# To breed a mustang



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

IMHO, no mustang is ever worth breeding. Because their lineage is completely unknown, there could be some funky *** genes hiding in there somewhere just waiting to rear their ugly heads on a foal. Yep, 'stangs can make nice horses and some of them are gorgeous, but there are already thousands looking for homes, so why in the world would anyone breed more of them. I would much rather pay a $125 adoption fee to get the size, conformation, temperament, and color that I wanted instead of spending 10 times that on a foal that may or may not be useful/pretty/healthy.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

smrobs said:


> IMHO, no mustang is ever worth breeding. Because their lineage is completely unknown, there could be some funky *** genes hiding in there somewhere just waiting to rear their ugly heads on a foal. Yep, 'stangs can make nice horses and some of them are gorgeous, but there are already thousands looking for homes, so why in the world would anyone breed more of them. I would much rather pay a $125 adoption fee to get the size, conformation, temperament, and color that I wanted instead of spending 10 times that on a foal that may or may not be useful/pretty/healthy.


Exactly! That's why I wondered about the crosses I saw. Some of them were fugly! I love my mare, I really do, but she has kind of a jughead.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

smrobs said:


> IMHO, no mustang is ever worth breeding. Because their lineage is completely unknown, there could be some funky *** genes hiding in there somewhere just waiting to rear their ugly heads on a foal. Yep, 'stangs can make nice horses and some of them are gorgeous, but there are already thousands looking for homes, so why in the world would anyone breed more of them. I would much rather pay a $125 adoption fee to get the size, conformation, temperament, and color that I wanted instead of spending 10 times that on a foal that may or may not be useful/pretty/healthy.


Well said as always. 

I think it's not about mustang, but as with any other horse: "I want to breed, and WILL breed no matter what". Too often without actually putting any thoughts in it (cost including). 

I'm not against breeding BTW, I'm against irresponsible/no purpose breeding.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> Well said as always.
> 
> I think it's not about mustang, but as with any other horse: "I want to breed, and WILL breed no matter what". Too often without actually putting any thoughts in it (cost including).
> 
> I'm not against breeding BTW, I'm against irresponsible/no purpose breeding.


That's the thing though - what if there WAS a reason to breed "this" stang to "that" stang? "This" stang has competed in yada yada yada and won several yada yadas, and "that" stang has done this and that blardy blar blar, and you bred the two just like you would two registered paints, quarter horses, arabs, etc?

It's all hypothetical. Right now, I wouldn't breed even the prettiest mustang, let alone cross-breed. Like smrobs said, there's thousands looking for homes right now. Then again, there's thousands of other breeds of horses looking for homes as well.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Equilove said:


> That's the thing though - what if there WAS a reason to breed "this" stang to "that" stang? "This" stang has competed in yada yada yada and won several yada yadas, and "that" stang has done this and that blardy blar blar, and you bred the two just like you would two registered paints, quarter horses, arabs, etc?


The biggest thing that I keep coming back to is the genetics of the entire thing. With a registered domestic horse, you can track what their parents/grandparents did and looked like. With mustangs, even those who are registered, all you do is pay the fee and get some papers...no lineage, no line tracking, no nothing.

That means, that if momma looked like this









And daddy looked like this









And by some miracle of horse genetics, the foal ended up attractive and athletic enough to win everything he/she ever competes in, that doesn't mean that those fugly genes are not still there waiting to jump into a foal.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

smrobs said:


> IMHO, no mustang is ever worth breeding. Because their lineage is completely unknown, there could be some funky *** genes hiding in there somewhere just waiting to rear their ugly heads on a foal. Yep, 'stangs can make nice horses and some of them are gorgeous, but there are already thousands looking for homes, so why in the world would anyone breed more of them. I would much rather pay a $125 adoption fee to get the size, conformation, temperament, and color that I wanted instead of spending 10 times that on a foal that may or may not be useful/pretty/healthy.


You hit the nail on the head.

When you can buy a known entity for $125 why in the world breed more of them on purpose?

