# Suing for a horse not being as advertised?



## JustDressageIt

I'm sorry but you bought an animal sight-unseen without a PPE. Height is rarely, if ever, as advertised. 
Is everything else as advertised? Are you ONLY miffed about height? I'm not sure 4" is going to make him worth half of what you paid... That is completely subjective. 

I would strongly suggest you ask a Mod to remove that barn name from your post; you're mad but I'm not sure it warrants bringing forth the barn's name as you CHOSE to forego industry standards such as seeing the horse in person or having a PPE, in which you could have asked the vet to measure. Bringing the barn's name up is in poor taste and they could look at it as libel. 

Sorry, but IMO take this as an expensive lesson to not buy sight unseen, or make sure you dot every I and cross every T that is important to you before you pay for the animal. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d

you got there, looked at the horse knew it wasnt as advertised and took it home anyway ? Whats wrong with you ?


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## texasgal

Welcome to the forum.

It could go either way, imo. You saw the horse, recognized he was small, and left the property with him. You could have asked to have him measured right then.

However, You did pay in advance, and the ad did clearly state he was 15.3 and he is not.. definitely in your favor.

Why in the world did you leave with him if height was an issue for you?

I'm sorry this happened. Good luck.

All you can do is contact an attorney about the law and see what he/she says.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

If you have a sales contract I'll just about bet that there's a "no warranties, as is, where is" clause in it and you have no recourse. The only thing you could have done was to refuse the horse at the farm and ask for your money back then, which they might or might not have done. I'm thinking you just learned a very expensive lesson.


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## Tallulah

Because I had indeed paid for him. At least if I took him with me, I had something for the money paid and I was not dealing with the barn manager but a stand-in. If I left without the horse, or my money, which they were not going to give me then. I would have been leaving empty handed then trying to wrangle a refund. If I have no standing for my stupidity of not having his height checked by an outside source since the farm could not be trusted to accurately represent the animal, then I would have to go back and get the horse and I'm sure they would tack on all kinds of costs for board, etc., etc. At least I had control over the horse. And it's not libel if it's true.


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## cowgirl4753

I agree with the above post. Some people are terrible when it comes to figuring out a horse's height. This was something you noticed off the start. I understand you drove a long way to pick him up but if it was something that you feel this strongly about ibwould have demanded to speak with the owner no matter where they were and have sorted this out before you loaded him up and took him home.
Yes they could have been nicer about it and allowed you to get a refund but standing in their shoes I would have a hard time allowing a horse that left my barn travelled across the country and now they want to return him? What happened to him? What issues will he have now? You took him knowing he wasn't as tall as stated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tallulah

There was no sales/purchase contract and I suspect you are right but wanted to ask.


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## faye

You didnt see the horse, you didnt have it vetted. Its therefore your fault and your loss.

I'd want to know what sort of back yard breeding establishment you are running that you wouldnt have a PPE and that a small difference in height is the biggest thing you can find to worry about. 
Soundness of breeding horses is of utmost importance unless they are unsound through injury (which a PPE would pick up). If you do not care about sound horses then how on earth are you going to breed sound stock
How do you know that the horse hasnt got an infectious disease, how do you know he isnt a rig (rigs can still sire foals), how do you know that he hasnt got some disfigurement that clever camera angles has disguised or degenerative joint disorder.
If anything a PPE for breeding stock is just as essential as for ridden stock!


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## Golden Horse

Tallulah said:


> No, I did not have a vet check done as I was primarily interested in the horse as a breeding animal so soundness wasn't a huge issue.-----------
> 
> . I do not yet have the horse's registration papers which were promised to me. They are "in process".


Mmmmm Hello and welcome to the forum.....I think.

Nothing here sounds quite right, if you are buying a breeding animal, then health is a huge issue, and congenital unsoundness should be, why would you not have a PPE done?

If height is such an issue for you I really don't understand why you loaded the horse and took it, and why you left without the papers.

I don't get why not being up to height halves his value.


WHy did you pay in full before actually picking him up?


I'm sorry OP, I'm struggling with this one big time, if you are not a troll, then you are a genuine and somewhat naive person, so I'm not sure that breeding is your best way forward.

