# When Does the Horse Itself Outweigh Conformation



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I guess some of it depends on whether you're willing to retire her early if she ends up with bad arthritis (possibly early twenties), spend the money for injections or pain medications as she ages that might help her stay more comfortable, and if you're willing to do less demanding work with her if she can't do it.

My riding horse right now has some body issues at age ten, but I decided I liked him enough that I could use him more lightly if necessary, and get a harder using horse in a few years after my retired mare passes away. 

You won't know until you get her into harder work if she will compensate or not be able to handle it physically. A horse that is very athletic can sometimes compensate with the rest of their body for a weakness, and not really have it affect their abilities.

My vet told me that horses can compensate for knee issues much better than many other problems. He said he has seen horses that had very bad looking knees that just kept working soundly and doing very hard work. My mare had some pretty significant knee injuries in her mid-teens and after she recovered I kept riding her quite hard until one of the tendons started calcifying from the damage a few years later. I didn't jump her after her accident, though.

My belief is that if a horse seems to handle work without signs of soreness, then keeping them fit as long as possible is probably the best thing for them.
By the way, she is quite adorable.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

gottatrot said:


> I guess some of it depends on whether you're willing to retire her early if she ends up with bad arthritis (possibly early twenties), spend the money for injections or pain medications as she ages that might help her stay more comfortable, and if you're willing to do less demanding work with her if she can't do it.
> 
> My riding horse right now has some body issues at age ten, but I decided I liked him enough that I could use him more lightly if necessary, and get a harder using horse in a few years after my retired mare passes away.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I am the owner that has began retiring my other horse earlier than he'd probably like, just because of the worry of going too hard too long. Based off of the 20-ish times I've ridden her, her knees don't bother her at all. She is incredibly athletic and always has to remind me of that when I ride her, especially after her most recent two weeks off... My previous Arab mare had hock arthritis at 10 years old, and up until she passed, I was more than happy occasionally taking her for walks down the road or just ponying her. 

With Sheba, I think I would likely use her more for trail riding and maybe a couple of open shows a year - I am searching for a new horse to help take the load off of my other horse, as by the end of last show season, you could tell he was over it. Depending on if she is still available next spring, I will likely be writing a check and bringing her home. I haven't had this much fun riding a horse other than my Toofine in many years.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

It seems to me that you probably couldn't _not_ work with this horse...  Sometimes your heart makes your decisions for you - although it's good to try to get the head involved as well. But the heart is a stubborn beast! :Angel:


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Two things that horses can be on for infinity without issue are MSM and hylauronic acid, which Lubrisyn is a good one.

I believe in the "if it works don't fix it" philosophy ----- except in cases like Sheba ----- in her case I would start her on both MSM and Lubrisyn as preventatives. 

You would know they are working, if you don't see big changes in her knees as she ages

I would also add some flax to her diet for the Omega-3's. I use Omega-3 Horseshine but there are other brands on the market.

I have a soft spot for Arabs and Sheba is a beauty. Sheba is also a name I have not heard in many years 

I hope you have many years with her


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Just going to add - if I were a horse, I'd have been shot a long time ago by conformation purists. Offset hips, knock knees, funny spine - but I've climbed more mountains and done more hiking miles than most people alive or dead, and still do this, at my advanced age of 47 these days! :rofl: Work and exercise fixed my issues, by giving me strong muscles to support the skeletal issues, and most people would have no idea I have them.

Recent mountaintop snap:



It's a nice hobby to defy expectations. I thoroughly recommend it! ;-)


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

If the horse makes you happy, then keep her. The other stuff can all be dealt with. Knees do not look horrible to me btw. 


I will add you might want to make an offer now instead of continuing to work with her and getting more attached, especially if there is some chance of not being able to buy her.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

It's not her knees that give me pause, it's her pasterns and feet.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

It all depends on how seriously you want to either event or do endurance. Both are strenuous sports. 

I have seem far worse knees and horses stood up to working for many years.

