# Horse killed at CA's in TX?



## Palomine

Does anyone know of horses dying at CA's place in TX?

According to owner of deceased horse, the horse was "tied low" staff left horse and when came back?

Horse was dead.

Necropsy was not done, per CA saying it would prove nothing nor show why horse died.

Owner 200 miles away, and was told it would be thousands of dollars.

According to owner, prior to horse being sent down to TX. This posted 2/15/13 on farm's FB page.

"Pharaoh the fabulous Friesian is getting ready to be shipped off to boot camp. A training facility that is so tough on horses even my vet says he may come home hairless. I lost sleep thinking about this and having second and third thoughts. Do I really want to put him through this? But even after all the worrying and sleepless nights, the answer is yes, because my dream is to ride with him and for him to have a fun and useful life. I've been getting him ready by cutting way back on his feed and hay. And he is slimming down and his naughty energy is a tiny bit reduced. His major issue is bolting and bucking. I need professionals to ride through his huge powerful bucking and get him over the trauma of having people being injured by it. He doesn't trust anyone on his back anymore because they all keep falling off. (That includes me!)
So fingers crossed that this highly feared yet respected training facility will be able to get him ride-able and buck-less."



Owner further states she was "warned by CA that horses die in this program" several times. 


The below from page.


"The story of my experience with Clinton Anderson Academy and the Downunder Ranch and the loss of my 16.2 fabulous black Friesian was so sad. Clinton himself told me several times, horses die in this program. I really thought it was a scare tactic to keep out the wimps. I never in the world thought a world class outfit like his would ever allow horses to actually die. But my horse is now buried at the Downunder Ranch in Stephenville, TX, 
Our money for training was returned to us. He offered us a 14.1 hand gelding but I turned it down because I do not have any use for a pony on this farm. We already have a couple 14.1 hand ponies. He offered a free training for any horse in the future. But I won't ever use that. How could I? My trust and confidence has been destroyed. So the moral to the story is to believe what people tell you. If they say horses die in this program believe them."



While I have questions about someone sending horse off after being told this?

I have far more questions for a trainer that openly acknowledges that horses die in his care, when he touts himself as a "gentle trainer"?

This from owner as to what happened.


"What Clinton told me was that he had been tied out low to graze for two hours. When the academy student came back to get him he was laying down and was dead. He could have fallen and broke his neck, heart attack, anuerism. Clinton said that it must have been fast because there was no signs of colic (struggle or rolling). Because it happened so quickly they did not think an autopsy would be able to identify conclusively the COD."

I do also know that for years people talked about Shirley Roth, and Cleve Wells too, and they had horses die as well in their care, and nothing was done to them until recently.

As for tying low? If this is the old school method of hobbling? That means tying horse's head to one front foot and leaving them to fight it out. NOT a kind gentle way to train in my thoughts.

And people who live near his place, say it is not the "happy horsey" place he talks about either.


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## Fahntasia

Holy crap......I would never leave my horse In the care of ANYONE or ANYPLACE that has a reputation of having horses die in their care. That is just terrible!!


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## gypsygirl

honestly, the owner sounds not that smart imo. so its really hard to say what actually happened.

*I need professionals to ride through his huge powerful bucking and get him over the trauma of having people being injured by it. He doesn't trust anyone on his back anymore because they all keep falling off. (That includes me!)*
really ??!


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## Palomine

Sadly, people do.

Shirley Roth was pretty well known in WP for killing horses and abusing them, but nothing was said or done openly until last year. Same with Cleve Wells. And others of all breeds/disciplines too.

Am hoping that others will know of horses that died to see if this is common?


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## greentree

Honestly. People get horses TAKEN by the HS for less.....we have an endurance rider who kills horses, and STILL gets new followers. Makes NO sense to me, and I will not give either of them the time of day.

Nancy


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## MelissaAnn

Wow, this is crazy. Ive never heard of horses dying at the CA ranch, has anyone else?


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## texasgal

One side of the story, folks. But it makes good fodder for a witch hunt.

I don't know the facts .. just am not ready to jump on the bandwagon ...


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## Saddlebag

Sounds like the main aorta blew, like Hickstead if there was no struggle. The dirt around the horse tells a lot. A struggling horse or one that fought the rope will show in the dirt. Same if no struggle. We never know if or when this can happen. A friend was trotting her mare when it dropped like a sack of potatoes. She had blown the main aorta.


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## MelissaAnn

The fact that she was "cutting down on hay and grain" before the horse left is frightening. Poor thing was probably hungry and weak when he left for an intensive training program. That sounds like a recipe for disaster.


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## texasgal

The only think I'm finding on the internet about this is the OP posting about it on other horse forums .....


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## Muppetgirl

Has RateMyHorsePro said anything yet? They are usually on top of these things....


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## OliviaMyee

texasgal said:


> The only think I'm finding on the internet about this is the OP posting about it on other horse forums .....


hmmmmmmm:lol:


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## HowClever

To be honest, the owner sounds a little...odd...on her facebook page. There's a few things she posted that make me skeptical. 

And you bet your *** if my horse died while in a trainer's care without any explanation I would be getting a necropsy done. 200 miles is not very far away in the grand scheme of things and I really can't imagine a necropsy costing thousands. 

Something stinks about this whole thing and I don't think the stench is coming from the CA camp.

*disclaimer* I am not a CA follower, so my opinion is not coloured by some sense of loyalty to him.


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## Clayton Taffy

Last time I got a necropsy done at the university it was $100. Getting the horse there ... that was the problem, I put it in the back of my pick up, covered it with a tarp and drove it there.

I would demand some answers.


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## texasgal

I guess there is no doubt her horse died ..? But even SHE doesn't say anywhere (in what was copied here) that her horse was "killed" ...


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## BlueSpark

sorry, but things happen. No sane trainer at clinton andersons level advertises killing horses, especially one in the nh catagory.

the owner sounds very uneducated.

My BO had a stallion, vet checked 100%, a mare came in for breeding, 2 days later he died in his stall. I saw him at 8pm the night before and he was found dead at 1am. no feed changes, nothing different at all and they had an autopy, which was inconslusive. thankfully the mare owner seemed understanding and was refunded, but many a person would have looked at that situation and blamed the BO. another example, BO took in a free filly off the track, she was a 'roarer'(diagnosed by the vet, that was the only problem he could find), with the intention of giving her some time off, then retraining her as a pleasure horse. she was put out to pasture, and a month later found dead, with no signs of struggle. things happen with horses.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

It sounds like CA did all he could to rectify the situation. The horse dropped dead, he offered another horse. I think if the owner had wanted a necropsy done, regardless of cost, he might have given her the name and number of a vet and let her arrange it ON HER OWN DIME. It might have shown the problem or not, but then she could say that everything possible had been done to find the cause. 

Two sides to every story and it doesn't sound like this is even a complete ONE side. Not a CA follower at all, so I have no dog in this fight. Horses are horses and they can and do find some of the most ingenious ways to die/kill themselves. For such tough, hardy beasts they really are amazingly delicate sometimes.


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## Annanoel

I've scoured the internet to find anything on this, and nothing. 

Now, Clinton Anderson is quite a big trainer I would assume if this did happen a statement would have been made somewhere, something in the media, just something. Maybe they're hiding it? I just don't know what to believe here. The other posts aren't a problem, but they're not official. I also cannot believe the CA himself or any of his students or trainers would say horses die IN the training program because of him. I myself would not want to deal with a trainer who has killed horses, I don't think CA has though. I do think horses can die AT / IN training due to pre-exsisting conditions. These deaths just happen and aren't caused by anyone. I am not a part of the CA clan following at all just looking at both sides.

Why would the owner of said horse send their horse to a trainer who kills horses? That's another question I have here. From her alleged posts on FB she doesn't sound to horse savvy. Also, not feeding your horse before training? That's just wrong too. 

Now, I do believe as others have said things happen. If it's all true and there were no signs of struggle, etc. It could have literally just happened...

_All in all, for me at least. There's too much left unsaid. We don't know what really happened without a necropsy. We have a lot of one side and not the other. _


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## texasgal

Nobody said "kills horses" ... what was (apparently) said was "horses die" ...

If a worried fretful owner says to a trainer "My horse isn't going to die, right?"

Trainer might say "I can't guarantee that .. horses die."

Seems an odd conversation to have, but I think it's extremely unrealistic to think that ANY trainer that has handled thousands of horses isn't going to have one die -- of accident, injury, colic, whater -- at some time or another.

It happens.


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## Bellasmom

Agree with those who think there's more to this than the owner is posting. I cannot imagine a trainer telling someone that "horses die in this program", to begin with. I know the owner is upset, but if the OP feels the horse's death was due to negligence, get off the internet and sue...otherwise at least refer to CA as "the trainer" rather than identifying him on open forums. CA seems like a stand up guy that tried to do the right thing in bad circumstances. I don't know what constitutes slander, but the OP might want to find out if she continues to post on various forums.


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## Ian McDonald

Downunder Horsemanship | Statement from Clinton regarding Academy Horse incident


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## texasgal

I think I shall make this my signature:

"But there are too many looky-lous and sticky beaks that want to stick their nose in and stir up trouble when there's no trouble to be stirred up. "


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## Annanoel

Texasgal, I agree with you. Should have been clearer in what I posted. Not that anyone said he kills horses obviously, but that they do die. That makes more sense.

OP, I do think you need to be careful what you're posting about either side. I've seen quite a few posts when searching almost identical to yours, so I'm thinking they may be you?

Wow Ian thank you, CA just posted that. What a BOLD statement, but then again I don't blame him. His reputation is at stake here.


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## texasgal

Anna .. I know, you were just repeating what the OP posted.


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## Annanoel

*For anyone who is at work, or anywhere else that you cannot access his statement here it is. Directly from CA himself, Ian posted the link from CA's website.*

First of all, this is nobody's business other than mine and the horse's owner. If people would pay more attention to their own lives, their own horses and their own problems, the world would be a much better place. But there are too many looky-lous and sticky beaks that want to stick their nose in and stir up trouble when there's no trouble to be stirred up. 

#1 People need to get a grip on themselves. Animals die. Humans die. It's called life. In fact, there's this bumper sticker that was invented that says "s*** happens." People put it on the back of their bumpers because that's what happens in life. It's called s***  and it happens. Sometimes it's somebody's fault, but a lot of times it's nobody's fault. Again, it's referred to as s*** happens. 

#2 It's unfortunate that the horse died. Reality is we don't know how he died because the owner didn't want to get an autopsy. Horses die at my ranch. Yes, it's called life. We have 60 horses on the ranch, we have dogs and we even have cats. In fact, we had a cat fight in the barn last week, and one of them died. Shocking, yes. It's called life. Animals die. Yes, even Clinton Anderson's animals die. It's called life. I know this is shocking to know that as good as I am and as popular as I am and as famous as I am, my animals don't live forever either. Holy s*** , I must be human. For any moron that's getting his panties in a wad because a horse died at Clinton Anderson's ranch, get a life. 

#3 It's unfortunate that the owner had to go and start this whole fire because I'm the one that has to go put it out. I've apologized to the owner; it's not my fault the horse died. It's not the owner's fault the horse died either. We don't know how it died. We believe it had something to do with either a brain aneurism or a heart attack because it died extremely quickly and there was no struggling involved. Reality is it was the owner's choice not to get an autopsy - she didn't want to get one. 

I apologized to the owner; in fact, I've spoken with her on three separate occasions about this subject. We sent the owner flowers and we refunded all of the owner's money. I did everything I possibly could. In fact, I even offered the owner a Signature Horse free of charge. I went above and beyond to try to help her through the grieving process. A Signature Horse, with all its training, is worth $25,000. She declined the Signature Horse because she said the horse was too small. I had a horse picked out for her that was 14.1 hands high, and she didn't feel like a horse 14.1 hands high was worth having even though it was free and is worth $25,000. Just for the record, the lady is 5'9" and I'm 5'11", Mindy is 14.1. I rode Mindy in front of millions of people for 15 years and never had one email or comment that said I looked too big on Mindy. Just to set the record straight. But she didn't want the Signature Horse - no problem whatsoever. Since she didn't want the Signature Horse, I offered her the opportunity to send another horse to the ranch for the six-week program and we'd train it free of charge. Again, I went above and beyond to take care of a grieving customer. 

I bent over backwards to take care of her needs, and now I'm having to fix this kind of bulls***  and I'm tired of it. So reality is if you think your horse is going to live forever, you're an idiot. Do we do everything in our power to take care of animals on the ranch? Yes, we do. The reality is every once in a while it keeps coming back to that bumper sticker "s*** happens." So people, get a life, get out of business that doesn't involve you and start focusing on your horsemanship and your own lives. When people start doing that, they'll have a lot more success with their horses, a lot more fun and a lot less drama. If it sounds like I'm irritated and I'm cranky about this, I am. All we've done is taken an unfortunate situation and turned it into circus and absolute mess. It didn't have to go this direction. This is my statement and this whole subject is done after this.


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## texasgal

He certainly didn't mince words, huh?


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## Speed Racer

He's ****ed. I would be too, if someone accused me of stating that, 'horses die in my training program'. 

The horse owner sounds like a whackadoodle, and just wants someone to blame for a blameless death. CA is right; shyte happens.


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## texasgal

She will regret not taking that horse he offered her (imo)... she could have sold it and bought herself another tall horse... already trained.


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## BlueSpark

Go CA. I agree 100%
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque

I think he could have worded it a bit more politely. Yes horses do die but I am curious as if the horse was tied with it's head down and why? I would probable have done a necropsy myself at my cost just to rule out anything suspicous.

That seems odd to leave a horse unattended if it were tied that way for a legitimate reason. If he has ridden Mindy for 15 years that means she is pushing 20 and I might not want to take a gift horse either.


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## bsms

I loved this:"I know this is shocking to know that as good as I am and as popular as I am and as famous as I am, my animals don't live forever either. Holy s***, I must be human. For any moron that's getting his panties in a wad because a horse died at Clinton Anderson's ranch, get a life."​


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## Annanoel

I'm just reading it again, and couldn't say go Clint loud enough! I think that was needed and he's right. While it is very to the point, it should get across what needed to be said. That offer for the horse was above and beyond what I would have expected. The owner really shouldn't be hammering on him any longer, he's done all he can.

Love this quote, "So people, get a life, get out of business that doesn't involve you and start focusing on your horsemanship and your own lives. When people start doing that, they'll have a lot more success with their horses, a lot more fun and a lot less drama."


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## texasgal

churumbeque said:


> I think he could have worded it a bit more politely. Yes horses do die but I am curious as if the horse was tied with it's head down and why? I would probable have done a necropsy myself at my cost just to rule out anything suspicous.
> 
> That seems odd to leave a horse unattended if it were tied that way for a legitimate reason. If he has ridden Mindy for 15 years that means she is pushing 20 and I might not want to take a gift horse either.


He wasn't going to give her Mindy. He was just comparing Mindy's size (14.1) to the size of the horse that he offered her.

We don't know that the horse was tied or how the horse was tied or whether that horse was attended or not.. that is rumour.

He also stated that SHE refused the necropsy.


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## Oldhorselady

I'm not an avid CA follower...but I sympathize with his situation and respect his statement.


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## churumbeque

texasgal said:


> He wasn't going to give her Mindy. He was just comparing Mindy's size (14.1) to the size of the horse that he offered her.
> 
> We don't know that the horse was tied or how the horse was tied or whether that horse was attended or not.. that is rumour.
> 
> He also stated that SHE refused the necropsy.


it didn't say she refused it said she didn't want to get 1 which to me implies that he wanted her to pay for it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

churumbeque said:


> it didn't say she refused it said she didn't want to get 1 which to me implies that he wanted her to pay for it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll bet CA would have paid for it, if she had *wanted* one. After all, he refunded all of her training money and was willing to give her one of his horses FOR FREE. That cost him a heck of a lot more than a necropsy would have.


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## texasgal

churumbeque said:


> it didn't say she refused it said she didn't want to get 1 which to me implies that he wanted her to pay for it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*"Reality is it was the owner's choice not to get an autopsy - she didn't want to get one."*


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## CCH

It is worth pointing out that the horses entering this program can probably be described as spoiled and rank. They will require a much different level of training than a 2 or 3yo that has had proper foundations.

I think mentality of the owner can really be seen in this statement:I need professionals to ride through his huge powerful bucking and get him over the trauma of having people being injured by it. He doesn't trust anyone on his back anymore because they all keep falling off. (That includes me!)
​I am not a supporter of CA or a follower of his program. I did go to one of his seminars and enjoyed it. It was refreshing that he didn't treat the horses or owners like fluffy bunnies or play "games" with them. Just reading the information on this incident, I have to side with Clinton.


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## Speed Racer

I don't follow any of the NH gurus either, so it's not like I'm all starry-eyed over CA or his program.


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## greentree

Methinks he doth protest too loudly... To cover himself, the necropsy should have been done by him, then he could have called the owner, told her her horse died of X... no nasty rumors.


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## BlueSpark

although in hindsight, doing it himself would have prevented a tiny portion of this, he cant perform a medical proceedure on someone elses (dead) horse with out consent. If the horse was found dead, the owner was contacted, asked how they wanted to proceed and they felt an autopsy was not needed, he cant go against their wishes and have one done anyways.

Anyone who has trained for other people can sympathise with how aweful it is to deal with owners like this.


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## horselessmom

Ian McDonald said:


> Downunder Horsemanship | Statement from Clinton regarding Academy Horse incident


Oy. He's right, of course, and has the right to be ****ed, but he shouldn't really pen his press releases himself when he's ****ed. Boy, that was ugly.


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## Cynical25

I have nothing of value to add to this discussion. But I totally read CA's entire statement hearing his awesome accent.


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## Allison Finch

Saddlebag said:


> Sounds like the main aorta blew, like Hickstead if there was no struggle. The dirt around the horse tells a lot. A struggling horse or one that fought the rope will show in the dirt. Same if no struggle. We never know if or when this can happen. A friend was trotting her mare when it dropped like a sack of potatoes. She had blown the main aorta.


Hmmm...we only have his word that there was no struggle. It is awfully rare that a horse, while at rest, suddenly just drops dead. I doubt CA is giving the owner the straight facts but, we will never know.


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## Allison Finch

Ian McDonald said:


> Downunder Horsemanship | Statement from Clinton regarding Academy Horse incident


Wow, what an unpleasant and unprofessional rant.


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## Allison Finch

BlueSpark said:


> although in hindsight, doing it himself would have prevented a tiny portion of this, he cant perform a medical proceedure on someone elses (dead) horse with out consent. If the horse was found dead, the owner was contacted, asked how they wanted to proceed and they felt an autopsy was not needed, he cant go against their wishes and have one done anyways.
> 
> Anyone who has trained for other people can sympathise with how aweful it is to deal with owners like this.


Not true. The horse was in his care and his responsibility. He could have averted these rumors by getting a necropsy. If a horse died in my care, it would be done, period.


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## franknbeans

Yeah-a bit rough for sure, but totally warranted. He is ****ed and has every reason to be, IMO. People like the OP go around starting threads like this just to stir the pot when they have no first hand knowledge to go on.


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## Maple

I don't follow the NH scene, and know nothing at all about CA... but I have a new found respect for the way he has put that statement out. Why should he lie down and let something like that spread around FB like wildfire?

For those who believe he should have paid for the necropsy - I don't think that is his decision or place. Any veterinary treatment at all, should be the responsibility of the owner. The owner didn't want it, end of story. If it were so important to the owner to find a reason, she would request it be sent in and think about the finance side of things later. If this were my horse, I wouldn't think twice about it and would have it done. Seriously, what a few hundred dollars if you are willing to pay out CA to train the horse in the first place. 

He's right, horses do die. When I worked at a pretraining yard I had a 4yo mare drop dead from a heart attack while her mouth was tied up. It had been done several times, and this day I went about mucking out the stall across from the pen as normal and down she went - nothing I could do. Owner was upset, but had enough sense to understand that these things happen. 

A bit of a brain and common sense would go an awful long way in the world. I swear the likes of FB have this world goin to pot, too many people venting and moaning on it rather than sit down and deal with the issue with those involved.


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## Ian McDonald

Allison Finch said:


> Wow, what an unpleasant and unprofessional rant.


I happened to catch it about 5 minutes after it was posted and before the word bull**** was censored, omg! U MAD CLINTON? 

I feel his pain though. He's not the only horse trainer who has had to put up with this kind of nonsense lol. It's like Catwalk all over again! Sad that the horse died though. Kind of a shame to make it into a national outrage.


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## Inga

I honestly could care less how this story ends. Truth be told, I think there is guilt on both sides. The owner who admits she has heard terrible things about this trainer puts the "beloved horse" in with him. That proves her guilt in the fate of the horse right there. 

Whether or not CA was guilty of the horses death we will never know. I personally have no use for him but, each to their own. This isn't the first RUMOR I have heard about his abuse but it doesn't matter. I wouldn't put my horses in training with him anyway.

As far as her turning down a 14.1 hand supposedly $25,000 horse? I would have too. I don't want a 14.1 hand, I have no use for it. A horse is only worth what you would be willing to pay for it. To me, a 14.1 hand isn't worth $25,000. no matter what. It might be for many other people but not me. 

I am not sure that it is true that he couldn't have had a necropsy done. Likely the laws vary from area to area but... If it were me, that would have been the first thing I would have pursued. True proof that the horse had something underlying wrong with it, unless it didn't. Probably a little truth on both sides and a whole bunch of drama mixed in.


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## texasgal

He would have paid for the necropsy, folks. He offered her everything but a ressurrection .. he offered the necropsy. SHE REFUSED. 

What if she doesn't believe in cutting up magikal creatures so they can frolic in green pasture heaven in one piece ...? Dead or alive, he's still her horse.

SHE DIDN'T WANT TO DO IT.. her choice.


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## Roperchick

I don't blame him at all for his response. I think all this has gotten WAY outta control. Having only word of mouth from both who's to know what all mistake/info was left out to look like the injured party for either.

I honestly feel for CA. Yeah its unfortunate that the animal died but that should be between him and the owner. Reality is that horses can die alp the time. Hickstead died in the middle of a competition. Accidents, unknown causes can't be avoided so there's no reason to drag it all through the mud.


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## horselessmom

This is a quote from the person who lost the horse:



> A training facility that is so tough on horses even my vet says he may come home hairless.


My question: in what way is the CA's program considered to be so tough? Is this what the NH people think, or what is thought outside of the NH circles?


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## texasgal

horselessmom said:


> This is a quote from the person who lost the horse:
> 
> 
> 
> My question: in what way is the CA's program considered to be so tough? Is this what the NH people think, or what is thought outside of the NH circles?


Given the owner's description of this horse .. this was probably a program for spoiled, dangerous horses. I would imagine it's a tough program .. for the horse and the trainer.


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## Muppetgirl

So.....this horse was tied out low to graze? Does that mean it was staked in the ground and given a length of rope to hang itself on? That's my understanding????


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## horselessmom

texasgal said:


> Given the owner's description of this horse .. this was probably a program for spoiled, dangerous horses. I would imagine it's a tough program .. for the horse and the trainer.


What is meant by "coming home hairless"? Thanks.


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## Ian McDonald

Muppetgirl said:


> So.....this horse was tied out low to graze? Does that mean it was staked in the ground and given a length of rope to hang itself on? That's my understanding????


She seemed to be suggesting that his face was hobbled to his foot and then left there, though that wouldn't necessarily seem like the best idea. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense though. I know that Clint likes to sell his 'patience poles' where you tie the horses from up above.


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## texasgal

horselessmom said:


> What is meant by "coming home hairless"? Thanks.


Don't know .. you'll have to ask the one who supposedly said it.

Could be he was going to work the hair off of him.

Sweat the hair off him.

Ride the hair off him.

??


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## Muppetgirl

Ian McDonald said:


> She seemed to be suggesting that his face was hobbled to his foot and then left there, though that wouldn't necessarily seem like the best idea. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense though. I know that Clint likes to sell his 'patience poles' where you tie the horses from up above.


Yeah, I'm finding that hard to figure out.....tying low could mean a lot of things. Hobbling a face to a foot doesn't sound like a very smart idea.....I've seen lots of techniques, heard of lots of techniques.....but tying a face to a foot would be a first for me:shock:


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## GamingGrrl

I looked at the horses owners FB page, it's filled with fairy and unicorn and butterfly pictures. She also made several suspect posts about waiting to hear if her horse was still alive and then another post about waiting for "the call".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## apachiedragon

I get that he would be upset if he was dealing with a whack job of an owner, but that rant was way out of line. In addition, the "it's nobodies business but mine and the owner". I beg to differ. The truth of this situation is very much the business of each and every single person who sends a horse to him for training, or considers using his techniques to train. If he does not want to be a public figure that is going to get raked over the coals on occasion, he is in the wrong business. I am not a CA follower, but I have worked with some, and either they have the wrong take on the method, or the techniques are a good bit more forceful that other NH trainers I have watched, I don't know. But regardless, to say it's nobodies business sends up HUGE red flags for me. It gives the impression that there most definitely is something to cover up.


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## texasgal

I don't really consider him a NH trainer.. he's not afraid to correct a naughty horse... at all. It's not all games with him ..


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## OutOfTheLoop

I didn't read all this, but I have tied my horses to their legs and left to graze at camp on trail rides. They were trained for this. I have also tied a horse up and come back 30 minutes later to find it layed bs k on the rope dead. Crap happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Annanoel

texasgal said:


> Don't know .. you'll have to ask the one who supposedly said it.
> 
> Could be he was going to work the hair off of him.
> 
> Sweat the hair off him.
> 
> Ride the hair off him.
> 
> ??


LOL, running the scenarios through my mind. Just makes me laugh. Maybe he'll be so scared he'll just lose it at the sight of him?


----------



## texasgal

I'm backing out of this. I'm not on anyone's "side" .. I just hate a witch hunt unnecessary fire-starting.

Hate that the horse died ..


----------



## MsBHavin

texasgal said:


> *"Reality is it was the owner's choice not to get an autopsy - she didn't want to get one."*


This.

straight from her fb "2. Why didn't we get an autopsy-necropsy done? We were told that a vet could be called in to do a necropsy. (It would not be anyone we knew) It would cost 
$250.00 for him/her to come to the farm and upwards to $3000.00 if the cause of death wasn't obvious. We were told by Clinton that it would be hard to determine CoD because it happened so fast, he said they thought it was a heart attack or brain aneurism. The horse was dead. We did not think putting out more money on a dead horse made any sense. If it was natural cause or if it was negligence or accident, the horse was still dead. We felt positive it was not done on purpose. We did not feel we had any recourse in the matter. The horse was dead-we couldn't bring him back."

She didn't want to do one, if she also believes this wasn't done on purpose she really ought to stop posting on fb and acting like he's a 'killer of horses'....but that's just my .02


----------



## Clayton Taffy

Maple said:


> I don't follow the NH scene, and know nothing at all about CA... but I have a new found respect for the way he has put that statement out. Why should he lie down and let something like that spread around FB like wildfire?


