# A little devastated and needing answers



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

So I don't even know where to begin. I guess I'll start with a back story, this will be long I apologize. It means so much to me and I'm a bit heartbroken. 

So- 
Trouble was at my mothers, where I was living, since last August. I had some major disagreements over the way they handled my horse, and I made sure to set strict rules on feeding and handling. I was always there to watch from the shadows and raise a fuss when something popped up I didn't like. 

Then I finally found a full time job. I've been finished school for almost a year now, and was stuck in a rut so a job was a great thing for me. I could finally afford my own vet, farrier and feed bills. Upon getting this job, I had to move two hours away from my horse, to my fathers farm. I worked for a month, without seeing my horse, before I was able to take him home. What kickstarted this was when I found out they were sneakily feeding him massive amounts of sweet feed, something I made very very clear I did NOT want being fed to my horse.  

My mother is one of those people who are " my way or the highway" or "if I think it's right that's the only right way". So I got him out of there asap. 

He's been home almost three weeks. I have an utterly, completely different animal. It really hit me yesterday. 

The first thing I noticed is that he was very nervous when he came home. Okay. He just got home, I'll give him some time to settle in, it's just nerves. 

Then I noticed he was extremely head shy and did not want to be caught. 

I know this horse. I raised this horse. I trained this animal and I know him inside and out. 

He has almost no life in him. More than once I've walked into his stall with his grain and he's standing in the corner, with his head hanging low, hay untouched. I shake his bucket and he doesn't even look up. He'll slowly wander over and pick around in his grain. I gave him a tube of regenereq plus a few days after he got home to get him eating and it worked-kind of. He still has days that I walk in and he's mopey. 

Yesterday was my breaking point. I did some groundwork with him and he's very high headed, eyes rolled back, terrified. Instead of backing away from me he will wheel away in a panic. We did work for an hour and I put him out on a good note when he was calm and responding well. 

He always looks terribly worried. When the barn door opens he will start and nearly fall down. He doesn't want to look at me, will stand facing me but pull his head around to face behind him. He does NOT want me touching his face. Haltering him has turned into a small battle- when before I would hold the halter out and he would put his own head in it. I spent enough time that he is almost 100% back to haltering normally. 

Then yesterday I was cleaning his stall. He was standing in the corner watching when I grabbed the long handled broom. He went completely insane. He jumped, full tilt into the solid wall. He was scrambling to get away, eyes rolled all the way back, making squealing noises of fear, breathing hard, and eventually ended up with his head stuck in the corner, his bum toward me all tucked in, just shaking. I have NEVER seen a horse react this way in my entire life. 

I touched his rump with the handle lightly and he climbed up the wall. He will kick at the handle when I touch his legs with it. If I put it anywhere near his head he will stand up and hit his head on the ceiling.

I cried. I am so incredibly heartbroken that my sweet boy is experiencing such intense pure fear. I have no idea what they did to my horse. I have hours and hours of re training to do. I was ready to put him into full time saddle work when I left him, and now we have to start all over. I'm also afraid he's sick. He's so lifeless sometimes. I don't know what to do or where to start. 

Would it be worth calling the vet? What would I say? "I don't see any glaring symptoms of anything but I know something is wrong?" He's very active in the pasture. He is a bit skinny but he grazes with zero issues and interacts with the herd fine. He bucks and runs in the pasture. I just don't know what to do now. Everything I worked for for three years has been undone.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Wow! It sounds as though he has been traumatized. If he is grazing fine, running and bucking with the herd and acting normal out there, it doesn't sound like he is sick, although it wouldn't hurt to give him a once over by the vet. 

I would just let him get used to things and let him decompress. It sounds like he needs a break. You can't undo what has been done, if anything. You can only go from where you are at. Just allow him to realize that he's fine now and just act like you always have with him.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I would get the vet out. From what I know of Trouble he's a (very) easy keeper. You say he's thin after getting massive amounts of sweet feed, plus his behavior is erratic and inconsistent. I don't know how much "massive" amounts are but I'm thinking it's to blame for most of this. Plus no sweet feed/hay based diet to "massive amounts" then back in just a few months is another thing all together.

I would have him checked out as a starting point. I agree with just letting him decompress though. I know he's your baby and it must be hard but try to treat him neutrally as you would a new horse and just let him be. Then start from scratch, not in a "need to redo everything" way but just a tune up. I think once he's back in the right place he will pick right back up where he left off. He knows you and trusts you he just needs to remember that right now.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Sounds like EPM...


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Honestly, why do they even make sweet feed anymore? You can't tell me the makers of this stuff do not know that it's not good for them.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

The most obvious possibility to me would be that Trouble developed ulcers from the move. A horse getting lots of sweet feed might be on the edge of getting ulcers already, with an acidic gut, then a move that causes stress or not eating enough for a few hours or days can create the very acidic environment and consequent erosion that causes the ulcers.

To me the clues would be poor appetite and a change in behavior, along with seeming anxious and upset about working. I've talked to humans with ulcers, and it can be a very sharp or burning pain. The pain can get worse when the horse eats or exercises. Some horses go into "fight or flight" mode from the pain, and have an abrupt personality change. I've seen it happen to several horses now, after a big move. With some they seem like completely different horses. My own mare was so upset with her ulcers that she got soaked with sweat just walking a half mile on a cool day. She also started attacking other horses. 

If your vet can get you compounded Omeprazole, it's quite affordable and our vets always say "try it" if you think the horse might have ulcers. I think a treatment lasts about two weeks and costs about $30. Online information will say compounded is not as effective as the tubed Gastrogard or Ulcergard, but so far it's worked for the horses we've treated with it.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

@gottatrot What do you mean when you say a treatment lasts about two weeks.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

LoriF said:


> @gottatrot What do you mean when you say a treatment lasts about two weeks.


You give the Omeprazole daily for a period of time to treat the ulcers, about two weeks.


