# I'm Angry Today. At my granbaby's dad.



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I get that you're upset, and as a mother I would be too, and I also get that you haven't asked for advice, but...

Just to be clear, this guy is paying some kind of child support. You do, legally, have the right to take grandbaby out of the state, whether he agrees or not? Because if that is at all in doubt, he sounds like the kind of person who might try to fight it in court.

ETA: Also I'm sorry he's treating your daughter like this.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

My uncle is exactly like that. Terrible to his wife and kids and everything. I'm sorry.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I can completely understand where you are coming from - and although you did not ask for advice I am going to give it. Grandparents have NO RIGHTS at all - and unless there is a custody agreement in place he can (and eventually will) call some of the shots with his child. Regardless of whether or not he chooses to see her or not see her. If I were you I would look into some type of shared guardianship with your grandchild. That way you do have some say in what happens.

I know from my own experience - that this can get ugly and the courts generally side with the parent (no matter how crappy they are)

Take a deep breath


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

ACinATX said:


> I get that you're upset, and as a mother I would be too, and I also get that you haven't asked for advice, but...
> 
> Just to be clear, this guy is paying some kind of child support. You do, legally, have the right to take grandbaby out of the state, whether he agrees or not? Because if that is at all in doubt, he sounds like the kind of person who might try to fight it in court.
> 
> ETA: Also I'm sorry he's treating your daughter like this.



He's paying under the table. There's no court ordered custody and c.s. order in place. Regardless, with the permission of grandbaby's MOTHER, my daughter, we would have the right to do so.


BTW - I work for an attorney. I've done this for 20+ years. Family law/custody was the bread and butter of my last boss (The one chased out of a horse pen while trying to gift said horse with watermelon). With the written permission of the custodial parent (That would be my daughter), I can take my grandbaby anywhere in the US. I can't take her say, to Mexico, I don't think, without both parent's consent (Though I have taken minors out of the country before - we took daughters bff in HS with us to Cozumel one summer... TSA didn't even look at the letter the girl's mom provided, per their own regulations - just her passport)


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

@AtokaGhosthorse I'm glad you know the in's and out's of the very frustrating family law world, and have people you can tap into for advice. 



I hope your daughter finds her backbone and more importantly , her self worth. It's going to be a rough road without either of those assets.


Won't offer advice, just some support. Please vent when ever the need arises. It's hard enough when you personally go through something like this, but to watch your daughter...it just twists you up.


Hang in, you are one strong lady!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

TY. 



Yeah, legally, even if there was a custody order in place, the only way he could stop it, since we'd have the custodial parent (Our daughter)'s permission, would be to file an emergency ex parte order with the Court.


A friend of ours who's the family law judge here says it would be darn near impossible to convince a judge to stop us from taking her on a 5 day vacation, in the continental US, so from a legal stand point, I know what's up. This is all I've done for 20 years, so I know who to tap as you said. The attorney I work for now doesn't do family law (yuck, we all agree, that genre of law practice sucks), but y'know. Yeah. At my last place of work, that's all I did for 12 years, day in, day out.


So.


That leaves me with the thing that really made me angry - the abuse, the need to be a bad***, to try to control my daughter. She better get that backbone sorted - because also being in this line of work - I do DHS adoptions. Can't tell you how many kids get beaten nearly to death by abusive men hooked up with a momma. It's horrifying what they do to someone else's daughters and sons. I don't want my grandchild/ren becoming a statistic.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

AtokaGhostHorse, is your daughter afraid of him, and of upsetting him? Or, and I hope this is NOT a possibility, is she hopeful of a possible future with him? Sorry if I'm prying, but it does help with developing a backbone to know which it is. 



Just so you know, I grew an iron backbone because I knew I did not want a future with my son's father.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Walkamile said:


> AtokaGhostHorse, is your daughter afraid of him, and of upsetting him? Or, and I hope this is NOT a possibility, is she hopeful of a possible future with him? Sorry if I'm prying, but it does help with developing a backbone to know which it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Just so you know, I grew an iron backbone because I knew I did not want a future with my son's father.



I don't know. This is weird to me, to my husband. We didn't raise her to be afraid of anyone. I've dealt with an Always Angry Father - I'm so glad my dad grew up himself, but he was never verbally abusive and belittling to us. Just quick to fire with his belt if you disrespected him or broke their rules - and they weren't even strict parents. We just knew to not challenge him. He was the undisputed alpha - but he EARNED it and he balanced it with love and joy. He didn't grind us under.


It made me grow up to be a strong, confident woman. My daughter though? We don't get it.


I think... she has a low self-esteem. She's not... a petite.... young lady. She's nearly 6ft tall, wears a size 11 shoe. She's not well put together in terms of build - she inherited my long legs, but my husband's build - no waist, no butt, no boobs, she's build like a brick wall. She's a big ol' gal.

I don't think she thinks she's pretty enough, sexy enough for a better class of man. Which astounds me. But low self-esteem is where a lot of this comes from in other women (tolerating abuse), so why not her? It's either that, or she's... so hurt? And lonely, she'll put up with it.

I plan to have a sit-down with her. She's dated some really atrocious, low class young men, to our horror, and I think it's because she feels she has no other choice. She needs to respect herself more than that, and be willing to hold out for WOW, not He'll Do.

Let me give you an example of the first time I saw his true colors.

I was in the kitchen, doing dishes and had dinner on. He was in the living room, sitting in Hub's recliner. Daughter was BIG pregnant, sitting on the couch. He was yaking about something, she gave him an absent Uh Huh... sure... and I heard him SNAP his fingers at her, super loud, and say: You better effing be looking at ME when I'm talking to you.

By then, I was looking at him.

Hard looking.

He looked up, saw me, and his face turned bright red.

I said: She may not have been looking at you, but I **** sure am. Don't you ever talk to her like that again.

Apparently, my warning didn't take hold.

I've caught him via facetime barking orders at grandbaby to stop 'whining' when she's getting tired of being held in Daughter's lap for the visit on the phone and wants down to play. My GOD man. She's not even a year old yet.!? and you're talking to your own baby like that?

I just... IDK. I think I understand now why Superman actually tried to kill him, why Sarge hates him, and why Trigger was terrified of him. Gina wouldn't let him touch her, she'd stay just out of reach and act like she was ignoring him. He used to raise hell about Oops and how she was mean and stubborn... I overheard him mouth off once how she needed a bullet in her head. 

