# New horse owner, poor ground manners



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

It sounds like he should know better if he brought that kind of money. 

The one time my horse nipped me, I jerked very hard on her rope halter, spewing profanity while making her back up. The one time she kicked me, I had a crop in my hand and I whacked her several times, accompanied by the proper level of profanity and yelling. Neither of the two things every happened again. 

For a punishment to be effective, it need to be immediate. They don't understand if you leave three seconds between the nip and your response.

If it were me, I would ride more and handle on the ground less. Your horse is trying to decide who is in charge. If he is obedient when riding, that seems like a good way to establish that.

*Absolute no no's are biting, kicking, shoving, and getting in your space.* 

If you need someone to help you tack up, then ask them to. 

Stopping all hand feeding was a very good idea. 

Is there a smaller place that you could board? Maybe it is just too busy.

One thing that I am convinced of. It is not a cruelty to a horse to insist that he behave. It is a cruelty to do otherwise because it can earn him a trip to either a horrible life or the end of his life. 

He bites. You whack. Now. Act furious. Mean. Like you might just kill him. But only for 3 seconds. (Don't injure him, but think about how big he is. You won't hurt him unless you use a hard object to hit him with.) Then all is forgiven and you start over. Don't stay mad. 

Watch horses in the pasture. If one tries to take the other one's food away, they will squeal, bite, kick, and then they are immediately best friends again. That is the way horses are. 

I am an amateur, but I have been riding horses for over 50 years and I'm not dead yet. 

I hope that he works out for you. If he rides well, I suspect it will.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

You purchased him a couple of weeks ago but you have been riding him for around four months.

1. His manners did not get this bad in the two weeks since you purchased him.

2. Was he this onery on the ground when you first started working with him four months ago?

If he was, he was never worth “about 7K”.

If he was not this bad, over time your lack of knowledge and being able to sense when he is about to Rule, has now made him the boss.

2.1. A 45-horse barn is way bigger than I would ever want to be associated with BUT, there has to be a trainer or two available to work with both you and the horse, as you need lessons on how to properly handle the horse.

2.2. With all due respect, if you paid around 7K for a horse and you have zero experience, there should have been money put back for lessons on handling for yourself

3. Hopefully you can get some lessons before the horse ends up not rideable over the passage of time


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

jscheiner.09 said:


> Hi Horse community.
> My name is Jordan, I am a 29 year old new horse owner. I began riding horses around 5 months ago, and prior to that, my horse experience was near zero.
> 
> A couple of weeks ago, I purchased a 5 year old QH Gelding named Rusty. I have been riding him for the past 4 months about twice a week. I am with him almost every day for a couple hours. I keep him at a barn with 45+ other horses.
> ...


Hi there! Well, take my opinion for what it is, just some random horse forum poster's thoughts! :smile: 

Is the biting aggressive or just hand=food=open my mouth and take it? For me personally, five is still young for a horse. Young horses get distracted, they get bored, they forget themselves. And therefore, they do stupid things and need reminders of how we behave proper. You may need to change to a leather halter that is more substantial and allows for a more precise correction. Since he's boarded it's very hard to determine what his handling is like when you are not there--and as you said, could be regressing any positive gains you make. 

With regards to his difficulty with bridling, could he possibly dislike (due to possible pain/discomfort) the bit? I would want to make sure the bit was fitted correctly and no dental issues were the underlying cause of this behavior. 

If you don't feel that his behavior on the ground is something you want to deal with, then by all means, move on and find a horse you can groove with. I really don't see him being a difficult horse to sell if that is the direction you choose to pursue. Riding is supposed to be fun and relaxing, a pastime you can look forward to. There's nothing wrong with saying "this isn't working for me". 

I wish you the best of luck going forward. inkunicorn:


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Your horse is taking advantage of you and your not knowing how to handle him and his antics...
He is testing you....
Biting is a no-no...if he even moves his lips he gets growled at at the least and may indeed need a instant backhand where ever it may land...
If he was in a herd of horses and he opened his mouth against another he would be very swiftly and harshly reprimanded...no teeth...
Reprimand then move on...instant retribution then drop it and move on like it did not occur is how herd hierarchy is and how you must condition yourself in response.
Expect the best, prepare for the worst and make it count if you must reprimand or discipline...
Your horse is close to 1,000 pounds to your ...120...you are a gnat felt unless you truly mean it and land a swat with intention to be felt.
Never the face, _never intentionally strike the face_...the neck, chest or other body parts...and watch for surprise, a swift return of intent to hurt you, teeth or feet aimed in your direction.

So, when you used this horse prior to purchasing did he have the same habits of biting/nipping?
Was he difficult to bridle?
Did he push you around and get in your space?
Was he obnoxious as he sounds now?
Price means nothing...people will charge what they think someone can be taken for....
That is a fact is selling and buying horses...profit made, the more the better.

As for a distracted and roaming mind when you are riding...or handling the horse on the ground.
Do you ride to engage the horse and keep him thinking or do you just go round and round in a ring/arena following another so the horse doesn't need to think and pay attention?
Learn to do things with the horse...circles, spirals, serpentine, teardrops change of direction...break up the monotony and keep the horse thinking and listening to you keeps their mind active and working on paying attention not being bored and mind-wandering.

So... you bought a horse...
When is the last time the horse was seen by a vet or dentist for tooth and mouth care?
If the horse has a bad tooth, a rough edge on a tooth it hurts them and they will do everything they can to evade accepting a bit...
When you bridle the horse have you banged his teeth with the bit a few times?
Common for beginners to do this but it is uncomfortable and can make the mouth sore = evasion of him backing up, raising and tossing his head.
Someone needs to teach you hot to use your bridle reins to keep the horse from wandering away, then teach you how to secure the head of the horse using the headstall and your hand placement on the nose so they can't evade you and accepting the bit and bridle.
Also make sure your horse not have any sores near his ears or inside his ears cause when you bend a ear or touch a ear and it has a ouch..it hurts.
There are many things you have to learn to look for and how to anticipate and outsmart the horse to win the battle before the animal knows it has even begun...
_You will never out-muscle a horse so you must outsmart them..._
Out think and set the horse up for success and good not failure nor bad actions that get him reprimanded and disciplined..
It takes time to learn these and you now are on a crass-course to learn since you bought a horse with minimal skills behind you to utilize...
Owning your own is very different than riding the school horse who is ridden and kept in check by other more experienced riders and barn staff...
That knowledge will come to you too...in the meantime surround yourself with knowledgeable horse-people who can help by showing you, example shown and then you do yourself...people who are kind but consistent disciplinarians and have horses that are well behaved, ride well and are a pleasure to be around, not always smacking or yelling at their animals.
You can learn a huge amount by watching...both good and bad!
You also can learn a ton by having someone take you under their wing and show you how-to-do safely...
Good luck and choose carefully those who you want as a mentor and to emulate {copy} how they handle and work with their horse.
Your journey is just beginning.. 

:runninghorse2:...


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

Thank you for the notes. I agree, I think he should have been a little easier to handle on the ground for that kind of money. He has a good bloodline, and is a very smart horse, but Its hard for me to use him when he can't do the basics.

I believe he is testing me. As far as a smaller place, I will be moving him to my parents barn in March or April. There will only be 2 horses there. The only thing is, I need this horse to be well behaved by then as my parents will be helping with the care half the time and they are in their 70's. 
He definitely is trying to test me. I hope his behavior changes as I work with him more.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

horselovinguy said:


> Your horse is taking advantage of you and your not knowing how to handle him and his antics...
> He is testing you....
> Biting is a no-no...if he even moves his lips he gets growled at at the least and may indeed need a instant backhand where ever it may land...
> If he was in a herd of horses and he opened his mouth against another he would be very swiftly and harshly reprimanded...no teeth...
> ...



Thank you for that very detailed response. Very helpful information in it.

With that being said, are a few of these problems possibly fixed with round pen work and ground work with moving their feet? How do I make those ground exercises of them moving their feet, yielding, circles etc fun? Do they find that enjoyable or is just busy work for them? Or is it enjoyable when the get the release and they do not have to do it anymore?


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I answered in your post..
I hope explaining some of what I do and have done helps to give you options and more possibilities to choose from.
Others guaranteed will have other ideas to share with you...
You need to take what feels right to you, what you can handle as you learn and what you can store away for future times when you are more experienced.



jscheiner.09 said:


> Thank you for that very detailed response. Very helpful information in it.
> *With that being said, are a few of these problems possibly fixed with round pen work and ground work with moving their feet?
> *_To me, no..._
> _Real round pen work is done away from your person.._
> ...


 Hope that helps you some...do enjoy that project and don't be afraid to ask for help, for guidance if you feel overwhelmed.
Most horse people will be more than happy to offer help so do chose from who it comes carefully.
:runninghorse2:...


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I agree with @horselovinguy . If you feel safe riding your horse, ride him. Get someone to help you tack him up and mount and then ride. If you are only comfortable in the arena, that is ok. I find the best way to have fun with my horse is to get out on a trail and just go. Maybe you can get someone to ride too. With 45 horses, there should always be plenty of help around.


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## AliceWalker (May 7, 2019)

You've already got lots of info, but I'll contribute what I can.

Firstly ill disagree with what one person said previously - I don't think that riding more will correct groundwork. Horses, like almost all animals besides humans, are bad at generalizing. This means they don't tend to take information they learned in one scenario and apply what they learned to a scenario that looks completely different. A.k.a, learning obedience in the saddle doesn't mean they'll understand obedience on the ground. All he'll know is he can get away with rudeness in one scenario and not the other.

Creating an understanding of boundaries is certainly really important but be sure not to fall into the trap of alpha-beta domination. Oftentimes this backfires, or at the very least results in a fearful and resentful horse. You can establish boundaries and rules without beating them up or running them around mindlessly for hours. 

Speaking of running, you asked about lunging meaningfully and although I'm not the person you directed the question to, I'll answer what I believe. Yes, work should absolutely be meaningful and not just running around. You mentioned that more experienced people at the barn had you run your horse a lot and that made some of his manners better, which concerns me. Being able to avoid bad behaviors simply because they're too exhausted to fight back is not training, its just masking symptoms to a deeper problem. It doesn't make the problem go away, just covers it.

When working your horse, you should always have purpose. What are you working on? What are you asking? What is he getting rewarded for? For example, if you're working your horse because he's been rude, you may run him hard for a few minutes, but anything past that and he's already forgotten what he's being punished for. Horses don't have long term memory like us and after a minute or so your horse is no longer associating the exercise with what he did wrong. That being said, you don't necessarily want him to stop working at any old time. Ideally, he should be paying attention to you, one ear in one eye on you, essentially asking "please may I stop working" before giving him a break. If he's just running mad in circles, he isn't learning anything. But there's lots of things a horse can learn while lunging, including softness, body language cues personal space, and more. Spending time lunging with these goals in mind is great for ground manners, but as always its important to not just run them in circles mindlessly.
Reward him for the behavior you're looking for often with releases and breaks.

