# Western & English Riding in the US



## Loosewolf (Oct 31, 2008)

At the great risk of being unpopular, I tend to agree with the above research.
My main discipline is and always will be English, however I do own Western tack.
I find for certain applications, the Western saddle is a useful tool.
I have a light-weight synthetic Western saddle, on it I use brass stirrup spinners (to allow the stirrup to be forward with my foot in it). It fits the Horse well, it cleans easily, and the "tree" or what ever it's material really is made of, holds up off the horses spine quite well. The McClellan saddle is butt-harsh, but I agree it is very tight-contact. 
For what it's worth... -Lw


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*Western & English*

If Americans riders are planning to switch from the Western style of riding to the so called “English” style then perhaps they should first understand the terminology and the reasoning behind the different styles.

The American Western system was strongly influenced by the Iberian system of Doma Vaquera - the rural way of training and sitting a horse - particularly what became known as the Andalucian horse. The system had come about because of the bull ring and horses have always been used within the ring - in Spain to herd the bull, in Portugal to fight the bull. The horse therefore had to be well balanced because in order to perform in the ring without being hurt by the horns of the bull, the horse had to be “handy“ on its hind quarters. 
However also in the South of Iberia, the horse was used to herd the sheep up and down the mountain sides. Again, the horse had to be handy, those mountainsides are pretty steep.


The rural horsemen became proficient because they had learned to ride as youngsters and it was to be their job for a lifetime. Horses live for between 20-30 years, whereas in the old days a man might live for just 60. There was a constant need for remounts. Gradually a universally accepted method of breaking horses was developed for which the basic tool used to school the horse was devised - the serreta - a nasty steel brace across the nose of the horse. Not even the most fiery of horses will resist the pressure and pain of the serretta and once broken, the horse with its long memory will never forget the experience Neither will the scars on the horse’s nose disappear. 

The other important Iberian influence was that Spanish & Portuguese men prefer to ride stallions because they believe that the stallions have more courage. The fear inbred into horses as flight or fight creatures was to be countered by the courage induced by testosterone.

From the 18th century onwards in America along came the American cowboy. An immigrant might get off in Virginia the ship from Europe and all the work available to him was that of a cow hand. His first job would be to learn to ride a horse as quickly as possible. The chances were that unless he had been in the Cavalry he would never previously have ridden a horse. The Western system was easy to learn. A nice heavy saddle, which would carry his accoutrements and in which he sat supported by a high cantle at the back and a high pommel up front enabled him to sit in the saddle rather than sit on it as would be the case in a typical European saddle. The big padded stirrups enabled him to stand up on the saddle rather than sit into it. The horn was there to enable him to use the lariat - another skill he would have to acquire quickly. 

The Western way is a good system. It is practical and the saddle will fit a broad range of horses and is a working tool. A human can sit in a well designed Western version for a day without undue stress. The only saddles which comes anywhere near the pattern in Europe are those to be found in Spain, Portugal or the Camargue where they use a small wiry horse said to be a relative of the Andalucian.

What of course helped develop the Western riding system was the influence of the Mexican ranchers. It was Mexico that first started to colonize Texas and California.
They had seen the potential of the vast open spaces that then existed. South American culture itself had been heavily influenced by Spain and Portugal - southern European countries. Those earlier European pioneers took to both Central and South AMerica their cultural systems including the horses themselves and the way in which they schooled and rode horses.

In Europe the scene was different; By the 18th century horses were used as modes of transport. Horses were used on the farm or to pull carts to market. The gentry could afford to keep a horse as a means of personal transport but the peasants had to walk. Of course one could always join the Cavalry. Then slowly but surely and across all of Europe the so called “English“ style emerged. In truth the French, the Italians, the Germans and The Russians had as much to do with the development of the riding system as the “English”. The English Cavalry was to be found across Europe and for some reason lost in history Americans describe the saddles used as “English” cut. However for accuracy for “English” read “European“. 

