# Parelli Training???



## heather313233 (Aug 28, 2018)

I am looking at getting a new mare from a very dear friend who does not have time for her anymore. She really wants this horse to be ridden and worked, but is very specific about the home and who would be caring for her. I am honored to be asked to take her. She said this half-arabian mare is Parelli trained and I am trying to understand what this means, but google is not helping me out very much. Can anyone here explain what this means and how handling her would be different from handling a horse trained in another way?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

She is talking about the ground manners and the way it was taught on the ground. If you google natural horsemanship you should get better resposnses from the internet. It's basically respect taught through a set of games. It can actually work well and you can end up with well behaved horses but a lot of people do it wrong or misenterperate what is being taught so they end up with horses that are on top of you and unruley. You'll have to see the horse to find out which kind it is!

If you search the 7 games of parelli you should be able to see videos. Parelli is basically a marketing genius. He took common sense and crammed it into a bunch of DVDs. Again - it's important to not drink the koolaide with this one because you can go south very quickly. I have met many brainwashed parelli fans... My sister in law actually is a fan and her horses are actually very well mannered.


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## loganick (Dec 27, 2009)

There are many types of Natural Horsemanship training out there, and Parelli is based on the concept of predator/prey, Alpha training. They teach a lot about horse language, but lack feel and passive leadership. We are not and never will be horses, so we need to make friendships built on trust/respect/feel, not parelli. lol At least have the mare worked by someone else and get their personal opinion of her first? (*There are different "Levels" in parelli, and a lot of mistakes in training horses can happen in the learning, hence Level one horses are constantly on the market- They get soured from all the poking and demanding.) Good luck!


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## loganick (Dec 27, 2009)

"Can anyone here explain what this means and how handling her would be different from handling a horse trained in another way?" 



Just watch the ears and tails on horses when they are ridden. Parelli horses often hold their ears back like they are annoyed all the time. Probably are.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

So...not everyone follows the "names" today that are marketing geniuses and a advertisers money-pit.
If the person who taught was really good a disciple of Parelli, then the horse should be versed in handling and respect given...
What you do with that is totally up to you once you take ownership of the horse...
Fine to keep on keeping on or it is also fine to change up some things if you want or need to fit your needs.
You're dealing with a living, breathing animal with a brain who must now acclimate to you and your methods...

Much stuff is gimmicky...basic good handling is tweaked and emphasized...
I can't stress though that if the handler is not versed in good communication skills then the horse is also not going to respond perfectly in return.
Call it a learning curve if you want to learn the games of Parelli or follow any of the other fad training programs of today...
But just remember not everyone likes Parelli, nor Clinton Anderson, nor Buck Buchanan, nor any of the other dozens of trainers hyped, advertised and marketed...
The horse if handled and trained though should have a great base of knowledge, then you tweak to make it fit your comfort level and wants...
Training level of expertise is also very dependent upon the person training and their skills level as a trainer...

Might I suggest if you take on this horse you exchange $1.00 minimum and a "Bill-of-Sale" with clear description of the horse _{picture is better}_, condition of the horse is stated so ownership is clear-cut done...and not ever face the "I gave you...." sometime down the road she decides she not like something and wants to take the horse back...
Sadly, tomorrow is a unknown in things like this....friends today and not tomorrow can make difficult impossible.
Bill of Sale erases all that ugliness...
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo.._


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## heather313233 (Aug 28, 2018)

I was already planning on making some kind of actual purchase on this horse. I am trying to pay fair price, but being a friend she is also recommending a $1 purchase. I plan on going to the property and working and riding her a little myself before making a decision. Based on pictures I have seen, she is in very good shape and seems to be very ridable. I will certainly do my research on this mare, though. I have access to some of her bloodline information and so I will do some research on her parents and possibly grandparents along with research on her specifically.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

I like your plan. Plus when you go see her perhaps the owner can show you what the horse has been taught so far. By watching you'll probably see that it's not much different from how you handle a horse. Since she's interested in a Parelli type home, do some internet research and watch a few videos to get used to the terminology. So much of it is common sense, I'm sure you'll fit right in. Being familiar with some basic concepts may help your friend feel comfortable with you. She's probably just put in lots of time with this method and doesn't want that bonding potential to be ruined by someone who just slaps a saddle on and gallops off. Let us know what happens!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You probably won't find the horse much different to any other horse provided your friend is a common sense person who's had a full understanding of what they're doing.
I know people who've followed Parelli and the horses have turned out just fine so I think its more about the human doing it right or wrong where results are concerned


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

loganick said:


> There are many types of Natural Horsemanship training out there, and Parelli i*s based on the concept of predator/prey, Alpha training. * *They teach a lot about horse language, but lack feel and passive leadership*. We are not and never will be horses, so we need to make friendships built on trust/respect/feel, not parelli. lol At least have the mare worked by someone else and get their personal opinion of her first? (*There are different "Levels" in parelli, and a lot of mistakes in training horses can happen in the learning, hence Level one horses are constantly on the market- They get soured from all the poking and demanding.) Good luck!





My experience is that almost any so-called 'natural horsemanship' aproach works on the 'predator/prey' relationsship. and almost ALL horse training incorporates the "Alpha" concept.


I'm curious as to what you mean with the 'lack of feel and passive leadership'. I'm not saying i disagree, just wanting some clarification, perhaps with examples.




As to the OP, perhaps the owner who is rehoming her beloved mare simply wants someone to understand HOW she has been trained, so they won't scold her for doing something that she has been trained to think is ok.


For example: Parelli teaches that, in free lunging, or even in lunging on a rope, the handler stands still in the middle, and the horse is set into a certain gait, and the horse is expected to circle the handler, maintaining that gait, until the handler says otherwise. The handler doe NOT circle with the horse, and is in fact stock still in the center.


This is totally counter to what I was taught. So, If someone handed me a horse that kept trotting around me when I stopped my own motion, I would have to correct that horse, . . . and if . . I did it harshly, this would be unfair to the horse. 



This is what I think your friend wants to avoid; anything that isn't fair to the horse .


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Just subbing

My (now ex) boarder was training her horse in Parelli. Her horse was good in some ways, but definitely appeared more and more unhappy as time went on. 

I know she did not give the horse an opportunity to learn in small increments, but that could have been just this person and not a Parelli thing.

What @tinyliny said is true; the person while lunging stands still in the middle. I wasn't a fan of this because it appeared unsafe, especially when the horse did not go around as she expected. The lunge line would catch on her leg or even once on her head when she raised it up. 

They also want the horse to back up by wiggling their finger at it, then escalate if no response to shaking the lead rope sort of like a snake. 

I think Parelli was the originator of calling a whip the "carrot stick" 


What I objected to was her trying to train my horses in that manner, when I never asked or wanted her to do anything beyond helping with occasional feedings.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

If this is a horse you plan to buy I suggest ignoring any claims of previous training. Try the horse out for you self and handle it like you would any other horse. If the horse is well trained that training will show up. If needed take an experienced horse person with you to try out the horse.

Parelli refers a training system that was developed to break down the training steps for beginners to learn/follow over an extended period of time. The systems success varies greatly depending on the person that is applying it. How well a horse is trained is dependent on the experience & knowledge of the trainer and not training system. 

Best of luck


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

AnitaAnne said:


> Just subbing
> 
> My (now ex) boarder was training her horse in Parelli. Her horse was good in some ways, but definitely appeared more and more unhappy as time went on.
> 
> ...