I agree with what someone said previously about bridling - could be a pain issue. However if everything checks out vet wise, you may be dealing with a horse who has very bad associations with the bridle, meaning he hates how he's been worked in the past so much that just the thought of the bridle scares him. In that case, you want to make sure that you're not contributing to the problem by riding heavy handed and making him associate the bridle with pain. If you're worried this could be case, transition to a softer bit and work on light hands. It could also be something from his past you aren't contributing to but that has become so ingrained in his mind that the bridle still gives him fear. In this case you'll want to spend time with him in bridle without doing any work. Every other time you bridle him, just walk him around and let him relax. Feed him treats, even. Then after a few minutes take it off. Show him a bridle doesn't have to be bad. 

Last but not least, oftentimes riders make a bridling issue worse by turning every bridling into a war. Then at that point the horse is no longer resisting because of associating the bridle with work or pain, but because he associates the bridle with being yanked around as someone forces a bridle on his head. Its no longer an issue of what comes after the bridle, but the pain and trauma of bridling itself. In that case you might need to start from the ground up, slowly introducing it to him again as you would a young horse so he feels safe with the process. Never force him to accept it ever again - let him slowly get used to it, realize it doesn't have to be a fight and reward him for doing well.

A lot of people are agreeing with you that stopping all treats is a good idea- I dont think its necessarily a bad idea per se, but I dont think its entirely necessary either. A mouthy horse can learn to not be mouthy even with food. In fact, I think its really important for a mouthy horse to learn manners whether food is present or not. If you simply take way food altogether, they won't be mouthy but they also won't learn how to be polite around food, since you'll never train them out of the behavior. Its important to show them that you are allowed to have food without them interfering constantly. There's a really fun and easy trick to accomplish this - put food in your hand, and open your hand to the horse. When they dive for it, close your hand and bat them away if they try to go for it anyway. Do this over and over until they learn that any time they reach for the food, they get swatted. Once you csn open your palm without them diving for the food, reward them by taking a piece of food out of your open palm with your other hand and giving it to them (its important you don't let them eat out of the same palm you've been training with since it'll just confuse them - I couldn't watch out of your palm but now I can?) You can do this with all types of scenarios, including treats in pockets, on the ground, etc. Of course, that being said, if youre not confident enough with his mouthing yet its best to leave food out of the picture completely until you're ready. All I'm saying is these manners should be trained eventually.

As what someone else said with the biting, get "mean" - sqat them away, yell, raise your hands, chase them off. Make them scared of doing it again and show them its completely unacceptable. But, again, only for a few seconds. Horses have short memories and will only associate the punishment with the crime for a short time.
Thats all I have to offer so far - good luck 🙂


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I also have a Rusty, and he also is pretty bad at respecting my space. I bought him as a barely started 6 year old two years ago. He's improving all the time. 

I do think that your Rusty needs a lot of ground work to learn to respect you. I agree with not hand-feeding treats. You can still reward him for being good using praise. Horses understand different tones of voice. If you do decide to use food as reward, you can also treat at the end of a ground work session (these can be pretty short - like 15-20 minutes at the MOST) by putting a treat in his feed pan. Make sure your parents never treat him when he is moved there, because he will quickly revert. Tell them that if they want to give an apple or carrot, it has to be given in his food dish. Ground work exercises can be pretty basic and mostly will consist in yielding to pressure. You want to make it pretty easy, especially at first, because what you're teaching is not how to yield his hindquarters (he should already know that), but rather, compliance. You want to teach him that you are the leader and that he must do what you say. There are some good leading exercises out there too which you should work on. 

The biting is unacceptable of course. My daughter's horse did this when we first got him and she was so intimidated (she was only 11 at the time) that she wouldn't lead him. I took over and carried a sharp nail in the palm of my hand, pointy end sticking out. When he would go to nip me, he would get the nail in the muzzle. This surprises the horse, and rather than think you hurt them intentionally, they think "geez that human is prickly - I'd better not bite them again". It only took a few times for him to figure it out and now he never tries to bite anymore. I have let 4 year olds lead him, ride him, and he's a perfect gentleman. That being said, I also treated him for ulcers which definitely helped as well. 

My own Rusty was also a little head-shy and would stick his head way up in the air when I'd try to bridle him. His former owner thought he needed more padding on the poll, and bought him a 600$ anatomical bridle. I declined to buy it off her, and instead, did two things: 1 - I discovered he had very sensitive ears, probably due to having aural plaques. Treating those is nearly impossible since it is painful, so I left them alone, but always made sure he had a fly mask with ears so they would be protected. 2 - I used my halter-bridle combo which is basically a headstall that I can unbuckle on the side like a halter so I didn't have to pull the headstall over the back of his ears, I could just put it over like a halter. Rusty would also sometimes just put his head up when I presented the bit, so we worked on that a lot. I used treats in my hand or given after he accepted the bit, but you won't want to do that. You can, however, rub the bit with applesauce, peppermint drops, etc. I don't force it, I just stand there with the bit on his lips and wait for him to accept it. I don't play the giraffe game, I just patiently wait - do this when you're not going to ride him so you aren't feeling hurried. When he accepts it, praise, and take it back out. Do this often. Now, I can use a normal bridle with Rusty, he will let me do anything with his ears, and he takes the bit right away. 

The last thing I would say is that lifestyle can also create a lot of bad habits. How much turnout does he get? What does his diet look like? Has he been examined to rule out things like ulcers? The more relaxed a horse is, and the more turnout they get, the more they tend to be compliant. A lot of horses are just full of pent-up frustration and energy and this often comes out in a bad way.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

AliceWalker said:


> You mentioned that more experienced people at the barn had you run your horse a lot and that made some of his manners better, which concerns me. Being able to avoid bad behaviors simply because they're too exhausted to fight back is not training, its just masking symptoms to a deeper problem. It doesn't make the problem go away, just covers it.
> When working your horse, you should always have purpose.


This is such a good quote, I was afraid it might get lost in that long post. I wanted to pull it out and emphasize it. I'm no training expert, but I really agree with this. Not to mention, with some horses they just get more and more fit and then you just have to round pen them longer and longer to get where you want to be.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

AliceWalker - 
Thank you for the long response! I appreciate the time you took to write it.
I do need to clarify that when we worked him to be a little tired, it was more as a training aid for me. She worked him for about 10 minutes, then had me go in there and I worked him for about 10 minutes. We were not just sending him in circles. We did have directional changes and transitions. Initially he was defiant, but more towards the end of the exercise he was more tuned into us. Our purpose for that exercise session was more respect based, then just to run him tired. 
I will take your advice with putting the bridle on and off and just practicing with that. Is it okay to work on bridling him if I don't intent to ride him that day? Somedays I have more time than others and it just works out better to work on ground manners, instead of riding. More often than not, I have time for both.

Acadianartist -
I am trying to get him to not bite, but he really isn't budging with that (it has only been a short time working with him on it). I would prefer not to wack him in the jowl or cheek, I am afraid he will get head shy. I have been trying to block him and that works, but sometimes he just connects with me gets a good nibble and it definitely hurts a little.

I am finding it hard to do some exercises because he just tries to get close enough to me to bite me. I was working on backing up with him today (grabbing underneath the halter knot and shaking it to get him to move backwards.) I did start with light pressure, then went to a shake and eventually an aggressive shake if he didn't budge. He learned that quickly but after a little bit of it he was just trying to bite my hand or arm. That is something I am noticing, I am trying to work with him and he just reverts to trying to bite me. When I was walking him I did feel him getting closer and closer to me and I think once he extended out to bite me when I was walking him.

As far as lifestyle, he is out of his stall everyday from 9-3:30/4ish. At my parents he will be way more free and have an in/out. He has had a PPE performed about 2 weeks ago.

I have been filming sessions with him when I work so I can look back and see how I/he acts.

Today, I was working on backing up with him. I would start at the knot, and not put much pressure. If I was not moving, I would shake it a little more, and if he really didn't move or back up I would aggressively shake. The problem with this, is the more I would grab for it, the more he would try and bite me. At the 5 minute mark, you can see me walking him around and he reaches out to bite me when I am facing the other way. My flag work is very new, so please give me any critiques...

The more time I spend with him, the more and more I feel like he is just resenting me.


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## AliceWalker (May 7, 2019)

ACinATX said:


> This is such a good quote, I was afraid it might get lost in that long post. I wanted to pull it out and emphasize it. I'm no training expert, but I really agree with this. Not to mention, with some horses they just get more and more fit and then you just have to round pen them longer and longer to get where you want to be.


That's such a kind compliment, I'm flattered! Thank you!

To original poster: Thanks for that arificstion. If you're working with purpose, that's fine. Just be careful his behavior isn't improving only because he's tired. Sometiems tiring a horse out slightly can be a training aid, as it'll help the horse focus if they're spooky or have a bucking problem, for example, where the high adrenaline is making it hard for them to focus on your direction. But it should never be the only thing stopping their behavior and never done to exhaustion. Absolutely you can just bridle him without riding him. In fact, its better that way because you show him that the bridle doesn't always mean work. 
Your personal space is a privilege for your horse, not a right. If I have a horse I know is respectful, I give them permission to be in my personal space because I know they won't take advantage of me. But with a horse like yours, I'd take that privilege away until he's ready. If he comes into your space (say, his head within two to three feet of your body) push him out with big gestures. By walking into your space, especiallynwith the intent to bite, he says "you don't own this space, I do and I can do what I want with it" and you have to teach him the opposite. You own the space and decide whats done with it. When he learns to respect your space and only come into it politely and/or when you ask, then you can allow him in. Until then he hasn't earned it.
I cannot agree with what someone about the nail in the palm said... I know that person isn't using it to jab the horse, that they're just running into it, but it still seems unnecessary and very VERY dangerous. If something happened and you had a nail in your hand, who knows what could go wrong. Biting is unacceptable, certainly and you should make it clear that it's intolerable, but swatting the horse away with a palm is effective and safe for everyone involved.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I stopped watching the video at about the 2 minute mark...if it changes after that, no idea but saw enough to start to offer a critique.
You are very abrupt, very fast handling the horse...soften your movements.
You do not give the horse the chance to respond but a split second and shake his halter pretty violently.
You go to stop the horse...but your hand and arm are raised in threat.
You spin around back at the horse who then tosses his head in surprise and reaction to you...

So, soften your approach.
I didn't have my speakers on so not sure if you spoke to the animal.
A hand placed against the neck and chest and say "back"...simple, one-word commands.
You start soft and increase the pressure as it is needed. In this case you escalated from not asking to shouting at the horse with your body language...the horse is caught off-guard and startled.

You want him to stop...and I mean stop... "whoa" and that should mean he no matter how fast is moving comes to a screeching halt. 
"WHOA" is one word of command all horses should know and respond to in case of danger from anything headed their way... "WHOA" might just save theirs and your life.
"Easy" is a word mine recognize for slow down...
The secret is one word, short syllable and the tone of voice it is said with to convey your intent too.

But you need to be more aware of your body English as it is heightened and screaming at this animal.
The horse feels aggression, hence his reaction to you is head up, eye bulges...bet the nostril flared of what did I do...he is prepared for a strike.
Even when you went to pet the horses face..._slow it down_. 
Many horses do not like a hand in front of their face, in front of their eyes in a threatening position that makes them vulnerable and they can not see as well that close directly in front of them either.

