# Sarcoids: Toothpaste Experiment



## HollyLolly

I have heard that toothpaste is a cure (not scientifically proven) for *sarcoids*. There is not much evidence of this, as not many people have tried and documented it. I have decided that, being as my horse has many sarcoids (all currently benign) and scaley patches, that I would do the experiment, with Indi's help of course.

Originally, people have tried _Crest_ brand toothpaste, however, it's no longer around in England. I have heard that it is the Fluoride in the toothpaste that eliminates (possibly anyway) the sarcoid. I'm a dental nurse, so I have access to toothpaste fairly readily, so I decided to buy the toothpaste with the highest fluoride available, without a prescription. So, I bought Duraphat 2800. I also bought Duraphat Rinse (mouth wash). These products have the highest fluoride content available without a script (to my knowledge), and the toothpaste cost around £5, the rinse around £3.70.

I intend to first spray on the rinse (watered down to make it last longer) to the sarcoids (including the scaley patches), then topically apply the toothpaste to them. Here are the before pictures (they are white where I have been applying an antiseptic over a few days just to keep them clean in the mean time) I've also included a "diagram" (don't laugh at my ridiculous drawings, I'm no artist!) of where they are located.

Diagrams. (*Key: O = Sarcoid; # = Scaley Patch*) and Pictures:
*(By the way, sorry for rambling, I just want to be thorough. If you're interested, please subscribe, I'll try to update often, and any questions, please ask)

Diagram 1 - Indi's left side
Picture 1 - Above her right Eye
Pic 2 - right side neck
Pic 3 - under chin (blurred, sorry)
Diagram 2 - Indi's right side
Pic 4 - Inner right thigh
Pic 5 - Left side neck
Pic 6 - Next to lip, left side


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## HollyLolly

By the way, I am not an expert on sarcoids. I'm just looking for a cure of the pesky growths without resorting to surgery Etc, as being as they're benign, there's no need for surgery. I just don't want them there, as I'm scared they'll spread, also, even though the biggest one, on her thigh, doesn't seem to bother her, it bothers me, because that's a tender place, poor girl :/

Also, I am NOT claiming that this will definitely work. Even if it does work with Indi, I'm not saying it'll work on your horse. I'm just interested to see if it will work.

I applied the rinse and paste for the first time today, I'll keep you posted.


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## Lobelia Overhill

subbing cos I want to know what happens! 

best of luck with it


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## HollyLolly

Thank you! I'm very excited to see how it turns out


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## Alwaysbehind

Interesting experiment. Good job with the drawings and photos. Look forward to your further documentation.


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## HollyLolly

Thank you Alwaysbehind, like I said, I'm no artist, but atleast it gives the general impression of where they are hehe

Todays Sarcoid Update: I went down this evening to give Indi her feed and put on today's applications. The smaller, flatter sarcoids are already getting dry and are flaking off, leaving smoother skin underneath. Especially the one above her right eye (pic 1 on original post) I didn't take my camera (because I didn't respect results this fast!) but plenty flaked off the one above her eye, which was really 'bobbly' (such scientific phrases haha) and after peeling, was much smoother. Not 100% yet, but hey, it's only been on 1 day!


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## Oakley Eastern Miss

Oo thats a good idea - worth a try. Im glad to see you are noticing a difference already, sounds promising. Make sure you keep us updated!


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## HollyLolly

I definitely will! I'm excited about this experiment, and so keen to be rid of these pesky growths, that I won't be giving up! I won't be able to apply it this Saturday, Sunday and Monday as I'm away (getting family to look after them, but just feed an water, but she'll survive without some applications) Just thought I'd let everyone know, I know it's not ideal for the experiment, but I'm hoping 3 days won't hurt too much, and it I don't go away often, so shouldn't happen on may occasions (touch wood).


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## Lobelia Overhill

Sounds god so far!!


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## HollyLolly

Tonight's Update: Looking even better still. The round one, on her lip (pic six in original post) is scabbing off nicely, it's gone crusty and detached around the outside, and is only holding on by a little bit of flesh in the middle (I've made sure to get plenty into the skin in the middle that holding it on, hopefully it won't be too long before it's off!) And there's a flatish sarcoid on her left cheek (no pic sorry, but marked on diagram 1) that is the same, just holding on by a little bit of skin!

