# Tips on the seat, posture etc, please (walk, jog, Western)



## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

IMO, the trainer is asking her to do things that seem a bit above her level. OR she is sacrificing good equitation to control the horse better. But the evidence points more to the former. 

She does have a chair seat, but I think it's because her stirrups are too short to give her some added security. Really, 40 minutes a week isn't enough riding time to develop muscles for a good balanced seat. I recommend she rides more


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I wish you would have kept the original audio so we could hear what was being said...

I am not an expert so take everything I say lightly.

That saddle is flapping around SO much.. I don't think it is a good fit at all (this is an FYI...)

As a rider, she seems balanced.. she isn't tense or tipping around. The slight chair seat likely comes from the position of the fenders... most are located slightly infront so you'd be working against the leather if you pulled your leg back into correct aligned position.

Her arms aren't rigid, she's not taking them with her. They look fine. Western doesn't ride with contact so there isn't a line from bit through to elbow.. the horse is reaching into the bridle but sometimes needs more leg which is likely why the trainer is saying "get him into the bridle."

Her toe is pointed down, which may mean that she is posting from her toes, instead of stretching her legs down around the horse and posting from the horse's forward momentum. When a horse jogs, usually the rider doesn't have enough momentum to post as high as she is.. if that makes sense. The jog is flatter than the trot (typically.) The flatter the gait, the less thrust. 

Now to answer your actual question.... sometimes we need to learn to ride effectively before we learn to ride pretty.

Some people, like myself, did it backwards.. and thus have all of these bad habits from trying to be 'perfectly aligned' instead of getting the horse going how you want and then tweaking.

But it can be done the other way too. If you focus on body position first, then likely the rider won't develop bad habits as easily I suppose. It depends on your personal belief on how you want to learn. There are positives and negatives to each.

Now if the trainer isn't giving ANY feedback.. I'd talk with them and let them know that you would like to know what she can work on, etc.

Sometimes they don't give feedback because it can be overwhelming to the student, or it's just their teaching style.

Bottom line... if you don't like what you're paying for then say something or find someone else.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

How tall is she? Depending on her height, the saddle & the horse, getting her legs down and around may not be an option.

Some western saddles determine your thigh position for you. Our Circle Y Mojave sticks my thighs into a weird position, and I either accept it or have painful knees...which is why I gave up using that saddle ages ago. My daughter, OTOH, won't use any other saddle...:?

BTW - western riding is not dressage. There is no requirement in western riding to have your heels under your hip.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

disastercupcake said:


> IMO, the trainer is asking her to do things that seem a bit above her level. OR she is sacrificing good equitation to control the horse better. But the evidence points more to the former.
> 
> She does have a chair seat, but I think it's because her stirrups are too short to give her some added security. Really, 40 minutes a week isn't enough riding time to develop muscles for a good balanced seat. I recommend she rides more


Thanks. She can't ride more than this at this time.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I wish you would have kept the original audio so we could hear what was being said...
> 
> I am not an expert so take everything I say lightly.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for elaborating. 

My daughter feels she's learned a lot in terms of being more effective, and in many ways is a more assertive rider now. As long as she is not getting *really* bad habits ingrained, I can see it working on the effectiveness first, and on "pretty" later as being a good approach. 

Her goal is to be an effective rider, she says, but she misses the focus on her seat that the other barn provided. If she were to chose, though, she'd choose effective over pretty right fornow. Would be nice to have both types of feedback, but you are right, maybe it would be too overwhelming.

I'll ask the instructor at what point she normally starts giving equitation type feedback.

I just wanted to make sure she isn't terribly off track, and I really appreciate this forum for that.

Here's the video with the audio, for those who are interested. Some of the time the trainer is talking to another rider. I tried to cut it out and only leave the parts with my daughter's audio, but youtube editor wasn't cooperating.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

bsms said:


> How tall is she? Depending on her height, the saddle & the horse, getting her legs down and around may not be an option.
> 
> Some western saddles determine your thigh position for you. Our Circle Y Mojave sticks my thighs into a weird position, and I either accept it or have painful knees...which is why I gave up using that saddle ages ago. My daughter, OTOH, won't use any other saddle...:?
> 
> BTW - western riding is not dressage. There is no requirement in western riding to have your heels under your hip.


Thanks.

She's "tall for her age", but I have no clue how tall she actually is. :lol: She's a couple of inches shorter than her trainer, and the trainer is short for an adult. 

I just want to make sure she is not getting into some terrible habits in terms of using her body effectively, and that any obvious issues are corrected, either by the trainer, or by me via this forum. Though I try to stay out of it and not "teach" her, as I don't have a good horsey eye.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

horselessmom said:


> Thank you so much for elaborating.
> 
> My daughter feels she's learned a lot in terms of being more effective, and in many ways is a more assertive rider now. As long as she is not getting *really* bad habits ingrained, I can see it working on the effectiveness first, and on "pretty" later as being a good approach.
> 
> ...


Much better with the audio . I like how her trainer talks with her, explaining things just enough so she isn't being confusing.

Your daughter seems like a very effective rider for her level. Her leg is nice and solid most of the time. 

Looking forward to her next riding update!