I was always told a horses eye magnifies 10x what they see.
Because the eye is placed on the side of the head they don't see as well directly in front of them...guess where much of your direction came from...
The placement of the eye on a horse allows them to see nearly all the way behind them, but not directly in front.
If that is not true, I invite those who know better to correct me. 

But do soften your approach, use your voice, talk quietly and gently, ...not babble at the animal.
See if that "softer" not give you a better starting position of working with your horse in harmony of trusting each other.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo.._.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

Horselovinguy thank you for the response. I will definitely give him more time to respond. I guess I was shaking his halter to get him to backup a little too early without giving him the chance to try and figure it out. If I go towards the bottom of his halter, and hold it, I want him to start to back up.
When he did not move, I began to shake, then shake more aggressively. But, I will give him more time to figure it out like you recommend. I was shown recently to occasionally throw my head around aggressively to make sure he knew he cannot be in my space - but thinking about it, it just scares him if he is doing nothing wrong...


Something I noticed from watching the video again is that I became a little bit more aggressive in how I brought my hand to the bottom knot. I started soft, but as time went on everytime I went for it he would just try and bite my hand, so I kept trying to do it faster so he couldn't grab hold of me. Then it got to the point where I would reach for his knot, he would go for a bite, and I would shake to back him up as punishment. I don't know if that is the right way to do things...


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## AliceWalker (May 7, 2019)

Alright, just finished watching the vid. This may be a long one. Also, sorry if at any point I sound harsh - I don't mean to bash, just want to make my points clear and concise 🙂
First and foremost, your body language at all times is much too "loud". By this I mean that your body is always doing... something. Moving, adjusting, wiggling arms, raised arms, walking around. To a horse, body language is their first language, like speaking is for us. When your body is always doing something, it's like when someone is talking your ear off and adding way too much unnecessary info to a story and expecting you to listen. Your horse is responding sluggishly to your commands in part because he can't find the cue in all that noise. He's hearing blablablablablablayield your hind quartersblablablablabla... hard to hear you. Quiet your body. When you release, your shoulder should drop, you should step away and you should be basically motionless for a second. To a horse, that's perfect, beautiful silence. A perfect reward.
Speaking of release, you aren't giving many. When you ask to yield his hindquarters, he does it, but then you go straight into something else without giving him a break. This is slowly teaching him that moving his hindquarters never results ina reward or a break, so he might as well never do it. When you ask him to yield, especially when he's still new to it and doesn't understand what you're asking, you should drop your body language and give him a full release as soon as he swivels his hips independently from his front end for one step. The INSTANT he takes that step, drop your shoulders and stop asking him anything. Take a second, then ask again. If he does a really good job, give him.a big release by stepping away and disengaging completely and give him a full fifteen seconds to chill before asking something again.
I'm not sure who taught you to snap his lead like that... but don't do it! It's causing WAY WAY more problems then its solving. First of all, its very confusing to him. When a horse feels a snap like that, his reflex is to pull back, not to comply. When you apply pressure, it should be consistent increase of pressure. Think like a drum roll that slowly gets louder, not a symbol that crashes louder each time you hit it but with silence in between. This doesn't make sense to your horse. When asking a horse to back up, the lead should be slack, and you wiggle it back and forth creating a sideways wave that connects with his halter. The second he backs away from the pressure you release. By snapping the halter, a few things are going wrong: first, you're stepping into his space. This is problematic for a few reasons. You're crowding him and making him uncomfortable, you're going to make him head shy because he's learning to associate the snapping of his halter with your hand near his face and its really hard for him to understand what you're asking when youre basically under his chin. He has no idea whats going on. Secondly, using this lead snapping for his biting issue is entirely wrong. Instead of asking him to get out of your space for being rude, you're stepping INTO his space. So instead of saying "hey! Get out of here you can't act like that around me!" You say "when you try to bite me, I just get closer in biting range which is sort of what you want anyway" you are not preserving and protecting your personal space, you are offering it up to him every time he tries to bite you. When he bites, you should not be putting any tension on his lead. You should be getting big with your arms, slap him if you have to, and drive him out of your space. The lead should always be slack so he has the option to say "sorry!" By backing up out of your space. With a tense lead, you don't give him the option to leave, only prevent him from giving you the answer you want. The only time your hand should be under his halter like that is when you need to carefully walk him through a narrow door or something, but no other time.
With the flag - you're doing a few different things here that are making the process confusing for him. First you start by trying to desensitized him by placing it on his head. He's not bad with this, but he does jerk his head a bit. But instead of keeping the flag there, you move it away before he settles down. This tells him that moving his head is the right answer to get the flag away from him which is the opposite of what you want. You continue to move down his back, which he is quiet and good for, but then instead of rewarding him for good behavior by releasing pressure, you just change the pressure by snapping the flag far away from him. With no release, he never understands that standing still is what you want. The whole time your body language is too loud and inconsisten and he has trouble understanding what you want from him. Next you pressure him with the flag, which is confusing. Its not wrong to use the same tool for desensitizing and pressure. This is something that has to be done with things like lunge whips to ensure the horse understands that the whip can be used for pressure but that it isn't dangerous. But although the flag is telling him to "move away now" your bodynlanguage isn't saying that at all, so he thinks you're still asking him to stand still. You poke his butt, wave the flag, all sorts of stuff. The pressure is very inconsisten and very unclear. Like I mentioned earlier with the drum roll, it should be a steady clear increase of pressure and then stop the instant he gives you what you want. Whats happening now is, you use a lot of inconsistent pressure, eventually he gets the message in the noise and scoots over, but then you keep asking and keep asking without the release. Now he has no idea what to do. Pressure doesn't seem to stop whether he moves or not! So you're essentially teaching him to not move off pressure on the hindquarters because either way he doesn't get release, so he kugbt as well do less work and stand still. When you ask, ask clearly and evenly, usually by swinging the whip or in this case the flag more and more aggressively and more and more close to his hindquarters, even making contact if need be, and then stopping as soon as he moves. Eventually you can ask him to take more steps on his hindquarters at once, but right not he barely understands what you want with just one step, so just ask for one step until he understands that very clearly with light pressure. Once he can do one step with light pressure, you can add more.
To summarize, id do more research on pressure and release. Be sure your pressure is even and understandable and that your release is immediate and clear. Quiet your body language. And vow to never grab under his halter like that, whether for punishment or asking to back up ever again 😉

Edit: just read the last comment on the vid and agree with what was said. A lot of people tend to approach horses like dogs, who like loud movement and play. Horses are the dead opposite. Reaching for the face should be slow, as well as everything else. But I've gone on long enough lol


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I think it's awesome that you posted a video. I’m not a horse trainer or anything, but I was a new horse owner not too long ago and I know what you are going through. I’m going to watch your videos (good job on making them!) and comment. OK, actually I am going to have to watch part and then get back to work. I just want to say, before you read the comments, that I feel like I'm sounding really negative. I don't mean to be. I think you're doing the right thing by asking about these issues and trying to address them. I'm just commenting on what I'm seeing. Again, I'm no pro, so take or leave whatever you want...

1.	Backing up (about 48 seconds in). Different people teach backing up different ways. The way you are doing it – is this how your horse was trained? It’s not clear to me that he entirely understands what you are asking. In this case, getting louder and bigger might not really be that helpful. To me, by putting your hand under his halter like that, you are sort of inviting him to bite you if he’s not happy. And it’s possible that you are holding the halter tightly enough that it’s making it difficult for him to back up. Also, have you tried adding a verbal component (“baaaaaaaack”)? Some horses like that better. When I was teaching my guys to back up, I did it at liberty and I did it by walking, with strong body language, into their space with one finger out, pointed right at that space where their neck meets their chest. If they didn’t back up, they got poked. If you were concerned about biting, this method has the advantage that you can also do it with a dressage whip, and if you have to, then just tap them lightly (but repetitively) on the chest until they back up. Also, is the purpose of you backing up the horse to “teach him respect” or to actually teach him to back up? It kind of looks to me like you’re just fighting with him.

2.	Him biting at you (1:10). Are you trying to reward him by rubbing him on the head? A lot of people do that, but in my personal experience it isn’t actually something that horses find rewarding. It looks like he doesn’t like you to touch his head. 

3.	Again at (1:33). Yeah I don’t think he’s liking that. Of course, a horse needs to be Ok with his head being touched, but this guy doesn't seem to like it, so I would be careful about doing it. This head sensitivity is probably where the bridling issues are coming from, too.

4.	Your hand at (1:48) or so. Why do you keep raising your hand up sharply like that? This is the second or third time I’ve seen it, and it doesn't seem to be tied to any behavior on his part. Are you trying to punish him for something? He seems to think you are.

5. At (2:10) are you wanting him to back up? You give him a lot of lead rope and walk back, in what looks like an inviting way to me, so he is hesitantly trying to take a step toward you. Again, to me, it looks like he's trying to nicely come into your space. But then you try to back him up by jerking on his lead rope. Again, I don't think this is sending a clear signal for him to back up, I think it's just confusing him. Also, when you are trying to back him up, you are thinking back up, but I don't think that's what your body is saying. Your shoulders are back like you're thinking YOU are going to take a step back. So of course he doesn't think HE needs to take a step back.

6. At (2:25) are you trying to punish him for putting his nose on your arm? I'm just asking, because that's what it looks like to me. 

OK, I'm really promising myself I will come back to this later. He seems like a nice horse. He's trying. You are coming on really strong, really harsh to me, and even by minute 2:25 he seems to have gone from willing to sullen and worried.

There's a phrase a lot of people like, that goes something like this: "As little force as possible, as much as necessary." The idea being, you don't go in there with your guns blazing. Go in with soft body language. If you need to, listen to relaxing music for 15 minutes before you work with him. Get yourself feeling warm and fuzzy and relaxed. Then think about what you want from him, and try to get it with the least amount of force necessary. If you can't get what you want with a minimum of force, be sure that you are being CLEAR to him (see my point about your shoulders, above). If you still can't get what you want, then you can ratchet up the force a bit. But you don't want to start out at nuclear, because then where do you go if that doesn't work?

As a concrete example, I was having a problem with my Pony. I thought I was asking for the canter transition as quietly as possible. All I was doing was saying "OK" when I wanted him to canter. But he kept jumping into the canter, and my instructors were like "too much force!" I was like, how can that be too much force, I'm just saying "OK." But I thought about it, and I asked myself, how could I use even LESS force? So what I did was, I started just THINKING "Canter", and it worked really well. I get gorgeous canter transitions now (mostly). Obviously, he's not psychic, but just as obviously my body is somehow translating my thoughts into actions that I'm not aware of, but that he is. Horses are really sensitive. They don't often need a lot of pressure.

