# Some weight carrying thoughts, or questions



## Golden Horse

So today I went out and weigh taped everyone, and this is what I found and what I posted over there:


On actual measures Ben stands 16.2hh on 9" of bone, he was bought as 17hh, but I have never found the other 2"

His calculated weight is 1386 pounds, though I really must take him over the weighbridge one of these days to get an actual weight.

So 20% would put him carrying 278 pounds, with rounding, so in reality with in a couple of weeks I will be at 20%, a couple of weeks more to allow for tack etc.

Currently my tack and I will be at 23% of his bodyweight, so for 3% you wanmt to crucify me for walking him for 20 mins 2 or 3 times a week







Or maybe my maths are worse than I thought.

Willow, pictured in OP, is 15.2hh standing on 7.5 inches of bone

She weighs in at 1125, so 28% of her weight, so yes, work to do there.

Emmy is the interesting one, Polish Arab, standing 15hh on 8" of bone and rock hard feet.

According to the weight calculation she comes out at 1096, which I frankly find hard to believe, but she is very short compared to her girth, so nearly 30% for her.

Of all of them though Emmy is most compact, short back, well sprung, and tough as nails Arab, I often see it said that Arabs are better weight carriers so do we do the maths different for them? I have no intention of runing out there and riding her, it is a genuine question. 
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I am so NOT looking for any validations here, just interested in the general feelings from this side of the pond


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## tinyliny

Also, don't forget that conditioning is an important variable. A horse that is in good condition can carry more. So, you will work on building up Ben's carrying capacity by conditioning him little by little.


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## Golden Horse

True, we will be working on it


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## Birdz

I think the 20% rule is a good guideline, but its much more important to look at the overall conformation, fitness and bone structure of the horse.

I ride a 17hh, 1600lb spotted draft for work, and even though my weight + tack under the 20% rule is a min of 1050lbs horse... this horse is MUCH larger and I would NOT put anyone larger than myself on him, I am definitely at his upper weight limit not only because he's 5 years old and growing but his conformation is just plain terrible. Myself on him









He has gained weight since this picture was taken (in July) and probably grown some, but this is the only pic I have of him from the side (excuse his filthyness... he's a pigpen):









As you can see, he's got a LONG back and at 5 its already curvier than I'd like to see. His feet are small for his size as well (he's a draft size 3 shoe), he has a very narrow chest as well and a narrow frame in general. though he IS a draft horse, he's a pretty terrible weight carrier.

On the other hand our new horse is the same breed (spotted draft) is 16hh and probably only about 1300lbs (he needs about 100lbs of weight, we got him from the dealer skinnier than i like a horse to be). He's 6 years old and has MUCH better confirmation than our 5 year old for carrying weight. He has a wide-set frame, short cannons and a compact back. His shoe size is a draft size 4 so bigger feet than our other guy as well. I don't have a pic of him from the side, but you can see he's just a TANK:










When he gets up to a good weight around (1400-1450lbs) i'd have no problem having someone as large as 350lbs on his back simply because his conformation and build dictates that he is a very good weight carrier.

Haflingers are also great weight carriers. My haflinger is a fit and healthy 900lbs at 14hh, but he carries me well because of how he's built. Thick cannons, short back (my 18" dressage saddle is as large as he can take) and he has excellent confirmation for moderate weight carrying as well. HOWEVER, because he is of the "sportier" variety of a haflinger, his upper weight limit is probably around 225 with tack... so I'm almost there.









Another haflinger I ride regularly is 13.2hh. Although a fairly obese 1100lbs his frame at a healthier weight would still be around 1000lbs because he's built with a wider frame and stockier bones than my haflinger.









As he is right now I think his max weight is around 300lbs, but if he were in better shape, I think he wouldn't have a problem with 350lbs.

Obviously I'm no vet... but what any well educated horse person knows about bone structure, confirmation and fitness you can make an educated guess as to what that particular horse will be able to handle. Of course, there are individuals out there who don't take that into account... but we can only educate and not humiliate!

If you as an individual, feel you are not as fit and as balanced as you would like to be as far as riding goes, than select a horse that is not at the lower end of your weight range, but rather one that will be able to support you well as you reach your fitness goals. A stout draft or draft cross like my 6 year old horse at work, or the stockier haflinger... would be a good choice if you are 250lbs+


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## Shropshirerosie

"Since we had the invasion of the English "

Darn it! Did I miss it?! Were they wearing scarlet and blowing horns?


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## Golden Horse

Hubba Bubba, I like this guy










So you would rate the stocky haffy at carrying over 30% of his fit weight?

What about Arabs, anyone got any input on them?


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## Golden Horse

Shropshirerosie said:


> "Since we had the invasion of the English "
> 
> Darn it! Did I miss it?! Were they wearing scarlet and blowing horns?


**** near, the terrier pack was determinedly setting in as well


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## Delfina

I think you really need to take the breed/conformation of the horse into account.

My friend rescued a couple of Shetland ponies. We were looking at them today and discussing the possibility of breaking one and I said that I would be brave enough to get on if she got her trained up to that point, after all she wouldn't really be able to fling me considering how big I am compared to her. 

Uh no, after 2mins of math we determined that 20% of the 650lbs this pony weighs is 140lbs, so she could carry me + 30lbs of tack. Not only would I look REALLY ridiculous on this tiny pony but considering she does not have the typical wider, heavyset pony build, there is no way I would consider riding her on a regular basis even though I would pass the 20% rule.

Zero qualms though about riding her Welsh cob that's 8" taller and *should* be about 200lbs heavier. He has the typical wider than a house build and big, sturdy feet. The dork had zero problems bolting across a field at a dead run with me today and he's a good 300+lbs overweight and horrifically out-of-shape! Today was supposed to be a slow, short walk to start getting him into shape..... :?


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## afatgirlafathorse

Birdz, did you get to buy Ares?!?! I'm excited for you!

