# Potential dressage horse?



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

Looking for my first horse, wanting to do dressage, hopefully reach one day 3rd or 4th level.

What do you think of him? He's 7, but he was started late.
















No conformation pictures, I'm afraid.

Any thoughts?


----------



## jumpingrules92 (Aug 2, 2011)

teamfire said:


> Looking for my first horse, wanting to do dressage, hopefully reach one day 3rd or 4th level.
> 
> What do you think of him? He's 7, but he was started late.
> 
> ...


I watched a few minutes of that video..

Im not a fan. But what is your riding level?

Hes VERY quick. I get that hes green but it almost seems that that rider isn't riding him from the back forward...shes just letting him run through her hands while she hauls on the bit and cranks his head down and tries to make it look pretty.


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

I'm intermediate level, more or less.

Yes, not that impressed with the rider, but what do you think of the horse itself? Potential for dressage, assuming the rest of its training is better done?


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

He has a lot of go and is really rythmic and pretty free throught the back. If you have a good instructor who knows how to work with this kind of "steamroller" horse, then maybe yes. As you can see, he is going through the bit, but ends up behind the vertical, bearing down on the bit. I think correct riding can help this, incorrect riding will make it hard ingrained and you'll be just being dragged around all the time. Do you know how to slow a horse, without pulling back harder? Do you know how to encourage him to reach down and in front of the vertical and lift through? Can you keep his busy mind , well, busy?


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

Certainly do! Plus, I have a really amazing coach is VERY careful on teaching the proper riding aids, particularly of the seat. If there's anything that bothers her, it's busy hands that force a head down for the 'look' but no substance, and working correctly from the back to the front.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well, what does your coach think of this horse? I do like that he's forward, though he is rushing. But at least he has go!


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

Haven't yet shown it to her. Been searching through tons of horses, and her time is valuable, and as I haven't yet decided if it's worth it to pursue...


----------



## MoodIndigo (Oct 18, 2010)

I do like him, though I agree with what everyone else is saying, too.

I love the expression "steamroller horse" to describe him! Well done tinyliny. Lol!

Even though the rider is unimpressive, I do see potential in this horse. He has 3 very nice gaits to work with, and seems to be an easy learner.


----------



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Lateral walk... run away!!!!!!!
His walk is a whisker away from being two beat/lateral, this is very difficult to correct and if he already has the tendency to be lateral, he will likely revert to this whenever he is tense even if you do manage to train it out of him for general work. 
At the end of the video when the rider lets him out a little, the walk does improve, so that is a good sign that you will be able to train it out of him, but as I said, it's likely that he will also want to revert to lateral when tension creeps in.

The trot is 'ok', but I'm not leaping out of my seat yelling "world beater". It will take a lot of work to get him to sit and lighten his forehand. He is running straight through the rider's hands, and Tiny said, "steamrolling". I feel that he has a natural tendency to want to be on his front legs and low in the poll, even without a not so talented rider on board. His hocks aren't brilliant, yes he could dabble in some collection, but I don't feel that this will be his strong point. Though with lots of gymnastic and correct work, he may build the strength to cope with this a little more. 

I think his canter is quite good and he has an uphill tendency if the rider had the skill to show that off, probably his best pace.

I think once he has a decent rider on board he would start to use his back, but in the video he very much looked like a leg mover rather than a back mover. 
I wouldn't recommend this horse as a rider's first horse, as there is a lot of work to be done on re-education and I think he may also be quite hot headed when you put some pressure on him. 
Have a look, show your coach, but he wouldn't be my pick.


----------



## core (Oct 30, 2011)

The lateral walk at the beginning was concerning. I saw at the end, when the rider allowed the horse to relax more, his walk became more 4 beat. However, any time that horse gets stressed or anxious you have more of a chance the horse will have a lateral walk. Depends on the money they want for the horse. If he's cheap, then retraining the horse to not give the lateral walk when anxious/nervous _*might*_ be worth while. 

He looks like he'd be capable, physically, of training through 3rd. Nice canter. His trot in the free jumping video has a lot of expression. He's run off his feet in the trot while the rider cranks his nose in... that's a terrible rider. I'd like to yank her off that horse and ask her what the heck she thinks she's doing.