OK, one final thing, really. Get some books by Mark Rashid and read them. Internalize them. You and this horse can be a good team, you just need to take it down a notch or two. Think about it from HIS point of view.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

Thank you Alice. Don't apologize for being harsh, you were not. I am very green at this at can't afford to mess it up. I will remember to be more clear with his release of pressure. For example, in circles, my understanding was I start with pointing at his HQ to get them to yield, if he doesn't yield, I increase the pressure a little bit (slight wave of the flag), and level 3 would be tapping him. When he does this, I should immediately remove all pressure and give him a second to think about what he just did? That make sense. It appears I was going back to light pressure, from heavy pressure, instead of just removing all pressure and letting it soak. 
With the pivoting of the HQ and the flag, I need to reward his small little wins right? Am I asking him too do much with no release?
Ie, get him to pivot *release pressure, and pet*, then repeat, instead of pivot, pivot, pivot, pivot, *release pressure*?


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

ACinATX said:


> I think it's awesome that you posted a video. I’m not a horse trainer or anything, but I was a new horse owner not too long ago and I know what you are going through. I’m going to watch your videos (good job on making them!) and comment. OK, actually I am going to have to watch part and then get back to work. I just want to say, before you read the comments, that I feel like I'm sounding really negative. I don't mean to be. I think you're doing the right thing by asking about these issues and trying to address them. I'm just commenting on what I'm seeing. Again, I'm no pro, so take or leave whatever you want...
> 
> 1.	Backing up (about 48 seconds in). Different people teach backing up different ways. The way you are doing it – is this how your horse was trained? It’s not clear to me that he entirely understands what you are asking. In this case, getting louder and bigger might not really be that helpful. To me, by putting your hand under his halter like that, you are sort of inviting him to bite you if he’s not happy. And it’s possible that you are holding the halter tightly enough that it’s making it difficult for him to back up. Also, have you tried adding a verbal component (“baaaaaaaack”)? Some horses like that better. When I was teaching my guys to back up, I did it at liberty and I did it by walking, with strong body language, into their space with one finger out, pointed right at that space where their neck meets their chest. If they didn’t back up, they got poked. If you were concerned about biting, this method has the advantage that you can also do it with a dressage whip, and if you have to, then just tap them lightly (but repetitively) on the chest until they back up. Also, is the purpose of you backing up the horse to “teach him respect” or to actually teach him to back up? It kind of looks to me like you’re just fighting with him.
> 
> ...



Thank you again for your help. I will try be really light... Are there any easy exercises I can do for the both of us that I can show him that my body language is softer? Or basically just do what I was doing in the video, but reward more often, be lighter and less aggressive. I felt like I had to be more uptight because I was afraid of being bitten, but hopefully if I soften by body language, and keep my distance a little more, I will not get bit. I will keep more slack out on the lead rope and be out in front of him when I want to back him up and lightly increase pressure that way. Thank you !


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## AliceWalker (May 7, 2019)

Thanks for saying so! Glad you're open to learning 🙂 also, as someone said, it is really good of you to post a video- really helps better analyze the problem and many are too shy to do so, but you're doing great it trying to learn.
So the problem is that the tapping isn't necessarily harsher than the swinging, its just different. You swing pretty roughly, then tap pretty lightly, so its almost like you're going backwards to lighter pressure. Using the drum roll analogy, the pressure should be the same "tone" from start to finish. If you started by swinging the flag in circles, you should continue to swing in circles, just larger, faster and closer until he responds. If you're tapping, start with tapping lightly, then tap harder and harder in quick succession until there's a response. By this I dont mean tap wait tap wait TAP wait, I mean, quick little pokes the same way you might giggle your foot while idle at your desk, quick and continuous, with the pressure getting heavier like a drum roll steadily growing in tone. I prefer the swinging motion, since I dont want to have to make contact with my horse to get a response. I want to be able to ask from a distance if I want, and a swinging motion is preferable. 
Remember that the smaller you start, the "softer" and more responsive your horse will eventually be. Its known as sequencing and it means that you'll be able to teach your horse to listen to whispers instead of always having to yell. If you start by asking very softly (even if you know they won't respond) and steadily increase, eventually your horse will start to think: "if I listen to him when he whispers, I dont need to be yelled at in the future". And he'll start listening for whispers. It will take quite a bit of repetition but will come with good consistency. Again, quiet body language is necessary for this so he can hear you whisper in your body. 
Also, make sure your body is asking as much as your tool. In the vid, the tool is doing a lot of talking but your body isn't saying anything and that's confusing to your horse. A lot of the time you're stationary. When yielding the hindquarters, your body should be moving towards his read both to increase pressure on his hind end but also to "open up" the visual space for his hindquarters to move into. Like i think you mentioned, your body should be leaning in and focusing in on the hindquarters. You can even sequence your cues so you start with just the lean in focus, then add the whip. If you're consistent and clear with your releases, he will eventually learn to move just off your body movement.
You're right about starting small. Right now he's having trouble even understanding one pivot, since it takes a lot of pressure to just get that. You should be asking for one pivot, then full release until he really clearly understands it and you can ask very lightly and he responds right away. The release doesn't have to be super long, just one to five seconds of very neutral, quiet body language (no movement, lowered arms and shoulders, soft gaze). The amount of time you give depends both on how well he did (longer release for more drastic improvements) and how much he needs (longer release for concepts he's still struggling with). For now, id release for at least 3 seconds to really let him digest, and break up training sessions with 1 minute breaks every few minutes. Once he get one pivot softly, you can start asking for more pivots. Maybe just add one or two at first, and get that going where he'll do it off light pressure. Then add more as he improves. 
Be careful with petting- a lot of horses don't find it rewarding. Your horse especially seems to not really enjoy it, and it can be hard for inexperienced horse people to reward with petting since it requires a very quiet body. If petting at all, it should be on the neck and back since petting the head is a big intrusion on his personal space, goes for a very sensitive part of their body and requires raising your hands at him. Most horses will only ever learn to tolerate head petting rather than enjoy it, since horses are prey animals and instinctually very protective of their heads. The best reward you can give for your horse is to release pressure by taking all energy out of your flag and your body for a few seconds.

Edit: Not to jump onto a question asked by someone else, but there are not special exercises you need to do, just any work (such as asking to back up, yield hindquarters) that involves lots and lots of pressure release. As a side note, try and stick to one "activity" for longer. In the vid you switch quickly and often between leading, backing up, desensitizing and pressure release. You should keep to one activity for longer and let your horse take a nice long break between each thing. Horses thrive on consistency and clarity and it can be hard for your horse to focus when the goal keeps changing. Every time you change what you work on, your horse has to re-calibrate, change their processing and refocus. It can be confusing for your horse if what you're asking for changes so often they can't get comfortable with any one thing before you're not doing it anymore.

But don't get confused - softness is keyword training all these things, but you should still get REALLY hard with your horse when he tries to bite you. Its dangerous behavior and needs to stop right away. Think of it like a kid running into the street. You wouldn't just say, hey don't do that again in a nice kind tone. You'd get really mad at them so they know they should never ever do it. I love this concept: be a reflexion of your horse. When your horse is soft, you are soft. When your horse isn't soft, you get harder. And if your horse attacks you, you attack back. Even with the snapping of the rope you did in the vid you aren't clear because you don't come at him fast enough or drive him out of your space. Your body language should be soft and supple UNTIL he bites, then feel free to snap at him. Drive him back, raise your arms, yell, smack him. But just for a second or two. When he moves out of your space, you settle back down as well. As someone said, horses in the wild will snap at each other when they invade their space, but unlike people, they don't take it personally or hold grudges and a second later everything is back to normal. So you do the same.
Additionally, the softer you are, the more he'll understand your direction. If your bodynid always loud, your snap at him for biting may be especially loud but it won't be all that noticeable compared to all the background noise you give him. But if your body is always quiet and forgiving, your snap will stand out really clearly and be really jarring.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

jscheiner.09 said:


> Today, I was working on backing up with him. I would start at the knot, and not put much pressure. If I was not moving, I would shake it a little more, and if he really didn't move or back up I would aggressively shake. The problem with this, is the more I would grab for it, the more he would try and bite me. At the 5 minute mark, you can see me walking him around and he reaches out to bite me when I am facing the other way. My flag work is very new, so please give me any critiques...
> 
> The more time I spend with him, the more and more I feel like he is just resenting me.
> 
> https://youtu.be/Tv2LtQ85PsQ



I clicked through your video, and I think you are contributing to the problem of his biting. Imagine someone you hardly know, walking up to you, grabbing your arm, and shaking it crazily with no warning - would your reaction be to back away, or punch them?

Your current method is going from 0 to 100 - asking for nothing, and then asking for everything.

I suggest that you do not grab at the knot of his halter to ask him to back this way - if you insist that he backs from shaking the lead rope, then put 4-6 ft of the lead rope between him and your hand. You start small, with just shaking your finger holding the rope. If he doesn't react at all, then increase the shaking through to your wrist, then to your elbow, and then to your shoulder - this increase the intensity until you get a reaction. Over time, he will need less and less of a cue to backing up while shaking the lead rope, and generally, horses will catch on super fast to this.

In the beginning of teaching this, as soon as he even just shifts his weight backwards, stop the shaking, and reward him (say good boy, or offer him a pat on the neck). Over time, all you will have to do is shake your finger at him, and he will back up.

If you want to teach him how to back from the close to his halter, I would just use pressure and release. Have your hand about 1 ft from the knot his halter, stand between his head and his shoulder facing him, and put pressure backwards on his nose. If a soft pull doesn't cause him to go backward, either increase the pressure, or add a gentle tug. If the gentle tug doesn't work, increase the intensity as before, as in first apply gentle pressure, add a gentle tug, and then a firm tug - and release as soon as you get the desire result.

Also, by being between his head and shoulder, if he turns to bite your arm, bop him in the nose with your elbow. He will not relate this to being head shy, he will relate this to "ow, it hurts if I bite human". As soon as you bop him with your elbow, continue on with what you are doing.

The release is always the most important part of working with horses, as it is the reward. Every horse is rewarded by a release, so you don't need to use treats anyways. Find where your guy likes to be scratched as a reward (my mare likes right under her neck) and use that instead.


Please let me know if you have any more questions on groundwork - it is one of my favorite parts of working with horses.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

Donkey - Thank you.
I will stay away from grabbing the knot underneath, especially because of his biting. A common theme people are saying is reward the slight movements at first, don't go for the big ones. Message received! I understand the physical release, but now I really have to understand the mental/body language release as well.

Alice- that was me that asked about specific exercises. As I am very new to this, I am unaware of how long to spend on each little movement I am trying to work on. 
I will spend more time on a specific thing before jumping to another! I was not sure if I do one, another then back to another, or more time just on one.

Thank you for clarifying that. Thank you for being specific about a way of dealing with his biting, and how much pressure to use. His biting has gotten more consistent since in the past 4-5 days. I had a stretch of 3-4 days where he was really gentle, to think about it, I was too and wasn't throwing him terrible body language, I was much softer. He had a bad day at the end of that stretch and since then I think I have been more actively firm with him and since then he has been biting more...
It all comes full circle and makes sense!


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

jscheiner.09 said:


> Thank you again for your help. I will try be really light... Are there any easy exercises I can do for the both of us that I can show him that my body language is softer?


I think the steps that @ClearDonkey spelled out for backing up were really good.

Back to another question you asked, I don't see why you wouldn't bridle him on days when you weren't riding him, if that's something he needs to work on. My Pony went through a period of fighting being bridled, and I'd work on it every time I saw him. I will say that I gave him treats as a reward, but what everyone else is saying about release of pressure (timed correctly) is also true.