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## horseylover1_1 (Feb 13, 2008)

Oh my goodness, I felt like crying when I read your story. He sounds like he's been absolutely traumatized. I can't imagine anyone ever doing something like that to Joy. I would want to hurt them. For him to react like that to a broom handle...

It sounds like you've done a lot of great work with him and don't necessarily need advice but I would spend 90% of your time just talking to him and loving him. I really do believe they are like people in that they understand when someone is talking to them in a soothing tone and it calms them. 

I do agree about getting the vet out. 

He's going to be ok. He's with you again, and because of that he's going to be ok.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> You give the Omeprazole daily for a period of time to treat the ulcers, about two weeks.


ok, so 30 dollars worth of medication last two weeks on a daily dosage when you have it compounded?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Why is the time period 2 weeks as opposed to 2/3 MONTHS on gastro/ulcergard? I find that odd.

It wouldn't hurt as a trial period I'm just not convinced it's a cue if he does have them.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Omneprazole needs to be given longer than two weeks. From my understanding, it takes two weeks for the ulcers to heal depending on severity, then the medication needs to he slowly tapered off so as not to cause a rebound in stomach acid. 
When I treated for ulcers, it was almost twice months. One months of treatment, then a couple weeks of tapering.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

LoriF said:


> ok, so 30 dollars worth of medication last two weeks on a daily dosage when you have it compounded?


You all are right, I forgot because the last time I used it was for preventative and not ulcer treatment. So the treatment we've done for horses has been one month for ulcers. So it was actually about $60 in cost.

Versus the tubed version which is not compounded. The dosing is 4 mg/kg, and for my horse the dose was 1.5 grams daily. A 2 gram tube costs around $30, so as you can see the compounded version is much cheaper. At least four or five horses I've known have used the compounded and had their ulcers clear up.

When I used the Omeprazole for ulcers, I just did the taper during the last five days or so of the month long treatment. By then, all symptoms were gone. Ulcers may take longer to heal, but usually they resolve quickly _*as long as you've addressed the problem that created them to begin with*_. 

So if you continue to feed grain, or exercise the horse during treatment or on an empty stomach, or don't provide lots of long stemmed forage continuously, etc., the treatment might have to combat those things and go on for longer.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> Why is the time period 2 weeks as opposed to 2/3 MONTHS on gastro/ulcergard? I find that odd.
> 
> It wouldn't hurt as a trial period I'm just not convinced it's a cue if he does have them.


With several horses I've seen that had ulcers:
The first started eating normally within three days, and looked more calm and relaxed. That seemed an obvious clue the horse actually did have ulcers.

The second one was grinding his teeth, appeared depressed and was also off his feed. He started eating after two days and was bright again.

The third one was nipping at his belly and acting spooky and nervous. He mellowed down and stopped nipping his belly within a week. He actually never went off his food in the first place, so that didn't change.

Based on these observations and the cost, I recommend a week trial to see if anything changes. I'm not saying this is the issue, I'm just saying I have seen behavioral changes that were related to ulcers after a move, and that it was an easy fix.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> Yes, versus the tubed version which is not compounded. The dosing is 4 mg/kg, and for my horse the dose was 1.5 grams daily. A 2 gram tube costs around $30, so as you can see the compounded version is much cheaper. At least four or five horses I've known have used the compounded and had their ulcers clear up.



Thanks, that's good to know. I had to treat Laela for ulcers once when someone allowed her to get a hold of a chlorine tablet and she ate it. I started treatment immediately instead of waiting to see on vets recommendation. It was pretty pricey for the tubes of ulcer guard.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I sent my stallion to a trainer and got back a different horse, not in a good way either. It took just about a year to get him back to being the kind, trusting, well mannered horse he had been. In that year I didn't ask a lot of him. Yes, he still had to mind his manners, still had to let the farrier work on him and allow the vet to do whatever even though he was now petrified of men but I didn't make him work. I'd get on him bridleless and just let him wander around where he wanted to go or even just stand there if that's what he wanted. I spent a lot of time doing with him things that he liked as in grooming, scratching his belly (His absolute favorite thing LOL), slowly desensitizing him to things again without demanding that he stand there...free to walk away because he had no halter or lead rope on him. Let me tell you it lightened my heart up when he started trusting me again and then as that grew he quit being so fearful of everything. It took a long time and I probably could have pushed it faster but I just had the feeling he needed slow to come all the way back. Taking that year was well worth it. 

Good thing that trainer dumped him off and took off for parts unknown because I'd probably still be in prison. To this day I'd take a baseball bat to him if I saw the lowlife. Even though Thunder has his good disposition back he still has to live with a tongue that's barely attached.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

I agree getting vet out is where to start. Nothing really to add other than I am so sorry to hear this, and wishing the very best for yall.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

oh no... your oh so sweet pretty boy . How awful. I would have the Vet run a blood panel , make sure there is not liver/kidney metabolic issues from all the sweet feed.
it sounds like someone did a real number on him. Poor boy. I hope he comes around and turns back into the sweet baby you left. I would be more than upset. 
Start with the Vet. Get rid of sweet feeds. Start with petting and cooing and calm quiet time with him . I hope he comes around soon.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

I think ill call the vet then. I've been having a no-nonsense attitude with him, as he got a little testy over his feed and nipped so he got a good pop with the bucket. 

Some days he's good, but some days are a lot worse than others. He's into his routine now and he comes into his stall by himself at sunset now. 

He's just so incredibly different. It's awful. I worked for years to mould a mind I could work with and that I enjoyed and it seems like it's come all undone. 

Right now he's off the sweet feed completely. I give him a handful (one cup) of honesty pellets in the afternoon with his vit/min supplement and a cup of vegetable oil for weight gain, since he's a bit on the lean side. He also gets a cup and a half of ac vinegar in his water tank for fly control. I tried feeding the ac vinegar (a tablespoon) in his grain but he went off his feed completely when he smelled it :lol: 

He gets free choice hay all day and night, and grazes a little during his outside hours. He's in more than I'd like, but he has to be supervised once in awhile so I have to be home. 

