# "its upsetting to us horsey people!" *rant*



## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

So recently there was a photo posted on an equestrian page on facebook that showed a horse with lances along his neck and shoulders. This is the treatment for Clostridial Myonecrosis(gas gangrene) which had developed from an IM administered dose of Banamine. It was caused by the owners yes but NOT intentionally, and the owner followed the directions given on the bottle. This is a condition that could be cause by any time of injection or puncture.

This is the horse and photo used on fb - *My Virtual Eventing Coach*









A photo of the horse in the treatment center with the muscle slashes (lancing cuts several inches long) and the drainage tubes was posted as a reference to promote the "omg" factor of why you dont want to inject a horse IM and people were going off on how "cruel" it is to deliberately slash a horse and put all these things into him as if they did it because they thought it would look cool. One person said "What ever the hell it is, it is gross, some of us who love horses are very upset by this photo." another said "Wtf! Put the poor horse down, why let it suffer all that????"

What bothers me is the fact they they a blissful to be ignorant of the possible side effects of what they very well might do to their own horse. That they dont want to see or learn or know what might happen because its "gross" That they think it is only getting to see the pretty things that come with having a horse. Or that they have so blatant a disregard for life of the animal because they think it is more simple to just put the animal down and buy a new one. There are so many things that his horse could have meant to the owner that made them willing to put out the cash to treat it instead of TAKING THE EASY WAY OUT and just euthanizing it.

I was called abusive for using a hackamore because it rubbed a little hair off of my uncles gelding, who was shedding his winter coat. I have been told that I am cruel for using a rope to help get a horse to lie down for a treatment. I was told to "just put that gelding down" because my gelding's, Sonny's, leg is turned in so it is harder to do things with a rider and when I got him he was severely underweight.

The fact that some people deliberately blind to things of such a magnitude, simply because its "gross" or "upsetting" (and not just in the horse world) aggravates me to no end. You can not life in a perfect shiny world having to go through tough treatments for an accidental illness is part of having the good memories.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

I hardly call putting a horse to sleep the easy way out.

Every horseowner makes decisions for their horse based on many factors and yes money is usually a big consideration.
No matter how much money I had, I would never put my horse through this procedure. And I hardly would consider that the easy way out. 

And although that is my decision for my horse, I do not judge you or anyone else if you would choose to have this procedure done. And I hope that you would offer me the same consideration. If and when I make the decision to have my horse put to sleep, I assure you it will be, and has been in the past, one of the most difficult decisions I have ever have to make.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

I would have put that animal down.

There comes a point in time where you have to ask yourself "Is this the best thing for my horse, or am I really doing this just to make myself feel better?" I will never let my conciounce win over the ethical treatment of an animal. I have seen many people keep an animal alive simply because they can't bear to put it down. Meanwhile, that animal suffers and suffers and suffers.

I am not scared easily by procedures. I have stapled horss back together, grew a leg back around the bone, and had my nasal cavity assaulted with spurting blood and puss from a wound. Procedures don't scare me in the least. However, if this was my horse, I would have had her put down before I put her through that.

Putting an animal down is the hardest thing any loving and responsible owner can do. It's always sad, and it's always hard. Never is it the easy way out.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

While this horse owner might have said, "I love my horse so much I will have this procedure done to him".

I on the other hand would say, "I love my horse so much, I will not have this procedure done to him".


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

The point wasn't intended to be discussing putting the horse down or not. However on that topic this is actually not as invasive as it may look. It is similar to lancing a cyst or abscess. This is a procedure also done on humans with the same infection. And although I probably did word it poorly in the ranting mood I was in the point I was trying to convey is that many people in the horse world (no perhaps not on here) do not think of, want to see or will straight up deny the horrors that may come with having a horse. The biggest one that upset me is the comment about how it was gross and upsetting to people who particularly love horses. In my opinion they do not love horses they love the romanticized idea of horses. It was that because it is something hard to look at they would sit there and say stop posting stuff like this because it upsets me. 

I did not mean to make it sound like it was not a difficult decision simply that I can not stand those with the "oh well just another piece of horse flesh" mentality. and though I do not believe in putting a horse down first because it is one of the options I do agree that it is the best thing to do then I will do it. 

When I brought my horse to the property he is at now there was an extremely old ill horse that had lost weight mass and could hardly walk let alone keep up with the heard. I had often asked to put it down but they said no because one woman there, who was not the owner of the horse, could not bare to see it shot. I know where that goes very well. However you do not know the age of this horse or what its life is like. Yes it might seem less painful to put the horse to sleep but this treatment actually relieves a terrible pain. This horse will be able to have a complete and normal life once the slits heal.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

I know the girl that owns this horse, and I doubt she would be very happy about you posting it here, to get peoples opinion on it.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Things like this tend to not happen exactly like you think. An infected wound like this might need to be lanced in one spot. Then things progress. Things get worse. There is more lancing. By that time, you figure that he has been through so much, you might just need to keep trying. 

People do tend to take things like this and use them either to get a shock out of people or to try to make a point about using or not using certain drugs such as banamine. They use it to say, "If you use banamine, your horse will look like this and it will be your fault."
They use it to exaggerate things and make people feel bad about themselves.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

myhorsesonador said:


> I know the girl that owns this horse, and I doubt she would be very happy about you posting it here, to get peoples opinion on it.


Good point.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

This horse was injected for performance enhancement reasons I believe. This is what caused the surgeries needed. 




myhorsesonador said:


> I know the girl that owns this horse, and I doubt she would be very happy about you posting it here, to get peoples opinion on it.


