# My mare has a udder overnight? HELP



## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

I've only owned her a month I did not breed her myself. She is on the big side and I was checking her over today and she has a full udder.
I dont know what to do my vet doesn't come out on weekends. How do I find a emergency horse vet?
I also found bloody mucus on her vagina a few days ago but I just thought she was in heat now I'm worried she's getting ready to foal.
I'm a new horse owner I have no idea what to do someone please help!
What do I need to get ready in case she starts foaling and I cant get a vet!
I'm going to call my uncle whos had horses his whole life and see if he can come help me if I need it and cant get a vet.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Yes, call your uncle.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Uncle, or anyone who has some experience, this should be classed as a possible emergency so you need help NOW.


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

My uncle is out of town at a horse show apparently I can only get ahold of his wife. He doesn't have a cellphone. Now I have no idea what to do.

I dont know anyone else who knows about horses!


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

do you have a safe large place for her to foal? can you get straw for bedding? Do not use shavings. Nothing is better than shavings. Post pics of her. Side shot, rear shot,want to see if she is loosening up, pics of udders. You may have a few days if she is just starting to bag up but they can surprise you


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

I have a four sided shelter I have hay I can use as bedding. I found a mobile vet I can get here I'm going to call her and get her out here.
I only have a cellphone to take pictures with but I'll go out there in a bit and take pictures.


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

I'm also worried about the fact that she did not get the nutrition she should have as a pregnant horse for her pregnancy if she's having a baby. The previous owners were feeding her to get her to lose weight this would explain why she hasn't but I'm worried this baby is going to be small or have some sort of issues. She was also ridden her whole pregnancy and quite hard by the man who owned her before me.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Talon said:


> I'm also worried about the fact that she did not get the nutrition she should have as a pregnant horse for her pregnancy if she's having a baby. The previous owners were feeding her to get her to lose weight this would explain why she hasn't but I'm worried this baby is going to be small or have some sort of issues. She was also ridden her whole pregnancy and quite hard by the man who owned her before me.


 Many underfed rescues deliver healthy foals. It is what it is. The mares body is pretty good at taking care of her babies.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Talon said:


> I have a four sided shelter I have hay I can use as bedding. I found a mobile vet I can get here I'm going to call her and get her out here.
> I only have a cellphone to take pictures with but I'll go out there in a bit and take pictures.


I would go buy straw if you can. It is much cleaner than hay. You can usually get it at a landscaping store. If your pasture is safe I would let her come and go in and out of shelter as she chooses. I would also seperate her from other horses. They dont like to give birth with other horses around if possible. Just a fence seperating them so they dont feel threatened when they lay down when the time comes. These are 2 of my favorite photos. She waited until the other horses were turned out and safe to give birth.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Start by relaxing. A full-looking udder does not necessarily mean a mare is ready to foal. Sometimes it's just hormones. Neither you nor previous owners knew of any pregnancy. There may not BE one. Getting a vet check would have been smart to do much sooner. And yes, I DO have some experience here, having been a breeder since 1981. IF IF the mare should foal, or be vet-checked in foal, just feed her correctly for a nursing mare. The foal is or will be fine. Takes some pretty serious starvation to harm it. the mares body gives up a lot to grow the foal.


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

I dont know anyone who sells straw around here. I could get some pinestraw?
She isn't housed with other horses she has two goats as companions and they've been keeping distance I think she's telling them to leave her alone. 
She has the choice to go out in the pasture if she'd like, it's really cold here today if she foals should I help her get the foal dry?

I hope she isn't pregnant theres enough horses in the world. The previous owner had a stud on site but he was kept in a different pasture.
Her udder ever feels full I went to check her backside and she winked at me so maybe just a very hormonal heat if she's this hormonal in heat I'm going to have to look for something to help her out.


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## EponaLynn (Jul 16, 2013)

For straw, phone feed stores, farm supply and even possibly a hardware store if you're rural (ours has it).

Are her nipples pointed down or out to the side? I'm no expert but usually before they foal, the nipples go from down to pointed out so the foal can get them easily.

Also, even is she is preggers, she might have a full bag for a while before the baby is born and it can go up and down - I'm followed many of the foaling threads.

Is the vet coming today? You do need one on call in case there are any complications during birth, but mostly all goes smoothly.

Search foal kit or birth kit on this forum and I think you'll see what you need. Also read the foaling threads under the breeding forum. Others have posted all kinds of stuff that is helpful.