He is out at 3:30pm when I get home from work every day to graze and is in at around nine (sunset). Ideally, when we upgrade our fences he'll be out at 5am and in at 9-10pm, eventually being out 24/7. His fence jumping problem has diminished almost completely! 

I also found out that my mother had been riding him. It infuriates me. I have no idea how he is under saddle now.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Sorry to hear this Whatta. 

I agree with just letting him decompress. Give him time. Like a month maybe. Wait until he's realized that he's back with you now. 

As for calling the vet, I will have to disagree with everyone else. I would wait for that too, unless you see a specific symptom. I live in the same area as Whatta. I know what our vets are like. They are not equine vets, they are large animal farm vets hired by our department of agriculture. The vet will look at this horse and say they don't see anything wrong. Sure, you could ask for some testing, but for what? 

Now, treating for ulcers, I would probably go ahead and do. You can just buy Omeprazole and go ahead and give it to Trouble. No point in bringing a vet in for that. I treated Harley when we first bought him. 

In a few weeks, when Trouble settles down, perhaps you can bring in a vet. Maybe by then you will have observed some more specific symptoms. I'm not saying it's a bad idea to bring in a vet, just that I know our local vets, and if you call them in because your horse is terrified and mopey, they won't be of any help whatsoever. 

I'd also spend a lot of time with Trouble. Just hang out with him. It might also help you identify symptoms if they do emerge.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

This is him a few months ago, vs a few days ago. He's not really skinny by any means, but he's the thinnest I've ever seen him.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

I'll have to take a good profile shot, as I don't have any good ones. Here's another.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Id also agree in not calling the vet at this point. I don't see anything being physically wrong that you can't deal with on your own.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Here's a little video of him re integrating into the herd. I have many videos.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

What does your mom SAY happened? Can you read between the lines?


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Definitely a good idea to call the vet out. Sounds like something's happened to him, but try to keep a positive attitude, even though it's hard. Try not to think of re-doing everything, but figuring out what's wrong & working through it. Day by day. Hopefully you will have him back to his old self soon.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

egrogan said:


> What does your mom SAY happened? Can you read between the lines?


We don't speak anymore. I didn't even bother asking. I know what she's like, and I've seen what she does to horses, so I can assume. She has polar opposite ideas and skills than I, and we do not mesh in our horsemanship styles. She's very loud, aggressive and a classic "know it all". If it's not her way it's the wrong way. She's turned nice horses into monsters, Flippers, rearers, buckers, biters and kickers. I shouldn't have left him there but I had no choice, and now I'm paying for it


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I agree in treating for ulcers. We are using a supplement for one of our mares made by Redmond Rock it is a clay based supplement to help with stomach ulcers. So far our mare has put on a little weight and seems to be feeling much better.

Sorry to hear about Trouble but I think you have a good game plan and he will come around.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Okay, I'm putting my feelings aside and making a plan. 

How does my feed plan sound? Broken down:
Free choice hay 
Grazing 6 hours a day plus hay 
One cup of honesty pellets 
1 scoop (20cc) of vit/min supplement 
One cup of vegetable oil 
given at around 4pm for supper 

Im going to get a round of omezaperole for him- do I have to go to a vet for that? What brand should I use?

I will hold out calling the vet and wait another month for signs of improvement. 

I'll be spending time every night sitting in his stall with him. 

He'll be coming along with us when we go to cut fence posts, etc to just stand tied and be around us.


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## Cowgirl140ty (Jan 7, 2010)

I see he's an appy. They are sensitive, very smart and he will have to learn to trust you again. Give him time. Spend all the time you can with him... just brushing, walking, showing him he's back in good hands. 
As for the ulcer medicine, you can order it online. It's the active ingredient in ulcergard.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I've used abler AbProzole. Took a few weeks as it ships from the Pacific SW. Cost effective too. I had enough to treat a 1300 lbs horse for 30+ days, but ended up using it on a smaller one so I have extra. Was around $300.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Even if he had the worst life ever for a month, I don't think that it will undo completely how you raised him. It might take him a minute to realize he's ok but he'll get it. You already have him almost to the way he used to halter. Better use of money would probably be just to treat him for ulcers, just in case, and treat him the way you always have. He'll come around. Plus, even if he were in the best hands, he would still have to acclimate himself and find his place.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Just give him the hay and let him graze. I do not know what honesty pellets are ..hay ? Do not forget the free choice salt !


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## EmberScarlet (Oct 28, 2016)

An old cat of my sister's was ruined like this; although it's not the same with a cat or a horse.
He was SO lovable. He loved people, attention, and pats. He would follow you and snuggle, and he was a really good comfort when you were sad.
We had went on a two week vacation, and he stayed with our uncle. When we got back, he was hiding from us. He loved my sister, and came EVERY SINGLE TIME she called otherwise, but stayed hidden then. After a couple days, he started coming out but wouldn't let anyone near. 
He's hated men ever since, and it took a year before he liked his family again.

If I was you in this situation, I'd want to wham a baseball bat into your Mom's face, because I can't take people as they are, often enough, much less butts who hurt and ruined my friend.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> Okay, I'm putting my feelings aside and making a plan.
> 
> How does my feed plan sound? Broken down:
> Free choice hay
> ...


Feed sounds fine. Don't love the vege oil, I think there are better options. I'm also not concerned about him gaining weight now that he's back with you so would just let it happen on it's own. Honestly he's always appeared on the heavy side to me and while pics and such aren't the greatest he's far from skinny.

You can get ulcergard which in the states at least is $30/day. There are other kinds you can get online (generic omeprazole) but they aren't officially approved. Wouldn't hurt as you're mostly doing it as a trial. The only official treatment is gastrogard which is Rx and is exactly the same as ulcergard.

