# Are you pro-slaughter? POLL



## Golden Horse

I'm pro, the lesser of two evils. I'm also pro not needing to have slaughter, but you need to find a way of vastly reducing numbers befor ethat can happen.


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## lacyloo

I vote that we change the Title, "Horse Slaughter" to "Equine processing". 
Just as we would say for any livestock. 
I don't see the point in letting a bunch of lame/older/aggressive horses sit in a pasture to live out their lives heavily medicated or left to suffer. _ 
Euthanize or Auction. 

_So yes, Pro.


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## Kimmylikestojump

I'm Pro-Slaughter.


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## bsms

I voted yes, largely because I think it is a choice between being pro-"US Slaughter" or pro-"Send 'em to Mexico Slaughter". I prefer to keep it local and keep it regulated.


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## Silent one

Pro here, for lots of reasons already wonderfully expressed on this forum by others.


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## maura

Nope, I refuse to call myself pro-slaughter. It's not like I get up in the morning and say, "Geez, I'm bored. Maybe I'll go kill some horses, that'll be fun and good clean entertainment. Yeah, that's it. I just really like killing horses." 

I am a realist that accepts that for now; responsible, regulated slaughter is a sad necessity until we change attitudes about breeding. 

I don't consider that pro-slaughter.


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## bubba13

Anti-alternative. Not pro-slaughter. Not voting.


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## FreeDestiny

I think I'm on a side of, I don't like the idea of slaughter, but I'd rather it than horses starve or be neglected. So I'm neither pro nor anti-slaughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess

I am anti-slaughter in large part because it, in every case I've witnessed, is inhumane. Morally I can not support it.


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## demonwolfmoon

I dislike the wording utilized in the poll, and I choose not to vote because of it. The word "slaughter" is used in lieu of the more acceptable "processing" to make it seem more reprehensible.
It's kind of like calling it "pro-abortion" instead of "pro-choice" xD
I don't think anyone is PRO ABORTION....and I don't think people in general are pro SLAUGHTER...but people can sympathize or at least comprehend that there are circumstances in which decisions which we might personally find distasteful may be warranted or at least, understandable...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

What BSMS said ^^. 

I detest the need for it, but I also am a realist and without it, we're in deep guano. And NOWHERE else is as careful about the conditions under which we slaughter animals as the U.S. 

And for whomever wanted to call it Processing rather than Slaughter, no let's don't try to make it P.C. and sugar coat it til we don't know what we're talking about. Call a spade a spade, not a lady shovel. We are talking about killing horses, not giving them perms and pedicures.


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## Druydess

Very true DA- it is what it is.


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## Lonestar22

I am pro slaughter. Not matter what you call it, its the same stuff. If we didnt kill off the old, crippled, unwanted horses then we would have overpopulation llike we do now. That's why the horse economy is in the crapper. There are to many horses and not enough people to care for them. 

You can live in your fairy tale "people with stop breeding" world. I choose to live in the real world where breeders dont stop, horses die of starvation and slaughter is a saving grace for dying horses and people alike.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

The problem with trying to control things on the breeding side is that horses live 20-30+ years. Some of our current population was bred in the 80s. It is tough to judge demand 25 years out.

I didn't own a horse in 2000, but I heard it was a seller's market back then. How many 10-12 year old horses do we have bred at a time when it looked like limitless homes? BTW - my three are 11-14 years old, bred from 1997-2000, one wild. How many people breeding think about how many horses will be available 15 years later, or care?

The "product" has a very long self life, and most buyers are looking for something under 15. I don't like it, but how many people buy a horse for their daughter when she is 10, and don't know what to do with it when she is 19, in college, and has lost interest in horses? The unhappy reality is that the horse may be 18, have 10+ years of useful riding available, and more years of life - and have very few willing to even consider him.

I don't like slaughter, and I like a lot of horse owners and buyers even less, but I don't see how I can change either.


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## Shasta1981

demonwolfmoon said:


> I dislike the wording utilized in the poll, and I choose not to vote because of it. The word "slaughter" is used in lieu of the more acceptable "processing" to make it seem more reprehensible.
> It's kind of like calling it "pro-abortion" instead of "pro-choice" xD
> I don't think anyone is PRO ABORTION....and I don't think people in general are pro SLAUGHTER...but people can sympathize or at least comprehend that there are circumstances in which decisions which we might personally find distasteful may be warranted or at least, understandable...


That goes both ways, demon. Quite frankly, I've never seen a slaughter house (for cows, chickens or any other animal) referred to as a "processing plant" except in annual reports. Im not sure why people are arguing that its described differently for horses?

Im neither of these. Im not happy with the status quo and not happy with any alternatives put out there. I'm just not sure what the answer is. It sucks.


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## Lonestar22

I look at it this way....

Not everyone is going to feed and care for old, crippled, useless horses. There are not enough homes to take them in. I would much rather see that horse go to some use instead of wasting away. Slaughter makes those horses useful, instead of a burden.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS

I personally don't think it matters what you call it - I am pro slaughter.


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## CLaPorte432

I think this is a good thread. 

I don't like the thought of horses being slaughtered. But I don't like the thought of cows being slaughtered either. I'd prefer to wear rose colored glassed. But I still eat meat.

But, I would prefer to see a horse sent to slaughter and killed within a matter of minutes as opposed to months of suffered on little to no food/water.

People just don't know what to do with the 30 year old, useless, lame, arthritic horse. Horse retirement homes can't take them all. 

But, then again I think there should difference between a "pet" horse and a "slaughter" horse. Example. We give our horses shots and deworm them. Would you want to injest that stuff? I wouldn't. Therefore if we are going to eat horse meat in the US, I would rather see horses bred for meat like we breed meat cows as opposed to using our pet horses.

Then again, this isn't a perfect world.

I guess I'm pro-slaughter. As long as it's done correctly and as humanely as possible.


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## Endiku

Also not voting.

I am not pro slaughter or anti slaughter. I do not like the idea of killing any animal, especially inhumanely, but I also do not like the idea of allowing untrained 15,16,17 year old horses or badly build unsound two year olds to be 'saved' when there are thousands of hard working, strong, honest horses out there being abused or neglected. But...like many have said- our world is not fair, nor is it kind. If the horses that are being slaughtered are going towards feeding people, then I guess thats a better purpose than just sitting around waiting for nothing.


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## goneriding

I personally do not like my options being taken away from me making a choice. Right wrong or indifferent, it is a choice that I should be able to make for my personal reasons without explanation. In a perfect world there would be no need for horses being slaughtered but we do not live in a perfect world. I do not favor slaughter but looking at the situation as a whole, unfortunately there has to be an option.


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## fire walker TWH

*fence rider*

Well, I did something I knew would bother me, but I felt like it was my duty as a horse lover, to learn as much as I could... so I decided to Google horse slaughter. Finding that there is more than one way they employ to kill horses then I decided to Youtube it. How could I offer an opinion without knowing more about the subject? I feel now that I have a opinion that is worth writing. I'm sorry but I think for now I'm straddling the fence, here is why.... I always assumed the kill at the slaughter houses was fast . However I have learned that due to the techniques used it is not. They don't use lethal injection due to contaminating the meat, and as far as I know they don't use gas but for what reason I do not know. They do use a bolt gun or 22, both of which are seriously ineffective. I understand the need for horse meat for consumption, I understand the economics of slaughtering horses, I understand it is better in some cases for horses that are injured or old.... but why cant it be done humanly???? If you have an opinion on horse slaughter you should look this information up for yourself, you should watch the horrid videos of each technique to understand all aspects of it. *takes a deep breath* I vote yes to slaughter.... but I vote a more human way be found with strict laws enforcing it. If a more human way is not found, and no laws to back it up, then I would vote a profound NO. The horses I viewed knew they were going to die, knew they needed to escape but could not do it. Some of them woke up after being shot. Not to mention the way these horses are trailer ed to the processing plants. All of you who say yes or no to horse slaughter need to all agree to help do something about the way these horses are killed and trailer ed. Contact your local representative, contact your mayor. post about it everywhere you can think to do so.This is my first post about this but I have conviction on it and I plan to start telling anyone who will listen, the way they are killed is horrible and needs to stop.


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## bubba13

A .22 and a captive bolt gun are both instantaneous and humane ways to die and are accepted forms of euthanasia by the American Association of Equine Practitioners and the American Veterinary Medicine Association. The problem comes when the animals' heads are not properly restrained,, as in some but not all plants. If the aim is good and the horse is still, this is considered for horses, actually, to be the quickest and kindest death--over lethal injection, in fact.


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## Celeste

A gun to the head is humane in a down, dying horse if performed by a shooting expert with knowledge of equine anatomy. I have seen it done in a horse with a broken leg that could not be euthanized with injection due to the horse breaking its leg in the middle of nowhere. (Euthanasia injection must not be used in animals that cannot be buried properly due to environmental concerns and laws.) The problem is that these slaughter horses are alert, moving, healthy horses. They are terrified if their head is restrained and tortured if it is not.


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## Clava

bubba13 said:


> A .22 and a captive bolt gun are both instantaneous and humane ways to die and are accepted forms of euthanasia by the American Association of Equine Practitioners and the American Veterinary Medicine Association. The problem comes when the animals' heads are not properly restrained,, as in some but not all plants. If the aim is good and the horse is still, this is considered for horses, actually, to be the quickest and kindest death--over lethal injection, in fact.


 
Totally agree, my arab was pts this way infront of me.

There are worse ends for a horse than going to slaughter.


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## Golden Horse

But this is why we need proper facilities that are designed for horses, and more importantly trained personnel, then you can get a quick and stress free action.

With people who are used to handling horses, and a skilled person handling the gun or the bolt a horse doesn't need to stand still for that long, aim and fire is quick.

I know from experience that my current vet, is an expert at giving shots, the first horse I had him come to see here was a 10 month old colt, not halter broken, but needing gelding like YESTERDAY! We got a halter in the boy, got him in a corner and the sedative was in a vein and he was relaxing before anyone knew what was happening! He didn't faff about, just waited until he saw his chance and went for it!


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## Speed Racer

I'm not so much PRO slaughter as anti-anti slaughter. People need to be able to have_ choices_, regardless of what a bunch of over emotional horse lovers think.

Contrary to popular belief, kill buyers don't WANT the old, skinny animals; like any meat buyer they want the young, healthy, and in good weight. Horses, just like any _other_ livestock meat animal, is sold by the pound. The higher the weight, the more money the seller gets. It's typical economics, and equine kill buyers aren't any more ruthless, heartless, or inhumane than anyone else who raises, buys, and sells animals for meat.

I have no quarrel with the meat industry, because I utilize it every single day of my life. Every time I saddle up, cook dinner, or even feed my own beloved critters, I'm using something that was provided by the meat industry, and so are all of you.

I'd like to see it be as humane as possible for _all_ animals, and that's something with which everyone should be concerned. Denying there's a supply and demand, or tarring/feathering anyone who works in the industry helps nothing, especially NOT the animals.

Instead of expecting some pie in the sky ideals to strike everyone, we need to work within human nature and realize that the world and its people aren't perfect. For some reason, everyone expects someone ELSE to do something instead of pointing the finger at themselves, and asking what THEY can personally do. And no, signing internet petitions isn't 'doing something', except making you feel better about yourselves without actually lifting a finger to really help.

You want to save horses from slaughter? Don't sell yours, ever. Keep them their whole lives, and forget your riding goals if your current horse isn't suited to the discipline of your choice. Learn to work with your animal's limitations, and give up everything you want and of which you dream. If you have an older, lame horse, or one whose temperament isn't suitable, too bad so sad. What? You don't _like_ that idea? Why not? Oh, it's just OTHER people who need to follow the rules YOU dictate, instead of having to give up what YOU want.


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## natisha

FreeDestiny said:


> I think I'm on a side of, I don't like the idea of slaughter, but I'd rather it than horses starve or be neglected. So I'm neither pro nor anti-slaughter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do people really think that those are the only 3 choices? :-(


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## natisha

Lonestar22 said:


> I am pro slaughter. Not matter what you call it, its the same stuff. If we didnt kill off the old, crippled, unwanted horses then we would have overpopulation llike we do now. That's why the horse economy is in the crapper. There are to many horses and not enough people to care for them.
> 
> You can live in your fairy tale "people with stop breeding" world. I choose to live in the real world where breeders dont stop, horses die of starvation and slaughter is a saving grace for dying horses and people alike.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Approximately the same number of horses are slaughtered each year-130,000. The number didn't change with the ban, only the location. So we are killing off the old, crippled & unwanted & the horse economy is still in the 'crapper'. That kind of blows the theory that the horse market is bad because of lack of US slaughter. The whole economy is in the crapper.


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## kevinshorses

I'm mostly Pro Freedom. I pay for the horse and pay for its feed and vetrinary care, training and boarding in some cases. I don't ask for a government hand out and most people can't even get a tax deduction for thier horse expenses. Why then should someone that has no financial or emotional conection to me or my horse be able to tell me what I have to do with my horse when it is no longer suitable for my use. The same goes for regulations on breeding. If I want to breed crap to crap then it's my own business and I kindly invite you to butt the hell out. Government rgulation is NEVER the answer and results in increased burdens and decreased opportunities.


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## natisha

kevinshorses said:


> I'm mostly Pro Freedom. I pay for the horse and pay for its feed and vetrinary care, training and boarding in some cases. I don't ask for a government hand out and most people can't even get a tax deduction for thier horse expenses. Why then should someone that has no financial or emotional conection to me or my horse be able to tell me what I have to do with my horse when it is no longer suitable for my use. The same goes for regulations on breeding. If I want to breed crap to crap then it's my own business and I kindly invite you to butt the hell out. Government rgulation is NEVER the answer and results in increased burdens and decreased opportunities.


I agree with all of your post except the highlighted part. Why should tax payers pay for Gov. inspectors at foreign owned plants for a product we don't use here?

Those horses aren't going to feed the poor. Horse meat is a delicacy over there & I doubt the poor are standing in line to get any.


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## Clava

Being from outside the US, I don't really understand the issue:?, why was it banned (if it was) in the first place and why could anyone have an issue with having horses humanely destroyed in their own countries without unecessary travel and possibly hardship. In the UK, the greatest worry is that horses will be sent on long journeys before being destroyed (meat market in europe) which is where many ponies sent to auction will end up. My friends all use the knackerman or vet to destroy horses that need to be, but I have no doubt that slaughter houses would be used if there were more of them. In Ireland it is the norm to send horses "to the factory" and not regarded as a second choice, they love their horses but they are realistic about the fact that there needs to be a means of ending lives when necessary.


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## Lonestar22

Clava said:


> In Ireland it is the norm to send horses "to the factory" and not regarded as a second choice, they love their horses but they are realistic about the fact that there needs to be a means of ending lives when necessary.


 
I wish everyone in the U.S. thought that way, but since we're a LOT bigger than Ireland, there is more room for the idiocracy to grow. Lol. I don't see why people can't see it as a necessary evil. Even though "evil" is the wrong word for it, it's just plain necessary.


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## Speed Racer

natisha said:


> Horse meat is a delicacy over there & I doubt the poor are standing in line to get any.


No, it's not. It's comparable in price to beef. That's just one more fallacy the animal rights folks have drilled into peoples' heads.


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## kait18

pro-slaughter - necessary evil


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## outnabout

maura said:


> I am a realist that accepts that for now; responsible, regulated slaughter is a sad necessity until we change attitudes about breeding.
> 
> I don't consider that pro-slaughter.


I agree!


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## Kawonu

Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge horse lover, but I do see a need for horse slaughter. Not for food, but too keep the numbers down and to keep the horse market flowing. The US recently made it legal again. The mustangs are under protection, and with it legal, the horse slaughter jobs can be brought back from Canada and Mexico. Now that we're all a little more modernized and the health departments are strict, surely _most_ will be clean and healthy like pig and cattle houses. 

So now that I've blabbed and rambled... I suppose I'm pro so long as things are done in a proper sense.


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## Kawonu

Clava said:


> Being from outside the US, I don't really understand the issue:?, why was it banned (if it was) in the first place and why could anyone have an issue with having horses humanely destroyed in their own countries without unecessary travel and possibly hardship. In the UK, the greatest worry is that horses will be sent on long journeys before being destroyed (meat market in europe) which is where many ponies sent to auction will end up. My friends all use the knackerman or vet to destroy horses that need to be, but I have no doubt that slaughter houses would be used if there were more of them. In Ireland it is the norm to send horses "to the factory" and not regarded as a second choice, they love their horses but they are realistic about the fact that there needs to be a means of ending lives when necessary.


It was banned because it was unclean. A woman who was all for mustangs was driving her car and came behind a truck loaded with mustangs headed for slaughter. Horses were packed so full they couldn't move. Some were being trampled, others were suffocating. Once at the houses, they were neglected, sometimes forced to stand in feces and not fed. That is why it was originally banned. Or, at least, that's the most I know. There might be more, but I know it was a big part of it. It was disgusting and done the wrong way.


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## natisha

Speed Racer said:


> No, it's not. It's comparable in price to beef. That's just one more fallacy the animal rights folks have drilled into peoples' heads.


It compares in price to veal. Either way starving people are not getting imported meat.


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## Clava

Stoddard said:


> It was banned because it was unclean. A woman who was all for mustangs was driving her car and came behind a truck loaded with mustangs headed for slaughter. Horses were packed so full they couldn't move. Some were being trampled, others were suffocating. Once at the houses, they were neglected, sometimes forced to stand in feces and not fed. That is why it was originally banned. Or, at least, that's the most I know. There might be more, but I know it was a big part of it. It was disgusting and done the wrong way.


 
Right, thank you, so it needed regulating and legislation rather than banning? All slaughter houses in the Uk are under strict regulation as is the transportation of animals.


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## natisha

Stoddard said:


> It was banned because it was unclean. A woman who was all for mustangs was driving her car and came behind a truck loaded with mustangs headed for slaughter. Horses were packed so full they couldn't move. Some were being trampled, others were suffocating. Once at the houses, they were neglected, sometimes forced to stand in feces and not fed. That is why it was originally banned. Or, at least, that's the most I know. There might be more, but I know it was a big part of it. It was disgusting and done the wrong way.


It was Federally funded (the inspectors) with tax payers money also, for a product we don't use & the slaughter houses were owned by foreign companies. 
We (USA) have rules & regulations too but not enough people to enforce them (again paid for by tax payers).
One rule is they cannot be transported in double decker trailers -but- only for the last leg of the journey.


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## Clava

natisha said:


> It was Federally funded (the inspectors) with tax payers money also, for a product we don't use & the slaughter houses were owned by foreign companies.
> We (USA) have rules & regulations too but not enough people to enforce them (again paid for by tax payers).
> One rule is they cannot be transported in double decker trailers -but- only for the last leg of the journey.


 
but it is not about who uses the product of dead horses, you benefit from having the facility to humanely kill unwanted horses and owners get money for them. Paying taxes to keep things healthy and humane is just part of living in a civilised society which believes such things are important.


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## Kawonu

natisha said:


> It was Federally funded (the inspectors) with tax payers money also, for a product we don't use & the slaughter houses were owned by foreign companies.
> We (USA) have rules & regulations too but not enough people to enforce them (again paid for by tax payers).
> One rule is they cannot be transported in double decker trailers -but- only for the last leg of the journey.


I'm sure that some of that may have been apart of it, but talking to people who can remember the incidents and having read a couple books, I know part of it was how horrible things were in a humane, clean sense. Would you wanna eat cattle treated in such a way? No, the meat would be worthless if there was meat to be had. I do think perhaps they overreacted, but I also think there will be little market in actually eating horse meat (and knowing about it).

With all the horse lovers constantly screaming, "NOSLAUGHTER" without thinking about it, I'm sure they'll watch it more closely in round 2. Also, I thought using double deckers was against regulations for any livestock anymore?


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## natisha

Here's a sample of "humane" There are no graphic visuals, just a guy talking but it's worth a listen. There is more than one video of the interview. This is #1 od 2 or 3- if can't remember exactly.
To me it's not what happens after you're dead but how you get dead.


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## natisha

Stoddard said:


> I'm sure that some of that may have been apart of it, but talking to people who can remember the incidents and having read a couple books, I know part of it was how horrible things were in a humane, clean sense. Would you wanna eat cattle treated in such a way? No, the meat would be worthless if there was meat to be had. I do think perhaps they overreacted, but I also think there will be little market in actually eating horse meat (and knowing about it).
> 
> With all the horse lovers constantly screaming, "NOSLAUGHTER" without thinking about it, I'm sure they'll watch it more closely in round 2. Also, I thought using double deckers was against regulations for any livestock anymore?


No, only for horses because of the lack of head room but they are only looked at when they pull into the end destination. They get fined for violations but by then it's too late for the animals.
I'm sure many things were taken into consideration.
Slaughter was never offically illegal but the funding for inspectors was pulled & without inspectors the meat could not be used for human consumption. Obama has now reinstituted that funding, though one of his campaign promises was that he would not-but that's a whole other topic.
Two of the three Senators who proposed the refunding are from States where there are financial backers ready for the go ahead to build slaughter plants. The other one is Kohl (from my State) who is retiring. To me it stinks of pay offs.

Maybe the new plants will have stress free ways to kill horses but knowing the nature of horses I'd like to know what they plan. Even _if _they used humane methods like some countries where a horse is taken by itself into a pen & held for shooting that still wouldn't address the problem of transport. I can't see that method being used here (USA) because the main concern is to keep the line moving. Time is money.


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## natisha

I wish the edit button stayed up longer. I'm a terrible typer & am  by some of my mistakes.


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## Kawonu

natisha said:


> No, only for horses because of the lack of head room but they are only looked at when they pull into the end destination. They get fined for violations but by then it's too late for the animals.
> I'm sure many things were taken into consideration.
> Slaughter was never offically illegal but the funding for inspectors was pulled & without inspectors the meat could not be used for human consumption. Obama has now reinstituted that funding, though one of his campaign promises was that he would not-but that's a whole other topic.
> Two of the three Senators who proposed the refunding are from States where there are financial backers ready for the go ahead to build slaughter plants. The other one is Kohl (from my State) who is retiring. To me it stinks of pay offs.
> 
> Maybe the new plants will have stress free ways to kill horses but knowing the nature of horses I'd like to know what they plan. Even _if _they used humane methods like some countries where a horse is taken by itself into a pen & held for shooting that still wouldn't address the problem of transport. I can't see that method being used here (USA) because the main concern is to keep the line moving. Time is money.


I hope they come with a better method. I know it's the killing itself and the time leading up to it, and that was always my problem before when I read about past slaughter houses for horses. I know in pig plants (never watched a video for cattle) that are ran properly will use a quick and fairly painless method. I'm not sure what it's called, but it basically looks like a metal stick that shoots something into the brain of the animal hard enough to kill them instantly. If they can use that for a horse, it'd make the process easier in that sense. Now to work on the making it a non-stressful environment leading to that point. (I agree with you so much there.)

I wish slaughter didn't have to be so flippin' complicated. But it seems to be, so I hope this does more benefit in the long run for everyone and everything involved.


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## waresbear

You asked a question, am I pro-horse slaughter. Well no, but I am pragmatic, so it is a neccessary evil. I don't want to see any horse destroyed, I would love to save them all but of course that is not realistic or practical, unfortunately, horse slaughter is practical. My heart bleeds when I think too hard about horses being (any animal that we have loved as a pet, companion) sent to slaughter. I am sick of thinking about it already, my heart is heavy.


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## trailhorserider

It always makes me sad to think that so many horse people are pro-slaughter.  I guess it goes back to the days when I was a child and would cry and give anything for a horse. I look at horse ownership as an honor. I am in awe of horses.

I know we don't live in a perfect world. But we should at least work towards that goal. I can't help it, I don't feel horses should be food animals.

The crippled, sick and dangerous should be humanely euthanized. The others should be found a home. Maybe there are too many horses at the moment. But eventually if people breed less the market will stabilize. I don't feel slaughtering horses for the greed of money masked as being "humane" makes it right. It is a wrong in my mind no matter how anyone paints it. No one will ever convince me it is a good thing. 

Maybe I am a dreamer, but to me horse slaughter is fundamentally wrong. Might as well make fur coats out of dogs and cats and have dog burgers at the grocery store. To me it's no different. :-(


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## bubba13

natisha said:


> One rule is they cannot be transported in double decker trailers -but- only for the last leg of the journey.


They've either passed or are working to pass legislation that prevents any slaughter-bound horses from traveling in double deckers at any point in the journey, including to the feedlot or intermediate stations. Hopefully this will help address at least that aspect of the problem.



trailhorserider said:


> Maybe I am a dreamer, but to me horse slaughter is fundamentally wrong. Might as well make fur coats out of dogs and cats and have dog burgers at the grocery store. To me it's no different. :-(


And to me, it's no different than eating a cow or a pig. The former is very much like a horse, and the latter is very much like a dog.

I wish they would find something to do with the remains of all the millions of dogs and cats euthanized every year, instead of just taking up room rotting in landfills.


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## DrumRunner

I'm pro-slaughter.. Like many have said, it's the lesser of two evils.


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## Celeste

Well good luck. The inspection money is not going to be there.

Closing of 259 USDA offices raises safety concerns - Toshiba

*Closing of 259 USDA offices raises safety concerns*


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## bubba13

Pretty sure they'll figure it out....


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## Cherie

Sure it will be there. If nothing else, the plants will pay for it like the offered to in 2007.

By the way, They already DO NOT use double deckers for horse transport. They MUST all be hauled in 'floor trucks' now.

Also, it might interest you that the biggest hauler that used to use double deck trucks was the Federal Government. They used to haul all of the mustangs out of Nevada and other western states in double deck trailers. I live 30 miles from the big mustang pens in Pauls Valley, OK and they all were hauled that way until they changed transport laws. 

Celeste -- if you are against wasting tax payers' money, why don't you rail against the waste of money that supports 30,000 mustangs in permanent holding facilities? Why should we (the tax payers) pay for feeding 15 and 20 year old geldings that have no use of any kind, except eat for another 10 years. The cost, this year alone, is anticipated to be more than $70,000,000.00. Yes, that is 70 million dollars. Justify that to me please?


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## 1horsepower

FreeDestiny said:


> I think I'm on a side of, I don't like the idea of slaughter, but I'd rather it than horses starve or be neglected. So I'm neither pro nor anti-slaughter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree...I know some people love rabbits but we eat'em as well as other animals but a horse...


----------



## natisha

Cherie said:


> Sure it will be there. If nothing else, the plants will pay for it like the offered to in 2007.
> 
> By the way, They already DO NOT use double deckers for horse transport. They MUST all be hauled in 'floor trucks' now.
> 
> Also, it might interest you that the biggest hauler that used to use double deck trucks was the Federal Government. They used to haul all of the mustangs out of Nevada and other western states in double deck trailers. I live 30 miles from the big mustang pens in Pauls Valley, OK and they all were hauled that way until they changed transport laws.
> 
> Celeste -- if you are against wasting tax payers' money, why don't you rail against the waste of money that supports 30,000 mustangs in permanent holding facilities? Why should we (the tax payers) pay for feeding 15 and 20 year old geldings that have no use of any kind, except eat for another 10 years. The cost, this year alone, is anticipated to be more than $70,000,000.00. Yes, that is 70 million dollars. Justify that to me please?


Thank you for clarifying that about the transport, it's a step in the right direction USDA Tightens Slaughter Horse Transport Rules | American Horse Council


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## Kawonu

At least something is being done, and if this can provide more jobs for the US - I hoose horse slaughter over human hardships. I hate it as much as any horse lover, but it's possibly a new version of necessity.


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## FlyGap

Pro.
Last night on the local news they were BEGGING for money and adoptions for local abandoned/neglected/starving horses. All were either seized or found wandering the streets in search of grass. The rescues and shelters are receiving dozens of calls daily for help, with no end in sight, no funds available, and there wasn't a single horse I looked at that was suitable for training. They were mostly untrained 15-20+ year olds.
For right now I see it as the only option.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Clava

FlyGap said:


> Pro.
> Last night on the local news they were BEGGING for money and adoptions for local abandoned/neglected/starving horses. All were either seized or found wandering the streets in search of grass. The rescues and shelters are receiving dozens of calls daily for help, with no end in sight, no funds available, and there wasn't a single horse I looked at that was suitable for training. They were mostly untrained 15-20+ year olds.
> For right now I see it as the only option.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Isn't it the obvious option. Everything dies at some point, and better dead than suffering. It is no good, I really don't understand why this is an issue when cattle and other animals are slaughtered without fuss and potential suffering.


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## FlyGap

Yes.
One of the ladies talking threw up her hands in desperation. Three horses behind her had been looked at several times to adopt. All three were older, had issues, and unhandled. They were offering them free to a good home and still people were passing on them. Then she asked for donations for feed and hay!!!! Why not send them "off" and try to help other more suitable horses instead of continuing to feed those... It's so sad but necessary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha

FlyGap said:


> Yes.
> One of the ladies talking threw up her hands in desperation. Three horses behind her had been looked at several times to adopt. All three were older, had issues, and unhandled. They were offering them free to a good home and still people were passing on them. Then she asked for donations for feed and hay!!!! Why not send them "off" and try to help other more suitable horses instead of continuing to feed those... It's so sad but necessary.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why not ask for donations for euthanasia? It seems to me that some rescues spend too much money on horses with little to no hope for being adopted to good homes.
I know some people won't donate to a doomed horse but others will. I personally have paid to have horses PTS, some I knew but most I didn't. I also offer burial sites on my property free of charge, though I will have to start requiring a grave marker.
I'm not unique.


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## Speed Racer

Agreed, Natisha. Sometimes the 'save them at all costs' gets a little old.

There's nothing wrong with euthing an old, crippled, or even bad tempered horse. None of them are suitable for adoption, and I'd rather donate to have them put down than keep throwing money at a lost cause.

Rescues, like doctors, need to know when to say 'enough'.


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## becca289

I'm anti slaughter. Slaughtering animals is a sin, shouldn't be done. I love horses and have a passion for them, i would Never agree to slaughtering them. Thats a horrible thing to do to an innocent animal.


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## demonwolfmoon

becca289 said:


> I'm anti slaughter. *Slaughtering animals is a sin, shouldn't be done. *I love horses and have a passion for them, i would Never agree to slaughtering them. Thats a horrible thing to do to an innocent animal.


I take it you are a vegan?


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## Speed Racer

I certainly hope she's a vegan Demon, as well as rides only bareback with no bridle or reins, since leather is a product of the meat industry. :wink:

_Abuse_ and_ neglect_ are sins, not processing animals for food. If you want to talk about sins we need to involve the Bible and its teachings, and I'd rather not open up _that_ particular can of worms. :wink:


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## FlyGap

The local people who do not support slaughter would probably have been offended if the news did a story asking for money to kill horses!!! Ha! Ha!! I agree, pull the plug.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clava

becca289 said:


> I'm anti slaughter. Slaughtering animals is a sin, shouldn't be done. I love horses and have a passion for them, i would Never agree to slaughtering them. Thats a horrible thing to do to an innocent animal.


 
So, given the actual world we live in (which is far from ideal) you would rather they were left to starve or be neglected until they died.


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## Sunny

How many animals were slaughtered in the bible? Yet, it's a sin....

I also hope you consume no animal products, Becca.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## goneriding

I am pro for letting this dead horse lie, no pun intended.:wave:


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## WesternBella

Anti-slaughter: it just seems wrong to kill such a beautiful creature no matter the reason.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WesternBella

But yes, slaughter would be better than leaving the horse to starve and be neglected. I certainly could not imagine being the person that runs the slaughter houses or even sends their horse there 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag

This topic has been worn out on every equine web site on the internet. It will never be resolved to suit every one so it's a non issue.


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## jbolt

If slaughter was a quick, quiet, painless action similar to euthanasia, I would absolutely support it, however horse slaughter as it is is barbaric and I cannot vote for support unless it is regulated to be FAR more akin to euthanasia. Why can't it be that way? we euthanize and sell cats for teenagers to dissect.........they are literally worth more dead than alive.....(not a slam on cats, just a similar observation)


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## bubba13

I dunno about all lab cats, but the ones we got were purposed-raised for dissection from a "cat farm" in Mexico. Makes me sick about THAT.


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## natisha

Clava said:


> So, given the actual world we live in (which is far from ideal) you would rather they were left to starve or be neglected until they died.


Starve, neglect or slaughter. Those 3 are not the only options. I've had horses whose time here was done & none of those things even crossed my mind as a consideration.


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## natisha

bubba13 said:


> I dunno about all lab cats, but the ones we got were purposed-raised for dissection from a "cat farm" in Mexico. Makes me sick about THAT.


You were told that but I highly doubt it was true.


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## natisha

Saddlebag said:


> This topic has been worn out on every equine web site on the internet. It will never be resolved to suit every one so it's a non issue.


Because it can't be agreed on shouldn't make it as non-issue. Both sides hope it will become a non-issue so the other side will give up the fight. Regardless of how a person feels about an issue they should speak up, debate & do what they can. There would still be slavery here (USA) if someone, somewhere didn't take a strong stand & stick by it.


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## Clava

natisha said:


> Starve, neglect or slaughter. Those 3 are not the only options. I've had horses whose time here was done & none of those things even crossed my mind as a consideration.


 
Private owners caring for an individual is not how the whole horse world exists, there are animals who are not so cared for and starving and cruel neglect ARE the real world options when slaughter is not available to take away their suffering. The other options you refer to are not always going to happen and then the only option left is to the detriment of the horse. It is pointless stating there are better options when the true reality is they are not always going to happen, it smacks of living in a dream world.


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## natisha

Clava said:


> Private owners caring for an individual is not how the whole horse world exists, there are animals who are not so cared for and starving and cruel neglect ARE the real world options when slaughter is not available to take away their suffering. The other options you refer to are not always going to happen and then the only option left is to the detriment of the horse. It is pointless stating there are better options when the true reality is they are not always going to happen, it smacks of living in a dream world.


I'll ignore your insult & address your other points.

Besides a relatively small amount of truly wild horses what horses are not privately owned?

So you say that where slaughter exists there is not starving & cruel neglect happening? I could show you hundreds of cases of the same that happen without or without readily available slaughter. The people who would starve or neglect their animals are not looking for a way to end suffering, be it slaughter or otherwise.


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## Clava

natisha said:


> I'll ignore your insult & address your other points.
> 
> Besides a relatively small amount of truly wild horses what horses are not privately owned?
> 
> So you say that where slaughter exists there is not starving & cruel neglect happening? I could show you hundreds of cases of the same that happen without or without readily available slaughter. The people who would starve or neglect their animals are not looking for a way to end suffering, be it slaughter or otherwise.


I did not say they were not in private ownership, I was refering to individual much loved horses with caring owners as I'm sure you are aware.

Without a means for simply and quickly ending horses lives and also a means of providing financial gain as insentive there could be lots of animals where the negligent owner will find it simpler to let neglect and abuse continue rather than do something about it (which could be expensive, such as having a vet administer to it) and they will be financially rewarded for ending the suffering.


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## loveduffy

Death is never a nice thing but starving to death is even worse so I would rather see an animal put down before that


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## natisha

Clava said:


> I did not say they were not in private ownership, I was refering to individual much loved horses with caring owners as I'm sure you are aware.


Private owners caring for an individual is not how the whole horse world exists

No, I really wasn't aware of your intent. I didn't see your 'caring for' in the same context as 'caring about' until you clarified but you're right, there can be a huge difference.


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## becca289

No i'm not a vegan. Lol If a horse is old and crippled then its owner should put it down and bury it and have some respect. Ive had old horses that needed to be put down, and they were buried on my property. More people should look into a cause of finding homes for starving animals instead of killing them, ive rescued several horses from bad homes and found them new ones & one of horses is a rescue. Thats what money should be put into not killing.


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## FlyGap

While that is admirable... There isn't the money, resources, or available land to do that. I've rescued several and re-homed some. But there are too many that are dangerous, unfit, and medically unsound to keep around. There has to be a solution for them that is "profitable" enough to do the best for them until the verdict is reached that they must go. MONEY should go towards sterilization, affordable vet care, and salvaging neglected horses that are fit and need a new lease on life. 

You can come round up dozens of horses here that have been turned loose, and adopt several that are unfit, medically unsound, very old for little to nothing. That'll free up some resources.
Euthanizing/disposing them costs too much and is often against county regulations. Around here they shoot them in the head and feed them to hogs and hunting dogs. Often they are picked up at local sales for around $20, the dogs are sicked on them for practice. They usually die from the dogs, but one man thought it was funny to watch the hogs finish them off. JSYK... those kinds of people couldn't afford to do this if the horses were selling at fair market price.


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## Speed Racer

becca289 said:


> No i'm not a vegan. Lol


Really? So it's only HORSES you consider a sin to slaughter, and not all those other animals? After all, they're not pretty like horses, so it's okay to kill and eat_ them_. :roll:


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## bubba13

FlyGap said:


> Often they are picked up at local sales for around $20, the dogs are sicked on them for practice. They usually die from the dogs, but one man thought it was funny to watch the hogs finish them off.


This CAN'T be legal and I have a hard time believing it's actually happening...


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## FlyGap

It's NOT legal, but it is happening.
Here is part of one story, the horses were also being feed to the hogs.
LeFLORE COUNTY, Okla. -- A LeFlore County, Okla., man and his grandson have been arrested in what many investigators said was the worst animal abuse case they've seen.
"This office has worked several cases of animal cruelty with horses and cattle, but I have never seen anything similar to this," said Sheriff Bruce Curnutt.
Albert McReynolds and William McReynolds, were taken into custody Tuesday evening on multiple counts of animal cruelty.
Investigators said they found multiple horse carcasses chained to dogs and scattered about the property.
"One of them (dog) was actually chained to the leg of a horse," said Curnutt.
They believe the horses were tied to the dogs so the dogs could feed off them.
Deputies were preparing to return with people to help them gather the dogs, carcasses and other horses they said are close to starvation on the property east of Honobia, Okla.
Here is the link to the story, the video is messed up or else you would have gotten to see the animals, carcasses, heard more of the story etc.
http://www.4029tv.com/news/29996579/detail.html

And I've heard of worse.


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## natisha

bubba13 said:


> This CAN'T be legal and I have a hard time believing it's actually happening...


It wouldn't be legal but that has never stopped some people from doing what they want to do. I believe there is no limit of cruelty to some. Broken moral compass or something.


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## bubba13

OK, so just an isolated incident of crazy people. Not a county-wide phenomenon of hordes of people buying cheap horses to bait with dogs.


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## FlyGap

bubba13 said:


> OK, so just an isolated incident of crazy people. Not a county-wide phenomenon of hordes of people buying cheap horses to bait with dogs.


I didn't say it was a nationwide phenomenon. I said around here, and I said those kinds of people. I'm sure they aren't the first ones to think of this. And my point stands that this kind of cruelty wouldn't exist, or not as much if horses were sold AT MARKET PRICE. I am all for slaughter, especially to feed dogs, if it is done "humanely".


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## bubba13

County, not country. Your post led me to believe that what you described was a commonplace practice in your area. 

Unfortunately, even before the ban and market crash, there were cheap and free horses around. Old ones, untrained ones, sick or injured ones....I got offered several free horses (and these were young, sound, and healthy) before the funding was cut and the plants closed. Where there's a will for that kind of abuse, there's a way....


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## becca289

Cows and other animals are raised for food & dairy products and have been for a long time..... Horses arent lol, ive never met anyone who eats a horse they used to ride and love, that is retarded. LOLLL  Horses being put down & slaughtered is very different. I understand horses being Putdown because they are too old, or unfit to be around, but slaughtering them is brutal. I wish i was a vegan i hate the thoughts of any being slaughtered.


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## AlexS

Becca, an animal being put to sleep is not always peaceful either. When my precious dog was put to sleep, he suffered greatly for a short while. It was not the image I had of him closing his eyes and going to sleep at all.


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## bubba13

becca289 said:


> Cows and other animals are raised for food & dairy products and have been for a long time..... Horses arent lol, ive never met anyone who eats a horse they used to ride and love, that is retarded. LOLLL  Horses being put down & slaughtered is very different. I understand horses being Putdown because they are too old, or unfit to be around, but slaughtering them is brutal. I wish i was a vegan i hate the thoughts of any being slaughtered.


Read, please:

http://www.horseforum.com/general-off-topic-discussion/how-do-you-feel-about-horse-104173/

http://www.horseforum.com/general-off-topic-discussion/vegetarian-102486/


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## demonwolfmoon

becca289 said:


> . never met anyone who eats a horse they used to ride and love, that is retarded. I wish i was a vegan i hate the thoughts of any being slaughtered.


.....
.....
Not going to touch on my opinions on your thought process but:
Just because you don't know someone who eats horse does not mean it doesn't happen .
-and-
Veganism is a choice. If you "wish" you were one, don't sit at your computer desk whining about peoples sins for the existence of slaughter then go get a hamburger.... That just makes you a hypocrite....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becca289

An animal being put to sleep is much more peaceful then slaughter. Well in my country, people do not eat horse, they are a pet, that someone loves and cares about. This is MY opinion not yours and nothing you can say would ever change my mind on slaughtering horses. SORRRYY


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## Clava

becca289 said:


> Cows and other animals are raised for food & dairy products and have been for a long time..... Horses arent lol, ive never met anyone who eats a horse they used to ride and love, that is retarded. LOLLL  Horses being put down & slaughtered is very different. I understand horses being Putdown because they are too old, or unfit to be around, but slaughtering them is brutal. I wish i was a vegan i hate the thoughts of any being slaughtered.


They certainly are in France and other parts of Europe (not in the UK though), big breeds like the Breton, Haflingers sometimes, Comtois are all bred for size and weight and have been for a very long time. Yes they ride them and then eat them. This is the world we live in, and for me as long as the animal has a pain free and healthy life I really don't have a problem with it. It is animals which are neglected and left in pain with no end that I feel for, there are worse things than slaughter.


...and be vegan if that is what you want to be.


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## Clava

becca289 said:


> This is for opinons so just because its not your opinion doesn't mean you can say mine is wrong.


 
Actually I think she can give her opinion that she thinks your opinion is wrong...


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## becca289

Good for those places then .. lol... stilllll dont agree to it. Where i'm from we rescue horses being sent to slaughter just because they cant run fast enough or whatever the reason, its unacceptable.


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## Speed Racer

Please, for the love of all that's holy, STOP with the silly lols at the end and beginning of all your sentences! :-x

You've certainly led a very sheltered life if you think my disagreeing with you is in any way personally attacking you. 

Oh, and you obviously don't understand sarcasm _at all_, if you didn't get the point behind Hindus thinking cattle are sacred, yet you insist on eating them.

You'd be surprised about my being able to change someone's mind. I've done it more than once. But then, the person has to be logical, rational, and realize that horses are no more or less deserving than any _other_ meat animal.

If you feel so guilty about eating any type of meat, then STOP. It really _is _that simple.


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## becca289

I did not say anyones opinion was wrong. I said i was against slaughter actually.


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## Sunny

When I was younger(though I am certainly not old) I hated the idea of slaughter--- although I was against all slaughter and was vegan for three years.

Once I got older, however, I began to understand the real world and now I am very pro-slaughter. I've written a zillion papers on it for school and it has allowed me to open the eyes of others, just as my eyes were opened. Do some research on the subject. It will open your eyes. Oh, and not from completely biased sources. (IE, Peta, HSUS, etc.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becca289

You started with the lols. I didnt say anything about your sacred cow comment. You would never change my mind. Its my opinion? SO think what you will and I will do the same.


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## Speed Racer

You specifically SAID equine slaughter was a 'sin'. Um no, it's not. 

Don't you live in Canada? I wouldn't be so high and might talking about how 'we' don't send animals to slaughter, when Canada currently has operating equine processing facilities. :wink:

Your opinions are based on emotion; mine are based on logic. You're certainly entitled to yours, but you've contributed nothing to the discussion except hyperbole and hysteria.

As far as your silly 'lols', please go back to your very first post. _You're_ the one who kept putting them there.


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## becca289

Well sunny, yes i am being ignorant? I have reason to be im not a child. My mother is most likely ollder then you and she is very anti slaughter, so my opinion will not change.


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## Cherie

I will ask again -- to these 24 people that are against slaughter:

*What would you want done with hundreds of thousands of horses that are now being sold to slaughter in Mexico and Canada? 

Just because YOU don't like the idea of slaughter does not mean that these horses will disappear like magic. 

Would you prefer that they be turned out in State Parks and along highways to be hit by cars? (Many already are, by the way.)

Would you prefer that they be starved in a back pasture because someone cannot buy feed for them, cannot give them away and don't even have a sale that will be able to sell them?

*I went to the local sale last Monday. Over 100 head sold. They went from $20.00 to over $1000.00. There was a big crowd in attendance. About 1/2 of the horses that went through the sale had no bids except from the killer buyers that ship to Mexico. 

*Where do think they will go if there was not a buyer there to buy them and take them to Mexico? 

Don't tell me what 'should' happen and what others 'should' do. In the 'here and now', tell me what 'will' happen to all of these hundreds of thousands of horses that are completely UNWANTED and have no other place to go and no one that will feed them?

We're waiting!
*


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## Sunny

Speed Racer said:


> Your opinions are based on emotion; mine are based on logic.


Yes! This.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becca289

YEsssss canada does slaughter animals, but more people are against it, yes it still goes on, no need to tell me something i already know. Yes I do think it is a sin? Thats my opinion.


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## becca289

YEs it is based on emotion?


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## Sunny

The concept of "sin" comes from religion. Again I say, how many animals were slaughtered in the Bible?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## becca289

Might as well stop with showing me all this information that i am aware of. I dont have to agree with everyone else and i wont.


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## demonwolfmoon

Sunny said:


> The concept of "sin" comes from religion. Again I say, how many animals were slaughtered in the Bible?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Until the New Testament, animals were slaughtered to sacrifice to God.
...
Guess it wasn't a sin then....


----------



## becca289

Not a bible person, i believe in evolution. Theres alot of things done back in the day that arent acceptable nowadays.


----------



## Sunny

If you believe in evolution, why are you making religious references?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## demonwolfmoon

becca289 said:


> Not a bible person, i believe in evolution. Theres alot of things done back in the day that arent acceptable nowadays.


You are aware in the fact that you can be a religious person and still "believe" in Evolution?


----------



## Showjumper1

I am anti slaughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Speed Racer

becca289 said:


> Yes I do think it is a sin? Thats my opinion.


Opinion isn't_ fact_. 

Sin is based on _moral_ principles, and is extremely subjective depending on your culture and in what part of the world you live. 

Animals were given to us to use. Part of that use is food. The only thing we're_ morally_ obligated to do, is provide a good life for them up_ until_ their death. If their death comes as a result of them being processed for food, that's hardly something that can considered a _sin_.

You're trying to project _your_ personal beliefs onto others, and force them to comply with your wishes. That in itself is morally and ethically objectionable.


----------



## demonwolfmoon

Speed Racer said:


> You're trying to project _your_ personal beliefs onto others, and force them to comply with your wishes. That in itself is morally and ethically objectionable.


Oh Speed Racer <3


----------



## FlyGap

Quit the bickering. Anti Slaughter people: ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.
BECCA289, what would you suggest?

Cudos Cherie!


Cherie said:


> I will ask again -- to these 24 people that are against slaughter:
> 
> *What would you want done with hundreds of thousands of horses that are now being sold to slaughter in Mexico and Canada?
> 
> Just because YOU don't like the idea of slaughter does not mean that these horses will disappear like magic.
> 
> Would you prefer that they be turned out in State Parks and along highways to be hit by cars? (Many already are, by the way.)
> We have them, how would you feel about dozens of horses free ranging around your "precious" without vaccines, un-gelded studs attacking your fences, breeding your mares, driving home and your family hits one at night???????
> 
> Would you prefer that they be starved in a back pasture because someone cannot buy feed for them, cannot give them away and don't even have a sale that will be able to sell them?
> 
> *I went to the local sale last Monday. Over 100 head sold. They went from $20.00 to over $1000.00. There was a big crowd in attendance. About 1/2 of the horses that went through the sale had no bids except from the killer buyers that ship to Mexico.
> 
> *Where do think they will go if there was not a buyer there to buy them and take them to Mexico?
> 
> Don't tell me what 'should' happen and what others 'should' do. In the 'here and now', tell me what 'will' happen to all of these hundreds of thousands of horses that are completely UNWANTED and have no other place to go and no one that will feed them?
> 
> We're waiting!
> *


----------



## Sunny

-sigh-

All I'm going to say to you, Becca, is to do some research. I mean REAL research.

Although, you'll probably just end up watching PETA slaughterhouse videos on Youtube...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Speed Racer

Oh, and you can most certainly be a 'Bible person' and believe in evolution. There are plenty of us out there. 

However, I'm not the one who dragged moral implications into a slaughter discussion, and I'd rather not continue on in that vein. Religion is a _very_ volatile subject to discuss, unlike equine slaughter! :rofl:


----------



## Sunny

Oh, and I was under the assumption that the evolution comment was Becca's attempt to backpedal out of the "sin" discussion by claiming she wasn't religious.


I wasn't aware of the commonality of both evolution and Bible followers. Interesting! Where I live, if you so much as utter the word "evolution," you're lucky if you don't get chased out of town with torches and pitchforks! :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Speed Racer

Showjumper1 said:


> I am anti slaughter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Other than being against it 'just because', please share your rationale for _why_ you take that stance.

I'm not being sarcastic, nor calling you out. I really do want to know why some people are against it. If it's a logical reason, let's discuss it. If it's based on emotion and hyperbole, then I'd rather we didn't.

Sunny, it's hard NOT to believe in evolution when the evidence is staring you in the face. That doesn't make me believe in God less, it actually_ strengthens_ my belief because of the complexity of things. I don't see chaos or coincidence, I see divine inspiration. Others will of course not agree with my particular beliefs, and I'm okay with that.


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## FlyGap

Not valid for this discussion, I dropped it.


