# Cinny's Journey with Lyme Disease treatment



## Cinnys Whinny

Over the past 4 years I have had issues on and off with Cinny. At first I thought they were training issues, then ulcers, then magnesium deficiency and even "phantom lamness" that would be one leg one week, another the next. Several trainers, vets, chiropractors, and yes even an Equine Positional Release therapist and still the problems keep coming and going. It has been quite an exhausting 4 years. And he just kept getting better and worse. We seem to go 2 steps forward and then 3 steps back and now, he has days when he is so stiff that he walks more like a 30 year old horse than the 11 year old that he is. And the past 6 months he has lost an enormous amount of muscle mass.

Last week I asked my vet about "Kissing Spines" as he seems to have a lot of the symptoms. Fine when at rest, but then start riding and he goes berserk. Or even not even riding, sometimes just lunging with a saddle makes him act like the saddle is a mountain lion trying to eat him. Tucking his tail between his legs and running like a scared dog with his ears pinned and his eyes rolling back in his head. The vet came out and examined him and decided to hold off on X-rays for Kissing Spine. 

He says Cinny is a "classic" Lyme case and he has had just over 10 horses in the area crop up with it in the past year. He thinks Cinny may have had it all along and nobody noticed because we all assumed it was a "green horse" behavior issue, then the ulcers and so on. No he did not do a blood draw or any other test yet, he is just that POSITIVE Lyme is the culprit, and this vet is the best in the area. I had him drive 1 hour one way to see Cinny other than my every day vet just for that reason.

He is currently being treated with doxycycline twice a day as well as a Chinese herbal remedy called "Concentrated Happy Liver." I was told to work him on the lunge for the next 2 weeks and then he can be ridden, but he has had so much muscle loss that I will probably work him on the lunge with a Pessoa System after the first week and then for a month to try to rebuild his top line and get him supporting himself better. My vet says the reason he should be worked now instead of waiting is that the Borrelia burdorferi spirochete, the organism responsible for Lyme Disease, goes dormant when the horse is relaxed or on rest. If it goes dormant, the antibiotic is less effective or may not work at all. It is most active when the horse is stressed. 

As of today, Cinny has had the Doxy/Happy Liver for 24 hours and was worked on the Lunge. This is the first work he has had Since April 6, almost a month ago except for daily turnout. Yesterday he was so stiff he could barely walk out of his stall into the arena, but once warmed up and then turned loose he kicked up his heels a little, but was still a bit lackluster compared to when he is feeling like his normal self. 

Today on the lunge started the same. very very stiff. He did warm up out of it again to an extent and there were times of trotting with his nose on the ground. You could still hear his joint creaking but he seemed a it happier today than yesterday.

First 5 minutes, he was a bit lazy and didn't want to trot.





About 10 minutes into the workout





After about 15 minutes






Stay tuned for future updates, feel free to ask questions!. Please do not "critique" the videos, this is a sick horse, I know he does not move correctly, isn't being "pushed" into the halter/bridle, etc. Considering he could barely walk yesterday (April 30) I think he's doing a pretty good job.


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## ligoleth

You can definitely see a difference in the three videos! I hope this cures him!


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## SullysRider

Following, hoping this is it and you get it licked!


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## waresbear

I am really hoping this helps Cinny, I want to see you two succeed!


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## Cinnys Whinny

Oh, and I almost forgot....he was so cute and happy to see me today, I just had to snap some pics.


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## oobiedoo

Good luck, he's so cute.I can only imagine how frustrating it Has been. Hope it's all good news from here on in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paintedpastures

Finally a Diagnosis ,hope he responds well to treatment & he recovers Keep us updated on his progress..


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## CLaPorte432

Off topic...How do you not kiss that cute little pink spot on his nose 24/7? ...Adorable!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

Subbing to follow progress.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Cinny was moving a lot better today. He walks very sore on the concrete of the barn and on the gravel on the way to the arena but on grass or in the arena he is fine. He was trimmed a week ago so I will talk to his farrier about it as it may be a trimming issue and not the Lyme. It seems that his soles are longer than his hoof walls. I don't remember them being like this right after the trim and I'm hoping the tissues inside his hooves aren't swelling.

We did try our new Pessoa system that the vet recommended today. Cinny was not pleased with the the part tickling his butt but after a few minutes he got used to it. I think for a first day, and for being stiff/sore he moved really well in it. He kept wanting to slow down and it was hard to push him a bit forward so I eventually gave up on that. I think he was "stressed" enough for the day anyway.

And CLaPorte432, I have to kiss it EVERY DAY!! It's just so cute as well as the black dot in the middle of his star.


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## Golden Horse

Any idea why the vet recommended the Pessoa rather than any other gadget? I was looking at one for a while, but I was finding equally good and bad reviews and opinions on if they actually have any benefits, and at the price I passed in the end.

I'm wondering why forward isn't the prime objective for him to start with, he just looks so short going still, looks like he needs just to get loose and stretch a bit.

Understanding that I know nothing about his situation or anything, I am just curious as to the why?


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## Cinnys Whinny

He said to use the pessoa to encourage him to stretch and use his back by using the "low" setting. My surcingle doesn't have a ring on the girth so I had to make due today but I'm going to change it up a bit. 

He said to start him slow, don't worry about forward so much, just get him working down and low and stretching through his back instead of bracing his back and arching with his head up. Cinny has had a lot of muscle loss through his body and especially in his top line, and he didn't have much to begin with there. My vet was worried that if we work on forward before he has started stretching and regaining his top line it will cause him to be even more sore and painful. He wants him on the lunge every day for 20 minutes to help prevent the organism from going dormant, but if we push him too hard any of those days, he will be too sore to work the next day. 

I don't know if I explained it in a way that makes sense, but when my vet explains it, it makes perfect sense to me. I guess it's like when a human has a virus, sometimes it's good for them to still get up and walk around, stretch etc...but it wouldn't be good for them to go to an aerobics class.


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## Viranh

Hoping Cinny gets to feeling better very soon. I think work in the Pessoa or side reins should be great to help him stretch out his back. I can't wait to see more videos of him as he recovers!


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## LemonZeus

How's Cinny feeling?


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## Cinnys Whinny

I gave Cinny a day off yesterday. I figure even with trying to keep him in work, he still needs a day off once in a while, and he was turned out all day with his best buddy. 

Today is the 7th day of meds. I am starting to see a difference already. He is much calmer and will even work quietly in our front arena which he has never really done before even when he was on a double dose of SmartCalm every day. He is currently not taking ANY calming meds, only the Doxy, Concentrated Liver Happy and Next Level Joint Supplement. He has been off bute for 3 days. 

With the Pessoa I see him starting to move out and be a bit more forward without my asking him, although he is still playing with where he wants his head and stretching his back. Today was only the 3rd day with it and I'm sure he will keep improving. He seems more relaxed in his gaits, and much much more willing to work. I didn't have to prod him today and I had trouble keeping him in a trot. His transitions seem super smooth, however so that's a plus.

Anyway, I see a big difference since the first video, and even the video a few days ago with his first day on the Pessoa. I am so happy that he seems to be improving so quickly.


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## Golden Horse

I've watched a couple of times, and I'm really sorry I don't see any difference there, maybe it looks different in person!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## egrogan

Subbing to follow his progress. Lyme is a big problem in our area too-a former boarder's horse came down with it, but it was managed and not an impediment to her riding in the long run.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cinnys Whinny

Golden Horse said:


> I've watched a couple of times, and I'm really sorry I don't see any difference there, maybe it looks different in person!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


His hind legs are coming more under him and he's actually hitting the heals of his front legs again. He also covers much much more ground and he is more relaxed through the back and shoulders, not as choppy of a trot. He is also more horizontal moving than vertical where before he moved more vertically but didn't cover much ground or have much horizontal movement.

And a lot of it is temperament. He is starting to be his old, sweet and calm puppy dog of a horse again. In fact after his work I turned him loose in the arena to roll and relax while I scooped up poop, etc. For the first time in 2 years he nickered and followed me around while I worked and kept nuzzling me. He hasn't been like that in so so long.


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## dkb811

I think it's wonderful that you are seeing some improvement with the Lyme disease treatment! Sending best wishes and positive thoughts your way!


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## ligoleth

This makes me feel like it is an episode of House M.D. 

"Differentials, people!"
"Lyme!"
"Kissing spine!"
"PPSM!"

"Alright, let's treat the symptoms. Put him on doxycycline for six weeks and see if conditions improve. Give him happy liver, and use the pessoa system. If we are right, the exercise will keep the disease from going into remission. If we are wrong... well. It's obviously kissing spine. We'll move from there. "

I'm half expecting a random twist in events in Cinny's case... mayhaps I watch too much House.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Deschutes said:


> This makes me feel like it is an episode of House M.D.
> 
> "Differentials, people!"
> "Lyme!"
> "Kissing spine!"
> "PPSM!"
> 
> "Alright, let's treat the symptoms. Put him on doxycycline for six weeks and see if conditions improve. Give him happy liver, and use the pessoa system. If we are right, the exercise will keep the disease from going into remission. If we are wrong... well. It's obviously kissing spine. We'll move from there. "
> 
> I'm half expecting a random twist in events in Cinny's case... mayhaps I watch too much House.


Ha ha, I LOVE that show. My favorite episode, surprise diagnosis was a few years ago when the patient actually died. It turned out to be from ecoli or strep or something entering through a small sore from her stupid bra strap. A mundane everyday thing that everyone missed because they were too busy looking for something big and exotic, LOL.


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## jaydee

I can see a marked difference in him, he's reaching forwards with his legs a lot better and looks a lot more supple in his back. He's slowly moving back to the horse you had racing around his paddock in one of your early videos
Lymes is crippling when it attacks the joints and affects the nervous system and attitude of the horse - changing them from being kind and gentle to fractious and aggressive almost overnight so it would explain a lot of the way he'd become
Its from the same 'family' as syphilis so it's easy to understand why it causes so much trouble


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## DuffyDuck

As I am in work, I cannot view the videos.

I am trying to think of how to put this down without sounding horrid, or blunt.. please remember I am only thinking for your horse, and your pocket.

WHY WHY WHY has your vet not taken bloods?! If he drove an hour out, and you're paying for a serious evaluation, get him tested! You can't 'classically' diagnose Lyme's by LOOKING at a horse. 

I would look for a new vet. That is irresponsible, IMO. The fact he is willing to pump your horse with medication WHICH YOU ARE PAYING FOR, without a proper diagnosis, and is then going to xray if that doesn't work to check for KS... this guy just wants you to line his pockets!!!

Secondly.. for a horse that has been in such bad shape as Cinny.. I would NEVER use a pessoa system. The only time I would use a pessoa is with a fit, working horse.. which Cinny currently is not!! It puts too much pressure to hold in to position, which he shouldn't be doing for five minutes.

That is, however, just my opinion. I am glad you are making progress, but I would STRONGLY advise bloods.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Duffy, at the time the vet was actually out to do Chiro on another horse and agreed to look at Cinny. He only had his Chiro stuff with him. He has seen and treated enough Lyme in my area for me to trust that he really knows what he is looking at. We will get bloods after a month, don't worry. But as Cinny is very quickly started to get back to himself, I'd say whatever he has, the meds are helping.

The Pessoa is in the "low" position which they suggest for started horses, and on a very very loose setting, don't worry. Cinny is not struggling by any means, he is developing bigger muscles and more balance. My trainer is helping with the lunging and she actually thinks he can handle it set with the reins a bit shorter but I want to wait. And he only works in it every 3 days....

