# Conformation Tutorial



## MIEventer

I see him being a bit Butt High?


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## TheLastUnicorn

*Step 2*
Now that we've seen the shape and how the horse is balanced, we're going to make some spots on our horse. 

Place Dots (I've color coded them so I can more easily see which are which) on *the Point of wither, the point of shoulder and the point of elbow. 
*Center of Knee joint, center of fetlock and center of coronet
*LS Joint (it will be that slight depression just before the croup.. on the horse you'll find it because it's a little squishy spot)
*Point of hip, Point of Buttock, and Point of Stifle 
*Center of hock, center of fetlock, center of coronet


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## TheLastUnicorn

MIEventer said:


> I see him being a bit Butt High?


Your horse or mine? How about we have everyone post their steps as they complete them... that way I can help if someone's stuck. (Use photobucket or attach directly to post... doesn't matter I guess)

Yes, mine is bum high - or "downhill". In this photo she's 3, and in the middle of a growth spurt... so I'm not going to hold it against her - we're 3 years in the future (I just couldn't find any other decent confo shot on my computer) and I know that "weakness" goes away


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## equiniphile

Step one response: somewhat butthigh for mine


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## equiniphile




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## equiniphile

Hmm kind of confused. Where would the point of the butt be on Arthur? Is it the highest part of the butt, outside the box?


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## MIEventer

OOOOH! DUH! I thought you asked what we saw....dur. Sorry - continue on...lol


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## TheLastUnicorn

*Step 3*

The Body Length Line. This line is going to be pretty critical to the rest of your critique. You will join the dot at the point of shoulder to the one at the point of buttock with a line - most horses this will be a slightly downhill sloped line. 









*Step 4 *
The shoulder. 
Join the dot at the top of wither to that at the point of shoulder. Then join the point of shoulder to the point of elbow with another line.

Now, measure the first line - it should run along the scapula of the horse (the shoulder bone). 
What did you get? :
Divide that by the body length - and turn it into a percentage. :
We now have the shoulder length, the ideal shoulder is no less than 1/3 of the body length.

Measure the second line.:

This is the humorous length. we're going to divide that by the shoulder length... and turn it into a percentage : 
The ideal humorous is at least 50% of the shoulder length, longer is better. 

Now, Shoulder slopes and angles. 
The shoulder slope is found by measureing the angle between the scapula and a horizonal line (don't use the body length line, because it's usually slightly sloped, but a straight line running horizontally from the point of shoulder across the photo.) The "ideal" is between 45 and 50 degrees, though some sources will say between 40 and 55. 

The shoulder angle is found by measureing the angle between the scapula line and the humorous line. The "ideal" is 100 degrees. 

What do the angles mean? They will tell us if the horse is going to be more prone to having short choppy strides, how high it'll be able to lift it's knees... the scope and flexibility of the horse's front end. 

They don't stand alone though - a horse is the sum of all it's parts, so we're going to connect the angles with the lengths. The longer a scapula and humorous the more compensation there is for less than ideal angles. 

What can you tell me about your horse's shoulder?


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## TheLastUnicorn

equiniphile - the point of buttock is the "longest" point of the buttock - you can see the end of it with the orange body length line. My Point of buttock dot is green - to match the other hindquarter dots I'll be using in a little while

I'm going to have some lunch, and I'll check back in a bit


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## mumiinek

Thank you for such an amazing tutorial! I have a question, I have a friesian and it's a bit funny with their withers. How do I find the top of the withers for example on this horse?










A friesian cross, another example










Thank you for your answer. I've always wanted to measure my horse but never knew where exactly to do it (where to put the tape).


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## equiniphile

Here so far


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## equiniphile

I can't find anything on my computer to measure with. Ideas? I'm using the pre-downloaded Paint program on my computer


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## mumiinek

Use a ruler :wink:


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## CharliGirl

I'll give this a try! 

Not the best confirmation photo, but it was the only side-shot I could find on this computer.


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## equiniphile

Lol i downloaded an on-screen ruler but it doesn't rotate so idk! I don't think I have a real ruler around here though haha


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## Hunterjumper7654

This is what I have so far.


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## mumiinek

equiniphile said:


> Lol i downloaded an on-screen ruler but it doesn't rotate so idk! I don't think I have a real ruler around here though haha


I'd say you can just _create_ one out of a piece of paper, a pencil, a ribbon or something like that. Make marks there that would represent centimetres (or other unit, doesn't matter how far away from each other they are as long as they are all the same far away from each other, if you know what I mean, you can use... have no clue... pen cap or some other small object to measure where to make the next mark) as the actual measurement doesn't matter (as long as you're using one and the same measuring means for the whole process), the thing that matters is the relation between the final measurements (numbers). At least that's what I understood. I hope I expressed myself well and you can understand what I wanted to say.

But then again I think searching for the real ruler would probably be easier :lol:


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## TheLastUnicorn

mumiinek said:


> Thank you for such an amazing tutorial! I have a question, I have a friesian and it's a bit funny with their withers. How do I find the top of the withers for example on this horse?
> 
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> A friesian cross, another example
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> 
> Thank you for your answer. I've always wanted to measure my horse but never knew where exactly to do it (where to put the tape).


You'll want to follow the slope of the scapula and use the "tallest" point of it. It'll be close enough. 

Equiniphile, you'll want to move your LS dot back, just a little. Use the freeware program "BitRuler". I think it also does angles... I've never used that part of it before, but if it does, yippee!

To the others - that's great!... now... what are you "seeing" when you look at your new, doodled, horse?


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## TheLastUnicorn

mumiinek said:


> I'd say you can just _create_ one out of a piece of paper, a pencil, a ribbon or something like that. Make marks there that would represent centimetres (or other unit, doesn't matter how far away from each other they are as long as they are all the same far away from each other, if you know what I mean, you can use... have no clue... pen cap or some other small object to measure where to make the next mark) as the actual measurement doesn't matter (as long as you're using one and the same measuring means for the whole process), the thing that matters is the relation between the final measurements (numbers). At least that's what I understood. I hope I expressed myself well and you can understand what I wanted to say.
> 
> But then again I think searching for the real ruler would probably easier :lol:


Yup... that's right. It really doesn't matter which "form" of measurement you use for the lengths, it's all about relation to each other.


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## TheLastUnicorn

*Step 5*
Forelegs. 

So, after the shoulder we move down the leg. The shoulder and leg move in relation to each other, always, so the measurements we get here can alter measurements we found higher up too. I didn't bother drawing lines on my horse for this - I find the dots easier to measure 

We want a longish forearm, I like it to be close in length to the humorous or longer. Forearm helps the horse reach forward and "swing" for each stride. The longer the forearm, usually, the smoother the horse. 

We want a shorter cannon - no more than 75% of the forearm, 50% is better. The cannon should be short, with ample bone (I think it's 7" for every 1000lbs) to ensure strength to hold the horse up and stand up to wear and tear. 

We want a Pastern which is no more than 50% of the cannon length. Pasterns too long will be weak and prone to soundness problems, and pasterns too short (no less than 30% of the cannon) will create soundness problems as well as a rougher ride. I'm less concerned about pastern slope than I am length... primarily because if you change the slope of the hoof the pastern slope is also going to change - often horses with a poor angle to their pastern are really showing a poor trim or shoeing job rather than any real conformational issue. 

Straightness is also being taken into consideration, we want the horse's knee to be flat, and we want a nice straight cannon. The leg is going to be part of what determines the overall long term soundness of our horse. We want to make sure there's enough "bone" to suit the mass of the horse as well. 

And lets take a look at foot size, while we're here too. We want to see a hoof which is balanced for the horse's body, the bigger the foot the better.


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## equiniphile

TheLastUnicorn said:


> You'll want to follow the slope of the scapula and use the "tallest" point of it. It'll be close enough.
> 
> Equiniphile, you'll want to move your LS dot back, just a little. Use the freeware program "BitRuler". I think it also does angles... I've never used that part of it before, but if it does, yippee!
> 
> To the others - that's great!... now... what are you "seeing" when you look at your new, doodled, horse?


 K I got BitRuler downloaded. Umm which is the LS dot and which way do I move it?


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## TheLastUnicorn

*Step 6*
Hindquarters. 

Now for that triangle on the rump. 
We want to draw a line from the point of hip, to the point of buttock
another from the point of buttock to the stifle, and then another from the stifle to the point of hip. 

The first one we'll measure is the illium (hip) - so measure from point of hip to point of buttock. This measurement should be no less than 1/3 of the total body length. The illium length is an indicator of the amount of "thrusting" power the horse will have, but, like everything else it's entirely connected to the rest of the hind limb conformation. The longer the hip the better, but only if it's paired with equal partners when it comes to the femur and pelvis.

The next measurement will be from the point of buttock to the stifle - the femur length. It should be close to equal to that of the illium/hip. 

The last one will be the pelvis. It too should be as close to equal to the hip as possible. The length, and therefore the angle of the pelvis is going to greatly effect a horse's ability to change gaits smoothly, stop suddenly, "sit" in collection and make sharp turns without injury. 

Tell me what you notice about your horse's hiney!


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## TheLastUnicorn

equiniphile said:


> K I got BitRuler downloaded. Umm which is the LS dot and which way do I move it?


The LS is the one which will be marking the end of your horse's back... try to put it where the spine ends and has a "squishy" spot - just ahead of the croup (the highest point of the horse's rump)


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## Allison C

Thank you doing this!! I appreciate your willingness to create a tutorial.