Neither horse nor owner was identified, in fact you did that by implying it was close to you. This pic is all over FB.


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

I think it is amazing to see how far veterinarian medicine has come. I think that this is educational and as already stated, a part of owning a horse. We had a similar thing happen to a Morgan mare we owned. Though it was the vet fault as he injected her with cattle meds instead of horse.
Needless to say 20 years ago they didn't do this! Our mare had to undergo emergency.surgery and a huge piece of her hip.had to be removed to save her life. She went on to live to be 28 years old and taught me many things. I wonder how her life would have been different if they would have.known to do this year's ago. She was a very successful show mare and you could tell she missed it.
Anyways thanks for showing this it is very interesting to see how medicine has advances.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

AlexS said:


> This horse was injected for performance enhancement reasons I believe. This is what caused the surgeries needed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not close to the horse, but I do happen to be friends with the owner. I'm not going to identifie any one, because it's not my place to, nor should I be giving out some one elses information.

I'm just saying, that the owner of this horse, and the photo didn't give any one permission to use this photo, and I'm pretty sure thats agains forum rules.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

If its on Facebook, it's public knowledge. Anything you put on the Internet is for billions to view and post an opinion about. If you don't want the opinions, keep the posts and pictures to yourself.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

Copperhead said:


> If its on Facebook, it's public knowledge. Anything you put on the Internet is for billions to view and post an opinion about. If you don't want the opinions, keep the posts and pictures to yourself.


It was posted on a privet FB page, then it got out. How would you like it if I took one of your photos, and spread it all over the internet, for people to say things about?


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

And before you get upset about it all, keep in mind that the OP was posting FOR the owner, not against. She was expressing her opinion on how the owner was doing the right thing, and how annoyed she is that other people are nay saying.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

myhorsesonador said:


> It was posted on a privet FB page, then it got out. How would you like it if I took one of your photos, and spread it all over the internet, for people to say things about?


Its happened. And I don't post anything, public OR PRIVATE that I don't want opinions on. I've also had a case of art theft where a web page was using one of my pieces to decorate their page with.

I shrugged. Because life goes on. And to be completely flabbergasted and shocked that someone was using my image would be a contradiction to putting it on the Internet in the first place.

You don't want people to see and repost photos, you don't post them. If your concerned about art theft, you watermark it. But if you put a picture on such a public place, even privately, it's almost laughable that you should become upset if and when that photo goes viral.

Especially a disturbing photo, where one might have strong feelings about it.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

Ok talked the girl, she said it's not hers, just a horse from the vet she works for. So It's not even her horse either.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

So now that you don't know who owns the horse, it's automatically ok? 

Oh boy.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

Copperhead said:


> So now that you don't know who owns the horse, it's automatically ok?
> 
> Oh boy.


No it's still not ok, in my opinion, it's worse. For all I know, the real owner could not have wanted her horses photo every where.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

Shouldn't have posted it then.

On the flip side, said girl could have photographed the horse without permission and put it on the web. It happens all the time.

Either way, it's out there. By accident or purposefully. Life goes on. We get over it. If they didn't want opinions, they shouldn't have put it on the web. If they didn't put it on the web, someone did it without permission .

Can't change what's already in motion. This thread is ridiculous.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

The real owner has not been identified, however this photo is all over FB as the owner did this to the horse drugging it for competition. 

If you feel sorry for the owner in this situation, then I feel sorry for you. Maybe you don't know the whole story?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

When horses reach rescues, their photos are taken, often in deplorable conditions right - we all accept this as the norm. The owners did this to the horse, this is the treatment the horse received because the owners allowed it to be injected so they could perform better. 

Myhorsesonader, you cannot seriously be ok with this?


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

AlexS said:


> When horses reach rescues, their photos are taken, often in deplorable conditions right - we all accept this as the norm. The owners did this to the horse, this is the treatment the horse received because the owners allowed it to be injected so they could perform better.
> 
> Myhorsesonader, you cannot seriously be ok with this?


Maybe you don't know the whole story? 

Here is the post fromthe original vet post.

"Malcom is a 14 year old Quarter Horse gelding who presented to Bend Equine for a firm swelling on his neck after receiving 10ml of Banamine in the muscle yesterday morning for mild colic symptoms. On presentation ...
Malcom had a fever of 103.5 F, was lethargic and inappetant and the swelling was firm and hot to the touch. On ultrasound the following images were obtained of the swelling. Pockets of fluid and white flecks indicating gas bubbles could be appreciated deep in the muscle. These findings indicate an abscess had formed from an anaerobic bacteria that produces gas (anaerobic bacteria are a type of bacteria that can only survive in environments without air)"

http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1653360


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

Which brings us back to our first point, I believe.

The owner was attempting to enhance the horse with drugs for a ribbon. The owner obviously was thinking o ly of his or herself.

Those of us who would have put the horse down because we cared enough about it can view this situation as a "I'm keeping this horse alive because I care about me".

I don't know the entire story. But if this happened because of enhancing drugs, I can safely presume that the owner is more involved with what's best for the owner, not the horse.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

myhorsesonador said:


> Maybe you don't know the whole story?
> 
> Here is the post fromthe original vet post.
> 
> ...


Are you sure that's the truth? There seems to be a whole lot of "truth" out there for this one photo. I could very easily repost this picture with my own truth and see what happens.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

Copperhead said:


> Are you sure that's the truth? There seems to be a whole lot of "truth" out there for this one photo. I could very easily repost this picture with my own truth and see what happens.


