# Is Monty Roberts a fraud?



## tumai

hmmmmm...care to elaborate further on your sources of information and what is regarded as abuse?


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## ShakeiTxxx

This is balogna. Monty Roberts is my dads best friend.


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## naggy_jack

this is the website that has a lot of stuff on it: http://citizensforjustice.org/monty/ 
you can also look him up on google and there will be a lot of stuff and apparently his family has released a book called 'horse whispers and lies', correcting all the stuff that was false in his book. As for supporting horse abuse his sponsor apparently is 'Fort Dodge', which uses PMU (pregnant mares urine) as an ingrediant.


> It's collected from roughly 75,000 abused mares confined in tiny stalls at Wyeth-Ayerst-approved PMU farms in North Dakota and in Canada. The horses are stuck in these stalls for six-months at a time, get no exercise, are deprived water and proper medical care and their foals are usually murdered.


There has also been a few articles about Monty Roberts being fake in the horse and rider magizine.


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## kristy

I'm not inclined to believe either way. I don't think the recourses of this information are reliable nor is just taking Monty's word for it. I would need a more dependable resource to fully believe it. People so easily make rumors about celebrities, spokes persons, leaders, ect.


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## tumai

Looks like fairly SHADY website to me. I find it very interesting that you choose to throw suspicion on a horseman who has become a cornerstone pioneer in horsemanship.......I believe that a TRUE horseman would make an INFORMED decision about anyones methods of training by first making a thorough investigation and not just stopping at the first propaganda led website! and secondly a true horseman would test a method for truth! I personally take what I know to be true from a myriad of different horsemen and women, henceforth some methods I keep because I know them to be true and some methods I leave because I have failed them! 
For TEN years I have taken in abused, neglected, and unloved horses and for many of those horses it was Monty's methods that have brought them back and if you are any kind of horseman, which of course you are implying that you are by choosing to bag a well established horseman, you would understand what i mean by that! I find anything on this website very hard to be credible in any way and I am officially offended by your accusations.
Oh and this is just MY OPINION!


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## naggy_jack

Number one: I didn't make any accusations, i wasn't sure what to believe, thats why i made this board, and i'm sorry if i offended you, but i just wanted to see other peoples opinions before i started using his method in case it was actually abusing horses!
Number 2: I didn't just stumble across a random website, i haven't even read half the stuff on their, i just thought if you wanted to understand why i thought he MIGHT be a fraud, this website has all of the information in one spot.
Number 3: Monty Roberts isn't a pioneer of horsemanship, similar methods of 'Join up' were around before Monty Roberts became famous, and by the way by asking a question i'm not 'bagging' him!!
Number 4: What evidence have you given me to say he's true?


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## tumai

My questions to you....
Number One, If you are not making accusations why did you choose to present this topic with only one side of the debate other than you read his book?
Number Two, You have offered a website that you admit to not reading completly? and yet you are still asking the fraud question?
Number Three, Yes some methods of join up were present before Monty Roberts but it was he that took his method of join up to the world and therefore establishing himself as a pioneering horseman.
Number four, You yourself have read his book and have searched the net for him and have chosen to present only sites that display him in a negative light, surely you have found sites that present his methods? Evidence of truth is found in testing the method which I have already stated.


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## naggy_jack

ok, as i said before, i don't know whether Monty Roberts is true or not, this doesn't mean i believe he's a liar, it just means i don't trust his training methods and what to find out other people opinions because their is a possibilty that its false, and i don't want to, out of ignorance, start hurting horses. It would be stupid of me to buy his books and training devices and start using them, if i know that there is a lot of people out there who believe they are cruel. Of course his training methods and devices will work, other wise he never would have made a business or a name for himself. This however doesn't mean that they are not cruel to horses. 

As for the internet website, i have not read that website completly, when i was looking him up i found lots of different websites each saying different things about him. Today when i read you post asking for sources of information, i looked to find the best website to give you and this website seemed to have the most things. YES i have only shown him in negative light, but this is because that is what you asked for! If you had asked 'Why do you think Monty Roberts is true?' i would have told you to read his book, and given you all the websites that show his methods.



> I believe that a TRUE horseman would make an INFORMED decision about anyones methods of training by first making a thorough investigation and not just stopping at the first propaganda led website! and secondly a true horseman would test a method for truth!


