# Blackberry brambles



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

My second farming question:

Our new place came with an electric golf cart, a commercial-grade mulching lawn mower, and a bush hog. It also came with at least one, if not two, acres of blackberries, which are aggressively growing into the pasture areas.

The previous owners seemed to have used the bush hog to cut down the brambles, and then tossed them back into the bramble patch (if you can call this yard-sized area a patch) to disappear. They have not disappeared. So now there is a blackberry patch that also has lots of dead brush in it. Said brush has terrible thorns, of course, and can't just be pulled out.

We don't live there now (we're renting it out) but will hopefully be in the area over summer. I'm trying to figure out how to push back those blackberry patches. We can go in with the bush hog, but it seems like this thing only cuts the brambles down, it doesn't mulch or anything. I'm wondering if we could do that, then run over them with the lawnmower and hope that it mulches them? Or should I buy one of those tree mulchers (a cheaper one, not commercial grade) and a pair of chain mail gloves (or whatever people use when dealing with big blackberry canes), cut it down with the bush hog, and then run it through the mulcher?

I know that the only way to permanently get rid of blackberries is either a nuclear bomb or going in there with earth moving equipment and taking all the earth down to eight feet or so. Neither of those options is really appealing to me, so I'm basically in the mindset that I just want to keep pushing it back a little at a time until we get there and hopefully get some goats.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Are they truly blackberry (later fruiting, arching canes, non hairy) or trailing vines ( early fruiting, grow along the ground and make mounds of interconnected vines, hairy stems -pr1ckly hairs plus thorns) which is dewberry? Closely related but not the same.


Goats can keep them in check.


Burn and till can be effective but the tilling needs to be frequent. A one time till just makes it worse. Improving fertility and raising PH in favor of your grasses lowers their ability to compete.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> Are they truly blackberry (later fruiting, arching canes, non hairy) or trailing vines ( early fruiting, grow along the ground and make mounds of interconnected vines, hairy stems -pr1ckly hairs plus thorns) which is dewberry? Closely related but not the same.
> 
> 
> Goats can keep them in check.


Himalayan blackberries, the ones with the high, large arching canes and monster thorns. There are other wild berry patches on the property, but this one is definitely blackberries.

I'm pretty set on getting goats once we move in (although I apparently need to find some that won't eat my horses' tails) and I do hope they will keep them in check at that point, but I need to clear as much of it as I can, now. And I'm pretty sure the goats won't eat the old dead canes.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Depending on size of the area then cutting the canes down and removing for burning. Pull (best) then/ or till up what remains and burn exposed roots. Lime and fertilize specifically to improve grass growth. You can either allow what is there grass wise or seed a mix. Frequent tillage will mean you have to reseed your grasses and takes longer to rid the area than tilling, burning then lightly fertilize to encourage top growth and again till and burn. Repeating this as long as you get growth recurring. Can take several months but is shorter term.


We allow growth on certain fence rows and try to encourage it as it keeps the animals from going into areas we don't want them. Think hedging fences. So it can be good. If the pasture is managed and animals are kept on it then they don't spread into that area en mass and you can easily take care of the infrequent, lone invader.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

Rent a herd of goats twice a year. Goats were frequently used in Oregon to clear large areas of blackberries along the highways. There were entrepreneurs who leased out their goat herds for this purpose. 

Also, keep a patch... nothing better than picking your own blackberries and making homemade cobblers, tarts, turnovers, crisps.... I miss that about Oregon!


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Cedar & Salty said:


> Rent a herd of goats twice a year. Goats were frequently used in Oregon to clear large areas of blackberries along the highways. There were entrepreneurs who leased out their goat herds for this purpose.
> 
> Also, keep a patch... nothing better than picking your own blackberries and making homemade cobblers, tarts, turnovers, crisps.... I miss that about Oregon!


We'll definitely be keeping a patch. Looking at the land, I think we need to keep probably half of it in blackberries, for erosion control, although I might bring someone out to evaluate that. I think that's where the bush hog is going to come in really handy -- just mow down a path through the blackberries, and suddenly you can get at all the ones that only the birds could get at before.

WRT renting goats, my concern is that the land is only partly fenced in and, due to the nature of the blackberries, it might be hard to put in fencing around the rest. My understanding is that goat rental places require fencing. Maybe they would put it up themselves, but I'm not sure how they'd get back there.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Goat rental companies bring their own electric netting and charger. That's to keep predators away as well as keep the goats in. If you don't weed-whack a path to set up portable fencing they will probably do that as well, but of course you will have to pay for that.