Thats from the vet, so unless they stoll a bunch of photos too, then thats as much truth as I know about. If there is more to it, then I don't know about it.


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ok so I'm a little confused here originally myhorsesandor was upset because this pic was posted here, but wouldnt release any names or anything to protect the owner because they didn't think that the owner would appreciate this pic being on here. But now you have gone and posted the whole vet report?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

cowgirl4753 said:


> Ok so I'm a little confused here originally myhorsesandor was upset because this pic was posted here, but wouldnt release any names or anything to protect the owner because they didn't think that the owner would appreciate this pic being on here. But now you have gone and posted the whole vet report?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thats because I thought it belonged to a friend of mine, but it's not her's it was a horse from the vet. The vet posted it on their FB, and it's a public page. So I was wrong about the owner, but it still doesn't change the fact that this was posted with out permission.


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

Ok I realize that you feel very strongly about this but its not your picture. If you feel like this picture has been stolen or used out of context then you should let the owner of the pic know and they can decide if it needs to be removed or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Not sure how I feel about this, and don't think I can form an educated opinion without all the facts. However, curiousity got the best of me and I found the Facebook page. The horse looks a lot better in the most recent pictures. It's on their public Facebook page, so I should be OK to repost it, correct?


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## cowgirl4753 (Aug 3, 2012)

Wow he looks great now!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I would love to see the horse now.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> I would love to see the horse now.


Acording to the FB page, he is home now, so I don't know if we will ever see what he looks like all healed up.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

myhorsesonador said:


> Acording to the FB page, he is home now, so I don't know if we will ever see what he looks like all healed up.


These posts indicate there are newer pictures. Perhaps I should have said what the more recent pictures were.



equiniphile said:


> Not sure how I feel about this, and don't think I can form an educated opinion without all the facts. However, curiousity got the best of me and I found the Facebook page. The horse looks a lot better in the most recent pictures. It's on their public Facebook page, so I should be OK to repost it, correct?





cowgirl4753 said:


> Wow he looks great now!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I'll be honest, I'm not sure what I would do in that situation. There are a lot of variables to consider; which horse it is, what the chances are for a full recovery, what the chances are for further infection from the open wounds, what long-term damage there might be both from the procedure itself but also from extended treatments with antibiotics and pain meds, and what the cost of the treatment is going to be.

Since I don't even know what I would do, I cannot fault the horse owner for their decision, either way. They chose to fight for the horse, they were fully informed on the entire situation, I am not so I can't say whether their decision is the same one I would have made. If they had chosen to euth, then I would say the exact same thing.

What I can tell you, though, is after being in the horse business my entire life, I've had to have my share of horses put down over the years. It is _never_ the easy way out. Often, it is the _better_ way out for the horse, but it is never _easy_. Anyone who says otherwise is, IMHO, a heartless *******.

As for the personal situation and how the horse ended up this way, I don't know the story. All that has been posted here is hearsay and may or may not be even remotely accurate. Infection from an injection is something that can happen to anyone regardless of what they are injecting or why. The chances are minimized by taking proper precautions, but the risk is still there. Unless I hear from the actual horse owner and/or the actual treating vet then I will still feel sorry for both the horse and the owners. It is likely going to be a long, possibly painful, and probably expensive healing process. I just hope there are no further complications and the horse heals up well and as quickly as possible.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

The FB page from the vet clinic that originally posted all the pictures basically said that the horse was injected with IM Banamine when he presented colic symptoms. Within 24 hours the horse presented a hard, hot lump at the injection site, had an elevated temperature, was listless, etc.. and was taken to the vet clinic.
The vets ultrasounded (there's also a picture of the ultrasound, it's pretty neat) and found an abcess with air bubbles, characteristic of a Clostridial Myositis infection, which is treated by lancing the abscess to expose it to oxygen and a lot of antibiotics. They began treatment, but because of how aggressive this infection is, it spread to his whole neck and they ultrasounded and lanced to follow it. Eventually the horse does end up home.

IM Banamine, Antihistamines, etc.. all are more prone to this infection (due to their inflammatory nature), ESPECIALLY IM Banamine (which should not ever be given IM because of this infection)!!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I ran out of time to ETA and lost my whole message 

Anyways.. to those making statements about the horse getting "performance enhancing drugs" or "winning a ribbon". Is this based on actual fact, or just inflammatory internet hearsay??

A lot of people don't know about IM Banamine causing CM infections. These people are apparently some of those. Oh well, **** happens. At least they caught it fast and had the horse at the vet within 36 hours!! How many people on the forum would have honestly even called a vet at that point??
And compared to some pictures I've seen where they've chased the CM infection **** near around the whole horse, this is mild. I'm sure had the infection spread beyond a certain point, they would have put the horse down. But it is a treatable disease, even though the horse will have a long recovery.
Just like some people would do a colic surgery, and others wouldn't. IMO I've dealt with far worse and similarly life threatening infections. Did it cost a lot of money? Yup. Was it stupid to keep the horses alive? Probably, but they are now and still out living fulfilling lives with no lingering side effects, even after lengthy rehabs. I think the same will happen for this horse, and I don't think anyone in Bend is ever going to give an IM Banamine shot ever again!!


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## WesternBella (Jan 7, 2012)

myhorsesonador said:


> It was posted on a privet FB page, then it got out. How would you like it if I took one of your photos, and spread it all over the internet, for people to say things about?


If you are posting any picture on the Internet (whether it's on a private facebook page or on a public forum) it is for everyone to view and use no matter what you say.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Ok well since the FB link got removed, it's Bend Equine Medical Center and their FB page is public. All the info "from the horse's mouth" is on there.


