# What does "sit deeper" mean to you?



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Your center of gravity is going to centered in your seatbones. Your seat will feel heavy as you are making sure your weight in concentrated back there.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

I relax my legs somewhat so they feel "longer" and imagine that I'm 'melting' my hip bones and upper thighs into the saddle. Maybe sitting a tad back more on my pockets (not a lot, really just being more conscious not to lean forward). Small of my back relaxed and shoulders back. 

I don't know if this is right at all. I'm reading Centered Riding and trying to learn more about this. It's fascinating.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

waresbear said:


> Your center of gravity is going to centered in your seatbones. Your seat will feel heavy as you are making sure your weight in concentrated back there.


 
Yes, but WHAT are you doing to achieve this?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Ladytrails said:


> I relax my legs somewhat so they feel "longer" and imagine that I'm 'melting' my hip bones and upper thighs into the saddle. Maybe sitting a tad back more on my pockets (not a lot, really just being more conscious not to lean forward). Small of my back relaxed and shoulders back.
> 
> I don't know if this is right at all. I'm reading Centered Riding and trying to learn more about this. It's fascinating.


 
It's interesting that you mentioned Centered Riding becasue I remember that Sally Swift mentions , in her talk of having the horse back up or transisiton down to a halt, that the rider will actually sit such that the seatbones come UP off the saddle a little , to create more space for the back to rise up into as the horse lifts its belly, and thus back.


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## SarahAnn (Oct 22, 2011)

I always thought it had to do with the pelvic area. When I "sit deeper" I kind relax and open up my pelvic area, sitting with my butt more "under" me then "behind" me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I could be doing any number of things, I could be asking for a half halt, I could be collecting the trot, I could be cuing for a canter. A deeper seat & other cues is part of my clutch.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> It's interesting that you mentioned Centered Riding becasue I remember that Sally Swift mentions , in her talk of having the horse back up or transisiton down to a halt, that the rider will actually sit such that the seatbones come UP off the saddle a little , to create more space for the back to rise up into as the horse lifts its belly, and thus back.


I haven't picked that up yet! To be honest, I've got the 2nd book and realized I need to start with the 1st...so it's on the Christmas list. 

What you describe makes sense as I think about the horse's movement during transitions to halt or back, but Lord knows I can't imagine what that would feel like, to create that space. It's 100% the opposite of what we are trained to do in Western riding stops - sitting down, leaning back, no daylight there!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

SarahAnn said:


> I always thought it had to do with the pelvic area. When I "sit deeper" I kind relax and open up my pelvic area, sitting with my butt more "under" me then "behind" me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Is that relaxing your muscles, or actually engaging them, in order to put your "butt" more under you? Isn't it wierd to really think in terms of nitty gritty actions, WHAT we do to achieve this?

Our pelvis cannot open or close. IT is basically incapable of movement in and of itself. We can loosen our thighs, or roll the pelvis forward, but it's the lower back or abdominal muscles that are actually acting. 

That's why I think it's odd when peole say to put one seatbone forward of the other. YOu can only do this by twisting the lower spine, around the vertical axix of your spine . You can weight one more than the other, by dropping that side of your pelvis, which causes you to raise the other side of the pelvis, since they are locked together. . And one can do any number of descrete combinations of these two movements of the pelvis, but one cannot move just one part of the pelvis without moving all of it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

waresbear said:


> I could be doing any number of things, I could be asking for a half halt, I could be collecting the trot, I could be cuing for a canter. A deeper seat & other cues is part of my clutch.


 
What is YOUR body doing?


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

I relax my legs, lengthen them, pull my body up straight if it isn't already, and sit my weight into the saddle- change my center of gravity, basically. To me, it means shifting where my weight is concentrated.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I would be making myself feel heavy, relaxing my muscles back onto my seat and pressing my legs into my stirrups and my heels farther down, making sure my shoulders are back and that I am in line with my horse's movements and asking them to drive from behind, making my hip bones move in complete harmony with the strides of the horse - Important to stay down, but not slouch in the saddle.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Depends on what I am sitting deeper for. If it's for a collected walk, I am giving calf pressure, combined with bit pressure to where I want him. Rest of my body still lines up on 3 points (I hope or I get yelled at!).


