# English pleasure fail



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Just trying to get some ideas to help my 12 year old daughter focus on some realistic goals with her horse. Harley is an Arabian. As such, he can be hot. He's fine at walk/trot (we only did that last year, and she brought home firsts and seconds, sometimes competing against a dozen other riders). This year, she added the cantering, and it's a massive fail. Harley has a big canter. It's not just us - we were warned about this when we bought him, and other riders have gotten on him (including our coach) and found him very difficult to slow down. He did, however, compete in dressage classes very successfully, so it's not impossible to get a controlled canter out of him, but it's still a very showy canter which is not well-received in English pleasure classes where he's supposed to be relaxed and a pleasure to ride. 

Harley is 18, by the way. But doesn't act it. Here's what is happening: when he starts to canter, he gets very excited and just wants to go faster and faster. My daughter (again, she's only 12) will try to slow him down, at which point he gets unbalanced, breaks stride, loses his lead, etc. It's a train wreck. Now, he isn't dangerous - will not bolt, rear, or misbehave. But even when she almost has him cantering in place, he looks very dressage-y, not very English pleasure-y. 

So I guess my first question is: is it possible to get a horse like this to have a low-key canter? If so, what does it take? She is working with a coach, of course, but we have the summer to work on this at home too. Would he eventually slow down if she rode him every day and cantered for a good long time? In the past, he hasn't shown indication of getting tired. He will canter until he's drenched with sweat, and still act like a colt just bursting out of his stall. But we've never tried cantering daily for long periods of time. Even if he did slow down at home, though, I'm guessing he'd still get excited at a show. And that first canter will probably still be a big one. 

My next question is: would it just be better to stop trying to make Harley into what he's not, and channel his strengths? If she switched to dressage, the big flowy canter with the tail up in the air like he's dancing wouldn't be penalized so much. Everyone who sees him canter comments on how pretty he looks, but our coach tells us that's not what English pleasure judges want to see. She's also thinking about jumpers. He's fast, and a great jumper. She doesn't mind the speed anymore (she was initially intimidated by it), in fact, she's always asking me if she can let him gallop a bit. She has good balance, and likes to jump. She's jumped a course at her coach's and was clear. 

Thoughts? We just haven't done jumping at shows because Harley will get excited. But I've seen him jump a course very fast without missing a single jump. I told her maybe she could try jumping at her coach's, keep focusing on a controlled canter this year, and aim to do low jumps next year. That gives her something to aim for, which helps motivate her. Because right now, I feel like we're trying to put a square peg in a round hole. She has to control his canter, I have no doubt about that. But I don't think he'll ever be a quiet English pleasure mount. Maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> My next question is: would it just be better to stop trying to make Harley into what he's not, and channel his strengths?


My first thought when I started reading about him. You can't make a budding astronaut work as an accountant and expect a balanced individual. I strongly believe that the discipline should follow the horse, not the other way around.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I can't answer many of your questions and concerns but I will say not every horse is destined to be a English pleasure animal...
You bought Harley from people who showed him successfully..._what kind of classes did he excel in? _
That would be where I would be heading with a veteran 18 year old show master....
At this age he is _*not*_ going to change his spots to stripes is a saying I have heard..

So...you mention having your daughter ride him "tired" cantering....
_*No....*_
You _do_ that and you are _*not*_ tiring him out.
You _*are*_ building endurance and more stamina...
Try another tactic of managing that energy output...or different classes.

Regardless of anything you do with Harley he has to be controlled and listening to his rider.
Till he does that successfully I don't know if I would be taking him anyplace exciting to his demeanor where although he is clean jumping your daughter has minimal control of that excited horse if she really can't slow him and his "showy" action down...
I was told a long, long, long time ago... "Speed kills"...truth in fast cars and can be true in horses.
Harley needs to listen and be rate-able for a safe mount for your daughter is my opinion...
Yes, ride him where & how he is happy...but it must be with rider in control not just as a passenger on a speed demon in faster gaits.
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

To answer your question horselovinguy, Harley has been a successful dressage and jumper in the past.

And I fully agree - he needs to be under control. But it's not that my daughter can't control him. She has let him full-out gallop (under my supervision) and could still steer and bring him back to a canter. He does listen to her, but he doesn't seem to have the gait that they're looking for in English pleasure. In trying to get him to have a slow, relaxed, easy canter (almost like a Western lope), she is causing him a lot of confusion, and so he is breaking gait and trotting, or losing his lead, or doing flying lead changes. He doesn't understand "slow English pleasure canter". 

My thought was that she could aim for jumping next summer, and dedicate the rest of her summer to continuing to work on cantering so she can get her lead right and not let him break into a trot. I just think that if she does it while keeping in mind that English pleasure is not her ultimate goal, she will be ok with placing poorly at shows this year. Or I told her she might think of forgetting about shows for a while, and just building her skills. 

Your opinion about tiring him out tends to support mine as well. Harley doesn't get tired, and if you have to tire a horse out before a show, then he's not really show ready in my opinion. 

She's interested in dressage too, but I don't know any good dressage coaches in the area. 

Here's the video they sent us when we bought Harley. You can see the speed in the jumping portion but he is definitely under control in the dressage portion. Watching this video again makes me think I should encourage dressage rather than jumping! It frightens me a little to see him go that fast. This is not my daughter riding him, this is at his previous home.


----------



## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I would agree that no amount of cantering is going to teach him to canter slowly. Harley is a forward horse irregardless of his breed (many Arab's are not "hot") what may work a little better is a lot of transition work and riding off of her seat. not just canter transitions but transitions at all gates. It sounds like he is anticipating the canter.

You must also take conformation into consideration when discussing gaits. If Harley is more upright in his shoulder he will never have a real sweeping -flowing canter - conformationally he just can't.

I would say that Harley can compete in these classes for the experience for your daughter but I would not expect him to ever place well. As for jumping I would not think "speed" necessarily equates to form and technical abilities.

Your daughter is young. Put her in as many classes as she likes but let her know that she may not always place. The experience she will gain will stay with her far longer than any ribbon she may win


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

He doesn't look like a scary horse to ride. He just looks fun and forward. I agree he's not an English Pleasure horse.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes Avna, you're right. He's not scary. I saw scary horses in hunter/jumpers at this show. Horses who refuse, horses who buck, horses who fight you the whole way. Harley's not like that. But I'm glad that you are seeing what I'm seeing. English pleasure will not be where he shines.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

So, he was used in three day eventing? Yes, forward, as he needs to be for jumping,but I'd say at a very elementary level, far as dressage
When you bought him, you were actually looking more for a basic kid's horse, which he was not, having been used for jumping,.
So, yes, you are now trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, which worked for walk trot, but at this age, very un likley that you are going to change him into a quiet relaxed rail horse
No, cantering him down will not work, but as mentioned, just make him more fit, taking longer each time to ride down
Lots of up and down transitions will help some, but, having in the past, tried to ride horses I had shown in games and reining, in rail events, only worked at open type shows, where my horse was broke enough to win, never break gait, get all the right leads, but never truly moved like a relaxed pleasure horse
Pulling on him, as you found out, to try and slow him, will cause him to break gait, or get even more foreward. You never slow a horse truly by pulling on the reins
What slows a horse, is to ride with more legs,making him drive deeper, more more collected, and I doubt your daughter has the leg strength to do that. You then must feel when he becomes lighter in your hands, and reward. 
Does your daughter wish to jump?
If so, perhaps that is the discipline she should be taking lessons in. Harley is the wrong horse for her to learn basic equitation and pleasure on, JMO
It would be like me giving one of my kids in the past, a horse I had showed in reining, to ride in a basic western pl class
It is much easier, to take a horse you have first ridden in basic rail classes, and then add some more adrenaline type classes, and be able to go back to those rial classes, then to take a horse that was first trained to be very forward, and expect him to do relaxed rail classes


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

carshon said:


> I would agree that no amount of cantering is going to teach him to canter slowly. Harley is a forward horse irregardless of his breed (many Arab's are not "hot") what may work a little better is a lot of transition work and riding off of her seat. not just canter transitions but transitions at all gates. It sounds like he is anticipating the canter.
> 
> You must also take conformation into consideration when discussing gaits. If Harley is more upright in his shoulder he will never have a real sweeping -flowing canter - conformationally he just can't.
> 
> ...


This is essentially what her coach is doing. Working on tons of transitions. She's going to do a week-long camp at her coach's house with Harley. That should really give them a good jump start. He is anticipating the canter now. Last year, he wasn't because he knew he wasn't going to canter at shows. Now that she's cantering him, he wants to canter all the time. So his trot is more choppy too. 

While speed doesn't always translate to good form in jumping, the difference is that as long as he clears the jump and does it quickly, he will not be penalized for not being in frame or cantering too fast. 

My daughter does pull too much on the reins. I should probably have said that she only started cantering him this spring, really. She's been cantering lesson horses for years, but Harley's canter is a whole other ballgame. So she gets tense because she knows he's going to overdo it. Therefore she holds him back right from the beginning, causing him to break. She needs to sit back more, relax, and use her seat. Half-halts work well with Harley, but pulling at the reins does not, because he just leans into them more. As a result, he is too much on the forehand with her. All things the coach has pointed out, and will be working on. 

Thanks for your thoughts. It confirms what I think. And yes, she can put him in lots of classes if she wants to, for the experience, as long as expectations are managed, though it is hard on her ego. The coach and I are trying to do that, but it's so hard for me as a mom to see my daughter struggling out there. That said, this is a life experience. Things tend to come easy to her. She is learning that some things are a bigger challenge than she thought. To give her some credit, after the second of 3 classes, I told her it was ok to stop there. It was clear she was very discouraged. The third class she was in was the last class of the day. Most other riders were already gone. It turned out she was the only one who had signed up for it (Open English pleasure). She told me she wanted to do it anyway, and went out there like a trooper, all by herself. The first place ribbon was meaningless of course, but I was proud of her for going back out there and persisting. Someday hopefully she can look back and see just how far she's come.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Bottom line, I see ahorse that jumps well, but in that flat work, not really any great training, with the horse moving fast legged, and not truly collected, JMO


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> So, he was used in three day eventing? Yes, forward, as he needs to be for jumping,but I'd say at a very elementary level, far as dressage
> When you bought him, you were actually looking more for a basic kid's horse, which he was not, having been used for jumping,.
> So, yes, you are now trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, which worked for walk trot, but at this age, very un likley that you are going to change him into a quiet relaxed rail horse
> No, cantering him down will not work, but as mentioned, just make him more fit, taking longer each time to ride down
> ...


No, he didn't do 3 day eventing, he did jumping and dressage at separate shows. 

Thanks for this. Again, it confirms everything I am thinking. Yes, we were looking at a child-friendly horse for her, but fell in love with Harley, who is an amazing horse in many other ways. But not easy to ride, certainly. She rides lesson horses on a weekly basis, so she can practice her equitation skills there. I've suggested she could show the lesson horses, but she loves her horse and wants to show him. She will either become a better rider because of Harley (she is still young and has lots of time) or she will have to shift her focus. If she were willing to put in the work, Kodak could make a good pleasure horse as she has a lopey canter. As long as she didn't spook, but she is pretty good now, only spooking in place. 

Shes goes back and forth between wanting to jump and being afraid of how Harley will react. But she was also afraid to canter him for a long time, and has now conquered that. I think she should start doing one or two jumps at her coach's to see if she wants to go that route. She's jumped him plenty of times, but never more than one jump at a time. She's very comfortable jumping, and did an entire course on a different horse last summer (but not at a show). Her coach is a jumping coach. All the kids start with walk/trot, then English pleasure, then beginner hunter/jumper. For dressage, we'd have to find another coach, which may not be realistic because I don't know any good ones in the area.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

English Pleasure is alien to me because I spent most of my life in the UK where it doesn't exist but from what I've seen of those classes here it shouldn't be impossible for Harley to perform correctly in them - OK so he might not go to top level but I don't think that's what you want anyway
The majority of horses and ponies that go into a dressage or show ring have got a 'big stride' but the riders and trainers have worked with them to get them responsive to working between the leg and the hand so they understand how and when to shorten their stride when asked - that's something a show jumper also needs to be able to do


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes, @jaydee she can shorten and lengthen his stride. They still need work, but have done a lot of this by working with poles. If you look at the jumping portion of the video (again, not my daughter riding), you see he is able to adjust his stride. 

I don't think it's exactly impossible for Harley to move like an English pleasure horse, but it's asking him to do something that goes against his conformation and nature. He will always have energy. I admit, I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to what judges look for in these different disciplines, which is partly why I turned to this forum for opinions. But from what the coach says, from watching how the successful flat class riders did at the show, and from what others are saying here, Harley's just not the English pleasure type.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> So I guess my first question is: is it possible to get a horse like this to have a low-key canter? If so, what does it take?
> 
> Because right now, I feel like we're trying to put a square peg in a round hole.


And you are. He doesn't have the desired movement for English pleasure. That's not a bad thing --- it's just not his thing. 

When I go to the local shows, I always enter Red into Western Pleasure. In the 6 years I've had him, we've never placed. And I'm totally fine with that because I know he doesn't have the correct gait for it (very forward, like Harley). I just do it anyway because it's good for him to do slower events than just run barrels. 

No amount of "cantering forever" will turn Red into a Western Pleasure horse. No amount training will do it either. He just doesn't have the desired movement.

If your daughter wants to show English Pleasure for the experience and for fun, by all means. But just make sure she understands that Harley doesn't have the "right" movement for it and not to feel discouraged if he doesn't place well.

He seemed pretty happy to jump in the video you posted, so if your daughter is interested, she could work on that with him. 

You could also try some dressage, but I agree with Smilie that he's going to have to work on better collection to be successful there. He's got the headset, but his body is flat and doesn't have the "power drive" frem behind that a dressage horse needs to have.


