# That hot topic, breeding grades, and what IS a grade



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Nice post.

I myself have 2 registered mares. My mom owns 2 unregistered "Grade" geldings. The one gelding, Nutmeg is an extremely nice, athletic horse. Best feet my farrier has ever seen, phenomenal mindset, body that holds up to anything, great bone and a super willing partner that enjoys doing EVERYTHING.

My 2 registered girls, one APHA and one AQHA, are quirky and PITA's. The QH is bred up the wha-zoo with racing horses. Im talking some of the best lines out there...And she can be such a brat. She has limited training (through no fault of her own) and shes injured, requires shoes, and is horrible for shots/the vet. The Paint is better, but has had issues in the past. Time off from work and age have calmed the girl down, but man can she be a brat!

To be, a "Grade" horse in MY book is any horse that CANnot or IS not registered in a REPUTABLE BREED registry. The color registries dont count in my book. Just because both parents are registered but the foal never was...doesnt mean anything to me. People lie. I want PROOF of a registered horse. DNA verified if need-be.

The thing is, i love a nicely bred horse. I paid big bucks for my "unrideable" mare (injury...no fault of her own) But when i want to ride a horse that'll go through anything, has a CAN DO attitude, and isnt going to put up a fight and throw a ***** fit...I ride one of the "Grade Geldings"

My mom constantly teases me that her $800 horse is superior to my money pits with the great pedigrees. And the truth is...He is superior in every way that TRULY counts. Except in speed. He's not fast enough for me. ;-)

By the way, i know both the sire and dam of the Grades. One of the boys is a purebred Curly...but his breeder never registered him. I know their exact bloodlines.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

The only type of grade breeding I would ever probably get behind is a good sport horse breeder who knows what they are doing to really refine all aspects. At one point in time most breeds were grades that were bred into one form of uniformity. Eventually it became a breed. I like to think of warmbloods when it comes to this. Light and heavy together to give power and agility together. Other than trying to refine sport horses (be it any sport).

No, as said before its too much of a crap shoot. Sure every once in a while you get a great mover, well proportioned horse. But how many horses out there failed to become that and end up lame or unathletic....etc.

Owning a grade horse I think is great. You already know what they are going to be like conformation wise and their talents. Breeding it too much of a gamble to ever be worth it. No one has ever really been able to guess what breed Jake is. When people ask I just shrug and say 'who knows?'. He is hot tempered, brave, honest, loyal, stocky, athletic past what anyone would think, he has high action gaits, he has a head that is too big for his body, and he is pinto. I'm guessing he was created as a random hope for color. I always joke that if I had the money to clone him, I would in a heart beat. I always wonder what he would have been like if he had been properly trained from the get go. At the same time I would still geld the clone. I would never have any intentions to breed a horse like Jake. He is great, but doesn't have that much to add that another stud couldn't add tenfold. 

((PS: That horse Ben, I could steal. Love how he moves and his build!))


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

Grades are great horses, but I would never breed them.

Too many unwanted horses in this world. Giving them a name (registry) won't stop them from starving to death in the wrong hands.

I have an appendix. She was bred so the owner could have a big, tall, athletic, big boned TB type horse with a level qh mind. The owner got a short, stocky, athletic qh type horse with a mind like a bag full of forcefully baptized cats.

Both parents were papered, so is she. But she could easily turn into a grade horse if she was sold without papers. She has nothing to offer an offspring. I would never breed her.

I like to think that the idea of breeding is to continue, promote and positively build on an established breed. Not everyone thinks that way.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

registered is about what you will probably get if you breed. Once the horse is standing on the ground it stands on its own merrits good or bad. Its the irresponsible part of getting them here to begin with thats wrongs. Seems most backyard breeders only mention color, course that seems to be the only thing most shoppers look for so i guess we cant blame them. But everyone always seems to think a grade cross will merge the best of both worlds, and never stops to consider you are just as likely to get the bad of both breeds.


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## Nightside (Nov 11, 2012)

A grade, to me, is a horse with an unknown or indistinguishable breed. In my area, most people call a horse of unknown lineage a quarter horse, since they come in so many types, and grade seems to make people think of some cruddy little horse. Not saying that is opinion at all. My best horse was a grade, and my gentlest horse now is a grade.

I also have no problem with people breeding grades. We can all admit that there is plenty of poorly built, dingbat horses whose only selling point is papers. I would rather somebody breed honest, working grades than a bunch of, say, halter bred horses you can't even ride. 

As long as you are breeding with an ounce of sense and a plan, go for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I think grades can be great horses. In fact I own 3 now (or 4 - some consider mustangs grades too). 1 - we know the breed, just not all the bloodline info and no papers due to unfortunately circumstances so it makes her a grade, 2 - we know he is a draft cross of somesort but that is it - anything else is purely a guess, and 3 - Haven't a clue what he is and guesses are wide and varied.

They are all great horses in their way, but I would never breed any of them. 

I think with the current economy and horse market that any breeding - purebred or cross or grade - really needs to be well thought out and with an end purpose in mind. Breeding just for color is not acceptable. Breeding just because it can be bred is not acceptable. But if someone has a set reason for breeding two horses with a goal and its well planned out and the two horses in question would both be considered to have good conformations and temperments by most knowledgeable horse people - then I really don't think there is much say either way.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I also have 2 grades-one was purposely bred by a reputable sporthorse breeder who was actually very successful at it -the other we think is a PMU-or unknown lineage. I would never consider breeding either of them. I totally agree with breeding known (registered traceable lineage) quantities to get a nice cross, like ASH's, and "american warmbloods", but I have little to no patience for some of the folks on here who breed because of terminal stupidity. By that I mean "Little Suzie wants another pwetty poneh just like the one she has that is so sweet"......or who don't know enough to seperate male horses from female horses...then act surprised when the female (I am using those terms because some of them do!) is looking fat.

Guess what I am saying is I can't fix stupid as much as I want to.......and there seems to be more than enough in the backyard breeders.

I love my grades-I also love SOME registered horses. However, I have just as little patience for folks who breed registered horses who are N/H, or at high risk for LWOS as I do the backyard breeders. The way they breed some of the halter horses today is, IMO just as irresponsible, even though they are "registered". 

INTELLIGENT breeding is the key, no matter what you are putting together, with an eye to what the lineage of both parents is and what your chances are of getting the best of both.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Copperhead said:


> Grades are great horses, but I would never breed them.
> 
> Too many unwanted horses in this world. Giving them a name (registry) won't stop them from starving to death in the wrong hands.
> 
> ...


This is pretty much how I feel about it as far as it goes with my part of the horse world. Are there good grade horses out there, darn right there is but I still wouldn't be breeding them. For me it's a matter of knowing what's behind a horse, it's a lot less of a crap shoot if you have a base to judge upon. I'm also in an area of the market that grades aren't worth a dime, can't show breed shows with a cross or pick out a performance horse without knowing what is behind them. I wouldn't want a halter bred to make into a working cowhorse nor would one want a cutting bred to make into a hunter under horse. 

