# Need info for my novel



## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Hello.

I'm here to do some research.

I'm working on a science-fiction novel and came looking for some information to add authenticity to it. I have next to no real-life experiences with horses beyond a short ride a long time ago. I did enjoy that quite a bit, although the horse stepped on my foot when I was walking her around afterward. Probably my own fault for not knowing what I was doing. No damage, just some temporary soreness, which was pretty lucky considering I was wearing boat-moccasins at the time.

Anyway, in the story, a couple of characters take a ride in a two-wheeled buggy (they refer to it as a trap). My problem is the learning curve: I don't yet know enough to ask the proper questions.

I don't need to know everything, just enough of the *right* stuff to not embarrass myself and/or irritate a knowledgeable reader.

So, I'm going to do this in stages. I'm adding an attachment for comment, and when I get that part settled, I'll move on the the next one.

Feel free to comment however you see fit.

The setting is as follows: the year is 2131, on Earth; climate has warmed up some. Humans have been trading with various alien species. About ten years previous to this, a global pandemic wiped out about a fourth of humanity, and much of civilization is still without previous technology. The main character (Leeta) was born on a horse ranch about 20 miles west of Midland, Michigan; he is an alien species of a kind previously unknown. An anti-alien political party has taken control and is forcing all aliens off of Earth, so the rancher (Greg) must find him a way off of Earth, and time is short.

I look forward to your responses.

LC


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

"I don't need to know everything, just enough of the right stuff to not embarrass myself and/or irritate a knowledgeable reader."

Good answer! Hate watching a movie where things aren't true to life.

Couldn't figure out what you are after based on the file. I would ask specific questions so you have good information for that specific situation.


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## RegularJoe (Aug 26, 2014)

Lester Curtis said:


> The main character (Leeta) was born on a horse ranch about 20 miles west of Midland, Michigan; he is an alien species of a kind previously unknown. An anti-alien political party has taken control and is forcing all aliens off of Earth, so the rancher (Greg) must find him a way off of Earth, and time is short.


It's hard to know what kind of info you might be looking for based on this fairly short excerpt. 

The only thing that I noticed is that Greg would probably know which horse had new shoes and which had a harness to pull the trap. Also, if time is short they wouldn't want to be wandering around the paddock checking everyone's shoes. 

Not to put words in your mouth, but I'd put that exchange together something like this: 

"Which one?" asked Carlos. 

"Take Flibbertigibbet," said Greg, "I just put new shoes on him last week." 

Or maybe something like this: 

"Take Tweedledee," said Greg. "The farrier said Tweedledum should rest a week to let a bruise on his hoof heal up." 

Or: 

"Either of the Percherons will do," said Greg, "but Holmes is a little faster than Watson." 

One would presume that Carlos knows a little something about horses if he's planning to hitch one to a carriage, but maybe not: 

"Which ones are the Percherons?" asked Carlos. 

"If he's grey and you can't see over his back," said Leeta, "he's a Percheron." 

This is all just food for thought, of course. You can and should write your own dialogue, but the idea is to drop in a tidbit or two of vaguely authentic sounding lingo that's appropriate to your characters at that point in the story.

Whatever you write, I applaud your effort to add some authenticity to the story. I'm no horse expert, but I am a computer professional, and the facepalm is an all too common gesture when I read or watch things having to do with technology. "Sure boss, we can definitely hack into a highly secure network we know nothing about in ten seconds. No problem."


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## Avishay (Jun 14, 2014)

THANK YOU! 

I'm a big sci-fi/fantasy nerd and every time an author tries to make horses a significant part of the novel and then completely misses the mark, it absolutely KILLS my interest. I didn't get more than 100 pages into Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" before the absurd horse-related nonsense drove me away. I don't read much historical fiction for the same reason - more often than not, the author does EXTENSIVE research into the human aspects, but then bring in elements of rural life (or anything farm/animal related) and it's so inaccurate that I lose interest. 

So yes, good for you.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

RegularJoe said:


> It's hard to know what kind of info you might be looking for based on this fairly short excerpt.
> 
> The only thing that I noticed is that Greg would probably know which horse had new shoes and which had a harness to pull the trap. Also, if time is short they wouldn't want to be wandering around the paddock checking everyone's shoes.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I've changed it, and given the horse a name. It now reads,

"Uh--take Chloe; she's got the best shoes. Put the hood on the trap; it's looking like it might rain."

One detail you mentioned that I hadn't thought of was the harness. That just never occurred to me. Before I signed on here I was looking at stuff about the buggies, but hadn't checked too much on what the horses wore. Glad to know that, even if I don't use it. I did learn recently that a saddle has to fit the horse--not something a non-horse person would think of, but it makes sense, and the harness follows that logic.

That's just the kind of response I'd hoped for.

Now for the other part--I'll put that in a separate post.

Thanks again!


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Okay, here's the other part I wanted some eyes on. I'm going to do this one inline, since there isn't much to it. I've already made some changes; the new lines are in red. Wish I could do a strikethrough, but you'll figure it out.

