# Branded/Brandy , . Final name "Bandit"! .Mia's replacement



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/mias-last-day-bsms-580473/#post7464529

discusses Mia's last day with me and why I agreed to swap her for my farrier's 7 year old Arabian/Mustang mix gelding.

Since the new guy IS the new guy, I thought I'd start a journal about what I find out about him and what I learn from him.

*Branded/Brandy*









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We decided to mix Branded (or Brandy - my wife prefers Brandy but I like Branded better for a branded gelding) with Trooper and Cowboy on his second day. Things went well during daylight. Maybe they went OK last night. But when I went to get him for his first ride this morning, he had a big, fresh bite mark on his rump. I didn't think the saddle pad would rub, but I also figured it might not be the best time for his first ride with me.

So I ignored the saddle I had brought out and took him for a walk. It is obvious when he gets nervous. His neck goes vertical - as in about 80 deg from the horizon. However, if you scratch his withers and then reach up and rub his forehead, he'll drop his head and start to unwind. I don't think he knows a "head down" cue, but I think a cue like that might work very well with him.

Branded comes from the Tuba City AZ area. This is his sire meeting Mia. Notice all the trees in the background:








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Yeah, me neither. This is our neighborhood:








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By eastern standards, we don't have any trees. By the reservation standard, we have plenty. Perspective is everything...:wink:

He was troubled. Not really tense, and not nervous in the way Mia would get, but...concerned. His neck would go vertical, but it was easy to get him to lower his head and move on. Unlike Mia, his emotions never spiraled upward.

Still, when we turned off the paved road and got on to dirt, about 2/3 of his tension went away immediately. He stayed mostly relaxed the rest of the walk. He noticed the horses some people own, but was only interested in a neighborly way. The big water tank that acts as the reservoir for the neighborhood was....different, but not overwhelming.

He obviously knew about washes and was comfortable walking in them. Unlike Mia, who was raised in a corral, he know all about rough terrain and automatically did what he needed to protect his feet and stay balanced. He showed no concern over being away from other horses. We did close to 2 miles zig-zagging thru the desert with no sign that he was worried about being alone with a human.

When we got back to the subdivision, his tension increased...paved roads and houses are not his favorite thing. But I don't think it will take long for him to learn. When we got back, my wife put Corona on his bite marks - there were quite a few, actually - while I rebuilt the partition to give him a private corral. He is now in about a 35x15 corral with a shade, food and water. It shares a common fence with the other two horses. When I get the time, I'll make it bigger - I think I can go to about 50x20 (or 30) without violating zoning regulations.

On another thread,

http://www.horseforum.com/new-horses/easier-keep-horses-same-sex-579826/#post7456874

when I asked about keeping 3 geldings, some folks said having a small and odd number of geldings would result in one being picked on. I don't know if that is happening here. He seems to be a 'get along' and submissive sort of horse. For a while, we'll keep him separated unless someone is there to supervise.

I may keep him separated regularly. I was wondering if that might help to keep him from getting herd bound. I've never tried it before, although most of the people near me keep their horses separated. Being able to groom over a common fence line but also being able to get away at will might work OK.

He is very open to humans. He was out and out lovey-dovey with my wife. He kind of reminds me of Lilly, a mare we used to own: Ok with other horses but seems to genuinely like being near a human. Unlike Mia, he is not a very dominant horse or a "Hell NO!" horse. My goal with him is to get a horse that I can go ride for 2 hours alone in the desert. Of course, that was my goal with Mia...for SEVEN years! 

We'll see...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A closer check of Trooper indicates someone gave as well as they got. Troop has a pretty good bite mark on his ribs. Explain to me again why I should be worried about smacking a horse with the palm of my hand....?????


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

We boarded Horse for quite some time, it usually took a few weeks for the New Horses to adjust with the ones that were there before they arrived.

Seemed in almost every case there was a lot of biting and even some kicking on occasion, Horses tend to have the need to see who is boss.

We always separated the boys from the girls, mixing seemed a lot worse and at feeding time the girls would not let the boys eat.

We finally built a temporary paddock and placed the New Horse in it for 3-5 days, the paddock was made with electric wire so that no biting over or between the wires could occur, that really helped all the Horse get acquainted it seemed before we put the New Horse in the main Pasture.

It will take Branded a while to get used to his new surroundings, sounds like he did pretty well on his 1st outing with you.

.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

What about "Brandon"?


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

If I had a horse named Branded, after the show, I might end up calling him Rifleman for short.


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## tjtalon (Apr 26, 2013)

bsms: where do I find your new thread, w/out coming back to this one?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is going to be my journal thread, keeping track of what happens.

I tried riding him today. I was told he had mostly been ridden in a halter, but wouldn't stop without a bit in open country. So I figured our first ride would be with a simple double-joint D-ring. 








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Mounted up. He was fine. Started forward and doing some turns. Brand was puzzled. That is how it seemed to me. Not rebellious, not upset, but confused. Like he didn't know what a leading rein or even simple direct reining meant in a snaffle. His neck was rigid.

After about 2 minutes, I decided a horse that wouldn't give me his head was a horse not ready to ride in a bit. So I stopped. A slight pull back on the reins - one hand, holding the reins lightly, and he STOPPED. With his head up and neck at 80 degrees. Hmmmm....

I dismounted (and he was rock steady during the dismount). We started working on lateral flexes, with me standing next to his head and asking for a give - any give. We started with about 1/2". He started to get the idea, but I think it was still in jello when we quit for the day. Or not:

Because then my wife came out and wanted to work with him on lateral flexes. So she did. He still seemed puzzled. She suggested trying the rope sidepull halter that is always under our horse's bridle. He gave better and more willingly that way. Not well, but better. Hmmmm....

Any tension on his part resulted in his head going way up. So we shifted to working on 'head down' cues, from the ground. He was puzzled, but he seemed willing the whole time. The "head down" made slow progress, from 1/2" at first to drops of 6, then 12 inches.

I then walked him around the block, on pavement the whole time since that made him tense yesterday, surrounded by houses. He was tense today, too. We did 5-6 heads down getting past the first house. Any time he got nervous, we stopped and worked on head down. By the time we reached the first corner, it was one head down/house. By the second corner, his head went down. Poll just above the withers. We finished the walk that way, with one exception. We practiced some head down movements for fun. He did a lot of blowing and seemed to get the idea that walking relaxed was more enjoyable than being tense.

The first garbage can resulted in him going to the far side of the street to avoid it. I stopped. We did a head down. I waited. I took a step closer to the trash can. Kept slack in the rein/lead. He took a step. About a minute later, he stuck his nose inside the empty garbage can.

We did the same thing several times - today is our neighborhood garbage day. The last time, we were walking close by one and I stepped over next to it. With slack in the lead line, he stepped over and stuck his head almost all the way inside, then decided it wasn't worth attention.

Overall: He looks like a horse mostly ridden in a sidepull halter, but with a vastly calmer nature than Mia. It looks to me like the bit was used to teach "*Stop!*"...but I want him to learn to feel me through the reins. That is possible, even when riding with slack, western style. He likes and trusts humans. He is a calm but willing horse, by nature. With a light hand, I think he can turn into a good beginner's trail horse - and I'm fine with being that 'beginner'. 

I spent 7 years trying to teach Mia to be calm. She became much calmer, but I don't think her nature would ever have allowed her to be as calm as he is now. For an older guy who wants a relaxed, 'walk & trot' ride in the desert, by himself, he has a lot of potential. At 7, we have time to work on it!

Tomorrow's goal: More lateral flexing, more walking with a relaxed neck. Riding can follow the basics.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

For today, we ended up taking a walk on a lead. My wife has been after me to go for a long walk with her, so we added a horse and walked him for an hour or so. If he got tense, we would do a head down cue, which he remembered well from yesterday.

Near the large water tank, there is a cement retaining wall about 12-30 inches high, depending on where. I asked him to step up about 18" and he did so without hesitation. He was a little more cautious going down, but only for a moment. But we went thru narrow spots in the wash, past horses, a couple of cows and plenty of cars...without him hesitating. He also has decided pavement feels better on the feet than our rocky trails. Given a choice between walking beside the road and on it, he now likes ON it!

But two days ago, he had his head on a swivel going thru the neighborhood. Today?








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He also met a garbage truck today:








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The second time we met the garbage truck, I was leading. The garbage truck was coming directly at us. I asked him to stand, and he did...so I asked him to walk forward to help his nerves. He did.

I let him stand and watch the garbage truck for a moment. When I heard the brakes release, I urged him forward and we 'chased' the garbage truck. Throughout, he was pretty calm and very responsive to his people.

We talk a lot about the horse needing to trust us, but I think we also need to be able to trust our horse. It is hard to ride well if you cannot trust the horse. Watching Branded the last couple of days, I'm starting to trust him. He's careful of his footing. He's aware, but he calms quickly. He's shown no signs of jumping, spinning or wanting to run away. I might be able to learn a lot from a horse who keeps his head...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Tried riding Branded today. Good news.

This time, I tried a simple, single-joint D-ring:










Having settled in some, and done some walks with the missus & I, he is more relaxed. And while I don't know if it is the extra time to settle in, or some increased confidence in me, or a change of bits or something else...he knows more than I thought he knew.

We did some lateral flexing before mounting and he seemed pretty comfortable with it. As I mounted, a large moving van pulled into my neighbor's driveway. Branded didn't care. Barely flicked an ear. I tried to keep him busy moving, and he did so without a care.

I don't think he understands an opening rein. That was the standard Mia & I used, first in a sidepull and later for all riding. Mia became instinctive about it.

Brand didn't get it...but if I pulled back on the left rein with my pinkie finger, he would usually turn. Left. Like he ought. The Cavalry manual calls it the "Direct Rein of Opposition" and describes it as "_This is a powerful rein effect, and should be taught all horses, as it is irresistible when the right leg, or spur, if necessary, is used to force the hind quarters [the opposite direction]_".

Personally, I prefer an opening rein, but I'll be content for now that he knows one well enough to work with pinkie pressure (usually). Teaching him my preferred opening rein will be easy enough.

At one point, he stumbled slightly and stopped, then raised his head so his neck was nearly vertical. He has a short neck, so I massaged it at the poll and, after 5-10 seconds, he dropped his head. I was wondering what I would use for a 'head down' cue from the saddle...guess I now know! It is a cue I can use from the ground when standing beside him or from the saddle. Same cue for the same desired reaction - good! And it is an easy cue I can practice with him virtually any time, and can easily practice a few times before getting on. Since he seems capable of calming down instead of spinning up, a cue to say "Relax, I've got it and you don't need to worry" should be very useful.

The moving van pulled out and parked in the street after 15-20 minutes. I dismounted and tried to lead him to the van so he could get a better look. Before I got there, the van left. So he at least got to see the enormous thing moving away from him, but we didn't get a chance to take a close look.

At that point, I just walked him around the block. We did some 'between the ears' head down cues from time to time, but he was pretty calm the whole walk. By the time we got back, the wind had picked up and it has remained at 30 mph with gusts to 40 the rest of the day.

Forgot to mention we also trotted a little. His previous rider is probably around 200 lbs. A guy who used to ride him sometimes weighs 260. Add tack, and you'd be pushing 300 lbs on a horse who probably weighs 850 tops (35%). At a trot, he stiffens his back. I probably would too, if I was a horse who had carried 30-35% of his body weight on a regular basis. So I rode it in two point, trying to achieve two goals: stay out of his mouth and stay off of his back. After 4 laps, he started to relax slightly...but we'll need to do some work for him to relax his back at a sitting trot! Saddle, clothes and me run around 195, or about 23% of his body weight. I also am content to post and actually pretty content to ride two point on a horse who doesn't shy or spin. I think I'll be able to get him to relax at a trot. It will just take some time and trotting long enough for him to WANT to relax, and then to find out it doesn't hurt.

Overall, very happy with the short ride. The wind is supposed to stop this evening, and the next 4-5 days should be good riding weather.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

BTW - when my wife tried to say "Branded" today, it came out "Bandit". We got to talking about it, and his original name was "Swiper" - I gather from a character on Dora the Explorer. Hmmm...swiping is kind of like stealing, and a Bandit steals, so would Bandit work?

He may be a horse of many names before one settles. Some of our dogs have gone thru 6 or 7 before one sticks!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Bandit sure sounds better than branded!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It was a momentous day for Bandit (which is the name that I think will stick) - first trail ride in southern Arizona. OK, it had as much paved road as unpaved, and none of the trails were narrow or rough...but if you want a confident horse, you don't start with something they might not be able to handle.

We mixed the horses last night, which was not a good idea. Bandit had a fresh bite mark on his rump. Post ride, I redid the corral to give Bandit a fairly large corral to himself, with a long shared fence line so he can be near the other horses IF he wants.

Trooper hadn't gone on a trail ride in ages himself, but the youngest graduated from High School last Friday & the weekend's winds have died down. So we saddled up and headed out. Bandit was using the same single joint D-ring & Trooper took the Waterford. Maybe it was the bite on his butt, but Bandit wanted to stay well ahead of Trooper, and did so most of the ride. He direct reins...OK. Needs work. Doesn't respond well to leg. Neck reins better than I thought if you use the upper half of his neck for the cue. He was elevated during the first 30 minutes, literally: neck and head raised. But he kept going forward.

Since he is less rebellious than Mia, I decided to try Cherie's principle of 'If I want you to look around, I'll tell you to look around. Otherwise, you focus on the trail.' My paraphrase, and my fault if I misunderstood her. Mia would fight being ridden like that. Bandit wasn't exactly thrilled, but he accepted it. By the end, it was paying dividends. When we passed some kids playing basketball in their driveway near the end of the ride, he didn't even flick an ear in their direction. He may be one of those horses who do well with "Don't look. Do your job."

But he kept going forward. No balking. If uncertain, a light squeeze would urge him forward. I did keep my legs further forward than normal. It was like putting a fence up beside him to keep him facing forward.

There was only one spot he was squirrelly. On a section of dirt road with a sharp drop down followed by a sharp climb, someone had a horse in their backyard. The horse went bonkers, racing back and forth, kicking and squealing. Trooper nickered. When Bandit thought about it, I turned him back and forth. When he tried to look at the horse that was acting up, I pulled his face around - rather forcibly, but I want to establish from the start that he looks only if I want him to look. He kept moving forward (good)...a bit prancy-dancey, but his sire is an Arabian and I was content that he kept going forward.

But that was about it. We went for around 90-120 minutes, and he didn't fight, jump sideways, balk, put it in reverse or act ****y. By the second half, he was content to ignore a jogger dressed in pink who came up from behind us, the kids playing basketball and Cowboy calling him from our corral. The pain in my knees showed I had done some bracing, but mostly during the first half. The entire ride had slack reins 95% of the time or more. His back was much more relaxed by the end.

My back was too! 

I hadn't realized just how defensive I had become while riding Mia. I owe Mia a lot. It was her personality that got me interested in riding. It was her 'problems' that got me interested in riding well. She drilled into me the Fundamental Principle of Horsemanship: 

*"Horses are alive!"* ​
And once you learn that, a whole lot follows - they are individuals. They have a will. We don't control them, but we can influence them. We train their mind, but they control their feet. Parelli might work for one horse and be a disaster for another. One horse needs a lot of direction while another needs more freedom of choice. A good bit for one (or bitless) might be bad for another. They are alive!

But I think Bandit could become the sort of horse who looks after his rider even while his rider looks after him. That could be nice too. And if I can learn to relax in the saddle, I'll be a better rider. :wink:


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Sounds like Bandit is going to work out great!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> And if I can learn to relax in the saddle, I'll be a better rider. :wink:


That's a real key point!  A common vicious cycle happens when the horse doesn't relax because the rider isn't relaxed and the rider finds it harder to relax when the horse is tense, and it can be this constant feedback loop that makes things perpetually worse. Some horses, of course, are more Zen than others. As it true for people!

Some people in Europe used to think they were more relaxed when they drank a few cups of the traditional winter tea with sugar and rum brought in thermoses to horse establishments. I did note that when they got too relaxed, they also tended to fall off! Particularly on obstacle courses. :rofl:

All the best with Bandit. He does look good, and so does his sire!  Looking forward to more of your stories (even if they won't be quite as dramatic now that Mia is out of the picture?).










Life with Mia? ;-)










What I hope Bandit will be for you!

Best wishes from the Antipodes!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Got an update on Mia. She's learning a new skill set...click on the pic to see it full size:








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I think that is exactly what she needed, and what I could never give her.  

And look at that terrain! Dang! I wouldn't worry about a spook or fall there, either! And I've always thought that she could make a great cow horse with her focus and intensity directed into something useful. I think she would love to impose her will on a misbehaving steer, if introduced to it in a way that would give her confidence.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

Learning to relax, yes. My instructor pointed out I am too stiff in the back and hips, so I'll be working on that as well. Being a runner helps not at all. I look forward to following your journey.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Running tightens the parts I need to loosen, and loosens the parts I need to tighten for riding. But I started jogging in 1972 and have no intentions of giving it up without a fight. The fall I took on Mia in 2009 stopped me for 5 years, but I got in a 32 minute jog today. No riding...too pooped to climb on right now. 

I was going to try some ground work with a curb bit today, but that will have to wait as well. He'll stop OK in a snaffle, I think, but a Billy Allen curb or a low port Mylar curb can make a gentle approach for trail riding, when used right. But I need to teach him the right response to a curb bit while standing on the ground next to him. Could have started it today if I hadn't worn myself out jogging. That, or I'm getting old. Maybe both at once...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Bandit made his second trail ride today. Yesterday, I spent about 20 minutes riding him in the arena, doing lots of turns while using this bit:








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The mouthpiece is the same size and shape as the Billy Allen curb I eventually want to move him to, but in a snaffle it functions similar to a sidepull. We did lots of turns since my little arena doesn't allow for long, straight lines. After 20 minutes, I figured I had been in his mouth enough. So I took him for a walk, leaving the bit in so he could get used to just carrying it. Left the saddle on too. Planned to just walk him around the block, but we ended up going for about 3.5-4 miles with some desert but mostly along paved roads and near houses. He got to go past strange horses, houses with dogs (one must have had 20 little dogs in the front yard, all barking) and enough cars to see his reaction (none to cars, little to dogs, more to strange horses).

Today, the pastor's daughter came over to ride with my youngest daughter & I. That meant the pastor's daughter got Trooper (Mr. Steady Eddie). Mine got Cowboy, who promptly dumped her when mounting because...well, because he could. She assumed he would stand as still as Trooper, but Cowboy is NOT Trooper. Hurt her rump a little and her pride more, but she got back on with a bit more 'respect' for her horse.

All 3 horses seemed a little jumpy, so we did about 10 minutes in our little arena until they started listening better, then headed out.

Bandit likes to walk. Not lollygag, not dawdle, but walk! Mia felt the same way, so I was a happy camper. He can be ridden with slack reins, but he needs a lot more direction when direct reining. That is how Mia was when we first switched her from a sidepull to a bit. There are 2 garbage companies where I live, and it was garbage day for one of them. I kept Bandit on a slack rein and let him swerve left and right to keep some extra distance between himself and the garbage cans. As long as he moves forward, I'm happy.

He was happier on dirt, but we soon went back out on paved road. He chose the center and acted like there were threats on either side. I was just happy he was moving forward - as in James Fillis's motto: "_en avant_" (forward). Fillis and Chamberlin both said vices were comparatively easy to handle in a horse provided it would go forward when asked. One of Mia's scariest tricks was going backward at full speed when scared or pressured with no concern for what might be behind her.

As the wind picked up, we turned into a double procession: Bandit and I, about a hundred yards in front of the girls and Trooper and Cowboy. Bandit seemed pretty happy with that arrangement. He was aware the other horses were behind him, and preferred to wait if we got too far ahead, but he didn't feel a need to SEE them or be near them.

Going thru a second neighborhood, he did try to stall out when he heard wind chimes. But we had a short discussion, and then he moved forward...one step, a second, then 3rd / 4th / 5th and we were rolling along again with the distress-causing chimes ringing behind us. After an hour & 15 minutes, I dismounted and walked a quarter mile. Leg and hip cramps, on my right side as usual, a leftover of my one tumble off Mia in Jan 2009. The girls dismounted briefly to cross one small wash with a very rocky entry/exit. I stayed dismounted a little longer to see how Bandit would handle a short but steep climb with some loose rock. He did fine, and the girls rode up.

