# Mule that bolts/pulls away while leading!? Help!



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Same as a horse that pulls away while led, he has learned that he can simply out pull you with a plain halter and lead shank
Right from when we first halter break them, we condition them (horse or mule ), to believe that we physically control them with that plain halter and lead shank
There is no way you could control either one, by pure strength, if this ingrained response was not in place.
Once ahorse or mule tests that 'bluff', succeeds in pulling away, you then have to use whatever it takes, so they are NEVER successful in that vise again.
This mule first needs to spend time tied up solid
You then need to use whatever it takes, so it gives you an 'advantage' when leading him, and for me, that is a stud shank, run under the chin

He also needs to spend time in some pen, alone, and where he has to accept being haltered, in order to be fed. That alone does wonders. 
Let him get hungry. Make sure he has water. The halter him, lead him tot he barn and tie him up by a feeder or hay bag( don't tie with the chain shank attached )
If you have around pen, you can also do that join up, if you know how to do it correctly
What I would NOT do, is what you are doing now, trying to sneak up and catch him. That is doing nothing, far as getting him to accept being haltered, and in fact, can become a'game' You sneak and attach lead shank , and he then just pulls away , as he wishes.
I'm not one for leaving a halter on. I want my horses to learn to stop, and allow themselves to be haltered. In fact, my horses will lower their head for that.


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## Aurora5858 (Oct 30, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Same as a horse that pulls away while led, he has learned that he can simply out pull you with a plain halter and lead shank
> Right from when we first halter break them, we condition them (horse or mule ), to believe that we physically control them with that plain halter and lead shank
> There is no way you could control either one, by pure strength, if this ingrained response was not in place.
> Once ahorse or mule tests that 'bluff', succeeds in pulling away, you then have to use whatever it takes, so they are NEVER successful in that vise again.
> ...


I like the food idea. I started my horse ground up I know the need for respect ext ext. I don't know that is him getting away from me as much and join up doesn't do anything for him it makes him worse. He is the type that needs to accept thing at his own pace. If you force him into anything he gets flighty and will get just stupid. I was out doing join up with him for almost 3 hrs with no luck. Finally he let me walk up to him and lead him but he did not come to me. I think he was just so exhausted he has no choice. And mules do not think the same as horses. A mule must be trained the way a horse should be trained. I know that and I know his previous owners let him get away with bolting for so long. I know how to stop it from the beginning he just has absolutely mastered it. I wistle and my horse comes running and pretty much halters herself. She was an untouched pretty much feral 3 year old when I bought her.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Aurora5858 said:


> I actually tie off my good horse to the gate and get him between her and the fence which is pretty easy and stress free and then put one arm over my horse to distract him and then reach under my horses neck to grab onto his halter


Firstly, unless it's a VERY heavy, sturdy gate, I hope you're not tying your horse solid to it. Please don't tie to anything potentially breakable - just risking serious accidents. Even though your horse is well trained, only tie solid to solid structures, or else just take a couple of wraps of a long lead around a rail or such, if it's not 'safe' to tie to.

I would suggest for catching, you don't try to corner him & be shifty about it(my bet is this tactic won't work for long, then the ruse will be well & truly old), but to be direct & open with him & just 'walk him down', kind of like a very low key 'round penning'(but don't do it in a small pen). I would however, keep him in a large yard/small paddock for now, where you also have to supply all the 'goodies', and he needs to allow you to catch him to get them. So go to 'catch' him & when he moves away from you, just keep walking after him, as long as it takes(make it 'hard' for him by keeping a bit of pressure on), until he decides to face you, stop, hesitate... at which time you immediately take the 'pressure' off & quit 'chasing' him. Rinse & repeat until he works out(shouldn't take long) the easiest thing for him is to stop & face you when you ask him to come. If he's still nervous of your approach, watch his bodylanguage as you're approaching, and try to reinforce(remove pressure, stop approaching) BEFORE he feels the need to move away.



> and then I can slide under my horses neck and pet him and love on him and then I snap on the lead rope ask for a step or two and he will give it to me but then he spins around and runs the other way. I'm pretty much drawing a blank at this one I know what works for horses but if I lead him on a short lead with his head tipped toward me he still does it because he just outmuscles me.


I would suggest that you get him trusting you & reliable to be caught before you start doing anything else, especially as it sounds like he's possibly frightened & reactive even with the very basics. So by all means, 'love on him' **IF HE ACTUALLY ENJOYS THIS**(or else that could just be felt as another 'punishment' for being caught if he doesn't like it), or otherwise reward him with something Good for him, then let him go.

