# Stop Sunday Hunting in Virginia.



## maura

I wasn't aware that there was a bill pending to allow Sunday hunting in Virginia. 

Can you give the citation for the legislation?

And I'm not sure from your post what you view as the problem; Sunday hunting or hunting deer with dogs?

Also, East of the Blue Ridge, in no county is firearms season for deer longer than two months, and in some counties is as short as three weeks.

Deer

As a horseperson and a trail rider, I don't worry much about either archery or muzzleloading seasons, as there is very little risk to me riding in the woods.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

I'd be an unhappy camper if they did away with Sunday hunting here. I see a few problems with it. My hubby more often than not works 6 days a week so Sunday is his only day to unwind and hunt. Not to mention we eat a lot of venison (and upland birds) that we take ourselves, not having that would certainly add more cost to my grocery bill. I'd also wonder what effect that would have on cutting back the deer population. We have a huge overpopulation problem here, so much so that one individual can get 8 tags in my county. Hunters are also encouraged to hunt other counties where they can get more tags as well as open hunt days at our state parks with a draw. Last year my hubby took 6, 3 in my freezer and we had the other 3 processed to donate to the food pantry. 

I mainly hunt pheasant & quail, that's such a short season as it is that if they took away Sunday hunting me & my dog would be depressed. 

I do agree about the idiots chasing them down with trucks, that's not sport. Though I doubt any law would keep folks like that from doing what they are going to do. They aren't playing by the rules as it is.


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## Joe4d

The dogs and lack of road hunting enforcement are a separate problem. But Achery starts 1 oct and muzzleloading 5 Nov, so gun hunting runs from 5 NOV-7 January in much of eastern Va add the archery season and it totals just over 3 months, (1/4th not 1/3 that was a typo above.)

The bill was voted down last session, but since then the VDGIF, and the NRA has come out in support, so I imagine 2012 will see it show up again

MH foundation Quarters, Do you go trail ride on your horse during deer season ? and how long is the season. It wouldnt be that big a deal to me if the season was truely only a couple weeks, but it is the entire fall and into winter down here.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Our season runs about the same amount of time, though they split it up quite a bit. Bow is in now until Nov, firearms Nov-Dec including 2 weeks of muzzleloader, followed by late archery Dec to Jan 1. If firearms were in now, I might go deer hunting...too cold in nov/dec to sit in a tree stand for me lol!


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## maura

As I stated previously, archery and muzzleloading seasons don't impact my riding at all. I just wear my blaze orange, ride in the middle of the day, and try to avoid friend's tree stands so I don't spook their game. 

In my part of VA, regular firearms season is 7 weeks long. So, Sunday hunting would mean 7 weeks of prime riding weather where I could only ride in a small area, so yes, I'm opposed. But I don't think it's a serious threat.

As far as hunting with dogs, it requires a very large tract of land. The only places around me where it occurs is at private hunt clubs with big leased tracks of land. Also, on a large farm property where I leased a barn and paddocks, the owners allowed a local hunt club to bring their dogs twice a year on doe days. While not to my taste, it's a very effective technique to reduce population, and as the last undeveloped property in a mostly suburban environment, the deer population was a huge problem. I cancelled lessons and kept the horses up those days, and the hunters would save me a haunch. 

So while I don't want to participate in it, I don't have a problem with it when done responsibly.


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## Joe4d

There in lies the rub, responsibly. Doesnt happen around me, the run deer everywhere and hunt from the roads. Dog hunters will turn there dogs loose on on eroad let them run across posted property, and shoot the deer as they run across the other side. And Nothing LEO will do about it. 

But back to Sundays, as yu just said 7 weeks, 7 isnt a couple weeks like the NRA-ILA is falsely reporting. That is all fall. 

Most of the decent places to ride are state and national parks and forests, many of them open to hunting. So just avoiding a "friends treestand " isnt gonna cut it.

Honstly I dont see the problem now. It is a very good compromise for everyone, hunters hunt six days a week, every saturday and all holidays, The rest of us are just asking for one day a week.


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## SaddleDragon

You dont want people hunting on sunday, because you trail ride on those days? I have got to be missing somthing. 
In MI, gun season is only 2 weeks long, bow season is 3 months long. I know nothing about muzzleloading. Hunting deer from the road or with dogs is illeal, in all areas, as far as I know. 
No one trail riding is going to get shot with a bow...I mean a bow doesnt have much range and the hunter would be able to see that there is a horse.......
not to mention any chit chatting that goes on while trail riding would be a dead give away....and a ruined hunt.


The last thing this country needs is more gun legislation. Its silly to think someone shouldnt hunt ( not deer shooting) on sunday. If thats when they have time to put food on the table, then so be it.

I think the whole thing is silly. Enforce the laws that are already in place, not add more that hinders those that DO follow the law.
Passing a law doent affect those that break them, so no need for new ones.


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## Bearkiller

Joe, apparently you lack the basic requirements for critical thinking. I have dogs that I run on bear, lion, bobcat and ****. These are the same basic dogs people use on deer. Last I checked, dogs can't read no trespassing signs. Or anything for that matter. You are the classic problem of what's wrong in society. ME! ME! ME! ME! ME! What


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## MHFoundation Quarters

I do trail ride during hunting season, both on my own land as well as state park land. I wear my orange bird vest, bird pockets are good for horse junk too lol. The state park hunts are one day deals and they don't allow any campers, hikers or riders on those days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wyominggrandma

Not hunting on Sunday would be unfair to the people who have to work the rest of the week. Why would it be any different for hunters to want a law passed that says" horseback riders can only go in the woods on Wednesday" so we are free to hunt the rest of the week. 
We have lots of months of hunting in Wyoming for the different species. We also have lots of folks that ride horses during hunting season to both hunt and to pleasure ride. It is just the way it is. Nobody is allowed to use dogs for hunting except for mountain lions, so that is not an option. 
There are probably more hunters in your state that will oppose your "law" than there are riders. 
I'm sorry, this is a completely silly idea. If you are riding on public land, then the hunters have just as much right to hunt that you have to ride.


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## Bearkiller

Your whole complaint is based on 12 days a year. Seems more like a brainless agenda than an actual issue with the practice. I would think you'd feel safer having deer shot at 30 yards in front of dogs than at 400 by some clown with cheap optics. I know I would. This is all about narcissism. The biggest problem with our society today.


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## kitten_Val

They tried to push the law in MD. ALL groups using parks (trail horse riders, bike riders, joggers, you name it) stood up against. So they were not able to push it through in several (most dense) counties.


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## farmpony84

The dog hunters in our area area actually very considerate. They have actually asked permission to run them through our property, which truthfully, they don't need. Since dogs can't read no tresspass signs. The law does however state that no hunter can enter private property without the consent of the owner. Dogs on the other hand is a different story. Our local farmer has permission to run his dogs through our property. They give us no problems at all. He even lets us know when he's coming. The Sunday rule would be quite an irritant but not in my area as our hunters would be in church that day.


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## kitten_Val

wyominggrandma said:


> Not hunting on Sunday would be unfair to the people who have to work the rest of the week. Why would it be any different for hunters to want a law passed that says" horseback riders can only go in the woods on Wednesday" so we are free to hunt the rest of the week.


Besides horse riders parks in MD are FULL with families, joggers, bikers, you name it. Way way more people than hunters. And many of them do work 6 days/week too and Sun is the only day to come out and enjoy the nature. Most parks in MD already has closure days for hunting when usual people are not permitted. Sun would be just way over top given a fact how many people go there on weekends. 

So yes, as part of MD Trail Riders I voted against it (in fact 98% of people in my organization did), and we brought it up to the hearing. I know of several other organizations doing the same.


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## Joe4d

horse riders have to work also, currently the law in Va is no hunting on Sundays. How is that interpreted as ME me me me, if I want one day out of 7 ? Hunters already get 6 days a week and now they want the 7th, If anything the dog deer shooters which have monopolized and ruined every other type of hunting are me me me.

It wouldnt be a big a deal if the season was only a couple weeks, but like I mentioned. In my area it is over 3 months long.

My purpose in this post is to alert people in VA that like the status quo. Efforts are afoot to change things. Those efforts include false information from the NRA-ILA, and the NRA-ILA were undertaken without any input from it's membership.


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## Speed Racer

wyominggrandma said:


> Not hunting on Sunday would be unfair to the people who have to work the rest of the week.


I don't normally disagree with you wyoming, but I have to here.

I work during the week and the weekends are the ONLY times I have to ride in the fall/winter, so if Saturdays are already taken by the hunters, why should they get Sundays too? How is that equitable to the non-hunting population?

Don't get me wrong, I think hunters should be able to take whatever the quota happens to be for the species that they're hunting, but why should they be given _all_ the prime autumn time, and horse back riders restricted to arena riding?


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## farmpony84

I personally would rather shoot Bambi with a camera then a gun but to each his own. Husband wants to eat Bambi that means I have to cook Bambi....

As for hunting on Sunday, I don't want to see it either but I'm not going to scream that hunters are selfish or dangerous or inconsiderate. That is lumping a whole lot of good people in with a few bad ones. 

If they were to pass it, then you could haul to any state or federal park any day of the week and ride. Not convenient I know, but it's trail riding at it's best. Me, I'll just ride at the house for a few months. It's cold and miserable out during that time of the year anyway.


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## Joe4d

if they are not dangerous why do you ride at your house ? My reply of sefishness was a reply to being called selfish and unthinking because I think it is ok to have one day out of 7 reserved for non hunting activities. 
Also I cant haul to state and federal land because as mentioned earlier they hunt there also.
I used to really enjoy hunting, I also grew up with no hunting on Sundays, There are many small steps we could make to eliminate soem of the problems, Like only hunting on private property, no dogs, or other sunday restrictions. But I see no reason to compromise, when like pointed out we are talking 12 days of no hunting out of the other 100. The 12 days of the year that tend to have the nicest bug free weather in these parts.


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## farmpony84

virginia laws regarding private land:

*Hunting on Private Property*

Trespass violations, posting property, and access issues are all concerns affecting landowner's considerations for allowing hunting. Hunters are reminded that it is unlawful to hunt on private property without the permission of the landowner, and hunters must have the permission of the landowner to track or retrieve wounded game on private property.
*On Posted Property:*

It is unlawful to hunt without written permission of the landowner and is punishable by a fine of up to $2500 and/or 12 months in jail.
*On Property Not Posted:*

It is unlawful to hunt any unposted property without permission of the landowner and is punishable by a fine of up to $500.
*Landowners may post their property by any of the following methods:*


Using a paint mark of aluminum color paint consisting of a vertical line at least 2 inches in width and at least 8 inches in length, no less than 3 feet and not more than 6 feet from the ground or normal water surface and visible when approaching the property.
Signs that specifically prohibit hunting, fishing or trespassing on the property.
*What Landowners Should Know*

For landowners, finding responsible hunters can provide many benefits for both the landowner and sportsmen allowed access to the property. There are benefits of having responsible hunters included as an important part of the landowner's wildlife management plan, especially if they are absentee or do not hunt themselves. There are many in-kind benefits of such relationships including road maintenance, habitat improvement, security and safety. Reputable hunt clubs are also helpful, and lease fees can offset property taxes. Information on locating responsible hunters can be found by contacting local civic groups like Ruritans, or 4-H Clubs, sporting goods shops and area landowner contacts that participate in Tree Farm or Stewardship Programs. Members of sportsmen's conservation organizations that are dedicated reputable partners with DGIF promote safety, ethics, habitat improvement, and scientific management of wildlife.


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## farmpony84

Hunting is only allowed on specific state parks. 

*Hunting is prohibited in all National Parks in Virginia.* For current information related to any permitted hunting activities view Park specific websites or contact via Park public information telephone lines. (example: Blue Ridge Parkway or 1-828-298-0398).


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## Iraqandback03

*Sunday hunting*

I'm very sorry to hear that you are having to deal with a criminal and unethical element but I certainly wouldn't call what those people are doing hunting. When a bank robber goes into the bank we don't call it banking. There are criminals in just about every activity and the law should get involved and it will be solved.

The other 44 states that allow Sunday hunting have proven that the horse riders and hunters exist peacefully and without strife.

The other irony is that chase hunting with dogs is already happening all over Virginia. Essentially the General Assembly has singled out deer, turkey, waterfowl and said none of those types of hunting.


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## Bearkiller

Joe4d said:


> But I see no reason to compromise, when like pointed out we are talking 12 days of no hunting out of the other 100. The 12 days of the year that tend to have the nicest bug free weather in these parts.


 
I didn't know there were less bugs on sundays? They must go to church, too. :lol: Like i said, you're whining about 12 days out of 365. Why ban dogs? Hunting with dogs is the most safe way to hunt. Dogs aren't going to chase the horses. The idea that horses and hunting don't go together is a new one to me. I know lots of people who do both. But like I said, you have an agenda and you've already stated that you see no reason to compromise.


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## Joe4d

Bearkiller said:


> I didn't know there were less bugs on sundays? They must go to church, too. :lol: Like i said, you're whining about 12 days out of 365. Why ban dogs? Hunting with dogs is the most safe way to hunt. Dogs aren't going to chase the horses. The idea that horses and hunting don't go together is a new one to me. I know lots of people who do both. But like I said, you have an agenda and you've already stated that you see no reason to compromise.


have you even read the thread ? 
I'm not whining about anything , I was refering to the Sundays during hunting season, And yes I do have an agenda, continuing the ban on Sunday hunting. I also am familiar with VA law, and lots of hunting goes on on state and national forests, and other public lands paid for by all taxpayers. I dont see the issue with hunters getting 6 days a week and the rest of us getting 1. Luckily so far Va state legislature agrees.


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## Iraqandback03

*Sunday Hunting*

I can tell you are not a hunter, you are an anti pushing an agenda. You know how I can tell?

1. You start the post with you credentials to gain credability, my experience is those who have to do that don't deserve any.
2. You describe Virginia woods like they are a wild wild west style lawless war zone. Flat out a lie and anyone who is a hunter knows it.
3. You don't describe any legal recourse or compromise except No Hunting on Sunday. Archery hunting would be less dangerous than the fox hunting that is already happening on Sunday.
4. Your last post was written as us/me vs. them.

You're no hunter, no reasonable person, and only pushing an agenda. Go back to your HSUS or PETA meeting group hug session and tell them your cover was blown. Better luck next time...


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## Saddlebag

The rules are quite different here in Ontario. No dogs. Most hunters sit up a tree on a stand near well worn deer trails. This gives them a better view and don't shoot each other by not walking around. It's been done this way on my land for 10 years and every year one or two American hunters go home with a nice 10 pt buck. Now, if our ministry would also let them take does. Only residents can so far but they are few and far between. The deer population has exploded here also.


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## Joe4d

I really dont have any reason to lie about anything, and have been perfectly honest about my agenda, continuing the ban on Sunday hunting. Some of the circumstances in my area make it harder to enjoy the woods at the same time than it may in other areas. 
1 lack of trespass enforcement, 
2 use of dogs and the large group road hunts, not the single guy every now and then in a treestand. Creating the perception (I'll admit that it may be just a perception of a less than safe place to be riding around on a four legged brown animal
3. the length of the deer season.
4. I strongly feel that having 6 days of hunting followed by 1 day of none is a great situation for all concerned.
callng me names wont change that and I really have nothing to prove or defend to anyone. 
If you would like to see the status quo remain I encourage you to contact your state reps. If you would like to see it change you are free to do the same as well, obviously I dont encourage you to do so. 
I hope everyone stays safe this fall and enjoys their favorite pastimes, I plan to ride on Sundays.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

I'm confused.....hopefully someone can explain? When I read comments made in opposition of expanding Sunday hunting it always seems that equine enthusiasts base their opposition on a fear of being shot by hunters. VA licenses about 250,000 hunters each year. All hunters are required to take hunter/firearms safety training. How many horse enthusiasts have been shot by hunters? I know the answer so please don't post anything that's inaccurate. There are about 2,000,000 gun owners in VA, and all of them are permitted to shoot, essentially without restriction on Sundays. Why does it seem that we completely ignore the majority of gun owners, and the true risk, when we stress the importance that Sundays remain hunt free? Actually, hunting on Sunday is quite legal. In fact, there isn't a minute of any Sunday, anywhere in the State when, or where hunting is unlawful. Hunters that ask for Sunday hunting, are only asking to have the right to choose what happens on privately owned property. Is having the right to use one's on property as they sit fit unreasonable? Removing hunters from the outdoors on Sundays doesn't remove the risk of being shot.....which incidentally is ultra low. Actually, you are far more apt to die from a horse riding injury than you are any accidental firearms discharge including that of a hunter.


