# Would you trade?



## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

Im thinking about trading my horse, duchess, for this horse named Oliver. He is a 11 year old, double registered quarter horse, gelding, a true 16.1 hands tall, buckskin with a big snip(ish), 4 white socks, he was broke western, and was western until 3 years ago, when this owner got him. She has done jumping and lower level dressage with him, he knows all lower level dressage. He has been there done that kind of horse, gone to many shows, was a trail horse for a long time. He is way more broke than duchess, has alot more training, the owner would still take a straight across trade, she really likes duchess. I have already went and rode Oliver, he liked me, and he is the knid of horse that either likes you, or doesn't, and he liked me. I would do barrel racing with him. He has a HUGE stride, and leaps into a lope. He has ALOT of power. So, i just dont know if i want to trade. I know he is way better broke than duchess, but he is also already 11, and duchess is only 7. Here are some pics of Oliver.







and here are some pictures of duchess, just as a reference.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

sorry its all messy like this =(


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

Um... I dunno.... LOL. I'm not much help. :roll:

I guess it all depends upon what YOU think. I'd be inclined to snap up Oliver. 11 is not old. 

I don't know enough about your situation to give you a solid answer though.

What is your gut telling you???


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

My gut, says yes and no lol. I just like duchess, but i know we are going no were, so i think i will probably trade. He is going to someones place for the weekend so that they can try him out, and he either likes you or he doesnt, so im hopeing that he dont like her lol, but if he sells, then it was not meant to be.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

Oliver was also a model, he model for the dynasty equine vet supply magazine, or its something like that, the lady had 10 other horses and they choose him, he gorheous in the summer time, still not bad looking in witner either lol. I went and rode him in December, so i have not be able to see him in a summer coat. but im told he is just gorgeous, and by looking at those couple pictures, i would say so.


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

That's a great attitude. If it's meant to be it will happen. Good Luck!!!


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks, here are three videos of him jumping. He likes to GO, so she does have to hold him back, but he settles after a bit. Thats why she is selling him, she likes fuddy duddys lol, she also likes mares way better. I like horse that want to go, i dont like to stop and smell the flowers, i want to go adn be somebody lol. Here are the videos


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

I know less than nothing about jumping. He's Very handsome though.

You'll have to keep us updated on what you end up doing!!!


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## morganshow11 (Dec 19, 2008)

Personally i do not like him. I do love his stride though. But for 11 y.o he looks a little not as trained as they are saying(but i don't know for sure)


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

He is a beauty, there is no denying that but I really didn't like those videos of him jumping. It looked like a barely controlled runaway. If you did trade, you would have a lot of retraining to do before he was close to being show ready. Plus, taller horses generally don't do as well at barrels because their center of gravity is so much higher and they have trouble getting those long legs and long bodies collected enough to make the tight turns around the barrels. I personally think that you would do better with your mare, just give her more time. She is gorgeous. Does she have speed enough to be a competitive barrel horse? How tall is she? Plus, she has a fairly short back which should allow her to excel at speed and quick turn events.


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## guesy (Jan 30, 2009)

By watching the videos, he doesnt look like he would be good for you because you said you want to do barrels. You can definetaly that he has the dressage going on for him, but his jumping is very sloppy. If you were a jumper, i would say go for it because his jumping can be fixed. but his headset will simply not work for barrels. Both horses are VERY cute though, good luck choosing


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I can't see the pictures of Oliver, just the images of Dutchess and the videos of Oliver

What exactly are your plans with a horse?
Why does Dutchess fit these plans?
Why does Oliver fit these plans? 
What are the cons of keeping Dutchess?
What are the cons of getting Oliver?

He is VERY forward, and the rider looks very hand-strong and seat-strong to keep him in line. If you are wanting to jump with him, please please try him over a course - you might love him, or he might scare you, it depends on your riding.