No, I think she just didn't like him. They knew what this kid was and is, and for all I can usually sniff one out pretty quick, he had me fooled for too long. Now that I see him for what he is, I can't get over how fragile his ego is and how vicious he is when he's challenged or has his pride wounded... but he doesn't have the sand to repeat himself to my husband or any other man 'bigger' than him. He picks his 'victims' carefully, and I think he used to try to subtly bully our horses... and they lashed out at him, each in their own way.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

My daughter learned on her own what two of her children's father was like. I tried to tell her but she just wouldn't see it until they finally split and she was on her own with two kids. There was a court order for child support and visitation (thanks to me paying for a lawyer), but he has almost never paid the child support. And it's all of about $200 per month for two kids!! The few times he has paid it - not out of choice - he's then called her and berated her for doing something like getting her hair done. Because apparently his $200 a couple of times per year puts her in a position to lavish herself with goodies...LOL! 

Anyway, at first he just didn't see the kids like his visitation said he should, until he got with someone else and was expecting another baby. Then all of a sudden he wanted to be Mr. Dad...on his terms. He'd ask to see the kids when it wasn't his weekend. Or, he'd find out when my daughter had plans with the kids and say it was his weekend he had a right to see them. Silent for months, she'd plan a trip to see us or something, and all of a sudden it was his weekend and he would call the cops if she didn't show up when she was supposed to. And of course only showed up around their birthdays with expensive gifts that were unnecessary. 

I told her years ago that he was manipulative and she couldn't see it. After he started only showing up when she had other plans she realized I was right. Now she stands up to him. He only calls the kids on holidays, and blames her for them not caring to talk much to him. She doesn't say bad things about him to the kids, they have seen it on their own too. He lives about 8 hours away and gets mad at her when she won't bring the kids to him when it's his weekend. 

I think some people just don't see what jacka$$'s they really are. Maybe they grew up that way, or think it's fun to see how they can get people to do what they want, or they're just plain mean people. I don't know. But most of the time someone in your daughter's - and mine - situation, they have to see it for themselves. They have to be continually inconvenienced or embarrassed by how they're being treated before they stand on their own two feet and say No. Or they have to find someone that does treat them right before they see how they were being treated badly.


Hang in there, hopefully he'll find someone else and move on. It's unfortunate that some kids can't have two loving parents in their lives, but sometimes it's better if one (or both) of the parents aren't involved. The best you can do is make sure your granddaughter is safe and well cared for and sees how loving people treat each other. Your daughter may just have to figure out on her own how to stand up for herself. Because unfortunately grandparents do not have a lot of rights.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Thank you, @*Kriva* . I've been sitting here this afternoon, kinda... finally over the rage... but in it's wake is emotional exhaustion. I'm just wrung dry now.

But I could real lively in a hurry if I had to deal with the jackwagon again before the sunsets.

*sigh*

I just... don't get it about her and why she allows him to treat her like this, esp in the presence of their daughter.

My trail riding friend went through an abusive marriage, and finally got enough. We don't discuss what happened to her in detail, I don't pry and she doesn't volunteer. This was during our 'grown apart' stage.

She found her backbone somewhere in all that, and now she's a force to reckon with. I've asked her to talk to my daughter, privately, in the past, if we can ever get her out camping with us. She said it'll have to be handled delicately because for some reason, women like my daughter, like my friend used to be, will run right TO that sort of man if you start harping on them to get away from that type of man. But she's been willing in the past. I know she's still willing. It's just a matter of the opportune moment presenting itself. Hopefully she can get through to my daughter if I can't.


I did notice, when daughter was with him, and before she got pregnant, she was starting to behave like him around the horses - his ignorance and being more of the type to bulldog a horse into submission, rather than take the time to understand them was wearing off on her. I'm glad he's gone and she'll listen to me now. Someone was going to get horribly hurt. I also noticed our dogs didn't like him. He'd order them around, demand they sit and the tone he used wasn't an alpha tone, it was aggressive. I kept thinking he was just young and brash, showing off.


One dog, which we no longer have, Hank, actually got enough of him and lunged for him one night. I wasn't there, Hub's was. Hub's said he couldn't blame the dog on that.


You know it's bad when horses and dogs hate someone.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

How frustrating this situation must be for you , Ghost. We love our children, but sometimes they disappoint us. Somehow, she needs some successes that make her feel proud of herself, and we can't manufacture that for them.


My thoughts on this are:


1. Document interactions . . . when he visits, or calls. I might even record the conversations, if he is being verbally abusive. at some time in the future, you may need proof, if your daughter seeks sole custody.


2. As your grandbaby grows, be very careful not to badmouth her father within her hearing. That father is part of HER, so to badmouth him is to critisize her, in a strange way. When my parents divorced, my mother often badmouthed my dad (who was a great guy, just not perfect). This only made me resent my MOM more.


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## ksbowman (Oct 30, 2018)

The one most unsettling thing about this is you daughter allows it. If his verbal abuse turns to physical abuse it can have a bad ending. I know I'm a man telling a woman about what should be allowed probably won't settle well. If your daughter allows it now she may fall into the abused woman syndrome where she gets into a series of relationships being treated the same way in all of them. Please don't let her allow it now and stay away from men with the same personalities in the future. There are too many good men out there to settle for low life's like this, help her stop it NOW!


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Just got back from a class. I think you are correct about low self esteem, and this guy worked it against her. They do that. My ex had convinced me over time that my family tolerated me because of their love for him!!!!


When I left with my infant son, it took me a long time to feel like a person again. The one thing I asked of my family, was that they never say anything negative about my son's father to my son. Basically, if you have nothing good to say, say nothing. So that is what they did.


My son grew up and has a relationship, though difficult, with his father. Many times he came to me and vented about the man. I listened, and would tell him, this is who your father is. He will not change. So, if you want him in your life, you know what the limitations are.


Early in my divorce, my ex would try to speak to me in the same demeaning and debasing way. I told him, calmly and without emotion, that would no longer be tolerated. I would hang up, if on the phone. If in person, I would shut the door on him. I also told him the police were aware of our situation, and one call they would be there pronto. He was more afraid of public exposure then anything. 



We actually have a fairly cordial relationship now, it has been almost 40 years since our divorce. 



Fortunately my son had a remarkable man come into his life when he was 5. My DH is the man that taught my son how to be a good man, husband and wonderful father, and he will tell you that.


@AtokaGhosthorse if your daughter could get some much needed counseling to help her see that she is a valuable person, it would be so helpful. Of course, that would be her choice. I couldn't afford counseling, but knew I was so badly damaged that until I fixed myself, I would attract that same kind of man. I stayed single for a long time and worked on bettering myself and in the long run healing.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I would love her to get some counseling, but I don't think she'll ever do that - she doesn't recognize she has a problem. Until she does, all the asking and begging in the world won't work, and with her, she's so. hard. headed. we'd end up in a knock down drag out. That's happened before when we found out she was hanging out not at a friend's house regularly, but at that friend's MOMMA'S house - the uncle of the friend is a big time meth dealer, a suspected rapist, and generally a horrible person.


