# FRUSTRATED WITH MY MARE!!! After 2 year she still hasn’t gotten the memo



## gottatrot

Trust between horse and rider really comes only from the miles spent in the saddle. Once you've learned all of her reactions to all kinds of things, and she understands you are trustworthy to communicate in a way she understands if she does a little hop or speeds up temporarily, she'll settle more and trust you more. 

You can ride a horse and train a horse for endless hours in an arena, but horse and rider also have to spend a lot of time riding together out on the trails to build trust in that different environment. 

In general, I've found that I needed to ride a horse out regularly for about three months to get a start on both of us trusting each others' reactions. After about six months, you start to feel pretty comfortable. After a year, you can start feeling like a real team, but it can take even longer with some horses. 

On another thread we were discussing how sensitive horses are to us. They read each individual extremely well. Trust from the horse and the response you want will have to come from _your _communication with the horse; you can't just get it from things a trainer has done with a horse. 
You can't program a horse through a trainer to respond a certain way to things because the horse will respond differently with each rider on her back. 

If you can respond in a way similar to how the trainer got good results, the horse will soon learn to respond to you in a way similar to how she responded to the trainer. If you respond differently, then the horse will only learn a new way to respond based on your riding. I hope this makes sense. 

Many people have their horses trained but never learn to communicate with the horse themselves, so essentially what they get from training is a horse that goes well for the trainer. I can hop on a lot of the horses at my barn and take them for a great ride, but that does their owners no good. The owners have to learn to ride the horse also.


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## Avna

Not really sure what you are asking for. 

Your horse spooked. All horses spook. Your horse will spook no matter what memo you think she should have gotten. 

You froze. You need to practice your one-rein stop a lot more, so you don't freeze when you actually need it. That's my advice.


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## thecolorcoal

@Avna, not a spook. A spook is a sudden reaction to something and then it’s over. This happens time and time again if a horse gets too far ahead or in a faster gait than the one we are going. IF I don’t let her chase them down this is what happens.

I’ve ridden horses who spook. That’s not a problem. But ones who decide you arent smart enough to help them out and need to just sit and hang on is a different animal altogether.
@gottatrot, the trainer used extreme force and borderline abusive methods to stifle all argument and opinion from this horse on the trails. I don’t want to do that. I want us to be a partnership but I also want her to understand that when in doubt she should look to me for reassurance, not the horse ahead of us and not herself. I’m still trying to help her see this. It’s been an extremely long process and I’m doubting now if it will ever happen...


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## Avna

thecolorcoal said:


> @Avna, not a spook. A spook is a sudden reaction to something and then it’s over. This happens time and time again if a horse gets too far ahead or in a faster gait than the one we are going. IF I don’t let her chase them down this is what happens.
> 
> I’ve ridden horses who spook. That’s not a problem. But ones who decide you arent smart enough to help them out and need to just sit and hang on is a different animal altogether.
> @gottatrot, the trainer used extreme force and borderline abusive methods to stifle all argument and opinion from this horse on the trails. I don’t want to do that. I want us to be a partnership but I also want her to understand that when in doubt she should look to me for reassurance, not the horse ahead of us and not herself. I’m still trying to help her see this. It’s been an extremely long process and I’m doubting now if it will ever happen...


Oh, you mean she BOLTS. 

My opinion is that your first job is that you need to show her that you can stop her from bolting. If you can't do that, then you are right, you don't have a chance of convincing her of anything else. 

Can you stop her from bolting?


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## thecolorcoal

Avna said:


> thecolorcoal said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Avna, not a spook. A spook is a sudden reaction to something and then it’s over. This happens time and time again if a horse gets too far ahead or in a faster gait than the one we are going. IF I don’t let her chase them down this is what happens.
> 
> I’ve ridden horses who spook. That’s not a problem. But ones who decide you arent smart enough to help them out and need to just sit and hang on is a different animal altogether.
> @gottatrot, the trainer used extreme force and borderline abusive methods to stifle all argument and opinion from this horse on the trails. I don’t want to do that. I want us to be a partnership but I also want her to understand that when in doubt she should look to me for reassurance, not the horse ahead of us and not herself. I’m still trying to help her see this. It’s been an extremely long process and I’m doubting now if it will ever happen...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, you mean she BOLTS.
> 
> My opinion is that your first job is that you need to show her that you can stop her from bolting. If you can't do that, then you are right, you don't have a chance of convincing her of anything else.
> 
> Can you stop her from bolting?
Click to expand...

I consider a bolt a blind gallop forward. This is a canter. It might be a bolt considering as an ottb you can’t pull back directly with two reins or she leans. Otherwise i... don’t know what to categorize it as.

Normally I can turn her nose and get her at least to slow down but what do you do on a straight path with two walls on either side? I guess I was more worried about her running into the junk and/or the other horse.

The good news the buck wasn’t to get me off. It was more because I wouldn’t let her chase after the other horse.


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## Avna

If you can't stop her, she's bolting. The speed is a secondary thing. 

A horse you cannot stop is a dangerous horse. 

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but you are doing your horse no favors but waiting for her to trust and love you while she is meanwhile misbehaving and being dangerous to you, herself, and others. 

You need to learn the technique and confidence necessary to shut her down when she does this.


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## thecolorcoal

Avna said:


> If you can't stop her, she's bolting. The speed is a secondary thing.
> 
> I probably would have slammed her nose into the wall but then, I'm a brute . . . a horse you can't stop is a dangerous horse.


But racehorses don’t stop when you apply straight pressure on both reins which is what I did.

In the arena she is easy. The trails are new for us. I don’t like not having 4 walls...


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## Avna

thecolorcoal said:


> But racehorses don’t stop when you apply straight pressure on both reins which is what I did.
> 
> In the arena she is easy. The trails are new for us. I don’t like not having 4 walls...


Then don't do that any more. In general it is a poor way to stop any horse.


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## thecolorcoal

Avna said:


> thecolorcoal said:
> 
> 
> 
> But racehorses don’t stop when you apply straight pressure on both reins which is what I did.
> 
> In the arena she is easy. The trails are new for us. I don’t like not having 4 walls...
> 
> 
> 
> Then don't do that any more. In general it is a poor way to stop any horse.
Click to expand...

Yes I know 🙂 I’m always reflecting and finding ways to do better next time.

The way the trainer “broke” her of this before is to pull her head up and beat her with the dressage whip. I don’t want to do that. I want to help her see we are as much of a herd of 2 as 4. I can’t ride her with others because this is what she does. Alone she is perfect, but as soon as more people and horses are added into the group she cares more about what they are doing than me.


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## Avna

thecolorcoal said:


> Yes I know 🙂 I’m always reflecting and finding ways to do better next time.
> 
> The way the trainer “broke” her of this before is to pull her head up and beat her with the dressage whip. I don’t want to do that. I want to help her see we are as much of a herd of 2 as 4. I can’t ride her with others because this is what she does. Alone she is perfect, but as soon as more people and horses are added into the group she cares more about what they are doing than me.


Just because you don't want to do what the trainer did doesn't mean you have to keep doing something else that doesn't work either. 

There are humane practical techniques that teach horses that they must stop when asked. You need to learn them. Otherwise you are stuck with an extremely limited horse. 

The best thing anyone can do for a horse is to teach it the kind of manners that will enable it to be useful and safe with another owner. Nothing will safeguard the future of your mare more than that.


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## loosie

thecolorcoal said:


> I consider a bolt a blind gallop forward. This is a canter. It might be a bolt considering as an ottb you can’t pull back directly with two reins or she leans. Otherwise i... don’t know what to categorize it as.
> 
> Normally I can turn her nose and get her at least to slow down but what do you do on a straight path with two walls on either side?


I'd class it as a bolt too, just not a blind panic one. And while in blind panic you may well be in bigger trouble trying to 'one rein stop' if you need force to achieve it (which is not how it should be) or don't have room to turn, but if it's not blind panic, then I would indeed turn the horse into the wall if she won't stop straight - she isn't likely to run herself into a wall if she has her wits about her.

If the 100's you spent on training was with the abusive guy who tried to just shut her down, 'break' her, then I'm afraid this probably exacerbated her attitude & if you can't/don't want to use those methods it was all for naught.


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## Acadianartist

You had a frustrating moment. I totally get it -- REALLY. If anyone gets it, it's me. Tonight, as the sun was setting, I thought about how nice it would be to do a trail ride around my property. Just a quick loop. But then I thought about the flies that drive my mare insane. And the fact that I'd be riding alone right at dusk when there are a lot of animals around that might spook her. And how it's unlikely to be a relaxing ride anyway because I'll be stressed the whole time. So I didn't ride. But I did go out, do some ground work, and lead her around the trail. Turns out it was a big sloppy, muddy mess because of some heavy rain we got today so it's a good thing I didn't ride. It was hard enough for my mare and I to walk uphill in it. 

I feel your discouragement on a regular basis. I often wish I just had an easy, quiet horse I could hop on bareback and ride. But I don't. 

As much as your ride was frustrating and discouraging for you, I'd encourage you to think of it as a very minor setback. You know about extinction of behaviors right? When you want to get rid of an unwanted behavior, it will get worse before it gets better. Then you will see the odd flare-up after you think the problem is gone. But those will be fewer and further between. You stayed on. It was not a buck meant to unseat you. You got past the thing. Maybe next time there will be no reaction. And it will get better and better. But you're allowed to feel frustrated and discouraged. Tomorrow's a new day. Keep at it. I like @gottatrot's comment. Maybe you just both need lots of time in the saddle. So do Kodak and I.


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## thecolorcoal

I have said she isn’t being sold under any circumstances. Worst case scenario, and this is If she were unrideable for whatever reason, she will be put out to pasture. You may disagree with this but if it’s her or a rideable sound horse, id pick her.

I am looking for solutions from people who have had horses with these problems. Horses who have extreme self preservation or are competitive and have a one track mind: live/win or else. Is there anything I can do to LESSEN her knee jerk reactions to stimuli she doesn’t like or is it a matter of me learning how to manage and sit these situations as this is just the way the horse is? From people who have been through this before.... which is it?
@Acadianartist, thanks so much ❤ I could expect this behavior from a 5 year old just started under saddle, but an 8 year old with almost three years of training? I Have had her the longest out of any of her owners. At this point the issues are beyond unreasonable. The only pain thing I can think of is she is in heat and gets sore along her back and croup. While she is worse behaved during these times she has done this behavior out of season too.

It took her over a year for her to trust me in the arena. Now we have that covered. It feels like we are starting all over from her first days home when we are out on the trail. But she is stronger and more athletic than she was as an 850lb starved skinny tb. That adds an extra element of danger and concern.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> Yes I know 🙂 I’m always reflecting and finding ways to do better next time.
> 
> The way the trainer “broke” her of this before is to pull her head up and beat her with the dressage whip. I don’t want to do that. I want to help her see we are as much of a herd of 2 as 4. I can’t ride her with others because this is what she does. Alone she is perfect, but as soon as more people and horses are added into the group she cares more about what they are doing than me.


This thread brought 2 things to my mind. #1, don't go out on the trail in a group until YOU have the one rein stop down solid. That's a safety issue that you have to deal with. Start teaching her to stop without a huge 1 rein panic stop by using your seat bones and pumping 1 rein (say the left rein) and then closing your elbow and giving her half halts until she slows down to the gait you want her in. You can do all of that in the arena. 

#2 Play what I call "conveyor belt" with her and the other horses/riders when you go back out on trail. Everyone rides single file, I'd suggest you start at the front so she doesn't hit her "OH NO GOT TO CATCH UP" button right away. Ride up there for about a minute, then peel off and go to the back. The next horse peels off and goes to the back and the next and the next and so on,m and pretty soon you're back at the front of the line. This will help her to learn to ride in any position. At first you can stay pretty close if you have horses that won't object to her being right on their heels. As time goes on and she gets used to this idea, you can start creating a little more space between the horses, getting her used to being separated by a foot at a time. 

#3 When she's on the trail keep her mind busy. Practice your half halts. Stop and back up 3-5 paces. Practice your serpentines, turns on the haunches, turn on the forehand, sidepass down the trail, shoulder in, leg yield, shoulder out and anything else you can think of to keep her brain engaged and on you where it belongs. This mare is extremely anxious and is NEVER going to get the memo about looking to you until you show her definitively that you can and will keep her occupied, busy, and safe. 

You say "I don’t like not having 4 walls...", this is the root of all your troubles out on the trail. Until YOU get past wanting to ride in 4 walls, the horse will read your nervousness and act on it.


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## SteadyOn

You might want to have the pulley rein as a tool in your back pocket for when you can't do a one-rein stop. It's not pretty but neither is being run away with. It also isn't an even steady pressure on both reins, and they can't lean into it the same way.


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## mmshiro

You got the wrong horse for your personality.

_"Tyra felt we were moving too slow and had to keep up."_ – It's what she was trained to do. She was a race horse.

_"So she *needs* to trust me and understand"_ – No, she most definitely does not. Trust (as well as respect) are earned, not demanded. And who's the apex predator in this relationship anyway?

_"'Taking off' ie slow canter with really no stop."_ – She's the wrong horse for you.

I have some experience trail riding with a total of four OTTBs; two mares, two geldings; ages 6-32. My recent project is at the beginning of his after-track training, so he needs to do some arena stuff, and then I take him out on the trails to allow him to let his hair down. Seriously, if he wants to speed up, I do some transitions to trick him into thinking that it's my idea, but then he can go as fast as he wants for however long the stretch in front of us is safe-ish.) I have always enjoyed riding them solo more than with others exactly because they are trained to not allow themselves to be left behind. Some are bigger knuckleheads about it than others. It's a real problem if they try to stick to a kicker's ***. In any case, if you're concerned about "a slow canter with really no stop", what are you going to do if you ever get into a gallop - and realize you probably won't stop? (Hint: You gotta ride it until you figure it out, which means that if the brakes are shot, the steering better works.)

I still don't understand whether we are talking about a "junk induced bolt" or a "keeping up with the horse in front" issue. In any case, it didn't sound like you got into a situation that should cause you to _freeze_. And if you're not confident that it's safe to stop, why should the horse be?

If she's this antsy about being left behind, have you considered swapping lead every now and so often, so she gets to be left behind for a little bit, but gets to go in front before she gets upset about it?


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## SueC

gottatrot said:


> Trust between horse and rider really comes only from the miles spent in the saddle. Once you've learned all of her reactions to all kinds of things, and she understands you are trustworthy to communicate in a way she understands if she does a little hop or speeds up temporarily, she'll settle more and trust you more.
> 
> You can ride a horse and train a horse for endless hours in an arena, but horse and rider also have to spend a lot of time riding together out on the trails to build trust in that different environment.
> 
> In general, I've found that I needed to ride a horse out regularly for about three months to get a start on both of us trusting each others' reactions. After about six months, you start to feel pretty comfortable. After a year, you can start feeling like a real team, but it can take even longer with some horses.
> 
> On another thread we were discussing how sensitive horses are to us. They read each individual extremely well. Trust from the horse and the response you want will have to come from _your _communication with the horse; you can't just get it from things a trainer has done with a horse.
> You can't program a horse through a trainer to respond a certain way to things because the horse will respond differently with each rider on her back.
> 
> If you can respond in a way similar to how the trainer got good results, the horse will soon learn to respond to you in a way similar to how she responded to the trainer. If you respond differently, then the horse will only learn a new way to respond based on your riding. I hope this makes sense.
> 
> Many people have their horses trained but never learn to communicate with the horse themselves, so essentially what they get from training is a horse that goes well for the trainer. I can hop on a lot of the horses at my barn and take them for a great ride, but that does their owners no good. The owners have to learn to ride the horse also.


I just feel this post merits repeating.

It's nothing to do with the horse's age and how long you've spent with her. It's that if you want a horse to go well on trails, you need to ride it on trails consistently and for many months before you become a real trails team - no matter how good an arena team you already are.

If you're not comfortable riding on trails, that adds to the situation, as a horse will often pick up and amplify on _any_ lack of ease on the part of the rider (which is often anxiety about what the horse will do). Catch-22? The good news is, as you both ride more trails, you'll both get more comfortable. "Conveyor belt" is an excellent prescription for your situation as well.

What happens when you're riding with a horse whose paces match yours? A lot of highly strung horses get antsy riding with plodders, so riding with a more matched horse at first would be helpful in settling her down and giving both of you confidence. It's removing one of the variables that are making things uneasy. You can re-introduce the "riding with slow company" variable later on, when you've dealt with a few other ones. ;-)

Best wishes, persist, and enjoy your trails!

:cowboy:


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## mmshiro

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> You say "I don’t like not having 4 walls...", this is the root of all your troubles out on the trail. Until YOU get past wanting to ride in 4 walls, the horse will read your nervousness and act on it.


:iagree: :thumbsup:


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## Bugbegone

Is she of the track? Remember her job is to not get left behind. Practice one rein stops.Introduce quiet, experienced horses with riders who are aware of your problem. Let her lead on your rides. Put her in front and work thru problem areas to build her confidence and yours. It's hard to find someone who's willing to do this but that's what you need to do at this point with her. Your thinking all that race stuff should be gone and it never does. My sister bought a ott gelding turned out to be a great trail until we did a parade and once he heard the announcer it was game on. She was freaking out, ready to bale, I said soften your hands and relax your seat and we got it thru. The point is it had been years since he'd been on the track but there it was again, remember that. I agree with you that force isn't the way to get her better or build her confidence in you as her leader. Take a step back and start again. Good luck


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## Avna

thecolorcoal said:


> I have said she isn’t being sold under any circumstances. Worst case scenario, and this is If she were unrideable for whatever reason, she will be put out to pasture. You may disagree with this but if it’s her or a rideable sound horse, id pick her.
> 
> I am looking for solutions from people who have had horses with these problems. Horses who have extreme self preservation or are competitive and have a one track mind: live/win or else. Is there anything I can do to LESSEN her knee jerk reactions to stimuli she doesn’t like or is it a matter of me learning how to manage and sit these situations as this is just the way the horse is? From people who have been through this before.... which is it?
> @Acadianartist, thanks so much ❤ I could expect this behavior from a 5 year old just started under saddle, but an 8 year old with almost three years of training? I Have had her the longest out of any of her owners. At this point the issues are beyond unreasonable. The only pain thing I can think of is she is in heat and gets sore along her back and croup. While she is worse behaved during these times she has done this behavior out of season too.
> 
> It took her over a year for her to trust me in the arena. Now we have that covered. It feels like we are starting all over from her first days home when we are out on the trail. But she is stronger and more athletic than she was as an 850lb starved skinny tb. That adds an extra element of danger and concern.


First of all, I said what I said about training a horse to be someone else's because the fact is, you may not control what happens to this horse even if you absolutely want to. Because you don't control what happens to YOU. No one does. So if something happened to you, such that you could not keep her, you would have to place or euthanize her. Yes, this happens to people all the time and it could happen to you. So plan for it, even if it never does. 

Second, you are really overthinking this. You have one job here -- control the bolt. You don't have to figure out what peculiarities of her temperament cause her to do it, or what you should reasonably expect from a horse of her age, experience, and coloration, or how you want her to feel about you. _You just have to stop the bolt_. Once you know you can stop her, and she knows you can stop her, a whole lot of things are going to change for you.


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## loosie

If she's a rather anxious, reactive horse generally, which it sounds she might be, (& there are other reasons you might want to do this too...) adding magnesium to her diet may be in order and really help her 'chill'. 

I thought my horse's diet was well balanced years ago and so dismissed things like magnesium or other 'calming supps'. Long story short, one of mine had some anxiety issues which I couldn't work out - despite being a previously level headed, easy going boy, would seriously freak out occasionally at things he previously & generally wouldn't have - & it felt to me like 'suddenly, out of the blue, for no apparent reason'. Then I started him on extra Mg for other (health & hoof) reasons and lo and behold, quite quickly had my sane, easygoing boy back again! 



thecolorcoal said:


> but an 8 year old with almost three years of training? ...It took her over a year for her to trust me in the arena. Now we have that covered. It feels like we are starting all over from her first days home when we are out on the trail.


As someone (Avna?) already said, it IS different out on the trail & you DO need to treat it as such. You said you haven't yet done much with her on the trail, so the 3 years of arena training don't count for much. Horses don't generalise well, so just because(assuming) she has learned to trust you in the arena doesn't mean to say she knows the same to be true when out & about. If you treat her just as if it's her first day home, baby steps, I'm pretty sure it won't take you half as long to gain her trust & respect when out tho. But treat her where she's at, not where you think she 'should' be at.

Agreed, no. 1 issue is that you need to get a good stop on her, ASAP though. Then you can work from there - she won't learn to trust you & respect you if you can't control her, but forget your own training in panic & become ineffectual yourself.


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## thecolorcoal

Thanks so much for everyone's help. This is just an ongoing saga with her. I am sure everyone is tired of me constantly complaining and things but really - I grew up thinking the answer to horse training was making YOURSELF the scariest thing in the world to the horse. If this were a gelding I believe it would be a different story, but any kind of traditional methods using positive punishment or whatever you want to call it (pressure, pain, etc) just makes the situation worse. The answer seems to literally ignore and tolerate and work around, but while I am finally FIT enough to sit these acrobatic tendencies (phew!), they are a reaction of what i consider an irrational fear. It's like... really? She is a SMART HORSE. These are dumb anxieties, at least in my mind. That is why I am continuously so frustrated. I feel I have made every effort to assure her that I am here for her, or at least I am doing my darnest to attempt this. But any SLIGHT hesitation on my part and she has an absolute meltdown and is near inconsolable. 

I found out the trainer who I was PAYING to fix this actually let her do it because she "could ride it" and to her it wasn't "a big deal", but this is MY HORSE. So now I need to buck up or find professional help again. Someone needs to break through to her that her life will not end if she is alone with a human on her back. She seems convinced it will. Her trust issues run so deep a black hole would seem shallow.

I don't know how long it takes for _abused horses_ to come around. It's been two years. She has come A LONG WAY. As a sport horse, a competitive horse, a show horse, you couldn't ask for better. When we are doing a job together as a team? It's unlike anything I've ever experienced. The oneness is... out of this world amazing. It is like a religious experience.

But it's when she gets into her own mind that the problems begin, when she DECIDES - and I mean _decides,_ as in without area for argument - it's do or die. It's run after our herd or get left behind and eaten, even when there is NO monster and her rider is completely relaxed. She did this with my leaser and several trainers. Some of it's me but a lot of it is her. She's a thoroughbred and I get that but I believe I have proven to her that she is not going to be thrown away and abandoned again, and yet she seems to continue to have moments like this where she doubts my commitment to her.

Thanks for hearing me out on all of this. I strongly, firmly believe this is as much psychological as it is horsey behavior. If it were behavioral it would be less of a problem to repair, more straightforward. But I am not versed in helping emotionally scarred horses, and I am trying very, very hard. Trail riding is something that should be relaxing and fun for her, not stressful and upsetting. It hurts to know somehow she believes I am letting her down, when I am trying so, so hard to be brave for her.


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## thecolorcoal

mmshiro said:


> You got the wrong horse for your personality.
> 
> _"Tyra felt we were moving too slow and had to keep up."_ – It's what she was trained to do. She was a race horse.
> 
> _"So she *needs* to trust me and understand"_ – No, she most definitely does not. Trust (as well as respect) are earned, not demanded. And who's the apex predator in this relationship anyway?
> 
> _"'Taking off' ie slow canter with really no stop."_ – She's the wrong horse for you.
> 
> I have some experience trail riding with a total of four OTTBs; two mares, two geldings; ages 6-32. My recent project is at the beginning of his after-track training, so he needs to do some arena stuff, and then I take him out on the trails to allow him to let his hair down. Seriously, if he wants to speed up, I do some transitions to trick him into thinking that it's my idea, but then he can go as fast as he wants for however long the stretch in front of us is safe-ish.) I have always enjoyed riding them solo more than with others exactly because they are trained to not allow themselves to be left behind. Some are bigger knuckleheads about it than others. It's a real problem if they try to stick to a kicker's ***. In any case, if you're concerned about "a slow canter with really no stop", what are you going to do if you ever get into a gallop - and realize you probably won't stop? (Hint: You gotta ride it until you figure it out, which means that if the brakes are shot, the steering better works.)
> 
> I still don't understand whether we are talking about a "junk induced bolt" or a "keeping up with the horse in front" issue. In any case, it didn't sound like you got into a situation that should cause you to _freeze_. And if you're not confident that it's safe to stop, why should the horse be?
> 
> If she's this antsy about being left behind, have you considered swapping lead every now and so often, so she gets to be left behind for a little bit, but gets to go in front before she gets upset about it?


Perhaps I did, but perhaps I got the horse who needed to teach me how to be a better rider. This is the most difficult horse I have ever ridden. Every other "challenging" horse seems easy now compared to her. I rode my friend's "chronically bucking" mare today just for a different experience and I knew EXACTLY how to shut down some of her "silly" moments because Tyra does the same thing. And you know what? it worked. this horse was 110% more compliant than mine, and she's been labeled a "danger" by her owners. Ha. She was a piece of cake.

I think that challenges make us grow. The difficulty I am having with Tyra is most horses would just lower their head and be "ok, you got me. good." Tyra just will. not. give. up. her individuality. She will not "give me the reins" and let me take care of her. She HAS to completely shoulder her own safety, and that is what frustrates me the most - _she will not let me help her_. I don't know what the normal timespan is for a horse who is this strong-willed and independent. She makes "Spirit, Stallion of the Cimoron" look easy sometimes! :runninghorse2:

edit: My new friend with the chronically bucking mare is determined to help us. We are doing the "follow the leader" where we switch who is in front down the trail. *I AM NOT GIVING UP.* We are going to get this. _We are going to do this._ I am hell-bent on getting Tyra trail-savvy. I just was hoping I could save myself the bruises.


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## loosie

thecolorcoal said:


> I grew up thinking the answer to horse training was making YOURSELF the scariest thing in the world to the horse.


Yeah, me too. Glad I got over that 'conditioning'.



> what i consider an irrational fear. It's like... really? She is a SMART HORSE. These are dumb anxieties, at least in my mind. That is why I am continuously so frustrated. I feel I have made every effort to assure her that I am here for her,


Yes, horses ARE NOT rational thinkers(a lot of humans aren't even). Don't expect her to rationalise. They are NOT 'dumb anxieties' though, they are just HORSE anxieties, that don't worry humans. Perhaps because you're not quite getting that, that she knows full well you don't understand her & are getting frustrated, there's no chance of reassuring her. But again, if YOU aren't confident 'without 4 walls', it's a pretty... shallow promise that you're trying to give her.



> Someone needs to break through to her that her life will not end if she is alone with a human on her back.


How is she out on trails *without* you on her back? That's probably where I'd start when out.



> I don't know how long it takes for _abused horses_ to come around. It's been two years.


But didn't you say it HASN'T been anywhere remotely near that long, *out on the trails*?



> seems to continue to have moments like this where she doubts my commitment to her.


That is human thinking. She doesn't understand or therefore care for your commitment to her. She just acts as she feels the need.



> I strongly, firmly believe this is as much psychological as it is horsey behavior. If it were behavioral it would be less of a problem to repair, more straightforward. But I am not versed in helping emotionally scarred horses, and I am trying very, very hard. Trail riding is something that should be relaxing and fun for her, not stressful and upsetting.


Absolutely, psychology is at the root of all behaviour, so I'm not getting your distinction. As for 'emotionally scarred' & your skills/understanding, maybe you should just accept that she will not make a good trail horse *for you at least* & stick to home. And maybe, with another horse YOU can gain confidence on firts, you will gain the ability to get her over it at a later date.


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## thecolorcoal

@loosie, that's part of the problem. Every horse is easy compared to this one. The confidence comes from encountering a challenging situation like today and a) staying on and b) managing it. A happened, and B happened on blind instinction. Being able to accomplish a and b is almost child's play on a horse that would clasically built confidence. What I need is to see I have the tools, the skills, the physical and mental equipment, to manage and take charge of these situations.

The difficulty is "shutting it down" IS NOT EASY. You try and diffuse the bomb? That doesn't de-escalate. if anything IT MAKES IT WORSE! I apologize greatly if you are going ??? but please, please trust me when I say a 1 rein stop doesn't cure tyra's fear. it just pauses it or makes her believe that she REALLY needs to save herself. It redirects the situation from getting away from the junk pile to getting away from ME. What I am here for is things I can do in the moment to help calm her down. The "bolting," as pathetic as it is, is actually the most controllable part of these entire fits. The bucking, while "in place" is the worst part, because here you are shaken in the saddle back and forth and then before you can regain your balance she is off to the races! 

I am calling out anybody who can empathize/sympathize or has any personal experience with this situation because it is the first of its kind for me. I grew up in "beat the horse" until it is more afraid of YOU than the scary pile of whatever. But instead of falling in line obediently like the geldings did growing up, Tyra's determination to run with or without a rider is what makes riding with others almost impossible. But going alone she is 100%. That's why I need help.

I am close to calling out a cowboy...


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## thecolorcoal

just wish mr. ross was here...  i loved his "worry cup" video. I always keep that in mind. I try and keep her cup as empty as I can. But sometimes it fills up without me even being aware.


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## gottatrot

I don't want to be offensive. However, I believe you have a wrong idea about horses. The idea (I used to have it too) is that horses can be trained out of their individual personality and breed characteristics. I agree with @mmshiro about what is normal TB behavior.

When you say a trail ride should be calm and relaxing, it really does depend on the horse. I've ridden many horses that do not ever get to where the average person would just relax and saunter along on them out on the trails. Many horses are "wired for sound" and will always move out and stay alert. 

If your horse gets more amped when you try to make her stop, then you probably have a quite normal type of TB. Many Arabs are like this too. You're not going to shut them down or make them stand, when excited. Instead, it's like training a very excitable dog - you have to let out the energy until it is at a manageable level. 
Not everyone has the riding skill, patience, confidence, etc to deal with this type of horse personality in these situations. 

I expect if I ride a lot and keep my OTTB fit, he will sometimes get too full of himself and I'll not be able to do a long, slow walk. That was also true of my last two horses, who were Arabs. If I were taking a TB out on the trail, I'd expect to spend some time letting the horse move out at least in a trot and would not expect the horse to walk too much.
This is not true of many stock horses I ride, because of different genetics and personality. 

This is not a mare thing, or racehorse thing, or abuse thing, it's related to the breed and temperament of a particular horse. It also has nothing to do with the horse trusting you or not. A horse can trust you completely but still get very excited and feel the need to move out. 

My advice is that if you want to keep the horse, you should accept her personality. You should learn to ride confidently and let your horse move out at a good pace when she needs to, in order to help her learn to manage her energy. Often with these horses you work backwards, exposing them to things at faster speeds where they can think better, and then teaching them to tolerate the same things at the walk. We zoom by scary things from a distance, and eventually work down to walking closer.

A common way to ask an OTTB to slow is to hold one rein steady - against the neck if your seat is less secure - and then use the other rein to pull back intermittently with a good release. If your horse takes off or spooks, I'd do this to ask her to come back down to a trot, then walk if she is calm enough. I wouldn't try to go from a canter to a "stop now!" because you'll probably not achieve that. If she is forging somewhere you don't want her to go once she is in a slower gait, just circle her around back to where you want her to go, and then let her move a little as you steer her where you want until she calms.