I agree that condition on both the part of the horse AND rider is also a big factor in the weight carrying ability of a horse. 

The 20% rule IS a good place to start if you aren't sure, but really, employing common sense is a pretty big factor here and has nothing to do with your weight. 

I am a big advocate for a strong, short back, short loin coupling and good bone density, but I also recently posted on my blog that I feel that for the safety of the rider, they should be doing some other kind of work besides just riding - even if it is just walking, if they are just beginning to ride.


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## Birdz

Not completely... Still paying him off until I can bring him home. He's lame due to an injury sustained during turnout anyway  poor baby. He probably did it breaking through a fence!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

Birdz said:


> He's lame due to an injury sustained during turnout anyway  poor baby. He probably did it breaking through a fence!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Not a poor baby then! self inflicted


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## callidorre

You didn't tell me you were paying him off! Shame on you Birdz  That's awesome!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d

People really need to quit spouting off that 20% nonsense, do you even know the source ? Or are you just constantly regurgitating it because the last person did. Just one of those completely false old wives tales with no basis in science that gets repeated over and over and over. 
SO a fat out of shape pasture puff can carry more weight than a trained conditioned horse that weighs less ?
So every single male western rider int he country is wrong and overloading anythign but the Budweiser Clydesdale ?
So for several hundred years when horses averaged about 14 hands, and probably 700-800 lbs, an actual unit of measure was a "Horse weight"(200 lbs) using in the pack horse transport industry. 
Oh and BTW, a study on the 100 mile Tevis endurance race, with several hundred riders a year going back ten years, probably one of the hardest races int he world. found ZERO nadda, nix nine frankenstein correlation between rider weight percentages up to around 32% ( highest percent studied) and completion rates. Or in top 10 finishers.


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## deserthorsewoman

Somebody posted a different way of calculating somewhere here. Bodyweight divided by circumference of mid cannon bone divided by 2. If the result is less than 75 you're good to go, and anything over 80 is too heavy. 
But, that also means an overweight horse could carry more weight which I find highly unlikely. 

I do remember reading about a test the army did after WW II, 14 h Arabs carried 240 lbs over all kinds of terrain over several days without any problems. Don't quote me on the numbers, tho, but it was quite high. 

I think it has a lot more to do with how the horse is built. And its fitness level and breed.


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## Golden Horse

Joe4d said:


> People really need to quit spouting off that 20% nonsense, do you even know the source


Horses



deserthorsewoman said:


> Somebody posted a different way of calculating somewhere here. Bodyweight divided by circumference of mid cannon bone divided by 2. If the result is less than 75 you're good to go, and anything over 80 is too heavy.
> But, that also means an overweight horse could carry more weight which I find highly unlikely.


I actually like this method, it is calculating the weight of both horse and rider and working out the carrying ability by the amount of bone.

that is actually fairer than the 20% rule because simply using those numbers a fat horse could be calculated as being able to carry more than a thin horse


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## deserthorsewoman

Oops, forgot to add weight of rider and tack;-)
So, it is:
weight of horse, rider and tack divided by circumference of mid cannon divided by 2


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## Joe4d

atill pretty ,meaningless as most people wouldnt know the body weight of their horse if it fell on them. Weight tapes are a joke, and how many people put their horses on an actual scale ? I have, but as muscles, fat and hydration levels change those numbers change also. A 920lb horse can loose 40 to 50 lbs of water pretty quickly. 
Breed, confirmation, condition, age, temperature, terrain, all have a much greater influence on load ability than some arbitrary pulled out of thin air percent.

BTW Gen George McClellan, an admitted horse lover and man hater did a study using data collected in the summer in the soutwest, that found Calvary horses, could carry 20 % all day every day, and only be fed at night and last for months with out breaking down. Of course again, how did he weigh the horses ? and when did he weigh them morning or after being rode all day. Anyway he published an Army cavalry manual using those numbers and they have been getting repeated as the gospel ever sense. 
Keep in mind this self proclaimed "expert" in cavalry consistently had his cavalry embarrassed by the poor unfortunate unedumacated southern cavalry.


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## DixieDarlin

Here's a link to a weight estimator The Horse | Weight Calculator and here's a formula for calculating a horse's weight for a horse older than one year (heart girth x heart girth x body length)/330=estimated body weight in pounds. For a weanling, divide by 280, and for a yearling, divide by 301.


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## deserthorsewoman

Golden Horse said:


> Horses
> 
> 
> 
> I actually like this method, it is calculating the weight of both horse and rider and working out the carrying ability by the amount of bone.
> 
> that is actually fairer than the 20% rule because simply using those numbers a fat horse could be calculated as being able to carry more than a thin horse


not so sure if it's fairer.
Example:
1000lbs horse: 20%=200lbs
1000lbs horse+ 220lbsrider+40lbs tack : 8" cannon : 2=78.75, so still in the range. 
So according to that way, a 1000lbs horse with a not so strong bone(for his weight) could carry 260lbs. 
1200lbs horse+250lbs rider+40lbs tack: 9" bone comes out to 82.78, so too heavy.


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## Golden Horse

Real life examples.

Big Ben, he weighs in a 1386 pounds, stands 16.2 hh and change, on 9" of bone, and is in hard condition.

Using the % method I'm at 23% which I think is fine for the small amount I ask him to do. 

Using the calculation I am at a horrific 94. time to find a new horse, but certainly makes you think about his ability.

Willow there, 28% by weight and scoring 96 on the scale, so a couple of points to the worse as expected.

Emmy though, 30% by weight, but 88.8% by calculation. 

That makes sense to me, Emmy is more compact and on a better density and weight of bone. She is also overweight, lets say 100 pounds......

If Emmy lost her 100 pounds, she would then weigh 996, if we look at % weight carrying, then the new % would be 32% moving to the worse..