As for today, we worked on canter/trot canter transitions which he was more than happy to do. He's been begging to canter for a few days now. He could only handle transitioning in and out for about 5 minutes though.

He was very relaxed and very happy after workout


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## Golden Horse

Cinnys Whinny said:


> The Pessoa is in the "low" position which they suggest for started horses, and on a very very loose setting, don't worry. Cinny is not struggling by any means, he is developing bigger muscles and more balance.


Just for clarification, I'm slow sometimes you mean that he WILL be developing good muscle, not that he already is yes?

Not being difficult, just trying to understand, I can see that if he is feeling better and his meds are working his muscles may look different, but it will surely take weeks to develop muscles...

OK, just typing that makes me think.....I believe that muscles are actually built up by by the tearing and healing of fibre, well so my gym rat son tells me, so he tells me off if I work out without days off inbetween, he tells me that is when a person gets sore, you have to let the developing muscle heal a little then tear some more.

I totally understand him having to move so his meds work, I totally get trying to free him up and get him looser moving, but wouldn't muscle building as such come later on?


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## jaydee

It's quite common here for vets to prescribe Doxy without a blood test if a horse is displaying typical Lyme's symptoms - the blood tests aren't hugely reliable anyway though they seem better than the ones used to test humans
I don't use the Pessoa system myself but Cinny looked to be going surprisingly well in it


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## Cinnys Whinny

His shoulders and legs are starting to have muscle "definition" lines that are more prominent and he spine is much less protruding so I am assuming it is muscle that either was already there that is being worked again or he is gaining muscle now that his body is more properly in condition. He wasn't completely out of condition when we started this, he had been being worked, he was just very slowly starting to lose muscle mass.

I'll take some pictures and put them up with the pics I took a few weeks ago so we can all see if there is a difference with the pictures next to each other  It could be my imagination.


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## jaydee

A friend of ours that had Lymes was all hunched up and couldn't do anything about it and one side of his face looked as if he'd had a stroke.
He was almost back to normal after a week on medication


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## Cinnys Whinny

Okay, here are the pictures to compare. The top one was from the beginning of April a few weeks before starting meds and the second one is today after about a week and a half of meds, there is about a month in between. I think there is a big difference but that is just my opinion.

APRIL









MAY


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## SullysRider

He looks MUCH better in that second photo, especially the change in his entire posture. Looks like the meds are working!


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## Cherrij

To me it looks like he is standing more comfortably now, his neck is more relaxed, but also increased in size. His barrel has expanded, his back is not swaying down, his bum is more rounded and overall he seems to look more like a healthy horse 

There is a difference for sure, and I hope he just keeps improving  I can see you have the fight in you and the patience to make this work out.


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## Spanish Rider

I had Lyme disease 10 years ago. My initial symptoms were severe headache and mental confusion (I walked around the house with ice packs on my head, it was so bad). The joint pain came on several weeks later. My initial ER blood tests came back negative for Borrelia, but it was a local GP who had seen several cases who made the diagnosis with a LD titer test. Not even half came back positive, so the overall test was negative.

Thankfully, he started me on doxycycline at that first visit, before the tests had come back. The headache subsided within the first 24h, but the joint pain persisted for some weeks.

While I do not mean to equate LD in humans with LD in equines, I see that your horse looks much happier already, meaning that he may have been having headaches. Have you tried head massages (like the TTouch?). With luck, the joint pain and swelling will remit without complications. I will say, however, that for 3-4 years afterwards I had joint pain whenever I had a bit of fever from a cold or flu, although I did not need any further antibiotics.


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## Cinnys Whinny

I agree, he is a much happier and more relaxed boy these days. For the longest time he seemed to always be cranky and not want to work, be jumpy, sensitive, and just overall gave me the feeling that he just did not want me messing with him. Now he nickers when I arrive like he used to and during the whole workout looks at me with an expression that just says "what do I get to do next?" 

I pushed him a bit today and pushed him to canter for a minute strait, 3 times each side. Don't worry, we walked for a minute in between too. His normal reaction to being "pushed" is to balk, buck, rear, etc (see my avatar). But today he would just look at me with a soft expression asking to stop. But in no time he was ready to go again. He worked up his first faint sweat in months that was purely from work and not anxiety. It was wonderful.


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## LemonZeus

I bet you're relieved! Happy to hear he's doing better


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## Bobthebuilder

He looks so much better in the second photo!
Glad you have a diagnosis, trying to find out whats wrong for a long time is very taxing. 

Also, he looks to be doing well in the pessoa, but have you looked into using a chambon? 

I'm awful at explaining, but it attaches to the girth (at the belly) goes between the front legs, runs through a strap over the poll and then to the bit. So if the horse puts his head up, he gets poll pressure- with immediate release as soon as they lower their heads. It only encourages a downward/out stretch of the neck.
Its also a lot easier to put on and deal with than a pessoa  (to clarify: not trying to be rude or tell you what to do just offering a suggestion that has worked really well with my horses  )
Good luck to the both of you, hope he continues to improve!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shoebox

Do you have any before pictures closer to the after picture? One where he is dry and relaxed, rather than wet and focused on something? It might seem silly but the smallest things can make a difference - Cinny being focused on something in that first picture could have him tensing different muscles than when he is relaxed - and the wet really can play tricks, making light shine brighter where it hits, etc etc.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Bob - I have thought of it but tack changes aren't really that easy with him. He also had some sort of mouth trauma before I got him so I am picky with what I use. He is currently using a Micklem bridle with the bit clips and it works well with the pessoa and his vienna reins because if he spooks, jerks etc it will transfer the pressure to the nose band. I'm worried with the champon that with the more vertical motion it would still jolt the bit, if that makes sense. But I have thought of it a few times. 

Shoe, he has just always been tense, nervous and eye-balling everything around him for the past year or more. I don't really have any in between pictures because he was just at rest and I pretty much left him alone because he would stress so easily. He was so full of nervousness and anxiety that he would jump out of his skin just hitting himself with his own tail! A thud, somebody else cracking a lunge whip while working their horse, another horse spooking or jumping...any little thing would send him into a frenzy. I think he was in fight or flight response 24/7. It's been worsening over time like he is in a downward spiral. I don't think he even really slept unless he was in the turnout with his best friend standing over him.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Wait, what is that???? Do I actually see maybe an inch between the ground and Cinny's feet when he's trotting? And no big dust cloud from dragging his feet. He even seems to be starting to pick up his hind end instead of dragging it with his front end.

Dust cloud creation look like it is now a thing of the past. YAY.


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## CandyCanes

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Wait, what is that???? Do I actually see maybe an inch between the ground and Cinny's feet when he's trotting? And no big dust cloud from dragging his feet. He even seems to be starting to pick up his hind end instead of dragging it with his front end.
> 
> Dust cloud creation look like it is now a thing of the past. YAY.
> 
> View attachment 430738


If he recovers fully, I genuinely think he could go far in the dressage world. He seems to have natural suspension in the trot, which is highly sought after in dressage! Most people (including myself) have to train for the suspension!


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## Golden Horse

CandyCanes said:


> If he recovers fully, I genuinely think he could go far in the dressage world. He seems to have natural suspension in the trot, which is highly sought after in dressage! Most people (including myself) have to train for the suspension!


It would be quite the recovery to see him as a natural dressage horse, but who knows, miracles can happen 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

Doxy is a miracle worker where Lymes is the cause of the problem!!!


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## Cinnys Whinny

CandyCanes said:


> If he recovers fully, I genuinely think he could go far in the dressage world. He seems to have natural suspension in the trot, which is highly sought after in dressage! Most people (including myself) have to train for the suspension!


Ha ha, thank you. The past 4 years that I have had him everyone says he is so NOT a dressage horse, he's too this, too that, and he drags his back end like a tractor pulling a plow! (I think Golden Horse would agree with this statement) But now, he's changing so so much. I am very excited to see what he is like when we reach the other end of the tunnel. My aim is only at 1st level at the highest, but for the most part just decent, non-embarrassing scores at training level. No more scores in the 30's.

Before his diagnosis I had ordered a jump saddle for him as he has been taking to 1 1/2 foot cross rails and the such and was going over them very honestly even if I was off balance, not a single refusal no matter what. If jumps are set in the arena when you turn him out he will ALWAYS have to try out anything lower than 3ft while he's playing. But, the saddle was on backorder and the meds for Lyme were expensive so I cancelled the order. I think one may still be in the works this year for him. He may make a nice project for an experienced, knowledgeable Pony Clubber who is coming out of ponies and going into something bigger. I am currently too heavy for him to really pursue jumps with me on him, but I am working on it. 

Anyway, last night was horrible on the home front. My son took a nasty spill in the yard and his his forehead on the cement patio. This was followed by bloody noses, vomiting and then he spiked a fever. He is autistic so it is sometimes difficult to tell how badly he has injured himself but I thought the signs weren't good. We took him to the ER where the doctor ordered a head scan but he just would not lay still for it. After an hour of trying the doctor said to skip and ordered a 12 hour observation. If your wondering why they didn't just sedate him, they don't like doing that with possible head injuries if they can help it because it can induce coma.

We are home now, he is fine except for what is now ruled to be a coincidental virus. Hubby stayed home and I went to make sure Cin ate his meds and that the BO had plenty mixed up for the rest of today and tomorrow. I put Cinny on the lunge but he was hyped up from not being turned out yesterday (they don't turn out in the rain at my barn.) Once I knew he was warmed up I just turned him loose in the arena. This is the first time he has been turned loose in the arena since last fall. He was ecstatic! The last time I turned him out in the front arena he just trotted around tense and screamed for his friend the entire time like a total idiot. But this time....

Well, here is the video....


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## Cinnys Whinny

Oh, and a couple of photos from today because he is just so darn adorable!


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## egrogan

Ha, how long did he keep going like that? He looks bright and shiny! I really hope this is the answer you've been looking for.


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## Cinnys Whinny

egrogan said:


> Ha, how long did he keep going like that? He looks bright and shiny! I really hope this is the answer you've been looking for.


I didn't have to do anything, he did it all on his own. No whips, rope swinging, I only had my phone in my hand. That's one way I can tell he is feeling better. He used to just trot back and forth and scream for his friend and not do much. We have had a hot week, and then yesterday the BO didn't turn out because it was raining. This morning it was 47 degrees out and I think the brisk morning after so much heat and finally feeling good just made him happy and playful.


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## tinyliny

he can book!


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## Cinnys Whinny

Egrogan - he went until I whistled for him. He has returned to his old habit of coming up to me when I whistle for him and letting me put his halter on. This also hasn't happened for quite some time because he adopted the "I don't want you to mess with me" attitude quite a while ago. I'm sure he could have gone another 15-30 minutes but I was tired from last night. He did get a good half hour run though with a 15 minute hand walk.

TinyLiny- I think that's the Jae Bar/Doc Bar breeding. A lot of his siblings are wonderful barrel, reining, gaming horses. Poor Cin is stuck with me who doesn't have the guts to go that fast anymore.


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## egrogan

Cinny, my vet posted this on FB today, thought I'd share: Foster Hospital for Small Animals at Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine at Tufts: LYME DISEASE: WHAT IS IT? HOW SHOULD WE TREAT IT?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cakemom

Awesome!! He looks amazing!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

I think you have your horse back


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## gunslinger

He sure looked like he enjoyed himself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherrij

He really is amazing. He shines, looks good, gallops like any energetic young horse would and overall looks like a happy horse 

I am sure you are winning in getting your horse 100% back and more


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## Roux

I just read this through. How amazing, I am so glad Cinny has you to take such special care of him. I am so glad you seem to have found a solution and that he is feeling better. I can't wait to see more and watch Cinny keep getting better and better. He really is beautiful!