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hmm, this is exactly why I would never make a good instructor. I know how it feels and I know how to get it...but I have no friggin clue how to put it into words.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

smrobs - I took forever to get over that with my lesson girls. After awhile I just had to say kinda what I wanted, and when they did it right my go-to phrase was "You see how that feels?"


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

When I started riding, I rode my stirrups, not my horse. That was why my legs and back hurt after riding - because I was WORKING at riding. It didn't help any that I was a beginner rider on a spooky mare riding an English jump saddle - and no instruction. What IDIOT would do that?   

Also, my hips and legs were very stiff. Not uncommon for a 50 year old male, but it was horrible trying to get down in the saddle. My tense legs squeezing raised me above the saddle. I touched the saddle, but my weight was being carried by my stiff legs pushing the stirrups.

Getting my heels under my hip would have helped, but my legs were too stiff for that.

Please do not laugh at this photo. I know it is awful, but it pretty well defines what 'deep seat' is *NOT*!:










My legs were lower at this point, but the picture screams "STIFF!!!!" And notice how much better my youngest daughter was doing, although she only rode sometimes...

I had to switch saddle types and get lessons on calmer horses to learn to relax in the saddle. 

I needed to roll onto my pockets, as the phrase goes. I was rolled too far forward, and curving my lower back. That put me both off-balance and with a stiff body to match my stiff legs. By leaning way back - that is what it felt like to me - and getting on my seat pockets (lower edge of my jeans pockets), I unlocked my back. An inverted back is as bad with the rider as it is with the horse.

The first lesson I took, the instructor had me do tight turns on the horse, leaning forward in my normal position, then 'leaning back' in mid-turn. I could feel the horse loosen up and start pushing with his hind end, making the turn more balanced.

I had already started lengthening the stirrups. Since I worried about losing my stirrups, I move my feet forward to the 'home' position. 'Put weight in your heels' is a counter-productive phrase for me. When I try that, I put tension all thru my leg and thus end up with MORE weight on my thighs, and less in my seat and heel. I usually also start gripping with my knee. For me, "Toes Up!" works better. My goal was to have the stirrup there, but barely feel it most of the time.

I also needed to spread my knees. I didn't realize I was gouging the horse and using my knees as a fulcrum, but I was. It takes me a mental effort every time I get on a horse to spread my knees apart. That will lower my leg some, but mostly it prevents me from squeezing. Squeezing with the legs is the opposite of sitting deep.

A long, relaxed leg pulling your weight down into the saddle is part of sitting deep, IMHO.

Not sure if any of this helps. I *HATE* the book 'Centered Riding' - lots love it, but I hate it with a passion.

Deep in the saddle means getting your center of gravity as low as possible. That comes with long legs (or folded properly, if you are good enough). They need to be relaxed, and so do the hips and lower back. You need to be straight in the saddle, and relaxed. If you are riding deep, your saddle is working, and your butt is working, and the rest of you is relaxed.

Needs work, but better - and this is from my first ever try at cantering, and the horse's too. We were BOTH feeling VERY awkward and tense, but the improvement from the first photo is obvious. I don't have any more current pictures:










I'll offer this one of my daughter-in-law on our newest member of the herd, a 13 hand mustang. While she has flaws, notice how relaxed she looks compared to my first photo. Deep and relaxed are almost synonyms, I think. Smiling helps, too.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I was always told to sit up straight & ride on your pockets.


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## With Grace (Oct 20, 2011)

Long relaxed legs and thighs is what I tell myself when sitting deeper. In the canter this is what I tell myself over and over, otherwise I'll try to grip with my thighs and rise out of my seat.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Instead of saying sit deeper we should be saying...employ a seat that exercises an increased driving force .

So how ?

