# Back...sway? Lack of muscles?



## gogirl46 (Oct 18, 2009)

Its either swayed or the horse has high whithers (in my own opinion). But feel free to second guess me, I stink at conformation.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

well she wanted me to ask because she doesn't know. She has had problems with saddles sitting on the withers (Full Quarter Horse Bars...same size that she is using now)
He's a Paint (I think...can paints really be solid??) so normally they are bred to be downhill, right?


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## heyycutter (Sep 26, 2009)

i worry alot that my 13 y/o quarterhorse has a swayed back. sometimes it looks fine, sometimes swayed, sometimes looks like its lacking muscle. a educated horse person told me about some excersise things you can do to stretch back muscles to bring it up. she said you can press both sides of his bum, like on each side of his tail, and use your knuckles to like need it, and if you find the right spot, he will raise his back and it helps strengthen their muscles. ive done it to my QH and he raises his back, and it seems to help. the hard part is finding the spot, but if you try several spots im sure youd find it


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

how interesting! 
She does belly lifts with him as often as she can, and she's doing to start working on alot of transitions with him to get him to use his back more. The ground is too slippery to do any hill work, and she does have him go over jumps when the arena footing is safe


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## heyycutter (Sep 26, 2009)

ive also heard transitions help lots, walk-trot, trot-walk, walk-canter, stuff like that. trottings wonderful too to help build muscle


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

looks like the beginnings of a swayback with no muscle AND high withers. Haha. Seriously I think it's a combo of all three.

How old is he? by the texture of his coat I wouldn't expect him to be classified as a senior yet. But IDK


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

He's 11.
Eventerdrew could you point out where you are seeing the point of sway back so I can let her know?


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

He does have high withers but he also has a weak back that is dropping. 

He has dropped right behind the withers, which will make it hard for her to keep a proper saddle fit, unless she gets a relief pad.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

SavvyHearts said:


> how interesting!
> She does belly lifts with him as often as she can, and she's doing to start working on alot of transitions with him to get him to use his back more. The ground is too slippery to do any hill work, and she does have him go over jumps when the arena footing is safe


The horse lacks tone and is out of shape but there is nothing else wrong. Horses that have "camel" withers tend to make the back appear swayed but this is not a true sway.

Horses built like this will have difficulty getting the right fit for a saddle ( and the reason I will never purchase one with this conformation). Belly lifts and even transitions will be useless unless there is a plan behind it and are done correctly. The horse needs to be ridden forward with a lower head carriage to do any good.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

He is western pleasure trained and likes him to carry his head low. She mainly trail rides with him.

Spyder what do you mean "useless unless there is a plan behind it"? Could you give an example?
What does ridden forward mean?
More or less long and low?


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

Here's another pic from today...the one that she thought looked swayed


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## heyycutter (Sep 26, 2009)

i dont think it looks that bad really


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

SavvyHearts said:


> He is western pleasure trained and likes him to carry his head low. She mainly trail rides with him.
> 
> Spyder what do you mean "useless unless there is a plan behind it"? Could you give an example?
> What does ridden forward mean?
> More or less long and low?


If the horse is ridden forward ( something better than the slow western pleasure jogs) the horse will use its hind legs more. This will work the back muscles also, so forward with a lower (not to the ground) head carriage will tone up and strengthen the back.

A plan is when you do something with an expected result based on a plan of action. Just aimlessly wandering around thinking I did 1 hour of aimless wanderings will be enough is not a plan. So many minutes of strong forward with rests every so often with circles and bends with transitions done at times that asks the horse questions (is he ready, balanced or obedient) and intentional turns working the whole horse is a plan...aimless wanderings is not. This is not to say your friend does but some people have some strange ideas on what will work.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

To be perfectly honest, I don't see a sway back whatsoever but I DO see a roach back which is giving the appearance of a "dip". The dip behind his withers is relatively normal, but because his back has an outward curve so early, it looks more extreme.

For example, in this pic you can see virtually the same type dip, but the back slopes back up to the point of the hip. The horse you posted roaches outwards instead of sloping back up in an inward curve or straightish line.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

> If the horse is ridden forward ( something better than the slow western pleasure jogs) the horse will use its hind legs more. This will work the back muscles also, so forward with a lower (not to the ground) head carriage will tone up and strengthen the back.


So forward meaning faster in an easier term?



> A plan is when you do something with an expected result based on a plan of action. Just aimlessly wandering around thinking I did 1 hour of aimless wanderings will be enough is not a plan. So many minutes of strong forward with rests every so often with circles and bends with transitions done at times that asks the horse questions (is he ready, balanced or obedient) and intentional turns working the whole horse is a plan...aimless wanderings is not. This is not to say your friend does but some people have some strange ideas on what will work.


She normally has patterns planned out for the day, figure 8s with a jump in the middle. She'll do those at w/t/c, 4 Leaf Clovers, circles, weaves, and so on and so forth. She does try to have a plan every time she rides, but there are times when she does just wonder around so the arena isn't always just work.




