# What to do with unregistered stallion?



## Shar (Sep 25, 2009)

Hi All,
New to the site and have lots of questions and will have many more I'm sure. 

I have recently purchased a pair of half-brother Thoroughbreds from impeccable racing bloodlines. They are 5 and 6, past regular racing age, so I'm not trying to race them but I do need to know what they're capable of doing now. I have papers on the 6 year old gelding, but no papers on the 5 year old stallion, which is actually of the best in breeding of the two. The stud fee wasn't paid in full on the stallion by the original owner and the papers naturally weren't obtained as a result. I've found his sire and would be willing to pay the debt to get papers for my stallion, but at his age, and without access to the dam, I'm not likely to be successful. Here's the thing - I've had two people already tell me "don't geld that stallion!". He's a real beauty - a very dark bay color with only the tiny white trace of a stocking on the left hind leg - colored and marked exactly like his grand-sire on his sire side, Seattle Slew. His confirmation and muscle tone is excellent. He's well balanced with a beautiful head on him. He also has a great attitude to go with his looks. You don't need to see papers to know what kind of horse he is or to know he has good breeding. So should I geld him just because he doesn't have papers? Is there nothing he can do or his offspring can do without having papers? What are he and his offspring qualified for? Unregistered horses isn't a topic on any forum or any blog or any article I've seen. That topic is harder to find than the tooth fairy. 

Thx for input.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

In my humble opinion: Grade horse - geld it. 

Actually there is a blog that talks about the breeding of grade horses: fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

It sounds like he will make a fine gelding. Please don't put more unregistered horses into an already flooded horse market.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> It sounds like he will make a fine gelding. Please don't put more unregistered horses into an already flooded horse market.


Quoted for truth.


----------



## QHChik (Jun 26, 2009)

ditto to the previous posters. 

decent stud horses can make great geldings!


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Shar said:


> So should I geld him just because he doesn't have papers?


Yes.

Chances are the mare was 'average'.


----------



## Shar (Sep 25, 2009)

The mare was not "average". She was from AP Indy.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Shar said:


> The mare was not "average". She was from AP Indy.


You said you had no access to the dam.

http://www.racingmuseum.org/hall/horse.asp?ID=349

He's not an 'exceptional' stalllion.


----------



## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

I definitely agree.

If the horse is grade, geld it. We simply do not need more unregistered animals. There is nothing keeping him from performing as a gelding - he simply does not need to be bred.

If you must breed, breed your papered stallion. There are simply too many grade foals in the world. Not that yours would be grade quality - but they would still be grade.


----------



## QHChik (Jun 26, 2009)

unfortunately, without papers, that could never be proven. I hate to be like this, but really, there are plenty of grade horses floating around. They may or may not be purebreds but they are still grade and any of their offspring (purebred or not) will still be grade.


----------



## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

mls said:


> You said you had no access to the dam.
> 
> National Museum of Racing - Hall of Fame
> 
> He's not an 'exceptional' stalllion.


What do you consider an "exceptional" stallion? He was the leading sire in 2003 and 2006. Stallion Register Online - A.P. Indy

His stud fee is $250,000 which is higher than what Secretariat's was. Lane's End Stallions: A.P. Indy Normally only the betterl stallions command that type of fee.

Anyway, I do agree with everyone who says geld the unregistered stallion.


----------



## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

I was curious about that as well - what deems a stallion "exceptional?" He appears to have an excellent record. I don't know much about racing though.

I still stand by statement to geld him.


----------



## Chavez (May 18, 2009)

I agree with everyone and Say GELD him. But if he a ex race horse you can use his lip tatoo to get his papers to have for your own personal use and resale value. But as everyone has said before we have enough unwanted foals in the world we do not need any more to try and find good homes for


----------



## RoosterDo (Feb 11, 2009)

Im thinking snip snip and now you have a great gelding, you also wont be making anymore unwanted horses. Not to say he wouldnt make babies that went to great homes and were great horses but we just have too many already and you cant guarantee that they wouldnt end up in a slaughter house.