As Bel says, you can help matters with medications to prevent things speeding up and a fitter horse will take more than one that only potters around.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Her knees wouldn't concern me near as much as her pasterns, her r fore is also a club foot and while I wouldn't rule her OUT on that alone, she has other confo issues. She may be sweet as pie but she's not a good example of the Arabian breed. Probably the reason why she isn't registered.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Her pasterns scare me more than her knees... for a pasture pet/occasional trail horse, she's probably fine if you are a lighter rider. For an endurance horse or eventer, I wouldn't chance it.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

In an earlier century I did some endurance. If I had any doubts about a horse for this sport I would pass. 
Several years ago we bought a Paint gelding for my husband. He was the most wonderful guy with really not-so-good legs. But his attitude and personality made him worth the chance...which turned out to be an excellent choice. All he had to do was be a hubby packer on short trail rides at which he excelled. We lost him to cancer and I miss him to this day.
My opinion...pick the best horse with the least possible problems for the activities you want to do. It will save you and the horse in the long run.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

As long as you aren't doing endurance or eventing for her, she should be fine. 

Conformation does not mean a horse will stay sound, unless you do x rays of everything. Just because a horse has perfect conformation doesn't mean they don't have navicular or kissing spines or some other serious problems. And the opposite is true- a horse that has bad conformation might be very sound in the long run. 

Until we can identify the genetics associated with arthritis, we cannot predict which horses will have problems and which won't. Yes conformation is a predisposition, but it is not a guarantee. Lifestyle and environmental factors play a huge roll. If you take a sound horse with decent conformation and run that horse into the ground every time you ride, you will end up with a lame horse.

You know her conformation is bad so as long as you don't over work her and consider her limitations, you may be happy with her for many years to come. Although you may want to discuss her limitations with your vet- as to finding a guideline as to what work is okay and whether you should do extra maintenance in her case. 

Set up a fund for her retirement and for extras like pentosan injections or supplements, routine x rays to monitor for early signs of arthritis later on.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Haven't read further, only initial post. The thing to remember is there is a big difference between unchangeable conformation and posture. Tho posture, if it remains the same for many years can become unchangeable. A lot of what people call 'conformation' is but a moment in time, that can be changed with different management, chiropractic work, etc.

What I see here is a horse who is high heeled. Likely also weak heeled. To lower her heels appropriately & protect(pad) the back of the foot as needed in order that she may comfortably use them, land heel first & rest on her DC's will greatly change the 'conformation' of those knees.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

They don’t look bad to me, either...unless she is bench kneed, adjust her feet like @loosie said, and she should make a decent riding horse!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> She may be sweet as pie but she's not a good example of the Arabian breed. Probably the reason why she isn't registered.


With respect, I disagree - IMO this is a far better example of an Arabian than the kinds of mutants that win led classes these days, with their benchtop backs, unsuitable leg conformation, and ridiculously overdished faces - nothing like a working Arabian. For those, I look to Crabbet and Polish lines. I love seeing Arabians like @*phantomhorse13* 's (or @*bsms* 's and his acquaintances, I've loved the photos of those) still in the gene pool - thank goodness the endurance and working lines are preserving proper, decent riding type Arabians, instead of those odious showring poodles, some of which actually have breathing problems due to their excessive dishing - and some of which have undershot jaws, genetically linked to the same breeding fashion... similar to what happens in Bulldogs, and other squashed-face dog mutants that are nothing like the ancestral (and fully functional) wolf type - poor creatures brought into existence by human vanity, and lack of biological understanding and compassion... same with the broiler chicken breed, who all have arthritis from a few weeks old because their mutated oversized muscles can't be supported by their feeble skeletons... and so many other domesticated animals bred away from the functional, healthy wild types... :frown_color: 

This is nothing personal, Dreamcatcher :hug: - I know you and I are about as far apart as they come with what we like in our Arabians - but I am a biologist by training and inclination, and I feel very deeply the pain and the wrong of the deliberate breeding of what amounts to animals with fashionable and/or profitable physical liabilities and disabilities, and its enshrining into so-called "breed standards". This is an ethical issue for me, and ultimately about animal welfare.

(/end rant)

And when I look at the Arabian presented here, I'd far rather work with her than with what's fashionable in the show ring. My Crabbet/Polish mare had two conformational issues - she was cow-hocked (but travelled straight - not such an issue, and I saw it in a lot of other endurance horses at the time), and she had the long back of the Autumn Sunshine line - that was the main issue, especially as I'm not a lightweight rider, and required me to work on her back muscles with a lot of supplementary lunging and liberty work etc, and even cart driving. But, she was a very successful endurance horse and all-rounder, and retired without arthritis after being ridden into her late 20s, with God only knows how many miles in her legs.























































That's a horse and rider who both had conformational issues - but whose conformational issues didn't stop them having a long, productive working life together...