----------



## becca289

I obviously know how to read.. You people do not know me so stop assuming i dont go out into the "real world" . Im not looking for a definition for sin, im against slaughter its that simple.I'm not projecting my beliefs on others, that would be you guys. I said my opinion and your trying to change it can attempting to call me down. Neither is working. ALso never said you couldnt believe in evolution and be religious? I said i believed in evolution and bad things were done back in the day to people and arent acceptable today im not being religious by sayin that...lol


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## becca289

NO need to do research i dont like slaughter. Im allowed to be anti slaughter


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## demonwolfmoon

FlyGap said:


> Quit the bickering. Anti Slaughter people: ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.
> BECCA289, what would you suggest?
> 
> Cudos Cherie!
> Originally Posted by *Cherie*
> _I will ask again -- to these 24 people that are against slaughter:
> 
> *What would you want done with hundreds of thousands of horses that are now being sold to slaughter in Mexico and Canada?
> 
> Just because YOU don't like the idea of slaughter does not mean that these horses will disappear like magic.
> 
> Would you prefer that they be turned out in State Parks and along highways to be hit by cars? (Many already are, by the way.)
> We have them, how would you feel about dozens of horses free ranging around your "precious" without vaccines, un-gelded studs attacking your fences, breeding your mares, driving home and your family hits one at night???????
> 
> Would you prefer that they be starved in a back pasture because someone cannot buy feed for them, cannot give them away and don't even have a sale that will be able to sell them?
> 
> *I went to the local sale last Monday. Over 100 head sold. They went from $20.00 to over $1000.00. There was a big crowd in attendance. About 1/2 of the horses that went through the sale had no bids except from the killer buyers that ship to Mexico.
> 
> *Where do think they will go if there was not a buyer there to buy them and take them to Mexico?
> 
> Don't tell me what 'should' happen and what others 'should' do. In the 'here and now', tell me what 'will' happen to all of these hundreds of thousands of horses that are completely UNWANTED and have no other place to go and no one that will feed them?
> 
> We're waiting!*_
> 
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/you-pro-slaughter-poll-108010/page13/#ixzz1jMRajYoO


So yeah, ignoring that last obnoxious bump in the road....any Anti-Slaughter care to take a stab at this?
I am flexible...and would love to hear some* *viable* solutions.*


----------



## goneriding

I do not care for slaughter but our world is not perfect. And with the economy being down, people over breeding etc. I do not see any other options at this point other than regulated slaughter. I truly wish people would educate themselves more broadly before getting a horse.


----------



## Hasufel

I did not read all the responses but wanted to add my thought on this issue. 
I think if more people were pro- slaughter, the slaughter houses could be more humane. I think the real problem is not if you should be pro or anti slaughter, because to me slaughter is ,sadly,necessary but the problem is how to make the facilities better to accommodate _horse _ slaughter. If we make the killing process more humane them most people would, intelligibly, be more inclined to accept slaughter.Imo.
So as of right now, I don't think I am completely decided.


----------



## Druydess

natisha said:


> Here's a sample of "humane" There are no graphic visuals, just a guy talking but it's worth a listen. There is more than one video of the interview. This is #1 od 2 or 3- if can't remember exactly.
> To me it's not what happens after you're dead but how you get dead.
> Observations of a Horse Slaughter Killer (part 1) - YouTube


Thank you Natisha. You have made my point about the inhumanity of horse slaughter. Greed runs it. Old, useless horses do not go to slaughter as I have said before, but diseased and tainted ones do. It's just something people are conditioned to think to make it easier rationalize it.


----------



## natisha

People give emotional answers because this is an emotional issue. We're not machines programmed to only deal with mathmatical equations, there is empathy & sympathy involved. These aren't junk cars we're discussing.

Cattle spend much of their lives together, often in close quarters, & ran through chutes for various reasons. Horses don't do well in tight areas with those they don't know. I don't need to tell horse people how horses react to strange situations.

Horses brains are farther back in their skulls compared to cattle which makes the captive bolt tricky, especially with a horse's longer flexible neck.

Unlike stray dogs, cats & wild mustangs most conceptions are due to man's actions. I'm not saying no one should breed but maybe we should look at what we are breeding & why. Good horses with good breeding & training are still in demand. I looked for over 3 years for my mare & I paid over 'market price' for her. I will not breed her.

Horses have been going to slaughter for a long time, so although the economy is bad it cannot take the full blame for the glut of horses.
Horses in the slaughter chain now can't be saved except for a few isolated cases but if every breeder or buyer said, "Not my horse' there would be no slaughter. 

Here are my reasons for being anti-slaughter, yes, some are emotional but aren't most of our life decisions based on emotions?
We don't eat horses here.
Bullets are cheap.
There is nothing humane about the way horses are kept, transported or slaughtered.
I don't need the few dollars I would get for sending a horse off.
The horse's plight doesn't end when it leaves our property. For me, out of sight isn't out of mind.
Horses have given me so much that the least I can do is offer them as peaceful a passing as possible.
I have to live with the decisions I make & I feel it is my responsibility to be with my horses to the end. I take comfort in knowing where they are & how they got there.
If this makes me a bleeding heart then that is a badge I will proudly wear.


----------



## demonwolfmoon

Emotion is not the best way to make all of your decisions.

Once upon a time, back while I was dating DH, I went with a friend to go look at cars. His mom was buying him one...so I wanted one too. DH told me not to touch the used car lot, his dad was a master mechanic and had access to good deals on good cars and wouldn't rip me off....So what did I do? Got obstinate and thought "no one tells me what to do!" 
So I buy this car, right? Spur of the moment impulse buy...I think I paid an extra 10 thousand dollars in interest...because of my emotional response. Moral of the story is (though the story is unrelated to animals this time...though I have a few...which are related. X_X), that emotion isn't always the best way to go...

Now...I would not send my horse to slaughter. I would find a way to make it work even if something bad happened to my family. This is who I am...but I can also understand...that a family somewhere in the world might love their horse...but still eat his meat after he becomes unable to work anymore. I can also understand that like dogs, some horses are downright dangerous due to something going wrong in their little monkey brains....for those, and for the glut of horses, I can understand that by killing them and consuming their life energy...they can do some good in this world.
Hell, maybe their meat goes to the zoos everyone likes to go to...or big cat conservation. Or as someone else said...dog food...it doesn't have to be people that eat them.

My point is, better ways can be found, and surely will be found with so many judging eyes on the situation, which is GOOD. If you want the problem to stop...go slap your neighbor who is breeding yearly....


----------



## natisha

demonwolfmoon said:


> Emotion is not the best way to make all of your decisions.
> 
> Once upon a time, back while I was dating DH, I went with a friend to go look at cars. His mom was buying him one...so I wanted one too. DH told me not to touch the used car lot, his dad was a master mechanic and had access to good deals on good cars and wouldn't rip me off....So what did I do? Got obstinate and thought "no one tells me what to do!"
> So I buy this car, right? Spur of the moment impulse buy...I think I paid an extra 10 thousand dollars in interest...because of my emotional response. Moral of the story is (though the story is unrelated to animals this time...though I have a few...which are related. X_X), that emotion isn't always the best way to go...
> 
> Now...I would not send my horse to slaughter. I would find a way to make it work even if something bad happened to my family. This is who I am...but I can also understand...that a family somewhere in the world might love their horse...but still eat his meat after he becomes unable to work anymore. I can also understand that like dogs, some horses are downright dangerous due to something going wrong in their little monkey brains....for those, and for the glut of horses, I can understand that by killing them and consuming their life energy...they can do some good in this world.
> Hell, maybe their meat goes to the zoos everyone likes to go to...or big cat conservation. Or as someone else said...dog food...it doesn't have to be people that eat them.
> 
> My point is, better ways can be found, and surely will be found with so many judging eyes on the situation, which is GOOD. If you want the problem to stop...go slap your neighbor who is breeding yearly....


Sorry about your car but I'll bet it was pretty.

I have no problem with what happens after something is already dead, it's how it gets there. Hell, when I die they can feed me to the lions at a zoo, I'm sure much to the delight of on looking children.


----------



## demonwolfmoon

natisha said:


> Sorry about your car but I'll bet it was pretty.
> 
> I have no problem with what happens after something is already dead, it's how it gets there. Hell, when I die they can feed me to the lions at a zoo, I'm sure much to the delight of on looking children.


Lol it was pretty, and I enjoyed it...two months after I finally paid it off....DH totaled it. =/ ROFL

As for that...yes, I agree that the death should be as humane as possible, and if current methods can be improved upon, then we as human beings have a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to inflict as little harm as possible. 

That being said...the excess breeding of ALL domestic animals needs to stop!!! Having thirty ill conformed, bred horses going through auction (as per one thread I read) is irresponsible and downright abominable!!!! Having pet cats then hoping to find homes for six kittens every six months, knowing that cats breed exponentially...is horrible! And by it's very nature inflicts suffering that we could prevent easily. If people were more responsible, or if there were more SOCIAL REPERCUSSIONS for being a d*%chebag, then maybe we'd have less horses to slaughter, less animal cruelty cases...and less piles of dogs and cats going through the kill shelters daily.....


----------



## Clayton Taffy

*Oh for God's sakes!!!* I just wanted to know how many people on this site were for and how many were against slaughtering horses. To all of the pro slaughter postsers, no one on this thread has berrated you, or ganged up on you, or insulted you for your opinion. I think all the same posters say the same thing over and over and over again. I bet if you count the number of the posters on the slaughter threads the pro's will far out number the anti's, and it will be the same dozen or so. I'm sure someone with alot more time and anger will count them to prove me wrong. 
I did not read all the posts, as I have read them all before on other threads. Please, If you want to argue, be hurtfull, intimidating, insulting, or personal, again please do it on a slaughter thread. 
I would truly like to know the #'s without any poster being attacked for their opinion. 
I was hoping this would be a poll, not a debate, there are plenty of other threads for that already.


----------



## Cherie

I've been gone for several hours and I come back and THERE STILL IS NOT ONE ANSWER TO MY QUESTIONS. Could it be that all of the idealists have not figured out an answer? 

Here's a hint -- unless 'you' and your friends are going to attend every sale and bid on and buy every unwanted horse (One that no one else bids on), there is no other place for them to go.

If you want to do something constructive, why don't you study how horses are handled and slaughtered in places like Iceland where they are raised for meat? I have read quite a bit about their process there and it is quite acceptable. 

Find out what the European Union rules and regulations are. They are quite particular in what methods are acceptable if the meat is going to be sold in the EU countries. 

Instead of railing about the problems and wishing for unrealistic solutions, why don't you be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. Stopping horse slaughter here has only multiplied the problems for the poor horses caught in the middle. Dropping horses' value has been a disaster for both horses and horse owners and everyone from Vets to farriers to trainers that have made their living with horses for their entire lives are suffering. 

When horses have a value (like the $1000.00 killer prices of 10 years ago, they were better cared for, kept fat and there were a lot fewer of them being sent off to the slaughter plants. They were 'worth' keeping and training. 

If you have so much time to kill, (no pun intended), and this means so much to you, why don't you spend your time and effort trying to see what methods work best. A lady that lives in Iceland (whose husband works in a horse slaughter house there) has explained quite a bit about their process there. She said all of the horses stand quietly, don't fight or act afraid and quietly walk into the plant. If people would put the same time and effort into making plants more 'horse friendly' and and the process more humane, the horses that are inevitably going to end up in one of them would benefit more than anything else you could do for them.
*
Until then, I am still waiting for your solutions to what you would do with the horses right now that are being shipped to Mexico and Canada?*

Oh, for whoever said only sick and tainted horses go to Mexico -- come to the next Monday night horse sale here in town -- 10 days from now.

I did not see one sick or diseased horse go through the ring. If they did, only the zoo buyer would take them. The 2 or 3 healthy grays went to the buyer for zoo meat. The killer buyers will not even buy them.

Many were old broodmares that checked 'open', were untrained or half wild or mean horses that are no longer wanted as 'project horses'. There were 3 or 4 horses that obviously had been foundered at one time. Most had not been dewormed in a very long time -- if ever. Quite a few were old, sway-backed and looked pretty tough. There was one horse with shoes and I think they were race plates. So, out of 60 or 70 horses that went to Mexico, one may have had Bute or other medication in it. The broodmares had probably been dewormed at some time, but no one would have 'wasted' dewormer on them recently. I doubt that the others had received any doctoring or medication in their lifetimes or at least their recent lifetimes. Most of what you see are neglected horses that have received no care at all for months or years. People have quit 'wasting' money on them for a very long time because they are not 'worth' it. 

Horses losing their value is behind almost all of the neglect and starvation cases.


----------



## Clayton Taffy

I read the first or maybe the second sentence of post #149. Thats it. I don't know who you are talking to "you and your friends" I don't have friends here.
Thats all I wanted to read, read it all before. I just was hoping for a poll.
I guess that won't happen though.


----------



## Cherie

This is a 'forum' -- not a voting booth. Everything posted here is up for discussion. That is what this is.

I never call people names or get personal. I respect everyone even if I disagree with them. 

Am I passionate about this subject -- YOU BET! In the past five years since the first restrictions were put on slaughter, I have seen more starved and neglected horse than I did for the first 50 years I was around them. I have watched their care go swiftly down hill. So, yes, I am passionate about what the stopping of domestic slaughter has done to the poor horses caught in the middle of this debate. 

Sorry if you don't like it, but it is a forum.


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## Clayton Taffy

Super moderator,--- I was just stating what I was hoping for. 

That is what it is!!!!


----------



## demonwolfmoon

Taffy Clayton said:


> Super moderator,--- I was just stating what I was hoping for.
> 
> That is what it is!!!!


people responded to your poll...


----------



## loveduffy

this is a very hot topic so people will respond as they feel you can not get mad at how they feel it is each person's feeling about the slaughter of all animal -so to get mad dose no good it is how they feel -


----------



## natisha

Cherie said:


> This is a 'forum' -- not a voting booth. Everything posted here is up for discussion. That is what this is.
> 
> I never call people names or get personal. I respect everyone even if I disagree with them.
> 
> Am I passionate about this subject -- YOU BET! In the past five years since the first restrictions were put on slaughter, I have seen more starved and neglected horse than I did for the first 50 years I was around them. I have watched their care go swiftly down hill. So, yes, I am passionate about what the stopping of domestic slaughter has done to the poor horses caught in the middle of this debate.
> 
> Sorry if you don't like it, but it is a forum.


I'm not sure why you are seeing more starvation & abuse cases? Slaughter has been an option all along, horses could still be sent if the owners chose.


----------



## Cherie

I can tell you exactly why there is many times more neglect and abuse, but anti slaughter people will not believe me. 

Back in 2006 and 2007, well before any downturn in the US economy, slaughter was halted in this country by the law stopping Federal inspection of horse-meat. At that time, prices plummeted for lower end saddle horses right along with slaughter prices. We saw prices fall overnight at our local sale here in Sulphur, OK. 

I talked to several Veterinarians back then (right after the big price drop) and every one of the 'Country Vets' that had mixed livestock practices (not the big expensive equine centers that have show horse practices) ALL said that their horse related calls and income dropped overnight. A 
Vet north of me in Stratford said his horse related income dropped 80-90%. The Vets west of me said their horse related calls and income dropped about 75%. The Vets (2 of them) that we know in Ardmore, south of me, said their horse calls and income dropped 60% and 80% respectively. I ASKED THEM!

The Vet at Stratford castrated a colt for me a while back and I asked him if his horse business picked up any and he said it was even lower. He said he had people take horses to the sale because they could replace one that needed crypt orchid surgery or surgery to remove a tiny bone chip or treatment for a gutteral pouch problem cheaper than to doctor them. He said he now dispenses Banamine for a horse with colic because the owners will not pay for him to go out and treat a colic. Owners tell him that the horse will have to either live or die because they can be replaced cheaper than he can make one or two calls for a colic. Most of these horses go to the sale and ARE replaced if they live through the colic. People know that horses are more prone to colic again so they just dump them at the sale and buy another. 

Before the big price drop, I had standing orders for 'project horses' from several people with day jobs that played with a young horse to train on the side. As soon as they got this cheap, they did not want to take a chance on taking on any other horses. [I have not purchased a project horse for anyone in more than 5 years.] They knew that with the big market value drop, a horse that did not work out or one that they had to sell would not bring anything and they could not afford to take the chance. Before 2007, registered young horses in fair shape with little or no handling were bringing $1000.00 or more if they had decent conformation and decent breeding (no Impressive or halter breeding). After 2007 they dropped to $200.00 and are now down to $20.00 to $50.00 with papers or breeders' Certificates. [Many people now, do not even register them and sell them with a Registration Application.]

This terrible string of events is totally due to the LOSS OF VALUE. It happened before the crash of the economy in late 2008. That only exacerbated it. 

If you don't believe me (and I know a lot of people won't), just ask 2 or 3 country Vets with mixed practices, especially in rural areas and ranch areas away from cities, boarding stables and 1 horse owners. You will be shocked by the drop in care given to most horses in areas like this. Farm and ranch areas are filled with livestock owners, not horse owners that look at their one horse as a pet. We make decisions every day based on the value of the horse and cost of care. It is how we survive whether it is concerning cattle, hogs, sheep or horses. 

Back when a fat slaughter horse had a value of $900.00 to $1000.00, almost everyone that owned a lot of them took better care of them, fed them better and tried to keep them fat. Then, when an older mare or older cow did not conceive, she went to the sale fat -- because she was worth a lot more that way. Now, it makes little difference. A lot of people try to hang on to them because they really do not want to sell them and just hope they can hang on on until their is green grass or a better job or ???? When it does not work out or you have a huge drought like last year, they have a really skinny bunch of horses in their back pasture. There are hundreds of them around here. There are thousands of them that have gone through the local sale since 2006. 

So, do your homework before you blame the economy. It only made a bad problem worse.


----------



## natisha

Cherie, thank you for your in depth analysis & explanation. I believe you.
It hasn't changed my mind about the cruelty/terror involved but I now have a better understanding of why some people resort to sending a horse off. Personally, I still couldn't do it though.


----------



## Clava

natisha said:


> Personally, I still couldn't do it though.


 
Nor could I, but I think the point it that some people need to be able to for the benefit of horses which is why I am Pro.


----------



## Cherie

It has been years since I 'dumped' a horse at a sale and I didn't care where he went. He was not a good horse and was one I never would have sold privately. I wanted him gone and off the feed bill. 

Our own horses that we have had and loved never get dumped at a sale, but are shot on the back end of our place and feed the coyotes and ???? They are 'put down' here at home. There have been a few that 'tough old Indian husband' could not shoot, so a neighbor came over and did it. [Husband has gone to his house and done the same for him.] 

I am very attached to most of my horses. I have cried my eyes out for some of them. 

But, I STILL OWN THEM. IF I WANTED TO SELL THEM, I WANT THAT RIGHT AND I WANT A PLACE TO SELL THEM AT!!! 

Is there something about ownership of personal property that some of you do not understand?


----------



## capercowgirl

Speed Racer said:


> Really? So it's only HORSES you consider a sin to slaughter, and not all those other animals? After all, they're not pretty like horses, so it's okay to kill and eat_ them_. :roll:
> 
> LOLZ! :-x



Can you go to McDonald's and go get a horse burger? No, because it is not acceptable in our society today to eat horse meat.. This comment is irrelevant.


----------



## smrobs

Cherie said:


> I will ask again -- to these 24 people that are against slaughter:
> 
> *What would you want done with hundreds of thousands of horses that are now being sold to slaughter in Mexico and Canada? *
> 
> *Just because YOU don't like the idea of slaughter does not mean that these horses will disappear like magic. *
> 
> *Would you prefer that they be turned out in State Parks and along highways to be hit by cars? (Many already are, by the way.)*
> 
> *Would you prefer that they be starved in a back pasture because someone cannot buy feed for them, cannot give them away and don't even have a sale that will be able to sell them?*
> 
> *Where do think they will go if there was not a buyer there to buy them and take them to Mexico? *
> 
> *Don't tell me what 'should' happen and what others 'should' do. In the 'here and now', tell me what 'will' happen to all of these hundreds of thousands of horses that are completely UNWANTED and have no other place to go and no one that will feed them?*
> 
> *We're waiting!*


 
I'm still wandering about answers to these questions.......

I have a 6 year old gelding that was given to me. He's big, he's gorgeous, he's registered....and he's dangerous. He's not aggressive or anything, but he is a bucker, a _bad_ bucker and neither I nor my Dad (who has trained more raunchy horses than most normal folks will ever even see) can get him over it. He's not in pain, been checked out, he just went through a bad training experience before he came to me and it broke his mind. Now he's good for _nothing _except eating hay that costs me $300+ a ton. Who wants him? Seriously, I'll give him to you for free. 

I can't afford to keep, feed, and care for him for the next 20-30 years, especially if I can't safely use him. I've got a pasture full of older retired horses that _earned_ their place, they _earned_ their right to be kept fat and happy through all their ending "worthless" years, and they _earned_ their right to be quietly euthed in their own pasture and buried with the respect that they deserve not only as pets, but as productive members of the family. 

Nobody wants to pay money for a proven bucker that can't be safely ridden, who's going to take him? I suppose if I wanted to be dishonest, I could likely drug him up and dupe some gullible buyer into taking him home, but what would that accomplish...other than to get some poor person hurt?

So I'll repeat the questions posed above. What happens to this horse?? Nobody will buy him, I can't give him away (unless someone who believes in butterflies and happy endings wants to take him on), I simply cannot afford to keep him. 

Or, maybe someone would like to tell me which of my older _good_ horses should be put down just to make room for him? :?


----------



## bubba13

Sell 'im to a stock contractor!


----------



## smrobs

LOL, I've actually thought of that. Brother has Robert Etbauer's phone number and that is likely the only place he'll be useful.

ETA: Oh, wait, rodeos are even more cruel than slaughter!!! What to do, what to do!


:lol:


----------



## natisha

smrobs said:


> LOL, I've actually thought of that. Brother has Robert Etbauer's phone number and that is likely the only place he'll be useful.
> 
> ETA: Oh, wait, rodeos are even more cruel than slaughter!!! What to do, what to do!
> 
> 
> :lol:


Why not have him PTS?


----------



## smrobs

I will if it comes to that, but I try not to go that route until I know 100%, for certain, that there is _no_ other option...or until the meat prices go back up.

Though, at my house, a horse like that would get a .35 cent bullet instead of a $200 vet bill.


----------



## demonwolfmoon

capercowgirl said:


> Can you go to McDonald's and go get a horse burger? No, because it is not acceptable in our society today to eat horse meat.. This comment is irrelevant.


Disagree. If I went somewhere in France, I bet I could find a good expensive horse steak.
Clearly acceptable there....


----------



## demonwolfmoon

natisha said:


> Why not have him PTS?


In all honesty, I don't get this...so say you have a dangerous horse. And you decide to end him via 200 dollar vet bill...or .35 cent bullet. What is the difference between him and a dangerous bull? 

Societal norms are "written" by the society...and we clearly have a disconnect between "pro" and "anti" here. X_X

ETA: I just think that if you're going to down a "dangerous" but edible animal, it makes his death less of a waste if he's consumed. Is that the Native American in me or something????

edit edit edit: I still don't like meat, and I would find carnivore especially distasteful somehow...in case anyone wants to ask me if I feel like eating dog.


----------



## natisha

demonwolfmoon said:


> In all honesty, I don't get this...so say you have a dangerous horse. And you decide to end him via 200 dollar vet bill...or .35 cent bullet. What is the difference between him and a dangerous bull?
> 
> Societal norms are "written" by the society...and we clearly have a disconnect between "pro" and "anti" here. X_X
> 
> ETA: I just think that if you're going to down a "dangerous" but edible animal, it makes his death less of a waste if he's consumed. Is that the Native American in me or something????
> 
> edit edit edit: I still don't like meat, and I would find carnivore especially distasteful somehow...in case anyone wants to ask me if I feel like eating dog.


I think a dangerous bull would require a rifle


----------



## FlyGap

Cherie thank you for your posts and providing FACTS.

We use rural country vets and our costs have risen exponentially due to the downturn in their volume. INCREASED by at LEAST 60%. A farm call used to cost $35 now it's $80 and each procedure is much higher. Have any of the anti people observed this???? It's costing me more because of the ban and lack of care given to unwanted horses.
I feel so sorry for their families, our vet sold his nice antique waiting room furniture and put his back porch folding chairs in. And I'm sure it was to cover the bills.

It's hard for everyone.

When we purchased the first horse we paid for she cost $505. $5 more than the meat man was willing to pay. She was a greenbroke grade grey mare, that was in 1990.
My very great friend has been breeding registered buckskin qh's for the past 20 years. She now has 19 exceptionally well trained/bred horses. Most of them were born right before and after the ban. Usually she could sell her super gentle halter broke yearlings for at least $1,000. She couldn't get more than $100 for them. So she invested $1,000s in training hoping they would sell higher. She is still struggling to get a fair price for what she has in them. With the drought and hay skyrocket she had to put down her retired horses to feed the younger ones. She came and stayed with me for days because she was so devastated and couldn't stand to be there for it. SHE is a responsible breeder and is MORE than having to suffer because all this nonsense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## demonwolfmoon

FlyGap said:


> she had to put down her retired horses to feed the younger ones. She came and stayed with me for days because she was so devastated and couldn't stand to be there for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am very very sorry for your friend, FlyGap...=(


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## bsms

demonwolfmoon said:


> In all honesty, I don't get this...so say you have a dangerous horse. And you decide to end him via 200 dollar vet bill...or .35 cent bullet. What is the difference between him and a dangerous bull?...


The difference is that a bull can earn money and pay his own way, while a dangerous horse isn't worth a cup of warm spit.

I've got a registered Arabian mare who is spooky enough that she isn't worth a penny on today's market. She is trainable, and after 2 months of training the trainer felt good enough about her to actual ride her for 5 minutes on Friday...but I'll end up with about $1200 in training bills on a horse that still wouldn't sell for over $500.

That is OK by me, because we've been together for 4 years and we like each other. So it is worth it to ME to train her. But some horses cannot be fixed by training. If she couldn't, I'd put her down. She hasn't earned a 20+ year retirement.


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## Cherie

The difference between a mean bull and a mean horse is that the bull still has value. An 1800# bologna bull is selling for around $80.00 / cwt making him worth over $1400.00.

smrobs -- You don't owe that bronc anything. Does Bobby Edmond still have a sale in Amarillo? Stock Contractors usually were there or had friends there. Someone will try him.

I know it is a long way, but he would sell pretty decent here at Sulphur. The last horse that went through the Sulphur Sale that they said bucked everybody off brought $400.00 or $500.00.

We also have a local neighbor that has a Junior Rodeo string. They do not have to be as big and stout as the PRCA horses. If you would like to call him, PM me for his phone number. 

But I cannot imagine a reason in the world with feed prices this high that you owe him your good feed. Good horses are too cheap right now take a chance on getting hurt on a dink bronc. Sell him!

As far as eating horses -- you could buy horse-meat when I was a kid. The reason they have the old 1947 Texas law on the books is because butcher shops were selling horse-meat and labeling it as beef during and after WW II. The TSCRA (Texas and Southwestern Cattle Raisers Assoc. to everyone not from this part of the country) pushed for a law making it illegal to sell it because they wanted to sell more beef. 

Almost all of the rest of the World either eats horse-meat on a regular basis or has nothing against it. America is pretty much alone in our personal 'taboo' against horse-meat. It is not unexpected as we are one of the most wasteful nations in the world. Not too many other countries would think it was better to kill something edible by using a poison that made it inedible and actually make it toxic to anything that might find it and try to eat it. Only in America can we be that stupid.

Oh! And I am also still waiting for the very first answer to my valid questions.


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## Gremmy

Man I missed a lot of fun. Becca, you live in _ALBERTA_. I lived there for a good decade and when it comes to matters like this, I would love to be back there. To say that "where you're from" people are against slaughter, tells me that you need to get off the computer, and talk to people in your community. Or better yet, observe. Read the news, read the threads on here and elsewhere, learn about these things before forming an opinion. That's a big life lesson that many people miss out on. As far as I know there is still an active horse slaughter facility in Alberta (feel free to correct me there) and there are still farms that raise horses for meat. Even here in liberal-as-all-heck Vancouver, I could find horse meat without too much difficulty. It's not illegal in Canada and there are people who eat it.

Take this from the Alberta Equestrian Federation for instance (not to be regarded as the be all and end all of Alberta's majority opinion, but still a more sizeable group of Albertans):

FAQ's - Alberta Equestrian Federation

"Q. What is the AEF's position on the Horse Processing Industry?
The Alberta Equestrian Federation advocates the humane treatment of all horses and believes that the equine industry and horse owners have a responsibility to provide humane care throughout the life of the horse.
The Alberta Equestrian Federation recognizes that the processing of horses is a reality of the equine industry in the Province of Alberta. As such, the processing industry provides a humane alternative to allowing the horse to continue a life of discomfort and pain, inadequate care or abandonment. It should be noted that this does not in anyway indicate the Alberta Equestrian Federation supports Horse Slaughter, however, as processing is a reality in Alberta, the Alberta Equestrian Federation works in conjunction with the Horse Welfare Alliance of Canada and other organizations that ensure standards of practice are being met and horses are treated in a humane way and with dignity. The Alberta Equestrian Federation encourages, fosters and provides education regarding responsible ownership and management that will reduce the number of unwanted horses.
Regarding the care of horses destined for processing, Alberta Equestrian Federation's position is that these horses should be:
Treated humanely and with dignity;
Transported to the production facility according to current national regulations;
Euthanized in accordance with the guidelines adopted and published by the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association as of February 2006."

Keep in mind that Prime Minister Harper is from Alberta as well. While I'm not his biggest fan and didn't vote him in, I've been pleased that he doesn't bend over to emotional arguments and Canada did not follow suit with the U.S.'s "ban" (as I'll call it for the sake of simplicity) on slaughter. Especially given the current change down south, it is highly unlikely that Canada will end slaughter at this point - and with well directed efforts can work to reform our current industry and continue to improve the conditions for slaughter bound horses. Makes me proud to be a Canadian.


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## natisha

It seems the pro is more about money than the anti. 
Economics vs emotions. Economics wins almost every time.


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## Clava

natisha said:


> It seems the pro is more about money than the anti.
> Economics vs emotions. Economics wins almost every time.


As money is required to feed and keep horses healthy, it is always about money, emotions seem to just make people irrational about things.


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## bsms

A surprising number of 'moral' issues come down to economics. Since resources are limited, how you dole those resources out affects your 'moral' choices.

I don't give money to folks standing on the street. I do give to reputable charities. I want to help the poor, but I also want to know the money I give goes for needs, not booze.

I'd love to see all horses have happy lives. I'd also like to see no hungry children, and world peace, but I don't have the resources to solve the problems of the entire world.

Once I accept that, then my moral choices are affected by economics. A liberal is someone who wants to be compassionate with someone else's money. A compassionate conservative is a liberal who goes to church and wants to tell others what they must do. A conservative minds his own business & manages his own money as best he can. I'm a conservative. I have one more horse than I know what to do with, and that is my limit on relieving suffering in the equine world.


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## natisha

Clava said:


> As money is required to feed and keep horses healthy, it is always about money, emotions seem to just make people irrational about things.


That is especially true where politics are concerned.

Does having money & emotions decrease the importance of either?


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## Clava

natisha said:


> That is especially true where politics are concerned.
> 
> Does having money & emotions decrease the importance of either?


 
They are both important, but when devising a system that is to work for many and on an econimic basis, then money matters - saying no slaughter because your emotions think it terrible is irrational because when thought through the alternative is actually more distress and hardship for some animals (as said before there are worse things than dying).


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## demonwolfmoon

Clava said:


> *as said before there are worse things than dying).*


...This is a good point, in general, about life... =(


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## AlexS

natisha said:


> Unlike stray dogs, cats & wild mustangs most conceptions are due to man's actions. I'm not saying no one should breed but maybe we should look at what we are breeding & why. Good horses with good breeding & training are still in demand. I looked for over 3 years for my mare & I paid over 'market price' for her. I will not breed her.


And sadly, that's what we can't control. Even here on this board where people come for discussions and opinions, there are many people who are advised not to breed their wonky horse - I bet a good number of them still do. 

If it were possible to control the actions of others, there would be no abused children, no crappy moms, no animal abuse etc. As a foster parent, I would happily be unemployed - but that's never going to happen. With both horses and children, there will always be a higher demand for good homes than there are available.


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## Gremmy

I spent the first half of my business degree hating it because of its focus on money. I can see where the point of view comes from. In the end both are capable of severely clouding one's judgement. Decisions based purely on emotions OR the fiscal bottom line, are usually bad ones. To say that the "pro slaughter" (and as many have pointed out, "pro choice" may be more relevant) is completely based on economics is an unfair assumption. I see the necessity of slaughter, but I do not support it as a part of responsible ownership. I have known horse owners who sent their horses to the feedlots when they were perfectly capable of having the horse properly put down, and it has infuriated me just as much as owners who see dumping their dog or cat at the SPCA as a responsible decision.

In fact, perhaps that is an example worth noting. Slaughter is not unlike many animal shelters where the unadoptable pets sit in unfamiliar surroundings before being euthanized. In the dog and cat world, the heat is directed to irresponsible breeding in its many forms. I don't think I've ever seen a movement towards shutting down all animal shelters/rescues that resort to euthanasia in any way - and these ARE pets who are loved and cherished, but we seem to for the most part accept that we cannot save them all, and focus our efforts on prevention. Why is horse slaughter so different? Because of what is done with the carcass afterwards? Is it because of the perceived value obtained from the meat? (despite it being a cheap niche market?) What is done with dog and cat carcasses after euthanasia? (an honest question, I've heard everything from cremation to pet food to dissection)

To simplify, here as the questions I have for the anti slaughter argument at this point:

- Dogs and cats are not considered food animals, but have a similar outlet in animal shelters that euthanize unadoptable animals. Following the supposed argument behind shutting down slaughterhouses, why is there not a movement for shutting down these animal shelters?

- Following the above question, what is the biggest aversion to horse slaughter that is prompting people to push for shutting down the industry entirely instead of improving it? Is it the haul to the facility, the holding pens/injured horses suffering longer than necessary, the killing process itself (bolt gun, gunshot, and the odds of missing the target and prolonging suffering), the inspection process (use of medications on pet animals - this is irrelevant to animal welfare, so assuming this must be a concern for our fellow man eating potentially unsafe meat?), or the fact that the horse is used for meat, period?

- Again based on the above, once the big aversion has been narrowed down, why is shutting down the entire industry still more desirable to improvement? hauling distances can be improved, strategies put in place to ensure that the killing process operates on a sort of "triage" system, where the suffering are killed quicker, staff can be trained and more closely monitored to ensure the kill process is quick and painless - better designed boxes to minimize stress can be build, meat can be inspected and research can be funded to develop this field - how long certain medications take to leave the system, effects of trace amounts and which are safe, ways to test, etc - also public demand from those _who eat horse meat_ for safer meat, are all solutions that could greatly improve the industry and the poor horses that end up there. Why is more energy put into stopping slaughter entirely instead of addressing these issues?

I've seen the argument of taxpayers not wanting their money to go towards horse meat inspection so I figured I'd touch on that since I brought up funding things like regulation, inspection, and funding for research. I'm only familiar with corporate business from a predominately Canadian perspective, but here our businesses big and small are taxpayers themselves. The slaughterhouses operate as businesses, either domestic or foreign owned. They pay the government where the facility is located taxes on their revenues, plus provide the jobs and employee income that in turn is taxed. Point being that the government isn't funding the meat inspection without getting anything in return; if you want to think about your tax dollars being put towards things you care about, I'm sure the slaughter industry cares much more about their tax dollars going towards meat inspection and other areas relevant to them, than they do about education, healthcare, and national defense. 

Public and political pressure to improve - as well as competition from other companies - is what encourages companies to improve their practices and put their own non-tax funding and put it towards research and development. This industry is no different, so why is improvement the lesser option?


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## Gremmy

Just wanted to add to my comment on the perceived value of horse meat (and the underlying point beneath it - the argument that slaughter encourages horse theft), this is an incident that came to light recently near here, suggesting that the same is once again true with some animal rescues where their adoption fees/donations are not necessarily going entirely back to the animals' care. Does that mean that all rescues should be shut down and not just closely monitored?

Pet rescuers charged with B.C. dog thefts - British Columbia - CBC News


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## natisha

", so why is improvement the lesser option?" 



Because there has been no evidence of pending improvement. The same cattle geared assembly line approach will be used.

By the way, great post.


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## kevinshorses

Why do you say that there is no evidence of pending improvement? Are you in a position to see it if there was any?


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## smrobs

Cherie said:


> smrobs -- You don't owe that bronc anything. Does Bobby Edmond still have a sale in Amarillo? Stock Contractors usually were there or had friends there. Someone will try him.
> 
> I know it is a long way, but he would sell pretty decent here at Sulphur. The last horse that went through the Sulphur Sale that they said bucked everybody off brought $400.00 or $500.00.
> 
> We also have a local neighbor that has a Junior Rodeo string. They do not have to be as big and stout as the PRCA horses. If you would like to call him, PM me for his phone number.


Yeah, I know. I appreciate your offer of that number but I do have Etbauer's number (got it from brother today) and he runs broncs out of the OK panhandle, that's a much shorter drive. I likely won't get any money for "*******", but at this point, I don't care, I just want rid of him. :lol:

It really is a pity though, he's got nearly perfect conformation and he's 16.2 hands of pure muscle and athleticism. He would have made someone a **** good using horse had his previous owner not ruined him.


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## natisha

kevinshorses said:


> Why do you say that there is no evidence of pending improvement? Are you in a position to see it if there was any?


Because there is no evidence. We're all in a position to see. With all the coverage this has been getting if there were new ways being proposed wouldn't it make sense that some PR firm would be shouting about it? We know who proposed to lift the ban, what States want to open slaughter houses & have financial backing for them but no mention of improved conditions. Why would anyone keep that a secret or hide the evidence?

http://billingsgazette.com/news/sta...cle_96be86d6-91af-5aa4-a31a-b321fff27e04.html


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## Gremmy

But what is pushing them towards improvement if public demand is for them to shut down completely? The movement towards a complete ban on slaughter and the sale of horse meat has seen far more publicity than demands to improve the practice without shutting it down. Since horse slaughter in the U.S. has only been a viable industry for...less than two months? I would think that they'd need time to get up and running again to establish what their practices are going to be before being scrutinized.

In Canada I would argue that we are seeing improvement - facilities that were exposed for blatant disregard of protocol have been reprimanded and even shut down, and new legislation was introduced a short time ago regarding withdrawal times for medications. Demand from the EU for safe meat and from Canadians for humane treatment does seem to be making an impact.


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## Supermane

The main problem I see with slaughter is that, at least here in the US, horses aren't fit for consumption because they aren't raised for it and aren't regulated as "food animals"

Think about it, we raise them as pets; wormers, fly spray, meds, things we give them on a daily basis. With all the stuff that horses in the US are exposed to, I wouldn't feed the meat to my dog 


However, I would much rather slaughter be done here, where is can be regulated, rather than the horses being shipped in trailers with too many horses across the boarder.


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## kevinshorses

Supermane said:


> The main problem I see with slaughter is that, at least here in the US, horses aren't fit for consumption because they aren't raised for it and aren't regulated as "food animals"
> 
> Think about it, we raise them as pets; wormers, fly spray, meds, things we give them on a daily basis. With all the stuff that horses in the US are exposed to, I wouldn't feed the meat to my dog
> 
> 
> However, I would much rather slaughter be done here, where is can be regulated, rather than the horses being shipped in trailers with too many horses across the boarder.


Cattle are given the same wormers and fly spray and meds. There is nothing that is given to a horse that doesn't leave thier systems in under 90 days. In another of the many slaughter threads someone posted a link to research done by the canadian government that found that something like 98% of horses were completely drug free when tested after slaughter. Cattle and swine were a few points lower.

Don't believe the propaganda spouted by the anti-slaughter groups. Think for yourself.


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## hahaitslacey

Supermane said:


> However, I would much rather slaughter be done here, where is can be regulated, rather than the horses being shipped in trailers with too many horses across the boarder.


This is how I feel. It's sad that it has to be utilized, but until people stop breeding unnecessarily, it's the harsh reality those poor animals will have to face.


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## Gremmy

Interesting factoid - over the past few years Canada has had a bit of a dairy war going on. New ideas have surfaced about the benefits of raw unpasteurized milk, and many people want the choice to drink it. It's as illegal as heroin here, I believe the law is that only the owner of the cow can legally drink the unpasteurized milk - not even his family can (legally speaking). With the demand for raw milk rising, some farmers started working around the system to allow people to purchase raw milk from them - they do so by purchasing partial ownership of the cow. The Canadian government freaked out and went after a couple of farmers doing this, and it's been an ongoing debate ever since.

Point being, many Canadians feel that they should be free to choose what kind of milk they want to drink. The government has the same argument seen here about horse meat, that it can be unsafe and can cause illness. However many argue that it is their body, and therefore their decision to take that risk. In terms of the horse meat, is it up to the government to control the food supply by making those decisions for the public, or should it be up to the public to choose what they decide to put in their bodies? Should the potential dangers of horse meat be of any concern to those who don't plan on eating it?


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## goneriding

The people are the government. Have we forgotten this?


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## Gremmy

Sometimes I think our government has :lol:


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## Gremmy

To add on that note though,

We've got pressure on the government from two sides of this issue (and many others including the topic of this thread, equine slaughter), the people who want to be able to choose raw milk in my example, and the dairy industry - many farmers are all for it, but for the larger businesses it would mean either losing part of their business to the smaller farms willing to provide raw milk, or adjust their own industry to be able to provide both on a massive scale while maintaining the strict quality standards raw milk would require, which would be an extremely costly adjustment. So you've got two groups lobbying the government, all canadian citizens, those who want the option and those whose businesses would suffer as a result (as well as those concerned about public safety and simply don't want it available to anyone, period.). The government is a representative of both parties but needs to make one decision. This is why I'm enjoying this debate, it is interesting to see people's insights from both sides, and it's also very important for people to thoroughly understand the issues and form an informed opinion, because it does affect government action and change doesn't typically happen until the scale tips one way or the other as it tends to do when two opposed parties reach better understanding.


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## Cheydako

Well, I don't like horses to suffer, nor do I like them to be killed. I'm not going to vote Pro-Slaughter because that just sums all types of slaughter up into one. I would be Pro-Humane Slaughter and only for the worst cases, even though I still don't like it.


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## crisslyon

I can't say I know alot about the slaughtering of horses but I look at it this way.

Every year I take a bull, two to three deer, and numerous wild hogs for processing for me and my family to eat. I don't have the inclination to eat my horses but if it I considered them livestock and raised them as such it wouldn't bother me at all to have them "slaughtered" "processed" what ever. Most people don't cry about their yummy steak their eating!

On the other end I keep reading about the slaughter of 20 y/o horses. Who would want to eat an animal that old???? I certainly wouldn't shoot a 500lb wild hog and eat it!!! 

Love my horses but I follow what my parents and grandparents did. Although it's always hard, If any animal in our household is suffering a bullet is fairly cheap and if done correctly they won't suffer. 

Just a thought... if an animal out in the wild is severly injured or low in the herd and there is a severe drought what happens? They die...slowly.. it's natures way, survival of the fittest. The world is not all lollypops and sugar plums and we as people need to stop trying to save everything.


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## cowgirlup07

I'm really anti slaughter. If I have to kill my horse, I'd prefer to bury him/her, yes bury. I won't take one to auction because I know what happens to the old horses, nobody wants them even if its the most kid friendly animal there people will hear the magic "well here we have a safe sound 22year old mare, look how easy she is for that little girl!" and because her age alone she's sold to the kill buyer, still fat and healthy without 1 issue or lameness and she's STILL killed! If cows, pigs etc were our "pets" companions and BEST FRIENDS we wouldn't kill them either.


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## doubleopi

While I would probably not choose to send my horse to auction if I ever had a choice in the matter, I have no problem with utilizing the body (meat, hide, bones, hooves) of any and all animals. And actually I would consider that the final gift she could give!
The things I don't like are the way many people treat their horses before they die (both private owners and the feedlots/kill buyers). Honestly people also think that lethal injection is completely, 100% humane but as every animal reacts differently to different medications so will they react differently to the lethal injection. In fact, at my (small animal) vet if you want to be in the room when your pet in euthanized they sedate them before giving the actual lethal injections because some animals will panic when the barbiturates enter their bloodstream and have a very painful, difficult and disturbing death. Contrast that with a well place bullet to the brain stem that is instantaneous brain death (the muscles do continue to contract for sometime afterwards but that does not indicate that the animal is alive just that the muscles didn’t die as fast as the brain).
I definitely used to be a bleeding heart anti-slaughter type when I was younger but as I get older and learn about the different ways animals die (and live) I have come to accept that everything must die somehow. After their death, the body is just a body and no longer houses that personality or grace or splendor that you love and cherish.
Hopefully as my husband and I get settled we will be able to begin to raise some of our own meat/eggs/milk and grow vegetables. I would love to have a farm where I wouldn’t have to buy food products like meat, eggs, milk and most vegetables. I do not, personally, enjoy witnessing the death of any animal but sometimes it really is in their best interest. And after life has let, the body is just that, a body that should not be wasted if at all possible.
JMO


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## EquestrianCowgirl4

I do not suport slaughter one bit! But I would rather have horses being slaughtered in the U.S because it is more humane than in Canada and Mexico! 
BUT I THINK IT SHOULD STOP ALL OVER THE WORLD!
And if your horse is hurt or ingured or in pain be a responsible horse owner and have it _Euthanized !_
_Plus I don't think people should breed horses anymore there are enough horses out there looking for good homes and some out there where you could rescue and make a world of diffrence for it! I rescued a horse from an abusive man and it was the best investment I have ever made. We are now training in bareels and she loves life!_


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## EquestrianCowgirl4

U.S I don't know why they said you.s haha I ment U.S as in the united states haha


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## poundinghooves

lacyloo said:


> I vote that we change the Title, "Horse Slaughter" to "Equine processing".
> Just as we would say for any livestock.
> I don't see the point in letting a bunch of lame/older/aggressive horses sit in a pasture to live out their lives heavily medicated or left to suffer.
> _Euthanize or Auction. _
> 
> So yes, Pro.


 I get what you are saying completely but what about all the amazing, wonderful horses out there who have LOTS of good life left in them that get sent to auction and then to slaughter? A huge majority of the horses that go to slaughter are perfectly good. That's what I hate about slaughter and being a huge animal rights activist I can not support it.


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## faye

poundinghooves i can only assume from your posts that you would far rather have said horses starve to death on an empty lot?
Starving is a horrific death, unfortunatly people are in no position at the moment to have a healthy horse shot if they can no longer afford to keep it and unfortunatly very few people are in the position to be able to buy horses and if they do it is generaly young competition horses that they are after.

so slaughter for these horses is often the most humane way to deal with the excess numbers, or it would be if the idiots hadnt brought in the stupid ban in the US.

Humane slaughter is exactly that HUMANE. i've worked in properly regulated abattoirs and the animals feel no fear or pain.

Unfortunatly it is animal rights activists like you who have closed the humane slaughter houses that are closely regulated and forced the industry to do horrificly long journeys to other countries. Unfortunatly one of those countries is Mexico where the horses suffer horrific and barbaric deaths, normaly paralysed by a knife in the spine, hung up by a back leg whilst concious and then bled out.
I'd far far rather a nice regulated slaughter house in the US where it is one bullet or captive bolt and it is all over. No pain, very little fear (only what any horse would get in a new situation) and a quick clean end.

In an ideal world no one would breed horses that didnt have a use, everyone would care for thier horses untill they died of old age but we are not in an ideal world, people would rather feed thier kids and keep a roof oer thier heads than feed an older horse who would be concidered a luxury no matter how sweet or beautiful that horse is.

I do wish animal rights activists would think of the conciquences of thier actions before they start on ill advised idiotic schemes to protect animals and end up making the situation worse.


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## poundinghooves

faye- OK I get what you are saying.... to a degree. When the horses leave to slaughter houses aren't they PACKED into trailers? That's what I heard and if that is true that is NOT humane. Also, I know there is NO WAY on earth the horse rescues can take all the homeless hores but they can take some horses. Why don't people see if their local rescue would take their horse before they just send it off to auction where it will probably go on to slaughter? It's not so much the slaughter I am against as it is how people don't at least try everything they can think of before just taking it to slaughter. Occasionaly a quiet old horse is good enough to go to a therapeutic riding center but do ignorant people stop and think about that? Nope, they just send them to auction. No, I would not rather them be shipped out of country. I have seen pictures of what goes on and it is horrendous. Maybe you are right about everything you have said but I still do not support it. I am definitely not against every aspect of it but there are parts of it that I just don't like.

Also, yes, I am an animal rights activist but not one of those crazy ones that think every little think is inhumane. I would hardly call the "schemes" animal rights activists come up with as "idiotic". Animal rights activist (including me)boycott pet stores that sell puppies. Whats idiotic about that? Yes, they may not be right about everything but that doesn't make it idiotic.


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## Speed Racer

To me, the term 'animal rights activist' translates to 'animal rights terrorist'. 

Animals do not have RIGHTS. If you said you were an animal _welfare_ advocate, then I might take you seriously. Since you seem to think that animals should be given rights, I'm going to lump you in with all the crazies in PETA, HSUS, and ALF.

Animals are _not_ people in fur suits that walk on all fours and don't speak clearly. Far too many nutcases think that way though, and they're the majority of supporters for all the animal rights groups. I'm all for the humane treatment and proper welfare of animals, but they're _not_ humans and don't have the cognitive abilities to understand 'rights'. We owe them humane stewardship; we do_ not _owe them rights or to treat them as peers.

I hope if you're an animal _rights_ activist that you're a full bore vegan, don't ride horses, don't keep dogs or cats as pets, walk everywhere instead of taking vehicles, eat only plant matter that you've grown yourself, wear clothing made from only cotton that you've grown and loomed, and _certainly_ don't have tack of any kind. Even synthetic tack is made from animals, because petroleum was originally dinosaurs who became fossilized.

Oh, and you need to get rid of your computer, because the synthetics with which it was made are also from petroleum products.


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## Sunny

I'm on my phone so I can't "like" anything, so I'm going to have to do it through type.

^^^ LIKELIKELIKE.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye

Shelters are full and they don't pay you for your animal, nor do most theraputic riding centres.

When the money made by the sale of a horse could be the difference between keeping and loosing your house you are not going to give it away for free.

If you are such an animal rights activist I **** well hope you dont have any leather products at all as they are a by product of animal slaughter, I hope you don't have any wool or products either as those are animal products. Silk harvesting results in the death of the animal. Wool is a by product of the meat trade (whilst the animal is growing old enough to slaughter you get wool from it!)