As @loosie said, a horse might think the world is ending because a pink ribbon is fluttering in a tree. There is no such thing as a "dumb" anxiety, and no relationship with a human that will overcome the survival instinct a horse can have. People are very judgmental about horse anxieties, but will run out of a room because of a spider the size of their fingernail.


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## thecolorcoal

gottatrot said:


> I don't want to be offensive. However, I believe you have a wrong idea about horses. The idea (I used to have it too) is that horses can be trained out of their individual personality and breed characteristics. I agree with @mmshiro about what is normal TB behavior.
> 
> When you say a trail ride should be calm and relaxing, it really does depend on the horse. I've ridden many horses that do not ever get to where the average person would just relax and saunter along on them out on the trails. Many horses are "wired for sound" and will always move out and stay alert.
> 
> If your horse gets more amped when you try to make her stop, then you probably have a quite normal type of TB. Many Arabs are like this too. You're not going to shut them down or make them stand, when excited. Instead, it's like training a very excitable dog - you have to let out the energy until it is at a manageable level.
> Not everyone has the riding skill, patience, confidence, etc to deal with this type of horse personality in these situations.
> 
> I expect if I ride a lot and keep my OTTB fit, he will sometimes get too full of himself and I'll not be able to do a long, slow walk. That was also true of my last two horses, who were Arabs. If I were taking a TB out on the trail, I'd expect to spend some time letting the horse move out at least in a trot and would not expect the horse to walk too much.
> This is not true of many stock horses I ride, because of different genetics and personality.
> 
> This is not a mare thing, or racehorse thing, or abuse thing, it's related to the breed and temperament of a particular horse. It also has nothing to do with the horse trusting you or not. A horse can trust you completely but still get very excited and feel the need to move out.
> 
> My advice is that if you want to keep the horse, you should accept her personality. You should learn to ride confidently and let your horse move out at a good pace when she needs to, in order to help her learn to manage her energy. Often with these horses you work backwards, exposing them to things at faster speeds where they can think better, and then teaching them to tolerate the same things at the walk. We zoom by scary things from a distance, and eventually work down to walking closer.
> 
> A common way to ask an OTTB to slow is to hold one rein steady - against the neck if your seat is less secure - and then use the other rein to pull back intermittently with a good release. If your horse takes off or spooks, I'd do this to ask her to come back down to a trot, then walk if she is calm enough. I wouldn't try to go from a canter to a "stop now!" because you'll probably not achieve that. If she is forging somewhere you don't want her to go once she is in a slower gait, just circle her around back to where you want her to go, and then let her move a little as you steer her where you want until she calms.
> 
> As @loosie said, a horse might think the world is ending because a pink ribbon is fluttering in a tree. There is no such thing as a "dumb" anxiety, and no relationship with a human that will overcome the survival instinct a horse can have. People are very judgmental about horse anxieties, but will run out of a room because of a spider the size of their fingernail.


thanks for your help gottatrot. I agree. I need to figure out how to ride _this_ horse. the answer has always been "send her to a trainer! have the trainer deal with her!" and i do that, but then when I get in the saddle everything the trainer did goes away, because the problem wasn't really her, it was me and how I deal with her. and that isn't something a trainer can help with.

The idea was to get tyra confident on the trails so that she can be the shoulder I LEAN on, but unfortunately the trainer I rode with allowed her to react as she would, being an ottb, because the trainer was skilled and riding it, forgetting that I didn't have those skills yet. So although the bucking has ceased in the way that it USED to be, ie deliberate attempt at dumping me, the "bolting" is a rather new trick that, ironically, i feel way more confident in dealing with. A running horse I can do, a bucking horse... i guess I can do now since i sat it pretty darn well!

I guess what I was looking for was confirmation that yes, this is just the horse she is, and that if I am going to have any chance of riding her successfully I need to meet her half way, as she has done for me in many ways. We BOTH feel uncertain on the trails, but one of us has to be leader and tyra definitely feels that, if push comes to shove, and i'm not there to assert myself, she's going to manage the situation, as she would as a horse.

Loved your post. thanks so much <3


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## Kalraii

I can feel your frustration from across the ocean! <3 I think really, you need to give up on moulding Tyra into something you want and instead work with what she gives you. I know you are desperate to chillax on the trails as a goal and have you both be best buddies. And that it can be hurtful when it feels like you've invested so much and they still don't _get you_. Some animals, of various species, really do NOT have the temperament to be leaned on or trusted. Tyra sounds great btw, really smart but also really anxious. She'll probably never be your rock on the trails that you can rely on and "autopilot". It IS a big and scary responsibility to be solely responsible for yourself and your horse, knowing that if you aren't meeting the criteria the horse will do horse things in the name of survival 

Her behaviour from what you describe doesn't sound all that bad. I don't know how much trail riding or group hacking you've done (not on Tyra). Even dead broke school horses on a hack can have a lot of steam. It's NBD we just trot or canter them earlier and very quickly they settle down. The worst thing you can do is hold them back. Katie used to feel like a time-bomb. I was amazed at how fast and agile such a big horse could be. When she was ready to explode do you think that would have been a good time to ask for a halt? Nope. So instead I asked for a trot with the instructor helping me make sure I stayed relaxed. She obeyed me which is all we want right, obedience? Like someone else mentioned make it think it was Tyras idea. You can have a forward, fast AND obedient horse. She wants to trot? Make her canter. It's what I was taught when hacking out with instructors anyway. When they finally let off some steam THEN it's a good time to ask for a halt. You think asking me what I want for dinner when I'm on the toilet is good timing? OFC NOT! Lol <3

I know a lot of people are probably thinking why on earth do you have this horse, she's too much horse for you.... but so far I think you've done pretty well. There are a lot more disaster "control-freak buys OTTB" stories. I know you want to be able to run her out on the trails. I'm gonna give you some different advice. You need to get on different horses and really learn to ride outside. Even on sane, broke horses trail riding can be a bit unnerving, especially going for those long canters and odd gallop. I think you will feel much more confident in yourself if you can practice going at speed on something reliable first.  Is that a possibility in your area?


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## Kalraii

And just wanted to add, don't think by learning on different horses you are failing her at all. When I first learn to jump trust me, it ain't gonna be on Katie lol!


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## Rainaisabelle

My one suggestion would be to go back to ground work and really cement the 'whoa' cue. I would practice long reining in the arena and out on the trails + also on the lunge.


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## greentree

You have gotten a lot of interesting hypotheses here, and I agree with @Rainaisabelle ....make sure that Tyra has the word WHOA, with zero rein pressure, on the ground and under saddle, before you leave the ring. 

With any inexperienced horse, especially the high strung and insecure, I use the trail as the relaxing reward. After arena work, when the brain is a little tired, end on a good note and head down the trail, but do not plan to do a lot. Begin with just reinforcing that verbal WHOA word command, then build on that.

One of my (many, lol) pet peeves is calling a horse abused, and allowing it to be used as an excuse. No MATTER what, the training must be handled as the holes present themselves, so why even bother clouding our training brain with history? The horse lives from moment to moment in the present, and knows exactly what the present handler thinks.


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## QtrBel

"I don't know how long it takes for _abused horses_ to come around. It's been two years. She has come A LONG WAY. As a sport horse, a competitive horse, a show horse, you couldn't ask for better. When we are doing a job together as a team? It's unlike anything I've ever experienced. The oneness is... out of this world amazing. It is like a religious experience.

But it's when she gets into her own mind that the problems begin, when she DECIDES - and I mean _decides,_ as in without area for argument - it's do or die. It's run after our herd or get left behind and eaten, even when there is NO monster and her rider is completely relaxed. She did this with my leaser and several trainers. Some of it's me but a lot of it is her. She's a thoroughbred and I get that but I believe I have proven to her that she is not going to be thrown away and abandoned again, and yet she seems to continue to have moments like this where she doubts my commitment to her."




First off you need to get all of the preconceived notions and generalizations that seem to rule your world out of your head. Best for you - best for the horse. I doubt the horse was abused, neglected - sure, likely not intentional though, ridden harshly - in your opinion you have evidence of this and are basing your opinion on that observation. Don't make it out to be more than that. It has become a handy excuse when things don't follow the path you (g) set out on. You are setting yourself up for failure as well as making excuses and setting the horse up for failure. Even if the horse had been abused she is not being abused under your care and she lives in the now. Had she been abused to the point that she can't cope or learn that now is not then, then she would not belong where she is.



Get out of your head and hers as well. You don't need to be visiting the past or building the future beyond tomorrow. I'm not saying don't have dreams - I am saying don't live in them. Your horse is a product of all of her experience but she doesn't sit there and have a conversation with herself about what's what. She lives in the moment and reacts accordingly. Your relationship is dynamic and based on your energy. Action and reaction. Your action doesn't have to be overt for her reaction to be obvious. 



As a rider you should always be aware and that says you can't be completely relaxed. You can be one, you can be in tune, you can be open to possibility and not set a horse off. Complete relaxation invites the unexpected. Awareness says sh** happens and I am in charge of the outcome. Are you the rider or the passenger? As a rider you can have a conversation and your status is respected. As a passenger there is no conversation. I see too many that think a trail ride is all about being a passenger. Without realizing it the passenger tells the horse - you are the pilot, you're in charge and what you say goes. A nose to tail ride on a horse in an established string with a competent guide over a well traveled path that the string has taken over and over ad nauseum and you're good. 



In my opinion you and your horse are not a good fit. That may or may not change over time. It hasn't changed in three years. It won't change unless you start working with what you have in front of you. Not making excuses, not placing blame, not getting wrapped up in presenting your story with an expected outcome on your part. I think you are getting there. I think you have incredible determination. I think you are open and willing to listen once you get over your expectations. Everyone's interpretation of your situation isn't going to match yours. That is what makes a forum a place learning can happen. What you learn though may not be what you set out to learn. 



Whether you continue with this horse is your decision. You have said you aren't selling her on but don't think that by keeping her you are doing her any favors. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. As long as you are making headway and seeing enough progress to satisfy you and she is accepting of the path you set for her then keep on. But be willing to honestly evaluate your wants versus her needs.


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## Avna

three likes ^


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## mmshiro

You have the wrong horse.

You got an OTTB knowing that you are intimidated by speed. You got a horse with foreseeable medical needs while you are cutting down on Ramen noodles for dinner. You take normal horse behavior personal, like it's an affront to the charity you extended to her. Then you say,



thecolorcoal said:


> I am close to calling out a cowboy...


and you really don't see why your horse doesn't trust you? Have you never heard the saying that you can't BS a horse, it'll read your emotions like an open book?

She has anxieties about stuff, so what? My little boy didn't want to cross a dried-out stream bed - the ground suddenly changed color. He was genuinely concerned, snorting, backing up, big eyes, the works. I once spent 4-5 mins with an OTTB mare going past a pile of sticks. My QH once bolted at a decaying hay bale alongside the trail, then it took me a while to get him scooting past that. 

You need a Clinton Anderson horse: "Whatcha looking at, horse?" - "Just the dirt, Sir, just the dirt!"

This horse will never be grateful to you for rescuing her - it's not in the scope of what she's able to cognize. She'll always be looking out for Number 1, reacting first, ask questions later. I can't ride a horse that I just point in the right direction and then get out a book and a drink and enjoy the scenery. I enjoy a bit of TB drama on the trail, and a bit of TB speed. Because, you know what? There is no bonding event like working through a rough spot on the trail, having a bit of fun, taking a bit of risk, then hopping of and hugging that sweaty neck, thanking the horse for bringing you home safely, because you know full well he or she DIDN'T HAVE TO.

You have the wrong horse.


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## Dustbunny

YES to gottatrot's post #28 and #34, along with the posts of other's also.
The voice of experience says They are who they are. You can teach, redirect, encourage, reward, retrain, whatever, but that one basic horse personality is always going to be there. I feel for you and I do understand how frustrating it can be. I am thankful for the years I have had with my Arab/Saddlebred. She is retired now but I learned things with her I would never have learned on a much more low-keyed companion (which is what I now ride due to fact that I am just not enjoying some of those challenges at this stage in life). I miss riding my old mare. She was a fun girl going down the trail, and in all honesty, far more fun alone than with other riders.
Have you gone out with another experienced rider who might allow you to switch horses so you can actually watch how the other rider handles her, providing the other rider has the skills needed? Just a thought. 
I wish you and your mare the best. Just be realistic for the benefit of both of you.


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## thecolorcoal

Kalraii said:


> I can feel your frustration from across the ocean! <3 I think really, you need to give up on moulding Tyra into something you want and instead work with what she gives you. I know you are desperate to chillax on the trails as a goal and have you both be best buddies. And that it can be hurtful when it feels like you've invested so much and they still don't _get you_. Some animals, of various species, really do NOT have the temperament to be leaned on or trusted. Tyra sounds great btw, really smart but also really anxious. She'll probably never be your rock on the trails that you can rely on and "autopilot". It IS a big and scary responsibility to be solely responsible for yourself and your horse, knowing that if you aren't meeting the criteria the horse will do horse things in the name of survival
> 
> Her behaviour from what you describe doesn't sound all that bad. I don't know how much trail riding or group hacking you've done (not on Tyra). Even dead broke school horses on a hack can have a lot of steam. It's NBD we just trot or canter them earlier and very quickly they settle down. The worst thing you can do is hold them back. Katie used to feel like a time-bomb. I was amazed at how fast and agile such a big horse could be. When she was ready to explode do you think that would have been a good time to ask for a halt? Nope. So instead I asked for a trot with the instructor helping me make sure I stayed relaxed. She obeyed me which is all we want right, obedience? Like someone else mentioned make it think it was Tyras idea. You can have a forward, fast AND obedient horse. She wants to trot? Make her canter. It's what I was taught when hacking out with instructors anyway. When they finally let off some steam THEN it's a good time to ask for a halt. You think asking me what I want for dinner when I'm on the toilet is good timing? OFC NOT! Lol <3
> 
> I know a lot of people are probably thinking why on earth do you have this horse, she's too much horse for you.... but so far I think you've done pretty well. There are a lot more disaster "control-freak buys OTTB" stories. I know you want to be able to run her out on the trails. I'm gonna give you some different advice. You need to get on different horses and really learn to ride outside. Even on sane, broke horses trail riding can be a bit unnerving, especially going for those long canters and odd gallop. I think you will feel much more confident in yourself if you can practice going at speed on something reliable first.  Is that a possibility in your area?



yes that is what my friend Robin is suggesting. Put me on "dangerous" missy since I handle her so well, and she rides Tyra for a bit. Missy is a good trail horse. A bit more reactive more often than mine but her spooks are more average. They aren't explosive and they don't creep up on you at random occasions. Robin has decades of horse training and she's agreed to at least attempt to help me with Tyra, and she also understands I don't want heavy handed methods.


The reason I haven't given up is because this horse is my diamond in the rough. She is THE BEST horse I've ever ridden in dressage, over fences, trailering, and she is kind to me. On the ground at least. It's just trying to break through to her in scary situations...


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## PoptartShop

You need to work on slowing her down. Let her know she cannot just take off like that. Before you go on another trail.

Being OUTSIDE of the arena is an entirely different thing...it can show you what you need to work on.

I know it's hard, but stay calm and collected...if you even show a LITTLE bit of fear or frustration, she will sense it right away. They are extremely sensitive.

She needs to know it's OK to be in the back. And she needs to stay at a slow pace.

My advice? GROUNDWORK, GROUNDWORK, GROUNDWORK! Lunging, all of that. Work on walking and stopping. See how well she knows how to 'woah'. All of that. 

What you accomplish on the ground, transfers to the saddle.


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## thecolorcoal

PoptartShop said:


> You need to work on slowing her down. Let her know she cannot just take off like that. Before you go on another trail.
> 
> Being OUTSIDE of the arena is an entirely different thing...it can show you what you need to work on.
> 
> I know it's hard, but stay calm and collected...if you even show a LITTLE bit of fear or frustration, she will sense it right away. They are extremely sensitive.
> 
> She needs to know it's OK to be in the back. And she needs to stay at a slow pace.
> 
> My advice? GROUNDWORK, GROUNDWORK, GROUNDWORK! Lunging, all of that. Work on walking and stopping. See how well she knows how to 'woah'. All of that.
> 
> What you accomplish on the ground, transfers to the saddle.



But her groundwork IS very good. I can lead her without a lead rope. she stops, starts, and backs with me. She never crowds me. She never jumps on top of me. She never feeds into her own insecurities on the ground. this is _completely_ isolated to saddle time. I 100% am with you on groundwork but I have done the groundwork, years of groundwork, and we continue to struggle. I am kind but I am not weak and I don't tolerate potentially harmful situations. My standards and expectations for her are extremely high. 



Is there any hole I need to fill in our relationship? I'm starting to reach for straws. Clicker training? Liberty training? At this point think I need to start thinking outside the box of conventional training...


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## thecolorcoal

mmshiro said:


> You have the wrong horse.
> 
> You need a Clinton Anderson horse: "Whatcha looking at, horse?" - "Just the dirt, Sir, just the dirt!"
> 
> You have the wrong horse.



No. This isn't what I want. I've had those horses. Those horses are soulless and have been crushed into bits. They have no resistance. They are EASY. I don't want that.


What I want, mmshiro, is more consistency and to figure out where the patterns in her behavior lie so that I can PREDICT AND PREPARE. I can't do either. One minute she's fine, the next she isn't. In the arena she is perfect. On the trails she's a disaster. At the shows she's saintly. At home she's a mess. In her stall she's happy. In turnout she wants to go home. 



With my friend she bucks after she lands from a jump. With me she does a beautiful slow lope up to the jump. With my old trainer she would not spook on the trails. With me I could barely keep her from rearing. 



Too much contact and she leans. Too little and she tosses her head and crowhops. Too much on the TRAIL and she tosses her head and crow hops. Too little and I can't gather them up fast enough.


She is my horse. I am keeping her. She has too many injuries to sell on. She has too much baggage for another rider. No one wants to get on this horse because she scares them. But everyone wishes they could ride her because of how amazing her natural talent is in the arena and over fences.


I don't think I am over horsed, not when I am an arena rider first, and have an arena horse first. I don't have experience with horses other than deadheaded quarter horses who have had the crud beaten out of their souls so they'll stay calm. I have always ridden well-broke, well trained show horses. No, I didn't know what a 6 year old OTTB entailed, but when I brought her home she WAS the deadheaded horse who had the crud beaten out of her soul so she'd stay calm. Over the first year as she got healthy and fit that version of Tyra was replaced with what I assume to be her real personality, and maybe this is another reason why she was sold on, apart from the woman breaking the horse's ankle and not being able to treat it.


Is a GP rider overhorsed when their grand prix mount can't keep it together on a trail ride?


also, @mmshiro, people who are "overhorsed" should learn to ride better, not sell on.


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## Foxhunter

QtrBel *well said! Ditto with extra likes. *

When a horse has problems it is all to easy to make reasons for their behaviour. Fact is that you will never know the real truth about her past. 

Hen I was dealing with remedials I would ask what the horse did or didn't do to make it in need of specialist training. I expected the truth of what it did. I didn't particularly want to know the reason why. It was up to me to solve the problem without excuses for bad behaviour. 

Your mare reacted, what ensued was not the horse's fault, it was you who didn't react automatically with the one rein stop, you have to get so reactions are automatic. 

I recall a girl and I riding out on two three year olds we had just broken. We had had a lovely ride, and were coming off a track onto the road. Big hedge either side of the track. Both of us were relaxed and allowing the horses to walk to the road on a long rein. We stopped and had to wait for a car to come down the hill past us. As we waited so a round bale of straw came rolling down the hill and crashed into the hedge about 25 yards behind us. 

Both horses naturally jumped forward. Turn were stopped before they got onto the road. 

_Automatically with both of us, one hand holding the buckle end of the rein went up and back taking a contact, whilst the other grabbed both reins to stop the forward leap._

Neither horse did more than one stride. That is what you have to learn to do, react automatically so look out for these situations, learn from them so reaction does become automatic.


----------



## thecolorcoal

Foxhunter said:


> QtrBel *well said! Ditto with extra likes. *
> 
> When a horse has problems it is all to easy to make reasons for their behaviour. Fact is that you will never know the real truth about her past.
> 
> Hen I was dealing with remedials I would ask what the horse did or didn't do to make it in need of specialist training. I expected the truth of what it did. I didn't particularly want to know the reason why. It was up to me to solve the problem without excuses for bad behaviour.
> 
> Your mare reacted, what ensued was not the horse's fault, it was you who didn't react automatically with the one rein stop, you have to get so reactions are automatic.
> 
> I recall a girl and I riding out on two three year olds we had just broken. We had had a lovely ride, and were coming off a track onto the road. Big hedge either side of the track. Both of us were relaxed and allowing the horses to walk to the road on a long rein. We stopped and had to wait for a car to come down the hill past us. As we waited so a round bale of straw came rolling down the hill and crashed into the hedge about 25 yards behind us.
> 
> Both horses naturally jumped forward. Turn were stopped before they got onto the road.
> 
> _Automatically with both of us, one hand holding the buckle end of the rein went up and back taking a contact, whilst the other grabbed both reins to stop the forward leap._
> 
> Neither horse did more than one stride. That is what you have to learn to do, react automatically so look out for these situations, learn from them so reaction does become automatic.



Agreed. I have become extremely complacent. The problem is when this horse is good she is so, so good. The bad moments are so rare now that I don't even think about them happening. This is why I was reaching out to HF friends for help. They aren't common anymore, and if the answer is to sit deep and think happy thoughts, when they do happen I am completely taken by surprise and have no time to react.


I don't get enough opportunities to practice stopping these behaviors. Today I think robin and I are going to push the envelope more and try and create situations where these reactions happen so I can learn how to stop them. If I JUST had more opportunities to work on it I KNOW I could do it.


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## mmshiro

thecolorcoal said:


> I can PREDICT AND PREPARE.


It's a prey animal...it goes like "stimulus - reaction", not "stimulus - discuss with rider what to do about it - reach consensus on action". So unless you are able to predict all stimuli you'll encounter outside your four walls and have an action plan ready for those, you got the wrong horse.


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## thecolorcoal

Or we just need more pactice on the trails? Why is the answer always "get a better one?" Why can't it be "deal with what you have?"


In your world everyone has the wrong horse unless they are broke to the point of waiting for death.


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## Avna

thecolorcoal said:


> Agreed. I have become extremely complacent. The problem is when this horse is good she is so, so good. The bad moments are so rare now that I don't even think about them happening. This is why I was reaching out to HF friends for help. They aren't common anymore, and if the answer is to sit deep and think happy thoughts, when they do happen I am completely taken by surprise and have no time to react.
> 
> 
> I don't get enough opportunities to practice stopping these behaviors. Today I think robin and I are going to push the envelope more and try and create situations where these reactions happen so I can learn how to stop them. If I JUST had more opportunities to work on it I KNOW I could do it.




Want to do something sensible? Ride out on trails on a broke trail horse enough that trails don't make you nervous. Meanwhile practice one rein stops with your horse in an arena when she's calm, at different paces. When you are not nervous "outside four walls", and your horse knows what a one rein stop means, and you have gotten excellent at using it, take the next step.

When you go on on a trail ride with this mare, plan on working on her bolting behavior, to the exclusion of any other thing you might want to do. Go out with other riders with very well trained calm horses who understand that you are schooling your horse now, and who are willing to help you do that. 

I can tell that you are not going to give up making up useless romantic narratives about your horse, but at least put them aside when you are actually riding.


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## thecolorcoal

Avna said:


> Want to do something sensible? Ride out on trails on a broke trail horse enough that trails don't make you nervous. Meanwhile practice one rein stops with your horse in an arena when she's calm, at different paces. When you are not nervous "outside four walls", and your horse knows what a one rein stop means, and you have gotten excellent at using it, take the next step.
> 
> When you go on on a trail ride with this mare, plan on working on her bolting behavior, to the exclusion of any other thing you might want to do. Go out with other riders with very well trained calm horses who understand that you are schooling your horse now, and who are willing to help you do that.
> 
> *I can tell that you are not going to give up making up useless romantic narratives about your horse, but at least put them aside when you are actually riding.*



^ haha probably not! xD but i'll try to keep them in my journal and out of the barn and saddle.


I have ridden other horses on the trails and I never once felt out of control. But then again I had no history with those horses. I feel it's different when you have seen what a horse is capable of, especially one you really care about. You never really forget it. You know it's now a potential possibility where as before it might never have even been a thought.


I have PTSD. I'm more than willing to admit that. I think my treatment for the PTSD though is to have enough good experiences and to know I have the tools to keep myself safe. That always has seemed to be what helps.


The problem is I don't feel confident in my toolbox. I know what to do, but my brain and body are not communicating. So I NEED to ride that spooky, bolting, bucking horse, so I have first-hand opportunities to practice and work on what I need to work on to shut it down.


She doesn't act this way in the arena, just on the trails, and so infrequently that it's hard to actually have a moment to work on practicing, because sometimes nothing happens at all, and then other times it happens every step.


Do you at least sort of see why I am frustrated?


----------



## mmshiro

thecolorcoal said:


> Is a GP rider overhorsed when their grand prix mount can't keep it together on a trail ride?
> 
> 
> also, @mmshiro, people who are "overhorsed" should learn to ride better, not sell on.


A GP rider will not fall apart when their horse does - you do. A GP rider will say, "Oh, that was exciting," and continue with the trail ride. A GP rider will know the realities of riding a prey animal in an unpredictable and uncontrolled environment and not expect his mount to react to it like his superior reasoning skills would, like you do. 

A GP rider does not send his horse "memos" about what stage of maturity he should be in by now.

People who try to squeeze horses into a mold that they obviously won't fit in actually aren't just overhorsed, they'll end up abusing the horse.


----------



## thecolorcoal

mmshiro said:


> A GP rider will not fall apart when their horse does - you do. A GP rider will say, "Oh, that was exciting," and continue with the trail ride. A GP rider will know the realities of riding a prey animal in an unpredictable and uncontrolled environment and not expect his mount to react to it like his superior reasoning skills would, like you do.
> 
> A GP rider does not send his horse "memos" about what stage of maturity he should be in by now.
> 
> People who try to squeeze horses into a mold that they obviously won't fit in actually aren't just overhorsed, they'll end up abusing the horse.



So then tell me to rise to the challenge, put my big girl boots on and do it. I think a lot of people are filling in for you in that regard, though! I'm happy I made this thread.


If you are telling me that my mindset is wrong, that's all you have to say. and I will listen. Thinking that I am shutting myself off to alternative possibilities and thoughts just because they aren't mine isn't helping me. Talking to me like I am an actual adult who can meet high expectations might be a better way to get me to listen to you. I might be in my 20s but I am not a kid, and I'd rather be treated like a mature person, not someone who has to get rid of their best friend because she's challenging me too much. 



Maybe the answer is that I need to figure out how to meet these challenges? of which I am working hard to do. Not getting bucked off was a 4-star accomplishment. The more times she bucks and the more times I sit them and stay on, the less I will CARE about the bucking because I _know_ I can sit them.


That is my point - if I know I can handle something I will wait in bated breath and excitement for it to happen JUST so I get that thrill. I used to ride very challenging horses, back when the reality of life and injury wasn't even comprehensible. My reality is a little different. I long to go back to those care-free days at 16 when I would be handed challenging horses and told to ride them, because my seat was good and I was the only one who wouldn't get tossed.


----------



## QtrBel

A Grand Prix rider that has talent, has put in the time and has experience riding different horses will have enough experience to know how to not get or be in trouble with their horse whether in the ring or on the trail. You are confusing riding competence with executing the skill necessary to win at high levels. One has to be competent to execute the skill necessary for high level competition but one does not have to be able to execute those skills to ride competently. Because a Grand Prix rider is first and foremost competent and second able to execute those skills that puts that rider at an entirely different level than where you are at. I would expect them to also be able to handle a horse they are not familiar with even in an unfamiliar territory. Once they have reached that level it is not easy to "overhorse" them.



By "overhorsed" I take it to mean the horse has a personality or training level that is not compatible with your (g) own skills and experience level at a designated event or your personality. 



Give me a single, double, 4 up, random, tandem, unicorn, or up to 4 abreast and I am good. Put them in the dirt, in a ring or on the street. I'm good. Add in another two to the four up and it will depend. But I have the skills with all of the above mentioned so handling a 6 up isn't much of a stretch. Cart, wagon, carriage, sled, ground driving, no problem. Could I be overhorsed? Sure given the right conditions and combination of horses. Am I likely to be, no. Put me up on the Sparrow's 40 horse hitch and I am so far out of my league even overhorsed wouldn't be enough to describe it. Put me on a piece of farm equipment and it isn't the horse/s that worry me but the equipment. So off I went to farm school. For me it was sink or swim and I had no choice in the horses I was working with until much later. I didn't get to that point overnight (read just a few years) nor did I get there with one horse. I still prefer to avoid farm equipment whether it is behind the horse or a tractor but I don't always have that option. That means I have to spend time with it and I've accepted that knowledge of one piece doesn't just translate to every other piece out there. There is always a new learning curve. Without the foundation though that curve just gets bigger and bigger until there comes a point where you have to walk away and start from where you are comfortable.



You're still generalizing. Is it just to make a point or do you truly believe your experience is so black and white? 



You need time, experience and patience along with perseverance and guidance from someone that can help you move forward not backward. You weren't ready to take on this horse. That is not being mean or ignoring the experience you do have. It just is what it is. It is not the best position to be in but once you are there you have to be willing to accept that that is where you are at and work from that point on.


----------



## thecolorcoal

QtrBel said:


> Put me up on the Sparrow's 40 horse hitch and I am so far out of my league even overhorsed wouldn't be enough to describe it.



But you could learn. And the more time you spend working on that hitch the better you will get.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> I have PTSD. I'm more than willing to admit that. I think my treatment for the PTSD though is to have enough good experiences and to know I have the tools to keep myself safe. That always has seemed to be what helps.
> 
> The problem is I don't feel confident in my toolbox. I know what to do, but my brain and body are not communicating. So I NEED to ride that spooky, bolting, bucking horse, so I have first-hand opportunities to practice and work on what I need to work on to shut it down.


No, you don't need to ride that spooky, bolting, bucking horse until you've processed your previous issues that have made you so nervous. Once you do that, AND you've practiced all the stopping and shutting down and learned to control each body part on that horse at all times, THEN you will have the tools to apply to the situation when it arises. Right now, you freeze and as long as you freeze you can not be effective. You learn the skills to shut the horse down when the horse isn't doing anything bad. The horse learns that you have control and that certain cues are to be obeyed no matter what, and then during a freak out, she'll listen because that's her habit.


----------



## thecolorcoal

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> No, you don't need to ride that spooky, bolting, bucking horse until you've processed your previous issues that have made you so nervous. Once you do that, AND you've practiced all the stopping and shutting down and learned to control each body part on that horse at all times, THEN you will have the tools to apply to the situation when it arises. Right now, you freeze and as long as you freeze you can not be effective. You learn the skills to shut the horse down when the horse isn't doing anything bad. The horse learns that you have control and that certain cues are to be obeyed no matter what, and then during a freak out, she'll listen because that's her habit.



You are right, thank you dream and everyone else. I have talked to my trainer friend about all this. She is going to mentor me and help me in the arena. She has a lot of experience dealing with horses like Tyra, more than I do, apparently.


I am hoping I will have good news to report tonight! Again I appreciate everyone's care and concern for me, even those who doubt I am doing the right thing by keeping this horse. It is OK for you to think that and I understand why, but I am not someone who gives up just because it is too hard at the moment. Throw me into the deep end. I hate being babied. I'd rather learn to swim in a sea of sharks than sit contently in a kiddie pool.