I'm really impressed that you are working on internalizing all of this feedback. I have to say, in a way you are lucky, because usually when you ask a question here on HF you will get a broad range of responses, but everyone is basically telling you the same thing, but in different ways. 

I'm also impressed that you realized you had tensed up and gotten reactive after he bit you. Being bitten is not fun, I know, and it is hard to forget that it happened and try to start with a blank slate the next time. I think if you keep your hands away from his head, where possible, it will help. Yes, he should be able to handle being touched on his head, but you need to pick your battles, and aside from bridling him there really isn't any reason to be touching his head right now. I'd work on him being OK with being touched on the head well in the future, after you guys have a better relationship.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

AC- Thank you for the compliment. I am going to head back to the barn tonight and hopefully end the day on a good note. I started getting tunnel vision while working with him because I got to the point where anytime I would grab the knot under his neck to back him up, he would go to bite me. I bet if I was using light pressure and giving more rewards, he would not see that as a complete invasion of space.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

For the record, my Rusty HATES being led by the halter. Like it offends him or something. Snap a lead on him and he's fine, lol. So yeah, I'd avoid grabbing the halter.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

jscheiner.09 said:


> Acadianartist -
> I am trying to get him to not bite, but he really isn't budging with that (it has only been a short time working with him on it). I would prefer not to wack him in the jowl or cheek, I am afraid he will get head shy. I have been trying to block him and that works, but sometimes he just connects with me gets a good nibble and it definitely hurts a little.


Oh no, do NOT whack him or hit him. Just keep that sharp nail sticking out between your knuckles and put it between his mouth and any part of you he wants to bite. The idea is that he comes into the nail, you don't hit him with it!

You might also try reacting loudly by vocalizing. My Rusty is easy to impress with a strong NO! and a bit of an overreaction on my part. I think he wonders if I'm crazy sometimes, but it works with him. It can take time though... so be patient. And make sure no one is hand-feeding him treats when you're not there.


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## AliceWalker (May 7, 2019)

I personally would avoid the pulling beneath the chin move ever, even with other better techniques. I think it just makes him want to pull his head away and it makes him uncomfortable. Its best to ask for anything, whether it be backing up or correcting biting from a distance. Pulling on a horses face can make them feel trapped and just confuses them by rushing into their space when they're trying to be out of it (since you're asking him to back up or move him out of your space for biting) and pulling theirnhead roughly which is jarring, confusing and adds a lot of tension.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

I went back for a little night session to end the day on something good. I was much calmer, collected, even when he was being a brat I didn’t lose my cool. I was working on him backing up - I was standing about 2 feet away from him at around his shoulder . I would pull the lead rope towards his rear, if he didn’t move after a few seconds I would jiggle the lead rope towards his hind a little bit (almost no pressure). For reference I had about a foot and a half of slack. With that he was responding to and moving back. Even when he shifted his weight i released. I did have trouble with that however as he did want to bite me half the time. I didn’t really feel like I was in “his space”. I wasn’t under his neck at all. If a few feet away is still in his space, then that is good to know and maybe I should just work on backing him up from the front. I did bop him a few times but mainly I just blocked him when he would try and bite me... that is something that even with my better manners, he still did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AliceWalker (May 7, 2019)

Still feel like you're not getting hard enough on him for biting. The thing is, not all horses need aggression to stop biting, as it can stem from fear or curiosity in which this method wouldn't work. But seeing the videos, it really looks like he just doesn't respect your space at all. If after punishing him he continues to test you, that's him telling you that you haven't been clear or firm enough on the subject. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a good video of someone replicating what I'm talking about, but I might try and show you with my mare in a vid if I can on Thursday. 
You really want to get after him, like make him take a few quick steps back because he gets scared of being in your space. You can even lunge him in a few quick circles if you feel confident in doing so.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

This morning I wanted to work on backing up with him.

I was much better personally with the amount of pressure I gave, the regulation of pressure, and not getting in his space. 
He started off the morning being in my space and that just continued for the 15-20 minutes I was working with him. He tried to bite me very frequently. Frequently I blocked him and when he really got into my space I elbowed him. I even tried to go a little crazy on him when he tried to bite me once or twice (not hurting him just trying to make him think I was psycho). He backed up, but then continued try and bite me 30 seconds later. I landed a couple pretty good bops to him too, I thought he would just get the message. He did not, he just went back to trying to nibble or bite me 15 seconds later. Thinking about it now, I should have gone to working on yielding his HQ, but 

I wanted to try and ride him so I put him on Xties. He was moving all over the place, pawing, and still trying to bite me. He just seemed wound up. I was half way through tacking him up, and just stopped. 
I did not want to ride him that day if he was trying to bite me and acting that way. 
At that point I was wondering to myself why I was actually there? I was not enjoying it at all. 
I spoke to a trainer at the barn who worked with him about 6 months ago. We agreed it may be best to put him in a program for a month with a professional. I will reassess his behavior after the month. I just don't have thousands to spend on training for him so he can be safe to handle. In the end, it needs to be enjoyable for me, and he needs to be safe for my parents to handle. As of right now, neither of those things are true.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Yeah, that's tough. I forgot you mentioned that he would be going to your parents' place. It's possible that even if you got to where he no longer tried this behavior with you, he still might try it with your parents. I think sending him to the trainer is a good idea, but ideally this trainer would work with both of you, to help you learn to work with him. If nothing else, though, you could let the trainer know about your parents and get his or her opinion about whether this horse would ever be suitable to have older, non-horse people looking after him.


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

I think you should practice really watching your horse. From your video, what I see is a horse and its handler with neither of them being the least bit in tune with the other. You probably haven't practiced or thought about it much and the horse knows that you aren't in tune with him. He knows that you don't know or see what he's thinking, feeling or doing so he forgets about you and instead spends his energy on keeping an eye on the surroundings to keep himself safe. Horses feel safe and "happy" when they're "seen" and understood. Because a handler or herdmate who can tell what they're thinking and feeling, and who takes the time to put effort into that, will be able to keep them safe from harm. It might seem strange and it might not make a lot of sense yet, but give it a try. Horses don't act up or bite to be mean, or be "the boss", or anything like that (generalizing here). Most horses actually like having a "leader" who they feel safe with. If I had a horse acting like this I would take a step back and first work on really understanding him and his body language. Because there must be a reason for it, and that reason could well be that he's upset about the lack of communication and trying to get you to wake up and be aware of your surroundings. I expect he isn't biting without warning either, but you probably don't see his warnings? If you caught the warning and corrected then, that would be a start - it would correct his very "thought" of biting while also showing that you really are aware of his every move. In his eyes, someone who isn't aware and in tune with him is a danger to themselves and to him. Of course, biting is indeed a dangerous thing that is never allowed, but try not "making" him bite first and see where it goes.
This is some rather general advice; I hope it helps you look at this situation a bit differently.
Keep trying things - as you go along you'll figure out the language and his trust in you will grow. It's great that you're open to advice from here! One more thing - I'd really recommend Warwick Schiller's channel on Youtube. I give this advice a lot ha. I think you'd find his theories and "methods" very helpful.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I watched the video I see a horse who has zero respect for his handler. Every time you reached up to pet his head. He shoved your hand away bitting at you.

He needs a no none sense approach. He shoves your hand bitting at it he needs a good hard whack on the nose. I own a 5 year old gelding who was very rough handled prior to me owning him. 

He tries to bite he gets a good hard whack in the nose. Yeah he goes flying backwards,head flys up. But I only need to ever do this maybe 2 times most 3. I have no tolerance for bitting. 

They want to bite I have no issues giving them a good hard whack. No beating around the bush I mean business, an they darn well better not bite. He's not head shy because of being whacked in nose. He knows darn good an well what he's doing.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

JoBlue - I agree with you. I definitely am not in tune with him. To think about it, no one I have really seen handle him are 'in tune' with him. I am having trouble connecting with him because I am trying to correct him for the 4+ things he does poorly (everywhere on xties, biting, in your space, pawing at the ground). Last night and this morning I was way better with not being in his space, but it didn't stop him from coming into mine. I would walk him, he would walk past me, if we were standing there together, or I was trying to get him to back him. He would move his head over to try and bite me. I bopped him once or twice with some force and he forgot it happened 30 seconds later.

I think the trainers plan is to work with him alone for a week or two then bring me in. I feel like I would be able to get a little more accomplished with him if he wasn't focused on biting me every 5seconds and trying to get in my space. That feels like a constant, so it just brings my baseline pressure up because he kind of usually is like that...

When the trainer and I worked him in the round pen last week, he started out not being in tune and being elsewhere, by the end of the session, he was more Beta and less Alpha and was paying attention to us. 

I wonder if I should focus on more respect based exercises for the time being?


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

jscheiner.09 said:


> I am having trouble connecting with him because I am trying to correct him for the 4+ things he does poorly (everywhere on xties, biting, in your space, pawing at the ground)


I just wanted to put it out there that pawing is not, per se, a habit that HAS to be corrected. I started a thread on this a long time ago, and it seemed that most people considered pawing to be a bad habit because it just personally annoyed them. Plus the rare horse that hurt itself from pawing. Pawing, in and of itself, IMO, is not really a big deal. Choose your battles. Focus on the clearly bad (biting) and ignore the rest. You can come back and try to "fix" pawing later, but really, it's not really an objectively bad behavior.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

He is still very young, and in my opinion, he's trying to play with you like you are another colt! Obviously not what he should be doing, but he's not being aggressive as much as he is playing with you. That is how young horses play with each other and that is how he apparently sees you.


I wish I could tell you how to correct it but I haven't had good luck myself. The one and only foal I raised from a baby still does stuff like this when you turn your back (he knows he will be corrected when you see him do it, so he likes to do it when you are not looking).


I think you need more lead rope between you and your horse when you back him. You should have maybe 3-4 feet of rope so you are not reaching for the halter. You should wiggle the rope like it's a snake slithering on the ground.....in other words left to right not up and down. He should move from the weight of the rope being annoying (it might take about 30 seconds to get your first step back while he's figuring out what you want) so you shouldn't physically have to back him. 


I'm sure there are some awesome videos of this on You-tube but I don't have time to find the right one at the moment. But I think he is basically bored and playing with you like he would another horse. I don't think he is mean or anything. You just need to tweak your techniques. If he rides great, I do think I would focus on riding rather than boring him to death in the round pen. But that's just my opinion. Best of luck. :smile:


PS. I like Warwick Schiller as a trainer and he has lots of great videos on You-tube!


