# The 'Coupling' and Lumbo-sacral area of the back



## Elana

In response to a Question by TinyLiny, I am starting this thread. I do not expect everyone will agree with me, but it may prove to be an interesting discussion.

The Coupling is actually the placement of the lumbo sacral (LS) joint and its configuration. To begin with you need to read and understand this paper by Dr. Deb Bennett:
http://www.equinestudies.org/ring_revisited_2008/ring_of_muscles_2008_pdf.pdf

This explains the ring of muscles and how they work to help a horse better carry himself. If you can strengthen the ring of muscles, any horse can improve their way of going and carriage, even if they do not have great conformation, are built down hill or have a weak LS area. 

Next I will give examples (in photos) of various LS issues


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## Elana

Here is are some examples of horses with weak backs.. or weak couplings.. poorly placed LS joints. You can see the weak area in front of the peak of croup. These horses may have other faults but I am only concentrating on the back. I would not buy the first horse. I might buy the second horse and get his "ring of muscles" working for him. There are no perfect horses.


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## Elana

This is the opposite of a long weak back. This is what a Roach looks like. Yes, it is extreme, but it is not a serious issue unless it is this extreme (again this is my opinion). I would never purchase a horse with this back. It is hard to see in this image (grabbed off the internet) but this horse is almost deformed looking.


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## Elana

Last, here are some examples of strong backed horses with good LS placement.


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## Elana

Try again.. here is a horse that I think has nearly perfect conformation. This is Lonrho, Champion Thoroughbred in Australia where he stands stud (or did the last I knew).


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## Elana

Now, here is what I mean when I say a stallion shows prepotency for a trait (such as a strong back). This is one of Lonrho's offspring next to his Father.. he looks a chip off the old block.


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## Elana

And if you want to see a REALLY long back.. this was sent to me by Email and I was told it is a Texas Limo.... (just a little fun).


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## Elana

Just found another of a Roach back.. again.. grab off the Internet.. (Google Roach back and click on "images")


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## tinyliny

Ok. but what specifically IS a weak back or strong. I mean, you show two examples of horses and you say, "see the weak area in front of peak of croup" . Weak? what are we looking for? a line that angles up or is convex? or concave? I mean , can you put it in terms of geometry.?

I can see the extreme. Though , the stallion you raise as perfect confo almost appears to have a roach in his back. might be the light/shadow of that photo, tho.

And, what about the LS linking is good/bad? what angles?

I have read a lot of Dr. Bennets' things. But I wish she would use a pen or a crayon and draw over the photo to indicate what she means by "weak coupling" or "short loins".


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## Elana

What you do not want is the peak of the rump set behind the hip bone prominence. You want that peak to be over the hip and a _little_ forward of the hip doesn't hurt. In the weak back examples, the "coupling" (Lumbo area) is concave and the LS joint is "late" (behind the hip bone). A true "peak" like the first two horses exhibit is rarely put together with a strong back... a strong back shows a smooth transition between the croup and the back.. there is no defined point for the peak of croup. 

In the Roach, there is a clearly convex area ahead of the hip.. almost like the peak of croup is far ahead of the hip bones. A slight roach is strong.. and a bit stiff.. but those horses, while not as good at shifting their weight to the rear and lengthening the back to get the hind legs under the horse (see Dr. Deb's article and refer to the horses that are collected). A horse with a slight roach is not a horse that is typically retired for back issues.. and the do not get sway backed. 

In the correct coupling you would be hard pressed to find the peak of croup because everything is smooth. The LS joint is over the hip bone and the tail is not set too low or too high. 

In the photo of the three horses with good couplings, note that the grey is probably the best conformed horse of the lot. The middle horse, the bay, is a yearling.. but he is very strong and will improve with age.. likely developing a bit more wither. The grey has a better overall hind leg.. lower hocks and better angles (a good hind leg and a good LS joint are helpful for any higher level work you might want to do with a horse). The blood bay Arabian (or perhaps he is a Morgan) all the way to the right may be the weakest of the three (and he is very good) with his croup being a bit flat and his back a bit long which is compensated for by very low hocks and what I suspect is a stellar hind leg with good bone. Arabians often have a very strong coupling.. but paired with a flat croup and a high tail set, they actually do not always have a powerful hind end and may even have a weak (concave in profile.. behind the withers) back

In the case of Lonrho, he has an extremely short back. Some argue he is a bit roached.. but I see tremendous strength. His son may have a slightly more correct LS but he does not have as correct hind leg.. look at Lonrho's bone and the placement of his hock.. nice and low.. and his stifles are low too but he has a long gaskin. Another thing to note on Lonrho is his shoulder.. it is nearly perfect with the point of shoulder to elbow angle being neither steep nor flat. His son is the same way with perhaps a slightly better neck. Both he and his son have a ton of bone and great front legs. 

