# was this horse owner being ridiculous? re:patting horses=slapping a person



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

A lot of horse trainers with really good feel for the horse say that horses do better with a stroke , rather than a pat. It is NOT a crime and I think that if the horse is used to it, i am sure he will know that this is "good boy". But a hard , smacking pat, is probably not as pleasant to a horse. The woman could have said all this without comimg off so bruskly.

NOt a regional thing, btw.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

I have always pet horses like that....and my dog LOVES it, seriously the harder the better and she'll start wagging her tail and playing or lean into you wanting more pats. But that's off topic. 

I don't see a problem with a good pat and I've never seen a horse upset by a nice pat on the shoulder or neck. Maybe im crazy tho...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drafteventer (Jul 6, 2009)

I dont think it's patting horses=slapping a person, to me it is more like
patting horses=patting a person on the back. Like saying 'good job'.


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## RockandRide (Jan 23, 2011)

I have never heard of that....

I always thought of patting a horse like saying good job and thank you. Some poepl beleive that stroking a horse would be better though. It's a personal preferance maybe? 

There is nothing saying patting a horse is bad.


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## whiskeynoo (Mar 17, 2010)

I've heard that before, but don't really believe it. Although i have delt with horses that if you just ever so slightly patted their neck they'd get a fright and panic a little. However i put that down to the fact that those horses weren't handled at all until they were the age of 5. 
My horse doesn't seem to mind it, i mean it's not like i'm full on slapping her with all the force i have, and as others have mentioned it's kinda like a pat on the back kinda thing.


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## Valentina (Jul 27, 2009)

dirtymartini said:


> I...I used to squirt down my horses with cool water to cool them off in the hot summer, until I read on this forum that is a mistake, because the water ends up heating up on them and feeling like a warm soggy blanket. That made sense to me, and I feel like "Duh...can't believe I used to do that!" It's fine if you scrape the water off after hosing them off - it colls them down faster - as long as they're not too hot (breathing VERY heavily) before you hose them down.
> 
> ... On his neck, kind of "pat pat pat." Not hard, but yeah, you could hear my hand make contact. I have done this all my life, especially from the saddle at the end of the ride, kind of a like a "good job" pat. ...
> .... I just kind of said, "Oh, hmm, I have never heard that." I told her to have a nice day and left.
> ...


She was totally off base unless the horse was shying away from the contact. Suggest you just stay away from her.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I've always, from the time I was a kid first being around horses, instinctively felt that people should quit slapping their necks to say, "Good horse!"

Yet, in the 50's & 60's, I hardly saw anyone NOT doing it (although I wasn't spending time with people who don't slap, like the Dorrance brothers). So, I just kept it to myself & always stroked my own horse.

35 years later, I read in Parelli's book that "horses don't like the neck-slapping".

Whether a dog or a human likes it is irrelevant: what's the horse's preference?

I'm sorry if the woman was brusque with you, but it's good that you didn't argue, imo. Perhaps you'll look back on this issue the same way that you now look back on hosing a hot horse with cool water.


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## SpiritedLittleCopperSpots (Mar 4, 2010)

Okay, I am certainly not an expert, but this is how it was explained to me...

1) A horse's skin is sooo sensitive as to feel the most minute insect alight upon them, imagine what a light pat of our hand might really actually feel like to them then?

2) Yes, horses are all individuals, and what bothers one may not another.
Yes, it is also what they may or may not have become accustomed to in their life.

3) Dogs are a Predator, Horses are Prey. 
They look at things in *completely* different ways as far as how they are "handled" physically, and how their minds look at things. 
You have to remember that horses are a flight animal, and patting is actually looked at by them as a predatory action. Yes, seriously. 

I find my own horses personally prefer a nice affectionate, loving stroke as apposed to being patted.
I see other horses who are completely used to a "good job" pat as well. (I am going to ad, they are USED to it, may not mean they actually LIKE it)

So in the end, I think it really comes down to your own personal preference, and what you and your horse(s) are accustomed to. 
No, it is not a crime, just keep it in the back of your head that some owners will not appreciate you patting on their horse, and others won't give it a second thought....:wink:

Just my two cents.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

No, the vast majority of horses do not like patting, and find it intimidating. I wouldn't quite say it's equivalent to slapping, but it's not much better. Stroking/rubbing is soothing....patting is stressful. Temple Grandin agrees.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Northern said:


> I've always, from the time I was a kid first being around horses, instinctively felt that people should quit slapping their necks to say, "Good horse!"
> 
> Yet, in the 50's & 60's, I hardly saw anyone NOT doing it (although I wasn't spending time with people who don't slap, like the Dorrance brothers). So, I just kept it to myself & always stroked my own horse.
> 
> ...


Good post and you do not see horses patting each other, they nuzzle and nibble the wither area


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## touchofsleep (Mar 9, 2011)

No one knows what it really feels like. That's all personal opinion. And honestly she really shouldn't act like she knows it all when really, she has no idea. I pat my horse while training. I pet him mostly though, only because I like to. If you were patting his nose or something then yeah I could see why she would say that, but a friendly pat on the neck is harmless. I think she probably just lays in bed and thinks about this kind of crap. "Man now that I think about it, I wouldn't want someone smacking me like that!"


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## touchofsleep (Mar 9, 2011)

I don't pat my horse very hard though. Probably less hard than most._ I _like to pet him him mostly and feel his soft fur


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

^^ Yes, but my horses are buddies, and are both full of bite marks from the nibbling/playing. They will stand at eachothers' shoulder, taking turns chomping, when they are not snoozing, lol.
So patting doesn't hurt them, worst case I would think it would be annoying. Of course, we are talking about sane, handled horses who are used to it.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

I agree stroking is preferred. I had a horse would go into attack mode at even the lightest pat (as I told the vet, who forgot, and "Good Girl"-- pat pat--- got him two hooves and a set of teeth almost in his face.:shock

But horses *can learn* to tolerate, and even get to like this sign of approval. I taught my horse it was a good thing (it took a loooong time). For safety, every horse should be taught not to react to it. Patting comes naturally to a lot of us humans.


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## Quariesian (Apr 22, 2011)

When I started learning about natural horsmanship from a friend of mine, he corrected me when I patted his horse, stating what everyone else has been saying: about the horse being extremely sensitive. 

I was told to stroke the horse instead, but I don't know what to believe. Human skin is sensitive too (maybe not AS sensitive as horses) and I guess I find someone patting me to be less pleasant than a stroke.

When someone comes up and pats me on the shoulder, I find it feels more threatening and kind of disheveling than any other form of touch, so maybe that's how a horse sees it. I could be completely wrong of course, as this is just my thoughts on the subject.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

One of my horses enjoys patting. The harder the better. In fact I would go so far as to say he enjoys being slapped on the neck. But then he is a massive, bold, thick skinned carriage horse who loves nothing more than being scrubbed with a metal curry comb. (and I mean scrubbed, it would take the skin off you if you did it to a human. He has the hide of a rhinocerous)

My more hotblooded horses don't enjoy it so much. If their adrenaline is going, for example riding to hounds, across country or jumping a track, they seem to like it as they are fired up and take it as encouragement. During more relaxed rides though they would be very adverse to hard patting, and would probably leap out of their skin. (I have some pretty pathetic horses.) Stroking however means nothing to them, they wouldn't even flick an ear if I stroked them. So they get a rub on the shoulder or neck or I scratch their mane, which they love.

I think the form a reward takes depends on both the situation and the horse, although most will understand that a pat means 'well done'. Remember that horses bite each other out of affection. Their skin is about four times the thickness of ours, and they have a layer of hair, so it is silly to compare them to humans in that respect


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think it's better to rub a horse than pat it. I don't particularly like someone patting me on the back or shoulder but that's irrelevent. A horse has nothing like that in it's relatinships with other horses so I don't think it communicates what it is meant to very effectively. However, I think that most horsemen have much more important things to work on than how to pet thier horse. If you really want to tell your horse "good boy" then release pressure when he does what you ask. Don't nag at him. Don't treat him like a human child. Respect his body while you are on his back (don't wiggle and screw around up there). See things from his point of view and engage YOUR brain before you ask the horse to engage his.


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

Also, re the hot horse and cold water.

