# Are Tom Thumb bits Cruel?



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Go to the search area of the forum and type in "Tom thumb". You'll see we repeatedly beat this topic into the ground.


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

I absolutely HATE hate hate ......loath completely the TOM THUMB bit It is the most misused bit out there. I just do not like the dang bit what so ever. Its not a mild bit as most seem to think it is. Its actually a harsh bit that effects two points of the mouth it pokes upper mouth as well as the jaw. The bit tends to make a horse raise his head high. 

I just hate the bit period. JMO
TRR


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## Clementine (Sep 24, 2009)

If you want to go the bitless route, I love the Dr. Cook's Bitless Bridle. Granted, it doesn't provide you with a whole of _control_ - it's more of a communication tool. Pretty great test of your relationship with your horse. 

Otherwise, pretty much the mildest bit that exists is a french link or oval mouth loose ring snaffle.


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## Farmergirl (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks Clemtine. I really appreciate knowing which bits are the mildest.


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## Farmergirl (Nov 30, 2011)

thanks Clementine. I really appreciate knowing whjich bits are the mildest.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I have had good luck with the tom thumb. Everyone hates me for that, but it's true. I find that if I ride in an Argentine Snaffle everyone magically thinks it's a good bit even though it's nearly the same as the tom thumb. Maybe get yourself an Argentine Snaffle and don't worry about what other people think. 

Of course I mainly neck rein and have soft hands. And maybe there are better bits out there. I am sure a lot of harsh handed people use a tom thumb and they shouldn't be. There are a lot of harsh handed people period.

But if your horse goes well it in, I really don't see an issue. Especially because you are concerned about it. The people who are really heavy handed don't even know they have a problem. They just think they are right.

These are some other bits I like. You might want to try just a simple curb like this one on the top left, with short leverage:

C Bits and Cutter Bits

And some others:

AT Low Port Loose Cheek Low Port Western Bit 5in - Horse.com

NP Sweet Iron Loose Cheek Western Curb Bit 5in - Horse.com

Mylers are pricey, but my Missouri Fox Trotter loves this one:

Myler Flat Shank #89-11335 Myler Bits (Equine - Supplies Tack - Bits - Working)

I originally got one without a port, but both of my horses prefer the one with the port.

Anyway, let the horse be the judge. Only you know how well your horse goes in your current bit or any other you might try.


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## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

In the right hands it's fine, in the wrong hands, any bit can be harsh.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Bits cannot be cruel .. only the hands that use them ...

imo


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

Exactly why I say I hate Tom Thumbs I get to many horses coming to me that the rider misused the tom thumb bit and now the horse is "Ruined" I do not use the bit at all I have soft hands which is shocking since you can develope a hard hand when racing Standardbreds. But I trained myself to soften my hands. I think too many people jump to quick to change bits instead of improving the training. Changing bits isnt always the answer when a horse doesnt respond to the bit. JMO


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## Farmergirl (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks again to all. I love the help everyone gives. Love the links from you Trailhorserider. Just want to do what is best for my horses.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

For years many horses used a tom thumb when transitioning a horse to eventually use a curb. It's all in the hands that use it. There is a common misconception that by pulling on the reins the bit will fold and go thro the roof of the horse's mouth. True, the bit will fold but it presses downward, into the tongue. Farmergirl, if your horse seems ok with a tom thumb, don't worry about what others say, they don't always know better.


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## SarahK (Mar 19, 2012)

Is a tom thumb cruel? No, but its not as gentle as many people believe it to be. 

If all you do is trail ride, I would just go back to a smooth snaffle. I prefer full cheeks with copper or sweet iron mouths, but D or O ring snaffles work just as well. If you want to continue with a curb strap I would go with a O ring. (It's probably the bit he was originally started in before being introduced to the shank bits.)


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

A TT bit isn't cruel. It's a hybred bit, initially sold to us as a gentle alternative to the "cruel snaffle" and the "cruel curb". Actually a TT makes it hard to communicate with your horse. A snaffle or curb is clearer, and the snaffle has been used for thousands of years to break colts effectively.
Here is a picture of a cruel bit.








Here is a picture of a bit that CAN be cruel when ridden by a novice or a rider with insensitive hands.








Clear? =D


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## Farmergirl (Nov 30, 2011)

I am not changing the bit because my horse doesn't respond because he does, but if this is a harsh bit he certainly doesn't deserve that. I have on occasion ridden him in a halter. Just looking for a milder bit because he should NOT be in pain when I ride him. I am just upset because I thought I was using a mild bit and then today saw an article that said Tom Thumbs are cruel. Want to do what is best for my horse.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

SarahK said:


> Is a tom thumb cruel? No, but its not as gentle as many people believe it to be.
> *
> I think the above sums it up best!*
> 
> ...


You lost me there.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Tom thumbs, on a totally loose rein, are fine. The bit would never be engaged except for brief, light moments.

I personally don't like single joints on shanks at all. Some are better than others, but I wouldn't use any of them as a first choice.

If you want a really kind shank bit with a joint so you can still get your lateral flexion I would look at either some type of Myler bit or something with a billy allen mouthpiece.