The scaley patches are scaling right off, and every application of toothpaste also ex-foliates the debris. I'll try and get some more pics if I can remember, as everything's looking a lot better already!


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## Carleen

Subscribing. Very interesting!


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## kitten_Val

There was a thread I started on the same issue. Could you post pics as you progress, please?


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## Kellynz

I think this is great. one of my quarter horses had one on his back leg (around the fetlock area). We managed to get rid of this several years ago by using a paste that our vet got made up at a pharmacy and some human suppliment tablets. However we also now have 3yr old, that has ended up with one in nearly the same place, however the same treatment has not worked. And over the last 12 months we have spent thousands on treatments. I'm am willing to try just about anything, and I certainly perked up on seeing your experiment. Good luck, I will certainly be subscribing.

Thanks for giving some hope


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## HollyLolly

Hello there, I'm back from my holiday, and the sarcoids continued getting smaller/dryer while I was away, which is such a relief!
Today's Update: The round one on her lip is getting really dry and flakey. The flat ones she has on her neck and shoulders and also the scaley patches are getting really dry, and a lot is flaking right off at the touch (well, a slight rub, but nothing to cause discomfort, just like how you'd rub your face when exfoliating it, or something like that) The small 2 on her right hind thigh are very small and scabby now, I think they're nearly ready to drop IMO. And finally, the one right in the centre of her belly, well, a good half flaked off today, and I think the other half is pretty ready for it too. I promise I will try to remember to take my camera!! I'm such a sift-head!!

By the way, I just want to say thank you to everyone for your interest. I know it's not as exciting to everyone as it is to me (but I'm just ecstatic that it's working!!) and sorry I ramble so much, but again, a big Thank You for all your interest and comments, they're much appreciated!


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## Rowdy Girl

WOW !!... this IS interesting...

My mare has a sarcoid and in the South West, we use what is called " Indian Mud " and pretty much eat's away the growth right down to the core... but, it is pretty hard to get a hold of.... I'm treating my mare now. I'm really into this post, as the " Indian Mud" is pretty expensive stuff, althought, they do not grow back in the same place... who would have thunk " tooth paste" is another cure ??? ... I KNOW freezing them off will do the trick, but they do come back in the same place... Glad for this Thread !
Best of Luck !!


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## HollyLolly

Thank you! Yeah, I wrote down a whole list of treatments (including "just leave them alone" although I wasn't 100% with that Idea) But many I'd gotten from sites in the USA, and when I looked over here, they either didn't have them, or were ridicules amounts of money! So, when toothpaste caught my eye I thought "What luck! I have access to lots of different toothpaste!" and being as apparently it's the Fluoride in the toothpaste that makes the sarcoid wither, I thought I'd get the one with the highest Fluoride content in it (that I could buy over the counter anyway). And so far, the effects are very good, and already visible!


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## outnabout

How incredibly interesting! My mare has a few sarcoids. Maybe I will consult my dentist tomorrow for a high-fluoride toothpaste! Nothing to lose in trying. Thanks for sharing this experiment with us!


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## JessieleeZ

i love home remedies ideas  ive learned that tea tree oil is a really great cure most ( at least on my dogs lol )


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## Oakley Eastern Miss

Great news, you might have just come across a really cheap alternative. It will be interesting to see how long they stay away for and if it works for any other horse.

Fingers crossed! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gypsy Vanner

I want to see what happens. Subbed!


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## Lobelia Overhill

Sounds like it's actually working!


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## HollyLolly

Forgot my camera AGAIN, gah!
Today's update: The one on her left cheek is nearly completely off, leaving completely smooth, all be it hairless and dark, skin underneath. The one on her belly is nearly off too, which is so annoying, because it's really niggly, and it's making me want to pick it off... but I don't want to hurt her for my own OCDness lol. And, the small one on her right thigh is getting ready too. It's bothering me (not really, but a bit) that they're sooooo close to coming off, but they're clinging on for dear sarcoidy life! It's so infuriating! Ooh, also, the flatter ones are getting really dry and flakey and some comes off during applications!