Anyone who thinks it is a good idea has to be a few colors short of the 64 pack (and I bet they do not have the built in sharpener on the back either).


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I tend to agree, but not totally - at least not in theory. Here come a lot of "ifs"...

"If" you could find a herd that had been isolated long enough to be homogeneous, and "if" it was reasonably obvious from looking at the 4 generations or so that were present in the herd that the herd was breeding true, and "if" the basic conformation of the herd and your prospective mare from the herd was excellent, then I suspect "if" you chose the right Arab stallion to cross her with to introduce refinement and endurance, you would likely end up with one heck of an endurance trail horse.

Sadly, I also suspect that is too many "ifs" to expect...


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

smrobs said:


> The biggest thing that I keep coming back to is the genetics of the entire thing. With a registered domestic horse, you can track what their parents/grandparents did and looked like. With mustangs, even those who are registered, all you do is pay the fee and get some papers...no lineage, no line tracking, no nothing.
> 
> That means, that if momma looked like this
> 
> ...


But, at some point, if we continued to register (and therefore track) domesticated and competing mustangs, wouldn't the breed eventually "level out" and find a standard?

Bleh, might as well just go to the pens and find one that's already built how ya want it and train it the way you would one that you bred. Oh, how the world of horses works! I just think saying "This mustang is registered" is so completely irrelevant to its value, which is not how it is with paints and other breeds (most of the time). We need an Adam and Eve of the mustang breed... lol 

ETA: NONE of the mustang crosses (qh x, tb x, and even a hackney x) I've seen have been attractive at all. Heck, some of the 'pure' mustangs are still fugly. That's why I wonder what the hell motivates people to breed them in captivity. It was seeing this that sort of made me wonder what it would be like if one day the mustang breed was not so ... "vague".


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

It would be awesome, IMHO, to someday have the Mustang as a true breed that had a registration and tracked lineage like the domestic stock does, but it's unlikely that it will ever happen. Of course, someone would have to take all the feral ones out of the wild and monitor each and every breeding to see which stock bred true and which ones were culls, have genetic testing done on each and every horse to make sure that there weren't any weirdo diseases there. It would all just take too dang much money that nobody is willing to spend on a "jack of some trades" breed.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

2011 Grullo Colt <--- APHA/Mustang colt I saw on CL today. He's sure a cutie, but really?? Seems like a "breed for flashiness" situation.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I think the idea is to pass along the good traits mustangs are known for having like good feet, stamina, etc.. but its a crap shoot. 
Where I live most people consider mustangs almost worthless unless they are proven. That is why we see so many at the auctions.
Spanish mustangs are little different though, so maybe that is what they are talking about.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

flytobecat said:


> I think the idea is to pass along the good traits mustangs are known for having like good feet, stamina, etc.. but its a crap shoot.
> Where I live most people consider mustangs almost worthless unless they are proven. That is why we see so many at the auctions.
> Spanish mustangs are little different though, so maybe that is what they are talking about.


I've never seen a mustang at an auction, but I agree that they are not notably valuable unless they've been trained extensively, have decent conformation/looks, and good personalities. They're the dingoes of the horse world. I started a thread where people posted photos of their 'stangs and they're all just so different and unique looking. There is just no standard. You can't look at a horse and say "This looks like a mustang" because none of them look the same. I look at a mustang and think "This looks like a quarter horse" or "this looks like a paso" lol. People have said they thought Savanna was an Arabian, Paso, and quarter horse (?!!) before.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Every once in a while they run ponies off the reservations through the PL Auction. Even though they aren't from the BLM, they are basically mustangs.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

To play the devil's advocate just a bit, I'd like to point out that it is possible to get a fair idea for a certain mustang's genetic lineage with enough research. I know that in Oregon in particular, the Herd Management Areas (HMAs) are closely monitored. Genetic tests are periodically performed to assess genetic viability, and exemplary studs or mares are often the ones that they choose to leave out on the range to continue to reproduce. The mustangs also have good old Darwinism on their side... which I would argue might do a better job of culling the genetic weaklings than a breeder's opinion on what traits are desirable or not. I believe that the BLM also monitors to some extent who is related to who, as do mustang admirers... so it may well be possible to find out exactly what your mustang's mommy and daddy or half siblings look like.

