# Riding difficult horses?



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Depend what you think the difficulty is? Rearing, bucking, bolting, balking? What?


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

It's not the _naughty_ naughty ones like that. I'm talking about the ones that would like pin your leg against the rail and yank the reins out of your hands or ignore leg cues/reins


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Being soft to leg cues and soft to rein cues are basic. This horse sounds very sour and as if he'd been ridden by poor riders who didn't know how to ask for and reward correct behavior. 

If it was me I'd be working with this horse on the ground first, getting him flexible and responsive there before I got on him.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

sayazeleznik said:


> It's not the _naughty_ naughty ones like that. I'm talking about the ones that would like pin your leg against the rail and yank the reins out of your hands or ignore leg cues/reins


I think I can imagine the type. 

Try to make sure your cues are clear. If you are needing to go straight - sit balanced and if the horse drifts to the right, push back with your right leg. To the left? Push back with the left.

If the horses you're riding want to rub you into the rails, you can anticipate that. Be balanced. Use your outside leg (the one closest to the rail), and be ready to take *a little* more inside rein.

If the horse(s) are pulling the reins out of your hands, first check that you aren't holding too much rein. Practice having lighter contact and manipulating the reins in your fingers to make them longer and shorter.

If the horse(s) are ignoring your cues, focus again on being really balanced and using really clear cues. Then, give them a few seconds to respond before tensing up and maybe muddying the message.

Am I anywhere near guessing what you are dealing with?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You need to go back to basics and get horse moving off you legs, Ditto for the pulling of reins out of your hands. Don't pull against the hrose, as you are never going to outpull ahorse, instead, get him soft in his entire boy, hold when he pulls, and use as much legs as it takes to get him to soft in your hands. Sounds like a spoiled horse, that has been l allowed to get his way.
Has he been in a dude string?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

How much work has this horse done in the past and what sort of work?
You need to be able to differentiate between a horse that's behaving in that way because he lacks proper training and so doesn't know how to react to the cues and a horse that's just being plain naughty and challenging you every inch of the way
Which 'box' he fits in decides how best to deal with him


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

Thank you thats really helpful!!


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

Yes exactly actually! He's been a child's schooling horse for many many years and has developed the habit of just pulling the kids off with the reins so that they can't pull on him anymore, and he gets really ****y and angry when you use too much leg or too much rein and will then take off with you or drag your leg into the fence


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

You're tips are going to come in handy thank you so much!!


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

wow you're dead on, he was put in a line of horses just following one another for a long time and he got to the point where he found it easier to pull the kids off with the reins before they could yank on his face. He gets very ornery and snobby if you use too much leg and will take off with you and/or pin your leg up against a fence and ignore all other cues. Your advice is really going to come in handy thank you !!


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

He has done a lot of work actually, he was a schooly that went with a woman as her college horse and was put back into schooling. He has found it easiest to pull the kids off with the reins before they have a chance to pull on his face. He's just become sour and naughty over the years... I don't know if it's relevant but could discomfort be causing some of this? He has had awful arthritis for many years now and his joints don't heal as fast anymore. At one point he actually had a cast on.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Good luck.
Horses that have learned bad habits, like running through cues have to be ridden in such away taht makes them unsuccessful in doing them, and for thier actions to have some consequences, making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.

Depending on whether they have ever been taught right responses or not, you might wish to go back to ground work. In the end though, who ever rides the horse, must make running the rider into stuff, jerking reins out of hands, ect, unsuccessful and also in the case of running a rider into stuff-uncomfortable

Horses are trained each and every time we handle or ride them, either for the plus or negative, as they are creatures of habit, with habits becoming ingrained, if rewarded,. Does not matter if the reward was intended or not
If the horse got out of work, doing what was asked, by little kids not able to control her, she now has those habits that need to be eliminated,before good habits can replace them


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sure, pain should always be eliminated as a cause first.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm not sure what to suggest if he's got such bad arthritis.
There's no doubt that a lot of his problems are rooted in him getting work sour from being used in lessons and the sort of crocodile style trail riding some places do but how much of his attitude is caused by pain/discomfort?
The rein grabbing could make him a candidate for 'grass reins' - we used them on some ponies we had that had learnt to snatch and run or snatch and graze
The other things might be best dealt with by starting from scratch again with lunging and long reining/drive lining, keeping working sessions to small bites several times a day rather than long tiring one's where he gets bored, aching and resentful but really any work needs to be subject to a good vet assessment on his soundness to do it


