# Critique my thoroughbred and I Please!



## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

no critique here! just wanted to stop by and say he's adorable!! He looks like he loves his job


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## BetterInTimeRedRosie (Jan 12, 2009)

thanks he loves his job for the most part its a new adventure everyday with him lol but he is a very good boy


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## equineeventer3390 (Mar 27, 2009)

The biggest thing i see is the running martingale. It is way too tight for jumping. He cannot use his head and neck at all over the jump and it is teaching him to jump very hollow. if he is green and learning to jump this is teaching him a very bad thing. I also thing jumping in a standing martingale is extremely dangerous. I would only use a running martingale and in eventing standing martingales are illegal. If he cannot jump without the martingale like that then he should not be jumping. It either needs to be loosened up alot or switch to a running martingale. Besides that, not bad. Your position is pretty good. sorry i cant say more, i dont critique from videos that well.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I was going to make a similar comment about the martingale. Your horse seems to have a nice steady rhythm and you have a nice non-interfering way of riding. Do you even need that extra gear? He's a bit happy in some spots, but it hardly looks like he's about to run off with you and it may even be in response to the martingale.


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## BetterInTimeRedRosie (Jan 12, 2009)

I ride him in a very tight martingale to teach him to keep his head down and over the jumps he will throw his head up high i just started this two weeks ago because it is his new habbit he never used to do anything like that before, and i have never used a martingale on him before then, my trainer did this with her TB and he broke from throwing his head immediately. I don't use a martingale at all during the shows, this is simply for at home ring purposes and I throw my reins at him over the jumps so he has all the head he needs. Basically he is a brat and picks up unexpected habits.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I'm a little confused. In your initial post you said he's a good boy. Now you say he's a brat? Which is it? If your horse has picked up a bad behavior, you are better off finding the cause and fixing it through proper training. Your reason for using a martingale seems to constitute a punishment rather than a training solution.


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## BetterInTimeRedRosie (Jan 12, 2009)

He is a great horse, a great mover, and looks great, he has bratty habbits. The proper training is a tighter martingale, the trainer i use has been training for 25 years and does this with all horse that throw their heads, its no where near punishment. If it was a punishment he would be fighting me and throwing his head a lot more with it tighter. As i said, i have only used this for two weeks, but never used one before that. I will use it next week and then i wont use it again, and i guaruntee that he will not throw his head again. And what would your proper training be to prevent him from throwing his head?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I don't know your horse, so I have no idea of why he started throwing his head up. The solution would depend on why he's doing it. I'm not a trainer, and only have to work with my one horse, but I firmly believe that gadgets only produce band-aid style fixes to problems. 

When I first got my 5 year old OTTB, he immediately started testing me by trying to pull the reins out of my hands and throwing his head around at the trot. I ignored several suggestions from trainers around the barn who suggested side reins, martingales and draw reins. One even told me to use a harsher bit. (sigh) Instead I just rode him threw his fits, ignoring them, until he gave up on it. It only took a few rides before he lost interest in it. 

Your horse looks like he's enjoying his job. I hope your method works for you.


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

He is lovely.  Very nice lead changes. He looks very sane and happy in his work, as well. Although I will say he looked a little heavy in the forehand. Along with what the above posters said. But other than that, you both look very nice. 

You have nice, solid legs, btw. I'm so sick of seeing people bucketing over 3 foot fences with flopping legs and toes that are pointed practically to the ground.


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## equineeventer3390 (Mar 27, 2009)

BetterInTimeRedRosie said:


> He is a great horse, a great mover, and looks great, he has bratty habbits. The proper training is a tighter martingale, the trainer i use has been training for 25 years and does this with all horse that throw their heads, its no where near punishment. If it was a punishment he would be fighting me and throwing his head a lot more with it tighter. As i said, i have only used this for two weeks, but never used one before that. I will use it next week and then i wont use it again, and i guaruntee that he will not throw his head again. And what would your proper training be to prevent him from throwing his head?



