# Western dressage-stretched collection



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

THat was awesome!!! simply a joy to watch. the horse was so relaxed, so responsive, in self carriage, and the rider was so soft, balanced. 

and the long stick? the line it makes, or the point it makes without straying, do not LIE. 

That's one of the nicest rides I've ever seen.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Very nice!! Thanks for posting that video. I have been worried about where western dressage might be heading. Some videos show horses in western tack being cranked and made into English dressage horses with a western saddle. This is what I think western dressage ought to be.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

This demonstrates a nice low level of training wanted for western dressage.
The horse shows acceptance of the bridle and maintains a basic rhythm throughout the test. It is about what I would expect for an accurate first/second level test. Note that I say accurate and not good, or high scoring. For that the horse needs to be a bit further along, and more consistent.

Is it collected? No. Not in a dressage sense. The horse is most often weighted on the forehand, there is loss of rhythm before the lead swaps, the lateral work is not confirmed and the horse does not show an ability to maintain self carriage.
There are some (a lot) of basic dressage training principles missing here and the horse (and rider) would be well served to go back to the basics and solidify them before attempting to perform the "tricks" seen in this video.

Collection is power. Collection is having the horse on a breath of an aid. Collection is riding on the edge of insanity. This test shows none of those things. It is very laboured and at times, imbalanced.
However, as I said before, it is a good demonstration of a horse preparing for a first or second level WD test.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think many European dressage competitors could learn something from some of these western riders!!!
This is Cowboy Dressage btw - not Western Dressage or European Dressage and shouldn't be compared with either. 
We watched a clinic/demonstration by Eitan recently and he went to great lengths to explain that it is not about perfection but about training horses that can be more useful on the trails and all other aspects of Western riding but most of all its about having fun.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Put "dressage" in a name, and it's going to get judged like dressage 
I would love to see the horse confirmed in the training before arriving to the show and being asked to perform movements only at his current level, instead of beyond them. IMO the horse is overfaced.


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

Subbing to watch later.. My phone doesn't want to let it fully download -.-


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Really cool to watch, I wonder how many times he accidentally bumped his horse with the pole when practicing that lol!


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## Ale (May 8, 2013)

Western Dressage? I didn't even know there was such a thing. I have always enjoyed watching dressage, but I am more of a Western person right now. So to know that option is somewhere out there, is really cool.

(I will have to watch this video later, since I am at work right now :3 )


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> This demonstrates a nice low level of training wanted for western dressage.


I can't even begin to express how negative I feel towards this response. It just goes to show you are just not "getting it". Dressage is not a term that only applies to "english" riding. It simply needs to be translated to it's original meaning of *training*. A true western horse should NEVER be held to the traditional english standards.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I am not a fan of Western, normally but I really liked this. The horse and rider both seemed relaxed and comfortable. Looked like a fun routine.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The very reason that Eitan distanced himself and his Cowboy Dressage away from Western Dressage is because he didn't want it to be judged in the same was as Western or European dressage and it never will be
He is originally from Israel and later spent a lot of time at the Spanish Riding School so to him "Dressage' just means Training and his tests are designed to test the skills of a western working or trail horse
One example he showed was in the tests where they walk or trot over ground poles - the poles aren't placed in any particular related distance because on a trail fallen branches or trees aren't carefully laid out and horse and rider have to learn how to shorten/lengthen a stride to negotiate them
If you're looking at Cowboy Dressage and wanting the same out of it as you get from European Dressage then its not for you and best to just move on as Eitan's philosophy is not open to argument


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

It's nice to see no tie downs or any ""contraptions"" that keeps his mouth closed or his head curved in.

Alright Brisco - get off you lazy butt and lets see if we can do this without falling!! --Because I don't think we can!!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Put "dressage" in a name, and it's going to get judged like dressage
> I would love to see the horse confirmed in the training before arriving to the show and being asked to perform movements only at his current level, instead of beyond them. IMO the horse is overfaced.


No put dressage in the name and YOU are going to start judging against your version of dressage, as Jaydee says, best you move on.

Loved the video, thanks for sharing, beautiful work.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> I can't even begin to express how negative I feel towards this response. It just goes to show you are just not "getting it". Dressage is not a term that only applies to "english" riding. It simply needs to be translated to it's original meaning of *training*. A true western horse should NEVER be held to the traditional english standards.


Ok sorry I just re read that and yes, it sounds terrible.
What I meant is that it shows a level of training appropriate for a low level WD test, or just plain dressage. Ack. Not that WD is just low level.
That will teach me for posting in a hurry!

WD is MUCH more than this video shows and I would not be touting this video as a good example of mid/upper level WD training. IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> ...It just goes to show you are just not "getting it". Dressage is not a term that only applies to "english" riding. It simply needs to be translated to it's original meaning of *training*...


If you do that, we no longer have a word to describe the style of riding that we now call "dressage". If I dressage my mare to take long, flat strides with roughly 57% of her weight on her front end, then what do we call a sport where the goal is a collected gait? If I dressage my horse to accept no contact, then what do we call a "dressage training scale" that requires contact? 

We have a word in English that covers training: "training". Defining dressage as training gives us nothing, but robs us of a useful word describing a sport and tradition.

Since dressage has been in use in the USA for a long time meaning one thing, I suggest the new sport change its name to something like 'Collected Western Riding'. Or maybe "Western Fun" instead of "Western Pleasure", or "Classical European Western Riding"? Or "Classique Western Riding européenne", or "Circonscription de l'Ouest", or "Cheval Occidental"?

"Morte circonscription européenne Homme de chevaux", anyone?

And blame Google translate for any errors...


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> No put dressage in the name and YOU are going to start judging against your version of dressage, as Jaydee says, best you move on.
> 
> Loved the video, thanks for sharing, beautiful work.


Actually, I mean this quite literally. WD competitions are judged by dressage certified judges.
I also agree with bsms. If they didn't want to be compared with dressage, maybe calling it "riding in a 20x40 area in western tack" might have been more appropriate 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Ok sorry I just re read that and yes, it sounds terrible.
> What I meant is that it shows a level of training appropriate for a low level WD test, or just plain dressage. Ack. Not that WD is just low level.
> That will teach me for posting in a hurry!
> 
> ...


 How many times do I have to say this before it sinks in - the person in this video is *not* competing in a WD event - this is Cowboy Dressage. Not the same thing and not judged in the same way.
And
The word dressage was used for training long before the FEI existed - its just one of those French words that has never been translated into anything else
Also
I don't recall there being any uproar about driving horses having dressage tests and they aren't even ridden


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Ah, yes but the driving horses do real dressage - have you seen a 4 in hand dressage test? It is something to behold. The teams also usually consist of horses already trained in dressage under tack, and the horses are regularly schooled ridden.
They ask for SI, counter canter, etc.. and by golly the horses do it, and well! Very nice to watch.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

ETA WD encompasses all dressage is western tack - does it not? That's what I see in the video. A dressage test in western tack. Or is it a guy in western tack and a stick riding around inside a white fence with letters and a judge? Sorry for confusing the two, guess I'm just too dumb to understand 
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Maybe they do but it still isn't European dressage so the argument that some people want to use against 'cowboys in western saddles that want to show off their practical training skills would apply to the dressage done by horses pulling carts because its 'not the same'
And yes I have seen it - its very popular in the UK.
Eitan's clinic at the Equine Affaire was better attended than most of the others there and a lot of hands went up when he asked how many of the audience rode European dressage - and they were as enthusiastic as the western people watching because they saw and understood the concept of what he's trying to achieve


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I really would like to see the critics do what the guy did...a fairly young horse, between 4and 6, bitless, and with the garrocha in one, the reins in the other hand. Video, maybe? Oh, hat is not necessary...


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## Weezilla (Aug 3, 2012)

I've tried to reply twice but have given up each time. I don't seem to be able to articulate my thoughts tonight I'm going to put this on the backburner and try again later.

But I very much enjoyed the freestyle.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I love this! To me whenever Cowboy dressage is mentioned this is what I think of! In my opinion the horse displays the western sense of collection: a willing animal who is pliable for the rider, will use his power to get moving/stopping/doing whatever you need and willingly working for the rider (I'm using working in the sense of when I ask it's done, no if ands or buts) and above all, comfortable where his body is positioned and never pushed out of that. That's just my opinion and what I was taught 'western collection' was. 

I think above all though I love the fact that there's no real drag to the horses step. The horse doesn't look bored with the same routine or like he's making the rider work and is just pretty at ease with his job. I've seen a few european dressage videos (and western dressage ones too) where I feel bad for the riders having to work that hard on a horse that should know better or those that look like they really don't enjoy their job (that goes for riders AND horses). It's like Eitan said, above all else you have to enjoy it and have fun with it. 

Maybe that's why I like cowboy dressage..... it's based on the fact that you have to enjoy doing it to be successful.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think 'having fun' and getting people out there enjoying themselves and taking part is what its all about.
If anyone can go out there and give something a try without feeling ridiculed or intimidated then they will keep on doing it and improving every time
The 'person' on the mule at the end of this is wonderful!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zjVHa3TJFU


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

That mule one got me laughing so hard! And I love how she patted her mount before saluting lol that's probably something I'd do. 

It may just be coincidence or me being too observant but I'm seeing the trend that when a horse has a more classical headset or is more 'up' like an english horse that the rider has a more english way of holding the reins? And when the horse is more western they have a more western way of holding the reins? Just something I'm noticing. Maybe that's just me being stupid though lol


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm usually majorly turned off of anything with the word "dressage" in it. I've found NO consistent definition of the term, I've seen everything from beautiful rides to some serious animal abuse all under the title of "dressage".
So I was SO pleased to see this beautiful ride. Magnificent is all I can say.

Thank you for sharing.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I really would like to see the critics do what the guy did...a fairly young horse, between 4and 6, bitless, and with the garrocha in one, the reins in the other hand. Video, maybe? Oh, hat is not necessary...



My thoughts exactly! Thank you, and also thanks Golden. That horse was so soft, so happy in his work, so willing. The tempo so consistent and the rider so sercure and trusting in his mount. it was a joy to watch! Not often do I see Dressage mounts as happy and relaxed in their work as that young horse. And the stick, manipulating it, while doing everything else with the horse in your other hand, is a bit like playing guitar; picking out the cords on one hand, and strumming or picking with the other.

I think the rider was wonderful! there was no sense of force , or of waterskiing off the hrose's mouth, or goading the horse with spurs that you see in dressage so much. I know nothing about Cowboy dressage. this is the first time I've seen it. But, that was a beautiful ride! nothing more, nothing less.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> ETA WD encompasses all dressage is western tack - does it not? That's what I see in the video. A dressage test in western tack. Or is it a guy in western tack and a stick riding around inside a white fence with letters and a judge? Sorry for confusing the two, guess I'm just too dumb to understand
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


Ahhh....don't tempt me to respond!!

Western dressage and cowboy dressage are as similar as hunters is to jumpers. Just because they both use English saddles doesn't mean they have the same principles. The same with WD and CD. remember, piaffe wasn't even a recognized move in competition until the 330's. Things change....dressage changes and morphs.

True dressage was training Haute Ecole... which is something you just don't see unless you go to Vienna. Do you see lavade and courbette in dressage tests? No, because it has evolved beyond that to become something quite different.

If you want to hoard the term dressage, too bad. It can...and DOES mean different things already.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

I have to agree with anabel and bsms on this. I think that using "dressage" as merely a synonym for training minimizes the meticulous detail and tremendous effort that goes in to something like a half pass (which in this video, is rather poorly performed). It's not that I didn't enjoy the video-- on the contrary, I quite loved it! It brought a smile to my face. But just as show jumping, cutting, reining... all other disciplines have their defining "term," dressage is dressage. It is a discipline which makes relaxation, collection, straightness, responsiveness, and many more qualities a simultaneous goal.

I wouldn't weave in-and-out over the low rail of a dressage arena and call it show jumping.  So I would hope that another person would have the same respect for my discipline.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> Western dressage and cowboy dressage are as similar as hunters is to jumpers.


If hunters and jumpers deserve their own distinctive names as disciplines (and yet both involve jumping over a fence, no?), I see no reason for people to be up-in-arms at the idea of dressage being preserved as dressage, its own discipline. It's not fair to dilute down such a rich concept into subtypes that only slight resemble the original-- and call it by the same name (IMHO!).

ETA... I appreciate the idea and goals of Western Dressage! I just feel that perhaps it is a discipline that merits a unique name. Just my opinions here!


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

So I've been following this debate a little bit and felt the need to get a real definition of the word "Dressage" since everyone seems to have a different definition.
Here's what I found "the art of riding and training a horse in a manner that develops obedience, flexibility, and balance"
IMO, the rider in this video performed all those things admirably. And I was thrilled to watch him do it without the intensity of the control I see in European Dressage. I feel like in European Dressage a horse isn't allowed to twitch a fly off without the rider's permission, it doesn't look fun to me. It's just not my style - I like to see flare and opinion from horses. I much rather watch a horse choose to do as the rider asks, than a horse made to do as the rider asks. Both of those things happen in _every_ style of riding. But this video was a fine example of a horse trained exceptionally well and very happy to do it.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> I feel like in European Dressage a horse isn't allowed to twitch a fly off without the rider's permission, it doesn't look fun to me.


Well this is a saddening generalization for me to read.  You know, expression/expressiveness is a characteristic for which a horse's movement is rated! I think that there is a misconception at work here. My quirky, rather expressive arab quite loves his dressage work! In fact, the only reason I got into dressage was because he wasn't happy in Western pleasure, so we tried competitive trail/endurance, jumping, gymkhana... and finally dressage. He loved it in a way that I never expected, so we kept at it and now it's something I am passionate about (even though I'm only schooling 2nd level!).

Sorry for the tangent.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

existentialpony said:


> Well this is a saddening generalization for me to read.  You know, expression/expressiveness is a characteristic for which a horse's movement is rated! I think that there is a misconception at work here. My quirky, rather expressive arab quite loves his dressage work! In fact, the only reason I got into dressage was because he wasn't happy in Western pleasure, so we tried competitive trail/endurance, jumping, gymkhana... and finally dressage. He loved it in a way that I never expected, so we kept at it and now it's something I am passionate about (even though I'm only schooling 2nd level!).
> 
> Sorry for the tangent.


It was meant to be a generalization, (ETA) I generalized it because it's my perception from what I see and have learned from European Dressage. While it may not have been the ideal of what it was supposed to be, or what the high levels aim for - it is what I see more often than I care to.
I went on to say:


PunksTank said:


> I much rather watch a horse choose to do as the rider asks, than a horse made to do as the rider asks. Both of those things happen in _every_ style of riding. But this video was a fine example of a horse trained exceptionally well and very happy to do it.


 Which it sound like your horse chooses to do and does enjoy European Dressage, which is wonderful 

But the main point of my statement was the the definition of the word "Dressage" is "the art of riding and training a horse in a manner that develops obedience, flexibility, and balance" - which the man in the video did exceptionally well. I wouldn't hesitate to say it fits the definition to a T


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

neat... I don't get the stick though....


