# Bit for headstrong horse



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Has he been trained to neck rein? Has he been used before in a curb bit? And do you know how to ride one handed in a curb bit? It's one thing to say to use a bit with a shank (curb bit), but first the horse and rider need to be able to go in it without confusion.

It's easy for a rider to get too strong or unclear in a curb without meaning to, for instance if your horse started cantering and you tried to do a one rein stop. The cue has to be less strong and have a quick release even if the horse is moving forward strongly, so the rider needs to be confident with that and not cue the same as with a snaffle.

That being said, a double jointed snaffle is almost the gentlest snaffle there is, just above a mullen mouth. Quite possibly you would do better with a different mouthpiece. 

First though, I would wonder about your techniques and training for the horse. You mention doing either a one rein stop or circling as a means to get the horse to drop back down from a canter. Does he reliably drop down to a trot when you canter in the arena? What cues do you use? 
If you pull back on both reins, you might just need a stronger cue for when you are on the trail. 
Do you know how to do a half halt type of cue to slow a horse? 

Some people stop or transition a horse with both reins. That is fine, if a horse is very soft and responsive. A stronger way to ask the horse is to use something that is often called a pulley rein or half halt. I don't like the term pulley, because it implies see sawing on the mouth. Instead, what you do is keep riding the horse forward while fixing one rein (try the left if you are right handed). 

If you don't have a very secure seat, you can hold this left rein steady by pushing it against the horse's neck or even holding it with the mane. This rein should have a light contact with the horse's mouth. Now with a shortened right rein, you can pull back in a steady motion, then let up, then pull again. This pulsing motion is much stronger to the horse than simply pulling back with both reins because he can't brace against it, and if you have a good seat and stable core you ought to be able to stop anything less than a bolting racehorse this way in most cases.

This type of rein cue prevents the horse from turning (you are holding the head steady with your left rein), so you can stop the horse even on a narrow trail without a one rein stop. Be sure to reward the horse the instant he begins to slow, by letting up on the pressure, and he will soon learn to transition from this cue.

If I had to rely on circling or a one rein stop to get a strong horse to stop galloping, I'd be dead or over the edge of a cliff by now. :smile:


----------



## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

I'm probably combining too many things in this post to demonstrate that he is headstrong. I am able to get him to slow down with a half-halt. Probably the biggest issue I have that needs addressing, perhaps with a bit, perhaps with something else, is that he will not always come to a stop when I cue it. I find myself having to one-rein stop him on the trail more often than I should. We cross some roads where there could be traffic, so this is a very important issue for me to work on right now. Right now I am giving him the cue to whoa far before where we need to stop and wait, and if he doesn't respond as I wish, I give him the one rein stop. Maybe working more on this is all I need to do; I don't know. 

The other thing he does which is more an annoyance than a danger is snacking on the trail. Sometimes he's very good, but sometimes (like today) he absolutely will not stop reaching for food while walking. This is a problem because he knows he's stronger than I am and once he gets his head down he goes into "I can do whatever I want" mode and it's very hard to redirect him back to what I want him to do. I don't want this to escalate any further than it is because I see this translating into "I can do whatever I want" in whatever situation he decides. I have to get it stopped.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Because he is sometimes compliant and other times not makes it harder for you to have a consistent level of requirements for obedience. You become lax, perhaps, when he's being mostly good, and so he has no real experience with your riding of a consistently clear expectation of obedience 

When he is doing well in the arena I would suggest working on building his responsiveness to a whoa cue. And then that he learn to back up without dragging and leaning on your hands. Get him lighter to the bit ther by asking, then if he blows past the spot you asked him to stop at ( giving him a bit of warning to be fair. Like , ask with light rein, he can take one step, give him firmer rein and you body has firm core to stop your seat and signal to him to stop his body, he can take one more stop, but then the third step darn well better be a stop, because your hands will stop firm, right where they are, like concrete, and he will hit that firm wall of a bit. Don't pull back but don't give either. You hold firm until he softens. Then release 

Do this as you build up his respect for the bit. Then ask him to not only stop but to back up a few. Steps, too. 