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## Farmergirl (Nov 30, 2011)

I know the horse I just bought had a bit that looked like a Tom Thumb but it was probably another kind if snaffle. Are all snaffles joined in the middle or not. The one she had was. Sorry but obviously I am very undereducated about bits. Thanks so much


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## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

SorrelHorse said:


> Tom thumbs, on a totally loose rein, are fine. The bit would never be engaged except for brief, light moments.
> 
> I personally don't like single joints on shanks at all. Some are better than others, but I wouldn't use any of them as a first choice.
> 
> If you want a really kind shank bit with a joint so you can still get your lateral flexion I would look at either some type of Myler bit or something with a billy allen mouthpiece.


My daughter's 4-H lease last year needed to move out of a snaffle for competition so we tried an Argentine snaffle (very similar to a tom thumb) and he hated it. We tried a ton and ended up settling on a very mild shank Myler. Turns out to be our wonder bit. 

We just bought her a mare last week, also been in a snaffle almost exclusively and needs to transition out for competition. Same game. Settled on a the same mild Myler. Again, our wonder bit. (I am beyond grateful too since I didn't want to drop another $100+ on a different one!)

We've tried dozens of bits trying to find one that doesn't cost so much, but that the horses accept and have yet to do it.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Farmergirl said:


> I am not changing the bit because my horse doesn't respond because he does, but if this is a harsh bit he certainly doesn't deserve that. I have on occasion ridden him in a halter. Just looking for a milder bit because he should NOT be in pain when I ride him. I am just upset because I thought I was using a mild bit and then today saw an article that said Tom Thumbs are cruel. Want to do what is best for my horse.


If you want to try something very mild and won't miss the leverage, then a 3-piece snaffle (French link I think they are called?) like someone else recommended might be a good bit to go with.

I personally just like a little bit of leverage. It seems like it encourages them to tuck their head rather than bring it up. So I don't ride in a plain snaffle very often. But a lot of folks do.  

Also, some horses like a more solid mouthpiece and some like a broken mouthpiece. So it depends on the horse too. I always rode with broken mouthpieces until I bought my Fox Trotter and found that she seems more content with a solid mouthpiece.

For mild, mild, mild, try the french link snaffle. But some horses might fuss if it has too many moving parts for them. But what makes it mild is the lack of leverage AND it can't poke into the palate like a two-piece snaffle (or tom thumb) can.


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## SarahK (Mar 19, 2012)

Some people call it a chin strap. Most western bits have a chin strap for extra leverage. An O ring snaffle uses one to keep the bit from moving in the mouth. Not necessary with a full cheek because the cheek pieces keep it in place. Hope that helps.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Fowl Play said:


> My daughter's 4-H lease last year needed to move out of a snaffle for competition so we tried an Argentine snaffle (very similar to a tom thumb) and he hated it. We tried a ton and ended up settling on a very mild shank Myler. Turns out to be our wonder bit.
> 
> We just bought her a mare last week, also been in a snaffle almost exclusively and needs to transition out for competition. Same game. Settled on a the same mild Myler. Again, our wonder bit. (I am beyond grateful too since I didn't want to drop another $100+ on a different one!)
> 
> We've tried dozens of bits trying to find one that doesn't cost so much, but that the horses accept and have yet to do it.


I love the Mylers too! I found the horses like the #33 mouthpiece (large port) better than the one with no port. That also jives with what a Myler representative told me. That the #33 is the goal to ride in because it has the most tongue relief. Before I bought it and tried it out, I was afraid of the high port. There was no need to be, the horses like it better than the "comfort snaffle" mouthpiece. 

This is similar to the Myler #33 but cheaper. A few people have told me they like it but I got a used Myler instead so I haven't tried it myself. 

AT Low Port Loose Cheek Low Port Western Bit 5in - Horse.com


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

SarahK said:


> Some people call it a chin strap. Most western bits have a chin strap for extra leverage. An O ring snaffle uses one to keep the bit from moving in the mouth. Not necessary with a full cheek because the cheek pieces keep it in place. Hope that helps.


I get what you are saying. But a curb strap doesn't function as a curb strap on any kind of snaffle. It stabilized the bit but doesn't work the same because the bit doesn't have leverage. No worries, we are on the same page. :lol:


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## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

trailhorserider said:


> I love the Mylers too! I found the horses like the #33 mouthpiece (large port) better than the one with no port. That also jives with what a Myler representative told me. That the #33 is the goal to ride in because it has the most tongue relief. Before I bought it and tried it out, I was afraid of the high port. There was no need to be, the horses like it better than the "comfort snaffle" mouthpiece.
> 
> This is similar to the Myler #33 but cheaper. A few people have told me they like it but I got a used Myler instead so I haven't tried it myself.
> 
> AT Low Port Loose Cheek Low Port Western Bit 5in - Horse.com


Toklat - Horse Tack - Saddle Pads - Horse Riding Apparel - Myler Bits - Bits - Short Shank

We've had very good luck with this one. The horses both have seemed to respond well, rarely have a gaping mouth. I'm tempted to buy the o-ring version with this mouth piece, but not until I've recovered from teh cost of buying the horse!


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## Farmergirl (Nov 30, 2011)

Sounds like I have some options here. My main goal is that it be gentle for the horse. Guess I should research the different suggestions. I did not do that with the Tom Thumb and am really upset with myself. I truly believed it was a mild bit!
It is really hard for me to think that I may have been cruel to my horse, but i do ride on a loose reins and someone siad that the bit would not hurt the horse while on a loose rein.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Corporal said:


> A TT bit isn't cruel. It's a hybred bit, initially sold to us as a gentle alternative to the "cruel snaffle" and the "cruel curb". Actually a TT makes it hard to communicate with your horse.