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## Oxer (Jul 9, 2010)

thank you for explaining some of this, anebel. minus the mind numbing banter at the beginning of this thread, I actually managed to learned something!


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Sometimes horses need to be treated for serious conditions, and the treatment isn't always going to be pretty. That doesn't mean the horse is better off being put down. 

It seems a lot of people call 'PTS' and 'suffering' whenever there is any invasive treatment, and maybe it has something to do with our own squeamishness, not so much with the procedure's medical merits at all. 

To me, that picture is quite shocking, but not gross, and I'm sure the horse's pain is managed and he is being kept as comfortable as possible all the way through.


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## PhelanVelvel (Jan 6, 2012)

Everything has to be taken on an individual, case-by-case basis. I would not say that I would rather put my animal to sleep than subject them to X when all I know about X is a single photograph of the affected area with some cuts and tubing. It's like looking at a brain operation at the moment the saw is going through the skull and saying it's not worth it. If there is a treatment that has a high success rate with SOME suffering, and the animal is healthy in almost every other way, and has its whole life ahead of it, and so on, I will take the treatment with some suffering! In my opinion, it's better than being dead.

It depends upon how you look at things. Euthanasia is a lot more daunting if you don't think your animal will go frolic in paradise when the moment is past... Sometimes earthly suffering in order to make it to tomorrow is worth it. I know very little about this horse's situation. What I do know is that I assess things based on more than shock factor. I feel puzzled as to why some automatically say they would rather euthanise than do something like this when even people go through procedures and treatments that are exceptionally painful and ugly in order to get well. No, the animal cannot make the choice for themselves, but the knee-jerk reaction of "I wouldn't do that to my horse, it's horrible. I would rather end their life" perplexes me. I just personally don't see how gashes and tubing are somehow worse than death as long as they can lead to a good recovery. Maybe the horse needed a lot of painkillers and felt uncomfortable for a while. Why does that mean they're better off dead? I did read the posts in this thread, and as I understand it, this treatment could have been avoided entirely, but I'm speaking on the treatment itself.


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

myhorsesonador said:


> I know the girl that owns this horse, and I doubt she would be very happy about you posting it here, to get peoples opinion on it.


I do not know them nor did I name them. I did NOT ask for opinions on it either simply used it as a reference to help those reading the thread to understand what kind of treatment I was talking about. I did also look for another picture BEFORE reusing that one but non showed the proper value of the situation in this photo. I also did not claim it to be my picture.



myhorsesonador said:


> It was posted on a privet FB page, then it got out. How would you like it if I took one of your photos, and spread it all over the internet, for people to say things about?


Once the image it out and on the internet without a copywrite is it free game. Go ahead and try to spread my pictures around you wont get very far before realizing they already are. Three of MY tattoo designs are under someone else claim because I didnt copywrite/watermark them.



AlexS said:


> The real owner has not been identified, however this photo is all over FB as the owner did this to the horse drugging it for competition.
> 
> If you feel sorry for the owner in this situation, then I feel sorry for you. Maybe you don't know the whole story?


Banamine is a pain reliever and yes it might have been administered to help a horse get through a competition for a minor discomfort it had does not automatically mean that it was done deliberately to get better show results. I do not know if you know something more on this then I do but please do not assume that it is the owner trying to make a buck. As for someone taking it and saying it is the result of a person trying to get ahead...I have a friend that had gotten a rescue horses that had only been kept in a stall and while turned out got spooked and ran through a fence cutting itself up pretty badly. A PETA advocate took it and said that my friend (who was also in the picture) ran the horse through the fence while attempting to ride it in an emaciated state, saying they saw it all happen.



Oxer said:


> thank you for explaining some of this, anebel. minus the mind numbing banter at the beginning of this thread, I actually managed to learned something!


If this is about the first post I did warn that it was a rant and I also would like to thank anebel for explaining some of the finer details about the situation, that no I was not fully apprised to.


As for the post in general there are still those posting about how it is about putting a horse to sleep when it is not and yes if the cercomstances made euthanasia a better option I would rather see that path taken HOWEVER *This post is about the lack of care from those who supposedly love horses for the fact that something that is part of loving a horse is 'upsetting' to them* It is that people would rather not have to deal with the bad because it interrupts their idea of the pretty little horse. One person on the post I originally got this from even said "wow I am on this site because I love to see the beautiful pictures of horses but I am glad I read all the comments explaining what this is, thank you." it is people that are willing to take the time to see something gross or upsetting and learn about it instead of those who just call abuse/neglect because they dont like what they see and wont to know anything else about it.

For those who are interested this is a picture of the horse during recovery taken from the Bend Equine Medical Center's fb page


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

While banamine dose promote such bacteria, and yes they have something in the injection its self to help prevent it, this is something that CAN occur with ANY INJECTION OR PUNCTURE SITE. Banamine is suppose to be IV/IM and says as much on the label however no more then 5ml(if i remember correctly) of any injection should be given IM. 

I have seen more reported cases, and actually seen one worse then this, from Butte being injected IM when it something that was never intended IM, it is oral or IV only but some do not know this. This also comes from people injecting at the wrong site simply because they are inexperienced or by accident all together.


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## muumi (Oct 17, 2011)

Nuala said:


> As for the post in general there are still those posting about how it is about putting a horse to sleep when it is not and yes if the cercomstances made euthanasia a better option I would rather see that path taken HOWEVER *This post is about the lack of care from those who supposedly love horses for the fact that something that is part of loving a horse is 'upsetting' to them* It is that people would rather not have to deal with the bad because it interrupts their idea of the pretty little horse. One person on the post I originally got this from even said "wow I am on this site because I love to see the beautiful pictures of horses but I am glad I read all the comments explaining what this is, thank you." it is people that are willing to take the time to see something gross or upsetting and learn about it instead of those who just call abuse/neglect because they dont like what they see and wont to know anything else about it.


