# When a horse kills a person



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm on the fence with that one. Really think it comes down to personal reasons, grief, etc. Just an example of this and a little story from my father: 

Way back before I was born when my father was full on taking in and retraining problem horses, he bought a 12 year old fish eyed paint stallion who kicked his owner in the head and put him in a coma. He ended up passing away, and his wife didn't have the heart to shoot it. 

To my father that was a new challenge. He threw him in the stocks, threw the saddle on and started the 18 mile ride home. He flipped over, laid down, bucked and fought his way home and was put into heavy work. He was never safe in the slightest, but could he ever work. He was sold to a guy who worked cows with him, and did he ever get the job done. He could work them without a rider. He remained a nasty nasty kicker but never seriously hurt anyone again, and ended up colicing and dying a few years later. 

I would have killed this animal without pity. There are SO MANY other horses who deserve homes, that won't try to kill you. 

Personally if there was a freak accident I wouldn't think twice about buying a horse that's killed it's owner. Especially if it was a solid trail horse.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Rain Shadow said:


> What if its a freak accident? Horse stumbled, rider went over the head and horse landed on them for example. Or just a freak fall that broke the riders neck.
> 
> Should the horse be put down for something that's not really their fault?
> 
> ...


I don't think in my circle this would be a question. Most of us consider that every time we ride we put our lives at risk. 
I wouldn't have put the first horse down. We have no knowledge of why the horse was "being bratty." The rider made a big mistake, spurring a horse that was adamantly refusing for some reason that to the horse was non-optional. I've known horses that have gone over for similar reasons and not killed the rider. They're good horses. I don't believe horses should ever be put down because a rider was stupid and got themselves killed. I've heard of so many cases where riders were idiotic and nearly got themselves killed. Riding on narcotics or drunk, you are not in a right state if a horse gets spooked. How can the horse be blamed at all if you break your neck and die?

This reminds me of a great little horse I knew. He was very sweet and mellow. He was kept in a stall next to my horse at a boarding barn. The owners never let him out of the stall for several months. They said he was lame, so couldn't be turned out. He sat in there in torture, all alone during the day while the other horses went outside. Yet he remained very sweet. 

Finally the owners turned him out in the arena, loose, and he bucked and bolted around, injuring his shoulder. So they put him back inside his stall for a couple more months. He wasn't even walked outside the stall door. After all this time, the owner sold the horse to someone who knew this history. 

The buyer rode the horse in the arena and he seemed sound. A week later, they took him on a five hour ride on a ranch, working cattle. After five hours, the horse finally refused to go forward. He was whipped and spurred, and he flipped over backward on the owner. The owner was seriously injured, and his wife shot the horse. When I heard about this it made me so angry. Those peoples' stupidity caused the horse's death. It had nothing to do with that lovely animal.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

If the horse is TRULY dangerous then yes it should be put down.

If it's due to human stupidity or just a freak thing like a stumble then no.

There's been a couple of times I would have shot a horse if I'd had a loaded gun on me but after I had a while to cool down I no longer wanted to shoot them and one of those times was when I was laying on the ground with a horse on top of me. Luckily the saddle horn dug into my knee instead of my chest.


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

I don't know. I don't want to sound harsh but I don't think the horse should have been put down because it flipped over and the man was killed. It was an accident. I would doubt the horse intentionally flipped itself in order to kill the rider. I don't think the horse should suffer for that. Also if the horse was in training with the man then I would assume it wasn't his horse. 


My horse flipped with me once or so I am told. It was due to my lack of experience, her being green, a harsh bit in novice hands, stress and an unbalanced horse. I was lucky and didn't get hurt. The horse did. But it could have gone another way. 


As humans ( and I am lumping us all together) we expect these horses to do what we want and will use whatever it takes to get them to obey. I think what they really are is often lost sight of. They are horses. Prey animals with a flight response to fear. They panic if confined and restrained because they cannot escape and their go to move is of course escape, running away. So we put restraints on them and put them into little spaces and then invade that space and get on their back and we are surprised when accidents happen. What do we reasonably expect to happen. 


I hear so many people giving horses human emotions and feelings. They give human words to the horse's thoughts, they treat them as though they are people with people feelings and views. They really are not. They are just horses that think and feel and act like horses. Sort of like with the animal communicators that tell you what your horse is thinking, feeling etc. How can they understand what the horse is saying? The last I checked horses don't think in words. 


I will stop now. I am sorry the man was killed. I am sad for the horse as well. It seems to me it could have just been an accident.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

When I was younger and there weren't as many really nice horses looking for homes, I probably would not have put the horse down. Today, a rearing horse and worse yet, one who will flip over, no question. Either put down or run through a sale. There are way too many nice horses out there wanting good homes to deal with the ones who don't want to go along and get along. 

For the accidental stumble, trip, fall, no I wouldn't kill the horse. That happens. If my husband shot me every time I tripped and fell over, I'd have been dead 100 times at least 10 years ago. An accident is one thing, deliberate is another. 