I didn't see a price for the horse listed anywhere, but I think I would pass on this one. Him getting a late start, the lateral walk, having to retrain him to stay connected on the bit... He has such a long way to go in his training just to be at a solid training level, and he's alredy 7. Plus you'll have to introduce him to all of the same things you'd have to do if he were 4 (first show, first everything). If he has a great personality, and bomb proof type persona, then that would make up for his late start and bad beginning training... but if he's the nervous type, I'd pass. 

Depends on the price. I wouldn't buy him unless I got a _really_ good deal on him. Otherwise, he's just another warmblood of average ability, except he's been started late and trained to run around like a fool while leaning on the bit. Wouldn't be worth the time and effort at full price.


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

Well, this horse is supposed to have super temperament, very willing. Advertised with a 4/10. But haven't personally met him, of course.

She is firm at 5k. Too much? Has been difficult to even find a 'so-so' sort of horse in my area... everyone seems to be jumpers and what few dressage horses are available tend to be at 10k+. I don't mind working with the horse, of course, that's what I most enjoy, seeing a positive change in the horse.


----------



## core (Oct 30, 2011)

teamfire said:


> Well, this horse is supposed to have super temperament, very willing. Advertised with a 4/10. But haven't personally met him, of course.
> 
> She is firm at 5k. Too much? Has been difficult to even find a 'so-so' sort of horse in my area... everyone seems to be jumpers and what few dressage horses are available tend to be at 10k+. I don't mind working with the horse, of course, that's what I most enjoy, seeing a positive change in the horse.


I had the same problems when trying to find a decent horse this past year. Don't give up hope though, and don't settle. In the long run, you need a horse you're going to be happy with for several years.

This is just my opinion... After having your trainer see him, doing a test ride, etc, and IF you still like him, offer them $4,000. Train him through second then sell him to an Adult amateur for a few grand more than you paid for him. 

Just curious, but have you looked at other breeds, or warmblood crosses? There are several in my area that are less than $10k but still very athletic and better trained (and it isn't exactly a dressage mecca here).


----------



## horsemadgirl (Aug 23, 2011)

I think he's lovely! for an English riding horse he's about average speed!


----------



## brackenbramley (May 29, 2011)

I cant help but say this, everyone notes the horse rushing (and i have a steam rollar at home lol) but to me it looks like the rider is rushing the horse leg leg leg and rising faster and faster when he's already not working properly and rushing he doesnt look to me like he's rushing more being rushed IMO ??????? any thoughts??? seriously puzzled???


----------



## brackenbramley (May 29, 2011)

horsemadgirl said:


> I think he's lovely! for an English riding horse he's about average speed!


Sorry but completely disagree with this comment about the speed but totally agree the horse is lovely x


----------



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

horsemadgirl said:


> I think he's lovely! for an English riding horse he's about average speed!


 You're a western rider no? 

The horse is being run onto his front legs, encouraged to hang onto the bit and as a result he HAS to have a very fast tempo to stay upright! This horse is travelling at a much faster tempo than a horse that is in balance, off the forehand and with the rider should be travelling. 
Horsemadgirl, I suggest you watch a few professional dressage riders working their horses to compare the different between their tempo, and this horse's tempo. 

Brackenbramley, yes I agree with you that the rider IS rushing the horse, but it seems to have turned into a viscious circle. The rider initially would have knocked the horse off balance and as a result he has to up his tempo to keep himself upright. The rider is in a very defensive position, and is gripping with her knees and hands, thus has no influence over the horse with her seat and as a result the horse will no come back to a more suitable tempo while this continues. Once a horse has been ridden like this for a long period of time, particualrly at a young age, it is very difficult to retrain. At 7, the horse should be moving freely forward, into a soft contact, poll at the highest point, and commencing collected work.
This horse is a long way behind the 8-ball. 

I was riding a warmblood x tb mare that had been ridden in this manner as a young horse, at 12 she was STILL reverting to running onto the forehand and pulling through the bridle when she got tense. Though a very lovely mare, she was very difficult as if you let her go for even 2 strides, she would be on the forehand and pulling you along like she was pulling a cart. 

For a first horse, why start with something like that when you can pick something that has decent foundations or at least doesn't run itself into the ground. 

As for price - that's why I bought a yearling rather than something established. You can get a horse of the quality you want, for a fraction of the price, but just have to be patient to be able to ride it. Not recomending a youngster for the OP though, but I do feel that if the OP really DOES have enough riding experience, maybe a 4 year old would be more suitable? Nothing too flashy, you don't need spectacular paces to ride high levels, in fact, 3 'good' paces to me is more desirable than spectacular as you have to be able to ride them!