I don't understand you now... I think the euthanasia debate speaks directly to your issue about people only liking the pretty/not wanting to deal with the bad. I don't understand what responses you want on this thread...


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

It's called being a responsible owner of any animal. It should never be about what is easiest for us, but what is in their (animals) best interest, even if it means euthanasia.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

If an owner has the time and money to put into trying medically to make an animal well, that's their business.

If an owner doesn't have the time and money to put into trying medically to make an animal well and opts for euthanasia, again, that's _their_ business.

I thought Barbaro's owners did far too much and already knew what the outcome was going to be, but it wasn't my place to tell them to put him down without trying. On the reverse side, it's not up to any of us to tell an owner they HAVE to throw thousands of dollars into their animal on the off chance it might get better.

Each of us has to determine what's best for our circumstances and go from there. If I were to lose my farm to foreclosure or couldn't feed the other animals in my care because I opted for high dollar medical treatment for another one, how is that being responsible? The needs of the many outweigh those of the few.


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

I never meant to imply this particular horse should or should not be put down. I was merely stating that we, as horse owners, should not think along the lines of "I'm not going to put my horse down because I'll miss him/her to much(or whatever the reason)" If that is the better option for the horse, we have a responsibility to follow through. If the owner of this horse thought this procedure was in the best interest of the horse, then okay. Who am i to judge that decision? I don't. I'm just reminding everyone that holding their best interest should come first.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I wasn't targeting you, wetrain. My post just came after yours. :wink:

I think too many people get on the 'must save at all costs' bandwagon sometimes, when an animal would be better off euthed. The people who want to put a prosthetic limb on a horse and beg for donations come to mind. :-x

As adults we have to look at _all_ the factors, not just what we might personally want. Sometimes the decision to euth has to be made even if there's a chance the animal can be saved, because the monetary cost would be too prohibitive. Anyone who would deliberately bankrupt themselves for an animal isn't someone I'd consider responsible.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Nuala said:


> While banamine dose promote such bacteria, and yes they have something in the injection its self to help prevent it, this is something that CAN occur with ANY INJECTION OR PUNCTURE SITE. Banamine is suppose to be IV/IM and says as much on the label however no more then 5ml(if i remember correctly) of any injection should be given IM.
> 
> I have seen more reported cases, and actually seen one worse then this, from Butte being injected IM when it something that was never intended IM, it is oral or IV only but some do not know this. This also comes from people injecting at the wrong site simply because they are inexperienced or by accident all together.


While some of this is correct, much is ill informed.

CM infections are NOT due to a horse owner being neglectful and not addressing an existing infection. CM lives on the horse's skin and can be on a needle as well and can be drawn into the muscle by an injection with symptoms beginning within 24 hours! Yes it can occur with any injection, but it is far more likely to occur with more irritating substances - banamine, ivermectin and anti-histamines being the top culprits.
CM does NOT occur by injecting in the "wrong site" NOR will it occur by injecting more than 5ccs - those will both have different consequences, including abscesses not related to CM. Injecting a substance not labelled for IM will also not automatically result in a CM injection, there are other consequences. 
CM injections can happen with a clean needle, clean syringe, clean injection site and proper storage of the injectable. It is the nature of Banamine, ivermectin and the anti-histamines that cause such a high incidence of CM injections when compared to other injectables, although there is still a possibility with any injection. Improperly cleaning the site, re using needles and improperly storing injectables all up the possibility of a CM infection.


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## PhelanVelvel (Jan 6, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> I wasn't targeting you, wetrain. My post just came after yours. :wink:
> 
> I think too many people get on the 'must save at all costs' bandwagon sometimes, when an animal would be better off euthed. The people who want to put a prosthetic limb on a horse and beg for donations come to mind. :-x
> 
> As adults we have to look at _all_ the factors, not just what we might personally want. Sometimes the decision to euth has to be made even if there's a chance the animal can be saved, because the monetary cost would be too prohibitive. Anyone who would deliberately bankrupt themselves for an animal isn't someone I'd consider responsible.


I understand that there are times when euthanasia is really the best option. Sometimes an animal will not recover, and it's not fair to have them suffer if they will never get back to their happy, healthy, normal selves. I just saw people saying they would not subject their horse to that, but really, how can you make a judgement based on one picture? If the procedure would allow them to get back to normal in a reasonable amount of time, why would it be better to euthanise them? I didn't see anyone saying "That looks far too expensive to be practical", it seemed like people were looking at it as torturous, that they wouldn't put their horse through that, and that death would be better, when I don't think the treatment looks quite that bad. I am certainly not on the "must save at all costs" bandwagon, but I'm not on the "must euthanise before the animal goes through any discomfort whatsoever" bandwagon, either.

And hey, when technology improves, I don't doubt that prosthetic limbs for horses will be doable and sane. Some of the prosthetic hands for people nowadays are very sophisticated, operating off of electrical impulses, allowing control of individual fingers, allowing control of how gentle or firm the grasp is. It's just a matter of time, really, for it to be developed to the point that you can apply the technology to any animal using less money.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

PhelanVelvel said:


> It's just a matter of time, really, for it to be developed to the point that you can apply the technology to any animal using less money.


