# Future Color???



## abbierose1656 (Aug 29, 2013)

This is my friends filly. I can't quite grasp the color she will mature to be. She has been growing black spots on her body as shown. Her dad was jet black, mom is a black buckskin. Any thoughts?? thanks


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## Pyrros (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm not quite sure what you mean by black buckskin? Do you mean she looks black but color tested buckskin or? I'm really curious, do you have any pictures showing the dam's coloring? Just based on the picture of the foal though I'd say she looks buckskin or smokey brown to me.

Edit to add I just realized maybe your friend meant black buckskin as in she's a black horse with cream, like a buckskin is bay with cream. If that is the case then the name for that is smokey black.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

The foal looks brown-based buckskin to me. I'm also a little confused by the term black buckskin, though. If both parents are black (with or without a cream gene present) then there wouldn't have been an agouti gene to pass on to the foal.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Looks like a smokey black. The foal coat is the brownish fuzz, where the new coat is coming in it is black. 

Horses can look really weird when they shed their foal coats. I saw a TB one time and he had black stripping down his legs- one side of the leg had shed, and the other side hadn't. He was a bay.


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## abbierose1656 (Aug 29, 2013)

The owner refers to her as a black buckskin. I also don't get the term. Her legs are jet black but her body is kinda like a really dark grey, almost black with dapples. Anyone know what that color is? I don't have a picture of her with me.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Smokey brown. She's really cute!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The problem with smoky brown is that if both parents are indeed black or smoky black, smoky brown is not possible.

OP, more pictures would be really helpful. Pictures of both the sire and dam would be best. And if possible, a picture of the foal in question fairly soon after birth, but dry, would be pretty handy too.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Sire must be super dark brown (like the stallion Gatsby for example), because the baby is definitely smokey brown IMO. Dam would then be smokey black, which is what they seem to be trying to describe with the term "black buckskin". Could be the other way around, too, of course. Pictures of sire and dam would help determine their colors, but regardless I'm quite confident that the foal is smokey brown.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm also leaning toward brownskin just based on his shade and what remains of his foal coat, but more pics of mom and dad would greatly help.

After all, some colors can be really sneaky and mimic other colors :wink:.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Smokey brown. 

From the description i'd bet that's what the dam is as well.


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## abbierose1656 (Aug 29, 2013)

When she was born she was a buckskin. I have a picture but i can just tell you she was a buckskin. Sire is a friesian, so literally jet black. I do beleive from you guy's description that the dam is a smokey black.


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

Is a sooty buckskin possible? I'm not sure how sooty appears on a foal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

If both parents are indeed black smokey brown is impossible foal could only be black or smokey black.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OP can you define black buckskin for us?

As mentioned pictures of foal and parents.

If she was a buckskin at birth she is a buckskin now. Shades may change but the colors/genetics don't. Sometimes there are little details that show what color she truly is which is why we want pictures


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## Pyrros (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm still leaning toward the mare being a smokey brown rather than black based on what I'm hearing. I definitely see some sort of cream on that foal. I don't believe sooty usually shows that early on foals, I may be wrong but I'm fairly confident that it doesn't show until they get a bit older.

And to the above poster, just because a horse 'looks' one color doesn't necessarily mean it is, genetics can do some crazy things! I've seen horses that from looking at them looked BLACK but they tested to be sorrel, and even one that turned out being palomino! That being said unless the foal was color tested to be buckskin there is no way to prove that just because she LOOKED buckskin at birth that she was actually buckskin. 

With that being said I'm still leaning toward both the mare and foal being smokey brown, or 'brownskin' as it is also called. I'm a little rusty on color and genetics, so I can't recall if a brown can have a bay. They're both agouti, just different forms of it. According to a few sites I poked around they can, in which case the foal COULD be buckskin (I'm still leaning toward smokey brown though) but again I'm not sure if the sites are even correct.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I'm wondering if the mare is a grulla. Many people confuse dun & buckskin.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

That foal is not a dun and if that's the **** in the background, there is no way she's a grulla. But there is a chance she's a smoky brown, just extremely dark, which wouldn't be entirely out of the ordinary based on how many browns are alsmost completely black.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

If the sire is purebred Friesian then it's extremely likely that he's homozygous black, no cream, so any agouti or cream must have come from the dam. 

I was wondering about grulla (with cream) as well, since that's the only color I can think of where the horse would appear to have a gray colored coat with dark points (aside from the actual gray gene) I don't think the foal got the dun gene, though, and that doesn't explain where the agouti could have come from.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Grayish colored kind of like this? I'm assuming darker than this one in particular though. Because this horse is smoky brown.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Looking at that photo, if the rear end behind the foal in question is the dam, I am feeling like she is smoky black. For those asking for clarification, "black buckskin" is another term for smoky black, or a black horse with a single cream gene.

Foal is definitely showing some sort of cream IMO. If that is the dam, she doesn't look smoky brown to me, she is just too dark all over. However, and here comes the disclaimer, that is a really, really, really, really bad photo to judge the mare's colour from - so I am in no way saying that I am 100% certain on that one.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I think we all agree the foal is either brown with cream or bay with cream. Which would be helped by info on the parents.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> I think we all agree the foal is either brown with cream or bay with cream. Which would be helped by info on the parents.


Actually no I don't agree. Mostly likely if mom is smokey black then baby can only be black or smokey black since there would be no agouti present.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Could the mare be seal bay? Like this V



























This is smokey Black V


















Could it be a sooty gene from the dam insted of a smokey gene?