She was 18 at the time, and pulled the old I'm 18 I can do whatever I want card on us. Things went violently downhill from there. It was not the finest hour for either us. But the point is, we had to come to fisticuffs for me to get it through her head that yes that guy IS as bad as everyone was telling her, YES he's the biggest dope dealer in the county, YES he has probably drugged and raped women in the past. YES he was likely to force meth on her to get a new customer and rape her too while he was at it.

I don't understand how she can be so hard headed and yet allow this ex to treat her like this.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I really do think that your daughter is afraid of this man and she might have good cause to be or at least firmly believe that she has good cause to be.
Speaking as someone who, like your daughter, was brought up to be tough, independent, and never afraid to speak my mind and stand up for my rights I think I can maybe understand what could be happening now.
I made the mistake of marrying the wrong person when I was very young. Unlike your grandchild's father, my ex was charming in front of all of my family. Before we married he was loving, romantic and attentive towards me. As soon as we married he was a different person, mentally and physically abusive. I've never figured out why. 
I'm sure he would have eventually killed me if I hadn't got the courage to get away. 
Our local police were wonderful. I had good friends that supported me all the way but I've never told anyone in my family what he was really like.
As far as they know I left because he had affairs. I don't know why I've never been able to tell them but its probably because deep down I think that they will see my as something less than the strong person I was supposed to be. My parents and grandparents are all dead now but my siblings are still alive and well
It was only when we moved to the US that I felt truly safe.
Oddly enough, the pony I had when we first met hated him. She'd attack him if she got the chance, it was totally out of character for her.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

She may be scared of him. IDK. If she is, she's not admitting it, but let's all be honest - how easy is it to admit that you made such a terrible mistake and are scared of someone like him, especially to parents who you think may shame you for making such a poor choice.


*sigh*


I've not had a chance to just sit down and talk mother to daughter with her. She worked late last night, we were all exhausted when she finally got home.


I also know this isn't the first guy that's been abusive with her. SHE DID finally admit another boyfriend, back when she was 17, would hit her and leave her bruised, but he did it in places no one would ever see it - back, ribs, hips, buttocks, upper thighs, that sort of thing. He tried to hit her in the parking lot of the local hangout one night and the son of a local police officer took that guy to task, thrashed him pretty good, and that was the last they all saw of him. He left town, moved away, and last she heard he'd ended up going to prison for beating women. 



Again... this just shocks and horrifies me to find out, but I've kept those thoughts as private as I could so she wouldn't think I've judged her.


I found myself in a situation with a boyfriend long ago myself where he was in the early stages of abuse - cutting me off from my friends, demanding to know my every move, getting controlling, smothering me. When I broke up with him, he threatened to kill himself. I gave him the phone number to a suicide hotline. We never spoke again. Years later, I worked with his wife at Wal Mart while daughter was an infant. She would come to work with black eyes, split lips... 



Not one word from me - but I knew I'd dodged a horrible bullet. IDK if I've ever told my Daughter about that - he was a lowlife, but actually cute. He lavished me with flowers and adult/mature attention that I had never received. I was 17 and he nearly destroyed my life. I got lucky.


I hope I can get time to just sit and talk to her, and get her to open up to me and hopefully then she'll be receptive to advice and my warnings. Otherwise? I just don't know... and its leaving me exhausted emotionally. 



I need horse therapy. *sigh*


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

yes . .. horse therapy.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

tinyliny said:


> yes . .. horse therapy.


I got a little over the weekend. We were frazzled and worn out, daughter was gone to Dallas, Grandbaby was staying with her granma in Allen/Plano/McKinney...whatever... we worked on finishing off a rent house we own to get it ready to rent... Texas Granma called daughter, who had tickets for the Turnpike Troubadours Sat. night... told her Grandbaby was upset and crying all night, please come get and get her before noon because she had a hair appointment. Alternatively, could someone drop everything and come get her and meet her in Sherman, TX, an hour away.... but do so RIGHT NOW so she could still burn back to McKinney or whatever and get her hair done.

We refused. Uhm. No. You don't get to volunteer then bail when it's not as fun as you thought it would be. Daughter was in tears, tickets non-refundable, will Mimi or Papa (My nearly 70 year old parents) come get her. 

No. Texas Granma needs to get a dose of being a grandma, not a grandma when it's fun and cool and convenient.

In fairness, I think grandbaby is old enough now to realize she doesn't know Texas Grandma, who no matter how nice and how much she tries, is still not Yaya (me) and she's not home. I'd prefer to see more getting together and doing things with her and grandbaby so we're there, and letting grandbaby get comfortable with the other side of her family she rarely sees, but it is what it is. I told daughter to stop this insanity, that baby is old enough now to feel separation anxiety. She feels abandoned.

Back to the drama - solution was: Baby Daddy had to come get her and keep her all weekend. Apparently - he was 'in' and hadn't told anyone. His mother knew, told him to come get baby.

Baby is now back home, back on schedule with everyone she knows. 

Still haven't had an opportune moment to sit down and have a grown up, gentle talk with Daughter.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Emotional abuse is a very difficult thing to recognize from the inside. The narcissists are very convincing. Plus(we see this with horses, too), women think they can “save” them, change them, make them whole again. 

I went through this with my DMIL....in her middle 60’s.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

greentree said:


> women think they can “save” them, change them, make them whole again.


Saw something on Facebook that went something like this: 

If he's not wearing diapers,
You can't change him. 

Truth.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I was in the kitchen, doing dishes and had dinner on. He was in the living room, sitting in Hub's recliner. Daughter was BIG pregnant, sitting on the couch. He was yaking about something, she gave him an absent Uh Huh... sure... and I heard him SNAP his fingers at her, super loud, and say: You better effing be looking at ME when I'm talking to you.


I would have told him "You better be effing careful for what you wish for, my aim is better when I'm looking". I guess that comes with age. 


She's young so it's hard to be mean like that even when someones being mean to you. I used to be like that when I was younger. Now, no second chances when someone wants to act like that. I don't care how sorry they are.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Saw something on Facebook that went something like this:
> 
> If he's not wearing diapers,
> You can't change him.
> ...


Ha ha, I"m going to remember that one.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

LoriF said:


> I would have told him "You better be effing careful for what you wish for, my aim is better when I'm looking". I guess that comes with age.
> 
> 
> She's young so it's hard to be mean like that even when someones being mean to you. I used to be like that when I was younger. Now, no second chances when someone wants to act like that. I don't care how sorry they are.


I think people like him count on the shock and the hurt it causes for that behavior to work in their favor. Then over time, it becomes routine, and it gradually escalates. It never worked on me, I was very... reactive.... when challenged like that. I still am. My husband famously says he'd never try that with me because at some point - he has to sleep.

I know this is thread drift but.... I will never forget working at a small, local burger joint in HS and college, my boss was a 1st Responder. We're at work, the shift was usually small and that day it was just he and I. His pager went off, a medical emergency just blocks away. He wasn't a 1st Responder for THAT town, the one 'next door', but given the close proximity and the local group's poor history on response times, he went anyway.