Funny, I have lost any respect for him with his seriously childish statement.
He is a professional and he should act like a professional. All of his cussing and talking of underwear is distasteful to say the least.
He could have addressed, with civility and professionalism, everything he stated without having a tantrum and a hissy fit like he did.

I don't have a clue as to what he is or how he trains but, going by his rant, I
would not want him in a stressful situation around any horse.


----------



## Maple

Taffy Clayton said:


> Funny, I have lost any respect for him with his seriously childish statement.
> He is a professional and he should act like a professional. All of his cussing and talking of underwear is distasteful to say the least.
> He could have addressed, with civility and professionalism, everything he stated without having a tantrum and a hissy fit like he did.
> 
> I don't have a clue as to what he is or how he trains but, going by his rant, I
> would not want him in a stressful situation around any horse.


As he stated, he's a human. The response in my opinion, is easily one that any normal person could have responded with. I have nothing wrong with somebody who doesn't beat around the bush, I have more time for those who say what they feel than those who tip toe around things. Just my opinion, maybe I'm wrong or looking at things the wrong way, but that is just the way I see it.


----------



## horselessmom

Taffy Clayton said:


> Funny, I have lost any respect for him with his seriously childish statement.
> He is a professional and he should act like a professional. All of his cussing and talking of underwear is distasteful to say the least.
> *He could have addressed, with civility and professionalism, everything he stated without having a tantrum and a hissy fit like he did.*
> 
> I don't have a clue as to what he is or how he trains but, going by his rant, I
> would not want him in a stressful situation around any horse.


I agree with the bolded. 

However, I just had a conversation with my husband, and he loved the statement. He said it was genuine, and that CA's selling point that he was a cowboy, and thus being crude is part of the package. (Husband knows nothing about CA or his method, or even about horses.)

Personally, I really didn't like the tone. It is not like he has no venues for ranting. He can rant all he wants. But this piece of writing is called a "statement." He doesn't start it with his condolences about an unfortunate accident. He starts with "it is none of your business." :shock:

For the record, I'm actually growing to be a NH person, so I have nothing against Clinton or his methods. Unfortunately, I'm appalled with his distasteful and unprofessional statement, that's all.


----------



## horselessmom

Maple said:


> As he stated, he's a human. The response in my opinion, is easily one that any normal person could have responded with. I have nothing wrong with somebody who doesn't beat around the bush, I have more time for those who say what they feel than those who tip toe around things. Just my opinion, maybe I'm wrong or looking at things the wrong way, but that is just the way I see it.


He's human, but there are different venues for different types of writing and expression. He didn't have to tiptoe around things, he could've said the same thing, in a very straightforward manner, without sounding immature and ****y. I might take a little challenge and rewrite his statement for fun. Let's see if I can sound straightforward, but at least slightly more mature. :lol:


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Taffy Clayton said:


> Funny, I have lost any respect for him with his seriously childish statement.
> He is a professional and he should act like a professional. All of his cussing and talking of underwear is distasteful to say the least.
> He could have addressed, with civility and professionalism, everything he stated without having a tantrum and a hissy fit like he did.
> 
> I don't have a clue as to what he is or how he trains but, going by his rant, I
> would not want him in a stressful situation around any horse.


If you watch CA, he doesn't put up with BS from owners or horses. He's not afraid to say exactly what needs to be said to the owners to get the point across or to get them to understand, even if it means not being particularly "nice." That's one of the things I really like about him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## franknbeans

^^ Exactly. I find it a bit refreshing. No BS, what you see is what you get, and thereare no "games" with horses or people.


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## stevenson

HAH.. panties in a wad, and yes horses can get their panties in a wad!! IFyou get that offended , then seriously consider getting out of horses, as those are some very Mild Statements ! An old trainer I knew use to say Slap the *****..
or SOB depending if you were on a mare or gelding.. 
LOTS of trainers kill horses.. we lost a mare to a local trainer, diff story from the trainer than from his worker, and this jerkoff trains cutting and reining horses.. and If people i know ask me about him I tell them..


----------



## Annanoel

^^ Couldn't agree more with both of you. Horses are not small little dogs, you can't spoil them end of story. He told that to an owner at a clinic I watched online. It's true, and the BS doesn't cut it in the horse world. He got to where he is because he gets results through his training (not that I approve of everything) and doesn't sugar coat anything for the owners.


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## franknbeans

stevenson said:


> HAH.. panties in a wad, and yes horses can get their panties in a wad!! IFyou get that offended , then seriously consider getting out of horses, as those are some very Mild Statements ! An old trainer I knew use to say Slap the *****..
> or SOB depending if you were on a mare or gelding..
> *LOTS of trainers kill horses*.. we lost a mare to a local trainer, diff story from the trainer than from his worker, and this jerkoff trains cutting and reining horses.. and If people i know ask me about him I tell them..


Sorry I do NOT agree the with the bolded. I think it is a gross exaggeration. Perhaps SOME, but not "LOTS". And if you wanted the truth, you, too should have gotten a necropsy. Period. Otherwise you cannot blame the trainer.


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## horselessmom

I would've liked a statement like this:

_I’d like to start by once again offering my heartfelt condolences to the owner of the horse. I’ve lost animals myself, and I know what kind of emotional havoc a death of one’s partner can cause. Animals do die, but even if we are all aware of this simple fact, it is never an easy thing. 

Since an autopsy was declined by the owner, we won’t know why the horse died, but we believe it had something to do with either a brain aneurism or a heart attack because it died extremely quickly and there was no struggling involved. 

We sent the owner flowers and we refunded all of the owner's money. I offered the owner a Signature Horse free of charge, and the opportunity to send another horse to the ranch for the six-week program and we'd train it free of charge. I believe I’ve done everything I could under these unfortunate circumstances. 

We do everything in our power to take great care of animals on our ranch. I’m saddened by the multitude of posts that insinuate otherwise. 

Life if fragile and precious. It is only too easy to get overly involved in an internet drama, but instead, go out and spend time with your horses, enjoy your time with them, and try, just like your horse, to live in the moment and appreciate the beauty of it. 

Sincerely,
CA
_

But I might be in the minority here.


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## horsecrazygirl

Woah, that was a awesome statement. I really have nothing to add except that the owner doesn't sound so concerned about her horses death. I mean if i was in her place i would have a done autopsy-necropsy right away. No questions asked. Yes the horse is dead, but its worth knowing how and why. He also offered to pay for it. I really don't see why she wouldn't. To me it kinda sounds like she just wants drama. But thats just MHO.


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## Saddlebag

He couldn't order the necropsy as the vet won't touch it if it's not his horse.The owner has to authorize this. It seems she wasn't about to.


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## Chevaux

Nice revisions, horselessmom - you would do well as a professional speech writer.


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## franknbeans

horselessmom said:


> I would've liked a statement like this:
> 
> _I’d like to start by once again offering my heartfelt condolences to the owner of the horse. I’ve lost animals myself, and I know what kind of emotional havoc a death of one’s partner can cause. Animals do die, but even if we are all aware of this simple fact, it is never an easy thing.
> 
> Since an autopsy was declined by the owner, we won’t know why the horse died, but we believe it had something to do with either a brain aneurism or a heart attack because it died extremely quickly and there was no struggling involved.
> 
> We sent the owner flowers and we refunded all of the owner's money. I offered the owner a Signature Horse free of charge, and the opportunity to send another horse to the ranch for the six-week program and we'd train it free of charge. I believe I’ve done everything I could under these unfortunate circumstances.
> 
> We do everything in our power to take great care of animals on our ranch. I’m saddened by the multitude of posts that insinuate otherwise.
> 
> Life if fragile and precious. It is only too easy to get overly involved in an internet drama, but instead, go out and spend time with your horses, enjoy your time with them, and try, just like your horse, to live in the moment and appreciate the beauty of it.
> 
> Sincerely,
> CA
> _
> 
> But I might be in the minority here.


Most likely. If CA wanted it said like this, this is how he would have said it. He doesn't need anyone editing his statement. Period. He was up front and blatantly clear. Not all flowery and lovely. Easy to understand his, IMO. Clear? yeah. Crystal.


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## Phly

All I care to add is, atta boy Clinton.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Annanoel

I do see where you're coming from Horseless -- that IS a better statement and much more professional. It definitley would save him some reputation points for the language and being so abrasive.

For him though, the statement he gave is himself. He tells it like it is and always has, I doubt him talking like that will cause much of a stir. He is human and reacted the way he did for obvious reasons. While the cussing probably could have been left out, that's how I expected him to respond after hearing / seeing him in person, and hearing from members of his "club."


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## Clayton Taffy

Horselessmom, your statement sounds like it came from a professional.
Short, to the point, no mincing words, no BS, no games.


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## horselessmom

Chevaux said:


> Nice revisions, horselessmom - you would do well as a professional speech writer.


:lol: thanks!


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## churumbeque

horselessmom said:


> I would've liked a statement like this:
> 
> _I’d like to start by once again offering my heartfelt condolences to the owner of the horse. I’ve lost animals myself, and I know what kind of emotional havoc a death of one’s partner can cause. Animals do die, but even if we are all aware of this simple fact, it is never an easy thing.
> 
> Since an autopsy was declined by the owner, we won’t know why the horse died, but we believe it had something to do with either a brain aneurism or a heart attack because it died extremely quickly and there was no struggling involved.
> 
> We sent the owner flowers and we refunded all of the owner's money. I offered the owner a Signature Horse free of charge, and the opportunity to send another horse to the ranch for the six-week program and we'd train it free of charge. I believe I’ve done everything I could under these unfortunate circumstances.
> 
> We do everything in our power to take great care of animals on our ranch. I’m saddened by the multitude of posts that insinuate otherwise.
> 
> Life if fragile and precious. It is only too easy to get overly involved in an internet drama, but instead, go out and spend time with your horses, enjoy your time with them, and try, just like your horse, to live in the moment and appreciate the beauty of it.
> 
> Sincerely,
> CA
> _
> 
> But I might be in the minority here.


Send it to him and maybe you could become his publicist. I agree with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palomine

Downunder Horsemanship | Statement from Clinton regarding Academy Horse incident

THIS is what he wrote concerning this and it did happen. He admits it, you can go to his site and read it yourself.


*Statement from Clinton regarding Academy Horse incident*

by Clinton Anderson 28. March 2013 11:27 
First of all, this is nobody's business other than mine and the horse's owner. If people would pay more attention to their own lives, their own horses and their own problems, the world would be a much better place. But there are too many looky-lous and sticky beaks that want to stick their nose in and stir up trouble when there's no trouble to be stirred up. 

#1 People need to get a grip on themselves. Animals die. Humans die. It's called life. In fact, there's this bumper sticker that was invented that says "s*** happens." People put it on the back of their bumpers because that's what happens in life. It's called s*** and it happens. Sometimes it's somebody's fault, but a lot of times it's nobody's fault. Again, it's referred to as s*** happens. 

#2 It's unfortunate that the horse died. Reality is we don't know how he died because the owner didn't want to get an autopsy. Horses die at my ranch. Yes, it's called life. We have 60 horses on the ranch, we have dogs and we even have cats. In fact, we had a cat fight in the barn last week, and one of them died. Shocking, yes. It's called life. Animals die. Yes, even Clinton Anderson's animals die. It's called life. I know this is shocking to know that as good as I am and as popular as I am and as famous as I am, my animals don't live forever either. Holy s*** , I must be human. For any moron that's getting his panties in a wad because a horse died at Clinton Anderson's ranch, get a life. 

#3 It's unfortunate that the owner had to go and start this whole fire because I'm the one that has to go put it out. I've apologized to the owner; it's not my fault the horse died. It's not the owner's fault the horse died either. We don't know how it died. We believe it had something to do with either a brain aneurism or a heart attack because it died extremely quickly and there was no struggling involved. Reality is it was the owner's choice not to get an autopsy - she didn't want to get one. 

I apologized to the owner; in fact, I've spoken with her on three separate occasions about this subject. We sent the owner flowers and we refunded all of the owner's money. I did everything I possibly could. In fact, I even offered the owner a Signature Horse free of charge. I went above and beyond to try to help her through the grieving process. A Signature Horse, with all its training, is worth $25,000. She declined the Signature Horse because she said the horse was too small. I had a horse picked out for her that was 14.1 hands high, and she didn't feel like a horse 14.1 hands high was worth having even though it was free and is worth $25,000. Just for the record, the lady is 5'9" and I'm 5'11", Mindy is 14.1. I rode Mindy in front of millions of people for 15 years and never had one email or comment that said I looked too big on Mindy. Just to set the record straight. But she didn't want the Signature Horse - no problem whatsoever. Since she didn't want the Signature Horse, I offered her the opportunity to send another horse to the ranch for the six-week program and we'd train it free of charge. Again, I went above and beyond to take care of a grieving customer. 

I bent over backwards to take care of her needs, and now I'm having to fix this kind of bulls*** and I'm tired of it. So reality is if you think your horse is going to live forever, you're an idiot. Do we do everything in our power to take care of animals on the ranch? Yes, we do. The reality is every once in a while it keeps coming back to that bumper sticker "s*** happens." So people, get a life, get out of business that doesn't involve you and start focusing on your horsemanship and your own lives. When people start doing that, they'll have a lot more success with their horses, a lot more fun and a lot less drama. If it sounds like I'm irritated and I'm cranky about this, I am. All we've done is taken an unfortunate situation and turned it into circus and absolute mess. It didn't have to go this direction. This is my statement and this whole subject is done after this.


Currently rated 4.3 by 19 people


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## farmpony84

I read the first three pages and then the statement from CA. I'm with him, it happens. It sucks, but it happens and to be honest, I have a feeling if the owner thought he was at fault, truly though it, then they would have tried to prove it. But instead they just showed their crazy. That's my 2 cents...


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## AnrewPL

The horse owner is a complete moron. I thought the military stopped using horses in anything but ceremonial roles over 50 years ago; why the hell would you need to send one to a “book camp”? (yes; I am being sarcastic I realise its not a real military boot camp). The whole concept is idiotic. The moron owner should have been sent to a horse riding “boot camp” to learn not to be a moron, spoil their horse, and turn it into an arrogant tool that needs to get “over the trauma of having people injured... [by his bucking]” MORON. Now excuse me while I go and vomit. Trauma from bucking people off? What a moron. 


All the same, If I was in CA's position, with a lot to loose from bad press, even if on FB, especially from what I suspect to be a complete moron horse owner, I would have forked out the money for the vet to figure out a cause of death, surely it would have been small change for someone pulling in the money he would be. 


Just a note on hobbling the horse's face to a foot. I have never seen it in Australia, but the Bedouin I lived with, and others across the middle east, typically hobble their horses head to their feet. If they hobble them to the front they will take their lead-rope and tie it around a knee then tie that to the other knee, and leave a little room for the horse to lift its head, so they don’t tie their face down tight to their legs. If its to the back leg they typically tie the lead rope around a back pastern and leave the horse enough slack to move about without too much restriction. Whether or not CA was doing that? Who knows.


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## Palomine

Muppetgirl said:


> So.....this horse was tied out low to graze? Does that mean it was staked in the ground and given a length of rope to hang itself on? That's my understanding????



Old school method would be horse had head tied to front leg.

Stupid.


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## franknbeans

Agree with much of what you say, Anrew, but not getting the necropsy was NOT a matter of $$. Again-it was the owners choice. CA had no say in the matter. Not his horse=not his decision.


----------



## Muppetgirl

I still want to know what 'tied low and turned out to graze' means......we've established that CA probably could've held back a little on the down under thunder , we've established that the owner is a little kooky......I want to know what 'tied low and turned out to graze means'......:shock:


----------



## franknbeans

Haha maybe like I just saw in Kenya-a loose rope around the neck and a stake in the ground. On maybe one donkey or cow in a group. ;-0


----------



## AnrewPL

Sure, he couldn't do it without her approval, however I got the impression from what she supposedly said that she decided not to have it done because she didn’t want to spend money on a dead horse. I would have offered to pay for it up front had I been CA, after that if she didn't want it done, knowing that it wouldn’t cost her a cent, than its back on her.


----------



## stevenson

he was very honest and admitted the horse died, states some horses die. 
Again, my statement someone put into bold type.. lots of horses are killed ..
or DIE while at a trainers. and I still believe many of them are killed at the trainers, it may be an accident , but then again , if you tie a horse hard and tight, and dont supervise it, you the trainer are at fault.


----------



## horselessmom

churumbeque said:


> Send it to him and maybe you could become his publicist. I agree with you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I believe that if he wanted to appear professional, he could've managed to write a professional statement. He obviously wrote his when he was ****ed, and he obviously feels he doesn't need to restrain himself. 

While I agree that his piece of writing is genuine and is all "Clinton," I don't agree that it works well as a statement. 

He made his choice, and many people like his choice. That's fine. All I'm saying that a little bit more class wouldn't have hurt him.


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## gypsygirl

i thought it was a great statement. bold and to the point and something that anyone, even a nonhorse person, could understand. i have a lot of respect for CA, not everyone would give away a $25K horse for something that just happened.


----------



## churumbeque

stevenson said:


> he was very honest and admitted the horse died, states some horses die.
> Again, my statement someone put into bold type.. lots of horses are killed ..
> or DIE while at a trainers. and I still believe many of them are killed at the trainers, it may be an accident , but then again , if you tie a horse hard and tight, and dont supervise it, you the trainer are at fault.


How could he not admit the horse died? Get a look alike and pass it off as the original horse? I still want to know the purpose of tying the horse low and leave it unsupervised accomplishes?


----------



## churumbeque

gypsygirl said:


> i thought it was a great statement. bold and to the point and something that anyone, even a nonhorse person, could understand. i have a lot of respect for CA, not everyone would give away a $25K horse for something that just happened.


 My bet is the 25K is over inflated. It was a nice jesture but if the horse is worth that then sell it and give her 25K.


----------



## MsBHavin

It leads me to wonder how many fruit loops he's had contacting him from 'her side' he's probably over the top angry at crap accusations. I know I would be, especially if they're over the top rabid followers of NH.


----------



## Palomine

It WAS his responsibility as a "world famous trainer" to insist on necropsy which, judging by how owner seems, would have been easy sell, and he should have paid for it, after reading the statement I put up of his?

I imagine he DID NOT want horse to be examined. And may not have because others in area know this is frequent occurrence there. One more might have raised questions.

This is not a statement from an innocent man, this is a statement from someone who is arrogant, and a smart *** to boot.

And like it or not...the impression he gives is "lovey dovey kiss your horsey" much more than it is "MAKE the horse DO what you WANT no matter what it takes."

He does not advocate getting tough with horses in this manner.

I hope the lid comes off him, like it did Cleve Wells and Shirley Roth.

Owner said on farm's FB page:

*Dear All,
Clinton called and asked me to please stop mourning for my horse on facebook. And I will honor his wishes. 10,000 nosey noodles contacted him.
No more shares or comments please. Thank you.


*


----------



## MsBHavin

Palomine said:


> It WAS his responsibility as a "world famous trainer" to insist on necropsy which, judging by how owner seems, would have been easy sell, and he should have paid for it, after reading the statement I put up of his?
> 
> I imagine he DID NOT want horse to be examined. And may not have because others in area know this is frequent occurrence there. One more might have raised questions.
> 
> This is not a statement from an innocent man, this is a statement from someone who is arrogant, and a smart *** to boot.
> 
> And like it or not...the impression he gives is "lovey dovey kiss your horsey" much more than it is "MAKE the horse DO what you WANT no matter what it takes."
> 
> He does not advocate getting tough with horses in this manner.
> 
> I hope the lid comes off him, like it did Cleve Wells and Shirley Roth.
> 
> Owner said on farm's FB page:
> 
> *Dear All,
> Clinton called and asked me to please stop mourning for my horse on facebook. And I will honor his wishes. 10,000 nosey noodles contacted him.
> No more shares or comments please. Thank you.
> 
> 
> *


I posted from her fb directly she did NOT want an autopsy. Does that still make him guilty in your eyes?

And really?? She's spouting off on FB and all sorts of locations how he's 'killed multiple horses' you don't think he has a right to ask her to STOP posting it? I have no doubt he told her to stop letting people contact him, but i highly doubt he told her to stop mourning. Thats just stupid.


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## churumbeque

horselessmom said:


> I believe that if he wanted to appear professional, he could've managed to write a professional statement. He obviously wrote his when he was ****ed, and he obviously feels he doesn't need to restrain himself.
> 
> While I agree that his piece of writing is genuine and is all "Clinton," I don't agree that it works well as a statement.
> 
> He made his choice, and many people like his choice. That's fine. All I'm saying that a little bit more class wouldn't have hurt him.


I was agreeing with you and liked your statement and I think he needs a publicist for real.


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## franknbeans

churumbeque said:


> My bet is the 25K is over inflated. It was a nice jesture but if the horse is worth that then sell it and give her 25K.


He offered her one of the horses he has raised and trained. $25K is probably pretty accurate, IMO-especially if it is one of his reining bred ones. $25K is not a lot for one of those, trained by him. Many times more than what I would spend on a horse, but some do.


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## Muppetgirl

Muppetgirl said:


> I still want to know what 'tied low and turned out to graze' means......we've established that CA probably could've held back a little on the down under thunder , we've established that the owner is a little kooky......I want to know what 'tied low and turned out to graze means'......:shock:


Haha anyone? There's so many ways to tie a horse up.....I want t now how he had this horse tied....someone suggested head tied to foot......really? What does that achieve???? :shock:


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## horselessmom

churumbeque said:


> I was agreeing with you and liked your statement and I think he needs a publicist for real.


I definitely think he'd benefit from one. :wink:


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## churumbeque

One of the things that has stuck with me in this post is that the horse was a Friesian.
Why would you send a Friesian to CA? When did this happen? Tying a black horse out in the sun could have killed it. They do not have strong hearts or stamina and they do not do well in the heat. They also bond with 1 person and training could have been very stressful for it. I think in this type of training scenerio they should not be left unattended. I am sure he has many interns or help that could over see the horse.


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## Honeysuga

I think where as yes the owner sounds like your run of the mill dingbat horse owner, the horse dying at "horsey boot camp" sounds fishy to me. It sounds to me like the horse died as a result of brute force cowboy training methods. 
I have seen clinton on tv and even when watched he gets a little rough, i cant imagine what happens behind closed doors at a facility that claims to turn around problem horses.
Im not a ca hater, ive watched him for years. Simply stating my observations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wausuaw

I had a horse die under my care. Owner- less than happy (to say the least). It caused ALOT of drama for me with things she had said (with absolutely no complaints previously in his care or treatment, and I check in regularly with anyone im working with to give them opportunity for complaints or any other thoughts) She DID have a vet out to investigate. The horse, though otherwise seemingly healthy, had a defect in its heart that wasn't outright noticeable. Nothing she, I or anyone else could have done about it. I dont have $25,000 dollar horses (short tall or otherwise) to offer her, but I did try my best to fix the situation. But, things got very nasty, very quickly on her part (and I cant say I was 100% polite when she started getting ugly, even though I DID sympathize with her). I also knew someone whose 6 month old filly snap it's own neck and still doesn't know how. I have had a horse die from mysterious reasons, though by no means quick. So, I can see where he's coming from. 

As CA said, sometimes s*** happens. If she was incredibly concerned, she would have gotten the necropsy done. If she has the ability to send her horse to CA, I doubt she's lacking much in the finance department, even if he didn't offer to pay for it (which I don't see where he explicitly offered to). 

Folks are not given enough information to judge the situation. (And, just as a side note, putting your horse on a diet is NOT enough to get them in shape, though, on the flip side, I would say almost 100% of the horses I've worked with were not in good physical shape to begin with, and it was part of my duty to not push their physical capabilities to the point of harming them)

I can see where people could use his training methods abusively. I don't see him as being abusive, and I doubt he'd put up with students who were. He is abrasive, yes. Rude? Most definitely. But, that doesn't make him evil or abusive I don't think. 

Would I send my horse to the academy program? Most definitely not. Mostly because I'm a control freak. If I send a horse to a trainer, it would be where I could go to them at any point I desired, for whatever reason I desired (and I'm not so sure about that) regardless of how effective or how famous they are. 

And, if I had ANY concerns whatsoever to begin with, I would have never sent them off. If I thought, for any reason, they were AT ALL responsible for the death of my horse, I would have investigated it further. If other people assumed it was mistreatment, I would have made sure to make people aware that it wasn't if I thought so.

It's just a lot of mudslinging with too many unknowns. Could have been anything (including but not limited to neglect or illness). Simply no way to tell.


----------



## MsBHavin

The most interesting part was she has plenty of pictures of her riding him. He looks calm and not the problem horse she describes.


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## horselessmom

churumbeque said:


> One of the things that has stuck with me in this post is that the horse was a Friesian.
> Why would you send a Friesian to CA? When did this happen? Tying a black horse out in the sun could have killed it. They do not have strong hearts or stamina and they do not do well in the heat. They also bond with 1 person and training could have been very stressful for it. I think in this type of training scenerio they should not be left unattended. I am sure he has many interns or help that could over see the horse.


That's interesting. 

Another thing that hasn't been really addressed here is the type of tie down the horse was in, and whether it should've been supervised in that tie.


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## MsBHavin

Did CA state anywhere the horse was tied? Or is that simply what the owner said and everyone went from there?


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## wyominggrandma

As my very wise grandma used to say" side A, side B and the real truth which nobody ever hears.

As far as the necropsy, CA COULD not ask a vet to do it. The owner HAS to give the okay, if , as in this instance the animal is not close by, they have to fax the information and okay to the vet. To not have the owners permission is a cause for lawsuit for both the vet and the trainer who said it do it.

I have no feelings one way or the other for CA or any of the trainers, but this is my opinion: 
I can understand how some feel CA's letter was harsh, but if we are reading on here what the woman has posted and her facebook and stuff, it has to make you wonder just what vendetta she has started against CA, and maybe he was just tired of it. One person can ruin anyones reputation and and it sounds like this owner is stating lots of truths and untruths depending on where it is being read. I questioned her post about making the horse hungry before it left? Strange, most folks feed in the trailer for a ride. She also posted how dangerous this horse had become bucking people off, etc. 
I do wonder if this had been her "local" trainer or friend of the family, or someone other than a big name trainer, would she be posting all this stuff? It seems as if CA offered her a horse to replace the lost one.Sounds like she likes BIG tough horses, maybe what she needs is a small horse that is trained that she can control.
It is sad the horse died. Accidents happen all the time to any animals. One minute they are fine and appear healthy, the next minute they are dead...


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## gypsygirl

i just looked at her FB page...she looks like kind of a crazy person...


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## horselessmom

MsBHavin said:


> Did CA state anywhere the horse was tied? Or is that simply what the owner said and everyone went from there?


This would be a big thing to mention in his "statement", one way or another. He had an opportunity to present this version of the events. If she is insinuating that the horse was tied, and the horse wasn't, he needs to address this.


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## churumbeque

gypsygirl said:


> i just looked at her FB page...she looks like kind of a crazy person...