I have no idea where you stand in law, you accepted the horse even though you had a chance to inspect him before loading, so you may have been deemed as accepting him


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## faye

Oh and height measurement is notoriously innacurate, you'll have a job proving the horse is under height unless you have a fully calibrated measuring stick, measuring pad and independant vet to measure him. My lad measures 15.2hh at home, but on a vets official pad he measures just short of 15hh.


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## Tallulah

No, not a troll. But as a horse owner, I can honestly say I have NEVER misrepresented a horse I was selling and would gladly take the horse back and issue a refund if somehow there was ever this type of misunderstanding, omission or miscommunication. But hey, maybe that's just me and I becoming pretty certain that I am in the minority in the horse industry.


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## JustDressageIt

faye said:


> You didnt see the horse, you didnt have it vetted. Its therefore your fault and your loss.
> 
> I'd want to know what sort of back yard breeding establishment you are running that you wouldnt have a PPE and that a small difference in height is the biggest thing you can find to worry about.
> Soundness of breeding horses is of utmost importance unless they are unsound through injury (which a PPE would pick up). If you do not care about sound horses then how on earth are you going to breed sound stock
> How do you know that the horse hasnt got an infectious disease, how do you know he isnt a rig (rigs can still sire foals), how do you know that he hasnt got some disfigurement that clever camera angles has disguised or degenerative joint disorder.
> If anything a PPE for breeding stock is just as essential as for ridden stock!


Good post. Especially the last line. 

Horses' height is one of those notoriously difficult things to advertise and get right. I've known many, many "16+hh" horses that really measure at 15-15.2. Height should never be taken as advertised, and if it's important to you, verified before money exchanges hands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tallulah

JustDressageIt said:


> Horses' height is one of those notoriously difficult things to advertise and get right. I've known many, many "16+hh" horses that really measure at 15-15.2. Height should never be taken as advertised, and if it's important to you, verified before money exchanges hands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. More fool me. But I still think it is wrong for a seller to do.


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## Golden Horse

Tallulah said:


> No, not a troll. But as a horse owner, I can honestly say I have NEVER misrepresented a horse I was selling and would gladly take the horse back and issue a refund if somehow there was ever this type of misunderstanding, omission or miscommunication. But hey, maybe that's just me and I becoming pretty certain that I am in the minority in the horse industry.


OK, but as a seller, there is no way I would refund someone if they had picked up a horse, taken it away and then complained later about its height, just makes no sense.


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## Speed Racer

No, you're not in the minority, but there most certainly are people out there who will take advantage of someone who buys a breeding animal with no PPE and sight unseen. You set yourself up to be taken. While I don't agree with someone trying to cheat you, you didn't do yourself any favors by going blindly into this transaction without any personal recourse. You're at the very least naive.

Plus, why would you even_ consider_ purchasing an animal for breeding without getting a health check first? Breeding animals need to be in the best of health, so you stating you don't CARE about his health but do about his height simply amazes me. Your priorities appear to be severely skewed.


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## Golden Horse

Tallulah said:


> There was no sales/purchase contract and I suspect you are right but wanted to ask.



:shock: You are buying a high dollar animal for breeding (because no one buys a low dollar one to breed right) and you have no contract?


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## faye

Talluhlah, How do you know that on thier uncalibrated stick that the horse doesnt measure 15.3hh, how do you garentee that your stick is the correct one? 
have you had it officialy calibrated each year, do you maintain your calibration certificates, has your measuring area been calibrated and is completely level?

Was the horse relaxed when you measured it but not relaxed when they measured it? a horse gets bigger if it is excited.
Is the horse in the same condition now as it was when they measured it (again fat can ad height), are you measuring at the correct spot and did they meassure at the correct spot? Was the horse dehydrated after a long journey when you stuck a stick on it (dehydration is a well known way to reduce a horses height).

I show horses in height classes where being 0.1cm over height can destroy a horses showing career entirely. My knowlege of measuring, what effects it is very large, however it is obvious that either you or the seller does not have the same knowlege.


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## Plains Drifter

Dumb question, I'm sure...but if HEIGHT is the only issues. If he's sound or has the conformation your looking for, why not just breed to larger mares? Also, his height doesn't mean his offspring will be his size. I have a couple of mares who are out of the same sire (different mares) and are different sizes. 

