# Next Step?



## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

thats a nice looking cob,don,t use the plastic pipe there is no weight in it and if you carried then dropped it that would scare her,a wooden pallet or small log might be better something with a bit of weight to it ,make sure its far enough behind so she dos,ent step back on to it ,have you shown her plenty of traffic thats important as well before you cart her


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i dont drive, but people at my barn do. they usually have a horse pull a tire


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

Eve is actually a Clyde/TB, not a cob...unless there's something I'm missing? And I thought of maybe using PVC because initially I'd like to drag it myself...I'll be mostly training her myself and she's big enough now that if she spooks because of it, I need to be able to drop it and calm her...then pick it back up and continue. I wouldn't be opposed to using a small log but I'd worry that a tire might bounce, no? I guess not if it's a normal size car tire being dragged in the snow. As for traffic I've hand walked her on the gravel road a bit so far, never bats an eyelash at cars passing...but it's a gravel road - not ALOT of traffic! I'll start taking her for further walks and see how she does.

Thanks for the advise! Anyone else?


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

i would go with the tire. the PVC doesnt have much weight so she probably wont even know its there. if you can get someone to help you though that would be a lot safer, especially with her size. i dont worry so much about the noise that it makes when it drags or the bouncing because these are all things that will happen with a cart. are you planning to buy a cart in the future? what we do a lot too is practice dropping the cart behind them, because a lot of times we have to unhook a horse alone, and we dont want them to spook at the sound of the cart hitting the ground, so we have someone hold them and drop it a few times every day so that they dont even flinch when they hear it hit the ground.

i dont know how you would hold what shes dragging, my thoughts is if youre holding it shes not going to feel it anyway... maybe im just thinking wrong?? 

also with the long lining do some tight turns, a lot of horses sometimes get resistant to doing tight turns once theyre hooked because of the feeling of the shafts on them. but in the pics she looks very comfortable long lining.


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

I do have an older spare tire, meant for my car, but it can be used as a training tool as well! I'm not thinking about pulling weight yet, that will come in time...but I don't have blinkers so I need her to be ok with being able to SEE what's following her. If I start by dragging a small log behind me, then she can see it's coming along with us...as soon as she's ok with that part, then I'll have no issue with it being attached to HER. I want to start with a visual, then add the tactile. Make sense kinda?

I do have an extra set of hands for the initial dragging training...but she also has 2 horses where we board and I don't want to take up all her free time. But she'll help me if/when I need it. 

I don't have a cart at the moment but would be interested in purchasing one - just don't want to put the cart before the horse! LOL (sorry, HAD to!) I'm not 100% sure that I have the skills to properly train her for this so I don't want to go and spend thousands of dollars before getting a good idea as to how she's going to react to the idea. I want to be able to drag objects behind her without a fuss and like someone mentioned earlier, ask her to drag a pallet (wood) so it has a bit of weight to it before looking at an actual cart for her.

I hear what you're saying about the noises behind them, we've done ALOT of tarp work and I have a wooden rail on my round pen that has to be dropped to get in/out and she's ok with that. I'll work on the loud noises behind her though, good idea!

Long reining she's a doll. Has walk, trot, whoa down pat, working more on back now. Haven't done it in about a month now though since we really started under saddle. Turning and such she's better on the long reins than in the saddle, been honing in on that lately. I'll start some tighter manouvers though, see how she does. She typically takes everything in stride. Even when she spooks, so far it's 2 steps sideways and a google eyed stare at whatever startled her. I'm not worried about her running off and dragging me, but it's different when you're on the ground instead of on top of them...just new to me! 

Thanks for the input, always open to more suggestions!


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

thats a good idea to let her see everything 1st, when you get a placid horse you will be surprised how easy they take to the cart,like almagron said practise turning her tight,i,m just starting a 7yr old mare thats only ever been used as a broodmare and she is the same temperament,as yours .some horses are a pleasure to train


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

if you want a cheap driving bridle to start her with a have a ton i could sell you one if you want. that way you dont have to spend a lot if it doesnt work out. 

also for a cart, when you get to it, you might want to start with one like we use to jog horses in. you can get them in wood or aluminum and you can also get them fairly cheap used. the most expencive one we have right now that we bought used is a natural wood finished one and i think it was 800 but it was in mint condition. those are also easy to get on and off if something was to happen when you first start out. they look like this:

http://www.sulkyshop.co.nz/images/challenger_jog_cart-sm.jpg

thats a more expensive brand though^^

but i know how expensive the actual driving carts can be (our racing sulkies can be quite expensive, we bought one that was like 5k, and ended up returning it because it had too much lift and all our horses starting pounding their knees when they raced!!). this would be a cheaper one to start if something were to happen. also when we break you can sit on the seat sideways when you start with your feet only inches from the ground so its a really quick way to get off. but thats just a thought for you.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

a wheel is better than a tyre to pull, as it has more weight to it. use one from an average size car. then i always move on to a pallet with wooden "shafts" attatched. plastic poles arent really a good idea, as jimmy says; and if things go wrong and they break, they can shatter with a sharp pointed edge which could cause serious injury.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

lillie said:


> a wheel is better than a tyre to pull, as it has more weight to it. use one from an average size car.


thats what we meant, i think you just have different termanology there


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

the pipe is not for weight it is for her to get used to the feel of something stiff along her sides and bumping her. I highly reccomend this step, I used some closet poles I had. If it falls who cares let it scare her. That is the whole purpose is to work out the kinks before you hitch a cart. I am sure there will be more scary things than a pipe falling. Also drop the pipe next to her and get her used to the noise. I think a tarp on her would be more scary. Get some long lines at least 30 feet and longline her. The reins should be low while training and not up on a higher ring except when pulling something. I found that in line driving I couldn't walk fast enough so my horse was not taking as long as stride and longlining my speed didn't matter and I could get her to do figure 8's and trot, walk and woe by voice. I also had a drag made but not nesseccary but it was inexpensive to do and I can trot while longlining and watch her pull it and it does make her work more. In the cart I have not trotted yet for safety as she has only been hitched 3 times and I am usually alone..So the drag has come in handy for me


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> the pipe is not for weight it is for her to get used to the feel of something stiff along her sides and bumping her. I highly reccomend this step, I used some closet poles I had. If it falls who cares let it scare her. That is the whole purpose is to work out the kinks before you hitch a cart. I am sure there will be more scary things than a pipe falling. Also drop the pipe next to her and get her used to the noise. I think a tarp on her would be more scary. Get some long lines at least 30 feet and longline her. The reins should be low while training and not up on a higher ring except when pulling something. I found that in line driving I couldn't walk fast enough so my horse was not taking as long as stride and longlining my speed didn't matter and I could get her to do figure 8's and trot, walk and woe by voice. I also had a drag made but not nesseccary but it was inexpensive to do and I can trot while longlining and watch her pull it and it does make her work more. In the cart I have not trotted yet for safety as she has only been hitched 3 times and I am usually alone..So the drag has come in handy for me


Thank you for your advise! I actually had extra hands today so I practised some long reining while my best friend pulled a car tire on a lunge line behind her horse. I warmed Eve up, made sure she was listening and doing everything I asked, which she was, then we just continued while my best friend walked back and forth around us so Eve could see the other horse pulling it without a fuss. After about 15-20 minutes of this, Eve was barely even looking at the tire as it passed both coming at us and going past us the same direction we were going. So my best friend put her mare away and came out to help me...

I had my reins through the lowest holes on my cercingle, looped the lungeline with the tire attached through the top. Put the tire to the inside and my best friend on the outside holding it taught so that Eve was pulling the weight of the tire, but it was easy as pie to let go and be free of the tire if needed. Eve didn't bat an eyelash. Just plodded along, whoa-ed when I asked, turned around nice and tight to do the same in the other direction. So we changed the tire around so it was on the inside again and went the other way...only time she moved away from it was when my best friend was dragging it up beside her again to hitch it to the other side. Even then it was 2 steps sideways, a good look, and a "oh, that thing again". 

I can't express how proud I am of her. I know we still have a long way to go, and I'm glad someone else agrees with me that something like a PVC pipe is an ok thing to use, because I think I'll have more issues with something bumping her side than the weight of what she's dragging. Her TB side makes her hypersensative to touch, which is really nice when I need her to get over, but I think it may take a little more work with regards to shafts on a cart. I'll see about dropping some logs behind/around her tomorrow and see what she does. I don't think that'll phase her in the least though...LOL!


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## equine fanatic99 (Oct 1, 2009)

my girl, Ruffles is a Cylde x QH


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Do you have a harness? She really should be pulling the weight against her chest. By your post it sounds as though you may have had the tire attached to the suricingle but not sure.


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

My car tire (without the rim of course) weighs about 10 pounds. It's meant for my NEON. We were pulling it around beforehand...my best friend was riding her horse bareback while she was helping me get Eve used to it and she was hauling it around by her hand! 

Like I said before - I'm not going to spend hundreds of dollars on a harness before I've done the desensatizing work to know she's going to take to it. So yes, I slipped a lungeline through the cercingle to make her drag 10 pounds around for roughly 10 minutes. 

