# You can do a lot for hurting horses!



## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

A great New Year's resolution is to take a bit of time to sign those online petitions & letters to legislators, make calls, & donate as you can to stop BLM roundups & BLM disruption of herds by giving birth control to Mustang mares (Ginger Kathrens & Cloud sites), wild horse racing, etc.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Have you ever seen wild horses lying dead due to starvation and thirst? BLM has to round up horses to stop them from dying on the range. Giving birth control to mares would be a great thing, they can control the size of the herds and still let some run.
I love horses and anything to do with them, but there has to be control of them. Just like reopening the slaughter plants, horses could be used for good instead of letting them die from neglect. Out here in Wyoming and it is happening in Utah and Idaho also, instead of having a place to send horses, whether sick, dying, untrainable, etc they are turning them loose on the desert and open ranges figuring the horses can fend for themselves. 
I won't sign petitions to stop roundups, sterilize horses or stop slaughter houses from reopening. We need them as long as people will keep breeding unwanted horses just to experience the "fun of having a foal" from non breeding quality mares and non breeding quality stallions.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

wyominggrandma said:


> Have you ever seen wild horses lying dead due to starvation and thirst? BLM has to round up horses to stop them from dying on the range. Giving birth control to mares would be a great thing, they can control the size of the herds and still let some run.
> I won't sign petitions to stop roundups, sterilize horses or stop slaughter houses from reopening. We need them as long as people will keep breeding unwanted horses just to experience the "fun of having a foal" from non breeding quality mares and non breeding quality stallions.


Quoted for truth. 
There is a reason behind the roundups and birth control, and it's in the horses' interest.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I do hope that WG & JDI expect folks to do their own research & arrive at their own conclusions!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Would you prefer that the BLM's overpopulate and suffer a long, agonizing death due to starvation due to lack of grazing area? 
There's an overpopulation of horses in the world, and nobody's doing a thing about the cause - irresponsible breeding. It's all about control after the fact. 
You're allowed your opinion, Northern, and I am allowed mine. I sure do hope that folks research the facts from reputable sources, not emotionally-driven drivel, and arrive at their own conclusions.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

I am not American, so I can't comment on the issue with your mustangs. 

But.

Our brumby problem is at the point where, while some are rounded up via helicopter and shipped to select trainers (there is one about 5 minutes away from me), others are simply shot.

Of course as a horse lover I would much prefer that they could all be brought in, trained and re-homed. That just is not an option. Too many people are full up on rescues already. And the average joe horse owner does not have the knowledge or skills to continue the work with a newly captive horse.

I can not see how round ups are a problem, when over here we are at the point where they have to be culled.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

I agree with WG and JDI.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Yep, I expect people to do their own research and have their own opinion, just as I expect people not to sign a petition or many petitions for stopping horse sterilization, stopping roundups and not reopening slaughter plants until they do research. Real research, not just the garbage that PETA and all the other humaniacs put out to "help animals" and show the cruelty of roundups , etc and not show what happens when people turn their horses loose to fend for themselves, or let them starve to death because they are sick and no longer want to feed them, or give them away because they are dangerous animals and someone gets hurt because there is nothing else to do with them anymore. No emotions, just the honest truth.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I'll add that Ginger Kathren's sites are a good place to start; she's the one who's filmed the Mustang Cloud from the time he was born (9 years ago) in the Pryor Mountains, & shared his life with the world. She learned a lot about the ways of wild horses, & so it's worthwhile to hear her opinions on BLM actions.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Northern said:


> I do hope that WG & JDI expect folks to do their own research & arrive at their own conclusions!


What you seem to mean is that you hope that people will do the research and arrive at YOUR conclusions, giving me the impression, from this statement, that anyones other than yours is flawed.

Agree with WG and JDI. Perhaps your research needs to be more diverse.:wink:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Northern said:


> I'll add that Ginger Kathren's sites are a good place to start; she's the one who's filmed the Mustang Cloud from the time he was born (9 years ago) in the Pryor Mountains, & shared his life with the world. She learned a lot about the ways of wild horses, & so it's worthwhile to hear her opinions on BLM actions.


An emotionally-driven opinion. Don't get me wrong, those are fine, but not a great place to get facts, or form your own opinions on. 
Agreed with franknbeans, it seems as though you want people to "research" and agree with your opinions.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I don't want to inflate my ego by getting people to blindly agree with me; I do want them to do their research in a fair-minded way & arrive at their own conclusions. As long as we're all doing that, Amen & Amen!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

^Maybe YOU need to do your research. Horses are starving, the BLM helps limit those who suffer.


