# Update on horses with "behavioral problems"



## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

@mmshiro My husband and I have many discussions on horse reaction to a person's attitude or state of mind. I think some of what you say is not necessarily abuse but the rider/handler being in an unconfident state of mind when handling the horse. This causes the horse to become uneasy or wary. It has been proven that a horse can associate negative behaviour with objects not necessarily associated with the negative or painful experience. 

The horse hurting his tail in the arena could cause him fear of the arena because he now associates that area with the pain he experienced. The percheron may associate bad experiences (whether truly abuse or not) with the owner.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

The problem is that if you approach a poster, or anyone, with the attitude of "it's all you, it's your fault", and just generally being very accusatory towards them, they will not be receptive to any information you provide. You (as in general you, anyone) must find a way to present your thoughts in a manner that is not condescending and does not make them out to be the bad guy. You have to remember that about 95% of horse owners have good intentions, even if their methods are less than favorable. Behavioral problems being owner/handler/rider caused is nothing new. 99.9% of the time, it is user error. It is one of the pinnacles of horsemanship: "It's never the horse's fault". I think most everyone understands that. But again, condescending accusatory posts get you nowhere. It is all about presenting the information in a way that they will be receptive to it.

This brings to mind a thread in which a poster was asking how to put a particular bit correctly on her bridle. It was a severe, harsh bit, one that most users here would never dream of using. Posters questioned why she was using a bit she didn't understand how to put together correctly. She lashed out at everyone, very argumentatively, and got very rude. I must have been in the right frame of mind that night because I was able to get through to her. I tried to help her figure out how to put it on, but in each post kept gently emphasizing the question of why she was using a bit she didn't understand the mechanics of how it worked, etc. I said in my opinion the bit wasn't designed well. By the end she admitted that it was a horrible bit and she could never go through with putting it on her horse to ride (good intentions). After which I told her that she needs to apologize to one of the posters she was extremely rude to. The rude, argumentative parts of that thread got edited out by mods so you won't see it anyway.

Something that was on my mind about your post: I hope you have permission to ride all those horses. I'm sure that is the case. I was just thinking that if I was boarding my horse somewhere and found out someone was riding my horse without my permission, I would be seriously ****ed off.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Many good trainers and riders say that there first reaction when a horse doesn’t do as desired is to ask themselves: “What might I have done wrong? What can I do that might change how the horse responds?”

This is not to say that the horse may not be a fault. It simply recognizes the fact that we are responsible for our own actions and how they may influence the horse. 

Interaction with horses involves communication. Some people are better at this than others. But we can all learn to improve our communication.

Communication involves listening as well as speaking. It involves observation and feel. When we try to influence a horse’s behavior, we should not simply assume that the horse understands what we want. We should observe and feel how the horse responds. We can, then, adjust our actions slightly and observe any difference in the horse’s response. 

You may think of this as doing scientific experiments. You want to succeed without blowing anything up in the process.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

TXhorseman said:


> Many good trainers and riders say that there first reaction when a horse doesn’t do as desired is to ask themselves: “What might I have done wrong? What can I do that might change how the horse responds?”
> 
> This is not to say that the horse may not be a fault. It simply recognizes the fact that we are responsible for our own actions and how they may influence the horse.
> 
> ...


 This deserves a 'love' as 'like' isn't enough


People have disagreed with me on more than one occasion when I've said we should always look for a reason for a horse's inappropriate behavior rather than use force or punishment as the immediate 'go too' 
Looking for a reason isn't about making excuses its about trying to figure out why a horse is behaving in a particular way and then working at fixing it.
That isn't to say that at times you might have to resort to using force if its a safety issue but that a lot of the times when horses are out of line its because they are confused, haven't been trained well enough, have been 'trained' do think that the wrong thing is OK or are afraid of what's being done to them because its a new experience or something bad has happened in the past when they've had it done.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

carshon said:


> @mmshiro
> The horse hurting his tail in the arena could cause him fear of the arena because he now associates that area with the pain he experienced. The percheron may associate bad experiences (whether truly abuse or not) with the owner.