I'm not sure I quite understand how you're going about asking him to come off halter pressure(lead). If you ask for a step or 2 & he gives it to you & _then_ runs off, I'm getting the idea that you're probably not reinforcing him for what you get - you're keeping the pressure on when he gives you that step, so he decides he'll do something he knows works to get a release - escaping you.

I do know that donkeys(haven't worked with mules) don't tend to 'get' pressure/release like horses do, and I'd be more likely to try 'luring' the behaviour for the first few times, to give them the idea. Eg. holding a piece of carrot out in front of him while you put *a little* forward pressure on the lead. **Luring/'bribing' is not an effective general strategy, not a good idea to keep up, but can help in very first lessons. But it sounds like this boy is past this point, does know how to come off pressure, so probably doesn't need luring, but needs adequate *instant* reinforcement when he does it. Both with your instantly quitting the pressure, and positive reinforcement/reward - a piece of carrot or food 'treat' or a scratch in the ear(or wherever, IF he truly enjoys this).



> I don't let him get away with it I catch him again get a step or two out of him and then unhook his lead and walk away half the time he run half the time he stands there for abouta minute then runs.


If he gets away from you, he IS 'getting away with it', it's working for him to get a release. I suggest working with him in a small enough area & with a long enough rope, that that doesn't work for him, he doesn't get away from you. And if when you release him, if half the time he stands for a minute & then runs away, it sounds like you're keeping 'pressure' on him - perhaps staying close to him - I'd make a point of a) turning your proximity to him into a Good Thing rather than a Bad one, and b)when you release him, leave him, before he feels the need to leave you.


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## Aurora5858 (Oct 30, 2015)

loosie said:


> Firstly, unless it's a VERY heavy, sturdy gate, I hope you're not tying your horse solid to it. Please don't tie to anything potentially breakable - just risking serious accidents. Even though your horse is well trained, only tie solid to solid structures, or else just take a couple of wraps of a long lead around a rail or such, if it's not 'safe' to tie to.
> 
> I would suggest for catching, you don't try to corner him & be shifty about it(my bet is this tactic won't work for long, then the ruse will be well & truly old), but to be direct & open with him & just 'walk him down', kind of like a very low key 'round penning'(but don't do it in a small pen). I would however, keep him in a large yard/small paddock for now, where you also have to supply all the 'goodies', and he needs to allow you to catch him to get them. So go to 'catch' him & when he moves away from you, just keep walking after him, as long as it takes(make it 'hard' for him by keeping a bit of pressure on), until he decides to face you, stop, hesitate... at which time you immediately take the 'pressure' off & quit 'chasing' him. Rinse & repeat until he works out(shouldn't take long) the easiest thing for him is to stop & face you when you ask him to come. If he's still nervous of your approach, watch his bodylanguage as you're approaching, and try to reinforce(remove pressure, stop approaching) BEFORE he feels the need to move away.
> 
> ...


 No way woul I ever hard tie a horse to a gate I do a few figure 8 type loops around the top and then around the one under it. As soon as he gives me a step I give him full release and I've gotten to the point if I can get a step or two out of him I let him go before he decides to leave. He loves being loved on and will stand there and let me do that for awhile but if I ask for anything he is off


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Mules ARE NOT like horses when it comes to leading and tying.

Pulling away is a very common 'mule trick'. I'm afraid it does not fix as easily as the same vice does with horses.

Once a mule has gotten away with this trick, they seldom ever lead correctly again -- ever. I wish I could give you the magic bullet to fix it, but there is nothing that will erase this bad habit. 

Most mules will learn to respect a chain under their chin and in years back, halters were sold this way labeled as 'mule halters', with a built in chain like a cow halter is. Mules are so much smarter than a horse, that once they have learned that they can pull away, they know when a chain in on them and when it isn't. I have known mules that were kept in a halter with a chain on it and led that way for several years. Then, one day an ordinary halter was put on them and they instantly jerked away. Horses are just not this smart, but mules are. They do not let you make some mistakes without having permanent consequences--- this is one of those things.


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## Aurora5858 (Oct 30, 2015)

Aurora5858 said:


> No way woul I ever hard tie a horse to a gate I do a few figure 8 type loops around the top and then around the one under it. As soon as he gives me a step I give him full release and I've gotten to the point if I can get a step or two out of him I let him go before he decides to leave. He loves being loved on and will stand there and let me do that for awhile but if I ask for anything he is off


 Edit. I have walked after him for hours and hours. And it get me nowhere. I am not kidding you. Hours. He runs and runs and runs. Actually he was all drugged up from getting his teeth floated managed to get out of his little area to be with the other horse and I was following his drunk little self around the pasture for almost an hour. Hoping he would just give up because he was half sedated. But he kept at it for over an hour!