I hope you dont use ANY modern medicines as all have been tested on animals and most cosmetics have as well.

Look what the lovely animal rights activists did in america! they made the situation WORSE!!!!!!! instead of humane slaughter after short journeys (no matter how crammed) they have barbaric torturous deaths after extremely long journeys.

in the UK they banned hunting foxes with dogs, foxes are now being poisoned left right and centre, the population has boomed and thus they are killing far more lambs then they used to, they are moving into cities and getting hit by cars, they regularly die of gangreen.
All beacuse animal rights activists didnt do thier homework, yes dogs may chase the fox but that is no different to what a wolf would do to them (except humans hunted the wolf out of existance about 600 years ago in the UK) and yes they tear the fox apart and eat it, but not untill after death, a dog will snap a foxes neck fairly easily and this is instant death. The dog then proceeds to tear it aopart and eat it, so at least the fox isnt wasted.
Oh and lets not go into how the poisons are affecting other wildlife.


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## poundinghooves

Speed Racer- I am afraid I simply must disagree with you. Animals do indeed have rights. The right to be fed, watered, sheltered and treated humanely. Those are animal *rights*. I assure you I am not a crazy, insane member of PETA. I do believe that humans are more important than animals and that animals are not humans. However, I have known some low-life humans so idiotic, scummy and down right worthless to society that I actually do believe my dog has more of a purpose to live than they do. I belive that animals were put on Earth for our use. I do believe in eating animals, wearing leather and riding horses. BUT I believe when an animal is killed it should be for a good reason and it should be done HUMANELY. I still say I am an animal rights activist. Just on a different level than what you're thinking of it as.

Faye- I stated that I know there is no way rescues can take ALL the animals. I highly doubt an animal sold at auction is actually going to save someone's house. It may for that month's mortgage but when the next month roles around and you don't have the money and don't have another horse to sell than your horse is slaughtered AND you don't have a house, it just happened a moth later. And for your info I flat-out refuse to use a cosmetic tested on animals! Medicine is different because it helps people. Cosmetics don't (they just make girls look "prettier") and if a cosmetic has been tested on animals than I won't buy it. The testing that goes on in the labs is horrendous. So you see as I said I am an animal rights activist just not a crazy one. I believe a lot of what you say about slaughter but did you know that even when horse slaughter was legal in the USA (before it was banned in 2007) thousands of horses were STILL shipped out of country to be slaughtered? So opening slaughter houses in America only saves a small percentage of the horses from being taken out of country and dying terrible deaths. Please read this article from the ASPCA (All I ask is that you read it than you can decide what you think of it):
ASPCA | Horse Slaughter


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## Gremmy

There is nothing worth thinking about in that article. Just more slanted "facts" playing on ignorance of the general public - and that is not meant as an insult. You can't expect the average Joe to know the ins and outs of the horse meat industry. So many of their statements involve half truths or making a "grey" area seem black and white. Things like no export taxes? Of course the export of horse meat isn't taxed - since there allegedly is no demand for horse meat in the US, there is no reason to make efforts to keep it in the country, which is what an export tax does. 

Now if you wanted to limit the live horses themselves from crossing the border that would be an option, but what people don't understand is that slapping restrictions on trade like that isn't so simple. Nevermind how difficult that would be at the administrative level (wouldn't be so fun to try and take your horse to a show across the border anymore), but by doing so the country opens itself up to intervention by the WTO and retaliation from the affected country in the form of tariffs on goods you *want* to export.

As for the income tax, nice of the ASPCA to provide proof behind a statement like that. "little" compared to what? Being in Canada I look at US tax rates and think you all play "little" in income tax. Do they pay little compared to similar houses in the meat industry? compared to an accounting firm?



> To be clear: Horse slaughter is NOT humane euthanasia.


*sigh* Says who? Lots of discussion about that statement alone in these threads.

I get your position PH, but what I get from your argument is that once again, the problem doesn't lie with the slaughterhouses themselves but the people who send them there. Unfortunately those people aren't looking at the ASPCA "slaughter alternatives" page, and they don't try harder to find homes because they just don't care. The question is how do you regulate those people without hurting the responsible horse owners? Stopping slaughter didn't make them care.


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## PaintMare

lacyloo said:


> I vote that we change the Title, "Horse Slaughter" to "Equine processing".
> Just as we would say for any livestock.
> I don't see the point in letting a bunch of lame/older/aggressive horses sit in a pasture to live out their lives heavily medicated or left to suffer.
> _Euthanize or Auction. _
> 
> So yes, Pro.


 
Most of the horses sent to slaughter are actually not lame, old or agressive. Some are but there are many that are young, healthy and friendly. Most people just need to get rid of the horses that they can't afford or can't take care of anymore. So they send them to slaughter. It could be a lame, old horse they can't afford or a young, green but healthy horse that they don't have time to train. It varies. And you also have to consider the fact that "slaughtered" or "processed" horses are usually sent to be eaten in other countries. Which is extremly unhealthy for the people consuming the horse meat...since horses are given supplements, dewormers and other meds....that are still in their system. Which results in tainted meat....which is very unhealthy to consume.

Another issue we should be dealing with is nurse mare foals. I think another main problem is the lack of education people have with the nurse mare foals. It seems to me that most people are well educated or at least know what equine slaughter and equine meat consumption is....but very few people seem to know what a nurse mare foal is. Or they get it confused with pmu foals. Which is completely different.


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## wyominggrandma

Animal rights activists spend all their time trying to convince people that they are for the animals..when in fact a true animal rights activist(PETA,HSUS<) do not want anyone to own any animal at all. 
I am sure you are also against hunting, I am sure you fight for wolves rights to not be killed even though they are killing buffalo, moose, and elk and deer until there are none left, I am sure you don't like rodeo or horse racing or horse shows because they "use"animals and sometimes they get hurt.
Horse slaughter, horse euthanasia, dogs/cats being euthanized at the pound are all parts of animal ownership that happens. Sometimes it goes well, sometimes it is horrible. Not all humane societies use the needle when they put a bunch of pets to sleep, they use a chamber that explodes their hearts. Do you think that is humane? 
You say you boycott pets stores that sell puppies/kittens. Have you ever bred an animal? Dog, cat, horse, pig, cow, bird? If so, then you are just helping the exact thing you boycott.
I used to breed shelties and Berners. Had waiting lists of years of people who wanted to buy my puppies. I also sold a couple of show dogs to Japan for $5,000 and 10,000.. I have since quit breeding dogs, do not want to add to the population explosion.
Seems to me you are trying to fill shoes you know nothing about. A true animal activist is like told above, you don't own animals, don't eat animals, don't use animals. If you are such a activist, why not go to your local rescue and spend some time and money there and save a few animals, instead of trying to make the people who understand about horse slaughter and the necessity of it as the bad people.


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## Gremmy

If you don't eat the horse meat, then how does its questionable safety affect you? Those who buy the meat have shown concern for its safety and as a result, research as well as regulations on testing and withdrawal times have followed suit. Again a grey issue - not all medications stay in the meat, and some require a certain amount of time to be completely gone (hence feedlots), and not all are proven to be dangerous to humans in the amounts presented in the meat. It's no different than worrying about mercury in a can of tuna or medications in any other red meat for that matter. If you don't like it then don't buy it, and if those who do buy horse meat feel that way, then they can stop buying it too.

How does awareness about nurse mare foals change one's position on slaughter? It's no different than any other practice that involves mass horse breeding. I won't say "yay" or "nay" to the practice because I don't know it well enough, but slaughter didn't come from it. Slaughter provides an outlet, slaughter profits from it, but should slaughter be punished for it? What would shutting down slaughter to stop nurse mare foals from going there do? The main driver to that industry is not producing foals for slaughter - you're not hitting the heart of the industry, you're just cutting off a limb, and an alternative outlet for the excess would be found - possibly an even more undesirable one.


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## poundinghooves

Wyoming Grandma- NO I HAVE NOT bred any of my animals EVER! The only colt I ever owned I DID NOT breed my mare to get. I bought her after he was born. All my dogs and cats are spayed and neutered. You said the following: "Why not go to your local rescue and spend some time and money there and save a few animals". I HAVE adopted/rescued many animals and will never buy a dog from a breeder (no offense, I understand some animals must be bred or there will be no more animals) and I will certainly NEVER EVER buy from a pet store as the puppys are almost always from puppy mills. And of course, I do not think gas chambers are humane and I wish they were not used to put animals down. I am not a member of PETA or anything like that. I am an animal rights activist on a much smaller level than what you speak of. Please stop judging me. You don't even know me so you have no right to say some of the things you have said (like the statement about going to my local rescue and adopting). When I first put my opinion on this thread I knew I was going to be chewed out for it. But it's my opinion and I'm not changing. I have stated I understand some aspects of slaughter and that I am not completely against it. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I think horses should not be allowed to cross the border to be slaughtered. And I also think the article I posted has many good points.


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## wyominggrandma

And I don't believe you need to be yelling to get a point across...


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## Clayton Taffy

poundinghooves said:


> Wyoming Grandma- NO I HAVE NOT bred any of my animals EVER! The only colt I ever owned I DID NOT breed my mare to get. I bought her after he was born. All my dogs and cats are spayed and neutered. You said the following: "Why not go to your local rescue and spend some time and money there and save a few animals". I HAVE adopted/rescued many animals and will never buy a dog from a breeder (no offense, I understand some animals must be bred or there will be no more animals) and I will certainly NEVER EVER buy from a pet store as the puppys are almost always from puppy mills. And of course, I do not think gas chambers are humane and I wish they were not used to put animals down. I am not a member of PETA or anything like that. I am an animal rights activist on a much smaller level than what you speak of. Please stop judging me. You don't even know me so you have no right to say some of the things you have said (like the statement about going to my local rescue and adopting). When I first put my opinion on this thread I knew I was going to be chewed out for it. But it's my opinion and I'm not changing. I have stated I understand some aspects of slaughter and that I am not completely against it. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I think horses should not be allowed to cross the border to be slaughtered. And I also think the article I posted has many good points.


 
I see no yelling here just some emphasais on a few words


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## FlyGap

Not that this happened at every lot and for every good horse that went through the pens...
Back in the day, I remember having a dinner party at my parents house and one man attending had a brother who owned a processing facility. They were discussing my horses that they saw when they drove in and were talking about my mare (whom I purchased at a sale barn for $5 more than the meat man was willing to pay). They started talking about all the horses that came in and how they scoured the animals looking for good ones that slipped through the cracks and ended up in the pens. Good horses were pulled and often they had a waiting list from trainers and people looking for a particular type of horse to take home. The price was higher but less than buying from the original seller, they made more money off a good one rather than taking the time rendering them and they saved the horse. The brother even rode himself and had a couple from his lot. So if that makes you feel any better... 

Back before the ban I went to dozens of sales and there were few that I'd take home. And the ones that looked fit, were not total bronks, and were decent looking went to good homes. GOOD horses STILL bring decent money, most that head to the sale go for CHEAP. Most of them would either cost a fortune getting healthy or training, or have been deemed unsound for some reason. Most people aren't willing to take the risk. They go out and find the perfect poneh or prospect instead of buying a butt ugly, unhealthy, near feral, or even dangerous horse. There is a man I know who is still going to the sales and pulling the decent horses out, he's a trader and makes his living this way. It is far more humane to give the ones heading to mexico a shorter trip and saferish demise. And RAISING the prices and creating more income in the US. PERIOD END OF STORY.


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## wyominggrandma

capital letters is yelling. Or at least that is what I have been told. I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong.


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## Druydess

poundinghooves said:


> Speed Racer- I am afraid I simply must disagree with you. Animals do indeed have rights. The right to be fed, watered, sheltered and treated humanely. Those are animal *rights*. I assure you I am not a crazy, insane member of PETA. I do believe that humans are more important than animals and that animals are not humans. However, I have known some low-life humans so idiotic, scummy and down right worthless to society that I actually do believe my dog has more of a purpose to live than they do. I belive that animals were put on Earth for our use. I do believe in eating animals, wearing leather and riding horses. BUT I believe when an animal is killed it should be for a good reason and it should be done HUMANELY. I still say I am an animal rights activist. Just on a different level than what you're thinking of it as.
> 
> Faye- I stated that I know there is no way rescues can take ALL the animals. I highly doubt an animal sold at auction is actually going to save someone's house. It may for that month's mortgage but when the next month roles around and you don't have the money and don't have another horse to sell than your horse is slaughtered AND you don't have a house, it just happened a moth later. And for your info I flat-out refuse to use a cosmetic tested on animals! Medicine is different because it helps people. Cosmetics don't (they just make girls look "prettier") and if a cosmetic has been tested on animals than I won't buy it. The testing that goes on in the labs is horrendous. So you see as I said I am an animal rights activist just not a crazy one. I believe a lot of what you say about slaughter but did you know that even when horse slaughter was legal in the USA (before it was banned in 2007) thousands of horses were STILL shipped out of country to be slaughtered? So opening slaughter houses in America only saves a small percentage of the horses from being taken out of country and dying terrible deaths. Please read this article from the ASPCA (All I ask is that you read it than you can decide what you think of it):
> ASPCA | Horse Slaughter


Well said!! An intelligent, well thought-out post. Good point about horses being shipped out of the country when slaughter was legal; most people don't know that or ignore it. 
Agree completely!


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## xXSerendipityXx

Sometimes I wonder why people worry about how anything dies.. If theyre gonna be dead in a bit anyways, &Hopefully in a happier place..


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## PaintMare

Gremmy said:


> If you don't eat the horse meat, then how does its questionable safety affect you? Those who buy the meat have shown concern for its safety and as a result, research as well as regulations on testing and withdrawal times have followed suit. Again a grey issue - not all medications stay in the meat, and some require a certain amount of time to be completely gone (hence feedlots), and not all are proven to be dangerous to humans in the amounts presented in the meat. It's no different than worrying about mercury in a can of tuna or medications in any other red meat for that matter. If you don't like it then don't buy it, and if those who do buy horse meat feel that way, then they can stop buying it too.
> 
> How does awareness about nurse mare foals change one's position on slaughter? It's no different than any other practice that involves mass horse breeding. I won't say "yay" or "nay" to the practice because I don't know it well enough, but slaughter didn't come from it. Slaughter provides an outlet, slaughter profits from it, but should slaughter be punished for it? What would shutting down slaughter to stop nurse mare foals from going there do? The main driver to that industry is not producing foals for slaughter - you're not hitting the heart of the industry, you're just cutting off a limb, and an alternative outlet for the excess would be found - possibly an even more undesirable one.


 
I agree that stopping horse slaughter would in no way affect nurse mare foals or stop nurse mare foals. It just another serious issue that I thought I would bring up to see if anyone else on the forum has opinions on it as well.


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## poundinghooves

Wyoming Grandma- If I was yelling my entire post would be capitalized. Emphasizing a few words is like raising my voice on a few words not yelling through the entire post.
Druydess- Thank you so much, I was beginning to think I was on a forum where not one other person was going to agree with me on anything concerning horse slaughter and animal rights.
xXSerendipityXx- It matters how an animal dies because while the animal is dying it's going through extreme agony. They can't think to themselves "Oh well, I'm going to be in a happier place." All they know in the moment is that they are experiencing extreme pain and fear. I am an animal lover and even if I have never seen an animal before in my life I don't want it to suffer in anyway. Taking care of all animals is quite literally my calling in life.


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## Clayton Taffy

Wgrandma



FlyGap said:


> PERIOD END OF STORY.


Is the above yelling too then? Why not comment on that? 
Is it just yelling when you don't agree?


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## faye

WEll then pounding hooves you need to start seeing the big picture. Yes horses were already transported to mexico to die horrible deaths but a good number of them where humanely shot/captive bulleted in the US. Now thousands of horses would have been given a humane death are now going to go through a slow, terrifying and torturous death.

People who realy care for animals do not support banning slaughter, what they do support is transport on the hook not the hoof and tight controls over the slaughter.

One month can make all the difference for some people. For me one month was all it took to go from living on benefits (and thankfully my mother paying for my pony) to haveing 3 job offers on the table, having signed a contract, gotten a huge relocation package and started a job.
In that one month I went from being on the breadline and worrying about keeping a roof over my head to being fairly well off. I had to make the choice between eating and heating more then once (benefits paided weekly, electricity on a pay as you go meter, by the end of each week it was often a choice between eating and heating, normaly eating won out).

Even if it is only one month you will have to sell the horses at the end of that month anyway as you can't pay for them, the bailiffs will come in and the horses will go to auction anyway. Better selling the horses and hoping that something happens in that month. If you have never been on the breadline you cannot possibly understand that line of thought. Yes I did concider selling my horse in the period I was realy struggling but thankfully my mother agreed to support him and offered what help she could to keep a roof over my head (once I swallowed my pride and went back to her). Not everyone is in the position where thier parents can help them

Thankfully If I ever did need to sell my horse, he is young, extremly sucessfull in the show ring, beautifully put together, got very good lines, very flashy and generaly a nice horse to have around, I have a list of 10 people who would have him off me tommorow if he ever came up for sale, I have been offered an open cheque for him so I know his future is assured even if I can't keep him. Even if he did go to auction all I would have to do is let 2 or 3 people know which one he would be at and when and he would probably be a record sale for them, he certainly wouldnt go for meat!

You do come accross as a young child who has no experiance of the real world, of the hardship faced by some people and of how fast things can collapse or things can get better. 

In this current climate horses are a luxury, when it comes to a choice between the basics (food, heating and a roof over your head) and a luxury, people are always going to go for the basics. Would you be able to not eat for a month?


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## Derry girl

I wouldnt say that I dont agree with horse slaughter but I do think that some of the ways the horses are treated when their going to the slaughter house are very inhumane. Some are piled into cramp lorrys, no food,water.. its a terrible end for I think we could all agree beautiful animals that we adore. Alot live their lives to the full, giving us such pleasure and enjoyment and for the unfortunate few they end their lives in a misrable way. I once heard a story of a farmer close to where I live, he died and his children had no interest in farming and sold all the livestock to the slaughter house including a heavily pregnant mare! sicking. Why didnt the even try advertising her..free to good home, I would have took her! 
Yes, I agree there is alot of over population in many animals and there has to be some knid of control but have it done in a humane way that they can have a decent end to their life and not have to go through offal long journeys to then be lined up and shot in the head...No one would want an end like that..


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## faye

I'd rather be shot in the head then die of starvation.


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## wyominggrandma

I have better things to do than argue with you TaffyClayton. Obviously you are much more experienced in all things horses and grammer..


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## Derry girl

faye said:


> I'd rather be shot in the head then die of starvation.


 
I do see your point.. altough look at it this way, is that your horsey in the pic? Would you want him/her to have an end like some of the poor horses do that end up in long haul transport with little food and water and then for someone just to shoot her in the head.. I doubt it, I think youd want her to have fair, humane treatment. Am not condeming slaughter just saying that I do think the horses or any animal should have fair treatment.


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## Clayton Taffy

wyominggrandma said:


> I have better things to do than argue with you TaffyClayton. Obviously you are much more experienced in all things horses and grammer..


 I have no idea what you mean by this comment. Nowhere did I say or insinuate that I was more experienced than you or anyone else in anything, grammatical or otherwise.
I believe that both Flygap and Poundinghooves used capitol letters for dramatic effect or if you will poetic license. I believe I was asking a question about that. If one was yelling than both were yelling.


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## wyominggrandma

Yes, but poundinghooves was yelling at me.... So, I said something about it. Not my business to correct someone else's post, flygap was not talking to me. 
It was my post that poundinghooves replied, in capitals to, not yours or anyone elses. I replied to her, not you or anyone else, nor do I feel it is my business to step in and correct another persons post as far as grammer or yelling in caps. 
I'm done. Have a nice day


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## mftowner06

I am pro slaughter....


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## Cherie

Let me straighten a few things out.

First of all -- The horrid videos posted by the lying animal right terrorists are not showing how the horses are processed that currently go from here to Mexico. Those videos were taken of some small Mexican town's local slaughterhouse where it is sold to local peasants and residents. IT WAS NOT TAKEN AT THE PROCESSING PLANT THAT SHIP MEAT TO THE EU. Small locally owned slaughter houses process all of the horses, burros and cattle used locally with absolutely NO government standards. [A 'burrito' in Mexico is JUST THAT. It is why they tell you not to eat or drink anything in small towns.]

When the last plants were closed here in the US, the Belgians built a state-of-the-art plant in Mexico. It far surpasses the old facilities that were closed here. The EU countries will not buy meat that has not been processed by their own rules. These rules have tightened up greatly in the past few years because of the lies -- again spread by the animal right terrorists.

A group of Equine Veterinarians visited the new plant in Mexico a couple of years ago. My Vet showed me the article they wrote about it in one of the Veterinary journals. They said it was clean, animals were housed in good facilities and the slaughter process was quick and precise. The meat was properly handled and was frozen and packaged for shipment. They said that they could not argue about any of the process or facilities. 

So, the worst thing about horses going to Mexico is the trip. About 2 semi loads leave here every other Tuesday morning following the local Monday night horse sale. They also stop and rest horses at this sale barn that are in transit and have to have their mandatory rest stop. They are also shipped from here.

I go to most of the sales here and I would guess that fewer than 2 or 3 of 100+ horses going to the kill buyers have EVER gotten a shot or been dewormed. The horses that I have seen loaded out probably had far fewer medications in their lifetimes than a steer coming out of a feedlot. They certainly have not had any Ionefores in their feed and have not had the antibiotics or growth hormones that cattle receive. I would guess that they are far 'cleaner' than most grocery store meat. [This is why we grow our own and have a local processing plant process it.]

Another false statement propagated by the animal right terrorists is that people sell their horses to the slaughter buyers. Horses go to an auction because their owners OWN them and have the right to sell them. Every horse that goes through the ring has a chance to be bought by one of 2 or 3 kill buyers and about 50 to 100 other people that are there just like me. If they have no value to anyone else, the bottom bid will (by a kill buyer) be the bid that gets them. Last Monday sale, horses were up quite a bit. Kill buyers were paying $50 - $100 for thin and old horses and up to $500.00 for fat ones. Other horses sold for up to $1300.00 and I think one brought $1500.00. 

Of course, everyone bringing a horse to sell hopes that it brings more money and does not sell to the kill buyers. Every once in a while, I will see someone ask the barn owner if the last bid was from the killers and if he said it was, they PO the horse and take it back home. With the drought last year and no hay available, most people bringing horses to the sale are in a position where they cannot take a horse home. 

I think it is far better that they bring their horses to the sale than let them starve to death for lack of feed. Obviously, a lot of people are not doing that or we wouldnot see the huge number of starving horses that we are now seeing.


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## Gremmy

poundinghooves said:


> I believe a lot of what you say about slaughter but did you know that even when horse slaughter was legal in the USA (before it was banned in 2007) thousands of horses were STILL shipped out of country to be slaughtered? *So opening slaughter houses in America only saves a small percentage of the horses from being taken out of country and dying terrible deaths.* Please read this article from the ASPCA (All I ask is that you read it than you can decide what you think of it):
> ASPCA | Horse Slaughter


I missed this one the first time around. There's no denying that horses crossing the border (for various purposes) is nothing new. However I have to question your definition of a "small" percentage - I am assuming that you are suggesting that the number of American horses being moved to Canada and Mexico have not increased significantly since the shutdown of US slaughterhouses?

Unfortunately I have had no luck in finding reliable figures for horses being imported into Canada - I'm still looking, but since they are not strictly a meat animal I can see why it wouldn't be closely monitored like beef would be.

However I do have the figures on the number of horses slaughtered in Canadian establishments over the years and it does put things into perspective.

09tbl39_eng.htm

This is based off of 2009 so that it includes figures prior to 2006.

Total of horses slaughtered in Canada in *2005*: 48,880

Total of horses slaughtered in Canada in *2006*: 50,242

Percentage increase: 2.79%, or 1,362 horses

Total of horses slaughtered in Canada in *2007*: 79,613

Percentage increase: 58.46%, or _29,371_ horses

Total of horses slaughtered in Canada in *2008*: 113,064

Percentage increase: 42.02% or _33,451_ horses

_Percentage increase from 2005 to 2008: *131.31%, or 64,184 horses!*_

Is that a small number to you? It's also worth noting that prior to 2005, numbers of horses being slaughtered here were actually in decline. Now, what happened earlier in 2007 that can account for that steep jump in numbers? 2 of the 3 major US slaughterhouses closed. 2008? The last plant in Illinois closed in late 2007. Since the economic crisis in 2008 these numbers have been declining, but still remain at record high levels compared to before the "ban".

Of course, with no actual import records I cannot say beyond a shadow of a doubt that this huge increase is due to the US situation; HOWEVER, by process of elimination I believe it is safe conclusion - if any other Canadians on here can offer up an alternative explanation for that increase in numbers, I'd be interested in hearing it.


One more point to be made - we're only talking about horses crossing into *Canada*, Mexico hasn't even been factored in here. Still think it's just a small number?


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## poundinghooves

Wyoming Grandma- For what might as well be the 1,000,000th time since it doesn't look like I'm going to get this across to you: I was not yelling at you. You just assumed things about me (that I bred my animals and did not adopt/rescue from my local shelter) and I corrected you and now you realize that made you look bad so you want to jump on me for using a few capitalized words.
Gremmy- Nope, I wouldn't call it a small number but there were still thousands of horses being slaughtered out of the country.
Faye- You're confident that your horse wouldn't go for slaughter. No wonder you're not against slaughter. Well, I'm not so confident my precious little miniatures wouldn't go for slaughter. Not every horse is as good as yours. You don't have to worry that your horse would go for slaughter but some of us would have to. Besides, what makes you so sure your horse wouldn't? There has been champion, ex-race horses that have gone to slaughter. I'm talking horses that had made thousands racing. Still in perfectly good shape. Still go to slaughter. That's what makes me sick.


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## herdbound

I am anti-slaughter for several reasons. My main one being of the almost 10 million horses in the US about 130,000 are sent to slaughter each year of that only a very tiny fraction are considered the old,lame, sick & neglected animals that pro-slaughter people base this need upon. I feel like we are all smart enough to come up with a better way to deal with & manage populations of equines in the US because the numbers state we really don't have that large of an excess of them. I also feel that most people who are pro-slaughter should be labeled more along the lines of pro-equine management. I don't feel it is their wish to have these animals slaughtered inhumanely. I don't attack them and I would appreciate the same respect from them. It has been debated into the ground. I did ALOT of research on this and studied a few different official reports & what I came up with was that the problem of over population isn't as bad as it is hyped up to be. That APHIS has strict guidelines to what condition the horses must be in to be "processable" which would reject most of these so-called "sick,neglected & old" animals. Its a hard one but I really feel that as intelligent humans we could come with a better more humane way to deal with it...like offering free or low cost euthanasia & removal clinics by local vets who would volunteer services. just my two cents worth.


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## herdbound

And since these new guidelines are being passed in europe requiring much more health documentation on the horses being slaughtered you will see a decrease in the market for meat. It will work its way out somehow. All I know is I plan on having my horses put down humanely here on my property and buried because I feel like that is my responsibility as their owner...and I guess in the big scheme of things thats all I can do to effect the world. Make sure I am handling my own business.


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## poundinghooves

Totally agree with you, Herdbound!!


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## Gremmy

:-|

What the heck is your point PH? Yes horses were being transported out of the US and slaughtered in Canada or Mexico before the US houses shut down (was it thousands? hundreds? regardless, horses brought over the canadian border for slaughter are _included in the totals I provided_), but the point is that after the shut down, *TENS OF THOUSANDS MORE* were and are being shipped across the borders for slaughter! Horses that could be staying _in_ the US to at least be slaughtered without enduring the stress of extremely lengthy transport.

And _why_ are you worried that your minis could go to slaughter? Are they not trained? Not in good condition? Not well behaved? Do you not have a plan for them should something happen to you or your financial stability? If you had to sell are you not willing to do your due diligence to find the best possible home instead of taking them to an auction and hoping for the best?

Faye need not worry about her horse's odds of ending up in slaughter not just because he is a quality animal, but because she puts in the effort required to make him marketable. A trained, well behaved horse in good condition commands a higher value, and thus is more likely to stay off the meat wagon. On top of that, if you put the effort and research into finding a good quality home, the odds are greater that it will *actually* be a good quality home.

That being said, there is always the risk of things going bad. That is a risk you take when you sell a horse - if you don't want to take it, then you don't sell it. Eliminating slaughter has done nothing to eliminate that risk! There is still the chance (how small that chance is is up to you!) that the horse will be starved, neglected, abused...slaughter is only ONE possibility of the things that could happen.

My position has nothing to do with what kind of horses go to slaughter - all kinds go, young or old, healthy or sick, big or small, doesn't matter. _The people who owned them_ often are the consistent factor - even a high dollar show horse with a bright future can end up heading for slaughter if their owner didn't care enough to market them better. 

Slaughter is not an unfortunate necessity because of low value horses but because of low value _people_. It's easy to ban the outlet, but it's a bandaid and horses have been no better off - it's the horse owners themselves who have to change, and many just _won't_. You cannot restrict the heck out of horse ownership to avoid these types of owners unless you make extremely difficult for the responsible ones as well. Why should we have to pay for the actions of less responsible people? Heck, this problem hasn't even been solved with people and their own CHILDREN. Human rights go both ways - this is unfortunately one of them. Look at the breeding board on here - so many divided debates when someone's mare isn't considered breeding worthy. The health care board, the training board, even on HoFo we cannot agree on what responsible horsemanship is. That is a fact of life, and for the most part it leads to the benefits of diversity, but there is the occasion where someone's definition of responsible ownership is providing the bare minimum of care and training for their horses and then taking them to auction when the time comes to sell - you can't stop them from doing that without affecting everyone.

Herdbound, I'll do a dance the day I see low cost euth and removal clinics around here. The fact of the matter is it is only marginally more affordable for the vet to do it - removal is extremely expensive here now that the rendering plant is gone. It's easier for dogs and cats, but horses are just too **** big. You are right though, in that the expectations for quality meat is forever increasing, but it is a complex issue. Just like other meat animals, there are ways of testing, feedlots for the animal to wait out the needed withdrawl time, as well as research being done on which medications are safe and which aren't, in what amounts, etc. Even with restrictions, there will be new developments that will allow the horses to move through the system just like our drug riddled cattle.

With the current economic mess, Horse meat exports have declined - it isn't a needed commodity like wheat, and people tend to spend more on things they need rather than luxury items during difficult economic times. There are also producers in Europe who are trying to direct buyers towards domestic horsemeat rather than what is imported from North America. If demand for horse meat dies out, then horse slaughter will die out with it. However then what? Will all horses experience a life of comfort and happiness? I personally doubt it, more likely that those 130,000 unwanted horses will still be unwanted, and as I said, a different outlet would be found.


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## poundinghooves

I'm not worried about my minis going to slaughter (I would be if I was forced to get rid of them). They are well behaved, trained and in good condition. That's not my point. My point is that Faye is saying "I wouldn't have to worry about my horse going to slaughter". Well, I'm glad she has a top quality horse that she believes would never go to slaugher but not all of us have horses like that. And sometimes whether a good horse goes to slaughter or not has nothing to do with the owners so I don't know what you mean by "If their owner didn't care enough to market them better". What the heck is my point? Well, I'll tell you. I posted my opinion (which I have a right to as well as you have a right to yours) on this thread and made the mistake of using the words "Animal Rights Activist" and got attacked for it. I respect your opinion (obviously pro-slaughter) and I would appreciate it very much if everyone respected mine in turn (anti-slaughter) because it's not changing. I knew most people wouldn't agree with me on it but I never dreamed it would go on like this.


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## Gremmy

I'm not going to get into the "animal rights activist" discussion - I never went after you for that, although I do agree with the implied definition others posted about - I prefer to advocate animal welfare.

"Obviously pro-slaughter" does have a touch of attitude to it though - especially since right before that you go on about the activist label you feel was unfairly attached to you. It's somewhat the fundamental error in this entire thread, if you read the earlier pages you'll see the discussion - bottom line is, parallel to the debate on abortion, "pro-choice" would be more appropriate. "Pro-slaughter" suggests that one considers horse slaughter to not only be necessary but preferable, and would act out of interest of the industry rather than the welfare of the horses. That is not my position. I see it as an undesirable option for unwanted horses, but an option nonetheless. Should the industry no longer be feasible due to a decline in demand, I'd let it die, but would be prepared to see an alternative outlet for unwanted horses crop up. Who knows what, since slaughter has never *not* been an option in North America.

I'm not going to nitpick Faye's statement either, my point was based off of your post. If you are worried about your minis' fate should you be forced to get rid of them, that is something you *need* to look into now, not if/when the situation arises. Due diligence.



> And sometimes whether a good horse goes to slaughter or not has nothing to do with the owners


Please explain. Specific examples would be helpful?

I am sorry that you feel attacked - that isn't my intent at all. This is a subject that I am passionate about and am always actively learning about - I enjoy sharing what I know, getting clarification and try to maintain an open mind - if a statement is made that I am not sure about, I research it. Sometimes I find that the statement was sound and I have to reaffirm my position; that's great, that's called learning. What disappoints me is that when I challenge "facts" presented by those opposed to slaughter, I am either met with silence or an emotional outburst! My position is not set in stone, but so far nobody has either bothered or been able to move it.

What happens with threads like this is constructive debate - I enjoy it, some don't - many misinterpret it as an aggressive argument and get emotional and/or offended (hence the many "omg let this die already" posts). If debates were such a bad thing, then why do schools have entire teams dedicated to it? If you happen to be in high school and they offer a debate team, I would highly recommend it. It teaches you extremely valuable skills that are significantly lacking in the general population - critical thinking, the ability to research information effectively to form an argument, the ability to view things objectively without being swayed by emotions, an indispensable ability to communicate clearly and effectively with others, and the ability to read material and be able to form your own educated opinion (not just the one the writer wants you to have) - just to name a few.

It's apparent to me that you want validation on your position and are not interested in having your remarks challenged. With that I'll throw up my hands, and watch from the stands for a while and let someone else have a go. Good luck to you!


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## herdbound

Gremmy without going into a lengthy debate with you let me first say I really do feel that the pro and anti-slaughter people want the same thing. We want the overpopulation to cease. That has to start with the over breeding of horses. There are two main "problems" that need to have more accountability and that is the Racing Industry with its constant need more 2 and 3 year old horses and the quarter horse industries need for fresh blood. Of the almost 10 million horses in the US 1/3 are quarter horses...I find that amazing! When people refer to slaughter as a place for "undesireable, unmanageable, or unhealthy animals" that is false. MOST of the horses sent to slaughter are in excellent physical health and are mentally intact. The TB race horses are amongst many of them...this is a meat market and they want MEAT not bones. Just like skinny cows would not make a nice butchering prospect neither do skinny horses. As far as processing plants in America being more humane and clean I would also disagree on that fact. 

In 2007 two horse slaughter plants inhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas Texas were ordered closed following protracted battles with their local municipalities, who voiced objections over the slaughter houses' financial drain on the municipalities without providing tax revenue, ditches of blood, dismembered foals, and reek of offal and waste in residential neighborhoods. Later that year, an abattoir in Illinios, reported to be the last horse meat abattoir in the U.S., was also closed following local community action.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter#cite_note-huffington-30 Prior to 2007, three major equine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlaughterhouseSlaughterhouses operated in the United States: Dallas Crown, Inc. in Kaufman, Texas; Beltex Corporation in Fort Worth, Texas; and Cavel International, Inc. in Dekalb, Illinois, all with Belgian ownership, although Multimeat NW has also been listed as French and Dutch owned. Velda NV owns Cavel, Multimeat NV owns Beltex and Chevideco owns Dallas Crown.

We are all fighting over if slaughter is right or wrong and the focus is being taken away from the real issues. Why are there so many horses? What industries are responsible for having the most "excess" and is it truly necessary? The main supplier to the slaughter pipeline is NOT your backyard breeder down on his luck. It is these HUGE industries who breed way to many foals to supply some need for greed. There are almost 1 million racehorses over HALF of them are breeding stock...that is rediculous and extremely wasteful. The other problem that gets mixed into this issue is the accountability of people who neglect horses to the point of starvation THEN take the poor thing down to the auction and try to make money off of it rather than have their butts prosecuted for being neglectful. This is a very SMALL fraction of the horses sent to slaughter. In fact if they are that poor they are rejected for transport. As long as the pipeline is open to soak up the excess of the larger industries they will continue to overbreed and be unaccountable for the suffering that they intentionally cause. No sane human being would ever want any animal to endure undue suffering. So I really think we are all fighting for the same things...but just need to come up with a way to put this anti/pro crap behind us and look at the real issues at hand and find real solutions so this suffering can stop.

My honest opinion on the matter is that if we HAVE to have a racing industry that NEEDS so many new babies hey need to figure out a way to cut a TB's life down to about 7 years geneticly because thats about how long they are valued...IF they are lucky. Instead of addressing this symptom (slaughter) we need to address the cause (irresponsible horsebreeding & ownership). If we can cure the problem the slaughter could stop.


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## herdbound

I also wanted to point out. I take very good care of my horses but I am always afraid that in the middle of the night someone who wants to make a quick buck will come lead my mares on a trailer and take them to "Sugar Creek" and make a few hundred bucks off of them at sale for slaughter. I mean it isn't hard to open a gate and lead my girls on a trailer and poof my beloved girl is up on the auction block on Friday night.


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## sporthorsegirl

I only skimmed a few earlier posts, but here is my honest opinion. 

I am neither for or against slaughter. I don't know if any of you subscribe to Horse Illustrated, but there was an article that gave pros and cons from both sides. I agreed more with the woman who was against slaughter. But I also completely understand the need for it. There are horses who are dying slowly and it would be more humane to end their lives. I know of a local (3-4 hours) "rescue" facility that takes in unwanted/abandoned horses. It is a complete nightmare. There are 300+ horses in one pasture full of metal and junk, not getting fed and are literally skin and bones. One of my friends rescued a filly from this facility after the owner didn't vaccinate her for tetanus (she had huge cuts and scrapes on her legs from all the metal). She wanted to take some other horses home but she simply didn't have room. She moved the filly out to her place, only to find out it was too late. She died of tetanus. Why this hell hole hasn't been shut down I will never know. 

The scary part is I know and have ridden horses that have gone to this place simply because the owners did not want them anymore. What a horrible death. And to think, they could have been something. 

In this situation or any situation where horses would be better off dead, instead of shipping them to a slaughter house in a small trailer, possibly dying on the way, and having a tortuous death, I believe euthanization is the answer. If there was truly a way to "humanely slaughter" horses, then I might be okay with that. But shooting a horse with a nail/bolt gun is NOT humane. It simply stuns them and causes pain. There are other ways


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## Gremmy

Gonna try to keep this short.

Two things:

First, herdbound, I agree with you to a point. The question is, how do you stop the breeding without restricting the rights of responsible owners/breeders? Hang out on some breeding boards for a few weeks and then think about it - I've done so, and perhaps I've gotten jaded when it comes to convincing others when they should and shouldn't breed.

Second, I'm actually lacking in this area - how does a captive bolt gun (not nail gun - where the heck are they using that for slaughter?) differ from a regular firearm? The extent of my understanding is that it is as its name suggests, a bolt that remains with the gun as opposed to a bullet that leaves it (which I would imagine could be a safety issue inside a slaughterhouse?) If the issue is simply that the shot in the head is inhumane, I disagree. Lots of information about that on here.

"humane euthanasia" - in this case the lethal injection, results in a corpse that is effectively toxic. Anything that eats it will die. If buried, the barbituates get in the soil - huge environmental problem, especially near a water source. I've read reports of it staying in the soil for 30+ years.

By using this method on otherwise slaughterbound horses, wouldn't we be creating as big of an environmental problem as the slaughterhouses which were closed? The houses can be adjusted to be more environmentally friendly (nevermind the fact that similar complaints have been directed towards the rest of the meat processing industry - there's no reason why horse processing cannot run at the same standard, at which point it need not be singled out without addressing the entire meat industry.), but that humane injection isn't getting any less toxic.


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## farley

I am Pro. An I dont care if you are Anti its a choice and an opinion. However if you do your research as I have you will now there are a hundred more pros then cons. The only Con Anti has is abuse, but with the right regulations abuse is out. And by keeping it illegal you are putting horses in more danger then by just having it legal. 

Horse meat provides food to countries, horse meat is healthier then beef, it is better food alternative for large cats in captivity, it is apart of a 14 billion dollar dog food industry(we love our pets so we should stop feeding them high sodium crap),and it helps reduce the 100,000 unwanted domesticated horses in the US, plus it would help reduce the number of feral horses which is now in the 80,000 an charging the US a feed bill in the billions. Why should we waste good healthy meat, and throw it away or bury it in the ground, or let is starve on our pasture lands when it could be used for something better.


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## sporthorsegirl

I respectfully disagree with both of you. I am not a person who believe in global warming/environmental damage or anything of that sort. There ARE ways to dispose of euthanized corpses, such as cremation. 

Secondly (and honestly), how anyone could even think of eating a horse disgusts me. We are not in any kind of a meat shortage. We already have beef, chicken, lamb, veal, etc. Horses are not your typical livestock animal and should not be treated as such. They helped us win battles in wars and were are only form of transportation at one point in history. They don't deserve to be eaten, nor do they need to be.


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## Gremmy

What living thing does truly deserve to be?


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## faye

poundinghooves said:


> I'm not worried about my minis going to slaughter (I would be if I was forced to get rid of them). They are well behaved, trained and in good condition. That's not my point. My point is that Faye is saying "I wouldn't have to worry about my horse going to slaughter". Well, I'm glad she has a top quality horse that she believes would never go to slaugher but not all of us have horses like that. And sometimes whether a good horse goes to slaughter or not has nothing to do with the owners so I don't know what you mean by "If their owner didn't care enough to market them better". What the heck is my point? .


Not only is my lad highly marketable as a riding horse and thus worth thousands more than the meat man will pay, i have also signed the section of his passport that says that he has been given drugs that make him unsuitable for human consumption (bute in his case and serious antibiotics). This makes him totaly worthless to the meat man.

Race horses go to meat because it takes a hell of a lot of work to turn them into something ridable, they take a heck of a lot of work to keep weight on, they are not the hardiest of creatures either. A gelding is worthless to the racing industry when it can no longer race hence they go for meat because no one is willing to invest the time taken to retrain the horse for a horse that is questionably sound.

Even if Reeco did end up in a meat auction I can garentee that someone will buy him for a riding horse. I've been to Beeston horse auction many many times, the meat man is always there but anything ridable or of decent quality generaly goes to either private buyers or the dealers that are there!

Captive bolt and the bullet are both very humane ways to euthanise a horse. I have had several horses PTS this way and would always have any horse of mine


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## herdbound

I know that they allow for a large margin of botches in the putting down of the animals for slaughter. I also know that no system is perfect but it just really bothers me to know they "botch" the death alot. I am not a fanatic...I have done ALOT of research on this subject. I have just always looked at theargument of it is a way to eliminate skinny, neglected horses as a complete and utter false statement. I mean come on if a horse or horses are that poor because they have been neglected the last and most inhumane thing would be to drag them off to sale and subject them to that sort of stress and have them crammed into those trailers to spend days being trampled and squashed by healthier horses. Never mind the fact that they are seldom given the water and food they are supossed to receive. Then if the poor thing is trampled when it gets to slaughter it will be yanked out by chains and culled in a very inhumane way. I just don't like the suffering aspect of slaughter. IF it were regulated and was done correctly I would feel better about it. But even under the direct supervision of a vet, it is allowably botched...over and over again. I feel like if someone is in that much need for feed for their horses thier should be as much effort put into helping the neglected horses of america as the neglected dogs and cats. Horses built this country, they rushed off into battle fearlessly, the helped us civilize this great country and we treat them WORSE than we do dogs and cats. I love dogs and cats but they haven't done anything spectacular for us yet have many more protective agencies working to ensure their proper care. The MAJORITY of horse owners ARE responsible. We need stronger and stricter control over this minority of people who exploit & abuse horses. The laws protect them so loosely that a horse has to be almost dead in order to receive aid from the law. Why not make it HARDER on the abusers/neglecters to abuse & neglect. This would NOT effect most of us who do things the right way. and I would support laws that could help get animals out before they are so far gone euthanasia is the humane option.


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## herdbound

"The kill boxes and stunning methods, too, ignore horses’ slimmer bodies and longer heads as well as their instinct to flight. Cows aren’t built for speed. Herd one into a kill box and they don’t have room to move. They’ll basically stand still. But kill boxes built for cows’ wider bodies leave horses room to thrash around, and, because they’re wearing shoes and the floors are slick with blood, there’s plenty of slipping and falling, making it very difficult for workers to get a clean shot. This is documented in nearly every hidden video on horse slaughter now accessible online—and there are many.


Complicating matters, horse brains are located further back in their skulls, making them harder to knock unconscious even when a clean shot is delivered. Many regain consciousness within 30 seconds. As a result, too many end up getting shot repeatedly in the head and many are still conscious when hoisted by one leg, bled out and butchered. This is only how they do it in Canada, by the way. In Mexico, the horses are repeatedly stabbed in the spine with puntilla knives to disable them, then butchered fully awake.


They do this to all the horses—even foals, which is illegal. Compared to the slaughter of cattle, horse slaughter is relatively unregulated, and even the attendant laws to protect humans are routinely ignored. I’m talking specifically about those banning the use of carcinogenic drugs in livestock used for slaughter, such as Phenylbutazone (or “bute”), a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug that racehorses are given as a matter of course and that I’ll talk about in a later post.


The point is, that racehorses—and horses in general—may be beloved among Americans, they may be celebrated by the media, but they suffer worse abuse than the routine brutality that cows endure at slaughter.


*Winner’s Circle, Loser’s Fate*
The dead Thoroughbreds should haunt every racing enthusiast and humanitarian, not just because of how they’re transported and slaughtered. How about the vast sums they make for owners who maintain a profitable relationship with kill buyers, ensuring the betrayal of 10,000 Thoroughbreds every year?


Consider No Day Off, a filly taken from Mountaineer racetrack in West Virginia to Sugarcreek and on to Richelieu Meats in Canada. HBO captured her story on 



: the weekly pickups arranged at the race track by her owner/trainer, Ricardo Hernandez, to clear the slow horses out of the barn; her arrival at Sugarcreek where she was purchased by a kill buyer; and her arrival at the slaughterhouse.


The same fate befell Deputy Broad this past summer. Less than 48 hours after coming in last in a July 11 race at Mountaineer, his trainer, Danny Bird, had an Ohio kill buyer pick up the colt for transport to Richelieu. He arrived on July 19 and was confirmed slaughtered, according to online reports. Bird didn’t even give Deputy Broad the chance to be adopted by a rescue. Stable to table in less than seven days.


Mountaineer has rules against trainers doing this, but doesn’t enforce them—same as at other racetracks. Why? The circle of money, flowing from the betting public to the race tracks to the owners. To them, every racehorse is an investment, and this particular kind easily loses value with age, injury and races lost to other horses.


Don’t kid yourselves that the owners treat their horses the way other people treat their dogs. Some do, but for most, it’s just another part of their portfolio. They may love the sport passionately, but they’re very upfront about their desire to compete, win and make money. And, as one billionaire noted recently, racing is a tough business to make money in.


Even so, some of the biggest money earners get slaughtered, right alongside the losers. Kentucky Derby winner and Horse of the Year Ferdinand was slaughtered in 2002, in Japan. His lifetime earnings of $3.7 million made him, at one time, the fifth-leading money earner of the Thoroughbred world, with a stud fee set at $30,000.00 upon his retirement from racing. But he stopped producing foals and was sent to slaughter by his owners at age nineteen.


With lifetime earnings of $1.6 million, Exceller was, and still is, the only horse to have defeated two Triple Crown winners, Affirmed and Seattle Slew. But he was ordered slaughtered in 1997 by his owner, Göte Östlund. Two years after his death, Exceller was elected to the National Museum of Racing and Hall of Fame in Saratoga Springs, NY. "


That is an excerpt from an article in Forbes.com 


"_In July 1991, they were unloading one of the double-decker trucks. A horse got his leg caught in the side of the truck so the driver pulled the rig up and the horse’s leg popped off. The horse was still living, and it was shaking. [Another employee] popped it on the head and we hung it up and split it open. . . . Sometimes we would kill near 390, 370 a day. Each double-decker might have up to 100 on it. We would pull off the dead ones with chains. Ones that were down on the truck, we would drag them off with chains and maybe put them in a pen or we might drag them with an automatic chain to the knockbox. Sometimes we would use an electric shocker to make them stand. To get them to the knockbox, you have to shock them . . . *sometimes run them up the [anus] with the shocker*. . . . When we killed a pregnant mare, we would take the guts out and I would take the bag out and open it and cut the cord and put it in the trash and sometimes the baby would still be living, and its heart would be beating, but we would put it in the trashcan."_


That is an excerpt from a fantastic article called "Dark Horse"




I am anti-suffering_. PERIOD.
_


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## fromthismoment

I voted anti. However, I would support a Euthanize program where no one makes money. Currently in Canada horses can be slaughtered and its a business where people profit. I don't want to see horse byproduct in anything.