That is not quite the point I was trying to make. The point is that but for a rider/trainer whipping the one horse, and ripping on the other horse's face so he had to escape but "up", neither of these horses would have developed any of these problems. Sometimes the correct response to, "How do I correct my horse to..." is "First up, stop doing what _you_ are doing!"

Whatever behavior these riders thought needed a correction of the severity that caused these horses to flip out does not, and did not, occur when I rode either of them. Lance ultimately went where I told him to go, Scout ultimately slowed when I told him to slow - without melt-down.

Of course Scout now associates the arena with being injured - there is no doubt about it. Just like Gershwin, who was beaten with PVC pipes as a dressage horse and still, after 8 years, can't stay calm when walking across one despite clearing natural looking fences on the trail like they aren't even there. (I know this because I got to take him across those pipes.) But the proximate cause of Scout's anxiety was a correction the horse didn't need by a rider who wanted to show him who the boss is.

That is ultimately my point: Four out of four horses, in my limited experience, with certain "problems", do not exhibit problematic behavior if you use less pressure instead of more. Maybe that's a pattern worth noticing.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> ...but in my mind "being supportive" does not mean that the default position should be to "correct the horse", or to "fix the horse".
> 
> Rant over.


I've been posting on HF for 8 years, and very few posters default to "it's the horse". Most agree with what James Fillis wrote in 1890:

"_In place of first putting the blame on the horse, which is only natural, the rider ought perhaps begin by trying to find out if he himself is not the culprit._"​
When people talk about fixing the horse, they are usually referring to re-training the horse to correct previous bad training. "_Get a bigger whip!_" may be training advice I got 10 years ago, and is far too common around where I live, but it is not very common on HF - thank goodness! Perhaps the most common advice I see on HF is "_Start over. Use a milder bit, or bitless, and start filling in the training holes._"

Another old quote:

"._.. success with horses is to him who applies this maxim of Baucher...'*Let him think that he is our master, then he is our slave.*' There dwells an eternal equestrian truth!_" -- Horse Training Outdoors and High School, Etienne Beudant (1931)


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

To bad I am not more tech savvy. I'd love to put a flow chart up. The thing to realize is that your(g) safety comes first. 2nd is that you do gave to rule the horse in or out. Is it pain, learned reaction or both. Did the horse come to you this way? OR Did the develop this response because of something you are doing? Where (honestly) is the horse in his training and do you have the experience necessary to be paired with the horse? As forum member we don't have access to the "rest of the story" as Paul Harvey used to say. We only get that little slice that is shared. I think we could all benefit from asking more questions before replying with answers. Still not every horse will react positively with every person in every situation. You OP seem to have a knack and are blessed with opportunity to act.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

horseluvr2524 said:


> Something that was on my mind about your post: I hope you have permission to ride all those horses. I'm sure that is the case. I was just thinking that if I was boarding my horse somewhere and found out someone was riding my horse without my permission, I would be seriously ****ed off.


Scout belongs to the barn, and BO *asked* me to ride him after his fall. She now says that *we* are the only ones to ride him, so he won't get ruined.

Lance I was also asked to ride. Owner asked BO to train him, BO delegated because she has an injured knee.

Gershwin belongs to BO. BO risked her life rehabilitating him because he was so fearful. BO assigned him to be as my first trail/lesson horse; he was reasonably safe after 8 years of being in a safe environment.

Then there is Toni, at a different barn, where I asked for some lessons in "polishing" the training of somewhat green horses. BO texts me to ask if I can come out to ride her again, but I have yet to ride her by myself.

Yes, somehow people who have to deal with a horse that can benefit from a gentle rider ask me to ride them. I am leasing a solid horse (Marion) that is my first choice for trail rides. I have BO's explicit permission to take any of *her* horses at any time. That's after she trained and watched me riding for a little under a year. 

Hamlet is my wife's horse. My wife is currently recovering from shaken confidence after a fall that broke her shoulder. She doesn't want anyone else on him. Dita, who also belongs to BO, I take out when she didn't have any ride for a while; blanket permission having been given in advance.