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## Aurora5858 (Oct 30, 2015)

I know gloves are in order and I know there is no magic solution. But maybe I will put something totally different on his head and tie him because he does tie. And will stand quitley when tied. Used to anyway. Just for a different feel.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Do you have a really broke horse you can ride? can you carry a 5 foot stock whip on this horse? 

If you cannot catch a mule out in the open, 'herd' it horseback, using a whip when necessary to keep him from kicking you or the horse your riding. Herd him into a small pen and catch him there. Use the same 5 foot stock whip to teach him to face you and let you put a halter on him. 

I have tied a 30 foot lariat rope to a steel pipe (set in concrete) post. The lariat rope had a bull-snap fastened to the other end. I would ONLY lead a mule like this when that 30 foot rope was on him and tied off.

We have handled some incredibly badly spoiled mules over the years. One of the most frequent problems encountered was mules that pulled away. They are so smart and have such strong necks, it is really a problem when one learns of its own strength.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Aurora5858 said:


> I don't know that is him getting away from me as much and join up doesn't do anything for him it makes him worse. He is the type that needs to accept thing at his own pace.


Yeah, he IS obviously getting away from you, & I don't agree with the whole 'join up' thing *as it's usually taught/done* anyway & it can make horses 'worse' too, but I especially wouldn't bother with a donk or mule. And 'at his own pace' is important for any animal, but it might be more about 'what's in it for me??' as I reckon POSITIVE reinforcement is almost necessary for donkeys, while you can get away with just negative reinforcement for much with horses.



> If you force him into anything he gets flighty and will get just stupid. I was out doing join up with him for almost 3 hrs with no luck. Finally he let me walk up to him and lead him but he did not come to me. I think he was just so exhausted he has no choice.


Yeah, it sounds like maybe his experiences/'training' could have made him fearful/reactive about being 'forced', and in that state, best to take the pressure off regardless of behaviour, let him calm down. BUT esp because he's part donkey brain:wink: I suspect he may be less on the afraid side & more on the 'you & who's army?' or 'why should I??' attitude. 

Yeah, I'd forget 'join up' & even with horses who are 'easier' about that sort of thing, I reckon it's far better to use minimal 'pressure'(ie not 'chasing' in a small pen), and maximum reinforcement of whatever you get, including positive reinforcement(reward), not just negative(removal of 'pressure'), to get him WANTING to be with you, rather than just exhausted/it's too hard so he's resigned to allow you.



> A mule must be trained the way a horse should be trained. I know that and I know his previous owners let him get away with bolting for so long.


Think I know where you got that saying from. I agree, in that you can get away with more... or less, with most horses, whereas donkey brains are 'smart' enough to take advantage of any 'mistakes' or 'wrong' approaches perhaps more quickly. But the same 'rules' apply - they learn from instant associations, and you just have to find ways of ensuring the 'wrong' behaviour doesn't work for the horse/donk/whatever animal, that it leads to unpleasant consequences(but not necessarily terribly so, like being run around in a pen), and that 'right' behaviours do work for him - bring desirable consequences - release & 'lollies' & 'loving', if he likes that. He's just learned (well, it sounds) that he can get away when he wants & say 'no don't wanna!'. So you will have to work _*smarter*_ to find ways to make sure that behaviour no longer EVER works with you, and that alternate 'good' behaviours do.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Rather than pet and love on the mule why not offer a tid bit, the old carrot in front trick as you lead? A little incentive? When you pet and love on a horse, or mule, it doesn't mean the same to them as it does you. But treats often keep them interested.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cherie said:


> Once a mule has gotten away with this trick, they seldom ever lead correctly again.


As said Cherie, I've not had the pleasure of working with mules - they're quite rare over here - only donkeys. But I've had the same sort of experiences with them, when trying to teach/correct them with 'normal' horse training methods of just negative reinforcement & punishment. 

I have had very good results using positive reinforcement though, including with 'correcting' long standing vices. I'm a bit of a sucker for donkeys & not infrequently get the 'ferals' that every farrier in the area has given up on & they've by then learned some really good tricks! I'd actually rather work with a 'dangerous' donkey than a horse, because they're generally less reactive & fearful - as in, they're actually thinking, RESPONDING, and very open to learning how to earn 'goodies':wink:. 