That being said, I haven't bred outside mares in years even though I have a stud that has a successful show record and produces fantastic offspring. I've bred 2 for myself that are keepers and that's going to be it for me for awhile. The next likely breeding here will be my filly years down the road once she has proven herself and has some earnings under her belt. After the old man is gone (hopefully not for a long time, he is my heart horse) I don't intend to stand another stud, I love my old fart but having studs is a hassle. 

I don't have issue with grades being bred in some cases and areas of the horse world as long as it is still done with a lot of research and thought. I've ridden quite a few over the years for others, as a teen I rode a few jumpers for a coach of mine that didn't have papers. In that situation papers didn't matter but like I said, not my world so it isn't appropriate for my situation. My problem with grades being bred is Joe Blow down the road that picked up a pretty colored mutt at the auction that was unfortunate enough to still have its balls and breeds every other mare they pick up cheap. 

Copperhead, the line about the baptized cats is probably the funniest statement I have read in ages and certainly fits a few I've met over the years! I'm going to file that one away for future use :lol:


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## Bellasmom (Jun 22, 2011)

To me, a grade horse is any horse without papers, including purebreds whose papers were "lost" or who were never registered in the first place. I have five horses, three registered and two grade. I would never breed ANY of them. My RMH mare is a highly desirable color, chocolate dapple with flaxen mane/tail, and is well bred, BUT she is not a good gaiting mare. My MFT is a nice mare, just not breeding quality. Got a QH mare that has been the most awesome horse we've ever had BUT you would NEVER guess she was a QH, but she's registered. I don't have anything against grade horses, I've had a bunch. But when you breed grades you generally don't know what you're going to get....you're not just crossing two individuals, you need to consider their parents & grandparents. With grades you usually don't have any info on previous generations. And people who breed purebreds and don't bother to register the foals? Shame on you! You are doing those babies a disservice. Heck, I guess I'm trying to say I wouldn't breed grade horses or most registered horses.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I agree with not breeding grades, unless there was a huge exception to the rule. If I owned a grade mare that I competed on, who ended up with a spectacular show record, and I wanted the foal for my self, I might concider it. 99.9% of the time, NO.

I have two registered mares now, but I have owned many grades, they can be just as amazing as their registered counter parts.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

I think a big concern lies in the health of the genetic past. The horse itself may be healthy, but you don't know what genetic diseases it may have. On a papered horse, you could look back in the lineage and see if something ran in the lines, and make an educated decision.

Papered horses are bred who carry genetic illnesses right now too, but at least the consumer (person who buys the foal) will have knowledge of the possible effects and make an educated decision on whether to purchase the horse.

A grade horse has none of this information, so you're not just crap-shooting for conformation and temperment, you're taking a gamble with genetic diseases and conditions as well.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm with Bella - any horse without papers, irregardless if you know it's a purebred or not, is a grade. 
And I cannot think of any justifiable excuse, irregardless of temperament, conformation, or that he's crapping gold nuggets, for breeding a grade horse. 
But let's keep at it and see how long it takes before a HYPP, CA, LFS, SCID, LWO positive foal gets produced. 

As for your half-Arab mare, is she a grade? Without papers, yes. If you registered her CPAR, I wouldn't consider her a grade. I also wouldn't consider her breed worthy, either. 
Not that all cross-breds shouldn't be bred. I breed Morabs - registered CPAR and CMA - but there's a market for Morabs, a 'breed' registry. You can breed two Morabs and get a 'purebred' Morab. 
I'm for SOME cross-breds, not for most. 
That might make me sound a little snobbish, but it irks me when I see a draft x Arabian x Morgan x TB - SPORTHORSE DELUXE! No, how about just a stupid breeder deluxe.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

Just to clarify...PMU does not necessarily mean grade.........my PMU is a register appendix and I has native and northern dancer on his papers.

I think grades like Mutts in dogs can be some of the best horses that the average pleasure rider can own. I have two grade mares.....one is a lovely POA pony with a fabulous jump who I would breed if I had a reason to breed.......the other is a Clyde quarter horse who I did have a reason to breed and got a lovely Holsteiner mare.

Super Nova


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

I'm not interested in ever buying another grade. I owned a grade QH and after the HYPP scare we went through with her (she was negative in the end) I'm done. 

I have zero intentions of breeding (good thing, 'cuz all I own is a gelding!) so lineage isn't a huge deal to me except KNOWING that my horse will not have any genetic diseases or abnormalities that could show up 5+ years after I bought him.

The only way I would consider a grade horse right know is if I had personally known the horse for many years, it's medical history and WHY (not what the seller is touting but the actual reason) the horse is up for sale.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

Delfina said:


> I'm not interested in ever buying another grade. I owned a grade QH and after the HYPP scare we went through with her (she was negative in the end) I'm done.
> 
> I have zero intentions of breeding (good thing, 'cuz all I own is a gelding!) so lineage isn't a huge deal to me except KNOWING that my horse will not have any genetic diseases or abnormalities that could show up 5+ years after I bought him.
> 
> The only way I would consider a grade horse right know is if I had personally known the horse for many years, it's medical history and WHY (not what the seller is touting but the actual reason) the horse is up for sale.


Having a registered quarter horse or any registered horse does not eliminate the chance of the horse having a disease.....look at all the register quarter horses out there that are HYPP. I would think having a grade quarter horse would you would have less of a chance as the gene pool is likely more diluted.

Super Nova


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

I buy lots of grade horses. I have seen people that breed their ugly bad leg mare to the grade stud down the road for $50 buck over and over and every horse hits the ground ugly with bad legs it makes me crazy. On the other had I knew a outfitter that was cross breeding draft horses with quarter horse or morgans to get strong pack horses and heavy saddle horses. They had some NICE horses. Do I like Grade horses yes, do I have a problem with breeding grade horses yes and no. Breeding horses grade or not the goal should be to put the best overall horse you can on the ground. Breeding for one or two traits over and over is never good for the over all breed. Look at the breeding that has happened when breeding for only color. Breed good horses to make the breed better. Irresponsible breeding I think is a form of animal cruelty.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

That's where you are wrong Super Nova. With so many horses NOT being registered anymore because of being H/H and those horses ares still being produced, what does that leave? A genetically defective GRADE HORSE. And horses that were found to be N/H sold without papers to hide that fact. To say a grade horse is less likely to carry genetic diseases is absolutely asinine.


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## Fourteen (Jan 8, 2013)

I do not care about papers. I have never even considered whether a horse was purebred or not when buying. I have a barn full of unregistered mutts with the best personalities and training, and pretty good conformation, save one. (But his personality makes up for his physical faults, and he's never going to be bred, so it makes no difference.)

I think that ability, health, temperment and conformation trump all other considerations when breeding. These things can only be determined after a horse has some age and miles on him/her. So I am against breeding young, untrained horses. 