Yup just hang out and TRY not to worry about him or get upset. Obviously correct him if he's bad but mostly just ignore him and let him come to you. I really don't think it will take him long to come around. You're "his person" and he knows that.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sweet Feed can cause hind gut ulcers but I don't see that they'd cause him to be as mentally unsettled as you describe
It could be that he's been traumatized by overly rough handling, I've seen really solid horses completely changed by a really short time in bad hands but you can over come that just by calmly picking up his old way of being cared for
I would be inclined to call the vet, you know your mother and we don't, as I would want to rule out neurological disorders like Lyme Disease or a brain tumour


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

How horrible for you and your horse! I'm so sorry. I understand because I sold a horse a few years ago and got him back after 2 years a mess. About 200# underweight and afraid of EVERYTHING! It took some time, but he came back mentally and physically. I did have to spend some time just letting him be. Relaxed and calm before we could begin building confidence again. In the end he was the same old "friend" I had in the beginning. 

You can do this but I would treat for ulcers as a precaution. That is the most likely problem right now. And good hoof and mouth care.

Please let us know how it's going.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

So, 

A few days ago we did some work cutting fence posts and I decided that wherever I go, he goes too. He was ponied off the four wheeler and brought out to the back lot to stand tied while listening to the chainsaw run and all that hubub. 

For it being his first time ponied he did amazing! On the way back he did much much better and trotted beside the trailer like a pro. He also listened to the chainsaw intently but not afraid. I've narrowed down his fear to strictly whenever he's in the barn. Outside he is mostly okay. He's much more energetic this week, and I caught him lying down sleeping outside when I got home from work yesterday. 

We're finally on a good schedule I'm happy with- he goes out at six am before I leave for work and goes in his stall at dusk, and is putting himself in at night. All I have to do is close the gate. For some odd reason he does not want to eat his grain for the last few days, he will eat half and leave it for the chickens to peck at. In a few weeks I will be getting him some omezaperole and starting him on a dose of that to see if he eats better. I would start right now but I have a car to put on the road and some bills to catch up on. 

Over all he's doing better. He gets a little snotty in the barn and requires some firm boundaries, but hopefully I can ride next week and see how he is with that.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

@WhattaTroublemaker, that's good news. May I ask, is the grain necessary? And what kind are you feeding him?


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Blue said:


> @WhattaTroublemaker, that's good news. May I ask, is the grain necessary? And what kind are you feeding him?


He gets one cup of honesty pellets a day for his supplements, plus a cup of oil for his coat and to help the supplement stick to the grain. When that bag is done I'm switching to hay cubes/pellets.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

We had a small set back last night. He decided he did not want to go in the barn for the night. So out I go at nine (fully dark with all the rain) with a flashlight trying to locate the ****** in our 75 acres. What makes matters worse, the power to the barn decided to quit working completely. No lights, no radio, no power. After half hour of yelling, walking around and shaking a bag, I found him in the far corner of the pasture, grazing. 

It's been monsoon raining for a few days and it's so MUDDY. I've been trying to keep his feet dry when he's his stall but I haven't been able to stop a mild case of thrush. His central sulcus is sore to my prodding, so I'm battling that too.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You are very dedicated to that horse my dear. He is one lucky ****** I tell ya.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Trouble! What others have said, but is it possible he is lonely, or missing a close buddy from the other place? Might it be possible to take him back for a visit to see if things resolve? You're gonna hate this, but maybe put him back on sweet feed for awhile, and if he improves, wean him slowly?

Steve

Oops; didn't realize there were 5 pages; ignore the above if you've already been there.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I hesitated reading this thread. I sensed it would be bad news and I was right. 

I am so very sorry for Trouble and you.

Regarding the Omeprazole: if you have any sort of rapport with the vet, see if you can get it from the vet. It is my understanding that what you buy on your own is not the same strength.

I have dealt with gastric ulcers on three horses. With every horse the vet is very clear about keeping the horse on the Omeprazole for the full 30 days so the ulcers can heal. A thirty day bottle now costs me $180. It's pricey but well worth it.

Trouble probably needs de-wormed but do NOT do that until you take him thru the 30 day treatment for gastric ulcers.

I always have agreed with *GeorgeT's* great advice --- until now, lollol. Knowing what sweet feed can do to the hind gut and the angst Trouble is suffering thru, I would not put him back on sweet feed.

Is this what you are using to mix Trouble's supplements in?

http://www.clarencefarmservices.ca/wp-content/factsheets/equine/3584 CFS Honesty.pdf

If so, it will be ok until you finish the bag. If it is pelleted and has corn in it, the corn is distillers corn which means all the sugars have been removed by whiskey makers and the dried grain is then sold to feed makers.

I agree, however, to take Trouble off the Honesty feed when you finish the bag as they do not list ingredients. That means they can put any sort of by product in there to meet their guaranteed analysis. 

I am so sorry for Trouble's emotional scarring. Whatever happened to him in his stall will likely stay with him his entire life. Duke was forced into the back corner at feeding time and I'm sure was hit a few times. He was under five years when that happened but to his end time at 27, he would fly to the back corner of his stall, eyes wide, if a man simply took his hat off to scratch his head.

Lots of patience and please don't expect Trouble to shake off all of the skeletons -- if he completely forgets, all well and good. If he is so sensitive that he can't forget (like with the broom incident). You and everyone else will have to be mindful, respectful and give him his space in that regard.

Humans suffer traumas and are allowed to have space, animals should be given the same respect

Also, you'll hate me for this one but, I don't think Trouble looks that thin, lollol. He has lost a lot of weight but he looked too heavy in the first picture. I am sorry but that's what happens when you get the opinion of someone who lives with an insulin resistant horse, the vet frequently gets on my case about him weighing too much, and I can see three ribs, lollol


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

walkinthewalk said:


> I always have agreed with *GeorgeT's* great advice --- until now, lollol. Knowing what sweet feed can do to the hind gut and the angst Trouble is suffering thru, I would not put him back on sweet feed.