Kiger Mustangs are something interesting to consider. They are intentionally bred by breeders who love their Spanish traits.

Here's a breeder that breeds a combination of Andalusian and Andalusian X Mustangs. I think that the majority of her crosses came out looking just fine... though sometime it's tricky to tell when they're in their "awkward" gangly phases. Fallon Mustang Ranch


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## OTTBLover (Jun 23, 2011)

Subbing because I find this all very interesting!


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

Hey heres my two cents worth. I own a mustang stallion, a mare and a weanling. www.wildhorseproject.com They are lovely horses. i would never breed them, because wild horses are going to slaughter straight from the wild as is. If we cant find home for ones already out there why breede more?

interesting about gentics. i have a gorgous mare that i adopted from muster, who had the weanling that looks like a mule. The stallion is good looking to and most i have seen are to, so i think my little weanling was bad luck and a definate genetic throw back.

some people do cross them in my country and they make amazing crossbred, a little bit of highbrid vigour seem to work well. They compete in jumping,eventing and dressage and eventing succesfully here to a very high level.

Again I wouldnt breed mine because there is no need, still plent more in the wild needing homes.

p.s i just started a thread that kind of about this kind of thing- please read it to- its titled- Please read this before you breed!- its in this sub forum


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

My sister has a QH X Mustang. He has decent conformation, besides being a bit pigeon toed and probably a few other things that a more knowledgable eye could pick out. But, he has the most dependable temprament I've ever experienced on a horse. He doesn't spook, he ponies other horses (including my dad's Belgian hehe), and has been an excellent confidence booster and first horse for my 12 year old sister as he's very forgiving of her beginner mistakes. With that being said, I do not think that mustangs should be bred or crossed in captivity. Dusty was just the luck of the draw and I doubt would be good for anything other than trail and pleasure.


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

wild horses said:


> Hey heres my two cents worth. I own a mustang stallion, a mare and a weanling. www.wildhorseproject.com They are lovely horses. i would never breed them, because wild horses are going to slaughter straight from the wild as is. If we cant find home for ones already out there why breede more?
> 
> interesting about gentics. i have a gorgous mare that i adopted from muster, who had the weanling that looks like a mule. The stallion is good looking to and most i have seen are to, so i think my little weanling was bad luck and a definate genetic throw back.
> 
> ...


Well, let's just pretend here that there were an actual _purpose_ to breeding domesticated mustangs. As someone stated before, and as you have evidenced, there is no way to know that the horse would breed true without looking at its lineage, which is ultimately unavailable.

However, the question is whether having a mustang registry that competes and has notable names in it, much like we have famous TBs and Warmbloods, would ever be possible. Surely it would take more than one person's lifetime to isolate and test the genetics of certain horses in order to reach the goal and create the mustang "standard". I don't feel it's impossible, I just feel it's going to be verrrry tedious. A lot of people want to breed mustangs for alllll the wrong reasons (however this doesn't just apply to one breed). Mustangs are a novelty to some people, and those people feel by making they criss-cross mustangs they can somehow have a "special" and "unique" cross.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

There are mustang registries of varying specialty and emphasis. You can find a listing of several of them and other informational websites or groups here: Wild Horse and Burro Groups & Registries

Some of the registries do emphasize the importance of the mustang's career in competitive events. Others will register solely based on whether the horse has a BLM brand or was foaled by a BLM mare who was received pregnant.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Besides the fact that I don't see a point to be breeding them....

I don't think anything bred in captivity should be considered a 'true' Mustang. Half of one, sure, or descended from a pair, but a real true Mustang is one that has been bred in the wild. (Personal belief and opinion obviously)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^That is one of the things I love about Dobe. He spent the first 2 years of his life out on the prairie before being captured and I believe that is a huge part of why he is so sure-footed over rough country, even at high speed. Plus, I get a good chuckle out of some of the funky things he likes to eat like sage brush, yucca plants, and cockleburs :lol:.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I define a Mustang as a grade horse that was born in the wild. Or perhaps a decendant of those horses. 