That's just me.


----------



## mmshiro

thecolorcoal said:


> If you are telling me that my mindset is wrong, that's all you have to say. and I will listen.


Your mindset is wrong. On the one side you are talking about learning to handle your horse's reactions, on the other side you are talking about how you are frustrated with your horse for having those very reactions. You say you find dead broke horses boring, but you send your horse memos that she should be dead broke by now. You have yet to understand the following:

- Horses in an unpredictable environment will do unpredictable things.
- That is not a bug, it's a feature.
- There is nothing wrong with your horse to send her memos about or call the cowboys in.
- Your default mindset is fear. You ride a breed that is extra sensitive by nature - that too is a feature, not a bug. You are an explosive mixture.

So here's your new mindset: "There is nothing wrong with my horse. I ride a sensitive horse that picks up on any insecurity I have. She also will react more strongly to unexpected environmental stimuli. Unless I become centered and calm, showing her by *my* not worrying that there is nothing to worry about, I am heading for a crash, or I'm done leaving the arena."

Since the entire thread is about "fixing your horse", you clearly do have the wrong horse.

I embrace a certain amount of shenanigans by the horse, I don't call it "the horse falling apart on the trail". That's your mind set right now: Anything that the horse does which does not fit into your preconceived idea of what the horse *should* do is "falling apart", "behavior problem", "needs to be fixed, shut down so it never happens again," etc. 

She's "bolting" at a measured lope, for crying out loud. How about you just ride the canter, and then do a down transition to a trot instead of ripping her head around to bring her to a dead stop. The first time I had a serious bolt - a sensitive warmblood surprised by two kids running their sleds down on crunchy, icy snow screaming on the top of their lungs - he did a 180º and ran. You know what I did? Nothing. For two to three seconds I just rode him to let him get to his perceived area of safety, _then_ I started "talking" to him, bringing him back down. Turned him around, went past the same spot, continued with my ride. I knew I was getting on a sensitive horse, and I knew there would be _a few_ spooks on that ride. I was also a rider that could get him to relax and lower his head, and the _still_ got his loose reins when he earned them.

I wonder how much contact you have with your horse in order to create the illusion of control?


----------



## thecolorcoal

mmshiro said:


> She's "bolting" at a measured lope, for crying out loud. How about you just ride the canter, and then do a down transition to a trot instead of ripping her head around to bring her to a dead stop. The first time I had a serious bolt - a sensitive warmblood surprised by two kids running their sleds down on crunchy, icy snow screaming on the top of their lungs - he did a 180º and ran. You know what I did? Nothing. For two to three seconds I just rode him to let him get to his perceived area of safety, _then_ I started "talking" to him, bringing him back down. Turned him around, went past the same spot, continued with my ride. I knew I was getting on a sensitive horse, and I knew there would be _a few_ spooks on that ride. I was also a rider that could get him to relax and lower his head, and the _still_ got his loose reins when he earned them.



That's what I am saying. It wasn't a bolt, it was just a canter. I've actually only ridden a real bolt a handful of times, and not many. She has NEVER EVER EVER done the downright blind run. She is _NOT_ a demonic, terrible, terrifying horse. She is not crazy. She is not awful. She is not hard to manage! Mmshiro I am sure if you sat on her you would find her easy and be questioning why I am making such a fuss. Because she IS easy. _She is_.


Until she's not. 



And those "not" moments are so sparse and so rare. They used to be all the time. I used to be very good at managing them because they were often, and I had experience. Now they are rare. And because they are rare I have been deluded into thinking they can't ever happen. I am so spoiled by Good Horse that I don't have the skills to deal with Bad Horse. I never have to ride defensively anymore. I never have to be on guard, and when I DO mentally anticipate things ACTUALLY happen, so it's a double edged sword. If I just remove trouble from my mind and ride as if everything is perfect, rarely do instances pop up.


Alone we have no problems. It's when a second horse is added when the trouble starts.


It's NOT the trail riding that is the problem it is the GROUP riding. Multiple horses. And if you still say "she is a thoroughbred IT'S JUST THE WAY IT IS!!!!!!" then that's that. It's just the way it is. and the answer is *deal with it.*

If this was 50% of the time, even 75% of the time, I would agree with you and think about either retiring her or selling her or rehoming her. But it's 2% of the time. 2%!!!!! That doesn't say i'm overhorsed, only overhorsed in that 2% situation. and if I can ride her 98% of the time with no issues, that's not enough to sell on or get rid of.


I think everyone thinks this behavior is consistent and questioning why I am struggling. it's not. it happens in very, very, VERY specific situations. She is like no horse i've ever ridden. Things that scare most normal horses she just blinks an eye at, Things that normally wouldn't bother even the spookiest of warmbloods she has a fit over, like being 5 feet away from a horse jogging at a snail's crawl in front of us, or passing by a junk pile we were able to get by by ourselves but suddenly are threatened by because Missy just happens to be part of the herd today.


----------



## Kalraii

I think the problem is you in a literal sense, not as an insult. I observe this a lot ESPECIALLY when teaching people how to interact with animals for the first time. They are often thinking, "me me me me me me"

"I don't want to get hurt" "I don't want to go fast" "I want this to stop" "I don't want to get scratched" "Get this thing off of me" "I need this experience" "I need to get better" "I should be able to do this" "If I don't do this people will judge me" "I'm gonna be famous!" "I want to be special" "I think this is gross"

You know how many times I've had to scream at the person to just SHUT UP and LOOK at the animal, pay attention to it, it'll tell you all you need to know! Well funny thing is they aren't experienced at controlling _themselves_ so it's usually quite futile for me to ask anything of them those first few times hehe. And now that I think about it I guess that is the problem. You are struggling, in the heat of the moment, to control yourself which obviously doesn't give Tyra confidence. Credit to her then, for being as good as she is with such a nervous rider. Another thing that makes her amazing! When we would have to go fetch a crocodile for a vet visit we didn't have time to think "I don't want to die. I don't want to get bitten". We had to use ALL OUR ENERGY to look at that animal see what it is telling us, right then. Because if we missed anything well. Y'know  Same with any animal small or large. I think you spend far too much time thinking about what you do and don't want instead of what IS and what Tyra is telling you.

If only it was as easy to tell you to go practice being calm in high strung situations at high speeds. With all due respect police officers don't target practice on living people before they qualify. The military don't practice diffusing real live bombs from the get-go. You don't ask someone who cannot swim to scuba dive the reef. You don't ask a person who has never ridden to complete a top tier eventers course? And, usually, you don't put nervous riders who have control issues on nervous OTTB's. You certainly don't ask them to "practice bolting and bucking".

You are defying the norm. Tyra is an angel, I really do believe that. I believe this is why you are so attached. You've proven so far that there is hope because at some points you have met each other in the middle. I really hope you don't take this post the wrong way. Some of the harshest lessons I've had were in a private zoo learning about working with big cats and bears provided for filmwork. I had to sign a contract that if I die it was my own heckin fault. I got berated and shouted at many times for not reading a situation correctly or quick enough, often for being distracted or complacent. 

Other than Tyra bolting or bucking what stresses you out? Is there a phobia you have or something that really distracts you that you can try to better learn self-control? This is usually a good place to start in terms of *learning how to deal with stressful situations* and with professional help if need be. And remember, humans vary in temperaments just as humans do. I really hate mushrooms. Nothing anyone does is gonna change that


----------



## thecolorcoal

Kalraii said:


> I think the problem is you in a literal sense, not as an insult. I observe this a lot ESPECIALLY when teaching people how to interact with animals for the first time. They are often thinking, "me me me me me me"
> 
> "I don't want to get hurt" "I don't want to go fast" "I want this to stop" "I don't want to get scratched" "Get this thing off of me" "I need this experience" "I need to get better" "I should be able to do this" "If I don't do this people will judge me" "I'm gonna be famous!" "I want to be special" "I think this is gross"
> 
> You know how many times I've had to scream at the person to just SHUT UP and LOOK at the animal, pay attention to it, it'll tell you all you need to know! Well funny thing is they aren't experienced at controlling _themselves_ so it's usually quite futile for me to ask anything of them those first few times hehe. And now that I think about it I guess that is the problem. You are struggling, in the heat of the moment, to control yourself which obviously doesn't give Tyra confidence.* Credit to her then, for being as good as she is with such a nervous rider. Another thing that makes her amazing!* When we would have to go fetch a crocodile for a vet visit we didn't have time to think "I don't want to die. I don't want to get bitten". We had to use ALL OUR ENERGY to look at that animal see what it is telling us, right then. Because if we missed anything well. Y'know  Same with any animal small or large. I think you spend far too much time thinking about what you do and don't want instead of what IS and what Tyra is telling you.
> 
> If only it was as easy to tell you to go practice being calm in high strung situations at high speeds. With all due respect police officers don't target practice on living people before they qualify. The military don't practice diffusing real live bombs from the get-go. You don't ask someone who cannot swim to scuba dive the reef. You don't ask a person who has never ridden to complete a top tier eventers course? And, usually, you don't put nervous riders who have control issues on nervous OTTB's. You certainly don't ask them to "practice bolting and bucking".
> 
> You are defying the norm. Tyra is an angel, I really do believe that. I believe this is why you are so attached. You've proven so far that there is hope because at some points you have met each other in the middle. I really hope you don't take this post the wrong way. Some of the harshest lessons I've had were in a private zoo learning about working with big cats and bears provided for filmwork. I had to sign a contract that if I die it was my own heckin fault. I got berated and shouted at many times for not reading a situation correctly or quick enough, often for being distracted or complacent.
> 
> Other than Tyra bolting or bucking what stresses you out? Is there a phobia you have or something that really distracts you that you can try to better learn self-control? This is usually a good place to start in terms of *learning how to deal with stressful situations* and with professional help if need be. And remember, humans vary in temperaments just as humans do. I really hate mushrooms. Nothing anyone does is gonna change that



AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why I love her. No horse would be this kind and this compassionate and this concerned for me. She really goes out of her way to help me out. She doesn't have to, she could just never let me on her back again. But she doesn't, and I have to thank her for that, because I know I am not the best rider for her but she tries for me anyway. I've never ridden a horse who actually extended themselves THIS FAR for their rider. It is magical, and that might be where some of the "romance" comes from. 



My phobia is that I won't be able to stay on. I am terrified of falling off on the trail. Absolutely petrified. THAT is my main fear. The bolting/bucking/spinning/spooking I would be 100% ok with if falling off wasn't a big deal.


I've NEVER fallen off on the trail. The last time I came off of Tyra I was seriously hurt. I've probably been bucked off of her over 10 times but every time wasn't that bad of a fall. This fall was serious and it ruined me. It was absolutely my fault but I'll never forget how EASY she got me off. Usually I can sit 6-8 bucks in a row. One buck, one spin, and I was thrown out of the saddle.


But again I was 50 lbs heavier. I am smaller and lighter now and while I know that has changed a lot about how I ride, the memory of so easily being dislodged is traumatic at best. I am constantly having to remind myself that no, I can sit those 6-8 bucks again at 120#. I can. I just need to remind myself I can and not believe I am that fragile anymore.


----------



## mmshiro

thecolorcoal said:


> Things that scare most normal horses she just blinks an eye at, Things that normally wouldn't bother even the spookiest of warmbloods she has a fit over, like being 5 feet away from a horse jogging at a snail's crawl in front of us, or passing by a junk pile we were able to get by by ourselves but suddenly are threatened by because Missy just happens to be part of the herd today.


Well, whatever she spooks at makes sense to her, that's all that counts. In the end, it doesn't matter to you whether it's a plastic bag or a sparrow fluttering from the bushes or an old hay bale. Just because you can sympathize with one kind of spook over another doesn't make either any more predictable, and you have to deal with it either way. 

So in 2% of all rides, with other horses, she may amuse herself by spooking at a funny looking rock, a rock that you didn't find funny looking at all. She then leisurely canters - out of control - for about 5 yards, just until she's on the next horse's tail. ("Wait for me! Wait for me!") 

That's...well... :shrug: It really is par for the course, and while you are more than welcome to work on it - it is certainly worthwhile doing, you should really get over being "FRUSTRATED!!!" about it.


Also, what exactly causes the _bucking_? A horse that desperately wants to catch up seems unlikely to first engage in a bucking fit, lest someone is hanging on her face trying to stop her, hard. 

Just remember: According to you, once this is fixed, she's gonna be dead broke, and you'll probably tire of her.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is why I love her. No horse would be this kind and this compassionate and this concerned for me. She really goes out of her way to help me out. She doesn't have to, she could just never let me on her back again. But she doesn't, and I have to thank her for that, because I know I am not the best rider for her but she tries for me anyway. I've never ridden a horse who actually extended themselves THIS FAR for their rider. It is magical, and that might be where some of the "romance" comes from.
> 
> 
> 
> My phobia is that I won't be able to stay on. I am terrified of falling off on the trail. Absolutely petrified. THAT is my main fear. The bolting/bucking/spinning/spooking I would be 100% ok with if falling off wasn't a big deal.
> 
> 
> I've NEVER fallen off on the trail. The last time I came off of Tyra I was seriously hurt. I've probably been bucked off of her over 10 times but every time wasn't that bad of a fall. This fall was serious and it ruined me. It was absolutely my fault but I'll never forget how EASY she got me off. Usually I can sit 6-8 bucks in a row. One buck, one spin, and I was thrown out of the saddle.
> 
> 
> But again I was 50 lbs heavier. I am smaller and lighter now and while I know that has changed a lot about how I ride, the memory of so easily being dislodged is traumatic at best. I am constantly having to remind myself that no, I can sit those 6-8 bucks again at 120#. I can. I just need to remind myself I can and not believe I am that fragile anymore.


I'm going to reiterate PTSD counseling with somone who does EMDR. It's amazing how fast it helps and gets you through processing the trauma and back to building confidence. My trainer can't believe the difference just 6 months has made in me. 6 months ago I was grateful to get on Snickers, her beginner "don't care what you do I won't get upset and I'm not going faster than a walk" horse. Even just climbing the mounting block I was shaking so hard I nearly fell off and crying my eyes out. Just touching him scared me. Today I'm back on Patti, who is so much like Tyra it's not funny. The difference is, I KNOW I have the tools. I KNOW I can ride out what she dishes. I KNOW at some point I'm going to fall off again and I'll survive it just fine. Patti is my angel and my rock. She is my Steady Edith. Until she's not. And even then, she isn't BAD, she just gets UP and high headed and occasionally squirts under me. All stuff we both know I can ride out. 

I have fallen off on trail at least a million times. and 999,999 of those times it was all my fault and had nothing to do with the horse. I'd get complacent or I forgot to put on his breast collar (on a horse with no withers). I'd remember about the time we'd go around something at speed and the saddle would slip and I'd be riding upside down. Thank God for helmets. EVERY fall I've done on the trail was better than ones I've done in the arena because I'm not jumping 6 ft out on the trail. I'm not usually trying to do something at top speed out on trail, and the duff around the trees makes good cushion. 

When you're more confident in your 'bag o tricks' go out on the trail and just pick a spot and fall off. Get it over with. Then you won't be so afraid. Put a 'git down' rope on Tyra and have a friend hold her while you fall off, so you won't have to walk home. It's really not all that bad.


----------



## thecolorcoal

mmshiro said:


> Well, whatever she spooks at makes sense to her, that's all that counts. In the end, it doesn't matter to you whether it's a plastic bag or a sparrow fluttering from the bushes or an old hay bale. Just because you can sympathize with one kind of spook over another doesn't make either any more predictable, and you have to deal with it either way.
> 
> So in 2% of all rides, with other horses, she may amuse herself by spooking at a funny looking rock, a rock that you didn't find funny looking at all. She then leisurely canters - out of control - for about 5 yards, just until she's on the next horse's tail. ("Wait for me! Wait for me!")
> 
> That's...well... :shrug: It really is par for the course, and while you are more than welcome to work on it - it is certainly worthwhile doing, you should really get over being "FRUSTRATED!!!" about it.
> 
> 
> Also, what exactly causes the _bucking_? A horse that desperately wants to catch up seems unlikely to first engage in a bucking fit, lest someone is hanging on her face trying to stop her, hard.
> 
> Just remember: According to you, once this is fixed, she's gonna be dead broke, and you'll probably tire of her.



Thanks Mmshiro <3 I know you speak with the toughest of truths but I still have to thank you for your wisdom.


It's just the bucking to catch up that throws me. What I have been told, per trainers, is if I remain relaxed and a reliable force she will stop doing this. What I have been told, per ottb people, is it's just the way these horses are. There is no "fix," you just go with it and work around the quirk. So who is right? This is where I get "FRUSTRATED!!!!!!!!" because I'm getting 2 different opinions on how to fix the problem - one side says it is curable, the other side says it is only manageable.


As an OTTB rider, what do you say on this?

@Dreamcatcher Arabians - I HAVE ACTUALLY DONE THIS! i did this over a jump once, purposefully dislodged myself just to get over the fear of falling off at a jump. One and done, now I don't care and know how to NOT fall off.


I think this is a brilliant hairbrained idea. I might actually go for it. I need to experience the experience so it's over and done with and then I can stop worrying.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> Thanks Mmshiro <3 I know you speak with the toughest of truths but I still have to thank you for your wisdom.
> 
> 
> It's just the bucking to catch up that throws me. What I have been told, per trainers, is if I remain relaxed and a reliable force she will stop doing this. What I have been told, per ottb people, is it's just the way these horses are. There is no "fix," you just go with it and work around the quirk. So who is right? This is where I get "FRUSTRATED!!!!!!!!" because I'm getting 2 different opinions on how to fix the problem - one side says it is curable, the other side says it is only manageable.
> 
> 
> As an OTTB rider, what do you say on this?


They're both right. You're hanging on her face when she goes to try to catch up, she gets upset and bucks. So, if you will relax and stay calm and out of her face, because I PROMISE you you have a death grip on her even if you don't think so, she will eventually quit the bucking because she won't be upset. She will probably ALWAYS want to try to play catch up. So you need to see it coming and push her forward BEFORE she wants to run through your hands, so that when she even THINKS of running off, she's already working. And then you keep her working past the point where she says, "I don't WANNA". She'll never be low and slow though, it's just not her nature. So you're going to have to up your skills and energy so that you can take what she offers and go with it.


----------



## QtrBel

I'll ride outrider position, thank you very much.... 4 to 6 is doable. 4 to 40? Takes more than I have to offer. I know when to quit. 



I've been up in the box with **** (RIP) and he is one I can give part credit to where I am today. I know my limitations. I also know that I am the reason for them in the first place whether by accident or design. Not to say in a pinch I couldn't surprise myself but I'm not going out looking for that. My fears stem from bending over to put feed in a pot and coming to 8 foot away. It took 8 hours to reconstruct the damage done. I have flashbacks, and they come when I least expect them. 



Like DreamcatherArabians has said (at least I think it was she) riding is 90% muscle memory and 10% head games. Until you get past you because you are your own stumbling block you aren't going to help her. Practice, practice and more practice on her in an environment you feel safe and in control doing the things that teach her that A is the expected response when you do X, Y or Z not B or C or D,E,F,G and get on another horse to ride the trails until that becomes your new comfort zone. RIDE. Actively ride. You can be a passenger when someone else has the reins but not when they are in your hands - never, ever can you just be a passenger when the reins are in your hands without opening the door to disaster. Not even on Horsus deadus brokacus. Not even when he is in the middle of the pack of nose to tail H.d var. b though your chances do drop dramatically. If that is the ride you are after then no shame going out and enjoying that experience. I love a ride like that where I can experience nature and see the sights without too much worry. 



When I was much younger (more than 20 years) I had a mare that I could go out and watch the stars laying on her back while she grazed. Draft mare, slow as molasses 99% of the time. I've done just about all you can do on a horse or behind a horse with her. The day I met her though it was fear that forged our relationship. She was one that loved to "play" and by play I mean challenge anything that came into her pasture by running them (human or animal or vehicle for that matter) down and throwing them over the fence or in the case of vehicle turning it into something vaguely resembling a crushed aluminum can. I was caught totally unaware and froze. She stopped inches from where I was standing. We were both surprised. Me that something that big could stop that short and her that I did not turn tail and run to continue the "game". She quite literally took my husband into her grave. Tractor and all. Luckily he survived. She was a once in a lifetime horse. But there was never a day that I expected her to take the reins, nor did I offer them up. I respected what she had to say and listened to her opinion but she never did what she wanted without my OK. 



I get where you are coming from.


----------



## thecolorcoal

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> They're both right. You're hanging on her face when she goes to try to catch up, she gets upset and bucks. So, if you will relax and stay calm and out of her face, because I PROMISE you you have a death grip on her even if you don't think so, she will eventually quit the bucking because she won't be upset. She will probably ALWAYS want to try to play catch up. So you need to see it coming and push her forward BEFORE she wants to run through your hands, so that when she even THINKS of running off, she's already working. And then you keep her working past the point where she says, "I don't WANNA". She'll never be low and slow though, it's just not her nature. So you're going to have to up your skills and energy so that you can take what she offers and go with it.



Ok. that's what i wanted to know. We have been coming at this as "we need to MAKE her stand when horses go ahead of her," but if we know for a fact this is just not what Tyra's going to let us do, catching up to other horses is the solution and I can HANDLE that. it's the "make her do it, make her do it," when the explosions begin because she doesn't want to do it. And if I allow her to catch up? no bucking. Not even a bolt. She will stop and start on a loose rein, taking her direction by the horse in front of her. I don't even have to cue her. But if I try and dictate the pace when the horses in front of us are doing something different, that is when she gets upset.


I have been told my many trainers that I must, must, must not feed into her and force her to do what I WANT. I have been told by ottb owners that this is stupid and not going to accomplish anything, and that the best way to stay harmonious with this horse is just to give her that one instance of control, as even when she gets fast she isn't going to try and lose me, she is literally _just _doing what she was bred to do, so who am I to tell her she can't?


That's where this thread is coming from. Do I MAKE her or GO with her?


----------



## QtrBel

@Kalraii
" When we would have to go fetch a crocodile for a vet visit we didn't have time to think "I don't want to die. I don't want to get bitten". We had to use ALL OUR ENERGY to look at that animal see what it is telling us, right then. Because if we missed anything well. Y'know "


How about the intruder trying to rob a house and when the alarm goes off decides the place to hide is in the weeds under the dock. Guess what he missed and where he is today. It's funny but it's not. Look before you leap type lesson.


----------



## thecolorcoal

QtrBel said:


> I'll ride outrider position, thank you very much.... 4 to 6 is doable. 4 to 40? Takes more than I have to offer. I know when to quit.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been up in the box with **** (RIP) and he is one I can give part credit to where I am today. I know my limitations. I also know that I am the reason for them in the first place whether by accident or design. Not to say in a pinch I couldn't surprise myself but I'm not going out looking for that. My fears stem from bending over to put feed in a pot and coming to 8 foot away. It took 8 hours to reconstruct the damage done. I have flashbacks, and they come when I least expect them.
> 
> 
> 
> Like DreamcatherArabians has said (at least I think it was she) riding is 90% muscle memory and 10% head games. Until you get past you because you are your own stumbling block you aren't going to help her. Practice, practice and more practice on her in an environment you feel safe and in control doing the things that teach her that A is the expected response when you do X, Y or Z not B or C or D,E,F,G and get on another horse to ride the trails until that becomes your new comfort zone. RIDE. Actively ride. You can be a passenger when someone else has the reins but not when they are in your hands - never, ever can you just be a passenger when the reins are in your hands without opening the door to disaster. Not even on Horsus deadus brokacus. Not even when he is in the middle of the pack of nose to tail H.d var. b though your chances do drop dramatically. If that is the ride you are after then no shame going out and enjoying that experience. I love a ride like that where I can experience nature and see the sights without too much worry.
> 
> 
> 
> When I was much younger (more than 20 years) I had a mare that I could go out and watch the stars laying on her back while she grazed. Draft mare, slow as molasses 99% of the time. I've done just about all you can do on a horse or behind a horse with her. The day I met her though it was fear that forged our relationship. She was one that loved to "play" and by play I mean challenge anything that came into her pasture by running them (human or animal or vehicle for that matter) down and throwing them over the fence or in the case of vehicle turning it into something vaguely resembling a crushed aluminum can. I was caught totally unaware and froze. She stopped inches from where I was standing. We were both surprised. Me that something that big could stop that short and her that I did not turn tail and run to continue the "game". She quite literally took my husband into her grave. Tractor and all. Luckily he survived. She was a once in a lifetime horse. But there was never a day that I expected her to take the reins, nor did I offer them up. I respected what she had to say and listened to her opinion but she never did what she wanted without my OK.
> 
> 
> 
> I get where you are coming from.



Thanks Qtrbel <3 it seems to be a delicate balance. I promise you this is the last "vice" she has. it's just this gosh darn group trail riding! So frustrating... i'd love to go out with others but we can't seem to replicate our solo rides. And it's a lot of me too, and I don't get a second to be hesitant. She knows when I am lying too, I can't pretend to be brave because she sees right through me. She certainly challenges me, but I have grown tremendously as a person thanks to her.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> Ok. that's what i wanted to know. We have been coming at this as "we need to MAKE her stand when horses go ahead of her," but if we know for a fact this is just not what Tyra's going to let us do, catching up to other horses is the solution and I can HANDLE that. it's the "make her do it, make her do it," when the explosions begin because she doesn't want to do it. And if I allow her to catch up? no bucking. Not even a bolt. She will stop and start on a loose rein, taking her direction by the horse in front of her. I don't even have to cue her. But if I try and dictate the pace when the horses in front of us are doing something different, that is when she gets upset.
> 
> 
> I have been told my many trainers that I must, must, must not feed into her and force her to do what I WANT. I have been told by ottb owners that this is stupid and not going to accomplish anything, and that the best way to stay harmonious with this horse is just to give her that one instance of control, as even when she gets fast she isn't going to try and lose me, she is literally _just _doing what she was bred to do, so who am I to tell her she can't?
> 
> 
> That's where this thread is coming from. Do I MAKE her or GO with her?


Well, it's kind of both again. I know she probably bows up when she's getting ready to go play catch up. The SECOND she bows up, make her go. Let everyone know what you're going to do so nobody gets taken by surprise. 

If the horse in front is doing a fair jog, then you put her in an extended trot and pass that horse up and stay there. Then bring her down to a working trot but keep her moving. Go up to a canter (if you're comfortable with it), then down a trot, down to a walk, back up to a trot and extend it, then collect it and extend it and....,,ad nauseum until she's begging to quit and then go 5 mins more. EVERY single time. 

She will soon get the idea that doing the catch up game isn't all it's cracked up to be but she's always going to want to be in the pack, so put her there. 


Don't offer to ride drag, a lot of horses get VERY anxious when they're the last. 

Let her be leader and set the pace, but make sure it's one that's going to make her work harder than she would have offered initially, so when you say it's ok to slow down and maybe go 2nd or 3rd, it will be a good idea to her. 

Once you've established the whoa, the half halt, the seat halt and then have her in control on the actual ride, you can start working on getting her independent of the "herd" by doing the serpentines and such. Do it just a foot at a time and close back up ranks before she gets unhappy and after a while, she will be ok with riding with decent distance between horses and she'll be gaining confidence. A horse like Tyra, who is fearful, is actually the easiest to train if you can work her past the fear first. Once she's past the fear, her native intelligence will take over and her type A personality will make sure she does a good job.


----------



## SteadyOn

Do you ever practice different emergency stops and other strategies in the ring? Speaking as someone who shuts down when I'm even slightly unnerved about something in the saddle, drilling these things in a calm controlled way, at slow speeds, so that they're part of your muscle memory is going to help at least somewhat. Teaching yourself a mental cue followed by a sequence of actions is going to better prepare you to do them in an intense situation.

I often mentally and physically go through the motions of what I'd do if, say, I got badly out of balance. Which for me would be to open one hand and let the rein slip while I grab the pommel. If I practice that enough it'll become instinct to do it if I get somewhat unseated. Mentally or verbally exclaim a cue word and start the sequence. (My cue word would probably start with an S or an F and is something I shouldn't type here.) 

Even mentally going through them, or miming them, will still help prepare you to actually do them. Whether it's a one-rein stop or a pulley rein or an emergency dismount... Practicing it to some degree when you're not in a panic will help you when you are!


----------



## KigerQueen

my arab is a bolter. turned out to be a pain issue. was the first symptom of her downward spiral. now that i have resolved her hoof issues she is being ridden by the ranch hand (who is ALOT lighter than me and makes a living working with "problem" horses. she did try to bolt at first but once she realized she did not her and he let her make a couple laps around the arena she settled right down and was the horse i got all thoughs years ago. Bolting has nothing to do with trust. it is parshaly a training or pain issue. odie started bolting because his back was out. Rocket "bolts" because he thinks trails are for racing... yeah he has not gotten away with that in 8 years but he darn well tries lol!


----------



## thecolorcoal

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Well, it's kind of both again. I know she probably bows up when she's getting ready to go play catch up. The SECOND she bows up, make her go. Let everyone know what you're going to do so nobody gets taken by surprise.
> 
> If the horse in front is doing a fair jog, then you put her in an extended trot and pass that horse up and stay there. Then bring her down to a working trot but keep her moving. Go up to a canter (if you're comfortable with it), then down a trot, down to a walk, back up to a trot and extend it, then collect it and extend it and....,,ad nauseum until she's begging to quit and then go 5 mins more. EVERY single time.
> 
> She will soon get the idea that doing the catch up game isn't all it's cracked up to be but she's always going to want to be in the pack, so put her there.
> 
> 
> Don't offer to ride drag, a lot of horses get VERY anxious when they're the last.
> 
> Let her be leader and set the pace, but make sure it's one that's going to make her work harder than she would have offered initially, so when you say it's ok to slow down and maybe go 2nd or 3rd, it will be a good idea to her.
> 
> Once you've established the whoa, the half halt, the seat halt and then have her in control on the actual ride, you can start working on getting her independent of the "herd" by doing the serpentines and such. Do it just a foot at a time and close back up ranks before she gets unhappy and after a while, she will be ok with riding with decent distance between horses and she'll be gaining confidence. A horse like Tyra, who is fearful, is actually the easiest to train if you can work her past the fear first. Once she's past the fear, her native intelligence will take over and her type A personality will make sure she does a good job.



Thanks dreamy this is a huge help. Tonight after work we are going to tackle the trail again. I am absolutely determined, down to my bones, to master this, if not for her for me. My anxieties are annoying and what happened was almost a year ago. I have to get over it. I was once such a brave rider. I was the one who taught Tyra HOW to be brave. What happened to me??


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> That's where this thread is coming from. Do I MAKE her or GO with her?