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## DuffyDuck

I'm curious as to how he is today/couple of days after.

I still think you should pull bloods and get rid of that pessoa. 

After seeing that video of him free running, I'm even more convinced.

He is stiff through his entire lower back, making him crossfire and bunny hop with his hind legs. That is not a happy camper.

While it's good to let them get rid of the beans, have you run a 6 miler without any training? The next day you're stiff and sore. I'd try and hold back from letting him goon around like that and do himself an injury. 

I'm not convinced that this is something that can be cured over night by putting a load of different drugs in the horse.

Be responsible, pull bloods, and get the results to show what is going on.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Duffy, the blood tests for Lyme disease are UNRELIABLE. They give both false positives and false negatives all the time because Lyme disease comes in and out of dormancy depending on it's cycle and whether or not the horse is being stressed. 

I am following my vets instructions. This is a log on how he does while following the plan my vet has set up for him. My vet says that he sees 90% and higher recovery rate in those who stick with the plan and a 100% failure rate in those who give up on the plan which is a 3 month plan. I trust my vet. I trust my second opinion. I trust my 3rd opinion. 

No offense, and I don't mean this harshly but it will sound a bit harsh, but when you hop off a plane bearing a veterinary license and do your own full exam on my horse including reading up on his full history for the past 4 years, then I will consider your 4th opinion  Again, no offence and I do consider all opinions on here... but I tend to go with what my vets and trainers say to do a little more.

This thread is to diary and share Cinny's progress. And he is progressing!!


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## DuffyDuck

Having been through the journey with a friend who had a horse with Lymes, and with every issue you've had with this horse, I am still wondering why you're paying for your vets holiday and porsche.

Call it improvement if you like, I am failing to notice it.

That horse has ISSUES with his hind and lower back. My first port of call would to have tested that before throwing doxy at him.

Your horse, your money.

Just keep your vet laughing all the way to the bank


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## Viranh

In her position, I too would just treat for lyme. The doxy is not that expensive and is not likely to hurt the horse, and the test just isn't accurate. He may well test negative, but that is no guarantee he doesn't have it. Lyme disease is incredibly common in her area. She's in Nebraska, I believe. I'm in MO, so somewhat similar. Most of my animals and family have been treated for tick born illness in the past few years. It's just that prevalent here. He's got the symptoms, too. Her vet knows her area and these diseases better than you do.


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## Viranh

Also, the vet would have made more money taking rads of his back and hind than in dispensing an antibiotic...


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## Golden Horse

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I am following my vets instructions. This is a log on how he does while following the plan my vet has set up for him. My vet says that he sees 90% and higher recovery rate in those who stick with the plan and a 100% failure rate in those who give up on the plan which is a 3 month plan. I trust my vet. I trust my second opinion. I trust my 3rd opinion.


It's great that you are following instructions, that is indeed what you should do, and I didn't realize that you had got second and third opinions on it, that's smart.

Everyone wants to see Cinny be fit and healthy, that is a given, I think some are just worried that he has had so many diagnoses in the past, and so many different things tried, that you may be disappointed yet again.

I know that you will be relieved to finally work this puzzle out. 

I hope his run out and play didn't make him sore, I know to my cost how it feels to suddenly be active, the muscles tend to complain.


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## DuffyDuck

No, the expense will turn in to treatment, after treatment, after treatment.

The horse is obviously in discomfort.

The right thing to do would be to investigate it. Bloods, xrays.. whatever it takes. Waiting three months to "see" is irresponsible.

I'm shaking my head in disbelief that you're missing this fact. You care so much about him, but you're happy to wait and see, if in three months, doxy cures whatever ailment he has. On top of that, you're running him in a contraption I would only ever put on a fit, working horse... not one with obvious pain and discomfort that is not fit.

Your horse, your money.

After helping to rehab many horses that have had physical ailments, and been there for the recovery programme for a friend's horse _who tested positive_ for lymes... the best chance you can give your horse is to check things out thoroughly rather than waiting for three months and hope for the best.


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## Cinnys Whinny

He wasn't really "suddenly" active. He's been working hard on the lunge for 2 weeks with either Vienna reins or the pessoa with every 3rd workout halter only (no reins). His turnout in the turnout video he was lunged for about 15 minutes at the trot to make sure his joints and muscles were warmed up. 

Over the weekend he showed no signs of soreness and was ready and eager to work this morning. We used vienna reins and started working on spiraling in to a 10m circle and then back out to 20 which is what is on the vet's agenda for week 3 dictates and with the watchful eye of my trainer to make sure he wasn't dropping shoulders too bad or showing any signs that he was having too much difficulty. He did amazing and had no trouble at all moving in and out of the spiral. 

The vet said he can also start being ridden again this week but I am actually going to hold off as I really would like to get some more top line strength first and to lose some more of my midline.


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## Golden Horse

Cinnys Whinny said:


> The vet said he can also start being ridden again this week but I am actually going to hold off as I really would like to get some more top line strength first and to lose some more of my midline.


Smart choice, both will help his chances of going sound


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## gunslinger

It didn't look like he was uncomfortable to me.....he looked like he was happy to be out and feeling his oats....

He's a great looking horse and I hope your riding goes well.


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## jaydee

DuffyDuck said:


> No, the expense will turn in to treatment, after treatment, after treatment.
> 
> The horse is obviously in discomfort.
> 
> The right thing to do would be to investigate it. Bloods, xrays.. whatever it takes. Waiting three months to "see" is irresponsible.
> 
> I'm shaking my head in disbelief that you're missing this fact. You care so much about him, but you're happy to wait and see, if in three months, doxy cures whatever ailment he has. On top of that, you're running him in a contraption I would only ever put on a fit, working horse... not one with obvious pain and discomfort that is not fit.
> 
> Your horse, your money.
> 
> After helping to rehab many horses that have had physical ailments, and been there for the recovery programme for a friend's horse _who tested positive_ for lymes... the best chance you can give your horse is to check things out thoroughly rather than waiting for three months and hope for the best.


I really cannot see what you're seeing at all
I did look at a video of Cinny when he was very stiff and in pain and the horse I see in the new video looks like a different animal. 
I've had Lymes myself, 2 of my dogs and 3 of my horses have had it and trust me - running around a paddock is not something a horse that's in the untreated stage of it would choose to do - in fact it's not something a horse in any sort of pain would choose to do. You don't just get aches and pains with it - you feel ill.
It's quite common for humans to show negative on the standard test in the first 7 to 10 days but will show a 'Present' on the Western Blot test which is why they tend to do that. 
The earlier Lymes is treated the less lasting damage it can do and the faster its cleared up
I live in Lyme Central - CT is where the disease was first recognized and the treatment Cinny is getting is fairly standard. If I call my vet and describe the typical symptoms for Lymes he won't even bother doing a test he just has me collect the medication.


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## Sahara

Cinnys Whinny said:


> My vet was worried that if we work on forward before he has started stretching and regaining his top line it will cause him to be even more sore and painful. He wants him on the lunge every day for 20 minutes





Cinnys Whinny said:


> He wasn't really "suddenly" active. He's been working hard on the lunge for 2 weeks with either Vienna reins or the pessoa with every 3rd workout halter only (no reins).


I thought the vet said light work to avoid soreness and pain. But you have him 'working hard'??


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## Cinnys Whinny

Sahara said:


> I thought the vet said light work to avoid soreness and pain. But you have him 'working hard'??


Don't you love it when people misunderstand your words and then toss them back at you to use against you? ha ha. Let's see if I can try to explain.

Physical Therapy IS hard work be it something stupid and simple, or advanced...therapy is hard work. We started light and then gradually brought him up. My vet has a 3 page "work plan" for his recovery. It started at 15 minutes and gradually built up until half an hour and complicating it with the pessoa, vienna reins, and ground poles. 

In the second paragraph I meant "hard" in the way that it was hard for him at the time, not I ran the you know what out of him ha ha. Hard enough to start building him back up. The first few days he was sweating hard with just 10 minutes of trot on a 50 degree day. Most people don't think a 10 minute trot is working them hard, but at that time and at that condition it was for him. Now he doesn't start to get "damp" until about half an hour on a 75-80 degree day which is what my vet wanted him to accomplish in order to graduate to canter and turnout out to "run" as well as riding. Though I am not riding him yet we will begin canter work on the lunge and turnouts in bigger turnout pens. 

My trainer is writing me a continuation plan for lunging and ground work since I am not riding, to help strengthen his top line and his hind end which is still extremely weak. It consists of working with ground poles as well as raised caveletti. She wants to work him up to a grid consisting of ground poles, caveletti and a 2ft jump in hand and thinks he can do it within a month. This is to strengthen his back end and teach him balance and confidence.


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## Sahara

Well, I wasn't using your words against you. I was honestly confused. But, hey, next time I'll assume the worst rather than ask for clarification.


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## frlsgirl

Subbing. Very interesting story. Also curious about the Pessoa system.


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## frlsgirl

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Well, here is the video....
> 
> Cinny at play 2014 8 9 - YouTube


Love, love, love this. He's clearly feeling good. If the Dressage thing doesn't work out, maybe you can take him to the race track :wink:


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## Cinnys Whinny

Sahara said:


> Well, I wasn't using your words against you. I was honestly confused. But, hey, next time I'll assume the worst rather than ask for clarification.


I'm sorry. I was in a really grumpy mood yesterday and I shouldn't have been snippy with you, it was unfair.

I am doing my best to follow vet's orders, even though I am somewhat changing one part by not actually RIDING my horse because though the vet says my weight is fine for him, I personally don't think it is. But anyway, I feel like even though I'm doing everything I am told by the vet, my trainer, etc I've been feeling like I'm being interrogated lately when I really just wanted this to be a JOURNAL.

I know people have legitimate questions but at the same time I feel like some people are telling me I'm bad and wrong for following instructions provided by my professionals who are a great team and well respected in the area. I just want to journal and share my horse's progress and what is working or not working and how great he is bouncing back. 

Again, I am sorry for snapping at you, you just happened to be the one who responded this way at a time that I was frustrated, exhausted, etc. I was sensitive and felt attacked although I know that it was not your intention at all. I am sorry.


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## Cinnys Whinny

I figured out a great way to mix Cinny's meds....YAY.

I haven't written much about it on here but there has been small issues getting Cinny to eat the "concentrated happy liver." Every morning the powder would be there in his grain bin, separated out somehow...just a little powdery mess which also ended up including the doxy. I tried Blue Agave Nector as it is much lower sugar than some other things (horse's with Lyme disease are more prone to founder and insulin resistance) but then I would have a gooey powder mess on the bottom. Don't worry, every day I've been remixing and re-giving it until it actually got in him.

So yesterday while I was in the kitchen cleaning the containers and mixing up more batches for my BO (who has to have everything super simple as possible) I saw my Kitchenade Mixer out of the corner of my eye....what if???? So I played with it a bit and came up with something that really worked and Cinny gobbled it down.