But by the calculation we would come out at 82.25, reflecting that by her losing weight she would overall be supporting less weight. 

So If Emmy loses 100 and I lose 50 we will be able to ROCK IT!


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## deserthorsewoman

This is exactly what I found. My Arab in the avatar...14.2, currently overweight(he's in menopause, packs the pounds on midline only;-)), very short and strong back and 8" cannonbone. Technically, according to the example, he'd come out to not even 73 with me and tack......now im debating who should diet first


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## Golden Horse

deserthorsewoman said:


> now im debating who should diet first


Keep each other company, that's what Emmy and I are doing:thumbsup:


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## deserthorsewoman

I was so hoping you would suggest starting with him;-)


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## PunksTank

Personally it really depends on the breed and conformation, if the horse is comfortable carrying you, ride it. That grey clearly was not comfortable. You gotta be honest with yourself when you get on, do you or the horse feel uncomfortable? 

I just had a question, you mention your horse has 9" of bone, how do you measure that and what does it measure? I've never heard that measurement before


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## Golden Horse

You measure the circumference of the canon bone halfway between knee and fetlock. It is a very traditional measure in the UK especially when talking about hunters THE SHOW RING - The Show Hunter


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## Bluebird

I am one of the 'invading' english. Over the pond, riding schools will not accept riders who weigh over 13 stone (I think its about 150lbs) riding a horse or pony who is not capable of carrying the weight safely. The conformation and size of the horse is taken into consideration as is the size and weight of the rider. For those ladies and gentlemen who are a little heavier, we simply give them bigger, heavier horses such as heavy cobs or genuine 'Heavies' such as Clydedales, Shires, SUffolk Punch etc. However, for people who are morbidly obese, I am afraid they are not allowed to ride because of safety issues - the horse and theirs. The picture of the overweight guy sitting on that poor gray horse who genuinely could not take the guy's weight looked absolutely horrific to me and would be classed an animal cruelty in the UK. Before anyone gets on their high horse with me, I am a 'heavier lady' and I ride a Clydesdale. I keep trying to lose weight so I will look better on him but I still have this image of me as a hippopotamus riding my beautiful horse. One day, I will be svelte and beautiful again and then I'll wake up! LOL


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## Bluebird

PunksTank said:


> Personally it really depends on the breed and conformation, if the horse is comfortable carrying you, ride it. That grey clearly was not comfortable. You gotta be honest with yourself when you get on, do you or the horse feel uncomfortable?
> 
> I just had a question, you mention your horse has 9" of bone, how do you measure that and what does it measure? I've never heard that measurement before


You measure around their front leg just above the joint. A guide in the UK is 1 inch = 1 stone (in carry weight) Don't worry, we don't think it works out either and every horse in england would only carry people who weigh no more than 55kg/8stone! It won't happen LOL


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## Golden Horse

I'm still thinking about this, while dieting to be able to ride my girls, some more things to think about....

I have seen quoted often the following...

*=======================================

Comparably, a study of 374 competitive trail riding horses compared horse/rider weight relationships. They concluded that these horses can easily carry over 30% of their body weight for 100 miles and not only compete, but compete well. As would be expected, good body condition and bone structure were found to be paramount. Bone structure was evaluated using the front leg cannon bones as representative of general structure. 

==============================*



But I can't find the original study, or any citation of it, your thoughts? Does anyone know where this came from?


Then I find 'people', not experts, saying that Arabs can carry 25% to 30% of their weight thoughts? It is always said that Arabs can carry a heavier load than other horses, because of their short backs, what are you thoughts on this one?


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## deserthorsewoman

Well, Arabs do have one less vertebrae and denser bone. That together makes for a healthier structure. They are smaller, also. So center of gravity plays a role. Just like the shorter weight lifter can handle more in comparison to his height than the tall one. I think


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## Bluebird

Golden Horse said:


> I'm still thinking about this, while dieting to be able to ride my girls, some more things to think about....
> 
> I have seen quoted often the following...
> 
> *=======================================
> 
> Comparably, a study of 374 competitive trail riding horses compared horse/rider weight relationships. They concluded that these horses can easily carry over 30% of their body weight for 100 miles and not only compete, but compete well. As would be expected, good body condition and bone structure were found to be paramount. Bone structure was evaluated using the front leg cannon bones as representative of general structure.
> 
> ==============================*
> 
> 
> 
> But I can't find the original study, or any citation of it, your thoughts? Does anyone know where this came from?
> 
> 
> Then I find 'people', not experts, saying that Arabs can carry 25% to 30% of their weight thoughts? It is always said that Arabs can carry a heavier load than other horses, because of their short backs, what are you thoughts on this one?


I still wouldn't let my Clydedale carry anyone who was morbidly obese like that horrific photo you posted of that guy. I think the issue is that all horses are different (within reason). It depends ont he fitness of the horse, the size and weight ratio of the rider etc. I would take that article about a horse carrying 30% above its body weight with alarge pinch of salt. It is someones theory. In the UK we don't allow horses to over work themselves. If they are pulling a carriage, their limit is 7-10 miles then they are rested. On a 'hack' we do maximum 1.5 to 2 hours on a fit horse then rest them. Heavy schooling we don't do more than an hour, regardless of rider weight (as long as the weight of the rider is in context with the size and weight of the horse). I have seen some really horrific vids on YouTube of some extremely overweight american people trying to get on and ride horses that are way too small. They are egged on by their 'slimmer friends'. To us in the UK, videos like that would draw the attention of the RSPCA as it is genuinely classed as animal cruelty. Our laws are much stricter over the pond. People will make of that what they may. If you are too overweight, you should always put the welfare of the animal above your own selfishness. If you are just chunky, like me, make sure your horse fits you and your weight. As I said, I am 5ft 3 and weigh about 12 stone (168lbs) aprrox. I ride an 18.1 hh Clydesdale and I have ridden a 16.2 cob type horse with no problems. I was once given a 15hh Arab to try and refused to get on it because I knew I would be too heavy for it. Whatever, enjoy your riding and try and watch your weight so you and your beautiful horse can continue to enjoy it.