No regrets on my part for walking that stretch. Apart from loosening up my legs, I need to learn confidence in my horse. Next time, I'll plan on riding up the hill. He showed good sense in his footing the whole way up.

Going along another wash, Bandit nearly stalled again in a narrow section. I just kept him facing forward, waited for the other horses to get closer, then gave a hard squeeze with slack reins. One step. Two steps. Three. 30 seconds later, we were thru the narrow spot and he once again got to see that his rider wasn't asking him to do anything that would hurt him. I need confidence in him, and he needs confidence in me. Success in little things builds the foundation for success later on. Confidence comes with successes, not successive failures!

Returning down the paved street to the house, he ignored the garbage cans. The garbage truck went past us, belching smoke and squealing. Well, I'm sure a horse considers it squealing! Bandit moved to the dirt just off the pavement and we jigged going sideways for a moment - but we were progressing forward even while facing sideways. I'll take that. His second time around a garbage truck (maybe 15 feet away) and he kept moving - alert, but moving - while the truck sounded like it was in pain.

And again - we succeeded! He did as asked, and not only lived but was quickly back to 'safety'!

I think we were out for 2 hours. It was over 90 deg when we finished. All the horses were soaked with sweat. The girls had fun talking to each other and cracking jokes the entire ride. Bandit was content to move out with me and keep me company.

As we approached the wash, the wind in our face, I thought about Mia. Mia had gone on the same route before, but not often. It simply involved a constant struggle - her fear, keeping her going, dealing with the spins, etc. On a calm day, she could do it. Any wind, and she would have been a continuous effort to ride. Depending on her mood, she might have ignored the garbage truck, or might have fought me. With the wind, we certainly would have done some sideways jumps. Probably a spin or two. She would have been sweet, honest...and sometimes scared. There would have been ample drama.

Bandit? In truth, he is a much better match for me. He isn't a dead head. He needs reassurance from his rider. A nervous rider would make him nervous. But I never once thought he might turn and run. I never thought once he might jump sideways. I sometimes thought Mia was an adrenaline junkie, who needed drama to be happy. Bandit doesn't need drama. Doesn't want it. But he does like to get out! When your horse puts his face in the halter when you go get him, and when he picks up the pace leaving the arena and deliberately opens up a gap between him and the other horses, with ears forward - he's happy. Happy enough, anyways.  Me too!

Bandit is heavy on the cues, but that is much easier to work than trying to teach a genuinely scared horse to give up her fears and relax. If he'll continue *en avant*, the rest should come. Lesson for me: Make sure he is never intimidated by the bit! Don't overdo the turning work in the arena. For now, I'll keep him in the Billy Allen snaffle...and try to stay out of his mouth as much as possible.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

well done, all around!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Took him for his first solo ride yesterday. The temperature was climbing fast, so I spent 5 minutes in our little arena to loosen him (and more importantly, me!) up...then two quick laps around the block. It is 0.7 miles a lap, but he didn't spook or shy or stop his forward motion.

He will sometimes raise his head way up and turn it 90 deg left or right to look at something, and that will be an issue for us to work on. I don't mind looking around a little, but there is no way I'll tolerate him whipping his head around 90 deg. Not for anything less than a bolt of lightening or a flying rattlesnake. 

Note: I've never seen a flying rattlesnake, but Mia has assured me they exist if you look hard enough. One of my goals with Bandit will be to keep him from looking hard enough...

We also saw and approached a neighbor using a hose to rinse off his drive. Neither Bandit nor I approve of using water like that, particularly during a drought, but we both kept our mouths shut.

Overall, Bandit did well.

Today, my youngest (17) and I went for a short ride in the morning. The temp was climbing fast today. As before, Bandit took the lead. Oddly enough, TROOPER STARTLED while walking down a paved road. :shock: :shock: :shock: First time in 7 years he has done that...did a little sideways 'hop and shake' thing. Bandit hopped a step forward at the sound, but nothing more. My daughter had no trouble staying on and it was over in 2 seconds, but I guess it is a reminder than a horse who hasn't done X in 7 years might do X today...for no known reason.

We turned down a dirt road and Bandit became more tense. He's got a lot of miles on him in open country, but not walking down dirt roads with houses on either side. One guy was cutting metal pipe in his yard with a torch. Bandit did not approve. The cars that went by us on the road were all very polite (typical for this neighborhood - folks wave at riders and slow and keep their cars over to the side) - but Bandit didn't approve.

Finally, near the end of our short & hot ride, we passed a large RV parked in a yard...and a guy came out. Bandit hopped sideways...and I snapped:

"*Blast it, I've done hundreds of those with Mia AND I'M SICK OF IT! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!*"

So I pulled him around and we did a bunch of figure 8s on the paved road, 30 feet from the RV. Unlike Mia, that did not spin him up. It seemed to spin him down, which would be great. Trooper & the youngest waited patiently off to one side. Trooper's expression was one of "_Greenie! What do you expect of a 7 year old?!_" After 8 or 9 Figure 8s, I trotted him up the short but rather steep hill at that spot. Then we walked the rest of the way home.

In the picture of him with the garbage truck in post 8, you can see he has a slender build...even more so than Mia, who was herself slender. I like that. I can get my legs around him in a way I never would be able to do with some of the tank-like stock horses that are common today. It is easier to feel like you could ride something out if you are not sitting on a table top.

He has lots of potential. It is obvious he has a lot of miles under him, but it is also obvious that those miles came in a very different environment. Still, it is a relief to have a horse spin DOWN instead of spin UP when you get after him for something. He is also getting much lighter on the bit. Lots less pulling with my hand and a lot more moving my fingers. 

We are both feeling each other out. That is one of the joys of owning a horse - that you can learn each other's habits and preferences and work together to where you want to be. And in his defense, his hind feet are shoeless for the first time since he was broken to ride. They are chipping and look like they are starting to toughen up, but I'm sure they feel ouchy sometimes. But I'm tired of startles. With him, from the start, I plan on making startling and/or sideways hops unpleasant for him. If he wants to go down that road, I'm going to make it an unhappy road for him to travel. He can do better than that.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I'm not from a Western tradition, and my current horse was very spooky when I started with him, plus our harness babies back at my parents' were spooky during breaking in when first on the big training track surrounded by bush with emus, kangaroos and random crackles.

For little hop-spooks, I just make sure I'm not in the horse's mouth so it doesn't bump itself on top of everything (if it does, things usually get exacerbated), steady it, and ride it forward where I want to go, talking "calm" to it. When approaching a particularly scary object with a horse for the first time, I'll often get off and walk with it at its head, and approach the scary object with the horse, and touch it, and encourage the horse to sniff it (obviously assuming it's a stationary object, not a moving animal ). If the horse is really wary, I give the horse time and do it slowly, but I'm not leaving until the horse relaxes! (And when it does, praise, scratch that itchy spot on the shoulder, etc.) If the horse gets resistant, then I lead (or ride) little circles etc, but try to keep it relaxed, and it's very important to be calm, rather than upset with the horse. Your calm will transfer to your horse.

It's how I desensitised my horse to circular stock troughs (which he insisted were UFOs when we started because we have bath tubs on our place instead), fallen tree trunks, big tree stumps, and other such things he'd not seen before, and after a while it's old hat and no longer bothers the horse. I prefer that to the option of pushing horses past these things with a "Grrr, behave" (common practice around here) as that doesn't actually familiarise the horse with the "scary" things, and learn they are not scary after all. And after a while, your horse will generally trust your call when a new type of scary object appears, and become generally more relaxed.

That's also the sort of thing I see people do at playdays locally, setting up horse playgrounds with scary objects, first familiarising the horses with them in lead groundwork, then riding on the playground when the horses are fine.

If I'm in doubt I'll still get off and approach with the horse, as it calms the situation. This probably goes back to how we worked with our young cart horses: One person long-reining or driving in the unfamiliar place, one person as babysitter at the horse's head (the babysitter is also useful when teaching a horse the concept of long reining in the first place - to demonstrate what is wanted from the head until the horse "gets" the communications from the person behind, to walk ahead in crackly bush situations which at our place were unavoidable, etc). Babysitters are also really useful if there is a problem when a horse is first in a cart. In the old days, when horses were worked in teams, a young horse was usually teamed beside an experienced, calm horse, which creates a lot of confidence.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There is probably a balance in dealing with spooks that I'm still searching for. Most of the hop sideways type spooks seem to be for no reason at all. They came with Mia almost entirely when I was relaxed, she was relaxed...and then she might jump sideways or spin 360 degrees (usually 90 or so) over...what?

I understood giving her time and being patient when she was afraid of something ahead of us. A scared horse - and she would sometimes squirt diarrhea - is not learning. If you want it to learn, you need to reduce the fear to a point where the horse is capable of learning. With Mia, that sometimes meant asking her to back up and then, when she felt she was 'safe', dismounting and leading her. Or letting her work her way around things on a loose rein, as Tom Roberts suggested.

But that never had anything to do with the sudden, 2-5 second explosions she was capable of doing. Those explosions became less common, but they never went away. Yet they took away much of the fun of riding...

When she would do those, my instinct was to rub her neck, talk to her and try to calm her...but I'm wondering if what I wasn't REALLY doing is teach her that it was an acceptable thing to do. After all, weren't explosions followed with...praise?

125 years ago, James Fillis mentioned the conflict:

"_Never bring him so close up to the object in question that he will escape or spin round ; because in this case we will be obliged to punish him ; not for his fear, but on account of his spinning round, which we should not tolerate at any time. In punishing him, we will confuse in his mind the fear of punishment and the fear caused by the object. In a word, with nervous horses we should use much gentleness, great patience, and no violence_." (186) 

IOW, take care not to get in that hole, because there is no easy way out!

But Bandit seems like the sort of horse who will spin DOWN, not UP. He is not a nervous horse, like Mia. He is not a fighter type, like Mia. His response to a dominant rider is not to shout "Hell no!" and fight. Like Trooper, he seems more interested in figuring out a way to make things work.

So might it be possible to have any spin or jump sideways result in work that makes it an unpleasant memory, rather than 'reward' it?

Fillis also wrote my signature:
_
"In place of first putting the blame on the horse...the rider ought perhaps begin by trying to find out if he himself is not the culprit._"

While I don't enjoy the implications, is it possible I was training Mia to startle, or at least not encourage her to quit it? I suspect the startle may have been unpleasant for her...did I make it LESS so by trying to calm her right away? That isn't a thought I want to contemplate, but we don't get better at riding - and all good riders must also be trainers - if we don't look honestly at our possible failures. The best fighter squadron I was in during my 25 years in the military had as its #1 rule of debriefing: "*We discuss mistakes and results, not excuses!*"

And because we followed that rule, we became an outstanding fighter squadron.

So...what is the best way to handle a horse that startles, and is there a difference between how we should respond to a confident horse who startles vs a nervous one who does?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Interesting spook thread here, by the way. Just good stories!

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/worst-spook-585921/

Did Mia see ghosts, or imaginary beings, do you think? The imaginary bogeyman is the spookiest object of them all... ;-)


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> So might it be possible to have any spin or jump sideways result in work that makes it an unpleasant memory, rather than 'reward' it?


I know that's what a lot of people believe, but I don't think desensitising a horse "rewards" it, and I think it's great for the horse-rider relationship, plus it really works, instead of just window dressing.

Fear is an involutary, inbuilt response that served the horse well in evolutionary terms. If we respond punitively to that, the horse won't get any less afraid, and in fact start to be afraid of being under the direction of a human. Horses tend to spook at things they consider scary, without humans in the equation as well. When spooks are incorrectly handled, horses can get nervous about additional things:

1) Associated pain in the mouth. Tom Roberts writes that it's really important to check your instinctive human reaction to grab the bit when the horse startles - the bang in the mouth just adds to the unpleasantness of the situation from the horse's perspective, and exacerbates its negative response. Plus the horse will resist force. He suggests to train yourself to make the bit light at the start of a spook, and half-halt the horse after that, so everything remains gentle. I've done it both ways - the instinctive grabbing the horse's bit versus deliberately being light - and I really benefited from his advice.

2) That crazy rider who is being an impediment to getting away from a dangerous situation, from the horse's point of view. If the rider isn't actively showing the horse that the spooky thing isn't something to fear, the horse isn't learning this alternative perspective. (The same principle as working a green team horse with a calm, experienced one.) Instead, it starts to distrust the rider.

I know many people crash their horses through their spooks, and eventually the horses, with repeated exposure to the objects rather than because of what the rider did, will desensitise to scary objects with time. I just really prefer to be gentle and a calming influence, and I think it improves the horse-rider relationship. Personally I want partnership and cooperation, not blind submission.

Nervous horses may need more time and work than confident ones, for whom eventually an "Oy, get over it, you've seen this before" works as well.

The circles etc, by the way, I do to distract the horse from the situation by giving it something else to focus on - not as "I'm going to control its feet." It's like distracting a toddler, really. You say, "Look over here! Let's do this!" and then get back to it later. Funnily, when you get back to it, the horse seems to say, "Oh, this again!" and not be as startled (as it hasn't actually been eaten yet ;-)).

And lots of horses spook because their riders are nervous. The rider may be the one that says, "Oh no, not the garbage truck again!" and get tense, and the horse then takes that on board, as your emotions will be contagious.

Oh and work shouldn't be a punishment, it should be fun and positive.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I pretty much concluded Mia would doze off for a few seconds, then 'wake up' 50 yards down the trail and be surprised at how she got there. 

How many of us, driving 20-30 (or in one place I lived, 50) miles one way to work have arrived home late at night and had no memory of the drive? I think that happened sometimes with Mia. Her hardest spooks came when we were both very relaxed...which eventually trained me to never relax on a horse. :evil:

I'm hoping Bandit will teach me a new lesson. :wink:

I've also wondered if Mia wasn't an adrenaline junkie. If there was no drama to the ride, she'd create some...for the fun of it? Because living in a corral was boring, so rides needed excitement?

In truth, I just never figured it out. She was a wonderfully eccentric horse, often defying the common wisdom on horses. Use a curb bit on a green horse with a green rider? She took to it like a duck to water! Locals would tell me to just "force her to go up to the thing that scares her" - but Mia proved she could fly backwards no matter what I did. After all, SHE was the one whose feet were on the ground! 

She taught me deep down to appreciate the individuality of horses. Walking Bandit thru the neighborhood a few nights ago, I ran into some neighbors. They said they we fascinated by how alert Mia seemed to everything - that just seeing her walking down the road, it was obvious a mind was constantly at work.

I obviously didn't do things ALL wrong because she was much better at the end than at our beginning, but I also never solved the "Problem of Miss Mia"! Like a marriage, I'm not even sure such a thing is possible. To quote another old musical:

"How to handle a woman?
There's a way," said the wise old man,
"A way known by ev'ry woman
Since the whole rigmarole began."
"Do I flatter her?" I begged him answer.
"Do I threaten or cajole or plead?
Do I brood or play the gay romancer?"
Said he, smiling: "No indeed.
How to handle a woman?
Mark me well, I will tell you, sir:
The way to handle a woman
Is to love her...simply love her...
Merely love her...love her...love her."


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

One thing I did well with her - at a startle or spook, I gave her MORE rein, not less. THEN I would be directive with the rein if needed. It often was not.

And FWIW, before introducing her to curb bits, we did MANY bolts - the whole "run in blind fear" thing, not just a hop. And what actually worked best to stop her in one of her "I Lost My Mind and Cannot Find It!" BOLTS was to spread (pry?!) my knees apart and softly call her name. 

M...I...I...I...A...A...A...A...A....A...A...A...A...

When an ear flicked back, we were 3-4 strides away from a full stop.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Ah yes bsms, that thing you said about your knees reminds me: The other instinctive thing a rider will do during a spook is to hang on tight with the legs, and that is actually an extreme go-forward cue... so if you can remain relaxed physically as well, that's super. Many horses that are spooking with inexperienced riders are getting very strong and simultaneous "stop" and "go forward" cues which the rider isn't even aware they are doing, and the horse will go, "What the Dickens?"

Are you going to visit Mia sometime?

I reckon your Bandit is going to work out well with you. I am very much looking forward to reading about your adventures!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I hope to get a chance to go north and visit Utah (the ranch where Trooper was born) this summer. If so, I'll see if we can stop by the ranch in northern Arizona where Mia now lives.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

*The Honeymoon Is Over*​
I posted this on another thread, but some of it fits here (with more to follow):



bsms said:


> Trooper came to us from a friend's ranch in Utah, but we didn't have facilities ready for him right away so they loaned him to a ranch in Colorado. While there, the idiots spurred him bloody - and this on a horse who was named "Trooper" because he just naturally did what he was told! Some time later, after arriving here, he looked like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some things to add on a thread about Bandit & I:

Something very nice about today's ride is that I was never afraid. Mia could scare me. She had lived her life in a corral and she really didn't understand what a cactus was. If she bolted or just got scared, she was willing to try to go across country in the desert. That would have been a good way to kill us both.

The best solution I know of would have been to let her loose in 10+ acres of Sonoran desert, then go pull spines out of her once a day. My guess is that after 2-3 days, there would be no spines to pull. After a week or two, she wouldn't offer to back up off a 6' ledge - assuming she survived long enough to learn.

But I didn't have 10+ acres of desert to let her roam in, nor did I know of anyone who did. And there was no safe way of letting her learn about the real world with me on her back.

Bandit is quite different. He gets nervous, or may want to do what he wants to do, but he has never shown any indication he is losing his mind. He has lived in the real world, and he understands that stupidity hurts - and he doesn't want to get hurt. He may fuss some, but he has no intentions of running into cactus or falling thru stupidity.
-----------------------
NOTE: Just spent 40 minutes outside. I had tried mixing the horses again, but after a couple of hours I saw Cowboy (13 hands) going after Bandit. I opened the window and yelled at Cowboy, who backed off - but then Trooper moved in, tag team style. So I yelled at Trooper, who backed off. Who says horses don't know their names?

When I went out, Bandit immediately 1) walked into "his" area of the recently combined corrals, and 2) kept me between the other horses and himself. I reattached the corral panels so he could have his safe area back.

I may need to get used to keeping them separate. It may be true that 3 geldings often mean 2 geldings pick on the third, and that, in the human expression, "Good fences make good neighbors"! My wife then came out and put Cowboy in the round pen and worked him some. I rubbed Bandit's back, found two small bites while he regularly curled his head around to put it next to my shoulder. It wouldn't be all bad to have him think I mean safety in life...
--------------------------
At one point, there was some crumpled up galvanized metal some jerk had dumped in the desert. I loathe folks who act like that. In any case, Bandit was very nervous about approaching it. I might have been able to kick him enough to get him by. I also had a leather strap on the saddle - used to use it with Mia about 4 times a year by hitting MY leg with it. That was enough to get her to jump forward. If I hit HER with it, she would go in reverse. Hit myself with it, she would go forward. Mia wasn't entirely normal. 

In any case, I asked my youngest to take Trooper past. Then Bandit followed on slack reins. Like Tom Roberts said, he kept as much space as possible between him and the metal. Once past a cactus, he went off trail to avoid the metal...but he went, and with slack reins. Coming home, with him in the lead, he went to the far side of the trail but not off it to pass, giving it the stink eye. But that passage of Tom Roberts remains the best advice I've seen about getting a nervous horse to learn forward:








​ 
Another thing I noticed: Trooper is not nearly as calm as he used to be. He was used to going out with Mia, and I think Mia was his security blanket. He's jumpier without her, but I think he'll learn. And my youngest is learning that "Steady Eddie" isn't quite as steady without Mia...:wink:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

BTW - Internet picture of Teddy Bear Cholla. Not stuff to mess with!








​


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I would not sit around worrying about Mia and why she was half crazy. It sounds like you made a good trade. She is happy and you are happy.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> *The Honeymoon Is Over*​
> I posted this on another thread, but some of it fits here (with more to follow):
> 
> (snip)


Super, thoughtful, interesting post. I wish everyone applied their grey matter to their horse interactions the way you consistently do!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sounds positive BSMS!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Just got back from a relaxed, 50 minute ride thru the neighborhood and nearby desert, with Bandit in the lead of Trooper. He stayed on slack reins the entire time. The piece of galvanized junk that he avoided so carefully yesterday? He deviated about 6" today - giving it the stink eye, but not the wide berth of yesterday. Score another round for Tom Roberts!