Oh, and regarding the rearing, if the horse does it on a loose rein that's one thing, but if the RIDER is all up in the horse's face and the horse has no other option that's a whole 'nuther story.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Sorry to hear that about the horse and the man who was killed. That is sad.
I can't really say unless I was in the situation/well, witnessed it. But if a horse is extra dangerous, yes they should be put down so they don't endanger the lives of others or themselves. That I agree with. However, if it was an ACCIDENT, like the horse tripped or fell etc, then no...I don't think the horse deserves to be put down. People think it's easier that way, to put them down but I don't agree with that. Depends on the situation for sure. You can't blame the horse if it was an accident. Things do happen; we risk our lives every day.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

Many years ago my sister fell from a horse and fractured her skull in 3 places. She was in a semi-coma for 6 weeks. Had to have extensive therapy to learn to walk, talk and feed herself again. The accident was entirely her fault (I saw it happen) 

I cannot tell you how many people asked my parents why they never had the horse put down. Even after explaining it was rider error and not the horses fault people still insisted that they could never look at an animal again after it hurt one of their children.

I continues to ride that horse a couple more years until I went to college and he had to be sold.

That being said - this scenario is just not relevant to horses. Think of the # of times dogs bite people and are never PTS. My daughter and I clean a vet clinic and you would be surprised at the # of quarantine dogs we get in for dog bites. And yes some are very aggressive. 

This situation is entirely hinged on the emotions of the people involved at that time.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

There are times when you simply cannot "over face" a horse, that is push it past a certain limit that it can't handle and then there are times when a horse rolling on you is just plain learned, bad behavior.

I have been rolled on twice in 35+ years of riding and fortunately was not badly hurt either time as I was in English saddles both times. The first time when I was in my 20's was on a young thoroughbred that had learned to drop and roll to get out of being ridden. Since I could usually stick on a horse they put us on the lunge line and sure enough, the colt dropped fast and rolled all the way over me even though I thought I was ready for it. No one was ever able to break that habit and the colt was put down. I've never run across a horse that did this since then and suspect that most are put down.

The second was on a formerly very abused mare while trail riding and to this day, I consider it completely my fault. None of the horses we were riding with that day would go down this very steep hill in the woods so, young, dummy me volunteered. I pushed that mare so hard that she freaked out, reared straight up and came down on top of me. The mare never did that again so it wasn't a learned behavior. A pure case of overfacing a horse by demanding something she could not mentally do and totally my fault for not recognizing it. 

People often put down horses after a bad accident, I think more so that they aren't reminded everyday of what happened. Sadly, the roll overs I have witnessed over many years have in virtually every case been caused by the rider and usually involved harsh bits with the rider giving no relief. The horse gets so frantic that there is no where to go except up. It's sad but there are worse ends for a horse than being euthanized.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

The first lesson horse I ever rode had broken her former owner's neck. She stopped dead at a canter, the rider flew forward and hit the ground head first. 

My instructor took her on and did some re-training and stayed on top of her with tune ups. She was a good lesson horse, at least for me. 

My answer would be...it depends on the circumstances.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I have known a few malicious flippers. They have learned they can get a person off that way, and have no care for their own personal safety either. (I have seen horses die this way too) They should never have a person on their back and if they can live out their lives(which is expensive particularly for a dangerous large animal), then they should be PTS. 

If a horse flips because a human manhandles them into it, that is a different story.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

My neighbor was training a 4 year old Morgan gelding. He had about 10 rides on him. We had trailered to a park and were getting ready to ride out with a group when the Morgan suddenly reared up and came over on his rider. To this day, we have no idea why he did that. The rein was not tight. He had trailered successfully on a ride the week before. The horse was not nervous or upset. Luckily, my neighbor was only badly bruised.

My neighbor gave the horse back to the place where he bought him, and a nice woman bought him. He never reared with her ever, never gave her a moment's problem. She loves him and rides him everywhere. How sad if my neighbor had put him down. 

One of my own horses, that I ride every other day, came over on me every time I asked her to do something she didn't want to do. I was very very careful with asking her for things, just little bitty baby steps. Now she's the best horse ever. I wouldn't sell her for $6,000,000. I love riding her. She takes beginners for rides. I'm so glad no one had the chance to euthanize her.

I'm not saying all horses that come over on their riders can be rehabilitated. But certainly some can.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

The main thing is, do you have the time and desire to rehab such a horse, and how much damage did the horse do when it flipped over on you? If none, and the rider is young, likely the horse will live. If there are a lot of injuries and/or the owner is older (in my case almost 60), then no, there's not much chance because I don't have the time, desire or physical ability to ensure that I'll be safe during the rehab. I would not sell such a horse on, so there's only one answer at that point.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

I also think it depends on the situation. 

One of my friend's TB mares, which I've posted about before, flipped on her rider (not my friend) several years ago. She's blind and from my understanding it was a windy day, so she was basically missing two of her senses at that point. The rider insisted to push her through when she got nervous and she freaked. That lady got hurt pretty bad.