 I think you will find these sort of differences in all sorts of places, not just Parelli v. everyone else
For example, I expect horses that I break and train to progress on the lunge to only needing verbal cues. I stand still in the middle and use no body language at all once the horse has reached that stage. I do it that way (as do many others) because the verbal cues are useful when you first start to ride the horse, body language is no use at all then. However in the early days of lunge training I do use a lunge whip to reinforce verbal cues
I never use the rope wiggling thing to ask a horse to back up


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Many people avoid 'Parellied' horses like the plague... many of them are spoiled, aggressive, bad attitude and the like. It's not the method that's the problem, it is that most of the people doing the training have no clue what they are doing and end up messing up their horses.

When I see "Parelli" in a horse ad, I keep right on scrolling. Too many bad experiences with these horses that needed to be taken right back to the beginning and restarted to make them good citizens and get their 'want to' attitude back.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

jaydee said:


> I think you will find these sort of differences in all sorts of places, not just Parelli v. everyone else
> For example, I expect horses that I break and train to progress on the lunge to only needing verbal cues. I stand still in the middle and use no body language at all once the horse has reached that stage. I do it that way (as do many others) because the verbal cues are useful when you first start to ride the horse, body language is no use at all then. However in the early days of lunge training I do use a lunge whip to reinforce verbal cues
> I never use the rope wiggling thing to ask a horse to back up


Thank you for that. Conventional training has ruined millions of horses but that never comes up in the Parelli discussion. As for rope wiggling...it's not about the rope. Parelli teaches the concept of pressure and release by describing "phases" of pressure, going from the pressure of body language to strong touch, with adequate time to allow the horse to respond. Horses learn to move away from body language. There are several methods he teaches to have the horse yield backward. Only one of them employs rope wiggling. But phase one is body language including waving a finger. Pressure is increased through wrist, then elbow, then arm movements that cause the rope to disturb the halter sufficiently to cause the horse to think about moving backward. One cannot believe the infinite uses for this skill until one has experienced how easy it is to move a horse around by tapping the air.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

SilverMaple said:


> Many people avoid 'Parellied' horses like the plague... many of them are spoiled, aggressive, bad attitude and the like. It's not the method that's the problem, it is that most of the people doing the training have no clue what they are doing and end up messing up their horses.
> 
> When I see "Parelli" in a horse ad, I keep right on scrolling. Too many bad experiences with these horses that needed to be taken right back to the beginning and restarted to make them good citizens and get their 'want to' attitude back.


Forgive me for reminiscing about all the horses I'd encountered that were ruined by so called traditional handling. These troubled individuals are what drives many people to seek alternative ways. 
I have a favorite saying... I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. I have found this to apply to many things about which I am passionate, yet fail to inspire others with my arcane knowledge. That includes managing soil to produce highly nutritious forage, and harnessing a driving horse for optimal efficiency and comfort. Any teacher will have low performing students...you have only to look at the high school dropout rate in Oregon. I don't blame Parelli for the failure of others. He's not the problem. Slipshod application of his techniques by people who will never get any method of horse training is more likely the issue. One need only look around at the rude children and dogs in this world to identify the principal flaw in modern education.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The people that say their horses are "Parelli-trained" are generally those who aren't doing it properly and have spoiled horses. Seen it a zillion times. Those who are using it correctly so it helps their horses aren't the ones bragging about it. They consider it another method in their training arsenal, use bits and pieces as needed, and consider it training, not 'Parelli' training.

When "knows the 7 Games" or "trained completely with Parelli methods" appears in a sale ad, that's a red flag to me, and a lot of other people. Parelli has figured out how to market is technique, and his target market, and that target market tends to not be good horse trainers....


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

dogpatch said:


> Thank you for that. Conventional training has ruined millions of horses but that never comes up in the Parelli discussion. As for rope wiggling...it's not about the rope. Parelli teaches the concept of pressure and release by describing "phases" of pressure, going from the pressure of body language to strong touch, with adequate time to allow the horse to respond. Horses learn to move away from body language. There are several methods he teaches to have the horse yield backward. Only one of them employs rope wiggling. But phase one is body language including waving a finger. Pressure is increased through wrist, then elbow, then arm movements that cause the rope to disturb the halter sufficiently to cause the horse to think about moving backward. One cannot believe the infinite uses for this skill until one has experienced how easy it is to move a horse around by tapping the air.


That may be true, but why would it be wrong to just say "back up"? That's all I do with mine...

Why should I wiggle my finger around? As a person that can't talk without moving my hands, I would get aggravated if my horses shifted around just because I was talking to someone...

Her horse never did care about that finger wiggle, and then the owner would get more and more aggravated. I could put one finger barely touching her mare's chest and the horse would back up without issue for me as long and as far as I wanted. So why is that wrong? 

IMO people have to be flexible and not follow any guru so strictly and completely. A good horse owner learns how to read their horses and change up their queues until they get the desired response. 

Plus as @jaydee stated, it is much easier for horses to adjust to verbal aids when changing from unmounted to mounted work. How is the horse supposed to see my finger wiggle when I am riding? Sorry it just doesn't make sense to me...

My training is a combination of teaching I have received from many very experienced horse people, starting with a old gentleman who used to drive a horse drawn fire engine to a USDF gold medalist and everything in between.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

dogpatch said:


> ...Pressure is increased through wrist, then elbow, then arm movements that cause the rope to disturb the halter sufficiently to cause the horse to think about moving backward. One cannot believe the infinite uses for this skill until one has experienced how easy it is to move a horse around by tapping the air.


You're right. I cannot believe moving a horse around by tapping the air has infinite uses. Perhaps more to the point, I have never experienced a NEED to move my horse around by tapping the air.

I wouldn't automatically pass up a horse trained by a Parelli fan - or a horse trained in dressage, or a horse trained a la Clinton Anderson. In each, though, I would assume what I've found true buying Craigslist horses - that any horse I buy will come with baggage of some sort, and we'll work thru those issues. And if someone bought one of my horses, they would probably find the horse did things they didn't care for, or didn't do things they do care for, and thus would need "training".

I would also expect ANYONE dedicated to one system of training or use of horses to view me like a turd floating around in the equine punchbowl. I would expect a number of Parelli and NH fans to be appalled at my refusal to round pen or lunge a horse who already knows the basics of riding. Others would be appalled at my frequent lack of contact, or because my heels are rarely under my hip. But then, any seller who wanted to watch me ride or work a horse before they would sell me a horse would lose a customer. And if someone wanted to dictate how I would interact with a horse they sold me, I'd flee like demons of hell were chasing me.

The horse I ride now was ridden in a bosal for most purposes, with a snaffle bit as an emergency brake. The moment I started to take slack out of the reins, he'd stop ASAP! Took a few rides for him to get comfortable with me using the bit differently, but it really wasn't a big deal. Teaching him to relax while being ridden was much harder! But...buy for personality, size, build, breed, experience. I don't think it takes a horse long to say, "_Oooh, THIS guy is different!_" But then, maybe that is because I am SOOOO different...

PS: A very good boss I once had said he hired for a certain level of intelligence and for good attitude. He said if someone was minimally intelligent and had a good attitude, he could teach the person what was needed. But changing a bad attitude ranged from difficult to impossible...maybe more so when the 'new employee' is a thousand pounds of muscle! I'd much rather have a "sweet" horse than a horse trained in any one thing.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

dogpatch said:


> ...I don't blame Parelli for the failure of others. He's not the problem...