If we assume we have a decent saddle that will not negate any effort we make and accept that the hips are able to tilt forward and backward then we make a conclusion that there are in fact two types of seat.

The "going along" seat...and the "influential" seat..

In a normal seat the upper body rests upon the two seat bones. We can almost think of these bones like the sled runners and can follow the horse. The load can be shifted to the front or back by the tilting of the hips and this ability to shift give the rider the ability to "go along" with the horses motion. This is not a "deep seat" but the ability to shift within the saddle is a prerequisite to the ability to exercise greater control and driving force.

To gain this increased control we must look at the the small of the back that allows the rider to go along with the horse and allow the upper body to get longer and heavier the moment the the pelvis is pushed forward and the buttocks, following this movement can remain in the saddle. This swing if the rider is properly positioned in the deepest point of the saddle will absorb the the shocks and movement of the gait and takes them away from the shoulder, knee and elbows so that the seat remains in the saddle.

As the rider is able to maintain this position they will shift from "going along" to influencing each step the horse takes and at that point, it truly become a deep seat that is fully exercising not just an increased drive, but a controlling drive.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

When I hear sit deeper, it makes me think "stop riding", or "push her butt down with mine" (barrel pockets). So basically, if I just relax-no leg cues, no tense-ness or anything at all with heels down and forward, I'll get that slide stop I want from Lucky; otherwise she'll just slow down and get there about 3 arenas later. If I push her butt down with mine (figuratively) around that barrel, I'll get a quick pocket on her hind as opposed to if I were to try and get her around it while in a half-point of sorts. She'd drop her shoulder and take ages to to get around it compared to if I sit deep around it..it's happened before when I was learning her.
But generally, stopping, transitions, and spins/tight turns are the only time I think of the "deeper seat". My seat is generally very good, and secure-but I don't see it as having a deep seat until I'm doing certain things. Aside from those things, it's just a good/secure seat that I have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I hate the phrase "deep seat" It constantly gets thrown around, and I havent got a clue what they are talking about. I come to realize many of the people throwing around dont either. I think people think they are just supposed to say it. I sit in the saddle, lean back or lean forward, change the amount of weight I have in the stirrups depending on terrain, turns, speed and what not. So I dont get it and have pretty much ceased to worry about it.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

my trainer always say 'sink, stretch' when he wants you to sit deeper. sink down in your leg/seat, and stretch your upper body [aka dont slouch down when you sink] it helps me a lot in my down transition when i feel the need to lean forward into them !


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## VT Trail Trotters (Jul 21, 2011)

waresbear said:


> Your center of gravity is going to centered in your seatbones. Your seat will feel heavy as you are making sure your weight in concentrated back there.


Same question of what i meant and thank you waresbear!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I didn't read all the posts...but what it means to me is turning my thighs inward to achieve a more U-shaped form with my legs to allow more of me to sink into the saddle. Easier to do without stirrups and at the walk and canter. We're still working on the trot. I still end up on top of the saddle instead of in it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

pretty remarkable differences in interpretation. Some rock the pelvis back (I think of it as back but some think of it as forward. I mean the top of the pelvis is rocked back and the pubic bone forward) and say "sit on my pockets" or push the horse down with my butt.
I learned more to tight the front of my body, bring my shoulders back and down over my hip tops , bear outward with my core muslces as if coughing , and make my legs feel heavier. the result is that I almost open my body in the middle and make it drape heavier on each side, but my seatbones carry actaully slightly less direct weight becaseu more of it is going down the legs and the increased muscle tone of the thigh and ribcage muscles actaully adds more padding between my bony seat bones and the saddle.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I literally picture myself sitting on the beach and sinking deeper and deeper into the sand, feeling all of my body mass in my seat, down my legs, and oozing out of my toes.

How I do this while riding, I relax my thighs and stretch my legs down (but not right) and let my body push downward. Sometimes I use my abdominals to prevent from lifting up (like during the sitting trot)

But I'm still learning so


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

To sit deeper I buy a saddle with a very high cantle and big knee rolls!!!