TeeHee! Thanks Walk. Mmmmm, assuming that ulcers aren't a problem . . .

I started giving my gang a skinny flake of Alfalfa for dinner (they are on free-feed Timothy hay) during a nasty cold spell last winter; just to help with those sub-zero nights don't ya know. Now it has become "expected" and I get some pretty grumpy equines if I don't have any to serve; like I'm deliberately _starving_ 'em or something. "We don' want no stinkin' Hay; We want our Al Fal Fa !!!"

Trouble, after reading all of the way thru this thread, one thing that did stand out was a dislike of the new barn environment. Can't imagine why this might be, but they can be moody, emotional critters. Maybe leave him turned out if that's what he prefers? Mine have access to nice stalls, but almost never use them, the one exception being on hot days; then they will come in to stand underneath the ceiling fans. I call 'em "Barn Trolls"; all you see is their noses sticking out 

Steve


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I glanced over the previous and didn't see where there was another horse for company. Is there?

Three year ago I was dubious about the need of another horse for company. I still think they may not be necessary on one condition: That their human stays physically with them 24/7/365.

In the wild, a lone horse is a dead horse. That seems to be etched or hard wired into their brain.

The only solution seems to be:

1. 24/7 with owner
2. a pasture mate
3. Learned Helplessness

I provided feed all winter for a horse that was not mine just so Hondo could have a buddy. If there's enough grass maybe advertise for free boarding for a compatible horse?

If none of this applies, just ignore me


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"Also, you'll hate me for this one but, I don't think Trouble looks that thin, lollol. He has lost a lot of weight but he looked too heavy in the first picture. I am sorry but that's what happens when you get the opinion of someone who lives with an insulin resistant horse, the vet frequently gets on my case about him weighing too much, and I can see three ribs, lollol"

My thoughts as well!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Whatever happened at your parent's place,now is past history, and you have to work with the horse you now have.
Many things could have attributed to the hrose he now is, with sweet feed certainly being a factor. Add possibility not being handled much in the last few months, change in coming to anew place, and possible mis handling/riding by your mom, and you now have ahorse you need to to 're introduced to.
First thing you must do, is not to use possible bad experience as an excuse, and work with the hrose you now have, to make him back into the horse you knew and enjoyed.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Whatever happened at your parent's place,now is past history, and you have to work with the horse you now have.


Yes, just this.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

some folks feed a 'skinny flake' of alfalfa daily. it can often help with horses who are prone to ulcers. at least, that's what our BO says, and they've never had any ulcers. but, the horses have mostly all day turnout, so that may be more the reason.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> the horses have mostly all day turnout, so that may be more the reason.


This is pretty much my understanding. Horses need to nibble all day to maintain a healthy tummy. Two or three large meals, no matter what's in 'em, just isn't the same thing.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Trouble is in a herd of four (five with him) and his stall is a part of the run in, panelled off. His stall is very roomy, 9 1/2 by 16 feet, with no solid wall dividing him from the others when they're in, just a heavy duty panel. He also has a window he can see the others out of when they're not in the run. He's only stalled at night as well, because I can't trust him enough to not jump the fence during the night. Over the last few weeks though, he's stayed in the pasture during the day, so fingers crossed when we revamp the fence he can be out 24/7. 

I was going to deworm him but thought against it for that very reason, as I don't want to upset his stomach more if it hurts. 

He gets unlimited hay in his stall 24/7 and will go in during the day to eat hay instead of graze, or to get out of the rain. I've also pin pointed his reactivity to his right side only, so I may test for night blindness, as his dam is a reg. appaloosa. Pray that's not the case, but it's possible. 

We're going for a ride today if he does well with his groundwork, and we will be doing some long trotting on a straight stretch with some hills on a quiet road across from my driveway. 

Thrush treatment is a-go, I squirted some koppercare into his central sulcus yesterday and will reapply today. Sucks because it is W E T outside. Knee deep mud in the front part of the pasture, and squishy ground everywhere else. I've been diligent on keeping his stall dry, it gets stripped every day and limed.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

On another note, he is SO SO messy in his stall. Poop spread everywhere, big huge puddles of pee everywhere, I swear he smears it all over on purpose.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

While every horse is different, here is my over-the-years- observation regarding messy stalls:

1. You clean the stall every day and lime it, so that is not an issue

2. Some horses, including geldings, will do all their poops in one spot. Some will pick a new spot every time.

3. All of them seem to pee in the same spot, unless that spot gets so over loaded, they will go to another spot.

4. None of my horses have ever trashed their stalls UNLESS they don't feel good. I have counted as many as 9 piles of manure from my 16.1H Walking Horse, in his 12 x 14 stall and they have all been in tact. I just stick the manure bucket fork under them and grab everything in one fell swoop.

If something outside disturbs the horses like a big lightening storm, or a pack of coyotes crossing the pasture, they will pace their stalls and mash the manure down into otherwise perfectly good shavings. 

If they don't feel good, they will do the same thing. The will also thrash around while lying down. When my IR horse foundered so bad, he would poop while he was laying down and that resulted in manure all over his bum, plus it would get stirred into the shavings when he got up.

MY point is that I don't think Trouble is inherently messy. My thought is that he either doesn't feel good in some way, being a flight animal he may feel stressed and is pacing his stall.

I still haven't found an affordable (to me) wireless camera system so I can have more sleepless nights from watching the barn, but I do have an intercom system on my nightstand. This is how I know about some of the thrashing.

I also know if my IR horse had a rough night by the amount of shavings stuck in his thick mane. Sometimes all I see is shavings


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

walkinthewalk said:


> While every horse is different, here is my over-the-years- observation regarding messy stalls:
> 
> 1. You clean the stall every day and lime it, so that is not an issue
> 
> ...


Amazing observations walkin, you're bang on. Trouble will pace back and forth from his hay to his window to watch the others. He will also not lay down in his stall. He also likes to hang over his gate. I'm calling the farrier out next week, to come down and take a look at his feet. We'll see yet again if I call in a shotty farrier, as he's new.