In other words, people think of them as a breed, but really they are just a feral domestic horse. They are a melting pot of breeds, just like Americans ourselves. 

I LOVE my mustang. He is a gelding, so no thoughts of breeding him, but he is the most honest, dependable, trustworthy horse I have ever owned. Probably ever met! He is the horse you loan out to your neighbors when company comes and they have a non-horsie family member that wants to ride. 

We paid $2000 for him but he was fully trained (even used as a heel horse) and it was the best $2000 I ever spent. Actually, it is the most we have ever spent on a horse, but if another John came along I would try to buy him too. He is simply worth it. He's the kind of horse that could be pink with purple spots and everyone would want one, because he's that safe, sane and sound. 

Breeding, I dunno. I personally have no problem with grade horses being bred (in theory) because I don't see what the purebreds have that the grades don't. That's probably because I trail ride, and breed really doesn't play an important role, it's more about temperment, conformation and training, any of which you can find in a good grade horse. So in theory, I don't have a problem with grades being bred.

Actually, sometimes I find what I want more often in a grade (like good bones and feet) than in a purebred (for instance there are a ton of Quarter Horses out there with tiny bones and feet that can hardly carry them- and it's not the horse's fault, but the breeders). So how can I knock a good Mustang until the Quarter Horse breeders can show me better? And even if they could, I could probably not afford it. So I DO think there is a niche for nice grade horses.

BUT, I do agree that until there are more homes for horses, it would be good to slow down the breeding a bit because I don't think good horses should be destroyed for lack of a home. :-(


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## wild horses (Feb 11, 2011)

Equilove said:


> Well, let's just pretend here that there were an actual _purpose_ to breeding domesticated mustangs. As someone stated before, and as you have evidenced, there is no way to know that the horse would breed true without looking at its lineage, which is ultimately unavailable.
> 
> However, the question is whether having a mustang registry that competes and has notable names in it, much like we have famous TBs and Warmbloods, would ever be possible. Surely it would take more than one person's lifetime to isolate and test the genetics of certain horses in order to reach the goal and create the mustang "standard". I don't feel it's impossible, I just feel it's going to be verrrry tedious. A lot of people want to breed mustangs for alllll the wrong reasons (however this doesn't just apply to one breed). Mustangs are a novelty to some people, and those people feel by making they criss-cross mustangs they can somehow have a "special" and "unique" cross.


we have registries in my country and breed shows, and breed classes incorparated into other shows, its seems to work well. crosses are actually gaining in popularity all the time. I went to one show and was blown away by the quality of most of the horses there especially some of the mustang crosses.


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## Nokota (Jan 6, 2011)

A *Mustang* is a free-roaming feral horse of the North American west that first descended from horses brought to the Americas by the Spanish. Mustangs are often referred to as wild horses, but the more correct term is feral horses.
That is the definition of a mustang. A *feral* organism is one that has changed from being domesticated to being wild. Basically a Mustang is a once domesticated horse that has become wild. The ancestry is like a mutt. Spanish lineage obviously, but anything else that had been released or escaped. A melting pot you might say. The beauty of the Mustang is that Mother Nature and survival of the fittest has had their hand on the breeding of this horse over the years and only the strong survived. Alert, wary, hard hooves, endurance. Nature can be very cruel and death can come quickly. That to me is what makes the mustang so appealing. We worry ourselves about foot size, conformation, leg bone in our breeding programs as we should. The horses bred by humans have to fit as riding horses where this is important. But nature doesn't care about the horses withers or the size of the hindquarters. It is strictly survival. a horse with weak hooves wont last long in the wild and the survival traits are what prevail.