Don't get me wrong, when I upgrade to something that weighs more than 10 pounds and plan to work her longer than 10 minutes with it, I'll looking into a proper harness, but for what I'm doing, I don't see it as necessary. Once I'm thinking about dragging a pallet or whatnot, I'll be thinking of how it affects her, but thank you for youir concern.


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

you could use some old car seatbelts to make a temporary breast collar


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

i also have some spare buxtons if you would(breast collar) want a cheap one


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

Well I have numerous pieces of equipment that I could use to fashion a make shift harness, and I will once I'm asking her to haul something more than 10 pounds around...but it's literally JUST the rubber off my tiny car tire. If it was too much for the cercingle, it would have moved or slipped in some way, at which point I'll rig it up better. This was literally just to get her used to something being dragged behind her, not to actually pull anything of substance around.

On the bright side, I had her in the round pen and was dropping a small log on the ground all around her and she really didn't seem to care. Behind, beside - didn't matter. It was a log and didn't require her full attention so I think she'll do ok with that part. Rode her today too, but I'll make a post in Training about that...


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Don't want to beat a dead horse just would like to help if I can. I realize 10 pds does not sound like much but a suricingle even with just using the riens is designed to put pressure and help cue the horse. So 10 pds of pressure on 1 little point is alot. With the weight on her breast she will learn more of the leaning into it and head position lower while I am thinking with pressure on her back may make her hollow out and head higher. Not sure just makes sense to me.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

i think she really should have a breast collar, so she learns to pull into it.there shouldnt be any weight on her back at all, and when you get to fitting the cart it must be balanced so there is no weight in that area. therefore, not really much point in attatching anything to the surcingle. and the "shafts" as mentioned before, should be wood. yes she needs to feel themalong her sides, and learn how to turn with them, but if plastic piping breaks breaks, you could end up with a stabbed horse. almagron N; agree about the difference in terminology between uk ans usa, ie. the wheel, but i use a wheel, meaning the entire metal center with the rubber tyre included. just the rubber trye is not heavy enough, and get scaught up to easily in rough ground, or turning over. so i use a entire wheel or a one half railway sleeper....also jimmy has given a good suggestion ie using an old seat belt to make a breast collar, if you dont want to buy one, but i would pad it out, very carefully to prevent rubbing, and also get the real thing as quick as you can; synthetic are cheaply bought,or buy secondhand.


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

I think we're losing sight of what was trying to be accomplished here...

The tire initially was just to see her reaction to having something "following" her. She didn't bat an eyelash however, so naturally, the next step is to find something that will adequately deal with some weight being added to what she's dragging. 

I'm aware that one pressure point on the cercingle is not a desired outcome, but the cercingle didn't MOVE when we dragged it behind her. Another thing you have to factor in is that she was only dragging it for 10 minutes and it wasn't fixed to her. It was looped through one of the rings and held by hand, so I could drop it on a whim had she overreacted to it. The purpose of this wasn't to teach her how to haul weight, only to see what her initial reaction to dragging something would be.

I'm not going to use old seatbelts to rig a harness for her, I have a chest plate that will do just fine. I prefer to keep my used car parts seperate from my pony training...I'm also not going to continue using something if it's rubbing her. I'm new to driving and everything involved, but I have good common sense and am able to tell when something doesn't fit or isn't working the way it should. 

Anything I use to simulate shafts for a cart will be attached in the same fashion as the tire was...able to drop it if need be, I'm not overly concerned about anything breaking and stabbing her. I'll take a look in the woods for some logs to use instead, but PVC plumbing piping is what I have at the moment.

Although I think the topic may have strayed from the original intent, I do appreciate all the advise being given...just wanted to clarify the purpose of what I was doing.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

yes, i thought that is what you were talking about; the method i originally recomended about a month or so back, on several contentious threads about breaking to drive! however, NICE that we are now agreeing. ..i do want to say to the o.p. ,regarding pulling from the roller or surcingale; that apart from the fact that the weight is on totally the wrong part of the horses anatomy , she should also be worried that the weight pulled from it could cause it to twist and pinch, and also it is putting pressure o the underside of the horse, where there should be none at all. also, if she was to try jimmy's suggestion of temporarily rigging up a breast collar using a seat belt, she would have to fix a neck strap to stop it falling down. it would really be far easier and safer, and more comfortable for her horse,to get a cheap breast collar, because to attatch it all together you will either have to sew it or knot it- sewing is too much trouble, and might not be strong enough, if you used knots to tie it to the neckstrap, you will then create pressure points to rub the horse, and once you create discomfort, you will be creating a lot of problems as your horse will acsociate pulling with pain. it is best to do it correctly, right from the start. for a cart, i would suggest a to wheeler with a low entry, so that you can get out of it to go to head in a hurry. i would also recomend always having one person in the cart at all times, and another that can go to head if the need be,