I also think that whatever life you create, you are responsible for. You'd better be in a position to either a) keep that baby for life, b) find a good home if and when you are not able to keep that baby anymore, or c) take that baby back if said "good home" turns out to be less than desirable or hits hard times. That is a huge responsibility that should not be taken lightly. Thus I don't believe that the majority of breeders out there are responsible, whether they are breeding purebreds or mutts...because they cannot meet that criteria. And the glut of homeless/unwanted horses is proof.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

Super Nova said:


> Having a registered quarter horse or any registered horse does not eliminate the chance of the horse having a disease.....look at all the register quarter horses out there that are HYPP. I would think having a grade quarter horse would you would have less of a chance as the gene pool is likely more diluted.
> 
> Super Nova


Actually for me it does eliminate it because I can go through it's lineage and find out what genetic diseases are lurking BEFORE I buy it. If the horse is a descendent of Impressive, I can demand a HYPP test PRIOR to the purchase. 

Plenty of registered horses that carry HYPP and I won't be buying a single one. If I want to buy a descendent of Impressive, I am not 100% sure there are no HYPP carriers in it's lineage and the seller refuses a HYPP test prior to it's purchase, I just won't buy it.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Here's the deal for me. 

Breed registries (and their breeders, trainers, judges) have a HUGE part to play in destroying sound structure and brains of many many horses bred every year.. There are sooooooooooo many registered horses (and some quite accomplished and high priced) that shouldn't be bred because of structural defects and KNOWN genetics.

My issue is this. If somebody owns a horse .. it's their business (within the extent of the law) what they do with it. It might not be what you or I would do, but it's really their business and right.

With EDUCATION (and people don't care how much you know 'til they know how much you care) they might make a different decision next time, but it's still THEIR decision.

People can flaunt their papers all day long, but most of you would be SHOCKED to know how many papers have been tossed or given to another horse while the "registered" horse they belong to ended up at the slaughter house.

Yes, there are "too many unwanted horses now" .. but I would venture to say that some of that is caused by that "registered horse breeder", striving for that high dollar perfect horse, breeding WAY more horses than they really need to.

But again .. it's their business and right to do so.

At the end of the day, I have only myself to look at. So as long as what I do with mine is settled and ethical in MY OWN heart, I choose not to jump on the "if you breed a grade horse you are evil" bandwagon that so many people seem to ride.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I own a grade. He's a PMU out of Canada. I know he's a Percheron/paint cross. I know who his sire is (APHA Little Bit of Black) and who his dam is. I know that his sire's line includes Two Eyed Jack and, if you go back far enough, Bold Ruler, War Admiral and Man o War. I know his dam is registered with the Canadian Percheron Association. 

Does any of that change the fact that he is grade? No. 

Does it change the fact that he has great conformation, a wonderful disposition and an amazing mind? No.

It was a complete crap shoot how he'd turn out, and lucky for me, I won.

Now his half-sister, on the other hand...she's a conformational train wreck, she can be a bit of a cow, and she's none-too-bright (Aires learned to lunge in one 15 minute session as a 2yo, complete with voice commands...I'm not sure Piper knows how to lunge and she's had three different people try to teach her). They share the same sire, with the same well-known names on their pedigree, and her dam was also registered with the CPA. Her breeding was a crapshoot that failed.

The point of all this is, if the people who bred Aires and Piper could get two such different results out of virtually the same cross, how much more of a crapshoot would it be breeding two horses of unknown lineage?

There are always going to be people who see nothing more than a pretty horsie and want to breed it to make more pretty horsies. Always. When I bought Aires as a 2yo stud colt, one of the other boarders at the barn begged me not to geld him so she could breed her (train wreck) grade mare to him. When I asked why, she looked at me like I was either nuts or incredibly stupid and said "Because he's gorgeous!" I replied "You do know he's a grade, right?" She said "So? I bet people would pay $500 to breed to him." I just *facepalmed* and walked away. Some people will never get it because all they see are the dollar signs and the pretty horsie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

I have 3 grade horses, but 1 could be registered with ApHC, his sire and dam were both registered, was he NO, why, because he has a forever home with my mom and i. We know his breeding, my pap knows his breeding, but thats it. I'm still learning some of his lineage on his dams side.
As for my other 2, my mare was an auction baby, i'm learning her history, is she of quality, i'm not sure. Will i ever breed, i kick it around sometimes, i'm not going to lie, end result NO. I don't know enough of her genetic history to convince me otherwise. 
For my 2yo, i know his dam, and met his sire. But both were auction horses, i haven't the slightest clue on their breeding or genetic issues. Everyone kept telling me to keep him a stud, i looked at them like 'why?', "you can make $$ off of him standing" "the amish will buy him if you keep him stud" "he's a looker he'll throw pretty colts", my final decision GELDED!! He has no quality bred into him, it was a roll of the dice how he turned out. I know nothing of his parents past, so it was not an option. I made them mad, but overall he is my horse, and i'll do what's best for him. 
I love my 'grade' horses, some of the best i've ever worked with. 
And yes i had an opportunity to work with a double reg QH, he stood almost 17hh, not as bulky as they wanted him to be, and lack of proper training and handling tuned him into a 1200lb psycho. He was a blast to ride once he knew you weren't going to try and kill him. 
I too get annoyed when people who have reg or nonreg horses, want to breed just because they are intact, whether they have a show record or not. I know its their horse to do with, but i feel for the unborn's possible life.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

When breeding any horse IMO the most important factor should be the phenotype of the dam and sire.
The last thing I look at is a horses lineage. Breeding type to type to get a good horse IMO is the best way to get good results.
Grade or not.
There is a local Stallion who breeds several mares a year. His offspring consistently do well in ranch and rodeo events. His dam was a crop out QH no one wanted to acknowledge and was never registered. This stallion is nice and if I only wanted to breed a good ranch horse I would use him. Instead I breed the TB and QH mares here to registered QHs for the added value for resale.
One of the mares that I rescued last year is a QH she foaled after arriving. This foal is very nice and is purebred. If i knew the stallion and wanted to breed this mare ever again I would papers or not. I will retain this filly long enough to get her trained for some discipline. If she is as athletic as she appears she will have no trouble finding a home. Shalom


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Without knowing the horse's breeding though you can't know if they are breeding true to type or a, sorry for a lack of better description, a freak that more than likely wont breed true either.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

NDappy if both mare and sire have good legs, strong tendons good feet, the foal most likely will too.
I am not advocating breeding any two horses randomly. That should never be done papers or not. Shalom


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Breeding type to type to get a good horse IMO is the best way to get good results.
> Grade or not.


It was my grandfathers idea to breed my mom's mare. He looked over the stallion very well, and looked at my moms mare. We got 2 colts out of the same stud, very similar in build, stance, and attitude. They both had very nice bone, and good thick stocky/sturdy build. The oldest passed at 18, i still have his younger brother, he just turned out to be a colorless appaloosa. We were very pleased with both foals, both could have been registered, but weren't. Even though the oldest's attitude was something else at times. They both excelled at trails, parades, and whatever activity you wanted them to do. They even worked cattle and pulled plow. And yes they were bred type to type.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

I agree with the whole "there's too many horses with no homes" but:

- people who breed registered horses are still gonna breed. No question bout it. 
- there will always be irresponsible breeders out there doe both back yard breeding and breeding farms etc.