I looked at her FB page and saw lots of beautiful well trained horses and good riders. I think the fairy stuff is a mystical gimic for promoting the beautiful horses they have.


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## MsBHavin

horselessmom said:


> This would be a big thing to mention in his "statement", one way or another. He had an opportunity to present this version of the events. If she is insinuating that the horse was tied, and the horse wasn't, he needs to address this.



But at this point in time, he might know she's saying he killed the horse but not what is actually being said. You know the game telephone? Just one tiny thing off in every version presented.


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## Muppetgirl

horselessmom said:


> This would be a big thing to mention in his "statement", one way or another. He had an opportunity to present this version of the events. If she is insinuating that the horse was tied, and the horse wasn't, he needs to address this.


Yes! I'm as curious as a can be! I wish he'd make a statement as to what the horse was doing at the time of the incident. 

Kind of reminds me of this case:

Olympian Cesar Parra Escapes Prosecution for Horse Abuse | Rate My Horse PRO


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## gypsygirl

churumbeque said:


> I looked at her FB page and saw lots of beautiful well trained horses and good riders. I think the fairy stuff is a mystical gimic for promoting the beautiful horses they have.


*Fairy Knob Farm is a breeding facility for fairytale horses*

this really does not seem professional and is really off putting to me. and this is the first thing she writes about her farm...honestly, how can you take that seriously ?


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## horselessmom

MsBHavin said:


> But at this point in time, he might know she's saying he killed the horse but not what is actually being said. You know the game telephone? Just one tiny thing off in every version presented.


She actually said that she is sure there was no negligence involved.

If he is not sure what's being said, he shouldn't really finish his "statement" with "over and done." 

And in any event, even if he doesn't know what the owner is insinuating, it would be open for him to present his version of the events. He must know that people would be wondering. Otherwise he appears as though he has something to hide.


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## churumbeque

gypsygirl said:


> *Fairy Knob Farm is a breeding facility for fairytale horses*
> 
> this really does not seem professional and is really off putting to me. and this is the first thing she writes about her farm...honestly, how can you take that seriously ?


It looks like a marketing tool to me. I don't take it seriously so it didn't effect me the way it did you.


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## churumbeque

horselessmom said:


> She actually said that she is sure there was no negligence involved.
> 
> If he is not sure what's being said, he shouldn't really finish his "statement" with "over and done."
> 
> And in any event, even if he doesn't know what the owner is insinuating, it would be open for him to present his version of the events. He must know that people would be wondering. Otherwise he appears as though he has something to hide.


 I really didn't see her say anything disparaging on her FB page either. She just posted the He called her and told to to quit greiving on FB or something to that effect because 10,000 people had called him.


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## MsBHavin

She stated somewhere on one of the pictures that he was on tour and wasn't even at the ranch when it happened. So i think it's fair that he doesn't post what he didn't witness.

I also did a little googling, and another forum someone stated that 90% of the friesian pictures are not of her horses, pro pictures of well known horses. Does anyone know more about that?


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## Palomine

Muppetgirl said:


> I still want to know what 'tied low and turned out to graze' means......we've established that CA probably could've held back a little on the down under thunder , we've established that the owner is a little kooky......I want to know what 'tied low and turned out to graze means'......:shock:[/QUOTE
> 
> If it is what old timers use?
> 
> Head is tied down to front leg, horse can not raise head up any higher than if it is grazing.


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## Palomine

And more than likely he threatened owner too, with being sued.


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## gypsygirl

i fail to see how that makes her any less ridiculous !


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## horselessmom

churumbeque said:


> It looks like a marketing tool to me. I don't take it seriously so it didn't effect me the way it did you.


I agree with the above.

After reading here about her FB page, I expected to see something really crazy. I didn't see anything "out there" on her page. It seems like she's a creative person, into gardening and writing, and she uses the word "magic" and "faeries" throughout, but not in any crazy way. 

She's also expressed herself well and without flames on FB. (I haven't seen her other posts on other forums that have been mentioned.)

It could be that Clinton's "statement" was directed to the multitude of discussions, not towards her in particular.


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## nvr2many

Did I miss a link to her FB page somewhere??


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## horselessmom

gypsygirl said:


> i fail to see how that makes her any less ridiculous !


Is your judgement based on the fairy design and slogan or because of what she says about her horses? 

From a non-horsey perspective, there's nothing ridiculous on her FB. But I'm not horsey enough to judge the horsey parts.


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## churumbeque

MsBHavin said:


> She stated somewhere on one of the pictures that he was on tour and wasn't even at the ranch when it happened. So i think it's fair that he doesn't post what he didn't witness.
> 
> I also did a little googling, and another forum someone stated that 90% of the friesian pictures are not of her horses, pro pictures of well known horses. Does anyone know more about that?


 If you go to her personal web sight it is normal looking horses not the fancy ones on the FB [page so I am guessing those are friends horses.


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## Iseul

Personally, I didn't see anything on her facebook that was really..wrong. She never blamed CA, nothing. She seems to be a very spiritual individual with her reference to her dreams with Pharoah in them. Nothing wrong with that, it is her facebook.

In my opinion, if CA truely did ask her to stop mourning of facebooFacebook, he's in the wrong. It's not her that's harassing him, it's those who believe CA's in the wrong because they didn't even actually read what this poor lady typed and went after him.

And while his statement couldve been much more professional..what I gather of what happened with Owner, CA, and others, I can sympathise with how he feels and I personally love it. Not professional, but he is a cowboy, isn't he?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horselessmom

nvr2many said:


> Did I miss a link to her FB page somewhere??


If you google "Fairy Knob Farm breeders of fairytale horses" it will come up.


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## churumbeque

gypsygirl said:


> i fail to see how that makes her any less ridiculous !


Some could judge you by your name Gypsy Girl and think that is ridiculous!


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## gypsygirl

but i am not claiming to be a professional with a business, so its really apples and oranges =]


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## apachiedragon

She also stated that CA's people told her it could run her as much as $3000 for the necropsy. With no offer to pay for it. It sounded to me as though they were trying to discourage her from having it done. And his "generous" offer to give her a 14hh QH to replace a 16+hh Friesian? I would have turned that down too. Apples to oranges. That horse was probably worth quite a chunk regardless of training. And my guess is he knew she would turn it down as well.


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## horselessmom

gypsygirl said:


> but i am not claiming to be a professional with a business, so its really apples and oranges =]


Well, if we start comparing professionalism, any picture of a fairy used in a writer's / gardener's / horse breeder's website, is much more professional than CA's "statement." :wink:


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## MsBHavin

apachiedragon said:


> She also stated that CA's people told her it could run her as much as $3000 for the necropsy. With no offer to pay for it.


Then she's just as much at fault for not finding a neutral vet to call and price options. For all we know, the $3000 is including the cost for transporting the dead horse to a good place to do an autopsy, and disposal.


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## gypsygirl

apachiedragon said:


> She also stated that CA's people told her it could run her as much as $3000 for the necropsy. With no offer to pay for it. It sounded to me as though they were trying to discourage her from having it done. And his "generous" offer to give her a 14hh QH to replace a 16+hh Friesian? I would have turned that down too. Apples to oranges. That horse was probably worth quite a chunk regardless of training. And my guess is he knew she would turn it down as well.


just because you dont like qhs, doesnt mean that the offer wasnt genuine. just pointing out that not everyone thinks friesians are better than qhs..


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## horselessmom

MsBHavin said:


> Then she's just as much at fault for not finding a neutral vet to call and price options. For all we know, the $3000 is including the cost for transporting the dead horse to a good place to do an autopsy, and disposal.


This is all speculation, as we don't know how this communication went. 

However, my horse died suddenly at a training facility, I'd be shocked and grieving, and maybe not 100% sharp on every issue. 

Conversely, if I was running a horse training facility and a client's horse died, I'd make sure I walk the client through all the procedures, and take into account that the client could be in shock. 

She says on her FB, right after the horse died, that they didn't want to do investigate any further, because they are not planning to sue the facility, and they don't think there was any negligence involved. So suddenly who is not suing (for once!) is somehow at fault?


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## franknbeans

horselessmom said:


> Well, if we start comparing professionalism, any picture of a fairy used in a writer's / gardener's / horse breeder's website, is much more professional than CA's "statement." :wink:


Sorry, horseless one-I have to disagree. I could NEVER see anyone with all that fluffy stuff on their farm page as a respectable horse person, any more that I could respect a counselor I net once who told me to call her "Muffy". As a HORSEPERSON (which Is, I believe what we are discussing, right?) I would take his point of view any day. She portrays an image of butterfly farts and unicorns which I do not buy into when it pertains to 1200 kb animals that can hurt you when coddled. For the non-horseperson, it may be totally different, and fine to see all the fluff if you don't know any better. I do not consider fairies any more professional than CA. JMHO. I think she seems a bit "out there". Sorry, but I find it interesting when you state what you would do running a training facility when you cannot even figure out what the trainer is teaching your daughter.

We also have no evidence that CA threatened anyone with anything, so that is total heresay.


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## horselessmom

franknbeans said:


> Sorry, horseless one-I have to disagree. I could NEVER see anyone with all that fluffy stuff on their farm page as a respectable horse person, any more that I could respect a counselor I net once who told me to call her "Muffy". As a HORSEPERSON (which Is, I believe what we are discussing, right?) I would take his point of view any day. She portrays an image of butterfly farts and unicorns which I do not buy into when it pertains to 1200 kb animals that can hurt you when coddled. For the non-horseperson, it may be totally different, and fine to see all the fluff if you don't know any better. I do not consider fairies any more professional than CA. JMHO. I think she seems a bit "out there".
> 
> We also have no evidence that CA threatened anyone with anything, so that is total heresay.



It seems strange to me to judge one's horsemanship based on one's FB design. I don't even see her site as "fluff." It is artistic. Different perceptions, I guess.


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## franknbeans

horselessmom said:


> It seems strange to me to judge one's horsemanship based on one's FB design. I don't even see her site as "fluff." It is artistic. Different perceptions, I guess.


Perhaps you are not viewing it as a horse person.:wink: There is a time and place for "artistic". jmho


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## apachiedragon

gypsygirl said:


> just because you dont like qhs, doesnt mean that the offer wasnt genuine. just pointing out that not everyone thinks friesians are better than qhs..


Actually, I like QH's very much, since that happens to be what I own. I'm just saying that the two breeds aren't comparable, and looking at her site, it is fairly obvious she would have no use for one. To compare the two is laughable.


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## AnrewPL

Yep, given what she seems to have written about the horse feeling trauma about injuring people when it bucked, combined with all the fairy nonsense, I'd be willing to bet if she is breeding horses she is turning out one spoilt brat after another. Yet, that's neither here nor there as far as her horse dyeing in the care of CA, or his staff at least.


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## franknbeans

apachiedragon said:


> Actually, I like QH's very much, since that happens to be what I own. I'm just saying that the two breeds aren't comparable, and looking at her site, it is fairly obvious she would have no use for one. To compare the two is laughable.


But she sure could sell it and buy another pretty fairy horse, huh?


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## Clayton Taffy

franknbeans said:


> Sorry, but I find it interesting when you state what you would do running a training facility when you cannot even figure out what the trainer is teaching your daughter.


Absolutely Uncalled for! 

I am just speechless.


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## wausuaw

CA's signature horses are sold for 25,000$ and are generally 14h to 15h on average, all quarter horses, and are picked for temperament and conformation. Some horses are dropped from the program if they don't "live up" to standards. This is the only way to get a horse trained specifically by Clint. 

The academy horse program- horses put into this 6 week program are trained by his TRAINEES, more or less (not newbies, but people who have been in his "academy" and successfully demonstrated the ability to "apply" his method on various horses) he does not train the horses in this program. He interviews applicants to see if they and their horse is a "fit", to which he says he tries to scare them off, and has turned down several applicants who he thought he'd probably, more or less, **** off. He spends a fair amount of time training signature horses, doing company crap, his horses, videos, blah blah blah. The cost to send a horse to his academy is a minimum of $4,714 (though may be more if your horse takes longer). 

This is paraphrased, but is information readily accessible thru his website. 

So far as people saying a lot of horses have died.... I haven't found anything derogatory or suspecius about the horses there? If someone has that information, please do bring to light. I know some people find his methods harsh (I don't personally, applied correctly, but I don't know all) but I have yet to find anything that states there are tons of horses dying thru his program, or anything particularly bad in general.

The statement seemed as though it was not directed toward the owner. Seems like it was a general statement to the people that were attacking him for it. I don't think the owner thought he did something wrong (sorry if my previous post implied that, I just meant that anything suspicious would have been more thoroughly investigated, and if I had suspicions I would not have sent my horse there)

I may seem obsessive but I'm supposed to be going there in the fall, so I have been doing lots and lots and lots of research these last few weeks so I know what I'm walking into. I'm not a CA guru (though I have now begun to research his method and see how it works), I just think all this bad mouthing and jumping to conclusions is not warranted.


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## MsBHavin

AnrewPL said:


> Yep, given what she seems to have written about the horse feeling trauma about injuring people when it bucked, combined with all the fairy nonsense, I'd be willing to bet if she is breeding horses she is turning out one spoilt brat after another. Yet, that's neither here nor there as far as her horse dyeing in the care of CA, or his staff at least.


I see pictures of foals but I'm not sure what shes breeding. Certainly not the friesian, she said he's a gelding. Yet a picture posted on her fb (of a stallion no less) is being passed off as the dead horse. I'm all for posting pictures of pretty horses on fb, but when you/people on your page are claiming that is the dead horse, that is where I have an issue.


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## updownrider

stevenson said:


> LOTS of trainers kill horses


BAD trainers kill horses, not LOTS. 

CA's statment was highly unprofessional and uncaring.


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## MsBHavin

Wausuaw- I would like more information once you arrive! I think it sounds neat, and I know nothing about CA


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## AnrewPL

MsBHavin said:


> I see pictures of foals but I'm not sure what shes breeding. Certainly not the friesian, she said he's a gelding. Yet a picture posted on her fb (of a stallion no less) is being passed off as the dead horse. I'm all for posting pictures of pretty horses on fb, but when you/people on your page are claiming that is the dead horse, that is where I have an issue.


 

Could be wrong, but it seems to me she is breeding them.

fairyknobfarm.com - Breeders of fairytale horses


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## horselessmom

Originally Posted by franknbeans: 



> Sorry, but I find it interesting when you state what you would do running a training facility when you cannot even figure out what the trainer is teaching your daughter.




I'm talking about general business sense, humanity, and tact, not about the specifics of horse training. :wink:

Btw, specifics of horse training can be learned. I'm learning on this forum, reading books, attending workshops and clinics. I seek opinions. And, btw, the mere fact that I asked a question on a forum doesn't not at all mean that I can't figure out what my daughter's trainer is teaching her.


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## MsBHavin

That is true, but that website hasn't been updated for over a year. I'm not sure what she's actually doing


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## horselessmom

wausuaw said:


> The statement seemed as though it was not directed toward the owner. Seems like it was a general statement to the people that were attacking him for it.


This is what I think as well, after reading a bunch of stuff. But I also think CA did a really poor job about making this distinction in his "statement." I keep putting the words "statement" in quotation marks, because it clarified nothing, other that he was ****ed. 

Good luck with your training there! Sounds exciting.


----------



## texasgal

Palomine said:


> And more than likely he threatened owner too, with being sued.


You might wanna be careful making statements like this..


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## COWCHICK77

After reading CA's blog post linked here, he was upped a notch in my book.

I think more trainers need to be more upfront and cut the bull****, maybe that would help this ridiculous Disney image people have about horses. Unfortunately the NH movement hasn't helped any, but at least CA doesn't attempt to "love" the horses into submission. I am NOT a CA follower, nor do I think he is the best trainer out there, but I will give him props for standing up. I agree if he really wanted to clear the issue immediately he could of fronted the cash for necropsy. And he tried to make good by giving her a horse and refunding the training monies. Screw her if a 14.1 horse isn't good enough.

I have had a horse die in my care and I have know of others that it happened to. I was lucky to have a owner that understand that livestock dies(another reason why I only horses for people I know). My friend was not so lucky and dealt with a similar issue the CA is dealing with. 

Also want to add....
I have seen a few horses have heart attacks, they do twitch and spasm. Matter of fact seen one last weekend at a jr. rodeo during the pole bending. They had to work the ground and fix some panels afterwards. But in good grass it is hard to tell, I have been in Northern CA for a few days visiting family, brought some horses and been tying them to the trailer in the pasture while saddling/unsaddling. You can barely tell the ground has been disturbed even after a couple of days. That includes some pawing trying to get to the green grass. So to say there was no struggle or if the horse had a heart attack and spasmed(sp) is hard to say depending on the ground/grass condition.


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## wausuaw

Thanks folks. Im sure there will be a post, for better or worse. 

CA is not renowned for his professionalism... And yea, he seemed ****ed. Probably was. In fact, I don't really think there is anything professional about him, ha. Could have PROBABLY gone about it a better way, but ya know. I can't say much, I cuss like a sailor and can be a bit brash, so just doesn't bother me so much.


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## churumbeque

horselessmom said:


> It seems strange to me to judge one's horsemanship based on one's FB design. I don't even see her site as "fluff." It is artistic. Different perceptions, I guess.


 I like how horseless moms posts are very professional while others seem more like personal attacks and immature.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

churumbeque said:


> I like how horseless moms posts are very professional while others seem more like personal attacks and immature.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I never claimed to be a professional.


----------



## churumbeque

COWCHICK77 said:


> I never claimed to be a professional.


there is a big difference between acting professional or being a professional. CA is a professional but he wasn't acting very professional .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians

The man is not running for class president or anything that requires people to "like" him. He trains horses and instructors. I could care less how often he curses as long as he does what i hire him to do. Train my horse.
What he said or how he said it has no bearing on his guilt or professional ability.
The old adage success breeds contempt is true.
IMO the owner of the dead horse likes all this attention and sympathy she is receiving. Too busy enjoying her moment in the spotlight to worry about the cause of her horses death.
Blaming CA or questioning his motives or concerns is unrealistic and uncalled for. Shalom


----------



## Roperchick

Here's my .02 (probably more like $5).

You CANNOT judge somebody fairly if you are not DIRECTLY dealing with the situation. When all info beinggiven is from FB or an internet web site....how are you to know what REALLY HAPPENED??*

If you don't have the autopsy report, don't have a video surveillance 24/7 on the horse then who are you to judge/condemn someone?

If I was having veiled insults/accusations thrown at me on public I may retaliate, whether I am a professional figure or not.* He. Is. Human. Just because he is a "proffessional" does not mean he is not dealing with the same stresses as everybody else. He had a horse DIE in His training program. I think that is probably a VERY stressful situation. And getting online to find people trashing you accusing you of abuse, disrespecting and accusing all of your employees and trashing your business would **** anybody off.

Its not fair to hold one individual to higher standards than you would for ANYONE else. Either you accept that everybody is human, with human emotions and reactions, or NO excuses ever for anybody.


Now on the flip side, if I was the owner of said deceased horse I would be understandably upset, stressed, and yes probably a little suspicious of all the circumstances leading up to it all. But she made no move to find answers knly went online and raved about it. But I'm sure there may have been mistakes on both parties and the horse for all anybody knows could have had a major health condition causing the death.

With no autopsy/necropsy done nobody can know.

The way this probably SHOULD have been handled was an investigation into the horses death and NO word from either until results are found.

Unfortunately that is not what happened hence all the drama for it all.

I'm not saying take sides but again, I'm not there seeing the full situation.


Is CA to blame? Was there foul play? I personally am inclined to think not.
He offered to pay for the necropsy/autopsy so its not a matter of the owner "not wanting to dish out more money for a dead horse". She wouldn't be paying for it..
He has numerous employees, many of which are interns, college students etc and I'm sure somewhere word would have gotten out if his training was abusive.

He offered her a horse worth $25,000, now even if she didn't want a "pony" in her barn she could have sold it for a hefty profit....plus he refunded her entire training fee and offered free training for another horse. Doesn't sound like criminal behavior to me.

She in turn went online and trashed his reputation, trashed his offers and lost her "trust" for him...I don't see anything untrustworthy in his actions...horses die. Its tragic but it happens.



End rant.


----------



## dbarabians

I am fairly certain that CA had the owner sign a waiver about death or injuries to her horse.
He did not probably have to pay for the autopsy, dispose of the horse, refund her money, or offer her another horse or free training.
He lives in a ranching area and no jury would side with the horse owner unless she had actual proof of negligence. So all his offers were to satisfy the contract her had with the owner.
I can understand his frustration and anger at the needless accusations and questions about the safety of his program and training facilities .
He offered her more than I would have . Shalom


----------



## Allison Finch

Trainers kill lots of horses? I have been training for over 40 years with a specialty of retraining rank horses. I have never killed a horse yet....though I've been tempted.....

I will tell you one thing, however, If a horse died while in my care, and the cause was not obvious it would get a necropsy, period. No vet would ever ask me "is this your horse?" That question has never crossed a vet's lips while dealing with me. I often find myself calling vets for horses that don't belong to me. The horse is cared for first, permission (assuming I can find the owners quickly) from the owner can wait.

I went to a clients pasture to pull a youngster out that I was working on. I found the poor thing in the pasture with a horribly broken leg. I called my vet and had the horse put down. The vet never questioned me about ownership and I am sure he knew it was not mine. The owner thanked me for not making him suffer, as I knew she would.

I will not offer an opinion on the owner, although we trainers have all had owners like her. It would NEVER occur to me to ever respond to a similar situation the way CA did. But, then, I would not be tying a horse in any way and leave them unattended.


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## wyominggrandma

This is off this discussion, but want to show how quickly things happen and once something starts, the next person says their two cents worth and on and on until nobody knows what the heck is happening.
Yesterday afternoon Jerry and Ann Moss arrived at Lanes End farm in Kentucky to be with Zenyatta for her foaling. Now, not one person from the farm or the Mosses said anything other than they were at the farm. Within two hours, the rumors started about Zenyatta having her foal. From know it alls, to facebook pages, to whomever wanted to post that they knew what was happening, ALL night long the messages were flying about her having a filly, a grey filly, not a filly, not a grey one, in labor, starting labor, foal in birthcanal, foal up and nursing. Because I did not see a direct message from the Mosses on Zenyatta's facebook page or the forum, I was pretty much not believeing what I was reading. I went to bed, woke up this morning with no foal, BUT a message from the Mosses, stating Zenyatta was doing fine, out in her pasture eating and relaxing..... 
So, because they posted they had made it to Kentucky, the online community went bonkers, talking about her and the foal she was having right at that moment.
Not one word was the truth, just a bunch of people reading what others wrote and carrying the story one word further, until is was crazy...
I brought this up because unless a person was there, seeing how the horse died, knowing exactly what was said by who, WHO was there , if the horse was indeed tied out and nobody was watching, its all pure speculation based on what the owner says and what CA wrote to try to end this speculation.
Sometimes the internet is not exactly truthful in what is posted, unlike the state farm insurance commercial where the girl says" everything on the internet is true, because I read that everything on the internet has to be true....


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## dbarabians

allison I see your point and agree with calling the vet.
However neither you or I have millions of dollars of endorsments, employees to pay, or sold out clinics to instruct at. Legal matters need to be addressed to avoid and questions about his or his employees conduct. Shalom


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## EmilyJoy

This is a quote from her about the hobble issue,

"No we chose not to necropsy him. It doesn't really matter how he died. We do not plan to sue about his death. So the knowledge of how he died would serve no real purpose. He will laid to rest at the Downunder Ranch. We were told he was hobbled and turned out to graze and two hours later he was found dead. No signs of thrashing (like a colic) but something quick like a heart attack or aneurism. I just hope he didn't suffer. He will be greatly missed."

I like the fact that CA is showing signs of being a human, not the type to feed you fluff because that's what you want to hear... Him getting a little mad proof that he isn't a robot!


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## QOS

I have read this entire thread and some people have made some valid points on both sides. 

I read this quote on FB the other day that I believe was from Captain Jack Sparrow on Pirates of the Caribbean of all people! I think it fits this situation.

The problem isn't the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem.
​His attitude in his message was over the top. I am not a CA fan or detractor - I am totally neutral where he is concerned but after reading what he said I would probably not spend my $$ on his lessons/clinics/products. 

No one is perfect and we all make mistakes. Animals can die for no reason that is true. I am with Allison. Had I been him, I would have paid for the necropsy. This wasn't a clear cut cause like colic or trauma. The horse was left for a few seconds and just "dropped dead". I would have made sure there wasn't a whiff of suspicion in my direction. I don't think he helped his cause with his rant. JMHO


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## loveduffy

Clint Anderson can not win for losing -He is going to go thought this on matter what real happen it is the way of the world -


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## Mochachino

CA should have slept on that online reponse and reconsidered his language and tone, as it does not look good on him as a professional. I think he is going to regret how he reacted to this situation and responded to the situation.


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## 4horses

I can understand why she didn't have an necropsy. If I sent my horse for training, I probably wouldn't have the money for a necropsy (unless I emptied my emergency funds for vet bills). And even if the trainer was negligent in some way (leaving the horse unsupervised), it would be hard to prove in court. Plus it would be emotionally and financially draining to fight someone as rich as Clinton Anderson. The rich can always afford the best lawyers and appeal it until they win anyway! 

I believe horses are considered livestock so you would only get the value of the animal. Would that be worth the headache? 

None of it changes the fact that the horse is gone. 

The only thing I disliked about Clinton when I saw him at the demonstration is that he was working really out of shape horses for hours at a time until they were lathered with sweat. If you have an undiagnosed health problem and go run a marathon without any prep work you are just asking for issues. Everyone knows that fatigue increases the risk for injury (torn ligaments anyone?). A fixable health problem might not kill your horse if caught early, but if the horse is worked too hard, I bet it could. I've often wondered how many horses at his demonstration end up lame the next day. 

From what I know about Friesians, they are very big horses and prone to heat stroke. The last one I worked with was worked for about 30 minutes before you risked getting him overheated. If you tried to work a horse like that for 3 hours.... 

I don't think Clinton can be certain nothing was done wrong on his end either. If he wasn't there, and didn't witness what happened, his student could have messed up and be denying it. 

What I don't like is how disregardful he sounded about the horse's life. He is more angry about everyone's reaction than he is about loosing the horse. If he is getting burned out, than he needs to find a new line of work. 

Plus he gives no disclosure on exactly what happened. Maybe he does have something to hide? "It's none of your business" is not very reassuring!


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## Maple

horselessmom - Your statement is very good and very professional, but it's not IMO "personable" I wonder if he had put together a statement like that, if people would have argued about how (trying to word this!!) bland it is and how there was no passion behind it - so he obviously must not care too much. Alot of the trainers I know would very much proceed to put out something exactly the same. They horsemen not authors. 

I don't see why he should give details of what actually happened. I completely agree with him that it is nobody's business, because it isn't. What happens with any horse in his care is between himself and the owner... why inform a person in another state/country what is happening - they aren't paying the training fees. 