**************

They'd scarcely been stopped long enough to **** in the weeds before a light rain began to fall; still, they walked back and forth for a few moments, Greg with his collar up and his hat-brim down, Leeta ignoring the weather. Greg went to the back of the trap and got the lunch basket and an old scrap of waterproof tarp, and climbed in. Leeta stroked the horse's face and neck before shaking the rain off of his fur and hopping up.

Greg offered the end of the tarp. "Here, tuck this in around you so you don't get wet again. We'll sit here and have this soup before we move again, just so we don't spill it. We can eat the sandwiches while we ride."


As the soup steamed their faces, the rain began to freeze, tiny ice crystals hissing on the roof of the trap and in the trees along the road. Greg asked, "Do you like this weather?"

"Yeah."

He nodded out at the woods and the sky. "You may not see any weather for a while. They don't have any aboard space-ships, you know."

"Oh. That's right." He held his hand out and let some of the sleet accumulate on it while he got the last mouthful from the mug. "I'm done. We should go, before Chloe gets too cold."

"You're right." Greg took the empty mug and put it with his into the basket, then took the sandwiches out. "Where's your satchel--?"

"Behind the seat--I'll get it." He twisted around and got the translator.

Greg swapped him a sandwich for it and gave him a brief tutorial on its use, then handed it back and flicked the reins. "Giddup." "Chloe, trot."

*********************

Questions:

* They're going about twenty miles, one way. I was thinking that should take about three hours. Is that close, or would it be closer to four? Not important for the story; I'm just curious.

* Should they be taking some feed for the horse?

* The only commands I've seen for driving are "walk" and "trot." Are there any other speeds? Again, just curious. Maybe I've watched too much "Gunsmoke," but all I ever hear drivers say in TV westerns is stuff like "Yah!" And they definitely get going too fast with those buggies sometimes.

* Would a driver flick the reins to get moving? Would he use a whip? I've seen some info here and there on the use of whips with horses, and it was like, "forget everything you thought you knew."

* Can you drive one-handed and eat? People in cars do that and worse all the time, but . . .

* Is a whip a necessity or an option? This would answer the above question.

Now a little about my imaginary conveyance . . . I see it as something put together out of found materials; maybe aluminum tubing for most of the frame. I like the idea of large-diameter wheels, but those may not be available in this scenario, so maybe bicycle or motorcycle wheels. There's a small luggage platform behind the seat. I haven't figured out what the hood would look like beyond its needing some kind of side curtains.

Please comment freely.

Thanks again,

LC


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Avishay said:


> THANK YOU!
> 
> I'm a big sci-fi/fantasy nerd and every time an author tries to make horses a significant part of the novel and then completely misses the mark, it absolutely KILLS my interest. I didn't get more than 100 pages into Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" before the absurd horse-related nonsense drove me away. I don't read much historical fiction for the same reason - more often than not, the author does EXTENSIVE research into the human aspects, but then bring in elements of rural life (or anything farm/animal related) and it's so inaccurate that I lose interest.
> 
> So yes, good for you.


You share one of my big turn-offs; not about horses in particular, but any writer who's too lazy to get his facts right. I've done dozens of hours of research into all kinds of esoteric topics for this book. Sometimes all that work shows up as nothing more than a few words in the manuscript, but I can't stand to leave anything to guesswork. I KNOW that some reader will catch any mistake I make. :lol:


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

A horse will travel at about 4 MPH at a walk and 8 at the trot. They "could" cover the distance in the time allotted but they would both have to be super fit and we're talking a working trot not a sit down easy going trot. You can canter under harness but not common or correct for the most part. More apt for a stagecoach situation where you are traveling great distances not in a cart (two wheel) because it makes for a punishing ride for the driver.

More correct commands are walk on and trot. Get up not giddup. Step or step up would be asking the horse to take one or two steps forward or sideways (like for stepping over a center pole) Back would be backup.

A good driver can drive with one hand. Proper driving you never get in the cart or wagon without a whip. It is how you give commands to your horse other than your voice and reins (correct term for light horses and ponies while lines are used with drafts). You would NEVER flick the reins to get the horse to move on. You have a whip holder in the cart where you can place it when you don't need it or you can slip it under your leg if you don't have one. It is tiring to hold your whip up in a driving position and your reins for extended periods so get what you don't need out of the way.

As far as comfort of the ride, a cart or wagon built with wider wheels is easier for the horse to pull and a softer ride for the driver. They are better for uneven terrain. 

Horses have hair not fur. Do not need feed or water for the horses for a day outing.

I would suggest finding a horse show in your area that has some driving classes to get a better picture.


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## Cielo Notturno (Sep 12, 2013)

Lester Curtis said:


> Uh--take Chloe; she's got the best shoes.


I'm not sure about this. It's very unlikely that on the same farm any horse will have "better" shoes than any other. 
Shoes might be there or not there, they can be new or old and about to fall off (old means 4 to 6 weeks old, after that you can safely assume that at least one will come off during an hard ride, if it didn't came off already in the pasture), any other "quality" of the shoe is irrelevant unless you are writing a book about farriers and horse-shoeing techniques. Even venturing in the "well/ill fitting area" means you are going to discuss farrier's work. Not worth it.