Unless I take out Marion, there is a conversation between BO and me about whom I will ride. I hope that assuages your concerns. I also have a track record of bringing home all horses (a) uninjured and (b) relaxed.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> I've been posting on HF for 8 years, and very few posters default to "it's the horse".


True, but "All posts I ever see here are like this!" wasn't my argument. My argument was regarding a response that advocates for the horse's point of view *if* there is a posting like that. 

I'm mostly addressing the posts that take the point of view that the horse is under some kind of contractual obligation to perform a certain task or train a certain discipline, whereas my point of view is that the horse is under no obligation to show any kind of enthusiasm for anything a rider asks based on the fact that it is payed for, housed, and fed by the owner. Usually it's the "My horse doesn't want to..." posts, and the answer sought is usually, "How can I make him?" rather than "How can I make him *want to*?" - because, you know, it's his "job".


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I am going to get flamed for this, but I have to say that giving the “It’s not the horse, it’s you” line to begginers is irresponsible. Please hear me out.

As soon as I started riding I was drilled with this. Which caused me to believe that it was my fault that I kept getting chucked off, run off with, bitten and kicked when my lesson horse decided to fight another horse and I couldn’t stop it. I must have fallen of at least twice a month for two years. I am not a young kid, I wasn’t coping at all.

I eventually figured out that IT WAS THE HORSES. Yes.

I live in a non-horsey country with very little regard for liability litigation. Coupled with low economic status, it created an environment in which riding schools are irresponsible and put beginners on completely rank horses - because that’s what they have. Even if they come across a good horse, they are quickly persuaded to sell. To keep the students coming back, the instructors would use that line. “It’s not the horse, it’s you”.

So, I’ve only ever seen rank horses and I thought this is what riding looked like and it was my fault. So I persevered. When I couldn’t any more I nearly gave up. Then I got online and slowly figured out (partially through this forum, thanks guys!) that it wasn’t my fault.

To summarize, please be mindful of who is asking the question. In some cases, for all effective purposes IT IS THE HORSE. I tried and tried and there was litteraly nothing I could have done to prevent those accidents because the horses were thoroughly spoiled and I didn’t and still don’t have the capacity for it. It’s not the horse’s fault but, as I said, for all effective purposes it might as well be.

Also, this sort of thing doesn’t only happen in third-world countries. We’ve had some people on this very forum asking a “charged” question. It would come out that they were in the clutches of an irresponsible riding school and I have to say that this forum is very good about figuring it out.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

The source of the majority of problems is with us, as we’re the ones who’re asking them to do things that are not part of their natural environment; so, it’s up to us to watch and listen. 

If we don’t understand or choose to do nothing when a horse is ‘telling’ us that it’s scared, ill, doesn’t understand, in pain or can’t physically do something, then eventually they'll start ‘shouting’.

When it gets to that point, a few riders like a quick, easy fix, even when the problem has been around for ages. The response is to increase the force with time until something works. 

As horses are always going to try to get away from the stress or discomfort, they either get a reputation for being stale and lazy (when they give up) or dangerous and unpredictable (when they fight/ protect themselves). 


I think you're right, the pattern with the four horses is worth noticing as you’re removing the discomfort and they are responding as someone’s finally listening!


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

Horsef said:


> I am going to get flamed for this, but I have to say that giving the “It’s not the horse, it’s you” line to begginers is irresponsible. Please hear me out.
> 
> As soon as I started riding I was drilled with this. Which caused me to believe that it was my fault that I kept getting chucked off, run off with, bitten and kicked when my lesson horse decided to fight another horse and I couldn’t stop it. I must have fallen of at least twice a month for two years. I am not a young kid, I wasn’t coping at all.
> 
> ...


You're not going to get flamed. I agree that it's not your fault, it's the fault of irresponsible instructors and trainers who’d ruined the horses before you got on them. You weren't causing the problems but you were having to deal with them which was unfair.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

what I hear from your opening post is frustration with people who , having more trouble with the horse than you do, blame the horse instead of looking at themselves for the source of the problem. Right?

and, you further say that you wonder if we are doing the right thing to try and be only supportive to folks , on HF. If this really serves them , and the horse, best. right? that some straight talk might be better.