I can see why he is angry - I'm sure after the first 100 calls he was annoyed, another 100 he was fed up, keep going to 10,000 - I'd be like a bull.


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## KountryPrincess

churumbeque said:


> I think he could have worded it a bit more politely. Yes horses do die but I am curious as if the horse was tied with it's head down and why? I would probable have done a necropsy myself at my cost just to rule out anything suspicous.
> 
> That seems odd to leave a horse unattended if it were tied that way for a legitimate reason. If he has ridden Mindy for 15 years that means she is pushing 20 and I might not want to take a gift horse either.


. 

LOL, he did *not* offer to give her Mindy! He would never get rid of that mare, she helped make his career. He was just using her as a height comparison. Anyone that turns down a free Signature horse is an idiot unless she is going to sue him, then it would make sense. The owner sounds like a lunatic. Saying that she was cutting back her horse's feed and sending him to a place where she was warned that the horses regularly die. She obviously has way more money than sense. I think the "horse's die" comment was made *after* the loss of the horse, this owner is such an idiot I would not trust a darn thing that comes out of her mouth.

I am not a huge CA fan, I have seen him a few times in person, and his training methods are fine and generally work well. This has nothing to do with CA. This has to do with an inexperiened, overhorsed, silly woman who really needs to find a different hobby.


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## demonwolfmoon

You know, a someone who has worked in management trying to please people, I can see where individuals may be bothered by the lack of professionalism of CA's statement. It behooves someone running a business to not offend people...the bland "I'm sorry that happened to you" has rolled off of my tongue so often at work...like the time when one of the scientists felt that my employee was driving too slow in front of him in the (MASSIVE EMPTY) parking lot on *purpose*...just so this person would be late for work...

But you know what? That kind of vanilla, political response is probably 90 percent of the time canned and FAKE. Do you really think that after 300 thousand calls, the customer service rep at the other side of the line REALLY cares that your item arrived dented after the mailman dropped it, or that you forgot to pay your bill on time because your dog ate it? NO! *My point is, we as a society prefer the pretty lie over the truth. *

CA would have been much safer had he stuck to the political response, but instead he chose to be himself, undedited instead of a business entity. We can choose to dislike his attitude and how he presents himself....but isn't it BETTER THAT WAY? Wouldn't you prefer to know what someone "really" thinks instead of the pretty lie they present to sell you something?

I prefer honesty.

And in that respect, something about the horse owner makes me uncomfortable. Why send your horse to a place that "kills horses"? Why starve your horse to improve its behavior before sending it to the abovementioned, presumably physically strenuous "boot camp" scenario? Why broadcast that mess all over facebook after the business did EVERYTHING IT COULD to make it up to you? Honestly, they gave her money back, they offered a reasonable replacement that she could have turned around and sold for something more of her own liking....

She turned down the necropsy....there's no way of knowing, because of that, what really happened to her horse...because of that, the business was under no obligation to refund a cent, or refund anything. A necropsy, after the cost of a darn Friesian and with respect to the REFUND THAT THEY GAVE HER, is a relatively cheap thing. Furthermore, had she been so inclined, a necropsy could have given her the information she needed to file suit, and demand replacement of her animal. Something is just off about the entire situation. I fully understand being upset at the sudden death of your animal, but creating drama all over the internet? *scratches head*. Is she just enjoying free publicity? I mean others mentioned that she, at one point, was breeding. Or perhaps she is just enjoying to some extent her ten minutes of (internet) fame....


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## KountryPrincess

GamingGrrl said:


> I looked at the horses owners FB page, it's filled with fairy and unicorn and butterfly pictures. She also made several suspect posts about waiting to hear if her horse was still alive and then another post about waiting for "the call".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK, this just proves my above statement. The owner has no idea what life with horses is really like. She has the dough to by herself a fantasy black horsie but did not have the experience to handle the magical black horsie, so she sent him away to a very expensive wilderness training camp for naughty black stallions, knowing she might be sending him to a horrible death but she just had to risk it because the magical horsie needed to magical trainer to fix him, even if he came home withour a single hair on his body, the trainer would surely fix him. 

Boy I am feeling b****y tonight.


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## sandy2u1

It was an unfortunate thing that happened, but I don't think anyone was at fault. I think Clinton Anderson did everything he could to rectify the situation. 

I really thought Clinton Anderson's comment about it was ridiculous and rude, though. He has been promoting himself, his training and his tools for years and has made a lot of fame and fortune by doing so. When you put yourself in the public eye like that, then your business isn't private anymore. The rant about how people need to mind their own business is inappropriate to me. I get that he is angry that people are speaking negatively about him and making false accusations. However, instead of throwing a tantrum and ranting away, it would have been more beneficial to him to make a calm, professional statement. He will still be racking in all that money when this is all said and done with and we all know it. I sure won't be throwing him a pity party. I think he needs to just put his big boy boots on and suck it up.


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## demonwolfmoon

sandy2u1 said:


> I think he needs to just put his big boy boots on and suck it up.


Suck what up? Let's say that nothing was wrong from his side....imagine how it would feel to be accused of the things I'm sure he's getting accused of, even from looking at the posts here.

Imagine them being said to you....

*Animal Abuser
Fraud
Dishonest businessman
etc
*
I'm sure that a person who is confident in themselves and the general "benevolence" of his fellow man can brush that off...

Tell me it doesn't hurt though. Tell me that deep down, an innocent guy (we're assuming) won't sit there and think..."wow, how can they even believe that mess?".

How many people jumped down his throat with the bad before he got upset enough to post what he posted? I can sympathize, really..._sometimes, enough really IS enough._

The sad thing is, we as a society so often jump to the WORST possible conclusions, and seem to relish in the suffering and downfall of others. _What does that say about us?_


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## KountryPrincess

Ok I just went to that FB page, and it confirmed my suspicions that this person seems like a loon. There are pics of all these people riding, but none of them seem to be her. The idiotic pic of the person in the fairy costume makes me want to barf. It appears she lives in a fantasy world.

But the real issue is, I read the original post she wrote prior to sending her horse. Just as I suspected, nowhere did it say that CA told her that horses regularly die in his program. That is something that appears to have been added after the horse's death, probably based on CA saying that horses do die sometimes. That explains why someone would send their horse to someone that said their horses regularly die.....nobody would, it simply did not happen. She will be lucky if he does not sue her for libel, because she seems to be twisting his words to say that horses regularly die in his program, which could obviously hurt his business.


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## Palomine

Shirley Roth and Cleve Wells both were known in WP circles as trainers who had horses die frequently. And known to be over the top cruel too.

And for years nothing was done. Not until last year was there anything done to them.

They aren't the only ones either. All disciplines have trainers like this, and many of them are the top trainers too.

And owner didn't go on rampage against CA, she was much nicer than I would have been. 

His response? Pretty much shows what type of person he is I think.

And from what I've heard about his "academy" makes it sound like a concentration camp run by madman. 

And sad to see that people, who would have been all over someone else that had done this to horse, will take up for this fool because he is CA. He messed up here, and is now angry that people are calling him out about it.

Don't want to be in the public eye? Don't put yourself out there.

And for whatever reason Texas girl/gal or whatever, you keep posting I shouldn't be writing this or that? What the hell is it to you what I write, or think? 

You want to run CA up a flagpole and salute? Go for it, but I think he is an idiot, his response to this pretty much shows it.


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## demonwolfmoon

Palomine said:


> *And sad to see that people, who would have been all over someone else that had done this to horse, will take up for this fool because he is CA. He messed up here, and is now angry that people are calling him out about it.
> *
> Don't want to be in the public eye? Don't put yourself out there.


I wouldn't know the man from Adam, so to speak. 

Haven't watched any videos, haven't heard the man speak.

I guess you haven't proven that he did MESS UP. Seems like he wasn't even there...


You do have a point about the second half. But just because someone is famous doesn't give us the right to presume that we know them, to backseat drive everything that they do and be in their business 24/7.


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## franknbeans

Here is the contract that is agreed to in order to apply for a horse to be considered for this program. It is clear from the introductory statements regarding this program that it is a last ditch effort for horses that have been from trainer to trainer with no success. It is also very clear from this agreement that CA pulls no punches as to what to expect He is brutally honest, and, in fact, this agreement even includes a section where the horse owner agrees NOT TO BLOG about the horses progress. Interesting. I sure can see why he reacted like he did. I don't think he could have made things any clearer.

Academy Horses

Oh, and BTW-I am by no means a CA groupie. I use some of his methods, just as I use some of the methods of other horsemen, NH or not, that have something to offer. He can be a bit "rough around the edges", which puts some folks off. He certainly is NOT the smooth talker PP is.


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## texasgal

Palomine said:


> And for whatever reason Texas girl/gal or whatever, you keep posting I shouldn't be writing this or that? What the hell is it to you what I write, or think?
> 
> You want to run CA up a flagpole and salute? Go for it.


My post to you to be careful accusing someone of threatening another person was a genuine warning. These situations are emotionally charged, but when you resort to using words like "killed" and accuse people of threatening to intimidate, when there has been no proof or even indication of either, you not only make yourself less than credible, you set yourself up for a lawsuit.

You can be less than credible all you want, I just hate to see someone set themselves up for trouble over an emotional situation that doesn't even involve them.

That's all. It was sincere. 

Oh, and I've already stated that I'm not a CA follower. I'm more of a firewoman and recognize firestarters.

I would say that I'll wait for the facts, but I don't think we'll ever know them.


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## apachiedragon

Maple said:


> I don't see why he should give details of what actually happened. I completely agree with him that it is nobody's business, because it isn't. What happens with any horse in his care is between himself and the owner... why inform a person in another state/country what is happening - they aren't paying the training fees.


In a situation this extreme, meaning the death of an animal for undisclosed reasons, it is the business of every single person who considers sending a horse to his program for training. They deserve to know the truth about what really happened, or how can they be sure it WASN't just an accident, and not something that might happen to their horse as well? His response was far from reassuring to anyone who might use his services in the future. In fact, I'd wager he drove away a good bit of business by shooting off at the mouth before he thought about the results.


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## wyominggrandma

hmm, I think everyone should read about the program that the link was posted. What the owner wrote goes in direct conflict of the pre boot camp instructions. Makes me think there is alot more questionable truth of the story from the owner, wonder what else she is withholding: from the owners own words: I've been getting him ready by cutting way back on his feed and hay. And he is slimming down and his naughty energy is a tiny bit reduced yet, this is directly from the Academy information page:"While we ask that you don’t work with your horse prior to training, to best ensure he leaves the ranch in good weight, we encourage you to generously feed him before dropping him off at the ranch. Due to the program’s intensity, it is best if the horse is fleshy and a little fat coming into the program. If you’ve underfed your horse and he’s skinny, he’ll have a much harder time gaining weight while in training. Remember, horses are worked six days a week, for at least two hours a day. While your horse will certainly be fed a high quality forage and grain, he’ll burn a lot of calories during training. If the horse comes into the program a little fat, by the end of the 6-week course, he’ll have a perfect body condition score and be in good weight." 


 Hmm, maybe the owner needs to be more truthful, since she obviously did something before she even sent the horse away... Maybe she knows more than she is saying, maybe she knows exactly what happened, but the real truth doesn't make for good reading or "feel sorry for me" information.
As I stated before, I don't have anything for or against CA.. Trainers train based on what works for them. I feel his letter, though a bit "hot" is his right. Plus, it was posted on HIS page, he has the right to write as he wants.But in typical "feeding frenzy" on the internet and different forums, even his letter is being judged. The conversation between the owner and CA was between them and if it had been left between them all this would be a moot point. But, the owner chose to keep the "frenzy" going by her posts and CA or any trainer has the right to say what he/she needs to to inform the public Frenzy Feeders his side.


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## horselessmom

wyominggrandma said:


> hmm, I think everyone should read about the program that the link was posted. What the owner wrote goes in direct conflict of the pre boot camp instructions. Makes me think there is alot more questionable truth of the story from the owner, wonder what else she is withholding: from the owners own words: I've been getting him ready by cutting way back on his feed and hay. And he is slimming down and his naughty energy is a tiny bit reduced yet, this is directly from the Academy information page:"While we ask that you don’t work with your horse prior to training, to best ensure he leaves the ranch in good weight, we encourage you to generously feed him before dropping him off at the ranch. Due to the program’s intensity, it is best if the horse is fleshy and a little fat coming into the program. If you’ve underfed your horse and he’s skinny, he’ll have a much harder time gaining weight while in training. Remember, horses are worked six days a week, for at least two hours a day. While your horse will certainly be fed a high quality forage and grain, he’ll burn a lot of calories during training. If the horse comes into the program a little fat, by the end of the 6-week course, he’ll have a perfect body condition score and be in good weight."
> 
> 
> Hmm, maybe the owner needs to be more truthful, since she obviously did something before she even sent the horse away... Maybe she knows more than she is saying, maybe she knows exactly what happened, but the real truth doesn't make for good reading or "feel sorry for me" information.
> As I stated before, I don't have anything for or against CA.. Trainers train based on what works for them. I feel his letter, though a bit "hot" is his right. Plus, it was posted on HIS page, he has the right to write as he wants.But in typical "feeding frenzy" on the internet and different forums, even his letter is being judged. The conversation between the owner and CA was between them and if it had been left between them all this would be a moot point. But, the owner chose to keep the "frenzy" going by her posts and CA or any trainer has the right to say what he/she needs to to inform the public Frenzy Feeders his side.



Well, this just shows that there's way more to the story that the general public will ever know. However, the nature of the general public is to speculate :wink:. This is just how our brains work--when there's information missing, our brains want, or even need, to fill in the blanks.


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## dbarabians

I have no personal experience with CA. Never seen a video, tv show or been to a clinic. I have read a few articles the man has written.
So I can honestly say I dont want to run the man up a flagpole and salute him.
Calling a horse facility a concentration camp run by a madman is highly offensive to this grandson of a Holocaust survivor. working a horse for 2 hours a day in no way equals the brutal slave labour endured by the victims of those camps.
I have sent a few horses to professional trainers and each time I have signed a waiver in case of injury or death of the horse.
If CA did not shut his facility down for a day of mourning, shed tears, or offer the lady the keys to the facility to ease her grief.... so what.
He has the ability to trash her reputation far more than she can his.
In fact his handling of the situation, tone of his letter, generous offers, and refusal to take legaln action against these accusations has peaked my interest in the mans methods. Positiviely I might add.
I can understand why some may be taken aback by his approach . these colourful metaphors and vieled accusations though have no credibilty. Shalom


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## onuilmar

horselessmom said:


> It seems strange to me to judge one's horsemanship based on one's FB design. I don't even see her site as "fluff." It is artistic. Different perceptions, I guess.


 
I think the problem for horse people with the owner's fb page is that art and writing is all about dream space and how things might be. Kind of wishful thinking. And all the costumes and dreams of the Medieval era reflect more of the same. And the Medieval era in a romantic sense, not the bloody gory place it really was.

People who clean stalls see the very earthy side of things. 

Also, most horse people are very down to earth because it is dangerous not to be. Horses are best dealt with in a very realistic way, which is why people are saying over and over that they are NOT dogs and it is dangerous to anthropomorphise them.

And don't forget that the owner sent her horse to CA BECAUSE he was becoming dangerous.

(I should point out that I know little about CA and his methods. Most of my knowledge about horses comes from doing and hands on instruction.)


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## DraftyAiresMum

Palomine said:


> And more than likely he threatened owner too, with being sued.


What do you personally have against CA? Because it seems like everything you've put in this thread is a direct attack against him or at least insinuating unsubstantiated negatives about him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maple

apachiedragon said:


> In a situation this extreme, meaning the death of an animal for undisclosed reasons, it is the business of every single person who considers sending a horse to his program for training. They deserve to know the truth about what really happened, or how can they be sure it WASN't just an accident, and not something that might happen to their horse as well? His response was far from reassuring to anyone who might use his services in the future. In fact, I'd wager he drove away a good bit of business by shooting off at the mouth before he thought about the results.


Unless there is a publicized blog, video or other means of media about the on going training of the animal and the incident it is none of our business. Why should I feel some sense of entitlement to be apart of somebody else's life? Could you imagine the uproar is somebody called and asked about the progress of another client's horse and he told them? An owner would be livid. Can you imagine walking up to a trainer and saying "I heard Flicka died, I was thinking of sending a horse here so you must tell me what happened". The trainer would tell you where to shove it. Just because society wants to be nosey and involved in something that has *zero* to do with them, it does not give them that right. 

Trainers of all makes will get good and bad reviews. It is a part of the process - some people like the way things are done, some don't. You can't please anybody.


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## greentree

Does CA take regular horses in for training, or just this "boot camp" stuff? I always thought the point of his "program" (I hate that word used with horses, almost as much as I hate the word "frame") was that average horsepeople could work with their own problem horses. Seems to me to contradict his other teachings. If the horse got two+ hours WORK at home, it may not need boot camp, but I could be wrong, of course. 

Just a rambling thought. Also seems like for the welfare of all those $25,000 horses on his place, he would have wanted to know what killed the horse, and if he had thought to put it that way to miss faeriehorse, maybe avoided a lot of this. Hindsight is 20\20.


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## wyominggrandma

DraftyAiresMum said:


> What do you personally have against CA? Because it seems like everything you've put in this thread is a direct attack against him or at least insinuating unsubstantiated negatives about him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I have also wondered that. According to her, CA is obviously at fault, no way could an accident happened. She is just quoting the owners information. Maybe she is a friend of the owner? Maybe she is one of the "feeding frenzy" folks I was talking about. Drama drama drama

The way I see it, what happened is between CA and the owner. Nobody elses business. What happened is between them, not the internet, not all the nosy folks who demand to be told. Here is an example:someone brings their animal to the vet clinic. The animal dies during surgery for something.The DR and the owner discuss what happened and the probability of why. (possible reaction to anesthetic as an example, heart attack, etc) Owner doesn't want autopsy, even at Dr expense. So, case is closed. Or so DR thinks. But pretty soon his name is being spread all over as a bad vet, quack, animal killer, etc. Hmm, seems owner got on facebook, says her animal died and then the "feeding frenzy" folks get involved and the internet goes wild. Well, so and so had this happen at this DR's clinic. So and so says the vet dropped the dog on the floor before surgery. So and so says the dog died in its cage and didn't even have surgery. And the list goes on and on.
Remember the game "telephone" You sit in a big circle and whisper a word in the next person's ear? By the time it gets around the circle, the word turns into something totally different. Everyone has the right to defend themselves, especially against the internet nosybodies.
Anyone can say what they want, can say this particular trainer is bad, abusive, cruel, horses die with him, etc... don't send your horse there because he is cruel, yadda yadda.
It is nobody's business.. The horse is dead for whatever reason. Maybe she starved him so badly his system shut down. Animals that have feed withheld "so his naughty ways calm down" might not have been able to handle the work started on him, even though it is directly written to feed the animals "up" so they carry a bit more weight to begin the program.
I think there is alot more truth to this story than the owner is willing to admit. What we hear is her version and speculation by the internet "feeding frenzy" to keep it going.


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## Foxtail Ranch

I will start by saying I'm a person who has used CA methods and I like him. I'm not a follower or fan as I just use bits and pieces of his method. I trust his methods. I'm not into his "thinking side of the brain" stuff but I think most of his words have value and are helpful.

I'm sorry that CA is being maligned on the internet. We all know examples of stories that have gone out of control on the internet. To be on the receiving end of that must be awful! And what makes me really feel bad is knowing how crazy some horse people can be. Horses seem to attract some of the most socially awkward and fanatical women (and a few men)on our planet. I'd feel bad for anyone in this fix. 

I bet this woman turning down CA's offer of a signature horse was especially irritating. I have heard CA talk about how Americans think they need bigger and bigger horses when a nice 14 hh horse is sufficient and easier to mount. I can just see him shaking his head on this one!

This seems like another example of how the Internet can be used for wrong. If you are a trainer who uses forceful (not cruel) methods, then you are a horse killer. If you are a trainer that uses clicker training then you are an idiot softie who believes in unicorns and the pegasus.

We just need to take a breath!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nvr2many

demonwolfmoon said:


> She turned down the necropsy....there's no way of knowing, because of that, what really happened to her horse..


If she would have had a necropsy and they found it had a pre-existing condition or it was just a case of S*** Happens, then she would not be getting all the attention she is. It may have closed the case and the attention would stop. She may not have wanted that. This way she will always be able to say, .............................. maybe.............


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## DraftyAiresMum

Palomine said:


> Shirley Roth and Cleve Wells both were known in WP circles as trainers who had horses die frequently. And known to be over the top cruel too.
> 
> And for years nothing was done. Not until last year was there anything done to them.
> 
> They aren't the only ones either. All disciplines have trainers like this, and many of them are the top trainers too.
> 
> And owner didn't go on rampage against CA, she was much nicer than I would have been.
> 
> His response? Pretty much shows what type of person he is I think.
> 
> And from what I've heard about his "academy" makes it sound like a concentration camp run by madman.
> 
> And sad to see that people, who would have been all over someone else that had done this to horse, will take up for this fool because he is CA. He messed up here, and is now angry that people are calling him out about it.
> 
> Don't want to be in the public eye? Don't put yourself out there.
> 
> And for whatever reason Texas girl/gal or whatever, you keep posting I shouldn't be writing this or that? What the hell is it to you what I write, or think?
> 
> You want to run CA up a flagpole and salute? Go for it, but I think he is an idiot, his response to this pretty much shows it.


Again, what do you PERSONALLY have against CA? You're making your statements extremely personal by calling him a fool and an idiot. 

I'm not a fan of PP. I've had to fix a horse that was pretty much ruined by his methods. However, I don't go around bad-mouthing the man, jumping on every piece of negative rumor about his as though it were gospel truth, or call anyone who follows his methods an idiot. I will simply state that I do not like his methods. I don't make it personal, as the man has never done anything directly to me. Your posts, however, make it seem as though you have a personal vendetta against CA? Would you be this adamant if he was PP or Chris Cox or Buck Branaman, or any of the other big name trainers?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wyominggrandma

Funny how there is no answer from Palomine as to why she seems to hate CA so much. Her comments are typical of the "feeding frenzy" I wrote about.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

wyominggrandma said:


> Funny how there is no answer from Palomine as to why she seems to hate CA so much. Her comments are typical of the "feeding frenzy" I wrote about.


Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

Well said, Drafty!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Clayton Taffy

wyominggrandma said:


> Funny how there is no answer from Palomine as to why she seems to hate CA so much. Her comments are typical of the "feeding frenzy" I wrote about.


Are you serious?
DAM asked this question at 10:22 this morning and you posted this one hour later. 
She might work for a living!


----------



## Annanoel

This is just way out of hand now. There will NEVER be a clear answer as to what happened. The horse is DEAD, now BURIED at the ranch, don't mean to be so blunt, that's is one of the only things we really know. We can sit here and go through the owner of the horse and CA himself, but all in all noone will know. That is a hard answer to accept because it really isn't one, but we don't have a choice. That's what was decided no necropsy -- IMO that's final. As much as we can "attack" the owner and "attack" CA the issue IS between them. 

There are things on both sides I don't agree with -- both the way the horse owner has come off with her statements, her buisiness and the overall way she is with horses from what I've read and seen. While that's not enough evidence to some it sure paints a picture for me. Then CA as well I do think he could have been a bit more professional, but do see where he's coming from as well. Still going to have to side more with CA on this issue. 

I posted the statement from CA way back before Palomine posted it again. Don't know if you're not reading all the posts Palomine, but the attacks on CA aren't really warranted. Also, the general attitude of your comments and comparing them to things like the Holocaust that is definitley taking it too far. There is a debate going on here obviously, but your posts are personal from some reason. Lots of us just want to know WHY eventually?


----------



## wyominggrandma

Excuse me, Taffy Clayton, but a bunch of people have asked this same question before me, HOURS before I QUOTED what was asked many many posts earlier. 
Oh, about the snarky comment"she might work for a living"..

I work for a living also, 5 days a week.. I just happen to have the night shift today. Um, I also notice you are posting. Does that mean you are not working for a living?


----------



## Clayton Taffy

wyominggrandma said:


> Excuse me, Taffy Clayton, but a bunch of people have asked this same question before me, HOURS before I QUOTED what was asked many many posts earlier.
> Oh, about the snarky comment"she might work for a living"..
> 
> I work for a living also, 5 days a week.. I just happen to have the night shift today. Um, I also notice you are posting. Does that mean you are not working for a living?


You will have to show me where this question was asked to the OP before this morning, I went back 10 pages and didn't see it.

As for, "working for a living", ie an 8 am to 5 pm job, with no personal access to a computer.


----------



## wyominggrandma

I am going to ask a question about all of this and I don't want to go back and read it all, I just remember reading about hobbling and how many folks wrote saying this and that: it was posted(not sure if from the original poster, from the horse owners facebook page,from CA's page), but it was posted about the horse being hobbled and how cruel it was, and that horse was found dead when whomever hobbled it returned. Posters mentioned how it was hobbled" head tied down to front foot, head tied down and left, horse hobbled and left to eat" To be honest, not sure what was posted what was comments what actually happened.
BUT,to the folks who are sure that CA or his trainer, hobbled the horse, left it unattended and that is why it died, have any of you actually ever driven through a REAL country farm/ranching/hunting area and seen horses tied up and left to graze for all day or all night? I have seen outfitters hobble one or two horses by their front legs and the whole herd is turned out at night to graze. The hobbled horses keep the rest of the horses from leaving the "lead" horses. Nobody is watching them, they are left to eat and graze. I have seen horses left for the day tied to a fence by a front leg or by a halter beside a busy highway and left to graze. I have seen horses hobbled by a front leg tied to a back leg and left to graze. I have seen the sheepherders hobble a horse and they are turned loose to move and graze. Nobody is standing by watching them graze, for hours and hours.
This is a typical way some feed their horses grass.. Do I think its a good idea? No because so many things can and do happen while horse or horses are left to eat this way. But, it does occur all the time in the USA and nobody stops and tells a rancher/farmer/outfitter that its cruel. Nobody knows if a horse dies because it falls and breaks it neck, because it falls over dead from whatever reason and there it is laying dead whether two hours later or 12 hours later. They just take away the horse and bury it. 
This whole situation is being carried over the internet and numerous forums and facebook because the OWNER of the horse stated her upset and it was taken from there. Sure she had the right to be upset, but if anyone actually reads what is written on CA's site about this program and any of his training, on ANY trainers page about training, what happens, what can happen to the horse, how ACCIDENTS happen, then there is no point in pointing fingers. 
Anyone who has or has had animals that die unexpectantly wants to blame someone, anyone for their upset and pain. Its the feeding frenzy that keeps the blame going. 
I think its sad that this happened, but I bet if you check references on ANY famous trainer, or any backyard trainer, horses die and they are blamed for it.


----------



## wyominggrandma

. I wrote that she did not answer and she hasn't. Are you really going to try and drag this out?


----------



## Muppetgirl

Oh I have no issue with hobbling at all.....I was curious as to what kind of hobbling 'low tied' was and as I have researched its tying the head to the front foot, not a hobbling technique I have ever seen, nor one I'd like to use. Seems like a wreck waiting to happen.