Used a Billy Allen snaffle that arrived yesterday. Same basic design as the previous one, but also very different:










Instead of:










It seems to fit better into a mouth that is kind of full already. It is much lighter. I suspect it puts even more reliance on the tongue and less on the bars. In any case, he seemed happier with it. I also like the sleeves on the D-ring. Ain't gonna be no pinching there! 

The other one went in Trooper, who has a roomier mouth. Like every other bit I've used with Trooper, Trooper didn't seem to care one way or another. There is a reason Trooper was named Trooper. :wink: And there is a reason the rancher friend I've known since the 70s sold him to us as a trustworthy horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

We seem to go forever, round and round on spooks, and yes, you have to realize the type of spook you are dealing with, and not all solutions works for all horses, as they spook for different reasons
There is the true fear spook, esp those there something appears suddenly. Any horse is going to react, but you modify as to what they do afterward, with training, body control, trust.
Before I ever rider a horse out' whoa is absolute , on the ground first, then while riding. It does not mean' steady, slow down, but stop and don't move
I'm not going to post that Larry trocha video again, on taking the head away, able to move hips, as any one can google it.
The poin is, the snaffle is the best tool for this, but I admit that maybe not on a horse that has been abused, ridden incorrectly in one, which included never just hanging on both reins, trying to outpull the horse
I've ridden several reactive horses, as Smilie certainly was int he beginning-heck, I had to be careful even pinning numbers on her saddle pad, or hanging pommel bags on her saddle, for along time
Once, just riding in the field next to us, when she was three, besides that coyote incident, because of the build of the land, one can see traffic on the highway on the horizon-just the tops of those trucks, so she reacted, but I got her mind back to me. Body control snaffle and whoa
A a showground, once,out by my trailer, when I first got on Chalrie, who is very reactive and spooky, or was (much better now! ), a woman came walking toward s us, and opened her umbrella as she approached-yup, you will always find 'stupid' If I could not have gotten control of Charlie, we would have been 'gone'
You are always going to run into something a horse has never seen before, so I don't try to de sensitize them to everything under the sun, but work on body control
Had to warm up Einstein, at the western fair grounds, outside, before he rode his three year old test, and there was a safeway party in the outside grounds, juts across form where I had to ride=complete with hot air balloons and loud music. Took a while to get him totally focused, but he scored an 83

Of course, there is the rider confidence at play also. If you tense, then the horse has no way of knowing that you are tensing because you fear he might spook at those elk, a rock, ect, just that his leader is tense, so there really is something to fear. This of course, can be hard thing to control, esp as one gets older and has had some wreaks in the past!

There is also a horse, as the one in the post 'spooks at everything'
This is the once well trained horse that has learned, through incorrect riding and handling, to use spooking to intimidate arider. That is the horse you have to get after for spooking, and making spooking itself, trying to spin, bolt, run backward-uncomforatble and , most of all, unsccessful in having the rider get off, or put that horse away, or not ride past whatever the horse used as an excuse not to ride out
I gave Charlie the benefit of a green horse, for at least a year, far as spooking when snow slid off the arena roof, she heard some noise, ect, and then got after her for reacting in any attempt to take big sideways leaps,> Now all I have to tell her is 'quit', and she just might flinch.thus almost spooking in place
Of course, if some grouse suddenly drums and flies up, or a deer pops out of the woods right ahead of her, I'm not going to get after her for a spook, UNLESS, she follows that spook buy trying to spin or leave
The snaffle is a great bit, but, you have to have it adjusted correctly (no wrinkles in the corner of the mouth, and then ride with legs also, getting the entire body soft


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Actually, I need to adjust Bandit's snaffle so there is a great big wrinkle. Why? Because he has short lips. If I adjust it for no wrinkles, the bit sits against his teeth."_It is very important to assess the placement of the bit in the mouth buy looking IN THE MOUTH, not simply at the wrinkles on the lips. Should your gelding have a short lip line (or your bit sit too low in a longer mouth) the bit will painfully and repeatedly bump into the canine teeth – this can deaden the nerve and kill the tooth. In humans, a dead nerve means a root canal- ow!_"

https://bitbankaustralia.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/open-up-and-say-ah/​That is part of the reason - other than my fascination with bits - that I bought a second "Billy Allen Snaffle". It looks like it gives more room for all the lip and tongue in Bandit's mouth. Below is the old one adjusted up...one hole lower and it is against the teeth:










And, of course, I disagree that the snaffle is the best bit for training a stop. It can work, or not. Horses make choices. I doubt a snaffle bit is ever the best bit for stopping a truly competitive horse. Once the horse is going full out with enthusiasm, a snaffle just isn't a mechanically efficient design:








​ However, I don't think Bandit is a fiercely competitive horse. That is part of why I think he'll make a great match for me. I want a horse who can run without wanting to run off, so to speak.

I've ordered a LightRider bitless bridle for him...shipping now from Australia. It may be all I need to get the behaviors I want from him. My youngest agrees that it looks like we could get Trooper and Bandit to trot or even canter together without either going bonkers. Or he might stay in his new bit. But horses make choices, too. A horse who is personally determined to win a race may need all the help one can get to slow him/her down - particularly when running in a world filled with rocks, washes and cactus.

In the open country Mia has gone to live in, she should get a chance to open it up and run until exhausted. That might do wonders for her. Around here, she could have killed us both. Bandit may well open doors that have been closed to me for years. I'd give a great deal to be able to report 'Bandit and Trooper and my youngest daughter and I trotted 6 miles today, and cantered together in spots'. That would be heavenly. Not there yet.

BTW - Bandit's previous owner will be here today to do their feet. Hopefully I'll get an update on Mia and can ask more about Bandit's background.​


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> I've ordered a LightRider bitless bridle for him...shipping now from Australia.​


​ 
Will be very interested to hear your opinions on this, esp in comparison to the different bits you have used.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

*UPDATE ON MIA*
​ 
Talked with Mia's new owner while he trimmed our 3 horses' feet.

When Mia was first mixed with their stallion, it was like two stallions mixing. She was ready to kill. But a few days later, when fully in heat, she went from "_I'll kill you sucker!_" to "_Hey sailor! Going my way?_"  So she has now been bred. Don't know if it took.

When she first had a chance to mix with the herd, nothing doing! Not going to happen! But after she was bred, the stallion decided it was time for her to mix into his herd...and before long, she was a contented member of a herd. She is now separated while they figure out what to do about branding, which is needed if she is going to mix full time on open land. She has also learned about lakes - namely, they are a good place to cool off when hot. This from the horse who never met a puddle she couldn't jump...:?

She has raced other horses for 2 miles, determined to maintain the lead, until her lack of conditioning forced her to slow. She's done a 4 mile canter. She'll be a brood mare primarily, so they won't work on getting her into racing condition. Several people have ridden her, including the wife, and they like how smooth and responsive she is. She now understands that running is fun, but it is also work. She is interested in working cattle and seems to enjoy being around sheep. He is impressed at how she tries to work with her rider.

So at 14, Mia is finally learning how to be a horse. I spent YEARS getting her to hold her ground when a strange horse appeared. Longer to get her to ride past strange horses. It took a stallion almost no time to mix her into a herd. Guess there are some things a stallion can teach a horse that just don't go so easy for me...:shock: 

I'm envious of the open land. I wish my body was 26 instead of 57. But I'm very glad for Mia. While talking about her, the farrier was beaming. He never thought he'd give up Swiper (now Bandit), but he has no regrets. Neither do I.

Also found out Swiper (Bandit) has run an endurance race before. I'm told "Swiper" didn't make much sense as a name because he turned out to be too challenging for a kid's horse. Maybe...but compared to Mia, he's a relaxing ride. My youngest is now asking if we could get Trooper and Bandit to work up to an endurance race. If we ever do, I won't care if I come in last - I'll still cry for joy! 

PS - When I try the Lightrider, I'll post a review. I'm told that Bandit gets worked up enough in a race that bitless won't work for racing...but may work for everything else.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I was thinking about it last night. Just how valuable is "natural horsemanship" with a horse who has never been a natural horse?

Prior to coming to me at age 7, Mia lived by herself or with Lilly in a corral in Apache Junction. She then lived in a corral with 1-2 geldings. She was never part of a herd - a real herd, with a stallion and a number of experienced mares. She never roamed freely over miles of land - which she will get to do if branded, and has done for limited times already now.

And while I dug some holes that I later struggled to fill in, thinking about it makes me feel better about what I did achieve with her. After all, when mixed with an experienced stallion, she acted like another stallion...until her hormones kicked in. Of course, the stallion didn't treat her like another stallion. Bandit's sire knew Mia was a mare, even if Mia didn't know it!

And if an experienced stallion knows how to bide his time and pick his fights, then how wrong have I been to take things slow with Mia? There were things I didn't achieve with her, but my position on her back gave me far less leverage than a stallion has...yet she would resist the stallion, until her body told her it was time. And the stallion saw no profit in pushing it earlier. He'd get what he wanted without a fight if he handled her right.

I think my farrier thinks I needed to push Mia harder and need to push Bandit harder. Yet if I can get Bandit comfortable with passing strange things on his own without confrontation, and it only takes an extra ride to do it, how is that wrong? I'm familiar with the way the Cavalry trained horses and (unlike many modern riders) I neither reject it nor think it cruel. In the course of a year, they would give the horse confidence in his rider so that the horse would try just about anything. But the phrase they taught at Samur was that "*The horse should think God is on his back, and the Devil is at his belly!*" - meaning you used spurs to punish any disobedience, while also gradually building up what you asked the horse to do (usually in the company of 100 other horses) so that you rarely needed punishment.

But I don't have 100 other horses and riders to go out with me, and I just don't want to wear spurs and use them for punishment if there is another way. From now on, Bandit will rarely be ridden with more than one other horse. Picking my "fights" carefully and reluctantly, combined with teaching him over time that I won't ask him to go anywhere dangerous - more along the Tom Roberts school of training: "*This profits you. This profits you not.*" - seems a better approach.

Anyways, that was what I thought about in the middle of the night when I woke up and couldn't sleep. I often felt like I failed Mia. But I'm told the folks who have ridden her are happy with how willing and responsive she is. If she left here as a willing, responsive horse, just how bad was my failure?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Not long after my last post, we pulled the shoes off of Bandit's front feet. Pulling them off the back didn't bother him much. Off the front? He limped in his corral for a week, and it is the softest ground around.

I started him back with some walking on pavement sans rider. As they became less "Oowwwiiieee", I've resumed riding him. He does OK on pavement now, but ti doesn't take many rocks on a trail for him to start limping.

That is OK, because there is a lot we can work on while riding on pavement. The farrier told me his horse could be a handful at times before he met Mia. The reality seems to be that Bandit will calm down faster than Mia, but he can get worked up. A fairly typical scenario is for him to go pretty nice for about 15 minutes and then decide he doesn't want to go on ahead. We have a 20-60 second discussion, and he goes forward. We'll do that a few times over the next 15 minutes, then he relaxes and mostly does what he is told.

I took him out alone today. I talked to his previous owner yesterday and he agreed that Bandit is, if anything, calmer alone than with another horse. We had a discussion about 15 minutes into the ride, then he was good for a while...until he saw a jogger coming at us about 1/4 mile ahead. He went on full alert, which with him means his neck goes vertical and he gets light on the front end. We went forward perhaps another 50 yards, then a person behind us got in a car and slammed the door shut.

Bandit bolted. Sort of. I only had one hand on the reins, so as he jumped forward, I popped him hard in the mouth with a jerk on both reins. That broke his initial jump forward. Before he could get a full leap forward in again, I had my second hand on the reins (there is a reason I leave it on the horn - keeps it close to the withers) and I spun him left.

That is part of why I'm riding him in neighborhoods. On a trail, with cactus all around, it is hard to work on things like this. In a neighborhood, I have more maneuvering room. We spun around a few circles to the left, going off the road into a neighbors yard (not far, though). He almost slipped, but we kept our balance and his need to keep his feet under him got his focus back. We then switched to a right hand circle. Then I kicked him in the gut while facing toward the car and we started going toward the thing that made the noise.

As the car passed, we turned toward the jogger. The jogger had already turned down another road, so we trotted forward. His trot is harsh and fast. He braces his back. I think it is because his previous owner is heavier than me, and Bandit is a very slender horse. 

I had to make a conscious effort to NOT hold him with the reins. I had already gotten in his mouth fast and hard and a steady pull holding back would be counterproductive. So I gave him some slack and let him trot forward, then stopped him. Then asked for (and got) a walk.

Mia's last attempt at a bolt was Dec 2012 IIRC, so it has been a while since I've done anything like that. The good news is that he calms down faster than Mia...but he can get just as wound up, albeit briefly. 

It made me glad I've always practiced two point. I'm convinced nothing else helps a rider match their balance to the horse's the way two point does, and that is a good thing when your horse starts to lose his footing.

At a walk, we followed the jogger a little ways and then wandered our way home. At the entrance back to the corral, he decided it was time to turn in and call it quits - so we had another discussion, then went around the block another time. Coming back to The Quitting Point, I turned him AWAY from the entrance and did a 270 deg turn to enter. We might as well get it established now - Bandit doesn't decide when the ride is over. No short cuts getting back to the corral either. If he hadn't done a calm 270, we'd have made another lap around the block (0.7 miles).

Lots of folks talk about "body control" and getting it in the arena. While the arena is a great place to teach a new concept, I find it pretty worthless for teaching disciplined obedience. Mia & Bandit both see no gain in disobeying in an arena. They have no stake in the outcome, so they just do what they are told. 

It is outside the arena where they start wanting to do something different than what I want to do. It is outside the arena that they startle or try a bolt, and it is there that I need to deal with it. If I hadn't swapped Mia for Bandit, I was planning on spending this summer working her on paved and dirt roads. On a desert trail, surrounded by cactus, I just don't have the room to have a 'discussion' with my horse - too much chance of dragging a leg, mine or the horse's, against a cactus. On a road, we can do whatever it takes to get the idea across.

On the whole, it was a good ride today. Bandit didn't profit any from trying to do something I didn't want him to do. His attempt at a bolt profited him nothing. Trying to go right when I wanted left did not avail him. Trying to rush home bought him another 0.7 miles of walking and light trotting. But I also didn't ask him to do anything he wasn't capable of doing, and obeying never put him in danger. In time, that should help.

Although Bandit has had a lot of miles put on him, I'm not sure they were quality miles. At least, not for riding here. There are a lot of times around here where he'll hear or smell something he cannot see, which didn't happen often on the reservation. He needs to learn to listen to fingers instead of hands, and legs instead of fingers. He needs to learn to use his judgment, but not to try to override mine. But he has a lot of potential. He isn't very fond of the other horses - so riding him out by himself is no big deal to him. Taking him out alone is a lot like taking him out with other horses. And 7 years with Mia has made me confident I can handle anything I think Bandit is going to dish out. Should be interesting...

"_Did Mia see ghosts, or imaginary beings, do you think? The imaginary bogeyman is the spookiest object of them all._.. :wink:"​ 
I think the answer is yes. I think Bandit wants to see them too. A key to getting him to ride well will be not letting his mind wander. When he starts doing the "Lookey-Loo", I need to get his feet busy and become directive. I think Bandit is entirely capable of spooking himself, and I don't want to go down that road. Not again...


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hi bsms, as I was reading through your posts I was wondering if a front set of hoof boots might make your guy more comfortable? I don't know what your terrain is like. But where we bought our farm, we have laterite crust that breaks off in little sharp pieces mostly between 5 and 20cm across, and those bits are randomly embedded in mostly soft footing, but at a generous rate... I barefoot my horse on the sand and peat tracks we have on our own place, but boot him the moment I go into the higher, rockier country - so we can bowl along fast if we want without any ouch.

In our kind of terrain, most endurance riders will boot (rather than shoe, which doesn't protect the horse from sole bruising, which is a very common reason for people "vetting out" of a competition).

Your ruminations about horse training - an interesting read as usual. It seems obedience isn't something you necessarily have to think about to get it. I just never think about it, plus I prefer the concept of cooperation anyway. I think about how my horse and I are going to have a lovely ride, or how we're going to work on XYZ in the arena. I think if you have high expectations of horses or people you are training, and expect cooperation rather than conflict, and use a lot of encouragement, fun and humour, and your boundaries are just _there_, you really end up going places (personal experience training humans and horses - and watching others too). I think a lot of trainers of horses and humans are so preoccupied with boundaries and "coming out on top" that the work that gets done is joyless and because the students _have to_, rather than because they really _want to_! I'm not interested in power, having it, wielding it, and I think the species that gets the biggest bee in their bonnet about it is _**** sapiens_! 

I was thinking about natural horsemanship. I think one of the biggest proponents of it, if I've got this right, seems to think he can speak "horse" and that a horse can only learn if you speak "horse" to it. My experience is that working with horses is like working with people who have a different language to you: Both sides end up learning bits of the other language in their communication processes - and nonverbal communication becomes extra important. A really cool book investigating horse/human communication (and lots of other equine behavioural stuff) is Marthe Kiley-Worthington's "Horse Watch-What It Is To Be Equine." She conducted experiments, for instance, that showed horses weren't just capable (like dogs) of learning human words, but they understood basic syntax as well!

When I was learning to ride as a child, there was this running joke. I'll try to translate it into English as best I can. "The horse has sheer vertical drops to its right and left and is after the rider's life!" :rofl: This was bandied about as an alternative to the often-repeated little German rhyme, "Das hoecheste Glueck der Erde/Ist auf dem Ruecken der Pferde." (The highest bliss on Earth is found on the backs of horses.) ;-)

Happy riding! :cowboy::racing:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Think of it as a continuum:

Can do easy-------------------------Can do, not easy---------------Can do but really hard------------------Cannot do, too scary​ 
The horse gets to decide where it is on that scale. Can do easy never grows a horse's confidence in himself or in his rider. 'Can do but really hard but we did it' will grow both. Push the horse into cannot do, and the horse will rebel against any pressure you bring...thus teaching it to refuse your will.

Being a human, my knowledge of what is REALLY too hard is better than the horse. I know what the way is, what the real obstacles are...even know that a person jogging down the road will NOT attack good horses and eat them!

But if the horse always gets to choose, it will never choose anything beyond easy. It will choose, as Bandit wanted to choose, to turn home early and go directly home. Eventually, it will choose to stay in a corral and eat and risk nothing...but that isn't why I own a horse. So I need to push a horse past its comfort zone without pushing it into the blind fear zone. And I do need obedience. Otherwise I'm just sitting on a horse, not riding and directing him.

If a horse bolts because A) there is a jogger ahead and he's worried, and then B) a car door shuts behind him, I need to do whatever it takes to override his behavior. His behavior can kill us both. If that means I need to dominate him and even hurt his mouth to stop his bolt, so be it.

If a horse refuses to go forward, then I need to be aware of WHY and handle it appropriately. A couple of days ago, Bandit refused to go forward past a yard being sprayed for bugs. He would go some distance forward, but not all the way...even though we are 1/4 mile from home that way and a much longer distance if we turned around. But my heels alone were not creating enough pressure for him to go forward, and my daughter on level headed Cowboy then said Cowboy was refusing as well. So I backed Bandit up about 100 feet, stopped him, made sure he was looking at me, and dismounted. Then I attached the reins to his halter and walked in front of him. He kept me between him and the yard. At the scariest point, I stopped him and waited. Then asked for a head down. When he gave it, and snorted and blew, I walked him another 10 feet forward, mounted and we walked on. Cowboy and Trooper followed Bandit.

My ultimate goal is for Bandit to tell me "I'm scared" - and then go forward regardless if I tell him it is safe. That's because I know more than he does. But to get there, I need to "push the envelope" as the test guys say, without breaking the envelope. That is the only way to grow his confidence.