PS watch some start to finish videos on births on Youtube so you get the idea of what will happen and how long it will take etc.

Above all, stay calm.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

How big an udder does she have? Can you get pics?

Is it like this...










that was Ace a month before she foaled..

or like this?










That was the day before she foaled


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> How big an udder does she have? Can you get pics?
> 
> Is it like this...
> 
> ...


 did you get on a creeper and roll under that horse to get such accurate pictures? :lol:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

churumbeque said:


> did you get on a creeper and roll under that horse to get such accurate pictures? :lol:



LOL, seeing as she was expecting for what seemed like a full elephant length gestation I got very good at holding my phone underneath in the right place


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

There is the possibility that blood sugar issues has caused the mare to bag up a bit. I know my little mare had a larger than normal udder just before I got her diet under control. Even leaked a little fluid that looked like skim milk. 
This horse does have known weight problem. I'd still be getting a vet out.

Physiology of PPID

Talon, let us know what's happening and have your camera fully charged just in case!


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## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

Talon: 
IF your made is pregnant, and IF she is far enough along in the 11 month 
pregnancy, you should be able to see/feel the foal moving and kicking by checking her flank area in front of her hip and about half way down( past the last rib). Watch for any movement, rest your hand there and see if you feel any movement. You will know it when you see/feel it, as the area is all muscle, no skeletal bone there to confuse you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

HombresArablegacy said:


> Talon:
> IF your made is pregnant, and IF she is far enough along in the 11 month
> pregnancy, you should be able to see/feel the foal moving and kicking by checking her flank area in front of her hip and about half way down( past the last rib). Watch for any movement, rest your hand there and see if you feel any movement. You will know it when you see/feel it, as the area is all muscle, no skeletal bone there to confuse you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is where movement can occur from guts/digestion and can look like baby movement but isn't. Movement under the belly (right in front of the udder) is baby movement or movement on the top of the butt right at the tailhead is also baby movement (knocking on the exit door and looks alien in nature). Not all foals are active enough to see moving. Best bet it to get the mare palpated by a vet.


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> How big an udder does she have? Can you get pics?
> 
> Is it like this...
> 
> ...



She's smaller than the top one here.
I couldn't get in touch with a vet that did weekend calls but I finally got someone out to look at her who knows horses better than me. They think she's pregnant but they said if she is she has a few months to go.
I didn't know mares udders got that big they're almost like a cows.
We tried to palpate Sally's tummy to get movement from the foal but we didn't feel anything.

She shouldn't be foaling overnight thankfully. 
We got some straw for bedding just in case and the women who came to look at her also said she's interested in the foal if I cant keep it. So theres that to.
I talked to the previous owners and they dont think she got pregnant at their place because she was never with their stud who is a paint. But they also only owned her for 6 months.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Subbing.


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## Ladybug2001 (Mar 15, 2011)

Could you post pictures of the mare?


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay I've called and talked to my vet, he doesn't think she's close if she is and isn't convinced she is pregnant. I have her a appointment for next tuesday as it's the closest he had for a large animal. She's going to get a official pregnancy check along with everything else she might need from him. I'll update this then with the results and if she is pregnant I'll make a foaling topic for her and her baby.

I'll go get some pictures sorry I've been really busy. I'll update this in a second!


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay pictures time I got one of her udder too.
These are not the best quality and I'm sorry about that only have a cellphone for pictures.


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## Ladybug2001 (Mar 15, 2011)

Hmm. Could be. When is the last time you dewormed her?


You're vet is right, if she is pregnant she isn't close. Glad you have it lined out to be settled next Tuesday.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Just looks like a chubby mare to me. She's fat all over, not just the belly, and the udder just looks like a mare having a hormone change, as in coming in to heat.


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

Yes I wormed her the week before last with ivermectin.

Hopefully not, I haven't been riding her because I was told not to until I knew she wasn't pregnant by the women I had look at her. But Sally is really bored she doesn't enjoy being a pasture puff and wants me to take her out.
Do you guys think I can ride her? She really acts like she needs it. Before this I was on a mission of getting her in shape but it's been on hold.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with riding a pregnant mare as long as the mare is comfortable. They gives signs when they no longer want to be ridden and you will know they are done. Some mares are comfortable riding out until they are 6 months along and others will ride out comfortably to the day they foal. A mare that is regularly exercised will be in better physical condition when it comes time to push a foal out.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

My mare is 216 days along and I still ride her regularly so if your mare is ok with you riding her you should be fine. My mare hasnt told me she doesnt want to be ridden and I will continue riding until she does (even if it is only walking bareback)


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Awwwh, She's cute! I have such a soft spot for appys.