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## wyominggrandma

Have you ever seen a botched "by needle euthanasia" done by a vet? Do your research on that also please before stating that a bullet or bolt to the head is inhumane and the only humane way is by injection.
I have seen botched euthanasia's done by vets. I have worked alongside/with vets for over 40 years and believe me, it does happen, but it is not talked about. Horses having a reaction before all the meds are in, rearing, falling over and getting up, convulsions. I have seen horses in pain because a needle comes out of the vein and goes under the skin. I have seen horses drop, still alive in the holes that they are to be buried in and die slowly. I have also seen owners botch a head shot, and vets botch a head shot.
I have also seen very very fast euthanasia's done by injection, very peaceful and painless. I have seen bullets bring very fast painless death also.
Nothing, shots given by the vets or bullets/captive bolts are 100% foolproof. Nobody can guarantee that to anyone, nobody can state that bad never happens to an animals whether they are slaughter bound or stay in their own field. However, the typical advice to euthanize horses instead of sending them off to a slaughter house made by anti slaughter folks is not to practica in this day and age. Sure, there are some that have acres and acres of personal property and can bury their horses safely away from water sources.. There are some that can afford to hire a backhoe(unless they own one) and dig that hole and bury horses.(here in Wyoming its around 300. to hire a backhoe to dig a hole, and I imagine that is cheap compared to some areas) But what about the thousands of horse owners who have no personal property? Who board at stables who have no access to land to bury their horse? Heck, in many states, you can't even bury your dog in your yard or property, much less a horse.
So, to the anti slaughter folks, what are these people supposed to do with the horses before they die? Take them out to the "vast" deserts and such and turn them loose? They do that around here, just turn them loose to fend for themselves and of course they die because they can't live like wild horses do, they just stand around and die. They don't know how to go for miles to find water, they are used to water bring brought to them. Predators eat the majority of them. Let them go to a "rescue" and die in a fence because the "rescue" don't feed them or take care of them, but consider themselves a rescue. The true rescues are full to the top with horses and I imagine they don't get much financial help anymore from donations. So, please tell me, oh anti slaughter people, what is the answer? Do you have the land and funds to take all these horses that people are giving up because they can't feed themselves and care for them? Horses that are dying a slow death because the owner can't afford major vet bills to help them survive? 
What is your answer to my questions? I am not being nasty, I am curious how you plan to avoid horse slaughter for the thousands of horses that need someplace to go when no longer able to be used, or sick or dying. Stopping breeding would be great, but hey that is not going to happen. People will always produce horses if they think somebody will buy them. Just like people will keep producing dogs because a person thinks they can make money from their dogs and sell them. Check the papers, how many litters and litters and litters of Labs are advertised? Now, go check the rescues and see how many Labs are turned over to them.......
As long as there are mares and stallions, as long as folks will think they can make a buck, they will keep producing cute little foals and people will buy them. Then when it comes to affording that cute little foal they just bought, training it, feeding it, etc and the first time it bucks them off, they no longer want it. So, they give it to the next person or a rescue or send it to auction. Will you go to every auction and buy these horse to prevent them from going to slaughter? I don't imagine you will, nor is it feasable to think anyone can.
So, until the anti slaughter folks can figure out a way to keep the horse population down, to figure out a way to stop senseless horse breeding because someone wants a "baby just like the mare", until the phrase" I will never sell my baby foal" as a reason to breed, then the person has a family tragedy, loses their job and house and therefore has to give up the foal" that they said they will never sell"until you can figure out a way to stop all of that nonsense, where do you want the abandoned, unwanted and truly dangerous horses to go? I can arrange to drop off about 100 horses left to die here in Wyoming at your home, the guy will get a slap on the hand for four counts of cruelty, and will get more horses to start the whole vicious circle over again. 
Everything is not perfect and some things are not nice, but the world is not nice anymore. Horses , like most pets to some are disposable until the next one comes along. 
Let me know where to drop of this load of horses, I bet I can find plenty more for you to take care of since you don't want them to go to slaughter.


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## wyominggrandma

I am curious Herdbound... The book you posted, Dark Horse , the video you posted, the "hidden video" you mentioned, the wording of the paragraphs you show. It all sounds like PETA and HSUS stuff...

You have shown all the bad articles. You have talked about being "anti suffering".... In all your experience with horses and training and such, have you never had a horse hurt? Had a horse colic? Had a horse injured while trailering? Had a horse hurt in the stall or pasture? If so, then the exact things you are talking about has been done by you, causing "suffering". If you can say you have never ever had a horse have one bit of pain or injury suffered by you, then you must be perfect. If not, then you have also caused a horse to suffer.


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## herdbound

Nope I am not a member of PETA or the HSUS . Just a woman who loves horses and understands what really is happening to them and why it is happening. Those are excerpts from some of my favorite articles, the links are there so you can read the whole thing.


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## kevinshorses

herdbound said:


> Nope I am not a member of PETA or the HSUS . Just a woman who loves horses and understands what really is happening to them and why it is happening. Those are excerpts from some of my favorite articles, the links are there so you can read the whole thing.


You THINK you understand what's happening. How much research have you done personally. Copying and pasteing excerpts from articles isn't really research.


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## herdbound

And if you have a few minutes watch the video...it shows you the truth. I can not understand how anyone could support that treatment of animals - be it a dog, cat, horse, bird. It is NOT as simple as it is portrayed...this is an industry about MONEY. Not humanely eliminating excess neglected animals. It is MUCH bigger & darker than that.


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## herdbound

Oh have taken the time to read a lot of official reports and studied this for about the last two years of my life. As well as being involved in the local rescue of equines. I based my stance on facts I have come to understand about the economics of this industry, who is feeding it, and who is paying the price for it. Like I said...I am anti-suffering not slaughtering IF slaughtering is necessary it should be done humanely. BUT I feel like if we put our heads together and pulled them out of our arses for a few minutes we could come up with a better plan to maintain "healthy" equine numbers here in the US without the need for this dumping ground. Starting with the Racing Industry.


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## herdbound

I feel like if you are going to make an opinion on this matter there are two studies you should read and understand before you come to a conclusion. 

1. United States Governments Accountabilities Offices Report To Congressional Committees "HORSE WELFARE Action Needed to Address Unintended Consequences from Cessation of Domestic Slaughter" conducted in June 2011 and it covers most of the facts and figures concerning the effects of horse slaughter on the industry as a whole. 

2. The American Horse Councils Economic Report of 2005 ( this report will cost you about 60.00 to get BUT it is well worth it) It details the horse population, the industries, the breeds, and the economics pumping through the veins of each...

those are a good starting place if you want to dig into the truth behind the matter at hand.


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## wyominggrandma

You didn't answer my question, have you never hurt or caused suffering to any animal??? 
Also, when do you want this load of horses? Maybe you and the others can "put your heads together" and figure out how to feed and care for them.
I am also curious, what do you consider "healthy" horse management? Do you make the rules about who can breed and who can't? Who can own horses and who can't? I am not getting into an argument about horse racing, rodeos, shows, and anything else horse "use" but how do you and your groups of antislaughter intend to enforce horse management? The government controls enough of our lives, do you want them to control your animals also? So, how about if all the people who has horses and breeds them, and I mean all people, just quit breeding for , um lets say 10 years. In 10 years, all the horses that are on the ground now will be at least 10 years old and ridable. Or 10 years older and ready to die. Or 10 years older and a perfect kids horse. So, now what?


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## herdbound

Heres a simple rule for healthy horse management. If you can't afford to euthanize your horse humanely at home and dispose of it's remains you have no business bringing more into the world by breeding. Period.


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## herdbound

The laws in the United States do NOT protect horses very strictly at all. It is too loose. I wouldn't fear stricter legislation over the care of equines because I take care of mine. I have no problem with them saying I have to keep my horses at a certain healthy weight...because I do. Right now the law protects neglectful ownership and the fines are not very high for breaking what little laws we do have. It all needs to be overhauled.


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## wyominggrandma

Herdbound, I have probably been involved in horses longer than you have been alive.(at least I assume so since your avatar shows someone young)I have worked for vets for 40 years. I have been and seen alot of good and bad about horses, and yes, I have read and read many many "studies" and "papers" and "articles" about horses, management, slaughter, breeding, etc. I have also found, in my over half a century of living, that those papers and such are prepared by the people who want to believe in a cause and want to pursue it because it pertains to their thoughts and agendas. Its all political paperwork, one side against the other. Just because a study shows how awful things are or how the authors have a way to make things rosy or perfect, doesn't mean a hill of beans. 
I just saw the results of agendas and rights politics for a father go horribly wrong. He figured out a way to show what a good dad he was, he rented a fake home to make it look good to the child welfare authorities, he pretended to be a good father, the authorities followed protocal and gave him supervised visitation with his children and proceeded to force the supervisor out the door, chop his kids with a hatchet then set them and himself on fire and murdered two innocent children and killed himself. Studies showed he should spend time with his children(even though he was suspected of killing his wife two years ago), since his rights were being violated, studies showed how unfair to not let him see his kids, even his own lawyer did work free for this poor father. STudies followed for years by child care authorites were certainly horribly wrong in this case.
Studies are only as good or honest as the person who write them are. Doesn't mean a thing on paper. 
Again, where do you want all these horses to go that have nowhere to go right now???


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## herdbound

The studies I provided aren't biased. They state data collected about horse numbers and economics. If they were considered biased I would say that the report on cessation of slaughter in the US would be considered "pro-slaughter". Here is what everyone doesn't grasp. There are 10 million horses in the US. The number going to slaughter last year is roughly around 130,000. MOST of that 130,000 were healthy, sane animals who were just no longer running fast enough...thats a poor excuse for the animals death. I mean I am sure you love your horses wyoming imagine walking outside and saying oh hey Mr. Ed your mane isn't growing fast enough you need to die. Or Mr. Ed you just don't run like you did when you were 3 now that you are 4 you have to die...sorry. I mean that is just rediculous and a poor excuse for barn management. They need to stop breeding so many dang horses to supply this need for speed. As for the horses that do go to auction MANY RESCUES are at the auction houses to absorb them and rehab them BUT they get outbid by the kill buyers most often. They do have some place to go...and to live.


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## wyominggrandma

Okay, then please tell me again, *who is going to implement this wonderful plan of your to limit horse breeding? *
I love my horses, I love my animals and I take care of them. However, nobody should have the right to tell me what I can do with them as long as they are taken care of properly. I have to make, as everyone else has to make, a decision not to breed. The government should not have that right, they have taken to many of our rights away already. 
Whether you like it or not, humans like money. Humans like to make money. Humans will continue to make money with horses or any animals. That will never stop in my lifetime and I imagine not in alot of folks lifetimes, so to deal with the excess of horses and all animals because of some wanting to make money and some wanting to live with horses and work with horses, there needs to be a satisfactory way to be able to dispose of horses... You think you have a great way to fix that up, then by all means go for it. But, you have to realize that alot of us deal more in reality and understand that there is no "fix" to this problem except to have a way to send a horse to slaughter in the US so they don't have to go for hours and hours to Mexico or Canada.
I have still noticed that you didn't answer my question about suffering? What, you can't say you have never caused a horse to suffer in some way?


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## goneriding

So much passion from both sides....what is the answer? There should be a choice not just one way. All slaughter of any animal should be done proficiently with minimal distress. I do not care for horse slaughter because I am more emotionally attached to the species. Why is it so difficult for some humans to not respect other species? There was a neighbor a few years back who had two horses starving in his backyard. He came home from work everyday seeing them starving and did nothing. He was reported(too late.) He said he could not afford to feed them. Then why didn't he reach out to other people and ask for help in donating feed until the horses could be rehomed? One ended up dead and the other had to be put down. He made no effort. I would have helped along with others in the area. Humans can be incredibly selfish in so many ways. How does one put a plate of food in front of them knowing their animals are starving right outside their window. The lack of compassion baffles me. I believe in having options. There isn't necessarily one right way. Whatever the option one chooses, it should be done with respect towards the animal.


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## herdbound

And I am 35 years old for the record...I have been around horses all of my life.


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## Speed Racer

I don't breed (have geldings), but are you trying to say that a breeder should be responsible forever for every horse they've bred? I certainly hope not, because that's just ludicrous. Once it's sold on, it's not their responsibility any longer.

Oh, and to do some backtracking, you keep insisting that those not against equine slaughter keep saying only the old, skinny ones go to slaughter. Absolutely, completely_ not_ true. For a KB to make money on slaughter bound horses, they need to be healthy and in good weight. Just like ANY meat animal.

You keep claiming you've done your proper research, but you've already gotten some very important, fundamental points wrong. 

I daresay everyone, pro as well as anti, is against needless suffering, but to label a whole industry as 'cruel' merely because you don't like the _species_ of livestock going to slaughter is ridiculous.

Are there problems? _Of course_. There are problems in any industry, but especially one that's based around live animals. 

If you can come up with a free-standing solution that doesn't entail some mythical, 'everyone just needs to learn to be more_ responsible_' then please let me know what it is. You predicate EVERYTHING on that one point, and completely disregard human nature and the ongoing economic crisis.

You also seem to not be taking into consideration that many people who have been previously good owners, simply CAN'T AFFORD to keep their horses. So, if they can't afford to feed them, how on earth are they supposed to pay a vet to euth and someone else to haul off the carcass? Let their children go hungry? Lose the house and live in their car? 

Good, reputable rescues are already full and can't take any more. In fact, rescues are dropping like flies right now because donations are way down since people can't afford to give them money. For any rescue that goes under, that's just more horses flooding an already over-saturated market. 

Yet, in the midst of all this economic turmoil and crisis, the antis think someone, somewhere is going to find a solution and implement it? Not them of course, 'cause they just want it STOPPED.


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## herdbound

The rescues are repeatedly outbid by kill buyers. There are places for these animals to go...I have said everything I can say. I am anti-suffering of ANY animal...I believe we could provide a more humane death for the horses than what is aloted now. We all want the same things...we just have to get to a place where we can stop fighting and start resolving the suffering aspect of it. Thats all I am saying...now I need to go work with my own horses. Good day!


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## wyominggrandma

Who are you to say what we don't grasp. I am sure we grasp that there are millions of horses and that thousands go to slaughter every year. A person would be stupid not to "grasp" that situation. And you have stated that to stop breeding would end all this. You have stated that a majority of horses in slaughter are healthy animals. Yea, we get that. So, I ask *again,*are you willing to take loads of horses and care for them? Are you willing to pay out thousands of dollars to rescues to take care of the horses that are saved from slaughter? 
So, poor Mr Ed doesn't grow his mane long enough and gets sent to slaughter. I think your "funny" reality is cute, but the same goes, what someone does with their own horse is their business, if they want to send Mr Ed to slaughter because he doesn't run fast enough, that is their choice to deal with, not yours. 
Until all the anti slaughter folks are willing to take every horse being sent to slaughter and pay for them until their lives are over, until the anti slaughter people are willing to pay thousands of dollars to keep these unwanted, for whatever reason, alive and care for them and have the land to bury them when they die, then the only alternative is slaughter. You won't answer my question about causing pain to one of your horses, will you answer this? Have you ever made money on a horse, either by training, selling or whatever?
If so, then according to your ideas, you are as much as fault as the people who breed, race, train horses because they are making money to keep the circle going around that you are so against.
(By the way, thousands of greyhounds are killed every year because there are not enough homes for them to go in when done racing, yet not many people care about them.)


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## herdbound

Wyoming again I say I am not "anti-slaughter" I AM anti-suffering. I think what people do with their own animals IS their own business UNLESS their "business" creates suffering and leads to the death of their animal by their own neglectful actions. If a person starves their horse to death it is a crime. If they fail to water their horse it is a crime. Because these actions can lead to the death of the animal and are cruel. Well I say an unaccountable breeding practice is also "cruel" and has the same outcome as the former crimes...untimely death brought about by human action or in some cases inaction. And I will say this again...The MAJORITY of horse owners are like you and I, we take care of our animals wyoming. I have been round and round on this subject so much...I will drop it on here. I stated what I had to say. The problem isn't with "individual" owners. It is with the mass production of horses for the racing industry & show circuits. Who am I to say what you do with your animals. No one. But just as a decent human being I can not set by and act like suffering brought about by human error and greed is acceptable. We have several million homeless pets in this country. People in China eat dogs instead of having a humane society should we start making a profit by sending our unwanted dogs off to China to be eaten? We have managed to take grasp of that situation through education, and campaigns to enforce & encourage responsible pet ownership...I would like to see the same thing happen for horses. Thats all. Since people can't seem to do it on their own goodwill then yes I support having laws put into place to protect the well being of equines. But like I said I am done with this on here. I have said my two cents. I will continue to be active in my pursuits of helping to find solutions instead of bickering about the problem. Until someone cuts the head off this beast thousands of animals will continue to be born and used up and sliced up without reprocussion to the people who exploit the system.


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## Palomine

Question for all the pros/antis here....

Would it change your mind to actually be IN the slaughter plant and watch the killing? If you saw cruelty would it make you be more against it?

Or if you saw it done humanely, would you then be more in favor of it?

Simple fact is, and this is true no matter where any of us are on this, cruelty and inhumane treatment of slaughter animals is a fact. Enough videos have been taken secretly to show this. And I imagine enough of us have seen the cruelty in other humans in our dealings with them to know the capacity for it, without adding slaughtering into the equation.

I agree with Dr. Grandin when she has said the only way to effectively end inhumane treatment is to have live feeds every moment. Anything less than that? Guarantees cruelty will happen over and over.

Secondly, if the new EU laws do go into effect 2013? May not be any slaughter here or Canada, or Mexico. Depends on how much lying can be done, and if laws are enforced. And I also feel since China is also gung ho for these laws about any medications/wormers can't be given within 6 months, that China is raising horse herds specifically FOR slaughter and consumption in the EU. Not much the Chinese would not do...after their Cultural Revolution, killing of dogs rather than vaccination programs for rabies, and the other things that come to light? Nothing they do surprises me.

US businesses sending jobs over there does however.


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## faye

Palomine said:


> Question for all the pros/antis here....
> 
> Would it change your mind to actually be IN the slaughter plant and watch the killing? If you saw cruelty would it make you be more against it?
> 
> Or if you saw it done humanely, would you then be more in favor of it?
> 
> Simple fact is, and this is true no matter where any of us are on this, cruelty and inhumane treatment of slaughter animals is a fact. Enough videos have been taken secretly to show this. And I imagine enough of us have seen the cruelty in other humans in our dealings with them to know the capacity for it, without adding slaughtering into the equation.
> 
> .


I have worked for 6 months in an abattoir (slaughter house) and I never once saw any cruelty or suffering from the animals.


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## busysmurf

I think there should've been a "depends on the situation" vote. So I just put "I don't know yet"

It has it's benifits and down-sides


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## herdbound

My biggest beef with this is the fact that every year 40,000 Thoroughbreds are born to make that coveted 20 horse spot at the Derby in May...ok what happens to the 39980 others? Some of them are turned into breeders. Mares give up around 3 usually and the rest well lots of them make up the 130,000+ horses being sent to slaughter. To me this is an unexcuseable excess of animals. It is as bad as the "puppy mill" situation and at this point nothing is really being done to govern this practice...and every year 40,000 more are being born. That puts a HUGE burden on the rescues and everyone else who has opened up their hearts to try and save these poor animals who only sin was being born. QH show industry is about the same in breeding for perfection and if you don't make the cut you have to go somewhere and somewhere often is slaughter. To me this is just extremely iresponsible and everyone else is having to clean up their messes. My dad worked in a slaughterhouse and he told me what would happen it was horrific to think of that being "ok" with anyone other than a sociopath. In that video when the man is stabbing that poor horse in the neck to paralyze it and the other workers break out in applause when it finally falls down all I could think was "how sick are you people...now if that had been an unwanted labrador retriever who's meat was going to China how would the world have reacted." Like I said a million times this is not a backyard breeders problem although those two industries try to constantly shift the blame over onto us the individual horse owners...MOST of this problem is because of them and the massive "foal milling" processes it takes to get those very select few of "super horses" bred for speed and esthetic perfection the show industry wants. All others die because they aren't "perfect"...there really needs to be some accountability.


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## FlyGap

I'm curious, not trying to be mean or start a fight, but how many of the anti-slaughter and pro-slaughter people here have gone and purchased a horse from a sale barn? Not rescued or purchased a horse in need that was said to be heading to the sale, or a horse on the lot that would have been purchased by another individual, but taken a risk on an unwanted horse where you outbid the meat buyer?


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## kevinshorses

I used to buy several of them every year until the bottom fell out of the horse market and I couldn't make any money on them.


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## smrobs

*raises hand* We've had quite a few horses over the years from auction houses and brought home 2 that were being sent directly to the slaughter house by their former owners.


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## FlyGap

Me too. Three of them and I'm pro.


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## herdbound

I have never bought one from the sale. But what I have done is been the trainer at a rescue here for horses that were from the auction. I helped start many horses who didn't have a dang thing wrong with them. Within the next month my sister and I are going to the auction to buy two. We are going after TB's...they will be evaluated...ridden for 30-60 days and rehomed...then we are going to repeat. My neices mare Star was bought on Wednesday and if she didn't buy her she was headed to sale on Fri. She has turned out to be an amazing horse. I have been to the auction with the rescue but it wasn't my money buying them so I cannot say I have bought any.


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## Druydess

herdbound said:


> Wyoming again I say I am not "anti-slaughter" I AM anti-suffering. I think what people do with their own animals IS their own business UNLESS their "business" creates suffering and leads to the death of their animal by their own neglectful actions. If a person starves their horse to death it is a crime. If they fail to water their horse it is a crime. Because these actions can lead to the death of the animal and are cruel. Well I say an unaccountable breeding practice is also "cruel" and has the same outcome as the former crimes...untimely death brought about by human action or in some cases inaction. And I will say this again...The MAJORITY of horse owners are like you and I, we take care of our animals wyoming. I have been round and round on this subject so much...I will drop it on here. I stated what I had to say. The problem isn't with "individual" owners. It is with the mass production of horses for the racing industry & show circuits. Who am I to say what you do with your animals. No one. But just as a decent human being I can not set by and act like suffering brought about by human error and greed is acceptable. We have several million homeless pets in this country. People in China eat dogs instead of having a humane society should we start making a profit by sending our unwanted dogs off to China to be eaten? We have managed to take grasp of that situation through education, and campaigns to enforce & encourage responsible pet ownership...I would like to see the same thing happen for horses. Thats all. Since people can't seem to do it on their own goodwill then yes I support having laws put into place to protect the well being of equines. But like I said I am done with this on here. I have said my two cents. I will continue to be active in my pursuits of helping to find solutions instead of bickering about the problem. Until someone cuts the head off this beast thousands of animals will continue to be born and used up and sliced up without reprocussion to the people who exploit the system.


Well said Herdbound.. I agree.


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## Druydess

Palomine said:


> Question for all the pros/antis here....
> 
> Would it change your mind to actually be IN the slaughter plant and watch the killing? If you saw cruelty would it make you be more against it?
> 
> Or if you saw it done humanely, would you then be more in favor of it?
> 
> *Simple fact is, and this is true no matter where any of us are on this, cruelty and inhumane treatment of slaughter animals is a fact.* Enough videos have been taken secretly to show this. And I imagine enough of us have seen the cruelty in other humans in our dealings with them to know the capacity for it, without adding slaughtering into the equation.
> 
> I agree with Dr. Grandin when she has said the only way to effectively end inhumane treatment is to have live feeds every moment. Anything less than that? Guarantees cruelty will happen over and over.
> 
> Secondly, if the new EU laws do go into effect 2013? May not be any slaughter here or Canada, or Mexico. Depends on how much lying can be done, and if laws are enforced. And I also feel since China is also gung ho for these laws about any medications/wormers can't be given within 6 months, that China is raising horse herds specifically FOR slaughter and consumption in the EU. Not much the Chinese would not do...after their Cultural Revolution, killing of dogs rather than vaccination programs for rabies, and the other things that come to light? Nothing they do surprises me.
> 
> US businesses sending jobs over there does however.


I bolded the heart of it in your quote.. this is true. No amount of lip service will change that.
And yes, after seeing how they're killed, I am against horse slaughter.


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## Cherie

Thank you Kevin. You just proved one of the main points that I TRY to make when I tell people why stopping local slaughter was one of the worst things that ever happened to horses in general and to untrained or green ones in particular.

When the market crashed in 2006 and 2007 (well before the economy went south but corresponds directly with the closing of the US slaughter plants) people no longer bought 'project horses'. Kevin and about 10,000 other horsemen and part-time horsemen quit buying project horses because they could no longer make money on them. Simple as that, hundreds of thousands of healthy, sound (mostly registered) prospects lost their value and their lives. 

People that have been on here and listened to me for very long know that I get really angry that so many of these prospects are killed while people with the means 'rescue' cripples and skinny old horses that need to be put down. This really upsets me. There is nothing wrong with these prospects other than they have lost their value.

All of these young horse are going to slaughter -- not because too many horses are being raised -- but because ending the 'good' slaughter market in this country made all of these horses lose their 'VALUE'. It is their loss of value that killed the horse market.

We know many people that raised Foundationbred QH saddle stock that were selling yearlings prior to that time for about $1500.00 and up. After that time, they dropped to $50.00 to $100.00 each. Why? Cheap and even registered saddle horses dropped to the point where you could buy broke ones cheaper than you could break and train one or have one trained. Cowboys around here used to ride outside colts for $1000.00 to $1500.00 for 2 months. Why on earth would you buy a prospect and pay $1000.00 to have him broke when you can buy a broke registered horse for $500.00? People haven't.

This is why you are still seeing 3 and 4 and even 5 and 6 year olds that are not halter broke, have not had their registration applications sent in and are just waiting for their breeders to 'give up' and get rid of them at the sales. When they were bred - 4 and 5 years ago, there WAS a good market for them and they had a future. After the slaughter plants were closed, their future went down the drain with them. To have a future, VALUE has to come back to the market. For value to come back to the market, there has to be a healthy $800.00 to $1000.00 slaughter market to make all the horses bring more than that as a 'floor' price.

Not only did the prospect market go all to heck, the level of care that ALL lower end saddle horses get dropped to an all-time low. Many people no longer call a Vet or even furnish decent basic care when they can replace a horse cheaper than doctor or care for one. 

Now, I can get off of my soap-box and answer the question:

I bought one last night. The only other bidder was one of the two kill buyers that were there.

I buy about 10 or 15 a year now -- far fewer than I used to. About half of them go back to the next sale because they won't stay sound or are too spoiled to get gentle enough for my business. Some have been Aced and wake up in a new world the next day. I just stick them in a quarantine pen and run them back through in two weeks at the next sale.

I used to be sort of an 'order buyer' for project horses for quite a few 'cowboys' and part-time horse trainers that had 'day jobs'. I went to a lot of sales but was never a 'trader' and never did short-term quick turn-over horses. I have my own breeding stock and never wanted a bunch of 'sickos' to deal with. I bought a lot of prospects -- probably 20 or 30 or more every year for guys like Kevin. I was paid the sale ticket plus $50.00. They came and picked them up a day or two after the sale. These were mostly registered, good boned, good footed, good headed (preferably with color) ranch horse prospects that they could ride a season and make money on. If they were a little thin and looked a little 'rough', they were bargains. When the market was good, I would give up to $1500.00 or a little more for a nice one. Most were wild as deer but that was not problem for me or for the guys. The guys were usually ticked with them and most made really good ranch horses. 

I have not bought a project horse in 3 or 4 years. No one has wanted one. But, the young horses at the sale were up the last two sales. I think the economy is improving and we are running out of broke horses and several years of prospects have been killed. I think there is hope -- particularly if they get a processing plant or two on line here in the US. The prices horses bring would not be lowered by a $300.00 to $400.00 hauling bill.


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## herdbound

Cherie I don't know...I feel like the fact that our economy crashed has more to do with this situation than ending horse slaughter. I mean the economy has A LOT to do with the the price of our feed, which is a direct product of the price of gasoline, the price of hay went up because of that too. Everything went up at about the same time everything else fell through...people lost jobs, companies closed, people had to relocate...I mean it was a mess and none of that had to do with horse slaughter. But given the choice between feeding a horse and my children I chose my kids....and I know quite a few people who had to make that choice and hence they sold their horses. There were so many people in this situation people were giving away horses by the trailer loads in a final plea of desperation. Whole breeders, farms went under during this economic crisis. Horses are a luxury...not a necessity. Everyone blames the ending of horse slaughter in the US for this...I blame the fact that we were and for some part still are in an economic crisis. 

The plants that did operate here weren't shut down by the government either as many assume. The last three were shut down by the communities in which they resided for failing to pay taxes, and being a blight on the communities they were located in. Dead horse parts, whole foals, blood and other bodily excrements were routinely left for the surrounding communities to enjoy the looks and smell of them. The municipalities fought to have them removed...it wasn't anti-slaughter people as so many assume.


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## Druydess

Yes- the economy crashed. That was and remains the problem. If slaughter was still legal..people wouldn't have any more money than they currently do. So... same problem remains one way or the other..


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## herdbound

Druyedess I just want a sensible resolution to the situation. The first hurdle to that is finding the "problem" and shutting it off. Just like if your bathtub was overflowing you would first shut off the spout...then clean up the overflow. We NEED to shut of the spout. Simple. The huge contributors to this "excess of unwanted" horses is two industries. The racing and QH industries. Because it is downright neglectful to bring thousands of animals into the world when we have such a "problem" already. IF the pipeline were closed these two industries we need to reevaluate this excess because then it WOULD be there problem to deal with. I mean you can't bring more babies into the barn IF the barn is full and there is no "meat man" to call to come relieve your pressure for space. They would be forced to bring their own numbers under control. As for these "starved, neglected, horses" everyone uses as the reason for this market to exist...CALL THE AUTHORITIES on the owners. There are protective agencies in place to remove & if need be euthanize these animals properly....and if they are found guilty they LOSE THE RIGHT to own more. Problem solved. The neglectful owners should not be able to make a profit off of neglecting animals. Correcting the true issues are the only way to end this nightmare.


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## Cherie

Wrong! Wrong! and WRONG!!! on all counts.

1) None of the plants were closed down by their communities. None of them.

Dallas Crown was closed down in 2007 by an obscure 'Texas law that animal rights terrorists found that was still on the Texas books. It was written in 1947 and passed both houses and was signed into law by Governor Allan Shivers in 1949. 

This law was pushed by the Texas and Southwestern Cattle Raisers because they did not want the competition from horsemeat for their beef. During WW II horse-meat was sold all over the United States because most of the beef went to the army and the war effort. After the war, horse-meat was still being sold, much of it labeled as beef. The Texas Cattlemen pushed this bill so that they could eliminate horse-meat from the Texas Market place and would raise the price of beef. The law was written so that horse-meat could still be sold for pet food and zoo meat but could not be sold for human consumption. It was this long-forgotten law that shut down both of the Texas Plants.

The Beltex Plant in Fort Worth stayed open another year selling only zoo meat and meat for Greyhounds and other dogs. I think they finally closed and some other plant is now killing horses for non-human consumption - mostly Zoo meat for big cats.

The Belgian owners of Beltex still runs the huge (20,000 head) horse feedlot in Morton, Texas and they built the big plant in Mexico. 

The plant in Illinois was closed by a statewide referendum vote. Of course, when people do not understand the unintended consequences of having no place for unwanted horses to end up, they voted to stop all horse slaughter in Illinois and 'save all the pretty horses'. 

None were closed by local communities. None were 'well-run', all were old and all were managed terribly but they were in business until laws shut them down. 

2) I am a lot older than you. Were you even alive during the last big recession and horse market crash in the late 80s and early 90s? Hundreds of thousands of good horses went to slaughter. 350,000 horses a year (more than double what it was during this recession) was slaughtered during these years. A #1 slaughter horse (usually around 1300#) was selling for more than $1000.00 at the plant. They were bringing $800.00 to $1000.00 right here in Oklahoma. This was at a time when cattle were selling for the same or less than live horses. During that recession and horse sell-off I cannot remember seeing thin or starved horses. When a horse has a value of $1000.00, people will take care of it, call a Vet, have its feet done -- they take care of a $1000.00 horse while a $50.00 horse just has to survive or maybe not. It has to live till the grass greens up or it just has to die. That is an attitude you see everywhere today that you never saw during the last horse depression.

The slaughter market has always been the 'floor price' or 'set-in' price for all livestock. It means that every horse (or cow - usually breeding stock like heifers and young bulls) that someone wants for riding or breeding has to bring more than the set-it price at an auction.

The price dropped on the horse market 2 years before the recession hit. We were running at full employment before the crash of 2008. The only difference was that the set-in or floor price crashed and brought all others down with it. 

You are also way off base on your TB numbers. There are fewer than 30,000 foals per year and 80% of them are raced. I think about 60% of them are raced as two year olds. A full 8% of them become stakes winners. 

Like the prospect and project horse market, the OTTB market has also crashed and caused many more TBs to go to slaughter. This, again, is a result of the loss of value of sale-barn horses, which is directly attributable to the loss of the slaughter market

The unintended consequences of stopping horse slaughter in the US has been devastating to the horse business, but also to the horses. With their loss of value has come a huge drop in their level of care all across the nation. Top show and race horses and the high end of horses is unaffected. But, the lower end saddle horse market and care has plummeted. 

Can anyone on this board honestly say that the number of starved and neglected horses and the number slaughtered young horses and the overall level of care of horses has not gone down since the floor price dropped?

*Even PETA has had to admit that.* I think everybody here that loves horses should be trying to figure out a way to bring slaughter back with improved handling and methods. If they can raise and humanely slaughter horses in Iceland and several other countries, it sure cannot be that difficult here. No one wants to see horses suffer or be treated inhumanely. But, until someone tells me what else should happen to the 150,000 plus horses per year that are totally unwanted by anyone, I see no other way. A good 'healthy' high slaughter market is the best thing that could happen for horsemen and for horses. Fewer would be unwanted if the market came back. The level of care would go back up and the number of abandoned and neglected horses would go down.


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## smrobs

Cherie, like times 1000 to every single one of your posts.


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## FlyGap

1,000% correct!! Thank you Cherie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## herdbound

Cherie please go back and read my post on the two articles I base many of my facts on. The study on the Cessation of Horse Slaughter in the US & The Study on The Horse Industries Economic Effects. My facts are NOT wrong when it comes to why those plants were shut down. They WERE closed for outstanding fines, failure to pay taxes, and a total blight on the communities where they were located.

Excerpt:

" In 2006, The House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly to end horse slaughter, but the bill never came to a vote before the Senate. In 2007 two horse slaughter plants in Texas were ordered closed following protracted battles with their local municipalities, who voiced objections over the slaughter houses' financial drain on the municipalities without providing tax revenue, ditches of blood, dismembered foals, and reek of offal and waste in residential neighborhoods.[30] Later that year, an abattoir in Illinois, reported to be the last horse meat abattoir in the U.S., was also closed following local community action.[31] Prior to 2007, three major equine slaughterhouses operated in the United States: Dallas Crown, Inc. in Kaufman, Texas; Beltex Corporation in Fort Worth, Texas; and Cavel International, Inc. in DeKalb, Illinois, all with Belgian ownership, although Multimeat NW has also been listed as French and Dutch owned. Velda NV owns Cavel, Multimeat NV owns Beltex and Chevideco owns Dallas Crown."


This is from an article in Wikipedia...
Horse slaughter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Now as far as you being a lot older than me...ect...I don't think that is relevant to the fact that the market HAS changed and much of it has to do with the financial crisis we are in today. PLUS the role of horses in our society has changed...everything has changed and it is our responsibility to manage these animals in a humane way. People who are having their homes foreclosed on by the millions mind you can not afford the luxury of owning horses. You want to defend this why? Why would we breed MORE horses into a downed market? Why???? That makes absolutely NO SENSE.


The study on the economics of the horse industry indicates there are almost 900,000 TB's and OVER HALF are breedstock...why? As I said I have done my research quite well on this matter. I know my facts and figures on the subject. I am not some uneducated fanatic who doesn't know what she is talking about. Just because you have a certain veiw point I respect that. *I am again going to say this one more time. I am anti-suffering. Suffering inflicted on anything...be it a bird, a dog a cat, a horse is completely and totally unnecessary. I am against them using kill boxes designed for cattle. I am against them botching these attempts with the bolt guns...I am against them stabbing them in the spine...I am against cruelty & suffering. Why would any human being be pro-suffering? *


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## herdbound

*The Horse Market Decline Caused by the Economy*

As of 2010, horse values have dropped significantly since 2008, when the U.S. economy experienced a severe economic downturn. Unfortunately, unlike most companies which reduce or cease production and focus on moving existing inventory in a down market, the horse breeding industry continued to breed horses. Some of these breeders believe slaughter is the answer to the horses they continue to breed, rather than adjusting to market conditions, as they are not interested in paying for the continued upkeep for when they don't sell, nor pay for humane euthanasia. Unfortunately the short-term glut on the horse market problem will not be solved by horse slaughter, which only demands 1% of American horses per year. A longer-term view is being advocated by humane organizations, where breeding is more heavily regulated to prevent irresponsible business practices by horse breeders.


In addition, a drop in the economic status of horse owners can result in the inability to provide their horse an appropriate standard of care, which can lead to horse neglect. The continued breeding of horses only makes this situation worse.[51] This situation has also led to an increase in the number of horse abandonment and cruelty cases.[52][53][54]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter#cite_note-53
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_slaughter#Closing_of_U.S._slaughter_plants


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## Cherie

Gee! I feel like a school teacher correcting inaccurate papers.

It seems you need a lesson in how private property ownership, the free market system and a Republic like ours works. I, for one, am not ready or willing to turn this into a totalitarian government controlled marketplace. 

This is your 'plan'?



> Simple. The huge contributors to this "excess of unwanted" horses is two industries. The racing and QH industries. Because it is downright neglectful to bring thousands of animals into the world when we have such a "problem" already. IF the pipeline were closed these two industries we need to reevaluate this excess because then it WOULD be there problem to deal with. I mean you can't bring more babies into the barn IF the barn is full and there is no "meat man" to call to come relieve your pressure for space. They would be forced to bring their own numbers under control.


There are several things WRONG and inaccurate about this statement. 

First of all, the QH and racing industries do not raise a single horse. The last time I checked, the AQHA and The Jockey Club do not and have not raised a single horse. An 'industry' is not a breeder. Breeders are 'FREE individuals like you and me that are still allowed in our great Republic to decide if we want to breed a mare that WE OWN. 

Like everything else in this 'free market' system, it is ruled by the marketplace and not the registries or the 'industry' as such. It is ruled by 'supply and demand' and the market prices. This is how it should be. Five or 6 years ago, the market was great. BUT! There is one major flaw in the 'free market' system. It takes 4 - 5 years or even longer to: 1) Plan; 2) Breed the mare and feed her for a year; 3) Foal out the mare - the baby is born and weaned; 4) Feed and/or fit the Yearling; 5) Feed, fit and start training the 2 year old. 

So, the market can crash in year 2 or 3 and you still have a huge colt crop maturing in years 3, 4 and 5. This lag time can create a huge over-supply like it has; it can create a shortage (like what is going to happen in the current cattle market. Just wait and see what you have to pay for beef in 2 or 3 years because of the sell-off and shortage of cattle created by the drought last year.)

Are YOU going to be the one telling owners of livestock how many mares they can breed and which mares for which purpose should be bred and which they should not? Are you the 'all-knowing Guru' that is going to be appointed by the Government or the 'industry' to tell individual owners what they can and cannot do with THEIR stock?

In 2008 when the market crashed, there was a huge number of horses being raised. The market had been so high that several big northern cattle ranches sold their cows, found all of the Foundationbed QH fillies they could find and were raising 400 and 500 foals a year. Some were having sales every fall where these foals were bringing $1500.00 to $5000.00 each or even more. The cattle they sold had been raising $350.00 calves. We knew that bubble had to pop because too many foals were being produced and there was not a sustainable market for that many foals. We knew it had to fall apart. When it crashed, it was just like the real estate bubble where real estate had gotten too high. When things get too high, they have to crash. When this was coupled by the worst recession since the 30s, it was real wreck for the horse market.

BUT! Are you going to be the one to tell them not to breed the horses they owned when they were selling foals in the fall for thousands of dollars each? Luck with that.

The market place is the only way to take care of it. It has a 4-5 year lag time, but that is the way a free market system works where livestock is concerned.

Did you know that in 2009 and 2010, the number of AQHA mares being bred dropped to the lowest number since 1972? The lowest number of foals is now in the pipeline that there has been in 40 years. The numbers have dropped far below the numbers after the previous recession. 

This is how the 'free market' or 'free enterprise' system works. It does not need Government intervention or people like you telling people like me what to breed and what to do with our horses. The market place will tell us. We just can't make it 'retroactive'.

Next:



> As for these "starved, neglected, horses" everyone uses as the reason for this market to exist...CALL THE AUTHORITIES on the owners. There are protective agencies in place to remove & if need be euthanize these animals properly....and if they are found guilty they LOSE THE RIGHT to own more. Problem solved.


I am not using them as an excuse. They are very real. The problem is, they are out in back pastures and not at the edge of town on Main Street. They are left to starve in a back pasture because they are not worth bringing to a sale and won't bring the cost of the Coggins Test, yardage and minimum commission. You know -- that darn 'floor price' or 'set in price' that was lost and is now too low to cover selling them so they starve instead.

The rescues are full. The Sheriffs' offices do not have the money or resources to move them or feed them. Hell - we can't even stop people from neglecting and abusing children. Do you really think the taxpayers will pay officers to go out and hunt down all the horses hidden in back pastures.

What about the thousands of horses that have now been abandoned on public land and in some pastures. Horses have been hit on highways in many states because they had been dumped out by people that did not know or could not afford to do anything else with them. We know some people in Alabama that had to put up a locked gate across their cattle-guard on their ranch. Two times they came out in the morning to find someone had driven over their cattle-guard and turned out trailer loads of old broodmares and junk horses. They had to have them put down and had to get a backhoe to bury them. After the second bunch, they put up a HD gate with a big lock and they faithfully lock it every night.

You know, no matter how many horses are bred and no matter how good or bad the market is, there are always going to be 100,000 horses or more every year that are 'un-wanted'. This means that if the 'set-in' price is $500.00 at every sale for 1000# horse, there are still going to be at least 100,000 of them that no one other than a slaughter buyer is going to bid on them.
So, just tell me one thing:

*If there is no slaughter market and unwanted horses cannot be hauled to Canada or Mexico, what is going to happen to them? Who is going to take them and 'save' them or put them down and dispose of them at a cost of $200.00 to $500.00 each*? 

*Then, give me one good reason that the meat should become toxic waste when it can be utilized as meat? The dead horse is sure not going to care.*

Oh well, I don't have to explain all of this to the real horsemen that understand the business and I am wasting my time trying to explain it to people that don't understand the 'industry' or simple American economics.

Goodnight.


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## herdbound

I am making my reply to this short and sweet. If as individuals we can not govern ourselves and our actions bring upon undue pain and suffering of others...then yes that is why we have laws...to enforce and protect those that cannot do it themselves. Just as puppy mills have rules, laws, and legislation these industries should have them as well. There is a problem and if we can't clean it up on our own good free will then I am all for the government stepping in and addressing the situation that upholds the basic humane treatment of animals. 

The horse market being compared to the cattle market has a lot of flaws. Number one cattle ARE raised for consumption...that is their primary use. Beef, milk, leather...Horses are raised for pleasure in the US not for food. Hence if we do not have a market for this commodity why are we producing more. Basic economics of supply and demand. 

You have your stand point on this...and I have mine....you can be as condescending to me as you like. It really doesn't bother me. You are not the first person who has a difference of opinion with me on this matter. I have learned to agree to disagree. You have stated your point. And I have stated mine. That is all we can do. You will live with your decisions and they may have no bother to you. I will live with mine so that they will have no bother to me. Fighting about it on a forum will do nothing more than be a waste of time and mental energy. I respect your stance...I respect mine as well.


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## herdbound

Maybe the biggest difference is that horses are not a business to me...they are a passion for me.


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## Cherie

I will agree to disagree. I was not going to post again on this thread. I really said all I wanted to about 20 pages ago. I just cannot let mis-statements and inaccurate statement stand as fact.

Just answer this one (I guess two) questions then!



> *If there is no slaughter market and unwanted horses cannot be hauled to Canada or Mexico, what is going to happen to them? Who is going to take them and 'save' them or put them down and dispose of them at a cost of $200.00 to $500.00 each*?
> 
> *Then, give me one good reason that the meat should become toxic waste when it can be utilized as meat? The dead horse is sure not going to care.*


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## smrobs

Just because many of us are realistic about the problem and are able to look at it objectively and see every angle of it doesn't make us any less passionate about horses.

If we're going to have the government step in and tell us what we can do with our _own_ **** horses...why stop there?

Why don't we let them tell us how much money we can spend on groceries in a given month and what kind of groceries we can buy? You like oranges? Sorry, you are not a member of the correct social class to buy them. You want to go watch a movie? Sorry, but that is not in your government approved budget.

Why don't we let them decide how many children we can have (or if certain individuals are even permitted to have children)?

Why don't we let _them _tell _us_ what job we can have and let them, not the company, set limits on how much money we will make working said job?

Why not let _them _dictate where our children go to school and where we live?

Oh, and since _they _will dictate where we live, we will not be allowed to own our own property. What's so wrong with that, right?

If you want to live in a socialist country where the government makes all the decisions for you, why not move to China or Vietnam?


People are irresponsible. Having the government step in will not make them any more responsible. Part of having freedom to make our own choices is being responsible about the choices that we make. Very few people understand that and they only thing about themselves and what is best for them in that particular moment. They don't think long term, they don't see the big picture. Having the government make their choices for them will not change that.

Where is the budget going to come from to increase the number of ASPCA or law enforcement workers out there looking for neglected animals? 

Where is the money going to come from to feed/care for/euthanize and dispose of those animals that they seize?

Our country already has a national deficit in the billions. It's not like they can just pull more money out of their collective *** to create more jobs. If they could do that, we wouldn't be in a friggin recession:?.


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## Cherie

HB -- I hate to pop your bubble, but the Wikipedia 'articles' written on horse slaughter are ALL written by animal right activists and terrorists. They are inaccurate -- downright lies. I followed the Texas legal battles day by day as it was happening. When the 1949 law was found, the AR nuts went 'judge shopping' and did a lot of back-room under-handed working to get the application of that old law decided by the judge they wanted. They worked hard to get that old law applied to modern day exports where the meat was not used for consumption or retailed in Texas. They found a judge sympathetic to their cause and he shut the meat business down. It had absolutely nothing to do with local people or taxes or anything else the Animal rights liars try to tell people. 

The AR activists have taken over the media and manipulated it to suit themselves. Their lies and half-truths have caused untold suffering by horses. The unintended consequences of stopping slaughter will ripple through the industry until the truth makes those in power see what it has really caused. The reversal in Congress is the beginning of the truth coming out.

I hope the AR nuts are ready to take over all of the unwanted horses if they ever are successful in stopping slaughter all together.


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## herdbound

I can say the same about the pro-slaughter campaigns facts and figures. I could say that they are being manipulated by the people making money off of the sale & slaughter of these animals. It would be easier for me to believe this because the pro-slaughter people actually have motivation for this...it's called $$$$ lots and lots of it and thats always been a good reason for people to manipulate facts and make it seem as if their way is the only way. 

On the contrary what do we who just want the suffering to end have at stake? Will we make any money off the stopping of this? Nope. I am willing to actually sacrifice $$$ because somethings are more important than $$$. What is our motivation for wanting it to end? Because morally & ethicly it is WRONG to abuse, neglect & exploit animals. 

I like how people highlight PETA in their comments. I am not affiliated with neither PETA or the HSUS. I would like to see a campaign started though that models what the HSUS did for cats and dogs and applied to horse. Education, low cost clinics, and an appeal to the public to consider compassion over cruelty towards horses. Thats all I want. More accountability for the owners. Would that effect most of us. No. Because the majority of horse enthusiasts take care of their animals and are not the issue. 

I am in no way attacking you. I do not know you. You seem to be an educated human being. I do attack this practice. I am sorry if this offends you but I cannot sit by and watch this horror show continue for something I care for so deeply. We are not the web of life, but a mere strand. We have something inside us that the animals do not...its called compassion. And I would always opt to error on the side of compassion than oppose it.


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## herdbound

And I also would like to say that I find being called a "nut" and a "terrorist" by people who justify stabbing an animal repeatedly in it's spine to paralyze it to be ironic. I am a terrorist because I do not support cruelty? Hmmmm that seems a little backwards.


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## Speed Racer

Now your true colors are coming out, herdbound.

Where has anyone, anti_ or_ pro, stated that stabbing a horse to kill it ISN'T inhumane? You want to take the moral high ground, but it's_ because_ the slaughter houses were closed here in the US that more of our horses are going to places where they _can_ be stabbed to death, and we can do exactly diddly squat about it. Good job, antis! 

So _what_ if people make money from sending horses to slaughter? Where is your crying, wringing of hands, and outrage for the cattle, sheep, swine, and other livestock that go to slaughter? ZOMG! Those livestock farmers are making money by selling their animals for meat!!!! How DARE they try to make a living!!!! :?

It's a business, plain and simple. If you don't want to sell your animals to slaughter, then _don't_. What I find immoral is that YOU want to impose YOUR beliefs on everyone else, and couch it in terms of being more loving, sensitive, and caring for animals than anyone else. *Bullspit*.


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## herdbound

Speed Racer said:


> Now your true colors are coming out, herdbound.
> 
> 
> So _what_ if people make money from sending horses to slaughter? Where is your crying, wringing of hands, and outrage for the cattle, sheep, swine, and other livestock that go to slaughter? ZOMG! Those livestock farmers are making money by selling their animals for meat!!!! How DARE they try to make a living!!!! :?


Why are horses being lumped in with animals used for consumption? Last time I checked it was illegal to consume horses in the US. These other countries may do it...but the people in China also eat dogs...so should we start sending off all these homeless dogs to China too? I mean why not it's protein and they are willing to eat it? We could kill two birds with one stone. There has to be a line drawn in the sand...and for me horses belong on one side of that line. And as for my true colors I have never hidden them...I display them proudly. I love horses it makes my stomach sick to know what is happening to them. When you say you do not support animals being stabbed in the neck by saying that you are pro-slaughter you do. Or are you saying you are pro-slaughter if done in America and it is done humanely? Because as of now that is not happening. And from the grapevine I hear that these places are finding a hardtime finding investors to support slaughterhouses for horses in the US. SO even though they are allowed to open up they are having a rough go at finding funding. As is they are being tortured and inhumanely killed...if you stand for slaughter then YES you do support this behavior. I am anti-suffering - right now slaughter is causing suffering thus I am AGAINST sending horses to slaughter.


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## kevinshorses

I'm anti-suffering too. I'm against tiedowns and correction bits and barrelracing and big lick TWH and many other things that don't end in death. At least when the horse is stabbed in the spine the suffering is over on a few minutes. I've seen people torture horses for years and think that they were riding them. 

While I don't like any of the above things I'm not going to support banning them through laws because I value freedom above all else. I value private property rights and the freedom to chose the disposition of that property. I don't want a world where you have to have a permit or a liscence for everything I do. In 1950 1 out of 20 people had a job that required government liscensing or permits. Now the nember is 1 in 3. That scares the hell out of me. Now the government wants to control my access to medical care. If a the government is allowed to have that power they can control everything you do.


