# I have a dangerous horse



## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Don't go near this horse. OK, I'm a mom and I'd never let you go to your aunt's place (and that horse) if I was your mom. I think your aunt needs to decide if which is more expensive: the hospital bills and lawsuit that's inevitable if that horse hurts someone or a trainer. 

I think this horse has leaned how to be boss and he likes it. Why doesn't she bring back the safe horse and send this one away for training?


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I would strongly suggest you take this horse to a trainer, it sounds like Jack's behavior has gotten dangerous to the point it's beyond your capabilities... send him to a trainer or get a trainer to come to you. 
There is a lot of good advice floating around on the internet, but this sounds like a bad situation that needs expert handling, not playing around with different techniques.


ETA - I just read your last paragraph. *Find this horse another home. BUT DO NOT LET HIM GO WITHOUT DISCLOSING EVERY LITTLE DETAIL ABOUT HIS BEHAVIOR.*


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Why does your aunt not send this guy out for some handling to a trainer? Unfortunately you don't have the experience (and bless your soul for knowing so) and if your aunt won't spend money on him for training, there isn't anything else you can do. I would stay away from him for safety reasons.

Horses like that can be worked with and re-trained. Try to have a chat with your aunt. Selling him could also be an option, tho you wouldn't be able to sell him for much and you would have to make sure you let the potential buyers know about his behavior. Right now it's more of a safety issue for everyone incolved than anything else:-|

Hope it helps.


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## Whimsical (Oct 17, 2008)

Thank you guys very much... This is definatly a situation I dont like... And i will continue to talk to my aunt to try to convince her what should happen. There is a man who trains horses and I have seen the wonders he has done. He has taken in friends horses who they just didn't want anymore and he's pretty much broken them of their bad habits and found them good homes. My aunt just doesnt seem to want to part with Jack. but believe me, my entire family is working on it. =[ 

Thank you for ur input and others are certainly welcome


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

This is going to sound hard hearted but I'm really not trying to be. I'm a mom of a 14 yo daughter and I would straight up FORBID her from being around a horse like that. Period. No discussion. 

Your safety comes first...NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

*Your aunt needs to have a vet out.* Jack could have neurological issues. He may NEVER be OK. He may need put down. I hate to say that but safety is always number one when it comes to working with horses.

When a good horse suddenly goes bad there is more to think about than just attitude and a trainer. If the horse is really this dangerous...I wouldn't suggest you sell him. You/your aunt could be at risk of a lawsuit.

Even if the people you sold this horse to someone that thought they could work it out of him, (Like I said earlier, It could be a loose wire in his brain....He could have serious issues here...) That horse could end up beaten and on his way to old mexico for slaughter.

I can't see an 8yo gelding turning bad all of a sudden. As I understand it he was a great horse just a few years back. What happened? Why does he not trust humans? Was he beaten? Shackled? Tied? It would have to be some sort of serious abuse...IF ITS JUST ATTITUDE!!!

If the horse has been well taken care of, He may just be nuts, and then putting him down WOULD be the loving thing to do.

BTW- I'm very sorry. Be careful sweetie!!!!!!!


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

Dumas'_Grrrl said:


> This is going to sound hard hearted but I'm really not trying to be. I'm a mom of a 14 yo daughter and I would straight up FORBID her from being around a horse like that. Period. No discussion.
> 
> Your safety comes first...NO EXCEPTIONS!!!
> 
> ...


Amen! There is no way I'd let my kids be anywhere near this horse. This situation is a disaster waiting to happen. Please, please stay away from this horse. 

Look, it's almost 1:30 in the the morning here and I'm up because my baby (she's 10 1/2) is very sick. She's got pneumonia and she's been on oxygen for more than a week. She's taken a turn for the worse tonight. As her mommy, this is horrible. I hate watching my beautiful little girlie struggle to live and be healthy. Please don't put your parents in the position of sitting by your bedside after you've suffered an injury at the hands (or hooves, I should say) of this horse.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Sweetie I know what you are going through, to an extent. I recently bought a 7 year old Hanoverian gelding for the price of gas to go get him...can you believe that? The reason for this was because he was a biter, kicker, man hater, would charge, rear, with shots he would rear and strike and was said to be dangerous, vicious and unpredictable. He was weeks away from being put down I found out later. He was spoiled as a baby so he didn't learn manners, as a yearling he was physically held down by 4 men while the vet gave him shots (only after the vet tried to twitch him and then chain him), he was put into dressage training at 2 where they would smack him with whips when he was "bad," as a 4 year old he started cross country jumping which he came away from being terrified of jumps and even ground poles, and his behavior was still so bad that the owner sent him to an equine behaviorist for a year. She tried to sell him so then she sent him to a college to try to be part of their dressage program and that's when things really got out of hand. He attacked one of the workers, bit and kicked a lot of people, and couldn't be trusted. And he was never turned out with other horses until he was 6 years old.