What would happen if a "true horseman" tested every method and training device that was out their on his poor horse. Some of them will be fake, some of them would make the horse worse than he was before then what will they say... oh well i've just ruined a horse with heaps of potenial?!No! I tested the 'Join up' method because there was nothing that could've have done any damage and you didn't have to use any equiptment, and yes that method worked and im not questioning it, i'm questioning him and the stuff he's invented, the join up method has already been proven by other trainers! WHY WOULD I TEST SOMETHING THAT COULD HURT MY HORSE, INSTEAD OF ASKING PEOPLE, WHY WOULD I MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE MADE! 
AND i'm in the middle of making a thorough investigation...asking people is part of it! Yes i've found plenty of websites saying hes true, but half of them are written by him! I know some people who would never touch his products, and then theres other people, like you, who swear by it! You have no right to say i'm not a true horseman, i would never just believe just one website, and what gives you the right to define a true horseman anyway!


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## tumai

ok firstly the information you offered which is also the first negative site offered on Google do not prove to me that his methods are false or abusive. This site proves to me that people who have been previously been involved with Monty Roberts have missed the money train that Monty Roberts got on because he is talented in selling a product much like a musician or actor, I have further proven this to myself by reading these sites.
www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2000/d2000-0300.html
www.wipo.int/amc/en/domains/decisions/html/2000/d2000-0299.html
and then further with this site, www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,91711989824-1,00.
I would like to know if you are questioning abuse of methods or abuse of words? 
AND anyone who truly cares for horses would investigate methods and I agree you could hurt a horse especially if you thought you could train after reading a handful of books. What other stuff are you referring too as perhaps abusive? What other methods of Monty Roberts have you found proof to be abusive? Perhaps it would be his cause no harm belief? 
Yes there are alot of sites with Monty Roberts around 1,210,000 of them and I don't believe he has written half of them.
AND I did not say you were not a true horseman! In fact the world is full of true horseman. (Anyone who truly cares for there charge is a true horseman) I was stating that I believe that someone who truly cared for their horse (a horseman) would make an informed decision about anyones methods and to test a method for truth. Which does not automatically mean you go train after reading a book, Finding truth is even in chatrooms.
AND well I make my definition as MY OPINION and excercise my right to FREEDOM of SPEECH, just as you are entitled to yours. 
Oh and I don't swear by anything as I don't swear.


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## DressageOrBust

If you look closely in the first book he put out. I believe the one about Shy Boy....the "supposed" mustang actually has SHOES on in several photos. Pretty hard for a wild unbroke mustang to have shoes on. IMO. I've read several articles on him that make him sound less of a horseman, but again that's my opinion. Who's to say for sure or not.

Jenn


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## kristy

He is talented, yes. None of us know FOR SURE what his intentions are. He does however, do certain things to his advantage. For example, if you look at some of his clinics, often times the audience will be sitting circling outside the arena. The arena will have a bright light cast on it making the audience hard to see and cast in the darkness. This works to Monty's advantage because a) The horse can not see the "predictors" in the darkness therefore having a stronger herding instinct and wanting to join up and b) the horse has been plucked from HIS comfort zone into Monty's territory making the horse more vulnerable and thus, making the horse want to join up.
Is he a fraud? I don't know. Does he work things to his advantage? Sure, but if he is wise enough to figure this out, I will give him credit for being a knowledgeable horseman and knowing how horses think.


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## Starchild

DressageOrBust said:


> If you look closely in the first book he put out. I believe the one about Shy Boy....the "supposed" mustang actually has SHOES on in several photos. Pretty hard for a wild unbroke mustang to have shoes on. IMO. I've read several articles on him that make him sound less of a horseman, but again that's my opinion. Who's to say for sure or not.
> 
> Jenn


That is not true. Please, let's be truthful here. Actually, Shy Boy has never had a shoe on a foot in his life. You can see for yourself anytime you want because the public is welcome to visit him at Monty's ranch in California. He is a wonderful little gelding with great unshod feet. Don't post lies to try to discredit great horsemen. You say it's your opinion, but it's based on a bald face lie. There are no photos of Shy Boy in shoes and you know it.

I actually attended the BBC filming of the documentary about the starting of Shy Boy. He was definitely a raw BLM mustang. And, he never had shoes on his feet. And . . . he was not starved or deprived of water or pushed to physical exhaustion or secretly roped and sacked. He was just followed by Monty riding another horse until he decided to "Join-Up" instead of go away. Mind you, this decision was made after he "went away" for days and many miles. But Monty and his horse were far more exhausted and stressed than little Shy Boy. 