Honestly if the horse industry wasn't so horrid right now and if there wasn't solo many unwanted horses out there I wouldn't mind breeding grades.

But again. I'm not talking a huge breeding program. I'm talking if I have QH/paint/TB etc that I know their bloodlines, have hem tested and they have good confo/personality. I wouldn't mind breeding foe one or two foals maybe to add to my herd.

A quality horse that will work all say dark to dark is more important to me than breeding for papers or rwgistration/show opportunities.


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## Bellasmom (Jun 22, 2011)

I've noticed a tendency to talk about either breeding for good using horses or breeding for papers...IMO, you should breed for both. If a horse isn't sound, sane, and USEFUL it shouldn't be bred just because it's registered. By the same token, no matter how great an individual that grade horse is, the world is not going to suffer if his DNA is not passed on.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Bellasmom said:


> I've noticed a tendency to talk about either breeding for good using horses or breeding for papers...IMO, you should breed for both. If a horse isn't sound, sane, and USEFUL it shouldn't be bred just because it's registered. By the same token, no matter how great an individual that grade horse is, *the world is not going to suffer if his DNA is not passed on*.


I'm certainly glad that Theodore O'Connor's breeder didn't think like that. I just loved that little Arabian, Shetland, Thoroughbred cross.




























He didn't need no stinkin' papers!

(I know, I know .. there are ALWAYS exceptions....)


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

IMO, any horse that isn't registered by a reputable registry that tracks lineage is considered a grade. Like someone else mentioned earlier, the color registries don't mean much to me.

For me, the most important part of breeding is having an idea of what you're going to get. If you've got a grade horse but you know their lines (not _guesstimating_ on what was 5 generations back, but you know their parents and grandparents) and they are a good example of what they are, then that would be a type of grade that would be okay to breed, IMHO (given that their conformation, temperament, and ability warrants it). With them, you can look back and see what they are coming from...so you have a pretty good idea of what they'll produce.

However, those grades that nobody knows anything about, even if they have stellar conformation, are NOT okay to breed. There are some wonky looking horses out there that somehow manage to produce a foal that isn't a mutant. That doesn't mean the foal _isn't_ carrying the genes to produce a roach backed, knock-kneed, sickle hocked, straight shouldered monstrosity.

All that being said, with the market like it is, folks should only be breeding the absolute best they can...which includes them being able to boast good training, a good mind, the ability to be proficient at some discipline (not necessarily a show record, but proof they are good at something), great conformation, and PAPERS.

With things as they are, I can buy a registered horse with good lines for less than $500...and I'll know exactly what I'm getting. Why would I want to pay money for some horse that may (or may not) have a good mind...or may (or may not) have any natural physical ability for what I do....may (or may not) have some potential genetic thing that will cause poor health or lameness tomorrow.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

Because the grades (except here in rich people ville). Are selling for like $50 bucks. People are like mass producing them, getting these horrid confo horses and just selling em and selling em making a quick buck here and there.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Many good points stated so far (including Golden's "So.." points). I have nothing more to say than when growing up, I had heard horses categorized as purebred, grade (having one purebred parent) and scrub (no purebred parents). The term 'scrub' (which seems to have gone out of vogue) was an apt one for those horses I remember that fit into that category as they were usually conformationally challenged. Despite that they were still used and frequently seen out in the pastures.

I would also like to add I rather like the testing thing that happens in Europe - to judge acceptable stallions for registry. Does everyone believe it helps the purebreds? Is it workable in North America? Would it help the grades and scrubs here?


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## Bellasmom (Jun 22, 2011)

Yes, Theodore O'Connor was grade....but not the result of BREEDING grades. His pedigree is known back many generations, result of a long term carefully planned breeding program with a specific goal.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

... and he was UNREGISTERABLE *gasp* with any purebred breed registry.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Chevaux said:


> Many good points stated so far (including Golden's "So.." points). I have nothing more to say than when growing up, I had heard horses categorized as purebred, grade (having one purebred parent) and scrub (no purebred parents). The term 'scrub' (which seems to have gone out of vogue) was an apt one for those horses I remember that fit into that category as they were usually conformationally challenged. Despite that they were still used and frequently seen out in the pastures.
> 
> I would also like to add I rather like the testing thing that happens in Europe - to judge acceptable stallions for registry. Does everyone believe it helps the purebreds? Is it workable in North America? Would it help the grades and scrubs here?


I think it's a nice wish...but it isn't really feasible here. There is so much country and, as it is right now, everyone and their uncle owns a stud or 12 and at least 1 mare. There just isn't the budget or the willingness to do that.

Plus, if a horse had to be graded in order to be "qualified" to breed, then I would think they would have certain health and conformation requirements...which would completely rule out 3/4 of the halter horse population. There's just too much money in that and all that money would be in opposition of any sort of testing/judgment.

Not only that, but I think it's each person's own individual responsibility to ensure that they are breeding the very best stock they can. I don't want some government official who's never even _handled _a horse telling me that I can't breed my horse because it may not live up to _his _interpretation of the standards that are set in some rule book.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Chevaux said:


> I would also like to add I rather like the testing thing that happens in Europe - to judge acceptable stallions for registry. Does everyone believe it helps the purebreds? Is it workable in North America? Would it help the grades and scrubs here?


To the idea of whose standards?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

There are over 7 million horses in America more now than ever before. The US is too large and its diverse horse population would not allow for much government oversight. That and we Americans are not going to ever allow someone to tell one of us our horse is not suitable. Shalom


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> To the idea of whose standards?


 
And that is the million dollar question isn't it? For every answer that I could come up with, I would have ten more questions. I think the standard should be as objective as possible but who suggests the testing points? Current owners and breeders? Potential buyers? Recognized experts in the field? All of those? Are the standards the original ideals when the breed was developed or are they how the breed has evolved to today?


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Chevaux said:


> And that is the million dollar question isn't it? For every answer that I could come up with, I would have ten more questions. I think the standard should be as objective as possible but who suggests the testing points? Current owners and breeders? Potential buyers? Recognized experts in the field? All of those? Are the standards the original ideals when the breed was developed or are they how the breed has evolved to today?


Exactly...LOL
My one stallion would probably get Warmblood approved, but I don't think any of my mares would, as they aren't built like that...type. 
So while I breed to the best conformationally, am aware of any genetic conditions lurking in my horses past (because I know their heritage - my big thing against breeding grades), and apply for all their registrations, I'm highly against someone telling me that my type of Arabian (or Quarter Horse, TB, etc) isn't acceptable because it's conformed to cut a cow rather then jump a fence. 
Breeding SHOULD, theoretically, be a common sense practice. It's just a shame too many people have lost theirs somewhere along the way.


