# turning bad habits into something good



## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

I keep 3 or 4 horses at a time in my barn. Some of them show up with the habit of pawing or banging their door to get my attention. I hang a bell where they can reach it. The horse is behaving in this manner to get attention. They prefer positive attention but if they can't get that they will go try for negative attention. Banging and pawing bothers me and is a negative trait. Ringing the bell is a cool trick. I always praise the horse for ringing the bell. Anyone who comes to my barn is enchanted with the idea of a bell ringing horse and rushes over to praise and pet the horse. This makes more of my interaction with my horses positive. It puts things on the right foot for riding and training. I am not irritated and the horse got my attention like he or she wanted.I'm not sure it would work in a very large barn if all of the horses had them but maybe.
Just make sure the bell is securely fastened on a short piece of baling twine or other solid tie and pick a robust bell like a cow or goat bell. Some horses like it more than others. The more mishievious the horse the more likely they will take to the bell
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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

I like that! Very creative and thoughtful of you.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

I just wish I had thought of it years earilier.
I wanted to add that you must play with the horse for a few minutes so they know they can make the noise with it
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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

I don't know. To me, the constant bell ringing would get down right annoying. Like I'm a bell hop.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

I just wish I had thought of it years earilier.
I wanted to add that you must play with the horse for a few minutes so they know they can make the noise with it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

I read that.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

And it won't let me edit it off! Weird.
Personally being a person who likes bells better than stall kicking I think it is cute. You just find ones that are pleasing to you. The horses don't seem to rinf them all of the time anyway. They just do it when they feel extra needy. I have one off the race TB who seems really somehow satisfied with his bell. He's calmer now.
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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

We just ignore it and the horse eventually gives up trying. Luckily my boy never developed that habit.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

Well when you have enough horses to train you find that some need more stimulation than others. One size fits all does not work for horses anymore than it does for people. I'm happy you have a perfect horse
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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I like the idea, but i like the idea of correcting the behavior better. No offense, but i what happens if you take your horse to a over night show and they dont have a bell? Or you sell the horse? They have no bell, just a door to paw at.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Thanks! Yeah, he's pretty good.

We have about 14 horses in the barn. About three are really bad stall kickers. The BO yells out their name and they stop. Or if you are walking by and they start, you just continue walking and they stop. Like I said, they just give up.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Solon said:


> Thanks! Yeah, he's pretty good.
> 
> We have about 14 horses in the barn. About three are really bad stall kickers. The BO yells out their name and they stop. Or if you are walking by and they start, you just continue walking and they stop. Like I said, they just give up.


Agreed. Im sorry but if i sent my horses to a "trainer" to be trained and they developed and issue in the stall. Instead of the trainer correcting the behavior they just "re directed" it towards something else. I would not pay them. To me, thats avoiding the work.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Exactly.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Its kinda the same concept as a horse "rubbing" on you. The normal beginner horse person would be like "Aw loook! How cuteee!" When really, thats very naughty. What your horses are doing is still naughty, just in a "cuter" VERY annoying way.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Some of the things we have done to keep horses entertained in the stall and keep from kicking is to add stuff in the stall for them to do. Whether it is as simple as a empty milk jug hung from the wall they can bounce around or a horse toy called the Amazing Graze. You can put treats in it, they roll it around and the treats come out. But many of the horses push it around without anything in it.

I think a lot of it is just keeping them active. When they do see someone go by and start kicking - not acknowledging it seems to work good. Granted maybe not for all horses. But like I said before, a barn full of ringing bells would get really irritating, especially if you are in the arena trying to work your horse.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

Moving the bell is not an issue. It's easy. I just untie it. It seems to calm them in a lasting manner. Sometimes I go for a day trip without the bells and they don't mind.
Horses get very, very bored. I find it interesting that so many people would have a problem with a simple inexpensive solution to their boredom. They ring the bell. I stroke the horses's face, they heave a big sigh of contentment...why get out the dressage whip or the hose instead. Don't we have horses because we like them? Are we not trying foster an enjoyable life for riding clients and a good working situation for professionals. Don't calmer horses work better under saddle?
Redirecting the animals energy to something positive is far more interesting than spending my time punishing an animal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

Ps that stall bangingmachine which squirts them in the face is astonishingly expensive. really expensive bell is about 20 bucks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

I think we've both explained why. Plus bells are loud. And if you're working another horse in the arena, you don't want to be listening to a bunch of bells.

No one said anything about punishment. Ignore them or put some toys in the stall.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

horseservant said:


> Ps that stall bangingmachine which squirts them in the face is astonishingly expensive. really expensive bell is about 20 bucks!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



stall banging machine?


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

After over 40 yrars of horse keeping I will say the following. One people aren't bring me horses to train to stop kicking their stalls so I am not looking to be paid (yoiu are weird for suggesting this). Two if you can't concentrate on riding becuase occasionally a bell rings once or twice an hour you have more problems than you think. Three ignoring the horses doesn't always work with horses that have long term ingrained habits and are being rehabilitated. Four I think you are both being pretty rude. Did I say you were all stupid if you didn't run out and buy your horse a bell? No, I said this an alternative. Being catty little things that you are yoiu want to prove that I am a terrible horse owner and trainer. By all means yell at the horses as loud as you can and ignore them when that doesn't work. It makes such a lovely barn environment
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Now giving a horse something to play with it a different story. What you were describing as an impatience issue.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

If you don't like other opinions, maybe you shouldn't post.