If he starts respecting the bit more he won't barge like he's been doing. Don't worry about being too hard on his mouth the instant he responds, he earns himself a nice loose rein. He has the power to live life with a very loose rein, but for him to appreciate that, he may need to experieythe harder rein. But it's he, himself, who feels it. He ignores the good deal, and ends up with not so good one. Soon he will take the good deal first


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Once a horse manages to get away with you it knows that it can and if you think there's a chance that he's going to eventually run through that bit then maybe better to change up for a while and then go back to the snaffle
I wouldn't go for a typical western type shanked bit because I think its just way too big a leap forward, same goes for the harsher twisted snaffles
If you think poll pressure would help then look at the English leverage bits like pelhams and both types of kimberwick and the Wilkie/bevel bits or go for a different sort of pressure like the English gag bits.
Something that I've found works well if you don't want to bit up is the kineton noseband which puts pressure on the nose as well as the mouth so you don't actually have to increase the pressure as you sort of get 2 for the price of one


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I suggest this bit:










https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=33f9cb66-d8af-4985-bf01-364b2ec41e6b

It is a Billy Allen bit. Sides move independently and it is OK to direct rein with it. The mouthpiece is stable, doesn't fold and seems to rest easy on the tongue. I've used it both with reins attached directly to the mouthpiece and on the shanks. The only problem with it is the round hook-ups at the mouthpiece can get caught in the curb strap.

Mia's all time favorite bit was the same design:










https://www.statelinetack.com/item/greg-darnall-bs-nsba-billy-allen-bit/E012407/

It is a Greg Darnall Billy Allen. I bought mine via eBay.

To teach Mia, who hadn't been in a curb bit before, I put it on her and stood next to her face. I'd move the reins, applying pressure lightly with two fingers holding the reins and ask for side-to-side flexing and also vertical flexing (tucking the head slightly). I'd release if she gave me an inch, and it only took a few minutes before she got the idea and started yielding her head plenty.

Then mounted, and practiced while standing still. Then at a walk. The first arena session took about 45 minutes.

The second session, we worked up to turning and stopping at a trot. I don't ask for a stop with steady pressure. I prefer "Bump, bump, bump" at 0.5-1.0 second intervals - nagging to a stop, I guess. On the second arena session, she got to stopping at a trot using my wrist in a rotating motion on both reins.

Third arena session included turns and stops from a canter. I was still mostly direct reining at the time. She learned neck reining AFTER the switch.

The fourth ride, we went out into the desert. A motorcycle came along a paved road, whining. She started to bolt. Bump, bump, bump, firmly. She stopped straight ahead on the third bump. The motorcycle continued on, oblivious to my horse.

Mia was smart. The light bulb came on. "_I can stand still, and the scary thing runs away from ME?_" She never bolted again, and we had done a lot of bolts.

The next big test came about a month later. She dragged her hind leg against a cactus, then kicked at the irritation, covering her left hind leg in spines. She took off across the desert. Bump, bump, bump. She stopped. When I had her full attention, I dismounted and led her back to the trail. My wife and I removed about a hundred spines, slowly, one at a time. Mia shook her leg, seemed content, so I mounted up and we continued. 

Over time, we went back to riding a lot in a snaffle. But she preferred a curb bit.

Tried the Billy Allen with both Trooper and Cowboy. They both obviously had been ridden before in curbs and had no trouble with them. But they are mostly ridden by inexperienced riders and do fine in snaffles as well, so they rarely use a curb.

After I got Bandit comfortable in a snaffle, I tried him in a curb. Used the same process as with Mia, but it took about 15 minutes and we went out into the desert. He does fine in a curb, including both Tom Thumbs (contrary to what a lot of folks say...it is his preference in curbs) and Billy Allens. But our riding now includes a lot of leaving the trail and going across the desert, which involves a LOT of side to side cueing...so I normally use a snaffle with him.

I see nothing wrong with trying a horse in a curb. Teach them, from the ground, what a pull on one or two reins means, sort of like this - but include vertical flexing:






Make sure the horse understands how to respond. The other thing to remember with a curb is to NEVER snatch on the bit. As the shank (or shanks) rotate, and the mouthpiece is rotating in the mouth, it isn't applying pressure - but it IS giving a cue the horse can (and will) learn to respond to, provided the rider gives him a chance to feel it and respond before the shanks hit 45-60 degrees and the curb strap tightens. That signal to the horse is what allows a curb to be ridden as a very gentle bit. For a horse who gets used to them, and for trail riding, they are great and gentle bits.