This is my understanding of the TT, as well. It's not so much that it's harsh and causes pain, so much as it send unclear signals to the horse. 

Additionally, because it is a leverage bit, you need to use indirect reining with it, and have soft hands. When you pull back with one pound of pressure, the horse feels more than one pound of pressure on his mouth (the longer the shanks, the more pressure he feels) If your horse has been going well in it for so many years I suspect he's quite used to the "confusing" signals it sends and it's probably not an issue for him. This may or may not also be true of the new horse, depending on how long the TT has been used with him.

Using the same amount of pressure on the bit, a snaffle bit will be milder than the TT because it doesn't have the leverage factor- when you pull back with one pound of pressure, the horse feels one pound on his mouth. If your horses don't have issues running through a snaffle bit, it's the "kinder" way to go because you can feel how hard you're really pulling and have less chance of accidentally pulling to hard.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Farmergirl said:


> It is really hard for me to think that I may have been cruel to my horse, but i do ride on a loose reins and someone siad that the bit would not hurt the horse while on a loose rein.


Don't stress. It only causes pressure (like any bit) when the reins are tight. I can tell you are not harsh with it because you care about your horse.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I'm only going to set a couple of facts down and then go get my popcorn and beer......

1. A Tom Thumb is NOT a snaffle. The fact that a TT has a jointed mouthpiece like most snaffles does NOT make it a snaffle. Snaffle bits, by definition, do not have leverage. TT bits have leverage, therefore they are not snaffles. I wish that misconception would go away.

2. I agree that bits per se are not harsh, only the hands attached to them are either soft or harsh. HOWEVER, a curb bit magnifies the effect of harsh hands, whereas snaffles do not.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

TT bits are just poorly designed and poorly balanced. Inorder for the bit to be in a neutral position your horses faces has to be on the vertical. If not the weight and position of the shanks always has it engaged if you have the curbstrap adjusted as you would on any curb bit.
And it just sucks for any direct rein use.

Also there seems to be an idea that more tongue relief the better. That is also not true. The pressure of bit has to go somewhere, whether it be tongue, bars or palate. I find that my horses prefer to pack a bit with the tongue rather than the bars. If I have a bit with tongue reief it has very little. Tongue releif is great for horses that have a big thick tongue. Knowing what the inside of your horses mouth looks like is important in picking a bit or at least it will give you an idea where to start.

Someone pictured a spade bit above and mentioned it that it can be cruel...yes it can, but most don't understand how it works. The spade is a signal bit, NOT a leverage bit like curbs. And if you hold a spade in the palm of your hand, you will feel that it distributes the pressure over a wider area than a regular curb because of the braces. The braces are what signals the horses along with the rein movement. Subtly is key. The spoon fits into the palate and is quite comfortable for a horse. Again knowing the shape of your horses mouth and natural headset is important as spades come with different spoon shapes, sizes and angles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

Tom thumb bits even in the right hands are a very confusing bit to the horse. Here's an article that explains it really well: Trouble with Tom Thumb

You could try a hackamore. My mare loves her little s hackamore, and I use it on her to trial ride. If she could put it on herself I think she would!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Also there seems to be an idea that more tongue relief the better. That is also not true. The pressure of bit has to go somewhere, whether it be tongue, bars or palate. I find that my horses prefer to pack a bit with the tongue rather than the bars. If I have a bit with tongue reief it has very little. Tongue releif is great for horses that have a big thick tongue. Knowing what the inside of your horses mouth looks like is important in picking a bit or at least it will give you an idea where to start.



It depends on the horse I'm sure. But I'm not "wrong" in what I say. 

I had another thread a little while back in the Tack section and someone who is a Myler representative told me this info below and at least with my whole scientific sample of two horses (laugh) I have found that they DO prefer the bit with the big port. Not ALL horses will I'm sure. But I assume the Mylers know a whole lot more about bits than I do, and I found their info to be true in my case. Here is what she said:

_Dale Myler hopes that all horses will eventually go in the MB33 or high ported mouthpiece. It gives the most tongue relief._

And:

_The ported bits allow for the horse's tongue to rise in their mouth so they can swallow - a MUCH needed thing to do.

The centre barrel or bushing allows 'independent side movement' which means you can lift each shoulder separately if you need to. An advantage over a solid curb bit with a port._ _

The MB36 forward tilt gives lots of room for the _ _tongue to lift to swallow and when the rider picks up on the reins it helps the horse to break at the poll. A very popular bit_.
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/help-me-pick-myler-113816/page4/#ixzz1sE96v8qZ
​


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## Farmergirl (Nov 30, 2011)

How hard is it to train yourself and the horse to a hackamore?


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

tom thumbs have been used successfully for years imo. its hands that are harsh not bits.

however i do prefer my argentine snaffle. it has honey flavored copper rollers over a dogbone piece. being broken in 2 places is really nice as my girl likes moveable parts. here are some photos of what it looks like


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> It depends on the horse I'm sure. But I'm not "wrong" in what I say.
> 
> I had another thread a little while back in the Tack section and a someone who is a Myler representative told me this info below and at least with my whole scientific sample of two horses have found that they DO prefer the bit with the big port. Not ALL horses will I'm sure. But I assume the Mylers know a whole lot more about bit action that I do, and I found their info to be true in my case. Here is what she said:
> 
> ...



I wasn't directing my tongue relief commentary towards you , I have just noticed that it seems to be the one thing people are concerned with. There are so many other factors to consider that most don't realize.