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## Bluebird

deserthorsewoman said:


> Well, Arabs do have one less vertebrae and denser bone. That together makes for a healthier structure. They are smaller, also. So center of gravity plays a role. Just like the shorter weight lifter can handle more in comparison to his height than the tall one. I think


I still wouldn't let anyone who was obviously obese get on an arab no matter what people say. Not good for the horse!


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## deserthorsewoman

This 15hand Arab would have carried you easily over 100 miles and then some, trust me. 
I firmly believe, the taller and heavier the horse, the less weight you can add on.


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## Bluebird

deserthorsewoman said:


> This 15hand Arab would have carried you easily over 100 miles and then some, trust me.
> I firmly believe, the taller and heavier the horse, the less weight you can add on.


Disagree about the taller, heavier horse taking less weight. I am talking about genuine heavy draft horses. Nothing stronger LOL. I am sure any good horse would do amazing things and carry someone 100 miles over several days/weeks. Its all relative though and I can't see even the best arab carrying someone who weighs 25 stone for 100 miles LOL.


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## deserthorsewoman

That would be a little exaggerated, lol....but you could easily ride an Arab. 
And the pic posted here of the guy on the gray....I would've put the horse on him;-)


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## Golden Horse

OK, here is a 15hh Arab, who is is very thick and chunky in her build, even under the extra weight she is carrying here










I will have to get a set of conformation shots of her. I estimate that she will be 1000 pounds at a fit weight...............which leads my mind into another direction, as she loses the fat, but builds muscle will she actually stay the same weight but be healthier?.........20% would mean that she can carry 200 pounds of rider and tack, but I believe that she could actually carry more, how much more I don't know.

I come back to the thing that I wonder about, the Fells and Highlanders in England, together with a lot of the native breeds would have been carrying more than 20% a lot of the time. Are we more enlightened now, or have we bred out some of the weight carrying ability?

If we are saying 20% rule, but then we are saying that Arabs, Pasos, native ponies, Icelandics etc, are better weight carriers can they exceed the 20% rule and by how much? If they can't then why do we say they are better.

Some people are making a lot of riding big drafty types, while others are saying that drafts are actually a bad choice because they were bred to pull not carry, how do we add that in the equation, because for sure an 2000 pound shire horse would not want to be carrying 20% around a 400 pound person.


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## tinyliny

Bluebird said:


> If you are just chunky, like me, make sure your horse fits you and your weight. As I said, I am 5ft 3 and weigh about 12 stone (*168lbs) aprrox*. I ride an 18.1 hh Clydesdale and I have ridden a 16.2 cob type horse with no problems. I was once given a *15hh Arab* to try and refused to get on it because I knew I would be too heavy for it. Whatever, enjoy your riding and try and watch your weight so you and your beautiful horse can continue to enjoy it.


 
Well, you missed out on a great opportunity. While I beleive that there IS a limit , and some of those You Tube videos make my blood boil, 168 lbs is nowhere near too much for a 15hh Arab! nowhere near. Seriously.

15hh arab is a standard size for most Polish arabs. grown Men ride them all the time and I guarantee you, they weight more than 168lbs.


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## deserthorsewoman

I remember well from my warmblood times that some horses were considered weight carriers and others not. And we're talking warmblood height, 16.2 and up. The weight carriers were rarely any taller than the others, but heavier boned and wide. Now that was 30, 40 years ago, before all the 20% craze. 

While I would not put 200lbs on a 16.2, narrow, fine boned TB, that little mare, I think, could handle it. Although she looks a little in the fine-boned side, maybe due to her markings.


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## deserthorsewoman

And, lets not forget, conditioning plays a big role. When the horse is carrying it's weight on the hind end and comes up in his back, it will have less problems carrying than the horse who is not collected properly.


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## Bluebird

tinyliny said:


> Well, you missed out on a great opportunity. While I beleive that there IS a limit , and some of those You Tube videos make my blood boil, 168 lbs is nowhere near too much for a 15hh Arab! nowhere near. Seriously.
> 
> 15hh arab is a standard size for most Polish arabs. grown Men ride them all the time and I guarantee you, they weight more than 168lbs.


She looks a very well rounded arab in the photo and looking at her, I would say that she could carry me. The one I was presented with had a much lighter frame! It really is a matter of opinion on what horses can and can't carry and I said before, every horse is different. We have so many more rules and regulations in the UK than you do in the States around animal welfare. And I am not suggesting for one minute that any of you are wrong to do what you do with your horses. Its just different for us as horses are not as integrated into our every day lives anymore as they are over in the USA, Australia and Canada. It is a real pity!


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## PunksTank

I think one key thing about the rider and the horse is not so much the weight, but the fitness. A seriously obese person who is completely unfit should not ride a horse, even a large fit one, very easily - riding horses is a sport, even a casual trail ride takes a great deal of muscle strength/tone and energy. If you are not fit enough to handle riding you shouldn't. That being said there are a number of heavy people who are very fit. MY fiance is about 250 pounds, he's a bit over 6 feet and built 'sturdy' but he's fit enough to go for a run - or ride a horse. 
The horse's size matters a great deal, but honestly their fitness matters a great deal. A draft horse can easily carry a heavy person, but I've seen a massive number of those drafts - the rent a horse or trail type horses that are used for the heavy visitors - who are not fit and have atrociously swayed backs, simply from being completely unfit - and even they should be ridden by lower weight riders until they are fit enough to handle a heavier rider. But I guess it's hard to measure fitness levels - I'm not heavy, but I know multiple horses and ponies I wouldn't get on simply because I don't feel they're fit enough to carry a rider, yet. At the same time the reverse could be said - a young fit horse could probably comfortably carry a heavy % rider without an issue.