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

also want to add, that it is best to get someone to walk behind with you, prior to getting her to pull the wheel. get this person to drag a broom or rake, and then progress to a plastic feed bag with a little gravel or small stones int it. this can be shaken as you walk, to create a variety of noises. also later, once she is pulling the wheel, get another person to hit the wheel with a stick as you longrein. start little taps and then louder, start on the rubber, and when she accepts that without worry, progress to hitting the metal rim as well, lightly, but a bit louder as you go on. put variety into the sounds which your helper makes. dont do it all at once, do different noises on different days, later you can do sessions where several different sounds are made. do all stages gradually so that horse just gets used to a lot of different noises behind her. when she is going well, it is also a good idea to get her pulling the wheel over various surfaces- when you get onto the ashpalt or tarmac road surface, that rim is going to make a lot of noise. ( grating and clanging) so she needs to be prepared. after she is happy with the road sound, try her on gravel, that is a different sound again, and also so through some tall weeds or grass to get a good whoosing sound. and if you are agile going over rough ground with dips and uneven surface is good. try to aim the wheel so it goes over potholes part on hole and part out of it, so that the wheel dips and the traces will be felt against the horses side. she will also feel an uneven distribution on her chest. all of this is going to make for a horse that will not panic when the unexpected happens when you are driving, so it is well worth taking the extra time, in terms of weeks, to achieve a bombproof relaxed horse. also i would not put her into any sort of shafts, until she is bombproofed with the wheel. when she is unfazed by all of the stuff the wheel wheel gets her used to, you then move on to introducing the shafts. before i go on to shafts, i personally use 2 timbers or even straight branches cut from a tree, they need only be the length from about 6" in front of horses front leg- (dont let go past front of chest) to the horses end of rump. aim for about 2" diameter..get someone to lead at head, while you longrein, she will need help in turning left and right to begin with as the shaft will come into play against her side. once she gets that, add the wheel again, making sure that the shafts wont get caught up in anything, and spend a few sessions letting her get used to having something rigind against her sides, while pulling weight. but definately i would not even think of introducing shafts until she is unflappable with the wheel. and i strongly recomend always having an assistant with you.... also, the wheel should have a swingle tree attatched to it, which is a piece of wood tied on across the top of the rim- you will need to experiment and position it so the wheel doesnt turn over. tie it to the holes in the metal rim, so it doesnt come apart, but with enough play to let the ends move forward and back about 1". this will prevent soreness to horse, and also keep the traces apart. i carve out a notch all around the diameter, about an inch from end, to loop baling twine around which is then attatched to the traces- that way the loops dont come off, and if you have to get the wheel unattatched in a hurry, your assistant can always doit quickly by cutting the twine. also, always have a knife or scissors with you so you can cut her free in an emergency, and always have someone to assist you, especially when introducing new things.


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## lillie (Oct 26, 2009)

well, as i was taking all of the time and trouble to advise to the best of my ability with 2 posts on the subject, it seems you were posting a reply of your own. obviously you are doing just fine without my imput , so i will butt out.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I was sitting with Shay-la when she made this post, and I went on to make my own post about Jynx in the training forum and then proceeded to check this topic half an hour afterwards. There were no replies, so Shay-la post was here long before you took the "time and trouble" to write a novel.

Your suggestions are welcome and will definately be taken into consideration, but there are many ways of doing things and this one worked well. The idea of pressure being exerted forcefully on her girth area is a little ridiculous to me personally, as many horses are trained to rope which essentially equals several hundred pounds of cow hitting the end of a rope and the entire girth area of the horse taking the brunt of it. My Arab mare is trained to pull people on a sled with a rope dallied to my horn which equals most of the pressure coming from her girth area. There is nothing wrong with a horse learning to accept pressure to that area, as it prepares them for other things as well.

It was a one time thing, and we will be adding the breast collar of a saddle to Eve the next time we ask her to pull anything. The tire was light enough that I spent 20 minutes riding my Arab mare bareback and dragging it in my hand. If I have no issues dragging it through snow for 20 minutes, a 1,000 pound horse isn't going to feel much pressure whatsoever regardless of how it's attached.