Actually, a teacher who has a large percentage of poor students usually IS the problem.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I think you will find these sort of differences in all sorts of places, not just Parelli v. everyone else
> For example, I expect horses that I break and train to progress on the lunge to only needing verbal cues. I stand still in the middle and use no body language at all once the horse has reached that stage. I do it that way (as do many others) because the verbal cues are useful when you first start to ride the horse, body language is no use at all then. However in the early days of lunge training I do use a lunge whip to reinforce verbal cues
> I never use the rope wiggling thing to ask a horse to back up


I agree. I voice train all my horses. Very helpful when teaching kids to ride also. A horse that knows verbal queues can be controlled by the instructor while the child learns from the saddle.

The only issue I ever had with this was when I was competing in a pleasure driving class and one of my competitors discovered that my horses were all voice trained. She came up behind me in a class and just as her horse was passing me, she made the smooch sound and my gelding obediently broke into a canter :evil: Poor sportsmanship at its finest! Last laugh was on her though, because I still placed above her :Angel:

I also see no reason to call a whip anything else but a whip. Crop, bat, lunging whip, driving whip, all have specific meanings...I won't share what I think when I hear "carrot stick" but my estimation of the person's skills goes down.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm not a fan of the Parelli stuff, but I wouldn't even give that a second thought. Check out the horse, go for a few rides, etc. and make your decision. If the owner has anything she wants to show you, that's fine too.

You'll be able to figure out what she knows and what she doesn't know, cues, etc. How old is the mare?


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

AnitaAnne said:


> That may be true, but why would it be wrong to just say "back up"? That's all I do with mine...
> 
> Why should I wiggle my finger around? As a person that can't talk without moving my hands, I would get aggravated if my horses shifted around just because I was talking to someone...
> 
> ...


Jolly good credentials. 

Ah, but you see, nobody said anyone was wrong using their own method. It seems logical to me that one would not expect these ground skills to have identical applications under saddle. Collectively, we would hope that teaching the horse to respond to the softest cues from the ground would not only carry through in all aspects of training, but also teach the horse person how to be soft, as well as considerate. These traits are not instinctive, especially for those frustrated individuals who have trained under the iron fist of an aggressive instructor. 

A use for the yield backward from body language came to me as I was reading a thread about a horse that wouldn't back out of a trailer. I've been teaching my new mare to back through her stall door. This worried her greatly a time of two, but because of some of the other ground skills, I was able to overcome her claustrophobia about the doorway, help her line up, and back in with cues she trusts. Such a simulation would be useful for horses that panic backing out of a trailer.

The so called games find their use when combined creatively to ask the horse for many tasks on the ground, as well as giving the handler a true understanding of "feel", timing and release. It is an inescapable fact that those who do not ever "get" those things will not succeed with horses. It doesn't matter from whom these things are learned.

In general desired behaviors are put on verbal cue after the behavior is solid on a physical cue. You don't wiggle your finger from the saddle, that is absurd. Yielding is a behavior that is built upon step by step. Body language is an easy cue to learn on the ground. As the horse learns that a slight disturbance on the halter means yield back, it is a small leap to step back from a small movement of the bit. Thence a small shift in the saddle. Or is to better to fix your hand and "drive" the horse into the bit, as one discipline demands? Either method may work. It is great that we have true options to explore on our way to effective communication with our horses.


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## heather313233 (Aug 28, 2018)

Thank you all for the great information. I really understand the technique now. Sadly, I will not be getting this mare. I would really love to, but we do not have the financial abilities to get another horse right now. It may be for the best, because I need to focus on the mare I have.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

dogpatch said:


> Jolly good credentials.
> 
> Ah, but you see, nobody said anyone was wrong using their own method. It seems logical to me that one would not expect these ground skills to have identical applications under saddle. Collectively, we would hope that teaching the horse to respond to the softest cues from the ground would not only carry through in all aspects of training, but also teach the horse person how to be soft, as well as considerate. These traits are not instinctive, especially for those frustrated individuals who have trained under the iron fist of an aggressive instructor.
> 
> ...


I am not sure how much she did was Parelli and how much wasn't. I just know that I was expected to be impressed by her skills and want to learn...and I didn't. I would find it interesting to watch, but that was the end. 


Each to their own...


But funny you should mention the backing thing, because that happened to her horse too! My trailer is a straight load with a ramp. We had no problem after the first ride with loading or unloading her mare from my trailer. She rode in it at least 6 times without any problems. 

Then when she got her own trailer, she wanted to use hers instead of riding in mine. She had a steel two horse straight load, step up, no ramp. 

The horse loaded ok, but getting it off was horrible! The mare just wouldn't back off at all. I finally convinced her to back up the trailer to a place where the ground was higher. It took a long time still for her to get the horse out. Like so long we wound up not going on a ride at all. Personally I don't think the mare could have mentally handled any thing else. 

So then she started working on backing, down a hill, down a step, etc. Parked the trailer at the barn against a hill so it was about 6 inches to the ground. She tried to teach her to back by tugging on her tail too. The person did this stuff for WEEKS and still the mare would not back off. I told her to just take the divider out and let the horse turn around and jump out. 

She finally conceded defeat and took the center partition out... 

Meanwhile the mare started bucking and even rearing under saddle :frown_color:

The horse was unhappy. 

IMO people that are focused on reading the horse can use any method and get good results, its trying to teach people by video that just doesn't work. IMO these gurus, any of them, are just trying to generate income from a larger group of people than what they can reach in person. Then marketing products like a "carrot stick" (!) instead of telling folks to go buy a whip...

It's not that what they are doing that is necessarily wrong, but I am so tired of getting "instructions" from people that watched some guru on the internet and have no idea what they are seeing me or my horses do :evil:


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

Good decision (darned slow growing money trees!)
I hope when the next good opportunity comes along it will be the right horse at the right time 🙂


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> I think you will find these sort of differences in all sorts of places, not just Parelli v. everyone else
> For example, I expect horses that I break and train to progress on the lunge to only needing verbal cues. I stand still in the middle and use no body language at all once the horse has reached that stage. I do it that way (as do many others) because the verbal cues are useful *when you first start to ride the horse, body language is no use at all then.* However in the early days of lunge training I do use a lunge whip to reinforce verbal cues
> *I never use the rope wiggling thing to ask a horse to back up*





I have to disagree. Body language is always useful, in or out of the saddle. It is about 'raising' and lowering the 'life' in your body. That happens whether you are next to them on the ground, or in the saddle. They are very attuned to body language most , since it is their own method of communication. Verbal cues can be helpful, but will they really work, totally divorced from supporting body language? I bet you anything, when you say, "T-rot!" for in up transition to trot from a walk, there is some change in your body, that the horse senses. Additionally, will the horse go from walk to trot, to canter, to halt, ALL on verbal cues alone? literally without any body language , which means use of your body weight, how tall or short you sit, how you breathe or hold your breath, how relaxed or stiff you are, etc.
The finest riders I've ever seen, English or Western, use almost no verbal cues whatsoever.




Oh, and about backing a hrose, I'm curious how you back a horse away from you, if you are not right up next to it where you can grab its' halter and push, or push into its chest. I mean, if you were 6 feet away from your horse, but you needed to back him up a bit more, while staying where you were, how would you do that?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

There is a slight difference between a 'carrot stick' and a whip. The whip has a much faster action. It is very hard to get the slow, rolling action they like from the string part of the carrot stick, out of a whip. And, the stiff part of the carrot stick is used to tap harder, or even push on a horse. 