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

Personally I'd do some stuff in the pasture with him. No halter, just interactions with him (taking the option of him "misbehaving" by pawing, etc, completely out of the picture). You can look up some ideas of how to go about that. But I think you're definitely on the right path, and it's good that you have a trainer involved.
When a horse gets in my space and I want them out, I "think big" first - puff out your chest and glare with a purpose, then if it's not enough I raise my arms (still getting bigger and "pushing" my presence into his) and if it's still not enough I'll wave my arms and really come at him while telling to move vocally/clucking aggressively, in a way that he knows that if he doesn't move I'm going to be coming at him physically. But especially with a horse who isn't good at responding, I relax the stance 100% back to normal as soon as they respond. Sometimes that means they're still closer to me than I want but as long as they've responded by moving off some, I reward it. Think about it - horses in a herd situation don't start telling their mates to move by kicking them in the side. First it's a pointed glare, then the ears go back, then the teeth bare, and then if it's a really uneducated (in herd communication) horse the physical stuff starts. But they always start small, and a well "trained/educated" horse moves away just from the glare. Some horses get flighty and worried and scared of their handler if they act too "instantly" - that would be like a herdmate going from relaxed state of mind to kicking instantly. The attacked one has no idea why it's happened or how to keep it from happening again so they get understandably worried. On the other hand if one horse is bitten by another horse in a disrespectful way that's just to provoke them, they get an instant and angry response to put them in their place. If a horse was biting at me, then I wouldn't start small but would instantly and scarily move them off me *immediately*. In this case, the horse knows what he did to get the angry response, so it's not going to lead to him being headshy or something like that. It's all about timing and cause-effect. I hope that makes some sense; writing in a hurry.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Here is a Warwick Schiller video on the subject:








I wish I would have at least tried this with my young gelding rather than constantly "correcting" him because I think all the correcting sort of ruined our relationship. Maybe it wouldn't have worked out anyway, but I know the "if he keeps doing it you didn't correct him hard enough" method didn't really fix anything other than making him sneaky about it.


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

^^good video. I don't know if it's a similar enough situation to the OP's though.

also this video you could watch:





here is one about rewarding the slightest tries: 




and I like the principle he covers in this one a lot - it's helped me a lot connecting with anxious and shut down horses:


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

You don't get the bitting stopped it will escalate an he'll nail you good. His ears are back in a irritated way. A matter of time he'll take a hunk of hide out of you.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

ACinATX said:


> I just wanted to put it out there that pawing is not, per se, a habit that HAS to be corrected. I started a thread on this a long time ago, and it seemed that most people considered pawing to be a bad habit because it just personally annoyed them. Plus the rare horse that hurt itself from pawing. Pawing, in and of itself, IMO, is not really a big deal. Choose your battles. Focus on the clearly bad (biting) and ignore the rest. You can come back and try to "fix" pawing later, but really, it's not really an objectively bad behavior.


Good to know. Definitely does not get in my way, it is just more annoying and seems like he is impatient or begging.
JS


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

trailhorserider said:


> He is still very young, and in my opinion, he's trying to play with you like you are another colt! Obviously not what he should be doing, but he's not being aggressive as much as he is playing with you. That is how young horses play with each other and that is how he apparently sees you.
> 
> 
> I wish I could tell you how to correct it but I haven't had good luck myself. The one and only foal I raised from a baby still does stuff like this when you turn your back (he knows he will be corrected when you see him do it, so he likes to do it when you are not looking).
> ...


It is funny you say that because he has another young TB horse friend at the farm that we occasionally let have playtime in the indoor and its a lot of them just nibbling/biting each other.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi & welcome to the fray!



jscheiner.09 said:


> He struggles with:
> - Nibbling/biting when hand gets close to his face (not all the time, about half the time). I do not hand feed him, prior to me owning him, people would give him treats, I cut that off.


Firstly, just have to comment that I'm pretty sure HE isn't the one that struggles with this behaviour. ;-)

Don't forget, you've bought a youngster - and even if he weren't many people don't teach, or aren't consistent with 'ground manners', so don't get angry or call him a 'brat' - he just doesn't know better & it's up to you to teach him. Consistency & ensuring you never inadvertently reward the Wrong behaviour is a big thing.

Yeah, while I think food treats are a handy 'tool' for training, if you're novice, don't have a firm grasp of training principles & timing skill, then best to avoid that all together for now. IMHO you do want to find some form of positive reinforcement/reward that you can manage though. While it's very common for people to train horses solely using negative reinforcement(removal of something unpleasant, such as pressure - slack in the rein, quit 'work' etc) and punishment, I don't agree with that style of training personally. Nothing against using neg. reinforcement(-R) but there's got to be a balance. Hopefully he has some good itchy spots he loves to be scratched on.

Remember, horses learn by instant association, to do what works & quit doing what doesn't work. So, especially as he's already had experience with this working for him, you need to be utterly consistent to NEVER allow it to work again. You can use punishment, to make it unpleasant for him to try it, so long as you are quick enough to punish him *at the time of* the behaviour. But more to the point, you can also teach him alternate behaviours DO work - such as keeping his nose down & bent away from you, and stopping 1' away from you, never encroaching on your space unless you specifically request. If he's doing those things, he can't be mugging & mouthing.



> - attention is everywhere else but on me. He becomes distracted easily and does not really pay attention to me.


You have taken on a young, little educated, little experienced boy, and you're also little experienced yourself. So part of it will be that you're both 'green' - he just hasn't had the experience to learn that paying attention to you is Good for him. You haven't yet taught him it's worth his while. And part of it may also be confidence - or lack of. Horses are prey/herd animals who need a leader they can trust & rely on to look out for them. If you can't be that - not knocking if you can't, it is something that comes with consideration & respect for the horse - and you first have to understand & be able to communicate well with the horse before you can start earning trust & respect as a worthy leader. If you can't be that leader, depending on the situation & personality of the horse, they will either take charge themselves, or be nervous & distracted - cos he feels the need to fend for himself.



> - When walking he will occasionally try to walk in front of me, walk past me etc. I have been working with him on this and he is getting better slowly, It is like 3 steps forward, then he will regress one step back.


Just patience and consistency. You're teaching a 'kid' who might never have learned those lessons before. Make sure it never works for him, and make sure the 'correct' behaviour - walking beside you - is rewarded - works for him.



> When I try to back him up I will grab under the halter knot and push him back and he will try to bite my hand.


The nibbling, esp when he does it at other times, is probably just lack of being taught he shouldn't do that with people. Remember, they communicate with bodylanguage, he's just asking you to quit because it's annoying. So don't blame him, just teach him that's not the right answer & won't work. 



> The biggest 'Ugh' thing that was been happening is bridling him. He has always been tough to bridle. He will throw his head up and walk backwards and just try and move. In the past I have been able to get it in half the time


Wouldn't you, if someone was trying to strap an uncomfortable bit of metal into your mouth? And if he's getting worse about it, then it's the way you're going about it. Understand his aversion, so you can work out how to change that *motivation*, help it become more acceptable, less unpleasant.



> Lots of things with moving his feet, changing directions, transitions etc. When we worked him hard on Sunday for 30 minutes in the round pen, he was easier to bridle


Yep, 'move their feet' seems to be the catch cry of the day it seems. And I think to some extent it depends what you want of a horse. I might well 'move their feet' as a punishment, but I think it's become a sort of 'be all' answer to 'what you do' & I don't like that idea that 'work' is used as punishment generally, when for one, I want my horses to enjoy the 'work' I ask of them and my company. 

It works, for the most part, to punish a horse in whatever way, to get them to submit to something. But I don't want a horse to do what I ask just because they have learned I'll make their life difficult if they don't. 

'Working hard' in a roundpen for 30 mins sounds like wearing the horse down, making him exhausted, so he's more likely to just say 'whatever'. Another prob with this approach is, if you keep doing this, the horse will just get fitter, so it will take longer to wear him out.

The other thing with 'moving their feet' or 'working hard' is timing of the punishment. Horses need *instant* associations to 'join the dots'. Punishing a horse 2 _seconds_ after the behaviour has ended is too late, let alone half an hour's hard work. If you mean for these things to be direct punishment for the Wrong behaviour, it must be instant, and not continue. Eg. if he forges ahead of you on lead, I may suddenly & strongly get him to back up, but no point in(& confusion comes out of) continuing to back him up, or run him in circles, whatever. Remember, direct, instant associations.



> I have been studying up a lot on Clint Anderson, Monty Roberts, and Buck Brannaman techniques. I have started implementing some of their ground techniques and drills and it has helped. I want to build him from the ground up if I need to. Its possible that the people that walk him in from his turnout are not reprimanding him or teaching him to get out of their space, and if they are, they might be doing it wrong.


May I suggest looking into Warwick Schiller(his more recent stuff - he's changed, from the standard approach such as from those you mention). There are lots of similarities, but give some serious thought to the differences in his approach compared to others.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I wrote previous when it was a new thread but forgot to send. Now I'm reading replies...


Celeste said:


> accompanied by the proper level of profanity and yelling.


:lol: :lol: Is this a subjective thing I wonder?? :dance-smiley05:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jscheiner.09 said:


> The only thing is, I need this horse to be well behaved by then as my parents will be helping with the care half the time and they are in their 70's.


Are your parents horse people, knowledgeable with training & handling? If not, regardless how good you get him with you, he's still.... a horse. He will test & push them if he can too, so if they don't know how to handle him(or any horse) they could well be in danger of causing/allowing Wrong behaviour.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AliceWalker said:


> A lot of people are agreeing with you that stopping all treats is a good idea- I dont think its necessarily a bad idea per se, but I dont think its entirely necessary either. A mouthy horse can learn to not be mouthy even with food. In fact, I think its really important for a mouthy horse to learn manners whether food is present or not. If you simply take way food altogether, they won't be mouthy but they also won't learn how to be polite around food


Yes! Food is just (usually) a strong primary reinforcer/reward. And as such, I would(& have, many, many times) personally use it to teach the 'rude' horse myself. It's not food treats, or hand feeding that causes 'nippyness', or 'mugging', but what behaviours you allow and reinforce when using whatever reward(or punishment). But I was one of those who agreed with OP stopping, for now at least, because, as a powerful reinforcer, it's also a great 'tool' for someone to easily & strongly reinforce the Wrong behaviours, if they're not fully 'present'.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

Loosie, I appreciate the long responses. He and I are definitely green. Father had horses years ago and is okay, mother is a little more flighty.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Well, I typed out a very long reply, and it's all gone now thanks to the session timing out. So I'm going to make this short.


You seem afraid of the horse, and the horse seems to be trying to herd you. Get him to lead at your shoulder so you can keep a better eye on him, as he can and does clearly from the video get up to mischief when you are not looking. When he nips, swing the lead rope in a vertical helicopter motion towards his face. He will back up, and you should follow him for a couple paces. It needs to be a big and loud reaction so he knows beyond a doubt that it is not ok. Lastly, carry yourself with more confidence. You seem to sort of timidly tiptoe around him, which I think is encouraging his behavior of trying to be your leader. Don't be afraid to get in his space. Don't be afraid to snap that flag, and make it loud; use it more effectively. You don't want him to fear the flag touching him, so the gentle desensitizing you do is good, but you do want him to respect the flag. And don't allow him to mouth towards your hand when you get your hand under his chin. 