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

So, I went to see him. Cause, he was only an hour away, and it'd at least be a new riding experience.

Turns out he has the most absolutely wonderful temperament. Very, very kind, totally wants to do what you ask of him. Quiet. You couldn't even tell he was a greenie on the ground, such lovely ground manners.

Oh, don't know if I mentioned, when I say green, I do mean pretty green, as in started half a year ago.

Turns out that why he looks rushed in the video is that the trainer's philosophy is that you get them extremely forward right off the start. She said she's not worried about collecting or anything at this point, just wants forward. Anyways, that's her view of things.

I tried him out and he is NOT at all what he looks like in the video. In fact, sometimes I had trouble keeping him going! Still feels on the forehand, but I'm always unsure when trying out a new horse and when being watched by someone unfamiliar, so didn't really work him like I would've with my coach or on my own. He didn't rush with me (like I said, sometimes not forward enough if anything) and didn't feel heavy in my hands at all. 

I'll be getting a video up and see what you guys think. I did notice that he might paddle a bit with one of his front legs. 

The other thing is that the owner has some... interesting ideas. The trainer was pretty upset when she told me that the owner doesn't believe in floating their teeth and she says he needs that done IMMEDIATELY. She also said that, although he's barefoot, he also needs a trim badly. Apparently the owner doesn't want to put a single cent more than she needs to... anyways.

I'll upload a video soon!

In the meantime, here's a bad conformation picture. >.>


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

Here's a vid! 



 Your thoughts???

Please be easy on my riding if you want to critique me: it was the first time riding this horse, I wasn't really thinking hard on myself!


----------



## core (Oct 30, 2011)

teamfire said:


> Here's a vid!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you look great on him, his gaits looked better, and you seem to really like his temperament. If your trainer likes him, go for it. From what you're saying and I read Larceny's add, I'd bet they'd take closer to $4k for him. an owner who won't pay $30 for a trim is someone who can't afford board and training and would be willing to sell him for less.

What did your trainer say about him (other than his teeth issue)?

Good riding. I was expecting a lot worse (new horse, new environment, etc). You ride a lot better than the lady in the first video.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

teamfire said:


> Here's a vid! Larceny - YouTube Your thoughts???
> 
> Please be easy on my riding if you want to critique me: it was the first time riding this horse, I wasn't really thinking hard on myself!


The two of you look far better on this horse than the original rider paired up with him.

I would go for it but try to knock her down in price.


----------



## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

He doesn't even move the same with you on him. You're right, he's still a little on the fore, but sooooo much better. You did a good job riding him. I'd go back and ride him a few more times, make sure you really do click and that he improves with your good riding.


----------



## brackenbramley (May 29, 2011)

i think you look really great together and i really like him x


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

There is something wonky behind, vet check him! The way his confirmation and movement is I don't think he will be able to handle the collection and is most suited to lower level hunters and Dressage to only about first level.
But he's cute and if he vets at 4k he would be a nice horse to train up and sell in a few years. He is not however what I would consider a Dressage prospect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

Hm, what specifically in his conformation or movement don't you like? I'm trying to learn...

Here's a better picture for his hind leg conformation (his trainer is riding in this one, not the best shot)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee408/earthshadows/lar_2_1.jpg

And wonky how??? No one's yet mentioned that in this or another forum either! X_x


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

For me, he is so much better in the second video, but he's still awful long and motoring from the front. 
You can see he dishes slightly with the front, if he toes out on the hind legs? He doesn't look to come down 'straight' to me, thats the best way I can describe it if I'm honest!

He seems lovely, but I have to say I don't pay as much as they want. Its a lot of money for an allrounder, I wouldn't say he has outstanding dressage potential. 

With retraining, a dentist -sigh- and a trim -big sigh- he may turn out lovely for you! It depends on what you want to do, and how far you want to go.

My advice would be check out other horses before you settle, same price, higher price, same age, slightly older. 
I tried out a horse 2k out of my initial price bracket and you could tell the difference. Also, ask your trainer whether the horse is worth the price they're wanting for it.

Good luck though on finding the right one


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

I'm hoping to maybe reach 3rd or 4th level. 

