# Boarding and Lessons



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Hmm The price you are paying for pasture board is shockingly high. The highest I have ever heard for pasture board was $250 including feed.

Charging for use of the facilities however is quite normal. 


But, you should have been told that up front. If you have to pay an extra fee to use the facility for lessons, then you should have exclusive use at those times. Other boarders may not like that situation at all. 


Honestly it just seems like this couple wants to nickel and dime everything. Really I don't like their attitude or the method they chose to tell you. 


IMO it is time to look for a different place.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> Hmm The price you are paying for pasture board is shockingly high. The highest I have ever heard for pasture board was $250 including feed.
> 
> Charging for use of the facilities however is quite normal.
> 
> ...


I completely agree, I wish they would have told me in person and a reason why. I do find the pasture board to be high especially for where I’m located. That’s why I figure it’s fine with the price of board and using the facility.

The boarders don’t care as they’re never really out there. The one that is, is my neighbor and loves the fact that more kids are getting involved. Other then her none of the other boarders really ride, just come to see their horses and graze them. 

Plus the fact of where I’m located it’s hard to find a barn that has an indoor arena and the one I’m at is a small one (smaller then the standard dressage arena I believe). 

I just feel like it’s another way for them to get money, but unfortunately I think I’m stuck with it until I can get my own place built in a few years.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Somehow it doesn't surprise me that the other boarders are never there. 

I think you should have a backup plan. They might keep wanting more and more $$ for things. 

I would forgo an indoor (they are rare here anyway) to save that extra money for your own place. There might even be barns you could rent a bring in boarders or horses for training. Just a thought.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I would have texted them back and say I specifically told you up front I give lessons and you agreed and said my students needed to sign a waiver, no mention of any fees. Now why the change of rules in the middle of game?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I would tread very carefully in how you phrase your comments to the barn owners...
YOU pay to board your horse their...
YOU pay to use the facilities...
No where is the word "THEM" as in clients of yours paying for a service mentioned...
So, is the barn insured?
Is is maintained?
Do you have bathroom facilities?
Leveled and maintained parking area?
Place to ride in a fenced ring?
Groomed ring that is either mowed or dragged?


Sorry....I disagree.
The barn owners _*are*_ entitled to be compensated for you to run your business off their property.
They have all the risk and you pocket the profits....doesn't work that way in actuality.
Unless you carry your own liability blanket policy that refers to the property owner in case of injury and lawsuit...
Don't care if you/your clients signed a waiver...they don't hold up when it seriously challenged.
It is rare you can sign away rights of a minor with regard to accidents.
_You *are* a free-lance instructor...that means you *should* be paying usage fees for the ring on every lesson._
Tell your clients the lesson money is now a $10 increase to cover the cost now paid to the B/O....
You're collecting it _not _pocketing it...
If they get mad...
Don't shoot the messenger you know.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

While I completely agree with HLG on this if they were informed up front when you signed you contracts they can't say they did not know. It should have been noted on the contract so that this could not happen. I would ask for a grace period before it starts and start looking for a new barn.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Nope, HLG, this isn't a fairness issue but a contract issue. As long as the current contract is in force, and OP uses facilities as stipulated by the contract (verbal or written), they have no right to assess a fee. I find it extortionary to do so, especially with the implied thread, "We wouldn't want anything to happen to your horses now, do we?" In a contract dispute about the terms of the contract, courts will always side against the party who drew up the contract, because they should have known what they considered fair. They will provide services and facilities for the price they asked for and that OP agreed to pay, or they'll be in breach. 

It's really bad PR for the barn, so unless they are in a quasi monopoly situation in their local market, they should tread carefully.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> Somehow it doesn't surprise me that the other boarders are never there.
> 
> I think you should have a backup plan. They might keep wanting more and more $$ for things.
> 
> I would forgo an indoor (they are rare here anyway) to save that extra money for your own place. There might even be barns you could rent a bring in boarders or horses for training. Just a thought.


I agree but at the same time but the other boarders are older that enjoy just the pleasure of it. I’m probably the youngest boarder there, and only person that really ride and competes.

I should have a back up plan and I’m not sure how to go about that I just wanted to make sure I didn’t seem crazy for thinking it’s unfair as I’ve never had this happen anywhere.