It is very unlikely that a normal horse who lives outside will get cold in the rain. Maybe in a snow storm. It makes more sense to worry if the horse was running and sweating and he suddenly has to stand still in the cold wind (like you'd worry with a human). I'd put a blanket on the horse the moment they stop or leave the issue alone if they just stop for the time it takes to pee. 


_Leeta stroked the horse's face and neck before shaking the rain off of his fur and hopping up._

It will be raining from now on, right? I don't see much point in "shaking the rain off the horse's hair", other than getting one's hand wet. If it is an affectionate gesture, cool, but it's not going to "shake off" anything. 

I don't know much about driving so I'll leave that to the more competent people here


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## Kotori (Jun 18, 2012)

I think Leeta is the one with fur, right? I second not mentioning the shoes, unless the horse had the cleat like borium studs to prevent slips.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Actually, even horses who live outside can get cold in winter rain - if there is enough wind chill. The reason people don't think it happens is because they generally don't observe their horses up close in such weather. Next day everything looks fine.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Left Hand Percherons gave a good run down on driving. Pronunciation of commands can be regional. Where I grew up, "get-up" was often pronounced "gy'up". In Appalachia, it's sometimes "git up". Farther West, I've heard "gy'ap". Some folks would flick the reins, but not the good drivers. Just sends too many conflicting signals to the horse. 

I agree with Cielo Notturno on the shoes. If you go that route, may I suggest; "Hitch up Chloe. She was just shod."

If you ditch the reference to shoes, perhaps; "Take Chloe. She's the steadiest." Or strongest, or something similar.

To construct your imaginary trap, you can Google "horse cart Asia" for some images of home made rigs. 

Hope that helps.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Yeah, "She's got the best shoes" sounds more like a random way to select which girl a guy at a dance is going to talk to! ;-)


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

SueC said:


> Yeah, "She's got the best shoes" sounds more like a random way to select which girl a guy at a dance is going to talk to! ;-)


Mm, I don't think that's the first thing guys look at ...


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Wow, so many responses! I'm starting a file on this.

So, item by item ...

Left Hand Percherons wrote:


> They "could" cover the distance in the time allotted but they would both have to be super fit and we're talking a working trot not a sit down easy going trot.


I take it "both" means the horse and the driver?
and,


> not in a cart (two wheel) because it makes for a punishing ride for the driver.


 Does it help if the cart has suspension? They are in a little bit of a hurry, but I don't want them to arrive beaten up and exhausted.

Noted, buggy-whip socket needed.


> As far as comfort of the ride, a cart or wagon built with wider wheels is easier for the horse to pull and a softer ride for the driver. They are better for uneven terrain.


By "wide," do you mean larger diameter? That makes sense. If you mean a wider rim (like a fat tire), that would increase rolling resistance.

Their route will be on paved road, though poorly maintained, so there could be cracks or potholes. Not bad enough to slow them down much.

Yes, the fur is on Leeta, not the horse. I know there are hairy horses--some downright shaggy-- but I wouldn't call that fur.

Cordillera Cowboy wrote:


> If you ditch the reference to shoes, perhaps; "Take Chloe. She's the steadiest."


Thanks; I'll use that. Thanks also for the suggestion about Asian carts; I've looked at a few pictures already.

Thanks again to all of you; I'm enjoying the dialog, and for me, it's always fun learning new things.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Lester Curtis said:


> Mm, I don't think that's the first thing guys look at ...


Yeah, I know! :rofl: That's why I used the word "random" - perhaps one could craft such a scenario in a novel for humorous effect! ...give your readers the unexpected... but hang on, you're already doing space aliens! ;-) To combine the two, you'd be going into Douglas Adams / Terry Pratchett territory...


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Lester Curtis said:


> Wow, so many responses! I'm starting a file on this.
> 
> So, item by item ...
> 
> ...


Absolutely both. Riding and driving are physical activities. In driving you need decent upper body strength (constant contact on the reins, holding your arms up (like holding 10# out and up and can't rest on anything)). You are bracing with your legs to keep your butt still. You are also working your core and balancing. Most carts have springs but they are still like riding in the back of a 1960's pickup.

It is counter intuitive but wider tires have less resistance because they "float" more on the surface. A skinny bicycle tire will sink into the soft footing creating more drag. Working carts and wagons are typically set up with car or motorcycle tires. That's all the proof I need that they are easier on the horses.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

RegularJoe said:


> This is all just food for thought, of course. You can and should write your own dialogue, but t_he idea is to drop in a tidbit or two of vaguely authentic sounding lingo_ that's appropriate to your characters at that point in the story.