It isn't a question of dominance. It is a question of whose judgment prevails, and mine needs to...because I am smarter. I deserve his trust. On the same ride, he didn't want to walk on a road that crossed a wash. Maybe he smelled javelina. Maybe coyotes. I don't know. But I knew there was nothing in the wash that was going to get him, and it did need to be crossed to get home. On that occasion, poping him in the gut with my heels was enough to keep him moving. Halfway across the wash, his head dropped and his back relaxed. Whatever he was afraid of no longer bothered him. 

What was it? I'll never know. I don't care. It wasn't a valid fear - valid as in "justified by the real world". I can make those decisions better than he can, and he needs me to do so. But he needs to acquire confidence, and confidence only comes from success at times when Bandit thinks the outcome is in doubt. He doesn't care about my expectations. He only cares about our developing track record of success (or failure).

Any good coach will push his players beyond their expectations of themselves. A good rider is a good coach. He trains, but also pushes his horse to go beyond what the horse thinks is possible. Only then will the horse grow, mentally and emotionally. There are a lot of things we can do together that he will like, but only if he first grows in trust and confidence.

I need obedience first. Once I have obedience, I can earn trust. Without obedience, trust will never develop.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A few more thoughts: Boots. For now, I find it easier to keep him on smooth roads. The trails here are as hard as the roads, but with stones on top to poke the feet. However, those parts don't last forever. The corral is almost as hard as the trails, only without the rocks to poke. He is making progress, but it will take time for his feet to thicken. Until then, there is a lot he can learn while on paved road...and I like what paved road is doing for his hooves. After a couple of weeks, his front feet are starting to look like feet. The hind feet, with a 3 week lead in going shoeless, more so.

If I conclude his front feet can't hack it, then I'll have his front put in shoes...but I think he will get there.

Dominance: If I wanted blind obedience, I'd get a dirt bike. I want him free to make inputs, but I also need him to trust my judgment, because mine is better than his. He seems to enjoy getting out, and he has little interest in the arena...he wants to get OUT. But doing that safely requires him to obey me. Once we get the obedience, I can (hopefully) earn his trust.

We have an area about 2 miles from here where the ground is softer and smoother, and where it is more level and some of the paths go for 10 miles - more than I need. To get there, I need to be able to ride him safely on the roads. Once we get to that point - which I didn't reach with Mia unless all 3 horses went as a group - I can exercise him properly. I think he'll enjoy that. But I need more confidence in him and him in me before we try.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

More thoughts on barefoot after watching today:

My DIL is visiting, so we took all 3 horses out today. Bandit took the lead, as usual, but he was tense and nervous. The wind was blowing, but I don't think it was blowing enough to make him THAT nervous. After about 20 minutes, he calmed down some and was walking relaxed...but I saw a trash can a ways up ahead with pink insulation hanging out of it in long strips, blowing in the wind. I figured I'd have a fight getting him to go past that, and since he was currently calm and relaxed...I rewarded him for being calm. I dismounted while we were in "stroll" mode. That was a good call. He walked past the flying pink stuff, but he kept me between him and the danger! But I continued to walk him.

We eventually left the paved roads and turned down a desert trail. Mostly smooth, but patches were rocky. Watching him from the ground, I realized he stretches out in a good, fast walk - but without worrying about his feet. He behaved the way I do when I jog in jogging shoes with lots of cushion. I stretch out and don't worry. The shoes will protect me! And that is how Bandit was walking...only without shoes.

So when we got to rocky patches, I slowed him down and tried to convince him to take baby steps. The key to walking across rocky terrain with bare feet is taking your time.

He struggled with that concept. I don't think he is used to being allowed to walk slowly. As he got better, I led us down a stretch that has a 50' long section that is nothing but sharp rocks. He didn't like its looks, but I led him one step at a time. He doesn't have the idea down yet. It worked, though. He got across the very rough patch without a stumble...but I don't think he understands yet WHY he was able to cross it without hurting his feet.

This is an area of training I hadn't thought about: I need to teach my horse that it is OK, even a positive GOOD thing, to slow down and pick your way across rougher terrain.

Although I want obedience, I don't want mindless obedience. When the going gets tough, tell me! You can trust me. I'll understand and we'll go slow together. If we hit a patch where every step is jagged rock, take your time and move one foot at a time. I won't get mad. I'll trust you to be careful, and you can trust me to support you and be happy with what you are doing.

Checking his feet again at the end of the ride, I was very happy with how his feet are doing. He is getting a lot of wear near the front, but a little to one side on most feet. That is OK. The impartial road is trimming his feet where they need trimming for how he walks. Maybe I'm naive, but that seems a good way to let his inner foot direct where the trimming needs to be done. The V is spreading out and getting deeper.

But I learned something by walking beside him today. He needs to learn how to walk when barefoot. And we have a confidence issue to work on, because I think he assumes he'll be in trouble if he slows and picks his way carefully.

When we got to a smoother section of trail, I mounted up. The wind had died down some and I rode the rest of the way home. He was a lot calmer. Another thought occurred to me. Maybe it would be good to walk him the first half mile before mounting up. Let him get the boogers out of his brain before I mount. He dislikes riding around in our little arena. It makes him jumpy. It might be easier on him if I walk him 1/4 - 1/2 mile, and then mount.

I want him to learn to go out WITH me, not UNDER me. Big difference. I think he understands how to be UNDER a rider. I'm not sure he understands how to go out WITH one. Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the feeling I'm asking questions and he isn't used to giving answers. I think it is making him nervous, but it is part of how I want to ride - with a give and take, both of us working together. Even if it means my saying, "Bandit, find a way across the rocks for both of us...barefoot!"


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Sounds like you made a good decision. Good luck with Brandy!!:loveshower:


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> Although I want obedience, I don't want mindless obedience. When the going gets tough, tell me! You can trust me. I'll understand and we'll go slow together. If we hit a patch where every step is jagged rock, take your time and move one foot at a time. I won't get mad. I'll trust you to be careful, and you can trust me to support you and be happy with what you are doing.


Love this!

Don't know how much you are into verbal cues, but all our guys know the word "watch" as a signal that a change in the footing is coming and to pay attention. Its like a verbal half-halt (I ride with a loose rein all the time if I can help it, so am much too lazy to pick up the reins for a real half-halt :wink. I also want my horse to be an active part of the team and have no issues with slowing when the footing calls for it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Bandit's feet continue to improve. His front feet are almost ready to handle trails around here. We walked him without a rider for 4 miles yesterday and there was only one short patch of about 1/4 mile where he had any problems.

I'm going to pull some posts from this thread. Any underlining is mine: 

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/trotters-arabians-donkeys-other-people-479466/

These apply to what I've been thinking about concerning Bandit, and wrestled with while riding Mia for 7 years. These are posts 200-203...you can save time and get the gist of it from the underlined parts of the quote, although I think the quotes merit a full reading if someone has in interest in the subject:



SueC said:


> _There seems to be a lot of resistance both on HF and (I think to a lesser extent) in the "real world" to the idea of gentle horsemanship. I've picked out a piece of conversation I had with someone the other day to address some of those misconceptions...
> 
> _Quote: I want to respectfully submit that in my view it is not about being Alpha, or dominant, or The Boss, but about teaching my horse that sometimes, with some things, he does not have a choice.
> 
> ...





SueC said:


> _Here's a reflection I wrote on the questions of, "Push or back off or be patient?" and "Can I do gentle methods with a horse that's been brought up on rough ones?"_
> 
> Well, you know how TR says, "*When in doubt revert to quiet persistence*?" I think that's very sage advice. He dealt with a lot more "problem horses" than we did in our small operation over the course of his long life, and that's his take, and we've never had any negative consequences from following that advice with any horse, "problem" or not. You know the proverb "Festina lente" - "Make haste slowly"? I think it's a similar principle. Patience and taking time pay off in the long run, because they don't destroy your learning foundation. And it's putting excess pressure on horses that makes them behave in dangerous ways, as they then cycle through desperate escape strategies. When the horse sees you as a trustworthy ally, and as a protector, it's going to calmly go past a lot more scary stuff than it ever would on its own, just from observation. It just takes time to develop that trust, but I think that this trust is one of the most underrated qualities in the contemporary horse community, who'd rather use crow bar approaches.
> 
> ...





SueC said:


> _Having a whale of a time on our 40+ group at the moment, and it just happens we are discussing spook management strategies, and I wanted to re-post one of my contributions here.
> _
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *AnitaAnne*
> ...





bsms said:


> The old US Cavalry manual had an odd split. OTOH, it said, "_The two best means of correction are the spur and the whip, employed together or used separately._"
> 
> However, a few paragraphs later, it says, "_The fact must be borne in mind that punishments are very rarely necessary. Most of the faults committed by the horse are due to his ignorance and lack of training...in either case, severity becomes an injustice and causes such harmful results that it is better not to punish at all than to punish wrongly._"
> 
> ...


I've edited some of the responses to save space.

I'm a recreational rider. I don't ride to work, so why should I use an employer/employee model? I spent 25+ years in the military, giving and taking orders. And there IS a place for them with horses. I know more about what lies ahead and what needs to get done than the horse does. It needs to be my brain and his muscle more than the reverse...but that doesn't preclude us from teamwork.

But if a horse has been trained using a Boss/Subordinate model, it might take some months to get the horse into a Teamwork model. Something I noticed with Bandit two days ago was that he was happier when I kept contact and was very directive about going down the street. But darn it, what we're going to do in a spot like this is pretty darn obvious:








​ 
He shouldn't NEED me directing him, nor should he crave it. The same is true in a place like this:








​ 
If he WANTS me to give him constant guidance, then maybe his training doesn't match my desired behavior from a horse. Maybe he needs to be retrained, to develop new habits of thought. Ones that include him and expect him to behave responsibly while I ride like I did on Mia in the bottom picture - present, but not giving constant direction. I can understand how this might worry a horse, but I'm not interested in owning/riding a horse that needs me to 'keep him busy' the whole ride. I can't relax unless he learns how to relax and follow a trail with me.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

Not that I think you're in a rush, but I wouldn't worry overly much about him wanting or needing direction more than you want to be giving it in the long term. In that, Bandit reminds me of my Mr. Jayne when I got him. He was so accustomed to being directed and controlled (and perhaps punished if he didn't know the 'right' answer or showed any inclination to have an opinion) that it took a while for him to learn the new way of things. I talked about some of it in http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/try-re-teaching-horse-heart-495697/ . As you and your boy work together and he learns the 'new rules' his confidence and bravery will grow, especially as he learns that you will not set him up to fail. Above, "When the horse sees you as a trustworthy ally, and as a protector, it's going to calmly go past a lot more scary stuff than it ever would on its own" is a quote I like very much and my own personal experience agrees with entirely. It sounds like much of his training to this point has been very traditional, and re-teaching a horse that offering an opinion (in an acceptable way at a reasonable time) is okay takes a bit of counter conditioning.

My gelding still much prefers the clear guidance of a bit in scary (to him) circumstances. It allows him to fall back on his old habits of training, which, much like the military, amount to "stop thinking and just do as you're told." And that is safe and reasonable at times. However, nowadays, he rarely needs that crutch and understands that he can and should follow a clearly marked trail or even take the initiative in negotiating tough or treacherous footing in his own way until and unless I direct otherwise. He no longer needs me to 'babysit' him and I doubt it will take Bandit long to get past that either.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ Thank you for the thoughts & sharing your experience. I'm a self-taught rider with backyard horses, and I often wonder if I'm on the right track. I've met folks who look at me as if I'm from a foreign planet...:confused_color:

Maybe its time for me to break out my Australian style saddle again. Then when I get odd looks or comments, I can use my atrocious fake Australian accent and reply, "_That's how we do it on the other side of the world...it works because we're all upside-down, mate!_ _Have a brew..._" :biglaugh:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

_A re-post from "over there" so you have it neatly in your own journal for further discussion etc! ;-)_


_



However, a few paragraphs later, it says, "The fact must be borne in mind that punishments are very rarely necessary. Most of the faults committed by the horse are due to his ignorance and lack of training...in either case, severity becomes an injustice and causes such harmful results that it is better not to punish at all than to punish wrongly."

Click to expand...

_Here, they are with TR pretty much verbatim. Maybe there were two or more authors? Or this was a second or subsequent edition with some editing? Or maybe the author has multiple personality disorder? :wink:




> For myself...I tried a whip on Mia. Thick, heavy leather applied with lots of force...and she went backwards. Flew backwards! And the harder I hit, the faster she flew. Backwards!


Yeah, physically hurting a horse doesn't remove its ignorance, or calm a nervous disposition. If a horse being whipped is lucky enough to randomly alight on the thing the rider wants from it, then the rider will see whipping as a "good thing to do"... More often, this kind of situation just escalates, and it certainly does nothing to persuade the horse you are a reliable ally.




> Now that I have Bandit instead of Mia, I find myself struggling with how much discipline is right and when does it become abuse. If a horse decides it is time to go home and eat instead of obey me, I figure that is time for us to have a fight.


See, I agree the horse can't just go home, and I'll use strategies to prevent that. However, I don't think of it as a fight, or let it be a fight. (A teaching opportunity, sometimes a bit of a game of chess...but not a fight.) Maybe I'm just very persuasive. :wink: I think you can distract horses similarly to how you can distract toddlers: "Oh, look over here! Let's do this!" And if the horse is fretful, dismounting and doing groundwork can at times be better than sitting on a ticking bomb. And all the time, so important not to get emotionally upset or angry in those situations, and not to rush anything. Just calm and positive. A horse is so tuned into our own emotions.




> If things have reached the stage where my horse is gathering itself to spring forward and bolt, then immediate harsh use of the bit can save us both from injury or death - the only time to stop a bolt in progress is in the first spring. After that, as far as I can tell, about all that really works is to stay relaxed and wait for the bolt to turn into a run. Calling the horse's name softly worked once the bolt was fully entered - when an ear flicked back, her mind had returned and we could stop. But in that first motion to leap forward, you can catch the horse and keep them in place. So I understand doing what is needed to prevent injury to both horse and rider. And as best as I can tell, I've never injured a horse's mouth doing it. In the first moment, you can stop it with less force than an injury needs.


I think the immediacy of the response is probably what stops the bolt, rather than the severity (and perhaps you're not quite as severe as you think?). We had a horse that had bolted repeatedly in a snaffle, with various riders including past owners, but never again when we introduced it to a soft padded English hackamore - which took severity out of the equation, but immediately acted to lower the horse's head. I also think it's true that each horse is different and different things work for different horses.

It's certainly best to act _before_ the horse gathers speed.




> I can't honestly think of a time when any of my horses acted relieved that I was dismounting. Happy to get home? Yes. But I've never seen my horse act like dismounting during a ride was winning anything - that it "profited him", to use Robert's phrase. I also believe in the old cavalry rule of regularly dismounting once an hour and walking the horse for a few minutes - good for my knees and back, if not theirs! I normally do it once or twice a ride regardless of anything else happening.


Good rule, and a rider stays supple that way, plus the horse's back gets a break. Also extra mounting practice for the rider! I think it was also a good rule (Australian cavalry) to mount alternating sides. I ought to have employed that rule from when I was young, and have to admit I'm a bit unenthusiastic about off-side mounting. Shouldn't be though! Reduces sidedness in horse and rider.




> When they relax, not before, dismount. The worst injury I've had came from trying to dismount a scared horse. And if I see trouble ahead, why wait until it is in my lap? Why not takes steps to avoid the explosion?
> 
> And once dismounted, I've never had much problem leading them past something. In the worst case, I can always let go of the lead rope and let the horse go. But I've never needed to do that.


We neither. We've never "lost" a horse that way. In an extreme situation with a very scared horse I had to deal with rearing and plunging from the ground, but as long as you can maintain your relative position and keep out of harm's way that's quite manageable, certainly compared to trying to ride in such a scenario. That horse in that scenario was so freaked out he would have bolted home at top speed had I let the reins go. I had to keep him moving on the ground to dissipate some of that adrenaline. Standing still not an option. :wink: Took around ten minutes to calm him down. I then deliberately spent some time walking away a little from the _bogeyman_, and then walking back towards him. Over and over, talking calmly to the horse. Getting closer and closer. Until the horse tolerated the bogeyman. Praise praise praise etc, end of lesson.

In that particular case, it was a type of livestock in the neighbour's paddock that this horse had not encountered before. After that day, he was still suspicious and needed cajoling for a while, but never panicked at this type of bogeyman again. Or indeed panicked so blindly again. This was (ex-harness) Sunsmart during his first fortnight under saddle, at the beginning of developing a working relationship with me. It was really important that this situation ended on a good note (always is, but especially during this formative stage). And it's so much easier now, of course, seven or eight years later. A totally different kettle of fish once the horse sees you as someone you can rely on, etc. I think starting out is always the most difficult phase.




> A lot of folks I meet seem to consider that to be "The Way of the Coward".


This just smacks of ego to me - and the idea that a tough guy is dominant in all situations and just rides it out. It's pretty much Neanderthal level thinking. This attitude is more fixated on how a rider appears (hero or not to admiring crowd) than on whether the horse is learning and your relationship with the horse is progressing. 

Oh but wait, heroes don't have _relationships_ with their horses. :wink: They just _command_ the entire universe! :rofl:




> Well, it certainly involves less physical risk to me. But is it cowardice to think the best way to win a rock fight with Arliss is not to start one in the first place? If the horse can trust me enough to back away carefully and then wait while I dismount, isn't he already giving me an honest effort and cooperating with me? And once we've gotten past the scary area, none of my horses has acted up while I mounted. They've just waited patiently for our ride to resume.


:iagree:

We have basically the same sorts of thinking and experiences working with our horses, as what you're describing here.

Brains versus brawn - the pen versus the sword - reflection versus kneejerk responses - etc. :smile: I do think that status anxiety and emotional baggage on the part of humans so often interferes with sanity and calm. You can see that principle operating not just in horse training, but in marriages, politics, xenophobia, foreign policies etc. Now there's a broad subject! :smile:

I do think it's important to learn from your own experiences and not give other people's opinions as much weight as they might like. :wink:

Happy riding!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

So after posting the last contribution, I was doing the laundry and thinking about the things being discussed.

Re “The Coward's Way”: It occurred to me that it's usually cowards who project their own distorted thinking on the world... And that it's cowards who seek to bolster their sense of self-worth through acts of perceived bravado, and through exercising power without respect on creatures who are relatively powerless. It's cowards who are schoolyard bullies (almost always targeting physically smaller or socially isolated children), and cowards who rape grandmothers and steal their handbags, and cowards who take advantage of people who are vulnerable, and cowards who tie cats to railway lines and kick little dogs and do other cruel things to animals, and cowards who like to call other people cowards.

When a coward rides a horse, he has to be seen to be dominating the animal, show it who's boss, and whip it into submission. Because cowards are usually stupid, it doesn't occur to them that horses need to be taught the things we want them to do. The whole world is an extension of the coward's own distorted thinking, and therefore the whole world is after power, and the horse's failure to do certain things the rider wants is seen as a personal attack on their “superior rank” – as a challenge to their “authority.” Cowards love the popularised (but wrong) alpha theory and they love having control over others. Ideas like equality, listening, negotiation, partnership in any relationship, whether a sexual relationship or a friendship or a work relationship or in animal training, are threatening to cowards. Cowards have to be seen to be wearing the pants. I think cowards are hollow in their cores, and have pathetic lives – although of course many cowards rise quite high in the ranks of human hierarchies due to their pathological attraction to power, and feel, at least in the thin outer crust overlying their hollow cores, that they have “arrived” and that they are more important than other people.




And...I just wanted to rewrite this, which was from my point of view:




> In an extreme situation with a very scared horse I had to deal with rearing and plunging from the ground, but as long as you can maintain your relative position and keep out of harm's way that's quite manageable, certainly compared to trying to ride in such a scenario. That horse in that scenario was so freaked out he would have bolted home at top speed had I let the reins go. I had to keep him moving on the ground to dissipate some of that adrenaline. Standing still not an option. :wink: Took around ten minutes to calm him down. I then deliberately spent some time walking away a little from the _bogeyman_, and then walking back towards him. Over and over, talking calmly to the horse. Getting closer and closer. Until the horse tolerated the bogeyman. Praise praise praise etc, end of lesson.
> 
> In that particular case, it was a type of livestock in the neighbour's paddock that this horse had not encountered before. After that day, he was still suspicious and needed cajoling for a while, but never panicked at this type of bogeyman again. Or indeed panicked so blindly again. This was (ex-harness) Sunsmart during his first fortnight under saddle, at the beginning of developing a working relationship with me. It was really important that this situation ended on a good note (always is, but especially during this formative stage). And it's so much easier now, of course, seven or eight years later. A totally different kettle of fish once the horse sees you as someone you can rely on, etc. I think starting out is always the most difficult phase.