You know what? You're bringing back memories of various trail challenges that I've had to work through on different horses. A friend of mine had a LOVELY Fox trotter named Aubrey and Aubie was a sweet, sweet mare and gorgeous too. But she was always as hot as a 3 dollar pistol on the way out from camp. My friend used to have a death grip on her face, to the point where one day I couldn't take it any more because she bloodied that poor mare's mouth with a %*%* snaffle bit. So I got her to switch horses and she rode old Luckster, who had plenty of go if you wanted him to but plenty of no if that's what you wanted. So, I'd go out about 1/2 hr ahead of her and I'd ride Aubie for all she was worth, no hands because at that point she was just bracing for the pain and still going out h*ll for leather. So, we just did seat and legs. In about 1/2 hr, I'd start working her on various figures, going around and over obstacles, through streams, open and close gates, you name it, we did it. And by the time my friend caught up, Aubie would be tired and ready to walk. That mare could WALK, man, she could walk and cover some ground. She was over 16 hh and old Luckster was 14.1 on a big day. But he kept up with her, heck, he could pass her up if he wanted to. And we'd finish the ride and we'd all be happy. Sometimes you just have to give them something. The more she hung on that horse's face, the more anxious she got and the faster she wanted to go. When I would throw away the reins and sit back and as another friend put it, "Would read a book, smoke a cigarette and drink a beer" the mare would relax and all would be good.


----------



## thecolorcoal

KigerQueen said:


> my arab is a bolter. turned out to be a pain issue. was the first symptom of her downward spiral. now that i have resolved her hoof issues she is being ridden by the ranch hand (who is ALOT lighter than me and makes a living working with "problem" horses. she did try to bolt at first but once she realized she did not her and he let her make a couple laps around the arena she settled right down and was the horse i got all thoughs years ago. Bolting has nothing to do with trust. it is parshaly a training or pain issue. odie started bolting because his back was out. Rocket "bolts" because he thinks trails are for racing... yeah he has not gotten away with that in 8 years but he darn well tries lol!



It's not a true bolt, it's cantering after a horse who is too far ahead for her liking. I've looked at ALL the pain possibilities. Everything. This has nothing to do with discomfort. This has to do with her not feeling safe without her buddy.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> Thanks dreamy this is a huge help. Tonight after work we are going to tackle the trail again. I am absolutely determined, down to my bones, to master this, if not for her for me. My anxieties are annoying and what happened was almost a year ago. I have to get over it. I was once such a brave rider. I was the one who taught Tyra HOW to be brave. What happened to me??


You had trauma. And it does some hideous things to your head. I was the kid that everyone always said, "Go get Pat, she can ride it." and if I could get a leg over it I would ride the hair off of it. I'm never going to be that kid again (61 now, not 14) but I'm determined not to be that fearful rider who can't leave base camp. It's all a work in progress and will take time to fix. Do you know my barn went out on one of my favorite trail rides yesterday and I stayed home? Do you know how bad that killed me? But at this point, I'm not willing to risk another bad ride that will take me back into my fear zone. I'm coming back into my confidence zone and I cherish being there. I'm going to ride in my first show in 3 years at the end of the month, I'm not going to let anything make me not want to do it. My accidents were between 3-5 years ago, and the only reason they weren't any closer is because I couldn't get on a horse (for a year, physically and then for 2 mentally). I'm not jeopardizing my riding joy for anything right now. I WILL go back out on trail, actually that doesn't cause me the anxiety that riding in a ring full of other riders and horses does. Just not yet.


----------



## mmshiro

thecolorcoal said:


> Thanks Mmshiro <3 I know you speak with the toughest of truths but I still have to thank you for your wisdom.
> 
> 
> It's just the bucking to catch up that throws me. What I have been told, per trainers, is if I remain relaxed and a reliable force she will stop doing this. What I have been told, per ottb people, is it's just the way these horses are. There is no "fix," you just go with it and work around the quirk. So who is right? This is where I get "FRUSTRATED!!!!!!!!" because I'm getting 2 different opinions on how to fix the problem - one side says it is curable, the other side says it is only manageable.
> As an OTTB rider, what do you say on this?


Marion, one of my mares, if the weather was cool and she was in a good mood, would throw little happy bucks (dipping her head and kicking her hind legs out sideways, not to dislodge me) when I let her go fast for the first time in a ride. I learned that one quickly...until she got those out of her system, I refrained from riding her fast in two-point... I also noticed it's hard to buck running uphill. Other than these work-arounds, I never did anything about it other than bringing her head up and telling her to cut it out. That's just who she was. She was a knucklehead, but less demanding physically than my other mare, Dita. Instead of carefully sliding down ravines, she was athletic enough to hop and skip down - also good for getting those hip adductors nice and strong so you're not enjoying the walk of shame home...

If she bucks, shut her down and send her forwards. If she wants to go forward, let her. Horses that go forward don't go up. Maybe once she realizes you will let her go forward, the bucking will stop, too.


----------



## thecolorcoal

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> You know what? You're bringing back memories of various trail challenges that I've had to work through on different horses. A friend of mine had a LOVELY Fox trotter named Aubrey and Aubie was a sweet, sweet mare and gorgeous too. But she was always as hot as a 3 dollar pistol on the way out from camp. My friend used to have a death grip on her face, to the point where one day I couldn't take it any more because she bloodied that poor mare's mouth with a %*%* snaffle bit. So I got her to switch horses and she rode old Luckster, who had plenty of go if you wanted him to but plenty of no if that's what you wanted. So, I'd go out about 1/2 hr ahead of her and I'd ride Aubie for all she was worth, no hands because at that point she was just bracing for the pain and still going out h*ll for leather. So, we just did seat and legs. In about 1/2 hr, I'd start working her on various figures, going around and over obstacles, through streams, open and close gates, you name it, we did it. And by the time my friend caught up, Aubie would be tired and ready to walk. That mare could WALK, man, she could walk and cover some ground. She was over 16 hh and old Luckster was 14.1 on a big day. But he kept up with her, heck, he could pass her up if he wanted to. And we'd finish the ride and we'd all be happy. Sometimes you just have to give them something. The more she hung on that horse's face, the more anxious she got and the faster she wanted to go. When I would throw away the reins and sit back and as another friend put it, "Would read a book, smoke a cigarette and drink a beer" the mare would relax and all would be good.



This is so accurate! Tyra is like that too. It's the minute I take contact where she's like "? wait ok something's happening... what's happening? I feel her in my mouth. Uh oh is everything ok? Why's she nervous? What's out there? What does she see? I don't see it. Where is it?!" And then we panic...


----------



## thecolorcoal

mmshiro said:


> Marion, one of my mares, if the weather was cool and she was in a good mood, would throw little happy bucks (dipping her head and kicking her hind legs out sideways, not to dislodge me) when I let her go fast for the first time in a ride. I learned that one quickly...until she got those out of her system, I refrained from riding her fast in two-point... I also noticed it's hard to buck running uphill. Other than these work-arounds, I never did anything about it other than bringing her head up and telling her to cut it out. That's just who she was. She was a knucklehead, but less demanding physically than my other mare, Dita. *Instead of carefully sliding down ravines, she was athletic enough to hop and skip down - also good for getting those hip adductors nice and strong so you're not enjoying the walk of shame home...*
> 
> If she bucks, shut her down and send her forwards. If she wants to go forward, let her. Horses that go forward don't go up. Maybe once she realizes you will let her go forward, the bucking will stop, too.



Tyra does this too. She doesn't carefully slide down hills, she trots down them or jump-jumps down them. I'm going to have to just _let go_ and see what happens. I agree with your assessment, she is a horse who needs freedom in the front end, freedom to move her feet where she feels they need to be. That is why, out on the trails, i let her have a more active leading role. She really is very level-headed and trustworthy. It's more when I believe we're "fine" and then she has a different idea. Like 5 feet in front of WP jogging horse? To me, i don't see that as anything of any concern, trying to look through her eyes. Not when she's done the same thing with a horse who cantered in front of her. THAT i can understand. But for some reason the horse with the little jog was still a threat to first place. :|


----------



## SilverMaple

thecolorcoal said:


> It's not a true bolt, it's cantering after a horse who is too far ahead for her liking. I've looked at ALL the pain possibilities. Everything. This has nothing to do with discomfort. This has to do with her not feeling safe without her buddy.



And therein lies the root of your issues. This mare does not feel safe without her buddies. You are not her 'safe place.' You need to address this-- the bolting is the symptom (and yes, it is still a bolt whether she's galloping or walking-- if she's moving and you ask her to stop and she doesn't, she's bolting).


I recommend you take a look at Warwick Schiller's philosophy in horse training. He has some things on YouTube, but most of the good stuff is available through his video subscription. There's a free week's trial, but it's well worth the subscription, too. Start at the beginning, even if you think 'my horse already knows that.' It really does work, and it helps to address the anxiety issues that cause behavior issues, especially with sensitive or mishandled horses. I really think it would help you both.


What's going on here is that your horse is anxious and feels unsafe. You are frustrated with her behavior and feel anxious because you aren't comfortable out on the trail and think that just because you put time and energy into this mare that she should be over her issues by now, but she isn't. She doesn't feel safe with you, and that is causing you not to feel safe with her, and it's a vicious circle. Address your anxiety and address her anxiety and see where that gets you. Addressing the behavior without addressing the cause will only make it worse. 



My suggestion is to watch Warwick for awhile. Do the focus and relaxation sessions over and over. Then start at the beginning with his under saddle lessons. I bet you find there are some big holes in this mare's basics that are causing a lot of your problems, and that by doing the focus work, your mare learns to trust you and relax, and you learn how to help her relax, and then you two will do a lot better. Do not put a time frame on this. It takes however long it takes. I've had some horses breeze through the relaxation in a few days. My Paso Fino took months before he really started to release his tension and learn to relax himself. Just keep at it, and you'll be surprised in the difference it makes.


----------



## thecolorcoal

SilverMaple said:


> thecolorcoal said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a true bolt, it's cantering after a horse who is too far ahead for her liking. I've looked at ALL the pain possibilities. Everything. This has nothing to do with discomfort. This has to do with her not feeling safe without her buddy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And therein lies the root of your issues. This mare does not feel safe without her buddies. You are not her 'safe place.' You need to address this-- the bolting is the symptom (and yes, it is still a bolt whether she's galloping or walking-- if she's moving and you ask her to stop and she doesn't, she's bolting).
> 
> 
> I recommend you take a look at Warwick Schiller's philosophy in horse training. He has some things on YouTube, but most of the good stuff is available through his video subscription. There's a free week's trial, but it's well worth the subscription, too. Start at the beginning, even if you think 'my horse already knows that.' It really does work, and it helps to address the anxiety issues that cause behavior issues, especially with sensitive or mishandled horses. I really think it would help you both.
> 
> 
> What's going on here is that your horse is anxious and feels unsafe. You are frustrated with her behavior and feel anxious because you aren't comfortable out on the trail and think that just because you put time and energy into this mare that she should be over her issues by now, but she isn't. She doesn't feel safe with you, and that is causing you not to feel safe with her, and it's a vicious circle. Address your anxiety and address her anxiety and see where that gets you. Addressing the behavior without addressing the cause will only make it worse.
> 
> 
> 
> My suggestion is to watch Warwick for awhile. Do the focus and relaxation sessions over and over. Then start at the beginning with his under saddle lessons. I bet you find there are some big holes in this mare's basics that are causing a lot of your problems, and that by doing the focus work, your mare learns to trust you and relax, and you learn how to help her relax, and then you two will do a lot better. Do not put a time frame on this. It takes however long it takes. I've had some horses breeze through the relaxation in a few days. My Paso Fino took months before he really started to release his tension and learn to relax himself. Just keep at it, and you'll be surprised in the difference it makes.
Click to expand...

Thank you silver! I will look into him! I really appreciate your help and advice


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## thecolorcoal

@SilverMaple omg Schiller only lives an hour from me! His barn is just a bit south of mine!!!!


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## 4horses

Go back to the arena and practice your one rein stop. She has a problem with other horses leaving without her. This is running away to catch up. What if you make her stand and wait while the other horse goes ahead, and comes back? Can she do that? 

Will she lead the ride? Some horses have to be out front or they are unhappy.

Sometimes you can't train a horse out of a bad habit, you have to compromise. If she needs to be first, then let her. Knight rider has a horse that will not lead the ride under any circumstances. 

One rein stops are great, but they don't work for every situation...it is hard to do a one rein stop on a narrow trail with a green horse.

This is not an issue of trust,, more of an instinctive reaction.


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## thecolorcoal

4horses said:


> Go back to the arena and practice your one rein stop. She has a problem with other horses leaving without her. This is running away to catch up. What if you make her stand and wait while the other horse goes ahead, and comes back? Can she do that?
> 
> Will she lead the ride? Some horses have to be out front or they are unhappy.
> 
> Sometimes you can't train a horse out of a bad habit, you have to compromise. If she needs to be first, then let her. Knight rider has a horse that will not lead the ride under any circumstances.
> 
> One rein stops are great, but they don't work for every situation...it is hard to do a one rein stop on a narrow trail with a green horse.
> 
> This is not an issue of trust,, more of an instinctive reaction.


Thank you. Yes she is good out in front. Not reactive at all. She does NOT like to be behind other horses. I am trying to help her be more well rounded. 

Scenario; before I can even attempt
To prevent a reaction she leaps up and kicks out her back feet. This, I believe, is to release contact on her mouth, at whatever level I’m holding, so that she can go forward after the other horse. It is very much an “off to the races” response as she does not stop after she is in front, she has to keep going. To stop her I have to turn her into something. Using another horse to block her doesn’t help as she isn’t deterred, she will just blow right past.

It wasn’t scary. Let me make that clear. I just froze up because I realized too late my attempt to halt was not working. But as soon as my brain kicked in I knew to turn her up the hill and get her to halt. For a moment we stood there. Tyra totally relaxed while I tried to calm myself down. I knew if I asked her to walk on at that moment I wouldn’t have the control I needed to stop another potential bolt. So I stood there, quietly, with her while my heart slowed down and I gathered myself to be able to take control again.

It worked. We climbed down the hill and walked on a loose rein home.


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## QtrBel

The video is on FB. I tried to find it as it is appropo to this thread and a tribute to all of those OTTBs out there....
https://www.raceruidoso.com/riderless-horse-wins-race-at-ruidoso-downs/


I guess horses do really know what they are doing and don't need our guidance.


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## thecolorcoal

QtrBel said:


> The video is on FB. I tried to find it as it is appropo to this thread and a tribute to all of those OTTBs out there....
> https://www.raceruidoso.com/riderless-horse-wins-race-at-ruidoso-downs/
> 
> 
> I guess horses do really know what they are doing and don't need our guidance.


I saw that one bel!!!


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## SteadyOn

thecolorcoal said:


> @SilverMaple omg Schiller only lives an hour from me! His barn is just a bit south of mine!!!!


Love love love love love his methods. He's very sympathetic to the horse while also being extremely effective. He explains everything well, has great patience, is absolutely amazing on Facebook with advice and answering questions from his followers, and seems to just really love what he does. I've never seen a trainer do things in a way that made so much sense. In the last year and a half, the way I've handled horses has become so much more effective because of his program. It's the single best thing I've done for my horsemanship.


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## thecolorcoal

SteadyOn said:


> thecolorcoal said:
> 
> 
> 
> @SilverMaple omg Schiller only lives an hour from me! His barn is just a bit south of mine!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Love love love love love his methods. He's very sympathetic to the horse while also being extremely effective. He explains everything well, has great patience, is absolutely amazing on Facebook with advice and answering questions from his followers, and seems to just really love what he does. I've never seen a trainer do things in a way that made so much sense. In the last year and a half, the way I've handled horses has become so much more effective because of his program. It's the single best thing I've done for my horsemanship.
Click to expand...

I will watch all the videos I can. I am now feeling a lot better about what I can do on the trails. Obviously this isn’t because of me, that makes me feel better! It’s just Tyra’s instinctual response which is much easier to manage than a horse who secretly hates their rider! 😵


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> @SilverMaple omg Schiller only lives an hour from me! His barn is just a bit south of mine!!!!


Then save your pennies and go take a clinic with him, take your mare and have him work with her.


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## thecolorcoal

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> thecolorcoal said:
> 
> 
> 
> @SilverMaple omg Schiller only lives an hour from me! His barn is just a bit south of mine!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Then save your pennies and go take a clinic with him, take your mare and have him work with her.
Click to expand...

I LOVE that idea. After the x rays 👍🏻


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> I LOVE that idea. After the x rays 👍🏻


Yup, might not get there til next year, but just make that a goal, mark an envelope "Schiller Clinic Fund" and start putting a set amount in there every payday and any money you "find". Pretty soon you'll have it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> This, I believe, is to release contact on her mouth, at whatever level I’m holding, so that she can go forward after the other horse.
> 
> It worked. We climbed down the hill and walked on a loose rein home.


Next time she tries to play "catch up", don't stop her. Drop your reins, sit down deep and, if you have to grab the front of your saddle or some mane, but whatever you do, don't post up or get forward. Sit back, let your legs be loose and off her sides and drop your contact and see if she doesn't just drop right out.


----------



## thecolorcoal

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> thecolorcoal said:
> 
> 
> 
> I LOVE that idea. After the x rays 👍🏻
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, might not get there til next year, but just make that a goal, mark an envelope "Schiller Clinic Fund" and start putting a set amount in there every payday and any money you "find". Pretty soon you'll have it.
Click to expand...

Excellent idea. 

I guess at the end of the day I need to trust in myself and that I got this ❤ I’m not helpless! And I have a good horse. Thanks everyone for rooting for us!


----------



## loosie

thecolorcoal said:


> Is there any hole I need to fill in our relationship? I'm starting to reach for straws. Clicker training? Liberty training? At this point think I need to start thinking outside the box of conventional training...


Absolutely! Respectfully, I think to begin with, you need to DIG a hole & bury your misconceptions, as QtrBel pointed out. And you need to fill a number of holes in your understanding of horse psychology. Once you have a better idea of how she thinks, what ideas she does & doesn't understand about what you think you are communicating to her, then you will be able to treat her more objectively, for what she is. Which should help you understand how to handle her better. Maybe why NOT to keep trying to force her to be a good trail horse is one conclusion you come to...


----------



## thecolorcoal

loosie said:


> Absolutely! Respectfully, I think to begin with, you need to DIG a hole & bury your misconceptions, as QtrBel pointed out. And you need to fill a number of holes in your understanding of horse psychology. Once you have a better idea of how she thinks, what ideas she does & doesn't understand about what you think you are communicating to her, then you will be able to treat her more objectively, for what she is. Which should help you understand how to handle her better. Maybe why NOT to keep trying to force her to be a good trail horse is one conclusion you come to...



The challenge I am having is her psychology is much different from Missy's psychology. That horse is an open book. She's reactive, but she's honest about her feelings and will give you a chance to reassure her before she decides it's best to flee. I don't get that with Tyra. I have to be on my A-Game every ride. Not complaining, it's just different. I am obviously not catching her check-ins as they are more subtle than Missy's, who will physically react, check in, and then decide what to do about your suggestion. Tyra either doesn't check in with me or... just decides her opinion matters more. 



It's hard to explain, and I don't know if I am explaining it right. I've been riding horses a long time, all types of horses, and most will give you a clue about how they are feeling. very rarely have I ridden a horse who, seemingly out of the blue, blows up underneath you when you thought everything was OK. But this is Tyra. I am struggling to understand where she is coming from, and I feel a lot have offered their suggestions and advice.


I hope, Loosie, you at least can perhaps remember an experience you've had with a horse who is not "honest" about their feelings? It would be lovely if you could share with me so I don't feel so alone in all of this.


----------



## SteadyOn

thecolorcoal said:


> It's hard to explain, and I don't know if I am explaining it right. I've been riding horses a long time, all types of horses, and most will give you a clue about how they are feeling. very rarely have I ridden a horse who, seemingly out of the blue, blows up underneath you when you thought everything was OK. But this is Tyra. I am struggling to understand where she is coming from, and I feel a lot have offered their suggestions and advice.
> 
> 
> I hope, Loosie, you at least can perhaps remember an experience you've had with a horse who is not "honest" about their feelings? It would be lovely if you could share with me so I don't feel so alone in all of this.


I'm confused about what the trouble is, though. Is it that she canters to catch up with other horses, or is it suddenly exploding? Because if the problem is cantering off to catch up, it's not "out of nowhere." You know what triggers it and can have a reasonable expectation of when it might happen. That doesn't seem like your horse is expressing herself dishonestly.


----------



## thecolorcoal

SteadyOn said:


> I'm confused about what the trouble is, though. Is it that she canters to catch up with other horses, or is it suddenly exploding? Because if the problem is cantering off to catch up, it's not "out of nowhere." You know what triggers it and can have a reasonable expectation of when it might happen. That doesn't seem like your horse is expressing herself dishonestly.



 It's the bucking, which i guess is how she gets her feet into gear for the canter. The problem is that sometimes on the trail, horse can be out in front? no big deal. whatever. and then OTHER times, horse out in front? OMG OH NO! There doesn't seem to be a consecutive factor APART from her own insecurity in that moment which triggers her flight/herd bound response. No matter how deep I sit, no matter how relaxed I feel, it still happens. My part has very little to do with the probability that she will/will not buck and bolt. Of course the tenser I am the higher chance there is of it happening, but it can happen in pristine conditions. 



Horses, i know - it's just how it is, but it is discouraging when people are telling you to 'relax relax relax' as if that's some magic spell that will completely prevent this reaction or at least turn it into something easily shut down.



The problem is most horses would just start to jig to let you know "hey i'm feeling left out!" she bucks, and then "bolts." her pathetic small baby bolt that it is. Where's the jig? where's the tension before the buck? Am i just not feeling it? Usually you can fell them swell underneath you and you know you have to shut it down before it escalates.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> It's the bucking, which i guess is how she gets her feet into gear for the canter. The problem is that sometimes on the trail, horse can be out in front? no big deal. whatever. and then OTHER times, horse out in front? OMG OH NO! There doesn't seem to be a consecutive factor APART from her own insecurity in that moment which triggers her flight/herd bound response. No matter how deep I sit, no matter how relaxed I feel, it still happens. My part has very little to do with the probability that she will/will not buck and bolt. Of course the tenser I am the higher chance there is of it happening, but it can happen in pristine conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> Horses, i know - it's just how it is, but it is discouraging when people are telling you to 'relax relax relax' as if that's some magic spell that will completely prevent this reaction or at least turn it into something easily shut down.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem is most horses would just start to jig to let you know "hey i'm feeling left out!" she bucks, and then "bolts." her pathetic small baby bolt that it is. Where's the jig? where's the tension before the buck? Am i just not feeling it? Usually you can fell them swell underneath you and you know you have to shut it down before it escalates.


I can almost guarantee you're missing her "tell". With Patti, her head goes up, sometimes it's just the way she cocks her head and flicks her ears. That's it. Then she bows up and we're off to the races. I just have to be aware of what's going on. You being relaxed is not going to stop it, it will keep you in the saddle and if you can not clamp with your legs, keep your seat down and drop that contact, I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't drop right out of that canter. But when she's overwhelmed with needing to be in the group, she's going to go. You have to stay ready for that.


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## loosie

thecolorcoal said:


> The bad moments are so rare now that I don't even think about them happening. ...
> I don't get enough opportunities to practice stopping these behaviors. Today I think robin and I are going to push the envelope more and try and create situations where these reactions happen so I can learn how to stop them.


To the first bit, that is not at all the way your previous posts came across - sounded like the horse always or often reacted like this with you on the trail, not just once in a blue moon. :| You need to be clearer about what's happening, to get the most appropriate advice, or it's a waste of everyone's time.

To the second bit, NOOO! You are talking about trying to get this horse's trust. The LAST thing you should be considering is setting up MORE scary situations for her to make her MORE reactive, fearful! You need to prepare BOTH of you better BEFORE you get into scary situations.

Far from needing, it's best not to have, to begin with, reactive situations, to practice 'emergency stops'. As people have said, horses(any animal) CAN NOT THINK clearly when they're panicking - so don't even attempt to teach her in those situations. Instead, BOTH of you need to have it so habitual as to be automatic behaviour for her to do a 'one rein stop' *without force* at any time. The aim is to be able to do it WITHOUT having to think about it.

I got my kids into this habit, after they & their ponies were good at doing it just as an exercise, that out on the trail(or wherever), when I said 'emergency! Emergency!' they need to stop their horses immediately, _as if_ there was something wrong. We made a game out of it & would do this at least about 10 times per ride. Sometimes at a walk, sometimes faster. Could be in the middle of crossing a creek or some such. Whatever, wherever. Whatever speed.

There have, of course, been a number of times when these reactive creatures we choose to ride suddenly panicked with them & bolted, but they have been able to 'shut it down' very quickly. A couple of years back, probably one of the scariest situations for a Mum I've so far been in - We had just come off a main road, not far down a side street, when up the road comes a motorbike, with 4 big dogs racing beside it towards us! I saw & reacted just as my horse did, but it was sudden enough that my daughter didn't know what was going on until her pony had already spun & started bolting towards the main road! By the time I'd turned around to look, she was standing only about 10 metres away, a few metres from the main road, with her pony's nose to her knee. I shudder at the thought that they had not both been well drilled on this exercise _before_ it came to the crunch!


----------



## thecolorcoal

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I can almost guarantee you're missing her "tell". With Patti, her head goes up, sometimes it's just the way she cocks her head and flicks her ears. That's it. Then she bows up and we're off to the races. I just have to be aware of what's going on. You being relaxed is not going to stop it, it will keep you in the saddle and if you can not clamp with your legs, keep your seat down and drop that contact, I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't drop right out of that canter. But when she's overwhelmed with needing to be in the group, she's going to go. You have to stay ready for that.



I think I am. Let me think for a moment.


Right before she has her fit, whatever it may be, she sucks back. Usually sucking back = bucking/headshaking when we are alone, bucking/bolting when we are with a group. I have been doing a lot better to send her FORWARD when she is at all unsure. forward forward forward. March! this helps tremendously, helps us keep the momentum going so we have no time to plant and bronc. In a group its a bit more tricky, especially if front horse is slow. No place for forward. If tyra can't go forward, ie too much contact, i'm too tense, she will buck in place. Up down up down. Its much easier for me and much safer if she has the freedom to go forward. 



Forward I don't mind. Forward I can do. It's "up down up down" that I HATE. Ugh. Head tossing, bucking, crowhopping. It's like riding indiana jones at disneyland! 



Making light of the situation and finding humor helps me relax so bear with me.


I suppose we are going to have to stop forcing her to stand still. That's another trigger - lack of movement. Then she will start her updownupdown crow hop nonsense. So those are her two "triggers" and I didn't catch them in time thinking she would come back to me if I just ignored them. 



For next time I know to address the issue before it can move past the statue stage.

@*loosie* , NONONO they almost never happen, _that is why i am so upset._ No opportunities to practice my seat! Sorry loosie, i was in the moment when I posted this and it is a "constant" problem, IE in the specific situation we find ourselves in. 90% of the time she is as friendly as a clydestale. it's that rare moment when the TB brain flicks on and it's like "oh no! why did i buy this thing!" When it happens it happens in very patternistic(SP?) ways and always out of the arena. I will practice my one rein stops. I've never learned. I am sure there are many threads on HF on how to get started.


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## SteadyOn

So, to be clear, she'll throw a buck then canter to catch up to a horse in front of her? How are these big gaps between horses happening on the trail? The person ahead of you should be more considerate of your pace, and/or you should be making sure you don't let that gap get too big. If you need to jog a little periodically to close that gap that sounds like better management of your distance that would prevent her from getting anxious about catching up.

I mean, ideally she WOULDN'T run off and catch up, but if it's only an occasional thing, why not avoid that scenario?

And if you're out riding with someone pokey, you probably should take the lead because it'll be easier for them to catch up to you than for you to slow down for them. 

Again, is it perfect training? Nope, but it's riding the horse you have in a way that makes you both more relaxed.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

thecolorcoal said:


> I think I am. Let me think for a moment.
> 
> 
> Right before she has her fit, whatever it may be, she sucks back. Usually sucking back = bucking/headshaking when we are alone, bucking/bolting when we are with a group. I have been doing a lot better to send her FORWARD when she is at all unsure. forward forward forward. March! this helps tremendously, helps us keep the momentum going so we have no time to plant and bronc. In a group its a bit more tricky, especially if front horse is slow. No place for forward. If tyra can't go forward, ie too much contact, i'm too tense, she will buck in place. Up down up down. Its much easier for me and much safer if she has the freedom to go forward.
> 
> 
> 
> Forward I don't mind. Forward I can do. It's "up down up down" that I HATE. Ugh. Head tossing, bucking, crowhopping. It's like riding indiana jones at disneyland!
> 
> 
> 
> Making light of the situation and finding humor helps me relax so bear with me.
> 
> 
> I suppose we are going to have to stop forcing her to stand still. That's another trigger - lack of movement. Then she will start her updownupdown crow hop nonsense. So those are her two "triggers" and I didn't catch them in time thinking she would come back to me if I just ignored them.
> 
> 
> 
> For next time I know to address the issue before it can move past the statue stage.
> 
> @*loosie* , NONONO they almost never happen, _that is why i am so upset._ No opportunities to practice my seat! Sorry loosie, i was in the moment when I posted this and it is a "constant" problem, IE in the specific situation we find ourselves in. 90% of the time she is as friendly as a clydestale. it's that rare moment when the TB brain flicks on and it's like "oh no! why did i buy this thing!" When it happens it happens in very patternistic(SP?) ways and always out of the arena. I will practice my one rein stops. I've never learned. I am sure there are many threads on HF on how to get started.


Here's how I read both of her triggers. 

#1 She sucks back, you know what's going to happen so you sit up tall, maybe a little forward and you pick up contact, pretty tightly. She say, "OH that means GO!" and since you have her face trapped the only place she can go is up/down. Luckily she hasn't started to rear, yet. So, when she sucks back, drop your reins and let her go forward. Even leg her forward, because if she's moving forward, likely she won't stop to buck. 

#2 You try to make her stand still, so she sucks back and starts to crow hop. Instead of making her stand, put her to work. Go forward, but at YOUR pace, not hers. Do a lot of up/down transitions, that burns energy and get her focused on you trying to anticipate what you're going to ask next. 

One rein stops are pretty easy. First you flex the horse to the right & then to the left, from the ground. I stand on a block because I'm so short it doesn't work if I'm on the ground. Take that left rein and pull it back to you so that her nose is coming back on a flat line, not up, not down. Pull until she resists and just hold it until she gives you the teensiest bit, then release. Do it again. This is an exercise where timing is CRUCiAL, you have to release the second she gives even a tiny bit. Once she is relaxed and giving when you flex her one way, do the other. Do it every time you go to get on her, it will set her mind up for the day. If she's fighting, don't get on, keep doing the flex/release until she is giving consistently without you having to hold pressure. Then get on her back and do it some more. Eventually, you can bring her head all the way back to your knee and she will hold it there for a few seconds without you pulling. Practice Carrot Stretches, offer her a treat and she has to follow it with her nose until she's where you want her, then give her the treat. You can do it left, right and between her front legs. It's great for suppling. 

Once she's got that, then at the walk, you sit down on your seat bones, and pull back on one rein and say "Whoa". It will take several repetitions, and she'll walk through a fair few of them, before she stops. As soon as her feet quit moving, release the pressure/contact as her reward. Walk on and do it again, do it on both sides. Then move up to a few jog steps and repeat. It gets kind of monotonous and boring while you're drilling it, but once it's established, just practice once or twice per ride and you'll be amazed how quickly it gets established in her mind. Checking for the one rein stop is the FIRST thing I do on any new horse. No one rein stop? We stop until I've got one 'installed'.


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## loosie

Boy, I can't believe how quickly this thread has grown! Haven't read last few pages...



thecolorcoal said:


> I hope, Loosie, you at least can perhaps remember an experience you've had with a horse who is not "honest" about their feelings? It would be lovely if you could share with me so I don't feel so alone in all of this.