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## kevinshorses

And I think stray dogs should be shipped to China or anywhere else that will eat them if it's cost effective.


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## faye

The worst thing the US ever did for equine welfare was ban slaughter.

There is no other option for a lot of horses so they are either dumped and starve to death, they get shipped to mexico where they have horrible deaths or they get shipped to canada where they face an extremely long distressing journey up there.

Recues are full, horses are a luxury, people can't afford luxurys any longer.

In Certain parts of Europe horses are concidered as meat producing livestock and are bred just for thier meat.

A horse is just an animal, yes I am irrationaly attached to mine (despite the fact he broke my wrist the other day) and would hate to see him go to slaughter, but if it came down to him going for meat or starving to death I'd rather a quick bullet to the head and an end to any possible suffering for him.

Herdbound I realy don't believe that you care for horses that deeply, more that you care for your beliefs more then for the horse itself. If you REALY cared about horses you would not want to see them suffer in anyway, which means you would realise that going for slaughter often prevents suffering and properly regulated slaughter definatly prevents LOTS of suffering. Once a horse is dead what you do with the carcass is irrelevant as the soul of that horse, the part that made it what it was has gone and the body is just meat and bones that can be used for better things than rotting.

PETA are terrorists, they don't work on facts they work on causing hysteria. You want a real charity that does REAL welfare campaigning and has actualy made a positive difference to animal welfare around the globe then you should look at WHW (world horse welfare, formerly the ILPH), they at least are sensible in the fact that slaughter is a nessecary evil and they campaign to make it as regulated as possible and to ensure that the horses welfare never suffers.

They have the "on the hook not the Hoof" campaign, because they realise slaughter is a nessecary evil they want it done localy so horses are not crammed into overcrowded trailers travelled thousands of miles with little water and no hay or suffer injuries and sometimes death by trampling on the way.

WHW truely care about horses from birth to death. I cant say that you do the same.


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## herdbound

Ok I will say this one last time. *I am not a member of PETA...I am not affiliated with PETA or HSUS.* Again most of the animals sent to slaughter are NOT skinny, neglected horses. They are fat perfectly healthy sane animals. To say I do not care for horses doesn't even effect me. It would be like you calling me fat...neither are true and both I know are false. I care deeply about them, enough to say that the system is outdated and needs overhauled from the beginning to the end. And instead of saying , oh well what can you do about it, it's not my problem I stand up and speak out and do whatever I can to help it be resolved. Better breeding standards, more accountability, better enforcement of existing laws governing the care and welfare of animals during their lives AND humane euthanasia when required, need to be instituted ASAP. 

To you they may just be an animal...to me they are a living creature with the ability to feel pain and to me it is our responsibility when we take them on to care for them through the entirety of their lives...not slough them off because they no longer suit our needs. If you don't have the money or the ability to do so...you shouldn't own a horse. As for the government and laws being introduced and enforced, unfortunately when people can't do it on their own free will make humane and sound judgements, I am all for the law getting involved to protect those who are weaker or who have no voice. We have many laws sure, but it's because of our own wicked vices we need them. 

I am not in a ****ing match about who loves horses more. I could care less what you or anyone on here thinks of me. That is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that PEOPLE are responsible for this mess. And I am a firm believer if you make a mess you clean it up...not sweep it under the rug and hope it will go away, or forget it's there because it is outta sight outta mind. Every day they are being shipped off and tortured till dead. Everyday that this happens is yet another testimony to the heartlessness of man. Because I know that there is no way in hell I could stand next to that kill box and watch that with my own eyes and see that animals agony and suffering in it's eyes and think for a moment that it was necessary or validated. No way. It is easy when it is a thousand miles away to forget what they are going through. It is easy to say it is "necessary" to keep the market up. PEOPLE are broke. Killing horses in the US is not going to fix this problem. 

*As for the excuse that rescues are full. That is NOT true. The kill buyers are outbidding the rescues every single week at these auctions. They do have places to go and there they would be cared for and rehabed or put down humanely. That excuse is very invalid. There are thousands of fosters working with these rescues. Space to place them is NOT an issue. *


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## smrobs

I'll ask again, where do you expect the money to come from to create jobs for people to go around searching for neglected and starved horses?

Where do you expect the money to come from to care for these horses, feed them, and if necessary, put them down and dispose of the body?

All of the rescues I've looked at in my area are chock full and, yes, they are getting outbid by the meat buyer, but guess what, rescues don't have unlimited funds. 

Are you willing to provide _every_ rescue ample cash to outbid the meat man on _every_ horse? 

Are you willing to donate all your _own_ money so that they can care for crippled or dangerous horses that have no purpose in life?

Are you going to buy them land so that they'll have enough land to turn the horses out?

Or, better yet, why not just start a rescue of your own?

After all, spending $300+ per ton for hay isn't all that much money, right?

And all vets and farriers and trainers are nice enough to come and care for the horses for free just because they're in a rescue, right?

I'm sure that there are no other considerations for rescues, like making sure the water bill gets paid or the electric bill or the vet bill or the feed bill or the farrier bill. After all, all those things _pale_ in comparison to spending all their budget to outbid the meat man on more horses. What could possibly go wrong if they just keep buying, right?

Never mind that I know 2 different "rescues" in my area that started up before the recession. Each had the idea of "OMG, save the hoorsssiiiesss", so they went and bought 15-25 auction culls. They brought them home and turned them out but, oops, the horses aren't trained. 

"Well, we can't rehome untrained horses but I can't afford a trainer right now because I just spent all my money to save these lovely but untouchable horses. After all, even the crappiest trainer charges $400 a month for each horse. I'll start saving up so that I can start sending them one at a time."

Well, time rocked on and they kept saving but never got around to sending the horses to a trainer because something always came up; a vet bill for colic or a mystery lameness, the truck broke down, the bearings on the trailer need re-packed, etc. 

Now, 2-3 years later, a massive drought hits the south and hay prices more than double. Where they were paying $400 a month for hay and barely getting by, now they have to cover a hay cost of $1000+. They are scrambling around looking for people to "donate" hay or pasture land for the poor little horsies. Guess what, the hay I buy goes to feed the horses that I've got and all the pasture land got cooked last summer so there is no grass..._anywhere_.

They cannot find anyone to take even a single horse because nobody can afford the feed bill and/or they already have as many horses as they can maintain care for.

Forget de-worming and vet/farrier care, they are pooling every penny they have to try to buy crappy hay wherever they can find it.

So, now, those horses are starving and _nobody_ can help. The "rescues" refuse to take them back to auction because they _might_ go to slaughter but don't worry, I'm sure the horses much prefer being left to stand out in the back pasture and spend the next 4-5 months starving to death :?.


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## herdbound

smrobs I spent my summer working pro-bono for a rescue doing just that...working with horses getting them broke so they could get adopted. I am for euthanizing horses. I am for humanely putting horses down. The argument I get on that is well "so and so can't afford to have the horse put down"...This is something that really chaps my rear..because it is these people that shouldn't own horses AND if there were stronger reprecussions for being a crappy owner people may think twice about taking on a horse they have no way to care for....thats all I am asking that we start HOLDING PEOPLE ACCOUNTABLE...and everyone acts like I am insane for saying that. I think that IF we put our heads together we could ALL come up with a reasonable and humane solution to this problem that everyone, including horses could live with.

ALL I WANT:

EDUCATION: I want people to understand BEFORE they get a horse what it REALLY costs to care for one properly so people don't end up with a pasture full of free horses they have no funds to get through winter. I want them to understand the numbers involved in adding more foals to the backyard breeding problem. That a horse lives for 30+ years and long after the "ah shucks aint that a pretty foal newness" wears off someone has to feed it, water it, and care for it for another 29 years. 

ACCOUNTABILITY: The market IS down so even if you look at them as just a commodity why bring massive amounts of new "product" out when the price is down and the only buyers are people getting them for meat really when they are useless to your sport or interest. WHY???? It's just like puppy mills keep pumping out these puppies when the pounds are over flowing. As human beings who are responsible for the animals we bring into the world we need to have some accountability for what we are doing. As I stated before it is too easy to just keep breeding for these 2 & 3 year olds that run fast and as soon as they slow down they get a sticker on the butt and get butchered if all you have to do is make a phone call....what if you couldn't make that phone call...then you have to reevaluate your practices...you have to manage your own numbers...there isn't someone else doing your dirty work. Your mess is yours to clean up. 

COMPASSION: Why is it so much to ask for compassion towards these animals. They live a life of service to the humans that bring them into the world. They make them money, they bring them fame, they do everything we ask of them why is it so hard to just allow them a death with dignity and free from pain. IF they must be butchered why can't it be done in a way that is designed to cull horses instead of using cattle equipment? Why are they sticking cattle prods up there butts and shocking them to get them up when they are too weak and too badly beaten down to walk to the kill box? Why? Why are the butchered alive at times? Why do these people who have been trained on where to shoot them constantly botching this simple operation? I think in a way this sort of profession attracts a certain type of individual who may actually take pleasure in inflicting pain upon the animals he is disposing of. WHY CAN'T WE PROVIDE THEM WITH A COMPASSIONATE END TO A LIFE LIVED IN SERVICE?

I can't save them all at this time no. I do wish I could. I understand that there has to be culling involved in getting the numbers under control BUT no matter how many die or in what manner they die somebody out there is bringing more into the world to take their spot...why?????? I want that part to be slowed down and controled.


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## smrobs

Okay, so who takes responsibility for the horses already out there? I don't have room for any more and if I took more, the care on all of them would suffer.

How many more will you take? How many more _can_ you take and still maintain care in all circumstances?

The simple fact of the matter is, there are too many horses right now and not nearly enough homes. People who could have afforded to keep 5-10 a few years ago now struggle to take care of 1 or 2.

There simply aren't enough people out there that are willing or able to take care of unwanted horses. What is your solution to that? Force them on people? Have the government step in and say "No, you cannot breed another horse for X amount of years, but in place of the foals you _won't_ be having, here are 120 crippled, sick, and untrained grade horses to care for"?

I am 1000% for people being responsible breeders, whether they are breeding their beloved backyard mare or breeding show quality horses. BUT, people _aren't_ responsible and that isn't going to change anytime soon. The government cannot even stop parents from abusing, neglecting, or abandoning their own children, do you really think that they can just swoop in and enforce laws that would make people be responsible about breeding and caring for their horses? It's _not_ going to happen and to believe it _could_ is naive.

I do what I can by trying to educate people on this board that ask "I loveee my mare, she's a sweet horse when she's not bucking me off or trying to bite, which of these colorful, $100 studs would make the most bootifulll babbie???"

You can go and read for yourself what responses they give when they are told that they really shouldn't breed a horse like that and that they can go and buy a weanling for less than a tank of gas. They get huffy because they want a "bootifull babbbyyyee" and nobody is blowing rainbows up their ***. They don't want to listen and they go ahead and breed their mare to some fugly *** stud anyway. The government isn't going to stop stupidity like that, even if they _wanted_ to try (which, by the way, they have much larger concerns than that:?).

I tried to tell them, what else, exactly, am I supposed to do, drive to their house and spay their mare or geld their stud in the middle of the night? Do you really think the government is going to pay someone to do that or to enforce the laws even if they did get made (which, by the way, will never happen because there are larger concerns in this country)?

I take care of the horses I've got in my own pasture and, for the ones I plan to sell in the future, make sure that they get good solid training that will give them the best possible chance.

You also seem to assume that chemical euthanasia is the most compassionate ending a horse could have. Apparently you've never seen one go wrong? I have. It's ugly and painful and horrible to watch. Chemical euthanasia is no more kind than a bullet or captive bolt gun to the head. The only difference is that the bullet or bolt does not poison the meat.

As for the disposal of the body, what is so wrong with using the parts of the body to feed other animals in the animal kingdom including zoo animals and even humans if they need meat. If they are chemically euthanized, then the only options are rendering or burying. 

Rendering burns the body and releases toxins and pollution into the atmosphere. I guess you don't care about the long term care of our planet.

Burying the body is only permitted in certain parts of the country that are far enough off the water table and only then if the individual state/city ordinances permit it. If a horse carcass that has been chemically euthed is buried too close to the groundwater runoff or the aquifers, then the poisons released from their bodies during decomp seep into the water supply and will poison other animals and humans. But, hey, I guess that's one way of controlling the population:?.

We had this happen a few years ago here. One of the Braum's dairy farms was burying their dead cattle too close to a creek and the runoff caused by the decomposing bodies poisoned the water. There were several farmers downriver that lost cattle to the poison in the creek.

To assume that I am uncaring or lacking compassion for horses because I believe there is _realistically_ not another option really says a lot about how you think.


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## smrobs

Oh, and one other thing I thought of. Who exactly is supposed to stop breeding to make the problem go away? Everyone?

I know some breeders (yes, who are still breeding :shock that breed very nice, registered,well conformed, working quality Quarter Horses that they have a good market for. I train most of their colts for them and they are some really super nice horses with great athleticism and ability.

Is it their responsibility to stop breeding good horses because some asshat down the road from me can't seem to keep his ugly, unregistered, inbred AraQuarterLoosa stud out of his herd of ugly, unregistered, inbred PintoPercheMorgan mares?

If the good, responsible breeders stop breeding to "help the problem" but the crappy asshat breeders just keep on going like they would _anyway_, how does that help anyone? All that would accomplish would be to create a market full of really sh**ty horses :?.


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## FlyGap

How funny, that would make a Quaraoosinerchorgan! Terrible cross if I say so!

The answer from the anti's would probably be that everyone would need breeding or ownership permits to keep stupids from doing such a thing. Not an option. I don't need to have another piece of "payper" saying I can do something.
Great points on all the above as usual Smrobs.


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## herdbound

No. I understand everything that everyone wrote. And I do know that it is a terrible mess that isn't going to be cleaned up overnight. I think the thing that just really hurts me is that I feel like we have just failed these animals so badly and it is they who do the suffering for our bad decisions. I mean it breaks my heart that we have done this too them. I wish we could find a solution and fix it...thats all.  Its just sad to me.


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## kevinshorses

My grandpa used to say that unless you have a frog in your pocket you should be careful about using the word "we".


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## herdbound

When I say "we" I refer to the horse enthusiasts as a whole group. In Native American thinking what I do to a blade of grass I have done to you Kevin. That "WE" are all entangled in the web of life...no one thing greater than another.


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## kevinshorses

Well I'm not a horse enthusiast or an indian so when you use the word we you should have a fropg in your pocket or I may take issue.


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## faye

Please do not include me in your "we" I want nothing to do with those who would band slaughter. I am passionate about horses, I regularly take on horses that proffessionals have written off, however I am for humane slaughter and transport on the hook not the hoof. I believe those who are against horse slaughter are advocating cruelty to horses.


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## Cherie

I am not only a 'horse enthusiast' but a horse lover and am very passionate about their care and welfare. I have probably 'saved' more horses than you have ridden.

That is WHY I believe in smaller, well-run inspected slaughter houses located in many different areas right here in the US.

That is WHY I think the closing of American processing plants was the worst thing that ever happened for horse welfare. They needed to be better run and they needed to be in the country and not urban areas, but I don't think anyone can dispute that horse care and welfare has gone down (with the lost value) and neglect and abuse has increased with the longer trips and lack of American over-sight.

I see that you are now an expert on Indians as well as on training and horse breeding and all other aspects of the 'business' you want no part of. 

I could probably tell you a thing or two about them too -- since I have been married to one for 31 years. Or maybe I should tell him he has to go to you to know what and how he thinks.


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## herdbound

I am not an expert on indians but I am proud to have Native American blood in my veins. My ethnicity is not the issue here. You all want this ideal american slaughterhouse system BUT where is it at? It doesn't exist and as I stated earlier they are having a hard time finding people to invest in it because the last ones as businesses failed. Are they gonna just open up over night? no. Hence many more animals will be sent to Mexico & Canada and many more animals will die in miserable inhumane ways. Do I support that? No. As it is right now, what IS on the table, I am 100% against. 

You may attack me, think I am a fanatacil nut, lump me in with PETA or whatever else makes you feel better. I am not effected by that in the slightest. I love horses. I love them enough to understand that as with any animal there is a time to die. The problem I have with them being culled is not that they are being culled...it is the manner in which they are being put down and the reasons many of them are meeting an untimely death. It is GREED that sends many of them there and greed is a human vice. It is as a "decent human being" that sometimes we must swallow our pride and say is it "right" to do this. In my opinion it is not right to continue to breed massive amounts of horses if they are only being born to die. What is the sense in that?

Would I be for slaughter IF the animals were being put down in a "kosher" way...meaning with little to no suffering...yes. IF that slaughter was necessary and justified sure. I am not a selfish human being, I understand that it is never going to be a time when there are loving homes for every horse in the US. I am a realist on that. I just know enough about horses to know that at the time these animals are being slaughtered they are being pushed into these boxes that are NOT designed for them, they are terrified out of their minds from the sights and smells that surround them, and the person delivering the final blows is doing it in a way that is not compassionate and uneccessarily brutal. You can kill a horse in a compassionate quick and effecient way. It doesn't take any more time or energy to do it correctly and humanely. Why they CHOOSE to be so abusive and brutal I have no idea...other than I think they like being sadistic to these animals. Every living creature deserves some respect...be it a horse, a tree, a human. They do deserve to be treated humanely and with compassion. That is ALL I ask for and I am continually attacked because I just love horses and the thought of them going through this tremendous suffering breaks my heart. I am a "terroristic, nut job" because I cannot stomach the thought of what is going on to thousands of them.


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## Cherie

It may interest you to know that there are several investors looking into building new processing plants (with video surveillance and employee oversight) as we speak. 

It might also interest you to know that several Indian Tribes are looking into building processing plants on sovereign tribal land -- not subject to US laws and legislation. 

It might also interest you to know that unless the NAFTA free trade agreements are completely rescinded or rewritten, transport of horses to Mexico or Canada will never be stopped by new laws. Any restrictions will be struck down by the courts.

Just like you cannot stop huge numbers of unwanted horses from existing no matter how few or how many of them are being bred, you cannot stop many of them needing some place to go when they become unwanted.

You cannot take away private ownership of livestock without the US becoming a communist country that does not let people 'own' livestock. 

As for being the result of greed -- well it just isn't. No one gets rich selling horses that they have to sell because they have no use for them. No one breeds mares in this country with the slaughter market in mind. They would lose their *** because you can raise 3 or 4 steers for what you can raise on horse and the steer is worth more in the end. This fact just does not support anything you say. (Just more animal rights lies.)

The reason I lump all animal rights nuts into one basket is that many groups of them are terrorists. They have committed numerous acts of arson and terrorism. The FBI has them on 'watch lists' because of their terrorist activity -- and they belong there.

I am all for animal welfare and humane treatment of all livestock and other animals. I never would want to be labeled an 'animal rights activist'. They lose ALL credibility with most of us 'real' horse enthusiasts. The ones that aren't out committing acts of terrorism are spreading lies and propaganda as truth.


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## herdbound

I am aware of the NCAI's stance on horse slaughter. I wouldn't care if I was the only human being in the US that felt this practice was wrong. In my heart I cannot condone animal abuse, neglect, or exploitation for any reason, of beings that are solely dependant on us as humans to provide for them and have their best interests at heart. I would stand alone in my beliefs if need be. But that doesn't make it right either. Everything Hitler did in Germany was legal at the time it was done...didn't make the suffering any less.


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## faye

herdbound, thats just the thing you ARE advocating animal cruelty because you would rather them endure horrific long journeys out of the country rather then shorter ones to local more regulated slaughter houses. 

it is a prooven fact that short journeys to highly regulated slaughter houses cause LESS suffering than 1000mile journeys to unregulated ones. Animal rights activists like you live in a dream world where if you ban nice safe local slaughter it all stops happening. 

Real Life shows that it just goes elsewhere or underground and causes more suffering.

It is like abortion, like it or not it happens for various reasons. Some countries have banned it so it has gone underground, backstreet clinics with no controls that cause the suffering and death of many women. if they can afford it the women go abroad, far from the comfort of thier familys and far from help if it goes wrong. It is far safer to have it regulated and in safe clean medical clinics, in the end it results in less deaths, less distress and less suffering 

If you realy cared about horse suffering you would not be campaignning against horse slaughter, you would be campaigning against long transport, unregulated and inhumane slaughter. All the animal rights activists like you have managed to do is send it underground or to anouther country where suffering cannot be controled.


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## herdbound

herdbound said:


> Would I be for slaughter IF the animals were being put down in a "kosher" way...meaning with little to no suffering...yes. IF that slaughter was necessary and justified sure. I am not a selfish human being, I understand that it is never going to be a time when there are loving homes for every horse in the US. I am a realist on that. I just know enough about horses to know that at the time these animals are being slaughtered they are being pushed into these boxes that are NOT designed for them, they are terrified out of their minds from the sights and smells that surround them, and the person delivering the final blows is doing it in a way that is not compassionate and uneccessarily brutal. You can kill a horse in a compassionate quick and effecient way. It doesn't take any more time or energy to do it correctly and humanely. Why they CHOOSE to be so abusive and brutal I have no idea...other than I think they like being sadistic to these animals. Every living creature deserves some respect...be it a horse, a tree, a human. They do deserve to be treated humanely and with compassion. That is ALL I ask for and I am continually attacked because I just love horses and the thought of them going through this tremendous suffering breaks my heart. I am a "terroristic, nut job" because I cannot stomach the thought of what is going on to thousands of them.


Faye did you miss what I wrote? Does that say I am against slaughter if it is done in a humane way? No. It says I understand that at times it is neccessary ALL I ask is that it is humanely carried out. It does not cost any more money, or time, or energy to correctly & humanely kill a horse. I am NOT an animal rights activist. I am NOT associated with PETA or the HSUS. I am just a woman who wishes that people would consider a compassionate ending to the animals life. Done with respect and caring for the life it is giving. That is all.


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## faye

You are an animal rights activist, you don't have to be associated with PETA to be one, your whole attitude to this matter screams animal rights activist.

I've worked in an abattoir engaged in the slaughter of beef cattle and I have taken horses to our local abattoir that deals with horses. Your facts are somewhat skewed by watching far too many PETA videos on youtube. They shoot many horses and every one of them is delt with quietly, humanely and in facilities designed for horses. They stand quietly in the stalls outside waiting and eating hay. Not one of them was distressed in any way and the abattoir were happy to let you watch the horse go through if you felt you needed to (provided you didnt get in the way).

You are not thinking what is the best solution to a bad problem in the real world, you are in lala land where everything is perfect. Heres a reality check for you, The world is not perfect!!!


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## herdbound

The world is not perfect. Nope. But I refuse to let the world dictate to me what I know in my heart is wrong. Causing suffering to another living being for any reason purposely is wrong in my book. Debating whether I am an animal rights activist or whatever is not going to happen because it is a waste of time. I am an "all living creatures" activist I guess only by the way that I feel living creatures deserve to be dealt with humanely and respectfully. So be it...so it is...I am off to work with my horses...I have said what I needed to say.


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## Druydess

herdbound said:


> I am aware of the NCAI's stance on horse slaughter. I wouldn't care if I was the only human being in the US that felt this practice was wrong. In my heart I cannot condone animal abuse, neglect, or exploitation for any reason, of beings that are solely dependant on us as humans to provide for them and have their best interests at heart. I would stand alone in my beliefs if need be. But that doesn't make it right either. Everything Hitler did in Germany was legal at the time it was done...didn't make the suffering any less.


Well said. And horses DO endure horrific long journeys while in the US. I keep reading that somehow this didn't/wouldn't happen if slaughter was legal. The US IS after all, 3000 miles long. It's not as if they take a cab around the corner. They were still shipped out of the country while it was legal, so this really is a moot point.
It's inhumane, plain and simple. Condoning slaughter with its inhumanity in inhuman.


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## Missy May

Well, in a perfect world I would be anti-slaughter to the end. It is more complicated than "yes or no". There is the "human factor". I have seen perfectly healthy horses sold on the hoof for scratch. What do you do? Buy them all? Its wrong. In fact, I saved a very healthy filly from going to "the sale". A man I new in passing, that trained for a very prestigious barn, and I met one day on the road-side. He was taking a perfectly beautiful filly to the nearest "stockyard" sale. This meant, if she were really lucky...some one would buy her, otherwise..slaughter. I wanted a baby at the time. I got up on the side of his trailer and kept looking at her. I just couldn't stand the idea. HE had pushed this innocent very well bred babe over her limits, injured her to the point she could never compete.... so she goes to the "sale yard"??? He asked if I were interested, as I am sure he could tell I was not dealing with the "idea" to well....and it was a long shot that would save him a long trip. I asked if I could use her as a brood mare, own the baby, and see if someone would buy her from there? Deal, I got her, had her bred...and found a buyer for her before my colt was born (he took possession after my colt was weaned). She was a fantastic mother even though she wasn't fully mature, and had outstanding bloodlines. SO....the human factor cannot be ignored. This is not an "isolated occurance". There is no law against it.

I do not like government regulation...but I would be pro-slaughter IF, and only IF a "license" were required to breed horses, and a clear and acceptable reason had to be given for each conception, regardless of AI or natural, and a clear reason for putting a horse in a livestock auction where slaugher "buyers" are present had to be given, and recorded, and available for anyone to see under the name of the current owner. If its so "shameless", this shouldn't be "intrusive". A lot of horses are bred that shouldn't be, they have no papers, they have huge confirmation deficits, etc.,. Is this the resulting "undesirable" offspring's fault? Horses should not pay for irresponsible human behavior. It is a reflection on our society to allow willy nilly breeding, and/or unethical training techniques or poor care that results in slaughter. 

As far as "old" horses go - I can't imagine what kind of human being would send their best friend to slaughter. For heaven sakes! I would think euthanization would be the only consideration.

But then, what do you do with all of the "unwanted" horses that currently exist as a result of irresponsible human behavior? I don't know the answer, it is too grizzly to think about. Remind people, I guess...that w/o the horse this country and most others would not exists as we know them or at all...and history would be so different, in fact, it is highly likely most of us wouldn't even have been born. Perhaps awareness would help with forming reasonable and "workable" regulations such as I mentioned.


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## kevinshorses

So you would sacrifice the freedom of every person in this country so that you could ease your guilt about something you're probably not going to do anyway. You can leave me out of your socialist utopia. I deal with my guilt right along with my freedom. I hate that there are a large group of people that are so mealy-mouthed that they want the government to salve every one of thier problems and pass laws about every thing that offends thier delicate sensibilities. I pray that these kind of people are not the majority in this country yet.

I don't like the way people under the age of 20 dress but I certainly don't want to pass a national dress code.


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## Missy May

kevinshorses said:


> So you would sacrifice the freedom of every person in this country so that you could ease your guilt about something you're probably not going to do anyway. You can leave me out of your socialist utopia. I deal with my guilt right along with my freedom. I hate that there are a large group of people that are so mealy-mouthed that they want the government to salve every one of thier problems and pass laws about every thing that offends thier delicate sensibilities. I pray that these kind of people are not the majority in this country yet.
> 
> I don't like the way people under the age of 20 dress but I certainly don't want to pass a national dress code.


Freedom is not doing what you want no matter how it effects others. In fact, w/o laws you would have no "freedoms". And, notice our "freedoms" don't include slaughtering unwanted people. Socialism is not ordinarily associated with laws that protect animals, by the way. In fact, communist and "socialist" (ordinarily a disguise for communism) countries are among the greatest animal cruelty offenders.


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## kevinshorses

Part of freedom is the freedom to make poor choices. If I breed crappy horses and sell them for meat it doesn't directly effect you or your horses. Socialism and communism are about control. The government doesn't much care what they control so long as they get as much as possible. Our freedoms protect us from the slaughtering of unwanted people. As our freedoms are erroded and our constitution is trampled we come closer to the type of government that would alloow the slaughter of "unwanted" people. Cambodia, Russia, China most of South America at one time or another have all fallen prey to progressivism in the name of security.


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## Missy May

kevinshorses said:


> Part of freedom is the freedom to make poor choices. If I breed crappy horses and sell them for meat it doesn't directly effect you or your horses. Socialism and communism are about control. The government doesn't much care what they control so long as they get as much as possible. Our freedoms protect us from the slaughtering of unwanted people. As our freedoms are erroded and our constitution is trampled we come closer to the type of government that would alloow the slaughter of "unwanted" people. Cambodia, Russia, China most of South America at one time or another have all fallen prey to progressivism in the name of security.


I agree with you IF your poor choice affects you. If you want to do herion, I say...have at it...it is you that will be affected....and if you suffer, the state has no right to take property from anyone to assist you. However, if you want to affect an innocent animal, no - the state has a moral and ethical obligation to step in. If someone in the next state beats their child to near death, it directly affects me and my children none at all....but it should be and is illegal. Furthermore, when the constitution was written, horses were very valuable and not bred willy nilly. Machinery changed that. Machinery can easily make you - dead weight, too. Playing God is not a freedom I can find in the constitution....in fact, it guarantees me freedom from those that want to play God. I simply feel the basic rights should be extended to horses. That hardly makes me socialist, something I have never been accused of in my life. But, hey, there is always a first time.


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## herdbound

Slaughter is just a symptom of the underlying disease. Curing that "disease" is the only way to rid the symptom.


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## faye

Unfortunatly that disease is not curable unless you want to kill the patient, therefore you must use pallative care instead.


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## herdbound

I don't know who the patient is...but ending horse slaughter wouldn't kill me at all. I wouldn't be effected by it. I mean I never have had to take a horse to auction...those services are not needed at this farm. When a horse here has reached it's end I call the vet and have a hole dug at the point and it is put down and buried with dignity. The patients that would die are those that use this as a way to dump the undesireable that went from being an asset to a liability.


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## faye

Ending all horse slaughter would kill the entire equine industry, if there is nowhere for unwanted horses to go then we will get horses on street corners starving to death, then there realy will be uproar from the animal rights activists and then no one will be allowed to own horses.
Dangerous horses, horses with serious issues etc people are not going to pay for them to be pts. the £300 needed to have a horse pts by a vet and the the £500 minimum needed for removal (you are not allowed to bury horses here) mean that it costs at least £800 to have a horse disposed of. 
£800 will feed a family of 4 for 4 months if they are careful. It is 2 months of mortgage payments for a lot of people!

I personaly have taken 1 horse to the meat man and sent anouther to the local hunt. 
The one that went to the meat man was out to kill you, it reared, bit, came at you in the field or the stable, put 6 very experianced horse people in hospital for significant amounts of time (shortest being 6 weeks). You couldnt get near the **** thing. We bought it at an auction and it was a beautiful first pony untill the drugs wore off. He was herded onto a horse lorry, unloaded straight into the killing pen and shot. I regained £300 of the £800 I paid for this horse and better I didnt pass this horse on so that it could kill someone.

The one that went to the hunt was an old hunter who had been caught in a stable fire, he became nasty and associated people with pain nd distress. we tried for many years to fix him mentaly but it came to a head one day when he came over a stable door, picked a girl up by the side of her face, pulled her back into the stable and essentialy started savaging her. she lost the sight in her left eye and her ear on the left side she also has horrific scars on the left side of her face.
Now if you managed to get a bridle on this horse without getting killed he turned into something just about handleable but he couldnt be used for anything due to his injuries. He couldnt be turned away in a field as here in the UK fields are not that far from people and he was a danger to anyone who even got remotely close to the field gate (and people will always pet the pretty horses even if you have signs up).
So he went to the hunt yard, he was loaded into a trailer, taken to the hunt yard (where all the hounds where) and as soon as he heard the hounds he got very very excited, obviously thought he was going hunting (that used to be his job and he loved it). One quick humane bullet later he was dead and then he was fed to the hounds. only cost me the fuel to get to the hunt yard and a very very peaceful end for the horse.

When stan died (found dead in the field) it cost me £500 to have him taken away (I was on a livery yard so not able to bury)

When Rian was PTS at our house it cost £300, we have buried him in the field but have done so totaly illegaly and could face large fines if the council find out.

Not everyone has the facilities or ability to bury a horse and not everyone can afford to plow that sort of money into having a horse PTS when the horse could bring in that little bit more money needed to keep you afloat and able to eat yourself.


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## herdbound

Horses don't hit the ground monsters UNLESS they have something happen like being left in the sack to long ect to become oxygen deprived. The horses of which you just described have been either handled poorly or abused into a state of making them "nutso"....humans failed them. The best thing for a vicious horse is either send it to a trainer willing to risk their own life in fixing it or euthanasia...I prefer the latter because I am logical...if it's that bad it should just be put down to protect people. In ALLLLLL the many many horses I have seen or worked with in my life I can not recollect but 1 that would have been considered "Vicious" . They are NOT the norm and there is far to little of them to constitute having slaughter to rid us of them. A bullet or a needle could fix that issue right at home. It is unfortunate that people were harmed by these animals in your above post. Very unfortunate. It seems though the injuries could have been avoided had these animals had responsible owners who put them down as soon as the issues started to arise. As for lack of money in the end to have it put down. A bullet costs about .40 and done correctly can be as pain free and instantaneous as chemical euthanasia. The making a few bucks part bothers me. I mean I have had hard times but I have never resorted to doing things that would harm other beings to make some cash. Some things are worth more to me than money. Knowing I did the right thing by the animal would not only be worth a couple hundred bucks, the sleep I would get at night not thinking about the poor thing being stabbed or chained up or shot numerous times in the head with a bolt gun would also be worth the money.

This just boils down to whats inside of you. What your moral and ethical fiber is. Are you willing to make the sacrifice or do you want others to make it for you. The horses you have did not ask to be yours, you chose them. People should realize that it does take a lot of money to care for them and part of caring for them is preparing for the end of life issues. I do have places to bury them here. I live on a 40 acre farm. If I lived in a place where I couldn't keep horses properly I wouldn't. I know most places here in the US will accept horses at the landfill...here it costs 15.00 to take it there. I like tigers but I shouldn't own one. I have no means by which to properly take care of it. It's called responsibility. Being responsible for YOUR decisions. I have a hard time accepting the fact that these animals are paying for our poor decisions...from bringing them into the world, to neglecting them and abusing them, to turning them into monsters, and in the end it is their head that has the cold barrel of a bolt gun stuck against it....


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## faye

My moral and ethical fibre is just fine thanks, I live in the real world where people have to make hard decisions every day. I've made hard decisions and decisions that were best for both the horse and the people around them. The money I got out of sending the horse for slaughter then went back into buying anouther rescue which I wouldnt have been able to do if I had him PTS at home. I also doubt that without the expert handlers from the slaughter plant that we would have been able to have the horse PTS at all as no one was willing to get anywhere near him. I had some of the best trainers of problem horses in the UK to see him I had Richard maxwell, kelly marks and even monty roberts himself (on his UK tour) have a look at the horse and tell me there was no fixing him

Some horses are born nasty, some are just nasty thgouh no fault of the owners. I've known an 8 month old colt that killed sheep and came at people. He was gelded shortly there after and still kept attacking people. He never did come right. I've known a pony that was sweet as anything one minute and the next was a raving lunatic out to do damage with no apparent reason. I've known the homes these ponies were in since birth and both of them are very experianced kind horse people who have raise many many childrens ponies over the years.

Horses cannot go into land fill here, they must be cremated or rendered both of which have costs attached.

You send them to the hunt and its a quiet death the animal then doesnt have to be rendered and it doesnt cost more. 

I also personaly think that when there are so many starving people in the world it is moraly wrong to waste good meat.

I wouldnt keep a tiger myself not because I don't have the facilities (I could build them quite easily) but because I moraly object to haveing tigers in private ownership as a status symbol when they are endangered in the wild. I've no problem with breeding programs at zoos but I do have issue with private owners.

BTW I've had horses PTS by captive bolt at home. It does not take multiple hits to kill them and is an extremely humane way to have a horse PTS. The abattoir I worked in used captive bolts as well. Cattle have thicker skulls than horses and is still only took 1 bolt to kill the animal.


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## herdbound

To each his own. If you can sleep at night thats all that matters. I sleep quite nicely knowing that I have never done this...never will do this...and no matter what happens in my life will never NEED to do this. I will also never breed ANY of our mares. I WILL take care of them for as long as they live and when the time comes I WILL have them put down here at this farm and they will be buried at the point just like the others who we have loved. RESPECTFULLY.

IF there should come a day when I can no longer afford to keep my horses or I physically unable to keep my horses...they will be placed long before the need is in dire emergency BECAUSE I AM RESPONSIBLE. I will NOT wait till the last moment after the horse has dropped several hundred pounds to realize that I can't feed it. I will not wait till it is sick to realize I cannot afford the vet. These are all promises I have made to these animals BEFORE I made the commitment and signed on the dotted line. They give me their all...and I am gonna give them mine.


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## faye

and just where are you thinking of placing these horses? rescues are full and turning animals away and if you sell the horse then you lose all control over it. It may well end up on the meat wagon anyway or it could go lame a day after the new owner buys it and be stuck in a paddock to starve to death.

Never say never, statisticly most people are less then 6 months from living on the bread line. i went from a £20K a year job with massive extras (company car, accomodation paid for bonuses etc) to living on benefits and struggling to feed myself in less than 2 months. you are either extremely naive or a multibillionaire (mind you in the 1920 recession the billionaires went under so i'm not sure that they are safe since the world is headed for a double dip ressesion akin to the 1920's!).

I sleep fine at night knowing that the horses I have sent to slaughter are no longer in any sort of pain (mental or physical) are no longer a threat to people and that the money I saved or the money I gained from their slaughter has gone into helping other horses. Because I took the responsibility to ship them to LOCAL abattoirs they did not suffer long journeys in over cramped facilities, because I could choose which abattor to use and there are enough in the UK to be fairly local i could garentee the horses did not suffer. i'm not sure I could sleep if I were in your position though since you Advocate animal cruelty and horrificly long journeys in cramped conditions rather than shorter more local ones to highly regulated abattoirs that can be monitored

Polititians in the US are finaly waking up to the fact that the ban actualy caused more suffering then it prevented.


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## herdbound

Since you are in the UK...why are you so concerned about what happens to America's horses? To me as an American who lives in a country built and forged on the backs of these animals...I take pride in protecting them. The West was settled on horseback. To me and to you...a horse may mean a totally different thing. To me they are something to be admired for the hundreds of years of service they have provided us here in the US. And since you are in the UK, what do our horses have to do with you. You can not vote on any of this legislation, these laws do not pertain to you, and our horses are not somehow swimming across the great pond to invade your shores...so really what do American horses have to do with you?


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## Druydess

To the fallacy that captive bolt is painless and humane:


Use of the captive bolt causes extreme pain.
In a study conducted at Hanover University, EEG and ECG recordings were taken on all animals to measure the condition of the brain and heart during the course of slaughter and stunning. EEG readings showed that although the animals were apparently unconscious soon after stunning with the penetrating captive bolt, they were experiencing severe pain immediately after stunning.

(Source: Why Islamic method of Slaughtering animals is better? A scientific reason )

Horses regain consciousness approximately 30 seconds after the captive bolt is applied.

Due to the inherent differences in skull structures of bovines and equines, each species reacts to the captive bolt differently. The brain of an equine is further back in the skull compared to a bovine. The equines regain consciousness and are not insensible to pain shortly after they are shackled and hoisted. Therefore, they are very much aware of being butchered alive.

(Source: Dr. Lester Friedlander, DVM and former Chief USDA Inspector.)

USE OF THE 'PENETRATING CAPTIVE BOLT'


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## smrobs

Oh, how very childish.

Is the care and welfare and future of horsekind now only an American problem? Others in the world are not allowed to have an opinion? Have you not learned yet that the entire world is a symbiotic relationship and whever happens to the economy of one country can effect many others, especially when the economy in question is one as wide reaching and well known as ours?

Who are you to tell someone that they are not allowed to have an opinion?

Of course, this must mean that you have absolutely zero opinion about anything that happens in any other country in the world, correct? How do you feel about bullfighting in Spain or the gauchos in Argentina? Oh, wait, that happens in another country so if you have an opinion at all, that would make you a hypocrit.


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## herdbound

smrobs I am not being childish...I am asking a question...that is all. I am wondering why our horses being sent to slaughter in Mexico & Canada are of concern to someone thousands of miles away and has no say over the situation what-so-ever. It's a known fact that in most every other place in the world this practice is completely legit, socially acceptable, and horses are consumed daily with a legal support. In America this is NOT the case. We are coming at this matter with totally different cultural bias. I have never went to a resteraunt that serves horse steaks, but as you know in many other cultures that is just status quo' so maybe Faye has a different outlook on the matter due to in her country this is accepted...thats all I am saying. In America we don't eat horses...as far as the rest of the worlds problems...not my concern. I am not going to Europe and telling them not to eat horsemeat. I am more concerned with what is going on here....in America.

I would never go to India & eat a cheeseburger...thats their cultural beliefs....thats their business.


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## smrobs

Okay, you can believe if you want that the government will step in and make everything better, that no horse will ever have to suffer again...in any way...and that unicorns are still running around farting rainbows.

I'm done with this ridiculous thread.


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## FlyGap

Missy May said:


> Well, in a perfect world I would be anti-slaughter to the end. It is more complicated than "yes or no". There is the "human factor". I have seen perfectly healthy horses sold on the hoof for scratch. What do you do? Buy them all? Its wrong. In fact, I saved a very healthy filly from going to "the sale". A man I new in passing, that trained for a very prestigious barn, and I met one day on the road-side. He was taking a perfectly beautiful filly to the nearest "stockyard" sale. This meant, if she were really lucky...some one would buy her, otherwise..slaughter. I wanted a baby at the time. I got up on the side of his trailer and kept looking at her. I just couldn't stand the idea. HE had pushed this innocent very well bred babe over her limits, injured her to the point she could never compete.... so she goes to the "sale yard"??? He asked if I were interested, as I am sure he could tell I was not dealing with the "idea" to well....and it was a long shot that would save him a long trip. I asked if I could use her as a brood mare, own the baby, and see if someone would buy her from there? Deal, I got her, had her bred...and found a buyer for her before my colt was born (he took possession after my colt was weaned). She was a fantastic mother even though she wasn't fully mature, and had outstanding bloodlines. SO....the human factor cannot be ignored. This is not an "isolated occurance". There is no law against it.
> 
> I do not like government regulation...but I would be pro-slaughter IF, and only IF a "license" were required to breed horses, and a clear and acceptable reason had to be given for each conception, regardless of AI or natural, and a clear reason for putting a horse in a livestock auction where slaugher "buyers" are present had to be given, and recorded, and available for anyone to see under the name of the current owner. If its so "shameless", this shouldn't be "intrusive". A lot of horses are bred that shouldn't be, they have no papers, they have huge confirmation deficits, etc.,. Is this the resulting "undesirable" offspring's fault? Horses should not pay for irresponsible human behavior. It is a reflection on our society to allow willy nilly breeding, and/or unethical training techniques or poor care that results in slaughter.
> 
> As far as "old" horses go - I can't imagine what kind of human being would send their best friend to slaughter. For heaven sakes! I would think euthanization would be the only consideration.
> 
> But then, what do you do with all of the "unwanted" horses that currently exist as a result of irresponsible human behavior?


I'm surprised this comment didn't get pointed out. I've been miffed at it all day and had to say something.
1. Bought a broke down filly to BREED. How on earth would a "responsible breeder" justify and take that chance on a filly who broke down at a prestigious barn by a trainer who worked there and pass on her weak genes. How old was the mare? She has no show record, she is injured (lame?), and all she has to go on is her looks and a piece of paper. She has the right to be bred because there was the want of a baby???? Why not go buy one and save the purdy pony from slaughter? Surely there are great prospects in the sale barns. Uninjured, healthy, well handled just like you'd want right?
2. If she was so great and sound and showed so much potential they would have kept her or sold her on as a broodmare.
3. This mare would never pass a breeding inspection if there were stricter breeding "regulations".
4. I understand that a GREAT PROVEN mare can get injured during hard work by a freak accident and then be used as a broodmare. But a horse that couldn't withstand the pressures of being started????

And we need to give props to you for saving HER, to BREED? If you had gone to the sale where all the "GREAT" horses are going to slaughter in MEXICO and saved one of those, shown her, then bred her you may get some props.

As for taking "old" horses to sale they are either broke down, have a health problem, or else have never been trained. Why would you dump a fortune training a 20+ year old horse? Have you done that? 
I have kept an old gelding until the day he died, he had his problems but he was great to have around for beginners and for my daughter. Older horses that are sound can find a home. Taking one to the sale to get market price for them to invest in another horse and make sure he feeds something is not wrong. GOOD HORSES STILL GO FOR GOOD MONEY TO GOOD HOMES, even at sale barns. I know several people who try and purchase horses at the sale and turn them. They will out bid the meat buyer. It's *mostly* crap that goes through. Sure it's not the same in all areas, but around here they get picked up if they are worth a ****. And then returned if they aren't. Yes, some days the right buyer isn't present and a good one goes through, but most people try and sell outright before they even take one to the sale. There is more money in it if they are decent.

Just like said before, responsible breeders have no control of what happens to the animal once it leaves their hands. If the option was for it to starve to death, be mistreated, live it's life in pain, be turned out into the wild I'm sure they would have no problem sending it to the butcher. In those cases.

In my family there have been some horses sent to slaughter. They bred TW's and had some great ones. Their main stud became dangerous and would crash through fencing to kill newborn foals and attacked people. They hauled him to sale back in the day and the VERY WELL taken care of 1,300 lb. horse brought +$1,500 to the meat man. In the bill he was listed as dangerous. I also watched as they took a lovely 18 year old green broke broodmare that was injured in the pasture playing. She was not sound to ride, had lived a wonderful life, was fat and happy, and they took her in as injured where she sold for $800. Then the trip was only a two hour ride and with a quick bolt to the head. THAT is the responsible action of a responsible breeder/horseperson who lived for his horses. To not take advantage of that income is stupid not greedy. He put it back into his horses and continued to give them the best of care.

The only irresponsible behavior comes from the people making horses ride thousands of miles to meet their end. The only irrational greedy behavior comes from people imposing regulations on others. Stupidity comes from those who won't look at the real facts and move past their "values and principles" and ignore and refute actual information provided by people who are far more knowledgeable than they.


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## Missy May

FlyGap said:


> "values and principles" and ignore and refute actual information provided by people who are far more knowledgeable than they.


Yes, I feel enlightened, as the entire scientific community will be when they learn...injuries are always genetic. Who should be called first, the genome project, genentech?


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## goneriding

I see and feel Herds passion, I do. But realistically......there is no way to stop dumbasses from breeding. There is no way to stop ignorant individuals from f€£¥ing up good horses. There is no way to ensure secure homes for horses caught in a nasty drawn out divorce and you are back at square one financially. There is no way to control job loss.....There is no way to control death or permanent disability to the primary source of income of the home. There are so many variables that can affect your current situation that are not factored in your life's plan. Nothing is full proof in life. There has to be options. I personally do not care for slaughter but I do not want my options taken away, one never knows. I would opt for a kill shot, that is just me but you never know. I am an American and I want freedom of choice. We are losing our freedoms. I do not need someone telling me how to wipe my backside.


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## FlyGap

And how would you know that her weaknesses were not due to extreme overbreeding and poor genetics? Did you get her tested, completely rule out genetics by rehabing her and spend a fortune on vetting (x-rays, surgeries, etc?) like a "responsible breeder" would? Of course accidents and injuries do happen.

I wasn't trying to get snippity. Just point out the fact that she would probably not be deemed sound to be bred due to her condition (which I honestly don't know the details of) that would be required by the regulations you support. I'm sure she is a wonderful mare and I'm happy for any horse to find a loving home!


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## faye

herdbound you just showed that you dont give a flying F about horses realy.
I care about the situation in american because it is affecting horses! doesnt matter if those horses are american, british, romanian or freeking martian. They are horses and if you don't care simply because they are in a different country then you dont care at all.

By your reasoning you are not allowed an oppinion on anything beyond the american border so the child in china, nope not allowed an oppinion, mass genocide in the 3rd world, nope no oppinion allowed its not in america. bull fighting where horses end up gutted painfully, nope thats in spain so you are not allowed an oppinion. Horses dieing in egypt due to severe malnutrition, bad saddlery and having thier toungues cut open onadaily basis because the owners know no different, nope no oppinion allowed.

you do realise that the history of the world, not just america was written on horseback, from the mongol armies that swept through europe, to the 100year war, to the english civil war (yes we did have one, then we saw sense), great battles like waterloo and the rest of the napoleonic wars, the 1st and2nd world war. history has always been written on the back of a horse and certainly not just in america.

I am a member of WHW (WORLD horse welfare) and of BROOKE hospital because i care for horses all around the globe and making thier lives and deaths better. Clearly the situation in america has made horse welfare in the states worse so of course it is a concern

Horses are still transported accross europe for slaughter, I want that stopped, I want it done localy and then the meat transorted rather than the live horse. I want to educate people so that they dont use barbed wire for bits like they do in egypt and parts africa, i want it so that working donkies in egypt have tack that doesnt cause open wounds and that they are not overloaded and that they have access to water and shade during the working day.

I have eaten horse meat, and I think you will find herdbound that including the rest of America in your "we" is a bit presumptious. America is supposedly multicultural and i can garentee that some of those cultures eat horse meat whether or not it is legal!


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## AlexS

herdbound said:


> smrobs I am not being childish...I am asking a question...that is all. I am wondering why our horses being sent to slaughter in Mexico & Canada are of concern to someone thousands of miles away and has no say over the situation what-so-ever. It's a known fact that in most every other place in the world this practice is completely legit, socially acceptable, and horses are consumed daily with a legal support. In America this is NOT the case. We are coming at this matter with totally different cultural bias. I have never went to a resteraunt that serves horse steaks, but as you know in many other cultures that is just status quo' so maybe Faye has a different outlook on the matter due to in her country this is accepted...thats all I am saying. In America we don't eat horses...as far as the rest of the worlds problems...not my concern. I am not going to Europe and telling them not to eat horsemeat. I am more concerned with what is going on here....in America.
> 
> I would never go to India & eat a cheeseburger...thats their cultural beliefs....thats their business.


Faye is British. You might want to brush up a little on social norms, as horse meat is not eaten in Britain. 