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

PunksTank said:


> But the main point of my statement was the the definition of the word "Dressage" is "the art of riding and training a horse in a manner that develops obedience, flexibility, and balance" - which the man in the video did exceptionally well. I wouldn't hesitate to say it fits the definition to a T


Well, I would politely disagree with that definition of dressage as one that is thorough and accurate. Would you look up a complex concept like "love" in the dictionary, check off the characteristics and get married?  There's a reason people train in equestrian disciplines all of their lives. It isn't a checklist of general terms.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

existentialpony said:


> I have to agree with anabel and bsms on this.* I think that using "dressage" as merely a synonym for training minimizes the meticulous detail and tremendous effort that goes in to something like a half pass (which in this video, is rather poorly performed).*


 
I don't think they are using it simply as a synonym. They are working toward many similar principals. There will be variations because the principals will be a bit different. They are looking for "more" engagement, more suppleness, more lateral flexibility. This is in the infant stages. Trust me, traditional dressage has changed a LOT even since I first started competing. The "shoulder in" that is acceptable today was severely penalized when I first started riding dressage. Many of today's upper level movements are fairly new in the life of dressage competitions. 



> It's not that I didn't enjoy the video-- on the contrary, I quite loved it! It brought a smile to my face. But just as show jumping, cutting, reining... all other disciplines have their defining "term," dressage is dressage. It is a discipline which makes relaxation, collection, straightness, responsiveness, and many more qualities a simultaneous goal.


I simply disagree, that's all. I see where the principals of dressage can be morphed into working with the western disciplines. I guess I am just not so easily threatened by the term being used here.



> I wouldn't weave in-and-out over the low rail of a dressage arena and call it show jumping.  So I would hope that another person would have the same respect for my discipline.


hey, it's MY discipline too. But there is room for other uses. It's not like they will be confused...one from the other.

One thing that bothered me in the second video posted. Those riders were double handing curb bits and keeping way too much contact in an effort to duplicate the English type frame. That is what I hoped was not going to happen. There is good merit in a western horse moving like a western horse....like the first video. Way too heavy handed in the second video for my taste.

If they are going to try to DUPLICATE English dressage in a western saddle....then I can't totally agree with that.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

maybe they WOULD be better off to just jettison any reference to "dressage" and start their own tradition. it tends to mean that folks get too hung up on semantics, and lose sight of the horsemanship portrayed there.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Allison Finch said:


> hey, it's MY discipline too.


Sorry-- wasn't trying to take the monopoly on dressage! Lord knows I'm not the paragon of dressage riders... :wink:

I see your points-- spose we can't agree on everything! I just think that "working dressage" and "classical dressage" should be distinguished, and in such a case "working dressage" should be held to similarly rigorous standards. For example, weighting the hind end to start (which was an issue at times in the first video). That's all!


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

*dressage 
*


Equestrian sport involving the execution of precision movements by a trained horse in response to barely perceptible signals from its rider. Particularly important are the animal's pace and bearing in performing walks, trots,  canters, and more specialized maneuvers.

A competition in which horses perform special movements in response to signals from their riders

The execution by a trained horse of precision movements in response to barely perceptible signals from its rider 

French, from _dresser_ to train, drill, from Middle French First Known Use: 1936

A series of intricate steps, gaits, etc., taught to an exhibition horse.

The guiding of a horse through a series of complex maneuvers by slight movements of the rider's hands, legs, and weight.

Dressage is a French term meaning “training” and its purpose is to develop the horse’s natural athletic ability and willingness to work making him calm, supple and attentive to his rider.


Those are just a few definitions of Dressage, I actually looked up over 25 various Dictionaries..... Not a Single One of them Mentioned anything about English Style of Riding....

So it seems Cowboy Dressage and Western Dressage are just as Valid as English Dressage..... :twisted::twisted:


.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

I'm sorry. Thanks for that clarification... from now on I'll just refer to my free dictionary instead of paying my dressage trainer. Who knew it could be so simple? :twisted:

May as well buy myself a circus trick pony and call myself an FEI rider...


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

In the whole dressage debate I've always held the opinion that cowboy dressage and classical dressage all share the basic principles. 

Suppleness and willingness. Movements and expression, and rider's cues being quiet. 

To me the only difference is how they are achieved. For instance, if you look at QH reining and then look at Morgan horses reining there will be a distinct difference, same thing with western pleasure or any other discipline that is available in multiple horse associations. Slight differences but ultimately the same goal. After all, just because a Quarter Horse has a low headset in western pleasure, and then a Morgan has a higher one in the same class doesn't mean that the MHA should have to change the name because that doesn't embody traditional western pleasure. That's how I see cowboy dressage vs. classical dressage, just dressage for a different breed/style (slight differences, but same basic results). 

I too ride dressage and in my opinion western dressage doesn't take anything away from 'classical' dressage and shouldn't be held to the same standards as it. That's like Telling the Morgan Horse Association that all of their Morgans in a western pleasure class need to have the QH headset/speed. Why bother? Differences are good. "Dressage" is just a word, just like reining or jumping, or western pleasure are just words. Good horsemanship is number one in my book, I could care less about what discipline you want to call it or what word it is or isn't. I judge a rider based on how they ride, not what name they ride under.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

existentialpony said:


> May as well buy myself a circus trick pony and call myself an FEI rider...


 
AH, but FEI dressage has its standards, just as the other types of dressage....western, gaited etc...do. Tricks won't work anywhere, I suspect!! :twisted:

Very well said, Incitatus!! My feelings exactly.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Let me toss this out for thought:

In the western tradition, there is a style of riding that emphasizes collection - the California Vaquero tradition. It is a demanding approach to riding, involving many of the same principles used in dressage, but with some very different tack and results. It is truly a western style of riding, with a longer history than the Texas approach.

I don't know a whole lot about it, but this particular trainer works a young horse thru 4 stages: snaffle, hackamore, two-rein and finally a spade bit.

Vaquero method horse training

It seems to me someone could sit down with vaqueros, dressage riders, reiners, cowboy dressage fans, etc and work out a graduated scale of training, with success in required events before a horse could move to the next stage. Someone could start with their snaffle trained horse, but look at progressive training in relaxed, free and loose movement until ready to move into a bosal or hackamore. And so on, with a requirement that the horse achieve a certain score before he could be competed in the next category of bit & training.

The end result would share some aspects of the riding done in dressage, yet be unique and proud of its centuries old traditions. And each person could decide how far they wanted to progress. If you wanted to stay at the snaffle level, you could. If you wanted a true bridle horse, you would expect to take years of work to get there.

That way, instead of doing dressage in a western saddle, you would be training a horse in an old and honored tradition, using the tack that came from that tradition.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*


existentialpony said:



I have to agree with anabel and bsms on this. I think that using "dressage" as merely a synonym for training minimizes the meticulous detail and tremendous effort that goes in to something like a half pass (which in this video, is rather poorly performed).

Click to expand...

*


existentialpony said:


> That 'half pass' you are so expertly being critical of is actually a leg yield
> 
> *So I would hope that another person would have the same respect for my discipline.[/QUOTE*]
> There are plenty of people that do European dressage that are also competing in WD & CD and have no problem with them using the word dressage.
> ...


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

jaydee said:


> That 'half pass' you are so expertly being critical of is actually a leg yield


Wow... aggressive much? I don't remember describing myself as an expert. On the contrary, actually. And...at 0:50, the horse's nose is either straight or with the direction of travel. That is a half pass. (especially apparent when he turns and faces the camera) A leg yield would be away from the direction of travel. Again at 2:01, which could be either an incorrect leg yield or an incorrect half pass at different moments... and that was my point.

Can we refrain from petty or aggressive comments and focus on a healthy debate? This thread is a good one.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I just found it refreshing that there was a decent degree of collection and self carriage and the rider's knuckles were not white. I saw a very nice example of good training and a 'test' where training is the means and not the end. I saw a useful horse that can do a lot of other useful things; that is the end here and not the 'test' itself being the 'end'. 

As a person that 'uses' horses and trains horses that have 'jobs', I thoroughly enjoyed the video. While the horse is young and not 100% consistent yet, it shows no bad effects from intimidation and force. This guy can come and ride any of my horses an time. Sorry, but I would not want many 'European Dressage' riders on my horses.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Bravo! well said!


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

Cherie said:


> I just found it refreshing that there was a decent degree of collection and self carriage and the rider's knuckles were not white. I saw a very nice example of good training and a 'test' where training is the means and not the end. I saw a useful horse that can do a lot of other useful things; that is the end here and not the 'test' itself being the 'end'.
> 
> As a person that 'uses' horses and trains horses that have 'jobs', I thoroughly enjoyed the video. While the horse is young and not 100% consistent yet, it shows no bad effects from intimidation and force. This guy can come and ride any of my horses an time. Sorry, but I would not want many 'European Dressage' riders on my horses.


Hear hear, Cherie! In a way this is a lot more like (good) Classical Dressage than modern European dressage - self-carriage, improvement of the horse's physical abilities for more than just the sake of performing movements, etc. Plus (as bsms pointed out) the relationship here to Doma Vaquero, with the use of a garrocha pole. This is a young horse, still learning, but he's already showing lovely self-carriage and softness. I'd much rather be seen riding like this than like the vast majority of competitive FEI Dressage riders...


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> *Collection is riding on the edge of insanity.* .


 
Not in any training from any coach I have ever had, would you be told to ride a horse into hysteria. Power, yes. Insanity, NEVER! And, I've ridden for Dutch and German coaches most of my life. _ have been taught to partner with my horses, not dominate in this way._


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## Ninamebo (May 25, 2013)

I don't know enough about the difference btwn cowboy dressage and western dressage to fully comment, but I do know that this video was a great example of a partnership and communication btwn a man and his pony, the horse was relaxed and supple and propelling from his hind end exactly as a QH should, and overall it was an absolute joy to watch, thanks for posting!

And also, this thread is very interesting and informative- so thanks to all those who are helping me gain a slice more knowledge about an interesting topic Id love to try sometime! ( maybe even with the pole if I dare 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Wait, what? What's the difference between cowboy dressage and western dressage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

Has anyone seen this video?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqyV9kGQpEc

I like how the little quarter horse looks like he's trying to buck the guy off on the way out of the arena.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

^ I have I do like how the quarter horse just throws some little bucks in there to keep the guy on his toes lol.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> Let me toss this out for thought:
> 
> In the western tradition, there is a style of riding that emphasizes collection - the California Vaquero tradition. It is a demanding approach to riding, involving many of the same principles used in dressage, but with some very different tack and results. It is truly a western style of riding, with a longer history than the Texas approach.
> 
> That way, instead of doing dressage in a western saddle, you would be training a horse in an old and honored tradition, using the tack that came from that tradition.


The man in the video that the OP posted is Jeff Sanders from Modern Vaquero. He travels all over the world promoting it
He and many other Vaquero inspired riders have already teamed up with Eitan and his Cowboy Dressage movement to both use it as a showcase for their skills and to put fresh ideas into this very new and still evolving western competition
Dancing Arabian - Eitan split from WD because he could see it becoming just Euro dressage in western tack and he wasn't happy with the FEI involvement or the judging ideas they had.
It was always his and Jack Brainards vision that it would be all about the western horse and about practical riding skills not rigidity, perfection and finesse. He uses different lettering and a very different test format
Existentialpony - I apologise for sounding aggressive but I am sick to death of the pointless petty arguments that come up every time someone mentions WD or CD. No one owns the word dressage and there is plenty of room for all disciplines
Any sport that gets people doing stuff with their horses is good for the horse industry as a whole and any sport that encourages people to challenge themselves without intimidating the less able and those that can't afford high end expensive horses to improve is good too
From the part of the video I looked at I saw no intentional bend of the horse to imply that he was trying to perform a half pass
Drifting - what is really good in that video you linked too is that when they swap horses the western rider has no problem getting the euro dressage horse to perform and vice versa - because the aids/cues used in both styles of riding are the same


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'd love to see the Cowboy Dressage program evolve to incorporate the Vaquero approach. There is already a progressive approach used in training a bridle horse, the process takes years, and it has distinct stages in training that would lend themselves to setting different levels of performance.

A recreational rider like myself - someone who rides perhaps 4 hours/week and won't ride more due to work, school and all those others things of daily life - could work on training my horse for modest collection in the snaffle stage (not quite traditional, but it would create a useful entry stage for recreational riders, most of whom already use snaffles). Call it Level 1 & 2 as you perform with better control and collection. 

As she did better, I could move her into bosal or perhaps a bitless sidepull. For my purposes, I'd probably never try to move on to the next stage, and that would be OK. I could compete, and anyone glancing at her would know I was at 'Level 3 or 4', which would be the bosal stages.

It would share some of the goals and training used in traditional dressage, but it would be very obvious it is NOT traditional dressage. It would also be truly 'western riding', with centuries of tradition and easily identifiable by non-riders as still being 'western'. Maybe it is just me, but if I were to compete - highly unlikely - but if I were to do so, I'd like to have a tie-in with genuine history and tradition instead of making one up.








​ 
Gotta admit though - I don't have the gut to be able to dress like that! On me, it just wouldn't be the same...:wink:


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Allison Finch said:


> Not in any training from any coach I have ever had, would you be told to ride a horse into hysteria. Power, yes. Insaity, NEVER! And, I've ridden for Dutch and German coaches most of my life. _ have been taught to partner with my horses, not dominate in this way._


It is not domination or control, quite the opposite actually! Riding such that the horse is at his maximum of expression while still maintaining enough control to ride through the test. It's trusting the horse to stay on the aid while riding the biggest 2s of your life with your hands infront of you and your eyes closed.
It's very thrilling, and how I began to score over 70% in the small tour.

It's the opposite of the heavy handed and clunky test in the OP. Instead of the horse dull-ly waiting for the next command, he is asking "what next?" And enthusiastic in the test. Collection is riding on that edge, knowing the horse is with you, but there is the chance of the spontaneous act of excitement or joy. It's riding for an 8.
But my horses love their jobs and to perform to their best ability and maximum expression in the dressage arena. They don't do it simply because I might pop them over a few jumps as a reward. The extended trot is the reward.

Please do not insult my passion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Find his video on YouTube, Jonatan Peña con Rompesueño final cpto España doma vaquera .....now THAT'S some riding and what I would consider western dressage. That horse is so light he can go in any direction the rider asks at any time. This is what I want for my horse....no matter the tack.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Bsms I would love for them to incorporate the traditional style in as well! I think it would be perfect for upper levels or even a different test layout! (I would do it in a heartbeat and I'm like you, recreational, though you and mia would look amazing in that ;-) ). 

