# Does anyone else get a chair-seat on a wide horse?



## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

I usually have a pretty decent leg position - except on this boy. Chair-seat every time. Lots of things wrong in this picture: horse is turned away, so I'm twisted, on a sidehill, my hands are just finishing up petting him, pretty sure I'm considering the need to rearrange my undies, etc when my husband says "smile". So don't rip me apart here.
But what on earth is going on with my leg? It only happens on this horse (a true widebody). My saddle sits correctly - I'm in the deepest part of the seat, and feel well-balanced. I've tried having a longer leather, but then I actually barely reach it and my foot comes out at a canter. So I tried just dropping my leg without the stirrup at all to see where it ends up, and it naturally falls right where it is in this pic. So for kicks I've tried to force my knee further down to bring my heel into better alignment with my body, but I can't - it's like doing the splits, and my leg loses most of the contact with the horse's body. It's no biggie. I ride trails, I'm comfortable, I'm in control, but for someone who's always been a stickler for correct position, it's REALLY annoying. Why is this happening? This is the widest horse I ride. Any suggestions for getting my leg fixed?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Don't go off of my advice alone, but is that saddle a bit too forward? It seems to be kind of sitting on his shoulder a bit.

What happens when you take your feet out of the stirrups?

Try taking your feet out, bringing your knees together at the pommel, stretch up and let them slide down.

It could also be that saddle + that horse doesn't work well for your position. It almost seems you're a bit far back on your seat bones and not on (well not ON, hope you know what I mean) your pubic bone. But I'm not there so I can't really tell for sure.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW, I also tend to get a chair seat on a wide horse. My horses are pretty slender, and my 54 year old hips have gotten used to stretching far enough to straddle them. 

But put me on a wide horse, and my legs just won't stretch that far apart. Moving my knees forward slightly takes the pressure off my hips and takes the tension out of my legs. When I took up riding at 50, I had to do the same thing even on my slender horses.

Other than stretching exercises, I can't think of much to help.


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

I do feel like I'm sitting on my pubic bones and not the butt-bones.
You might be onto something about the saddle being too far forward, though. That could make sense. He isn't just wide. He's, well..fat. The girth tends to want to be in the smallest spot, and that's pretty far forward on him. I'll try forcing it a little further back next time and see what happens. It is a forward-flap saddle, so it could look deceiving.
when I drop my stirrups, my leg ends up right where it is in the picture. I haven't tried the raising the leg and stretching it first though - I might be a little locked in when I do that test,
Thanks!


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

bsms said:


> But put me on a wide horse, and my legs just won't stretch that far apart. Moving my knees forward slightly takes the pressure off my hips and takes the tension out of my legs.


Exactly. When I move my legs forward, I feel like I'm cupping his body well without straining my hips and knees by trying to bend around his holy wideness. I know that people ride beautiful equitation on wide horses, so I know that's no excuse, but that's what happens. I might just be subconsciously choosing the path of least pain.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I have super short legs, and do find that on a really wide horse I just run out of leg to get around and down and back to an aligned position!

In your case, it looks like you're also riding in a GP/AP saddle, which often promote a chair seat in riders - amongst the above mentioned suggestions.


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

Kayty said:


> In your case, it looks like you're also riding in a GP/AP saddle, which often promote a chair seat in riders - amongst the above mentioned suggestions.


Yes, it's an old AP Passier pancake saddle with a slight jumping flap (VS flap).


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Let us know if that works for ya 

When I was riding a pregnant mare (she wasn't in trimester yet) I had a little bit of a chair seat but after doing those exercises it improved.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

freia said:


> Yes, it's an old AP Passier pancake saddle with a slight jumping flap (VS flap).


I think that's part of the issue. Some jumping saddles don't get you in a truly balanced position until you actually 2-point or jump.

Try riding him in a dressage saddle if you can get one that fits him and see if that makes a difference. Or another jump/GP saddle with the stirrup bars farther back.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Bit against the grain but have you tried shortening your stirrups? I have an AP saddle that puts me in the most awful chair seat until I shorten my stirrups to jumping length and then my position is acceptable.

My close contact saddle is absolutely fine, but of course I haven't ridden in it with longer stirrups - I ride in my CC to jump, and my dressage to do flatwork/trails, so I don't really have to change my stirrups. I have lent my AP to a friend for now, because she doesn't have a saddle to jump in that fits her horse, and I'm not using it.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> Bit against the grain but have you tried shortening your stirrups? I have an AP saddle that puts me in the most awful chair seat until I shorten my stirrups to jumping length and then my position is acceptable.