And now from the horse's perspective, with some humorous overlay! ;-) 
NB: Horses don't paragraph. It doesn't represent their thinking style.


“I was carrying the monkey along when we got to a wide open space, and I noticed to my horror that there were tentacled, fanged, dangerous bogeymen in the field beyond. I immediately wanted to turn and put a safe distance between them and me. The monkey seems to be slow on the uptake – often unaware of these dangers and telling me to keep going. I found I couldn't get away and was panicking. Suddenly the monkey was next to me. I still couldn't get away. My mouth was uncomfortable whenever I tried to run. So I tried rearing up, but after a while I found that didn't advance my cause either. I still couldn't get away. The monkey was making soothing sounds and yabbering at me and walking in circles with me. The tentacled, fanged, dangerous bogeymen were still in the field. They hadn't gotten any closer. The monkey wasn't worried, and was pointing at the bogeymen. I don't understand this monkey. I was walking in circles and that made me feel better. I would rather have run away but I couldn't. I liked being in motion, and it calmed me. When I was calm, I felt better. It also pleased the monkey, though goodness knows why. The tentacled, fanged, dangerous bogeymen were still in the field. They were not coming after me. The monkey walked with me, sometimes away from them, sometimes towards them. Every time I walked towards them afresh, it was less frightening. Then I saw they didn't have any tentacles, but they did have fangs. Are there fanged vegetarians? The monkey seems to think so. The monkey was calm and happy, and praised me every time I went closer to them. Either this monkey is monumentally stupid, or it knows something I don't. Hmmm. I've got to keep my eye on this monkey. When I was really calm, and standing looking at the bogeymen, my monkey was ecstatic, and I got to go home! The monkey climbed up on my back again, and we ambled down the field. Every now and then, the monkey asked me to turn around and look at the bogeymen. They weren't following us. When we got home the monkey gave me a bath.”


In all seriousness, what the horse learnt:

Trying to bolt away didn't improve anything.
Rearing didn't improve anything.
He didn't get eaten by the bogeymen.
Walking in circles was calming.
The bogeymen looked less scary the longer he spent near them.
The monkey is a puzzlement.
The monkey was pleased when he got calm.
When he had calmly faced the bogeymen, he got to go home.

If you've got to deal with a panicking, plunging, rearing horse, it's imperative to understand that this is just instinctive equine defensive programming in the face of perceived danger. It's nothing personal and it's certainly not about the pecking order. No horse, herd leader or not, attempts to stop another horse from bolting – more likely it will join in – as this is an evolutionarily successful survival strategy that has served equines well for millions of years. The ones that didn't do it got eaten. It's quite amazing that we can train horses significantly (but of course never completely) out of such behaviours around humans – it's a huge achievement when you think about it.

This was without question the most frenzied and extreme behaviour I've ever hung on to from the ground. At the start, I thought to myself, “Holy barnacle, I'm 70kg and he's nearly 500kg and he's as quick as a flash, what chance have I got? And what's my injury risk here?” Letting go was an option, but it would have taken a while to de-programme him out of a successful case of “Bolting is a good thing to do.” Successfully staying with him meant making huge progress out of just one teaching situation. So I determined to stay with him as long as I reasonably could, and just stuck to what I'd been taught from the time I was nine: Don't attempt to pull on the horse – just resist gently. You can't win a tug-of-war with a horse, even with a bit. When he moves, move with him and stay at his shoulder and slow down his progress. At the shoulder, you're least likely to be stomped on or thrown over, and you have the most mechanical advantage over the horse's head.

I had to move pretty fast and there were some moments where I really didn't think I could possibly stay upright or hold on. Amazingly though, it worked. And none of this was remotely about pecking order – it was just about what he would learn from the situation. Impeding his instinctive flight meant he would be exposed to something scary and learn it didn't harm him after all. He would face the fear and settle down without running away. It just changed the scenario from the usual equine routine of “See scary thing, run” to one count of “I stayed with the scary thing and it was OK”. And although it's great if you can stay with it, it's actually not the end of the world if you can't – it will just mean you'll have to spend more time on that stuff in subsequent sessions.

It was not a fight by any stretch of the imagination, and it wasn't contest for supremacy – that's just a silly overlay people create with their emotional baggage. It was quiet patient persistence, and a positive educational experience for the horse: He panicked, but he stayed near scary things and eventually calmed down, and nothing bad happened, and the monkey was happy.

Of course, it's so much easier if the horses we ride are raised in wide-open paddocks surrounded by all sorts of different animals, machinery and sights, and then exposed to all sorts of places and travel while still young, as my Arabian mare was, with whom I never had a major fear scenario when riding. Sunsmart was born cloistered in a stable and small yard without any wide-ranging vistas, and growing up he only ever saw horses, and only solid-coloured ones at that, and beyond that a circle of enclosing bushland from which an occasional emu or kangaroo emerged, and when he travelled it was always to a generic trotting track. Therefore, although he is not what I would call a timid horse by a long shot, I had to do a lot of de-sensitising with him when I started riding him: Not to machinery or cars – trotters are super with that, since they encounter mobile barriers, ambulances and huge watering trucks sharing the track with them at every trial or race – but to those ubiquitous organic bogeymen, especially on trails!


Now back to the laundry! ;-)

:smileynotebook:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

PS: So people can put faces to names: Sunsmart and his "monkey" ;-)


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is edited from a review I did of a saddle pad, but it applies to riding Bandit and what we're trying. Additional comments about Bandit in bold:



bsms said:


> This will be a short review of the Diamond Wool Endurance Contoured Felt Pad, as used with an Australian style saddle (DownUnder Master Campdraft).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It was the first time in a long time that I rode with only my jeans between my calves and my horse. My jeans probably smell a bit horsie now, but that is OK. He responded very well to leg inputs - and why not, when my Wranglers were all that came between us!

I had a lot of fun just going around the arena with him today. We haven't done that before. He needs trail work, but we also need to work on communicating with each other - and that is easiest to focus on in an arena. I hate the term "body control". Is it just me, or do the videos I see on body control look more like 'jerk face'? I never control his body. I can only influence his mind, which in turn controls his body. But the easier it is for him to understand me, the better we can work together on the road or trail.

I enjoyed it today. Just as important, I think he enjoyed it too. A fun morning...:cowboy:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, went back to my western saddle today. I added a Mayatex blanket to make Bandit a little bulkier and simply rode more 'forward' than I had been. I've spent a few months trying to get used to a shorter stirrup length, but it just isn't working for me. I go back to bracing against the stirrups and relying on stirrups instead of seat. So I dropped them a total of 3 holes to get back to where they normally were when riding Mia this spring.

My youngest took a couple of pictures today, so I finally got to see how I look on Bandit. I'm not actually hunchbacked. It is just the wind in my shirt. Two shots, one in the little arena while trying to loosen up, and a rear shot along the road:








​ 







​ 
I'm glad to see my heels are at least a little bit down, although it felt to me like I was pointing my toe down into the stirrup...wasn't, though.

See the green trash can at the far right down the road? It is a little speck of green on the right of the road. That was the second of 6-8 trash cans that Bandit did not like. At all. However, things ARE improving. We didn't make any wide detours. If I simply looked about 100 feet down the road, tipped his nose slightly toward the "threat" and pressed with my inside calf a little aft of normal, he scooted on by at an angle where he could give it the stink eye - but without slowing down.

In every case today, when he was uncomfortable with something ahead, he still moved forward and led Trooper past it. Of course, Trooper would have strolled on by regardless, taking puffs from the joint in his mouth...but Bandit didn't know that. Nor did I tell him. Better to let him feel he was leading the other horse.

Having practiced trotting several times in the Aussie saddle, we threw some trotting in today. Just short trots, 50-100 yards. I find if I make a kissing sound SOFTLY, I can get him to trot without throwing himself forward into an extended trot. For what I need, a slower than average trot - maybe 6-7 mph - would be fine.

Lengthening my leg had an added bonus. It allowed me to sit further forward in the saddle, which did a better job of aligning my center of gravity with Bandit's CoG. It actually felt good doing a sitting trot with him, and he didn't seem to mind. I had re-attached the bucking rolls to the saddle. Not because he is likely to buck, but because it is an A-fork saddle and Bandit has been making very abrupt slows/stops from a trot. But he's starting to figure out that "Easy" means slow down and be prepared to stop if asked. We are not there yet, not 100%, but we were at 35% today. That was better than previous rides. And, I'm glad to say, I didn't hit the 'poleys' once today. 

"Poleys" for a western saddle:









​ 
BTW - I don't rope or pretend to. But dally wraps (the black rubber straps around the horn) make the horn easier to grab when putting the saddle on or taking it off. I need to add them to my Australian-style saddle, too.

I'd like to get him to use mostly verbal cues - kiss to speed up, "Come one" to extend, "Easy" to back off a pace and "Whoa" to stop. I gather voice cues are considered poor form for showing, but I don't show. Mia calmed down better when using verbal cues than anything else, and verbal cues are fantastic if your bridle breaks. They are also cues that can be given with ZERO pressure on the horse's mouth, sides or anything else. They seem to me to be the ultimate in light cues.

Bandit still stumbles at times. He didn't after we pulled the shoes from his rear feet, but did a lot when we pulled them from the front. He is getting better. I'm wondering if it doesn't have less to do with tender feet and more to do with needing to learn a new way of putting his foot down and carrying weight. With shoes, he really stretched his front feet out. He can't do that without them...and maybe he shouldn't. When jogging, I don't hurt my knees if I jog with a shorter stride. That is why a high-cushioning shoe ends up hurting my knees more than less cushioning: I automatically shorten my stride when my feet have less protection. That slows me down but saves my knees. I wonder if going barefoot might, long term, teach Bandit to move in a way more natural for his joints.

So...a good ride today. Bandit still gets nervous, but he is slowly gaining confidence. I think his previous training was 'Go or suffer the consequences'. I want it to be 'Go because it is safe and a good chance to stretch your legs'. I want to replace 'or else' with "I'm here and it is OK". Now, I could be wrong about his former training. I'm guessing, in part. In any case, for us to go the way I want us to go, I need him to trust that when I say "Go", it is both safe and reasonable to "Go". That will take more time and may mean we sometimes have problems, but it is the approach I'd prefer to try.

:cowboy:​


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> Well, went back to my western saddle today. I added a Mayatex blanket to make Bandit a little bulkier and simply rode more 'forward' than I had been. I've spent a few months trying to get used to a shorter stirrup length, but it just isn't working for me. I go back to bracing against the stirrups and relying on stirrups instead of seat. So I dropped them a total of 3 holes to get back to where they normally were when riding Mia this spring.


Maybe I missed something, but why were you trying to adjust to riding with shorter stirrups? I am pretty sure you don't jump, so was trying to figure out what advantage shorter stirrups were supposed to give you. And was that just in your aussie saddle or the western one too?

Three holes is a huge difference in leg (and therefore body) position!! If someone made me raise my stirrups that many holes, I would likely feel as if I was back on the track galloping again. :wink: And I certainly wouldn't want to be trail riding feeling that way.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Stirrup length: I regularly admit to being a self-taught rider. That is certainly true in terms of having someone watch me and offer advice. However, I also read a lot and watch videos from experts, and then try different things to see how it works for me, my horse and my tack. In that sense, I've been taught by some of the greatest riders of the last 150 years...but cross-checked against my goals and by watching how my horse responds. And, of course, very limited by my misunderstanding of what they wrote or being unable to apply it correctly.

My long stirrup position means when I sit in the saddle wearing socks but not boots, the bottom of my heel barely touches the tread of the stirrup. That is longer than most recommend. I did it because I tend to brace in the stirrups. I started by learning forward riding, which is stirrup-centric. But since I had a spooky horse, it became a crutch. To get rid of the crutch, but still have some margin for safety, I adjusted my stirrups down until bracing just didn't happen any more.

Some time back, to try to become a better western rider, I paid for a series of videos by Larry Trocha. I don't like everything he does, but he seems more level-headed and willing to admit problems than most. He also trains cutters, and I figure anyone who sticks on cutting horses ought to be able to stick on a spooky horse. While many cutter use a very long leg, Trocha advises against it. He says you'll tend to come off the horse in situations where a shorter stirrup would save you.

So I shortened my stirrups a hole at a time, with about a month of riding at each level, until I felt pretty comfortable with riding at the shorter length - about the bottom of my ankle bone. I think it works OK...but I find myself slipping back into bracing. It is kind of nice when the horse does the "OMG Crouch". 

BUT: I don't know if it is me, my saddle, my bad habits I can't overcome or what...but it also puts me in a chair seat. I don't define chair seat as having heels forward of the hip, but thigh angle. If it was just heels forward of the hip, this guy would have a chair seat:








​ 
I've tried riding like that and it didn't feel at all chair like. The thighs are too steep and wrapped low around the horse. A chair seat combines having the thighs too level (knees too high) AND forward. It makes it tough to do a good sitting trot and makes it harder to stay wrapped around a dicey horse. 

I've been trying since March, but it just doesn't seem to work for me. Dropping 3 holes and then going off property for a ride also felt strange. It really DID feel like I was pointing my toes down! But I wasn't, and it just made me feel like my horse was going to have to work awfully hard to get rid of me - which Bandit is not inclined to do. He doesn't have the reservoir of good will that Mia & I built up over 7 years, but he is starting to think of me as his person - the guy who is responsible for taking care of him and making bad things go away.

My normal riding boots are Red Wing Pecos. They have a thicker sole than most, so perhaps that affects how low my stirrup should be. This is, after all, NOT a super long stirrup length:








​ 
The other factor in this is saddle LENGTH. I ordered a 16" saddle because that is what I've always used...but this saddle has a slick seat. The padding of a padded seat reduces the felt seat size. But if I use a shorter stirrup, I tend to sit all the way back. With the longer stirrup, I felt like I could scootch forward some and get in better balance. There is only about a finger between my thighs and the western poleys (bucking rolls to everyone else in the world).

It is one thing to sit in a slick seat A-fork saddle for a little while or to take a short ride in one. It is another to live with it daily. The good news is that an A-fork has a more English riding feel to it, IMHO:








​ 
The bad news is that combining it with slick, hard leather makes one feel like he can slide off the front. It doesn't happen because the seat also rises fast to the front...but it sure feels that way if you start from the rear of the seat and start sliding forward! Getting my knees lower and my hips forward gave me a very secure feeling.

I looked for uneven sweat marks when we got back, but it was 11 AM in July south of Tucson...so there was just a darn LOT of sweat everywhere! Including me...:icon_rolleyes: But I felt secure and Bandit moved better than he had been, so we might be on the right track. It could also be imaginary, but I'm totally fine with imagining I'm secure in the saddle and thus acting more confident to my horse. As they used to say in my military flying days (in F-4E/Gs) "you no have will to cheat, you no have will to win"!

And from the burn in my thighs right now, I think i was supporting much of my weight in my thighs and not my bum. I think that is a good thing. It encourages a horse to use his back AND puts my main contact below seat level and on either side. But my thighs ARE feeling it now, and we only rode 1.5 hours!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Gratuitous Internet picture of an F-4G. It was taken when I was in that squadron, so maybe...in the rear cockpit...


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

That doesn't look too long to me at all, and no wonder you're more comfortable. Personally I prefer riding with my legs nearly at bareback length, so I basically trail on the dressage setting. I think many Australian stockmen in the Stock Saddles also ride longer than the average (English) All-Purpose saddle rider.

Are you very tall? You appear to have a decent length femur. I'm 180cm and have a longer femur than anyone else I've ever met, and I think this is connected to being more comfortable riding "long" - a shorter-legged rider can probably angle their leg proportionally more at the knee without feeling uncomfortable.

People should always aim at being relaxed and comfortable, in my book.

Is that an adobe building in the background?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm 5'8" (173cm). I think the difference is the boots I wear. The Red Wings are sturdy work boots, meant to be comfortable when using a shovel or working on your feet in rocky terrain. They probably add a hole (or half a hole?) in length over my dress boots with their thin leather soles.

I also ride with my feet rammed almost 'home', which was the preferred way of riding up thru the 50s or so for most western or jump riders. That may make a difference.

What surprises me still after 7 years of riding is how small changes can affect things we don't expect. The longer leg probably only puts me 1/2"-1" further forward, yet it feels more in synch with my horse. But OTOH, I didn't feel that way with Mia - so could her additional 3" in height and slightly longer back have made the difference? Or does Bandit, having been trained with an emphasis on speed, carry his weight further forward - at least right now?

Also - I felt silly using "bucking rolls" on my saddle when my horses have shown no interest in bucking. But if I think of them as "western poleys", then I like having them on. Detachable poleys...it seems like something English saddle makers ought to consider! They are 3 inches deep instead of 4 inch poleys on my Australian-style saddle, but located in nearly the same position. I hate the thought of the dressage saddles with huge knee rolls, but could get very interested in a close contact English saddle with a wide channel down the middle...and could really get enthusiastic if it had provision for attaching bucking rolls. They go on with a single screw at each end and function much like a small poley. It seems like a peanut butter & chocolate idea to me: sounds strange, but would work well. Unhappily, my brilliant idea is unlikely to ever be built. I'm pretty sure George Morris would not approve of bucking rolls on a jump saddle - although with the way some folks jump nowadays, they might come in handy - along with a foam cushion on the horse's neck!

The building in the background is our house. It is wood frame & stucco, which is very common in the southwest.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

SueC said:


> Personally I prefer riding with my legs nearly at bareback length, so I basically trail on the dressage setting.
> 
> People should always aim at being relaxed and comfortable, in my book.


:iagree:


Ride in the position that feels most comfortable to you, assuming its not in some way interfering with your horse.

I too ride in what most would consider dressage-length (if not longer) stirrups. Forgive the fuzzy picture as it was taken as the sun was going down, but was taken to show just where the bottom of my stirrup hits with my leg relaxed:










So yes, that is just barely above the bottom of my sneaker! I wouldn't want to jump high with a stirrup this length, but I am comfortable on trail (including posting, two point for hills, even popping over small logs, etc). I tend to want to be in a chair seat with shorter stirrups (as well as reverting to the [email protected] hunter perch), but don't have nearly as much trouble maintaining my position with the longer stirrups.










I don't really do any sitting trot (too lazy for that!), but I find posting trot to be effortless. The horse above has a huge trot compared to my arabs (she is half draft) and can be a bit of a spook (she's only 6). I think the biggest factor is having the base of support be in your seat and thigh, as that gives the most security.

I will be interested to hear where your stirrups wind up in the end.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I appreciate the comments and pics. Looking at them, I may now tell people I ride with kind of short stirrups! :wink:

"I tend to want to be in a chair seat with shorter stirrups (as well as reverting to the [email protected] hunter perch), but don't have nearly as much trouble maintaining my position with the longer stirrups."

This, this, this! And I never jumped! But I learned riding by reading Littauer and trying to apply what he said...only with a longer leg.

From another thread a week ago:



bsms said:


> ...I spent a good part of yesterday reading a book about chasing Villa in Mexico in 1916. The author, Col Frank Tompkins, includes this picture of him riding his stallion Kingfisher:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In one passage, he wrote of using a slower trot to avoid "wasting flesh". That phrase stuck with me - "wasting flesh". In another book ("Riding and Hunting", M. Horace Hayes, 1901) the author writes:"This style may be suitable for a three or four miles drive in the Park or in Town during the season, but it is not "business" from a horseman's view, because it entails a waste of muscular power. We may see a similar needless expenditure of force..."​That ideal of horsemanship appeals to me, perhaps as a leftover reflection of Littauer's - If I'm going to ride a horse, I should try to minimize the effort required from my mount, who would be quite happy to sit around eating. Although that isn't true for horses who live in corrals, as mine do. I think Bandit LIKES to get out, even if it is a little scary at times.

