# Educate me: stud chains



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Another thing you can try, other than a chain, is a reinforced lunging cavasson with a top nose ring. You can get some pretty good leverage with that and since the pull is from the top of the nose it is harder to brace against.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

My horse training mentor Buster used to go to Oregon in the early 1970s late 1960s and catch wild mustangs. Every now and then he would get one that does what your talking about. He would tie a long rope (30-50 feet) to the lead rope and solid to a tree. When the horse would rip the lead loose from him and run off, it would hit the end of the rope and literally flip. When it got up, Buster would be standing there holding the rope. The horse thought Buster had flipped it. They NEVER tried it twice. Even the wildest ones would lead with a loose rope after that. 

I only recommend this as a last resort. A foot rope (30 foot lariat) on a hind foot will stop them with minimal pressure if they get the lead rope from you.

Stud chains can be dangerous if used incorrectly. If pulled too tight, a horse WILL rear up. This can cause hard habit to break.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I might try Ap's idea first then. She's already a rearer (little witch....... >.>) and if a stud chain has the potential of creating rearers, it would likely only make her worse

Edit; the only potential problem with a cavesson I can think of is if she flies backwards (which she does sometimes) it wouldn't be much different... but then, not much would


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## Uze (Feb 23, 2013)

I actually had this issue with my mustang yesterday. I'm glad you made this post. She leads/responds wonderful...AFTER she's been worked, because she's tired. But when I needed to walk her to the round pen that time, she was full of energy, and the second I opened the gate she just took off, I didn't even have time to react so I let her take the rope. Wasn't sure what I would do about it, because that is absolutely not a habit I want her to create. I like the idea of using a lunging cavesson. I wonder if anyone else has ideas, maybe that's worked with a horse that does this?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Oh good I'm not alone lol

Mine is just a pushy, bolshy witch of a Thoroughbred who takes GREAT offence at being told what to do...


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## 255954 (Jun 7, 2017)

I would strongly advise against a stud chain. I've used on my QH to get his attention a little so he doesn't give attitude when loading. Usually now all I have to do is keep in my pocket and show it to him when he acts up. However, if you have a difficult horse that wants to run, a stud chain will magnify the injury ten-fold if they run off and catch a leg on the lead. 

Put some hobbles on her.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

RidinDually said:


> I would strongly advise against a stud chain. I've used on my QH to get his attention a little so he doesn't give attitude when loading. Usually now all I have to do is keep in my pocket and show it to him when he acts up. However, if you have a difficult horse that wants to run, a stud chain will magnify the injury ten-fold if they run off and catch a leg on the lead.
> 
> Put some hobbles on her.


They can't catch aleg in the lead, with a stud chain, unless, you use it incorrectly, where it really has no purpose, as in that story of the girl that doubled the long chain and just ran it back to snap where the lead goes, at the bottom of the halter, thus forming a loop. She just used it, as she had no normal lead shank handy, and seeing the chain was long, just attached like a lead shank, ran it back, doubling it She then allowed the horse to graze, thus he got afoot in that loop, panicked broke a jaw and hip, I believe

The whole idea of course, is to handle horses in such away they never learn that a plain lead shank and halter can't control them, but once they do learn they can pull away,you use what works , so they are not successful again

I have no problem using a stud chain run under the chin, as many of my horses learned to respond correctly tot hem, being shown in hand, where they are used, western, to create lightness

Under the chin is the mildest application. You also make sure that the chain is long enough, so that it releases instantly, when the horse gives, and is never in effect, unless you intend to use it-same as correct use of spurs

In either case, it teaches ahrose to be light, so that you hardly ever need to touch them with that spur, nor engage that chain

Of course, there is a learning curve, when ahrose might at first resist strongly, first time that chain engages, so you introduce it BEFORE you ever get in a situation where you might need it for control

Thus, make your own, and don't use one of those show chain shanks, as you can make sure that chain is long enough, and you can braid it into an extra long soft cotton rope, so should your horse at first maybe rear, when he pulls and feels that effect, you can just go with him, giving him slack, until his feet are on the ground again. Once ahorse figures out how to give to it correctly, know if they give correctly, don't pull, that chain in turn will do nothing, they are very accepting, don't care if that chain is run under the chin, and also don't test it, but learn to be light and keep slack in that lead shank.
Watch a showmanship video. Those horses are shown with a stud shank run under the chin, but are relaxed and light, with that chain never engaging-same as ahrose has learned to be light to leg aids, knowing you ride with spurs.
I do use stud shanks, as I feel comfortable doing so, having shown many horses at halter, but if you have never used one correctly, I advise that you have someone show you
If a horse pulls on me, while lunging< i will also use it there, changing hook up with direction, until that horse learns to lunge with slack in that lunge line


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Seems to be some differing opinions here, which of course I expected - ask the same question to 10 different horse people and you get 12 different answers!