Yes, the water forms a layer over the skin, and this layer heats up. Same as with humans.

However, a horse left to cool by himself will need a much longer recovery period than a horse that is cold hosed. The quicker a horse is returned to resting temperature, the quicker he will recover from rigorous excercise, and so less strain is put on his system. 

HOWEVER, you should either use your hand or a sweat scraper to remove as much water as possible, and then hose the horse again, or use a continuous stream of cold water on him until he has returned to his normal temperature, heart rate etc, and then use the sweat scraper to remove the water. This is generally accepted, and is a process used on eventers, polo ponies and racehorses after they have run. These animals are worth £100,000+, so I'm pretty sure their handlers will use whichever method is most beneficial to the horse.


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## Frankiee (Jun 28, 2010)

SpiritedLittleCopperSpots said:


> Okay, I am certainly not an expert, but this is how it was explained to me...
> 
> 1) A horse's skin is sooo sensitive as to feel the most minute insect alight upon them, imagine what a light pat of our hand might really actually feel like to them then?
> 
> ...


 
This make ALOT of sense! Nicly put!


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## Ladybug2001 (Mar 15, 2011)

I've always done the "pat pat pat" thing my whole like as well. You could SMACK a horse and it will hurt you worse then it will hurt them. So I highly disagree that Patting a horse=Smacking a person

For example. I was trying to get my horse in the trailer, she was being stubborn. The vet tech came out and started smacking her rearend making it her choice to get in. Didn't look like it hurt her, just made her uncomfortable. Then came the next time I had to get her in the trailer, I started doing what the vet tech was doing and god that hurts me more then anything! So yeah, patting is a "Good job thing"


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## Levade (Apr 13, 2011)

SpiritedLittleCopperSpots said:


> 1) A horse's skin is sooo sensitive as to feel the most minute insect alight upon them, imagine what a light pat of our hand might really actually feel like to them then?


But remember that a horse will itch himself on a metal gate with such force that he bends it. If a human tried the same they would end up in A+E.

And horses REALLY bite at each other's necks and withers, properly chomp, out of affection and compainionship. My horses try to groom me sometimes, I have the bruises to prove it. (most are too polite, but that darned cart horse, if you scratch his withers or under his elbow he goes straight for your shoulder for a good munch) Have you ever been whipped by a horse's tail when he swats at a fly? Very painful!! And yet the horse does it to himself on purpose, and certainly is not upset by it. In fact horses stand tail to tail so that their faces get brushed free of flies. So definately doesn't cause discomfort, even in the sensitive muzzle and eye areas.

Yes the intensely bred and thin skinned hotbloods like thoroughbreds will probably be overly sensitive, just like a whippet is sensitive compared to a chunky working labrador, and we must respect that. But horses are large, hardy creatures, a pat is not going to kill it, or probably even upset it. If you mollycoddle or baby a horse, he is likely to respond by becoming overly sensitive and flighty, either because this is what is expected of him, or because he does not respect you as leader.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The mare I sold in December disliked being petted. She would look annoyed and move away if able. So I decided to go with rubs instead of pets for all 3 horses I own. However, the other two don't act annoyed, and horses are smart enough to pick up in time on human intentions. 

It would have been nicer of the woman to simply say, "Would you mind not patting him? He sometimes gets annoyed with pats." That would have covered things without putting you on the defensive.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Northern said:


> I
> 
> 35 years later, I read in Parelli's book that "horses don't like the neck-slapping".


and yet parelli advocates smacking a horse in the face repeatedly with a metal clip!! I'm fairly sure that most sane people agree that a horse wont like that at all.

My ponies enjoy a well done pat, lets them know they have done well. Infact pride gets very very annoyed when you try to rub his head, stan sulked if he wasnt constantly told he was a superstar (by way of pats, polos or cuddles).

Horses when playing take chunks out of each others hides with unfortunate monotony, doesnt mean that they dont like playing. Also with grooming each other they use a heck of alot of force. I have used a metal mane comb and alot of pressure to scratch a horses withers and he enjoyed it so much he went weak at the knees.

Yes a horse can feel a fly land but it doesnt meant that they are delicate little flowers.

I dont like flys landing on me and yes i feel them when they walk up my arms, doesnt mean that a pat on the back is distressing!


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

Yep, that lady was right on. Horses prefer strokes rather that pats. Their mothers stroke them and that is what they are used to. You don't see horses going around patting each other. LOL LOL


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

I think this is one of those things where everyone has a different opinion.

Mine is that I think most horses know what a well deserved pat means. My gelding seems to get a little more pep in his step when he's done something and I give him a good "rub-thump" on his shoulder or neck. My filly leans right into them  

I think they are built entirely to durable to be bothered by a pat. They stand a swoosh their tails in each others faces. I have gotten a resounding face slap by a tail a few times and by my standards it wasn't at all pleasant


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## Southern (Apr 24, 2011)

I always give my mare a good pat after I am done working with her. And if I keep my hand there, she'll rub against it. She actually looks forward to me patting her, if I don't she acts like she's in trouble. I think it is all the horse. If the horse is timid and fearful of people, like Mum's gelding, they don't like to be patted (he certainly doesn't!) But if a horse trusts people, and is used to yelling kids, barking dogs, (pretty much the usual barn noises) then a nice little pat on the neck shouldn't scare them.


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## Southern (Apr 24, 2011)

faye said:


> *and yet parelli advocates smacking a horse in the face repeatedly with a metal clip!! I'm fairly sure that most sane people agree that a horse wont like that at all.*
> 
> My ponies enjoy a well done pat, lets them know they have done well. Infact pride gets very very annoyed when you try to rub his head, stan sulked if he wasnt constantly told he was a superstar (by way of pats, polos or cuddles).
> 
> ...


I agree! Parelli just doesn't go well in my books, and horses sustain kicks, cuts, headbutts, and blunt biting teeth from other horses, I am pretty sure they can take a little pat on the shoulder.


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## masatisan (Jan 12, 2009)

Horses don't consciously shoo flies off their skin. Its a nerve reaction, same as a dogs ears twitch being tickled, it's not because their skin is "that" sensitive, if it was, how could they possibly enjoy mutual grooming? 

I'm guessing none of you who said horses don't enjoy pats have heard of "strapping" I have done it to Caleb several times but I stopped doing it. I think I'll start again as he never seemed to have an issue with it and he could use it's benefits.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I strap all of mine every day.

Stan used to turn into goo when he was strapped.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

CecilliaB said:


> I think this is one of those things where everyone has a different opinion.


Agreed, and add to the mix that different horses prefer different things. My first horse _hated_ having his forehead rubbed; he wasn't nasty about it if someone tried, he'd just walk away if he could and act sulky. Scout thrives on being vigorously rubbed right between his eyes. Every horse is an individual. 

I do give "atta boy" pats, particularly as we wind up the hard work phase of a workout and start cooling down. Scout has never objected to it. Other horses I know prefer a rub or light scratching on the withers instead of a pat - I try to figure out what the specific horse prefers, and go with that. As far as just greeting/bonding in the stall or cross ties, etc., I tend to go for scratching/rubbing under the mane or around the bridle path; that seems to be a popular sweet spot. 

I do disagree that patting horses = slapping people. Within reason, I expect most negative reactions from horses are expressions of a preference not to be patted, or confusion if they aren't used to it. Not pain or fear.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I pat all my horses all the time, especially my customer horses from their neck down their shoulder, on their rump and anywhere else I can reach from the saddle. I use it as a training tool. Patting a horse is a very common thing and I wouldn't want to send a horse home that freaked out when it's owner went to give it a light pat on the neck. Whether they like it or not? That's for them to say, the only horses I have that don't like being patted are Pokey and this brown mare I'm training, but neither of them like being touched at all so.....


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Very interesting topic!

I do not agree that horses are too sensitive to pat. That's been covered pretty thoroughly, and I highly doubt my horse is feeling discomfort from me patting him no harder then I "pat" my fellow human on the shoulder when, as mentioned, they do a LOT rougher and more painful things to each other.

I think I DO fully agree that a pat likely means nothing to a horse - they don't have any sort of communication that involves patting, and while it may not bother him, you're probably not really rewarding him in any way.