Bear in mind that goats only eat the leaves, not the vines. But they will reduce bramble patches to skeletons pretty quick. They will kill the vines eventually by keeping the leaves picked off, but that will take a few seasons. Helpful to go through and collect all the denuded canes after the goats go through once, then the goats can kill the returning ground sprouts more easily. Whatever you do, don't disc! Then you'll have them forever, as any piece of cane that touches the ground will root.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

If your bush hog is PTO, you can back it into the blackberries in the elevated position and mash the vines down while chopping them into small pieces. This makes it easier and easier to creep into the thicket. Then the goats will have easy access to the sprouts. Blackberries DO love a good "haircut" and will happily grow back. Blackberries will also take root wherever a live vine touches the ground.


If you're not averse to chemicals, we tried "Capstone" (Milestone) on the blackberries last year and that killed them deader'n a doorknob. There are no grazing restrictions whatever on it.


Blackberries will crush your fences to the ground in a few years if left unchecked. The berries are delicious, but are generally the bane of PNW groundkeeping.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

dogpatch said:


> If you're not averse to chemicals, we tried "Capstone" (Milestone) on the blackberries last year and that killed them deader'n a doorknob. There are no grazing restrictions whatever on it.
> 
> 
> Blackberries will crush your fences to the ground in a few years if left unchecked. The berries are delicious, but are generally the bane of PNW groundkeeping.



They are on my fences on the corner of my property....the huge berries though are so delicious.
A trade-off, for now... as long as they don't go crazy growing everywhere...

I may try that capstone on other vines {bitter grape things} that are destroying my fence in front of my home we can not get rid of...fast as we cut it down and back it returns...:frown_color:
Safe for domestic animals to be in contact with *dogpatch*???
:runninghorse2:...


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The scary thing about capstone is that it can be sprayed on pastures and hay fields.The grasses take up the chemical but are not effected. The animals can eat the hay or grass. But, this chemical is so persistent that urine and manures cannot be used in the compost pile or applied to areas where broad leaved (composted or manured) plants are grown as it is still effective enough to kill them.


Triclopyr concentrate applied to crowns after being cut is effective as it kills the crown and travels through the root system killing large portions of root that would resprout. Care has to be taken but it works. You could do the same with the capstone.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I'm personally not comfortable with the poison, plus despite what @dogpatch said, I have a hard time believing it will work. I remember when we had our apartment there, one day watching the owner go out and poison all of the blackberry plants that were growing up through the gravel parking lot. Then a couple days later he went out with this little flamethrower thing and burned them all down to the ground. Next week, they all popped right back up again.

I like having (non-horse-tail-eating) goats as a solution because we won't have to do a lot. It's true that they won't eat the actual canes -- we will need to clear and dispose of them -- but once we can start getting it knocked back a little, they can go in there and eat the shoots and leaves, and eventually at least keep it at bay. They can also hopefully eat the random shoots that pop up in the middle of the pastures from bird poop.
@QtrBel thanks for pointing out that I will need to actually seed something else to replace the blackberries, I don't know why but that didn't occur to me. And yes lime. The whole ten acres needs to be limed. I thought I had someone who would do it, but he backed out. At least I will try to lime and seed whatever we cut back this summer, if anything. As someone who lives in Texas, it's still hard for me to wrap my head around liming pastures -- our soil here pretty much **IS** lime.

I expect there will be burn restrictions in the summer when we go, so that won't be an option. I'm still thinking about the mulcher.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Sorry if I was not clear. My comment was more for @horselovinguy and her wild grape (which if they are bitter they likely are infected with bitter rot). Small area. Specific, limited, concise treatment and no animal coming in and eating. I don't care to use and avoid chemical use. That you can graze an animal on it and have it still work as intended when the animal urinates or defecates blows my mind that any one could think that is acceptable. I can't imagine in the long run that could do anything but cause some kind of damage on some level.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

Last year was the first time I used Capstone so I can't say about other broadleaf weeds other than what we intended it for. The application instructions and species controlled are available online. There are no grazing restrictions at all, including lactating cows. The problem in our area (W. Oregon) is that previously unknown species, like hawksbeard, are naturalizing at a rather alarming rate. Same with henbit, it's choking out grass right and left. Until a few years ago I'd never heard of hawksbeard. Now it's literally taking over everything. I got Capstone for the hawksbeard but only by accident found out how effective it is for blackberry.

For the newcomer to the PNW, also be aware of naturalized noxious weeds such as tansy ragwort (toxic to goats as well as horses) and and spotted catsear, which causes a form of stringhalt in horses. Both are ABUNDANT. Christmas tree farms are frequently rows of trees alternating with MASSES of yellow-flowered catsear. Another woody pest is Scotch broom. And hawthorn, a super spiny tree/shrub. At least blackberries give us yummy berries. Land management in the temperate rainforest is lots of fun.