IMHO they're all 100% 'honest'. Animals don't have the capacity to 'lie'. ;-) But I do think I get what you mean.

I guess you could think of my guy who I told you would have 'melt downs' 'for no apparent reason'(until I started him on Mg) as 'dishonest' because there seemed no rhyme or reason. 

I'd ridden & trained quite a number of horses for a fair while, doing fine, thought I understood & could 'read' them quite well thank you, when I started working with this green horse.... that taught me how little I knew. He seemed pretty cool, calm & collected with the basics... seemed to take everything in his stride, quiet, compliant... I thought he was telling me he was ready for bigger & better. So I pushed him to do just that, and he would 'blow up'. Not every time, but even when I was 'pushing' in only 'baby steps'. 

I ended up getting another trainer I respected to come check him out. She didn't spend much time before saying 'listen to his breathing'. I replied that I couldn't actually hear it. She said Exactly!! He's holding his breath! Then she showed me the way he was holding his lips, the way he was sort of 'zoned out' - quiet but almost 'shut down'. She said she suspected his earlier training probably taught him to be afraid to show how he felt more obviously, until 'the final straw' when it all became too much for him, when he'd 'suddenly, without warning' loose his stuff. It was then that I started to realise how many of the smaller signs I was missing, that perhaps I'd just worked with far more demonstrative horses that were rather obvious to read.


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## gottatrot

Some more information on the one-rein stop:

How Dreamcatcher describes it is different from how many people teach it. I don't use it myself - but have taught others to use it to help them feel more secure. If I can get a horse to stop with the head turned to the side, I see no reason why I can't get them to stop with their head straight. If the horse is too worked up to stop safely, but I don't want them to continue forward, I turn or circle them. 

Anyway, another version of the one rein stop doesn't focus on turning the neck but rather focuses on getting the horse to disengage the hind end. So rather than having the horse stop with the head turned back, what you want to do is turn the head to the side and as soon as they give a step to the side with the hind end, you release the pressure and reward them. This makes it more likely that the horse will associate turning the neck with moving the hind end off the track of the front, which will slow the horse down. 

Otherwise with some horses you may teach them to simply disconnect the neck from what the rest of the body is doing, which can lead to them running forward while looking in another direction. Not fun.


----------



## SueC

FWIW, I never emergency stop a horse with the head turned back; I'm personally simply not comfortable with that (but if it works for you, fine, no worries). Just to me, that invites a possible fall, with a hot horse who might be going headless - and I've always ridden hot horses - race-line Arabians, off-track STBs, friends' OTTBs - and particularly goey specimens of their breeds at that. If your horse is already headless, why add unbalanced to that? Just makes it more dangerous, IMO. I ride it more like @*gottatrot* describes. Some horses who are nightmares to stop in snaffles are comparatively easy to stop in soft English hackamores - and my hunch is that those are less likely to cause discomfort / pain that just ramps up on top of whatever else the problem is at the time. I'd far rather ride a "bolter" in a soft hackamore, too. My current horse works very well and comfortably in a port-mouthed Spanish "snaffle", which is actually a soft curb with slotted D-rings - minimal leverage, but totally different action to a snaffle, and much kinder to the mouth. (I can go into the physics of it if anyone wants, because it contradicts some cherished mainstream opinions - yet not the opinions of some people who've looked at this who have a good grasp of physics as well as about one hundred times the horse experience than I've had - e.g. Tom Roberts in his _Horse Control and the Bit_. Anyway, I like riding horses in mild bits in which they are happy, or bitless.)


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## thecolorcoal

SteadyOn said:


> So, to be clear, she'll throw a buck then canter to catch up to a horse in front of her? How are these big gaps between horses happening on the trail? The person ahead of you should be more considerate of your pace, and/or you should be making sure you don't let that gap get too big. If you need to jog a little periodically to close that gap that sounds like better management of your distance that would prevent her from getting anxious about catching up.
> 
> I mean, ideally she WOULDN'T run off and catch up, but if it's only an occasional thing, why not avoid that scenario?
> 
> And if you're out riding with someone pokey, you probably should take the lead because it'll be easier for them to catch up to you than for you to slow down for them.
> 
> Again, is it perfect training? Nope, but it's riding the horse you have in a way that makes you both more relaxed.


This was originally a training ride. My friend and I were practicing Tyra's reactions to horses trotting ahead of her. At first it went great, and then as soon as we hit the "scary spot" and she had her horse trot in front of us, Tyra did her buck/bolt. So it was a practice run, not an unplanned trot.


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## tinyliny

I'm not going to offer any actual advice to the OP. It's not really what she wants, or needs, at least not in terms of riding advice.


The 'ugly' truth is that some of us do not LIKE to ride horses that are like the mare described. We think we should like it, but the ugly truth is that we don't. We feel ashamed because 'better' riders can do it, and ENJOY the unexpected, the difficult, the naughty, the challenge, the scary/thrilling part. Isn't that what all of us are supposed to work toward, as we grow as riders; to be able to handle and ENJOY handling the more difficult, 'higher' level horses?


But, I'll confess right here. I DON"T ENJOY THAT. and I think I am not alone. I do NOT get a thrill out of a bolting horse, that I jsut barely control. I don't find it personally gratifying to work a hot horse down by allowing it to run off full tilt until it's tired enough to walk along. I don't consider it fun to run the **** off a horse, first. I can do SOME of that, if I have to. But, it isn't something that brings me satisfaction. Indeed, I am fearful, and I end up disliking it so much that I start to dislike both the horse, AND MYSELF!!


Becuase, somehow I've failed.


Failed? yeah, becuase I didn't live up to the expectations OTHER people put on themselves, and others, for what makes a hroseperson a 'real' horse person.


Well, I don't care anymore. I am into enjoyment, not fear, and if a horse is the kind that will erupt at any moment, that is taking non-stop 'management' of the bit, is ready to explode, or needs a mile run to get off the excess energy, THAT horse is not for me. And, I won't let others 'shame' me for that feeling.


Consider the above. could you be like me? Could you be someone who REALLY just wants a nice ride? There is no shame there.


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## thecolorcoal

loosie said:


> Boy, I can't believe how quickly this thread has grown! Haven't read last few pages...
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO they're all 100% 'honest'. Animals don't have the capacity to 'lie'. ;-) But I do think I get what you mean.
> 
> I guess you could think of my guy who I told you would have 'melt downs' 'for no apparent reason'(until I started him on Mg) as 'dishonest' because there seemed no rhyme or reason.
> 
> I'd ridden & trained quite a number of horses for a fair while, doing fine, thought I understood & could 'read' them quite well thank you, when I started working with this green horse.... that taught me how little I knew. He seemed pretty cool, calm & collected with the basics... seemed to take everything in his stride, quiet, compliant... I thought he was telling me he was ready for bigger & better. So I pushed him to do just that, and he would 'blow up'. Not every time, but even when I was 'pushing' in only 'baby steps'.
> 
> I ended up getting another trainer I respected to come check him out. She didn't spend much time before saying 'listen to his breathing'. I replied that I couldn't actually hear it. She said Exactly!! He's holding his breath! Then she showed me the way he was holding his lips, the way he was sort of 'zoned out' - quiet but almost 'shut down'. She said she suspected his earlier training probably taught him to be afraid to show how he felt more obviously, until 'the final straw' when it all became too much for him, when he'd 'suddenly, without warning' loose his stuff. It was then that I started to realise how many of the smaller signs I was missing, that perhaps I'd just worked with far more demonstrative horses that were rather obvious to read.


This. This is exactly how Tyra is. I have worked very hard to try and get her to be more "open" about her emotions. I am OK with her being a bit spooky, a bit reactive. Just giving me a physical read on her feelings. But it's when she goes very quiet, very still, and then all of a sudden - BOOM! Right underneath me. Right when I think everything is OK it's not. It is going to be a situation where I have to be very, very in-tune with her, and I admit i've fallen out of vogue since I sort of gave trainer/leaser most of the time with this horse, and now I have to learn about her all over again.

@tinyliny, I hate to admit it but i do agree with you. There is a part of me that feels that i "should" be able to ride this horse. and since this is the highest level of challenge I've ever faced, if I can master her I can conquer the world.

but i have had the nice rides. I remember the only reason I bought this horse is because all the "nice rides" were boring and there was no longer a challenge. This horse is INSANELY challenging. There are so many layers it is unbelievable. BUT. She makes every other horse look easy. I have no problems riding the "standard" challenging horse. Put me on the bucking qh? whatever. The grumpy apaloosa who humps up? no problem. But the tb who will leap into outer space and twist and shout until you're off her back? "..." Not a common animal by any means.

@SueC - she's in a veribend, a very mild bit. asked a friend if i should put her in a slow twist. friend said no, answer isn't bigger bit it's better training, which i agree with.

The problem I am having is all of this escalates. I say no, she tries something else, I say no, she gets bigger. and bigger, until she has me backing off. Today was my third "bad ride" in a row and i quickly realized what was happening. As soon as she lifted a hoof and pinned an ear as if to say "go ahead, try, and see how you like it," i immediately shrink back. Today I decided enough is enough - i've got to face the music and face her. I can't let her continue to bully me.

So I did. and it took a VERY long time for her to finally come around. We weren't successful on the trail. I ended up having to get off because she was threatening to go up if I kept pushing. In the arena, same thing, but I am more confident and so I pushed her on and instead of getting scared, I got mad. I was done being bullied and intimidated. SO I sent her on and on and on and just made her go. And whenever she'd try to plant and buck I kicked her on. And it took me 20 minutes of inner strength to get her to finally lower her head, engage her back, and work. And as soon as we did that I got off and took her home as a reward.

I feel there is a lot to be said about learning how to stand up to your bullies, equine or human. I do not like conflict, but Tyra IS NOT going to make my riding life miserable AGAIN. I'm not going to go back to being frightened and intimidated by her.  she knows ALL my buttons and today she tried to push them and see which ones worked. Some did, regrettably, but some didn't and I am proud of myself for standing up to her.


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## thecolorcoal

sorry to double post - can't remember who mentioned groundwork, but after today her and i need a serious conversation on who is where in this herd. She's suddenly realized this barn is our new home and has resorted to behaviors i haven't seen from her in a very long time. IE trying to run me down to get into her stall, trying to kick out at me in the arena, trying to intimidate me under saddle so that I will stop making her do something, trying to shove me out of the way to get to her grain. This is old behavior yet we had it under control for the last 8 months at our last barn, and now it's re-appearing. This time I am seeing the signs early on and I need to put a stop to it before it goes back to the point where we need professional help yet again.

My friend at the barn has let her 4 year old walk all over her and now she has a horse who won't even let the rider ON her. I know the slippery slope this can take if I don't stop it now. I'll write about it more in my journal.

https://pethelpful.com/horses/dealingwithdominanthorse < - this article is a good one.


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## SueC

tinyliny said:


> But, I'll confess right here. I DON"T ENJOY THAT. and I think I am not alone. I do NOT get a thrill out of a bolting horse, that I jsut barely control. I don't find it personally gratifying to work a hot horse down by allowing it to run off full tilt until it's tired enough to walk along. I don't consider it fun to run the **** off a horse, first. I can do SOME of that, if I have to. But, it isn't something that brings me satisfaction. Indeed, I am fearful, and I end up disliking it so much that I start to dislike both the horse, AND MYSELF!!
> 
> 
> Becuase, somehow I've failed.
> 
> 
> Failed? yeah, becuase I didn't live up to the expectations OTHER people put on themselves, and others, for what makes a hroseperson a 'real' horse person.
> 
> 
> Well, I don't care anymore. I am into enjoyment, not fear, and if a horse is the kind that will erupt at any moment, that is taking non-stop 'management' of the bit, is ready to explode, or needs a mile run to get off the excess energy, THAT horse is not for me. And, I won't let others 'shame' me for that feeling.
> 
> 
> Consider the above. could you be like me? Could you be someone who REALLY just wants a nice ride? There is no shame there.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

No, indeed there isn't. Thanks for posting this. I completely agree with you, and yet I've always been interested in riding the difficult horses. It doesn't make me a better person than you. Everyone has different dispositions and needs, and it would be both foolhardy and unauthentic to operate vastly outside our personal comfort zones. (A _little_ bit of _well-considered_ pushing at the comfort zone can be great, and is how a personal comfort zone can be widened gradually and without undue hyperventillation.)

I'd never go bungee jumping, for example - although Brett has (mostly because it was a 30th birthday present from friends). It's as safe as horseriding, but not near my comfort zone, or part of my aspirations in life. :rofl:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with just wanting to enjoy nice steady rides on steady horses. And that's also far less stressful for the non-horsey people who care about you!

Happy riding, dear @tinyliny!

:cowboy:


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## SueC

thecolorcoal said:


> @*SueC* - she's in a veribend, a very mild bit. asked a friend if i should put her in a slow twist. friend said no, answer isn't bigger bit it's better training, which i agree with.


I'd personally never put a twisted metal device into a horse's mouth - my choice. Mild bits are the go IMO. The common difference people have around "better training rather than bigger bit" is that there are ingrained misconceptions about which bits are "mild" and which bits are "harsh", and also a tendency to one-size-fits-all solutions, when there are so many different horse and rider combinations. If in doubt, ask your horse! ;-)

By the way I was going to send you a supportive visitor message, but you've got that turned off, so here it is: There's people here for you to bounce ideas off, and to lend you emotional and practical support and generally send good vibes.


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## thecolorcoal

oh i had no idea i had the messages turned off! i need to turn those on!!!!!!
@SueC, got it enabled now. she was in a double twisted wire when i bought her. i promised i'd never throw a harsh bit on her again. i have tried twisteds, i admit, but i personally don't believe a horse can/should take contact with a bit unless it is inviting. I got the veribend on an accidental mismark at dover for 39 instead of 139. xD so that is what i use. Breaks are sort of nil but again the bit shouldn't neccesarily be breaks.


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## loosie

SueC said:


> FWIW, I never emergency stop a horse with the head turned back; I'm personally simply not comfortable with that (but if it works for you, fine, no worries). Just to me, that invites a possible fall, with a hot horse who might be going headless


Yeah, I think the important bit is that the horse is *conditioned* to do this automatically & *without* much, if any pressure. It is not ever about just trying to force their head around in an emergency situation, that would be very dangerous. 

But I'm not set in my ways of doing it that way, just the only reliable way I've so far found & is a bit of 'programming' from my Parelli days way back in a past life... I'm not sure that I remember ever seeing a discussion on teaching different 'emergency stops' aside from one rather harsh looking method... Be interested in hearing about other methods to stop a bolt. I don't think it would be at all OT to discuss on Coal's thread here. By all means tell us otherwise if you think so Coal.


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## gottatrot

thecolorcoal said:


> I have worked very hard to try and get her to be more "open" about her emotions. I am OK with her being a bit spooky, a bit reactive. Just giving me a physical read on her feelings.


If you want her to express her emotions, then you have to listen to them before she gets to a hysterical level. 
It will be difficult for you to enjoy riding if you are both bored by a horse giving you a calm and not challenging ride, and also frustrated with a horse that is more than that. As @tinyliny pointed out in her great post, preferring one way or another does not make you a greater or lesser horse person, anymore than it makes you a better person if you prefer swimming over bicycling.



thecolorcoal said:


> This horse is INSANELY challenging. There are so many layers it is unbelievable. BUT. She makes every other horse look easy. I have no problems riding the "standard" challenging horse. Put me on the bucking qh? whatever. The grumpy apaloosa who humps up? no problem. But the tb who will leap into outer space and twist and shout until you're off her back? "..." Not a common animal by any means.


It seems unhelpful to exaggerate in your own mind how difficult your horse is. That is something to build fear or other strong emotions around. If a horse gets upset and gives a hop, throwing her head, or canters off, that is not a huge or very difficult problem. That is often just rider error and a horse that needs a little bit more experience.

Again, not trying to offend but to set yourself up for future success: there is no "standard" difficult horse. Any horse that quickly overcomes or rides through an issue was not difficult. A difficult horse is not standard in any way, and requires experienced riders to experiment and work very hard to overcome their problems. No horse will present the same exact way as another. That is why the most important thing a horseman can do is listen to horses and learn to read them. 



thecolorcoal said:


> The problem I am having is all of this escalates. I say no, she tries something else, I say no, she gets bigger. and bigger, until she has me backing off.


I'm learning to read horses, and it's a lifetime process. @mmshiro has a good handle on it already. A horse that is getting bigger and bigger is not trying to get you to back off or bully you. This is a horse that can communicate in a whisper, but she thinks you are deaf. A horse that thinks the rider is deaf must start talking louder and louder until they are heard. I've been around horses that have learned to shout because no one listens. 

A horse can turn their ear to another horse and the other horse will know what they are saying. A horse that feels they must show you very big body language is not being heard. Sometimes it is a physical problem, such as my horse that was very aggravated about his pain from locking stifles. But often it is just a communication problem between horse and rider. If a horse shouts at you, the last thing you want to do is shout back and end up shouting at each other all the time. Instead, you need to figure out how to respond before the horse gets to that level.



thecolorcoal said:


> ...I can't let her continue to bully me....I ended up having to get off because she was threatening to go up if I kept pushing. In the arena, same thing, but I am more confident and so I pushed her on and instead of getting scared, I got mad. I was done being bullied and intimidated.
> 
> I feel there is a lot to be said about learning how to stand up to your bullies, equine or human. I do not like conflict, but Tyra IS NOT going to make my riding life miserable AGAIN. I'm not going to go back to being frightened and intimidated by her.  she knows ALL my buttons and today she tried to push them and see which ones worked.


Your horse is not trying to bully, intimidate, frighten, push your buttons, or anything like that. You are misunderstanding her completely and this is very frustrating for her. She is frustrated because she can't communicate with you. Whatever she is trying to say, you are giving her cues instead without reward. You don't know how to get her calm, working, enjoying her work. 

The more unhappy a horse is, the more unable to work calmly, the shorter and more positive your sessions need to be in order to make progress. Sometimes you just have to get three steps of moving forward pleasantly, and then get off and do something the horse likes. You're working on trying to train her by negative reinforcement, and that is a difficult road with a sensitive horse. Basically, it sounds to me like you are taking a horse that would be calm and easy and turning her into a frustrated and upset horse.

I would suggest thinking of everything your horse does as a reaction to some external stimulus rather than a personal attack, and to stay devoid of any emotion. Even if I correct a horse strongly or use my voice loudly, I very rarely associate any personal emotion to it. You are training, not arguing with your sister. This is ideally an emotionless state. If I ever feel emotion getting involved, I stop the session and try another day.

Always consider that there might be some pain or discomfort involved, as well. 
This sounds critical, but it is all meant in a spirit of hopefulness that you and your horse can learn to become an effective team and enjoy each other. I love horses and love people, and the best thing in the world is seeing a good pair working together.


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## Foxhunter

Well said gottatrot! Extra likes for you. 

Tinyliny - I perfectly nderstand you wanting a peaceful ride! Absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. There are way more people who side with you and fewer of my ilk that like the bad beggars! :smile:


When I had a reactionary horse I never took anything personally. Some TBs can turn 180 in a nano second. I think the on,y breed that would beat them is an Arab! 

Most horses if they do spun 180 they immediately want to get the heck out of there as fast as they can. I would put one hand on their withers or the pommel and use the other as a brake, lifting the hand higher then normal. The rake hand would always be the one against the direction they spun so I turned them back the opposite way to the spin. 

A horse charging forward to catch up with another isn't a big thing, they are going to stop when they catch up. Heck, I have had racehorses that would canter sideways down the road when in a string and not at the front. I would use a neck strap to pull against, use my seat and legs, often my voice too and a scratch on the withers.
I _never_ allowed myself to get frustrated, just let them do their thing, sitting heavy when they were tizzy and light when calm. 

It works.


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## egrogan

tinyliny said:


> I'm not going to offer any actual advice to the OP. It's not really what she wants, or needs, at least not in terms of riding advice.
> 
> The 'ugly' truth is that some of us do not LIKE to ride horses that are like the mare described. We think we should like it, but the ugly truth is that we don't. We feel ashamed because 'better' riders can do it, and ENJOY the unexpected, the difficult, the naughty, the challenge, the scary/thrilling part. Isn't that what all of us are supposed to work toward, as we grow as riders; to be able to handle and ENJOY handling the more difficult, 'higher' level horses?
> 
> But, I'll confess right here. I DON"T ENJOY THAT. and I think I am not alone. I do NOT get a thrill out of a bolting horse, that I jsut barely control. I don't find it personally gratifying to work a hot horse down by allowing it to run off full tilt until it's tired enough to walk along. I don't consider it fun to run the **** off a horse, first. I can do SOME of that, if I have to. But, it isn't something that brings me satisfaction. Indeed, I am fearful, and I end up disliking it so much that I start to dislike both the horse, AND MYSELF!!
> 
> Becuase, somehow I've failed.
> 
> Failed? yeah, becuase I didn't live up to the expectations OTHER people put on themselves, and others, for what makes a hroseperson a 'real' horse person.
> 
> Well, I don't care anymore. I am into enjoyment, not fear, and if a horse is the kind that will erupt at any moment, that is taking non-stop 'management' of the bit, is ready to explode, or needs a mile run to get off the excess energy, THAT horse is not for me. And, I won't let others 'shame' me for that feeling.
> 
> Consider the above. could you be like me? Could you be someone who REALLY just wants a nice ride? There is no shame there.


 @tinyliny, this is the best reflection I've read on any post on the Forum in a long time. I guess because it so perfectly captured how I also feel. I spent a lot of time worried about all the things I "should" be able to do, and finally admitted that I don't enjoy that kind of riding experience. Thanks for putting those thoughts out there so clearly! Having a match between preferences of horse and rider is so important, and sounds like there is a real mismatch here that's not serving either side well.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

gottatrot said:


> Some more information on the one-rein stop:
> 
> How Dreamcatcher describes it is different from how many people teach it. I don't use it myself - but have taught others to use it to help them feel more secure. If I can get a horse to stop with the head turned to the side, I see no reason why I can't get them to stop with their head straight. If the horse is too worked up to stop safely, but I don't want them to continue forward, I turn or circle them.


Maybe I didn't write that as clearly as I should, I was really tired last night. I NEVER meant to pull the head around to the knee for the stop. The flexing is before you take a step. On the one rein stop, I hold my one hand steady, holding the rein on the neck and grabbing the pommel or horn of the saddle if necessary, and then I pull straight back with the "braking" hand and I pump, never hold tight because I don't want to give a horse who's been taught to brace against your hands a reason to do it. And I don't just yank back, I increase pressure and say "Whoa" and pull back. I don't mean to say bring their nose to your knee, dig down with your seat, set the one hand, and pull back with the other one. The idea is to get the horse to stop bolting, not necessarily to come to a total stop. I also will disengage the hind but that comes in a little later. You can get the stop before you start making the horse disengage. If you read back, I've gone over the whole thing several times in this and other threads about this mare where I discuss getting her to drop out of her bolt, then putting her in a small circle and tipping her nose to the inside while pushing her hip to force the back legs to cross over and round her up under the seat. The horse can't bolt off or buck when they're crossing those hind legs over on the circle. Once you've gone around the circle a few times, just giving the horse time to get her brain back, then you can let up and let her stop square.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

tinyliny said:


> The 'ugly' truth is that some of us do not LIKE to ride horses that are like the mare described.
> 
> But, I'll confess right here. I DON"T ENJOY THAT. and I think I am not alone. I do NOT get a thrill out of a bolting horse, that I jsut barely control. I don't find it personally gratifying to work a hot horse down by allowing it to run off full tilt until it's tired enough to walk along. I don't consider it fun to run the **** off a horse, first. I can do SOME of that, if I have to. But, it isn't something that brings me satisfaction. Indeed, I am fearful, and I end up disliking it so much that I start to dislike both the horse, AND MYSELF!!
> 
> 
> Well, I don't care anymore. I am into enjoyment, not fear, and if a horse is the kind that will erupt at any moment, that is taking non-stop 'management' of the bit, is ready to explode, or needs a mile run to get off the excess energy, THAT horse is not for me. And, I won't let others 'shame' me for that feeling.


Totally with you Tiny. Because when you keep riding horses like that and setting yourself and them up for failure what happens is that you quit riding. You start finding reasons to not go to the barn or the trainer's and pretty soon, you just don't go anymore because you've shot your confidence to H*ll. There's no call for anyone to shame someone who isn't into riding the hot ones. When I was a kid and up until I was about 40, I didn't mind if the horse was a little difficult. I know now that it's that 2% of the time that you're over horsed that can kill you or injure you so badly you never walk again. Nobody gets to tell me who or how I ought to ride, it's my horse, my pleasure and it's my pain if it goes wrong. I don't mind a horse who makes me work for a good ride, but I will not ride one who crosses over into the 'dangerous behaviors' zone any longer. I'll leave that for the "crash dummies". I'm totally into low and slow these days, which is one reason I've taken up dressage instead of jumping.


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## Avna

One of the reasons this thread is so long is that the OP has a difficult horse which she is afraid of, does not have the skills nor the personality to bring around, and is having an awful time of it, but simply cannot let go of the goal of herself and her horse not just in harmony but in love, her image of herself as never backing down from a challenge, being able to overcome all obstacles, being a Horse Rescuer, and her associated fear of feeling that she's failed her horse and herself. You don't have to read this forum very long before you notice that The Wrong Horse is the source of a lot of long threads. 

Horses are optional, and every individual horse is also optional. The only reason to keep a horse at all is because you enjoy it. If you dread it, agonize over it, or are just plain sick to death of it, there is nothing really standing in your way to moving it on to some better place except your own expectations and image of yourself. The Forever Home Myth has damned many a horse to a miserable or at least untapped existence and many a rider to spending all their time on the ground.

I only know a few people who can easily cut their losses, quit digging a hole, and get out from under a problem an animal is causing them. And those people are by and large ranchers who deal with livestock all day long. Sheep that's a bad mother? Freezer camp. That one cow that breaks out of the fence all the time? Auction truck. Horse who doesn't want to be a nice ride? Sell it to someone who has the time to deal with it. And move on. Animals come and go, life is short and work is hard, don't make it harder.

Horses fill a lot of emotional niches for people these days. Some of those niches are really ornate. As evidenced by this thread. Untangling all the different beliefs, dreams, imaginary scenarios, complicated excuses, and fanciful narratives the OP has going for this horse -- and herself -- makes my head hurt. 

I am with @tinyliny. I personally have no interest in an adrenalin-fueled ride. Let those who do, deal with the horses who dish that out. The OP has several times stated that for her there are two kinds of horses -- deadhead "broken-spirited" horses which are too boring for her, and her horse, whose unpredictability makes her freeze up with fear, whose respect she hasn't obtained after two years of work. Well, gosh, what about the tens of thousands of horses who are somewhere in between?


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## thecolorcoal

@*gottatrot* , i understand what you are saying in your posts. at the same time, we've only been at this barn for about 3 weeks. at our old barn we had very few of the above mentioned behaviors because the trainer was very good at shutting it down before it even could get started. this horse was worked very hard. the idea was that she was desperately looking for a job (which is true) and i was confusing her by giving her too many jobs but not anything that she could really sink her horsey teeth into. i want to do trails. dressage. jumping. endurance. all these disciplines, but tyra was more comfortable with one: jumping. dressage was just when I worked her, and she was difficult because the kind of flat work they wanted out of her for hunters was very different than what I wanted for dressage. out of 7 days of hunter/jumper flatwork, she could put up with 1 day of dressage. she didn't seem to understand why 6 days of the week she could have her nose above the vertical, and 1 day of the week it had to be on the vertical, and her and i had many arguments over that. but the trainer's answer to everything was just to force her to do it and wait for her to submit. and i'll admit it worked. i don't know why, i don't know how, but it got her subdued enough where the bucking and spinning and headshaking went away almost overnight, but i had to be incredibly tough and firm with what i wanted and not let a single issue go. 



the fact that she spooks under saddle but doesn't spook on the ground? i am trying to understand this one. i think many people underestimate how smart and intelligent horses are, how emotional they can be. they are not machines, and they can communicate with humans. they are not JUST instinctual beings who are reacting based on the sound in the distance, or the squirrel in the bushes. because if that were true ALL horses would be spooking at those things, and not all of them do. some horses ONLY spook under certain conditions, some don't spook at all but react based on a growing inner anxiety, not an external stimulus.


she's crossed that junk pile fine for 2 weeks. suddenly i can't get her past it. at all. i got off of her to walk her by it. guess what? when i got on i could barely ride her, because I had given into her and got off which is what she wanted, and now she thinks she has me all figured out. so no, at some point i cannot feed into her anxieties, whatever they are, and i have to be strong and not let her see that scaring me means we can go back to the stall. i got off and on 3 times just to test this pattern, and every time i got on her feet started dancing and my anxiety rose. it was getting dark. there were sirens in the distance and *i didn't feel secure in my saddle* <-- seems to be the common thread that gets me and tyra unglued. i don't know how to fix the last one without more lessons and perhaps a saddle i trust. 



if i can SIT these jigs and jags i feel i wouldn't even be posting this thread.


----------



## thecolorcoal

I found this article extremely telling and helpful


https://horseandrider.com/blog/when-your-horse-bullies-you

@*gottatrot* , i see your point but i also want to give you this scenario:
last night, donkeys in the round pen
tyra hates donkeys, tyra gets scared
ok, understandable. i get off. try to get her feet moving
feet are moving, but as soon as she stops, back to donkeys
try again, same thing.
eventually she's calm enough for me to get back on
we walk, she starts to swell, i try leg yield
super resistant, not calming down. shoulder in
still resistant, will do it, but energy not changing
as soon as she's straight it's back to tippy toes
haunches in, works but straight again she's jigging
make a circle, back to straight, back to tension
figure 8's for 5 minutes, straight still tension
finally get off. she's still tense, looking over at donkeys.
i realize i shouldn't have done that. get back on. firetrucks in distance.
i get nervous because she's already amped up because donkeys.
i get off. firetrucks go by. no reaction from tyra.
i give up, handwalk her home.
get back on, go into arena, she's resistant. i kick on
arena, head up, looking all over. i kick on. 

throwing head everywhere, i start to get angry.
kick kick, tap tap, wiggle wiggle to get her focused
send her FORWARD. We are literally FLYING around the arena at a trot. forward forward.
tries to plant. NO. go FORWARD.
Tries to bunny hop/crow hop. NO. FORWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
after 20 minutes she FINALLY puts her head down, connects to the reins and works. i ride her like this for 2 minutes.
get off, go back to stall.
take her halter off, she rushes into stall and almost knocks me down.
i go right back into the stall, grab her, pull her out. 

smack her chest and back her up. she looks shocked.
CA circle/Parelli circle, idk (not too much of a NH fan), disengage haunches left and right.
back forward side side
take her to arena to let her run around because she is just getting upset
put her back in stall. make her stand and WAIT!
go into stall, come out of stall. go into stall, come out of stall.
Halt in front of stall. take halter off
Doesn't rush, walks quickly but does not trot back to her hay.


for those who are saying pain issues: *you are right.*
There is pain. She is in heat this week and she gets sore in her croup. I know all about this. I am very aware she is reacting as much because she is sore as she is because this is a new place. I've given her a little bute last night to help with the soreness. She gets like this often when she is in heat. At the same time these are the days/weeks when I cave because I get nervous.