I'm really glad it's working, I'd just like the ones that are nearly off, to just b*ggar off so that I can concentrate on the rest haha. Sorry for rambling again, and thanks for everyone's comments


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## Kellynz

Okay you have inspired me!!!! I've got some toothpaste and was checking the flouride content. Alot of toothpastes over here dont state the amount or % per tube. So I got one that is 22% flouride. I dont know if this is good or not.....but I put it on Jack for the first time today. My only concern is it's winter here in New Zealand and very muddy and the ugly sarcoid is by his back fetlock. So I'm crossing my fingers it will still work and not come off. Your having such great results with Indi! I've check everyday for your updates.:lol:


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## 2horses

I used Crest toothpaste last year, and it did work. Unfortunately, the sarcoids came back this year. Now I'm using Exterra from the vet. It does seem to work quicker, but the healing process looks nastier than it did with Crest.


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## HollyLolly

kellynz, I'm not sure how much 22% is in toothpaste, but I do know that in duraphat (made by colgate by the way) there are 2800 parts per million. To be honest, I don't really know much about the content of fluoride in toothpaste (in ratio to the rest of the ingredients) however, I just bought the one that had the highest amount I could, so the more parts per million (which will be referred to as PPM on the tube) the better. (The is a stronger version of duraphat, with 5000ppm, but you can only get that with a script... sooo, unless you have uber sensitive teeth, you can't really access it :-| )

Anyhoo, after yet another ramble of mine, here is today's update:
The one on her left cheek is nearly off, and the bit that's hanging off is just like dry, dead skin now, lost all resemblance to a sarc. 
The one right on her belly, well, most of that is gone now, leaving just a small piece, like a tic-tac cute lengthways, left.
And, I'm very please about this - the smallish one on her left hind thigh, the majority came off when I exfoliated it, and what's left is the size of a lentil. Very pleased with this, as it came off in the cotton wool I was using, so I saw the result of the toothpaste in front of my eyes.
The scaley patches on her neck and shoulders are practically gone now, just a few bald patches, with a teeny bit of dry skin.

I did take the camera down... but it was dark when I went down (I'm a bad mum to Indi, doesn't get her tea till bedtime sometimes... bless her *slaps wrist* ) So the pics are rubbish - no point uploading, but I've left the camera down there (so I don't forget it again) and will go up earlier tomoz! Again, sorry guys!


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## csimkunas6

Subbing.....what a neat idea!!! Sounds like its working fantastically and fast!!! Curious to how it all goes


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## HollyLolly

*Today's update (with pics!):*

Here are some pics from today (and also last night)

Sarcoid off her belly (from last night)








Her left cheek last night, the sarcoid hanging off

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Her belly were the sarcoid came off








The scaley patches on her chin

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Her left cheek today, the sarcoid has now come completely off! Normal skin left underneath!








A sarcoid roughly behind her left jaw (no pic of it previously, but it was on the diagram) It, like the rest, appears to be a lot smaller though








Her left lip (much smaller and dryer than before)








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Her inner left hind thigh, still big, but I think it has improved a bit (this one I knew would be a challenge...)


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## lovemarcy

wow! how interesting! you can really tell a difference! subscribing to see what happens with that big one on her thigh.


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## HollyLolly

*More pics from today:*

Her left-side neck








Her right-side neck








Next to her right eye








Her inner right hind thigh, where a sarcoid has come off (I've been keeping it clean with purple spray) So now, there's only one small sarcoid left on that thigh.








And that's it for pics of her Sarcoids for tonight. By the way, the one of her lip, on the above post, it looks rubbish, but that's because there's a load of toothpaste round it, so you can't see what is sarcoid, and what is dried toothpaste, so, sorry about that guys :/ Anyway, I hope you can see the improvement like I can


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## HollyLolly

Actually, I've just had a little compare with the old and new pics, I didn't realise how much they'd improved. Obviously, I knew it was working, with the smaller ones dropping off, but the large one on her left thigh, although big, is much smoother than before. The one above her right eye, and on her right side neck are also much smoother. I'm so pleased it's working!

Thank you all for your support!


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## Ladytrails

Too amazing! Good luck with this, I'll be watching and hoping for success with all of these!


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## Oakley Eastern Miss

Wow, thats impressive! Keep the photos coming


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## natisha

Very interesting thread. I'm wondering if a flouride rinse sprayed on before the toothpaste would help things along?


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## HollyLolly

Yes Natisha, that's what I have been doing 
Today's Update: the one on her lip has come off (although, it hasn't left perfect skin underneath - it's raised still, as if only past of the sarcoid has come off - so I'm expecting it to return, but still trying to reduce it / keep it at bay with the fluoride applications)

The one on her r side neck is flaking and peeling a bit, which I'm pleased about, because that one's been rather stubborn.