As an aside these are mostly photos that are very good to judge conformation from as well. I wish our conformation posters would take photos of their horses set up like this.. camera image plane parallel to the horse.. horse standing with space to the knees and camera opposite the horse's hip.


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## Elana

FWIW a long backed horse may produce a smoother ride.. and then we have that Texas Limo... but my complaint there is he does not seem to have an on board mini bar!!


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## teamfire

I'm not too sure I agree with all your good examples... To an extent. They all do have decent ls joint placements, but a couple look like they have a slightly weak loin.

When I look for the strength of the back, I look at a couple things. First is the placement of the coupling, or the ls joint. Next I find the beginning of the back (I find many have problems here, often confusing themselves when the wither is large and set back) and the back ends at the ls joint. We can then easily see weak backs when the ls joint is poorly placed, simply by length of back.

But the way I was taught, you must also look at the quality of the loin, which is directly related to the ls joint placement, but there can be weakness here too.


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## tinyliny

Ok, "weak loins" is an even vaguer term for me. please show some diagrams . I want to know clearly what you mean. And, question here, does it matter how "deep" the loin is? I mean, the distance from the top of the horse where his SI joint is (which is where pelvis turns into spine, so is where the back starts at the rear of the horse), and dropping down a nearly vertical line to where the bottom of horse's gut is. I have heard the term wasp waisted and seen such horses. Is this narrow distance an example of "weak loins"?


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## jaydee

I've seen more examples of horses that look concerning in the back area in the US than I ever saw in the UK - I wondered if it was something to do with heavy western saddles and being broke young and a bit rough maybe by a heavy person or is it just a genetic thing?
A horse with sacro-iliac trouble has that 'stretched look' - not a long back but as per the horse on the right in the first pair of pictures (I think I have that right) so it would make me want to establish if the horse was unsound or just in poor muscle tone/condition


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## Elana

Jaydee has hit on something.. and while I do think it is largely genetic (we do see a lot of horses like that here in the US) I also agree with the statement about the long backed horse on the right (the sorrel) in the example of a weak coupling, or long back. I did say I would not buy the horse on the left.. but I would buy the horse on the right. The horse on the right could be helped by conditioning. 

I do think one difference between horses in the UK and in the US is that there are fewer people who own and breed them in the UK. Those who do have horses tend to ride under instruction and the horses may have a more sound foundation. I also believe that stables still take there horses out to run them and do not necessarily train on the track (especially Steeple Chase horses). An English Thoroughbred, well bred, is an animal of substance (or the ones I have see are). 

Wasp Waisted horses are a whole 'nother topic.. and in that you need to be able to tell if it is conformation or conditioning. Many horses in racing form are wasp waisted.. but that is not their conformation but their conditioning.


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## jaydee

*weak backed*

I'm not sure if there are fewer horse owners in the UK by ratio of the population but as a very small country we are crammed together more and owning a property with enough land to even keep a horse is beyond the pockets of most owners so less amateurs breed horse. That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who do breed bad - quantity above quality but as sales have dropped so have numbers. A lot of these types were/are ponies that cost little to produce and often end up straight for the meat market so never get into the breeding chain.
One of the biggest problems are the owners that get an outgrown pony or buy a cheap failed racing mare and think that by putting it too a nice stallion they will get a good result.
There is a lot of Irish Draft and welsh cob influence still in UK breeding and they do have a better genetic back conformation which might also explain why there are less faults seen
IMO all stallions and mares should have to be officially approved for breeding and licensed as such.
Back to the horse on the right - there is a term called 'jumpers bump' in the UK (might be universal) that does look like that horses shape. Its generally a result of jumping strain either from over exertion - which is why its often seen in (fox) hunters and TB's that race over fences and horses that are jumped too early and then too often. Its caused by a strain to the ligaments at attachment of the lumbar and sacral vertebrae and though painful at first it does harden into normal scar tissue but may reduce the horses ability to jump though not affect its general use as a riding horse - though in UK show classes where horses have to be stripped of tack & also judged on conformation they wouldn't be any use
This is a link to one web page that explains it better and has a large photo
http://www.jwequine.com/pdf/hunters-bump.pdf


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## Elana

I know about Hunter's Bump.. the horse on the right is a Quarterhorse and far too many have a prominent peak of croup for them to ALL have hunter's bump. 