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

4horses said:


> Until we can identify the genetics associated with arthritis, we cannot predict which horses will have problems and which won't.


Arthritis is primarily _environmentally_ produced - excessive bodyweight is one of the main factors in domestic dogs these days. In horses, it's often due to working horses too hard too early (both too early in terms of horse maturity, and in terms of the stage of training), and/or on surfaces too unyielding, and by putting excessive loads and strains on them for their constitution or conditioning. Do any of those things and you're going to _produce_ arthritis down the track, sooner or later. There are many horses with textbook conformations on the harness and TB tracks who wind up with functionally impairing arthritis before they even turn ten - because of _what people do with them_, and not because of genetic weakness.

Likewise, there are horses who retire fully sound from those pursuits, because they were worked sympathetically, and with an understanding of horse anatomy and physiology, and appropriate conditioning and fitness training (no short-cuts), and sufficient rest and recovery - coupled with good nutrition, hoof care, and an eye to a horse's enjoyment of its life.

Granted, poor conformation is one of the genetic factors _contributing_ to arthritis - but unless there is a significant deformity, probably not as much as poor nutrition, and in the majority of cases, certainly not as much a poor conditioning and general management.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

4horses said:


> Until we can identify the genetics associated with arthritis, we cannot predict which horses will have problems and which won't.


I don't agree. I dont know about genetics associated(tho I thought it was more a mechanical prob - bony changes happen when mechanics/damage is chronic), how much part that plays, but I'd say there's a very big likelihood of early & significant arthritis in that horse, IF it were left high heeled & over at the knee.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SueC said:


> This is nothing personal, Dreamcatcher :hug: - I know you and I are about as far apart as they come with what we like in our Arabians


We're actually not as far apart as you might think. I would not have said that the horses you put up in pics were "not good examples of the breed" as I did with the OP's pictured horse. That horse, IMO, is not only not a good example of Arabians, she isn't even a conformationally good horse. There's so much I don't like about that horse, but especially with her legs, for someone who wants to do eventing or endurance that I just focused on the legs/feet issues and let all the rest go. I'm NOT comparing her to today's overly extreme halter horses, just against breed standard. I freely admit I do like the look of a lot of halter horses but not so much for hard use.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

There is a genetic aspect to arthritis, just as there is for anything. Why does one hirse have sharper teeth, why does one have more sensitive skin, why is one more likely to get X. In the same conditions some horses will more readily develop pathology or disease. There's no single gene that could be identified, but you could look at lineage.
Some horses are used hard and retire with barely anything in those joints. Some are used hardly at all and are crippled by the time they are 15. It's not all conformation and care, but it contributes.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

She's slightly tied in at the knee but that isn't a huge deal for general riding. My pinto similar and the only time she's unsteady/feels 'wobbly' is going down really steep trail hills and I get off and walk. I also wouldn't want to jump her much above 2ft 6 but I didn't buy her for jumping.
I wouldn't buy a horse for eventing if they had that conformation defect.

The club foot could mean that she feels unbalanced on the lead at the canter - they'll usually choose to lead on the other leg as in counter canter and seem to adjust to doing that

The angle of her pasterns would also be my biggest worry, there's always going to be a weakness there which will make her more at risk of suspensory damage

If she's a fun horse and you like her then buy her for that but not as a horse for showing, eventing or serious endurance


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> We're actually not as far apart as you might think. I would not have said that the horses you put up in pics were "not good examples of the breed" as I did with the OP's pictured horse. That horse, IMO, is not only not a good example of Arabians, she isn't even a conformationally good horse. There's so much I don't like about that horse, but especially with her legs, for someone who wants to do eventing or endurance that I just focused on the legs/feet issues and let all the rest go. I'm NOT comparing her to today's overly extreme halter horses, just against breed standard. I freely admit I do like the look of a lot of halter horses but not so much for hard use.


It's nice to know we have some common ground here.  I do think your assessment of that mare the OP is interested in is harsh, and she does definitely say "Arabian" to me. The OP has been quite clear she doesn't want to aim _this_ horse at eventing - and after good hoof care and careful conditioning, she could certainly try her at _some_ level of endurance, and see how it goes. If it doesn't work out, the horse can go back to trails and shows as the OP suggests anyway. _But it just might work out, too._

Granted, this horse doesn't look like endurance _champion_ material, but she's not a bad little horse and has the OP's heart, and I would think the OP would be happy just competing and completing, rather than having to be some sort of whizz-bang endurance legend. Endurance at any level is fun, and many people get a lot of satisfaction from simply completing rides successfully, seeing their horses get fit and improving on their own personal bests, having great experiences in nature with like-minded people and horses, camping out, seeing the country etc etc. And I think that would actually be good for this mare to try out, since consistent exercise is really beneficial for working around physical issues, for anybody. It's just the overdoing that's a problem, but endurance is one of the best sports for ensuring people do _not_ push their horses past their capabilities.