Jumping in a martingale that tight WILL prevent him from throwing his head. It WILL also teach him to jump very very hollow, flat, and not use his head and neck at all. If this is what you want, then a tight martingale is the key. But that is absolutely NOT what you want. You can work through this problem with a looser martingale, running martginale, or not martingale at all.


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## eventer89 (Apr 14, 2009)

BetterInTimeRedRosie said:


> He is a great horse, a great mover, and looks great, he has bratty habbits. The proper training is a tighter martingale, the trainer i use has been training for 25 years and does this with all horse that throw their heads, its no where near punishment. If it was a punishment he would be fighting me and throwing his head a lot more with it tighter. As i said, i have only used this for two weeks, but never used one before that. I will use it next week and then i wont use it again, and i guaruntee that he will not throw his head again. And what would your proper training be to prevent him from throwing his head?


Just because a trainer has been training for 25 years does not mean that their techniques are good for the horse.

If this is preventing him from throwing his head because it is so tight, then how would he possibly throw his head while fighting you, if you have made it so he cant?


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## BetterInTimeRedRosie (Jan 12, 2009)

I haven't had any issue with him jumping too hollow or flat, as i said in an earlier post i will be taking the martingale off in a week, All of the other horses that have had this issue has fixed their issues with this technique, and are now showing at hunter jumper circuits and a rated shows and winning 1st places left and right, as a matter of fact a very excellent rider that has done jumpers and hunters all of his life uses this technique and it definitely does help, I don't use a martingale at all during shows and I get the perfect horse from using one at home. Im not trying to cause any arguments but I asked for critique on the horse and I not my equipment being used thank you.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

Generally when you ask for a critique everything gets brought into it. If it works for you and your trainer that is great. We all just share our experiences here. I used to use a loose standing martingale on my medium pony hunter and she was fine. I do think that one is a bit tight. Your horse doesn't seem to be fighting it. However I made the mistake of trying to trot my TB over a few cross rails with a standing martingale on (usually on use on the flat) and she responded by trying to break free of it. (at first I thought she was upset by the combmination of jumps instead of just one jump) But realized the only thing that changed was the martingale. I took it off and the first few jumps she was still throwing her head up and calmed down after she realized she was free to jump without restriction. So each horse is different.


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## chelssss(: (Jul 22, 2008)

My thoroughbred has done the same thing when we jump, before i adopted him, he's had some work done with him, besides the abuse, etc. 

He seems to be rushed to a fence no matter the size in his past. He picks his head up and picks up speed, like what your TB is doing. I dont have a martingale on him, but i worked him over cavellettis, ground poles, and small 12" fences, and he LOVES the big stuff, but i wont let him do anything higher than a foot untill he stops rushing. and we did that ever since I adopted him and he's fine now.

What i suggest you to do: is to work on the small fences in the beginning of your lesson, or just hacking around. Dont jump into a 2' or bigger fence until he understands not to race to the fence. He just gets excited, but break that out of him, because he will end up hurting you racing like that. Use your seat to make him listen. You seem to have a good seat at the canter, but sit back and make him listen to your seat other than your hands and the martingale. and make him move through your seat into his bridle, making him realize that its not a big fence, and not to get so excited, because he can hurt himself and you.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

Chelsss, thanks RedRosie, I think your horse is lovely and your position very stable. My horse is def a lot hotter than yours, she is a bit younger but I am working on it


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## chelssss(: (Jul 22, 2008)

Also another thing i see, i dont know if this is the way you've been trained, since everywhere is different, but relax your hands ove rthe withers, you seem to be over the neck, and that might make him think: "oh she's giving me the rein, so maybe i can reach out more" don't make him think that. Bring your hands back, and sit back, collect his head back, so he can give you his head through the bridle, instead of him stealing your reins.