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## Joe4d

Huntssundays, thank you for your civility, 
looks like there were 9 hunting fatalities last year, 5 self inflicted gunshot wounds, 2 treestand falls, and 2 people shot by someone who though it was a deer or turkey, there were also some injuries cited but not a total. There was only one horse riding fatality last year to my knowledge. (I know not really relevant) and as you stated probably lots more shooters and hunters.
No riders being shot could just as easily mean nobody on a horse goes in the woods during deer season.
I seriously have no issue what happens on private property, however as I stated above, property lines are not respected, and trespass laws unenforced.
People that dont want Sunday hunting are only asking for one day out of the week to enjoy the woods without fear, of being shot. The hunters can have it the other 6.


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## maura

BTW, I believe, but have no specific evidence, that the current practice of not hunting on Sunday is a vestige of Virginia's "blue laws" and the state's conservative, religious mindset. 

HuntSundays, the reason I avoid the woods during regular firearms season is not due to my fear of being shot, it's due to my fear of my horse spooking at the sound of gunfire. It is just not a whole lot of fun to spend the entire ride riding defensively in case your horse spooks out from under you. Also, in my county, it is legal to hunt deer with rifle, not just shotgun, so there is an increased risk of an accidental shooting.

If there's actually a bill or proposal to allow hunting on Sundays, which I don't think there currently is, I would oppose it, because I do enjoy my one day a week in the woods worry free. However, I think horsepeople do themselves a diservice by adopting the us versus them philosophy. It's important in terms of safety and land conservation for hunters and riders to be allies as we share the same threatened resources - open land. 

I ride a big tract of land that's leased to a hunt club. And they hunt with dogs and keep a kennel on the property. They pay a yearly fee to have exclusive rights to hunt the property, and they do an amazing job maintaining it as well - trails are always cleared; most are graded. I ride the property for free, and other than the occassional favor to the landowner, do no maintenence. I go out of my way to be polite and respectful to the hunt club and NEVER, EVER interfere with their hunting. 

Joe4d, I am still confused about exactly what your beef is and exactly what action or postion you're advocating. With the deer population down, and the prevalent attitude in Virginia about respecting the sabbath, I truly doubt we'll see Sunday hunting anytime soon. 



> I seriously have no issue what happens on private property, however as I stated above, property lines are not respected, and trespass laws unenforced


This makes it sound as if your real issue is certain irresponsible hunters, but I'm still confused - if you have no issue with how private land is hunted, then we're talking about state or national parks and wildlife management areas. How can property lines and trepassing be an issue for hunters on government land?


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## HuntSundaysinVA

I understand the concern for a horse spooking. We leased land from a family that were horse enthusiasts. Through communication we had a wonderful, and respectful relationship. This family rode every Saturday during hunting seasons. There was never a problem. It could be this way everywhere in the country.....through a little communication. My activity (hunting) is quite important to myself, and others that love it. Some of those that don't hunt have activities that are dear to them. No activity is so important that it should infringe on the other's. If you do a little research at the DGIF website you'll find that hunting on Sunday in VA is perfectly legal. It's lawful every minute of every Sunday, and statewide......we aren't trying to get something passed that isn't already legal. Our interest is the right to hunt our own property as we choose. Is it unreasonable to ask that we have that right? I had absolutely no problem scheduling horseback riding through commercial vendors everyday of hunting season. Those that offer riding on their property utilized that property everyday.....hunting wasn't an issue. I understand, and respect your concern......but aren't their other situations that would cause a horse to spook? We don't restrict shooting sports on Sundays, or anyday.....so the risk of spooking from a gun shot exists regardless of hunting seasons. Aren't horses spooked at times by automobiles, dogs barking, trains, birds, other strange noises and sights? If there was absolutely no hunting, wouldn't there still be risks that a horse will spook? Do horses ever spook outside of deer seasons? Is it possible that we can all share our outdoors in a way that we all have access to what we love? I know that there is......we do it everyday already, including Sundays.


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## Joe4d

No activity is so important that it should infringe on others, exactly. Hunt for 6 days a week. I am not sure what hunting on Sundays you are referring. The issue in question is deer hunting which is not allowed on Sundays unless it is a special hunt somewhere.
The No sundays is probably one of the blue law hold overs. The NRA-ILA, makes a point that the government shouldnt be telling people what day is holy. I agree with that point. Which is why I havent brought up some of the religious objections some groups make to Sunday hunting.

Generally I feel a spooking horse is pretty much the problem of the owner and horse. No way you can predict everything it's a training issue. Cant really blame the rest of the world. Just have to deal with it.

I feel I have been pretty clear with my position, I think a 6 and 1 split of the week is perfectly reasonable. Which is currently the law here by the way. I can see the property rights issue but that goes both ways. You should have the right to do what you want on your land, and I should have the right to not have something happen on my land, and we should be able to share access to public land.
However as pointed out. I wouldnt feel safe sharing public land on a brown horse with deer hunters, a common feeling.
Current law, lack of enforcement, and dog hunting activities prevent me from doing what I want on my property and those of my friends who happen to live near areas people dog hunt. We simply cannot venture into the woods in the fall on anyday but Sunday which is perfectly fine to most people as long as they have the one day.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Joe4d said:


> Generally I feel a spooking horse is pretty much the problem of the owner and horse. No way you can predict everything it's a training issue. Cant really blame the rest of the world. Just have to deal with it.
> 
> However as pointed out. I wouldnt feel safe sharing public land on a brown horse with deer hunters, a common feeling.


The first part, I absolutely agree with. My horses are all okay with gunfire, I even skeet shoot off of one of my mares. 

The second part, I'm a bit iffy on. I have a hard time accepting that any responsible hunter could mistake a 1,000+ lb horse with a human on it's back for a deer. I ride & own several bays, I put on my orange and ride. Now during hunting season, I don't let our foals in our woods. The neighboring property does have a few who hunt it and I could see a bay or brown foal possibly being mistaken for a deer.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

My intention is to argue that Sunday hunting can't be a valid reason that prevents anyone from riding a horse. My intention is not to become combative I assure all of you. I hope we all respect that we have certain rights.....those that ride horses have that right, and those that hunt should have that same right. If the issue is that a horse could be spooked by gunfire, shouldn't the real concern be all potential gunfire? Hunters make up about 8.5% of the 2,000,000 gun owners in VA. If we don't restrict shooting a firearm on Sundays, but only restrict hunting we really have no way of knowing that our horse wouldn't become spooked by non-hunting gunfire would we? In fact, the gunfire that spooks our horse could be that of a fellow horse owner/rider? Preventing hunting doesn't prevent the "gunfire" risk of a horse being spooked does it? Do horses not get spooked in indoor riding facitilies where a gun is never fired? Aren't horses spooked by sudden movement? Aren't some horses spooked by other horses? Horses can be spooked by bees, and other insects. Some horses are just easily spooked. 

Saturday, and yesterday evenings I sat in a ladder stand that's within a few hundred yards of a pasture. There were probably a half dozen horses grazing in the pasture. Someone, and it could have been a hunter, or a non-hunter, shot (perhaps even a horse owner) what sounded like a high-powered rifle maybe 20 times. I watched the reaction of the horses through my field glasses......none of them spooked. Incidentally, the shots were much closer to the horses than I was. Yesterday, someone decided that lighting fireworks, sounded like fire-crackers, was the appropriate thing to do. Again, the horses seemed to pay absolutely no attention to the noise.

I haven't ridden in years.....but I used to be an avid rider. One bay gelding that I rode had a spook issue with low hanging limbs. It seemed that whenever I trail rode him, and we approached a low hanging limb he would break and run until he felt the threat no longer existed. That horse spooked by sight, but not by sound.

My sister-in-law owned a Welsh gelding.....he never spooked to my knowledge. His name was Bud, and he was just a very relaxed animal.

Another horse I rode, spooked whenever the ground became too soft, or unstable.

A close friend, who's both an avid rider as well as hunter, hunted for years off his horse. He said he could rest the rifle (.22 rimfire) between the horse's ear and shoot.......that horse never spooked.

Horses spook for a variety of reasons, not only noise and/or gunfire.

Riding horses is fun, relaxing, and exciting, but it can be highly dangerous. I'm pretty sure riding horses is one of the most dangerous recreational activities in VA. Most injuries are from falls. Most serious injuries are to the riders head from falls.....oddly not all riders wear head protection? Why is this the case? Is it reasonable to ask hunters to refrain from hunting on Sunday as a measure of increasing the safety of horseback riding, when not all riders wear head protection, nor do they do everything within their power to make their own riding experience as safe as possible?

Hunting on Sundays is very lawful in VA. Shooting on Sundays is very lawful in VA. What we've demonstrated is that hunting, shooting and horseback riding have peacefully co-existed in VA for decades. 

People often mention hunters have six days to hunt, but they only have one. Please give that statement some thought. We all have seven days.....and it's not been an issue. 

Again, every activity that you state a concern for is lawful on every Sunday. All the hunters that supports the expansion of Sunday hunting is asking for, is equal rights. Are equal rights not what everyone wants? Aren't we all guaranteed equal rights under law?


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## farmpony84

I don't want hunting on Sundays because I don't want to share my land with the Bambi killers that one day a week. (My husband is one of those horrific gun toting murderers of all things that are cute and fuzzy). 

The sole reason I haven't joined in the anti-hunting argument is that my wants are purely selfish. I will however, readily admit to it.


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## AlexS

Odd that there are 2 new people joining the board just to post in this thread. 

I am not in VA, but I would prefer a 6 day hunting week rather than a 7. It's not just for horse riders, it's for anyone who enjoys the outdoors.


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## Joe4d

I already conceded shooting noise and spook isnt the concern My horses live in a shooting range, and yep horses can get used to anything.
I dont get people saying in one breath riding horses in and around deer hunters is perfectly safe, but in the next breath say they wont let the younger horses out. Fall early winter is full of holidays, all of which are open to hunting. 
I dont know why Hunts Sundays keeps saying Sunday hunting has always been legal, Right out of the law book under hours, The regs say, "No Sunday Hunting"
I know burried in the reg are a couple of exceptions but basically there is no Sunday hunting.
I can definitely sympathize with property right issues of landowners that want to do what they want on their own land, but until there are new laws and new level of enforcement of property rights of people that dont want hunters on their property I will oppose any change to the Sunday rules.

All the statistics in the world wont change the fact that I, or anyone I know with a horse would never step foot in the woods during open deer season.


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## farmpony84

Joe4d said:


> I already conceded shooting noise and spook isnt the concern My horses live in a shooting range, and yep horses can get used to anything.
> I dont get people saying in one breath riding horses in and around deer hunters is perfectly safe, but in the next breath say they wont let the younger horses out. Fall early winter is full of holidays, all of which are open to hunting.
> *I dont know why Hunts Sundays keeps saying Sunday hunting has always been legal, Right out of the law book under hours, The regs say, "No Sunday Hunting"*
> I know burried in the reg are a couple of exceptions but basically there is no Sunday hunting.
> I can definitely sympathize with property right issues of landowners that want to do what they want on their own land, but until there are new laws and new level of enforcement of property rights of people that dont want hunters on their property I will oppose any change to the Sunday rules.
> 
> All the statistics in the world wont change the fact that I, or anyone I know with a horse would never step foot in the woods during open deer season.


I had to go back and read other posts to catch that. Joe is correct. There is currently no hunting in Virginia on Sundays. 

*Hunting Hours*


Sunrise-Sunset Table (PDF)
There is no Sunday hunting.
One-half hour before sunrise to onehalf hour after sunset for nonmigratory birds and game animals except during spring gobbler season.
One-half hour before sunrise until 12 noon during spring gobbler season, except the last 12 days the hunting hours are ½ hour before sunrise until sunset.
One-half hour before sunrise to sunset for Youth Spring Turkey Hunt Day.
Hours for bear hound training season are ½ hour before sunrise to 4 ½ hours after sunset.
Bobcat, foxes, raccoons, and opossums may be hunted by day or night during authorized seasons.
Nuisance speciesmay be taken day or night.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

You have to read a bit deeper Joe. Look at fur bearing, and trapping seasons. Actually, I'll give you the codes 29.1-521, 29.1-100 and 29.1-516. Those dogs that you continue to mention can be lawfully hunted 7/24/365, and in fact those that hunt fox or raccoons can, by law, follow their hounds onto your property any hour of any day, including Sunday and you have no power to prevent it. Others that hunt with dogs have the right to come onto your property to retrieve their dogs, and there's nothing you can do to prevent it. VA regulates hunting seasons for 22 wildlife species. Of that 22 species, only six are completely protected from Sunday hunting. We aren't asking that VA pass Sunday hunting. Hunting on Sunday is a tradition that's in it's fourth century. What we are asking is that VA expand it's Sunday hunting regulations so that private landowners, and their guests may utilize that property as they see fit. Is that unreasonable?

Is it reasonable to prohibit the expansion of Sunday hunting based on the fear that non-hunters will be shot, and not focus on the true risk, which is hunters make up only a small portion of those that own guns and have the right to discharge them? In order for any argument that involves a fear of being shot to be valid, there has to be evidence that people on horseback have been shot. To say that people don't ride when hunting takes place simply isn't the case. Again, I had absolutely no problem scheduling riding during hunting season through riding vendors. 

VA offers it's residents, and any non-residents over 2.5 million acres of public lands.....most of it is open to horseback riding, but none is open to gun or bow hunting on Sundays. Expanding Sunday hunting on private property won't change what takes place on public lands. If you ride on Sundays on public lands.....it will continue to be business, or pleasure as usual. If you ride on private lands, then you should understand how the private landowner feels......it's their's and they should have say on what takes place there.

By a wide margin, hunters and horseback riders are good, law abiding considerate people. Hunters are no more tolerant of "bad apple" hunters, than horse people are of those that are "bad apple" horse enthusiasts. Like others, hunters police themselves.

Certainly, there are hunters that violate trespass laws. Certainly, there are horseback riders that also violate trespass laws. Hikers, mountain climbers, bird watchers, mountain bikers and the list goes on, have violated trespass laws as well. Why do we never hear these folks mentioned when we talk about trespassing?

My family owns property next to a horse facitlity in Chesterfield. We had trespass issues from two types of people. Primarily those that rode horseback at the academy, and secondly, some neighbors that had dirt bikes, and atv's. It was frustrating, yes. We thought about calling law enforcement, but decided it might be best to talk with those that trespassed to make sure there wasn't a boundary misunderstanding. What we found was that by approaching these folks and discussing the issue there were mutually beneficial results. We ended up renting trails for riding to the horse academy, and the boy's parents that rode atv's ended up allowing us access to their land for hunting. Everybody was better off, simply because we communicated. No law enforcement was involved, no criminal charges, no court dates, and no unhappy people.

I promise you, the responsible hunter will not tolerate trespassing. In fact, the DGIF recommends allowing responsible hunters access to one's property as a security measure of sorts. 

Hunting on Sunday on private land won't impact anyone's ability to ride safely, unless, of course, you're riding where you shouldn't be!


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## Bearkiller

Hunt, Joe has already stated that they have no plans to compromise. I plan on sending a donation to the virginia deer hunters association in his/her name. Thanks for bringing my attention to such a critical matter, Joe. Any time liberties are being trampled on. I will do whatever I can to help!


