# Friesen losing registration for crossbreeding?



## MacabreMikolaj

I thought that Friesens lost their registration when bred to outside breeds? Do you still get to tell people they're registered? Or is it just that she somehow hasn't been caught yet? Or am I wrong all together???

http://winnipeg.kijiji.ca/c-ViewAd?AdId=464757484
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## DraftyAiresMum

Looks to me like she just hasn't been caught yet or she's lying. Seriously, who advertises their 1st Premium friesian stud in frigging Kijiji?
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## Speed Racer

Depends on the registry. 

The Dutch Registry is VERY strict, and it's not just the stallions who lose their registrations, but purebred mares can as well if they have a partbred foal.

The German Registry _discourages_ cross breeding, but the horses won't lose their breeding rights/registrations if they do.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Because we live in Manitoba and 90% of the people breeding/owning stallions are a friggin' joke. 

Thanks for clarifying!
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## DraftyAiresMum

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Because we live in Manitoba and 90% of the people breeding/owning stallions are a friggin' joke.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That seriously just made me LOL. :lol: Sounds like something my best friend would say (she's Canadian).
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## MacabreMikolaj

It's sad. We do have a few REALLY nice operations and good stallions but we unfortunately have a very small time show scene so it takes money and travel to really prove a stallion. It's kind of sad how many people think winning a $3 halter class at Selkirk Rodeo is a determining factor in keeping a stallions nads. Heck, at least they TRY! It's more sad how many people pimp fugly stallions for nothing but color and pedigree. I swear, no statement infuriates me more than "OWN SON OF BLAH BLAH BLAH". OWN son? As opposed to a disowned son? Unowned son? Stepson? It only EVER seems to be a precursor statement to "because this stallion has done literally nothing but eat and crap it's entire life so hopefully someone remembers that his sire won that reining class like ten years ago." LOL

I guess all areas have that, it just seems the "norm" here compared to people who actually know what the heck they're doing and actually campaign a stallion!
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## DraftyAiresMum

ROFL! That statement is one of my pet peeves, too!!
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## dbarabians

I do not agree with cross breeding any mare from a rare breed and IMO can see no reason to cross a Fresian with anything.
Whats the big deal? Cross breeding does not harm the purebreds and as a stallion owner recouping the cost of a stallion and breeding operation .
How the owners make their money is no business of the registries if it is done ethically. Shalom


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## Saddlebag

I will defend advertising horses/stallions on kijiji. Our prairie provinces are huge and kijiji has become a great medium for advertising anything for sale. Good stallions are often many miles apart so by shopping kijiji one decides if travelling so many miles is an option.


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## Sherian

Actually advertising on Kijji makes sense, especially if you are aiming for "multidisicpline' market. We all look at it, and we do not all look at all the breed or discipline specific websites(half of which are chronically out of date), alot of horse related events are advertised on it, so again people are on it browsing and it is area specific.
The stud is registered, inspected and actually being ridden which is better than half the stallions people breed because they are a pretty colour or have a big name ancestor 5 generations back.
Freisians aren't my cup of tea so I have no idea which registeries pull breeding approvals and which don't.


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## Speed Racer

dbarabians said:


> Whats the big deal? Cross breeding does not harm the purebreds and as a stallion owner recouping the cost of a stallion and breeding operation .
> How the owners make their money is no business of the registries if it is done ethically. Shalom


The 'big deal' is that it's part of the Friesian registry by-laws that an owner will abide by the 'no outcrossing' ruling or their horses lose their breeding status and registration. 

An owner deliberately outcrossing when they KNOW it's against the registry's requirements is hardly what I'd consider ethical.