Personally, the carrot stick thing drives me crazy. It's slow and heavy and I can't really impart any urgency or command through it, if I want to. I suppose this might be what they like. But, If I really want to make a memorable impression, with a dressage whip, or a small lunge whip, whacking the ground, or vibrating back and forth in the air, I can . Which a 'carrot' stick, I'm all thumbs while the moment of need for a correct is lost.




There is a lot of value in being able to back a horse from a distance. If you can do it by a mear verbal command, great. Most people who are using a verbal command are also usuing some body language. That's the only way to impart your intention, That's why a hrose won't back off of just any old waving of a hand, as you might be talking with them to friends. They back off your hand waving AT them, with intention.


Really, it's INTENTION that they read. If you can impart by voice alone, great. Or, with your hands or fingers, or a leadline. As someone said, the value of getting a hrose to move with a feel on the leadline is that it most readily translates to a feel on a rein.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Oh, and about backing a hrose, I'm curious how you back a horse away from you, if you are not right up next to it where you can grab its' halter and push, or push into its chest. I mean, if you were 6 feet away from your horse, but you needed to back him up a bit more, while staying where you were, how would you do that?


I tell mine to back up, because they learn a verbal queue when I am pushing at their chest....it’s a progression, step one, touch the chest, ask for back, then increase pressure until you get it. Once they will back up from a very light touch and a verbal, it isn’t much of a stretch to be able to do it by pointing, or just asking.

I just personally hate the whole wiggly rope thing, because so often it causes the horse to throw its head up as it backs, and I never want them backing head up.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A trainer who was licensed by John Lyons tried to teach Mia to back up using the shaking rope / "making yourself big" thing with Mia. It got to the point she was jumping up and down in front of Mia, waving her arms, huffing and puffing from exertion.

Mia didn't move. Mia was bewildered. Was the woman hurt? Had she been stung by bees? Had space aliens captured her soul? Mia stared, eyes wide. 

So I asked if I could try something. I walked to Mia, said back, and placed my hand on her chest. She started backing, and we turned a corner and continued. Mia sighed. I said that was good enough for me.

"Well", said the lady - a very nice lady who truly loves horses - "If you are happy, I am too. Let's go to the next thing." She approached Mia carefully, gave her some face rubs, and Mia decided the bees must have left and it was OK to work with the lady again.

Most of what Parelli does is pressure and release in response to trained cues. He uses "body language" because you cannot be a horse whisperer if you admit you are just teaching cues using reward and punishment. No one will buy tickets if you say you use punishment to teach a horse to obey subtle trained cues. THAT isn't special!










> The researchers used remote control cars to mimic the technique and *to eliminate the assumed essential role of the humans speaking the language of the horse*.
> 
> "We 'rewarded' the horses for stopping and turning towards the car with a period of 'safety', when the car didn't chase them as long as they kept facing it. We trained some horses to actually walk up to and touch the car," said Henshall.
> 
> ...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> ...I mean, if you were 6 feet away from your horse, but you needed to back him up a bit more, while staying where you were, how would you do that?


Well, in a corral, I've been known to wave the poop scoop above my head while shouting, "_Booga *Booga BOOGA!*_" If they don't have room to turn and run, they back away quickly. Do the same thing if I start swearing - fluently and loudly, as ex-military guys are often good at. :winetime:

Of course, Mia and Bandit would both re-approach about 30 seconds later. Neither one seems convinced I'm truly dangerous.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

bsms said:


> A trainer who was licensed by John Lyons tried to teach Mia to back up using the shaking rope / "making yourself big" thing with Mia. It got to the point she was jumping up and down in front of Mia, waving her arms, huffing and puffing from exertion.
> 
> Mia didn't move. Mia was bewildered. Was the woman hurt? Had she been stung by bees? Had space aliens captured her soul? Mia stared, eyes wide.


You just exactly described my horses when the Parelli woman was doing that. She was trying to make my horse back up but when she lifted up the stick thing (pseudo whip) and was jerking it towards Chivas he actually approached her! He was seriously concerned and I was beginning to get seriously mad. I told her in no uncertain terms not to be waving a whip at his face and definitely don't pop him in the face with it (yes she did):evil:


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I have to disagree. Body language is always useful, in or out of the saddle. * It is about 'raising' and lowering the 'life' in your body.*
> That statement sounds just like the kind of thing Sally Swift would say, I didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now That happens whether you are next to them on the ground, or in the saddle. They are very attuned to body language most , since it is their own method of communication. *Verbal cues can be helpful, but will they really work, totally divorced from supporting body language? * Well it certainly worked for teaching kids how to ride. I would say trot and the horse would.
> I bet you anything, when you say, "T-rot!" for in up transition to trot from a walk, there is some change in your body, that the horse senses. *Additionally, will the horse go from walk to trot, to canter, to halt, ALL on verbal cues alone? literally without any body language , which means use of your body weight, how tall or short you sit, how you breathe or hold your breath, how relaxed or stiff you are, etc.
> * My driving horses all did, they didn't care if I shifted my body or held my breath or stopped breathing. *The finest riders I've ever seen, English or Western, use almost no verbal cues whatsoever.
> ...


I say "back up" and they do...if they need more than that, I can touch them on the chest. I do not GRAB the halter, why would I do that? 

I also tell him to get in his stall and he does...



The point being, no method is sure-fire or fail-safe. Also not only one right way to do things. That imagery stuff might work for some horses and some people, but some of us just want to keep things simple. 

Just like I couldn't learn from Sally Swift with all her talk about birds in the hands and imagine your feet and legs as blocks stacked up...really? Why can't I just imagine I'm sitting on a horse going with the motion? I don't want to hold birds while I am riding. Birds poop all the time! Who wants bird poo in their hands? Yucky!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm not a huge Parelli fan, though there are some things I really like. I like using the 7 Games with my youngsters, it's something they can do and it teaches certain things in a clear, consistent progression. I like Parelli on the ground, not so much when I'm saddled up. I HATED the "carrot stick" with a passion when I first got it. It was heavy, awkward, and just cumbersome to use. I decided I wouldn't let a stick beat me, so I practiced with it until it became an extension of my arm. Now I LOVE the thing and I can go as fast or slow as I want to, but it took some doing. I like his halters, his lead ropes (they last forever), and I've learned to like the carrot stick. 

Backing, or yielding hindquarters, off a wiggling finger is a very advanced application of his training and not something any horse gets right in the beginning. I don't really care how my horses learn to back, just that they do it when I want them to.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> I have to disagree. Body language is always useful, in or out of the saddle. It is about 'raising' and lowering the 'life' in your body. That happens whether you are next to them on the ground, or in the saddle. They are very attuned to body language most , since it is their own method of communication. Verbal cues can be helpful, but will they really work, totally divorced from supporting body language? I bet you anything, when you say, "T-rot!" for in up transition to trot from a walk, there is some change in your body, that the horse senses. Additionally, will the horse go from walk to trot, to canter, to halt, ALL on verbal cues alone? literally without any body language , which means use of your body weight, how tall or short you sit, how you breathe or hold your breath, how relaxed or stiff you are, etc.
> The finest riders I've ever seen, English or Western, use almost no verbal cues whatsoever.
> 
> Oh, and about backing a hrose, I'm curious how you back a horse away from you, if you are not right up next to it where you can grab its' halter and push, or push into its chest. I mean, if you were 6 feet away from your horse, but you needed to back him up a bit more, while staying where you were, how would you do that?