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## equiniphile

Thanks, I moved it. Here's my notes thus far:

230--shoulder
598--body line
38.4%
131--humerus
56.9%
61.9--shoulder slope

Those are the measurements in order, I couldn't do the second shoulder angle one (between the humerus and scapula) because I can't do that kind of measurement.


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## Cupcake

I just wanted to say.... that I think this informative thread should be a Sticky.


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## equiniphile

So far:

230--shoulder
598--body line
38.4%
131--humerus
56.9%
61.9--shoudler slope
123--forearm
78--Cannon
37--Pastern


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## TheLastUnicorn

Equiniphile - the Shoulder angle that you can't get is about 96 degrees  

You should also move the point of hip dot - you're going to get a shorter hip measurement if you don't. You want it placed right on the part of the "hip" that sticks out 

Now that you have the front end measurements, can you put into words what they mean to the horse? (by all means use any of my other posts to help you ... if you still can't understand the relationships I'll help you out when I'm done feeding my horsies )


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## ShutUpJoe

I did all of this before realizing that I don't have a protractor or room on my harddrive to download that freeware : / lol


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## TheLastUnicorn

Joe - your horse's shoulder slope is 50.36 degrees, shoulder angle is 74.93 degrees. 

I might be wrong, but I think your point of hip is a little too far back.

Equiniphile, I've made a change to where the point of hip is on your horse, and left your triangle there (just drawn over it) so you can see the amount of difference it makes


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## equiniphile

Thanks! Let's see.










230--shoulder
598--body line
38.4%
131--humerus
56.9%
61.9--shoulder slope
96--shoulder angle
123--forearm
78--Cannon
37--Pastern
191--point of hip to point of buttock
31.9%--ilium length
187--femur length
181--pelvis length

Lemme have a go at this. Pastern is very good length in comparison to the cannon bone, and the cannon bone is proportionate to the forearm. The shoulder length is correct in being more than 1/3 of the length of the body line. The humerus is good in being more than 50% of the length of the shoulder. The shoulder is a bit on the steep side, correct? And the shoulder angle at 96 degrees is somewhat closed, off of the ideal of 100 degrees. I think the long scapula makes up for this, correct? 

The forearm is only 123 compared to the 131 humerus, but I'm not sure how I was supposed to measure the forearm. I used the point of the elbow to the knee. The cannon is okay in proportion to the forearm. The pastern is great in relation to the length of the cannon.

Looking at the rear end, the line from the point of the hip to the point of the buttock is a bit too short in comparison to the length of the body line at 31.9%. Not so much, however, that it impedes upon the amount of thrust the horse has from behind. Femur length at 187 is close to the measurement of the point of hip to buttock (191), so they're equal there. The pelvis length is a bit short and doesn't quite favor the idea of the equilateral triangle, but at 181 it's close enough. Arthur seems to have a powerful rear end.


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## TheLastUnicorn

*Step 7 *
The back.

A horse's back is built like a suspension bridge. Like that suspension bridge when we add weight to the horse's back it "sags"... and like the bridge in order for it not to "break" we need to make sure it has strong anchor points in order to have a strong back.

The first place to look is where the wither blends into the spine. You want to see a clear wither, not too high, not too low, you want it to blend smoothly into the back. Having a high wither often results in getting a "shelf" behind it -which will put some strain on the vertabrae, but also make finding a good saddle fit difficult - if your saddle doesn't fit your horse is going to be far less likely to work properly... and that's when injuries happen. 

We're going to draw a line from the top of the wither to the horse's LS joint (just ahead of the croup). This is our back length line. 

We're also going to make a short, verticle line at the last rib of the ribcage - and make sure that line intersects with the body line. Then one more line from the top of wither to that small verticle line you just made. This is the ribcage length line. 

The length of these lines will be our back length, and our ribcage length. 
The length of a horse's back is of less importance to us than the strength of that back - it's very possible to have a long back which is also strong, just as a short back can also be weak. 

Now, while length of back isn't "primary" concern for us, we don't want too long of a back, or it will through the balance of the horse out too. Generally, we want a back no more than 50% of the body length in order to maintain that square horse. 

The ribcage length is going to help determine the length, therefore strength, of loin. We want to see the ribcage length being 98% or more of the back length. 

To go with Loin length... we're going to look at loin girth depth. Loin girth is the area from the loin to the bottom of the horse's flank - the deeper (longer) that space is, the stronger the loin is, because there's more horse there to give it support. 

Another thing we're going to look at is the position of the LS joint. This joint is the rear anchor to the horse's back, and we find it by locating the soft, squishy spot on the horse's spine (right on top) just ahead of the point of croup. In a perfect world the LS would be placed ahead of the hips... but a good placement would be even with the hips... and it get weaker the further back we go. The placement of the LS is not only a factor in the strength of the back, but also in the ability the horse has to round out and collect. A horse with an LS placement too far back will never reach levels of "sit" that a horse with one further ahead of the hips will be. 









We're going to then put the whole back together as a whole picture of the horse's back. What can you tell me about your horse's back?


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## TheLastUnicorn

Equiniphile - yep... pretty good. 
The length of the scapula can offset a steep angle... a little, the humorus being more than half that length is going to help more so. If your boy is gaited, then his shoulder is likely a reflection of the type of movement desired within the breed (I thought you mentioned he was Peruvian or Paso Fino in another thread?)
While "good conformation" is good conformation, there are variances within breeds which desire different movement. 

His hindquarter reflects this a little as well.


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## equiniphile

230--shoulder
598--body line
38.4%
131--humerus
56.9%
61.9--shoulder slope
96--shoulder angle
123--forearm
78--Cannon
37--Pastern
191--ilium length (point of hip to point of buttock)
31.9%--hip to buttock over body line
187--femur length (buttock to stifle)
181--pelvis
299--back length
50%--back/body
315--ribcage length
105%--ribcage/back

Yes, he's a Paso Fino. They're supposed to have short backs, I've heard


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## TheLastUnicorn

I just realized I somehow missed the rest of the hind leg. 

So, ideally, when we stand a horse up so that his cannons are verticle to the ground, his hock, tendons, fetlock and heel are going to line up to that side of the box. Naturally, horses aren't always so co-operative with photographers and this means sometimes we can't get that perfect stance captured "on film" but with some practice you can learn to visualize what the leg would look like - as long as it's not out by too much. 

A leg which extends past the box with the cannons on the verticle is "camped out" - or over angulated. This is quite common amongst gaited breeds, or trotters, but can be seen in other horses as well. While this doesn't generally impede the horse, and often will actually allow for more reach through under the horse while it's moving, it can also make it harder for the horse to lift it's back and work truly round.

A leg which falls short of the line while the cannons are verticle is said to be "post legged" - or lacking of angulation. Post legged-ness is one of those faults which is going to make for a rough ride. The angulation of the hind limb is there to help absorb shock, as well as propell the horse forward - so the lack of it will reduce the shock absorption and make the hind legs shorter strided. It will also impede the horse's ability to round out and move correctly.

(as a note, many horses who are growing will appear post legged while they are still bum high... and often horses who are built downhill will be post legged - but not necessarily)


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## TheLastUnicorn

So... with the added knowledge of his back measurements what can we say about his back?


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## kmacdougall

I did one of these for my horse, going off the example of Nelson, but I am not sure if I measured the right angles  Subbing to this so I can see when you get to the angle measurement part!


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## equiniphile

This is really interesting, I'm going to take pictures of Molly, Excel, and Lenox and do all of them when I get back from MD!

Artie's not squared up here so I can't see if his hind leg is correct. I might have some pics with his hinds straight....


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## TheLastUnicorn

*Step 8*
Now let's add a neck length line... top of wither to the poll. Generally speaking we want a horse to break into thirds... so 1/3 of the body in neck, 1/3 in back and 1/3 in hindquarter... but many people prefer a slightly longer neck on their horse. 

Whether a horse has a short or long neck doesn't matter so much as the shape of that neck and how it ties into the chest and wither. How "thick" the neck is will also help or hinder the horse's ability to balance and round out properly, but not nearly as much so as the natural shape, or structure of the neck. 

The "ideal" is a slightly arched neck shape... not so much so that the horse has a "swan neck" but not arched on the underside either. We want it to tie in about the "middle" of the chest, too low and you lose depth of chest and more weight gets shifted onto the forehand, too high and you'll lose the ability for the horse to reach long and low easily and relaxed as the tendency will be for the horse to try and seek it's balance in an inverted frame. A straight neck is better than "upside down" arche (ewe neck), but not as good as an arched neck. 

I would say you can safely go to about 50% of the body length as neck without drastically losing balance to the body and as little as 30% of the body length without getting ridiculously short. Horses with a longer neck are generally better able to balance themselves, especially for jumping where they can use that extra length as a counter balance... horses with a shorter neck will often find it more difficult to get off the forehand.


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## mumiinek

Doesn't the ribcage end quite in front of the flank? Like... a palm or a palm and a half or so?


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## TheLastUnicorn

*Step 9*

Take the sum of all parts. Start with the balance of the horse, and go from there, put the weaknesses with any countering strengths and then decide whether the horse will be "seriously" hindered, "slightly" hindered, "passable", or "excellent". 

At this point we have enough to give a pretty basic, but "tough" picture of the horse.