You're not taking the horse's physiology into consideration. People don't need their hands in order walk, but a horse needs its feet and legs.

Even with a good prosthetic the other three limbs are going to take the brunt of the weight because the horse can't FEEL the prosthetic, and won't trust it enough to place his/her weight squarely on it. Which means the animal will eventually break down from the uneven weight distribution.

If someone wants to try it on their own horse and pays for it with their own money, I say have at it. Where I have the problem is them expecting _other_ people to cough up the money to 'save' the animal. 

Rescues, even more than individual owners, need to be able to make rational, responsible decisions based on what's best for ALL their charges, not just one.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

To me it would also depend on how old the horse was. Some old horses might not recover from the surgery and all the stress. While young horses seem to heal quicker and bounce back.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I have to agree with SpeedRacer on this one. Putting a prosthetic leg on a horse is bad enough. *The horse will suffer.* Expecting me to pay for it and using emotional blackmail to get the money is immoral. 
Think of all the healthy animals that are put down or shipped to Mexican slaughter houses that could be saved with that same money.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Anyways.. to those making statements about the horse getting "performance enhancing drugs" or "winning a ribbon". Is this based on actual fact, or just inflammatory internet hearsay??


I was fairly confident I knew where I got my information from - however I can't find it now, so I guess it was taken down/removed. 

As the info given here comes from the vets site, I stand corrected and am sorry for the bad information.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

However-going back to another thread about routinely giving horses Im Adequan and other injections on a regular basis-this is exactly why, unless I HAVE to, I do not give injections to anything! WE (and horses, cows, pigs, etc) have skin for a reason. As soon as you breech that layer, there is ALWAYS a risk. Perhaps sometimes more than others, but the risk certainly is greater than had you NOT given the injection. That cannot be argued, IMO. I certainly am not one of those nurses who medicate for every little ache.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Oh-and Sonador-how in the world would you ever think, unless someone gave hints.....anyone could identify this horse anyway? Pretty generic picture that could be ANY brown/bay horse, IMO. No reason to get your panties in a wad. Maybe sometime down the road by the scars......


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

wetrain17 said:


> It's called being a responsible owner of any animal. It should never be about what is easiest for us, but what is in their (animals) best interest, even if it means euthanasia.


The debate of wither or not euthanasia was an option was never actually part of the original rant. It was only brought up because of those posting on the picture saying "this poor horse this is cruel the thing should just be put down" without know anything else even though the information HAD been provided by others commenting. 

Yes the fact that some say rather put my horse to sleep then see them like this is part of the "I dont want to see the bad" but it is those how say "stop posting things like this its too icky for us" that this was going after. Those who say "oh well love animals" but dont want to face the whole sheet of music.


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

And No I am not trying to say that anyone should be forced into spending thousands of dollors on a horse if they do not have it. yes the decision is the owners and that it again not the point of this thread and yes there is a time and a place to discuss which of the other option may or may not have been better. I could at this moment not afford such a procedure without a payment plan which most vets are willing to set up if it is needed simply because they would rather the care of the animal be first then their pockets be full. However that being said many are not willing to even contemplate such an arrangement which does put more horses at the risk of being put down when it is not something so severe.

I was glad that others were able to explain this procedure better then I could have bother here on the post I originally got it from. 

I was probably most upset that those who were commenting about how upsetting it is or gross or saying WTF thats just wrong did so without taking the time to learn what they were looking at and doing so when they were not forced to look at the picture in the first place that can either remove the post from their news feed, learn what it was about or unlike the page that was posting it in the first place. 
I hope that everyone on here can at least understand that sometimes ugly things happen to beautiful and good horses that we have to deal with. Colic, abscesses, worms, mange, lacerations/gashes from fences/debris, rain rot, founder, etc are all part of owning a horse. I am doing my best to learn everything I can so that I can handle a bad situation with my horses wither it is treating them or euthanizing them.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Nuala said:


> Yes the fact that some say rather put my horse to sleep then see them like this is part of the "I dont want to see the bad" but it is those how say "stop posting things like this its too icky for us" that this was going after. Those who say "oh well love animals" but dont want to face the whole sheet of music.


 
I don't want to see the "bad"; I have lived the "bad"

I have been ****ed on and s*** on.
I have been bit and kicked.
I have soaked hooves in 0 degree weather and 100
I have walked a colicky horse in a blizzard and a monsoon.
I have been slimed and snotted on.
I have spent the night in the barn on more occasions that I care to remember sitting up with a sick horse.
I have stuck my fingers in places I wish I could forget.
I have been stepped on and stomped on.
I have fallen off and been thrown off embarrassingly too often.
I have scrubbed and “doctored” wounds, both minor and major.
I have changed bandages and wrapped legs on very irritable animals.
I have packed holes where teeth used to be, with fingers dodging the teeth still there.
I have broken my arms and legs, thankfully not at the same time.
I have broken my eardrum.
I have looked hysterically for a missing horse.
I have dealt with fungus and mold and mites and rot, bacteria and viruses.
I have seen enough puss to last me a lifetime.
I have filled a stadium with manure, one wheelbarrow at a time.
I have fed my horse even before I thought about feeding myself.
I have emptied enough frozen water buckets to fill my lake and skate on it.
I have sat hours in the pouring rain trying to load a horse in the trailer, and did not shoot it.
I have been so cold I thought my hands and feet would fall off.
I have been so hot, I could not move.
I have ruined more clothes than I can afford.
I have been so dirty I thought I would never come clean.
I have spent an obscene amount of money.

And I have cried inconsolably at the grave of every one that is gone.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Taffy, that is beautiful!