 I'm not saying that body language should be thrown out of the door - its has its uses
In the saddle the body language we use in the form of 'cues/aids is felt by the horse and not seen. The body language we use on the ground is all visual


As Brits we tend to tack up in the stable rather than in an aisle so when I walk into the stable with an armful of saddle I expect the horse to back up to a verbal command, same goes if I'm carrying an armful of hay or two buckets of water
We use some aspects of clicker training so the horse gets a click first (making the noise with your tongue) and then the command. 
Jazzie (who is smarter than the average bear!) will reverse back into her stable if she's noticed the clip isn't on the bolt and decided to wander out when she hears that 'click' and 'back' even when she can't see me.
They're initially trained to back up by using a 'click' quickly followed by the command 'back' and then using light pressure on their head and their chest while telling them to 'back'. Once they know what's expected of them the physical pressure isn't needed any more
Yes, once the verbal cues are established the horse will transition up and down using only verbal cues. On the whole I don't want them to be looking at me - I want them to be looking forwards where they're going
How much you get from verbal cues relies entirely on how much time you want to put into it but I do find that horse that understand the basic whoa, walk on. trot on, canter and back progress a lot faster under saddle and with much less anxiety/confusion than horses that are suddenly thrown into the deep end and have no clue what a riders legs are asking them to do or, worse case scenario, why they're being whipped to make them move forwards and then jabbed in the face when they go forwards too much
This isn't my horse in the video so not posted for critique - just an example of a horse totally focused on whats in front of him and responding to verbal cues






When you work in riding schools that have a lot of group lessons you soon realise that all of the horses understand what you're telling the rider to do, including 'turn/change rein'. We used to use constantly changing codes to try to prevent that anticipation!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Full disclosure: Bandit's reins came from Parelli. They were on sale, at a competitive price, and the quality is excellent. It is the only thing I've bought from Parelli. I may buy another one sometime.

I use a lot of body language while riding, I suppose. Bandit often knows what I want with very little thought from me. I'm sure there are things I do without thinking, and do all the time, that he reads. But since they involve things like a change in my balance on his back, and since he picked them up simply by being ridden by me a lot, I'm not sure how posturing in a round pen would relate.

I have a copy of his first book. It was pretty much pressure/release as a means of punishment/reward, along with a lot of embarrassingly cute sayings. No idea how good his stuff is for starting a colt. 

But I suspect a lot of Parelli people are closer to me in background - bought horses off of Craigslist when I was 50, now need to learn about them. Horses who had been ridden (although maybe Mia hadn't). How can I learn to get along with them? Chris Irwin used to have a bunch of free videos on Statelinetack. Those were very helpful. I paid for lessons in how to work a horse in a round pen. Those lessons were probably helpful in terms of teaching me something about reading a horse, using a controlled environment and having someone with 40 years experience telling me to "_Look at X! That means your horse is thinking Y!_"

But in going beyond the very basics of horse/human interaction, I've learned more from reading peoples' journals on HF and reading their THOUGHT process as they have struggled with various things. I wrote this in Sept 2015:



bsms said:


> I read "Discovering Natural Horsemanship: A Beginner's Odyssey" by Tom Moates yesterday. At about 160 pages, it didn't take long. Well before the halfway mark, I was shouting at the book, *"Get on and RIDE!"* Groundwork, groundwork, groundwork - just ride!
> 
> "*Essentially all respected clinicians agree not only on the fact that groundwork is the key to safely training a horse, but that some combination of these exercises should be done every time you ride. If it is your horse you are about to ride, groundwork tunes up the minds of both horse and rider and reestablishes the relationship you have...Honestly though, groundwork alone is so rewarding its enough to keep me working with horses every day.*"
> 
> ...


I still think that way.Middle-aged beginners need to learn at least 2 things: Some basic understanding of how horses express themselves, and getting very familiar with asking "Why?" If you can figure out the "Why", then the "What should I do" is often obvious.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> Well, in a corral, I've been known to wave the poop scoop above my head while shouting, "_Booga *Booga BOOGA!*_" If they don't have room to turn and run, they back away quickly. Do the same thing if I start swearing - fluently and loudly, as ex-military guys are often good at. :winetime:
> 
> Of course, Mia and Bandit would both re-approach about 30 seconds later. Neither one seems convinced I'm truly dangerous.







that sounds like you are doing the same sort of antics your 'trainer' tried, unscuccussfully. Your horses just find you more believeable than she was.




Of course, a person can chase a horse back/away with noise, antics, or a remote control car, if you happen to have one handy.


the nice thing about teaching a hrose to move off by a 'feel' on a rope is that we have our horse on a line most of the time we are handling them, anyway. To be able to ask the hosre to back, while staying facing us, or, to back a few steps, then come back forward, or back a bit, then turn off to one side, etc. . . . all by putting a feel down the rope, is a handy thing.


the big side to side wiggle should not be necessary more than once or twice, if you are training correctly. The big motion, that is uncomfortable to the horse and DOES often cause them to raise their head , is only used if the small cue doesn't work. And, you could do the training with the assistance of pushing on the chest first. That's a good aid. 



But the big 'shake' is really about getting the horses attention, and firmly encouraging them to make a choice. I use it only when I've asked, and the horse is not responding, or is so dull in their response that they need a bit of a wake up call. I give them a chance to back up from a polite ask, and if they know what that means , but still stand rooted, then a big swing of the rope is warranted. Nonstop shaking of the line is not the right answer, either, because the goal is a very light 'feel', not an incessant wiggle.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If folks see value in getting a horse to back when one wiggles on a rope, fine. I've never felt any need. And I'm far from the only one.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The weather has been crap here and with that comes a lot of power outage. I have decided to go through some books during those times in the evening. 

One I had found that maybe skimmed 20 years ago when it came out.
"True Horsemanship Through Feel" Bill Dorrance, Leslie Desmond. I find a lot of books I read years ago I didn't get much from but re-reading years later after gaining more experience and knowledge I get more out of them and the concepts make better sense and easier to apply. Here I am 20 years later I am skimming through Bill Dorrance's thoughts. 

Bill wasn't in it to market his tack or his videos. I think this book didn't even come out until he was in his late 80's. He honestly wanted to teach people how to get along with horses. And he was the founding father I presume to the NH movement. With that said, admittedly skimming, I found nothing so far about using the horse's language to speak to them.


_"To help the horse learn to understand what you want, you can make use of his nature. He is naturally curious and is apt to investigate things he wasn't seen or been around before. He is also liable to run away from those same things. There's a spot somewhere in between(those tendencies) where an observing person can develop some skill at blending in their plan for how they want a horse to maneuver with the horse's willingness to do these things for a person."_

He talks about getting a feel for the horse and help the horse to get a feel for you. Nothing about talking to a horse in his language but understanding a horse's nature. I am not sure which guru started that idea of talking to horse's in horse language. Is that a Parelli concept?