There are so many variables here I really don't think there's any way to create a formula to base this on. At our therapy program we use the 20% law, but this is considering our horses are not in the best of shape and the riders may have physical or emotional issues that may lead to excessive motion or toll on the horse - so we set it on the lower margin, with some variation depending on each student's needs. I'm only about 17% of my pony's body weight, but I think I'd look like an absolute buffoon riding him xD So again - I feel there are too many variables to really say.


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## Golden Horse

Time for a story...

Way back in the mists of time when I was 16 or 17 my RI in the UK said I could take her very weedy looking bay arab 14hh mare out hunting. I was happy to take her, but thought my 140 pounds might be a bit much, although J said she would be fine. Went on a diet and lost 7 pounds, down to my lowest ever weight, seriously skinny, no shape at all. 

Hunting day dawns and I'm getting Rose ready, and get handed a double bridle, and I'm :shock: get told that she is a bit keen and I will need an emergency set of brakes. Just to say about that day, she hardly stood still all day, wanted to be in the first flight if at all possible, and had the nerve to bolt on the way back to the box, and no she wasn't uncomfortable, I was though, everything hurt, my hands were ripped to pieces, having lost my **** gloves at a stop somewhere, madam had started off after hounds before I was ready.

That day put me off of Arabs for a long time, she started full of go, and just never quit all day. I still laugh when I look at how over the last 3 years I have gathered 2 bay arab mares, and 2 bay half arab mares:lol:


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## deserthorsewoman

Bluebird said:


> She looks a very well rounded arab in the photo and looking at her, I would say that she could carry me. The one I was presented with had a much lighter frame! It really is a matter of opinion on what horses can and can't carry and I said before, every horse is different. We have so many more rules and regulations in the UK than you do in the States around animal welfare. And I am not suggesting for one minute that any of you are wrong to do what you do with your horses. Its just different for us as horses are not as integrated into our every day lives anymore as they are over in the USA, Australia and Canada. It is a real pity!


well, with all the rules and regulations, how in the h*** do they explain Aintree then*shakes head*


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## Bluebird

deserthorsewoman said:


> well, with all the rules and regulations, how in the h*** do they explain Aintree then*shakes head*


I am not speaking about horse racing. That is a whole different ball game and I am not entering into a debate about the horrors of that. I am talking about general day to day riding otehrwise we could go on forever.


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## deserthorsewoman

This was not meant to be directed at you, it was directed at the folks who come up with rules and regulations. 
And talking about racing is certainly off topic;-)


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## Bluebird

deserthorsewoman said:


> This was not meant to be directed at you, it was directed at the folks who come up with rules and regulations.
> And talking about racing is certainly off topic;-)


I knew you weren't getting at me LOL. Just saying that racing it is a different ball game and they seem to write their own rules as they go along. That area is all about money and nothing to do with welfare of horses in my opinion - although the horses are very well looked after until they have finished racing! I live not far from Epsom (famous horse racing community) and the number of 'broken down' racehorses I see at the age of 3 or 4 is heartbreaking. They used to be shot! But now, some good people are rehoming them as field companions and riding horses. We have two fabulous retired racehorses at the farm where I keep my Clydesdales saved by my horse' wonderful groom. It has taken him the best part of a year to nurse ruptured tendons, sort out bad hooves and get the horses sound enough for riding. These are for an 'experienced' rider only but they are really sweet horses and provide wonderful and fun companionship for my two boys.


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## deserthorsewoman

I know, my first horse was a TB off the track, my second also. The last one was given to me because his trainer liked him too much to go to the kill buyer, his owner didn't care. I also took in two off the track standardbreds, worked on a third, but he suddenly died while recovering from an injury. All of them fabulous horses. 
What made me say that is that having these strict animal welfare laws but letting a race like the Grand National even happen, where horses die every year, and who knows how many won't even survive the training, is weird. But laws are made by politicians who have their interests, or no brain, or both....
Prime example: I had a big argument with the state agricultural commission once. EU law says you can have one large animal unit per hectare on extensive (opposed to intensive) declared pasture. One large animal unit is a cow 2 years or older, or a horse 6 months or older....so they are saying the tiny Shetty foal eats as much as an adult cow?????????


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## Bluebird

deserthorsewoman said:


> I know, my first horse was a TB off the track, my second also. The last one was given to me because his trainer liked him too much to go to the kill buyer, his owner didn't care. I also took in two off the track standardbreds, worked on a third, but he suddenly died while recovering from an injury. All of them fabulous horses.
> What made me say that is that having these strict animal welfare laws but letting a race like the Grand National even happen, where horses die every year, and who knows how many won't even survive the training, is weird. But laws are made by politicians who have their interests, or no brain, or both....
> Prime example: I had a big argument with the state agricultural commission once. EU law says you can have one large animal unit per hectare on extensive (opposed to intensive) declared pasture. One large animal unit is a cow 2 years or older, or a horse 6 months or older....so they are saying the tiny Shetty foal eats as much as an adult cow?????????