----------



## Shar (Sep 25, 2009)

I didn't want to get onto the topic of paper snobbery, but since the discussion is now open...I suppose you guys are right. I'm sure the piece of paper causes a horse to have better confirmation. I'm sure the piece of paper helps it become more athletic, makes it a more intelligent animal, and far superior to one without. What was I thinking? 

Where would we be today if breeders many years ago decided to geld anything without papers? The quarter horse is a fine example of mix breed origins. The Quarter Horse was not recognized as an official breed in the U.S. until around 1940 when owners of these non-papered, heinz 57, farm and ranch stock horses got together to create a breed name for their horses that were unworthy of any other registration, thus "purifying" a breed of horses that had been anything but pure bred up to that point. They knew that their horses were worthy of breeding because they understood that the horse itself and not what papers came before it. It's certainly a good thing for all of the Quarter Horse show bunnies out there that someone didn't convince the original breeders of the Quarter Horse not to breed anything that wasn't papered. After all, that horse comes from so many different types of horses, that it is impossible to trace the exact origins. By what I've been told today on this site, those unregistered horses should have never bred, the original Quarter Horses would have never been acceptable. After all, there were far more unregistered horses running around back then. Those good stallions would have made even better geldings, don't you think?

The Thoroughbred also is originally a "mix breed", but was specifically bred to be a "Thoroughbred" from it's origination, unlike the Quarter Horse. Even the Thoroughbred didn't have a stud book from the start, however. It was traced back and created after the breed was established.

Now, in the case of my stallion. He has bloodlines that can be traced back to the Godolphin Arabian, one of the three founding sires in the 1700's. His bloodlines include many of the greatest race horses in history - and the fastest, as well as the only unbeaten triple crown winner in history. I suppose not having his papers due to a bad business deal by his original owners means he magically fell out of a tree and his breeding no longer exists.

I said I didn't have access to his dam. I never said I didn't know her breeding.


----------



## QHChik (Jun 26, 2009)

you asked for opinions. You got opinions. It is sad that your stallion got screwed in a bad deal, but unfortunately that is life. Its not his fault but its still the situation. He is a "grade" animal and any of his offspring would be considered "grade". Anything that can't be registered is grade. It doesn't make him of less quality. Enjoy him as a great gelding, that's my opinion.


----------



## LeahKathleen (Mar 5, 2009)

I certainly wasn't trying to put your gelding down because it didn't have papers. I was simply stating that breeding a horse without papers raises the chance of creating a foal that will be difficult to place in a home, and a horse that his limited access to shows. There are enough foals like that.

While the papers don't change a horses athleticism, conformation, personalilty, or ability, they do ensure that a horse's history can be traced - making a horse more attractive to a buyer. How well did his parents do in shows? His half brothers? His grandsire? A buyer doesn't want a verbal confirmation of a horses breeding. They want paperwork. I can walk up to any AQHA show and tell them that my horse is a double Doc bred cow horse, but they don't care. They want papers.

We are simply saying this because no home is a guarenteed forever home. Things happen, and we can't always keep the animals we intend to keep forever. If you breed for a grade foal, and something happens where you can't keep it, that horse is put on the buyer's market, and buyer's don't put large sums of money into grade horses. This means that there's a chance that you have created a foal that simply has become one of many, many unwanted grade horses. It is a wiser decision to breed the papered stallion, and in case of emercency, you have a better chance of placing the horse in a good home.

My two cents.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm surprised that you've had a hard time finding information about unregistered horses. 
Anywhere you go, the majority of answers you are going to find are the same ones you found here -- Geld him. No, papers do not make a horse. You can have an athletic, awesome grade horse. However if your horse is a racing bred stallion and it's offspring would probably be most marketable on the track, they're going to be at a disadvantage because they will not be able to be registered in the Jockey Club. 

Search "breeding" or "Stallion" in most forums archives and you're going to find the same information there as you have gotten here. 

As far as what you can do with him -- Plenty. Retrain him as a pleasure mount, jump him, whatever. Find something he enjoys doing and get him into it. However, I'm with everyone else when I say geld him.


