# Obama administration won't seek deportation of young illegal immigrants



## texasgal

..... mmmmmmm ..... I better not ...


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## kitten_Val

texasgal said:


> ..... mmmmmmm ..... I better not ...


Lol! Feel free, TG. :wink: Frankly I have quite strong feelings about the article, because I don't see how praising those who violated the law is right thing to do and fair towards those who didn't.


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## tinyliny

the Dream Act would have been a much better choice, but it was a no go in Congress. We do not want to create a whole class of sub-citizen, but legal, workers such as they have in Europe (the "Arbeiters"). That is a grave mistake for our society, where upward mobility is the core of the American Dream.


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## gunslinger

November approaches.

Vote the fool out and lets move on.


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## Corporal

**** straight, GS.


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## PaintHorseMares

Regardless of what each of us may think is the right or wrong policy, the reality is that there is not enough manpower/money at any level (city, state, or fed) to effectively enforce any detention/deportation policy with regard to illegal aliens at all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal

By design. I think my Grandfather (RIP, 1989) deserves an apology by this administration. He came over to the USA in 1912 at 14yo, and completed his naturalization in 1922. HORRORS to think that anybody who immigrates here be asked to come to our country and follow our laws.
Even with the drug cartels, I am far less concerned about Mexicans, and others here illegally from other Latin American countries, and MUCH MORE concerned about Middle Eastern and Asian terrorists coming here through a liquid border. =/
THAT is why this is important.


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## attackships




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## gunslinger

PaintHorseMares said:


> Regardless of what each of us may think is the right or wrong policy, the reality is that there is not enough manpower/money at any level (city, state, or fed) to effectively enforce any detention/deportation policy with regard to illegal aliens at all.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



There may not be, but the least they could do is try.

When the states try to assist the feds enforce the policy they get smacked down.

The federal government is negligent and guilty of dereliction of duty.


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## FlyGap

Hunting for votes are we?

I do feel for the kids, but how are we going to track their taxes, or are we going to let them off scot free too? Are their children also available to receive the welfare and education *WE* taxpayers provide, YEAH. IS this going to make the States look super appealing to more illegals, YEAH. Oh, and all they have to do is CLAIM that they were brought here! No proof, no worries!

Obama also said at his latest "benefit" that the people present, rich odd fashion designers and celebrities, would be the ones to decide/turn the election (not said exactly verbatim). Reeealllllyyyyy??? Merle Streep and SJP are so important that THEY are going to be the ones to keep him in? God, I hope not.

The thrashing of Mitt, whom I'm still unsure of, but really anything somewhat solid would be better, for being "Uber Rich" and not down enough to earth is so hypocritical and just another HUGE scoop of poop on the pile makes me SICK. Especially when he says those RICH celebrities and pompous arses are going to "determine" the election? Accepting $30,000 meal tickets/donations... I won't spend that much money on food in 6 years.

Oh, and the horse thing is ABOUT TO DRIVE ME INSANE. That horse is creating more jobs, comparatively, than Obama. 

I am going to burn my computer, my TV, tear out my car radio, and stay hidden in the forest. Good luck guys.


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## Corporal

...can I have YOUR carrots?!?


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## Ink

FlyGap said:


> The thrashing of Mitt, whom I'm still unsure of, but really anything somewhat solid would be better, for being "Uber Rich" and not down enough to earth is so hypocritical and just another HUGE scoop of poop on the pile makes me SICK.



Kind of off topic. But there IS a third party candidate going to be on the ballot in all 50 states this year. I hope he poles high enough to get into the debates. So far I'm liking him way better than the two standard options we have :shock:

Gary Johnson 2012


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## FlyGap

I didn't say anything about my iPhone... LOL!
But sure, take all 3!!

What is so scary about that Ink, is if we vote for a lesser known candidate we are essentially throwing our vote away. I HATE to say that! There is no way I am going to help Obama, whomever else is close in polls will get my vote. Unless of course they are worse, which I don't think Mitt is.
I have heard of Johnson but haven't really checked him out. Thanks!


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## Faceman

attackships said:


>


 
Abandon the thread, ignore the issue, and end up like Southern California? Right...thanks, but no thanks...


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## Ink

FlyGap said:


> What is so scary about that Ink, is if we vote for a lesser known candidate we are essentially throwing our vote away. I HATE to say that! There is no way I am going to help Obama, whomever else is close in polls will get my vote. Unless of course they are worse, which I don't think Mitt is.
> I have heard of Johnson but haven't really checked him out. Thanks!



There-in lies the problem with a third-party candidate. People already have it in their heads that they are throwing their vote away. But if everyone were to vote for the third party candidate it wouldn't be throwing our vote away at all. LoL I'm in TN. Obama doesn't have snowball's chance in you know where of taking the state and I refuse to vote for Romney. So in a sense I don't have anything to lose lol.


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## FlyGap

I totally agree Ink. That's why I said I'd vote for the one who's closest in the polls.

As far as regulating the borders... Tax the CRAP out of Mexico until THEY solve this problem.


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## Bobby Lee

Wow!!!
You are all immigrants, right?


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## dbarabians

Without some path to legal status those young people will be torn from their families and deported to a country they do not know.
With millions of undocumented workers in this country billions would be spent finding housing and deporting them.
Billions that can be used for education, housing, and medical care for all.
My family spent years and thousands of dollars to ensure that Ricardo and Juana became US citizens. They came to this country at 12 and 11 years of age.
They worked for my family for years and raised a family here.
2 of their sons who were born here still work for us.
Jesus is in college and Miguel in high school. One son is a LT in the USAF and their daughter is graduating from college next year.
Ricardo and Jauna worked hard for years and now own 2 businesses and over a 100 acres.
They have never accepted a dime in charity or assistance.
Most immigrants fit the same mold, this country needs more people like them. Shalom


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> My family spent years and thousands of dollars to ensure that Ricardo and Juana became US citizens.


How were you able to legalize them? Just curious, because I don't know the way you can legalize the illegal unless you do it through the immediate relative or extreme hardship under certain conditions. Or refugee. 

I feel for kids, but fact is fact - they came here illegally and violated the law in 1st place. Giving them working permit is very unfair towards those who came here _legally _and have been keeping a legal status through the whole procedure. I'm not even talking about taxes, sending money back to Mexico and other countries for the family left there, illegals using public schools and hospitals (which cost lots of money), etc. 

IMHO decisions like this one should be made by the citizens (or at least the Senate), not Obama or Homeland Security.


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## tinyliny

there will be a relatively limited number of persons taking advantage of this "temporary" relief from the risk of deporations. This ruling applies only to persons _who are already here. It will not benefit, thus encourage, new illegal immigrants. _

They must be under the age of 30, have at least 5 years of "documented" residence in the US, have NO criminal record, be in or graduated from high school or college, and /or be in / or have reached discharge from the military (served honorably) . This does not allow them to gaurantee their parents right to legal residencs, tho. It only gives them temporary freedom from being deported. This is not a huge group of persons, but it is the group that have the most to contribute to the US, and have the hope to become productive citizens . . eventually.


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## kitten_Val

Actually, I have to say there is one exception to what I said. I was talking about those who came illegally or with the purpose to stay here illegally. However there are people with kids who came legally, stayed legally, and it took too long to get a status (so kids became older than the legal age to get status as well). Such kids indeed should be considered differently IMO.


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## kitten_Val

tinyliny said:


> They must be under the age of 30, have at least 5 years of "documented" residence in the US, have NO criminal record, be in or graduated from high school or college, and /or be in / or have reached discharge from the military (served honorably) . This does not allow them to gaurantee their parents right to legal residencs, tho. It only gives them temporary freedom from being deported. *This is not a huge group of persons*, but it is the group that have the most to contribute to the US, and have the hope to become productive citizens . . eventually.


tiny, are you saying most illegal people under 30 are dumb and/or criminal? :wink: I truly hope it's not a case. BTW, how can you even get into military if you are illegal?


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## Missy May

Bobby Lee said:


> Wow!!!
> You are all immigrants, right?


No more than _all_ current day UK citizens are Anglo-Saxon and Roman invaders, or _all _Native Americans just arrived from Asia. But, since you feel this way...perhaps we can send them all over to the UK? That would solve everything, really. No papers needed...just ship 'em on over. Last I checked, the "we are all immigrants" UK kind of wants to see people's passport at entry. 

And, ACTUALLY, the US has nearly always had "legal entry" process of some sort in place.


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## dbarabians

Te US army has willingly overlooked the citizenship of its recruits.
Which by the way you do not have to be a US citizen to be.
Because of my friendship with several recent immigrants I do know that the US Army does recruit heavily in the hispanic community and your citizenship can be attained by joining the army. Much faster than the regular way.
The casualty list from the recent wars is full of hispanic surnames.
I do know a lawyer that works for the INS in Dallas. If you have the time and the money it is not impossible to become a citizen of the USA.
Immigrants made this country and are vital to the success and growth we need in the next few decades.
In fact the immigrants do pay taxes and social security benefits which they will never receive as well as unemployment. Shalom


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## Missy May

I would just like to take this opportunity to point out that if you live in Mexico, but are not a citizen - you are not allowed to work - and you certianly can't vote. AND, Mexico has far, far, far more resouces per land mass than the US. It is NOT a poor country. China isn't a poor country, either...but nearly all of its citizens lived in poverty BEFORE the government made a few changes after Tung dropped and some of IT'S own citizens stared down tanks. 

Do you think the money these people make stays in the US??? One of Mexico's TOP sources of income is - cash flow from illegal immigrants coming back home.

If anyone thinks they should have a chance at a better life...then adopt a family or two of them in perpetuity, let your children take care of their children, etc.,...and leave _our _freedoms alone.


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## dbarabians

Missy May during the 1930's thousands of Jewish people were turned away because the qouta for Jews had been filled.
A ship full of refugees from Nazi Germany was refused port and its passengers returned to face certain death.
The immigration policies of the USA are not now nor have they been fair and impartial,
With the current levels of poverty in Mexico and Central america people who are desperate to feed not only themselves but their families will continue to come here.
The journey is not easy and it is very expensive.
The Coyotes as they are called are paid thousands of dollars to guide you across the border. Shalom


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## Missy May

dbarabians said:


> Te US army has willingly overlooked the citizenship of its recruits.
> Which by the way you do not have to be a US citizen to be.
> Because of my friendship with several recent immigrants I do know that the US Army does recruit heavily in the hispanic community and your citizenship can be attained by joining the army. Much faster than the regular way.
> The casualty list from the recent wars is full of hispanic surnames.
> I do know a lawyer that works for the INS in Dallas. If you have the time and the money it is not impossible to become a citizen of the USA.
> Immigrants made this country and are vital to the success and growth we need in the next few decades.
> In fact the immigrants do pay taxes and social security benefits which they will never receive as well as unemployment. Shalom


While wars made this country...starting w the revolution, I do NOT think killing in war time justifies murder. The former is "legal", the later is not.

The concern is ILLEGAL immigrants, not legal. And a LOT of illegals take advantage of _hundreds of billions_ of dollars worth of medical, schools, food, prisons, etc.,. And, many do not pay taxes - I am sure you are aware of that. 

And, actually, one has been able to gain citizenship by joining the military for a long time. And, I think we can see the flipside of that policy in a few muslim incidents. 

Which federal offense can I get a "pass" for, ya think? I really like that "equal treatment" part of the constitution...and I ain't feeling it.


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## Bobby Lee

Missy May said:


> No more than _all_ current day UK citizens are Anglo-Saxon and Roman invaders, or _all _Native Americans just arrived from Asia. But, since you feel this way...perhaps we can send them all over to the UK? That would solve everything, really. No papers needed...just ship 'em on over. Last I checked, the "we are all immigrants" UK kind of wants to see people's passport at entry.
> 
> And, ACTUALLY, the US has nearly always had "legal entry" process of some sort in place.


Ha ha how funny I was gonna point out I'm Italian, French, German, Scandinavian, yes we are probably one of the most *******ised nationalities. Your point? Passport on entry, sorry why not? No don't ship "them" all over here, it's for every nation to take a responsible role. You people wonder why you get a bad name? Up it muppet!


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## MyBoyPuck

I just don't get why we have a house, senate, elect all those representatives, and have three branches for the sole purpose of checks and balances, when a single ego-maniac can just trump the entire system and dictate how it's going to be so he can appeal to a demographic group in an election year? Why the frig do we need a democracy when this crap can happen regardless of it??? I don't fall on either side of the political fence, but this clown needs to go.


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## Allison Finch

I, for one, applaud this move. The children were not the ones who made the decision to enter illegally. They have incorporated into the culture, unlike many of their parents. They have become well educated. NOT on welfare as many will claim, but on their parents hard work. They will be good contributors to our country. I challenge citizens of this country to be as dedicated and hard working as many of these young people. Heck, I really doubt very many citizens could answer more than one or two questions on the test taken by new citizens.

Flame all you want, diehard conservatives. I will not change my mind here.


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## Missy May

dbarabians said:


> Missy May during the 1930's thousands of Jewish people were turned away because the qouta for Jews had been filled.
> A ship full of refugees from Nazi Germany was refused port and its passengers returned to face certain death.
> The immigration policies of the USA are not now nor have they been fair and impartial,
> With the current levels of poverty in Mexico and Central america people who are desperate to feed not only themselves but their families will continue to come here.
> The journey is not easy and it is very expensive.
> The Coyotes as they are called are paid thousands of dollars to guide you across the border. Shalom


I am very aware that ships full of jews were denied entry in the 1930's, as are _most_ people. This is a stain on our history. It is no more relavent than the controls on entry that is practiced by Israel, today. And I am fully aware of what they say cyotes make. This has NOTHING to do w it. Like I said, the folks in China were beyond poor a few decades ago b/c of their GOVERNMENT, not b/c of the US, the price of tea, or the position of the sun. Like I said, if ya feel sorry for them, adopt a few and leave me to the freedom to NOT.


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## dbarabians

There is a young man that has been in this country for all but 6 months of his life.
He is 21 married to an american citizen and the father of a child.
Gainfully employed.
He was stopped by the police and since he was with other s that were undocumented he was deported to mexico on friday night.
His family had enough money to get him back across the border and home for work Monday morning.
What good did it do to deport him? Nothing.
What are we to do with the parents of US citizens that are not here legally? deport the whole family?
The vast majority of undocumented workers WORK and support themselves.
They are not a drain on the economy.
The US citizens who refuse to work though are. Shalom


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## Missy May

Bobby Lee said:


> Ha ha how funny I was gonna point out I'm Italian, French, German, Scandinavian, yes we are probably one of the most *******ised nationalities. Your point? Passport on entry, sorry why not? No don't ship "them" all over here, it's for every nation to take a responsible role. You people wonder why you get a bad name? Up it muppet!


Short term memory problems? Your original post was, 

_Wow!!!
You are all immigrants, right?_

Remember? What was YOUR point?

I thought my point was pretty clear, and I certianly am not going to hold back b/c of your established prejudice against Americans, rather b/c I don't think you can follow along w the bouncing ball well enough to bother.


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## MyBoyPuck

dbarabians said:


> The vast majority of undocumented workers WORK and support themselves.


 
Drive around New Haven, Danbury, and Bridgeport Connecticut and then tell me if you still believe in your above words. There are so many illegals bottom feeding off our state aid, those of us working for to pay for their food stamps and "free" cell phones are sick of watching our taxes go up up up to pay for them.


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## Bobby Lee

Whatever, call me a hippy, a tree hugger i don't give one. I wont have these so called conservatives running amock telling everyone what's right and what's wrong

I think this says everything about my politics


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## Missy May

dbarabians said:


> There is a young man that has been in this country for all but 6 months of his life.
> He is 21 married to an american citizen and the father of a child.
> Gainfully employed.
> He was stopped by the police and since he was with other s that were undocumented he was deported to mexico on friday night.
> His family had enough money to get him back across the border and home for work Monday morning.
> What good did it do to deport him? Nothing.
> What are we to do with the parents of US citizens that are not here legally? deport the whole family?
> The vast majority of undocumented workers WORK and support themselves.
> They are not a drain on the economy.
> The US citizens who refuse to work though are. Shalom


Db, I already gave you my solution: you and all like minded individuals adopt entire families in perpetuity. Since they cost this country zero, by your statistics, then you should have no reservation about doing so.


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## dbarabians

Because of my families friendship with Ricardo and our ability to speak and read spainish I come into contact with most of the local immigrant population around here.
I know of none that do not work most have more than 1 job.
don't believe me go into the kitchen in any resturant in Dallas ask the cooks how many jobs they have.
Ask most manual laborer in my area if they are legal.
Immigrants do the jobs that most citizens of the US will not do.
Most large breeding farms and ranches employ undocumented workers.
They play a vital role in the horse and ranching industry.
I doubt that anyone would come to this country and suffer the trip to exist on the hand outs of the state or federal government.
First of all they do not qualify for any assistance from either the governement or non profit organizatoin. Shalom


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## dbarabians

The children that are citizens of this country do qualify for assistance Missy May. Their parents or siblings that are not citizens do not receive any help from the federal government.
Missy May glad your back hope that all is well. Shalom


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## tinyliny

kitten_Val said:


> tiny, are you saying most illegal people under 30 are dumb and/or criminal? :wink: I truly hope it's not a case. BTW, how can you even get into military if you are illegal?


 
I am saying that to be in the age group, have years residence already, have kept your nose totally clean and made efforts to educate yourself , or to serve in the military, . . .welll , I think this may not be as many people as one thinks. It describes the best of those that fall within the age/length of residence parameters.


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## oobiedoo

I'm sure most of us born here in the US have heard the words "there but for the grace of God go I". Most of us probably cant comprehend a life so hard and so bare of hope that we would risk death to escape it. So many die trying to get here to have a chance at a better life even when better for them is working 2-3 jobs that we wont work and for minimum wage at that.
some of them are lazy,dishonest and criminals, oh my God, just like some of us. There is no simple solution but for humanity's sake we have to start somewhere. As for taking in a family and supporting them I'd sure as heck rather take a Mexican family of people willing to work hard for very little pay than some American like my ex son-in-law that's been sitting on his gigantic a** for right at a year now drawing max unemployment pay and I could safely bet my life he hasnt really looked for a job.
So point here is we're not walking in their shoes and to generalize about the Mexicans is like saying all paint horses are crazy.

As far as presidents go I've always voted republican and didnt vote for Obama but I do remember reading an interview with him shortly after he took office and he said the thing that surprised him the most about being president was how little you could actually do. My daddy used to tell me that the president was just a figurehead, he can't do anything the senate and congress won't let him do. Case in point, last years stalemate over the budget. Grown men acting like a bunch of children refusing to discuss or compromise on anything.
I have to say unless the Republican party has someone else fly out their butt before November I'll be voting for anyone but Mitt Romney. Like the horse but not the jackass.


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## SHINE LIMITED

My people came thru ellis island quarantine and all.its amazing how a lot of people(not here on forum) want to make it an ethnic issue when its a legal one. I hate this pandering to select groups for votes especially in his position.taxpayers have no say and we pay for it all
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians

It is an ethnic issue.
The people that are adamantly against any immigration reform always talk about the threat to american culture, how immigrants need to assimilate, and the changing demographics of our country.
Not everyone does but the a sizeable and vocal portion of the anti immigrant crowd do.
I have never heard one complain about immigrants from Europe.
If you start a discussion about immigration sooner or later someone will bring up the racial issue.
People looking for a better life and more freedom made this country what it is today. The most powerful the world has ever known. Shalom


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## SHINE LIMITED

I repeat-pandering for votes from a select group legality and citizenship is at issue here this act targets one select conveniant group over another to get votes. Nothing else same deal for everybody or no deal
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians

Shine unlinited it is the same deal for all undocumented children of immigrants.
I have not seen anywhere that it is just for .......... group of immigrants suggesting that it is does bring up the racial issue. Shalom


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## SHINE LIMITED

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SHINE LIMITED

We all know what this is about. Votes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May

dbarabians said:


> It is an ethnic issue.
> The people that are adamantly against any immigration reform always talk about the threat to american culture, how immigrants need to assimilate, and the changing demographics of our country.
> Not everyone does but the a sizeable and vocal portion of the anti immigrant crowd do.
> I have never heard one complain about immigrants from Europe.
> If you start a discussion about immigration sooner or later someone will bring up the racial issue.
> People looking for a better life and more freedom made this country what it is today. The most powerful the world has ever known. Shalom


The word "immigration" requires that one understands space and time. In the case of human movement, it requires that one can understand the concept of borders _as well_ as countries. Illegal immigration requires that one understands the word "illegal". Not all immigration is illegal, just like all killing is not murder.

I have never heard _anyone_ complain about legal immigration - except for a few ignorant people that do not understand the Cuban immigration policies. 

There are multiple countries that have_ illegal_ immigration problems. Iran is one of them, which has a problem w _illegal _immigrants from Afghanastan. If it is JUST a matter of "all_ illegal_ immigrants should be given citizenship, free medical, housing and food", then it would not matter IN WHAT COUNTRY. And logically it shouldn't, b/c w/o borders there is no country. Mexicans in Mexico have a reputation of being particularly brutal to illegal immigrants that enter Mexiico from S. America. I don't see any US citizens protesting in Iran or Mexico for better treatment of illegal immigrants. Is it Mexico, Iran, and many other countries that should ignore their own borders and legalities when it comes to immigration...or just the US?? 

If there are no borders....there can be no invasion of any kind, including militarily. If people want to help "poor illegal immigrants"....then I have to assume they would feel equally compelled to assist the "poor misunderstood invading armies" at a future date.


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## SHINE LIMITED

That was brilliantly put Missy may.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May

Thank you, Shine.


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> Te US army has willingly overlooked the citizenship of its recruits.
> Which by the way you do not have to be a US citizen to be.


In fact you can get your citizenship MUCH faster if you join US Army (which is very fair if you ask me). But can you join if you are illegal? Don't they do some kind of background check there?


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> Immigrants do the jobs that most citizens of the US will not do.


Sorry, DBA, but that's simply not true. They do the those jobs, because the owner of the business tries to save money on wage (paying less than minimum), insurance, and other benefits. 

When friend of mine (LEGAL immigrant who just came to the country) tried to find a job (as a dish washer or cleaner in restaurant), in every one she applied (in person) she was told by the manager that they don't look for the legal person, it's a job for illegal. I was appalled to say the least.

And just to add... I live in area with lots of country folks. People who cut the grass, paint the houses, wash the dishes in restaurants around, work on roads, etc. ARE legal americans (I know lots who do so called "dirty jobs americans won't do"). When you have no job, a mortgage or rent to pay, and dependents who want to eat you won't be very picky.


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> I have never heard one complain about immigrants from Europe.


I've heard. And quite a lot I have to say.

P.S. Again, we are speaking "illegal" here. I haven't heard even my local ******** complaining about _legal _immigrants.


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## MyBoyPuck

Yes, this discussion does pertain to "illegal" immigrants. It does bother me that even our government is trying to work that word out of this whole mess, like all immigration is equal. Immigrants from 100 years or so ago used to come into this country through proper channels, learn english, and become americans while still cherishing their roots from their original country. Since the 70's or so, immigration has been replaced by illegal aliens sneaking into a country by the thousands while our government turns a blind eye. Very few learn to speak english, they want to live in America but do want not be americans. I forget who said they do not qualify for assistance, but that is soooo incorrect. They are called anchor children. Go to an ER and ask any doctor. They show up by the dozens every day for "free" health care. Every baby born to an illegal can get state and federal aide and you and I are paying for every one of them. Where do you think all these children of illegals went to school that are part of this new deal?? Do you think they were all home schooled? No, they were in our public education system. I'm sorry but this is complete BS, all of it. If someone sneaks into my country, they can sneak right back out. I didn't tell them to come here and breed, and I sure as hell don't want to foot the bill. 

I can't even go shopping at my local mall anymore without wanting to cry by the time I leave because I almost never hear anyone speaking english. It makes me sick and I miss my country. We used to all be americans. Now it's latino rights, religious rights, gay rights, etc. Everybody wants to be recognized apart from the country as a whole. If you come to america, it should be for the purpose of becoming an american. 

Off my soapbox now.


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## Bobby Lee

Im gonna take some heat from that. Sorry already ok. but it is funny right?


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## Bobby Lee

I know what is right and wrong. Im fed up with holding back, this is a thread I can speak in. Lets build a new world, for people and not for profit, please.


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## Allison Finch

SHINE LIMITED said:


> My people came thru ellis island quarantine and all.its


Well, my people came through BEFORE there was any Ellis Island (1700's) and I still think we were immigrants coming where we were not welcome.




> amazing how a lot of people(not here on forum) want to make it an ethnic issue when its a legal one.


This is geared at the CHILDREN of the ones who made the decision to break the law. They must be in the act of educating themselves or serving in the military. It's not like they are offering this exclusion to welfare criminals.



> I hate this pandering to select groups for votes especially in his position.taxpayers have no say and we pay for it all
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Pandering? Sounds like a Fox News soundbite. He is doing what was promised. Damned if he does.....damned if he doesn't.


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## dbarabians

My boy Puck Mexicans have been entering this country to work for decades.
In fact it was a common practice for Mexican women on the border to cross and bear their children so they could be US citizens.
Kitten Val when Alabama passed the law about Illegal workers last year the farmers lost millions because no one would work for the wages at that kind of a job.
Most undocumented workers work for the same minimum wage they were hired at until they are fired get another job or go back home.
Undocumented workers DO NOT get benefits.
their children that are born here are American citizens and are entitled to the same programs used for any underpriviledged child.
Myboypuck the english speaking, white, christian, straight, country that you long for never really excisted.
Multicutluralism is here to stay and is a reflection of the way things have always been. Now everyone has to deal with it like it or not. Shalom


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## MyBoyPuck

dbarabians said:


> Myboypuck the english speaking, white, christian, straight, country that you long for never really excisted.


Hmmmm, guess those first 23 years of my life were in my imagination....don't recall having to order a Subway sandwich in part spanish when I was growing up. 

I totally get that farmers need cheap labor, but as always our goverment will screw that up too. I'm all for organized work permits. Go to farmers> get info on how many laborers they will need for a growing season> give work permits to that many illegals> illegals work for cheap wage which is still a ton of money to them> work done they go home and live like kings on the off season> following year do it again. Nice organized policy, win-win for both sides. But it won't happen that way. Government will play party line crap, all will stay or all will go. They will insist on paying the migrants minimum wage for picking a tomato crop which of course farmers cannot possibly afford. Instead of come to a compromise, the policians will sit on their hands and do squat yet again. This country is seriously starting to break down.


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## dbarabians

Myboyouck the idea about giving visas for workers is great. I also agree that both major parties are going to pander to their base to ensure votes.
I do not think either party is serious about creating any sensible immigration policy.
Until employers are forced to hire people for a decent wage and provide them with benefits they will contuinue to hire undocumented workers,
Workers who do not matter to the general public and the companies profit margin. Shalom


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## Missy May

Illegals don't work for as cheap as would like you to believe. They get free of charge to them and courtesy of the taxpayer: medical, dental, food (at very minimum, breakfast and lunch for their children in school...if not food stamps), college tuition, meds, vaccinations, etc., etc.,.

If the SAME deals were open to US citizens for all the jobs that "only illegals will do"....their would be a mass migration in this country...of citizens TO those jobs!!! But, the same "benefits" are not afforded citizens.

I find it intolerant and biggoted to paint Americans as unwilling to work....does that include just one skin color or another...or is it all of them???


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## Missy May

dbarabians said:


> My boy Puck Mexicans have been entering this country to work for decades.
> In fact it was a common practice for Mexican women on the border to cross and bear their children so they could be US citizens.
> Kitten Val when Alabama passed the law about Illegal workers last year the farmers lost millions because no one would work for the wages at that kind of a job.
> Most undocumented workers work for the same minimum wage they were hired at until they are fired get another job or go back home.
> Undocumented workers DO NOT get benefits.
> their children that are born here are American citizens and are entitled to the same programs used for any underpriviledged child.
> Myboypuck the english speaking, white, christian, straight, country that you long for never really excisted.
> Multicutluralism is here to stay and is a reflection of the way things have always been. Now everyone has to deal with it like it or not. Shalom


Excuse me for butting in, however, simply because the county you assumed MBpuck longs for never existed does not, in ANY way mean that laws were never enforced. 


Decades maybe...but I personally knew people that use to ride boarder patrol on horseback. It wasn't one or two, they had them in mass. Today, they would get shot at in the same stretches...no one would hire on w/o some _serious_ combat pay. The difference is that laws were enforced inside the borders and _illegal_ alliens were not treated as more equal than citizens. 

Also, on your belief they are "zero cost" to the taxpayer...try this...go to the local court house and note interpreters - they are not working for free, neither is the assigned lawyer. Also, hospitals cannot turn them down...and perhaps you have never visited a single civilian hospital - but they are there, free of charge to THEM, not to the taxpayer. 

Decades ago...hospitals were not forced to take them and ensure their every need was met. This insanity adds up to BIG $$$ for the taxpayer and their children, and thier children's children...it is NOT free! This ALONE has had a huge adverse impact on every citizen's freedom.


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> when Alabama passed the law about Illegal workers last year the farmers lost millions because no one would work for the wages at that kind of a job.


I have NO problem what so ever with the decision to give special work visas for such seasonal employees. If the business follows all rules as well as those who get them (including documenting all comers). Again, it's very different from illegal aliens who broke the law and hiring them means encouraging and supporting breaking the law. We may like the law or think it's wrong, but breaking it IS a violation at the moment, and should be treated as one, not praised with the amnesty or something of that matter.


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## tinyliny

MyBoyPuck said:


> Yes, this discussion does pertain to "illegal" immigrants. It does bother me that even our government is trying to work that word out of this whole mess, like all immigration is equal*. Immigrants from 100 years or so ago used to come into this country through proper channels, learn english, and become americans while still cherishing their roots from their original country.* Since the 70's or so, immigration has been replaced by illegal aliens sneaking into a country by the thousands while our government turns a blind eye. Very few learn to speak english, they want to live in America but do want not be americans. I forget who said they do not qualify for assistance, but that is soooo incorrect. They are called anchor children. Go to an ER and ask any doctor. They show up by the dozens every day for "free" health care. Every baby born to an illegal can get state and federal aide and you and I are paying for every one of them. Where do you think all these children of illegals went to school that are part of this new deal?? Do you think they were all home schooled? No, they were in our public education system. I'm sorry but this is complete BS, all of it. If someone sneaks into my country, they can sneak right back out. I didn't tell them to come here and breed, and I sure as hell don't want to foot the bill.
> 
> I can't even go shopping at my local mall anymore without wanting to cry by the time I leave because I almost never hear anyone speaking english. It makes me sick and I miss my country. We used to all be americans. Now it's latino rights, religious rights, gay rights, etc. Everybody wants to be recognized apart from the country as a whole. If you come to america, it should be for the purpose of becoming an american.
> 
> Off my soapbox now.


If the United States had been geographically located next to Ireland, we would be inundated by Irish. Same for other European nations. It's just Mexico and more southern latin american countries that are within "walking" distance. If they werent, then those peoples would be much more forced to go through legal channels.



I will agree with the sentiment expressed with how immigrants come here and dont' really BECOME Americans. Where I live there are tons of foreigners. Tons. Mostly Asian, but many Russian and Hispanic. They live in enclaves, work, shop, and play amounst themselves and many go their entire life never trying to learn English. That bothers me.
It bothers me the way we are allowing English to become just one of the choices, rather than THE NATIONAL LANGUAGE.

I just grind my teeth when the telephone says, "para Espanol oprima el dos" on the automated phone calls. But, Hispanics will be the single largest ethnic group in about 30 years, isnt' it? So, better get used to it.


And, by the way, I speak Spanish pretty well and have lived in Mexico. I adore Mexican culture . 

Talk about a soap box! Sheesh. sorry . . . . .