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## PhelanVelvel (Jan 6, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> You're not taking the horse's physiology into consideration. People don't need their hands in order walk, but a horse needs its feet and legs.
> 
> Even with a good prosthetic the other three limbs are going to take the brunt of the weight because the horse can't FEEL the prosthetic, and won't trust it enough to place his/her weight squarely on it. Which means the animal will eventually break down from the uneven weight distribution.


I was speaking theoretically here. Note that I said "a matter of time before the technology is developed". >_< As in, I would not really recommend using a "prosthetic leg" on a horse right now. What I'm talking about is not here today. I'm talking about a fully functioning, articulate, myoelectric, sensory feedback included, prosthetic leg. There will be a time when such a thing is a reality. To say that this will never be a possibility is naive. People tend to forget that technology progresses at an exponential rate. It's not madness to suggest a good prosthetic limb for a horse will be developed. Yes, we are still developing prosthetic limbs for humans, but what I'm saying is that at some point we will be so proficient at this technology that we will be able to apply it to animals, including horses. We will be able to make them work with their physiology. It was merely a comment on what the future can hold for injured horses. That's just how I think, I'm always looking to the future and imagining how technology will work in different areas.



Celeste said:


> I have to agree with SpeedRacer on this one. Putting a prosthetic leg on a horse is bad enough. *The horse will suffer.* Expecting me to pay for it and using emotional blackmail to get the money is immoral.
> Think of all the healthy animals that are put down or shipped to Mexican slaughter houses that could be saved with that same money.


I feel like people don't actually read what I said. First I said "I do not see how this procedure is worse than death for a horse," then people say that "Oh, some people just want to do ANYTHING to keep the horse alive, even if they have no chance of recovery." Now I'm saying "Prosthetic limbs right now are not feasible, but I do believe they will be in the future when the technology has developed sufficiently." And people are arguing against me like I ever advocated today's equine prosthetic limbs. :/


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Phelan, the part you are missing from Speed's post is that the horse cannot FEEL the fake leg. People know there is something to support them when they take a step. It is not being argued that more sophisticated technology will not be developed. The horse still wouldn't have feeling in the "limb." Dogs and cats are not built like the horse, they will not break down by walking primarily on three legs. A horse will. So while there will certainly be wonderful prosthetics eventually, the horse is simply not a good candidate for them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> While some of this is correct, much is ill informed.
> 
> CM infections are NOT due to a horse owner being neglectful and not addressing an existing infection. CM lives on the horse's skin and can be on a needle as well and can be drawn into the muscle by an injection with symptoms beginning within 24 hours! Yes it can occur with any injection, but it is far more likely to occur with more irritating substances - banamine, ivermectin and anti-histamines being the top culprits.
> CM does NOT occur by injecting in the "wrong site" NOR will it occur by injecting more than 5ccs - those will both have different consequences, including abscesses not related to CM. Injecting a substance not labelled for IM will also not automatically result in a CM injection, there are other consequences.
> CM injections can happen with a clean needle, clean syringe, clean injection site and proper storage of the injectable. It is the nature of Banamine, ivermectin and the anti-histamines that cause such a high incidence of CM injections when compared to other injectables, although there is still a possibility with any injection. Improperly cleaning the site, re using needles and improperly storing injectables all up the possibility of a CM infection.





Nuala said:


> While banamine dose promote such bacteria, and yes they have something in the injection its self to help prevent it, this is something that CAN occur with ANY INJECTION OR PUNCTURE SITE. Banamine is suppose to be IV/IM and says as much on the label *however no more then 5ml(if i remember correctly) of any injection should be given IM*.
> 
> I have seen more reported cases, and actually seen one worse then this, from Butte being injected IM when it something that was never intended IM, it is oral or IV only but some do not know this. This also comes from people injecting at the wrong site simply because they are inexperienced or by accident all together.


"This is probably clostridial myonecrosis, or gas gangrene in the muscle. It can come from any penetrating wound, including needle punctures. It is more associated with injecting large amounts of fluid (5 + mL) than with just banamine to my knowledge." This is my understanding as well. 

To my understanding anytime a large amount ( greater than 5cc ) of any medication is injected in one muscle... infections can happen from the damage to the muscle and bacteria. This being that NO it is not necessarily true that administering "10ml of banamine" *vet page* is was actually caused the infection however it does still heighten the chances of contracting it. If you read again I say that no more then 5 *should* be administered IM.

"This is clostridia or gas gangrene. It is an aerobic Bacteria meaning it only grows where there is no oxygen. They cut the slits into the flesh to allow oxygen into the muscle to stop the growth. Any injection or puncture type injury can cause this bacteria to grow. Banamines makeup makes it highly conducive to growing clostridia and they put formaldehyde in Banamine to try and reduce its growth. The bacteria grows and produces spores. These spores release gas. The skin of the horse will swell from the gas spores and feels like rice crispies under the skin. The horse becomes very ill within only a few hours. The only cure for the bacterial infection is to create these "air holes" in the muscle to stop the spore growth" 

This indicates that although banamine does not CAUSE it does, as I said, promote its growth, or more accurately what they have done *adding formaldehyde* to reduce the chances of growth conducive to the chemical makeup of Banamine. 

I hope this helps to clear up my original post about this. And thank you for explaining more in-depth about the causes and consequences of each different variable. Yes my knowledge is a collection of constant data from several different sources including veterinary studies. I admit those studies were not recent I am apt to think that there are new more accurate understandings.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Phelan, the technology we have isn't anywhere close to a prosthetic mimicking the feeling of an actual limb. There are nerve bundles that would have to be artificially duplicated and tied into the existing nerves. 