I'm just saying personally, I think bell ringing would be irritating. No one said you were a terrible horse trainer. Just really questioning how well a bell would actually work.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

Ps they come to my pawing and they stop the same day. Wow I am so evil!
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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

Can you concentrate if someone is groom their horse and talking to someone other than yourself? It's a bell not a foghorn,
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Exaggeration much?


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

No one ever said anything about being evil. Just saying if i took my horse to you to get trained and instead of correcting the issue you "re-directed" it. I wouldnt pay you.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

.Delete. said:


> Its kinda the same concept as a horse "rubbing" on you. The normal beginner horse person would be like "Aw loook! How cuteee!" When really, thats very naughty. What your horses are doing is still naughty, just in a "cuter" VERY annoying way.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Exactly


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm standing up for horseservant re: his/her *intention* in posting, which was to be of help, by sharing something that might work with others' horses.

The lack of appreciation for good intentions is a chronic problem, imo, on the forum. 

To compound that, when OP's feelings get hurt, & OP dares to say so, y'all play innocent & say "Just don't post if you can't handle disagreement!" 

Get clear: it's not disagreement that mature people can't handle, it's the uncalled-for put-downs showing total ingratitude for good intentions!

Still smarting, myself, Solon, from this treatment from you on the Anky thread, I'm disgusted with your same treatment of horseservant!

Horseservant, whether your solution offered here works for other horses is beside the point; your sharing in the spirit of helpfulness is appreciated, at least by me.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Oh please northern - get over yourself already.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Whoa Northern, if that was directed towards me aswell i was not bashing. I was putting my 2 cents in. Im sure it works for other people, just not my favorite idea hence. "I like the idea, but i like the idea of correcting the behavior better"


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Plus, re-directing a horse's energy into positive channels is absolutely sound horsemanship/husbandry, Delete. Why you'd have an issue with it is curious.


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

Holy smokes, if you don't like the idea, don't use it. But don't act like the idea is stupid and has no merit.
And there are ways of expressing an opinion without sounding stuck up and on your high horse, so to speak
There are some horses who are extremely playful and not necessarily being bad, and working with that temperament rather than against it shows true horsemanship (in my opinion).


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

What is interesting is that no one has said "I tried that and it really sucked. The bell ringing drove me nuts and it didn't work for me at all, therefore it isn't a good tool". Nope, all I got is that it is a bad idea because it would be drive everyone nuts with bells ringing, it's better to shout at the horses and it's like letting a horse rub it's face on you. (Which I agree is a horrible habit). Also some answer about not paying a trainer. What a lovely group of responses. It is only offered as an alternative if someone would like to try it. Not that everyone who doesn't is bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Simply because from what was being described sounds like a impatience issue. I would rather correct it, then give them something to play with in the stall if they are bored. Not simply "Oh instead of kicking at the stall door, you can ring this bell". Maybe its just me, but i see nothing being corrected with that.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Whoanow, i never said the idea was stupid. I am not bashing or saying its a bad idea, simply saying its not what i would do. An yes, i would not pay you if you did that. I dont feel as if im being rude here? Sorry if you think i am


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

It's just a differing opinion after she told more about what it was she was doing.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks, Juniper.


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

How is giving them "something to play with" any different from giving them a bell to play with?


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

Also having a racehorse off the track who has been so badly beaten that he shakes so hard he looks like he is going to fall down itcan be in some circumstances the right tool in some circumstances. If some yells at him he looks like he is going to faint. It works very well for that horse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Juniper said:


> How is giving them "something to play with" any different from giving them a bell to play with?


In case you didn't read all the posts I said the bell would be irritating to listen to. FOR ME. I didn't say it would be irritating to everyone! I think it's an unusual idea. But if you like the sound maybe it will work for you.

Horses play in their stalls all the time at our barn and it's not loud. The ones that do kick - like I said are ignored or the BO yells out there name and they stop.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

I have on off the track gelding who shakes so hard he looks like he is going to faint if anyone looks at him wrong. When someone yells at him he looks like he is going to faint. He used to bang his stall. Now he occassionaly rings the bell. It worked for him. I don't know who beat him but I think he has had quite enough 'correction' when it comes to nondangerous behaviour
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

Northern said:


> Thanks, Juniper.


You're welcome!


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I would correct the issue first. Like i said it sounded like more of an impatience issue then a boredom issue. But like i said thats just me. Different strokes for different folks.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

horseservant said:


> I have on off the track gelding who shakes so hard he looks like he is going to faint if anyone looks at him wrong. When someone yells at him he looks like he is going to faint. He used to bang his stall. Now he occassionaly rings the bell. It worked for him. I don't know who beat him but I think he has had quite enough 'correction' when it comes to nondangerous behaviour
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


....Correction and beating are 2 completely different things


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

.Delete. said:


> Different strokes for different folks.


Evidently not Delete!

Speaking of methods for correcting - have you had any successful ways where you board?


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Haha i dont board, i would have to have horses to board ;] Where i used to work, my boss would stand outside her horses stall and wait for it to start pawing then correct him, and slowly move farther and farther away from the stall for longer periods of time, and repeat. When it was feeding time she would do the same. Soon enough the horse learned that pawing at the door was a nono.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

I'll pass that on to the BO. I am really lucky Solon never started, he'd knock the door right off the hinge if he started pawing!