There is something about his movement that strikes me as off; his canter just doesn't seem connected front to hind. He does need more work on the whole slow issue haha

I would ask the owner exactly what he was modeling. When I worked for a dude ranch, my farrier (studying to be a vet, was working out of my local University) would ask to use a few horses as models for various things - I can't remember them all, but one was to show a hunter's bump (conformation fault); one was to show what a broken and healed leg looked like 10 years after the fact; another was to show the characteristic muscling of a horse with heaves. 
So I would get clarification 


ETA - your mare has a huge "engine" - have you tried her around barrels? 
Has Oliver every run barrels? Has he ever been ridden western?
I was under the impression that barrel horses are generally shorter than 16hh, so they have a lower center of gravity so they can really dig in and push.. please please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## NoFear526 (Sep 4, 2008)

I agree with what everybody has already said.

I just wanted to add that when he is jumping, he swaps his leads A LOT. Now, I don't know if that is the rider error, giving him mixed signals, but... he definitely swaps leads. 
Don't think that will matter if you are wanting to do barrels, but just a thought. He may not be as well trained as they're saying, or he is that well trained to where he is picking up on mixed cues.

I do like him, but he is quite a large guy to do barrels with.

Good luck with what you decide!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

guesy said:


> You can definetaly that he has the dressage going on for him, but his jumping is very sloppy.


Actually I see very bad dressage. Just because the head is down does not mean the horse has good dressage. He is pulled down behind the bit and avoids the controls in the actual jump anf on the flat between the jumps.

The OP has to make up their own mind but since I also own a dressage/jumper just like the owner of the 11 year old mu opinion is that he is not up to snuff in either discipline.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Barrel horses are generally on the smaller end (mine is 15hh) but bigger horses can do barrels also.  
Just because he is quick, doesn't mean he should be a barrel horse. 
Good barrel horses LOVE barrels just like any other sport. If he has been ridden western, I would try him out. If you can't do the pattern, do some western pattern work. Is he light on his feet? Does he use his hind end correctly? Does he respond well to your seat and legs? Can he do rollbacks? 

He should be able to collect nicely and extend nicely as well. Good barrel horses should be sane and calm. If you got him, I think he may need a bit of work in the calm department. 

Overall, I like him. I didn't really like the way he was being ridden over the jumps in the first video, but I'm not a jumper. 

When you rode him, was it English or Western?

ETA: Oh, and about the leads thing...He should be able to stay on the correct leads during the pattern and doing a flying change when you change directions. It's not huge as it seems like a lot of barrel horses will end up figuring it out on their own because it is easier for them but I like to not have to worry about his lead when doing a pattern.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks for all your comments everyone one. I rode him western, and he did excellent with me. He wanted to go, but he quit after i told him no and he walked calmly with me. He knows dressage he can do the Piaffe(?) i made him do it. He was started wrong. The person who started him "cowboyed" on him, he started him with a SHANK bit and big spurs and tried to make him into a reining horse in 2 months. So he tries to anticipate your cues, cuz he thinks there going to hurt. The current owner has come along way with him in getting him to stop anticipating. He still does, but will calm down very quickly, basically he trots and wants to just go. I know he is well trained though. He has had a lot of training, both western and english. He is also the type that you can take him to new places and its like he has been there a 100 times. Im not worried about his height, my barrel trainer had a 16.1 hand barrel horse that made arena records. He knows flying lead changes so that might be why he is doing that. Also, the owner is willing to just give him to me for just the price of transportation, if i want him. I am the only person that he really connected with. The only other person that he really connects with is Lindsay(current owner). He really liked me, and she feels that she owes it to him, to give him to someone that he connceted with rather than selling him to someone that he doesnt. She has a person that is willing to give her $2,500 and another horse in trade, and she would rather just give him to me. So, i could get a $4,500 horse for $200 or less.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

the only thing that im not sure about, is owning 2 horses again. I dont have a job right now, and here in Prineville, there are NO jobs pretty much. I have enough money right now saved up, but i got hay to buy this year and what not. So, im not sure if it would be better for me to trade Duchess anyways or get both and try and find a job. UGH, im in such a pickle lol


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

reining girl said:


> Oliver was also a model, he model for the dynasty equine vet supply magazine, or its something like that, the lady had 10 other horses and they choose him


Sorry - that doesn't really mean a lot. A horse we owned (and bred) was used in print ads and on air commercials for a vet college. Just means horse owner knows the talent representative.