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## dbarabians

Missy May I did not mean all americans.
There are plenty of people that are capable of working but rely on the government to provide them with food shelter and health care.
Not all that are on assistance but some.
Undocumented workers can only access healthcare at the emergency room.
They do not get food, shelter or dental care at the expense of the federal government. 
To do so you would have to register for the benefits. If they do they will be deported. The children that are born here are eligible for MEDICAID and other programs like all US citizens are.
I also know that I would not work for an hourly wage or do manual labor.
I have never had to and do not intend to start at my age Yet, becuase of the low cost of hiring undocumented workers companies keep their prices low. You and I both enjoy that benefit undocumented workers provide us. Shalom


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> They do not get food, shelter or dental care at the expense of the federal government.


Actually if you (general you) lose the job and go on unemployment you don't get food, dental care or medical care either. And if you have precondition you almost have no chance to pay for the medical care. Just saying... 

And I'd also suggest to read some other facts like this one for example Illegal Aliens Get Billions in Tax Refunds | FrontPage Magazine (of course I'm NOT saying americans don't scam the system - they do, but at least they can be tracked)


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## dbarabians

Kitten Val I know plenty of undocumented workers.
I know most of them through their american children that I and others help with legal and other problems.
None of them have ever filed a tax return.
They are solicited to all the time and we advise them that if they do they will risk deportation.
That link to the article is to a right wing pundit once I saw the name I refused to read the article. sorry
I am certain that immigrants are persuaded to file . 
It is funny how the immigrants are the ones to be prosecuted and not their employers. Shalom


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## attackships

kitten_Val said:


> We may like the law or think it's wrong, but breaking it IS a violation at the moment, and should be treated as one, not praised with the amnesty or something of that matter.


""Praised""" with amnesty? its nothing but a confession over the fact that we have been long overdue for comprehensive immigration reform and that we still do nothing but sit on our hands!

not only do i think mass deportation is hardly feasible, it makes me sick to think that people think any good will come from deporting some young people who have never called mexico home, some of which do not even speak the language!

I do not call americans "lazy" but they do expect a higher quality job which is understandable because it is needed to maintain our lifestyles. However, migrants take these jobs because no matter how ****ty they are, they are still making 3x what they would in mexico. 

the USA has absolutely no problem exploiting migrant workers. we brought them in from mexico by the busload from 1942 - 1964 as part of the Bracero Program specifically to do so. if you want to remove illegal immigrants from these agriculture jobs, make these farmers hire americans for more money, you are going to be costing the average american 10x more to buy produce. 

you can pick and choose any stat you want on how much illegal immigration costs america, but you have to weigh that with the benefits, and the risk that mass deportation would pose to the economy. 

i dont care about obama, i care about how these law abiding young people, many of which who pay their way through american universities, can offer us as a nation and im not interested in just shipping them off. 

this issue is way too personal for comfort. im just chompin at the bit lol

by the way kitten_val, that article you posted speaks to me about the incompetence of our government, not illegal immigrants.


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## tinyliny

well said!


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## Missy May

dbarabians said:


> Missy May I did not mean all americans.
> *There are plenty of people that are capable of working but rely on the government to provide them with food shelter and health care.*
> Not all that are on assistance but some.
> Undocumented workers can only access healthcare at the emergency room.
> They do not get food, shelter or dental care at the expense of the federal government.
> To do so you would have to register for the benefits. If they do they will be deported. The children that are born here are eligible for MEDICAID and other programs like all US citizens are.
> I also know that I would not work for an hourly wage or do manual labor.
> I have never had to and do not intend to start at my age Yet, *becuase of the low cost of hiring undocumented workers companies keep their prices low.* You and I both enjoy that benefit undocumented workers provide us. Shalom


Most migrant workers prior to the onslaught of welfare were, in fact, NOT illegal aliens. Prices were kept low - in fact, lower than they are today, AND federal taxes were kept low. Most large corporate farms (where the bulk of our food comes from) utilize expensive heavy equipment. I have the choice to purchase products, make or grow my own, etc.,. I do not have the CHOICE to pay federal taxes or not. If you do not believe federal taxes are increased by illegals drain on medical (yes, I am well aware that they can only go to the ER - _so are they_), dental (the familia clinics in this state are federal GRANT funded and do NOT ask for anything other than address and income, and do NOT hire anyone that is not bilingual...so I am guessing they see a few illegals), prison, jail, incarceration, lawyers, interpreters, education, etc., you are not looking at the facts - you are operating on your personal ideology. In order for this country to remain "free"...people need to respect freedom, not what freedoms they think it is best for OTHERS to give up. In California and this state an illegal can get a free college education, but citizens from out of state....you guessed it, pay out of state tuition. But, then, since illegals aren't a citizen, they can be treated "more equal", and the right to "equal protection" doesn't apply. How sweet. No expense to any US citizen, ya think?

You want OUR government to bend over backwards for these people...why don't you want all 14 MILLION plus of them to ask for change in their OWN governments system in their OWN home countries - many of which are far richer than the US?

BTW, Oklahoma, a soveriegn state, made it illegal to hire an illegal allien, and the Obama admin wanted and had TAXPAYER dollars move to sue that state. No drain? No cost? As far as deportation goes...what? That in itself is a HUGE cost and rarely ever done. AZ can't afford to protect the US border and deport all of the illegals in that state, a state IN the US (i.e., they should get all the federal assistance they need to protect a US border)....Obama wants that state to just shut-up. Another law suit, another cost, but no assistance.

And, one of my dear friends is from a foriegn country. Her husband works in the US for that country's government. She is NOT ALLOWED to work. They are intelligent, well educated people and have looked into every possible avenue - the answer is NO. It seems "legal" is the worst class to be in, no "poor legalsl" cheering section?


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## SHINE LIMITED

Missy may you are by far the most sensible, eloquent participant in this discussion.no propoganda videos, sarcasm or elitism lectures. Just the straight facts.you have left everyone in the dust with this debate. Thank you!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians

Undocumented workers pay taxes that are withheld from their checks and on everything they purchase.
This more than offsets any cost the governments bears. They pay with cash too and have helped keep our econonmy recovering by purchasing lots of consumer goods.
The free clinics here get no grants that I know of but I will look into getting a few friends together to see if we can.
Most of the ones that I know that operate around here the DRs donate their time. Thanks for the idea.
Not paying out of state tutition does not equate to a free education.
Missy May Mexico is experiencing a brutal drug war that has claimed 50,000 lives.
If the government can't control the Cartels even with that loss of life do you think that they are concerned with equality at the polls?
I have visited the interior of Mexico several times in my life.
Lives for those at the bottom of the ladder have not changed much in the last 70 years. 
That , the drug war, and US employers that exploit cheap labour are the reasons people flee to this country.
If anyone thinks that you can deport them all you are not thinking rationally.
If you cannot see how immigrants impact this country in a positive way you have allowed your negative feelings on this subject to cloud your reasoning. Shalom


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## Missy May

dbarabians said:


> Undocumented workers pay taxes that are withheld from their checks and on everything they purchase.
> This more than offsets any cost the governments bears. They pay with cash too and have helped keep our econonmy recovering by purchasing lots of consumer goods.
> The free clinics here get no grants that I know of but I will look into getting a few friends together to see if we can.
> Most of the ones that I know that operate around here the DRs donate their time. Thanks for the idea.
> Not paying out of state tutition does not equate to a free education.
> Missy May Mexico is experiencing a brutal drug war that has claimed 50,000 lives.
> If the government can't control the Cartels even with that loss of life do you think that they are concerned with equality at the polls?
> I have visited the interior of Mexico several times in my life.
> Lives for those at the bottom of the ladder have not changed much in the last 70 years.
> That , the drug war, and US employers that exploit cheap labour are the reasons people flee to this country.
> If anyone thinks that you can deport them all you are not thinking rationally.
> If you cannot see how immigrants impact this country in a positive way you have allowed your negative feelings on this subject to cloud your reasoning. Shalom


If you cannot see the costs of ILLEGAL aliens, you have allowed your personal feelings to blind your mathmatic skills, or you don't have any. I can EASILY see the positive impact of those that come here LEGALLY. You seem to confuse the positive impacts that _you_ personally believe have been realized by ILLEGAL aliens as proof they present no cost or negative impact. 

Have ya been to Mexico _lately_? Next trip, try not to focus on the poorest of the poor...which one can easily do in the US of A, too. Mexico HAS changed a LOT in the past decades, and there is a lot of positive change w respect to jobs. Mexico is a VERY rich country w near endless resources. You seem to want to make their government's short comings the responsibility of all US citizens, even though the US is a far poorer nation. 

It seems that you believe that illegal aliens are ALL near angelic people. Why wouldn't that be true of all US citizens or legal immigrants? We could save a bundle w this reasoning on prison costs...wala, no history -all prisoners could be released and get to "come on in", TOO! 

I am assuming you practice what you preach here...never lock your door, don't know or care where the metes and bounds of your property are, leverage your property to pay for the care of people that walk into your house, etc.,. Of course, you wouldn't need to provide for them....when the US taxpayer is forced to.


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## Missy May

Thanks again, Shine!


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## FlyGap

The PROBLEM with this debate is that some people do not ride the fence and are not taking THE ENTIRE situation into consideration.

To say that illegal immigrants are not a drain is preposterous!
I can ALSO give dozens of accounts of how I have been directly negatively impacted. I'll spare you pages of reading, which obviously it would not matter whatever I said. A few...
I put myself through school and had just graduated, had an excellent job, then the economy started getting rough and lost it. Weeks later I found out I was expecting. Lost my insurance with my job, not married yet (engaged), yadda. So I took advantage of Medicare (WHICH I HAD BEEN PAYING FOR SINCE I WAS 13!) and signed up to have a "free baby". Went in to the office and I was 1 of at least 6 women that was not hispanic, did not have at least three children running around my feet, and I was the only one that could speak English. They WERE NOT legal immigrants, they were illegals, non taxpayers, taking full advantage of the system. Paint me as insensitive if you'd like, of course I want the best for their child as for mine, BUT they are costing us money.
I have been in 2 car accidents involving illegals. The first one was in a parking lot. A van backed into me crushing my bumper. I jumped out, I speak a little spanish, and asked for them to stop and wait and for their names. They acted like I was stupid, LAUGHED at me and drove off. The police came and I told them what happened and they LAUGHED at me and told me there was NOTHING I could do about it. My insurance had to pick up THAT BILL! 
I was on vacation with a friend shopping when we were rear ended by a group of boys. Those FANTASTIC kids feigned ignorance, and refused to speak English. I am as sweet as the day is long and tried to be patient. The boys took off.
We again waited for the police, to get the same remark. I had their "tags" which were not valid and a description of their car, again, nothing I could do about it.
I'm not saying those boys were illegals, but they feigned ignorance and took advantage of the fact that there ARE and that they are untraceable.

I want the best for everyone. There has to be something we can do, BUT WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE LAWS. There is a better way, congress needs to pass a law, Oblamea doesn't get to come up with a campaign idea and decide not to prosecute a certain group of people. ADMIT IT PEOPLE!
I agree that those that serve in the military, those that are in college, or under the age of 18 get a pathway to citizenship (THROUGH SERVICE). All the rest need to be sent back because THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW. I do NOT have a problem with migrant workers with documentation, I DO have a strong problem with companies who hire illegals, GET THEM TOO. 

I also strongly believe that the country of Mexico IS the problem and it is their responsibility NOT OURS to solve. TAX THE CRAP out of them until our borders are safer. But the President is not addressing ANY of these issues, HE IS HUNTING for VOTES. ADMIT IT. Quit being so idealistic and ADMIT THE FACTS.


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## dbarabians

Yes Missy May there are rich people in Mexico but they are the exception not the rule.
No I do not see how 14 million undocumented workers are all taking advantage of our free medical care, free college education, or any thing else the government provides . Everyone of them would have to be using the system. Focusing on some and ignoring the productive and independent ones negates your argument.
I do practice what I preach I can assure you of that.
As I posted before after the policies of this country and others refused to save 100's of thousands of people before WW2 because of their religion and race.
Most jews that I know and the Catholic Church as well support a rational path to citizenship.
My father spent thousands of dollars to attain citizenship for Ricardo and his wife. If their status was still the same I would be spending thousands todo the same. I can assure you of that.
I try and see the humanity in everyone I deal with and address any injustice that I perceive exist.
Those 14 million people are not going to leave.
They are a part of our country. If we refuse them access to our soceity we may experience the riots that took place in France recently.
That is the result of what happens when a country exploits the poverty of another and takes advantage of cheap labour its citizens provide.
I have lived in Europe and immigrants from undeveloped countries were allowed if not encouraged to come in and work cheaply.
It was only after years of denying them basic human rights that the problem exploded.
We can avoid this in the US if we implement a rational workers program and path to citizenship. Shalom


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## FlyGap

Agree somewhat DB. We should implement a RATIONAL path to Citizenship.
A rational, legal one. Laws that are passed through congress, signed by the president. NOT allow the president to say, wellllll we are just not going to go after "those" people. Now vote for me. It's actually insulting. 

OBAMA is the one preying on these people.


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## dbarabians

Flygap, I understand your frustration.
Our president may be hunting for votes but Romney has refused to say that he would repeal the Presidents excecutive order.
Neither party is willing to risk alienating the Hispanic vote or big business.
I was at the region 9 Arabian Horse show in Ft Worth this weekend.
Most large stables had hispanic help and I saw many of them conversing in spainish.
As hispanics become the majority in Texas this issue will become more volatile for both parties as they pander for votes.
Since Texas is the second most popualted state after California and both have large hispanic populations the rest of the country will follow their lead. Shalom


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## Lockwood

*reaches for more popcorn*


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## Missy May

No, a "few rich people" do not make a COUNTRY rich. Just as a note, the richest man on the planet is...a Mexican. I am talking about the _country_ of Mexico - it is far richer than the US. A county's wealth is not measured by the few rich people it has, btw. MOST Mexican politicians speak a little english, why don't you tell them AND their citizens how they should run THEIR country for the good of THEIR citizens?

I don't see Israel removing any and all border patrols, check points, and document requirement. Perhaps you should try asking them to practice your brand of humanity. _Maybe_ if you explained to them, nicely, that if people come in illegally, they are magically changed to angels, the likes of which rival those in heaven.

Focusing on a near "religious" belief that all illegals are angelic b/c they are criminals negates any argument. They aren't piling into N. Korea...where there is NO democratic republic, no equality, or equally enforced processes...its just what some_one_ feels is best for everyone on any given day. Its puzzling why they aren't going _there_. And, so long as people feel they know better how to spend other citizens money, and take there property to apply to making illegals "more equal", there won't be one (democratic republic) in this country - for long.


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## FlyGap

What is Texas doing about their illegals?
I know here in Arkansas they are throwing up their hands when it comes to Illegals committing minor crimes. You can not find them. There is a STRONG force having to battle the "Mexican" mafia in NWA. That only fuels the fire though. Start cracking down on them and they come at you 10 fold.

I grew up in an area where they infiltrated our community. We needed people to pluck chickens, most of my family started their careers in those factories. Those factories payed a decent wage back then... Then the infulx of illegals and BAM, lower wages. It's the governments fault, they are to blame. Secure the border reducing the illegal workforce, fine/take the businesses and PEOPLE that hire them and then the US won't look so good will it? 
But no, the President that you guys support is doing these poor poor people a disservice. HE is AGAIN dividing the country and causing FURTHER animosity. Slapping his decree down in spite of the law, for a few votes. NOT for the sake of the people, all around.


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## kitten_Val

attackships said:


> hat article you posted speaks to me about the incompetence of our government, not illegal immigrants.


No arguing from me because I agree that it IS because the system fails. However the fail was used by illegals. 

I still think though that allowing illegals to stay and eventually get a residency (while so many people obey the law and either keep the status while in process or wait outside the country for their number) is praising the crime (per current law) - whether you like or not. And BTW, as I said in some earlier posts I was only referring to those who came illegally or with the intention to stay illegal lying to the officer at the port of entry. Other situations should be considered differently IMHO. 

After a quick googling (as I don't really want to go to gov sites):

ENTRY WITHOUT INSPECTION IS A CRIME: In fact, pursuant to 8 U.S.C. 1325, crossing the border illegally is a crime–a misdemeanor for the first offense and a felony for the second and subsequent offenses


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> Most large stables had hispanic help and I saw many of them conversing in spainish.


dba, there is nothing wrong with working hispanics. The guy who helps my hay guy for years IS from Mexico, legally here, has 3 kids, and a very nice, hard working person (who also took his time to learn english, even though he's not fluent). To me it's not about being a hispanic, italian, chinese, you name it, it's about coming/being here legally or not.

The immigration reform is definitely needed, because the situation won't be changing. But the easiest way would be not to deport (which will cost lots of money indeed), but instead go hard after those hiring illegals and renting to illegals. If the business wants to use cheaper labor they have to file special "working visas" to bring people from Latin America, Europe, etc. _legally_. In fact the program "work and travel" is one of those programs that allow that.


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## tinyliny

Wastn't there a large amnesty grant made during the first Bush term? Gave total amnesty to millions of illegals?


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## kitten_Val

tinyliny said:


> Wastn't there a large amnesty grant made during the first Bush term? Gave total amnesty to millions of illegals?


I thought it was Clinton, not Bush. Could be wrong though.


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## tinyliny

I am not sure either.


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## dbarabians

It was Ronald Reagan that had the good sense to give amnesty to those hardworking people that had lived here for years.
Missy May Israel is a JEWISH state.
Unless you are Jewish you cannot become a citizen if you are not already one. I fully support this policy. Our history requires that we place our trust in no other state or religion but opur own.
As a Jewish state Israel has a different reason to restict its immigration policies.
Mexico IS NOT RICHER than the US. Where did you get that nonsense?
The US is the richest country in the world with an economy of at least 16 Trillion dollars.
Kttien Val there is no problem here with any body working my post was about spainish speaking workers that did not understand english.
Sorry I did not make that clear.
What is Texas doing about its undocumented workers?
They are pretty much left alone and ignored until they commit a major crime.
The economy of this State would collapse if they were rounded up and deported.
If you get near the border the cuylture and the people are the same as thoise in Mexico.
We in Texas understand that trying to close our borders with Mexico would cost Billions and still not solve the issue. Shalom


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## PaintHorseMares

dbarabians said:


> What is Texas doing about its undocumented workers?
> They are pretty much left alone and ignored until they commit a major crime.


Our son is a policeman in Texas and they are so understaffed that they don't bring any one in, alien or not, unless they have felony warrants. They just don't have the manpower for doing any more than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May

dbarabians said:


> It was Ronald Reagan that had the good sense to give amnesty to those hardworking people that had lived here for years.
> Missy May Israel is a JEWISH state.
> Unless you are Jewish you cannot become a citizen if you are not already one. I fully support this policy. Our history requires that we place our trust in no other state or religion but opur own.
> As a Jewish state Israel has a different reason to restict its immigration policies.
> *Mexico IS NOT RICHER than the US. Where did you get that nonsense?*
> The US is the richest country in the world with an economy of at least 16 Trillion dollars.
> Kttien Val there is no problem here with any body working my post was about spainish speaking workers that did not understand english.
> Sorry I did not make that clear.
> What is Texas doing about its undocumented workers?
> They are pretty much left alone and ignored until they commit a major crime.
> The economy of this State would collapse if they were rounded up and deported.
> If you get near the border the cuylture and the people are the same as thoise in Mexico.
> We in Texas understand that trying to close our borders with Mexico would cost Billions and still not solve the issue. Shalom


Not richer? Really? WHAT??? Their GDP ranks 14th in the WORLD, and their GDP taken PER CAPITA , it is FAR far higher than that of the US, they have virtually no foriegn debt. I don't know if you realize the US carries a massive national dept...far FAR above Mexico's few tens of millions....whose total debt is under 800 million! Where do I get this nonsense? Where do YOU get yours???

Mexico ALSO has tons, and tons of OIL, TIMBER, GOLD, and SILVER...not to mention MILES of beach front which CAN and IS used for tourism...but I'm sure the fact that it isn't used to its full potential is the fault of the US. It also now is the proud host of Hershey's - to name one of a long list of US companies.

The idea that Israel is special and should have borders b/c its citizen's culture and religion and lives would be threatened if there were not - is just saying its LEGAL inhabitants are "more equal" than those in the US, and those wishing to enter it illegally are "lower forms of life" than those illegals entering the US. Gee, sounds incredibley judgemental and biggoted to me. Clearly you think the culture, government, and people of the US are of no value. 

The quickly _growing _middle class and wealthy in Mexico are indirectly subsidized by the US taxpayer....THEY don't have to fund 14 million people's education, medical, interpreters, etc.,. Of course they think its great that their government encourages them (the uneducated unskilled) to go to the US, along with criminals on the run.

The US has a history. It isn't the same as Israel's, so try not to confuse the two. People faught and died and worked their entire lives for the freedoms we enjoy. Mexico has a somewhat similar history upto and including independence, and there the similarities end...the CITIZENS of both countries determined their geo-political directions after their respective independence. Mexicans prefer to cross the border and change _this _country as opposed to CHANGE their OWN. Since you have already established that you don't think the citizens, culture, and political stucture of the US are of any value and illegal immigrants from Mexico are, there isn't much left to say other than - I completely disagree.


----------



## natisha

Ink said:


> There-in lies the problem with a third-party candidate. People already have it in their heads that they are throwing their vote away. But if everyone were to vote for the third party candidate it wouldn't be throwing our vote away at all. LoL I'm in TN. Obama doesn't have snowball's chance in you know where of taking the state and I refuse to vote for Romney. So in a sense I don't have anything to lose lol.


That makes sense but the reality is that most people won't vote the third party & most of those who will wouldn't vote Democrat if there were only 2 choices. So a third party vote at this stage of the game is essentially a vote for Obama. He knows this too, that's why you don't hear him criticising the third party candidate. He wants some folks to vote third party as it will help him.
Now if a third party was soaring ahead of the others it would make sense to try for a third party win.


----------



## Faceman

db, I am a bit surprised by your economic naivity and positions on this particular issue.

The US was among the richer nations prior to Obama, but in the last 3 years we have become a nation extremely deep in debt. While we are still in better financial position than many of the European nations whose experiment in socialism has failed miserably, we are nowhere close to being the richest nation in the world.

I also find it rather ironic considering some of your past conversastions, that you rationalize Israel being a Jewish state. I sincerely doubt you would be without criticism and outcry if the US became a Christian state and denied citizenship to non-Christians. It seems you have a "do as I say, not as I do" philosophy.

The fact that, with the exception of my Indian kin, we all are immigrants to this country, is not relevant to the illegal immigration issue - or immigration in general for that matter. Any such reference displays a lack of understanding of even the most basic economics. If you remember Economics 101, it takes 3 things for an industrialized nation to form and sustain itself...land, labor, and capital. Up until the 50's or so our country had a need for labor, thus we had always had a relatively liberal immigration policy. However with the outsourcing of manufacturing to other countries and with agricultural mechanization, we do not have the same need tdo import labor as we used to have. Sadly, we have continued our relatively liberal immigration policy, but with the exception of certain labor niches, we do not need a large influx of new immigrants in this country. On the contrary, we should be highly restrictive in our immigration policy today - we do not need all these new immigrants. We have a job shortage - not a people shortage...that should be a real duh to anyone that doesn't have their head buried in the sand.

You seem to have an attitude that one of the basic human rights of man is to immigrate to the US. Sorry pal, but that is not true, and should not be true.

Your reference to these people as "undocumented workers" quite frankly disturbs me. Does a rapist have "undocumented sex" with his victims? Does a bank robber make an "undocumented withdrawal"? Illegal immigrants are just that - illegal. They have invaded our nation, and we don't seem to have the gonads to do anything about it for fear of stepping on someones toes, hurting someone's feelings, or losing someone's vote. Thank God we don't take the same position with all criminals. I'm afraid I take a harder line on illegal immigrants...they are foreign invaders, and they are criminals, and they should be treated as such. They are responsible for their own children and their children should follow them back to whatever country they came from. A child born on American soil is a different issue, as they are American citizens. But a child born elsewhere and here illegally should be deported together with his/her parents.

There is, after all, a legal path to immigration. Whether that path is quick or easy is, again, not relevant. It is, or at least should not be, our purpose to have an open border. The most basic of logic should tell even the most naive person that if we permit unlimited immigration for all those who would benefit from living here, we would be faced with absolute chaos, and quickly would lose what little identity we have left...


----------



## Faceman

natisha said:


> That makes sense but the reality is that most people won't vote the third party & most of those who will wouldn't vote Democrat if there were only 2 choices. So a third party vote at this stage of the game is essentially a vote for Obama. He knows this too, that's why you don't hear him criticising the third party candidate. He wants some folks to vote third party as it will help him.
> Now if a third party was soaring ahead of the others it would make sense to try for a third party win.


Yes and no. While it is true that in a state where the election were extremly close, a third party candidate could swing that state, but in the majority of states a third party candidate would have no impact on the outcome. Remember that the national popular vote is meaningless. That's not to say that a third party candidate can't influence the outcome of an election - Ross Perot proved that is possible, as did Teddy Roosevelt at the turn of the 20th century. But there is no viable third party candidate in the US and hasn't been since Perot. While I fully agree with you that voting for a third party candidate today is throwing away one's vote and a waste of gas to get to the polling station, it is not going to affect anything in the upcoming election...


----------



## dbarabians

The state of Israel exist solely as a homeland of the Jewish people.
The only requirement for citizenship for any one born elsewhere is to be jewish. I am happy with that and support the policy by becoming a citizen and serving in the Israeli Army.
We do not deny anyone entry unless they are from a hostile nation.
The fact that you as a christian cannot become a citizen does not bother me in the least. The state of Israel was created solely as a safehaven for All Jews. I will not apologize for that to anyone. Neither should I have to explain it to any intelligent person
If anyone thinks that Mexico has a better economy than the US your dreaming. By allowing the negative feelings about this issue to cloud your judgement does not alter the fact that this country has vast amounts of wealth unlike any other in the world.
We consume over 25% of the worlds resources and control the worlds economy.
With your back ground in finance Faceman you should know that.
I have never said it is a right for anyone to come here.
I said without a rational immigration policy this issue will never be resolved.
14 million people many of whom have children that are US citizens cannot be uprooted without having a negative effect on our economic health and current recovery will be halted.
since mass deportation is not going to happen ,this country needs to rethink its guest worker program, and implement something that can be monitored. a policy that protects our undocumented workers and makes employers accountable.
Yes Faceman I do refer to them as undocumented workers and will continue to do so.
Calling them aliens or criminals only attaches negative labels that are highly colored and emotionally charged. This is an extreme form of overgeneralization and only detracts from the issue.
Glad your back Faceman. Hope all is well. Shalom


----------



## Faceman

To be redundant, you are evidently more naive when it comes to economics than I had assumed...nothing negative or wrong about that as everyone has their areas of expertise...which is also likely why you do not understand or accept the negative economic rammifications of either the illegal immigrant population or the entitlement programs you hold so dear to your heart. How many goods and services we consume is irrelevant to our wealth. Again, thanks to Obama, we have moved way down the list among countries as far as wealth is concerned. If you have difficulty grasping that, think of your own personal situation. If you have $2 million in assets, but owe $1 million in debts, your net worth is $1 million. However if you have that same $2 million in assets and owe $3 million in debts, your net worth is a negative $1 million - meaning you have no wealth at all.

The US does not control the world economy. If you believe that, you are living in the past. That might have been said, although arguably, 30 years ago, but certainly it is obviously not true today. Part of the reason we are having difficulty emergenging from this recession is the drag of the EU economies. Both the EU and China have clearly demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt that no one country is in the driver's seat and controls the economic health of the world. Yes, the US has a large influence - larger than most people realize. However we do not control the world economy.

Once again, I understand your position on Israel, and understand why, or at least as well as a gentile can understand, but yours is a hypocritical position nonetheless. It is also discriminatory, as it segregates entire countries rather than individuals who are actually enemies. Now understand, I am just defining your position...that doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with it. To be quite frank, while I don't believe in religious states as that is an un-American philosophy, I would actually prefer to see our immigration policy more like Israel's - which is what I have been debating here. However in your case, you support a strict immigration policy in Israel, and an open door policy inthe US, which is hypocritical. There is nothing "special' or unique about Israel that dictates they should have a right to a different immigration policy than you support for the rest of the world. The US was also founded by those seeking the freedom to practice the religion of their choice and to have a homeland without persecution they could call their own.

And db, I do not "call" anyone anything, nor do I attach negative labels. I call what you reference to as "undocumented workers" illegal aliens and criminals because that is EXACTLY what they are. If I refer to a 7 foot man as a "tall" man, that is not "calling" him tall or attaching a negative label to him...it merely describes what he is. If anything is a misleading label, it is the term "undocumented worker"...after all, they all don't work, you know. I would hardly call drug running and crime "work", although of course the vast majority of illegal aliens do not fit into those categories.

As to the impact of illegals, while I do not normally use Wiki to illusrate a point, it is difficult to find a reasonably objective economic assessment of the impact of illegals. The Wiki reference covers the primary variables reasonably well, with attention to both the alien costs and contributions. Note that the bottom line is a net cost to us of over $10 billion a year...
Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## dbarabians

Faceman there is a reason I live here instead of Israel.
Even though I am an Israeli citizen I was born and raised here in the US. I have some beliefs that are in conflict with the policies of the Jewish State.
Once again your ability to try and understand the actions and beliefs of others is commendable.
We may not agree all the time but we try and understand each other.
I like that.
The undocumented workers spend billions in hard cash that our economy needs.
As I have posted they have a positive impact also.
The taxes they pay especially social security { which by the way they will never receive} outweigh any negative impact.
I understand how the net worth isdetermined but a country is not an individual and the US can and should raise taxes to the levels other nations pay. That alone could drastically reduce the debt.
Faceman undocumented workers are just that by definition.
As a pyschologist I fully understand how negative words can be used to color and distort a debate. Therefore I avoid them.
We need to change our immigration and guest worker policies.
Isreal has a very competent one.
Before the last Intafada arabs from the West Bank and Gaza crossed the border by the thousands to work, shop, and visit friends.
Just as they did for decades along the border of Texas.
with the escalation of violence Israel halted all but a few thousand from crossing into Israel. This hurt employers and the Israeli economy.
Israel had to look elsewhere for workers.
You can enter Israel and work pay taxes and liveas well. You just cannot become a citizen. Our undocumented workers population is twice the size of Israel itself. 
Tthere is a difference. Shalom


----------



## Allison Finch

To WHOM it may concern. Ignorance can go so many directions.


Faceman says;


> db, I am a bit surprised by your economic naivity and positions on this particular issue.
> 
> The US was among the richer nations prior to Obama, but in the last 3 years we have become a nation extremely deep in debt. While we are still in better financial position than many of the European nations whose experiment in socialism has failed miserably, we are nowhere close to being the richest nation in the world.





> To be redundant, you are evidently more naive when it comes to economics than I had assumed...