It has been hard, and there's been few horses that I can try out at my maximum budget... Dressage horses are apparently rare here, that fall within my budget. And I've been looking at no specific breed, just any and all that appear!

Seriously, though, anyone in the Vancouver, BC area that wants a jumper... I've passed over some amazing ones!


----------



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Everything happens for a reason, and you will find the right one, or the right one will find you! Chin up though!
You can always look at something like I did with Duffy, something that needs TLC and work, but in the long run will make a super duper horse. Have you tried widening your search, or using a well known, non dodgy dealer in your area to help you find one?


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

I'm trying to keep my search as open as possible, and I've even gone to see a horse over 4 hours away already! Maybe I just came in to look just at the wrong time, hahaha.

But no, haven't really thought of using a dealer at this point.


----------



## brackenbramley (May 29, 2011)

Dont give up you'll be so glad and happy when u find the right one and u will know!!!!!! can u all explain the american levels how they would be comparable to here in UK ( preliminary etc ) thanks x


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

Just did some quick googling, this is what I got:

Intro – (walk & trot tests) 
Prelim – (working trot & canter) 
Novice – (medium walk, trot & canter, counter canter ,rein back) 
Elementary – (leg yield, collected trot & canter, simple changes) 
Medium – (shoulder-in, half pass, extended & collected walk, extended trot & canter, travers, half walk pirouettes, 
Advanced Medium – (flying change) 
Advanced (4 times changes) 

Intro - walk/trot 
Training Level - walk, trot, canter 
First Level - walk, trot, canter, lengthening trot & canter, leg yield, beginning of counter canter 
Second Level - collected trot & canter, medium trot & canter, shoulder in, travers, renvers, rein-back, simple changes, turn on haunches, counter canter 
Third Level - collected, medium, and extended gaits, half-pass, flying changes, plus the stuff from Second Level 
Fourth Level - basically same stuff as Third Level but higher degree of difficulty. Flying changes every 4th stride, canter half-pirouette.


----------



## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

Out of curiosity... why are you ruling out Jumpers? Any horse with a good foundation on the flat should be able to handle at least first level possibly second. If you're willing to work with the posted horse, I think you might find what your looking for in the available equine population.


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

Because I'm hoping to get past 2nd and into 3rd or 4th level. Trust me, I look at ALL the ads, but I end up passing the jumpers because of that.

Even with this 7 year old.. my very experienced friend is doubtful he'd fully do 3rd, much less 4th level. I don't just want to do the movements, I want to do well at those levels. Which is why I'm probably going to pass on this horse too. =(


----------



## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Teamfire, it's great to want to do well at those levels - BUT doing well does come with having experience at those levels. Just don't get yourself disheartened if you start competing at those levels are are coming mid-field even when you think you have aced a test. 
My dressage 'career' is solidly based on my motto that you ruin every horse you get a little less than the previous one.
So if this is your first horse, think of it as a horse that you're going to make mistakes on and learn on, then the next horse will be a little better, and so on. 
That is the reason I have never purchased an expensive, talented and big moving horse that has the potential to do well with the right rider. In the past I have felt that I have not been ready in my riding to do the horse justice, even though I have trained and owned multiple other horses and have a significant amount of experience. Only now, about 8-10 horses down the line from when I started out in horse ownership, not included leases and client horses, been a member of the state dressage squad, coached, competed and trained, have I decided to take the plunge and spend a lot of money on a very well bred hanoverian youngster. And even he is not a worldbeater, he has 3 good, solid paces that I will be able to collect and extend, and an excellent temperament. I am hoping he will be my 'practice' horse to get me dabbling in FEI (PSG and above) competition. I don't expect to go out and win everything, I just want to ride as well as I can, learn more on this horse and make mistakes, then learn to correct them. THEN I will go out and find something a bit flashier


----------



## dop (Nov 7, 2009)

teamfire said:


> Hm, what specifically in his conformation or movement don't you like? I'm trying to learn...
> 
> Here's a better picture for his hind leg conformation (his trainer is riding in this one, not the best shot)
> 
> ...


Possible suspensory ligament issue with his right hind? There's a serious dropping of that fetlock... noticeable to me at the walk & trot.