The body is such a complex organism that even when the technology is developed for humans, it will be lightyears past that time before it'd be feasible to develop it for nonhumans. Not to mention, it'll be prohibitively expensive so it may as well not have been developed at all for animals.

A prosthetic, however sophisticated, will still be a poor substitute to the real thing, especially for horses because of the way they're designed.


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## PhelanVelvel (Jan 6, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> Phelan, the technology we have isn't anywhere close to a prosthetic mimicking the feeling of an actual limb. There are nerve bundles that would have to be artificially duplicated and tied into the existing nerves.
> 
> The body is such a complex organism that even when the technology is developed for humans, it will be lightyears past that time before it'd be feasible to develop it for nonhumans. Not to mention, it'll be prohibitively expensive so it may as well not have been developed at all for animals.
> 
> A prosthetic, however sophisticated, will still be a poor substitute to the real thing, especially for horses because of the way they're designed.


The last thing I'm saying on the matter is that SOMEDAY, the technology will be available. At some point prosthetics will be so sophisticated that they will be indistinguishable from the real thing. That day is not today or tomorrow. It was a futurist comment. I'm thinking with Moore's Law in mind. I'm thinking about years away. It was a contemplative remark, it is so narrow-minded to imagine that technology will never be good enough to give a horse a limb it can use. It seems like people are so stuck on the idea that because TODAY's limbs do not work for horses, they can NEVER work for horses. Your last statement just makes me confused. I'm saying that someday in the future we will be able to replicate the horse's limb so well on such a small scale that it will mimic their biological leg well enough for them to use it. But you're saying no level of sophistication would be good enough. There is a level of sophistication that will be good enough, we just haven't reached it.



riccil0ve said:


> Phelan, the part you are missing from Speed's post is that the horse cannot FEEL the fake leg. People know there is something to support them when they take a step. It is not being argued that more sophisticated technology will not be developed. The horse still wouldn't have feeling in the "limb." Dogs and cats are not built like the horse, they will not break down by walking primarily on three legs. A horse will. So while there will certainly be wonderful prosthetics eventually, the horse is simply not a good candidate for them.


Someday there will be a limb that will support them as well as their biological legs do, and they will be able to feel it. They keyword being "someday". I regret making a futurist comment when people are stuck thinking in the scope of today's technology. Think about where we were technologically a hundred years ago. Really consider that. There were no computers, their idea of a prosthetic limb was so crude it's hardly worth calling a prosthetic when you compare to today's developments in the field. It doesn't matter, it's one of those "agree to disagree" things. I have my opinion on where technology will go, and others have theirs.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If the technology is going to be developed, research will have to be driven by the hope that it will be a profitable venture. How many people would spend thousands of dollars for a prosthetic device for their horse? And how do you justify the slaughter/euthanasia of young healthy horses that could do that horse's job better than he will be able to do it with the prosthesis? And how many threads do we read about people that won't even call their vet out when the animal is half dead? The economics of the situation is very likely to make this project dead in the water.


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## mfed58 (Sep 15, 2010)

Once again returning to the primary issue and point of this thread.... while this is very hard to look at, especially for most of us horse people, it isn't quite as serious as it appears, and in fact is relieving the horse of some of it's pain, while allowing the chlostridia to dissipate and heal. There is absolutely no need to even begin to think of putting the horse down. I would do this for my horse in a heart bea,knowing full well that he will continue with just as healthy a life as if this had never happened. Having said this, I must admit that I have enjoyed reading this entire thread. And I do fully agree.... Veterinary, and especially Equine medicine, has come so very far in the last two decades. I'm excited to see what the future holds. NOt sure where to stand onthe prosthetics issue.... just doesn't seem very plausable to me. But I am certain we will be amazed someday! Enjoy the ride, and cherish the journey!


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

mfed58 said:


> Once again returning to the primary issue and point of this thread.... while this is very hard to look at, especially for most of us horse people, it isn't quite as serious as it appears, and in fact is relieving the horse of some of it's pain, while allowing the chlostridia to dissipate and heal. There is absolutely no need to even begin to think of putting the horse down. I would do this for my horse in a heart bea,knowing full well that he will continue with just as healthy a life as if this had never happened. Having said this, I must admit that I have enjoyed reading this entire thread. And I do fully agree.... Veterinary, and especially Equine medicine, has come so very far in the last two decades. I'm excited to see what the future holds. NOt sure where to stand onthe prosthetics issue.... just doesn't seem very plausable to me. But I am certain we will be amazed someday! Enjoy the ride, and cherish the journey!


I wish I could like this 100 times. This is very well said and in a good tone as well. Thank you so much for this post.


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## mfed58 (Sep 15, 2010)

Thank you Nuala. I am so on your side on this one, and I very much appreciate this thread. When I showed my Sonny Boy that he could trust me, and that I would take care of him, I made a promise that I would do exactly that, to the tenth degree. And that means educating myself too! Thank you!


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

mfed58 said:


> Thank you Nuala. I am so on your side on this one, and I very much appreciate this thread. When I showed my Sonny Boy that he could trust me, and that I would take care of him, I made a promise that I would do exactly that, to the tenth degree. And that means educating myself too! Thank you!


Lol I have a QH named Sonny!!! He is the same way. They had a bit that was too small for him and under fed him, but he is a hard keeper, and hadnt trimmed him in so long I was surprised he could walk. He is the sweetest and extremely protective of me but he thinks he is a Pasture Puff only kind of horse....lol


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