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

We had a mule at my work that would kick at the door, once he actually managed to knock it down.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

Thanks to all who stood up for my concept as an idea. As a life long horsewoman I have dealt with many horses that just needed a little peace and an opportunity to settle down.Some need a bunch of correction but some just need to let their poor racing minds have some rest and have quite frankly been corrected too much.
There are some ruined horses, especially those off the track, that would feel very anxious being crowded off the doorway area. I once made a kiss noise to the horses that is so afraid. He leapt from one side of his stall to the other and trembled so hard I seriously thought he was going to fall down. His legs were shaking about 5 inches. It took him a day to recover from that. All I wanted him to do is move over. Apparently someone beat him terribly when they made that noise. He used to paw before he got the bell. As far as I am concerned he can drive everyone nuts with his bell all he wants. At least he's happy and he's getting the idea that no one is going to beat him in my barn. He's got a home for life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

I like the idea of it and i can see how it works for yopu.
But do your horses realise if i ring my bell she will give me the attention i want? Do you not find that distracting if your prepping your horse and your nervous OTTB rings the bell you must go over and praise him to help him get over his nervousness


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

.Delete. said:


> Haha i dont board, i would have to have horses to board ;] Where i used to work, my boss would .....the best part about this is that 'delete' doesn't even own horses but he oe she knows everything!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Now who's being rude. Delete happens to give very knowledgeable information and insight.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

He only rings it maybe twice a day at morninf feeding and late at night. It seems to be a very satisfying thing to him to have a bell to ring. Bells come in different loudnesses. It you tie it very short they can only wiggle it a little with their lips and it just doesn't bother me. He used to bang all of the time. I don't know why the horse is so pleased with the bell but he is. My mare also has a bell. She only rings it occasionally , sometimes not even once a day. I have many years of horse experience and have been to all sorts of barns. I hate going places where someone is always shouting at a horse or fussing over some sort of behaviour. My horses perform well for me in and out of the show ring and I think it has a lot to do with trying to find ways of having a peaceful life. The bell is not as loud as my neighbor yelling at his kid, the other neighbor's barking dog or the motorcycle that goes up the road twice a day. The elk rutting are much louder too. Most stables have a radio going so no one would hear it over that either
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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

Oh yes Solon, you do too. You can't say something wouldn't work for you unless you have tried it. It just invalidates an argument. You are a one horse owner who is a perfect equestrian because your horse doesn't kick its stall. When both of you have a little wider experience you will be less likely to make such statements. Or at least I hope for your own sake and life happiness you and your buddy 'delete' figure it out. Otherwise it's a tough road
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Dang, it's fun to have someone else besides me tell the darlings to quit with the snarkiness, for a change!


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

You know, I said my horse didn't kick his stall not to say he was perfect but to state I didn't have experience with my own horse kicking his stall. I also never said it wouldn't work. I said *I* would find it irritating and I offered up other things that we used to keep the horses occupied. You don't know me or how much experience I have.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Here's my $.02. I don't see this issue with giving the horse a bell. I do, however, see a big issue in the horse being fawned over when he activates it. That is like being the horse's servant, no pun intended. He rings his little bell, you run to him. I respectfully disagree with this method.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Northern said:


> Dang, it's fun to have someone else besides me tell the darlings to quit with the snarkiness, for a change!


Just because you didn't like what people said to you on the other thread does not mean you've got to bring it here. You're not adding to the conversation at all. At least the rest of us are, even if we don't really know about the use of the bell.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

There's nothing to object to, if the horse & human are happy with the bell, & it's not turning the horse into an unbenevolent dictator.

Horseservant has said that it does the job at her barn, with no negative effects upon either horse or human, so I, for one, am happy that hs has found a satisfactory solution.

Solon, it's only your opinion or apparent opinion that I've added nothing to this thread. I brought nothing here from Anky thread; I observed your treatment of hs to be the same negative treatment that I received, and called you on it.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

solon, we can TELL what your experience level is just from your statements. You love me telling you to knock it off or you would stop emailing me replys and so would your buddy "Delete".
I am glad that Northern is here. Thank you Northern


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

It's been my pleasure, hs! I look forward to reading more of your mature & insightful posts.


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

:rofl:well at least it was about 50/50 positive. Those two seem to think their negative opinions are pretty important!


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

as for Sunny, I respect your opinion. I must admit after a lifetime of shoveling horsemanure (maid service), feed twice a day(personal chef), grooming (hair dresser), picking feet (manicurist) and exercise (personal trainer) plus paying for it all as well I do feel like a horse servant. I pet him when he rings his bell, yes. One I'd like him to have a super cool trick to show my friends. Two I really like petting the horse. I agree it isn't for everybody. Part of it is that I found a way to stop the horse from being annoying and it is fun for him and me. Apart from what two of the people on this forum have said it has all been positive for me!


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I don't think anyone was giving negative opinions....just opinions. They may not have matched yours, but that does not make it negative. I don't have a problem with any of you guys...but Northern and HS, you guys are starting to gang up just like you were accusing the others of doing. Seems like a bit of hypocrisy is going on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

when you get a little longer in the tooth you probably won't have much patience for that sort of thing either. Perhaps you are young enough to still see more of the good in people. As for ganging up. Not everyone likes to be walked on and not everyone is going to take it. Northern was trashed by them on another thread too.


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## soileddove (Jul 27, 2010)

horseservant said:


> as for Sunny, I respect your opinion. I must admit after a lifetime of shoveling horse manure (maid service), feed twice a day(personal chef), grooming (hair dresser), picking feet (manicurist) and exercise (personal trainer) plus paying for it all as well I do feel like a horse servant.


ha ha Had to break in, sorry, but I did like this little snippet. :lol: Definitely can relate. 