I totally agree that all horses are different. I have found my horses prefer little to no tongue relief. And I am sure the style of bits I ride in has a lot to do with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

For a mechanical hackamore (or any hackamore really other than a traditional western bosal) I would just put it on and ride in it. I never had to train one for a mechanical hackamore (like the Little S someone mentioned) because it basically functions like a curb bit. I don't think your older horse would miss a beat in it because he is familiar with a curb bit. Unless he doesn't like nose pressure for some reason.

A hackamore isn't necessarily milder than a bit, especially if it has leverage. It's basically a curb bit using nose pressure instead of a mouthpiece. Not that it is a bad thing, I play around in them too. But I guess I'm just warning you that some people will also tell you that is harsh also.

I have no experience with the Dr. Cooks types. I have heard they don't always have a quick release of pressure and some horses are claustrophobic in them if they are used to a loose rein.

Nothing is black and white but that's what makes life interesting. :lol:

Just keep your hands light and don't worry about what other people think. Play around with bits (because it's fun and I love to figure out their function) but don't stress because someone doesn't like what you ride in. Ride in what your horse seems comfortable with.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Farmergirl said:


> How hard is it to train yourself and the horse to a hackamore?


Mechanical hackamore or a bosal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Coming in a little late, but the problem with Tom Thumb's has nothing to do with the hands holding them...but EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they are THE MOST POORLY designed bit from a mechanical AND architectural standpoint. It's doesn't matter what kind of hands are holding the reins....this is ONE bit where it is totally the design of the bit itself and not hands.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I like little S hackamores, side pulls, bitless bridles and rawhide bosals as far as bitless goes in case anyone cares.  Just figured I'd throw my opinion out there. However it's important you understand bitless doesn't necessarily mean "Gentle". You should strive for the lightest hands and lightest equipment possible when training a horse.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

you have to be super careful with hackamores, especially little S. most are made of rawhide or then strips of leather. if going with the little S put lots of vet wrap on it. or get a hackamore with a wide, flat noseband so the pressure is distributed to a larger area. you also have to make sure you adjust them correctly, not to high or low, as either can cause problems.


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## Mary Liz (Mar 21, 2012)

I have used tom thumbs in both my old paint and palomino who were both quarters. Neither one ever had any problem with the bit. I have seen many riders ride in this bit and never have any problems but I have seen many people use western bits with huge ports in the middle snatch their horses around and have loads of problems. When people look at martingales they find that it pulls to hard in the horses mouth because of the angle at which it pulls the reigns even with a snaffle but in a tom thumb the way it is broken allows it to work with the use of the martingale or draw reigns because its curb strap encourages the horse to put its head down with the pressure. Also naturally a thinner bit is harsher then a thicker one but a tom thumb is thick and distributes pressure over the horses mouth evenly. The break in the middle also allows no turning or pinching that would confuse the horse when ridden with two hands. This is an old bit that has been successful and works this is not an overly harsh bit and is definitely not an abusive bit.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Mary Liz said:


> I have used tom thumbs in both my old paint and palomino who were both quarters. Neither one ever had any problem with the bit. I have seen many riders ride in this bit and never have any problems but I have seen many people use western bits with huge ports in the middle snatch their horses around and have loads of problems. When people look at martingales they find that it pulls to hard in the horses mouth because of the angle at which it pulls the reigns even with a snaffle but in a tom thumb the way it is broken allows it to work with the use of the martingale or draw reigns because its curb strap encourages the horse to put its head down with the pressure. Also naturally a thinner bit is harsher then a thicker one but a tom thumb is thick and distributes pressure over the horses mouth evenly. The break in the middle also allows no turning or pinching that would confuse the horse when ridden with two hands. This is an old bit that has been successful and works this is not an overly harsh bit and is definitely not an abusive bit.



What? Why would you use a martingale with a leverage bit??? 
And it is very confusing for a horse when ridden with a direct rein.

Ma'am I believe you are misinformed on how that paticular bit works.


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## Mary Liz (Mar 21, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> What? Why would you use a martingale with a leverage bit???
> And it is very confusing for a horse when ridden with a direct rein.
> 
> Ma'am I believe you are misinformed on how that paticular bit works.


Hm......People find martingales cruel even with a SNAFFLE not a leverage. I use both arabian martingales on my arab with a snaffle and tom thumbs on my quarters and none of them were confused or harmed. I support this bit I find it works well and I also find martingales work good with snaffles or egg buts.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Mary Liz said:


> Hm......People find martingales cruel even with a SNAFFLE not a leverage. I use both arabian martingales on my arab with a snaffle and tom thumbs on my quarters and none of them were confused or harmed. I support this bit I find it works well and I also find martingales work good with snaffles or egg buts.



I agree to use a martingale(running or german) with a snaffle. That is what they are intended to use with. Snaffle bits(O, D, Full checks and eggbutts) are not leverage bits. A Tom Thumb is. Not familiar with an "arabian martingale" however. Can't imagine the action and purpose being a whole lot different.

If you use a direct rein close to the neck rather than a plow rein, which you would have to with an arabian martingale, there would not be that much confusion. If you are expecting to pull his nose to your knee then yes it would be pretty confusing.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Mary Liz I agree with cowchick, I think you are confused with how this bit actually works.