I concur with @*gottatrot* 's assessment of the situation here. 

Here's something slightly related: I'm a biggish individual, and my husband has often bemoaned the fact that he can't simply scoop me up in his arms and carry me over the threshold etc, like they do in romantic movies. But has that fact ever made us wish we'd married someone else? Well, no - and there are so many things we _can_ do, that this thing we cannot just fades into insignificance.  

Wishing you happy riding and an excellent week, Dreamcatcher - have you got a little electric blanket for the upcoming winter in your hemisphere? Makes all the difference to my various war wounds and niggles to have a nice cosy electric blanket in the winter... :ZZZ:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SueC said:


> It's nice to know we have some common ground here.  I do think your assessment of that mare the OP is interested in is harsh, and she does definitely say "Arabian" to me. The OP has been quite clear she doesn't want to aim _this_ horse at eventing - and after good hoof care and careful conditioning, she could certainly try her at _some_ level of endurance, and see how it goes. If it doesn't work out, the horse can go back to trails and shows as the OP suggests anyway. _But it just might work out, too._
> 
> Granted, this horse doesn't look like endurance _champion_ material, but she's not a bad little horse and has the OP's heart, and I would think the OP would be happy just competing and completing, rather than having to be some sort of whizz-bang endurance legend. Endurance at any level is fun, and many people get a lot of satisfaction from simply completing rides successfully, seeing their horses get fit and improving on their own personal bests, having great experiences in nature with like-minded people and horses, camping out, seeing the country etc etc. And I think that would actually be good for this mare to try out, since consistent exercise is really beneficial for working around physical issues, for anybody. It's just the overdoing that's a problem, but endurance is one of the best sports for ensuring people do _not_ push their horses past their capabilities.
> 
> ...


My opinion may be harsh. I give it unvarnished when folks ask. I don't care if she buys the horse, I just would like her to make sure she's ok with all the possible limitations she could face. And then again, she might not face any. I used to own a pipsqueak of an Arab mare (13.1 on a LONG day) and she only had a grade 4 club because that was the worst there is. And she never missed a step and was a sure footed as a mountain goat. But I didn't sugar coat anything when I went to look at her to take her on. I looked her over hard and went over each and every single thing I found as a fault and made sure I mentally acknowledged what it could mean to her soundness over time and her ridability. She's was smart as a whip and cute as could be, had a GREAT sense of humor and never had a lame day the whole time I had her. But she could have. 

And here she is, Odbitka the day we broke her out. 










We're on a mountain overlooking the Salt River in AZ









A good look at her club. 









I have one of these for cold nights, I like it even better than an electric blanket, though I may get one of those this year too. Since I can't take anti-inflammatories anymore, I my need all the help I can get. 










https://www.amazon.com/Sunbeam-Quilted-Mattress-EasySet-Controllers/dp/B00FHW8QI4/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1541380213&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=electric+mattress+pad&psc=1


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

That's great, @*Dreamcatcher Arabians* . And I don't think anyone here was sugarcoating things, by the way. I think that is one end of the spectrum, and the opposite ends of the spectra are usually outliers when experienced horse people discuss things. One of my favourite ideas from philosophy is that the truth is often found neither in the thesis or its antithesis, but in the synthesis that reconciles the truths in both perspectives.

I like that mare, especially her transformation under saddle - great photos - thanks for posting - and wonderful story.  She reminds me of the saying: _ It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog._

And yes, for every wonderful story like that there are many stories of heartbreak and broken dreams. You err on the more conservative side than me when it comes to general horse riding, I think, but I'm a real naysayer when it comes to breeding. I was always preaching "don't breed this horse" to my birth family, who were breeding from any old mare and blind to the flaws in the conformation, which in their case was too much of a gamble, considering they wanted horses that could race ultra fast on hard tracks, and win at it.