I scratch my horses because it's a very well known gesture to them. I used to pat, and sometimes probably still do, but I found they seemed indifferent whereas a good scratch right at the withers or the crook of the shoulder gets the message to them nice and clear!


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

regardless of whether or not horses naturally like it or our opinions, if we expect them to stand still for it then eventually they'll grow to relax while we do it. then they'll grow to enjoy it because they associate it with standing still and relaxing.

it's like smrobs said, a training tool. we can establish it with negative reinforcement and use it as positive reinforcement


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i dont mind patting, but i hate seeing people slapping their horses when they are proud of them. you see this a lot on the xc course. i personally prefer to stroke my horses, they are all fine with being pat though.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I think so many things can be over thought. I believe that PP believes that a horse can feel a fly landing on it, so we should not pat. But we do stronger, harder things to our horses, not in a cruel way always. When we put them in a field and we snap back on the lead rope when they try to canter off, I am sure that is more than a pat. 

A pat is nothing, and it's fine.


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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

I think the pat pat pat/slap slap slap is no good. I dislike it when my farrier does it because I don't hit my horse and every touch means something with my horse.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

My trainer used to pat my horse on the butt all the time because he would get all wide-eyed and HORRIFIED if heaven forbid, someone touched his butt. Now when she tells him Good Boy, he scoots his butt toward her, hoping for pats! 

I don't usually pat him on the neck, just rubs but I pat his butt a lot. He likes it and his touchiness about anything to do with his rear is nearly gone.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I find it ironic that the NH folks believe in desensitizing their horses but are not in favor of patting a horse. My horse would prefer a pat to a tarp dragged over their head.


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

I am with the patting crowd. Personally I don't like petting a horse as much. They never seem to know it or react to it. I've know a lot of horses that don't like petting but seem fine with patting. But they sure love it when I give a good HARD scratch in their itchy spots. Jake flatly ignores if I pet him after a ride but if I give him a couple good (Its not even light for me, its not hard enough to make my hand sting but it makes a good noise) pats on the neck and his body relaxes and he starts licking his lips. I always make sure to pat him when working on something new or after a good course and he sure knows it.

Have you seen how hard some dressage and high level eventers pat their horses? Yet their horses still look to be enjoying their jobs and not at all disturbed by it. 

Yes you get horses that react badly to it, but to me Its just another thing that they should be accustomed to and tolerate. If they don't like it I try my best not to do it. But no horse I work with on a regular basis does not like being pat.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

I recently went to a natural horsemanship clinic and the clinician taught us endo touch (or taping). We would tap in certain areas to release endorphins to relax the horses. During the clinic we used a whip-like thing with a ball on the end of it and I found that it actually worked quite well. 

Now, I can just use my hand and close it in a fist and gently do little taps and I find that it has worked remarkably. I actually just taught Kitty how to ground tie by doing it. There are a few spots that you can do it. One being the strip right behind the shoulder and along the neck. Now, if Kitty is getting tense I just give her a little "pat" and she relaxes.

I don't believe that patting = slapping depending on the hardness of the pat. I personally would find a light pat that releases endorphins much more relaxing then an aggressive stroke.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I pat Nelson all the time. I pat him on the XC course, in the stadium ring and when we are out hacking. I'll give him proud slaps on the neck while saying "GOOD BOY" in a positive voice. He never flinches or pins his ears back, nor shows me any disaproval.

I think it's just fine 

The only time I stroke is when we are doing dressage, and I don't want to compromise my rein. I'll tweak his wither with my pinky finger.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Horsesdontlie said:


> Have you seen how hard some dressage and high level eventers pat their horses? Yet their horses still look to be enjoying their jobs and not at all disturbed by it.



Exactly. I can think of many show jumping rounds I have seen where the rider is thrilled and is probably whacking rather than patting, but the horse is thrilled too, ears forward loving that moment - they often give out a buck too as they are feeling the moment. But if they hit the horse that hard in the stall, I imagine they would get a different response from the horse. 

Our horses are not brain dead, they understand the emotions behind what we are doing, and they probably get that more than we do. Horses emotions often feed off our own, I know when I am stressed my horse is too.


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## dirtymartini (Aug 9, 2010)

Hi! Original Poster here!:lol:

I kept checking this thread throughout the evening and wanted to respond to everyone individually, but I can see that is impossible now! I had no idea this was such a divisive subject. It is very frustrating, because it almost seems like I (or anyone) can post about *ANY* subject relating to horses and you will get the agreements and you will get the disagreements and you will get the "You''re an idiot" comments, too. I am a regular on a cooking message board. I can post a recipe and someone will say, "You said to cook that at ___ degrees in the oven, but that is too high." Someone else will post, "No, she is right, anyone who cooks it under that is risking their family's health." It ends up turning into a "I care more about my kids and husband than you do" thread. Even in cooking, people can get in passionate fights over minor details!

Has anyone seen the Louis CK comedian, and his routine about ponies in Italy? I have tried a bunch of times to find it online and I can't. He goes on to talk about finding a message board about ponies and the arguments on there...well, I will try again to find it and post it because it is hilarious and I thought of this board when I saw it!

Last night, I sat outside and patted all three horses (2 10 year old minis, and a 2 year old paso filly, only halter broke, but very sweet). They showed no sign of distress or even annoyance. If I touch one mini's ears...he shows signs of annoyance. I know what annoyance looks like. Maybe the pats don't feel as good as a rub...or maybe, like Alex said...it feels good in a hyped up kind of way, but not in a relaxing way? Although we were relaxing last night, it was evening, after their dinner, I was just grooming, petting, patting, etc.

Without getting graphic...it is kind of like romance with your significant other. If my husband came up to me and bit me on the neck, I would be mad. But in a passionate moment...it would feel good. Is that TMI?  But you know what I mean...right?:wink:


I know that horses twitch their skin to get rid of bugs...but like others said, they also whip their tails to swat flies, and that hurts as a human! Also, someone mentioned the metal curry comb. I have one of those and the paso just loves it, it has become a reward for her...she just LOVES to be rubbed HARD with that comb. I can feel her whole body relax. So yeah, horses are different than us.

There are tons more thoughts that keep running through my mind about this topic. Pretty much, everything has been covered here so I guess I won't rehash it. I have to admit, Northern, you are right in the fact that I *will* think twice about this when I am around other people's horses. It kind of makes me sad that something that comes naturally to me (patting a horse) is now something I will have to consciously try to NOT do. I hate that feeling of second guessing myself. But I am respectful to others and their beliefs.


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## dirtymartini (Aug 9, 2010)

just wanted to add, I went to the link that was provided about strapping...did everyone see it?
Behind the Bit: Strapping your horse (a grooming technique)

very interesting.


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## jwells84 (Mar 29, 2011)

Arksly said:


> I recently went to a natural horsemanship clinic and the clinician taught us endo touch (or taping). We would tap in certain areas to release endorphins to relax the horses. During the clinic we used a whip-like thing with a ball on the end of it and I found that it actually worked quite well.
> 
> Now, I can just use my hand and close it in a fist and gently do little taps and I find that it has worked remarkably. I actually just taught Kitty how to ground tie by doing it. There are a few spots that you can do it. One being the strip right behind the shoulder and along the neck. Now, if Kitty is getting tense I just give her a little "pat" and she relaxes.
> 
> I don't believe that patting = slapping depending on the hardness of the pat. I personally would find a light pat that releases endorphins much more relaxing then an aggressive stroke.


What was the name of the clinicain you saw? I worked for a guy who used this technique on his horses and i found it pretty amazing, it taught the horse/horses to relax when there is pressure on certain spots! I'd love to get one of those ball and stick things to work on my mare!

ar


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

I don't know about pats... I don't think my horses react much to them. They like face/ear rubs and scratches. They don't mind it though. Mine do love to be sprayed with water though! If I'm out filling their water in the summer, they come up and turn their butts to be hosed down. Sometimes even making groaning sounds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I slap my horse's butts almost every time I go to the field. One can hear the sound. And you know what? My (generally shy) paint turn her butt asking for more and obviously enjoying it. My qh doesn't even move her ear a bit. And yes, I pat them on neck too when I ride, and on shoulder when I'm on ground. And my paint is getting all excited about the pat, because she knows she did something right and I'm happy with her. Heck, they rub on posts and feeder SO hard it's way harder than any slap I give them. IMHO one simply can't compare pat on horse's neck to the pat on human's neck... :?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I can not see patting a horse as a bad thing. If that is the case, then anything we touch them with is bad.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I've noticed it varies from horse to horse and the particular moment.