After the ambulance and come and gone, he returned. He was chuckling his fool head off.

He said the house they'd been called to was occupied by two 80s year olds - husband and wife. Wife showed signs of previous facial injuries. HUSBAND was tied hand and foot to the bed. 

She had tied him spread eagle, hands and feet, to the bed while he was passed out drunk. She'd shuffled outside, filed a white cotton tube sock full of gravel from the driveway.... had calmly shuffled back inside... and commenced to wuppin him with that sock full of rocks. She didn't quit until he was screaming for mercy. Then she called the Sheriff's office (We didn't have 911 at the time) and said: I was tired of that SOB beating me! He's beat me for 60 years and I've had enough of him! Take me to jail!

They didn't take her to jail btw. The did take HIM to the hospital though. Best we know, he never touched her again, for however long they had left to live a natural life.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> We refused. Uhm. No. You don't get to volunteer then bail when it's not as fun as you thought it would be. Daughter was in tears, tickets non-refundable, will Mimi or Papa (My nearly 70 year old parents) come get her.
> 
> No. Texas Granma needs to get a dose of being a grandma, not a grandma when it's fun and cool and convenient.



Our children usually do the "if they cry or they're being difficult just call and we'll come get them". Um, no. I raised you just fine and you weren't perfect, so I'm pretty sure I can handle your child without you intervening. Of course, most of the time, they act better for us than they do for their parents.  


I'm sure it is confusing for the baby since she doesn't spend that much time with her father or his family. But, if they stick around, even just a little, unfortunately she'll have to get somewhat used to it.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

@AtokaGhosthorse All I can say is "Words don't teach"

My sister passed away back in 2005. Her daughters were 18, 16, and 14. I pretty much became mom when that happened. 

It was pretty traumatic for them as my sister was young (43) and the middle girl came home from school and found her mom drowned in the pool. She had a seizure and no one was home to save her. The girl just held her mom up above water screaming until the neighbor jumped the fence and helped pull her out but she was already gone. I'll have to say that this was not there first trauma in life by any means but I don't really want to go into all of that. It was the worst.

Now, I didn't finish raising them because their dad stepped in complete with the evil stepmother. I'm going to be gentle on him because he did love them very much and still does but he just didn't know how to be a dad, he wanted to continue being there friend like he always had been. Then add the evil stepmother into the mix. Nothing against stepmothers as my own stepmom was the best ever and I still love her tremendously. They were at my house quite a bit throughout this time but not living here.

When the SSI stopped for them, they were asked to leave and guess where they came? Of course, Aunti Lori. 

They have all gone through their trials and tribulations and in and out of this house so many times I've lost count. One after the other they have all finally found a place in life where they are happy and content. It feels good to see all three of them doing well, finally. Only in hind sight have they said to me that they should have listened or I was right. 

To be honest, if they had it all to do over again, they still wouldn't listen to me because "Words don't teach"


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Kriva said:


> Our children usually do the "if they cry or they're being difficult just call and we'll come get them". Um, no. I raised you just fine and you weren't perfect, so I'm pretty sure I can handle your child without you intervening. Of course, most of the time, they act better for us than they do for their parents.
> 
> 
> I'm sure it is confusing for the baby since she doesn't spend that much time with her father or his family. But, if they stick around, even just a little, unfortunately she'll have to get somewhat used to it.



You know, I've had SO many people I know and like approach me and ask what it's like, us being grandparents and I can be so excited about all the fun things - especially NOW that she's 1 (Tomorrow!) and getting so animated, but also very interactive, she's just so darn fun to be around, and such a happy child - and someone will always invariably say:

I LOVE being a grandma/grandpa! I can load them up on sugar and send them home! or When they get sick or cranky, I can send them home! or I get to have fun with them, then send them home.


The implication being when kids are tired, cranky, need a bath, need a nap, need their britches changed, when they're teething, sick, or generally unpleasant, just send them home.


I don't get that mentality. I'm maybe sounding judgy here, but no one in my family is like this. My husband's grandparents and great grandparents helped raise him. My greats were of the Nothing to do with Me variety and very elderly anyway by the time I came along, so I wasn't close to them, or my mother's parents because they were estranged and lived in other states... but dad's parents? They helped raise my brother and I, and they didn't bail when it was time to roll up sleeves and do work. My parents are right there helping with grandbaby now.



We're not bailing and shoving her off on someone else ourselves just because it's inconvenient or she's teething and puking. We plan our date nights around daughter's schedule, we give her a heads up if we're going to be gone a long weekend so she can find a sitter and make work arrangements... the BABY is our first consideration, and everything else revolves around raising her, not fobbing her off when we're tired or she's crabby.


I don't get Grandparents at Convenience. Part of me says: Must be nice; part of me is glad to be passing down the legacy of love and Stick it Out I inherited from my own Ma and Pa.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

*@Lori*F - you are absolutely right. I still have to have a talk with her, I want her to know this isn't right, to let him treat her like this, and that for her daughter's sake, she needs to step up and be brave, but at the end of the day, I can't change her mind or make her do anything. She's going to have to learn.


In the meantime, if she won't be an advocate and strong female role model for my granddaughter, I **** sure will be. My husband, my son, and my dad are having to be her strong male role models, so yep. I'll step into the female role, and honestly my mother, for all her oddities, can too.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> You know, I've had SO many people I know and like approach me and ask what it's like, us being grandparents and I can be so excited about all the fun things - especially NOW that she's 1 (Tomorrow!) and getting so animated, but also very interactive, she's just so darn fun to be around, and such a happy child - and someone will always invariably say:
> 
> I LOVE being a grandma/grandpa! I can load them up on sugar and send them home! or When they get sick or cranky, I can send them home! or I get to have fun with them, then send them home.
> 
> ...


I would love to get my hands on enough money to buy a large tract of acreage. The big part of this dream is to have the whole family living on it. Our own houses far enough apart to live our own lives but close enough to be able to work together. The biggest benny would be to my middle nieces kids because the whole village can raise them. I just think that would be really cool for them. She lives in Wisconsin with her three kids and her husband but often she wishes that she were closer to all of us.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> *@Lori*F - you are absolutely right. I still have to have a talk with her, I want her to know this isn't right, to let him treat her like this, and that for her daughter's sake, she needs to step up and be brave, but at the end of the day, I can't change her mind or make her do anything. She's going to have to learn.
> 
> 
> In the meantime, if she won't be an advocate and strong female role model for my granddaughter, I **** sure will be. My husband, my son, and my dad are having to be her strong male role models, so yep. I'll step into the female role, and honestly my mother, for all her oddities, can too.