The progress with the rest is still progressing too - scaley patches reducing, big sarcoids getting smoother (and reducing slightly in size), and smaller sarcoids getting flakey and also reducing in size quite a bit. Still very pleased with this treatment, and so far, I think it's fairly safe to say that it's working (touch wood! *touches head and windowsill*)


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## BoxT

Subscribing to see how things go. Good Luck.


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## HollyLolly

Today's Update: not too much to report today, but the place where the sarcoid was on her cheek, has started regrowing hair, which is pleasing  The scaley patches on her r side neck & shoulder are nearly gone, and are also regrowing hair.


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## HollyLolly

Hello everyone, today's update is: not much has changed really. It seems the effects have plateaued somewhat. They're all still showing better results daily, but none have fallen off since or have made any dramatic changes unfortunately. Nonetheless, still definitely having results, so, I'm pleased enough so far.


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## equiniphile

Very interesting, I'll check back every so often to see how it's going.


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## reiningfan

I find this very interesting. I love seeing experiments done. 
Might just have to try this on my son's mare that has developed a sarcoid.


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## HollyLolly

I definitely recommend it! Especially with one, it'll be a lot more manageable, and less likely to spread, I hope it works for you and your son's mare, as well as it has with me and Indi, reiningfan 


Today's Update: Still a bit samey, but still, they're all improving daily, just nothing dramatic at the moment.


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## HollyLolly

Today's Update (Much better than the last few days btw!):
I gave her sarcoids a good clean up (just water and cotton wool) today, just to get rid of the excess dead skin, toothpaste and general cr*p in there. I usually do it every few days, and to be honest, I haven't done it as much this week, which is maybe why the results plateaued. Well, tonight, after cleaning, a load of dry, dead skin came off them. The one that was on her belly, there's nearly flat skin there, same with the one on her right thy.

Good news about the HUGE one on her thy - it's getting much smaller, I'd say it's lost about 1/5 of its original size, and is getting really dry. The edges of it has detached from the thy (like it started with the smaller ones before they came off) and it feels like it won't be too long. With it being big, I'd say maybe a couple of weeks. I don't want to force it, but it feels like if she caught it, it'd fall off right now, because it's getting dry and is detaching slowly. I'm really impressed to be honest. 

The flat one on her R side neck is getting smaller in size, and getting dry, the same with the one beside her R side eye, which is really dry now, and is no longer a flat sarcoid on examination. It's become just a dry, scaley patch, like the ones on her chin and neck and shoulder (although the ones on her neck and shoulders have pretty much gone -touch wood-)

In all, I'm much happier with tonight's results, and it has taught me that I should probably clean and upkeep them more than I have done this week.


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## LittleRedHorse

I'm loving this thread. My gelding has a very large sarcoid on his neck. His vet told us that it would be a waste of money to have it removed (cosmetic purposes only) and actually suggested Crest to help it go down in size a bit and not look so ugly.


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## HollyLolly

Yes, I'd definitely recommend the toothpaste theory! I've been seeing daily improvements with Indi's!

I will try and get some pics up, as the ones on her L side cheek, behind her L jaw, and on her L side neck, have almost 100% gone, and on her cheek and behind her jaw, new hair is growing. They're all looking fab. 

The big horrid one on her L thigh is getting sooo much better, it's reducing in side, and is getting very dry.

The scaley patches on her chin are exfoliating nicely, and the scaley patches on her R shoulder neck and shoulder are gone and are regrowing hair too. 

They're all reducing in size, I'm very pleased, and will take some pics soon, and thank you, everyone, for your support


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## LittleRedHorse

About how often are you putting it on? And how thick each time?


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## HollyLolly

I apply it once daily (in the evening), after spraying them with the Duraphat Rinse (which I water down a bit, just to make it last) The rinse ensures that the whole sarcoid gets a complete covering of fluoride (it soaks in well, and gets the hard to reach parts - what with them being funny shapes often, and also in funny areas more often than not haha), then I apply the toothpaste. How much I put on varies per sarcoid. As long as you cover the whole sarcoid, rub it in well, and make sure there's still plenty left sitting on the sarcoid, it should be fine. The excess can soak in during the day. 