I want to start doing my own feet, and I've researched and studied enough to know what his feet should look like, and exactly what's wrong, but I lack the hands on skills to fix it properly. And good luck getting a farrier out who will do what you tell him :lol:


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

So an update on Trouble and I: 

A few days ago, he was transitioned to 24/7 pasture. He was doing extremely well staying in our new fencing, so I let him be. WELL. This morning I get up at five am to go to work, to have my neighbour banging on my door. All FIVE horses were about a mile down the road. So I hopped in the truck, found them, yelled and they all galloped home with the truck. This was instigated by Trouble no doubt. The four older horses have had the same fence for 15+ years. You can practically take the fence down and they don't leave. What's more bizarre, there was not one break in the fence, anywhere. So did they all jump over?? All in all, Trouble is back to going inside at night. He was not happy about it tonight but he will have to deal. He just can't be trusted. 

On another note, we've been going for hand walks off property and exploring some trails to get him over his slight herdiness- the second time out he forgot about his mates completely and was very excited to go for an adventure. We waded through some waist deep puddles, through come clear cuts and around some ATV trails. 

Another thing I've noticed -which I'm very excited about- is that he's finally behaving like a horse. Today he played with the pony for 45 minutes, biting each others knees and being pests, but he also exhibited some stallion like behaviour, like snaking our mares and chasing the geldings away from them. Something I've NEVER seen. If I hadn't witnessed two testicles come out of that horse (albeit they were TINY for a three year old stallion) I'd think he was a crypt. He went on teasing the mares for about an hour, biting their hocks and stifles and snaking them quite aggressively, before he took a keen interest in running the pony out of the herd and kneeing him into the ground with a mouthful of crest. Good thing pony can hold his own, and he seemed to enjoy the posturing. I'm just glad he's acting like a horse. He never played when he was a babe, was very very submissive, just generally numb about the herd dynamics. Which shouldn't have been that way since he was socialized very well. 

I'm going to video some of the behaviour tomorrow because I find it interesting and beautiful to watch- as long as he doesn't try this nonsense with me- and in case anyone else cares to enjoy it.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

[



He gets unlimited hay in his stall 24/7 and will go in during the day to eat hay instead of graze, or to get out of the rain. I've also pin pointed his reactivity to his right side only, so I may test for night blindness, as his dam is a reg. appaloosa. Pray that's not the case, but it's possible. 

We're going for a ride today if he does well with his groundwork, and we will be doing some long trotting on a straight stretch with some hills on a quiet road across from my driveway. 

Thrush treatment is a-go, I squirted some koppercare into his central sulcus yesterday and will reapply today. Sucks because it is W E T outside. Knee deep mud in the front part of the pasture, and squishy ground everywhere else. I've been diligent on keeping his stall dry, it gets stripped every day and limed.

If he is only half Appaloosa I doubt you need to worry about CSNB, as horses that have the condition are homozygous for the LP complex[/QUOTE]


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Smilie said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Ah I get ya. Now equine reccurent uveitis- this is different than CSNB correct? As it's found in quarter horses as well as Appaloosas? I doubt he has a vision problem but I want to keep my mind open.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The escape piqued my interest. Do you think all the horses could jump it? How high? Is it possible they could walk through it? I had a three strand rope electric fence that was off. One horse that didn't know about it being electric just sort of wormed his way through the fence and was just standing inside the pen/yard eating hay.

If there were a strand of electric fence and he touched it, he'd stay away after that. If he can get out during the night I'd worry about him getting out in the daytime.

Glad he's being a horse. Sounds smart too.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Hondo said:


> The escape piqued my interest. Do you think all the horses could jump it? How high? Is it possible they could walk through it? I had a three strand rope electric fence that was off. One horse that didn't know about it being electric just sort of wormed his way through the fence and was just standing inside the pen/yard eating hay.
> 
> If there were a strand of electric fence and he touched it, he'd stay away after that. If he can get out during the night I'd worry about him getting out in the daytime.
> 
> Glad he's being a horse. Sounds smart too.


Oh, it's hot alright. He's shocked himself countless times and turned to jumping over it (what talent) he stays in the fence during the day (don't know why the grass is greener on the other side at night :? ) the others haven't gotten out in literally YEARS with the exception of one mare who would walk over it last winter when the snow drifted above it. 

It's a single strand of Hotwire, just above chest high (just below where their nose would be when walking) and the others are highly respectable around the electric. Will not go anywhere near it. When we used to block off the winter pasture we had to force them across in the spring because they thought it was still there. What a hoot that was. 

Worst part, they didn't want to go BACK into the pasture in fear of the fence. I went around the entire thing and found no down wires, no cold spots, no breaks. The only thing I can think of is if someone let them out in the middle of the night (?!?!?!) and closed the gate behind them. It's highly unlikely they would ALL jump over it and no one would get snagged and pull some down. One of our mares is retired and nearly crippled, can hardly step into a trailer- so it's very unlikely that she would jump a fence. They're huge home bodies too, they haven't been off property in years with the exception of Trouble.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hee. I actually have the same problem sort of with Dragon. He's a jumper but only jumps out if I take both of the other horses with me and he's left alone.

I have electrified ropes and he'll play with them like he thinks they are a guitar string. I've gone to turn on the juice, waiting for him to not be touching it, and as soon as I turn it on he leaves. He somehow seems to be able to sense that it's on. He is such a pest and I really like him for that.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ah I get ya. Now equine reccurent uveitis- this is different than CSNB correct? As it's found in quarter horses as well as Appaloosas? I doubt he has a vision problem but I want to keep my mind open.[/QUOTE]

Yes, uveitis is also called moon blindness, and is progressive, getting worse with every attack. Because many Appaloosas have lack of pigmentation around eyes, they have a relatively high incident of Uveitis,although nay breed can get it

CSNB, on the other hand is directly genetic, there at birth, and 'stationary;so does not get worse with time. Horses affected with CSNB simply lack some rods, I believe, but need to look that fact up, so taht they can't see in dim light, but they see normally in day light


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Hee. I actually have the same problem sort of with Dragon. He's a jumper but only jumps out if I take both of the other horses with me and he's left alone.
> 
> I have electrified ropes and he'll play with them like he thinks they are a guitar string. I've gone to turn on the juice, waiting for him to not be touching it, and as soon as I turn it on he leaves. He somehow seems to be able to sense that it's on. He is such a pest and I really like him for that.