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## kitten_Val

HuntSundaysinVA said:


> I promise you, the responsible hunter will not tolerate trespassing. In fact, the DGIF recommends allowing responsible hunters access to one's property as a security measure of sorts.
> 
> Hunting on Sunday on private land won't impact anyone's ability to ride safely, unless, of course, you're riding where you shouldn't be!


Actually bullets don't know where the boundary of the private property ends. 

The problem here though not EVERY hunter is responsible. Which is sad but true. The law in MD says, for example, you cannot shoot within certain distance from the fence of other person property. Still people do it all the time. Personally I don't care about the noise - in fact I appreciate it, because it's a good desensitizing. However the last thing I want is to get a bullet or arrow in my back or my horse's butt. And believe it or not it HAPPENED here in past in parks.


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## Hollabelle

I will admit I did not read this whole thread, but for those who say it is the only day in the woods they can enjoy, what about the other 310 days that we all ride when deer gun hunting is not permitted? We horse riders are allowed 365 days a year in which we can ride our horses if we choose to. Deer hunters are not allotted the choice to hunt on Sunday's because of the law. How would we all feel if they regulated us and said we could only ride our horses from May to June and not on Saturdays at all? I think we would all be very upset if this happened. Those that would shoot a horse, across a road, or trespass on others land are not the majority of the hunters out there, they are the ones that give them a bad name. Just as There are some of horse riders that purposely ride during hunting season, past deer hunters completely ruining their day and it is giving us a bad name. We are talking about a total of eight Sundays during gun season, 13 the whole season. Should not everybody have the right to enjoy the woods everyday of the week? Are not hunters also horse back riders, bird watchers, hikers and nature enthusiasts? What about those whose worship the lord on Saturdays? I am speaking to you as an avid horse enthusiast, riding since I was five and owning since I was 13, but I am also a hiker, a bird watcher and a hunter. Nothing gives me more pleasure, nor relaxes me more than to sit in the woods, whether on a horse or win a gun or bow in my hand, and see the birds feeding around me and chirping merrily, the sun glowing through the tree tops, the soft cool breeze blowing my face. I am a hunter, a horse rider, and I enjoy my time in the woods. Who are we to take away from others?


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## Joe4d

Hunts sunday the first part of yur last post is exactly the problem, dog hunters tresspassing and nothing I can do about it, other than shoot the dogs, which is legal if they are in an area used by my livestock, but I figure it isnt the dogs fault.

The dog training and other forms of hunting that you continue to mention even though this discussion is about deer hunting arnt relevant to the conversation or what worry other people. Tbhe millions of gun owners you mention arnt either. They arnt in the woods shooting at brown deer running by. That is the concern,
You also keep mentioniong property rights. What about my property rights ? I cant stand hunt or small game hunt, on my own land because the road hunters run their dogs across my land. And like you said other than shooting the dogs their is nothing I can do about it.
Its interesting how in a system the allows 6 days a week of hunting including Saturdays and all holidays and my position is to just maintain the current law and give me 1 day a week I am being called unreasonable because I dont want to compromise. I have stated my positions and this thread has served it's purpose to alert the people that would like to keep the things the way they are. Nothing you or anyone else can say will convince me that riding in the woods during open deer hunting days is a bright idea. If you enjoy it go ahead, Come on down to Surry County and see what goes on here. Even other hunters dont like it.


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## SaddleDragon

Some people hunt to fill the freezer, your adgenda is selfish.

You keep complaining about those that dont follow the laws. WHY do you think adding another one would make them stop?
It wont.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Would a proposal that allowed small game, waterfowl, deer, bear and turkey hunting on private land be something you could live with? Deer and bear hunting with archery, or muzzleloader weapons from fixed and/or elevated positions. No chase hounds for big game. Small game, turkey and waterfowl with air, rimfire, or fine shot only......? Could you feel safe on Sunday if these were the rules?

I hunt in Suffolk and Isle of Wight...so I understand how it happens?

Are you aware that every county in VA has the ability to outlaw carrying a loaded hunting weapon in a vehicle? Only a handful do. Lots of your concern could be eliminated if you did what you are asking others to do, and became involved. Ask your county administrator to bring up the topic at it's next meeting. I have to believe there isn't a county that wouldn't change their position if enough people expressed concern.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

kitten....I heard about the horse that was shot on Assateague Island. That's completely unexceptable. I didn't follow the story, but I pray that the person was prosecuted, and will never hunt again.

I can only share my own experiences.....in forty years of hunting I have never come remotely close to anything some of you fear. Quite honestly, during organized hunts, which are not my favorite, I was within lethal distance from others hunters quite often.

Hunting's safety is evidenced by it's record. Yes, just like with all activities there are risks. You are actually more likely to die from a fall within your own home than to be even injured by a hunter. If that's not a safe enough benchmark, then you have absolutely no business getting into an automobile. Prescribed medications are far more dangerous than hunting.

Sunday hunting, under reasonable regulations is something any person should have a right to choose today.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

One other comment. I've spent lots of time outdoors. That time includes all days of the week. I've never crossed path's with anyone during any day that wasn't another hunter.....with one exception.....the kid that rode his 4 wheeler on the logging road that I hunted off.


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## farmpony84

A friend of mine had a horse shot in her field last year. It was just before hunting season and near dark. That is what you call an irresponsible hunter that has no concern for the law or anyone around them.

Hunt, the thought process that you have regarding the retrieval of hunting dogs is completely unacceptable. I can tell you folks in this area would not dare come on to private land without permission to retrieve their dogs. The people around here are old country and have respect for their neighbors. Local hunters have formed clubs and these clubs get permission from all those who's land they run their dogs across. 

They don't have to. They only need permission from the people that own the land where the dogs are dropped and then the people who own the land where the dogs are picked up. But it is a common curteousy to ensure you don't anger your neighbors by running dogs across their land.


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## Joe4d

SaddleDragon said:


> Some people hunt to fill the freezer, your adgenda is selfish.
> 
> You keep complaining about those that dont follow the laws. WHY do you think adding another one would make them stop?
> It wont.


I havent said anything about adding a law, Currently the law is No Sunday hunting, I would like it to stay the same. Currently you have about 100 days to fill the freezer, I dont think it's selfish to want sundays off.

The rules you proposed would be acceptable, I wouldnt even care about the dog hunting if it all stayed on private land. The problem is we have no enforcement options of the current rules. SO like the poster above said whats the point of new laws if there is no enforcement of existing laws ? 
After I saw trespass enforcement
After I see road hunting enforcement,
After I see dog hunters respect property rights,
After I see public land property lines posted and respected,
Then I wouldnt care if the Current Sunday law was changed for private property. If the above were the case I wouldnt even have started this post. But currently all we have is a No Sunday hunting.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Farmpony....it's so sad when I hear of a cruel act like the one you describe. But, it wasn't a hunter that commited the act.....it was a criminal. With few exceptions, hunters don't hunt at night. Nothing that happened to your friend or your friend's horse had anything to do with hunting. Did the person(s) that did this also hunt? Perhaps, yes, but when they did this they removed themselves from hunter to criminal. Unless, of course it was a complete accident?

What was the outcome of the investigation? Did those that commited this act have previous criminal records? Did they come forth, or did they have to be apprehended? Did it turn out to be intentional, or accidental?

I'm surprised I didn't see this on the news, hear about on the radio, or see it as soon as I open my computer. I'm more surprised I didn't read of this on a horse website. I visit them often to get indications of what the horse community's concern of hunting, and Sunday hunting are. It's nearly impossible to find anything written that mentions hunting and safety. In fact, other than being contacted once in the past by a writer from Horse Talk magazine, this is the first thing I've seen related to Sunday hunting. I'm sure the horse community will have it's speaker at the GA to testify in opposition to Sunday hunting, but there is no testimony on any of the websites now.

Folks the subject, and push to expand Sunday hunting isn't going away. It's likely that our current laws are unconstitional. The fight for Sunday will continue until it's granted. It's obvious that there is a mixture of feelings on the issue, but I think it would be easy to argue that most are in acceptance and/or in favor of Sunday hunting. Joe, this is your home turf, and the "survey says" hunting isn't an issue. In your situation dogs, and those that handle them while hunting is the issue.....or concern. If they do something illegal.....report them please. Hunters want those that don't follow the rules gone more than the non-hunter, trust me. If what they are doing is lawful, but it bothers you, then perhaps it's a personal issue, and has little to do with hunting.


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## kitten_Val

HuntSundaysinVA said:


> One other comment. I've spent lots of time outdoors. That time includes all days of the week. I've never crossed path's with anyone during any day that wasn't another hunter.....with one exception.....the kid that rode his 4 wheeler on the logging road that I hunted off.


Hunt, it also depends on where you live (and looks like responses here are very much depends on whether you live in populated area vs desert :wink: ). I do ride sometime during a week (when I'm on vacation), and people are always in parks around. BUT we have lots of people in area, so no surprise.

I'm not sure how it works in VA, but in MD they close parks for hunting, weekends including (i get the schedule). I have no problem with it because yes, hunters should have their time too. However I don't consider giving out all Sun from Sept till Feb or Mar leaving the rest of us without place to go to be a good idea.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Maura.....read what you've written.....and think a bit about it.

You ride a big tract that's leased by a responsible hunt club, with no investment on your part. I'd wager that there are people that give you this wonderful gift that would love to have the choice to hunt on Sunday.....but you would vote against a Sunday hunting bill? How inconsiderate, and selfish is that? You've benefited from hunters, but wouldn't support their interest.....wow!


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Joe, your bottom line issue is deer hunting with hounds. I'll assume that this issue has existed for quite a few years? If my assumption is wrong please accept my advance apology.

A few years back our game department conducted a study, "Hunting with Hounds a Way Forward". For those of you who are unaware, hound hunting in VA is huge. The hound hunting laws are quite liberal. To give you an idea how liberal......fox, and raccoon hunting are lawful around the clock and statewide. These species are primarily hunted by houndsmen for sport, and are seldom killed. The thrill is in the chase, and how the dogs work. On Sundays VA also allows raccoon hunting with firearms or achery tackle until 2:00am. If a fox or raccoon hunt chases onto another's property, the hunters have the right to follow the dogs wherever. Essentially, about 60 years ago our Governor issued fox hunters written permission to hunt anywhere in the state. Raccoon, and bear hunters saw this as an opportunity to exclusivity, and lobbied the game department successfully for additional Sunday hunting. 

Joe, if your issue existed during the hound study that was your opportunity to comment. Not long after the hound study, the vahda went to counties throughout the state and asked that each county adopt resolutions to protect the dog hunting heritage. I'm pretty sure Surry adopted this resolution.....which required public input.....again another opportunity. Oddly, I only hear about hounds being an issue when that issue is tied with Sunday hunting opposition. Trust me, I research hunting, and especially Sunday hunting quite a bit. 

Joe, correct me if I wrong, and explain your position with any correction. Your issue isn't about hunting on Sunday, it focuses on deer hunting with dogs, and the intrusive nature, at times, of that type of hunting. You don't have an issue with a person lawfully hunting on private property on Sundays, provided it wouldn't intrude onto your property?


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Hunting licenses have been the primary funding source for 200,000 Wildlife Management Area acres in VA. These areas offer a wide variety of outdoor nature activities, not just hunting. I believe that most, if not all of these areas offer horseback riding......but none of these areas offer Sunday hunting.

If I were a horseback rider I'd have to consider this deeply when I was asked to support any hunting causes.


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## SaddleDragon

So Va. had no DNR or wildlife enforcement? I find that very hard to belive.
*Keeping sundays hunt free isnt going to stop any of what you are afraid of, those people dont follow the law*. Sounds to me like you should be posting this stuff on a law enforcement board or sending letters to the state level govt.


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## Joe4d

Keeping sundays hunt free stops the other unsafe and illegal and inconsiderate behavior at least on sundays. So we tolerate the other stuff the rest of the week. 
The issue is SUNDAY HUnting, and maintaining SUnday hunting bans. Nothing else. The issues with dogs and other problems are reasons to keep the Sunday ban in place. I read the VA constitution and before posting, Its actually a pretty bad amendment. You have a right , subject to general assembly. Not much of a right actually. But the way it is written the General Assembly can regulate and restrict hunting, including, NO hunting on Sunday. If the ammendment had been writtten simply you have the right to hunt a court challenge would probably had worked.
Like I said IF there wernt lots of other issues primarily with the deer shooters, Sunday hunting wouldnt be as hard to deal with.
BUT and a big but there are huge issues with the deer shooters and until they are addressed the best compromise is No hunting on Sundays.
After looking up the VA ammendment I did a quick search for horses shot by hunters, and was appalled at the number I found after only a single search, alot more than I thought, including case of a 12 yo girl having her horse shot out from under her, the shooter got a small fine. These were reports from published news stations and news papers not internet hearsay. Some of these cases were on posted private property.
So now I even more strongly keep my position that is is unsafe to trail ride horses during open hunting season, and why we should have a single hunt free day the rest of us can enjoy the outdoors, Including our own posted property without fear of being shot.
I have saved all these news articles to forward to my reps the next time this issue comes up in the General assembly. I dont think you will win a constitutional challenge in court the way the amendment is written.


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## tempest

That's the thing about hunting season though or anytime you're outside, there's always a chance to get shot, even if there are laws. My parents won't let me walk around on property during hunting season, especially in the woods, without wearing brightly colored clothes and blaze orange during hunting season. My area is pretty "safe" when it comes to hunting seasons, but there is at any time, a chance that I could be shot by a hunter outside of hunting season when I'm not expecting a hunter to be out.

It general, it's unsafe for anyone to be out during hunting season, no matter what you're doing for recreation, be it horseback riding or just walking.

And I don't know much about the situation with hunting with dogs seeing as we don't have it Michigan, well, at least not where I am, but what I do know is that if anyone sees a dog chasing a deer that person can legally shoot the dog, and can choose between shooting to kill and shooting to injure.


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## Joe4d

The right thing to do would make trespass with a firearm a felony and firing a shot that lands on someone else's land a felony and then actually enforce and convict. But I dont see that happening, I see the same people crossing the same boundary getting the same warning year after year. Generally LEO wont even respond to trespass complaints during deer season because it is so widespread that is all they would get done during deer season.

I do see your property rights issues. And normally I am all for the, MY Land I'll do what I please argument. But I cant support your right to do what you want on your land, when there is no respect for me to do what I want on my land. There is also the domino effect to worry about. Current state law is No Sunday Hunting, I am concerned that making exceptions for private lands will be a stepping stone for making the same exception for public land.

Seriously I dont see how any impartial person can look at the issue and see a 6 hunting days, one non hunting day, as a unreasonable compromise to address the concerns and desires of all concerned. So far that is exactly what the general assembly says.


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## bsms

Mixed feeling here. I don't hunt any more, but I have. I also told folks, honestly, that I was shot at more times during deer season in Utah than I was in Afghanistan!

I once came around a bend in I-80 to see a car stopped on the freeway. 4 hunters were out, on both sides of the car, shooting at some deer a half mile away while standing on the freeway itself! I managed to miss them, but always felt afterward that I'd have done the human race a favor if I had taken out the 2 guys closest to my lane...

In theory, no hunter should ever come close to shooting someone on a horse, or the horse itself. But my son-in-law (ex-Marine, handgun hunter) tells the story of seeing two guys in NY running out into the field to see their freshly shot...Holstein. The owner was not amused...


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## maura

Hunting, 

This whole conversation is entirely hypothetical, because right now there is no Sunday hunting in Virginia. I still truly don't know why Joe4d raised the issue, because as far as I know, it's not likely to change anytime soon. It's based much more on religous conservatism in the state, and not at all on respecting the rights of riders and hikers. 

Deer *seasons*, particularly regular firearms seasons are set according to the deer population. If you look at the link I posted, the Virginia map is a patchwork of different seasons and regulations becuase they are set with an eye towards controlling the deer population. 

HS, If you read my posts, you'll find that I am extremely sympathetic towards hunters, and that is the only reason I am allowed to ride that particular piece of land. I am the only local horseperson that's allowed to, because of that very fact. And I always defer to the hunters, as they pay for and maintain the property in a way I don't. We also let a teenage hunter use the deer stands on our land under the condition that he let us know when he's there, because he's a responsible hunter and a good kid. 