I have had some limited success with running a normal lead rope over her nose - she got away from me once with it like that and tried 4 or 5 times - which is why I had the thought to try a stud chain. She does seem to already understand the pressure. I assume because she was a racehorse before I got her she has probably had one on at some point. But... she could do herself some real damage with the chain. Whoever mentioned that is right. I do worry about that. This is the same idiotic horse that's hurt herself 500 times in a safe paddock.

I genuinely don't think anyone else would bother with her but I see a lot of potential and I don't think she's beyond me... I just have to figure out the best equipment to use.

I did think of trying a bit. She's better behaved when I'm leading her by her bridle to the arena. The problem is, if she gets away from me with a bit, she'll break her jaw :/


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I have used stud chains mostly just for showing in halter & showmanship. They are used as Smiley said to refine cues & make them light & responsive much like a spur when riding.:-| I have had to use for Horses that need their manners checked or for Stud & have them listen to you,but if you aren't familiar or confident on how to use then stud chain is not for you:eek_color:. What you might try is wrapping the chain around nose band. You feed it up from bottom & back down wrapping the nose piece with the chain. It just creates a bite to the halter that I have found works well to get attention & discourage pulling you but isn't as harsh as direct application. Video for example


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks everyone  I have a few ideas to try next time I'm at the barn.

The inconsistent handling schedule also really isn't helping, she's usually a bit better when she's being handled/worked all the time, but there's not a lot I can do about it short of moving her somewhere closer to where I live. I like where I have her now, so at this stage moving isn't on the cards, but if she doesn't improve handling wise it might end up being necessary... would rather avoid it though.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I don't like stud chains. They are also unnecessary, if the horse is well trained. But never say never, and this is one situation I would definitely consider it. If she's already learned she IS bigger & uglier than you, can throw her weight around, and is doing it 'willfully', not reacting in fear or such, then this is one of the few instances where I'd be punishing the horse meaningfully(as in, effectively, unpleasantly enough they will think twice before repeating), as well as ensuring the behaviour isn't able to work. 

Trouble with starting 'softly' & escalating gradually, where punishment is concerned, is that if she still has the motivation to do this, she will put up with a little more pain for the gain. So while I'm very sparing & judicious about the use of punishment, if you're going to use it, best make sure it will be at an effective level to 'dissuade' the behaviour in the first place, rather than 'trying a bit more' which ends up like 'nagging' & desensitises them to responding to it! Better, in the words of Pink Floyd, 'A short, sharp shock & he'll never do it again'.

Regardless of whether/what you use for punishment, how strong it might be, the most essential ingredient is that you must find a way to ensure this behaviour *NEVER* works for her again. Otherwise, if motivated enough, she will keep doing it & just resent but run through the punishment. So I'd also have her on a long rope - at least 12', pref longer. That way, you can let it slide if need be, less likely to lose it, and being longer, if you're not directly behind her, you have a lot more leverage too.

Another very important factor is addressing the *cause* of her behaviour. Previous... abrupt handling when she was a racehorse may have a bearing, but what is it that she is objecting so strongly to? Focus your training on changing her *motivation* for getting grumpy, and instead teach her that what you're asking of her is fun, enjoyable, rewarding.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Forgot to say, Elkdog, usually agree with what you say, but speaking of flipping a horse on purpose... and yet you call stud chains dangerous :shock: ... Can't agree with that one I'm afraid. For a horse to run to hit the end of a rope hard enough for it to flip is likely to do it significant injury.



Uze said:


> She leads/responds wonderful...AFTER she's been worked, because she's tired.


While the same thing applies, you need to find a way to ensure this behaviour never works, and you can punish it too if you like, but if your horse always needs to be worked & made tired before she's 'good', I think addressing this 'symptom' is the smallest of your issues - she needs better training & perhaps management changes, so she's *not unhappy* to accept your leadership.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

loosie said:


> Another very important factor is addressing the *cause* of her behaviour. Previous... abrupt handling when she was a racehorse may have a bearing, but what is it that she is objecting so strongly to? Focus your training on changing her *motivation* for getting grumpy, and instead teach her that what you're asking of her is fun, enjoyable, rewarding.


This is the problem. She ONLY does it when she's in season. 

Every single time, the trigger is that I corrected her for something, or asked her to do something she didn't want to. I'm fairly sure it's a simple case of witchy hormonal mare not liking being told what to do. She knows it works, so I need to stop it from working, but my 5'3, 110lb butt is not able to hang onto 16.2 hands of determined thoroughbred with a simple halter.


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## 255954 (Jun 7, 2017)

Smilie said:


> They can't catch aleg in the lead,


I said "on" the lead as in stepping on it. If they break away and gallop off and step on it while the stud chain is on, well I'm sure you can imagine the rest. I run mine over the nose, not under the chin. Neither way is incorrect, just different pressure points. I feel that over the nose gets a quicker reaction with a lighter snap of the chain. YMMV....