Quote: "It's the opposite of the heavy handed and clunky test in the OP. Instead of the horse dull-ly waiting for the next command, he is asking "what next?"" End Quote. Aneble this is coming from a predominately western rider, that horse was eager for his job. It might not be eager as in the "up" and english sense, but trust me, for a working horse he was ready to go. I didn't see the rider being too heavy handed or clunky, or the horse too dull. The horse was waiting for the next list of instructions and when given them does them to his best ability. I've noticed at least in the western riding community around me that our horses though they might be eager they are taught to be calm and still and wait for the rider to say: "NOW, strut your stuff" or "Go get that cow". This is dully important when your doing cattle work or using the horse to complete a job as you don't want the horse to be moving all over or scaring the cows or running away from you. Western horses can be expressive, and in my experience are encouraged to be but there is a time and place for everything. They don't have the outward motion of warmbloods or classical dressage horses, instead they show the western working horse form of eagerness. 

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that as a western rider even when I ride a dressage horse be it european or western, I want to be able to let them express themselves to the fullest as you said but then be able to immediately stop them, ground tie them and walk away for ten minuets to fix the fence and for them to stay there. Go to a western barn that has working horses and you'll see that they DO love their jobs, get excited and prance around but when the rider says to settle down they put every ounce of that excitement into their job to do it well.  As for the "clunkieness" of the test, those were all traditional moves for a working western horse. And the guy's hands were softer than some of the other dressage rider's I've seen.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Incitatus32 said:


> Bsms I would love for them to incorporate the traditional style in as well! I think it would be perfect for upper levels or even a different test layout! (I would do it in a heartbeat and I'm like you, recreational, though you and mia would look amazing in that ;-) ).
> 
> Quote: "It's the opposite of the heavy handed and clunky test in the OP. Instead of the horse dull-ly waiting for the next command, he is asking "what next?"" End Quote. Aneble this is coming from a predominately western rider, that horse was eager for his job. It might not be eager as in the "up" and english sense, but trust me, for a working horse he was ready to go. I didn't see the rider being too heavy handed or clunky, or the horse too dull. The horse was waiting for the next list of instructions and when given them does them to his best ability. I've noticed at least in the western riding community around me that our horses though they might be eager they are taught to be calm and still and wait for the rider to say: "NOW, strut your stuff" or "Go get that cow". This is dully important when your doing cattle work or using the horse to complete a job as you don't want the horse to be moving all over or scaring the cows or running away from you. Western horses can be expressive, and in my experience are encouraged to be but there is a time and place for everything. They don't have the outward motion of warmbloods or classical dressage horses, instead they show the western working horse form of eagerness.
> 
> I suppose what I'm trying to say is that as a western rider even when I ride a dressage horse be it european or western, I want to be able to let them express themselves to the fullest as you said but then be able to immediately stop them, ground tie them and walk away for ten minuets to fix the fence and for them to stay there. Go to a western barn that has working horses and you'll see that they DO love their jobs, get excited and prance around but when the rider says to settle down they put every ounce of that excitement into their job to do it well.  As for the "clunkieness" of the test, those were all traditional moves for a working western horse. And the guy's hands were softer than some of the other dressage rider's I've seen.


Ah, but this is dressage, not working a horse on the farm to fix a fence!
The test is very halted, there is little flow, many movements are performed in an unsatisfactory fashion. Dressage is about precision and lightness. The horse should not have to wait for the aid, the rider should prepare the horse to smoothly and flawlessly perform the next movement with no hesitation.

This is my point, call it what you want. But dressage is a discipline. WD has done a decent enough job of recognizing that and rewarding correct dressage work in a western gait. If what's his name and his CD doesn't want to be associated or close to dressage and wants to hold riding a young horse in a complicated test with half pass and changes and overface the horse with little to no collection or any ideals in dressage - don't call it dressage. Call it ""Vaquero tests" or "western equitation tests" or really anything to describe what is actually the goal. I don't describe grass as red or the sky orange. Words have meaning for a purpose and dressage in a very base form can be brought down to the training scale.
Looking at OP I see rhythm, relaxation, acceptance of the contact (but not yet true contact), no schwung, straightness is far beyond the training of the horse and therefore collection is not possible. It is lower level.


As well, RE all the awful comments about FEI dressage riders - a short rein does not mean a hard hand, and theses riders have worked their entire lives to ride in their discipline. I don't make a habit of calling reiners crap riders (probably because my Reiner friends would smack me lol), or go around to people telling them that Ludger Beerbaum can't ride and what the hell are they doing riding "x discipline" because it's awful and mean to the horse.

WD is a great new addition to sport, IMO and it gets a lot of new people involved. However we cannot forget the Dressage part, the dressage training, etc.. a WD horse is just a dressage horse in western gaits and tack. All the ideals remain the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

I wonder if riding with a pole out like that would help me achieve the perfect circle  Got to love WD - they are so creative!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> It is not domination or control, quite the opposite actually! Riding such that the horse is at his maximum of expression while still maintaining enough control to ride through the test. It's trusting the horse to stay on the aid while riding the biggest 2s of your life with your hands infront of you and your eyes closed.
> It's very thrilling, and how I began to score over 70% in the small tour.


Anebel, I understand what riding FEI feels like. I have competed at these levels. It is all about a full partnership with your horse. Riding to the edge of insanity has nothing to do with GP or any other level. If it does seek to achieve that "feeling" it is going after the wrong achievement, IMHO.

That just sounds too much like what I saw in some of the saddleseat shows I went to. Fire extinguishers and plastic bags used to jazz the horse until it was "on the edge of insanity". No place for that in a dressage ring.



> It's the opposite of the heavy handed and clunky test in the OP. Instead of the horse dull-ly waiting for the next command, he is asking "what next?" And enthusiastic in the test. Collection is riding on that edge, knowing the horse is with you, but there is the chance of the spontaneous act of excitement or joy. It's riding for an 8.
> But my horses love their jobs and to perform to their best ability and maximum expression in the dressage arena.* They don't do it simply because I might pop them over a few jumps as a reward. *The extended trot is the reward.
> 
> Please do not insult my passion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A reward by doing something the horse loves is a reward. Every horse has motivations and loves and they just might be a little different from horse to horse. Somehow I just don't treat horses or their training as being like they are coming out of a cookie cutter.


You just never cease to amaze me with your judgmental pronouncements. To keep myself from becoming equally rude and judgmental, I will try not to respond to your posts for a while. People with the attitudes like yours is what made FEI competitions so unpleasant to me that I decided to compete elsewhere. I found that prestige was what people in these competitions were seeking too often, more than a deeper partnership with their horses. And far too often the horse suffered as a result. I decided if I wanted to continue to love dressage, I would get into training and teaching my love instead.

I welcome any discipline that seeks to forge a better understanding and partnership with their horses. And FEI level dressage is not the only way this can be done.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

And thank you for suggesting I do not have a partnership with my horses, and treat them as cookie cutters. Wonderful assessment there Allison.

I try to explain my views to yoi, only to be shut down again and again. I do understandin you have ridden FEI. Understand I have also, and currently am training and competing at those levels. Aspirations should not be looked down upon, as you and others seem to want to do. My horses love to compete and my big FEI horse gets very upset if he is not the one getting on the trailer!

If you call something dressage - it should be considered as part of that umbrella of training, IMO. And FEI dressage is the standard that Dressage is based off of!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If that horse had been ridden in a heavy handed way it would not have looked so relaxed. A horse that's being ridden on a hard hand is going to look fractious and have a gaping resistant mouth - or have it fastened shut with a flash strap
The Vaquero's will use the freestyle section of Cowboy dressage to showcase themselves but to have it solely for Vaquero riding would exclude it to so many working western horses that don't want to go in that direction
If you want to understand and appreciate what CD is trying to do then you have to put all thoughts of Euro dressage out of your head and stop trying to compare them
Its no different to the US Hunter classes that are totally different to the UK ones - no point trying to judge them against each other


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

jaydee said:


> If that horse had been ridden in a heavy handed way it would not have looked so relaxed. A horse that's being ridden on a hard hand is going to look fractious and have a gaping resistant mouth - or have it fastened shut with a flash strap
> The Vaquero's will use the freestyle section of Cowboy dressage to showcase themselves but to have it solely for Vaquero riding would exclude it to so many working western horses that don't want to go in that direction
> If you want to understand and appreciate what CD is trying to do then you have to put all thoughts of Euro dressage out of your head and stop trying to compare them
> Its no different to the US Hunter classes that are totally different to the UK ones - no point trying to judge them against each other


Flashes are not used to fasten a horses mouth shut. Most dressage horses are relaxed happy and correct in their work. It is the correctness missing here.

Don't compare C "dressage" and dressage?! It's not oranges and apple's here. Its different apple varieties. They are spherical, grow on trees and classified as the same fruit. If it says "apple" and yoi bite into it and it's an orange - that's weird.
If CD doesn't want to be associated with dressage, maybe not having it in the name would be helpful?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Collection is riding on the edge of insanity.


Wait, are we talking about NASCAR? I am confused :lol::lol:

.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes there were several flaws, though I do not know a lot about western dressage. 
I enjoyed it and will say that the horse looked a heck of a lot more relaxed than majority of English ridden dressage horses.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_The Vaquero's will use the freestyle section of Cowboy dressage to showcase themselves but to have it solely for Vaquero riding would exclude it to so many working western horses that don't want to go in that direction_"

As I pointed out, my strawman would allow anyone to stop well before the spade bit stage of training. But emphasizing the Vaquero side would achieve two useful things:

1 - It provides a history and tradition instead of making one up, and

2 - It combines many common practices of dressage - or the Renaissance Style of Collected riding - while cheerfully rejecting it as the end goal.

Frankly, I think CD adds 'Dressage' to their name to gain prestige and acceptance of their goals and training. It adds "Cowboy" or "Western" to sell it to people with western saddles. But what it lacks is the integration of riding style and philosophy with the tack it is using. It is like driving by a strip mall and seeing "Ye Olde Englishe Tea Shoppe". It is Equine Kitsch, matching this explanation:

"...the essence of kitsch is imitation: kitsch mimics its immediate predecessor with no regard to ethics—it aims to copy the beautiful, not the good. According to Walter Benjamin, kitsch is, unlike art, a utilitarian object lacking all critical distance between object and observer; it "offers instantaneous emotional gratification without intellectual effort, without the requirement of distance, without sublimation"."

It may or may not prove to be popular, but it lacks a serious underpinning of thought. And meanwhile, there IS a serious approach to riding and training with very similar end goals...which is only lacking in marketing. :-x


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I had to watch it again, now that the discussion has become so picky.

Yeah, he's not perfect. and, it's all at canter, so in a way, it isn't really much like a dressage test, where you have to be good in several gaits.
But, I still really enjoyed watching it and still feel the horse was relaxed, working well, and available to the rider, like a working horse should be. and I still think the rider did a superb job, stick and all.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxo1LL8xZow&feature=youtube_gdata_player
this is a dressage test, medium level, in Working Equitation. The other parts of it are cattle work, and what is comparable to a western trail, one fast, one normal speed. 

I post this to point out that a working(cattle working that is), can, and should have a good basic training. Weird that even the Europeans use the word" dressage" for that part of the competition.....


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Dressage people use basic dressage training. 
Working equitation people use working equitation training.
Reiners use reining training, etc...

Each discipline has it's own nuances. A Reiner would not show up to a dressage barn to make their spin better. A jumper would not go to a cutting trainer to help move the horse up to 1.20m. These things might be helpful for cross training, but the main principles of each discipline remain separate.
There is much in working equitation that would not be desirable in dressage, and vice versa. It is not to say that one is better than the other, or that either is wrong. They just have different ideals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw89xA1X7Zk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
and just because it's so amazing... the same pair doing the speed test


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

uhm.... I've seen quite a few things in that dressage test that I would call dressage training.....

I guess what I'm trying to say is the FEI dressage isn't the owner of dressage, and the only one entitled to call it so.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Dressage people use basic dressage training.
> Working equitation people use working equitation training.
> Reiners use reining training, etc...
> 
> ...


I think quite a few jumpers and xc riders improve their horses abilities by working with some dressage schooling. Dressage feeds into many other activities.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Clava said:


> I think quite a few jumpers and xc riders improve their horses abilities by working with some dressage schooling. Dressage feeds into many other activities.


Dressage may be good cross training, just like how I cross train my horses in x country, trail riding, etc.. but the ideals of dressage are not the same ideals as a jumping horse. Or a reining horse. Or any other horse.
Passage to a 1.40m fence is not an effective way of jumping...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Passage to a 1.40m fence is not an effective way of jumping...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Possibly not, but some collection often is. 

The ideals of dressage are generally accuracy and submission...(Dressage being - The guiding of a horse through a series of complex maneuvers by slight movements of the rider's hands, legs, and weight)..so not dissimilar to the ideals of other activities really.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Personally, if it gets people into any form of dressage or even horses what does a name matter? If I wanted to get really picky, I don't think FEI or any level of dressage should be called "dressage" because it lacks the proper military maneuvers and airs above ground. But it's just a name, who cares? I'm not going into detail about that more because I did so in an earlier post. 
I'm guessing I'm still not seeing the problem with the name usage. Cowboy dressage is dressage for the western horse using the same basic principles that are used in european dressage but translating it over to fit the western outlook on rider positioning and what a working horse needs to do. Dressage was designed originally to be a method of training a working horse, everything in dressage was done so that the horse could do it's job to an effective level. Thus I'm not seeing the difference. 

But I'm a laid back person so I don't get the whole "prestige" or the sort that comes with naming a discipline you ride in. Too me it's all about having fun and enjoying what you do. If the founder wants to call it cowboy dressage let him, no one stopped the FEI or USDF from calling modern day dressage "dressage" instead of "Modern take on what we used to do in the 1500's" (just as an example lol). Cowboy, European, in the end they can both learn stuff from each other because they're both aiming towards the same basic shape. 

(Now I've got the song "Why can't we be friends" stuck in my head....... lol)


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

While I've only done a few years of european dressage and I could be greatly mistaken - its my understanding that piaffe and passage and other extreme forms of collection are reserved for the higher levels of dressage test. The lower levels are more focused on a horse moving correctly and listening the their aids smoothly, appropriately and without resistance at the basic gaits and mild transitions within a gait. 
I believe most sport, English and Western do encompass the primary skills learned in the lower levels of dressage. If for no other reason than to produce a horse lighter with their aids and less resisitant. Regaurdless of whether they take this training to hunters, jumpers, xcountry or working cows these skills are valuable and sought after in the horse community. 
European dressage brings these skills to one extreme in their high level competitions, while WD and CD have different extremes they aspire to be like. There is a great deal of overlap. Enough overlap to make CD and WD a subsection of European dressage. ImO


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Cambridge Dictionary 
Dressage - the training of a horse to perform special controlled movements as directed by the rider or the performance of these movements as a sport or competition.

Origin of the word DRESSAGE - Dresser 'to train' the art of riding a horse to develop obedience, flexibility and balance.

Nothing to say whether it should be any particular style.

We can all be critical!!!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Clava said:


> I think quite a few jumpers and xc riders improve their horses abilities by working with some dressage schooling.