I dunno.. When I was a Dairy Princess, we were taught to robotically say that there's different forms of dairy farm management and that all are effective and and still produce a nutritious product (of course there's bad eggs EVERYWHERE). There's all kinds of forms of horse training and management and as long as horseservant and her horses are happy, it shouldn't be an issue really. 

Personally I wouldn't use this route regularly, but I can definitely see the entertainment value as a trick.. Especially since I tell people all the time that I'm a slave to my horse. I mean it in a joking way, meaning that sure, she hauls my butt around, but she eats well and doesn't have to do much, she gets pampered, and all that stuff [see horseservants quote]. This would definitely prove that point.

My horse is an incessant pawer. She is clever though and she would easily transfer the idea. Ignoring her has worked well, although slowly, over the years, but I might just see how this works for a trick.. ha I think its a good one. Yes, its transferring the behavior, but I don't really see her stopping anytime soon, although its slowed down considerably, so I might as well take advantage of it. 

I certainly wouldn't allow that to be a constant cure-all, as it wouldn't work for me, but you know.. It might be amusing sometimes..


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Oh, trust me, I read it. :lol: But for such older(not in a rude way) people, i'm suprised at the whole revenge thing going on. It seems childish, with all due respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Some of you folks need to chill out. Solon and Delete disagreed. They said the SAME THING Sunny did, but what, because Sunny said she "respectfully disagreed" that makes her disagreement more accepting? I do see some hypocrisy going on, and I found the posts made by horseservant and Northern to be more rude than Solon's and Delete's.

Now for my opinion on the bells. In theory, I think it's a decent idea. But in practice, it just seems... over the top? What happens when you are riding or you're not at the barn when they ring the bell? Does the bell send an alert to your cell phone so you can rush to the barn to pet said horse? Do you jump off the horse you're riding to pet said horse? Of course not. Therefore, you lose the "consistency" part of training, which I feel is the most important part. They only gets pets sometimes, no matter how much they ring the bell. 

I'd be curious to see what would happen if you removed the bell. If it truly worked, as a way of redirecting their energy, they wouldn't paw, even without the bell. Hmm... willing to give it a shot? Just for experiments sake?

Personally, I don't like horses to be kept in stalls anyway. They only come in when absolutely necessary, and never kick, because they know they won't be in there for long. However, my little one is very impatient, and will paw the ground if I leave her tied. To fix this, I worked on her "whoa." When she is tied [to a post, to crossties, to the ground, whatever] her feet are NOT to move. Not to paw, not to step ove, nothing. Whoa means whoa. Seems to work just fine.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

RicOlive: Jiminy Christmas: I can't defend someone who's being trashed & then that person can't say thank you?! Then I can't say you're welcome, without us being accused of ganging up on the trashers?!

Twist City!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I whole heartedly agree with Ricci...

It's time to step back and relax, folks...people can state their opinions, and the OP can either take it or leave it...but to keep up the nonsensical 'badgering' between those who are in disagreement? It adds nothing to the thread itself, and probably turns several others off, because the intent of the forum itself is to be a friendly, inviting, informational place...not another place to beat each other up.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

IMO, those thanks should be done via PM.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

Hmm, well as if the horse is pawing or banging when I am not in the the barn to pet him I'm thinking it doesn't matter tiddly. I like how other people want to complain about an exchange that occurred between 4 people that they were not part of. If you think it is so childish why participate? 
My horse is happy. I am happy. He stopped without being stressed. What a terrible thing!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

I feel no shame in thanking Northern. On the forum. Thanks Northern!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I said the attempt at revenge was childish. Don't get snarky with me when I haven't said a rude word to anyone. People have to learn to repsect other's opinions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

horseservant said:


> Hmm, well as if the horse is pawing or banging when I am not in the the barn to pet him I'm thinking it doesn't matter tiddly. I like how other people want to complain about an exchange that occurred between 4 people that they were not part of. If you think it is so childish why participate?
> My horse is happy. I am happy. He stopped without being stressed. What a terrible thing!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was not complaining, and frankly, it's mods jobs to try and keep threads on the 'right' track...if others are noticing and reporting certain posts, it's our job to investigate it, and try to redirect the thread. 

If your horse is happy, fine. I don't see an issue with how you've creatively 'solved' the issue, but if others disagree, there is no reason to start ganging up on each other over it; that goes for all that participated in that. :wink:


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

First, I felt the need to "participate" because I saw two very knowledgely members being slammed because one "doesn't even own a horse" and the other just has a "perfect, magical one." Both Delete and Solon are remarkable horsemen, they've proven that to me, and I respect them. I also found their comments to be more polite and courteous that the ones made by yourself and Northern.

Second, how do you KNOW they aren't pawing when you aren't there? Do you hide and listen? Do you record it? Probably not. Out of pure curiosity, I'd really like an answer. I'd really like to know if this is a true cure of the bad behavior, or it's just a trick they learned to get a treat. Furthermore, that doesn't answer the part about when you are riding or working with a horse. Do you dismount to pet a horse when it's feeling particularly needy? As I said, I think this is a great idea in theory, but I'm finding some rather large holes in the practice. If you'd try to fill in these holes, I'd be most appreciative. Thank you.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm not trying to answer for hs, but imo, a horse can learn that a human won't come to the bell if the human isn't in the vicinity, thus able to hear it. Part of the fun of horse ownership is finding out how much your horse can figure out/giving him new challenges to figure out, & it's part of the responsibility of horse ownership, as well.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Out of curiosity, how do we learn how much our horses figure out if, for this situation, we can't be there while they are "figuring it out?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Wouldn't it be easier to just not stall the horse if it is so bored it starts pawing?