While a little antsy she's a very sweet mare and I'm glad she wasn't PTS. My friend that owns her has ridden her out on trails bareback since the accident with no issues. So in that case, even though I do not know the whole story, I believe she is a good horse, plus she's only like 9. I've been working with her some recently and she's pretty easy going, just like I said, a little antsy at times. 

On the other hand, if a horse did things like this with the intention of hurting or even killing their rider, then they are dangerous. In those cases even someone with a LOT of experience should really consider carefully if its worth the risk. If not and the horse can't be safe again, then it should be PTS to avoid a worse fate being sent to slaughter or dead in relation to another accident.


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

This is a serious question, as my horse experience is limited to years, not decades. 


Do horses ever flip over on purpose? As a way to get out of work? To hurt people? 


I have trouble thinking that they do, since they can often end up dead or worse themselves. Also I would think a horse wouldn't chose to be upside down on the ground ever during times of stress.


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

I think that depends. If the horse is beyond truly dangerous, that no amount of correct training could _maybe_ fix, then I agree horse should be put down. It's unfortunate, but for the best. 

If it was truly an accident, then nope, I don't agree with that at all. And, I'll likely get my head chewed off for this, but regarding an accident involving a horse flipping over, I agree that the horse likely didn't think "oh I'll just flip over now and kill my rider". Maybe the horse has a rearing problem, fine; but considering the horse was in for training, rider should have been aware if it were an on-going issue. And, if it were not an on-going issue, then sounds like of course it was an _accident_. 

My younger mare and I had a serious accident just over 6 years ago. I cracked my helmet wide open due to landing directly on my head, in turn my neck sprained and I slipped discs + fractured 2 bones in my lower spine. I have permanent (not complete) hearing loss due to the severity of the concussion. I still have that mare. She is a saint beyond words. She has her moments, like any horse, but even so she is a good horse and would never mean to injure anyone. She takes care of her rider. Accidents happen. I'd never forgive myself if she had been put down due to an accident that was neither of our faults.


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## tim62988 (Aug 30, 2012)

I think a lot has to do with the horse's history, the situation and what the owner/rider is willing to deal with.

if it's a one time deal that is a different story, if the horse makes a habit of something then in my opinion I can't in good faith sell someone a horse that has a dangerous personality or a dangerous habit and I sure as heck don't want to deal with a dangerous habit/personality. I know a lot of people will say anything to get their money back out of a bad horse, but I try to be honest and couldn't live with myself if someone bought a horse thinking it was a sound minded horse that is actually a nut job then went out and got hurt by it


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

@lightning -yes. Some truly rank horses can learn to get a rider off by flipping. This is a truly evil trick and is considered a end all for most people. This means a horse truly does not care about their own life or the riders. Most horses have a sense of self-preservation and flipping is normally not in their "usual" repertoire unless a person manual flips them i.e. Applies pressure to the mouth and force forward in a ridiculous way will make some horses go up in an exaggerated way... most will never do it again once they realize what they did...


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

For the horse that is _truly_ dangerous and means to do serious harm, YES, they should be put down. There are too many horses in this world that it is not worth it to try to work with the ones that want to do damage to you. 

Yes, in a sense, one could argue that any vicious horse like this has been "created" by poor or incorrect handling by humans. And one could argue that these horses truly have "a screw loose" and it would have been that way anyway no matter the handling.

Either way, it's not worth my* LIFE* to work with a horse that wants to hurt me. 

As far as a horse being bratty, spoiled, misbehaving, bucking, etc. that is different than a horse than intends to hurt. If they just need some manners (or maybe have a pain issue the owner has not addressed), they just need to be taught those manners (or have the pain fixed) and then they are just fine. Certainly those horses do not warrant being put down. They just need training. 

When I was training horses for people when I was in college, I did 60 days on a 3-year-old for my neighbor. She really had been untouched besides halter broke. After 30 days, I hadn't even set foot out of the round pen yet. Did get her going good enough to ride her out-and-about at all 3 gaits, but I never trusted that horse for _one second_. She just had this "look" in her eye, and tried SO many times to buck me off. And meant it. Something wasn't right. I warned her owner up and down. Sure enough, first ride at home and she got bucked off. She did the right thing and then sent the horse down the road. Not worth it. 

She's the only horse I've ever known that was MEAN for no reason but to "get you". But you sure recognize it when you see it.

OP, for the situation in question where your friend's husband was killed ... that sounds more like a freak accident where the horse went over and hit the rider where it counts. Very unfortunate and sad, but it sounds like the horse was trying to "get out" of the situation and didn't intentionally go over with a purpose to hurt the rider. Of course, none of us were there to see what really happened or what the mindset of the horse was. Rearing can be a hard habit to fix or train (and of course, very dangerous). But just because a horse is a rearer, doesn't mean they are intending to kill. Could be pain-related or behavioral-related.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

I think it really depends on the situation. About 12 years ago, a family friend's 9 year old daughter was killed by her horse. The cattle had gotten out and so the parents left their two younger daughters under the supervision of their teenage son. He got distracted by something and the two sisters decided they wanted to go for a horseback ride. The 9 year old saddled up her horse and was walking the horse with her younger sister on his back. This whole thing should have been a minor incident, except for reasons we'll never know, she decided to tie the lead rope around her waist. Something spooked the horse, the younger sister was thrown and the horse took off. The lead rope didn't break or let go and I'm sure you guys can fill in the rest. 

