# What patterns do you see?



## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

Below are pictures of two of our horses that I would love some feedback on.

The first is our new 2011 APHA colt and the second is of our 2008 AQHA/APHA filly that we just bought and will be coming home to us shortly 

Our colt is a frame but does he carry the splash gene as well? 

Our filly is the toughest. She is an outcrop and is by two AQHA parents but is dual registered. She's showing overo markings but what type(s)? I see possible frame, frame/splash and/or sabino. The possible sabino markings are tough to see but you can sort of see what I'm talking about on the picture of her as a three year old. I wish I had more pictures to post but these are all I have right now. I know her breeder very well and have requested more but I haven't received them yet.


2011 APHA colt - AKA Austin























2008 AQHA/APHA filly - AKA Holly



Yearling picture












Yearling picture #2












Three year old picture (sabino markings?)


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Whew, nice looking babies there!

The colt, I agree for frame overo. He very well could have splash, there is a test out now for that if you want to know for sure.

The filly, I see sabino and splash. The splash I see is going underneath her jaw. And the legs. The legs can also be caused by sabino, see the speckles where the white and brown mix together? And that spot along her left side speaks sabino to me. And the larger spot on the right speaks splash. :-/


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Oh by the way, can I have them both? ****!


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

CLaPorte432 said:


> Whew, nice looking babies there!
> 
> 
> Thanks CLaPorte432!! We love them both! Our little colt is our show prospect and he can't grow up fast enough, lol!
> ...


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

All frame overos carry lethal white. Frame in its homozygous state is lethal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I can guarantee you that foal is a LWO carrier. Frame _is_ LWO. One copy of Frame is completely harmless. Two copies is what's lethal. If you bred him for whatever reason, make sure the mare isn't a Frame carrier. Also definitely splash. Probably sabino also.

The filly is splash and I'm going to guess sabino based on how jagged the edges of her white spots are. However, I would probably test her for Frame just to be safe because it can hide.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

There is always the possibility for frame. So definitely test them both. My apha mare only has white on her face and belly markings like your girl (little on one side and a hand sized spot on other side) and to ankle socks and she is a frame carrier. So until you know for sure that they are or arent frame carriers, think of them as a frame carrier just to be safe. 

And dangit, i was hoping to snatch one of those lovelies from you. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

No worries everyone, I already stated that he would be tested to see if he was a lethal white carrier  *"Not that we're planning on breeding him but it's better safe than sorry"*


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Don't waste your money testing the colt for Frame. He is. The filly, however, I would test. 

CLaPorte - My mare doesn't even have that much. One hind pastern white, a large blaze, and a very little, maybe quarter sized white spot near her elbow and she's N/O.

ETA: Lethal white isn't a disease they develop over time. It's just a mutation within the gene that causes a malformed digestive tract when homozygous. You have nothing to worry about with the colt.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I agree with previous posters. Frame and splash most definitely on the little boy. He has to have something more than frame, as frame doesn't like leg white. Sabino and splash, no frame, for the filly. Again, it's the high leg white telling me she doesn't have frame. HOWEVER - she should still be tested before breeding her at all ever.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

was the colt's sire or dam carrying tobi at all?


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> Don't waste your money testing the colt for Frame. He is. The filly, however, I would test.
> 
> CLaPorte - My mare doesn't even have that much. One hind pastern white, a large blaze, and a very little, maybe quarter sized white spot near her elbow and she's N/O.
> 
> ETA: Lethal white isn't a disease they develop over time. It's just a mutation within the gene that causes a malformed digestive tract when homozygous. You have nothing to worry about with the colt.


 
I know what you're saying  As I stated, I know he's a frame but if I'm going to send samples in to be tested for splash, I may as well find out if he is OLWS postitive (homozygous) as well 

I know how horses can test positive even with minimal markings. I just recently came across a site that showed a solid black stallion with only white stockings that sired a maximum frame when crossed with a mare marked the same way! I also came across another breeder's site that has a minimal mare for sale that tested positive for LWO (homozygous).


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

very nice


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

If he were OLWS Homozygous he would be dead. OLWS is *olny* lethal in the homozygous form.

You guy is heterozygous for OLWS/frame.

ETA link to the place that was claiming positive homozygous live OLWS mare please.


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> was the colt's sire or dam carrying tobi at all?


 
NdAppy, yes. His dam is a solid out of overo and tobiano lines. His sire is an overo out of overo patterned lines.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Has his dam tested positive for tobiano or can you post a picture of her please?


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> If he were OLWS Homozygous he would be dead. OLWS is *olny* lethal in the homozygous form.
> 
> You guy is heterozygous for OLWS/frame.
> 
> ETA link to the place that was claiming positive homozygous live OLWS mare please.


 
I'm getting confused on the terminoligy here, lol! Canada and the US word things differently  

I know my colt is a "frame overo" in pattern and not a "lethal white". He may or may not however, test to be a lethal carrier (or....sire a lethal white foal). The mare I was reffering to was not a "lethal white", simply tested positive and could produce one.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Your horse is frame. Frame *IS* lethal white. You can't have one without the other. It is _only_ lethal in the homozygous (two genes, one from each parent) form.


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Has his dam tested positive for tobiano or can you post a picture of her please?


 
His dam never "tested" positive but is carrying the tobi gene. She is out of a tobi stallion on the top (mainly QH breeding) and overo on the bottom. Here is the only picture I have of his dam right now:


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Your horse is frame. Frame *IS* lethal white. You can't have one without the other. It is _only_ lethal in the homozygous (two genes, one from each parent) form.