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## TheLastUnicorn

mumiinek said:


> Doesn't the ribcage end quite in front of the flank? Like... a palm or a palm and a half or so?


Sometimes, it's definitely best if you can go out and feel for that last rib... a rough gage would be approx. 4 fingers, it might be further ahead of that, or further behind though - it will depend on the length of back a little.


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## equiniphile

230--shoulder
598--body line
38.4%
131--humerus
56.9%
61.9--shoulder slope
96--shoulder angle
123--forearm
78--Cannon
37--Pastern
191--ilium length (point of hip to point of buttock)
31.9%--hip to buttock over body line
187--femur length (buttock to stifle)
181--pelvis
299--back length
50%--back/body
315--ribcage length
105%--ribcage/back
325--neck length
54.3%--neck/body length

So his neck is a little too long? Might be because it's stretched so low. According to these measurements it's 54.3% of the total body line, and the back length is 92.5% of the back length.


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## equiniphile

Finished!!


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## TheLastUnicorn

> They don't stand alone though - a horse is the sum of all it's parts, so we're going to connect the angles with the lengths. The longer a scapula and humorous the more compensation there is for less than ideal angles.http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/conformation-tutorial-71591/#ixzz16SBUcIw8


I made a slight oversight here... I should clarify that the greater length of humorous is only good if it's paired with a longer scapula. The "ideal" humorous length is 50-60% of the scapula. Very sorry about that, I think I'm having information overload.


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## equiniphile

^^Oh good, my humerus/scapula is 56.9%. That's average?

By the way, could you tell me what you see in Arthur's conformation?


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## TheLastUnicorn

I think you summed him up pretty good. 

His biggest faults are : He's a little downhill - which is going to make it harder for him to get back onto his hindquarter, his shoulder slope is a little steep, his back is maybe a little on the longer side, and his neck has a bit of a straight structure... but overall, he's a nice little horse. I'd say pretty much each of his obvious weaknesses is paired with a strength that will help balance it out.


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## equiniphile

Thanks! He's a great horse and IMO looks great for 23!


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## equiniphile

I'm going to try my new Percheron mare. Do I have the box set up right? It's not the best confo photo in the world but I'm going to try with it.


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## TheLastUnicorn

Yes, the box is close enough to right - it could possible be a bit taller, but it won't really change much... one thing to be aware of, she is slightly angled away from the camera, and it will skew things a little - you can practice anyhow though.


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## equiniphile

I promise I won't bug you with my progress every step, but is this right so far? And where do I put the point of hip?


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## TheLastUnicorn

I moved your top of wither... you had it way too far back. The point of hip is not easily seen in this photo (not only is the horse... well covered by fat, but she's grey to boot ), so I guessed. If you have the time, look at her in person and then see if I'm close... if need be, feel for it.


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## equiniphile

nevermind, I got her all measured I think! Don't think the point of hip is in the right place, but oh well, it's practice, right?
547--body length
202--shoulder length
36.9%--shoulder/body
124--humerus
61.3%--humerus/shoulder
46.2--shoulder slope
87--shoulder angle
96--forearm
73--cannon
33--pastern
165--ilium
30.2%--hip to buttock/body line
166--femur
162--pelvis
236--back
43.1%--back/body
241--ribcage
102%--ribcage/back


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## equiniphile

Forgive me for taking over this thread! Here's my evaluation of Lenox:

Her shoulder length is great, even a little above the minimum. Her humerus is excellent at 61.3% the length of the shoulder, 11.3% above the minimum (you said the longer the better, right?). The angle is very steep at 61.3 and the shoulder angle is also very steep, but is balanced out by the long humerus and scapula, so the stride shouldn't be as restricted as it would be if the humerus and scapula were short.

The forearm is rather short at only 77.4% the length of the humerus, contributing to a short-strided horse, although draft horse standards accept a shorter-legged horse. The cannon is too long for the forearm at 76% of the length of the forearm. This horse might be prone to soundness problems in the future.

The ilium, femur, and pelvis are quite well-proportioned, being almost the same (or as close to the same as I could get, not knowing where the point of the hip was!) This allows for the powerful drivefrom behind that drafts are known for. It also will help Lenox make sharp turns and stops without as much effort.

This horse has a wonderfully short, strong back at only 43.1% of the body line length. She'll be able to carry more weight than a longer-backed horse and will be less prone to a swayback as she gets older. She also has a ribcage of 102% of the back length, which I think helps her to work harder without tiring as quickly? Allows for lung expansion I think. I'm not sure of the length of the loin, it looks average to me. Perhaps on the long side.

It's hard to critique the back legs here, and the measurements obviously aren't perfect since she's not standing perpendicular to the camera.


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## TheLastUnicorn

So you did a pretty good job... here's a few things I see... her humorous is actually a little too long, but, not so much so that I wouldn't say it's possibly distortion from the photo. You don't want that humorous longer than 60% of the scapula (that was my "late" note... somehow I missed that the first time around). I'd also guess that her shoulder slope is being distorted a little because her front end is turned a little away from the camera - so the angle and the length are going to be distorted a bit too (hence the importance of a really GOOD conformation shot over those "it'll do" photos). A steep shoulder is often found among the draft breeds, so it wouldn't worry me too much anyhow... but the closed shoulder angle does concern me, a bit, because it is paired with a steeper slope. (as a note, you had her point of elbow right the first time, making her shoulder angle closer to 80 degrees). Using my top of wither I got a shoulder slope of 50 degrees though - so that's not SO steep.

Her forearm actually isn't that short at all... at 77% of the humorous length it's well within "adequate".... however, I got measurements that indicate her forearm is closer to 85% of her humorous length, which is more than "fine".

Her back is a nice length, and her ribcage length is showing that her loin is also short - she has lovely loin girth - which adds support to that strong loin. It ties in well to her wither and to her croup. If our hip dot is in the right spot, her LS placement is great as well. Her back should never be an issue. 

Her hip construction is nice as well, especially for a draft horse... however, I have a horrible feeling that if we backed up that hind leg so the cannon was verticle she'd lose a lot of angulation to her hind limbs, and sadly become post legged (I might be wrong, that might be the angle of this shot too). If that happens, we'll probably see a shift to the pelvic angle as well - making it more typical for a draft and a little less ideal as a riding horse (not always, but post legged does seem to affect the tilt of the pelvis a little. Post leggedness is one of those "sad" conformation faults, because it takes away from the rest of the "good" this horse has in her hindquarter, so let's hope it's an illusion.

Overall, I really like this Perch mare though.


----------



## MIEventer

Unicorn - I think you are doing a FABULOUS job with this thread! I want to say a BIG THANK YOU for your time and effort  

I too agree, that this thread needs to be a Sticky!

Equiniphile - I applaud you for learning and listening and showing your appreciation to Unicorn for her efforts. I have alot of respect for you  *tips hat*


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## arasumi

Thank you so much for this step by step tutorial. I can`t do it now but it certanly do it later. Thanks again!.


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## faye

Unicorn, brilliant for what you have included, however I dont see at any point where you are evaluating for a horses straightness in the forelimb, you say straightness is important but don't explain how to see that.
Being back at the knee or over at the knee are faults.Being back at the knee can be rather serious as it puts additional strain on the tendons and ligaments of the leg making them extremley prone to injury and breakdowns.

Perhaps an edit or addendum to your realy excellent tutorial. (sorry but horses that are back or over at the knee are a perticular pet hate of mine)


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## Poseidon

This is Abby, a 7-year old Paint/QH. I'm not sure if I did it right.. This is what I got. I used BitRule to measure, but I dunno if I got the points right. And the picture sucks because it was from my phone, but it was the only side shot I had where she wasn't standing oddly. But this is a fantastic thread!

Body Line
6.9in

Scapula/Length
35.47%

Humorous/Scapula
68.85%

Shoulder Slope
50.67

Shoulder Angle
81.37

Cannon/Forearm
66.03%

Pastern/Cannon
49.51%

Illium
2.21in

Femur
2.16in

Pelvis
2.06in

Neck/Body
49.6%

Back length
2.83in

Back/Body
41.01%

Neck
3.39in

Oh. Oops. You can't really see the dots on her front leg. They were originally green, but when I was measuring, it turned them orange because I had that colour selected on Paint. Ignore the line by her hoof too.


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## TheLastUnicorn

faye said:


> Unicorn, brilliant for what you have included, however I dont see at any point where you are evaluating for a horses straightness in the forelimb, you say straightness is important but don't explain how to see that.
> Being back at the knee or over at the knee are faults.Being back at the knee can be rather serious as it puts additional strain on the tendons and ligaments of the leg making them extremley prone to injury and breakdowns.
> 
> Perhaps an edit or addendum to your realy excellent tutorial. (sorry but horses that are back or over at the knee are a perticular pet hate of mine)


Yes you're right, I didn't include them, but they ARE important, I didn't put them here mostly because a lot of people can see those faults (a lot of information about the common leg faults)... it's the basic structure that seem to catch a lot of people up, so that was where my main focus was. 

I can try to add them ... along with front and back stuff when I get the time.


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## TheLastUnicorn

Posidon - can you tell me what everything means now that you have it all there?


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## Poseidon

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Posidon - can you tell me what everything means now that you have it all there?


You know. I don't really remember. I tried to do it in order, but I did it last night and meant to change it and fell asleep. Like I said, I did it wrong. 