Indeed. At least in my area. My dressage trainer has number of jumpers and eventers students. Moreover I know some very respected jumping trainers who suggest their students to take dressage lessons to improve.


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## Ninamebo (May 25, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> Cambridge Dictionary
> Dressage - the training of a horse to perform special controlled movements as directed by the rider or the performance of these movements as a sport or competition.
> 
> Origin of the word DRESSAGE - Dresser 'to train' the art of riding a horse to develop obedience, flexibility and balance.
> ...


I, too, agree that dressage can be more of an umbrella term. As for lower level dressage: it is basically the building blocks of every riding discipline, and the OPs video is an example of this. No matter what you end up doing with your horse, teaching proper carriage (of self and rider) and muscle usage as well as suppleness, balance, flexibility and fluidity is important. Sort of like how dancers have a ballet background. 

We can all critique and disagree on the details of the thing but the general term and focus (esp for lower levels) is the same.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm curious to know how the principles of working equitation is any different from basic dressage?
I didn't realize that dressage had to include passage - very few dressage riders even reach that level. Is it going to become compulsory? If not why suggest that show jumpers should passage to a fence?
I can remember one of our members - nrhareiner - saying that she took dressage lessons to improve her reining horses and I got the impression that she was competing at a high level
Yes the Vaqueros do have a history and tradition wrapped around them - but isn't the western horse and rider on a whole a huge part of US history? 
Things like Cowboy dressage and all the other western competitions will help keep it alive and thriving for future generations


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

It's kinda like football, which is obviously a game played by 11 men each side and they kick the ball to each other.

Not to be confused with rugby football, either union or league, or the NFL or CFL. Same name used in lots of different game everyone understands the differences, although they all come from the same root.

Dressage, in the original definition of training, does not belong to one discipline, but is a common root for so many. 

It is to me incredibly sad that so many think that dressage (with a small d) is elitist, and that there are divisions within English style dressage, between classical and other. As someone else said dressage should be at the root of all riding, because no one discipline stands alone in wanting collection, lateral movement, lead changes, or any other movement.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> ...As someone else said dressage should be at the root of all riding, because no one discipline stands alone in wanting collection, lateral movement, lead changes, or any other movement.


If you define dressage as "any riding", then what do we use to describe 'Renaissance Collected Riding'?

Y'all DO realize folks were riding horses for thousands of years without trying to achieve high collection, don't you? The Mongols, the Plains Indians...not a dressage student among them. Yet they were great riders.

You can use 'ballet' to mean 'any human who moves across the surface of the earth', but then what word do we use to describe ballet?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtOpwGGVAX0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

just wanted to throw that in for the people who don't know the purpose of the stick. Video is explaining it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

"dressage" means what the majority of people think it means. That is the way with ALL words. they do not stay where they started, but drift in meaning.



the word "dressage" has come to mean something like:a patterned test, that is pure in the sense that it's focussed on the movement of the horse, as divorced from where that movement might have originated or been employed by humans/horses. The patterns are designed to best highlight these moves, and demonstate, as judged by agreed upon standards, the degree of skill of the rider, in as much as he/she can get the best out of the horse, at each stage of its' development.

Western Dressage, and Cowboy Dressage, being pattern tests that are judged on fixed standards, utilize that term as it is commonly understood. 

quite honestly, I am not sure why Reining does not use the word "dressage", since they, too, use patterns in virtually the same way to test /develop their riders and horses.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hmmmm. Figure skating for horses...


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtOpwGGVAX0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 
> just wanted to throw that in for the people who don't know the purpose of the stick. Video is explaining it.



Thanks, that was fun. Now I know where the term "cow poke" comes from too. ha ha Very nice!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

isn't that from bullfighting? they train the horses so the rider can spear the bull? or is that the kind where the rider "hazes" the bull but does not hurt it?


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> Indeed. At least in my area. My dressage trainer has number of jumpers and eventers students. Moreover I know some very respected jumping trainers who suggest their students to take dressage lessons to improve.


And there are many dressage coaches who push their horses and students to do jumping lessons, xc, trail riding, etc...

Just because one cross trains in another sport, does not make that sport then the end all be all of all riding ever.

Abd basic dressage exists as the foundation for dressage training. Reiners, working eq, etc.. will all have different basics. I do not want my dressage horse to neck rein, or spin, or canter fast and low to the ground, or to have a looped rein. No more than a Reiner wants a working canter reaching into a strong connection with the bit and for the horse to do a half turn on the haunches in the collected walk.

Each discipline has different ideals and the ideals of dressage are not for all disciplines.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

No, it's the Spanish cowboy's main too( the Italian "buttero" carries a similar stick, not quite as long tho). They" direct" the cattle with it, and bulls are being tested out on the range for their aggressiveness by being poked and thrown, and the ones who get up and attack are the best for the arena.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

bsms said:


> If you define dressage as "any riding", then what do we use to describe 'Renaissance Collected Riding'?
> 
> Y'all DO realize folks were riding horses for thousands of years without trying to achieve high collection, don't you? The Mongols, the Plains Indians...not a dressage student among them. Yet they were great riders.
> 
> You can use 'ballet' to mean 'any human who moves across the surface of the earth', but then what word do we use to describe ballet?


I love this comment too! While I took Dressage lessons and while I do believe most modern riding styles use many of the aspects of dressage training. And I do believe most modern riding competitors use basic dressage lessons and skills to enhance their own and their horses training, even for a different style of competing. 
But I personally don't pay much attention to most things Dressage riders do. I ride so infrequently and it's mostly just getting on and riding, either to get somewhere or to just have fun for a while. I expect my horse to ride in the direction I point them, at the gait I choose. Even that is questionable sometimes xD Sometimes if they want to go we just go! Most Dressage riders would be appalled watching me ride down the trails xD But we are affective, we get where we're going, my horses are wonderful and eager to do as I ask - there is no battle. I couldn't ask for more out of them.

But that's also why I don't compete 
I guess the point is, Dressage is exceptionally useful for all modern horses and riders - especially competitive riders, but you're right it isn't the end all be all of riding!

Being a positive reinforcement trainers I have several friends who's horses wouldn't have a clue what a dressage rider is asking - but have a whole different language with their rider. They're as beautiful partners and well trained horses as I could ever imagine, but they'd probably not do so well in a dressage test! 

This person too - I believe she taught her horse traditional cues as well as cues that are her own language, this is their tackless trail ride  I'd call them a great pair, regardless of their dressage training!






Sorry I've gone off on a tangent again!


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

PunksTank said:


> I love this comment too! While I took Dressage lessons and while I do believe most modern riding styles use many of the aspects of dressage training. And I do believe most modern riding competitors use basic dressage lessons and skills to enhance their own and their horses training, even for a different style of competing.
> But I personally don't pay much attention to most things Dressage riders do. I ride so infrequently and it's mostly just getting on and riding, either to get somewhere or to just have fun for a while. I expect my horse to ride in the direction I point them, at the gait I choose. Even that is questionable sometimes xD Sometimes if they want to go we just go! Most Dressage riders would be appalled watching me ride down the trails xD But we are affective, we get where we're going, my horses are wonderful and eager to do as I ask - there is no battle. I couldn't ask for more out of them.
> 
> But that's also why I don't compete
> ...


But, a great assessment  on my phone so I can't like this post, but I like it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I just reread my last post and would like to clarify something xD 
I also have many Positive Reinforcement trainers who DO compete in English and Western Dressage, as well as hunter/jumpers and other competitions - their horses are all clicker trained but compete just as well. I was just mentioning how some people teach a horse an entirely different language, nothing to do with Dressage. I don't want it to sound like all clicker trained horses can't make it in competitions  Just look at Judgement the jumper


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

^PunksTank if I could double like that post I would. I pleasure ride as well and for ALL of my horses I want the same basic things that dressage wants: suppleness, willingness and the go get it attitude or eagerness to work. I might not ask for a headset or collection some.... well most of the time but I'm able to move them and have a partnership with them. I work towards these goals and because of it I develop my own language with every individual horse (seriously, I've had some that were cued completely different then others). That to me is what dressage is be it western or english, old style or new.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If you take the original meaning of the word "Dresser" then every time we get on a horse to ride it to improve it, then we are all doing "dressage."

Heck, I am old enough to remember that dressage was something that _had _to be done prior to going cross country in a horse trials!

There were always a few riders who did the 'real ' thing but they were few and far between and, popularity for pure dressage only became really popular amongst the general riding population, some thirty + years ago. Now, at least in the UK, many more people are taking it up as their sport. Not to say that these people will attain high levels because they will not and they know it, but it doesn't matter, they are enjoying it and it gives them a goal.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If you take the meaning of the original French word "Dresser" then every time we get on a horse to teach it, we are doing dressage, regardless of what it is being trained for. 
Thirty plus years ago dressage was something that you had to do before going cross country in a Horse Trials! Very few actually trained for the pure art. 
Gradually and thankfully, it is now an ever popular growing side of equestrian sport. More and more people are taking it up. Not to say that they will attain even medium levels, most will not. That doesn't matter, they are enjoying it and trying to improve, that is what counts.

I have, on many occasions, seen the Spanish Riding School perform their routines. Something I would say is well worth going to see if given the chance. (Not the groups who profess to be the same but the real McCoy) 
The level of training is wonderful to watch. The high school movements such as the Capriole, Courbette, Piaffe and Levade were movements taught to use in battle. The only one of these movements used in modern dressage is the piaffe. 

Watching the Lipizzaners perform and you can see the power they have but they do not have the big movement that the warm bloods do which is what is wanted nowadays.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_we are doing dressage, regardless of what it is being trained for._"

So when I want to describe the sort of riding that YouTube brings up if I type "dressage" in, what new word do I use? If I potty dressage my grandkids, what word to I use to describe a formalized performance of a highly collected horse in an arena after being trained IAW procedures and goals developed in Europe in the 1600s?

If Clinton Anderson teaches dressage, then what is the stuff they do in the Olympics called?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Well I guess if it's in the Olympics you would call it Olympic dressage?


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

98 posts....wow....
I don't get it, really. why is it such a problem here in the US to add the word dressage to something? Take Germany, for example...THE dressage country(I hope we all agree on this lol). Reining is regularly called Western dressage. Every english show, even the smallest local one, has dressage, jumping,xcountry competitions. Riding lessons are classified as dressage lessons, or jumping lessons. All without a problem. Only here we have certain people who think they have to be holier that the pope and fight vehemently for the elite status of dressage. 
For crying out loud, nobody takes anything away from your upper level dressage just by calling something else dotdotdot dressage. Geeeeezzzz


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

So after years of calling it dressage, per the FEI, we now need to change its name to "Olympic Dressage". This will allow us to call Clinton Anderson's training videos "Clinton Anderson's Dressage videos".

I guess I'm missing how that is an improvement over calling dressage dressage, and training training.

Why do people WANT to call all training "dressage"? What does that add - other than allowing fans of a European Renaissance style of riding to claim that they alone hold the keys of good riding? I guess it justifies looking down on the Plains Indians, cowboys, ignorant trail riders and people who don't want to ride around with their horse's head held in the vertical, which seems to be how fans of "Dressage for Everyone" end up riding their horses.

Real dressage - dressage done well, IAW the principles taught by those old Europeans - is HARD. Done well, it is beautiful. Done marginally, by inexperienced riders trying to collect their horses head - which is best done by shooting the horse and having a taxidermist mount it on a display - it is atrocious. It is certainly NOT an approach for the average rider who rides a few hours a week at best.

It is far easier to ruin a horse's mouth and to put him heavy on the forehand or to destroy his forward movement than it is to teach good contact and collection. If you don't ride all the time, or you didn't grow up around horses, it is safer for the horse to allow him a natural balance and free head carriage on loose reins. The "Dressage for Dummies" movement is a contradiction in terms, since good dressage cannot be done by dummies, and cannot be done well by part-time riders. It is a style developed by professionals who trained royalty's horses. Far from being the foundation of all good riding, it is BAD riding for inexperienced riders.

I can teach a total newbie to ride a western saddle and neck rein and not harm the horse in a couple of rides. He may bounce too much or even fall off at times, but he won't do much harm to the horse. He can learn, with minimal bad effects on the horse, to move with the horse and control the horse.

Dressage, or "Olympic Dressage" if that must be its new name, is NOT for everyone. But of course, since we now potty dressage our kids, 'dressage' can be for everyone, since it now encompasses looking at a horse in a pasture.

"_I don't get it, really. why is it such a problem here in the US to add the word dressage to something?_"

Don't worry. I'm going to eat Dressage Pie this Thanksgiving. It used to be called Pumpkin Pie, but I've decided Dressage can now describe pumpkins...


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## Weezilla (Aug 3, 2012)

I call it Competitive Dressage. There are many out there who don't compete and who train by the established principles of the Training Pyramid. Generalizing here, but many non-competitive dressage trainers and riders care less about the height of the passage and the extreme extended trot and more about the harmony of horse and rider and the rideability of the horse. I'm not saying I'm not floored by a Damon Hill extension or a Valegro piaffe and passage - I am overwhelmed with admiration. But I am also mesmerized by what a rider interested solely in advancing the training of the horse does. 

IMHO it is 2 different schools of training based on the same principles, with Competitive Dressage always looking to push the parameters - more collection, more extension, piaffe more in place, bigger ones, half passes with more suspension. Why? Because its COMPETITIVE Dressage. Horses born with their eyes on stalks and a firecracker under their tails and huge movement are what competitive trainers look for, because these horses may have what it takes to be a dressage *star* and not just a good grand Prix dressage horse.


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## Weezilla (Aug 3, 2012)

And that's why I like the fact that the word "dressage" is now being used by people who ride in western saddles, along with the tests offered by CD and WD. Certainly the basic principles of good riding are used by all disciplines, but now "dressage" can come out of the closet in the Western rider's tackroom ;-) And while I can see why it sounds snobby, but I say with all sincerity that a horse on the bit and moving through his back IS Nirvana, and that is why I'm happy that many seem to be embracing the new discipline. Its good for all horses and all riders, be they walk-trot-canterers or the piaffe-passagers.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

BSMS, considering your usual thoughts on dressage I can only think that you are being deliberately provocative on this thread and really you don't give a darn what any discipline is actually called.

Your thoughts on dressage pie are just to ridiculous to be even considered.

Dressage is training, Competitive Dressage is the best description of that which is done for sport, rather than just improving the horse and rider partnership.

Following some of the arguments on this thread the whole western discipline should not use the word saddle as it is different from the English saddle.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I didn't potty dressage my kids, so dressage does not mean any training. The 'training' it referred to was the training done by professionals so royalty could ride a prancing horse and impress their subjects. That goal required doing things that are not helpful to many other approaches to riding. Most long distance runners do not train in ballet to improve their running, because the goal of ballet differs. The 'Dressage for Everyone' movement wants to impose their approach to riding on everyone, claiming it is the base and foundation of ALL good riding.