The cavalry officer's equitation was driven by the need to carry another 100 lbs of gear and food, and he needed to fit on wherever was left. I have more options, but want to learn to ride Bandit in a way that will always leave him "with a quick springy step with head and tail alertly raised, animated and watchful. In battle...fearless..."

OK, I'll gladly skip the battles. But I need to work on a position and approach that involves as little work for my horse as I can. At a minimum, I need to avoid being braced in a chair seat! "_Bumpity, Bumpity, Bumpity_" is no way to ride!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

phantomhorse13 said:


> Ride in the position that feels most comfortable to you, assuming its not in some way interfering with your horse.


Yes, 180cm rider in dressage length stirrups shouldn't be riding a Shetland, or they'll turn into a two-headed insect! 

Alternative riding position, as proposed by Thelwell:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Thelwell's suggestion would "leave [the horse] 'with a quick springy step with head and tail alertly raised, animated and watchful.'"


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

...or deadly bored.  My horse seems to think he is my wheelchair. If I walk next to him for any length of time, and he wants to go faster, he will stop, give me an exasperated look, and invite me to get back in the saddle! :rofl:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Didn't have much time this morning, but got some practice trotting with Bandit. My wife came out to take pictures because, she said, I _'ride weird, like you're trying to ride English'_. I tried to explain that I was doing just that, intentionally, but my wife of 28 years rides 6 times a year needed or not, so she obviously knows more about it that I do...:icon_rolleyes:

Maybe it is practicing in an arena, but Bandit's directional control was all over the place. I spent a lot more time in his mouth than I like because otherwise we would have weaved around randomly.

This was an "in his mouth" picture:








​ 
This was about the most relaxed he got today - and it is a pretty good picture of Bandit's idea of a relaxed western jog. We probably will never win an award in western pleasure. Oh well:








​ 
Then my youngest got on. It was her first time riding Bandit and she didn't want to trot...so they didn't. Before long, Bandit was about to fall asleep:








​ 
Not the most successful day from a training standpoint, but a few things worked. I suspected and now feel very confident that Mia's saddle has more rock than Bandit's back needs. The saddle was picked for Mia's back, and Mia had more curve front to rear than Bandit. Mia wasn't swaybacked by any means, but she had more rock than Bandit:








​ 
vs








​ 
The back of the saddle will lift when my weight isn't deep in it to hold it down, so I'm not getting full benefit of the bars. However, the difference cannot be too huge. The hair is always even at the end, the sweat is even and Bandit doesn't seem to have a problem. Walking down a road, I use the rear of the saddle more:










At a trot, with my weight forward, the rear of the saddle and saddle pad lifts. Not enough to worry about...getting a perfect fit is tough and I'm not going to get a custom one for Bandit when he seems content to ride with this one...but it is worth knowing.

The other thing is that he relaxed nicely with my daughter. She is interested in riding him. I wouldn't mind riding Trooper sometimes. So we'll see. She can ride Cowboy's trot, and that 13 hand mustang has a trot that makes me want to pee blood.

Also, notice my daughter has her heels under her hip, while mine tend to be out front. That reflects the differences in how we ride...yet it is the same saddle. People always complain their saddle puts them in a chair seat. I don't get it. If I want my feet in front of my belt buckle, I put them there. If I want them under my hip, I put them there. My daughter's feet are under her hip in the same saddle where mine are not, because that is how we like to ride.

We quit early because it was hot and I walked Bandit around the block just to get him away from the other horses. Re-entering the arena, he went on full alert! There was...a MONSTER on the railing! OK, it was the saddle covered by the saddle blanket, and he was there when I did it. But that was then and this was now. Amazing how things can change.

He pulled back hard and I charged into him, then turned him around and made him run in tight circles. I'm really not interested in having him try to back me up. That is one of the big no-nos.

When he understood, we approached the monster one step at a time. One step, wait. One step, wait.

When the 9' reins allowed me to sit on the rail next to the monster, I did. I then waited about 5 minutes as Bandit sloowwllyyyy approached, reached out his neck...and sniffed the blanket that had been on his back 30 minutes earlier. When he finally took it in his lips and moved it around, I figured he had the idea.

I don't know if it counts, but I think we had one more time when the strange monkey that gets on his back was proven right about something not being scary.​


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I was randomly wondering when I was reading this how much the more forward leg position is a guy thing. See, my father decided decades ago that the most comfortable place for his legs was significantly further forward than where I have mine, and ****** the guidelines (for European riding). I find the heels-under-hips thing most comfortable and most balanced for me. But I wonder how much anatomy has to do with that.

Not just the obvious thing that I can't imagine how inconvenient it must be to have gonads sitting between yourself and your saddle, rather than protected in the abdomen. Also actual physical differences between the male and female pelvis and the attachment angles to the legs. All humans have the femur running slantwise from the outside of our hips to the knees, which means we don't have to waddle like ducks when we walk - and this angle the femur makes off the vertical is called the carrying angle. In females, the angle is on average greater, since the hips are on average proportionally wider.

So far then, female humans compared to males have: Protected gonads, proportionally wider hips, femurs at a greater angle off the vertical. The hip tilt is also slightly different, as is the position of the coccyx. We can probably add to that, more stretchy ligaments (connecting bones to bones). Generally, a lower centre of gravity (unless the female has greatly above average size mammary glands). These are just some items for consideration, and they surely influence seat and riding.

But do they influence leg position? Now we're going to have to do a survey. An anecdotal preliminary study is just fine to start with! ;-) Anyone want to chime in?

Anecdotally, I have noticed that males tend to tilt their hips forward when riding, whereas females tend to sit more upright on their hips. But more data is needed, also on the leg position!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Haven't updated this for a while. Posted this on the Over 50 thread, but thought I'd add it here for the young folks:



bsms said:


> My youngest daughter went for a ride with me this morning. I told her the night before I was going out around 7:30. She isn't in school right now and has been staying up past midnight, but when she heard me taking out the saddle she said she'd be ready as soon as she could drink a cup of tea. Said she wouldn't be decent to ride with before that. Since I had finished two 12 oz cups of coffee, I could argue.
> 
> After we pulled Bandits front shoes on 6 June, his front feet were very tender. At the beginning of this month, paved roads were all he could handle. I started using Durasole on him 10 days ago, once/day. He was acting less tender, so I figured if things went well we would try some smoother trails.
> 
> ...


I do think the forward leg thing is partially male/female. I think guys tend to have tighter hips, and heels forward puts less strain on tight hips. In many cases, I think a relaxed leg is more helpful than a "properly placed" leg. The change in center of gravity and balance from moving the heels 6" forward is minimal compared to tightness in the legs.

This is a random Internet picture of someone riding bareback. That is also the leg position that I find most comfortable in the saddle:










My theory is that it puts the legs around the narrowest part of most horses. This was Mia and I, years ago using my fake Australian saddle. It feels best to me at a walk or light trot. For more speed, I'd need to lean forward:​







​ 
I am happy about the progress I'm seeing in Bandit with the Durasole. He needs his hooves to grow longer and to get a thicker sole in the front, but the Durasole seems to help for now. The groove next to the frog is probably less than 1/2" deep right now. Better than 1/4" a few months ago. I'd probably lame him if I asked him to canter on a trail right now, but I won't let him go faster than a walk until his feet look better. He's spent 4 weeks now on a biotin supplement. He needs thicker & stronger walls.

He is also fun to ride on pavement, although I'll be darned if I can figure out what he thinks is scary or not. Earlier in the week, we went past a parked moving van. He ignored the van, but got skittish about some lights used to illuminate a driveway - enough so that he nearly backed his butt against the moving van. What idiot of a horse worries about a 4" light while ignoring a moving van?

But he does calm down faster than Mia. He also doesn't lose his mind when you ask him to go faster. I think his endurance racing prep taught him going fast isn't all it is cracked up to be!

My wife says that he isn't that much calmer than Mia, but that I am much calmer on him. She says my memories of Mia when she would wind up emotionally interfered with my understanding of where she was in May 2015 - that I was still trying to ride the Mia of 2013 instead of the one in the corral.

That may be, but not entirely. Like Mia, Bandit gets wound up with too much corral time. The first 30 minutes of a ride is where he gets the boogers out of his mind. After than, he snorts, blows...and calms down and focuses. Mia did that too, but I think her breeding and experience led to to get more wound up - and I didn't have anyplace to just run her flat out for a few miles.

I'm pretty sure my riding is improving on Bandit. Less tense, more confident, more inclined to accept fast because I don't have to worry about getting him stopped or having him decide to race thru the cactus in excitement.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It has been a while since I updated this thread, but here are some random events and thoughts:

His front feet are still an issue. I tried Durasole on all his foot, and was making progress. I switched to using it only on the sole and not the frog, and he started getting "Owwyyy" in a week. Then I switched to using it on the frog but not the sole, and he seems to be getting better. The grooves along the frog are still quite shallow...maybe 1/2", maybe even less. Much shallower than Mia's feet, and much shallower than his rear feet. I was thinking of putting him back in shoes, but I've decided to hold off and see how his feet do using Durasole on his frog. He was OK today on a section of trail provided he walked carefully in the rocky spots. That wouldn't be a bad lesson for him to learn regardless.
---------------------------------------------

He tends to go about inverted, but he is getting better. I was re-reading Littauer's advice on starting a horse in jumping. Before any jumping, he said a solid base needed to be laid of simply walking and trotting relaxed and calm. He said if you tried to push for speed too soon, you made a horse nervous and also taught them bad movement, and correcting it later could take longer than doing it right from the start. He also said some horses couldn't be corrected if started wrong.

Bandit's previous owner wanted to use him for racing. He ran in at least one 30 mile race, although it may have been as part of a team. But with a big guy riding, and an emphasis on going fast, might that have gotten Bandit off to a poor start? Littauer would say yes, I think.

I also was reading thru a book about dressage, and the author said it wouldn't hurt to spend a year or two just getting the horse used to walking and trotting relaxed, using two point or a forward seat, before beginning any formal training for collection. I've started a thread on the dressage sub-forum asking about possible books ( http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/need-book-recommendations-low-level-dressage-615049/#post7904313 ), and have ordered two (probably my limit for this month). When we go out alone, which is about 3/4 of the time, I've just been riding him on the neighborhood streets near the house - walking, and sometimes trotting for 100-200 yards uphill. There are lots of things for him to get used to in a neighborhood - garage doors, strange people, dogs, cars, moving vans, flags, etc. I find myself working mostly on him walking slowly, relaxed and calm.
------------------------------------------

A few days ago, we turned to go up a hill and over the top came a couple. They both were walking large dogs, and the guy was shirtless and had a huge baby carrier on his back - one with a big sun screen up and over his head too, and bright red. YGBSM! Bandit didn't turn and run, but it was obvious he wasn't going to share the paved road with a huge red crab trying to eat some guy's head! But give him credit: I was able to turn him, and then walk (quickly, with glances back) away from the horrible sight. When I could turn him on to a side road, I did so, calmed him, then dismounted. 

As the couple went by, the lady said she rode horses and I must have a very green one. I didn't say much, but none of my horses would respond well to a giant crab eating a guy's head! As they continued down the street, I asked if we could follow. They said sure, so Bandit and I walked behind them. After about 100 yards, Bandit snorted and looked at me like, "They aren't so tough!" So I turned him around, mounted up and we walked away - without any backward glances this time.

When I owned Mia, I would have tried to handle it from horseback, but I think what I'm doing now works better. It certainly seems to get Bandit thinking we are working together on the problem.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've noticed lately that after about 30 minutes of walking, he starts lowering his head. There is nothing for him to eat since we are on pavement. The first few times, I kept his head up by force. But I interpret Littauer as saying that was the wrong thing to do, that the horse is just stretching his back against my weight - which means he is using his back instead of bracing it. So now I let him lower his head and sometimes stand up in the stirrups.

I've lowered the stirrups another hole, though. The stirrups don't slide off, but it makes it harder for me to brace. It also makes it harder for me to get completely off his back. But I've been thinking...

Jim Wofford said that when jockeys first switched to riding above the back, that decade saw a 6% improvement in race times. In the 100+ years since then, race times have only improved 1%. Thinking about that, it suggests that a galloping horse saves 6% in effort if the rider gets completely off his back. 6% is huge in a race: for a 1 mile race, it would make a difference of 317 feet - enormous in a sport where winners are often by a nose!

But at a walk, the horse doesn't raise its back as much, so I would think the savings in energy ought to be less. If being deeper in the saddle costs my horse 2-3% extra effort, but keeps me looser and more relaxed, and more securely in the saddle, might it be worth it? After all, if I ride him 4 miles, that would be like riding him an extra 0.1 miles - not much to worry about.

For now, when we walk, I stay deeper in the saddle. When we trot, I try to get out of the saddle to encourage him to use his back more. I also limit the trots to 100-200 yards, and I try to do them going uphill. That is a nice thing about my neighborhood - the paved roads are only level when transitioning from uphill to down, or downhill to up. Lots of hill work should make him use his rump more - at a trot, studies indicate a 10% grade results in a 50:50 balance instead of 57:43 on level ground.
----------------------------------------------

We had a lot of rain last night. While riding today, there was a large mud puddle - about 50 feet across. We stopped and let Trooper drink. I was walking Bandit since we had just opened/closed a gate. When he got to the pond, he walked in and immediately began splashing water with his front feet. He was like a kid playing in the puddle. We joked that he was trying to kill the puddle sharks - fearsome predators lurking in even the shallowest mud puddles. Mia used to tell us about them.

To get back to the paved road, we went on a 30 yard walk on a narrow path in the brush. I was still walking Bandit on a lead, figuring I'd mount up after we were clear. As we got clear of the brush, Trooper's foot slipped on some mud. He startled and jumped out onto the road. A car was coming, in the far lane. The car has slowed down when he saw me with Bandit - gotta give folks here credit, they are great about driving near horses. My youngest got Trooper turned and they did a 360, then circled their way off the pavement.

In truth, I think the car would have been able to stop anyway. But it scared my daughter. Trooper is our "Steady Eddie" horse, and she didn't expect him to do something like that! Afterward, she told me, "I don't think I'll need a nap when we get home. *There is nothing quite like a near death experience to sharpen the mind!*"

It reminded me of Churchill's comment that there was nothing as exhilarating as being shot at - and missed. But if the car had been headed the other way, and closer, it could have been fatal. That is why I tend to dismount if I'm coming out of the brush where there is a paved road. Most cars on that road do 60-70 mph (two lane road, but in the boonies). Had the car been closer, I'd have blocked the opening with Bandit, but I tried to point out to my youngest that caution around horses and cars is a good thing, not cowardice!

My youngest took this picture from our driveway yesterday. All it needs is a couple of horse ears in it to be perfect:


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Ha! Isabel will splash in puddles with her front feet like that too.

Not sure what other recommendations you got for books, but Jane Savoie's Dressage 101 is pretty good for a focus on the basics in clear, straightforward language.

She's one of those folks who has a lot of marketing materials, videos, tutorials, memberships you can purchase, etc. so you could probably find a lot of other stuff from her too.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

*Mia vs Bandit - two types of horses*

Let me toss this out as food for thought. It is something I was thinking about while riding this morning.

My riding relationship with Bandit is very different from Mia. Mia was simply a much smarter horse. Not that Bandit is stupid. I'd place him in the top 50%, tho not by a large margin. He is a fairly average horse.

Mia was smart. She figured out how to open up a double latch gate with her lips, and would do so in about 5 seconds if you didn't chain it shut. The 3 geldings I own right now have never even investigated their gates. I once forgot to latch the gate, and Trooper and Cowboy never noticed. Mia would have been out in seconds.

She was intensely aware of her surroundings. Trooper and Bandit are both aware, but on an order of magnitude below Mia.

When I was getting Mia ready to ride, her attitude was, "Oohhhh, what are we going to do today?" 

When I get Bandit ready to ride, his attitude is, "I wonder if I can get another mouth of grass in before the bit...or after..."

Mia was curious. Bandit (and Trooper and Cowboy) are not.

From a relationship standpoint, I miss Mia. I miss her awareness and I miss her fondness for me. I know what people say, but I am certain Mia genuinely liked some people.

Heck, sometimes I'd take a wheelbarrow in the corral to clean up the poop. And once in a while, Mia would back up to it, drop a couple of apples with a lot of grunting, and then look at me as if to say, "Sorry, that is all I've got right now!" 

I miss how at the end of the ride, she'd look at me with an expression that said, "Was that as good for you as it was for me?" I sometimes felt like offering her a cigarette...:winetime:

From a riding perspective, Bandit is superior. He likes walking fast, as Mia did - but he doesn't mind going out alone with me. Mia would worry about "her herd". Bandit probably wouldn't care if the other two horses were eaten while we were out.

He used to explode into a trot and go fast, but he's learning to relax and jog instead. He gives warning if he is getting nervous, and he calms down fast afterward.

He is aware, but there is very little drama. Even when he is nervous, he is learning to work with me.

So what is my point?

Bandit is content to work for me. I'm pretty certain he WANTS me to be dominant. Not brutally so, but he wants to know I'm in charge and making the decisions. Mia worked best when she thought it was her idea. Bandit just wants to know what we're doing so he can do it. 

Do two Figure 8 patterns with Mia, and she would ask if we were lost. Do them with Bandit (or Trooper), and then do two more. Or four. Or six. As long as it doesn't hurt, they don't care how many times we do a pattern.

That doesn't mean I need to "win". If something is genuinely scary ahead, vs just uncomfortable, my best results are backing Bandit up, turning around and going back 50 yards, dismounting, and showing him there is no reason to be scared. Before long, whatever that scary thing was will no longer be scary and we'll ride right past it.

I think his past experience was more along the lines of "Shut up and color". With me as a rider, my goal is "You are never alone". I want his confidence, not just his obedience, and I'm pleased with the progress we're making.

But it is different. Mia wanted to be involved in the decision making. Bandit just wants to know what I expect of him. Mia wanted to know "Why?". Bandit is content with "What?" *After seven years with Mia, it feels strange to have a horse who neither needs nor wants an explanation*. But because of that, I think I'll get the best results with Bandit using a more directive, dominant approach. I view that as adjusting my style of riding to match my horse's needs rather than a change in my philosophy of riding.

Mia was an unusual horse. I'm beginning to understand why so much advice about horses seemed strange to me. Mia was a tough horse for a beginner. But I think many folks have always ridden "Bandits" and "Troopers", sometimes for decades, and they then don't believe a "Mia" exists.

It would also explain why some people insist on taking a more dominant approach to horses - it has worked for them, and may work for them their entire lives, provided they never meet a "Mia"...


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

BSMS, I think after Mia, a mule would seem like a cakewalk in comparison- and honestly, a horse as complicated as Mia sounds like hell for a beginner or someone who just wants to relax!  Not that Buddy or the mules I've worked with after him have been particularly stereotypical in their actions, and mostly with mules I have found that a consistent approach where the expectations are clear from the beginning, but the rewards are big when you do something right, works best for them. 

I have no doubt you'll get Bandit's confidence as well as his cooperation. He may also just be that type of guy - Mia sounded like she would have made a fantastic lead mare, a real Type A personality. A complicated personality always leaves a huge mark on you when you work with them for a long time, and it feels like perhaps you will need to gain confidence that you can let down and let go from time to time. A Mia doesn't allow that, but Bandit sounds like he will definitely give you more than ample opportunity.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

It may be time to start a thread for Bandit.

Rather than for Mia's replacement.

I'm not suggesting to cease caring and thinking about Mia, or forgetting, or even 'moving on'.

Only to look at Bandit on his own merit. Not holding him up to another.

I grew up across the street from a family with 9 children. The Mother was asked how she managed to divide her love between all of them. Her reply was that she did not divide her love, she multiplied it.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

anndankev said:


> I grew up across the street from a family with 9 children. The Mother was asked how she managed to divide her love between all of them. Her reply was that she did not divide her love, she multiplied it.


This is so lovely, Ann! 

And while we're talking mathematically ;-) - infinity divided by two is the same as infinity divided by nine - it's still infinity.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

From another thread, although I'll record it here since it has to do with what I'm doing with Bandit:



bsms said:


> This is a passage I liked in The Dressage Formula:_"The three cardinal principles of riding are: Forward, Calm and Straight..._
> 
> _ ...When the horse is carefully steeped in a consistent routine; hand-led with firm kindness and respect, the animal becomes mentally matured and mellow...a willing and generous worker, confident in mankind_" - pg 49 & 51
> 
> ...