----------



## wyominggrandma

That is why I was asking. I never saw an exact explanation of what or how the horse was tied or hobbled. Just what I saw about "head being tied low" or howver it was worded. Just curious.


----------



## Clayton Taffy

I answered your question since you are so adament that people do so. 
Nice edit, adding that second sentence.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Taffy Clayton, if you look, Palomine posted in this thread after I asked the first time what kind of beef s/he has with CA and s/he didn't respond, but rather continued to bad-mouth CA (and anyone who likes his methods)...in fact, the bad-mouthing *got worse* after I asked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## busysmurf

For future reference, I've noticed the OP tends to find "shock" stories, post them, act as though she knows all the facts, and jump to conclusions without knowing all the info.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/horse-abuser-wi-150770/
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/horses-chased-death-texas-august-27-a-136050/

Chicken Little anyone??


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Wow, 21 pages of drama......;-)

My point of view:
Im not a fan of CA, because I wasn't too impressed of what his methods produced used by some of his followers, but I'll give him the benefit if the doubt, knowing it wasn't him doing it.
Reading the description of the program: 500$ non-refundable payment upon application" and " no guarantee that your horse will he accepted" or " will be eligible" and that the training is being done by his trainees, who, I would think, but correct me if I'm wrong, pay for their training too. 
His statement: straight from the heart, but totally unprofessional.
The horse owner: likes medieval things, got herself a Frisian, couldn't ride it and screwed it up. Slimming him down was a necessity, according to his pic on her website, or he would have collapsed in his first training session. The "boot camp" phrase is actually CA's expression, and would have stopped me right there from bringing a horse to him, if I would have been able to accept all what I mentioned above.

What happened can be only seen as an unfortunate accident, since she didn't agree to a necropsy. 
CA did what he could to reimburse her, she didn't take the horse probably because it wasn't medieval enough.
She could have posted on FB, stating horse died in tragic accident and leave it at that.

And honestly, if I would have been talked about like that, I would have dug up the horse and had that necropsy done. And, provided it wasn't anybody's fault, would happily sue her.


----------



## Muppetgirl

I agree DHW.....also just to add, who says she even has to post it on FB?? IMO far too much crap is posted on FB and people are clueless to how that info is used. I don't post all my drama on FB for the world to see because A. I'm not a drama queen 2. I don't need to explain myself to anyone 3. I don't need my a** to be patted by all my so called 'friends' 4. No one cares what I had for dinner!

If I have tragedy or drama in my life I share it with people who actually care, the people who actually call me or visit me. My ego doesn't need boosting by how many friends I have on FB and how many times I change my status in one day.

The owner of this horse is creating her own drama and just wants the attention....FB is definitely a place to find attention.


----------



## deserthorsewoman

Muppetgirl said:


> I agree DHW.....also just to add, who says she even has to post it on FB?? IMO far too much crap is posted on FB and people are clueless to how that info is used. I don't post all my drama on FB for the world to see because A. I'm not a drama queen 2. I don't need to explain myself to anyone 3. I don't need my a** to be patted by all my so called 'friends' 4. No one cares what I had for dinner!
> 
> If I have tragedy or drama in my life I share it with people who actually care, the people who actually call me or visit me. My ego doesn't need boosting by how many friends I have on FB and how many times I change my status in one day.
> 
> The owner of this horse is creating her own drama and just wants the attention....FB is definitely a place to find attention.


This is exactly why I don't do FB


----------



## Palomine

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Taffy Clayton, if you look, Palomine posted in this thread after I asked the first time what kind of beef s/he has with CA and s/he didn't respond, but rather continued to bad-mouth CA (and anyone who likes his methods)...in fact, the bad-mouthing *got worse* after I asked.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I didn't see where you asked it.

I don't have any beef other than I think he is a fool, thought that before this for that matter.

And this just reinforced it.


----------



## Palomine

busysmurf said:


> For future reference, I've noticed the OP tends to find "shock" stories, post them, act as though she knows all the facts, and jump to conclusions without knowing all the info.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/horse-abuser-wi-150770/
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/horses-chased-death-texas-august-27-a-136050/
> 
> Chicken Little anyone??


Shock value?

Sterling Rachwahl in WI has been sexually abusing horses, and has been imprisoned for killing them and managed to get out due to lawyer using "he is mentally ill" bit. And not sure if he is still in or not, as heard he was attempting to play the crazy card again.

I suppose in your perfect world things like this don't happen? Nice.

And horses chased in Texas? How do you figure that is shock value. I posted that because I thought responsible horse owners might want to keep closer eye on their horses, as there have also been quite a few cases of horses being shot, and either wounded or killed outright.

I'd rather be given a heads up as to what is going on with people's horses in differing states, so that I can assess my horses safety, and determine if there are things I can do to keep them safer, but I guess you aren't like that? 

Don't read my threads then.

Won't bother me a bit.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

But why do you think he's a fool? I'm honestly curious.

Also, just because you think he's a fool doesn't mean you need to go around bad-mouthing him and those who use his methods. That's just uncalled for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Palomine

wyominggrandma said:


> Funny how there is no answer from Palomine as to why she seems to hate CA so much. Her comments are typical of the "feeding frenzy" I wrote about.


There was no answer because we had farriers at barn, and I had to be there. Didn't know I had to clear that with you?


----------



## Palomine

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Exactly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was at the barn, we had farriers there. Again, I didn't know it was necessary to clear that with her or you?


----------



## Palomine

tiffanyodonnell said:


> Well said, Drafty!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly is well said?

And didn't know it was necessary to okay having to be at barn with the farriers today with you either.


----------



## farmpony84

Palomine,

You don't HAVE to answer anyones questions. You are entitled to your own opinion and you are allowed to post subjects of interest to you. If at any time you feel you are being ganged up on or harrassed please use the report post feature.

All folks posting are welcome to post opinions, thoughts, questions, etc. But respect is key to all involved.

Do not bandwagon or popcorn.

Mod rant over.


----------



## Palomine

I don't think highly of the vast majority of the clinicians.

Why?

Because I haven't seen anyone that I thought came out of one of their clinics that had any sense. PP, CA , JL or whomever.

Lots of gimmicks, lots of cute parlor tricks, lots of things to buy. But too many seem to come out with nothing in terms of horse sense.

Are there people who have benefited? Probably. Have I met any? No.

The things that I see their devotees doing are unsafe, unsound, and downright dangerous in many cases.

In what world, is there a practical use for teaching a horse to jump up on platform? I could maybe see this if people still hauled their horse in the back of pickup, (well, some do still but not usually seen now) and you had no earth ramp to walk it up. Then it might have practical use.

But other than that? Nope.

Same with running around playing games with horse. No practical use.

I grew up around good horsemen. That knew what they were doing and were safe, honest and knew horses. Their advice was advice you could rely on, and that you could use. It was sound advice from their many years of experience with horses.

These people have made a killing out of people who many times, have little real experience with horses, and who will fall for anything, and pay dearly for it too.

They are snake oil salesmen. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## busysmurf

Palomine said:


> Shock value?
> 
> Sterling Rachwahl in WI has been sexually abusing horses, and has been imprisoned for killing them and managed to get out due to lawyer using "he is mentally ill" bit. And not sure if he is still in or not, as heard he was attempting to play the crazy card again.
> 
> I suppose in your perfect world things like this don't happen? Nice.
> 
> And horses chased in Texas? How do you figure that is shock value. I posted that because I thought responsible horse owners might want to keep closer eye on their horses, as there have also been quite a few cases of horses being shot, and either wounded or killed outright.
> 
> I'd rather be given a heads up as to what is going on with people's horses in differing states, so that I can assess my horses safety, and determine if there are things I can do to keep them safer, but I guess you aren't like that?
> 
> Don't read my threads then.
> 
> Won't bother me a bit.


"This POS for lack of better term, has been sexually abusing horses and ponies for decades now, and keeps getting out of jail/institutions.

How is this possible, when he has left a trail of dead and dying horses behind him.

What is wrong with our system of justice.

Google his name to see how twisted this pervert is, and how the state of Wisconsin has failed horse owners.

He trolls CL looking for free horses too.

I don't know if he is still locked up, but judging on past times, I doubt it."


No, I don't live in a perfect world, farthest from it. BUT, the stories you post are called "shock" stories. They are meant to "shock" the reader.

WI didn't do anything to fail horse owners, they did what they were allowed by the law & budget available to them. Is it s**tty it happened , h#lls yeah, am I upset I'm so close, YES! BUT you don't have all the facts, so unless you are able to present ALL the facts your posts are to present "shock" stories.

You have a lot to learn about how media (tv, radio, electronic) works. The more "shocking" the story = the more publicity. And it's people like you who promote the one sided stories, that ends up hurting a lot of innocent people. 

Do you have any idea how innaccurrate most media is?? And I don't mean you know because you read it somewhere, I mean have you seen in person first hand how media twists stories to make them more shocking???

Because I tell you what, if you have you sure as H*LL wouldn't be posting one sided "news" the way you do.

In regards to this particular post, I don't care for CA methods, I don't care if he never trains another horse or trains them all. But the fact that this whole thing has been so one sided, ****es me off. NOW, had you posted both sides of the story, fine.

The phrase GUILTY until proven innocent comes to mind.


----------



## texasgal

Practical use .... hmmmmm.

~ thinking about the last wp class I watched.


----------



## Allison Finch

I can't offer an opinion about the death of the horse....because I don't know what caused it.

I can't offer an opinion of the training center or its reputation....because I know nothing about it.

I can't offer an opinion of the owner.....because I refuse to let facebook make me think I now completely know someone.


I know very little about CA and his methods.

BUT, what I can offer an opinion of (and have) is what is right before me, written in his own hand, evidently. His answer to the whole thing. THAT I see. It absolutely reminds me of similar rude rants posted by another "trainer" whose very mention is forbidden here. Very similar......


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

Palomine, I was in agreement with Drafy's comment about not making personal comments about others, refraining from personal attacks. I believe we should talk about important issues in the horse world. But I choose to honor all, even those not present. I didn't mean to speak only to you either. I was talking about anyone who insults others in our forum. In my house, saying someone is stupid is an insult. 

I will add that if you have ever worked in the public eye, and some of us must do so in the line of our duties, you must know that stories get twisted and people often get painted unfairly, especially when there are only a few of the many facts that are known. And sometimes criminals get away with evil acts and, because all facts aren't known, they not only get away with it but others think they are fine upstanding people. That is the way the world has been, is now, and probably will be. 

And sometimes, since I am answering from a "mobile device" I am unable to quote so my apologies for lack of clarity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ropinbiker

I don't feel CA's response was anything like the "trainer who's name can't be mentioned.." --- he offered her a $25000 horse, he has talked to her on 3 occasions to attempt to fix the problem --- he did say others without a working knowledge of the situation should keep out and shut up...he didn't "ban" anyone from anything and he didn't say if you don't agree with me then you are stupid, etc. He was blunt and a bit on the defense, but I ask, wouldn't you be?

I don't follow his method, I do, however, use some of his techniques mixed in with my own, and some of Craig Cameron's to start and train horses...


----------



## churumbeque

wyominggrandma said:


> hmm, I think everyone should read about the program that the link was posted. What the owner wrote goes in direct conflict of the pre boot camp instructions. Makes me think there is alot more questionable truth of the story from the owner, wonder what else she is withholding: from the owners own words: I've been getting him ready by cutting way back on his feed and hay. And he is slimming down and his naughty energy is a tiny bit reduced yet, this is directly from the Academy information page:"While we ask that you don’t work with your horse prior to training, to best ensure he leaves the ranch in good weight, we encourage you to generously feed him before dropping him off at the ranch. Due to the program’s intensity, it is best if the horse is fleshy and a little fat coming into the program. If you’ve underfed your horse and he’s skinny, he’ll have a much harder time gaining weight while in training. Remember, horses are worked six days a week, for at least two hours a day. While your horse will certainly be fed a high quality forage and grain, he’ll burn a lot of calories during training. If the horse comes into the program a little fat, by the end of the 6-week course, he’ll have a perfect body condition score and be in good weight."
> 
> 
> Hmm, maybe the owner needs to be more truthful, since she obviously did something before she even sent the horse away... Maybe she knows more than she is saying, maybe she knows exactly what happened, but the real truth doesn't make for good reading or "feel sorry for me" information.
> As I stated before, I don't have anything for or against CA.. Trainers train based on what works for them. I feel his letter, though a bit "hot" is his right. Plus, it was posted on HIS page, he has the right to write as he wants.But in typical "feeding frenzy" on the internet and different forums, even his letter is being judged. The conversation between the owner and CA was between them and if it had been left between them all this would be a moot point. But, the owner chose to keep the "frenzy" going by her posts and CA or any trainer has the right to say what he/she needs to to inform the public Frenzy Feeders his side.


 On her web site her horse was more than a little plump. She is feeding it too much especially for a horse not getting any exercise. I don't think the woman has even said much about the horse dying and nothing disparaging. it is people on forums like this that are making a big deal about it.


----------



## Foxtail Ranch

I know Clinton's response was angry. He should have been more professional. However, I have gotten upset before and lost my temper when unjustly attacked.. If there was any suspicion on the part of the owner, then why not investigate? Instead, no investigation, just insinuation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## churumbeque

ropinbiker said:


> I don't feel CA's response was anything like the "trainer who's name can't be mentioned.." --- he offered her a $25000 horse, he has talked to her on 3 occasions to attempt to fix the problem --- he did say others without a working knowledge of the situation should keep out and shut up...he didn't "ban" anyone from anything and he didn't say if you don't agree with me then you are stupid, etc. He was blunt and a bit on the defense, but I ask, wouldn't you be?
> 
> I don't follow his method, I do, however, use some of his techniques mixed in with my own, and some of Craig Cameron's to start and train horses...


 Ok I'll ask. Why is there a trainer that we can't mantion? Hpw would I know not to menttion his name?


----------



## JustDressageIt

Palomine said:


> And more than likely he threatened owner too, with being sued.


That is a very big, bold statement for a third party to make. How on Earth would. You know if he "threatened" the owner with being sued?


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

JustDressageIt said:


> That is a very big, bold statement for a third party to make. How on Earth would. You know if he "threatened" the owner with being sued?


Pretty sure Palomine only made that insuation because she doesn't like CA and not only thinks he's a fool, but a snake oil salesman, so why not add "sue-happy" and/or "threatening" to that illustrious résumé?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JustDressageIt

busysmurf said:


> For future reference, I've noticed the OP tends to find "shock" stories, post them, act as though she knows all the facts, and jump to conclusions without knowing all the info.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/horse-abuser-wi-150770/
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-protection/horses-chased-death-texas-august-27-a-136050/
> 
> Chicken Little anyone??


Ohhhhhhh all starting to make sense. Was wondering why she had posted this:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-boa...ugher-terribly-rude-164250/page2/#post2067617

Suggesting that the OP's (who is having BO problems) horse may be killed, poisoned, or her tack tampered with.


----------



## horsecrazygirl

Oh drama, I thought I escaped when i decided to start homeschooling in high school.
I guess not.

We don't know what happened. At all. I am sure none of us were there, therefore we can't really say who is right or wrong. Though, with all the posts on FB and CA website, I still feel like this is all for drama or publicity. I mean she is a breeder. If she didn't want the horse for herself personally she could have sold it. Second, the thing about her not wanting a QH, If you look on her website of "their horses" she has a QH, TWH, draft and a friesian. So i really don't even know what to believe anymore. I just really wish I could have some straight facts.


----------



## churumbeque

horsecrazygirl said:


> Oh drama, I thought I escaped when i decided to start homeschooling in high school.
> I guess not.
> 
> We don't know what happened. At all. I am sure none of us were there, therefore we can't really say who is right or wrong. Though, with all the posts on FB and CA website, I still feel like this is all for drama or publicity. I mean she is a breeder. If she didn't want the horse for herself personally she could have sold it. Second, the thing about her not wanting a QH, If you look on her website of "their horses" she has a QH, TWH, draft and a friesian. So i really don't even know what to believe anymore. I just really wish I could have some straight facts.


 She said she did need a pony.


----------



## horsecrazygirl

churumbeque said:


> She said she did need a pony.


If she did need a pony I don't see what the problem is. I think you mean she didn't?
He wasn't going to give her Mindy. He was using her as a hight comparison.
If he did offer her a pony, she could have still taken it and SOLD it. That is a lot of money. I would never pay that much for a horse but some would.


----------



## TTristan788

I havent read much of this thread but what I can say is, Things happen, people die in training too! Crossfit, Basic training, boot camp, hell when I was in high school Drum Corps was a big thing and I remember a kid nearly dying in practice there. Everyone is diffrent we all have medical conditions and different limits for physical activities. Animals are no diffrent and while I do believe that CA and the DUH methods can be physically straining on horses but SO CAN BOOT CAMP! What do we do when we have a problem child? We send his *** to boot camp. So why so much drama and turmoil when a horse dies and not for a human? :think:


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## Muppetgirl

Quiet honestly between the two of them, owner and trainer I just see them playing 'WHO CAN YELL THE LOUDEST' :wink:

Leave them to it..........


----------



## EliRose

Allison Finch said:


> I can't offer an opinion about the death of the horse....because I don't know what caused it.
> 
> I can't offer an opinion of the training center or its reputation....because I know nothing about it.
> 
> I can't offer an opinion of the owner.....because I refuse to let facebook make me think I now completely know someone.
> 
> 
> I know very little about CA and his methods.
> 
> *BUT, what I can offer an opinion of (and have) is what is right before me, written in his own hand, evidently. His answer to the whole thing. THAT I see. It absolutely reminds me of similar rude rants posted by another "trainer" whose very mention is forbidden here. Very similar......*


Am I right in assuming it is a certain YT "non-public figure"? :lol:
That was exactly who I was picturing during the rant! Because that was a rant, not a professional public statement. CA is going to regret his word choice in the future.


----------



## nvr2many

^^ I think it starts with an R, lol. :hide:


----------



## Mochachino

Hmmm....R you say....:think: I must have missed something big before I joined here.


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## Iseul

What I'm still not getting is why the owner is being bad mouthed..?

She said nothing bad on her facebook except her spiritual/religious beliefs and her despair for her horse. Not one post I read mentioned him in a bad light.

Owner did not literally start any of the drama, people on her facebook (and from threads like such) took her sorrows, twisted it, and took it out on CA.

Soo..why are we still complaining and gossiping about the Owner of said dead horse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RunWalk

greentree said:


> Methinks he doth protest too loudly... To cover himself, the necropsy should have been done by him, then he could have called the owner, told her her horse died of X... no nasty rumors.


You can't just get a necropsy on someone else's horse. If she refused, what is he supposed to do? That alone would be a basis for a law suit.


----------



## Palomine

What I find interesting about this, is how many are forgetting the horse that has died. 

The fact that no one can go to his place in TX, that only 3 phone calls are made during the 6 weeks, that you can take no one to go with you when you pick up your horse since they may have "concerns" about what they see? And that you can't visit your horse at all?

Academy Horses

4714 dollars, for 6 weeks? 

The horse is dead. But apparently because owner is out there, that is perfectly acceptable.

Guess those of you who think CA is all that and a slice of white bread, would be fine if it was your horse that was killed? Maybe a badge of honor?

And the owner has not done one thing wrong, she did not attack him, she was grieving for her horse. He is the one that is in the wrong. Not her.


----------



## Palomine

I’ve heard that horses that aren’t used to being worked every day often develop girth gall. Is this true? And if so, what exactly is girth gall?
It’s common for horses to develop girth gall – sores from the girth rubbing behind their elbow because they haven’t been ridden very much. When colts are started at the ranch, seven out of ten of them on average will develop girth gall. The area behind the horse’s elbow is soft and tender like a baby’s bottom, so oftentimes when the horse gets girthed up and really worked, they get sore. It’s not a major problem, in most cases you can put Vetericyn and Corona on it and it’ll heal just fine. In more severe cases, the horse will have to be off work for a week or two to let the sore heal. In both cases, when the horse is back to full health, they very rarely develop girth gall again because the area has toughened up. It’s kind of like if you are an office worker and one day you’re asked to dig ditches. Your hands would be blistered within an hour from handling the shovel because they’re not used to manual labor – they’re soft and tender. But after a few weeks of digging ditches, your hands will be covered in calluses and not be bothered by handling the shovel at all because they’ve toughened up.

This is from his FAQ page. 7 out of 10 horses develop girth gall? 


And again from his FAQ page. Who in the heck advocates not feeding grain until after second week during intensive training?

Q: A: 
What will my horse be fed?
Your horse will be fed free-choice hay, including both alfalfa and grass hay. Starting after the second week of training, or when the horse is doing well mentally – he’s not hot or nervous, he will receive grain twice daily. Our grain of choice is ADM’s SENIORGLO. Downunder Horsemanship will safely incorporate grain into the horse’s diet. Therefore, there is no need to change your horse’s grain before bringing him to the ranch.


Horses aren't hot or nervous? Please.


----------



## franknbeans

Palomine said:


> What I find interesting about this, is how many are forgetting the horse that has died.
> 
> The fact that no one can go to his place in TX, that only 3 phone calls are made during the 6 weeks, that you can take no one to go with you when you pick up your horse since they may have "concerns" about what they see? And that you can't visit your horse at all?
> 
> Academy Horses
> 
> 4714 dollars, for 6 weeks?
> 
> The horse is dead. But apparently because owner is out there, that is perfectly acceptable.
> 
> Guess those of you who think CA is all that and a slice of white bread, would be fine if it was your horse that was killed? Maybe a badge of honor?
> 
> *And the owner has not done one thing wrong, she did not attack him, she was grieving for her horse. He is the one that is in the wrong. Not her.*



And you have evidence of this?? Really? Again, you are stating things as fact that have not been proven to be so.

How much the program costs has NOTHING to do with this at all. Some people, who have a rank horse (which this program is SPECIFICALLY for) will spend as much $$ as they can to make Pookie a loveable poneh. That is none of our business, nor does it have anything to do with this discussion.


----------



## franknbeans

Palomine said:


> I don't think highly of the vast majority of the clinicians.
> 
> Why?
> 
> Because I haven't seen anyone that I thought came out of one of their clinics that had any sense. PP, CA , JL or whomever.
> 
> Lots of gimmicks, lots of cute parlor tricks, lots of things to buy. But too many seem to come out with nothing in terms of horse sense.
> 
> Are there people who have benefited? Probably. Have I met any? No.
> 
> The things that I see their devotees doing are unsafe, unsound, and downright dangerous in many cases.
> 
> In what world, is there a practical use for teaching a horse to jump up on platform? I could maybe see this if people still hauled their horse in the back of pickup, (well, some do still but not usually seen now) and you had no earth ramp to walk it up. Then it might have practical use.
> 
> But other than that? Nope.
> 
> Same with running around playing games with horse. No practical use.
> 
> I grew up around good horsemen. That knew what they were doing and were safe, honest and knew horses. Their advice was advice you could rely on, and that you could use. It was sound advice from their many years of experience with horses.
> 
> These people have made a killing out of people who many times, have little real experience with horses, and who will fall for anything, and pay dearly for it too.
> 
> They are snake oil salesmen. Nothing more, nothing less.


So, none of them have a single thing to offer? Personally, I have watched many of them and see many parallels between some of their methods and the good old horsemen I have known. I like to have lots of options when working with my horses, and feel they each have something I may be able to use. I prefer not to limit myself and keep an open mind to things that I may use now or in the future. It is my opinion that your abilities are limited when you do not stay open to new things. Sure, sometimes you have to cut through the showmanship, but many times there is something of value there to take away. Obviously others share my views or these guys would not be so popular.


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## GotaDunQH

Here's my two cents and it will be short and sweet:

Yep, the owner was a loon but the horse world is FULL of crazy owners. People are bad mouthing her, judging her based on her FB page...yet Clinton is God. Hmmm...ok.

Then you have Clinton, whose ego is the size of the state he lives in. Ego has no biz in the horse world, yet it is rampant....and it REALLY comes to the HORSE...and what these egos can do to a horse. I've never liked CA....his reiners all bowed up in the neck and backed off in the face....western version of hyperflexion. I like him even less now.

A horse died...the true story HOW will never be known unless the people at the farm give details. Was the horse tied? Was the horse NOT tied? If it was me and I owned the place, you bet your bottom dollar I would be talking to the LAST person that had contact with that horse.

SO you have a whack job owner and an egotistical trainer...makes for great reading and speculation.

As for the offer of the $25K pony and people berating the owner for not accepting it? It's not her style of horse...it's that friggin' simple! It's like offering a Grand Prix Dressage person a $25K barrel horse. No thanks, but I'll take that $25K in cash instead...thank you.


----------



## Maple

Palomine said:


> I’ve heard that horses that aren’t used to being worked every day often develop girth gall. Is this true? And if so, what exactly is girth gall?
> 
> *Girth Galls are not uncommon in any equestrian sport, I don't know how you expect CA to avoid this?*
> 
> 
> And again from his FAQ page. Who in the heck advocates not feeding grain until after second week during intensive training?
> 
> *It is definitely not uncommon for horses to be on reduced feed until they step up their training. Plenty of horses get by quite happily on hay alone, and I know numerous who get no hard feeds at all. *
> 
> *I would also think he is insinuating that the time gives the horse a chance to settle in and become accustom to the new way of being handled. From what I can gather these are spoiled little monsters who get away with murder? *
> 
> 
> Horses aren't hot or nervous? Please.





Palomine said:


> 4714 dollars, for 6 weeks?
> 
> *How much somebody pays for a horse to be trained is none of our business. If they've got the cash to do it, why not. Any of the TBs can easily run up a bill of €3000 in one month depending on different expenses. *
> 
> Guess those of you who think CA is all that and a slice of white bread, would be fine if it was your horse that was killed? Maybe a badge of honor?
> 
> *Bit of a random generalization? It's a silly statement IMO that you consider because people are not agreeing with you that you think this is the case. *
> 
> And the owner has not done one thing wrong, she did not attack him, she was grieving for her horse. He is the one that is in the wrong. Not her.
> 
> *That is YOUR opinion. Others are entitled to theirs.*





GotaDunQH said:


> Yep, the owner was a loon but the horse world is FULL of crazy owners. People are bad mouthing her, judging her based on her FB page...yet Clinton is God. Hmmm...ok.
> 
> *I don't think anybody is saying CA is God... infact I think he has received a lot of flack, and see a lot of people saying otherwise.*
> 
> .


 
Think I'm beyond My two cents worth at this stage.....