(Side comment: I've had less than 11 hours of sleep since about noon on Thursday..so yeah. I'm kind of out of it. )


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## Supermane

I wish I wasn't so stupid with paint programs, but I'll try and figure it out. I'd love to do this with my new horse when he comes and I can get some decent pictures of him.

Any suggestions for freeware paint programs that will run on a mac?


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## TheLastUnicorn

I don't have a mac, so I'm pretty useless. I seem to recall, from years ago, that Mac had a decent "pre loaded" Paint or Photo program which would work... but I don't really know - sorry. 

Poseidon - it doesn't really matter what "order" you do it in. I know a lot of people who actually work hindquarter forward, and others who prefer to do a nose-tail... if you have the measurements, then the correlations are the same, regardless of which order you tackle them in.


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## equiniphile

I'm addicted to this now, I've so far done 4 horses! Thank you so much for this tutorial, it's excellent! Arthur's the only one I've been able to use a good conformation photo for....I need to take proper confo pics of them soon


















I've got all the measurements saved if you'd like to see them


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## faye

Now I prefer using my eye to look at a horse and concider myself to have a fairly good eye for what constitutes a nice, well put together riding horse however I thought that for curiositys sake i'd try the lines way.
Unicorn, can you please check that I have the points in the right place before i start measureing

Oh and can someone please measure the angles for me.


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## equiniphile

Faye, if you download BitRuler it will measure the angle of a single line. If you need to do the angle between the humerus and shoulder, measure both lines and add them together.

I'm going to try my mini mare....


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## faye

equiniphile, i'm on a company computer and I don't have the nessecary authority to download the programme.


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## TheLastUnicorn

I've put a black line on my example horses - mid shoulder blade (center of shoulder blade??... well the picture is there so you can see). 

I've made that line totally verticle, no angle (I hope), and now to see how correct the front leg is. 

In a perfect horse this line would intersect with the middle of the knee joint, the middle of the fetlock and the heel. Devation from this plumbline is going to cause strain on the horse's leg, the amount of strain will, like everything else, be connected to the other points of conformation the horse has, so in many horses a little bit of deviation is often compensated for elsewhere in the body. 

The plumbline is only going to be accurate if the horse is standing well. If the horse is leaning forward (or standing under itself) or stretched out front you're not going to get a true idea of how the leg is lining up.


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## TheLastUnicorn

Faye, it looks OK. I'd make sure your neck line is ended at the poll (you haven't gone quite far enough), and make sure your humorous line is landing on the elbow.


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## TheLastUnicorn

Faye - Shoulder Slope is 45 degrees, 
Shoulder angle is 81.9 degrees


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## GreyRay

I did one of Shaffiek, but my parents came home from the store and I didnt get to post it 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equiniphile

faye--ahh, I see

Okay is this right for the plumbline?


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## TheLastUnicorn

Yup... that looks great


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## equiniphile

I decided to try a halter QH to see what I came up with. Are these points right? I had some trouble with the point of hip and stifle....Either my points are way off or this horse shouldn't be a halter horse! lol


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## kmacdougall

Supermane said:


> I wish I wasn\'t so stupid with paint programs, but I\'ll try and figure it out. I\'d love to do this with my new horse when he comes and I can get some decent pictures of him.
> 
> Any suggestions for freeware paint programs that will run on a mac?


GIMP - Downloads

Pretty technical but really awesome. I cannot wait to post my results


----------



## Saskia

So I just measured my pic up - but I don't know. I think my wither is too far back? The pictures not great either.. 










What are the spots like, do I need to move some?


----------



## Poseidon

Okay. I think I figured it out. My measurements were so wonky before because my BitRuler was measuring in inches. Anyway, I copied equiniphile's list because she seems to have a lovely understanding of this, but I substituted my measurements, obviously. So here's Attempt #2:

Body Length - 334
Shoulder Length – 109
Shoulder/Body – 32.6%
Humerous - 80
Humerous/Shoulder – 73.4%
Shoulder slope – 57.3
Shoulder Angle – 87.74
Forearm - 80
Cannon - 49
Pastern - 24
Forearm/Humerous – 100%
Cannon/Forearm – 61.3%
Pastern/Cannon – 49%
Illium – 112
Illium/Body – 33.5%
Femur - 111
Femur/Body – 33.2%
Pelvis - 105
Back - 155
Back/Body – 46.4%
Ribcage - 152
Ribcage/Back – 98%
Neck – 146
Neck/Body – 43.7%

Long humerous. Shoulder could be a little bit longer. Shoulder is sloped a bit too much. All of these could just be because she is standing with her front legs back, but I’m not sure. Her cannon is pretty good. I’m not sure the actual length in inches, but she weighs about 1250lbs (she’s a big girl haha). Pasterns are pushing being a bit long? Femur and illium are about equal, that’s good right? Her pelvis should be a bit longer though. Her back could probably be a bit shorter, but her ribcage is fine. Her neck is pretty average sized, isn’t it?


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## TheLastUnicorn

Equiniphile... here's what I got. The thing about big beefy QH Halter horses is you have to make sure you're finding the bone structure, not the musclature 









Saskia :


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## TheLastUnicorn

Poseidon - you'd ideally have a better photo to work with... her front leg being that far under her is, I think, distorting her shoulder on you. Same with her hinds.

Other than that not bad. Her ribcage length actually isn't as "good" as you have, her LS is actually a little further back (it's right ahead of the point of croup) which makes her back just a little longer.


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## Poseidon

Yeah. I plan to redo it once I get a better picture. That's the best I have. The only one close to that she has her hind legs wayyyy in. But I won't see her until at least Monday or Tuesday.

Thanks though. This is a wonderful thread.


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## equiniphile

Knew something was off! Thanks


----------



## dee

This is really informative. I already knew that Dancer's confo was considerably less than ideal, and I wasn't far off. 

Shoulder:body length 43%
Humorous 58%
Shoulder slope 57 degrees (too steep)
Shoulder angle 123 degrees (way too steep?)

Cannon bone:forearm 75% (OK?)
Pastern:cannon bone 33% (fairly strong, I'm thinking)

Ilium:body length 36%
Illium, femur and pelvis are all equal - strong hip?

Back:body length 46%
Rib:body length 46%
Rib:back length is 1:1 ratio (is that good)

Neck:body length 46% - acceptable

Her front legs are nice and straight, but she is a little sickle hocked in the rear. She was leaning backwards a bit in the pic I was using, so I can't say too much more about her rear legs. Her neck is proportional to her body and her back seems nice and strong with good loin strength (potentially?). My box was far from square, as her back is so short and her legs were a bit long to really be square.

(And I know she's still horribly skinny, but we'll get her better, I promise!)


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## TheLastUnicorn

Well, Dancer isn't standing well, for starters and that's making her look worse than she really is. 
I've marked some corrections for you :









Even in this stance I got a shoulder slope of 54 degrees (which is steep, but not really critically so, and steeper than reality because of how she's standing) and an angle of 84 degrees (or so)... which is not that far off of the 90 degrees we seek, so while it is technically a closed angle, I'd like to see what it actually looks like with her front leg squarely under her body before I wrote it off. Your point of elbow was a little off too, making the angle look way worse than it really is. 

The next big problem I see here, is actually where you have her LS, and Point of hip

I got 2.67cm for her hip length vs a 7.28cm body length. That's about 37% of her body length, which is a good length of hip. I got 2.3cm for her femur length, and 2.3cm for her pelvic length - so, even with her standing poorly behind, she's showing a pretty balanced hindquarter. 

I got a back length of 3.2cm, which makes it about 44% of her body length, that's a nice length of back. Her ribcage length is 3.36cm... so it's more than equal to her back length - which is great, she has a short loin. Her LS placement is good too. She has a very nice deep loin girth. 

What I wonder, looking at this photo is if she's pregnant? If she's not, I'd get her an aggressive deworming "program", as her stomach (if not very heavily pregnant) is showing some digestive distress. (I don't actually see a "skinny" horse looking at her... to me it looks like a wormy horse - a big barrel, decent fat covering, but still ribby)


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## dee

Thanks - you really made my day!

We just recently wormed her (about two weeks ago) and will be hitting her again with Ivermectin Gold next week. She's always had a big belly, but she's not pregnant - she has a five month old filly that is about to be weaned. She lost a lot of weight just before the filly was born thanks to a neighbor that didn't feed her as promised and paid to do while we were on vacation. She's gradually been gaining it back in spite of nursing the monster filly. Dancer really got blasted on the forum a couple of weeks ago for being so skinny, but then again, we changed her feed a bit on the vets recommendation and she started gaining a little faster. That and the filly isn't nursing very much anymore.

She wouldn't stand still for the pictures yesterday. She was feeling too good. We had been lunging her for a short time and she wasn't ready to stop "playing."


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## TheLastUnicorn

Ah... just had a baby... that'll do it too! (Like people, it can take mares a little while to "trim down" again to their filly-ish figures!). She might be able to use about 50lbs or so, but then again, if she has worms, deworming her might be enough to pick that up.


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## lilkitty90

ok this is how far i've gotten and i'm not so sure i can find or even know where to find the LS one so what do i do from here?


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## lilkitty90

oh dang ahaha forgot the picture!


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## TheLastUnicorn

Here, I marked the spots, I also moved your point of hip.
You can go ahead and add some lines to her, then measure her up


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## lilkitty90

ok yay so my dots weren't too far off! sorry i am having lots of issues understanding this lol so the big green dot is the point of hip? and the small blue dot is the LS correct?