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## dbarabians

Speedracer are the North American Associations independent of the Dutch registry?
Each breed can set its own rules but with the numbers of Friesan stallions being used for cross breeding could the registries be shooting themselves in the foot so to speak?
Thanks for the explaination. Shalom


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## Southern Grace

I knew that was the case with mares, as the mare's are more limited on foals, but I did not know that was the case with stallions. I've seen so many Friesian sporthorses, amazing to think that those stallions are loosing their registration. There are a couple of stallions near me that advertise "Our Top Rated, 1st Premium, homozygous black, Dutch imported and registered, Friesian Stallions are available for Cross Breeding to ANY mare!" So they are not actually Dutch registered anymore because they have been used for crossbreeding?


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## kenda

From the FHANA website:

*"Q. Is cross breeding allowed? *

A. No. The rules of FHANA strictly forbid the breeding of KFPS registered Friesian horses with other breeds."

Frequently Asked Questions - FHANA - Friesian Horse Association of North America


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## DraftyAiresMum

I could be mistaken, but isn't the friesian one of the so-called "reclaimed" breeds? I could have sworn that I read somewhere that the friesian as it's own breed was nearly lost due to an over abundance of cross-breeding, so the breed societies made the "no cross-breeding" rule to try to reclaim the breed, which is why you have the two types of friesians (the heavier baroque-style and the lighter modern-style).
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## MacabreMikolaj

I have no issue with advertising on Kijiji, but will admit that from the amount of time I spend scrolling through ads, you rarely find anything of quality. Every so often you do, and virtually any horse priced at over $5,000 seems to have an ad up for EONS. People looking for quality don't typically shop on Kijiji. 

We have an awesome resource site specifically for Manitoba horse people that connects you to local barns, trainers, coaches, farriers, stallions, etc. I also tend to see ads for bigger name stallions and sale horses in our local tack stores. 

Definitly Kijiji can be a good resource, but one rarely used by more prominant horse people as it doesn't often attract the type of clients one would want when talking about the bigger bucks. 

And I agree about the cross breeding. Pimping your 1st Premium purebred stud to any ol' mess of a mare that will pay your fee in direct violation of your registries request/requirement speaks volumes about that individual as a horse person I think. Virtually everyone I know in this area with a Friesen, Andalusian/Lusitano or even a cheaper Warmblood stud breeds it to everything with four legs and fur in desperate hope they can sell the babies for a few thousand a pop. And then after the first crop or two fail, you inevitably end up seeing the stud for sale LOL

Definitely we do have some responsible breeders, but the number of Kijiji ads I see for "get rich quicl babies" that someone thinks is worth money just because it's daddy was an Andalusian (and momma was a fugly PMU Draft QH cross with purty kolor) is really sad. I came across one recently breeding a nice pinto Warmblood stud to a TRAIN WRECK of flashy kolored pinto Heinz 57 mare and baby came out brown from head to toe without a speck of white. How much you wanna bet it wouldn't be for sale if it came put "krazy kolored" which was clearly the intention? *shakes head*
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## MacabreMikolaj

Also dbarabians:

You have to remember that a stallion having a ton of worthless progeny ultimately lowers the worth of that stallion and the bloodlines involved as well. The more people that can lay claim to that stallions name and ultimately the name of it's legendary sire with horses that do not even come CLOSE to doing it any justice makes that line less sought after. 

I have a friend who has a gorgeous Paint barrel racing stallion who is a champion all the way aroud - locally, provincially and even nationally. She only has a few crops of a couple foals a year from him - the oldest crop is turning 5 this year and really blowing away the competition in barrel racing. Every rideable baby he has right now is being proven in the show ring either by his owner or the select friends she's chosen to sell that progeny to and help campaign them. 

This is the way to own a stallion. People are impressed when you can quote high percentages of competing progeny that are winning because someone tool the time to prove them. He stands at public stud now and has an impressive list of accomishments, including being a proven sire. People will buy his babies because they are WORTH something coming from a stallion who has proven his worth as a competitor and sire. 