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## BetterInTimeRedRosie (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks Chelssss, he doesn't really rush to his fences he gets happy after the first jump in a line. There has been dramatic improvement within the past two weeks with the martingale, and as for my hands lol if i were to rest them back at the withers i look bad, my arms are extremely long and so are my legs lol, the judges at shows recomend that i rest them on his neck, I can ride with my reins looped which judges love and it means i have a very relaxed horse and thats what i am going for with him, sometimes he gets a bit excited and i gather him up but he then relaxes again. Thanks for the advice


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## hotreddun (Jun 27, 2008)

You're probably not going to read a word of this but here goes... Your horse looks very unbalanced to me. In most of your turns he is leaning in and not staying balanced over his legs. Probably due to the martingale that he is fighting. At 37 seconds in the 1st video you are lucky that you have a calm nice horse because if you had been on a few of the horses I've rode...you would have been dumped. Towards the end of the first video he is totally out of harmony with you and his last two jumps look very awkward to me. By the second video he looks pretty tired. His lead changes are very rough and in fact I would go back to doing nice clean simples during a course and then working on the lead changes on an entirely different day. With young horses you can't throw it at them all at once. Overall you look a bit slouchy. Your shoulders are very curved and your back is beginning to roach. I'm 5'10 myself so I know shoulders are a constant battle for us tall girls. I also am not a fan of the lean over the neck thing. If I were you I would go back to flat lessons (stirrup less maybe) and refresh myself on sitting deep and breathing deep.

I would lose the martingale...sorry. Just because your trainer has done something for 25 years doesn't make it right. Go back to basics of long and low...soft and supple.

Sorry to be harsh...thats what I see.


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## SamboStar (Sep 18, 2008)

I didn't actually watch the vids - dial-up stinks - but I wanted to encourage you. Good luck and don't stop!


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## horseloverd2 (Jan 23, 2009)

I notice you flop around a little. I don't know, I would just sit deeper. Maybe steady your hands and shoulders. If course, I don't know your horse well enough. And some people don't really worry about that too much, expecially with a jumper, not hunter. 

But I really like your form over those jumps.  Your horse could reach bigger heights and I think you could easily beat someone in a timed competetion. Keep on, you're doing great! He also turns nicely, though the canter looks a little choppy.

Take my advice if you want.  It may not be that great anyway. XD


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## NoFear526 (Sep 4, 2008)

You stated in a post that you practically throw the reins at him to compensate for the tight martingale. But if you go re-watch your videos, you do not. 

If anything, you catch him in the mouth upon landing because I really don't see much of a release at all. Your hands stay in the same position, only lowered to his neck to a jump. I like the fact that you can ride with shorter reins, and aren't intimidated by it. But if you are going to ride with that much contact, you need to give more of a release to the horse over a fence. 

Especially when using a tight martingale like that. The horse does certainly seem very calm and a very good boy. It is not fair to tie his head down, then bump him in the mouth. That is mixed signals, and your lucky you have a willing horse. 

In all honesty, if that is your normal jumping style, I would assume that is the reason your horse started to throw his head up initially. The martingale is now the 'fix' but in reality it is only going to make it worse.
He is certainly jumping very hollow, and isn't making much of an effort because he can't use himself like he should.

My advice is ditch the martingale, and ride with the same contact you have now, only GIVE upon coming to the fence and over it. Let him know that he CAN use his head and he can use his body.

OR, keep the martingale and loosen your reins. Your keeping his head with your reins that short, which is not a bad thing, but your also trying to tie it down with the martingale. 

I see one big contradiction here.


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## StarFeesh (Apr 27, 2009)

hotreddun said:


> You're probably not going to read a word of this but here goes... Your horse looks very unbalanced to me. In most of your turns he is leaning in and not staying balanced over his legs. Probably due to the martingale that he is fighting. At 37 seconds in the 1st video you are lucky that you have a calm nice horse because if you had been on a few of the horses I've rode...you would have been dumped. Towards the end of the first video he is totally out of harmony with you and his last two jumps look very awkward to me. By the second video he looks pretty tired. His lead changes are very rough and in fact I would go back to doing nice clean simples during a course and then working on the lead changes on an entirely different day. With young horses you can't throw it at them all at once. Overall you look a bit slouchy. Your shoulders are very curved and your back is beginning to roach. I'm 5'10 myself so I know shoulders are a constant battle for us tall girls. I also am not a fan of the lean over the neck thing. If I were you I would go back to flat lessons (stirrup less maybe) and refresh myself on sitting deep and breathing deep.
> 
> I would lose the martingale...sorry. Just because your trainer has done something for 25 years doesn't make it right. Go back to basics of long and low...soft and supple.
> 
> Sorry to be harsh...thats what I see.