----------



## dee

*Shea's Misty*

Shea is having computer issues and asked me to post this for her.









Body length: 6.7cm
Shoulder length: 3cm
Humorous length: 1.6cm
Shoulder:Body length 45%
Humorous 53%
Shoulder slope 57 degrees
Shoulder angle 80 degrees
Forearm 1.6cm
Cannon Bone 1.1 cm
Ratio 69%
Pastern .5cm
Ratio 45%
Illium 2.3 cm
Femur 2.3cm
Pelvis 1.9
Illium:body lengh 34%
Back 2.8cm
Rib 2.6cm
Back:Body length 42%
Rib:body length 39%
Rib:back length 93%
Neck length 3.6 cm
Neck:body length 54%

Shoulder is a little steep - she really does have a horribly rough trot, but a wonderfully smooth paso fino and paso corte. Haven't seen her at paso largo. She's a touch weak in the hip, a little longer in the back and neck than we we would like?


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## TheLastUnicorn

She's not actually long in the back - but she does have a weaker back. The LS placement is too far back, and she has a long loin. (Any ribcage length less than 98% of the back length is indicating a too long loin)

Her neck is a bit long, but probably more against her is the shape of it. The fact it appears to tie into the shoulder in a "nest" 

Her forearm is nice and long, but her cannon would be stronger if it were shorter. Nice pasterns.

Her shoulder and her back are her weakest points, unfortunately.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

lilkitty90 said:


> ok yay so my dots weren't too far off! sorry i am having lots of issues understanding this lol so the big green dot is the point of hip? and the small blue dot is the LS correct?


No, the other way around. 

The LS is marked by the green dot - it's the point where the back ends and the croup starts. 

The point of hip is going to connect to the other blue dots I've marked to create a triangle.


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## Supermane

So, first I wanted to thank kmacdougall for suggesting GIMP. I was so confused at first, but a quick google search and I think I figured it out (the basics anyway). Before I start calculating, can you check my work?

Edit: I think my knee dot is a little too high and my one on the withers might be slightly off. He was hard because he's so dark...


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## TheLastUnicorn

A few changes


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## TheLastUnicorn

I just noticed that you used the bell boot as your coronet dot... the coronet is actually lower down.


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## Supermane

TheLastUnicorn said:


> I just noticed that you used the bell boot as your coronet dot... the coronet is actually lower down.


Yeah, I wasn't really focusing on the legs because he's not standing well at all. I didn't even mark the back legs... I kind of just marked what was semi-closeish. Thanks, I'll try now.


----------



## Rowzy

OK here is what I have for Roma:
Body Length 361
Shoulder Length 145
Shoulder Length 40% of body length
Shoulder slope 51.8 degrees
Shoulder Angle ??
Humorous length 96
Humorous length 66% of shoulder length
Forearm 98?
Cannon 60
Cannon is 61% of forearm length
Pastern 32
Pastern is 53% of cannon length
Illium (Hip) Length 119
Hip is 32% of body length
Femur Length 108
Pelvis Length 98
Back Length 152
Back is 42% of body length
Ribcage length 178
Ribcage is 113% of back length
Neck 181
Neck is 50% of body length

He has high withers, a short back (but he's an arab so this is normal) and a longer neck. Ill post more about what I see tomorrow... But do you think I got the lines all placed right?


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

This help?


----------



## Supermane

I used a ruler and protractor, so my measurement might be slightly off. I might actually be failing with the protractor... I haven't used one since 10th grade...

Length of body: 11.9 cm

Shoulder: 4.6 cm (38.7 %)
Humorous: 2.8 cm (60.8%)
Shoulder slope: 59 degrees
Shoulder angle: 91 degrees

I’m not really sure what that means... his slope is too big and his angle too small. 

Forearm: 3.2 cm
Cannon: 2 cm (62%)
Can’t measure the pastern because of the boots, but I know it’s too long
His cannons are fine, but he has long, weak pasterns

Illium: 3.4 cm (28.6%)
Femur: 3.4 cm
Pelvis: 3.1 cm
Weak hindend

Back: 6 cm (50.4%)
Rib: 5.5 cm (91.6%)

The length of his back is okay, but it’s weak


----------



## sarahver

*Please help me too!!*

OK I want to have a go at this with my girl, the photo isn't great as the she isn't square (making her look like she has one post leg ha ha) and her hooves are a bit long but we'll give it a go, how are my dots so far? I think I need to make the box a bit bigger?


----------



## sarahver

OK I added in the lines, haven't measured anyting yet in case I have set something up wrong.


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## TheLastUnicorn

Supermane - his shoulder isn't that bad. It's a little steep, but the angle is fine (90 degrees is generally considered "very acceptable"...). The length of his shoulder and humorous both will counter his steepish shoulder slope... so really, there's nothing to be overly concerned about there. 

You missed his forearm/humorous percentage, but I can see just looking at the measurements that it's longer... which is a good thing. His cannon isn't "too" long, but it is on the longer side - and I'll take your word for his pastern, since I actually can't see it. 

I agree his length of back is ok, but I get a longer ribcage length than you did, I actually got about 110% of his back length, which makes for a nice short loin. He possibly loses some loin girth depth, but not critically so - and he's still got plenty. I wouldn't say he has a weak back at all, though he does have a bit higher wither than I'd think was "ideal". 

I also wouldn't necessarily call his hind quarter "weak". I think you'd have a little more length to his hip/illum if it wasn't further from the camera than his shoulder... and the triangle formed is so close to being equal, that even though (in this shot) it looks like he lacks some length, he will still have the benefit of the right angles.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

Sarahhvr - Looks great! His ribcage isn't quite that long.. maybe move it about 2mm or so forward... not that it will really skew your results that much where it is. 

Also, he isn't standing that bad, he's not "perfectly" square, but he looks like he's standing comfortably. Sometimes when we force a horse square it looks forced because we've set them up so WE are happy, I'd say this horse is standing "naturally" and it's only helping to show his strengths.


----------



## sarahver

Thanks!! Here is what I have so far, I don't have a protractor so haven't been able to do any angles but I do have the lengths and percentages and I did alter the ribcage line:









Body length = 113mm
Scapula length = 44mm
Humorous length = 39mm

-Shoulder length is 39% of body length (greater than 1/3 so not bad)
-Humorous length is 88% of Scapular length (greater than 50%, I know you said longer is better but is 88% OK?)

Forearm = 44mm
Cannon = 21mm
Pastern = 8mm

-Forearm is 112% of Humorous (slightly longer)
-Cannon is 47% of Forearm (phew, less than 50%...just)
-Pastern is 38% of Cannon (not as bad as I thought she would be)

Leg isn't bad, if that forearm measurement is correct perhaps it explains the huge trot action she has?! Leg is relatively straight, pastern angle is somewhat exaggerated thanks to a farrier no-show that week :shock:


Ilium = 34mm
Femur = 32mm
Pelvis = 34mm

-Roughly equivilent, this is a good thing right? Interesting to see what the effect of pelvis angle would be in combination with these measurements.

Neck = 52mm
Back = 50mm
Ribcage = 53mm

-Back is 44% of body length
-Neck is 46% of body length
-Ribcage is 106% of back length

As I suspected, she is a loooong horse - pretty much all neck. Also, she is lacking topline which I am trying to combat with plenty of long and low work etc. Back is also a little long for my liking, again something for us to work on to ensure that it is well muscled and will stand up to hard work. Finally, she is the recipient of 'shark fin wither" syndrome sometimes found in TB's, a little more prominent than I would like to see. Yes, finding saddles that fit has been fun! Lastly her ribcage exceeds 98% which is a good thing. Not sure how to measure the loin depth? Neck seems to tie in to the shoulder OK, what are your thoughts Unicorn?


LS joint is _slightly_ ahead of the point of hip (not by much) so not too bad. Again I get the feeling that the angles will provide more insight to the functionality of her hip. Off to see what I can do about a protractor!


----------



## Supermane

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Supermane - his shoulder isn't that bad. It's a little steep, but the angle is fine (90 degrees is generally considered "very acceptable"...). The length of his shoulder and humorous both will counter his steepish shoulder slope... so really, there's nothing to be overly concerned about there.
> 
> You missed his forearm/humorous percentage, but I can see just looking at the measurements that it's longer... which is a good thing. His cannon isn't "too" long, but it is on the longer side - and I'll take your word for his pastern, since I actually can't see it.
> 
> I agree his length of back is ok, but I get a longer ribcage length than you did, I actually got about 110% of his back length, which makes for a nice short loin. He possibly loses some loin girth depth, but not critically so - and he's still got plenty. I wouldn't say he has a weak back at all, though he does have a bit higher wither than I'd think was "ideal".
> 
> I also wouldn't necessarily call his hind quarter "weak". I think you'd have a little more length to his hip/illum if it wasn't further from the camera than his shoulder... and the triangle formed is so close to being equal, that even though (in this shot) it looks like he lacks some length, he will still have the benefit of the right angles.


Thanks, this was really fun. Maybe I'll try and some good conformation shots of my other ones and practice on those as well.

Anyway, I'm glad you're doing this, as it's really hard to look at your own horse objectively.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

Shoulder slope is 46 degrees, excellent. Shoulder angle is 89.01 degrees... this is a little on the closed side, but still close enough to 90 that it's not going to really be any issue, especially considering the whole rest of her shoulder construction. 
Her humorous is a little TOO long, over 60% of the scapula is usually overkill, as it makes the horse "camped under". She is not so much so that it should effect her much. 