I hear you, your mama and you have to say something. I ran my mouth plenty with my girls. And besides someone has to be the advocate for that precious little one. just don't get too angry with your daughter. I believe that for the most part, everyone is doing the best that they can with what they have to work with. Many of us have mental or emotional blocks that are not seen that hold us back from true happiness and caring for ourselves.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

WOW. What a piece of crap, and that's not what I really want to say.

I've met some guys like him when I was dating, actually my ex from 9yrs ago was pretty controlling, and tried to talk to me like I was a dog or something. Turned from verbal, to physical abuse. I eventually stopped tolerating it & now I wouldn't settle for that at ALL, my current man treats me so well and is not narcissistic or abusive, in any way shape or form.
I was single for 8-9yrs after my ex, & while I went on dates, I got stronger & knew my worth. Being alone can really teach you a lot, & make you strong. It helped me a ton being single for that long.

It can be hard to get out of that rut, but I hope she will find that she is worth more than that & gets some self-esteem, as her daughter does need a good role model. At least her daughter has you guys though, you are right - if she can't be a good role model, then at least you will be. 

& she better stay far away from him. It's only going to get worse. But, it does sound like she allows him to talk to her that way, like she is submissive to him. Sounds like he manipulates her, & knows he can get away with it.

I am very glad you stood your ground with him. I honestly think his daughter is way better off without him. He probably won't ever change. Your daughter will soon realize this I hope, that NOT having him around is actually a good thing. 
She needs to step up & forget about him, as hard as it may be, & concentrate on her daughter. 
Since she has a baby with him, she may have wishful thinking, like 'maybe he will change' or 'maybe he won't always be like this' but that won't happen, trust me. He will not change. She deserves someone who is a real man, & I'm sure she doesn't even wanna date anyone right now, but still - in time, she will realize she deserves better.

She should get full custody, I hope that can be arranged somehow. But she needs to figure that out herself. It may take awhile for her. It sounds like she's wrapped up in him.

I know it's frustrating. He's a little boy, not a man. Anyway, good for you though for helping, although I know grandparents don't get a lot of rights, if any.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

I have posted on here before about spoiling the grandbabies then sending them home to their parents.

But I was awake at 1 am when the month old woke up wanting feed and stayed awake while daughter feed him and layed him back down to go back to sleep. I was awake at 5 when he again woke up to eat. While she was feeding him and put him back in the crib I was making coffee then he wanted to stay up so I told her to go get him and I held and played with him for about 40 minutes then he took his binky and I held close and hummed him until he feel back to sleep and was able to be put back in the portable crib while daughter and me talked and drank coffee till she had to wake the older ones up so she could take them to school. (Daughter showed up right before dark because her furnace quit working and they stayed the night and furnace didn't get fixed until 9:30 this morning and she had to be home for the repairman.) 

So yea I use the grandparents jokes. just like I tell people I wish I could have had the grandbabies first. They are a lot more fun. 

I have 1-9yr old 3-8yr olds and the month old baby, plus 3 grand kids in college and a 14yr old those 4 never lived close to me. But all except the month old me and my wife (RIP) used to watch all of them when they were little sometimes all at once and we watched them all take their first steps before their parents did. 

Now I am sorry for all the trouble some are going through and I pray that solutions can be found quickly. But to paint with a roller when you need a trim brush is unfair. And I do not intent to make anybody mad and If I do I sincerely apologize.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

my mine was working to fast as I forgot 1-4yr old and the newest foster child a 2yr old last Nov. now 3yrs old.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

@*RegalCharm* CONGRATS!


And... there's a difference between the old jokes and the people that MEAN IT. I can usually tell the difference and IDK if it's a newer thing or what, but I'm finding more people MEAN IT than not these days.

I mean, THIS is why I confess to feeling like the day she told us she was pregnant, she put a rope around our necks and threw a boat anchor overboard. Because we knew we would never, could never, be that type of grandparent, the casual sort, and we felt... cheated... out of the last few years we'd have left before grandbabies arrived. 

Ah well. Here we are now.

She's 1 today. I guess we'll keep her. 

I MAY have a chance to talk to daughter this weekend. She's off work Saturday, that's the day of the b-day party, but it's in the evening. So I should have all day to gently approach the topic.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> And... there's a difference between the old jokes and the people that MEAN IT. I can usually tell the difference and IDK if it's a newer thing or what, but I'm finding more people MEAN IT than not these days.
> 
> I mean, THIS is why I confess to feeling like the day she told us she was pregnant, she put a rope around our necks and threw a boat anchor overboard. Because we knew we would never, could never, be that type of grandparent, the casual sort, and we felt... cheated... out of the last few years we'd have left before grandbabies arrived.
> 
> ...



Anytime I tell people how wonderful grandchildren are, I also get the response about sending them home when they're being bad. I usually just go along with it, because it's really difficult to describe the feelings toward a grandchild. They are part of you, just like your own child is, but somehow the stress of having a child around isn't the same as it was when my kids were little. I don't know if it's age, wisdom, or what...but I have so much more patience with the grandbabies than I ever did with my own kids. 


When my daughter (the one I mentioned before) was trying to make it on her own with the two kids we were constantly watching them. She had a job where she worked weekends and we would alternate having the grandkids on the weekends with my ex-husband and his wife. The only times I got upset with my daughter was when she would get off work early but then not be in a hurry to get her kids from us. I get that she wanted to have some time to hang out with her friends or enjoy her time alone, but her kids are her responsibility. I would get the kids on Friday when I got off work and have them until Sunday afternoon. I had to explain to her that I understood she needed a weekend, but so did I. I was there to help when she needed it, take the kids when we wanted to see them or go somewhere with them, and sometimes play "babysitter" when she wanted to go out with her friends. But, she chose to have children (intentionally or not), and that meant her days of partying whenever she felt like it were over. She really did quite well, considering the circumstances, and I wasn't too hard on her about it all...but I didn't make it too easy either. 


We currently have 6 grandkids with a 7th on the way. They are wonderful!!! Way better than any of their parents :lol:


However...we have been known to let them eat some cake (and maybe a little more cake) before they go home. And the oldest - now almost 10 - has loved to sit outside with me in the mornings drinking coffee and just hanging out. Her mom gave up years ago trying to tell us how to raise her kids when they were in our care. If my first grandchild wants to drink coffee with me I'm not telling her No. (she doesn't drink much and it's mostly sugar and creamer anyway...don't turn me in to the authorities please).


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

We had the real-deal Lucille flu over the weekend. Not just a glancing blow, so that was round 2 and this one got us all down.