This sort of behavior that this horse exhibits has the possibility of leading to charging you as the handler, as it did with my mare. That was scary, and I had to learn from a trainer how to react and carry myself in a manner that exudes confidence. Just don't be afraid to get in his space - be confident. He needs to move away from you and respect your space, not you worrying about respecting his. I just learned the hard way many years ago that being too nice and too careful and too sweet leads to the horse thinking of you as its follower, on a lower rung of the herd pole. And no nice thing comes out of that.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jscheiner.09 said:


> (grabbing underneath the halter knot and shaking it to get him to move backwards.) I did start with light pressure, then went to a shake


This I thought to comment on(maybe I did) but after seeing your vid... You're being abrupt & unclear to me. The horse doesn't know what you're asking. You're not consistently asking him first with gentle pressure(maybe you are sometimes), you're just abruptly getting in his face. You're not consistently quitting the pressure when you get a desired behaviour - you are usually still hustling/hassling him back after he's (reactively) taken the first step, and, as he continues to back & you continue to push, he's bracing & sort of reacting away rather than yielding, responding. And then you quit - often when he's bracing & head up in the air.

You might want to teach him that shaking the rope means back up - I don't personally think there's a prob with teaching that as a cue. But it's not a clear way to teach them to do it in the first place - if I just started flapping a rope in front of you would you understand what I wanted? Instead, I'd use gentle, direct pressure on the lead(don't 'grab' but take & hold the pressure on the lead behind his chin) and chest. Reinforce the *slightest* 'try' to start with, even if it's only shifting his weight back. Get that a few times before asking him to take a whole step back... etc. Only once he's got the idea clearly, would I start using stronger 'pressure' such as lightly bumping the rope backwards, to 'back up' any resistance, or start teaching him to do it a bit snappier or such. Only once he understood all that, would I start to use rope wiggling as a cue, rather than(or as well as, to begin with) the steady pressure he already understands.

With regards to the biting, in the vid, you are allowing him to reach out & nibble at you, sometimes for many seconds, before you start to attempt to tell him off. Remember INSTANT associations. When he *starts* to reach out to you with his nose is when you need to 'tell' him. Don't wait for him to connect. 

And do TELL him! In no uncertain terms! That is one time I think it's absolutely fine to cause him to believe his life will be BAD if he tries that on. Don't worry about 'headshy', worry about your flesh & getting across to him ASAP that it's something he is afraid to try on any more. While I use minimal punishment as a rule, agree with others that on the note of biting & other potentially dangerous behaviour, I'd 'come down on him' immediately for that - you're not effectively punishing him for it at all, and he's probably just taking this as a bit of a challenge, a game, tit for tat. IOW it seems you're effectively *encouraging* the dangerous behaviour! One thing to keep in mind is, if you find you're punishing the same behaviour more than a few times, then your punishment is just not effective, and you're actually making him more 'resilient' to it, to be harder to 'unteach' in future.

Again, not knocking you for not knowing better - we were all novice once. But I meant to say in my first post, and watching your vid emphasises that while learning horsemanship by watching vids to learn is good, there is no substitute for hands on lessons, and I really feel you're taking yourself into dangerous territory ATM without. I recommend finding a good trainer to first teach him, then teach you, hands on, how to deal with him.

At about 8 mins, you get a flag on a stick. Seems like you're wanting to desensitise your horse to it, but then sometimes you're using the same sort of movements, same sort of bodylanguage but you seem to want him to move away from it. But you flap it at him, he doesn't move(as he's been previously desensitised/taught to ignore that), and then you stop, or do a little more, then stop. So are you trying to further desensitise him with this, or ARE you wanting him to move? 

Assuming the latter, you need to first TEACH him the difference. Make it obvious. Not only change your bodylanguage obviously, but I'd first ensure he was yielding well to direct pressure on the lead, in different directions, before even starting with a flag & on a long lead, so that when I did start, I could put some gentle pressure in the right direction on the lead, at the same time as using the flag cue, so he's likely to move as you wish, and associate the flag cue with the behaviour you want. And again, QUIT IT when you get the smallest 'try' or Right Answer - even just a half step to begin with.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Hi Jordan,


Thank you for posting that really great video. It helps so much to illustrate what you are dealing, and where responsibility lies.


Let me say first the postive: That is on NICE HORSE! He is well built, and is not mean at all. He is actually trying quite hard to do what you ask, but is confused, and distracted. But, in time, he is going to become the best horse you've ever had. Mark my words! Do not think that you've over paid, he's a very nice and well builts fellow .




Ok, not the blunt negative. (everybody here knows I am blunt, but not mean)
Groundwork done poorly is WORSE than no groundwork at all, and you are doing it poorly. Sorry, but that's the blunt truth.


I don't blame you, because in this modern world, via forums, videos, and well-meaning 'experienced' friends (often those who've just watched more videos than you have), you get an overload of advice. And you got some absolutely outstanding advice here. I agree word for word with @AliceWalker, and mostly with @JoBlueQuarter. And @loosie, and etc . . .


But, you simply can't run until you can walk. YOu don't even know how to hold the rope properly. Your stance is all over the place, as far as the horse is concerned. Your ability to 'read' the horse is just not there. Put that all together and it's a mess. 

And that's because you are trying to do too many things at once. The videos make it looks easy, don't they?


First of all, since this horse's main problem is one of being too close to you, and then finding that his busy, baby mouth just finds your rope, your hand, your shoulder, etc. . . well . . . then start by teaching him how to move AWAY from you, and stay away from, even if you walk forward.


To start with go straight. Not in a round pen, just down the country road. Start with making him back away from.
You face him, NOT close. NO close enough for you to touch him, or him to touch you. You will never touch his halter.


You start with a side to side wiggle of the lead rope. It will annoy him. He may throw his head up, or pin his ears, or snap at it, or try to bite it. you accelerate the wiggle rapidly ignoring all of his confusing reactions . .UNTIL . . . he takes one step backward.


then stop ALL movement. Here's where you think you should go up and pet on his face. NO!!! do not do that. Every time you pet him immediately after a 'learning moment' you take his mind away from that learning change. He immediately moves his mind from "that rope made me want to back up, and then I got relief. H m m . . . " TO: "what's he want with my face now? is it play time?" Seriously. your ceasing of all pressure is reward enough. do not interrupt your own success and ruin it.
You basically drop you hand a bit, and just let out a breath so YOUR energy also drops.


I bet you anything he will immediately try to step back into your space, so you watch for that, and the instant you see him lift a foot to step forward, you start a small wiggle. remember, don't go balastic unless you have to. But, don't wait, either. You stay facing him, and if he comes toward you uninvited, you use the rope wiggle to get him to put that foot back, then drop your hand, lower your energy and let him 'soak' on that. Do not pet or approach him in any way.


What do I mean if he comes in 'uninvited'? if YOU back up, even lean backward, you just invited him toward you, so you can't get grumpy at him for coming closer.


Then, ask him to step back one more step. Use raise hand a bit, soft wiggle, up to firm wiggle if you see that he is not paying a bit of attention. get him to back up, lower hand, let him soak, do not step back or toward him.


Do this a bit until he is 6 feet away from you.
That is enough for one day. leave the ground work.


Work on getting your horse to move away from you, and for him to feel happy 6 feet away from you at a stand still. THEN you work on setting your 'barrier' that he will learn to respect if YOU learn to keep present about, when walking forward. I can write about that in another post, if you like.


For now, seriously, just try placing him back from you, and allowing him to stand a bit. As a baby, he won't stand long, because his attention span is short, and it will wonder.


If you need to reclaim his attention, you can do something like slap your thigh, or give one short sharp wiggle, just enough. Do as little as necessary, but enough to get a real change. The middle ground will dull him out. Once you have his attention, ask for one step back. Don't overdue, but get real change, then quite for the day.


Don't pet your horse's face at all for a bit. many hroses really dislike this, face petting.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

Loosie - thank you for detailed response. 

I agree with all of those things. 
I have been trying to go with your approach of backing him up by being near his shouder and jiggling the lead rope back. He actually understands that really well, but half of the time he just turns to bite me. I kept giving him elbows to snout and he just was not getting it. Maybe I do need to be firmer with that. 

I have since reached out to a trainer and we are going to put him on a program for a month, I will also be apart of that so I can learn as he does. When I was using the flag, I was attempting to get constant yielding out of him, when In reality, I should have stopped and rewarded after one. 

When I was grabbing under his halter, 90 percent of the time, I was barely putting any actual pressure on his, nose, but I was in his space...

After watching that video it is so evident how little I know. I understand the basics of pressure and release, but the actual hands on work is where I struggle, especially if he decides to try and bite me and it just distracts me from the actual goal. I spend half of the time trying to correct him.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

jscheiner.09 said:


> Loosie - thank you for detailed response.
> 
> I agree with all of those things.
> I have been trying to go with your approach of backing him up by being near his shouder and jiggling the lead rope back. He actually understands that really well, but half of the time he just turns to bite me. I kept giving him elbows to snout and he just was not getting it. Maybe I do need to be firmer with that.
> ...


You need to stop working with this horse till a trainer is involved to help. Horse in several sections of video blocked you made you move your feet. And every time he successfully does that it proves to him he's over you. 

He will hurt you in time he'll up his game get more assertive more aggressive. Best thing you are doing is getting a trainer involved. Without hands on help it wouldn't end well.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Getting him with a trainer that will work with him and work with you and him together is a fantastic plan.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jscheiner.09 said:


> After watching that video it is so evident how little I know. I understand the basics of pressure and release, but the actual hands on work is where I struggle,


Yeah and do not knock yourself, or think we are knocking you for being there tho - we have all been there. Great that you're getting a trainer involved because yeah, you can learn it all in theory, but still, I believe you need hands on feedback & practice to get good hands on. If for eg, instead of posting a vid to a forum, someone experienced were there with you to say 'There! That instant was perfect' or 'that was unclear' or 'timing was a little off right there', at the time you're doing it, you'll learn a lot easier.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

jscheiner.09 said:


> Loosie - thank you for detailed response.
> 
> I agree with all of those things.
> I have been trying to go with your approach of backing him up by being near his shouder and jiggling the lead rope back. He actually understands that really well, but half of the time he just turns to bite me. I kept giving him elbows to snout and he just was not getting it. Maybe I do need to be firmer with that.
> ...





Don't feel discouraged. every one of use, even those with many years with horses, will feel, at one time or another, that they still don't know a darn thing.


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## BetterLateThanNever (Jul 7, 2020)

Are there groundwork training classes available in your area? I'm just starting my horseperson journey and I'm VERY far away from horse ownership, but I've been taking groundwork classes for a little over a month and I'm learning a ton. It might be worth a look on the internet. I also learn a lot by just watching our horse trainers and groundwork crew at the stables.

Kudos to you for reaching out for help on here and from an instructor. This is definitely a time you need hands-on training and support.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Agreed that getting a trainer involved is the best way forward! I did finally watch the first few minutes of the video and I just wanted to scream to you to get off his face! He clearly doesn't like it. But I can see how watching a bunch of videos might lead you to think this is a reward... and it can become a reward in time, but not yet, and maybe never. Two of my horses were headshy, but gradually learned to appreciate it if I scratched their head or ears in just the right spot. They now come ask for scratches. But it took a long time, and at first, I was very careful not to invade their space. 