@gottatrot or anyone else, what would YOU do differently? this is what I do. It obviously isn't working. *What can I do next time to have more success?*


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## Kalraii

How I imagine @Foxhunter getting bolted on = casually practising leg yields at canter... never-mind me! ****! Love it!
@thecolorcoal forgive me but it really does feel like you cannot see the forest for the trees. You anthropomorphise a LOT. You know how they say a pet is a reflection of its rider/owner.. You say she doesn't listen to you.. but you over-think a lot (and I'm not blaming you for this, anxiety is hard) and likely don't even realise that you're not even listening in the first place.

To conquer her is actually to conquer yourself - but you have to accept that fact first. More often than not when it comes to animal behaviour *HUMANS* _OVER-COMPLICATE_ things. 

I feel for you because your brain must always be in overdrive trying to find solutions.. sometimes you just need to sit back and observe, have a chill pill so to speak  You literally need a fresh slate with her. If there is one thing we can agree on its the fact that yes, while you have made some progress, you have definitely hit a wall. I don't think internet advice is gona help - you need someone right by your side showing you a new perspective. 

But seriously... you think Tyra is bullying you? I'm not saying horses can't be bullies but you literally right now are falling into the trap of blaming the horse... literally.


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## thecolorcoal

@*Avna*


> Horses are optional, and every individual horse is also optional. The only reason to keep a horse at all is because you enjoy it. If you dread it, agonize over it, or are just plain sick to death of it, there is nothing really standing in your way to moving it on to some better place except your own expectations and image of yourself. The Forever Home Myth has damned many a horse to a miserable or at least untapped existence and many a rider to spending all their time on the ground.


excuse me. i have professed countless times that i DO enjoy her. I am NOT "sick to death." Where the heck did you get that from? She is difficult. She is challenging. I am NOT trembling every time I get to the barn. Don't forget this horse is a jumper and dressage horse FIRST, and in the arena she is perfect. I have been through a lot with this horse. This is a story of an underdog, and the least you could be is supportive and helpful because the negativity and "give up now" doesn't help me. it doesn't help solve the situation, if anything it makes me TRULY believe i can't do it. I don't need people tearing me down, I need people lifting me up.


I am not some 16 year old girl with a 4 year old pony trying to train it in her rural back yard. I have a huge support system. I have access to trainers, access to help if I need it. what i don't have access to is people who have been there done that and have been through what i am going through, and i reached out on HF to find those who might be able to step into my shoes and tell me their stories of triumph.


if you don't have anything but negative feedback to provide, avna, i don't think this is the right thread to be posting in.

@*Kalraii* , we've had 3 "fresh slates" so far. we've restarted this horse 3 times, and now my new dressage trainer is going back to square one yet again. we are still at the walk, working on tempo, working on my relaxation and removing my tension. so if we have to go all the way back to the beginning, so be it. this poor horse has had too many different types of training. all i want is ONE school of thought we can stick to forever. i feel for tyra, how confused she must be, and i am trying my heart out, i really am!!! it is frustrating not getting the kind of support i was hoping for. it lights the fire to prove everyone wrong but in that extreme determination to "show them" i get hasty and push further than I should.


every time you ride a horse you train it. isn't that what they say? enough times if the pattern remains the same the horse thinks that is what you want from it. i keep giving up. that is where we are struggling. the trainers i have used never gave up. and i never gave up until my accident. then everything changed.


this wasn't how it always was. only since last october has my confidence completely shattered. i've never had a riding accident before. it was my first, and very traumatic.


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## Foxhunter

She might have pain issues but she was ignoring that 'pain' to mess around because she saw the donkeys. In my book the pain is your excuse not hers. 

You ask what could you have done, my answer would be to have worked her *hard* around the pen where the donkeys were or, taken her saddle off and turned her in the pen with them. 

The fact that she rushed back into the stable tells me at she does not have respect for you. You might well think she does because she is great with her ground work normally. 

You are mistaken, she does that because it is the easy way out. Does what she wants when it suits her. 

Your idea of working a horse and getting its feet moving is probably very different to mine. 

As for her being shocked at you smacking her chest she probably thought it was a fly she hadn't felt.

What is the point of taking her to thenarena and letting her run around because she was upset? You should sort out a problem *the instant it happens. * 

As a child if I was playing up, my mother would say, "If you don't behave I will give you something to think about!" 

It is the same with a horse, if it gets upset then it should have the respect to know that the handler is in charge and if they are ignored then they will get something to think about.


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## SteadyOn

thecolorcoal said:


> take her halter off, she rushes into stall and almost knocks me down.
> i go right back into the stall, grab her, pull her out.
> 
> smack her chest and back her up. she looks shocked.
> CA circle/Parelli circle, idk (not too much of a NH fan), disengage haunches left and right.
> back forward side side
> take her to arena to let her run around because she is just getting upset


Be careful with your timing. When you missed the moment to prevent her/INSTANTLY correct her from barging through you into the stall, everything after that became meaningless to her. Horses only understand instant consequences. If you miss the exact moment to correct, it's unfair to them to try to "punish" them in ways that they won't associate with the behaviour.

She wouldn't have understood the smack in the chest, so to her you were just walking up and smacking her in the chest for... walking back out of the stall with you? Badly timed corrections make a horse more anxious and reactive, not less.


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## mmshiro

No, @*Avna* is not in the wrong thread. History shows she knows what she's talking about, and her contributions deserve consideration. Maybe, she's not in your support system but in your horse's - because your mare's voice certainly isn't to be heard anywhere here. 

Not once did you describe a situation like this:

- Mare created drama.
- I did this and that to defuse the situation and end the drama.
- We moved on.

Instead, it's like,

- Mare created drama.
- I get flustered, amp up the pressure.
- Mare creates even more drama because now she's got double the pressure to deal with.
- I get overwhelmed.

Just look at your use of (dramatic) language: "This is a story of an underdog," not to mention the thread title itself. And the inconsistencies - she's an "angel" in the arena, all your troubles are about trail riding, but you started to work on being _relaxed at the walk_, for the _third time_, in the arena? You say you love this horse, but then you engage in extensive hand-wringing about how awful this horse is *to you*? Don't you feel just a little bit silly about thinking that a horse spends all her free time plotting how to get you? Finding all your buttons and pushing them? (That, too, is a quote.) 

Your horse may indeed be a knucklehead, spoiling for an argument. Have you ever considered not giving her one by not taking it personally? Deescalating? Could you try to tell her what you want her to do without "Oh my god, how can you do this to me -I saved you!" in the back of your head or even the forefront of your mind and motivation? . By your own admission, you want to know how to "_Shut her down!_" That shows you are looking for tools to escalate the argument - without ending up being the loser. 

If you were two people with a choice, I'd say you are in a codependent relationship, feeding off each other's dysfunction. But your horse doesn't have a choice whether to remain in this relationship or not, and by and large, horses crave peace and cooperation. That's why a lead mare can move anyone in the herd with a flick of the tail and a pinned ear...constant drama is stressful to horses, they try to figure out how to avoid it. Your horse is locked in a struggle with an owner who craves confrontation.


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## Kalraii

thecolorcoal said:


> I found this article extremely telling and helpful
> 
> 
> https://horseandrider.com/blog/when-your-horse-bullies-you
> 
> @*gottatrot* , i see your point but i also want to give you this scenario:
> last night, donkeys in the round pen
> tyra hates donkeys, tyra gets scared
> ok, understandable. i get off. try to get her feet moving
> feet are moving, but as soon as she stops, back to donkeys
> try again, same thing.
> eventually she's calm enough for me to get back on
> we walk, she starts to swell, i try leg yield
> super resistant, not calming down. shoulder in
> still resistant, will do it, but energy not changing
> as soon as she's straight it's back to tippy toes
> haunches in, works but straight again she's jigging
> make a circle, back to straight, back to tension
> figure 8's for 5 minutes, straight still tension
> finally get off. she's still tense, looking over at donkeys.
> i realize i shouldn't have done that. get back on. firetrucks in distance.
> i get nervous because she's already amped up because donkeys.
> i get off. firetrucks go by. no reaction from tyra.
> i give up, handwalk her home.
> get back on, go into arena, she's resistant. i kick on
> arena, head up, looking all over. i kick on.
> 
> throwing head everywhere, i start to get angry.
> kick kick, tap tap, wiggle wiggle to get her focused
> send her FORWARD. We are literally FLYING around the arena at a trot. forward forward.
> tries to plant. NO. go FORWARD.
> Tries to bunny hop/crow hop. NO. FORWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> after 20 minutes she FINALLY puts her head down, connects to the reins and works. i ride her like this for 2 minutes.
> get off, go back to stall.
> take her halter off, she rushes into stall and almost knocks me down.
> i go right back into the stall, grab her, pull her out.
> 
> smack her chest and back her up. she looks shocked.
> CA circle/Parelli circle, idk (not too much of a NH fan), disengage haunches left and right.
> back forward side side
> take her to arena to let her run around because she is just getting upset
> put her back in stall. make her stand and WAIT!
> go into stall, come out of stall. go into stall, come out of stall.
> Halt in front of stall. take halter off
> Doesn't rush, walks quickly but does not trot back to her hay.
> 
> 
> for those who are saying pain issues: *you are right.*
> There is pain. She is in heat this week and she gets sore in her croup. I know all about this. I am very aware she is reacting as much because she is sore as she is because this is a new place. I've given her a little bute last night to help with the soreness. She gets like this often when she is in heat. At the same time these are the days/weeks when I cave because I get nervous.
> 
> @gottatrot or anyone else, what would YOU do differently? this is what I do. It obviously isn't working. *What can I do next time to have more success?*


You have been told what to do by people who ride horses like Tyra. As for your scenario you are very detailed which is good - but it is also disappointing to see that you failed to include any rewards or offerings of relaxation. Either you forgot to include those moments or they didn't happen. I imagine that it can be hard when you are frustrated, angry and fearful to say "good girl!" and mean it. You wont attain perfection so try to reward the try, the "nearlies" as I call them. From what you say especially about going forward and then napping is that she WAS _trying_ but was confused about what you wanted. If I was her I'd be pretty mad if I was told I was wrong all the time. In your scenario EVERYTHING she did was wrong. So at that point it is a bit like "well why bother trying?" I bet there were several points you could have praised her to let her know everything is OK. Katie charged around and it was reassurance she needed not punishment. I believe there are several people on here who take the firm, obediance route. The reason it works is because they are able to do it without being emotionally compromised. Their clear intent and instruction is likely a comfort to the horse. 

Your scenario to me described a horse that just wanted to get away from their rider. Call it disobedience or bullying or both. You should wonder why and it's not because she's in heat. I know this is hard to hear. Like really, I do. Some responses on here might come across as a personal attack. But regardless of how it makes you feel try to take the constructive parts from it. I have learned a LOT from this thread and your troubles with Tyra, which I am very grateful for. There are some bitter pills on here and believe me - we've all had to swallow them at some point in our lives. I personally would rather hurt your feelings than have you kicked in the face for ignoring the obvious. Please please please try to take a step back and see her as a horse, rather than some demon ottb out to get you >.<


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## Kalraii

And you know it's OK... like everything is OK. This doesn't make you a bad person or a bad owner. You can still be a good person and make a mistake. You can make a mistake and still be worthy. You can mess up big time but more often than not there are second third and even fourth chances. Animals are very forgiving and I think people should be more forgiving of each other. 

If it makes you feel better I once lose someones cat on a tv set. It escaped, while I was putting on the gps collar in the van.. with the door open. A huge heck up. Never found the cat. It makes my heart drop every time I think about it. You know how bad that makes you feel, you just lost someone's baby. But you go on and promise that you won't make the same mistake twice. Putting my head in the sand and blaming the cat for being scared doesn't make things better...


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## thecolorcoal

@Kalraii, that’s kind of why I had the trainer in the beginning. I agree I am almost too emotionally invested in this horse and am seeing things through rose colored glasses! I’m not going to deny this at all!

I am also not going to deny I suck. I’m not going to argue with anyone trying to help or trying to give me a reality check. But what people either don’t realize, don’t know, or don’t care to take into consideration is I am 100% devoted to this horse, but I feel like a first time parent who sees their kid as special and perfect and a gift to the world, not recognizing when that kid is totally taking advantage of my devotion and love for it. Not because it is BAD or wrong but because I let it happen.

I let these things happen. I’m ok with saying such. I do praise and reward because it helps. I didn’t mention the times I did but I am in an utter headlock. Some are saying “don’t let the horse get away wirh it!” Some are saying “have compassion and break it down!”

Which path am I following? Which path is going to get me the most support on my journet with Tyra? I’ll admit I am becoming more and more defeated with the constant criticism, even well meant but NOT because I believe I am right or that no one has a right to help or share their opinions.

I am feeling deflated because I am here all by myself with nothing but a single ore to get to shore. And the help I get is telling me to abandon the boat and get in their boat because it’s easier than trying to row with one ore.

I want another ore so I can row myself and my boat back to shore. And when I hire these trainers they want me to stand back and not participate in the training process. They will “mAke” the horse for me and I get on and ride it. But when they are not there anymore? I can’t ride the horse because no one has taught me how!!! ;-;

I am trying to do everything everyone tells me to do, and it’s not working for me... but if I go off the path that is expected I follow I get yelled at 😞 this happens offline too. If I try and do something with Tyra outside of what the trainer’s restrictions are I am told I can’t do it because I am not good enough.

It is extremely disheartening and affects how I feel and treat my horse, which in turn affects how she feels and treats me. And that is where the spiral of doom comes in. I get into my head believing we can’t bexuae everyone says we can’t, and she starts to believe we can’t as well.


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## SilverMaple

Stop personifying your horse. That's a huge part of your problem. Get over the romantic notion that your horse will behave because she loves you. In the descriptions you've mentioned, your reactions and timing are not the right ones to help your mare. They are instead contributing to your issues be rewarding anxious behavior and ignoring any effort she has made to calm down. You two are feeding off each other.


I still think Warwick Schiller's methods will help you, but this won't be a 'go to one clinic or watch a few videos and fixed' thing. You need to completely change how you are interacting with this mare and with horses in general. It will be humbling if you do it. If you want to keep her, you need to change. And when you change, she will change. If you don't want to change, then you need a different horse who will not feed off your apprehension and drama. She will not change unless you do. If you don't want to change, do yourselves both a favor and let her go to someone who will help her, and find yourself a more suitable, calm, quiet, obedient mount.


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## thecolorcoal

It seems being able to ride “A horse” and being able to ride “this horse” are not the same, and that makes me both sad and relieved because it means I have to completely go back to equestrian preschool. A schoolmaster won’t help me. This isn’t a matter of “skill” or general education, this is a matter of specific education specific to this horse. I need to learn how to ride her. I can ride, but she is a totally different language and I am seeing the more I try and expect her to fit into my conventional box
Of what a horse should and shouldn’t be the more frustrated and upset I will become.

I need to let go of my conventional ideas and LISTEN to her and let her tell me how she wants to be ridden.

Light bulb moment. Maybe then I will finally be able to make some progress.


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## SilverMaple

It's not 'can you ride this horse/any horse/school horse/whatever'. It is 'can I effectively communicate with this horse and adapt my riding and handling to what this horse needs at this point in time.' You will notice that great riders can get along with nearly any horse; often the ones nobody else can handle, and they do so because they go into it thinking like that particular horse, not like a rider. They don't go "what do I need to do to get the horse to do X." They think "what does this horse need me to do to help him do X."


HUGE difference.


----------



## egrogan

thecolorcoal said:


> Which path am I following? Which path is going to get me the most support on my journet with Tyra?


No one but you can answer that. If you've worked with multiple trainers and spent time on online forums like this, you have to know that if you ask 10 horse people for advice, you'll get 15 conflicting answers. YOU have to decide, and then surround yourself with people who can both affirm that direction and give you critical feedback that helps keep you understanding why you are doing what you are doing. 

Look, I'm a linear thinker. I have a PhD in quantitative statistical methods. I _crave _for a+b=c. But every statistical model beyond basic arithmetic contains some uncertainty, some error that you try to reduce by factoring in reasonable inputs. But, at least in my field, a really excellent statistical model might still only explain 30-40% of the outcome that you're studying. The rest is just...unknown...unmeasurable. You can't explain it, you have to keep trying to learn and figure out what you're missing, and run the model all over again to see if it's improved its ability to successfully predict your outcome.

I think I love being around horses so much because you can't model your way to an outcome. There is no way you can accurately predict an outcome 100% of the time, because the inputs are infinite, some that you can't even see you're missing. You have to think, adapt, try to understand. What works for one horse and rider might not work for the very same horse and rider when you put them in a different scenario. Maybe you can model out the likely outcome for the horse and rider based on their most common scenarios, but then you change just one thing- the intensity of the flies, the person with the red shirt standing along the rail, the half scoop of a supplement a barn hand forgot to feed that day- and the outcome you expected doesn't materialize. There is no certainty in horses.

I like to think of myself as objective- even though no human can truly be objective- and my hopefully objective opinion is that if you communicate with your horse like you are communicating here, she must be thoroughly confused. In one post, you say one thing, and then the next seems to contradict it. That is NOT criticism, just observation. It sounds like you need to do a lot of self-exploration to figure out which philosophical horsemanship tradition are you going to follow, what type of activities you enjoy doing with a horse, and what horse- either this one or another one- can enjoy those activities with you. No random internet stranger can answer those questions for you, and no one in person can either.

Have you gone and taken any lessons on schoolmaster types in any of the activities you enjoy? It sounds like you need a break from ridden work your horse to focus on _you_ for awhile while you decide how you want to approach her future.


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## thecolorcoal

@SilverMaple that is exactly where I am trying to go. “Trying” being the operative word. But whenever I think “ok this is what she wants” sometimes it changes. Usually, I’ve noticed that there are times when standing still and looking ease her anxieties, and there are times when moving forward ease her anxieties. The varying factor is her level of stress in that moment. Low level of stress requires us to stand still and let her have a moment to process, higher levels of stress require her to move her feet and release the anxiety that way before it bottles up.

So it’s not that I haven’t been aware it’s just sometimes I have to relearn


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## SilverMaple

You need to go back and teach her how to release her own stress so she never gets to a 'higher level of stress.' You will never be able to keep a 1300-lb flight animal from becoming worried about something. But you CAN teach that 1300-lb flight animal how to control himself and deal with smaller anxieties so when he encounters a bigger one, he knows how to deal with it without exploding or shutting down. I think you're missing a lot of cues she's giving that she's worried or anxious until they become BIG cues, and then you get apprehensive and then things go downhill from there.


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## thecolorcoal

egrogan said:


> thecolorcoal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which path am I following? Which path is going to get me the most support on my journet with Tyra?
> 
> 
> 
> No one but you can answer that. If you've worked with multiple trainers and spent time on online forums like this, you have to know that if you ask 10 horse people for advice, you'll get 15 conflicting answers. YOU have to decide, and then surround yourself with people who can both affirm that direction and give you critical feedback that helps keep you understanding why you are doing what you are doing.
> 
> Look, I'm a linear thinker. I have a PhD in quantitative statistical methods. I _crave _for a+b=c. But every statistical model beyond basic arithmetic contains some uncertainty, some error that you try to reduce by factoring in reasonable inputs. But, at least in my field, a really excellent statistical model might still only explain 30-40% of the outcome that you're studying. The rest is just...unknown...unmeasurable. You can't explain it, you have to keep trying to learn and figure out what you're missing, and run the model all over again to see if it's improved its ability to successfully predict your outcome.
> 
> I think I love being around horses so much because you can't model your way to an outcome. There is no way you can accurately predict an outcome 100% of the time, because the inputs are infinite, some that you can't even see you're missing. You have to think, adapt, try to understand. What works for one horse and rider might not work for the very same horse and rider when you put them in a different scenario. Maybe you can model out the likely outcome for the horse and rider based on their most common scenarios, but then you change just one thing- the intensity of the flies, the person with the red shirt standing along the rail, the half scoop of a supplement a barn hand forgot to feed that day- and the outcome you expected doesn't materialize. There is no certainty in horses.
> 
> I like to think of myself as objective- even though no human can truly be objective- and my hopefully objective opinion is that if you communicate with your horse like you are communicating here, she must be thoroughly confused. In one post, you say one thing, and then the next seems to contradict it. That is NOT criticism, just observation. It sounds like you need to do a lot of self-exploration to figure out which philosophical horsemanship tradition are you going to follow, what type of activities you enjoy doing with a horse, and what horse- either this one or another one- can enjoy those activities with you. No random internet stranger can answer those questions for you, and no one in person can either.
> 
> Have you gone and taken any lessons on schoolmaster types in any of the activities you enjoy? It sounds like you need a break from ridden work your horse to focus on _you_ for awhile while you decide how you want to approach her future.
Click to expand...

Great response and you are right. New place, new expectations. Whereas before I was riding her once a week at most, now it’s just me and only me every day. And I am not as consistent as leaser and trainer in my expectations.

The important part is I don’t have my head in the sand and can say the situation as it is, because only then can I fix it. I hate people who shut out others because it makes them uncomfortable so I try not to be that person.

That is probably part of the problem. I keep switching paths and beliefs because I am someone who DOESNT want to be ignorant. I want to learn and grow but in my attempt at trying all 31 flavors poor Tyra would rather just have her one flavor that comforts her and she can expect what it will taste like.

You’re right, we need to find a school of thought and grow our roots. Tyra does much better with structure, I’ve noticed this. I do much better with structure as well!


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## thecolorcoal

SilverMaple said:


> You need to go back and teach her how to release her own stress so she never gets to a 'higher level of stress.' You will never be able to keep a 1300-lb flight animal from becoming worried about something. But you CAN teach that 1300-lb flight animal how to control himself and deal with smaller anxieties so when he encounters a bigger one, he knows how to deal with it without exploding or shutting down. I think you're missing a lot of cues she's giving that she's worried or anxious until they become BIG cues, and then you get apprehensive and then things go downhill from there.


Yes I agree 100%. I need to do better by her. Also goes back to my struggle With sticking With one school of thought.


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## Avna

As far as I can tell at least in this thread, no one is telling you conflicting things. You just aren't understanding how to train a horse. You need firmness AND praise AND timing AND calmness. You need to be a wall and you need to be a door. And you need to be those things exactly when it is appropriate, because it is worse than useless if you do it at the wrong time.

Here's a small example that just happened to me. I have a new pony who came to me just halter broke although she is older. She is a sensitive little thing and not very used to working with people. A couple weeks ago I tried leading her out of the barn and she wouldn't go. Planted her feet. She did not do this for any complicated reason like a lack of trust in me. She just didn't want to leave her friend (my horse), and thought maybe she could make that happen for herself. That's all. I immediately put on my training hat. I backed her up fast and trotted her around the barn fast and made her turn on her haunches and forehand and then did it all over again. Then I asked her to go out of the barn again. Nope. So I ran through the whole routine again. I put an edge into it --wake up! mind me now! Then I asked her for the third time and she walked out like nothing happened. I said good girl and even though I intended to take her across the road I just put her away, as a reward for making the right decision. 

Notice here: I did not think this was about me. Because it wasn't. I did not make it any more complicated than it was. I didn't treat as an act of rebellion. Because it wasn't. She was just trying something on to see if it worked. It didn't work, so she gave it up. I acted a little mad to get her worried but not enough to panic her. But I was not mad. I was just saying, you made the wrong decision, and this is why. Want to make the right one? After she made the right one, I let her go. 

She gave no more trouble until yesterday, when I needed my husband to lead her while I drove her in long reins. She balked for him, because he knows nothing about horses and was uncertain, so she thought she had an opening. So I took over and although I needed to move her around a little she gave it up a lot quicker than the first time. I had my husband lead her out (but she was watching me).

Today she *almost* balked for me but I let her think about it for a sec and then asked her again and she went out with no problem. What was I letting her think about? Whether to make the right decision. You bet I could see her pony brain weighing the options based on her experience. 

I'm writing about this because this kind of thing comes up ALL THE TIME with horses. They do something you don't want them to do, you make it clear that is not the right thing AND (very important) that there IS a right thing and as soon as they do it, good job buddy! Take five. If you don't give a horse a place to go to get it right -- to feel it being right -- you are the problem. If you let a horse create their own agenda, you are the problem too. If you get all emotional about something like unwanted behavior and attribute all sorts of complicated motives to it, _*you are the problem*_. The horse is not the problem.

I don't have a problem pony, although she was a problem to her former owners. I just have a pony who is feeling out the boundaries of her new world. I am one of them.


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## thecolorcoal

@Avna I think I’ve agreed and made it clear this is more about me than the horse and it’s good that is something we all share. I think how you are describing you working with your pony is similar who what I am trying but I am not wording it right and obviously painting a picture that is more dramatic than I intended to make it and that is my fault.

I believe strongly in praise. Over the course of owning this horse I have met people who don’t believe in praise and those who don’t believe in discipline. Again, here we go - 1 schools of thought! Both accomplish goals in different ways with different horses.

I haven’t been able to follow the tradition “warmblood and quarter horse” training mentality with Tyra. I mean no disrespect to those breeds. My experience has been it’s easier to intimidate them. Growing up those were the only horses I rode.

This is my first Tb. I’ve been learning as i go. Disagree with this all you want but living in the present this is the situation. I am a hunter rider who came from the culture of push button ponies ridden in DTW to patch up training holes, and when I bought this horse I knew that’s not how I wanted to train her.

But she is smart! She is not a dumb animal. I’ve riddeb high priced expensive warmbloods who has fewer brain cells than this cheap Facebook purchase. She is brilliant and that is what makes her such an amazing show horse.

We are 2 weeks into our new barn. I should have expected some “testy” or as as avna calls it “trying out” behavior. I thought we were all hunky dory and let my guard down.

I don’t know who my comments are going to stick with because I post something I think is falling in line with someone’s thoughts and I get told “no you are romanticizing!!!” So I can’t see the horse as more than an animal with 4 legs and a mane and tail??? I can’t see it as a spiritual being?


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## SteadyOn

thecolorcoal said:


> We are 2 weeks into our new barn.


Okay, now THAT is pretty important info. That may be a major source of your _current_ increase in tension with her, if it's suddenly gotten worse with the move.

For example.... The steady eddie older school horse I ride was very anxious and reactive for the first two weeks after we moved her to the winter barn last November. She was so stressed she even colicked after a fairly light ride, one morning. One horse got ulcers from anxiety and we spent the rest of the winter trying to get that under control, and his owner could barely ride him, it made him so volatile. Another turned into a spooky nightmare to handle. The pushy green five year old was actually the best behaved of the bunch!

It took them a solid month to settle in, and the one with ulcers took almost the entire winter.

If you're getting this frustrated, and she's this wound up, some ten-year-old-girl time spent with her might be good for you both while you settle in. Back off from your riding and training schedule. Still have boundaries handling her, but just... like... hang out. Don't be goal-oriented all the time with her. Spend quality time. Hand-graze her, take her for walks like a big dog, and just let yourselves both chill and settle in for a bit. Remember that just being around her is FUN!


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## SilverMaple

A horse, like all life, is a spiritual being. But you're romanticizing into this storybook meeting of souls that because you love and have put time into this mare she should be responding in kind, and that's not the way horses think. You aren't getting conflicting information here.... go back and read through again. Everyone is basically telling you the same thing. You need to change how you are thinking and responding to this horse in order to help the horse, or you need a different horse.


You are two weeks into a new barn. That's a big change for you AND her. And even if you don't realize it, you're probably asking more of her than you usually will to make a good impression on the new barn riders or trainer.


Slow down. Go spend a week or two on Warwick's philosophy and videos--- I think you will find he is much more in-line with how you want to communicate with your horse than you think. Go spend time with your horse just doing fun things. Brush her and love on her if she enjoys that and put her away. Turn her out into the arena and have a photo session. Lead her to a shady spot and let her graze while you read a book. Pack a lunch and lead her out on the trails and enjoy a hike with your mare. Put away the agendas and expectations and just 'be' with her. When you have a good grasp on it, do some of the focus and relaxation work and call it a day. There is no timetable on this. It takes the time it takes. But I bet if you really stick with it and put preconceived notions and emotions and other peoples' expectations aside, you will see a big change in your mare AND yourself and your way of interacting with her. Some find they can do the groundwork and return to riding very quickly. Others take months or even longer, but keep at it. Let the horse dictate the pace you will be going. For a horse who has been pressured, sometimes the biggest issue is letting them realize that they really CAN relax.


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## thecolorcoal

SteadyOn said:


> thecolorcoal said:
> 
> 
> 
> We are 2 weeks into our new barn.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, now THAT is pretty important info. That may be a major source of your _current_ increase in tension with her, if it's suddenly gotten worse with the move.
> 
> For example.... The steady eddie older school horse I ride was very anxious and reactive for the first two weeks after we moved her to the winter barn last November. She was so stressed she even colicked after a fairly light ride, one morning. One horse got ulcers from anxiety and we spent the rest of the winter trying to get that under control, and his owner could barely ride him, it made him so volatile. Another turned into a spooky nightmare to handle. The pushy green five year old was actually the best behaved of the bunch!
> 
> It took them a solid month to settle in, and the one with ulcers took almost the entire winter.
> 
> If you're getting this frustrated, and she's this wound up, some ten-year-old-girl time spent with her might be good for you both while you settle in. Back off from your riding and training schedule. Still have boundaries handling her, but just... like... hang out. Don't be goal-oriented all the time with her. Spend quality time. Hand-graze her, take her for walks like a big dog, and just let yourselves both chill and settle in for a bit. Remember that just being around her is FUN!
Click to expand...

Thanks Steady. We were sort of able to transition her from old barn to new barn(last time) through a super strict work schedule where no minute was unaccounted for. But we aren’t in full care anymore. We didn’t have any issues but that was because the trainer and barn manager micro managed her existence down to the minute. It really really helped her reset and calm down. We originally moved to the nice barn for the same issues I am describing in this thread. With a more militaristic approach we were able to at least keep a lid on a lot of it.

But now we are back to lalala.... little structure, playdays, just existing. I thought this would be better for Tyra but maybe it isn’t?


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## SilverMaple

I think the change is not as hard on Tyra as it was on you, and she's reacting to your unfamiliarity with what to do without the militaristic micromanagement of what to accomplish daily.


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## thecolorcoal

SilverMaple said:


> I think the change is not as hard on Tyra as it was on you, and she's reacting to your unfamiliarity with what to do without the militaristic micromanagement of what to accomplish daily. <img style="max-width:100%;" src="http://www.horseforum.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />


Maybe but I am THRILLED we left that barn. I was so miserable there. I am so happy where we are now.


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## Foxhunter

Well said Avna, more likes needed. 

What I have seen in life whether with horses, dogs or children, the boundaries need to be set and adhered to. At first those boundaries are tight but as trust and confidence grow so those boundaries widen. 

The person who is firm but fair, will gain the trust and confidence far faster than the one who is lenient. What teachers did you like and enjoy the most? Bet it was the firm but fair ones. 

I always say that it starts in the stable, insisting the horse stands in one place without being tied, not walking to the door just because it is open. Moving over if you walk behind them. Stepping back when you enter the stable to give you room. Corrections made if they don't. These are not with force but with firmness amd consistency - Every time. 

Emotions should never enter into training, as Avna says she acted mad but wasn't really. I bet her heartbeat didn't change an iota. It shouldn't. 

You keep saying she is a thoroughbred so what difference does that make? She raced years ago, so what? A horse is a horse is a horse. Every one of them is unique, everyone of them can be reactionary, but the same rules should apply to all. They may have to be adapted in certain circumstance but basics remain the same for all.