----------



## Daylilly (May 6, 2017)

I won't pretend to know a lot about the different events. However, I do ride a lot and I have had horses that are hot. I have a thoroughbred cross that is just like his dad that can run all day. My dad owned the sire and he has stories where his horse would just run up the whole length of a mountain without stopping. If there were logs or anything in general the horse would just sail over them. He loved running and would jump into the bed of my dad's truck, he didn't need a ramp or anything. He was so excited to go ride. His son is a lot like him, however he does have a fast canter and a very slow controlled one. He knows that I could ask him to go quite a distance on a canter and will listen to me. I know a lot of people say cantering a horse out isn't the answer. However, my trail horses know they could be asked to canter a couple of miles on a trail and they will keep it slow most the time. However, I have to remind them sometimes. They are horses that could go all day, but even they don't like going out too hard and like to be paced. I am not saying this horse should be able to compete in any event, but if you want a relaxed lope any horse can produce one. It is all in the energy level he still may be loping faster than most horses, but long as he is relaxed and listening that is what is important. I guess what I am saying, is that from my experience we have had a few horses that could go all day, but still would listen if we asked for a slow canter and usually it does work to take them on some trails and just let them lope until they are ready to listen.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

beau159 said:


> And you are. He doesn't have the desired movement for English pleasure. That's not a bad thing --- it's just not his thing.
> 
> When I go to the local shows, I always enter Red into Western Pleasure. In the 6 years I've had him, we've never placed. And I'm totally fine with that because I know he doesn't have the correct gait for it (very forward, like Harley). I just do it anyway because it's good for him to do slower events than just run barrels.
> 
> ...


Thanks @Beau! Again, I feel better equipped to guide her in her choices knowing all this. 

And it's funny you bring up the dressage limitation! His previous owners were successful with Harley at second level dressage (he won the provincial championship getting high 60s and even a low 70 - I have his passport), but felt he didn't have what it takes to go beyond that. They mentioned his conformation and the fact that he just isn't able to round up his back like he's supposed to at higher levels. And because they had national aspirations, they got more dressage-y type horses. So they were honest with us about his limitations. However, even if my daughter could only perform at 2nd level dressage, I think she would be content with that, as long as she placed (she doesn't like being last). 

He still loves to jump and is not showing signs of slowing down, but he is 18. So I'm not sure how many more years he could do it. Still, maybe there will be enough time for him to show her the ropes and for her to develop her skills as a rider before she outgrows him and he retires. She only wants to do low jumps to start of course.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Daylilly said:


> I won't pretend to know a lot about the different events. However, I do ride a lot and I have had horses that are hot. I have a thoroughbred cross that is just like his dad that can run all day. My dad owned the sire and he has stories where his horse would just run up the whole length of a mountain without stopping. If there were logs or anything in general the horse would just sail over them. He loved running and would jump into the bed of my dad's truck, he didn't need a ramp or anything. He was so excited to go ride. His son is a lot like him, however he does have a fast canter and a very slow controlled one. He knows that I could ask him to go quite a distance on a canter and will listen to me. I know a lot of people say cantering a horse out isn't the answer. However, my trail horses know they could be asked to canter a couple of miles on a trail and they will keep it slow most the time. However, I have to remind them sometimes. They are horses that could go all day, but even they don't like going out too hard and like to be paced. I am not saying this horse should be able to compete in any event, but if you want a relaxed lope any horse can produce one. It is all in the energy level he still may be loping faster than most horses, but long as he is relaxed and listening that is what is important. I guess what I am saying, is that from my experience we have had a few horses that could go all day, but still would listen if we asked for a slow canter and usually it does work to take them on some trails and just let them lope until they are ready to listen.


Well, Harley hates trails and is difficult to control on them, so that would bring in an added element of challenge! It's not just the speed of the canter either. They are looking for a certain movement. And apparently, Harley does not have that movement. He's very showy, head and tail in the air, rocking-horse canter, rather than flat. It's like he's dancing. Would he be less "dancy" after a couple of miles? I don't know... maybe. 

One of his previous owners came to visit on Saturday and told us she had the same problem with him and that her coach tried to tire out Harley by making her canter for a really long time. He never showed signs of tiring, even long after most horses would be begging to stop!


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Have you thought to take the emphasis off of "appearances" and go to it being form and function, get the job done?
Harley loves to run and he loves to jump by your description of him...combine them then and look at doing something in the cross-country style of events.
That does not mean he needs to do dressage where again he needs to be contained, not booming appearing strides always, very rate-able.... 
To me that is more the 3-day eventing and I am_ not _referring to that style of classes for them.
Show jumping in a arena is fun, pure fun. 
It is show jumping, but better known to me as just "jumpers"...more on clearing the fences in a good time not on being "pretty" and correct with how it gets done, just done clean, clear. 
Jumpers are incredibly scopey horses, good ones are. 
Rate-able, _very_ careful what they do and how they do it.
Jumpers is a lot less restricting than doing equitation and hunter style classes and work...
Harley you describe as fast and clears all that he has been put toward...so capitalize on it.
Horse and rider need to be a real team...he with guts to do what he is facing and her to see those distances and either steady him back, hold him or send him in long distances to clear those fences or ground obstacles.
If he gets "bounding" in excitement cause he doesn't want to always be check, checked, checked and held then look for something in which he can move with his natural forward gait.
Harley needs though to be able to be rated, slowed, steadied and needs to also know it is OK to explode when your daughter misses a distance and Harley saves her bacon and his over that fence...
Your daughter...she needs to be one heck of a rider in technicals learned and known, to ride those types of classes and can automatically interpret, see and make her changes needed to clear fences, make tight turns and difficult distances seem easy and safe for her and her mount...
She needs to be able to get Harley contained, simmered down and listening, stop fighting him and hanging on him but ride with him...cover his energy and big striding gait. 
All riding activities require a horse who can be toned down and revved up as needed... 
All those activities need a rider who can match the power of the horse with finesse astride, make it become invisible the hard work the rider is doing rating that horse quiet.
She must be on top of her game at all times astride...concentrate and work hard with Harley to win, place or show.
At 18 years of age it is not going to be Harley who changes much his way of going but your daughter changing her expectations of what she can do with her horse as he is today and will be tomorrow..
As you already said, that lesson is hard on her morale. Now she needs to learn to work the "system" to her advantage. Find the classes they can excel in and find the coach that can take them to the winners circle doing that...
Right now you are good learning & building her riding foundation, but if she goes jumpers...a hunter coach who is stressing equitation and hunter style riding may not be that right combination. :neutral:

I too wonder if it is his build some that makes him so hard to contain, to collect or if it just he doesn't want to. 
If his previous owners also only thought, knew Harley was good to 2nd level, then unless I am mistaken it could also affect his jumping form as going past 2nd level has to do with more collection and that is all connected in engaging the motor, the hind end for jump push-off and striding. 
Your daughter though is no where near that level of riding ability yet if she is not really doing course work...

I think these things you truly might need to investigate yourself and maybe have a private conversation with that trainer.
_Your daughter needs to find the "something" that is fun or she will lose interest quickly. _
Ribbons are fun to win,...at her age it means a lot. 
Otherwise, why bother could be her mindset quickly._sorry.

Just some other things to consider, think about..
:runninghorse2:*....*
jmo..
_


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I agree with you horselovinguy. I do not want her to lose interest out of frustration or discouragement. What she is trying to do with Harley is HARD! But if she can be even somewhat successful (we're not talking about going to very high-level shows or anything), she will have to become a really good rider! Meaning she has to able to control an energetic force, work with him, not against him, and set him up for success. 

Your description of jumpers is exactly what I was told it was - which is why I think it makes more sense to steer her in that direction. She likes to jump and so does Harley. He doesn't have to exhibit a certain type of movement or "appearance" to be a successful jumper. She is liking the speed more and more, so won't be intimidated by it. She has a lot of work to do, but I think this is a more attainable goal than pleasure if she's going to keep riding Harley. And she does love him dearly, so replacing him is out of the question. 

He's scopey enough to clear low jumps. Has gone 3 feet, but we won't be starting there obviously. And maybe she'll never get there with him because of his age and her skill level. But maybe he can teach her a lot until the day comes that she has to find a new horse to ride. Or gets tired of competing.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Bottom line, I see ahorse that jumps well, but in that flat work, not really any great training, with the horse moving fast legged, and not truly collected, JMO


Did you watch the dressage portion in the second part of the video? If you skip ahead, you will see him in what I thought was a pretty collected frame. But maybe I'm wrong. While I have been around horses most of my life, I'm completely new to competing and all these different disciplines so not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing. Which is why I appreciate the thoughts of more experienced people!


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

1.00 -1.05 meters is low level jumpers here in the states...
So... for her to do recognized junior jumper classes she needs to ride a 3' course?
Eons of years ago when I was showing there were "baby jumpers" classes... 2' 3" fences maximum.
These were so much fun to watch...to root on anyone in the ring!
Fences, were verticals...simple fences, no crazy spreads allowed but lower heights, a full course of fences completed .
This was seen in more local shows, not the bigger recognized stuff...
A place where you could bring the horse who was not a "pretty" mover like the hunter but functional clean, clear and concise jumper...
This is the kind of class your daughter & Harley would of excelled..

I know you are in Canada so what does your local circuit have to offer for her?:think:
Any upcoming show prize-list with class listings?
:runninghorse2:...


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Did you watch the dressage portion in the second part of the video? If you skip ahead, you will see him in what I thought was a pretty collected frame. But maybe I'm wrong. While I have been around horses most of my life, I'm completely new to competing and all these different disciplines so not sure what I'm supposed to be seeing. Which is why I appreciate the thoughts of more experienced people!


Yes, my comments on the flat, from that second part.
He has a head set,is moving on, but what is lacking, is him really engaging behind, and rounding. Look as to how far he is tracking up behind, even moving on. He has not much lift that I can see, and chances are,w hen your daughter is riding him, trying to slow him at the canter by puling, he is really them dumping on the forehand, which is how race hroses run, to cover a lot of ground fast, versus with style
Again, think of slow being increased through more engagement behind, lift, and with the stride longer, but leg action itself becoming slower, as that horse 'uses himself more'
Far as direction-are there not pony club organizations where you live? They are sort of the English version of 4H to me, far as structured riding, with various levels the child can advance through
When my niece came out for a summer of trail riding in the mountains, when she was about 13, she fell in love with horses. After returning to Ontario, my brother bought her a horse, much like Harley, far as background and size
He put her in pony club, and she learned to ride small jumps, suitable for a rider at her level, plus some basic flat class lessons
Eastern Canada esp, seems to have pony club organizations, being more geared towards English riding, then out west, where 4H is the usual entry level for kids


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Acadianartist said:


> Yes, @*jaydee* she can shorten and lengthen his stride. They still need work, but have done a lot of this by working with poles. If you look at the jumping portion of the video (again, not my daughter riding), you see he is able to adjust his stride.
> 
> I don't think it's exactly impossible for Harley to move like an English pleasure horse, but it's asking him to do something that goes against his conformation and nature. He will always have energy. I admit, I'm fairly ignorant when it comes to what judges look for in these different disciplines, which is partly why I turned to this forum for opinions. But from what the coach says, from watching how the successful flat class riders did at the show, and from what others are saying here, Harley's just not the English pleasure type.


 It isn't a case of not being able to 'move' like an English Pleasure Horse - don't try to compare him with with the way APHA or AQHA move and perform though because he isn't one of those.
I watched his dressage bit at the end of the video and he looks fine so no doubt he can do it.
His problem isn't the movement, its the attitude. 
When he's on his own he's fine, stick him in a group of other horses all cantering around and his brain goes on vacation. Your daughter might be able to hold him in what looks like a short stride when he starts rushing but it isn't a collected stride if he's pulling as he'll be tense and braced.
It could be that he'll never change but he'll only get a chance to change if he's put into situations where he has to learn to deal with other horses cantering around. 
Maybe some group lessons would help, do you have any Pony Club or 4H groups that offer anything like that?
I will say that some never do 'get it'. You have to accept that if after everything you try he just can't.
Maybe Kodak with more schooling would be a better show ring horse?


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@horselovinguy, yes, that's exactly the kind of class she would be entering. The shows we go to have beginner jumper classes that start at 2.3". They're not rated for Equine Canada year end awards, but that really doesn't matter at this point. Here is the prize list of the show we just attended where she only did pleasure (flat) classes:

https://nbea.ca/Downloads/2017 GHS Prize list.pdf

What I'm hearing from @Smilie and @jaydee is that Harley might do ok at dressage, but won't ever excel at it. Makes sense that his last family sold him then. 

As for pony club, we have one locally, but without the ponies. I never understood that. The girls get together and do horse-related activities, but without any horses. Makes no sense to me, and my daughter wanted no part of it. They don't even organize rides, but they will do things like hold a grooming clinic, however, those are pretty rare. 

She rides in a group on schooling horses, but obviously that doesn't help Harley. So we've trailered to the coach's on occasion for a group lesson. She'll also be spending a week there with Harley for a camp, so he'll be ridden with other horses twice a day, every day. I suggested she try a few jumps there since most of the other girls are hunter/jumpers. Her coach also organizes lots of clinics. Our limitation is hauling since I don't have my own trailer and the coach is an hour away.

I do think the camp they will do together will give them a great headstart. And I talked to my daughter about the fact that she needs to put in the work to improve Harley's canter. This is her last week of school, so she told me after school is done, she wants to ride every day. I'm willing to ride with her. Kodak can use the work. We'll see if she follows through or not, but I think this last show was a hard lesson!