In comparing Bandit and Mia, I'm not saying Mia was or is a better horse. In truth, I couldn't have ridden her solo around our block a few times without a lot more drama than I got from Bandit, and that much drama took the fun out of things. I'll probably have more solo miles with Bandit by December than I had with Mia in 7 years.

He may have an old injury of some sort. Even going down a paved road, he regularly leads with his right shoulder. I've found that if I move the left stirrup a little away and put weight into it, while supporting him with my right leg, he straightens out. Do that for 75 yards, and he'll be good for maybe 3-400 yards. He also straightens out at a trot.

But his trots are getting more relaxed, and his transitions less abrupt, and he is getting calmer with a routine of riding 6 days a week, so we're making progress. I could easily see us doing much the same thing for the next 6-12 months, trying to lay a foundation. But a year from now, he'll only be 8. And if there is something mildly wonky about his conformation...well, 95% of my riding will be at a walk or modest trot, and mostly in straight lines. I won't be asking him to race, do hard stops, spin, jump or do much of anything that a horse doesn't do normally.

If I'm reading him right, he likes to get out, and he likes to come home. That will work for me.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I watched this video by Sylvia Loch:






Unhappily, what she says about the back rounding up is physiologically incorrect. The back does not round up. The horse uses the rear end to thrust the sagging back upwards, but this does not improve the horse's weight bearing ability. To carry more weight, the horse adjusts its strides - shorter steps, longer contact between the leg and the ground, etc.

At 2:48, she talks about how the rider's weight is all on the back, and connecting the back end and the front builds a bridge. But as a fan of Littauer, I have to ask - wouldn't it make more sense to put more weight to the front, closer to the front leg and where the horse's center of gravity lies? Particularly with a faster moving horse, since the faster horse shifts its center of gravity even more forward.

In terms of efficiency, does a horse move "better" with higher steps, or with flatter steps? When I jog, I know how I move more efficiently - with longer, flatter strides, and the least upward thrust against gravity possible.

At 4:30, she gives the standard dressage statement when the horse is on the bit: "_only then are we in a position to direct the horse, and tell him where to go and how we want him to go...ie, do we want him to walk, trot or canter, slow or fast..._"

For the goals of dressage, that might be true. But for the vast majority of recreational riders, it is not. I haven't put a horse on the bit once in my 7 years of riding, yet I manage "_to direct the horse, and tell him where to go and how I want him to go..._"

Indeed, her admission that it takes a lot of time to develop the muscles that allow a horse to 'round' implies it is a harder way of going for the horse. If we wish to ride with kindness and connection, then shouldn't we ride in the way most compatible with the horse's natural movement, and requiring the least physical effort by the horse, in accordance with our goals?

If those goals include fully collected gaits, then it becomes a requirement. But how many horses have ANY need to perform collected gaits? Mia could turn up her own butthole while hollow, turning hard enough that the poleys of the saddle bruised my thigh. Bandit can be braced AND stop so fast I'm hard pressed not to slide off the front of the saddle. Since I never desire a horse to move that violently, yet they can without any training in collection, just how necessary is collection? [Note: I'm using collection is its dressage sense, of a sustained collected gait, not a short term balance shift in preparation to do something else.]

That is why I think any question of "good riding" requires someone to first define "good for what"? A cutting horse needs to do things a trail horse does not, and a barrel racer has another set of needs. A race horse needs something else, and a jumper yet another._"I strongly believe that every one of us should think twice before asking the horse to do something which is not imperative for the game to which the horse is assigned...To me there is great satisfaction in knowing my work increases the riding pleasure of a great many people, at the same time frequently stopping the unintentional abuse of their horses...And in such cases I don't care whether his shoulders mover properly or whether his hp joints bend properly. These, in my estimation, are artistic details, while my accomplishment was fundamental._" - Schooling Your Horse, V.S. Littauer pgs 8-9​I am bothered when recreational riders don't think about their goals, and then try to figure a way to achieve those goals at the least cost to the horse possible. I could spend time trying to teach Mia or Bandit to do a sliding stop. But why would I stress their joints doing sliding stops unless there was some overriding reason why I needed to do them? Bandit can easily do a 180 deg turn on a 6 foot wide trail, and tighter if needed. I have no need for him to do it at speed. A barrel racer might, but I do not.

A horse has a very small area of very good vision - close to humans - and a huge area of poor vision. They move their heads to see what they are interested in, just as I do wearing my bifocals. Unless there is some overriding need, how do I justify preventing them from being able to see what they want to see?

Different people have different goals, and I don't want to judge their goals in riding unless there is clear evidence of abuse. After all, some say ANY riding is abusive, and many would give me the stink eye for riding my horses in a desert - hot, rocky and DRY. Many would also question my owning horses at all, since mine live in a corral. I cannot point fingers at others without some measure of hypocrisy.

But at a minimum, don't I need to be willing to consider any evidence that there is a better, less intrusive way of doing things?


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

I think the rounder back only improves weight carrying ability when the muscles have built up along the back by doing that work , not just rounding the back means they can carry weight better. A poor unmuscled horse will often have a sagging back, a horse worked often with a rounded back with have a well muscled back and as long as the saddle fits correctly. If the back sags then you can clearly see how the topline muscles are not working together. If they raise and muscle their backs it can help them to move athletically, but it is down to the rider if that is a desired affect.

My haffy mare, who was a walking skeleton when I got her, took a long time to grow muscle and it was fascinating to watch it develop, long reining helped a great deal.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Yeah, I enjoyed reading Sylvia Loch's dressage book because of her philosophy of riding more than anything else. She did have some good technical points but also some I didn't think were necessarily correct. Plus, on one of the riding videos I thought her horse was showing a fair bit of bother and not particularly relaxed. But nobody is perfect, and I am happy to learn from other people's experience, particularly if their horses look happier than some of the ones winning dressage competitions!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A horse definitely needs to USE its back to support weight. Rounding is a popular image, but the truth is that the back always sags some under weight, and the amount of rounding in a trained dressage horse is miniscule. Most of what feels like rounding is the change in thrust from the hind legs, going from horizontal to something with a more upward vector.

It does make it easier (once learned) for a horse to then turn quickly or stop well, and it can give a smoother ride. It certainly is not wrong!

I think I like how Chamberlin and Littauer described it, from their perspectives as cavalry officers who had watched hundreds of experienced by not necessarily gifted men attempt it. They felt modest, short-duration collection both doable and useful for almost any horse and rider, but serious collection required more "tact" than the average cavalry officer possessed. They both thought it was beautiful when done right, but atrocious when done wrong - and too many of those who tried it did it wrong.

Bandit is teaching me that some horses find contact reassuring. He doesn't want it all the time, but a couple of minutes at a stretch seems to help his confidence.

But on the flip side, there is also much to admire in the western approach of teaching self-carriage by using the bit, but then letting the horse "pack the bit" while carrying himself. That is also a harder goal than some realize, and many western riders abuse the bit - and abusing a bit with 8" shanks is incredible abuse!

I also genuinely enjoyed reading "The Dressage Formula". It is well written and gave me a number of things to think about. I'll probably go ahead an order a book by Sylvia Loch. I've learned a lot by reading books by great jumpers, although I don't jump and now ride in a western saddle. In fact, it may be easier to learn from someone whose brings a different set of assumptions to the game.

It probably comes down to what folks often advise about DVD trainers - don't make any of them a deity, don't assume any of them have THE answer, but think about what they say and do and then discuss it with your horse. 

One of the lessons Mia taught me: Horses will work hard and willingly for an incompetent idiot, provided the idiot means well and listens...:wink:

This is a horse rounding its back as hard as possible...still pretty level...but in this case, it doesn't look like an enjoyable ride:


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

The back does always move down under the weight, of course it does, but the image of a back rounding is still true though as once on, you can noticeably feel the horse lift it's back and round when a trained horse is asked to do so. It is a very distinct feeling and I would guess this is what instructors are trying to convey. A strong trained horse will raise you up as the back rounds but in my lessons it is a rare event for my horse to achieve, but feels fantastic when it happens (not as in your photo though :lol


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The back, as measured from the withers to the hip, does not lift up. At best, it sags less. That is from Hillary Clayton, who loves dressage but has measured back movement. IIRC, the decrease in sag is no more than about 1/2 inch under a rider (more without).

Dressage collection involves two parts. There is a shift of weight to the rear, and an elevating of the withers. That elevation of the withers comes about because the horse is trying to lift what is essentially a beam. To lift it under the rider, partway along the beam, it must also lift the withers at the end of the beam.

I think it is an important distinction because I've had too many people tell me the horse rounds its back, creating an arch and an arch is structurally stronger than a sag, so the horse can carry more weight like that.

"_The horse’s vertebral column works exactly the opposite way. The amplitude of the vertebral column movements is very limited and *the primary function of the back muscles is to ensure that the vertebral column movements remain within the limits of the vertebral column’s possible range of movement.*_

_One may think scientific measurements are wrong since, as a rider, one feels a large amount of motion. This was exactly my thought when I read Leo Jeffcott’s study, __“Thus, the total range of movement in the dorso-ventral direction of the equine back was only 53.1mm under these experimental conditions” (Natural Rigidity of the Horse’s Backbone, 1980.)__ Fifty-three, point one millimeters is a little less than two and a quarter inches. [Note - I think this is on a back without a rider...not 100% sure.] The truth is that the rider is seated where the forces generated by the hind and front legs are having the greatest effect on the horse’s vertebral column. The large amplitude of movement perceived by the rider is not the motion of the horse’s vertebral column, but rather the sum of the horse body’s movement. Until scientific measurements demonstrate otherwise, it was legitimate for the rider to attribute the large amplitude of movements perceived on the saddle as the motion of the horse’s vertebral column." - Jean Luc Cornille (a dressage rider)_

Jean Luc Cornille discoveries of the horses spine and the influence on traning horses.

The same website has lots of good reading. I liked this cartoon, which shows how I feel about a common practice of NH trainers:









​ 
I've already learned some things by reading dressage texts, and have several ideas on things I can use in working with Bandit. My goals in riding are actually very low, so there is a lot that can be done that I won't ever attempt. That does not, however, make it wrong to try those things. 

Well, as long as we are not talking about pulling the horse's head from one knee to the next...:icon_rolleyes: Also liked this paragraph:

"_Making the horse executing the move without preparing the horse’s physique for the athletic demand of the performance does not allows full expression of the horse talent and predisposes the horse to injuries. Most training techniques explain how to teach shoulder in or half pass or flying change or piaff, but they do not know how the horse does it, at the least at biomechanical level. Therefore, they cannot prepare efficiently the horse’s physique for the athletic demand of the performance. This is where horses and riders difficulties are created and misinterpreted. Behavior theories accuse the horse of laziness, insubordination and other absurdities. Incapacity to soundly understand the complexity of the athletic demand shatters riders’ confidence and intuition._"

There is just so much to learn! The more I know, the less I know. Frustrating!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> A horse definitely needs to USE its back to support weight. Rounding is a popular image, but the truth is that the back always sags some under weight, and the amount of rounding in a trained dressage horse is miniscule. Most of what feels like rounding is the change in thrust from the hind legs, going from horizontal to something with a more upward vector.


I wonder how much of that stuff is figurative rather than actual. Did you read the end of that discussion you were in where people were going on about weight in the stirrups versus weight in the heels? I didn't get involved, but that's just Road Runner type physics!! I think the whole "weight goes into heels" is ludicrous if people are taking that literally. It might be a nice meditation tool to help people lower their heels - kind of like relaxation meditations suggest, "You are feeling heavy...your arms and legs are getting heavier..." and of course the mass of the person and their various bits of anatomy isn't changing, and neither is the gravitational force.

If you really did _push_ weight into the heels - in reality, apply force towards the heels - then you would no longer have a relaxed leg. The creation of tension in the body isn't helpful for riding. It's indeed more helpful imagery to say, "Raise your toes and relax your legs!"

As for putting weight in the stirrups: Let's take a hypothetical 70kg rider. That person's legs will be perhaps 15kg apiece. The rider's bottom is in the saddle. When sitting in the saddle (as opposed to posting, which doesn't happen at the levels of dressage they were discussing on that thread) the backside of the rider will be taking the weight of the rider above the backside, and a fair bit of it below, since the legs are attached to it too. Then there's the static friction (hopefully ;-)) of the rider's legs against the saddle supporting some of the weight of the legs. So when you're not posting, how much weight is left?

I thought about that when riding today. I found I was actually just resting the ball of my foot very lightly on the stirrup, with no greater force than resting my hand on the back of a sofa. I'd say my stirrups support probably just the weight of my feet, and not of anything above it, when I'm riding sitting. We could test this by putting some Newton meters between the leathers and the stirrup and correcting for the weight of the stirrup. I would think that the more competent the rider, the less force on the stirrups. Becoming competent at riding means not relying so much on your stirrups. That's why good riding schools make you sweat through lots of stirrupless trotting and cantering from the go-get.

And as for posting, the more competent you are and the more independent your seat, the less force you will be applying to the stirrups as well.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

...and when I'm on HF, I apply no force to my stirrups when posting! ;-)


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

The rounding may be miniscule but the feeling is enormous, just as when a horse sees something exciting (another horse or maybe the hunt across the fields) they can grow several hands! - or at least that is what it feels like (but physically not possible) and I really think the feel of it is the most important issue. The feel is real and different and a important sign of how the horse is moving, but it may or may not be a desired or required feel. It is also not one that is easy to achieve and some riders may never experience it or desire to.

I also agree with SueC , many dressage descriptions are figurative as describing our personal and intimate relationship and language between rider and horse is a challenge to say the least.

When you do back stretches (running a finger under the stomach) the back lifts a few millimetres and this often imitates the lifting when a horse rounds and comes soft. A strong horse with athletic core muscles will carry themselves more lifted like this anyway.

Some videos of back lifts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01ZRtkl2X3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dfag6NjD2_U

The horse when working and engaging stomach muscles makes the same lift and a sensitive rider will feel this.

Not sure about this last video as never really used specific aids to raise the back, but usually as part of a whole way of going, but maybe that is why it is rare for me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5HWhvDV9gw


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I also found a good way to help build up topline (as well as general condition) in my Arabian mare was to harness drive her on our sand track - then she could use her back freely too. So driving her was on my conditioning programme for her when I still had her at my parents' place. Not many people consider that option, but it works well as a complementary exercise to riding.

Another person I know gets her horse to do squats on a big beach ball thing:

https://augustusthemustang.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/learning-to-sit/

I don't think anyone is arguing that building up a horse's back muscles isn't a good thing to do - and that's the main literal "rounding" that I see in well-conditioned horses.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Yes, my saddler and back person gets us to improve backs by not riding and long reining so similar to driving. They can then lift and work their backs unhindered and the muscles can develop.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

And this effect is multiplied when the horse is pulling a little bit of weight through sand. That really engages its back and quarters. 

Here's the topline of a harness horse just retired from racing at the obligatory age of 14:










I thought I'd throw that one in so people can see what an unridden equine athlete looks like in terms of muscling. This one has escaped being upside-down in the neck in part because we don't race horses in fixed headchecks that artificially elevate their heads. I think he'd be a nice riding horse in his retirement, but I'm already riding his (paternal) half-brother.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Weight in stirrups/heels: Most people say heels, but obviously weight can go into the stirrups. That is a forward riding principle, as taught by Caprilli or Chamberlin or Littauer. Plenty of weight applied to the stirrup, and NOT a relaxed leg draped against the horse.

Why?

If you watch the back of a horse at the canter, there is very little movement at the withers. But the back moves dramatically, rotating up and forward with the pivot at the withers. The stirrup bars are at the withers, very close to where the horse's center of gravity is (unless the horse collects). So by carrying weight in the stirrups, the saddle can freely pivot WITH the back as the back raises, freeing the back to move. It also means the rider can get slightly off the saddle, freeing it more. If the goal is a forward balance, it helps with moving the rider's center of gravity forward over the horse's.

Of course, all that changes as the horse collects, the horse's center of gravity moves back, etc. How important it is depends on how the horse moves.

I rode Cowboy today for the first time in several years. He is our 13 hand pony mustang. Surprisingly, the saddle I had made for Mia fits Cowboy almost perfectly. I couldn't get a closer fit if I custom ordered one! Kevin had it made 1.5 inches shorter than that model is normally made - 25" instead of 26.5. And it fits Cowboy better than it fits Bandit! :eek_color: The freeze brand is his BLM marking. Cowboy was born in the wild.








​ 
We spent about 15-20 minutes arguing. He had at least 6 owners before coming to us 3 years ago, and almost all of his riding since has been with inexperienced riders. We had arguments about direction, speed, would Cowboy lead, etc. After 15 minutes, I was soaked with sweat. But a few minutes later, Cowboy started to settle.

I rode him forward in my western saddle, much of the time in a long-legged half seat. I worked hard to matching my balance to his. I had plenty of weight in the stirrups (or heels, I get annoyed with folks worrying about which word is used). With Cowboy's short back, I did NOT want to put weight on his loins...although it is not possible to ride him without it, and his loins would fit a tank. I'd guess Cowboy's weight is around 700 lbs, and there was 200 lbs of man and saddle on his back - 29%.

Somewhere along the line, Cowboy had a good rider. After about 30 minutes, he settled down and was a joy to ride. His balance was excellent. He started leading with confidence and trusting me to hold him back when Trooper (who is 7 inches taller) fell behind. Going into or out of the wash, or in deep sand, he picked the best part of the trail to use. If it was rocky, he put his feet where it made sense. It is hard to describe, but I could feel him keeping balance beautifully. Before long, I was totally confident I could take him across a rough trail and he would keep his balance. I could ask him to trot, slow, turn, go back, go forward - he would do anything without hesitation and with an ease of motion I didn't expect from him.

During the second half of our ride, I rarely made contact with his mouth. No need. He knew what needed to be done. We trotted 13.0 hand Cowboy and 14.3 hand Trooper side-by-side the last 300 yards, going down a hill and back up to our house. I had weight in the stirrups, was using my leg muscles...but it worked well for us. He was moving better for me than for my 100 lb DIL. He showed no sign of discomfort.

There is no requirement to ride that way. A good dressage rider or ANY good rider could have ridden him and had the same result. I think the forward system works well for me because my back injury gives me a stiff back...and in forward riding (as taught by Littauer or Chamberlin), that isn't all bad. It would be very hard for me, with my back, to absorb the horse's motion with my back while sitting firmly in the saddle.

It also is what I'm used to doing. I rode out countless spins and bolts on Mia like that. Blame a former HF moderator, maura, for getting me hooked. She said she felt more confident riding a rough horse in her jump saddle than anything else and recommended I read Littauer's books. I hurt my back just after I started riding (thanks, Mia). That approach allowed me to ride and protect my back during the years when I couldn't go jogging because of the pain.

So for me, it works. It is certainly harder work than sitting in the saddle like a real western rider would, but I feel confident and balanced doing it. My horses respond well for me.

I would never tell anyone they had to ride like me! What gets me upset is when I'm told the choice is between riding in the way the Dressage Masters would approve, or being "sloppy", "lazy", "unbalanced", etc. Cowboy really knows his stuff. In 3 years, I hadn't seen it because he wasn't ridden by a rider who could bring it out. But that little fellow moves beautifully on a trail - with slack reins. Weight in the stirrups. Strong leg. Firm back. Someone somewhere taught him how to balance himself and a rider, and he can do it better than any of the other horses I've ridden.

If I sound surprised...I am. I never expected he would move so well with so much weight!

I'm sure he would also work beautifully for you, Clava, and you, SueC. And if you chose to ride him in a dressage or center balanced style, or with less emphasis on the stirrups - well, you two could probably make it work with him. I couldn't, and a man needs to know his limitations.

Littauer believed a forward seat was so easy that he could teach a total beginner to jump a 3' fence in 12 rides. I don't know about that! But it was a very easy approach to riding balanced for me to learn. Over time, I want to relearn a more traditional approach on Bandit. I think it is possible. But I have a hunch my back will mean I'll always ride a forward seat better than anything else. MY limitation. But it isn't much of a limitation, given how Cowboy rode today at 29% of his weight! 
:loveshower:​ 

BTW - in another dressage book, the author recommended riding an inexperienced horse using a "light seat", which sounded from the description like a half-seat. He said it encouraged the horse to use its back, and that foundation had to be laid solid before anything else was attempted. I know I come across as anti-dressage, but I actually have had a lot of good advice from dressage authors. I just don't want to adopt it totally.