No reason you can't ride her. Just don't go nuts until you know what's going on. She will be better off for the muscle tone later if she is pregnant.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

She is all sorts of cute&#55357;&#56835;

I wonder if she has foaled before, looks like it from her udders. I agree with everyone else, if she is pregnant she has a ways to go, so getting out and getting some exercise will be good for her, just don't go crazy.

Looking forward to hearing what the vet says, glad you are getting her checked out, means that you can either stop worrying, or get everything organized, win win.


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

Thank you everyone! She is the absolute sweetest thing so she's a complete package. Everyone who meets her wants to steal her!

She has had one baby before that I know of but that was a year or so ago from what I was told. She's 11 and I dont know her full history so she could have had more.

I'm glad to hear I can ride her because she has so much energy and she just follows me around in the pasture begging me to do something with her. Poor thing has been bored because I haven't been riding her.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

Riding is actually good for pregnant mares, within reason. It keeps the muscles in good tone which makes the birth easier, just like with humans. *tic*:smile:


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It's good to have the vet check her. Even if she's not pregnant a sudden udder is worth a vet call imo.


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

She has a appointment with the vet.


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## livelyblueyes (Apr 5, 2014)

I got this mare in on Christmas Eve. We had her vet checked at the time but not palpated. 20? years old at least and skin and bones when I got her. 2 months later we found out she was prego when the vet was checking for an impaction. She foaled April 24th. The skinny pic is from December,the fat pic is April 4th and the last is April 25th when she foaled. There were no stud horses on the place I got her from. No one has a clue who she was bred. I will say this if there is a stud on the place where she was before I would not rule out the possibility of pregnancy. I have known mares and studs to hop a fence in to the other and hop right back to their own when done. It all depends on the fencing/housing used. The biggest problem with nutrition being low is afterwards should you have a live foal.. keeping/getting weight back on your mare. In your case your mare has a nice weight. Pregnancy does not = rolling in fat. The fat can cause just as many problems as underweight.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Talon said:


> She has a appointment with the vet.


I know  Just saying even if she's not pregnant it's good that the vet will have seen her and can give an explanation on the udder.


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

Okay time for a update, Vet came out and sedated her so he could get way up in her and feel her. He says he felt her uterus and both of her ovaries and she is not pregnant. He also said she's in good overall heath that all of her glands are normal sized, her heart and lungs sound great, and that the milk she was dripping just means she had a very hormonal heat. So I guess now all that needs to happen is getting her in shape. She also got all her shots. 

I am very happy I dont have to worry about a baby, but the women who thought she was pregnant is disappointed. But I'm going to try and see if I can help her find a rescue baby or something.


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

awww, toldya. :smile:


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I want to shake you hand for getting her back to health!!!! **hugs** Older horses are almost impossible to put weight on, but she really looks terrific. Lucky mare!


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## livelyblueyes (Apr 5, 2014)

Wish I could say my old girl kept her weight on but sadly she has dropped heaps recently.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

livelyblueyes said:


> Wish I could say my old girl kept her weight on but sadly she has dropped heaps recently.


I have owned several hard keepers.  At the time I fed 3-5 lbs/day of Purina Equine Senior. Considering the advances in equine nutrition even in the last 5 years, you may want to talk to the people at Smart Pak. I get their flyer/catalogs and the small amounts that you can add to put weight on a horse seem to make more sense than substituting even a lot of pellets and take away from their basic hay diet. Plus powders mixed with a ration doesn't put any wear and tear on their teeth.
EVEN THOUGH I feed a pelleted grain mix--not much, but the routine for my current 3 horses who are easy keepers--I have kept 5 horses into their 20's and one into his 30's. After a horse reaches 30yo the teeth they have no longer grow. They just wear down and wear out/fall out.
When Custer was on the Black Hills campaign (1874) he took whole corn for grain. People didn't keep or expect their horses to live even into their 20's, so they didn't care about wearing out their teeth. Today, they are pleasure animals and we enjoy being able to enjoy them for many more years, hence the greater interest in their dental health.
Btw, I have heard that some show horses get their teeth checked and floated every 6 months, and some people believe that this extends their lives.
Also consider buying alfalfa pellets or cubes (soak the cubes, it only takes 5-10 minutes) to add more calories. The more expensive alternative is Standee processed hay, but if you're like me your budget is kinda maxed out. The alfalfa pellets or cubes is much cheaper. I always keep about 100 pounds of alfalfa cubes every winter for extra calories, and I store them in my grain room in the same metal trash cans that I store other feed.
Just some food for thought. I'VE BEEN THERE, looking at an elderly horse who is getting more than enough hay thrown at him, and still needs more weight. **hugs**