----------



## QHChik (Jun 26, 2009)

I have to add this... you say that people understood "nice" horses before they came up with the registry, and that's true. But there also weren't as many horses as there are now. Do you know there are millions of quarter horses registered??? MILLIONS. I can't remember the number off my head and don't have time to look it up. If there are that many registered animals with points, producing offspring, and proven bloodlines/histories why would somebody want to breed to anything whose history could or could not be a made up fairy tale...

Now, before I sound really nasty, I'm not trying to say that what you are saying is a lie. BUT... it could be. With papers and the internet, I can find out every person who has ever owned my horse, just exactly what shows he's been to, how he placed, and the number of horses in his classes.

It doesn't mean he's a better horse... It just means that I know what I have.

Oh, and I'm a QH Show Bunnie and I love it


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Does the horse have a tatoo? I mean, was he ever registered? Did the owner withhold the papers or refuse to have the horse registered? There may be a way to get them if the horse IS in fact registered.


Are you planning to breed for speed?


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

non-papered, heinz 57, farm and ranch stock horses got together to create a breed name for their horses that were unworthy of any other registration, thus "purifying" a breed of horses that had been anything but pure bred up to that point. 

Wow... my horses resemble that remark! Since they are, afterall... AQHA's!


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Shar said:


> I didn't want to get onto the topic of paper snobbery, but since the discussion is now open...I suppose you guys are right. I'm sure the piece of paper causes a horse to have better confirmation. * I'm sure the piece of paper helps it become more athletic, makes it a more intelligent animal, and far superior to one without.* What was I thinking?
> 
> Where would we be today if breeders many years ago decided to geld anything without papers? The quarter horse is a fine example of mix breed origins. The Quarter Horse was not recognized as an official breed in the U.S. until around 1940 when owners of these non-papered, heinz 57, farm and ranch stock horses got together to create a breed name for their horses that were unworthy of any other registration, thus "purifying" a breed of horses that had been anything but pure bred up to that point. They knew that their horses were worthy of breeding because they understood that the horse itself and not what papers came before it. It's certainly a good thing for all of the Quarter Horse show bunnies out there that someone didn't convince the original breeders of the Quarter Horse not to breed anything that wasn't papered. After all, that horse comes from so many different types of horses, that it is impossible to trace the exact origins. By what I've been told today on this site, those unregistered horses should have never bred, the original Quarter Horses would have never been acceptable. After all, there were far more unregistered horses running around back then. Those good stallions would have made even better geldings, don't you think?
> 
> ...


1) 
2) Hasn't been for thousands of years. Invalid point. Nowadays, people want papers, and grade horses (yes, unless have the papers, your horse is considered grade) are considered "lesser valued" - if you want to add to the growing pool of grade horses, keep your stud intact. 
3) So do most horses, I'm not sure how this makes your horse special?My horse is "blue blooded;" he is bred up the ying-yang and has amazing bloodlines... but he's a gelding.


----------



## equus717 (Aug 20, 2009)

I would have to agree with everyone here. I have paints. But Caddo my foal out of my registered stud is out of my qh mare that I can't get her papers because I do not know her parents. This is what I know about her she came from Texas she has a brand on her left hip. I called the Texas Cattlemens Association to see what I could do to get papers or to find out about them. This is what they told me. The I on her hip is the Stallion The L is the lot and W tells the mare band she was with. That is All I know about that. I have had several people wanting to breed to Caddo when he gets 2 years old but I am gelding him because without papers he will be considered a grade. Yes I can get pinto papers on him but you know when I inquired about getting papers on him when he was first born they will not register him with them until he is gelded because of the dam. I am upset because out of the foals born this year he is what a lot of people are looking for around here. 50% white to 50% color. Caddo will be shown. The other question that you have to look at is you might get some people to breed to him but more often than not they won't. This is not to discourage but it is reality. The dam of Caddo will never be bred again. The only reason I bred her to my stud was because I wanted another foal out of her to him. She gave me a great foal one that has the attitude of the sire wants to please even at his young age. I also liked her qualities. Do you know if he had been bred to mares before? Your horses can be trained to do anything that you would like to do. Also another aspect that you are not considering for him is a studs life is rather lonely. They are kept separate from the other horses. My stud has been by himself for 4 years now that is the other reason why I am gelding Caddo to give his dad a companion. I real not have to worry about him hurting his son because he will not compete for the ladies. We breed Sky either in hand or in the pasture. You will have to make your own decision. If you can get the papers from the JC then by all means keep him a stallion. Before you do anything get in touch with the JC they should be able to tell you anything from off of his tattoo.