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

I'd bet money the bottom two would test smokey brown. The more horses i've seen the less I think sooty expresses on a black base.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

KigerQueen said:


> Could it be a sooty gene from the dam insted of a smokey gene?


I am positive both those horses are smokey brown not sooty the first ones offspring back up that he is most likely brown as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Actually no I don't agree. Mostly likely if mom is smokey black then baby can only be black or smokey black since there would be no agouti present.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


True, just her foal coat (while bleached and dead) and in some places her new coat is just soo pale and buckskin-y lol. Guess we will wait on parent info.


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## Pyrros (Feb 10, 2012)

The mare CAN'T be just seal brown because the foal HAS to get the cream from somewhere, and it clearly has it. Given the sire is a friesian I'm positive he has no cream.

That means the mare would HAVE to be smokey black or smokey brown. I've never seen sooty show up on a foal that young anyway, I'm not even sure it can show up at that young of an age.

I'm fairly confident that foal and mare are both smokey brown, even if the mare may be an especially dark one.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

This foal begs the question... Were there any other stallions on site? Could she be an oops? Would love to see her tested.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

first, whats the difference between seal brown and brown? I thought seal bay was just a term to describe a brown?

second, what the heck is a smokey brown, and how would it be different from "brownskin"? are we referring to a brown with a cream gene in both cases?

I don't think any accurate conclusion can be reached without further photos of the dam.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I think (would need to double check) seal brown is just a brown horse, though there is another hypothetical gene (than regular brown causing it). Not sure on the technicalities. Either that or it's the same thing. I consider the first horse pictured seal brown and the others regular brown (see how much darker it is?) There is a horse in my barn too. Idk if that is just my definition though a "black" horse with some dark brown marks sometimes visible.

Brownskin = smokey brown.

Options are
black ( sorry Peppys!)
brown
bay
with cream. There is just some different terminology going on.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yogi - the top three horses pictured in the above post with the "sooty" horses are brown. All three of them. Just varying shades of brown.


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## abbierose1656 (Aug 29, 2013)

this is the mother with the baby


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## abbierose1656 (Aug 29, 2013)

Sorry my description was wrong for the dam. This is when she was just a day old


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

I know nothing about color except what I learned on this forum and I am going to take a guess and say..


Smokey black.


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## Pyrros (Feb 10, 2012)

After seeing the picture of the mare my vote is smokey brown ('brownskin') for both the mare and foal.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Yep. Dam and foal both smokey brown.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Smokey browns!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Agreed, smokey brown or brownskin as they are the same thing, a brown with a cream gene.

That's one of my favorite colors .


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

NdAppy said:


> Yogi - the top three horses pictured in the above post with the "sooty" horses are brown. All three of them. Just varying shades of brown.


I was trying to answer the question of the difference between seal brown and brown (and couldn't remember). So you are saying there is no genetic difference?

I see a difference, by my definition, but it's just the same "difference" as a red chestnut and a copper chestnut.

Thank you for answering the question!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

abbierose, mom is soo pretty!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Yogiwick said:


> I was trying to answer the question of the difference between seal brown and brown (and couldn't remember). So you are saying there is no genetic difference?
> 
> I see a difference, by my definition, but it's just the same "difference" as a red chestnut and a copper chestnut.
> 
> Thank you for answering the question!


Brown naw seal brown are just two ways of saying the se color. The agouti is (At) instead of just (A_). As for shade I have seen several homozygous browns (AtAt) be lighter in shade then the heterozygous browns.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> I was trying to answer the question of the difference between seal brown and brown (and couldn't remember). So you are saying there is no genetic difference?
> 
> I see a difference, by my definition, but it's just the same "difference" as a red chestnut and a copper chestnut.
> 
> Thank you for answering the question!


Seal brown sounds better to people. That's about the only difference. Most folks don't like hearing their horse is "brown" because god forbid it be less than super special. But the same people are fine with saying "seal brown."


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I use the term Seal Bay for my mare because she BLACK in the summer with almost buckskin colored light spots in her flank and girth area, and she is coal black in the winter and has a brown muzzle. Calling her a bay confuses the heck out of people in my area -_-'. Her name is Negra meaning (feminine) black in Spanish so tells you how confused people can get about using proper color names lol.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Agree, I use the term for a "black" horse with very little brown, sometimes only visible seasonally. I use the term brown for any other brown horse. Just couldn't remember if it was technically a different color or just a different shade of brown.. I vaguely remember something along the lines of a hypothetical "other" brown gene, but who knows.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> I use the term Seal Bay for my mare because she BLACK in the summer with almost buckskin colored light spots in her flank and girth area, and she is coal black in the winter and has a brown muzzle. Calling her a bay confuses the heck out of people in my area -_-'. Her name is Negra meaning (feminine) black in Spanish so tells you how confused people can get about using proper color names lol.


That is the definition of brown.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Genetically seal brown = brown = seal bay. The researchers who identified the gene (At) called it seal brown, so that is probably most "correct." Brown is, I believe, a short hand for seal brown, which is confusing to people who aren't as up to date on genetics. I personally prefer the term seal bay, since it draws the connection between that color and "classic" bay (they are mutations of the same allele, after all) and the term has been around for a long time to describe dark bay horses, many of whom probably were genetically At.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

That must be what I am thinking of. Thank you for that info!


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