----------



## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Thanks everyone. This horse does know how to neck rein but I do not usually rein him that way. I will direct rein, as it's what I've been taught. We will probably move to neck reining in the near future if I keep up lessons with my existing trainer but my current goal in training is to start working with him on transitions.


----------



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Well, I go against the majority here. Partly because it's how I was taught and partly because I have never shown so what type of bit is what I choose, not what the latest flavor in the show ring is.

That said, in my entire life I have only used two types of mechanisms to "steer" a riding horse (we used different bits when the horse was in harness).

1. A low port curb bit with shanks. Those sha ks eventually evolved into swivel shanks thanks to a savvy Amish man.

2. Mechanical hackamore. 

From what you describe, it sounds as if Charlie is getting away with what he can get away with and the bit you are using won't work on a horse intent on having its own way.

I NEVER allow my horses to graze while I'm on their back. I will stop to let them "blow" after a strenuous climb or a swim across a river but no grass goes into their mouths unless I am standing beside them. That is a hard and fast rule 'cause they ain't starving

I am in favor of a low port curb with 4" or 6" SWIVEL shanks and a curb chain, as opposed to a leather curb strap.

You would have to concentrate on your hand pressure as too much pressure is not needed with shanks and a curb chain. I've ridden every horse I've ever owned this way or with a mechanical hackamore and generally can rein them with my pinky finger.

Try and learn neck reining. Charlie already knows how and that might be part of his problem. ---- he doesn't like being direct reined, or as we say on the farm "plow driven". 

If you had a chance to watch that idiot video I posted in the K&K thread, you will notice I neck rein Joker and, considering he hadn't been ridden in six years, I didn't have to do much with those reins. I did some exaggerated movement with my hand that I probably didn't need to do but I was trying to set him up for success since it had been so many years.

I also stuck a hackamore on him and had no idea how he would go in it ---- he has always gone in a low port curb with swivel shanks, even when the lady I bought him from trail rode him. He went perfect but he wasn't under pressure or panic either.

In this day and age, when it comes to trail riding, people try to make way too much out of a simple joy, including fancy bits. 

Less is more. If you can borrow a low port curb with swivel shanks, add a curb chain, do some neck reining, do NOT let Charlie eat on the trail unless you are standing on your feet, I'll betcha things will go a lot better.

And lastly, I should have asked this first ------- what did the Seller use for a bit and was Charlie trail ridden with it? Sometimes people will use a different bit for show than for trail riding

Here is the kind of bit and swivel shanks I use. *EXCEPT these shanks are too long.*. You would want this style shank in 4" or 6".

https://www.horseloverz.com/western...ainless-steel-swivel-cheek-low-port-mouth-bit


----------



## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

The seller was riding him in a three piece snaffle, similar to the one I have him in now.


----------



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

elle1959 said:


> The seller was riding him in a three piece snaffle, similar to the one I have him in now.


Then my next guess is the Seller was a little more forceful with Charlie and probably had a stronger arm. I've seen pictures --- you're a tiny little mite of a thing as granddad used to say

I'm still in favor of trying to find and borrow a low port curb with 4" or 6" swivel shanks and chain curb. Used correctly there is nothing cruel about the set up; it's all in the pressure coming from the rider's hands. 

I was in my early 20's when a wise Amish man convinced me to try this type of bit on my Arab/Saddlebred. He made sure to caution me on not using a lot of pressure because that kind of set up doesn't need much pressure.

The day I put that bit on my horse was the day he stopped tossing his head around. Some horses like the freedom swivel shanks seem to give them. 

The bits aren't expensive but it's still money wasted if it doesn't work. It would be great if someone would let you borrow one for a few rides.


----------



## zephyr911 (Apr 23, 2017)

http://pin.it/XdFySnL


----------



## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

While a shank bit may help, I would suggest considering other possibilities.

Some horses act differently when ridden outside than when ridden in an arena. This may be likened to a school student acting differently when on a field trip rather than when in a classroom. You may simply need to teach the horse that he is “in class” when being ridden no matter where he is being ridden.