Cinny gets his meds mixed with 1/2 scoop of Senior, so here is what I did and maybe this will help others if they have a Kitchenade available. You have to use the DOUGH HOOK or you will completely masacre your pelleted feed (in this case senior). Put half the grain ration in, then the meds, then aprox 1/8 cup blue agave and 1/4 cup water, then pour the rest of the grain ration over. Then mix on the very lowest setting with the DOUGH HOOK for about 3 minutes...for me it's about time to wash one individual canister/container. Use a rubber spatula to scrape the sides down and mix for 30 more seconds (I push down while mixing). Then it's ready to pour into the canister/container. There should only be a thin layer stuck to the bowl and dough hook. 


Cinny gobbles it up and there is no powdery clumps to be separated out...Cinny actually even DROOLED in his grain feeder EWWWW. It didn't stick in the canister either, the water is the key to this. Everything just mixes evenly with no mess.

So next time you have to mix meds with grain that your horse won't eat, try to find a Kitchenade with a dough hook... your mom or grandma or somebody may have one if you don't. I didn't have one until a month ago and I LOVE IT, not just for this but I now make home made bread, pizza dough, funnel cakes, etc etc etc....


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## LemonZeus

Did Cinny ever squat down while you were mounting? Almost like he couldn't support someone on his back? My horse has been sore since August, even with the winter off, and now I'm thinking it's not normal wear-and-tear...


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## Cinnys Whinny

LemonZeus said:


> Did Cinny ever squat down while you were mounting? Almost like he couldn't support someone on his back? My horse has been sore since August, even with the winter off, and now I'm thinking it's not normal wear-and-tear...


No, he has not ever done that, but I would really have that checked out. It could be anything from a kidney infection to something neurological and just about anything in between. Especially if it is something he does often.


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## LemonZeus

Zeus hasn't done it since October, but he's still very sensitive and weak in his back. I read this and thought I'd just ask. Gave him the winter off to get sorted and it didn't help, so vet's coming out next week. Thanks


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## Cinnys Whinny

Yay, it's day 15 and Cinny is doing so well. People at my stable are starting to notice, and people who have known us since I bought him have commented that they have never seen him move so well. I think the doxy and physical therapy recommendations from my vet and trainer are working very well. 

The biggest difference is that Cinny has NEVER really done well with ground poles AT ALL. Even with just one he would repeatedly have trouble getting those hind legs over and would step on it, kick it, trip over it and even occasionally send them flying. Sometimes he would be good once or twice but then his hind would sort of get week. Today he stepped over a single ground pole repeatedly on the lunge for 5 minutes each direction! He did get very tired BUT he had a 95% success rate and when he did hit it, it was just a tap, not a trip or stepping on it or anything. This is a really big accomplishment for him!

The hollow areas on either side of his spine are also filling in nicely and he moves in a much more relaxed manner. I know I still need to get him more "forward" and I think he is physically capable of handling being pushed in that direction now.






A picture from today after his workout. I tried to angle it so that you can see his back and how he is filling in so that his spine no longer sticks up 2 inches from the rest of his back.










And I know it's only been a few weeks from the last one but here is a current timeline view. There isn't as drastic of a difference this time as it's only been a few weeks, but I think I do see muscle starting to develop around his shoulders and the top of his neck as well as a bigger bum. He still stands very relaxed and isn't "fight or flight" driven for 24/7. Today I even got him to put his nose on a plastic bag and he just snorted at it. A month ago he probably would have busted his halter trying to get away from it even though he was on SmartCal ultra back then.


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## dkb811

I'm so happy for you and Cinny! You are one fantastic horsey Mom and he's looking good. Wishing you continued progress!


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## frlsgirl

I was going to say the same thing. Looking good!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Viranh

He's looking better already! He's lucky to have such a dedicated mom.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Yay, to top of my absolutely fabulous month, my son now has chicken pox! Yes, he was vaccinated but it's not 100% but the doctor says it shouldn't last as long or be as severe. Add itching to his wonderful sensory issues that come along with Autism and it's gonna be a great weekend.... 

Cinny was wonderful today. After a little bit of work I was persuaded by my trainer to get on and walk him a few times around the arena to see how he behaves. He was a DOLL. No head tossing, no teeth grinding, just a slow and steady walk with ears perked forward. I was bareback and I could feel how relaxed his muscles were. He has always HATED me on him bareback with a passion, but today it was no problem, not even without a bareback pad just straight bareback.

I'm still going to wait a few more weeks to REALLY ride, however. I want to get those muscles as strong as possible and back the way they should be first.


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## ligoleth

The nice thing about chicken pox now, is that he won't have measles later. I hear that the later you have chicken pox in life, the worse it is. 

Hopefully the vaccine keeps it on the down low.


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## Cacowgirl

I think your progress w/Cinny is amazing. I have followed your post & problems w/him over the last years-you are very persistent! Whatever joy you can fine w/him-you absolutely deserve. Hope your son is not too "itchy" this W/E & that it is a short bout.


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## jaydee

My DH & I had both measles and chicken pox so I don't think the one gives you an immunity to others
The biggest risk in adults that have had chicken pox is getting shingles later in life
SORRY - off track
Great news Cinny's mum. you sound to have great progress there


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## Cinnys Whinny

Hubby is off today which is RARE so we are going to spend some family time together. I did go visit Cinny early this morning and we had a "sunrise breakfast" together. I know it sounds silly. I just took him out to a favorite grazing area in the park and I sat down and ate a breakfast sandwich while he munched. It was so quiet and peaceful and Cin stuck close by to me and kept trying to share my food too ha ha.

I just love his change in personality, he actually has one now. And I am so so scared that he still may have Kissing Spines too. I'm probably just paranoid. But what matters now is that he is happy, healthy and a big snugly nuzzly puppy dog who acts like he is completely thrilled to be taken out of his stall and worked with.

It's been a beautiful morning, and now I'm off to a wonderful afternoon.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Not much more going on this week. I've been at home a lot with my son and my friend has been continuing Cinny's workouts until I can get a chance to get to the barn. Chicken Pox sucks  My son seems to be doing pretty well and the spots are going away already, so the doctor was right about them not lasting as long.

I was going through some old videos and found this little Gem. It's my daughter with Cinny the summer of 2011. Please don't be too harsh on her riding, she is a very NOVICE rider and kind of sits him like a sack of potatoes. But it kind of shows what his temperament was like before LD. You can tell he's annoyed by her bounce, but if I had tried this a few months ago I would probably have had to peel my daughter off the arena wall or floor. In fact, she hasn't ridden him in over a year because he has just been so "touchy" and unpredictable and I just plain didn't trust him with her anymore. In this video she is riding in a rope halter.


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## ligoleth

Oh man, poor cinny. He looks positively irritated!
Here's hoping that the next time they ride he'll be much happier.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Yeah, that's the year that we started seeing changes in him. They were so small that year though and they were diagnosed as ulcers though he was never scoped. My current vet thinks that could be the summer he contracted it and the ulcer misdiagnosis was the lymph glands in his digestive area becoming inflamed and sore.


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## jaydee

That's the trouble with Lymes - it is easily diagnosed as something else and often multiple things going on at the same time because it can affect so much of the horse it often gets missed.


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## kiltsrhott

Just out of curiosity, what were Cinny's symptoms, and what was the progression?

I've been having troubles with my own horse and my vet suspects Lyme. I expect results on Ursula's blood work tomorrow. I'm just curious to see how symptoms compare.

Noticable problems began over the winter when Ursula started head tossing, and running through the bit. This spring she became overly sensitive and began bolting. It started during just dismount and progressed to when anything was on or near her back, even if it's not touching her, but just caught in her peripheral vision. Something as simple as lifting the saddle flaps will set her off now. She's been generally tense. She walks with her head elevated and her ears drawn back, even on a lead. She has now started to spook and behave dangerously in the barn and on turnout when no one is around. She even pulled the window out of her stall!

I had her saddle fitted within the past 6 months, and her teeth floated this spring. Those were my first thoughts after she started running through her bit and bolting for no good reason. The vet examined her and could not find anything physically wrong with her, but the vet did note loss of vision in the rear quadrant of both eyes. She is uncertain if Ursula's blind spots are congenital or are due to inflammation in the optic nerve. She said her top differential at this point is Lyme.


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## Cinnys Whinny

kiltsrhott said:


> Just out of curiosity, what were Cinny's symptoms, and what was the progression?
> 
> I've been having troubles with my own horse and my vet suspects Lyme. I expect results on Ursula's blood work tomorrow. I'm just curious to see how symptoms compare.
> 
> Noticable problems began over the winter when Ursula started head tossing, and running through the bit. This spring she became overly sensitive and began bolting. It started during just dismount and progressed to when anything was on or near her back, even if it's not touching her, but just caught in her peripheral vision. Something as simple as lifting the saddle flaps will set her off now. She's been generally tense. She walks with her head elevated and her ears drawn back, even on a lead. She has now started to spook and behave dangerously in the barn and on turnout when no one is around. She even pulled the window out of her stall!
> 
> I had her saddle fitted within the past 6 months, and her teeth floated this spring. Those were my first thoughts after she started running through her bit and bolting for no good reason. The vet examined her and could not find anything physically wrong with her, but the vet did note loss of vision in the rear quadrant of both eyes. She is uncertain if Ursula's blind spots are congenital or are due to inflammation in the optic nerve. She said her top differential at this point is Lyme.


This is basically the time line of things with Cinny in a nutshell

May 2010 I bought Mr Cinny. A sweet, lovable puppy dog of a horse. Really in your pocket, playful and very willing to learn. He was pretty much a pasture pet for his whole life and was 7 years old and just green broke though he had thrown someone pretty hard after training. I moved him to a friend's pasture the first month I had him so that I could put ground manners on him which were sorely lacking, and then he was moved to a stable. He was in a pasture with tall grass 24/7 for 3 weeks and became a bit overweight. He also had a weird red swollen patch on his hind legs which then turned into a bad fungus situation. It was not a typical "bulls eye" just what looked like a fungus outbreak that had become red and swollen.

By September 2010 he was very ground broke with wonderful manners. He would lead anyway including over tarps, under clotheslines with ****s and tarps on them while pomeranians nipped at his feet and barked at him (he was being boarded at a friend's pasture). He would come running from the pasture at just a whistle and we had started under saddle.

By December he was walking and trotting under saddle and beginning to canter. We were working with a dressage trainer and he was quickly learning his basics. A friend who travels nationally competing cross country started his canter work for me because he lacked confidence and I wanted a good confident rider on him with a great seat.

About February 2011 he seemed to start to have anxiety issues. Mild crankiness, head tossing, grinding his teeth. I thought it was probably because he went from a life of being in a big dry lot with other horses to being in a box stall. I moved stables so that he could have a stall with a run.

Spring 2011 he became inconsistent with good days and bad days. I thought it was just personality. I took him to his first dressage show and he did very well getting low 60's in his intro classes. He was relaxed and seemed to enjoy the event center.

Summer 2011 we started doing a lot of trail riding which he also enjoyed. He would walk over any bridge, hop any log and had a lot of fun. He still had "off" days however, where he was cranky and started coming back from rides seeming tense or like his muscles were tensed up instead of loose and flacid. I had a saddle fitter come out, switched tack, bits, bridles etc. 

Winter 2011 we didn't ride as much. He was pretty good though he still had some cranky days. Vet diagnosed him with sacroiliac issues and he was put on a supplement as well as monthly chiro.

Spring 2012 we went to the dressage show again (I like to take him to the first on of the season here). He was more tense than the year before, and got slightly lower scores in the high 50's this time. Through spring he became increasingly more and more easily agitated, cranky, and hard to work with.