WOW *(further comment edited out by Moderator (me) for being seen as insulting)*





*List by the International Monetary Fund (2011)[2]* List by the World Bank (1990–2010)[3]	List by the CIA World Factbook (2000–2011)[1]
Rank	Country/Region	GDP (millions of US$)
World	69,659,626[4]
European Union	17,577,691[4]
1 United States	15,094,025
2 China	7,298,147n2
3 Japan	5,869,471
4 Germany	3,577,031
5 France	2,776,324
6 Brazil	2,492,908
7 United Kingdom	2,417,570
8 Italy	2,198,730
9 Russia	1,850,401
10 Canada	1,736,869
11 India	1,676,143
12 Spain	1,493,513
13 Australia	1,488,221
*14 Mexico	1,154,784*
15 South Korea	1,116,247
16 Indonesia	845,680
17 Netherlands	840,433
18 Turkey	778,089
19 Switzerland	636,059
20 Saudi Arabia	577,595
21 Sweden	538,237
22 Poland	513,821
23 Belgium	513,396
24 Norway	483,650
25 Iran	482,445
26 Taiwan	466,832
27 Argentina	447,644
28 Austria 419,243
29 South Africa	408,074
30 United Arab Emirates	360,136
31 Thailand	345,649
32 Denmark	333,238
33 Colombia	328,422
34 Venezuela	315,841
35 Greece	303,065
36 Malaysia	278,680
37 Finland	266,553
38 Singapore	259,849
39 Chile	248,411
Hong Kong	243,302
40 Israel	242,897
41 Nigeria	238,920
42 Portugal	238,880
43 Egypt	235,719
44 Ireland	217,669
45 Czech Republic	215,265
46 Philippines	213,129
47 Pakistan	210,566
48 Algeria	190,709
49 Romania	189,776
50 Kazakhstan	178,312
51 Kuwait	176,667
52 Qatar	173,847
53 Peru	173,502
54 Ukraine	164,960
55 New Zealand	161,851
56 Hungary	140,303
57 Vietnam	122,722
58 Iraq	115,388
59 Bangladesh	113,032
60 Angola	100,948
61 Morocco	99,241
62 Slovakia	96,089
63 Oman	71,888
64 Ecuador	66,381
65 Sudan + South Sudan	64,750
66 Croatia	63,842
67 Azerbaijan	62,321
68 Sri Lanka	59,095
69 Luxembourg	58,412
70 Dominican Republic	56,700
71 Belarus	55,483
72 Bulgaria	53,514
73 Burma	51,925
74 Slovenia	49,588
75 Guatemala	46,897
76 Uruguay	46,872
77 Tunisia	46,360
78 Uzbekistan	45,353
79 Serbia	45,064
80 Lithuania	42,718
81 Costa Rica	40,947
82 Lebanon	39,039
83 Ghana	37,158
84 Libya	36,874
85 Kenya	34,796
86 Yemen	33,675
87 Ethiopia	31,256
88 Panama	30,569
89 Jordan	29,233
90 Latvia	28,252
91 Bahrain	26,108
92 Cameroon	25,759
93 Turkmenistan	25,742
94 Cyprus	24,949
95 Bolivia	24,604
96 Côte d'Ivoire	24,096
97 Tanzania	23,333
98 El Salvador	22,761
99 Trinidad and Tobago	22,707
100 Estonia	22,225
101 Paraguay	21,236
102 Equatorial Guinea	19,805
103 Zambia	19,206
104 Nepal	18,580
105 Afghanistan	18,181
106 Bosnia and Herzegovina	17,965
107 Botswana	17,570
108 Honduras	17,381
109 Uganda	16,810
110 Gabon	16,176
111 Congo, Democratic Republic of the	15,668
112 Brunei	15,533
113 Jamaica	14,807
114 Congo, Republic of the	14,769
115 Senegal	14,461
116 Georgia	14,347
117 Iceland	14,048
118 Cambodia	12,861
119 Albania	12,847
120 Mozambique	12,827
121 Papua New Guinea	12,655
122 Namibia	12,461
123 Mauritius	11,313
124 Mali	10,600
125 Macedonia, Republic of	10,327
126 Armenia	10,106
127 Madagascar	10,025
128 Burkina Faso	9,981
129 Chad	9,344
130 Zimbabwe	9,323
131 Malta	8,896
132 Mongolia	8,506
133 Bahamas, The	8,074
134 Laos	7,891
135 Haiti	7,388
136 Benin	7,306
137 Nicaragua	7,297
138 Moldova	7,003
139 Tajikistan	6,523
140 Kosovo	6,452
141 Rwanda	6,179
142 Niger	6,022
143 Kyrgyzstan	5,920
144 Malawi	5,673
145 Guinea	5,212
146 Montenegro	4,536
147 Barbados	4,478
148 Timor-Leste	4,315
149 Mauritania	4,200
150 Swaziland	3,947
151 Suriname	3,790
152 Togo	3,611
153 Fiji	3,546
154 Eritrea	2,609
155 Guyana	2,480
156 Lesotho	2,453
157 Burundi	2,356
158 Sierra Leone	2,196
159 Central African Republic	2,165
160 Maldives	1,944
161 Cape Verde	1,903
162 Bhutan	1,488
163 Belize	1,474
164 Djibouti	1,239
165 Saint Lucia	1,239
166 Antigua and Barbuda	1,187
167 Liberia	1,154
168 Seychelles	1,014
169 Gambia, The	977
170 Guinea-Bissau	969
171 Solomon Islands	840
172 Grenada	822
173 Vanuatu	743
174 Saint Kitts and Nevis	715
175 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines	695
176 Samoa	630
177 Comoros	614
178 Dominica	489
179 Tonga	439
180 São Tomé and Príncipe	248
181 Kiribati	167
182 Tuvalu	35
Syria n/a


*Rank	Country/Region	GDP (millions of US$)* Year
World	63,123,888	2010
European Union	16,222,855	2010
1 United States	14,586,736	2010
2 China	5,926,612n2	2010
3 Japan	5,458,837	2010
4 Germany	3,280,530	2010
5 France	2,560,002n4	2010
6 United Kingdom	2,261,713	2010
7 Brazil	2,087,890	2010
8 Italy	2,060,965	2010
Arab League	1,894,679	2010
9 India	1,727,111	2010
10 Canada	1,577,040	2010
11 Russia	1,479,819	2010
12 Spain	1,407,405	2010
13 Australia	1,131,623	2010
*14 Mexico	1,035,871	2010*
15 South Korea	1,014,483	2010
16 Netherlands	779,356	2010
17 Turkey	734,364	2010
18 Indonesia	706,558	2010
19 Switzerland	527,920	2010
20 Poland	469,440	2010
21 Belgium	469,374	2010
22 Sweden	458,973	2010
23 Saudi Arabia	434,666	2010
24 Norway	412,990	2010
25 Venezuela	391,817	2010
26 Austria	379,069	2010
27 Argentina	368,736	2010
28 South Africa	363,704	2010
29 Iran	331,015	2009
30 Thailand	318,522	2010
31 Denmark	309,866	2010
32 Greece	301,083	2010
33 United Arab Emirates	297,648	2010
34 Colombia	288,189	2010
35 Finland	238,746	2010
36 Malaysia	237,797	2010
37 Portugal	228,872	2010
Hong Kong	223,347	2010
38 Egypt	218,894	2010
39 Israel	217,333	2010
40 Chile	212,741	2010
41 Ireland	211,390	2010
42 Singapore	208,765	2010
43 Philippines	199,589	2010
44 Nigeria	193,669	2010
45 Czech Republic	192,032	2010
46 Pakistan	165,760	2010
47 Romania	161,624	2010
48 Algeria	159,426	2010
49 Peru	157,053	2010
50 Kazakhstan	149,059	2010
51 Ukraine	137,929	2010
52 Hungary	128,632	2010
53 New Zealand	126,679	2009
54 Kuwait	109,463	2009
55 Vietnam	106,427	2010
56 Bangladesh	100,357	2010
57 Qatar	98,313	2009
Puerto Rico	96,261	2010
58 Morocco	90,805n8	2010
59 Slovakia	87,268	2010
60 Angola	84,391	2010
61 Iraq	82,150	2010
62 Cuba	62,705	2008
63 Libya	62,360	2009
64 Sudan + South Sudan	62,046	2010
65 Croatia	60,852	2010
66 Syria	59,147	2010
67 Ecuador	57,978	2010
68 Belarus	54,713	2010
69 Luxembourg	53,334	2010
70 Azerbaijan	51,774	2010
71 Dominican Republic	51,766	2010
72 Sri Lanka	49,552	2010
73 Bulgaria	47,714	2010
74 Slovenia	46,908	2010
75 Oman	46,866	2009
76 Tunisia	44,291	2010
77 Guatemala	41,186	2010
78 Uruguay	40,265	2010
79 Lebanon	39,006	2010
80 Uzbekistan	38,982	2010
81 Serbia	38,423	2010
82 Lithuania	36,306	2010
83 Costa Rica	35,831	2010
84 Kenya	31,409	2010
85 Ghana	31,306	2010
86 Yemen	31,270	2010
87 Ethiopia	29,717	2010
Macau	27,850	2010
88 Jordan	27,574	2010
89 Panama	26,689	2010
90 Cyprus	23,132n9	2010
91 Latvia	24,010	2010
92 Tanzania	23,057n10	2010
93 Côte d'Ivoire	22,780	2010
94 Cameroon	22,394	2010
95 El Salvador	21,215	2010
96 Trinidad and Tobago	20,715	2010
97 Bahrain	20,595	2009
98 Turkmenistan	20,001	2010
99 Bolivia	19,650	2010
100 Estonia	19,217	2010
101 Paraguay	18,333	2010
102 Afghanistan	17,243	2010
103 Uganda	17,011	2010
104 Bosnia and Herzegovina	16,578	2010
105 Zambia	16,193	2010
106 Nepal	15,722	2010
107 Honduras	15,400	2010
108 Botswana	14,857	2010
109 Jamaica	14,252	2010
110 Equatorial Guinea	14,007	2010
111 Congo, Democratic Republic of the	13,145	2010
112 Gabon	13,011	2010
113 Senegal	12,954	2010
114 Iceland	12,574	2010
115 Namibia	12,170	2010
116 Congo, Republic of the	11,898	2010
117 Albania	11,786	2010
118 Georgia	11,667n11	2010
Guernsey, Jersey	11,515	2007
119 Cambodia	11,242	2010
120 Brunei	10,732	2009
121 Mauritius	9,839	2010
122 Mozambique	9,586	2010
123 Papua New Guinea	9,480	2010
124 Armenia	9,371	2010
125 Mali	9,251	2010
126 Macedonia, Republic of	9,189	2010
127 Burkina Faso	8,820	2010
128 Madagascar	8,721	2010
129 Malta	8,256	2010
130 Chad	7,588	2010
131 Bahamas, The	7,538	2010
132 Laos	7,492	2010
133 Zimbabwe	7,474	2010
134 Haiti	6,710	2010
135 Benin	6,633	2010
136 Monaco	6,581	2010
137 Nicaragua	6,551	2010
138 Mongolia	6,083	2010
139 Moldova	5,809n7	2010
Bermuda	5,765	2010
140 Tajikistan	5,640	2010
141 Rwanda	5,628	2010
142 Kosovo	5,591	2010
143 Niger	5,549	2010
144 Malawi	5,106	2010
145 Liechtenstein	5,101	2010
146 Kyrgyzstan	4,616	2010
147 Guinea	4,511	2010
Isle of Man	4,076	2007
West Bank and Gaza	4,016	2005
148 Montenegro	4,004	2010
149 Andorra	3,712	2008
150 Swaziland	3,645	2010
151 Mauritania	3,636	2010
French Polynesia	3,448	2000
152 Suriname	3,363	2009
153 Barbados	3,203	2010
154 Togo	3,153	2010
155 Fiji	3,119	2010
New Caledonia	2,682	2000
156 Guyana	2,333	2010
Faroe Islands	2,198	2009
157 Lesotho	2,132	2010
158 Eritrea	2,117	2010
159 Central African Republic	2,013	2010
Virgin Islands, U.S.	1,996	1993
Aruba	1,911	2002
160 Sierra Leone	1,905	2010
161 San Marino	1,900	2008
162 Cape Verde	1,648	2010
163 Burundi	1,611	2010
164 Bhutan	1,527	2010
165 Maldives	1,491	2010
166 Belize	1,432	2010
Greenland	1,268	2009
167 Djibouti	1,049	2009
168 Antigua and Barbuda	1,015	2010
Cayman Islands	1,012	1996
169 Liberia	986	2010
170 Seychelles	937	2010
171 Saint Lucia	932	2010
172 Somalia	917	1990
173 Guinea-Bissau	879	2010
174 Gambia, The	807	2010
175 Vanuatu	729	2010
176 Timor-Leste	701	2010
177 Solomon Islands	679	2010
178 Grenada	628	2010
179 Samoa	565	2010
180 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines	562	2010
181 Comoros	541	2010
182 Saint Kitts and Nevis	526	2010
183 Dominica	383	2010
184 Tonga	357	2010
185 Micronesia, Federated States of	287	2010
186 São Tomé and Príncipe	197	2010
187 Palau	170	2010
188 Marshall Islands	156	2010
189 Kiribati	151	2010
190 Tuvalu	27	2010



*Rank	Country/Region	GDP (millions of US$)* Year
World	70,160,000	2011
European Union	17,720,000	2011 est.
1 United States	15,060,000	2011 est.
2 China	6,989,000	2011 est.
3 Japan	5,855,000	2011 est.
4 Germany	3,629,000	2011 est.
5 France	2,808,000	2011 est.
6 Brazil	2,518,000	2011 est.
7 United Kingdom	2,481,000	2011 est.
8 Italy	2,246,000	2011 est.
9 India	1,843,000	2011 est.
10 Russia	1,791,000	2011 est.
11 Canada	1,759,000	2011 est.
12 Spain	1,537,000	2011 est.
13 Australia	1,507,000	2011 est.
*14 Mexico	1,185,000	2011 est.*
15 South Korea	1,164,000	2011 est.
16 Netherlands	858,300	2011 est.
17 Indonesia	834,300	2011 est.
18 Turkey	763,100	2011 est.
19 Switzerland	665,900	2011 est.
20 Sweden	571,600	2011 est.
21 Saudi Arabia	560,300	2011 est.
22 Poland	531,800	2011 est.
23 Belgium	529,000	2011 est.
24 Taiwan	504,600	2011 est.
25 Iran	480,300	2011 est.
26 Norway	479,300	2011 est.
27 Argentina	435,200	2011 est.
28 Austria	425,100	2011 est.
29 South Africa	422,000	2011 est.
30 United Arab Emirates	358,100	2011 est.
31 Denmark	349,100	2011 est.
32 Thailand	339,400	2011 est.
33 Colombia	321,500	2011 est.
34 Greece	312,000	2011 est.
35 Venezuela	309,800	2011 est.
36 Finland	270,600	2011 est.
37 Singapore	266,500	2011 est.
38 Malaysia	247,600	2011 est.
39 Nigeria	247,100	2011 est.
Hong Kong	246,900	2011 est.
40 Israel	245,300	2011 est.
41 Chile	243,000	2011 est.
42 Portugal	241,900	2011 est.
43 Egypt	231,900	2011 est.
44 Ireland	222,300	2011 est.
45 Czech Republic	220,300	2011 est.
46 Philippines	216,100	2011 est.
47 Pakistan	204,100	2011 est.
48 Romania	185,300	2011 est.
49 Algeria	183,400	2011 est.
50 Kazakhstan	180,100	2011 est.
51 Qatar	173,200	2011 est.
52 Kuwait	171,100	2011 est.
53 New Zealand	168,800	2011 est.
54 Peru	168,500	2011 est.
55 Ukraine	162,900	2011 est.
56 Hungary	147,900	2011 est.
57 Vietnam	121,600	2011 est.
58 Bangladesh	115,000	2011 est.
59 Iraq	108,600	2011 est.
60 Morocco	101,800	2011 est.
61 Angola	99,300	2011 est.
62 Slovakia	97,200	2011 est.
Puerto Rico	93,520	2010 est.
63 Azerbaijan	68,500	2011 est.
64 Oman	66,800	2011 est.
65 Ecuador	65,300	2011 est.
66 Syria	64,700	2011 est.
67 Croatia	64,200	2011 est.
68 Sudan	63,300	2011 est.
69 Luxembourg	62,900	2011 est.
70 Sri Lanka	58,800	2011 est.
71 Belarus	57,700	2011 est.
72 Cuba	57,490	2010 est.
73 Dominican Republic	54,400	2011 est.
74 Bulgaria	54,300	2011 est.
75 Slovenia	52,400	2011 est.
76 Burma	50,200	2011 est.
77 Uruguay	49,400	2011 est.
78 Tunisia	48,900	2011 est.
79 Guatemala	46,700	2011 est.
80 Serbia	43,900	2011 est.
81 Uzbekistan	43,700	2011 est.
82 Lithuania	43,200	2011 est.
83 Lebanon	41,500	2011 est.
84 Costa Rica	40,000	2011 est.
85 Ghana	38,600	2011 est.
86 Yemen	36,700	2011 est.
87 Kenya	36,100	2011 est.
88 Ethiopia	30,500	2011 est.
89 Panama	30,200	2011 est.
90 Jordan	28,400	2011 est.
91 North Korea	28,000	2009 est.
92 Latvia	27,400	2011 est.
93 Bahrain	26,400	2011 est.
94 Cameroon	25,800	2011 est.
95 Cyprus	25,700	2011 est.
96 Turkmenistan	24,100	2011 est.
97 Bolivia	23,900	2011 est.
98 Cote d'Ivoire	23,800	2011 est.
99 Tanzania	23,200	2011 est.
100 El Salvador	22,600	2011 est.
101 Estonia	22,500	2011 est.
102 Paraguay	22,300	2011 est.
Macau	22,100	2009 est.
103 Trinidad and Tobago	22,100	2011 est.
104 Equatorial Guinea	19,400	2011 est.
105 Zambia	18,400	2011 est.
106 Bosnia and Herzegovina	18,300	2011 est.
107 Nepal	18,300	2011 est.
108 Afghanistan	17,900	2011 est.
109 Honduras	17,300	2011 est.
110 Gabon	16,700	2011 est.
111 Botswana	16,400	2011 est.
112 Uganda	16,000	2011 est.
113 Brunei	15,600	2011 est.
114 Congo, Democratic Republic of the	15,300	2011 est.
115 Congo, Republic of the	15,100	2011 est.
116 Jamaica	14,700	2011 est.
117 Senegal	14,700	2011 est.
118 Iceland	14,100	2011 est.
119 Georgia	13,800	2011 est.
120 Albania	13,300	2011 est.
121 Cambodia	13,200	2011 est.
122 Namibia	13,000	2011 est.
123 Mozambique	12,100	2011 est.
124 Papua New Guinea	11,400	2011 est.
125 Mali	11,000	2011 est.
126 Mauritius	11,000	2011 est.
127 Macedonia	10,300	2011 est.
128 Armenia	10,200	2011 est.
129 Burkina Faso	10,100	2011 est.
130 Chad	9,600	2011 est.
131 Madagascar	9,400	2011 est.
132 Malta	9,300	2011 est.
133 Zimbabwe	9,200	
134 Mongolia	8,800	2011 est.
135 Bahamas, The	8,100	2011 est.
136 Laos	7,900	2011 est.
137 Benin	7,500	2011 est.
138 Haiti	7,400	2011 est.
139 Moldova	7,200	2011 est.
140 Nicaragua	7,100 2011 est.
141 Tajikistan	6,800	2011 est.
Kosovo	6,700	2011 est.
West Bank and Gaza	6,641	2,008
142 Niger	6,500	2011 est.
French Polynesia	6,100	2004
143 Rwanda	6,000	2011 est.
144 Malawi	5,700	2011 est.
145 Monaco	5,470	
146 Kyrgyzstan	5,400	2011 est.
Jersey	5,100	2005 est.
147 Liechtenstein	5,080	2008
Curacao	5,080	2008 est.
148 Guinea	4,600	2011 est.
149 Barbados	4,400	2011 est.
150 Montenegro	4,200	2011 est.
151 Mauritania	4,000	2011 est.
152 Suriname	3,900	2011 est.
153 Swaziland	3,900	2011 est.
154 Togo	3,600	2011 est.
155 Fiji	3,400	2011 est.
New Caledonia	3,300	2003 est.
Guam	2,773	2001
Guernsey	2,742	2005
Isle of Man	2,719	2005 est.
156 Lesotho	2,700	2011 est.
157 Eritrea	2,600	2011 est.
158 Guyana	2,500	2011 est.
Faroe Islands	2,450	2008 est.
159 Somalia	2,372	2010 est.
160 Central African Republic	2,300	2011 est.
Aruba	2,258	2005 est.
Cayman Islands	2,250	2008 est.
161 Maldives	2,100	2011 est.
162 Sierra Leone	2,100	2011 est.
Greenland	2,030	2008
163 Cape Verde	1,900	2011 est.
164 Bhutan	1,830	2011 est.
165 Burundi	1,700	2011 est.
166 San Marino	1,611	2011
167 Belize	1,500	2011 est.
168 Antigua and Barbuda	1,300	2011 est.
169 Djibouti	1,300	2011 est.
170 Saint Lucia	1,300	2011 est.
171 Liberia	1,200	2011 est.
Gibraltar	1,106	2006 est.
172 Gambia, The	1,100	2011 est.
British Virgin Islands	1,095	2008
173 Guinea-Bissau	1,000	2011 est.
174 Seychelles	1,000	2011 est.
175 Grenada	800	2011 est.
176 Solomon Islands	800	2011 est.
177 Vanuatu	800	2011 est.
Sint Maarten	794.7	2008
178 Saint Kitts and Nevis	700	2011 est.
179 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines	700	2011 est.
180 Timor-Leste	700	2011 est.
Northern Mariana Islands	633.4	2000
181 Comoros	600	2011 est.
183 Samoa	600	2011 est.
184 Dominica	500	2011 est.
American Samoa	462.2	2005
185 Tonga	400	2011 est.
186 Micronesia, Federated States of	238.1	2008
187 Kiribati	200	2011 est.
188 Sao Tome and Principe	200	2011 est.
Cook Islands	183.2	2005 est.
Anguilla	175.4	2009 est.
189 Palau	164	2008
190 Marshall Islands	161.7	2008 est.
Falkland Islands	105.1	2002 est.
191 Tuvalu	32	2010 est.
Niue	10.01	2003


----------



## tinyliny

I was wondering when you'd find this thread , Allison.

Our countries economic woes started LONG before Obama was on the horizon.


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## Allison Finch

Been here from the very beginning. I, considering the tenor of the responses, pretty much stayed out. However, misinformation about Mexico being "richer" per capita than the USA simply had to be addressed.

We just can't get over how lucky we are in this country. Too busy whining and complaining, it seems.


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## Lockwood

*runs to kitchen to refill popcorn bowl and get a drink*


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## FlyGap

Again, not true. Especially when we are at.... $10,638,799,951,454.05 and counting in debt. And then tack on INTEREST.
Mexico....$527,000,000.
(Exact numbers not known, just pulled)

The notion that "Uber Conservatives" are just again running their mouths and complaining when the PRESIDENT is choosing to BYPASS congress for the SAKE of his campaign, is again REDUNDANT. Keep hearing those terms slung around and it's insulting. ESPECIALLY when most of the ones on here that are against these kinds of actions have all PLAINLY stated that they vote for the man, not the party. Each of them have differing views. Yet, again not one of you have ridden the fence and admitted the pros and cons here, only slung terms. And supported the "New PC" terms, used by the media and gov when trying to smooth something over.
Poor undocumented workers, not ILLEGAL LAW BREAKING non-taxpaying, mooches of our society. Sure there are stories upon stories of the good, God bless them. To the border with the rest, don't we all say one bad egg spoils the fun? How about MILLIONS.

OH, when was the last time you talked to a person who went through alllll the red tape to become a LEGAL citizen? You don't see them jumping up and down for joy that all these LAW BREAKERS are handed better services, causing much more crime, and walking across the border without doing the RIGHT thing and coming in legally. For the kids, I understand we need to have a bit of compassion, THE KIDS under 18 or those who have served.


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## FlyGap

I change that, I agree with Faceman. Send the families back. They'll figure it out.

My parents were ex-pats in Germany. The amount of paperwork, background checks, regulations was overwhelming. FAR easier to come here with a work permit, and to apply for citizenship. Even I had to regulate my time over there to see them, couldn't apply for a job, and my brother was kicked OUT OF HS when he reached 18 and had to come home to finish here.


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## tinyliny

Germany used to let thousands of Turks in, to do the dirtywork that they wouldn't do themselves. You know, the "Arbeiters". That created a lot of social unrest, being that they could stay but could never rise above that special class. Are they still doing this?


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## Missy May

Yes, GDP taken as a number is meaningless. The standard of living and GDP is a bit more telling, so lets put it this way, per capita Mexicans living in mexico have more buying power, are taxed less (no illegals to care for), and have virtually NO debt against their money. So, for example, when their government spends money, almost none of it is "borrowed" from other countries or a centeral bank. 
So, iMexican dollars don't _need_ to say "a note". All they would have to do is sell a fraction of their silver and gold - and debt to any entity that the dollar was "lent from" would vanish. Now, take a good look at a US dollar...when it says "a note"...it means, a _note_...that perhaps your grandchildren's children can pay off IF no additional monies were ever borrowed by the US government. Why does this matter to the Standard of living and GDP? Taxes, jobs, salaries and inflation. If the GDP of the US were what it is today, say in... 1910, the standard of living GDP would have made Dubai's look destitute.


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## Faceman

Allison Finch said:


> To WHOM it may concern. Ignorance can go so many directions.
> 
> 
> Faceman says;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WOW, the arrogance.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *List by the International Monetary Fund (2011)[2]* List by the World Bank (1990–2010)[3] List by the CIA World Factbook (2000–2011)[1]
> Rank Country/Region GDP (millions of US$)
> World 69,659,626[4]
> European Union 17,577,691[4]
> 1 United States 15,094,025
> 2 China 7,298,147n2
> 3 Japan 5,869,471
> 4 Germany 3,577,031
> 5 France 2,776,324
> 6 Brazil 2,492,908
> 7 United Kingdom 2,417,570
> 8 Italy 2,198,730
> 9 Russia 1,850,401
> 10 Canada 1,736,869
> 11 India 1,676,143
> 12 Spain 1,493,513
> 13 Australia 1,488,221
> *14 Mexico 1,154,784*
> 15 South Korea 1,116,247
> 16 Indonesia 845,680
> 17 Netherlands 840,433
> 18 Turkey 778,089
> 19 Switzerland 636,059
> 20 Saudi Arabia 577,595
> 21 Sweden 538,237
> 22 Poland 513,821
> 23 Belgium 513,396
> 24 Norway 483,650
> 25 Iran 482,445
> 26 Taiwan 466,832
> 27 Argentina 447,644
> 28 Austria 419,243
> 29 South Africa 408,074
> 30 United Arab Emirates 360,136
> 31 Thailand 345,649
> 32 Denmark 333,238
> 33 Colombia 328,422
> 34 Venezuela 315,841
> 35 Greece 303,065
> 36 Malaysia 278,680
> 37 Finland 266,553
> 38 Singapore 259,849
> 39 Chile 248,411
> Hong Kong 243,302
> 40 Israel 242,897
> 41 Nigeria 238,920
> 42 Portugal 238,880
> 43 Egypt 235,719
> 44 Ireland 217,669
> 45 Czech Republic 215,265
> 46 Philippines 213,129
> 47 Pakistan 210,566
> 48 Algeria 190,709
> 49 Romania 189,776
> 50 Kazakhstan 178,312
> 51 Kuwait 176,667
> 52 Qatar 173,847
> 53 Peru 173,502
> 54 Ukraine 164,960
> 55 New Zealand 161,851
> 56 Hungary 140,303
> 57 Vietnam 122,722
> 58 Iraq 115,388
> 59 Bangladesh 113,032
> 60 Angola 100,948
> 61 Morocco 99,241
> 62 Slovakia 96,089
> 63 Oman 71,888
> 64 Ecuador 66,381
> 65 Sudan + South Sudan 64,750
> 66 Croatia 63,842
> 67 Azerbaijan 62,321
> 68 Sri Lanka 59,095
> 69 Luxembourg 58,412
> 70 Dominican Republic 56,700
> 71 Belarus 55,483
> 72 Bulgaria 53,514
> 73 Burma 51,925
> 74 Slovenia 49,588
> 75 Guatemala 46,897
> 76 Uruguay 46,872
> 77 Tunisia 46,360
> 78 Uzbekistan 45,353
> 79 Serbia 45,064
> 80 Lithuania 42,718
> 81 Costa Rica 40,947
> 82 Lebanon 39,039
> 83 Ghana 37,158
> 84 Libya 36,874
> 85 Kenya 34,796
> 86 Yemen 33,675
> 87 Ethiopia 31,256
> 88 Panama 30,569
> 89 Jordan 29,233
> 90 Latvia 28,252
> 91 Bahrain 26,108
> 92 Cameroon 25,759
> 93 Turkmenistan 25,742
> 94 Cyprus 24,949
> 95 Bolivia 24,604
> 96 Côte d'Ivoire 24,096
> 97 Tanzania 23,333
> 98 El Salvador 22,761
> 99 Trinidad and Tobago 22,707
> 100 Estonia 22,225
> 101 Paraguay 21,236
> 102 Equatorial Guinea 19,805
> 103 Zambia 19,206
> 104 Nepal 18,580
> 105 Afghanistan 18,181
> 106 Bosnia and Herzegovina 17,965
> 107 Botswana 17,570
> 108 Honduras 17,381
> 109 Uganda 16,810
> 110 Gabon 16,176
> 111 Congo, Democratic Republic of the 15,668
> 112 Brunei 15,533
> 113 Jamaica 14,807
> 114 Congo, Republic of the 14,769
> 115 Senegal 14,461
> 116 Georgia 14,347
> 117 Iceland 14,048
> 118 Cambodia 12,861
> 119 Albania 12,847
> 120 Mozambique 12,827
> 121 Papua New Guinea 12,655
> 122 Namibia 12,461
> 123 Mauritius 11,313
> 124 Mali 10,600
> 125 Macedonia, Republic of 10,327
> 126 Armenia 10,106
> 127 Madagascar 10,025
> 128 Burkina Faso 9,981
> 129 Chad 9,344
> 130 Zimbabwe 9,323
> 131 Malta 8,896
> 132 Mongolia 8,506
> 133 Bahamas, The 8,074
> 134 Laos 7,891
> 135 Haiti 7,388
> 136 Benin 7,306
> 137 Nicaragua 7,297
> 138 Moldova 7,003
> 139 Tajikistan 6,523
> 140 Kosovo 6,452
> 141 Rwanda 6,179
> 142 Niger 6,022
> 143 Kyrgyzstan 5,920
> 144 Malawi 5,673
> 145 Guinea 5,212
> 146 Montenegro 4,536
> 147 Barbados 4,478
> 148 Timor-Leste 4,315
> 149 Mauritania 4,200
> 150 Swaziland 3,947
> 151 Suriname 3,790
> 152 Togo 3,611
> 153 Fiji 3,546
> 154 Eritrea 2,609
> 155 Guyana 2,480
> 156 Lesotho 2,453
> 157 Burundi 2,356
> 158 Sierra Leone 2,196
> 159 Central African Republic 2,165
> 160 Maldives 1,944
> 161 Cape Verde 1,903
> 162 Bhutan 1,488
> 163 Belize 1,474
> 164 Djibouti 1,239
> 165 Saint Lucia 1,239
> 166 Antigua and Barbuda 1,187
> 167 Liberia 1,154
> 168 Seychelles 1,014
> 169 Gambia, The 977
> 170 Guinea-Bissau 969
> 171 Solomon Islands 840
> 172 Grenada 822
> 173 Vanuatu 743
> 174 Saint Kitts and Nevis 715
> 175 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 695
> 176 Samoa 630
> 177 Comoros 614
> 178 Dominica 489
> 179 Tonga 439
> 180 São Tomé and Príncipe 248
> 181 Kiribati 167
> 182 Tuvalu 35
> Syria n/a


It is pretty sad when you can call someone arrogant because you are a mod, and if I return the favor in kind I will be censured or worse - as has happened in the past.

OK - I won't attach any name calling as you have done...referring to someone as arrogant is not the same thing as referring to them as naive about a particular subject. I will merely state (redundantly) that the goods and services the US spends - or in the case of GDP, what the GDP is, does NOT determine either the wealth of a country or in any way controlling the world economy. For Heaven sakes, the next 4 countries alone after the US exceed our GDP - does that not tell you anything? The US GDP is a fraction of the world's GDP. If you don't want to take my word for it, add up the GDP's of the other 190 countries...I'm not going to do it, because simple observation is sufficient.