The acknowledged Horsemasters of the 18th & 19th century ( eg De La Gueriniere) were mostly French or German. The British merely produced the Duke of Newcastle and Captain Nolan of Charge of the Light. Brigade fame. In Britain, the system of riding as utilised today has its roots in the traditions of the Military and the hunting of foxes. Members of the Hunt were for the most part army officers, country gentlemen and farmers. 
There is nowadays no British equivalent of Saumur or The Spanish Riding School in Vienna. The cavalry centre at Weedon in the UK was closed down in 1938 when war was imminent. The German Army was in 1941 still heavily dependent upon horses for transportation especially in Eastern Europe where roads were poor.

From the 1950s onwards, equestrian sport has been the driving force behind the changes in the equestrian world in Europe. Increasingly the Germans dominate the international dressage arena and the British follow their example so as not to be left behind in the fashion. 

The British have a horsey culture which stretches back for centuries to the era before the Romans came. They have access to a wide variety of horse breeds amongst which is a significant national herd of cross breeds. The abundant green fields of Britain give sustenance to a horse in much the same way as does the Blue Grass of Kentucky. The Thorobred, an English “invention” is not the only British breed of horses to have become the foundation stock for herds across the world. The genes of Shires, Dales, Welsh Cobs, Clevedon Bays and others are to be found everywhere in the world. Likewise examples of nearly every horse breed in the world can be found on the Island of Great Britain. Britain is horse heaven.


So what is the difference between Western & English riding. Essentially it settles upon the purpose for which the horse is used. The design of the Western saddle v the English saddle assures the difference.

Although an experienced rider could use either cut of saddle in either method except he could not rope successfully a steer from an English saddle. Likewise the horn and cut of a Western saddle would inhibit any jumping. Is one system better than the other? - No - each system has its advantages.

It is important to point out that even under the so called “English” method there are several distinct riding styles. The flat racer perches up on a miniscule saddle; the point to pointer employs a typical general purpose hunting saddle. 
The dressage rider rides collected with long legs on a straight cut dressage saddle; the show jumper rides with shortened stirrup leathers on a jumping saddle with deep knee rolls. 
Some of the hunting fraternity sit back and ride with their legs out front; forward riders sit with weight up front on the stirrups and lean forwards when going downhill at the canter or gallop. 
Some weekend riders utilise a style not described in any manual but as long as they have control of their horse and they don’t come off, who cares? 

Many owners of a horse in Britain buy a new saddle when they buy the horse. Unlike the standard Western saddle, the English cut saddle must fit the shape of the horse's back and must also suit the purpose - there is little room for error if the horse is not to get back ache. Some horses have several saddles, each saddle suiting better a purpose than another of a different design. As much as there is in variance in the saddles so too is there a range of bridles and bits and other leather accessories. Suffice it to say that the British horse has an extensive tailored to measure wardrobe and that is before one counts the horse blankets.

To be continued


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

Barry Godden that is very interesting.

I exspecially like this part. 

Although an experienced rider could use either cut of saddle in either method except he could not rope successfully a steer from an English saddle. Likewise the horn and cut of a Western saddle would inhibit any jumping. Is one system better than the other? - No - each system has its advantages.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

> Now what can be more American than Custer’s 7th Cavalry?


Err... The Lakota who whipped Custer's butt?

Seriously, this is interesting reading. However - speaking from my position of utter & complete ignorance - both English and Western have rather serious image problems, at least as this outsider sees them. English? Like you're ever going to get me to dress up in jodphurs, a jacket, and top hat, and spend the day riding around a ring? Western? Then I'd need the boots and Stetson, and the "Big Hat, No Cattle" attitude. 

I don't want to buy into any kind of image, I just want to have an enjoyable (for all parties) day.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

If you don't plan on showing, you can ride english or western and wear whatever you like. I ride western and I don't even own wranglers or a cowboy hat. I will borrow a hat for shows if I must...but thats about it. 

Breeches I will wear just so I don't rub in funky places but otherwise I wear some half chaps and a polo.


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

jamesqf said:


> Err... The Lakota who whipped Custer's butt?
> 
> Seriously, this is interesting reading. However - speaking from my position of utter & complete ignorance - both English and Western have rather serious image problems, at least as this outsider sees them. English? Like you're ever going to get me to dress up in jodphurs, a jacket, and top hat, and spend the day riding around a ring? Western? Then I'd need the boots and Stetson, and the "Big Hat, No Cattle" attitude.
> 
> I don't want to buy into any kind of image, I just want to have an enjoyable (for all parties) day.