AGREED!!
DH is also an author. We are retired CW Reenactors and were involved with a unit that strove for authenticity. We were watching a new series, 
How to Get Away with Murder (TV Series 2014â€“ ) - IMDb
and laughing at all of the poorly written courtroom drama. It is foolish to write without researching, so you get a pat on the back.
I would suggest that you read up on WWII History and find out about people who left Europe during that last days that anybody could get out.
Here is a very good book to study (NON-fiction):
http://www.amazon.com/We-Die-Alone-Escape-Endurance/dp/1599210630
Good luck. And, DON'T mimic any of the current season of "Dr. Who." bc it sucks.


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## RegularJoe (Aug 26, 2014)

Corporal said:


> I would suggest that you read up on WWII History and find out about people who left Europe during that last days that anybody could get out.


This is a really excellent idea. I suspect we all have a lot of misconceptions about what people really do if they need to flee. Certainly one of the things I rarely see addressed is the emotional impact of abandoning a home.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

RegularJoe said:


> This is a really excellent idea. I suspect we all have a lot of misconceptions about what people really do if they need to flee. Certainly one of the things I rarely see addressed is the emotional impact of abandoning a home.


The emotional impact is what I'll be dealing with, and it's going to follow him through life, for better and worse. For example, one of the parting gifts he receives is a St. Christopher medal, which will literally and figuratively be a chain around his neck.

Touching on that, next time you see some catastrophic event on the news, pay attention to the victims' reaction--one of the first things you'll hear is how they mourn the loss of their family photos, of all things.

One of my fascinations is with psychology, and for entertainment and mental stimulation I've been taking free online courses--MOOCs-- (find some here: https://www.class-central.com/).

One I'm in the beginning weeks of now will be very helpful with that; it's called "Resilience in Children Exposed to Trauma, Disaster, and War." I signed up for it as soon as I saw it. Very helpful already; one of the big problems to deal with is separation.

I don't have a job, so I've got a lot of time for stuff like this. :lol:


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

All right, now I've got a tricky problem to figure out and I really don't know where exactly to start with it or how it can end up, so I need more help with this one.

I've figured out that what I have to do is to force Leeta to make the next leg of his journey by himself. So, Greg and the horse have to be taken out of commission. I'm thinking that for dramatic impact, Greg has to be injured so that he couldn't walk any appreciable distance, and the horse may have to be injured and/or killed. Leeta might also sustain some minor injury himself. This will happen a few miles or so short of the Griffin complex, which is the goal.

The scenario I've come up with is that they come to a place where the road is washed out, probably at a small bridge. This is a secondary blacktop road, but hardly used at all for some years, and not maintained. So, they get to this place and Greg decides they should find a way to get the horse and the trap across, likely some little distance away from the bridge. Remember, this is urgent, and he takes a chance on a risky crossing, but it fails.

One thing that occurred to me is that if the horse were to fall over sideways for some reason, the trap would go over also, due to the way they're coupled together. Am I correct in this? If so, that would make for a more dramatic accident, and might cause Greg an injury.

I thought also that for a risky crossing, Greg and Leeta would both get out of the trap and lead the horse on foot. This makes sense both to lighten the horse's load over dangerous footing and also to save them from being tossed out.

I also thought about having them get attacked by some kind of highwaymen, but in lousy weather on a road with no traffic, that's too much of a stretch. Next was having them get attacked by a lone hunter just taking the chance at opportunity, but that seemed unlikely as well.

Greg is armed with a small pistol, which he would use to shoot the horse; Leeta could hear the gunshot as he's running on.

Can I make this work? Help me out, please.

Thanks again.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

I think it would be more likely that the trap would go over, pulling the horse with it. IMO, having the accident in the water has been done to death. Perhaps on the embankment as they are leaving the water. I've often encountered obstacles across trails while hiking, riding, and in motorized vehicles. There is usually an obvious path around it made by previous travelers. The alternate path can be pretty hairy in rough terrain. Hope that helps some.


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## RegularJoe (Aug 26, 2014)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> IMO, having the accident in the water has been done to death.


I tend to agree, although it's been done to death in part because water crossings are dangerous. 

Some alternatives: 


Bridge collapses during crossing, throwing horse and driver into river.
Horse injured in attack by predator.
Horse spooked by predator, bolts, driver loses control of trap.
Horse and/or trap hit by falling tree or debris during storm.
Horse and trap fall into roadside ravine while attempting to go around fallen rocks or trees blocking roadway.
Bridge lost over narrow but deep canyon or gulch - no way to get horse and trap across. Greg forced to return with horse and trap leaving Leeta to continue alone, crossing using fallen tree or jury rigged rope bridge.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> I think it would be more likely that the trap would go over, pulling the horse with it. IMO, having the accident in the water has been done to death. Perhaps on the embankment as they are leaving the water. I've often encountered obstacles across trails while hiking, riding, and in motorized vehicles. There is usually an obvious path around it made by previous travelers. The alternate path can be pretty hairy in rough terrain. Hope that helps some.


I hadn't really thought of having the accident happen in the water; a soft or collapsing embankment was what I had in mind. Having the trap fall over hadn't occurred to me, but that sounds good. Thanks.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

RegularJoe said:


> I tend to agree, although it's been done to death in part because water crossings are dangerous.
> 
> Some alternatives:
> 
> ...