I find quite a lot of 'straight talk' happening here, actually.

But, my reaction to your post, . . my first reaction . . . is hm m m m shall I say irritation to what sounds very arrogant. Then, it's . . . .well. . . jealousy. I know people like you describe yourself; people who just 'have it'. They have that certain 'savoire faire' , they know how to project themselves with that comforting blend of calm and confidence that horses gravitate to. Most of us have to sort of 'fake it 'til we make it', but you seem to have it inborn. 

This happens. I've met quite a number of folks who have 'it'. I feel jealous of them, too, 'cause I wish I had what they have.

But, I don't. And, I'm gonna guess that 90% of folks who work with and ride horses don't. We just have to pretend, and learn, and mimic folks like you.

Here's where it comes in handy for folks like you to be as good a teacher/trainer to human beings as you can be to a horse. That means that you have to treat the humans you encounter with as much patience, calm confidence, humility and love as you would any struggling, hurt, scared horse that came into your sphere.

yes, I think another axiom is , ' you need to try to treat humans with at least as much respect and kindness and forgiveness as you do the horse'

and that, to me, means the humans that come here with 'behavior problem horses', who can't see that they, themselves , are likely the cause of the issue, even it's only because they don't have the level of inborn fearlessness and poise that you do, when it comes to horses.


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## Loner (Dec 21, 2017)

Kindness ,Love and most of all Patience is the answer to a hard to handle Horse not a hard hand.The Horse knows and feels Your inner feelings when Your around them or riding them.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree that you should always look inwards if something isn't going right. 

Horsef it want you, nor could you blame the horses, as said it was bad or non training causing the problems. 

When I had 'problem' horses in I learned to _listen_ to them. A horse that is misbehaving has a reason. It was up to me, as a trainer to find the reason why. 

The horse that would not stand still when being saddled, was it bad manners or was he saying to me that the saddle was uncomfortable? 

I would check for misalignments and if found, rectify. I would look at how the owner had handled that horse and what level their riding was at. 

With experience it doesn't take long to correctly assess where the problem lie and address them in an appropriate manner.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I will agree with Horsef in that there are horses out there that will challenge riders and take great pleasure in it too, there are also horses that are just 'too much' for some riders regardless of training. 
Sometimes the person isn't doing anything wrong and the horse isn't either but the result is still a total fail - that's simply a lack of communication somewhere because no one has explained to the person how that horse likes to be handled. 
When a yard or a private owner has quite a lot of horses to deal with they establish a routine that works well, horses are rather like people with Asperger's, routine is like a security blanket to them. Someone new comes along or the horse is sold and that blanket is ripped away. Some seem to cope and some seem to have a meltdown.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Loner said:


> Kindness ,Love and most of all Patience is the answer to a hard to handle Horse not a hard hand.The Horse knows and feels Your inner feelings when Your around them or riding them.


Theoretically, true. In reality not always possible.

Get an obstreperous colt that thinks rearing and flailing his front legs at you, the last thing I would be thinking is love! 

I do believe they know your inner feelings and with such a case as mentioned he would certainly know my inner feelings were that I was not there to be laughed at, chaffed at or made a fool of.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Foxhunter said:


> The horse that would not stand still when being saddled, was it bad manners or was he saying to me that the saddle was uncomfortable?


Exactly! _Your_ first question is never, "How can I correct the horse that doesn't stand still?" Your thinking is more along the lines of, "How can I make it worth his while to stand still?"

_You_ wouldn't say, "I got this horse for this and that purpose, and by golly, I'm gonna make him!", which is what happened in Lance's case. You also wouldn't ratchet up the pressure to correct a horse that's trying to figure out how to get out of it, which is what happened in both of these cases, to the point of a meltdown.