Both can have that imagine problem, but I wouldn't say that the negitive imagine is 100% true either. 

And speaking of the 7th Cavalry, it must be remembered that from the day Liddy Custer learned of her husband's defeat and death until her death. She did everything possible to kept his memory in the public eye, that plus he was a glory boy in the Civil War. And he unlike most other officer of his day, he knew how to use the press and did so while he was on the frontier. When the Cavalry is talked about exspecially about the that time period (the old west) usually the 7th, and the buffalo regiments (9th and 10th regiments) are the subject.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> If you don't plan on showing, you can ride english or western and wear whatever you like.


Sure - I just meant that those are the impressions that one gets, looking from the outside; impressions which (to my mind, at least), are less attractive than the reality. It's like thinking you have to dress up as a faux Tour de France competitor in order to bike to work 

Then there's another question that nags at me: why just English or Western? Take those Lakota that did for Custer: how did they train & ride their horses? It must have been effective, to enable them to e.g. use a bow or lance while riding among a buffalo herd. And for those of us who lack either a pack of foxhounds or a herd of longhorns (and what an impoverished age this is, to be sure ), perhaps as practical a way of relating to riding.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

In Britain, except for going to shows, one does not have to dress up to ride but having said that: 

the riding hat is a must - nowadays almost compulsory for a variety of reasons.

the riding pants : of whatever pattern and whatever colour and whatever material but bought specifically for the job and cut to allow free movement on horse back

the riding "shoes" ie long boots, of leather, pvc, rubber
or short boots with gaiters - again whatever is found in the tack shop but there is a very wide range of choice.

the jacket - well a specialist cut riding jacket, chosen from literally hundred of designs in different colours in different materials

Which means that for horse riding the rider can choose specialist clothing, designed to fulfill a purpose, however one can still dress individually through choice without having to conform to a dress code.

Until the rider enters the competition ring, freedom of choice is univeral but with the show ring comes the tradition of everyone riding wearing the same cut and colour of clothes.

Neither my wife nor I own a traditional black hunting jacket nor do we ever wear riding shirts nor stocks.
But there again, we do not compete.

Some fancy fox hunts still enforce a rigid dress code -
ie black jackets, white/fawn jodhs, black/brown leather/pvc boots but the minor hunts out in the country, mostly the farmers hunts, then you can wear pretty much what you like as long as you can stay dry and warm.

In my opinion the concept of "dressing up" is more associated with the female urge to "follow fashion" and "look the part" than a present day convention of wearing the "correct" riding apparel.

Increasingly riders hacking out within traffic on minor country roads and lanes wear a dayglo, bright yellow, or bright red jacket or waist coat to bring their presence to the attention of car drivers. Noone looks elegant wearing a fluorescent jacket.

As for men, well the physical problem of sitting on a saddle in comfort is assisted by wearing the right "trousers". The thick seam running down the inside leg of a pair of jeans rubs the inner thigh.

Barry G


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

One suspects that the Lakotas and the other tribes caught or "found" their horses, The horses probably did not come ready tacked up with saddle and bridle. So they started from scratch - they knew that one sat on the horse and that the horse could be controlled. So they experimented and found for themselves the best way of riding. Stacy Westfall illustrates very well that one does not "need" a saddle or bridle & bit to ride and control a horse at speed.

The "whites" came from a society where there was a tradition of riding and they would invariably have been influenced by the availability of ready made saddles.
They would to a greater or lesser degree have been taught by others who already knew how to use a saddle and bridle according to tradition.

The making of saddles and bridles calls for quite a sophisticated industry and technology which the tribes did not have access to.

What is a real problem for any grouping that does not read or write is the transfer of knowledge from one generation down to the next. Through singing, chanting, wise men - fine, a certain amount of knowledge and history can be transferred down the generations but not that much. 
The tribes did discover the horse blanket quite quickly together with the bosal. I'd say they were clever folks.