I'd thought of a predator, but for some reason that seemed a little too much like a _deus ex machina_ ploy, as did the attack by highwaymen. BTW, it's been said that you can use improbable events to get your characters _into_ trouble, but using same to get them _out_ of trouble is too much like cheating. :twisted:

I did think of the last one you mentioned, and it's perfectly believable, but I wanted something more dramatic. Greg has a written document he wanted to give to the officials in person, so he'll have to give that to Leeta, but I wanted the scene to end with him injured and telling Leeta to send help but to go on alone and not risk missing a ride off Earth. This would give Leeta an extra level of anxiety.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Just general info here: the landscape is pretty flat, and I don't think a deep ravine is very likely, nor a big stream in that area. My initial mention of a 'bridge' was misleading and I wasn't paying proper attention to my wording. The actual situation would be more like a drainage culvert (maybe up to four feet diameter) under the road, washed out by temporary flooding, culvert and pavement partially collapsed. When they get there, the water will only be a few inches deep, but the banks will be soft and unstable. I figure that if they tried to go around, the horse could slip and/or sink a foot into unstable mud and get injured or a wheel could sink and/or get caught, all more likely on the way up the other side.

I suppose I should get a topo map view of the area in question just to make sure.

Hope this helps.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Okay, I looked at the map and got a surprise; I'd been thinking of a different location from a previous version of the story. No problem; I can relocate Greg's farm to the north of Midland (Michigan), and there's a small creek that will do just fine. Still, the terrain is quite flat in that whole area; lots of farm country.


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## HalfAHaffie (Jul 22, 2012)

Playing off the lone hunter idea, times are tough, right? What if a hunter DID come along and saw the horse as an easy meal for his family? Then the characters could get injured in all sorts of ways trying to protect the horse. Extra level of anxiety for which ever one (sorry, can't remember which is which) is losing yet another personal connection to their former life. Feeling like a failure for not protecting his horse from such a demise, on top of the practical loss of the horse as a tool.


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## horseNpony (Sep 27, 2013)

Ill throw in some of my ideas-
-Is it raining? Because then you could have the horse perhaps spook, bolt and slip, having a hard impact as he falls. Trap topples over as well. Im not really sure how the others can come into play, but say they ran with the horse, or the horse only went a short distance then fell, and they were within range of the trap to be knocked by it.
-on the hunter idea, you could have that the hunter didnt realise this was someones horse, as he didnt see the people or trap. So he let of a few shots, got the horse, maybe got one of the people in the leg? So Greg could get shot in the leg, wouldnt kill him, but he most certainly could keep going. Leeta could get injured when the horse falls.
-Doe the horse necessarily have to die? You could have him spook and bolt back up the track. The trap could smash into Greg and Leeta as it passes, causing some injuries.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

> -Doe the horse necessarily have to die?


It's pretty nearly certain at this point, but don't feel bad. I can post a disclaimer that no real animals were injured or killed in the making of this manuscript. :lol:


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Okay, I've got a quick detail question; should be easy.

Given that there's a horse hitched up to a buggy or cart, but the driver wants to get out of the cart and lead the horse by walking ahead of it. Does he hold or pull on the reins, or is there some part of the tack that's specific to this purpose?


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## horseNpony (Sep 27, 2013)

Lester Curtis said:


> It's pretty nearly certain at this point, but don't feel bad. I can post a disclaimer that no real animals were injured or killed in the making of this manuscript. :lol:


Its not that I feel bad (in my stories I kill of pretty much half my characters, horses included, well, the current one at least has a lot of deaths) just I thought that a horse bolting could both injure the people and get the horse out of the picture, it was just an idea I threw out there. 

As for your questions, you would hold the reins just under the bit and pull.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

horseNpony said:


> Its not that I feel bad (in my stories I kill of pretty much half my characters, horses included, well, the current one at least has a lot of deaths) just I thought that a horse bolting could both injure the people and get the horse out of the picture, it was just an idea I threw out there.


I'm considering it ... road conditions are slippery, with the freezing rain and all. I'd just need something believable for the horse to panic over. If a wild animal ran out in front of them, would that do it?



> for your questions, you would hold the reins just under the bit and pull.


Thanks!


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

I've seen animals in harness go to their knees trying to maintain traction in muddy, steep terrain. Fortunately, I've not seen any injured. Given your updated description of the terrain, I'll make another suggestion. On the downhill slope, at least one of your passengers could stay on the trap to operate brakes. You have to keep the vehicle from running up on the horse. Many rigs I've seen made from automotive parts have a pedal mounted in or near the floor. 

Both can dismount to ascend the far bank. One in front to help control the horse. The other behind, to push the rig. The horse loses traction and begins to struggle. The rig slides back and sideways. The eroded bank gives way. If the rig topples, you can mangle man and beast to your hearts content. If the rig only gets cockeyed and tilted, the man behind can be caught underneath and injured however you see fit. For dramatic effect, the horses injury may not be as obvious at first. But if a hind leg gets over a shaft and caught in the mud or rocks, it could be broken at the pastern or hock. The injury may not be evident until the horse is untangled and unhitched.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Wow, Cowboy, that's excellent. Very helpful; many thanks!