If you want to refer to someone that knows more about a subject than another, and 100 times more than you, as arrogant, that is your right, of course. I certainly don't refer to people that know more about minis or equitation or quilting than I do as arrogant. db is well educated, but has limited knowledge of economics, just as I have limited knowledge of psychology, which is one area of his expertise. He doesn't take our discussions personally any more than I do - you seem to be the only one who tries to make issues personal...


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## Horse Poor

Well, by the statistic quoted by Allison, that would put Mexico in the top 10% of the world's economy! That's not "per capita" tho - the quotes listed are for GDP (Gross Domestic Product) only, IOW, "national wealth". Mexico actually ranks higher in PPP (purchasing power parity) or "living standard" than Canada does! No, Mexico isn't "richer than the US", but it is certainly NOT poor when compared to the rest of the world (as these stats do). Do you know who the richest man on the planet is and has been for several years running? Hint, he's Mexican…

We don't need new immigration laws…we need to enforce the ones we already have. But first, we need to secure the border so that when we do deport, they can't hop back over.

And you can call them "undocumented workers" if you want, but many do not work. Unless you consider criminal activity work. And many are not undocumented, but fraudulently documented getting jobs and Government benefits that they are not entitled to by using fake IDs, SS#, names, birth certs and so forth.


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## dbarabians

The majority of the people that live in Mexico live below what we would consider the poverty line in the US.
Like most developing countries most of the money in Mexico is in the hands of very few people.
This thread and others are for discussion and debates.
I do not take anything personal nor am I trying to change anyones beliefs.
Just because we disagree doesn't mean we always will.
I for one will not carry any animosity with me from this thread about anyone.
I also hope that my post have avoided personalizing my debate and if anyone feels that I have done so please accept my apology. Shalom


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## Allison Finch

Same here.

I guess I just chafe when I feel that people who know nothing about my training (degrees) can be so dismissive of the fact that I have any actual knowledge. I guess it did grind a bit.


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## Horse Poor

dbarabians said:


> The majority of the people that live in Mexico live below what we would consider the poverty line in the US.
> Like most developing countries most of the money in Mexico is in the hands of very few people.


I imagine so! Poor by American standards would mean rich by world standards. I doubt a poor Mexican lives like a poor Rowandan does. 

FWIW, Mexicans are MEXICO'S responsibility, not ours. If Mexicans don't like the way things are in their country THEY need to change it instead of using the US as their fall back position. Mexico needs to create good paying jobs for their own citizens instead of relying on America and our generosity. As long as we allow illegal immigration to continue, Mexico has no reason to change. Why should they? They can export their poor and import money through remittances…a win-win for Mexico.


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## dbarabians

In the interior of mexico most people living in those small villages do not have access to indoor plumbing, airconditioning, some have no electricity.
I went to a friends wedding I thought I was in the early 1900's not the 21st Century.
Mexicos largest source of income is the money sent back by those that work in the US.
That fact alone speaks volumes about its lack of wealth.
Allison it is easy to get caught up in the emotions of a debate.
Faceman is a good guy I enjoy reading his post and his opinions may differ from mine but he backs them up with logic. I think he feels the same about me. I may not agree with Missy May sometimes but we have shared a few laughs and will do so again. Shalom


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## tinyliny

I venture to guess the Mexicans see it totally different from that. IT's a lot more complex than them ""relying on our generosity". I think they see it as us getting rich off their bent backs. But every coin has two sides.

Not to mention how our selling of weapons illegally to their drug cartels is fueling a horrific violence. And our refusal to take an honest look at the drug policy. i.e. the legalization of marijuana, is keeping the cartels in riches.
But, that's another fractious thread topic.


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## Cherie

Ever since Reagan granted BLANKET AMNESTY to about 5 million illegal immigrant workers in 1986 (you know -- Ronald Reagan -- the Conservative Republican GOD), every single President has promised to 'fix' the growing problem of a non-existent Southern border and the millions of illegal aliens that cross it. 

NONE of them has done a single thing. This is because it is impossible to find, arrest, incarcerate and deport that many people. It would cost BILLIONS of Dollars we do not have with shrinking budgets and lower tax collections brought on by the 13 million plus jobs lost to the latest recession / depression. [To blame Obama for the recession / depression is like blaming Kennedy for WW II.]

The reality sinks in with all Presidents when they are briefed on the actual figures and facts.

Fact -- American agriculture depends on these immigrants to the point that all of our milk, meat, eggs, fruit, produce, and much of our grain, soybeans, corn and other farm products (the United States biggest trade surplus) would all be imported because American agriculture would be crippled to the point that it could not exist as we now know it.

Fact -- All of our big hog farms, all of our poultry farms, egg producers, and all our domestic slaughter houses are manned almost entirely by undocumented workers. Most dairies and almost all produce growers, and fruit growers depend totally on undocumented workers. They ALL pay taxes. SS and withholding is taken out of every paycheck even though they will never get a penny of it back. This keeps the Feds away. They 'look' the other way becuse to arrest the workers would shut down the entire industry. 

Fact -- Every time undocumented workers have been rounded up in rural areas and deported, produce rotted in the fields, fruit rotted on trees and grain and soybeans could not be harvested or taken by elevators. 

It has been estimated that if workers could be found that were willing to work out in the fields in the hot sun, a head of lettuce would cost at least $10.00, Tomatoes would be $15 -$20.00 a pound. Pork and chicken would cost more than beef and it would cost at least twice a much as it does now. 

Mahard Egg Farms has 2 poultry houses near Sulphur, OK. They have several million birds and are one of the biggest egg producers in the US. Their main office is in Prosper, TX. There is not a person in this part of the country that would work there. Last year during the heat wave (over 100 days over 100 degrees) as many as 50,000 birds died a day and had to be taken out of the cages by hand. This is with huge misters and hundreds of 8-10 foot fans. The Mexicans that work there are the only ones that would do it. If he could not hire them, he would move his egg farms to Mexico where there were no standards to adhere to and your eggs would be coming from there. 

The result would be inflation like we have never seen it with food costs alone at least doubling. 

If restaurants could find kitchen workers in big cities, meal costs would at least double.

Every horse farm we have been to (this includes all of the big reining and cutting places in Texas and Oklahoma) depend on them totally for chores. The big cutting breeding farms have 30 or 40 of them at each farm. The racing industry is the same. It is not even a matter of paying more for American help. There are NO people that will take the jobs -- period.

The Chamber of Commerce (All Conservative Republican) want more undocumented workers for their member businesses to hire to stay competitive. 

The Dems want them all to vote.

The Colleges and Universities want them to be able to pay tuition and attend any college. 

Not only have businesses (many owned by conservative Republicans businessmen) prospered on the back of cheap Mexican labor, every American citizen spends a smaller percentage of their income on food because of them.

So, when every President gets into office and finds out that it is not only impossible to 'Fix' the problem, Congress won't even touch it.

For anything meaningful change, we need a secure border -- I don't care if it takes a 40 foot high fence or a moat with alligators -- we need secure borders. 

We need a simple, easily managed 'guest worker' program where industries that cannot recruit domestic labor (like farms) can quickly get the labor they need to harvest and process farm goods.

We need an identification system complete with finger prints, photos and possibly DNA on record for every Alien worker. Every one of them should report any change in address or employment status within 7 days.

Anyone who thinks our Country would actually function without them is REALLY naive. 

Anyone who thinks ANY presidential candidate could actually 'fix' the problem is just as naive. 

It will take the cooperation of both Parties and a very different Congress than we have now to come up with comprehensive reform.

There is a reason -- a very good reason -- why no one has done anything and no one will with the present poison climate in politics.

I think the President did exactly what needed to be done. It is not all 'Political'. With the Republican controlled House and the Senate now needing 60 votes to even get anything up for vote, what he did is the only thing that could be done to make the Conservatives even wake up and possibly do something. But-- alas -- they still said today that NO legislation will leave the House until after the November election.


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## tinyliny

Thank you for taking the time to put that together. pretty darn common sensical and to the point.


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## kitten_Val

Cherie said:


> We need a simple, easily managed 'guest worker' program where industries that cannot recruit domestic labor (like farms) can quickly get the labor they need to harvest and process farm goods.
> 
> We need an identification system complete with finger prints, photos and possibly DNA on record for every Alien worker. Every one of them should report any change in address or employment status within 7 days.


Cherie, that's exactly what some of us on thread said. This is a LEGAL way to go and those people will be LEGAL here. However there IS a category for that already called H2 visa (H-2A Visa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Why the employers don't use it then? Too expensive or what?


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## Cherie

BUT-- you can't get them. Most of them are denied and the red tape takes so long that crops would rot while the papers were being pushed around. We know several people that have tried to go that route and every single one we know was denied and in frustration they just hunted up any Mexican they could find. 

Any program has to be quick and workable. The one we have now is not.

[Wikapedia is not exactly the epitome of correct information.]


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## dbarabians

kitten val employers would then have to pay decent wages and have some government oversight.
It is much easier for the employer to wait for someone to show up or have an employee bring in a newly arrived family member.
If anyone thinks it is easy for undocumented workers to get hereallow me to tell you about a local citizenHe was born here his brother was not but only a couple opf years older than he is.
Their mother was dying in Mexico and both wnet home to see her.
After the funeral the US citizen crossed back into the US.
The other brother paid about 8,000$ to have the coyote get them across.
They were released in the desert and told to walk toward a place with food and water. first place no problem the second there was nothing several died including the brother.
This is an example of how dismal things are and how much danger they expose themselves to.
If the threat of certain death won't stop them a fence or a border patrol agent is only a nuisance.
Something needs to be done.
Not only to enforce our immigration policies, prevent deaths, but also, the coyotes work for the drug cartels.
That is who really controls the flow of immigrants. Shalom


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## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> The majority of the people that live in Mexico live below what we would consider the poverty line in the US.
> Like most developing countries most of the money in Mexico is in the hands of very few people.


True - you won't hear me talking about how well Mexican nationals live.

The sad irony is Mexico has the potential to generate substantial wealth, but for whatever reason hasn't. I am ignorant of Mexican politics, so can't offer an explanation. What I can tell you as a retired Geophysicist is that Mexico has tremendous untapped offshore oil and gas reserves in the Gulf. To date, US policy has been to not infringe upon those reserves by drilling off the coast of Mexico. There are known onshore basins containing hydrocarbons as well, but the offshore potential is impressive.

Mexico has had plenty of time to either develop its own expertise and technology to extract and refine its energy reserves or to import or outsource the expertise and technology, much as China has done. 25 years ago I spent a year in China overseeing a seismic processing facility. At that time they did not have the expertise to process and interpret seismic data to locate subsurface hydrocarbon bearing structures to pick drilling sites, so imported that expertise while developing their own. Today, China is positioned to do its own exploration, drilling, and refining independently, although it still does use western expertise to a degree. Why Mexico has not taken the same path is a mystery to me. I'm sure it is not the case, but it is almost like the government is suppressing progress, which is an absurd thought, but that's what the appearance is anyway.

While working for Exxon Production Research Company, I spent a year in South and West Texas in the Kingsville, Eagle Pass, Del Rio, and Alpine areas procesing and helping to interpret seismic data, and spent quite a bit of what little off time I had in Mexico. The border towns are bad, but anyone that has gone down in to interior Mexico (not the posh oceanfront tourist areas on the coasts), knows how the general opulation lives - it is rather pitiful quite frankly. Just to give you an example of what people contend with, COPD/chronic lung disease is rampant in Mexico City. The cause? A mixture of pollution caused by the dust of dog poop from thousands upon thousands of stray dogs in the city, cooking with wood stoves, and general city pollution rimarily be motor vehicles with no emission standards. Over 50% of children display lung pathologies that point to a future of lung disease.

Although living conditions for the majority of the general population are poor, I am not one that believes the answer is for hordes of people to leave the country and invade the US. The answer is for the country to resolve its own issues. Mexico does have the capability of developing its energy reserves to create thousands upon thousands of jobs from oil company executives all the way down to oilfield laborers, and to generate billions in revenues annually and greatly increase the general standard of living. Honestly, I don't see why we as Americans should shoulder taking care of their people when the country is capable of helping itself. Under the circumstances, if Mexico refuses to help itself, then I have no sympathy - other than feeling quite sorry for the children that have to live that way because their parent's generation does not have the motivation, character, or whatever it takes to do the job...


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## dbarabians

Faceman, the money in Mexico has been in the hands of people mainly of pure spainish desent and has been for centuries.
Those at the top benefit financially from keeping things just as they always have been.
Now with the drug cartels controlling a large segment of the Mexican economy I do not see anything changing soon.
Progress is going to take time and since the party that Vincent Foxx was a member of has only been in office a little over a decade ther is not much change.
Plus the cartel wars are hindering any progress.
With over 50,000 people murdered Mexico has a undeclared civil war going on.
That and they distrust any help from the US for historic reasons.
We basically took over everything from Texas to California in the name of progress.
Then again as the countries in the Middle east deplete their oil reserves Mexico may one day find itself the #1 oil producing country in the world.
Within our lifetime. Shalom


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## Missy May

Oh, come on now, db, "we basically took over everything from Texas to California in the name of progress." ??? Is that straight from a La RAZA handbook? 

Mexico's shortcomings are not a product of a shortage of resources and land mass....so if the nasty US had not of taken, bought, or annexed TX to California, then the inhabitants of AZ and CA would probably be under the Mexican goverment. You can't have it both ways...if the mexican government is superior to ours (since TX to CA would have been better off under Mexican rule, by your estimation), then WHY does it even have "poor citizens" much less citizens that "need" to come to the US to access medical, jobs, welfare, education, sell drugs, and be treated "more equal"??

BTW, the Mexican families that inhabited AZ and CA at the time of purchase or end of war were given a choice to stay and become citizens or leave, AND they were allowed to keep their property - generally Mexican land grants for which there was a document trail. So the only difference to those people that stayed (the majority)??? A government change. 

Furthermore, there are no more "controlling families" in Mexico that can be attributed to their geneology than any other civilized country on the planet. 

And, being in TX, you should know the history...its required in all of their schools and colleges, so just ask someone on the street.


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## Horse Poor

Here's info from the government on the H2 visa…

USCIS - H-2A Agricultural Workers


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## tinyliny

I think that to understand why Mexico has not utilixzed its' great natural resources to its benefit, one would have to examine its history.

Just having been colonized by Spain, ruled by France for some years makes the culture of the country very much different than the US , which had its' beginnings from Puritan English settlers. The work ethic is totally different. The concept of land ownership, too. 
Mexico was concquered by the Church for its' souls and its' silver. Things were taken out of it, for the benefit of Spain. It was very much a subordinate. At least, the large majority of the people were. They were a workforce, for the benefit of a few, and for the Spanish crown.

We have our own history of Slavery, and we had a pretty cruel system that kept millions of people on the fringes. But, there was a general culture of the individual, who could hope to make some thing for himself from his labours. I


Another huge difference is that Canada and USA live by the rule of law. Graft is minor, compared to Mexico. This might not sound like a big difference, but when a people have no confidence in the stability of the law, it creates huge , self perpetuating power inbalances that make it hard for the "little guy" to build anything. he has to have the money to pay the backsheesh. 

I read somewhere ,I think it was in the book "Bliss", about the happiest people in the world, that having confidence in the law to uphold the law was fundamental for a nation to be a "happy" nation.


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## FlyGap

I agree with most everything you said Cherie.

But WHY push this instead of putting forth an initiative that would help EVERYONE. It is ALL political. 
It is easy to say that nothing can be done when there is. The first step is to secure the border, not give out passes. You said it too.
Mexico needs their feet held to the fire. Not the American people.
For every job you listed there are millions more working in the private sector and in the criminal arenas that are NOT paying taxes. I would wholeheartedly support a measure that granted maybe even citizenship to those in the agriculture industry as long as the businesses SPONSORED them and made sure they went through the processes correctly. Sure they need cheap labor, but what they are paying for cheap, the rest of us are paying 10 fold for their medical care, and on and on. I agree, finding a person to clean chicken houses, break their backs in the fields, etc is nearly impossible. Especially when farms are in rural areas with small populations. We struggle to hire people to clean our cabins and do small bits of labor and the nearest town is half an hour away. BUT WE FIND THEM and they are all legal and white, since you say they won't do it. Our business is small, but we pay decent wages. The large companies say it's too hard and expensive to hire legals. Thats because of all the RED TAPE the government makes business owners climb through.
Obama is even trying to make this HARDER. Taxing MORE, what will the companies be saying then? Especially when they have to match SS, provide healthcare, and the multiple other things American companies have to do. Pretty soon we will all be forced to hire illegals. What then?
Another avenue large corps do is hire independent contractors. Ya think they are paying their "fair share" in taxes? Nope.

We get a measly measure saying "Hey you guys! Vote for me and I won't kick you out. I'm your guy!" It is insulting and he is another person preying on those people.
There are solutions and one does not have to be Nieve to believe that someone can and should fix it... Instead of plastering pandering bandaids on the problem.
You are right, the current and potentially forever atmosphere in DC prohibits any REAL CHANGE. That's because we have quit breeding men with cojones.


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## kitten_Val

Cherie said:


> *BUT-- you can't get them. Most of them are denied *and the red tape takes so long that crops would rot while the papers were being pushed around. We know several people that have tried to go that route and every single one we know was denied and in frustration they just hunted up any Mexican they could find.
> 
> Any program has to be quick and workable. The one we have now is not.
> 
> [Wikapedia is not exactly the epitome of correct information.]


That's interesting. I didn't check the fee you have to pay for H2, but I assume it should be rather low. My understanding the business should also have a "permit" to file for such workers (which makes sense). This program (if it'd work) would definitely simplify everything.

P.S. I only posted wiki because I didn't have time to go to uscis etc sites, so just grabbed the 1st one in list. I agree, quite often the info there is not very correct to start with, so I don't rely on it.

P.P.S. It's a crazy day today, so can't join the discussion/answer... Will try to catch up later on...


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## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> Faceman, the money in Mexico has been in the hands of people mainly of pure spainish desent and has been for centuries.


Having a lot of Mexican/Hispanic friends and associates, I am reasonably familiar with the traditional distinction between Castillian Spanish Mexicans and those of mixed blood - primarily Indian, of course, and the historical caste system that distinction entails. But, I am not so familiar with the country or its people to really know the rammifications when it comes to politics and economics. I also don't know if that distinction has attenuated over the years. I know about 35 years ago when I was more exposed to the Hispanic community, that caste system was still very strong...I would have hoped it would have improved by now, but perhaps not...


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## FlyGap

So...
A Liberal Police Officer, Psychiatrist, and others walk into a bar with a Horse Trainer guru and a few somewhat conservative/independent people including a Geologist, Domestic CEO, Academic Analyst, Artist/Venue Operator and others...
They have a great debate over politics and all walk out laughing and holding hands solving the entire world's problems!

You guys are great! I respect you in here and out!


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## Horse Poor

Cherie said:


> BUT-- you can't get them. Most of them are denied and the red tape takes so long that crops would rot while the papers were being pushed around. We know several people that have tried to go that route and every single one we know was denied and in frustration they just hunted up any Mexican they could find.
> 
> Any program has to be quick and workable. The one we have now is not.
> 
> [Wikapedia is not exactly the epitome of correct information.]


Reading the link I posted, it appears that it is the EMPLOYER who pays the fee and files/petitions for the visa on behalf of the migrant worker. Companies seeking foreign labor do not comb American streets looking for illegal migrant workers already here…visaed workers are supposed to be located in another country, not here illegally waiting to be picked for a job. 

And companies who do not have enough foresight to have an adequate workstaff in place by scheduled harvest times have no one to blame but themselves for their "rotting crops". Immigration should not be blamed for poor planning and bad management decisions of that company! Agribusiness knows how much time, man power and resources they need to grow and harvest their crops. And if they intend to access a foreign workforce, they need, at the very least, to become knowledgeable about it before depending upon it.


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## Horse Poor

tinyliny said:


> Another huge difference is that Canada and USA live by the rule of law. Graft is minor, compared to Mexico. This might not sound like a big difference, but when a people have no confidence in the stability of the law, it creates huge , self perpetuating power inbalances that make it hard for the "little guy" to build anything. he has to have the money to pay the backsheesh.
> 
> I read somewhere ,I think it was in the book "Bliss", about the happiest people in the world, that having confidence in the law to uphold the law was fundamental for a nation to be a "happy" nation.


Soooo…do you agree with deportation for illegal aliens or not? As you stated, we are a country who lives by the rule of law and the consequences for being here illegally is deportation. So I ask you, are you one who honors the law or are you one who cherry picks law - abiding by laws you agree with while ignoring those you don't.


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## Faceman

FlyGap said:


> So...
> A Liberal Police Officer, Psychiatrist, and others walk into a bar with a Horse Trainer guru and a few somewhat conservative/independent people including a Geologist, Domestic CEO, Academic Analyst, Artist/Venue Operator and others...
> They have a great debate over politics and all walk out laughing and holding hands solving the entire world's problems!
> 
> You guys are great! I respect you in here and out!


That's because they are all intelligent.

Well, all that is except for the Jewish Psychiatrist whose family moved to Paris, Texas, 50 years ago and have been looking for the Avenue des Champs- Élysées ever since...


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## Missy May

I just have this to add about this mythical "can't find anyone" to do the work that illegals will. First, there is such a thing as a "green card", and has been for decades. Second, how, exactly did the colonist and thier descendants ever harvest a single ear of corn w/o illegals? There was no gas powered machinery until last century...so how did they do it??? Third, machinery does the VAST majority of farm labor. Fourth, I farmed and ranched for decades. I did the work, too...I did not instruct laborers or hands what to do whilst drinking a mint julep on the porch. So much for the "_no one_ else will do the work" theory. And, at NO time did I ever see a farmer or a rancher advertise for help in _any_ media - dairies, yes, I have seen them advertise. And, the very best ranch hands I ever witnessed were Native American mix...NOT illegals. My point there is that Native Americans are often discriminated against b/c people don't think they will show up on time or do the work. No Obama executive order for them to be hired over illegals or NOT required to be bilingual to get hired, that I can see. The large farms that complain that no one else will do the work do not adverstise, so how would they know? The term "no one" is an absolute. What they mean by "no one" is no one they asked at the local watering hole, which doesn't translate to "no one" in their county, much less state, much less the entire US. And, BTW, farms and ranches are subsidized by the US government. Furthermore, there are large pieces of expensive equipment that will harvest almost any crop....not all, but most all. If one actually believes that our main food production (for people and livestock consumption) comes from farms that are to small to buy or contract equipment, but to big for a family to operate - they have not farmed much. Fifth, construction. When I was a kid, buff teenage boys could easily get a job w construction outfits - very easily. That meant they made money on thier own home country soil and contributed to their US household and payed US taxes. To believe that "kids these days" will not do this work is believing what one wants to - it is not true. I know many teenagers that would love to have the jobs they cannot get b/c construction outfits AND farms and dairies, etc., etc, hire illegals. Teenagers are but one segment of the legal US population that are adversely affected - it goes on, and on. Many of these jobs that allegedly "no one else will do" are in airconditioned buildings...not field labor. In fact, one would be surprised at how many of them are hired by government contractors....those are davis-bacon wages...no one will work for those wages?? Really?? Then, of course, there are places like Tyson foods. I don't think they bread and deep freeze chicken parts out in the fields. 

It has been my observation that those individuals that are most for the "rights" of illegals are also all for welfare b/c, as the argument goes, recipients can't get a job or don't have the education to make more money than they deserve to be handed, compliments of the taxpayer, in the form of welfare. What is even more perplexing is that the same people act affronted by racism. The ONLY explanation for their beliefs that illegals and welfare recipients behave entirely differently from any other members of the human race is - beyond racism...it would require some form of programmed "trigger" that initiats metamorphic like speciesization.


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## Allison Finch

Just for some interesting reading about the "caste system" in Mexico is this ethnography about the aristocracy in Mexico. It may offer some insight into the culture and why a major proportion of the population has been so disenfranchised.

Table of Contents and Excerpt, Nutini, The Mexican Aristocracy

Yes, I agree that until the Mexican government makes huge reforms that will allow greater access to the _indigenas_ and _mestizos_, there will be people looking for a better life.


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## FlyGap

Lets blame the Mexican Government for the influx of illegals, and do NOTHING about it... Obama had NO PROBLEM supporting Egypt and Libya, you know, civil rights? 
He helped them with all their problems, then gives a "Come on, I won't kick you out" to the Mexicans. 
Egyptians and Libyans can't keep him in the White House.


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## Allison Finch

I agree, let's go in there guns blazing and take out that selfish government. Then we can let our corporations go in there and strip the country of its resources. Then, HEY, Canada has some pretty nice stuff too. Their army could never stand up to ours. Our modis operandi? Who's next...

Reminds me of an old Tom Lehrer song. A bit dated, but still unsettling.


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## FlyGap

It's the hypocrisy of the situation. ESPECIALLY when we are being DIRECTLY impacted. Far more than from Egypt or Libya. This is not only in our backyard, it is in the house. 
Oil they say? Well Mexico, Canada, and the US has more than they do.
But we can't drill HERE, or import from THERE! It's BAD. 

I'm NEVER for goin in guns a blazin, a major tax, NATO intervention, embargoes, whatever it takes to get this solved.


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## Cherie

It is just not that simple. Again, I suppose it is difficult for people that have not been involved with harvests and farm labor to understand. 

I have never been involved with vegetable growers so do not know just how migratory their workers are. The key word here is 'migratory'. The workers follow the ripening crops and the ripening times and amount are not very predictable. Weather and related forces determine whether a grower needs 20 workers or 50. 

I do know that when INS gathered all of the migrant workers from the Colorado Apple Orchards a few years back (My family lives in a fruit growing area), a few HS kids and few unemployed people came out for a day or two, decided it was too hard. [A sack of apples that is carried on a worker's shoulders down the ladder to the big box moved by a forklift weighs 60#.] Most of the apples rotted on the trees

Just last year, when immigrant workers fled Alabama, thousands of acres of strawberries, tomatoes and other crops were plowed under. 

I know first hand how the wheat harvest works. Husband used to work the wheat harvest and he has a brother that manages a big Co-Op. They depend entirely on migrant workers that follow the wheat harvest. The tiny, near dead towns in western Oklahoma, the Texas Panhandle and western Kansas, have about a 3 - 4 week long harvest. It starts in South Texas in late April and early May and works north to the Canadian border in September. This year it was 3 weeks early because of the record temps in March and April. It has moved into Kansas now, about 3 weeks earlier than anyone has ever seen it there. It has usually going through NE Colorado about the 3rd or 4th week of July and this year they are getting ready to harvest wheat now.

Last year, they planned on a wheat harvest and the heat and drought ended up with a tiny harvest of poor quality wheat. Western OK had only about 15 - 20% of a normal crop. 

When seasonal migratory workers are depended on, they have to be available. I have been sitting in the Co-Op in one of the western OK towns when 2 or 3 people were calling every number they could find to get workers there because 10 of the workers they knew were coming had just been gathered up and sent to El Paso. It rained before they could get anyone there and thousands of bushels of wheat were lost that had been dumped on big tarps on the ground because they could not get trucks loaded out of the elevator before the storm.

The cotton harvest is the same. It also is totally dependent on the weather and the seasons that particular year. 

As far as a guest worker program -- I have known several people personally that tried to get workers and every single one of them was turned down after weeks of paper shuffling and appeals. Or, the Govt agents wanted to send them workers that were not suitable instead of letting them get in relatives of men they knew who were familiar with what was needed to be done. 

As far as 'cheap' labor, steady workers that are good help, honest and know what they are doing make $500.00 or more per week plus get housing and utilities and often times a beef a year. Help that can drive tractors, run equipment, run irrigation pumps and pivot sprinklers, etc, get up to $1000.00 a week.

A reining trainer / friend of ours that moved from California to Southern OK bought a place, built a barn and lived in an RV for several months. The first houses they built were for their Mexican help (two families) that had been with them for several years. Their own house was the last thing that was built. The good Mexican help (not the drunks and drifters) are treated like family. We have rancher-neighbors that now employ the sons of their original help. 

Some are paid cash, but that cash comes out of a trainer's or rancher's pocket. They pay the tax on it since they cannot show it as an expense on their books. They would rather pay the taxes on it from their own income than fight with the Government and IRS. Their tax burden is usually at a higher rate than the combined tax and Fica that they and their help would otherwise pay.

If they are a drain on local economies, you better not tell Guyman, OK that. The whole town was nearly dead, school enrollment was down every year, Main Street had more empty buildings than business. After the big hog farms were built and Mexican workers moved in to fill the jobs, the town has more than doubled in size, they build a new school, new hospital, new shopping centers and tax revenues are 3 or 4 time higher than they were.

Oh well, time to get back to work.


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## Missy May

Why would anyone want to invade and take Mexico in response to their illegal invasion of the US? How would that benefit US, Chinese, Canadian, etc., corporations, which are and have already re-locating there?

And, why would anyone want to upset their superior environmental and human rights laws? None of the US's business, whatsoever. But, what illegally comes onto US soil is, necessarily, the US's business. 

I think most citizens would just like to see the borders protected and the illegals retreat. Or, at the very, very least, not be treated as "less equal" b/c they are a citizens, or have to pay for the illegal's "more equal" treatment. And, not be responsible for the short comings of the Mexican government when it comes to the treatment of its citizens...or likewise for any other government.


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## Cherie

Gee Missy -- I do not even know where to start. Almost everything you said is so inaccurate that it is plain that you do not know what you do not know. 

We have to handle nothing but big round bales (a real PITA) because for the last 15 years there have been ZERO HS boys that will go out in the heat and pick up a single square bale of hay. I picked up thousands of them when I was a kid and husband and I used to haul in hay by hand until we could no longer do it.

We know many farmers that have spent thousands of dollars on advertising and got few or no applicants and most could not pass a drug screen or had a history of steeling. I guess in all of your wisdom, you have not run into the High Plains Journal. There are pages of high priced ads for farm help in there every single week -- thousands of unfilled high paying jobs. I do not know any farmer who would not hire American help in a heartbeat -- there just are no men wanting the jobs. 

As for machinery -- most vegetable crops and tree crops like peaches and apricots and cherries cannot be machine picked. They damage the trees and plants and cannot pick the right tomato or berries. Vineyards are the same. Human eyes and hands are necessary . 

And nobody hires Mexicans because they want them to have a better life. They hire them because they are hard-working, dependable and are good help and they NEED them.

Oh heck -- this is a waste of time.


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## Allison Finch

Missy May said:


> Why would anyone want to invade and take Mexico in response to their illegal invasion of the US? How would that benefit US, Chinese, Canadian, etc., corporations, which are and have already re-locating there?


They are down there for more reasons than cheap labor. There are fewer regulations down there that keep them from fouling the water and air, that keep them from putting children at hard labor, that make them provide safe work environments etc etc etc.

I keep hearing conservative candidates saying we need to get rid of restrictive regulations here, too. Over my dead body!! Oh, wait...if I have to breathe the resultant air and drink the water, that may be reality.



> And, why would anyone want to upset their superior environmental and human rights laws? None of the US's business, whatsoever. But, what illegally comes onto US soil is, necessarily, the US's business.


Just curious. Are you willing to go back to the days of opaque air and water that you can set fire to? I think our regulations REQUIRING the companies to look after the environment is worth the extra money I pay for the products.



> I think most citizens would just like to see the borders protected and the illegals retreat. Or, at the very, very least, not be treated as "less equal" b/c they are a citizens, or have to pay for the illegal's "more equal" treatment. And, not be responsible for the short comings of the Mexican government when it comes to the treatment of its citizens...or likewise for any other government.


When we take over Mexico, we won't need to worry about the borders. They will all be Americans, right? I guess we have to conquer all the way to the tip of Patagonia to not have to worry about pesky borders.

As for our helping Iraq, you really think our oil reserves top theirs? Libya has something we will never have. The best "light sweet crude" which is found in precious few areas of the world. We would love for Libya to feel indebted enough to us to offer us a good supply of that. If Syria had such nice oil reserves as Iraq, we may be helping the insurgents there more. I guess we really have learned a lesson from the "Arab Spring". The governments that replace the old regimes, are no sure bet that they will be nicer to us.