Thanks again for all your advice everyone. You made my mother's heart feel a little more hopeful that my daughter can find a way to pursue her horse hobby with Harley.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Ask your trainer to train your daughter to do spirals. She will work up to doing them at a canter, but it will train both Harley and her a whole lot about body control, and help him learn to carry more weight on his inside hind leg, which, if she does dressage, will improve those scores als. Spiral training will allow her to move him on and off the rail and slow and stop without the reins.....assuming, of course, that your trainer knows how to do them properly.

My riding kids showed Arabians at Open h/J shows, and did really well!!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Of course you don't expect Harley to move like an AQHA horse!
Ideally, at open shows, horses are not just judged horse against horse, but also as to how close they are to their breed standard, 
I therefore googled to see how Arabians go, in English pleasure-well that is out, as they go like Saddlebreds!
I then googled Arabian Hunter under saddle, and one can see how Harley is not quite there. Perhaps fine for the first two levels of dressage.
I do agree that he most likely gets hot, if he was always ridden in one horse events, and now has horses coming up on him. If he was never shown in rail classes, with other hroses-an entirely different ball game


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Of course it's possible. I'm not saying Arabians can never do well at this sort of event. Just that Harley doesn't, and really, at his age, and given the skill level of my 12 year old daughter, it doesn't make sense to me to try to change that instead of just working within his abilities.


----------



## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Didn't you say they (his previous owner) had Harley at second level? He is no slouch if he got that far in dressage. Maybe that is his forte. And it will improve your daughters skill set, and keep Harley limber as he matures.

He seems very game jumping, but he rushes the fences and I don't know if I would put a beginner jumper on him. His rushing makes him heavy, and it looks as if he crossed cantered after a rushed fence because he is out of balance. The rider in the video is holding him up, so to speak.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

sarahfromsc said:


> Didn't you say they (his previous owner) had Harley at second level? He is no slouch if he got that far in dressage. Maybe that is his forte. And it will improve your daughters skill set, and keep Harley limber as he matures.
> 
> He seems very game jumping, but he rushes the fences and I don't know if I would put a beginner jumper on him. His rushing makes him heavy, and it looks as if he crossed cantered after a rushed fence because he is out of balance. The rider in the video is holding him up, so to speak.


Yes, he was at 2nd level with very good scores. Enough to get provincial championship (but it's a small province, so probably not a lot of competition judging from the hunter/jumper shows we attend). 

He does rush the fences. Which is why we have always hesitated. But I don't think there's any chance of competing in jumping this year. I would want her to feel more comfortable by doing lots of canter work, and popping over one or two fences at lessons. Gradually, she could build it up to 4-5 fences, then a full course. But that's not something she'd be ready for until next summer, in my opinion.


----------



## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I strongly agree with @sarahfromsc. 

He is a lovely horse, though. I like him best in the dressage portion, though he looks like he is very game for jumping and will be better with some collection.


----------



## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

subscribing because my half-Arab does the same thing. Now she's gotten better since I got her but I can't use anything gentler than a Tom Thumb or she's off. When she's hyper her canter is terrible because she just wants to go and is not collected at all. When she calms down she'll do a very smooth, comfortable canter. It just takes work and practice.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Her coach mentioned that we could try another bit. If I remember correctly, the folks who rode him in jumping before us had him in a French twist. I looked up Tom Thumb bits, and understand they give a lot of leverage. He was in a D-ring snaffle and I switched him to a French link to encourage him to play with the middle piece and put his head down. 

I am torn on the bit thing. On the one hand, she's 12. Obviously, she's not going to have the strength of an adult. If a little more leverage on the bit can give her that little extra, maybe it's better to give her that. 

On the other hand, I do not want my daughter to take short cuts with Harley. He will come back with half halts even when he's going fast. She can still steer at those speeds, and can control the length of his stride. On good days, I have seen her do very well with him on the flat and over a jump. It can be done. The problem is that they're not consistent yet. They might have to do it several times before they get it right (ie, correct lead, good transitions, calm canter). 

Harley is an Arab and can get going fast, but he is 18 now (in the video he was 15 - they were wrong about his age by a year). Surely at his age he's going to start slowing down at some point? Or maybe not. 

So, any bit suggestions that would give her more control than a French link, but not be harsh?


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

So I looked at some different bits. 
I don't know anything about them @*ChieTheRider* - Just trying to get educated before I talk to my daughter's coach about bits. 
I don't think there's such a think as a French twist bit so I must have been mistaken about what they were using on Harley.There is a French link and some are twisted. Not sure what the twist does?

I tried to see what the rider was using in the jumping video and it looks to me like a snaffle. I don't see shanks. I do, however, see what looks like a piece of leather hanging down under his chin. Anyone have any ideas about that?


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

You already know my answer headed your direction...
_"Any bit used by uneducated hands or in the wrong hands can be cruel, unfair and unjust."
_A heavy handed rider can also be harsh...you need to be taught to ride with light contact and feel of a mouth, to caress the reins of communication not hang, haul and be abrupt with our communication.
Many times less will get you more when using those reins when riding.

Now, that said...horses going to shows..many get excited and more to handle, literally.
Changing out Harleys bit for _a show only_ so it is a "fresh" feel in his mouth might make him easier to rate when he is more highly charged....
Your daughter though can not lug, hang and pull but she will be armed with more bite from her hands connection and communication with a twisted bit versus a french link...
To ride in a "stronger" bit every day at home defeats the purpose though...Harley will become accustomed to that bit then and need stronger at a show...it can be a never-ending circle of harsher an harsher if not careful. 
Have you thought or tried to go back to that d-ring bit?
There is a difference in where the mouthpiece of a 3-piece sits, presses and "bites" than where a single joint bit presses and "bites" in communication.
Just changing back to his other bit might be enough change.
It isn't going to change Harley's exuberance, but might make him a easier horse to rate with less noticeable half-halts, hold and hanging on his face, bracing against him your daughter is doing. 
Your daughter though needs to learn to get off his face if she is "handy" and use her body, her legs to communicate better her wishes...
Now I am a adult, considerably heavier and stronger than your daughter and I get that...but I can ride and slow or speed my horse by how I post...rhythm and depth of that sit phase in a trot and sure can send them forward or sit down and slow down in a canter. 
Those are things she can be learning, should be learning and if not then her coach is doing you, her, and Harley a injustice of "hands only riding" not riding with body control, that body control being the riders helping to communicate with the horse. I _was_ being taught those fundamentals at her age...

So...
A Tom Thumb bit is more a western bit name not used English.
If she wanted a bit with similar properties as that... either a Kimberwicke or a Pelham ridden with 2-reins for finesse and cuing might be something to consider too.
The Tom Thumb is a shank bit and that provides leverage because of the way the bit also hangs from the headstall. It can come in a variety of mouthpiece configurations of straight bar, single joint snaffle, ported mouth and many other choices..same as our Pelhams and Kimberwickes do.
Like any shank bit, the longer the shank the more pressure is exerted to the horse with less hand force applying it.

OK..so you were googling as I was typing.
In English bits there are many types of snaffle mouthpieces.
You though are probably referring to a slow twist mouth.
There are others that are called corkscrews, knife-edge, off-sets in twists and regular mouth, a easy twist and a harder more faster twist design, this is only a few of the many choices..
Then add all of the different ring configurations and what they do for added control. 
Rings are not just for looks but aid in rider finesse and control.
Picking and fitting a bit to a horse is not just going to the store and picking something shiny off the rack...there is a reason for each part of any bit to be combined to make the finished product.
Another place to learn, do research and education of yourself before going the next step of putting it in your horses mouth. :wink:
You also ask about a leather strap on a snaffle bit used...
Sometimes you will see this if the horse gapes, opens their mouth, to help prevent pull-through of the bit, literally.
Horses gape for a variety of reasons...and you can see gaping mouths in many pictures of horses ridden and figure out why. Some horses just do this though because it is a bad habit...
I don't know what Harley's reasons for a leather strap is.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> Her coach mentioned that we could try another bit. If I remember correctly, the folks who rode him in jumping before us had him in a French twist. I looked up Tom Thumb bits, and understand they give a lot of leverage. He was in a D-ring snaffle and I switched him to a French link to encourage him to play with the middle piece and put his head down.
> 
> I am torn on the bit thing. On the one hand, she's 12. Obviously, she's not going to have the strength of an adult. If a little more leverage on the bit can give her that little extra, maybe it's better to give her that.
> 
> ...


The stop, or control, or headset....ANY of it, DOES NOT come from, or originate at the HEAD!! Repeat this, please, in your head, out loud, whatever it takes to ingrained it into your psyche. 

ALL of the above originate in the REAR leg. Once you and your daughter and your trainer UNDERSTAND that, then she will make progress. As long as you all are trying to control a forward Arabian with strength, you will continue to be frustrated. 

The very reason Harley would place well in dressage IS THE FORWARD. That is what the ENTIRE sport is built upon. Learn to control that rear leg with spirals and movements that teach the rear end to support the weight properly, and I will bet she will WIN those classes!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks horselovinguy. 

Yes, my daughter's coach is teaching her to use her aids. It just doesn't happen overnight, because for any rider, but especially a younger one, the tendency is to pull on those brakes! Her coach will go balistic on her if she sees her pull hard though. Keeps telling her to sit back. She still has a tendency to go forward when Harley speeds up. And yes, I know she has to do the opposite. But she says it doesn't work, and I can only argue with her so much. Hopefully her coach will be able to rectify this with lots of practice at summer camp, building up her confidence too. 

Thanks for explaining the different Western and English bits to me. We'll try going back to his D-ring snaffle rather than the O-ring French link. It might help a little. 

Also, to clarify, Harley isn't really different at shows. He does want to be part of the action. Keeping him in the back and hand-grazing him wasn't working when all the horses were in the warm-up area. We had to take him where the action was, but could hand-graze him there in his halter and lead rope. There were two stallions there (don't get me started on that! They parked their monster horse trailer right next to mine!), and he couldn't care less. I don't think he even speeds up more when there are horses cantering around him. He speeds up at home just as much. Cantering is what does it, not being in a show environment. He anticipates the canter, wants to go faster and faster, even at home. Not to a point where he's out of control and putting my daughter at risk! I want to emphasize that. She is not a daredevil, and she feels perfectly able to control his speed and stride. However, it's not pretty. She needs to learn to half-halt just enough to bring him back, use her seat and legs to get him to collect more, while still keeping enough movement to prevent him from breaking his stride. It's a lot to ask of a 12 year old girl! But I think she can get there, or at least, show significant improvement by the end of the summer.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> He speeds up at home just as much. Cantering is what does it, not being in a show environment. He anticipates the canter, wants to go faster and faster, even at home.


This is possibly because he is out of balance in his movement...
Pulling himself forward from his forehand, not pushing from his hind...he will need to keep getting faster, stronger to keep that "balance" feel he is lacking. :think:
That part of your comment fits securely with what greentree made mention of in her post...
Once you learn the mechanics of his body control, he will slow down, balance and collect and be a totally new horse to sit upon and ride...
You ride from the back forward, _not _forward back.
Right now your daughter is riding forward back and has minimal body control of Harley.
Get the instructor to teach her to control, to feel and work with his hind end, his push-off and she will have total control of her horse..
She should of learned to "feel" hoof placement, which leg just moved and where it is in relation to the balance of his body. Blindfolded she should learn these so she can't do anything but feel, listen through her body, her butt and her spine which foot is the first to move, how the body shifts in anticipation of movement and how when halted to square off instantly so the next footfall is set-up for optimum results.
Without this, she will struggle and work against Harley.
Instructors who really understand body mechanics know this is a building block of riding...
My sons instructor teaches her students, those around 8 years of age in riding lessons this. 
I know because sometimes it is me walking with the horse a blindfolded nervous student is astride. This is lunge-line work done at our lesson barn...
If your instructor doesn't know these principles, teach them so they are ingrained and a "you just know it" ....:shrug:
_Just some food for thought...
:runninghorse2:...
jmo...
_


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Interesting points. Thanks @greentree and @horselovinguy! I may try putting her back on the lunge line. 

I also find Harley REALLY leans in when he canters a circle. I have told her she needs to lean out (and so has her coach). But I'm assuming this is also an indication that Harley is not balanced at the canter. Her coach says part of the reason is that Harley hasn't been cantered enough (remember, she only started cantering him this spring really!) and just needs to improve his muscle and balance in the hind end so he can balance himself at the canter.


----------



## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

I for one believe that Harley could be successful in the hunter ring, IF you get that trot and canter like it was in the dressage portion of the video, there is no reason why he shouldn't do well! I have shown a half arabian for the past 10 years in 4h, open shows and the AHA circuit, and we were incredibly successful across the board, and he is no where near the Arabian hunter example that was posted. 

Hunter pleasure is judged off of a few things - consistency of gaits, control of the horse, ride-ability...like others have said, don't compare Harley to the AQHA pleasure classes, those are their own thing entirely. What I see with Harley is a horse that in local open shows, has a tremendous chance at being great! Just because he doesn't have the Arabian "typeyness" doesn't mean he can't do well, you have to find what works for him.

Unfortunately, he won't just "slow down" with age - Arabians go FOREVER. My boy just hit 19, and even though he takes a bit more time to warm up, when he is warmed up, he is ready to go! I know a 21 year old half-Arabian still competing in Country Pleasure, and she is still as hot as can be. I know a 25 year old purebred that even though he has always been slow and pokey, he will dump your bum on the ground if he is feeling it.

How long has your daughter been riding? I started training my horse at 10 years old, so the whole "she is only 12" is throwing me off. When I got my boy, he was a lot like Harley movement wise, but without the training that Harley has. I think your daughter could do it - transition work, whether on the lunge or undersaddle will help strengthen his canter. As a previous poster said, spirals! There are plenty of exercises to help slow down a horse.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> I also find Harley REALLY leans in when he canters a circle._*I have told her she needs to lean out (and so has her coach)*._ But I'm assuming this is also an indication that Harley is not balanced at the canter. Her coach says part of the reason is that Harley hasn't been cantered enough (remember, she only started cantering him this spring really!) and just needs to improve his muscle and balance in the hind end so he can balance himself at the canter.