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Much better with the audio . I like how her trainer talks with her, explaining things just enough so she isn't being confusing.
> 
> Your daughter seems like a very effective rider for her level. Her leg is nice and solid most of the time.
> 
> Looking forward to her next riding update!


Thank you for the reassurance. I like the instructor because she's so positive and encouraging. Good to know that it is acceptable to teach being effective before teaching form.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"she misses the focus on her seat that the other barn provided"

I've been making the switch over from English/Australian saddles to a western saddle since Thanksgiving. Something that is increasingly obvious is that a western saddle tree allows more options in what is "correct" in a seat. The saddle tree extends further back and covers a much larger area, so the PSI of any rider action is reduced. The bad news is less feel of the horse by the rider. The good news is less feel of the rider by the horse.








​ 
Want to ride with your feet forward and your spine straight? Do that with Mia in an Aussie saddle, and she'll slow her trot to a light jog to save her back. Do that in a western saddle...and she did a fast trot for a mile home, then cantered around the arena.

The saddle my daughter uses locks your thigh at a particular angle. I dislike it. My daughter loves it. But she stays balanced on Trooper, and Trooper is happy, and the horse stays between her and the ground even when the cinch strap comes undone while cantering down a trail...so how 'wrong' is it?

I asked a question about western riding in this thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/weight-stirrups-western-riding-yes-no-333226/

The answer was largely...it depends. If you look at western riders cutting cattle, roping, barrel racing, trail riding, performing western pleasure, etc, there are a LOT of valid 'seats'. Weight in stirrup or barely touching. Heels down or foot level. Heel under hip or heel out front. Contact with lower leg (impossible in some western saddles and a bit funky in any western saddle I've tried) or no contact with lower leg except for a cue.

When I was taking lessons, I asked my fellow students what the cues were to ask a horse to canter. I had read several books on dressage, and expected an answer about put this leg here, that leg there, make a circular motion with your inside hipbone, adjust the outside rein like so, etc...and instead, after everyone looked puzzled for a moment, one lady replied, "Kick harder?"

If a person want to do something specific - roping, or barrel racing - then western riders, like English, can discuss at length just how to get the job done or why they like to do X instead of Y, or y instead of z. If you go to the barrel racing sub-forum, for example, you can find detailed discussions about 18 different bits for different horses. But for general purpose riding, it seems to boil down to: Is he doing what you want? Are you happy? Is your horse happy? If you have 3 yeses...then enjoy!

My daughter and her horse, on one of the few shots where her feet were briefly in the stirrups...and with the cinch still attached (  ):​ 







​


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## eeo11horse (Jun 22, 2012)

Not sure if someone mentioned this or not but when she is asking the horse to give she need to keep her arms in place. Right now she's bringing her whole arm back, it should be more subtle. However I like how she releases when the pony gives his/her face.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

No matter what type of tack you are using, a balanced seat is a balanced seat. English saddle, western saddle, aussie saddle, no saddle - it makes no difference. A balanced seat means your body is in alignment so that your seat is independent of your hands and legs. In this position, you are able to give clear signals to your horse and stay out of her way. You are also in a position to stay as secure as possible should your horse make a sudden, unexpected movement. 

If you cannot achieve a balanced position in the saddle you are using I would venture a guess that the saddle does not fit you or, and this is more likely, it is a poorly made saddle.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Sahara said:


> No matter what type of tack you are using, a balanced seat is a balanced seat. English saddle, western saddle, aussie saddle, no saddle - it makes no difference...


I strongly disagree. There are a variety of seats, varying with tack and one's goal. Thus a jumper does not use the same seat at a cutter, because the tack and goal differ. A cutter who used the same approach as a jumper would not get a good or even decent performance out of his horse. A jumper using the approach of a cutter would be off balance for jumping. Neither uses the same approach as a barrel racer.

English saddle tree:










Western saddle tree:










Since the tree is reasonably rigid, the ideal is to have your weight so the pressure is distributed evenly. But since they are different shapes, that can result in a different position.

In addition to the tree itself, the 'ground' of a western saddle will influence the rider's position. I like a fairly flat western saddle seat:










The western saddle my daughter likes is quite different:










We ride with a different position in part because we like different saddles, and they just do not ride the same. And neither rides like my Australian saddle:










And those 3 ride different from my English saddle:










The saddle is an interface that distributes weight on the horse's back. They do not do so identically, and thus cannot be ridden balanced in an identical position.

Further, riding is about motion, not sitting still. So the desired motion and behavior of the horse changes how you should ride. If your horse is likely to make sudden stops, your best position would not be a dressage position - but then, a horse who suddenly slams on the brakes without being asked won't do well in dressage. But if Mia notices a rattlesnake on our path, I'm quite happy to deal with HER deciding to put on the brakes. She can consult with me later...:?

MY western saddle allows me a lot of freedom in leg placement. My daughter's allows none. Neither one distributes weight like an English saddle does, and neither allows the close contact with the lower leg than an English or even Australian design does.

None is right or wrong, but they are different.

http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/in...ddle-fit-rules-regarding-the-shoulder-blades/

http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/in...addle-fit-western-compared-to-english-part-1/

http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/in...addle-fit-western-compared-to-english-part-3/


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Getting back to THIS GIRL. and HER SEAT . . . .