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## livelyblueyes (Apr 5, 2014)

Hrmm that has me wondering exactly how old my girl is. When the vet checked he said at least twenty. She is missing most of her molars. Most were missing when I got her but she lost one more since then. She had her teeth done in February and we are getting ready to have them done again. Currently all her feed is made into gruel. She gets Nutrena mare &foal,Alfalfa pellets and beet pulp. I cannot give her the cubes or regular alfalfa hay.She will colic every time. Regardless of how long it has been soaked. Fed 3 times a day. We were doing 4 times but truth of the matter is I cannot always do 4 times a day so it is best for me to keep it at 3. (doctor appointments and such). We had her on a weight supplement as well but it was a problem. Our biggest prob with her weight now is she gets to a certain point and is holding weight and then boom! Once her ribs start to pad out decent her back end explodes with diarrhea.This was taken this week. This is the point we get her to when the diarrhea will hit. Going to start taking her on some uphill walks with me to see if that helps her topline a bit. WOrking on egtting the foal separated from her as well. I know that will help heaps.He is almost as big as her.


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## livelyblueyes (Apr 5, 2014)

I didn't breed her myself she just came that way. I am working up a separate pen for the colt but as they are my only two I do not have company for them when I do separate.


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## Talon (Oct 22, 2014)

Hey is baby weaned? You can look for someone else with a mare and foal who needs a weaning buddy and keep your mares together and put the foals together so they have company while weaning is going on.

Have you had a fecal done on her or wormed her lately? That could cause her to have liquid stool.


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## livelyblueyes (Apr 5, 2014)

The baby is not weaned. I do not really know many others in this area. We literally just moved to where we are now hence the difference in the backgrounds on those pics. Currently trying to hurry up and get this second pen done. Between blowing out my ankle and my husband messing up his shoulder we are at a stand still for a bit on it. LoL he can stand just fine but cannot use a hammer .. I can use the hammer but can't stand. When I attempt to do it sitting ..well lets just say I am clumsy and the hammer landed directly on the blown out ankle. SO after much cursing and swearing lol I went inside. My boys are going to try and give a hand this weekend. As for worms we have done fecals and it shouldn't be causing what we are seeing. Planning to worm for encysteds on the first. By then the second pen should be finished and we can rotate them over there. While we get the third pen together. That way I can let the chickens roam the original pen.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

livelyblueyes said:


> Hrmm that has me wondering exactly how old my girl is. When the vet checked he said at least twenty. She is missing most of her molars. Most were missing when I got her but she lost one more since then. She had her teeth done in February and we are getting ready to have them done again. Currently all her feed is made into gruel. She gets Nutrena mare &foal,Alfalfa pellets and beet pulp. I cannot give her the cubes or regular alfalfa hay.She will colic every time. Regardless of how long it has been soaked. Fed 3 times a day. We were doing 4 times but truth of the matter is I cannot always do 4 times a day so it is best for me to keep it at 3. (doctor appointments and such). We had her on a weight supplement as well but it was a problem. Our biggest prob with her weight now is she gets to a certain point and is holding weight and then boom! Once her ribs start to pad out decent her back end explodes with diarrhea.This was taken this week. This is the point we get her to when the diarrhea will hit. Going to start taking her on some uphill walks with me to see if that helps her topline a bit. WOrking on egtting the foal separated from her as well. I know that will help heaps.He is almost as big as her.


Hmmm... she honestly doesn't look that thin in the photo. Is it possible she has some old injury or disease that makes her look like that. It's awkward to describe "aside from the protruding bones in her spine/hips her weight looks good"... does anyone else see what I see?

What does the vet say?