----------



## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Appendix Horse For Sale, British Columbia (Canada), West Kelowna

Is this horse anywhere near you? Granted his head is being pulled down into a false frame, but he looks like he has a nice trot in him.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Dop, I am seeing something similar to you, but I saw it as a hock issue in the right hind... its just not right. I couldn't see it in the first video because the horse is being run hell bent for leather, face first into the ground but where he is moving naturally something looks fishy.

Op, you want to find a 4th level Dressage prospect that is suitable for an am to train themselves as a first Dressage horse for under $5k? Realistically you are looking for the impossible horse. In dressage, as Kayty said, every horse is a learning experience and we have to try to ruin them a little less every time. I think it is far more realistic to look for a horse with the potential for lower levels and learn how to learn, teach and train on that, and then move up. We've all ridden a lot more training, first and second level horses than PSG ones!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jumpingrules92 (Aug 2, 2011)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Appendix Horse For Sale, British Columbia (Canada), West Kelowna
> 
> Is this horse anywhere near you? Granted his head is being pulled down into a false frame, but he looks like he has a nice trot in him.


He is CUTEEEEE! Nice find!


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

That's part of my dilemma... and what I'm really realizing now. I guess that's just the sort of thinking that has set me back. I do think I need to set myself down a little... I just got so stuck up in the idea of finding a horse that I can advance with in the long-term that I keep forgetting I'm still learning...

But you really do see something? In terms of something fishy? Could it be related to his feet being quite overdue for a trim?


----------



## jumpingrules92 (Aug 2, 2011)

teamfire said:


> That's part of my dilemma... and what I'm really realizing now. I guess that's just the sort of thinking that has set me back. I do think I need to set myself down a little... I just got so stuck up in the idea of finding a horse that I can advance with in the long-term that I keep forgetting I'm still learning...
> 
> But you really do see something? In terms of something fishy? Could it be related to his feet being quite overdue for a trim?


Just put it this way- if you don't take the advice here, and you go for it, at least do yourself a favor and get a FULL vet exam with xrays and everything you can think of with that horse. You can never go wrong with that. 

However, I agree with the ladies on here, I think theres something fishy.


----------



## sopheria (Nov 2, 2011)

Dressage is the french word for training. You and your horse have to learn together i like his movement, if you really see yourself working with him learning with him and growing with him i think he has loads of potential. If you take him and make him your own he could go to upper level. My Andalusian stallion pulled a cart when i got him and now we are 4th level.

Are you looking for a finished horse alot of theses comments people are making him out to seemed finished. He is raw, and forward and a bit gloopy but all this can be fixed. If you want a horse to bond with train keep forever and do well. then look at this horse sit down think about it go ride him if you like him take him home love him and in about 6 months of lessons and ridding i grantee you two would turn heads.


----------



## brackenbramley (May 29, 2011)

thank u  really helpful thanks teamfire  x


----------



## core (Oct 30, 2011)

I agree with Sopheria, mostly. I'm not sure he could go higher than 4th, and 4th may be a struggle for him. I'm not a professional though. This is just my opinion. 

I think you could do quite well with this horse. He's good for what you say you need. I've taken Arabs to 3rd level and we've won at USDF rated shows against pro's. If the training is solid, he's got 3 good gaits, and he's sound, then nothing is stopping you from being successful with him to the level you want to go. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you look like you're in your teens. Pretty soon you'll have college and poor paying jobs that will get in the way of your riding. Not that it meanns you can't achieve your goals, but you need to factor all of your goals into planning your future with this horse. It will take you at least 3 years to achieve third level. What will your finances be at that point? What time constraints will you have? It's good to have goals, but realistically, you may may only have enough time to hit third before you're swamped with college and work. Purchasing a horse like the one you posted about will give you the opportunity to move up, yet still allow you to recoup your initial invest if you need to sell him in a few years to pay for college. All I'm saying is I think this horse suits where you are currently, and where you may be in 3-4 years. As long as he vet checks okay, I would buy him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

I'm actually 22 years old, with 4 years of university under my belt. 

Nevertheless, I decided not to go with this gelding. Very, very hard decison.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## core (Oct 30, 2011)

teamfire said:


> I'm actually 22 years old, with 4 years of university under my belt.
> 
> Nevertheless, I decided not to go with this gelding. Very, very hard decison.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


22!!! Sorry about that.  I didn't mean any offense by it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## teamfire (May 27, 2011)

no worries! Happens all the time 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