Turn around and take someone who breeds their purebred flawless mare to this Friesen stallion and really has a baby that's worth something in the breed. If she's trying to sell that baby and competing with six other ads also selling his progeny from worthless mares, that instantly lowers the value of her foal by the "commoness" of his bloodlines now. 

It really is an economy game too. People don't realize what a negative impact saturating a market with a specific bloodline is, especially when it's being crossed on less than note worthy horses. Breeding a top stud to a crap mare doesn't make the baby worth money if it comes out just as crappy. All it does is pull down the worth of legitematly nice foals!
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## Sherian

macabremikolaj what's the resource site for Manitoba?


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## dbarabians

I see your point M&M, I hope you dont mind that I shortened your name.
I also own a stallion but do not breed for any particular discipline.
I want a versatile individual that is affordable and correct.
I see so many Friesan stallions listed for crossbreeding I find it hard to believe that a registry would kick so many horses out for simply breeding.
Even the big reigistries are suffering from lower numbers of foals being registered each year and are relaxing their rules and allowing older horses to be registered. Can the Friesan registries afford to lose good paying members? Shalom


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## MacabreMikolaj

Manitoba Equine Directory - Home

I love it. It's well managed and maintained and just about everyone owning a horse associated business is listed. It's my go to for most things.
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## Sherian

thanks Mac
I find the horse market here is champagne tastes on a beer budget with a lot people trying to pass off some cheap wine with bubbles as champagne


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## apachiedragon

dbarabians said:


> I see so many Friesan stallions listed for crossbreeding I find it hard to believe that a registry would kick so many horses out for simply breeding.
> Even the big reigistries are suffering from lower numbers of foals being registered each year and are relaxing their rules and allowing older horses to be registered. Can the Friesan registries afford to lose good paying members? Shalom


The reason that rule was added in the first place was an attempt to protect the breed, IMO. They were hoping that it would discourage crossbreeding and help increase their numbers. Logically, breeders would not want to risk their coveted registration to crossbreed, if they cared enough to have a high quality registered stallion in the first place.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Haha great analogy Sherian, I agree!
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## KyMoMoF3CuTiEs

I have a friend that owns an app/freisan and you talk about beautiful! He has papers, but I think it may be suger rush? Hmmm. Or something. But, around here paint and app crossbred to freisans are all around. With papers. I'm gonna find a picture of this app cross n post it.
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## KyMoMoF3CuTiEs

Majestic Eros Friesian This is his pedigree

He is registerd with FSHR and with the Sugarbush I guess.... I know nothing of pedigree.. All I know is I am a sucker for spots of any kind !!! :lol:


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## TurkishVan

They would get in BIG trouble if he were actually an APPROVED Friesian stud. He's 1st premie, sure, but that's still not approved. That process takes a while, and a LOT of money. There are quite a few people that don't want to go through that process, and just skip it. Or they try, and get turned down at the first part of the inspection. Then they end up doing this. I see a lot of unapproved Friesian stallions breeding everything in sight. You'd think FHANA would be aware of it, but there are just so many that I don't think they can keep track!

I really get sick of the "Oooh! Pretty hair! Gotta breed it to everything with 4 legs! Your horse only has 3 legs? No matter! We'll get a stilt to prop her up while he does the deed!"
Sheesh!

I've had 2 people approach me with purebred "1st premie" Friesian stallions that they wanted to breed to my (FHANA registered) Friesian mare. It'd make their stallions look great, as the foal would probably turn out okay, but it'd make my mare look like trailer trash and, as someone already stated, would put her at risk for getting kicked out of the Studbook. Also, a lot of Friesian mares have trouble with the birthing process, so why would I breed my mare to a stud that isn't approved, and make that risk? Why not make the risk on a foal that is registerable, and that will continue to compliment the breed?