Doesn't pay much either.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

Hi headset can be fixed, she is asking him to tuck in, other wise he does not do that. My barrel trainer already told me that the headset would be something that needs to be fixed, but it can be done.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

I dont care about the modleing, just something interesting.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Hes pretty but I honestly dont like him from the jumping videos.

If your looking to trade your horse, I would probably keep looking around.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

reining girl said:


> Thanks for all your comments everyone one. I rode him western, and he did excellent with me. He wanted to go, but he quit after i told him no and he walked calmly with me. He knows dressage he can do the Piaffe(?) i made him do it. He was started wrong. The person who started him "cowboyed" on him, he started him with a SHANK bit and big spurs and tried to make him into a reining horse in 2 months. So he tries to anticipate your cues, cuz he thinks there going to hurt.


I would leary of this horse. From the sounds of it the owner is talking him up to be something that he isn't. Is she's owned him for a while these issues should have been resolved. The way it sounds/looks, it seems as though the owner has done a lot of poor training on the horse and is now just trying to get rid of him. If this is an honest to goodness problem the owner should have worked him through before even thinking about jumping him. I also have a hard time believe he can do a correct piaffe given his conformation and on the jump course he doesn't look like he knows how to correctly collect.

I would also be leary of her willingness to make deals, to me it sounds like she is trying to pawn the horse off. In my opinion I would skip him over and keep looking as from the looks of it you'd have to do a lot of retraining to get him to be a competitive barrel horse.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

hum??? well i dont think she is trying to pawn him off, she wants him to go to a good home. She is very picky about were he goes. Whats wrong with his conformation? He rode good and everything. She has worked alot with him on his problem, and he is pretty much cured of it, he just likes to go. Lots of horses like that. I like horses that like to go. But maybe i will just tell her no.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

I have until next week to tell her my answer. I...I dont know what to do. I really like him, and he really likes me. And it is a really good deal. He is a really nice horse, has a great personality. I know she is not trying to pawn him off, she is willing to give him to me, and turn down $2,500 and another horse, so i dont think she is just trying to pawn him off, she is trying to do what is best for Oliver. I know that he has a go problem, but all barrel horses do, well most. I like the fact that he is well broke, and has been to shows with all the noises and other horses and all the comotion. He does know the piaffe, she did it with him, and then i did it with him. I think thats what its called, the one were they hop in the air, with there back feet still on the ground, and they just do a little like pop up and turn or whatever, its something like that. Well, i dont know, im just AHHHH!! right know lol.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

I did not mean to offend you but for someone outside of the situation working off this post alone there are a lot of red flags. In reference to his conformation there just aren't many QH that are built to do a piaffe. They just aren't structurally made for it.

Well a piaffe is a highly, highly collected and cadenced trot. It is an extremely difficult maneuver and you don't see many horses doing it. It is done almost in place. What you're describing sounds more like a rollback. Here's a video of a horse doing a piaffe 



.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

ya, then that not what it is called, i dont remember what it is called that he did, but whatever it is he can do it.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

A horse is only worth what people are willing to pay for it.

To me, Denny is worth a million dollars... to the next person though, he might only be worth meat money.
Okay, in read numbers. I bought Denny for $2500. I felt he was worth the asking price. Others say that I way overpaid on him.
I still believe that he is worth that, if I were to place him on the market right now I would probably ask in the $3000 range.
Chances are I wouldn't get that. 

My friend's gelding was listed at $20,000 in January '06. By April '06 she had dropped his price to $12,000 (there were issues that I won't discuss here) - should the person who bought him at $10,000 think that she got a screaming deal? No, the horse had a few problems that needed to be worked out. The fact is that my friend couldn't get $20,000 out of him... so she had to negotiate a much lower price. 

Price changes mean absolutely nothing. ESPECIALLY in this economy.

Just because he's listed at $4500 doesn't mean he's worth that; if you pay $200, he's $200. 
Insurance companies would agree with me. 

If this woman, who I am assuming you have no prior contact with, says that you can "have" him for transport costs, that is a HUGE red flag. It probably means that she can't get her asking price. It probably means there's something wrong with him.
When was he first put on the market?