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## spence (Nov 8, 2009)

equiniphile said:


> ^Maybe YOU need to do your research. Horses are starving, the BLM helps limit those who suffer.


and that help is limited by funds, government, and bleeding hearts. oh yay! a lot more COULD be done with them, and good come from it, and everybody's be happier in the end.

it's rather unrelated, but i'll make the analogy anyway. just after the turn of the 20th century in the SW U.S., mule deer were nearly wiped out from over hunting. the states banned all hunting of mule deer, and within just a few years the mule deer population had boomed to the point there were SO many of them that they starved themselves off their own range. the states in the SW had to reopen mule deer to hunting otherwise the population was going to crash again due to lack of natural predators.

mustangs are at the point where the mule deer were back then when their hunting was reopened. the mustang is overpopulated and out of range, and they may even be unfortunate enough to have a crash in population due to disease and overgrazing/starvation to the point where it almost wipes them out...


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## RobertaB (Jan 8, 2011)

I used to just listen to whatever anyone was saying to me, assuming they knew more than I did about the issues the BLM has told the public. Then, I started to check into the matter.

In truth, there are no starving horses anywhere out there. I have been there and have two dear friends that are wildlife photographers, and have been for many years. And for many years they have photographed the wild mustang herds. Then they photographed the BLM's roundups, until they started telling people what they have seen and the BLM began prohibiting them from being there. When that was challenged in court, the BLM began posting "view stations" at least a quarter of a mile away, so they could not see what was happening well enough to report on it.....

This made me quite curious, since the wild horses belong to the American People - yes folks, they are actually considered a National Treasure - and the BLM is charged with managing the lands upon which they run "for the benefit of the horses."

CNN has just done a series about this issue, unbiased, just facts. BLM doesn't look too good here. Check it out.

I have spent years searching public records and following leads given to me - a lot have panned out, and a lot have not. But enough information is out there to prove to everyone that the BLM is in someone's back pocket and they are costing the American tax payer in excess of $44 million plus per year in order to round up and hold, and often sell to slaughter, our National Treasure. And there is plenty of room for the horses, as long as the original Wild Horse and Burro Act is honored. However, the Cattle Association has lobbied and bribed to get much of that land to run their cattle on. And BP, who have certainly made a name for themselves in dishonesty and greed, has shown an interest in the land that will soon be free of horses...

As far as WG, I wouldn't take much she has to say as factual, so many people are still like I was, they feel the reputable research comes from their friends, and so on and so forth...I have spent many years checking the facts, from the agencies and parties themselves that are trying to decimate the wild horses so they can have that land for their own interests, such as Sue Wallis, who was so concerned about the wild horses that she has been lobbying for the revival of slaughterhouses. Then her true interests come out when she votes to change some legislation in favor of that, only to be found to be hiding the fact that the legislation she is trying to get passed will be of GREAT benefit to her own personal slaughterhouse, which she has quietly opened with ill gotten campaign money. And her involvement on the whole legislation process process is mixing her position of power with her personal interests. The Horse Slaughter Summit was just held recently, and it highlighted the fact that most people do not support it. Let's hope more people continue to see the light.

As a sideline thought to WG, there is no humane way to slaughter a horse. Their end is terror and pain and suffering before finally death. Check it out. When a horse gets to the end of the line - meaning not wanted anymore, the ONLY humane way to end the horses life is to humanely put it down, with dignity. This all the tip pf the iceberg, so unless you fully understand what is going on, you can't really address the issue soundly. I have seen horses lying starving and dying of thirst on areas where the BLM changed the areas that the Wild Horse and Burro act gave to the horses, and restricted them to other less desirable areas so that cattle can be run on the areas that have the best grazing and water. I have seen the paperwork. It's all public record and its there for anyone willing to take the time to see for themselves. The research supports the horses.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

RobertaB said:


> In truth, there are no starving horses anywhere out there.
> 
> As a sideline thought to WG, there is no humane way to slaughter a horse. Their end is terror and pain and suffering before finally death. Check it out. When a horse gets to the end of the line - meaning not wanted anymore, the ONLY humane way to end the horses life is to humanely put it down, with dignity.