The BBC was anal about authenticity. They have an empecable reputation to uphold. They hired a person to monitor Shy Boy from the time of his adoption until the documentary was filmed. The film is great, but it doesn't capture the full extent of how amazing it was when Shy Boy accepted that rider. I don't think anyone on the set believed Monty could do it, accept of course Monty himself. 

You know, when Monty's book came out and the Shy Boy documentary aired on PBS stations around the US, many people thought that his techniques were too simple to be effective. That kind of skepticism is natural when a new idea is introduced. But, that was 10 years ago. He has proven his techniques time and again all over the World. The are hundreds of prominent horse trainers sucessfully using his techniques. Sheik Mohammed has all of his horses started using Monty's techniques. And, thoses are the most expensive Thoroughbred racehorses in the World. What more can the man do to convince people that Join-Up works?


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## Starchild

kristy said:


> He is talented, yes. None of us know FOR SURE what his intentions are. He does however, do certain things to his advantage. For example, if you look at some of his clinics, often times the audience will be sitting circling outside the arena. The arena will have a bright light cast on it making the audience hard to see and cast in the darkness. This works to Monty's advantage because a) The horse can not see the "predictors" in the darkness therefore having a stronger herding instinct and wanting to join up and b) the horse has been plucked from HIS comfort zone into Monty's territory making the horse more vulnerable and thus, making the horse want to join up.
> Is he a fraud? I don't know. Does he work things to his advantage? Sure, but if he is wise enough to figure this out, I will give him credit for being a knowledgeable horseman and knowing how horses think.


Kristy, what advantage can Monty gain from successfully demonstrating his techniques. He is not getting rich doing demonstrations. As a matter of fact, he can barely keep up with the costs of maintaining his ranch in California on the meager income he gets from clinics. His only real reward is helping to make the World a better place for horses. That is what he has dedicated himself to doing. And, by the way, most of his demonstrations take place in the daytime outdoors. And, he performs many demonstrations at his solid walled round pen at his ranch in California. If you're smart enough to figure out how this 73 year old man has for 50 years duped people into believing that he can train a horse without resorting to violence, why don't you go out and show the World how it should be done. After, all you are all knowing about "predictors" and "comfort zones".

I wish all of you fence sitting nay sayers would just set your egos aside long enough to learn the Join-Up technique and use it. You would be amazed at how much easier it is on you and your horses. Then you could show all of your friends what great horse trainers you are. Take all the credit. Don't even mention Monty, he doesn't care. He just wants happy horses.


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## DarkChylde

I don't know if he is a fraud or not. I DO know that I like his style, and while the major influence on my own variation of roundpen techniques leans far more heavily on Pony Boy and Ray Clements, I like his stuff and have studied the basics of it. 

I am sure if I made a book about my life, someone would say I was lyin somewhere, it is all perspective anyway, unless any of us know him personally and intimately and for most of his life we can't really say.

Consider the source is a good thing, if a whole website is set up for the sole purpose of discrediting one person kinda sounds like they must have an ax to bury, and that is undoubtably what is NOT addressed. I don't pay too much attention to websites set up entirely to discredit one person, but if there is validation from like snopes.com or something I mite give it more credibility....


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## FoxyRoxy1507

Personally Ive seen him in action, he had a clinic in florida about 5 or 6 years ago and me and my friend were chosen to take our horses to it. Well needless to say after watching the show i was horrified at what he did. He looked at my horse and said um i'm sorry i cant help you. Didnt even do anything and i had been on that list for months. With my friends horse she had been in a super bad trailer accident and was scared, all he did was man handle her into the trailer, after that she was even worse than before. The other most horrific scene i saw was a pony that was scared of clippers, all he did to "cure" the pony was take a stall gate door and mash the pony up the the side of the round pen and clip him, the poor pony was so terrified! I used to worship Monty Roberts, after i watched all this, i never believed a word about him and i hated him. I'm sorry to those people who still believe but i was like that once but now that i've seen, never again!