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## thecolorcoal

@Foxhunter I respect your views but I will say I strongly disagree. A human is a human is a human? Are we all the same? The debate of human nature still rages.

Horses are bred for different things. Each breed has a touch of uniqueness to it that separates it from other breeds. 

My training philosophy has always been a partnership. Moving in the crossties is whatever. Moving when being tied is ok. As long as it isn’t done in a way to hurt the human. I like the horses I ride to have a bit of an independent mind. I like horses who require you to earn your seat in the saddle. I don’t like horses who give it to you because you are a human and therefore you deserve it. That is why I chose this horse over a very well trained schoolmaster.


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## Kalraii

I think @Avna has it perfect, really. Horses do have personality and yes you can see them as having a spirit. That's not the issue. The issue is that you are attributing human thoughts and perceptions to them, which is dangerous and over-complicates things unnecessarily. Get this:

In the last fortnight Katie has bolted on me, tore down a fence and tried to kick me twice. Phew, that sounds dramatic put like that haha. I mean how DARE she... I saved her from her hunter life, twisted snaffle and poorly fitting saddle. I am paying 2k to have a ct done of her head as the vet things a previous rider dislodged her jaw by hand braking her hard, making it uncomfortable to be bitted. Just two weeks ago she was so tired from the heat I was really kind and cut our hack short, because she was telling me she was too tired (and hungry). And then... she bolts on me and tries to kick me?! HOW HURTFUL! I cannot believe she would do this.I trusted her.. I thought she trusted me. The traveller girl told me that it's because Katie's smart and probably does it to get out of work, or to plot my demise so I dont ride her....

*OR:* she bolted because she was very amped up after her wasp attack a few days ago and hadn't see her friends since. And she tried to "kick" me because I was distracted and not focusing at the task at hand: washing her tail. I was rubbing conditioner into her dock rather close to her hoo-hah. Common sense dictates you should be paying attention when you're working around a horse's genitals but nope... this person though THAT was a good time to stop and chat -,- I was trying to get rid of her. My dumb mistake was in not stepping away and pausing. I tried to chat and continue it. Katie did NOT like that one bit but since I was facing AWAY from her she had no choice but to escalate. I put HER in that position, not the other way around. Of course, she SHOULD just tolerate it and obediently stand there. I bet a few people here would have given her a CJM. Thing is she just lifted it and when I immediately turned around to face her she put it back down. She didn't swat or pump it. The moment had passed. Too late too correct. I made dumb mistake number 2: I chose in that second to refocus on the person talking to me and reached for her dock again. Up came that hoof, but even second time around she didn't swat it. She held it up and was looking back at me as if to say "You continue and I will." But her expression was rather nice, ears forward, bright focused eyes, it didn't match the behaviour of her hind leg nor did it match previous ear pinning and ugly faces when she is truly upset.

I asked the person to leave as it was distracting me and guess what? She was fine with me washing her dock and even sponging her hoo-hah. I paid a lot of attention and was well prepared to correct her if it happened a third time. But it didn't. The very simple lesson I learned: to not allow myself to be so distracted when working around her hinds. That's it.


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## SilverMaple

I see a lot of OTTB's done the disservice of having misbehavior and training issues allowed with 'she used to be a racehorse'. So? Racehorses have also been saddle horses for centuries, many were solid citizens in spite of much poorer training and handling and vet care than most have today. Stop making excuses and address the problem you have today, not why it happened. You will never know why. Sometimes its abuse. Sometimes its past experience. Some horses who have never had a bad thing ever happen to them act like they were abused daily. It doesn't matter WHY the horse is acting a particular way or why it's afraid. Deal with the situation you have right now-- the horse is anxious and worried and reacting because of it. It doesn't matter why she's doing it. 

I see the same thing in dogs with the allowance of certain behavior/fear/aggressiveness because 'he's a rescue' or 'he was abused.' People think it will be too upsetting to correct or deal with the issue because of what may or may not have happened in the past. No. Animals live in the present, and people would do animals a great service by remembering that and dealing with the issue at hand today, not lamenting over how it became an issue. Now, that doesn't mean not allowing the animal to express his fear or discomfort or what have you-- by all means, you want that so you can deal with it. But deal with it as in 'this horse is afraid, how can I help him not be afraid' or 'this horse is bolting, that needs to stop' rather than 'this poor horse is afraid! It must be because she was raced and thinks she needs to be ahead of the other horses. I don't want to correct her because she's remembering being whipped in a race.' No, just.... no.

Deal with the horse you have today. Not yesterday or last week. Not the one that existed 7 years ago, and not the one that you wish you had by now. Today.


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## Kalraii

@Foxhunter I heard from my trainer that respect begins at feeding time, specifically. They WILL let you control that feed bowl or so help them. I have to agree with that. The way someone let's their horse snatch food from them says a lot IMO... same with treats. The way people let horses MUG them.


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## thecolorcoal

SilverMaple said:


> I see a lot of OTTB's done the disservice of having misbehavior and training issues allowed with 'she used to be a racehorse'. So? Racehorses have also been saddle horses for centuries. Stop making excuses and address the problem you have today, not why it happened. You will never know why. Sometimes its abuse. Sometimes its past experience. Some horses who have never had a bad thing ever happen to them act like they were abused daily. It doesn't matter WHY the horse is acting a particular way or why it's afraid. Deal with the situation you have right now-- the horse is anxious and worried and reacting because of it. It doesn't matter why she's doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> I see the same thing in dogs with the allowance of certain behavior/fear/aggressiveness because 'he's a rescue' or 'he was abused.' People think it will be too upsetting to correct or deal with the issue because of what may or may not have happened in the past. No. Animals live in the present, and people would do animals a great service by remembering that and dealing with the issue at hand today, not lamenting over how it became an issue.


That is very interesting because I have a dog now and am running into the same problems with perception. Dog people seem to be way less tolerant of training the horse people. Trying to work with a highly aggressive dog that happened to be abused (NOT MY DOG JUST A GENERAL EXAMPLE) adds another level of hate from dog lovers. It seems you cannot do anything but positive reinforcement with dogs without being seen as abusive.

Horses is different. Positive reinforcement seems to be labeled as weak, scared, and ignorant and in the end detrimental for the horse. Positive punishment seems to be more widely accepted because the argument is it mirrors how horses act in the wild involving physical and mental pressure.

I am constantly berated for how I work with my dog as he is very difficult and I often have to resort to some serious tactics. But because he is a dog it is somehow cruel. With a horse it is accepted?

Stepping back I don’t understand the hypocrisy.


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## SilverMaple

I am a dog person. I show and train dogs and have for years. I've seen a change over the last 20 years to a large percentage of dog people now tending to be bleeding-heart animal lovers who can't stand the thought of any animal being uncomfortable, even momentarily, even if it will help the dog in the long run. Many dog people are also vastly disconnected from the dog itself and how dogs process, learn, and act vs. the warm fuzzies unicorns and butterflies he LOVES me and appreciates me because I RESCUED him mindset. Gah. These people also tend to have misbehaving dogs because they can't be bothered to train them properly. 

No. Just no. Not all dogs are Lassie. Some dogs do very well with positive-only training-- particularly well-bred dogs owned by competent people since puppyhood who have not been allowed to develop serious training or behavioral issues. Others do need a correction here and there. Some people cannot see the difference between an aggressive dog and a dog who is sharp-shy or reactive, and there is a HUGE difference in how you deal with that. Use a correction on an aggressive dog already in that mindset and you'll bring up drive and make him worse. Use correction/redirection before he gets to that state, and you will make progress. Use a correction on a fearful dog, and you just reinforced that he has something to be scared of. A well-timed correction, if needed and in a manner that is fitting and understandable to the dog for disobeying a command the dog knows and is deliberately blowing off is not a bad thing. I do primarily positive reward-based training with three exceptions-- once the dog knows the command backwards and forwards and knowingly disobeys, I will correct for disobeying a recall, blowing through an emergency down, or chasing stock when not under command. I use an e-collar for this, turned down to a level just high enough for the dog to notice it but so that I can increase the level on the controller if needed. It usually takes 2-3 corrections before that dog is 100% solid. Those three are no exception commands for me as they may save a dog's life-- a recall is obvious, a drop on recall (your dog is running toward you and you realize a car is also coming--- if you can drop that dog into a down until the car passes, you just saved his life) and no chasing stock unless commanded to. All three are there to protect that dog's life. I will take 2-3 corrections that didn't traumatize the dog that guarantee my dog can be called off chasing a deer, etc. over nagging a dog or having one decide that even though he usually comes running when I call him, that squirrel headed for the highway looks a lot better than the treat he usually gets.... I think an e-collar, properly used, is a lot kinder than a lifetime of nagging corrections or a dead dog. 

Horse people tend to be a little more connected to common sense than some dog folks, although that is also becoming rarer. It's only a matter of time before curb bits, saddles, or riding of any sort is viewed the same way a training collar is on a dog.


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## Avna

thecolorcoal said:


> That is very interesting because I have a dog now and am running into the same problems with perception. Dog people seem to be way less tolerant of training the horse people. Trying to work with a highly aggressive dog that happened to be abused (NOT MY DOG JUST A GENERAL EXAMPLE) adds another level of hate from dog lovers. It seems you cannot do anything but positive reinforcement with dogs without being seen as abusive.
> 
> Horses is different. Positive reinforcement seems to be labeled as weak, scared, and ignorant and in the end detrimental for the horse. Positive punishment seems to be more widely accepted because the argument is it mirrors how horses act in the wild involving physical and mental pressure.
> 
> I am constantly berated for how I work with my dog as he is very difficult and I often have to resort to some serious tactics. But because he is a dog it is somehow cruel. With a horse it is accepted?
> 
> Stepping back I don’t understand the hypocrisy.


Maybe take another step back. I tend to ignore all the people whose animals don't behave the way I want mine to. People who have responsive, respectful animals who are interested in their work are the people I pay attention to. The rest can talk all they want, I just watch the walk.


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## Avna

thecolorcoal said:


> @Foxhunter I respect your views but I will say I strongly disagree. A human is a human is a human? Are we all the same? The debate of human nature still rages.
> 
> Horses are bred for different things. Each breed has a touch of uniqueness to it that separates it from other breeds.
> 
> My training philosophy has always been a partnership. Moving in the crossties is whatever. Moving when being tied is ok. As long as it isn’t done in a way to hurt the human. I like the horses I ride to have a bit of an independent mind. I like horses who require you to earn your seat in the saddle. I don’t like horses who give it to you because you are a human and therefore you deserve it. That is why I chose this horse over a very well trained schoolmaster.


I think Foxhunter has trained more horses than there are cornflakes in a cereal box, and when she says something is true I am inclined to say not just yes but yes _ma'am_. 

In the statement you just made I can see just why you are having trouble with your horse.


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## loosie

gottatrot said:


> If you want her to express her emotions, then you have to listen to them before she gets to a hysterical level.
> It will be difficult for you to enjoy riding if you are both bored by a horse giving you a calm and not challenging ride, and also frustrated with a horse that is more than that. As @tinyliny pointed out in her great post, preferring one way or another does not make you a greater or lesser horse person, anymore than it makes you a better person if you prefer swimming over bicycling.
> 
> 
> It seems unhelpful to exaggerate in your own mind how difficult your horse is. That is something to build fear or other strong emotions around. If a horse gets upset and gives a hop, throwing her head, or canters off, that is not a huge or very difficult problem. That is often just rider error and a horse that needs a little bit more experience.
> 
> Again, not trying to offend but to set yourself up for future success: there is no "standard" difficult horse. Any horse that quickly overcomes or rides through an issue was not difficult. A difficult horse is not standard in any way, and requires experienced riders to experiment and work very hard to overcome their problems. No horse will present the same exact way as another. That is why the most important thing a horseman can do is listen to horses and learn to read them.
> 
> 
> I'm learning to read horses, and it's a lifetime process. @mmshiro has a good handle on it already. A horse that is getting bigger and bigger is not trying to get you to back off or bully you. This is a horse that can communicate in a whisper, but she thinks you are deaf. A horse that thinks the rider is deaf must start talking louder and louder until they are heard. I've been around horses that have learned to shout because no one listens.
> 
> A horse can turn their ear to another horse and the other horse will know what they are saying. A horse that feels they must show you very big body language is not being heard. Sometimes it is a physical problem, such as my horse that was very aggravated about his pain from locking stifles. But often it is just a communication problem between horse and rider. If a horse shouts at you, the last thing you want to do is shout back and end up shouting at each other all the time. Instead, you need to figure out how to respond before the horse gets to that level.
> 
> 
> Your horse is not trying to bully, intimidate, frighten, push your buttons, or anything like that. You are misunderstanding her completely and this is very frustrating for her. She is frustrated because she can't communicate with you. Whatever she is trying to say, you are giving her cues instead without reward. You don't know how to get her calm, working, enjoying her work.
> 
> The more unhappy a horse is, the more unable to work calmly, the shorter and more positive your sessions need to be in order to make progress. Sometimes you just have to get three steps of moving forward pleasantly, and then get off and do something the horse likes. You're working on trying to train her by negative reinforcement, and that is a difficult road with a sensitive horse. Basically, it sounds to me like you are taking a horse that would be calm and easy and turning her into a frustrated and upset horse.
> 
> I would suggest thinking of everything your horse does as a reaction to some external stimulus rather than a personal attack, and to stay devoid of any emotion. Even if I correct a horse strongly or use my voice loudly, I very rarely associate any personal emotion to it. You are training, not arguing with your sister. This is ideally an emotionless state. If I ever feel emotion getting involved, I stop the session and try another day.
> 
> Always consider that there might be some pain or discomfort involved, as well.
> This sounds critical, but it is all meant in a spirit of hopefulness that you and your horse can learn to become an effective team and enjoy each other. I love horses and love people, and the best thing in the world is seeing a good pair working together.


As you can't 'like' posts more than once, I'll have to just let it be repeated...


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## SueC

Yep, @*loosie* , that one gets the overall prize from me too! Great advice. 

Lots of buckets of water on this thread, many of them filled with very nice water. :clap: A thirsty horse won't be dehydrating anytime soon with all this water on offer.


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## loosie

thecolorcoal said:


> the fact that she spooks under saddle but doesn't spook on the ground? i am trying to understand this one. i think many people underestimate how smart and intelligent horses are, how emotional they can be.


Agreed that many people underestimate that. Also that many - including you it seems - OVERestimate how 'intelligent' and capable of rational, human-like thought horses are. 

As to the riding v's on the ground, I imagine you're a lot more confident on the ground for starters. You have admitted to being nervous about her behaviour when riding, you cannot control her, you are not listening & being considerate of her until she gets to the point of 'shouting' at you... they're a few good reasons for her to be more reactive, more resistant to you when you're riding.



> i got off of her to walk her by it. guess what? when i got on i could barely ride her, because I had given into her and got off which is what she wanted, and now she thinks she has me all figured out. so no, at some point i cannot feed into her anxieties, whatever they are, and i have to be strong and not let her see that scaring me means we can go back to the stall. i got off and on 3 times just to test this pattern, and every time i got on her feet started dancing and my anxiety rose.


This is an eg of reading too much human thinking into it. As gotta said, in the post I just re-quoted completely, she is NOT doing it to 'push your buttons' or because she wants to scare you or anything like that, but because YOU are also anxious, you've shown her the situations that make her nervous also frighten you, that you're not going to be considerate of her point of view, just try to force her into things....

FWIW, further to my previous comments about my guy, and relating to what Tiny said & about what EVERYONE is saying about preconceived ideas about what you 'should' be able to do... your ego, if you like... I never lost confidence on the ground with my boy, but there was a point where I could not even THINK of throwing a leg over without getting anxious myself. And I kept thinking what a failure I'd become, that I 'should' be able to do this, because I'd done it all my life previously without fear. What was wrong with me?? I 'should' just put my big girl panties on & MAKE myself do it. What came out of that was a vicious circle of my horse getting more nervous & reactive, me getting more frightened.... 

Forcing the issue is NOT the answer. Going back to a point where we were BOTH confident of EACHOTHER and progressing in baby steps from there, not 'overfacing' EITHER of us was the way we got over it. And having studied behavioural psychology, having trained animals for many years, having taught scared kids to ride, taught scared horses to be ridden, shy dogs to be confident, I KNEW that already, but my ego and self-talk about what I SHOULD be able to achieve was seriously getting in the way, and eroding not just my confidence, but my horse's confidence in me. 

It was not about my horse(except what I inadvertently turned him into), it was about ME. It is not about _your_ horse either, it is about _you_. If you want your horse's attitude & behaviour to change, you need to change your own.


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## tinyliny

Having already said I had no riding/training advice to offer , and instead focus on my suggestion that you are in all likelihood, over horsed, and not enjoying it (as I would be, with that mare), let me offer some feedback, specific to what you have shared below. My comments in RED




thecolorcoal;197058274
want to give you this scenario:
last night said:


> Did you get off because you felt you could get her feet moving better from the ground than from her back? Because, if you are in Round pen (RP), it seems best to stay mounted and get her busy, from the saddle. I think getting off is one signal, and then suddenly, and perhaps frantically, getting after her feet is more likely to impart an urgent anxiety than just staying on her and keeping her bending and walking, bending and walkin . . . . [/COLOR]i get off. try to get her feet moving
> feet are moving, but as soon as she stops, back to donkeys
> try again, same thing.
> eventually she's calm enough for me to get back on
> After reading the next part of your description, it sounds like she was not really 'ok' about the donkeys. She might have been calm enough for you to remount, but her mental state was not really changed. If you felt ok about riding her NOW, then why not have stayed on ride her back when she first started getting anxious? I think you remounted without ANY REAL CHANGE happening in how she felt about the donkeys.
> 
> Horse training involves getting a change, a REAL change, in order for any real improvement to occur. When we continut on, without the first step of any training having taken 'root', we will have very unclear communication, and blurry progresss, if any.
> 
> 
> I would not have remounted until she was SO calm that she was ok with eating in the RP, and did not amp up again if you left, or if you turned your back a bit, or if you asked her to canter, then let her stop and ignored her. I mean, so that it was clear that the donkeys were boring to her.
> 
> we walk, she starts to swell, i try leg yield
> super resistant, not calming down. shoulder in
> still resistant, will do it, but energy not changing
> as soon as she's straight it's back to tippy toes
> haunches in, works but straight again she's jigging
> make a circle, back to straight, back to tension I've had this experience. It is very frustrating. I feel for you. Remember to breathe, and use one rein at a time, never solid, two handed pulls.
> figure 8's for 5 minutes, straight still tension
> finally get off. she's still tense, looking over at donkeys.
> i realize i shouldn't have done that. get back on. firetrucks in distance.
> i get nervous because she's already amped up because donkeys. Again, I feel for you. firetrucks can be scary. If you know you are best off dismounting, do it as soon as you hear the trucks, do it slowly, and do it as if it has NOTHING to do with the coming trucks.
> i get off. firetrucks go by. no reaction from tyra.
> i give up, that is great that she didn't react. I'd be petting her a bit and getting all 'bored' around her. If you are on the ground, take her for a little hand grazing. handwalk her home.
> get back on, go into arena, she's resistant. i kick on
> arena, head up, looking all over. i kick on.
> 
> You missed an opportunity to end on a good note. She was calm, had weathered some stressful experiences WITH you. You should have put her away with THAT as her last experience. By going into the arena, you threw away this gift.
> 
> 
> throwing head everywhere, i start to get angry.
> I'm not going to say I never get angry. I do. But, we shouldn't. If you know you're angry, stop pushing, find something successful and easy, spiral down out of the negative energy, and call it a day. Thoughtful quitting choices are also foundational to good training.
> 
> 
> kick kick, tap tap, wiggle wiggle to get her focused
> send her FORWARD. We are literally FLYING around the arena at a trot. forward forward.
> tries to plant. NO. go FORWARD. oh, this is when I get really uncomfortable; when a horse is going at full gait around and around and I just KNOW that my presence on her back has ZERO meaning in JUJU!
> Tries to bunny hop/crow hop. NO. FORWARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> after 20 minutes she FINALLY puts her head down, connects to the reins and works. i ride her like this for 2 minutes.
> get off, go back to stall.
> take her halter off, why take halter off outside of stall? entering and exiting is prime ground for teaching respect and manners. Do it again, and again, and again until she does it right, THEN take halter off.she rushes into stall and almost knocks me down.
> i go right back into the stall, grab her, pull her out. ok. as long as it's IMMEDIATELY after the 'offense'.
> 
> smack her chest and back her up. she looks shocked. Too late for chest smacking. too late. just work on redoing it. My guess is that she has some anxiety about squeezing through tight places. Work on getting her to be able to take one step at a time, through the doorway. this will be a good thing for you to work on with her, on the ground, out on the barn grounds, using fences or other tight places.
> CA circle/Parelli circle, idk (not too much of a NH fan), disengage haunches left and right.
> back forward side side
> I HATE this kind of stuff. It can help if you know how to do it well, and have practiced ahead of time in a calm place. But, doing it hurried and angry usually just amps up a nervous horse all the more.
> 
> take her to arena to let her run around because she is just getting upset
> might help, but can also transmit this :
> 
> from horse's perspective; I am scared, human is scared. She makes me move around more and more , faster, tighter, jumpier. Makes me feel out of control and scared of her, and then I 'get' to run even more in the arena. works to get my freedom. ok, now I know what she wants of me; to run more!
> 
> put her back in stall. make her stand and WAIT!
> go into stall, come out of stall. go into stall, come out of stall.
> Halt in front of stall. take halter off
> take halter off IN stall, when her job is completely finished.
> 
> Doesn't rush, walks quickly but does not trot back to her hay.
> 
> 
> for those who are saying pain issues: *you are right.*
> There is pain. She is in heat this week and she gets sore in her croup. I know all about this. I am very aware she is reacting as much because she is sore as she is because this is a new place. I've given her a little bute last night to help with the soreness. She gets like this often when she is in heat. At the same time these are the days/weeks when I cave because I get nervous.
> 
> @*gottatrot* or anyone else, what would YOU do differently? this is what I do. It obviously isn't working. *What can I do next time to have more success?*





I hope my perspective can be of help. I feel for you, I do. Like I said, I don't get off on working with difficult horses.


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## SueC

This one's specifically for you, dear @thecolorcoal. :hug:

The trickiest horse we're ever going to work with is our own mind. That's an opaque and ornery horse full of hidden surprises, but a horse that needs all our compassion and understanding and patience and persistence. Working with this horse will help us work with all the other horses in our lives. Conversely, working with other horses can also help us to work with this one, and show us when we need to work with this one, and why. inkunicorn:

Zen people would say: Monkey mind racing in circles. :dance-smiley05: 
It's not a pleasant sensation, and not a productive thing, but how to calm it down? When the mind bolts, what do we do? :runpony:

Different people find different solutions to this common problem. It's an especially common problem if you had trauma growing up. Your mind will react very much like a horse will, and on a very instinctive and survival level. Our rational minds don't like all this anxiety and don't know what to do so commonly go racing off in fast, unproductive circles, all sound and fury and signifying very little. :blueunicorn:

Do you have personal strategies that have worked for you for reining in your mind when it starts to race off with you? :gallop:

If your number one horse isn't calm at the core, your four-legged horses will have trouble being calm too, especially if they are very reactive and nervous types themselves. :charge:

There aren't any easy fixes for it, and it takes time, but progress is possible. 

And that number one horse: You didn't make it that way. It was pretty much a gift horse. But you can nurture it and work with it and get its trust, and then wonderful things can happen - like being truly in the moment and in your surroundings, the same way the sun is in the sky.

 Sue

:apple:


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## gottatrot

Edit: This was posted at a similar time to the above posts, so I apologize for redundancies with @loosie and @tinyliny - however, you can see the similar ways of approach from different trainers, even without reading what each other wrote!



thecolorcoal said:


> ...i see your point but i also want to give you this scenario:
> last night, donkeys in the round pen
> tyra hates donkeys, tyra gets scared


What would I have done? I wouldn't have tried to fly before I could crawl. Start right here: Tyra is scared of donkeys. You go on to describe how you rode her and tried to do a variety of things, and in the end, "she's still tense, looking over at donkeys."

My goals would revolve around the fact that either the donkeys are going to be a permanent part of the scenery, so I need to teach my horse about donkeys, or else I'd think it was a good time to have my horse practice calming herself after becoming nervous. Which can be helpful in a variety of situations.

If you never achieve a degree of calmness, it doesn't matter what type of figures you are carving into the footing, because the horse isn't focused enough to learn anything. 

I had a similar scenario with my TB not long ago. There were elk around where I wanted to ride. I tried briefly to see if my horse would be calm and focused even with the elk, but one elk was focusing on us and hopping toward the fence when we trotted. So I got off and just lunged my horse for exercise but didn't try to teach him anything. The goal was just to have him try to be calm with the elk there. 

If he had still seemed too nervous while lunging, I would have backed down a step and maybe taken him out to graze with the elk some distance away, so he could observe them while eating. 

With the donkeys, I'd have worked on seeing if she could walk some distance by them without getting nervous, find a spot where she could graze and watch them to adapt. I'd want her to figure out that they were not going to affect her, and learn to be calm near them. After we were around the donkeys several times and they no longer bothered her, then I might try to ride her near them. 

Now after riding your mare for awhile you thought she was able to focus for a couple of minutes, but I don't think she was able to calm because she then rushed into her stall as a very nervous horse might after facing something like frightening donkeys. 

Finally, you let her out in the arena and that is when I believe she finally was able to achieve some calm, by moving her feet and not being confined. After that you were able to walk her in and out of her stall and she didn't rush. So that was when she was finally able to calm herself. 
*We can't force horses to calm, so we have to teach them how to calm themselves in a variety of circumstances. That is a huge part of trail horse training.
*
From your perspective, you were making her work and do things and correcting her. I believe from her perspective she was in a mental haze of: donkeys-donkeys-donkeys-killer donkeys-gonna get me- the whole time you were riding and that accomplished nothing. Progress could have been made if you could have gotten her anxiety level down by having her learn that donkeys don't eat horses. 

So that's what I would have done differently.


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## SueC

Here's Julian fresh on our place last November, spotting the killer donkeys:


Introducing Julian V – Red Moon Sanctuary, Redmond, Western Australia by Brett and Sue Coulstock, on Flickr

He begged political asylum of the horse herd immediately, and when I opened the gate to admit him, found safety amongst their ranks - as well as different attitudes to donkeys.

Cool cucumber now - but one thing at a time with horses. The state he was in, the only work I could have done with him is showing him the donkeys - and only because the horse and I already had a prior working relationship; I was his co-trainer when he was getting his harness education. If he was new to me and I to him, my first step would be to work with him away from donkeys and other scary things to get our own working relationship established. After that I could have approached the donkeys with him, and would have done that on a lead rope and keeping myself between him and the donkeys, until he was relaxed enough to not need the mother horse type shield from something scary anymore.

But in this particular situation, the horse herd could teach him the same thing, and did.



So all cool bananas now.



Lots of little things, one thing at a time. ;-)


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## loosie

thecolorcoal said:


> I found this article extremely telling and helpful


Horses learn to do what works for them & quit doing what doesn't work, simple as that. But you have to be considerate of WHY they're doing stuff in order to know how to best address it, and it seems you are misinterpreting... a lot. Yes, there are 'horse bullies' - those who are confident within themselves in any situation & know they can take control & call the shots. That is a HUGE difference to the far more common(& what it sounds like here) horses who 'misbehave' out of fear, whether or not these horses are also inadvertently trained to be more fearful, more reactive, because that behaviour works. If you treat a fearful horse like a 'bully' and try to force the issue, it WILL get worse.

And it cuts both ways - people are very often serious 'bullies' to horses too. Often, it seems, without having a clue how they're coming across.



> tyra hates donkeys, tyra gets scared
> ok, understandable. i get off. try to get her feet moving
> feet are moving, but as soon as she stops, back to donkeys


So you acknowledge she is scared, but you stay within the 'scary' vacinity, ignore it and just make her move her feet? Why? What are you trying to achieve?



> eventually she's calm enough for me to get back on
> we walk, she starts to swell, i try leg yield
> super resistant, not calming down.


You are still within the 'scary' vacinity of donkeys. You KNOW she is not confident when you're on her back, so there should be no surprise that she is more resistant/reactive in scary situations.



> get back on, go into arena, she's resistant. i kick on
> arena, head up, looking all over. i kick on.
> throwing head everywhere, i start to get angry.


You have shown her you aren't willing to consider her point of view, or look after her in scary situations, you're just going to try to make her do stuff regardless. And kick her for it. So there's little wonder she's taking that with her into other situations that aren't innately scary. Then you get angry about it, adding more fuel to the fire...

Here's a scenario for you... you are taken alone to a place full of dangers & predators, by an alien who doesn't speak your language, is not interested in understanding your fears, keeping you safe, just in making you do what they want. You can also see that many situations they force you into also make them frightened too. 

This person repeatedly tries to bully you to approach places where you suspect predators to be, repeatedly puts you in danger. When they get too worried themselves, they ensure they are in a safer position themselves, while still forcing you to do their will regardless of your safety. They punish you & wear you down enough that you sometimes see no choice but to submit to the bullying...

Lets forget, for a minute, how you might *behave*(because we know even human brains can become 'obedient' in the face of terror) and just focus on your *attitude & emotions*. Would or would not this sort of situation promote trust in your captor? Would it promote you gaining confidence in your environment? Would it make you calm, relaxed, happy??



> take her halter off, she rushes into stall and almost knocks me down.
> i go right back into the stall, grab her, pull her out.
> smack her chest and back her up. she looks shocked.


Afraid all of what you write further just strengthens my idea that what you need to do is to leave this horse alone, bury(deeply) your current attitudes & ideas, and instead go study equine psychology & behaviour, so you can _start_ to understand & be considerate of her, and of what you're doing to her. Quit being a bully.


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## Acadianartist

So much great advice in here... I've missed quite a few post, and don't have time to get caught up (I've been working with my own difficult mare instead, which these days, seems far more important that coming on HF, as enlightening as it is), but I wanted to say that many here are giving you excellent advice. It seems like you need to take a step back and put yourself in your horse's shoes. Clearly, the idea of "keeping her moving" isn't working so you need to try something else. I don't have answers because I am working with a reactive horse myself, and our progress is slow, with occasional setbacks. But one thing I've learned is how to connect with her so we understand each other better. I also don't think harsh methods work with fearful, anxious horses. And since it hasn't worked very well for you so far, you may want to start over. 

Be patient. It's going to be a slow process. And read all the advice with a great deal of attention, over and over.


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## loosie

Kalraii said:


> If it makes you feel better I once lose someones cat on a tv set.


:rofl: I'm sorry, that wasn't funny, was it? :hide:


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## loosie

thecolorcoal said:


> It seems being able to ride “A horse” and being able to ride “this horse” are not the same, and that makes me both sad and relieved because it means I have to completely go back to equestrian preschool.


Agreed. Horses are generally easy creatures & we can usually get away with a lot of not-so-great stuff with most of them. Then we find the ones that test our assumptions & knowledge & find out how little we know. We have all been there... or if we haven't, we're still novices... 



> This isn’t a matter of “skill” or general education, this is a matter of specific education specific to this horse.


From what you've told in this thread, I disagree thoroughly with that one. It sounds to me like you do indeed need better 'general education' and it's not just about this horse, but that you are just not understanding her horsiness, and that your timing & training ideas need... tweaking too. 