Summer he was diagnosed with Ulcers and was put on stall rest for 2 months with doses of Omeprozal. When he came back he was a new horse but it only lasted for a few months. The stable hands were starting to label him as "hard to handle" and "high strung." I caught one hitting Cinny with sticks to chase him into his run so that he could close him out and clean his stall. I was FURIOUS to say the least I decided that "THIS" must be the reason for the behavior change and moved him immediately.

At the new barn his attitude slowly went downhill. He started having issues with back soreness, overall crankiness and became hard to catch. I bought a new saddle and had it fitted to him. I changed bits again. I had chiro done. I put him on ulcer meds thinking it was a flare up. It only helped a little. I found out that the barn owner was giving lessons on him behind my back (a kids parent came up and thanked me for letting her daughter ride Cinny in a lesson) so once again he was moved out to the stable he is at now.

Spring 2013 More crankiness, more ulcer meds, more back soreness. So we did more chiro, changed farriers, had another vet work up. Then he seemed fine. I took him to the show beginning of the season, this time low 50's in Intro and a ton of judges comments saying I need to go back to square one in training. It was seeming like each day Cinny forgot more and more of his training and became more and more easily agitated and irritated. It got so bad that even on the lunge (which he has always lunged like an angel) he would seem to run scared. Any noise the saddle made, every creek, I couldn't even run the stirrup up without him jumping out of his skin. If I lunged him with the saddle on he would literally run with tucking his butt and tail between his legs like a dog being chased by a broom. It's as if he thought he had a mountain lion on his back! The vet diagnosed him with Magnesium deficiency and he was put on a high mag supplement for it. It helped for about a month.

I bought a thinline half pad, a nice girth, a Micklem bridle, all trying to get him "comfortable." And they usually worked but only for about a week. Fall 2013 he mysteriously became lame on the left front. Vet came out, did xrays, found nothing. He said it was probably soft tissue injury and put Cin on stall rest for a month. He came out and was fine but cranky.

Summer 2013 he started getting anxiety on trail. My horse that was such a wonderful trail horse started dancing in place, sweating profusely and acting like every bush was going to eat him. It didn't matter if we were alone or with other horses. Finally he did a big spook and levitated about 10 feed sideways putting me on the ground. He took one look at me, rolled his eyes back in his head, reared and took off at a gallop for the stable.

I gave him a few weeks off. He was fine for a few days and then became mysteriously lame in the right fore. Again, xrays, exams etc which turned up nothing. Vet put him on stall rest again.

Winter 2013 not a lot of riding but I got sucked into doing a Quadrille team test at the spring show. Our only riding was to practice for that and it was mostly trot. He started acting like he didn't want to be messed with at all, however. He has always loved being groomed but started flinching which I brushed him. He had a very hard time picking up his hind legs and would act like they were cramping up. He got so bad that he began kicking at me when I would groom him around his left stifle or try to pick up that leg. Vet couldn't figure it out but thought it might be a pulled ligament and put him on stall rest. He also started quickly losing muscle mass, a LOT of muscle mass.

At the show he was fine as long as nobody was on his back. Once i was on him he because a big ball of agitated,cranky mess. Our tests looked more like tantrums with him hopping, rearing, snorting, head tossing and trying every attempt to bolt. Scores were mid 40's again in INTRO. 

I made another vet appointment to have him looked at for "kissing spines." However my favorite vet who lives an hour out was at our stable one day doing a Chiro clinic and looked at Cinny and said Cin was a "classic case" for Lime. He didn't do a test as he doesn't trust them as they have a lot of false positives and put him on the Doxy right away. He was also pulled off of all the other supplements as we are now presuming the ulcers and mag deficiency were misdiagnosed and are a common misdiagnosis with Lyme.

He is almost done with the month of doxy and he is a completely different horse! I have mainly just done ground work with him but on the ground he is back to his old self. Even with the Pessoa which he wasn't used to he was able to relax down and get to work. He wouldn't have done that a few months ago, he would have probably run scared freaked so bad it would have been broken or he would have been hurt with it which is why I never tried one with him before. I have been bareback on him a few times at a walk and he was a DREAM. No head tossing, etc. He has always hated to be ridden bareback so this is a big deal.

Your horse sounds like it is along the lines of Cinny. There are many things that can cause similar symptoms which is why it is so hard to be sure. I would write down everything you can, when it started, etc to discuss with your vet. There are so many illnesses that are gradual and what may seem like something not important could make all the difference in diagnosing.

Good luck!


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## kiltsrhott

Thanks for the detailed explanation! This sounds very similar to what Ursula and I have been going through for the past few months. Your Spring 2013 paragraph describes, to a T, what Ursula is doing right now. Anything that I do with the saddle freaks her out. I can groom her and tack her up without an issue, but if I lift the saddle flap, run the stirrups up or down, pat the seat with my hand, she tucks her tail between her legs, sits down and runs. Forget mounting.

I've been working with my riding instructor and trying to address this as a training issue. We've been working with a plastic bag tied to the end of a carrot stick and the crinkling that this plastic bag makes when it's near her back or her neck elicits the same reaction. Positive reinforcement and many hours of exposure to these types of stimuli seem to be making little to no difference. She'll have good days and bad days but right now her bad days outnumber her good days.


Last year, Ursula and I went to a pleasure show once a month and did well. We rode at least three times per week. We went on trail rides and started lessons over fences. She hadn't offered to bolt, buck, spook or do anything even remotely bad for at least two years. She was running to the gate to greet me. She seemed genuinely happy. Now she just doesn't seem happy. She just seems tense, agitated and afraid, all the time, with and without tack.


The first conclusion my vet jumped to when I described the symptoms was Lyme. I know Lyme is endemic in my area. All of my parents' dogs test positive. One dog died from complications of Lyme. I know at least three people who have been treated for it, and I have found many ticks on Ursula. I usually find them on her neck, near her mane.


Part of me is hoping this is Lyme because Lyme is treatable and the prognosis is usually good, if treated accordingly. Though I have read that subluxations in the neck can cause similar symptoms. If the Lyme results are negative, my next step is to call a Chiro and I will hope it's that. Treating a subluxation can be much quicker and more affordable to treat... but that's only if that is indeed the root of her problems. If I don't find Lyme and if the Chiropractor comes up with no solutions I don't know where I'll go next... 


This is the test I'm having done on Ursula. It's relatively new, and it is much improved from existing alternative methods. It's also a really interesting read on the topic.
https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/docs/Lyme_Disease_Multiplex_Testing_for_Horses.pdf
I expect results tomorrow and I'm itching to hear what they are.


I'm really glad to hear treatments are going well for your horse. It must be such a relief to have found a solution and finally be back on the right track. Cinny looks great! He's such an attractive horse. I can't wait to see more updates! Maybe Ursula and I will be able to start a recovery thread soon too. :]


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## Cinnys Whinny

What really sucks is that I have been feeling sick off and on for a little over a year myself. I used to always find ticks on me when Cinny was in that pasture at my friend's. I used to only get migraines maybe once or twice a year. Now I get them once or twice a week. I frequently have flu like syptoms that go away overnight. For instance at about 5pm I will get that chilled feeling, burning skin, sore throat, body aches, head ache "I'm going to be sick tomorrow" feeling, but then wake up fine the next dayl I haven't had energy since I don't know when, but have been chalking it up to being by myself with an autistic 4 year old boy 24-36 hours at a time while my hubby is at work on the railroad. Heart palpatations to the point it takes my breath away. I keep gaining weight even though I watch what I eat an exercise and have baffled a certified nutritionist. Usually the more you exercise, the more energy you eventually have, but it never works for me. I can walk/jog 5 miles a day for weeks and after a month it still knocks me on my butt. In fact, if I do anything drastic like go to the fair, go to a horse show, etc, the next day I'm bedridden with fever, headache, and my whole body hurting so bad I can barely move.

I went to my doctor and told her this and told her I was worried because my horse has recently been diagnosed with Lyme and I'm with him all the time. Her only response was that I couldn't get it from my horse, you can only get it from ticks. I had to explain to her that I was in that field 2-3 hours a day, almost every day with him and had ticks on me too..... I felt like sayind "duh, I know but if I'm in the same place HE picked up a tick with Lyme disease, doesn't that mean I could have also picked up a tick with it???" geeze.

Anyway, I finally talked her into testing me, but she also is running a crap load of other tests as well. I may just be freaking myself out but I think I have a lot of the human symptoms. I watched a documentary on Youtube called "under our skin" about Lyme disease and the way our medical industry is addressing it that freaked me out even more. I shouldn't have watched it. But anyway....

Cinny was awesome tonight. I turned him out and then rode him around bareback in just a halter for maybe 10 minutes. Just a walk still. This is the first time anyone at my barn has seen me ride him in 2 months. Someone even came up to me and said "I didn't know you got a new horse already" ha ha. A lot of people know Cinny was about to go retire to pasture and I was going to get an OTTB when we thought he had Kissing Spines. It was fun to see everyone's surprise that it was actually Cinny being a completely different and relaxed horse.


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## jaydee

Always be aware that its the ticks you usually don't see that give you or your horse or dog Lymes. The large ticks we pick off them are 'dog ticks' and although they look nasty and can cause secondary infections they won't cause Lymes. The nasty little deer ticks can be so small - often the size of a poppy seed - you never notice them at all especially if they get in the mane or feathers but they do seem more inclined to leave a swollen sore area than the dog ticks do but that can easily be confused with any other sort of bite if the things fallen off by then.
How to identify different ticks


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## Spanish Rider

If it's any consolation, your symptoms do not coincide with what mine were. And, I never saw a deer tick on myself, either. I did see one on my son, and they are much smaller than regular ticks. I saw what I thought to be a new freckle on his neck (he was 4, so I had him memoried), and when I got my face in there to inspect it, I saw it was a tick. Miniscule, believe me! Plus, I was told that the ticks have to be latched on for 24h to transmit the disease, so you should always look yourself over when you come in at night.

Certain doctors in certain areas are more up on Lyme disease. In the ER at the hospital, they did CT scans and spinal taps, to no avail. When the _erythema migrans_ rash appeared a week later, a local physician diagnosed me right away and prescribed doxycycline before the test results came back. He was _way_ more knowledgeable than the ER doctors, who even looked at a hot, red, raised área I had on my inner thigh and said, "Oh, that's nothing."

Where are you at? I could recommend this physician to you if you're near Marlborough, MA.

P.S. Erythema migrans only appears in some 50% of cases.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

And if you are testing, make sure you are doing the test with iGenex labs.

At least in the states it is recognized as a disease. For me I am covering all my own expenses and am unable to get long term doxy. Regardless - there are studies coming out showing that doxy (and antibiotics in general) do not affect the colonies of bacteria, leaving bacteria in the body after treatment. I'm going to try an alternative treatment, but if that doesn't work I am going to have to travel to the US. I can recommend a great LLMD on the west coast.
But yeah - Lymes is a steep learning curve for sure. It helps to have a great Dr behind you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

There are some useless doctors here in the US as well - I'm currently on a course of Doxy after the Western Blot and the SED test showed results - but the Lymes test will almost always show negative in the first 7 to 10 days and some GP's here are still going by that - and hitting it hard in the first 10 days is crucial in clearing it up.
The first doctor I saw here wanted to put me on an anti-depressant drug Cymbalta used to treat Fibromyalgia - the second one I went too put me on a 3 week course of Doxy with instructions to go back before I finished the course in case I needed to be on it for longer. The first week I felt worse than I did at the start and the Doxy made me feel really sick but after that the improvement was really fast and the headache, exhaustion and terrible aches and pains have all gone.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Yes, and those are really typical results with the doxy. It's not because all the bacteria are dead - but because they've "colonized" and put up a protective film. After you are off the doxy for a while, your symptoms will slowly start to come back.
Lymes can be put into remission for years - but it is still there.