I have a Nokota horse. This is basically a Mustang of North Dakota Badlands. I am sold on the breed. She is 5, and I have almost 400 miles on her and she has never had a shoe on. Very alert, when riding she is always scanning as she goes. I hink that is why she does not spook often, she sees everything first. If she locks on something, I look where she is looking and 9 times out of 10, she sees the deer, dog, human, tractor well before I do. I have yet to tire her out even on extremely hilly terrain. An added bonus is the bond they can develop with you. I never believed that gushy bonding stuff, but since I got my mare, I am coming around to that way of thinking. Not best friend, but a trust between the horse and rider that I have never experienced with my paint or Quarter horse or even grade horses I have owned

But back to the intent of the thread, as has been said there are WAY to many Mustangs out there that need to be adopted. But adoption is not for everyone. These horses are wild and their survival instinct is great. One could very quickly be seriously injured in the early stages of training and it is not for the inexperienced or for the meek and unconfident. I have seen too many mustangs adopted that are no better now than they were when the were adopted. They are just too much for the owners to handle.

Should they be bred???? I cant answer that. Personally I would not because of all the reasons stated above. Genetic flaws, recessive diseases.....all that could come out in offspring as well as the fact that their are so many that already need homes and so many backyard horses being abandoned.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I am a big fan of the heart(endurance) mind(survival) and hoof of this mutt that is an american icon, but they are still just an overpopulated feral horse many having serious conformational flaws that we should try to deal with that issue before breeding more ourselves.

Wow, I think that is the most I have ever typed. Hope I did not offend anyone!!!


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## Nokota (Jan 6, 2011)

Just want to add that the above does not include the verified heitage stock such as the Keiger Mustang, the spanish mustang and any others that I do not know about. They fortunately are almost pure strains that have existed without outside influence and their ancestry can be traced back to their origin. These spectacular horses should have the breed continued as the pure strain they are. I am speaking of the melting pot BLM horses.


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## ThaiDye (Apr 28, 2011)

I bought a mustang a few months ago. She is wonderful! She is one of the few horses here that I trust to put new riders on because she listens so well & only wants to walk and occasionally trot. Recently, my neighbor said she was pregnant. I really hope she is not but, aside from the vet coming out, is there some kind of pregnancy test for horses like there is for people?


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

The only reason I see a reason to breed a mustang is if that horse had something to bring to a horse breed such as working ability, temperament, stamina, cow sense(is that something people look for in horses?lol). 

I like this for dogs too. If someone has a legit reason to breed two different breeds then yes.

If someone breeds a mustang to a purebred arabian just because they love their horses and think they will make pretty babies, then NO! 

Breed RESPONSIBLY or DON'T breed at all!


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

WildJessie said:


> The only reason I see a reason to breed a mustang is if that horse had something to bring to a horse breed such as working ability, temperament, stamina, cow sense(is that something people look for in horses?lol).
> 
> I like this for dogs too. If someone has a legit reason to breed two different breeds then yes.
> 
> ...


That applies to all breeds, not just mustangs. I don't think anyone mentioned breeding for "pretty babies"? And honestly, as others have stated, you only want to breed if you have a purpose, true. BUT, the thing with mustangs is that you don't know if your horse will breed true. Many have stated their mustang has great temper, looks, etc etc but how do we know they'll pass that on to their offspring, regardless of the stud?


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

Back when the BLM first started the Mustang Adoption Program all stallions were gelded and the adoptee had to agree to not breed a mustang mare, in fact some mares were spayed in the beginning of the adoption movement. That practice became to costly to persue. Of course, the BLM could not keep track of all adopted mustangs, unless a report was made of someone breeding a mustang mare, so many slipped through the cracks of the adoption criteria. Nor were the adopted mustang ever to be sent to auction. I have/had seen mustangs go through auction barns I did send for BLM Adoption Forms back years ago when the program first came to be formed.

I love the magic and beauty of the Mustang in our American history. I applaud those who have placed a mustang in their lives.


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

Equilove said:


> That applies to all breeds, not just mustangs. I don't think anyone mentioned breeding for "pretty babies"? And honestly, as others have stated, you only want to breed if you have a purpose, true. BUT, the thing with mustangs is that you don't know if your horse will breed true. Many have stated their mustang has great temper, looks, etc etc but how do we know they'll pass that on to their offspring, regardless of the stud?