But it is no more the base of all riding than ballet is the base of all human movement...

As for saddle, when someone claims the English dressage saddle is the saddle all other saddles are founded on, and the saddle all others ought to learn to ride with, THEN I'll debate the meaning and history of saddles.


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## Roux (Aug 23, 2013)

Calling this discipline Western Dressage takes nothing away from Dressage. (As some are suggesting). 

I thought the vid the OP displayed was very impressive, I would love to be able to ride that well some day, aspiring to be a good horse person regardless of what my discipline is named.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The western saddle is a lot closer in style to the saddles the riders in the Renaissance period (the ones who started the ball rolling on the whole Dressage thing) used
The basics of good riding that are shared by both Western and Europeans have nothing to do with the tack you use


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

bsms said:


> I didn't potty dressage my kids, so dressage does not mean any training.


Dressur (dressage) is restricted, by most, to mean training of horse to accept the rider.



> The 'training' it referred to was the training done by professionals so royalty could ride a prancing horse and impress their subjects. That goal required doing things that are not helpful to many other approaches to riding.


By your definition, I guess there IS no modern dressage then, since it is not still relegated to royals prancing around. It is still called the dressage phase in eventing, even though there are no "upper" level movements employed, nor even aspired to.



> Most long distance runners do not train in ballet to improve their running, because the goal of ballet differs.


But, some football players are using it ti improve their flexibility and suppleness (the same reason people use dressage for their "nondressage" horses). I'm sure there MAY be some runners who use it, too. 












> The 'Dressage for Everyone' movement wants to impose their approach to riding on everyone, claiming it is the base and foundation of ALL good riding.


Dressage, as it is originally intended, is when a person gets on a horse and trains it to respond to the rider. So, yes, the trail rider can be said to use "dressage" to improve their horse for the trail.

The problem seems to stem from the desire to maintain the term dressage to mean only a VERY narrow niche in the competitive riding community. I think this is incorrect, that's all.



> But it is no more the base of all riding than ballet is the base of all human movement...


But, ballet IS based on human movement. It takes simple movements and expands them and takes them to a different level. Kinda like what competitive dressage does, regardless of what saddle you use.



> As for saddle, when someone claims the English dressage saddle is the saddle all other saddles are founded on, and the saddle all others ought to learn to ride with, THEN I'll debate the meaning and history of saddles.


All saddles we use today are an evolution. Some are older than others. The traditional western saddle we see today is a relative newcomer. But, that doesn't make it any less relevant. Dressage saddle that we see today are radically different than dressage saddle of 30 years ago

One of the earliest known saddles from Pazyryk burial, Altai 5th c.bce










I sure wouldn't want to use this saddle for dressage OR trail riding.

I guess what this thread boils down to is that some wish to reserve a word to have a very restricted definition. Others want to view this same term as it was originally used and intended. No big deal.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

The horse is not collected but he has his backend engaged (except for at a few points). People forget that self carriage is a spectrum… This horse is somewhere in the middle.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

bsms said:


> As for saddle, when someone claims the English dressage saddle is the saddle all other saddles are founded on, and the saddle all others ought to learn to ride with, THEN I'll debate the meaning and history of saddles.


What are you smoking today, and who claimed that????

It is a FACT that English riding had saddles before the western saddle of today, just as it is a fact that many other civilisations had their own form of saddles before the English caught up, bit we are happy to call them all saddles. All have some sort of common factor, in that the rider sits in them, but the purpose is different, some provide comfort, some security, some are needed to work and rope cows, so all have evolved differently.

If you can't grasp that for the equine world can have a common root in 'dressage' without making stupid jokes about 'potty dressage' then my respect for your intellect has taken a huge nosedive, that is totally asinine.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

This is not aimed at any one person, but several who are pushing the limits....

Please review our Policy and let's keep things civil http://www.horseforum.com/horse-forum-rules-announcements/conscientious-etiquette-policy-6069/

.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> ...If you can't grasp that for the equine world can have a common root in 'dressage' without making stupid jokes about 'potty dressage' then my respect for your intellect has taken a huge nosedive, that is totally asinine.


Folks seem to have problems understanding that other folks DID ride horses prior to 1600, and that the Chinese, Mongols and American Indians felt free to ride horses, without consulting the so-called "common root" of European Renaissance Elite Riding.

Indeed, most folks during the 1600s & 1700s, unless they were nobility, rode without using the principles of European Renaissance Elite Riding (ERER), because most horses throughout history have been ridden to GO somewhere, and you cannot GO somewhere efficiently using a style of riding that prizes using as much energy as possible to go the least distance possible.

Given that very few riders in human history have used, or desired to use, the principles of European Renaissance Elite Riding, in what meaningful sense is ERER the "common root" of riding?

As for referring to 'potty dressage', I was merely following the majority opinion on this thread that dressage is interchangeable with training, and should supersede that word as a word meaning training. If it seems absurd...well, think of it as "illustrating absurdity by being absurd". I see no reason to use 'dressage' to mean 'training'. I've argued that we already HAVE a word in English that means training, and it is "training". But the fans of "Dressage is the root of all riding & everyone who rides is riding dressage" fans tell me dressage = training...so I am merely following the lead of the majority of posters on this thread.

There is no common root of riding. Riding has been done in different ways and for different purposes for thousands of years. When your objective is to cover ground, ERER is not how you ride...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The Chinese, Mongolians and American Indians had no influence on European riding
The first riders in America were Europeans - the Spanish who brought their new Renaissance style of riding with them that and the British, French, Dutch, Germans, Italians etc who also brought their European riding style with them
I would imagine that the American Indian was mostly influenced by what they saw as their way of riding was not that different
Slight differences in tack and seat position evolved to suit the needs of the rider but the basic principles of handling the horse have not


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_The Chinese, Mongolians and American Indians had no influence on European riding_"

Yet they rode well, without dressage training, if you will pardon the redundancy.

"_I would imagine that the American Indian was mostly influenced by what they saw as their way of riding was not that different_"

I would imagine they learned riding the way my son-in-law did: Get on, fall off, keep getting on until you stopped falling off. But what they did not learn or attempt was to put a horse on the bit and get the horse to shift its weight to the rear so it could prance around impressing people - which was the stated goal of European Renaissance Elite Riding (although I miss the days when I could write 'dressage' instead of ERER). See the Duke of Newcastle's forward to "A General System of Horsemanship" from 1657.

Cowboys learned the same way: keep trying until you keep the horse between you and the ground. They ended up riding like this, which is not with collection:










Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

The principles pushed by the ERER approach are great for a display, and fine for sport. They just don't work well for getting from point A to point B without exhausting the horse - which is why they were not used by the vast majority of riders throughout history and the world.

So again: *In what meaningful sense is ERER the foundation of all good riding, when the large majority of riders thru history and throughout the world have not followed ERER?

*If anyone is serious about how dressage started and what its goals were, I suggest reading this book, available used for 1 penny plus postage:

The Development of Modern Riding: Vladimir S. Littauer: 9780876058978: Amazon.com: Books


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

bsms said:


> Indeed, most folks during the 1600s & 1700s, unless they were nobility, rode without using the principles of European Renaissance Elite Riding (ERER), because most horses throughout history have been ridden to GO somewhere, and you cannot GO somewhere efficiently using a style of riding that prizes using as much energy as possible to go the least distance possible.


Having collection is about having the horse being able to go at any speed in any direction at any moment, it is like having the engine turned on and the power available to go rather than having to push the truck yourself. It is a working and useful way of a horse going rather than just inefficient as you imply. This is why it was used in schooling horses as weapons and suitable for war, it is powerful and controlled and above all useful.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

How many times have you watched a video on youtube--some novice rider popping her backyard pony over "fences" made out of lawn chairs and called it "Hunter"? I've certainly seen quite a few of them. Yikes.

That said, it doesn't take away anything from the discipline. 

Who really cares if they call it WD or CD? It's just semantics... I wish I had the time to worry about such things.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"It is a working and useful way of a horse going rather than just inefficient as you imply."

It is only useful if you may need a sharp turn. But most horses thru history have been used to go from A to B, not to ride around in a small area. Now was it used often by war horses, since the cavalry specialized in going 40 miles in a day - which rewards a long, flat stride.

Riding a collected horse started as a pastime to nobles, "_that which makes them appear most graceful when they show themselves to their subjects, or at the head of an army, to animate it_" - the same purpose discussed by Xenophon:
"_If, however, the wish is to secure a horse adapted to parade and state_
_ processions, a high stepper and a showy animal, these are qualities_
_ not to be found combined in every horse, but to begin with, the animal_
_ must have high spirit and a stalwart body. Not that, as some think, a_
_ horse with flexible legs will necessarily be able to rear his body._
_ What we want is a horse with supple loins, and not supple only but_
_ short and strong (I do not mean the loins towards the tail, but by the_
_ belly the region between the ribs and thighs). That is the horse who_
_ will be able to plant his hind-legs well under the forearm. If while_
_ he is so planting his hind-quarters, he is pulled up with the bit, he_
_ lowers his hind-legs on his hocks and raises the forepart of his_
_ body, so that any one in front of him will see the whole length of his_
_ belly to the sheath. At the moment the horse does this, the rider_
_ should give him the rein, so that he may display the noblest feats_
_ which a horse can perform of his own free will, to the satisfaction of_
_ the spectators_."​As a sport, it is fine. As a means of riding from Tucson to Phoenix, it is not so fine. It is darn inefficient for the latter, which is how most horses were used - to GO somewhere.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Dressage (and collection) has it's origins in cavalry movements and training a horse for battle (possibly as a powerful fighting machine) not just for high stepping parades, but I can imagine that would then be distilled down to the other nobleman but certainly not where it started.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Since the American Indians used their ponies in battle and for hunting - both of which involve having to have a mount that could turn off leg aids while the rider carried a bow or a spear I would imagine they used exactly the same cues to do that that the first horses trained in the way that todays dressage horses evolved from and they certainly sat in an upright shoulder, hip, heel position
Its my understanding that the Indians learnt their skills from the Spanish Settlers so no surprise that they would use the same principles. 
The first tribes to use the horse spread from New Mexico into Texas and so on across the rest of the country
If you've just spent goodness knows how long rounding a horse up off vast acres of open plains you're hardly going to put some idiot on it who's going to learn to stick on the hard way and have it run off again
Collection is very useful as a means of getting the best out of a horse in a particular situation - but that doesn't mean you have to ride in a collected frame all the time - no clue where that misconception comes from


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Dressage (and collection) has it's origins in cavalry movements and training a horse for battle (possibly as a powerful fighting machine)_"

Myth. Please READ what the 'classic masters' wrote! You can buy the book for under $5 and read many quotes for yourself. The origin of what was called dressage (but I'll now call ERER) had nothing to do with battle.

"_they certainly sat in an upright shoulder, hip, heel position_"

No, the paintings and photos I've seen indicate they rode with the same forward leg position used by the old cowboys. They also made NO attempt to put a horse on the bit, and made no attempt to 'collect' the horse. Notice the collection? Neither do I:










It was taken in 1905 by Edward S. Curtis.

Navajos Riding Horses










"_I would imagine they used exactly the same cues to do that_" 

They probably made up their own cues. They certainly did not engage in any of the training practices taught by the 'European Masters'.

"_If you've just spent goodness knows how long rounding a horse up off vast acres of open plains you're hardly going to put some idiot on it who's going to learn to stick on the hard way and have it run off again_"

Just how do you THINK they learned to ride? Lunge line lessons?

"_that doesn't mean you have to ride in a collected frame all the time - no clue where that misconception comes from_"

The whole purpose of ERER was to teach collected gaits. That is what the sport of dressage values now. But the collection of ERER or dressage involves the horse providing thrust from its hind legs that is vectored up as well as forward, creating the feeling the horse is rounding its back (which doesn't actually happen). The collection of a quick turn is different, retaining the horizontal thrust but only shifting enough weight to lighten the load on the front legs. And yes, you can get a darn swift turn from a horse that doesn't round its back. Trooper & Mia have both proven that to me many times.

But brief, momentary collection to make a sharp turn was NOT the goal of ERER or of the sport of dressage. Their goal was a prancing horse - "_that which makes them appear most graceful when they show themselves to their subjects, or at the head of an army, to animate it_". There is NOTHING WRONG with that goal, but it is hardly required for a horse to be ridden fast or to turn quickly. Polo is ridden in a forward seat, not a dressage seat.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

That was a lot to reading to catch up on!

I didn't mean to start a debate on dressage; I was, myself, focusing on the concept of "collection". To my mind, the horse was nicely collected, and yet very free. I _really_ like _free. _The stretched, "happy" neck.

But I think I confuse being "on the aids" with collection. I was wondering what others thought.

Usually collection means shorter, higher steps, with the rounded croup; which includes the shortened, higher neck. Certainly it has nothing to do with being on the brink of insanity, or explosiveness, but a willingness to answer the lightest aid. I'm not sure where "expressiveness" even fits in. Choreography?

And then, I decided that collection is not a final "thing" but is something developed; that you can have different degrees of collection even to the extreme where it becomes harmful to the horse.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Dressage may indeed have earlier origins than the cavalry that is interesting, but certainly in the UK, the cavalry has influenced the way we ride here and the adopted style of riding (English). For many people in the UK dressage is indeed the training and schooling of a horse and the aim is to have a degree of collection to improve the enjoyment of riding and the safety and control of horses. It is how we hack and hunt, horses on the bit (mostly but not always), in control but sometimes going fast.

I wonder why there is such a need to dismiss riding with collection as on a beautifully trained horse, it is a joy and I think it is a pity for people to attack it so hard and possibly put others off from trying it. I ride "on the bit" (but not always), usually not with any true collection, but I have occasionally on certain horses, and the controllability, power and manoeuvrability is fantastic.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

bsms said:


> I didn't potty dressage my kids, so dressage does not mean any training. The 'training' it referred to was the training done by professionals so royalty could ride a prancing horse and impress their subjects. That goal required doing things that are not helpful to many other approaches to riding. Most long distance runners do not train in ballet to improve their running, because the goal of ballet differs. The 'Dressage for Everyone' movement wants to impose their approach to riding on everyone, claiming it is the base and foundation of ALL good riding.
> 
> But it is no more the base of all riding than ballet is the base of all human movement...
> 
> As for saddle, when someone claims the English dressage saddle is the saddle all other saddles are founded on, and the saddle all others ought to learn to ride with, THEN I'll debate the meaning and history of saddles.



You are incorrect in what you are stating _if_ you take the meaning of the word 'dressage' at its original source from the French 'dresser' it means to train a horse to be obedient, supple and to perform asked movements so, regardless of how your horse was trained as long as it is doing the above it is doing 'dresser'

You are also incorrect on royalty and the highbrows riding prancing horses to impress the lowly serfs. The movements were for close battle. Referring to the high school movements. 

As for saddles, I have ridden many miles in all sorts, I will say that a well fitting (to me) western saddle does place me in a deep seated position just as a dressage saddle does. 