Put the pieces together here.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-information-curb-western-type-bits-69588/

I don't understand why in the world you would use a martingale with a shank bit unless your horse is lacking foundation or proper training....That's not a stab at you just so you know, but the more contraptions you slap on their face the more bound up/confused they are going to get. If you can't accomplish it with a snaffle you have some underlying problems.


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## Mary Liz (Mar 21, 2012)

First off my arabian only uses an eggbutt or loose ring snaffle I have never seen anyone ride with a tom thumb and a martingale together. The tom thumb works without those devices. So no I do not use a martingale with a tom thumb bit because my arab is NOT used in Western riding and if he was I still wouldn't. I do use it for my quarter which has never had a martingale, tie down, or draw reigns attached but he has a correct headset. A martingale and tom thumb are UNRELATED and second the only device I use that is added to saddle and bridle for my english arab with his SNAFFLE is the martingale.








This is Laddy with a loose ring and martingale. Any basic phelam or kimberwick also uses the tom thumb action because they are all curb bits but yet many people use these bits also. Look at olympic dressage they all use phelams. The tom thumb has gotten a bad name but all phelams, kimberwicks, tom thumbs, and gags are to be ridden in with the knowledge it is stronger then a snaffle. With that being said you are also aware that you use softer hands because the pull to the pressure in the horses mouth is different then with a snaffle. All together you know when using it that you can't act like your riding in a snaffle every time you go out and ride or you will wreck your horses mouth but yes this bit you can ride in and get results without harming your horse if you understand how it works. In ANY bit if you rip hard enough you will eventually get bad results and many blame it on the bit but I have seen it happen so so so so so so much in about every type of bit.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Regardless, some bits when yanked on are worse than others. Yanking on a snaffle will not cause as much damage as yanking on a tom thumb. And by design, even if soft hands the TT bit is by design poorly balanced and gives poor cues.

IMO TT's are really only good if you're riding like this.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> IMO TT's are really only good if you're riding like this.


and even then there are better alternatives.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

^ Exactly


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Mary, The way your post was typed I thought you meant you qere using a TT with a martingale.

You started talking about english style bits, I have no knowledge of them admittedly. I can't even begin to discuss that.

But I will say even with the pic you posted or even the pic Sorrel posted. That horses face would have to be on the vertical for it to be neutral. The TT is supposed to be a transition bit. We all know if a horse is packing a bit on the vertical he is probably a tad more advanced than transitioning from a snaffle to a curb, or has a spectacular natural headset.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Mary Liz said:


> Any basic phelam or kimberwick also uses the tom thumb action because they are all curb bits but yet many people use these bits also. Look at olympic dressage they all use phelams.


Yes, but when you see riders in the Olympics using a pelham (or other curb) they're using both a snaffle (usually jointed) and the pelham. I admit I haven't met any Olympic dressage riders to ask, but I believe it's typical to use a mullen mouth (unjointed) curb in the double bridle. They're also very advanced riders who are capable of individually manipulating the snaffle and curb reins to achieve clear signals.

The kimberwicke does create a small amount of leverage, but it lacks shanks and really can't be compared with the amount of leverage you get on a TT or any other shanked bit.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Actually from what I understand pelhams are not legal in dressage. Double bridles are though.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

SarahK said:


> Some people call it a chin strap. Most western bits have a chin strap for extra leverage. An O ring snaffle uses one to keep the bit from moving in the mouth. Not necessary with a full cheek because the cheek pieces keep it in place. Hope that helps.


Anybody who has tried to direct rein their stiff horse and seen the O-ring snaffle (aka, loose-ring, bc it moves, like a key ring does), or an eggbutt snaffle slide through the horse's mouth and become ineffective, can appreciate this _relatively_ new use of a leather curb chain.


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## Tigo (Feb 25, 2012)

Mary Liz said:


> This is Laddy with a loose ring and martingale. Any basic phelam or kimberwick also uses the tom thumb action because they are all curb bits but yet many people use these bits also. Look at olympic dressage they all use phelams.


FEI riders (Olympic or otherwise) are riding in double bridles and not pelhams. They use a curb bit and a bridoon bit. 



SorrelHorse said:


> Actually from what I understand pelhams are not legal in dressage. Double bridles are though.


Sorrelhorse, I do believe you are correct with that.


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## Mary Liz (Mar 21, 2012)

verona1016 said:


> Yes, but when you see riders in the Olympics using a pelham (or other curb) they're using both a snaffle (usually jointed) and the pelham. I admit I haven't met any Olympic dressage riders to ask, but I believe it's typical to use a mullen mouth (unjointed) curb in the double bridle. They're also very advanced riders who are capable of individually manipulating the snaffle and curb reins to achieve clear signals.
> 
> The kimberwicke does create a small amount of leverage, but it lacks shanks and really can't be compared with the amount of leverage you get on a TT or any other shanked bit.


True but you can also find mullen mouth TT bits. You can even find happy mouth TT like this. 









They do not create the amount of leverage that the TT does but they both have shanks which are chain. Such as this.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I still don't like the bits you posted mary. I do not like the straight action even from the "TT" bit you posted. I do not like single jointed shanked anything. I do not ride english or use a kimberwicke or pelham, but if I did I would use a different mouthpiece. (Except maybe on the pelham....Since it SHOULD be ridden using almost exclusively the snaffle rein. I would not put it on a horse where I would be using the curb rein for more than a split second)


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## Mary Liz (Mar 21, 2012)

SorrelHorse said:


> Actually from what I understand pelhams are not legal in dressage. Double bridles are though.