It's true that a well formulated fertility program can control weeds. But most soil analysts will make recommendations for YIELD, not weed control, and the typical application of lime and NPK will not help to manage weed infestations. And nobody will come out with a lime buggy for a few acres. Here in the PNW where mineral fertility is greatly deficient and unbalanced, it is breathtaking how much soil improvement is needed to effect the elimination of weeds. I know because I have done it. I have at one time eliminated virtually all undesirables through fertility (not massive, established blackberry patches), but also encouraged astounding populations of wild legumes. Because of our excessive rainfall (leeching) and the fact we have no natural mechanisms for remineralization, not to mention high levels of certain minerals in the native rock (like excessive potassium, which encourages weed growth), starting with a random piece of ground usually begins with massive quantities of lime. Our property has virtually no plant available phosphorus or copper or zinc. The crazy thing about starting a soil-balancing, weed-eliminating fertility program is that for the first few years, the requirements of the soil will INCREASE with each application. This is because the soil actually becomes more able to hold nutrients in the root zone, and requires more applications of minerals. You don't do it once and you're done. Because of leaching, plant uptake and crop removal, doing a thorough job of soil building in the PNW with the partial aim of weed elimination is, shall we say, an interesting undertaking. And once you quit applying amendments, the weeds begin to creep back in about four years. Bring money.


And also be aware that tillage encourages certain types of weeds and divides roots like blackberry and field bindweed which start whole new plants. It also collapses soil structure which ruins aeration and capillary action. Some weeds absolutely thrive in these conditions but grasses do not.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

White vinegar! This will help to kill off the brambles if you are worried about chemical sprays. You need to cut the briars back and then spray. 

As for weeds, non of us want them, just grass however I watched a very interesting article about a farmer in Australia, who has regenerated arid farmland back into viable grazing land. 

Most of this has been done through planting 'weeds' along with grass. Grass having short roots soon dies off in dry conditions, weeds with much longer roots bring nutrition up feed the grass.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That would be why you burn. Also why I said it was a process. Not short term. What you may destroy to eliminate you can build back. It would be real interesting to compare notes. I have never lived in the PNW but have accomplished establishing that in a wide variety of locations east of the Rockies. Every location was different but there are some basics that never change. Knowing your area and having a mentor from that area saves a lot of time and trouble. 



Texas Plants and Soils Lab offers testing that would be of interest to you. Ask the Plant is a good basic book. Other resources like Acres U.S.A could also offer some insight and it sounds like you have a great leg up in dogpatch.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

@dogpatch thanks that is all great information. I did think I had a guy who was going to come out and lime for us, even though he swore it wasn't necessary, but he just retired and is no longer interested. For this patch of blackberries, I'm OK getting one of those hand-pushed things that spits out stuff (I forget what they are called, they are a sort of hopper that spins as you push it) and using it to lime, since it's not a big area. I'm wondering if maybe I can pull something behind the lawn mower or golf cart (golf cart already has a little trailer it pulls) and lime the pastures.

It's very interesting to know that the soil requirements will actually increase at first. I'm aware that the rain tends to leach out minerals. I'm definitely aware, in fact paranoid about, Scotch broom. I agree, at least the blackberries produce delicious food.

I'm familiar with the tilling vs not tilling debate, and for the pastures at least I would much rather top dress with nutrients (but not in the rainy season, I suppose) and overseed, rather than till in.

How did you encourage populations of wild legumes?

Another question, I'd like to encourage some local wild-type grasses, rather than what is currently in the pastures (looks like rye grass). Any suggestions how to do that? Places to get seed mixes, and varieties to buy? I'm looking for lower-sugar grasses and I'm thinking that native grasses would be better than what's there right now for this purpose.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

QtrBel said:


> Texas Plants and Soils Lab offers testing that would be of interest to you. Ask the Plant is a good basic book. Other resources like Acres U.S.A could also offer some insight and it sounds like you have a great leg up in dogpatch.



Acres USA publishes the works of William Albrecht, PhD. Walters and Albrecht were friends. They also publish the works of Andre Voisin. For those who can tolerate really dry reading, Albrecht's "Soil Fertility and Animal Health" is a real eye opener. Neal Kinsey, of Kinsey Ag Services, got his certificate of agronomy from Albrecth. His book, "Hands On Agronomy", also printed by Acres, is other great bedside reading. LOL! 