While as a rule, I only use food treats regularly in early training & then use only sporadically with horses, I feel that donks see it more as 'pay for work' & so require it(strong rewards, be that food or otherwise) more ongoing... altho I haven't had a donkey for many years:sad:, haven't trained one to a high level, only tend to deal with them for farriery, so maybe that wouldn't be so different in other situations.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Saddlebag said:


> Rather than pet and love on the mule why not offer a tid bit, the old carrot in front trick as you lead? A little incentive? When you pet and love on a horse, or mule, it doesn't mean the same to them as it does you. But treats often keep them interested.


If by 'love on' however, the OP means rubbing/scratching inside the ears, IME that seems to be incredibly strong 'incentive' for most donkeys!:loveshower:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, I'll bow to the mule experience, to Cheri, never having, nor wanting a mule!

I have read some great stories, though, by Ben Greene, in his books Horse Tradin, and More Horse Tradin, which includes also a lot of mule trading!
Some great entertaining reads, from the times when horse and mule trading was in full swing, with many tricks used in those deals!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

If this was a horse, I would apply the chain under the chin, over the nose, behind the ears, wherever works best. I'd also get a long stick. In the round pen, as babies, mine always learn their life is easier if they are facing me and showing me respect. They are not allowed to turn into the fence when I am round penning them. They always turn towards me, there is always an ear on me, and when I say "whoa", they turn and immediately face me. If I was to approach them and they try to walk away - Well, honey, you're going to put some pressure on and make that horse go. As long as they are standing still and being patient, their life is easy. I'll put the halter on and we'll go for a walk. If they choose not to, however, they will be sweating for their bad decision.

This method has been successful for me thusfar, as during my journey I have encountered a few (Few, not many) full grown horses who have never been taught to lead and had very little human contact. In my experience, eventually they learn the safe place where they can rest is with me. That's all there is to it.

Also, if this was a horse, they could probably hit the end of a thin chain once or twice and be broken of the habit. Disengaging the hip is helpful here. If they do not respond to just a halter pressure, and try to pull away from me, I'll grab their head with the rope and whack them on the butt with the stick. Most rational horses would swing their butt away from me - And when the butt swings away, the eyes almost always have to come to you. 

Another option perhaps is the butt rope. I like to use one on babies, never had to use one on a full grown horse except for the occasional bad trailering animal, but I suppose the theory is the same. Horse braces against the lead, you tighten up on the butt rope. Horse moves forward, pressure comes off. 

Again, I'm telling you what I'd do if this was a horse. I've not been around many mules, just a couple donkeys and one old retired mule I never really handled. It is to my knowledge that this is as Cherie is describing, and that they are much smarter than your average horse - In which case, I do not really know how to help you.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Mules are different critters all together. Please listen to Miss*Cherie*.

With 40+ years of experience with all sorts of horses, I can mess up a mule real quick. 

You can do this, if you are smarter than a mule and more consistent than... I haven't figured this out yet.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I know nothing about mules and would bow to Cherie any day!

What I would do, providing the gate post is good and strong, is get a 50 yard length of strong rope, tie that to the gatepost. Catch him as you have been doing and coup the length of rope onto his halter. 
He can charge off and be pulled up sharply if he is galloping off.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Chains work really, really well on mules. The problem is that they are so smart that they know when the chain is there and when it isn't. It isn't like they thrive on pain (some horses do.) They know when something will work and when something won't. They have a pretty good degree of reasoning ability that horses do not have.

Most Mammoth work mules were trained and led with a snaffle bit in their mouth. Once they were taught to lead well in the bridle, they could be led with a piece of string. We pasture a Belgian mule that weighs 1500+ pounds. She has always been handled well and you can lead her or tie her with anything. She is a real sweetie. I hate to think what she would be like if she knew how big and strong she really was.

And yes, you can get a mule to do almost anything with positive reinforcement. But, it will still only work as long as that is what the mule WANTS to do. When the time comes (and it will) that there is a disagreement, the mule will bolt and take off. It may be next week or next year, but it will come. When I used to deal with spoiled mules, I always tried to use positive reinforcement as much as possible, but also always had a 'back-up' plan in place so it could not go south and I would win in any disagreement. 

It just does not pay to make mistakes with them.


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## ChitChatChet (Sep 9, 2013)

I had a donkey that thought he could bolt and bolt he did till I finally figured out how to outsmart him. He was an incredibly strong donkey.

Once he learned I could and would out smart him and he quit trying me out. That took a couple of years. Eventually, he would do anything I would ask of him.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

A Belgian mule Cherie!!! That would be an impressive sight! How strong is she? Is she used for anything?


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