The real irony is that they started with a foundation mare whose breed (French Trotter) actually placed restrictions on which horses could be bred from - French Trotter mares back then had to run race qualifying times at least, before they could have foals registered in the Stud Book and eligible to run - which I think is a very good idea, because there is too much breeding going on, and many harness horses never even make it to track, and then what is their fate?

And then people were bringing my family mares that hadn't made the grade, "Would you like her as a broodmare?" and they just _could_ not say no. The two gift mares had six foals between them - one of them grew up to win two country races, and then broke down with the exact same tendon weakness that had finished his dam's racing prospects as a young mare. The rest didn't make it to races, despite years of effort, corrective shoeing, etc - the other gift mare had a reasonable country career after being adopted and raced, but had a twisted front leg, and passed that on to two of her three offspring, so badly it could not be compensated for in them - the third foal didn't make it because he was trained too late and inconsistently by people who now had too many horses to do a great job on educating any of them from thereon in.

_Warning: Breeding / racing rant ahead! _

All the arguments we'd had: (me) "She's got a twisted leg!" - (them) "Well, that could have happened _in utero_, and she isn't necessarily going to pass it on!" - (me) "Yeah, but statistically she has a far higher chance of passing on a twisted leg than a mare whose legs are straight!" etc etc, and with the first mare, (me) "She's blown out her tendons, and look at her conformation, she's prone to it!" - (them) "Yeah, but the people who started her didn't condition her properly, and asked too much too early, and we're not going to do that!" - (me) "Yes, but even if you do everything correctly, foals from this mare will still have a greater chance of breaking down with weak tendons than if you breed from a mare who didn't have this trouble!" - and so it went, and despite all the best care in the world, the only foal of hers that made it to the races first broke down as a five-year-old, after winning those two country races, and never won another, even though he was brought back twice after one-year recoveries from breakdown, and raced on and off until he was eleven, for just one more second place and a few minor placings (4th or 5th) in all those years.

This from people who were officially running a business... you just can't do that. $7,300 in stakes over eleven years of training, that's not a business proposition, that's a hobby. And that was the second most financially successful horse of the eleven horses in total that they bred themselves. Classic Julian made about $12,000 in his career, but his parents were both flawless in conformation and I had no arguments about him being brought into existence. There was one more mare who made it to the track, also from two excellent parents, who made around $2,000 all up. So financially, was that whole breeding programme a good idea? Definitely not. Should these horses have been bred? For the purposes of racing, most of them, no - I'd have bred just three of those eleven.

Why am I harping on about commercially viable? Because the context was a business. I've personally never been interested in having horses as a business proposition; to me it's been a much-loved hobby - and my chosen pursuit was horse riding - mostly trail riding, endurance training and riding, dressage training, some show riding, a fair few gymkhanas, and with my main horse of the last decade, nothing at all competitive - just pure hobby riding (at endurance pace and with dressage training) - we have other priorities in our lives than for me to compete with horses, which would eliminate so much else of what we value as a couple. But, I love my horses (and donkeys).  

And one of the reasons I harped on also, is because when I was growing up and wanted to go to a competition with my mare after training hard for it, I was not encouraged - "That's just a hobby, it's not worth trailering you all over the place." So I _rode_ to a few endurance rides myself, and because of my mare's success in our junior division (won first-up _and_ best conditioned), pressure was put on my parents to give her some more outings with me, further abroad. So I had a handful more, plus some gymkhanas and shows; and later, when I was at university, and could drive the float myself, some more opportunities to compete. And the point I'm making here is that the entire racehorse breeding programme my parents undertook was not commercially viable - it cost them time and money, instead of even paying for itself - so of course I was seeing the irony of their "what we do is business" claim...

For anyone interested in how these things go:

The overall statistics from 30+ years of harness breeding and racing from my birth family...



11 home bred horses = 2 country race winners, 1 placegetter
 ...of which, 3 home bred horses that were bred from parents with flawless conformation and performance = 1 country race winner, 1 placegetter



 4 yearlings bought early on after close examination (and I liked all of these in conformation and temperament, no quibbles) = 4 race winners, 3 of them commercially worthwhile


1 yearling bought simply because she was the full sister of the most successful of the above group = not made to track (I wouldn't have bought her as she was too small; she barely made 14hh at maturity)


4 adult racehorses with issues bought = 3 country race winners, 1 placegetter after purchase / adoption

So, that was a little long... :ZZZ: :ZZZ: :ZZZ: :ZZZ: :ZZZ: 

The horses I have here now are four retirees from harness racing. Romeo I rode when I was younger; Sunsmart is my current horse, Julian will be saddle trained to take over for a bit eventually, and Chasseur is the horse who is just paddock sound after his tendon trouble (but thankfully totally so). He's a real sweetie, and the most like his French grandmother in appearance and disposition.