Bill talks about the the two different kinds of feel in the next chapter which I think applies to the discussion about body language, intention and energy:


_"There are two kinds of feel and it is important to understand the difference in them. *Direct feel* is when you have physical connection between you and the horse and *indirect feel* is when nothing(no physical contact) is between you and the horse._
_With *direct feel*, he learns to feel of you from that physical connection between you. With *indirect feel*, he learns to feel of you and understand what he's supposed to do from the way you maneuver around him._
_This ties right in with how you present what you intend for him to do. Most people miss out on this, because they really haven't got any idea that the way they're feeling and moving around the horse even matters to him. But it's exactly the thing that matters the most to him."_

In the back of the book explaining the term "bringing up the life":

_"Bringing up the life is a feel that comes from your body right through to his body. This could be called one of the basics, because you need to have it built into your foundation real solid._
_ That life in the horse that comes up, why it can occur anytime you are sitting on him or when you work with him on the ground. *It can occur when the horse thought you meant for him to bring up that energy by something you did. *The person might not even realize they did anything to cause the horse to respond the way he did. It could be just some extra little unwanted motion they made, but the horse sure noticed it. So the next time you'd try to notice what you did to cause him to respond the way he did."_

For those who are claiming they don't use body language, you are whether you realize it or not.
And this never became so clear to myself when working cattle, especially sensitive cattle that have a big bubble. The slightest movement or even intention from myself or my horse can cause them to move, good or bad. 

I know some people don't put much stock into what cowboys can offer in knowledge, but I learned some pretty cool stuff about working cattle from good cowboys that can be applied to horses. 

One of things is body language and energy. Not saying I am good at it but it helps become aware when I am not getting the response I am looking for.


One day at work, pregging cows in a set up that can be tricky if not worked correctly I received some good advice. 
The pen going into the leadup was a bit too big and the cows if they weren't handled correctly can quickly beat you as not to get loaded. They can get pretty hot and mad if you make a couple laps and they learn they don't have to go to the chute. Plus it being in the fall they have had enough of seeing a set of corrals so it is important not to sour them. And you certainly want to keep cattle loaded and never want the vet waiting on cattle. 

Anyhow I was shown that it is not the flag(A livestock whip with a Wal-Mart plastic sack to it) itself that causes the cattle to move but the energy and intention behind it, meaning me. I had to put more energy out, get "big" in the saddle which livens your horse and the flag. Made a huge difference between sitting like a lump on a log on my horse and whacking them with the flag as one might have tendency to do after several hundred head. The cattle responded much different.

Same with sorting in an alley. My sorrel horse is so intense on a cow just in his body language I have learned to keep his body along the fence and slightly tip his nose to the outside and to help him do so I make myself "small" and don't make eye contact with the cow to "by" her. And if I need to block or "in" I can get big and let him get big. Or just letting him look at her or take a step with a hip or shoulder to block her or show her the hole. A simple change in position.
Sometimes when things aren't going right I have to think about what position I have my horse in, what position I am in and what I am conveying by those positions. I use examples of working cattle but I think it applies to working horses. 

Just some food for thought on the use of body language and energy.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I am not sure which guru started that idea of talking to horse's in horse language. Is that a Parelli concept?


Maybe Monty Roberts?? I think he coined the idea before Parelli came on the scene.



COWCHICK77 said:


> I know some people don't put much stock into what cowboys can offer in knowledge, but I learned some pretty cool stuff about working cattle from good cowboys that can be applied to horses. One of things is body language and energy.


 Amen. 



COWCHICK77 said:


> Just some food for thought on the use of body language and energy.


All excellent points.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm not a fan of the wiggly rope either. I feel like it confuses them more than anything. *shrug* 

My mare goes off my verbal cues. I say 'back' or 'back up' and it means...well, BACK. I even do it in the saddle, if she needs a little help backing, all I gotta say is 'back' JUST like I do on the ground...and bam, she backs up.

On the ground, I say back and she backs up. She knows it means back up. If that doesn't work, then all I have to do is move my index fingers/point them towards her chest and she backs up. Doesn't really take much. That's how I taught her. I don't need to touch her or wiggle a rope or any of that. She'd just be like what the heck are you doing?????? But whatever floats people's boats! :lol:

Even when I lunge her, all I have to say is 'walk' and she goes right down from a trot to a walk...same with riding, if I say 'woah' she stops dead in her tracks. Yes, I use my seat too, but she sure knows her verbal cues!!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

As far as the wiggly rope to back horses. I haven't feel the need to use it. 

One case I can think of where it might be useful to teach a horse as an alternative to verbal cue or to use with: 

Say if I have a cow/calf roped I stepped off my horse to set my rope I could wiggle a rein or get down to get him to back to tighten the rope back up. But it certainly doesn't mean I am going to run outside and teach my horses. Same as bsms, if someone finds it useful great, if not there are other methods.
I do think maybe using that method it goes back to body language, energy and intent and how much the horse understands you for it work before someone is whacking their horse in the head with a flailing lead rope. I don't know. I have never tried it.



I'll bring up the Bill Dorrance book again. Not because I am like a born again Christian with a new Bible but it seems a lot the NH clinicians reference the Dorrances or Ray Hunt as the basis of their methods.


Once again, Bill doesn't use a wiggly rope to teach a back up in the halter. He puts his hand thumb down where the lead rope connects to the halter(rope) tips the nose over the most forward foot shifting the weight off the most weight bearing foot making it easy for him to pick it up, reach back and set it down. so to back multiple steps you'd keep alternating the direction of nose preparing the horse and making it easy for him to step back. I was taught this for teaching colts to back under saddle riding for a cow horse trainer. I still use it today.



Saying again, I only skimmed this book 20 years ago but reading now I am finding that the NH clinicians are less like the Dorrances than I had previously thought and more like the good cowboys and some show horse trainers I have had the pleasure of riding with.


So where did the wiggly rope come from to teach a horse to back?


(Thanks @*kewpalace* for answering my previous question about using horse language)


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think it's great to have a hrose that back off of "Back!" , verbal command. I use that , too, But I use it in conjunction with, or supported by, body language and or a feel on the rope. If pure verbage works, great! But My guess is that physical cueing came first, in order to teach her to move off of verbal cues. And, you are more than likely using body language cues, even without realizing t. Horses are just so good at reading your body intention, IF they are paying attention. 

So, if they don't pay attention, what do you do? speak louder? step toward them? push on their chest? ?


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I think it's great to have a hrose that back off of "Back!" , verbal command. I use that , too, But I use it in conjunction with, or supported by, body language and or a feel on the rope. If pure verbage works, great! But My guess is that physical cueing came first, in order to teach her to move off of verbal cues. And, you are more than likely using body language cues, even without realizing t. Horses are just so good at reading your body intention, IF they are paying attention.
> 
> So, if they don't pay attention, what do you do? speak louder? step toward them? push on their chest? ?


Most of the time I am not attached to my horse at all. Since the barn is in the pasture, and they are free to come and go as they please, I am working around them. 

I don't know how to explain it, but my horses are always aware of me when I am there, just like they are aware of each other. 

Lets imagine the horses are closed up in their stall for supper, and I walk into the stall to clean up a stray pile of poo while they are eating. 

I don't do anything but walk in and head towards the poo and they naturally take a step to the side to make room for me. I don't tell them to do this in any way, they just move aside for me, even f they have their nose in the feed bucket. 

Same with blanketing. I just hold up the blanket with the neck opening towards them, and they duck their head in the opening (the neck is already buckled) then I pull it over their body. 