So when someone asks, "My horse acts up when I do such and such. How can I stop him from doing that?", my default thought, absent other evidence, will be, "Stop doing what made the horse neurotic in the first place." Which is why I put aside Dita's martingale after I started riding her, just to see if I could ride her regardless without head flipping. Yes, she did flip her head when the martingale came off, and yes, _she trained me_ to ride her without causing her head flipping; and no, she doesn't get to do whatever she wants.

It is, indeed, interesting to ask, "Will someone, whose sensibilities are offended by putting the blame for their problems on their shoulders, still listen?" – Who knows. The internet isn't the place to persuade people you argue with, so I usually lay out my opinion (a) to test them, and (b) for third parties reading the thread. 

It takes a special absence of reasoning skills to not at least try an approach that has no downside, namely to chill the $... out around your horse for a few days, just because you don't like the way it was phrased. It's not as though I'll put up the surveillance cameras so I can gloat if it does help, and I certainly don't sit awaiting public accolades from the person to whom I responded.


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## Loner (Dec 21, 2017)

My gelding Moose was all that You mentioned and then some when I first got him.He reared up at me every time I tried to put a lead on him.If I even moved to quick around him he did the same.Even a brush in hand he reared.I got so Mad I would walk away rather then take it out on him.After a few weeks I was ready to sell him.My Wife reminded me that he had had been abused before I got him and to give him more time.I did and I am glad.The more he acted up the more I showed him kindness.I stood by him at feeding time and talked to him until I could finally stroke him with my hand (with out rearing) Then came the brush.Which he loved.I could go on and on but the rest is history.He came around very nice because I gained his trust.I am so glad I did not give up.
He is very well mannered now because He knows I would never hurt him.(like his last owner)


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I get the feeling that there was a certain conversation(s) between you and another party where you became frustrated at their desire to have a definitive answer to a problem. 

Sometimes people just don't or can't "get it". Try not to blame the person, just like you would not blame the horse. 

Some people just need a slower paced instruction, just like some horses do (or dogs or whatever critter) 

Thus my message to you would be; maybe it is not the other person's fault that they do not understand. Look to yourself and see if you can convey the information in a way that allows the person to learn and understand. 

We are all on a journey, some improve, some do not. Not one person IMO is so perfect that they do not need to change anything about themselves. 

Someone mentioned that you show natural gift or ability to read and work with horses successfully, but I do believe you have had a trainer in the beginning that helped you to learn and succeed. 

Some people just need a bit more time. Some people may have a lot of knowledge, but be unable to physically apply that knowledge. 

Have never met a person that was perfect, so I try to give people a chance too. Everyone makes mistakes, and many people want an answer when a definitive answer just doesn't exist. Some people make mistakes. 

Shiitake happens.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> ...I'm mostly addressing the posts that take the point of view that the horse is under some kind of contractual obligation to perform a certain task or train a certain discipline, whereas my point of view is that the horse is under no obligation to show any kind of enthusiasm for anything a rider asks based on the fact that it is payed for, housed, and fed by the owner. Usually it's the "My horse doesn't want to..." posts, and the answer sought is usually, "How can I make him?" rather than "How can I make him *want to*?" - because, you know, it's his "job".


From my journal, 25 Mar 2018:



bsms said:


> ...I've concluded the mark of a good rider isn't how well they control their horse, but how well they motivate him. VS Littauer defined effective riding as moving in fluid balance with the horse. I think I define it by how successful I am at keeping my horse with me mentally and emotionally. When we are one mentally and emotionally, balance is a piece of cake!...


I understand. But there is a difference between someone like me, who likes putzing around with horses, and someone who shows or competes. Frankly, some horses HAVE a job to do. They weren't bought to do whatever they enjoy. 

And here is a trail riding example for you. Bandit views himself as the leader and caretaker of the 3 horse corral. That makes sense. The other two horses obviously look to him for guidance when things go wrong. They may act dominant to him at times, but at the first sign of trouble, they expect BANDIT to make the decisions. So Bandit's attitude is reasonable.

Bandit like trail riding with the others, where he can practice his leadership skills, abetted by some advice from the monkey on his back. But if you take him out alone, he worries about the other two. Without him there, who will make the decisions? Who will handle any coyotes or javelina who approach? Darn it, they NEED him!