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## FlyGap

Mexico isn't nice to us now. So I can see how they would be even worse if we told them to shove it. But sometimes we have to stand up for whats best for everyone. No one said ANYTHING about "taking over Mexico".
They need to come in legally, like most other immigrants or be subject to deportation. For breaking the LAW. Aren't you a police officer? It is NOT fair for those that do follow the laws.

Cherie, I agree that immigrant workers are necessary for our economy. If they come here legally, not because it's easier/cheaper/faster to walk across the border.
My mom is getting ready to fire her house keeper because she is terrible. The lady is paid VERY well, yet she blows through the house in a couple hours, claims she's worked longer and won't even move an item to dust around it. Her new house keeper is a legal immigrant, Mexican, came and scrubbed the house in half the time and it SHINES. So I understand that. I also understand large agriculture needing immigrant/migrant workers. We DO need people starting at the bottom and working their way to the top. Around here we have PLENTY of good teenage farm help, used to have more but then they passed the legal working age of 16. 13-15 year olds can pick blueberries just fine, I did. But now you can't hire them.

As far as the economics and the regulations of conducting business across borders/overseas. YEAH, there is a MAJOR problem and I don't want that mess here any more than anyone else. My mom works for a supplier to WM. She has to go inspect product and factories overseas. She's sick for two weeks when she comes back. I've heard all the truths of the working conditions and pollution over there.
BUT, you also have to figure in that we have THE HIGHEST CORPORATE TAX RATE in the world. We have unions that add to already existing, regulations, requirements, and demands that they don't have to mess with over there. The FACT that we can ship say, cotton, over to China, have it turned into stupid t-shirts and then shipped BACK cheaper than we can produce it here is absurd.


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## Allison Finch

We don't have the *highest* CORPORATE tax rate, Japan does. And there are several countries whose corporate rates are about equal to ours.


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## Lockwood

On my way to the kitchen for a third bowl of popcorn and just have to comment about one thing…. 

Cherie is spot on, especially about the migratory workers and how they work and follow the harvest patterns.
I have lived all over the US and many of those places were in high fruit and produce producing areas. In those areas Mexicans have a high reputation of being dependable, reliable, and hard working. Far better than the “regular” folk. 

Many many of the jobs surrounding those products cannot be done by machines (as Cherie mentioned) and the same goes in the packing plants where visual inspection and manual sorting are a must
Most, if not all of the local citizens just will not do the jobs. 

And as for the hay crop… 
I grew up on a 1500 acre farm that raised (mostly) cattle and produced all it’s own feed and hay. I’ve thrown thousands of bales of hay in my youth too, as did all the kids in that area whether they lived on a farm or not. (Kids being anyone under the age of 20) It was a way of life because there were no migratory/illegal/undocumented/whatever one wants to call them.

Right now I live in a mostly cash crop area and we are about 99% legal citizens here. Most of the orchards, produce, and afore mentioned type of farming where hands and eyes are needed are going under because unless you are Amish or Mennonite with oodles of relatives to help pick, sort, and pack you just will not survive. 

Same with many of the dairy farms too, unless you switch to all machine harvested cash crops like the grains. I’m heavily involved in the sustainable farm movement so my info is first hand from the hundreds of farms or failing farms I come into contact with. The few that are still doing well are the ones with a whole lotta family members to do the work or the ones who can find super cheap labor.
In this area that equates to hiring the Amish kids if they aren‘t helping their own families first, and they are in high demand. 
Most of the other farms have gone under or are trying really hard to invent a niche market for themselves before all is lost.

I digressed, back to the hay…
There is not a HS kid, young man, or even just any man (or strong woman) to be found to help pick up hay. None. They won‘t do it.
Around here farmers offer a $0.25 to $0.50 discount per bale if you go pick it up out of their fields yourself because they can’t find or hire anyone to help them either.

Something Allison touched on about regulations….
May mean nothing to some people, but in our lives regulations have a fairly big impact…
I can’t or won’t buy produce (and now many regular food products) from most other countries because their regulations governing the use of chemicals/GMO’s/processing procedures etc…are not as stringent as ours, which aren’t all that good either.
These things directly affect the health of my child. 

Kind scary to think that the use of “such and such” chemical is supposed to be forbidden here, but we have no problem importing food from somewhere else where that chemical use is the norm. 
I’m also old enough to remember when our rivers used to burn from pollution.
No, I definitely don’t want de-regulation here, thank you very much.

… back to munchin’ popcorn…


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## Missy May

Cherie said:


> It is just not that simple. Again, I suppose it is difficult for people that have not been involved with harvests and farm labor to understand.
> 
> .


 
If people hire illegals - that is a pretty straight forward concept. It means they don't hire citizens. It is to their advantage for a host of reasons, it is not b/c citizens will not do the work. To repeat, ag migrant workers use to be nearly all legal immigrants and US citizens - and all produce, grains, and softs were cheaper than they are today. But, lets just say that that theory that only illegals will work is the absolute truth - that would necessarily mean all Mexican citizens that are here legally will not work a lick. 

After the civil war, massive numbers of producing farm acres laid fallow. But, oddly, they did not lay fallow for decades or even _years_. Did this interuption in crop production prove slavery is a good thing and a model of how it should be done, or is it an example of what WILL happen if allowed? And, when one's illegal source of labor is interupted or removed, does that mean there is no alternate source? Or, does it mean there is period of interuption due to the fact they had no "other" plan. The South's productivity would have not been nearly as interupted had it been given the choice to own and use slaves, or hire whites.

Interesting that you mention Oklahoma. I use to have 2 white, younger men buck hay for me on occasion. They were brothers from OK . If anyone could outwork those two, I'd sure like to see it. After getting to know them, I found out they had no family in the area I was then living in, which was states away from OK. They had come to an Ag area to find work b/c they couldn't find any in OK. Now I know why.


----------



## Faceman

FlyGap said:


> Cherie, I agree that immigrant workers are necessary for our economy.


Immigrant workers aren't necessary for our economy at the current time. Those jobs should be reserved for people that are too darn lazy to work. They should be forced to work for their government checks. I get so disgusted over the millions of people that supposedly can't get jobs and are drawing unemployment and other aid, when there are all kinds of jobs around where the only requirement is to be breathing and show up. After a few years they will get the hint, get better jobs, and THEN we will have a need for immigrant workers.

And as you say, that need is for immigrant workers...NOT illegal immigrant workers.

I admire the unskilled laborers from Mexico that work their butts off in the heat of summer...they certainly have more moxie than our own out-of-work losers that lay around getting fat watching TV while they collect their checks. But I do, and always will, make that distinction between legal and illegal...


----------



## FlyGap

You are right Allison, we are second to Japan. Even when you add state taxes in.
My bad. Our estimated average rate is 39.2%, Japans is 39.5%. They were planning on lowering it buy 5% before the tsunami. Mexico is 28%. That's a pretty large difference.
Of course this is what I drudged up from the internet and I'm no economic guru.


----------



## Missy May

Allison Finch said:


> They are down there for more reasons than cheap labor. There are fewer regulations down there that keep them from fouling the water and air, that keep them from putting children at hard labor, that make them provide safe work environments etc etc etc.
> 
> I keep hearing conservative candidates saying we need to get rid of restrictive regulations here, too. Over my dead body!! Oh, wait...if I have to breathe the resultant air and drink the water, that may be reality.
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious. Are you willing to go back to the days of opaque air and water that you can set fire to? I think our regulations REQUIRING the companies to look after the environment is worth the extra money I pay for the products.
> 
> 
> 
> When we take over Mexico, we won't need to worry about the borders. They will all be Americans, right? I guess we have to conquer all the way to the tip of Patagonia to not have to worry about pesky borders.
> 
> As for our helping Iraq, you really think our oil reserves top theirs? Libya has something we will never have. The best "light sweet crude" which is found in precious few areas of the world. We would love for Libya to feel indebted enough to us to offer us a good supply of that. If Syria had such nice oil reserves as Iraq, we may be helping the insurgents there more. I guess we really have learned a lesson from the "Arab Spring". The governments that replace the old regimes, are no sure bet that they will be nicer to us.


Nope, I am all FOR environmental regulation, protection and management. But, I guess I misunderstood your comments to mean that the US, by nature and b/c it is evil, has less environmental protection controls that Mexico - so if the US, in some fantasy, took Mexico then the Mexican environment would suffer.

I am not sure how many times you have traveled to Mexico in your life. It is NOT foreign companies that cause insult to their environment, i.e., you can't blame it on the US. In fact, most US companies, until relatively recently, were gun shy of even setting up shop in Mexico due to the history of such ventures. 

As for corporations, the Chinese have no lack of cheap labor and aren't world renowned for their environmental management. Besides, Viet Nam has next to none...so why would they bother with "escaping environmental laws" in Mexico? Most US companies have a Chinese investment, so - ditto. 

As for regulations - I am a firm believer in necessary and constitutional regulations and the process by which they are enacted, including those that prohibit illegal entry into the US. 

As for Iraq, huh?


----------



## FlyGap

Faceman said:


> Immigrant workers aren't necessary for our economy at the current time. Those jobs should be reserved for people that are too darn lazy to work. They should be forced to work for their government checks. I get so disgusted over the millions of people that supposedly can't get jobs and are drawing unemployment and other aid, when there are all kinds of jobs around where the only requirement is to be breathing and show up. After a few years they will get the hint, get better jobs, and THEN we will have a need for immigrant workers.
> 
> And as you say, that need is for immigrant workers...NOT illegal immigrant workers.
> 
> I admire the unskilled laborers from Mexico that work their butts off in the heat of summer...they certainly have more moxie than our own out-of-work losers that lay around getting fat watching TV while they collect their checks. But I do, and always will, make that distinction between legal and illegal...


I agree 1,000% IF the gov would QUIT handing out checks then they would do this kind of work. Like I said before most of my family started out in chicken plucking factories, TYSON. Then the illegals came in and they lowered the pay, and then welfare comes into play. Why work when you can have it handed to you. *YOU* know how I feel about "welfare"! It's "good for nothin fare"! In most cases.

I said:
"If they come here legally, not because it's easier/cheaper/faster to walk across the border."


----------



## Missy May

Cherie said:


> Gee Missy -- I do not even know where to start. Almost everything you said is so inaccurate that it is plain that you do not know what you do not know.
> 
> We have to handle nothing but big round bales (a real PITA) because for the last 15 years there have been ZERO HS boys that will go out in the heat and pick up a single square bale of hay. I picked up thousands of them when I was a kid and husband and I used to haul in hay by hand until we could no longer do it.
> 
> We know many farmers that have spent thousands of dollars on advertising and got few or no applicants and most could not pass a drug screen or had a history of steeling. I guess in all of your wisdom, you have not run into the High Plains Journal. There are pages of high priced ads for farm help in there every single week -- thousands of unfilled high paying jobs. I do not know any farmer who would not hire American help in a heartbeat -- there just are no men wanting the jobs.
> 
> As for machinery -- most vegetable crops and tree crops like peaches and apricots and cherries cannot be machine picked. They damage the trees and plants and cannot pick the right tomato or berries. Vineyards are the same. Human eyes and hands are necessary .
> 
> And nobody hires Mexicans because they want them to have a better life. They hire them because they are hard-working, dependable and are good help and they NEED them.
> 
> Oh heck -- this is a waste of time.


 
Well, GEE Cherie....this will ROCK the futures market tommorrow, when will you advise them? You know, advise them that the largest percentage of crops grown in the US are hand picked??? I will have to concede if I read it in the financials tomorrow.

I guess in all your wisdom, when you go to a horse race you conclude that the horses and pony horses in the race are the only horses on the planet? 

Here is a info you can _use_!!! Square bale retrievers...lots of people own that machinery for their own use and contract it out, or just contract it out. Pretty simple, pretty fast....and WAYYYY cheaper than having it bucked from the field. Hope that helps!


----------



## FlyGap

Lockwood I do the same. Just came in from the garden and hauled in the last of the squash, tomatoes on the way and getting ready to can gallons of pasta sauce! I need RAIN!
Now if more Americans would garden...


----------



## Lockwood

Missy May said:


> Here is a info you can _use_!!! Square bale retrievers...lots of people own that machinery for their own use and contract it out, or just contract it out. Pretty simple, pretty fast....and WAYYYY cheaper than having it bucked from the field. Hope that helps!


You're funny!
Around here there is no contracting out of that type of equipment, that would take some trust (or a contract.)
Heck, when one showed up at a local farm show, the comments were, “What is it?“ and “Sure wish my farm could afford one of those.”
Then again with all the drought laden farms needing hay and all the hay brokers coming here to buy the hay, maybe the farmers will turn enough profit to actually afford something like that. I mean the price of hay here is outrageous because there is none to be had unless it is reserved months to a year in advanced.


----------



## Lockwood

FlyGap said:


> Lockwood I do the same. Just came in from the garden and hauled in the last of the squash, tomatoes on the way and getting ready to can gallons of pasta sauce! I need RAIN!
> Now if more Americans would garden...


You have SQUASH and TOMS already?? 
Sheesh. < lockwood is green>

Yep, we need more gardens!
(and rain)


----------



## FlyGap

Well, we had squash and zucchini. It's gone now, picked the last basket full.
Waiting till July and I'll put more in. We had 20 plants! Put up half a freezer full, still have about 40-50 lbs to process.
Picked the first ripe tomato TODAY! 30 plants, should be enough for an army!
Corn looks TERRIBLE! Green beans are going to fill the kitchen, onions about done, carrots on their way, and I got to keep my itchy fingers outta the potatoes!

I'll go start a gardening thread in the farm section and we need to post photos!


----------



## Missy May

FlyGap said:


> Well, we had squash and zucchini. It's gone now, picked the last basket full.
> Waiting till July and I'll put more in. We had 20 plants! Put up half a freezer full, still have about 40-50 lbs to process.
> Picked the first ripe tomato TODAY! 30 plants, should be enough for an army!
> Corn looks TERRIBLE! Green beans are going to fill the kitchen, onions about done, carrots on their way, and I got to keep my itchy fingers outta the potatoes!
> 
> I'll go start a gardening thread in the farm section and we need to post photos!


Yeah, do! If anything else, its encouraging!  I can grow most anything in a raised bed (to rocky to try it otherwise) - but the rabbits are a force to be reckoned with. Probably illegal bunnies - no respect for a garden border!  So, I stick to what they will not destroy - potatoes, caged tomatoes and chili peppers.


----------



## FlyGap

Missy May said:


> Probably illegal bunnies - no respect for a garden border!  So, I stick to what they will not destroy - potatoes, caged tomatoes and chili peppers.


I LAUGHED SOOOOO HARD!!:rofl:
Pictures taken! On my way!


----------



## Lockwood

Missy May said:


> Yeah, do! If anything else, its encouraging!  I can grow most anything in a raised bed (to rocky to try it otherwise) - but the rabbits are a force to be reckoned with. Probably illegal bunnies - no respect for a garden border!  So, I stick to what they will not destroy - potatoes, caged tomatoes and chili peppers.


I have a very healthy, and perfectly legal, family here too. They have been living here since Buck was a calf... 
Chicken wire my friend, chicken wire.

I'll stop by the new thread this evening after I get some pics.


----------



## Missy May

Lockwood said:


> You're funny!
> Around here there is no contracting out of that type of equipment, that would take some trust (or a contract.)
> Heck, when one showed up at a local farm show, the comments were, “What is it?“ and “Sure wish my farm could afford one of those.”
> Then again with all the drought laden farms needing hay and all the hay brokers coming here to buy the hay, maybe the farmers will turn enough profit to actually afford something like that. I mean the price of hay here is outrageous because there is none to be had unless it is reserved months to a year in advanced.


Okay, well since you wouldn't share your popcorn, I don't feel sorry for you. 
That is strange that there is none available to you. I admit, I have grown hay in areas where hay is produced in mass - so the demand was there. But, I have also lived in areas in CA where people earn a living contracting their equipment to simply cut, bale and remove "wild" grasses off of 10-50 acre ranchetes -not for livestock, but for the express reason of removing the grasses that are _extremely_ nasty and dangerous to dogs, horses and cattle...and people, for that matter. You would think someone in your area would "break into the business".

I have also contracted various pieces of equipment many times...its a great trade off - you don't have to purchase the insanely expensive equipment for a specific job, and the contractor has a "niche".


----------



## Faceman

Missy May said:


> Probably illegal bunnies - no respect for a garden border!


In deference to db, I suggest we refer to them as undocumented bunnies...


----------



## dbarabians

Faceman, my fathers family has owned our place near Paris Texas since the 1830's not for 50 years.
However I am still looking for all the Parisian landmarks.
I was listening to the presidents speech about immigration. I mostly concur with him.
Rubio also stated that if he were not a citizen of the US he would come here illegally.
Nothing conclusive is going to be done about this issue until after the election.
Both parties then will still be wary of alienating the hispanic vote for future elections.That is indeed pandering for votes but it is also political survival. Both parties are guilty.
Cherie you took the words right out of my mouth. Shalom


----------



## Horse Poor

FWIW, I lived 10 years in Northeastern Montana - where wheat is king and cattle outnumber people more than 10 to 1. There EVERYTHING having to do with wheat is done with machinery - from the turning of the soil, to air seeding, to the application of chemicals, to using a combine harvester, to the trucks that take it to the grain bins for drying and storage. The same goes for other grain products such as field peas, soybean, oats, rice and field corn. Our "migrant workers" were certainly not uneducated illegal Mexicans, but highly skilled trained operators of massive computerized $500,000+ machines contracted to work through legitimate companies used by grain growers nationwide. 

There is no INS - hasn't been since 2003. 

To me, immigration is like medicine where dosage and quality matter. Too little is ineffective, too much a poison and if obtained illegally, can have unpredictable and unintended long lasting consequences.


----------



## Missy May

Lockwood said:


> I have a very healthy, and perfectly legal, family here too. They have been living here since Buck was a calf...
> Chicken wire my friend, chicken wire.
> 
> I'll stop by the new thread this evening after I get some pics.


Haha...chicken wire is for chickens. The rabbits here are tough as nails...they eat cactus and spit fire. They will find a way. And, if they don't wipe it out...the quail and thrashers will. Odd as it seems. THe quail wallow in the dirt, and the thrashers - thrash and wipe out the seedlings.  For some reason they will not get into a trough - which I have used in the past to grow stuff w great success.


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## dbarabians

Missy May for some reason after reading your post I keep picturing a jackalope.
Hey at least the things eating your garden are cute.
We have millions of grasshoppers this year.
It looks as if the ground is moving when you walk . Shalom


----------



## Lockwood

Missy May said:


> Okay, well since you wouldn't share your popcorn, I don't feel sorry for you.
> That is strange that there is none available to you. I admit, I have grown hay in areas where hay is produced in mass - so the demand was there. But, I have also lived in areas in CA where people earn a living contracting their equipment to simply cut, bale and remove "wild" grasses off of 10-50 acre ranchetes -not for livestock, but for the express reason of removing the grasses that are _extremely_ nasty and dangerous to dogs, horses and cattle...and people, for that matter. You would think someone in your area would "break into the business".
> 
> I have also contracted various pieces of equipment many times...its a great trade off - you don't have to purchase the insanely expensive equipment for a specific job, and the contractor has a "niche".


Yeah, the popcorn was good. Kettle corn sprinkled with parmesan.. salty, sweet, and tangy! Too bad I didn't save any for you :twisted:.

The ag here is what I call little ag, as opposed to big ag like what you are probably thinking.
Little describes the thinking as well as the overall ag impact. And while I haven't live in CA, OR is home and the folks in CA just think quite a bit differently about ag (and a whole lot of other things) than the mid-atlantic region. 
For example, the mindset and functioning of the farmers where I live now haven't changed nearly as much as they have elsewhere. Take a snapshot of ag here today, and it still looks very similar to the 60's and 70's (scary similar) with the exception of a few new animal types at the local fairs.

And yes, one would think somebody would have broken into the niche market like you describe except that it would take some forward, or progressive thinking and those are dirty words here.

Our local ag extension office does actually have a no-till seed drill for rent.
Cheap too. I inquired about using it to plant my back fourty and was surprised to learn that it just sits there and no one from the local area uses it. It's just too foreign to them.

Other places I have lived and been exposed to farming or ag are far more advanced than here. 
Much of the regular farming equipment doesn't come fancy or new from the dealer. No one can afford it, so it is picked up at one of the many auctions that are so prevalent.
I'm pretty sure that new fangled bale retriever and stacker won't be seen at an auction here for at least another 15 to 20 years, if then.

Now east of Harrisburg is like a whole other planet, aside from the Amish pockets.
It's frustrating.


----------



## Missy May

Actually, Lockwood, it sounds like a lovely place to live...kind of nostagic. Probably a lot of useful information from the them their farmers. 
I have noticed that the more advanced and readily available machinery gets in an area, the more "handed down" info and practices get lost. For example, areas w more advanced machinery seem to stop cutting back and keeping up the banks. That may seem of zero importance, but it not only looks bad - it presents huge "weed threat" - which is why the old timers kept them up in the first place. Its as if some areas have to go through the entire empirical knowledge collection/learning cycle - again. Its little stuff like that makes the difference in how "pleasant" a farming community is to be in, imo.


----------



## dbarabians

Missy May, when I was a boy the farmers used to trade labor and equipment all the time.
I live near a small town of about 600 people most of the locals are related to me.
Since my family has been here for a long time we are related to each other somehow. As families grow and the land is sold or divided we are losing the sense of community slowly.
It is also a matter of prestige around here to have the biggest, best , and newest equipment.
The farmers still use mostly local teenage boys to do most of the farm labor around here but that is changing.
More and more undocumented workers are being hired.
With the town of Paris being 22 miles away we are seeing lots of young men without summer or part time jobs.
Most of them work for their families not other people. Shalom


----------



## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> Missy May, when I was a boy the farmers used to trade labor and equipment all the time.
> I live near a small town of about 600 people most of the locals are related to me.
> Since my family has been here for a long time we are related to each other somehow. As families grow and the land is sold or divided we are losing the sense of community slowly.
> It is also a matter of prestige around here to have the biggest, best , and newest equipment.
> The farmers still use mostly local teenage boys to do most of the farm labor around here but that is changing.
> More and more undocumented workers are being hired.
> With the town of Paris being 22 miles away we are seeing lots of young men without summer or part time jobs.
> Most of them work for their families not other people. Shalom


Yeah, when I was a kid a lot of us did farm work in the summertime to earn money, with haying being the primary work. We would all pile into an old junker car and drive as far as 50 miles to work. The work was hard, but if you were in sports it was good conditioning. Without wanting to appear critical, most kids today would croak off doing that kind of work - if you could pry their lazy butts away from their computer games, of course. It's just another manifestation of the folly of there not being work available. There is lots of work - just not many workers...


----------



## Lockwood

Missy May said:


> Actually, Lockwood, it sounds like a lovely place to live...kind of nostagic. Probably a lot of useful information from the them their farmers.
> I have noticed that the more advanced and readily available machinery gets in an area, the more "handed down" info and practices get lost. For example, areas w more advanced machinery seem to stop cutting back and keeping up the banks. That may seem of zero importance, but it not only looks bad - it presents huge "weed threat" - which is why the old timers kept them up in the first place. Its as if some areas have to go through the entire empirical knowledge collection/learning cycle - again. Its little stuff like that makes the difference in how "pleasant" a farming community is to be in, imo.


It is and it isn't. In the interest of not hijacking the thread any further away from the OP or boring anyone else, I sent a response to you via PM.
It's friendly... no bombs attached. 
No popcorn either. :wink:


----------



## SouthernTrails

Bobby Lee said:


> Wow!!!
> You are all immigrants, right?


Don't know everyone on this Forum, but I would guess 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% are Legal 



.


----------



## SouthernTrails

dbarabians said:


> *Undocumented workers pay taxes that are withheld from their checks and on everything they purchase.
> This more than offsets any cost the governments bears. They pay with cash too and have helped keep our econonmy recovering by purchasing lots of consumer goods.*
> The free clinics here get no grants that I know of but I will look into getting a few friends together to see if we can.
> Most of the ones that I know that operate around here the DRs donate their time. Thanks for the idea.
> Not paying out of state tutition does not equate to a free education.
> Missy May Mexico is experiencing a brutal drug war that has claimed 50,000 lives.
> If the government can't control the Cartels even with that loss of life do you think that they are concerned with equality at the polls?
> I have visited the interior of Mexico several times in my life.
> Lives for those at the bottom of the ladder have not changed much in the last 70 years.
> That , the drug war, and US employers that exploit cheap labour are the reasons people flee to this country.
> If anyone thinks that you can deport them all you are not thinking rationally.
> If you cannot see how immigrants impact this country in a positive way you have allowed your negative feelings on this subject to cloud your reasoning. Shalom


Complete and utter baloney, *Let's Invite 50 million more illegals into this Country so we can fix our Economy* with your nonsense...... 

How many undocumented workers are paid with a Company Issued Checks to have Taxes taken out? 

You sound like Nancy Pelosi, it is good for the Economy to pay people un-emplyment because they pay taxes on a purchase, what?

Do some people even think about what they are saying?


.


----------



## SouthernTrails

kitten_Val said:


> I thought it was Clinton, not Bush. Could be wrong though.


It was Reagan and he did it when the Economy was good and un-employment was like 4.5%

A little different than doing it when Obama did, Plus Regan did it thru
proper channels.


.


----------



## SouthernTrails

Faceman said:


> Immigrant workers aren't necessary for our economy at the current time. Those jobs should be reserved for people that are too darn lazy to work. *They should be forced to work for their government checks. I get so disgusted over the millions of people that supposedly can't get jobs and are drawing unemployment and other aid, when there are all kinds of jobs around where the only requirement is to be breathing and show up*. After a few years they will get the hint, get better jobs, and THEN we will have a need for immigrant workers.
> 
> And as you say, that need is for immigrant workers...NOT illegal immigrant workers.
> 
> I admire the unskilled laborers from Mexico that work their butts off in the heat of summer...they certainly have more moxie than our own out-of-work losers that lay around getting fat watching TV while they collect their checks. But I do, and always will, make that distinction between legal and illegal...


100% agree, if you are *Able Bodied* you should do some kind of work for Tax Money you receive, even if it is picking up trash in your local Park.

I have known to many people on UI that have turned down jobs because they only pay 50.00 more a week than getting the Government Check, makes me sick and yes I told every one of them to their face they were scum for milking the system, 2 of the 4 are stiil my friends, they knew they were wrong ...lol...

.


----------



## northwesten

gunslinger said:


> November approaches.
> 
> Vote the fool out and lets move on.


You guys vote him out but all you guys will do vote another fool in!


----------



## dbarabians

Southern Trails everyone one of the undocumented workers that work at a fast food place. Tyson and Pilgrims Pride. Walmart. Most national hotel chains.
Need I go on? All are paid with a company check. Taxes are withheld.
They also pay sales tax when the purchase anything and they pay cash to do so.
That is much better for our econonmy than people using credit cards.
If you do not want to look at the whole picture that is your choice.
I know more than a few undocumented workers.
I sometimes cash their checks for them so before they open bank accounts.
I know of what I speak. Shalom


----------



## northwesten

dbarabians said:


> Southern Trails everyone one of the undocumented workers that work at a fast food place. Tyson and Pilgrims Pride. Walmart. Most national hotel chains.
> Need I go on? All are paid with a company check. Taxes are withheld.
> They also pay sales tax when the purchase anything and they pay cash to do so.
> That is much better for our econonmy than people using credit cards.
> If you do not want to look at the whole picture that is your choice.
> I know more than a few undocumented workers.
> I sometimes cash their checks for them so before they open bank accounts.
> I know of what I speak. Shalom


As I am a legal alien in the US for a company like Walmart I like to know what state they hire illegals? Because bound by US federal law they have to be legal to work in the US. Their for they have to provide documents to show they are allowed to work in the US.


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## Missy May

Walmart manufactures nothing of which I am aware. With their buying power they can get the lowest price on produce - from tiny growers, ya think? No, they were born on sustained supply. The larger the grower you are, and the cheaper the labor (e.g., illegal aliens) - the higher the probability you will contract and keep your contract w wally land. Not to mention any other contractors they hire, or the construction of their store and storage buildings.

Bound by US law? I think you missed the "illegal" part of "illegal alien" discussion, which doesn't pertain to legal entrants. But, it would pertain to illegal aliens w falsified documents.


----------



## dbarabians

Undocumented workers in Texas and other states can get a drivers license.
They can open up bank accounts. If they can do those things they have some form of ID.
How they do it I do not know.
Like Missy May said employers will hire whoever they can at the cheapest possible rates.
That is the problem with the immigration issue.
Employers who hire undocumented workers have very little to fear of being prosecuted.
At the most they will get a fine. 
The cost of which will be passed onto consumers


----------



## northwesten

Missy May said:


> Walmart manufactures nothing of which I am aware. With their buying power they can get the lowest price on produce - from tiny growers, ya think? No, they were born on sustained supply. The larger the grower you are, and the cheaper the labor (e.g., illegal aliens) - the higher the probability you will contract and keep your contract w wally land. Not to mention any other contractors they hire, or the construction of their store and storage buildings.
> 
> Bound by US law? I think you missed the "illegal" part of "illegal alien" discussion, which doesn't pertain to legal entrants. But, it would pertain to illegal aliens w falsified documents.


re read what I said! Walmart can not hire illegals! What sub contractors and who they get for supplying is a different business and not an issue with walmart. So if builder hiring illegals then got nothing to do with Walmart. 

If the State of Texas can give out Driving license and open up banks etc Something not right. To gain a State ID you need documents to say your legal here in US. Birth certificate or immigration papers with out this then you will not get ID's and there for can not prove your legal to work. 

If they have all this and illegal then something not right. Also Walmart does good background checks too.


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## dbarabians

Northwestern like I have posted the issue is pretty much ignored by both the State of Texas and most employers.
You can buy a car without a DL or Social Security # and get insurance.
There are plenty of advertisements for such things in local newspapers.
Remember immigration is up to the Federal Government not the states.
If you go to any major Texas city there are malls that cater to immigrants.
Those malls are packed and the stores are thriving.
The cities and the State of Texas are more than willing to look the other way and collect the sales tax. Shalom


----------



## Horse Poor

Personally, I'm wondering how anyone knows if the person carrying their bags, serving their food, roofing their house or running the register is working there legally and who isn't. One of the biggest problems I see in all of this is fraudulent documentation. HR departments are not trained to identify fraud docs, nor should doing so be part of their job description. What do you think would happen if a company failed to consider an applicant because they thought the applicant's documentation was fake, and wasn't? Can we say lawsuit? Discrimination? Racism? Profiling? Companies are not, and should not, be enforcers of FEDERAL LAW! If the Govt was doing their job, there would be no problem with companies wittingly or unwittingly hiring illegals as there would be no illegals in the country to hire.


----------



## northwesten

Horse Poor said:


> Personally, I'm wondering how anyone knows if the person carrying their bags, serving their food, roofing their house or running the register is working there legally and who isn't. One of the biggest problems I see in all of this is fraudulent documentation. HR departments are not trained to identify fraud docs, nor should doing so be part of their job description. What do you think would happen if a company failed to consider an applicant because they thought the applicant's documentation was fake, and wasn't? Can we say lawsuit? Discrimination? Racism? Profiling? Companies are not, and should not, be enforcers of FEDERAL LAW! If the Govt was doing their job, there would be no problem with companies wittingly or unwittingly hiring illegals as there would be no illegals in the country to hire.


Not really but they are resources for some corporation to have company's to do background checks. Small business would be an issue as they will not have that kinda of resources. Federal Government can go only so far but State could do a lot to make sure information right as possible. I think the State + Federal government is too complexes and small business can only do so much!


