# Chocolate Palamino or Bay Silver or ????



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

She looks like silver bay to me, which is bay/brown with the silver gene to dilute it. That turns the legs gray or chocolate where they would normally be black, and lightens the mane and tail.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Genetics is not my thing...my understanding is not great.

What is great I can comment on is BEAUTIFUL horses....
So eye-catching & pretty...
🐴...


----------



## Kattington (Jun 26, 2013)

If her parents truly were black and sorrel there's no way she could be palomino as cream is a dominant gene. Looks like silver bay to me as well - her mother too. Very pretty!


----------



## Not2Stable (May 22, 2021)

I apologize, all the pedigrees and colors are running together in my head. Her mother was Chestnut/Black top and bottom, and registered palamino. 
So treasure has sorrel top palamino bottom and registered palamino.


----------



## Not2Stable (May 22, 2021)

Kattington said:


> If her parents truly were black and sorrel there's no way she could be palomino as cream is a dominant gene. Looks like silver bay to me as well - her mother too. Very pretty!


I‘m starting to think either she is mis-registered along with her mother, the only other explanation I can come up with is that her grand parent was listed as black but carried cream gene.


----------



## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

My trainer had a palomino MFT mare for sale that was a light palomino in her winter coat then turned yellowish brown in the summer coat. I was surprised how brown she turned.


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

She looks silver bay and her mother does look palimino. However if she really is palimino x sorrel like you say, its not possible for her to be bay. Any pictures of the sire? Is the sire definitely the right sire?


----------



## Kattington (Jun 26, 2013)

Not2Stable said:


> I‘m starting to think either she is mis-registered along with her mother, the only other explanation I can come up with is that her grand parent was listed as black but carried cream gene.


It is possible that her grand parent was registered as black but had cream as cream on black creates a smoky brown color if it shows at all. If you're really curious, UC Davis offers a coat genetic test that seems pretty reliable. That would tell you for sure what color she is.


----------



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Hope our color gurus show up, they are phenomenal at it! I just wanted to say, she is a nice, nice horse!


----------



## Not2Stable (May 22, 2021)

ApuetsoT said:


> She looks silver bay and her mother does look palimino. However if she really is palimino x sorrel like you say, its not possible for her to be bay. Any pictures of the sire? Is the sire definitely the right sire?


I don’t have pictures of her sire, only the registration papers. she is almost a carbon copy of her mothers coloration, the only picture I have off the two of them together doesn’t really do her mother any justice. In person they could pass for identical twins. Her mother even shows the same grey/silver coloration in the same areas, that is really what got me started looking into the genetics. silver affects black the same way cream affects red if I’m not mistaken, but there is no cream gene that i can see.


----------



## Not2Stable (May 22, 2021)

Kattington said:


> It is possible that her grand parent was registered as black but had cream as cream on black creates a smoky brown color if it shows at all. If you're really curious, UC Davis offers a coat genetic test that seems pretty reliable. That would tell you for sure what color she is.


I‘m probably going to get her tested, I was just seeing if someone could identify some tell tale sign that I missed or that points to one or the other before going through the testing process.


----------



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

In the first picture, it looks like she has lighter hair around her coronary bands - that is a telltale sign of red. I think your horse is a dark shade of palomino.

Her black grandparent apparently was carrying cream, as it does not affect black pigment visually in any way.

If you test, please update us with the results.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

This is one that I'd say test. While silver will hide on a red and cream hide on a black neither of those is documented in the three generations prior on the dam. Not to say if they aren't there they can't be carried hidden and then passed but if dam is truly a palomino then the black parent is carrying cream and since you then have palomino to sorrel you would not have black or bay possible.


----------



## Not2Stable (May 22, 2021)

phantomhorse13 said:


> In the first picture, it looks like she has lighter hair around her coronary bands - that is a telltale sign of red. I think your horse is a dark shade of palomino.
> 
> Her black grandparent apparently was carrying cream, as it does not affect black pigment visually in any way.
> 
> If you test, please update us with the results.


We are going to test her. Not knowing for sure would eventually drive me crazy. We have had her for about 5 years now and it didn‘t bother me enough to run the tests. We recently decided to breed some of our mares as all of our horses are starting to get up in age. While researching the genetics behind coat color to determine possible color outcomes from our chosen stud, (my curiosity got the better of me), I ran across some research linking homozygous silver genes to an elevated risk of multiple eye diseases/disorders. Unfortunately, we didn‘t realize this prior to breeding Treasure. We were very lucky that our stud isn‘t a silver carrier, and we want to know for sure whether she does carry the silver gene, in case we decide to breed her again in the future.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Even the heterozygous are effected. Not to the extent that a homozygous horse is and the effect seems to be limited to cyst formation.