Sounds like I'm crazy, huh? I knew that's not who this horse was, it was just who he had to be to protect his dignity. See, this horse is very brave, confident and dominant. Horses like this are not afraid people are going to kill them. They are afraid people will take away their dignity. So they defend it will all they have. This is what my guy was having to do. I wanted a challenge for my next horse and I sure got it. I've only had him 7 months but the changes in this horse are incredible. He's so nice to ride now, I sometimes ride him barback with just a halter out in the corn fields behind our house. He's still got some issues but he has 6 years worth of walls to break down. He's like a Dr. Jeykl Mr. Hyde type personality. He is so darn sweet one moment and the next he's pinning his ears and acting like he hates your guts. When he does that I promptly drive him away and I won't let him come back until I have two ears full forward with a nice look on his face. And then he's fine. Back to Mr. Nice Guy. He's a very complex horse, pretty extreme in some areas but boy have I learned a lot. I'm doing a 4 day clinic with him in a couple weeks where I hope to get this attitude thing figured out. The clinician is one of my favorites and I know she will be able to give me some advice.

And for those who may be wondering, I've never been kicked or bitten by this horse. Shots are now a mild issue and he does not hate men:roll:

Sorry, I didn't mean for this post to be all about my horse....goodness! Anyway, I would be getting a professional in there to help you. It sounds like something happened to trigger this. Horses don't just snap, unless there truly is something wrong with them. Good luck and stay safe!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I agree with Dumas. Per your say he was a great horse and all sudden became a fire-breathing monster. Yes, certain behavior can come from dominance, but I don't believe SUCH badly SO sudden. I'd rather vote for something goes wrong with his health OR he was really badly abused by someone and you (your family) just don't know about it. If it's a health issue spending money on trainer will be just a waste. May be putting him down is the only option. :sad:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> Horses like this are not afraid people are going to kill them. They are afraid people will take away their dignity. So they defend it will all they have.


I'm sorry I have to disagree. Horses do not have personalities like people do, and the horse was probably defending himself to live.
I don't want this to turn into an argument at all, but wanted to point out something that I do not agree with. Horses do not think like humans and should NEVER EVER be thought of this way when dealing with a dangerous horse - it can lead to BIG trouble. If you're anticipating a horse to react more akin to a human than a prey animal, that can put you in a dangerous spot. 
It really sounds like the OP needs some professional help, and that is NOTHING to be ashamed of; a lot of people wouldn't be able to take on a horse like that, just as Spirithorse has already suggested. Perhaps she could point you to some trainers/techniques that have worked for her?


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm with everyone else that a professional needs to be sought for this horse. Hopefully someone who knows how to deal with a horse like this as Spirithorse said. 
I also think all medical and physical issues need to be dealt with first. Is he in some sort of pain? Is he being fed a "hot" feed that may be causing him to act this way? Something has to have changed this previously good horse that you could ride and compete on, into a vicious, wild, cribbing attack horse. Either some external or internal problem.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Joshie said:


> Amen! There is no way I'd let my kids be anywhere near this horse. This situation is a disaster waiting to happen. Please, please stay away from this horse.
> 
> Look, it's almost 1:30 in the the morning here and I'm up because my baby (she's 10 1/2) is very sick. She's got pneumonia and she's been on oxygen for more than a week. She's taken a turn for the worse tonight. As her mommy, this is horrible. I hate watching my beautiful little girlie struggle to live and be healthy. Please don't put your parents in the position of sitting by your bedside after you've suffered an injury at the hands (or hooves, I should say) of this horse.


 Joshie, we'll say a prayer for your little one.

Whimsical, I can't add any more to the good advise you've been given. I hope you are not foolish enough to ignore it.


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## Joshie (Aug 26, 2008)

iridehorses said:


> Joshie, we'll say a prayer for your little one.


Thanks. She seems better this morning. I think she did too much yesterday. We went to hug Joshua yesterday.


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## newhorsemom (Jun 20, 2008)

Joshie - I too will be keeping your "baby" in my thoughts and prayers. 

Whimsical - Personally I'd be very suspicious of such a dramatic turn in such a short amount of time. Seems like a red flag of some sort. If it were me I'd start with the vet. Best of luck to you.


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## G and K's Mom (Jan 11, 2008)

I think Dumas hit the nail on the head, something is not right medically with this horse. A horse that was formally easy to handle that goes bad needs to have a full vet evaluation.


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## Whimsical (Oct 17, 2008)

Im so sorry... I hope your daughter is better soon. She will stay In my Prayers. 