Sorry, cop-out on the trainer!!
Harley knows how to canter...
He should be teaching your daughter how he can canter...

So, I *bolded* the part that hits me in the face...
Your daughter _does not_ "lean out" she gently steps down harder on her inside stirrup to offer balance of her and in her balancing of her she helps balance Harley...when cantering a circle.
If she leans, she is moving her upper body only...what about her lower trunk, butt and legs working with her. 
If your daughter takes her body mechanics out of align she is hindering, creating more issue Harley is trying to cope with as he balances. Yes, Harley is out of balance.
Body alignment is crucial for balancing of horse and rider...your daughters security in the saddle and being prepared for whatever the next foot fall brings...out of balance you eat dirt, period! _
How do I know that one.... :redface: off I went.:falloff:_
You made a mention a few posts ago that your "trainer/instructor" also can't slow or quiet Harleys way of travel...
:think:... I am beginning to wonder if although you "like" this person as a person you would do better with a different trainer.
Someone who has other ideas of how to work with Harley. Someone who may have more basic horsemanship knowledge to pass on to her students. Someone who knows those little things about footfall, in what order a horse moves off....a deeper understanding of pure riding principle and who can not just speak it but ride it...
I have a feeling Harley is_ not_ complicated to ride, but he was well-trained and wants to be helped to do his best...
That is adding the fine-tuning to your daughters repertoire of knowledge and understanding how, why and when to do those small things that builds the foundation and strengthens it strong, not build on a weak foundation that then crumbles or falters as difficult pieces get added to the equation.
_More things to think about... and speak with that trainer/instructor about.
:runninghorse2:....
jmo...
_


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If you're going to forget about the showing classes and concentrate more on dressage then the twisted snaffles and Tom Thumbs and all of those sort of bits aren't an option as they can't be used in dressage
I wouldn't even suggest the twisted snaffles for schooling as they don't lend well to the type of contact used in dressage and can confuse a horse too much.
I've never really found that older horses slow down unless they're struggling with health problems that limit their action in some way. They might not want to go for as long but a keen horse is always a keen horse. 
If she needs slightly better brakes then maybe try a Wilkie bit with a single or double jointed mouthpiece - its better than having to be constantly pulling on him when he gets strong


----------



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> Harley is an Arab and can get going fast, but he is 18 now. Surely at his age he's going to start slowing down at some point?


A good friend's gelding was 18 when he was the National Champion 100 mile endurance horse - as in, the top performer in 100 mile rides of any horse (of any age) in the entire AERC for that year.

A 26 year old gelding just finished the Old Dominion 100 last month in the top ten.

Both of our 18 year old geldings have 100s in the plans for this season..

Age is not a disease, so I wouldn't count on his age slowing Harley down any time soon.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@horselovinguy, I didn't express that very well. We're not telling my daughter to lean out, actually her coach tells her she should be straight even on turns. What I meant is that when he circles and leans in, she leans in instinctively, which causes him to fall in more, making his circles smaller and smaller. So instead of leaning in, she needs to shift her weight slightly to the outside, no? Not enough to offset her balance or Harley's, but to help him straighten out and avoid him trying to step under her by coming in further. 

Again, she's just a kid. Has been riding with this coach for a couple of years. She's improved tremendously from last summer, but has a lot to learn. Also, @ClearDonkey, I meant my daughter is only 12. The horse is 18. Maybe I didn't make that clear. I do think Harley has the buttons, my daughter just needs to learn to use them correctly. If she had it all perfectly figured out at 12, I wouldn't be in here trying to find ways to help her! 

We got Harley about 1.5 years ago. He has a big canter, and yes, even the coach felt it. Not that she couldn't ride him! Just that she felt it was a lot for my daughter to take on 1.5 years ago. So we started with walk/trot classes last summer. I cantered Harley on a lunge line. This spring, when the ground was firm enough, my daughter did some cantering with Harley, with and without a saddle (she's progressed to cantering bareback on lesson horses, and has been cantering them for about 2 years). So she went from walk/trot to being able to canter and gallop him while maintaining steering, control, and being able to bring him back. We just need to fine-tune things. When she does a lesson on Harley with her coach, by the end of the lesson, she does better at transitions, leads and controlling his canter. This is what I mean by not being consistent. I think she just needs a lot more practice on Harley. But some of that is necessarily going to have to be done at home so your thoughts are very helpful for that. 

As for the coach, having tried a few in our area over the years, and I strongly feel she is the best. At this show, she had about 6 students competing and they ALL placed first in their classes (everything from walk/trot to advanced hunter). It pains me to say this, but my daughter did the worst of all her students. Still, everyone was supportive and helpful, and her coach keeps reminding her of how far she's come since last summer. 

A big obstacle for her is that we can only really walk/trot with Harley from about December to April or even May since we don't have an indoor and get tons of snow. She does lessons on lesson horses in the winter, but they are nothing like Harley. Her coach has been progressively giving her more challenging horses to ride, including some that are more energetic like Harley. But the reality is that she has a lot of catching up to do in the spring. And she doesn't need to be able to compete at top levels, just give herself realistic goals and make a plan to achieve them. 

Will try to apply your suggestions along with the homework given to her by her coach when she rides at home.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

phantomhorse13 said:


> A good friend's gelding was 18 when he was the National Champion 100 mile endurance horse - as in, the top performer in 100 mile rides of any horse (of any age) in the entire AERC for that year.
> 
> A 26 year old gelding just finished the Old Dominion 100 last month in the top ten.
> 
> ...


hahaha... ok, my hope of him chilling out is unfounded it seems. He does like to nap more if that counts! And looks like he could doze off sometimes at a slow walk. But suddenly wakes up when things move on to faster gaits!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> If you're going to forget about the showing classes and concentrate more on dressage then the twisted snaffles and Tom Thumbs and all of those sort of bits aren't an option as they can't be used in dressage
> I wouldn't even suggest the twisted snaffles for schooling as they don't lend well to the type of contact used in dressage and can confuse a horse too much.
> I've never really found that older horses slow down unless they're struggling with health problems that limit their action in some way. They might not want to go for as long but a keen horse is always a keen horse.
> If she needs slightly better brakes then maybe try a Wilkie bit with a single or double jointed mouthpiece - its better than having to be constantly pulling on him when he gets strong


Thanks! Looking up Wilkie bits.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> If you're going to forget about the showing classes and concentrate more on dressage then the twisted snaffles and Tom Thumbs and all of those sort of bits aren't an option as they can't be used in dressage
> I wouldn't even suggest the twisted snaffles for schooling as they don't lend well to the type of contact used in dressage and can confuse a horse too much.
> I've never really found that older horses slow down unless they're struggling with health problems that limit their action in some way. They might not want to go for as long but a keen horse is always a keen horse.
> If she needs slightly better brakes then maybe try a Wilkie bit with a single or double jointed mouthpiece - its better than having to be constantly pulling on him when he gets strong


 Agree on the bits, and, twisted wires are nOT legal in any western show classes either, not even cavassons for that matter
Yes, some twisted snaffles are allowed in English classes though. I never could understand that, esp as horses are ridden on contact, and with a cavasson!
I have a twisted wire, which I might use short term, on a horse in training, that has become a bit heavy in a plain snaffle. That 'bit heavy', is not pulling, getting chargy but rather not being quite light enough, backed off that bit, as desired
Slowing down mentally on a horse that has been ridden in high adrenaline type events is very difficult. Even when you get them where they do relax, just as in any established habit that has been 're trained', to some degree, give the right stimulus, and they ramp back into their usual habit/way of going
I had ahorse, who I showed in games, reining and western riding, plus some cattle events. He won National flag picking, western riding, had hi points as cattle horse, games, reining, ect. We had also used him as a stallion for several years.
He would go along nice and calm, on a trail ride, until something flipped his switch, like other horses passing him at speed, ect
Yes, I could 'control' him, as he was very broke, but he would then almost lope in place, doing unasked flying lead changes every other stride, or he would start to jig. Even when he would again walk out normally, he remained tense, ready to 'go'
While breeding/bloodlines certainly play a part, how ans in what events the hrose was ridden, also play a hugh role, JMO
I have never seen a horse gamed, for instance, right from the time he was trained,who was never first shown in slow classes, that ever became a relaxed rail horse, regardless of breeding
Horses are creatures of habit!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

That does sound a lot like Harley @Smilie! I agree, he is unlikely to be a relaxed pleasure horse. 

As for the bits, I don't want to use anything overly harsh. I talked to my daughter's coach who says Wilkie bits are unlikely to be accepted in the shows we attend, so those are out. She does, however, have a nice collection of bits left to her by her mother, who used to breed Arabians. When my daughter and Harley do the week-long camp there, they will experiment with different bits to see if there's improvement. These would not be harsh bits, and would be accepted in any shows we would attend. This seems like the best possible solution to me, since my daughter can try them under her coach's supervision. As I've expressed before, her coach does not tolerate the kids pulling on a horse's mouth, but is not above trying to find a combination that is most effective for this team. 

In the end, I come back to my idea that Harley is either going to be too much for my daughter, or he will make her a really good rider. Knowing how stubborn my daughter is, and how she does not accept defeat (takes after her mom that way), I'm guessing the latter. In the meantime, I will just need to keep her safe. First thing on my list: buy her a jumping vest! Even if she's just going to pop a few fences at her coach's, I want her to be protected.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sounds like you have a good plan, and you are correct, sticking with a horse that is not too easy to ride, will make her a better rider in the end!


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> Interesting points. Thanks @greentree and @horselovinguy! I may try putting her back on the lunge line.
> 
> I also find Harley REALLY leans in when he canters a circle. I have told her she needs to lean out (and so has her coach). But I'm assuming this is also an indication that Harley is not balanced at the canter. Her coach says part of the reason is that Harley hasn't been cantered enough (remember, she only started cantering him this spring really!) and just needs to improve his muscle and balance in the hind end so he can balance himself at the canter.


EXACTLY!! Do not put her on the longe line, it only ENCOURAGES leaning. TEACH her to move him in a spiral, at a walk and trot.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ye, lunging can get a horse dropping his inside shoulder, unless done correctly.
You need to check the inside rein back a bit more then the outside, and then really make sure the horse drives up from behind
Some people also lunge with two lines, to address this same problem
You can try many methods to have horse learn to rate, with transitions being the one way, and also that circle exercise I mentioned, where you canter one or tow circle,stop, do a turn on the haunches, canter off again, opposite lead, no trotting steps.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Based off the dressage part of the video I can't see that Harley has a problem with his canter and if he was competing at Second Level, even if there wasn't a lot of 'competition' in the area he'd still have to know how to perform collected canter (and trot) as well as counter canter, travers, shoulder in, turn on haunches, lead change and a good free walk to show he was able to seek the contact and not working in a false frame.
He might be a little rusty and he might be the sort to rush his fences in the jumping ring but this is a pony that's been there and done the job.
His problem in the show ring is that he can't control himself when he gets with a group that's going at more speed than a trot and that's something that he's either going to learn to do by working in a group a lot more - or he isn't going to learn even if you do try that
Acadian - I think if you want to abandon the show ring classes and focus on dressage then look for a good dressage trainer - one that will get on him and then tell your daughter what she needs to be doing to improve herself so she can improve him. 
I would put him on the lunge without a rider to see how he canters in a circle when he's only got to think about his own self carriage - that would at least show you if the leaning in is down to rider error, which is something we should all consider when trying to correct a fault.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> Based off the dressage part of the video I can't see that Harley has a problem with his canter and if he was competing at Second Level, even if there wasn't a lot of 'competition' in the area he'd still have to know how to perform collected canter (and trot) as well as counter canter, travers, shoulder in, turn on haunches, lead change and a good free walk to show he was able to seek the contact and not working in a false frame.
> He might be a little rusty and he might be the sort to rush his fences in the jumping ring but this is a pony that's been there and done the job.
> His problem in the show ring is that he can't control himself when he gets with a group that's going at more speed than a trot and that's something that he's either going to learn to do by working in a group a lot more - or he isn't going to learn even if you do try that
> Acadian - I think if you want to abandon the show ring classes and focus on dressage then look for a good dressage trainer - one that will get on him and then tell your daughter what she needs to be doing to improve herself so she can improve him.
> I would put him on the lunge without a rider to see how he canters in a circle when he's only got to think about his own self carriage - that would at least show you if the leaning in is down to rider error, which is something we should all consider when trying to correct a fault.



Seems I have given the impression that Harley speeds up when in a group. He does not. He speeds up all the time, alone or in a group. It really doesn't make a difference. It's just that in a group, my daughter has the added challenge of dealing with a faster horse among slow horses. But that's something she can deal with - it's the speeding up part that is the issues, group or no group.

She's leaning towards jumping more than dressage right now. I told her she can take the rest of the summer to do different things and decide which direction she wants to go in for next year. Thing is, I don't know any good dressage coaches around here. We had one briefly, but she was a complete nut job. Her current coach teaches hunter/jumpers. She had students at this show who scored at least one first in at least one class. Some got a bunch of firsts! So I do think this coach has the skills to take them to that level if this is what my daughter wants. They just have to spend a lot of time together, which has been difficult so far, given that we live an hour away and don't have a trailer. 

Good point about cantering on a lunge line though! Will see how he does. He lunges very well, so I'll give it a try. First without a rider, then maybe with my daughter on him. 

Bottom line is that she still has to conquer this cantering issue before she can do any show jumping. It doesn't have to be dressage quality, but as you've all pointed out, she still needs to be able to control his speed and strides. I do think that's achievable. But then she has to do it in between jumps, which she's going to have to work on. She's been jumping for a couple of years now, but she's going to have to take her skill to the next level.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

So...I hear my daughter, my daughter, my daughter....