Anyway, it seems that a plant might be opening soon. (oh wait, I am British too, but I live in America - is it ok for me to have any interest in this?)

horse meat, Mountain Grove, Cabool, Missouri, slaughter, processing plant, human consumption; horse meat plant proposed in Missouri - ky3.com


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## lacyloo

Slaughter is Necessary, Not evil. If horses were marketed like cattle, We wouldn't _See _horses being given away for free. We wouldn't _See_ starving horses. There would be_ No Need_ for rescues... 

Horses are classified as Stock, My feed is Not taxed. I would like to see it kept that way. 

That's just my 2Cents. Disagree if you want but iv personally dealt with the _"Evil horse abusing meat man"._He is no different then you or me. They also have a family to feed. There is no time to sit around and think of ways to intentionally abuse an animal. Yes there is bits of "Evidence". Few and far between because its Not really happening on a large scale as everyone claims. Notice how the clips are always the same and older?


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## herdbound

You keep doing what you do...I'll keep doing what I do. For people that "love" horses sooooo much I find it hard to believe you are delighted by processing plants opening up to slaughter them...I am sure glad you all seem to dislike me...if you were to love me I may be afraid.


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## farmpony84

herdbound said:


> You keep doing what you do...I'll keep doing what I do. For people that "love" horses sooooo much I find it hard to believe you are delighted by processing plants opening up to slaughter them...I am sure glad you all seem to dislike me...if you were to love me I may be afraid.


The thing is. You can't "stop" the slaughter. It is going to happen whether it is done here in the US in a HUMANE way or done in Mexico after the horses have been jam packed into a huge trailer where they are kicked and bitten, knocked down, and trampled on. After they've been driven for hundreds, even thousands of miles with no water and no rest. Then unloaded and sent through a line where they are killed in whatever fashion.

It is important to me that they are slaughter in the most humane way possible. It's an ugly reality that all animals run the risk of facing. There are rescues all over the place and there are many people that do whatever it takes to save them, but without the funding and the resources you just can't save them all. It's not possible. So you do what you can to ensure that they meet their demise with some type of compassion.


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## Missy May

FlyGap said:


> And how would you know that her weaknesses were not due to extreme overbreeding and poor genetics? Did you get her tested, completely rule out genetics by rehabing her and spend a fortune on vetting (x-rays, surgeries, etc?) like a "responsible breeder" would? Of course accidents and injuries do happen.
> 
> I wasn't trying to get snippity. Just point out the fact that she would probably not be deemed sound to be bred due to her condition (which I honestly don't know the details of) that would be required by the regulations you support. I'm sure she is a wonderful mare and I'm happy for any horse to find a loving home!


She had a seriouse tendon ligament injury that did not occur in one day...and occured b/c she was pushed to hard to young. She had no lack of vet care, and with rest she was able to do most things, just not win. Most trainers at private facilities like that do not own the establishment, and have one goal..to win.
I comprimised. I was owed a breeding, my choice of two studs. I only had geldings. I would have rather continued "shopping" for a mare, mulled it over instead of making a split second decision under self imposed pressure...not pressure or "selfish" desire of wanting a baby...but rather the pressure of saving her.
She was 3 when bred - and I waited until april, as would most....far younger than I feel is appropriate, but I made the decision for her....to be bred and sold to a good home, vs death.
Not all stockyards are created equal. Perhaps where you are she would have had no chance of slaughter, not so in this case. He was taking her to the closest one over 200 miles away for convenience sake, not the one that assured her of the "best chance".
With respect to the dangerous stud you mentioned, psychoses occur in most all higher level mammals, it is very sad, but I do not find it unethical or immoral to destroy them - including psychotic people that murdered or the like. In this country, dangerous humans w psychoses are kept alive behind bars and cared for at the taxpayer's expense for the very reason that they have a psychoses....and the horse is destroyed for the same...making the case for slaughter as a necessary evil, sometimes. The "human" regulation/law in this case already has greatly threatened your freedom (property, security). I only advocate some middle of the road regulation that would reduce the number of horses that are unnecessarily sent to slaughter. Perhaps there are far better ideas than those I suggested. But, I can't go along w "no prevention" is best....even if the "prevention" measure were nothing more than awareness. I mean, we have an "appreciation month" for everything...except the creature that put this country on the map!
Meanwhile, I am waiting for Sarkozy to apologize for his country.


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## herdbound

The horse in my profile picture was locked in a barn for about 6 months...every day her owners brought her out to get a drink of water from a 5 gallon bucket of water...then she was put back in the stall. There were no windows...hardly any light. She turned into a "hard to handle" horse. Hmmmmm wonder why? We bought her on Wednesday...she was already lined up for a trip to auction on Friday. At first she was a little psychotic. She wouldn't stand still for handling, she would rear up, she was just full of spunk...again...wonder why? We participate in parades alot...had her two weeks took her to the christmas parade she acted like a maniac and was put back on the trailer due to a safety issue for the crowd. Did we give up...nope. Took a few months of being handled correctly and now my kids can climb across the railing of our porch and pile up three at a time bareback on that mare and she will tote them around with motherly love  She is AWESOME. People had failed her...that will NEVER happen to her again. Thats what I can do...save what I can... I know I can't save them all I am very aware of that.


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## Missy May

Laws control the lesser man. Right conduct controls the greater one.
~unknown


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## Druydess

herdbound said:


> The horse in my profile picture was locked in a barn for about 6 months...every day her owners brought her out to get a drink of water from a 5 gallon bucket of water...then she was put back in the stall. There were no windows...hardly any light. She turned into a "hard to handle" horse. Hmmmmm wonder why? We bought her on Wednesday...she was already lined up for a trip to auction on Friday. At first she was a little psychotic. She wouldn't stand still for handling, she would rear up, she was just full of spunk...again...wonder why? We participate in parades alot...had her two weeks took her to the christmas parade she acted like a maniac and was put back on the trailer due to a safety issue for the crowd. Did we give up...nope. Took a few months of being handled correctly and now my kids can climb across the railing of our porch and pile up three at a time bareback on that mare and she will tote them around with motherly love  She is AWESOME. People had failed her...that will NEVER happen to her again. Thats what I can do...save what I can... I know I can't save them all I am very aware of that.


You're doing your part to right the wrongs. That's all any of us can do. Courage is doing what's right in spite of fear and discouragement.


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## herdbound

The worst sin towards our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them. That's the essence of inhumanity. 


~George Bernard Shaw 
_______________________



Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do other creatures. 



~The Dalai Lama 

_______________________


We need another and a wiser concept of animals... In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth. 



~Henry Beston


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## Druydess

herdbound said:


> The worst sin towards our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them. That's the essence of inhumanity.
> 
> 
> ~George Bernard Shaw
> _______________________
> 
> 
> 
> Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do other creatures.
> 
> 
> 
> ~The Dalai Lama
> 
> _______________________
> 
> 
> We need another and a wiser concept of animals... In a world older and more complete than ours they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life and time, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth.
> 
> 
> 
> ~Henry Beston


Your first quote is the essence of the problem. Human beings are arrogant, self-serving organisms. They are parasites, destroying, with impunity, all they come in contact with. The are indifferent To EACH OTHER. How can one expect even a minority of humans to actually acknowledge their own selfishness, fully engage their attention, and and commit to change themselves? It is very rare. There are a handful of people, such as Bernard Shaw and the Dalai Lama that have entered a place of cognitive dissonance thereby catalyzing a different, and unpopular thought and action.
This is the real fight to engage.
A wrong is a wrong. Dress it as you will. It is what it is.


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## AlexS

I used to be against slaughter, before I learned more about it. 

In my opinion, decent horse owners would not choose slaughter for their horses, they would quietly euth at home. 

However there are not enough homes available to take every abuse/neglect case, and I feel that slaughter is a better option (as it would be chosen as it provides the owner with some income) over starving in a field. 

I also disagree with the long distances that horses have to travel now for end of life. 

As a foster parent of teenage boys I can tell you that the same is true of kids, human kids in this country. There are not enough homes available for them, and many spend years in detention (kiddie jail) or group homes because of it. If we cannot fix this problem for humans we are about 100+ years off fixing the problem for animals.


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## herdbound

AlexS said:


> However there are not enough homes available to take every abuse/neglect case, and I feel that slaughter is a better option (as it would be chosen as it provides the owner with some income) over starving in a field.


If a horse has been starved & neglected to the point that slaughter is it's most humane option I feel that it is WRONG for the owners who have permitted them to become poor to profit from their misery. Why should they be rewarded for such cruel behavior. In fact a person that allows there animals to get to a state that they are that poor should be thrown in jail and suffer for their sins...via fines, jail time ect. And the animals confiscated and euthanized via local animal authorities. The reason I feel so strongly about them recieveing a "legal reprimand" for their actions is so they are less likely to repeat this irresponsible behavior and it will be LEGALLY documented in case they do it again. If it's bad enough they will lose their rights to own _*any*_ animal...and I feel like if you can't care for them properly and are KNOWN to have a problem with cruelty you SHOULD lose that right anyways. And most places in the US do have some sort of system set up to report these cruelty cases...so people need to use them more often and prosecute these people who do this....


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## Stir crazy

average horse weighs around 1000 pounds , no slaughter in US means .06 a pound , makes horse worth $60 cost of 1 4x5 round bale of hay $75 = starving horses!!!

Before slaughter houses were closed they were bringing .75 a pound making the same horse worth $750 , blind,crippled or crazy. This will promote these people to sell BEFORE they are allowed to starve. It will also promote better training better breeding, and a higher quality of horses.


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## herdbound

Stir crazy said:


> average horse weighs around 1000 pounds , no slaughter in US means .06 a pound , makes horse worth $60 cost of 1 4x5 round bale of hay $75 = starving horses!!!
> 
> Before slaughter houses were closed they were bringing .75 a pound making the same horse worth $750 , blind,crippled or crazy. This will promote these people to sell BEFORE they are allowed to starve. It will also promote better training better breeding, and a higher quality of horses.


So in your logic after the $750 horse has eaten $751 dollars worth of food your in the hole correct? Unless you are flipping horses right and left to make money...slaughter does not effect you. I do not flip horses, I own horses for pleasure purposes solely...I have spent more on feeding my horse than I will EVER get outta her even if I were to sell her...which I am not going to do. A well bred horse still fetches a good penny. Quality breeding, a good bloodline, and knowing what you are doing also brings the price of your horses up. I say let the law cleanup the morons who get horses and don't feed them not the slaughterhouses.


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## kevinshorses

I really hope you're not registered to vote!


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## herdbound

I am registered to vote :O and I am a Republican to boot! I am also a vegetarian...a Christian...and I have an IQ of 140...and what all that has to do with the price of tea in China I do not know. I have been, am and always will be against the inhumane slaughter of horses. For me there is no reason at all great enough to constitute inflicting pain and suffering on any living creature.

And before I get the bashing of a lifetime because I am a vegetarian...my choice to not eat meat has NOTHING to do with the slaughtering of animals for consumption...I do not eat meat because I do not want to smell like a carnivore for when I work with horses. I smell less threatening because I eat only a plant based diet.


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## Stir crazy

herdbound said:


> So in your logic after the $750 horse has eaten $751 dollars worth of food your in the hole correct? Unless you are flipping horses right and left to make money...slaughter does not effect you. I do not flip horses, I own horses for pleasure purposes solely...I have spent more on feeding my horse than I will EVER get outta her even if I were to sell her...which I am not going to do. A well bred horse still fetches a good penny. Quality breeding, a good bloodline, and knowing what you are doing also brings the price of your horses up. I say let the law cleanup the morons who get horses and don't feed them not the slaughterhouses.



No my logic is that when the horse is worth $750 bottom price you will quit seeing all the free horses on craigslist. You will also start seeing better bred, better trained horses because they are worth more. Slaughter market, like it or not, sets a base price on all horses. These prices effect anyone who raises or trains horses. 




herdbound said:


> I say let the law cleanup the morons who get horses and don't feed them not the slaughterhouses.


In your logic it is better for the horse to suffer months starving until the law can clean it up , instead of a couple hours in a slaughterhouse


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## herdbound

I don't ever want any animal to suffer...not for months...not for hours...not for minutes. We as the "higher thinking" beings are quite capable of keeping any animal from suffering for any amount of time.


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## Stir crazy

herdbound said:


> I don't ever want any animal to suffer...not for months...not for hours...not for minutes. We as the "higher thinking" beings are quite capable of keeping any animal from suffering for any amount of time.




Really??? How????? Suffering is part of life that every living being must endure


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## herdbound

Physical pain is not a necessity of life. As a higher thinking being WE can come up with ways to reduce and even eliminate the suffering endured by these animals at the end of their lives. I have stated before in this thread...it's not I am against slaughter. I am against inhumane slaughter that produces undue suffering in the horses. There is no need on earth for them to be tortured, or sadisticly processed while still alive. It takes less time, costs less money, and is more effective to be humane.


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## Druydess

Stir crazy said:


> Really??? How????? Suffering is part of life that every living being must endure


I believe there are multiple ways to limit suffering. Every living thing is not required to endure suffering. Having helped transition both people and animals during their collective inevitable deaths..your statement is inaccurate.
I have had the duty and honor to assist and support in the passing of many beings who experienced no suffering whatsoever.


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## kevinshorses

herdbound said:


> Physical pain is not a necessity of life.


You're either very fortunate or very naive to be an adult and still believe this.


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## herdbound

Physical pain inflicted knowingly by others is not a necessity of life. In fact I always thought that when someone physically abused , inflicted pain on, neglected, or knowingly tortured another living creature it was a.) illegal and b.) totally wrong ethically. 

*"Someone must speak for them. I do not see a delegation for the four footed. I see no seat for eagles. We forget and we consider ourselves superior, but we are after all a mere part of the Creation."
-- Oren Lyons, ONONDAGA*


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## faye

herdbound, so you have decided you cant help all horses so the ones you cant help personaly you want to/have made the situation worse for them! Nice going!


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## DuffyDuck

I saw this, and thought of this board...


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## Missy May

Well, there use to be no laws addressing manufacture...of just about anything, or work conditions. People died....a lot of people. Including soldiers w faulty equipment..there were no specs, no laws. WHY should any preventive measures have been taken??!! Where did our freedoms go? Why shouldn't people be able to sell deadly food, makeup, medicine, ammo, etc., and why on earth should small children be prevented from working??? And, for heaven sakes, what about immunizations and preventative medicine? Why should disease be "prevented" when it helps keep the population in check??? Oh, and then...gees...we have to deal with treaties prohibiting chemical warfare, honestly!!!! I mean, isn't the idea to kill people in a war theater???? Where is the sanity???? 

Preventing the breeding of unwanted horses would vastly reduce the unnecessary slaughter and suffering of horses. The logic that bad regulations necessarily means all regulation is bad is beyond dogmatic...its in a class all on its own.


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## Stir crazy

herdbound said:


> Physical pain inflicted knowingly by others is not a necessity of life. In fact I always thought that when someone physically abused , inflicted pain on, neglected, or knowingly tortured another living creature it was a.) illegal and b.) totally wrong ethically.
> 
> *"Someone must speak for them. I do not see a delegation for the four footed. I see no seat for eagles. We forget and we consider ourselves superior, but we are after all a mere part of the Creation."
> -- Oren Lyons, ONONDAGA*



I have a filly with a bad cut on her leg, twice a day i have to clean it out and doctor it, I also have had several colts gelded. In both of these cases I have knowingly inflicted pain,neither have been illegal and both have been ethical in my opinion. In atleast in the fillys case it was a necessity.


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## herdbound

If you are not intelligent enough to know the difference between scrubbing out a wound in order to HEAL it and sticking a cattle prod in the rear end of a downed horse to make it stand up so it can be shot in the head repeatedly...then I have nothing to help you. Gelding an animal when done properly does not normally lead to death...I would liken that to circumcision in boys, or spaying and neutering of pets. So again I have no idea why you would lump those things in with hanging a horse up while still alive and stripping it of its skin...you all are driven by money thats fine. I am driven by my heart.

I am also confused with the issue that you all have about having better breeding standards and having people accountable for their practices. Why does that bother you so badly? Where I live at now there are special permits that dog breeders must have in order to breed and register puppies if they have over 8 dogs they are considered a kennel. Giving special permits for the people who are breeding horses would help to promote the betterment of the breeds we enjoy. I mean I have a nice mare, would I ever breed her. No. She is nice BUT she is far from perfect. She has confirmation flaws that shouldn't be passed on. My sister had an outstanding bred QH and we were encouraged to breed her...would we? No. She was allergic to corn, certain hay, certain mites in the pasture...she was prone to chronic laminitis had a heart murmer and was the HARDEST keeper I have ever seen...she was not breeding material but guess what? We got her when she was 19 and she had already had 13 foals registered from her...why pass these "bad" traits on? I just am completely perplexed with the reasoning behind many of the comments on here. You want people to breed mass amounts of foals, in a downed market. You want absolutely no regulation on what gets bred to who. You want the slaughterhouses to remain open so the bottom feeders who starve and neglect there animals have some place to go when they have totally destroyed the animal physically because god forbid if they don't have the money to feed it how are they gonna euthanize it. 

Here is a theory. Up the standard for horse ownership, prosecute those that abuse & neglect horses, shut off the garbage disposal system of slaughter so people have to THINK BEFORE they do things that effect these animals. Go after the disease and cure it...not the symptoms. The disease is greed, irresponsible horse ownership, and the indifference man has towards them. That is the MAIN issue here...slaughter is just a by product.


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## herdbound

This IS my reason for wanting this to end because I love my horse...I cannot imagine this fate ever befalling her. But I know every single day, there are many horses, just like my horse being doomed to unimaginable hell full of torturous pain to satisfy the bottom line. I am anti-suffering for any reason. The thought of someone hurting her or others like her sickens me just as badly as if someone where to hurt my children...when you love something...you cannot hurt it. Maybe to you all they are just livestock, beasts of burden. Dollars and cents walking around on hooves but to me they are sentient beings, complete with the ability to feel pain just as we do. To allow this practice to continue - for whatever reason - is unacceptable to me.


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## Really Ride

I would never send my horses to a slaughter house knowingly and hope never to have to. However if it was allowed there is a man in our area who has a mobile abbatoire he uses to process deer, elk, bison and often lambs. If it was legal to process meat for pet or human consumption in Canada, and this person could come to your farm and quickly and humanely put your horse down and take it away and use it for another purpose, would you do that? I think the question often is not slaughter it is the idea of your kind old horse in a commercial slaughter house, one I can't agree with either. However with many horse owners today not owning the property their horses are kept on, and paying endless board for an animal that is permanently lame and suffering, that may live another 20 years, and long after the child who desperately "Wanted" it has moved on to other things, what is the answer for these horse owners? Especially when they may be facing bigger issues such as the loss of their homes, or loved ones.


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## herdbound

Really Ride said:


> If it was legal to process meat for pet or human consumption in Canada, and this person could come to your farm and quickly and humanely put your horse down and take it away and use it for another purpose, would you do that? I think the question often is not slaughter it is the idea of your kind old horse in a commercial slaughter house, one I can't agree with either. However with many horse owners today not owning the property their horses are kept on, and paying endless board for an animal that is permanently lame and suffering, that may live another 20 years, and long after the child who desperately "Wanted" it has moved on to other things, what is the answer for these horse owners? Especially when they may be facing bigger issues such as the loss of their homes, or loved ones.


Would I want anyone or anything eating my horse? No. She will be buried here, and a stone will be placed upon her grave just as if I buried any other beloved member of my family. I understand that I am fortunate to have the property and the means by which to care for my horses even upon their demise. Not everyone is as fortunate. BUT then again if I did not have the means by which to care for them as I do I would not own them. There were times in my life where I lived in places I could not keep horses and thus I didn't own them. This is where education comes into play and finds it's importance. These animals live for a long time...sometimes 30+ years. Things do change quickly in life I understand that...but with the internet being what it is...finding a suitable home for your horse/horses should you have to do so isn't that hard. Yes it may not be as easy as picking up the phone and arranging for it to be hauled off to slaughter BUT isn't it worth TRYING to place it with a loving home. I do not know of a rescue that would turn down a horse, if they are full they willoften refer you to another that isn't IF no one else will take it.


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## herdbound

I would love to see all these unwanted horses of which everyone speaks. Every once in awhile they pop an article on the news about some dumped horses somewhere but VERY rarely does this happen. The horses that usually live in a neglected, starved state belong to people who are hoarders and REFUSE to relinquish the animals to anyone for any reason...be it to sell them, send them to rescue and most definitely not to slaughter. Yes every once in awhile we hear about dumped horses...but you also hear about dumped children, dumped dogs, and ect. The only ones I know of have gotten media attention because they were large scale situations in which people were hoarding and in almost every one of those stories I have seen guess who shows up and takes the animals...all these rescues you all claim are full and turning people away.


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## herdbound

Heres some links...Now here are these hooky crazy people who not only devote their time, money & energy into saving these animals from slaughter. They also have all kinds of things like low cost clinics for rabies, coggins ect. to help out those who are on harder times or tighter budgets. Horse rescues even sponsor low cost euthansia clinics too in certain areas. They have a network of people behind the scenes as well who serve as fosters who take in horses till they are placed and then new ones fill that spot in their barn. They will RARELY turn a horse away...IF they can't take it in you bet they will be on the phone finding someone...a foster or another rescue to take it on. 

WikiHorseWorld - WikiHorseWorld Equine Directory | United States Horse Rescue

Wild Horse and Rescue Links
United States Equine Rescue League, Inc.


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## kevinshorses

If people want to do that then I'm fine with it. I think it's kind of foolish but I would NEVER work to prevent it. 

I sold a horse to a kill buyer because he was a great horse, really pretty and had navicular. He'd been nerved but it had progressed to the point that he was lame again. I sold him directly to the meat man because I didn't want some bleeding heart buying him and trying to "rescue" him. I don't like the idea of all that meat going to waste.

All I ask of you is to allow me to see to the disposition of my horses as I see fit just the same as I would allow you to do the same.


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## BoldComic

I am against the ban of processing plants in the U.S. However, I do believe that they needed to be regulated. Horses need to be put down quickly with as little trauma as possible. This includes the trip to the processing plant and after arriving. It used to be the sick and lame horses that went for meat but now only strong healthy horses will survive the trip to Mexico. So healthy horses are bought, crammed into rail cars, deprived of feed and water, and sent across the border. Then the meat is bought back by zoos in the U.S. Something seems very wrong about this. There has to be a better solution.

I also believe that good breeding practices would go a long way to help the problem but there will always be irresponsible people. 

And I, like many others here, believe that it was much less suffering to be sent to a slaughter house than to be starved for months on end. Imagine being hungry every day for 3 months only to finally lay down and will yourself to die.

My horses will be euthanized here at my home but I don't condemn those who choose other options. I wish I could save every animal out there from pain. But I can not. All I can do is be responsible and take care of the animals that I have brought into my home.


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## Gremmy

Herdbound, go back a few pages where I posted figures of horses slaughtered in Canada. There are your unwanted horses of which everyone speaks. Do you need to physically see them? Come on up (or down!)

You keep throwing out half baked ideas but no solutions and it does nothing to support your argument. You think irresponsible owners should be held accountable? I agree. However I do not have a solution - you're so convinced that it will solve the issue of unwanted horses, so why don't you elaborate? Exactly how should the laws be changed so that every single one of these people could be held accountable without hobbling responsible horse owners? Who will enforce it? What will it cost? Where will the funds come from? Banning slaughter and keeping US horses from crossing the border for slaughter elsewhere - how will that be put in place and enforced while allowing horses to cross the border for other purposes, and without breaching any current trade agreements?

If you cannot answer those questions down to the last detail, then your ideas are not feasible and only work in happy fluffy dreamland. Ideas are not solutions until you can show exactly how they will happen in such detail that the process could start tomorrow. I wasn't born defending slaughter, it is a position I took after realizing that those lofty ideas could not hold up in the real world. Nobody here thinks horses are soul-less sacks of meat. NOBODY. They enrich my life unlike anything else, they are intelligent animals capable of feeling pain just like anything else, and they deserve just as much respect. I will not support a ban for slaughter because it is thus far the only way to save some horses who have not been fortunate enough to end up in the hands of a caring, responsible owner. If I had things my way ALL animals would be allowed a life of comfort and a peaceful passing in a familiar place - the reason no horse in my control would ever see a slaughterhouse. This isn't about your animals or mine - this is about the ones we cannot personally save - if your rebuttal to that is "well someone else CAN", well, they are. Just not in the way you or I would have wanted.

By all means, advocate responsible ownership, breeding, training, you name it. I'm all for it. Get on the breeding board and help people make intelligent decisions about the animals they breed - some will listen, but you'll be amazed how many will plug their ears and do what they want anyways. How *EXACTLY* do we control the decisions they make, and what right do we truly have to do so?

Please, I'm very open to having my mind changed. The problem is, nobody has been able to. As the debate becomes more focused you guys always resort to tugging the heartstrings - "HOW COULD YOU SLAUGHTER THIS CUTE PONEH??" - you just don't get it. The anti-slaughter movement has failed me.


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## DuffyDuck

herdbound said:


> I would love to see all these unwanted horses of which everyone speaks. Every once in awhile they pop an article on the news about some dumped horses somewhere but VERY rarely does this happen. The horses that usually live in a neglected, starved state belong to people who are hoarders and REFUSE to relinquish the animals to anyone for any reason...be it to sell them, send them to rescue and most definitely not to slaughter. Yes every once in awhile we hear about dumped horses...but you also hear about dumped children, dumped dogs, and ect. The only ones I know of have gotten media attention because they were large scale situations in which people were hoarding and in almost every one of those stories I have seen guess who shows up and takes the animals...all these rescues you all claim are full and turning people away.


 
Actually, having a toe in the 'sport' horse world, I can tell you over here there are many trainers, breeders, owners, riders that when the horse is past its best, and can no longer be ridden, send the horse to slaughter. Or sell it for 'meat money'- in this economy very few people can afford to have dozens of horses that stand in the field all day long (I'm trying to think of the English words, they're just not coming :?) We call them 'Beistell pferde' even if they're sold as companions, I know of people who dope them up, ride them, then send them to slaughter.

I would rather my own horse went to slaughter and have the meat put to some use, rather than think she's rotting away somewhere, and if she's lame, unrideable etc then at least she's taking the place of a healthy horse.

JMO, I know many people won't agree with it, but to HB there are MANY horses that people don't want, can't afford, of don't give a darn about.


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## goneriding

Dope them up and ride them then send them to slaughter? Wow, what jackasses. I have a horse in retirement, she can no longer be ridden comfortably. I feed and care for her because she has earned her retirement. She has given me a lot. I am not going to just discard her. Gosh....


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## DuffyDuck

goneriding said:


> Dope them up and ride them then send them to slaughter? Wow, what an ***. I have a horse in retirement, she can no longer be ridden comfortably. I feed and care for her because she has earned her retirement. She has given me a lot. I am not going to just discard her. Gosh....


Yep, it happens a lot.

You get people who want a cheap horse to ride and gain points/money for the competition season (if they last long enough) that may have been great in their heydey, but arthitis, navicular, bone splints etc stop them doing it (it generally is leg problems) and then they ride them in to the ground, quite literally.
Its sad, but some people make a business out of it.
There is someone with a training barn around 20mins from here, if a horse goes lame and won't come good within 3 months, its sent to the slaughter house- if the horse isn't bringing money in, its no use to them.

Its unfortunate, but true.

If I had my horse for such a long time, then said horse would stay with me too- I am in no way an advocate of what I posted. However, when the time was right, due to illness or age, and I had to have my horse pts, a slaughter house would be my first thought, and I know friends who have sent their horses to slaughter houses, and my trainer included, because its fairer to the horse than being pts with drugs, quicker, and all the workers at the slaughter houses that I know of have a lot of respect, and let the horse go with as much dignity as possible. I would rather my horse, dying of old age etc be used for slaughter and human consumption than a healthy horse for meat demand.


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## kitten_Val

herdbound said:


> I do not know of a rescue that would turn down a horse, if they are full they willoften refer you to another that isn't IF no one else will take it.


Then you are lucky I guess. Because _*all *_rescues in my area are over-filled with horses. 

BTW, I'd much rather have only 2 horses (who came from unfortunate situations, BTW) well cared and pampered then 5 horses "saved from meat truck" fighting for the hay as it happens in some so-called "rescues". Unfortunately slaughter is a needed beast simply because there are too many unwanted horses. And if you (general you) don't have enough money/resources taking more animals can be as abusive as sending them to the slaughter. I always wonder why killing the animal (whether it's euth or bullet or the _humane _slaughtering) is considered to be cruel while slow dying from starvation or some kind of injury/disease is OK.


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## herdbound

Gremmy said:


> Herdbound, go back a few pages where I posted figures of horses slaughtered in Canada. There are your unwanted horses of which everyone speaks. Do you need to physically see them? Come on up (or down!)
> 
> You keep throwing out half baked ideas but no solutions and it does nothing to support your argument. You think irresponsible owners should be held accountable? I agree. However I do not have a solution - you're so convinced that it will solve the issue of unwanted horses, so why don't you elaborate? Exactly how should the laws be changed so that every single one of these people could be held accountable without hobbling responsible horse owners? Who will enforce it? What will it cost? Where will the funds come from? Banning slaughter and keeping US horses from crossing the border for slaughter elsewhere - how will that be put in place and enforced while allowing horses to cross the border for other purposes, and without breaching any current trade agreements?


When I talk about having "breeders" obtain permits that is one way to make mass reforms. Would the person who has 6 or 7 head of horses be affected by this no. These would apply to people who are solely in the business of making money from the breeding and selling of horses for whatever reason. It is THIER responsibility, not yours & not mine, to maintain a certain quality of life for the animals they bring into this world. By setting up certain restrictions it would help enforce the fact that as a "business" they do need to abide by certain ethical standards for their industry. The same as Doctors, Lawyers, Contractors, and all other "professional" groups have. They have boards set up to not only issue licensure BUT govern such license as a privelege. That board exists to hold these people accountable, to inspect their practices routinely and as an entity that can have the power to be reported too and step in when need be to make "ethical decisions" on the welfare of the animals when the "individual" is not doing so. Many of the reported stories we see are of larger scale operations that have gone under. The thoroughbred farm everyone raced to the rescue on last year, right now there are 41 Arabians being given away in PA because the owner died and did not have a "back up" plan as to what to do with all of his stock should he pass away. A Governed system would help these people seek legal council in matters such as this, and make sure that the animals are not "too far gone" before someone steps to their aid.

Animal welfare when it comes to horses is a loose knit system at best. Because they are still technically livestock they do not receive the same protection as our companion animals such as dogs and cats. Are horses livestock? In ways yes and in ways no. At least here in America where it is illegal to consume horse meat. Yes they can be used as an aid in ranch work, much like a blue heeler dog. But are they a commodity like a cow or chicken who's sole purpose is to born, raised, butchered and eaten. No. Are they like a dairy cow or a goat from which we farm products they produce like milk. No. A horses main purpose is for pleasure in the US. We compete on them in shows, race them for sport, or use them for a weekend hobby to meander around trails. They exist as a pleasurable luxury much like my little dog sitting at my feet...do I need her for anything other than something to enjoy...no the same goes for my mare.

Back to animal welfare and horses. I live in WV. Here in WV if I report an animal for being poor, I have to call the sheriffs dept, who then contacts a humane officer, who then gets back with the sheriffs dept and they make a visit. Now when she goes out if the horse is still standing, it could be on deaths door but if it is still standing she MUST give the owner 30 days to bring the horses condition up...she will instruct them on how to feed, what to feed and make sure the animal has a water source ect. The system sucks because usually the animals are in such poor conditions that if the owner does NOT meet the requirement within the 30 days they horse is now so bad it is inhumane for it to stay alive. It needs to be tightened up a tad to catch this BEFORE it gets that **** bad...now I am all for euthanizing animals that are that poor. It takes a tremendous amount of knowledge, vet care, and time to bring a horse back from the point of starvation. It is not just a matter of feed it more food, their is an exact science to bringing back a horse and any error in it results in the animal dying anyways. People who allow their animals to starve need to be reprimanded STRICTLY not just a pat on the hand. They need to be LEGALLY reprimanded and lose the right to own other animals...the laws need to be able to do this though as quickly as possible. Now would that effect you or I? No unless you are in the business of starving your horses...I know I am not....mine is a little over weight  BUT I do know people who practice this starvation on a seasonal schedule. They exploit the horses hardiness as a survivor and routinely yo-yo them from summer through winter -year in and year out. I also know that someof them do this to make the animals easier to train because a horse down in weight is more docile. Both of these practices need to end. They are cruel and unnecessary. This can only be handled through law enforcement stepping up to the aid of these animals...just like they would do if I had a dog chained up out back starving to death. They need to start looking at horses in a different light.

As for "the unwanted numbers" from the data I viewed in the Effects of the Cessation Of Slaughter in the US report...the number for horses being sent to slaughter has declined since 1990...which in 1990 345,000 horses were sent to slaughter in the US compared to last years report of aprox 130,000 horses sent outside the US. Slaughter ceased in the US in 2007. In the year 2000 there were 47,194 horses slaughtered in the US. Now what do those figures suggest. They suggest that just like anything else the market fluxuates. This market is effected by laws, the price of gas, world economy factors and everything in between. But the problem I have had with it and will always have with it is that these horses do have other options that are far more humane.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d11228.pdf

I think someone just posted a reply saying they had a horse who was injured that they sent on because they did not want some bleeding heart saving him. Why wouldn't you just put the animal down then yourself? I know why and so do you...it was to make some sort of recoop on your losses. I am not against slaughter if it is done quickly and humanely. I watched videos of the Canadian slaughterhouses who are under more regulation than the Mexican slaughter houses and was shocked that a veterinarian is standing by watching and allowing botched attempts at killing the animals. I guess to some it may not matter right? The animal is going to be dead soon enough anyways, who cares that the last half hour of it's life is spent in excruciating pain. Why though is that necessary? It is not. 

Most of the animals being bought at auction by kill buyers are being bought out from under rescues that are there and are willing to take these animals on and rehab them. They do not need to die. When people come on forums like this and proclaim all the rescues are full and there is only but one choice it aggravates me because that is not true. People who rescue horses live, breath, and sweat this as a mission. They would give you the shirt off their backs if they thought you could use it. They will make numerous phone calls, do all the leg work, take on your problems with you and go out of their way to help you if you need help. And they will do whatever they can to save a horse from slaughter. It is NOT the only option.

That is my goal. I want people to be more accountable for their actions. Especially those engaged in the "business" of horses. I also want law enforcement to be able to step in BEFORE the situation is out of control on neglect/abuse cases. And I want people to understand that there are more options than slaughter as a way to get rid of "unwanted" horses. SOme of it is mere laziness. Horses that could be sold via the paper or internet don't even get that chance because people are to lazy to even try to place the horse when they know they can load it on a trailer on Friday and get paid for it that same day. Often they don't want the hassle of dealing with having people out to look at them or trying to sell them. Just think about the horses...thats all I ask...think about how they can feel a fly on their withers in summer...how sensitive they are to anxiety and to pain. They are aware of what is happening there. They feel all of that just as I or you would feel. They are not exempt from the pain.


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## Really Ride

Herd bound has ONE horse, and is on a podium about her one horse who is as close to her as her dog, or she sees it as her child. There are people, who are not bad, or ignorant horse breeders, that have foals, raise them, train them and sell them and hope for the best for those horse's lives. But sometimes you are dealt the "Queen of Spades" in the horse breeding business and that is that horses get hurt and become permanently lame, on their journey's through human hands. Many of these horses are the best bred, most promising young stock you own. If the genetics are right and it is a mare, you might try to salvage your loss and re-coup those value able genetics, by breeding the mare and getting a foal from her. But eventually you've got a young gelding or mare that you may not be as close as your dog to, that needs to find a new home. I have 30 horses and ponies here and this has been a sad decision here. We have just been putting them down and burying them here as we have the land and resources to do so. But if the man with the travelling abbattoire was allowed to process horse meat, he would come here and take these horses away, and I think I would let him...................I would never pawn my problems off on someone else, nor trust a lame horse in the hands of even a rescue, that they didn't end up on a meat truck somewhere else.


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## kevinshorses

herdbound said:


> I think someone just posted a reply saying they had a horse who was injured that they sent on because they did not want some bleeding heart saving him. *Why wouldn't you just put the animal down then yourself? I know why and so do you...it was to make some sort of recoop on your losses.* I am not against slaughter if it is done quickly and humanely.


You don't have any idea. By the time I trailered the horse to the guy I spent what little money he could pay me for the horse. I did it because I don't want 1000lbs of useable meat to rot in the ground. The horse isn't going to suffer from the trip to the feedlot or to the processing plant. If they knock him in the head and don't kill him I'd bet they keep at it until he is dead and it won't take but maybe a minute. When horses were worth $500 or more then your arguement had some merit but that's not the case anymore. If I thought the care that horse got was subpar or that he would be "tortured" I would have shot him in my yard and hauled him to the landfill but I don't believe that and I'd bet he's delicious.


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## herdbound

Right now I do only have one horse. Last year I had four. I sold three of my horses due to a change in my financial situation - I am getting divorced. I knew that economicly this year I wouldn't have been able to provide for them through winter so I placed an ad and sold them. Each one found a home...nice homes. Almost once a week on my Facebook wall two of the people who bought them post pictures and I get to see how wonderful their new lives are with their new families. The one little girl who took my tennuvian has improved her grades in school and her behavior in general has become a lot better. The other went to my cousin and I have seen her several times since. So YES there can be happy endings in rehoming horses


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## applover

Pro slaughter here until someone offers to pay for all the unwanted, injured, or old horses.


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## BoldComic

I understand this is an emotional topic and I hate to fuel the fire but herdbound, you are so quick to condemn others and call them irresponsible when you got rid of 3 horses this year. Yes you found homes for them but that is not a guarantee that they will not end up over the border in a slaughter house. The only way to make sure that doesn't happen is to keep them yourself. Yes your financial situation wouldn't allow it but you shouldn't expect others to "rescue" horses and take on the financial burden if you are not willing. Please do not continue to insult people like Kevin (you're comment that he sent a lame horse to slaughter for money) for doing what they feel is right. How would you like to live the next 10 years in constant pain? And why waste the meat? Zoos feed mainly horse meat. Think of it like donating your organs after you die.


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## herdbound

I am not condemning Kevin. I think he is a very level headed and logical guy. I so understand where he is coming from. MY comment was not meant to be condemning...and I am sorry if it came across like that...especially to Kevin. I was simply stating the fact that when people look at them from the standpoint that they are livestock, which correct me if I am wrong Kevin, that seems to be the case. He is like many horse owners out there. I have many friends just like Kevin, I don't hate them heck I don't even dislike them, we just disagree on this one matter. But it's ok to disagree...when someone views them more as "livestock" than pets of course it makes sense to send them to slaughter and recoop some of the cost. That money can be invested back into feed or ect for other horses. This is logical farming practice. I don't view them as "livestock" I view them more as companion animals. I did sell three horses due to financial reasons. I was not going to have them here and not KNOW I could get them through winter. That was the most responsible thing to do. Not to wait till it's december and I run out of hay and have them standing around looking at me for food and there not be any. I did take the time to check the people out. In fact I don't know why people have problems in placing animals, I had so many phone calls for them I was getting them loooong after the horses were gone. I could have just loaded them up in a trailer and head to Sugar Creek but I didn't...I gave them a chance and guess what they are happy and all healthy and I know exactly where they are at and what is going on with them. I made new friends from the deals.


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## kevinshorses

I don't feel any ill will to anyone because of the posts on this thread. MY point was that I wasn't doing it for financial gain. I did it because I think it's wrong to waste the meat. I didn't get any financial gain out of it and I knew I wouldn't. I've bought and sold many horses and as far as I know none of them have been sold to the meat man because I've made sure they were valuable enough to keep out of that market. This horse had to be put in the meat market because he would soon end up too crippled to get around. I didn't even try to sell him to anyone else because he was a big, bally faced grulla gelding and someone would think they could fix him and he would end up suffering for another year before the same thing happened.


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## herdbound

This is just one of those things that will probably be debated and scrutinized into the dirt for a long time until something "better" comes along. I just say that little serenity prayer over...Lord help me change the things I can, and accept the things I cannot and the wisdom to know the difference"...I can't as one person save all these animals, what I can do is keep on doing what I do. Try to inform people, be compassionate to the animals in my life, and help out at the rescues and be there if a friend ever needs me. Thats about it. I am one of those "softies" I guess my heart gets me in a lot of trouble...but I don't want to fight with people either. Being hateful or angry with people never solves anything it only makes the situation worse in my opinion.


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## Druydess

Sometimes these forums come across as series of anathemas. Only here can an owner be ridiculed for finding responsible homes, for being concerned about inhumane murder, or for having passion for sanctity of life.
Get off it already.
There is more twisted juvenile "keyboard-infused balsy BS" circling the drain here than you can shake a stick at.
Herdbound AND Kevin are both responsible, caring horse owners, yet Herdbound is being ridiculed just for her belief, and subsequent responsible actions therewith.
She at least has DONE something in her corner of the world to help the situation. And this is not to say Kevin or others have not done the same, but she is the one that's being attacked for having the courage to stand up for her beliefs. I really have no tolerance for bullies. Debate respectfully- or remain silent.
Debate isn't useful- or- successful- unless people actually listen, instead of lobbing insults, casting aspersions, insulting IQ's, or knee-jerk judging.
It may even be possible to learn something.


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## BoldComic

This is the last I'm saying here. I hope I didn't offend or hurt any feelings. It's hard on a forum to not be able to "hear the tone" of the words said. I meant no insult to herdbound or anyone else. In a perfect world animals wouldn't suffer and there would be world peace. Here's to hoping.


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## Druydess

BoldComic said:


> This is the last I'm saying here. I hope I didn't offend or hurt any feelings. It's hard on a forum to not be able to "hear the tone" of the words said. I meant no insult to herdbound or anyone else. In a perfect world animals wouldn't suffer and there would be world peace. Here's to hoping.


Well said Bold Comic. I didn't read anything offensive from you at all.


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## herdbound

Well as far as I am concerned, this is NOT my first time at this particular rodeo guys. This is something that I have been involved in for a few years and my skin is pretty thick. Honestly people can say anything they want to me, insult me, put me down, it doesn't affect me. I know the truth about myself, about my beliefs BUT I do not ever want to resort to that type of behavior myself. I don't like inflicting pain on animals OR people. Trying to attack people with words is unnecessary, at least in my book, and as adults I think we can agree to disagree  But thank you Druydess for the kind words and support. No worries


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## BlueSpark

the ideal situation is a totally humane slaughter arangement. I don't care if people want to eat them, many horses are raised like livestock and don't know any better, some are crazy, cripled, ugly or poorly built. there needs to be some where for these to go. the issue in my mind is the cruelty involved in the slaughter process.


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## kevinshorses

A process that ends in an animals death con only be so kind. It's awfully hard to kill anything without the potential for pain. For every horse you see being hit multiple times with a knocker there are probably a hundred that drop with the first hit. For every horse that gets injured in transport there are a thousand that don't. There is a limit to how humane you can be to an animal that you are in the process of killing. Even when trying to be humane accidents happen and mistakes are made. Until you have actually seen the slaughter process with your own two eyes then you should be careful calling it cruel. Youtube videos paint a biased picture the same way a video from the slaughter industry would be biased. Nobody has more to gain from keeping the animals calm and killing them quickly than the people selling the meat.


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## lizzy12312

slaughter is compleately not acceptable in my oppinon why would you whant to go and kill your horse or any horse for that matter ?? i mean let them live ther life and die naturaly


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## BlueSpark

> slaughter is compleately not acceptable in my oppinon why would you whant to go and kill your horse or any horse for that matter ?? i mean let them live ther life and die naturaly


This has been gone over so many times. Yeah about letting them live and die naturaly, as expensive animals, who pays for that? the criples, crazies, ones with horible conformation, spoiled saddle horses? what about all the untouched draft broodmares that were up here? 10-15-20+ year old stallions and broodmares the owners cant aford to keep that no one wants. If you want to train a half crazy unhandled 2000lb brood mare, all the power to you. and if you want to keep a mentally unstable horse, a cripple, a dangerous spoiled saddle horse or a horse with conformation issues that make it unsuitable to be ridden and will incure thousands in vet bills, thats great. Personaly, I don't. Nor do I want some of the non descript products of back yard breeders, with alright attitudes, questionable conformation, poor breeding and no eye appeal.



> A process that ends in an animals death con only be so kind. It's awfully hard to kill anything without the potential for pain.


True. but a short life with no care, 
starving to death, 
or abandoned in a vacant feild, 
being shot in the head by some one who cant afford the feed 
or being stuck on a cramped truck for 2000 miles being shipped to a mexican slaughter house, I think are worse options than death.


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## Speed Racer

kevinshorses said:


> I don't feel any ill will to anyone because of the posts on this thread.


Exactly, kevin. 

People are allowed to disagree, and I've found herdbound to be intelligent and articulate. It's quite refreshing to be able to act like civilized humans and agree to disagree on a particular topic, instead of the general mud slinging and name calling that happens. :wink:

I'm not so much PRO slaughter as anti-anti slaughter. If someone can_ realistically_ come up with a workable alternative that isn't predicated on the false presumption that someone, somewhere (not *them*, though) wants to take on these animals, then I'll happily go along with the program. I also can't get behind any idea that somehow *more* regulations and restrictions will help. The only thing they'll do is overburden HONEST horse owners who aren't abusing or neglecting their animals in the first place.


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## herdbound

Thank you Speedracer ... truth is I really think ALL of us want the same things and no sane human being WANTS or finds joy in any living creature suffering. I think if they came up with a better way to do this and it helped stimulate the market value of the animals everyone would support it. Unfortuantely calling each other names, or being angry and hateful with each other only takes us further away from that. 

People are kinda like horses in a way...if you trigger a defense mechanism in our minds...learning shuts down. So being civil with each other, no matter if we agree on it or not, is the FIRST step to making progress whatever it may be.


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## VT Trail Trotters

Anti, got reasons.


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## WesternBella

VT Trail Trotters said:


> Anti, got reasons.


You are NOT the only one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fringe

I am not pro-slaughter. I realize it it the best option for some horses and we need it. It's better than what some horses would face otherwise.
I'm never going to be happy about it, though.


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## Speed Racer

Exactly right, Herd. The biggest hurdle all of us need to overcome is vilifying those who don't agree with our particular stance, whether it's for, against, or on the fence.

I don't know anyone, pro, anti, or undecided who thinks that prolonged suffering is acceptable, and yet I see these accusations thrown out time and again by those who believe that whoever doesn't buy into their particular opinion must be that way.

What I dislike more than anything else is someone else's belief that they have the right to dictate to others how they're supposed to act and feel, and because they don't LIKE something it gives them the right to infringe upon the rights of others. That's wrong on so many levels.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May

Well, philosophically...which is always fun ....if horse meat is okay for human consumption and/or human's pets - why not human meat? Cattle, chicken and pigs have always been used for food in western culture. This is not the case w horses or humans.


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## Speed Racer

Horse meat was eaten in the US up until the 1960s, and was in commercially available pet foods until the late 1970s. If you're trying to use history as proof for the anti agenda, you need to do proper research.

As far as using a specious argument trying to compare eating horse meat akin to cannibalism, I'm embarrassed for you at your ignorance and naivety.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May

Speed Racer said:


> Horse meat was eaten in the US up until the 1960s, and was in commercially available pet foods until the late 1970s. If you're trying to use history as proof for the anti agenda, you need to do proper research.
> 
> As far as using a specious argument trying to compare eating horse meat akin to cannibalism, I'm embarrassed for you at your ignorance and naivety.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I am ashamed. Western culture started w the US? Who knew?


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## Speed Racer

What do you define as 'Western culture'? The UK? They eat horse. Canadians? Horse meat is readily available for those who want it. Hispanics? French? Dutch? Swedish? They all have no aversion to cheval.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tempest

This is an extremely interesting thread, especially now because I was assigned a rhetorical analysis paper on animal slaughter. Very civil for the most part.


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## Missy May

Speed Racer said:


> What do you define as 'Western culture'? The UK? They eat horse. Canadians? Horse meat is readily available for those who want it. Hispanics? French? Dutch? Swedish? They all have no aversion to cheval.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I was thinking more along the lines of that which shaped all the history, norms, laws, and culture of Europe and its expansion.... greece/rome/christianity. But it is defined in many different way...I was just defining it the way most ignorant naive hill billies w classical educations define it.

It was a phylosophical question. That is all. It tests the logic of "excess meat"...not meant to offend.


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## herdbound

Missy May I am anti-suffering. In this proverbial "war" between anti/pro slaughter you need to remember the basic rule of life. Be careful what battles you pick. Even though ALL meat based protein takes far more $$$ to create, has far more of an impact on environment, and takes far more energy to produce than plant based protein...people will always eat meat...be it cow, chicken, goat, pig or unfortunately horse...because they want too. The thought to me is personally sickening to think of BUT I am well aware that is a battle you will never win. Right now my main concern is that animals that do find themselves unwanted and at the slaughter houses be treated as humanely and ethical as possible to minimize the suffering they must endure before their lives are ended. I think we have to focus on that issue FIRST because at this point it truly is the only thing we can actually do to "help" them. Are we going to end slaughter of horses for human/pet consumption...no. Instead of saying all or nothing we have to come to the table and say it's going to happen so whats the most efficient and humane way it can happen and work from there...PLUS educate, and promote the idea of responsible horse ownership to anyone who will stand still long enough to listen. You will never see a change in the slaughter #s unless we make a change in the reasons they end up there. And the change is there needs to be more proactive responsibility by horse owners. IF and when people start doing that...you will see a drop in horses sent to slaughter...small baby steps towards lowering the numbers sent.