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## dbarabians

I understand fully well not breeding a mare from a rare breed. crossbreeding such a mare is a waste of time IMO and her abilities used to produce purebreds.
However i see lots of stallions advertised for outcrossing and some are very nice and are approved.
Looks to be an open secret and perhaps if the stallion is well known and owned by someone with connections the breed association is going to ignore this violation.
I have a friend that has a half arabian /friesian out of her arab mare. the stallion was imported and his owners spent tens of thousands buying him and getting him here. How they recoup their investment IMO is their business. Shalom


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## Chiilaa

dbarabians said:


> I understand fully well not breeding a mare from a rare breed. crossbreeding such a mare is a waste of time IMO and her abilities used to produce purebreds.
> However i see lots of stallions advertised for outcrossing and some are very nice and are approved.
> Looks to be an open secret and perhaps if the stallion is well known and owned by someone with connections the breed association is going to ignore this violation.
> I have a friend that has a half arabian /friesian out of her arab mare. the stallion was imported and his owners spent tens of thousands buying him and getting him here. How they recoup their investment IMO is their business. Shalom


Sure, that's their business. Just like it is up to the registry to be able to decide who they give registration to, and who/why they take it away from.


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## FrostedLilly

You know, I was curious about this the other day. The stable where I currently ride raises Arabians and Arabian crosses and when I was there the other day, someone was grooming a Friesian/Arab cross. To say this horse was gorgeous was an understatement. Of course I didn't want to question the BO on the Friesian sire's merits so I actually looked it up. I didn't see anywhere that it states they can't outcross; I'll admit, I skimmed the website, but I looked at the bylaws and registry overview and I didn't see this mentioned anywhere. Is it possible they have relaxed on this rule a little? Of course, it is also very possible I missed reading it or just looked in the wrong spot.

Registry Overview - FHANA - Friesian Horse Association of North America


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## apachiedragon

Glynnis said:


> You know, I was curious about this the other day. The stable where I currently ride raises Arabians and Arabian crosses and when I was there the other day, someone was grooming a Friesian/Arab cross. To say this horse was gorgeous was an understatement. Of course I didn't want to question the BO on the Friesian sire's merits so I actually looked it up. I didn't see anywhere that it states they can't outcross; I'll admit, I skimmed the website, but I looked at the bylaws and registry overview and I didn't see this mentioned anywhere. Is it possible they have relaxed on this rule a little? Of course, it is also very possible I missed reading it or just looked in the wrong spot.


About halfway down the page,

"Q. Is cross breeding allowed?

A. No. The rules of FHANA strictly forbid the breeding of KFPS registered Friesian horses with other breeds."

Frequently Asked Questions - FHANA - Friesian Horse Association of North America


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## FrostedLilly

Ha! Of course, I missed it!


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## dbarabians

So basically if the Friesian Sport Horse Registry does not disclose the names of the purebred sires and dams used for outcrossing then breeders are safe from losing the registration on their stallions and mares. Shalom


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## apachiedragon

Maybe so, but it would be pretty shady business to try to hide it when you know it's against the rules. Not someone I would want to do business with for sure.


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## FrostedLilly

> Maybe so, but it would be pretty shady business to try to hide it when you know it's against the rules.


I agree with you. I don't necessarily agree with the rule, but I don't own or plan to own or breed Friesians. And I don't think I could purposely be dishonest. Especially if I know that the offspring would be registered with another association, for example, part-arab. All someone would have to do if they suspected someone of outcrossing is look in datasource. I would be nervous and paranoid all the time!

I wonder why the reasoning still stands in the first place though. I understand, originally, it was to help preserve the breed, but now it just seems a little protectionist. If you bred a Friesian stallion to an outside mare or vice versa, it doesn't make them any less a Friesian. Are they still that rare?


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## stevenson

I have not heard of a half freisen registry. Another breed that does not allow cross breeding is norweigen Fjord. And if you have a fjord and the original breeder / farm sold her w/o papers , you cannot get the papers, even if you have the registered name and reg number, even with dna testing. So make sure you walk off with papers in your hand !!