He'll ride out alone, but he doesn't enjoy it. At best, he accepts it. And just how can I make him WANT to abandon the herd he lives in 24/7, to go out on rocky trails by himself?

At some point, MOST of us will ask horses to do things that aren't a ton of fun - and expect them to do so. I'm not a Tolkien Elf Lord, able to inspire my horse by the purity of my soul. Sometimes I expect him to become a Nike horse - to suck it up and "Just Do It".

If someone is having a problem with a horse, I think they need to seriously consider Tom Roberts' advice:



> Don't think “Reward and Punishment.”
> 
> Encourage and discourage is a better guide, as it drops the term “punishment.” When riding a young horse we alternate from encourage to discourage very frequently and quite often change from discourage to encourage several times in a matter of seconds.
> 
> ...


I find that a reasonable compromise between hoping a horse will always enjoy what we ask of him, and overloading him with pressure to MAKE him obey. Someone who thinks in terms of "This will profit you. This will profit you not." and "Quietly persist" won't encounter a lot of fierce resistance by the horse. Nor will he be tempted to take short cuts and tie a head down, or carry a whip all the time, or live perpetually in the world of "Ask. Tell. DEMAND!"


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

My trainer and I had a variation of this discussion just today. I was riding the schoolie that I take lessons on and I was having a TIME getting him to do anything, and that is NOT what has been his way with me in the past. So we started looking at what wasn't right. First, I felt off kilter in the saddle. So we changed pads, 2nd pad made the issue worse. Went back to the first one I ever used on him, raised stirrups up 1 hole. Problem fixed. Next, he just didn't want to go. Not just slow or laggard in his response, more "NOPE, MMM MMM, Not gonna, you can't make me.". So we went back to working on a 20 m circle and flexing, half halting and 'filling up' the outside rein. Went great at both walk & trot to the left, to the right.....not so much. So I asked, "What am I doing wrong? What am I doing to cause this?". Her answer, "Don't forget he has a choice in this. He can be his usual wonderful self, or he can be a turd.". We decided today was Turdsday, as a couple other horses seemed to be on the same wavelength. Some days it's the rider and other days, it's the horse and still others it's both.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It helps when you know the horse's history.
When we bought Flo we knew hers as she came for the family who bred her. We knew that they'd hand reared her when her mother abandoned her on day 1 and then treated her like an oversized poodle that got out of control. 
We knew that she was in charge of them and not the other way around. 
We knew that they'd never used any form of physical punishment when she threw a tantrum if she decided she didn't want to do something and instead used treats and coaxing words to try to get round her.
We knew their methods had failed because by the time we arrived on the scene she was dangerous and a hoof away from euthanasia. 
It sounds odd to say it but she wasn't a nasty natured horse she was a 3 year old who didn't know any boundaries.


After a few days of her hissy fits with the ensuing kicking and biting a hit her really hard with a sawn off wooden broom handle She never put a foot wrong again and became one of the most reliable, honest horses I've ever owned.


A mare will soon put its foal in its place if it gets out of line, horses in a herd will do the same. 
There are times when a good smack is worth doing for the sake of the horse and the handler.


Jazzy likes to have her halter put on in a specific way. If you try to put it on in a different way she'll get irritated and try to place herself in the position she needs to be so you can put it on in what she feels is the right way. If you ignore her she'll call you out as a stupid human and make you look a complete fool. If a total beginner was instructed on how to do the job the way she likes it to be done they'd be able to go in and do it really easily - it wouldn't make them suddenly experienced or a 'natural' horse person, it would just make them educated in how to put a halter on jazzy in the way she approves.
Yes she's a diva.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

One 2 yr old filly came to be started. She was exceedingly well bred for flat racing, the downside was that she was a very late foal (end of Jume) so, was never going to be as grown as other flat horses of the same age. 

