# Stubborn Mare



## Wrangler2019 (Feb 20, 2020)

I am in need of some advice for my 15 year old Morgan/Frisian Mare! She is a western pleasure horse who I have ambitions to train to be a cutting horse. Problem is, she refuses to lope/canter/gallop. I give her light leg cues, then increase the pressure. If after a few steps she ignores the cue, I take my spur and apply very light pressure, and if she ignores it then I kick her very lightly with them. I take care not to be violent with my cues and to not be frustrated. When I do see myself getting frustrated. I stop her, I take a few deep breaths, do lateral flexations for a few minutes, and then try again. I ride in a mecate headstall as you can tell by the profile picture, and with it is a lead rope with a leather popper on the end. This weekend I asked her to go into a trot using only vocal commands, and she listened. But as soon as I ask for a lope/canter, she ignores all cues. I lightly used the popper after trying verbal and leg cues, and she crow hopped. Being that she is a draft mix, it felt abrupt and more than a crow hop. She throws her head down and basically gives me the middle finger. I watch Clinton Anderson videos, my boss is Scott Depaolo.
My fellow wranglers tell me that if she crow hops, that I should keep driving her forward and keep her head up when she tries to lower it, but so far the most I have been able to do is keep her head up when she lowers it, but she still manages to throw her feet up in some way. I understand she is trying to tell me she doesn´t want to, but I am trying to tell her I want her to. It is not asking too much of her, and I know she is more than capable of doing it. 

I have also taken into consideration that someone might say to have a vet examine her. There are multiple vets who are wranglers on the ranch, and they each have said that she is perfectly sound and has excellent confirmation, she also just had new shoes put on, no signs of thrush or arthritis either. 

What can I do ease into the transition that I am not doing, and what might she be trying to tell me/ what am I doing wrong?


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## Interstellar (Feb 15, 2020)

Have they checked her back and teeth though? She sounds sore and like she's saying no for a reason.
Does she gallop out in the pasture with her friends alright? 

What about saddle fit? 

Another question - has someone else gotten on her and been able to make her do it? If so, then there's something wrong with your cues or her respect with you. If not, I'd say have one of them sit on her and see if they can get it.


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## Wrangler2019 (Feb 20, 2020)

Her back and teeth are perfectly sound, they each spent about an hour looking over everything that might be the cause of her saying no. I always do groundwork with her before getting on, and she is always tight and needs reminding that I am directing her and she needs to listen. I have semi-quarter horse bars on my 1970ś Circle Y cutting saddle, and I double up on my saddle pad to prevent any sort of rubbing, and after I re-tighten the front and rear cinch I asked the vets to check to see if the fit was right and they said it was perfect for her. 

I asked my trainer to get on her, and after about a half hour or so of crow hopping and tumbling around, he was able to get her to lope, but he was having the same issues I was, only he used the popper sooner and was less asking, more commanding. Not in an abusive way, but more of a ¨I am not here to play, I am here to get stuff done and you are being lazy and stubborn because you are refusing to do as asked¨. I am her main rider, there has only been two other riders in the past that have worked with her, but not at the extent I have been for the past 3 years or so. 

I think it is a respect issue, she respects me on the ground, but as soon as I get in the saddle and ask for more than a trot, she immediately gets attitude and throws teenage sass like I sometimes do to my parents. I relate to it, which is why I understand what is happening, I just don´t know how to work with it and tell her that we are working, not being lazy. How do I get her respect in the saddle to move past this obstacle?


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## Interstellar (Feb 15, 2020)

Just like the person who got her loping before did. Demanding it. It may take 30 minutes the first few times, but you have to be persistent and mean about it. Dig your spur in, pop her with the leather popper or even an English bat could help. Make. Her. Go. Forward. 
There isn't a nice way to say it if she isn't responding to nice.