You'll also find that I maintain that hunters and horsepeople should work together as they have a common interest in preserving open land. However, where I strongly disagree with you is your idea the hunters and horsepeople can share a tract of land simultaneously. IME, that just isn't true. They can share it by turns or parts, but not simultaneously. If I'm riding a hunted property early in the AM or late in the PM, I will spook and start their game and ruin their hunting. So I don't do it, or I communciate with the local hunters about where they're hunting when. The converse is, that during regular firearms season (not bow or black powder) no one in my area, and I mean no one, rides in the woods. You're correct in your assessment, you can train a horse not to spook at gunfire, however, I have not done so as it's a long, time consuming process. Your other examples aren't pertinent, however. My neighbor maintians a shooting range on his property and you can often hear 20 - 30 minutes or intermittent gunfire. My horses look up at the first couple, then go back to grazing. However, the same horses, ridden out, that have a deer rifle go off unexpectedly 30 - 50 yards away, will spook out from under their riders. 

Saturdays during regular firearms season in my part of the world are extremely busy hunting days, and no one in their right mind rides out on hunted land. On doe days, I don't put a hoof off of my property, period. 

So I would hate to lose the Sunday hunting prohibition. But if it was removed, which is not at all likely, I would continue to be a responsible landowner and landuser, respect hunters rights and try to cooperate with them. I don't see how that makes me selfish or a bad person. 

But if the Sunday hunting ban is ever waived, it will have way more to do with the overpopulation of deer and crop damage than the desires of horsepeople and other outdoorspeople.


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## Hollabelle

What about our children, our military, our police force,our working force? They work and most only have the one day to hunt a week. Are they not the driving force of our nation? Have you ever thought about why saturday is the busiest day for hunters? maybe because most of them have been in school or work all week long and its the only day they get to go hunt. The Department of Game and Inland Fisheries is behind legalizing Sunday hunting for all because they have realized that the move would help gain more funds, and create more jobs. This would help take those who perform the illegal acts of shooting across the road, and trespassing, out of the woods. Their is not enough man power to do this now because there is not enough money to pay for it. Each year there is a decline in the number of licenses sold. Our Game warden for the area was the only person working a six county district for two years. How could he be there for every complaint? As a horse owner I will tell you the only day during deer season that I have a problem with dogs on my land chasing my horses is on Sunday. I believe this is because the hunters are not out there collecting the dogs or running the roads, turning the deer and keeping them on the property they are hunting. In our community there used to be a time when you were aloud to hunt anywhere, everyone knew one another, and there were alot less instances of problems. Just a few years ago a kid went out at night shooting over twenty deer in the head with a .22, and left them to rot in the ditch, just to show off how good a shot he was. He is not the typical hunter, he actually isn't a hunter at all, he is a criminal. His actions do not speak for mine.


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## maura

Hollabelle, 

For now, it's a moot point. 

If you really want to see Sunday hunting allowed, first of all, wait for a year when the population is up and the number of nuisance/corp damage permits issued is high. Then petition the DGIF or the legislature. 

That is a whole lot more likely to be effective than posting on a horse forum. 

Even if you somehow persuaded folks on this board that someone else's desire to hunt took precedence over their own wants, we'd be unlikely to petition the DGIF or legislature on your behalf.


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## Joe4d

Hollabelle said:


> What about our children, our military, our police force,our working force? They work and most only have the one day to hunt a week. Are they not the driving force of our nation? Have you ever thought about why saturday is the busiest day for hunters? maybe because most of them have been in school or work all week long and its the only day they get to go hunt. The Department of Game and Inland Fisheries is behind legalizing Sunday hunting for all because they have realized that the move would help gain more funds, and create more jobs. This would help take those who perform the illegal acts of shooting across the road, and trespassing, out of the woods. Their is not enough man power to do this now because there is not enough money to pay for it. Each year there is a decline in the number of licenses sold. Our Game warden for the area was the only person working a six county district for two years. How could he be there for every complaint? As a horse owner I will tell you the only day during deer season that I have a problem with dogs on my land chasing my horses is on Sunday. I believe this is because the hunters are not out there collecting the dogs or running the roads, turning the deer and keeping them on the property they are hunting. In our community there used to be a time when you were aloud to hunt anywhere, everyone knew one another, and there were alot less instances of problems. Just a few years ago a kid went out at night shooting over twenty deer in the head with a .22, and left them to rot in the ditch, just to show off how good a shot he was. He is not the typical hunter, he actually isn't a hunter at all, he is a criminal. His actions do not speak for mine.


Those same children, military, police and workforce, should also have a day to enjoy the woods without hunters Also many are just as likely to be off on another day as a sunday,
It's not the dogs that worry me, its the buckshot being aimed at the brown furry large animals running through the woods and me and my horse being mistaken for one of them. A very real concern based on the news reports I have found.
I have repeatedly brought up the lack of enforcement as one of many reasons to keep Sunday hunting closed. 

In your community you mentioned about everyone hunting everywhere, I bet it was also pretty common practice, NOT to go in the woods during big game season. I grew up in the same type of area. We didnt even small game hunt during deer season. But Deer season was only a few weeks so was never an issue. We also didnt have Sunday hunting. 

Lots of days in VA, the deer season runs in some form from OCT1 to January 7th with basically no bag limit, thats alot of days, and most of the holidays in the year. We are just trying to keep our one day a week.


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## bsms

The deer season in Virginia, according to Deer, runs 7 weeks or less with a rifle. Antlerless runs longer in 4 counties. Some other counties have a much shorter deer season.

You are not at risk from hunters using bows or muzzleloaders.


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## maura

Joe, 

Please look at the link I posted earlier. 

Except for the 4 counties in NoVA with a special late season for does only (Loudon, Fairfax, Fauiquier and Prince William) the longest regular firearms season is two months. (That's in Chesapeake, Suffolk and VA Beach) The rest of the counties are anywhere from two to seven weeks. 

I think we can assume from that the NoVa counties have a big pest deer problem.

"In some form from October 1st" is technically true, but you're at very little risk riding or hiking in the woods during bow or muzzlingloading season. 

You're also not at much risk from getting shot by somebody hunting with a shotgun loaded with buck shot; the relatively short range and stopping power mean that hunters are taking only slightly longer shots that with bow or muzzleloading. Now, it's still noisy in the woods during hunting season, and I still don't want to ride in the woods, but the risk of getting peppered by buckshot is pretty small. 

If what you really want is shorter deer seasons, then support your local hunters - DGIF sets seasons and bag limits according to the available population - few deer, shorter season, more deer, longer season and larger bag limits.


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## wyominggrandma

Oh boy, I hunted today. Its Sunday and there were plenty of folks riding horses in the same hills/mountains riding and hunting off those horses.
Guess it depends on where you live. Guess I am glad I live in Wyoming, hunters, trail riders, hikers, etc all manage to do their activities at the same time.


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## maura

Lots more open land, wg, not the same kind of woods and more room for both the hunters, riders and hikers to spread out and give each other elbow room.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Maura, you're right.....much different terrain in WY. But what about TN, GA, MS, AL, WV, NY, OH, KY, FL, SC, MD.....very similar terrain, and all of them allow Sunday hunting?

Our proposal is one I think we all should be ok with. It asks the Commonwealth of Virginia to grant the regulatory authority to the DGIF to allow Sunday hunting on non-public properties for the following species all small game, migratory upland birds and waterfowl, deer, turkey and bear. We've asked that Sundays be added to small game and migratory fowl seasons, and don't oppose reducing the total season days, by the number of Sundays added. We understand that hunting deer, and bear with dogs is an issue that deters many from supporting the expansion of Sunday hunting. In fact, there are many hunters that don't support hunting with dogs....but that's another can-of-worms. With regard to deer and bear, we're asking that Sundays be added to archery, and muzzleloader seasons and continue through general firearms seasons......incidentally, it's unlawful to hunt with dogs and archery or muzzleloader in conjunction. As far as turkey, it's lawful to hunt them with shotguns loaded with fine shot.....for those familiar, nothing larger than #2 shot. No rifles, no buckshot, no dogs, and no National Forests, no State Forests, no State or Federal Parks. This leaves the 2,000,000+ acres of public nature lands hunt free on Sundays. In summary, we're asking for the same number of days we now have, no public Sunday hunting access. Basically, just the right to hunt our own property. Sound reasonable?

I believe Joe will back this up. These types of hunting rarely involve any level of property intrusion, they pose, based on recorded history, no incidents of accidental injury by weapon to the non-hunter.....and it's the right thing to do.


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## Joe4d

Sorry but no, Its a stepping stone issue, first the private then the public land. 6 days of hunting followed by 1 day of none is more than reasonable.
It actually goes both ways, If you are bow hunting, do you want a bunch of people running , riding and biking past your stand ? I wouldnt, and out of courtesy I would try to avoid spoiling someones hunt. So I stay home on saturday and ride out on sunday. 
Sorry but there is no way I would ever trust the hunters enough to share the woods with them during open deer days. I am not alone in this feeling and based on news reports of horse shootings I am more than justified. I dont think it is fair to have one group of Virginians have exclusive use of the out doors for a quarter of the year.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Wow Joe, your opening post complained about deer shooters hunting over dogs, and shooting out of trucks. Then a little later you said you were ok with private land hunting as long as it stayed on private land.

Your position is unreasonable. There is no season on anything except for hunting. Your concern is your safety, and you can't have a reasonable argument that revolves around the risk of being shot if you don't include the entire risk, so by just including hunters you can't address all risk. If I hunt on my own property, which you wouldn't have access to, how in the world would our path's ever cross? 

You mentioned the public lands, and the hunting that takes place there.....with this proposal none of that land would see any change. You're being unreasonable.

The DGIF publishes deer harvest records that go back to 1947. Since that time hunters have registered over 6,500,000 deer......I'd suspect there were another million that were killed, but never registered. Conservatively, those deer account for 10,000,000 hunter's shots. In that 10,000,000 shots there is no record, in VA, of a horse or it's rider being shot. Who knows how many 100's of millions gun shots have been shot while hunters were hunting game other than deer? How many billions of rounds have been fired at clay targets, paper targets, milk jugs, soda cans and so on.....but not one of them found a horse or rider.

The argument of six days on, one off is unreasonable. Deer hunting season with firearms is more like 7 weeks on, and 45 off.

Joe, your argument is about as reasonable as someone saying that horses carry disease and are a threat to humans. Or horses bite and kick and are a danger to others. Or horses can be spoked and become out of control. Or trail riding degrades our nature areas and represents a danger to human foot travel, and the runoff from horse waste kills what lives in our water systems....therefore horse trail riding should be banned in public places. Sure, all of this is true, and it all could happen, but just like getting shot, even though there's risk.....it seldom if ever results in an injury. We all understand that what we do poses certain risks to others. If we do it with care, the risk is not a factor. None of your concerns are a factor, or we'd see absolutely no riding....because the risk of being shot, and the dog factor exists always.


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## maura

Hunt Sundays, 

As stated repeatedly, the prohibition has nothing at all to do with attitudes about hunting and everything to do about attitudes about Sunday. 

It doesn't matter whether or not I think your proposal is reasonable, because I am not involved in the decision making process. 

You need to convince the Virginia State legislature, and then DGIF. To convince the legislature, you need to find members that's are not afraid of alienating conservatives and the religous right. That's your biggest obstacle right there. 

If you somehow get over that obstacle, you now have to convice the DGIF to expand the season. That will only work during a cycle when the population is increasing; it goes against all conservation logic to expand the season when the population is steady or declining.

Finally, I have to ask again - why are you having this discussion on a horse forum?


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## Joe4d

You are taking things out of context, I said I would normally support property rights, and would be ok with private land hunting, However I also said I didnt believe that hunting would stay on private land, either from a domino effect or trespass issues. We needed tougher trespass laws with actual enforcement. We have a very simple law now, "No Sunday Hunting." Until there are changes in attitudes, laws and enforcement I dont see changing my position.
The hunting groups should campaign to get that changed, THEN ask for Sunday hunting,
This discussion is on a horse forum because I was notifying other horse people about the campaign in VA, that came to my attention with this months NRA American rifleman. The NRA-ILA didnt survey it's members and was using some false/misleading info to present their case. ( I say their as opposed to our because although a life member the NRA-ILA doesnt speak for me on this issue.) So far the Horse trail riding clubs have been pretty vocal about keeping the law the same and have successfully killed this bill in the General Assembly. I am also pointing out to the General Assembly members that there is a cross section of NRA members that do not support the measure either.
People on brown furry animals fear of being shot is a pretty graphic and understandable symbol to present to legislatures that dont really have an opinion one way or the other. It is a very hot issue with the horse riding clubs in my area. We all like to trail ride and fall is the best time of the year.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Maura thanks! To answer your question why am I posting on a horse forum.....each year when Sunday hunting bills are brought to the GA members from the equine committee come forward and testify in opposition. I'm involved, passionately in the push to expand Sunday hunting. Our law needs to be changed. Our law shows favoritism to certain hunting styles......but it doesn't prohibit hunting on Sunday. I feel it's important to understand the opposition's position, as well as I would my own.

Quite honestly, I've read nothing here that leads me to believe that hunting on Sunday on private land, and without deer, or bear hounds is an issue to the equine community. Certainly, there is a fear of being shot.....which is natural. There have been some cases where horses have been shot. None of these cases are acceptable. I can promise you as an experienced hunter, any hunter that mistook a horse for a deer wouldn't want me as a judge, or a juror. Mistaking any target is completely inexcusable. If you look at the number of shots that are fired and the number of mistakes, and compare that to other activities......hunting, and those that share the outdoors with hunters is quite safe.

What truly should alienate the conservative right is that VA offers more hunting just on Sunday, than is offered during six day seasons for the six of 22 species that are protected from Sunday hunting. Our law declares Sunday as a day of rest for wildlife, but makes exception for 16 species. If we offered absolutely no Sunday hunting, and did grant that day of rest, chances are high, that I'd feel very different about the issue. Those that ride horses may very well feel the same way if laws were adopted that restricted trail riding, or forced riders to use only English tack. Our Sunday hunting regulations are a complete mess. One of the biggest complaints is our hunting dog trespass issue, but our law allows hunting with hounds every minute of each Sunday, and statewide. I'm surprised that someone in the horse community wouldn't challenge this regulation. Essentially, someone that hunts with hounds can hunt anyone's property for fox, or raccoon, but that same landowner can not hunt the property on Sunday for other species.

Next session, when I testify in support of Sunday hunting, I'll be able to take with me what I've read, and shared here. Most of you are supportive of Sunday hunting. Some called some's agenda selfish. Let's all face reality....hunting and other activities coexist without issue. If it didn't, the non-hunting outdoor enthusiast would fight hunting, until it was abolished.

As far as a stable or declining population. I'm convinced that the DGIF is receptive to increasing hunting seasons. This is what is truly rediculous......in certain areas, and not all are "Urban", VA offers seven months of deer hunting. Not one peep from anyone in opposition. Mention hunting on Sunday for a handful of Sundays, and the entire community becomes enraged.

Actually, before we see Sunday hunting expanded, we'll likely have to see all of it completely banned. Take away the 14,000+ hours of Sunday hunting, and the push to expand Sunday will pick up thousands of supporters.

Safe riding all.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Joe thanks for a civil debate. I understand the fear of being shot, but again, the record says you wouldn't get shot. Trail riding takes place across the entire country, including VA, and during the height of deer season. In fact, there were trail rides coordinated by riding clubs on Sept. 24th of this year. Sept. 24th also happens to be National Hunting and Fishing Day, as well as VA's Youth Deer Hunting Day. I had absolutely no problem scheduling riding through commercial stables on any day during deer season.

What's odd is that some laws we base solely on fear, and other laws we based entirely on income. This year it is highly unlikely that any non-hunter will be injured or killed by a hunter's bullet. This year on Sundays we'll experience over 100 alcohol related traffic fatalities. We refuse to allow the expansion of Sunday hunting, yet we continue to expand our Sunday alcohol sales, and ABC hours. That's something we all need to fear. Go figure.