EU law differs slightly to Uk law. As a rule of thumb you should have 1 acre per horse/cow plus an acre. A 'horse' is defined as an'equine' from the smallest Shetland to the biggest Shire. Basically its a load of bolony and not many people trading in animals adhere to it. The RSPCA and World Horse Welfare are kept quite busy! However, I am going to buy a farm and move from overcrowded Surrey back to the open spaces of Scotland. I intend to have 4-5 horses or possibly 6 or 7 and a few rescues/retired...husband thinks 5 acres will do us (yep that's grand!) but I am looking for about 70-100 acres, possibly more...LOL. Not many places left in England where you will find that much grazing land in one place. LOL


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## deserthorsewoman

Old rule, and im talking 30, 40 years ago, was 1 1/2 hectare (roughly 4 acres) for the first horse and 1 hectare for every horse after that to feed them year round, so hay and pasture. Of producing pasture, of course. And I think that's about right, keeping in mind the much shorter growing season in Europe compared to where I am now. We have 8 acres producing, means irrigated, and can, due to the climate, get at least 3 cuttings, if fully irrigated even 5. So im fine with it for my two horses, I might even make a profit from selling the extra hay
Good Luck finding land. I gave up in Germany and decided to come here;-)


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## Golden Horse

Move out here Bluebird, we were looking at buying 140 acres on the Orkney Islands, then 80 acres north of Aberdeen, ended up buying 1400 acres out here in the prairies, mind you we count acres to a live stock unit, rather than than the other way.


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## Bluebird

Golden Horse said:


> Move out here Bluebird, we were looking at buying 140 acres on the Orkney Islands, then 80 acres north of Aberdeen, ended up buying 1400 acres out here in the prairies, mind you we count acres to a live stock unit, rather than than the other way.


Oh my. I am starting to really really like you lot!


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## Runninghot88

Didnt read through the entire post, so if I repeat I apologize. I dont agree with the whole 20% of the horse's weight is the max amount they can carry. It all depends on the invididual horse, confirmation, and riders ability. With all of my tack and me combined it is around 250# and my horse is a AQHA that looks more an appendix and is only 15.2hh. We comepete in barrel racing and pole bending and do place quite frequently. I ride him 6 days a week from anywhere between 30 minutes to an hour of constant motion. We attended a clinic that was 6 hours long of riding and yes afterwards he was extremely tired, but so was I  I have ridden little stocky 14.1 quarter horses to 17.3 hh OTTB. I have never really noticed a horse struggle with my weight or my tack. The little 14.1 had a shorter back but my 16" full skirt barrel saddle still fit. I have ridden arabs, walkers, morgans, and many others in 5 years. At the same time not to tote my own horn, but am a balanced quiete rider and work very hard on it. Its kind of hard to sit and read how many people say their weight stops them from full filing their dreams. Yes some people are prejudgemental on a rider's ability because of their weight. Believe me, I know because most of those that run barrels are tiny little things. But it has never stopped me from riding horses. I have never even really thought about my weight interferring. At the same time though I dont like short strided horses and would never ride a pony.


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## JaphyJaphy

Calculations aside, I think it's depends on the fitness level, health, condition _and_ experience level of both the horse and the rider. 

For instance, I feel that a heavy yet competent (balanced, supple, straight, etc.) rider is likely a better option for a horse than an inexperienced (lack of balance, etc.) rider who is a normal weight.


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## Leemew

deserthorsewoman said:


> not so sure if it's fairer.
> Example:
> 1000lbs horse: 20%=200lbs
> 1000lbs horse+ 220lbsrider+40lbs tack : 8" cannon : 2=78.75, so still in the range.
> So according to that way, a 1000lbs horse with a not so strong bone(for his weight) could carry 260lbs.
> 1200lbs horse+250lbs rider+40lbs tack: 9" bone comes out to 82.78, so too heavy.



So a person at or over 250 couldn't ride a horse without being too heavy? I'm not picking a fight, just simply asking.


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## deserthorsewoman

No, it depends on the horse. The example was the OP's horse with the estimated 8" cannonbone.
If you take my mare, 1150lbs + the above 220lbs rider+45lbs tack: 9" cannonbone :2 = 78, so within the limit. 
If the horse was lighter, but had the thicker bone, it would be even better.
But with my mare, even with stronger bone,I'd be a bit more careful because she is very long in the back. So, proportionally, a smaller lighter horse with short strong back can carry more than the bigger horse with long back. Has to do with center of gravity also.
Eta: just noticed, different thread regarding the OP....oops...but nevertheless, the math is right.


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## Leemew

deserthorsewoman said:


> So, proportionally, a smaller lighter horse with short strong back can carry more than the bigger horse with long back.


So an example of a smaller sturdy breed known for it's carrying ability would be?


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## deserthorsewoman

Haflinger, Fjord, Welsh Cob, "built" Arabs, not the dainty show type. A good solid QH, Connemara, a lot of gaited breeds, short, all who are nice and rounded, a solid base and a normal/ short back.


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## PunksTank

And dont forget donkeys and mules! Those are great weight carriers  and freaking cute!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bluebird

Personally, I think sometimes we expect too much of our horses. I think we should all go on a diet and then everyone would be happy! Too much food = fat. Its not hormonal, medical condition or anything else apart from eating too much! LOL. I have a Clydesdale whose cannon bone is extremely large but I still look like a hippopotamus when I ride him. I am now dieting, especially after I saw the wonderful lady on here who lost loads of weight. So far I have lost 10lbs! Which is equivalent to 10 tubs of butter.


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## JaphyJaphy

Bluebird said:


> Personally, I think sometimes we expect too much of our horses. I think we should all go on a diet and then everyone would be happy! Too much food = fat. Its not hormonal, medical condition or anything else apart from eating too much! LOL. I have a Clydesdale whose cannon bone is extremely large but I still look like a hippopotamus when I ride him. I am now dieting, especially after I saw the wonderful lady on here who lost loads of weight. So far I have lost 10lbs! *Which is equivalent to 10 tubs of butter.*


Well when you put it that way...WOW. And good work! You've certainly inspired me.


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## Golden Horse

Bluebird said:


> Too much food = fat. Its not hormonal, medical condition or anything else apart from eating too much!


In 99% of cases that is true, but there are people who do have genuine medical issues. I have just been told this morning that I should go for a blood test because I have all the signs of a hormone inbalance, and I have a hormone issue, not an fat issue.

My first instinct is to say "Yeah right" my second, actually go and do the research, because if there is anything in it, then maybe I can get this diet to really work.