----------



## wyominggrandma

CA was under no obligation to offer the owner anything at all, even though the horse died. He did it to be professional... I am sure he was upset at the outcome also. I am sure, like most trainers, they do not enjoy making a phone call to an owner.She did not accept it, even though she could have sold the CA horse and had money to buy another Fresian or big horse. Her horse was not worth $25,000 cash, but a trained horse might be something she could have benefited from. It was stated that not letting anyone accompany an owner to pick up their horse is a bad thing? Why? Can you imagine the drama queen on this thread or any drama queen being allowed to show up with an owner at a training facility and if they saw a pile of poop on the ground would surely go home and go on facebook and forums and say the animals are being abused and living in dirty stalls?I imagine that rule is in place to protect the facility from haters and drama queens, I imagine the same rules apply to any training facility. If you send your dog out to be trained, when you go pick it up, they want the OWNER to come ALONE to be able to watch what training has been done and do work with the dog, not have the "armchair quarterback" that is accompanying them decide the animal has not been trained to "their " specifications or they way they would train an animal.Having an armchair quarterback whispering in the owners ear about how "they would train differently or the animal isn't trained like so and so would do it would certainly be distracting".
If you have a pet that has surgery and dies, you still have to pay the surgery bill and everything that the pet used before it died. Vets very rarely give discounts, they would go broke. Vets are not God, just like trainers are not God. Yet, because CA offered the owner a horse, that is an action of quilt? Umm, think not.They can't predict what is gonna happen with a horse or pet. Life happens, accidents happer. The one person on this thread who is so outspoken and so against CA according to her says her dad has been training for years and she is a master groomer for horses. My question is: has she NEVER EVER seen a horse die from a training accident? Whether during training, while jumping, while being shown? I bet if she is honest, she will admit she has seen horses that have died during training. I think most of us have: from broken legs to other injuries. It happens.If she or anyone else who is so negative about this trainer has never seen an animal die from an accident, then they are lucky.
The owners horse was a spoiled, dangerous brat that she or others could no longer handle, had dangerous bucking/bolting issues, from her own words. 
When her big fat spoiled brat horse, or anyone elses for that matter go into an intensive training program, of course there will be saddle galls. If you are fat and out of shape and start preparing for a marathon, even with the best shoes and sock, your gonna get blisters. 
After this thread, for fun I have gone onto other well known trainers sites and read their programs and details. Both NH and just trainers for various types of training. Though some try to soften the details of what the horse is going through or going to go through, they basically all give the same types of information. Its not just CA, its ALL trainers. When you sign a contract, you know, or at least should read, every word, every line so you know exactly what your horse will be dealing with. Especially dangerous ones.
We all have our opinions, and we usually stick by them. However, drama and controvery seem to be very important to a few posters.
Again, I am not a CA fan or fan of NH much at all. However, I have seen people drag trainers through the mud for no reason than THEY think the trainer is trash. Very sad.


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## GotaDunQH

^ I don't know how your trainer operates, but my trainer does not have rules about the owner only showing up alone, people bring friends all the time. He has nothing to hide. And NONE....absolutely NONE of my horses have EVER had saddle galls and they have been worked hard. As a matter of fact, my trainer has never had a client's horse gall before either. And he's not some casual fluff trainer....he's a guy with 14 show horses, IN TRAINING, and does all the riding himself. He's out there 12 hours a day...in the trenches. He pulls no punches, is honest as the day is long...yet he has no arrogance and knows how to deal with clients...whether they be crazy or not. He's had one horse die....from an HYPP attack....dropped like a stone and dead within a minute.


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## bsms

I've never watched a CA video. The first book I bought after we got horses was by him, but I didn't get anything useful out of it. When it comes to trainers, I prefer local trainers with good reputations to someone on TV.

That said, I also get sick of the people who think horses never die, or that training is done with lots of hugs and kisses and Walt Disney behind the camera. I also get tired of the wimpy, corporate statements of apology. I'm always reminded of the little old lady who received a very nice reply. Paperclipped to the back was a note: "Send the %&#-%^@#$ "The Letter"!

Our society could use some more emphasis that bad things happen, and that life isn't fair. I was talking to a paralegal the other night. She said where we live, juries almost never give any awards based on 'pain & suffering'. When she talks to the jurors after the trial, they usually tell her that they have a sick parent too, or have a kid with problems, or have experienced other problems in life - and that is the way life is. You don't get paid extra because your life has problems.

That can be a bit unfair at times, but I get tired of the "I'm owed a happy life" attitude that this owner projects.


----------



## texasgal

Palomine said:


> What I find interesting about this, is how many are forgetting the horse that has died.
> 
> The fact that no one can go to his place in TX, that only 3 phone calls are made during the 6 weeks, that you can take no one to go with you when you pick up your horse since they may have "concerns" about what they see? And that you can't visit your horse at all?
> 
> Academy Horses
> 
> 4714 dollars, for 6 weeks?
> 
> The horse is dead. But apparently because owner is out there, that is perfectly acceptable.
> 
> Guess those of you who think CA is all that and a slice of white bread, would be fine if it was your horse that was killed? Maybe a badge of honor?
> 
> And the owner has not done one thing wrong, she did not attack him, she was grieving for her horse. He is the one that is in the wrong. Not her.


1. We don't know that a horse was "killed" .. a horse died. 

2. Knowing these things about the academy, owner CHOSE to send her horse there.

3. I've not said anything bad about the owner. It's all the crazy people that don't know what happened any more than I do, yet spout "horse killer" all over the internet that I take exception to.

4. Again.. a horse died. We will never know the cause of that death because the owner declined the necropsy. She didn't want to know. She might have found a neurolgical reason for his BEHAVIOR and/or his death. But we'll never know.

5. $4700 is not enough money to fix a spoiled, illl-mannered, dangerous horse for someone who may or may not be able to understand how to keep the horse from reverting back to spoiled and dangerous .. imo. I HATE dealing with other people's problem horses .. probably why I'm not a trainer! lol

6. Finally, without any personal knowledge of the facts all we know is:

Owner of dangerous horse understood and chose to send to the program.
Horse died.
CA refunded, spoke to owner, sent flowers, made other offers.
Owner refused other offers and shared on facebook.
People on the internet do what some people on the internet do.
(see signature for explanation)


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## texasgal

What happened to my signature?? wow... ok.. got it back.


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## Farmchic

anyone else having problems finding the statement on CA's website?


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## texasgal

It's gone. came down yesterday.


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## gypsygirl

i used to be a dog trainer. when we took dogs for 2, 4, or 6 week periods to do intensive training with they would be doing something with a trainer for AT LEAST 2 hours a day, if not more. whether it be handling, walking, obedience training, socialization, etc. we did not allow owners to come visit their dog during that time. it honestly could make the dogs anxious, especially if they were feeding off of their owners emotions. we did not do it because we had something to hide, we did it because it was better for their training to have consistent people handling them at all times. 

we only let the owner(s) come pick the dog up. its really no one elses business !


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## Cat

I'm surprised by everyone caught up on girth galls. They happen - especially on out of shape horses. I know from personal experience that we can ride 2-3 hour trail rides and never have a girth gall, but the first serious ride that lasts longer and includes fast gaits and more serious steep hills - at least one of our horses will get a gall. The rounder and fluffier the horse the horse the more likely it is to happen. 

I can only imagine what trainers taking on spoiled horses who don't know the meaning of work have happen the first time seriously asked to move out.


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## Mochachino

Farmchic said:


> anyone else having problems finding the statement on CA's website?


I figured that he would have taken it down. Like I said he should have wrote it and slept on it before posting it. I think he wrote that as a knee jerk reaction, but should have stepped back, took a few breaths and proceeded when he was calm about it.


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## GotaDunQH

gypsygirl said:


> i used to be a dog trainer. when we took dogs for 2, 4, or 6 week periods to do intensive training with they would be doing something with a trainer for AT LEAST 2 hours a day, if not more. whether it be handling, walking, obedience training, socialization, etc. we did not allow owners to come visit their dog during that time. it honestly could make the dogs anxious, especially if they were feeding off of their owners emotions. we did not do it because we had something to hide, we did it because it was better for their training to have consistent people handling them at all times.
> 
> we only let the owner(s) come pick the dog up. its really no one elses business !


And that's the way YOU choose to run your operation. Personally, I would NEVER use a trainer that DID NOT allow be to go see my horse. It's my horse, I have a LOT of money invested in my horse....you bet your a*ss I want to see him.


----------



## Allison Finch

RunWalk said:


> You can't just get a necropsy on someone else's horse. If she refused, what is he supposed to do? That alone would be a basis for a law suit.


Of course you can. 

While I have never had a horse in training die on me, I know other trainers who have. They ALWAYS had a necropsy done, so that they could tell the owner whatever they could. I can't even imagine not doing that, for no other reason than CYI. Not doing it fueled my suspicions.

As a trainer, the horse is in your care and is YOUR responsibility.


----------



## Cat

GotaDunQH said:


> And that's the way YOU choose to run your operation. Personally, I would NEVER use a trainer that DID NOT allow be to go see my horse. It's my horse, I have a LOT of money invested in my horse....you bet your a*ss I want to see him.


Well, yes - that is the way she and other trainers can choose to run their business and the beauty of it is they tell you up front so you can pick a trainer with policies that you are comfortable with. But I think the point was those policies aren't exactly rare among trainers and thus does not automatically mean something wrong is going on. She just explained nicely why some trainers prefer policies like that.

Personally I also would not send my horse someplace I could not check up on him and get regular updates. But I'm not automatically suspicious of trainers who have policies I do not agree with either.


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## Cat

Allison Finch said:


> Of course you can.
> 
> While I have never had a horse in training die on me, I know other trainers who have. They ALWAYS had a necropsy done, so that they could tell the owner whatever they could. I can't even imagine not doing that, for no other reason than CYI. Not doing it fueled my suspicions.
> 
> As a trainer, the horse is in your care and is YOUR responsibility.


That is a dangerous line they are walking if they do it without owner's permission unless they have it outlined in the contract that they will do one if anything should happen to the horse. The horse may be in their care but they are not the owners. Many owners would be fine wit it - but it only takes one to decide to sue over it.


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## bsms

GotaDunQH said:


> ...I would NEVER use a trainer that DID NOT allow be to go see my horse...


But then, you aren't the sort who would go to a TV trainer to begin with. The local trainer I've hired before wanted the owner there, but she isn't a TV personality. She doesn't care if you figure out a lot of what she does is pretty normal horse training. And she doesn't have to worry about 300 people showing up BECAUSE she is a TV trainer.

I can't imagine sending my horse to a TV trainer, and my horses are light-years below what you deal with. And if it is described as a "boot camp", then the target customer is someone who doesn't know squat about training horses. Someone sending their horse to CA is paying for the TV fame, not for good training. IMHO.


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## Allison Finch

Cat said:


> That is a dangerous line they are walking if they do it without owner's permission unless they have it outlined in the contract that they will do one if anything should happen to the horse. The horse may be in their care but they are not the owners. Many owners would be fine wit it - but it only takes one to decide to sue over it.


If they have nothing to hide, what is dangerous about it?

With humans, if there is anything suspicious about a death, the medical examiner mandates an autopsy. People would be able to hide all manner of murder if not. Trainers too.....


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## Cat

Its still a medical procedure on someone else's horse. There are laws against that - that is why its dangerous. A lot of vets would not do it without the expressed permission from the owner. And yes - human laws are different than animal laws since we are not "property". That horse was someone else's property and the owner of said property said no.

I just don't understand how its CA who has something to hide when its the owner who refused it?


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## Clayton Taffy

I asked my husband, a DVM, if a trainer brought in a dead horse or dog and asked you to do a necropsy, would he do it? He did say no. I said the animal is dead who cares, he still said no, not without owners permission, no matter who is paying. 

However with all the disclamers and warnings and secrecy at the CA facility, you would think that in the contract it would discuss a necropsy possablity, and to get permission ahead of time. He seems to want to cover his A in every other way around the farm.

I would never take any animal of mine to any training facility if I was not able to walk on the premises at any time I chose, although I have always called first and was always told fine.


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## dbarabians

thanks for clearing that up Taffy Clayton.
I would never send a horse to be trained if I could not have access to the animal at all times.
CA has a lot of devotees that would probably show up and interupt the work and disrupt the training sessions. I could see why there would be a no visitor policy. You probably have to go thru a manned or electronic gate to access the inside of the ranch. Shalom


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## Honeysuga

If you are doing nothing wrong and have nothing to hide, why not allow people to check on their valuable livestock? Why insist they show up alone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dustbunny

I have not read all replys but will just say...I think his statement said it all...
AND I would have taken the horse offered.


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## GotaDunQH

Cat said:


> Well, yes - that is the way she and other trainers can choose to run their business and the beauty of it is they tell you up front so you can pick a trainer with policies that you are comfortable with. *But I think the point was those policies aren't exactly rare among trainers* and thus does not automatically mean something wrong is going on. She just explained nicely why some trainers prefer policies like that.
> 
> Personally I also would not send my horse someplace I could not check up on him and get regular updates. But I'm not automatically suspicious of trainers who have policies I do not agree with either.


It certainly is rare in my neck of the woods and the AQHA circuit I show on. I don't know any trainer....amongst the MANY I know across the country that has this policy....none.


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## GotaDunQH

bsms said:


> But then, you aren't the sort who would go to a TV trainer to begin with. The local trainer I've hired before wanted the owner there, but she isn't a TV personality. She doesn't care if you figure out a lot of what she does is pretty normal horse training. And she doesn't have to worry about 300 people showing up BECAUSE she is a TV trainer.
> 
> I can't imagine sending my horse to a TV trainer, and my horses are light-years below what you deal with. And if it is described as a "boot camp", then the target customer is someone who doesn't know squat about training horses. Someone sending their horse to CA is paying for the TV fame, not for good training. IMHO.


 
Love this post! I think people are drawn to his name and his TV stardom and that's why they send their horses there...because they can say that their horse went to CA's farm....whoop de doo. But the reality is....the 6 six week program price is totally ridiculous...and it ridiculous for the fact that it's HIS place with HIS name on it, and HIS students do all the work. For that amount of money...I don't want a student touching my horse!!! I want the real deal.


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## GamingGrrl

But for the average trainer, only clients are going to show up. For Clinton, every single fangirl within a 500 mile radius is going to be showing up. It doesn't surprise me that he doesn't allow people on the property. Try to train a horse with a crowd of strangers interfering and trying to talk to you about how Fluffy is doing so well on your methods. Even if its not Clinton but other trainers that work under him/for him, people will show up, fangirl, and generally be a nuisance. He's a celebrity, not exclusively a trainer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clayton Taffy

I called my friend who took her horse to Josh Lyons, down in TN, I asked her if Lyons had a similar policy as CA, as to no availability to her horse. She said no, on the contrary, she was encouraged to come down and take some lessons while her horse was there. And as for picking up or dropping the horse off at the ranch, there were no restrictions what so ever.

I can see restrictions to the general public, of course, but restricted access of an owner, never heard of it before. At the very most there could be a call before you arrive policy, and you won't get a private guided tour, but you can see your horse.


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## apachiedragon

One other thing that has been bugging me. I keep seeing everyone mentioning the "$25k horse" that he was going to give her. IMO, its only a $25k horse because he slapped his name on it. That same horse trained by a non-famous trainer to do the same things, might very well only sell for a fraction of that in this economy. He doesn't specialize in a specific show category that makes these horses worth that kind of money. These are just plain old all-around pleasure type horses. If people are willing to pay that kind of money to him just for his name, then great, but what if she HAD accepted the horse, and then found she couldn't get more than a couple thousand for it at best, and was then having to pay its upkeep in the meantime, while trying to find a buyer for a horse she didn't want and didn't need? I might also add, this video describing the Signature horses states very plainly that they are trained by his clinicians, not by himself. Its very likely he had not laid a hand on the horse he was offering her.


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## GotaDunQH

GamingGrrl said:


> But for the average trainer, only clients are going to show up. For Clinton, every single fangirl within a 500 mile radius is going to be showing up. It doesn't surprise me that he doesn't allow people on the property. Try to train a horse with a crowd of strangers interfering and trying to talk to you about how Fluffy is doing so well on your methods. Even if its not Clinton but other trainers that work under him/for him, people will show up, fangirl, and generally be a nuisance. He's a celebrity, not exclusively a trainer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My point is....if I sent a horse there...I'm not just some "people"....I'm the horse owner! Oh...and he does train horses with a crowd of strangers...it's called one of his clinics....LOL. That's probably the ONLY time he does training.


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## GamingGrrl

No need to get snippy :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Honeysuga

GotaDunQH said:


> My point is....if I sent a horse there...I'm not just some "people"....I'm the horse owner! Oh...and he does train horses with a crowd of strangers...it's called one of his clinics....LOL. That's probably the ONLY time he does training.


Amen! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH

GamingGrrl said:


> No need to get snippy :lol:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not being snippy...just being realistic...that's all. But being a celebrity or TV trainer as BSMS so aptly said...comes with a price....a HUGE one and you best be prepared to pay that price. Is it right that celebrities have to deal with this? Well no, but it's the job description and it will NEVER change....and they know it going in. And I honestly feel like that is why people shell out far too much money to send a horse to his boot camp...it's the WHOLE celebrity attached to it. When down the road, is some REAL trainer that rides these rank ones ON A DAILY BASIS....for a price that doesn't require a second mortage on the house. And they have their OWN hands on....not students....LOL.


----------



## Maple

The trainer I work for allows visits, if previously planned and organised, drop in visits are not at all tolerated and we always like to know exactly how many people we are catering for. We have about 100 horses riding out every day - could you imagine the chaos that would ensue if several groups turned up at the same time wanting to see their horse work? In a large establishment, routine is everything. If there is a hitch in the daily schedule, it throws the entire yard off, not just that one horse. 

As to is reasoning behind not allowing other visitors, I don't know. Maybe it is due to time restrictions, maybe it is for security purposes? If I owned a large yard I wouldn't want random people wandering around - I say there is plenty of tack there that is worth a pretty penny... and then you'd probably find some animal rights nutso who wants to have a hissy fit because ol Teddy in the stall on the right is resting his leg - and in nutso's head the leg is obviously broken. 

The girth galls thing - I've seen them on riding school ponies. I've seen it on hunters. Over the years I've seen it on all shapes and sizes. These things happen, it is not something that only pertains to CA, so I'm not quite sure why it is adding fuel to the fire. This is getting to the point where it's just a witch hunt where people are feeling the need to throw everything at the kitchen sink at him. You can't really compare CA to the everyday trainer down the road - if this happened to that trainer would this even be up for discussion at the moment?


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## GotaDunQH

Maple said:


> The trainer I work for allows visits, if previously planned and organised, drop in visits are not at all tolerated and we always like to know exactly how many people we are catering for. We have about 100 horses riding out every day - could you imagine the chaos that would ensue if several groups turned up at the same time wanting to see their horse work? In a large establishment, routine is everything. If there is a hitch in the daily schedule, it throws the entire yard off, not just that one horse.
> 
> As to is reasoning behind not allowing other visitors, I don't know. Maybe it is due to time restrictions, maybe it is for security purposes? *If I owned a large yard I wouldn't want random people wandering around -* I say there is plenty of tack there that is worth a pretty penny... and then you'd probably find some animal rights nutso who wants to have a hissy fit because ol Teddy in the stall on the right is resting his leg - and in nutso's head the leg is obviously broken.
> 
> The girth galls thing - I've seen them on riding school ponies. I've seen it on hunters. Over the years I've seen it on all shapes and sizes. These things happen, it is not something that only pertains to CA, so I'm not quite sure why it is adding fuel to the fire. This is getting to the point where it's just a witch hunt where people are feeling the need to throw everything at the kitchen sink at him. *You can't really compare CA to the everyday trainer down the road - if this happened to that trainer would this even be up for discussion at the moment?[/*QUOTE]
> 
> Who's talking about random people here? No one is talking about randome people...we're talking about horse owners!
> 
> Like I stated earlier....for me, its the man and his methods I don't like. If you are going to be a TV trainer like he is, then YOU have chosen to be in the public and deal with the public. Take a course in human behavior or sociology or something to enhance your people skills, because what he does...does involve the public! It does not take a rocket scientist to figure this out. He needs to put his friggin ego in his back pocket, learn how to train horses to work off his leg instead of his hand...and it's all good.


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## GotaDunQH

apachiedragon said:


> One other thing that has been bugging me. I keep seeing everyone mentioning the "$25k horse" that he was going to give her. IMO, its only a $25k horse because he slapped his name on it. That same horse trained by a non-famous trainer to do the same things, might very well only sell for a fraction of that in this economy. He doesn't specialize in a specific show category that makes these horses worth that kind of money. These are just plain old all-around pleasure type horses. If people are willing to pay that kind of money to him just for his name, then great, but what if she HAD accepted the horse, and then found she couldn't get more than a couple thousand for it at best, and was then having to pay its upkeep in the meantime, while trying to find a buyer for a horse she didn't want and didn't need? I might also add, this video describing the Signature horses states very plainly that they are trained by his clinicians, not by himself. Its very likely he had not laid a hand on the horse he was offering her.
> 
> Clinton Anderson's Signature Horse.mov - YouTube


I saw that vid and if someone pays $25K for that horse, they are nuts. If that is the example of a $25K horse, I've got some nice swamp land in Alabama that you could put condos on for sale.


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## GotaDunQH

Maple said:


> The trainer I work for allows visits, if previously planned and organised, drop in visits are not at all tolerated and we always like to know exactly how many people we are catering for. We have about 100 horses riding out every day - could you imagine the chaos that would ensue if several groups turned up at the same time wanting to see their horse work? In a large establishment, routine is everything. If there is a hitch in the daily schedule, it throws the entire yard off, not just that one horse.
> 
> As to is reasoning behind not allowing other visitors, I don't know. Maybe it is due to time restrictions, maybe it is for security purposes? If I owned a large yard I wouldn't want random people wandering around - I say there is plenty of tack there that is worth a pretty penny... and then you'd probably find some animal rights nutso who wants to have a hissy fit because ol Teddy in the stall on the right is resting his leg - and in nutso's head the leg is obviously broken.
> 
> The girth galls thing - I've seen them on riding school ponies. I've seen it on hunters. Over the years I've seen it on all shapes and sizes. These things happen, it is not something that only pertains to CA, so I'm not quite sure why it is adding fuel to the fire. This is getting to the point where it's just a witch hunt where people are feeling the need to throw everything at the kitchen sink at him. *You can't really compare CA to the everyday trainer down the road -* if this happened to that trainer would this even be up for discussion at the moment?


Forgot to ask...why can't you compare him???? What, just because the trainer down the road doesn't have a microphone headset, someone to put on makeup before he hits the camera for his vids, and doesn't have a spotlight in his arena to "showcase" his act? No...you can't compare them because the trainer down the road ACTUALLY does something on a daily basis with hands on training, instead of checking his stock portfolio, or checking out his fan pages, or wondering when he's hitting the road for his next circus show and who's going to pick him up.


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## GotaDunQH

And just for the record, I have NO USE for ANY of the TV trainers.....any of them. Whatever happened to actually swinging a leg over and training one. There is no money in it....when you can take your "show" on the road, peddle wares, think of fancy names for inanimate objects to poke and prod your horse into submission, or cutsey games to play with your horse. FCS, just ride already....

And ya'll call the owner of the Friesian a nut job living in Wonderland??? LOLOLOL


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## Maple

Where did I say the owner is a random person? I was referring to the point where it was pointed out he requested the owner not bring guests.... 

I've never met him, know zero about his training/methods/if he's a prat or a saint. I am not a CA devotee who thinks the sun rises and sets out of his backside. What I do know, from working in yards in Europe and NA is that I can see his point in some cases. His yard is not a public riding school full of 20yo ponies. If his people skills arent up to speed? So be it, I've yet to meet a trainer who's main priority was makin small talk to owners.... their main focus tends to be "talking" to the four legged sort put in front of them. 

I've already seen that you dont like him... fair enough. I have yet to meet a Parelli horse who wasn't a prat... but I don't come on here to push the fact that I don't like Parelli because I know other people are entitled to their own beliefs and if it works for them who am I to judge?


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## bsms

Looking at the Signature Horse video, perhaps some money spent on RIDING lessons might be appropriate. I've been known to defend a chair seat, but this isn't quite what I have in mind :?


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## GotaDunQH

bsms said:


> Looking at the Signature Horse video, perhaps some money spent on RIDING lessons might be appropriate. I've been known to defend a chair seat, but this isn't quite what I have in mind :?


BSMS....don't sell yourself short...you have it all over both the owner and CA himself in this vid!


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## DraftyAiresMum

I think everyone is getting too worked up over this whole "boot camp" thing.

First, the lady whose horse died knew what she was getting into, as the contract clearly states everything. That being said, she CHOSE to send her horse there. She paid the money (and got it refunded after the death of her horse). Her money. Not yours. Not your parents'. So why do any of you care what CA charges for the "boot camp" and what is or isn't done in said "boot camp"? It has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand, which was originally the death of the horse and then morphed into CA's response.

Second, obviously some people believe that CA's Signature horses are worth $25K or he wouldn't be able to market or sell them. If he can get people to buy those horses for that much, more power to him. There's always people out there with more money than sense. Again, what does it have to do with you that you get so up in arms over it? 

I get that you guys don't like CA. That's your perogative. But give the guy a break. Obviously people like his methods, and that's their perogative. Him charging as much as he does and acting the way he does, doesn't affect you in any way shape or form...so let it go. At this point you're beating a dead horse (no pun intended) and it's just getting old.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH

bsms said:


> Looking at the Signature Horse video, perhaps some money spent on RIDING lessons might be appropriate. I've been known to defend a chair seat, but this isn't quite what I have in mind :?


 
OK....and notice where both of their hands are; the woman's hands-one up to the chin, the other grasping the rein. CA....both hands back in his gut....never mind the terrible out of balance position, forward leg and ineffectual seat.


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## GotaDunQH

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I think everyone is getting too worked up over this whole "boot camp" thing.
> 
> First, the lady whose horse died knew what she was getting into, as the contract clearly states everything. That being said, she CHOSE to send her horse there. She paid the money (and got it refunded after the death of her horse). Her money. Not yours. Not your parents'. So why do any of you care what CA charges for the "boot camp" and what is or isn't done in said "boot camp"? It has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand, which was originally the death of the horse and then morphed into CA's response.
> 
> Second, obviously some people believe that CA's Signature horses are worth $25K or he wouldn't be able to market or sell them. If he can get people to buy those horses for that much, more power to him. There's always people out there with more money than sense. Again, what does it have to do with you that you get so up in arms over it?
> 
> I get that you guys don't like CA. That's your perogative. But give the guy a break. Obviously people like his methods, and that's their perogative. Him charging as much as he does and acting the way he does, doesn't affect you in any way shape or form...so let it go. At this point you're beating a dead horse (no pun intended) and it's just getting old.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why should I give CA a break? Ye reap what you sow. And he gets $25K from starry-eyed followers you are buying into his celebrity and a piece of HIM.


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## Maple

I think I've come to the stage where i'm gonna eye roll to myself and bow out of the conversation. To each their own and all that


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## DraftyAiresMum

GotaDunQH said:


> Why should I give CA a break? Ye reap what you sow. And he gets $25K from starry-eyed followers you are buying into his celebrity and a piece of HIM.


Does it directly affect you in any way? Not likely. Can you choose to just shake your head at the lunacy of other people and go on about your life? Absolutely. But for some reason, you can't let it go. 