Left to right (at start): Sunsmart, Julian, Chasseur - when we adopted Julian last year. All of them are beautiful horses who would all have been very fine riding horses (and one of them truly is, one of them will be, but the chestnut is injured and 24). None of them made commercially viable racehorses - even though two of them are country race winners. It's a tough sport.


:runninghorse2: :runninghorse2: :runninghorse2: :runninghorse2:​

So to wind up my rather looooooooong musings this morning: It's so much easier to have a sound and totally enjoyable riding horse, than a successful horse racing at track -_ and there's so much less collateral damage_ (think: dog food). I love my riding, and encourage other enthusiasts to do the same - to work with a horse they really like, to do it sensibly and well, and enjoy it, and give the horse a long and decent life in return for their services to you - services which have to be tailored to the individual's capabilities and inclinations, on both sides - horse and human.

And @*Dreamcatcher Arabians* (if you're still awake :rofl - that pillow looks intriguing - what does it do? ...it seems that what we call an electric blanket is what you call a heated mattress pad in the US. We lie on it too...and toast... :dance-smiley05:...it's blissful in winter. When I broke my foot, that really ached - and it was so nice to get into a hot bath with a few drops of lavender oil and just soak the poor damaged thing and the rest of me. (As I had a removable splint boot, not a cast, I could do this.) I find the _Krones and Kodgers_ social thread so helpful for hints on what sort of braces and splints and techniques I can adopt to keep doing the things I love - we're all doing that, to one degree or another, and I'm only an apprentice Krone just now (with cheerleader status, they have decreed! :rofl). But I think one can never prepare too early... ;-)

Wishing you good health and happy riding, and many wins in the battles against various niggles and war wounds! :hug:​


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ApuetsoT said:


> There is a genetic aspect to arthritis, just as there is for anything.


Yes absolutely. But I just wonder how much, as environmental - management, use, nutrition etc... - seems to be the biggie here.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Genetics versus environment was discussed already, so the point of that cited post at that stage of the discussion was???? ... now read the literature! ;-)


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SueC said:


> I like that mare, especially her transformation under saddle - great photos - thanks for posting - and wonderful story.  She reminds me of the saying: _ It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog._


LOL! Sue, I read the WHOLE thing! But I did it this morning after I fed. Odie was a gem in spite of her horrible club. I would have shot myself stone dead before I would have even considered breeding her, she was a collywobbled mess for conformation, but the overall picture was cute if you didn't look too close or get too nitpicky. She had all the try in the world and a great temper. She loved riding in the mountains and racing in the dry river bottoms and running through the desert. She taught more than one kid to ride and really was joy to be around. She was great at what she did and while her potential get MIGHT have gotten her great outlook on life, they might have gotten a whole lot more that wasn't so great. She was definitely one I would not breed. 

I think part of what makes me so picky when people are asking for opinions on horses they're considering paying hard earned money for is, what do they say they want to do and now because this horse is totally unsuitable for what they want are they going to say they're willing to not do to accommodate the horse? Here we can not "send them to the doggers", we're AWASH with horses that have been sent to the kill pens where they'll be starved, made sick and then either killed or sold as a "rescue". 

Right now we're in Post Futurity Season and that means that a HUGE number of really well bred horses who didn't win, and some who did but aged out, have been sent to the low end auctions because it's time to start training the coming yearlings for NEXT year's futurity classes. So when I see someone looking at a horse who isn't suited for what they want and they're looking at explaining away how they really aren't THAT interested in doing XXX, I think of these perfectly good horses that have been thrown away and I see several who could probably do exactly what the person wants them to do and probably a lot cheaper than what they're looking at spending on the horse that won't do what they want. 

I know several people who have gone down that road and now have a barn full of crippled, geriatric (nothing wrong with old, they just don't make very good athletes at a certain point), grade horses (most say they want to show in breed shows) that they can't do anything they started out wanting to do and even if they now found a suitable horse, they've taken on so many 'rescues' that they can't afford to do it anyhow. There's a lady at my dressage coach's barn who has a to die for Friesian mare, just floats when she moves, who would love to do dressage with her. She also has 4 'rescues' she couldn't say no to and has to board them all because she lives in the city and because of the 4 'rescues' who are all pasture sound only (barely), she can't even afford to have the Friesian trained, so she effectively has nothing and can't even ride, let alone compete and follow her dreams. 