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## apachiedragon

I didn't know that about fjords. Interesting.


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## tempest

It depends on which registry the Friesian is registered with, as someone posted earlier. If it's the stricter registry, there's no doubt they can lose their registry. If it's the one that is less strict they won't necessarily lose their registration.


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## stevenson

sigh, I found that out about the fjords the hard way. USA and Canadian registry. But i am not breeding, so its not a big deal.


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## FrostedLilly

stevenson said:


> I have not heard of a half freisen registry.


Not sure if you were referring to my post, or just stating in general, but thought I would clarify anyhow. And if it was clear to begin with and you were just commenting, then I apologize. I was referring to other registries where you could register the offspring, for example the Arabian Horse Association. Chances are, if you registered the resulting foal, you would probably put some record of the stud and his breed, if not all of his registration information. It wouldn't be too difficult to find out and would seem a huge risk - at least for someone as risk averse as I am! However, it has been mentioned a few times, it seems registry dependent. Some allow outcrossings.


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## dbarabians

Glynnis when i breed an Arabian to any breed besides a TB or ASB I do not put the name or breed of the horse.
Half arabians do not require dna verification and IMO the Arab registry is only concerned with the arabian parents lineage. I usually put grade QH
ASB's and TBs though are different. Anglo Arabs and NSH's are breeds and both sides of the pedigree need to be verified. 
You can breed all the half arab/friesians you want and the friesian registry would not find out. Shalom


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## FrostedLilly

Hey thanks DB. I obviously don't have much experience registering with the AHA! Thanks for the insight.


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## Tryst

As stated there is a huge difference between a purebred Friesian colt going to his inspection and being graded first premie and to an inspected and approved stallion that is approved for breeding by FHANA. To be approved by FHANA there is a rigorous process which you can read about here: Rules & Regulations - FHANA - Friesian Horse Association of North America. Once stallions are approved they can still lose their status if their foals are not of a high enough quality or they produce too many foals with too much white. Out of all of the USA this is the entire list of living approved stallions (FHANA): North American Stallions - FHANA - Friesian Horse Association of North America. So this leaves MANY purebred colts that are not approved stallions that are out there breeding and making crossbreds and purebreds, however as I understand it only foals out of the 100 or so approved stallions can be registered for the higher levels of the stud book.


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## dbarabians

So , the stallions are still purebred and registered just not of the higher approved levels?
i do know that there are different levels of purebreds and they must be inspected.
However are the purebred foals from less than premium mares and stallions still registered?
Excuse my ingnorance, but my interest in a breed I am not a fan of, has suddenly increased. Shalom


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## Tryst

You can read more here: Registry Overview - FHANA - Friesian Horse Association of North America

It used to be that those foals out of mares that are approved and by non-approved stallions (that are in the foal book) were registered as B-Book II. But it Looks like any foal after 2008 out of non-approved stallion can not be registered.

I am not an expert on the matter either.


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## BoldComic

We have a big friesen farm in our little valley and they will breed their stud to anyone who will pay... not saying it's a good thing... just that I find this thread very interesting because of their practices.


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## my2geldings

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Looks to me like she just hasn't been caught yet or she's lying. Seriously, who advertises their 1st Premium friesian stud in frigging Kijiji?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was thinking the exact same thing. No serious breeder with a well bred stallion is going to be putting really ridiculous ads like that on kijiji. Someone should email the registry with a link to the ad though ;-)


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## its lbs not miles

First, as TukishVan and Tryst basically pointed out, the stallion does not "lose" it's registration. It doesn't suddenly stop being a pure blooded Friesian stallion. If it has made it to the breeding stud book in the Dutch registry it will loose it's position and status there and be dropped from the list of stallions approved for breeding.
Relatively speaking very few stallions get there. Most that make become STER don't. Not because they can't, but it is a lot of work, time and money
Now, that's for the Dutch registry. The requirements are not the same outside of Holland. Different registries exist in other countries and they can each have their own requirements which may or may not be the same (e.g. the FPVZ in Germany differs from the Dutch FPS, and there must be at least 3 different registries in the US. Some of which will certainly differ from the FPS). Some don't allow it for approved breeding stallions (e.g. the FPS), but most do allow cross breeding.