Exactly, if you are going to breed ANY breed of horse or horse that is mixed, make sure you have a purpose of breeding. What does this horse have to bring to the breeding pool? What do I want or expect? Why am I breeding this animal?Why do I think this animal is worth breeding?

I never said anyone said breeding for "pretty babies", I said that because thats what BYBs say and people who are carelessly breeding. 

Thats why BEFORE you even consider breeding a mustang(this should go for any horse really) breeders need to HEALTH test, temperament test, train, and title. Also if you got a mustang, I believe someone brought up something about the BLM or another mustang agency that keeps track and has only the good mustangs breed. Maybe if someone got a horse from there they could find out their mustangs sire and dam and see their offspring. They would be able to see what those horses and foals are like and determine if taking the risk to breed their mustang is worth it.

But otherwise,I don't seethe point in breeding mustangs UNLESS someone knows for sure what they are doing and has a darn good reason and has done all the proper health screenings, and testing etc. I believe people who work on cattle ranches they breed msutangs, but it depends on the horse, they breed certain horses for certain qualities and they breed to only other well bred animals. I am not sure about this, but I have heard some farmers doing this.

ANY breeding, whether the horse is a mustang or purebred, is a crapshoot.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I would personally hate to see the Mustang become a domesticated registered breed on that sense. Because everything they stand for as a breed is earned out there on those prairies.

Look at how badly we've screwed up the domestic breeds with dangerous genetic weakness and disease. What would we do to the Mustangs? Every single last reason why people love Mustangs is due to "survival of the fittest" leaving the strong, capable specimens to become domesticated riding horses after surviving the grueling tests of the wilderness.

I would laugh myself stupid at the idea of buying a domestic bred Mustang with 4 generations of domestic breeding. That's not a Mustang. Call it what you want, but it's not a Mustang. It defies the entire name of the breed.










This is a Mustang X Appaloosa and as sweet as she is, whoever bred her should be shot. She has the world's most terrible feet and when you're built like a Draft, that's not helpful. Although she has very straight and strong legs and has never been unsound, we have THOUSANDS of these going for slaughter every year. You could have bred an App to a Belgian and gotten the same thing.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

smrobs said:


> IMHO, no mustang is ever worth breeding. Because their lineage is completely unknown, there could be some funky *** genes hiding in there somewhere just waiting to rear their ugly heads on a foal.



Nature does a fine job of weeding out weak genes. If the horse's ancestors survived in the wild, chances are it's genetically healthy. Not that I think that by itself is a good reason to breed a horse. Besides, it's inevitable that selective breeding would change the Mustang from what it is today.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

ponyboy said:


> Nature does a fine job of weeding out weak genes. If the horse's ancestors survived in the wild, *chances are it's genetically healthy*. Not that I think that by itself is a good reason to breed a horse. Besides, it's inevitable that selective breeding would change the Mustang from what it is today.


But, being genetically healthy does not guarantee that they are conformationally healthy. There are still tons of stangs out there with God-awful conformation that would not stand up to any amount of ridden work and they are still breeding sound so...they breed.


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## WildJessie (Oct 15, 2010)

But I would also rather have an ugly horse(meaning ugly color and face.lol) that has awesome temperament, amazing healthy and smart, great work ethic than a horse that is super beautiful that is plausible with health and temperament problems.

But its NOT easy to get both, so my chances of actually liking the idea of breeding a mustang are pretty darn low. A mustang has to be a super horse for me think its breed worthy.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> Nature does a fine job of weeding out weak genes. If the horse's ancestors survived in the wild, chances are it's genetically healthy. Not that I think that by itself is a good reason to breed a horse. Besides, it's inevitable that selective breeding would change the Mustang from what it is today.


While that sounds good, it is not actually true. Mustangs have not been feral for enough generations to effect meaningful genetic changes, plus many herds are isolated from others, so there is no consistency achieved in that short a period of time. With their mixed breed origin they may indeed be "cleaner" genetically than most breeds which are more closely bred, but it takes natural selection a bit longer than 3 or 4 hundred years to effect many changes genetically in a population...that's only about 80 generations...


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