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## Vidaloco

I just wanted to point out that this is an old thread. Several of the posting members haven't been on in over a year. Don't expect a response from them :wink:


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## lovemyponies

wow foxyroxy that is just awful! I mean yes sometimes horses do need to be put in there place but what you describe is just terrible. especially for someone who claims to be completely different. I personally never put too much into Monty Roberts. I have seen so many like him at expos, etc. I would say all this negative info about him had to come from some where, I don't believe there are folks just out to get him. I also don't believe he is barely surviving. He has many books, videos, etc.

However I do think some of his methods are very good. I don't know about the PMU supporter, that seems awfully odd for a horse person to be affiliated with.

guess its a good discussion even though its old, thought provoking anyway.


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## Vidaloco

It is very interesting. I am really surprised that Monty Roberts put on such a poor performance Foxyroxy. I have read his books and seen a few demonstrations on RFDTV but never in person. How disappointing :-(


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## lovemyponies

maybe he was having a bad day but sounds like what a break um hard cowboy would do instead of monty roberts, but you were there! I think we all have to pick and choose from trainers/experts and see how it fits for the type of rider we are and the horse we are working with


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## Spastic_Dove

*Sigh* Every trainer has their over-zealous follower. 

Naggy_Jack, I think this is a good board. 
I hear a lot of great stuff about Monty Roberts and I think it's good that you are looking into him. I clicked the I don't know button for the poll. For researching your methods before you use them on your horse I think that makes you a true horseman whether or not Monty Roberts is. 

I live in Montana and for some reason a lot of the horse people I have come across hate him here. They say he is a fraud and just cowboys horses. 
And then I also have the people I used to ride with in Jersey who absolutely adore him.

I guess it just comes down to you and your horse. If his methods work for you and your horse use them. (Unless he tells you to beat your horse with a 2x4 or something but I think thats understood =P)


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## my2geldings

I think what he does goes along with the same feelings I have for parelli. I don't agree with them putting their name on something that didnt actually come from them but I guess good for them, they were smart enough to cocktail it and now they are making millions selling useless training and various gear to new horse owners who don't know any better.


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## simbakitten

personally i do not believe he is a fraud, yes these methods had been use by some people before, but it was not a widely accepted way of communicating , in fact when he started I'm pretty sure most people would have laughed at him and called him nuts. He did however show these techniques to the world and made people see that violence is not the only way. Also u think quite a few members of his family were offended and didn't believe him when he aid that his father beat him, so that defiantly didn't help their support of him. (i didn't see the website so I'm not sure what to say to this...)


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## Snapple122

His family even wrote a book on all of the lies he told

But I don't believe that he abuses horses, and I love his join up method. I like him more the Parelli.. Parelli is a marketing ploy whose first goal is making money, obviously.. but Roberts doesn't really market stuff, he is more there for the horses.


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## my2geldings

To me they all come from the same basket.


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## jazzyrider

there is though a big difference between someone who is in it for the money and someone who is in it for the horses.


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## upnover

I read a few of his books and thought they were pretty interesting. But he talks a lot about his dad being a pretty rough and abusive guy. What I heard is that his family claims that part's all a lie. They say he exaggerated about all of that to sell a book and they're pretty upset about it all. As far as him being a fraud as a trainer, I don't know. He has some great points in his training and some concepts that work well but I'm not going to consider myself a follower.


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## DarkChylde

About him not wanting to take a horse....

One thing about his clinics, he isn't allowed weeks and weeks with the horse, he has to try and prove his technique on a strange horse within the time limit of the clinic. Not to say his technique prolly cuddn't have helped the horse, but perhaps the horse's issues wudda taken longer, and the horse wuddn't have made good clinic material.

As far as him claiming something his that has been around a long time, he DOES have his own technique, tho when you study all the biggies you see the basic technique boils down to the same thing. I have my own version, similar but different. If I marketed my own variation, I too would claim it for my own, just as he did. I don't see that part as being underhanded or dishonest.

I like his technique, I too don't use whips (or carrot sticks or whatever) but I don't like using what he called 'predatory behavior.' I don't want the horse to see me as a predator, kinda gets in the way of the relationship.

I did hear from someone who actually knew his father that the stuff he wrote about his father wasn't true, but then again no one knows their father like the children. Hard to say, no one knows for sure, and I ain't the one to judge his personal stuff, but his techinique with horses is good.


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## lovemyponies

well I don't think the fact he would not take her horse is the biggest issue, the real issue is man handling already scared horses and making them worse instead of better


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