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## Missy May

Faceman said:


> Yeah, when I was a kid a lot of us did farm work in the summertime to earn money, with haying being the primary work. We would all pile into an old junker car and drive as far as 50 miles to work. The work was hard, but if you were in sports it was good conditioning. Without wanting to appear critical, most kids today would croak off doing that kind of work - if you could pry their lazy butts away from their computer games, of course. It's just another manifestation of the folly of there not being work available. There is lots of work - just not many workers...


I don't know,faceman, I hear people say this about "most kids these days" on a frequent basis. It is just _not_ my experience, and never has been. In fact, recently I volunteered to do all day outside work in the heat for a neighbor that was in real need of help. Well, two high school boys offered to do it for me! Although I declined, I was impressed. And, high school kids _volunteer_ to pick the weeds at the animal sanctuary here. 

I once showed a 14 year old _boy _how to use a shovel. At first, I thought he was being sarcastic - when he indicated he didn't know how to use one and wanted to learn. Once I grasped he was serious and got over my shock....I showed him, let him do a little job...and he really wanted to do more, but I had no need. He was an extremely talented kid - gamer, yes, and an incredible musician, and academically he could blow your mind! With no exposure to "hard work" - how would kids get the opportunity? Think about it, how would a non-farm, english speaking kid "network" themselves into a farm job?

Like you, I lived in Germany when I was a kid. I didn't like it much. But, the kids were all super nice and I ended up picking grapes w them for pay. I originally misunderstood the initial trip to the vinyard as a sort of "collective outing - field trip". But, I caught on - and kept going! In the US, you would never get away with picking up a bunch of town dwelling school kids and paying them to pick anything. Pick up a bunch of illegals in front of Home Depot - no problem. So, the kids play games or do volunteer work - who wouldn't??


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## Missy May

northwesten said:


> Not really but they are resources for some corporation to have company's to do background checks. Small business would be an issue as they will not have that kinda of resources. Federal Government can go only so far but State could do a lot to make sure information right as possible. I think the State + Federal government is too complexes and small business can only do so much!


I realize you are not familiar w US and state laws...but there is a state called AZ, it is rather large and hard to miss. It's current status w respect to illegal aliens should explain everything.


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## dbarabians

Missy May I hate to admit this but you would probably have to show me how to use a shovel also.
I am far from lazy just have never had to do manual labour like that.
Now I will clean stalls and anything else to do with the horses or other livestock.
In fact when I do try the guys always make a bee line to do things before I make the problem worse.
I have hauled hay for my family but never for others.
We used to bale both round and square bales but it became almost impossible in the last 10 years to get extra help to get those bales into the barn.
There are not that many teenagers available for hire like there used to be for farm jobs. Shalom


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## Missy May

dbarabians said:


> Missy May I hate to admit this but you would probably have to show me how to use a shovel also.
> I am far from lazy just have never had to do manual labour like that.
> Now I will clean stalls and anything else to do with the horses or other livestock.
> In fact when I do try the guys always make a bee line to do things before I make the problem worse.
> I have hauled hay for my family but never for others.
> We used to bale both round and square bales but it became almost impossible in the last 10 years to get extra help to get those bales into the barn.
> There are not that many teenagers available for hire like there used to be for farm jobs. Shalom


Okay, db...its called an elevator...it just pulls those little bales right up to a loft; if you stack under a pole barn - a harrow bed just picks them up from the field and stacks them at programed heights. Round bales? Put a fork in them. I realize some places don't have the mechanization I am use to, but I have lived in TX and they have no shortage. My grand papa had an elevator, forklift, and harrow bed..not like the new computerized ones available today, but still!! If I had ever been asked to help put it up all by hand - every last peice of equipment had better have been broken!

For heaven sakes, invest in a crow bar and pry your wallet open and buy a piece of last century's equipment!


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## Lakotababii

So I've been reading a little bit on this thread, I find it interesting.

I've seen a few comments, not sure who said them, but nonetheless I would like to respond.
*
1. Illegals do the work that Americans will not. *
-This one I guess I can kind of see, as many Mexican workers I have met are incredibly hard-working. The most experience I have with them is through my husband, who worked as a landscaper alongside these workers. He said that, in fact many of them were hardworking, and it was easier for his boss to hire them than any other type of American worker because they were willing to do just about anything. But then again, my husband worked next to them, just as long and as hard as they did, for the same amount of pay, which was not bad pay at all, especially considering overtime. They were 60-70 hour workweeks, with Sunday being the only day they got off, unless it was raining. Hard work? Absolutely, but my husband did it no different than them because he was motivated. So saying that Americans won't work for it is not true, because there are those who will do anything to keep their families fed. We still have hardworking people in this country, but you don't hear about them much because they are, well, hardworking and don't cause ruckus. 

*2. Illegal immigrants don't use entitlement programs and the like.*
- hahaha. Not true. Same workers that my husband worked with were on food stamps, and other similar programs. They also got paid unemployment when they were laid off. They proceeded to tell my husband how easy it is to get a fake SS number, it only costs about $35 and a man in town did it for them. Go figure. They also told my husband that some of them use their kids SS numbers, if they have a child that is a citizen. This also brings up the issue of whose numbers are they using?

*3. Workers who work illegally don't make money like Americans do.*
This one may be true of farming workers, but not all illegal immigrants work for farmers. The landscaper paid at least $10 an hour for his crew, with supervisors, of which one was an illegal worker, paid more. That's higher than minimum wage, and a decent living, especially when you add in the entitlement programs. Restaurant workers are required to be paid the same as everyone else as well, illegal or not. They get paid quite decently, as I have worked with many of them, some of them making more than me since at the time I was just a teenager.


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## stephshark

The key word here is ILLEGAL. As in, " against the law". If someone wants to come to the US in hopes of providing a better life for themselves and their family and follow all the necessary requirements, I respect that and commend them for doing so. However, when people are sneaking in and hiding out, refusing to get documentation to even prove who they are, don't pay taxes but help themselves to tax funded benefits, and take jobs then send all their money to family in other countries instead of stimulating our economy, it's a slap in the face to not only natural born American citizens, but to all the LEGAL immigrants who did things properly and are following the rules. (for the record I still don't believe Obama is a citizen)


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## Lakotababii

stephshark said:


> (for the record I still don't believe Obama is a citizen)


uh-oh, another can of worms! :hide:

Yeah for the record I am not convinced he is either, not that it's going to do anyone any good at this point. He's proven over and over that he doesn't give a rat's patootie what the constitution says or how things are supposed to work, he just does whatever the hell he wants.


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## northwesten

stephshark said:


> The key word here is ILLEGAL. As in, " against the law". If someone wants to come to the US in hopes of providing a better life for themselves and their family and follow all the necessary requirements, I respect that and commend them for doing so. However, when people are sneaking in and hiding out, refusing to get documentation to even prove who they are, don't pay taxes but help themselves to tax funded benefits, and take jobs then send all their money to family in other countries instead of stimulating our economy, it's a slap in the face to not only natural born American citizens, *but to all the LEGAL immigrants who did things properly and are following the rules. (for the record I still don't believe Obama is a citizen*)


underline this as rages me. I and my wife paid a crap load for me to come to the US! 

To the other poster Illegal immigrants are not entitled to food stamp programs unless the state is doing this. Also EVEN Legal immigrants are not entitled to food stamps as well. I know I can't get it regardless unless I become american.


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## Lakotababii

northwesten said:


> underline this as rages me. I and my wife paid a crap load for me to come to the US!
> 
> To the other poster Illegal immigrants are not entitled to food stamp programs unless the state is doing this. Also EVEN Legal immigrants are not entitled to food stamps as well. I know I can't get it regardless unless I become american.



Your right, legally they are not entitled to food stamps. But then again, they don't care much about being legal do they. They go around it. 

Good for you for coming here the right way! I bet it is a sore subject talking about those who did not come here the right way. Know as Americans that we appreciate that you value what we do, and well, welcome to the US


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## Missy May

northwesten said:


> underline this as rages me. I and my wife paid a crap load for me to come to the US!
> 
> To the other poster Illegal immigrants are not entitled to food stamp programs unless the state is doing this. Also EVEN Legal immigrants are not entitled to food stamps as well. I know I can't get it regardless unless I become american.


I am sure you know exactly how it is all done....come on down to a border state and tell us all about it - we wouldn't have any idea what we are talking about. 

To put this in perspective for ya, it is illegal to not admit an illegal alien into the ER of a public hospital. It is also most public school's unwritten policy to not ask for bc's, or anything else if english doesn't appear to be the parent's "first language"....and they nearly ALL have "free breakfast and lunch" for low income. As absolutely unbelievable as it may sound, the upright outstanding illegal aliens also have nooooo trouble figuring out how to "work the system". If they pop a kid in the US....wala....the kid is eligible for FOOD STAMPS. Ya think the kid is going to go buy the food and be the only one eating it? Oh, and...btw....the amount they recieve is based on income, so illegals tend to get MORE snap b/c their income is lower. Ever notice HOW many kids they have? 

If you are currently a guest in this country - I would advise you to not tell its citizens how wrong they are about the laws that govern it.


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## northwesten

Missy May said:


> I am sure you know exactly how it is all done....come on down to a border state and tell us all about it - we wouldn't have any idea what we are talking about.
> 
> To put this in perspective for ya, it is illegal to not admit an illegal alien into the ER of a public hospital. It is also most public school's unwritten policy to not ask for bc's, or anything else if english doesn't appear to be the parent's "first language"....and they nearly ALL have "free breakfast and lunch" for low income. As absolutely unbelievable as it may sound, the upright outstanding illegal aliens also have nooooo trouble figuring out how to "work the system". If they pop a kid in the US....wala....the kid is eligible for FOOD STAMPS. Ya think the kid is going to go buy the food and be the only one eating it? Oh, and...btw....the amount they recieve is based on income, so illegals tend to get MORE snap b/c their income is lower. Ever notice HOW many kids they have?
> 
> If you are currently a guest in this country - I would advise you to not tell its citizens how wrong they are about the laws that govern it.


*sigh* I not even going to say no more because your not even reading what I AM saying. *facepalm* I know they work around it in some way or from... 

Oh and Legal Alien kinda KNOW these laws because I know where I stand I HAD TO UNDERSTNAD all this crap. So if the illegal getting around it by false documents to pumping out kids. my statement still stands. 

I going to be blunt here but guess or not I will speak my mind as I am here earning like any people and say what I want where my taxes are going. 

ALSO my Wife works in the DHS so I have a far understand about this than you think I do. 

Have a nice day!


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## Missy May

northwesten said:


> *sigh* I not even going to say no more because your not even reading what I AM saying. *facepalm* I know they work around it in some way or from...
> 
> Oh and Legal Alien kinda KNOW these laws because I know where I stand I HAD TO UNDERSTNAD all this crap. So if the illegal getting around it by false documents to pumping out kids. my statement still stands.
> 
> I going to be blunt here but guess or not I will speak my mind as I am here earning like any people and say what I want where my taxes are going.
> 
> ALSO my Wife works in the DHS so I have a far understand about this than you think I do.
> 
> Have a nice day!


Okay, perhaps I misinterpreted your statements above, w emphasis on your use of the word "cannot".


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## crimsonsky

this posted to Slate yesterday and i thought it fit in this thread quite well: 

Obama and the DREAM Act: America needs much bigger, bolder immigration reform. - Slate Magazine


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## stephshark

Well said, Lakotababii. Northwestern, welcome to the US and best of luck to you and your family!


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## wetrain17

Bobby Lee said:


> Wow!!!
> You are all immigrants, right?


 
Um, No. I was born in America, so were my parents, and my grandparents and great grand parents, and thats as far back as I know of my family history. I am not an immigrant.


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## dbarabians

Missy May we have all types of equipment but you still have to manually stack bales in the barn. We also have forks for the round bales too. LOL
Northwestern is right even as a legal guest worker he cannot access any assistance programs.
His children can go to school for free and any born here will be citizens of the USA.
Plus correct me if I am wrong but he will not be able to collect any Social Security retirement that he must pay into.
Northwestern I feel your frustration with the system. Shalom


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## wetrain17

I will say this, if these young adults (of course over 18 because of our system), love this country as much as this article states, then they would do the right thing and apply for a citizenship. And if they pass, I have no problem with them being here. But I'm tired of supporting all the illegal aleins in this country. 

This country is so upside down it makes me sick.

2012=one vote, make it count!


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## Horse Poor

Since I had no clue as to whether or not illegals can draw on SS benefits, I did some checking and found several interesting things…

Here is the Fact Sheet - Mexico Totalization Agreement at
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/media...df#search='Totalization Agreement With Mexico

I do not have time to go into the details, and they are available for you to read for yourself, but the short version of this is if an illegal alien ever gains legal status at any point in time (as in amnesty or a status change), they most certainly WILL BE eligible for Social Security benefits as well as family members. The words "unauthorized immigrants" are what we are talking about as "illegal aliens" or as some prefer "undocumented workers". Additionally, this Totalization Agreement overrides any previous restrictions as indicated in the second of the two paragraphs quoted below and are from the document at the addy I listed. That said, I cannot find the current status of this agreement (2004), so I do not know if it was passed quietly under another name, is waiting to be passed, in some legislative review committee or somewhere else altogether! 

"•	Whether or not a totalization agreement exists, unauthorized immigrants may receive credit toward Social Security for their work, but they cannot collect benefits while living in the United States until they obtain legal resident or U.S. citizen status. In addition, under the Social Security Protection Act of 2004 , a non-citizen whose Social Security Number (SSN) is issued on January 1, 2004 or later must have work authorization at the time the SSN is assigned, or at any later time, to gain insured status under the Social Security program."

...

"•	A totalization agreement overrides benefit restrictions to non-citizen spouses and children. Under current law, non-citizen spouses and children must have lived in the United States for at least 5 years (lawfully or unlawfully), and the family relationship to the worker must have existed during that time in order for them to receive benefits while outside the United States. A totalization agreement overrides this requirement."


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## SouthernTrails

dbarabians said:


> Southern Trails everyone one of the undocumented workers that work at a fast food place. Tyson and Pilgrims Pride. Walmart. Most national hotel chains.
> Need I go on? All are paid with a company check. Taxes are withheld.
> *They also pay sales tax when the purchase anything and they pay cash to do so.*
> That is much better for our econonmy than people using credit cards.
> If you do not want to look at the whole picture that is your choice.
> I know more than a few undocumented workers.
> I sometimes cash their checks for them so before they open bank accounts.
> I know of what I speak. Shalom


It seems Walmart got Fined 11 million for their hiring of Illegals

" March 2005, Wal-Mart, a company with $285 billion in annual sales. was fined $11 million for having untold hundreds of illegal immigrants nationwide clean its stores. "

US Illegal Immigration Explained - Profits and Poverty, Social Security and Starvation

It is Federal Law for an Employer to verify by several means the legitimacy of its workforce 

Penalties For Hiring Illegal Immigrants - NewsOXY

Two Things:

If they made the fines stiffer, maybe this would stop.

If a Honest Law Abiding American know where the illegals are, I think it is their Duty to turn them in, those that just look the other way are not much better then the ones breaking the law, IMO



*"They also pay sales tax when the purchase anything and they pay cash to do so."*

Again, is this your Justification? Are you Serious?

So again I ask, do you think our Economy would be so much better if we just Raised a Sign and said OK Illegals we need help with our Economy why don't another few Million come on into the US.

*"If you do not want to look at the whole picture that is your choice."*

They whole Picture? I am sorry I just cannot see your point, What part of Illegal am I not understanding.

If ignoring the Law and condoning illegal activity is the Big Picture, I want no part of it.



.


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> Undocumented workers in Texas and other states can get a drivers license.
> They can open up bank accounts. If they can do those things they have some form of ID.


To be hired in any place "legally" (by that I mean paying in check, taking taxes, etc.) you must fill the forum I-9 (http://www.uscis.gov/files/form/i-9.pdf). Which means both - employee to be and employer lie on official federal form if they hire illegals. IF the fine would be to hit an employer hard it would never happen (or at least would be happening in much less quantities).

BTW, to the discussion n pages back about seasonal workers... I know that our local agri farm was hiring them legally going through the process of H2. So I still think it should be something that has to be re-considered to be done faster and less painful for both sides (the worker and the business).


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## kitten_Val

northwesten said:


> Also EVEN Legal immigrants are not entitled to food stamps as well. I know I can't get it regardless unless I become american.


It's not quite true. You can't ask for the help while you have a sponsor - this person in principle should pay for you (and even though some manage to sneak around the rule :? ). However as long as you have 40 work credits (10 years of work min) you don't need a sponsor anymore. I think it's even more loose now... (from what I could read just now)

I googled up out of curiosity and here is what comes up:

Benefits - Frequently Asked Questions

http://www.sfhsa.org/asset/BenefitsSFLITE/Food_Stamps_Immigration.pdf


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## Horse Poor

Illegals aren't entitled to public assistance programs, but they do, in fact, receive them.

This is from a NY State Senator's website
What Benefits Can Illegal Aliens Receive? | New York State Senate

"Welfare. Whether illegal aliens can obtain state benefits is not clear-cut. The short answer appears to be that they are not legally entitled to most benefits, but do in fact receive them. "

…

"A fair interpretation of the federal statute and state regulation must result in the conclusion that illegal aliens should not receive any form of state public assistance. However, illegal aliens do, in fact, receive state public benefits. That's because the burden of determining lawful status in the U.S. is on the shoulders of county social services employees who have neither the legal jurisdiction nor the practical ability to determine one's immigration status. Only an immigration official or federal worker whom the Secretary of Homeland Security has authorized may determine the immigration status of a person in the country.  

Typically, any proof an illegal alien provides as evidence of legal status, regardless of its fraudulent nature, will satisfy social services agencies that determine the person's benefit eligibility because an intake clerk simply cannot make the determination that someone is an illegal alien. Therefore, the law is usually overlooked and illegal aliens manage to qualify for state and local benefits."


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## dbarabians

Anyone who cannot see that 14 million people that work and pay in cash are not helping our economy STG you are refusing to see the whole picture.
I do agree with you about that Walmart fine.
It is absolutely ridiculous. The company hardly felt the fine and it definitely was not punished in any way.
Undocumented workers that do not commit serious crimes are a low priority for the government at any level to prosecute.
with 14 million people there is not enough room, manpower, or money to round them up and deport them.
Even if you did what would you do to the millions of children that are born here? Deport US citizens?
Deprieve them of their parents and appoint legal gaurdians?
Make them wards of the state?
That is the underlying issue that prevents those 14 million people from being deported.
Also with the growing hispanic population in this country it would be political suicide for either major party to take a harsh stance on this issue.
Both parties realize that the hispanic vote is going to be really important in the near future. Shalom


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## Horse Poor

And I don't see how 14 million low paid, unskilled, uneducated people cannot be anything but a drain on society…we're not talking about the world's best and brightest here. Look, just because someone WANTS to come here does not ENTITLE them to come here. I am absolutely for deportation - but only after the border is secured. And I don't know where you get the idea that the children will have to stay. Nothing says the children can't go with their parents. Being a US citizen child of an illegal immigrant does not mean that the child has to stay here, only that it cannot be deported…the parents are free to take their children with them.


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## SouthernTrails

.

DB,

Deporting 14 Millions illegals is not my Intent, stopping one more Illegal from entering the US is the BIG PICTURE.

But a little food for thought, we have approximately 13 million un-employed Legal US Citizens, could they not benefit from at least 20% of the 14 million jobs Illegals are taking? Maybe 40%? That is the BIG Picture 

The 3-5 million US citizens that would benefit from those jobs would actually use ALL of their money to help the economy of the USA. 80% of what illegals earn is NOT spent in the US, it is sent back to their Home Country. Surely you have been in the real world long enough to know this and have seen it 1st hand, I have.......

IMO, the anchor baby law needs to be repealed, it is crazy to have a mother from another country run across the border and drop a baby that is automatically a US Citizen, this is absurd and the main cause of our problem now. Then people whine a cry and say deport the mother without her baby? Actually yes, deport them both, this Law is a burden to an already huge problem that has gotten far, far out of control. Tough Love, maybe... but something has to be done or things will only get worse, that is the BIG PICTURE.

Off my rant.... done with this thread 


.


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## northwesten

kitten_Val said:


> It's not quite true. You can't ask for the help while you have a sponsor - this person in principle should pay for you (and even though some manage to sneak around the rule :? ). However as long as you have 40 work credits (10 years of work min) you don't need a sponsor anymore. I think it's even more loose now... (from what I could read just now)
> 
> I googled up out of curiosity and here is what comes up:
> 
> Benefits - Frequently Asked Questions
> 
> http://www.sfhsa.org/asset/BenefitsSFLITE/Food_Stamps_Immigration.pdf


Very interesting.. I was talking with my wife about this so she sent me an email with some info. She knows more than I do to be honest. Which pretty much falls in line with yours. 



> You can inform the readers of this information, as it will help educate them. All too often the general public is misinformed and makes incorrect accusations about the programs that are offered on the Federal and State level. Every State in the Union follows the Federal Guideline policy on Food Supplement Assistance (SNAP) TANF (Cash) assistance. That is because all of these programs are Federally Funded. If the state does not follow the guidelines they are fined by the Federal Government. The Federal Government does not allow for any non-US citizen to receive any welfare program assistance. So basically if you are here illegally or legally, you are still not eligible for ANY welfare assistance so long as you are not a citizen.
> From an immigration standpoint, if someone enters the country illegally, they have no legal claim to welfare programs. One of the requirements for Food Supplement Assistance is proof of residency, Photo ID and to prove they are a US citizen. On occasion their are Migrant workers that come to the US legally to work in the farms. This happens in many states. These individuals are not entitled to any Federal Food Assistance.
> Now some confusion happens when you go from state to state. See each state offers Federal Food. But that individual state may also offer State funded programs. These are NOT governed by the Federal Government. They are created by and funded by the State. So a good example is if a legal immigrant moves to the US and lives in Mass. They will be denied Food Stamps. If they move to Maine, the State of Maine has their own State Food Assistance that the immigrant may apply for and get, so long as they provide the necessary documentation proving they are legally living in the US. We cross check all immigrants with the Department of Homeland Security and we report any illegal immigrants to them as well for deportation. It would be almost impossible for an illegal immigrant to get any food in any state simply because of the strict guidelines. If an illegal immigrant is getting Food Stamps it is only because someone lied and provided false documentation and that is considered an IPV (Intentional Program Violation) also fraud which can result in thousands of dollars of fines, jail time and deportation. I hardly think an illegal immigrant would risk all of that for a measly $200 in Food Stamps. (that is the Federal maximum for one person)
> So bottom line illegal immigrants are not entitled to apply for or receive ANY welfare assistance either Federal or State funded. Legal immigrants are not entitled to apply for or receive ANY Federal funded welfare assistance, but depending on what State they apply in, the State may offer assistance.
> Looking at the Department of Homeland Security, if an immigrant comes over legally on a Fiancé Visa or I-130, it clearly states in the application process that they must have a sponsor that will financially support that individual for 10 years and during that time they are not eligible to receive ANY welfare assistance State of Federal, as if they do then that State or Federal Government can fine the individual. You must have a sponsor and that sponsor must provide income tax records showing they can financially support that individual. So even legal immigrants who MIGHT be eligible to receive STATE welfare, still might not be eligible depending on their immigration Status.
> 
> Hope that helps clarify the Food program. Whoever said illegal’s pop out kids to get more benefits is misinformed and really needs to stop watching Fox news and research their State policy on Welfare before making inaccurate claims. All the information I stated can be found on the Maine.gov site (under MY MAINE CONNECTION) program rules and policy, and all immigration information, including forms and instructions on the forms can be found at Click


Anyhow I off to bed! otherwise I share this 8 hours ago!


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## Missy May

Gee, maybe if whoever's "partner" could stop reading Mao between advertisements, they might notice not everyone shares their love and admiration for TV of any kind. And, they might realize that illegal immigrants with childern do get food stamps, and that the lower the income of any applicant the greater the benefits - which necessarily means??? And, it might occur to them to wonder why people that are illegally in a country would have children in that country when they can't even afford to pay attention. And, whoever's "partner" might be all kinds of familiar w how Mao did it, but here in the US its a little differnt...once anyone is inside the US...they have the "right to free movement" and they can even go to states outside of Maine, Oh my! Or, to someone that forges documents, oh dear! 

Oh, and in someone's "partner's" way of thinking, since it is illegal to enter the US illegally, there is no illegal alien _in_ the US - so, WTF are they talking about? Yeah, this is an expert on all things....maybe they should write Jan Brewer and set her straight, by darn!

I wonder how many people are risking it all and paying thousands to illegally enter China, the second largest economy in the world, and have children there? I don't know, but I am sure "whoever's partner" can fill me in.


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## FlyGap

Good Morning! And RIGHT ON!


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## SHINE LIMITED

Absolutley right on Missy may and all the rest of u stating the facts and living in the real world-not Michael moores Utopia where he thinks Cuba has a great health care plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

Well, look at it this way. If it were as simple as the simplistic minds here would like to have us all think, the previous and present Presidents, Congressmen and Senators, many of whom swore to 'fix' the problem if they were only elected, have done absolutely nothing. 

Once they get into office and are briefed on the full cost and implications and the segments of the economy that would be devastated and the enormity of it all sets in.

While some of these 'workers' are total drains on some segments of the economy, others sustain entire towns and regions that were near death before they came. Our own 'home-grown' 2nd and 3rd generation Welfare leaches drain far more from out economy. While many of the workers are uneducated, most of their children not only graduate but want to go on to college. We personally know at least 20 families and without exception, they are not only productive, pay taxes, buy trucks and homes, they buy everything here in town. They are a huge positive part of our local economy. Towns like Guyman in the OK panhandle have been completely re-born with these laborers when the entire panhandle was almost dead.

NOTHING less than comprehensive immigration reform and a quick and workable guest worker program (the one in place now does NOT work) will ever happen and it will require cooperation from all the members of both parties. That is why all of the elected officials who went into office pounding their chests and claiming they had the answers and would ' fix' it have done what all of those before them did -- nothing.

Only Reagan DID something -- and we all know what that was -- He granted full amnesty to all of the ones working at that time. Had the Conservative Republican god not done this, 10 million more of them would not have been so anxious to get here.


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> Anyone who cannot see that 14 million people that work and pay in cash are not helping our economy STG you are refusing to see the whole picture.


dba, lots of them spend very little and send the major part of the earnings outside the country to support the families left in other countries. Frankly, I fail to see how it helps the economy here in US.


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## kitten_Val

Cherie said:


> others sustain entire towns and regions that were near death before they came.


Cherie, unfortunately it goes other way around too. The small family businesses that run business lawfully often die in regions with lots of illegals. May be it's different in some states, but it definitely is a case in my area.


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## dbarabians

Kitten Val I assure you that though undocumented workers do send a fair portion of their earnings home.
They do indeed purchase luxury items and other things.
Like I posted before there are malls that cater to that population and they are thriving.
Ask anyone that lived on the border of Texas. Before the Cartel wars 1000's crossed daily to shop for electronics and other items no found readily in Mexico.
Here in Texas we have many food stores that serve the Hispanic community. Those chains are growing.
The purchasing power of the hispanic community here in Texas is enormous and stores are geared to the immigrant community. Shalom


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## northwesten

Missy May said:


> Gee, maybe if whoever's "partner" could stop reading Mao between advertisements, they might notice not everyone shares their love and admiration for TV of any kind. And, they might realize that illegal immigrants with childern do get food stamps, and that the lower the income of any applicant the greater the benefits - which necessarily means??? And, it might occur to them to wonder why people that are illegally in a country would have children in that country when they can't even afford to pay attention. And, whoever's "partner" might be all kinds of familiar w how Mao did it, but here in the US its a little differnt...once anyone is inside the US...they have the "right to free movement" and they can even go to states outside of Maine, Oh my! Or, to someone that forges documents, oh dear!
> 
> Oh, and in someone's "partner's" way of thinking, since it is illegal to enter the US illegally, there is no illegal alien _in_ the US - so, WTF are they talking about? Yeah, this is an expert on all things....maybe they should write Jan Brewer and set her straight, by darn!
> 
> I wonder how many people are risking it all and paying thousands to illegally enter China, the second largest economy in the world, and have children there? I don't know, but I am sure "whoever's partner" can fill me in.


Did you even read what I have posted *again? * Also where is your source of information on this kinda stuff? (be careful lots of politics motivated information to misinform folks out there) Because what my wife sent me pretty much said about what the *programs guidelines* such for her state and federal. So lets leave the sarcasm under tone out of this and don't get all upset when I providing you information on FEDERAL and maybe some info on State programs. But for the love of god re-read my last post again. 

BTW on illegals getting Food stamps VIA kids is Incorrect under federal Guidelines! *If the Parents are illegal they do not get food stamps! If they do then with false Documents as stated in last post would come under IPV (Intentional Program Violation)* 

*"The state that she resides in may have special programs out there for illegal’s, but Federal Food Stamps are not offered to any of them. There is just no other way for me to explain it."* -- So if illegals are getting food stamps it maybe your state that provides this! So I would investigate this in your state. 

So please I am going to leave you with some links! So if your going to get angry about this thread then don't follow the thread. I understand been fustrated with illegals (same as I) but one thing I can not stand regardless of views is miss information been throw around here. 

Please note these links below mostly about State stuff. Under FEDERAL guidelines they can not get food stamps. 

American kids denied food stamps in Alabama under immigration law | The Lookout - Yahoo! News
US children denied FS because of immigration laws

Lawmakers endorse denying food stamps to US children of illegal immigrants - kwch.com
Kansas State Food denying US children FS because their parents are illegal’s. (This is State not Federal)

PolitiFact | 'Illegal Alien Facts' vs. the Truth-O-Meter
BTW Wic in this link may go to illegals but Wic is not Food stamps it's a different program and Wic has a lot of limits to what you can get for food wise. (Great program for any new parent to be honest)

So I am going to leave it with this post and you guys can fight it out or what ever. Just keep this friendly which I have a feeling it wont. 

Oh and thanks for the warm welcome who said welcome to the US!  anyhow sun + riding time = yay *unsub from thread*


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## Missy May

Db, if I didn't have to pay for medical or dental insurance, food, taxes, or college tuitions, etc.,....I could purchase a whole lot of luxury items myself, so could a boat load of my fellow Americans - many of whom are "hispanics".

And, I live in a state where the majority of the population is "hispanic" (I, and many "hispanics" do no appreciate that term, they prefer American). My best friend is "hispanic", and their family was here before AZ was a state. And, you will find that people often confuse "hispanics" w illegals. I can't tell just by looking at someone - and I don't know anyone who can. I know a few "hispanics", and I don't know a single one that is "for" illegal immigration. And, they would NOT appreciate your using the word "hispanics" to mean "illegal alien".

Oh, and btw...there in Texas - people pay thousands in school property tax which is taken away from _their_ district and given to another. There are several Texan Americans that are not happy about property being taken from their children for the sake of illegals. The schools are overcrowded, although the citizens are not having or bringing in ton's more children....but the illegals are. Doesn't affect anyone? Really? Why is it okay to treat citizen's children so poorly ??? Is it the country they are from (i.e., the US)??The color of their skin? What?


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## Missy May

*Removed by Moderator for being rude unhelpful in this thread.*


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## Lakotababii

* Reply to removed post edited out by Moderator*

While I agree with a lot of what you are saying Missy, there is no reason to insult someone for differing in opinion.

Northwestern was saying that illegals are not supposed to get food stamps. He is correct, they are not. It is violation of laws for them, either with false information or through their children, to have those services. According to the laws, which his wife obviously understands, illegals should NOT be able to get services. 

My point was saying that they do indeed get a hold of them. As for your question Northwestern, Illinois (where I am from) does not allow illegals to have services either, there is no provision for them. However, they work around it in illegal ways, which was my whole point in the first place. It is not supposed to happen, but it does. Mostly due to lack of investigation on DHS part. It seems it is pretty easy to falsify a document of application.