If you are worried about owning two horses now, you will only fret more later. 

I am not trying to sound condescending here, I hope you realize.. but the things you're saying about him really don't add up to me


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

_Good_ barrel horses should NOT have a go problem. 

I just want to point that out because you keep mentioning how much you like a horse that wants to go. 

Just a pet peeve

From the videos, If you do get him, he is going to need a lot of arena type work before he is ready to be on a barrel pattern. 

Is there anyway you can lease him? You said you don't have a job, and she apparently isnt out there to make money according to you. This way if something comes up, you don't have horses you can't feed.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Actually... i kind of like him. i think he needs some major work on the flat (and over fences), but if someone were to sell him cheap I'd probably take him on as a project. BUT.. that's me. I jump. And I see potential in there as a jumper. But as a barrel horse? I don't know a lot about barrels but I didn't think they were built like this guy. 

He looks to me like he wasn't started well, rushed over fences, and because of it has some issues that haven't been dealt with. For example, his headset, she is NOT asking him to tuck. She's asking him to woah/balance and he's avoiding the bit by getting behind the vertical. That's a mikmar she's using, a bit popular amongst riders of hot jumpers. Some of them can be rather harsh. 

My biggest question is, why is she selling him? No, basically giving him away to you? She just wants to find him a good home? RED FLAG! She looks like a very capable and talented jumper rider and I don't know anyone who takes their jumpers to go show all over the place and then gives them away unless they have a reason. And usually "a good home" isn't the whole story. 

I don't know. If you were saying, I'm looking for a good jumper prospect I'd say, get a vet check and re-start him from the ground up. But for you wanting to do barrels? I'm leaning towards thinking you'll find a more suitable horse elsewhere. Can you take him out on trial or even a lease-to-own period? A lot will come out once you bring him home for a few days.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

Most barrel horses like to go, they are HOT. Look at all the NFR barrel horses. If you have watched that, they are hot and go. The rare ones are the ones that calmly walk in, and walk out. What is so wrong with his confomation? For a barrel horse he has a nice neck, short back, long underline, ok cannon and pasterns, his butt is not the best, i like a higher tail set. For $200 i dont think its a bad deal. She REALLY wants him to go to a good home, she said she owes it to him. I have meet her and she is a nice person, not the type that would shiste you. She is selling him because she dont like go go horses. He is race horse bred, so he is going to be hotter and want to go more. I dont think she is trying to just get rid of him. If i dont take him she is probably going to keep him. She wants him to go to someone that he likes and has a connection with. So, i dont know from what everyone is saying, he is a terrible horse.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

Hmm. I dunno. 
Oliver seems like a jumper and I'm not sure how he'd do at barrels- have you tried him with them yet? 
It depends how strong your relationship with Duchess is. Would you miss having her?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

He's not a terrible horse, but I don't know if he's going to be what you want.

You would be shocked at what some people will do to get rid of a horse. I got screwed over by a rider that competed in the last summer Olympics... they come in all shapes and sizes. 

$4500 to free is a big deal, that would set of major red flags. 

It sounds like you have made up your mind, we were just giving our honest opinions. 

 ETA - it is most definitely possible to have a barrel horse calmly walk in and out of the ring.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

I personally don't think you should take him. 
He needs a lot of work & if your horse is green, you can always train her to do barrels. This horse seems well used to jumping and such, so I doubt he could do barrels. He doesn't seem like he could bend well enough either..


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

It's not that he is a terrible horse, it is just that he will need a lot of corrective training before he is ready to compete in anything. In my opinion, he is not even close to being show-jump ready. As far as all barrel horses being hot and hard to handle, very not true. There was a lady that ran barrels in the 80's and 90's (I knew her but her name escapes me) that her horses would walk into the arena on a loose rein, run the pattern, stop and walk out on a loose rein. She would almost always be in the money. I really prefer the way your filly looks. But as JDI said, it sounds like you have already made up your mind.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

Ya i have made up my mind, im not getting him. There are too many cons than there are pros. Thanks for all of your opinions.  I will just keep trying with duchess, alothough i have been trying for 2 years, but o well. Anyone i ever e-mail always says, nope no trades, or they sell the horse, or something else happens. It just seems like i am going no where with Duchess. With barrel horses, the ones that i am use to seeing around here, are hot. There are not very many around here that just calmly walk into an arena, but its mostly young girls so they work and work and work and work the horse on the pattern over and over. The horse has no chance, its sad. Well again thanks for all of the opinions.