I guess since I like smaller horses, I'm confused why just a few inches is the end of the world and you'd want to take him back. It's not like they said he was 15.3 and he was only a 13 h pony.


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## texasgal

faye said:


> I'd want to know what sort of back yard breeding establishment you are running .....


Wow. Preachy much? ... lol.

There are nicer ways to say things... imo.


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## Shoebox

It's as most of these other posters have been saying. You're probably SOL. You prepaid for the horse without ever seeing it, got there and realized it was shorter, and still took it home, only to call and complain later. As Faye said, a ton of things can affect measuring a horse - you have no way of telling that when they measured the horse how tall it is. And I don't honestly think three inches is going to cut his value in half.

And why on earth would you say that soundness doesn't matter if you're breeding?! Of course it matters! If the horse isn't sound, you're not going to breed sound foals. That's just irresponsibility in my eyes. It sounds like you went blindly into this purchase, didn't check it out first, didn't get a PPE, brought it home anyways and now you have an issue. I don't think you have much grounds here. Yes, it sucks, and I'm sorry it happened - just take it as a learning experience.


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## mls

Tallulah said:


> No, not a troll. But as a horse owner, I can honestly say I have NEVER misrepresented a horse I was selling and would gladly take the horse back and issue a refund if somehow there was ever this type of misunderstanding, omission or miscommunication. But hey, maybe that's just me and I becoming pretty certain that I am in the minority in the horse industry.


Again - you took the horse with you. Had you waited until the 'barn manager' or whomever you had been communicating with was able to discuss the issue with you in person, you might have had things straightened out.

Horse height is a matter of where the person places the tape/stick and how the horse is standing.

I hardly think 15 hands is a midget.


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## WickedNag

It amazes me when people can be so far off on a horse. You know how tall you are..put it in hands I stand 15.3 and know where a horses wither is compared to my eye level. I am pretty dang accurate. Why horse people tend to guess high is beyond me but a 16hh horse is a big horse. .

My daughter in law was looking at a horse she wanted at least 16hh we got there and I told her that horse was not even 15.2 she said I sticked it.. Told her she better learn how to use the stick and asked if she could see my head over the top of the wither. She said yes about 3" if it  Well at 15.3 that horse was about 15.1  She redid her ad lol

I would not have loaded the horse but I would not have paid for it in full till I had seen it either. Than I could have walked away just putting my deposit at risk.


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## faye

wickednag you do realise that your height can vary by up to an inch dependant on what time of the day it is
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Tallulah said:


> No, not a troll. But as a horse owner, I can honestly say I have NEVER misrepresented a horse I was selling and would gladly take the horse back and issue a refund if somehow there was ever this type of misunderstanding, omission or miscommunication. But hey, maybe that's just me and I becoming pretty certain that I am in the minority in the horse industry.


I have had buyers tell me that I'm too honest when I sell a horse. I will tell you every single thing it ever did wrong, right or so so, every physical imperfection I even think it has and if there are any known genetic issues with its lines. Especially with Arabians, my chosen breed, there are notorious measurement issues, we even say, "Was he measured with a regular stick or an Arabian Stick?" because they are notoriously 4 inches shorter than stated height. 

I have a mare who sticks 15.2 and EVERYONE who sees her swears she's 16.3 because she's so solid and substantial and nobody believes me when I say nope, she's 15.2. 

So even when you're honest, people get fooled depending on the horse. 

You have a few, "I would nevers" in your little adventure. 

These are my buyer's I would nevers:

#1 I would never prepay for a horse I'd never seen.
#2 I would never do a sale without a contract
#3 I would never take a horse home that I had doubts about on pick up
#4 I never buy an animal without a PPE

These are my seller's I would nevers:

#1 I would never sell a horse without a contract
#2 I would never let a horse leave the property if the buyer expressed doubts
#3 I would not take the horse back once it had left the property, unless I had expressly agreed to in writing. 
#4 I never put a firm height in an ad, I let the buyer measure for themselves when they arrive. So, horse is about 15.2, I put "over 15 hands" in the ad.