Especially right now, I would not buy a horse who doesn't have the conformation to do what I want, it's a big enough gamble when they have great confo. There are some really awesome horses floating around that CAN and WILL do everything the OP wants, and for a pittance, that can be had for budget money and can do the jobs wanted, I hate to see someone spend $$$ on a horse that won't be able to do what they are dreaming of. 

As for breeding. O MY! I have gotten down to 3 broodmares, 2 of whom are under saddle the 3rd is old enough that I won't put her through it, and those 3 are for sale. I haven't put anyone in foal for 2019 and have no plans to put anyone in foal next breeding season for 2020. I have no desire to breed to fill the kill pens. So we're on the same page with not encouraging breeding.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Oh and I forgot your question about the pillow. I have no idea what that's all about, never seen one of those before. I was just showing you the heated mattress pad. Most of the electric blankets over here have a warning to NOT lay on top of them, so an electric blanket is just that. 

Yeeeesh, braces......I've got an arm brace for my elbow bursitis and tennis elbow, one for my torn anterior cruciate ligament......I don't want anymore....Getting old is not for the faint of heart!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@*DreamCatcher* Arabians Gotta watch those electric blankets for serious dehydration issues. I loved, loved, loved mine until I figured out all (most) the health issues I was having went straight back to dehydration and so sadly, I fired/retired the EB and most issues resolved. Replaced it with varying weights of down (or if you are allergic there are alternatives) comforters. Sleep like a baby now. ETA I will say I kept the mattress warmer until I moved here but it was on a timer and it came on about an hour I went to bed and turned off 15 minutes before I climbed in.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> @*DreamCatcher* Arabians Gotta watch those electric blankets for serious dehydration issues. I loved, loved, loved mine until I figured out all (most) the health issues I was having went straight back to dehydration and so sadly, I fired/retired the EB and most issues resolved. Replaced it with varying weights of down (or if you are allergic there are alternatives) comforters. Sleep like a baby now. ETA I will say I kept the mattress warmer until I moved here but it was on a timer and it came on about an hour I went to bed and turned off 15 minutes before I climbed in.


That's interesting about the dehydration. I've never heard of it or had that problem with either the mattress heater or an EB. I'll look into that further, just to be on the safe side.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Just on the electric blanket (that you call a mattress heater) - no dehydration problems in this household.

1. You don't leave them on all night - they're really just for heating things up before you get in - then you snuggle up to your spouse (or heated teddy bear if none is available). And if you really really have to have extra warmth all night, then just run it on the lowest setting. Because it's usually extremities that ache, I find the electric blanket in combination with light bedding best for me - I would die with a thick quilt on top of me, and sweat a lot, which is not conducive to good sleep - but I like having, say, an achy knee directly on a warm surface soaking up that hot water bottle type warmth, rather than recycled body heat. But these things vary depending on the person!

2. We drink our green tea out of the biggest soup mugs we could find - half a pint at a time, many times a day - so we stay well and truly hydrated (and keep toilet tissue manufacturers in roaring business :rofl.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

ApuetsoT said:


> It's not her knees that give me pause, it's her pasterns and feet.


It is truly hard to capture a picture of the extent of her knees - but her feet would be my first priority to get fixed. Her current farrier is the farrier that lamed my horse on his first trim with her, and overall does a poor job. I think if she were to have her feet slowly rehabbed to help account for her knees, it'd be less of a problem. I would like to see how her pastern angle would change with more consistent, good trims - though her pasterns are still long.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

loosie said:


> Haven't read further, only initial post. The thing to remember is there is a big difference between unchangeable conformation and posture. Tho posture, if it remains the same for many years can become unchangeable. A lot of what people call 'conformation' is but a moment in time, that can be changed with different management, chiropractic work, etc.
> 
> What I see here is a horse who is high heeled. Likely also weak heeled. To lower her heels appropriately & protect(pad) the back of the foot as needed in order that she may comfortably use them, land heel first & rest on her DC's will greatly change the 'conformation' of those knees.