When I said "give the guy a break," I meant more in the form of "It isn't affecting you, so stop harping over it."

I honestly don't understand why everyone is getting their panties all in a bunch over all this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Does it directly affect you in any way? Not likely. Can you choose to just shake your head at the lunacy of other people and go on about your life? Absolutely. But for some reason, you can't let it go.
> 
> When I said "give the guy a break," I meant more in the form of "It isn't affecting you, so stop harping over it."
> 
> *I honestly don't understand why everyone is getting their panties all in a bunch over all this.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My last word on this...and just as you have been a part of this whole thread...so have I. Why do I care? Because it involves the horse industry as a whole.....an industry I have been a part of for 51 years. I'm not involved personally, but does that really matter? It does to me, because the horse industry gets a bad rap with scandal all the time....from race horses breaking down on world wide TV during TC time, from nefarious dirtbags offing expensive H/J horses for insurance money (and I worked for one of them many years ago), for vids of Big Lick trainers torturing horses, TV news showing horses being rescued from hoarders who have left them languish to die from starvation while they are getting 3 square meals a day....and so on and so on. So ya, I'm upset but you need not worry about it. You don't see the big picture....


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## Clayton Taffy

I don't see where anyone is getting upset, Funny you are using the same analogy as CA.:lol: For once, in a long while, on this forum, there is a normal conversation, without people throwing insults and snarks to each other.

I ask the same of you, what does it mater what people think of CA to you?
Does it affect you personally? If someone hated my favorite trainer, even that would not concern me, that is the trainers problem, not mine.
I am sure CA has enough PR people to handle this.
Like any public figure their are those that like, and those that don't, Obama, Tom Cruse, The Gov of your state, the Queen of England to name a few.

I find it quite interesting.
I couldn't pick CA out of a crowd of three, I couldn't tell you anything about him before yesterday. After this thread dies down, I probably won't think about him again.:wink:


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## bsms

I don't mind if CA charges and gets 25K for a horse, or whatever he can get for having his students train them. I wouldn't mind having 1/10 the salesman skills he has. And I agree that people can pay whatever they want.

However, I came across HF when doing web searches for a variety of horse riding and training issues. For months before I was a member, I'd read threads that came up in a search engine. Other horse forums also exist and give advice, but I decided to join THIS one because so many of the threads included level-headed advice.

My comment about learning to ride comes from personal experience. I bought Mia who was "perfect for a beginner", and she wasn't. Trying to learn to ride on her made her worse, and it reached the point of being dangerous. When I went to talk to the trainer who had worked with Trooper, I think she was pleasantly surprised when, after describing my problem, I asked for a recommendation for someone to teach me how to ride. "6-9 months from now, if my riding is better, then I'd like you to start work with Mia..."

Turned out it was 8 months. But without serious work on MY RIDING, no training was going to help Mia. Because MY RIDING was a big factor in HER problems. Not all of it, by any means. She'll always be a high-strung horse who seems to enjoy scaring herself. But a bad rider can ruin a good horse pretty fast. If the rider is leaning back when her horse needs to go up a steep grade, then someone needs to help her with her riding BEFORE she sinks $25K into a horse that may be ruined. Or even $1200, like I spent on Mia. :evil:

I don't enjoy confessing to stupidity and lack of ability. However, if there is even one old fart lurker who is about to do what I did, and who decides to take riding lessons FIRST...it will be worth it. Since CA showed a video about his Signature Horses that, IMHO, revealed a rider in need of lessons, I'm guessing he won't turn down $25,000 and insist they learn to ride better first. Maybe they will read it here, instead.


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## demonwolfmoon

GamingGrrl said:


> *But for the average trainer, only clients are going to show up.* For Clinton, every single fangirl within a 500 mile radius is going to be showing up. It doesn't surprise me that he doesn't allow people on the property. Try to train a horse with a crowd of strangers interfering and trying to talk to you about how Fluffy is doing so well on your methods. Even if its not Clinton but other trainers that work under him/for him, people will show up, fangirl, and generally be a nuisance. He's a celebrity, not exclusively a trainer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This. I worked as Security management for a long time, and you'd be surprised how OBNOXIOUS certain (entitled) people behave!!! My god, I've even had to call the police on people refusing to leave private property after being warned that they were trespassing, and wait for the police to escort them off, all while cursing me out and calling me ugly in foreign languages...

Imagine if I was a famous person handling that! Anything I did "wrong" to this entitled individual would be ALL OVER THE INTERWEBS! 

I am no fangirl, like I said, I don't know a thing about CA except for that he's famous with horsepeople....but I can see why some of these rules are in place. Other people would too, if they took the time to puzzle out the possibilities....


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## RunWalk

"No vet would ever ask me "is this your horse?"

Unless you have a signed and notarized authorization for treatment, your vet is looking to get sued, as are you. Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean it can't.


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## wyominggrandma

It happens alot, vets gets sued everyday for doing this exact thing.We can't even give information on an animal shots, illness, vaccinations, etc, unless we have the owners consent.If you are taking care of someones critters and the animal gets hurt, if you take animal into vet or have vet out, legally the vet can't treat the animal without owners consent. IF the vet does treat animal for something, the owner can sue and will win in court. 
I am sure some vets do this for clients they trust, doing autopsys for a dead animal that you are taking care of, treating an animal for the injury, etc. without the owners specific verbal okay, and maybe each state is different. 
Also, without an owners consent, a HUGE vet bill could be reached and if the vet did not get specific confirmation from an owner to treat or whatever for their animal, the vet can lose lots of money, since the owner never consented to pay for the work done.


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## rocelynwalker

GamingGrrl said:


> I looked at the horses owners FB page, it's filled with fairy and unicorn and butterfly pictures. She also made several suspect posts about waiting to hear if her horse was still alive and then another post about waiting for "the call".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
this horse may have had a previous condition that the owner knew of, and just used CA to cause a scandal, and make trouble


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## Foxhunter

I have trained horses for nigh on 50 years. When I was very involved in the racing industry I had the reputation of making good sensible horses from highly neurotic horses.
During this time I have never had a horse die on me because of the way it was being trained.

I am not a fan of either Parelli nor CA - there is a lot wrong with the way they train and in my never humble opinion they can be very muddling for the animal.

Sure thing that any horse can have an aneurism and drop dead but to _low_ tie a horse and leve it to graze is something that I would never do. 

I would have wanted someone to look at the cause of death. A broken neck is easy to see as is the place where an aneurism occurred.


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## franknbeans

Foxhunter-just curious-how do you SEE an aneurysm? Sure can't in people, and I question that you can in horses.

I also would clarify, that there is no proof that this horse dies as a result of the way it was being trained. You insinuated otherwise in the beginning of your post.


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## Muppetgirl

franknbeans said:


> Foxhunter-just curious-how do you SEE an aneurysm? Sure can't in people, and I question that you can in horses.
> 
> I also would clarify, that there is no proof that this horse dies as a result of the way it was being trained. You insinuated otherwise in the beginning of your post.


Frank, I think she meant with a necropsy of the brain????? To sight the aneurysm????


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## horselessmom

franknbeans said:


> Foxhunter-just curious-how do you SEE an aneurysm? Sure can't in people, and I question that you can in horses.
> 
> I also would clarify, that there is no proof that this horse dies as a result of the way it was being trained. You insinuated otherwise in the beginning of your post.


Cerebral aneurysms can be identified in autopsies / necropsies.


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## franknbeans

horselessmom said:


> Cerebral aneurysms can be identified in autopsies / necropsies.


As a nurse, I know that-I thought she was saying there was something outwardly visible. Most COD's can be identified on a post mortem. Thanks.


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## demonwolfmoon

horselessmom said:


> Cerebral aneurysms can be identified in autopsies / necropsies.


Oh heck yeah, they sure can!!! I think my professor enjoyed showing us pictures of those, and every other fun modes of death!!!!

Either way, as has been said the *OWNER DECLINED A NECROPSY.*


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## stevenson

this needs to be the last of this. this needs closed. This could end up a court case and slander . It is the Owners responsibility when a horse dies to order a necropsy , unless the owner in advance has given written instructions to a Vet clinic in the area authorizing Vet care etc , and accepting all related fees.


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## LoveMyDrummerBoy

This thread has been going in circles since it was started. 

I agree with the above


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## Tayz

Agree with the above. But imo life happens. Live life, you never know when things might go wrong. We dont get to decide when we die, so just enjoy your life to the fullest everyday. The only thing certain in life is death.


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## toto

Horses dieee?! Sounds a little rough.. See why i dont trust them high paid yuppie trainers? They killin horses-- knowingly!:shock:


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## Arab Mama

Taffy Clayton said:


> I called my friend who took her horse to Josh Lyons, down in TN, I asked her if Lyons had a similar policy as CA, as to no availability to her horse. She said no, on the contrary, she was encouraged to come down and take some lessons while her horse was there. And as for picking up or dropping the horse off at the ranch, there were no restrictions what so ever.
> 
> I can see restrictions to the general public, of course, but restricted access of an owner, never heard of it before. At the very most there could be a call before you arrive policy, and you won't get a private guided tour, but you can see your horse.


I would think the issue here is that the horses in this program are dangerous and the heavy handed training they need is not going to be a pretty sight. We create the problem and then expect someone else to fix it without having to do something ugly. I can understand why a trainer would not want people to see this type of training for fear that ALL of their training methods would come under scrutiny. Crap - look at what's being said about the guy just for being on TV. He's on TV so that must mean he can't train worth a darn :-|


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## michaelvanessa

*horse die in training*

what the heck do thay do there.
training a horse and makeing it suffer like that for 1 id never send a horse to any one or a barn or a training program like that.
i iron out my own horses my horse use to buck and he was 4 and boy did he he got a few stings on a schooling wip and i sent him foward and he bucked the other day he was happy to be out on the trail.
his tail was from my barn owner she was laughing so muck going round in a circle.
i would ask what the hell of a program did thay put that horse through.
and why.
whats the reason to drive a horse so hard into the dirt as to kill it.
to me there is no sence or purpous for a training like that if thay say your beloved horse is dead because of it.
your horse mite die in this program what type of advatisement is that.
well from a horse owner i am quite shocked and i feel for your horse and im sad for your horse.
i would want my horse back not burred on a ranch that killed him i could not live with that.


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## franknbeans

Toto and Michael-read the thread and get a clue. There is NO evidence that the training or trainer had anything to do with the death of this horse. The CAUSE IS UNKNOWN. Horses can die anywhere, just like people, who die in their beds even! Geesh.


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## Elana

I got to page 21 and the talk became repetitious. This says it all (from the OP) 



> I need professionals to ride through his huge powerful bucking and get him over the trauma of having people being injured by it. He doesn't trust anyone on his back anymore because they all keep falling off. (That includes me!)


If a horse bucks you off, he/she has just been taught, "If I buck, the rider goes sailing." Some horses learn this the first time they do it. It is NOT traumatic to the horse.. horses will buck for fun (even out in the pasture with no one on them.. just playing) and horses will buck because of discomfort and horses will buck as an evasion. 

I see CA took down his post though I liked it. One of the issues with this world is everyone would like to be presented with a polite statement of fact. 

Quite honestly, I think a little anger and a little telling where the bear crapped in the buckwheat is appropriate sometimes. It was appropriate in this case. 

Carry on.


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## michaelvanessa

*horse death blog.*

i got logged out.
ok i have read all the strings that other people have ritten ok i jumped the gun on this one.
ok may be i should read before i judge ok i had a quick snippet thats why i wrote that string.
the truth could have been solved via an autopsey on the horse.
ok i have not read the blog or brosure on the trainer or his establishment.
the owner of the horse was wroung to cut its hay and feed dew to it going into training that was stupid as a horse needs more in training.
ok the trainer could have presented him self in a more profesinal mannor.
the trainer went out of his way to reimburse the owner.
people who need to send there horses to trainers make there own problems and dump them on others and hope other people iron and rangle them out.
as to horses and humans well we all die all the biomachanics are all the same like every thing ealse that walks crawls and breathes air its a life span or nature that creates imperfections within the make up of the body which are ticking time bombs ready to go off.
i think the trainer should monitor the horses in his charge and keep a regular eye on them eather on cctv or rueteen checks by his staff.
also look in to the training methods applyed to the horses under his care
i think thats best pratice for his buissness to keep tabs on things so he is ready for a situation like this one as to find out why.
the horse in person is a loss and both partys hopefully have come to an amicable agreement on the situation.
if the owner did not want an autoposey its her loss to get to the bottom of it and she should drop it.
also face book i would not give it the time of day.
i have seen things happen on livery barns that are an eye opener and the blame festers out and the horses in person suffer or one did die that was a foal. 
when you see things happen it a real eye opener.
and as to this one it will remain a mistory and that is that.
going back to horses 25000 for a horse that a bit much but it was a nice offer from him and a training program for an other.
or was it 2500 i cant rember.
but on a lighter note for that price does the horse cooks keep house and go shoping to the mall for you as well.
like i said i should read befor i wright and check out other peopls strings and reserch.
many thanks for reading.
mine £2500


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## gypsygirl

^^just want to let you know that its impossible to read your post when you type it like that !


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## franknbeans

gypsygirl said:


> ^^just want to let you know that its impossible to read your post when you type it like that !


It is like interpreting a foreign language, but at least she did start new lines to break it up.


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## gypsygirl

but they do not have spaces between them. i literally could not read it !


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## EliRose

OKAY like someone said earlier this thread seems like it could lead to a defamation suit from either CA or the owner. Anymore input will probably just be more name calling and finger pointing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## churumbeque

rocelynwalker said:


> this horse may have had a previous condition that the owner knew of, and just used CA to cause a scandal, and make trouble


Your joking right?


----------



## churumbeque

franknbeans said:


> Toto and Michael-read the thread and get a clue. There is NO evidence that the training or trainer had anything to do with the death of this horse. The CAUSE IS UNKNOWN. Horses can die anywhere, just like people, who die in their beds even! Geesh.


Why do you have to be so rude? It's death although not directly caused it can be indirectly related to what they were doing to it at that time. 
It is stressful physically and mentally to take an unconditioned horse out of it's element and get in in shape in 6 weeks, tie it's head down and leave it unattended. And obviously some die from it.


----------



## churumbeque

Elana said:


> I got to page 21 and the talk became repetitious. This says it all (from the OP)
> 
> 
> 
> If a horse bucks you off, he/she has just been taught, "If I buck, the rider goes sailing." Some horses learn this the first time they do it. It is NOT traumatic to the horse.. horses will buck for fun (even out in the pasture with no one on them.. just playing) and horses will buck because of discomfort and horses will buck as an evasion.
> 
> I see CA took down his post though I liked it. One of the issues with this world is everyone would like to be presented with a polite statement of fact.
> 
> Quite honestly, I think a little anger and a little telling where the bear crapped in the buckwheat is appropriate sometimes. It was appropriate in this case.
> 
> Carry on.


 If he feels that way then he should keep it up. My guess is though it may effect his reputation and pocket book but it may get him more business from people that like that approach.


----------



## franknbeans

churumbeque said:


> Why do you have to be so rude? It's death although not directly caused it can be indirectly related to what they were doing to it at that time.
> It is stressful physically and mentally to take an unconditioned horse out of it's element and get in in shape in 6 weeks, tie it's head down and leave it unattended. And obviously some die from it.


Here is the issue I have. There is NO proof that the horse would not have died even if he had stayed home in his stall fat and happy. That is a fact. Again, the COD is totally unknown. Blame cannot be placed since we simply DO NOT KNOW, which is apparently not acceptable to some folks. It will NEVER be known. Period.

Sorry you find me rude. I get a bit impatient when folks don't take the time to read (or understand) the facts and go off making assumptions and pointing fingers.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Churumbeque, why the insistent head-hunt for CA? The horse died, he tried to make things good with the owner, the owner refused, and that's the end of it. Heck, the owner isn't even out for CA's blood like you are and it was her freaking horse! Give it a rest. As I said before, we're beating a dead horse here (again, no pun intended) and it's just getting ridiculously old. Nothing new is being added to the thread, it's being argued in circles, and, at this point, everything that can be said, has been.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## texasgal

churumbeque said:


> It's death although not directly caused it can be indirectly related to what they were doing to it at that time.
> .


We don't have any idea what they were doing to the horse at the time. We've heard speculation and rumour but WE.DON'T.HAVE.ANY.IDEA.


----------



## NdAppy

This thread reminds me of the energizer bunny... just keeps going and going and going... and never brings up any different points, just the same things over and over.


----------



## churumbeque

franknbeans said:


> Here is the issue I have. There is NO proof that the horse would not have died even if he had stayed home in his stall fat and happy. That is a fact. Again, the COD is totally unknown. Blame cannot be placed since we simply DO NOT KNOW, which is apparently not acceptable to some folks. It will NEVER be known. Period.
> 
> Sorry you find me rude. I get a bit impatient when folks don't take the time to read (or understand) the facts and go off making ASSumptions and pointing fingers.


You are correct that we do not know what happened but it is a hot topic of conversation and it is common to read part and post not realizing that there are so many pages to follow. 

I have been personally guilty of doing the same thing and when I read on I see that maybe that was covered. I have also skimmed over something and misunderstood or missed something when people type with out any line breakes.

When I see something I want to talk about I click on it then as I won't go back and look for it. I just think there could be plenty of opinions with out personal attacks and degrading people.

The way my phone auto corrects I am sure I sometimes sound like an idiot.


----------



## churumbeque

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Churumbeque, why the insistent head-hunt for CA? The horse died, he tried to make things good with the owner, the owner refused, and that's the end of it. Heck, the owner isn't even out for CA's blood like you are and it was her freaking horse! Give it a rest. As I said before, we're beating a dead horse here (again, no pun intended) and it's just getting ridiculously old. Nothing new is being added to the thread, it's being argued in circles, and, at this point, everything that can be said, has been.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 You are way out of touch. Just because I didn't like CA statement does not make it a head hunt. I though do not agree with leaving a horse unattended with it's head tied down as was stated somewhere in this thread.

Many people may also not know that Friesians do not do well in the heat, their hearts are not that strong and they lack stamina which in this type of training could cause way more stress to a horse like that then the average horse and attribute to its death.

Why are you not giving it a rest? You expect others that are passionate about the subject, but just do not share your point of view, not post about this but it is ok for you to?

So because I have an opinion that CA statement was un professional that is not a head hunt?


----------



## churumbeque

texasgal said:


> We don't have any idea what they were doing to the horse at the time. We've heard speculation and rumour but WE.DON'T.HAVE.ANY.IDEA.


 None of us were there and it sounds like no one at the ranch was there either so we are just posting about what we have read.


----------



## Dustbunny

I suggest we with a wit simply quit adding to this.

If some continue to blather about that which they do not know, well, blather on.


----------



## TheAQHAGirl

I don't/can't buy it. 

I don't think I've ever heard of something like this happening and I would like to see more proof if there is any.


----------



## kassierae

churumbeque said:


> You are way out of touch. Just because I didn't like CA statement does not make it a head hunt. I though do not agree with leaving a horse unattended with it's head tied down as was stated somewhere in this thread.
> 
> *Many people may also not know that Friesians do not do well in the heat, their hearts are not that strong and they lack stamina which in this type of training could cause way more stress to a horse like that then the average horse and attribute to its death.*
> 
> Why are you not giving it a rest? You expect others that are passionate about the subject, but just do not share your point of view, not post about this but it is ok for you to?
> 
> So because I have an opinion that CA statement was un professional that is not a head hunt?


In response to the bolded part, I know MANY people who own, breed and show friesians and I have NEVER heard this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## churumbeque

kassierae said:


> In response to the bolded part, I know MANY people who own, breed and show friesians and I have NEVER heard this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 you won't see them in a sport that takes a lot of stamina like endurance, cross country comp. And such. . They also prefer cold weather to hot. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## churumbeque

kassierae said:


> In response to the bolded part, I know MANY people who own, breed and show friesians and I have NEVER heard this.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


if you do a search on Friesians and stamina there are plenty of articles on it on the internet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## horsecrazygirl

I think this thread is better of closed...


----------



## toto

franknbeans said:


> Toto and Michael-read the thread and get a clue. There is NO evidence that the training or trainer had anything to do with the death of this horse. The CAUSE IS UNKNOWN. Horses can die anywhere, just like people, who die in their beds even! Geesh.


I read-- if i read correct-- the OP said CA told the horse owner 'horses die during this training' and they still agreed.:shock: sounds like hes killed horses in the training before?


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## franknbeans

toto said:


> I read-- if i read correct-- the OP said CA told the horse owner 'horses die during this training' and they still agreed.:shock: sounds like hes killed horses in the training before?


We have no idea when CA said this. For all we know it may have been said after the horse died, as was already stated by someone long ago in this thread....as in "Horses die....." (which they do, just like people, etc) Horses dying is NOT the same as horses being KILLED. One does NOT equal the other. As long as things are alive on this earth, there will be things that die. We may mot always know the cause, and sometimes it may have nothing to do with anything. We just have to accept that sometimes, and we cannot accuse people of "killing" something unless we have some evidence of that. 

I would also suggest to you that perhaps you may want to do some of your own research (which is pretty easy to do) in cases like this to avoid wrongfully accusing people based on what someone else has posted. Read and come to your own conclusions, rather than just jumping on someone elses wagon.


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

I'm not a groupie of any trainer - although I'd take CA over PP or Monty Roberts any day of the week, as a lot of the stuff I do happens to be his approach. But I'd like to provide a cultural perspective to his response.

Firstly, this response came after a LOT of abuse online (and probably phone calls too) where he's been consistently harassed, and his staff probably have been too. The stuff I've seen out there is not nice at all, and very ignorant for the most part (think PETA met a bunch of angry Justin Bieber fans). It'd make me pretty mad too.

CA is an Aussie. He's really a typical Aussie horseman who's managed to make it big. And his response reads like what I'd have expected from the horsemen I've known (some great, some terrible - that's not the point). No, it wasn't a professional scripted PR message, and that is probably a mistake on his part because he IS a public figure, but it was genuine. And it really wasn't that bad, if you read it as an Aussie - but I can see how it would be inappropriate to people in the US. And yes, that's his mistake, because he does deal with a global audience thanks to his success. But it wasn't rude and obnoxious as some people want to make out - it was frustrated, and not well thought out, but it was also not a copy-paste PR message, where you're left deciphering the bulls***. To be honest, if he weren't an international figure and the owner had been an Aussie, this response would be appreciated for its directness and lack of corporate cr*p.

On another matter, most of the people making comment around the web are of the unicorn fart and butterfly ilk, and see the horse as a poor big cuddly thing that was abused to death. This was a horse that was consistently throwing people and injuring them - probably thanks to the owner seeing him as a fairy horse (as seen from her interpretation of his behaviour). I feel sorry for this horse, but not because it ran into CA. I feel sorry for it because it was pretty obviously not given any discipline by the owner, became a dangerous animal and died as a result. And had it just continued on its path of bad behaviour, there's a chance it would have ended up euthed as a dangerous animal. She created a problem, she wanted it fixed. She could have opted to retire the horse, but she didn't. In my book, her fault.


----------



## franknbeans

Agree almost totally EHOD, EXCEPT almost the last line, where you state the horse became dangerous _and died as a result of it._ Again, we do not know that the training had anything to do with the horses death, or what caused it at all. Horse may have died regardless of whether he was at his owners in his stall or at CA's.


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

franknbeans said:


> Agree almost totally EHOD, EXCEPT almost the last line, where you state the horse became dangerous _and died as a result of it._ Again, we do not know that the training had anything to do with the horses death, or what caused it at all. Horse may have died regardless of whether he was at his owners in his stall or at CA's.


True enough - I guess my feeling is though that if that's the horse on her website home page, he is FAT. Pretty and shiny, but fat. Probably because he's being mollycoddled and is unrideable. So you have a fat horse that, due to its behavioural issues (or the inability of its owner to deal with them), has been put on a crash diet and is then put into "boot camp". They advise against this sort of thing with people for good reason! (And as has been noted numerous times, CA advises against reductions in feed before horses start the program.)


----------



## texasgal

Thanks for the perspective EHOD. 

I do feel bad for the horse. If the issue was all behavior-based and not medical, then we can definitely say that it was an owner-caused problem that the horse was spoiled and dangerous.

I have a feeling this story wouldn't have ended well either way. If she hadn't sent the horse to CA we would likely be reading an article entitled:

_Rider dies after been thrown from horse - Owner sued._


----------



## EvilHorseOfDoom

texasgal said:


> Thanks for the perspective EHOD.
> 
> I do feel bad for the horse. If the issue was all behavior-based and not medical, then we can definitely say that it was an owner-caused problem that the horse was spoiled and dangerous.
> 
> I have a feeling this story wouldn't have ended well either way. If she hadn't sent the horse to CA we would likely be reading an article entitled:
> 
> _Rider dies after been thrown from horse - Owner sued._


Or maybe even, _Dangerous horse that escaped rider and bolted dealt with by Animal Control_, or something similar. It's terribly unfortunate that the horse is often the one that pays the ultimate price for the poor skills of their owner. And, say what you like about him, I think Clint's educational material has done a lot to teach many new horse owners how to deal with the more assertive horse and prevent or fix problems such as those this lady faced. Which I am sure has saved horses' lives, and perhaps even a few riders'... As I said earlier, I'm not a follower but I do appreciate that he provides a less touchy-feely approach than the usual NH crew.


----------



## wyominggrandma

I was thinking the exact thing texasgal. In all the "poor horsie, mean awful CA" nobody mentioned that in fact it was a horse that died, not a person. 
I wonder how this thread would have gone if the title was "my dangerous, spoiled horse killed CA or one of his trainers at his ranch during a "boot camp" training courses." Please feel sorry for me, they must have made my horse mad and he lashed out, or some such garbage. Or "now CA or the family of the person my horse killed is sueing me, isn't that awful?"
Would all the CA haters still been trashing him or would it have turned on the owner of the spoiled, dangerous horse? 
Sometimes things need to be put into perspective, this horse likely was going to kill or severely injure someone if he had stayed in the owners "fairyland" world. She sent him for training, knowing LOTS more about the program and details than she has posted after the fact, I imagine.


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## LouieThePalomino

WOAH!! I never knew Clinton Anderson was that cruel! I would never let him near my horse! Someone should do an undercover investigation of his ranch.


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## cowgirl4753

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## texasgal

louiethepalomino said:


> woah!! I never knew clinton anderson was that cruel! I would never let him near my horse! Someone should do an undercover investigation of his ranch.


 
** ... O .......... M ........... G .............


----------



## Maple

texasgal said:


> ** ... O .......... M ........... G .............


Yeah... i kinda did a :shock: and then I went to :rofl: because I didn't know what else to do.


----------



## texasgal

People will believe ANYTHING .. it's on the internet, ya know!


----------



## franknbeans

Maple said:


> Yeah... i kinda did a :shock: and then I went to :rofl: because I didn't know what else to do.


I just figured that it was a belated April Fools.:wink:


----------



## LouieThePalomino

texasgal said:


> ** ... O .......... M ........... G .............