The parents kept that horse for several years and may actually still have it. In this case, it really was a freak accident and the horse was just being a horse, doing what they sometimes do. I don't think he had any intention to do harm to his handler. There are so many variables that all depend on the rider's and horse's experience. Like this case, so many horse fatalities are related to inexperience and lack of understanding of what you do and do not do. I think if the horse has shown an escalating pattern of dangerous behaviour with experienced people who understand how to correct these behaviours and they end up killing someone, it's probably best for all involved that they are humanely euthanized.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Very sorry to hear about this man, and the horse. 

This is a high risk activity. We are good at being complacent about dangerous things that we have become comfortable doing. 

I wouldn't nitpick the people involved, they have been through enough to not get armchair horsemanship. I'd like to know what lead to the flip though, I think many people when they hear a story like this would. 

I have to agree though, that there are too many nice horses out there to deal with ones with dangerous tendencies. I don't have the crash dummy gene.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

A horse that rears and goes over backwards is a ticking time bomb. Only the most courageous and knowledgeable trainers should try to correct this problem. Cheri, a moderator on HF (miss her) described her method and it wasn't easy nor pretty. 

As a youth, I saw a girl get killed the same way as the OP described, I still remember the blood coming out of her ears. The horse in question was not euth'ed, but it was not ridden anymore either, it was owned by her grandparents who let it live out it's years on their acreage to keep the grass down. I heard they allowed no one to ever to ride it. 

I personally would have euth any horse that does that, it's a ticking time bomb, that I would rather not chance. As far as riders falling from bolting or bucking horses and killing or injuring themselves, no, those horses would live to redeem themselves.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree it depends
A horse that is truly dangerous, has learned to rear and go over, when he balks, should be put down.
A horse, that goes over, due to rider error-no


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## Werecat (Aug 23, 2015)

lightning said:


> I don't know. I don't want to sound harsh but I don't think the horse should have been put down because it flipped over and the man was killed. It was an accident. I would doubt the horse intentionally flipped itself in order to kill the rider. I don't think the horse should suffer for that. Also if the horse was in training with the man then I would assume it wasn't his horse.
> 
> 
> My horse flipped with me once or so I am told. It was due to my lack of experience, her being green, a harsh bit in novice hands, stress and an unbalanced horse. I was lucky and didn't get hurt. The horse did. But it could have gone another way.
> ...


My exact feelings.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Ugh, this is a touchy subject.

If it's a freak thing, I would NEVER want to euth the horse. If it was not an intentional accident, I see no sense in it.

On the other hand, I once knew a horse who grabbed someone by the throat and killed them. Stomped them into the ground. At that point you have a choice, either you play for keeps and have to do what you have to do to make that horse respectful, or you put it down.

That horse, we fixed. With a 2x4. Literally broke his face with it when he came after me. Vet put him back together. Never so much as pinned an ear at somebody again, ever. Lived a long happy life, I think he's still alive but he's retired now. Showed a little bit, won some money, was a decent ranch horse. So the school of hard knocks is worth it.

If it was a rearing horse, I don't know. I'll pull a rearing horse over backwards if they're dangerous. I'll whack them over the head. But I still am more weary of them than I am that horse who came after me, because I have less control on his back then I do on the ground, and if he flips there's no guarantee I'll see it coming.

Same with the issue of no witnesses. I assume if I was ever found dead with Selena in an arena somewhere, people would know she did not intentionally kill me. Zoey, however, in her youth was a bad kicker before I fixed her. She may still decide to kick me in the head one day for all I know. I think the point is that it would depend on the horse, and not really just because someone found me dead somewhere.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

In over 50 years, I've had only one horse try to specifically kill me. Threw both barrels right at my head. I threw myself backwards and heard the wind whistle past my ears. The boss had him on the meat truck the next day. 

More recently I was called to evaluate one who had reared and put his owner out the back door and in the hospital with a concussion. 3/4 way around the arena, it started balking. I pushed forward with my legs, making double sure to stay out of its' mouth. The horse reared. As soon as it was on the ground, I spun it both ways and tried forward again. Another rear. I reversed direction, and it went forward again about halfway around. When it started balking again, I pushed with my legs and gave it a spank with the reins. I made sure I was out of its' mouth with a completely slack rein. I had all the doors open, but the horse chose the elevator again. The boss called to me to put the horse away. After consulting with the owner, that one was "sold south", as the BO euphemistically puts it. 

I cant think of a reason for keeping a dangerous horse around.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

To me, this is all a question of "why". I would take time to find out exactly why it happened (if possible). Does the horse truly have a screw loose and this is going to be a repeated problem or was he simply way over-loaded by the rider or in pain and this was his instinctual reaction? What are the odds that this type of reaction will happen again?