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

loosie said:


> So I'd also have her on a long rope - at least 12', pref longer.


I always handle her with a 12' lead, anything shorter bothers me lol. She's gotten away from me on the lunge line though so honestly I don't think a longer lead would help much... :/


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

All this "talk" about stud chains, using or not and how to use them, string the chain....
I'll leave that for others to "discuss" politely...

What I will touch on and to me is just as important...
When you handle that lead shank on any horse please do not coil it in your hand but layer it so your fingers are not caught accidentally inside a coil of rope and injured.
Playing out a length of shank layered is far safer for your hand than a loop tightening around and creating a danger issue of being dragged off your feet, breaking or severing your fingers or hand...it happens far more than many think.

My other thought is....
So you use a stud chain in whatever position you choose to get the horse to the turnout...
Now how are you going to safely remove that chain, keep your fingers intact and the horse not hung up in the shank as explosion of leaving you takes place...
Yes, stud shanks have a darn good place and use for some things...
Don't get me wrong..._I do have and have used stud shanks when appropriate and it was not in a show-ring setting._
I am unsure this is that place though till you first get some basic discipline and respect shown from the horse...
I would far rather see the horse dragging a shank than you needing a ambulance getting you to emergent care for a severely injured hand or a emergent vet call for a horse with severe lacerations of the face...
Chain shanks are great "tools", _but_ truly work the best on a respectful, well-handled and trained horse in trained hands. _That is not your horse currently._
For someone not knowing, reading or understanding the slightest of body language chain shanks can also be dangerous...

_This is *not* a put down as we all had to learn..._
Is there anyone that can work with the horse who is better at handling difficult, disrespectful horses to start the process of re-educating this horse to what is allowed and not?
A riding instructor, a trainer you could bring in for a couple sessions, a trusted barn-worker?
Someone who can work with the horse _and with you_ to teach you how to be the leader, the dominant one with this horse...
Horses have the ability to find our weak spot concerning them and then they capitalize and push their advantage...we all have had it happen, so_ it is not just you.. Honest.._:wink:
:runninghorse2:.....
_jmo..._


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

You can use a stud chain or what I prefer, a Be Nice halter https://www.ayrequestrian.com/us/be-nice-halters. 

When you get to the point of doing what Elkdog has suggested I think whether the horse flips itself and hurts itself has become moot. A horse that is bolting that hard for no good reason has pretty much hit the "Too Stupid to Live" point and that rope trick is the last effort to salvage a horse that's about to go to auction or be put down. Once the horse has learned it can get away from you then it's hard to break that habit and using that trick can work, but what happens if the horse decides to try it again when you don't have that 2nd rope set up? She gets away again and learns, again, that pulling away gets her out of something. 

The Be Nice or stud chain is passive until there's an issue and then they go to work. They can be left on every time you handle the horse so that the horse gets negative reinforcement every time she pulls to try to pull away.

You mention your size vs the size of the horse as a reason why you can't control her. You have to learn other ways than brute force. Most of us mere humans cannot out muscle a full grown horse. You have fix the problem, earn her respect and make her understand that you are in charge, not her. Right now, she's in control and it's not working. I mostly have mares, not one of them would try what your horse is doing to you. They know what would happen if they did and it's just much easier and more pleasant to let me have my way. Even my stallion wouldn't dream of acting like your mare.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

That Be Nice halter is the first thing I've seen that might actually stop her when she flies backwards. I'll have to get my hands on one.

I do think the problem is that she has learned I have no hope of hanging on when she decides she's going to be a witch. The first time she ever got away from me was 100% my fault, but it has since become habit and she will do it now just for the sake of it. But only when she's in season. She doesn't do it to anyone else... only me. Which is why I think it's 100% attitude and nothing else, and why I think I need to get "mean" to get the point across.

Edit; I should clarify she is LOVELY to handle when she's not in season!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

A stud chain is covering up the real issue-- your mare's lack of respect for you. I'd suggest a trainer to help you get the confidence to work and handle this mare, and show you how to safely lead and handle her. If she's this way only when in season, you may want to work with a reproductive vet to find out what's causing her issues-- uterine cyst, hormones, etc. and whether medication or other treatment may make her life easier and yours, too.

As to stud chains, I have no issue with them when used properly, but you can cause more problems than you fix if the horse gets away from you with one.


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## Gloria Rose Armstrong (Jul 18, 2017)

blue eyed pony said:


> So, my mare has learned a nasty little habit that's dangerous for us both.
> 
> When she gets cranky with me (which is every single time I dare to handle her when she's in heat) she WILL break away from me and run off, leaving her lead trailing to get caught in her legs.
> 
> ...