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## MissColors (Jul 17, 2011)

My definition is 3-4 or more breeds(it really depends on the breed). So like 1/4 quarter horse, 1/4 arabian, (now makes a quarab), 1/4 welsh pony, 1/4 paint. Somethin like that. If you can trace its definition to just two horses like an appaloosa quarterhorse I call that a cross. I can see each of the defining trait from each side with out cause of difficulty. Once it gets to guessing.... Grade.


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

smrobs said:


> With things as they are, I can buy a registered horse with good lines for less than $500...and I'll know exactly what I'm getting. Why would I want to pay money for some horse that may (or may not) have a good mind...or may (or may not) have any natural physical ability for what I do....may (or may not) have some potential genetic thing that will cause poor health or lameness tomorrow.


I guess the thing I don't get is THIS.

How do papers guarantee a good mind, immunity to lameness, and physical ability?

I'll admit, I openly stand on the side of pro-grade. I've worked with perhaps hundreds of horses in my lifetime and I'd say that around 5% of them were registered.

I know a guy who breeds grades. They're so mixed that he has no idea what percentage of what breed is in them anymore except that his stud is a draft/morgan cross (mostly). You look at his herd of 60-70 horses, and they are ALL carbon copies. Tell me that those grades aren't breeding true?

My mare came off of a stud from that herd, and a half Arabian dam. I'll admit, I don't know what the non-Arab 50% of River's dam was. However, she really does look EXACTLY what you'd imagine a cross between her sire and dam to look like. I'd still consider that to be breeding true. She has the temperament, a good using build, and (most importantly in my mind) has never been lame a single day in her 14 years. 14 years of living on the range for part of the year and then plain ol' hay and nothing but barefeet her whole life. I don't see how anyone can argue that she is a horse that never should have been?

I think that ANY breeder needs to have a plan of what they want to achieve in breeding. I don't see how the person who plans a well-thought-out grade breeding deserves to be shunned more than the person who churns out 20 registered QH's, Arabs, Paints, WHATEVER in a year while searching for that one in a hundred "ideal" foals.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

SnowCowgirl said:


> I guess the thing I don't get is THIS.
> 
> How do papers guarantee a good mind, immunity to lameness, and physical ability?
> 
> ...


Did you _read_ the thread? The consensus is that folks who are considering breeding need to go about it responsibly and consider all factors. They need to know the history of the horse they are breeding and their bloodlines so they have an idea of what to expect.

What folks are against are those people who take home a mare from the auction who happens to be a purty color and they decide they want to breed her to the purty colored stud from down the road. It doesn't matter to them that neither horse has accomplished anything in their life beyond turning grass into poop. It doesn't matter to them that the mare is lame for some mysterious reason or that the stud has a s***ty temperament.

THAT'S the type of breeder folks have problems with...and there are just as many people who breed registered horses that do the same **** thing, but at least with a registered horse, if their temperament is nasty, like their parents and grandparents, you can bet on a nasty tempered foal.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I agree that nasty temperament gets passed along with everything else. I don't appreciate the fact that nasty temperament in a grade horse is not tolerated but a nasty temperament in a pure bred horse is. I think a horse needs a good, willing mind as much if not more than a good and willing body or papers. At the end of the day, we have horses to enjoy them, if we work with them its because we chose too. Most of us are not working around horses all day and they are not a deep part of our daily survival. As a result, we have sort of left that good willing mind and temperament off the equation. Which in my opinion is unfortunate. 

I don't have a strong opinion on people breeding grades versus purebreds. I think its just as bad to breed a poorly conformed purebred horse to another poorly conformed purebred. I have reached the point where its all good to me, as long as you take care of what you put on the ground. Foals are really cute for about 6 months then they get to be a lot of attitude and work. If you are not interested in dealing with and working through that attitude and work don't breed. 

No one out there believes they are breeding poor quality horses even if everyone else in the room says they are. You can't stop them from breeding but if everyone made the commitment to take care of what they put on the ground we would be better. I don't consider dumping your rank un-handled 2 year old at the auction house to be taking care of what you put on the ground. You brought it into the world, its your job to make sure its well cared for and not surrender it to unknown fates. Thats just the opinion of someone who has a whole bunch of homebred racing flunkies who are all great personalities and trail horses but would have easily ended up in dog food cans.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

SnowCowgirl said:


> I think that ANY breeder needs to have a plan of what they want to achieve in breeding. I don't see how the person who plans a well-thought-out grade breeding deserves to be shunned more than the person who churns out 20 registered QH's, Arabs, Paints, WHATEVER in a year while searching for that one in a hundred "ideal" foals.


I totally agree that ANY breeder needs to have a plan of what they want to achieve, and every breeding should be carefully considered, both in terms of what you are likely to produce and WHY you are putting a foal on the ground at all.

The worst offenders of all are probably those who will shortly be advertising cheap prices on yearlings to make room for the new foal crop that is coming, if you are having to short sell to make room for new ones, it should be a clue that you should miss a year or two.

The key bit of it though is many 'personal' breedings don't _appear_ to be so well thought out, apart from the fact that two sets of functioning reproductive organs makes a cute and pretty foal.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

This one is a hard one for me being that I grew up with ranch horses that were mutts and were awesome then rode show horses that were well bred(but maybe not a great cross?) and couldn't hold a candle to a mutt that I have ridden before and the reverse holds true as well.

I believe in hybrid vigor(although not promoted in horse breeding like breeding commercial cattle) and have no problem with buying a good grade horse. 
But it is a lot like meeting a potential boyfriend, at first glance you want him to have the bloodlines and the whole pretty package, but if he doesn't, then you test him out and he works just as good your okay with it.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

My heart horse was a grade, she was most likely a well bred purebred Arabian that was hauled to auction when the Arabian market crashed when the tax sheltering on Arabians was removed and many breeders went bankrupt when their income was no longer considered artwork. My mom picked up 2 long yearling fillies that were so starved that they couldn't hold their heads up and the meat man didn't want them either. They turned out to be the most wonderful horses money could buy (and my mom bought them for $50 each), all they needed was proper care and feeding. We rode them in 4-H shows, in both pleasure and games, went on week long camping/riding trips across the country. One year, a local 4-H club was doing a class on breed judging and asked to borrow to two grade mares because they were short on a selection of Arabians to judge. Even though they didn't have a single paper to their names, they were used so they had 5 horses to judge for Arab type, instead of just 3. What is very interesting is that both grade mares were unanimous as 1st and 2nd place for conformation and type against the registered stock. Many arabian breeders have tried to guess their lineage but their is no way to tell. Even though they were grade, they were bred, but bred to registered stock with known lineage. Even though they were both bred to a quarter horse stud and each had 2 babies by him that were unregistered, the babies grew into beautiful horses with beautiful conformation, turned heads and showed what a quarab could be. Sadly, my heart horse was struck by lightning when she was 10 yrs old, I was devastated by the loss. She would be 28 if she were alive today, just like the other grade mare is now. 