The indoor is something I need as we get really bad winters here and I myself would like to keep riding and to give the students an opportunity to keep riding. The next barns with indoors are over 30mins away, not a drive I’d like to do all the time in the winter nor would I like to lose even more students.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

waresbear said:


> I would have texted them back and say I specifically told you up front I give lessons and you agreed and said my students needed to sign a waiver, no mention of any fees. Now why the change of rules in the middle of game?


I didn’t want to make a fuss over text, I wish when they would have walked down and talked to me in person as I feel that should be a conversation that’s face to face. I do agree tho, especially as I was never given a reason why..I don’t think it was her idea but her husbands. She stated she dragged her feet over the idea over it, so I wish I had a reason why.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

horselovinguy said:


> I would tread very carefully in how you phrase your comments to the barn owners...
> YOU pay to board your horse their...
> YOU pay to use the facilities...
> No where is the word "THEM" as in clients of yours paying for a service mentioned...
> ...


Oh I agree it’s something you have to be very careful about. There’s a little out house for a bathroom and we park on the grass. The out door has small weeds everywhere but I was going to bring my atv out to harrow it and pick the weeds this weekend. We park on grass just off of the drive way and the arena is fenced.

I’d have to disagree as the farm owners don’t have all the risks, I’m held liable when it comes to my students. Waivers may not be completely covering us but it has a lot in it regarding suing, lawyers etc. It’s better then not having any waivers when they come. 

That’s the other part is figuring out how to word it to my students parents. I’m definitely not pocketing it but I’ll probably end up taking a loss.


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> Nope, HLG, this isn't a fairness issue but a contract issue. As long as the current contract is in force, and OP uses facilities as stipulated by the contract (verbal or written), they have no right to assess a fee. I find it extortionary to do so, especially with the implied thread, "We wouldn't want anything to happen to your horses now, do we?" In a contract dispute about the terms of the contract, courts will always side against the party who drew up the contract, because they should have known what they considered fair. They will provide services and facilities for the price they asked for and that OP agreed to pay, or they'll be in breach.
> 
> It's really bad PR for the barn, so unless they are in a quasi monopoly situation in their local market, they should tread carefully.


I totally agree with you, I feel like it is a contract issue, and if that’s the case what about other coaches that come in to use the facilities to teach? Will they be charged a $10 fee as well?

I’m going to have to read over my boarding contract again, just so I’m clear on everything but I have been warned by other people that the owners can be kind of sketchy so be careful and watch your stuff. I was also warned to make sure I get receipts for everything I pay them for including board.

It was just a verbal contract about the coaching on her facility unfortunately, and that’s probably where I should have put a contract in place but..I’ve never had a problem before so I didn’t think twice about it.

This will probably be one of those lesson learned moments and I’ll unfortunately lose out on this one.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

If you have been warned by others that the owners are kind of sketchy then I think you have your answer. :frown_color:

I would get out while everything is relatively ok before it all goes downhill. Follow your gut on this. 

They may prefer boarders who are rarely there and not really using the facility. 

I would bet they used text to have a record of the new rule. 

You could try to negotiate (by text for record purposes) a lower price, maybe $5/student. Tell them that your students do not have a lot of money and you are trying to encourage the sport by offering low-cost lessons and the $10 would be a hardship for the students. 

But watch your back and your possessions especially your HORSE. If you have been warned off this place and went there anyway, would be very, very careful. 

It might even be difficult to move your horse away when the time comes. Would get in the habit of trailering places on a regular basis so it doesn't seem unusual if and when you decide to relocate. (Don't give these folks notice until after your horse is relocated) 

If it was me I would get out now. I've been to a couple of places that really did not go well. In every case, the boarders were rarely there...and the facilities were not being utilized. One place the only other boarder I saw there told me he never put his horses in the pasture and was soon to move to his own place. I was only there 2 months and by the end of that time I didn't let my horse out of his stall either...


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## DressageDreams (Dec 6, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> If you have been warned by others that the owners are kind of sketchy then I think you have your answer. <img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://www.horseforum.com/images/smilies/frown_color.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Frown Color" class="inlineimg" />
> 
> I would get out while everything is relatively ok before it all goes downhill. Follow your gut on this.
> 
> ...


Of course I was warned while I was already there. Someone was talking to me about it just last week.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if that’s why they did it over text rather then to my face. Now they have record of it.