My horses are out 24/7 and don't have any behaviors related to boredom, even when they do need to be harder for a night or two. 

Horses are made to be outside and moving 24/7 - I don't blame them for pawing or similar if they are cooped up for longer than necessary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseservant (Jul 29, 2010)

Or as I am not abusing my horse in anyway everynody could just lay off and stop jumping in on the whole fray...I guess that is too much to ask.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Stop jumping in? This is a forum. Jumping in is what we do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Northern said:


> I'm not trying to answer for hs, but imo, a horse can learn that a human won't come to the bell if the human isn't in the vicinity, thus able to hear it. Part of the fun of horse ownership is finding out how much your horse can figure out/giving him new challenges to figure out, & it's part of the responsibility of horse ownership, as well.


Yes, that would make sense. But I'm more curious to know if this method can/did actually cure the pawing/stall kicking, which is what the OP wanted to stop. Do they resume kicking when the human isn't about? Do they only ring the bell when the human is about because they will get pets?



horseservant said:


> Or as I am not abusing my horse in anyway everynody could just lay off and stop jumping in on the whole fray...I guess that is too much to ask.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lay off what? I'm really curious. I'd really like to know what would happen if you removed the bells, or hid for a while to see if they resumed kicking. Even if it does turn out to just be a trick, it's still a cute trick regardless. I want to know if it worked as the cure you say it was. I'm being most courteous, you have no reason to continue to ignore my inquiries. Please and thank you.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to just not stall the horse if it is so bored it starts pawing?
> 
> My horses are out 24/7 and don't have any behaviors related to boredom, even when they do need to be harder for a night or two.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly, wild spot. Some recent reading and research I've done seems to point to almost every "stable vice" being traceable to inadequate turnout. Horses are horses, not meant to be kept in a box 24/7. I'm sure if I was locked in my bathroom all day, brought meals at set times, and put to work for an hour a day, I'd start pawing at the door as well. :lol: Critters don't deal well with confinement, as a general rule.

horseservant, kudos for finding a solution that works for you and your situation.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Hs isn't under obligation to answer any/all of people's questions here: it's hs' prerogative to answer or not, as hs sees fit.

Re: question, I'll add that I like to find out--so in this case, I'd hide & see what horse was doing.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Northern said:


> Hs isn't under obligation to answer any/all of people's questions here: it's hs' prerogative to answer or not, as hs sees fit.
> 
> Re: question, I'll add that I like to find out--so in this case, I'd hide & see what horse was doing.


No, the OP certainly isn't "obligated" and I don't mean to imply that they are. But refusing to answer the question just makes it seem, to me, that they think they're horse would continue pawing but don't want to risk having to admit that they're cure is just a trick. The OP seemed very adamant throughout the thread that they were right, they knew what they were doing and this is the only way, but when given the oppurtinity to provide a little more proof, the just state that we need to lay off because she isn't abusing her horses. 

As I said, there's no harm in having a cute bell trick. And again, in theory, it is always best to redirect the negative energy into something positive. I imply the same theory daily with my girls. But trial and error and experimentation is how we learn, and I honestly am very curious. I can't do the experiment myself, so the only way for me to learn is through someone else. If it were me, I would hide and see what was going on, but I don't have the OP's problem.

On a side-note, I do agree 100% with wild_spot. Most bad habits are caused by inadequate turn out. Weaving, cribbing, chewing, pawing, pacing, as well as bucking and being "spirited" under saddle, can all be linked to poor turn out.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Let's hope we all agree that turn-out is mainly best. 

The deal is, hs doesn't need to have every possible permutation figured out, extending from the simple act of hanging a bell in horse's stall, before it's acceptable to post that it's working. Ph.d in bell-hanging not required.

Hs may have all the bugs worked out on it, but even if so, & hs typed it all out, it may not apply to your unique horses/your environments.

Part of good horsemanship is figuring stuff out yourself.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Good idea in theory, anything is great to stop pawing, but no way in heck would I ever give my horse a bell. Someone already raised the point that it'll be a cold day in hell that my horse gets to dictate when I come and give him attention - that is MY decision, not his. I also don't understand how a horse couldn't accomplish exactly the same release from boredom by having a ball hung in his stall to play with by himself.

And of course, I agree completely with wild_spot - I avoid keeping my horses indoors at all costs anyway for the exact reason of stall vices. If I did have a barn to keep them in, it would be for bitterly nasty days only.

I definitely like the re-direction idea, I would just not go with a bell because I believe that could cause more vices in the long term.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Northern said:


> Let's hope we all agree that turn-out is mainly best.
> 
> The deal is, hs doesn't need to have every possible permutation figured out, extending from the simple act of hanging a bell in horse's stall, before it's acceptable to post that it's working. Ph.d in bell-hanging not required.
> 
> ...


I want to know if it worked to cure the pawing/stall kicking. That's it. You're throwing some useless, fancy words out there that aren't really addressing anything. I just want to know if it worked.

But, you're correct, I think we can all agree good turn out is best.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

RiccilOve, you've already decided that you'd hide to see if pawing continued, so, why ask hs more question(s) on subject? 