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## RegularJoe (Aug 26, 2014)

Lester Curtis said:


> It's pretty nearly certain at this point, but don't feel bad. I can post a disclaimer that no real animals were injured or killed in the making of this manuscript. :lol:


There's a whole separate thread going right now about people who won't ready or watch things where animals get killed. 

http://www.horseforum.com/general-off-topic-discussion/i-wont-watch-movie-where-animals-491649/


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

RegularJoe said:


> There's a whole separate thread going right now about people who won't ready or watch things where animals get killed.
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/general-off-topic-discussion/i-wont-watch-movie-where-animals-491649/


Well, my book won't be for everyone; there's piracy, slavery and butchery in the background, adult language, sex, and assorted occasional violence. The main character's mate gets killed. He manages to get through it all, though, and refuses to give up hope.


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## RegularJoe (Aug 26, 2014)

Lester Curtis said:


> Well, my book won't be for everyone; there's piracy, slavery and butchery in the background, adult language, sex, and assorted occasional violence. The main character's mate gets killed. He manages to get through it all, though, and refuses to give up hope.


Nothing wrong with any of that. I thought you might find the discussion interesting.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Lester Curtis said:


> Hello.
> 
> I'm here to do some research.
> 
> ...


FYI carriage/buggy is a 4 wheel vehicle
a cart is a 2 wheel vehicle.
I don't believe it is correct for a trap to have a hood. Not positive but couldn't find one online.
Only could search back to back trap to get a real trap to come up otherwise when I searched trap other styles came up.
But if this is futuristic why not used more modern day vehicles and terms?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> I've seen animals in harness go to their knees trying to maintain traction in muddy, steep terrain. Fortunately, I've not seen any injured. Given your updated description of the terrain, I'll make another suggestion. On the downhill slope, at least one of your passengers could stay on the trap to operate brakes. You have to keep the vehicle from running up on the horse. Many rigs I've seen made from automotive parts have a pedal mounted in or near the floor.
> 
> Both can dismount to ascend the far bank. One in front to help control the horse. The other behind, to push the rig. The horse loses traction and begins to struggle. The rig slides back and sideways. The eroded bank gives way. If the rig topples, you can mangle man and beast to your hearts content. If the rig only gets cockeyed and tilted, the man behind can be caught underneath and injured however you see fit. For dramatic effect, the horses injury may not be as obvious at first. But if a hind leg gets over a shaft and caught in the mud or rocks, it could be broken at the pastern or hock. The injury may not be evident until the horse is untangled and unhitched.


I doubt if a 2 wheel cart would have brakes. Very unlikely.
If it is a back to back trap then it would seat more than 2 so not sure what details are important to the writer.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

RegularJoe said:


> Nothing wrong with any of that. I thought you might find the discussion interesting.


I did read it, and appreciate the heads-up, but it won't affect what I do. If/when I manage to finish this thing and get it published, I'll have no control over who sees it, and I know that not everyone likes everything, even within a given genre.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

churumbeque said:


> I doubt if a 2 wheel cart would have brakes. Very unlikely.
> If it is a back to back trap then it would seat more than 2 so not sure what details are important to the writer.


Good point, and I never saw anything that looked like brakes in any of the photos of two-wheeled carts I found on the 'net.

Well enough; that just makes the descent more exciting. :lol:


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

churumbeque said:


> I doubt if a 2 wheel cart would have brakes. Very unlikely.
> If it is a back to back trap then it would seat more than 2 so not sure what details are important to the writer.


You have my curiosity up now, Churumbeque. Since it's probably of little consequence to our author friend, I'll start another thread along these lines. I'm curious, because I intend to be driving my own rig in the near future.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

churumbeque said:


> FYI carriage/buggy is a 4 wheel vehicle
> a cart is a 2 wheel vehicle.
> I don't believe it is correct for a trap to have a hood. Not positive but couldn't find one online.
> Only could search back to back trap to get a real trap to come up otherwise when I searched trap other styles came up.
> But if this is futuristic why not used more modern day vehicles and terms?


I got a bit more curious about this and did a quick google search for "two-wheeled horse cart with roof." Seems there are a variety of names and descriptions for horse-drawn conveyances, they don't always agree, and some (like 'trap') aren't well-defined. Check these out:

Road vehicles pulled by horses - synonyms or related words for Road vehicles pulled by horses - Macmillan Dictionary and Thesaurus

The Ocular Helmsman

The Edinburgh encyclopaedia - Google Books

Regency Carriages | Regency Reflections

I thought the Hansom cab was a real beauty, but the Chaise is closest to what I had in mind.

The High Phaeton--well, my first question was, "Where do they store the ladder?" and my second was, "Why are those horses standing so far off to the side of the thing?" Okay, it's a bad illustration. :lol:


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## RegularJoe (Aug 26, 2014)

Lester Curtis said:


> I thought the Hansom cab was a real beauty, but the Chaise is closest to what I had in mind.