However, that blemish CAN add to the confusion when discussing a top line. 

I do agree with the rest.. and ponies.. lots of ponies.. never get a chance.


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## jaydee

*odd top line*



Elana said:


> I know about Hunter's Bump.. the horse on the right is a Quarterhorse and far too many have a prominent peak of croup for them to ALL have hunter's bump.
> 
> However, that blemish CAN add to the confusion when discussing a top line.
> 
> I do agree with the rest.. and ponies.. lots of ponies.. never get a chance.


 Yes the ones I have seen over here have all been either quarter horses or part bred quarter horses, many of which I would think have never jumped anything that would 'stretch' them so chances of it being genetic are more likely
Is this a case - do you think - of horses being bred to produce a certain look so at lot of interbreeding going on? Some quarter horses do seem to have enormous back ends but look very low in the front. I can see this being an advantage in its early stages but has it gone into the extremes?
We looked at arabians over here a couple of years back and noticed they were mostly a lot finer than the UK ones but with much smaller 'typey' heads. One quite succcessful arabian trainer told us that they were bred solely for the heads with no thought to what came behind - basically a piece of pasture art - and now they need to go back to the start and put things right to get a good riding animal again. One stallion that was widely used for his perfect head etc was constantly throwing progeny with 'clubfoot' yet continued to be a top sire. We were surprised that horses with clubfoot could win in the show ring here at all as they wouldn't have a chance in the UK


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## Elana

This discussion is going OT.. so we pro'ly ought to take it over to the breeding and genetics area. That being said.. there seems to be a trend to extremes in American Breeding of animals.. be it dogs (look at my breed.. the German Shepherd), cattle (Guernsey cattle have become very find boned) to horses... It is accomplished by Line Breeding (as opposed to inbreeding) but then good animals are bred using line breeding as well.


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## jaydee

*O/T*



Elana said:


> This discussion is going OT.. so we pro'ly ought to take it over to the breeding and genetics area. That being said.. there seems to be a trend to extremes in American Breeding of animals.. be it dogs (look at my breed.. the German Shepherd), cattle (Guernsey cattle have become very find boned) to horses... It is accomplished by Line Breeding (as opposed to inbreeding) but then good animals are bred using line breeding as well.


 Its certainly a very interesting topic and well worth discussing especially for anyone thinking about breeding.
Thanks for all the research you put into it.
Yes totally right about dogs too


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## Elana

Not so much research.. more many years of being on this earth training horses, riding horses, farming, handling lots of animals and so forth. 

IOW's I am old enough to have knocked around a bit. LOL


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## LittleZeasel

This is just the perfect thread for me, to add my question to. The "hunter's bump" - is that the same "bump" in the LS Joint Region that mares get, when they "dip" right before foaling, and settle down? - if so, in reality for those with experience handling mares after foaling - is it possible to "retrain" the back and abdomen musculator to lift that joint again, to minimize that "dip" where the loin meets the croup?

How "useable" under saddle will that horse be? Will it be possible to train that horse collection?


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## jaydee

LittleZeasel said:


> This is just the perfect thread for me, to add my question to. The "hunter's bump" - is that the same "bump" in the LS Joint Region that mares get, when they "dip" right before foaling, and settle down? - if so, in reality for those with experience handling mares after foaling - is it possible to "retrain" the back and abdomen musculator to lift that joint again, to minimize that "dip" where the loin meets the croup?
> 
> How "useable" under saddle will that horse be? Will it be possible to train that horse collection?


 I wont claim to be an expert here as I have no experience of mares that have had one foal after another over a long period of time and there are always going to be exceptions
I have however bred foals from quite a lot of mares over the years - as many as 4 in a row from one mare - that have returned to riding work with no conformation issues and all into competition situations that demanded collection with no problems. Nothing was done to retrain the mare as far as bringing the back up was concerned. Thats usually something that will sort out in the time the mare is feeding the foal and then improve with gradual normal return to work
If there is actual damage done to the sacro iliac thats a different thing and would depend on how severe it is


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