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## Leemew

Bluebird said:


> Too much food = fat. Its not hormonal, medical condition or anything else apart from eating too much! LOL.


Doesn't really have anything to do with eating, it's just how fast or slow your metabolism is, and some people (such as me) _do_ have medical conditions that prevent them from losing weight. I've always been overweight and my steady weight was 150 but I was put on medication to help my sleeping disorder that was misdiagnosed and gained 100 pounds and no matter what I do, it won't come off. I've been diagnosed with really severe PCOS and chronic Crohn's Disease that affects my digestive tract I'm on a special diet but the pain is still unbearable. I walk about 3 miles a day for exercise, but to no avail. I'm starting treatment in February for my PCOS to balance the hormones, lose weight, and hopefully get rid of the cysts on my ovaries. I envy people who are successful at losing weight.


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## Golden Horse

Food for the brain, not the stomach....


> *Obesity occurs when your body consumes more calories than it burns.* In the past, many people thought that obesity was simply caused by overeating and under-exercising, resulting from a lack of will power and self-control. Although these are significant contributing factors, doctors recognize that obesity is a complex medical problem that involves genetic, environmental, behavioural, and social factors. All these factors play a role in determining a person's weight.
> *Recent research shows that in some cases, certain genetic factors may cause the changes in appetite and fat metabolism that lead to obesity.* For a person who is genetically prone to weight gain (e.g., has a lower metabolism) and who leads an inactive and unhealthy lifestyle, the risk of becoming obese is high.
> Although a person's genetic makeup may contribute to obesity, it's not the primary cause. Environmental and behavioural factors have a greater influence - consuming excess calories from high-fat foods and doing little or no daily physical activity over the long run will lead to weight gain. Psychological factors may also foster obesity. Low self-esteem, guilt, emotional stress, or trauma can lead to overeating as a means to cope with the problem.


So again, the blanket statement does not apply to everyone, the world has become more sophisticated than that. That is not to say that most of us can't rectify the situation, it is just harder for some than others, and for a few it is darn near impossible.


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## afatgirlafathorse

I, for one, find it insensitive and ridiculous when people throw around things like - eat less, move more - or 'just burn more calories than you consume'. For some of us, sure, the weight is laziness. For some of us, it is genetic, medical related, etc. For some of us, it is a layer of emotional protection that we have carried for years to protect ourselves from intimacy and getting rid of it is a bit more to deal with in the head than in the body. I say this as someone who was inappropriately touched as a child by another child and who used my weight as as barrier of protection for myself for years. On top of that, I had to learn to love myself to learn how to take care of myself. You wouldn't tell someone who had a traumatizing psychological experience, or who is battling depression, etc, "how to get over it" like it is simple math and any idiot should be able to figure it out.

That is my rant of the day.


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## stevenson

its easy to say lose weight. some people have problems, and the weight just does not drop. dont say exercise more, i walk, i have ten acres, i clean after dogs, poo and what ever they chewed apart , an orchard, horse pens to clean, water troughs to scrub, horses to brush. I dont over eat. I would love to get down to 165 , and at that weight I am not fat. I would never be a size 0 , my bones are bigger than that .


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## afatgirlafathorse

stevenson said:


> its easy to say lose weight. some people have problems, and the weight just does not drop. dont say exercise more, i walk, i have ten acres, i clean after dogs, poo and what ever they chewed apart , an orchard, horse pens to clean, water troughs to scrub, horses to brush. I dont over eat. I would love to get down to 165 , and at that weight I am not fat. I would never be a size 0 , my bones are bigger than that .


There was an article written... I will have to find it.. it is a woman who is a plus sized fitness instructor and people think she is lying when she tells them what she is physically capable of doing because you clearly can't be fat and physically active. I walk 5-8 KM per day and ride twice a week, and I don't eat fried foods (I honestly can't think of the last time I had french fries!), etc, and it is a slow battle even then. Sure, if I stepped it up with more exercise, it might go a little faster - but people still don't believe me when I tell them what I DO.


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## Stir crazy

Awwwww bull butter people, start making efforts and stop making excuses.


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## Golden Horse

Stir crazy said:


> Awwwww bull butter people, start making efforts and stop making excuses.


Excuse me???


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## Sahara

Stir crazy said:


> Awwwww bull butter people, start making efforts and stop making excuses.


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## Bluebird

Just have to disagree with you about being overweight can be the result of genetics, medical conditions etc. This is part of my day job. The only 'medical' result is in the use of certain types of steroids or medication but they do not, in themselves, cause morbid obesity - severe weight gain. In majority of people who are overweight it is due purely to the amount of calories they consume and nothing to do with genetics no matter what you read in Newspapers or see on TV. The cause of excessive calorie consumption is where there are sensitivities. Seriously overweight people do have an 'illness' in the broadest terms and it is a psychological one or part of an underlying medical condition e.g. Bader-Lewis Syndrome, Cushings disease, PCOS, Diabetes which makes weight gain easy and weight loss hard. However, the cause of the weight gain is genuinely down to consumption of calories and nothing else. (Please note, I am not including weight caused by build up of excessive fluid as that is not classed as obesity). Anyone who is overweight, and I include myself, struggles on a daily basis with their body image. Overweight people have to put up with stigma, cruel and inappropriate comments and being told constantly "You're fat!" Rather than shaking people out of it, it tends to make people even more inward looking and the result is a vicious circle where you seek comfort and actually crave ...high fat/carbohydrate- cakes, chococlate, fries, fast food. You try to diet and what do you see on TV? Cookery programmes, the latest 'celebrity diet' whereby the 'celebrity' is already a stick insect and has the financial backing to employ a chef, weight trainer and if they are promotoing a specific diet, they get all the stuff for FREE! The whole 'fat fighters' issue makes me totally sick and socitey as a whole treat overweight people absolutely terribly making the process of losing weight for some people, almost impossible. All I will say is that "Do not judge other people...You do not know them or their story". To all of us out there who have a weight issue, we have to live with our own demons without other people adding to them.