Very few horses set out to hurt people on purpose. Most injuries are a result of accident or pilot error (which includes poor training).


For those horses that are determined to hurt people or who have been terrorized or so poorly trained that they are unredeemable, then absolutely euthing is a good idea. However, if it turns out it was a one-time thing, then that might have been a waste of a good horse.


Good example for this is a mare my Dad trained in the 80s. She was one heck of a reining horse, he'd been riding and showing her for months and she was just the sweetest thing. We even have a picture of him holding me in front of him in the saddle on her when I was about 5 months old. At the time, she was one of the most trusted horses in the barn. Then one day, he was working circles on her in the pasture and out of nowhere, she reared up and flipped over on him, shattering his leg. It almost killed him; probably would have if a friend hadn't stopped by for a visit about 10 minutes after it happened and found him. To this day nobody has any idea what caused it but she had never done anything like it before and she never did anything like that again. Dad suspects that she either got bitten by something or maybe a grasshopper flew up her nose. She didn't intend to hurt him, she just reacted on instinct and he ended up hurt.


On the other hand, Dad used to train for an Appaloosa breeder in Kansas. He had this one stud who was absolutely stunning. Won every halter class he entered and most the WP classes too, always placed high in the calf roping and did a decent job team roping. Multiple world champion stud, but he was absolutely the most dangerous horse Dad ever handled. He had to carry a length of 3/8ths chain to beat the horse back and keep him mostly in line (abusive, yes, but he did what he had to do to stay mostly safe). They eventually came to a sort of understanding where AQ wouldn't try to kill Dad _every_ time he saw him. He started waiting until he thought Dad wasn't paying attention. Eventually, Dad left their employ and told the new trainer to not attempt to handle that horse unless you had something in your hand that could hurt him to get him off you. 2 months later that trainer nearly died after going into AQ's stall with nothing more than a buggy whip. Ironically enough, AQ got a dose of hay infested with blister beetles shortly after that, which was probably a blessing in disguise; the last thing the world needed was for that horse to procreate. I still believe he was killed on purpose, but insurance doesn't pay out if the COD is listed as "euthanized because he was murderous and insane" :? .




Anyway, sorry for rambling, but to me, it all comes down to intent. If the horse intended harm, then it needs put down. If they didn't, then I'd think about things with a clear head before making the decision.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Tough subject, for sure.

I haven't personally ever known a truly dangerous "out to hurt a person" horse, but did hear a story of one. 

It was a stallion, one the owner walked to and from his paddock every day for several years. It was not the only stallion she had, in fact another stallion was in the next paddock. He was her favorite horse and the sweetest too. 

So one day she is leading the first stallion into the barn for feeding, and he suddenly turned on her for no apparent reason. He grabbed her by the arm, lifted her in the air and started shaking her. Amazingly she was saved by the sweet stallion, who leaped the fence and challenged the first stallion. He dropped the lady and she ran for the barn to call for help. 

Neither horse was seriously injured, but the owner nearly lost her arm. The stallion that attacked her was a very valuable stud. She did keep him, but she never again walked him by herself and always carried a whip and a knife with her. 

Rearing horses have always been portrayed as more dangerous than horses that buck, and honestly I am not really sure why that is. A horse can't rear if they are moving, but a horse can buck at any gait or just standing. 

IMO a horse rears from fear, or too much stress, not anger; however bucking seems to be done in anger or at least a strong refusal. Many horses buck for fun. I see it frequently when horses are turned out after a long trip. Even the most gentle of the herd will take off bucking and farting! 

I've owned many horses over the years that were good horses that just needed to be rehabilitated. Most if not all of them were owned by people who really didn't have a clue. 

Most horses are not bad, but there are some that just can't be safely handled except by experts.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Some horses rear as a refusal to go forward. Try to get the rank horse to go forward... they go higher... you spin them. But a true rogue knows that trick already and starts upping the ante. 

Bucking at least has some forward to it already so you can encourage forward as long as you can sit it. Rearing you have lost the forward and the horse is giving you the middle finger. It is incredibly dangerous and can only get worse.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The rearing thing would depend on why the horse reared, quite often its the rider or bad training that's to blame in which case why punish the horse? 
We had a 14.2 pony that had been trained to rear to cue (not by us), he'd also do it if he misinterpreted a cue. He was totally safe when he reared and never went over but I suppose if a novice had been put on him that didn't know him they could have pulled him over if they upset his balance. 
My first husband was in the Household Cavalry mounted division for a while, one of the horses there deliberately flipped over and killed the rider but he was known to have been mean to that horse many times and should have been booted out. They didn't shoot her and she never did it again


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

I agree, it depends on the horse and situation. 



If it’s an accident, I’d hate to think that any of the horses I worked with could’ve been put down because of something that happened to me or anyone else. However, in extreme cases, if there is clear intent to hurt time after time and training has little or no impact, then it could be considered. 