I do not see a real chair seat. She is actually about as well aligned as she can get in that saddle. It is much too big for her, and as Sky pointed out, does not seem to fit the horse either, judging by its flapping.

Personally, I think your daughter has a great start and looks very good for so little time in the saddle. I think she would be more suited to English style riding. Her hands were pretty darn steady, but the instruction was telling here to pull back, and I have to disagree with that.

She is over posting (too high) but I think it's mostly tat saddle. She might do better to drop the stirrups altogether.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> Getting back to THIS GIRL. and HER SEAT . . . .
> 
> I do not see a real chair seat. She is actually about as well aligned as she can get in that saddle. It is much too big for her, and as Sky pointed out, does not seem to fit the horse either, judging by its flapping.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Tinyliny! I asked her and she says that some of the time she rides in a different saddle, which was the trainer's when she was a child, so I assume at least some of the time she has a better fit with the saddle. 

About the flapping--is it the saddle's fit, or the way it was put on? 

What makes you say that she's more suited to English riding? She wants to ride Western for now, and I find that the barn culture is much nicer in this barn than in the English barns here. 

What would you suggest she do with her arms instead of pulling them back? Why is she instructed to pull back? Why it is not a good thing?

Thanks!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

horselessmom said:


> About the flapping--is it the saddle's fit, or the way it was put on?
> 
> What makes you say that she's more suited to English riding? She wants to ride Western for now, and I find that the barn culture is much nicer in this barn than in the English barns here.
> 
> ...


It's the fit... it flaps like that because it is not balanced on the horse. The back is actually sticking up, which likely means it's too narrow on the horse's shoulders. 

As for the pulling back, I think it's referring to the softening of the horse to bring it "into the bridle"

Her way of teaching your daughter to do that is to pull her hands back.. instead of a different way (there are SO MANY ways of doing it, all with pluses and minuses... this is western so it's not my strong suit but one should never pull hands back towards belly button. It puts way too much pressure in the horse's mouth)


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think your daughter should ride where she enjoys it the most. I just thought she had a nice upright posture and good posting, but really, it should be all about having fun at this point. The horse is pretty nice, maintains a steady pace and seems to tolerate the saddle and the pull on the reins. 

yeah , pulling the rein back toward you is incorrect. it is better to lift the rein upward, or to shorten your rein if you need to tighten it. But, honestly, she's doing fine.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> It's the fit... it flaps like that because it is not balanced on the horse. The back is actually sticking up, which likely means it's too narrow on the horse's shoulders.
> 
> As for the pulling back, I think it's referring to the softening of the horse to bring it "into the bridle"
> 
> Her way of teaching your daughter to do that is to pull her hands back.. instead of a different way (there are SO MANY ways of doing it, all with pluses and minuses... this is western so it's not my strong suit but one should never pull hands back towards belly button. It puts way too much pressure in the horse's mouth)


Thanks! Daughter said that sometimes they use a different saddle. That's concerning that the saddle is not a good fit. I hope it isn't hurting the horse too much. 

So what you are saying, there are different ways to bring the horse into the bridle? 




tinyliny said:


> I think your daughter should ride where she enjoys it the most. I just thought she had a nice upright posture and good posting, but really, it should be all about having fun at this point. The horse is pretty nice, maintains a steady pace and seems to tolerate the saddle and the pull on the reins.
> 
> yeah , pulling the rein back toward you is incorrect. it is better to lift the rein upward, or to shorten your rein if you need to tighten it. But, honestly, she's doing fine.


Thanks! She's having fun with absolutely anything where horses are involved, and she's wants to eventually be more serious about riding. The only obstacle is the money right now, she's as serious as it gets even now. She'll be riding twice a month bareback with another instructor starting in the spring, and also doing more groundwork, but having more saddle time at the current barn is not currently an option. 

So I want to be more aware of how she's being taught, as I don't want her to be solidifying something wrong. 

Are there any youtube videos you can recommend about doing it upwards? Could it be that lifting upwards is a bit more advanced and she's not being taught it yet?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

horselessmom said:


> Thanks! Daughter said that sometimes they use a different saddle. That's concerning that the saddle is not a good fit. I hope it isn't hurting the horse too much.
> 
> So what you are saying, there are different ways to bring the horse into the bridle?
> 
> ...


Yes there are tons of different ways to bring the horses into the bridle, some better than others.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

I managed to get some of her loping on tape last week. I also watched more of her lesson and the other student *was* getting feedback on her seat and various reminders, like "heels down". The other student was more advanced / experienced and was riding a younger hose. So I think my daughter is not getting any feedback on her seat because the instructor wants her to focus on the steering right now. She does want to ask her instructor to give her more tips on her seat, so we will see how this goes.

Any tips on her lopes are appreciated. Thanks.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

There is more than one way to skin a cat: based on what has been said, it sounds like equitation isn't the first thing she focuses on. And I think that's fair--learn the basics (steering, whoa, go, etcetera) first, and critique everything else once you're secure.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Is it just me, or does posting in a western saddle just seem awkward? If the student is truly wanting to learn western riding, then shouldn't she be sitting the trot? 

