# Serreta?



## dulisaylcor (Jun 1, 2017)

Hi, I wanted to ask your opinion on the serreta? I live in Spain and many people use it, especially to train spanish horses. I personally think it is cruel as for one of my horses ,Duke, has serreta scars on his face, and his previous owner said he had been abused, but a lot of people defend this and say it isn't cruel. What do you guys think? Is it cruel or is it just the way previous owners used it on Duke?

P.S I'm just asking out of curiosity, I would never use it.


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## DanisMom (Jan 26, 2014)

I had to google it because I'd never heard of it. Cruel? Yes. Used by people who don't know how to train a horse properly or don't want to take the time. I see no practical purpose for it. Training horses through pain in unacceptable.


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## dulisaylcor (Jun 1, 2017)

DanisMom said:


> I had to google it because I'd never heard of it. Cruel? Yes. Used by people who don't know how to train a horse properly or don't want to take the time. I see no practical purpose for it. Training horses through pain in unacceptable.


Not many people have heard of it. It must only be used in Spain I guess


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

They are very frowned upon here, but there are trainer's who use them. Mostly they're called "Tack Nosebands" because someone puts sharp tacks in the noseband. I really can't think of a legitimate use for them.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

It is not something that I would want to use. Ask the people who use them why they use them and how it works.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

If the horse has scars from it then it was miss-used or possibly not lined. I am no expert on them, but the ones I have seen have a leather lining around the steel nose band. 
As with anything it can be used as a training tool or as a weapon if in the wrong hands. consider this, a large majority of people that ride horses today have no issue with putting a piece of steel and their mouth and yanking on it as hard as they can with no consideration for the horse, so which is worse?


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

Some Spaniards used these things to break a wild horse's spirit. I think they were used on pretty much every odd stallion for a while. They are very cruel; personally I would _never_ use one. Breaking a horse's spirit will never work out on the long run.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Hackamore said:


> If the horse has scars from it then it was miss-used or possibly not lined. I am no expert on them, but the ones I have seen have a leather lining around the steel nose band.
> As with anything it can be used as a training tool or as a weapon if in the wrong hands. consider this, a large majority of people that ride horses today have no issue with putting a piece of steel and their mouth and yanking on it as hard as they can with no consideration for the horse, so which is worse?


Then that is not a horseman or trainer, that yanks on the horse's mouth. No one who actually rides and/or trains well, and is educated in it, "has no issue with putting a piece of steel in their mouth and yanking on it as hard as they can". Anyone who is worth their salt as a rider and/or trainer tries to work WITH the horse and not be in their face.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

Dreamcatcher I totally agree. I am just stating the facts and if you go to any English event or Western speed event you will witness exactly what I’m referring too.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Eeek! I googled & while some are 'just' leather nosebands with bumps on the inside to exert sharp pressure points, many are far worse, some are even literally serrated metal teeth!! 

With careful use, the leather ones with small bumps could be construed as reasonable, perhaps no worse than a rope halter with pressure point knots. Not as bad as a chain across the nose.

Anything harder/sharper than that is purely abusive, no question about it. If people argue they aren't cruel, well... people also argue about prong collars & the likes for dog being fine too... no accounting for reason in some!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Hackamore said:


> <snip> ...consider this, a large majority of people that ride horses today have no issue with putting a piece of steel and their mouth and yanking on it as hard as they can with no consideration for the horse, so which is worse?


I don't know anybody like that personally. Should I get out more?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

loosie said:


> Eeek! I googled & while some are 'just' leather nosebands with bumps on the inside to exert sharp pressure points, many are far worse, some are even literally serrated metal teeth!!
> 
> With careful use, the leather ones with small bumps could be construed as reasonable, perhaps no worse than a rope halter with pressure point knots. Not as bad as a chain across the nose.
> 
> Anything harder/sharper than that is purely abusive, no question about it. If people argue they aren't cruel, well... people also argue about prong collars & the likes for dog being fine too... no accounting for reason in some!


Hijack, but prong collars may look much worse than, say slip chain aka choke chain collars, because you know, yikes! prongs!, but in fact they are gentler. They do not cause the neck and larynx damage that chain collars can. They serve a real training purpose, especially when a small, weak, or fragile handler has a big impulsive dog. 

Perhaps we should also not jump to conclusions about serreta nosebands . . .


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hackamore said:


> As with anything it can be used as a training tool or as a weapon ....
> a piece of steel and their mouth and yanking on it as hard as they can with no consideration for the horse, so which is worse?