I clean it off every 2-3 days, to allow proper exfoliation of the dying sarc, and getting rid of old toothpaste, otherwise the new can't soak in as well (well, that's what I figure anyway... We get better results when I keep them cleaner... most of this is done by "figuring", I've tried to do it as scientifically as I can, but I'm not great at that, so a lot of it is guess work, trial and error, and just going with what you feel is right, sorry I can't be of more help. I'd say roughly, once the toothpaste is rubbed in, there's a 1.5mm thickness of toothpaste left on the surface, but that's a guess. I just say, go with what you feel, and as long as the whole things covered - evenly-ish - you should be fine)

Evenly-ish..? I apologise for such baffeling, scientific terms... Haha


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## HollyLolly

Today's Update: The scaley patches on her chin are exfoliating very well. The round flat sarcoid on the R side of her neck is getting much smaller (as are all of them to be honest) and is flaking a bit.

I will get some more pics soon, I promise!


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## Alwaysbehind

You should take photos and post before and after photos next to each other so we can all see the change.


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## HollyLolly

That's a good Idea A.B. I will do that


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## HollyLolly

I can't get pics up tonight guys, as my net's acting up, really badly, and won't stay connected long enough for me to post them :-| sorry


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## Alwaysbehind

Looking forward to photos.


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## csimkunas6

Alwaysbehind said:


> Looking forward to photos.


Same here!!!


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## Ashley at Rivermont

Interesting! I've never heard of this before. I have always used Xterra (sp?) but will keep this in mind too! Keep us posted!


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## HollyLolly

It's _Definitely_ worth a try, as I can vouch that Indi's are clearing nicely 
Just a note to point out, I heard today that *Echinacea* is good for our immune system. I thought to myself hmm, Indi could do with an immune boost, to help clear them off (the better their immune system, the easier they'll go, and less chance of return) So I thought to myself "I wonder if horses can have it?" So, I did a little research and, it states that echinacea is _very_ good for horses, especially for the healing of skin lesions, which is fantastic! I've ordered some, and hopefully they'll help ward them off. I know this could change the results of my experiment, however, I have shown that it can work, as several of her sarcoids have cleared just with the fluoride applications. But that big one on her thigh is very stubborn, and although has got a lot better, I just want to boost the curing process. It may or may not work, but as always, I'll keep you updated, and will continue with the rinse and toothpaste, but I will also be adding a little echinacea to her feed (when it is delivered)


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## HollyLolly

*Comparison: Before treatment, and now*

Above Indi's R eye, before any treatment:







Indi's R eye, taken a few days ago:







Indi's L thigh, before:







Her L thigh, a few days ago (not a great pic, sorry guys)







Indi's L side neck before:







Her L side neck a few days ago:







Her R side neck, before:







Her R side neck, a few days ago:








Sorry I couldn't post these sooner everyone


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## HollyLolly

*More photo's: Before treatment, and currently*

Behind Indi's L jaw, before treatment:







Behind her L side Jaw, taken a few days ago:







Her L cheek, before:







Her L cheek, the other day:







Her L lip, before:







Her L lip, the other day:








Again, sorry I didn't get these up sooner. Also, a note, last night the other sarcoid on her R thigh came off, that's both gone from there now! Also, I haven't started her on the echinacea yet (it hasn't arrived yet, obviously because it's sunday hehe) but I will let you know when I do start her on it.


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## HollyLolly

I'm sorry I've not been on for a long time, my computer is broken, so I'm borrowing this one, so sorry I haven't been reporting. Her sarcoids are all really good at the moment,and I'll get some more pics up when I get my pc back. I have also started her on echinacea, but I haven't seen much difference compared to her general progress with them, but we'll see


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## HollyLolly

I finally have my pc back, and I'd just like to say I'm extremely sorry for not posting for such a long time.
I will get some pics up ASAP, and her sarcoids are looking AMAZING!! Literally, fantastic!

Again, sorry for not posting in so long, I will try to make it up to you by getting pics up very soon.


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## Greve

Very interesting.
How have you been cleaning the sarcoid, during the project ?


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## HollyLolly

Sorry for the late reply Greve, I haven't quite gotten back into the habit of posting regularly since my PC broke. I clean them with just normal water on a towel or cotton wool depending on how much toothpaste they have on them. And just rub it off gently, I have to be pretty gentle now, as the big one on her thigh is very loose, and I don't want to rip it off by accident (it's not ready yet, and it'll be sore if I pull it off, it won't be too long now though, it's about a 3rd of the size it was originally, I'm very pleased!)