You expressed interest about how her hindquarter angles are going to effect her movement... and the answer is, that the angles are 58.2 degrees (hip) 59 degrees (femur) and 61 degrees (pelvis). That slightly extra tilt to her pelvis would make it harder for her to "change gears".. but, we're talking such a minimal amount of tilt, I doubt you'd really "notice" it.

The rest of her hind leg isn't bad either, her hock does extend past the plumbline - even if you mentally straighten her cannon... but it's hardly worth mentioning. She shows enough angulation to have both flexibility and power. 

The LS being forward is EXCELLENT. 

And if you look at her "box" you'll see she isn't really what one would consider a "long" horse at all. Actually, she's a really well balanced horse. She doesn't have a long back - long would be over 50% of her body length... and it's a bit of a myth that a longer back (within reason, naturally) is weaker. On it's own, back length has little to do with the strength of the back... strength comes from the wither and the loin. Her wither is a little on the higher side than would be ideal, a saddle fitting issue mainly. Her back/wither is actually pretty strong, and if you look from the base of wither to the LS joint you'll see that that whole (short) section is actually pretty strong looking. 

Loin girth is usually visual - you can draw a verticle line and place it at the flank, and another at the heart-girth(right behind the elbow) and measure them, they should be close to equal... but most people can "see" this without the use of a line. 

I like how her neck ties in alright... but the shape is not quite ideal being almost a ewe neck (in spite of the the strength the rest of her body has, her neck stands out as being the weakest portion). I'm not convinced that she actually it, she may simply be straight necked and holding her head funny, giving the appearance that her neck is structured wrong, but it's still not the most graceful looking part of her. 

Overall, I quite like this horse too. It does look like a better trim might help her out... there's a fair bit of toe there, but she's fit, and she's strongly built for both flexibility and scope... she should have pretty big movement, and still have the ability to flex... I would expect she can jump reasonably well too.


----------



## TheLastUnicorn

Supermane said:


> Thanks, this was really fun. Maybe I'll try and some good conformation shots of my other ones and practice on those as well.
> 
> Anyway, I'm glad you're doing this, as it's really hard to look at your own horse objectively.


That's actually why I learned how to do this. (and you can get really accurate by measuring the actual horse too!) It's a lot harder to argue with solid numbers... which kind of forces the rose colored glasses to come off. 

I think it's worth pointing out to people though, a horse's ability isn't solely dictated by it's conformation. Conformation is just one part of the equation that makes a good horse.... and I've yet to meet a horse of "perfect" conformation. So even if your horse doesn't meet the standard of PERFECTION it doesn't mean they are a "crappy" horse - it simply means they are not the "ideal" horse, from a structural standpoint.


----------



## sarahver

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Shoulder slope is 46 degrees, excellent. Shoulder angle is 89.01 degrees... this is a little on the closed side, but still close enough to 90 that it's not going to really be any issue, especially considering the whole rest of her shoulder construction.
> Her humorous is a little TOO long, over 60% of the scapula is usually overkill, as it makes the horse "camped under". She is not so much so that it should effect her much.
> 
> You expressed interest about how her hindquarter angles are going to effect her movement... and the answer is, that the angles are 58.2 degrees (hip) 59 degrees (femur) and 61 degrees (pelvis). That slightly extra tilt to her pelvis would make it harder for her to "change gears".. but, we're talking such a minimal amount of tilt, I doubt you'd really "notice" it.
> 
> The rest of her hind leg isn't bad either, her hock does extend past the plumbline - even if you mentally straighten her cannon... but it's hardly worth mentioning. She shows enough angulation to have both flexibility and power.
> 
> The LS being forward is EXCELLENT.
> 
> And if you look at her "box" you'll see she isn't really what one would consider a "long" horse at all. Actually, she's a really well balanced horse. She doesn't have a long back - long would be over 50% of her body length... and it's a bit of a myth that a longer back (within reason, naturally) is weaker. On it's own, back length has little to do with the strength of the back... strength comes from the wither and the loin. Her wither is a little on the higher side than would be ideal, a saddle fitting issue mainly. Her back/wither is actually pretty strong, and if you look from the base of wither to the LS joint you'll see that that whole (short) section is actually pretty strong looking.
> 
> Loin girth is usually visual - you can draw a verticle line and place it at the flank, and another at the heart-girth(right behind the elbow) and measure them, they should be close to equal... but most people can "see" this without the use of a line.
> 
> I like how her neck ties in alright... but the shape is not quite ideal being almost a ewe neck (in spite of the the strength the rest of her body has, her neck stands out as being the weakest portion). I'm not convinced that she actually it, she may simply be straight necked and holding her head funny, giving the appearance that her neck is structured wrong, but it's still not the most graceful looking part of her.
> 
> Overall, I quite like this horse too. It does look like a better trim might help her out... there's a fair bit of toe there, but she's fit, and she's strongly built for both flexibility and scope... she should have pretty big movement, and still have the ability to flex... I would expect she can jump reasonably well too.


Thank you so much!!! I had been trying to measure angles by copying and pasting into a program on the web but had no luck  So a huge thank you for helping me out there.

Thank you also for your honest opinion. I agree, her neck is her downfall undoubtedly but I am glad to hear that you don't think her back is too long. I am slowly building some topline on that neck, photo was taken a month ago so it is a little more muscled than this particular photo (and considerably more muscled than when I brought her home if you saw her 'before' photos in my other thread!) 

She is a bit of a hodge podge, certainly not the most 'correct' TB I have owned but I am happy to work with what I have got, knowing her shortcomings also really helps with the type of excercises that I design for her in the future.

Hope you're right about the jumping, after 6 months of flat work and basics I put her through a couple of grids and cavaletti for the first time this weekend and she is very willing and surprisingly, not an idiot. Keep your fingers crossed for me!!! 

Oh, one more note on her conformation, being a TB and a mare, there is one more fault that she has between her ears, let me illustrate:









Ah the poor girl, she's actually pretty good these days I should really stop picking on her :twisted: Got hooked using Paint though, what's a girl to do?


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## MIEventer

I am bumping this amazing thread back up - I think this needs to be a Sticky!


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## equiniphile

I agree there!


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## Tymer

While I agree that this would be great as a sticky, I think it might be easier if we put all the parts into a few posts at the beginning of a new thread, should the forum decide to sticky it.


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## MoheganSun

I agree! This thread is definitely sticky material!

here's my mare:









Can anyone give me the angles/measurements? My computer won't let me download any programs :/ Sorry! haha and let me know if she's 'good' or 'bad'


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## Adenfire

Okay so here's my guy. can someone please do the measurements and angles for me??? I suck at that kind of thing...and Thank you for doing this thread, we were just going over this in 4-H and I am using this info now to do a presentation type lesson for the Hippology kids  Oh and let me know what you think of my boy major issues and such.

*I do know he is standing a little under himself in front in this picture. not normal by any means though.

* and his neck is nasty, we're working on it. He was trained to drive in a broken frame so his muscling on his neck is weird.


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## MIEventer

MODS! This thread needs to be sticky'd please!! I think TheLastUnicorn did an amazing job with the conformation tutorial, that it should be readiliy available for all those who ask for critiques and those who want to learn how to critique. 

It is a shame that it gets burried under all those other threads.


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## CJ82Sky

agreed!


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## TheLastUnicorn

MoehganSun - your LS placement is too far back... Your horses back isn't that long. You want it in the "divit" right ahead of the point of croup. You also have the rib cage line too long. It should meet the body length line not go past it. 

ATM I'm on my mobile device so I too can't help with length and angles (apparently there's no good app for that lol). I'll try to remember to come back here when I'm home again though. 

MIE - thanks for bumping this up!


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## MIEventer

TheLastUnicorn said:


> MIE - thanks for bumping this up


You are more than welcome  This thread definately needs to be a sticky!


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## Sarahandlola

Subscribing to this so I can read it later!


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## MIEventer

THANK YOU for making this fantabulous thread, a sticky


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## Sarahandlola

So here is Lola..Are the points ok? I cannot do all that measurement thing..I was never good at maths XD


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## Mocha26

ohh man i really need to go take a picture asap. lol  LOVE this thread!!


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## JennyRae

Last Unicorn, thank you so much for taking the time to prepare this wonderful tutorial!:clap:


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## TheLastUnicorn

Sarahandlola said:


> So here is Lola..Are the points ok? I cannot do all that measurement thing..I was never good at maths XD


Her ribcage line is too long - you want it to end at her last rib, and intersect (touch) the body length line. 

Her shoulder line (your black one) should go through the center of her shoulder - from there it's position and where it "touches" the other dots will tell us something. 

I think the others are OK. I'm going to really try to remember to get back here later to do the measuring!


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## Rachel1786

I'm trying to do this with a pic of Bella, I have all the lines and dots where i think they go, but i can't measure, i downloaded bit ruler and screen protractor but i can't figure them out...can anyone help?








I know it's not the best confo pic, but i don't have anything better right now


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## MIEventer

I wanted to bump this fabulous thread back up - I see a lot of people asking for horse critiques, when they can come to this particular thread to read up on how to do the evaluations themselves.


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## heartprints62

Attemping to understand all of this, Help??