Two of my old Walkers LOVED getting "patted" and one of them didn't like it at all unless he was hyped up from having won a "race."

Soda likes it, but not too hard.

Lily hates it, she'll flinch no matter how softly you do it. She has extremely sensitive skin and is a bit skittish about being touched/groomed. 

All of my friend's horses enjoy it, except her old gelding who passed. My other friend's tempermental Morgan mare dislikes it, but her placid Morgan gelding loved it. 

So it probably depends on the individual horse and the particular circumstances.... As usual when dealing with animals and people. :roll:


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> Have you seen how hard some dressage and high level eventers pat their horses? Yet their horses still look to be enjoying their jobs and not at all disturbed by it.


Exactly! I actually enjoy seeing these riders and their mounts sharing moments like this. Those horses KNOW they did an excellant job and that pat from their rider is just another assurance for their jobwell done.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

jwells84 said:


> What was the name of the clinicain you saw? I worked for a guy who used this technique on his horses and i found it pretty amazing, it taught the horse/horses to relax when there is pressure on certain spots! I'd love to get one of those ball and stick things to work on my mare!
> 
> ar



It was Paul Dufresne


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I thought the "strapping" video was very interesting because I have never heard of that before. 

I don't think I would do it just for the sake of muscle tone, but I have done something similar when grooming. Sometimes I will take a curry comb (or even a couple of brushes), one in each hand, and really get rhythmic and vigorous with my grooming and the horses really like it. Not really "strapping" or banging on purpose, but really take a curry in each hand and get really in rhythm and kind of vigorous with the curries, stroking/pressing pretty hard. They really seem to like it. 

When trying to reward or calm a nervous horse, I mostly scratch my horses in places I know they like, like the neck, withers or butt. Sometimes I will pat them on the butt in a playful manner though. They don't care. I don't know if they like it, but they tolerate it just fine. Usually after a ride when I'm feeling good. But when trying to reward the horse, I scratch instead of pat. 

My vet has me scratch my horses on the neck when he gives injections. It works as a distraction from getting poked with the needle.

I have never heard about hosing the horse off creating a wet blanket effect. I would think, that if a horse cools itself by sweating, then getting them wet is like sweating on a more massive scale. 

I know if I am hot from working outside, and I take a shower with slightly cooler water, it cools ME off, so I don't know why it wouldn't work for a horse. I wouldn't want to use water that is too cold, just because that would be a shock to them and feel uncomfortable, but if the water isn't super cold, I will continue to think hosing them off will cool them off nicely. Getting in a sprinkler on a hot day, or a pool, cools us off, right?


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## Clevelande (Apr 27, 2011)

I've honestly never even thought about this! Ever since I was young, I would pat my horses. Reading through this the petting and rubbing does seem the better way to go. Why do we say that grooming and brushing is so relaxing for them? It's the gentle rubbing  I'm definitely going to stroke them instead from now on  Thanks for all the information!


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## dirtymartini (Aug 9, 2010)

trailhorse rider-Well, we don't have fur all over our bodies (well, actually, I know a few middle aged men who...oh nevermind! LOL) so there is a difference between us in a pool and a horse being sopping wet. Also, I think you have to consider hosing off a horse that is going to be standing in the hot sun vs. under a shade tree or in a stall. Like someone posted before, if you scrape them so they are not sopping wet, it is ok. There is something about the layers of fur on a horse...the same hair that helps keep them warm in winter and traps body warmth...well, it is trapping it on a warm day when they hair is soaked with water, too.

I am sure there is a better way to explain it....and like I said, I am not saying I will never hose off a horse on a hot day, or when a horse has been worked hard...BUT I won't leave them soaking wet and I will make sure shade is available. It is already sooooo hot here in SoFla...it is humid and disgusting! I feel bad for my horses, but they have shade trees in their paddocks, fans in their stalls (and stalls are opened so they can go in and out of paddocks/stalls at will) I see a LOT of horses just turned out with no covering at all.

Anyway, just food for thought! This forum has lots of great info, that's for sure! We just have to use our common sense and decide for ourselves what is best for our horses!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> Exactly! I actually enjoy seeing these riders and their mounts sharing moments like this. Those horses KNOW they did an excellant job and that pat from their rider is just another assurance for their jobwell done.


cant they enjoy this moment with a softer pat or a stroke ? some of those people slap their horse with their hand about 2ft away, i wouldnt want someone hitting me like that for a job well done. horses dont understand how one slap is different from another, they dont know our intent because we cant say it to them in words, we have to show it in actions.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

gypsygirl, horses do know. They pick up emotions far better then we ever could so they will know if it is a good boy pat or a reprimand simply because they will pick up on the fact that you are happy or you are ****ed off.


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## New_image (Oct 27, 2007)

Horses read body language and emotion more than anything. They gather the impression that a "pat pat pat" meant to be nice, is indeed nice. Long stroking motions feel nicer in a massage kind of way, but no one has ever killed a horse from a good pat. 

That said my six year old gelding likes his teeth thwaped on ( puts nose in air, parts lips and likes a good "pat pat pat" on his face/teeth ) so you know, to each his own I guess. Hes a goofball.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

*giggles* My mare likes her gums rubbed. She bumps me until I stick my fingers straight up in front of her, and then she grabs the tips of them just with her lip so I can rub her gums above her upper teeth. :lol:

She is indifferent to patting, she likes being scratched and rubbed, and my Arab mare HATES patting, she prefers to be stroked or scratched lightly on her back. They definitely make up their own minds as to what they like or not!

Oh and they both go bananas over a good vigorous head scratch. I grab their big heads in both my arms and use my hands to scrub up and down quite hard, and they get SO into it, rubbing back and leaning into it!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

I know a pony who sticks his toungue out at you and is only happy when you scratch it!


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I had a nice long post to this, but it got lost. Hmph.

Basically, I just said that a horse will know the difference to a hand raised in praise/exuberance and a hand raised in an angry, stressful environment. Whether it feels good physically is a matter of preference to the horse. But does it feel good, physically, when you get a high five or a fist bump or a pat on the back? No, it's the praise and recognition of a job well done that feels good.

Horse likes praise. Pat means praise. Horse likes pats. =]


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

I agree that if a horse is so skiddish that he can't stand a pat then he needs to be pat more. If not for praise then to at least know that there's no need for his reaction. I also think that horses are smart enough to be able to read your emotion when patting and can eventually associate it with good feelings.


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## lovesmyhawse (Mar 18, 2011)

I"m sure petting a horse like that won't necessarily hurt them... horses have thick skin. 
However, I doubt a horse woud really enjoy that, in fact some horses might even spook from something like that. It's better to stroke a horse and and give them little scritchy scratches, similar to how they groom each other. 

And just because your dog enjoys being petted a certain way, does not mean a horse will like being touched that way.
They are different animals!! 
Do you pet your cat, the same way you pet your dog? 
Ever have a pet rabbit?? They like to be petted diferently too.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

faye said:


> gypsygirl, horses do know. They pick up emotions far better then we ever could so they will know if it is a good boy pat or a reprimand simply because they will pick up on the fact that you are happy or you are ****ed off.


Exactly


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i simply dont agree, i think they do pick up on a lot, but when you are galloping and vigoriously slapping your horse, i see no way in which they would interpret your happiness in them. that is like someone saying 'good job' while patting your back really hard.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I personally use a pat as a 'well done, you may leave' sort of signal with Sour, and only pat her whenever I'm turning her loose after working with her. I've taught her not to bolt away as soon as she hears the buckle click on her halter, to advoid me ever getting knocked by her, or stepped on. The pat on her shoulder lets her know that I'm finished, and that if she'd like to- she can leave. I really don't think that patting an animal _hurts_ them, because lets face it- they stand side by side and gnaw on eachother's withers as a form of grooming eachother and saying 'hey, you're my buddy.' I wouldn't personally use a pat as a way of rewarding an animal, but using it for dismissal is no big deal, and I find it useful.