PSS - Cowboy also has awesome feet!


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Styles of riding vary enormously and rarely do I find people say other riders are lazy or should do such and such, but suggestions are made when someone has an issue or wants to change things. I hack out my horse on the buckle at times and in a contact at other times, I don't think of it as lazy, just relaxed  - most of us ride for pleasure (and for the pleasure of a horse's company) and at the end of the day that is the most important thing.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> Weight in stirrups/heels: Most people say heels, but obviously weight can go into the stirrups. That is a forward riding principle, as taught by Caprilli or Chamberlin or Littauer. Plenty of weight applied to the stirrup, and NOT a relaxed leg draped against the horse.


Well, clearly I've been doing it all wrong for 35 years then, and must start over. 

But where does that leave the bareback rider? 

My horses are plenty forward, and as Clava says, riding styles differ... and indeed you said it yourself recently! ;-P (even if Littauer et al didn't ;-))

By the way, I agree that not sitting the gallop but perching in the stirrups is easier on the horse!


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

I'm not for weight in heels, in my book heels should be light and springy and often level or slightly lower at the heel.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

...and when you're perching in the stirrups, you still have more of your weight on your knees than the stirrups, at least in an English saddle... and a good part of the shift of weight is actually through the rider leaning forward. Now where's my Newton meter? ...night all, really bedtime here...;-)


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The bareback rider, or someone riding without stirrups, needs to carry the weight with their thighs or knees. There simply isn't anything past that for support. When I try it, my thighs get tired fast. Same for posting. If I post from my thighs, I'm too pooped to pop real fast. Using the stirrups, I can go much longer.

I think there are two schools of thought for forward riding. The Italian school largely ignored the stirrup and put heavy emphasis on the knee and thigh. Mostly the knee.

The American Military seat, developed by Chamberlin and taught to the US Cavalry by him and others, put heavy emphasis on the stirrup. They had the weight flowing uninterrupted into the stirrup (heel). Taken to its logical conclusion, you have folks jumping the way Gen Patton did:








​ 
When jumping like that, the ability of the back to pivot freely around the stirrup bar is huge. Paul Cronin calls it a "stirrup-centric" approach. No stirrup work is then used in case someone loses their stirrup. SInce my first manuals on riding were the US Cavalry manual and Littauer, guess how I ended up riding...:icon_rolleyes:

I don't jump, but I found it an effective approach on a horse who spins hard. All that weight down low, with a solid leg along the side, means the rider is spun around with the horse instead of having the horse spin around out from under him. That may also be a terrible slander to the other approach, which I haven't tried enough to know. When I've tried dropping stirrups very low on Bandit and staying loose, it seems to work. It just feels unnatural to me - not my habit pattern. When the horse hits the fan, my heels are my anchor. They ain't moving on my horse, so the rest of me is staying on as well.

Three years from now, I might write something very different. I simply have not tried that approach long enough to feel comfortable. It is me that is the problem. Not the style of riding. I just wish others would extend me the courtesy of being happy AND balanced in the way I was first taught.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is from Littauer's "Common Sense Horsemanship" The italics are where a student of Littauer makes comments. Note the sneering at the end, which matches the sneering sometimes seen in the opposite direction.

Also note this is very different from what is taught as "classical riding", and I suspect it is very different from what is taught as forward riding in Europe today. It matches very well what the US Cavalry manual taught in the 1940s.
4) Then the stirrups will come directly under the body and the rider can at will stand in them as he would on the floor.

_When doing this I felt that were the horse to be suddenly withdrawn from under me and my body lowered in that same position to the ground I would find myself standing on the ground, squarely on both my heels._

5) Put part of your weight in the stirrup and, pulling your heels down, feel as if the weight in the stirrups actually went into the heels.

_When this happened the muscles of my calf stretched while those in the thigh contracted- this made my leg hard and I was able to grip the saddle more strongly._

6) Tilt your torso forward from the hips - until your body gets balanced in the stirrups.

_Then I realized that with only a small inclination forward of my body I was united with my horse moving at the walk._

7) ..._When my head was up and my chest open my hollowed loins started pressing the pelvis forward wedging it further into the saddle. With an alert position of the torso I found it easy to balance myself and to remain united with the horse in motion. After I was able to execute the above points I found myself about half standing in the stirrups with a very springy body_...

8)... _I felt that the benefits of these springs could be lost by: a) greatly decreasing the weight in the stirrups. Without using the stirrups the tension in those springs was completely gone. b) If I pinched the saddle strongly with my knees the flow of weight into the stirrups was partially cut off._

9) At the walk, trot and canter, when the horse behaves, use the grip which merely consists of a permanent, effortless contact between the saddle and the lower thighs, inner surfaces of the knees, and upper calves.

10) During the gallop or jumping, or when the horse misbehaves, increase the frictional grip with these three parts of the leg.

_Having ridden in the past that type of seat in which the fixed knee was the basic part of the rider's position, I find that I retain to this present day a certain stiffness due to the harder grip of the knee than is warranted under normal circumstances._

_ When starting a gallop and approaching a jump- hence changing from a contact grip to a strong one- I found that unless I had my weight well into the stirrups the action of gripping strongly squeezed me up and out of the saddle. A constant strong grip for a lengthy period made me stiffen up. Little by little I learned to use the strong grip only in those instances when it was really necessary._

11) For better gripping and in order to bring the upper calf in contact with the saddle:- a) keep your toes open about 30 degrees...The three hinges ...are completely free in their motions, just as free as the ball bearings in some highly sensitive and well greased machine...If anything were to happen, the rider in a split second would have a very strong position by stiffening from the waist down-thighs, knees, calves will then grip strongly- but while just walking quietly the rider relies mostly on his balance. To see whether he is really in balance with the horse, the rider should try the following experiment; without increase in inclination in his torso and without any lurching up or forward he rises slightly in his stirrups and stays up while the horse walks, without toppling forward or collapsing backwards. The rider's weight is then supported by the stirrups, and this attitude is given stability by the tension in the three springs...This incidentally, is also the rider's position during the upward beat of the posting trot and at the gallop...

_Having started my riding on forward seat principles I quickly became accustomed to this attitude, and had really no trouble preserving it during long stretches of riding. However, many of my friends who had "gone forward" after many years in the saddle along classical lines have complained to me that they get stiff backs from keeping the loin caved in, and stiff ankles from having their weight in the stirrups. It is true that complete relaxation of all the rider's muscles and joints can be had when walking with the leg hanging down and the back slack, but this practice makes the horseman "ride heavy" (a dead weight on the horse's back). So, while indulging occasionally in the slothful luxury of riding like a sack to rest one's weary bones, I think that all should give a thought to the poor animal for whom this way of riding is just that much more work. (Especially at fast gaits, or during really long walking periods, particularly if the rider is heavy). _
​Pages 76-83. Underlining is mine. Weight in the stirrups was a fundamental part of this style of riding. I will say it makes it very easy to stay on a horse when things go wrong - that is my personal experience. Others may vary.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> Three years from now, I might write something very different. I simply have not tried that approach long enough to feel comfortable. It is me that is the problem. Not the style of riding. I just wish others would extend me the courtesy of being happy AND balanced in the way I was first taught.


Is anyone giving you a hard time about that? If you're happy and balanced, that's great! 

I guess there are multiple ways to be happy and balanced.

Remember this one? ;-)










It's amazing how many laughs his riding has attracted, but he's balanced enough to do well with his steed in Bavarian Ox Racing and I'm sure he's happy!  I think it's great!

:cowboy:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

By the way, I really enjoy discussions like this one with multiple views and being reminded that there are different schools of thought and all have something to contribute. I also like being kept on my toes by being confronted all over again with different theories.

But I have to admit that now I'd like to get a Newton meter and start measuring the actual weights placed in stirrups by riders of different styles. I still have a hunch that even the styles that say "put weight in them deliberately" are not putting quite as much weight in them as they might imagine.

Me, I just have invisible velcro from all the bareback. ;-)


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

" I still have a hunch that even the styles that say "put weight in them deliberately" are not putting quite as much weight in them as they might imagine."

In my case, it would sometimes max out. In two point, I'm pretty much standing in the stirrups. My stirrups are 3.5" wide. If I ever replace them, I'll go to either 4 or 5 inch stirrups. For my Australian style saddle, I use 4-bar stirrups. The 2-bar can numb my feet. And the stirrup straps on my western saddle are 3" wide, so they function somewhat differently than with an English saddle.

There are other times where I strive for what a western rider suggested: Pretend you have a raw egg between your foot and the stirrup. For walking down a level trail, I can't think of a good reason to have much weight in the stirrups. On a misbehaving horse, however, I revert to what I learned and my lower leg becomes my anchor. I know it works. I think I would stay on anyways after 7 years, but I know I can stay on when my horse hits the fan using Littauer's techniques. When you are surrounded by cactus and rock, and you are 57, the temptation to experiment in an emergency and see what happens can get limited...:wink:

There are situations where I slide my feet forward. I find that leg position seems to reassure my horse when he/she is thinking about spinning - kind of like putting a fence on either side, while also saying, "I'm here, we're in this together". At other times, they come under my hip. What I really believe in is dynamic riding - constantly altering things based on what you are doing and what you want to do next. I'll use one hand on the reins, or two, and swap between them all the time. Rein length is constantly changing. Sometimes I want to be deep in the seat. Sometimes out of it. Per Tom Roberts, I now typically respond to a scared horse by switching to one hand and loose reins, deep in the saddle with feet forward.

Both Littauer and the US Cavalry tended to teach adults to ride. For the Cavalry, it was adult men. Littauer wanted to teach jumping, and doing so quickly. Like I said, he felt he could take an adult who had never ridden before and have them jumping 3' in 12 lessons. I started at 50. I was hurt within a couple of months, and then needed to figure out how to stay on a horse no matter what happens. It would be interesting to know if adult men need to learn a different approach than a teen.

One advantage to Bandit is that he is more trustworthy than Mia, and Cowboy much more so than Bandit. If I ride the two of them regularly, I might find myself building different habit patterns...maybe even conclude a different way is a better way.

But I'll say this for Littauer - his method got results for me when I really needed help, and I don't jump...


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> " I still have a hunch that even the styles that say "put weight in them deliberately" are not putting quite as much weight in them as they might imagine."
> 
> In my case, it would sometimes max out. In two point, I'm pretty much standing in the stirrups.


I wonder how much is actual weight in the stirrup versus having a _braced_ leg.. because there is a world of difference between someone in two point and someone standing in their stirrups with locked joints, though the actual weight would be the same if measured from the stirrups.

I have weight in my stirrups all the time, but sure do my best not to be bracing against them, even when posting.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I like this description: "The three hinges ...are completely free in their motions, just as free as the ball bearings in some highly sensitive and well greased machine..."

I stand on the ground all the time. I ought to stand in my stirrups like I stand on the ground. I don't stiffen my legs and fight the ground. An analogy would be standing on the deck of a small boat - your legs are carrying all the weight, but are not braced rigid. You move with the deck. You don't fight it.

I don't actually stand in my stirrups often except at a trot. I prefer sitting a trot most of the time, but switch if I want to free up my horse...I guess I could say I sit the jog and stand the trot, if that makes sense. Even then, my thighs will be taking part of my weight because the width of a western saddle doesn't give me much option. If you put an "A" on top of an inverted "U"...well, the thighs carry weight. When I used a jump saddle, I could get most of it into my stirrups.

I've never trotted for miles. It doesn't seem fair to ask a horse to do that on pavement. Off-pavement, the trails near me don't lend themselves to doing anything the same very long. I live on the alluvial plain of the Santa Rita Mountains. Going east or west, there are a thousand gullies crossing the path. Going north is a descent, going south a climb, but erosion means those parts of the trails have a lot of exposed rocks. Nothing I do requires me to go fast, so I figure prudence will preserve my horses. I know they can run flat out across very rocky ground in an emergency, but I can't believe it is healthy for them to do so regularly.

I sometimes forget how unusual my riding situation is. There is no such thing as riding across a meadow. If it isn't paved, it isn't level - and even our paved roads are rarely completely level. The dirt trails are hard enough and rocky enough that our horses prefer pavement. Leave the trail (ATV path), and you'd better plan on a slow walk. I've had unseen spines go thru my shoe when walking across country.

And Mia was even more unusual. Something I've come to really like about Bandit is he gives warning if he is uncomfortable. If he is startled, he'll try to move away from whatever startled him, but he doesn't explode. With Mia, one always had to be ready. The time she spun hard enough for her saddle to slip off came as I was thinking about getting some no stirrup work in because she was so calm and relaxed. Then BOOM! 1.5 circles of violent spin, then...standing still, puzzled about the unusual feeling on her back.

Another time, we had all 3 horses out, going along calm as could be. Suddenly, Mia & I were off the trail - 6 feet off the trail, but still parallel to the trail. My wife was behind me. She said Mia just jumped sideways. Happily, we didn't land on cactus...but we had big cacti in front, behind, and to one side.

Seven years of that left me paranoid. I find myself tensing up on Bandit when there is no reason to do so. He might give a little hop if startled, but he has yet to explode without warning - lots of warning, so riding him into an explosion would take deliberate stupidity on my part!

Cowboy is 17 or 18. Lots of owners, including 2 ranches and being a lesson horse. Riding him yesterday, it was obvious he would take advantage of an inexperienced rider. But it was also obvious that Cowboy was NOT going to do anything stupid that might get Cowboy hurt. He was startled twice, but he was obviously still thinking and rational. Once we came to an understanding about roles, it was very easy to trust him. Ridden right, he's 13.0 hands of good sense. I'm not sure I had ever felt that way on a horse before. Trust a horse? Inconceivable!

I still used my legs some. I was very aware of the need to protect his back. I'm not a big fan of percentage rules, but I was pushing 30% of his weight. Sitting heavy would just be darn rude! But yesterday may have been the most relaxed ride I've ever had. Maybe if I alternate riding Cowboy and Bandit, I'll learn to relax on a horse. 

THAT would be a big change in my riding! :loveshower:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

From this thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/harry-whitney-619937/



bsms said:


> Since I'm up in the middle of the night with a sore back...Post #5:" Kind of like, “I’ll stay in here with you until you can handle more. I won’t make it miserable and I won’t abandon you either. I’ll just be here, neither more nor less than you “ . But if the horse is not really all that scared but is just full of beans and blowing him off , he might add a bit more . . “ok, if you want to ignore the slow down, you can go a bit faster. See, that won’t work!” not punishment, but something that might encourage a change."​I don't have a round pen, but this is what I'm trying to learn to do and teach Bandit (and Mia before him) just riding around the neighborhood. There are things that blow Bandit's mind - a guy walking with a kid in a backpack and a sunshade that extends way up over both kid and man, kind of like a giant crab attacking the man. Since that was overwhelming, we needed to back off to a safer distance so Bandit could start thinking and assessing again. He can't learn if his mind is overwhelmed.
> 
> But there are lots of things that concern him without completely overwhelming him. He'll want to turn around, or back off at the first discomfort and never expand his emotional horizons. So I then need to support him: "_“I’ll stay in here with you until you can handle more...I won’t abandon you either."_ Voice, reins, leg, posture, breathing - all seem to be interconnected to Bandit (and Mia before him). When I ride him alone, I want him to understand that he is NOT alone.
> 
> ...


SueC asked the other day about US trainers who are NOT the "Do it or else" type. This sounds like one of them. TL says he does a lot of stuff in Arizona, so I need to find out if there is a clinic I could attend.

This comment also struck home, as an explanation of when dominance might be helpful:

"_He will not even have that possible choice on his list of things to do, so by forcing it to happen, you make him realize it’s a possible choice_."

PS - Bandit banged his knee last night around 1 AM, not sure how. It is swollen. He puts weight on it and he isn't limping, but it is quite swollen. So he getting a few days off. I hope to ride Cowboy later today - pushing 4 AM now, so back to bed.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Best wishes for your recovery. Back issues aren't fun. Pilates is great for mine but I have a feeling you have a more serious injury than me. Losing sleep because of that is really bad...

Nice to hear of more trainers who are thoughtful!  Sorely needed.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

...I'm sorry, I got confused, I could have sworn I read something about a back injury, and now I'm not sure if it was your thread...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The back injury was from my one fall off of Mia, during a dismount after a bolt in Jan 2009. All soft tissue damage, but it was 5 years before I could go jogging again and it still affects me - some days (or nights) more so than others.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Do you know what exactly is physically wrong? What was actually injured? It took me over a decade for someone to actually figure out the exact nature of my injury, which was from getting whacked in the back by a horse someone asked me to ride doing a sudden buck upwards in the middle of a _trot_, when I was posting, and coming down as the horse was coming up...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Mia bolted. I got her stopped, but I thought (correctly) she was about to bolt again over a bunch of large, jagged rocks. I had a couple of months of riding & was using an English saddle. I didn't expect to be able to stay on her if she bolted over those rocks, and coming off there would have killed me. 

So I tried to dismount. Halfway thru, with my right leg over her rump, she exploded. I went flying and landed on smooth dirt about 2' from the large rocks. But there was a rock about half the size of my fist there, and that was where my lower right back hit. The tissue affected is much larger, running from the point of impact in my back down under the buttock muscle, then down the outside of my right thigh to the knee.

After a couple of months, my wife convinced me to go to the doctor. At that time, I couldn't lie down on a bed without feeling like I was being stabbed. There was no bone damage, so they sent me to a few months of therapy...which was totally worthless.

After 6 months, the stabbing pain when sitting or lying down stopped. After 5 years, I was able to start jogging again. After 6.5 years...some days it doesn't hurt. Other times it aches. 

I bought my first Australian style saddle right after the accident because I could barely get on a horse. A few weeks after the saddle arrived, Lilly (our small Arabian mare) spooked. She jumped forward, did a 360 spin, jumped forward again, did a 180 and stopped. Since I was still in the saddle, I decided I really LIKED Australian style saddles!

I also asked some experienced friends what they would have done. They all agreed it was tough...with more experience or a better saddle design, riding Mia over the rocks would probably have been better. But since I had gone 25 years without touching a horse, and only had a couple months of riding in, and was using an English saddle...taking a fall where I did was better than taking one 50 feet into another bolt. It was one of those times where no good answers existed.

PS - Mia did bolt across the rocks, spin around a couple of times, then crossed the rocks again. By that time I was sitting on the ground, cussing and using her name rather obscenely. Mia heard her name, spun around and raced back to me. I thought I was going to be trampled. I managed to get to my feet. She came to a fast stop, stuck her head against my chest, and stood there trembling like a leaf, waiting for me to take care of her.

It was Mia at her worst and best. That incident really hurt my back. But when a horse runs to you, stops, puts her head against your chest and waits for you to make the bad things go away and take care of her...how do you resist?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I can see why you had a soft spot for that horse regardless of the difficulties. 

So do you think you have a soft tissue injury - with probable nerve involvement - maybe a nerve getting crunched a bit by that rock along with surrounding tissue?

My father once got a shot in the backside by a nurse whose aim was dodgy, and the needle scraped his sciatic nerve, and he had significant trouble for years. He's been forecasting weather changes based on the injury for as long as I've been around.

He also once injured his shoulder badly in a tractor rollover and was in pain for years, affecting his sleep. Doctor after doctor said, "You'll have to get used to it. Limited mobility and chronic pain." Until he found one who said, "I've just done an acupuncture course, do you want to give that a try?" And he was better after the first treatment, and pain-free after a few weeks, and has remained so, and his mobility went back to normal. Could be a coincidence, but I too have had good experiences with acupuncture.

Just don't move or even tense your muscles when you have acupuncture needles in! :rofl:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Thread continued here:

http://www.horseforum.com/member-jo...muddling-through-together-622121/#post8013161


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This journal has been closed due to prolonged lack of participation by the author. Journals that have no active participation by the author for a period of time greater than 18 months will be considered abandoned and will be closed until the author asks for them to be reopened.


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