That hs hasn't hidden to see (I infer from a post of hs') shouldn't matter to anyone but hs & hs' horse. Why? Because her horse is different from your horse & it won't help you to know if her horse figured it out!

I don't appreciate you accusing me of throwing useless, fancy words "out there", either! Unbelievable!


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Hmm....I had wondered why this particular thread had taken off. Now I see why! 

I wont get down in the muck with anyone...though my catty female side screams for me to join in! Ill try to make this as polite as possible as I would hate to offend anyone with mere words.

While I agree that it is a good idea in theory...I would also get annoyed with all that bell ringing. Cute trick? AB-SO-Freakin-lutly. Would I like to see a horse ring a bell to get loves hugs and treats...for sure! I love a good trick. Especially since I don't have to teach *my* horse to do it. We have some EXTRA needy horses at my barn...A haflinger and a SSH who cant keep their mouths off of anything. That bell would ring 24/7...they would probably fight over who got to play with it...then they would tear it down and drag it into the field like they do EVERYTHING else (stall guards, feed pans, hay rack etc) Not to mention my BO lives feet from her barn...can you imagine the bell ringing at 2am (not for attention...just because they can!) Just for funnies I have come up with a scenario for all the horses who are stabled at the barn and what they would do with said bell.

Pretty Boy--Would stare at the bell and then turn his hind towards it...he is ABOVE a bell...pssh
Scooter--Spotted Saddle--Would lick the bell and would ring it almost constantly. He would be one who would not quit ringing until his needs were met...no matter when that would happen
Teddy--Haffie--Would be the main culprit in tearing the bell off the wall and playing fetch with it in the field. I doubt he would bother ringing it much...it would be much more fun to drag it out and stomp it into the ground.
Izzy--Complicated Paint--Would ring the bell until your ears rang and then when you came, would walk away slowly while casting a nasty look over his shoulder...you were too late...
Star Baby--Orphan Foal--Would attempt to eat the bell as she is still learning what is acceptable to eat and what is not. She would have a good munch on it before deciding that other horses tails are more delicious.
Rosie--Percheron--Is way above the bell. She would think it demeaning that you would hang a bell. Her goal is to get AWAY from humans...not call for their attention. Either that or she would ring it once...get scared out of her pants and never walk into her stall again without fearing the 'bell monster'

Lighten up guys...its just a freakin bell!


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## Amir (Nov 18, 2009)

I agree 110% with Wild_Spot.
All my horses, past and present, along with my friends are/have been kept in a paddock with a run in shelter 24/7.
It wasn't until last year when my friend got a Standardbred x-racer that was kept in a stable his whole (10 year) life that she finally got a horse with issues. He'll bang on the gate to be let in to the pony paddock until someone goes over and lets him through, then half an hour later, he wants out again.
No amount of ignoring him, yelling at him, chasing him away from the gate or giving him a smack with a hand or a crop has helped to stop this behavior. He learned that he got attention banging on his stable door and he's doing the same thing for any amount of attention in the paddock to the gates. He's even figured out how to let himself into each paddock after about half an hour of fruitless gate bashing.
I would like to try hanging bells or milk bottles with rocks on the fence to try and give him something to play with in hopes that he looses interest in trying to destroy gates and fences.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Well -- that's what I was saying to those wishing to cross-examine hs for "proof" of the validity of this *bell-hanging* theory, & to learn just whether or not OP has experimented & concluded that in all aspects of this horse's life, the* hanging bell* has had no deleterious effects, & furthermore, whether OP has set up every conceivable situation for the horse that could possibly happen to a horse on this planet, to have tested whether that* hanging bell* might have any deleterious effects, should such circumstance(s) arise, & whether OP did, in fact try to conceal the fact that OP did not, in fact, work out every aspect of the effects of *bell-hanging* upon this horse, both in real-time & in contrived circumstances, which would prove beyond all shadow of a doubt that OP is a charlatan, a con artist of the vilest sort, who is to be shunned on this forum for presumptuously (OP has no Ph.d in* bell-hanging* after all!)offering unthorough, misleading, & therefore useless information on* bell-hanging*.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Wouldn't it be easier to just not stall the horse if it is so bored it starts pawing?
> 
> My horses are out 24/7 and don't have any behaviors related to boredom, even when they do need to be harder for a night or two.
> 
> ...


 
Gotta say, I don't think I have ever had a horse with typical stall boredom behaviors either, but, like you, I prefer 24/7 turnout...even at the new place I'm at (since moving to CO), and my mare being in a smaller paddock, she still doesn't exhibit 'boredom' behaviors...she has a bit more energy when I go to work her, but she doesn't paw, toss her head, or other wise fidgit. There is something to be said about a horse being able to move around most of the day...it is very natural for the animal, that's for sure.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Haha Northern, I find you very amusing. Useless, fancy words indeed. =] I want to know if the OP's horses stopped pawing. Why are you getting so offended by it? It's a valid question, as I'm not sure the technique would work. So I am asking the ORIGINAL POSTER [read: not Northern but horseservant] if they would be willing to find out. If they start pawing again if the bell is removed, she just has to put the bell back. I'm curious to know if the horses learned that pawing is unacceptable, or that ringing the bell means getting some lovings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

riccil0ve said:


> I want to know if the OP's horses stopped pawing.* Why are you getting so offended by it?* It's a valid question, as I'm not sure the technique would work.