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## jcarpen5 (Oct 4, 2014)

Loss of top line is what you're looking for
well, I have a 23 yr old appy gelding that is a neurotic drama queen and he worries off any weight he gains. 

I feed him Remission it's for foundered horses. But I also give it to my fat and sassy mare. I keep the old man on the loading dose which has a nice dose of magnesium, biotin, omega fatty acids and it has digestive enzymes that help with the hind gut. I also feed him a quarter cup of life data labs Barn Bag pasture/hay balancer 2x daily (it gives all the stuff of a complete feed but you give the calories seperate ) 3.5 cups of regular oats, 1.5 cups of Max-E-Glo, 3 cups of nutrena safe choice senior feed, 2.5 cups of alfalfa pellets and he gets 1/3 to half cup of Coyosoya every feeding plus 8-10 pounds of hay each feeding. He was so thin this spring coming out of winter I thought I was going to lose him. I had him on SmartPak senior pituitary and I am switching to the SmartPak senior smartflex so I can't say how it works yet. I can't say if the pituitary stuff did any difference, but it didn't do any harm either  my vet recommended just the safe choice senior, but he is VERY picky and gets bored with his food. And since I was trying to put weight on him, he was getting really hot if he ate it all. Thats when I got the barn bag and went to oats and alfalfa pellets for fiber. I give him a half cup of beet pulp pellets because it is pretty good for a heavy fiber. It is hard for him to chew so I am thinking of soaking it, but I'm worried that he won't eat it then, or completely refuse his feed and it will be wasted. He nibbles at his feed all day til the next feeding and it would just get yucky. He has put on at least 200 pounds. 
Your old lady might need something to aid with digestion. Probiotics, basically Activia for horses try the remission and cocosoya, it's a good start. Also there is cool calories. I've done the research, it's the cheapest of the pure fat supplements, and the bag lasts forever. The remission and Cocosoya are 20 each at tractor supply, and the cool calories is 25-29 there too. My vet said that I don't need to do all I do for him, but he looks pretty good (20 years I've had him, he's always been a slim svelte guy) his labs come back perfect so it's working for us. Here's a recent pic of him, he has a decent topline now for a sway back old man. It's filled, in well. 

I will have to post pic later today, phone doesn't wt to post pic


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Actually what I'm seeing is NOT just a poor topline (which wouldn't surprise or worry me here). It looks like muscle wastage through her hindquarters. I'd love to see some more pics.


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## jcarpen5 (Oct 4, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Actually what I'm seeing is NOT just a poor topline (which wouldn't surprise or worry me here). It looks like muscle wastage through her hindquarters. I'd love to see some more pics.


Now that I found my glasses, I see what you mean. I am on my phone, it has a big screen, but not big enough that I was able to tell if that was angle or actually her booty. Oops...it does appear she has wasting. Is there a possibility the mare has pssm? It's common with poco beuno bred horses, and it's thought that dreamfinder might have had it. Not sure of the particulars, but it can cause muscle issues. It's a 60 dollar hair follicle DNA test to find out.I have done some searching and it appears that magnesium is great in high volume for both underweight and over weight horses. It seems to help fattys regulate and loss weight, and thin horses to gain. Plus it has been noted to help with hoof condition. (I want to do more research, I have adhd and ocd so I get random thoughts and must find out all i can lol)


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## livelyblueyes (Apr 5, 2014)