It took the stud manager four or five days to load her in the horsebox to travel her to us. That was using a loading ramp where the ramp was flat and sides enclosed. 
When she finally arrived she refused to unload. I knew the stud hands were annoyed with her so, I brought my filly, loaded her alongside, had them taken for a short drive and then unloaded mine with the other following. Simple. 

The filly hadn't been named so I called her Twiddle. The trainer told me that no filly in the family line had ever raced, the colts were great but the fillies all went as brood mares. I was to see what I thought but not to press her or get hurt! 

That filly was something else. I would know what sort of mood she was in by her bed each morning. She would dig out the sides into a pile in the middle. If she was standing with her front legs on the pile, she was going to try, back legs, I had to be prepared for lots of questions. 

She was impossible to pick up her feet, even to catch in the stable, she caught on to lungeing easily but after three days was telling me she found it boring. So, I took her out for long walks. She loved that and was probably the boldest horse I have ever come across, wanting to go to new places and investigate things most horses would have baulked at. 

She had a temper, she would throw herself on the ground, make the ugliest of faces and try all sorts of antics. I never _ever_ allowed my heart rate to change and would just stand and let her have her tantrum and then continue as if nothing had happened. 

I had her addicted to a mint sweet, and that is how I got her complicit. I would say to her, "You want a peppy mint?" and her answer was always "Yes please." The only horse I have bribed to accept life as a human wants a horse to be. Very out of my rule book but each horse is different and with one as difficult as her if bribery males life easier for her and me, so be it. 

She took to riding like a duck to water. You never told her something, you asked and asked politely, then she would give her heart.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

A lot of our forum people with questions are new riders and they are often mismatched with green horses. They don't "speak horse" so they don't know that they are annoying the horse.

On the other hand, not every horse is the same. Some horses are totally chill from start to finish. My old mare, Shadow, that we lost at age 30 was chilled out from the day she was born. She didn't mind being ridden. She liked kids. She was a gentle soul from the beginning to the end. She was worth her weight in gold. (She was also a bit on the lazy side.) She was an appaloosa that looked a bit like she had some draft horse in her breeding.

On the other hand, some horses seem to have a rocket tied under them. They want to go too fast. Unless you want them to. Then they don't want to go. They are spooky, worried, etc. They may be very touchy about who rides them, exact saddle, bridle, bit, etc. 

To compare an Egyptian bred Arab or an OTTT to a draft cross and think that they are going to respond exactly the same is naive at best. 

But yes, they all need love and patience. Some just take a LOT more patience than others.

The beginners need to learn a lot whether they be horses or humans.

It may be that the person is doing something wrong.

It may be that the horse is going to take 10 times the work to get up and running than another horse might.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi All!

Celeste, this is spot on.

Everyone wants to talk about horses In General, but that's like talking about humans in general. (Alas, a critical flaw in contemporary psychology IMO; but that's a subject for another thread.) Yea, sure, you can make some generalizations about human behavior, but to flat state that Every Human will do "This" when presented with "That" is just asking for trouble.

Friends, Equines are just as individual as we are, and really need to be acknowledged as individuals.

Of course, nobody, particularly not somebody just starting their journey towards horsemanship, wants to hear this, as it puts a huge burden on the human to learn and adapt to their animals personality. Far easier to take the "cookie cutter" approach, and basically force the animal into your desired "mold", with results as varied as those achieved using a similar approach with humans.

PS: Fox, mine all love peppermints


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I would like to chime in here:

The young lady who is related to me, J.C., has worked with our 2 year old quite a bit. She taught her to lay down (A controlled thing, not a throw down to show her who's in charge type lay down). We've all been introducing her to being led, to having polite ground manners, to not crowd, to not run over us, to not nibble our fingers when we're unlocking the gate chains, to accept a saddle pad, then later a saddle. She's been ridden a few times in nothing but a knotted training halter. She flexes, neck reins, you name it. She's curious, she's never bucked, though she has reared up a few times on us while on the lead... and two of the three times, she lost her footing on uneven ground and fell completely down.

She hasn't reared up again - she learned it's unwise to do that and risk footing over something minor.