I've been undiagnosed for close to 2 years from what I can figure. I am starting treatment in July and I'm excited to see what the results will be. I've already lost so much so I'm hoping that with treatment I can regain a lot of my vision, balance, coordination, etc.. Already with treating all the co-infections I am feeling so much better, but still have a long way to go.
I can report on how this really non standard treatment goes. I'm thinking it will be successful based on what I've read. That also might be my reluctance to spend $10,000+ on treatment in the states talking though 
But, super interesting research nonetheless.
JMO the 2-4 week course of antibiotics suggested is way, way too short.


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## egrogan

My local NPR station devoted their full hour today to talking Lyme disease prevention and treatment. Listen to the story here if you want-More Ticks Means More Concern About Lyme Disease | New Hampshire Public Radio and if you don't have time to listen to the story, lots of very interesting links and resources included on the website. Hearing all your stories about your illness and treatment makes me feel quite lucky I've never contracted it given where I've lived most of my life. Wishing you all success in finding doctors who can help!


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## Cinnys Whinny

Jaydee, I'm in Nebraska. I'm still waiting for all the various tests to come back from my doctor. Yesterday I actually felt pretty good. Played with Cinny, got some much needed housework done and now today my head is killing me and my body feels like I went to the gym and tremendously over did a workout. I was sitting in a chair and my little 6 pound dwarfish cat jumped into my lap and it felt like someone stabbed me with 4 knives in my legs. There is definitely something wrong. I've looked up doctors in the US who do specialize in alternative treatments for Lymes and are more on the up and up. There are none in NE but there is one in Kansas City which is about 4 hours from here. I have family in KC and we have been toying with the thought of moving there ourselves. There is also another one in Iowa but I think it's about the same driving time.

Back to Cinny, he has finished his Doxy. The vet will be out next week to check on him. So far so good, he is a very different horse than he has been in years. But part of me has this dread that it's just going to come back. I'm giving him a day off as I am really quite incapacitated myself and it's all I can do right now to manage my son.


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## jaydee

It took the two of my horses that had it another month of Doxy to get them right so be prepared to do that
I'm starting to think that I had it for a long time before this recent treatment - it was the terrible pain, total loss of balance and record breaking headache that made me go to the Docs but I've had aches and pains, poor vision, fatigue, dizziness and pins and needles/numbness in my arms and hands that would come and go and get written off as other things for a few years now
They say that the returning symptoms are a new infection or some sort of autoimmune thing that the Lymes triggers in you but I'm not sure I buy that. They worry about increasing the length of time you're on the Doxy in case the bacteria gets a resistance to it but IMO not killing it all off is more likely to do that
The tick problem is out of control now and nothing has ever really been done to try to contain it. I can't go for a walk or ride here anywhere that involves long grass or low branches without coming back with ticks on me


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## Cinnys Whinny

Today was Cinny's first "real" ride since April 5. I said "real" because I have walked him around bareback for a few minutes, but didn't really "ride" until today, I'm talking full tack, saddle, the works. We started with a 15 minute warm up on the lunge with his Vienna reins and then I climbed aboard. I used a German Martingale on the very longest setting just to remind him of "long, low, supple" and we went for a 15 minute walk. I can tell that he really needs to build up his stamina because he was huffing a bit, even at the walk and after 15 minutes we had a nicely damp blanket. I kept the reins relatively loose so he could stretch down nicely.

He feels so different. He was very relaxed with his neck stretched and his poll about the height of his withers. I could feel him playing with his back and he seemed like he almost expected pain and was pleasantly surprised and happy when there wasn't. It felt like a nice, easy "pleasure" walk.


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## jaydee

That sounds good - I think it might take him a while to learn to not expect pain. Horses seem to have long memories for things that scare them or hurt them


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## Cinnys Whinny

Today I think we may have had a setback. I groomed Cinny and then tacked him up. After I put the saddle on, I went to get the bridle, and when I turned around Cinny was tucking his tail between his legs and his butt under again as if a bee had stung him. I warmed him up on the lunge line and about 5 minutes in to lunging he again tucked his tail and butt under and pinned back his ears.... again like he had just been stung by a wasp or something.

Riding him, he was fine. We went for our first trot under saddle and he was fine. A little rushy and it took him about half an hour to relax down, but then he was perfect. The vet said it may take a while for him to stop associating pain with being worked. But I am worried about his tucking his butt under again. 

The vet is coming out Wednesday morning.


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## Golden Horse

Is this his first ride since the good one you reported? 

If he has changed shape as much as you say maybe you need to have his saddle checked again?


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## Cinnys Whinny

Golden Horse said:


> Is this his first ride since the good one you reported?
> 
> If he has changed shape as much as you say maybe you need to have his saddle checked again?


Yes this is the first ride after the last "good" ride. I wanted to give him a couple of days to recoup since he is so out of condition.

I know he has changed shape as his girth fits much looser even though he looks bigger. I have a Wintec with the full system so I did measure him again with the Wintec Measuring gauges to make sure everything is okay and the top of his back is basically the same. 

I do have a Thinline Ultra Comfrot pad (the thick one with the fleece) that helps for slight inconsistencies. The vet coming tomorrow is a chiropractor and a saddle fitter (he does fitting clinics, etc) so I will have him recheck it as well.


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## jaydee

Maybe he did have something biting him - I've often found ticks under their tails.


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## Cinnys Whinny

We did a w/t/c today, but only a 20 minute ride. Warmed up on the lunge and then rode in the arena. He had no "butt tuck" today! yay. He was a little rushy under saddle, but that is normal for him and he settled out of it after I let him canter for a few minutes. I really didn't want to canter him yet but he kind of kept insisting. It was a sweet, wonderful and balanced canter. I just dropped the reins and encouraged him to relax and "find himself" so to speak. 

Wonderful wonderful ride. We ended with a nice handwalk for about 10 minutes and a 15 minute graze to get that top line stretched!

Vet comes at 1pm.


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## jaydee

That sounds better


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## Cinnys Whinny

The vet was very pleased with Cinny's progress. We did about an hour of chiro work to get him going along even more, which Cinny actually LIKED for the first time ever. I am to watch his over all attitude and personality for changes in which case he will go on a second round of meds.

Homework, I was told to actually work him..."push him a little" so that we can get his stamina back. Hill work, and move the haunches, move the haunches, move the haunches. He is NOT happy with Cinny's hind end yet but he believes that he will continue to improve with the right work.


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## kiltsrhott

I'm so happy to heard about all the progress you're making! That is so exciting! Once you get him going a bit I want to see some more photos!

Ursula's Lyme test came back negative. This is good news because I won't have to go through the extensive treatments for Lyme, but we still don't know what's causing her sensitivity and behavioral changes.  I have another appointment for her with another vet on the 19th. This vet is also a chiro and an acupuncturist. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this vet can get to the root of the problem!


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## Cinnys Whinny

Each ride is getting better and better. Today, again, Cinny was more like a pleasure horse. we trotted around for a while on a very loose rein, something I have NEVER been able to do with him. He stayed at a steady rhythm without getting rushing, just licking his lips and enjoying himself. We did a bit of haunches work, a little canter, a LOT of free walks in between each exercise. He listened, licked, chewed and was steadily obedient and relaxed for our whole ride. 

When we were done he wanted to stretch his head down so I didn't tie him to untack. He just stood with his head stretched down, flicking is ears and licking.

I would say that today was the best ride I have EVER had wit him...and I mean EVER.


Here is a picture of him relaxed and chewing just before I took the bridle off. He used to look all stressed out after a ride, but now he's just chilling and watching my friend grain her horse.


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## jaydee

That sounds really positive


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## Cinnys Whinny

I was just looking at his chiro reciept and the vet/chiro marked on it what was wrong. I can only figure out some of them. I may start another thread to find out, but maybe someone you who read this thread may know.

L(circled) Cervical Restriction (restriction in the neck?)

T4-7 Restricted (Thorasic restriction?)

L2-3 T10+11 (not sure)

PSI S R(r circled) (no clue)

Cat III L(l circled) ( could be TTT or roman III, no clue)

Instructions are to work on his stamina and to move the haunches as much as possible.

One thing I noticed this week is that he has lost all ability to do a turn on the fore. He used to be able to do a 360 on the fore both directions with no difficulty at all 3 years ago, now he can't do even a quarter turn. I will be working him on the ground to get this back. Under saddle I have started doing leg yields, and rail work with haunches in and haunches out. I'm going to have to break out my 101 Dressage Exercises and 101 Schooling exercises to find some more good haunch work to do.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Today kind of felt like a setback. But I'll give the Cin man a chance because 1) they have only turned out the horses once in the past 2 weeks due to rain and mud (enough to drive any horse insane) 2) Because we were in the scary arena and 3) there were circumstances beyond Cinny's imagination.

Oh, and stupid me decided not to lunge first because I was pressed for time with a babysitter. So anyway, he was using his back well, but then got rushy and acted a bit aggravated. He was not Tossing his head, but was generally ****y and had a one track mind, which was CANTER CANTER CANTER. I was getting ready to end our ride when I heard loud honking getting closer and closer on the street leading in to the stable. Then an suv pulled into the driveway next to the arena and the driver laid in to the horn with a big long blast. Cinny, was clearly very unsettled about this. But before I could think about dismounting all 4 doors flew open and out flew a few kids and 3 dogs all bouncing, screaming, barking with a big commotion (it was the BO's grand kids coming to visit). That was it, Cinny came absolutely unglued and bolted. One reins stop just put us into a 2meter canter circle and knocked him off balance so I had to let loose a bit to keep us from falling in an upcoming mud pond at the end of the arena. He finally settled into a halt and I talked calmly to him for a while.

I made him walk one time around a 20 meter in the center of the arena and he relaxed down a bit. I dismounted and left the arena. I asked the BO if I could let Cinny come see what the commotion was about, which she was fine with. At first he snorted but then the kids started lavishing him with attention. I think he actually had an "I feel dumb" expression on his face ha ha. 

So, he has tomorrow off and then I ride again Wednesday. I will see how he is then, and ride in the arena he likes. If he still seems like he's going backwards I will call the vet for another round of Doxy. So bummed, I was really hoping we were over but I knew there was a big chance this would happen.


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## tinyliny

still, you handled that well.


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## jaydee

That sounded more like a circumstances thing than a Lymes set back - 2 weeks with no turnout and only light exercise is enough to get most horses wired - then all it takes is a trigger to set them off and they lose self control


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## Sahara

Cinnys Whinny said:


> 1) they have only turned out the horses once in the past 2 weeks due to rain and mud .


Can someone explain this to me? Is this to preserve limited pastures from getting torn up? 

I keep my horses on my own property and they are out 24/7. After 35 years of horses we haven't lost a single one to rain or mud. LOL


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## Cinnys Whinny

Sahara said:


> Can someone explain this to me? Is this to preserve limited pastures from getting torn up?
> 
> I keep my horses on my own property and they are out 24/7. After 35 years of horses we haven't lost a single one to rain or mud. LOL


If I had control of the situation, Cinny would be turned out rain or shine. However we have a Barn Manager who totally BABIES the horses to death. Pair that up with an Owner who is picky about the grounds, and well, life sucks in the spring when you are a horse at my barn.