----------



## Not2Stable (May 22, 2021)

QtrBel said:


> This is one that I'd say test. While silver will hide on a red and cream hide on a black neither of those is documented in the three generations prior on the dam. Not to say if they aren't there they can't be carried hidden and then passed but if dam is truly a palomino then the black parent is carrying cream and since you then have palomino to sorrel you would not have black or bay possible.


The only reason I didn‘t rule out silver is because her sire’s dam was listed as “blue roan”, with neither of the parents having the roan gene, and there are also some grey listings in her history. The specific pattern of colors that were listed in her parentage could have allowed a silver gene to pass to her undetected if masked by grey gene. The colors listed on her pedigree just don’t add up, and with the newer discoveries in color genetics it is highly likely that some of ancestors were mis identified. This is her Dam’s pedigree, there is really only two places that the cream gene could have originated. And they were 4 generations back....


----------



## Not2Stable (May 22, 2021)

QtrBel said:


> Even the heterozygous are effected. Not to the extent that a homozygous horse is and the effect seems to be limited to cyst formation.


Exactly, the cysts may be undetectable except by eye examination. And i’m not entirely sure whether they are guaranteed to develop or there is an increased risk or when they usually develop ie early or late in life. She has never had any medical issues that would have warranted an eye exam, and it never occurred to us to have her checked until now. The next time she goes to the vet we will get them to check her just to be sure. And i will be doing more research in the meantime.


----------



## Not2Stable (May 22, 2021)

QtrBel said:


> This is one that I'd say test. While silver will hide on a red and cream hide on a black neither of those is documented in the three generations prior on the dam. Not to say if they aren't there they can't be carried hidden and then passed but if dam is truly a palomino then the black parent is carrying cream and since you then have palomino to sorrel you would not have black or bay possible.


And also the change in color listing from either sorrel or chestnut and then listing one horse as chestnut/sorrel stands out and makes me want to think flaxen chestnut is a third possibility. But I haven't researched the flaxen gene characteristics yet.


----------



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Not2Stable said:


> I haven't researched the flaxen gene characteristics yet.


So far, no gene has been identified that controls flaxen. Some think its just not been found yet, others think it is likely polygenic. 

If you are breeding, I think its a super smart idea to know exactly what you are dealing with.


----------



## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

Wow, what a beautiful horse.

The colors that some breeds bring to the table are absolutely astonishing. I myself own a Arabian x Rocky Mountain and pictures just do not do him justice. Parts of him turn golden in the summer months, other parts are dappled all over, his mane has flaxen sprinkled in...I could stare at him for hours in the sun. I don't know the color of his dam (the Rocky Mountain) but if I had to guess I'd say she was probably chocolate, while I believe his sire (registered Arabian) was chestnut (but I could be wrong).










Good luck on your color/gene journey. I settled on calling my horse brown, haha!


----------



## Not2Stable (May 22, 2021)

ClearDonkey said:


> Wow, what a beautiful horse.
> 
> The colors that some breeds bring to the table are absolutely astonishing. I myself own a Arabian x Rocky Mountain and pictures just do not do him justice. Parts of him turn golden in the summer months, other parts are dappled all over, his mane has flaxen sprinkled in...I could stare at him for hours in the sun. I don't know the color of his dam (the Rocky Mountain) but if I had to guess I'd say she was probably chocolate, while I believe his sire (registered Arabian) was chestnut (but I could be wrong).
> 
> ...


Thank you! I love the look of Arabians, they are one of my 3 favorite breeds. 
The multitude of different color combinations and variations is just mind-blowing. I said the same thing about two weeks ago, ”she’s dark brown”, and started doing a little research. I soon discovered that, genetically speaking, horse colors are either red or black. Kinda made me stare blankly at the computer screen, while scratching my head, for a few minutes to process it. I then proceeded down a rabbit hole for the better part of the last week and a half..... and I still don’t/won‘t know for sure until we get her tested. 😂


----------



## keelan (Jan 5, 2010)

Kattington said:


> If her parents truly were black and sorrel there's no way she could be palomino as cream is a dominant gene. Looks like silver bay to me as well - her mother too. Very pretty!


If you can imagine a palomino appearance as a dilute chestnut... but I think she is more to the liver side of chestnut with flaxen mane and tail. My liver chestnut is lighter in winter and has gold tones to her summer coat.


----------