That makes sense.


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

Thanks for the very interesting suggestions! I hadn't thought of most of these, but it makes perfect sense.

I have the forward-flap A/P because the trails I ride have a lot of obstacles over steep, rough terrain, and we do a lot of centering and some light jumping over obstacles. I spend a lot of time in 2-point, and I find I can do a very balanced 2-point in this saddle (plus I'm really comfy in it, and so is the horse). That would make sense. If it's designed for a good 2-point, the sit-down position might not be quite optimal. I should try to get a pic of myself in the 2-point on it to compare.

I had never thought of shortening my stirrups. That seems counter-intuitive, but it certainly isn't difficult to try!
I can tell my next ride on the wide-body is going to involve a lot of experimentation. This will be fun. I think I'll learn a lot. Good thing my mount is a patient boy.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

I ride western and I get all sorts of things with my wide body!! Chair seat, legs sticking strait out on sides. I asked my husband after looking at pics he took of me, I said OMG! What is wrong with my feet? They stick strait out, omg my posture is horrible. He was the one that pointed out that my horse is a tank and its just him. LOL!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Chair seats happen bc you need to work on your should-hip-heel lineup, and shouldn't be affected by the width of your horse. I owned "Trogdor" (2004, RIP) AND "Corporal" (1982-2009, RIP) and rode them both frequently. Trogdor (TWH)was 16'2hh and had a wide back. Corporal was a slim, 15'1hh Arabian. My seat didn't change. 
Here is how to fix it.
Pretend that you are a Native American on your war pony and riding a saddle that you stole from the US Army, but the stirrups aren't there. Seriously, THIS is the natural riding position. Let your legs hang down and your toes point naturally down, too. 
Practice riding in the arena without stirrups and work on a VERY DEEP SEAT. After about 1/2 an hour you should start feeling heavy in the saddle.
When you pick up your stirrups again watch your TOES. If you can see your toe than it is too far forward and you are riding with a chair seat, your weight behind the vertical. Keep checking your toes. They should slip backwards_ just behind_ the point where it can peek forward for you to see.
It's ALL in the practice. Happy practicing!! =D


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think a certain amount of chair seat is unavoidable if the horse is so wide that it would force your hips into a very unnatural position to try and force the leg to be more vertical. That's why when people look at a wide horse and say , "he must be really comfy to ride, he looks like a pillow" , they are wrong. A really wide horse is often much less comfy to ride than a more narrow horse.

you look fine on him and if he is not objecting, then just ride.

BTW, where was that photo taken? (I am from WA )


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Corporal said:


> Chair seats happen bc you need to work on your should-hip-heel lineup, and shouldn't be affected by the width of your horse...Seriously, THIS is the natural riding position..."


A lot depends on the rider, horse, and saddle. The natural riding position is one that doesn't fight gravity. That means your butt should be in the lowest part of the saddle, and your stirrup straps vertical.

With my western saddle, that WILL mean a chair seat. With my jump saddle, it means a mild chair seat - although it is my favorite saddle for 2 point. With my Aussie-style saddles, it also puts me in a mild chair seat - about heel-belt buckle alignment. I don't own a dressage saddle, but I would like to try one someday to see if it puts me in a hip-heel alignment. I'm guessing it would - on a narrow horse.

When I took up riding at 50, I always had a chair seat. 40 years of daily jogging gave me such tight hips that no way - no how would my heels ever align with my hip. 4 years of regular riding has loosened me up some.

But on a wide horse, with MY body, trying for hip-heel alignment would force me to squeeze with my knees. I do enough of that already! And that is, IMHO, a much worse fault than a chair seat.

The only horse I've ridden bareback put me in a chair seat as well. Based on ancient Greek art, I don't think I"m the only one...


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

JUST MHO, bsms. Take it with a grain of salt. Re: your examples, the first is Ancient Greek, ~500 BC and it an artist's depiction with poetic license with the human and the horse. The 2nd is an Ancient Roman frieze (sp?). If you straighten that one out, you will see the shoulder-hip-heel that line up correctly, as the Romans didn't ride with stirrups, and prided themselves on their illusionist artwork. Stirrups happened after the Mongol invasion bc they invented the stirrup. The 3rd is probably an ancient Roman or Greek coin. I'm thinking that the rider's leg had to line up with the body of the horse so that there were fewer pieces of precious metal sticking out that might break off. Therefore, the bent leg. Coins were minted from gold and silver mostly then, and truely worth their weight.
I don't care if somebody wants to ride with a chair seat, unless they are my riding student.
I've worked very hard on my own seat to get rid of the tendancy which I think most of us have.