It just looks like a weird combination of english and western to me, for the girl to be riding with a slack rein (western) and then posting (english). If she's going to be posting, then it almost seems like she should be riding with more contact. And if she's going to be riding on a slack rein, she should be sitting the trot?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Posting never looks wierd to me. it's just the easiest way to ride a trot, for both the hrose and the rider. lots of working cowboys post the trot.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> Is it just me, or does posting in a western saddle just seem awkward? If the student is truly wanting to learn western riding, then shouldn't she be sitting the trot?
> 
> It just looks like a weird combination of english and western to me, for the girl to be riding with a slack rein (western) and then posting (english). If she's going to be posting, then it almost seems like she should be riding with more contact. And if she's going to be riding on a slack rein, she should be sitting the trot?


They sit the trot in the lessons as well. They are taught both.  As far as I understand, while posting is not appropriate in a Western *show*, it is usually taught in Western riding lessons.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Horselessmom, she looks to have a nice secure seat though she is leaning pretty far back. Does your daughter know how to do situps? That will help to strengthen her core so she can stay with the horse instead of leaning so far behind 



trailhorserider said:


> Is it just me, or does posting in a western saddle just seem awkward? If the student is truly wanting to learn western riding, then shouldn't she be sitting the trot?
> 
> It just looks like a weird combination of english and western to me, for the girl to be riding with a slack rein (western) and then posting (english). If she's going to be posting, then it almost seems like she should be riding with more contact. And if she's going to be riding on a slack rein, she should be sitting the trot?


In short, no.

Posting is how you save a horse's back, and the rider's body. You can post a trot forever but you cannot sit a trot forever. You'd find yourself fatigued, or your horse's back fatigued. 

Also it's a good thing to learn how to post, even if it's not "western" (which actually it is, as tinyliny alluded to ranchers post, endurance riders post [which is middle ground, but regardless]) because it makes you an all around rider.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Horselessmom, she looks to have a nice secure seat though she is leaning pretty far back. Does your daughter know how to do situps? That will help to strengthen her core so she can stay with the horse instead of leaning so far behind
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks!

She was told to lean back and sit on her pockets when she started cantering, and she thinks this is how she's supposed to ride--no one has ever corrected this posture, other than me trying to gently suggest she doesn't lean back as much. But she knows I'm not a riding expert. :lol:

Now as she's newly interested in the posture, I'll try again.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> Is it just me, or does posting in a western saddle just seem awkward?...


Depends on the part of the country and the saddle design. There was a thread some years back on posting & western riding. Some parts of the country swore by posting in a western saddle, and other parts tended to swear at it.

We have 2 western saddles that see regular use. The Circle Y my daughter likes places your thigh closer to horizontal. It is tough to post well in that saddle. When I've tried it, I had to give up any hope of a balanced post and use my legs more like diagonal shock absorbers. The Clinton Anderson/Martin saddle I'm using now allows me to move my leg where I want, so I can get my heels under my center of gravity and post (or ride two point) without a problem.

When I took western lessons, I was not taught posting. The lady who gave my daughter lessons, an ex-barrel racer, did teach posting. 

However, because of the saddle design, my daughter looked very awkward. The angle of her thighs forced her to squeeze with her knees and thrust herself forward, which usually resulted in her heels going way back. In that saddle, and at her height, I don't think there was any other choice for her. I suspect she found it awkward too, because I almost never see her post any more - although she is taller now and can do a better job of it.

From some years back:










This was taken a couple of days ago. It was her own idea for how to practice cantering. Trooper dealt with it without a flicker...Mia would go ballistic if I tried it:










But notice the angle of her thighs, and where the stirrups are hanging. That is just the way that saddle is - and she refuses to use any other saddle. She has briefly tried my Australian saddle and the English ones...they fit her better, but it isn't "her" I guess.

But she is happy and Trooper considers her to be a minor deity, so who am I to complain?

BTW - "on your pockets" is something I heard a lot of when I was taking western lessons. It is 'right' for the design of a western saddle, since the weight-distributing tree extends well behind the cantle. It isn't required for general purpose riding, and I always lean forward at a canter because I learned using English and Australian saddles, where the tree ends at the cantle. Leaning forward also feels better to me when my horse goes fast, and my mare doesn't really believe in a slow canter... 

FWIW, this is my favorite video on cantering in a western style:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

horselessmom said:


> They sit the trot in the lessons as well. They are taught both.  As far as I understand, while posting is not appropriate in a Western *show*, it is usually taught in Western riding lessons.


Interesting guys! I have never known anyone who rides western to post. Well, I have a friend with an endurance saddle who posts, but I don't consider her riding "western" when she does that. She herself said she considers herself more of an english rider. 

I have never seen anyone riding in any western disciplines. (reining, cattle work, western pleasure, etc.) post. 

When someone wants to do riding across huge pastures or on the trail they can do whatever they feel is best.....and posting may be a part of that. But I never considered posting to be a part of western riding. It could be just me. Certainly I don't come from a show background and have had maybe 5 lessons in my whole life. I don't know how to post so I am always sitting the trot. :lol: But that is considered normal around here in a western saddle. It's probably a regional thing but I have never ever seen a western rider post.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bsms said:


> The Clinton Anderson/Martin saddle I'm using now allows me to move my leg where I want, so I can get my heels under my center of gravity and post (or ride two point) without a problem.