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## OTTBLover

Ok, so I had a go. Can someone take a look and tell me if I got all the dots/lines right before I go and measure them all?


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## TheLastUnicorn

OTTB, yes, all look pretty good! Your stifle joint dot may be a bit high... So keep that in mind if the measurement signifies something that doesn't "fit" your horse.


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## Day Mares

Wow. What a brilliant thread. I will be taking confo pics of my two tomorrow and will be back soon after. Can't wait!


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## ChingazMyBoy

Such an awesome thread - I keep seeing it and reminding myself to go take a picture!


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## Hunterjumper7654

This is what i've got.


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## Horsesdontlie

This thread is amazing, I'm surprised I never look at it before. I love it and hope no one minds me posting in an old thread. if you ever look here TheLastUnicorn can you check my work?

Jake :









Body Length : 283.2

Scapula : 104.6 px (36.9% Body Length)
Humorous : 77.4 (73.9% Scapula Length)
Scapula Angle : 51.5 degree
Humorous Angle : 35.8 degree
Total Angle : 87.3 Degree

Forearm : 65.1
Cannon : 53.0
Pasturn : 20.6

Hip-Butt : 91.8 (32% Body Length)
Femur : 79.8
Pelvis : 71.6

Back Length : 126 (44% Body Length)
Rib cage length : 142

Neck Length : 162.2 (57% Body Length)

Overall he has decent conformation? His LP is in front of his hip bone, and has in general good proportions of the front legs scapula and humorous length, but has a more closed shoulder angle and narrow hindquarters, though the hip to butt ratio to body is good. But the stifle to buttocks and hip to stifle are small. He has a thick, long neck with a huge head that makes him heavy on the fore, which is the only major flaw with the hip being narrow I can see from the tutorial and this angle of the picture. He seems to have a strong back, and is straight through his front legs, and if I could get him to pose correctly he would be close to the buttocks to hock straight down line. Am I right?

Dutchess : 








Dutchess
Body Length : 308

Scapula : 111.8 (36.2%bl)
Humorous : 86.5 (77.4%)
Scapula Angle : 54.4
Humorous Angle : 33.69
Total Angle : 88.09

Forearm : 86
Cannon : 54.2
Pasturn : 28.6

Hip-Butt : 106 (34.4%)
Femur : 79.8
Pelvis : 100.8

Back Length : 145 (47%)
Rib cage length : 149

Neck Length : 175.2 (57%bl)

She is pretty similar to Jake conformational rise other than having a better hindquarter proportion and having her LP closer to her hip bone. What would be considered more important, the LP position or the hip bone proportions?


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## TheLastUnicorn

HDL, grewt job. Your point of buttock on both horses is too low, and the rib line too long I think. Other than that... Pretty darn good!

H/J... I won't correct this photo since it won't deliver anything close to an accurate reading. Starting with a good photo is critical!


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## Horsesdontlie

Alright, thank you TLU. ^-^


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## Rachel1786

I did this a few months ago with a different pic but I wanted to try again, can someone check my points and please help with measurements, I can't figure out how to use bit ruler or screen protractor.


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## csimkunas6

Hah...finally did one of Rodeo. This is the best confo pic I have of him at the moment, I have recent ones from a few days ago, but they are at an angle....I wasnt able to do any measurements, as I didnt have anything to measure with, and I am absoutley horrid at math!










Im going through other pics at the moment to see if I can find better confo pics 

If anyone feels like doing some measurements, and some math feel free to measure him up!

Obviously, as seen in the pic, he is over at the knee. Also, with his one rear leg being rested, angles/measurements are most likely thrown off. Thanks


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## csimkunas6

Heres a better one(I hope)...in this one he looks like he is behind at the knee, but I know for a fact that he is over, but then again, hes not quite square either....

Ill have to go out and get some good square pics of the little ******!! Please keep in mind, that in the first pic I posted, he was only 15months old, and this pic here, he is not quite 18months old.

So Im figuring, proportions are going to be off with 1)having him not square and 2)him being so young.


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## Rachel1786

Rachel1786 said:


> I did this a few months ago with a different pic but I wanted to try again, can someone check my points and please help with measurements, I can't figure out how to use bit ruler or screen protractor.


I just did one of my 36ish year old retired quarter/arabian gelding, I think his conformation is pretty bad but I still can't figure out the measurements thing the matter how many times I try...Here is Blue, I'll try to get a shot of Legacy our fat appy tomorrow


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## Rachel1786

Rachel1786 said:


> I did this a few months ago with a different pic but I wanted to try again, can someone check my points and please help with measurements, I can't figure out how to use bit ruler or screen protractor.


ok, I figured out bit ruler but the screen protractor doesn't open enough to get the shoulder degree. I printed out a protractor and cut it out but I just can't get it to work. Here are my measurements for Bella.
Body Line-6.61
shoulder 2.72 41%
Humorous 1.78 65%
Forearm 1.7 95%
cannon 1.31 77%
Pastern .50 38%
Ilium 1.93 29%
femur 1.9 28%
Pelvis 2.1 31%
Back 2.78 42%
Loin 2.9 104%
Neck 2.79 53%

Does my whither dot look a little too far back? I'm thinking it might be which would change the back and loin measurement slightly.



Rachel1786 said:


> I just did one of my 36ish year old retired quarter/arabian gelding, I think his conformation is pretty bad but I still can't figure out the measurements thing the matter how many times I try...Here is Blue, I'll try to get a shot of Legacy our fat appy tomorrow


Blue
Body Line 10.91
Shoulder 4.51 41%
Humorous 2.75 60%
Forearm 2.53 92%
Cannon 2.04 80%
Pastern .73 35%
Ilium 3.21 29%
Femur 3.58 32%
Pelvis 3.33 30%
Back 5.41 49%
Loin 4.95 91%
Neck 5.57 51%

How does all that look? Off to find a good conformation pic of my chubby long backed appy


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## TheLastUnicorn

I haven't yet found an app I like for doing these on my iPad... So I can't help with the measurements... The first mare the wither dot is off, which also makes the shoulder angle (bit ruler will work but you may need to swap angles to get it right). Your shoulder dot may be off too.

On the old fella, his hip dot is too low, which will change the balance of his hindquarter... Really his pelvic length isn't as short and the angle is not as flat as what you currently have.


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## OTTBLover

Ok, TheLastUnicorn, I have finally taken a better confo pic. I was wondering if you could take a look at it for me. Once I get the all clear I'll do the measurements.


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## TheLastUnicorn

Your ribcage line may (or may not... Hard to tell from the photo) be a little long... I have a feeling that the last rib is a bit further ahead than your dot


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## OTTBLover

Ok thanks TLU - I'll make an adjustment before I measure all her lines and dots, then I'll come back with my summary of her conformation.


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## palmettogirl915

Will someone check my dots before I get to measuring? Thank you!


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## TheLastUnicorn

The point of wither is about 3mm back (your dot is actually her neck) and point of shoulder needs to move back about 3mm too. 

Point of hip goes up about 2mm and back about 2mm, stifle goes back about 2mm (you want to mark the center of the joint)

Everything else looks good


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## Rachel1786

OK, trying this on my appy now, maybe I have all the dots correct for him lol










Body Line-6.57
Shoulder 2.45 37%
Humerus 1.72 70%
forearm 1.51 93%
cannon .98 64%
Pastern .48 48%
Ilium 1.91 29%
stifle 1.95 29%
pelvis 2.07 31%
back 3.40 51%
lion 3.1 91%
Neck 3.33 50%


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## TheLastUnicorn

Hip dot is a bit too high... You want it placed at the center of his "hip bump"


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## SunnyGlen

Great tutorial! Curious: what is a sticky?


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## bytegoddess

*Amazing Tutorial!*

I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post such an excellent, thorough tutorial... I will learn a LOT from this. I really appreciate your generosity in sharing your knowledge and admire your ability to present the material in such an accessible, clear manner. You are to be applauded! :clap:


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## dirtroadangel

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sirgalahadkem

Did I do this right?


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## Susan Crumrine

I can't draw the lines for my new girl, not that great on a computer, but here she is if anyone else wants a practice horse....
Don't worry you won't hurt my feelings, I thinks she's the greatest and nothing anyone says will change that....LOL


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## EvilHorseOfDoom

OK here goes... Took me a while to find some bits under all the fat 










Shoulder – 105
Body – 254
*Shoulder/Body - 41%*

Humerus – 67
*Humerus/Shoulder - 64%*

*Shoulder slope - 46 deg*
*Shoulder angle - 78 deg*

Forearm - 67
Cannon - 47
*Forearm/Humerus - 100%*
*Cannon/Forearm - 70%*

[no view of feet but large and quite round - dinner plates!!]

Illium - 88
*Illium/Body - 35%*

Femur - 83
*Femur/Illium - 94%*

Hip - 83
Hip/Illium = 94%

Back - 95
*Back/Body - 37%*
Ribs – 100
*Back/Ribs - 99%*

So... long sloping shoulder, short back (I was surprised, he always looks long in the back when I look at him), high in the withers (but he is part TB) and a little downhill and a bit long in the illium in comparison to the hip and femur. But otherwise pretty normal (just fat as anything... in the process of remedying this!!)?

Any thoughts?

Edit: And thank you, amazing tutorial!!


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## Shadow Puppet

Okay, I don't know if I did this right but when ever I measured everything worked out perfectly...I don't know if she actually that well built?...