I'm late aren't I? Rofl I should've read all of the posts before replying but I was busy.


----------



## franknbeans

LouieThePalomino said:


> I'm late aren't I? Rofl I should've read all of the posts before replying but I was busy.



if you were to busy to read, perhaps you should have been too busy to post.....:wink:


----------



## Saddlebag

I wonder where the idea that the horse was tied out to graze started, by confession of CA staff, the owner, or the owner's friend. I can't see why there would need or desire to tie a horse out to graze at CA. This doesn't make sense. Something's fishy here.


----------



## Cat

Saddlebag said:


> I wonder where the idea that the horse was tied out to graze started, by confession of CA staff, the owner, or the owner's friend. I can't see why there would need or desire to tie a horse out to graze at CA. This doesn't make sense. Something's fishy here.


 
I believe the owner claimed CA told her he was tied low on her FB page.


----------



## faye

Allison Finch said:


> Hmmm...we only have his word that there was no struggle. It is awfully rare that a horse, while at rest, suddenly just drops dead. I doubt CA is giving the owner the straight facts but, we will never know.


Nope not rare at all, it happens, horses have heart attacks, anurisms and ruptured diaphragms, heck a pony can break its neck in a field.

I've had it happen to me. Pony fine in his field at 11am, dead by 3pm checks. No signs of struggle or thrashing (and on a wet day in a muddy field so you would have seen it). Pony had won at a major county show 3 days previously. 
He had ruptured his diaphragm possibly when he lay down to roll, vet reckons it was a weakness that he probably had all his life and it just chose that moment to give. Why it gave then is a mystery.

I will add Friesians are well known for being very inbred and having LOTS of associated health conditions. Aortic anurisms happens to be one of them.

Heck Reeco nearly died during his training. He came exactly 2 inches from death (I Know because I measured it). When retraining dangerous horses sometimes things go wrong. With Reeco that was the first time we did his girth up, he bolted blind, head first into a wall, knocked a brick out of the wall and fractured his skull. There were no warning signs, no tensing up he just went.
2 inches from where his head met the wall there was a bolt sticking out at least 4" which would have pierced his skull and killed him instantly had he hit that and not the wall.

I dont know CA, I havnt knowingly used any of his techniques but as a realistic owner of a problem horse that went through retraining (and for the record I spent the equivalent of $6000 on retraining him) I would not judge him without having been there and seen what happened. 

I am realistic enough to know that retraining problem horses is not rainbows and butterflys. Heck my lads trainer sat me down and told me that the technique she was about to use on him was an absolute last resort and that if it went badly wrong it could result in a broken neck. It didnt go wrong due to her and her teams skilled use of it and it did solve his problem.

CA's boot camp sounds to me like a last resort for problem or dangerous horses. There is more potential for things to go wrong when horses have gotten to that stage.

My trainer was happy enough for me to watch however she did not want a group turning up on the yard, you would have to fit in round the horses training and no you wouldnt be given a guided tour or individual attention.


----------



## TheAQHAGirl

texasgal said:


> People will believe ANYTHING .. it's on the internet, ya know!







....
Again I feel like this is a huge exaggeration. Clinton didn't kill any horse. The horse was spoiled and turned into a dangerous horse that would have most likely killed someone. Its not like Clinton took a carrot stick (whatever it is he calls it) and beat the horse to death.

I completely agree with EHOD.


----------



## Fargosgirl

In my experience horses are accident prone to the point of being practically suicidal! I have seen them do grievous bodily harm to themselves on the most benign things! And the saying "Healthy as a horse" WHO MADE THAT UP???? Horses will keel over dead at the drop of a hat. 
I can see if a horse owner asked CA "have you ever had a horse die in your program?"
I'm sure he would have had to say yes. Every trainer/barn manager who has had more than a hundred or so horses has probably had a horse die while in their care.
This thing has been blown all out of proportion on all sides, simply because CA has a big name. I'm defending him, and I don't even like his methods all that well:shock:


----------



## Corporal

I have a hard time believing this. I've been watching his programs for some three years now. I think the series on "Tricky Warrior" showed in one episode that the horse needed just a little more training before he reared up circling the trees. I wouldn't have aired that one before retaping, and it shows _at the *worst*_, that the "Method" is a little more important sometimes than _tailoring_ the method. Horses don't lie. You cannot get an animal to follow you calmly if you abuse them. I recently saw Dennis Reis retrain an Arabian who HAD been abused. He didn't make a big deal out of it, but I saw this horse smacking his lips continuously when he felt nervous. I have never seen a horse do that before. Dennis was using appropriate training, and he made great progress, yet that horse HAD to have been beaten up by somebody in his past and was genuinely frightened of human training.
Today it's really easy to slander another American. If this poster had the guts, I would suggest advertising this story. At least, they and CA could get their attorneys involved in a property settlement.
Horses can die under stress. "Corporal" (1982-2009, RIP) suffered a stroke his last day on earth, had fallen into my shelter's manger, and couldn't get out, even with our help. At 27yo, his heart just gave out. If I had been boarding him, I couldn't have blamed a BO for this event. I'm betting that the owner had signed a release and cannot take legal action.
Even with the bad comments against the Parelli's, I still would trust them training my horses. I say, get over it.


----------



## GotaDunQH

faye said:


> Nope not rare at all, it happens, horses have heart attacks, anurisms and ruptured diaphragms, heck a pony can break its neck in a field.
> 
> I've had it happen to me. Pony fine in his field at 11am, dead by 3pm checks. No signs of struggle or thrashing (and on a wet day in a muddy field so you would have seen it). Pony had won at a major county show 3 days previously.
> He had ruptured his diaphragm possibly when he lay down to roll, vet reckons it was a weakness that he probably had all his life and it just chose that moment to give. Why it gave then is a mystery.
> 
> I will add Friesians are well known for being very inbred and having LOTS of associated health conditions. Aortic anurisms happens to be one of them.
> 
> Heck Reeco nearly died during his training. He came exactly 2 inches from death (I Know because I measured it). When retraining dangerous horses sometimes things go wrong. With Reeco that was the first time we did his girth up, he bolted blind, head first into a wall, knocked a brick out of the wall and fractured his skull. There were no warning signs, no tensing up he just went.
> 2 inches from where his head met the wall there was a bolt sticking out at least 4" which would have pierced his skull and killed him instantly had he hit that and not the wall.
> 
> I dont know CA, I havnt knowingly used any of his techniques but as a realistic owner of a problem horse that went through retraining (and for the record I spent the equivalent of $6000 on retraining him) I would not judge him without having been there and seen what happened.
> 
> I am realistic enough to know that retraining problem horses is not rainbows and butterflys. Heck my lads trainer sat me down and told me that the technique she was about to use on him was an absolute last resort and that if it went badly wrong it could result in a broken neck. It didnt go wrong due to her and her teams skilled use of it and it did solve his problem.
> 
> *CA's boot camp sounds to me like a last resort for problem or dangerous horses. There is more potential for things to go wrong when horses have gotten to that stage.*
> 
> My trainer was happy enough for me to watch however she did not want a group turning up on the yard, you would have to fit in round the horses training and no you wouldnt be given a guided tour or individual attention.


 
I said earlier I was done...but had to come back for a couple things.

The bolded....so essentially...CA in boot camp (6 weeks long) it's putting out "45 day wonders." It takes a HECK of a longer time than that to get one trained. ESPECIALLY if you have a rank horse, which is what this horse sounded like. You HAVE to start at the beginning, and ANY good trainer knows....that it takes close to a year to get one finished or close to it. How long was your horse in training where you spent $6,000? Was it longer than 6 weeks? Just curious is all....


----------



## toto

franknbeans said:


> We have no idea when CA said this. For all we know it may have been said after the horse died, as was already stated by someone long ago in this thread....as in "Horses die....." (which they do, just like people, etc) Horses dying is NOT the same as horses being KILLED. One does NOT equal the other. As long as things are alive on this earth, there will be things that die. We may mot always know the cause, and sometimes it may have nothing to do with anything. We just have to accept that sometimes, and we cannot accuse people of "killing" something unless we have some evidence of that.
> 
> I would also suggest to you that perhaps you may want to do some of your own research (which is pretty easy to do) in cases like this to avoid wrongfully accusing people based on what someone else has posted. Read and come to your own conclusions, rather than just jumping on someone elses wagon.





OP made it sound like CA said this to the owner as a warning ?? Questioning her choice to do the 'bootcamp'? Why bring up 'death' if horses werent 'being killed' in the 'bootcamp'?

I sure hate to assume things but when someone says 'horses die in my bootcamp' before i bring them to their program-- im gonna think twice about it fer sure.. because it sounds harsh. If he said 'fun fact-- horses die of old age' i wouldnt even question it. 


What did you find when you researched it? Was it an april fools day prank?.. people are so sneaky now dayz.:?


----------



## EmilyJoy

Boot camp I wouldn't think is to actually train horses... More like getting them respectful and maybe teaching them a few basics. They are there to get respect & get rid of problems that otherwise maybe would have been giving up on.

Just my 2cents.


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## GotaDunQH

^lol....my trainer has never said to me..."hey your horse might die here." It's a given that horses die, but when you send your horse out for training....and that is said...I would be like, "no thanks...I've changed my mind." It just says red flags to me.


----------



## GotaDunQH

EmilyJoy said:


> Boot camp I wouldn't think is to actually train horses... More like getting them respectful and maybe teaching them a few basics. They are there to get respect & get rid of problems that otherwise maybe would have been giving up on.
> 
> Just my 2cents.


But that IS training!!! If this horse was rank and bucked everyone off...OBVIOUSLY the horse was not started correctly. SO....when THAT happens you start all over again FROM the beginning....a clean slate.


----------



## EmilyJoy

Yeah maybe so, but as stated earlier I doubt he actually said that to his customers out right, I'm thinking it was written on his legal papers as to protect him if something like this (unpredictable) happens.

Totally agree that it is training. I could have whacked myself for saying that. More like getting rid of past issues, respect and starting out fresh again. Sort of like brain washing?

Edit; what I meant by "not training" was not teaching him to flex under saddle, not teaching him to neck rein.. etc... YES he is training, everybody is training always. He is training for respect, not training to do things...


----------



## toto

How do you know he didnt say that to the owner of that horse? Seems like an honest man to me in the vids ive seen him in. Most horse people (the honest ones) are straight forward-- they wont leave something out because it sounds good-- if they bring in tons of business they probably wont mind having a few people walk away anyway. 

If it was in the contract the owner would have stated that? Most people dont understand how to get respect from a horse-- they think dominating is how you earn respect.. that might work in jail or with dogs but not horses. If you want respect you need to be the leader-- ive never seen a leader work a horse to death-- a leader would see the horse is getting tired and stop for the day not keep pushing. If the horse isnt learning the way the trainer keeps pushing-- time to try another way! 

Deth shouldnt even be an option in a 'professional' facility. They should have great vets farriers nutritionists chyropractors etcetra that are easily reachable. There aint no excuses!!


----------



## oh vair oh

It was the owner's fault for letting her horse get this dangerous to begin with.

A dangerous horse is only worth the price the meat buyers will pay - friesian or not.

At least he died trying to be saved. Though "last ditch efforts" hardly work out.


----------



## GotaDunQH

oh vair oh said:


> It was the owner's fault for letting her horse get this dangerous to begin with.
> 
> A dangerous horse is only worth the price the meat buyers will pay - friesian or not.
> 
> At least he died trying to be saved. Though "last ditch efforts" hardly work out.


Using your logic...BOTH are to blame. The owner for getting this horse so fat and full of fuel without the knowledge and training on the other end to burn off the fuel and put some training into the horse. AND to CA for taking on this horse that was so dangerous, out of shape, and basically unbroke to begin with...trying to cram it all in...in the span of 6 short weeks. Both of them should be ashamed.


----------



## oh vair oh

GotaDunQH said:


> Using your logic...BOTH are to blame. The owner for getting this horse so fat and full of fuel without the knowledge and training on the other end to burn off the fuel and put some training into the horse. AND to CA for taking on this horse that was so dangerous, out of shape, and basically unbroke to begin with...trying to cram it all in...in the span of 6 short weeks. Both of them should be ashamed.


You're right, it's a lose-lose situation. It should serve as a warning to others to be responsible for your horses. Personally I would never leave my horse in the care of a trainer full-time (without myself being able to learn with the horse). Even if CA did succeed, 100% sure the horse would be back to normal within a month. The horse may gain knowledge, but it was the rider's lack of knowledge that caused it, and will cause it again.


----------



## apachiedragon

Saddlebag said:


> I wonder where the idea that the horse was tied out to graze started, by confession of CA staff, the owner, or the owner's friend. I can't see why there would need or desire to tie a horse out to graze at CA. This doesn't make sense. Something's fishy here.


That is a very good point. I was told months ago by someone who went to his ranch for a training program that it was set up as a "paddock paradise"> Each horse or two having their own small space. She was raving about it because she wanted to set up her dream farm the exact same way. So it would not be necessary to tie a horse out to graze and leave it, when there are dozens of paddocks at their disposal. Unless they left him tied to "fight it out". In which case, that turned into a fatal error on their part.


----------



## churumbeque

I must have missed something I never read anywhere that the horse was dangerous. it was bolting and scared, not rearing, striking, kicking or attacking people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheAQHAGirl

churumbeque said:


> I must have missed something I never read anywhere that the horse was dangerous. it was bolting and scared, not rearing, striking, kicking or attacking people.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A spooking and bolting horse, I also believed that the owner said it bucked too, is a dangerous horse.

If anything if the horse got like that with the owner, if anything it would get worse.


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## oh vair oh

"His major issue is bolting and bucking. I need professionals to ride through his huge powerful bucking and get him over the trauma of having people being injured by it. He doesn't trust anyone on his back anymore because they all keep falling off."

Any horse that has the idea that it _can _get people off if it tries hard enough is a very dangerous animal.


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## Clayton Taffy

oh vair oh said:


> Any horse that has the idea that it _can _get people off if it tries hard enough is a very dangerous animal.


I always called this a horse that bucks.


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## Clayton Taffy

For you all that are crying foul, for any person assuming CA did anything wrong,
let's call the Kettle black here. I have read all kinds of trash talk here against the horse owner. Insinuations that the horse was dangerous, that she spoiled it fat and rotten. That she was entirely to blame for the dead horse. You assume that you know everything about the owner because of a flowery eulagy she wrote for her horse on FB. 
Go to horse memorials on HF and lets trash talk them too.
Because the owner has a different phylosophy of horse ownership, she deserves this. If only people that believed what you do should own a horse, there would be very few owners indeed. 
I am ashamed of this thread, the way you all are attacking the owner of this horse. This thread never was slanderous against CA, but you all sure have crucified the owner.


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## demonwolfmoon

You guys ever try to deliberately UNSELL someone something?

My BO had this happen the other day....lady comes out looking for an English barn or something, and not just an English barn, but like a SERIOUS HARDCORE BARN, kept saying things that made my barn owner think that she'd be really High Maintenance and a complete PITA....my BO actively tried to NOT sell her there at that point. Politely, of course.

Honestly, I know that's the way they make money...but you guys ever consider the possibility that the owner could have been enough of a PITA that the CA people tried to drive her away? "You know...your horse CAN die during training "*crosses fingers* *please, please don't say you want to come!!!!!!"*

Just to throw a wrench in this. Also, I know I can't be the only potential employer that has tried to scare employees away, just in case they were there for a lazy position.


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## Clayton Taffy

OH PLEASE^^^^
That is about as bad as the poster that said the owner knew something was the matter with her horse and sent it to CA, in the hopes that something would happen!


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## oh vair oh

Taffy Clayton said:


> For you all that are crying foul, for any person assuming CA did anything wrong,
> let's call the Kettle black here. I have read all kinds of trash talk here against the horse owner. Insinuations that the horse was dangerous, that she spoiled it fat and rotten. That she was entirely to blame for the dead horse. You assume that you know everything about the owner because of a flowery eulagy she wrote for her horse on FB.
> Go to horse memorials on HF and lets trash talk them too.
> Because the owner has a different phylosophy of horse ownership, she deserves this. If only people that believed what you do should own a horse, there would be very few owners indeed.
> I am ashamed of this thread, the way you all are attacking the owner of this horse. This thread never was slanderous against CA, but you all sure have crucified the owner.


I'm just putting myself in the owner's shoes.

If somehow I turned Lily into a horse that tried to buck people off, if she was so far gone that I was so desperate for help that I had to send her away for extreme training, and then for whatever reason she died, how can I honestly say it was anyone's fault but my own? That I didn't do my job from day 1, or that I bit off more than I could chew?

What philosophy is that _you _are responsible for overseeing your horse's training, _you _are responsible for where you send your horse, _you _are responsible. If you _knew_ your horse was going to a program where she stated horses supposedly die, then it was _your _decision to send them there. I'm not saying CA isn't also responsible as a professional, but you don't have to send your horse to CA if you were well aware of the dangers. 

Which is why my "philosophy" is not to send my horse anywhere that I can't go see him every single day to ensure he is being cared for properly. Didn't happen with this horse, didn't happen with Cleve Wells, didn't happen with Shirley Roth. And if that causes less people to own horses, then maybe it's for the better...


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## franknbeans

THis thread reminds me of the old game where you start a story and send it around the circle whereby it morphs into something with little semblance of the story that was started. It is getting redundant. Horses die. In training, in their stalls, in their fields, in the wild it is a fact, and sometimes there is NOONE to blame.


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## Muppetgirl

I don't mind arguing with myself. It's when I lose that it bothers me.

Richard Powers


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## demonwolfmoon

Taffy Clayton said:


> OH PLEASE^^^^
> That is about as bad as the poster that said the owner knew something was the matter with her horse and sent it to CA, in the hopes that something would happen!


Why not? It makes as much sense as some of the other stupid thrown about this thread. =)


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## Muppetgirl

franknbeans said:


> THis thread reminds me of the old game where you start a story and send it around the circle whereby it morphs into something with little semblance of the story that was started. It is getting redundant. Horses die. In training, in their stalls, in their fields, in the wild it is a fact, and sometimes there is NOONE to blame.


OMG! OMG! OMG! Poneighs die???? :shock::shock::shock:


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## COWCHICK77

Muppetgirl said:


> OMG! OMG! OMG! Poneighs die???? :shock::shock::shock:


Settle down, Its okay, they don't die they just turn into Pegasus' and fly away...


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## franknbeans

With fairies on their backs dressed in flowing pink and purple.


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## Clayton Taffy

Or they die under Clinton Anderson's watch!
With no fanfair, just a "**** happens"!
Go figure.


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## demonwolfmoon

Taffy Clayton said:


> Or they die under Clinton Anderson's watch!
> With no fanfair, just a "**** happens"!
> Go figure.


So, what you're implying is, if it *wasn't* CA, there'd be no big fanfare fuss?

Go figure! xD


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## Muppetgirl




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## DimSum




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## demonwolfmoon

Muppetgirl said:


> View attachment 147633


reminds me of my very loud (ex!) FB friend


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## NdAppy

Just quoting myself as it is so true....



NdAppy said:


> This thread reminds me of the energizer bunny... just keeps going and going and going... and never brings up any different points, just the same things over and over.


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## demonwolfmoon

Muppet, it's too bad that I booted her...I should have put this up on FB and tagged her. =D


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## toto

demonwolfmoon said:


> You guys ever try to deliberately UNSELL someone something?
> 
> My BO had this happen the other day....lady comes out looking for an English barn or something, and not just an English barn, but like a SERIOUS HARDCORE BARN, kept saying things that made my barn owner think that she'd be really High Maintenance and a complete PITA....my BO actively tried to NOT sell her there at that point. Politely, of course.
> 
> *Honestly, I know that's the way they make money...but you guys ever consider the possibility that the owner could have been enough of a PITA that the CA people tried to drive her away? "You know...your horse CAN die during training "*crosses fingers* *please, please don't say you want to come!!!!!!"*
> 
> Just to throw a wrench in this. Also, I know I can't be the only potential employer that has tried to scare employees away, just in case they were there for a lazy position.*



Tried to scare the horse owner away by telling them their horse might die then actually kill it? Thats not scaring-- thats premeditated horse abuse?


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## Clayton Taffy

Read into it what you want. 
Either way you will turn it around to suit yourselves any how.


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## Muppetgirl

demonwolfmoon said:


> Muppet, it's too bad that I booted her...I should have put this up on FB and tagged her. =D


Hindsight is 20/20......


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## TheAQHAGirl

Okay this thread is starting to make my night.


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## DraftyAiresMum

toto said:


> Tried to scare the horse owner away by telling them their horse might die then actually kill it? Thats not scaring-- thats premeditated horse abuse?


Once again...

NO ONE actually involved in this incident said that the horse was killed. The OP is the one who brought the word "killed" into the mix. The owner even stated that the horse died. She never said the horse was killed by CA or anyone at his facility.

We do all realize that absolutely NOTHING new has been brought to this thread since page 21, right? I'm with NDAppy, this thread just won't die.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

toto said:


> Tried to scare the horse owner away by telling them their horse might die then actually kill it? Thats not scaring-- thats premeditated horse abuse?


Um....noooo, that's not premeditated horse abuse. You're missing my whole point.

My BO didn't want to work with a stressful, crazy witch, so she told her the things that would SCARE HER AWAY.

I didn't want to work with lazy employees who were looking for an easy job to sleep at, so I asked them questions and told them things that made me look like a difficult person. 

If the peons at CA's told her that her horse "might die" (that's a big IF...we don't know what was said, nor WHEN IT WAS SAID, nor in what context), they may have been trying to scare away the potential pain in their butts. That's all I was saying.

*Unfortunately, you seem to have missed my point. =(*

And again, sadly, the disclaimer that I literally have no clue who this guy is, except for that a lot of people think he's a big deal?! I didn't even know he was an Aussie, but having some Aussie friends..I guess that explains his statement a bit!!!! LOL


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## wyominggrandma

The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round. The wheels on the bus go round and round, all day long.......................


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## EliRose

demonwolfmoon said:


> You guys ever try to deliberately UNSELL someone something?
> 
> My BO had this happen the other day....lady comes out looking for an English barn or something, and not just an English barn, but like a SERIOUS HARDCORE BARN, kept saying things that made my barn owner think that she'd be really High Maintenance and a complete PITA....my BO actively tried to NOT sell her there at that point. Politely, of course.
> 
> Honestly, I know that's the way they make money...but you guys ever consider the possibility that the owner could have been enough of a PITA that the CA people tried to drive her away? "You know...your horse CAN die during training "*crosses fingers* *please, please don't say you want to come!!!!!!"*
> 
> Just to throw a wrench in this. Also, I know I can't be the only potential employer that has tried to scare employees away, just in case they were there for a lazy position.


. . . Judging by CA's "statement", I don't think he or his employees would have minded kicking the woman to the curb outright. So I don't think they foresaw any issue with her.

. . .

This is the song that doesn't end.
Yes, it goes on and on my friend.
Some people started singing it not knowing what it was,
And they'll continue singing it forever just because . . .


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## Muppetgirl




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## demonwolfmoon

EliRose said:


> . . . Judging by CA's "statement", I don't think he or his employees would have minded kicking the woman to the curb outright. So I don't think they foresaw any issue with her.
> 
> . . .
> 
> This is the song that doesn't end.
> Yes, it goes on and on my friend.
> Some people started singing it not knowing what it was,
> And they'll continue singing it forever just because . . .


Lol, I can't imagine too many bosses that would be happy knowing an employee was trying to unsell the business! 

Either way, I was just trying to throw a different thought into it

And agreed, it's a song that never ends. Seems like there's a lot of people accusing others of being rabid followers, when it seems like CA has a lot more rabid HATERS than lovers...

Oh and people who read selectively.


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## EliRose

Muppetgirl said:


> View attachment 147665


Hey, I thought you said you disliked cats! :shock:

It's a conspiracy! :twisted:


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## Muppetgirl

EliRose said:


> Hey, I thought you said you disliked cats! :shock:
> 
> It's a conspiracy! :twisted:


Ya! And everytime someone posts in the thread a kitten dies....it's a no brainer! Three cats are already in kitty heaven! Bwahahahaha!:twisted:


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## texasgal

.... all those dead kittens ....


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## toto

demonwolfmoon said:


> Um....noooo, that's not premeditated horse abuse. You're missing my whole point.
> 
> My BO didn't want to work with a stressful, crazy witch, so she told her the things that would SCARE HER AWAY.
> 
> I didn't want to work with lazy employees who were looking for an easy job to sleep at, so I asked them questions and told them things that made me look like a difficult person.
> 
> If the peons at CA's told her that her horse "might die" (that's a big IF...we don't know what was said, nor WHEN IT WAS SAID, nor in what context), they may have been trying to scare away the potential pain in their butts. That's all I was saying.
> 
> *Unfortunately, you seem to have missed my point. =(*
> 
> And again, sadly, the disclaimer that I literally have no clue who this guy is, except for that a lot of people think he's a big deal?! I didn't even know he was an Aussie, but having some Aussie friends..I guess that explains his statement a bit!!!! LOL


No i get it. It just sounded very unprofessional for someone like CA-- I would like to immagine he runs a very professional facility and would say something like 'i dont think your horse is right for this program' then explain why he thought so and maybe give an alternitive training session or point the owner in the right direction?


Ha! You coulda just spat on the floor by their feet then said 'we dont hire sissies' :rofl: 



I get what you was sayin-- juss givin my opinion. 


Im gonna go ahead and assume youre joking? Ive heard of him for years before watching any videos on the internet.. reminded me of the movie the horse whisperer.


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## toto

Muppetgirl said:


> Ya! And everytime someone posts in the thread a kitten dies....it's a no brainer! Three cats are already in kitty heaven! Bwahahahaha!:twisted:



Should have went with puppies if you wanted to end the thread.


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## demonwolfmoon

toto said:


> Im gonna go ahead and assume youre joking? Ive heard of him for years before watching any videos on the internet.. reminded me of the movie the horse whisperer.


No, literally, I have heard his name before, now I know he's Australian...and I looked up his site to see JUST EXACTLY WTH he was offering for all that money! 

lol

I don't watch TV. I don't have cable. I read, but a lot of the time if I see a big name trainer attached to the article, I skip it. I'm not training my own horses anyway, and if it's not pertinent to me not giving them bad manners, then I don't care yet. 

I guess I don't understand the rabid hype for/against certain trainers? If it's useful, learn from it, if it's not, everyone is free to ignore it...There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. /shrug.

Either way, it seems like from this thread, his detractors are louder than his "fans"....


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## texasgal

Or foals .....


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## toto

texasgal said:


> Or foals .....


True dat! Good thing i dislike cats!


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## trailhorserider

I just check in to see if there was anything new in this thread.

Nope. :lol:


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## TheAQHAGirl




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## texasgal




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## Muppetgirl

Ooops oooops


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## Ian McDonald

Muppetgirl said:


> View attachment 147633


So accurate..


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## Lockwood

This thread has run it's course.


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