In her specific case, lowering the heels would be a very slow process, correct? I know I have seen posts on here related to trimming off heel too quick, and essentially causing injuries higher up. Her hooves are my biggest concern, as her knees don't bother me so much, as I know she can ride comfortably despite them.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Her knees wouldn't concern me near as much as her pasterns, her r fore is also a club foot and while I wouldn't rule her OUT on that alone, she has other confo issues. She may be sweet as pie but she's not a good example of the Arabian breed. Probably the reason why she isn't registered.


She should have been registered, but her sire was never registered, thanks to irresponsible owners - and you aren't supposed to register a pure Arab as a half-Arabian through AHA, which I'm sure you probably know much better than me :lol: she reminds me a lot of my previous Egyptian bred Arab with her face - it definitely isn't the pretty face you think of with Arabs. If I remember correctly, she is heavily Egyptian and Polish bred, as another member said. 

Luckily I haven't been showing on the Arab circuit in over 5 years at this point, so her being a great example of the Arabian breed isn't a huge concern for me, I am more concerned about finding a horse to have fun with and learn further on.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I stand to be corrected here but I believe that in horses that have a long pastern that's angled in the way that horses is, the 'go to' trimming/shoeing method to reduce potential suspensory problems is to raise the heel which would then be detrimental to the tied in knee
If you lower the heel to assist the knee action then you risk aggravating the pastern problem


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

While, *I* would not buy this mare as a potential endurance horse.. that doesn't mean it's not possible she could do it and never take a lame step in her life. My mare Dream was something of a conformation train wreck. I started out riding her for someone else and would never have looked twice at her if I had seen her in sale ads.. yet she excelled at endurance - go figure.


Go with your gut.. but know what you hope for is not necessarily what you may get. What is more important to you: your eventing/endurance goals or owning this specific horse?


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## QueenofFrance08 (May 16, 2017)

Agree with @phantomhorse13. I'm pretty new to endurance but in my first year I've seen a lot of conformation nightmares that seem to do just fine in endurance, especially if you're trying to complete more than compete and if you aspire to shorter distances. Not that it's technically a conformation flaw but the top 100 mile horse (who is also 6th in National Best Conditioned Awards, and 1st in their weight division in their region) this year only has one eye so.... Beauty is as beauty does sometimes!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

ClearDonkey said:


> In her specific case, lowering the heels would be a very slow process, correct? I know I have seen posts on here related to trimming off heel too quick, and essentially causing injuries higher up. Her hooves are my biggest concern, as her knees don't bother me so much, as I know she can ride comfortably despite them.


Yes. And no. It depends what's going on as to how much/fast heels can be lowered. If they are seriously high, my guideline is lowering/changing angles no more than 1/2" max at a time, as if you lower too drastically, you can put significant strain on tendons etc. Also if they've been high very long term, the actual tubercles(grain) of the bone will have adapted & this can take many many weeks to adapt back - that should be OK if the horse were bumming in the paddock, working lightly on soft footing, but I wouldn't want them working on hard ground or doing high impact stuff for some months after the change, as the bone wouldn't have adapted to stress from a different angle yet. And then there's comfort/weakness of caudal foot - If they're too sensitive to bear the horse & heel first landing, then regardless how 'ideally' low you trim the heels, they're still going to 'tippy toe'. But that one may or may not improve over time, depending on the damage, age of horse etc, and can generally be remedied with artificial protection/support - boots, maybe with frog support pads, for eg.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

My old boy Monty was a little oddly built. His general underpinnings were all pretty decent, but he was a bit of a mix and match pony - he had parts belonging to a 16hh+ horse and parts belonging to a barely 14hh Arab.

He could jump the moon. I wholeheartedly believe he jumped as well as he did because he _loved_ jumping. Really loved it with everything he had. He was at his happiest with a line of big jumps in front of him and a rider who was with him and never got in his way.

Ultimately his off fore knee and pastern gave out on him and started collapsing out from under him in canter and once on landing from a jump, so I semi-retired him to life as a trail horse. Then his hips and hocks gave up on him and he stopped wanting to even go on trail rides.

He was a VERY good jumper because he was built to be a good jumper, but he was not sound into his 20s. In fact he didn't even _live_ to be 20 - he was only 18 when he passed. I don't doubt some of that is because he had a hard life (was a high level performance horse in his younger days, then disappeared off the face of the planet aged 10, then reappeared at 14 in a paddock, starved most of the way to death - I bought him off his rescuer when he was 15), but some of it is more than likely due to his conformation.

Conformation dictates what a horse is _physically_ capable of. Heart dictates what they _do_ with that physical ability.


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