 Yes, horses do learn when a fence is on, and having it not on at times, will have horses testing it, not respecting it as much, and then also running through it, even when it is on, as the 'guessed wrong'
If you use electric fencing you really diminish it's effectiveness by not having it on all the time, so that it gives 'the same answer' each time


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Dragon is the only horse that seems to know when it's on. There is one other young colt who used to test it for a while and would get shocked every time. He's is no longer around the fence.

It has been turned off for 2 years and has kept the other two horses and do in during that time. Works fine turned off. Dragon doesn't even try to get out. He just likes to pull on the ropes with his mouth and watch them go sproinnng like a guitar string. They have all three been panicked by what ever in the yard/pen and wanted out but none tried running through the fence.

It is claimed that every ranch should have at least on electric fence somewhere that the cattle are exposed to because it causes them to respect all fences more.

Electric fence absolutely does not need to be on all the time to be effective. Dragon is a very unusual horse.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

SO. 

ALL horses are inside indefinitely until we figure out exactly WHAT is going on. Left Trouble in last night and today, and got a call on my way home from work that the rest of the herd was out and about a mile down the road. Went down, called them back, re checked the fence, again, NOTHING. No breaks, no sags, no cold spots, no nothing. SOMETHING is going on. I don't know if it's some little punk opening the gate when no ones home/sleeping or what, but if that is what's going on there will be hell to pay. We're adding a top line to the fence and a lower one as well. We're also reenforcing the gates to be lockable, and I'm setting up a trail camera hidden at the main gate. 

This has to stop. Trouble is obviously NOT the reason they got out, which is what I first thought. He will be going out supervised today, since I don't like to leave him in his stall for long periods of time, but the others will have to deal with it until we figure out what in the world is going on.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but you said there's _one_, chest high strand of wire? Can't they just go under that? Maybe I'm not getting the setup.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

egrogan said:


> Sorry if I'm misunderstanding, but you said there's _one_, chest high strand of wire? Can't they just go under that? Maybe I'm not getting the setup.


It's at a height that discourages them from going under AND over, if you can understand that. After years of having single strand fencing, we've pretty much perfected the height needed. Our horses also aren't keen on going over the wire. If they hear it snap they stay at least ten yard away from it.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I think she also mentioned the top wire was nose height. I would go wither height at least (mine are all 5 feet tall and my horses are only 14.2/14.3). And at least three wires, all hot. 

Whatta did just say that they added a wire above and below it though, which should help. I sure hope it's not someone turning them loose. 

Harley used to get out of his paddock last summer, when he was boarded at the neighbors. But their fences were not tall enough for him. He's a jumper! Maybe Trouble should be a jumper, LOL. I have NEVER had them escape since I brought them back home. Well, except the time that I left the gate open. Duh. 

Let us know what you find out with those trail cams!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> It's at a height that discourages them from going under AND over, if you can understand that. After years of having single strand fencing, we've pretty much perfected the height needed. Our horses also aren't keen on going over the wire. If they hear it snap they stay at least ten yard away from it.


Sorry, but the escaping horses are contradicting that! Unless of course someone is letting them out... Harley is perfectly capable (and smart enough) to roll under a single strand like that. We were warned, which is why I have 3 strands. Clever horses can figure that out. It would be highly unlikely for them all to imitate Trouble to get out, however!


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> Sorry, but the escaping horses are contradicting that! Unless of course someone is letting them out... Harley is perfectly capable (and smart enough) to roll under a single strand like that. We were warned, which is why I have 3 strands. Clever horses can figure that out. It would be highly unlikely for them all to imitate Trouble to get out, however!


I completely understand that not all horses are capable of being contained by a single strand. But what gets me is all four of these horses were on the same property, within the same fenceline, inside the same strand of single wire for fifteen plus years. One mare has been here for nearly twenty years in the same pasture, same wire, same perimeter. The only issues we've had were with animals chasing them through the wire. Even when the wire was down, they stay in. Trouble however, is new. He doesn't know our "fence etiquette" and IS a fence jumper- which the others are absolutely not. It's so incredibly unlikely that he just "taught" all the others to jump the fence in a night (including gimpy retiree and little pony) that I can't possibly see that happening.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I was using a single strand at one time. Hondo hit it with his shoulder and said, on no it's hot, arched his shoulder and back down and moved right on under it. Trouble could have done that with the others watching. Horses learn like that sometimes.

I'm betting a second wire half way to the ground will stop that as all four are not likely jumping it. As you say, someone would likely have caught a foot.

But yeah, if you can throw a bicycle cable and a pad lock on the gates first, that'd be the easiest thing to eliminate. Next step would be the fence.

It would seem that many horses would leave hoof prints but if the grass is tall, maybe not.

Aren't horses fun?


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Hondo said:


> I was using a single strand at one time. Hondo hit it with his shoulder and said, on no it's hot, arched his shoulder and back down and moved right on under it. Trouble could have done that with the others watching. Horses learn like that sometimes.
> 
> I'm betting a second wire half way to the ground will stop that as all four are not likely jumping it. As you say, someone would likely have caught a foot.
> 
> ...