I dealt with a young mare who would rear constantly and was very nasty in heat...I'm a very petite person and I didn't possess the strength needed to handle her properly so I put a stud chain on her, and it actually did the opposite--it taught her NOT to rear. She stopped rearing because she was sensitive to pressure, and whenever she went UP, the chain tightened, and she had to come down for it to release. She was also very smart though, so she figured that out very quickly and she stopped rearing for the most part. She would always still get testy though if she was in heat and you DIDN'T have a stud chain on. I would never put it through the mouth, but if you don't want it to pinch or tighten on her, you can always loop it through her halter like normal but bring the clip down back under her nose and clip it to the metal ring on the actual stud chain, so you have a chain "circle" instead. So it has some re-enforcement and they still feel the chain if you have to use it, but it doesn't pinch or pull or tighten! Good luck!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

blue eyed pony said:


> That Be Nice halter is the first thing I've seen that might actually stop her when she flies backwards. I'll have to get my hands on one.
> 
> I do think the problem is that she has learned I have no hope of hanging on when she decides she's going to be a witch. The first time she ever got away from me was 100% my fault, but it has since become habit and she will do it now just for the sake of it. But only when she's in season. She doesn't do it to anyone else... only me. Which is why I think it's 100% attitude and nothing else, and why I think I need to get "mean" to get the point across.
> 
> Edit; I should clarify she is LOVELY to handle when she's not in season!


The trick to the Be Nice is to put steady pressure on, so when she starts acting like she's going to bolt, you start to put the pressure on her poll and steadily increase it. As soon as she stands, you release your pull and the pressure comes off. It takes a little bit for them to catch on, but it has been the tool of choice for a horse with no manners around here.


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## Uze (Feb 23, 2013)

loosie said:


> Forgot to say, Elkdog, usually agree with what you say, but speaking of flipping a horse on purpose... and yet you call stud chains dangerous :shock: ... Can't agree with that one I'm afraid. For a horse to run to hit the end of a rope hard enough for it to flip is likely to do it significant injury.
> 
> 
> 
> While the same thing applies, you need to find a way to ensure this behaviour never works, and you can punish it too if you like, but if your horse always needs to be worked & made tired before she's 'good', I think addressing this 'symptom' is the smallest of your issues - she needs better training & perhaps management changes, so she's *not unhappy* to accept your leadership.


Well, she's a BLM mustang that's only been here for a few weeks, so she needs a lot of work in a lot of places. She's only just now starting to trust me.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i agree that there are more basic issues, but a mere human is not going to hold a horse that has learned to pull away when he feels like it
Those who think stud shanks are cruel, have no use, don't understand how to use one correctly, and are often the same people who don't understand how to ride with spurs correctly.
Those horses shown in showmanship and at halter, with a stud shank, don't 'need ' one for routine handling anymore then any other horse, who never has one used , nor do I need spurs to trail ride 
A Be Nice halter, works on the nerve line principle, so it is a choice, between a stud shank or that halter, and not necessarily milder by any means, when it comes into effect
The horses we never show at halter, often don't even know what a stud shank is, might spend their whole life with never having one used on them.
However, a horse only pulls away on me once. First time, by surprise, but if it happens again, shame on me.!
Horses are creatures of habit, and they become ingrained, whether for the good or the bad, with repetition and 'reward.
That reward can be totally un intended by the human, as a horse being rewarded by breaking loose, halter pulling, succeeding in pulling away while led, learning their own strength. Once a horse has learned he can indeed break loose by sitting back, get away by pulling that lead rope out of the hand of the handler, you better convince him otherwise, or learn to compromise, live with that vise


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> This is the problem. She ONLY does it when she's in season.
> ...but my 5'3, 110lb butt is not able to hang onto 16.2 hands of determined thoroughbred with a simple halter.


Yeah I get that. So I'd use use a stud chain *over* her nose(note prev info on gradually escalating punishment). But start out in a large yard/roundpen, with a looong rope. Starting in a controlled area, where the rope is longer than the radius of the yard, so she won't get away, and you can keep pressure on her when she does this. So hopefully she will get some practice with this behaviour not working, & being punished, before you're out in the open & CAN lose her. Then when you're out wherever, if you've got that long rope, you get off to one side, particularly if you have a rope halter/chain, or you have a cavesson with a top ring, you 'should'(I know, I know) have enough leverage to turn her.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Under the chin is the mildest application, and also has that chain having zero effect, unless the horse leans into it, thus not giving to pressure. Hooked up correctly, it also releases instantly, when that horse gives
I don't like over the nose, as I don't think it really teaches lightness in leading, and unless wrapped, can pull that halter into the eyes, and if wrapped, always has some pressure/effect
Only time I might use over the nose, is for a confirmed rearer, JMO
Yes, on the long shank, thus my advise to make one, using a long soft cotton rope, and yes to a controlled area, when first introducing a horse to a stud shank.
You also still need to know how to disengage hips, if needed, go with the horse, if he should go up the first time, he feels that chain, when he pulls, giving him slack, versus pulling him over by accident. 
It is not something you attach and then just hope the physical advantage is going to hold that horse,esp when he is not educated to the correct response
Once a horse does learn lightness, very seldom will that chain ever need to engage, as the horse keeps slack in that lead shank
Same as riding ahorse, that becomes very light to leg aids, because he knows you ride with spurs, and also, when he is light to legs alone, you in turn will never go to the spur