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## waresbear

Once you understand how food works, how your body processes certain foods and how to boost your metabolism, it becomes crystal clear how to achieve the body weight you want. Is it easy? Not by a long shot! Is it worth the effort? Most definitely! After awhile, it just becomes second nature, you don't eat certain things, your body craves the endorphins of metabolism boosting exercise and you feel spectacular in a fit body.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlueSpark

> is genuinely down to consumption of calories and nothing else


If we are going to over simplify; calories in(+), plus calories out(-) equals body weight. if all the fat people would just eat less they would all be fine.



> Just have to disagree with you about being overweight can be the result of genetics, medical conditions etc


I dont agree at all. Is it an excuse? No. But genetics and medical conditions have an effect. I have hypothyroidism, which slows my metabolism. My family all has a tendency of being over weight. I also have been fighting with arthritis in both knees since 16, and a reoccuring shoulder problem since 18.

i eat healthy, probably 95% vegetarian, tons of fruits and veggies, only lean proteins, limited carbs, avoid wheat, dairy, sugar and anything processed. I eat about 1200 calories a day. I ride 2 days a week(4 days a week in the summer, fast rides of 10+ miles), bike, hike, walk, jog, kayak and do yoga. some form of excercise an hour + per day. I'm over weight.
my cousin has a fast metabolism, a family prodisposed to be thin and no arthritis. she is 100#, eats 1800 calories a day and excercises the same amount.

if genetics and health problems have nothing to do with weight, then do explain the difference between my cousin and I.


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## Golden Horse

The thing that always gets me in these discussions, we as horse people are always happy to recognize that different horses have different metabolisms, hard keepers and easy keepers are very familiar to all of us. It's just the same as people, easy keepers, hard keepers, fast burners, quick burners. 

While of course I accept the very simple, calories in balance with calories out, different formulas are needed for different people.

My balance isn't achieved simply by counting calories, I have to watch the make up of my diet, I know that 'bad carbs' are the ones that cause me issues, but a high protein, moderate fat, low carb diet makes me lose weight the best.

My husband though can't lose weight on that, he needs carbs, so he does better on simple calorie counting.


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## Bluebird

I speak in very broad generic terms but no matter what type of diet you follow, no matter what type of metabolism you have, if you consume more calories than *your body needs*, the result is weight gain. 100% agree with everyone who says 'one size does not fit all' in relation to diet. Totally correct so if you need to diet then you have to follow one which works for you and your body. I could start and quote research, give examples of various underlying chronic medical conditions which do predispose (not CAUSE) certain people to gain weight. And yes, there are some people who are restricted in movement through no fault of their own which limits exercise. However, this forum is not appropriate to go into that amount of detail and individual cases. At the end of the day, if we are overweight, we need to look at what we are eating. You can live on salads, fruit, vegetables and still put on weight - because they still contain calories and it is down to the amount you eat versus your bodys ability to break things down into useful byproducts. Any 'calories' the body can't use is stored as fat. Regardless of all the advice, information etc there is out there about weight and dieting and weightloss, the only person who can ensure that we lose weight or stay the way we are is us. For ordinary people who don't have access to personal trainers, personal cooks and chefs or freebie diet products (because we're not famous), weightloss is down to sheer will power. I make no bones about it, it is really, really hard to lose weight....and I am now just off to Waitrose ( a psoh grocery shop in the UK) to buy their New York Vanilla Cheesecake ( made with double cream) which is divine and they don't put the number of calories on the portion size which to me means IT'S CALORIE FREE...LOL


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## Joe4d

Yeh my last 50 mile endurance ride was pretty rough on General Beauregard. I finally decided I needed to do something about my weight.
So I bought a bigger horse. 
Then stopped at Hooters on the way home. Mmmmm chicken wings and fried pickles.


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## Golden Horse

Bluebird said:


> and I am now just off to Waitrose ( a psoh grocery shop in the UK)


SNOB :rofl::rofl:

Didn't read the food description, *SIGH* I put on weight just reading the description!!


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## Delfina

Bluebird said:


> Just have to disagree with you about being overweight can be the result of genetics, medical conditions etc. This is part of my day job. The only 'medical' result is in the use of certain types of steroids or medication but they do not, in themselves, cause morbid obesity - severe weight gain.


Wrong 

Want to watch a person blow up like a balloon? Massive doses of steroids will do it. I often am put on steroids due to a medical condition and even though part of the reason is FOR weight gain, my Dr's are very careful to monitor how fast I am gaining weight. I am on a very specific diet, the only thing that changed was the meds and I packed on 40lbs in 2 months. May not seem like much but at a very petite build I went up about 5 clothing sizes.


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## Bluebird

Delfina said:


> Wrong
> 
> Want to watch a person blow up like a balloon? Massive doses of steroids will do it. I often am put on steroids due to a medical condition and even though part of the reason is FOR weight gain, my Dr's are very careful to monitor how fast I am gaining weight. I am on a very specific diet, the only thing that changed was the meds and I packed on 40lbs in 2 months. May not seem like much but at a very petite build I went up about 5 clothing sizes.


Read my post properly! You have just said yourself that the reason for medication was *weight gain* and you also said diet. Diet is not always about weight loss - diet also refers to what you eat. So actually I am correct. I also stated that my comments cannot be used in the context of individual cases otherwise we could be here for a year and a day. I am speaking in very general terms about calories, weight gain and weight loss.


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## waresbear

Metabolism means muscle, the more you have of it, the more calories your body requires to sustain itself. Unfortunately as we age, we lose muscle mass, at a rate of 5% every few years after age 40. So, you must build that muscle mass, ergo, spend time in the pain zone, no other way, sorry. You want results? They don't come for free.


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