# Struggle w/ 2 point



## Gigembritt (Oct 5, 2013)

I guess I feel I struggle with getting up! I can't stay up very long and I feel I will fall forward!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

2-point at the walk when you warm up, and transition up into trot, then down again into walk. You aren't allowed to sit down until you start to become balanced.

It'll get better  Make sure you don't allow your back to be too ridgid. Nice and soft and rounded


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Why are you needing to practice 2 Point?
Are you intending to compete in jumping classes?


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## Gigembritt (Oct 5, 2013)

I show hunters


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I'm a heavier rider also.
I find if I over-arched my back it took me out of balance...
You appear to be trying so hard you are defeating yourself. A flatter back will also tuck your tush back under you some so you don't have "tail waving in the air" perchy look to you.

It is also a harder thing to do if your "core" muscles (abdominal) are not what they need to be...they will get there.

In the meantime, use your arms and hands to balance on while working those muscles to stronger.
Remember _the horse is to rise to you_, you_ do not rise over the horse_ or you will take a nasty fall if the horse sudden stops or ducks out...

Go look at some of the George Morris jumping critiques he has done... you can learn a lot by looking at pictures of others and reading what a true expert says about their form. You can't get much if at all better than George...

"Classic form" not "fad" in style of riding will help you. I can't explain it better...but go look and see the written blurbs...

Don't give up, nothing worth having or doing in this equestrian world was easy to achieve.


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## Gigembritt (Oct 5, 2013)

Thank you!!!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Pointing your toes out helps balance you a bit better, gives you a wider platform. Helped me a bunch when I first starting doing 2 point.


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## jagman6201 (Mar 13, 2009)

Please don't 2pt with toes out - that is such a tough habit to break once you've gotten used to it! Plus it lend to start gripping with your calf and taking your knee off.

The thing that stuck with me when I was learning to 2pt (I was a bigger girl too) was my trainer telling me not to over try. Devote 10-15 minutes ever ride to really practicing your true 2pt (can be divided up over 1-2 minute attempts) but then let it be. It's better to really concentrate for those short burst, do it well and right - then to struggle all through the ride at 75%. Slowly you'll get stronger doing it right (don't take short cuts) and can increase length and start trotting, or going over polls, etc. 

It's like if you've never jogged before. Every good running/jogger will tell you not to over train and to do 1minute of jog - 3 minutes of walk, etc for a 20minute "run". Same with getting the muscle and stamina to do 2pt.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jagman6201 said:


> Please don't 2pt with toes out - that is such a tough habit to break once you've gotten used to it! Plus it lend to start gripping with your calf and taking your knee off...


Hmmmm...George Morris, Littauer, Chamberlin and others with a pretty impressive track record disagree with you. The US Cavalry manual said:

"Toes turned in stiffen the ankles, force the heels out, and cause loss of contact of proper parts of the calves of the legs. This fault reduces the security of the rider and makes the correct use of the legs impossible. Excessively turned out toes stiffen the ankles, put the knees out of contact, place the rider on the back of his thighs and disrupt the seat."

Where is that sweet spot? It varies for each person and depends in part on what horse they are on. It could run as little as 10 deg, or as much as 45 deg.


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## jagman6201 (Mar 13, 2009)

bsms said:


> Hmmmm...George Morris, Littauer, Chamberlin and others with a pretty impressive track record disagree with you. The US Cavalry manual said:
> 
> "Toes turned in stiffen the ankles, force the heels out, and cause loss of contact of proper parts of the calves of the legs. This fault reduces the security of the rider and makes the correct use of the legs impossible. Excessively turned out toes stiffen the ankles, put the knees out of contact, place the rider on the back of his thighs and disrupt the seat."
> 
> Where is that sweet spot? It varies for each person and depends in part on what horse they are on. It could run as little as 10 deg, or as much as 45 deg.


I said nothing about forcing her toes in. 

Just don't duck foot it. The comment I was referring to just said - stick your toes out - which to a novice rider and be interpreted as the latter part of your quote. Actually - I'm pretty sure I paraphrased that last part - that excessively pointing your toe of leads to your knee coming off and rolling onto the back of your leg. I agree - you want a natural "roll" to you leg so your toes come off the horse naturally. Really the depend on how "far" is where the inseam of your calf falls on the horse and how your ankles "attach" from there. 