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

I've been using a stud chain on my mare for about 3 weeks now. She's 5 and sounds like she has a personality similar to your mare's personality when she's in heat. She started getting sassy and resisting me when she was in heat and I let her get away with some stuff I shouldn't have let her get away with. She learned that she could resist me, so I found a good instructor/trainer. The first thing the trainer did was put a stud chain on her and it was like magic LOL. We didn't have to teach her what a stud chain was, she already knew from her early training. She's a different horse with it on, and believe me she knows when it's not on. We'll be using it consistently for a while.

I did make a very stupid mistake with the stud chain. I'd led her to the trailer, to take her to her lesson, and I wanted to saddle her before leaving home. The trainer only lives 1/2 mile away but I've been trailering her there since I'm not comfortable riding her without professional supervision until she starts behaving herself again. So after I led her to the trailer I took the stud chain off and tied her and she was not standing still for saddling. She was all upset because her buddy in the pasture was freaking out calling to her. Stupid me, I decided to hook the lead rope back up to the stud chain. When she started to act up, I gave the stud chain a pop like I would normally pop the halter. Well that made her mad and scared the crap out of her. She's never pulled back before, but she decided to pull then. The stud chain got tighter on her nose and then she really spazzed out. I froze up like an idiot and forgot to pull the rapid release knot. She kept pulling that chain tighter and tighter around her nose until it finally broke, and then she reared straight up in the air, striking out with her front feet black stallion style. I thought we'd done some serious damage to her nose. She's OK and none the worse for wear but I will never tie a horse using a stud chain again. It's for leading only, and if I ever feel the need to pop it I'm going to remember it's a chain and not a halter and be gentle about it.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Does she act up when you go to correct her for something? Usually if a horse flies backwards, they are attempting to escape from the scary person they are attached to. With a sensitive horse like a thoroughbred, over correcting can be just as dangerous as under correcting.

I would not use a stud chain on my thoroughbred. She's way too sensitive and would pull back to escape the pressure on her halter. Even though we worked extensively on giving to pressure and she does not panic if she steps on the lead- I think a stud chain would make matters worse.

Your horse may be one that panics when heavy pressure is put on the lead, which is why she has learned to bolt.

I'm not against using a chain in certain circumstances but I don't like using one if I can avoid it. It is very easy to trigger a horse to rear by pulling on the chain. The release is very important, steady pressure such as when a horse flies backwards, is almost guaranteed to get that horse to rear and flip. 

Does she lunge? I would put her in a round pen on a lunge line. If she wants to run off she can't get away and you can hold her. I would work on leading, backing up, and lateral flexion off that halter. Work her on the lunge- try making your circle smaller and larger, having her follow the pull on the halter. If she leans, then you have a horse who was not trained to give to pressure.

Then take her out and walk her to the location where she usually acts up. Some treats probably wouldn't hurt anything. When you remove that halter you want to encourage her to stay with you instead of galloping off to see her buddies.

My boss mare is often lead with a stud chain and a whip only while in season, but I mostly use that whip, to get her to back away from other horses, or move her headquarters. She tends to be dead to the halter and wants to drag you to see her boyfriend. A totally different situation, as she is not at all afraid.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

If you do decide to use a stud chain, introduce it to her in the round pen, on the lunge line. You don't want her taking off and stepping on that lead rope, if you can't hold her. 

I heard about a horse who snapped his neck by running off and stepping on the lead. So this is definitely a behavior you need to stop.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

4horses said:


> Does she act up when you go to correct her for something? Usually if a horse flies backwards, they are attempting to escape from the scary person they are attached to. With a sensitive horse like a thoroughbred, over correcting can be just as dangerous as under correcting.


Thoroughbreds have been my breed of choice for a while, and my first had been badly abused, so I'm fairly used to not over correcting.

People far more experienced than me have watched her and said they saw absolutely no fear. More like... calculated witchiness? Which I know horses aren't meant to be capable of but I've had a number that did things horses "can't do" like faking lameness and holding grudges so I don't like to write it off as impossible. The first time she got away from me WAS fear and WAS my fault (I asked too much of her and she panicked) but ever since then it's been calm. Violent, but not fearful.