If your horse seems to ejoy being patted though, and doesn't pin its ears/step away/etc, I'd say by all means, keep doing it. Horses have very good perception of intention. He'll know you're being kind when you pat him versus slapping him if he nipped you or something!


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## Moonstruck (Apr 22, 2011)

When I greet a horse I usually rub their face and forelock with my hands and do a scratching/light pinch (as if i'm another horse nibbling) on their withers. They seem to like it  I usually go with the natural way an animal receives affection from eachother. I had rats and I used to click my tongue against my teeth rapidly (which they do to indicate that they are happy) while I would tickle behind their ears. And dogs I usually have a handfull on their ear and squeeze lightly with my hand in a claw-like position. So its kind of like a massage <3


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Gypsygirl, I disagree, Horses are very good at picking up on emotions even when they cant see you. At one stage I had a phobia of white vans when hacking on the road (for very good reason), even when deliberately keeping myself calm and relaxed. Stan would always pick up on it and decide something was going to eat him. If I got nervous before going in the ring (so I would be sitting on him) he got tense (and sometimes exploded spectacularly). If I got excited he did too and he would swing along and strut his stuff.

Horses can and will pick up on non visual cues as well as visual cues.


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## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Ok, so I'm guessing they've been polled to determine they prefer strokes? 

Most horses I've had either enjoy pats (and you can tell they enjoy it)! Or you couldn't tell one way or another, maybe they just tolerate it, that was usually the less personable ones, the ones that 'just tolerated' everything people do to them, including petting or stoking them. 

I can only remember one horse that didn't like pats, at first anyway, but in his case he was treated pretty badly by a previous owner and just putting your hand on his neck caused his whole body to tense. After working w/ him he became one of those that loved it! Just from me at first, but eventually from other people to.

Pats can be soothing to a horse that enjoys them. The gelding I'm riding right now is still green (even though he's 10 years old), and not overly trusting of me just yet, and yet patting him when he's nervous helps to calm him. Did it just earlier today when he was worried about a metal feeder I was moving. If it's something simple a quick pat may be enough to tell him it's ok, if he needs alittle more I may alternate between rubs and pats.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

there are so many other factors in this that there isn't much point arguing about it. is the horse happy anyway? what do you do after you both pat and/or stroke? do you always do it in the same place, both on the horse and in relation to other horses/familiar environments? how consistent are you with it? is the horse overall respectful of humans? what was the horses mood like before the pat/stroke? at what point during sessions do you do it? do you know when to stop the patting/stroking so the horse gets maximum enjoyment out of it?

using those and probably countless more "psychologies" (i'll call them) we can get a horse to enjoy either patting stroking scratching or anything really. 

saying that horses naturally enjoy one more than the other is pretty ridiculous because both are entirely situational.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

A pat is flippant.
A stroke is tentative
A caress is intimate

Touch must always be by invitation - be it by horse or human.


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## stephnello (Mar 31, 2011)

> Originally Posted by *SpiritedLittleCopperSpots*
> _Okay, I am certainly not an expert, but this is how it was explained to me...
> 
> 1) A horse's skin is sooo sensitive as to feel the most minute insect alight upon them, imagine what a light pat of our hand might really actually feel like to them then?
> ...



I agree with that.

And for me the question is not "can they bear a pat on the neck" but "do they appreciate it", because IMO a pat is meant to be a way to say "good boy/girl, good job, well done", and bring comfort and joy and pleasure... My horse won't, usually, react violently to taps and pats, but all his body will get tense, his eyes go wide open and his head rises, and he just seems to be thinking "OMG pray don't kill me pray just leave me alone"... For him it's a kind of aggression or even a punishment! 

And I do love to feel his skin and fur under my fingers and hands, but for that the best way to spend a great moment TOGETHER IMO is to suggest a long massage, and then if he wants he leans onto my hands to ask for more pression of my hands, but I never use taps if I want to touch him to spend a good time. Sometimes I do pat him to remind him of what it is and show him that there is nothing to worry about, but I also warn people and ask them not to pat him but to stroke him softly, gently.


I wouldn't criticize someone for doing that on his own horse but with mine, there are my (no, our) own rules to respect, and that's it, if you don't want to act according to our rules, then just get lost! lol


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## stephnello (Mar 31, 2011)

> Touch must always be by invitation - be it by horse or human.
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tra...iculous-re-patting-85200/page8/#ixzz1LHuMeyiR
> ​



Exactly what I think... Great sentence!


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

SpiritedLittleCopperSpots said:


> 1) A horse's skin is sooo sensitive as to feel the most minute insect alight upon them, imagine what a light pat of our hand might really actually feel like to them then?


I can feel that too. So why is it that a pat doesn't hurt us?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Valentina said:


> Suggest you just stay away from her.


In other words - stay away from anyone who has a different opinion?

Really?

I've heard the pat vs stroke argument many, many times. Think about it. How are are they bit or kicked in turnout by their equine buddies? I am sure they FEEL a pat more than the tickle of a stroke.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

This is silly, because horse owners are going to do what they choose with their Equine Companions - no matter how much people discuss this stupid topic.

I'm still going to give Nelson Proud Pats on his neck when we come off a fence or when we are doing our Victory Gallop at Horse Trials. And people are still going to stroke their horses necks as they choose...

So who cares. Seriously.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Barry Godden said:


> Touch must always be by invitation - be it by horse or human.


I very much disagree.

The most needed are typically not invited. You cannot soothe a child or a horse by looking at them.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

I always felt like a stroke or scratch on the neck was better than a pat. Some men do heavy-handed pats when they "reward" a horse, which I thought was silly. In the end, I think the reward the horse understands and appreciates the most is a release. Or a cookie!  I just don't think a horse understands what the pat means. I could see them thinking it was annoying. All horses are different, though.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

I do both. The nervous-nelly horse that I work with definitely knows what it means. I've never thought of it before this, but I think the rubbing is more effective. When I rub his mane while we are working you can see and feel him relax immediately as though he is relieved that I am pleased. I don't notice that he gets more upset if I pat him though, but he doesn't relax with a pat the way he does with a good mane rub. As for a pat=slapping, I have no idea but I've never had a horse shy away from a pat so it can't be THAT bad, right?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

I was privleged the other day. I had noticed that the hairs on the muzzle of my mare had been contaminated by tiny balls of mud - presumably she had been grazing near a muddy pool. 

She stood quietly and patiently whilst I washed each individual hair with soapy water. I peeled off with my finger nails every hard particle of dirt clinging to each individual hair. I was very careful not to pull the hair from the soft muzzle of her face. At the end of the procedure I gently wiped her muzzle with a clean sponge. I even gave her a kiss.

She thanked me with a single lick and in return I gave her a horse biscuit for being so patient. It was an intimate moment between her and me. I had done something which she could not do for herself and she was grateful that I had noticed and more importantly that I could help.

On other occasions when mounted, I will give her the slightest of squeezes through the bit or I will nudge her flanks with the heel of my boot or I might stroke her mane. I might even say in a soft tone: "steady Girl". 
On such occasions, I expect her to listen, to understand and to obey.

A sensitive touch is so important with horses - as the lady wrote previously: 'they can feel the weight of a fly on their neck'.


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## SpiritedLittleCopperSpots (Mar 4, 2010)

Barry Godden said:


> I was privleged the other day. I had noticed that the hairs on the muzzle of my mare had been contaminated by tiny balls of mud - presumably she had been grazing near a muddy pool.
> 
> She stood quietly and patiently whilst I washed each individual hair with soapy water. I peeled off with my finger nails every hard particle of dirt clinging to each individual hair. I was very careful not to pull the hair from the soft muzzle of her face. At the end of the procedure I gently wiped her muzzle with a clean sponge. I even gave her a kiss.
> 
> ...



That was such a sweet moment you shared with your Mare. :hug:
Thank you for sharing it with us, I know it gave me a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside.....
I love those moments!


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Barry Godden said:


> I was privleged the other day. I had noticed that the hairs on the muzzle of my mare had been contaminated by tiny balls of mud - presumably she had been grazing near a muddy pool.
> 
> She stood quietly and patiently whilst I washed each individual hair with soapy water. I peeled off with my finger nails every hard particle of dirt clinging to each individual hair. I was very careful not to pull the hair from the soft muzzle of her face. At the end of the procedure I gently wiped her muzzle with a clean sponge. I even gave her a kiss.
> 
> ...