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

Disappointing as it may seem at the moment, I think you made the right choice. Something just doesn't seem right about the deal. The right horse will come along, it just might take some time to find it! But finding the right one makes the wait soooo worth it! What about Dutchess isn't working? If you've been working with her for 2 years and she's not what you want, why not sell her and use the money to get a new horse? Do you have to trade? Keeping a horse is a lot of money. If you're going to put out that much work/money/effort you might as well have exactly what you want!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

upnover said:


> Disappointing as it may seem at the moment, I think you made the right choice. Something just doesn't seem right about the deal. The right horse will come along, it just might take some time to find it! But finding the right one makes the wait soooo worth it! What about Dutchess isn't working? If you've been working with her for 2 years and she's not what you want, why not sell her and use the money to get a new horse? Do you have to trade? Keeping a horse is a lot of money. If you're going to put out that much work/money/effort you might as well have exactly what you want!


Couldn't have said it better!


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

I agree with what's been said. He looked quite overbent doing some of that flat/jump work. Both of my horses came to me with similar training backgrounds (and it's not a good training background let me be clear) it has taken years to do corrective training on them... but they're wonderful now!

Point being, he may have been undersaddle longer and worked by more people and gone more places, but that didn't necessarily mean that he was more valuable than your horse.


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## equineangel91 (Oct 8, 2008)

I think oliver looks like a lovely jumper. I know i'd enjoy a ride with him =P i love a horse with some power in the stride


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

Ya, i love powerful strides to. The horse market here, i would be lucky to get $1,000 for her. I have tried selling her before and all people want to do is trade. I have had her on dream horse before, I have put fliars of her around town, no one wants to work with a horse.


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## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

So let me see if i got this right, you guys think he is a terrible horse because of his head set? The fact that his head is over bent makes him not worth it? I rode him and yes i was hand strong with him, but after about 5 minutes he quit. All he did was trot, i would say whoa and he would stop then walk then go back to a trot, but like i said after about 5 minutes he stopped. He tries to anticipate your ques, that i know. I know she has worked on him with this, but yes maybe she did rush him over the fences, i know she did alot of dressage work with him, becasue of the que thing. And it has helped him tremendously. Mayb i could buy him and just use him as a trail horse. You dont have to have a perfet conformation horse for that. And go for me is not a problem, i rode and arabian (he was pretty much my first horse, but i didnt own him) that would trot almost the whole way, cuz he liked to go, and i enjoyed it. So would you guys say that Oliver could make a nice trail horse?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

reining girl said:


> So let me see if i got this right, you guys think he is a terrible horse because of his head set? The fact that his head is over bent makes him not worth it?
> I know she has worked on him with this, but yes maybe she did rush him over the fences, i know she did alot of dressage work with him, becasue of the que thing. And it has helped him tremendously.


Hmmmmm

Can't speak for anyone else but this is not a terrible horse but I don't think he is a well trained as represented. I simply posted because I do have a dressage/jumper and think that the jumping skills are not there and nor is the dressage. I would say the owner does not know as much dressage as she may feel she does.

I do not know what your horse can or cannot do so I made no comparison, only you can do that.....just don't compare to this horse as if he were highly trained for he does require work to bring him to where his owner thinks he is.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

No, it has nothing to do with where his head is. 

1) The owner is willing to give away a "$4500" horse. Red flag. She's probably not telling you something.

2) To me, he doesn't look like a barrel horse

3) It looks like he has some training issues that would need to be fixed. The issues are that he rushes, doesn't collect properly, swaps leads every which way, and overall should be brought back to basics and re-started.

4) There is something I don't like about his canter; he isn't connected end to front. 