We appreciate the opinions, but not being told that we're "doing it wrong". It was a one time thing with the entire purpose of it being for her to become used to something dragging behind her, not for her to feel the weight of anything. We would have used cardboard if the winds didn't make it a stupid idea. If she was better trained, one of us would have simply hopped on top of her and dallied it to the saddle horn, for virtually the exact same effect as we created. That is how I break all my horses to become used to dragging something. Unfortunately, Eve is a youngster and only greenbroke so this seemed a better method and it worked fine.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

By the original post it looked like she was asking for help as she said she didn't have any experience and wanted to know what was next. Just offering some simple tips that could be used or not and explaining why it might be revelant. As someone getting back into driving after 25 yrs and having had a few recent lessons it was nice to get all the info I could and have someone point out a few things I wasn't noticing.


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> By the original post it looked like she was asking for help as she said she didn't have any experience and wanted to know what was next. Just offering some simple tips that could be used or not and explaining why it might be revelant. As someone getting back into driving after 25 yrs and having had a few recent lessons it was nice to get all the info I could and have someone point out a few things I wasn't noticing.


thats the way i understood it as well,and although lillie does go into detaail a bit i thought the mates post was a bit ignorant towards her


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

No that's fine, we understand that. We're always open to suggestion and ideas - it's just that after explaining the why's, lillie is still acting like we've somehow harmed Eve by doing this, and I was just hoping to elaborate on why I personally don't see the harm whatsoever.

And no offense, but lillie has bombarded this topic, as well as sent Shay-la a private message with the exact same information, and then proceeds to get snooty because she didn't bother looking at the topic before replying again because she didn't reply for hours after Shay-la had posted. Advice is fine, but we're responsible, educated and experienced horse people who have common sense. I just don't see why it's necessary to continue beating the dead horse so to speak, and then getting mad when someone doesn't agree with you. lillie's advice was definately helpful on many levels, but she can't seem to move past this "you made her drag a tire with a surcingle" issue after explaining it numerous times. We don't think what we did was "wrong", so we can just agree to disagree, no reason to get uppity about it.


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

fair enough


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

**** jimmy i have to laugh because i just her a comedian go on a big rampage joke about the use of "fair enough". oh god i was funny. then you said that... hahaha. i have to find a link to it and send you it because i just went rolling when i saw that....

anyhow back on topic here....

i can see where people get this from, lillie is very.... mmmm.... set on her ways of doing things. i have experienced this is posting before in the driving section on her replies. so i can understand.

i dont think what was done was wrong. its not like you hooked her up to a cart and went with it tied to a ring on the surcingle or something. personally, when we race, the breast collar isnt even really used the way you guys use it. its just there to keep the harness from sliding backwards. they really dont use to to "pull" from. i have been in a hurry before and forgotten to put it on (myyyy baddddd) and it didnt injure the horse or anything. the only thing that really potentially happens there is that the harness slips back... THEN you are suddenly driving a bucking bronco! ive seen it! not pretty! lol. when we jog daily the breast collars are pretty loose, and they just hang there, they dont tighten when the horse begins to jog, therefore theyre really not pulling from it. 

also our the race bikes (sulkies) that we use are made so that different ones provide different amounts of "lift" on a horse. some have more or less lift than others. this puts pressure on the girth. so really, there is nothing to say shes damaging her horse by putting pressure on the girth. horses need to accept pressure on their whole bodies. 

i think what happening here is good. i dont think their damaging the horse at all.


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

Thanks, I appreciate you sharing your experience...suddenly I don't feel like the world's worst owner due to a training exersize. I know I didn't hurt her, she's a VER sensative horse and wouldn't have stood to be pinched or been made uncomfortable by the surcingle. She's the kind of horse that lets you know right away if something doesn't fit or is off. 

If there are entire racing styles that do not pull from the shoulder, HOW IS IT HURTING THEM THEN??? I can understand where lillie's coming from, make them as comfy as possible and make their job as easy as possible...but she's trying to make me think what I did that one time was borderline abuse. Nah. I know I have little experience with this, but I KNOW I wasn't hurting her, and had her best interests at heart by dragging it by hand for 20 minutes first to ensure she wouldn't spook!

I dunno...I asked for help and got FLAMED.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

I did not take it as anyone thought you were hurting your horse. My horses have been taught to respond to the slightest pressure so I would not want that kind of pressure on my horse. Mine are taught to move away from the slightest pressure. So I did not think it was hurting the horse thinking it would have confused mine which I am training for dressage and carriage driving which is way different than a light sulky. I just assumed with the style of your horse carriage driving came to mind. So none of the comments were to mean you were wrong just pointing out better ways and then you can decide which is most suitable.


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