They can't use a pelham my mistake on words but they can use a shanked curb bit in the double bridle. The concept of the pelham is still the same concept of the double bridle it can be used as a snaffle or it can use curb style pressure on the horses mouth.


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## Mary Liz (Mar 21, 2012)

SorrelHorse said:


> I still don't like the bits you posted mary. I do not like the straight action even from the "TT" bit you posted. I do not like single jointed shanked anything. I do not ride english or use a kimberwicke or pelham, but if I did I would use a different mouthpiece. (Except maybe on the pelham....Since it SHOULD be ridden using almost exclusively the snaffle rein. I would not put it on a horse where I would be using the curb rein for more than a split second)


A curb style bit should never be viewed as a primary style bit unless you compete at upper level things like dressage where double bridles if I'm not mistaken are allowed at level 3. You should always use the bare minimum pressure in your horses mouth to keep their mouth soft and not hard from to much pressure. But the bits are helpful when supervised and for short times to train the horse for what ever reason is needed. I have only ridden in a TT and pelham other than that its all snaffle and I'm only riding in a snaffle now. So yes a snaffle is for everyday riding but these bits shouldn't be feared if they are used correctly and don't have crazy ports in them.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Mary Liz said:


> A curb style bit should never be viewed as a primary style bit unless you compete at upper level things like dressage where double bridles if I'm not mistaken are allowed at level 3. You should always use the bare minimum pressure in your horses mouth to keep their mouth soft and not hard from to much pressure. But the bits are helpful when supervised and for short times to train the horse for what ever reason is needed. I have only ridden in a TT and pelham other than that its all snaffle and I'm only riding in a snaffle now. So yes a snaffle is for everyday riding but these bits shouldn't be feared if they are used correctly and don't have crazy ports in them.


Define "Crazy port" for me....I'd loveeeee to have THAT discussion while we're at it.

Like me and cowchick have both stated throughout this thread, the only time a horse can be free of the pressure of the TT is when the horse is on a totally loose rein and on the vertical...Even with the softest hands, there are MUCH better options.


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## Mary Liz (Mar 21, 2012)

I don't know can you classify the port on that TT for me compared to the mullen mouth TT. 



















I think the ports explain themselves and I don't think I need to explain any farther on that. I have read stories of how horses have their jaws broken by hard handed riders and so on of the horrors but as I have stated all along why would anyone first off ride in a snaffle like that then second off get in a curb bit like that. I have seen people ride in such a way that makes even the thickest snaffles seem painful to the horse and I have seen people ride like they have some sense on how to ride in a pelham or TT and do WAY better then the person riding in a snaffle. Bit choice is based on the horse and the rider. 











Even snaffles can be extremely harsh and to be sure nobody would ride heavy handed in this bit or ride in it at all but yet it is not a curb. I would not put the whole loose ring bit down as being abusive if I saw someone rip this in a horses mouth and the horse ends up bleeding in its mouth because as we know this is an extreme form of the loose ring bit. If I were to look at the extreme cases of loose ring bits and curb bits I would find myself unable to ride in any bit but yet you can see there is good with both types of bits if you look at people who ride like a responsible human being on their horse.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

The thin twisted should never be in any horses mouth ever, I agree.

The others with the port however do not speak for themselves....High ports should NEVER be used by someone who does not have a full grasp of how they work and the softest hands possible. 

I'm gonna go ahead and quite smrobs on the bits because I agree with her completly:

On the first port:

"Should be used by experienced riders only. This bit applies pressure to the bars, poll, chin, tongue, and palate of the horse. Most often seen in disciplines where invisible cues are desired such as Western Pleasure."

The second, it's not bad, again with riders who know how it works. Roller for the busy horse and not excessively larger.

The third is a mikmar bit. I still do not have an opinion on those bits so I won't chime in on that one.

You are right though, they look scary.

Any bit can be abusive as you've already observed.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Corporal said:


> Anybody who has tried to direct rein their stiff horse and seen the O-ring snaffle (aka, loose-ring, bc it moves, like a key ring does), or an eggbutt snaffle slide through the horse's mouth and become ineffective, can appreciate this _relatively_ new use of a leather curb chain.


So, for clarity, the one that applies leverage is a* CURB* strap or chain

The one that keeps the bit from sliding through the mouth is a *CHIN* strap.


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

Why is it that the higher you go in many disciplines such as reining, dressasge etc, you are required to use bits which work by applying more force to a horse's mouth. Surely the measure of one's skill as a rider is being able to get outstanding performances with the minimum of force or pain? 

Why is it that a simple snaffle is only deemed suitable for training levels, but being able to multiply the force applied to the sensitive structures of the horse's mouth via a first class lever is a sign of one's skill?


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## Fowl Play (Sep 22, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> So, for clarity, the one that applies leverage is a* CURB* strap or chain
> 
> The one that keeps the bit from sliding through the mouth is a *CHIN* strap.


 
:wink: Yet, when I go to the store to buy a "chin" strap for a snaffle, I buy it off the hook of curb straps. Every snaffle at our barn has a chin strap on it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

corymbia said:


> Why is it that the higher you go in many disciplines such as reining, dressasge etc, you are required to use bits which work by applying more force to a horse's mouth. Surely the measure of one's skill as a rider is being able to get outstanding performances with the minimum of force or pain?
> 
> Why is it that a simple snaffle is only deemed suitable for training levels, but being able to multiply the force applied to the sensitive structures of the horse's mouth via a first class lever is a sign of one's skill?