Joe, quite honestly, the majority of the support for Sunday hunting wants it to be dog free.


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## franknbeans

Joe4d said:


> No activity is so important that it should infringe on others, exactly. Hunt for 6 days a week. I am not sure what hunting on Sundays you are referring. The issue in question is deer hunting which is not allowed on Sundays unless it is a special hunt somewhere.
> The No sundays is probably one of the blue law hold overs. The NRA-ILA, makes a point that the government shouldnt be telling people what day is holy. I agree with that point. Which is why I havent brought up some of the religious objections some groups make to Sunday hunting.
> 
> Generally I feel a spooking horse is pretty much the problem of the owner and horse. No way you can predict everything it's a training issue. Cant really blame the rest of the world. Just have to deal with it.
> 
> I feel I have been pretty clear with my position, I think a 6 and 1 split of the week is perfectly reasonable. Which is currently the law here by the way. I can see the property rights issue but that goes both ways. You should have the right to do what you want on your land, and I should have the right to not have something happen on my land, and we should be able to share access to public land.
> However as pointed out. I wouldnt feel safe sharing public land on a brown horse with deer hunters, a common feeling.
> *Current law, lack of enforcement, and dog hunting activities prevent me from doing what I want on my property and those of my friends who happen to live near areas people dog hunt. We simply cannot venture into the woods in the fall on anyday but Sunday which is perfectly fine to most people as long as they have the one day.*




Have read to this point in this thread, and not yet further, so forgive me if someone has addressed this. Joe, there are a couple of things bugging me here. You have said time and time again there is lask of enforcement in your area. If that is the case, realistically, what difference does it make what the law says? The people who are ALREADY breaking the law are not going to all of a sudden become law abiding citizens because a law changes. It seems to me the issue you need to address in locally, in getting better enforcement. I think you are being a bit niave in thinking you are "safe" from the hunters on Sunday, if, indeed, the enforcement is as lacking as you lead us to believe.

Why can you not ride on your own property when you want? Really? If there is an issue call the police! They are trespassing, clear and simple. You do this enough times, they will most likely not want the hassle.

You are exagerating the season a bit, as others have stated, since the musket and bow are really no threat, as stated previously. That leaves you with regular gun season. Has it ever occurred to you that Sunday MAY also be the only day some good hard working people can hunt?

I also stay out of the woods certain times of the year. Even riding out in the open I wear BRIGHT orange...I have even made a Halloween saddle pad that is bright orange. Go with friends and chatter loudly.....etc. If you really want to ride, go for it. THere are ways to coexist.

I think you have come to the wrong place for this battle. JMHO. Now...back to my lane.........:wink:


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## mysticalhorse

Joe- I'm trying to understand how your opinion that Sundays during the fall season are the best days ever to ride? And all the other days are no good? So it never rains on Sundays in VA or is unseasonably cold? I'm sorry but your arguments & opinions have no leg to stand on. 

I'm glad that in Oklahoma we can hunt everyday of the whole season.... which is short compared to the rest of the year. Then lets add I am a mother to 3 small children & Sunday mornings are my only time to get out in the woods b/c my husband works Mon-Sat.... oh and its the only day he can too so we have to take turns. 

I will count my blessings on where I live & just continue to *shake my head* at the "reasons" you want to keep your Sundays.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d

Despite the lack of trespass, firearm, and road hunting enforcement, the bad apples dont hunt on Sundays.
As pointed out police dont respond to trespass calls, even if they did the penalties are non existent and calling the police after I am shot wont do much good.
You really need to visit my area and see what goes on during deer shooting season. It's pretty shocking. Until we get some new laws and some actual enforcement I will always fight to keep Sundays hunt free. 
I am a hunter, and have bear and deer on the wall but I no longer hunt for personal reasons. I have nothing against people that hunt in a sporting manner M-saturday, I allow it on my own land. I never hunted on Sunday though and never thought it was a big deal.
You may want to educate yourself on muzzleloaders, they are not "Muskets" they are precision rifles accurate out to 200 yards and lethal a long long ways. 
I disagree with Huntson sundays interprtation of "reports" People in my area simply dont ride during deer days, and I quickly found quite a few Horse shot by hunters documented cases.
My biggest issue with eroding the no sunday hunting rule, would be more erosion for the sake of "compromise". with each concession would be demand for more.
As pointed out any concessions wouldt happen until after several conditions were met. The group wanting the concessions should see to meeting some of them rather than expect the rest of us to deal with it. I am perfectly happy with the No sundays rule.
Farm groups are against it, Hunt clubs are against it, riders are against it. the General assembly is against it. I dont really see any large segment of Va that is in favor of it.
6 on and 1 off decent compromise, taking sunday isnt compromise it is hunters taking all.


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## maura

Hunt Sundays, 

I doubt seriously you've lessened any horseperson's opposition with the argument you've made so far. I am one of the most pro-hunting horsepeople I know, and nothing that you've said is in the least bit persuasive to me. (No, that is not an invitation to continue trying.) Nothing you've said makes me feel any safer riding out during regular firearms season or more likely to do so. 

Calling people who enjoy the peace and quiet of a Sunday afternoon ride selfish for doing so isn't likely to win you any converts either. 

And I'm not even the person you want to persuade - the person who is passionate enough to show up in protest at the GA, who believes that you're killing Bambi, or believes that a shotgun loaded with buckshot is a hazard at 100 yards, that's the person you need to persuade. 

So I think you have a lot of work to do developing your case. 

Finally, if what you really want is to hunt Sunday, find a farmer with a nuisance or crop damage permit. They will welcome you with open arms if you're a responsible hunter.


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## Joe4d

Buck shot at 100 yards is a hazard, do the math ( I just did ) the retained energy of a single 00 buck pellet at 100 yards is similar to point blank energy of some standard velocity 22 rimfire, 
I think Maura hit the nail on the head, claiming Most hunters are responsible, most obey trespass laws, doesnt help.
Saying that hunting is safer than horses is false, Look at last years statistics, 9 hunting fatalites, 1 horse.
Saying hunters wont mistake horses for deer is false, happens too frequently.
Saying other hunters wont tolerate it doesnt do that dead horse or injured rider any good.
Saying fear isnt real isnt helping. I know I am , I know alot of other people that are, I hate to speak for others but the general perception is that no one in their right mind goes in the woods during deer season. Thats just the way it is.


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## Shenandoah

maura said:


> Joe,
> 
> Please look at the link I posted earlier.
> 
> Except for the 4 counties in NoVA with a special late season for does only (Loudon, Fairfax, Fauiquier and Prince William) the longest regular firearms season is two months. (That's in Chesapeake, Suffolk and VA Beach) The rest of the counties are anywhere from two to seven weeks.
> 
> I think we can assume from that the NoVa counties have a big pest deer problem.


This is really a big deal for me. Our regular season runs November 19 - January 7 and then late season January 9 - March 31. (Loudoun County)
That's almost 4.5 months I have to get decked out in orange or stay off the trails.
Fortunately it's only the first few weeks I really worry. There are always a few who try to hunt illegally on the land. After that they discover the property owners are truly enforcing it, and word gets around. Then we mostly only see the few who have permission to hunt there, and they are a pleasant, respectful group. It's still a hassle to put all the orange on (I use orange polo wraps, orange saddle blanket, orange tape on the bridle, and orange vest), but at least I can get out.


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## Joe4d

maura said:


> Joe,
> 
> Please look at the link I posted earlier.
> 
> Except for the 4 counties in NoVA with a special late season for does only (Loudon, Fairfax, Fauiquier and Prince William) the longest regular firearms season is two months. (That's in Chesapeake, Suffolk and VA Beach) The rest of the counties are anywhere from two to seven weeks.
> 
> I think we can assume from that the NoVa counties have a big pest deer problem.
> 
> "In some form from October 1st" is technically true, but you're at very little risk riding or hiking in the woods during bow or muzzlingloading season.
> 
> You're also not at much risk from getting shot by somebody hunting with a shotgun loaded with buck shot; the relatively short range and stopping power mean that hunters are taking only slightly longer shots that with bow or muzzleloading. Now, it's still noisy in the woods during hunting season, and I still don't want to ride in the woods, but the risk of getting peppered by buckshot is pretty small.
> 
> If what you really want is shorter deer seasons, then support your local hunters - DGIF sets seasons and bag limits according to the available population - few deer, shorter season, more deer, longer season and larger bag limits.


I have read the post but dont get your point, Muzzleloaders are actually more effective and longer ranged than shotgun buckshot, and while less likely to be mistakenly shot arrows are also pretty deadly. The risk may be lessened, but not lessened more than, "No Hunting On Sunday"
I'm not the one that keeps bringing up regular gun season, I have been saying "deer" or big game season. which includes archery or muzzleloaders, and generally speaking that is over a 4th of the year, longer in some areas, shorter in others, but basically the entire fall riding season either way. nIf hunting groups need more hunting days lengthen the season. That is perfectly ok under current law. But Sundays should remain the way they are.


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## Hollabelle

maura said:


> Hollabelle,
> 
> For now, it's a moot point.
> 
> If you really want to see Sunday hunting allowed, first of all, wait for a year when the population is up and the number of nuisance/corp damage permits issued is high. Then petition the DGIF or the legislature.
> 
> That is a whole lot more likely to be effective than posting on a horse forum.
> 
> Even if you somehow persuaded folks on this board that someone else's desire to hunt took precedence over their own wants, we'd be unlikely to petition the DGIF or legislature on your behalf.


Thats just the thing, The Va DGIF is behind Sunday hunting. In certain areas there is such a deer problem that the season has been expanded from Sept 1 thru March 31. Thats a long time to hunt deer. Its called urban archery season. Chesterfield county is one of the counties that has this. The farm bureau is against it , but then again farmers can get damage stamp to kill deer any time of year, with a rifle even at night. Most of these farmers also either dig a hole and throw the deer in or shoot them in the gut so they travel a ways away to die slowly. Does that sound right to you? They dont even attempt to pick up the deer, or donate them to organizations like Hunters for the Hungary. What a waste!


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## maura

Joe, 

I have absolutely no problem riding in the woods during archery or black powder season. I have done so for years, and ride right under tree stands with hunters. If I see them, I apologize for disturbing their hunting and keep riding. The risk of a hunter making a mistake and shooting me or my horse at the range necessary for a clean shot with a bow or black powder is pretty tiny, well within the range of risk I take by riding a fresh horse out on a cool fall day. Your insistence that this is a real risk lessens your credibility as a knowledgable person about firearms and hunting,

The problem I have riding out during regular firearms season in shotgun only counties is the horse spooking from the noise. The risk of me and the horse being peppered by buckshot is pretty slim as well, though quite unpleasant and not something I want to experience. I would like one of the hunters currently posting to give us their opinion of the effective range of a 12 ga. loaded with 00 buckshot; I don't think it's terribly far. 

The real risk, IME and IMO, is riding out in the woods during regular firearms season in areas it's legal to hunt with a rifle, particulary in flat or open areas where it's possible for the shell to travel well past the hunter's line of sight. Considering all those different scenarios (bow, black powder, shotgun and rifle) to carry the same risk weakens your arguement. 

Hollabelle, 

I would be interested to know the source of this information: "The Va DGIF is behind Sunday hunting." Do you mean the current prohibition against, or the movement to allow it? And how, exactly, are they behind it?


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## Joe4d

Hunters dont necessarlity know about the guns they are using. Lots of myths and old wives tales, many are very smart and knowledgeable though. 
I am very knowledgeable on balistics, ballistic coefficients muzzle velocities I load all my own pistol and rifle ammo and have been shooting blackpowder cartridge and muzzle loaders for years, what would you like to know ?
Modern muzzle loaders shooting sabot and conicle bullets are every bit as effective as some on the older medium velocity rifles.
They are very effective and accurate out to 200 yards, I imagine with a bit of work a lot farther, There are target clubs that shoot 1000 yards with black powder loads. It is a myth that muzzle loaders are short range 50 yard muskets, When states started adopting "muzzleloading" seasons that was the case, but the technology has really exploded to make them better and better. They are great tools and need to be respected and have every bit the range of weapons of many center fire medium velocity traditional deer rifles. No they dont have the range of a 7mm mag, but they do of a 45/70, 444 or 30/30. The old standby lever action deer rifles. You can trust me on this or I can look up the external ballistics.
Since you asked, Lets not get into opinions and use some facts,
On Buckshot, most seem to agree 50 yards is usually about as far as you can be assured of a humane kill, but as I pointed out, a 00 buck pellet leaves the barrel at around 1320 fps (maybe more or less I only looked at one set of published data for some federal ammo)
it is a round ball lead ball weighs 50 grs and is 33 caliber, and looses 40% of its muzzle velocity at 100 yards. Most 00 loads have between 9 and 14 of these 33 caliber balls.
Even at 100 yards it retains about 792 fps, roughly equivalent to a 38 special fired from a snub nose revolver at the muzzle, IE point blank range.
The pellet is about half the weight of 38 special. Closet I could come up with would be A single (remember there are 9-12 in a shot) 00 pellet at 100 yards is roughly the same as being shot point blank with a 32 automatic, Not a bolt of lighning, but still potentially lethal.
You are gonna get alot more than "peppered" If someone unloads buckshot at you within 100 yards.
We obviously are on the same side, both enjoy a hunt free sunday, we both worry about different things. Im not very knowledgable about horses and I train mine to be shot off of, (blanks for mounted shooting) but I am extremely knowledgeable about internal and external firearm ballistics. Maybe thats why I worry.


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## sabowin

Wow, as a west-coaster, I'd never heard of hunting not being allowed on Sundays, and found this discussion very interesting. I grew up hiking in the foothills of Mt. Rainier in western Washington (state), have done some occasional horseback riding in the Sierra foothills in California, and now live (and ride) just east of the Cascades in Oregon.

It's been my experience that the majority of the hunters go quite a ways from civilization, whereas the majority of horseback riders and hunters stay fairly near major roads and trailheads, such that there isn't much conflict. Yes, I'm sure there's some overlap, but probably not as much as there is in VA. 

However, there is a ton of "target shooting" (read: drunk people with guns) that do shoot VERY near to civilization, and they are a much bigger risk to the general population of outdoor enthusiasts than hunters who have paid for tags to hunt animals. I have had a bullet zing over my head once (hiking as a teenager just on the wooded side of a border between woods and clearcut, where people liked to target shoot), and it's not fun, but since most people don't plan to shoot a human or a horse, wearing bright colors and making your presence known through noise is a better defense against ALL shooters than banning hunting on a certain day, which only eliminates law-abiding citizens who plan to kill game, but not the lawbreakers or those just out for target shooting.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Maura, thanks, and I'm not looking to make any enemies. Trust me when I say I have a very good understanding of the process. This year the twentieth pro-Sunday hunting bill will be introduced.....will it pass, probably not. Will it have support....absolutely. It'll have the endorsement of the Governor, Secretary of the DNR, 175,000 licensed hunters, 75,000 license exempt hunter/landowners, NRA, National Shooting Sports Foundation, Cabelas....the list goes on.

You're last post demonstrates that you have no issue with what is being proposed. Which is the safest, lowest level of intrusion hunting that exists anywhere. Joe is absolutely right, VA's hound hunting regulations make very little sense, and are more liberal with regard to trespass than any laws we have. About 60 years ago VA removed generalized hunting on Sunday in order to allow deer restocking programs to take hold. Hunters were led to believe that once populations stabilized, Sunday hunting would again resume. Today, and not one hunter has asked for it, we have 7 months of "urban archery" hunting.....that's seven months of hunting in our areas of densest population. Again hunters were beating down the door's of the GA, or the DGIF and begging for it, it simply appeared. Not one non-hunter....not even an anti-hunter opposed it. Yet we refuse to allow a private landowner the right to hunt a handful of Sundays in areas of lowest population? Come on Man!