Same here. Chaise or Tilbury.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Lester Curtis said:


> I got a bit more curious about this and did a quick google search for "two-wheeled horse cart with roof." Seems there are a variety of names and descriptions for horse-drawn conveyances, they don't always agree, and some (like 'trap') aren't well-defined. Check these out:
> 
> Road vehicles pulled by horses - synonyms or related words for Road vehicles pulled by horses - Macmillan Dictionary and Thesaurus
> 
> ...


 I think they have the cart and carriage description backwards. I also have never heard of that dictionary.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

churumbeque said:


> I think they have the cart and carriage description backwards. I also have never heard of that dictionary.


Carriage - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

plural carts
Learner's definition of CART
[count]
1 
: a wagon with two wheels that is pulled by an animal (such as a horse or donkey)
2 
:


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Lester Curtis said:


> I got a bit more curious about this and did a quick google search for "two-wheeled horse cart with roof." Seems there are a variety of names and descriptions for horse-drawn conveyances, they don't always agree, and some (like 'trap') aren't well-defined. Check these out:
> 
> Road vehicles pulled by horses - synonyms or related words for Road vehicles pulled by horses - Macmillan Dictionary and Thesaurus
> 
> ...


I also had difficulty looking up info on traps unless I did pony trap or back to back. The chaise may be more suitable for what you are trying to do. Again though it would be very old and wondering why you are not using a modern vehicle since the scene is is the future. That said a vehicle over 100 years old wouldn't be suitable for long trips on a bumpy terrain so it could literally fall apart and then you have a reason that it doesn't survive the trip


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Churumbeque,

I used the term 'trap' just because I liked it, but given all the confusion possible (a fair number of readers may never have heard the word used that way), I'm just going to rename it 'cart.' I may even take the roof off and let their sandwiches get wet. :twisted:

Thanks again for your help.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Whatever you call it, the possibilities are endless.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> Whatever you call it, the possibilities are endless.


Agreed, but as that photo shows, just because you *can* do something doesn't necessarily mean you *should.* :lol:


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Okay, I'm getting ready to start writing the part where the horse gets injured. They've gotten past the stream-bed okay and are on their way up the other side, with Leeta leading the horse and Greg pushing the cart.

They almost make it, and then the horse's front foot sinks into a soft spot and she lurches a little to keep her balance, then loses traction with her hind leg(s) and the horse and cart suddenly slide backwards enough to knock Greg down, and one of the wheels hits him just enough to sprain his knee. The horse tries to move forward to free her front leg and it breaks.

Will she go down then, or keep trying to get up? Will she scream, or make some other noise? If she does get up, I'm guessing she won't want to move; at that point I think Greg would hobble over and examine her first, then unhitch the cart.

Am I doing okay so far?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

She won't scream, she may still try and move depending on how the break is or it may just stop and favor the leg. But in mud it would be hard to break. It could pull a tendon but a break would be unlikely.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

I agree with Churumbeque. Fortunately, I've only been witness to one broken leg. That horse never made a sound. The few others I've been told about after the fact. No one ever mentions the horse making sounds. My observation of severely injured horses is that they may have been frantic during the incident, but afterwards, they remain calm. 

Also agreed that stuck in the mud would more likely result in a strain or sprain. That's why I suggested the cart getting all cockeyed, and getting a leg caught between a shaft and something solid.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Okay ... instead of just mud, what about a subsurface tunnel, such as made by a burrowing animal, maybe a foot deep?

Now (thanks, churumbeque and Cowboy) I'm looking at the possibility of the horse just being temporarily disabled and not needing to be shot. The important end result is the same: Leeta has to go ahead alone.

It seems counterintuitive that the horse would be calm with an injury. I know that injured animals rarely make noise (it attracts predators), but I'd expect some outward signs of pain or fear, even if subtle; maybe slight nervous motions, reluctance to move or obey commands, or wide eyes?


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Lester Curtis said:


> Okay ... instead of just mud, what about a subsurface tunnel, such as made by a burrowing animal, maybe a foot deep?
> 
> Now (thanks, churumbeque and Cowboy) I'm looking at the possibility of the horse just being temporarily disabled and not needing to be shot. The important end result is the same: Leeta has to go ahead alone.
> 
> It seems counterintuitive that the horse would be calm with an injury. I know that injured animals rarely make noise (it attracts predators), but I'd expect some outward signs of pain or fear, even if subtle; maybe slight nervous motions, reluctance to move or obey commands, or wide eyes?