_*What happens if you ride Harley?*_
Does he do the same things to you he does to your daughter?
Does he not hold a steady pace?
Does he not listen to cues to slow him down and then hold that pace but become strong and a bull with trying to out-smart you?
Harley pushes the limits of what he knows he can get away with and does with your daughter?
Does Harley do this with and to you also?
_When is the last time *you* rode the horse..._:think:

I am wondering if Harley just is taking advantage of your daughter and needs to be "schooled" in manners of riding as he _knows_ he should and can do_ but _has been able to get away with not doing because your daughter is inexperienced and not quick yet to pick up on his "games" shall we say...
He may just need a stronger rider, weight and physical strength wise so when you cue with your aids he responds and complies as he should...

_You *have* another horse..._
A horse you say your daughter with a little work to form a partnership could do well with...
Maybe, just maybe your daughter needs to ride the other horse to get her confidence back that Harley is eroding, have a easy ride where more time_ *is* _spent on her, _*not*_ on Harley, Harley, Harley always needing correcting with his way of travel exuberance...:think:
Maybe you need to make that decision for your daughter in her best interest right now...:-|
_Just thoughts for your consideration..._
:runninghorse2:......
_jmo...._


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes horselovinguy, my daughter rides Harley. He is her horse, not mine. I've ridden him on occasion, but have rarely cantered him. My daughter is a far more advanced rider than I am, I'm afraid. At least from a technical point of view. She's been taking lessons for 6 years. Harley is a challenge for her, just as he's been a challenge for all his other previous owners. I've been around horses, don't mind riding Harley (in fact, he is a pleasure to ride), but do not have the ability to jump or do very much with him. The whole point of this post was helping my daughter, not putting myself on the horse. 

I do have Kodak, who was bought as a trail horse. Sadly, she was not as bombproof as we thought. My daughter has ridden her, and has actually found her fairly difficult to ride (she actually said "Hey mom, you're not doing so bad with her after all!" after she got on her). Not so much on trails - as long as she's not spooky, she does well on those - but in doing any arena drills. Kodak does not have the buttons that Harley does. She has done some barrel racing, and maybe roping, but I don't think she's ever gone over a jump and she would be totally unsuited to dressage work. She might become a good English pleasure horse in time, but that would require a lot of work. It seems to me that for showing, Harley is probably the better horse right now, because he has tons of show experience.

Even if I could get on Harley and get him to slow down (I'd remind you that my daughter's coach has ridden him, and has found him forward), it wouldn't necessarily help my daughter. They are going to have to figure this out together, under the supervision of a coach of course. I just want to be able to offer a little guidance when she rides at home. The coach has given her homework, and things to do with Harley when he is too fast, so that helps a lot. I'm hoping that spending a week at the coach's with Harley will help give my daughter some new tools. She'll be riding him twice a day there, every day, so they will have time to try different things until they find something that works, hopefully. 

I'm not about to tell my daughter she can't ride her own horse, a horse that she's been riding for a year and a half now! They have formed a partnership, and make a very nice pair. It's just that now they're moving up a level, and have some things to work out.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Was just a thought that different rider, different horse....
Did not mean to offend nor anger you ...

I thought your horse was also a horse who not only did trails but had some experience doing various arena work and your daughter could learn on.... 
:redface:_... my apologies.

:wave:...
:runninghorse2:...
_


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

horselovinguy said:


> Was just a thought that different rider, different horse....
> Did not mean to offend nor anger you ...
> 
> I thought your horse was also a horse who not only did trails but had some experience doing various arena work and your daughter could learn on....
> ...


Now it's my turn to apologize  But I'm Canadian - that's what we do! 

You didn't offend or anger me. Sorry if my response sounded that way. I know you are just trying to help. It is frustrating to me as a mother, and somewhat disheartening, to see my daughter struggle. I want to help her, but I have a limited range of skills myself (and am realistic enough to realize that). Kodak was supposed to be a potential second horse for my daughter, but didn't turn out that way. She is a sweet mare though, and we've decided to keep her as a trail horse. Maybe someday we'll see if she'll pop over a jump or two. But I don't have the skills to get her there, and my daughter is too young. 

I think she and Harley have the potential to be a great team - her coach told me that when the two of them click, they are unbeatable. They just need to be able to do it consistently. 

I guess my main goal in posting here was getting opinions on whether Harley could be a good English pleasure horse. I think the consensus is that he'd be better off at jumping or dressage, so that answers my question. I also appreciate all the suggestions for helping my daughter improve. 

Clearly, I'm biased, but I still think they make a very cute pair.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

And... NOT a collected canter, LOL.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Not a bad trot, but I don't know what happened to my daughter's leg here:


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

And an attempt at a collected canter (not quite there though - I've seen a much nicer canter than this on him). So if you wish to critique these, go ahead, but it's unlikely you'll be telling me anything I don't already know. Remember that I described this performance as a train wreck. I've seen them work together much better than this, but again, that's why I keep saying that consistency is the issue. On the day of this show, things fell apart because while they did well cantering together in lessons on a few occasions, it wasn't consistent, so when the pressure was on, it didn't go well.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sorry I misunderstood - I got the impression that he only had the problem when he was in the show ring (and out on trails when he also gets excited), not all of the time.
Even if she is going to jump him the dressage lessons would help her learn how to best get him between her hand and leg and control his canter without losing energy.
If he's going like a bat out of hell around a show jumping course then she's going to have a wreck at some point or other because the more he does it and finds he 'can' the worse he'll get
It looks like he's leaning over in #57 photo


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_This will be probably be my last post here. 
I will try to not make comments anymore.
You are not going to be happy with my words. 
I see a accident happening and your daughter getting hurt.. 
I do.
I pray it not be serious.  

_Sorry....I disagree with your thinking but understand trying to keep the interest of a 12 year old with "boring" stuff and flat-work _is_ boring compared to jumping,_ it is!_

So...you think riding a willing jumper who is hard to rate approaching a fence or once landed on the other side is safer than a horse who will duck out or stop if not ridden to a fence base and pushed, released and sent to take-off...
You are referring to the ability to control the horses forward movement, whether lesson horse or Harley, she has difficulty controlling and riding to a fence base, and in Harley's case she has difficulty controlling him after a fence. 
Different parts, same task undertaken...riding a jump.

We have very different ideas of what is safe or not..
If your daughter is anticipating that fence so the school horse dumps or ducks out on her as she drops the horse or gets ahead of the motion...she is not riding she is a passenger.
Her "form", her riding position is weak.
So instead we have Harley...
Your daughter is riding a horse who she has great difficulty controlling..._fact._
She _can't_ canter him without him being strung out, breaking stride, being strong or fast or she hauling, bracing and working against not with him _is_ a problem.
She has trouble at the trot too if you are really honest. 
Jumping the small amount she has done with Harley, does not give her the knowledge to feel, to correct if Harley is doing wrong...and he is with her.
Your daughter barely knows what it feels like herself..jumping a fence correctly let alone a line of fences.
For your daughter learning to do it wrong, learning bad habits that undermine her foundation of learned is just not safe...:sad:
I'm sorry she _*is*_ a beginner rider. 
She rides a difficult, strong willed horse with issues she can't handle. She is only solidifying his doing it his way, which is wrong if he is not controllable for his rider.
Her cantering once in a while correctly does not work...it needs to be consistent as _you have written._
So, whether trotting or cantering to the fence that horse is strong. So she braces and hauls not works his body to make him work himself into a correct frame forward of collection, balance, execution of jump, bascule over the fence, landing and moving off in a controlled frame.

I've watched the videos... I've looked at the pictures...all that you have presented. 
Your daughter needs to jump with her instructor giving instruction to safeguard her, keep her form correct and secure.
I get she is 12 years old... 
She is a child riding a powerful horse with quirks...

Eyes, educated eyes need watching. 
If she gets into trouble are you going to be able to yell out instruction that will save her butt or watch in horror, running to pick up the pieces..
Do you ride well enough to know, to see where her problems start, to head them off, to tell her to pull off the fence and go around?
If you can answer honestly yes to that then you should be her instructor and she take lessons and guidance from you. _ I seriously mean that..._
Don't always rely on Harley to be a clean jumper, to not run out or off....he is a animal and as one will take advantage of the rider...someplace, somewhere, somehow...
Please be really careful it is not on your watch it happen.
You _know_ you have a horse who is difficult for your daughter to ride.
Please really consider keeping those feet on the ground not going over fences unless her instructor is on-hand watching for now.
She's going to riding camp...let her jump during that time where her instructor is watching. 

I know my opinion is not wanted as it is not in favor of what you want to hear...
My opinion though comes from being a parent, one with a child who rides. 
This parent rides too..
_I understand the great risks.
_ :runninghorse2:.... 
_jmo..._


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Horselovinguy has great advice in the last post. If your daughter is bored, scatter poles around your arena and have her incorporate trotting and cantering to the base of the poles into her flatwork. The idea is not to jump the poles, but to have your daughter use the poles to concentrate on balance and straightness, and then at the canter maintaining a consistent rhythm and pace.


----------



## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

4horses said:


> The conformation of most Arabians makes them suitable for saddle seat, dressage or jumping. Not pleasure classes. They do not move in a flat kneed manner, nor do they naturally have a good level headset.


Arabians are judged differently in pleasure classes. If you look up videos online, you will see this. The headset is supposed to be very archy, with a lot of hooky-ness. The flat kneed movement is beginning to be frowned upon - a lot of the time you now see actual Arabian Hunter horses with slightly weighted shoes to show some action. I will continue to stand by that this horse could do pleasure, it's just a matter of getting the correct headset and working on that canter.


----------



## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I thought what you thought: That's not what Arabians are geared for, bred for. Having owned a half-Arabian for a while now, I can say this would be like using a Maserati as a golf cart.


It bums me out seeing this opinion on here, especially about my breed of choice. Arabians are versatility machines, they aren't just cookie cuttered into only things that are a bit 'crazier'. I have done it all with my half Arabian - speed, jumping, pleasure, eventing, bareback... Literally any class offered I would do. I can go directly from a speed class, change into his pleasure tack, and win a pleasure class. There is no reason why Harley can't do english pleasure and dabble in jumping and maybe do some gaming and what not.

I personally think ruling a certain class out due to the horse isn't a valid reason, it's just the lack of effort being put into the training. When I brought my horse home, I was told he would never do great in pleasure shows. Well, my wall of blue ribbons says otherwise. Put the work and effort into the horse, you'll get results, especially with an Arabian.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Well, I'm done posting in here. @horselovinguy, you need to find a new hobby than bashing people on here. I have been patient. That's over now. 
@ClearDonkey, thanks for your support. I agree that Harley could be good in a pleasure class. He may well become that horse. Not that anyone in here will here about this because have I mentioned? I'm done posting in here.


----------



## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

One rein stops aren't just for uncontrollable horses. They actually work very well in slowing a fast horse down because again, they get stopped so often that they learn to wait for the rider to cue them to go faster. If you (or your daughter) is consistent with this understandably boring exercise, it WILL slow the horse down. My Appaloosa Dreams is quite the mover. He's never been uncontrollable, but when you put your leg on he is GOING somewhere. When I was first breaking him, the one rein stop and cruising exercises were very helpful, as he'd interpret added calf pressure as a cue to head into the next county. Over the course of 12 days I did probably a million one rein stops (I seriously think this is a pretty close estimate) and now I can put a little leg on and he'll walk. Until I add more calf pressure, then he'll trot. And he'll keep trotting until I squeeze a bit harder, then he'll lope. And he'll lope until I tell him to stop, without rushing, without trying to break any land speed records, nice and calm and relaxed. 

Of course Harley is your horse not mine, and you can do with him what you please, but if he were mine I would put two weeks' worth of one rein stops on the speedy ****** and then come back and take another look at his canter. I also agree that the basics have to be learned before moving on any further. I don't have spawn so I can't offer any advice on keeping your daughter interested ... but I can say that truly great horsemanship comes from slogging through all the ugly, boring, omg-I'm-going-to-kill-myself-if-I-have-to-do-this-one-more-time stuff. Like the one-rein stop idea above. After about day 3 I'm ready to strangle myself with Dream's lead rope. But I push on and keep at it until Dreams has it down solid. Then we can move on to the fun stuff like rollbacks, sidepassing and counter cantering. 

Again, just my two cents.

-- Kai


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> Well, I'm done posting in here. @*horselovinguy* , you need to find a new hobby than bashing people on here. I have been patient. That's over now.


I thought I was done too Acadian..
If you want bashing look someplace else...
I'm not back-patting you anymore....
9 pages and 86 posts of people offering commiseration, helpful tips and if you call it criticism, so be it.
*I call it the way I see it.*

This horse is more than your family, you or your daughter can handle competently...fact.
There are issues riding in a ring, at a show, on trails, and loading on a trailer with this animal & possibly more unspoken.
Astride or on the ground...
So many of the things you and your daughter want to do is problematic...
There is a pattern...
Fact....

Seeing it from the outside in, with emotion taken out of the equation facts speak loud and clearly...
Till you face that problem head-on and decide a course of action, it will persist.
The ball is totally in your court to shoot and score or miss..

You have a problem.
One you know how to fix or not....

I wrote a lot and erased it, there is no purpose.. :|

_Oh...and don't worry about "reporting" my post. I will save you the trouble and send it off myself.
It is *not* bashing, it is* not* attacking. 
It is being honest.
It *is* putting fact on the table, you read it and did not like it...fact!__
:runninghorse2:*....
*as always...jmo!
_


----------



## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

updownrider said:


> Horselovinguy has great advice in the last post. If your daughter is bored, scatter poles around your arena and have her incorporate trotting and cantering to the base of the poles into her flatwork. The idea is not to jump the poles, but to have your daughter use the poles to concentrate on balance and straightness, and then at the canter maintaining a consistent rhythm and pace.