I'm not a huge fan of wiggling to rope to teach backing up either, but if trained properly, it can be effective. I prefer to ask with a finger to the chest (though that would likely not be a good idea for you) or by walking backward or even facing their shoulder while asking them to back up. Honestly, I prefer liberty work anyway, but I do a lot of ground work because it's necessary. I think teaching this horse to move away from you at liberty might be effective, but at this point, I think you definitely need help. Glad you're getting it! I don't think this horse is beyond helping, but you need to do it correctly for good results. It's definitely not as easy as it looks on Youtube!


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

I am definitely going to put him into a program, as the biting thing is definitely beyond me. When he was getting his feet done, he would put his face on the farriers back for 15 seconds or so, then try to bite down a little bit. 

It is interesting how if I ACTUALLY do something correctly, he responds in a positive way!

Today I worked on backing up from a distance. My goal was to not come into his space at all.

I was about 6+ feet in front of him. 
I started by jiggling the lead rope, then lightly started tapping the lead rope, then I finally wacked the lead rope and he backed up. I made sure to release pressure as soon as he did that. I was giving about 4-6 seconds from the 2nd to 3rd pressure change. I took a 15 second break each time and put my hands at my sides and tried to be as relaxed as possible taking big deep breathes. I did this about 10 times after the 3rd or 4th, he started moving just when I started lightly tapping, then once towards the end he started to move as I jiggled the lead rope.

What was nice was his attention was on me the entire time. Occasionally he would look away if another horse was walking by or a human or something, but mainly it was on me. His eyes also softened about half way through. 

I didn't get bit today which was a plus.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Way to go!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jscheiner.09 said:


> would put his face on the farriers back for 15 seconds or so, then try to bite down a little bit.


Did the farrier not tell you to control him better, or at least tie him up?? Did the farrier just allow this? 

Sounds like you have done better today.


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## Welarathing (Oct 15, 2020)

I believe horses are not "naughty" there is always a cause for the behavior. The bridling issue can be caused by many things, teeth, pain in other areas, not wanting to be ridden, or not liking the bit. When I got my QH he was pushy and got into my space often, and I labeled him as a "naughty" horse, I then looked deeper into his history and found he was trained with the "classic" horse training method. I started using clicker training with him, when he would try to rush or bump into me I would ask him gently to move out of my space, if he did so I click and treat. He had major anxiety when I got him and would shut down a-lot during training, now he is an amazing horse I would have an infant lead.

Another thing I want to say is that chasing a horse around for 30 mins is just exhausting the horse, yes the horse will stand to be bridled because it has no more fight left in him. And the horse will start to associate you with bad things and not want to be around you anymore. I hope this helps, you seem to really want what is best for your horse and I wish you luck!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think that a lot of people get this idea that 'making him move his feet' as the basis for disciplining a horse is real, and that it means that you run the horse around and that creates an obedient horse, and all the ground handling issues go away as a result.


The only thing that, to me, warrants running a horse around a bit is if the horse is unwilling to move forward when asked to do so. And, honestly, many horses will only become stickier , but some will break loose and stop resisting forward movement. It all depends on the handler, though. And, until you can do the basics, and have a sense of timing and feel, you will really only be 'flailing' in the round pen.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Everyone has great advice. 
I just want to point out that horses can't see our hand under their chin or the lead rope under their chin.

My opinion is that when using the lead or our hand to jerk back or down we must realize this comes with no warning to the horse like a rock falling from the sky.

In my opinion, in order to be fair to the horse this should not be used as a regular cue. You can see Arabs sometimes who randomly throw their heads up, expecting a hit to come out of the blue when being led.

I think you can use it as a rare, sudden correction if a horse does something very bad, if the timing is right after. Horses understand that.

Or you can give light pressure and pushes under the chin, followed by a yank if the horse does not respond. But a sudden yank the horse does not know is coming is unfair.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

It sounds like you're making progress. Here's the good news: horses are incredibly forgiving. You can start over. Horses live in the present, not the past. They are always (well, almost, except in cases of real trauma) willing to start over. 

It also sounds like you're very in tune with his body language and that's a great start. Furthermore, everyone here has told you what you did wrong, but you didn't stomp out of the room and slam the door behind you like a lot of people do. If there's one thing horses have taught me, it's humility. You clearly have already accepted that you have a lot to learn and are willing to listen even when it's hard. 

I'd like to suggest some liberty work for you at some point. Even just hanging out with your horse, 20 minutes a day, doing nothing except being in his paddock/pasture for the next couple of weeks. Just BE with him without having any expectation of him coming to you, or paying attention to you. Chances are he will, eventually, but he doesn't need to. Read a book, do some yoga, take some deep breaths and just be. If you look at horses in a herd, they don't interact directly all that much, but they are very aware of each other's presence. If he does come up to you, ignore him. Unless he tries to bite you, at which point you should have a crop or something to send him away. After doing this for a couple more weeks, try going up to him slowly and letting him sniff your hand, then walk away and sit for 20 minutes. Do that for a couple more weeks, then start grooming him. The withers or shoulders are a good place to start. Don't overdo it - stop before he's had enough. Leave him wanting more. The next step is to actually walk up to him in a pasture/paddock, and ask him to move away from you. Push him off with a whip (don't hit him, just walk towards him assertively and wave it until he moves away), than stand where he was standing. Then walk away back to your quiet place for a few minutes. He will likely begin to follow you. 

I've just described the first few steps of a liberty training program that I started following years ago, and that completely changed the relationship I have with my horses. I think that everything goes back to the relationship you create on the ground. But in liberty work, the horse has the option of walking away, and you have to accept that. The goal is to make them want to stay. That's a lot more work, and a bigger time investment than most people realize but once you've tasted it, you will never go back to not having it. 

What I didn't realize when I got into horses again as an adult (I grew up with them, but then didn't have any for a long time) is how long it actually takes to form a relationship with a horse. Give it time. It really helps though if some of that time is somewhat unstructured and not stressful for the horse. If all you do is ask him to do things for you, he'll never want to just BE with you.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

loosie said:


> Did the farrier not tell you to control him better, or at least tie him up?? Did the farrier just allow this?
> 
> Sounds like you have done better today.


The farrier was okay with him putting his nose on his back while he was working. He kept pulling him away but he just said its okay he will feel if he opens his lips to bite. Definitely better with him! I was trying to go to step 5 with out teaching him step 1,2,3 etc.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

Acadian - I like that method. I will start spending a little more time with him/around him not in a working environment. I had to bring him into the stall today to wait to have one of his front left fixed (stepped on his shoe in his stall and took the shoe, and part of his hoof with it). I was able to easily pick his feet with no fuss or signs of being annoyed. Nor did he try and bite me! 

This weekend my friend who is very knowledgeable about horse training had me over to show me some things with her 29 year old mini, and 40 year old Arab.
The Arab can be difficult to catch sometimes. It was a good lesson for body language and pressure. I learned that even just shifting my body weight, or stopping while walking towards them removed the pressure. I was walking towards the Arab, she turned her head away like she was going to walk away. I stopped walking and that was a pressure relief for her. As soon as I stopped, she turned right back around towards me and started paying attention. She showed me some very easy ground exercises to do. It was nice to do them with a horse that wasn't trying to bite me! Hands on work made it easier to understand my levels of necessary pressure and when to apply them.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

when you get your eyes open to how little it takes to influence a horse, with your body, I mean, it begins this place where you work toward 'dancing' with your horse. You invite him toward you, and gently push him back. You lead him to the left, then pull him back around toward you, then pause, then ask him to join and walk next to you, etc, etc, etc.


it can be done with a line on the horse, or without. It's good that you are learning this now, without the line. Well done!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jscheiner.09 said:


> I was trying to go to step 5 with out teaching him step 1,2,3 etc.


That is GREAT that you recognise that. If at first you don't succeed, always analyse what you're doing & find ways to make it clearer, easier for the horse to get Right.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

My very favorite horse that I have ever had is my Arab mare. She has not always been that way. She had two trips to a professional trainer. She used to hate having her ears touched. Now she likes it. She was nervous and spooky. Now she is my best friend. It has taken more time than most people would think that she is worth. 

I got to where I thought that it was me. She is just a really spirited horse. My point of this story is the same thing that other people have said. *We have all been there. *

Getting a trainer to work with you and not just the horse sounds like a great idea. 

I think that you have a nice horse and with some work, the two of you will get along great.


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## Light (Mar 4, 2012)

Hi. I didn’t read all the replies. I thought maybe I could tell you what worked for me as I started out with horses at 47 years old. It is harder when your not starting out as a kid because allot of things that are instinctive for others just aren’t for you yet. Or weren’t for me when I started. 

First off, I can tell you are trying super hard and that’s awesome. You look also to me like you may be a perfectionist, like me. 
Lighten up on yourself, and your horse. 

I see your horse in the video just looks confused. He seems like a very sweet horse that doesn’t understand what you want. The nipping thing to me looks like he gets annoyed with you and just wants you to stop. To me it doesn’t look like he is being assertive or “ dominant “.

Remember he is a horse and doesn’t think like we do. For the most part horses will do what is asked of them if they understand what you want them to do. Horses are agreeable animals usually.

If it was me I would not ask him to back up by the halter or even ask him to back up right now. I think he is being patient but I can tell you from personal experience you can turn a nice horse into a nut job if you push to hard especially messing with his face. When he walks with you his head should be at your shoulder. Not behind. 

I wouldn’t pay his face. You can pay his shoulder, but the face is kind of an invasion of privacy. 

Read up on how horses see. They have a blind spot in the middle of their face. They also see separate out of both eyes so they have allot of information to process all the time.

Relax and just have fun with your horse for a while. Let someone else bridle for now. If he rides well for you ride him. 

I’ll tell you, with my situation the best thing I did was stop the “work” for a while and try to understand my horses perspective from a neutral point of view. You guys are on the same side. Mutual respect is important. If he tries to bite you smack him and let it go and be neutral again.

Only see your horse when your in a good mood. 

I think you guys will do great and he is an awesome horse.


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## jscheiner.09 (May 9, 2020)

Wanted to give an update -

He has been in training for a month. Sort of like a bootcamp!
He has been doing really well.
I did not have much interaction with him the first half of the month and let the trainer do all of the handling. I will say, he is behaving much better. His patience on cross ties is much better, his nibbling problem is much better (not completely solved, but better). He walks much more politely on a lead rope and does not try and walk in front of the handler. My trainer taught him patience using a short tie in his stall. When he was acting out, he would get put on the wall. after a week or two of that, he learned to relax when he was tied up, and felt rescued when he was taken out. The past 6ish times I have been bridled him, he has been patient. He does not throw is head. Occasionally he will take a step back or move his head, but I am right under him to pull his nose back into me. My touch is much more gentle then it was, and he rewards that with an easy bridle.

Now for me, I need to become a better rider. I have a decent seat, but I need to work on using my leg pressure more and keeping my head up looking ahead of me, not a few feet in front of me. 
He is very smart, and rides very well with an experienced rider, and okay with a new rider. He just needs assistance staying on the rail and not drifting off. Occasionally, he gets a little lazy and you need to give him some extra encouragement to get him going. If I can became a good rider, I think he will be much happier.
All in all, the past month went well. Thank you all for the help!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Nice to hear your progress jscheiner.


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