"The Biological Farmer" by Gary Zimmer, Midwest Bioag, follows the same principles of soil balance. Also published by Acres. Kinsey and Zimmer offer balanced fertility soil amendment recommendations.


Dogpatch is situated on "ten million year old lava, weathered to red clay". It's perched on the side of an ancient volcanic vent at 600 ft. elevation. 200 Feet below us, the great Missoula Floods of the Columbia River deposited entirely different types of soil in the Willamette Valley. We have Volkswagen sized boulders just under the surface, so alas, it is not tillable. No irrigation. We turned the pasture from a weed patch into a lavish sea of volunteer grasses and legumes following Albrect/Kinsey. But it was not sustainable. In the first place, with only a CEC of 15 or so at best, the soil is so worn out from erosion that it's not even capable of achieving high levels of fertility, because it can't effectively hold nutrients in the root zone. A lot of what we put on year after year was because of leaching in the high rainfall, as well as crop uptake/removal. The cost of remineralizing the soil was fabulous. We'd have kept going, except the weather, and the habits of the guys with the haying equipment, meant that haying was always delayed until the grass was going brown. I'd get a fresh forage analysis of 28% CP and by the time it was cut, might be 6%. The year we went from the steady 800 lb of lime per acre back up to 2000 lb again was the straw that broke the camel's back. We had to buy prilled lime for our dinky spreader, at retail cost because the lime buggies wouldn't come out. 



The lasting legacy is grass that still grows violently (no hay removed, grass goes back to the soil) for three months of the year, which creates hours and days of mowing if I want to ride out there! LOL! The other nine months of the year, due to the climate, the grass is not fit to graze. Many of the desirable forages have died out, leaving tough old fescue as the dominant specie. And the blackberries, hawksbeard, tansy, daisy, thistle and Queen Anne's lace are making their comeback. Left to its own devices, the land will return to scrub and weeds, although when we go, it'll likely sprout McMansions.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

ACinATX said:


> @*dogpatch* thanks that is all great information. I did think I had a guy who was going to come out and lime for us, even though he swore it wasn't necessary, but he just retired and is no longer interested. For this patch of blackberries, I'm OK getting one of those hand-pushed things that spits out stuff (I forget what they are called, they are a sort of hopper that spins as you push it) and using it to lime, since it's not a big area. I'm wondering if maybe I can pull something behind the lawn mower or golf cart (golf cart already has a little trailer it pulls) and lime the pastures.
> 
> It's very interesting to know that the soil requirements will actually increase at first. I'm aware that the rain tends to leach out minerals. I'm definitely aware, in fact paranoid about, Scotch broom. I agree, at least the blackberries produce delicious food.
> 
> ...



There are all sorts of "spin spreaders" available, from one you strap to your chest to assorted pull-behinds. Heck, I pull a fully loaded Mill Creek manure spreader with an ancient 16 horse Craftsman lawn mower! LOL! With lime, the trick is to get "pelleted" or "prilled" lime. 



Lime in abundance will bring the wild legumes, notably vetch (hopefully not hairy vetch) and black medic, a relative of alfalfa. I used to take my fertilizer requirements to the local plant for custom mixing and it used to just aggravate the heck out of them because "it's only grass, what are you wasting your money on all this stuff for?" The standard treatment to get a crop of grass hay here on "the west side" is 16-16-16. This is the source of the "you don't need it" mentality toward lime...it's just grass.Unbalanced applications of only NPK will cause massive amounts of carbohydrate dense biomass to grow, but if you're not already aware of the hotbed of insulin resistance that is the Pacific Northwest, you can bet this is the cause. A friend of mine that puts up hay says they were getting sugar levels of 14-20% in local hay. Some of the neighbors around us can't even pull a crop of hay off their land anymore. You can't explain it to them, their eyes just glaze over.


Grass is an extraordinary powerhouse of protein production, but in order for it to convert all the sugar and starch it makes into protein and other phytonutrients, it needs adequate supplies of about 18-20 different minerals, which act as catalysts in chemical reactions going on in the plants. The PNW looks like fertility must be rich, but in reality, it's producing lots of wood and sugar, like woody blackberries with sugary fruit.



The reasons that the soil will initially need more mineral applications for the first few years is primarily because sufficient quantities of lime cause the microbial and microfauna populations to explode. "Microbes eat at the table first" and their appetites become voracious. The web of life in the soil begins turning organic material into humus, which along with clay, acts as a magnet to hold certain minerals like lime and magnesium in the root zone and helps to prevent leaching, so as the humus builds, the soil's ability to hold nutrients increases. When the humus content begins to stabilize, so will your mineral requirements. But crop removal and leeching will still deplete mineral stores, so that you must replace them.


