# Appaloosa experts please help!!



## Chloezhorseys (Jul 21, 2012)

Hey guys i have been researching LP and appaloosa patterns and i was wondering because i cant find it anywhere online. 
I have a bay varnish roan appy mare. And i want a leopard or few spot baby. Where i live there are only two appy studs in the whole country one is a black and white leopard and the other a chocolate blanket. I have heard of other people breeding two quarter horses and other breeds to get the few spot because you need to mix a LP/ LP with a PATN 1 to get a leopard baby. Are either of those studs useable ? Or should i breed with another breed of horse. Also i would perfer black and white leopard if it is possible please tell me what kind/ color of stallion i would need to use to achieve that. Thank you


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Appy patterns are near impossible to predict, and having a varnish roan appy mare means you will also be dealing with every pattern she may or may not throw. If you want a guarantee on a particular color when it comes to appy patterns, you are better off buying it on the ground


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## Roux (Aug 23, 2013)

I don't know the answer to the OP's questions but it looks like he/she is in Costa Rica. It may not be possible for them to find the horse she is looking for "on the ground." OP said there are only two studs available so finding a horse may not be as easy as it is in the US.


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## Chloezhorseys (Jul 21, 2012)

Roux said:


> I don't know the answer to the OP's questions but it looks like he/she is in Costa Rica. It may not be possible for them to find the horse she is looking for "on the ground." OP said there are only two studs available so finding a horse may not be as easy as it is in the US.


Exactly my dilema Roux there arent any for sale in the country. The foal doesnt have to be a specific color but i was reading about varnish roan and it said their was a chance of them throwing few spots or leopard. I am asking for advice from anyone who has bred a similar combination before or knows more about the genetics then i


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## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

Well from what I understand a snowcap or few spot will throw colour. It also depends what the mares original patter was before she varnished I think. Appies are so tricky to breed for something specific.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I suggest dancing around a fire late at night, while chanting "leopard spots, leopard spots". Then spike her feed with a mystical herb found only in the tallest trees of the eastern jungle...

seriously though, appy genetics are a major gamble. My filly is a varnish roan with little white, out of a loudly blanketed stud with four white stockings and a blaze, and a solid bay mare.

My bo once had a mare that had three foals, out of a black few spot stud. she was chestnut varnish, no spots. First was solid chestnut, second was loud chestnut leopard, third was black varnish with a blanket.

I suggest finding a stud you really, really like, regardless of color, and breed for a baby with the conformation and temperament you want. that way, if she throws color you will be pleasantly surprised, if not, you will have a well built, good minded saddle horse.


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

If you looking for a gaurantee few spot you could 1) import. Likely going to be cheaper then breeding with less risk and a color gaurantee. Or 2) get in touch with a breeder and let them know exactly what your looking for. They can either find it or let you know when they have one. 

Good luck to you!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

> I have a bay varnish roan appy mare. And I want a leopard or few spot baby. Where I live there are only two appy studs in the whole country one is a black and white leopard and the other a chocolate blanket


Firstly you have to work out whether your bay varnish roan mare can produce a black foal.
If she is AAEE she will only produce bay.
AaEe - she can produce bay, black & chestnut.
AAEe - she can produce bay & chestnut.
AaEE - she can produce Bay and Black.
Secondly NEVER breed a varnish roan mare to a fewspot stallion, because generally the fewspot stallion will act like a mirror and reproduce the mares colour and pattern. Your mare is not exhibiting PATN-1, so you need to breed to stallion carrying PATN-1, which would be a leopard.
Your best bet for a leopard foal from a varnish roan mare is to breed to a leopard stallion.
Remember that mares carry the strongest colour suppression genes and especially black mares, which believe it or not is the absence of colour. A bay mare is a black mare carrying one or two copies of Agouti.
Good luck with your breeding, as I bred Appies for years and it can be a goldmine when it comes to colour.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Something else you want to think about is night blindness that is associated with LP. There is never a guarantee on color or expression in appy genetics. Even a loud leopard appy can be washed out by varnish roan in later years. If you want a leopard appy, buying one (even if you have to import) is the only way to get what you want. Otherwise, just breed for conformation, movement, temprament and complimentary to your mare's strengths and weaknesses regardless of his color genetics as your stud selection is limited ;-)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as producing a leopard baby, breeding a few spot to a solid colored mare, is your best bet.
Roan gene and greying gene destroy Appaloosa coat patterns, so if you want a leopard that does not fade, avoid the roaning gene
I bred my solid black Appaloosa mare a few times to the champion working cowhorse, a few spot, High Sign Nugget, and got leopards
A filly, Cola's Neon Sign, became an ApHC World champion reining horse, and a full brother, also a leopard was shown successfully in Alberta, including in the Battle of the breeds , at Spruce Meadows
High Sign Nugget produced loud leopards and blanketed offspring when crossed out to AQHA mares and solid App mares
Bottom line, i would not pick a horse with the roaning gene, if I wished to produce a horse where coat pattern contrast was not lost over time
Here is Candy Cola with her foal by the few Spot, High Sign nugget

colt, out of Candy Cola and High Sign Nugget





(Candy Cola was not homozygous for black, as her sire, Me Gold Two was a palomino with a blanket )