Most grade horses shouldn't be bred, the same is true for most registered horses as well. Whether you are breeding registered or grade horses, the breeding needs to be carefully thought out. Not just because they have the parts and/or papers, but considering their complete conformation, picking at every little fault of both mare and stallion, their temperament, trainability, what they are useful at doing, and if you can afford to take care of them for the rest of their life. 

Even with knowing all the bloodlines of the horse, there is a chance that something will crop up that wasn't in either sire or dam, or at least wasn't noticeable. It is just a much greater risk that something will appear when breeding 2 horses with unknown genetic histories. Every mix of horse genetics is unique and different, you cannot know what the exact results will be. Too many ingredients go into the genetic soup, but when you breed grades with unknown bloodlines, you are wearing a blindfold while adding ingredients to the soup. You could get a very nice combination, but it could get ugly fast. Same with registered horses, some ingredients should not be mixed and/or used, but if you study up on the ingredients, you can make more educated guesses on what should not be used and combined. Unfortunately, too many breeders believe that so long as the horses are registered, they can make great registered stock. So we see a flood of horses that are registered, or registerable but the breeder doesn't want to pay to register their babies when it is the cheapest, and not all that great looking, not adding to the quality of the breed, only the quantity. 

Even though my family bred grades decades ago, (grand total of 5 grade foals from 1988-91), we now breed for registered stock (grand total of 5 from 1994-2012). Not only for the value of the paper, but the value of the horse's genealogy, the history of what they were bred for, and careful consideration to what they could contribute as an individual. 

Careless breeding of unregistered or registered stock is a huge problem, doesn't matter if they are a top producing barn or a backyard hoarder, every foal is cute and can be sold as an adorable little baby, but what happens after that? What are they really bred to do? What kind of thought and planning went into getting the baby there? 

A well put together grade with beautiful movement and a great mind can be sold for more than the average registered stock, even on the auction block. But what are the chances that you can add any two horses together and get a good outcome? Breeding is a gamble, you just have much greater odds at winning IF you play your cards right by careful study and research, and of course, stacking the deck in your favor.


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## AriatChick772 (Feb 13, 2013)

I have ridden and worked barrel horses bred out of this world, cow horses, thoroughbreds and Arabians, but not ONE horse I've ridden in my life can compare to my little grade quarter horse gelding. He's supposedly from registered stock but who knows. 

He's hard to beat on barrels, handy around cows, I give riding lessons on him. He's the bravest, most athletic, and honest horse I've ever been on. If I had an opportunity to breed him, would I?

Abso-freakin-lutely

And I would keep his offspring forever.

Now would I breed any other grade horse that hasn't proven themselves? No. But I don't even like the breeding of registered stock that hasn't proven themselves. I don't care if it's the own daughter of Frenchman's Guy and is a pretty Palomino with a ton of chrome and built like her daddy, if she's loopy, she won't get bred.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

I have a Quarab mare. I bred her to an AQHA stallion. I have known the stallion since he was born and put a bit of time on him for the owner as a reining foundation when he was young. I rode off about half my stud fee that way. I ADORE my mare in every way, shape and form. She isn't the most beautiful horse, or absolutely perfect confo wise. But she has a huge heart, lots of athletic ability, stamina and a great head on her shoulders. I know both my mare, and the stallion very well. He wasn't just a pretty horse in a magazine that I wanted to breed my mare to. I put a lot of thought into what stallion I wanted to breed to. Just happened to be a plus that he's a sooty palomino ;P
I chose to breed my mare simply because I wanted HER baby if anything should ever happen to her. I don't plan on selling my filly, I plan on keeping her until she dies. The same with my mare. I think there should be more thought and planning brought into breeding. I don't think I will ever breed my mare again. There are too many other horses out there dying of starvation for me to be adding to the numbers. Even though I don't sell horses, that's one less horse I COULD potentially save from neglect or abuse.


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

well, I couldn't figure out how to quote a quote lol so here goes:

_They don't. I never said there was any guarantee. BUT, if parents and grandparents and great-grandparents were all very trainable with good minds, then odds are the resulting foal will be too. There are always exceptions, but it's not as much of a crapshoot if you know the temperament that runs in the lines. If parents/gparents/ggparents all were bred and had an affinity for working cattle, then odds are the foal will too._

I was being nitpicky  they way you worded it was that you could take your $500, head down the road and buy a papered horse, and end up with a horse who will have all of the above qualities. 

_ You breed a mutt to a mutt for enough generations and sooner or later, they are all going to start looking the same. Not sure what you're point is.

My question is, what are those horses good at? Do they work cattle? Do they do dressage? Do they jump? Are they good at cutting? Do they excel at driving? How much do they commonly sell for?_

These horses have been bred for years for sturdiness, to be stockily built but usable, lack of any lameness issues, big solid hard feet, good temperaments, the ability to be VERY easy keeping (they winter in the bush with zero human contact.. and the area borders Alaska, to show how far north we are). You cannot buy just any horse (registered ANYTHING or not), throw them out in that situation, and expect them to live never mind thrive and do well at the work. They are bred for using - hard riding and packing every day in the wilderness and mountains. They are bred to look and act the way that they do. I realize they will never become a "breed", but is this not how breeds begin? Or does this breeding program not count because they're grades at this point in time? (like any "breed" is before it becomes established)

And you ask what they sell for - depends. An unbroke 2/3 year old will go for around $1000, an older horse who is broke to ride and pack will easily go up to $3500. Horses like that are in high demand up here, not only for work but I've seen several in the local show ring  Not their "natural environment", but they do just fine. A friend of mine placed all-around high point at the biggest show of the year up here on one of these horses a few years back.

The topic of this discussion is, after all, breeding grades is it not? There is responsible and then, yes, there is the person who picks up a pretty mare at auction and breeds her. I'm just trying to present the side of a responsible grade breeder.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I accepted a mustang mare last year for an outside breeding to my 
Arabian stallion.
the owners want an all round prospect but especially an endurance horse.
This mare has very good spainish type. She is I believe a registered Spainish Barb Short back, good legs, hard feet and endurance coupled with a very calm receptive mind.
We do not know what they will get yet since the sire and dam have similar builds and the foal will be registered as a half arab I think the chances are very good that the pair will produce a nice foal. Shalom


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

I would not breed just any grade horse. My mare, I would have bred. She was an exception, not the rule. She is pretty, talented, has a great temperament, and great conformation. She's a tad cow hocked and a little long in the back, but other than that she's very nice. Originally from North Carolina, she was supposedly registered but her papers were "lost". I've used her for barrels/poles/gymkhana, which she excels at, cleaning up at most of the shows we went to. She's nearly unflappable on trail, goes over, through and in everything. I've played around with jumping, she would have done decently at it, if not very well. We've done team penning and sorting, which she absolutely loves and excels at. She's quick, catty, can turn and stop on a dime, and all around the best horse I've ever ridden. I've also used her for beginner lessons and pony rides. She's a one in a million mare. 

I wish I had bred her, because now it's too late. I was young when I was considering it, and didn't want to take a year or so off from showing. I regret it completely. I can't even ride her, save for a short walk around the yard. 