This is partly due to control measures, and partly due to naivity. There certainly are some rough-looking Mustangs out there. They'd look a heck of a lot worse if the BLM didn't have control measures in place.

There is absolutely many ways to humanely put down a horse, but nothing is 100%. There are just as many, or more, mistakes made by injection than something like a captive bullet. 

I have no interest in persuing a debate that is going to go downhill, there are many threads here that have discussed the topic to death...


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh here we go again! *pulls chair up and gets the popcorn*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Not me, I'm done and unsubscribing. There's a reason most of threads like this get closed.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

*pushes chair in and throws popcorn to the birds!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Excuse me RobertaB I like how you say :don't take much of WG has to say as factual"............. WHO are you to say what I have to say is not factual.Someone who just has posted 6 times and you are insulting other members?Acting like I am a stupid moran who doesn't do research, you don't know me and who are YOU to say only your research is the correct one since "...I have spent many years checking the facts, from the agencies and parties themselves as if that is the end all to everything 
I have seen horses DUMPED in the hills and desert around here left to fend for themselves. I have seen these horses starve to death. I have seen horses not fed or taken care of. I am not exactly stupid, I know slaughter houses are not the best way to end a horses life, but neither is starvation or some idiot just shooting the horse between the eyes thinking it will die and leaving it. Or turning it loose to see the wolves and other animals pull it down to die.

There is no humane way to destroy a horse except putting one to sleep? Have your ever witnessed a BOTCHED euthanasia? Its not pretty. 
No way of ending any animals life is not without stress
Get over yourself.


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## RobertaB (Jan 8, 2011)

WG: Absolutely no insult intended. I am in the legal field and know how to get access to many legal documents and information. I spent three years of my life researching and interviewing. I interviewed those who feel it is right and those who feel it is wrong to send these magnificent animals to slaughter, as well as the issue of the necessity for the roundups. I listened to what all parties had to say, even the BLM - who, by the way, when I went to talk to them, were very arrogant and suggested VERY CLEARLY that they have the power to do whatever they want, and don't HAVE to explain anything at all to the public.

Then I went to various courthouses in the west, including the Supreme Court in Cheyenne, and several district Courts in Albany, Hot Springs and Teton, Wyoming among other states. I also researched the various federal laws that were put in effect to provide safety for these horses. I found that they are being blatantly ignored.

I spent this time in an effort to get an accurate picture of what was going on since the BLM and some of the esteemed politicians behind the slaughter efforts were smiling and saying how these horses were starving and suffering and they had to round them up and put them in cramped holding pens "for their own good", while horse advocates for the horses are saying the complete opposite. 

I found this: In the wild naturally, some horses died each year from weather related circumstances. This is the natural culling that nature provides. However, when you find a horse that someone dumped, as you have found, it is again caused by someone irresponsible and lacking compassion. They should never be the reason that horses are rounded up and sent to slaughter. And I have several good friends who have made a living photographing the wild horse herds for YEARS. They tell me that there are no starving band of horses being rounded up, and they have the pictures to prove it.

Botched euthanasia attempt are the exception, not the rule. Terror and mistreatment in slaughterhouses is the RULE not the exception. 

And making a full, complete, investigation of the facts and not just accepting the ones that support my personal beliefs, is the only responsible avenue to take.

Again, I had no intention to offend, I was just saying that people need to look at ALL sides of the issue thoroughly before making a stand. I have done so and my stand is with a very educated conviction that there IS a better way out there than rounding up the horses. The BLM has shown that they are not above lying to the American Public. Why would they need to if they sincerely believe what they are doing is the right thing? And that is just ONE small thing to consider. There are so many other issues that impact the matter.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

Just because you are in the legal field does not give you the right to assume you have all the answers and everyone elses opinions or knowledge is not as good as yours.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

So, a question - if the horses being rounded up aren't starving and there are pictures to prove it, doesn't that mean that the pictures prove the effectiveness of the BLM management strategy? In other words, the horses are not starving because they are being removed at a rate that the range is sufficient to maintain the remaining population?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

RobertaB said:


> As a sideline thought to WG, there is no humane way to slaughter a horse.


Actually there is. A _correct _shot in head ends the life just as fast and easy as it can be. And very well may be a better solution than dropping dead from starvation.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

wyominggrandma said:


> Just because you are in the legal field does not give you the right to assume you have all the answers and everyone elses opinions or knowledge is not as good as yours.