I can kind of understand the grounds. Our barn is a State Historical Building, they actually do tours of it during the week of "Tour of Historical Homes." Plus the actual owners of the place are an older couple who don't have it as easy to fix torn up turnouts, especially when there are 25 of them on the property. 

Yes I should move. But I really really like this barn. I have had a few issues, but I have had more at other barns in the area. Plus we had one major bording facility literally burn to the ground last December, one closed a month ago, and then another was hit by a tornado just last week. The area is very very short on places to move too. The only boarding facility that has openings is the one with no trails, miniature arenas and has had 5 mysterious sudden deaths in the past year (they only board 20 horses so that's a high amount). 

In all honesty, I should have taken advantage of the empty front arena and turned him out to play either before riding or instead of riding.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Here's a picture of the historic barn and the front arena. Cinny's stall is where the first window to the left of center, the one without any bushes, etc around it.


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## kiltsrhott

Beautiful stable!

That sucks he can't get as much turnout as you like. I've been at boarding stables like that before, and there's not always much that can be done. If you live in an area that has wet springs the pastures _will_ get torn up if you turn horses out on them too early in the season. Luckily, with my horses on my grandparent's farm we have so much land for just 8 horses that it's not as big of a deal.

It sounds like you're handling your hiccups in stride. We all have bad days, and all you can do is work through them and move on. Don't be discouraged!


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## Zexious

That /is/ a beautiful stable 

Can you personally turn them out? Maybe in the arena?


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## Cinnys Whinny

Zexious said:


> That /is/ a beautiful stable
> 
> Can you personally turn them out? Maybe in the arena?


Only when the arena is dry. It is in need of some TLC, which is in the works when the rain season is over. For now it gets big 20m mud puddles on either end ha ha. Cinny LOVES to play in the mud, but I don't really like the mess he makes ha ha.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Whew, Cinny was a PISTOL today. I turned him out in the front arena after a warm up on the lunge and he flew. I mean he LITERALLY FLEW!!!! When it rains we get a few small "ponds" in our outdoor, one on each end of the arena. In the back it's usually a good 15m in size and the front a good 10m. Cinny is used to them and generally avoids them.

But today he took off from the back of the arena at a full gallop. He came up on that front puddle pretty fast and I braced myself expecting the worst....for him to not turn fast enough to go around it, slip and slide and land in the fence. But he didn't, he JUMPED the entire puddle! Then, he circled around and jumped it AGAIN!!! He circled around and jumped it about 4 times. Each time he landed cleanly without so much as a teeny splash or bit of mud getting on him. And each time he squealed, jumped, pronked and spun around, I thought he would do backflips he was so dang proud of himself.

I think Cinny is still trying to get it through my thick skull that he wants to be a Jumper and NOT a dressage horse! And I really regret NOT videotaping today's turnout.

Afterward I rode him bareback with the bitless attachment for his Micklem. He was settled, calm, and seemed to really enjoy the ride. I concentrated on walking correctly and moving haunches back and forth. Then I rode the rail and would randomly stop and with his head to the rail make him move his haunches to do a 180 and go back the other direction.

A very satisfying day for both of us.


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## jaydee

Maybe you should think about trying him with some jumping - just because a horse has the ability to do dressage doesn't mean that they will enjoy it. Jazzy has ability by the bucketloads but she gets bored with dressage really fast and starts to get inventive - jumping is far more appealing to her, maybe Cinny is the same?


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## Viranh

Cross training is good for them. My TB gets bored if we do only dressage. Jumping Cinny could be good for him, and maybe you'll both decide you like it. Glad he seems to be feeling better!


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## Cinnys Whinny

Actually, I had thought just that. I even had a jump saddle same make/style as his dressage that I know fits him ordered about a week before his Lymes diagnosis. The saddle was backordered so I cancelled it so as to better afford his medications. I'm hoping to get one for my birthday/Christmas.

For now, my Wintec 500 should be fine. It's got a shorter flap and feels more like an all purpose anyway. I just have to find the flexi blocs for it because I don't use them for dressage only trail right now.


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## DuffyDuck

If his back has changed that much, the saddle may need refitting.

Have you ridden him past a walk since the incident in the barn?

Right now jumping would be the last thing on my mind. As I said with using the Pessoa, he isn't ready for it. He'd more likely injure himself than gain any benefit from it, whether it be free jumping or cross rails with a rider.


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## Cinnys Whinny

DuffyDuck said:


> If his back has changed that much, the saddle may need refitting.
> 
> Have you ridden him past a walk since the incident in the barn?
> 
> Right now jumping would be the last thing on my mind. As I said with using the Pessoa, he isn't ready for it. He'd more likely injure himself than gain any benefit from it, whether it be free jumping or cross rails with a rider.


Ha ha, I completely agree! I'm not saying I'm going to get on his back and start fences today, I meant in the future. We have a long way to go, I agree. There is a LOT of work down the road. For now my goal is to possibly go to the end of season schooling show (In September) and try him at Intro A and B and see how he does anxiety/stress wise. That is the ONLY thing we are working towards. My trainer has us doing mostly haunch work as prescribed by vet/chiro as well as walking up the hills on trail with a goal of being able to take 3-4 steps, halt, 3-4 steps, halt all the way up the hills. This is currently being done in hand. Work towards going over fences will not be started of until Spring 2015 and only with the approval of our doc.

The saddle was refitted last time the chiro came out (he is also the well known saddle fitter in the area) and he says it's fine, I just need another girth. He's been filling out a lot through his shoulders and improving top line and now holds his back and stomach properly instead of letting his tummy just hang like a preggo mare. He says this is why the girth has changed drastically, he's actually "using his core" now.


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## Cinnys Whinny

The weather has been absolutely HORRIBLE lately. Rain, tornadoes, humidity, heat. So Cinny hasn't been worked much this week. Yesterday I brought my daughter for the first time since his diagnosis and she groomed him and played with him in the turnout. I have now confirmed that it is NOT my imagination, Cinny is a very different horse personality wise. My daughter says he is fun again like when I first got him.

He actually PLAYED in the turnout today, this time with a small branch that fell off of a tree into the arena. He picked it up, tossed it around, stomped it, picked it up, tossed it into the air and spun around and bucked at it like he was trying to kick it before it hit the ground or something. He played with that stick for a good half hour! Again, didn't have the cameras ready, gah. 

Then we went in for a nice heavy misting of fly/tick spray and electrolytes. Then I put up his new stall guard (It's SmartBlue but in the pictures it looks pink for some reason). My stable does not allow us to put fans on stalls, but we can put stall guards on and open the windows completely so at least it help. We DO have ceiling fans in the center aisle too and they are usually outside in the turnouts all day unless it's super muddy.


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## Tazzie

I love your stall sign! When I saw it pop up on Facebook, I KNEW it had to be for him!


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## Cinnys Whinny

Yeah, I was pretty lucky to get on the waiting list last fall before she closed it down. A few of us at my barn put in the order together


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## Cinnys Whinny

Cinny's workouts have been going really well. I've been alternating a day of lunge and handwork with a day of riding. Today I had planned just a light "loosen up" workout because yesterday I myself started this intense thigh workout and my thighs are KILLING ME!!!. Hubby came so I actually have some video of me riding, finally!!! I watched it, it's horrible, my seat still SUCKS after not riding for so long. I also get nervous when I know I'm being watched or videoed so I forget to actually "ride" as my trainer says.

Anyway, here it is, it's not perfect but I think it does show that he has improved greatly since the video from the show (first weekend of April). Before I get razzed about the German Martingale, my trainer has me working him in it on the loosest setting, just enough to remind him it's nicer to stretch down. Today she didn't do a lot of that, but he has been.....I just don't have proof ha ha. 

Also please don't laugh at my chest. My hubby got me this new aerobics bra that is supposed to be awesome and hold you your chest so that it doesn't move at all. After 5 minutes on Cinny we could see it was a big hoax  Hubby liked it, but I'll go back to my old exercise bras thank you.


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## Cinnys Whinny

*Good news, and really bad news *

Today our wonderful Dr Z came out again. I haven't ridden Cin since the day we did those last videos because when I watched them closely I could see that he had a slight head bob at the trot. I figured it was just chiro.

The good news is, it is NOT the lyme disease coming back. There is no signs yet that he is having a relapse. Yay.

But then I got some grim news. Now that Cinny has no residual swelling, and his body has had 2 months to get back to normal, there are some permanent problems. His Sacroiliac joint and hips are SHOT. It could be from before Lymes or it could be a result of all of the swelling from the Lymes. He is gaining muscle in his hind and at first glance the vet thought he was looking much better. But under the muscle mass are deteriorated joints. He placed my hands on various places in his SI area and moved his legs around and all I felt was a lot of grinding and Cin would put his ears back and bite out. He is not a happy camper right now.

So, he is pretty much "done." Dr Z said we could start giving him injections every 2-4 weeks if I wanted to continue, but I really don't think that is in Cinny's best interest at this point. Light occasional rides are fine, 3 days a week of low level dressage work is not okay. It was also suggested that he no longer be kept in box stalls and that even his daily turn out pen is not big enough for his physical health as he can't even pick up a good trot in it, let alone canter and cavort. Some changes need to be made.

Just when I thought he was getting better. AND we have decided to move back to CA and take him with us. I imagined nice canters in the creekbed at my old stable, but now it will never happen. Pretty much every boarding stable in OC has just 12X24 or 24X24 stalls and NO daily turnout. I think Cinny is best left here so now I need to find a home for him with someone to love on him, groom him, maybe do in hand showmanship (which he likes) and an occasional light rides. That is going to be really tough to find.


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## frlsgirl

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Today our wonderful Dr Z came out again. I haven't ridden Cin since the day we did those last videos because when I watched them closely I could see that he had a slight head bob at the trot. I figured it was just chiro.
> 
> The good news is, it is NOT the lyme disease coming back. There is no signs yet that he is having a relapse. Yay.
> 
> But then I got some grim news. Now that Cinny has no residual swelling, and his body has had 2 months to get back to normal, there are some permanent problems. His Sacroiliac joint and hips are SHOT. It could be from before Lymes or it could be a result of all of the swelling from the Lymes. He is gaining muscle in his hind and at first glance the vet thought he was looking much better. But under the muscle mass are deteriorated joints. He placed my hands on various places in his SI area and moved his legs around and all I felt was a lot of grinding and Cin would put his ears back and bite out. He is not a happy camper right now.
> 
> So, he is pretty much "done." Dr Z said we could start giving him injections every 2-4 weeks if I wanted to continue, but I really don't think that is in Cinny's best interest at this point. Light occasional rides are fine, 3 days a week of low level dressage work is not okay. It was also suggested that he no longer be kept in box stalls and that even his daily turn out pen is not big enough for his physical health as he can't even pick up a good trot in it, let alone canter and cavort. Some changes need to be made.
> 
> Just when I thought he was getting better. AND we have decided to move back to CA and take him with us. I imagined nice canters in the creekbed at my old stable, but now it will never happen. Pretty much every boarding stable in OC has just 12X24 or 24X24 stalls and NO daily turnout. I think Cinny is best left here so now I need to find a home for him with someone to love on him, groom him, maybe do in hand showmanship (which he likes) and an occasional light rides. That is going to be really tough to find.