I do need to get her checked for ovarian cysts... she's due to have her teeth done so when my vet is there with the portable crush for that I'll have him check her. It'd be nice to know if it's just attitude or if she has something actually physically wrong with her that makes her behave so badly.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

newtrailriders said:


> I've been using a stud chain on my mare for about 3 weeks now. She's 5 and sounds like she has a personality similar to your mare's personality when she's in heat. She started getting sassy and resisting me when she was in heat and I let her get away with some stuff I shouldn't have let her get away with. She learned that she could resist me, so I found a good instructor/trainer. The first thing the trainer did was put a stud chain on her and it was like magic LOL. We didn't have to teach her what a stud chain was, she already knew from her early training. She's a different horse with it on, and believe me she knows when it's not on. We'll be using it consistently for a while.
> 
> I did make a very stupid mistake with the stud chain. I'd led her to the trailer, to take her to her lesson, and I wanted to saddle her before leaving home. The trainer only lives 1/2 mile away but I've been trailering her there since I'm not comfortable riding her without professional supervision until she starts behaving herself again. So after I led her to the trailer I took the stud chain off and tied her and she was not standing still for saddling. She was all upset because her buddy in the pasture was freaking out calling to her. Stupid me, I decided to hook the lead rope back up to the stud chain. When she started to act up, I gave the stud chain a pop like I would normally pop the halter. Well that made her mad and scared the crap out of her. She's never pulled back before, but she decided to pull then. The stud chain got tighter on her nose and then she really spazzed out. I froze up like an idiot and forgot to pull the rapid release knot. She kept pulling that chain tighter and tighter around her nose until it finally broke, and then she reared straight up in the air, striking out with her front feet black stallion style. I thought we'd done some serious damage to her nose. She's OK and none the worse for wear but I will never tie a horse using a stud chain again. It's for leading only, and if I ever feel the need to pop it I'm going to remember it's a chain and not a halter and be gentle about it.


NEVER tie a horse with a stud chain!!!!!!!!!



NEVER


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> More like... calculated witchiness? Which I know horses aren't meant to be capable of but I've had a number that did things horses "can't do" like faking lameness and holding grudges


I guess it depends what exactly you mean by those things as to whether I'd say they're 'impossible'. I've had people tell me a horse will never pull back when tied if not in fear. Well... the first time they do it that is likely true, but IME they're not stoopid, do learn:icon_rolleyes: I imagine you just mean by 'calculated witchiness' is that she learned from the result of the first 'fear escape' and now does it calmly & willfully, rather than as a fear reaction. Absolutely possible & what I imagined was going on - I would never recommend punishment - stud chain or otherwise to 'correct' fear reactions.

Likewise horses can *learn* to 'fake' a lameness, if they limp and the rider immediately gets off them, repeatedly. They will associate the limp with stopping being ridden & (assuming they don't like being ridden) will start to try it on to stop 'work'. It is, IME a very rare occurrence for horses to learn this as a 'trick' though. And holding grudges... horses have very good memories, but not good brains for rational thought. So if something Bad happens with one person at some time, specifically if it's not understandable to them, they remember the Bad Feeling & associate it with that person for ever after, unless conflicting Good associations replace that. My no 1 horse, due to one terrible experience over 10 years ago, when he had lots of experience with women & kids but very little with men, still 'holds a grudge' with men, except for the few he's learned to trust. It's not rational, but rather more 'superstitious', strictly behaviourally speaking.



> It'd be nice to know if it's just attitude or if she has something actually physically wrong with her that makes her behave so badly.


Absolutely. But even if not something obvious like cysts, she could benefit from a supplement, particularly with extra Mg to relax her a bit, and if she gets bad cramps or such, will help relieve the severity of them too.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

lIke I have said before, horses don;t make moral judgement, but they do learn by association very quickly. 
That is why it is said we train a horse each and every time we handle or rode them, either for the good or the bad.
The horse just learns by 'reward', whether intended or not
Hense Loosie;s example of a horse who at first pulls back out of true fear. Maybe does so a second time or so, but then he soon makes the association, that if he no longer wished to stand tied, he can set back. t then takes less and less to set him off, or even nothing at all
Same with a horse that learns he can pull away. Through correct handling often, since a foal, a horse is physiologically conditioned to think that a plain halter and lead shank can control him, thus he does not try to pull away. Then, something causes him to test it, and voila, he now knows that he can pull away, if he does not like where he is being lead
Does not matter if the mare is in heat-no excuse
I hand bred stallions, with a chain run under the chin,and with a special colored halter, he only wore when breeding. Rest of the time, i just led wtih a plain halter

Dream, no problem with that Be Nice halter, used by someone that knows how to use it correctly
I just pointed it out, in case the OP thought it was perfectly beneign, and also because these NH geru use some long established principle,in one of their ;special equipment, and re name it.
The Be nice halter works on the nerve line principle


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

She's already on quite a high ration of magnesium as it's a part of her "calming" complete feed! But I've been meaning to try something like chaste tree berries or raspberry leaf (or both of the above) to help with her hormones. 