----------



## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

Shar said:


> I didn't want to get onto the topic of paper snobbery, but since the discussion is now open...I suppose you guys are right. I'm sure the piece of paper causes a horse to have better *confirmation*.


If we're going to be accused of being snobs, then the proper term is conformation. Confirmation is to confirm something like a reservation.



> *Now, in the case of my stallion. He has bloodlines that can be traced back to the Godolphin Arabian, one of the three founding sires in the 1700's. * His bloodlines include many of the greatest race horses in history - and the fastest, as well as the only unbeaten triple crown winner in history. I suppose not having his papers due to a bad business deal by his original owners means he magically fell out of a tree and his breeding no longer exists.


So what? So does every TB born. Each and every Thoroughbred goes back to the three founding sires.

My Paint _gelding_ goes back to Man O' War and all three founding sires. Again, so what?

I understand what the others are saying. Every magazine I read mentions the overpopulation of horses right now. 

I breed dogs. My dogs all go back to super show dogs. All of my dogs, sans the 1 year old puppy are show champions. I don't breed them all. I only breed the ones who I feel will give something back to their breed. My puppies are sold on spay/neuter contracts because I don't want them bred just because they have spectacular bloodlines.

To me, horses are no different. 

Registration doesn't always mean much. However, to me, breeding an unregistered animal just because the owner thinks he's wonderful isn't good enough in this time of horse overpopulation.

Of course, that's only my opinion.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Well I am going to go against the flow here. From what has been said the breeding on this stallion is very good. We do not have a picture of the horse so to say that it is not breeding worthy is also premature.

If I were the OP I would put the horse to an inspector and have a knowledgeable person judge whether the horse is breed worthy.

I did the same with my stallion. Yes he had paoers from his birth registry but he could never get approved there. He did not measure up as far as size in certain areas and would never be approved even though he is exceptionally well bred.

I took him to the AWS to have him put under the gun inspection wise and he passed with flying colors. A loss to his birth registry but approved according to a very knowledgable inspector. (proven by his show record also)

I would suggest the same to the OP.


----------



## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

My question is this: Why do you want to breed this horse? What do you hope to accomplish by breeding him? I'm concerned that you didn't know the word conformation so wonder about your experience breeding. 

While I agree that Spyder has good points, I'm of the opinion that, at this time, we don't need many new horses. Horses with wonderful breeding are a dime a dozen these days.

So...even if you could register this horse...what would you hope to accomplish by breeding him?


----------



## Lily of the Valley (Sep 27, 2009)

I say geld the crap out of that sucker, as does everyone else, obviously. I dunno, I'm not a fan of producing horses until they're for personal ownership/use or they're freaking one-of-a-kind. 'Cause you can find horses just as stunning as he is (which I'm sure he is) at auction, in kill pens, or at a Thoroughbred rescue facility.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I have to agree on gelding him. Even though he may be an "exceptional" stallion, the fact that he is not papered limits his opportunities to being a backyard horse, a working horse, or a competing in open shows. That in turn, would limit the opportunities to his foals because they could not be registered. And the whole reason behind papers is not to prove that a horse is better than any other, it is to prove who he is related to and what accomplishments they have made, which in turn shows what the horse might excell at. I am by no means a paper snob as of the 12 horses I currently have, only 3 have papers. And even though he may be beautiful and have really nice conformation, how can you be sure that you weren't lied to by the seller and he is nothing but another no-name foal out of no-name parents, or that the other horse is even related to him? If I were trying to sell my TB, I could claim that he is a great-grandson of horses like Secretariat and Northern Dancer but nobody could prove me either wrong or right because he has no tattoo and is not papered. 