They don’t understand the consequences of their actions whether it’s rearing and flipping over, kicking or spooking. I’ve had a number of near misses, which include being kicked over my heart and being taken too far into a road when my quietest gelding spooked at cows in a field; we were very lucky as it had the potential to be a serious accident for both of us. I don’t blame any of them.


However, I’ve also seen horses use their size and power to bully others.


One mare had learnt to rear when you put a foot in her stirrup and was often at risk of flipping over and/or dragging you. Despite health checks and training she became increasingly impossible to ride and handle. Eventually, the owners decided to keep her as a companion horse.


I also had the misfortune of working with a gelding who would charge you with teeth bared and lashing out with his front feet. He was sold on by his owner. 



Possibly the worst was a mare who was so nasty that she could only be handled in pairs with one person carrying a broom to protect the other. She was ridden but with great difficulty as she had every trick in the book to get the rider on the ground where she would then go for them. Unfortunately, she was even too dangerous to go free in a field or hang her head over her door. I don’t know what happened to her and I don’t know why the owners kept her. I was a child at the time but I remember thinking that the owners were either extremely kind keeping her despite her problems or cruel for keeping such a disturbed and dangerous animal alive. 



So, I think that where someone is at risk, the horse has lost its purpose and clearly has severe issues then maybe it should be considered.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Again it depends on the situation. 

An elderly gentleman had always Fix Hunted and Point to Pointed TBs off the track. When his last horse retired his daughter asked us to find him a suitable hunter. 
We found a lovely grey gelding, had hunted in Ireland and knew his job.m

The pair were well suited and unofficially he did say he wished he had found something more sensible years before! 
They had been out with hounds and he was hacking back home in the dark. He was on a pavement (sidewalk) when a big lorry went past. The driver said he had passed them slowly and they were both trotting along happily when he looked in his mirror before accelerating, then a few yards down the road the horse came galloping past him without the rider. He stopped and ran back to find the man dead. He had broken his neck in the fall. 

No one thought it was anything bar a freak accident. The horse came back to us to be sold. I had him out hunting and was walking through some thickish woods for absolutely no known reason that horse suddenly freaked as I leant forward to go under a low branch. I didn't stand a chance and was knocked off by the branch, horse took off and was caught by another rider. He was a wreck when brought back to me, shaking and sweating. Something told me not to remount him and I took him home. 

Next day he was fine and I rode him out. Then someone else rode him and he freaked as they mounted. Vet couldn't find anything wrong but something was as this horse was nothing but a kind animal. The decision was taken to euthanise him and when he was at the kennels it was found he had a cancer growing on his withers. 

The right decision had been made for the horse and the humans. 

Majority of horses can be fixed - whether it is worth or not is up to whoever owns the animal. 

Horses that have learned to rear usually do not flip over flat onto their backs. They will go over onto their sides and the experienced rider will feel the point of no return and bail.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

They left out the part about the horse breaking the tree in your custom made saddle.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

Ha ha, @DreamCatcher, you are right! I loved that video @Foxhunter. 

My amazing neighbor Erica (I call her Erica Miss America because she is so beautiful, talented, and clever) is a skilled horse trainer and cures rearing horses that way. I've always wondered what she does and how she does it. Now I know. Of course, she is fearless and 23. She says modestly, "Oh, I just pull them over backwards a couple of times." Brave girl.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Yea, I know a trainer who did that. She says it is better than the horse killing people...but She also has killed a number of horses that way. It just takes hitting their atlas or tweaking their neck wrong. 

I had a three month old colt die when he flipped himself over a bee sting. Have you ever watched a horse die like that? I won't describe it for you. He didn't last long enough for me to get the gun, but it was terrible death.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

knightrider said:


> Ha ha, @DreamCatcher, you are right! I loved that video @Foxhunter.
> 
> My amazing neighbor Erica (I call her Erica Miss America because she is so beautiful, talented, and clever) is a skilled horse trainer and cures rearing horses that way. I've always wondered what she does and how she does it. Now I know. Of course, she is fearless and 23. She says modestly, "Oh, I just pull them over backwards a couple of times." Brave girl.



He did not pull that horse over, it flipped on its own. Big difference.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> Again it depends on the situation.
> 
> An elderly gentleman had always Fix Hunted and Point to Pointed TBs off the track. When his last horse retired his daughter asked us to find him a suitable hunter.
> We found a lovely grey gelding, had hunted in Ireland and knew his job.m
> ...


How awful for that gentleman and the horse. Even if you can't find a reason . . . There is usually a reason.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I would never say that a horse killed a person because it flipped over. 

I would have to say that for me to say a horse killed a person would mean it had deliberately attacked and mauled them.

A horse that has a rotational fall, landing on and killing the rider would not be classed as a killer.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I think I will go against the popular opinion here. Regardless of intent on the horses part, if a horse is dangerous, it's dangerous. If a horse develops a condition which makes him dangerous to people, I think it should be put down. I don't see euthanasia as punishment for bad behavour, but a necessary evil to preserve human life.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I have, unfortunately, seen a few people die because of horse-related accidents. Several more injured for life because of them.