My horse comes first in this whole situation, we moved to this place from a bad situation where my horse had lost a lot of weight. He’s now made huge progress and he is happy there. 

From here on out I’m going to have to be really careful, and I’ll be on a look out for another barn that’s close by that I could move to, and I’ll patiently be waiting to win the lottery so I can start building my own place now 🙂


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

You're not going to like this but I will give you the side of reality not patting you on the back and saying you been done wrong...

Did I miss something, a conversation or another thread and post about this place and you?
No place did I pick up that you were "warned off" the place"_* before*_ entering in a boarding contract situation.
No where do/did I see _you mention_ you are concerned or fear for your horses existence and rights to use/see/ride/pet your horse...
I saw you state a contract was signed. 
I saw where you claimed you mentioned teaching and no response came from the B/O...you made no mention of making a official addendum to your contract about teaching and fees you are responsible for or not.
So, all is hearsay.

Is what you pay $325 a month for pasture board a lot? :shrug:
IDK...what do other places charge and what amenities do they offer their boarders? 
{where I'm from there is no pasture board. Full stall board is $1,200+ per month 5 years ago, that is *not* a typo!!}
You _have_ a outdoor fenced grass ring, you_ have_ a indoor arena {regardless of "small" it _*is*_ a riding sized indoor}, you _have_ a rustic bathroom, you _have_ near the barn parking and basically you _have_ the place all to yourself...
A monopoly if there aren't other places nearby with a indoor _the barn owners have_...winter is coming soon and using that indoor so you can ride guess is where you need to be.
That grass ring whether it has a few weeds in it is still a firm footing to ride on and one that it sounds the owners have been doing upkeep on same as the rest of the property.

As for this that you said, _" I feel like it is a contract issue, and if that’s the case what about other coaches that come in to use the facilities to teach? Will they be charged a $10 fee as well?"_
It isn't any of your business being bluntly honest...what they do with others is their business not yours.
You have now been told a ring fee is being charged, period.
You either pay it or don't teach...that is your choice and ultimatum they have given you.
Since you have nothing in writing stating otherwise...they do now have in writing that you were notified of this now being in effect from a text sent.
How you decide to pay that fee, by collecting it or by losing some of your profit is all up to you actually.
You do not know what their insurance policy now may state about boarding versus lessons being taught by whomever.
And you are sadly mistaken if you think they would not be sued by a savvy attorney if one of your students was hurt on _*their land*_..._you yourself better be very well insured!!:|_

So, I will share I managed several boarding barns, lesson barns, show barns in my younger years.
They had on staff qualified instructors those barns that taught "lessons"...
If you chose to bring in someone from outside, then you as the boarder paid a ring fee for that privilege.
If you as a outsider came to use our indoor arena{trailered in} riding your own horse in a lesson with a outside instructor you paid the fee for bringing a horse in_* and*_ a fee for taking a lesson with a outside instructor. So you paid double or you paid for the horse and the instructor paid the barn, but the fees _were_ collected.
If the instructor was a boarder but not a staff instructor and was going to teach a lesson...now remember instructor boards her horse on the premise..._she pays a ring fee for teaching a lesson on her horse._
_This was more than 30 years ago..._
Honestly, few ever know this takes place as most who ride at a barn take instruction with the barns instructors.
Those that trailer in to utilize a establishments facilities regardless of time of year for lessons, they pay a fee to use the facility.
When you are the only game in town and that is how you make this place sound with_ "The indoor is something I need as we get really bad winters here and I myself would like to keep riding and to give the students an opportunity to keep riding. The next barns with indoors are over 30mins away, not a drive I’d like to do all the time in the winter nor would I like to lose even more students"_...
They've got you...:|
It's nearly October...
Most places with indoor arenas if not full will be within a few weeks, stalls are probably already spoken for and will be filling within October and be full till spring thaw...

If your horse has been well taken care of, and you make it sound like he has since he came from a bad situation and is thriving here...
Suddenly you are listening to gossip and those who want to stir you up..._it's working._
Has it ever occurred to you that people may have a attitude against a facility or owner if they were asked/told to leave...you would and will.
Bad-mouth a facility and anything about it...
The horse business and horse-world is very small and rumors spread like wildfire.
Some are founded, many are disgruntled and want to complain or talk and have no reason to...
What goes around comes around...remember that.