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## equiniphile

Nice work!


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## Trinity3205

Bumping this up to see if there are any new pictures?


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## Kayty

I have seen this work on 2 broodmares, with ENORMOUS sarcoids on their lower legs. They looked like they were growing an extra hoof before treatment.
The toothpaste used was a particular brand, that contained an active ingredient that most other toothpastes don't contain. I'll have to ask my friend what it was called, as she had it imported from the US. 
It did take a long time, but both sarcoids have reduced to being only a small bump and scar. 
Our vet was so impressed, they they are considering investigating the 'active' ingredient, and creating a paste to market specifically for sarcoids.


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## kitten_Val

Wow, Kayty! I'd be curious to hear the name of the paste.

BTW, I believe it's fluoride that is used. I remember checking all different ones in my local supermarket, and the highest was in Colgate.


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## Kayty

KV, I don't think fluoride is the ingredient, we've got it in all our toothpastes here but didn't have this particular ingredient that was required for the sarcoids so needed to get boxes of it shipped from the US.
I'll speak to the lady soon and let you know what the brand is.


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## kitten_Val

Interesting! I said fluoride, because I think that's what lady who started this thread said. I may have to re-read the thread though (as it's been a while).


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## Kayty

I was slack and didn't read much of it either, just saw sarcoids and toothpaste!


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## Christine382

This discussion was one of many that led me to try toothpaste on sarcoids. My horse was diagnosed by a vet, had biopsy taken and confirmed sarcoid. I am the sort of person that will do anything for my horses and will go without food and heating to pay a necessary vets bill. I was quoted around £400 pounds (UK) for Liverpool cream treatment which was affordable but since the sarcoids were fairly small (biggest one about the size of a thumb-nail) and my vet had said that one option was to leave them be, I decided to experiment. I am a scientist by background and I'm generally sceptical about 'miracle cures' but there were so many people with claims that toothpaste works that I thought there might be something worth investigating.
I tried Colgate Duraphat 5000 toothpaste - available online or from some dentists which was the highest fluoride content i could find. I applied this once a day, always giving the area a wash with a soft brush to remove the gunge before hand. Within 4 weeks the smaller sarcoids had gone hard and flaked off like scabs, and within 6 week later the biggest one just fell off leaving healthy-looking pink skin behind. 
While being really pleased that I seem to have a success, I am still quite unsure as to the effectiveness of this treatment. Part of me worries that I have experimented with clinically unproven treatment on my beloved horse. I don't know if the sarcoids will come back - maybe bigger than before. Will the same treatment work again? - I just don't know.
I would like to see a proper clinical trial on sarcoid treatment, comparing the vet's recommended treatment compared to toothpaste, other 'herbal' cures, and doing nothing. How long does each take to work? Does the treatment cause the horse discomfort or pain/swelling? What are the long-term outcomes? Does fluoride content matter? This could be a nice project for a student vet - if you could get 500-1000 horses involved in a trial the results could be quite interesting - maybe there could be some funding from a toothpaste manufacturer. 
Anyway, enough of my ramblings, I wish you success with whatever sarcoid treatment you decide to use.


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## Kayty

The horses that I saw it used on, it was the vet that recommended this particular toothpaste.
It has been a couple of years and they have not returned. 
I wouldn't be worrying about your horse turning green and growing an extra eye - we put toothpaste in our mouth and surely ingest some each time we brush our teeth. Using it externally on a horse is really very mild!!


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## Ninamebo

I'm interested to know the brand of toothpaste as well. 

As for an actual treatment, I completely believe in xxterra (sp?). It is designed for a sarcoid type situation and within a couple of days application the sarcoid was shriveling up and peeling off. Wonderful results. It was $50 for a container that I am confident will last us a few more sarcoidsworht worth in the future (should we ever get to that point of having one again).


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## KigerQueen

I know this is old but any updates? i find this absolutely fascinating and would love to see if the sarcoids came back or not.


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## Ryle

Everyone just needs to be aware that sarcoids are notorious for being difficult to treat because they don't all respond to the same treatment and because each treatment you try decreases the likelihood that future treatments will work. Sarcoids also can become very aggressive once you start messing with them.


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