Custer - well as a Brit all I can say is that he still has a world wide image of being an all American hero, who made more than one serious mistake - but that is usually par for the course with generals of any nation - is it not?
We Brits have more than our fair share of famous generals - relatively few of whom actually died in battle.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> In my opinion the concept of "dressing up" is more associated with the female urge to "follow fashion" and "look the part" than a present day convention of wearing the "correct" riding apparel.


^Love this, I think you've hit the nail here, Barry. 
In my area, hunt seat riders are relatively rare, especially compared to hardcore barrel racers (as far as the show ring goes; recreational trail riders outnumber all). I rode and showed Western (Halter, showmanship, pleasure, and equitation) for years, and switched to riding primarily English style (or European... I'll try to avoid my habitual terminology :wink about three years ago. The big thing for me (as far as competition went) was the attire. Even at small shows, fashion always seemed to mean more in the Western ring than a well schooled horse and a good rider. I'm not a "glitzy girl" at all, and when the judges expect glitz and the rider who either can't afford or chooses not to wear sequins, crystals, and bold colors and patterns, even the most capable rider on the best schooled horse (which I'm not at all saying I ever was :lol doesn't stand a chance. European style show attire is far more "me," lol. The competition clothers are comfortable, functional, and blessedly un-pink and glitter free!

I've drifted farther from the show pen in the past few years. The fun and experience of training gives me more enjoyment than competition ever did; to take a greenie or a problem and turn him into a willing and compliant, trusting partner, willing and pleasant under any situation into which I might lead him.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> The making of saddles and bridles calls for quite a sophisticated industry and technology which the tribes did not have access to.


Does it? I wouldn't think it'd take more than leather and wood-working, which they were quite skilled at.



> What is a real problem for any grouping that does not read or write is the transfer of knowledge from one generation down to the next.


But practical knowledge, such as horse-riding, would get passed on by continuous use - as kids grew up, they'd be getting horses, being taught to ride them, etc. Indeed, isn't that mainly the way it gets passed on even today? You don't go to the library and learn how to ride from a book, you take lessons.



> Custer - well as a Brit all I can say is that he still has a world wide image of being an all American hero...


Odd, because as an American that's not at all the image I have of him. What with one thing and another, I'll grant that I may be a bit prejudiced, but I think "arrogant glory-hound" about covers it.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

James
I am one of those guys that can't make anything with their hands. But I have recognised that making a saddle calls for a few more skills than being good at woodwork.
Curing the leather for a start presents problems - then most saddles have a metal content. The native american did not have an "industrial" infrastructure - he was at a disadvantage in his struggle to retain independence from the very start.

When learning to ride one should indeed use a tutor for hands on experience, but the learner rider is throwing away centuries of accumulated knowledge if he/she does
not read a technical book about horses. I have a 100 or so horse books in my library and quite a few of them are by American authors. Reading broadens the mind.

Custer , well he has managed to gain a reputation world wide for being an all American hero - largely thanks to Hollywood. I can understand why quite a few people might find that reputation undeserved - from both sides of the two major conflicts in which he was involved - the Civil War and the Indian Wars. But I was basically referring to the US 7th Cavalry - not merely a passing leader of which he was but one. I am a Brit - it is not for me to praise him or to criticise him - all I can say is that he was, and remains, a famous American who rode a horse.

What I was trying to write was that Native Americans developed despite significant disadvantages an enviable reputation for horsemanship - according to legend. And from recent TV programmes shown over here - it seems they still retain those skills. With hindsight maybe I should have learned to ride a horse bareback - but I never did get around to acquiring the skills.

Barry G


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## Kentucky (Aug 2, 2008)

I am one of those guys that can't make anything with their hands. But I have recognised that making a saddle calls for a few more skills than being good at woodwork.
Curing the leather for a start presents problems - then most saddles have a metal content. The native american did not have an "industrial" infrastructure - he was at a disadvantage in his struggle to retain independence from the very start.

For the American Indian, leather and wood work was very common to them exspecially the plains nations. And they could just as easily raided or traded for the tools they lacked. granted the Spanish exspecialy tried to hold that edge over the natives. I think there "saddles" could be closer to a modern bareback pad than a modern saddle. I think the Comanche wrapped their horses with rope around their ribs so they could hold on better.


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