So hence my absence. I've had an epiphany today and I'm covered over at work, burning midnight oil after missing two whole days today - but I will return to this thread with an update and said epiphany.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

which definition of epiphany did you experience. :Angel:

1. a moment when you suddenly feel that you understand, or suddenly become conscious of, something that is very important to you 2. a powerful religious experience 3. a Christian holy day in January (traditionally 6 January in Western Christianity) 

We will cross out number 3 as that one is past us. So that leaves 2 choices and :shrug:. I am favoring #1. :smile::thumbsup:


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

So here it is. I had it pointed out to me, after tolerating yet one more of my husband's rage rants about Unexpected Cow Drama (Prolapse, calving, chaos, and the flu, all at once) that I tolerate his rage fits... there's not a lot of difference between his fits About Things to Me, and Daughter's ex's actual verbal abuse. The line is very thin, very fine.

She's learned it from me. She's not seeing the difference in DEGREE of what's going on.

So, on our way to meet my parents for lunch, I am explaining to my husband look, you gotta stop this. If you want my help, change your tone. But he also likes to make wise cracks about me in front of our lunch friends, all mostly men, all his friends first. I respect him enough to not wade off into him in front of them. Call me woke if you want... but I'm catching him mansplaining things more and more, cutting me off to tell me what I SHOULD do, not listening to me, about whatever it is, all the way through. He knows best. I just shut my trap, let him mansplain, and do what I want... but my daughter doesn't SEE that. She sees me taking it.

I caught him four times trying to mansplain to me on the way to lunch. I called him out every time.

We get to lunch. 

My dad, an old school misogynist, notorious for belittling my mom in public from time to time, does it today at lunch. He tries to throw me in there too by reference. USUALLY we all just ignore him and move on for risk of him trying to talk over us and getting louder and more embarrassing... but today I didn't.

I stopped him very quickly into his tale, and said: Let me stop you there, hoss. THIS is why my daughter tolerates HIM talking to her like that. You are disrespecting your wife - my mother, her grandmother - and you are belittling her, and me both. It stops now. Right there is where she's learned it from.... My daughter learned it from me and you're the one doing it dad.

I looked at Hubs and said: My dad is your bad example for the day. When it's you and you're behaving badly, I will call you out for it, so you best start thinking ahead and respecting your wife more, because your daughter learned it from us.

Lunch... was tense at times, but good, tbh. For once, my dad recognized the trickle down of his behavior, that no, it's not cool to make your wife the constant butt of your jokes or call her out for being ignorant to things like... bulldozers and oil changes. She never called you out for not knowing how to sew your own buttons back on your pants and ridiculed your for it, sir.

Now that they both see a woman tolerating it from someone who is not only a jackwagon to women, but also has no intention of being a breadwinner or stable (My father's redeeming quality and we never felt unloved, but that's another story for another time), suddenly, the game has changed.

I told them it stops and it stops now. Not for my sake, not for my mothers, not even for my daughter's, though I hope we can undo the damage - it's for my granddaughter.

The flu flattened me last week - but I've got the fight back in me and one thing about it, at least I'm well rested from being home, flat on my back, sick as a dog.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Also, I'm about to take what I've learned from horses and apply it to my entire household.


If you try to teach or discipline while they're emotional and giving you one eye, if you push them too high emotionally, nothing gets done, everyone is an emotional hot mess.


This weekend I've told them all we're having a family sit down.


This is but one topic that's going to be sorted out. If I have to, I'll do a powerpoint presentation.

I'm going to get my husband, my son, and my daughter, all giving me two eyes. We're going to be sorting out the chaos that my home has become, starting from 10 too many Kill Pen cows that prolapse to my daughter refusing to get a real job that works with college hours. I'm not my granddaughter's mother. She is. She's gonna get a real job and have to grow up.

I'm done with a whole lot of stuff, there will be a house cleaning this weekend.


And it all comes back to horses. LOL Learning to handle a 1000 lb toddler, haul them in a trailer, and be confident, fair, firm, consistent, and independent, has cooked something up in me. It's time to apply it to my LIFE, not just my ponies.... and it may mean I enter the ring with a lunging whip if that's what it takes.


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## JoBlueQuarter (Jan 20, 2017)

I can't like those two posts enough! This is definitely a step in the right direction - and I good big step at that! Seriously, you're awesome, and I'm sure this'll help your daughter more than any long talks - she needs to see it, not hear it. Love the fact that you're applying techniques you'd use on horses; there really isn't a big difference between equine/human and human/human communication, I find.

Way to go


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

TY... it took another HFer to point out to me where my daughter was learning it... and just this morning. It's like that moment when the light bulb came on with Trigger. Everything changed in my thought process. My husband tries to micromanage everything around him as a way to control chaos and stay organized and it's trickling into micromanaging me, and jokes that used to be funny can get beat like a dead horse and ha ha. So funny, not... Raging at chaos around him, while talking to me, while not direct abuse of me, is still abusive. It's to the DEGREE where the difference lies. My daughter doesn't see me walking away because I'm going to hit him over the head with a bat if I don't... she seems me stoically trying to keep the peace at all costs.

We bicker... but we don't FIGHT in front of the kids. She doesn't know that in my time and in my way, I take the gloves off, and here lately, I've just been too tired, too wore down, so I've not said a lot about how her own father behaves.

I gave up on my dad a long time ago, but she's learned it from seeing him talk to my mom like that, from me tolerating her dad ranting and raging and being rude when he's stressed.

It stops now. It's disrespectful and the raging about chaos (Like when a stupid skin and bones bremer cow prolapses WOO fun!) does not make me want to help him. I walk away and let him struggle on his own, stew in his own juices.

Time to tell him to knock it the hell off and give me two eyes. Think with your two eyes, not the one eye response.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

@AtokaGhosthorse Yes! Excellent posts and I stand to applaud you! I will be re-reading both posts as there is so much there to reflect on and absorb! Well done!:cheers:


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

TY @*Walkamile* .


One more thing. I told her while we were laid up sick, and binging on Thor movies Monday, that she needs to not let him talk to her like that, that we'd discuss it more when she was open to listening to me, and I could talk about it without getting angry and making her feel bad instead of empowered.

She said: But mom, there's not really anything I can do about it.

My answer:

Oh honey. You are not a captive audience! HANG UP THE PHONE. It's simple as a swipe of the thumb. Just. hang. up. Give him a warning if you want to be nice: Change your tone or I'm going to have to go.... but don't let him make you believe you don't have the power to hang up YOUR phone.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

It is that simple. I told my ex, when separated that very thing and did it. It only took once for him to realize the rules had just changed...forever!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

:clap:.. I just read the whole thread, all the comments and dialog with the culmination self analysis...spot on.
:bowwdown:...I would like any and all of you in my corner if ever I needed to fight for a reason and cause..
:hide:...this would be me now that that epiphany has occurred. 
Hide you bet I would while I learned to change my ways to healthier way of being, contributing and being supportive of each and every other family member..
It will take time, old dogs _*can*_ learn new tricks...