Agree totally.


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## LoveStory10 (Oct 31, 2009)

franknbeans said:


> Agree totally.


As do I


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

LoveStory10 said:


> As do I


Add me to the list that agrees. (Great posts JDI, WG, and company.)



kitten_Val said:


> Actually there is. A _correct _shot in head ends the life just as fast and easy as it can be. And very well may be a better solution than dropping dead from starvation.


Two big thumbs up to this.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

* _Eating pizza and enjoying the new bleeding heart of the forum- welcome_* :think:


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

*Its okay...*



Northern said:


> A great New Year's resolution is to take a bit of time to sign those online petitions & letters to legislators, make calls, & donate as you can to stop BLM roundups & BLM disruption of herds by giving birth control to Mustang mares (Ginger Kathrens & Cloud sites), wild horse racing, etc.



if you havent noticed no one on this forum rlly likes horses. Im aware the BLM is cruel, and here are the numbers-























Today, fewer than 33,000 wild horses likely remain on public lands.
Over 2 million head of private livestock enjoy subsidized grazing on public lands.
 More than 250,000 wild horses and burros have been removed from public lands since 1971. The BLM plans to remove another 12,000 for Fiscal Year 2010.
 The 1971 Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act mandated that wild horses and burros be protected and managed on "areas where presently found," which included 47 million acres of public lands on 303 herd areas.
 Since 1971, wild horses have been zeroed out from 111 herd areas representing over 20 million acres; 2.4 million acres of wild horse habitat were lost between 2005 and 2009 alone.
 Burros share their habitat with bighorn sheep, a highly-prized game species that now outnumbers them at least 16 to 1 on public lands. BLM’s target for nationwide burro population is less than 3,000.
 BLM relies on an annual population increase rate of about 20% to evaluate population levels and justify round-ups of wild horses and burros, while the *National Academy of Sciences* estimates that rate to be closer to 10%.
 Wild horses account for less than 0.5% of large grazing animals on public lands.
 6 states have lost their entire wild horse and burro populations.
 In 70% of the remaining herd areas, BLM’s population targets are set at levels that will not ensure *genetic viability*.
 The current removal policy is costing over 60 million tax dollars a year.
In 2008, less than 5% of BLM’s wild horse and burro program budget was allocated to herd management on the range, with the remaining 95% allocated to captures, holding, and placement.
 According to the USGS, $7.7 million could be saved annually through the use of *contraceptive measures* alone.
 The removal and processing of a single horse through the adoption pipeline can cost as much as $3,000.
 Over 36,000 wild horses are currently held in government holding pens.
Livestock grazing is authorized on five times more acres of BLM land than wild horses (160 million acres for livestock vs. 26.6 million acres [shared with livestock] for horses and burros).
 Publicly-subsidized livestock grazing on public lands costs taxpayers in excess of $132 million annually, yet cattle grazed on public lands provide just 3% of the nation's beef supply.
 Private livestock outnumber wild horses and burros on public land by at least 50 to 1 (note: some livestock may not be grazed year round).

And if the BLM really cares about horses they would have taken pickens up on her offer for a alternative to stop the Nevada roundups for a few months, and foor less money she would build holding pens to keep the horses in adjenct to their homeland. see here-
American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign


Thanks for posting this thread...at least some "horse lovers" care!


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

oh no! it looks like over 56,000 other ppl are against the roundups too...
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/517/697/713/

so srry


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## DunOverIt (Dec 14, 2010)

site4pets said:


> oh no! it looks like over 56,000 other ppl are against the roundups too...
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/517/697/713/
> 
> so srry


Don't you have a meet your meat video to watch.. or a KFC to protest? Or a your mommy kills animals comic book to pass out to 4 year olds? Or something.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

DunOverIt said:


> Don't you have a meet your meat video to watch.. or a KFC to protest? Or a your mommy kills animals comic book to pass out to 4 year olds? Or something.


its not my petition actually. And at least im trying to do something about the things i dont like instead of acting like its not their and ignoring it.


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## DunOverIt (Dec 14, 2010)

I understand that. But is there a reason you randomly bounce around making assumptions that everyone who does not follow your plight must hate animals? There is a forum for that, it's called peta2.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I think she is only allowed on the computer when her parents are gone or she can sneek the use of it. Or when she tries to stir up stuff with her WILD stories.

Go join Peta, they will love your stories.


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