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## FlyGap

Welfare sucks for the entire country. I can't stand it.
You are right Cherie, it is nearly impossible to get anything done but for fear of demographic vote loss, not so much the enormity of the issue. Sorry if I'm so simplistic. Hell, they passed Obama care and it's so complicated most who voted for it didn't even READ IT! But there is a pretty large population that could benefit from it, regardless of COST to the rest of us, and it's gonna get them plenty of votes.

We had a local Sheriff's race and the guy who won swore to clean up the crime and "Mexican Mafia" in our area. Second and third generation aren't going to college here. I went to a community college, nary a one and we have a population of thousands. Now the "mafia" is rearing it's ugly head and causing 10 times the problem. Tagging, vandalizing the parks that they swarm and cruise, drive by shootings, etc. He's got his work cut out for him. People are slapping their heads saying "DOH!", if only we'd kept our mouths shut! Really? Lets just ignore the problem, RIGHT? Focus on the good and brush that other stuff under the table, I mean they are buying used eclipses and hondas to supe up with drug money thus helping the economy, RIGHT? The businesses they start are spanish speaking only, DON'T GO IN ONE OF THOSE HERE if you are white. There are also two different Wal-Marts, can't go to the one they frequent, if you are white you'll get nasty looks, rammed with carts, keyed cars, and don't even THINK about saying "excuse me" if you need to get down an aisle while they are talking, the "ladies" will cuss you out. I am not exaggerating. 
A VERY large local chain of Mexican restaurants got busted for hiring Illegals, laundering money, tax and SS fraud. 

So whatever. Glad some of you guys live in great areas where there isn't a problem, where they are the greatest thing since sliced bread even though they came here Illegally, where all the white people are crap and living off food stamps (a great deal of that is EVERYWHERE), and there isn't a SINGLE one of them in your area having free babies, getting assistance, where they all pay their FARE SHARE, and life is bliss.


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## Horse Poor

Cherie said:


> Only Reagan DID something -- and we all know what that was -- He granted full amnesty to all of the ones working at that time. Had the Conservative Republican god not done this, 10 million more of them would not have been so anxious to get here.


You are spot on! I remember the 1986 Amnesty - I was against it then and am against ANY amnesty now. Back then, we were told there were a guestimated 1 million "living in the shadows" and that if we legalized them, they would become productive members of society. We were told that there would be greater enforcement of immigration law, that this would be a one time only amnesty and that illegal immigration would become a thing of the past. What happened? 3 times as many as were guestimated applied and became legal while enforcement efforts were ignored, underfunded and discouraged. Newly legal immigrants could now legally bring family members over to join them in the states. Instead of the 1 million the amnesty was designed for, 5 million were actually beneficiaries of it. Newly minted legal immigrants quit working for subpar wages and joined the legal workforce competing with Americans and legal immigrants already here. And the businesses who relied on illegal labor simply brought more illegals over to replace those lost to legalization, and now we have the problem we have now (10s of millions).


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## Missy May

*Referral to removed post removed by Moderator*

BTW, a few states have tried to deny "US citizen" anchor babies "benefits", none has done so w/o the full wrath of the Federal Court, ACLU, etc.,.


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## kitten_Val

northwesten said:


> Did you even read what I have posted *again? * Also where is your source of information on this kinda stuff? (be careful lots of politics motivated information to misinform folks out there) Because what my wife sent me pretty much said about what the *programs guidelines* such for her state and federal. So lets leave the sarcasm under tone out of this and don't get all upset when I providing you information on FEDERAL and maybe some info on State programs. But for the love of god re-read my last post again.


NW, I never argued that illegals receive the help _legally_. The problem though they fake the system (if you read the link I posted earlier in thread about faking IRS). The reason "system is such you can fake it" doesn't make it more lawful. 
_*
And folks, please, lets keep it civil. *_


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## northwesten

kitten_Val said:


> NW, I never argued that illegals receive the help _legally_. The problem though they fake the system (if you read the link I posted earlier in thread about faking IRS). The reason "system is such you can fake it" doesn't make it more lawful.
> _*
> And folks, please, lets keep it civil. *_


oops ment to say interesting on your links and agree. Tho the rest was ment for someone else but sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> Kitten Val I assure you that though undocumented workers do send a fair portion of their earnings home.
> They do indeed purchase luxury items and other things.
> Like I posted before there are malls that cater to that population and they are thriving.
> Ask anyone that lived on the border of Texas. Before the Cartel wars 1000's crossed daily to shop for electronics and other items no found readily in Mexico.
> Here in Texas we have many food stores that serve the Hispanic community. Those chains are growing.
> The purchasing power of the hispanic community here in Texas is enormous and stores are geared to the immigrant community. Shalom


db, I think anyone that can walk and chew gum at the same time recognizes that illegal aliens purchase goods and services just as anyone else. In case you don't remember, I posted a link several pages ago that clearly demonstrates that when you consider the positive contributions of illegal aliens and then the negative cost to society, illegal aliens cost this country billions of dollars a year. I am not quite sure why you keep posing the same argument when it has been discredited. It is neither logical nor sensical to ignore facts when you are presented with them.

I understand your position on the issue, but yours is an emotional position rather than a positive contribution position, so you should really defend your position with emotional points rather than continually trying to defend it with points that are demonstably incorrect. The bottom line is the net cost of illegal aliens is negative. Period. It is rather fruitless to keep stating otherwise. This is a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

I can understand and accept someone defending illegal aliens for humanitarian reasons, even though I disagree with that position, but I can't understand an argument involving their contributions when it is a known fact their net contribution is negative.

Obama is trying to buy votes - nothing less and nothing more...and he is doing it by ignoring the law of the land, placing additional costs on our already overstressed economy, and ignoring what is in the best interest of this country and its people. What is next? Perhaps he will instruct the nation to stop prosecuting counterfeiters, bank robbers, spies, domestic terrorists, and anyone else committing crimes under federal jurisdiction, to get their votes too...hey, these days that's a lot of votes...


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## kitten_Val

northwesten said:


> oops ment to say interesting on your links and agree. Tho the rest was ment for someone else but sorry for the misunderstanding.


No worries. :wink: I do agree with what you (and your wife) were saying: you can't get federal benefits if you are illegal (unless you use fake papers, which unfortunately some people do). As for states - yeah, depends on state.

Going OT, but our governor tried to push the law (under the carpet) to allow illegals the in-state tuition. Somehow the word went around before it became too late, and thousands of quite p*ssed people signed the petition against it. The governor's lawyers tried to fight the petition. I believe the whole situation is still under consideration.


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## FlyGap

I want to give credit where credit is due, the examples I gave were of a VERY populated, economically prosperous area, where I moved from.
Around our tiny community there _has_ been a tiny boon, goats. 
Our local sale barn is being kept alive by their population, I have no clue what their immigration status is. They drive from miles away to come buy the local livestock, especially goats and chickens. In the mornings before the animals there are also misc items like old fridges and appliances, furniture, boxes of clothing sold that they like. Lots of farmers are raising more goats to meet the demands. I raised quite a few pygmies that did EXCEPTIONALLY well there, I call em bite sized.
This is the ONE place we can all come together because they are the like minded, family oriented, older generation or farmers with kids/grandkids in tow. We are talking 50/75 people max, we know each others faces and smile and get along. So I hear what you are talking about in the small small farming communities.


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## Allison Finch

Folks, this has been an interesting and lively thread. However, there has been some rudeness here. Due to reports, some of these have been edited out (including one of mine that was taken somewhat out of context).

So, let's continue the fun, but keep the insults out, PLEASE!


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## Missy May

Well, I regret that I responded to provocation in a less than civil manner. I will leave this thread so that it can continue, uninterupted, in a civil, provocative, and lively manner. So, don’t let my bad stop you!


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## dbarabians

Flygaps description of her local sale barn where everyone gathers and becomes a community is how I see this Forum.
We all share a common interest in horses and if most of us met we would have a good time.
When we take the differing opinions of others personally we only harm ourselves and our community we have made here.
This thread is about an issue that affects most of us and it is important only as long as it is civil.
Just because I do not agree with anyone does not make their point invalid.
This has been a very informative and entertaining thread.
Missy May I did not see what was deleted nor do I care to know what it was. After reading your last post I respect you more and I hope that you lose none of your "passion" for what you believe in. Shalom


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## Faceman

The welfare/government aid issue is a bit of a dicey issue. IMO food stamps, etc. are not the real issues at all. The real issue is that our country is a sovereign nation, has the right and duty to protect its borders, and should prevent illegals from entering the country, and deport those that do manage to get in. Once they are here and have been here for a time, what are we to do? Is it moral and humane to feed a hungry person of English or German or Irish descent but not moral and humane to feed a person of Hispanic descent? Or is it moral and humane to provide WIC aid to help insure the children of ****** parents are well nourished, but not moral and humane to do the same for the children of latino parents? 

Compassion for the welfare of others should not be based upon race or ethnicity or citizenship status. I think everyone probably knows my position on welfare...I detest and oppose welfare fraud, welfare provided to people that don't really need it, welfare to provide anything beyond necessities, and welfare to those that are capable of taking care of themselves but don't..regardless of a person's racial, ethnic, or economic position. But come on...if a person or child is truly in need, we should provide a helping hand. Whether they are here legally or illegally shouldn't really be a consideration. 

Again, the real issue is that illegals shouldn't be here in the first place. Oh yeah, I know all about budget issues. But good grief, if I were to sit down and write down what I consider to be the top 10 priorities of the federal government, protection of our borders would be number 1. Democrats have not protected our borders - nor have Republicans. I consider it rather insane that we can send an Army to protect the borders of Kuwait, but refuse to send that same Army to protect our own borders. Folks, this is really wacko. In my opinion, it is high time the American people insist and require that our borders be protected. Sadly, I fear we are too timid to require our federal, state, and local governments do their jobs.

We the Sheeple follow where we are led by the whims of our leaders rather than require our leaders to lead us where we want to go...


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## dbarabians

I agree with Faceman.
Once they are here and, if and when they have children, those children need to be educated and fed.
I do not think any one here would deny a hungry person a meal.
Faceman the drastic changes that would halt the undocumented workers would cost both parties the hispanic vote and the financial backing of employers.
In this area there is not that much black and white as there is gray.
What we need is an immigration policy that allows guest workers to come and work but also encourages them to return to their country of origin.
One that allows the Federal Government control over the arrival of the workers and the conditions that they work under.
Accountability is what is missing in this equation. Shalom


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## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> Faceman the drastic changes that would halt the undocumented workers would cost both parties the hispanic vote and the financial backing of employers.


It is understandable that politics would influence issues that are optional. Issues that are not optional, such as national security, which we are talking about here, should be bi-partisan, and there should be no debate. That there is even any debate on the issue of securing our borders against illegal entry, regardless of the cost, is shameful, disgusting, and as far as I am concerned, treasonous...and I don't care if it is a Democrat, Republican, conservative, or liberal. How we handle illegal aliens that are here and established is understandably debatable - but the need to secure our borders from future invasion should not be a debatable issue. 

In principle, massive illegal immigration is no different than bombing Pearl Harbour, sinking one of our ships, or bombing the World Trade Center - they are all acts of aggression and war which dictate and justify a rapid and effective military response. In reality, the economic effects and loss of life due to the drug related activities of illegal aliens will, in time, far surpass 911.

To sit idly by and permit the invasion of our country by a criminal element is madness at best, and treasonous at worst. We have immigration policies in place to permit immigration by the "good guys"...not securing our borders merely invites the "good guys" to immigrate illegally, and permits the "bad guys" to enter the country as well. There are absolutely no positives to an unsecured border, and a host of negatives. This is honestly a real no-brainer...


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## dbarabians

Faceman your last post was full of logical reasoning.
Sept 11 2001 did change the fabric of American lives .
There are certain issues that require bipartisan support if they are to be resolved.
The isssue of immigration has been reduced to partisan bickering.
What is being forgotten is the welfare of the country.
In Israel immigration is tightly controlled and their borders are perhaps the most controlled in the world.
That control comes at a cost though.
The areas controled by the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in the Gaza Strip are some of the most dismal in the world. Especially Gaza.
Israel will have to spend a large portion of their budget to secure its borders from the unrest caused by an impoverished population next door.
Israel is a small country its borders easily defended not so in the US,
Not only is our border with Mexico long and sparsely populated we also have our northern border with Canada to consider.
This is a very complicated issue and to resolve it will cost Billions.
Shalom


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## northwesten

I think the US can secure a lot better than today. With the US you guys have a massive Military budget. 5 times more than China. Though US is streched because you have the troops posted and based all over the world. Logistics alone is costly. 

If we like Ron Paul bring troops home you can use all the power on something else and save money as well improving the boarder. Though I be honest I don't think Canada you have to worry so much. It's the south need to deal with. Also I think cutting back trade with China and improve it with your next door would help as well Then people less likely come over to find work etc.


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## dbarabians

Our border with Canada is the longest unsecured border between two nations in the world. With good reason.
However if we do not secure it the threat to this US will still exist.
The US military is the best equipped in the world.
The US military is stationed around the world to assure the fredom of our allies and to be ready for deployment worldwide.
Reassigning those personnel stateside reduces the mlitaries ability to respond rapidly to any threat.  That would weaken our national defense and that of our allies.
Expanding our military to control our borders would cost billions of dollars a year.
Doing so may require an end to our all volunteer military and require mandatory service for all able bodied young adults. Shalom


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## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> Israel is a small country its borders easily defended not so in the US,
> Not only is our border with Mexico long and sparsely populated we also have our northern border with Canada to consider.
> This is a very complicated issue and to resolve it will cost Billions.
> Shalom


How costly it would be depends upon the circumstances, and although our borders are longer, we have far more people and resources than Israel.

Now I know there are a bazillion logical arguments against it, and this is obviously a bit of a far fetched and wacko situation, but I pose this scenario...We have 12.7 million people unemployed that we are ALREADY paying. There may easily be 3 or 4 million of those that are able bodied men under 60. We obviously can't put guns in their hands, but 3 or 4 million people would make a heck of a border patrol.

Obviously that ain't gonna happen, but we could learn a lot from Israel when it comes to service to one's country to get a job done that needs to be done...


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## dbarabians

The question having unemployed workers fill the positions required for border security might be feasible.
That however would increase our military or add another branch to the services.
A larger more diverse military might however increase its power over budget decisions and politically. Shalom


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> Expanding our military to control our borders would cost billions of dollars a year.
> Doing so may require an end to our all volunteer military and require mandatory service for all able bodied young adults.


From what I read big number of people offered volunteer service in guarding the borders (I believe it was in AZ), but they were declined. IMHO stopping the wars (we didn't need in 1st place) and bringing troupes (and money!) back to use it on borders would solve the problem.


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## dbarabians

One reason for the refusal of the volunteer services was lack of oversightg and some had questionable ties to suspected racist organizations and or individuals.
Plus volunteers need to be professionally trained.
I agree that ending the Wars would free the military and billions of $.
We have already spent a trillions $ in Iraq. That is a lot of money even for our government to spend. Shalom


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## kitten_Val

dbarabians said:


> Plus volunteers need to be professionally trained.


True, but (at least around here) they do it for EMT, firefighters, volunteer police, etc. for free, I'd think it could be not much of a difference for other volunteer services.


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## dbarabians

Kitten Val I see your point but the Federal Government operates on a different level than local municipalites.
Plus once you get that many people there will be too much money involved and at risk to allow volunteers to control it.. Shalom


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## Allison Finch

What we don't need is a bunch of uncontrollable vigilantes patrolling our borders. As for using the armed forces....there are certain restrictions on using military on home soil.

Posse Comitatus Act of 1878

http://www.dojgov.net/posse_comitatus_act.htm


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## Missy May

Allison Finch said:


> What we don't need is a bunch of uncontrollable vigilantes patrolling our borders. As for using the armed forces....there are certain restrictions on using military on home soil.
> 
> Posse Comitatus Act of 1878
> 
> Posse Comitatus Act of 1878


I do not see how posse comitatus can be interpreted to mean the US cannot defend its borders. Posse comitatus was not meant to be used as some future "suicide pact", it was born out of the CIVIL war and STATE needs, not after the Mexican-US war for Mexico's needs . It was written long after the constitution, a document which only requires that the government actually "do" a handful of things...one of which is defense.

Everyone seemed to want it completely ignored during Katrina....where it clearly applied.


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## kitten_Val

Allison Finch said:


> What we don't need is a bunch of uncontrollable vigilantes patrolling our borders.


I disagree, Allison. We have volunteer park patrols and event patrols here (I tried to join, but unfortunately never had time to go through the whole program). You have to go through the training and pass the exam before you are allowed to be the one. I know number of people who participate - all VERY nice people who take it seriously but not personally, and so far I haven't heard any complaints about such volunteers. There are strict rules you have to follow when you are the one. 

dba, I agree that Federal is different from State level. I think quite often Federal doesn't want or try to work with states to address problems or concerns (I'm not talking about immigration, but in general).


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## Allison Finch

Yeah, Zimmerman was one of those, right? He was trained too....for what? Neighborhood watches are usually very well organized.


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## Allison Finch

Missy, read the link of the restrictions due to that act. This is just a tiny segment of it;



> Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus
> 
> Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of
> Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to
> execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
> 
> Editor's Note: The only exemption has to do with nuclear materials (18 U.S.C. 831 (e)


This act was a result of Federal troops used to enforce the new laws after reconstruction. It was decided that federal troops should never be used to enforce the laws of the land on home soil, only fight foreign hostile soldiers. As far as I know, farmers and laborers are not considered foreign hostile fighters.


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## SouthernTrails

> IMHO stopping the wars (we didn't need in 1st place) and bringing troupes (and money!) back to use it on borders would solve the problem.





> Sec. 1385. Use of Army and Air Force as posse comitatus


The subject started about our Troops coming home and securing our Borders, since I believe a majority of our Troops involved currently overseas are National Guard, then they could be used.

Sec. 1385 refers to a different Branch as in our full time Army, Marines, etc.



.


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## Horse Poor

Allison Finch said:


> Missy, read the link of the restrictions due to that act. This is just a tiny segment of it;
> 
> 
> 
> This act was a result of Federal troops used to enforce the new laws after reconstruction. It was decided that federal troops should never be used to enforce the laws of the land on home soil, only fight foreign hostile soldiers. As far as I know, farmers and laborers are not considered foreign hostile fighters.


As it is clearly stated - "*except* in cases and under circumstances expressly *authorized by the Constitution* or Act of
Congress,"

And article 4 section 4 of the CONSTITUTION says:

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence."

Perhaps you should do some reading on Woodrow Wilson's use of troops regarding Pancho Villa.

And I don't know where you get the idea that only farmers and laborers are the only people here illegally! Check out the FBI's 10 most wanted murderers…here's the link so you don't have to search…

FBI — Violent Crimes - Murders

only 3 are American…the rest are foreign nationals - 5 Mexicans, 1 Costa Rican and 1 Panamanian.

And here are some articles for your consideration - 

Illegal immigrant charged with raping 14-year-old Troy girl | KMOV.com St. Louis
"TROY, Mo. (KMOV) -- An illegal immigrant from Guatemala has been charged in the rape of a 14-year-old girl in Troy, Missouri."

Federal agents arrest Amine El Khalifi; he allegedly planned to bomb Capitol - The Washington Post

"For more than a year, Amine El Khalifi, of Alexandria, considered attacking targets including a synagogue, an Alexandria building with military offices and a Washington restaurant frequented by military officials, authorities said. When arrested a few blocks from the Capitol around lunchtime on Friday, he was carrying what he believed to be a loaded automatic weapon and a suicide vest ready for detonation."
...
"Khalifi arrived in the United States when he was 16 and was living as an illegal immigrant in Northern Virginia, having overstayed his visitor’s visa for years, officials said. In 2010, he was evicted from an Arlington apartment after having failed to pay rent."

Immigration authorities released man who went on to kill 3 in North Miami - Miami-Dade - MiamiHerald.com

"When burglar Kesler Dufrene became a twice-convicted felon in 2006, a Bradenton judge shipped him to prison for five years. And because of his convictions, an immigration judge ordered Dufrene deported to his native Haiti.

That never happened.
Instead, when Dufrene’s state prison term was up, Miami immigration authorities in October 2010 released him from custody. Two months later, North Miami police say, he slaughtered three people, including a 15-year-old girl in a murder case that remains as baffling today as it did the afternoon the bodies were discovered."

Man Accused In Baby Death Had Been Recently Deported | New Mexico News - KOAT Home
"ALBUQUERQUE, N.M. - Federal agents said the man accused of sexually assaulting and killing a 1-month-old baby girl had recently sneaked back into the United States after being deported to Mexico four months before the crime."


Illegal Immigrant Accused Of Raping Girl, 12 - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego

Illegal Immigrant Accused Of Raping Girl, 12
Jose Ayala, 18, Accused Of Raping, Molesting 12-Year-Old

Are we being INVADED? YOU BET!


----------



## Missy May

Allison Finch said:


> Missy, read the link of the restrictions due to that act. This is just a tiny segment of it;
> 
> 
> 
> This act was a result of Federal troops used to enforce the new laws after reconstruction. It was decided that federal troops should never be used to enforce the laws of the land on home soil, only fight foreign hostile soldiers. As far as I know, farmers and laborers are not considered foreign hostile fighters.


Yes, good! So glad you are aware...it was prepared and enacted after the CIVIL WAR, and its authors were quite literate. They wrote prolifically about their intentions. No where did they say, "in light of what some feel is biased from US troops in beaten confederate US STATES, we feel that all states or future states that adjoin foriegn countries should be prohibited from recieving military assistance to secure the borders of the US against illegal entry from citizens of those nations". _No one_ interpreted it as you do at the time of its inception. Again, Mexico is not a state and illegal aliens are not US citizens. They are not coming here in hopes of becoming a citizen of the state of say AZ or TX, but at the same time, not a US citizen. It is not possible to do so, b/c both are members of the US. 

I was unaware that it has been determined and proven that all illegals are farmers or laborers.

There is a rather large and indisputably universal language. It is called - math. If one cannot understand its basic concepts, they cannot understand that if the US borders of the 48 contiguouse states are defined as they are - not all states will be border states, but all states within the 48 contiguouse states are states.

I personally do not understand why those that passionately want Mexicans to come here illegally do not push, demonstrate, and _demand_ that US citizens that _want_ them to come will voluntarily pay for all associated costs in perpetuity, and those that don't wish to participate will not be forced to do so. I think this would really help the divisiveness of the issue.


----------



## Missy May

Horse Poor said:


> As it is clearly stated - "*except* in cases and under circumstances expressly *authorized by the Constitution* or Act of
> Congress,"
> 
> ...................
> 
> Are we being INVADED? YOU BET!


 
:thumbsup: x 2


----------



## Faceman

Allison Finch said:


> What we don't need is a bunch of uncontrollable vigilantes patrolling our borders.


And what would be wrong with that? If you read my post properly, I qualified it and said you obviously couldn't put guns in their hands. That does not mean civilians could not patrol, document, and report. 

I have just as much right to protect the border as the border patrol, the National Guard, or anyone else. Just because Obama does not believe in the US Constitution, as he has clearly demonstrated and proven over and over again, does not mean those of us who are patriotic Americans don't.

And such an action is not even remotely similar to the Zimmerman affair - on which the jury is still out anyway, by the way. One is a domestic incident, and the other is stopping foreign invaders...


----------



## dbarabians

Faceman, we both know that if civilians did report and document any transgressions the response would be so slow doing ,so would be meaningless.
Also allowing volunteers to place themselves at risk due to the remote locations, heat, and violence that might arise would make our government responsible for their well being.
If the drug Cartels that control the immigration north killed or injured volunteers the response would be different than if they fired on military personnel. Shalom


----------



## kitten_Val

Allison Finch said:


> Yeah, Zimmerman was one of those, right? He was trained too....for what? Neighborhood watches are usually very well organized.


Zimmerman in fact had several restriction orders (problems with his former gf + something else I don't remember). The simple background check (which is A MUST around here) would eliminate him before getting a "license" (permission, whatever it's called).

You don't have to give a gun to those volunteers. Again around here they don't have one.


----------



## dbarabians

KittenVal what good would it do to not arm the citizens or give them the power to contain any violators.
Even the Tick riders that patrol the border to prevent contamination from Mexican cattle carry guns for their protection. That border area is dangerous.
With the coyotes making 5,000 $ a person there is a lot of money at stake.
The cartels will not allow the flow of money to be stopped without a fight.
With over 50,000 dead from the violence already that is a situation the government should not have to be responsible for.
Besides patrolling the border would be a full time job. Most people have to make a living. Shalom


----------



## dbarabians

I also want to say that I do not believe that we as a country are being invaded.
We have people that are fleeing dire poverty and oppression.
The main reason the Irish, Jews, Italian, Germans, etc came to these shores to begin with. Shalom


----------



## Allison Finch

dbarabians said:


> I also want to say that I do not believe that we as a country are being invaded.
> We have people that are fleeing dire poverty and oppression.
> *The main reason the Irish, Jews, Italian, Germans, etc came to these shores to begin with.* Shalom



Well said!!

In the 1700's, that's why my family came here. I am the product of border incursion....just farther removed by time.


----------



## kitten_Val

I'm sorry, folks, but I don't think it's very reasonable to compare past and current because of so many changes. What was a norm or need in 1700th (1800th or even 1900th) is not necessarily a norm or need right now.


----------



## Missy May

I'm a DAC and Native American. I do not feel my forefathers were illegal immigrants, but each to his own. I also do not feel they were mass murders b/c they faught in wars for this country. To understand the difference between murder and killing, one first has to be able to grasp the concept of "illegal".

If time is not a variable to be considered, then nor would history be. Okay, so - on the fossil evidence available today, which is always subject to change, people did not evolve independently on different continents. This would necessarily mean the forebearers of all people, with a few exception in Africa, were "immigrants". Um, that would include Mexicans. So, what could the point to this possibley be? That since people did not evolve independently on all continents, Mexicans should be allowed to illegally enter the US??


----------



## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> I also want to say that I do not believe that we as a country are being invaded.
> We have people that are fleeing dire poverty and oppression.
> The main reason the Irish, Jews, Italian, Germans, etc came to these shores to begin with. Shalom


You may believe it is acceptable for foreigners to invade - you may choose to believe whatever you want. But your belief that they are not invaders is a false belief.



> in·vade (
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> _v._ *in·vad·ed*, *in·vad·ing*, *in·vades*
> _v.__tr._ *1. *To enter by force in order to conquer or pillage.
> *2. *To encroach or intrude on; violate.
> *3. *To overrun as if by invading; infest.
> *4. *To enter and permeate, especially harmfully.


Your compsarison to the Irish, Jews, etc. is also invalid, and has nothing to do with illegal entry.

And "fleeing poverty and oppression" is NOT justification for illegal entry or breaking the law, for Heaven sakes. If that were the case then we would have to say it was justifiable for any poor or underserved person to rob, pillage, assault, murder, or commit any other crime. Of course you liberals do that a lot - justifying crimes based upon some incident in a person's childhood...trying to justify antisocial and criminal behavior because mommy or daddy spanked little Johnny too much when he was a baby, or maybe locked him in a closet when he was 5, which somehow justifies his criminal actions 40 years later.

We are, fortunately, sapient beings and have the capacity to recognize right and wrong, and the rules by which we need to live in society. Illegal entry is a crime, and it is done premeditatively with full knowledge that it is a crime. Fleeing from poverty or oppression may be one of the REASONS the crime is committed, but it is not JUSTIFICATION. I may be able to determine why a person has killed another person, but that doesn't justify the crime, and the person shouldn't be let off scott free just because we know why he/she did it.

Your whole train of thought on this issue is emotional rather than logical. Be reminded that if society fashioned its rules and guidelines based upon emotion, chaos would result - we are getting a small taste of that chaos now with Obama stepping outside of the logical bounds necessary for a society to function properly, and trying to make decisions on an emotional knee-jerk basis. He has begun to simply thumb his nose at and ignore the law, based upon his own personal wants and desires. We cannot as a society function or survive under such leadership, and you are smart enough to know that...you are simply setting aside logic for what satisfies your own personal desires. But all of us have to make sacrifices - we all have to sacrifice some of our wants and desires for the sake of society and order. I can't just go out and take what I want - women, food, cars, jewels, gold, or anything else I may have a whim for. Again, if everyone did that we would have chaos and no organized society at all. I am as anti-government and anti-law as anyone except the wacko anarchists, but we do have to have sufficient laws to protect people and maintain some sense of order...


----------



## Faceman

kitten_Val said:


> I'm sorry, folks, but I don't think it's very reasonable to compare past and current because of so many changes. What was a norm or need in 1700th (1800th or even 1900th) is not necessarily a norm or need right now.


Of course it isn't a valid comparison. I am 1/4 "Native American", but have enough snap to know that man did not evolve on this continent - Native Americans immigrated here just as everyone else, and just as man has immigrated hither and yon for 2 million years.

Not only is it not a valid comparison, it is irrelevant to begin with...you don't justify criminal behavior just because someone else has done it. There aren't too many new and unique crimes outside of the high tech area. If we forgave everyone that committed a crime just because someone had done it before, murder, rape - nothing - would be a crime. That whole train of thought is rather silly...


----------



## Horse Poor

Allison Finch said:


> Well said!!
> 
> In the 1700's, that's why my family came here. I am the product of border incursion....just farther removed by time.


Well, I don't know that any nation's immigration laws were broken in the 1700's although there is no doubt what eventually happened to the native populations. Perhaps we could learn something from it as it an excellent example of what happens when too many immigrants decide to make your home their home.


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## dbarabians

Faceman, I do not understand how you feel my reasoning is emotionally based.
What paperwork did any of the Irish, Itallians, Germans, or Jews need or provide as they arrived up to 100 years ago?
Besides paid transportion.
Mexicans who come to this country for work are doing the same thing the Irish did when they fled the potato famines.
Someones past does influence their future behavior Faceman to discredit that is not logical.
Without understanding the cause of the Mexican Nationals to leave their families and country we will never halt the flow of people.
This is neither a liberal or conservative issue it is a human one.
The history of this country includes many mass migrations and most new immigrants were not welcomed with open arms.
They were also exploited for their cheap labour.
Their culture and language derided and slandered. Does this not sound familar?
Bringing up historical facts to reflect on a current issue is valid.
It also shows that we have not changed that much when new immigrants are treated the same as those of a few generations ago. Shalom


----------



## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> Faceman, I do not understand how you feel my reasoning is emotionally based.
> What paperwork did any of the Irish, Itallians, Germans, or Jews need or provide as they arrived up to 100 years ago?
> Besides paid transportion.
> Mexicans who come to this country for work are doing the same thing the Irish did when they fled the potato famines.
> Someones past does influence their future behavior Faceman to discredit that is not logical.
> Without understanding the cause of the Mexican Nationals to leave their families and country we will never halt the flow of people.
> This is neither a liberal or conservative issue it is a human one.
> The history of this country includes many mass migrations and most new immigrants were not welcomed with open arms.
> They were also exploited for their cheap labour.
> Their culture and language derided and slandered. Does this not sound familar?
> Bringing up historical facts to reflect on a current issue is valid.
> It also shows that we have not changed that much when new immigrants are treated the same as those of a few generations ago. Shalom


If you cannot understand my reasoning, you didn't read my post very well. So let me rephrase it if it will help. There are two types of immigrants - legal and illegal. The Irish, Jews, etc., did not immigrate illegally. "Nough said about that...

And if you have read other posts by me and others, it should be well pointed out that circumstances today are not what they were 100 years ago or 200 years ago, when we were desperate for labor - no matter where the source. To repeat what I said much earlier, this is a case of not seeing the forest for the trees - you are so blinded by your emotions youare not tying any of this together.