Chivas today was just standing at the feed room door looking in, and I told him to back up. He did a few steps. Then I walked the 6 feet or so to the door and told him to go in his stall. So he did. 

I have never lunged Chivas, and I have owned him since Feb 2012. I did let him investigate the pasture loose before I rode him the first time...

I did try to teach him a couple of times, but he got worried so I stopped. I think the last time I tried, back in the fall, he did walk around me in a circle both directions with a lot of encouragement. So then I stopped. 

Thursday he had an exam scheduled with the vet, and once I arrive I realize that I had brought a horse to the vet to check for why he was off on his right fore and the vet will want to lunge him and he doesn't know how! I was a bit embarrassed to admit that to the vet, but the vet tech managed to get him going around well enough for the vet to assess him. So all good! 

So am I using my Life force" to communicate? Heck I don't know. All I know is my horses are willing and like to hang out with me. They do what I ask, normally. 

Here he is standing at the tack room door watching me


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> ...And, you are more than likely using body language cues, even without realizing t. Horses are just so good at reading your body intention, IF they are paying attention.
> 
> So, if they don't pay attention, what do you do? speak louder? step toward them? push on their chest? ?


Horses pick up how to read us just by being around us. We don't need to train them to be aware of us. If we act consistently, they WILL figure it out. Without a round pen. If we are on their back, or not. It just comes with being around the same horse.

If someone is a trainer, they may choose to institutionalize their habits so that someone else can mimic them - wiggling a rope, acting big, feeling the life force connect you to your horse's soul or whatever. But one doesn't need a round pen to teach your horse how to respond to your moods. If anything, it might interfere with the process by its artificiality.

What do I do if my horse isn't paying attention? Depends on the situation. Anything from looking really hard where he is looking, so he knows I've looked hard at whatever has him worried, to asking him to change direction, to a kick with my heels (about twice a year). Backing up is based on context. Horses don't like backing up, but if I ask a horse, I have a reason. I very rarely need to ask a horse to back up while I'm on the ground. We both prefer to turn, space permitting. On his back, if we need to back up because we've reached a place where going forward is a bad idea...well, Bandit usually knows going forward has become a bad idea and he is just waiting for me to agree. Once I do, we back up. And a horse who WANTS to back up can be incredibly graceful, sliding between cactus where inches count.

In a tight spot, though, my horse WILL listen to me. Why? Because over the last 3 years, I've proven to his satisfaction that my ideas work in tight spots. From Bandit's perspective, I'm a senior staff officer who accompanies him into the desert, and who has really good ideas on what to do when there is trouble. Real trust doesn't come in a round pen. *It comes from riding out and proving your ideas work well - gaining trust by being worthy of trust.*


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Lol @jaydee this was one of those Woah moments



> As Brits we tend to tack up in the stable rather than in an aisle so when I walk into the stable with an armful of saddle I expect the horse to back up to a verbal command, same goes if I'm carrying an armful of hay or two buckets of water
> We use some aspects of clicker training so the horse gets a click first


I had never thought about that before...so we do, a click with the tongue is just another form of clicker training, and we all do it.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Lol @jaydee this was one of those Woah moments
> 
> 
> 
> I had never thought about that before...so we do, a click with the tongue is just another form of clicker training, and we all do it.


Yes, I also use a click with the tongue, and again that is a verbal command. 

I now use a verbal half-halt too


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## koda2004 (Sep 2, 2017)

I will admit that I used Parelli for a while, but I stopped using him because the more I used just his methods, the more disrespectful my horses got. I know use a variety of trainers including Warwick Schiller and Clinton Anderson. Please forgive me if I use the term Carrot stick or handy stick, I got used to calling it that and never stopped. Besides it doesn't really matter what you call it.



I disagree with what has been said about backing though. I taught my 3 year old how to back up to 12 feet away from me when I just wiggle my finger and focus my attention on her. I used the "Wiggling rope" method along with tapping her on the chest with my Handy stick/carrot stick in order to teach her to back and then slowly advanced to just wiggling my finger. I must say it is probably the most useful thing I have ever taught her and I use that command on a daily basis. When I'm feeding or she comes into my space all it takes is a little finger wiggle and she backs away respectfully. It is so nice to be able to back her away from me without having to actually touch her! The only verbal command I use when backing is clicking my tongue. I also taught her to back when I pull back on the lead under her jaw so she easily understands the backing cue under saddle. I found that if she invaded my space and I tried to push back on her chest to back her away that she just pushed harder, but the wiggling finger works amazingly well.
She also backs fairly well when I tap my foot on the ground in front of her, which comes in handy when my arms are full.



I have never had my horses confuse hand movement with the backing command... They know when I'm asking them to back because I slightly lean forward, click my tongue, and wiggle my finger. They know exactly what it means and I never have them start backing away from me just because I move my hands around them.


I have another horse that I haven't taught the backing command yet and she is a pain in the butt because of it. If she comes into my space I have to try to push on her chest and she typically responds by pushing back, it is very annoying to not have her back off the wiggle of my finger. I will be working with her on that more soon.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Odd. I've never taught my horses the wiggling rope / back when I wiggle my finger from 12 feet away command...and when I enter the corral to feed them, they head for their food buckets and wait to get fed. Or perhaps stroll over to get some scratches if no food is involved. Don't invade my space. Are not pushy.

"This will profit you. This will profit you not."

Pushy does not profit. Polite does. Polite horses get fed faster.

If someone WANTS to train their horse to back up from 10-20 feet away in response to a wiggling finger, have at it. But it has nothing to do with "respect" or polite horses. It is just a trained response to a cue. Some like it. Some of us have never felt the need.

Truth is I very rarely ask my horses to back. They don't have stalls. They live together in a corral and have room to turn around. 90% of our backing is done when I'm riding and just get to a place where forward progress is no longer practical. Living in a corral, there just isn't anything I do with my horses requiring a long-distance backup cue.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Lol @*jaydee* this was one of those Woah moments
> 
> 
> 
> I had never thought about that before...so we do, a click with the tongue is just another form of clicker training, and we all do it.


 Except the click you use ahead of a verbal cue is a 'listen to me I'm going to ask you to do something' cue rather than I want you to move cue. Its also got the same positive 'feel good' association that you train for when you use a 'clicker'


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

It does not matter HOW the horse was trained previously, anyway....we are going to work it to OUR cues and requirements, not anyone else’s. 

I am fairly certain that I occasionally use the wiggly rope method instinctively....when I am getting multiple mares out of the pasture, I need to keep control of the gate so the others don’t get out. I get the lead rope on one, put her through the gate, get the lead rope on two, get get her through the gate, possibly wiggle the rope to get her to move over out of the gate, put lead on three, out the gate, now everybody back up so I can fasten the gate, then we all walk to the barn. Since it is difficult to affect the horses rearward when I am in front, I may wiggle the rope. 

I say may because this just occurred to me, and I have not analyzed my method......