My best suggestion would be to sit down and talk with both owners together.
Why not approach them with...
"This is my current number of students...can we do a increase of $5 a head to those, and any new students will pay the $10 fee...then price your lessons accordingly."
The worst you get is a answer of, "No."
The best you get is "That will work..."
Then be honest and pay them what they want or face looking at the door and no place to go and winter is here...
Few instructors share with their students that they pay ring fees....they just do it out of their fee charged.
Change that boarders contract to state the terms both are now held to...signed and if a notary is available, do it to protect both parties.
Honestly, few know the inner workings of boarding/lesson/show/training/R&R barns unless they were in a administrative position...and I *did not* know all of it either.
I was a employee but one who had a lot of responsibility to the financial well-being of that business, all the animals and all the human inhabitants of said facility. 

Just be careful of what you say, how you say it, to whom you say it, where you say it...the horse-world has ears and mouths that twist and spit out half-truths and much wrongs. :frown_color:
Be very careful of what is implied and how you react and respond to it is my warning...
_Where I worked, if my bosses {the B/O} got wind of this conversation...you would have 3 days to get out! No kidding...*OUT!!*
_
_I offer you good luck and tread carefully...you do not hold the trump card, they do!_
_On that I bid you :wave:_

:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

My first reaction on reading this: I would calmly tell them that that is not the agreement they made with you, and that you will not be paying that fee. If they don't want you to teach there then you will be looking for another barn to board at.

If you don't stand your ground on this one thing, they'll try to hit you with more and more other things. I had landlords like this once. Don't let them start.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Make sure you get EVERYTHING in text. You want hard copy! Your agreement is contained in the four corners of your boarding contract, anything verbal outside that contract is invalid unless it is amended in the original contract and signed by both parties. I would just keep on giving lessons and not paying them the $10 per lesson and look for another place.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

SteadyOn said:


> My first reaction on reading this: I would calmly tell them that that is not the agreement they made with you, and that you will not be paying that fee. If they don't want you to teach there then you will be looking for another barn to board at.
> 
> If you don't stand your ground on this one thing, they'll try to hit you with more and more other things. I had landlords like this once. Don't let them start.


It would be risky to do this unless she has a backup plan already in place. They BO have no reason to need her one horse, as they may have others wanting to move in (I don't know how full the barn is) 

On the other hand, if she can get them to agree to only $5.00 then the BO will may be eager to keep her there and helpful to the students so they can get the extra income. 



waresbear said:


> Make sure you get EVERYTHING in text. You want hard copy! Your agreement is contained in the four corners of your boarding contract, anything verbal outside that contract is invalid unless it is amended in the original contract and signed by both parties. I would just keep on giving lessons and not paying them the $10 per lesson and look for another place.



It might be risky to ignore their demands. IMO negotiation might be a better plan, at least until she has something lined up.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

When one is dealing with business issues, one must try to keep all emotion out of the situation. Money is what the owners will understand, increase money while decreasing their involvement and/or finances. 


So would make clear that if they have "outside trainers" come, they could then charge the $10 fee. She as a boarder using her horse should be eligible for a discount to $5.00. Maybe with an increase in Spring to $6.00 so to keep the students coming over the winter. 


Negotiate, give everyone time to think things over, work out the details, then draw up a formal agreement. 

Tell the owners that you need to have your attorney review the contract prior to signing. That puts this on a business footing and the owners can see that you are business savvy  plus it buys you time...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Yeah you might be better to just negotiate a better price. Figure out what it would cost to move, extra drivin, may be a loss of a student and then lowball them. Tell them if you raise the prices, you would lose students, they are already maxed at your prices. I would negotiate an end-of-the-month price to teach lessons and put it in the contract. Like an extra 30 or 40 bucks a month. Also that price hike does not come into play retroactively it comes at the time of amending the contract put that in there.p


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

waresbear said:


> Yeah you might be better to just negotiate a better price. Figure out what it would cost to move, extra drivin, may be a loss of a student and then lowball them. Tell them if you raise the prices, you would lose students, they are already maxed at your prices. I would negotiate an end-of-the-month price to teach lessons and put it in the contract. Like an extra 30 or 40 bucks a month. Also that price hike does not come into play retroactively it comes at the time of amending the contract put that in there.p