For my reasons already given in post #90; the rain of my answer falls on both the sincere & the insincere questioner of hs. Note: insincere questioners, please see post #93 for further elucidation, directed toward yourselves.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Srsly? What exactly, Northern, do you assume that we've based modern horse training on? Empty oblivion? We try methods because they WORK, not because they DON'T. If ten people try the bell and it works for none of them, as a whole we would be inclined to believe it's not worth wasting our time on and only come back to it as a last resort, opting instead for methods that DO have a proven success rate.

The situation has absolutely everything to do with an answer to the question - did this work on YOUR horse? If it didn't, the point is virtually moot - so now someone is bragging about a horse that paws AND is annoying? Maybe I should start posting every single time I try something with Jynx and it fails - after all, people should know every method I try so they can try it with their horse right?

It border on ridiculous how immature you manage to be in the pretense of acting mature - riccil0ve hit the nail on the head with your attempt at fancy lingo to deviate someone from the actual train of thought. Unfortunately, your grasp of the English language is as tenacious as your apparent knowledge of horses, so at this point you're just making a fool of yourself as you desperately attempt to defend a total stranger to deflect the realization that you have NO idea what you're talking about.

A forum is for discussion, not blind following. Asking questions gets you far in life - throwing a temper tantrum every time someone doesn't act the way you deem fit usually lands you in a boiling pot.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

Giggling a little at this thread...:lol:

I didn't want to post, but I just really wanted to say I loved corinowalk's assessment, hahaha


Also wanted to add the note that while life would be peaches and pie if everybody could keep their horses in pasture situations, there are also situations where horses must be kept stalled. I board at the most ideal stable within reasonable distance from my house, but there is no option for what I consider necessary turnout of stalled horses. I have two horses who must be stalled as they would need to probably each be in separate pastures alone or with one perfectly matched horse to them, and there is limited pasture space which I am not in charge of so that is not an option. They can only be turned out by my mom and me, generally only once a day for way too short of a time.
Of course, this sucks. I'm a firm believer in keeping horses out 24/7 or at least as much as you possibly can whenever it is doable, so of course I would love them to have a different situation, but you know what? Both of them are in excellent health, no stall vices, no added behavioural issues, no nothing. Only my younger, very curious and energetic Thoroughbred requires a small Lickit stall toy and is also kept occupied by three meals a day rather than the usual two. Both of them are turned out daily and worked as often as possible. Buddy tolerates it happily (thankful to not be stuck with a bunch of annoying younger horses) and Kainne needs a bit of extra help, but is ultimately happy and their situation works for them. I love my horses and do all that I can for them, but sometimes compromises have to be made.
However, when I bring my new mare over, you bet she'll be out in one of those pastures right off the bat, and I'm thrilled for that.

Anyway, I know I'm off-topic. We all do the best we can. At least this concept is an attempt to help horses cope, rather than expecting them to keep energy pent up.
With that said, personally, high pitched noises annoy the hell out of me and the types of horses I tend to go for wouldn't stop ringing the bell all day and night, needless to say I wouldn't bother with the idea for that reason. Glad to hear how it's worked so well for the abused TB, though. Any little thing that helps is a good thing. I only wish that a lot of the comments made hadn't been. It does make me hesitant to comment and I hope that everyone is thinking back to reconsider whether or not they have been unnecessarily hostile or bitter on this thread.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Srsly? What exactly, Northern, do you assume that we've based modern horse training on? Boy, that's a question requiring way too much work for a Sabbath evening! Can I get a rain check? Empty oblivion? How snarky!I detect that you imply that I am a fool, evil, or both! We try methods because they WORK, not because they DON'T.for none of them, This you'd explain to an idiot, so I say "snark!" again, for talking to me as if I'm an idiot. If ten people try the bell and it works as a whole you mean *doesn't* work we would be inclined to believe it's not worth wasting our time on and only come back to it as a last resort, opting instead for methods that DO have a proven success rate. If it works you don't want to waste your time on it; perhaps that "typo" was a Freudian slip!
> 
> So, ten of you should freaking try it! Hs is only one person!
> 
> ...


:lol::rofl: There's nothing like another evening of merriment on this forum!
:clap:


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Surprise, I'm psychic! In all actuality, I've just encountered enough trolls like you in my lifetime to understand exactly what the general intent is.

Speaking of which, do you even OWN a horse? It seems amusing to me that we can't seem to live without your divine input, and yet we really haven't heard much about what your actual credentials are?

My vote will be the troll under the bridge in the Three Billy Goats Gruff. Only nobody is scared of you, and even the tiny goat goes "really?"


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Again with the amusement! If I wasn't walking through the streets of Seoul, I'd take the time to reply to Northern's blubbering. But don't worry, I'll be back with my full artillery when I get home. =]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Yes, you DO HAZ a PMS, a PERPETUAL PMS, it would seem. Since you're already claiming that I know nothing about anything/am in fact a TROLL, why then ask me for my "credentials"? *You make no sense. *

I also have nothing to prove to you; besides, your idea of "credentials" surely is as twisted as the rest of your logic, so sharing with you would only be an exercise in futility. 

You don't cotton to my posts?I don't post to please you. Just stick with your absolute knowledge that I'm just a TROLL & find more important things to do than bash the TROLL-- you've done so a LOT, I might add! Sum buddie has way too much time on her hands!

Get off of my case, & that goes for all you snarkies!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Northern, whatever lucerne they are serving in your barn - can I have some too?