IMO, the simple snaffle can be just as painful if used incorrectly.
The higher level bits are certainly capable of applying more pressure but in a different way. (I am speaking about wetern, I have no knowledge of bits used in english or Dressage) Upper level in any event of course implies a well trained horse and a rider able to ride that horse effectively and to showcase the horse and himself. Riding in a upper level bit demonstrates that. If you can ride a horse "larger" bit it show his extensive training, not a band-aid for lack of. If you can ride with a horse with a soft hand it also shows good horsemanship. Example - Cowboys who ride with a spade will take a few strands of horsehair and attach the reins by tie them to the bit with the hair. If they break the hair, they are riding heavy handed. It is easy to get heavy handed working cattle, I believe it takes a good horseman to be lighthanded in a exciting moment. Like taking a cow down the fence at full speed. Any one could just haul back on the reins and turn the cow. But a horseman will read that cow, sit down, use his legs and use the slightest signal from the hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mary Liz (Mar 21, 2012)

SorrelHorse said:


> The thin twisted should never be in any horses mouth ever, I agree.
> 
> The others with the port however do not speak for themselves....High ports should NEVER be used by someone who does not have a full grasp of how they work and the softest hands possible.
> 
> ...


"If the port is tall and narrow,it will involve the tongue, bars and palate, offering the horse little relief. Such a bit is best suited for a horse that needs only the occasional reminder to carry himself in the correct frame by a skilled rider with a delicate touch. A hinged mouthpiece coupled with a high port intensifies the effect by collapsing over the sensitive bars while pressing against the roof of the mouth."
Quoted from http://www.horsechannel.com/media/western-horse-training/bit-advice-10035.aspx.pdf 

"Interestingly enough, she rated an eggbutt snaffle w/ mouthpiece of 1/2" or more thickness as the mildest bit. It scored a 1. A smiliar thickness French-link snaffle would score a 2. Many horseman would say that a French-link snaffle is milder than an ordinary snaffle because the third piece in the center reduces/eliminates the possible nutcarcker effect. Dr Deb considers 1,2 or 3 pieces in the mouth as essentially the same in severity. The eggbutt snaffle was scored as milder because of the difference in how the rings attach to the mouthpiece. The French-link usually has loose rings and the eggbutt allows less movement.

The Western snaffle bit she used as an example got a 23 because of the broken mouth and the shank length. The walker bit with 7" shanks and a thin mouth w/ high port got a 29. The single twisted wire snaffle with a thin copper mouth: 15. Double twisted wire snaffle: 25...etc

I rated the bits in my dressage double bridle using her article. Even though I use a thickish loose ring bradoon(3/8"), it rated a 4. Still mild but near the high end of the range. The curb (2.5" shanks, wide low port, thick mouthpiece, solid attchment of shanks to mouthpiece) rated a 7. My wife uses a bradoon that is 1/2" and has an eggbutt attachment. It rates a 1.

To make a long story short, snaffles aren't always the mildest bit. Many of them are stronger than curbs(e.g. a twisted wire snaffle is stronger than my curb bit). Severity depends on LOTS of things."
Quoted from Horses - Bits and Bitting - horses and ponies on the internet

I would like to say that classifying a high ported bit as nicer to the horse compared to curb bits is inaccurate. I fail to see why we look down on the curbs that are jointed because they need to be ridden by an advanced rider but we hold ported bits to a different standard because a high ported bit would be extremely harsh if it was in the wrong persons hands. The right rider who knows what he/she is doing can ride effectively in a curb bit or ported bit on a older horse so to act like a curb is overly harsh is a slanted view.

My horse that was switched to a regular jointed pelham years ago for a VERY short amount of time is now able to be ridden in/ and his everyday/show bit is the eggbutt which was the mildest bit. (his is also thick so he has an extremely mild bit)


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> IMO, the simple snaffle can be just as painful if used incorrectly.
> The higher level bits are certainly capable of applying more pressure but in a different way. (I am speaking about wetern, I have no knowledge of bits used in english or Dressage) Upper level in any event of course implies a well trained horse and a rider able to ride that horse effectively and to showcase the horse and himself. Riding in a upper level bit demonstrates that. If you can ride a horse "larger" bit it show his extensive training, not a band-aid for lack of. If you can ride with a horse with a soft hand it also shows good horsemanship. Example - Cowboys who ride with a spade will take a few strands of horsehair and attach the reins by tie them to the bit with the hair. If they break the hair, they are riding heavy handed. It is easy to get heavy handed working cattle, I believe it takes a good horseman to be lighthanded in a exciting moment. Like taking a cow down the fence at full speed. Any one could just haul back on the reins and turn the cow. But a horseman will read that cow, sit down, use his legs and use the slightest signal from the hand.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The problem is that the reason these horses feel so "light" in the hand is because the amount of pressure being applied to their mouths is so much more that they are highly motivated to respond to make the pressure go away. Bits with shanks and curb straps are first class levers which means that the amount of pressure applied by the rider's hands is multiplied between 3 and 7 times once the horse feels it on its mouth, poll and chin groove. Whereas with a snaffle there is a direct relationship between the amount of pressure _felt_ by the rider and that applied to the horse's mouth. Which is not to say that snaffles can't be used to cause extreme pain and discomfort- of course they can. 