Just want to add, I always bred for ability in whatever discipline I was aiming towards, and color just be the 'icing'
Thus, besides color, what are you selecting for?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is the link to Thunder struck Ranch
You can see some of the results of High Sign Nugget, bred to various mares. 
High Sign Nugget is now gone, but his legacy lives on
Thunderstruck Ranch


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

> Roan gene and greying gene destroy Appaloosa coat patterns, so if you want a leopard that does not fade, avoid the roaning gene


The roaning gene cannot be avoided. LP is the necessary gene to have to be recognised as Appaloosa by colour. PATN determines leopards and blankets. A fewspot has a nose to toes blanket. A roan appaloosa just has LP and no Pattern genes.


> Something else you want to think about is night blindness that is associated with LP


When an Appaloosa gets two copies of LP, such as a fewspot, a snowcap or a homozygous roan, they will be nightblind. These horses have lived with this for thousands of years and get along just fine most of the time. For more info see
Appaloosa coat patterns, coat color genetics, DNA tests for the LP and PATN1 gene and practical information for breeders of spotted horses - The Appaloosa Project
This will give you the best information on Appaloosa genetics.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Shawin said:


> The roaning gene cannot be avoided. LP is the necessary gene to have to be recognised as Appaloosa by colour. PATN determines leopards and blankets. A fewspot has a nose to toes blanket. A roan appaloosa just has LP and no Pattern genes.
> 
> When an Appaloosa gets two copies of LP, such as a fewspot, a snowcap or a homozygous roan, they will be nightblind. These horses have lived with this for thousands of years and get along just fine most of the time. For more info see
> Appaloosa coat patterns, coat color genetics, DNA tests for the LP and PATN1 gene and practical information for breeders of spotted horses - The Appaloosa Project
> This will give you the best information on Appaloosa genetics.


The roan gene can be avoided, as my blanketed 30 year old reining mare is a testimony to that
She is by our first stallion, a true snowcap and out of a solid AQHA bred reining mare. She is the exact same color she was as a foal, at age 30-no roaning.
Yes,App roaning is associated with the LP complex.
Far as night blind horses (CSNB ) , yes, since they are born that way, they adjust very well, in familiar pastures, BUT, if you have ever been caught after dark, riding out some tricky trail in the mountains, as I have, on a horse with CSNB, it does matter
Also, if you have pastures with woods, with trees coming down at times, it matters. Way before I knew of CSNB, I used to think Einstein was just a clumsey two year old, as he always seemed to get nicks and cuts over night
Ever run a reining pattern, where you enter from bright outside, to the dim lighting of an area, on a horse with CSNB?
Had a mare, not knowing her foal was night blind, and not respond to that foal waking up at night, frantically calling for a dam he can not see, with that mare just assuming h can find her, if she answers him once or so?
A bear got up close to Einstein one night, as he, unlike the other horses, could not see him


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## Shawin (Aug 30, 2015)

*Appaloosa Experts please help!!*



Smilie said:


> The roan gene can be avoided, as my blanketed 30 year old reining mare is a testimony to that
> She is by our first stallion, a true snowcap and out of a solid AQHA bred reining mare. She is the exact same color she was as a foal, at age 30-no roaning.
> Yes,App roaning is associated with the LP complex.
> Far as night blind horses (CSNB ) , yes, since they are born that way, they adjust very well, in familiar pastures, BUT, if you have ever been caught after dark, riding out some tricky trail in the mountains, as I have, on a horse with CSNB, it does matter
> ...


I agree that the roan gene can be avoided sometimes with some outcrossing and with true leopard to leopard breeding, but LP does cause the roaning and what I was trying to say is you don't have a readily identifiable appaloosa without LP, and you can't control how LP is expressed. I know I didn't explain myself properly....sorry.
I can identify with what you are saying about CSNB. I never said it didn't matter, just that the horses have amazing memories for their familiar pastures. Yes I too, have been caught out like you, with low branches on trees, CSNB foals and mothers who cannot see at night and night riding. I found using a cow-bell helps the CSNB foals and their mothers. They learn to listen for it.
We are lucky here in New Zealand as we don't have bears, wolves or the big cats, so no predators for our horses.


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