 Barry you are blessed with a particularly sensitive horse. If I was in the same situation with Phoenny I would grab her by her lips and scrub away at her muzzle with a damp sponge like maniacal washer woman! In return Phoenny would throw her head over my shoulder and clamp me between her jaw and chest and lean on me till my knees buckled. I don't know how I ended up with such a rough, tough horse but thank goodness she is not a delicate flower.

I tend to be a rubber and a scratcher rather than patter. I haven't really thought about it consciously but I realize that I don't pat unfamiliar horses, I always hold out my hand and let them decide what they want to do. I will either go for the forehead rub or the neck rub depending on signals from the horse. However when I am riding Phoenix I pat her on the neck and bum occasionally just because.

I like what Kevin said - of all the things we do to our horses is patting really such an issue?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

I regard the etiquette of first meeting a fresh horse as extremely important.
I will speak to it first from a distance of three feet or more - then when I feel that I can advance and be recognised, I will move closer. 
I shall be watching the horse carefully for its body language as to whether I am welcome or feared. 

I'll usually hold out my hand with a small horse biscuit (if the owner is not looking) as a gesture of introduction. If I don't have the biscuit I shall offer the back of my hand to lick.

I will only stroke the forehead of the horse with the back of my bent index finger if I feel the horse is prepared to let me. If the horse holds back, then so will I to wait for another day.

The horse must have time to record in its brain my voice, my smell, my posture, my mood and finally the look of my face - which is often the only part of me which does not change. I usually always wear the same rarely washed jacket - because it contains the smells which the horse will come to associate with me.

We seek to get the horse to respond to the most subtle of aids from the heels, thighs, seat, hands and voice. We must handle them accordingly.

Very gentle patting I use to 'say': - "Bi-Bi - see you later"
A caress of the finger is: 'Hello- how are you to day?'

I ask, the horse must listen, understand and obey. It won't always understand the words but it should come to understand the touch.

It is all a very subtle exchange between horse and human and if I find that a particular horse doesn't want to communicate with me, then as an amateur rider owner I can choose not to 'play' with that particular horse.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

*A matter of touch*

It is interesting that I have not previously thought in depth of this matter of touch. With second thought I now realize just how important I personally regard it to be.

We humans tend to use language to express ourselves but along with the words goes non verbal communication in the form of tone, pitch, posture, eye-contact, body movement and hand signals. With the English language we can use words which say one thing but by modifying the accompanying non verbal communication the meaning portrayed can be exactly the opposite.

Horses can not speak any language which we humans can understand - so they can't talk to us. Likewise we can't really talk to them with any degree of certainty that they have understood what we have said. But we can reinforce the words we use by body language, facial expression and touch. Likewise we humans can get the gist of what a horse is trying to communicate by watching its ears and its posture.
The horse tries to speak by using its head and neck - muzzle nudging for example is a ardent request - but for what?

Touch, be it by hand, thigh, butt or bit must be extremely important to a horse when the animal is trying to understand what we have 'said' to it. We say 'back up!' - but probably it is the pointing finger to the chest which causes the horse to move.

We know a horse can sense tension in the rider - even through the saddle - so it follows that it must be able to 'understand' our mood be it of exhilaration, boredom, excitement or fear. Of course there are also pheramones - subtle odours expressed by most animals in times of stress or excitement and which horses can detect. Humans can't smell these subtle odours, but we can see beads of sweat on the brow of a frightened human. We can smell bad breath in a human bought on by stress or illness.

If the rider/handler leaves behind the concept that you can always force the horse to respond then you have to work out how to communicate with the creature. 

If finally you come to accept that the horse has a brain, you must try to understand what is motivating it to behave in a particular way. It can't tell you -so you the human have to 'sense' it. It maybe in pain - you the human have to work out why before you can alleviate that pain.

A fly will make the skin of a horse 'ripple' - how sensitive is that?
We must start our attempts at communication at that level - with the faint pressure of a finger tip - or perhaps even a puff of air from the lips. Try breathing up its nose!

Likewise to chastise it - maybe slap it - but gently - you don't have to use force - except for some of us who use force to release their anger. 

But people who shout, wave their arms about, snatch, poke, beat, kick, restrain, hurt, - really have no place in handling horses - 

and certainly not my horse.



This subject is going deep - we started with a pat.


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## stephnello (Mar 31, 2011)

Barry Godden: it's a real pleasure to read you...


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

kiwigirl said:


> Barry you are blessed with a particularly sensitive horse. If I was in the same situation with Phoenny I would grab her by her lips and scrub away at her muzzle with a damp sponge like maniacal washer woman! In return Phoenny would throw her head over my shoulder and clamp me between her jaw and chest and lean on me till my knees buckled. I don't know how I ended up with such a rough, tough horse but thank goodness she is not a delicate flower.


And If it was me I'd have taken a pair of clippers and removed the whiskers alltogether (if the horse had any to start with). Non of my lot would have raised any objection at all. Infact Reeco would have given me kisses afterwards.

Barry
I don't pander to horses. I am boss therefore if I want to enter their personal space then I **** well will and I certainly wont ask permission to do so. Heaven help them though if they enter mine without an invitation. 

I expect my horses to let me touch any part of them that I want to and to do anything. Non of mine will even twitch an ear when I clean thier boy bits, Reeco will even drop his for me.

Horses are not sensitive little creatures who will drop dead if you breathe on them the wrong way. Have you ever seen youngsters playing? Reeco still has a raised welt from 3 months ago when he a a freind were playing in the field. They used to jump all over each other, play fight, squabble (using teeth) about who got to come in first etc For goodness sakes they use Teeth when grooming each other.

Then again what do I know, except the fact that when anyone meets my horse they always comment on what lovely, friendly and extremely well mannered horses they are. That includes Pride my rescue case who I got from a market because used to attack people, he can now be 100% trusted with children


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

If a pat equals abuse, then I am the worst horse person in the world. 
I prefer to release contact followed by a pat and ending with a few small strokes. Now I don't spend 20 minutes giving my horse a rub down, they are dirty creatures :wink:


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## stephnello (Mar 31, 2011)

I think respect must go in both ways... My horse shall never enter my space, and even so I ask him if he's ready to have me in his sphere... My thinking is: I'm not a pro, not even experienced I think. I am small and slim, not muscular, nor very rapid to react, nor instinctive. My horse is not really tall and heavy but all the same he's 10 times as heavy as I, with many more muscles, instincts, reactivity, sensitiveness. He can guess whatever I'm thinking or intending to do or feeling. I can't, and I don't want to, lie with him or cheat with him. 

So my main intentions with him are and have almost always been and will always be to: 
*show him that I'm willing to do everything to protect him in case of danger (he saw it several times when dogs attacked us, if I think they really are dangerous, as my horse is really friendly with dogs or gets afraid, I get down and hunt the dog down until he runs away howling with fear to find his owner... when big draft horses tried to run into my horse while I was here, I always managed to make them run away in the other direction and have my horse safe and sound behind me...)
*Show him that I have good ideas and can invent plenty of funny or comfortable games and activities
*Show that he can trust me and must respect me, and that doesn't mean that I'm rude to him! I want him to respect me and for that I respect him too - but I can afford to "lose" one day, since I've got a horse only for the pleasure, there are no obligations for us to manage something except to be safe together.
In fact I want him to be happy to see me come, and to see me as someone so ready to help that even though I'm small and light and slim, I can handle many dangerous things for him. I think many horses find it comfortable to just follow without worrying about where to drink, how to avoid this monster, what's this bird flying away indicating, they can just relax and let you guide and take on the hard parts. Don't know if this is clear though... and don't know if this is the right way but it is the right way for my horse and me and for a number of horses I've got to handle til today, maybe because most of them had had traumatic experiences so they really needed time and soft approaches...

But once again I'm no trainer, just a horse owner who tries her best to make the horse in question happy...


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

faye said:


> I don't pander to horses. I am boss therefore if I want to enter their personal space then I **** well will and I certainly wont ask permission to do so. Heaven help them though if they enter mine without an invitation.
> 
> I expect my horses to let me touch any part of them that I want to and to do anything.