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Just to show Northern that they are the ones making mistakes here, this is what MM said.



MacabreMikolaj said:


> If ten people try the bell and it works for none of them, as a whole we would be inclined to believe it's not worth wasting our time...


This is what Northern quoted MM as saying, and her reply.

"If ten people try the bell and it works as a whole..." "you mean *doesn't* work"

Then goes on to say... "If it works you don't want to waste your time on it; perhaps that "typo" was a Freudian slip!"

Which I find quite comical, as Northern is the one to make the typo. Fruedian slip indeed.

What I find more comical is that Northern seems to be getting rather offended with my curiousity, channeled as a legit question to the OP [who has seemed to abandon the thread?], which Northern combats with, now I hope I quoted this right, "hs doesn't have a ph.D in *bell hanging*." Uh-huh.... Not sure when I asked to see the OP's doctrate regarding the bell... but alright. 

One more time, I want to pose this question. Will the OP's horses resume pawing/stall kicking if the bells are removed? I'm 80/20 on this one, I think it just gave them a new door, but when that door is closed, the will resort to what they know. I _could_ be wrong, the bells could have created a better outcome, and I'm willing to admit just that if someone can prove me wrong. And then I'd be willing to try the same thing, or something similar, if I was in the same situation. It _could_ be a valuable tool, but without any proof that it works to stop the bad behavior, there's no way I'd be willing to try it.

Unless the OP replies to my question, [my polite, PC question stemming from genuine curousity and the willingness to learn] I shall not bother with this thread again. Good day, Northern. May you come to your senses someday. Cheers! =D


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Northern=horseservant?


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Breaking my rule, but I had to reply to this. 



corinowalk said:


> Northern=horseservant?


I had the same thought! If so, I'd still like an answer to my question. I'd take an answer from anyone with a paw-er willing to try it. =]


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## Regan7312 (Jul 5, 2010)

horseservant said:


> After over 40 yrars of horse keeping I will say the following. One people aren't bring me horses to train to stop kicking their stalls so I am not looking to be paid (yoiu are weird for suggesting this). Two if you can't concentrate on riding becuase occasionally a bell rings once or twice an hour you have more problems than you think. Three ignoring the horses doesn't always work with horses that have long term ingrained habits and are being rehabilitated. Four I think you are both being pretty rude. Did I say you were all stupid if you didn't run out and buy your horse a bell? No, I said this an alternative. Being catty little things that you are yoiu want to prove that I am a terrible horse owner and trainer. By all means yell at the horses as loud as you can and ignore them when that doesn't work. It makes such a lovely barn environment
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
well i think it is a good idea and should not be a distraction because our arenas and all are away from our barn and heck we may even have the radio on in our barn. we have several horses who during feeding time like to paw to get our attention and a bell would be an excellent way to prevent this.


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## Regan7312 (Jul 5, 2010)

edit..

and no i would not be running to give them attention everytime they did it..it would just prevent the pawing and possibly throwing a shoe or something. 

by the way this arguing and crap is beyond stupid. why do people feel the need to attack and and argue over a stupid forum..and i was not calling names there. come on, cant we all just relax a little.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> Northern=horseservant?


 My thoughts, indeed. Why did HS slip away and Northern beam into the spotlight? But, surely HS will return now that we've mentioned this. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

horseservant said:


> .Delete. said:
> 
> 
> > Haha i dont board, i would have to have horses to board ;] Where i used to work, my boss would .....the best part about this is that 'delete' doesn't even own horses but he oe she knows everything!
> ...


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

riccil0ve said:


> First, I felt the need to "participate" because I saw two very knowledgely members being slammed because one "doesn't even own a horse" and the other just has a "perfect, magical one." *Both Delete and Solon are remarkable horsemen, they've proven that to me, and I respect them.* I also found their comments to be more polite and courteous that the ones made by yourself and Northern.
> 
> Second, how do you KNOW they aren't pawing when you aren't there? Do you hide and listen? Do you record it? Probably not. Out of pure curiosity, I'd really like an answer. I'd really like to know if this is a true cure of the bad behavior, or it's just a trick they learned to get a treat. Furthermore, that doesn't answer the part about when you are riding or working with a horse. Do you dismount to pet a horse when it's feeling particularly needy? As I said, I think this is a great idea in theory, but I'm finding some rather large holes in the practice. If you'd try to fill in these holes, I'd be most appreciative. Thank you.


That just made my day a whole lot better. Thank you Ricci


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I made a mistake (the "works for none of them, as a whole..." deal). You can see that I quoted MM's entire post & answered within the quote. You can see that "none of them" got misplaced, in my post, so it looked to me like it said, "if it worked, they'd not use it". 

I've had someone change their wording to make me look bad/wrong (another forum), but my post showing that the critical phrase got misplaced in the process of inserting my answers shows what happened here. 

I'm glad that it was my mistake & not MM's, because I was puzzling over it & it lowered my trust of MM another notch.

I apologize for my mistake.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

You take this whole thing way to personally.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

MM, maybe you could switch from lavender letter color & tiny letter size to facilitate reading of your posts. Some of us have to wear reading glasses, as it is.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Yes, its everyone elses fault, but your own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

delete-I know what you mean...i took offense for you. I am currently horseless due to finances. Does that mean I am inexperienced...oh no. That was definantly a comment meant to start a fight.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

Okay ladies and gentlemen, since that seems to turn pretty personal I think it's time to close the thread.

Hopefully it offered something useful to the participants .


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