But rarely is a horse _mean_ enough to do it on purpose. 

I have only put one down because it had no sense of self preservation and would hurt someone just to avoid work or being handled. I wasn't sure he'd make a decent horse when I got him. Orphaned foal, raised by people with some problems of their own, worked pulling logs at 18 mos. Bad deal. He would get himself in terrible jams. Really lacked all sense. I couldn't sell him. I couldn't let him get in a fatal accident by his own poor judgment. I put him down.

I've never known anyone to euthanize a horse when the person died from an accident. Sell - yes. But not put down.

I did have a really good looking grey gelding that I was going to euthanize. He had a neurological condition that made him a bit unpredictable. But a sheep herder asked to have him. Wasn't going to ride him. Just felt a kinship with the horse and hoped the horse would enjoy some years up in the high country. They were very good for each other, I think, and the grey lived a long life with a fellow that treated him like a child (though with good horsemanship skills!). That doesn't happen often.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

See now Horsef, that whole theory implies that human life is worth more than horse life, and that is something I never fathomed. But that's just me.


On the topic of pulling one over, I absolutely will if they're dangerous rearers. And I won't stop one from going over either. I've had a handful of colts who were just plain stupid. Few and far between, but man, dumb as rocks. Bit them up the first time and they're all eager to throw themselves on the ground. Whatever. Go ahead. Odds are the reins won't break, they'll get up, snort, huff and puff, and we'll continue our session. I don't negotiate with terrorists. I'm sorry, but I'm a firm believer that stupid should hurt. So I'll make it hurt. 


If I'm pulling one over on purpose though it's always a last ditch effort. Either the horse is going over, or it's being killed. One or the other. Just like my story earlier with the 2x4 horse. I will do whatever I need to do to fix the horse, and that makes it simple. Some hard choices, some painful moments, but that in exchange for a lifetime they wouldn't normally get? Worth it, to me anyway. Humans are the idiots who decided to do this to the horses anyway, it's also our responsibility to take care of and fix what we damage.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

knightrider said:


> Ha ha, @DreamCatcher, you are right! I loved that video @Foxhunter.
> 
> My amazing neighbor Erica (I call her Erica Miss America because she is so beautiful, talented, and clever) is a skilled horse trainer and cures rearing horses that way. I've always wondered what she does and how she does it. Now I know. Of course, she is fearless and 23. She says modestly, "Oh, I just pull them over backwards a couple of times." Brave girl.


I would hope this trainer flipping horses isn't a regular thing for EVERY rearer . . . Plenty can be taught to quit without.

Flipping, unless it is a TRUE nasty rearer in the moment, not a "pops barely off the ground," breaks withers. I have a vet/chiro who hates the practice, as so many of these "cowboy" trainers out here decide everything they start will one day rear so they "proactively" flip them. Broken withers are shockingly common. Creates some **** fearful horses who are now IN PAIN. God help you if the horse is rearing out of pain in the first place!!!


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## Chapter (Aug 25, 2014)

Handlers and riders should be well aware of the risks when getting on or even just working with a horse on the ground. The horse didn't choose to be put into that situation and he did what felt necessary to him in the moment.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

On flipping a horse who rears- just my opinion: 

I have seen a horse die from being flipped. I have also seen one drop stone dead after someone clubbed him over the head during a rear. BUT I have seen more horses fixed this way than killed. I agree with sorrelhorse. You do whatever you have to do to fix a problem. If it may kill the horse, so be it. There are plenty more. 

A long time family friend had an absolutely stunning grade(draftXwhatever) stallion he bought off a breeding farm. He was a horrible rearer and way too big to be messing around with. Under harness he would flip himself over to get out of work. Over and over again. So the guy took a chunk of fire wood, hopped on over the harness and waited for him to come up. Right on cue, the horse reared and was hit in the head with the stick of wood. He was knocked out cold, completely, but awoke to be the most willing worker he's ever had after that. 

The guy was in that kind of predicament: either he was going to lose money anyway, have a useless horse that he couldn't sell, or he could fix it. If it died it would be one less mouth to feed. This was back in the time when a horse had to earn its keep, so today is different, but still. He did what he had to do and took the gamble.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> On flipping a horse who rears- just my opinion:
> 
> I have seen a horse die from being flipped. I have also seen one drop stone dead after someone clubbed him over the head during a rear. BUT I have seen more horses fixed this way than killed. I agree with sorrelhorse. You do whatever you have to do to fix a problem. If it may kill the horse, so be it. There are plenty more.


Sorry but nope. Nope nope nope. That's some kind of nasty disposable attitude. "One size fits all" is the worst kind of training, and frankly I'd never leave a horse in the care of someone who thought like this. Why even try? And I'm not particularly touchy-feely.

Put the horse down if you think they're so dangerous or try actual training. Kinder to everyone involved.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

EliRose said:


> Sorry but nope. Nope nope nope. That's some kind of nasty disposable attitude. "One size fits all" is the worst kind of training, and frankly I'd never leave a horse in the care of someone who thought like this. Why even try? And I'm not particularly touchy-feely.
> 
> Put the horse down if you think they're so dangerous or try actual training. Kinder to everyone involved.