That is not intended to discredit your beliefs and desire to help those in need...there is nothing wrong with that. Hopefully we all have that desire to some degree or another. But for a nation to suffer, as we are, because we turn a blind eye to a group of people that do NOT have a right to illegally immigrate is insanity. I realize that (extrapolated) liberals believe that it is justifiable for an entire nation to suffer to help one person they perceive (usually, or at least often, incorrectly) to be downtrodden, but there is a point of diminishing returns. Look no further than our public education system to see that point clearly demonstrated, where we have lowered the standards, causing the entire system to suffer and become ineffective, in order to accommodate those "downtrodden" people. Thank you...we now graduate students that are only marginally capable of reading and writing, and rank 17th in the world in math and science education last time I checked.

To repeat what I said earlier, the right for someone living in another country to immigrate here IS NOT A BASIC HUMAN RIGHT. We are far more generous in our immigration policy already than we should be given our economic circumstances, but if anyone thinks it is some basic right to immigrate to the US should they so desire, they are dead wrong...it is not...


----------



## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> It also shows that we have not changed that much when new immigrants are treated the same as those of a few generations ago. Shalom


That statement I fully agree with. There have been a couple of comments in this thread in that vein that I have really had to bite my tongue on. I'm sure you have been there, done that...you know, you try to write a post pointing out how bigoted a statement or point of view is, then you just don't hit the submit button because you don't want to stir up trouble, so you just stand mute.

Just as we keep telling you liberals - "we have a spending problem - not a tax problem", this issue is an illegal immigration problem - not an ethnicity problem...


----------



## dbarabians

I have never advocated that it is a human right to imigrate to the USA.
It is the right of every Jew to emigrate to Israel but that is different.
We both agree that once they are here we cannot ignore their presence.
14 million cannot be rounded up and thrown across the border.
I do help recent arrivals interpret leases, job applications, and other contracts from time to time.
I have witnessed employers and landlords trying to take advantage of the legal status of the workers for their financial gain.
Ricardo has seen far more than I.
Ricardo is not the exception to the rule. If given the chance to earn a path to legal residency most undocumented workers would thrive and realize the american dream of bettering oneself.
Immigration is not in itself a bad thing.
With over half of the post graduate degrees in this country being awarded to foriegn born strudents ,we will need to reform our policies to ensure our continued success.
Faceman you are ok with me. Shalom


----------



## kitten_Val

Faceman said:


> Of course it isn't a valid comparison. I am 1/4 "Native American", but have enough snap to know that man did not evolve on this continent - Native Americans immigrated here just as everyone else, and just as man has immigrated hither and yon for 2 million years.


Is "immigration" a correct word even? From what I remember (please, correct me if I'm wrong, because I never really studied this subject) people moved through the north when Alaska and Siberia were connected. So I'd much rather call is "spread around the world" (for many nations and regions, not just Americans) than "immigration", because "country" didn't even have a meaning back then.


----------



## Faceman

Hard to say, but you are probably correct. In a way, it is not immigration if you aren't moving to a place where there are already people, but in a way it is if you are moving into a new area to improve your situation and exploit new resources. I guess it would depend upon one's definition of immigration. But migration might be a more accurate term for human movement in prehistoric times. In many, if not most, cases, it was more a matter of fleeing to survive more than anything, as a lot of the migrations were in response to global weather changes. Ice ages forced them south and they migrated back north during warmer periods. From his origin in Africa for example, man migrated north to Europe, then migrated back to Africa, then back to Europe as the global weather changed. "Neanderthal Man", who some consider to have been human (I am one of those who don't), never made the migration back to Africa as he became extinct. My assumption is Neanderthals were liberals, so didn't have the common sense to migrate south when it got cold (haha - couldn't resist). We evolved from Cro Magnon, not Neanderthal, although their is mtDNA evidence that there was likely a limited amount of interbreeding, but there is substantial disagreement on that particular issue.

You are correct in that man migrated to North - and then South America across the land bridge from Asia. That was fairly late in the scheme of things, and of course accounts for the distinctly oriental appearance of many "Native Americans" in both North and South America, although recent evidence rather clearly demonstrates many South Americans have a substantial Polynesian origin which was introduced later...


----------



## dbarabians

Neanderthals had limited vocal abilities Faceman.
We liberals use our vocal abilities to annoy conservatives too well to be have evolved from them.
They were probably exploited as cheap labour by conservatives for their lack of proper documentation. 
Gotcha. Shalom


----------



## SueNH

Ellis Island - FREE Port of New York Passenger Records Search

I don't know if that Ellis Island link will work on this thing. If it does... line 8 is my grandmother. She was 17 years old and had $3 in her pocket. She and the many others on that boat had nothing. They worked and made this country great. The ship docked July 3 late in the day. Her feet hit American soil for the first time on July 4th, something she was very proud of. From nothing to a house with a formal dining room, crystal chandelier and a concert grand piano. She worked and worked her butt off for it.

These are the people we should be letting in. The ones who want to strive for better life. As it stands now only the elite get let in legally. The incentive isn't there. We need to think very long and hard about immigration and what made this country work.

I am sick to death hearing people blame the Mexicans for this and the Latinos for that. Most of those people want nothing more than something good for themselves and their families. It's human nature and you aren't going to change it. I'd rather embrace those who want to come here and make something. A western European millionaire isn't going to have the drive to make things better. He's already got it good. We need to go back to our roots and remember how our country got so great.

dobrý deň


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## Faceman

It's not that the liberal Neanderthals were undocumented...the rock tablet documentation papers were too heavy to carry around during the hunt. 

Very recently, new light has been shed on the reason for the extinction of Neanderthal. You may have read that at a limestone quarry operation in northern France in April of this year, a pile of rock tablets was uncovered, and are believed to be the professional journal of the great Cro Magnon liberal philosopher Grogg Oogstein, who you remember organized the first intraclan food relief program. According to Oogstein's etchings, the predominantly liberal Neanderthals refused to follow the advice and leadership of the predominantly conservative Cro Magnons. They were positive global warming would force the intruding glaciers to recede, and refused to make the trek around the Mediterranean back to Africa...


----------



## dbarabians

Faceman, you ain't right.
Hey at least as liberals we are aware that the Flinestones was not a documentary.
Whoever lied and said conservatives had no sense of humour?
they do indeed but all their jokes are about liberals.

The Supreme Court just upheld a portion of the AZ immigration law.
Gotta go find out about that. Shalom


----------



## dbarabians

Iread the article real fast but it looks as if the Supreme Court upheld AZ's right to ask people their immigration status.
Yet, it also disallowed the state the ability to enforce federal immigration policies. This is interesting as it reduces the states ability to enforce Federal policy. Shalom


----------



## Faceman

dbarabians said:


> Iread the article real fast but it looks as if the Supreme Court upheld AZ's right to ask people their immigration status.
> Yet, it also disallowed the state the ability to enforce federal immigration policies. This is interesting as it reduces the states ability to enforce Federal policy. Shalom


Yeah, that is a real travesty. If the federal government won't perform its function, the states should have the right to perform it.

I understand the implications, but just extrapolate what has happened. Say, for example, the Chinese decided to invade the United States, had a massive troop landing on the Left Coast, and the federal government did nothing about it - just let them invade and take over Washington and Oregon...they wouldn't want to bother with California, of course, as they already own most of it. Should the citizens of Washington and Oregon, as well as the rest of us, just allow it to happen?

You may think that is a far fetched extrapolation, but it is not. We either defend our borders or we don't. Whether it is Mexican immigrants or an attack by China is only a matter of degree - not a matter of principle...


----------



## jinxremoving

SueNH said:


> I am sick to death hearing people blame the Mexicans for this and the Latinos for that. Most of those people want nothing more than something good for themselves and their families. It's human nature and you aren't going to change it. I'd rather embrace those who want to come here and make something. A western European millionaire isn't going to have the drive to make things better. He's already got it good. We need to go back to our roots and remember how our country got so great.


Maybe if the people in Mexico cleaned up their own country people wouldn't blame them for this and that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Pretty much all central and south american countries at the top of that list. While I have no doubt there are a lot of hard working and innocent people from those countries, there is also a huge disproportional amount of bad people compared to other parts of the world. The only thing keeping the Southern States from becoming another lawless Juarez is the border patrol.

Thank god I'm in Canada!


----------



## goneriding

Bobby Lee said:


> Wow!!!
> You are all immigrants, right?


If they want to live here then do it LEGALLY like our forefathers did!


----------



## Faceman

jinxremoving said:


> Maybe if the people in Mexico cleaned up their own country people wouldn't blame them for this and that.
> 
> List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Pretty much all central and south american countries at the top of that list. While I have no doubt there are a lot of hard working and innocent people from those countries, there is also a huge disproportional amount of bad people compared to other parts of the world. The only thing keeping the Southern States from becoming another lawless Juarez is the border patrol.
> 
> Thank god I'm in Canada!


Picking out one type of crime is a flawed process. Heck, if I picked out the crime of the burglery of igloos, Mexico wouldn't even be on the list.

Use OVERALL crime - not one type of crime, to determine a country's crime rate.

And in case you are interested, the US ranks 8th, your precious Canada ranks 12th, and the "evil" Mexico ranks 39th, with a crime rate only 1/6th that of Canada.

Yes, that means you are 6 times more likely to be the victim of a crime in Canada as in Mexico...


----------



## dbarabians

jinxremoving, your above statement is questionable in suggesting that Mexico and Central America are populated by people prone to criminal behaviour.
The Southwestern US has always had a strong spainish influence and large hispanic population.
In fact we embrace it.
The border patrol has limited control on the violence on the US side of the border and is pretty ineffective in controling access to the US.
The only crime most of the undocumented workers will commit is entering this country without authorization.  Shalom


----------



## kitten_Val

SueNH said:


> I am sick to death hearing people blame the Mexicans for this and the Latinos for that. *Most of those people want nothing more than something good for themselves and their families.*


This is true not just for Latinos, but pretty much any person coming here, whether legally or illegally. Better life by working the butt off (which is something good besides someone legal may not get that spot), or sell some drugs and make some money (also something good for themselves and families), or blow out some people for the sake of religion (again, something good for themselves). Should we just open the borders and let everyone to come? How to distinguish between someone who will work the butt off without asking for assistance and faking a system, and someone who will sell drugs on street? "Illegal" is "against the law", and should be treated as one. At least until the law is changed and said (clearly) "illegal" is "not against the law and allowed". There ARE ways to come here legally, and if someone has a strong will to build a better life he/she CAN do it. 

BTW, when Bush tried to push the immigration reform while back, the forums and blogs were full of angry comments coming from _legal _*latino* people, who were very unhappy about it.


----------



## Missy May

Faceman said:


> Yeah, that is a real travesty. If the federal government won't perform its function, the states should have the right to perform it.
> 
> I understand the implications, but just extrapolate what has happened. Say, for example, the Chinese decided to invade the United States, had a massive troop landing on the Left Coast, and the federal government did nothing about it - just let them invade and take over Washington and Oregon...they wouldn't want to bother with California, of course, as they already own most of it. Should the citizens of Washington and Oregon, as well as the rest of us, just allow it to happen?
> 
> You may think that is a far fetched extrapolation, but it is not. We either defend our borders or we don't. Whether it is Mexican immigrants or an attack by China is only a matter of degree - not a matter of principle...


Well, the Chinese seem to have a few bright people among them and be pretty tight w their money. Since bullets cost a bit these days, and they have almost no problem w child birth, they wouldn't bother using bullets to invade, occupy and populate when they could simply do so with the blessings of db and those of like mind, of course. Am I right db? I wouldn't want to misrepresent your position.


----------



## Lakotababii

jinxremoving said:


> Maybe if the people in Mexico cleaned up their own country people wouldn't blame them for this and that.
> 
> List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Pretty much all central and south american countries at the top of that list. While I have no doubt there are a lot of hard working and innocent people from those countries, there is also a huge disproportional amount of bad people compared to other parts of the world. The only thing keeping the Southern States from becoming another lawless Juarez is the border patrol.
> 
> Thank god I'm in Canada!



Oh my goodness...:shock:

1. Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Period. Anyone can make an article on wikipedia. Try to find more reliable resources next time.

2. Even if the homicide rates are higher, it is not because Mexican people are somehow "bad." What they need to clean up is their law enforcement and judicial system. They also need to deal with their poverty issues. They are understaffed with cops and such, and have a high crime rate because their system is inadequate. Thus gangs and drug cartels. It's not because there are more "bad" people than here in America, it is simply because they have inadequate ways to deal with these issues.

Dealing with these issues is not easy though. It takes time, and its not a simple fix. 

If our poverty rate was that high, our system that broken, Americans would see a spiked crime rate as well. We have the same issues they have with crime, but on a smaller scale because we have a better judicial system than them. Although that's a whole 'nother can of worms... 

3. I do commend the border patrol, but it is not only the border patrol that keeps the Southern states in check. Try the whole system, including cops, courts, and the citizens themselves. They would love to defend their country and keep their states safe from these crimes. 

Okay rant over.


----------



## kitten_Val

Missy May said:


> Well, the Chinese seem to have a few bright people among them and be pretty tight w their money. Since bullets cost a bit these days, and they have almost no problem w child birth, they wouldn't bother using bullets to invade, occupy and populate when they could simply do so with the blessings of db and those of like mind, of course. Am I right db? I wouldn't want to misrepresent your position.


MM, the difference with Chinese folks many of them try to get education and come here legally - as students or on H1. And then they get a green card (usually through the employer). Also many of them immigrate to Canada (because it's much easier to immigrate there with the point system Canada has), and if they are unhappy in Canada they look for jobs and ways to immigrate to US from there. As I said, if there is a will, there is a way.


----------



## dbarabians

Misy May I am going to accept your above post as sarcasm.
You imply that I believe in allowing any and everyone to enter this country with no oversight.
That is false.
My family has enabled another to attain citizenship. Deservedly so.
I have never assisted anyone in crossing the border, nor hired any that have already made the journey.
My position has always been that reform is needed.
To protect our border, allow some type of Government regulation, and protect those that are guest workers.
I have served in the Armed forces of 2 different countries and I took an oath to protect and serve them and would still do so if the need arose. 
To imply otherwise is indeed a misrepresntation of my views. Shalom


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## Missy May

dbarabians said:


> Misy May I am going to accept your above post as sarcasm.
> You imply that I believe in allowing any and everyone to enter this country with no oversight.
> That is false.
> My family has enabled another to attain citizenship. Deservedly so.
> I have never assisted anyone in crossing the border, nor hired any that have already made the journey.
> My position has always been that reform is needed.
> To protect our border, allow some type of Government regulation, and protect those that are guest workers.
> I have served in the Armed forces of 2 different countries and I took an oath to protect and serve them and would still do so if the need arose.
> To imply otherwise is indeed a misrepresntation of my views. Shalom


Oh, good heavens! No! I didn't mean to imply, as I don't ordinarily beat around the bush. Clearly I have misunderstood your position all along. Goodness, me. Its just from your post I was under the impression you didn't feel that 14 million people illegally entering the country from Mexico, with their government's assistance and blessings, for the express reason to live, work, and have children here qualified as an invasion. 

Well, I'm glad it was all just a misunderstanding on my part, my apologies.


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## Horse Poor

Personally, I don't think that coming from *insert whatever country* predisposes anyone toward criminal activity. I believe that is a personal choice. What I DO believe, however, is that cultural differences ARE a problem. If an illegal comes here, they will not be familiar with our laws…nor do they care to be. They are not here because they care about America, our laws or our citizens. THAT is the problem. If a person comes from a "machismo" culture, they may not think they are committing a crime when they rape a 12 year old girl, beat their girlfriend to a bloody pulp, or drive drunk without a liscense or insurance, because, in their home country it's acceptable to do so.


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## dbarabians

Horse poor, you bring up a good point about the differnce in cultures.
what may not be a big issue in another country may be one here.
After spending thousands of dollars to get here most undocumented workers do care that they do not commit a crime.
Doing so would be foolish the end result is deportation. Shalom


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## Faceman

Horse Poor said:


> Personally, I don't think that coming from *insert whatever country* predisposes anyone toward criminal activity. I believe that is a personal choice. What I DO believe, however, is that cultural differences ARE a problem. If an illegal comes here, they will not be familiar with our laws…nor do they care to be. They are not here because they care about America, our laws or our citizens. THAT is the problem. If a person comes from a "machismo" culture, they may not think they are committing a crime when they rape a 12 year old girl, beat their girlfriend to a bloody pulp, or drive drunk without a liscense or insurance, because, in their home country it's acceptable to do so.


Perhaps, but only to a small degree. There is no question that moving to a different culture takes some adjustment to learn all the different rules. But most countries' laws are based upon the same principles of right and wrong as ours. I don't know any country where it is accepted to rape, murder, steal, embezzle, or any of the vast majority of crimes against victims that we have here.

And come on - I don't know of any "machismo culture" that condones raping a 12 year old girl, or beating women to a bloody pulp. Your statement, whether purposely or inadvertantly, is bigoted. "Machismo cultures" are usually Catholic based, and have the same values as basic American culture.

As adults, at least most of us, we should know better that to judge an entire country, ethnic group, or culture, based upon its small percentage of bad elements. All societies, including our own, have their bad elements.

We are completely justified in being concerned and upset about illegal immigration from Mexico, and we should be concerned about the criminal element - just as we should be concerned and upset about Obama's actions...particularly his orders to ICE today, which violate the Constitution, existing federal law, and the Supreme Court decision yesterday. Obama has crossed the line, and is now a traitor to this country. In another time he would be tried and convicted of treason and executed - and justifiably so.

However, we are NOT justified in practicing prejudice and discrimination against an entire nation due to the criminal actions of a few. The vast majority of Mexicans, just as the vast majority of Americans, Canadians, Japanese, and just about every other country, are "good people" by any reasonable measure.

We have an illegal immigration problem...and a problem with the Mexican government. The Mexican people or culture themselves are not the problem...


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## kitten_Val

FM, the problem I run into yes, many countries have similar laws, however violation of them is also a norm there (especially if you have enough money). So there are laws that are not in place.

For example I've heard immigrants here to complain why they can't just give a $20 bill to the policeman who stopped them for speeding. I can think of some other (more violent examples) as well. The worst part those people don't get WHY it's NOT OK and keep ranting and bad mouthing.


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## Horse Poor

I cared about illegal immigration but only in a cursory/contemplative way until the "Day Without Immigrants" occurred. That was the most blatant in your face show of contempt for America that I had ever seen. It changed my thinking forever. Thousands of illegals who were supposedly scared to death of being caught working and living here illegally gathered together in a unified attempt to bring our country's economy to it's knees! It was the equivalent of giving America the middle finger…

And many immigrants do not understand why certain things are not okay. Did you know there was a law passed against female genital mutilation? My first thought was WHY would we NEED such a law. The reason, cultural differences.


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## Missy May

I agree with horse poor, w respect to culture, not necessarily with the written law in countries such as Mexico, or Panama, or El Salvador, etc.,. It is the "culture" in many such countries for the written law to be applied on a "case by case" basis, as well as bribery to be expected by law enforcement. That, in itself, is a "cultural difference" I can do without. Nepotism is another practice I don't think this country will benefit from becoming an accepted, expected and "cultural" practice, which it is in the latin "cultures"...and, consequently, is among "hispanics" in this country - by and large. 

To me, how the laws are administered or enforced in any country outside the US is none of my concern. However, it is a concern when it is actually used as a defense when illegals commit crimes in this country, which is done on a regular and consistant basis.. Should that really be a "mitigating circumstance"? Now its "ignorance of the law" is no excuse, unless you are an illegal. And, it is a concern when 14 million of them impact this country's laws and practices w those they, reportedly, were oppressed by. 

Also, most Americans (as in US of A) recognize that the "culture" in areas that are heavily populated with uneducated, unskilled, and poor citizens in this country isn't quite the same as it is on Martha's Vinyard. Yet, they assume illegals represent all of the finer things their mother country's "culture" has to offer. 

I don't think observation of behavioral patterns qualifies as bigotry, personally. What does qualify could be debated for hours on end...since it is opinion based. It_ is_ the cultural _norm_, for example, in the "hispanic" culture for a husband to be unfaithful, and it_ is_ also acceptable for a husband to beat his wife to _any_ degree if _she_ is unfaithful. Should we all take example of this behavior, or at least view it as a beautiful expression of culture - so as not to be labeled a "bigot"?


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## EvilHorseOfDoom

As an outsider nervously peeking in, I'm surprised that no one has really threshed out the fact that a significant contributor to instability in Central and South America (thus causing mass exodus to the US and elsewhere) is drugs, which are (illegally) bought by Americans, Europeans, Australians and others. A number of these countries (e.g. Mexico, Colombia) have high murder rates because they are essentially in civil war, with many parties indirectly being funded by the illegal activities of those in more privileged countries. We don't operate in a vacuum - in a closely connected globalised world, each action you take can have an effect in a country on the opposite side of the world, on a person you have never met and will never know existed. Just a thought 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman

EvilHorseOfDoom said:


> As an outsider nervously peeking in, I'm surprised that no one has really threshed out the fact that a significant contributor to instability in Central and South America (thus causing mass exodus to the US and elsewhere) is drugs, which are (illegally) bought by Americans, Europeans, Australians and others. A number of these countries (e.g. Mexico, Colombia) have high murder rates because they are essentially in civil war, with many parties indirectly being funded by the illegal activities of those in more privileged countries. We don't operate in a vacuum - in a closely connected globalised world, each action you take can have an effect in a country on the opposite side of the world, on a person you have never met and will never know existed. Just a thought
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are, of course, correct. We, as Americans, as an elicit drug consuming nation, are obviously largely responsible for much, if not most, of the crime problem arising from illegal immigration. That is not to say we are responsible for illegal immigration in general - just the drug related criminal element. However, there seems to be an element among us which seeks to blame an ethnic group for issues caused by our own indescretions...


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## Saddlebag

In every democratic country, there is a certain percentage required to remain poor. They have little political influence. Then a percentage needs to be middle class to support the poor and the rich as they pay the most taxes. The small percentage at the top carries all the political influences and pay few taxes. There is also the underground economy which helps keep the middle class business people paying taxes. So it's all part of keeping the pseudo democtratic process rolling. Of course Obama's administration will turn a blind eye to illegals as your economy would likely worsen.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom

Faceman said:


> You are, of course, correct. We, as Americans, as an elicit drug consuming nation, are obviously largely responsible for much, if not most, of the crime problem arising from illegal immigration. That is not to say we are responsible for illegal immigration in general - just the drug related criminal element. However, there seems to be an element among us which seeks to blame an ethnic group for issues caused by our own indescretions...



By no means is all immigration to the US caused by this! But as you say it plays a significant role. 

For a different situation, here in Australia, the rightwing element has managed to get many people very hot and bothered about a _ few hundred _ people who come by boat. We lock them in detention for months, often years, only to find that most have genuine claims to asylum. Meanwhile most of our illegals come by plane, are from Europe and have no claim (except to a country with more sunshine, maybe!) and no one is remotely bothered. But boat people? Gracious me, no! Can't possibly let a few hundred of them in, they'll destroy the country! *sigh*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman

Missy May said:


> I don't think observation of behavioral patterns qualifies as bigotry, personally. What does qualify could be debated for hours on end...since it is opinion based.* It is the cultural norm, for example, in the "hispanic" culture for a husband to be unfaithful*, and it_ is_ also acceptable for a husband to beat his wife to _any_ degree if _she_ is unfaithful. Should we all take example of this behavior, or at least view it as a beautiful expression of culture - so as not to be labeled a "bigot"?


While I agree that observation of behavioral patterns does not qualify as bigotry, statements made by you and others are bigoted by any reasonable measure.

The statement I bolded above is blatant bigotry. It is absolutely and absurdly false, and, as we are both conservatives and agree on many issues (including the illegal immigration issue), I am disappointed you - or anyone else - would make such an ignorant and bigoted statement. As I stated earlier, the majority of Hispanic culture is based uon Catholicism. Are you so uninformed as to think Catholicism teaches adultery? I have no Hispanic blood to my knowledge, but I find your statement extremely offensive. In my opinion you owe the Hispanic community an apology. 

I thought we were beyond such blatant prejudice, but evidently not. I enjoy a lively debate on the issues, but I am not going to be associated in any way with ethnic bigotry. I'm out of this thread, and I hope our liberal and independent friends don't think all conservatives are narrow minded bigots, because the majority of us are not...


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## Missy May

Faceman said:


> While I agree that observation of behavioral patterns does not qualify as bigotry, statements made by you and others are bigoted by any reasonable measure.
> 
> The statement I bolded above is blatant bigotry. It is absolutely and absurdly false, and, as we are both conservatives and agree on many issues (including the illegal immigration issue), I am disappointed you - or anyone else - would make such an ignorant and bigoted statement. As I stated earlier, the majority of Hispanic culture is based uon Catholicism. Are you so uninformed as to think Catholicism teaches adultery? I have no Hispanic blood to my knowledge, but I find your statement extremely offensive. In my opinion you owe the Hispanic community an apology.
> 
> I thought we were beyond such blatant prejudice, but evidently not. I enjoy a lively debate on the issues, but I am not going to be associated in any way with ethnic bigotry. I'm out of this thread, and I hope our liberal and independent friends don't think all conservatives are narrow minded bigots, because the majority of us are not...


Being as how my life long and very best friend is “Hispanic”, as are many of my acquaintances and friends – I am not speaking about something with which I have no personal knowledge, nor do I think they would find an apology necessary – and they certainly do no find me bigoted. I can also tell you that many “Hispanics” are _*very *_prejudice against non-hispanics, but they don’t mind playing that “race card” – to the degree they don’t even realize Hispanic is a culture, not a race. Politicians love it.


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## dbarabians

Missy May all stereotypes are based in fact to some degree.
No culture or ethnictiy is more prone to adultery, bigotry, or criminal behaviour.
This debate is going into an area that I am not comfortable with.
Making broad statements about a group of people is questionable and only creates distrust among us all.
Those statements also have no place in this discussion.
They also fuel the claim that those opposed to immigration reform harbour feelings of racial hatred. 
I too am following the example of Faceman and withdrawing from this discussion. Shalom


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## Missy May

You know, Db, I often get the feeling you would like to prove and pronounce your "moral superiority" by taking offense to "meanings" of statements that were never made. It is the sort of thing that makes honest debate concerning all of our differences - be it gender, race, ethnicity, etc., near impossible. My only point was that to believe that _all_ illegals check whatever "undersirable" parts of their culture they might possess at the border (the border they are illegally crossing) and come bouncing in to the US w only those "cultural" practices that are to be admired, preserved and loved by all it - is ludicrous.


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## Missy May

Faceman said:


> as we are both conservatives and agree on many issues (including the illegal immigration issue), hope our liberal and independent friends don't think all conservatives are narrow minded bigots, because the majority of us are not...


 
For the record, I do _not_ like labels, I do not call myself conservative - so, shwew, you are safe from any possible catagorization or prejudice against your personal beliefs by group association there ever could have been. And, likewise, as I have said many times, I do not like the word "hispanic", which is why I always put it into quotes, I prefer the word "American". 

I don't hold it against people if they can't comprehend that individuals are capable of having and do have their own opinion and are under no obligation to limit their thoughts to whatever the soup de jour is for their unsolicited and unadvertised "label" at any given time. I don't like labels - they are what divides this country and lend themselves to bigotry and prejudices.


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## Horse Poor

Faceman, herein lies the rub…Catholicism doesn't predispose it's believers to being any more moral or noble than does any other religion or having no religion at all would. Yet you are using it in your example as if it does. Since there is no perfect race, culture or religion, then it stands to reason that there must be problems with each and ignoring or refusing to talk about those problems won't make them disappear. It's a fact, not all cultures or people are compatible with some having deep seated historic animosities and beliefs that do not change with a change of address.


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## EvilHorseOfDoom

Horse Poor said:


> Faceman, herein lies the rub…Catholicism doesn't predispose it's believers to being any more moral or noble


Neither does being American...


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## Faceman

Horse Poor said:


> Faceman, herein lies the rub…Catholicism doesn't predispose it's believers to being any more moral or noble than does any other religion or having no religion at all would. Yet you are using it in your example as if it does. Since there is no perfect race, culture or religion, then it stands to reason that there must be problems with each and ignoring or refusing to talk about those problems won't make them disappear. It's a fact, not all cultures or people are compatible with some having deep seated historic animosities and beliefs that do not change with a change of address.


Having withidrawn from the discussion, I won't offer any new information, however I will certainly refute inaccurate comments directed at me. No where - repeat...no where - did I state or intimate that "Catholicism predisposes it's believers to being any more moral or noble than does any other religion". 

I merely stated...



> As I stated earlier, the majority of Hispanic culture is based uon Catholicism. Are you so uninformed as to think Catholicism teaches adultery?


I didn't think it was necessary to draw a picture or give a **** and Jane explanation that because the majority of Mexicans are Catholics they were instilled with the same principles as we have been instilled with.

In any case, I don't put words in your mouth, and would appreciate if you would return the favor...


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## FlyGap

Well,
What they did to Arizona after the ruling is an obamination. 
Insanity. There are a reported 400,000+ illegal immigrants in AZ and the citizens are no longer allowed to protect themselves. Just another "change in policy" when faced with something they don't like.

Call a person a bigot, racist, whatever for using terms or personal accounts that aren't completely "PC". This is just YET ANOTHER out of control infringement on OUR rights. THEY (this administration) are the ones fueling the fire, when things get out of control no one is going to appreciate their version of "change".


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## Horse Poor

Faceman said:


> Having withidrawn from the discussion, I won't offer any new information, however I will certainly refute inaccurate comments directed at me. No where - repeat...no where - did I state or intimate that "Catholicism predisposes it's believers to being any more moral or noble than does any other religion".
> 
> I merely stated...
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't think it was necessary to draw a picture or give a **** and Jane explanation that because the majority of Mexicans are Catholics they were instilled with the same principles as we have been instilled with.
> 
> In any case, I don't put words in your mouth, and would appreciate if you would return the favor...


I "got" it Faceman, and will cease inferring anything from your posts. However, being instilled with Catholic principles doesn't change a thing. I don't think you'll find a country more devoted to Catholicism than Italy. Yet, we are as familiar with the word Mafia as we are pizza and spaghetti and none of those has anything to do with Catholicism.


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## Horse Poor

EvilHorseOfDoom said:


> Neither does being American...


I never said it did.


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## Allison Finch

well, Missy, let me see....

I have a couple of African American male friends who are having affairs that their wives don't know about. Does that mean African American "culture" predisposes all African Americans to cheat?

I look at the news and see all of these Caucasian politicians cheating on their wives. Does that mean Caucasian politicians are "culturally" predisposed to cheating?

To judge a whole ethnic population by a few "known" examples may say more about the people you choose as your friends than a whole ethnic population, I think.


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## Missy May

Allison Finch said:


> well, Missy, let me see....
> 
> I have a couple of African American male friends who are having affairs that their wives don't know about. Does that mean African American "culture" predisposes all African Americans to cheat?
> 
> I look at the news and see all of these Caucasian politicians cheating on their wives. Does that mean Caucasian politicians are "culturally" predisposed to cheating?
> 
> To judge a whole ethnic population by a few "known" examples may say more about the people you choose as your friends than a whole ethnic population, I think.


You missed my point all together, but I can see how you would misunderstood my meaning as I forgot to emphasize that I was talking about a marriage between a man and a woman. The "tolerance" in that culture for males to have extramarital affiars is pretty high, which is not at _all _true for the woman (i.e., a wife). 

There are many countries in sub saharan Africa, and I have no idea what each of their individual "cultures" dictate when it comes to marraige - nor do I see the relavence. If you were speaking about Americans, not African immigrants, why single out sexual behavior by color? Now THAT_ is_ biggoted!

Oh, and BTW, faceman, I searched to see if the religion of the gunmen in the drug related murders that occur on a daily basis in Mexico was known. These are not murders just targeting those in the drug trade...it is men, women and _children,_ gunned down and/or chopped up for the "fear factor". Their religion wasn't mentioned - but they were identified as Mexicans.


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## Allison Finch

<sigh>


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## MHFoundation Quarters

When a thread strays into racism, it goes beyond the forum's sense of appropriateness. As such, consider this discussion closed.


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