But you don't want to STICK your toes out to gain false balance and create a whole other tub of troubles.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

It's not a false balance, it's a wider platform. Comes from an athletic stance, such as kickboxing, which I do. You won't grip with your knees either, in fact, it'll get your calves elongated. After you develop the muscle memory, you won't even want that platform as your legs and feet will be in the position you need for aids. Anyways, it was the way I was taught through thousands of dollars of instruction and it worked.


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## jagman6201 (Mar 13, 2009)

waresbear said:


> It's not a false balance, it's a wider platform. Comes from an athletic stance, such as kickboxing, which I do. You won't grip with your knees either, in fact, it'll get your calves elongated. After you develop the muscle memory, you won't even want that platform as your legs and feet will be in the position you need for aids. Anyways, it was the way I was taught through thousands of dollars of instruction and it worked.


Perhaps I am confused by what you're trying to illustrate... Maybe elaborate more than just turn your toes out? 

Because what my mind automatically turns to when someone says "turn your toes out" (without any further instruction or elaboration, which assuming you're talking to a novice rider is not going to necessarily know the potentially vices of turning your toes too far out) turned to someone who has lost their core foundation in their leg and turns to either gripping with their calf/back of thigh or pinching with their knee. 









Any how, if we're going to go off your analogy of kick boxing then you have tho think of not only the width of stance, but the position of your feet in correlation to your entire body. Stand up with your feet at their natural position (could be straight forward, slightly out-turned, etc [like bsms said, that varies]) spread about shoulder width. Have someone try and push you lightly off balance. Now turn your toes out and do it. You're WAY more unstable. Case in point and translates to on top of a horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The problem is that MANY instructors tell their students to turn their toes FORWARD. Having been a newbie not that long ago, that results in gripping with the knees.

When I took martial arts, BTW, I was taught the basic stance had one leg back some, feet at a 90 deg angle from each other. That would be 45 out with two feet...but there is more to it when riding.

However, for the OP: I recently bought a copy of "Riding and Schooling Horses" by Harry Chamberlin.

Riding And Schooling Horses: Harry D. Chamberlin, John Cudahy, Edwin M. Sumner: 9781163173299: Amazon.com: Books

It has the best description I've ever read of how to sit, position XYZ and WHY that advice works. For anyone learning a forward seat, it is the best beginner's book I've seen. It, BTW, recommends 20-45 toes out, and explains what that gives you.


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## jagman6201 (Mar 13, 2009)

Totally agree that you shouldn't force your toes in. They should "flare" naturally with you calves being on the horses sides actively. 

Again - my whole point was less the advice that was given, but rather how it was delivered. Telling a novice student to turn their toes out with no follow-up doesn't bode well for success, just as much as if she had said to turn her toes in. 

Great book btw.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Its far easier to learn the right way than it is to start out wrong and then re-learn
If you can train your muscles to have your toes pointing as much forward as possible then you'll be less likely to end up with them pointing too far out and result in having the backs of your legs against the horse and your heels digging in its side - which will be even worse if you wear spurs
Having your toes turned more forwards will encourage your lower leg, thigh and knee to lie in the correct position for 2 Point
There is no reason whatsoever why it should stiffen the ankle if you build up to it gradually
From your pic your upper body looks very stiff - your back's too hollowed as a result of that and a lot of tension in your neck and shoulders
Try to relax and go with the flow!!!


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## Gigembritt (Oct 5, 2013)

I am very stiff!! I just don't feel secure!! I am riding tomorrow and going to try to relax! It's my lack of muscle that is my biggest problem I think!! 

Going to order the book right now!!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

How are you in your general riding? 
There seems to be a current trend for trainers rushing their students into 2 point and jumping before they feel really balanced and confident - and fit enough in their muscles for it.
You could try various non riding exercises in between lessons to help strengthen your legs


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## Gigembritt (Oct 5, 2013)

I am a convert from western... I feel my trot is very good and canter when I sit.... My lower leg isn't as strong as I like.... Sometimes I have too much knee... Not enough calf.... And I am verrrrrrrry rigid... I don't have the grace I see some riders have. I am a very brave rider.... Trainer wants us riding perched at the canter so that's hard for me.... I am getting better every week!! 