In my contracts, I even have a PPE clause. It says something like, 

"Buyer has beed advised to have a pre-purchase exam done by his/her choice of vet. Buyer has _____ scheduled the exam with XXXX vet on XXXXXX date or _______ Buyer has declined to have a pre-purchase exam done and understand the horse is sold as is, where is, with no guarantee of soundness, ridability or breedability once the animal leaves these premises. Buyer acknowleges that there will be no returns or refunds for any reason. 

____________________________________
Buyer's Sig & Date

____________________________________
Seller's Sig & Date"

I have the buyer initial in their own writing by the appropriate sentence and then sign and date that clause in addition to signing the contract as a whole.


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## WickedNag

faye said:


> wickednag you do realise that your height can vary by up to an inch dependant on what time of the day it is
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Being an inch off a horse is much closer than three inches off  and No, in my 56 years of living I have ever been told that before. I do realize that I can spell realize and dependent correctly though


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## faye

realise is spelt with an S in the UK just like colour is spelt with a "U" over here and without in the US, so commenting about my spelling just shows how uneducated you are.

You measure shorter at the end of the day due to compression of the joints in the ankle, knee and spine.


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## WickedNag

faye said:


> realise is spelt with an S in the UK just like colour is spelt with a "U" over here and without in the US, so commenting about my spelling just shows how uneducated you are.
> 
> You measure shorter at the end of the day due to compression of the joints in the ankle, knee and spine.


And do you spell DEPENDENT and SPELT differently too  or are you just a tad under educated? maybe just lacking manners? I have never measured shorter at the end of the day. I guess I haven't suffered from joint compression yet  I was having fun with you over the spelling my dear hence the little wink symbol. No need to get ugly 


Have a good day Faye!


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## nikelodeon79

Pointing out spelling mistakes is really only "fun" for the person pointing them out. Being the butt end of someone's "joke" isn't fun.... even if there's a smiley involved.  

As to the OP, I agree that they're pretty much SOL. Live and learn... get a PPE on ALL purchases, always meet a horse before all the money changes hands, and don't haul away what you don't want.


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## WickedNag

faye said:


> Talluhlah, How do you know that on thier uncalibrated stick that the horse doesnt measure 15.3hh, how do you garentee that your stick is the correct one?
> have you had it officialy calibrated each year, do you maintain your calibration certificates, has your measuring area been calibrated and is completely level?
> 
> Was the horse relaxed when you measured it but not relaxed when they measured it? a horse gets bigger if it is excited.
> Is the horse in the same condition now as it was when they measured it (again fat can ad height), are you measuring at the correct spot and did they meassure at the correct spot? Was the horse dehydrated after a long journey when you stuck a stick on it (dehydration is a well known way to reduce a horses height).
> 
> I show horses in height classes where being 0.1cm over height can destroy a horses showing career entirely. My knowlege of measuring, what effects it is very large, however it is obvious that either you or the seller does not have the same knowlege.


Faye
Off a 0.1 cm is a lot different than 3" or 7.6 cm. I agree with you there can be a variance but to that extend is to big of a discrepancy. 

I would have never loaded the horse if the height were that big of a factor. JMHO!


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## Golden Horse

WickedNag said:


> And do you spell DEPENDENT and SPELT differently too  !



Spelt is spelt correctly in the UK, and spelled incorrectly over here, just saying.

You do shrink through the day, and also over the years, I was totally horrified to find that my 5' 9" 55 year old body measured in at a tad under 5' 8" when I was measured in hospital for my recent OP, :shock:


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## faye

wicked nag: 
1) you are the one that broght spelling into it - incredibly uncouth and uncalled for. 
2) what exactly do you think is wrong with the spelling of Spelt?

3) I happen to be dyslexic so I do not find anything funny about making cracks about my spelling. You and people like you are the reason that I have had several good friends attempt suicide whilst still small children.


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## jaydee

I dont see how this thread plummetted to the depths of arguing over spelling mistakes - sorry but that is just petty IMO
I often have way more letters in a word than intended and miss letters out or put the wrong ones in - so shoot me please
The OP knows she messed up, she doesn't need telling
Our Irish Draft is as high on her butt and as long as our warmblood but she is 3 inches smaller because she has low withers and the warmblood has quite high ones
Taking it home was not the right thing to do but if the sellers were licenced dealers then they should be covered by some sort of trades descriptions act that means if they advertise a horse as something then thats what it should be, which includes the height
OP needs to see a legal person who has experience in this sort of thing
Apologise for any spelling errors and differences in UK to US translation - also for being sarcastic


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## faye

Wickednag - i could tell you 5 regularly used tricks that can make a horse measure 3 inches smaller then it actualy is. None of them are pleasent for the horse, some of them are downright cruel.