As DraftyAriesMum comment about. Yes, todays Friesian is a breed that had to be basically brought back from the brink. They did this by cross breeding (oh parish the thought :lol and not so very long ago really. They used breeds that had used Friesians in their development. Basically the same as if it had to be done today they might use the Friesian Sporthorse to help bring back the breed.

The Friesian is (and historically as been) a great breed for improving and developing breeds. In much the same way the Arabian has been used, but for different traits. (calm, strong bones, etc..)

For those who think it's a bad idea to cross just keep in mind that ALL of the breeds we have today (all the way back to first "recorded" horses used my man for which we have documented records) were the product of (selective and non selective) cross breeding. Sometimes we end up with superior horses and sometimes not. Ultimately time sorts out the breeds that we like to keep around (for whatever reason).

So when you go out and look at that horse (or those horses) that you love so much keep in mind that that animal is the product of someone, somewhere at some time breeding a stallion from one breed (or perhaps a cross breed) to a mare from another breed (or perhaps some other cross breed) and over time, no matter what the breed, the end product is what you're riding today.


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## Friesianfreak

I am the owner of Alde fan Aurelius and was informed about this thread by a friend. Glad to some educated folk here! Disappointed in some of the assumptions by others. I most definately am NOT lying about my stallion. He was inspected at Olds Alberta by FHANA judges. I own 3 FHANA registered friesians. Stallion, mare and gelding. All have been inspected. I drove them myself. Alde's papers are listed on my fb page. There are folders there of all my horses including my purebred lippizaners. Since I have been widowed the cost of frozen semen with my mare has become too much. I offer breeding for purebred Lippizaner or friesian but must have the client pay for the semen and costs involved and commit to buying the foal once born. I don't have the room or the money to have $10,000 foals sitting around the property while the horse market continues the way it has been.
Thanks for the interesting reading and I invite you all to take a look at my Facebook page Aurelius Acres Friesian Horses. If you have any further questions or concerns about my stallion or would just like to chat about the breed, please feel free to contact me there. 
Take care all!
Sharmyn Hamilton
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## Marcie

I have no business posting here probably but as someone who loves Friesians and actually has done articles for hobby sites regarding them and a few other Baroques I'm throwing in my two cents anyways.

The link you all were posting back in May, (Frequently Asked Questions - FHANA - Friesian Horse Association of North America)that says that No Friesians may be crossbred now has a different answer to that question. It now says,


> Q. Is cross breeding allowed?
> 
> A. The rules of FHANA strongly discourage the breeding of KFPS registered Friesian horses with other breeds.


Previously, I had done some research on Warlanders, which are Friesian/Iberian (usually Andalusian or Lusitano), mixes. The Warlander Registry requires that the dam and sire are registered with their respective registries and this includes the FHANA. Now I don't see anywhere on the FHANA page that says, yes, breed these horses together please. BUT I think they must have realized or made a deal with whoever and had their strict rules changed to accommodate at least this one other registry. 

I have also seen Warlanders listed online as being triple registered, with each respective breed registry. So either the registry and the owners are all lying or rules have indeed changed. I'm off to see if I can dig up WHY exactly they changed their rules and what they are now, more specifically than, 'highly discouraged.'


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## Guest

Interesting enough a Friesian receiving a 1 premium as a Foal means nothing at all! It is what they get rated the second time is what counts! Looking at this particular persons horses papers, she has cut off the part where it says the horse only received 1 premium as a foal and not what the horse was rated as an adult, in which she never has brought back for his second inspection by the dutch judges. False advertising..... uh yes! Do your homework people.


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