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## ValerieR (Jun 28, 2018)

This is not me weighing in on my personal opinion of Mr. Parelli, different strokes for different folks, but in reference to a horse who has consumed some volume of that particular koolaid: prepare yourself. This is not my story but rather was told to me by a good friend when I was riding in a clinic he and his wife were putting on. I believe that we were talking about the whole "training versus feel" deal in reference to starting colts and progressing them to the bridle. He told me that a friend of his had brought a mare to his place to spend some saddle time with him. The mare had been at Mr. Parelli's facility, had been with one of the top "level" students for most of her life, and was a basket case. He said she was wound up to the point that if you moved the wrong way around her, she'd bolt off into the sunset or try to kick your head off. He's not one to say that a certain person or type of training is worthless, but he does know Mr. Parelli personally and is very familiar with what he's preaching. So he got to thinking about it and realized that the mare was so wound up because literally everything a person did around her had been trained into being meaningful to her. If you shook a finger around this mare, it had a trained response. Pick your hand up, there's a trained response. Shake your big toe, trained response. The poor thing had gotten to the point where she had been trained to associate so many different human movements with a very specific response that there was no dialog, no context, no meaning and as a result no ability to determine what was a meaningful request from her handler and what was just somebody just talking with his hands when in a conversation with another person and the horse should just sit and wait. She had been way over-sensitized and it did the horse a huge disservice in reference to her ability to function as a useful, happy member of society with humans. I'm not saying that it's the case with all Parelli people, but this horse had a lot of useless BS trained into her with no actual understanding or relevance associated with it and it made her into a complete mess. She made it out ok and turned out to be a really cool mare, but it took a lot of unlearning to get her back to being a functioning life form. This horse of yours very well might be absolutely nothing like this so don't let it scare you off, but go in knowing that there might be some ugliness there. Either way, you'll learn something with this one. Enjoy that. Happy trails!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Except the click you use ahead of a verbal cue is a 'listen to me I'm going to ask you to do something' cue rather than I want you to move cue. Its also got the same positive 'feel good' association that you train for when you use a 'clicker'


My click IS the cue. A click-click (sound made by mouth) means move; they usually can figure out what I want by where we are and what I am doing. 

For instance, if we are both in the stall and I say click-click, they will step away from me. If I continue to click-click they will turn in towards me, and circle around me while head is facing me. I will say whoa when they are where I want them. 

If the horse is cross tied at the grooming/wash rack and I click-click, they will pick up what ever foot I am standing next to. 

So click-click essentially means "move your foot or feet"


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

ValerieR said:


> This is not me weighing in on my personal opinion of Mr. Parelli, different strokes for different folks, but in reference to a horse who has consumed some volume of that particular koolaid: prepare yourself.
> 
> This is not my story but rather was told to me by a good friend when I was riding in a clinic he and his wife were putting on. I believe that we were talking about the whole "training versus feel" deal in reference to starting colts and progressing them to the bridle.
> 
> ...


This is interesting but hard to read without some breaks, so I added some in the quote. 

I will add that my ex-boarder's mare seemed to be getting duller to the cues, and angry when told to do something. Too much stimulation I think, and she was not a sensitive type horse anyway.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

bsms said:


> Horses pick up how to read us just by being around us. We don't need to train them to be aware of us. If we act consistently, they WILL figure it out. Without a round pen. If we are on their back, or not. It just comes with being around the same horse*. *





Yes they do learn to be around us and thank goodness because if they didn't there would be a lot of us S.O.L. and out of the horse business or hobby!
The quoted proves you use body language whether you realize it or not. How you use it and release him from it either conditions a response, desensitizes or numbs him. I use the word numb as it can be unintentional, someone using body language they are unaware of. I think of desensitizing as intentional to a point but can be come numb if over done. It can be as simple as how you approach your horse walking out and catching your horse to teaching him to back from 20 feet away. 

We can train them to be aware of us, it depends on how subtle you want to go and what you are starting with. Some horses don't have the bubble or sensitivity from the beginning but some do and I think that is where people get in trouble, the horse can become frustrated and resentful.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

AnitaAnne said:


> My click IS the cue. A click-click (sound made by mouth) means move; they usually can figure out what I want by where we are and what I am doing.
> 
> For instance, if we are both in the stall and I say click-click, they will step away from me. If I continue to click-click they will turn in towards me, and circle around me while head is facing me. I will say whoa when they are where I want them.
> 
> ...


 That's a new one to me!
I don't use the 'click' so much once the horse understands the verbal cue unless its being a bit 'dopey' and needs a 'poke' to get its attention
If I just clicked when I went into the stable they wouldn't know if I wanted them to go backwards or sideways - for example, if I was going in to fill water buckets I want them to step backwards, if I was going in to remove a pile of poop they were too close to for me to easily reach I want them to step sideways


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

@AnitaAnne I agree with you. When I click, my horse knows to 'move' or, yes, pickup her hoof if I need her to.

I click-clicked to her last night actually, because we were heading out of the arena, and she stood there like 'I don't wanna move'. :lol: Then she came right on out!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)




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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hondo said:


> https://youtu.be/pOZLy1mmGjU


Holes in training...


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> https://youtu.be/pOZLy1mmGjU


It is rather obvious to me that the horse was terrified, not trained...

Quote from the horse: "It was one thing to try to keep that crazy person calm when he was on the ground, but no way am I letting the idiot sit on me. Who knows what kind of stunt he would try on my back? Good riddance to bad rubbish"


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

And on the ground(again), he gave him 2 eyes, no problem....


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> That's a new one to me!
> I don't use the 'click' so much once the horse understands the verbal cue unless its being a bit 'dopey' and needs a 'poke' to get its attention
> If I just clicked when I went into the stable they wouldn't know if I wanted them to go backwards or sideways - for example, if I was going in to fill water buckets I want them to step backwards, if I was going in to remove a pile of poop they were too close to for me to easily reach I want them to step sideways


My horses are all voice trained. If I want them to back it is "shh" 

Walk is click-click (side of mouth sound)

Trot is slightly sharper "tttt-ttt" (front of mouth, hard to put the sound in words!) 

Canter is " smooch" (kissing sound) 

So if I come in the stall and want them to back I say "shh". 

No sounds mean I expect them to stand still


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

greentree said:


> And on the ground(again), he gave him 2 eyes, no problem....


Two eyes, ears alert, whole body balance slightly more on hind end...yeah that horse is ready for anything just in case the lump rises up and approaches again...

I was originally wondering how the heck one mounts a horse that keeps turning to give you "two eyes". That constant turning and facing me would drive me quite batty!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Hondo said:


> https://youtu.be/pOZLy1mmGjU


This is a good example of someone who watched the training videos, mimicked the exercises but doesn't understand what he is supposed to be teaching or understand what the horse was conveying.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> This is a good example of someone who watched the training videos, mimicked the exercises but doesn't understand what he is supposed to be teaching or understand what the horse was conveying.





that horse was so NOT ok with any of the actions taken by the man, before he got on. He was telegraphing "I'm worried" the whole time the man was mounting up. 

He sure rode through some mean bucks before biting the dust, tho!.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

OMG! That guy SO had it coming!!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this might be only peripherally on topic, but that kind of shows you one of the problems with the whole swinging the string around and smacking the ground and all that, and assuming because the hrose is standing still, that he is now desensitized and 'ok' with the string and the activity, and thus will be ok for you to get up onto. 



Horses can learn to hold still, while the commotion of the string and all that goes on around them, but they can also be just 'sucking it in and stuffing it down', and as soon as their feet break loose, All Heck will follow!


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## thedartmoorlover (Jul 23, 2019)

Roley has been backed with parelli (not with all of it though as we don't agree with all of it) the exercises are actually quite good to get horse listening to you and focusing (he loves the clover leaf pattern and gets very excitable) . One of the things which is helpful is that when you waggle the rope or something at him he immediately goes back. It's helpful with spacial awareness as well. Hope this helps.


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