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## herdbound

I will relate this to sport hunting of deer and other wild game to clarify. I could never take an animals life. Never. Yet every deer season men and women spend outrageous amounts of money to go and get a deer. I would never personally be able to shoot a deer...I can't eat deer meat...in fact I am a vegetarian...so I don't eat any meat. But in a rough form deer hunting is kinda like feild slaughtering if that makes sense. A good hunter knows exactly where to shoot the deer in order to drop it instantly...the hunter aproaches and dispatches any life left in the animal quickly and it is over. They then dress it and take it home. Now you know there are bad hunters too...the ones that go out and shoot anything that moves in the bush, they do not take care to aim properly, to them it is more the thrill of killing something I believe. They are not concerned about the animals suffering and due not view the life they are taking as anything important. They are often the wasteful hunters like the one who shot a buck out back of my property and took just the tenderloin and left the rest of the carcass for the coyotes. Deer hunting is always going to happen. The facts are people will never stop this practice and unfortunately for the deer we have pretty much taken over what was once their lands and they now find themselves too many for what they have so it is necessary to prevent diseases, car accidents, and other ailments to their population and our ours. Horse slaughter right now is like that. They are culling the excess...and we have went over all of that unneccessary excess many times already in this thread. The ONLY thing we can hope for and fight for is that the person doing the slaughtering is like the first hunter. One that takes the life quickly and effeciently and shows compassion for the animal. I don't like it. I hate it...I hate that ANY horse has to die. But the facts are that right now some do...I just want them to die in a humane way.


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## Missy May

herdbound said:


> Missy May I am anti-suffering. In this proverbial "war" between anti/pro slaughter you need to remember the basic rule of life. Be careful what battles you pick. Even though ALL meat based protein takes far more $$$ to create, has far more of an impact on environment, and takes far more energy to produce than plant based protein...people will always eat meat...be it cow, chicken, goat, pig or unfortunately horse...because they want too. The thought to me is personally sickening to think of BUT I am well aware that is a battle you will never win. Right now my main concern is that animals that do find themselves unwanted and at the slaughter houses be treated as humanely and ethical as possible to minimize the suffering they must endure before their lives are ended. I think we have to focus on that issue FIRST because at this point it truly is the only thing we can actually do to "help" them. Are we going to end slaughter of horses for human/pet consumption...no. Instead of saying all or nothing we have to come to the table and say it's going to happen so whats the most efficient and humane way it can happen and work from there...PLUS educate, and promote the idea of responsible horse ownership to anyone who will stand still long enough to listen. You will never see a change in the slaughter #s unless we make a change in the reasons they end up there. And the change is there needs to be more proactive responsibility by horse owners. IF and when people start doing that...you will see a drop in horses sent to slaughter...small baby steps towards lowering the numbers sent.


I agree w you herd, 100%. I am already resigned to the fact it cannot be stopped. My main issue is prevention...as in, preventing unwanted horses from being "created" which will necessarily decrease needless slaughter - in the future. That in itself is a "compromise" with "all or nothing". I wasn't actually advocating vegetarianism for all or cannibalism.  It was a ill-faited attempt at pointing out that excess meat is not a "justification" to continue w status quo....assuming one "draws the line" somewhere (i.e., no to human meat). Ah, it isn't the first time one of my "attempts" was misunderstood. You're point is well taken. Thank you.


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## Really Ride

Because Lizzy some horses are in pain and are unsaleable and un adoptable. It is irresponsible to pawn your problem horse off to some one else. Sometimes the kindest thing is a big bucket of grain and a bullet..................


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## Speed Racer

Missy, I'm not sure where you think anyone is advocating equine slaughter 'just because'. If there wasn't a market for it, it wouldn't exist.

All of those civilizations and cultures you mentioned ate horses. It's only been a very recent phenomenon that certain people have decided that horses are 'more special' than any other meat animal, and use that excuse to try and infringe on other peoples' rights.

Your argument about eating people, and that Westernized civilizations don't eat horse because of their cultural values was wrong on far too many levels, which makes you appear as woefully uneducated on the topic. I can't take someone seriously who doesn't use rational, factual arguments.

Herdbound is correct; eating meat isn't going to stop regardless of how many hysterical, emotional, badly thought out arguments people throw out there. For every person who sees horses as fur people, there will be 10 others who see them for what they really are; livestock.

I have never met anyone, be they anti or pro, who advocates torture. Death isn't pretty in whatever form it takes, but my concern is for the animals and their welfare BEFORE they get dead, not what's done with the carcass afterwards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## herdbound

Missy May said:


> It was a ill-faited attempt at pointing out that excess meat is not a "justification" to continue w status quo....assuming one "draws the line" somewhere (i.e., no to human meat). Ah, it isn't the first time one of my "attempts" was misunderstood. You're point is well taken. Thank you.


It does have to do with culture as well. People of other cultures find it acceptable to eat dogs. You can buy skewered rats in some cultures on the street just like we in the US can buy hotdogs. People in some cultures eat monkeys...I think it is disgusting, personally. But people in India would find pulling through a McDonalds and ordering a double cheeseburger not only disgusting but sacrilegious...yet we in the US do it often daily. I understand completely where you are coming from. I am not so bad as to believe in "fur people"  I see them as animals - but in scientific classifications human beings are animals too. We are different than other animals because we have the capability to do deductive reasoning, advanced problem solving and come equipped with "emotions" that other animals may not possess. Do I think this makes us better? No. I think that it places more responsibility on us to use our "advanced" minds to treat other living creatures in a humane & ethical way instead of using it to their demises.


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## Missy May

Speed Racer said:


> Missy, I'm not sure where you think anyone is advocating equine slaughter 'just because'. If there wasn't a market for it, it wouldn't exist.
> 
> All of those civilizations and cultures you mentioned ate horses. It's only been a very recent phenomenon that certain people have decided that horses are 'more special' than any other meat animal, and use that excuse to try and infringe on other peoples' rights.
> 
> Your argument about eating people, and that Westernized civilizations don't eat horse because of their cultural values was wrong on far too many levels, which makes you appear as woefully uneducated on the topic. I can't take someone seriously who doesn't use rational, factual arguments.
> 
> Herdbound is correct; eating meat isn't going to stop regardless of how many hysterical, emotional, badly thought out arguments people throw out there. For every person who sees horses as fur people, there will be 10 others who see them for what they really are; livestock.
> 
> I have never met anyone, be they anti or pro, who advocates torture. Death isn't pretty in whatever form it takes, but my concern is for the animals and their welfare BEFORE they get dead, not what's done with the carcass afterwards.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Well, forgive my ignorance, but attacking one's education is not a factual argument style I am familiar with. Implying I am hysterical, emotional and unable to present a "thought out argument" on the basis I posed a philosophical question is equally foreign to me...again, forgive my ignorance.... I am not accustome to engaging in conversations with such superior intellect.
At the extreme risk of embarrassing myself, as you put it, and showing my ignorance of history, I must say, industrialization, mechanization and mass transport changed things for the horse just a teeny tiny bit starting around the late 1800's in the US. Horses went from being very valuable methods of transport and work (which acted as an effective control of their breeding) to being mostly for pleasure. The very mechanized machinery that replaced them in the fields meant commodities were more abundant than ever - and cheap. Which meant, people could raise more horses! I realize this is an over-simplification, and probably never actually happened b/c I am so ignorant...but lets just throw the poor girl a crumb and say...yeah, it happened. Horses were then increasingly bred WILLY NILLY. That is what I have a problem with...completely preventable breeding of unwanted undesirable stock.
Yes, many cultures here and there ate horses. Mongols and icelanders being examples of cultures intimately involved w the horse...but they slaughtered out of what they deemed necessary and they practice(d) controlled breeding...and they could not purchase vast quantities of hay on the futures market or at the local feed store. So, today's horse slaughter in the US and like examples are not comparable - to the point, they are irrelevent.
Historically speaking on this very thread, I have not advocated NO slaughter, I have advocated contolled breeding by license or some other regulatory method. None of which would have any effect on the freedoms of responsible people wanting to breed sire "x" to dam "y" for a specific reason. It would not eliminate slaughter, it would reduce the number of horses that are unnecessarily slaughtered.
Demand is not an argument I find compelling. Heroin is one of the most stable commodities in the US, hence it is in demand. There is a huge demand for human transplant organs...should we not infringe on people's "freedoms" to regulate the sale of same? There is a demand for things unspeakable...should demand for them prohibit laws against the sale of them? I don't know, I am looking to your superior intellect and factual based well though out argument for the answer. I personally do not think "demand" is a good enough excuse to not regulate horse "production" (i.e., preventing, to the degree possible, unwanted and undesirable stock). 
People worry and worry about losing their "freedoms"...with the commodities exhange modernization act...you can consider them - gone. No riots over that. But regulated equine breeding...whoa, that is just to much!


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## Cherie

Horse meat was available in small meat markets when I was a kid and even in some of the big stores. It was common during and after WW II and was available in many stores until the mid 60s. It was eaten everywhere before WW II. 

The first 'rescues' I saved and trained in the 60s, I rescued from the Columbine Packing Company located on the east side of Denver. Yes, I saw them killed (no big deal and not abusive) and paid the invoice ticket price plus $10.00 for the ones I bought and tried. Most cost between $50.00 and $75.00. Some made good horses and some had to go back to Columbine. [If you're familiar with Denver, it was located on North Havana when that was out in the country.]

The Crown Prince Pet Food Company located in North Platte, Nebraska was a big horse buyer in the 60s and 70s.

There was a small slaughter house that operated in Rush Springs, Oklahoma until 1983 or 1984. It processed horses for zoo meat and greyhound meat. They sold meat for people until the early 70s when inspection became too hard to achieve for a small packer.

There are many Americans now of Asian and Eastern European origin that will buy it here now if it was available. 'We' don't eat a lot of goat meat either, but it is the most commonly eaten meat in the World -- more than chicken, pork or beef.

No one should be so closed minded as to think that the world revolves around their beliefs. Horses are livestock. That does not mean that some individuals will not see them and treat them as pets, but at the end of the day, they are still hoofed animals raised as livestock by most of the World.

To compare eating a class of livestock that one personally does not want to eat to cannibalism is pretty far out there -- kind of like giving them human emotions and 'rights'. No one is saying that anybody HAS to eat their horse or send it to slaughter. It is just not their right to tell others what they can eat or do with their horse that THEY OWN.


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## Missy May

herdbound said:


> I am not so bad as to believe in "fur people"  I see them as animals - but in scientific classifications human beings are animals too. We are different than other animals because we have the capability to do deductive reasoning, advanced problem solving and come equipped with "emotions" that other animals may not possess.


I don't believe in "fur people", haha. But until proven otherwise, I believe many other species capable of "human level" deductive reasoning, advanced problem solving, etc.,. I have no "measurable irrefutable" proof to the contrary. But, it is only accepted as an unfounded "belief" in current thinking, not simply as an "unknown" - as it should be IMHO. The IQ of parrots, for example, has not changed - our understanding and effort to measure it -has. The "accepted" intelligence of parrots went from "limited bird brain intelligence" to highly intelligent in a few decades. I believe, if something has not been and cannot be accurately measured by current known methods...then it cannot be quantified. When I am not getting my point accross to a horse, I think, "if i were in your body, and the human spoke russian, how could they communicate 'this' to me such that I got it?" My "answer" very often works...and it requires that I, in effect, assumed a horse to be my intellectual equal...which could mean my IQ is "as low" as a horse's IQ is assumed to be.  It is proof of nothing, mind you...I am just saying "my belief" frees me from "not believing"...and it works.
But I don't want to be catagorized as a fur people person!!!:-( Just...odd, maybe.:lol:


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## herdbound

I agree just because their intelligence is "different" than ours does not mean that it is less or more...it is just different. They do seem to be intelligent in my opinion there was just an outstanding thread done on this by Cherie on the forum. I do believe that even though they may not be able to sit down and do algebra they are very capable of learning, remembering, and problem solving. I have had a few horses figure out ways to open doors, untie ropes, beat fencing attempts ect. So they had to do some sort of deductive reasoning and planning. With all that said there is one thing I am sure of they do have the ability to feel pain & experience stress & anxiety. Both pain and anxiety are unpleasant experiences for any life form...if we can spare them that...why wouldn't we?


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## Druydess

Missy May said:


> No, I was thinking more along the lines of that which shaped all the history, norms, laws, and culture of Europe and its expansion.... greece/rome/christianity. But it is defined in many different way...I was just defining it the way most ignorant naive hill billies w classical educations define it.
> 
> It was a phylosophical question. That is all. It tests the logic of "excess meat"...not meant to offend.


Good point Missy...good to know another has a bead on "Western" mores and society... and yes--- if you think eating your pets is acceptable-- human consumption really isn't that far off..


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## Druydess

Missy May said:


> Well, forgive my ignorance, but attacking one's education is not a factual argument style I am familiar with. Implying I am hysterical, emotional and unable to present a "thought out argument" on the basis I posed a philosophical question is equally foreign to me...again, forgive my ignorance.... I am not accustome to engaging in conversations with such superior intellect.
> At the extreme risk of embarrassing myself, as you put it, and showing my ignorance of history, I must say, industrialization, mechanization and mass transport changed things for the horse just a teeny tiny bit starting around the late 1800's in the US. Horses went from being very valuable methods of transport and work (which acted as an effective control of their breeding) to being mostly for pleasure. The very mechanized machinery that replaced them in the fields meant commodities were more abundant than ever - and cheap. Which meant, people could raise more horses! I realize this is an over-simplification, and probably never actually happened b/c I am so ignorant...but lets just throw the poor girl a crumb and say...yeah, it happened. Horses were then increasingly bred WILLY NILLY. That is what I have a problem with...completely preventable breeding of unwanted undesirable stock.
> Yes, many cultures here and there ate horses. Mongols and icelanders being examples of cultures intimately involved w the horse...but they slaughtered out of what they deemed necessary and they practice(d) controlled breeding...and they could not purchase vast quantities of hay on the futures market or at the local feed store. So, today's horse slaughter in the US and like examples are not comparable - to the point, they are irrelevent.
> Historically speaking on this very thread, I have not advocated NO slaughter, I have advocated contolled breeding by license or some other regulatory method. None of which would have any effect on the freedoms of responsible people wanting to breed sire "x" to dam "y" for a specific reason. It would not eliminate slaughter, it would reduce the number of horses that are unnecessarily slaughtered.
> Demand is not an argument I find compelling. Heroin is one of the most stable commodities in the US, hence it is in demand. There is a huge demand for human transplant organs...should we not infringe on people's "freedoms" to regulate the sale of same? There is a demand for things unspeakable...should demand for them prohibit laws against the sale of them? I don't know, I am looking to your superior intellect and factual based well though out argument for the answer. I personally do not think "demand" is a good enough excuse to not regulate horse "production" (i.e., preventing, to the degree possible, unwanted and undesirable stock).
> People worry and worry about losing their "freedoms"...with the commodities exhange modernization act...you can consider them - gone. No riots over that. But regulated equine breeding...whoa, that is just to much!


Don't let it get to you Missy. Those who cast stones usually have the most reason to be stoned themselves. Debates garner intelligent discourse. Arguments inspire juvenile nonsense. Don't be derailed by the latter. You are neither ignorant, nor uneducated. Don't be dragged down by either.


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## Derry girl

Speed Racer said:


> What do you define as 'Western culture'? The UK? They eat horse.


Am not an expert on this subject, so correct me if am wrong, but as a "westerner" Iv never heard of horse been served for dinner in the UK or Ireland. There are alot of slaughter houses but as far as am aware most of the meat is shipped to France for human consumtpion.


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## kevinshorses

Are the French prohibited from living in Great Britain? What about the north Africans and muslims?


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## herdbound

Regardless of "whom" is eating them...the thought for some us is just disgusting...that is our opinion. I do caution you though that going off of the main issue at hand can result in hours of ugly debate that will get everyone nowhere except upset and take us farther away from the issue at hand.

As I stated earlier in this thread, people of other cultures eat many things that us as Americans find absolutely unacceptable. Bugs, raw & rotten meats, rats, dogs & cats, and in some primitive tribes even human meat is consumed. There is a slippery slope...that I think ethically we should try to prevent ourselves from sliding down. Even though many of us may not like to admit to it...our diets are based upon Religious beliefs. As I stated earlier in India, eating beef would be considered unacceptable & sacrilegious. The US was founded on Christianity, the Bible clearly states we are not to eat any meat unless it has a split hoof AND chews a cud. That is why pigs are not on the menu for people of Jewish decent. Although they have a split hoof they do not chew a cud. This would also take horses off the menu for many sharing this religious belief. BUT as we all know in America we also have the freedom of religion...sooooo it just comes down to what is acceptable by the majority of people in our country. I do think that IF horses were raised like cattle for the purpose of being consumed and were governed by the USDA as cattle are to make sure they are not subjected to chemicals, hormones, and ect...people in America may have decided to eat them. Being that a horse has a gestational period of 11 months and it takes around 2 years to have an almost fully grown animal...waiting three years to "harvest" them they may not be a profitable animal for meat. This debate, whether it is legit to eat a horse could rage on and on and on if you fuel the fire. I personally along with many others would never eat a horse. That is just our opinion...that is our right...and I do hope I never see a time in America that horses do start to be raised for consumption.

BUT to really take our horses off the plates of wealthy Europeans what we need to do is PREVENT the need for these animals to ever go to the slaughterhouse in the first place. Promote responsible ownership by enforcing and lobbying for stronger legal consequences for "irresponsible owners" who are guilty of neglect/abuse. Try to educate back yard breeders about bringing more unwanted horses into this downed market...much like the ad campaigns for the spay & neuter campaigns for dogs and cats have been effective...we need to apply this over to horses...AND go after the largest suppliers of mass amounts of "unwanted" horses as in the racing industry and their unquenchable thirst for 2 and 3 year old runners. 

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" to REALLY get this under control it is IMPERATIVE and only logical to try to curtail the numbers going.


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## Derry girl

kevinshorses said:


> Are the French prohibited from living in Great Britain? What about the north Africans and muslims?


When did I say anything like that? 
Of course theres many different nationalites, I think thats a bit of a silly thing to say.

Back to the point... 
I simply said that Iv never heard of horse meat been served as a meal either here or in england... I havent seen it in the local butchers...but I am sure if someone wants it they will no where to go but as far as I am aware most is shipped to France.. and then on-through the rest of the continent.


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## Cherie

> Regardless of "whom" is eating them...the thought for some us is just disgusting...that is our opinion.


No one is telling you or anyone else that finds it 'disgusting' that they have to eat them or send them to slaughter. Personally, I do not send horses to a slaughter nor would I eat one. But I am not so presumptuous nor narcissistic as to think that I have the right to impose my likes, dislikes or religious dietary laws on anyone else.

By the way, pork and other meats ruled unclean and forbidden in Judaic Law are not forbidden by New Testament Christianity. As far an I know, pork is only forbidden by Islamic and Judaic Dietary Laws.

Horsemeat is available (and popular) in many Canadian restaurants and very high priced. I believe it is called 'Tartare' in restaurants in Quebec.


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## Piaffe

Yep...I am pro slaughter...


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## Missy May

Cherie said:


> To compare eating a class of livestock that one personally does not want to eat to cannibalism is pretty far out there -- kind of like giving them human emotions and 'rights'. No one is saying that anybody HAS to eat their horse or send it to slaughter. It is just not their right to tell others what they can eat or do with their horse that THEY OWN.


 I am not completely anti-slaughter by the way, just FYI. I have made it pretty clear I would like to see steps taken to reduce the number of horses unnecessarily sent to slaughter...not eliminate it all together.

Scientifically speaking...protein is protien, meat is meat in the manner it is digested..protien structure and content varies between animal class a bit - but not significantly. My point was, if excess meat is the only basis for slaughter - then why draw ANY line. Cannabalism is taking it to extremes to make a point? Which part, the emotional, the nutritional, or the "too much freedom" part?


Steps should be taken to limit unnecessary slaughter. The key word there is "unnecessary". And I am totally w herd, no animal should ever suffer during any slaughter process. I go back to chemical warfare .... it is prohibited by treaties in a WAR theater where the idea is to kill people - but I am guessing it is the manner in which people will SUFFER that was at hand when the treaties were signed. Taking it to extremes again?


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## Speed Racer

Cannibalism is a health risk. Eating your own kind, especially their brain matter, can cause something similar to Mad Cow disease in humans. It's been documented among aboriginal tribes who practice it.

So there's that, even if you want to ignore the moral and ethical taboos, as well as thinking murder is okay.

I'm not sure what you define as 'unnecessary'. Obviously supply and demand play a big part in how many animals, not just horses, are consumed.


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## Really Ride

Yeesh this just goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on......................ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! I've been to slaughter houses, not pretty, but it is a sad industry.


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## Missy May

Speed Racer said:


> Cannibalism is a health risk. Eating your own kind, especially their brain matter, can cause something similar to Mad Cow disease in humans. It's been documented among aboriginal tribes who practice it.
> 
> So there's that, even if you want to ignore the moral and ethical taboos, as well as thinking murder is okay.
> 
> I'm not sure what you define as 'unnecessary'. Obviously supply and demand play a big part in how many animals, not just horses, are consumed.


 
Okay, so its for health reasons. The data you reference presumabley was collected from cultures that practice cannabalism. There are many people that are deemed "unfit" that are executed on a yearly basis around the globe, so no need for murder, however, since at least one culture is known to practice it (demand)...I will concede that it could lead to that (murder).

I personally define "unnecessary slaughter" as slaughtering a perfectly healthy horse.

Yes, supply and demand determines everything pretty much. But, as with transplant organs for which there is a huge demand, the supply is often regulated to protect _all_ of those involved. 

I strongly feel undesirable horses should not be bred. I believe that if licensing were required and one had to simply identify what traits/abilities they sought in the "planned offspring", why, and why they felt the breeding of sire x to dam y would produce said traits - as well as be advised of the associated costs, longevity, and potential sale value, it would reduce the number of "undesirable" horses being "created". Even if NO license could be denied...it would raise awareness ten-fold.

In an economic downturn, be it on a national scale or individual, healthy undesirable (e.g., glaring confirmation defects or an untrained, grade adult horse) are the most likely candidates of the "healthy sort" to go to slaughter. I call it "unnecessary" since ordinarily a bit of effort goes into having a mare bred or keeping a stud... standing at stud...or not. Most breedings are not accidental....so breeding undesirable stock is _easily_ avoided. 

Registrations to a large degree already "self police", and for all intents and purposes achieve the same goal (i.e., to not produce undesirable horses) to the degree possible. 

It would neither hinder people's "rights" nor stop slaughter. But, it would _reduce_ the number of horses that are "unnecessarily" slaughtered. 

And, I am with herd, no animal should ever suffer at slaughter. I am also w PETA, keep it in the US so it can be regulated. As much as I wish it were not practiced, it is, and it cannot be stopped - but it can be regulated.


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## herdbound

Animal breeding of ANY kind in it's best and purest form was to develop a better animal than it's parents and maintain standards of confirmation, temperament, hardiness and general wellness . Too much breeding now is about mass producing animals, no matter how muttled the gene pool becomes, to produce more babies to make more money. Good breeding is imperative to the prosperity of our horses. It used to be people took pride in the animals they produced, a certain name on a pedigree meant something spectacular. Anymore it seems like names don't mean much at all because all kinds of horses have been bred to this and that you can't even tell by looking at papers if you got something good...breeding standards went down hill at least in my opinion. 

As far as all the other stuff that is being debated...truth is human beings in a crisis situation will resort to any form of survival I guess. I mean in Russia they used to have a saying...be afraid of the fat man. When everyone you knew was starving to death and a certain individual was unaffected by the dire starvation that inflicted everyone else...it was said he was feasting on people. People who would die in the streets would often have their rumps roughly removed by others who had resorted to this. People can do anything imaginable in my book and they can also craft a very viable excuse no matter what their behavior may be. Thats where "ethical committees" come into play...to make decisions for people who can't seem to make them on their own - for whatever reason. There has to be a standard enforced across the board from birth to death to ensure humane and ethical treatment of animals.


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## Cherie

You're living in a dream-world.

We can't even enforce the laws that are on the books!

We can't even stop child abuse!

We can't tell drug addict and welfare bums that they can't have 10 children!

And YOU ALL think we can take away property rights and tell horse owners AND ENFORCE breeding bans on their privately owned stock when we cannot do any of the above?

Get real. It is strictly a market based decision. It is governed by the laws of 'supply and demand'. At this time, no one in the US is breeding for eating purposes. [Iceland has for many years but we do not.] No one plans on selling a foal to the killer buyer. Half of the people that take a horse to the local sale do not even realize that there is a good chance that the killer buyer will be the only one to bid on the horses they are having to sell. [You can't fix stupid.]

When the market crashed (a very good market I might add), it has taken several years to 'clear out' the over-supply'. That is a natural thing.

People HAVE bred far fewer horses since the market crash. In 2010, the AQHA alone registered fewer horses that at any time since 1972. That is the breeders responding to the market -- like it should be.

Ten years ago the market was VERY HIGH for nearly every class and kind of horses. There were still 125,000 horses going to slaughter -- right here is the US. There will always be that number or more of horses that are unwanted, unusable, and not bid on at any sale or will not find a private person to sell them to. There will always be that number of horses that need to be 'disposed' of. The killer buyers are the 'bottom feeders' that get rid of the junk and the excess horses. Thank goodness they are there. There is certainly no one else that will take all of them in -- Never has been and never will be.

Had slaughter not been banned in the US and had horses not lost their value because of it, I think there would have been more than 300,000 a year sent to slaughter just like there was in the recession and 'horse GLUT' of the 90s. Instead, the others were starved to death, abandoned or killed by their owners or a Vet and a 'FEW' were 'SAVED' by the rescuers -- usually the least useful ones. 

[We 'retired' several that we are still feeding, still have several young mares we are training now with the help of an apprentice trainer and we killed several older mares instead of sending them to Mexico. It has probably cost us $100,000.00 or more to NOT send horses to Mexico.] Not very many breeders are so inclined or have the money to keep and feed the horses that they cannot use or sell. Our horses are lucky to be alive and fat.


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## kevinshorses

I think it would help to define the terms being used by those opposed to slaughter.

Backyard breeder- Everyone that breeds horses except me.

Unnecessary breedings- See backyard breeder.

Irresponsible owner- Everyone but me

Poorly bred horses- All of them but mine

Unwanted horses- Myth

Necessary slaughter- Myth

Unnecessary slaughter- Any slaughter

Humane slaughter- See necessary slaughter

Inhumane slaughter- Any practice that ends the life of an animal

Vegetarian- Unlightened human unwilly to kill inocent animals to survive

Animal rights activist- See vegetarian


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## herdbound

hahaha Kevin thats funny.  I actually got a chuckle out of it...a REAL lol. I am a vegetarian...and I am enlightened. I don't eat meat because I don't want to smell like a predator that is my primary reasoning behind that...just to have better get along with unstarted horses. I don't like factory farming either. I grew up on a farm and I am all for people sustaining themselves by raising livestock to eat. I am all for eating meat. IF I didn't work with horses I would eat meat as well...BUT it would be cattle, chickens and hogs I raised here. I may little "strange" in my beliefs...but they work for me. I do have an open mind...I understand there is always going to be excess numbers of horses I just believe in finding a compromise in the situation. An animals life can be ended BEFORE it even knows what has happened. My dad worked in the slaughterhouse for regular animals and yesterday we were talking bout that. I told him I had a problem with it. He detailed how they used electricity on the hogs, and the bang stick on the cattle & sheep. I said dad both of those don't kill the animal...they are means by which to stun it before it is hooked and then the real killing happens by slicing their throats and having them bleed out. Thats the stuff I have a problem with. I think it is inhumane to start butchering an animal before it is dead. Often they are stunned, hung up, necks sliced, and disemboweled while alive. That just seems unecessary to me.


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## herdbound

* 'You can learn anything with these three words – observe, remember, and compare. Beyond that, learn to adjust to fit the situation." Tom Dorrance*

I admire him as a trainer and a person. This quote is appropriate for working horses and life in general...I think it sums up my stance on this issue.


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## Cherie

> I don't eat meat because I don't want to smell like a predator that is my primary reasoning behind that...just to have better get along with unstarted horses.


For the life of me I do not get where this comes from. I am very much a meat eater as are all of my horsemen friends. I get along very well with young horses and all of the rest of them. In a few minutes I have them following me around and have them all greet me at the gate. [I am not the one that feeds them.] I do not know what I could do that would make it any easier. Most people tell me that I have a 'better way' with horses than anyone they have ever seen. 

So, do you have documented proof of this? Do you have proof from studies done by people that have no agenda other than to find the truth?


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## Cherie

For one last time I will address some of the mis-information and lies put out by the animal right activists as truth.

This is what the AAEP licensed Veterinarians have to say about horse slaughter by captive bolt. It also explains the TRUTH about Mexican Slaughter Plants. I would rather believe them than some misinformed liar with an agenda and the lies these misinformed liars write on 'Wikipedia'.

Here is the article that I referred to before -- written by Equine Veterinarians.

It pretty much refutes all of the lies and arguments we have listened to here.



> JAVMA Magazine Article​ March 1, 2009​ *Horse slaughter conditions in Mexico explored by AAEP group*
> Debate over the practice continues in Congress Back
> Though nearly two years have passed since the last horse processing plant closed in the United States, horses continue being shipped from the United States to slaughterhouses in Mexico and Canada.
> Looking at 2008 Department of Agriculture figures, close to 80,000 horses from the United States traveled to Mexico for slaughter and approximately 40,000 went to Canada. The estimated total of 120,000 is less than the 140,000 figure from 2007.
> "That's still a tremendous amount of horses," said Dr. Timothy Cordes, a senior staff veterinarian for equine programs with the USDA Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service. He also noted that the final numbers won't be available until the end of March. The USDA's numbers are based on the number of owner/shipper certificates corroborated with other sources.
> To get a better idea of how the Mexican horse slaughter industry operates, a delegation representing the American Association of Equine Practitioners arranged a tour of two Mexican slaughter facilities in the central Mexican city of Zacatecas last fall. Both are federally inspected, but one meets European standards and the other, which is locally owned and run, meets Mexican standards.
> "If you look at it from the hard perspective of the meat industry, they're in the business to produce meat. They don't want an injured or down or stressed horse any more than they have to, because it affects the meat quality,"
> —DR. TOM R. LENZ, FORMER AAEP PRESIDENT
> AAEP past presidents Drs. Tom R. Lenz and Doug G. Corey, as well as an international member of the AAEP board of directors, Dr. Sergio Salinas, visited the area Nov. 9-10. They first toured one of the two South American-owned plants that operate under European Union and Mexican slaughter regulations. Five federal Mexican veterinary inspectors work at the plant in addition to three company veterinarians. In all, 200 are employed there. About 1,000 horses are processed a week; half are Mexican and the rest from the United States. Mexican and U.S. horses are kept separate during travel but are processed at the same facilities.
> "All of the American horses arrive in sealed trailers," Dr. Lenz said, noting that the horses aren't unloaded or sold anywhere, but go straight from the border to the plant. A federal seal is placed on the horses at the border. They are then shipped for 10 to 12 hours to one of the two federal inspection type, or TIF, plants in Zacatecas. "They say they could make it in eight hours but choose 10 to 12 because they arrive in better condition," Dr. Lenz said.
> On arrival at the processing plant, a federal Mexican veterinarian cuts the seal. Any horses severely injured in transport are euthanized.
> 
> 
> A delegation representing the AAEP, including Dr. Tom R. Lenz (center), took a tour of two horse slaughterhouses Nov. 9-10 in Zacatecas, Mexico. Dr. Lenz said the plants were well-run, and workers killed the horses humanely by captive bolt.
> The AAEP group met with the manager of the plant and was allowed free access throughout the building, where they spent three to four hours.
> "They allowed us to look at everything and take pictures. Even in the United States you are seldom allowed to take pictures at a processing plant," Dr. Lenz said.
> Dr. Lenz, who is also chairman of the Unwanted Horse Coalition, looked at the horses in the paddocks where most stay for a week or so. He said the pens looked clean and the horses looked good, although he classified them as "slimmer." On a scale ascending from one to nine, as Dr. Lenz put it, he saw many fours and fives. He could tell they were slimmer than the ones he saw at a former plant in Fort Worth, Texas.
> "They told us (that's the kind of) horses they're buying now," Dr. Lenz said, noting that is the case because owners are holding onto their horses for a while, even when they can't afford them.
> Plant officials told Dr. Lenz they see horses at sale barns too thin for meat processing. They also noted the price of horses has gone down; meanwhile, the cost to ship a horse from Morton, Texas, to Zacatecas stays at about $200.
> "(The shipping cost) drives down what they're willing to pay for these horses," Dr. Lenz said.
> Before processing, workers move the horses with flags rather than whips. One at a time the horses go into stocks. Once in place, a hydraulic bar pushes the horse forward while a wedge-shaped stainless steel device comes under the chin and cradles the head. This limits the horse's movement, Dr. Lenz said, which better facilitates placement of the captive device.
> Dr. Lenz watched a couple dozen horses being killed by captive bolt, with which he said the employees were "extremely accurate." The skulls were then inspected for glanders and the carcasses randomly tested for drug residues and parasites in the meat as well as _Escherichia coli_ and _Salmonella_ infections.
> Employees wear white coveralls, hats, gloves, masks, and hairnets while working, in addition to scrubbing their boots before coming in and out of the processing area.
> The facility ships the meat to Japan and Europe for human consumption. "If you look at it from the hard perspective of the meat industry, they're in the business to produce meat. They don't want an injured or down or stressed horse any more than they have to, because it affects the meat quality," Dr. Lenz said.
> Other parts from the horse do not go to waste. The hides are sent to Italy, hair from the mane and tail goes to China for paintbrushes, the small intestines go to Egypt for sausage casings, the tendons go to Japan for human consumption, and the hooves and tail (without the hair) to a rendering plant.
> "(The plant) was an extremely clean, well-run plant. ... From a veterinary perspective, the animals were handled well," he said.
> The other processing plant the group visited was locally owned by a Mexican company that solely dealt with Mexican horses. Sellers, arriving in their pickup trucks and trailers, would bring their horses to the plant two or three at a time. This plant processes only about 280 horses a week and has 12 employees. A veterinarian wasn't on site; however, one did come once a week to inspect the meat and facility, Dr. Lenz said.
> This processing plant also kills the horses by captive bolt, though the stocks were not as sophisticated as at the other plant.
> Overall, the group's assessment of the trip concluded that both plants use captive bolt in a humane and efficient manner, and the horses were well-cared-for and properly handled.


Vet Schools also teach that a captive bolt is one of the accepted methods of euthanasia. It is as acceptable as chemical solutions made for the purpose.


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## Missy May

Yes, definitions are good. Such as a page from the pro-slaughter handbook:


Slaughter in general: let no horse be spared so I can have the freedom to spare no horse.

Compromise: Not an option, "saughter in general" is the only correct thinking b/c anything else is communism.

All anti-slaughter individuals: Commies!!! Have no knowledge of horses. A threat to the very foundations of our freedoms.

All pro-slaughter individuals: Constitutional and equine experts - freedom fighters! Human rights activists. 

Laws: Better to have none since some are bad. 

PRC: good commies b/c they set a good example by eating horse meat and have a long history of extremely cruel slaughter practices - unfettered by nasty regulations, are to be admired and emulated. 

Life: St. Frances was a complete idiot, only people matter - except anti-slaughter folks.

Logic: Must be dictated by proslaughter - or else we will loose our freedoms. 


since I HOPE you were being sarcastic, Kevin....I hope you are feeling charitable today, and allow me the same "freedom"!


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## Missy May

Okay, Jane Fonda.


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## kevinshorses

herdbound said:


> * 'You can learn anything with these three words – observe, remember, and compare. Beyond that, learn to adjust to fit the situation." Tom Dorrance*
> 
> I admire him as a trainer and a person. This quote is appropriate for working horses and life in general...I think it sums up my stance on this issue.


Would you care to take a guess at what Tom dorrances stance on horse slaughter was? Or Ray Hunts? I know because I asked.


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## herdbound

Cherie...It is very hard for humans to see the world as horses do. Our senses and a horses senses are extremely different. Their sense of smell is amazing. It has been calculated that, if you could spread out the sensory mucous membrane of the horse’s nasal cavity, it would be big enough to cover the entire animal’s body surface. Attempts have been made to assess how many times greater the horse’s sense of smell is than our own, with estimates ranging up to the hundreds of thousands there is no "definite answer to this" but we can with complete safety and surety state that it is many, many, many, times greater than ours. The information provided by the horse’s sense of smell could be expected to be nothing short of fantastic, but the horse takes even this a stage further with its built-in scent analysing laboratory, The Organ of Jacobsen, (Vomeronasal organ). This is also present in some predators such as the lion, but not in people. It is believed that the Vomeronasal organ allows the horse to trap and analyse smells for the presence and identification of pheromones, which are chemical scent communication signals. Horses can detect fear and other emotions of another horse by smelling the hormone-like secretions in sweat and urine known as pheromones. Pheromones also are used as sexual signals. 

An example of this is the Flehmen posture:
The lip-curled, nostril-clamped facial expression is called the Flehmen posture, and it enables the horse to better interpret olfactory information. The stallion uses this sense the most, but any horse encountering an unusual or unfamiliar smell may do it. A horse uses smell even before sight in determining what is going on around it. They will check the air to detect even the slightest hint of danger unseen, or coming towards them. 

They are constantly using their olfactory sense to make decisions for safeties sake. Sometimes people think a horse is acting up or being disrespectful because it decides NOT to head out a certain way BUT truth be known horses know certain things that we don't because their sense of smell is far superior to our own. They can smell danger they cannot yet see.

Now with that said...I chose to eat a plant based diet to help the horses understand I am not a predator. Being that the first thing a horse will do when meeting someone or something new is smell it & analyze it in ways you and I are uncapable of because we don't even have the organs to do so if we wanted too. They then make a decision on whether this new thing is friend or foe and that has alot to do with what the have "smelled" on the thing. Since they rely so strongly on this sense...I find no reason not to use it to our advantage. I removed meat from my diet that was my choice. I don't go around asking or telling everyone this is the only way to go. I think it personally has helped me alot because I am not triggering a defensive response because of the smell my body is excreting. Just my way of doing things...I don't think it has to be everyones. Horses have been trained for eons by people who smell very much like predators to them and they have had successful results. I just prefer to gain every advantage I can in making the horse feel as comfortable as possible with the things I am going to be doing to it...so if it helps to lessen its fears that I am going to eat it...then yes I will pass on a cheeseburger. I also do not wear perfume. Wash my clothes in unscented laundry detergent and clean my training equipment only when absolutely & positively necessary with only all natural detergents. I am a little fanatical about it...yes. But that sense of smell is their first impression of me and I want to make the best first impression I can.


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## Cherie

And your documentation that this is a proven fact???

I think it could just be one more thing that makes real horse people think that animal rights activists are all nuts or terrorists.

Facts and documentation do not figure into their arguments but they try to tell all their lies and suppositions to others like they are facts -- kind of like the documentation I copied that showed that everything about slaughter as told by the Animal Rights activists is false.


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## herdbound

I read the article from Dr. Lenz you posted. I could say that a plant that was expecting a visitor may very well have changed the norm of it's practices ESPECIALLY when the findings from such visit were going to be reported to an audience. I like the video's where they catch these people with their pants down...when they are NOT expecting visitors...when their true colors come shining through.

As I stated before this argument will rage on and on and on...I do what I can...thats about all I can do. I have based many of my facts, opinions on the two main "studies" the one from US Congressional Accountability Office of the Cessation of Horse Slaughter AND The Economic Impact Study....these were very broad based studies that covered many years of documented data...they are unbiased but from what I collected from them I chose to say I am anti-slaughter. Anti-suffering. 

I have also learned from dealing with pro-slaughter people they are quick to sling the "proverbial mud" at you. Cover you with labels...such as animal rights activist, communists, terrorist, at the mention of certain trigger words...such as compassion, suffering, responsibility...and veer you way off track of the true issues because I have STILL to see any documented study done over a substantial time period that prooves these animals are being treated humanely. What I have found is a multitude of organizations who have placed people in these plants to document via video and audio surveillance that is is very inhumane treatment that these animals receive. Then the pro-slaughter people retort with "I don't care if I can see it, I don't care if I can hear it, I don't care that the same treatment has been video taping for months in two different countries...your a bunch of communistic, looney Peta supporting fanatics so these videos...recordings and evidence are all null and void"


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## herdbound

I am not a nut, nor a terrorist. I am a human being who has a very compassionate heart. And I feel that as a human being if I allow myself to be silenced or to be bullied into changing what in my heart I KNOW is wrong...I am just as guilty as the man in the mexican slaughterhouse stabbing at the spinal cord of a horse until FINALLY I hit something important enough for the horse to collapse in paralysis...NOT DEATH...to be butchered ALIVE. To condone this behavior I am just as guilty as he.


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## Speed Racer

Now, now herdbound, you're resorting to stereotypes of pro slaughter people, and yet want the stereotypes to stop about the antis? I really thought you were above that sort of thing. :?

Regardless of whether you not eating meat, not wearing perfume, and using scent free detergents actually works, _you_ believe doing those things helps you with your rapport with animals. I see nothing wrong with that, even if it's nothing more than anecdotal evidence based on personal feelings.

At least you're trying to live based on your own personal values and courage of your convictions, unlike so many of the antis. Screaming about the 'poor horsies and their hooorrriiibbblllleeee suffering' while stuffing a Big Mac in their faces. 
_
All_ of us, anti, pro, or anti-anti, are against the unnecessary suffering of animals, whether or not they end up as meat. The problem is that we refuse to acknowledge our similarities, but would rather attack each other for our differences. We will never make progress that way, and throwing out insults only muddies the water further.

It's not an all or none concept; there are grey areas, and anyone who is truly concerned about the welfare of animals knows that there are problems with the system. Nobody, pros included, is blind or stupid enough to think that the system couldn't use an overhauling. Will it get done? Not if we as horse owners, antis AND pros, can't come together to show a united front.


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## herdbound

This is a video done by the news...not some fanatical group...just the news reporting on horse slaughter in canada...


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## herdbound

Dr. Grandon who is the leading expert in the world for humane slaughter and who was responsible for auditing these facilities states in that video exactly what I said .... she says when she comes to make a visit everything is always working perfectly...then these videos come out and it makes her angry because the plants are doing everything wrong...why can't they just do it right? why is that so hard?

There are differences in standards but "wilfull acts of abuse" are not acceptable

She suggests third party video auditing, so that they can be watched at anytime, randomly so these people do what they need to do. I agree 100%


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## Missy May

I won't watch the video b/c it might upset me. Just can't handle it. But, I myself prefer objective evidence....it tends to lend to the truth.


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## herdbound

Missy May said:


> I won't watch the video b/c it might upset me. Just can't handle it. But, I myself prefer objective evidence....it tends to lend to the truth.


That video excludes the harsher parts of the death the animals recieve BUT I would suggest you watch it because it does have a lot of useful information about the status of the vets on site and Dr. Temple Grandin who as I stated, sets the standard for slaughter makes some outstanding points. And in my opinion if anyone in the world would have a reason to be pro-slaughter it would be her. It is her job to regulate this. She is THEE authority on the matter for the US and other countries...so it's worth the watch just based on that.

here is her site:
Temple Grandin's Web Page


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## Really Ride

LOL Herdbound is a vegetarian because she doesn't want to "Smell" like a predator, bet she also pratices the oxymoron training "Natural Horsemanship" because after all she is no longer a "Predator" because she abstains from meat. So funny and far off from reality. Humans are predators whether we eat meat or veggies. It's in our DNA/natures we cannot xtract ourselves from that. Believing that you are not a predator because you abstain from meat is about the same as Believing the statement "Natural Horsemanship". Natural Horsemanship is an oxymoron, (a contradictory statement) this is because it is not and never will be "Natural" for horses, (prey animals) to be around humans (predators) nor are they anatomically designed to carry weight. This is ALL a "Made-up" fake world that humans try hard to make real. Does Herdbound also refrain from strapping Dead cows/pigs/sheep on her feet, (boots and shoes,) herself (belts, gloves and jackets) and her horses (tack)? Keep that "Fantasy" goin' girl ;-)! Kevin is real, Real Funny, with a healthy view of his involvement with the animals in his care, that he has brought into and takes out of this world. OH and "Cherie" there is a herd of over 300 Belgian and crosses, horses just North of Dawson Creek BC on South Peace stock Farms. These horses are bred and sold specifically for the Horse Meat industry. This is not the only farm like this in Canada. Guess what happens to the young horses on "Bucking Horse" farms that don't Want To buck??? Packing plants in Alta and Sask make it VERY easy for these breeders with herds of several hundred horses, to get rid of them when needed. This is a sad but real industry in Canada.


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## Druydess

Really Ride said:


> LOL Herdbound is a vegetarian because she doesn't want to "Smell" like a predator, bet she also pratices the oxymoron training "Natural Horsemanship" because after all she is no longer a "Predator" because she abstains from meat. So funny and far off from reality. Humans are predators whether we eat meat or veggies. It's in our DNA/natures we cannot xtract ourselves from that. Believing that you are not a predator because you abstain from meat is about the same as Believing the statement "Natural Horsemanship". Natural Horsemanship is an oxymoron, (a contradictory statement) this is because it is not and never will be "Natural" for horses, (prey animals) to be around humans (predators) nor are they anatomically designed to carry weight. This is ALL a "Made-up" fake world that humans try hard to make real. Does Herdbound also refrain from strapping Dead cows/pigs/sheep on her feet, (boots and shoes,) herself (belts, gloves and jackets) and her horses (tack)? Keep that "Fantasy" goin' girl ;-)! Kevin is real, Real Funny, with a healthy view of his involvement with the animals in his care, that he has brought into and takes out of this world. OH and "Cherie" there is a herd of over 300 Belgian and crosses, horses just North of Dawson Creek BC on South Peace stock Farms. These horses are bred and sold specifically for the Horse Meat industry. This is not the only farm like this in Canada. Guess what happens to the young horses on "Bucking Horse" farms that don't Want To buck??? Packing plants in Alta and Sask make it VERY easy for these breeders with herds of several hundred horses, to get rid of them when needed. This is a sad but real industry in Canada.


Whatever Herdbounds's choice for her method of horsemanship, it is a bit condescending to offer a snide commentary on same..as it is, after all, HER choice..
As to eating and not smelling like a predictor..that actually has scientific merit. What you eat DOES affect what your scent is. What we eat attracts- OR - repels- mosquitoes, bees, etc,. and yes- predators, or makes us more attractive (acceptable) to prey animals.. their senses are far more astute than ours could ever be. Some study on this might be helpful to you.
As for Natural Horsemanship not being Natural-- tell that to the Native Americans- who have that ability SO unequivocally mastered compared to the rest of us.. :wink::wink:


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## herdbound

kevinshorses said:


> Would you care to take a guess at what Tom dorrances stance on horse slaughter was? Or Ray Hunts? I know because I asked.


I wouldn't care what their stance was on this Kevin. I admire them BOTH A LOT but I don't admire them so much that I would change my opinion because theirs happens to be different than mine.


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## herdbound

Really Ride said:


> LOL Herdbound is a vegetarian because she doesn't want to "Smell" like a predator, bet she also pratices the oxymoron training "Natural Horsemanship" because after all she is no longer a "Predator" because she abstains from meat. So funny and far off from reality. Humans are predators whether we eat meat or veggies. It's in our DNA/natures we cannot xtract ourselves from that. Believing that you are not a predator because you abstain from meat is about the same as Believing the statement "Natural Horsemanship". Natural Horsemanship is an oxymoron, (a contradictory statement) this is because it is not and never will be "Natural" for horses, (prey animals) to be around humans (predators) nor are they anatomically designed to carry weight. This is ALL a "Made-up" fake world that humans try hard to make real. Does Herdbound also refrain from strapping Dead cows/pigs/sheep on her feet, (boots and shoes,) herself (belts, gloves and jackets) and her horses (tack)? Keep that "Fantasy" goin' girl ;-)! Kevin is real, Real Funny, with a healthy view of his involvement with the animals in his care, that he has brought into and takes out of this world. OH and "Cherie" there is a herd of over 300 Belgian and crosses, horses just North of Dawson Creek BC on South Peace stock Farms. These horses are bred and sold specifically for the Horse Meat industry. This is not the only farm like this in Canada. Guess what happens to the young horses on "Bucking Horse" farms that don't Want To buck??? Packing plants in Alta and Sask make it VERY easy for these breeders with herds of several hundred horses, to get rid of them when needed. This is a sad but real industry in Canada.


I have NEVER said I practiced Natural Horsemanship...because I don't believe that exists. That is like saying voluntary slavery. Because natural horsemanship would be to set your horse free and hope that maybe someday you might catch a glimpse of it doing what it is naturally supposed to do...graze, sleep, mate, reproduce & die. I posted that link because I want you to see that the worlds undisputed expert on humane slaughter says their is an issue in these plants with them being slaughtered correctly. She admits it...why is it so hard for a person to do this act correctly? There are means by which an animal can quickly be put down...that is what I wonder. Why on earth do they continually thumb their noses at doing it humanely even after they have been told caught over and over. I wish they would actually do more than slap these people on the wrists and I LOVE Dr. Grandin's idea about third party auditing via camera surveillance...transparency is very important to show that the animals are humanely put down.

As far as your theory that humans are predators I am assuming you are saying we are carnivorous or omnivorous? We are more designed like herbivores than carnivores or omnivores. Our teeth, saliva, stomach acid, intestines are more similar to plant eaters than meat eaters. Fossil records show that our ancestors were exclusively vegetarian. If you know anything about the Bible the very first diet set up for man...referred to as "The Genesis Diet" was made up strictly of plants. Our jaws are made to grind; carnivores are not. Our jaws have molars like herbivores; carnivores do not. But I am not here to debate my diet or be attacked for my personal choices. I have chosen to be a vegetarian...soooo what? I also don't eat refined sugar...white bread...or drink soda...what does that have to do with anything other than the fact I choose to take care of my body.


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## herdbound

I tried to find where in this thread the slaughtering of foals was mentioned. As it stands now it is illegal to slaughter a horse less than 6 months of age. Yes. But just so you know if you have any Cordovan Leather furniture in your home you are sitting on the skin of foals that come out of the Promarin Mares & Nurse Mare foals. They are often clubbed to death shortly after birth and then skinned so we can have nice soft couches. Seems legit...right. That is humane & ethical too I assume? I mean we would never "farm" horses like that in America?


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## Druydess

It's patently disgusting..
I never wanted anything leather in my house- and now-- even more so.


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## kevinshorses

Druydess said:


> As for Natural Horsemanship not being Natural-- tell that to the Native Americans- who have that ability SO unequivocally mastered compared to the rest of us.. :wink::wink:


I've known a lot of Indians and there are no higher percentage of good horseman than in the rest of us. The ones I've known that were good with horses were sure enough cowboys and sent a fair share of horses to the meat plant or cut them up for personal use. As far as the indians of old I think you would consider them cruel in thier application of horsemanship. The indians you're talking about that have the magical connection to all horses only exist in Hollywood.