We have official measuring over here and you can have a horse recalled for measuring if you are willing to put up the money. it is amazing how much bigger horses are mid show season as opposed to in january when they are unfit, skeletal, have been lunged into the ground, had their feet hacked back so that they are lame and then buted up to hide it, oh and lets not forget the sedatives and withdrawl of water for 24hrs.
I think the record is well over a hand different when a horse has been objected to and recalled for measurement


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## WickedNag

Well it certainly did take a wrong turn. I was seriously joking with her when she asked if I realized I shrunk an inch every day and I asked if she realized she misspelled a word. 

I better take leave of this thread. Again... I will state... know your own height in hands and you will better be able to guess the height of a horse much more accurately. I don't think anyone should be off on their horse's height by 3" or 7.6 cms.

Faye, I know of the tricks that people use to get the height of a horse. My best friend shows mini horses at a national level and those that want those minis short do lots of drastic things to keep them under 34". It is very sad. I don't think the horse advertised at 15.3 was a horse that would be subjected to that. My whole point of this thread was that I would never have loaded this horse if I was that worried about the height and I think 3" is to much to be off in advertising. 

Have a great day. I seriously didn't mean to offend you....


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## jaydee

Broadmoor Equestrian, Broadmoor Farms

Check out the terms of purchasing and 'holding' a horse on deposit from this company - as it looks to me as if they insist on a PPE before they agree to hold a horse so in this OP's case they either broke their own rules or something is not 'right' here


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Unless the horse was sold by a private party and was boarded here, I have a hard time believing they would do a sale without a contract. 'Nuther one of those little things in life that make you go......"HUMMMMMMMMMM".


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## Speed Racer

Yep DA, I don't think we're getting the whole story here. :think:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Speed Racer said:


> Yep DA, I don't think we're getting the whole story here. :think:


 
LOL, yep, startin' to fail the sniff test! :mrgreen:


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## Allison Finch

Everyone knows I am a cop. BUT, did you know....





















OK, it has all been dealt with!! Now, kindly carry on with the topic at hand......


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## TimberRidgeRanch

**** FINCH

Okay heres my 2 cents worth

No contract no case period. and to me 3 inches is no big deal still hurts when you hit the ground. Maybe he would make a nice sire for sport ponies which by the way bring some really good money.
I highly doubt a well reputable stable as mention ed would be lazy in their sales and contracts. 
and my god knock it off with sue happy people thats the reason insurance keeps sky rocketing everyone is out for a quick buck. 

If he is healthy and sound good. 3 inches no big deal now if it was a minature then maybe worth getting panties in a wad JMHO

TRR


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## peppersgirl

When I worked at a training barn, a paint stud came in. The people who had him bought him sight unseen from florida and had him shipped straight to this barn for training in nebraska. They FINALLY came to see this horse for the first time a few weeks in when the horse was showing signs of lameness (ended up being navicular cysts)..... Now Im assuming they didnt have a PPE done on him other wise the NC's would've been seen and either dealt with /or they would have not purchased him.... And apparently he was not near as tall as was advertised and he had a huge head (camera angles hid that apparently- sweet sweet boy but NOT breeding quality. These people had no recourse. SOOO my guess is you don't either..

If it were me, I would NOT have sent them the whole amount period...if they push for that BS (being as the horse was unseen) than that makes me want to back away from the horse in question. Also I would have made sure that whom ever was in charge of that sale was there to answer questions ect when I went to pick that horse up. Also, SORRY but I cant help but question your breeding practices/ knowlege, when your willing to forgo a PPE on a horse that plan on using for breeding. Its one thing to be unsound due to injury or early sickness,Its entirely different to be unsound due to some wacked out conformation...this is something you find out in a PPE/ also a breeding soundness exam is a must..horses can carry some icky things!!