I am a bit jealous of you finding that saddle second-hand! I have always been intrigued by it. 

So how do you like it now that you've had a chance to ride in it a bit? Does it feel "western" other than the freedom of leg movement (which is a nice thing)?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

fftopic:​^^Off topic but...I like it a lot. My family all think the seat is too hard, but I don't like a lot of padding (and it isn't a real "hard seat"). I can do what I like with my legs, so I can slide them forward when I want, or have them underneath me. It has a level seat, so I can move my rump around if I wish. The saddle my daughter uses has a sharp rise to the front of the seat...not a good idea for men, IMHO.

More importantly, my mare does well in it. It is a bit too wide for her in the front, measured in a horizontal line, so I add a folded pony blanket (green in the picture) or the front half of a Wintec half-pad to it. It seems to free up her shoulders. From the first ride, she turns better in it than with my Australian-style saddle. And if I put my weight 'on my pockets', she doesn't care. She'll fast trot a mile with me sitting like that.

I'm very happy with the quality of the saddle.

I've always preferred a forward seat, and having lower leg contact is important in a forward seat. At first, this one seemed to prevent that - as with every other western saddle I've tried. But with a bit of adjustment in stirrup length, I can have contact with my calves. Not the way I can with an English saddle, but enough to make me comfortable.










I guess the bottom line for me is that Mia seems to work better with it. I kind of prefer an English or Australian design, but I can switch to make her happier. That is not a slam of any sort on English saddles BTW...a mare we sold a few years back seemed happier in an English saddle than western, and I will probably continue to ride Mia in an English saddle at times for MY fun...but mostly western, for her. :wink:​


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

I just wanted to say that I think it's awesome that you are so concerned/involved in your daughter's riding. When I was a kid, my mom would drop me off at the barn in the morning and pick me up in the evening. I could have been riding elephants all that time and she would have never known.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

horselessmom said:


> Thanks!
> 
> She was told to lean back and sit on her pockets when she started cantering, and she thinks this is how she's supposed to ride--no one has ever corrected this posture, other than me trying to gently suggest she doesn't lean back as much. But she knows I'm not a riding expert. :lol:
> 
> Now as she's newly interested in the posture, I'll try again.


The sitting back on pockets is fine, but the leaning of the upper body back.. is what I was primarily commenting on :thumbsup: Usually having a stronger core helps the rider to be able to keep upright without feeling like they're being thrown back or creeping forward onto their crotch.

She's a good little rider though


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> The sitting back on pockets is fine, but the leaning of the upper body back.. is what I was primarily commenting on :thumbsup: Usually having a stronger core helps the rider to be able to keep upright without feeling like they're being thrown back or creeping forward onto their crotch.
> 
> She's a good little rider though


Okay, got it! She thinks they are one and the same. She said that when she leans back like this it is easier to canter, so maybe yes, she's not strong enough to sit straighter. Her current trainer apparently commented once for her not to lean forward, so she's overcompensating + she feels it is more comfortable. :lol:


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## sparkoflife (Jul 8, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I wish you would have kept the original audio so we could hear what was being said...
> 
> I am not an expert so take everything I say lightly.
> 
> ...


I totally agree! My trainer would tell me I don't need to work so hard to post. Also, it seems like she pulls back on the horse or moves her hands around a lot. I don't know if the trainer is telling her to or not but like said above, western riding uses limited contact. If the horse gets to fast, do a quick half-halt but then leave the horses mouth alone. I'm not sure if she is a little bit nervous because the trainer isn't telling her if she's doing good or not. And just keep those heels down. But overall I'd say she's doing good.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

horselessmom said:


> Thanks, Tinyliny! I asked her and she says that some of the time she rides in a different saddle, which was the trainer's when she was a child, so I assume at least some of the time she has a better fit with the saddle.
> 
> About the flapping--is it the saddle's fit, or the way it was put on?
> 
> ...


I'm a little confused as to why her instructor has her posting then....as posting is not a western thing. Although...I WILL long trot my WP horses and post, but for western...she needs to learn to sit a jog. 

She is in a chair seat, as her thighs are up...she's not stretched down through her whole leg, and she needs to bring her leg back at he hip. Her thighs should be pointing more toward the ground. 

This is me on my WP horse I retired two years ago, and even in this pic....I could bring my leg back a tad more from the hip:










See how my hip to knee, then knee to foot is almost the same distance? This is what you want western, it's very close to a dressage leg.

Your daughter is cute as a button and love her upper body how straight and quiet it is. But if she wants to ride western, she needs to learn to sit the jog and not post. Many times that is the rider's downfall....not being able to sit a jog and sit it correctly.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> The sitting back on pockets is fine, but the leaning of the upper body back.. is what I was primarily commenting on :thumbsup: Usually having a stronger core helps the rider to be able to keep upright without feeling like they're being thrown back or creeping forward onto their crotch.
> 
> She's a good little rider though


 
You don't want to sit on your back pockets...it's a popular misconception with western. You WANT to be centered and balanced which means....so you can feel your seat bones (and part of your crotch....like a "triangle"), but not rolled further back. Her upper body is just fine....it's from the hip/seat and down. If she got her hips underneath and leg back...it would pretty much be perfect.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> I'm a little confused as to why her instructor has her posting then....as posting is not a western thing. Although...I WILL long trot my WP horses and post, but for western...she needs to learn to sit a jog.
> 
> She is in a chair seat, as her thighs are up...she's not stretched down through her whole leg, and she needs to bring her leg back at he hip. Her thighs should be pointing more toward the ground.
> 
> ...