Now, back sixty years ago when our hunting rights on Sunday were removed.....our wildlife agency director just happened to be an avid fox hunter. Some may not understand that fox and raccoon hunting seldom involves guns. (Few outside of VA, and NC will understand how big a sport chasing is in VA.) So essentially, our Governor has written a permission slip for all fox and raccoon hunters to hunt anywhere in the state.....that includes Joe's property in Surry, and your property in Central VA. What has happened is that VA, like Joe have been forced to deal with hunting dogs running free during hunting seasons. There are far more responsible hound hunters than those that are irresponsible......but it only takes one to ruin it for the rest.

Maura when I made the statement that you were inconsiderate and selfish it wasn't out of anger......I'm passionate about gaining Sunday hunting, but I'm well past the anger. If you think about it, it is both inconsiderate and selfish.....and this is why. The likelyhood that you ride any large tract lease in VA where the vast majority of the lessee's don't strongly support Sunday hunting is about nil. In my world, and I'd suspect in your's, we scratch each other's backs. To say that you would oppose a Sunday hunting bill, and at the same time use, freely, the resources of hunters that would love to have the right to hunt on Sunday is both selfish, and inconsiderate. Quite honestly, if I had strong feelings about an issue such as Sunday hunting and knew that the holders of the land that I used had a completely different opinion, I couldn't bring myself to take advantage of the privilege any longer.

What I'll take from this thread is that there are more trail riders that can't understand the position of those that oppose Sunday. Sure, the invites will be sent out, and the balance will tilt the other way. Basically, if I hadn't come here and post Joe would be a lonely fellow with no one to banter with. Sunday hunting is not a big deal.....some couldn't care much less, and some couldn't care much more. 

One day in the future trail riders will be faced with restrictions that they won't agree with. There will be a case involving a horse, and injury, and those that don't like the fact that some people strap on a saddle and force metal into the mouth of another living creature for the pleasure of riding, will join forces and fight against what you love. When it happens those that ride will need support.....where will it come from?


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## HuntSundaysinVA

I failed to mention support from the DGIF. Actually, the DGIF has always supported Sunday, they have regulatory authority over all of it. And we have plenty of it.


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## bsms

I don't know any muzzleloaders that would take a 200 yard shot. It isn't the energy that is a problem, but the drop. Someone firing at a known distance can compensate for the drop, but the guys I know would limit shots in a open area to MAYBE 100 yards. The solution, IMHO, is to redefine Muzzleloader - frankly, someone with a scope is NOT what I consider a muzzleloader, and the seasons were not defined with "modern" muzzleloaders in mind.

However, folks firing muzzleloaders are NOT the same as those who take 'sound shots' - to use an old Utah term. They like to SEE what they are shooting at.

Bows are even more limited. Handguns shoot flat enough, but I still don't know anyone who hunts with shots over 100 yards, and most plan on <50. Again, the folks using bows and handguns are NOT the 'drunk in the woods' idiots that ruin regular hunting season.


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## Joe4d

bsms said:


> I don't know any muzzleloaders that would take a 200 yard shot. It isn't the energy that is a problem, but the drop. Someone firing at a known distance can compensate for the drop, but the guys I know would limit shots in a open area to MAYBE 100 yards. The solution, IMHO, is to redefine Muzzleloader - frankly, someone with a scope is NOT what I consider a muzzleloader, and the seasons were not defined with "modern" muzzleloaders in mind.
> 
> However, folks firing muzzleloaders are NOT the same as those who take 'sound shots' - to use an old Utah term. They like to SEE what they are shooting at.
> 
> Bows are even more limited. Handguns shoot flat enough, but I still don't know anyone who hunts with shots over 100 yards, and most plan on <50. Again, the folks using bows and handguns are NOT the 'drunk in the woods' idiots that ruin regular hunting season.


You need to catch up with modern muzzle loading ammo, you are right the original laws were not written with them in mind. Just like shotgun slug only areas, Those laws were adopted with old slow heavy full diameter large cross section bullets.

Modern shotgun slug and muzzle loading ammo uses sub caliber, high ballistic coefficient sabot ammo, a quick search of ballistic data yielded a muzzle loading load with a max point blank range of 250 yards, meaning a rifle zeroed dead on at 200 yards has a high point of 3 inches at 100 and is only 5 inches low at 250,,,, Like I said perfectly effective over 200 yards, I have a 200 yard range and I can tag paper plates at 200 yards all day long with a Hawkins rifle loaded with sabots bullets. You may not consider scoped high power like muzzleloaders muzzleloaders but the state does, For that matter I can order a Whitney rifle from DIxiegun works that fires an octogon bullet that is dead on accurate out to 1000 yards, also legal for muzzle loading season. It was the sniper rifle of the mid 19th century.

My point being, while I could concede a much lower threat with Archery tackle, Muzzleloaders are still firearms and just as effective and as long ranged as many center fire rifles. Anyone that thinks other wise is sadly mistaken.

HuntsonSunday, I think you may be putting words in people's mouth. According to my sources many of the big dog hunt clubs, including ones that have land we ride on are opposed to Sunday hunting. I havent done any research to validate that one way or the other, but I would be interested in links to any reliable data you have.


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## Joe4d

oh and Huntsonsunday, I appreciate your side of the debate as well, I'm not a real eloquent writer so may come across as a little gruff, but I'm not taking any of this personal, we would probably get along well in person.


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## maura

Joe, 

What makes muzzleloading season less risky that regular firearms has to do with the multiple fire capablity, not just effective range and velocity. 
Muzzleloaders and bow hunters alike are very, very careful about taking their first shot, as they don't get a second one. Most muzzleloading hunters I know won't take a shot unless they have a full side view of the animal and a very good chance of a kill shot. When you add that to the fact that they're usually in a tree stand, shooting in a downward trajectory, the odds of their hitting a passing horse and rider is pretty darn slim. Hunting accidents occur when a hunter takes a shot he's not sure of (a "sound shot" as someone said above) and that is much, much more likely to occur hunting with a long range, multiple shot weapon. 

Joe, I'm not advocating that you ride in the woods during bow or black powder season. Do what you feel safe doing. However, I am asking that you be accurate in stating the risk. Stating that the risk is the same during bow and black powder season as regular firearms season just doesn't stand up to any kind of reasonable scrutiny. 

Hunt Sundays, if you feel it helps your case to cast me as selfish and inconsiderate, go right ahead. Your argument that I should give up riding a tract of land leased to hunters because I don't support Sunday hunting is ridiculous, and I doubt even those hunters would agree. Would you give up hunting State and National forests because the majority of taxpayers don't agree with Sunday hunting? 

The obstacle to persuading people to your point of view is that non-hunters don't want to be in the woods during regular firearms season, period. Even if you can argue that it's relatively safe, it's incredibly stressful to be riding out wondering where the next gun shot is coming from. Until you can address those very legitmate concerns, you're not going to win over non-hunters. 

As I've said previously, if the hunting Sunday is allowed, I will shrug and go on about my business, buy some more blaze orange, some bells for my horses, and make more of an effort to communicate with local landowners and hunters so I'm sure we don't interfere with other. I don't have the passion to prevent Sunday hunting that you do to advocate for it. What I do have a passion for is a well-reasoned, logical arguement, which is why I can't resist challenging illogical or contradictory statements. 

BTW, Joe4d is right on one important point - most foxhunting clubs in VA are opposed to lifting the Sunday hunting ban. Our local hunt club actually organized a group to protest at the GA one year. 

Finally, HS, if I happen to run across you in the woods, Sunday or any other day, I promise I will try to avoid spooking your game or crossing your line, and I hope you will hold your fire and avoid deliberately spooking my horse. In future, I'll avoid the area you're hunting if I know you're there. That's really the best consideration we can offer each other as we share the woods. Asking for me to advocate for your interests at the expense of my own is more than can reasonably be expected.


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## Joe4d

The Horse shot incidents, I read about wernt stray bullets they were single shots from aimed guns. Specifically aimed at the horses in cases of mistaken identity. Just as likely to occur with muzzle loaders in a stand as buckshot guys on the ground.,,, 
I still consider it an unacceptable risk, you could argue it's lowered, I dont think it is, I huinted withj shotguns, rifles and muzzleloaders, and always waited for the standing clear shot regardless of how many rounds my gun held.
Far as I am concerned is still gun season. But if you feel safe around them that is great. I dont. The current laws support both of us, I can ride out on Sundays during muzzleseason, without worry. You dont have a problem with it. The dog hunt clubs I was referring to are deer dog hunting clubs.


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## Speed Racer

HuntSundaysinVA said:


> There will be a case involving a horse, and injury, and those that don't like the fact that some people strap on a saddle and force metal into the mouth of another living creature for the pleasure of riding, will join forces and fight against what you love. When it happens those that ride will need support.....where will it come from?


Obviously not from you, since you consider it cruelty to 'force' a horse to carry humans around on their backs. :roll:

I live in south central VA. The hunters and trail riders work together, and very few of the hunters I've come across have been as arrogant and self entitled as you. Oh, you're very well spoken, but your entitlement comes through loud and clear.

You want Sunday hunting, but are unable to see the other side of the argument. Most of the hunters I've dealt with, and there are plenty in my backwater burg, have no problems with Sunday NOT being a hunting day. 

So those of us who oppose Sunday hunting are 'selfish', but because _you _want it, you should have it? Sorry Bubba, but that dog don't hunt.

I'd like to have quiet enjoyment of the trails and woods on the weekends, but since hunters have 6 days out of the week, I have only 1 day to do so. I'm not kicking and screaming about the inequity, because we all have to share the environment. But according to you, 6 days just isn't enough. You must have that 1 measly day, and to hell with everyone else.


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## maura

Let me get this straight, my pro hunting credentials are:

I allow, no, welcome, hunters on my land.

I have shared use privledges with hunters happily and cooperatively on a tract of land that I ride now, and have at multiple farms and large land holdings in the past, including those that allowed hunting with dogs on doe days. 

I have reached cooperative agreements with neighboring hunters about avoiding their tree stands and spoiling their hunting. 

I've effectively refuted the argument from another poster that it's as dangerous to be in the woods during archery and muzzleloading season as regular firearms season. 

But because I don't agree with you about hunting on Sunday, I'm selfish and inconsiderate, and your enemy? 

I think you need to work on your pitch.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Again, thanks for the civil debate. Again, I'm not interested in a "war of words". I'm passionate about our Sunday hunting expansion. I've been passionate since I was a kid. I've always had access to family owned lands, but never access to Sunday hunting on that land. Is that reasonable? I'd say not since those that fox hunt have always had access to that very land, and every other acre of land throughout the state, and on Sundays. I have absolutely no problem with any style of hunting, or method, provided it's both lawful, and ethical.

I focus on fox hunting because it was the only holdover when Sunday hunting was restricted back in 1950. What's odd is that some fox hunters oppose Sunday hunting, yet many, if not most hunt on Sundays. Not all hunting involves killing, but all hunting causes unrest. Our Sunday hunting prohibition is based on a "day of rest", but there is no minute during any Sunday when, nor where the law can enforce rest. Hunting on Sunday in VA is big.....but it's unfair. In order to hunt on Sunday in VA, the state forces you to own either fox, raccoon or bear hounds. 

Joe....there's lots of Sunday hunting that takes place on Sundays, unlawfully. You mention that "LEO" doesn't respond to calls. Brother, there are those, and it seems many are landowners, that know that LEO is short staffed, and overworked. The chance of being caught is pretty slim. Back in 2005 code 29.1-521 was revised to include what some call the landowner Sunday hunting protection language. Basically, language was added that says you can be in the woods on Sunday, where hunting takes place, and with a weapon, and it's ok. 

This is my concern, and regardless of what position anyone takes on this issue, it should be your's too, especially if you live, work, or ride in VA. Our laws allow, and essentially without limit, every aspect of hunting on Sunday, and statewide. In other words chase with hounds as much as you please, trap and kill as much as you please, and shoot whatever weapon you want as much as you please anywhere, and anytime throughout the state on Sunday, but under no circumstances is it lawful to do all three in combination. Is that reasonable? It can't be....or if it is please show me one other situation where these same conditions exist. It would be the equivalent of a state law that stated it was unlawful to trailride, but dressage horses and riders can be exercised on what would otherwise be consider riding trails.

I understand that some that don't hunt, and a few that do hunt would prefer that Sundays remain hunt free. My argument is that if I hunt my own property, and you ride your property, or public property, your Sunday will remain huntfree. Yes, there is risk that an idiots bullet will find a horse or rider, but it's never been the case in VA, and that idiot could just as likely be a non-hunter, as it could be a hunter. 

As I hunted today I reflected on time spent in the woods over the past four decades. I've never crossed path's with anyone that wasn't hunting, and only crossed path's with hunters a handful of times. As far as deer hunting, I average one shot for about every fourth or fifth outing. As far as my shooting.....it takes place almost always on Sunday, and always where I hunt. I'm not a big paper puncher any longer, but at one time I was and avid handloader. If I had a gun that wouldn't drive tacks, I didn't have it long. But as far as shooting goes, I'd say ten Sundays a year, and 50 to 100 rounds on each of those outings. If it's a skeet Sunday, that number is increased be 100. Your risk of being shot when I hunt is zero......but my shooting outside of hunting is much greater than that while hunting.

I'm in support of all outdoor activities.....I've riden, I golf, fish, hike, ride bikes, photograph nature, garden.....the list goes on, but riding, just like hunting will find it's opposition, and just like hunting, riding will need the support of friends. There will be an animal activist down the road that causes a stir, and I suspect it's already happened. I'll wager that the hunter will have your back, if you ask.

Joe...we are friends. We have a different opinion on Sunday hunting, but other than that we're on the same level. I know that what we have proposed is reasonable.....I know because 85% of all States are doing it now, and without issue.


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## Joe4d

Your last statement is presented as a fact but it is false. There have been plenty of issues as I found out rather quickly. More than I thought.
People chasing foxes on a horse in their red suits arnt the threat,
People out at midnight shooting a **** out of a tree arnt the threat,
Claiming you only see hunters in the woods during hunting season only means non hunters are afraid and stay out of the woods.
Stationary shooters target shooting arnt the threat,
People carrying a firearm for self defense arnt the threat,
It's the people intentionally shooting at large four legged brown furry objects with guns, that is the threat.
Those people dont obey trespass laws, and cops dont enforce them, and our laws are a joke anyway.
I would also be very concerned about a domino effect, allow archery and blackpowder (still a gun) on private property would lead to more changes later.
Allowing Sunday hunting because most hunters are responsible would be like doing away with speed limits and enforcement and just telling people to drive safe, most probably would but there are alot that wont,

Interesting you brought up being ok with being ok with hunting that is legal AND ethical, I have tried to avoid that issue in this discussion and only focused on the legal issue. As I see a whole bunch of ethical issues with the deer shooters in my area.

A thought occurred to me, who if anyone is actually in favor of removing the Sunday ban ?
The people renting hunting lodges, and private hunting trips, who see a way to increase profits, and the DGIF, a bureaucracy that like all bureaucracies wants to increase there size, budget, and improtance. Something selling larger number of out of state liscenses would do. I imagine the private lodge type hunts would be booked solid with people from Maryland which has alot more population density and also closed Sunday hunting. It is probably those extremly high out of state licesne fees that has the DGIF foaming at the mouth.
Farm organizations, Hunt Clubs, state senators, state reps, church groups, horse clubs, anti hunters, hikers, bikers, birdwatchers, pretty much everyone is against this,
Seems the only ones in favor are the handful that stand to make a buck.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Maura, maybe I should have asked a question instead of posting a comment? It's likely that those that lease the land you hunt are very interested in the privilege to hunt that lease on Sunday, how is your refusal to support that interest selfless, and considerate?

Yes, I very much want the right to hunt my own land on Sundays. I feel it's a right that should be a given. The right to hunt and fish have been adopted into our State Constitution. The equine community might consider doing the same? Myself, and others in the hunting community have proven a level of safety that any group can be proud of. Is it perfect....no, but it's very, very close. Are there hunting incidents that result in injury or death...yes. Are there incidents in other activities that result in injury or death.....absolutely. Are there other activities that are more dangerous than hunting.....absolutely. 