Papers do not make a _better_ horse, they make a more _desirable_ horse in today's market.


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

smrobs said:


> Papers do not make a _better_ horse, they make a more _desirable_ horse in today's market.


 Well put, Jen.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

smrobs said:


> Papers do not make a _better_ horse, they make a more _desirable_ horse in today's market.


 
I would agree in most cases EXCEPT any registered stallion that comes from a breed or registry that does NOT approve the stallions they have standing.

I will take an APPROVED stallion over the registered one anyday.

Just because it has papers does NOT in my book make it viable to be used for breeding. There are some pretty aweful TB registered stallions out there and I will take an unpapered TB stallion that proved his worth by submitting to another registry that was more dilligent in accepting stallions because they were put through an inspection or performance testing proceedure.


----------



## reining girl (Jan 30, 2009)

geld him!! Just because he has a pretty color does not mean he should be kept a stud. If its not a reigistered horse then it shouldnt bred, there are sooooo many un wanted un registered horses its ridiculous. I know you cant ride papers, but guess what, thats what alot of people care about are papers. And yes he has a great pedigree, but unless you can register him, geld him.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Approval is a great thing and I wish more registries would do it. 

As far as I know though, to race any decent sized race, your horse must be registered in the Jockey Club. Since the horse is a racing bred stud, that would generally be his best bet for siring foals. But if I'm right, that means his offspring would not be able to be registered in the JC and so his supposed awesome racing lines/potential wouldn't really help him.


----------



## Trinity (Apr 28, 2009)

I have absolutly no opinion because I dont breed horses. I just want to see if you can post a picture of both of them? I'd like to see them  Off topic I know...


----------



## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

My suggestion is like Spyder's, get him approved. If he can get approved then I don't see a reason not to breed him to approved mares IF you have a use for the foal but don't breed just to breed. Obviously 

I have a very nice TB mare who is unregistered, but by the time she is ready to be bred (WAYYYY down the line from now, she's only 6 and eventing) she will be approved with several warmblood registries and sport pony registries so that we can get a foal that can be approved as well.

Just because he doesn't have papers doesn't make him a nice horse, saying that, I haven't seen him.

ONE of my horses is JC registered. And she has the worst conformation of the bunch.


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Approval is a great thing and I wish more registries would do it.
> 
> As far as I know though, to race any decent sized race, your horse must be registered in the Jockey Club. Since the horse is a racing bred stud, that would generally be his best bet for siring foals. But if I'm right, that means his offspring would not be able to be registered in the JC and so his supposed awesome racing lines/potential wouldn't really help him.


Very true about the racing lines not helping in any future possibilities of racing but some of the best jumpers and hunters have come frome TBs of certain lines. There is a huge demand for top hunters and many are either 100% TB or part TB from lines that have done both well and not so well in the racing game.


To arbitrarily say geld this horse without even seeing a picture is a little over the top here.

I had to ignore numerous "decisions" by others that decided (also without looking) that my horse should be gelded. And he would have been if I had any handling problems. He is too well bred and nicely put together to have done this without seeing how he turned out and if he could get approved.

With two Horse of the Year titles behind him, I obviously made the right choice and the nay sayers were talking through their hats and without any basis for their judgement.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^ That's a good point, Spyder. I wasn't thinking about certain registries that paper horses based on their accomplishments rather than breeding. I am not accustomed to those registries, being from the western world . 

That being said, I would definitely wait until he proved himself in a chosen discipline and was approved by a registry prior to ever breeding him.


----------



## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

:-( I think we lost the OP.


----------



## NordicJuniper (Jun 9, 2009)

I agree with a lot of the posters above. Take him to an appraiser and have him approved. That is just as good in my book. Unregistered horses aren't desirable in this market because there are some shows that don't allow unregistered horses, high class shows maybe but still. A horse begin registered is just a plus and draws a buyer in, just one more thing going for your horse if you ever want to sell.