I agree.



stephnello said:


> I think respect must go in both ways... My horse shall never enter my space, and even so I ask him if he's ready to have me in his sphere...


It is not an equal relationship though.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I agree with AlwaysBehind. Call me crazy, but I do way worse things in simply training my horse - like giving him a bath and spraying him with a hose, which he loves, or putting a saddle on him - than all the patting I do when he's a good baby. I'm also big on desensitizing. He'll be around a lot as a show horse and the more surprises I can take care of at home, the less I have to worry about on the road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

This is stan, he was obvioulsy terribly abused and utterly terrified of me


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Stan looks horribly abused in that photo, for sure.

I sure hope you asked for proper permission prior to entering his stall and petting him while he is napping. :wink:


Oh, I figured out why I do not have to ask permission.
As I tell my horse while we are doing stuff; they are not his ears/hoof/leg/other misc body part, they are mine to do with as I see fit, I just let him use them.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

He wasnt impressed when I moved the hay out from under his nose thats for sure, he had dragged it all out of the haybar and put it infront of himself, was lieing down and stuffing his face, typical Irish pony. Takeing the weight off his sore leg (the one that you can just see has been clipped), at the point that was taken stan had been on complete box rest for 5 month (i.e he had not left that stable at all).


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I do also feel that, regardless of ones personal feelings on pat or not to pat, it is important that it not be an issue for any horse. My feelings are that it is too bad if the horse doesn't like to be patted, it still has to be desensitized enough to it that when some random comes along and gives the horse a pat - and lets face it that does happen because that is how this thread started! The horse must be able to take it a calm and safe manner.

While I understand the sentiment behind your post Barry I think that it is rather naive too. In a perfect world it would wonderful to let all horses be the delicate flowers of perfectitude that I'm sure we all believe they are. But the reality is that we are living in a loud, rowdy world, and horses need to be desensitized to it. We have brought them in under our rules so we need to arm them with the best skills to be happy. These skills involve understanding that 90% of the people that surround them are loud, ignorant, and quick of emotion and to be desensitized enough to not to really give a rats ****.

Lets look at a quick example, you treat your horse with the utmost gentleness and respect, the horse is delicate and sensitive to your every nuance. You ask your horses permission and three years later you are allowed to go for a ride. You get ten metres out of the sanctuary of delight, your horse takes a crap on someones lawn. Said owner of the lawn loses the plot, comes running out at you and your horse, yelling and wildly gesticulating. Your horse who has never been exposed to such acrimony and abuse decides that lawn owner is going to kill her, reacts like an atom bomb, throws you, you incur terrible injuries and your horse, having completely lost her head runs straight into the path of an on coming lorry - fortunately dying quite quickly. 

Teaching a horse to not care about the loud, rowdy and just plain ignorant is absolutely critical. It is a horses tender sensibilities that are the most dangerous. So at the end of the day I will always do some arm flapping, poking, prodding, not moderate my voice, and pat my horse because she lives in my world and she needs to feel safe in it.


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## stephnello (Mar 31, 2011)

I didn't say we were equal... If only for his own life he needs to obey me, I mean when we go out and there are cars and trucks and tractors, we could die if he wasn't ready to obey! And he does. I also desensitized him to pats, he doesn't react to them, just has his "when is this going to end" look, but I have really tried to get him used to all kinds of behaviours and contacts because I know children, mentally deficient or ignorant people will be able to get near to him. Once a mentally deficient boy came and asked to sroke him while we were strolling around a lake. I said "yes" and he gave huge huge taps on the cheek of my horse... he didn't move at all, and even put his nose on the boy's shoulder before he said "goodbye". I think there he felt the boy was "special", and he also knew if he had moved I would have intervened because it doesn't matter what we are doing he has no right to push us or threaten us.

BUT if someone came and always patted him though he doesn't like it, I would tell them to stop it, it is my horse and sorry but patting as a form of reward is absurd for him. Patting as a form of desensitizing or just an occasional "playing", I use it, to remind him that I am allowed to, but I won't pat him to say "good boy", if he is good, why should I give him something he doesn't appreciate?



And another point too, I'm really precautionous and polite with horses I know are sensitive and easily frightened, I behave like a "monster" with those that I know are quite disrespectful to human beings to show them first thing that I can eat them alive if they bother me, and then I show that I can also be comfortable. The thing is, with my own horse, we have developed a kind of link, and though first I would always try to control everything, now that he knows the rules and respect them (no biting no kicking no pushing aside no threatening...), I let him suggest some things and "ask for his opinion". 


The question of the pat changes: is it your own horse? Then you do what you want but then you are also responsible for the consequences - which is the same with a dog or even with children I think... you are the one teaching and training them so each decision must be thoroughly thought about -. Is it another owner's horse? then you respect what the owner asks you to (except if it is dangerous...). Is it a horse that has been beaten? Then I think you need to show you won't hurt it... Is it a horse that tends to think he's the boss? Then you have to show that it is not true and will never be. 



But there are more important problems than patting I'm sure! My horse gets patted by the BO, by his employees, and he doesn't react. He sure prefers to be stroked or get a massage but he won't freak out at every pat! Otherwise I would think I was a stupid owner, not to have prepared him for such a thing... but it is the same way that I prepare him to water, to spray, to umbrellas, cars, to load into a trailer, etc.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Of the five horses living on our barn, three are not especially sensitive creatures. None of the owners are fractious people and each of the horses is slowly responding to gentle handling. For differing reasons in each case I keep my distance from them and leave their further training to each owner.

The 7yo mare whom we rescued in February has to be treated sympathetically.
Only I and her owner go near her and to even get close enough to put a head collar over her head calls for extreme tact. She is slowly recovering from gross abuse but every now and again she freaks out and we have to wait for her to calm down. If you look at her from ten feet away you'll recognize a good looking sturdy welsh cob with a pretty head but getting closer to her calls for extreme tact. 
Maybe we can eventually find a home for her but that person will have to believe in much of what I have written on this thread about sensitivity. There is a need for gentle firmness when handling this horse but aggression in any form in the part of the human will have this animal rearing and running across the paddoack.

Much has been written about my own mare DiDi on this forum. She has been brought on in my way and I am well aware that as and when she moves out of my care she'll present a problem to any new owner who does not believe in 'sensitivity'. She will never be a horse for a human to try to dominate, but undoubtedly she is a horse for a human to reach a relationship with - especially when she is in season. 

In the past I have owned other horses who have called for a different style of handling. My cob Joe would and did take any 'soft' rider for a ride and if the rider did not keep him in order then he would quickly become unmanageable. He would take advantage of any perceived weakness in humans.

But isn't this what we horses owners look for namely a horse which matches our own personality and ability? 
Isn't this the sense of compatability which we seek when we first mount up and 'feel' the horse beneath our thighs? 

With hindsight DiDi is not suitable for the purposes I originally bought her - she is far too sensitive but if you watch her strut her stuff around a dressage arena then you can see in return for being neurotic she gives a stunning performance. I must accept her for what she is.
As the saying goes; "You pays your money and makes your choice" 

Personally I won't tolerate a horse which is positively aggressive towards any human ie one which is trying to kick or bite. I don't talk to such animals and I avoid them. In some instances, that is grossly unfair of me, because many of such horse were abused by humans as youngsters.

I know what I want from my relationship with a horse and mostly these days I am learning how to find it.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I like to think that I take horses as I find them. I definitely subscribe to the belief that there are different horses for courses. However I do also believe that regardless of the nature of a horse an end result of a calm, well adjusted, tolerant horse can be achieved. I don't mean this to sound mean spirited but I believe that neurotic people create neurotic horses. 

The young horse I had before Phoenix ended up as neurotic as a chocolate kettle on a hob. Years later and with hindsight I realize that his problems can be directly attributed to me and the state of mind I was in when I was trying to bring him on. I had lost a child, two grandparents and two horses in the space of eight months. I felt that Comet was the only thing I had left and literally feared for his life, I mean I had panic attacks on the way home from work because I was convinced I would get home and find he had had an accident and was dead. Not a great frame of mind to be trying to instill confidence and fearlessness in a young horse! To put it bluntly I absolutely ruined him and while there may have been mitigating circumstances it doesn't excuse me. I look back now and know with absolute certainty that if I had him now it would be a completely different result. Of course at the time it was completely his fault he was a difficult, neurotic horse!