Thanks! 

She does sit the jog. They do both in lessons. If her trainer tells them to post, they post. If they are told to sit the jog, they sit the jog. I think it is about 60% sitting jog, 40% posting right now. 

I can't get it on video until it is warmer, though! :lol:


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> You don't want to sit on your back pockets...it's a popular misconception with western. You WANT to be centered and balanced which means....so you can feel your seat bones (and part of your crotch....like a "triangle"), but not rolled further back. Her upper body is just fine....it's from the hip/seat and down. If she got her hips underneath and leg back...it would pretty much be perfect.


Interesting, thanks! Actually it was an English trainer, an eventer, who told her to sit on her pockets. I wonder if it was to just get her more secure in the beginning, when she was learning to canter. It was also said when she was cantering without stirrups on a lunge line. 

Thank you for the tips!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

horselessmom said:


> Thanks!
> 
> *She does sit the jog. They do both in lessons. If her trainer tells them to post, they post. If they are told to sit the jog, they sit the jog. I think it is about 60% sitting jog, 40% posting right now.*
> 
> I can't get it on video until it is warmer, though! :lol:


Gotcha!! When the instructor asks her to sit the jog, does she slow the horse down....and then bump her up to a trot for the posting trot?


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> Gotcha!! When the instructor asks her to sit the jog, does she slow the horse down....and then bump her up to a trot for the posting trot?


Honestly, no clue! :lol:

I'm actually not exactly sure what you are asking?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

horselessmom said:


> Interesting, thanks! *Actually it was an English trainer, an eventer, who told her to sit on her pockets.* I wonder if it was to just get her more secure in the beginning, when she was learning to canter. It was also said when she was cantering without stirrups on a lunge line.
> 
> Thank you for the tips!


Ok, that explains it, popular misconception by instructors from other disciplines. Does she get lessons from a western instructor? She will actually be more secure with a balanced seat and not sitting that far back. Sitting on your back pockets too far causes the leg to go forward and the rider is "behind" the motion. You then have no "anchor" to stay balanced....the anchor being on your seat bones and the leg right underneath you.

Here's my trainer showing my horse....notice how he's pretty much lined up in a straight line from his shoulder down:


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Oh, I also remembered that they somewhat follow Equine Canada Western levels program, and the ability to post the trot is required for level 1.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^learning to post is a good thing for anyone to learn, so that's awesome she knows how! I can't wait to see more vids, when the weather gets better! I live iin MA and it's just too darn cold to ride....LOL.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> Ok, that explains it, popular misconception by instructors from other disciplines. Does she get lessons from a western instructor? She will actually be more secure with a balanced seat and not sitting that far back. Sitting on your back pockets too far causes the leg to go forward and the rider is "behind" the motion. You then have no "anchor" to stay balanced....the anchor being on your seat bones and the leg right underneath you.
> 
> Here's my trainer showing my horse....notice how he's pretty much lined up in a straight line from his shoulder down:


Thanks! She's had the Western trainer for almost a year now. But that tidbit of information she saved from her English trainer (she had English lessons for a year before switching to Western). 

She prefers Western now.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

There is a lot of variation in western riding. If you ride Western Pleasure, being on your pockets is wrong. If you do not...well, lets just say a lot of western riders say it is right. Based on the design of the saddle tree, I'm not sure how being 'on your pockets' is wrong...unless your horse has a history of sometimes jumping forward. In that case (mine), a forward body tilt seems more comfortable...particularly since my personal background was riding a forward seat.

A lot depends on what you are doing or about to do, your horse and your saddle. I don't remember who is in this screen capture, but he was in a top level reining competition:










This was the old style western riding, in Texas in 1907:










The saddle in the B&W picture probably had a 6" cantle, which would be huge on a modern saddle.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> ^learning to post is a good thing for anyone to learn, so that's awesome she knows how! I can't wait to see more vids, when the weather gets better! I live iin MA and it's just too darn cold to ride....LOL.


She still rides. I just don't stay in the barn long enough to videotape. :lol: Even my enthusiasm has its limits. :lol:


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

horselessmom said:


> Thanks! She's had the Western trainer for almost a year now. But that tidbit of information she saved from her English trainer (she had English lessons for a year before switching to Western).
> 
> She prefers Western now.


That's great......she has the makings of being an all-around rider....western and hunt seat. I was taught both when I started 52 years ago, then showed all-around (hunt seat and western) for many years. Did dressage and saddleseat too! I believe in being a well-rounded rider and your daugther is so young with a big future ahead of her to get experience in all disciplines.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

bsms said:


> There is a lot of variation in western riding. If you ride Western Pleasure, being on your pockets is wrong. If you do not...well, lets just say a lot of western riders say it is right. Based on the design of the saddle tree, I'm not sure how being 'on your pockets' is wrong...unless your horse has a history of sometimes jumping forward. In that case (mine), a forward body tilt seems more comfortable...particularly since my personal background was riding a forward seat.
> 
> A lot depends on what you are doing or about to do, your horse and your saddle. I don't remember who is in this screen capture, but he was in a top level reining competition:
> 
> ...