As for the bloodlines and such making him worthy of breeding, I disagree. If he has great confo and temperment which you stated he does I would say go for whatever you want to do, but don't base whether or not to geld him strictly based on his bloodlines.

I have ride a *triple* registered Thoroughbred gelding, he has been gelded his entire life and has no foals on the ground. I am glad that he was, his conformation is not horrible but it is not without faults and I enjoy him being a gelding. He has amazing bloodlines I might add. He has Nearctic [set or equalled 6 track records, won/placed/showed in 29 of 47 races], Nearco [an italian racehorse that won 14 of 14 races and sired many race winners, he was credited with being a patriach to the most prominent racing line in racing history] he also has Native Dancer, Bold Ruler, War Admiral and Man O' War in his bloodlines as well as being directly related to Secretariat, Shergar, Northern Dancer, Seattle Slew, Ruffian, Barbaro, Nasrullah and many others. 

Bloodlines are everything, though they do help.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I think you meant:



> Bloodlines *aren't *everything, though they do help.


:]


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I hope we havent lost the OP. 

I find this thread pretty interesting. I'm a QH person so in "my" world you really want the papers to breed, but I think it's a pretty interesting point regarding the inspections and approvals. If I were to breed a horse for say, the hunt world then I would probably be more interested in the horses that have had to pass the inspection processes, because then I would know that my horse had the conformation to do the things I'm looking to do. I don't know a whole lot about it but I know there are different classifications when a horse passes and receives the approval or whatever it's called.

I think it's interesting and worth looking into for the OP....


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> I hope we havent lost the OP.
> 
> I find this thread pretty interesting. I'm a QH person so in "my" world you really want the papers to breed, but I think it's a pretty interesting point regarding the inspections and approvals. If I were to breed a horse for say, the hunt world then I would probably be more interested in the horses that have had to pass the inspection processes, because then I would know that my horse had the conformation to do the things I'm looking to do. I don't know a whole lot about it but I know there are different classifications when a horse passes and receives the approval or whatever it's called.
> 
> I think it's interesting and worth looking into for the OP....


To me approval is more important than the original papers.

Even if the OP is gone this is a good topic to discuss.

Take my stallion. He has papers from his birth registry but they are worthless without approval for no mare would come to him without it. Only approved stallions to approved mares will produce babies with papers.


However in my case I could not get approval as he was 1 inch shy in one measurement so he was in effect a stallion without papers as far as his birth registry is concerned. Also since his birth registry was more a breeding and not a performance registry approval was paramont. I did what I was telling the OP to do...get approval elsewhere. I did and in fact the inspector doing the approvals was the owner of Werbellin and someone that certainly knew what she was looking at. This is not as strange as it may seem as many times a WB stallion will not be accepted into his birth registry but will go to another WB registry and this has produced some confusing results to us NA people ( such as a hannovarian by blood, but Oldenburg by approval) that don't understand the inner workings of WB approvals.

The interesting fact is my boy had to get an approval score higher than what his birth registry was approving and even now, even if he went to Spruce Meadows and won the Masters (not likely thought) his birth registry will not take him.

He was in effect a grade stallion for the original papers are worthless. It is this reason that certainly 99.9% males should be gelded but it isn't because they have worthless or even lost, unproven or no papers but because they would never measure up in producing or they don't have the conformation/temperment that puts them notches above all others. Each potential stallion should be judged on its merits and background before the "chop them off" is warrented. 

It is irresponsible to have non descript studs breeding and it is just as irresponsible to say geld everything without looking closely as to why no papers are available.


----------



## NordicJuniper (Jun 9, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> I think you meant:
> 
> 
> 
> :]


I did thank you!


----------



## Gidji (Dec 19, 2008)

A very interesting topic this is. In my area, we are.....fussy. We want horses with papers, it opens more doors to us. If we have a registered horse, we can do breed shows.
If I had a horse that couldn't be registered, I would give him the snip. But I would train him up. He could do open classes.
But honestly, I track down papers. I'm a paper stalker. If there is the slightest possible chance of finding/getting papers, I will get them


----------