There is a correct seat in dressage where the legs fall gently on either side of the horse and only the weight required to hold the toes up is in the stirrups. The rider is centered over her center of balance in the saddle with the core engaged to hold her body erect. Body aids come from the core and the back.. to resist forward motion the muscles in the core are engaged, the abs contract and the back muscles pull the shoulder blades to the center of the back and down... to drive forward the core is engaged, the back muscles contract to stabilize the rider and the abs contract to pull the pelvis forward. In any of these motions the "movement" of the rider is nearly invisible in a correct seat.


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## cfralic (Jan 17, 2011)

I just relax my hips and all my seat muscles. It kind of goes with stepping down into the stirrup.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> To sit deeper I buy a saddle with a very high cantle and big knee rolls!!!
> 
> 
> 
> There is a correct seat in dressage where the legs fall gently on either side of the horse and only the weight required to hold the toes up is in the stirrups. The rider is centered over her center of balance in the saddle with the core engaged to hold her body erect. Body aids come from the core and the back.. to resist forward motion the muscles in the core are engaged, the abs contract and the back muscles pull the shoulder blades to the center of the back and down... to drive forward the core is engaged, the back muscles contract to stabilize the rider and the abs contract to pull the pelvis forward. In any of these motions the "movement" of the rider is nearly invisible in a correct seat.



And this is why my core muscles are super strength from riding alone ;D

I cheated. I got a 16" saddle that positioned me just right, I could have my legs against the side of my old horse, use my core, open my hips and really sit and feel the motion.


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## stargirl (Dec 11, 2011)

when someone tells me to sit deeper i usually think let your bum sink into the saddle. think about pushing your bum into the saddle. im not sure if this is right, but this is what i ahve been told!!
hope it helps!!!


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I think a deep seat has so much more involved than the seat. I don't particularly like the term "deep seat" as it implies sitting on your pockets. To me "riding deep" starts at the top of your head all the way to your toes. Finding your perfect center of gravity & motion while engaging your core and absorbing the shock of a horses's movement through your mid section to the point that you can influence the speed and cadence of your horse. That's my take on it from a western rider's point of view.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Great stuff , people. Obviously, it has a lot to do with imagination. You have to kind of "imagine" moving your weight down, or think of "opening the body and dripping down the sides of the horse". Lots of mental imagery and instintual feel involved. But hard to get from just the words, "deepen your seat".


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't think it is really mental imagery. It isn't like being told (per Centered Riding) to imagine your arms are fire-hoses, ending at the horse's mouth.

Getting deeper is the opposite of getting higher. You get higher by balancing more on the stirrups than the seat, by bracing your legs, and by bringing the inverted V of your legs closer together, or by pivoting on your knees. You get higher by tensing your body, so your back can't absorb the thrust of the horse's motion.

To get deeper is just to reverse those faults.

From my unimaginative mind, the problem is not with the term, but with instructors who use it without knowing HOW to accomplish it or why it helps. It is like being told "toes forward", by an instructor who doesn't understand either how that can help or how it might hurt, or even what the student must do to follow the instruction.

That is why a thread like this is valuable. It makes people think about a commonly used bit of advice, and how to actually accomplish it and what happens if you do.

As another example, I remember reading to "Straighten your back!" That can be good advice, unless the person straightens it by making it stiff and rigid. Locking your lower back is worse than slouching for a beginning rider. And please do not ask me how I know that...


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

I also don't like the term, and in fact, I don't hear it much any more.

I believe it has to do with the tension of the upper body, which will "lift" you: you're tense, to your instructor it looks like you're lifting yourself out of the saddle, so she calls out to you to "sit deeper"-- which of course you can't unless you release all your tension; which is not always possible. "I WILL relax, I REAL relax!" Ha, it never works for me!

Some things you can force, some you can't. I remember telling my friend, when he was bouncing high at the canter, "Sit DOWN" and being a man, he surely put some muscle into pounding down into my poor horse's back and she hollowed out and ran even faster. 

