# What Color/Patterns Does She Have?



## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

Let's have some fun and get some opinions on what color and patterns you see in this mare.

Palomino or sorrel? She is almost more golden then reddish,with a lighter mane and a darker tail.

Roan or sabino? She has white hairs mixed all through her color.

She has the frame overo pattern along with the 'Medicine Hat' head markings and chest shield,inherited from her 'Medicine Hat' sire. Do you see any other color pattern,such as the already mentioned sabino,or tobiano,ect.?


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Usually they're not referred to as medicine hats when they cover that much of the face. She looks palomino to me, definitely frame overo, and I can see the sabino. Sabino is what causes the roaning in paints, so it's basically the same except the sabino only effects certain areas and not the entire body like roaning does.


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## WyomingSissy (Apr 11, 2012)

there's a chance she could be palomino, but going off the pictures i vote sorrel, or chestnut. its my understanding that sorrel has more red tones than chestnut, which is more gold tones. so chestnut. she probably has sabino also if it looks like she's roaning. it might end up that she has all three overo lines. my girl has sabino and frame. her older sis has those as well as splash.

Karma and Cali. and they both have a white spot on their cinch area on their bellies


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Frame splash and sabino. On a red base, so chestnut or sorrel, depending on where you live and what you do with her lol.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

Kayella said:


> Usually they're not referred to as medicine hats when they cover that much of the face. She looks palomino to me, definitely frame overo, and I can see the sabino. Sabino is what causes the roaning in paints, so it's basically the same except the sabino only effects certain areas and not the entire body like roaning does.



The Medicine Hat definition (from doing some research and speaking to someone who studies, and is somewhat of an expert in, Native American culture and who has studied the mythology of the Medicine Hat and War Bonnet horse) is that the ears and poll must be colored,but that color is to be surrounded by white on the face and neck,it can't connect under the chin or to any color on the neck (it almost does on her,but is separated by a thin strip of white). The most prized Medicine Hats had very little or no color anywhere else,although it was not unusual to have a chest shield,color in their flanks, or color down their backs or around their eyes. Their noses were usually pink, and the ones with blue eyes were considered especially powerful.
When I first saw her,Medicine Hat didn't cross my mind at all,until the lady who studies this type of thing saw her and was commenting on her Medicine Hat markings. I learned some stuff that day.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Frame splash and sabino. On a red base, so chestnut or sorrel, depending on where you live and what you do with her lol.


I don't know much about splash,what makes you think she has it?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The way the white covers her mouth and tries to get onto her eyes. Splash likes white over these parts, sabino and frame most definitely do not. Also the way the white comes around her face and back up under her chin, and is so bottom heavy.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

she is a Flaxen Sorrel, with Sabino, and frame, and overo, however she isn't a Medicine Hat, in order to be a medicine hat she has to have colored ears and a completely white head other then that, or at least thats my understanding of the term.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

IMO she isn't a medicine hat. She has too much color on her head for that. It comes too far down her face.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

What I know in regards to the Medicine Hat markings is what I have read and what I was told by someone who studies Native American culture and the Medicine Hat/ War Bonnet horse mythology,as I mentioned above.The most prized Medicine Hats (these are the ones that most people think of when they hear Medicine Hat,and what I always thought of,until I looked into it more) were mostly white with the "hat" markings on their polls and ears,and usually blue eyes,but as long as the markings fall in the guide lines I mentioned above,apparently it can still be considered Medicine Hat markings.  There isn't any official description that I could find in the APHA registery as to what the guidlines are for MHs,but when I checked different encyclopedias,the common thing seemed to be that the ears and poll at least must be colored,but that color must be surrounded by white and not connect to any other color on the neck or under the chin,ect. It must be a stand alone area of color,if that makes any sense.. But I do agree that the Medicine Hat horse,as we generally think of them,is mostly white with just the little hat,although if you search images of them,there is quite a variation of other markings.It's one of those markings that,as I said,doesn't have an 'official' description.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

All i know about the medicine hat is that it has to cover both ears but stays at the top of the head and doesn't connect to anything that runs down the neck or head. It also cannot touch the eyes


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

I hadn't heard/read that it couldn't touch the eyes,something else to add to the mix! 
It's one of those marking definitions that is hard to pin down specifically,as it doesn't seem to have an 'official' description. And there seems to be such a range in opinion as to what the guidlines for the markings are.I had heard that at one point in time there had been a registery for MHs,but could not find it,which is too bad,because I'm really curious about the MHs now.
Some examples of the variations on what is labeled as a Medicine Hat:

























































So,as you can tell,there's quite the variety!  The common factor I see though is that the 'hat' marking,what ever size it may be,doesn't appear to connect to color elsewhere.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

This is Chica's sire,also labelled as Medicine Hat.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Second one and last one you posted are not medicine hats. I know they pop up in google search for "medicine hat" but they are mislabeled.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Second one and last one you posted are not medicine hats. I know they pop up in google search for "medicine hat" but they are mislabeled.


And therein lies the tricky part;how to know which ones are and aren't.as the term is so loosely used. In my opinion,I wouldn't call those two in the post with all the pics MH,but once again,since there is no exact guidelines to the definition/boundaries of the 'hat',how do we know for sure what is/isn't a MH There's so many opinions out there..Like with this mare I got,according to some articles,she wouldn't be because the color extends below her poll,but yet other articles would say she is because the 'hat' or in her case,more like a tuque,lol,does not connect to any other body color,it is allowed drift into the eye,she has the pink nose,color down her back,chest shield,and so on.And then I get someone who actually studies this stuff telling me she is,so you can see how this can be confusing. Then you go to these museums that have pictures of Native Americans sitting on horse with more of a mask then a 'hat',and they call it the Medicine Hat horse,ah!The Paint and pinto registeries need to come up with an exact definition,then it would clear some things up. 

Anyways,I think most of us can at least agree that she's sorrel with frame,overo,and splash.  Next question,is one of those patterns more dominant than the other;for example,if I bred her to a solid colored stud (no Paint/Pinto bloodlines) is the chance of getting one of those patterns in the baby higher than getting another?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No. She has a 50% chance of passing frame and at least 50% of passing sabino and at least 50% with splash, with any combination of those genes. (I say at least 50% with sabino and splash as those do have the ability of being homozygous unlike frame) Any stud you might breed her to *NEEDS *to be tested for frame regardless of lack of pinto/paint bloodlines or being solid.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> No. She has a 50% chance of passing frame and at least 50% of passing sabino and at least 50% with splash, with any combination of those genes. (I say at least 50% with sabino and splash as those do have the ability of being homozygous unlike frame) Any stud you might breed her to *NEEDS *to be tested for frame regardless of lack of pinto/paint bloodlines or being solid.


OK,thanks for explaining that. And yes,I will definitely make sure the stud is negative for frame!


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