If you have been accustom to riding in a flat arena, you may need to pay more attention to how you are balancing when riding on uneven terrain. A rider’s balance can have significant influence on how a horse moves. 

Remember that you can always put sideways pressure (not backward pressure) on one rein while releasing pressure with the other rein. You don’t need much lateral space to completely turn a horse around using this technique. Always establish control in an environment where you are comfortable before moving to a more challenging environment

A smooth give an take on the reins usually works better at slowing a horse than a constant pull. A constant pull presents a force that a horse may easily resist. A smooth take and give indicates what you want without giving the horse anything to resist against.

When a horse tries to eat, I suggest keeping the reins short enough that you can keep him from eating by placing your had on his neck. If you simply try to hold him, he may feel he can out pull you. If you brace your hands on his neck the resistence he feels will be more like what he feels when tied while, at the same time, relieving the pressure you feel. Be sure you do not lose your balance when bracing your hands on the horse’s neck.


----------



## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Have you tried a hackamore combo type bit? I use one on my old grouchy gelding and it works. 








Another thing. My mare does the same thing your horse does. She can be barn sour (she was really bad when I got her) and the trainer who had her before used the hack combo on her. I didn't like the idea of having to use a rough bit. Not because it causes more discomfort to the horse, but because I want to feel like I don't have to wrestle my horse into obeying. Not to mention she tossed her head terribly and it was like riding a bouncy ball. I re-trained her mouth-wise in a snaffle. It was really hard, she'd come close to running away with me. The only thing that worked for her was to just got on and work her. Round pen work and if you don't have one (like me) I just took her to my back field and rode her in large circles. I went from a horse that would take a snaffle in her teeth, to a horse I can ride in a tom thumb. No more head tossing either.


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

walkinthewalk said:


> Then my next guess is the Seller was a little more forceful with Charlie and probably had a stronger arm. I've seen pictures --- you're a tiny little mite of a thing as granddad used to say


You've had some good advice, and I agree with those who have said to try a gentle curb - it sounds like you and the horse have enough experience to use one.

You could try a Kimberwicke which is a very short curb, but if you are not very strong, any shortish shanks should be easy enough to use without applying too much pressure. My horse has odd anatomy and the Kimberwicke pinched her cheek when I pulled on one rein.
I have one of these, and I like it very much. You can two-rein easily without confusing the horse.








My horse really likes the Myler mouthpiece and takes it onto her tongue right away and holds it. 

I wouldn't go from a snaffle to the hackamore combo bit, because that is like going up ten levels in strength from your current snaffle. 
The reason I suggested a stronger snaffle is because my philosphy is to go up one step at a time, until you find what the horse needs. So I'll go from a double-jointed to a thinner mouthpiece that doesn't wrap around the tongue, to a kimberwicke to a short-shank curb. 

It's also not wrong to use a curb with curved shanks that give pre-signal and a gentle mouthpiece, and many horses go very well in them.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

ChieTheRider said:


> Have you tried a hackamore combo type bit? I use one on my old grouchy gelding and it works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now that I would class as being a strong bit. Twisted wire mouth, curb and noseband pressure. 

I am not against bitting up at all. I would rather a horse had something in its mouth that it respected than one that it can ignore if it chooses.


----------



## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Foxhunter said:


> I am not against bitting up at all. I would rather a horse had something in its mouth that it respected than one that it can ignore if it chooses.


Amen. Better a strong bit that keeps you and the horse safe by giving you control than a kind bit that could get you both hurt.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

elle1959 said:


> My main issue now is that he still has his days when he decides he's just going to do what he wants no matter what I do with him, and he will fight through the bit as though it isn't even there. I have him in a three-piece snaffle, similar to a French link,
> 
> He is responsive when he wants to be and I want to be soft with him, but it is not always easy or possible.
> 
> A few people have suggested I try him in a shank. I've had various suggestions on what shank to try, so thought I'd bring the question here to see what everyone here thinks.


I agree to put him into a shank.

I'd rather have a soft cue with a shank, than have to PULL with a snaffle to get a response.

If you have him in a 3-piece mouth now, I would suggest finding a shanked bit with a similar mouthpiece. 