Hugs for support for the coming weekend meeting and eye-opening this is going to be for all...
A little dose of what is to come was shed today...
A new beginning for all...
Let the healing begin, the new leaf unfurl and thrive in a positive environment...
I'm glad you took the time to unload such a heavy burden..and trusted us to share it with.
*I know I learned some things, more than just some things reading what all shared...that is never a bad thing to occur.*
:hug:...offered as many as you need and with gusto behind them...and staring you square in the face 2-eyes showing.
Thank-you for the enlightening thread...



_hlg._


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

You're making me very proud to be an Oklahoma woman and your friend! Good JOB!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> You're making me very proud to be an Oklahoma woman and your friend! Good JOB!


Yeaahhh, well I'll tell off on you. It was YOU that pointed it out, and BOOM. 

I know how to fix this now and how to take this bull by the horns. 

So, Thank YOU for seeing what I could not. And proud to call you a friend as well!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Yeaahhh, well I'll tell off on you. It was YOU that pointed it out, and BOOM.
> 
> I know how to fix this now and how to take this bull by the horns.
> 
> So, Thank YOU for seeing what I could not. And proud to call you a friend as well!


It's always easier to be on the outside lookin' in.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

@AtokaGhosthorse 
I wish you much success in your heart to heart meeting this weekend. I applaud your strength and courage.

Now on a lighter side. Your grand daughter is beautiful, babies and puppies just seem to go together.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

RegalCharm said:


> @*AtokaGhosthorse*
> I wish you much success in your heart to heart meeting this weekend. I applaud your strength and courage.
> 
> Now on a lighter side. Your grand daughter is beautiful, babies and puppies just seem to go together.



Thank you, Regal, for your kind words. 



She has been an absolute joy to have, and the joy is only increasing with each day. My daughter actually cried when little britches turned 1. Me, I celebrated. I've never wept for the inevitable passing of the baby and the acquisition of a child, then a teenager, then a young man or a young woman when it came to my own kids. Each stage has been a joyful experience - though there have been days I wanted to tie them to a tree and leave them... not gonna lie, but on the whole, it's been a helluva ride. Never a tear shed for the year behind us.



I'm loving that grandbaby is living with us and we can experience her day to day accomplishments and I cannot wait until she's big enough to tag along on rides and get her legs under her to run and play in the yard. She has a HUGE, sparkly personality and I think it would break my heart if they moved out now.


(I just want m'girl to grow up a little bit more and pull her fair share in the traces but yeah, that's another story too)


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I love, love love these posts. Go you!!  Always have to stick up for yourself, enough is enough. And horses and humans do go hand-in-hand. It is so true. They teach us a lot, about ourselves too.

This is great. I hope she does learn to HANG UP the phone, & stands up for herself. It's super important. Gotta scare 'em, can't have him thinking 'I can talk to her however I want, she won't do anything about it'. Scare him, make him think 'oh crap...' lol.

Love this thread. Your posts are spot-on!!!


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Thank you, Regal, for your kind words.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, babies are a blessing in disguise LOL It is a lot of fun watching them grow up. After she starts walking really good her bravery will cause a few white hairs to appear on your head. LOL Toddlers have no fear. And in the terrible 2 stage they learn what buttons to push and by age 3 they have mastered the use of the buttons. Yea Babies are fun.

But growing older means no more formula to buy (more money left in the pocket book.. potty broke means more money left also. (formula and diapers are the biggest expenses for a baby) 

And hopefully your daughter will find a good man who appreciates her and treats her with the love she deserves. And provides a great loving father figure to your little britches. He must love horses also is a requirement .


I do not know you personally , only through your words. But this much I have gathered about You. You are a Great wife, Mother, and Grandma. Your are smart and hard working for what is important in you life.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

@*RegalCharm* You have me verklempt... and seriously - I'm not bragging here - but this isn't just 'me'. This is the legacy my paternal grandparents left me.

Legacy. Isn't that an odd word? You can look it up in Websters and not understand it on a real level until you're living it.


THIS is the legacy they've handed down - Family is what comes first and being strong to keep it together is just what we do.


And yes, Must Love Horses is a requirement. More importantly - The horses must love HIM. I'll listen to them next time if they're hating someone.


As an aside - when discussing reasons to keep Oops, our wee 3 year old Filly, I pointed out she'll be the perfect size for a kid to ride from the age of 5 or 6, through their mid-teens. By the time Shortstack outgrows her physically, there may be many many more grandbabies to ride. (Oops should top out at just under 14hh)

Hubs said: Do you really think her momma (Daughter) is going to ACTUALLY take her riding instead of just talking about it?

Me: Her momma may just talk about it, but Yaya (me) is going to have a new riding buddy. Yaya will take her!


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

Sounds like a good plan for the little one to have her own pony. I am sure the grand daughter will love it. 
Yes. the old European family's always believed in family first. Which I find sadly lacking in todays families.

Your use of German words has me checking the dictionary for their meanings LOL. That is a good thing: broadens my brain cells. LOL.

LOL I like this. Future suitors will have to pass the horse test before dating your daughter. :cowboy: this means you can stay for awhile and this :falloff: means good-bye, so-long, I will call and let you know. Or as I would say a long time ago. Di Di Mau. ( Borrowed from Vietnamese ði ði mau (“get lost!”)


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Well, she dodged and stalled for four days. I told her come Sunday, her day off, we were going to have a family day where we all worked on cleaning up the house, cook a family dinner together, and we were going to have a Two Eyed Talk, ALL of us.


Hubs already knew what issues I had after that lunch with my parents last week - his attitude has been markedly better. I understand frustrations dealing with cattle and chaos and how focused he gets on Git er Dun, but he simply MUST slow down and change his tone. Every word out of his mouth is fine, it's HOW it says it that's condescending and belittling to those who don't know.... including his daughter.


Anyway. She stalled, finally came home and we all four talked about 8 pm last night.


Made it clear we were not attacking her, we wanted to talk to her as adults and equals.


Made it clear she doesn't HAVE to talk to him. She can hang that phone up any time. There's no law or rule that says she has to sit there and let him talk to her that way. For her sake, for her daughter's sake, she has to stop it.


I told her, look. I don't know if you've learned it from me, because I don't snap back at your dad, or mimi (my mother) because of how papa (my dad) talks to her and about her, but don't tolerate it just to keep the peace. Both men in our lives, my dad, her dad, are prone to crappy behavior BUT. They are daddies first. They are bread winners, they struggle, they fail, they have their flaws, but they are TRYING, and even as ugly as they've acted, it pales in comparison to what she's tolerating. She's tolerating his abuse, and worse, he's barely paying child support. He's not trying to better himself, he's not trying to be a daddy. All he's doing is talking to her like this to make him feel like he's something. He's demanding her respect and he's not willing to EARN it. He expects it to be given to him and coupled with his fragile, but enormous ego, he's a wife beater waiting to happen.