Agree with you in principle, but if they're the metal teeth type, bike chain or such that I've seen on google, I do not believe they have any business being anywhere near a horse, let alone on it's face. And yes, I do find it a little... incongruent that people can loudly oppose this sort of 'tool' and yet be happy to use a harsh bit(or use one harshly), or a stud chain over the nose, etc.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Avna said:


> I don't know anybody like that personally. Should I get out more?


Nooo, stay home & stay ignorant to that if you can!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Avna said:


> Hijack, but prong collars may look much worse than, say slip chain aka choke chain collars, because you know, yikes! prongs!, but in fact they are gentler. They do not cause the neck and larynx damage that chain collars can. They serve a real training purpose, especially when a small, weak, or fragile handler has a big impulsive dog.
> 
> Perhaps we should also not jump to conclusions about serreta nosebands . . .


Yeah, I didn't want to get into this here - just used as one eg. I agree with you that choke chains & the likes are worse *as a rule, used in inexpert hands, & without training*. I cannot agree though, that they are 'gentle' or safe, or should be used because they're potentially less damaging than something else though. Likewise I don't believe tools specifically designed to cause pain are good for 'a real training purpose' on horses either, as a rule(there are conceivably rare exceptions, I'm actually considering an e-collar for my dog to stop her chasing chooks, tho I generally think they're a very bad idea), and it's not anything to do with jumping to uninformed conclusions.

I reckon a well designed, comfortable, non-tightening halter on a dog is the way to go, if you need more control than can be had by flat collar or harness. BUT as with bits, chokers, etc, etc, halters can also be 'cruel' if used without training... on horse or dog. But I'm on a 'positive' dog training forum(the one linked to this one) & have found to my surprise that some even see prong collars as less 'aversive' than halters. Have considered their arguments, but can't get my head around the idea personally.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

loosie said:


> Yeah, I didn't want to get into this here - just used as one eg. I agree with you that choke chains & the likes are worse *as a rule, used in inexpert hands, & without training*. I cannot agree though, that they are 'gentle' or safe, or should be used because they're potentially less damaging than something else though. Likewise I don't believe tools specifically designed to cause pain are good for 'a real training purpose' on horses either, as a rule(there are conceivably rare exceptions, I'm actually considering an e-collar for my dog to stop her chasing chooks, tho I generally think they're a very bad idea), and it's not anything to do with jumping to uninformed conclusions.
> 
> I reckon a well designed, comfortable, non-tightening halter on a dog is the way to go, if you need more control than can be had by flat collar or harness. BUT as with bits, chokers, etc, etc, halters can also be 'cruel' if used without training... on horse or dog. But I'm on a 'positive' dog training forum(the one linked to this one) & have found to my surprise that some even see prong collars as less 'aversive' than halters. Have considered their arguments, but can't get my head around the idea personally.


"All positive" dog trainers run into some of the same problems as "natural horsemanship" people do. That is, sometimes you need a tool that isn't in that toolbox. I've never used a prong collar, but I know they have their place. I have a dog who in the course of his life has pulled me off my feet many a time, and it's only luck that I never suffered anything more than bruises and sprains. Positive methods only work if you can provide a reward bigger than the one out there in the environment. A halter collar was the best solution for my big guy. Prongs aren't gentle, just gentler than some other less obvious tools. I also know people who have trained a long series lovely obedient happy dogs with a choke collar. The older I get the more I believe that your only real tools are your heart and your brain, and if you don't have that, it doesn't matter what else you have.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Prong collars are for long haired dogs only. They stay in one place and don't roll. The are only to be used with gentle hands. 

Choke collars should never be used on a long haired dog because they do not loosen and get caught up in the hair. 

I personally do not like to use metal choke collars, only soft round rope ones positioned close up by the dog's head, not low down on the neck. My dogs, however, usually wear a harness not a collar.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

They are commonly used on bull fighting hroses, where that rider needs absolute control of his horse.
Yes, people, eye opener, for those who admire bull fighting hroses, thinking those horses love their job, are naturally 'brave', working out of just plain training and trust in their rider.
I read some very good info in a book, regarding the use of the serreta , not just, but very commonly in bull fighting
Hackamore, I have never seen one used in any speed event. I know most things go, far as bits in gymkana, but the use of the seretta is news to me


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Avna said:


> The older I get the more I believe that your only real tools are your heart and your brain, and if you don't have that, it doesn't matter what else you have.


Agree fully! There are some things that I'd NEVER consider, & the serrated metal & likes over the horse's nose is one. There are things like a prong, e-collar for dogs, whacking a horse with a big stick... that I wouldn't use or advise, apart from extremely rarely, 'emergency' type situations. And there are many pieces of kit that can be used terribly or well. I think head halters for dogs are one of those, as are bits for horses.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> Yes, people, eye opener, for those who admire bull fighting hroses, thinking those horses love their job, are naturally 'brave'


Are there any of those type in The Real World?? Who actually have more than a clue about horses?? Not to mention, even the horses aside, the poor bulls... nasty, nasty, nasty 'sport'!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This is a paragraph, taken from an article of someone who re -trained ahorse that had been ridden in a seretta, to try and make a bull fighting horse.