I will post some more Yogi. All of these pics are within the last two weeks. (She is really filthy in the ones from today). Her weight goes up and down drastically very quickly. As for her hind end I do agree with you . She has no muscle there. After she foaled she pulled everything from her back and hind end like a dairy cow does. A friend of mine said she is simply "milking" off of her back and not to worry so much. I have just caught so much trouble since I got her that it is insane..and I am not even talking about her problems. I am speaking of other individuals always wanting to involve animal control. Thank goodness my vet and farrier were willing to back me up. I had her next to a boarding stable prior to bringing her home and ..it was bad. I drove up one morning to find a woman digging through all of my horse feed and stuff. Then had her cussing and raising sane at me because the colt had mud all over him and she thought he was disgusting and they were out of water. I went over 3 times a day to feed and double check everything. The colt admittedly was nasty and they were out of water. In fact that was the reason he was muddy. My two mares had dumped the water bins and they had all rolled in them. I was flipping period because some strange woman was messing around my horses and we had problems with people vandalizing our stuff. SO yeah I was not a nice person. SHe was actively trying to get animal control over there because she assumed I was not feeding the horses or providing any care. Thank goodness I keep my vet records and such in a folder in my vehicle. I was like listen you are so convinced I don't feed them then you go ahead and buy feed let me tell you what I purchase each month! I was going through 10 bags of Nutrena mare and Foal,4 bags of Equistages, 80lbs of beet pulp and 120 lbs of alfalfa pellets. Not to mention the hay bill and fat supplements. LoL she bought some and I won't lie I appreciated it but one bag I didn't even use. Safechoice Senior was a waste of time with my horses. Both mares were indeed seniors but Sunny would get hotter than a firecracker and Pig would colic. Long story short she has not bothered me since and she is now on my facebook friends because i can keep an eye on her. Long and short I have been going crazy worried that maybe I have not been doing right by her. Yogi.. I cannot say enough how much better you made me feel. Her weight fluctuates badly. Anywho here are the additional pictures.
PSSM omg I never once thought of that! It literally describes almost everything with her. Ok epiphany moment..going to get the vet back out and get that checked for specifically. We used to use beet pulp without molasses and the last few months we had to switch to with molasses. In the dirty ones she almost appears to show ribs but trust me it's not. I am going to rearrange her feed as if she does have PSSm. I do not know anything of her breeding. In truth when I got her I went through Netposse looking to see if she was stolen. She is actually a really gorgeous mare when in good weight aside from her color. She is a very loving mare and so food driven it's insane.



She's filthy in this one. I take pictures constantly so I can compare.Wet night last night and she decided to lay down in the dirt instead of her stall.
Taken a few days ago ( like maybe 2 or 3)


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## livelyblueyes (Apr 5, 2014)

The filthy ones are all from today. Collectively these pictures are from Nov 16 to today. The first picture I showed ya'll is from the 16th. She had a round of Diarrhea and (thankfully) I believe it's almost over this time. So the filthy pic is today. Nasty weather all day. Tomorrow her and Headshot are both getting a full cleaning. Both got a grooming today after those pics ( i dunno why I take the worst pics possible of them and the compare to previoys ones). This is where she was the day she foaled


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

She is obviously very thin. Don't get me wrong. BUT I definitely feel like there is something health wise going on (glad the diarrhea was short lived I was going to ask it that was "normal" for her) and quite possibly a muscle wasting disease (PSSM but ask your vet about anything else that could cause that). I just feel like there is far more to her "look" then just weight. In some places she looks like she has muscle loss and the saggy belly is quite likely related to weak muscling (and of course a foal lol).

I feel there is more of a muscle/health issue then just a weight issue atm and if she doesn't do well any heavier then this I would try to keep her "there" and wait and see what the vet says on PSSM/similar issues/overall health.

I COMPLETELY sympathize with having a thin horse. Our old mare had stomach issues and we were working closely with a vet. She was VERY loved and cared for but emaciated, though happy and relatively healthy otherwise. I would of been devastated if someone had felt the need to get involved (or gone rummaging through stuff on our private property). I would send you a picture but I don't have any on this computer. It was very hard. Hugs!


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## jcarpen5 (Oct 4, 2014)

I had an Appaloosa stallion that I raised. Yes, who keeps a horse as a stud for 14 years when they don't intend to breed him. But he was a special case, a trustworthy teddy bear that had some ornaments. I wanted to geld him late because I wanted him to get those gorgeous cheeks  when he was 3yrs old he started losing condition and fast. He wasted away to skin and bones, but was getting plenty of groceries. The vet came out, ran labs and all were fine. He and the whole practice were stumped and recommended we consider putting him down. At the lowest weight and condition he stayed there for 2 weeks and finally began putting weight back on. He would be great for a long time with nice muscles and then he would do it again. There was no pattern at all. He would go 6 to 18 months between these episodes. After his second episode and more labs that were good we then managed him on our own since he never seemed at an energy loss and other than appearance he was never out of sorts. He was by a zippo pine bar and bright eyes brother bred stud and oUT of an appy mare that had poco Bueno on her papers. We bought the mare in foal and she was ,supposed to have performance points. Realized after she foaled that she was actually unbroke. The woman we got her from decided that she was going to repossess the pair since we complained that the mare was not as stated. She cashed our check, but when dealing with people with more money than brains you should remember that you will always get screwed. Woman inherited millions of dollars, enough to spend 2 million on an appaloosa stud and not bat an eye. 
Anyway, she stated that our contract was for the foal only not the pair and that money we paid was for leasing the mare from 9 months pregnant until foal was weaned at barely 3 months (5 months) the mare was a horrible mother and was abusive to little Gizmo. She was good til he was one month old then she seemed to be trying to wean him. She had to be hobbled so she didn't hurt him.