The top pic of the reiner looks like he was in a run down before a sliding stop. They DO get on their back pockets in a "driving seat" to drive the horse forward in the run down.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

in the lope video, she is leaning too far back. in order to hold herself in a position that is behind vertical balance, she has to make her core muscles rigid. she becomes rigid, including her shoulders and elbows, and she is moving as a "block". in the very slow motion you can see how none of her angles (hip or knee) open or close to match the movement. Therefor SHE moves, back and forth, as if she is made of wood. 
she is behind the motion, so you will see , again in the slo mo, that she is coming down with her butt against the cantle, just as the horse is coming up. 
If she were with the motion, she'd be down into the cantle right as it changed from downward to upward movement. To do that, a rider must follow from the HIP, with the upper body straight up, and the shoulder and elbow allowed to flex a bit so that the forearm floats at the same angle over the ground, whether the horse is in the upward angled part of the canter, or the downward. (the canter having a bit of a rocking horse motion)

One thing that has helped me when cantering seated, is to think about the downward beat of the canter. it's a three beat cycle, with a moment of suspension, and then three beat, and suspension. So, the third beat is when you horse is landing on his leading foot, and has the most downhill oriented position. thus, the rider will have the must "uphill" (as a tree grwoing on a slope always goes vertical). but her leg and seat must go down with the saddle and the horse. So, I say count the beats, 1, 2, 3 with 3 being the last one, the leading leg hitting the ground, and really think "1, 2, Down, . . 1, 2, Down, . . ." . With this "down" thought, think of your own knee as going down , as if you were going to kneel down, and your pubic bone going down with the saddle. Then, a split second later, just LET the horse carry you upward.

For some reason, thinking about this downward beat , instead of the upward beat, can help a person feel adhesion to the saddle during the seated canter.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Take this with a huge steaming cup of FWIW, but it helped me with cantering:



maura said:


> Riding the canter correctly and well in a full seat is difficult, and many more riders do it badly than do it well. As Allison stated above, it requires a degree of abdominal fitness, as well  as correct position, relaxation and a good understanding of gait mechanics and how the horse's back moves. That's out of reach for a lot of recreational riders. I would much rather see an elementary or intermediate rider cantering in half seat, allowing the horse to move freely, than someone attempting and failing a full following seat and punishing the horse's back in the process.
> 
> There is nothing inherently insecure about riding the canter in half-seat or two point as long as the rider is in balance.


http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/riding-canter-half-seat-120340/

That is from an English riding thread, but most of my riding until recently was done in either an English or an Australian saddle, and I preferred riding with a forward seat. I also have a stiff lower back from an injury shortly after I took up riding. And I found it very hard to truly follow the motion of the horse's back so that I was cantering with the horse instead of "bouncing the canter".

So I started entering a canter in a half seat, and riding it that way. My 1/2 seat slowly progressed, depending on the day and my ability, to a 5/8 seat, a 3/4 seat, etc. In truth, even now in a western saddle, I probably enter the canter in a 3/4 seat, so to speak...and sometimes stay there.

For western riding, that is utterly untraditional. But it works for me, and it saves my horse's back. Some days, when my lower back is OK, I even ride the canter in a full seat. But I honestly think many people do not ride a full, deep seat canter well enough to allow the horse to use its back to the best of its ability.

No REAL western instructor would make that recommendation, but it worked for us.

A big part of what has attracted me to western riding is that it generally allows a rider and horse to do what they need to do to get the job done. With my background and my limitations, that was a good way to ease myself into a canter, particularly since my mare was trying to figure it all out at the same time I was! I didn't want her to dislike cantering, so I did what I needed to canter without hurting her and we've worked our way slowly forward ever since.

Also, on the same thread, Allison posted this good video - English riding, but so what?


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

bsms said:


> Take this with a huge steaming cup of FWIW, but it helped me with cantering:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is a wealth of information. Thank you. Her limitation right now is that she only rides once a week, and it is during her lesson. In her English lessons a year ago she rode canter in half-seat only. (Of course, pretty much everyone here told me it was a wrong thing to do. I'm starting to learn that there are just as many opinions as their riders. But I appreciate everyone's feedback as it helps me to slowly learn.)

I'm going to get her some Centered Riding lessons in the summer, she really wants to, but not more than 4 or 8, in addition to her regular weekly lessonss, and maybe she can do a half lease when she's 13, in a year and a half time. 