So sorry to hear all this. You are a good horse owner; you tried your best to rehab him. Hopefully you will find him a good home. Maybe he could be a companion horse for somebody?:hug:


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## jaydee

I'm so sorry to hear that after everything seemed so positive, it did sound as if he'd had Lymes for a long time though and it can cause all sorts of permanent damage.
He would likely be a nice horse for someone that had the land to keep him out most of the time and be content with some quiet trail riding.


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## Golden Horse

It sucks, big time, BUT now you know the answers you can make decisions for Cinny and yourself, no more guessing, no more highs and lows, no more constant struggle to keep him sound and always wondering if he is OK or not. I know what that feels like, and know the wondering is your horse is going to be good today.

I hope you can find a suitable home for him, good luck.


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## Cinnys Whinny

I've been thinking more and more about Cinny, how easily bored he is, etc. And my thoughts rambled on to trick training and then it dawned on me, there isn't really any reason he can't do trail classes and even ultimate trail! It's just teaching him to walk over obstacles and the such, right? He doesn't have to collect and have impulsion to do that. Another friend suggested english and western pleasure but I think that might be a bit much as his hind is too week to carry a canter more than about 10 strides. Plus he doesn't move like a pleasure horse ha ha, he moves more like a barrel horse  Most of the obstacle training I can work on in hand to start off with and then maybe do 1 or 2 days a week of brief under saddle work. I think I also might learn about in hand showmanship.


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## waresbear

I have a feeling this will be right up Cinny's alley!


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## egrogan

I really hope you can work something out so he can stay with you! You've come so far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherrij

I am so sorry that it turned out this way, but it sounds like you have it all fixed. And I am sure you can enjoy trails with him in a happy way, if he cannot enjoy dressage


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## jaydee

I think you need to discuss that with your vet - if he's in pain from the very low key dressage you're doing then he's going to be in pain from trail riding too?


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## tinyliny

is he's in pain from just walking, then his daily life will be pain, too. However, I think Cinny meant that the level of discomfort is much less when only walking, and I think that is all that is required for competitive trail. Do you mean the one where they do manmade obstacles , in an arena . what's the right name? not the one where you ride out for long distances AND do obstacles

But, its not just being able to walk that's needed, but the kind of mind and trainability to get them to go over and through obstacles and stay calm and thoughtful in the process.


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## Cinnys Whinny

I mean the one where they walk around an arena and do obstacles. Like this one..






I have already talked to his vet about what he can do and what he can't do. He says typical arena trail competitions would be GOOD for him as it will keep his brain working and keep his joints working without really straining them as long as I DON'T ask for collection, frame, etc. Just go back to neck reining and let him carry himself however he is comfortable carrying himself. 

He is NOT in constant pain, and not always in pain when riding. What causes the pain is asking him to do a lot of work collected and to have impulsion from the hind. He is to be ridden, preferably at a walk with only short bursts of trot and canter holding himself however he is most comfortable and not "pushing" him. Basically be a trail/play horse. The more he is exercised the less pain he will be in, as long as I follow the rules of not asking to collect and use his hind end so much. It's kind of opposite everything we have been doing, but it's what he has done for himself all along.


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## kiltsrhott

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I mean the one where they walk around an arena and do obstacles. Like this one..
> 
> Extreme Trail Challenge at Everything Equine - YouTube
> 
> I have already talked to his vet about what he can do and what he can't do. He says typical arena trail competitions would be GOOD for him as it will keep his brain working and keep his joints working without really straining them as long as I DON'T ask for collection, frame, etc. Just go back to neck reining and let him carry himself however he is comfortable carrying himself.
> 
> He is NOT in constant pain, and not always in pain when riding. What causes the pain is asking him to do a lot of work collected and to have impulsion from the hind. He is to be ridden, preferably at a walk with only short bursts of trot and canter holding himself however he is most comfortable and not "pushing" him. Basically be a trail/play horse. The more he is exercised the less pain he will be in, as long as I follow the rules of not asking to collect and use his hind end so much. It's kind of opposite everything we have been doing, but it's what he has done for himself all along.



I'm sorry that things aren't going to work out as planned with Cinny, but I'm glad you both found something you can do together. He's lucky to have an owner that loves him like you do. I've done obstacle trail for years, and I really love it. It's very challenging, and horse and rider really do have to communicate well to be successful. I think you and Cinny will have a lot of fun with it! Despite the fact that it's not fast or physical it never gets boring!


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## Golden Horse

Cinnys Whinny said:


> He is NOT in constant pain, and not always in pain when riding. What causes the pain is asking him to do a lot of work collected and to have impulsion from the hind. He is to be ridden, preferably at a walk with only short bursts of trot and canter holding himself however he is most comfortable and not "pushing" him. Basically be a trail/play horse. The more he is exercised the less pain he will be in, as long as I follow the rules of not asking to collect and use his hind end so much. It's kind of opposite everything we have been doing, but it's what he has done for himself all along.


I am asking this not to be mean, but to understand, and out of concern for Cinny.

How does anyone really know what sort of pain he has and when, the vet can give an opinion, but Cinny is the only one who really knows.

AS to working in collection or frame, I'm a little confused, everything I have been taught tells me that by trying to get some collection and a more rounded frame a horse can carry a rider a lot easier, certainly easier than being strung out, having a head up and tightness in the back.

As hard as it is when you have fought so hard and so long, are you the rider that Cinny needs? Watching the last video posted it looks like many that you have posted before, you just don't gel as a team, your needs and styles seem to be way off, doesn't make him a bad horse or you a bad rider, just not great together. 

You were on the point of selling him before the Lymes diagnoses, maybe you should revisit that point, and ask what is best for both of you at this point, maybe he needs someone else to take him along the next part of his journey? You were all for it then, finding yourself a partner who can take you along the dressage route, and a new role/home for Cinny were he can be happy as well.

Just thinking out loud and offering an outsiders point of view.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Golden, trust me when I say this, Cinny is not shy about communicating his pain. He can have a little itty bitty burr in his fetlock and he will throw a bucking fit over it. Remove the burr, he's happy again. Little stone bruise? He will be dead lame for a week and then milk it a few days more. When he gets his shots he grinds his teeth and bites at the vet and is a big baby about his "sore spot" for a week or more.

As my vete/chiro explaine...rounding and going through the back actually puts more pressure on the hips. This is fine for a horse that is in excellent health, and easier for them. They have great strength back there. Cinny does not. The muscles are there but it causes more pressure/wear and tear on the joint. Vet/Chiro say that allowing him to choose how he wants to carry will allow him to choose what is most comfortable.

As for the trail, part of why I want to start him on it is so that he will have a use and not be bored. When we move to CA we are planning on getting another horse suited for dressage too. Cinny will have a cozy life, mainly being a pet and having periodic rides, adventures, and things to keep his brain working. Most likely will be ridden primarily by my 15 year old daughter who just wants to sort of plug around on trails and have adventures to and NO LESSONS. Cinny will be able to teach her a lot.

A lot of people don't want a horse with Cinny's issues. If I come across he right person with a nice big pasture, then that's one story but those people are few and hard to come by. Before you get started on the local rescues, they are all full and don't want a hard to adopt out horse. I've already contacted the ones in my area.

So, the best thing to do is to find a "job" for Cinny that he can do and keep Hubby convinced that he is worth the $$ to ship from NE to CA when we move there. That is why I am looking for something Cin is able to do. 

Golden I know it's hard for you to understand, but there is really more to this than simply being able to sell him at this point. Would you buy him knowing what you know or a horse like him? Probably not....just like 99% of the population. Who wants an 11 year old with a bad/weak hind that will only get weaker? It's best to prepare for not finding him another home. It's best to find a way to get hubby on board with not just sending him to auction or something.


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## DuffyDuck

Going back to look at the ridden horse even before the treatment, the horse, as you stated above, is hardly shy about expressing his pain. 

You had issues riding him, regardless of trying frame or collection, because he was in discomfort.

That is not a horse I would put anyone on, let alone a 15yo... and as the pain is likely to get worse.... no.

I am very sorry to hear this, it's never nice to come to this sort of conclusion and last summer we had to be very realistic about my dad's mare with navicular. She'd had 8 years of treatment, and thousands thrown at her. She now lives in holland with a crazy spanish horse, and a highland cow getting fat. We thought we were going to have to put her down, but through word of mouth found an amazing home.

I know it's tough, but think long and hard about it. He tried showing you he was in pain before when you were riding him. I'd retire him and let him live his days out as long as possible.


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## Viranh

Dressage is surprisingly hard on arthritic horses. I had a mare that didn't take a lame step on steep, long (3 hours, give or take) trail rides at walk/trot with a short canter every now and then, but doing dressage 3x a week she went completely lame due to arthritis in her hocks. I ended up selling her on to a trail riding home since she was bombproof and comfortable and happy doing that. It was for the best because that was not something I could give her. I do not have the time for trail riding anymore, nor the budget for a second pasture pet. 

I am so sorry that the treatment did not work out as you had hoped. I wish the best for you and Cinny and I hope that he can be comfortable in some lighter work.


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## Cinnys Whinny

Keeping fingers crossed. A really nice lady that used to board at my stable (she moved because she found pasture for ALL of her herd as she had them split up at 5 different stables) just put ink on papers for property with a pasture. She is just waiting for escrow and it's hers. SHE WANTS CINNY to be part of her herd of little misfits. She is a WONDERFUL lady, Cinny already loves her and she said she bonded with Cinny when she was at my barn too. I couldn't ask for a better situation for him. I still have a "back up plan" which sadly does include convincing hubby to move him with us, but I am really really keeping my fingers crossed that escrow goes smoothly. She is pretty much one of the few people that I would just hand him over to with no feelings of doubt whatsoever.

Everyone, cross your fingers and toes for her escrow to go great!!!


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## Golden Horse

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Golden I know it's hard for you to understand, but there is really more to this than simply being able to sell him at this point. Would you buy him knowing what you know or a horse like him? Probably not....just like 99% of the population. Who wants an 11 year old with a bad/weak hind that will only get weaker? It's best to prepare for not finding him another home. It's best to find a way to get hubby on board with not just sending him to auction or something.


Not as hard as you may think, when I was considering Bens future last year, after he drilled the first person who came to see him into the dirt like he did to me, and with her 4 kids looking on.....I really did not believe that I would find someone who would actually want to take him on, I was scared that husbands insistence that he either be shot, or get run through the auction with no warranty would have to come to pass. With patience the right person (I hope) turned up for him. I have had no updates, I have not inquired after him, I wonder if the bullet would have been a better option?

I have also sold two horses in my life that had soundness issues, one navicular, one arthritic, both went to lovely people, where the one guy still is, and the other passed after many years. They were both sweet personalities, and went to people who just wanted to go for a walk on or with a horse sometimes. I did wonder if either of them would find a a home, but they did.

I hope 
you lead for him works out


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## Cinnys Whinny

Just thought I'd share another video of Cin playing yesterday. As you can see he is quite spry. There are now 2 pasture homes that want him as his temp home says they may want him as a halter/showmanship horse for their grandaughter. He is such a lucky boy. 

We also had a great little ride yesterday bareback with just his rope halter. His hip slipped once and he jumped a little but nothing major. I think with a light rider he should be great.

Cinny vs Roping Cow - YouTube


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## dkb811

Love seeing him running around, playing and bucking!


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## Roperchick

ohmylawd i just read through this whole thing. now your other thread about him being a hobo makes so much more sense haha

still crossing fingers that everything will work out


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