I see the same things as hotreddun. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you asked for a critique, so that's what you're going to get.

In addition to what was said above, I don't think you have a very solid leg. In all of the videos, it is swinging very badly until you get right up to the jump, which is probably because you are getting very tense over the fences. Go back to the flat. Work on your seat and lower leg. I'd advise you to take a few Dressage lessons, to get that solid foundation. Then I would have you get rid of the martingale and do some flat work with the horse, like said above. Put on a running martingale if you feel like you still need one. 

Your trainer obviously uses "quick fixes" to create that "perfect Hunter pony". That does not mean she is correct. It is much better to fix them problem from the core than to pile on problems in attempt to fix one without giving it real effort. 

Your horse chips into fences a lot. Instead of gazing down into the dirt like there's something interesting there, look up and close your leg. Don't mess with his mouth as you come into the fence. Get a good rhythm coming up, about five strides out, relax your arms, look up and over the fence and close your legs. Give a good release over the fence, and keep it about a stride after you land. You're catching his mouth.

Good luck with the jumping.


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

i could watch you ride for forever =] great job. he so cute! Id also like to comment on you lead, he was correct every time, gj!!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I find it funny how the coach keeps screaching about his head and letting him see the fences and how it pops out and pulling his head up - when his head is forced down in a fake headset with this rediculous martingale.

Poor horse.

Martingales are a gadget that is a quick fix. Your horse is throwing his head up and jumping hollow, in reflection of what you are doing in the saddle. Our horses respond to us - so try to fix your errors to correct his - before you attempt to mute the issue with this gadget that you throw on him.

I see an unbalanced rider. I see a seat smacking her horses back at every down stride in the canter. I see a rider with too active of hands with no functional seat and no functional core. And a horse that is heavy, on his forehand and flat. I see a rider who does not support her horse on approach to the fences, allowing her horse to move in flat. I see a rider who isn't riding back to front. 

Lovely horse with allot of potential. He is obviously trying hard.


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## eventer89 (Apr 14, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> I find it funny how the coach keeps screaching about his head and letting him see the fences and how it pops out and pulling his head up - when his head is forced down in a fake headset with this rediculous martingale.
> 
> Poor horse.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. Your horse IS hollow on the flat and over the fences. You trainer is screaming to "pick his head up"..... wait, didn't you slap the waaaay too tight martingale to KEEP him from picking his head up?

Do you see the contradiction here? Well, your horse has the same confusion, and can't use his back properly. Keep riding him like this and he is going to have a VERY sore back if he doesn't already.

Oh, and that counter canter at the end of the last video? "Is he right?" "Nah." That was because he was unbalanced. It's your job as the rider to keep him balanced, which you can't do if you aren't balanced yourself.


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## StarFeesh (Apr 27, 2009)

eventer89 said:


> I completely agree. Your horse IS hollow on the flat and over the fences. You trainer is screaming to "pick his head up"..... wait, didn't you slap the waaaay too tight martingale to KEEP him from picking his head up?
> 
> Do you see the contradiction here? Well, your horse has the same confusion, and can't use his back properly. Keep riding him like this and he is going to have a VERY sore back if he doesn't already.
> 
> Oh, and that *counter canter* at the end of the last video? "Is he right?" "Nah." That was because he was unbalanced. It's your job as the rider to keep him balanced, which you can't do if you aren't balanced yourself.


It was actually a cross canter, where his front end was cantering on the left lead and his hind end was cantering on the right lead. Cross cantering is extremely dangerous to your horse and is HIGHLY penalized in the show ring. A horse that is cross cantering is suffering from terrible balance issues or could be in pain/too weak to keep the hind end on the right lead. In your case, I suspect it's a balance problem.