However, like I said, she's the exception. Any other grade horse and I would say NO WAY.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Problem is, WAY too many folks think their horse is "special" and should be duplicated.......


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> Problem is, WAY too many folks think their horse is "special" and should be duplicated.......



Whatever...my horses are super speshull....just in a short bus kind of way...LOL!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

LOL, Chick, I savvy that. Only problem....my short bus horse is too big to fit in the bus :?.

Good thing he's already a gelding.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

Been thinking about this thread on and off for a couple of days now trying to find my own definition. 

To me - a grade horse is a horse who's lineage can't be traced. A grade horse is also a mix of breeds even if you CAN trace lineage if there is no current/established LONG TERM registration for them. I don't consider say Anglo Arabs, Appendix, etc as grade. I also don't consider these different crosses such as Friesian/QH to be anything other than a grade horse that someone wants big money for. Sort of like designer dogs :wink: Who knew that labradoodle mut I had as a kid that I got from the humane society could bring me so much cash today!

Far as breeding ... I really don't feel I can soap box much on that. I do prefer to know where my horses came from. I don't discount grades other than don't try to sell me some fancy schmancy named "grade" for 20K because I'm not buying it  The reason I don't feel I can soap box anything in reference to breeding is because of the current state of Quarter Horses, Arabians, Morgans that are now translated into some kind of odd looking hippo, giraffe and Arabian wannabe.

Would I breed a grade horse? No. For many many reasons. But if someone comes on this forum and posts about their pregnant grade mare that is giving them excitement for XYZ reason, then I have no place to comment other than wish them well. They didn't ask for an opinion and I'm not going to give it. You know what they say about opinions :wink:. If someone ASKED first, then that's a different story. But usually they don't and you have what you have and giving that unsolicited opinion isn't going to help much.

All IMHO of course.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I think alot of problems stem from people breeding their horse register or grade as they are blind on the horse's shortcomings.People very often are donning their rosecolored glasses when looking at what they are breeding:-( .They are breeding with there heart not head or thinking a quick profit:wink:. Sometime or maybe very often actually people are not educated enough on recognizing good conformation,pedigree,breed types,genetic diseases etc. They think they are in the know,but really little do they know...
Learning about horses is ongoing process,some come to that with open mind others...well lets just say not so much:lol: It is good to have a more knowledgeable mentor to learn from,but sometimes those so called mentors are on much the same level as the person,so growing in your knowledge can be difficult/non productive:-(
I have only bred register horses but I don't frown on those that will breed a grade horse. I have seen some nice foals come from Grade mares{crossed on Registered stallions},appropriate crosses can work & several those crosses can result in a foal that can be register:wink:.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

franknbeans said:


> Problem is, WAY too many folks think their horse is "special" and should be duplicated.......


'Specially 'cause itz gotz paperzzzzz ...


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## Nightside (Nov 11, 2012)

I agree with the rose colored glasses thing and this goes for registered, grade, and everything in between. On the other hand, I would also say that a good horse does not look the same to any two people. Some people may not see why you'd want a 15 hand, stocky horse the same as I wouldn't want a finely built horse, large or small. As long as whatever people are breeding don't have crippling flaws, go for it. I know nin my case it would be much simpler to pay the 300 dollar stud fee to get a draft cross foal from my tallest, heaviest mare than to spend as many months searching for a horse that fits the goal I would have in mind. Despite the horse market being in the toilet, draft crosses are like designer dogs here, and prices are jacked way up as a result, and even then, there is no guarantee that whoever started that horse/foal wasn't a complete idiot that let it get away with murder.

As far as people wanting to breed their grade to keep a foal from it, so be it. The fact of the matter is I don't think anyone here would bet their life that they could keep every horse they have until it passed on, so using that against the people who want their own foal is being a little hypocritical. Anything can happen to anybody, and if it ends up on the meat buyers trailer after an auction, that is on their conscience. 

My bottom line is this. Unless you are paying my bills, don't tell me what to do with my animals. We can try to point people in the right direction as far as genetic diseases and pregnant mare care, but being vicious and demanding reasoning for why they bred Snookums is a bit over the top and more likely to drive them off than make them see the light. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Nightside said:


> I know nin my case it would be much simpler to pay the 300 dollar stud fee to get a draft cross foal from my tallest, heaviest mare than to spend as many months searching for a horse that fits the goal I would have in mind.


But you have no idea if the one you get is going to fit the goal you have in mind.

This was brought home to me when I was idly looking for studs for Willow, when I looked at the stud fee for anything I wanted, then looked at the 'on the ground price' for a foal or a youngster of similar type, well it just made a nonsense of breeding her. I could go through all that worry and expense, risk losing mare, foal or both, and still end up with the worst traits of both parents and I foal I hated.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> My bottom line is this. Unless you are paying my bills, don't tell me what to do with my animals


On the one hand I agree, especially on the internet, where you dont know all the facts. Its often better to give someone the benifit of the doubt and helpful advice. On the other hand, there are some cases where things do need to be said. If someone post pictures of their unregistered, 2 year old mare with wonky legs thats poorly put together, and says they are going to cross it with its buckskin colored half brother,neither of whom have ever seen a vet or been dewormed, likely the responses wont all be possitive. Same thing with the person who cant afford vet bills, but posts pictures of their 10 grade foals they bred this spring, "arnt they kuute???". If it obviously bad for the animals/ creating an animal with no future or marketability, people who care will most likely say something.


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## Nightside (Nov 11, 2012)

No, but if I'm looking for a draft or draft cross anyway, you aren't likely to know what you'll get from someone else's draft/whatever cross foal either. Foals go through plenty of wonky stages so what might look nice as a weanling could look real silly as a 3 year old. Not only that, there are more reasons than outward physical appearance that a foal would turn out unsuitable. Most of the ads I see are for yearlings that someone bought from a breeder and got bored/tired of/were unable to handle, or aren't properly cared for. At least I know with my own foal, it won't flip itself over and snap its neck when I go to give it a bath because nobody ever mentioned they used to beat the horse with a hose. Not my case, but a very good friend had that happen.

I'm just saying, I understand why even us slightly educated folks can see why people breed horses without a mile of show records, papers, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I agree that I think a "Grade" is a horse without lineage or papers. That's tricky for partbreds because although you can register a horse Half-Arab, it only proves one side of the pedigree. However, at least with SOME papers, you can determine things like birthdate, origin and one half of the pedigree. 

I own an Arabian and a Paint that are both "Grade". I've been informed of their lineage, for the most part, but there is no proof. They both look enough like their suggested breeds that it's easier to just say "unregistered Arab" then "Grade" and have to explain it to people. In my experience, people only usually use the term "Grade" or "Heinz 57" when they have NO idea what their horse is or where s/he came from. 