There are tracks all over the outside perimeter of the pasture, but I cannot tell where they got out. There's also tracks all over the driveway, which makes me wonder if they were trying to find a way back IN. Whenever one touches the fence, they have a very strong reaction. Even the ones who didn't touch it will run. Our fence charger is extremely strong, as we used it to charge a bull pen, fencing for cattle and seventy five acres as well.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> I completely understand that not all horses are capable of being contained by a single strand. But what gets me is all four of these horses were on the same property, within the same fenceline, inside the same strand of single wire for fifteen plus years. One mare has been here for nearly twenty years in the same pasture, same wire, same perimeter. The only issues we've had were with animals chasing them through the wire. Even when the wire was down, they stay in. Trouble however, is new. He doesn't know our "fence etiquette" and IS a fence jumper- which the others are absolutely not. It's so incredibly unlikely that he just "taught" all the others to jump the fence in a night (including gimpy retiree and little pony) that I can't possibly see that happening.


I have to agree with you there. Something's not right.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Got a good sleeping bag?
I would definitely try to see how they are getting out at night. 
Yes, many times a single strand keeps horses in. My temporary fencing, that I use inside my permanent fence lines, to manage amount of pasture, is a single strand of white electric tape
However, my perimeter fence lines have two strands of smooth wire, and three in the pasture where I used to have foals. Top wire is hot
Horses do learn to run under a single strand, even a hot one-doing a 'duck and scoot'
I don't know of anyone here that uses a single strand of wire for their perimeter fences-well, perhaps the guy , whose land is across from us, but whose buildings are assessed on the next road east, as we have had his horses, his lamas and his dam donkeys here.
Yes, can happen to anyone once or so, but when you get known in the neighborhood, as someone whose animals constantly get out-not good!
My horses are getting de - spooked to donkeys, but not happy that it happens when I am not home,and thus can get put through a fence
Four times and out, for that dam jack donkey!
When I was still working in the lab, I would come home to find the one neighbour;s horses in our yard, including in heat mares.It was only because our stallion was in a field with two strands of wire, atop rail and then a hot wire above the rails, that a disaster was prevented. Since they only had an acreage, they would pasture the horses on their lawn, and just close off the laneway with a .rope.
Yea, that worked well!
Not saying that is it in your case, but I also would not be happy if a neighbor was running livestock, using just a single strand of wire, as his main fenceline. Don't care what he does, dividing up his own pastures, as it does not affect me!
I would be surprised if someone was letting your horses out, but anything is possible, including those hroses learning to duck under that single wire, and chance getting a quick zap


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> It's at a height that discourages them from going under AND over, if you can understand that. After years of having single strand fencing, we've pretty much perfected the height needed. Our horses also aren't keen on going over the wire. If they hear it snap they stay at least ten yard away from it.


Yeah sorry that's just not going to work. I think you've gotten lucky on having easy horses that want to stay in. Trouble clearly showed them how to get out and now they're taking the opportunity. Once they know they know. And I highly doubt they are jumping (at least all of them jumping) with one strand if would be far easier to go under. One strand won't stop ANY horse that wants to leave, you've been lucky that they haven't wanted to leave before now.

Put up at least one more strand. There could be something else going on but having a solid fence is the starting point.

We have 2 strands of electric tape and I would never keep any horse that wanted to get out in, it also needs to be on. That's the bare minimum. I thought the fence looked pretty flimsy but guessed it was temporary not permanent!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Have you figured out what was happening *@whattatroublemaker*? Have the horses gotten out again?

I have to agree with @*Yogiwick* . I can't imagine one strand working for Trouble. Not the best idea to keep in any animal, really, especially on uneven ground. I'm assuming you don't want to add a strand because it's 75 acres. Does it have to be 75 acres though? Can't you fence off just part of that?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

T-post insulators at 25 feet and galvanized wire for 1.5 miles is under $250 at Tractor Supply. I may be splitting up my pasture but I'll have to buy some posts also.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

We may have found some reason/answers to our fencing problem. We have been working endlessly for the past few days on our fencing. We've discovered some pretty interesting things. There is one corner of the fence that we usually pass over because it is so intensely wooded. It is a swamp, knee deep swamy-ness (mud, water, peat moss) so thickly wooded with alders nearly nothing can pass through. When we had cattle the cattle usually kept it quite eaten down, bt after selling the cows and opening the pasture up for the horses, it has grew back twice as thick as its ever been. Its a place that the horses don't wander into. No food, shotty footing, thick dense cover not well suited for prey animals. Well. 

We picked up some bear sign in the far corner of the pasture. After investigating we discovered that horse tracks went through there on the tear, and bear sign cut them off from the house. What we've put together is they were out grazing when a bear came up from the far side of the pasture, he got between them and the way home, and they bolted in the opposite direction-away from home and toward the neighbors quite some distance away. They cut through the swamp and went through the fence, went quite a ways, made a U turn back to the fence and could not find where they could get back in. They went around almost the entire fenceline, up the driveway, around again and ended up about a mile down the road. When we didn't catch the break the first time they had learned there was quite a bit of grass down the road, and used the same trail through the fence but headed straight down the road this time to the grass.
So for the last two days we have been cutting alders out of the swamp, pounding fenceposts and reinforcing the fence along that stretch. They are out tonight and we will see where they are in the morning! Glad we got this issue sorted out!


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

How is Trouble doing with getting back to his old self, Whatta?


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

The escape artists have been thwarted. They're officially keeping to the pasture. 

Trouble is doing better, I've decided to buy a driving harness and start driving him/hauling small logs etc. He's still a bit jumpy, a little nervous and a bit head shy, but we're getting better every day. He had a fit over an extension cord so he got to spend an hour tied with it draped all over him. No tantrums! Not allowed :lol: it's finally starting to dry up and I've got his thrush cleared up, next step is to have the farrier out to clean his feet up. 

He's on 24/7 turn out now, finally, and I've cut grain off completely to see if there's any change in his behaviour. We'll be starting under saddle soon again as well, hopefully today. We're working toward a 25km ride with a friend, which will be great for him as we've only ridden with another horse a few times, and never a strange horse.


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