Joshie said:


> Amen! There is no way I'd let my kids be anywhere near this horse. This situation is a disaster waiting to happen. Please, please stay away from this horse.
> 
> Look, it's almost 1:30 in the the morning here and I'm up because my baby (she's 10 1/2) is very sick. She's got pneumonia and she's been on oxygen for more than a week. She's taken a turn for the worse tonight. As her mommy, this is horrible. I hate watching my beautiful little girlie struggle to live and be healthy. Please don't put your parents in the position of sitting by your bedside after you've suffered an injury at the hands (or hooves, I should say) of this horse.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

That's ok if you disagree with me. Such is life. But you don't think a horse knows when his dignity is being taken away? I'm not trying to argue, just curious. You can see it in their eyes.....ever seen a horse that just looks broken? I have, and it's so sad. There is no light, no spirit, no dignity. And when people do horrible things to horses, like some show people do for the sake of winning, don't you think the horse knows it's being done TO him? There is no dignity in that. And I'm not suggesting horses think like people. You know me better than that! lol. Horses are more perceptive than people sometimes think.


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## Whimsical (Oct 17, 2008)

Ok, Everyone's advice is so good. And I thank you all so so much. I should add some more things about Jack. We bought him when he was 4 years old, from a western breeding farm where his training involved being kicked a lot and tied all night when he misbehaved. The woman who owned him was pretty "experienced" and I was ten years old at the time and my aunt was inexperienced, She fell "in love" with him and asked me if I wanted a horse, I was a ten year old horse crazy girl, of course I wanted my first horse. We moved Jack to a new barn a few months later and he picked up the habit of cribbing from a horse stalled next to him. He also began trying to kick my aunt or I. We figured out that he had Lyme disease and Ulcers. so that all can contribute to his crankiness I'd assume. We moved him again probably a year later, where he got much better and that's when we started competing. When our trainer moved out of state a year later, we stayed for a few months with the new owner and then left again. Jack got his shoes removed and he had way too long of a vacation for "recovery" That's when he became grumpy and not fun. When We bought Tulie Last June, Jack got pushed to the side, being ridden by random people. We moved him home with Solo about a year after that. So thats basically Jack's Life story.... 

Again, thank you all so much. 
Jackie


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Recent studies have shown that horses do not pick up cribbing from other horses. It's thought that the cribbing action is an attempt to produce more saliva to help reduce excess stomach acid. It's vital that the horse has acess to forage at all times. How did you treat him for ulcers? I would see if your vet thinks it's a good idea to treat him with Ulcer-Guard paste. 

Being ridden by a lot of different people would drive some horses nuts. That's one thing that my warmblood hated, being handled by so many different people. He just couldn't tolorate it. Some horses can't, and the ones who can are saints! God bless them. 

It sounds like Jack has had enough experiences in life to make him act aggressive. I mean, tying him up all night when he was "bad?" You can't tell me Jack didn't know that was being done TO him. Where is the dignity in that?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Spirithorse said:


> You can see it in their eyes.....ever seen a horse that just looks broken? I have, and it's so sad. There is no light, no spirit, no dignity. And when people do horrible things to horses, like some show people do for the sake of winning, don't you think the horse knows it's being done TO him? There is no dignity in that. And I'm not suggesting horses think like people. You know me better than that! lol. Horses are more perceptive than people sometimes think.


Whenever I go to the local auction and look into horses eyes I can see most of them KNOW why they are there. And most of them look very sad. I don't think horses think like people, but I do think horses have similar feelings and they can think in own way (as well as cats, dogs, etc.). 

Sounds like Jack had been through a lot in his life. All I can say selling him down the road most probably will lead to more abuse and/or slaughter (unless someone will step in, but it's not very likely because not too many people want to deal with problem horses). :sad:


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

I would have the vet out. He could have hormonal issues or some other illness that is causing his drastic change in attitude. 

I would also have a chiropractor out to check him out thoroughly.

Next I would evaluate his feed. I would take him down to just 100% bermuda grass hay, no grain, no treats, no salt blocks, no supplements. Give him as much hay as he wants to eat. Let his body detox for 30 days or more. If his attitude begins to improve, then I'd say he has a food allergy or sensitivity. I would keep him on an all hey diet, and just add a vitamin supplement with a handful of grain or 1lb of a ration balancer (like Purina's Enrich 32 or Triple Crown's 30% supplement). If he loses weight, add Nutrena Empower to his diet, just 1-2 lbs of it (it's a rice bran/flax pellet that is high in fat) or see if you can find rice bran pellets and mix them with some shredded beet pulp (soaked or dry).

Illness, Pain, and Diet all play HUGE roles in horse behavior. Since this is a new behavior, I would look to one of those causes first, before attributing it to training or attitude change.

I also agree, personifying a horse is pure folly. A horse is an animal with lower thinking capabilities. I love mine, baby talk to them, and spoil them, but in no way do I think they feel or "think" like a human (dignity is a human concept). I still train them like a horse, using pressure/release and reward/punishment. They are well behaved and have PLENTY of spirit, lol.


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