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## DressageDreamer (Feb 29, 2012)

I don't think using a dressage saddle "puts" you in the right alignment. You still have to work at proper positioning. Doing the warrior pose stance helps stretch the hips and thighs and really got my hips to open up without killing me all the time.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Actually, you would have to tilt the roman horse into a 45 deg nose dive to get hip-heel alignment. The ancient world wasn't concerned with scientific accuracy in art, but I'd be hard pressed to find any examples of them riding in "the natural riding position". Which, if it was truly natural, is something we wouldn't need to work toward.

If I sit relaxed on a fence rail, my heels would come under my hip, and my toes would be aligned (mostly) with the fence rail. If I try to straddle a 50 gal drum, my thighs will go forward, my feet hang under my knees, and my feet will probably be turned out. That happens when I switch from a skinny horse to a very wide one also.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

DressageDreamer said:


> I don't think using a dressage saddle "puts" you in the right alignment...


I meant it in terms of saddle design. If the stirrup bars are too far forward of the lowest part of the seat for an individual's body, then gravity will keep pulling their feet forward. Jump saddles tend to put the stirrup bar further forward, because they are most concerned with balance when a faster moving horse is jumping. All other things being equal, a dressage saddle should have the bars closer to the deepest part of the seat, to encourage a hip-heel-shoulder alignment.

One sees the same thing in western saddles. A cutting saddle tends to have the stirrups hang forward, forcing a chair seat. A WP saddle would keep the stirrups closer, to encourage heel-hip alignment.

My youngest daughter insists on riding a western saddle that is way too big for her. As a result, she has a huge chair seat that prevents her from posting discretely. Her posting is like a jack-in-the-box, but that is forced by the too large saddle she insists on using. A smaller saddle with the stirrups set closer to the deep part of the seat would do wonders for her riding - but what does a Dad know? Compared, I mean, to a 14 year old girl? :evil:


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## freia (Nov 3, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> I think a certain amount of chair seat is unavoidable if the horse is so wide that it would force your hips into a very unnatural position to try and force the leg to be more vertical. That's why when people look at a wide horse and say , "he must be really comfy to ride, he looks like a pillow" , they are wrong. A really wide horse is often much less comfy to ride than a more narrow horse.
> 
> you look fine on him and if he is not objecting, then just ride.
> 
> BTW, where was that photo taken? (I am from WA )


It's on Livingston Mountain near Camas. If it were a clearer day, you'd be able to see Mt Adams and Mt hood peeking out from somewhere. But since you're in Washington, you know there have been no clear days in a while


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Haha Corporal you clearly don't have super short stumpy legs then 
Trust me when I say, with 'uber short legs, riding a tank of a horse, it is physically impossible to get an ear-shoulder-hip-heel line without a significant degree of pain and effort. I was riding a 16.2hh WB mare for a while, and she was so wide that her back was like a table. My thighs were pushed out so far on her that if I'd tried to drop my knees and bring my lower leg back under my seat, I probably would have torn a few ligaments in the old hips!!! Thank god she was easy to sit on so I didn't have to attempt to rise-trot her


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## calicokatt (Mar 5, 2012)

If you're riding the horse for fun, and your seat is balanced and secure, it doesn't really matter where your legs are. 
Riding on your seat bones does not automatically put your legs forward, unless you have poor posture to begin with. And riding on your pubic bones doesn't automatically put you in a good position (I happen to think its much less secure than riding with a deeper seat, on the seat bones, with good upright posture, but it IS easier to do and look pretty.)


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

calicokatt said:


> If you're riding the horse for fun, and your seat is balanced and secure, it doesn't really matter where your legs are.
> *Riding on your seat bones does not automatically put your legs forward, unless you have poor posture to begin with. And riding on your pubic bones doesn't automatically put you in a good position* (I happen to think its much less secure than riding with a deeper seat, on the seat bones, with good upright posture, but it IS easier to do and look pretty.)


True, though if you don't fit the saddle correctly then it makes you sit in a certain position and that can throw off your legs.


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