 You didnt give us all those options, you said whinny. LOL
How about if he just strains himself so he is hurt. 
I had a horse with a broken shoulder. I did not see it until many hours after it happened. Yes he was wide eyed and when I got him up he stood with out bearing weight and his head hung a bit lower. He was reluctant to move but once started he had a long hop up a hill and through the yard to get to the trailer. I wanted the vet to come and put him down but they wanted to do xrays. The clinic was only 1/4 mile away and he hopped in the trailer on 3 legs and after a 1/4 mile was very sweaty and in pain. He hopped off on 3 legs. Riding on 3 legs isnt easy and I felt terrible for not insisting the vet come to me and put him down. They kept thinking something else was wrong. Finally the other vet showed up and agreed it was his shoulder and we put him down.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

After seeing the short video posted elsewhere, I decided to see if youtube had any vids of horse cart accidents--found this one right near the top:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03Y....com/watch?v=03YcT74h5Mg)&channel=chucksiemon

I found it very instructive for my purposes; granting that the carts they use are barely more than racing sulkies and they don't seem to be using much harness gear, the cart's orientation (upright or on its side) has no effect on the horse.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Okay, it took a while to get it done, but here's what I've got for the accident scene. Minimal damage and injury, but it gives me the desired result.

Please let me know if I've got anything messed up.



> Leeta had been silent for a while after listening to the recording of his mother, but then began to immerse himself in the language instruction. His attention returned to the here-and-now when Greg brought the horse to a stop, saying, "Aw, hell--"
> 
> The sleet had turned to a light snow. A few dozen yards ahead, the road surface on the right was cracked and sagging, and a little beyond that, a yellow saw-horse stood across the center of the road.
> 
> ...


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

"She's holding up her left foreleg a little.". That's the only part I'd change. And it may not need changing at all. Sort of depends on Leetas' experience level with horses, and regional expressions. In the Southern tier of states, we'd say "she's favoring her left front.". Not sure how it would be said in the Midwest. If the character is not very familiar with horses, he might describe it just as you wrote it. Also your audience may not understand the jargon. Hope that helps some.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> "She's holding up her left foreleg a little.". That's the only part I'd change. And it may not need changing at all. Sort of depends on Leetas' experience level with horses, and regional expressions. In the Southern tier of states, we'd say "she's favoring her left front.". Not sure how it would be said in the Midwest. If the character is not very familiar with horses, he might describe it just as you wrote it. Also your audience may not understand the jargon. Hope that helps some.


Thanks, Cowboy. I had it stated that way because Leeta is only five years old and I thought it might be more characteristic for that age. He might have heard the proper term, but it's unlikely unless a horse got injured on the farm while he was there (and old enough to understand about it).

Glad to know I haven't messed up! 

LC


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## KatieQ (Apr 4, 2011)

Just found this thread, and have found it very interesting so far! As writing is a passion and hobby of mine I would like to jump in if I may. I have very little driving experience, but as others have said when people write things about horses which are obviously nonsensical it annoys me. As far as the lingo goes, it can be very regional, but I will agree that an injured horse will not normally scream or make noise. Out of fear they will often snort, and horses who are stuck or trapped will sometimes groan with the effort of trying to free themself. They will also often try to walk on the injured leg at first, and either go down or limp badly. Only after they have done that will they (sometimes) hold the leg up.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I'm going to put some comments inline - not all of them will be about the horses or carriages; I'm also going to add some critiquing of the writing.



Lester Curtis said:


> Okay, here's the other part I wanted some eyes on. I'm going to do this one inline, since there isn't much to it. I've already made some changes; the new lines are in red. Wish I could do a strikethrough, but you'll figure it out.
> 
> **************
> 
> ...


Along with the harness, most cart horses will wear blinders. A lot of people seem to think this is to focus the horse's attention forward and minimize distractions. Others are of the opinion that it is to hide the fact that this Big Scary Monster (the wagon) is following them around. I tend to go with the second opinion.

If your cart is made of found piece-parts, then I'd imagine your harness would be, too. Research the parts of a harness so that you know what you'd need for a collar or breast piece (something the horse uses to pull with). You'll need something around the body with loops at the sides for the forks. Oh... the horse doesn't pull using the forks - she pulls from the chest and shoulders. The forks control the direction of the wheels. Your cart should also have some kind of mechanical break to help in stopping and to keep the cart from "pushing" the horse on down-hills.


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## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I didn't read through all the comments before my last reply - so now I'll address the accident. You're traveling on a poorly maintained black top/asphalt road in the rain. Water will be getting under the road through the cracks and potholes, eroding the support. What looks like safe road might only be an inch of blacktop over a hole, which, if the horse stepped in it, could potentially break a leg or at least cause the horse to go lame. 

Just a thought.


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## Lester Curtis (Sep 30, 2014)

Change said:


> I didn't read through all the comments before my last reply - so now I'll address the accident. You're traveling on a poorly maintained black top/asphalt road in the rain. Water will be getting under the road through the cracks and potholes, eroding the support. What looks like safe road might only be an inch of blacktop over a hole, which, if the horse stepped in it, could potentially break a leg or at least cause the horse to go lame.
> 
> Just a thought.


The scene is at post #58 on page 6.

What you've described is the exact problem, but it wasn't bad enough to hamper them until that point.

I appreciate the critique, but to keep the thread on topic, I'll reply to it by PM.

Thanks!


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