Obviously there are many types of riding, saddles were changed to suit the job it was needed for and as equestrian sports became more popular, so these saddles changed from the flat type used in the hunting field, to that of the modern saddle for English riders.
The military saddle was something different and not that suitable for hunting in but, a better fit for most horses as it had a better weight bearing surface. 

I also agree that, as more people are riding without a decent understanding of the movement and action of the horse, that the main thing they are looking for is a 'head set' and force a horse to go unnaturally. I also agree that teaching someone to rode so they have little or no rein contact to start is a good thing.

Of course riding great distances a rider needed to be comfortable and deep seated. The natural way to do this is to sit leaning back and allow the feet to go forward. As kids, riding the ponies to and from the furthest fields, we often had trotting races, we would all lean right back, shove our feet forward and stay on by balancing on our butts. Not elegant to look at but we all,had deep secure seats and sure could do a good sitting trot!

The reason that 'western riding' changed from English was surely because of the distances and hours spent in the saddle. Cattle in Europe were kept in small acreages they were regularly in contact with people, it was, from early ages, possible to drive them from A to B on foot. Not possible in either US or Australia. Stirrups changed to fenders because there was less chance of legs being pinched. It might have been normal for the US cavalry to travel 40 miles a day but as most European battles consisted of cavalry and infantry, those distances were not possible. 

You are going from the sublime to the ridiculous with your comparisons and I will add that majority of polo riders competing at a higher level are terrible riders and only get on a horse to play their game. I am not saying polo is not skilled but if you take the middle goal players and put them on a horse for a normal trail ride, you would be astounded at how poorly they really ride. The top high goal players are usually good riders.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Anther thing I should have added. The person that trains for ballet learns balance and posture in the early stages even of they do not continue it for very long. 
The horse that has the basic _correct_ start in its training, as the _classically_ trained 'dressage' horses do, would be better for it regardless of how they are going to be ridden later in life. 

I have yet to sit on a horse that, having been ridden by a good classic rider, that has not gone better for the experience.


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## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)

jaydee said:


> The Chinese, Mongolians and American Indians had no influence on European riding


With all due respect, you are wrong about the Chinese and Mongolians not influencing Europe. Genghis Khan and mongol horseman spread across Asia and parts of Europe in the 1200s. They introduced a little innovation called "stirrups" (the Chinese invented them BTW around 1000 years before that) which allowed his cavalry to dominate and subjugate much of the then known world. It is generally accepted that with the introduction of stirrups the modern horseman was born.

(read that in a Nat Geo announcer's voice :wink: )

Lots on the web about it. Here's one 
Stirrup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> You are going from the sublime to the ridiculous with your comparisons and I will add that majority of polo riders competing at a higher level are terrible riders and only get on a horse to play their game. I am not saying polo is not skilled but if you take the middle goal players and put them on a horse for a normal trail ride, you would be astounded at how poorly they really ride. The top high goal players are usually good riders.


Love this post, you can construct an argument far more eloquently than I, so I just want to shout yes yes yes 

This last para I agree with 100%


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

This is an interesting question because I believe it is important to this debate. What does collection mean to y'all....and what is the importance of collection? Ok, that is two questions. I am reading and thinking there is a divide on what collection is, which is causing this debate to escalate to lots of quotes and crapola.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_i__t means to train a horse to be obedient, supple and to perform asked movements so...You are also incorrect on royalty and the highbrows riding prancing horses to impress the lowly serfs. The movements were for close battle. Referring to the high school movements._"

Factually incorrect. The style of riding previously referred to as 'dressage' has its origins in the Renaissance as a style good for riding with others in a confined area, and a way of riding for parades and to look impressive on a horse - as both the Duke of Newcastle wrote. The 'High School' movements were meant to be impressive. I've seen no record of them being used in battle, nor has anyone I've seen offered a serious manner in which they could be used without exposing both horse and rider to attack.

Since that was the only sort of advanced schooling taught horses, that became 'schooling'. I guess they figured folks could get on and ride from point A to point B without significant schooling. As documented by Littauer, when armies wanted to bring in masses to the cavalry, they dropped ERER quickly...or suffered the consequences. In the US Cavalry, it was never adopted as useful outside the arena.

In any case, in English, dressage became a word meaning a particular style of riding - one geared to encourage significant and sustained collection.

"_The reason that 'western riding' changed from English was surely because of the distances and hours spent in the saddle._"

Agreed. It also tended to assume there would be more than one horse, so one let the horse work harder since he was expendable and since he would often go unridden the following day of a cattle drive. And most cattle drives involved more walking than running, since you did not want to run the weight off of them. In California, with stable ranches and horses that were available for training over years, the Vaquero style dominated - because the distances were smaller, the work was different, and the horses and riders were not there seasonally.

"_You are going from the sublime to the ridiculous with your comparisons and I will add that majority of polo riders competing at a higher level are terrible riders and only get on a horse to play their game. I am not saying polo is not skilled but if you take the middle goal players and put them on a horse for a normal trail ride, you would be astounded at how poorly they really ride._"

In part, it depends on how you define 'good riding'. To the extent it involves keeping the horse between you and the ground, I'd assume the average polo player is pretty decent. To the extent it involves gentleness to the horse...well, that might differ. When horses are used for sport, they encounter people who use them to achieve a goal. In most sports, people tend to act like jerks in order to win.

"_The person that trains for ballet learns balance and posture in the early stages even of they do not continue it for very long._"

As a life long jogger, I have not suffered for not learning to balance on my toes. It is a very different skill set. It might be good for cross training, just as lifting weights is good cross training for a jogger, but the extra upper body strength does not help a jogger jog.

ANY training in movement would help a person's balance, and any training by a decent trainer will help a horse move balanced under a person, but not all horse trainers teach sustained collection because not all horses need it for what they do. It is a different motion that involves a different use of muscles in the back and hind end. What a horse is doing during its strides is far more complex than what we assume by watching it. The motions and strengthening needed for sustained collection is NOT needed for efficient horizontal movement. As cross training, it is fine. But it is neither required nor the base that defines 'good riding'.

It puzzles me why anyone would dispute that ERER is A way of riding, rather than THE way of riding that defines all other style.

Should everyone ride with their toes forward? Why or why not. Should everyone ride with a very vertical position, maintaining shoulder, hip & heel in a vertical line, or not? Why not?

Well, because those things are not helpful for some types of riding. I like a forward seat, which wants contact between the lower leg and the horse. But in a western saddle, I lose that contact because of the saddle design. I like my new, used western saddle, but it is a very different feel, for me and for my horse. She is a bit puzzled by it, but seems to be adapting to the different weight distribution. Neither forward seat nor western seat is right or wrong, just different seats for different tack and different goals. How that can be controversial is beyond my imagination.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> ...I am reading and thinking there is a divide on what collection is, which is causing this debate to escalate to lots of quotes and crapola.


Collection is a continuum, both in time and degree. A fairly untrained horse can be highly collected, briefly. Or mildly collected, for a longer time. The dressage training scale was developed because it is hard for a horse to be highly collected for a long time. 

You can teach a horse 'collection' in a ride, or it can take years. It depends on the degree of collection, and how long you want it sustained. The FEI definitions are based on what used to be dressage. I believe Littauer used 'gathering' to describe the degree and length of collection useful to a jumper.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

What is the/your definition of a forward seat? And does forward equate to more contact with the lower leg? Is that what you meant?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

My definition of a forward seat is when you move your position forward to match the horse's center of gravity, rather than ask him to collect and move his center of gravity under you. To my way of thinking, the following extracts give a pretty good idea of how to take up a forward seat:



















All from an excellent book, "Riding and Schooling Horses" by Harry Chamberlin. ( Riding And Schooling Horses: Harry D. Chamberlin, John Cudahy, Edwin M. Sumner: 9781163173299: Amazon.com: Books)

This old video gives a good idea of what his training background was and how the style was applied:

Cavalry Horseback Riding Training: "Modern Centaurs" circa 1920 Educational Films Corporation - YouTube
"_Chamberlin was assigned to Fort Riley's Horsemanship Department and went on to compete at the 1920 Olympic Games with his mount *****. He was then sent to Europe to train for two years, the first year at the French Cavalry School in Saumur, and the second at the Italian Cavalry School in Tor di Quinto. While in Italy, he was introduced to the forward seat, which he brought back to the United States and which now dominates the hunter and jumper scene._"​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Chamberlin


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

What is highly collected and mildly collected? In your terms. What is the horses body doing when collected?

I think you can get a horse to start thinking about collection in a ride for a stride or two.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

So were the Air above Ground not taught as fighting measures? Even if a theory in one book has been put that it exposed the under belly I doubt this, a rearing horse or an enormous high kicking out horse is a terrific weapon. I think the true development and control of horses would have come from real need in the battle field not just for show (where perhaps it started but unlikely to have been developed as we know it now).


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Didn't we just have this debate very recently? 

In debates about collection, dressage, and a whole lot of other things I tend to give more kudos to those who have actually ridden in a variety of disciplines, and preferably in both English and Western styles. I find people who have actually 'felt' something actually understand the true meaning of something.

I have years of experience, only wish that that I had proper instruction at the start of my riding life, but can't change that now! The collection I started to feel in my dressage is different to the collection that I feel when riding a Reiner, and I've never heard the word collection used at that barn, but the horses are collected, in my understanding of the word.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I loved the old video but, what you must remember is that back then both horses and men were expendable. 
The Saumur is second in high school work with horses, only to the Spanish Riding School.

I do agree that riding _in balance_ with a horse is very important bit do disagree that remaining in the forward position at all times, is _not _doing that. A horse going down a steep bank has its weight on the hind legs which are tucked right under him so the rider needs to lighten the front end and sit back. 

Caprilli was the person who revolutionised the forward seat whilst jumping, by going forward as the horse started to jump allowed the hind end to be free of the riders weight, as the horse descended so the rider came back into the saddle relieving the front legs from taking more weight and also allowing the rider to be in a safe position should the horse do anything untoward like peck. 

I have ridden in the forward seat when both fox hunting and working racehorses. I have also had the privilege of riding some top dressage horses where it takes core strength and balance to get the required movements. I have never ridden a fully trained reining horse, well, I have but, hadn't a clue and had no one to help me at the time. 

I can assure you that adopting the backward seat over rough terrain and fences, trusting my horse to balance itself if I chuck the reins at it by slipping them through my fingers till I hit the buckle, has saved me and my mount from many a fall.

Riding a horse that is truthfully 'on the bit' working with its hocks under it, knowing the slightest change in balance or aids is as exhilarating as riding a fit racehorse on the gallops, knowing that of you change your position that balance and control would be lost, and the adrenalin of both performing a dressage movement well and allowing that racehorse to really open out is much the same.

One other thing, I doubt very much if there are many people who would not need a laundry change if they were taken on such a ride as in the video - some of which was plain dangerous.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> I find people who have actually 'felt' something actually understand the true meaning of something.


Totally agree.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have been asked many times what it feels like to have a horse on th bit and collected. As with anything that is a feeling, it is hard to explain and the nearest I have ever got to it is to say it is like holding a car on the throttle and clutch on the side of a hill. (Obviously a stick shift vehicle) to much throttle and not enough clutch and you will go forward, not enough throttle and to little clutch and it would run back. 
It is a balance regardless of what discipline you are riding.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Golden Horse, I also took my first lesson at age 48/49 after years of just hopping on and going. I have really enjoyed the lessons and have come to realize how little I know. 

My riding instructor is also studying biomechanics. My horse as a conformation fault or two and learning to ride correctly and learning the biomechanics to help him travel better....well it has changed my outlook a great deal.

My point on asking about collection was I have a feeling some are thinking collection but are more concerned about headset or that headset defines collection. I wanted to hear it their words not from a book.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> Golden Horse, I also took my first lesson at age 48/49 after years of just hopping on and going. I have really enjoyed the lessons and have come to realize how little I know.
> 
> My riding instructor is also studying biomechanics. My horse as a conformation fault or two and learning to ride correctly and learning the biomechanics to help him travel better....well it has changed my outlook a great deal.
> 
> My point on asking about collection was I have a feeling some are thinking collection but are more concerned about headset or that headset defines collection. I wanted to hear it their words not from a book.


I started Ride With Your Mind lessons 5 years ago and it has transformed my riding, the whole thing is about your body and it's impact on the horse and never about "headset" - when you sit, organised your weight and core strength correctly then the horse changes under you and it is a fantastic feeling.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> ...In debates about collection, dressage, and a whole lot of other things I tend to give more kudos to those who have actually ridden in a variety of disciplines, and preferably in both English and Western styles. I find people who have actually 'felt' something actually understand the true meaning of something...


Whatever my faults and inadequacies are as a rider, both Chamberlin and Littauer were very experienced. Chamberlin attended both Saumur and the Italian Cavalry School, and competed in the Olympics in 1920, 1928 & 1932. He literally 'wrote the book' for the US Cavalry - chunks of the Cavalry Manual were lifted directly from 'Riding and Schooling Horses'.

They both argued that dressage done well is exquisite, but that it takes real horsemanship to do dressage well. Both argued there were OTHER approaches to riding, equally valid - and more so, for a horse whose main use is covering ground. They both felt the goals of a cavalry horse were better met by avoiding training in dressage, which was the term they used for "Olympic Dressage" or "ERER".

Littauer literally wrote a book on the history of modern riding, and he included many quotes from authors in the 1500s and 1600s.

I have no need to ride a horse who is ready to change directions in an instant. Frankly, Mia and I did enough of that in the past to fill my quota of instant changes of direction for the rest of my life. So for MY purposes, the short-duration 'collection' that Littauer called 'gathering' is sufficient. Mia is learning to do a sharp 180 on a trail without bracing her back, and how to scoot down a hill with her rump tucked under. And FWIW - the Cavalry taught maintaining a forward seat going downhill, and it seemed to work for them - but this old boy leans back. Going downhill, I want my back perpendicular to the earth.

I think dressage is a fine sport for an intermediate or advanced rider. I do question choosing it for a beginner. I have steady hands. I have light hands. But I don't have understanding hands - hands that respond well to what the horse is thinking. I honestly think I'm a good 5 years of riding away from having any business learning dressage. I don't think it is fair to the horse to put a horse 'on the bit' unless you understand and respond to the horse well. I consider it analogous to the difference between people who desensitize their horse and those who teach the horse to be confident in its rider's judgment: any fool can do the former, but it takes some understanding to do the latter.

For that reason, I think beginners ought to be taught either a forward seat or a western seat, and in both cases should start with slack reins on a horse that neck reins. Some might get past that stage in 6 months, while some of us may take a decade. And it is my experience in learning to ride that is convincing me that some approaches are better for a beginner than others. In that sense, being a 5 year rider who started at 50 gives me an advantage over those who were born on a horse, because I've had recent & adult experience in trying different approaches as a beginner!