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## Wrangler2019 (Feb 20, 2020)

Ok, no more mr. niceguy, keep it humane, keep it reasonable, but demand it. No more asking nicely. I can do that. Also, when I back her up, she throws her head up and tries to resist the bit and leans forward to get away from it. I am using a plain loose ring snaffle and applying little pressure and moving the reins back and forth instead of pulling back with both reins at the same time. I spend about 30 minutes or more on lateral flexation to try and loosen her up as well as to get her to lower her head naturally, but when I go to back her up, she just wants to make it hard on herself. Do I start out with flexing her all the way to the stirrup on each side and then over time as she loosens up move to just flexing her to her shoulder then her chest muscle then a few inches from the starting point to try and have her bend her head so that when I ask her to back up, all I do is slowly go back and forth until she backs up with little pressure? Or am I making it seem easier than it actually is inside my head? I have heard that a training fork is a great aid in this process, and I learned English with a German martingale before I transferred to western in the past 4 years, so I know how to use one, I am wondering if it would help her learn better by limiting how high she can raise her head?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Semi-quarter horse bars sounds _really_ narrow for a Morgan/Friesian. (Are Friesians that narrow?)

It wouldn't hurt to try a few rides in a wider saddle just to see if that helps. I'm not saying to go out and buy a new saddle, but just see if you can borrow something wider to see if she moves better for a ride or two.

I know from experience that I can make my horse trippy if the saddle doesn't fit her right. So it can definitely effect how they move and feel. 

Just something cheap and easy to try. Wouldn't it be wonderful if that's all it was? She might just need a differently fitting saddle.


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## Interstellar (Feb 15, 2020)

I wouldn't put something on her to make her lower her head at this point, because I'd be worried she'd throw her head and go over backwards (had it happen to me when I tried that move as a teenager, so I'm speaking from experience). 

What I do with my current hunter who used to like to pull through the halt transition is to halt from the trot, and when he leans down on my hands in the halt, make him stand. Just having him stand was step one. Once he stood nicely, I'd get his jaw soft. At first this looked like nothing and was a feeling in my reins, but little by little it turned into flexion and now total softness in his poll. 

Then go for one step of backing. Just one step. If she does that well, reward and keep it light for the day. The next time you work on it, ask for two steps. Do this until she does it without throwing her head. So on and so forth.

Don't go into training situations asking for everything all at once. You have to take small victories to build the big ones into.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Can you get her to canter on a lunge line? With and without the saddle?


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## Wrangler2019 (Feb 20, 2020)

I tried a slightly wider saddle to see if it was tight, and I had the same results, I even tried a neoprene cinch that was specially cut out to avoid the armpits to see if it was rubbing her too much, same results. It is not necessarily throwing her head, more like raising it as the pressure increases to resist it, it is gradual, not all at once. I am only considering a training fork because I have never had her violently throw her head up, she has only spooked once but in that instance all she did was run. For me, the training fork is different than a traditional martingale because it allows the rider to control how high they can raise their head by using the reins. The tighter the reins, the less they can raise their head. In an emergency, I can give her slack, and she has full access to her head.


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## Wrangler2019 (Feb 20, 2020)

I can get her to lope/canter/gallop on the ground with not too much resistance. I have to get her going and remind her that I am in charge, but she will do it after a few reminders and turns. She will give me two eyes when I ask for it, it is only in the saddle that I have issues. Another thing I should mention is that she will trot fast to avoid the lope and will direct herself towards other horses in the arena (two or three at most in a corner practicing roping) to avoid going straight because she knows it will let her slow down and I have to re-gather the loose rein to re-direct her. Bad habits have developed, and it is not helping my case at all. I think I should go back to the basics, trot in a straight line, around cones, break the bad habits before trying to ask for more. I think I am going too fast and not fixing what is the fundamentals to a lope.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

FWIW I have heard some people say that spurs should only be used to cue for lateral movement, not forward movement. That strong requests for lateral movement should come from the hind end, e.g. a dressage whip (used with restraint, obviously).