5) I agree with Spyder, he doesn't look as well trained as the owner says he might be. Anticipating cues is not okay, and if the horse is that jumpy, then something has been missed in his training.

6) My gut feeling is that I don't think he's what you're looking for. 

Those are my honest opinions... not much to do with headset.


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## guesy (Jan 30, 2009)

Spyder said:


> Actually I see very bad dressage. Just because the head is down does not mean the horse has good dressage. He is pulled down behind the bit and avoids the controls in the actual jump anf on the flat between the jumps.


He does not have very bad dressage by any means. His body is being used correctly and that is 70% of what dressage is.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

guesy said:


> He does not have very bad dressage by any means. His body is being used correctly and that is 70% of what dressage is.


 
Oh...and you base those observations on what experience ?


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I have a 1D barrel horse. I can jog around on a loose rein after a run. He is speed and cow bred. Barrel horses that are hot more often than not, have bad training. A horse can love to run and be in the money without being hot. Hot should not be comparable to fast or a good barrel horse.

/rant 

I think he would be fine for trail, barrels, whatever. (Personally, I dont see your next NFR winner, but I could be wrong). 
Regardless of what you want to do with him, I think you need to start him back at the basics as he sounds/looks like he has a lot of holes in his training. 
I would also highly recommend that you get a full PPE done on him. 

Are you still looking at him? Earlier I saw you said you saw more cons than pros but now maybe a trail horse? I'm easily confused


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## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

guesy said:


> He does not have very bad dressage by any means. His body is being used correctly and that is 70% of what dressage is.


Actually I would say that he is NOT using his body correctly... 



No, he's not a terrible horse because he isn't using his head correctly. The way he's responding to her aids (like how he holds his head) shows that he has some holes in his education that need to be filled in. As Spyder said, he's not as well trained as he is being advertised to be. So don't think he's an exceptional deal because of all of his "wonderful training". Again, not the sign of a terrible horse. I think he could probably be fixed and possibly a decent horse with proper training. But could he be a successful barrel horse? That's where I'm doubtful (but admit to being no expert in the barrel world). No idea if he'd be a good trail horse or not, you may have to just try him out and see. But aren't you wanting a barrel horse? Don't settle! If a barrel horse is what you want, keep looking for a barrel horse! You never know what might come up in your price range!


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## morganshow11 (Dec 19, 2008)

guesy said:


> By watching the videos, he doesnt look like he would be good for you because you said you want to do barrels. You can definetaly that he has the dressage going on for him, but his jumping is very sloppy. If you were a jumper, i would say go for it because his jumping can be fixed. but his headset will simply not work for barrels. Both horses are VERY cute though, good luck choosing


For barrels it does not matter what headset he has. My horse has a VERY high headset(like a saddleseat horse, which he is also.) And he is wicked fast on em'.


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## morganshow11 (Dec 19, 2008)

reining girl said:


> Most barrel horses like to go, they are HOT. .


My barrel horse LOVES to go. He is like a temperment 8.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

morganshow11 said:


> For barrels it does not matter what headset he has. My horse has a VERY high headset(like a saddleseat horse, which he is also.) And he is wicked fast on em'.


I'm pretty sure that the head does matter when the horse is running. Your horse might be fast, but if it used its back properly, I'ms ure it would be faster.

Barrel horses should be able to step into an arena, do their thing, and walk out calmly. If not, there is a training hole.


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## Draven (Feb 18, 2009)

Try not to get so frustrated with what people are saying, you asked for opinions and thats what they are giving you. Not everyone is always going to think the same way you do and tell you what you want to hear so you have to take everything everyone says with a grain of salt 

In the end do what _*you* _want to do! Everyone can give you every opinion in the world but does it all *really* matter to you in the end? You should get something that you want not what someone else wants! Only you know whats good for you and what youre looking for and what youre capable of so if you want him then go for it! Just be careful in whatever decision you make and always know that you could make the wrong choice but its all in what you make of it!

If you have concerns about anything get a vet exam done.....they aren't that much money usually and that way you'll know if theres anything wrong with him that you aren't seeing.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Headset does matter in that if they are using their body correctly and moving correctly, their chin will not be on their chest, nose up in the air or whatever.


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