A Jr. Cowhorse is a nice transitions bit









Or something similar like this: (no gag)









If he has never been ridden in a shank before, you should not need much. 

Also, I like the 3-piece mouth in a shanked bit because you can still direct rein with it, because the design lets you give that direct rein pressure without confusing the horse too much. 

And sometimes after riding in a "harsher" bit for a little while, you can go back down to a lighter bit and have them remain responsive. So it's not that you have to use the same bit all the time ... you can switch it up on them. 



elle1959 said:


> The other thing he does which is more an annoyance than a danger is snacking on the trail. Sometimes he's very good, but sometimes (like today) he absolutely will not stop reaching for food while walking. This is a problem because he knows he's stronger than I am and once he gets his head down he goes into "I can do whatever I want" mode and it's very hard to redirect him back to what I want him to do. I don't want this to escalate any further than it is because I see this translating into "I can do whatever I want" in whatever situation he decides. I have to get it stopped.


You are correct that horses are stronger. 

What I have done with my horses to teach them not to eat on the trail, is I allow them to make the "mistake" of going for grass (meaning, I ride on a loose rein and I don't stop them from going for it) and then I take the end of my reins (or you could use a whip) and I *SMACK* them at the top of the neck near their head. They figure it out pretty quick that they are not to be snitching grass while we are trying to ride.

I prefer to do that than jerking on their mouth with the bit .... which is another way to do it. But that's just my preference.


----------



## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

zephyr911 said:


> http://pin.it/XdFySnL


But my horse doesn't have a hard mouth. He's extremely responsive when he wants to be. My goal is actually to keep him from developing a hard mouth because I don't want to have to manhandle his mouth in order to keep his attention. And yes, we do all the groundwork. Perhaps I'm just expecting too much, too soon, because he's smart and he learns quickly- which can be a double-edged sword.


----------



## elle1959 (Sep 7, 2015)

Thanks to you all for your suggestions. I like the idea of transitioning up slowly in severity, both because it makes sense to try finding a minimal level of harshness that helps, and also it will make it easier for me to transition to a softer hand, as well. I'm starting to find myself bracing for his misbehavior, which isn't good, and I know I need to start paying more attention to that. There's never any doubt that the rider is usually part of the problem.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

elle1959 said:


> But my horse doesn't have a hard mouth. He's extremely responsive when he wants to be. My goal is actually to keep him from developing a hard mouth because I don't want to have to manhandle his mouth in order to keep his attention. And yes, we do all the groundwork. Perhaps I'm just expecting too much, too soon, because he's smart and he learns quickly- which can be a double-edged sword.


 The fact that he's sensitive (in his mouth) when he wants to be would make him a good candidate for a Kineton noseband. The combi bit idea works in a similar way but you'd need a mouthpiece that was much the same as the one you normally use and a less severe hackamore or cover it with sheepskin. 
This is what the kineton noseband looks like so you can see how it works by combining bit and nose pressure. Ignore the reins the horse in the advert has on, they have nothing to do with the noseband


----------



## zephyr911 (Apr 23, 2017)

elle1959 said:


> But my horse doesn't have a hard mouth. He's extremely responsive when he wants to be. My goal is actually to keep him from developing a hard mouth because I don't want to have to manhandle his mouth in order to keep his attention. And yes, we do all the groundwork. Perhaps I'm just expecting too much, too soon, because he's smart and he learns quickly- which can be a double-edged sword.


I understand your frustration! My mare had the same problem


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

You're less likely to get a horse that ignores the bit if you use a stronger bit lightly and judiciously rather than having to pull very hard on a gentle snaffle. 

I practice getting my horses to eat on the trail a lot, because it's very helpful in endurance to have a horse that will take grazing breaks while you're in the saddle. But practicing means they put their head down when you say it's OK, and they stop grazing when you're ready to go. I've been on some rude grazers before, and I prefer to smack the butt with the end of the reins rather than try to pull the head up or smack the neck. Then I make them trot off.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

elle1959 said:


> But my horse doesn't have a hard mouth. He's extremely responsive *when he wants to be*.


Which some may say that then your horse DOES have a hard mouth. :wink:

Terminology aside, I think you are going about it the right way to get a little more control on him.


----------