Arguably, Cowboy Dressage may make sense for beginners who want to ride with modest collection. I actually prefer the CD approach to the WD approach because it seems more open to lightness and freedom for the horse to choose its balance. I think that is a better approach for an inexperienced rider. But then, a big part of my argument is that there ARE options, and that no one approach to riding defines 'good riding'. My objection is not to dressage, but the idea that all riders need to ride IAW its principles...:?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'd like to add one other point. We now know things about riding that we did not know 50 years ago. Horses have now been ridden with sensors on the spine to measure what happens to a horse's spine when ridden. The answer is that it always sags. There is no lift coming from 'rounding' the back.

We know that the muscles don't work the way we thought. The long muscles of the back function as a series of muscles, not a long one. And we know that the muscle use when ridden isn't what we expected because in some cases, the opposite muscles are being used compare to what we always thought.

We know more about a horse's vision, and the limits of their binocular vision and that they have a small area of high resolution in their eyes.

We've measured footfalls, durations and forces. We've measured what horses are doing when they move.

That new knowledge should impact how we think about riding. It doesn't mean we need to throw out 2500 years of experience, but it should give us food for thought as we try to understand riding.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Honest to goodness, that was a beautiful ride to watch (original post)!!!!

Nothing like adding Western or Cowboy to the term Dressage to create a stir. You'd think that "real" dressage had been contaminated.

If it creates better horses and riders, and benefits the horse industry, I'm all for it. And it does look like it is pretty much here to stay.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

bsms said:


> The answer is that it always sags. There is no lift coming from 'rounding' the back.


That simply isn't true or it is being misinterpreted by readings and sensors, one persons description may not be understood by other's reading of it, if you have never felt a back lift then I guess you would not know that it does, but the horse wpuld need the correct muscles to allow it to do so anyway.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Dimsum - I had avoided bringing tack into the discussion as though it might make riding easier or more comfortable I don't see it as part of the scenario that we're debating - which is how the same cues/aids and general effective riding seat are the same
I can't find any info about the Chinese way of riding or that it influenced the way we ride today. The only info I could find on the Mongolians is from people who have taken riding holidays there and say that the ponies don't respond to our cues/aids. The areas might have encountered and traded with each other but never lived side by side
I also don't see pictures of people riding in active situations as an example that they are using a totally different way of asking the horse to move forwards, backwards, sideways or around in a circle - you'll see all sorts of different positions in a show jumping ring or a dressage arena. There are people now that ride in a chair seat position - that doesn't make it a new style - it makes it either a bad style, one that's effective for a particular situation or one that's adopted due to some physical problem - usually arthritic knees
If people have no use for collection - then I have no problem with that - but unless you have felt the difference how can you comment


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Sorry, but can anyone remember what the original point of contention was?


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> Sorry, but can anyone remember what the original point of contention was?


I THINK it started about collection, but different disciplines do have different standards. I think it boils down to:

1) Collection can be achieved when the horse is on the aids, and in perfect balance; his manner can be calm and relaxed; it requires no particular frame except what is necessary, for this horse, to be at-the-ready; and

2) Collection is ONLY achieved when the horse is on the aids, his balance is evenly distributed on all 4 legs, or sometimes more on the hindquarters; that he work in a shortened frame; and that he carry a tension, or energy, ready to express to the utmost, at the will of the rider.

Whether tradition or history makes one view or another more legitimate, well, I dunno. . . the cavalry movie was astounding, but also, kind of horrible.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Beling said:


> I THINK it started about collection, but different disciplines do have different standards. I think it boils down to:
> 
> 1) Collection can be achieved when the horse is on the aids, and in perfect balance; his manner can be calm and relaxed; it requires no particular frame except what is necessary, for this horse, to be at-the-ready; and
> 
> ...


There was also some contention over using the term "dressage" and what it meant or means to people now and some people have an issue with it being used with the word "western". There is also an apparent issue about what dressage actually is which has led on to "collection" and it's origins and uses.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

I'm hoping I don't make a muck of this post.

I've often heard that Dressage is the base of all riding disciplines. Is it really, though? To say low level Dressage is the base of a riding disciplines is to say that at low level, western pleasure, reining, jumping, etc are all the same as Dressage, because they're all the same. So why isn't it said that WPmis the base of all riding if at low level, everyone's doing the same thing anyway? Or is it really that riding disciplines have certain building blocks and after a point they go off into their own interpretation of things? So after these building blocks, WP is WP, reining is reining, Dressage is Dressage, etc.

If at low level it's all the same (because we're all using the same building blocks), then why does Dressage proclaim itself to be the basis of all, versus say...reining? Don't all the riding disciplines - Dressage included - really just take the same building blocks and after a point do their own thing with them?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

DancingArabian said:


> I'm hoping I don't make a muck of this post.
> 
> I've often heard that Dressage is the base of all riding disciplines. Is it really, though? To say low level Dressage is the base of a riding disciplines is to say that at low level, western pleasure, reining, jumping, etc are all the same as Dressage, because they're all the same. So why isn't it said that WPmis the base of all riding if at low level, everyone's doing the same thing anyway? Or is it really that riding disciplines have certain building blocks and after a point they go off into their own interpretation of things? So after these building blocks, WP is WP, reining is reining, Dressage is Dressage, etc.
> 
> ...


 
I don't believe dressage is the basis of all riding, as western seems to have very different values (and I admit to knowing little about ), but in the UK dressage at a basic level is the basis for most riding over here, we all start with lessons which are based around simple dressage ideals of balance and contact and then these are often adapted for other forms of riding. For me the basics of dressage are fundamental to riding, a simple prelim test shows a horse and rider demonstrating their ability to work together nicely and in balance.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Perhaps a compromise understanding would be that in the UK, traditional dressage is normally used as the foundation of riding, but that other places might have a different tradition that most beginners learn.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Okay, I'll be honest, I skipped over much of the discussion because I just don't have the time to try to catch up on it and, no doubt, I've heard it all before anyway LOL.

What I saw in the video was a well started young bridle horse, nothing more, nothing less. I saw nothing "dressage" about it except for the ring (I'm stating this as a _discipline _term, not in the baser sense of "dressage = training"). Yes, the horse is very light and responsive and on the aids. Is he collected? Not in the sense of an upper level english dressage horse. Is he collected for a western horse? Somewhat. He's working well off his hind end, which is obvious in his stops and rollbacks, and that's a huge necessity for a working cattle horse. If they can't stop and spin on their haunches, then they are going to get beat by a cow every single time. However, this horse is still very young and can't be expected to maintain a higher level of collection for extended periods of time.

Would that horse win a reining class or ace a dressage test? Not a chance. But, he would be a stellar little working ranch/cow horse which is kind of the point.

When I look at this horse, I see a young bridle horse still in the first stage of training, with the bosal, so his training equivalent is likely that of a training level dressage horse. He's likely no older than 3 or 4. That still doesn't stop him from having some really wonderful training on him. 

Handling a horse and a garrocha pole at the same time is difficult, much like handling a horse and a rope at the same time. Too often, people focus too much on the rope or the pole and their horsemanship goes out the window.

Anyway, it's hard for me to think in terms of "dressage = training" because it's very difficult for me to separate dressage from Dressage and even in lower levels, the goals between a dressage horse and a western horse are completely different. Dressage horses, from what I see, are supposed to be light on their feet and somewhat "above" the ground. Western horses aren't. Western horses are supposed to travel somewhat "in" the ground, ready to get down and suck back in front of a cow









hit the ground and stop hard, ready to spin a 180 and head the other direction









or ready to absorb and hold or pull against the force of 500+ pounds hitting the end of a rope tied to the saddle horn


















There is no chance that a "dressage" horse could do that. They'd get beat by the cow or yanked over by the rope.

So, because the goals are so different, I think it's unfair to judge them by the same rules.

Personally, I don't like the whole "western dressage" movement because in ba$tardizing both, it becomes neither, nor carries any resemblance to either beyond tack appearance.

A horse is either well trained or it's not, IMHO. But a well trained reining horse isn't going to be a well trained dressage horse isn't going to be a well trained ranch horse.

I think one of the reasons why folks have such a hard time deciding how to judge "western dressage" is because it's neither western nor dressage. Western folks like me look at those typical WD horses and see horses that are tense, landing front-heavy, pushy in the bridle, and would basically be worthless for any type of _real_ work, among other things. Dressage folks look at a typical WD horse and see a false frame, lack of collection, and "flat" gaits, among other things.










Anyway, that's just _my _feeling on the whole thing LOL.


Oh, and for those wondering about the poles, they aren't to prepare a horse for stabbing a bull, they use them to handle cattle. Here's a video of some working garrochas using the poles. Their horses aren't what _I _would call "handy", but again, judging using different rules...


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

I originally thought that WD was about taking the Dressage training pyramid, and then applying it Western style - Western tack, gaits, ideals, etc. The more I read, the less I understand about it all!

In the original video, I saw a happy horse who looked ready and willing to please the rider. I wish my horse was so light like that! I see that in a lot of really well trained Western horses but it's not quite something I see in English riding.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm coming to the conclusion that WD/CD's greatest problem is the"D". Maybe it is time to come up with a different name for it. Or, if riding western and wanting more collection, precision, whatever, looking into Vaquero school of riding. It's there, it doesn't need to be re- invented.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

deserthorsewoman said:


> I'm coming to the conclusion that WD/CD's greatest problem is the"D". Maybe it is time to come up with a different name for it. Or, if riding western and wanting more collection, precision, whatever, looking into Vaquero school of riding. It's there, it doesn't need to be re- invented.



See, this is my thinking as well. Why even both throwing the term "dressage" into it at all, except as a gimmick to draw more interest. Most of the WD horses I've seen have been nothing more than a really crappy version of a bridle horse. Folks who ooh and aah over WD really need to go watch a hackamore horseman work with his bridle horses. Because that's true and functional and traditional and _real_. WD is just a cheap knockoff.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

smrobs said:


> See, this is my thinking as well. Why even both throwing the term "dressage" into it at all, except as a gimmick to draw more interest. Most of the WD horses I've seen have been nothing more than a really crappy version of a bridle horse. Folks who ooh and aah over WD really need to go watch a hackamore horseman work with his bridle horses. Because that's true and functional and traditional and _real_. WD is just a cheap knockoff.


 Yup, exactly. You know, about 15, 20 years ago a trainer in Germany stated offering clinics and lessons in what he called "hobby rider academy". He had studied the old masters, from Xenophon to de la Gueriniere to Vienna, but also liked the Spanish Doma Vaquera, rode western himself and competed successfully, and really liked a good bridle horse. He pretty much threw it all together and taught this. Result was a rider with light hands, sitting very well, being able to precisely direct his horse in all gaits, and a very happy horse, using his hind end well under himself, requiring a mere thinking of changing direction or speed. A true joy to watch. Unfortunately it never made it here, not him, not his books.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree that horse is still early in his career as a 'bridle' horse, but he is better balanced and more responsive that most any training level dressage horse I've seen.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

You know, that's one of the things that has always struck me as a little bit odd between western and English horses. English horses are trained so slow compared to what I'm used to seeing. They are subjected to months of groundwork and ground driving and walking around before they even get to trot because they are trying to "perfect" the movement before they go on to something else....but western horses are expected to handle similar to the horse in that first vid within a few months at all 4 gaits and, if they are a working ranch horse, they are already being roped off of and used to drag calves and doctor larger cattle.

I don't know if it's the difference in actually having a _job_ for the horse or what.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

they teach neck reining within the first 4 months of backing /training the hrose?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Oh, and sorry for the double post, but honestly? This is what I picture when I think of the "CD/WD" discipline...and obviously frustrated horse with no semblance of collection, being ridden 2 handed, with tight reins, and getting yanked on in a curb bit. Every movement was sloppy and discombobulated and rushed and just, well, _ugly_.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

smrobs said:


> You know, that's one of the things that has always struck me as a little bit odd between western and English horses. English horses are trained so slow compared to what I'm used to seeing. They are subjected to months of groundwork and ground driving and walking around before they even get to trot because they are trying to "perfect" the movement before they go on to something else....but western horses are expected to handle similar to the horse in that first vid within a few months at all 4 gaits and, if they are a working ranch horse, they are already being roped off of and used to drag calves and doctor larger cattle.
> 
> I don't know if it's the difference in actually having a _job_ for the horse or what.


 In the old days it was done slow, because a3 year old Warmblood was usually lean and lanky, had trouble balancing itself, let alone with a rider( I nearly got sea sick on the youngsters). How it is now,I couldn't say, it's been a while since I was in that"scene", but I do know that the high price auction horses, the 5 and 6- digit kinds, often need about a year off with the new owner. Totally messed up,physically and mentally, due to being asked too much as 3 year olds.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> they teach neck reining within the first 4 months of backing /training the hrose?


Tiny, every horse I've ever rode was neck reining before they had 30 rides on them. Some as quickly as 8 to 10 rides, if they were ready.

However, I start working on all that, and leg yeilds too, the instant I start putting that very first ride on them.

When I start training a horse, then I need them to be able to do the job and do the job well as soon as possible. I'm not talking about spending 15-20 minutes on them, 3 times a week, plodding in an arena. From ride 1 in the roundpen, I'm working them like I expect them to work. I teach them to stop and turn exactly when I say so, no lollygagging. By the time they have a handful of rides on them, they're ready for the outside world and ready to go to work for real. I spend hours on them in a day, then spend hours on them the next day...and the next...and the next. When I'm working cattle, I'll spend 8+ hours on a youngster, covering rough terrain at all 4 gaits, working cattle which requires quick turns and hard stops and responsiveness to every single cue every single time.

10 days of doing will teach a young horse more than 10 months of plodding around the arena for 30 minutes 3 times a week and, because the work varies so greatly every time (not drilling the exact same thing over and over and over), they don't get sour or frustrated. They learn and the more they learn, the more they _want _to learn, the more they want to _please_.

Just as an example, on a horse that most folks here are familiar with. I finally got around to starting Rafe in earnest in June. His first ride outside the roundpen was on June 12. Less than a week after that, I was taking him to ride through cattle. I was later putting him in a curb than I normally am because I honestly didn't think I had one to fit him, but he was still in one on September 3 when I found that I _did _have one to fit, but he had been neck reining like a pro in a snaffle since early July.

I used him shipping cattle in the middle of September and he was, _maybe_, 45 rides in at the time but he was still working gates, neck reining, watching cattle to the best of his ability, and was obedient enough to work the rope on a 900 pound yearling heifer (sadly no pictures of that).

Not to sound like a braggart or anything, but he did all that well and he looked _good _doing it. While he wasn't perfect, he was responsive and willing and there were no holes that I found, just a touch or two of typical young horse misunderstanding.




































This video is almost 2 months old and he was still at much less than 60 rides when it was taken. He's slow, but considering how much difficulty I had in the beginning getting him sensitized to my cues (he is a definite plodder and is lazy by nature so getting _any_ response quicker than cold molasses took a lot of work LOL).




