breed them for many years long ago. Owned a young Morgan mare myself, but they are rather rare here. 

The ones I prefer are definitely the ones like the original Juntin Morgan; compact, curvy, multi-use horses with stamina and heart. Many of them paddle which is the reason they are a smooth ride (or so I have been told that is the reason) 

I was hunting for a nice Morgan gelding for a long time, but just don't like the way they have been changed to be so like Saddlebreds. I like and have ridden Saddlebreds, but that is not what I wanted...

This is my current ride; many of you may know what breed he is, but I think he much resembles a Morgan although he is gaited. He too is the "old style" type in his breed. 

Sorry could not find any good pictures so using this video


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## Pearl5 (Sep 5, 2017)

@Avna have you taken a look at Forever Morgans Rescue? 

I am not sure if you're looking for a registered or grade Morgan or perfection of some sort. My instructor has had Morgans (Lippitt and Working) for 30 years. She said no one is selling but you may find what you're looking for through rescue.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Pearl5 said:


> @Avna have you taken a look at Forever Morgans Rescue?
> 
> I am not sure if you're looking for a registered or grade Morgan or perfection of some sort. My instructor has had Morgans (Lippitt and Working) for 30 years. She said no one is selling but you may find what you're looking for through rescue.


Yes, I keep an eye on their listings. My requirements are somewhat stringent (height, type, age, training, location) and they rarely have fosters near me, though.


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## Pearl5 (Sep 5, 2017)

@Avna, this is nowhere near you, but MicMac Morgans breed Lippets. I am not sure if the horse you want actually exists, but if it does they may be able to help you.

MicMac Morgan Horse Farm


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Pearl5 said:


> @Avna, this is nowhere near you, but MicMac Morgans breed Lippets. I am not sure if the horse you want actually exists, but if it does they may be able to help you.
> 
> MicMac Morgan Horse Farm


Yes, I think they are in Michigan, but I would have to phone them as they clearly do not understand how websites work.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Avna I was hoping I wasn't the only one that had confusion about that website.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> Avna I was hoping I wasn't the only one that had confusion about that website.


Speaking as a former website designer and longtime web manager, I can see that what they've done is started and then abandoned, without deleting, at least three sites, the oldest dating to the 1990's. All are "information coming soon!" which never came. My guess is that they don't spend a lot of time on the internet. 

Right now I have a line on a Lippitt mare very close to where I am moving to, but can't see her until I get there. She is part of the very last of the dispersed Randallane breeding farm.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Picked up Podhajsky's _My Horses, My Teachers _from the library today and was pleasantly surprised to see the photo and caption gracing the back cover:


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