# Can a bay's face turn black?



## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I have put my gelding buck on here before. I was always curious of whether he was a buckskin. I was told it was possible but the only way to find out is if he had a hair test. I have never sent it out, since it really doesnt matter since he is gelded (obviously never wanted to breed him to begin with). I'm just curious...

Pics dont really show his coloring well... But this fall his coat began to do something new (he is 4yrs old). I noticed his face looked very dark! I started to freak out bc I thought he was loosing the hair along his eyes and nose (something similar to a fly bitten horses face). I freaked out not really understanding how it could happen after a frost! When i got up to him I realized he his hair is coming in chocolate to black around his eyes temple and cheeks. Is that a normal bay thing? I didnt get any pics of it. I forgot...

Here are the best pics I have of his coat. The one is from this spring on top of him. It shows his countershading, that runs all the way to his tail. His points are the same chocolaty black. He has a black mane with highlights, and usually no black on the nose until he sheds out...


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I am not seeing anything unusual in the photos, sorry. Oh, and he is definitely bay and not buckskin


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I know, I didnt get pics of the darkening of the face. These are of his normal coat... all I was wondering is if it's a different pattern? What is is called? I cant find anything similar online... He has rabicano characteristics too. And is is a specific bay color? Bc bays should have black points. His are ALWAYS chocolate colored... Is he getting bleached? I apologize for the muddy pic, btw, lol...


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Btw, Chiilaa, thanks for stopping by! U explain things very well! I am glad u opened my thread!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Essentially bay is restricting the production of black pigment. It restricts it to the points of the horse, but it is no unheard of for it to also affect how "black" the pigment that it still allows is. So dark dark chocolate legs are not uncommon.

Do you have any winter pictures? Looking at these pics and his baby pictures I don't think he is brown, but a winter pic would confirm or deny it


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Nope he isnt brown ... he's pretty red, lol... I'm sorry this picture is so old!!! I have so many pictures and I havent tagged any of them!!! I had a hard time finding this!!! His face is actually a little dark there... That dark area on his forehead is darker and expanding, lol... But he's like 9 months here, lol..


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

At least I dont think so. Ur the color expert here, lol...


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It's coming into winter there correct?

Brown and bay are both mutations of the same gene, so they do very similar things. They both restrict black to the points of the horse, just in different ways. Bay keeps black on the points as much as possible, leaving it off the main body of the horse. The body remains a very even tone all through the year. Brown restricts the black differently - it keeps it on the points, but mostly it keeps it OFF the soft points (flank, muzzle, inside the elbow, inside the hinds etc). Brown tends to have very variable colour season to season, with generally a visible change from winter to summer. It is often in the horse's winter coat that you can see the difference in the two.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

no that's very early spring... the day he was gelded.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I'm having a hard time visualizing the difference, but my MIL hastwo browns. The are ALOT darker than him. So I'm still saying bay... right?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/bay-horse-winter-131064/page3/#post1600226

This post has a few shots of "Bubba" - a brown that mimics "classic" bay in summer but is definitely bay


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Ok he's a brown that mimicks bay? But he's bay... Ok I tried to read the whole thread to figure it out.Ok I got some sorty crappy shots of his summer coat last year (he's not photogenic lol...) and then it will be ordered end of winter and early spring....I'll take a picture today of his face! I have to braid hair!


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I figure he's a bay, but I enjoy showing him off, lol... He's such a sweetie! The pic with the flag blanket he has a darker face, but it's even darker this year. But I'll post pics tomorrow. If u forget aboutme I'll just message them to you chiilea. He's filled out so nice!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I won't forget about you - I read every thread in this part of the forum, and usually get to read twice a day - no life, I know lol.

Is his muzzle paler than the rest of his face?


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Hold on... I'll do digging, but I think it is in the winter, but the very tip turns black?... He turns really red... Its hard to remember the details...lol these r the goofy faces he does when i take pics! Then when he hears the click his ears perk up, lol...


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

This is his brown half brother. I was braiding and deburring... I didnt take a pic when i finished either!!! I took the picture showing how bad he had the burrs, lol... Not a flattering angle of him either.


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## SaddleStrings (May 15, 2012)

Your bay is like mine. As her winter coat comes in, she gets darker, almost a dark brown/black appearance, especially around her face. I'll have to get some pics and post them.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SaddleStrings said:


> Your bay is like mine. As her winter coat comes in, she gets darker, almost a dark brown/black appearance, especially around her face. I'll have to get some pics and post them.


Your "bay" is brown in that case.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Yea, Buck's brother is owned by my mother in law. Him and his brother are browns. I thought they were bays for the longest time. I think that's why I didnt get Buck's coloring. But by time I started pulling out old braids yesterday I couldnt get a good picture. Is Buck (the horse I was asking about) a Bay or a light brown?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I am leaning toward light brown to be honest.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Hmmm... does it help if I tell you his mother was a chestnut? His father was a black and white tobiano.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

It does mean that the agouti gene, whether brown or bay, came from the dam (since black horses don't carry any version of them). However, being chestnut, it wouldn't have been expressed on her.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Ok, I have sinusitis and pharyngitis, so I didnt stay out and brush him out. I just went out, fed, cuddled, and went to the doctor... So apologize for the spit spots on him... 

Around his eyes it's running really dark. His belly seems to be lighter than it used to. I thought I'd show you that too.

Ok, my other dumb question. How come his dam DIDNT express the bay or brown? I thought it was dominate? She just carries the gene? I'm a little foggy headed today, I'm sorry....


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

he was so bright and pretty today!


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Wheatermay said:


> Ok, my other dumb question. How come his dam DIDNT express the bay or brown? I thought it was dominate? She just carries the gene? I'm a little foggy headed today, I'm sorry....


His dam was chestnut. Chestnuts do not express black in any way. Agouti (that causes bay and brown) only effects black hair. Therefore, chestnuts will not show whether or not they have Agouti.

More elaboration as an edit:
Bay and brown are black horses with the Agouti modifier. Agouti takes that black horse and says "hey, black, you're not allowed to be in this area anymore."
Since chestnut horses are not black, Agouti has nothing to modify. If a chestnut horse has Agouti, all it says is "I'm hiding cause there's nothing for me to do."


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Ahh... ok... I get it! I think, lol... So what is this darkening on his face? Is it called anything in particular? And is he showing a little pangare trait? Isnt it lighter on the belly and around the eyes and nose?


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

The lightening you're seeing is typical of brown horses- it often gets confused with pangare, but it's easy to tell the difference if you keep two things in mind.

1- Brown tends to vary seasonally, often quite dramatically. Some brown horses look bay in the summer and almost black in winter. Pangare is present year-round.

2- Pangare lightens the soft points to a white or greyish color, while brown is a warmer orangey-red color.

Here's an example of what pangare looks like on a bay base:


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Oh, I can give another example of Bubba  Here he is this summer. You can see how much he changes when he goes into winter. During the summer you'd never think he was a brown, but it's really obvious when he's got his winter woolies. Brown can mimic bay really well.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

So is Buck brown or bay? lol


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Brown for sure


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Oh cool! LOL! I thought his coloring was odd! It took me awhile of learning from you guys to pinpoint it! I didnt know the browns could be so light! I love his coloring! His brother is absolutely beautiful in the summer too! 

Off the subject a little, but the majority of our heard are paints (really not bc of preference, altho we do like them). The paints get the most attention, and I agree that they are beautiful, but they are the same colors every year, not really too much different. The solids (I guess all of them are brown, lol) are so pretty in the sun in the summer! Golds and dapples, and reds, and blacks in their coat! So beautiful! <3


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