As far as the argument that we have six days, others only have one...."that dog don't hunt". Everyone has seven, but the issue is that few have access to seven. If all hunters had six days you'd never hear anything about hunting on Sunday. Imagine trailering your horses to Shenadoah National Park for a weekend trailride, and being told you couldn't ride on Sundays because others were concerned about their safety related to horses! Their bases for concern is that a horse can kill a person......but it seldom happens. Anyway, regardless of how many days we have, we all have rights. 

Maura's right, there is no reason to fear riding when archery and muzzleloader hunting is taking place. Based on VA incident records, there's no reason to fear riding during any hunting seasons. In addition there are lots of riding events scheduled throughout hunting seasons. Why would vendors put their clients in harms way? Archery and muzzloader hunting are the two types of big game hunting that are being proposed. They influence an even higher level of hunter safety because of the one-shot scenario. They influence hunters hunting from elevated platforms, or stationary ground blinds, and their record of safety speaks for itself.

How is desiring the right of use on one's own property, and no public land access selfish or inconsiderate? Hunters aren't even asking for access to 200,000 WMA nature acres that they have primarily funded.....ride those trails all you wish in a hunt free environment. This seems pretty selfless, and considerate to me....what do you think?

Speed Racer....that dog you speak of hunts nearly everywhere else in the country......he hunts and MD, NC, WV, KY and TN. Does VA have any other borders? Speaking of dogs that hunt, they hunt in VA every Sunday already.

Please except my apology if I've irritated anyone. Sunday hunting is a ticklish topic. I think most have agreed, if it's done in a way that influences safer hunting, it should be adopted. Thanks for the debate.


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## Joe4d

The lack of response to a new argument makes me wonder, 
What is your commercial interest ? Are you James Hazel from DGIF? Or a pay to hunt lodge owner ? 
You keep harping on the low incident rate of hunters shooting horses in VA, and I keep saying that's because horse owners stay out of the woods on hunting days,
About the muzzle loaders, do you really want me to start digging up news stories about accidental muzzle loading shootings ?
Saying there is no reason to fear them is dead wrong. Like I pointed out all the horse shot cases I read were from a single aimed shot at the horse, not stray bullets. All cases of mistaken identity. Something just as likely to happen with a muzzleloader as a rifle or shotgun,

You may think most agree , but you would be wrong I really cant find any large group of people that support this. Show me some valid numbers and surveys? You cant because they dont exist. 
Even if you could do it in a manner that would influence safer hunting, I dont (I cant speak for most) have any faith you can,

Your example of the shenedoah parks confirms my suspicion that your agenda is to open all land to sunday hunting, Public and Private. Or maybe you do truely want to keep it on private land only. That way you can charge people and increase your profit. Public land open on sunday would eliminate your monopoly and cut into your profits.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Joe....I assure you my only interest is to access my own land to hunt on Sunday. Goggle Sunday hunting in Virginia, and you'll find a survey of hunter's opinions on the topic from 2005 conducted by the DGIF. The majority of hunters want Sunday hunting.....I believe the number was 66%. The majority of those polled want hunting without dogs. Today, the number of supporters of Sunday hunting is about 85%. That increase is based on the endorsement by the Governor, Sect. DNR, DGIF.....plus national organizations. 

I have absolutely no interest in hunting on Sundays on non-private property and/or hunting anywhere on Sunday with dogs. I have no right to hunt lands that we all pay for through our taxes on Sundays as I see it. I have no ability to control where dogs would hunt, and therefore I feel I have no right to hunt with dogs. What a do strongly feel is that I have a right as a landowner to hunt my property in accordance with game regulations anyday of the week, including Sundays. I feel just as strongly that you have the right to ride horses on your property any day of the week including Sundays. When we both do what is our right, we don't interfere with the other's right.....wouldn't you agree?

Joe, please understand, when I hunt, and when those that I know hunt, we get away from the "ridden trail". I don't want to hunt in anyone's back yard. I don't want to hunt in the shopping district of any town.......but I could. Saturday is the busiest day for the vast majority of us all. More trail riding takes place on Saturday, and so does more hunting.

I could find two documented cases where a horse was shot by a hunter. There are cases when they authorities suspected it was an act committed by hunters......and it likely was a hunter, that turned criminal. The case in MI, where an 89 year old man shot a white horse that was being ridden by a girl. I hope they placed this man, regardless of his age, in prison for the maximum term allowed. I hope that they confiscate his property and auction it off to make restitution. I hope that this man will never have a right to own, shoot or hold a firearm ever again. I hope that this man never is allowed to hunt again. The Assateaque Island incident......do the same with this guy. If I were hunting at that time, and had knowledge of what happened, or gained knowledge after the fact, I would inform the law myself (yep I'd turn him in myself), and yes I'd testify against him. The case in KY where the teenagers shot the three horses.....were these boys hunters, or were they killers? They were heathens. Burn them at the cross, and I'll provide the fuel and matches.

Joe, I've hunted yearly for 40 years. This year, during general firearms season, I'll hunt, as always, with hounds. Our group will meet early, and share breakfast, and stories. We'll discuss how we'll hunt. Always, during our hunt discussion we consider our ability to hunt on our own property (keeping the dogs confined to the property), the risk that our activity poses to others as well as ours own risk. The safety of others, as well as our safety are most important. Our ability to enjoy our activity without intruding on our neighbors is most important. We'll gather in groups and ride to where we'll hunt as a way to increase safety for other motorists. Those that take hunting stands will walk to their assigned stands. Once we are seating, and only after we survey the area and determine that it's safe will we load our weapons. If we find that it's unsafe, for any reason, we'll call the hunt immediately. Typically we don't find safety issues that cause us to call a hunt, but we all have that responsibility. After the hunt is concluded we'll unload our weapons, and walk out of the woods. If we've had the good fortunate of killing any deer, we'll immediately register the kill, by phone, with the DGIF, and then load our kill where the public would not have to be exposed. We'll take the deer to our facility to be processed. We donate about 25% of our deer to "Hunters for the Hungry". We actually set aside monies to pay the deer donation processing fee.

Joe.....I haven't touched on it, but I have to say, some of your comments hurt. Are all hunters fine people....no. Are all hunters trespassers.....no. Are all hunters dangerous......no. Your comments have basically charged and prosecuted all hunters as trespassers, law breakers, horse killers, and dangers to society......which is not the case by far.

My agenda is to access Sunday hunting on my own property....that's it. I don't hunt public lands.....to do so would be selfish on my part. Over these decades I've been partial owner of several thousand acres year in, and year out. The last time I held a National Forest Stamp, or State Forest Stamp was years ago, and it was bought for fishing reasons.

No hidden agenda my friend. In fact, I wrote Senator Petersen last year and asked him to add language to his bill that would exclude public property access. I have no interest, nor do I feel it's reasonable to hunt public lands on Sunday. With regard to public lands, I support the argument that hunters should have access one day but not both.


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## maura

This will be my last post in this thread, as I suspect I am wasting my time and energy. 

HS, I will make sure to tell the people who hunt my land that according to you, since I don't support hunting on Sunday, I'm selfish and inconsiderate and that they should find a more reasonable landowner's property to hunt. 

You're expecting me to advocate for something that has no possible advantage to me, and that I perceive as a disadvantage. Nothing that you say, and no name that you call me, is going to convince me that allowing Sunday hunting is somehow a win for me. Advocating for something that puts you at a disadvantage is contrary to human nature and good sense. 

Your argument that I should be for this because you and other hunters are for it is ridiculous. You're advocating for your own self interest, nothing more and nothing less. There's no "greater good" here. I don't have a problem with self interest, that's fine. But I do have a problem that because I won't take your side you characterize that as selfish. I'm not even advocating *against* you, just refusing to fight for you position. The "If you're not for us, you're against us" is the mentality of a zealot. 

If you're hoping to persuade others to your point of view, I think you have some work to do. 



> I think most have agreed, if it's done in a way that influences safer hunting, it should be adopted.


I'm not aware that anyone has agreed to this. And I was unaware that anyone had made the case that allowing Sunday hunting somehow influences safer hunting.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Maura, please accept my apology for causing you to misunderstand my post. 

You posted that you were given riding privilege on a large hunting lease tract. you also posted that you opposed Sunday hunting. I don't recall ever mentioning that your land, and the relationship you share with hunters that access that land.

The point I intended to make was that you were given an incredible gift in riding access to land resources by a group of hunters that very likely would love to have the right to hunt on Sunday. It would be nearly impossible, statistically, to have any deer hunting organization within the Commonwealth today, where the majority of those members would not highly desire the choice to hunt on Sundays. My point was that your opposition didn't consider the desires of those that gifted you with this riding privilege. 

I'm not suggesting that anyone that opposes Sunday hunting grant hunting access on their property on Sunday, or any day for that matter. If you choose to grant hunting access, you have gifted the hunting community, and we all are thankful for that.

When, others that oppose equine activities begin to get serious about restricting public land horse access, the horse community will be able to look to the hunting community for support. Our activities have such close ties, and we do truly benefit from one another.

Your posts that you have no problem riding during archery, and muzzleloading seasons are an endorsement of sorts of these methods of hunting. We're proposing only archery, and muzzleloader big game hunting.....so what you've said is that safety isn't the issue. Thank you for being straightforward.

What saddens me is the fight between hunters and a handful of equine enthusiasts. I believe Joe created this thread. His concern originally was the road hunting, dog running, trespassing, deer shooter in his community. That's a concern for any responsible hunter, but is it reason to say no to the hunter that doesn't do it this way? This proposal removes all of the element that he's concerned about. Now, the issue is that this is just a stepping stone, and with a hidden agenda.


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## Joe4d

HuntsonSunday, 
You continue to make things up. None of your arguments are supported in fact. Many huntclubs have come out against Sunday hunting.


quote "The point I intended to make was that you were given an incredible gift in riding access to land resources by a group of hunters that very likely would love to have the right to hunt on Sunday. It would be nearly impossible, statistically, to have any deer hunting organization within the Commonwealth today, where the majority of those members would not highly desire the choice to hunt on Sundays. " quote

This is a completly bogus statement. Now you are speaking for people you dont even know nor have you talked to ?
So a government bureaucracy with money to gain conducts a survey of only 5000 hunters that THEY picked? and you think those results lend any credibility to your argument ? 

Since facts dont support your cause you have basically just resorted to making things up. You wont even identify yourself or your connection to those who stand to financially gain from this measure.

Fact: The state constitution allows the general assembly to regulate hunting. Sorry about that but it is a crappy amendment. So no rights.
Fact: VA Trespass laws are weak and existing ones go unenforced
Fact: Horses get shot by hunters by mistake/negligence,
Fact: I am afraid to ride during deer season.
Fact: It is a well established political tactic for those trying to change a law to try to change it in steps,
Fact: The majority of State reps do not support this issue,

I dont see any of the above facts changing anytime soon. As long as the No sunday crowd stay vigilent I dont see this happening. I just dont get the impression your side has the numbers. I dont know and unlike you I am not gonna claim any numbers or advantage. I do know I havent talked to anyone, rider , non rider, hunter, non hunter, that doesnt thing the status quo is a pretty fair setup. That could just be the circles I travel.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Joe please! You can't argue that I should have the right to hunt my own land on Sunday. You can site all the issues you want.....hunting my own land wouldn't affect you. You do realize that we all have the ability to comprehend? If dogs, deer shooters, and trespassing is as big an issue as you say, you would have become involved locally. Sunday hunting, and the hunter that wants it are easy targets. That's changed.

Joe research the risk of being killed by a horse. If hunters used your same approach, we'd all be scared of horses.

Please, research both sides, not just the side that favors you.

I admire your conviction, but your argument is lacking.


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## kitten_Val

_*Just a reminder to stay on track and not going personal in your responses. Please, read Etiquette Policy http://www.horseforum.com/horse-forum-rules-announcements/conscientious-etiquette-policy-6069/ !
*_


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Joe, I was notified that my post was inappropriate. Sorry Man!


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## Joe4d

Actually I can and have argued you dont have the right to hunt your own land on Sundays. It is your land but it is the public's game animals. The constitution specifically states that general assembly may regulate hunting. If you had the legal right to hunt on Sundays we wouldnt even have this thread. There would be a simple court case.
I did research risks of horse and hunting, Right after you made the totally false claim unsupported by any data that riding a horse was more dangerous than hunting. Scroll back for the "facts" and actual data.
You hunting your land most likely wont affect me, but I have no idea since I dont know where your land is. But we wont have a "only you can hunt on sunday law" It would be a state wide change and that would affect me. The trespass and dog deer hunting would only be a major issue to me if the Sunday ban was eliminated.
My arguments have been supported by facts, an extremely small segment of Va residents have voiced a desire to change this law. I have just got another State Senator to state opposition to the change and the list is growing. 
I can read the constitution, nothing in it convinces me or any court so far that you have the legal right to hunt on Sunday. Failing another constitutional amendment the General assembly decides based on a simple majority rule.


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## Hollabelle

maura said:


> Joe,
> 
> I have absolutely no problem riding in the woods during archery or black powder season. I have done so for years, and ride right under tree stands with hunters. If I see them, I apologize for disturbing their hunting and keep riding. The risk of a hunter making a mistake and shooting me or my horse at the range necessary for a clean shot with a bow or black powder is pretty tiny, well within the range of risk I take by riding a fresh horse out on a cool fall day. Your insistence that this is a real risk lessens your credibility as a knowledgable person about firearms and hunting,
> 
> The problem I have riding out during regular firearms season in shotgun only counties is the horse spooking from the noise. The risk of me and the horse being peppered by buckshot is pretty slim as well, though quite unpleasant and not something I want to experience. I would like one of the hunters currently posting to give us their opinion of the effective range of a 12 ga. loaded with 00 buckshot; I don't think it's terribly far.
> 
> The real risk, IME and IMO, is riding out in the woods during regular firearms season in areas it's legal to hunt with a rifle, particulary in flat or open areas where it's possible for the shell to travel well past the hunter's line of sight. Considering all those different scenarios (bow, black powder, shotgun and rifle) to carry the same risk weakens your arguement.
> 
> Hollabelle,
> 
> I would be interested to know the source of this information: "The Va DGIF is behind Sunday hunting." Do you mean the current prohibition against, or the movement to allow it? And how, exactly, are they behind it?


http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/sunday-hunting/board-official-position-sunday-hunting.pdf
you can view it for yourself here on their website. All I ask is to make your own educated stance on this issue. Try not to fall into the assumptions of others. We are one of only 11 states that do not allow Deer hunting on Sunday, I added the deer part because it is not illegal to hunt on sundays, as long as you are Fox hunting ( from horseback), **** hunting, or trapping. Read what they have to say and give it some thought, do some research. If it works for all the other states why can't it work for us?


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## Joe4d

There are a couple major issues that need to be addressed before it could "work for us". I pointed out those long ago. Va is different than other states.
The other states tend to have much shorter deer seasons, SOmewhere in VA deer season runs from oct to march, with gun seasons running from Nov-jan.
Most states dont allow the type of deer dog hunting and road hunting we have here. SOme of which I know is illegal but completely unenforced.
I have hunted and lived all over the country and have never seen the lack of respect both legal, and uneforced illegal, for property lines that I have in my area of Virginia.


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## kitten_Val

Actually, Joe, in MD it's Sept till Feb. Not much of different than VA. Just saying... :wink:


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## Iraqandback03

Joe4d said:


> I did research risks of horse and hunting, Right after you made the totally false claim unsupported by any data that riding a horse was more dangerous than hunting. Scroll back for the "facts" and actual data.


Hunting is the third most dangerous sport in the US:
Horseback Riding Ranked Third Most Dangerous Sport in the World - Associated Content from Yahoo! - associatedcontent.com

Maybe we should prevent the toll on society and the pain suffered by US citizens due to evil horseback riding by banning it on Sundays. Of course I say this with toungue in cheek. It is the same argument that Joe4d is making against hunting.