 



Anyway, as I said, I'm unsure whether the biggest difference is the amount of time spent with them, or the horse actually having a job that needs done, or whether it's just the differences in expectation of how long it _should _take...I just don't know.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Just the different types of horses and riding - QHs are much more physically and mentally mature at 3 yrs than a WB who is very lanky, gangly, mentally very young and not terribly balanced (in general, not talking auction horses that get brain fried to be shown as 3yr olds in the youngstock auctions). 

Also the disciplines they are used for are very different. Not everyone starts with months of groundwork and walking though - I like my young horses to be roughed up a bit. I have sent my 3 yr old to a western breaker who always does a super job and doesn't treat the horse like its a little 'fairy princess' as many of the Dressage focussed breakers do. My personal opinion is that in a youngsters 3yr old year, it would benefit greatly from simply learning basics and going bush in a regular basis before being stuck in and arena every ride and turned into a Dressage horse. The balance and stamina on horse's brough on like this seems to be better than those who spend all of their time between a stable and an arena (usually indoor). 

But, the slower training of a Dressage horse is due to the fact that basic work actually does need to be perfected before a horse can progress to the next level. This is due to building the appropriate muscle, balance, strength, gymnastic ability and mental component. It is a long process, that will take upwards of 10 years for the majority of riders to reach international level (PSG and above).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

smrobs said:


> You know, that's one of the things that has always struck me as a little bit odd between western and English horses. English horses are trained so slow compared to what I'm used to seeing. They are subjected to months of groundwork and ground driving and walking around before they even get to trot because they are trying to "perfect" the movement before they go on to something else....but western horses are expected to handle similar to the horse in that first vid within a few months at all 4 gaits and, if they are a working ranch horse, they are already being roped off of and used to drag calves and doctor larger cattle.
> 
> I don't know if it's the difference in actually having a _job_ for the horse or what.


 
They are trained slowly (dressage or just being backed it all starts the same way here) because it is believed in the UK at least that that is the best way to do it - slowly, gently giving horses the necessary time to build the muscles they need to do what is asked of them. Some people do use quick fix gadgets but they rarely end up with a correctly moving supple and balanced horse. Yes you can get a horse backed and working in all four gaits in four months, but to build the strength and muscles often takes longer, especially when horses are young and still growing. The horses over here do not have a "job" to do so they become the priority rather than the job that needs to be done, there isn't much (any) money to be won at dressage unless you are really at the top so it is unlikely to ever be a necessity for earning money being the governing factor. (The horses themselves are valuable, but that is a different thing and taking time to produce the best is then worth it).


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

smrobs said:


> You know, that's one of the things that has always struck me as a little bit odd between western and English horses. English horses are trained so slow compared to what I'm used to seeing. They are subjected to months of groundwork and ground driving and walking around before they even get to trot because they are trying to "perfect" the movement before they go on to something else....but western horses are expected to handle similar to the horse in that first vid within a few months at all 4 gaits and, if they are a working ranch horse, they are already being roped off of and used to drag calves and doctor larger cattle.
> 
> I don't know if it's the difference in actually having a _job_ for the horse or what.



I do not see this as being necessarily so.

When I was doing a lot of breaking of young horses, and most are not started until they are at least three years, I would say that it was about five days to have it lungeing well, voice obedient and keeping parallel to me regardless of whether it was on a circle or going straight. Use to the tack. Long reined not in the arena but out and about, for about the same time and then ridden out and about. 
By the end of six weeks, I expected the horse to be going out and about roads and tracks on its own and in company, happily walk tot and cantering. Popping small ditches and logs, capable of opening and closing gates whilst mounted, going forward freely and happily and traffic proof. It would know the basics of moving away from my legs, happily go in a basic outline or on a loose rein. 

In that six weeks it would basically only work in the arena for the lungeing and initial long reining, certainly rarely ever ridden in a confined area. These horse would have had about 

If you look at the German horse sales. Many of these horses are sent to the big sales, like Verden prior to the sales. There they are started and prepared for the sale ring. These three year old horses and ridden, loose jumped and some with a rider, at show days prior to the sales. Their basic training is around 4. - 6 weeks. If that is taking things slow then I would think that anything faster would be rushed or corners cut. 

I have never, ever spent weeks doing 'ground work' teaching a horse to lead, loose pen it, etc etc - I can see no point it it. Everything I want a horse to do I can teach it from its back or, in day to day handling in the stable.

This is an average, some horses can take longer for a variety of reasons some less. Mostly dealing with TBs bred for jump racing. All had a minimum of 26 hours riding.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It isn't the dressage in the sense of the sort of stuff we see in the arena competitions that is the base of most modern day riding but where that all started from - which was a method of riding that began about the time of the Renaissance period in Italy and spread rapidly through Spain, Portugal and France. Before long moved into Germany and Holland and eventually into Britain and Ireland. 
It involved having a horse that could be ridden (when needed) between the hand and leg in various degrees of collection so it would be better prepared to move in any direction in a much faster response time. Collection = condensed energy that's waiting to be released. It also enables the rider to lengthen and shorten the stride without losing impulsion. 
Standardized aids/cues were introduced to ask the horse to perform maneuvers such as moving sideways, sideways and forwards, turning on the haunches and forehand, moving backwards so that in effect any rider could get on any horse and it would understand what was asked of it
The cues needed for these things are what steered riders away from the 'chair seat' into the leg position we now accept as most effective in western or European riding
What we now call 'Dressage tests were (and still are) Training tests.
The Spanish brought this way of riding with them when they settled here and later on the Europeans brought the same way of riding with them and it evolved from there into a form that best suited the need
The warmblood as it is today didn't even exist then - its a type of horse that's been selectively bred over recent years to excel in the competitive dressage arena, just as the quarter horse has been bred to excel at what it does.
The meaning behind being the base of all riding (in a normally trained horse) is that regardless of whether its a Euro dressage horse, ranch horse, WP, CD, WD, reiner, show jumper, hunter, trail horse or anything else you should be able to get on it and it will respond to the same cues/aids you normally use


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_Collection = condensed energy that's waiting to be released._"

No. Mia is not collected, but I have ample experience with her spinning, jumping and exploding with energy...unhappily, without being asked to do so or giving any significant warning. A horse can spin fast enough for the poley of an Australian saddle to bruise my thigh and do so from a completely uncollected state. Strolling down a trail, acting unconcerned...and then we would be sitting 6 feet to one side and pointed 60 deg away, often between a couple of cactus. She always seemed to land between the cactus, but she was fully capable of rapid and even violent movement from an uncollected state.

Of course, that was not desirable behavior. But it does confirm a horse can move with extreme rapidity from an uncollected state into a position some distance away, which takes energy and the ability to instantly convert that energy into motion.

"_It also enables the rider to lengthen and shorten the stride without losing impulsion._"

I can lengthen or shorten Mia's stride, but it also results in a velocity change. I have no need to shorten her stride while keeping her working just as hard, because I don't WANT my horse working as hard or harder while going less distance. I want her to learn efficiency, not how to work hard while going nowhere.

"_10 days of doing will teach a young horse more than 10 months of plodding around the arena for 30 minutes 3 times a week and, because the work varies so greatly every time (not drilling the exact same thing over and over and over), they don't get sour or frustrated. They learn and the more they learn, the more they want to learn, the more they want to please._"

Last winter, we seriously considered shipping Mia to my friend's ranch in Utah. I'm convinced having cattle and sheep to work would do her a world of good in getting over her fears. As it was, switching her to a leverage bit last December resulted in a big improvement in her behavior, enough so that we kept her here in Arizona. Besides, my finances didn't include paying for 1500 miles of round trip...

Ask her to do figure 8s in an arena, and it takes about one Figure 8 before she asks me if I've noticed we are going in circles and suggests I buy a map. Ask her to do 6 figure 8s on a trail while waiting for the slower horses to catch up, and she is fine with it. Based on a sample size of one, I'd guess some horses learn better when they see a reason for doing something. 

The briefer periods of 'collection' needed by most western horses do not require the physical conditioning that sustained collection requires, which is one of the reasons I distinguish between training for collection and basic riding.

I really like Harry Chamberlin's books. But last night, I read his chapters on training a horse to use a bit with increasing frustration. His training was in Europe, and I wanted to reach thru the pages, shake him and shout, "*Go West, young man!*" The end result of his months of training for a horse seemed to be the same as what most western horses are taught from the beginning. Although he rejected the goals of dressage (or Olympic Dressage, or ERER) for balance and motion, he didn't seem to realize that much of what he wrote concerning reins was geared to the same sustained collection goal.

When he wrote that a horse needed to be on the bit to be controlled, I wanted to ask him what he thought all those ranch horses out west were doing. I've always argued that in a sense, western horses ARE 'on the bit', in the sense of being sensitive to the cues and responsive to inputs. The weight of the slack reins, amplified slightly by the leverage of a shank, seems to be an adequate substitute for 'contact', at least.

Since being 'on the bit' in the FEI sense or in Chamberlin's sense is not required for control, then I'm left with believing its function is to set the horse and rider up for success as they ascend the dressage training scale. It cannot be the definition of 'good riding' unless the vast majority of western riders suck. :-x


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When a horse spins and turns like that or suddenly leaps off you will find that its getting its hind end underneath it and lifting its front end - all by itself
All training does is harness a horses natural ability and use it to its full potential as and when needed


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Mia did not collect, in the FEI sense. She would freeze her back, then shift weight and move, all in about 1/10th of a second. If collection is merely defined as a weight shift to the rear, then she collected. But that is not the sort of 'collection' ANYONE trains for. It was completely undesirable, and utterly natural. Training is needed to remove that sort of 'collection' and replace it with a more comfortable motion for both horse and rider. It does not harness that motion, but replace it with a better motion.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

jaydee said:


> When a horse spins and turns like that or suddenly leaps off you will find that its getting its hind end underneath it and lifting its front end - all by itself
> All training does is harness a horses natural ability and use it to its full potential as and when needed


AND can be stopped doing it at any time also....


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

We're certainly not using the word "collection" to mean the same things. *In riding*, most definitions REQUIRE the horse be "on the aids" first: that means submission, a ready willingness to both GO and STOP, TURN, etc.

smrobs, you made some great points. The picture of the cowboy on the high-prancer looks quite ridiculous! And shows what I suspect is creeping into "D"ressage: which is trick-riding. Nothing wrong with that, but it is not "developmental" or a progression in training. Anyone can train a horse to do a trick. It might LOOK correct at first, but the bracing, tension, swishing tail, locked jaw, crookedness---you can usually spot the "trick" passage, even if it looks great at first.

I believe WD dressage added the word "dressage" because lettered arenas are available; because there are many riders who don't have access to trails and cattle, but still prefer to ride Western-style; curiosity about dressage by Western riders; and to give dressage students riding ordinary horses, a place where they could show and have a chance to win. . .so long as they used a Western saddle.

One more thing: dressage as I understand it is about "quality of movement"---not so much just _doing_ a job, but _how_ it's done. This can take some time, because it involves not only physical development but a quiet, well-adjusted attitude on the part of the horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I know what you mean about a hrose being able to spin without being collected. Mac could do this masterfully. He'd be ambling then he'd be doing a 180 so fast, I'd be toast. But, he was never collected. he did this by ducking his head, dropping the front part of his body, and literally bouncing off his planted front feet. He'd be very stiff in his body, and his 180 swing would be like a gate swinging, creating a lot of centrifugal force for the rider, who is out there, half way down the "rail" of the back. makes it very hard to stay in the saddle.

A collected and balanced horse spins around his center, not by bouncing off his front legs. it takes more work from the abdominal muscles and a bend in the hind legs to lower the rear.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> Mia did not collect, in the FEI sense. She would freeze her back, then shift weight and move, all in about 1/10th of a second. If collection is merely defined as a weight shift to the rear, then she collected. But that is not the sort of 'collection' ANYONE trains for. It was completely undesirable, and utterly natural. Training is needed to remove that sort of 'collection' and replace it with a more comfortable motion for both horse and rider. It does not harness that motion, but replace it with a better motion.


 Who said anything about collection?
You're trying to over think everything
What I said is that a horse has a natural ability to get its back end underneath it - or turn on the forehand - to spin around to remove itself from a situation it doesn't want to be in
As a rider we can use that natural ability to our advantage and train the horse to do these things to command - and in a more balanced fashion
You look at the speed these horses can spin - if the rider wasn't experienced and ready for the action that they've asked for then they wouldn't be still sitting there after the first turn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyNpp5MVSTA


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Ok, I've been on vacation so I'm doing a bit of catching up here. It appears as though there is a good bit to catch up on. For the OP, I would say this horse is collected as in to mean using his body appropriately and on the riders cues. Is he "dressage " collected, no. He is cowhorse collected. To me a much different looking collection.

Just a tad about the horse just from what I can tell and what I know about the rider. If the rider( Jeff sanders) is sticking to Vaquero tradition that horse was peobably started at 4 years of age. In the Hackamore he or she is being ridden in in the video. The horse will be in that hackamore maybe as long as 4 years. Then will start carrying a bit in the two rein. That will happen for probably another 2-3 years. Then go "sTRAIGHT UP" in the bridle. That is a finished bridle horse in the vaquero tradition(ussually a spade or half breed). which is what Jeff studies. So that being said I would guess that horse is around 5 years old with maybe a year of riding or maybe 6 but could be as old as 8. That I doubt however. Like I said I'm thinking around 5. Also this horse may very well be in the branding pen the day after this competition putting in a days work. a place where the "dressage" headset and collection isn't really a whole lot of help.

As far as 'cowboy dressage" or "western dressage" I really don't care what it is called. I think it is the best term to describe it until something better comes along. i really don't think it cheapens the term dressage and what the english version is. There is something that everybody can use from it to improve their riding and horse. i am striving to improve my riding and ride in a "vaquero" style. My guy is in the two rein right now but when my mother inlaw comes to visit I always take a dressage lesson from her( shes a dresssage instructor). i feel it just broadens mine and my horses experience level. I drop down to the hackamore and work on little things that I can carry up to the two rein to improve myself and my horse. Also I have to learn to translate what I'm wanting into the language of the hackamore as opposed to a snaffle bit. They do work differently. Or I will ride my wifes dressge horse. That allows me to feel what I'mlooking for when i work on it with my guy. Then i will take my wifes Dressage horse out and check fence, or move a neighbors cow to get her out of the arena and broaden her mind a bit. I think everyone gets a tad uptight when things don't always fit in a nice little box for them. Like I've said before

natural Horsemanship
downunder horsemanship
No dust horsemanship
vaquero horsemanship
dressage horsemanship
english horsemanship
western horsemanship
good horsemanship
bad horsemanship
the common denominator is HORSEMANSHIP. Anything that can improve the horsemanship cant be all bad. No matter what your 'style" just try to be good at it.:lol:


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## Fort fireman (Mar 5, 2011)

Same horse I believe in the two rein.





 
And straight up in the bridle.


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