If you think about it, it cant be very nice for a horse to fear so much of its environment, to be nervous and fretful of anything new. Isn't it more kind to be willing to go through a process of desensitization to teach your horse that every rubbish bin is not a horse eating monster. But then you hit a sticky problem because you as the horse owner have to be effective in delivering a message of safety to your horse. If no matter what you do to go through a desensitization program, no matter how kind and caring you are,the horse not only remains timid and spooky but its levels of discomfort seem to go up a notch, then you have to look at yourself for the root of your horses problems. 

I strongly believe that it is the way we introduce new things to our horses that decides the horses fear levels and responses. If you timidly try to lead your horse up to something new because YOU FEAR the horse will react to it, the horse immediately picks up on YOUR hesitation and has no choice but to assign the NEW OBJECT as the source of the fear because she KNOWS that YOU are not scary. You have managed to do completely the opposite of what you were trying to do. 

Having already been through the process of making one horse horribly neurotic, I am damned if I will do it to another one. May be people reading my posts think I am a hard *** when it comes to my horse, that I am insensitive and not understanding of the finer feelings of my animal. But I would dispute that by proving that my horse is confident, and brave, willing and excited to be out and about. I wish I was able to capture an incident that occurred a few weeks back on camera. 

Phoenix and I were riding on a bush track which was flanked by a hurricane wire fence. We came across a goat that had got its head stuck by pushing its head through the mesh and then been unable to pull it back out because of its horns. You see the dead bodies of goats that have died in this manner fairly regularly in these types of fences. Anywho, of course as soon as the goat saw my two dogs, Phoenny and myself it went into panic mode. It started thrashing itself against the fence trying to either push itself through the 5" gap or pull its own horns off. And the screaming of a goat in terror is HORRIFIC!!! 

Phoenix had never seen this before in her life, the thrashing and screaming of an animal absolutely in terror for its life. So I dismounted, yelling at the two dogs to leave the bloody thing alone (the goat that is) while I did so, threw the reins over the horn of my saddle and proceeded to wrestle the **** thing out of the fence. I never checked to see if my horse was fine, never stopped to reassure her I just knew that it wasn't a scary scenario so Phoenix took it for granted that it was safe and spent the entire time I goat wrestled standing there as an interested on looker. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect this behaviour from ANY horse regardless of temperament, type or breed. Attitude is everything.


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## stephnello (Mar 31, 2011)

> Much has been written about my own mare DiDi on this forum. She has been brought on in my way and I am well aware that as and when she moves out of my care she'll present a problem to any new owner who does not believe in 'sensitivity'. She will never be a horse for a human to try to dominate, but undoubtedly she is a horse for a human to reach a relationship with - especially when she is in season.
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tra...culous-re-patting-85200/page10/#ixzz1LUD5upMV​


I used to think that about my horse too. But because of my studies I had to find some people to take him out during the week, and he had 4 "demi-pensions", the first one was preparing him to jump so just dressage since he was still young and couldn't turn around weel-balanced, and then she had an accident, in a school-riding, and gave up my horse, but while she was far less sensitive than me, took much less precautions to approach my horse, she never got any problem with him, except that when he got depressed (cumulated muscle torn in pasture then colic then he had to stay in his stall while the others went into the pastures...) he was quite unpleasant with her while he was just a little bit moody with me. The second one was just wonderful, she treated him still with more gentleness than me, but was also able to show autority, and they got along soooo well I was almost jealous of how they came together in a month, while I had needed 2 years to build something... She was given a horse so she stopped too. The next one was just awful by her passivity... I mean it... I asked her to leave once I was told she had let my horse wander on the road in front of a truck... and she didn't react at all! My horse went back to the pavement alone, while the truck driver waited for the situation to be safe, and someone from the barn saw the scene and hurried to take my horse back into the barn, he had "tested" her ability to take decisions and could have died because she followed... gosh... And the last one was a bit too soft IMO but she took lessons so there was some balance between her softness and the trainer's rigidity. But she had to stop because she had to pay for her driving license.


Well with all these experiences, + several friends riding my horse and taking care of him, who are not looking at or for all those little signs of acceptance, I saw that there was no problem as long as the people are fair to the horse. Of course if he is punished unfairly, he gets all freaked out and tries to rebel, but even for that you must really be harsh on him... I got angry at my former BO once because she punished him while she shouldn't have, my horse remained nervous a while after she hit him, but he never replied to her violence... I did for him, but only with words and a really bad glance, and now we're out and the new BO doesn't seem likely to behave like that, fortunately.


But that's to show, maybe I'm a lucky girl, maybe my horse is just fantastic on his own, without my interfering, but I am almost always very polite and soft on him, and he won't react violently to more "rude" or "harsh" people all the same...


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Barry Godden said:


> The 7yo mare whom we rescued in February has to be treated sympathetically.
> Only I and her owner go near her and to even get close enough to put a head collar over her head calls for extreme tact. She is slowly recovering from gross abuse but every now and again she freaks out and we have to wait for her to calm down. If you look at her from ten feet away you'll recognize a good looking sturdy welsh cob with a pretty head but getting closer to her calls for extreme tact.
> Maybe we can eventually find a home for her but that person will have to believe in much of what I have written on this thread about sensitivity. There is a need for gentle firmness when handling this horse but aggression in any form in the part of the human will have this animal rearing and running across the paddoack.


I too have a grossly abused horse that I have Rehabbed. He was so scared that he had gone past the point of fleeing and into fighting for his life.

He is now a useful member of the equine species and regularly helps me with riders who have had a scare and who quite litteraly are shakeing at the thought of getting back on. I now trust him with little children, at shows, with dogs etc. i dont have to think twice about how I approach him now as it is exactly the same way I approach all my other horses.

i know that should anything happen to me (and that is the only way he would be leaving here as he is a very valued member of the family) then he could go into any home and would not need special handling or special treatment. He could be around loud rowdy kids and not blink at it. He could have kids hugging his nose and wouldnt shy away (and yes he has had this).

Photos of my Rehabed (previously horrificly abused pony)








and in this photo the dog is also a rehab case!








giving a child her first ever experiance in the show ring


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Faye, those evil (sarcasm) people in the first photo look like they might be patting that poor pony on the neck too. How dare you let them do that.
:wink:


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i dont think there is anything wrong with soft patting, but i HATE when people do those big slaps to show off how proud they are of their horse. even if you do it because youre happy it cant possibly feel good to the horse. i wont go as far as to say its horse abuse, but there is no need or purpose for it, when there is a nicer alternative.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

There is actually a form of message that involves those hard loud slaps. It is supposed to feel really good to the horse.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

BTW I should add ALL of my ponies are strapped, every day.
Stan used to turn into a pile of goo.
Pride is quite happy to stand there and let me do it whilst not tied up and often goes to sleep.
Reeco was wary at first but now he quite enjoys it and lets everything hang out!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Here's a video of me slapping Nelson on the neck while doing our Victory Gallop at the first HT we did last year, this was one of the 3 victory gallops we did, and each one I slapped Nelson on the neck to show him how proud I was of him...and he never flinches, or changes his attitude, now shows any signs of displeasure towards the slapping.......





 
Doesn't seem to me that Nelson disaproves of me slapping his neck. I think people make too much out of the subject.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

AWB
No that little blonde haired little boy is using his finger tips.
That is permissible


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

gypsygirl said:


> i dont think there is anything wrong with soft patting, but i HATE when people do those big slaps to show off how proud they are of their horse. even if you do it because youre happy it cant possibly feel good to the horse. i wont go as far as to say its horse abuse, *but there is no need or purpose for it*, when there is a nicer alternative.


And yet my horses 'preen' when I do a big slap after a good run. They KNOW I am proud and happy with them.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Barry Godden said:


> AWB
> No that little blonde haired little boy is using his finger tips.
> That is permissible


no he wasnt, that little boy is my cousin Ben, he patted pride, then grew a little braver and tried to pull prides plaits out. Then when removed from his facination with the plaits he was taken to prides head where he proceeded to launch himself out of my aunts hands and hug prides nose. The we took him back to the box, put a hat on the Ben and gave him a bareback pony ride.

Certainly no scratching or fingertips involved.


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