So of course she's learning much slower than a kid who can have a lesson and practice on their own or on a leased horse, but she's still learning, and having fun, and hopefully more riding opportunities will open up in the future.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ there is nothing wrong with riding in half seat if you are hunt seat and riding jump courses. The problem with cantering in half seat/2 point (if you aren't a hunt seat rider or jumper doing courses)...is that your SEAT and SEAT BONES are one of the very important aids. Aids are seat, legs, and hands....and I guess you could add voice. But if you LOSE your seat communication, you are left with only TWO aids left....hands and leg. So if you have terrible hands and an unstable/ineffective leg....you are basically screwed.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_So if you have terrible hands and an unstable/ineffective leg....you are basically screwed._"

Well, I've got a steady leg and adequate hands, and my cantering needs don't rise to the level of showing. What it DOES give an inexperienced or stiff rider - such as myself - is the ability to canter with a horse who is not impeded by the pounding of the rider's butt hitting the saddle out of synch with the horse.

And as you canter, you can feel the horse's rhythm and then work into it to whatever extent your body and ability allow.

The riding world I inhabit isn't filled with excellent trainers or even folks with extensive training. Most of the riders I know or that I see at a local stable are recreational riders who may or may not take lessons and who will never compete in regional or national or probably anything.

And like Maura, "_I would much rather see an elementary or intermediate rider cantering in half seat, allowing the horse to move freely, than someone attempting and failing a full following seat and punishing the horse's back in the process._" The western saddle is a forgiving design. It covers a multitude of sins by distributing weight (and impact) over a large area. But even so, I've seen enough unhappy horses cantering with bouncing riders to think a half seat can be a good way to learn the rhythm of the horse.

The lesson horses I've seen teaching riders to ride are little concerned with seat aids. They would be content with a forgiving seat - one that doesn't punish their backs. I'm 180 lbs in the shower, and my largest horse is 900 lbs. When I ride, I owe it to her to think about how I can be gentle on her back. Proper riding sometimes requires a rider to admit his own inadequacies, and to adjust accordingly for the horse's sake.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

this rider, at 11.5 years of age and maybe 80 lbs ?, is not going to punish the school horse's back by sitting the canter. Either sitting the canter or half seating, you still need to follow with your hips. Boarding up the body will never work.

I do agree with Maura for riders like me; heavy and not so good at absorbing a big canter. it's better for the horse, and better for me, to do half seat.
My problem is that I should be able to do both , at will, instead of only do the one because I am incapable of doing the other.

This young girl is small, flexible and young, and the horse has a tiny little lope. she should be able to sit that canter just fine, then do half seat, then sit. but, know how to do both , at will, not by default.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

trailhorserider said:


> I have never seen anyone riding in any western disciplines. (reining, cattle work, western pleasure, etc.) post.


Posting in a western saddle is inappropriate at a _show_, but most actual working cowboys will spend a good portion of their day posting. I post all the time, especially on Rafe. His trot is so big that it wears me out to sit it for more than 10-15 minutes at a time. Dobe, on the other hand, is so smooth that it's more of a workout to _post_ than it is to sit LOL.


Anyway, back on topic. She's doing very well. As others have said, she's leaning back, but the balance and strength to sit straight for the lope will come in time. In spite of her being a little behind the motion and a little out of balance, she seems to have a good seat. She's not bouncing hard or flopping like so many riders do.

Truthfully, I think the biggest problem is that the saddle doesn't fit her very well. It's forcing her thighs and legs forward into a pretty bad chair seat which, in turn, is making the leaning back issue worse.

Most western saddles seem to be designed to force the rider into a chair seat by keeping their legs swung way out in front of them...making it almost impossible to actually align their body. Learning to ride correctly in a saddle like that can be done, but it's an uphill battle.

Here's a couple pictures to explain what I mean. This is my old roping saddle that I rode a few years ago. It has the fenders hung really far forward, which is typical of roping saddles. I could get my legs underneath me, but it was a massive workout and I was always fighting the saddle.









Then, I got my ranch saddle with the fenders hung a little farther back. It made having a correct seat so much easier.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_But, know how to do both, at will, not by default._"

The point was not to use a half-seat instead of sitting a canter, but to use a half-seat to feel the rhythm of the horse so you can move WITH the horse while sitting.

My DIL claims, falsely, to be 5 foot even. She's probably 95 lbs. But when she was LEARNING to sit the trot, she pounded Trooper's back hard enough in a western saddle that Trooper clearly preferred cantering with my 180 lbs in an English or Australian saddle.

The problem I had was learning the motion. One of those mechanical horse things would have been nice, so I could feel the motion without souring my horse.

Where I took lessons, the horses were pretty sour on the whole cantering thing. And I couldn't blame them, because their 'reward' for cantering was to immediately have a bouncing rider who HOPEFULLY didn't also yank on the reins. Since I didn't want to sour my horse, and since she has a sensitive back, I used the half-seat to transition myself to sitting the canter. And I can sit the canter if I wish now...but I realized while riding Mia a few minutes ago that I enjoyed it more in a "3/4 seat" - rump lightly touching the saddle, but much of my weight in my heels and thighs.

It was just a suggestion, since the OP's daughter has ridden English and since I found it an easy way to develop a feel for a canter. I also like riding in a half-seat and do it some pretty much every ride. But it is not traditional western riding in any sense of the phrase!

"_Most western saddles seem to be designed to force the rider into a chair seat by keeping their legs swung way out in front of them_"

That describes my daughter...5'2" riding in a 16" saddle that forces the thighs to be darn near horizontal. But does she listen to Dad? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! - About as much as I listened to MY parents at 16! What is that saying about payback? :wink:


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