The longer the shank, the greater the pressure that can applied by the rider. Put simply, the rider can do _less_ with their hands because the bit does proportionally _more_. So while the amount of pressure may feel like ounces to the rider, the horse is feeling pounds. There is nothing light about what the horse is feeling. 

As to the pressure being applied in a different way- this is correct- more of the horse's head is subjected to at best mildly uncomfortable and at worst severe pain. With a snaffle its _just_ its mouth, with a curb, especially one with high ports or spades, its also the roof of the mouth, the chin groove and the poll. I've seen bits adverised which have 7 inch shanks, twisted wire mouth pieces and wire nosepieces- why would anyone need to cause that amount of pain to get their horse to respond to their cues? And why would it ever be justified to use such equipment?

In dressage, the use of a double bridle (which includes a curb bit with curb strap) and spurs is mandatory for the "higher" levels. What I personally love about freestyle reining are the riders who dispense with their bridles all together. Obviously the bits have been used to train the movements but that some riders can perform without them demonstrates a level of skill which doesn't rely on forcing the horse to respond with pain or discomfort.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

corymbia said:


> The problem is that the reason these horses feel so "light" in the hand is because the amount of pressure being applied to their mouths is so much more that they are highly motivated to respond to make the pressure go away. Bits with shanks and curb straps are first class levers which means that the amount of pressure applied by the rider's hands is multiplied between 3 and 7 times once the horse feels it on its mouth, poll and chin groove. Whereas with a snaffle there is a direct relationship between the amount of pressure _felt_ by the rider and that applied to the horse's mouth. Which is not to say that snaffles can't be used to cause extreme pain and discomfort- of course they can.
> 
> *It can feel like pounds with untrained hands...agreed.
> A good horseman knows what that horse is feeling and is only applying what is needed, simply backing up the seat and legs if need be. More like sending a signal, not a forced pained command to get the end result*.
> ...


*I know nothing of Dressage, so I can not speak about double bridles and such. I am guessing you ride english or dressage from your views. And you have to think about the difference. I believe that those who ride english prefer to have a horse to seek contact with the bit. I ride a horse to be slightly behind, off the bit, but not to hide from it. It seems some(not all) people have a rather skewed view on the curb bit, especially ones that don't use one and have not been taught properly to use one. And admittedly most people that do ride with one haven't. But the same could be said the same for a snaffle. I have seen people haul back and pull on the reins with a snaffle...no feel what so ever. Feel and timing. *


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

fftopic: Sorry, just always wanted to use that one!

The OP's question was whether or not TT bits are cruel.

Yes, in the wrong hands, any bit can be cruel, but some bits make it inherently more difficult to have the "right" hands- like the bits Corporal posted. Leverage bits can get a bad rap because they amplify the pressure from your hands, which makes it harder to know exactly how much pressure the horse is really feeling, but I don't think anyone here has implied that ALL curb bits are bad.

Some variations on the TT were mentioned, but I think 99% of TT bits look like this and it is most likely that it is the design the OP is referring to:


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

corymbia said:


> The longer the shank, the greater the pressure that can applied by the rider. *Put simply, the rider can do less with their hands because the bit does proportionally more.* So while the amount of pressure may feel like ounces to the rider, the horse is feeling pounds. There is nothing light about what the horse is feeling.


I'm thinking you are not familar with western disciplines, where there is SO much slack in the rein...the exact response we want, is from a slight lift of the hand.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

corymbia said:


> The problem is that the reason these horses feel so "light" in the hand is because the amount of pressure being applied to their mouths is so much more that they are highly motivated to respond to make the pressure go away. Bits with shanks and curb straps are first class levers which means that the amount of pressure applied by the rider's hands is multiplied between 3 and 7 times once the horse feels it on its mouth, poll and chin groove. Whereas with a snaffle there is a direct relationship between the amount of pressure _felt_ by the rider and that applied to the horse's mouth. Which is not to say that snaffles can't be used to cause extreme pain and discomfort- of course they can.
> 
> The longer the shank, the greater the pressure that can applied by the rider. Put simply, the rider can do _less_ with their hands because the bit does proportionally _more_. So while the amount of pressure may feel like ounces to the rider, the horse is feeling pounds. There is nothing light about what the horse is feeling.
> 
> ...


Which virtually any Grand Prix Dressage rider can also do. Your knowledge of how a Dressage bridle/bit combo is completely off the mark. The entire purpose of a double bridle is to use MAINLY the bridoon which is a snaffle. They don't have this heavy contact on the curb portion of the bit. It is used for refinement of aids and to actually be MORE gentle on the mouth then the use of just a snaffle at that level.

It is absolutely no different then a reiner using a curb. It's for refinement of aids and LESS action in the mouth, despite being considered a "heavier" bit.

I've seen just as much damage done with a snaffle in incorrect hands as a curb. I can't stand this idea that somehow a snaffle is "gentler". Bad hands are bad hands in any bit. If your horse is running away with you in a snaffle, he WILL also run away from you in a curb. 

My old Dressage coach did bridleless demos with her old gelding. She never "practiced". He was ridden brideless because he was SUCH a successful horse in a _double bridle._ The entire point of the demos is how little of Dressage is in the bridle, like any discipline worth it's merit.

My current Dressage coach said something extremely insightful one day - she would know that her Training Level training on my Paint would be complete when she no longer had to stop her using her hands. She's reached that point now and it's a marvelous feeling to simply lift your seat, become less mobile and have her come to a lovely stop, never having to pull back a single ounce.


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