I do not want a "deep" seat, I want an independent seat. As Spyder remarked, to follow or to influence; not to burden.

Interesting topic, and I'm glad you brought it up!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

A deep seat is the polar opposite of riding in a "fetal position."
I couldn't find a deep seat until I got to ride for numerous hours at a time. You'd have to be a WWC wrestler to be able to push yourself out of the saddle or curl your knees up and MAINTAIN this for 4 hours straight. I always suggest riding a walk for at least one hour without stirrups and/or go for a really long trail ride to experience a deep seat. Once you do, you will naturally sit on your seat bones, naturally line up your should-hip-heel and stop hanging on your horse's mouth--NOT that anybody here would do THAT!! lol


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm with the "it's a feeling"! I learned to ride bareback, didn't have anyone to help me lift the saddle! So for me it's a relaxed, yet upright, balanced posture, that allows my body to move with the gaits, not in opposition to, or body supportive of. Inner thigh muscles are used only for maintaining the seat balance and legs are relaxed, "dangling" but under control for stubble cues.
Like if you were extreme riding for hours on a trail bareback, you would not be able to slouch forward and maintain balance, you can't lean back or else you'd slip off, it's all in your tummy and inner thighs, with your "core" relaxed and centered over the horses spine keeping you on. You can't use your legs and knees unless you are silly and wrap them around their belly, which mine are far too short for!

I do yoga to keep flexible and ride bareback at all gaits at least once a week to "keep my seat". LOL


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Corporal said:


> A deep seat is the polar opposite of riding in a "fetal position."
> I couldn't find a deep seat until I got to ride for numerous hours at a time. You'd have to be a WWC wrestler to be able to push yourself out of the saddle or curl your knees up and MAINTAIN this for 4 hours straight. I always suggest riding a walk for at least one hour without stirrups and/or go for a really long trail ride to experience a deep seat. Once you do, you will naturally sit on your seat bones, naturally line up your should-hip-heel and stop hanging on your horse's mouth--NOT that anybody here would do THAT!! lol


 
I am glad to hear you say this because I primarily trail ride and often for a coupld of hourse of nonstop walking. I do find that I get pretty "deep" by the end of the first hour.

My instructor used to call the feotal position the "fatal" position.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

FlyGap said:


> I'm with the "it's a feeling"! I learned to ride bareback, didn't have anyone to help me lift the saddle! So for me it's a relaxed, yet upright, balanced posture, that allows my body to move with the gaits, not in opposition to, or body supportive of. Inner thigh muscles are used only for maintaining the seat balance and legs are relaxed, "dangling" but under control for stubble cues.
> Like if you were extreme riding for hours on a trail bareback, you would not be able to slouch forward and maintain balance, you can't lean back or else you'd slip off, it's all in your tummy and inner thighs, with your "core" relaxed and centered over the horses spine keeping you on. You can't use your legs and knees unless you are silly and wrap them around their belly, which mine are far too short for!
> 
> I do yoga to keep flexible and ride bareback at all gaits at least once a week to "keep my seat". LOL


 
Here is an example of the most beautiful bareback seat I have ever seen


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I didn't read all of the posts, so forgive me if this is repetitive... 

For me, sitting deep is about every part of the body, and feeling it is huge. 

It's impossible to sit deep without relaxing entirely. Even the muscles in the face need to relax. I love the description of "soft eyes" vs. "hard eyes," although I honestly don't know how to put it into different words. I've had non-horsey people tell me that when I talk about soft eyes it's similar to relaxing and looking ahead down the road when driving, rather than focusing on the area immediately ahead of the bumper, but there's definitely more to it than just the area of visual focus. When I consciously add relaxing all of my muscles, from my face down to my toes, to the rest of the "sit deep" feeling, sitting trot really begins to click. 