I told I KNOW it hurts. I KNOW you want him to be a part of her life. I KNOW you feel betrayed and lost, and angry because he promised you forever, and he turned out to be a POS... but stop chasing him. Stop trying to make him be a part of her life (Daughter is the one that calls HIM and initiates the face time, 99% of the time). Stop trying to make a daddy out of him. He's not good for either of you - let him go. It's his loss for not getting to know this tiny, amazing, shiny little person you two created. Stop trying to get him involved in her life, because what I'm seeing ahead is him trying to grind her under just like he does you, and no one deserves that, but it would be a tragedy to see him destroy this little girl's joy and confidence because of his tiny *male member word here* and his massive ego.


Also explained she HAS to be more selective about her dates and the male company she's keeping. I think she's convinced herself she can do no better and snapperhead hasn't helped her. But Hubs and I both told her you MUST start thinking 10 years down the road - who do you want in your life once you've gotten your degree, once you have a real job paying good money? Who do you want as an EQUAL PARTNER and a Daddy for her? What kind of man do you want in her life? Because that man, that you choose to marry and be a partner with, is going to be her daddy. You're not just looking for a good husband material and father to his own children guy now. You've got a top priority requirement: Can he be a good daddy for HER?


It was a long talk, no high emotions, no cutting anyone off or interrupting - that was strictly forbidden. Let everyone speak and speak freely.


As far as day to day issues we're having as a family - I'm drawing up a list of chores that need to be done daily, every other day, weekly, and monthly. There will be a sign up line. If no one volunteers for a rotation, I will be assigning chores. If Son doesn't do them, no money for gas that week - his truck can sit or he can spend his own very meager pay check on going and running. If he can't get off his **** and help outside in the evenings putting out hay, feeding live stock and picking up the yard, etc, then he can baby sit babygirl and I'll do it... but he's going to get to wash laundry and dishes too. 



Daughter HAS to get a day job - no more of this minimum wage slinging pizza from 5 to close and every weekend day business. She needs a job during day care hours so we all can enjoy grandbaby in the evenings and it's not getting dumped on me. I have outside stuff that MUST be done with the weather turning, like get the pool running, BUILD A BABY GATE to the pool deck, get the veggies planted, the flower beds cleaned out, the patio cleaned up (Its my living room and kitchen from April to November), get the hot tub running, work with the horses, etc. No one else can do those things. They can help, but I'm the one that knows what's going on there.


She agreed to tell her manager day jobs or she's hitting the road. She's saved up enough money to be unemployed for three to four months and still pay her car payment and insurance. By summer, she will have enough college hours completed to apply for an internship and a graveyard shift job at the glass plant or the steel mill. They work four on, three off, three on, four off, long graveyard shifts, but that would be easier on us - she gets baby to sleep, goes to work. We get baby up, take her to day care or preschool, she gets home about the time we leave, sleeps while everyone is gone, gets up, goes gets baby girl, we're all around in the evenings until bed time, rinse repeat. That is in fact her plan. I literally gave her 24 hours Saturday to get a Plan and have it ready for Sunday.


Now I've got to hold everyone's feet to the fire, including my own. If we're taking this bull by the horns, there's no halfway here. It's time to have a spring cleaning in terms of what we're doing, how we treat one another, how we view 'home' and what we're doing when we're there.


I will note: During the chaos of helping Hubs and Friend Who Gave us Supes build a temporary cattle trap, chutes, and sort calves from cows and load them - not once did Hubs get spun out and start talking crappy to me like he usually does.


In fact, when one older BIG calf jumped the panels and nearly climbed up me while I was holding the rope to the trailer gate, and HIS friend yelled GRAB THAT ***** BY THE TAIL AND DON'T LET HER CLIMB THE ****** OUT! He shook his head at me and told Friend: She's nose to nose with it. How you expect her to grab the tail when the tail is pointed at YOU and she's trying to not get climbed on? Then he laughed about it.



Indeed, good sir. Indeed. I was at the wrong end of the calf for tail grabbing. I just got out of her way. LOL


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Just found the child support check he wrote her... a mere 100.00 check... bounced today.


We're covering it - because that's not her fault. I'm going to be encouraging her to get with the Oklahoma Child Support Enforcement offices and have them get formal documents in place.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Read through this thread- what a ride. Just goes to show you how much horses, kids, and grandkids can teach you about yourself. 



I hope your daughter really takes this to heart. It's something I've had to learn about men over the past 10 years or so - if they can't give as well as they get, I have no use for them. If they can't learn as well as they teach, I have no use for them. It sounds like baby-daddy is a man who never was shown that you can't ask for respect if you aren't willing to give it in the first place. Those are the first ones to cry and complain that a woman is refusing to be stepped on. 



While I'm not religious, I label those people lost souls. 



It's his loss. He has a wonderful opportunity to be a caring father and leave a legacy of love behind him, but he won't see that until it's far too late. Good riddance to him. 



I'm proud of you for seeing the impact, and doing something about it. That's a hard-won realization for anyone, especially someone who has been living that way for many years. 


I know people use "woke" as a joke, but being awake and aware is the first step in changing things for the better.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Just found the child support check he wrote her... a mere 100.00 check... bounced today.
> 
> 
> We're covering it - because that's not her fault. I'm going to be encouraging her to get with the Oklahoma Child Support Enforcement offices and have them get formal documents in place.


I don't blame you for covering the $100, it's not like it's a huge amount anyhow. However, I would do it ONCE and be real clear that she MUST get with the OK Chile Support Enforcement offices and get them on his case. Cleaning up his mess once is fine, but he has more than demonstrated that he's fine with someone else carrying his load of c*p. This can/should be the real first step of daughter standing up on her own 2 feet and facing him down.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I don't blame you for covering the $100, it's not like it's a huge amount anyhow. However, I would do it ONCE and be real clear that she MUST get with the OK Chile Support Enforcement offices and get them on his case. Cleaning up his mess once is fine, but he has more than demonstrated that he's fine with someone else carrying his load of c*p. This can/should be the real first step of daughter standing up on her own 2 feet and facing him down.


Agreed, absolutely, and we've done so.


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## MissLulu (Feb 3, 2019)

Please take this as me saying it gently. But do you think dad would relinquish custody?


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

MissLulu said:


> Please take this as me saying it gently. But do you think dad would relinquish custody?


No. He'd fight just to be a douche. It feeds his ego.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

MissLulu said:


> Please take this as me saying it gently. But do you think dad would relinquish custody?





AtokaGhosthorse said:


> No. He'd fight just to be a douche. It feeds his ego.


First of all @AtokaGhosthorse good you all got together and promised to make life better for all of you.

Maybe he would not be so opposed once he was made to pay the full amount every month and make up the back support he owes. And also the charges for writing bad checks. Your daughter could really hit him where it hurts: in the wallet. And if he is working she might be able to garnish his wages to get what he owes. Most of the time now a days courts are kind of hard on the person who is behind on child support. 


@Mulefeather good to see you.


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