J.C. has worked with her the J.C. way - with a little of what she knew of Clinton Anderson's fundamentals, a little of what she knew Oops was geared to handle.

She was tailoring the starting to the filly she was working with by pulling from multiple sources and the knowledge of the filly - she's known Oops since the day she was born and vice-versa. 

Then she went to an Anderson clinic a few weeks ago. She got to work directly with Clinton. She's also highly infatuated with him - so he can do no wrong in her mind.

She has it in her head now that Clinton's more aggressive techniques for troubled horses are what must be used, that she's gone too easy on Oops.

She had Oops confused and emotionally blown up. Oops couldn't figure out what she wanted and for Oops, it was already one of her not wanting to listen days anyway.

An ever-increasing spiral of aggression and chaos followed.

When JC finally gave in and admitted it wasn't working, we had to have a cool down and 'apology' time with Oops. She was mentally and emotionally shut down, blown up. She wasn't learning anything.

We are going to resume this weekend while dodging the rain.

I haven't said much to her since then about how things went, but I'm going to gently explain that maybe for Oops, Clinton's methods she used, those intended for an older horse that's already developed dangerous habits, may not be the best approach. The J.C. Method - her own style - worked so much better for THIS filly. Oops was willing and good as gold for her and everyone else handling her as though you're teaching a 4 year old kid. I know he's her hero, but I want her to learn early that his methods, especially if misapplied, are not a blanket training. It's not going to work for every horse, it's not going to work for ever person that tries it, simply because of inexperience and not understanding what to try and when to try it.

I'm still very much a beginner, and often I may not seem to listen to advice because I don't know how to respond in the moment, especially blunt advice, but I always roll it around in my head. I mull it over, try to see how it fits with the horses we have, how does it fit with ME, can this work? I may tailor that advice a little, slot it in with tons of other advice from tons of sources. It's a huge learning curve, but to try to say Parelli, Anderson, or anyone else in their strictest format always works for every horse, and to think because it worked with Troubled Horse A it will work with Troubled Horse B will get people into trouble, beginner or otherwise.

Horses are individuals and they learn by association, and by the right kind of pressure at the right time, with appropriate and consistent, fair, discipline. 

A lot of new people don't realize this. I didn't. I didn't realize their personalities vary, how far reaching their memory is, how different individuals are from one another... and I didn't realize that 90% of their issues were caused by me or someone else in their past, and that those issues are tough to correct once they're ingrained... but no one wants to hear that. It chaffes to realize it's mostly likely some something-something you're doing as a noob that's caused the problems.

It's much easier, less painful, easier on the ego, to blame the horse.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

One thing that I have found with all the horses that I have worked with is that any horse that is interesting at 14 is quite the handful to deal with at 3.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Loner said:


> Kindness ,Love and most of all Patience is the answer to a hard to handle Horse not a hard hand.The Horse knows and feels Your inner feelings when Your around them or riding them.


Yes and no.
I've seen plenty of problem horses whose main problem is that their owner doesn't want to hurt their feelings or upset them. 

On the other hand, I agree 100% with your last sentence.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Celeste said:


> One thing that I have found with all the horses that I have worked with is that any horse that is interesting at 14 is quite the handful to deal with at 3.


Ain't that the truth!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@AtokaGhosthorse

big like for you post. I think people get to thinking that what they are doing , that is bringing on slow success, isn't good enough. Isn't flashy enough. Isn't like so and so does it. 

Well, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


On the other hand, if what you are doing isn't working, MORE of it isn't likely to work either.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Majority of horses want to please, they will learn quickly, good or bad and generally, providing the trainer has an understanding of their mentality, things go well. 

Then there are horses that, through mishandling or temperament, will offer fight as flight is not possible. What I have found is if a trainer tries to take on the fight then they are going to loose in the long run. Yes, they might well have the horse doing what they want through force, but that animal will be either shut down or wait for revenge. Certainly it will be doing things because they have to rather than want to. 

Horses that want to fight need to learn that fighting is not worth it and many times I have spent hours just playing the waiting game, until they realise that I am not going to fight them but they are not going to avoid doing what I asked.


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