Rather than "sit straight," with all the instant potential for tension that that command brings up, I like to think of sitting evenly, assuming that you aren't explicitly applying aids - no more weight to the front than to the back, and no more weight to the left than to the right. If that weight distribution is right, there's no leaning, no tipping, and no tension. Sometimes (indeed, most of the time), it takes an instructor or other knowledgable person to help the rider to find this point; so many of us have poor alignment or weight distribution just walking around or sitting at our desks. I struggle with it as well. Of course, weight is a powerful and valuable aid when applied as such; having centered, even weight distribution when "in neutral" makes an aid-shift that much more meaningful when it is given.

When I "sit deeper," I also think about my core - I focus on that centermost space in my belly, imagining that space getting heavier and more stable. When the 4-H kids ask me about it, I tell them to "Ride like a Weeble" - unfortunately, it seems like Weeble-toys aren't as popular as they were when I was a little kid. :lol: Imagine all of your weight dropping down, melting into the tack, meeting your horse's center of gravity. 

Recently I've stumbled upon the idea of "*kneeling in* the saddle" rather than "*sitting on* the saddle" - that image and idea really turned on a lightbulb for me, and adds to that whole picture of overall depth, stability, and balance. 

Every now and again, I'm just sitting at my desk and I notice that I've got a very similar feeling to that of "sitting deep" in the saddle; I'm utterly relaxed, but if, say, my roommate were to come along and shove hard on my shoulder there would be no way that she would be able to push me over out of my chair. It's that combination of alert relaxation and solid, centered, deep-focused weight that goes into "sitting deep" for me, although I have no doubt that as I continue to learn as a rider my understanding of the concept will change and improve.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Tiny, that vid is awesome!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is the mental picture that comes to my mind:










Of course, that might explain my tension...


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Scoutrider said:


> When the 4-H kids ask me about it, I tell them to "Ride like a Weeble" - unfortunately, it seems like Weeble-toys aren't as popular as they were when I was a little kid. :lol:


:rofl: Me too. The normal response now is "a what? or huh?" One of these days I'll find one at a yard sale to explain with wink:


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## Zuzana (Dec 15, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> Ok, we often hear people say to "sit deeper" in the saddle. Or "have a deep seat" or "deepen your seat. This is a term very open to subjective interpretation, but to achieve it , one must do actual , physical movements with their body. So, let's describe what it means to you. Think , imagine yourself doing this, and really detail what is happening to your body .


Love this question! 

So to me, sitting deep means being truly connected to the horse, riding in harmony - not only compensating for the horse's movement, but having the option to guide the horse with my seat only.

Let me explain the physical skills to do this as I understand them 

Starting with the pelvis: the seatbones are pointing straight down - the pelvis is neither tipped forward or back - the lower back is fairly flat.
The seatbones are "glued" to the saddle - only moving as much as the horse's back moves them - no bounce or slide at all. 

Upper body: needs to be in neutral spine - the curves of the spine are balanced and in the biologically most effective posture. There is a feeling of shortness in the upper body - without changing the proper posture - but the idea is to emulate a martial arts pose - ribcage pulling down towards the pelvis - once again, without collapsing anywhere!

The core needs to be engaged for this - the easiest way to explain the use of these core muscles is this: arrange yourself in this optimal upper body alignment. Either on the horse, or sitting in the chair - get someone to begin pushing on you - try sideways and front/back - while you resist them. You can put your hands on your midsection - to feel the muscles engage. Do this slowly and mindfully, then learn how to re-create the feeling while riding. After all - the challenge of riding well lies very much in "maintaining the proper position while resisting the challenges of the horse's movement".

I would add proper diaphramatic breathing and general calmness to this as well. 

Thighs on the saddle - a leg that helps stabilize the rider and bears it's part of the weight. 

Of course there is more to add to this, and way more tools for riders to get it, but this kind of sums it up for me

Zuzana


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I particularly like your part about the upper body feeling "shorter" and the ribcage pulling down around the pelvis. This is something not taught much, but when I started doing this, it made me feel so much more stable. Too much empasis on "grow tall" makes the rider crimp up with the shoulders , and push too hard down.


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