> To be perfectly honest, I don't see a sway back whatsoever but I DO see a roach back which is giving the appearance of a "dip". The dip behind his withers is relatively normal, but because his back has an outward curve so early, it looks more extreme.


What defines a "roach" back? I thought a roach back was like this:


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Yeah, that's a much more defined case of roach back. I could be wrong, that's just what I see - if you look at the mid point of his back to the top of his hind quarters, it's got a very mild upwards curve. It's not severe by any means, I just think it's making the dip behind the withers much more pronounced.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

I think I see what you mean but not 100%. Thanks!


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## gogirl46 (Oct 18, 2009)

Savvy, yes, Paints can be solid. They are generally used more for breeding and aren't worth as much as their coloured counterparts.

You can strengthen a horse's back but it only does so much. My mount Terminator has high whithers and now that I look back at the pictures, her back has raised since the beginning of the summer, yet her whithers are still high. I suggest riding him in a lollipop pad. It will squish over the whithers but not so much on the back and it will make your saddle more even so you're balanced but lso pad your saddle for a better fit to the horse's back. I use that on both of my horses.

For some reason, I seem to attract horses with high whithers...


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I think Spyder is right. with another look at the picture I changed my mind about him having a swayback. I think it just appears that way because of his lack of muscle and high withers.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

The owner of the horse rides in the Parelli theraflex pad. She has it shimmed in that area and she's going to fool around a bit with shimming again. I use the theraflex pad also and definitely love it, it has done wonders for my mare who had some back problems a while back


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> The horse lacks tone and is out of shape but there is nothing else wrong. Horses that have "camel" withers tend to make the back appear swayed but this is not a true sway.
> 
> Horses built like this will have difficulty getting the right fit for a saddle ( and the reason I will never purchase one with this conformation). Belly lifts and even transitions will be useless unless there is a plan behind it and are done correctly. The horse needs to be ridden forward with a lower head carriage to do any good.


Very informative Spyder! I wonder if Nelson is shaped like this? He definately has lack of muscle on this topline and everytime I ride, we spend the hour doing just as you say - long and low, impulsion, transitions - I am working very hard to get his back shaped up.

I see I have alot of work ahead of me.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

From my friend:
Spyder I know you mentioned this first and you seem to know what your talking about, so I'll ask you this. You said that back looks swayed simply from "camel" withers...and I can see that if I do edit out just a bit of the withers on Paint his back looks good other than needs muscles. But is this "camel" withers something that I'm going to have to be careful of in the sense that, will it cause him problems later on? Is there some things I just should not do with him (i.e. jumping or barrels or something like that), or keep it limited?


She also wanted me to post a video of him in his gaits...just normal riding, she was filming this video to show someone something, so it's nothing special, but she did to w/t/c. Just to show Spyder and everyone how he normally carries himself.




(this video is not working on my end so I don't know if it is the link she wanted...for me it says "an error occured, please try again later"


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

SavvyHearts said:


> From my friend:
> Spyder I know you mentioned this first and you seem to know what your talking about, so I'll ask you this. You said that back looks swayed simply from "camel" withers...and I can see that if I do edit out just a bit of the withers on Paint his back looks good other than needs muscles. But is this "camel" withers something that I'm going to have to be careful of in the sense that, will it cause him problems later on? Is there some things I just should not do with him (i.e. jumping or barrels or something like that), or keep it limited?
> 
> 
> ...


First the term "camel" withers is my term and I assign that term to horses that have an overgrown withers so that the outline from the poll to neck to back is disrupted by the "hump' This is not a conformation fault but CAN play a role in how the horse uses itself. In some sever cases where the withers go up then straight down it tends to cut the front of the horse from the rear and the signals from the active hind leg getv "stopped" at this point and there is no connectivity between the front and back. The steeper the drop of the withers from the withers to the back the worse the problem CAN be. It will even if steep not cause any medical or difficulty other than potential training problems.

From the video ( it is far away) I see a horse that may be relaxed in the walk but not in the trot or canter. From that ride I would say the rider missed so many opportunities to help the horse. This does not mean she is a bad rider...just not informed. She is a typical rider that does a bit of walk then trot then canter.

What opportunity she missed may be the result of not understanding what will help her horse. Those lovely lovely pylons just sitting there begging to be used but were not.

Think of a gymnist and the multiple bends and changes of balance they must do. They are not fat nor skinny but certainly toned and supple. They use balance changes to help them. This is what your friend must do. If that were my horse I would have turned him into a pretzel going around and through those pylons at a trot with reasonable speed (not racing or dragging feet) each bend asks the horse to USE itself and muscular structure, not just the back but everything. This not only tones the horse but supples him so that more difficult things can be asked with "yes, sir I can sure do that" type of answer from the horse.

Get you friend to just throw the pylons anywhere on the arena and make that horse use itself. Some contact is needed but not the kind to bring the head up, more to help the horse initially with where you are going.


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## SuperStarsSugar (Sep 9, 2009)

Looks mostly like high withers to me, but possibly his back has dropped a little.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

What are pylons? Cones?