When we starrted out, we had an "organic matter" level in the soil of around 14%. Most farms would beg for 2-3%, Sounds great, but because there was no microbial activity, a lot of the dead organic matter in the soil was just "fermenting" by anaerobic soil life, literally "pickling" the organic matter. When the remineralization program got into full swing, the "organic matter" level tumbled down to a stable 5% or so actual humus a very, very good level.


Lime goes on in the rainy season, due to its slow movement into the soil, needs the rain. Other minerals have optimal application times, but for the sake of convenience, we had it all custom mixed. We used a formula of counting days above freezing, to a point where grass would typically break dormancy, for application fo the custom mix. The materials need to be rained/watered in, so our application was usually February/March. With phosphorus, if it's not applied when the plant is beginning growth, it may be locked up and become unavailable to the plants. Once it's in the plant, it moves around happily, doing its job wherever it's needed.


If you want volunteer grasses, get your soil right and they'll show up without spending a nickel on seed. If you want improved grasses, they need high levels of nutrients and will not persist on degraded soil, if they sprout at all. If you decide to seed, or overseed, the university extension service is probably the best source of information about varieties.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Cool, thanks. I actually finally heard back from the county extension agent, so hopefully he can help me figure out some native grasses to plant.

I am very aware of the problems with sugar content in grasses out there, and as the owner of one fat pony, one fat horse, and one formerly hard keeper but putting-on-weight pony-horse cross, I am extremely concerned about it. That's a lot of what is driving my desire to have native grasses rather than the improved pasture grass that's out there now.

After talking to some other people, I'm probably not going to try to harvest hay off it, even though I think it might be possible, but rather just use it for grazing. Compost the manure and spread as a soil amendment. So return the nutrients to the soil.

Based on what you are saying with your experience, I'm wondering if maybe I should hold off liming and fertilizing the blackberry patch, even if I'm able to cut it down. Because first of all we're only going to be there in the summer, and second I don't want to start a chain reaction where the soil suddenly needs more improvements to continue getting better. Since we're only going to be there for a couple of weeks for a short period of time.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

If I had a patch of blackberries that I could actually mow (not all tangled up in a fence) with a bush hog, I'm sure it could evntually be killed out by constant mowing, depriving it of its leaf surface. For cutting canes by hand, you can't beat a good power hedge trimmer! You can rent them.


Sorry about blathering on about soil fertility! LOL! It's a subject I love.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Do you guys think that if I buried the canes in the manure pile they would compost? I'm thinking it might be good -- mix up the composition of the manure pile, plus provide some aeration (if I tossed in a layer of brambles I'm thinking they would create a layer that's a sort of lattice, with air pockets in it).

Burning sounds like a good idea in theory, and I checked to make sure it's allowed in my area (it is), but you need a permit and honestly I'm a little afraid of setting things on fire.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

If your pile is hot enough then no problem even if semi live. If not and you are using g it as a carbon source make sure it is dead. That will keep any from sprouting .


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Washington State University is a wonderful source of information on agricultural and horticultural best practices for the PNW. I don't know the link, but it's easy enough to find.


I remember being told that if you use Round up or other chemicals on Himalayan Black berries, to apply just before they go dormant for the winter, as that is when they suck down the most from the last leaves of fall, deep into the roots.


Oh, and if you rent a herd of goats, you might get to see this sort of great escape! (just kidding, and for yuks and giggles).


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

At least if I rented the goats, it would sort of not be my fault if that happened. On the other hand, I'm planning on only owning two, and fencing appropriately, so hopefully there would be a limit to how much damage they could do.

As for WSU, yes they are great. Also Oregon State. I have lots of pages from both of them bookmarked, and I'm on a mailing list for WSU even though I'm not up there yet. I've been spending most of my reading on learning about pasture management in that area, by which I guess I mean grass management. I haven't really looked up what either of them think about removing blackberries. I think the best thing for me is to have a reasonable expectation if I use natural methods -- I need to expect that it's going to take several years of constant work before I see any change.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

ACinATX said:


> Do you guys think that if I buried the canes in the manure pile they would compost? I'm thinking it might be good -- mix up the composition of the manure pile, plus provide some aeration (if I tossed in a layer of brambles I'm thinking they would create a layer that's a sort of lattice, with air pockets in it).
> 
> Burning sounds like a good idea in theory, and I checked to make sure it's allowed in my area (it is), but you need a permit and honestly I'm a little afraid of setting things on fire.


I think you'd better shred them first. There's a good possibility that decent sized canes will actually sprout and form new plants. Same way as propagating a new rose bush from cuttings. I'm not a real successful composter, though.


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