It's when all "actual training" fails. You do what you have to do. I'm sorry you feel that way.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> It's when all "actual training" fails. You do what you have to do. I'm sorry you feel that way.


Problem is when trainers do it for _every_ rearing horse (which is what I was talking about), including popping babies.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

EliRose said:


> Problem is when trainers do it for _every_ rearing horse (which is what I was talking about), including popping babies.


Oh then yes! I agree!! I would never want to send a horse to a trainer that automatically thinks the answer is flipping or clubbing a horse. Because sometimes, that doesn't work either. But if it's a life or death situation, or a last resort where the next step is to put the horse down or send him to the meat wagon, by all means.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

My two cents? Unless the horse is intentionally trying to kill a person or a habit is so ingrained it can't be retrained then by all means euth the horse. Everyone in the long run will be better for it including the horse.

I have had a horse flip on me and I don't remember it. This was a bratty horse that would rear when trying to mount it. Once you were on her back she was fine. Well we were going for a trail ride and I offered to mount her before my little sister could. From what the other people that were there told me I had almost got completely on her when she went right up and over. It happened so quickly there was no way to avoid it in the moment. If I remember correctly the owner eventually sold her on down the road for a safer mount for her own kids.

I have also had horses rear on me and not go over but came pretty close and I can tell you from experience I would rather ride a horse that bucks than one that rears. 

I actually had this discussion with a friend when a video popped up on FB where a girl is trying to get a horse to go forward and it comes right up and over on her. This youtube link has the video in question in it. In my opinion the horse was giving the rider all the cues that he did not want to go forward and when she kept the pressure up(which she has big rowel spurs on) he went up and over. I also think that particular horse was in pain from the way his hind leg hesitated when he got up and ran.

Should that horse have been euth'd had the girl been seriously injured or killed? I don't think so. 

My sister had a horse that WILL come after you and she WILL NOT bluff. If she came for you, you better have had something on hand to beat her back with cause she fully intended to hurt you. THAT is the kind of horse I feel should be euth'd. She had learned to base her instincts more in the "fight" sense than flight. And she would NEVER back down from a fight. She can't be turned out with other horses cause she has killed pasture-mates in the past. But she is currently living as a pasture pet so I guess everything is ok, at least for now.







ETA: You only have to watch the first 15-20 seconds of the video.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

For me, I'd need to know more about the situation.

Flipping over and killing the rider is not necessarily a trip to the vet for the pink juice, IMO. A rider absolutely can create bad, and even dangerous reactions in a horse, and I don't think it's fair to the horse to overlook that.

I know one horse who flipped over and broke his rider's arm. Why? Because she was "disciplining" him by spurring him hard then yanking on the reins. The horse got so fired up, and confused, that he did what he thought he was asked to do, and went up. Unfortunately for the horse, he went up on a slippery spot and his hind legs slipped out from under him. Not at all the horse's fault.

I know another horse who reared and fell over sideways, breaking the rider's leg. This mare was a mare I had ridden a lot, and I felt she was a thoughtful and sensitive mare. I adored her. This rider was entirely too aggressive and the mare reared up, the rider yanked the horse to the side (I think trying to disengage the hindquarters?), the mare lost her balance and fell over sideways, breaking the rider's leg. Again, not the horse's fault.

Yet another horse I knew (he has since been sent on his way over the rainbow bridge) was a randomly dangerous animal. I watched him go absolutely berserk for no discernible reason (rider was riding him at a nice quiet trot on a loose rein) where all of a sudden he threw his head down and became a bucking bronc. He got so fired up and angry that he started charging through the jumps that were set up in the arena. Not over the jumps, THROUGH the jumps. Broke some standards in his rage. He was put down a couple of months later when the behavior started happening more frequently. Necropsy revealed an old neck injury that would flare up and pinch nerves, causing the horse huge amounts of pain until they got unpinched, which is why he would go from zero to insane so fast and abruptly.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Can't say I totally agree with the commentary on that video. the rider wasn't hitting the horse all that hard with her spurs, though using spurs to get a stuck horse to go forward is not the best choice, IMO.

and, she wasn't tellin the hrose to stop, either. 

what she was doing is 'begging' up front, and pushing behind. it's not that the horse was confused about being told go on one end and stop on the other. that horse WAS stopped. he was stuck, and the way he started to rock his body back onto his hind end should have told her that he was getting light in front, and she needed to change what she was doing to something that would get his front end down and going somewhere.

the back and forth see sawing of the hands isn't going to help. I think the best bet would be to put a bend in the hrose , now, while he's still on the ground. you have to 'break out' his hind legs and get them moving, so he pust some weight back on his front legs and isn't setting himself back and ready to go up.

but, I wasn't there. the only time I had a horse rear on me, I was so surprised, I just leaned forward to stay on, the hrose came down and proceeded to buck me off.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

I didn't pay attention to the commentary but when I saw the original video the girl used her spurs 16 times.


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