To be clear, I was agreeing with HLG's post #79.

I am disappointed that you have left a thread because of one poster, a thread that many other people have taken their time to give thoughtful and useful advice, including me.


----------



## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

@Acadianartist If you stick around, I am working on putting some videos of a pure Arabian that I put a month of training on...He started out very strung out and within a month there was tremendous progress. I'd love to offer encouragement just because not enough people bring Arabians to pleasure shows!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

ClearDonkey said:


> @*Acadianartist* If you stick around, I am working on putting some videos of a pure Arabian that I put a month of training on...He started out very strung out and within a month there was tremendous progress. I'd love to offer encouragement just because not enough people bring Arabians to pleasure shows!


 I took an unbroken 8 year old Arabian stallion (had him castrated as he was too aggressive to be safe) and in eight months was competing in ridden Arabian classes (UK) at County level, he competed at a few local level classes and behaved perfectly before that so I know it can be done.
The first big difference is that I started out from scratch with a horse that hadn't been ridden before by anyone which is always easier than trying to fix other people's mistakes.
The second (and most important) difference is that I was a young adult, qualified to BHS level who already had years of good experience under my belt of working with young horses and problem horses 
I've already said on this thread that its possible to re-train most horses, the retraining racehorse programs are delivering excellent results that prove that but even so I've had some horses that I've had to say 'not suitable for this job' and look for another one that they will fit nicely into. 
Its that old 'square peg into a round hole' thing.
For me it should always be about what the horse enjoys doing because if they don't they will never excel at it.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

greentree said:


> The stop, or control, or headset....ANY of it, DOES NOT come from, or originate at the HEAD!! Repeat this, please, in your head, out loud, whatever it takes to ingrained it into your psyche.
> 
> ALL of the above originate in the REAR leg. Once you and your daughter and your trainer UNDERSTAND that, then she will make progress. As long as you all are trying to control a forward Arabian with strength, you will continue to be frustrated.
> 
> The very reason Harley would place well in dressage IS THE FORWARD. That is what the ENTIRE sport is built upon. Learn to control that rear leg with spirals and movements that teach the rear end to support the weight properly, and I will bet she will WIN those classes!


I would like to take the lisence to modify the idea , the good idea, put forth by this member.

The stop does not originate in the mouth, it originates in the MIND. 

In all these lengthy and knowledgeable discussions and advice, no one has venture to talk aobut the real issue; what's going on in Harley's mind? WHY is he running off like that? Why is he resistant to being asked to slow down? Why does he get strong around the fences?

I would guess that he has some history that makes him revert to a state of anxiety when he starts cantering. some might say it's just Arab exuberance, but rushing at the canter, head tossing, and resisting the 'ask' to stop are all something that say "anxious horse". Now, some horses get anxious from time to time. Heck, most of all of them do, if there are circumstance to cause that. But, Harley is consistently anxious/rushy about cantering. 

Therefore, something is making him always anxious about it. It could have been that his natural exuberance was met with hard hands, or that he WAS rushed, even more by a rider, or that he was never allowed to go, or that he is not given enough to think about and has that brain my teacher calls a 'b-b in a boxcar'. But, I guarantee you, collecting him more, or changing his bit, or focussing solely on his hind leg for pushing off into the canter are things you do once you have his mind with you.

I would wonder how he is handled at home. is he pushy? is he well lead by his humans? will he accept direction in all sorts of ways? can you get him thinking about something, like how to step his way through a bit of jumble of poles? how to back up on a circle, how to turn on the haunches? I know I just said one accesses the mind first, but getting his mind to move his feet as YOU suggest, and having it such that he has to think his way through it will help him slow down and THINK.

Another member suggest spiraling, and I agree that that would be a helpful tool. in such a case, if Harley is cantering and starts to accelerate, you LET HIM, but you start him onto a smaller and smaller circle. no yanking. jsut open the inside rein and invite him to circle/spiral inward as fast as he wants. He WILL slow down, at which time you just open the rein and LET him go straight. 

Eventually, he will learn that speeding up will lead to tight circles, which he does not like. going straight at a steady pace will be his own reward.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Having watched the video again and again, this is a horse that has beeen ridden from the hand and not the leg. Rarely in that test was the rider's leg on his side. A couple of times he did use himself a bit better from behind but mostly it was from the hand. 
Even with the extended walk on a loose rein he did not really open his shoulders and walk freely, a sure sign he is use to the hands being controlling. 

He looks a fun horse, as the old saying goes, 'You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.'


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Sigh.... 

I don't want to argue. I am very tired of that. 

Nor do I want to be the person who storms out of the room. Though I did just that. It was better than what I would have written at the time. True, I don't feel I should justify every single one of my decisions to a stranger on the Internet. I prefer to make those decisions based on the input of horse professionals I know around me, and have done so. 

I'm not dismissing anyone's opinion. The unpleasant part of the Internet is that unsollicited opinions will come along, they are par for the course. But there comes a point when they cease to be productive. 

I am not interested in being micromanaged. The original purpose of this post was to get opinions on whether or not Harley was suited to English pleasure. While I agree that he may become that horse eventually, I heard from several people that perhaps it is not his strong suit.

I have allowed my daughter to jump him up to 2.3". She rides under the supervision of a coach once a week, and then practices at home with me, wears a safety vest and of course, a helmet. When I was her age I did whatever I wanted with my horse without any adults around, much less a coach. He is fast, yes. But he takes care of his rider. She is more than capable of sailing over those jumps, having jumped an entire course before, though on a different horse. She is 12, but has been riding since she was 6. 

I have stated over and over that there are times when the two of them are perfect at the canter. That if they could just become consistent at that, they would be unbeatable (the actual word her coach used). She is still challenged by his energy. No surprise - she is 12. We are continuing to work at controlling that canter. Perhaps that's not the right phrasing. At NO POINT is she ever out of control! My daughter is no daredevil. She, much like her mother, is quite the opposite, a control freak. She can stop him anytime. But there is a difference between that, and getting him to canter slowly. She completely understands that she cannot ever jump a course until she achieves that. But now that she has had the rush of flying over those jumps (never even coming close to falling btw), her 12 year old mind is focused on a clear goal. 

That goal may change. But I'm not going to change it for her because a stranger on the Internet said so. 

@updownrider I have read your suggestions and have taken them in consideration. 

@ClearDonkey I look forward to seeing those vidoes.

@jaydee yes... Harley loves jumping. So much. There is such potential in this pair. I agree it is possible to retrain horses, but we do not have that expertise. However, my daughter has more skill than I ever had, and perhaps in a few years, if Harley is still up for it, she can take him there. We shall see. In the end, this is about a mother wanting her daughter and her amazing horse to really connect and be the best team they can be. I need help to do that. While I have appreciated all the help from this forum, I think in this case, those who are on the ground working with them on a daily or weekly basis need to make that assessment.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@tinyliny great question. Why exactly DOES Harley want to go fast? Having an anxious horse (Kodak), I can say with confidence that it is not anxiety. It is most likely what you describe as exuberance. He loves to canter, just like he loves to jump. 

There's no head tossing. No disconnect from the rider. He is still listening, but he really WANTS to go! His ears perk up, he is happy. 

On the ground, he is confident, and has been pushy in the past, especially with my daughter because she wasn't as strong as an adult. To give you an example: he is food-motivated and would try to eat when she would lead him over a grassy area. We had to put a chain under his chin and I had to teach her to correct him anytime he attempted it. She can now lead him around grass confidently, but that took a while. Her confidence is growing as she physically grows too. 

Harley just really loves to run. But will never bolt, refuse, turn away from a jump. In fact, I think that in his little 14.2 mind, he can jump 8 feet. I swear, he thinks he's invincible. 

But he's not rude, no. We can get him to move his haunches, move sideways, etc. He is, however, supremely confident. 

Also, we are working on the spiraling! Not only does it help slow him down at the canter, it is also great for bending. His abilty to bend on his bad side isn't great, though he's fine on his good side. We had our equine massage therapist out who said his whole right side was stiff so that probably didn't help (he fell in the paddock tearing around like a colt in mud). We are also continuing to do pole work, which is something we've been doing since early spring. He loves it and it keeps his mind engaged. Putting a pole about 9 ft from the jump helps prevent him from getting too much speed. Poles help us "frame" his canter in the corners, and keep him focused. He is a highly intelligent horse that likes a challenge. 

The last thing I'd like to say is that because we've been riding every single day, we are seeing huge improvement in Harley's fitness level. I do think his ability to use his hindquarters in the canter was a significant hindrance when he wasn't being cantered a lot. The jumping is also really helping. He looks great, and is moving in a more balanced way. We are far from having reached our goal, but then, where would the fun be in that?


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I;ve been away for awhile and am not making any comments about Harley, as the horse and girl seem to be enjoying each other, and have 'eyes on the ground'

My comment is merely in response to 4Horses projecting the idea that Arabian HUS horses are expected to move like stock horses, and that is not true
Yes, stock horses are expected to move flat kneed ,with a level topline, but Arabians never have been.
Each breed has it's own standards for different events> Arabians are also not built to move with either flat knees or a level topline
Harley is fine, far as carriage, head, ,neck, ect, and just needs the canter worked on, as per some of my former suggestions, to eventually be competitive in English pl. JMO, and good luck
A child happy with her horse, enjoying riding is a win win, any time!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This is an Arabian hunter under saddle
(I looked up Arabian english pl and it apparently resembles saddle seat


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@Acadianartist 

thank you for the detailed description of Harley. He just sounds like a really neat horse, though not simple. You gotta love that kind of horse! I'm glad to hear that the spiraling is helpful.

I think , overall that you just have to work with a horse that has a huge engine, and employ strategies for helping him be ok with not accelerating out of his own state of mindfullness. And, until you daughter feels competent riding him even when he gets too hot, keep the jumping work to only one jump at a time, or two, but not a whole course. That gives her a chance to ease him down after the jump.

Time and hours in the saddle , and whatever safety equipment you can apply for now, will make him into a calmer horse. doing anything you can to get him thinking about things, instead of just running , might help. Along with him having the chance to go out there and run to his heart's content in the field, at turn out.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Years ago I taught a woman who owned an Arab. They were good together but when it came to jumping he was 'hot' 

"Ah," thinks I, "Grids building up to complex grids will slow him down." 

None of it, he would race through a grid of great complexity without turning a hair. 

Thenowner went on a course with a renowned trainer and he just laughed when he saw the horse race down the line of fences. He wasn't worried about it at all amd said that many Arabs were like that but clever enough to keep themselves out of trouble.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Smilie said:


> This is an Arabian hunter under saddle
> (I looked up Arabian english pl and it apparently resembles saddle seat
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkKHqDp6Eh4


Country English Pleasure, English Pleasure and Park are 3 different Saddleseat division in the Arab show rings. CEP horses have animation but are the least high stepping of the 3, EP much higher knee action and animation and Park are the highest and most animated. Hunter Pleasure horses in the Arab ring are WAAAAY different than in the hunt world or other breed shows. When I first got into Arabs I went to Scottsdale to see what their shows were all about, and Scottsdale is about the best of the best. I sat all afternoon in the sun at the Wendell Arena waiting for Hunter Pleasure to go. I never saw what I thought was a hunter horse. Their style was so different from what I was used to riding/seeing in open shows that I missed it completely. I finally asked someone when the HP horses were supposed to go and was told they had been, the last 4 classes. 

At that point I knew I was taking up Western. Don't know about up in Canada, but down here an Arab wouldn't have a hope in an open show's HP class, they are SO different.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Great video @Smilie! At about 2:37, the horse gets a little more excited. That's Harley right there. But overall, this horse is nicely controlled. Movements are not exactly what judges around here are looking for, however. We live in a small area where shows are pretty open (sometimes even combining English and Western) so I doubt judges would know enough to apply different standards to different breeds. Even if they did, we don't do breed shows, so he will be compared to QH and those types. 

Again, I'm not saying it's impossible. But Harley doesn't look happy to do English pleasure, and it is a constant battle, which is no fun for a 12 year old.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> Years ago I taught a woman who owned an Arab. They were good together but when it came to jumping he was 'hot'
> 
> "Ah," thinks I, "Grids building up to complex grids will slow him down."
> 
> ...


Haha... yes, this made me laugh. This is EXACTLY like Harley. He relishes those jumps. Putting down poles helps a little, but isn't a magical solution. The only solution I can see is for them to do lots of cantering, and keep doing a jump at a time so my daughter can continue to work on her position. 

We've also noticed that if she slows him down too much before a jump - like if she trots in for example - he will do a more "vertical" leap. He seems to think he has to launch himself straight up! That's not easy to sit, so it's best if she approaches anything over 2' at a slow canter, and keeps the trotting in for cavalettis and low cross rails. 

The most she's done on him so far this summer is a cavaletti + a low jump. They did well on that, but for now, it's mostly flat work and 2-3 jumps at the end, done one at a time. Lands on the canter (we are practicing landing on the right lead), then slows him back down to a trot, and walk before jumping again.

Today we've removed the jumps from the paddock for the flat work portion, and may or may not set them up at the end. We find that having the visual of the jump when he's doing flat work gets him excited. Her coach wants her to canter large, then trot circles at each end for transition work. If she wants to do a jump or two after that, I will let her. She has not come off him once, ever. Even on his ridiculously high flying leaps. Her form isn't perfect, but she has some stickiness! 

Her next show is July 23rd, but she will not be jumping. It's a schooling show, and her coach sets up a course of poles though, which is a great way to teach the beginners to memorize a course without actually having to jump. They can complete it at the walk or trot. She'll also do English pleasure and command, but I've told her not to expect to place. It's just good practice for Harley. Oh, and they have fun classes like costume and bareback class (she has to ride him bareback without losing a piece of paper under her tigh). 