What are some things I can do on my own for strength?


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## Gigembritt (Oct 5, 2013)

And I come down too quickly after the jump.... I kinda plop down


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee, your theory that two point it best done with toes forward conflicts with every reference I can find, and it conflicts with my own experience. 

"_you'll be less likely to end up with them pointing too far out and result in having the backs of your legs against the horse and your heels digging in its side_"

If George Morris, Harry Chamberlin & VS Littauer say you can have your toes up to 45 degrees out without that happening, and if I (as a relatively inexperienced rider) can do that without it happening, then what is your basis for that statement? My toes stick out 30-40 degrees. My heels do NOT dig into my horse's side. 

I do not ride with spurs, and I have no idea if Gigembritt plans to use them or not. But the US and European cavalries rode over rough country and did some fairly extreme riding - with spurs. 










The Portuguese Army:










Guy V. Henry, Jr., President of the Fédération Équestre Internationale (1931–1935, according to Wiki):










And just because it is an interesting picture...:shock::


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Gigembritt said:


> I am a convert from western... I feel my trot is very good and canter when I sit.... My lower leg isn't as strong as I like.... Sometimes I have too much knee... Not enough calf.... And I am verrrrrrrry rigid... I don't have the grace I see some riders have. I am a very brave rider.... Trainer wants us riding perched at the canter so that's hard for me.... I am getting better every week!!
> 
> What are some things I can do on my own for strength?


The strength you need in 2Point comes mostly from your thigh so anything that's going to work those muscles will help you. I used to do a lot of cycling and if you resist sitting on the bike saddle that helps even more!! I'm sure if you Google exercises you can do in the comfort of your home you'll find lots of suggestions
The plopping back down is likely also down to your lack of muscle
The being rigid is maybe lack of confidence in your own balance - have you tried holding a handful of mane to support yourself?
I find that people progress better when they start of by just tilting their body forward when they canter to start with and building up from that


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## Gigembritt (Oct 5, 2013)

Thank you for the great info! I am going to get started today! 

I do grab mane but its like I still feel I'm going to fall forward! So I get rigid....


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

In the UK riding school I worked at we used to do the same exercises that I did when I was little - not so easy as you get stiffer I know and *you do need a* *solid sensible hor*se - but we would have the rider sit in normal leg position and lean right back so their head was lying on the horses butt and then lean right forward so you are lying along the horses back - or as close as your body will allow!! You can also improve your suppleness and balance by touching your right toe with your left hand and vice versa
Riding on the lunge with no reins - arms outstretched or folded - and riding without stirrups - all good for balance and confidence


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## Gigembritt (Oct 5, 2013)

Haha I will be sure to try those!!!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

If you feel as if and are falling forward..._forget_ grabbing the mane and _plant _the hands on both sides of the neck for some support. 
Doing this will also teach you the "feel" of holding yourself in that position...the horse moving forward in anything faster than a walk actually gives you some impulsion to stay aloft of their back.

"Perching" is a fad trainers now teach.
You need to ride sitting _on_ _and around_ your horse, _not_ perching stiffly above it with your fanny blowing in the breeze.(that is actually how you look, _sorry_)
That is one of the reasons why you feel insecure...you _are_ "perching" _above_ the horse _not_ riding with that horse _between_ your legs, butt under your torso more and relaxing your back...your back_ is_ part of your shock absorber that _will _absorb the jar and keep you steady and stationary... stiffen and it hurts, it is harder to ride and easier to kiss your butt goodbye on the way to the ground...

_Eyes up, heels down, relax the back, let the weight flow and sink into the heels...your ankles should also not be tense as they absorb and truly do move to help your balance..._

Me, I think you are being rushed faster & further than you are ready and comfortable doing... all are safety issues. 
Tell your trainer you need and want to go back, you want more time to strengthen and get the steps previous to 2-point solidly in place and comfortable...then and only then move on.
If your trainer can't or won't agree with this...maybe a new trainer or approach is needed..you should_ not _be fearful and you sound as if you are.

Good luck...remember, this is supposed to be fun!!

_jmo..._


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