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## Missy May

herdbound said:


> That video excludes the harsher parts of the death the animals recieve BUT I would suggest you watch it because it does have a lot of useful information about the status of the vets on site and Dr. Temple Grandin who as I stated, sets the standard for slaughter makes some outstanding points. And in my opinion if anyone in the world would have a reason to be pro-slaughter it would be her. It is her job to regulate this. She is THEE authority on the matter for the US and other countries...so it's worth the watch just based on that.
> 
> here is her site:
> Temple Grandin's Web Page


Okay, I got the courage to watch it, I can't say I am glad I did. It was beyond upsetting. It is also indisputable objective evidence, thanks for posting. 
Wow, that is horrid.


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## herdbound

I don't think you can go any higher than Dr. Temple Grandin saying yes there is a problem and yes it does need to be fixed. She is THEE authority on this matter in the US. And she is also pro-slaughter I am assuming...I could be wrong but it seems as if she is pro-ethical slaughter.


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## Missy May

Well, herd, tech being what it currently is and cheaper than it ever has been, any position resisting the installation of 24/7 cameras for third party audit is indefensible.


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## Druydess

kevinshorses said:


> I've known a lot of Indians and there are no higher percentage of good horseman than in the rest of us. The ones I've known that were good with horses were sure enough cowboys and sent a fair share of horses to the meat plant or cut them up for personal use. As far as the indians of old I think you would consider them cruel in thier application of horsemanship. The indians you're talking about that have the magical connection to all horses only exist in Hollywood.


I guess we have a different source of Native Americans.. I have not seen this in the NA's I know..
As we have different cultures- so do they, and as a result- different approaches to their environment and livelihoods. The Comanche and Seminole would have vastly different mores and culture, as would the Iroquois, Chemakum, Nootka, and Hopi's.. They can not be painted with the same brush. Their respective cultures and societies are vastly different and imbued with richness and subtleties we can only hope to understand.


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## kevinshorses

I wasn't rying to paint them with any brush. You were making a generalization that was not true. There are many indians that don't even like horses and you made it sound like they all have the "special touch".


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## herdbound

herdbound said:


> This is a video done by the news...not some fanatical group...just the news reporting on horse slaughter in canada...
> 
> Inhumane Slaughter Of Horses In Canada! - YouTube


I was just wondering if any of the pro-slaughter supporters watched this and what their take on Dr. Temple Grandin's stance on the subject of how the plants do not seem to abide by the standards they "claim" exist while she visits versus when they are left alone?


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## natisha

goneriding said:


> Dope them up and ride them then send them to slaughter? Wow, what jackasses. I have a horse in retirement, she can no longer be ridden comfortably. I feed and care for her because she has earned her retirement. She has given me a lot. I am not going to just discard her. Gosh....


What you fail to understand is that some see horses as not much more than a used car that they are putting more money into than they feel it is worth so off it goes while it still has some monetary value. Doesn't matter that the "quick end" may be many painful, terror filled days away. Out of sight, out of mind.
No more feelings than the used car sold for scrap.


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## kevinshorses

herdbound said:


> I was just wondering if any of the pro-slaughter supporters watched this and what their take on Dr. Temple Grandin's stance on the subject of how the plants do not seem to abide by the standards they "claim" exist while she visits versus when they are left alone?


The federal inspectors should be reprimanded or fired but I didn't see much in the video that I thought was terrible. The cattle prod was probably out of batteries (they usually are) or the horse would have jumped forward. Shooting the horse three times didn't bother me either because the horse was dead within a minute.


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## Druydess

kevinshorses said:


> I wasn't rying to paint them with any brush. You were making a generalization that was not true. There are many indians that don't even like horses and you made it sound like they all have the "special touch".


No Kevin- I really wasn't. NA's do have a sense of the horse that we don't simply because they have been a necessary (read necessary please) part of their culture for far longer..
I'm sure some hate horses, just as some "Caucasians" do. Of course there are tribes who do not have the horse "mentality." but there are many that do. I have a different experience with the Natives I suppose, as I have seen them exhibit patience and a sense of training unlike the "standard." 
We have different experiences- that's all.
With hundreds of surviving tribes in this land, that's not all that surprising.


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## Druydess

natisha said:


> What you fail to understand is that some see horses as not much more than a used car that they are putting more money into than they feel it is worth so off it goes while it still has some monetary value. Doesn't matter that the "quick end" may be many painful, terror filled days away. Out of sight, out of mind.
> No more feelings than the used car sold for scrap.


Very true- and that's the danger of looking at a living thing as a "commodity."


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## herdbound

Anyone who works with or around horses KNOWS how sensitive they are. They are amazing creatures. I think it is no miracle that they make such wonderful therapeutic animals for special needs children, victimized women, and ect. The saddest part of this story to me at least, is we take these highly sensitive creatures and place them in the most excruciatingly stressful situations BEFORE they are non-humanely tortured to death. Not always but often enough for it to have received international attention. They are so much more than just an asset. They are amazing...a living, breathing work of art that embodies the properties of strength, grace & power. To this day, everytime I see them running free across a field, hearing the thunder of their hooves, watching them toss their heads in reckless abandonment...I get goosebumps & chills. They are so powerful, so beautiful and their only weakness in the entire world...their Achilles heal...is their alliance with man. They depend on us and trust us far more than we are worthy of.


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## Cherie

> Originally Posted by *herdbound*
> _This is a video done by the news...not some fanatical group...just the news reporting on horse slaughter in canada..._


News Video???

Not posted by some fanatical group???

Really??? Try one fanatical nut-case (Michael something) that carefully takes thousands of video clips, cuts and splices them to show what he wants to show, mis-labels them and posts them on U-Tube. 

Even his own website (that is shut down by legal fights and slander suits most of the time) calls his videos UNFAIR AND BIASED.

MoxNewsDotCom's Channel - YouTube

Here is a link to his u-tube channel - also labeled UNFAIR AND BIASED by him, (which is also shut down most of the time) or you can just follow the link at the end of the video you so wisely posted as a legitimate 'news documentary'. [The guy is also asking for subscribers to pay him to make more 'unfair and biased' videos so he can post more of them.]

Like all of the other videos I have seen posted by the anti-slaughter fanatical nut-cases, his are edited to show and say what he wants them to show. They take a clip of a legitimate news show and then insert video taken somewhere else -- often times years earlier and sometimes in a different country. Then, take clips of Dr. Grandin (who I also greatly respect) while she is talking about a cattle (not horse) plant that she helped design. This is how the nuts posted video like the ones showing the horse being jabbed repeatedly in the spine with a puntela (I think it is called) in a small-town local unregulated slaughter house in either Mexico or Central America. 

I know of no one that is pro-slaughter that wants horses to suffer. We also want it to be regulated and to be right here in the US. But, unlike YOU, we also don't want horses to suffer a much worse death by being neglected and starved until they die after months of misery.

We only want LOCAL well-regulated processing plants with video monitoring and careful scrutiny of all aspects of it. This is not impossible and would be much easier to do if the nut-cases would just let new plants be built here. They should all work toward BETTER processing plants here and not work so hard to keep them all in Mexico and Canada, where they obviously cannot be regulated as well.

Instead of fighting the opening of new plants, all of the anti-slaughter nuts should be trying help get them open and should want to help get a decent dollar value in all lower end horses so they will not be shut up in some back pasture and starved to death. Once again people would buy prospects and most cheap horses would be better fed and treated simply because they had greater value.


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## herdbound

Cherie said:


> News Video???
> 
> Not posted by some fanatical group???
> 
> Really??? Try one fanatical nut-case (Michael something) that carefully takes thousands of video clips, cuts and splices them to show what he wants to show, mis-labels them and posts them on U-Tube.
> 
> Even his own website (that is shut down by legal fights and slander suits most of the time) calls his videos UNFAIR AND BIASED.
> 
> MoxNewsDotCom's Channel - YouTube
> 
> Here is a link to his u-tube channel - also labeled UNFAIR AND BIASED by him, (which is also shut down most of the time) or you can just follow the link at the end of the video you so wisely posted as a legitimate 'news documentary'. [The guy is also asking for subscribers to pay him to make more 'unfair and biased' videos so he can post more of them.]
> 
> Like all of the other videos I have seen posted by the anti-slaughter fanatical nut-cases, his are edited to show and say what he wants them to show. They take a clip of a legitimate news show and then insert video taken somewhere else -- often times years earlier and sometimes in a different country. Then, take clips of Dr. Grandin (who I also greatly respect) while she is talking about a cattle (not horse) plant that she helped design. This is how the nuts posted video like the ones showing the horse being jabbed repeatedly in the spine with a puntela (I think it is called) in a small-town local unregulated slaughter house in either Mexico or Central America.
> 
> I know of no one that is pro-slaughter that wants horses to suffer. We also want it to be regulated and to be right here in the US. But, unlike YOU, we also don't want horses to suffer a much worse death by being neglected and starved until they die after months of misery.
> 
> We only want LOCAL well-regulated processing plants with video monitoring and careful scrutiny of all aspects of it. This is not impossible and would be much easier to do if the nut-cases would just let new plants be built here. They should all work toward BETTER processing plants here and not work so hard to keep them all in Mexico and Canada, where they obviously cannot be regulated as well.
> 
> Instead of fighting the opening of new plants, all of the anti-slaughter nuts should be trying help get them open and should want to help get a decent dollar value in all lower end horses so they will not be shut up in some back pasture and starved to death. Once again people would buy prospects and most cheap horses would be better fed and treated simply because they had greater value.


Well Cherie he may do that so I went and found the actual video from the actual CBC News from Canada and he didn't edit it at all...I am glad you brought this up...because there were a BUNCH of other videos that elaborate even further on the laws that have been broken. They also state that anyone even untrained individuals were able to shoot the horses ect. So I will share this to clarify and PROOVE that the information IS legitimate...the clips with Dr, Grandin have NOT been tampered with. She IS speaking about horses. These are the links to the ACTUAL footage from the CBC News in Canada and their reports...The first being the video I originally posted in it's original format...much better quality than the first one btw.

CBC.ca Player

and if anyone would like to see the whole story it is called No Country For Horses

http://www.cbc.ca/thenational/indepthanalysis/story/2009/10/01/national-horses-061008.html


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## Cherie

Just PLEASE -- don't post old 'Moxy' as a real news source. He ain't.

But, you missed the whole point --

I don't want them to suffer and I don't want them to have to go to Mexico or Canada. You have said you thought everyone that was pro-slaughter wanted horses to suffer and approved of poor processing procedures. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are more 'anti-suffering' than you are.

That would be just the same as me saying "You want horses to suffer and starve to death because they have no value or no other place to go."


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## herdbound

Horse slaughter is the tip of the iceburg on the mistreatment of horses in America. We are exploiting them in every manner we can...from the Promarin mares, to the Nurse Mares. Why? Because we have reduced them to a "thing". An "object" and by allowing slaughter of them we only solidify this image. 

They SUFFER, they feel pain, they feel anxiety...they are a living breathing creature NOT just some inanimate object. My fear is that as the market value of horse meat is now somewhere in the range from 7.00-40.00 a pound we will continue down the slippery slope of exploitation until yes we are farming them, just like we do cattle...and I don't want to EVER see that come to pass...not in America. What a total slap in the face of all they have so willingly done for this country. 

How as a decent human being can we allow this suffering and pain...this "wilful abuse" of an animal who finds the greatest comfort in submitting to us. One who longs to be lead...I find it sad that by doing exactly what we so painstakingly try to achieve in these animals...to have them trust and respect us. To submit and obey us...to desensitize them and to prove to them we are not the evil beast they believe us to be...we turn right around and prove that we are. We are this horrible, non-caring predatory beast, who will hurt them...who will abuse their trust...and who WILL eat them. No wonder they are so wise in being weery of us...we are nothing more than a wolf in sheeps clothing.


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## herdbound

Cherie said:


> Just PLEASE -- don't post old 'Moxy' as a real news source. He ain't.
> 
> But, you missed the whole point --
> 
> I don't want them to suffer and I don't want them to have to go to Mexico or Canada. You have said you thought everyone that was pro-slaughter wanted horses to suffer and approved of poor processing procedures. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are more 'anti-suffering' than you are.
> 
> That would be just the same as me saying "You want horses to suffer and starve to death because they have no value or no other place to go."


I didn't know any different and I am glad you pointed it out to me as I stated earlier. I don't think any sane human being wants them to suffer and I have stated several times that anti and pro people want the same things we just can't agree on how to get there. I can not witness an animal in pain...I can't. It is just in my make-up. When my horses have been hurt or injured I have sat there and cried like a baby. I think this effects people differently on emotional levels. I am effected deeply by this.


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## DrumRunner

I would just like to add, as a decedent from Seminole and Cherokee Native Americans that there is no "Spechul Bond" between a NA and their horse...Horses were involved in NA's lives as a multiuse livestock animal. That's it..They could be ridden, pack horses, EATEN, used their skins for clothes or other materials, and they were disposable.. There was no magical bond in the breaking and training of a horse. It was man handled into submission and then used as an animal would. Not a friend..Sure, some may have had that respect relationship between a horse and rider that most of us, as horse owners, want to have..But they weren't BFFs...

NA's do believe that ALL animals should be respected and those animals are the reason they had life as they knew it..All animals were used as needed..There were no pets, if they needed food and had no other food resource, they were going to EAT that pet. Back then there wasn't any time for any "special bond" training when it came to horses, person catches horse, man handles horse, rides horse into submission, boom "finished" horse...and they certainly weren't vegetarians..Meat was a very big part of their diet.. .

Soo, just saying..There was NO "specul magical bond" between an NA and their horse..There STILL is no "spechul magical" way of training for a lot of tribes...A TON of NA's want to keep the traditions of doing things like their ancestors did..Whether you see that as the right way or the wrong way, it doesn't matter. That is their way of life..But don't assume that everything you've seen on the movie "Spirit, stallion of the cimarron" is real...


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## herdbound

DrumRunner said:


> I would just like to add, as a decedent from Seminole and Cherokee Native Americans that there is no "Spechul Bond" between a NA and their horse...Horses were involved in NA's lives as a multiuse livestock animal. That's it..They could be ridden, pack horses, EATEN, used their skins for clothes or other materials, and they were disposable.. There was no magical bond in the breaking and training of a horse. It was man handled into submission and then used as an animal would. Not a friend..Sure, some may have had that respect relationship between a horse and rider that most of us, as horse owners, want to have..But they weren't BFFs...
> 
> NA's do believe that ALL animals should be respected and those animals are the reason they had life as they knew it..All animals were used as needed..There were no pets, if they needed food and had no other food resource, they were going to EAT that pet. Back then there wasn't any time for any "special bond" training when it came to horses, person catches horse, man handles horse, rides horse into submission, boom "finished" horse...and they certainly weren't vegetarians..Meat was a very big part of their diet.. .
> 
> Soo, just saying..There was NO "specul magical bond" between an NA and their horse..There STILL is no "spechul magical" way of training for a lot of tribes...A TON of NA's want to keep the traditions of doing things like their ancestors did..Whether you see that as the right way or the wrong way, it doesn't matter. That is their way of life..But don't assume that everything you've seen on the movie "Spirit, stallion of the cimarron" is real...


I am too a decendant of Native American culture Cherokee & Blackfoot. And I have to disagree 100% with everything you just said. It is our belief that we are but a thread in the web of life. I am no more important than you, you are no more important than the buffalo, the buffalo no more important than the horse. Each being created by Great Spirit to serve its own "magical purpose". Every life...great or small...was significant. If an animal gave it's life for food a prayer of thanks was offered up to the Great Spirit in reverence for the animal giving up that life. Even being careful were you walked as not to crush the grass with your feet out of respect...not to move a stone from one place to another. The entire essence of Native American philosophy is respect and reverence for the world around us and ALL life is sacred.

*"When we Indians kill meat, we eat it all up. When we dig roots, we make little holes. When we build houses, we make little holes. When we burn grass for grasshoppers, we don't ruin things. We shake down acorns and pine nuts. We don't chop down the trees. We only use dead wood. But the white people plow up the ground, pull down the trees, kill everything. ... the White people pay no attention. ...How can the spirit of the earth like the White man? ... everywhere the White man has touched it, it is sore." Wintu Woman*


*Wovoka, Paiute*


*"You ask me to plow the ground. Shall I take a knife and tear my mother's bosom? Then when I die she will not take me to her bosom to rest. "You ask me to dig for stones! Shall I dig under her skin for bones? Then when I die I cannot enter her body to be born again. 
"You ask me to cut grass and make hay and sell it and be rich like white men, but how dare I cut my mother's hair? 
"I want my people to stay with me here. All the dead men will come to life again. Their spirits will come to their bodies again. We must wait here in the homes of our fathers and be ready to meet them in the bosom of our mother." ​*


----------



## Missy May

kevinshorses said:


> The federal inspectors should be reprimanded or fired but I didn't see much in the video that I thought was terrible. The cattle prod was probably out of batteries (they usually are) or the horse would have jumped forward. Shooting the horse three times didn't bother me either because the horse was dead within a minute.


Other than being shocked at your reaction, I am very curious - do you think that chemical and/or biological warfare treaties should be nulled? It is both suffering and fear that led to the treaties - but notice conventional weapons (e.g., artillery) are not included. The objective of both weapon types is - to kill and/or maim.


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## DrumRunner

Someone has been smoking too much of the peace pipe..

I think now that you're grabbing at the last strands of an argument, no where did anyone say anything about what the Native Americans thought of life in general. Of what you are, I am, each living or non living object is..Why are you bringing in something like "We only use dead wood"..That's false by the way..Bows were mainly made from green tree limbs..

My whole point in my last post was in reference to your "Native Americans and their horses have special bonds"..That is not true, at all... 

I too said that all animals should be respected and that was our beliefs.. Then you go and bring up something about digging roots and leaving holes?? Where does that fall in your argument in trying to make a point about a Native American and their horse having a bond...

A horse is an animal. Animals are used...Praise the "Great Spirit" when used, but that's the truth.


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## kevinshorses

Weren't there a lot of Cherokee farmers in the south before they were marched to Oklahoma where they became farmers and oil tycoons?


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## DrumRunner

kevinshorses said:


> Weren't there a lot of Cherokee farmers in the south before they were marched to Oklahoma where they became farmers and oil tycoons?


Yes..most of the south, mainly Georgia is where the Cherokee started before reservations came about..Then in south Georgia and throughout Florida is where the Seminole Native Americans were/still are.. When the other NAs were pushed into reservations, the Seminole went farther south into the everglades.


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## herdbound

DrumRunner said:


> My whole point in my last post was in reference to your "Native Americans and their horses have special bonds"..That is not true, at all...
> 
> I too said that all animals should be respected and that was our beliefs.. Then you go and bring up something about digging roots and leaving holes?? Where does that fall in your argument in trying to make a point about a Native American and their horse having a bond...
> 
> A horse is an animal. Animals are used...Praise the "Great Spirit" when used, but that's the truth.


Because no matter how little the act upon the earth or one of it's inhabitants it was done in REVERENCE with RESPECT. As for special bonds with their horses...lol...the NA women were often jealous of the ponies of their husbands...because they would even come inside to sleep. The men spent more time with them than they did their women. A horse that was used to do battle was decorated just as it's rider...and they were both prepared to die as great warriors...together. They were very important to the NA...they were thought to be a gift from The Great Spirit...and I don't know any practicing NA that would think of a gift from Great Spirit as just some hum drum animal. I found everything you said to be contradictory and offensive to NA beliefs and philosophy.


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## DrumRunner

Laugh..Honestly, you can think what you want. I know what I was taught and what was passed down to me..Not something I read off of the internet... The Native Americans lived a hard, hard life that most of us today cannot even imagine..It wasn't a fairy tale like most believe it to be..This isn't an argument about what the NA life style was or still is.. You brought up that NAs had a special bond with their horse, that's simply not true..

AND, if you REALLY want to get into it. Native Americans didn't even HAVE horses until they were brought over by the Spanish..They weren't started and just *poofed* into the Native American lifestyle..The Spanish brought over horses, a good number were let loose and welcome the "Mustang"...


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## Cherie

Well, I hate to pop ya'lls bubbles, but I too am very familiar with Indians. I'm married to one. All of my in-laws are Indians. Our family reunions look more like a Pow Wow. 

I also lived for 30 years between the Southern Ute and Navajo Reservations. Many were friends of mine. I know many Sioux and used to train Arabian horses for one from Hyannis in northern Nebraska. 

So, I am very familiar with Indians from several tribes. Many (not all) of the Reservation Indians had VERY CRUDE if not abusive training techniques. It was common to tie one out on a long rope (usually by one front foot) and not feed or water it until it was submissive and came to the human for water. They ate the ones that would not submit. 

They sometimes rode horses to death. Literally, they rode a horse until it collapsed and then they got another. When I went to the Navajo settlements on the back-roads (where I used to buy blankets and pawn jewelry), you never saw a horse that was not a bag of bones, oftentimes with big saddle and harness sores. The Indians I saw with horses years ago were brutal. There was no other way to describe them. 

Now, to more recent history: several tribes are interested in setting up horse processing facilities. Several western Tribal Leaders spoke at the first 'Summit Of The Horse' held in Nevada a year ago. They want a way to 'get rid' of the glut of thousands of mustangs that are over-running their range-land to the point that they have had to sell many of their cattle and sheep. They are also looking at horse processing facilities to bring jobs to their remote reservations. Since they are "Sovereign Nations" they will be able to do this if they are allowed to ship the meat and sell it. As I understand it, they are looking at Asian markets now.

I don't know about you, but, again, I would rather have the processing plants right here on the 'sovereign' old US soil.


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## kevinshorses

I think you're confusing the indians with the A-rabs! It sure must have torn up those Cherokees to plow the ground and plant cotton all over the southern U.S.

This comment was in response to Herbound's comment above.


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## DrumRunner

Cherie said:


> Well, I hate to pop ya'lls bubbles, but I too am very familiar with Indians. I'm married to one. All of my in-laws are Indians. Our family reunions look more like a Pow Wow.
> 
> I also lived for 30 years between the Southern Ute and Navajo Reservations. Many were friends of mine. I know many Sioux and used to train Arabian horses for one from Hyannis in northern Nebraska.
> 
> So, I am very familiar with Indians from several tribes. Many (not all) of the Reservation Indians had VERY CRUDE if not abusive training techniques. It was common to tie one out on a long rope (usually by one front foot) and not feed or water it until it was submissive and came to the human for water. They ate the ones that would not submit.
> 
> They sometimes rode horses to death. Literally, they rode a horse until it collapsed and then they got another. When I went to the Navajo settlements on the back-roads (where I used to buy blankets and pawn jewelry), you never saw a horse that was not a bag of bones, oftentimes with big saddle and harness sores. The Indians I saw with horses years ago were brutal. There was no other way to describe them.
> 
> Now, to more recent history: several tribes are interested in setting up horse processing facilities. Several western Tribal Leaders spoke at the first 'Summit Of The Horse' held in Nevada a year ago. They want a way to 'get rid' of the glut of thousands of mustangs that are over-running their range-land to the point that they have had to sell many of their cattle and sheep. They are also looking at horse processing facilities to bring jobs to their remote reservations. Since they are "Sovereign Nations" they will be able to do this if they are allowed to ship the meat and sell it. As I understand it, they are looking at Asian markets now.
> 
> I don't know about you, but, again, I would rather have the processing plants right here on the 'sovereign' old US soil.


THANK YOU! Can I get an AMEN?!


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## SorrelHorse

I swore to myself I would stay out of this thread, but...

A-FREAKING-MEN!


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## Cherie

If you think all Indians are wonderful horsemen, google the 'Omak Suicide Race' where several horses and a rider or two are killed every year.

And Ya! I wasn't going to get back in it either -- but them someone posts an out and out untruth and I get suckered back in.


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## DrumRunner

LOL SH, as soon as I saw you had replied I said "I know she said AMEN!"..


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## Missy May

Well, at least ... I THINK we have found something everyone can agree on....slaughter houses should be (and, from the politics of it...look as if they soon will be back) in the US (not reservations) where they can be regulated and monitored. If, that is, they find the money to properly fund inspections - maybe they can take a little from federally funded tatoo removal, or the like.


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## herdbound

No but I will leave you with a prayer from my people. 

*Aho Mitakuye Oyasin*
All my relations. I honor you in this circle of life with me today. I am grateful for this opportunity to acknowledge you in this prayer....
To the Creator, for the ultimate gift of life, I thank you.
To the mineral nation that has built and maintained my bones and all foundations of life experience, I thank you.
To the plant nation that sustains my organs and body and gives me healing herbs for sickness, I thank you.
To the animal nation that feeds me from your own flesh and offers your loyal companionship in this walk of life, I thank you.
To the human nation that shares my path as a soul upon the sacred wheel of Earthly life, I thank you.
To the Spirit nation that guides me invisibly through the ups and downs of life and for carrying the torch of light through the Ages, I thank you.
To the Four Winds of Change and Growth, I thank you.
You are all my relations, my relatives, without whom I would not live. We are in the circle of life together, co-existing, co-dependent, co-creating our destiny. One, not more important than the other. One nation evolving from the other and yet each dependent upon the one above and the one below. All of us a part of the Great Mystery.


Thank you for this Life.

As far as the horses are concerned. I can only pray that a sensible, and humane solution can be found. And that the heart of man be pure and clean in his judgements concerning their welfare. That his heart not be persuaded by greed, laziness or other evil devices that motivate him to turn the other cheek and allow them to suffer.


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## Allison Finch

Druydess said:


> stute than ours could ever be. Some study on this might be helpful to you.
> As for Natural Horsemanship not being Natural-- tell that to the Native Americans- who have that ability SO unequivocally mastered compared to the rest of us.. :wink::wink:


Hmm....As a person who lived among the Native Americans at the time of early contact, This artist painted what he SAW. Not too friendly or warm and fuzzy...

Front legs tied together and fought down with a painful rope around his jaw.










Smacking the poo out of them with quirts










So, believe what you will. Today's Indian trainers like "Ponyboy" are just affectations who have little to do with any native American heritage.


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## kevinshorses

Not to mention that europeans were dependent on horses for about a thousand years before the first indian even thought about sitting astride a horse. My own family probably has a longer history with horses than ANY indian.


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## herdbound

For the record I am *not* GuWaNi Pony Boys biggest fan. The NA's have about as much to do with horse slaughter as the Pope in my opinion. We are way off track and there are two things you shouldn't discuss with strangers...religion & politics. So as far as what I have been taught and believe to be true I must honor...same as you.


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## SorrelHorse

DrumRunner said:


> LOL SH, as soon as I saw you had replied I said "I know she said AMEN!"..


 
You know me way too well Drum! LOL


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## Really Ride

Druydess is that a "Dead Cow" on you horse's head. 

Did you find concrete proof that Cordovan leather is exclusively from foals? Also I do believe eating some animal proteins is part of the human make-up as we need vitamin B-12, for our health but cannot get enough naturally without artificial supplementation. Obtaining protien/b-12 from eggs or fish is the way some vegetarians go, as that would be a natural "Human" diet. I believe we are omnivorous beings. I had a Chinese doctor who once said; Humans should not eat any animal protien, from an animal that is larger than themselves. He had good reason for this, and for me it has worked. So eggs, small mammals, birds, seafood.

You could post a video of any slaughterhouse and it would be disturbing to watch, as part of my post secondary agriculture training, we visited some packing houses, it's enough to make you stop eating meat.

As for the First Nations persons being Natural Horsemen, they ate and wore animals so I guess their horses like my horses didn't care, as long as they had a treat in their loin cloths;-)! The statement Natural Horsemanship is an Oxymoron like Herdbound said, "Does not exist"


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## Missy May

Really Ride said:


> Druydess is that a "Dead Cow" on you horse's head.
> 
> 
> You could post a video of any slaughterhouse and it would be disturbing to watch, as part of my post secondary agriculture training, we visited some packing houses, it's enough to make you stop eating meat.


The execution of a mass-murderer that deserves to be eliminated... is difficult for most to watch. When in innocent person is beheaded with a dull blade and takes 20 whacks, it is beyond disturbing.

It is a question of "humane slaughter" - if it is going to be practiced. I am for its return to the US for the purpose of regulation enforcement...not b/c I am for any and all slaughter, but b/c it is a matter of what "can be done" at the moment, and time is of the essence.

People have their own philosophies on just about everything. Lets celebrate their freedom to do so. The matter at hand is horse slaughter.


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## herdbound

Cordovan Leather is made from equine skins...you can google it and find that information on your own. Foals skins are used because they are very supple and they are easy to come by from these nurse mares...thats a whole other can of worms. I lump the promarin mares in with them though as I find this one of those "iffy" breeding/cruelty/abuse/neglect scenarios I find ethically wrong...BUT anyways as I said thats a whole other can of worms...

I have a very balanced diet. I do eat alot of eggs. I am very aware of the B-12 issue and my eggs do not come from the grocery store  They come from a hen house out back....thank you for your concerns though...I am very healthy.

As for NA's again ...I will say this...I am offended by horse slaughter - find it utterly disgusting...BUT I am also offended by the way the NA nations are treated and the way they have been forced to live in absolute poverty themselves. The injustice done to them, the housing and employment situations, the outrageously high suicide rates on the reservations bother me just about as much as the injustice done to the horses. Pine Ridge in South Dakota is a great example of this...again want more info google it....

For me at least when I approach this I just approach it from a standpoint that human beings basicly suck. They have a history of finding things weaker, helpless and defenseless and make them completely dependant on them and instead of choosing to be compassionate & humane, they prove they are worthy of trust from the weaker entity, then they often betray them in the most hideous and gruesome way they can.. I don't want to be a person like that...be it a foal, a person of a different ethnicity, or a horse that has just had a series of misfortunate events and has lost it's place in this world. I want to treat people, animals, and everything in between with compassion. I find it very strange that when you do this you are attacked. Is it considered weakness? Is it true that as human beings we must bully, take over and exploit our way to the top? If thats what it means to be at the top then screw it for me...I don't want it. My philosophy in life, with my kids, with the horses, just with everything in general can be summed up in a little quote..."When in doubt choose to be kind. Being kind is never the wrong thing to do."


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## Druydess

herdbound said:


> I am too a decendant of Native American culture Cherokee & Blackfoot. And I have to disagree 100% with everything you just said. It is our belief that we are but a thread in the web of life. I am no more important than you, you are no more important than the buffalo, the buffalo no more important than the horse. Each being created by Great Spirit to serve its own "magical purpose". Every life...great or small...was significant. If an animal gave it's life for food a prayer of thanks was offered up to the Great Spirit in reverence for the animal giving up that life. Even being careful were you walked as not to crush the grass with your feet out of respect...not to move a stone from one place to another. The entire essence of Native American philosophy is respect and reverence for the world around us and ALL life is sacred.
> 
> *"When we Indians kill meat, we eat it all up. When we dig roots, we make little holes. When we build houses, we make little holes. When we burn grass for grasshoppers, we don't ruin things. We shake down acorns and pine nuts. We don't chop down the trees. We only use dead wood. But the white people plow up the ground, pull down the trees, kill everything. ... the White people pay no attention. ...How can the spirit of the earth like the White man? ... everywhere the White man has touched it, it is sore." Wintu Woman*
> 
> 
> *Wovoka, Paiute*
> 
> 
> *"You ask me to plow the ground. Shall I take a knife and tear my mother's bosom? Then when I die she will not take me to her bosom to rest. "You ask me to dig for stones! Shall I dig under her skin for bones? Then when I die I cannot enter her body to be born again.
> "You ask me to cut grass and make hay and sell it and be rich like white men, but how dare I cut my mother's hair?
> "I want my people to stay with me here. All the dead men will come to life again. Their spirits will come to their bodies again. We must wait here in the homes of our fathers and be ready to meet them in the bosom of our mother." ​*


Thank you Herdbound-- this exactly illustrates the difference in the many tribes I alluded to earlier.. :wink:


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## Druydess

Allison Finch said:


> Hmm....As a person who lived among the Native Americans at the time of early contact, This artist painted what he SAW. Not too friendly or warm and fuzzy...
> 
> Front legs tied together and fought down with a painful rope around his jaw.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Smacking the poo out of them with quirts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, believe what you will. Today's Indian trainers like "Ponyboy" are just affectations who have little to do with any native American heritage.


Again- ONE tribe in thousands.. not all were warm and fuzzy- obviously..


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## herdbound

I just want to point out to that these are artistic renditions and quite honestly they were probably painted during a period in history where Native Americans were being portrayed as "heathen savages"...and they may be a figment of the artists imagination from tales of these horrid primitive people being told from the lips of people who were responsible for the destruction, round up, and transplantation of these mighty nations of people. I think that is why I was offended by the posts referring to NA's earlier...I don't like when they are portrayed like that if you have any idea of the fundamentals of their spirituality and their respect for Great Spirit or Wankan Tanka and all the creation they feel are a gift...you wouldn't say those things...


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## Druydess

herdbound said:


> I just want to point out to that these are artistic renditions and quite honestly they were probably painted during a period in history where Native Americans were being portrayed as "heathen savages"...and they may be a figment of the artists imagination from tales of these horrid primitive people being told from the lips of people who were responsible for the destruction, round up, and transplantation of these mighty nations of people. I think that is why I was offended by the posts referring to NA's earlier...I don't like when they are portrayed like that if you have any idea of the fundamentals of their spirituality and their respect for Great Spirit or Wankan Tanka and all the creation they feel are a gift...you wouldn't say those things...


Well spoken- - Osiyo!!


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## lizzy12312

herdbound said:


> I just want to point out to that these are artistic renditions and quite honestly they were probably painted during a period in history where Native Americans were being portrayed as "heathen savages"...and they may be a figment of the artists imagination from tales of these horrid primitive people being told from the lips of people who were responsible for the destruction, round up, and transplantation of these mighty nations of people. I think that is why I was offended by the posts referring to NA's earlier...I don't like when they are portrayed like that if you have any idea of the fundamentals of their spirituality and their respect for Great Spirit or Wankan Tanka and all the creation they feel are a gift...you wouldn't say those things...


 love it herdbound
:happydance:


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## DrumRunner

I guess they weren't "Heathen Savages" when they scalped people? Or when they kidnapped and stole women to rape, beat, and kill them to hang their hair on their chests? What about war parties that went out killing for fun? You saying that artists are just drawing or painting figments of their imagination is exactly that, you're imagination..Native Americans weren't all "we love everything, lets be nice to everything" pray to the Great Spirit" like you are making all of them out to be...There MAY have been a FEW tribes like that and they did respect everything, but also remember that there were MANY tribes who weren't like that...You've got your head wrapped up in what YOU want Native Americans to be like and not facing reality..



















Now, I'm not saying that Native Americans were all bad, that's not true...But they darn sure weren't all cupcakes, rainbows, and spechul bonds..


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## NdAppy

Lets add into that Drum... If having that great spiritual belief makes the Natives have that uber speshul bond, what about all the other religions? You have super religious "lets not hurt anything" factions of many, many religions... does that give them that high special bond with horses? No. The Natives have no more of a special "bond" with horses than any other type of people out there.


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## FlyGap

"BUT I am also offended by the way the NA nations are treated and the way they have been forced to live in absolute poverty themselves. The injustice done to them, the housing and employment situations, the outrageously high suicide rates on the reservations bother me just about as much as the injustice done to the horses. Pine Ridge in South Dakota is a great example of this...again want more info google it...."

This is ABSOLUTELY Absurd. No one is forced to live in those conditions, actually I find that the government's involvement has encouraged their poverty! Hello! Free health care, dental, land, handouts, college education, and on and on! My family and I qualify for all of those benefits and we refuse to take them. MY ancestors walked the trail of tears (Great Great grandmother was an Chief's daughter), great grandmother Apache, one Great grandmother and her rocking chair was traded to my great grandfather for a team of mules, and I can list many others. I am a mutt, but all of my ancestors were given land and each of them sold it, got off the reservations and lived elsewhere. NOT DEPENDING ON THE "WHITE" GOVERNMENT. 

As for the fairy tale of them being gentle with horses and the land... Lots of them were farmers, hard core horse trainers mentioned before, I wouldn't let some of my family within 100 yards of my own. 
Yes they do have a "way" to them... see picture of me with my grandfather, he's mostly Cherokee and Apache. He can hunt, track, grow just about anything and has a deep respect for nature. But if the NA's had never seen anyone riding on a horse they would have just shot them, sliced their throats, and ate them. Being thankful for the meat, not wasting it in the ground because it was their purdy pony. They used every inch of their bodies, like slaughter does now, and nothing went to waste.

Geez, this is getting loopier by the second.

Me with my mostly Native American grandfather, who loves horses, but has no way with them AT ALL. But he did teach me how to fish.


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## DrumRunner

YES FlyGap!!!


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## herdbound

Are you wasichu?


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## DrumRunner

I bet it took you a good bit to search all over Google and Youtube to come up with that...Please, just stop..You're just making yourself look...something I'd get in trouble for saying..I'm not going to keep arguing with you because you're just dragging me father off the deep end with you. 

Just face it, as much as you want to believe it's all like a storybook and everyone holds hands and loves the little animals, it's clearly not true in all cases.. YOU weren't there, you don't know, you have no facts..All you have is some white guy on a stage talking about today's Native Americans and a a few poems you found on Google...But please, next time you get in your headdress and time machine, stop by and ask my ancestors if they have speshul bond with their horses..

Another thing - You claim to be all about Native American and believing in the Great Spirit and that's who you worship....yet you have an Islamic quote as your signature? Who are you trying to fool today? Us or yourself?


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## kevinshorses

I found a couple of accounts of the connection Indians have with the earth. 

When NASA was preparing for the Apollo project, they did 
some training on a Navajo Indian reservation.
One day, a Navajo elder and his son were herding sheep and 
came across the space crew. The old man, who spoke only Navajo, 
asked a question which his son translated.
"What are these guys in the big suits doing?"
A member of the crew said they were practicing for their trip 
to the moon. The old man got all excited and asked if he could 
send a message to the moon with the astronauts.
Recognizing a promotional opportunity for the spin-doctors, 
the NASA folks found a tape recorder.
After the old man recorded his message, they asked the son 
to translate it. He refused.
So the NASA reps brought the tape to the reservation where 
the rest of the tribe listened and laughed but refused to 
translate the elder's message to the moon.
Finally, the NASA crew called in an official government 
translator. He reported that the moon message said, "Watch 
out for these guys; they have come to steal your land."



Two cowboys come upon an Indian lying on his stomach with 
his ear to the ground.
One of the cowboys stops and says to the other, "You see 
that Indian?"
"Yeah," says the other cowboy.
"Look," says the first one, "he's listening to the ground.
He can hear things for miles in any direction."
Just then the Indian looks up. "Covered wagon," he says, 
"about two miles away. Have two horses, one brown, one white.
Man, woman, child, household effects in wagon."
"Incredible!" says the cowboy to his friend. "This Indian 
knows how far away they are, how many horses, what color they 
are, who is in the wagon, and what is in the wagon. Amazing!"
The Indian looks up and says, "Ran over me about a 
half hour ago."


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## Druydess

Funny Kevin- heard the first one before..  Very true..


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## Druydess

DrumRunner said:


> I guess they weren't "Heathen Savages" when they scalped people? Or when they kidnapped and stole women to rape, beat, and kill them to hang their hair on their chests? What about war parties that went out killing for fun? You saying that artists are just drawing or painting figments of their imagination is exactly that, you're imagination..Native Americans weren't all "we love everything, lets be nice to everything" pray to the Great Spirit" like you are making all of them out to be...There MAY have been a FEW tribes like that and they did respect everything, but also remember that there were MANY tribes who weren't like that...You've got your head wrapped up in what YOU want Native Americans to be like and not facing reality..
> 
> 
> Now, I'm not saying that Native Americans were all bad, that's not true...But they darn sure weren't all cupcakes, rainbows, and spechul bonds..


I don't believe anyone was saying all NA's were rainbows and unicorns..
We all have personal experiences that differ, which makes our observations unique. One's own experience isn't arguable. We have seen what we have seen. It has nothing to do with what we'd like to see. I suppose I have been very fortunate to witness some higher level of humanity.
Respecting life as a rule does not preclude swift and deadly retaliation when provoked. 
As to the rape, scalping and other mayhem- the Caucasians were pretty good at that.. they became quite inventive during the Inquisition, so they must also be Heathen Savages.
Brutality is uniquely, and disturbingly, human. That doesn't mean the higher forms of compassion and understanding hasn't happened in the past or isn't possible in the future.


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## herdbound

Actually drumrunner I had that video for a long time saved it was in my Indian Country Today Media Network on my FB...this thread is about horse slaughter...this is getting too personal for me. The injustice I feel that has been done to the NA people, to look at their children living in sqauler and filth...well yeah it bothers me. I guess that is just me. Someone made a comment about how far fetched that was...its very real. They have been served a tremendous injustice. This isn't a NA injustice thread though so I would hope that we could drop the whole subject entirely to me it has nothing to do with the price of Tea in China.


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## DrumRunner

Druydess, the only thing I'm trying to point out to herdbound is that all Native Americans weren't and aren't the great and kind people she's trying to make the whole race out to be..There are all levels of good and even evil in ALL humans. No one person is perfect and only does all the right things all of the time...We all make mistakes, bad decisions, and bad choices...Herdbound is trying to make a point and in the process of trying to make all Native Americans seem like great and kid people, she's contradicting herself and taking it off the deep end...This WHOLE argument started with her saying only Native Americans have a special bond with their horses.



Druydess said:


> As for Natural Horsemanship not being Natural-- tell that to the Native Americans- who have that ability SO unequivocally mastered compared to the rest of us.. :wink::wink:


This is* FALSE*. Not all NativeAmericans even LIKE horses, much less have a special bond with them..You are trying to fit all of one race into one group and it's not so..



Druydess said:


> We all have personal experiences that differ, which makes our observations unique. One's own experience isn't arguable. We have seen what we have seen. It has nothing to do with what we'd like to see. I suppose I have been very fortunate to witness some higher level of humanity.


Really? Well I have witnessed the lower level of humanity..Once you've been in those situations, you can preach to me about how I should react to someone saying that MY ancestors are all kind and great people..I know for a fact that they all weren't..and that not all Native Americans have this huge heart of gold and live by those "morals" herdbound posted..

How can you both argue with people who are DIRECTLY involved, like Cherie and FlyGap, and tell them that they aren't right in what they say? They are directly involved in those NA lifestyles..You and herdbound are making false assumptions then wanting to argue about it.



kevinshorses said:


> I've known a lot of Indians and there are no higher percentage of good horseman than in the rest of us. The ones I've known that were good with horses were sure enough cowboys and sent a fair share of horses to the meat plant or cut them up for personal use. As far as the indians of old I think you would consider them cruel in thier application of horsemanship. The indians you're talking about that have the magical connection to all horses only exist in Hollywood.


Completely true statement..



Druydess said:


> They can not be painted with the same brush. Their respective cultures and societies are vastly different and imbued with richness and subtleties we can only hope to understand.


You even said it here yourself...All of the Native American cultures are vastly different. 




herdbound said:


> the NA women were often jealous of the ponies of their husbands...because they would even come inside to sleep. The men spent more time with them than they did their women. A horse that was used to do battle was decorated just as it's rider...and they were both prepared to die as great warriors...together..


I'm sorry, were you there? Did you speak with those wives? The ones who were considered as the only ones who worked and made the tribe work? The guys were just hunters or warriors...The NA women had the hardest lives of all. 



herdbound said:


> No but I will leave you with a prayer from my people.


She really goes off the deep end in this post...But does she leave? Nope..right back with more false jibberish..



Druydess said:


> Thank you Herdbound-- this exactly illustrates the difference in the many tribes I alluded to earlier.. :wink:


What about the other tribes that do not feel that way? That murder for fun? Scalp women and children? So on and so forth..



herdbound said:


> I just want to point out to that these are artistic renditions and quite honestly they were probably painted during a period in history where Native Americans were being portrayed as "heathen savages"...and they may be a figment of the artists imagination from tales of these horrid primitive people being told from the lips of people who were responsible for the destruction, round up, and transplantation of these mighty nations of people. I think that is why I was offended by the posts referring to NA's earlier...I don't like when they are portrayed like that if you have any idea of the fundamentals of their spirituality and their respect for Great Spirit or Wankan Tanka and all the creation they feel are a gift...you wouldn't say those things...


I forgot, she got in her time machine and traveled there to ask the artists what they thought of their scene..This is also coming from the same girl who worships the Great Spirit and Wankan Tanka but has an Islamic quote as her signature..



herdbound said:


> Are you wasichu?


Now that it's not even about horses anymore, she calls everyone who disagress with her greedy a**holes..





herdbound said:


> ...this thread is about horse slaughter...this is getting too personal for me. This isn't a NA injustice thread though so I would hope that we could drop the whole subject entirely to me it has nothing to do with the price of Tea in China.


You two are the members who bought Native Americans into the whole thread to begin with.


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## Druydess

It's not just you Herdbound. Injustice is never right. The thread should focus on the original topic. Perhaps if we address only pertinent posts- we'll get back on track.


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## kevinshorses

herdbound said:


> The injustice I feel that has been done to the NA people, to look at their children living in sqauler and filth...well yeah it bothers me. I guess that is just me. Someone made a comment about how far fetched that was...its very real. They have been served a tremendous injustice. This isn't a NA injustice thread though so I would hope that we could drop the whole subject entirely to me it has nothing to do with the price of Tea in China.


The federal government must do a real good job camoflaging the fences and razor wire on the reservations. I didn't see any so I assumed that they were free to leave and live elsewhere. Last I knew indians could get accepted to just about any college they wanted and the government would pay for it. The fact that many decide to stay drunk, ignorant and poor on the "rez" is not the fault of the "white" man. Being thier own nations indian tribes can make laws that benefit thier people and create good jobs or they can build casinos and smoke shops. The crualest thing the federal government ever did to the indians was to pay them money for doing nothing. If the government wanted to help them they would diband the BIA and disolve the reservation system.


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## herdbound

kevinshorses said:


> The federal government must do a real good job camoflaging the fences and razor wire on the reservations. I didn't see any so I assumed that they were free to leave and live elsewhere. Last I knew indians could get accepted to just about any college they wanted and the government would pay for it. The fact that many decide to stay drunk, ignorant and poor on the "rez" is not the fault of the "white" man. Being thier own nations indian tribes can make laws that benefit thier people and create good jobs or they can build casinos and smoke shops. The crualest thing the federal government ever did to the indians was to pay them money for doing nothing. If the government wanted to help them they would diband the BIA and disolve the reservation system.


The choice for them is to leave what little land they still claim in America and conform to the rest of the US to survive. They have been offered millions of dollars for their shares of that land...they could all be millionaires if they truly wanted to be...but hanging onto what they still have rights to is more important than the money. And that will be the last thing I say about them. They have the choice to leave true...but do you realize that IF the NA's were forced off the reservations and their lands became part of the US...it dies. They no longer have anything. I again say I do not want to debate this...so that is my final comment on the matter.


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## kevinshorses

Then they'd just have to be americans like the rest of us. Wouldn't that be awful!


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## goneriding

:wink:I think it is time for a glass of wine.....


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## Derry girl

goneriding said:


> :wink:I think it is time for a glass of wine.....


a glass... Iv a straw in the bottle lol


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## Druydess

goneriding said:


> :wink:I think it is time for a glass of wine.....





Derry girl said:


> a glass... Iv a straw in the bottle lol


I think you're right! :wink::wink:

Definitely time for lightening up and enjoying the good things and lovely people life has to offer!


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## Derry girl

Druydess said:


> I think you're right! :wink::wink:
> 
> Definitely time for lightening up and enjoying the good things and lovely people life has to offer!


I wish you could double like some posts! 
I havent posted much on this thread but Iv been reading the whole thing, makes for some interesting reading!:wink:


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## Druydess

Derry girl said:


> I wish you could double like some posts!
> I havent posted much on this thread but Iv been reading the whole thing, makes for some interesting reading!:wink:


LOL- yes, I wish we could as well- some really earn extra recognition!
Yes- it does. And there has been some very enlightening, open, and compassionate discourse on this thread. I appreciate a good, well presented debate.


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## herdbound

I am actually thinking some homemade strawberry wine...and a bubble bath girls...I had a horrible day with a cranky butt mare who is giving me a real run for my money. I will recite these words while soaking in the suds..."you can bend me, you can shake me, but oh baby you will never break me"


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## Druydess

herdbound said:


> I am actually thinking some homemade strawberry wine...and a bubble bath girls...I had a horrible day with a cranky butt mare who is giving me a real run for my money. I will recite these words while soaking in the suds..."you can bend me, you can shake me, but oh baby you will never break me"


You strike as a tough one- not easily broken.. 
Have a nice bath and some homemade strawberry wine and relax.. 
Maybe the mare needs a bubble bath.. :wink:


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## Allison Finch

herdbound said:


> I just want to point out to that these are artistic renditions and quite honestly they were probably painted during a period in history where Native Americans were being portrayed as "heathen savages"...and they may be a figment of the artists imagination from tales of these horrid primitive people being told from the lips of people who were responsible for the destruction, round up, and transplantation of these mighty nations of people. I think that is why I was offended by the posts referring to NA's earlier...I don't like when they are portrayed like that if you have any idea of the fundamentals of their spirituality and their respect for Great Spirit or Wankan Tanka and all the creation they feel are a gift...you wouldn't say those things...


Anyone who took the time to research these varied artists, just might find the real reverence they had for the native peoples. Their desire was to realistically portray their clothing, homes, ceremonies and way of life. They saw the coming clashes with western culture and sought to preserve the rich cultures. And no, their paintings covered many different western tribes, not just one or two.

I have strong Choctaw blood (one of the seven "civilized tribes"....google it) in my family tree. I do not, however, subscribe to much of the western world's concept of the mystical spiritual stereotypes of NA cultures. They were nations filled with the good and bad, as every culture is.


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## Vegan Draftman

I would never ever think of sending a horse of mine to slaughter. Here in sweden we have cremation as an option, witch is my choice. Otherwise I´ve got my back hoe loader to to bury the horse. BUT NEVER EVER SLAUGHTER !!!!!


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