This would be an option, but then the owners would not be vested in helping her obtain and retain students. She needs the owners working with her, not against her.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

$30 for this many students $40 for that many students $50 for this many students and so on. Maybe, this is internet advice take it with a grain of salt😉.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

Definitely a contract issue. Separate from your personal boarding contract. You'll need some legal help to make sure it's fair and equitable. Also check with your state/area regarding insurance you may be required to carry as an instructor. You need a written and signed contract spelling out how you compensate them and what they have to provide in return. Sorry, but the days of Cindy teaching little Dawn how to ride are long gone in our litigious culture. That being said, you can always offer to compensate them in non monetary ways such as labor. But if it's a small mom and pop place, they may insist on money. 

Running a boarding facility of any size is a money pit. No one gets rich doing it. Feed, hay, manure removal, utilities, repairs, insurance, property taxes, non paying boarders all eat away at any big profits you may think they're getting every month.


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## FreedomFarm1978 (Sep 25, 2018)

This can be looked at from both perspectives. Like mentioned above...you pay the amount to board the horse. Does it seem high? Yes. We offer pasture boarding for $150 plus the cost of fly management and it puts ya at $190 monthly. Feed and such would be extra. 

What are you getting for your lessons? It seems fair to ask for $10 per lesson. After all they are the ones who had to pay for the land, build the fences, and hold the expense for you to be able to hold your lessons there. Not many people would let you do it for free. $10 is fair. 

Down the road when you have to invest time, money, and credit into your own place you will better understand why that $10 is fair.

Could it have been laid out a little better? Discussed up front? Yes. On your behalf and the land owners. 

Good luck! Just pay the $10 take pride in the facility you have to use and book more lessons. Wish ya the best!


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

I feel very fortunate right now as my barn does not charge for a trainer giving lessons there, although the difference may be that the trainer comes in and we use our own horses. The only outside person involved is the trainer, who signed a waiver with the BO.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I also have to say, that is pretty high for pasture board. :O But I assume it's a really nice facility. 

They should have had that in the contract...not sure why they all of a sudden, after 2mos, are telling you this. I'd also keep my options open, don't let them nitpick you. I understand it's their land/barn, but a contract is a contract. They also should have told you in person, not through text...that's not very upfront.

If others are telling you to be careful, & that they can be sketchy...not saying you should necessarily listen to them, but definitely read over your boarding contract & protect yourself at all costs. Look into other options/places. Them throwing this on you all of a sudden isn't exactly OK. Maybe that is why not a lot of boarders are there much...it makes sense...you're paying an awful lot for pasture board, & that doesn't even include grain, now they are doing this?


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## humanartrebel1020 (Nov 12, 2018)

I think you do not work for them. However if they want to charge you they should write up a new contract or waver. I think it is correct to charge you since you have not been there long but will have people and horses constantly in and out of their property using their land on your behalf. I think 345 is high for no stall or grain, consider everything if you choose on staying, like treatment and standards of the barn.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

I've owned horses, boarded, trained and given lessons for 40 plus years and have noticed that people who own/run boarding stables aren't very business-like in general. I'm sure they saw you using their facilities and making money and decided they should get a cut. Like it or not, this IS the normal for using someone else's business to make money, your barn owners simply never thought about it until they actually saw you actually giving those lessons. None of my clients were rich but all were willing to pay the extra "ring" fee when it was explained to them. 

Oh, and by the way when people sue over horse accidents they don't just include you, the land/stable owner is also liable (and lawyers love to go after people with real assets-Land, houses, buildings etc.)

Your BOs were what I call "passive/aggressive" in letting you know about the lesson fee-Texting is the cowardly way to deal with clients but I seen many barn owners do this. Ten dollars per lesson is quite high unless this is a super clean, super fancy stable with great amenities. Five dollars a lesson is the most I've ever paid as an instructor and where I board now I don't pay anything. They do have the right to charge you for using their property, go to them and nicely state your case and get them to come down to $5.00. Of course with the ridiculous board you are paying, they might not negotiate.

You are paying an outrageous amount of money for board for what little you get but that means there must be a shortage of boarding stables. Boarding stables can only charge what the market will bear so you probably don't have the option to move and I agree with you-_Pasture is essential!!_
You can bet that at this point, if they are business savvy (which most aren't), they have already added the ring fee to their boarding contract!


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