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

There are far more experienced horse people than me who have given their advice, so I won't add to it. However, I will say that when we first got our Arab for my daughter, who was only 11 at the time, he would jerk the reins out of her hand. Not sure where he learned that, but she may have been guilty of pulling on his mouth a little at first, because he was pretty forward compared to the lesson horses she was used to. However, with gentle hands and consistent riding, he just stopped doing it. They have a great bond now, and she can get him to do pretty much anything. It's possible he was just testing his limits, or it's possible it was a trick he'd learned to get out of working, but she just ignored it pretty much, and kept him moving at all times so he stopped doing it. Just so you know it's possible to get them over that kind of behavior, as long as it is not being reinforced by other riders. And even so, horses quickly figure out who's riding them and will change their behavior accordingly.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

He has bad arthritis , must have missed that.Pain is going to cause a negative reaction to any horse, asked to work, and adds a whole new dimension
Okay , read that post. Arthritis is never cured. It is a progressive debilitating disease, andif the pain is not managed, there is no way you should expect nor even demand good work ethic
If you are not sure the pain can be controlled, then the horse needs to be retired, not worked


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## Kaiit (Mar 28, 2017)

Not to hijack this thread but I was wondering about schoolies, myself. So things like rein snatching or leaning on the reins are pretty common for school horses, likewise being dead in the sides/mouth and generally ignoring aids to the point that people feel the need to give them a constant thumping to keep them going... should we just be accepting that these horses are dead to the aids and have bad behaviours? 

Obviously, if a horse tries to cut a corner I would shorten the outside reign or if it really doesn't respond to the leg I'd use the crop instead of persistently thumping it - I try not to let them get away with things when I'm in a lesson - but we change horses/ponies every week and it feels like a constant war against some of the schoolies.

Take rein snatching as an example - most beginners ride without contact because they're (we were all) conscious of pulling on the horse's mouth too much but now when I try and take up contact, many of them snatch the reins. They want to be held out of contact so that you would have to pull your wrist to your body in order to successfully prevent them from cutting corners in the school. What could actually be done on a lesson-by-lesson basis? Or are these bad behaviours only correctable through re-training?


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

yeah... i always wondered if it was the cause, or at least a factor. The lady that owns him has been using him as a lesson horse, but i'm not sure if its because she needs the money to keep the place going or if he's really okay. Thank you for your response!!


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

Yeah... i don't know if the lady that owns him uses him in lessons because he's sound to do so, or because she needs the money to keep the place going, that was always unclear... Your posts have been a great help and they are deeply appreciated, your advice will really come in handy!


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

Thank you for your story it really adds hope to this situation!<3


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Kaiit said:


> Not to hijack this thread but I was wondering about schoolies, myself. So things like rein snatching or leaning on the reins are pretty common for school horses, likewise being dead in the sides/mouth and generally ignoring aids to the point that people feel the need to give them a constant thumping to keep them going... should we just be accepting that these horses are dead to the aids and have bad behaviours?
> 
> Obviously, if a horse tries to cut a corner I would shorten the outside reign or if it really doesn't respond to the leg I'd use the crop instead of persistently thumping it - I try not to let them get away with things when I'm in a lesson - but we change horses/ponies every week and it feels like a constant war against some of the schoolies.
> 
> Take rein snatching as an example - most beginners ride without contact because they're (we were all) conscious of pulling on the horse's mouth too much but now when I try and take up contact, many of them snatch the reins. They want to be held out of contact so that you would have to pull your wrist to your body in order to successfully prevent them from cutting corners in the school. What could actually be done on a lesson-by-lesson basis? Or are these bad behaviours only correctable through re-training?


I have the kind of lesson horses that have really good basic training that was completed long before students started riding them. But....the way they act with a rider depends entirely on how correct that rider is. These horses know within 30-60 seconds of mounting whether this rider can be messed with or not and with a normally clumsy, uncoordinated beginner, they will take advantage.

Put a good rider with balance and correct cues on them and you get a dream horse that you'd never know was used for lessons. Put a bouncing, bumping inexperienced beginner on them and let the games begin. Nothing that is dangerous but definitely a sourness and lack of cooperation. As the student improves, they become much more fun to ride and it actually inspires students to try to get better and better.

Not all lesson horses have that good solid training background on them. Many were chosen just because they are quiet and non-reactive. You can tell the difference with a lesson horse that doesn't get any better with an experienced rider. When they are happy with the rider, they just stop fighting and do it right.


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

Since you seem to know a lot about this topic, I just a have a question. So I left my first barn where this sour horse with arthritis lived and was being used for lessons, I was just a beginner and they put me on him all the time. I've gotten much better since then and I was wondering if the horse was sour because I was riding him as a beginner, or if he was in pain. I know that he has been properly trained and all because he was a college horse and has supported many people through their riding. If I went back to ride him could he be better?


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