Having said that, I think that going back and making sure all the basics are in place is a super idea. You can never go wrong taking a step back and making sure everything is in place.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

My first thoughts:

Get a real saddle fitter out and make _sure _that saddle isn't hurting her.

If she backs up easily from the ground but not when you are riding her, the problem is in your cues. Backing up is essentially gathering your horse up to go forward but not allowing forward as an option, hence the horse learns that the rewarding (released from presssure) direction is backward. It is not _pulling_ the horse backward. There is no "pulling", whether alternating or steady. 

Frankly what it sounds like is a very green horse with a green rider who is not able to train correct responses because the experience is not there yet, who is well on the way to making some real problems only a pro will be able to solve. The best answer is send her to a good trainer, and work with that trainer until you can get the responses you want and you know when and why you are getting them, and how to increase consistency and lightness.

I do not see this horse as stubborn, I see her as simply trying to do the most comfortable thing, and you don't know how to shape her behavior.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Wrangler2019 said:


> I can get her to lope/canter/gallop on the ground with not too much resistance. I have to get her going and remind her that I am in charge, but she will do it after a few reminders and turns. She will give me two eyes when I ask for it, it is only in the saddle that I have issues. Another thing I should mention is that she will trot fast to avoid the lope and will direct herself towards other horses in the arena (two or three at most in a corner practicing roping) to avoid going straight because she knows it will let her slow down and I have to re-gather the loose rein to re-direct her. Bad habits have developed, and it is not helping my case at all. I think I should go back to the basics, trot in a straight line, around cones, break the bad habits before trying to ask for more. I think I am going too fast and not fixing what is the fundamentals to a lope.


Could you get someone to lunge you and try to get her to canter/lope - first without you and then with you onboard? That will help you isolate the issue - is she disrespecting you in the saddle or is she refusing to canter with a rider? Go on from there.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

First of all, if this mare has trouble with her forward, then spend less time backing her up, or if you do, do it on the ground, with a rope halter, and back her up on a curve. This will help to 'unstick' her legs. But, please keep in mind that it sounds like she has a lot more of the Freisian in her than anything else.


AS a draft breed, they find it harder to back up. Really, they do. Friesians also have a very high head set, and will naturally throw their heads up higher than most. Again, work on getter her softer back up from the ground.


Do not use spurs for forward. Get a dressage whip. It is easier to handle and apply quickly, immediately after her refusal.


If you work in a round pen, work on getting a canter depart only. Get her to go up to the canter without too much time elapsing, then allow her to either carry that canter as long as she wishes, or to just fall back into a trot if she wishes. It is the DEPART that is import, a willing depart. That's all. once she gets that, she has found freedom. Do that quite a bit, both directions, but only maybe 2 sessions . Use a kissing sound at the same time as you ask for that upward transition with a lunge whip.



Then, when you see her depart into a canter, and she starts to fall out, see if you can get another 'depart' before she actually falls fully out. Little by little, you build her willingness to depart, and re-depart sooner. until she is 'correctable' when she wants to fall out of the canter. But for now, her issue is the Depart, so get that, and reward big for that only.


All these steering issues in the arena tell me that you really don't have enough of a seat nor control of the reins and your horse to be concerning yourself about a good canter circle. IF you can get a short depart on the straightaway, consider that a win for you. 



You need to work more on getting a better seat at the trot, and better able to control her at that gait. IF she is used to being ridden with direct reining, stick with that. If you are trying to neck rein, she sounds as if she is not ready for that, nor are you.


I do not think she is a bad horse, nor you a bad rider. I beleive a good future awaits for you two.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, Yes, first I'd want to do was thoroughly check her out physically. Vets may be good at 'vetting' but if they're not specialised in bodywork of equines(or saddle fitting), it's possible they don't know much on that front, so... maybe they're right, but worth considering further. And telling what your saddle is, and that you double up on padding doesn't mean it fits - actually generally more likely to NOT fit & be uncomfortable if you must have double padding. Apparently, studies done with pressure sensors show that there is a heap more force from any 'pressure points' at a canter as at a walk or trot.