 
****!! OK NdAppy  Again I think I may be doing/saying this wrong but my point is, without being tested to be sure, he may never sire a lethal white foal right? (lethal meaning, the foal will never survive)

I love you by the way NdAppy, you are to the point all the time!!!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

If bred to another frame carrier, he has a 25% chance of producing a lethal white foal. He himself is not lethal white, no. But he carries one gene for frame - which is lethal white. Lethal white is not lethal if the horse has one copy (heterozygous). However, if the horse has two copies (homozygous) then it is lethal.


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> If bred to another frame carrier, he has a 25% chance of producing a lethal white foal. He himself is not lethal white, no. But he carries one gene for frame - which is lethal white. Lethal white is not lethal if the horse has one copy (heterozygous). However, if the horse has two copies (homozygous) then it is lethal.


 
Again, I think this was just a communication error  

I know what a "lethal white" foal is and what happens (very sad). All I was saying was that there are "frame overos" that will not produce a "lethal white" foal and there are that will. Right?  Not all "frames" will produce a lethal white which is why there are tests available to determine that, correct?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

No, you are incorrect. Frame is Frame and there is only one. Any horse that tests positive for LWO (Frame) will have a 25% chance of producing a LWO foal when bred to another Frame-positive horse.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

No. That's where the confusion is.

A horse that is frame is a horse with one copy of the gene. A frame horse always has the chance to produce a lethal foal if bred to another frame horse. There is no separation of the two.

The confusion in this case is the term "overo". Ditch it. It is a stupid term that causes confusion just like this, and this is the confusion that often ends with a lethal foal. "Overo" simply means "ummm, a white pattern, pretty sure it's not tobiano, can't be bothered figuring out what it is". In reality, there are quite a few different white patterns, so three of them are being lumped together under "overo" - frame, splash, and sabino. We know enough now to separate these three and should do so.


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> No, you are incorrect. Frame is Frame and there is only one. Any horse that tests positive for LWO (Frame) will have a 25% chance of producing a LWO foal when bred to another Frame-positive horse.


 
OK.....then I misunderstood  I knew that not all "overos" would sire/throw a lethal foal but that's where it stopped.

So...if he's a true "frame", then he will ALWAYS have the possibility of throwing a lethal white foal unless bred to the right mare. Not that it matters at this time as we were not necessarily planning on breeding him as stated in the beginning, but that's good to know 

Back to the reason of my topic/post, I'm just curious of what everyone sees as the possible patterns of my horses


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

StraitGirl said:


> I'm getting confused on the terminoligy here, lol! Canada and the US word things differently
> 
> I know my colt is a "frame overo" in pattern and not a "lethal white". He may or may not however, test to be a lethal carrier (or....sire a lethal white foal). The mare I was reffering to was not a "lethal white", simply tested positive and could produce one.


No wording is all the same wherever your from:wink: yes terminology is the same here in Canada.
Your Boy shows most obvious Frame & splash.Most obvious indications of splash on him is his white legs & the white coming from the Base of his tail{White in tail is seen with tobi's but it starts at Top of tail}.
Horses that are genotypical frame overo are carriers of OLWS,they carry one copy of the gene{heterzygous}.When mated with another OLWS carrier there is 2 genes that can be passed on{one from each parent}.The baby has a 1 in 4 chance of recieving both those copies ,that makes him Homozygous for frame or Lethal white Baby.Frame in it's homozygous form= lethal:-(
That is why we test for OLWS ,breeding OLWS positive to a non carrier you can eliminate the risk of having a lethal baby.The other overo patterns Splash & Sabino don't carry OLWS,a Tobiano does not either.Problem is many horses these days are a mix of the patterns so frame can hide among the other patterns.
The Frame Gene is good at hiding or minimally express itself so just looking at a horse you may not see it in it's markings,that is why testing any breeding stock is important.


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> No. That's where the confusion is.
> 
> A horse that is frame is a horse with one copy of the gene. A frame horse always has the chance to produce a lethal foal if bred to another frame horse. There is no separation of the two.
> 
> The confusion in this case is the term "overo". Ditch it. It is a stupid term that causes confusion just like this, and this is the confusion that often ends with a lethal foal. "Overo" simply means "ummm, a white pattern, pretty sure it's not tobiano, can't be bothered figuring out what it is". In reality, there are quite a few different white patterns, so three of them are being lumped together under "overo" - frame, splash, and sabino. We know enough now to separate these three and should do so.


 
Chiilaa, I agree with your comments on the "overo" term. I don't understand why the APHA does not change their rules for overos and make it manditory to test a horse for what form of overo gene they truly are before registering them. 

Each test costs $25, not that expensive if you ask me. And what those tests could save in the end, is endless. The APHA has no control over what owner's decide to breed their horses so by testing each foal before regisitering them could eliminate so many problems and, in the "frame" situation, death.


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks for eveything learned! 

I'm still curious of what everyone sees as the possible patterns of my horses, especially my filly :grin:


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

paintedpastures..... Were you not an APHA breeder in MB and then got out of that area to further your breeding of minis? If I'm correct, you offered some beautiful APHA prospects for sale


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

StraitGirl said:


> paintedpastures..... Were you not an APHA breeder in MB and then got out of that area to further your breeding of minis? If I'm correct, you offered some beautiful APHA prospects for sale


No I think I know the breeder who you are talking about but no that is not me:lol:
I have Shown & Bred APHA horses, but in Alberta


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hey StraitGirl, I was just going to compliment you on your new horses, and the one in your avatar, until I realized it was the same colt, lol! Anyway, they both are GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would love to have that colt in particular!


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

Thanks trailhorserider! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StraitGirl (Jan 22, 2012)

paintedpastures said:


> No I think I know the breeder who you are talking about but no that is not me:lol:
> I have Shown & Bred APHA horses, but in Alberta


B W Acres? 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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