Off to ride...


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm glad you have returned Acadian...

I made a promise to myself to stay out of your posts and I will.
I just came to say _"glad to see you return."_
Now, I bid you :wave:

:runninghorse2:....


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Great video @Smilie! At about 2:37, the horse gets a little more excited. That's Harley right there. But overall, this horse is nicely controlled. Movements are not exactly what judges around here are looking for, however. We live in a small area where shows are pretty open (sometimes even combining English and Western) so I doubt judges would know enough to apply different standards to different breeds. Even if they did, we don't do breed shows, so he will be compared to QH and those types.
> 
> Again, I'm not saying it's impossible. But Harley doesn't look happy to do English pleasure, and it is a constant battle, which is no fun for a 12 year old.


That is too bad about open shows in your area! I used to show at our local open shows,as well as on the ApHC circuit, as they were great schooling shows
I showed against one Arabian that was a really nice rail horse, and he went in the frame of his breed, and we often exchanged first and second at the monthly open shows
At any rate, don't try to make him go like another breed. Some day your daughter might show him breed, and he should go like he needs to, at the shows that count


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I might be wrong but I was under the impression that Harley isn't a purebred Arabian - or at least not registered or lost his papers so not eligible for breed classes
Either way - while I recognize that showing an Arabian or Arabian type against horses that are more typical for the class is always going to be a challenge, Harley's mindset is also not suited to that type of thing by the sound of it.
I showed Arabians in the UK for a while and the one I had loved the ring - though he got way too excited about things like the UK version of Hunter Paces even though you could gallop him on open land with a group of horses at home. 
For a horse to do well in any sort of showing class they have to enjoy it - a horse that finds it boring is just as much a negative as one that gets too anxious or hyped up about it


----------



## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Acadian - I am glad you came back to this thread. Harley may not be "perfect" for the English pleasure but as you have stated you have talked with your daughter and as long as she is OK with not winning every pleasure class - then go for it! 

I grew up with a 3/4 Arab and 1/4 AQHA gelding. He was my sisters horse. Chico was the smartest horse we had ever owned. And he could get HOT - and he jumped just as you describe Harley - except Chico was so smart he would jump out of the pasture to eat greener grass and jump back in when he felt like it. He would run a barrel or pole pattern without a rider on his back, he could do sliding reining horse stops that made people gasp. Or he would go into into an English pleasure class and bounce like Tigger instead of trot or lope. My sister loved this horse and could and would do anything on him. She rode him western, English and bareback - mostly as local 4-H shows. They never won a lot of ribbons as he was the ugliest Arab mix ever created (think HUGE AQHA butt, narrow Arab chest, Arab dish to his nose on a LONG AQHA face - and the longest ears of any horse I've ever seen)

When we grew up you rode what you had and rode it in whatever class you wanted. We were just happy to have a horse and go to a show.

I hope your daughter has fun with Harley and shows him in any and all classes that she wants to. That is what being young and having horses should be about. And since you have a great trainer - the shows sound even more fun


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Am I the only one who watches the Arabian hunter under saddle videos and thinks that 1. horses are all behind the vertical and 2. Arabians look dumb with braided tails (remind me of cows)?


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Avna said:


> Am I the only one who watches the Arabian hunter under saddle videos and thinks that 1. horses are all behind the vertical and 2. Arabians look dumb with braided tails (remind me of cows)?


#1 Yes they are, that is the headset they are trained for. 

#2 Until someone on here said something about braiding all the way down the tail bone, I had forgotten that others braided tails differently. I think they do it all the way down the tail bone because IDEALLY they should have a tail that drags the ground. Don't ask me why someone would want a hunter with a tail that drags.....LOL!


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I think your daughter and Harley are doing just fine. 

If anything, I would have suggested to do MORE ride time than your initial plan of 3xweek, which you are doing. And of course, it is helping. More time in the saddle is always more beneficial. 

My Red is very much like Harley. I never have to ask that horse twice to go faster. Never. He is always ready and willing to go faster. He's not mean or naughty but he does ride BETTER when he gets ridden every day. He's rather "spicy" when he has time off. That's just how he is. And I'm sure it will always be that way. 

So ride, ride, ride, ride! She'll get that canter better the more she rides and the more she canters. If she needs to work on the canter, then canter!

And a couple of 2 foot jumps at the end of a ride every day sure aren't going to do damage. They aren't super high and you aren't doing very many. Don't worry about that.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> #1 Yes they are, that is the headset they are trained for.
> 
> #2 Until someone on here said something about braiding all the way down the tail bone, I had forgotten that others braided tails differently. I think they do it all the way down the tail bone because IDEALLY they should have a tail that drags the ground. Don't ask me why someone would want a hunter with a tail that drags.....LOL!



Well. I guess I will never understand competitions.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Avna said:


> Well. I guess I will never understand competitions.


LOL! I don't always either.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I understand the UK showing classes but have still a lot to fathom out with those in the US

They are so very different!


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Probably it is the arbitrariness which gets me. Don't you know that in this class you can only wear a pink coat with velvet lapels? You may as well not enter if you aren't wearing one. And where are your toe bells? You must have your toe bells, and of course your horse must carry one ear forward and one ear back, representing the cautious and watchful attitude required in the steppe environment. Usually that's accomplished through surgery, but don't let anyone catch you at it, it's supposed to be natural to the breed. There's a vet who can produce the effect without any scarring!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I might be wrong but I was under the impression that Harley isn't a purebred Arabian - or at least not registered or lost his papers so not eligible for breed classes
> Either way - while I recognize that showing an Arabian or Arabian type against horses that are more typical for the class is always going to be a challenge, Harley's mindset is also not suited to that type of thing by the sound of it.
> I showed Arabians in the UK for a while and the one I had loved the ring - though he got way too excited about things like the UK version of Hunter Paces even though you could gallop him on open land with a group of horses at home.
> For a horse to do well in any sort of showing class they have to enjoy it - a horse that finds it boring is just as much a negative as one that gets too anxious or hyped up about it


You are correct @jaydee, Harley is not registered. He was an accident, from a prebred Arabian sire and an Arab/QH mare. Honestly, it wouldn't matter anyway, since there aren't any Arabian breed shows in our province that I'm aware of. So we'll be competing against QH, thouroughbreds, and whatever else is out there. Which is why I felt like jumper would be a good fit. Unlike any other class, there isn't a specific "look" you have to achieve. You don't even have to braid. If he can complete the course in good time, that's all that matters. 

But of course, we have a long way to go before we can do that. Even though form doesn't matter for jumpers, it matters a whole lot to our coach. And for good reason. So pole work and flat work it is for a while, with a couple of low jumps thrown in at the end for fun and to stay limber.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Avna said:


> Probably it is the arbitrariness which gets me. Don't you know that in this class you can only wear a pink coat with velvet lapels? You may as well not enter if you aren't wearing one. And where are your toe bells? You must have your toe bells, and of course your horse must carry one ear forward and one ear back, representing the cautious and watchful attitude required in the steppe environment. Usually that's accomplished through surgery, but don't let anyone catch you at it, it's supposed to be natural to the breed. There's a vet who can produce the effect without any scarring!


Hahaha... love that sense of humer @Avna. 

I have to say, the idea that I won't have to braid for jumpers is a big plus in my book. Although I think that for the shows my daughter does in the next few weeks, she'll do every class she can sign up for (except jumping classes). I encouraged her to do that, but not to think of how she places. She told me that if she could do well in one or two classes, she didn't care if she didn't do well in the others. We both agree that it's good experience for Harley and herself regardless of whether they get a ribbon. As long as she can have that attitude, and look at this with a long-term vision, I think they will may have their day to shine eventually.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

horselovinguy said:


> I'm glad you have returned Acadian...
> 
> I made a promise to myself to stay out of your posts and I will.
> I just came to say _"glad to see you return."_
> ...


No hard feelings @horselovinguy. Moving on.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Avna said:


> Am I the only one who watches the Arabian hunter under saddle videos and thinks that 1. horses are all behind the vertical and 2. Arabians look dumb with braided tails (remind me of cows)?


I cheat a little and only braid about 3/4 of the way down the dock. A groom told me that was good enough for local classes, and it doesn't look so ridiculous. Not sure it would fly in a big show, but last summer they got lots of firsts so it didn't seem to be an issue. I agree, they look a little bizarre like that.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

beau159 said:


> I think your daughter and Harley are doing just fine.
> 
> If anything, I would have suggested to do MORE ride time than your initial plan of 3xweek, which you are doing. And of course, it is helping. More time in the saddle is always more beneficial.
> 
> ...


My last of a series of replies - sorry! Yes, daily riding is making a difference. We're both loving it (I ride Kodak, though I spend a lot of time standing in the middle getting out of my daughter's way). 

Today she cantered wide all the way around, trotting circles at both ends as her coach asked. Harley did speed up at times, but he quickly figured out that he would have to slow down soon, and started to pay attention a little more. We're going to do a few more rides like this, to reinforce the idea in his mind that he may have to transition at any time. My only concern is that he might figure out the pattern soon, and rush the long sides, but if that happens, we'll start to change it up again. He is still anticipating the canter, but we will continue to work at it. 

As you say beau, ride, ride, ride. You do not become a better rider if you don't ride, it's that simple.


----------



## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

My experience comes mostly from having a very forward horse when I was around 12, so take it for what it's worth.

You're concerned that Harley might figure out the pattern. _Let him._ Teach him a new cue to differentiate between a fast canter and a pleasure canter. Give him opportunities to just canter freely as long as your daughter is in control (which you said wasn't a problem). He can learn the difference, and that might help him slow down when you need him to. The cue could be anything -- even something simple like "okay, go!" for the fast canter.

My experience was with a mare who didn't want to calm down after a canter. I started asking "are you ready?" every time before I asked for a canter from a walk or halt. That allowed her to relax when I slowed back to a walk because she knew we wouldn't canter again without warning. I wonder if something similar could help Harley relax if he knew you weren't going to canter fast without a specific cue.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Avna
'Am I the only one who watches the Arabian hunter under saddle videos and thinks that 1. horses are all behind the vertical 
No, but if you watch Arabian pleasure classes , be it western or hUS, they seem to be 'excused for getting behind the vertical, while stock horses would be gated


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

mkmurphy81 said:


> My experience comes mostly from having a very forward horse when I was around 12, so take it for what it's worth.
> 
> You're concerned that Harley might figure out the pattern. _Let him._ Teach him a new cue to differentiate between a fast canter and a pleasure canter. Give him opportunities to just canter freely as long as your daughter is in control (which you said wasn't a problem). He can learn the difference, and that might help him slow down when you need him to. The cue could be anything -- even something simple like "okay, go!" for the fast canter.
> 
> My experience was with a mare who didn't want to calm down after a canter. I started asking "are you ready?" every time before I asked for a canter from a walk or halt. That allowed her to relax when I slowed back to a walk because she knew we wouldn't canter again without warning. I wonder if something similar could help Harley relax if he knew you weren't going to canter fast without a specific cue.


Interesting idea! Sometimes, my daughter asks me if she can just let him go around fast once. I tell her ok, but if at any point it's too much, I'm going to tell you to slow him down and you have to listen. So that would be an example of a time when he'd be allowed to do a fast canter. 

He did very well today. He is figuring out the canter-trot circle-canter pattern, but it is keeping him thinking. He doesn't mind repetitive work, but I don't want him anticipating. Soon we'll start leaving out a trot circle at one end, and maybe putting one in the middle to change things up. 

Thanks for the comment! We may just try this as a way to teach Harley that it's ok to be fast sometimes, but not other times.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Also, tomorrow we are hauling to the coach's where she will try to repeat her success in a larger, show-sized ring. Fingers crossed that the coach will notice her progress! 

Another thing that I noticed today is that the transitions were far more fluid, and partly as a result of this I think, Harley got the right lead every time. We also tried him in a full cheek snaffle today, which seemed to make the half-halts far more effective. I don't think it's a particularly harsh bit (it's a three piece snaffle, but with the bars on either side), but he seemed to be listening better. The half-halts were really nice at getting him to rock back on his hindquarters too, rather than being on the forehand all the time. I'm mentioning the bit because it's just one more tool that is hopefully helping their communication. I do not believe in using harsher bits to control a horse, but if the cues can be made more subtly and effectively, especially when you have a child riding a hot horse, I think it's ok to experiment with what works best. 

On a side-note, those of you who followed my Kodak saga may be happy to know that today, I rode her in a Dr. Cook bitless bridle and she was amazing! We are going to experiment some more, and work with a coach who rides bitless herself to make sure things go smoothly, but she loved it and her steering was impeccable. Again, I felt that for the sensitive, head-shy Kodak who had had harsh hands in the past, bitless might actually be more effective. And you know what? she had the slowest, most relaxed trot I've ever felt on her. We did figure 8's and circles easily. 

In the end, each horse responds differently to different types of aids. I would not be comfortable letting my daughter ride Harley bitless at this point (they are not allowed in competitions here anyway), but for Kodak, this might be the best option.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I have been riding my lease horse in a halter. Now, he never had any problems with 'brakes', but he often would gape his mouth and cross his jaw at even minor contact ( no dental issues that dental vet could see) . It was his attitude from years of being fiddled with in dressage training, being 'fiddled' back into a frame. 
In any case, riding in the halter he is sooooo much happier. he trots out more evenly and just walks with a long, relaxed neck. and, I have plenty of brakes if needed.

On a different horse, one that my friend let me ride, and one I'd ridden before who is very 'chargy', I put him in a simple snaffle instead of what he was using before , (which was a snaffle with some gag affect,) and he rode sooooo much better. In many cases, the bit with the clearest communication, meaning that does the least in terms of actions, will end up being your most effective communication tool for a horse who has a bad relationship with the bit.