'The new owners felt sure the horse would make a good bull fighting mount because of its intelligence, its courage, and its incredible athletic ability. They began training the horse with a harsh Spanish bridle called a “serretta.” A serretta has metal teeth in the cavesson that puts a great amount of pressure on the bone, thereby giving the rider more control of the horse. This particular horse would not submit to its rider, even with the use of the serretta. The rider was always fighting with the horse, and the animal was punished daily. The owners decided the horse was too dangerous and undependable to take into a ring with a bull, and again, out of frustration, the horse was put up for sale."

Link to article

The Latin Horse Whisperer: Julio Mendoza ? Horsemanship ? Part II | Horseman Magazine


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

loosie said:


> Are there any of those type in The Real World?? Who actually have more than a clue about horses?? Not to mention, even the horses aside, the poor bulls... nasty, nasty, nasty 'sport'!


Totally agree, far as bull fighting.Not only the bulls suffer, but also the horses.
The seretta, if you google, is 'tradition Spanish equipment for many Baroque horses


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

Smile, I did not imply a serreta was used in speed events, but referred to the heavy handed riding stiles often associated with certain performance events in pointing out that a bit can cause just as much physical damage as a serreta when miss- used.


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## CA VA shooter (Feb 4, 2015)

Ok, while I agree some "tools" for horses should just not exist, some really good well intentioned tools can be used wrong and cause damage, including hackamores. A hackamore applies pressure to the nose, if someone gets heavy handed they can damage the nose cartilage and fracture the fine bones in a horses nose. My point is always this, it is not the tool (bit or hackamore) that is the problem it is the hands that hold it. I see heavy handed riders in Western and English riding styles and have caught people riding heavy handed in competition and when out riding for leisure. This issue is not tied to a discipline or style, it is a person problem. 




Additionally, while I do not care for heavy handed riders and I do not allow anyone to ride this way on my horses, I find that most people don't do it to be abusive, they just weren't taught proper communication. Yes, there are some people who ride this way because they are just jerks. There is a line between being "heavy handed" and "abusive" which is why organizations have rules regarding equipment use. In rodeo, if your actions are deemed abusive you face a $500 fine, disqualification and/or suspension. If your horse is injured your horse may not compete again until proven that all injuries have been healed. I have spent my life on the rodeo circuits and most professional cowboys treat their horses better than anything else. The horse is the only way they get a pay check, if it doesn't compete they don't get paid. The people I find being ridiculous are the "weekend warriors" who want to go compete without doing all the work it takes M-F so they get frustrated and blame the poor horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

of course, any equipment bits or bittless can be abusive in the wrong hands, or on a hrose not ready to be ridden in some bit. This si a pet peeve of mine.
Curbs should be bits you go to, when everything is first correct in a snaffle, for refinement, not control
No matter how good the hands, starting a colt in a curb is not correct, simply because the mouth of that horse has not been educated to any bit,let alone one that does not have direct action/signal
A spade bit is a great bit, in the right hands, and on a horse that has gone through the program of creating a bridle horse , but does not belong in any hands or in the mouth of any horse
There is also the idea that any bittless devise is ;kinder, when some mechanical hackamores can be extremely severe
There is also the fact that many speed horses, as in gymkana, are never taught to ride off of great body control and light indirect rein, and thus are run with two hands on severe bits,thus given the term of 'jerk and spur' class by some outside of those disciplines, but there are horses that are run in games, off of training and body control
However, that is all examples of equipment being mis-used, while the serreta has no design function for any increased signal, in the right hands, but is purely based on control through physical pain


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## dulisaylcor (Jun 1, 2017)

Smilie said:


> of course, any equipment bits or bittless can be abusive in the wrong hands, or on a hrose not ready to be ridden in some bit. This si a pet peeve of mine.
> Curbs should be bits you go to, when everything is first correct in a snaffle, for refinement, not control
> No matter how good the hands, starting a colt in a curb is not correct, simply because the mouth of that horse has not been educated to any bit,let alone one that does not have direct action/signal
> A spade bit is a great bit, in the right hands, and on a horse that has gone through the program of creating a bridle horse , but does not belong in any hands or in the mouth of any horse
> ...


Totally agree! I also think that however soft the bit may be in correct hands, it can also be harsh in the wrobg.


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