She was showing someone something and not using her reins. She was just putting him through his gaits. Nothing special. She tries to do alot of bending when she rides. I guess this was not a good video to show, but it just showed his natural gates without her asking him to do anything differently.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

SavvyHearts said:


> What are pylons? Cones?


 
Yes just different name.

You see I never just put a horse through its gaits. That comes automatically when you ride. What I do is put a horse through its training focusing on at least doing as well as I did the ride before and hopefully better. This is where I seperate the rider/trainer from just a rider. A trainer that rides their horse will always be looking to improve the horse and once the horse has mastered the obedience factor in DOING a gait then improving that gait becomes a lifelong endeavour.

Everytime you get on your horse you have the option of being just a passenger/rider or a rider/trainer. This does not require high level professional training (unless you are showing in upper level competitions). It simply requires that you have some basic knowledge of the way a horse moves and using common sense to get the best from that horse on any given day. It is a trainer that uses what is available to themselves to get what is required in a way that maintains a certain safety level while making that horse better in itself.

This does not mean that every ride is intense for a nice trail ride or down time is something that is also part of the equasion.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

> Yes just different name.


Haha ok, thanks. You really confused me there for a minute.

Yeah as I said she had a purpose for this video as she was riding without touching the reins and wasn't asking for anything, just maintaining gait...and there is nothing wrong to just ask the horse to keep up this gate while going straight or following the rail.
I know for a fact that she does do alot of turning and bending, and she's also been working more on side-ways as she wants to be able to get a very fast sideways.

But thanks Spyder, I'll relay everything you said to her (don't think she is awake yet). 
The vet said that she had to get about 150ish pounds off her horse before winter (the picture you saw is him looking alot better than before) so she's been focusing on alot of stuff like that to get him sweating up a bit, while still keeping it fun. She did some figure eights at the canter with a jump in the middle and was able to get one lead change, and she also was working on circles to get him bending the right way.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

In all honesty, his back looks almost exactly like my QH Denny's. I think it may be lack of proper muscle. I am sorry if you already posted the answer to this but I just kinda skimmed the PP. Does he carry his head high? If so, then that may be the problem. Plus he is kinda fat  LOL.

But his back looks so much like Denny's and I know his is from having his head up all the time.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

He normally carries his head down or even to his withers for the most part unless something is bothering him, and his neck comes up. Yes he is fat, and she knows that and is working him to get weight off of him. The before and after shot is pretty amazing for just a week's work. 
He's probably lost a good 50-100 lbs (she's just weight taping him, and knows that's not accurate, but it will show if the horse has lost any)...the first day he taped at 1175 and now he tapes at 1037.

And he's lost a huge amount off his sides, so the belly will hopefully be next 
She's keeping track of the weight and using pictures to see if he's lost any on his belly or sides.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Just remember that most Parelli horses are not ridden that much or worked that hard.


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

Spyder said:


> Just remember that most Parelli horses are not ridden that much or worked that hard.


I do take offense to that Spyder, as I myself am a Parelli student and I'm sure my friend would take offense to that also. That just proves that you do know little to nothing about Parelli. We do work our horse's hard, but just in general, an easy keeper will be an easy keeper, and with the summer that we've had it's impossible to do things safely in the arena.
No if working hard means working them so hard that they feel like passing out, then no I'm proud to say we do not do that, but we do give them a good work out when weather permits.
Not sure about my friend but I do not have the pleasure of having an indoor arena where I board my horses. First off I can't afford board if there's an indoor and there is no place close (within a 45 minute drive) of me (that I know of) with an indoor. So I did not ride hardly at all this summer because of the rain, so yes my horse's are pleasantly plump and they are getting a work out also to loose some weight. 

Please do not turn this into an anti-Parelli thread, my friend was asking for conformational help and that's it


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

SavvyHearts, Spyder gave an opinion in a straight forward way and was not rude in any way. If you found it to be offensive or incorrect, there is a better way of expressing it rather then to go off in a rant.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

IMO parelli horses arent worked correctly really, at least not in saddle. And Spyder was just giving an opinion... does not mean she doesnt know about parelli.....


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

gogirl46 said:


> Savvy, yes, Paints can be solid. They are generally used more for breeding and aren't worth as much as their coloured counterparts.


Solids paints are merely called brood stock. It does not mean they are used more for breeding.


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Well, Sonny/Savvy, I think that everyone has given you the same advice that was given the first time you posted this question.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/topline-critique-17313/


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## SavvyHearts (Sep 29, 2009)

Joshie said:


> Well, Sonny/Savvy, I think that everyone has given you the same advice that was given the first time you posted this question.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/topline-critique-17313/


If you are trying to imply that I am the poster of the other post you are wrong. That is my friend's username that she uses for her email and so on, but I am in no way her...she simply asked me a question and I told her I did not know and asked if she wanted me to post it on a forum that I belong to. Don't believe me if you don't wish it, but it's the honest truth


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

That should clear up any questions about identity so let's move on.


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