Also, for the amount of idiots in my area that will breed ANYTHING with papers (Quarter Horses and Paints mostly), I would FAR rather see a well thought out mating between two oustanding Grades then I would these morons mass producing "registerable" crap and trying to unload them every fall for $500 a pop. No vet care, no proper health care, no genetic testing, just breeding willy nilly and half the time they probably aren't even 100% on which one is the sire! Someone just posted an ad on Kijiji to unload THIRTEEN yearlings because suddenly "we don't have time to train them." Oh I'm sorry, were you Superman and lost your super powers that you lived in a world where you originally believed you could train 13 horses to make them suitable mounts? Like what exactly happened that you thought producing 13 bottom of the barrel Quarter Horses was a good idea? I swear if you live in Manitoba and have some land, you MUST breed Quarter Horses that have done absolutely nothing in their lives! I guess $500 a pop for 20 weanlings a year can be a profit when you don't spend a plugged nickel on any sort of even REMOTE pregnancy care or food. Ugh. 

/soapbox

Yay Grades! LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Nightside (Nov 11, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> On the one hand I agree, especially on the internet, where you dont know all the facts. Its often better to give someone the benifit of the doubt and helpful advice. On the other hand, there are some cases where things do need to be said. If someone post pictures of their unregistered, 2 year old mare with wonky legs thats poorly put together, and says they are going to cross it with its buckskin colored half brother,neither of whom have ever seen a vet or been dewormed, likely the responses wont all be possitive. Same thing with the person who cant afford vet bills, but posts pictures of their 10 grade foals they bred this spring, "arnt they kuute???". If it obviously bad for the animals/ creating an animal with no future or marketability, people who care will most likely say something.


I'm not saying you can't make suggestions but that's all you can really do on the internet. Most of the threads I see are mares that are close to foaling so all you can do is suggest their horse may have a few faults and wish them luck, as some will surely need it. I guess I don't see the point in beating someone over the head, souring them from asking questions or looking at other breeding information so maybe next time they make a better decision. Otherwise they just seem to get defensive and stubborn, and determined to prove that Snookums baby is the best ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

rookie said:


> I agree that nasty temperament gets passed along with everything else. I don't appreciate the fact that nasty temperament in a grade horse is not tolerated but a nasty temperament in a pure bred horse is. .


Not true.
This depends on the breeder.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> Not true.
> This depends on the breeder.


Definitely.

And I would like to clarify my post of earlier. When I reference breeders of Arabian, Quarter Horses, Morgans, I wish to make it perfectly clear I'm not speaking of all breeders. I mean WOW we have some fantastic lines being carried on and good breeders on this board. These are the breeders who take care, study and produce some quality horses. They have my admiration, respect and big THANK YOU for doing it the right way.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

This is an interesting topic for sure! I'm always up for a good debate.

I've noticed that some people have mentioned they don't necessarily consider the colour registries as reliable registries, and I'm curious to know why that is. 

As an example, I'll use the Pinto Registries (Canadian, American, etc.) . If someone bred a registered Paint to a registered horse whose breed is not eligible under Paint regulations (so any breed that's not QH, Paint or JC registered), said foal would have to register Pinto. 

I also know of a few people, here in Canada, who choose to register their APHA progeny with the Canadian Pinto Association so they can show in the National Pinto Circuit here. 

Is the reason colour registries are not as "legitimate" as other registries because sometimes you can register in these horses without having record of parentage based solely on their colour? I've seen this mentioned a few times in this thread, so I'd like to know the reasoning behind it.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

A majority of the color registries are a waste of money. Palomino, buckskin and the like. they don't care about the horses for the most part. They only care about the money they receive from registration. I don't count the PtHA in that in that they have an extremely active calendar and try and promote and keep events open for its members.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Glynnis said:


> I also know of a few people, here in Canada, who choose to register their APHA progeny with the Canadian Pinto Association so they can show in the National Pinto Circuit here.
> 
> Is the reason colour registries are not as "legitimate" as other registries because sometimes you can register in these horses without having record of parentage based solely on their colour? I've seen this mentioned a few times in this thread, so I'd like to know the reasoning behind it.



A great example for the Palomino Registry... I know of a few Arabians registered with them. And they don't even CARRY cream genes. I have no issue with it, but that's why they aren't legitimate. Anything can be registered if it looks right.

PtHA, I have a few mares (purebred Arabians) I'd like to registered and show on the PtHA circut (one, it's WAY cheaper, and two, why not? LOL). 
Once again, any breed can be registered PtHA so long as they meet the colour requirement, but as NDAppy said, at least they have a decent show string, etc.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> A majority of the color registries are a waste of money. Palomino, buckskin and the like. they don't care about the horses for the most part. They only care about the money they receive from registration. I don't count the PtHA in that in that they have an extremely active calendar and try and promote and keep events open for its members.


Gotcha. I don't know a heck of a lot about the other colour registries which is why I used the Pinto one as an example.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't consider them adequate registrations only in regards to breeding...because color registries, as mentioned, will take pretty much any horse regardless of breed.

So, my little inbred filly that I've got can technically be "registered" with the PtHA because she has high whites and a decent sized belly splash...but those "papers" still aren't tracking her lineage...which is the main need in regards to breeding.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

If one were to register a horse in the Pali Horse registry....what if they had the papers to both dam and sire and could supply the lineage. Would the registry apply that to the horse who is being registered with them?
I've never "color" registered a horse. But I have tossed around the idea of registering my grade filly. As I said earlier, I've known her sire his whole life and obviously I own her dam. I would just like to get both sides of her lineage on one paper. Makes my life easier and more organized I suppose.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

The problem with the palomino registry is they only register palomino or palomino appearing horses. Breed two together and the offspring may or may not be eligible for papers based on their color. 

PtHA gives papers to offspring of the horses registered with them.


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

Just wanted to say - this is a really great thread. I've seen some really great arguments both for and against which is awesome.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I see nothing wrong with breeding FOR grades...Araloosas and Quarabs, for example, when properly bred, are (with exceptions) stronger than Arabs and have more endurance than Quarterhorses or Appys, so are excellent trail horses in rugged terrain, and in some cases crosses can "de-specialize" a breed and result in a more versatile horse - it all depends upon the cross you are breeding. But I do not favor using grade horses of unknown ancestry as breeding stock. One of the primary caveats of breeding is you shouldn't breed if you don't have a reasonable expectation of the product, and you have no idea with a horse of unknown ancestry what the product will be, or even if the horse reflects its breeding or is anomalous to its breeding, and a horse that is not true to its breeding cannot reasonably be expected to breed true itself...


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

Army wife said:


> If one were to register a horse in the Pali Horse registry....what if they had the papers to both dam and sire and could supply the lineage. Would the registry apply that to the horse who is being registered with them?
> I've never "color" registered a horse. But I have tossed around the idea of registering my grade filly. As I said earlier, I've known her sire his whole life and obviously I own her dam. I would just like to get both sides of her lineage on one paper. Makes my life easier and more organized I suppose.


If I remember correctly if lineage is provided it will be put on the registration. 

There's different rules and exception s to that (like in Charlie's case where we don't even know he sire). But I think I remember the rules saying the pedigree will be included and traceable


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