> I always do groundwork with her before getting on, and she is always tight and needs reminding that I am directing her and she needs to listen.


Sounds like she may need some more incentive to get her *wanting* to listen to you. Rewarding her for the Good Stuff would help there.

I have semi-quarter horse bars on my 1970ś Circle Y cutting saddle, and I double up on my saddle pad to prevent any sort of rubbing, and after I re-tighten the front and rear cinch I asked the vets to check to see if the fit was right and they said it was perfect for her. 


> I asked Scott Depaolo to get on her, and after about a half hour or so of crow hopping and tumbling around, he was able to get her to lope, but he was having the same issues I was, only he used the popper sooner and was less asking, more commanding.


Assuming it is just 'behavioural'(& not anything to do with fear or confusion), it may be that she has learned this works for her, so you need to be prepared to 'up the ante' and do what/as much as it takes to get what you want & ensure that the 'wrong' behaviour never works for her again.

I am genuinely interested to know why, working for someone who is a professional trainer/clinician, why are you asking here? Do you have a problem with this guy's methods, or he's not willing or able to teach you, or...?



> being lazy and stubborn because you are refusing to do as asked


I don't believe she is being 'lazy & stubborn', because I believe they're human ethics that aren't helpful. She is purely learning(or learned) to do what works for her, to get her out of doing something she doesn't want to do. If you've been riding her & getting this - or rather not getting it - for 3 years, then she will be extremely 'well trained' in this behaviour, so it will take a LOT of patience, time and utter consistency to get her out of it, and she will still likely 'try it on' at odd times & with different people.



> I think it is a respect issue, she respects me on the ground


Yes, it's a respect issue. But while I know it's a popular 'catch phrase', that's a bit of a... stating of the obvious, like saying 'I believe the problem is obedience'. Of COURSE it is, but it's unhelpful to say so. I do not believe the horse 'respects' you on the ground either, if she's 'tight' & you need to be constantly getting after her. 'Respect' to me is a 2-way street - you must have/show respect & consideration for the horse, in order to *EARN* it from her. Respect is about understanding & consideration.



> throws teenage sass like I sometimes do to my parents. I relate to it, which is why I understand what is happening,


Maybe she is - entirely possible. But it's possible what you're 'relating' to is purely your perception based on your own personality/behaviour. Just be careful not to 'project' onto the horse what may not be going on.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Wrangler2019 said:


> Also, when I back her up, she throws her head up and tries to resist the bit and leans forward to get away from it. I am using a plain loose ring snaffle and applying little pressure and moving the reins back and forth


Is it possible the bit is hurting her, or she hasn't been trained to yield to gentle pressure *before* using a bit? Sounds like she has pain/fear of pain from the bit. I'd go back & get her doing this on the ground, and without a bit. Also I would not personally be doing 'back & forth', but I take a light 'hold' - rather than actual pull - but I might 'jig' lightly if needed.



> I spend about 30 minutes or more on lateral flexation to try and loosen her up as well as to get her to lower her head naturally, but when I go to back her up, she just wants to make it hard on herself.


No. She does NOT *want* to make it hard on herself, there is something going on, that she either can't physically, doesn't understand or is scared to respond to for some reason if she's so bracey. Doing 30 mins or thereabouts of the same exercise is something that's likely to make her bored, frustrated... more resistant, IME.



> Do I start out with flexing her all the way to the stirrup on each side and then over time as she loosens up move to just flexing her to her shoulder


No, the exact opposite. If you want her to learn to flex softly, you need to show her it 'works' for her to do so. Therefore you need to teach this in 'baby steps', make it easy for her, rewarding her first for the 'smallest tries'. Only once you get 'the basics' do you gradually start doing more 'difficult' things. 