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## xJumperx

Here is my boy if someone wants to measure and play with it


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## QtrBel

Can I add a couple. Let me note the neck on the pali is compressed i think he thought she wanted him to back and on both legs are off and not square but these were just photos lying around. Both are QH. The bay is 15 hands, the pali 15.3 I also just guessed on Shoulder Slope and Angle - if someone could help me measure?

These are the numbers for the pali. 
Body Length 95
Shoulder Length 40
Sh/BL% 42%
Humerus 24
H/Sh% 60%
Shoulder Angle 90
Shoulder Slope 50
Forearm 27
Cannon 19
Pastern 8

Cannon Circumference 7 3/4"
Front
F/H 112%
C/F 70%
P/C 42%
Rear
Fore/Femur 114%
C/F 65%
P/C 30%

Illium 34
I/BL 42%
Femur 35
F/BL 37%
Pelvis 32
Back 40
B/BL 42%
Ribcage 43
R/BL 107%
Neck 46
N/BL 48%


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## QtrBel

And the Bay 

Body Length 61
Shoulder Length 27
Sh/BL 44%
Humerus 17
H/Sh 63%
Shoulder Angle 90
Shoulder Slope 50

Front Rear
Forearm 18 20
Cannon 12 17
Pastern 5 5

Cannon Circumference 7 1/2"

F/H 106% 95%
C/F 67% 85%
P/C 42% 29%

Ilium 21
I/BL 34%
Femur 19
F/BL 31%
Pelvis 20
Back 30
Ba/BL 49%
Ribcage 34
R/Ba 113%
Neck 32
N/BL 52%

LS sits just in front of hip.

Both are used for trails. The bay is being worked to muscle him up some. Will be working the pali more in the fall.


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## G8tdh0rse

Dr Deb Bennet does a wonderful conformational analysis. She tells you what effect the changes in the horses conformation make in his movement. For example the length and angle of the humerous can determine how far the horse can reach out with his front legs and lift his knees. 

She has written several books and has a nice website.


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## Norma M Sutton

I know a few of my points are off, but I would be interested in hearing what someone else sees. I don't have a way of doing the angles on this computer, but did the measuring with a sheet of paper and tick marks lol. You would think a seamstress by trade could at LEAST locate a tape measure . . . oh well.

I'm not sure how old Emma was in this photo, it was taken before I got her and I don't have a more recent one decent enough for conformation. I'm guessing she was 3 or 4 in this one and she's 5 or 6 now. Not really sure of her breed, some Appy, some Paint, some Arab possibly and my brother thinks some Walking horse going from how her back end moves.  Whatever the combination I enjoy riding her lol


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## KJsDustyDash

So, here's my girl. 
So far it looks like she's a little long in the neck and her shoulder angle is a little less than ideal but overall she looks ok. She is a really smooth mover (not as smooth as my other mare), and she jumps really well. 
What do you think? I'm not sure if I put the points in the right places...


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## Smokum

Wow this was a lot of fun. 
Unfortunately I' am horrible at math and cant understand it.
I took a picture of my horse and I measured him, Used the box effect but that didn't work. I dont have a protractor so i played with one online.
But I cant add measurements into fractions or angels.

I used a measuring tape and string on his body instead
The length of body just almost 77
The length of scapula is 25
The length of humerus is 14 1/2
The length of (Point of butt to hip, to stifle) are all 19 1/2.
I could use a little help. the point of his hip though was tough. its right inbetween three spots more so to the left of the spots if that helps the view


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## jurassicsap

Newbie here  I've been enjoying learning about conformation from this tutorial. I don't have a horse to feel anatomical landmarks so some of the locations might be off. Can someone tell me how I'm doing? I need to head out but can edit to add my interpretations when I get back.

A couple of local craigslist horses:



















Susan Crumrine's:









Averylilly's:


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## arrowattack09

I only have access to a computer at work, and they wiped off our paint program, and of course limited us from downloading anything. If anyone has some free time on their hands, I would really appreciate if someone would do this tutorial on my mare! If not, no big deal. Just thought I'd ask. 

Thank you!


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## Breella

Thoughts?









www.horseforum.com/horse-conformation-critique/critique-topaz-156533/


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## Southern Grace

*Welsh Cob yearling*










Okay, so here is a guy I am considering purchasing. He's a yearling (just shy of 12 months) so measurement critiques might be a bit harsh on his still growing body, but I gave it my best.

His box is slightly taller than long, but I feel this is typical with youngsters. He is also a bit bum high (children).

So I got a body length of 554
Shoulder is 38% of body
Humerous is 66.6% of shoulder
Shoulder slope is 55.05 degrees
Shoulder angle is 83.7 degrees

For the Foreleg are we measuring elbow to center of knee, or center level with elbow and straight down?

His cannon bone is 77% of his elbow to knee measurement
Pastern is 45.97 degrees

Illium is 33.3% of body (spot on minimum)
But to Stifle length is 92.2% of illium
Pelvis is 91% of illium

His back is 46.5% of body length (if I put the dot in the right place, I'm not too sure)
Rib cage is 95.3% of back length (also, depending on other spot)
His neck is 48.7% of body length

Any other comments? Does he look even for a yearling?


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## LemonZeus

My boy Zeus! Am I right in thinking his neck is crazy long??

Body: 672

Shoulder: 273
40.6% of body
(no less 1/3)

Humerus: 160
58.6% of shoulder
(50-60%)

Sh. Slope: 60*
(40-55*)

Sh. Angle: 87*
(100*)

Forearm: 179
(close or longer
than humerus)

Cannon: 121
(67.5% of forearm)
(>50, <75)

Pastern:56 
(46% of cannon)
(30-50%)

Hip: 231
(34% BL)
(>,=1/3 BL)

Femur: 213
(close to hip)

Pelvis: 181
(close to hip)

Back: 204
(44.9% of BL)
(<50% of BL)

Loin: 321
(157%)
(98% or more BL)

Neck: 408
(60% of BL)
(30-50%)










Also, his left front hoof is clubbed, does that make a difference?


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## Equestrienne92

*Delete please*

Delete please


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## larissahp

I have read this thread probably 10 times over the last few days. This tutorial is super !
I really wanted to measure the horse I'm riding and compare him to the ideal but, being a little obsessive and also somewhat lazy, I tried to search for a program or app that does all the measuring for me, and I can't believe something like this doesn't already exist... so I wrote one myself.
It took me a couple days, and it definitely still has some bugs to work out but if you want to try it out and let me know you can find it here: Editor

I compared my calculations with some of the previously posted calculations and I don't get the exact same numbers... I'm not sure yet if thats due to an error on my part, or an error on the part of the posters. So if you can find something I've done wrong please let me know and I'll get it fixed up.

Basic instructions:
Use the sample horse (the lovely Brego!), or load your own image by pressing "Choose File", then press start to load the basic dots. You can move them all into position by clicking-and-dragging on each handler. Once you are happy with the placement press "Analyse" to get the measurements. You should be able to copy/paste the measurements if you want to share them, and you can save a PNG of the image by pressing "Save PNG". This will open a new window (might be slow!) with a png you can right-click on and Save Image.

You'll have to read through the tutorial posts in this thread for accurate placement of the dots.

Would love to hear feedback if you find it helpful or have any suggestions.


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## trailhorserider

Very cool, thank you for the program! 

I never bothered to do this before, although I've read parts of the thread. But your program made it so easy! "If" I got my dots in the right place. Are they okay? 

So here goes!


Measurement Ideal Your Horse 
Shoulder / Body Length minimum 33% 45% 
Humerous / Shoulder Length 50% - 60% 47% 
Shoulder Slope 40° - 55° 53° 
Shoulder Angle 100° 107° 
Forearm / Humerous Length 98% or more 162% 
Cannon / Forearm Length 50% - 75% 69% 
Pastern / Cannon Length 30% - 50% 39% 
Illium / Body Length 33% or less 29% 
Femur / Illium Length 100% 103% 
Back / Body Length 50% or less 40% 
Ribcage / Back Length 98% or more 124% 
Neck / Body Length 30% - 50%% 60%


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## larissahp

I'm not a great judge of the placement of the dots yet myself, so I'll let someone else answer that but I do notice a bug with the shoulder angle calculation that I'll have to correct later today when I'm back at my computer. Thanks for giving it a try


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## Smilie

KJsDustyDash said:


> So, here's my girl.
> So far it looks like she's a little long in the neck and her shoulder angle is a little less than ideal but overall she looks ok. She is a really smooth mover (not as smooth as my other mare), and she jumps really well.
> What do you think? I'm not sure if I put the points in the right places...


I see a horse that is front end heavy, with a steep croup

Far as all those measurements, I just divide a horse in thirds and look for all over body balance
An ideal performance horse, you can draw a trapezoid. Neck should not tie in low, and whither should tie in smoothly into the back.
Hind limbs, front limbs should be scored for major and minor 
faults Proportions alone do not define good conformation, A horse could have 'desired \ measurements, but if the knees are off set, means not much
Those dots, if they worked, should show that this horse lacks balance
No problem with neck being too long, but it ties in low and back legs look posty


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## Smilie

Here is the trapezoid theory in measuring balance, which an athletic horse has to have
https://www.aqha.com/daily/riding/2016/riding-archive/the-trapezoid-theory/

Northwest Horse Source Articles: Trapezoid Conformation


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