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## BetterInTimeRedRosie (Jan 12, 2009)

Oh, and that counter canter at the end of the last video? "Is he right?" "Nah." That was because he was unbalanced. It's your job as the rider to keep him balanced, which you can't do if you aren't balanced yourself.[/quote]


That was the only time in the two videos that he counter cantered, i dont think im unbalanced in my opinion. Yeah i may have asked for a critique, but if you want to be nasty about things then dont say them at all. As I stated above "(please don't critique to harshly)" 

Thanks


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

BetterInTimeRedRosie said:


> He is a great horse, a great mover, and looks great, he has bratty habbits. The proper training is a tighter martingale, the trainer i use has been training for 25 years and does this with all horse that throw their heads, its no where near punishment. If it was a punishment he would be fighting me and throwing his head a lot more with it tighter. As i said, i have only used this for two weeks, but never used one before that. I will use it next week and then i wont use it again, and i guaruntee that he will not throw his head again. And what would your proper training be to prevent him from throwing his head?


A martingale isn't a 'fix' to him tossing his head; it is a hinderance to his jumping ability. 

Perhaps he has an issue with the bit you are using. Check his mouth, and teeth, to ensure that is not the real reason he is tossing his head at times.

If he still tossing his head, then stop the jump work for a while and go back to flat work, so you can work at leveling him out, using serpentines, figure eights, straights, etc...changing gaits frequently; Perhaps he is simply bored, and tossing his head is his way of saying "I want to do MORE!!!" 

Trail riding is another good way to get a horse to refocus his mind. If you have trails nearby, then utilize them. When I show horses, I trail ride probably 60-70 % of the time; ring work gets boring and monotonuous for a horse, and we wonder why they come up with naughty habits. Start adding in things that can keep him energized in a different way, and you will likely see a great improvement in how your horse performs for you at home in the arena. 

You can also encorporate more ground work into your regimine, as this can improve your relationship with him without expecting him to perform in a 'certain way'; do desensitization things with him, or learn how to work with him off lead...a horse that will follow you over jumps, around cones, etc, is sure to make people turn their heads; you will also know you have a really deep understanding relationship between you and your horse. 

There are LOTS of ways you can improve your horse's 'bad habit' without the martingale; like I said before, it's a temporary fix, and doesn't really address the real issue at all...it's like having a tie down on a barrel racer, because you think it 'needs it'; I've never used one on my gamers. :wink:


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

so i think you have a good start but a few things i noticed (i didn't' read all the posts so sorry if i am saying things that have already been said):

- you are stiff and hunched over/perched a bit- try to relax, take a deep breath and sit back and move more with your horse(with your arms)... tb's have a tendency to go faster the more you pull, having a soft had is the best thing that you can ever do for your boy
- your leg swings some, it isn't to bad and i think some no stirrup work would help- that is what i would do if you were my student
- please take the martingale off, if you use it once in a while ok but all the time is no bueno- you aren't able to release and give him the ability to jump correctly with it- but that is my opinion and if you want to keep it thats ur choice 
- the lead changes look ok but i think doing some more simple lead changes would really benefit you

that is what i got from a quick look, but really you have a good foundation it's just the fine tuning that makes it all work. he is very cute and i wish you the best, i have 2 tb's and i love them with all my heart- best breed ever!


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## StarFeesh (Apr 27, 2009)

BetterInTimeRedRosie said:


> Oh, and that counter canter at the end of the last video? "Is he right?" "Nah." That was because he was unbalanced. It's your job as the rider to keep him balanced, which you can't do if you aren't balanced yourself.



That was the only time in the two videos that he counter cantered, i dont think im unbalanced in my opinion. Yeah i may have asked for a critique, but if you want to be nasty about things then dont say them at all. As I stated above "(please don't critique to harshly)" 

Thanks[/quote]

He is cross cantering. And no one is being nasty, just giving an honest opinion.


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