Anyway, she did the same thing when he was born, all through the topline muscle just gone. We were concerned but she didn't go to the extreme your mare has, or her son did as well and she went back to Florida as soon as Gizmo was weaned.
unfortunately, we decided to let Gizmo go to a friend of the family. He did the same thing that he has always done and turned into skelator pony and she had him put down. She knew about this strange condition and that he pulls out of it. I wish I had been informed prior to her making that choice, yes it looks alarming as hell, no it's not contagious and he always came back to himself. I would have brought him home in a heartbeat! Gizmo was the sweetest critter  

Sometimes an owners lack of care ends up better than some overzealous owner ready to jump the gun and save their horse from any suffering. If people chose the care for their family with the same Gung hoo - kill them so they don't suffer- attitude , there would be headstones that said, "Here lies Fred, his wife cut off his head because his finger looked a little red, poor Fred, he only had a papercut and now he's dead"... lol 


Plus side is, some "well-meaning " person didn't put her down when they had the chance. Down side is becoming a self taught equine nutritionist, supplement guru, and amatur veterinarian.. there has to be some sort of Appaloosa skeleton in the closet when it comes to this... 

As for safe Choice, it gets Pokey hopped up like a 2 year old in a cotton candy machine. .. even though the vet recommended it I only use ,it as a small portion of his feed due to ease of feeding. I double checked my scoop (kids plastic cup) and he gets 3 cups 2x daily. Far under the recommended amount. But I make him a special mix and it's a small part of big picture when it comes to his feed. I think they make it a "hot" mix so it seems like seniors are "feeling their oats" and puts more pep in their step so it seems like it's working well for the horse. I don't agree that it is a good thing, I'm sure many people think it is though. ...


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## jcarpen5 (Oct 4, 2014)

You can do a 5 panel genetic test for 100 dollars. It's a hair strand test, might be more cost effective to test on your own than to have vet come out. You can contact ApHC and see if you can send in photos and have her papers located. As a leopard, it might be easier to locate her since last I knew, there were less leopards per year, than other coat colors and ,,your don't have to deal with trying to sort through every colored mare registered from 90 to 95. Might be neat to see what you can find out about her history that way


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## livelyblueyes (Apr 5, 2014)

Thank you everyone for your advice. I have her on Empower balance ( it has made a HUGE difference) as well as beet pulp and a weight booster. Now mind you it is likely too soon to see weight gain but she is definitely moving around so much better! She is no longer so stiff and will break into a trot of her own accord. She does have free access to hay 24/7 . Just that little bit seems like night and day on her. No longer feeding her anywhere near as much ( as the Balance seems to do very well on her). Had planned to cross the Nutrena Boost and Balance with each other but the feed stores here did not have the boost so I got a TSC brand of weight booster. I know it sounds silly to say I have been seeing the results I have but they are there. Her coat is like silk it is so soft. Her belly no longer has that bloated look either. I did worm her last month but even after that and psyllium she still have that large stomach. Her stomach is now up a bit better and no longer bloated looking. Overall she does not seem like the same horse. She gets roughly 2lbs of the Empower each day. The smaller amounts she is eating between the three feedings have seriously made a huge difference. She was getting massive amounts of feed before and she seemed to feel horrible. While I considered it good quality feed I was not able to get enough in her (and stay in her) to meet manufacturers recommendations. She would poo it out so fast heads would spin. I am amazed at the difference in the old girl right now. She also had a round of probios.. which amazingly enough is probably the only thing she is not willing to eat. I love the pep to her step. She is feeling much better. Side note the Beet pulp we use does not have molasses in it. While I do worry about the sugars in it .. it does not phase her and seems to be her favorite part of the meal. Thank you so much for your thoughts. I will post pics and my own thread in the nutrition section soon. To the OP sorry I did not mean to hijack your thread.


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## livelyblueyes (Apr 5, 2014)

Actually i will not be posting a new thread. Ms.Piggy has gone to a wonderful new owner and has lots of room to move and graze. Thank you for the help you all gave me.


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