Apparently she wasn't so bad at the racing stables, BUT the racing stables didn't have two stallions on the property. And who does she run straight towards when she gets away from me? The boys.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

blue eyed pony said:


> Apparently she wasn't so bad at the racing stables, BUT the racing stables didn't have two stallions on the property. And who does she run straight towards when she gets away from me? The boys.


So....where do you get that fact that no stallions were at the track?
Most males are intact at the track till they show they are not worthy of breeding shed status and may run faster when certain parts are removed...

As for why she may not have been so "witchy" at the track... 
Because the track would not be playing with "natural herbs" but with medication called Depo-Provera or Regumate.
Racing stables & their horses don't have time to deal with mood swings that affect performance...neither do training show horse barns. The horse is treated and the issue is resolved.
Once removed from the medication, the horse returns to their mood swings and attitude issues shortly following.
What you are spending for this herb supplement and that herb supplement you could have the vet in to administer a injection then being done with this issue or purchase and faithfully administer every day her Regumate.
The horse would feel a whole lot better too without the seesaw reactions of hormones in her system.
If this is seriously only connected to her cycling, maybe time to take the stress of cycling out of her system and see how she responds.
_Something to seriously consider and look into the possibilities of._
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I didn't say at the track, I said at the stables she came from. I got her directly from her racing trainer so I know quite a bit about the conditions she lived in when she was racing. She was surrounded by geldings, with a few other mares on the property.

No doubt she'd have come across stallions and/or colts when she was racing, and I'm told she did run with a stallion for a while (but nothing came of it) during one of her longer breaks from racing. I assume that's why she knows so well what to do with a stallion and what they're for.

I was told she wasn't depo'd or regumated when the stable I got her off had her.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, hormone suppression is often used to keep mares from mood swings, ect, BUT that has nothing to do with her leading problem, pulling away, as an excuse
Might be the reason she is more likley to do it then, but not an excuse to do so
By the way, mare Magic and raspberry leaves, are basically a magnesium supplement, which calms any horse, male or female, that is mag. DEFICIENT in the first place
I did not lead our stallions, and allow them to pull away, and then say, 'well they were influenced by a mare in heat 
Surely, if you have two stallions on the place, basic things like not allowing any hormonal influence to be an excuse for un accepted behavior, is a given!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_Excuse me for my blunder..._
Racing stables normally have all sexes of horses, including intact and gelded....
Regardless, if she was not so bad at "the racing stable" they did something to keep her in check.
Why don't you just flat out ask "what did you do" since you seem to know them well.
I'm sure they would share their secrets with you to how to handle her mood swings and bad behavior better and safer for you.
If she has escalated from what they dealt with then maybe you indeed have a medical issue that needs a vet exam and some tests to find it.

So I do have to ask...
The racing stable she was at...
_Do they trailer into the track their days racers? :-?_
_No racing stable block of stalls on the track itself?_ :-?
Not many do that as it takes "the edge" off the horse trailering in often times...a horse needs every advantage to be successful on the track.

At this point in time though when she is cycling you _are_ struggling and dealing with a mean-spirited and horse dangerous to your safety.
I would be examining options stronger and more reliable since what you are currently doing doesn't seem to be working well.
Holisitic is great _*if*_ it works...
Holisitic though does not work for all and there is no proof that dosage amounts "suggested" are adequate amounts for every horse.
It can be expensive too...with needing some of this, some of that and something else in combination.
Prescription drugs go through well documented studies and trials...with known expectations and draw-backs to them as applicable.

_You have alluded to what you are doing is not working..._
If it were me, I would be looking for something that does, for the horses sake to give her relief first and foremost. 
I know Regumate works, seen it firsthand turn a rogue mare into a working pleasant animal and when the time was right discontinued, she was bred, carried and delivered a fine colt... 
I know Depo also works and when either drug is administered it stops the hormone swings that create issues for some...
I just see no point in having a rogue mare every time she cycles who is a menace to handle on the ground, is cranky and possibly hurting hence her attitude and probably is not a fun ride at this time either..