----------



## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

Acadianartist said:


> Interesting idea! Sometimes, my daughter asks me if she can just let him go around fast once. I tell her ok, but if at any point it's too much, I'm going to tell you to slow him down and you have to listen. So that would be an example of a time when he'd be allowed to do a fast canter.
> 
> He did very well today. He is figuring out the canter-trot circle-canter pattern, but it is keeping him thinking. He doesn't mind repetitive work, but I don't want him anticipating. Soon we'll start leaving out a trot circle at one end, and maybe putting one in the middle to change things up.
> 
> Thanks for the comment! We may just try this as a way to teach Harley that it's ok to be fast sometimes, but not other times.


Once Harley and your daughter get a bit better with the canter, I have found a fun exercise to do with my rushy half-arab, that gets strung out in canter to trot transitions. What I do in our large round pen, is put a single canter pole at 3 o'clock and 9 o'clock. At 6 o'clock, I have a line of 3 trot poles. In this exercise, I ask for the canter at after the trot poles, go around and over the two canter poles, and then do a downward position before the trot poles. This has been helping TREMENDOUSLY as my horse usually throws his head up, rushes quickly in the trot and anticipates more cantering... can't do that over trot poles!


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Been following this thread for a bit, and finally decided time was right to put in my two cents...

Harley is a super cute horse! Your DD has an excellent position and they really look to be a good match. 

Would love to see some videos of their progress. 

The daily riding and transition exercises will teach both of them how to be partners. The kid will be unbeatable with all the time and effort she is putting in :grin:

Wish I had had a supportive momma like you when I was 12!


----------



## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

I would like to make it abundantly clear that I am not looking for any sort of critique, this was three years ago, and in the first video I am in a saddle that is way too small, with stirrups that were much too short. 

Here is the transformation of Cain, a 5 year old Arabian gelding I took on as a favor to a friend. In the first clip, this was my first time EVER riding this horse. I actually rode my horse in the previous class, so I was using borrowed tack and had no warm up on him whatsoever. He was shy of the loud speakers, bleachers, pretty much everything, as this was his first time off of their farm. He avoided any contact with the bit, and was incredibly strung out, no matter what gait we were in. He didn't have much steering, or downward transitions. After riding him in two classes, I offered to have the owners drop him off at my home and I would work with him, for a month, free (what a mistake, I know!).

Second clip is his first time ever in a surcingle and side reins. If a horse has a problem relaxing and giving to a bit, I most commonly will put them in loose side reins and let them figure it out themselves, rather than fight with them. Doing this gave me a good starting point with him under saddle. The third clip shows what a few lessons properly using side reins will do. He started to reach for the bit, and give to any pressure. His hind end is a bit more engaged and overall, his movement seems A LOT better than where it was. 

Fourth and final clip is my final ride and second show with him. I probably had rode him 5 days a week for a month, and I focused on relaxing him in the walk and trot. I took more of a 'dressage' route while training him, teaching him that when I bumped with my legs, that he should lower his head and move forward. I also did some desensitizing and A LOT of natural horsemanship based groundwork to establish a leadership and get his trust, which I ultimately think was the game changer. In this clip, he is much more giving to my hands, and is willing to listen to me rather than all that is going on around him. I wish I had a few more weeks with him to really solidify his trot and work a lot more on his canter, but I can only do so much training for free.

SO, don't give up on Harley! Arabians are INCREDIBLY smart animals, and I believe they can be trained to do absolutely anything. And just for fun, here is a compilation of my horse from three years ago... All video taken within two months of each other! Arabians are versatility machines, and you can literally do ANYTHING and EVERYTHING with them. No Arabian is cookie-cuttered into one type of riding. Best of luck with Harley, hope this videos at least help inspire a bit of hope!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@ClearDonkey - that sounds like a great exercise! We'll give it a try! I love pole work because it gives Harley something to think about.
@AnitaAnne - thank you for your kind words. Watching your child struggle is very hard. But I know, intellectually, that it's good for kids to have adversity in their lives. I don't want things to come too easily to my daughter, but it was heartbreaking to watch her fail in a very public way. 

That said, I think it was a blessing. It made her realize she needs to really commit to Harley. I've never seen her work so hard to reach a goal, especially since she knows it will not happen overnight.

The good news is that she had an awesome lesson at her coach's today! They did really well, and there was only really one canter that was a little too fast. Her coach gave her a few more tools to deal with him when he wants to accelerate. They did a lot of transitions, a lot of circles. There were times when he was cantering so nice and slow! And the coach would tell her "Yes! That's it, right there! Just keep that pace!" She came home so happy with her progress. 

Unfortunately, I was too caught up in the moment to take any video, but I have a photo of them trotting. Wish I'd taken more. I'll try to get video soon.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Love those videos @ClearDonkey! I do love Arabs, even though they can be a challenge.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Ideally, her body language should dictate to Harley if he should be doing a fast canter or a slow one. I'm a big fan of verbal cues myself, but it's hard for a horse to differentiate SPEED in the canter from a verbal cue. 

She should be "sitting" for a nice slow canter. She should be more "forward" for a faster canter. Watch a reining video to see what I mean. On the slow circles, they are sitting. On the fast circles, they lean forward and put the reins forward to cue the horse to lope faster. Similar concept although you dn't have to exaggerate it that much.

Just ride and practice lots of speed changes!

Red and I just easily took 1st place at our show on Saturday in the Ranch Horse Pleasure class. Apparently, we were the only ones to pay precise attention to the pattern, location, and speed details. (and he did do really nicely for me) I knew we'd won it before it was even over because I didn't see anyone else be as accurate as we were. This was the pattern:











So there's a pattern your daughter and Harley can practice a home for fun! And focus on those speed changes from slow to fast to slow at the canter.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks @Beau! Yes, she tends to lean forward, but is learning to lean back to slow him down and it is working better. Still a long way to go of course. I don't expect this to get fixed overnight. But there is progress, and as long as she is progressing, we are all happy.

Thanks for the pattern and congrats on the win!!! That's so awesome!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Question @Beau - when you get to the sidepass, do you halt? Then sidepass?


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

nOt beau, but in any pattern that has a side pass, whether you walk, jog or lope up to it, you stop, then side pass
Of course, loping up to it, stopping at the correct spot, adds difficulty, over either walking or just jogging to it, as the more you can 'nail your stop, so you can immediately sidepass, being in position, adds degree of difficulty
Often, at the lope, you will see people break from the lope, before that sidepass, either walking or jogging the last few steps, when they are not called for
Glad to here lesson are going so positive! What a supportive mom you are!
Far as side reins, I don't like reins tied low, as that is not where your hands are going to be, and if you use side reins to bit a horse up, very important to then drive them up from behind. Just my two cents worth. When you lunge, you don't have legs to drive that horse up from behind, thus the importance of getting that implusion by other means, versus just a head set


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks Smilie! I assumed you'd have to halt before the side-pass, otherwise you'd end up with a diagonal movement rather than straight sideways, just thought I'd clarify that. Thanks for your description! Yes, it will be hard to halt from a canter (or a western lope). But maybe it will help remind Harley to stay ready to stop at all times. This is essentially the point of all these exercises. Harley gets going fast on a straightaway, when he thinks he can really take off. By interrupting that thought process often, it keeps him engaged. And hopefully keeps the impulsion on the hind end too.


----------



## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I've also found serpentines to be a useful slowing down tool. At the canter this will also work on either lead changes or counter cantering, depending on how advanced the pair is. : )

-- Kai


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks Smilie! I assumed you'd have to halt before the side-pass, otherwise you'd end up with a diagonal movement rather than straight sideways, just thought I'd clarify that. Thanks for your description! Yes, it will be hard to halt from a canter (or a western lope). But maybe it will help remind Harley to stay ready to stop at all times. This is essentially the point of all these exercises. Harley gets going fast on a straightaway, when he thinks he can really take off. By interrupting that thought process often, it keeps him engaged. And hopefully keeps the impulsion on the hind end too.


Yes, pattern work will help a lot. You can buy booklets of basic English or western equitation patterns. Riding those patterns, changing gaits, stopping,ect at exact markers is a great way to have a horse learn to rate, plus he has to move collected, to nail those markers


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here is alink to some patterns

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Engl...VAhVB92MKHdoBCfEQsAQIJw&biw=800&bih=385&dpr=2


----------



## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

You might enjoy working through this book with your daughter:
101 Arena Exercises for Horse and Rider

(I think there are also jumping and dressage specific versions available if you search Amazon or similar.)


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Question @*Beau* - when you get to the sidepass, do you halt? Then sidepass?


I see the written directions are not there so it is:
1) Begin walking around corner of arena
2) Jog_ (for practicing English, you could say sitting trot)_
3) Extend the jog _ (for practicing English you could say rising trot)_
4) At the center of the arena, stop and sidepass to the right.
5) Complete 1 spin in each direction (either direction first)
6) Extended trot to the long side of the arena
7) Lope on the left lead
8) Extend the lope
9) Change leads in the center of the arena (simple or flying)
10) Lope on the right lead
11) Extend the lope
12) Stop and back


Now some patterns will say how far you are supposed to back up. This one did not specify. For an extra challenge, you could back a specific number of steps such as 4 or 6, so your daughter learns to count. 

And yes, as Smilie already said, the more accurate you are the more you score. So when you are approaching that sidepass, you do not melt down into a walk before you stop. You simply go from an extended trot to a stop. Period. And when you pick up the trot again, you don't walk for a few steps first .... you go straight from a stop into the trot. Those small details are what give you better accuracy points on a pattern.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks for all the ideas for patterns and exercises - this will help me add variety to our riding at home! 

We had another fantastic ride this morning. My daughter cantered around the arena several times on both sides under control, and worked on her down and up transitions. She is still having to remind Harley to slow down quite often, and her cues are a little more exaggerated than they should be, ideally, but he's responding to her! And they are getting the right lead every time, whereas a few weeks ago, he would mess up his lead when the transition to the canter was messy. She is elated. We will continue to work on transitions, and keeping Harley on his toes, but this is a vast improvement! 

The funny thing is that she's not asking me to jump anymore. The jumping she did recently on him was relatively easy, and I think, achieved my goal of showing her what they'd be capable of doing together if only she can control that canter. They have no trouble jumping together, so now, she's completely focused on mastering the canter so that eventually, they can pull it all together for the whole package. But I also told her to keep her options open in case she decides to go in a different direction.

They are doing a show at the coach's on July 23rd. The coach offered to keep Harley there a couple of days before to do some pre-show prep and a couple of lessons, so we will take advantage of that offer. I told my daughter to set goals for herself - keep Harley at a slow, controlled canter - and not worry about how she places. This is more for growth and experience than placing. They may get some ribbons in other flat classes, but may not do so well at English pleasure. That's ok. It's more about personal growth. After all, she is only 12! She has many years ahead of potential firsts.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

beau159 said:


> I see the written directions are not there so it is:
> 1) Begin walking around corner of arena
> 2) Jog_ (for practicing English, you could say sitting trot)_
> 3) Extend the jog _ (for practicing English you could say rising trot)_
> ...


Stupid question for Smilie or anyone else who cares to answer. What is a simple lead change, as opposed to a flying lead change? Is it where the rider transitions briefly to a trot to pick up the canter on the other lead?


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Stupid question for Smilie or anyone else who cares to answer. What is a simple lead change, as opposed to a flying lead change? Is it where the rider transitions briefly to a trot to pick up the canter on the other lead?


Yes. Ideally, no more than 3 trot steps and pick up the new lead.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Yes. Ideally, no more than 3 trot steps and pick up the new lead.


Gotcha. Thanks @DreamCatcher. We discovered - somewhat accidentally - that Harley is capable of flying lead changes, but I don't think my daughter is quite there yet, so we'd opt for the brief transition to a trot, then pick up a new lead. However, right now, we're probably going to stick with getting the right lead in one direction at a time, since that's what they will expect at the levels she'll be showing. But eventually, she'll need to learn to switch leads so this is all useful information for a mom who is on a steep learning curve herself!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

As Dream said, it is breaking to a trot, whether it be for one stride or three, it is a break of gait, thus a simple change
However a good simple change is better, if pattern allows for either, then an attempted flying change, where the horse drags a hind lead, or gets chargy


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as teaching a flying lead change, there are two methods, with some English trainers esp, breaking to that simple change at first.
There is also the western method, used by reiners, ect, where the horse never learns to break for that change, as some horses will then always try to break, even if it is only for one stride
I know that putting in that simple change works for many, so not saying there is only one way, but personally, I found teaching a flying change right from the start works better for me, and that is what I did when training horses that I showed in western riding ( a series of flying changes are done, at exact markers) and reining
By the time I changed to western pl all around horses, I did not worry about teaching flying changes from the word go, as eq patterns usually called for good simple changes.
Thus, I had a heck of a time, then preventing Smilie from just breaking for a beat, hardly noticeable to many, when teaching her flying changes


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes Acadian, I would have your daughter become very proficient at getting Harley's leads first (and become more comfortable with his canter) before you attempt a flying lead change. When done correctly ... they are honestly not very easy!

I too do not like breaking my horse to a trot to teach them a flying lead change, because there are horses out there that will "sneak" in a trot step on their flying lead change .... because that's what you've taught them! I like to teach it true at a lope and do not let them break to a trot. But of course, there's always more than one way to get from point A to point B.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree that a horse has to be very dead leaded, before thinking about flying changes, picking up leads by cues, and not out of direction
I always taught flying changes on the straight, but those details are not necessary at this point
When the time comes, and you would like some help, I can tell you what worked for me
As Al Dunning once said, at a clinic, in a very humble way, inspite of his track record, when talking about teaching the stop, ' this is just the way I have done it, and it is not the only way, but works well for me'.


----------