> I have heard that a training fork is a great aid in this process, and I learned English with a German martingale before I transferred to western in the past 4 years, so I know how to use one, I am wondering if it would help her learn better by limiting how high she can raise her head?


No, bad idea. I disagree it is a good aid, especially if you aren't understanding the basic principles of training yet. It does not limit her raising her head, but esp if you're at all heavy handed, it will just give her something more to resist, be frustrated about.


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## CynthiaAborn (Dec 21, 2013)

I would get the saddle checked by a good fitter and have an actual body worker look at her, semi quarter bars are probably the equivalent of a medium english saddle, I have myself a half arab and a Tennessee Walker that both require full quarter bars, even my thoroughbred is a bit wide for semi quarter bars. If you're then stacking two pads underneath (and in my experience western pads are fairly thick) you may have a super narrow saddle then which if your mare is Morgan and Friesian she's probably fairly wide. This could be like you buying a set of shoes that are a size too small and then putting on two pairs of thick socks so they won't rub. If the saddle fits well you shouldn't even need one pad really, it's more just there to keep the saddle clean. As for a chiro I was having major issues with my tb turning into a total terror for saddling, had the chiro out and she did one session on him and he was immediately back to standing quietly and moving much better undersaddle. Also do lots of lunging at the canter from the ground to help her build up the muscles without a rider, she may be unbalanced, especially with a rider, and it might be easier to get after her from the ground and then once she's stronger and has the idea it might be easier under saddle.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^The other thing about saying 'quarter horse bars' or such is that there is NO regulation on what that size means. Even sometimes with saddles from the same maker. So aside from them *commonly* being too narrow for many horses, it really gives no idea about the fit for THAT saddle & for YOUR horse.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

It would be easier to give more helpful advice if you could post a couple of videos. First one of the horse moving in a round pen, arena or on a lunge line, without a rider. Then one with you attempting to get the horse to canter.

These would help us spot any issues with saddle fit or placement, movement issues with the horse, or we might be able to see that the horse is getting confused. If the horse moves very well when not under saddle, and wants to be forward, then the issue is with the tack or the rider. 

If the horse has a short back and the saddle is too long, or if the saddle is being placed on the horse's shoulder, if the rider is asking for the head to be carried lower than anatomically possible for the horse to balance at the canter, if the rider is giving conflicting cues, any number of things could be causing this issue.

A Friesian cross can have several different anatomical issues that make it difficult to balance at the canter. They often find trotting a lot easier, and avoid cantering. Some I have been around required hind end strengthening for some time before they could canter well under saddle. To begin with, avoid trying to canter in a small area or around a circle. Pick long, straight lines and don't try to gather the horse up or make her go slow while she is learning balance and strength. 
A friend of mine has been working for a couple of years on strengthening her big Friesian cross, and he can now canter in large circles, and fairly slow, but it still takes a bit of convincing to get him to pick up a canter. He is unable to go in small circles - his hind end is not strong enough. However, he has a fantastic extended trot. For quite some time he was only worked on straight lines at the canter, and allowed to learn to carry himself, which meant he moved pretty big and fast.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

With a horse that is sound I would go back to a little ground work with the intent of honing the verbal cue for the canter & have the horse learn to canter relaxed while carrying a saddle. Pick a verbal cue that is specific to the canter. Ask her to canter with this cue & reinforce the cue with you aid (cue stick, whip, flag) if they do not respond to the verbal cue. Do this with the horse saddled up and work her in both direction. Continue this ground work each day until the horse picks up the canter/lope consistently from only the verbal cue without the assistance of an aid. Once she is perfect at the ground work then attempt to canter from the saddle using the same verbal cue the horse has learned. You may want to have another person assist from the ground with a flag or cue stick in case the horse if reluctant to pick up the canter with you on their back. If the horse does well you can start to teach them to canter from leg/seat cues and eventually not require the verbal cue. 

Best of luck.


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