_Your horse, your choices._
I don't see you finding "a fix" though because you use a stud chain or use a stronger handling halter...you need to address the real problem of her hormones.
Then you would have a even tempered horse all the time, not a roller-coaster going on daily...with bad outbursts confronting you.
Smilie is also very correct....you have a problem of the horse not respecting you and your handling.
Studs and mares live in the same barns, at the same stables all the time... what is demanded of them, behave at all times is from a foundation of training, of respect given, earned by the handler and nothing less is tolerated.
I worked to many years with breeding stallions and hormonal mares staring each other in the face, living side-by-side, riding together and all handled on a normal shank...it came down to respect given. I was very fair in my demands on them but respecting me always when I was in their presence was never negotiable for my safety and theirs. 
No horse has ever done to me what you have done to often...once and the game was up and over..._respectful behavior is non-negotiable!_

I wish you good luck in finding a suitable solution and be safe while doing so.
I'm out... :wave:
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

There are stable blocks at city tracks but not so much the country ones. She was a worthless racehorse, so primarily raced at country tracks. We are talking about the same industry, but very different locations. There isn't even close to as much money in horses here as there is in the US.

I don't have an issue with using more... veterinary options for controlling her hormones, however I DO agree that it's not JUST a hormonal issue. I know, because I caused it. Just because her hormones when she's in season make her more likely to be a raging witch doesn't mean I can expect the issue to go away completely by just giving her periodic regumate injections.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I misunderstood your posts then....
I thought you said she was sweet, docile and not a problem being handled other times of the month, only when she cycles does she get witchy...
If she is pulling and bolting all the time then you have some serious issues and might need some help from experienced eyes to help you get past this hurdle.
You said she only does this to you,...so maybe someone watching could offer insight and help to catch her bad behavior before she gets away with it again...
I'm still not convinced you using a stud chain will work as you need to be able to release her and she stand still for you to get away safely before she explodes....
Please be really careful while you try new methods of handling her...never turn your back to her either.
:runninghorse2:...


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

No, no, she is lovely to handle when she's not in season, I'm just under no illusions that taking away the excuse will stop the behaviour. Because ultimately it IS my fault. I DID cause it. I freaked her out by asking too much of her when I'd only had her a few weeks, and she panicked and got away from me. That was the first and only time it was fear. Ever since then it's been general witchiness. BUT. I know her. She is highly likely to find another excuse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

blue eyed pony said:


> No, no, she is lovely to handle when she's not in season, I'm just under no illusions that taking away the excuse will stop the behaviour. Because ultimately it IS my fault. I DID cause it. I freaked her out by asking too much of her when I'd only had her a few weeks, and she panicked and got away from me. That was the first and only time it was fear. Ever since then it's been general witchiness. BUT. I know her. She is highly likely to find another excuse.


I'm not suggesting you do this but, if I felt about ANY horse I own the way you do this mare, I would sell her.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If you really don't wish to have her cycles add to the picture, never plan on breeding her,wish to keep her, then have those ovaries removed.
I would not want to handle regumate on a regular basis, gloves or no gloves
In fact, I would manner her while she was in heat, and if she then respects you, she is going to be even better when not in heat
Sounds like she is not a breeding candidate, being a 'worthless race horse, plus poor minded, so why not a permanent solution?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I simply don't have the money a permanent solution would cost, is why not!

I do like her, even though right now it sounds like I don't :lol: :lol: she is a rather difficult horse at times but when she's good she's incredible. And in the end she'll be very well worth it. I'll admit I was hoping she would settle a little bit by now (in 4 months she'll be 2 years ott) but I haven't been able to work with her anywhere near as much as I planned to.

That said I do not intend to get a foal out of her. One of her is enough! But as Smilie said, handling regumate on a regular basis is also not something I'm overly keen on. I'm a woman with a family history of breast cancer so it's a substance I'm wary of handling at all. Could try depo, but I want to sort out the handling issue first


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

blue eyed pony;10141129
Could try depo said:


> "I DID cause it. I freaked her out by asking too much of her when I'd only had her a few weeks, and she panicked and got away from me. That was the first and only time it was fear. Ever since then it's been general witchiness. BUT. I know her. She is highly likely to find another excuse."
> 
> You nailed in the last sentence of the part in quotation marks. SHE will find another excuse. So you over faced her a little bit once. That's fine, she bolted and it's over. That's no longer an excuse, so stop finding excuses for her. Get someone who is a little strict to show you how to sort out the behavior, and I agree with Smilie, do it when she is at her very WITCHY POO worst, then when she's sweet she'll remember just how much of a CTJ she can get when she's nasty. Nasty will soon disappear when you learn how to counter her nasty, sounds like uber intelligent, conniving ways to get out of work and bully you.
> 
> ...


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I have no trouble getting tough with her, I just have to find the right tools. Hence this thread. I've never had to use more than a basic rope halter.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> I did think of trying a bit. She's better behaved when I'm leading her by her bridle to the arena. The problem is, if she gets away from me with a bit, she'll break her jaw :/


If she gets away from you with a stud chain she can rip her face all up and break her nose if she steps on the lead or gets caught on something. Try a knot halter. You can also try a lunge line and lunge the snot out of her if she pulls away from you. Move the feet and show her you are in charge.


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## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

smilie said:


> never tie a horse with a stud chain!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Never


amen to that!!!!!!!


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