Hunting is by far one of the safest sports in America. You are way more likely to injure someone else or yourself driving to go hunting, hiking, or riding. For that matter you are more likely to be struck by lightening than to be injured by a hunter.

When you say that hunters do bad things you have to admit that they are criminals doing criminal things, not hunting. We don't say that a bank robber is banking when he goes in to rob a bank or a shop lifter is shopping when he steals a watch from the department store. When a criminal breaks Virginia's hunting laws he is a criminal not a hunter.

Joe, you are an anti-hunter pushing an illogical unsupportable agenda. If you have a Senator that is willing to continue to suppress freedom and property owner's rights within our state I really wish you would identify them so his or her constituents can know who the oppresor is.

We have a vote coming on November 8th and we need to know who the wolves are in sheep's clothing.


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## Joe4d

The reps and senator's voting records are public record. Look em up it isnt hard nor are any secretive about their opinions. Or hiding in sheep's clothing. 

Likelyhood of injury isnt really relevant, everyone injured riding a horse was on the horse voluntarily, No hunter is being forced to hunt only in a riding arenas or dont hunt, But pass Sunday hunting and riders will be forced to ride in hunting areas. Even those that stay on their own posted property. 

I have openly stated my opinion, stands , affiliations, name, location and interests in the matter. So far the agenda has been very supportable. 

All of which have been clearly presented for anyone that wants to read. I don't see anything farther to be gained by continuing this discussion especially with people that seemed to have joined the forum for no other reason than to argue the issue. 

The purpose of this thread was to alert the horse riding community about an issue that may be important to them. I feel it has served its purpose.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Joe, I understand that you fear being shot while you ride. I read it enough in the horse community forums to believe that the fear is genuine. Hunting for forty years right in the middle of all the greatest risk gives me confidence that hunting is generally very safe. But, I've also researched the actually risk enough to know that it's "true" risk is ultra low. Your fear is something that should, and can be addresses through education, and communication. I'll touch on fear in my last paragraph, so please don't go away!

You asked for data, and this is directly from the U.S. Safety Council. 

Injuries per 100,000 participants:

Horseback Riding 465 per 100,000
Hunting 8 per 100,000

Hunting injuries by nonparticipant per 100,000-.001

Now, I won't share the injury numbers caused by horseback riding to the nonparticipant......you might want to think of that as an "ace in the hole".

I know your argument will be riders don't ride during hunting season.....but quite often they do. In fact, many ride and hunt at the same time. But the figures above include all activities, during all hours, of all days as they relate to hunting caused injuries, not just riding.

The 6:1 compromise is one you wouldn't likely support is it was forced by law. Would anyone actually agree to no access for six days in exchange for a hunt free Sunday? I very seriously doubt it.

Joe, what you, and all those that tearsure their riding privileges might want to fear more than risk of injury caused by the hunter is your argument of risk without substantiating data. In other words, if the legislature of VA fails to lift Sunday hunting prohibitions based soley on fear that a rider will be shot, that very same foundation for argument could be used effectively to restrict horses riding privileges, especially on public lands. It would be quite easy to establish that hunting and horseback riding pose risks to other outdoor users. Though very rarely, horses have been known to kill people, people's pets, other animals and other horses. It could be argued that hunters have injured, and killed others by accident, but horses have injured and killed with intent. So if fear of injury or death by hunter is found to be a legitimate basis to ban hunting, it would have to also be a legitimate reason to ban riding horses. Your exact agrument against hunting may very well be used against horseback riding if your not careful. Sure, the "fear factor" may keep hunters in VA from hunting on Sunday, but it may cause the removal of riding on Sundays as well.

Maura said it best.....the issue isn't hunting......it's Sunday. Therein lies the issue of "Constitutionality" of the regulation.


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## Hollabelle

Joe4d said:


> There are a couple major issues that need to be addressed before it could "work for us". I pointed out those long ago. Va is different than other states.
> The other states tend to have much shorter deer seasons, SOmewhere in VA deer season runs from oct to march, with gun seasons running from Nov-jan.
> Most states dont allow the type of deer dog hunting and road hunting we have here. SOme of which I know is illegal but completely unenforced.
> I have hunted and lived all over the country and have never seen the lack of respect both legal, and uneforced illegal, for property lines that I have in my area of Virginia.


The only places in Va that you can hunt after the first saturday in january are places that have urban archery, these places include the incorporated city limits of Colonial Heights, Danville, Emporia, Franklin, Fredricksburg, Hopewell, Lexington, Lynchburg, Martinsville, Radford, Richmond, Staunton, Suffolk and winchester, The towns of Altavista, Amherst, Blacksburg, Blackstone, Christianburg, Farmville, Halifax, Independence, Kenbridge, Pearisburg, Pulaski, Richlands, Rocky Mount, Saltville, Stuart, Tazewell, and west Point, and the counties of Chesterfield, Fairfax and York. 
The reason the game department has done this is because there is a major population problem in these areas. The only legal method to take a deer is with archery tackle. Most of these places have restriction and you cannot shoot a gun at all, example is chesterfield county. So no gun season or hounds at all for them.
Oh and this is straight from the game book and feel free to look it up.
I have been riding horses for 22 years, hunting for 6. I have never had a problem riding at all, even on hunt club land, wear your blaze orange and be respectful, that's all we were asked, and the hunters ran dogs too, always notified us before hand so we were prepared. The few hunters that are as Joe has stated have given the rest a bad rap, its kinda like saying that all drivers are drunks and kill people, or that all pit bulls are human killers, even that all horse riders are snobs. Seriously? Why does this nation find it neccessary to stereotype?


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## kitten_Val

I'm speaking for MD only, but I'm personally concerned not just about shooting as that park will be CLOSED on Sun for everyone but hunters (which is already a case for other days). One of the parks I go to is closed completely for hunting 4(!) days/week including Sat(!) Sept - Feb. That's quite a bit, isn't it?


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Hollabelle, thanks for sharing that. I know that riders can benefit from hunters, and that hunters can benefit from riders, because I've experienced it firsthand. We shared property with a rider, and he allowed us hunting rights on his. It was win-win, and all it took was a little respect, communication and cooperation. 

You're right about most of what you've posted....except that Chesterfield does offer a gun/dog season from 11/19 thru 1/7. The deer population in Fairfax, Fauquier, Loudoun and Prince William is apparently so high that these areas actually have a late firearms season from 1/9 thru 3/31. I'd wager that there are as many horses stabled in Fauquier and Loudoun as there are in any two counties in the State. I don't recall these seasons being opposed by anyone.

If I rubbed anybody the wrong way I'm sorry. I'm passionate about my right to choose what legal activity can take place on my property. It's obvious that we all are.

I hope many were able to get out and ride today.....it was beautiful. I hunted this afternoon. I saw a couple of fawns play around for about 15 minutes, so my hunt was a complete success.

Ride safe, and ride often.


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## HuntSundaysinVA

kitten...that does seem unreasonable, but I don't know all of the factors. Like I explained in our pm's, VA allows very restricted park hunting, and it's all based on herd management needs. That's one of the reasons I haven't lobbied for Sunday hunting on public land, including our Wildlife Management lands. MD is a smaller state, with a pretty high population....so I'm guessing there's a much different set of circumstances. 

Is riding permitted at Andrews or Pax N.A.?


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## its lbs not miles

I love to hunt and I love to ride. Ok, so I love riding more ) , but "bambi" and his family members are very tasty and better for me than beef ) (also Thumber's family and all there little furry friends)

Anyway, you folks in VA are lucky. Wow, you endure a whole 3 months. Our season runs from Aug through New Years Day. You can hunt with anything (provided the cal. is large enough...no small cal.) from openning day to closing. Every day (except on WMA land...they restrict Sunday), with a 2 deer per day limit (so it's not like everyone just stops if they get one kill).

I allow deer hunting on my land. I have a lovely area, with tree stands, that is an absolute ordeal to reach on foot, so no one is going to ride anywhere near it. Visability with the brush is about 50 yards at most (if you're lucky). So all rounds go into the ground if you miss. And yes, there are about 5+ deer taken in that area each year.

The bad part: I have to spend the first 4 months of the 9 good months we have for riding (Sept - May....to hot to enjoy a day riding June-Aug) talking loudly to my horse. Not just to let hunters know I'm around (and hope they are safe about where they shoot...rifle bullets travel long way), but to hopefully scare off any deer ) which doesn't make me popular with a lot of people, but they can always hike deeper into the woods where no one is going to ride (hard enough to walk there)
Of course, by the time the season is over my horse is very tired to hearing the same stories (they're one way conversation and I run out of new material in about 3 weeks) ) I could always sing to her I guess, but she'd probably like that less (I'm certain anyone who could hear me would).

Anyway, the point of the story is that people are going to hunt. Doesn't really matter what day, because everyone wants to enjoy their day off doing what they like (hunting or riding in this case). So you find ways of dealing with it. To deal with the hunters who insist on hunting close enough to where people ride I make a lot of noise (scares the deer too). So far it's worked pretty well.


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## Shenandoah

Hollabelle said:


> The only places in Va that you can hunt after the first saturday in january are places that have urban archery


There is a late anterless-only firearms season in the counties of Fairfax, Fauquier, Loudoun, and Prince William which runs Jan 9 - March 31. That's in addition to the regular season Nov 17 - Jan 7.

Deer


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## kitten_Val

HuntSundaysinVA said:


> kitten...that does seem unreasonable, but I don't know all of the factors. Like I explained in our pm's, VA allows very restricted park hunting, and it's all based on herd management needs. That's one of the reasons I haven't lobbied for Sunday hunting on public land, including our Wildlife Management lands. MD is a smaller state, with a pretty high population....so I'm guessing there's a much different set of circumstances.
> 
> Is riding permitted at Andrews or Pax N.A.?


I find it quite strange for the DC area. Western MD I have no problem with - big parks and not too many people. Again, EVERYTHING I'm saying is applicable to MD. I'd think DC area part of VA should be somewhat similar to MD. 

What I'm trying to say is supporting or being against the hunting on Sundays in _*certain area*_ (which also differs within the same state) should really depends on all circumstances for the hunting in that particular area. For all of us it's nearly impossible to judge unless we live in that particular area and know all facts. :wink:


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## HuntSundaysinVA

Kitten....I agree, each area and situation needs to be considered individually. I have no interest in hunting in an area full of people, whether they're hunting or not. Just has never been my "cup of tea". I've always lived in the suburbs, and have always traveled away from the population to hunt.

I'll try to put in perspective what the VA hunter who supports the expansion of Sunday hunting is seeking, and hopefully it will bring greater understanding to the issue.

Hunting on Sunday in VA is quite legal, and always has been. Shooting on Sunday is quite legal, always has been, and see's very little restriction. In many counties it is unlawful to hunt with a high-powered rifle, but it wouldn't be unlawful to shoot that rifle while not hunting on any day, including Sunday. Our law even states that a hunter can be in a place where hunting could take place, and with a firearm on Sunday, and not be in violation of Sunday hunting regulations. Some say that this revision was adopted so that landowners would have a "legal loophole" to use if they were caught hunting on Sunday. In other words, unless a kill was found, there'd be no way to prove they were hunting. There is lots of hunting that takes place on Sunday, most is lawful, but some not. Some folks so strongly disagree with the regulations that they feel they have the right to hunt regardless of what the silly law says.

Yesterday in Virginia it was lawful to hunt about a dozen different species, it was lawful to shoot as much as you please, and it was lawful to hunt with hounds throughout the state. It was unlawful to hunt only 6 of the 22 species where hunting is regulated.

Hunters that seek Sunday hunting are not asking that hunting on Sunday be legalized.....it's been legal longer than any of us have lived. We're simply asking that our regulations offer equality throughout the hunting community. It's sort of like having laws that say it's ok to ride on Sunday, but only English tack can be used. That would pretty much eliminate trail riding for lots of people. Or, like with hunting in VA, it would influence huge growth in the type of hunting that's allowed......fox, and raccoon. Years ago fox hunting was primarily done in traditional style and on horseback.....and still is. Because of the Sunday fox hunting access, we've seen tremendous growth in the fox hunter that hunts from a vehicle, and uses gps, or tracking collars to monitor their hounds. I'm all for it, provided it's done in accordance with the law, and with respect to all others.

Our laws force those that want to hunt on Sunday to own hounds, or hunt on preserves on a fee basis. I find it unreasonable that any government could have the power to force dog ownership in order to comply with any regulation, especially Sunday hunting regulations. I find it unreasonable that any government would allow the act of bird hunting, but only on fee based preserves. Why couldn't I do that very same act on my own property? 

In summary, all we ask is for regulation equality.....and only on private property. I'm confident that's something that should be granted under our form of government.


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## vacowboy

The only problem with joes arguement is that he is probally a non hunter. Everyone has to look at it from both sides of the table the average working person works monday thru friday 8 to 5 therefore only giving them one day to hunt but at the same time its giving the horse people and bird watchers only one day to enjoy their time in the outdoors if knowing who hunts where you ride or where ever you bird watch find out where people hunt and stay out of that area simple as that!!!!!!!!


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## Joe4d

My hunting status is irrelevant. Something you have no information on and really dont have any business saying what I am or am not. Not that it has anything to do with this discussion. My position on hunting in general has nothing to do with the validity of the facts and opinions I have presented. Unlike some on the other side that hide behind fake names and wont disclose the fact they have a financial vested interest in changing the status quo. I have made it clear I am very anti sunday hunting. If you read through the posts, you will see your suggestion to, "find out where people hunt" is the problem. People hunt anywhere and everywhere, there is no respect for property lines and very weak trespass laws as well as non enforcement of the road hunting and weak laws we do have. Also the non hunting outdoor people have every bit as much right to access the public land. Currently you can hunt 6 days a week including all holidays. As you mentioned many people work M-F. The current system allows hunting on half the weekend days, (pretty fair) and all holidays. Actually kinda unfair using your 50/50 logic. 
There are more than enough days to hunt, adding a few more is wrong.


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## Iraqandback03

vacowboy said:


> The only problem with joes arguement is that he is probally a non hunter. Everyone has to look at it from both sides of the table the average working person works monday thru friday 8 to 5 therefore only giving them one day to hunt but at the same time its giving the horse people and bird watchers only one day to enjoy their time in the outdoors if knowing who hunts where you ride or where ever you bird watch find out where people hunt and stay out of that area simple as that!!!!!!!!


EXACTLY! I too had him pegged a dozen pages ago. There are anti-hunting elements out there that are pretending to be "against Sunday hunting" while be disenginious and hiding the fact that they don't want any hunting the other 6 days of the week either.

What the PETA and HSUS types realize is that this is a battle not for hunting today, but the status of hunting in Virginia 20/30/40/50 years from now. I'm a father of 4 young children and I can tell you that kids today are pulled away from the woods by sports and school. Gone are the days taking your gun in the car to school and going straight into the woods after school gets out. Kids today have hours of homework that has to be done AFTER practice.

The anti-hunting extremist crowd knows that making certain access to the woods continues to be restricted that every year we will continue to see the decline in participation as yet another family tradition dies.


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## twh

I didn't read thru the whole thread, but as far as I can understand, the facts are these:

1. Sunday hunting currently is illegal in VA. 
2. The hunters in Joe's area can get pretty unsavory and irresponsible. 
3. They are considering abolishing the ban on Sunday hunting.

Am I correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d

sorta, actually the "they" seems to only be pay to hunt landowners, and the dept of natural resources waving around a rigged survey both of which stand to have significant financial gains. I really havent come up with any groups of any number that even want this. My intent of this thread was to alert people to changes being pushed by a very small but vocal minority. The issue tends to come up every year and it tends to be quickly canceled. Hopefully if we stay vigilant it will stay that way. Pretty much every thing that needs to be said or can be said has been. This thread must show up in a google search as we seem to get a few trolls that have nothing to do with this horse forum other than to throw what they perceive to be insults.


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## twh

Ya, I noticed the new members on this thread.

Tell us what the end decision is. When will it be decided?


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