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## Golden Horse

TimberRidgeRanch said:


> **** FINCH
> 
> to me 3 inches is no big deal


Is desperately trying not to laugh,



and failing



:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Depends which 3" you are talking about


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## Silent one

Golden Horse said:


> Is desperately trying not to laugh,
> 
> 
> 
> and failing
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Depends which 3" you are talking about


Oh my word! Hahahaha!


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## stevenson

I have a few concerns here. You are more concerned about height than soundness in a horse to be used for breeding . You took home a horse with no papers . you pain in advance, you did not do a prepurchse exam. You spoke to previous owners and never questioned his height (your main concern) 
i think you priorities for a stallion are skewed, and should have the horse gelded.


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## Jewelsb

Just re sell him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TimberRidgeRanch

:think: okay maybe 3" on some things is a big deal ****:wink:


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## jaydee

Golden Horse said:


> Is desperately trying not to laugh,
> 
> 
> 
> and failing
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Depends which 3" you are talking about


 Golden Horse I am shocked with your way of thinking !!!!


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## Golden Horse

jaydee said:


> Golden Horse I am shocked with your way of thinking !!!!


If you are shocked at what makes it out of my head into sharing territory, you, like me, would be medicated if you knew what I am actually thinking most of the time!😄
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tianimalz

Golden Horse said:


> If you are shocked at what makes it out of my head into sharing territory, you, like me, would be medicated if you knew what I am actually thinking most of the time!😄
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl: Sometimes I wonder why we aren't friends, I love the way you think.


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## Corporal

Golden Horse said:


> Is desperately trying not to laugh,
> 
> 
> 
> and failing
> 
> 
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Depends which 3" you are talking about


Oh, YOU!!!!! =b


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## wetrain17

The OP seems to not have received the answers he/she liked or was looking for and is no longer responding.


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## DimSum

Silent one said:


> Oh my word! Hahahaha!


My mind smoothly slipped into the gutter when I read that :lol:
Come on in, the water's fine!


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## ShannonSevenfold

You DO shrink throughout each day whether you notice or not. I frequently will get into my car at the end of the day and realize my mirrors all need to be adjusted.

OP- You're SOL. Sorry.


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## Spotted

You could ask for some money back, because he wasn't what he was said to be. Anyone with a buisness, would try and make it right. Otherwise bad words can make a buisness go down hill very fast.
the worst they can say is no..


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## Golden Horse

Spotted said:


> You could ask for some money back, because he wasn't what he was said to be. Anyone with a buisness, would try and make it right. Otherwise bad words can make a buisness go down hill very fast.
> the worst they can say is no..


While I agree the customer is always right, it's not like the horse shrunk on the journey home, the buyer accepted the horse on the visual check, so I wouldn't be refunding, especially as the horse had left the premises.

Seeing as in this case the horse was bought sight unseen and without contract, the original owner would then be agreeing to buyback, and personally I would want to carry out a PPE, and assess the horse before buying it back, who knows the real reason why the buyer now has remorse.


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## Copperhead

Specific height never mattered to me. If I saw a horse and it looked about the height I would be comfortable on, I'd buy it.

Horses come in 3 different confirmed heights for me:
Small
Medium
Large

Thats about as accurate as you're going to get. The numbers (14hh, 15hh, 16hh) are based on what the horse averages out. The specific inches are just details, in my opinion. But of course, I don't show in height classes. If a horse's wither came up to my collarbone or under, it was short. From collarbone to forehead level was medium. Above my head, tall.

Of course, I did do some advertising and sales at a barn this past year where the height had to be put in the ad. I would use phrases like "About 15.2 hands" or "approximately 13.1 hands". We would measure the horse, use what we measured as a guideline in the ads, and have our stick ready for the buyers who came in to look at the horse. If they wanted to measure the horse themselves, we would allow it.

But heigts and opinions on heights change depending on whether the rain falls over the plains in Spain, so I always took a horse's "official" height with a grain of salt.


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## HorseMom1025

I've never measured our horse, but her height on her coggins is 15.2. Someone at the barn with a horse about 2 inches taller told me his horse was listed as 15.2. *shrug*. It doesn't really matter to us...but someday I really should measure her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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