Of course, you will always get a bunch of different opinions, and you need to have enough knowledge to know WHY one may be better than another *in any given situation*. Eg. Fox telling you you should have 'worked' the horse far harder near the donks & me telling you you should have been more considerate of her fear. Part of this I think is due to our inability to KNOW - just make educated guesses based on what you've said & our experiences - whether this horse is indeed scared or whether she's simply 'got your number'. I think it sounds like she's genuinely afraid, so I'd approach that way differently than I would with a horse who was simply saying 'no, don't wanna'.



> Of what a horse should and shouldn’t be the more frustrated and upset I will become.


Yep, 'should' & 'shouldn't' are real ******s more often than not I reckon, especially with animals, who live in the present. If you can just BE with her honestly, wherever you're both at NOW, then I think you'll find more 'lightbulb moments'.

But do take some time first to read up on equine psychology & ethology, and also on the principles of learning/teaching. On the second note, I still think the little old(er) book by Karen Pryor "Don't Shoot The Dog"(not a dog book) is a great one for simply explaining the hows & whys of the 'laws of learning'. And in absence of remembering any titles sites particularly good on horse behaviour(tho from out of the depths, 'the white horse project' or some such comes to mind), "Dogs Are From Neptune" by Jean Donaldson(IS a dog book, but with SOOO many correlations...) would also be incredibly helpful to you I reckon.


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## Dixiesmom

I hope you don't take this as an attack because it isn't meant as such. Reading this thread was very confusing. I understand you have PTSD so that's a big part of my "Huh?" reaction. At some points it seemed she was blowing up and uncontrollable a lot, the it was 2% and it was a little hop more then what I would think of as full on get the hell off buck and canter or trot to catch up. 

You come across to me as extremely emotional and reactive on your own part which is HIGHLY understandable having had a trauma at some point. Those things may stick around forever on some small scale.

I would say more horses then not don't like being left behind a group. Now if they take off and become dangerous trying to get you off in the process, that's bad. But if she hops a bit and trots or goes into a easy canter to catch up, sure you don't want that, but it doesn't strike me as horrible. 

I think at some point you also said she was ok alone on trails? I'm just confused because on one hand she's blowing up, then it's just a mild reaction and wanting to catch up but not really out of control.

I also think you're romanticizing your relationship or trying to do so. Yes horses are intelligent, but they don't think in the same way we do. It may be hard for any horse owner crazy about their horse to acknowledge, but no matter how great a bond we may have, should another loving owner take them at some point, good old Dobbin isn't going to be thinking I wonder what ever happened to my old owner? They were my favorite.

It really is hard for me to figure out if you have a critical/dangerous issue with this horse, or something that pops up now and then that's annoying. I think no matter what sort of bond anyone has with their horse or how much there is a mutual trust, the possibility is always out there for every one of us for something to pop up that scares the daylights out of the horse. I HATE the term bomb proof even though most who know my horse would call her such. Pretty darn sure if you literally set a bomb off close to my horse, I'd just be praying to stay on or fall softly.

I wish you luck, and again, I'm not attacking you, but maybe dealing with your emotional issues would benefit both of you? And I say that as someone who has been through therapy myself and loved it.


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## lostastirrup

I've done a few TBs, a few weird warmbloods, at present have what I call the world's nerviest arab x, but I still ride him into butte America and drivethroughs. I've done the bolts, the horses that get upset when you try and stop them, and what you have on your hands doesn't actually sound like a major problem. It sounds like you have a spooky horse, it sounds like you don't know how to make trail rides a job for yourself or your horse. And mean business the way you do it the arena. I don't think you will fix it while it remains an emotionally charged issue for you. Because truly it 100% isn't one for your horse. She sees something that is frightening or different and she spooks, they know to do this. Especially TBs and Arabs and the occasional wB. To this day Nick still spooks. It doesn't go away completely, however he is very aware that he has a job. And so spooking is kept to a respectable level. As for a bolt, in my riding I need and like to be able to get From Mach ten to 0 four or five times a ride. There's a cow. I'm in a mood. There's a 4-wheeler to chase, etc. the horse should in the arena practice amping up and down, so that when you're on the trail you can have control over it. It seems to work. Seems to help. Do your one reins there and teach her that those are alright. And that they are alright and calming. Positive reinforcement. 

It might not be a good solution for you- but the "oh you wanted to gallop?" THEN LET'S GALLOP!" works with horses that have a "tired" they hit at some point. I've had limited success with it with my arab, but good results with others, a particular TB comes to mind- I posted a picture of him on your other stretching thread. It's a way to agree with your horse, and let them work out that need to run. Bsms. Had a mare who needed galloping in her training. Yours may be one of those. Or she may not. Who knows. I think Nick would be nervy as hell if I didn't often. Practice amping and galloping him out. He knows how to. He knows what's expected of him in it. So there's little issues with it. 




Honestly one of your most thought through and educated opinion on this would be Bsms, he's extremely detailed oriented and has done spooky horses with good success and probably the best explanations on the HF. Look him up and read his threads. 




You've got some awesome responses on here from really experienced horse people. If you follow through with they're advice you will make good steps with your horse.


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## loosie

thecolorcoal said:


> Dog people seem to be way less tolerant of training the horse people. Trying to work with a highly aggressive dog that happened to be abused (NOT MY DOG JUST A GENERAL EXAMPLE) adds another level of hate from dog lovers. It seems you cannot do anything but positive reinforcement with dogs without being seen as abusive.


Funny that. I think you're over-generalising from your own experience. My experience is that people are quite... punative and against the use of positive reinforcement with dogs too. It's still common that dogs are trained with choke collars, hit for 'bad' behaviour, 'sent to their room'. ... Expected to comprehend abstracted human ideas & have morals... +R is still commonly seen as 'bribery' and that the dog 'should' have a 'desire to please' because you are The Boss and you should always be The Alpha. Just look at the continued popularity of people like Cezar Milan for eg.

Times are a-changing with dogs an horses though, that people are learning to use more positive reinforcement for both. When I wanted to find a training school for my dogs 20 years ago, it took a lot of effort... & a lot of driving to get to one that used reward-based training. While there are still many 'boot camp' type trainers around, when I got my last pups a couple of years ago, I didn't have to look further than the local dog club for that. 

I agree it is *slower* with horses though - 'I give him a pat or say Good Boy, he _shouldn't_ need more than that' and the whole horse culture generally still revolves around bits, spurs, whips, chains... Negative reinforcement(release of 'pressure') & punishment are still IT for most. Those who use +R or do without bits & spurs & such are still looked upon as weirdy-weirdos by the majority. Though not half as much as it was even 10 years ago.

**I am NOT saying I believe solely +R training is the answer at all BTW. I am not against using punishment, if/when appropriate, and with horses at least, I do feel that -R is a good, effective way of teaching. It is just far from the 'be all' and shouldn't be treated as such IME. And more to the point, it is VITAL that whatever 'tool' you're going to use, be it reward or punishment, you need to UNDERSTAND it well enough, to know when, how, why not... it may be used best.

For eg. forcing or punishing a dog for being *fear* aggressive(as I believe most(not all) aggression in dogs is), is just as incorrect and unhelpful as forcing or punishing a horse for reacting in fear. 

Oh and it depends on the 'circles' you're in I think, as to what's considered 'normal' or 'nutso'. In dog obedience circles, I've heard people say 'just because you can use rewards for horses, can't see how it can work for dogs'... or vice-versa. I've heard people who work with mentally handicapped say it's great with people but could never work with animals... & vice versa.


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## thecolorcoal

I’m not going to respond to anyone directly because I have to read them all and I am feeling sensitive, and I know there’s a lot of firm criticism to get through.

I wanted to update everyone following along that I have ordered John lyon’s book and am reading it now. I love it! It’s really helped me solidify the notes and advice of everyone in this thread, so thank you.

Our ride today was amazing. Best ride we had in 4 days. That isn’t to say it wasn’t difficult. I have been working closely with a good friend I have made at my new barn who has an old solid qh and a very problematic tb. She is my eyes and ears on horseback as we conquer the on-site trails and has been immensely supportive. She too tells me I need to stop the negative narrations about this horse because she says they are just not true. It is all in my head.

Today was amazing. There were moments of tension, not going to lie, but I chose to stick with it and fight through my own tension. There were times I asked robin if I could just get off and give up and she said no, I had to get through it. That helped tremendously, to have someone there cheering me on.

We took the easier trail but then went right to the spot where Tyra bolted. I felt her body tense underneath me. I told robin I was nervous but she said there was nothing to be Afraid of, she was right here in case Tyra got jumpy. 

It turned out 100% ok. I am very happy with her. I feel we are going in the right direction. I might have to accept the fact that this is just how this horse is, warts and all.

Robin did say if I had more core and lower body strength the fear of falling and getting bucked off wouldn’t be so great because I would have more strength to sit and stay on, so seems trips to the gym are in order.

I have been listening and absorbing everyone’s help!


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## Foxhunter

thecolorcoal said:


> @Foxhunter I respect your views but I will say I strongly disagree. A human is a human is a human? Are we all the same? The debate of human nature still rages.
> 
> Horses are bred for different things. Each breed has a touch of uniqueness to it that separates it from other breeds.
> 
> My training philosophy has always been a partnership. Moving in the crossties is whatever. Moving when being tied is ok. As long as it isn’t done in a way to hurt the human. I like the horses I ride to have a bit of an independent mind. I like horses who require you to earn your seat in the saddle. I don’t like horses who give it to you because you are a human and therefore you deserve it. That is why I chose this horse over a very well trained schoolmaster.


You just aren't getting it at all. 

I believe that every horse has a true character and in training the animal and trainer should be wearing the same T shirt. 

Movement when tied is not allowed in my stable and by movement I mean swinging around not lifting a foot to ward off a fly.

As for character, who the heck would want any animal to become robotic? 

My last horse, a quality cob, came to me with the label 'dangerous'. He hooked off with the rider when he liked. You couldn't clip or groom his belly, kicked every chance he had. Bit when girthed or saddled. Couldn't lead him to the field without him taking off whether in a halter or with a chain across his nose. Couldn't lunge him if you held a whip or he just took off. If he was lying down the moment anyone walked into th barn he was up. 

Took me less than a week to clip the hair from his belly and between his back legs without him kicking. No dope or twitch. 

After around six weeks his true character came out. He was a comedian, loved to play pranks like removing my woollen hat and dunking it in his water bucket before handing it back. Opening his stable door and escaping, running out one door and back in through the other returning to his stable standing inside looking out through the open door. 

If he was laying down at exercise time he would refuse to get up, going from having his head up to laying flat out acting dead. I could pull md push him amd he wouldn't move, playing along with his game. I would walk out the stable saying I would rode something else and he would be on his feet! 

Can you walk into the stable with your horse eating a feed and standing with a back foot in a pile of poop you want to remove and ask it verbally, to lift that foot so you can get to it and they do? I could with most of the horses. 

So, please do not insinuate that horse I train have the character knocked out of them and become robotic because they aren't. 

Do I use force? No, I don't. I give a choice, Butlins (a holiday camp) or Borstal, easy or hard, their choice. 

Do I ever hit a horse? Answer that in some cases yes, and believe me, if they do get a whack they feel it and most importantly _know exactly what it was for._

When ridden the horses would come onto the bit whether in the arena or out on a ride. Did they spook? On occasions but they would always go past whatever the spook was without any hassle. Did they buck? Out on exercise doing canter work they might well put in a 'yippee, life is great' buck. It was never to drop the rider but just a way of saying they felt great and were enjoying their work and always with warning. 

These were mostly TBs not TBs off the track but TBs that were racing. TBs that came with issues. TBs that (generally) I would have out with hounds and could allow the other riders to charge past me whilst they stood still. They might have fidgeted and wanted to go but trust and belief in me was enough for them _to want to please me by doing as asked._ That is partnership. 

please do not insinuate that any horse I have is made into a robot. 

As for training dogs, I too have a difficult dog, not mine, I train as I see fit. He has had a few whacks with my walking stick laid along his side and he had worn an e collar. The positive trainers had a go at him before he came to me. They gave up saying he should be muzzled and leashed at all times. Now he is off leash and no problem - if he looks like he is going to boss another dog, one word from me and he will turn and loook at me, look at the other dog and then return to my side. 

He is not frightened of me, he respects my authority and would lay down his life to protect me if needed.


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## thecolorcoal

What am I not getting fox hunter? Could I lift my horse’s leg while she is eating to get to the poop? Of course I could, and most horses will let you. I’ve met the rare individual who will give you seriously problems.

Should a horse stand like a statue in the cross ties? Depends on what you want. Can they move around so they can get a better look at things? Sure, why not? Should they be shuffling and swinging themselves around? No. But to be an absolute statue is ridiculous.

I never Insinuated your horses were robotic. I said I didn’t want robotic horses. I don’t want a “yes ma’am, no ma’am, whatever you say ma’am.” I don’t want a slave. I want a partner like everyone else here does.

Maybe it is because I am from a riding culture that generally ignored ground work and chose to work around what they called “quirks” and what most people now call “training issues.” 

Horse won’t stand when tied? Have someone hold them. Horse won’t stand for the farrier? Drug them. Horse drags you around? Use a stud chain. Horse rears in hand? Chifney bit or stud chain.

And that is still very normal “training” where I come from.

I didn’t know anything about natural horsemanship until about 3 years ago, a little before I bought my horse.

I can move my horse left, right, back, forward from the ground. That’s not what I need help with. What I CAN’T do is get her back to me when her mind wanders off. If there’s mules in the round pen and she’s fixated on them, I can ignore the behavior and insist she walk with me. Next thing I know she’s spooked and nearly knocked me over. Was she being disrespectful or was it just an accident because of the spook? Did she PLAN to just run into me or was it an unfortunate result of me not taking her concern of the mules seriously?

I understand, fox, perfectly well, but each barn I go to is either influenced by traditional training or natural horsemanship. And to fit in I have to adhere to the majority school of thought, which just happened to be traditional horsemanship where we can from, along with the personification that horses choose to be bad or difficult or whatever, and if you are in that environment long enough without any alternative ideas you start to believe that too.


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## Foxhunter

I was not talking about lifting a horse's foot to get to the poop I am saying that they are so in tune that me picturing them lifting their foot without me touching it, is enough for them to lift the foot and hold it up whilst I remove the poop. 

That is being in in tune with a horse. 

If you have that then you have the horse in all situations. 

With your horse spooking whilst being led, she was well aware of where you were, slamming into you is disrespect and I would have given her a good hard jerk with the rope, arm waving and growling, then carried on as if nothing had happened. 

I like the horses to know that if I am there I am in charge and if I say it is safe then it is safe. Fear of something is way less than fear of upsetting me. As I said previously I do not go around beating them to get submission. 

_All this carries forward to when you are riding them._


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## thecolorcoal

Foxhunter said:


> I was not talking about lifting a horse's foot to get to the poop I am saying that they are so in tune that me picturing them lifting their foot without me touching it, is enough for them to lift the foot and hold it up whilst I remove the poop.
> 
> That is being in in tune with a horse.
> 
> If you have that then you have the horse in all situations.
> 
> With your horse spooking whilst being led, she was well aware of where you were, slamming into you is disrespect and I would have given her a good hard jerk with the rope, arm waving and growling, then carried on as if nothing had happened.
> 
> I like the horses to know that if I am there I am in charge and if I say it is safe then it is safe. Fear of something is way less than fear of upsetting me. As I said previously I do not go around beating them to get submission.
> 
> _All this carries forward to when you are riding them._


I get What you are saying and that takes a very high level
Of horsemanship to get to of which at the moment I don’t have BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN I NEVER WILL.

i dont beat horses either but I grew up around trainers who did, and trainers who were very open about it and expected us all to follow suit.


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## SueC

thecolorcoal said:


> I can move my horse left, right, back, forward from the ground. That’s not what I need help with. What I CAN’T do is get her back to me when her mind wanders off. If there’s mules in the round pen and she’s fixated on them, I can ignore the behavior and insist she walk with me. Next thing I know she’s spooked and nearly knocked me over. Was she being disrespectful or was it just an accident because of the spook? Did she PLAN to just run into me or was it an unfortunate result of me not taking her concern of the mules seriously?


Hello again! :wave: ...You know, this has already been dealt with in this thread, in _great_ detail: What should be done instead etc. How to see it from the horse's point of view, and respect that a horse is a horse. Nitty-gritty how-to examples. Not everyone advising would do it exactly the same way, so there's different approaches on offer, and that's fine because in life there is rarely a one-size-fits-all solution, we all have to find out what works for us and our horses.

Having read what people have said to you about _horses_ (and I'm ignoring here what some people said about _you_, that's another kettle of fish), I'm pretty confident each and every one of them could do a good job in getting your horse trail trained for their own purposes. The information is here, and I don't see that there are many gaps, and now it's up to you to apply that information (and any other relevant information) to 1) fill in some gaps about horses and training approaches 2) trail train your horse for your purposes, or not. You have my very best wishes for your endeavours. :hug:

One thing I wanted to add, in my capacity as a biologist: Yes, we're all social mammals; people, horses, dogs; and have a _lot_ of underlying similarities as such. We all feel, we all think (not necessarily in abstract language), we all learn, we all communicate, we all bond with other individuals

But we also have differences that need to be understood and respected. I don't treat the horse like a human being, I treat it like a horse; and I treat my dog like a dog and not like a human or a horse (and I love and value all these wonderful species ) - that's part of the respect, to acknowledge that difference and act accordingly. It's like being in China and making an effort to speak Chinese, instead of expecting the Chinese to address you in English. It's like taking your street shoes off before entering a Japanese house. It's like not raising your voice in a nocturnal house in the zoo. This is how you show respect in situations where there are differences between yourself and others.

To respect an animal is not to treat it like a human, or to treat a horse like a dog, or a cat like a cow - it's to see their horse-ness, dog-ness, cat-ness, cow-ness etc, and to know as much as you can about what that entails in each case (very like learning about a particular language and culture before you visit that country), and to be a real fan of that actually, and then to make contact in a way that's going to work for both sides in a cross-species interaction.

We've got to understand the language and culture, so to speak, of the horse, and not make the mistake of thinking that those are the same as our own, or that it's motivated by the same things. We've got to try to get in their shoes, and try to see what they see, and to act in a way that makes sense to _them_, rather than to us. I think that's a really crucial part of respect for animals.

And I think both the similarities and the differences are part of what makes working with horses, or dogs, or any other animals, so fascinating - and why I also really enjoy having friends from other human cultures.


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## Avna

loosie said:


> Agreed. Horses are generally easy creatures & we can usually get away with a lot of not-so-great stuff with most of them. Then we find the ones that test our assumptions & knowledge & find out how little we know. We have all been there... or if we haven't, we're still novices...
> 
> 
> 
> From what you've told in this thread, I disagree thoroughly with that one. It sounds to me like you do indeed need better 'general education' and it's not just about this horse, but that you are just not understanding her horsiness, and that your timing & training ideas need... tweaking too.
> 
> Of course, you will always get a bunch of different opinions, and you need to have enough knowledge to know WHY one may be better than another *in any given situation*. Eg. Fox telling you you should have 'worked' the horse far harder near the donks & me telling you you should have been more considerate of her fear. Part of this I think is due to our inability to KNOW - just make educated guesses based on what you've said & our experiences - whether this horse is indeed scared or whether she's simply 'got your number'. I think it sounds like she's genuinely afraid, so I'd approach that way differently than I would with a horse who was simply saying 'no, don't wanna'.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, 'should' & 'shouldn't' are real ******s more often than not I reckon, especially with animals, who live in the present. If you can just BE with her honestly, wherever you're both at NOW, then I think you'll find more 'lightbulb moments'.
> 
> But do take some time first to read up on equine psychology & ethology, and also on the principles of learning/teaching. On the second note, I still think the little old(er) book by Karen Pryor "Don't Shoot The Dog"(not a dog book) is a great one for simply explaining the hows & whys of the 'laws of learning'. And in absence of remembering any titles sites particularly good on horse behaviour(tho from out of the depths, 'the white horse project' or some such comes to mind), "Dogs Are From Neptune" by Jean Donaldson(IS a dog book, but with SOOO many correlations...) would also be incredibly helpful to you I reckon.


Love both these authors, and I recommend them all the time.


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## Acadianartist

thecolorcoal said:


> It turned out 100% ok. I am very happy with her. I feel we are going in the right direction. I might have to accept the fact that this is just how this horse is, warts and all.
> 
> Robin did say if I had more core and lower body strength the fear of falling and getting bucked off wouldn’t be so great because I would have more strength to sit and stay on, so seems trips to the gym are in order.
> 
> I have been listening and absorbing everyone’s help!


So glad you had a good ride! Build on this now. Focus on the positive instead of the "what ifs" (I know, easier said than done). For core strength, things like yoga and pilates are great. You can even do them at home - there are tons of videos on YouTube. I like yoga with Adriene. She has many core exercises, and you'll find them some pretty strenuous. 

Finally, I think you're on the right track in deciding to work with the horse you have instead of imagining some idea of a perfect horse that's not real. It's like when I had my kids and brought them to the ocean as toddlers. Watch a commercial of a family at the beach, and you see a gorgeous mom with a perfect body relaxing under her wide-brimmed hat, children happily playing along the water, the serenity of a perfect family. Instead, I had a baby on the autism spectrum, I was exhausted all the time, and bringing them to the ocean just meant having to watch them like a hawk so they didn't go too deep in the water, didn't eat sand, didn't get in the path of boats landing on the shore, didn't wander off, didn't get sun-burned, didn't get stung by jellyfish. Motherhood wasn't anything like what I saw on tv -- at the beach or elsewhere. But you know what? We still had fun times, we overcame a lot of challenges, and I adore my kids who are now very smart, successful teenagers. Maybe riding is like that. Less about quiet trail rides in the sunset, and more like hard work with the occasional quiet moment, but full of rewards. 

Also, do spend a lot of time with your mare on the ground. Maybe you already do, and I missed it because this thread is so long, but the more you do things with her on the ground (liberty training, ground work, but I am not a fan of CA or Parelli), the more you will get to know each other and the more you will be able to read her body language so you communicate better.


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## Foxhunter

[quote=thecolorcoal;1970583125]I get What you are saying and that takes a very high level
Of horsemanship to get to of which at the moment I don’t have BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN I NEVER WILL.

i dont beat horses either but I grew up around trainers who did, and trainers who were very open about it and expected us all to follow suit.[/quote]

I have never said you cannot attain the ability to either ride or gain confidence and experience. As I have said many times _I enjoy a challenge! _

In my youth it was common to use a whip on a horse for behaving badly when ridden. Sometimes it was needed, sometimes it made matters worse. 

What I did learn mainly from my mother was, "There are more ways than one to skin a cat.” If a hard boot or a hit with the whip (when riding) didn't work, try something else. 

I learned that horses *DO* talk to us humans, we have to learn their language. 

I learned that language and most importantly how to _listen_ to what they had to say. 

I learned the difference between I will not, I don't understand and why should I? 

I learned how to deal with matters, getting the timing correct. 

I learned that when things went wrong, to look for my faults. 

I was also born with an instinct for understanding animals and the ability to get on their level. 

Have I made mistakes? You bet your bottom dollar I have, many of them. 

Have I had horses that I couldn't ride? Of course, there are some I could never gel with no matter how hard I tried. 

Life is a continuous learning curve, make the most of it, keep an open mind and enjoy it.


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## SueC

@Foxhunter, I think your last post would look great framed, with perhaps a bit of decorative border work or some arty cross-stitch or whatever takes the fancy, and in pride of place on a wall somewhere, preferably in the tack shed!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Patti & I have been together since she was a weaner. She's never been an easy horse to work with. She's smart, she learns quickly and then she says, "Yeah, no." and will get very emotional about being told, "Yeah, Yes You Will.". I don't beat her. I let her 'express' her opinion and what she thinks matters to me and she KNOWS that. She's a BIG, BIG Moving mare who can trot level barefoot, with a LOT of reach. Well, I am SO not into Saddleseat it's not funny. I really love Western Pleasure and Western Trail (show trail) and she's so far from being that kind of horse it's not even on her radar. So we're doing Western Dressage and Working Equitation. We're both happy and having fun doing it. That's fixing your goals or desires to fit your horse and the horse fixing her desires to fit with me. 

Patti has some 'quirks', 'foibles', 'idiosyncracies', if you will. And she's ALWAYS going to have them, it's who she is. When we're working in the afternoon, if it comes dinner time and she sees buckets being passed, she gets VERY upset if I want to keep on going. We have to talk about it because she'll go backward, she'll paw (that sounds like a lot less than what she does, she paws the ground HARD to let me know she wants to be done), she hates working in the outdoor all by herself and we'll have moments out there if we do. Again with the backing up, pawing, calling, going in circles and trying to pull for the barn. She gets VERY anxious if I get hard handed, she's done more for my hands than any horse I've ever ridden, she just won't stand for me to be ham handed. Now when she goes into the show ring, she may get a little anxious but she soldiers on, unless you're really good at reading horse body language you really won't know it. She just gets big and moves even bigger.

Patti really isn't a spook. Not much bothers her, besides being alone. Sudden sharp noises will get her to tuck her butt and scoot, but she'll come right back to me. She never ever crosses into the 'danger zone' with her behavior. If she had ever reared or done what I call 'dirty bucking' instead of what I call 'bunny bucks', or been a bolter, she'd be gone. She's only done the little bunny bucks a couple of times real early on in her training, Now it's mostly just get big and move bigger. 

Her ground manners are pretty good but she likes to forge ahead and needs to be reminded that while she's got a 48" inseam, mines only 28" and she's got to shorten her stride. I have to remind her every single day, some days more than twice, or she'll cheerfully haul me to the barn instead of me leading her. 

She's an 'opinionated' mare. She's got something to 'say' about everything we do. Right now, we're doing some Showmanship because we're going to the county fair at the end of the month and we'll show halter & Showmanship. It's been a little bit of a rough go because she just doesn't see the point to any of it. So a practice session goes something like this: We line up in front of the cone, I lean forward and start my feet moving at the walk. Patti stands there. I cluck and give a tug on the chain. She stands there. I drop the line and walk over and pick up a lunge whip. I lean forward and start my feet moving again, Patti walks off with me. Then I up my energy level and start moving at the trot, Patti lengthens her walk stride. I tap her with the whip and she trots, or she trots and runs out to the side. We come to the part where we stop and she stops and swings her butt out to the right. I step her up one or 2 steps and get her straight. She swings her butt out again. I back her up and pump the lead shank then step her up and get her straight again and stop again. This time she stands, but her feet are not square. I start looking at the foot I want moved and put pressure on her nose, she moves all 4 feet. She knows what I want, she just doesn't do it. So, I get her stood up again and start moving her feet one at a time again. We get mostly square. Then I ask for the pivot on the right hind. Nope, don't wanna, not gonna. I step into her to make her start to back and get her weight on the foot I want her to pivot on, then I walk into her shoulder to get her to move and pivot. We sidepass. Stop, start over, and we side pass again. Stop, start over, she crosses her hind legs and walks all over the place. Stop and start over. She finally does about 90 degrees of a 360 degree pivot. At this point, we're saying, "Good Girl" and ending with that. As soon as she starts to give me that 90 consistently, I'll start to push for 180. And we'll be stopping and starting some more. My quarter horses would be spinning a hole in the ground by now, that's just them. Patti doesn't think there's a point or purpose and she'd rather be riding. In the end, she will give me what I want because she's really a lovely mare like that. But she won't make it easy for me to get it. 

Patti is nothing if not consistent. She will consistently challenge me to make sure I REEEAAALLLY want her to do what I just said. She'll challenge more if she doesn't see the point in doing something. It's never going to be easy with this mare. But it's never dangerous and she's such a lovely mare, sweet, loving, funny (she "helps" when we're fencing) and she'll always give in, once you've explained what you want very clearly and made her understand, "Yup, that is really what I want you to do.". Once I can get her to perform each piece of the showmanship maneuvers consistently and correctly, and I put them all together and we run through a pattern real quick and she sees just how much less work it is to do what I'm asking, she'll be spot on and never give me another bit of trouble, about THAT. But there'll always be something new and she'll always challenge me to make sure. We've been together for 13 years and she's NEVER done anything without asking 100 questions. It's just who she is. 

She's not a perfect horse. She's not THE perfect horse by a long chalk, but she's THE perfect horse for ME. If I'm slow and consistent, she'll give me the moon and ask if I want some stars to go with it. If I try to force her, we won't get anywhere and she'll give me some push back. My trainer commented the other day, "You know, if this horse had gotten into the wrong hands, she'd be a real beyotch.". I suppose she's right, I just never thought about that, I just tailored my training approach to how Patti learns and I learned how to work through her "NOs" to get to her "Yes's".


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## gottatrot

Really like what @Foxhunter posted.

In @DreamCatcher Arabian's post above you can read about how a horseman reads a horse. 
It is full of appreciation for the individuality of the horse, understanding of the horse's motivations, flexibility for the horse's unique traits, and all the emotionless patience required for training. 
What I don't read are negative connotations associated with the horse's behaviors. The horse is accepted as she is, but also encouraged to become all that she can be. Because the time and effort has been taken to understand the horse, she is not seen as a problem but is valued instead. There are some great lessons here.


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## sarahfromsc

Reading all of the above killed two cups of coffee!

I believe you need more help with body control on your horse. It was the one thing a former member stressed repeatedly, and I thought she was correct since I agree.......lolololol........then that body control turns into muscle memory. So when you cue her when she becomes fractious the muscle memory will hopefully over rule her desire to do whatever the hell she wants to do.

Anyway, my thought has always been control the feet the mind will follow. With that said, when you are picking out her feet can you place the foot in your hand to a spot of your choosing on the ground without her fighting? I personally like this litttle excersize because it helps me set the horse up for the next foot I want to clean. And starts to but a nugget in his brain that I want his feet. Even to this day of my Arab that is been painful teaching me for the last 11 years, I still do this daily when picking feet. I still move his hind end his shoulders daily when grooming. I look he moves what I am looking at. He knows my intent and knows the routine.

And it works. This Arab has not done anything stupid on the trails for awhile now. Until the other day. We have wild magnolias that have leaves the size of an elephant’s ear. He decided to do the Arab tell-a-port with the 180 spin move and bolted. It was tight because I had pasture fencing on either side of the trail since I was riding through the neighborhood. I held the outside rein steady, pulses the inside rein, and nudged him my inside heel. Thank gawd for the muscle memory (and maybe he decided his trick was not going to work) because he sat back a little and pivoted. I had his feet, and his mind came back to me. We continued on as if not happened. I did not pat, praise, or baby talk about his wonderfulness.

Have you tried using ground poles and making her step of the pole on foot at a time? It is amazing how often when one front foot goes over the pole the other follows, automatically it seems. But can you whoa her up after only on foot as crossed over? Than ask for the other slowly? Then ask her to back up one foot at a time? How about three feet one at a time slowly waiting for your direction on when to move the next foot. Both forward and backward? Then four?

Does she give your her hips and shoulders at a slight touch? Or do you have to poke, poke, poke? When you don’t have to poke, but can glance at the body part you want moved, set grounds poles up in the shape of an L and back her through it...one foot at a time and ask her to give her hind end to through the L.

Once this is her muscle memory from the ground, get in the saddle and at the walk and do the same things. Move one foot at a time. Until she has it down pat.

Can you get on her, cue her to back and just let her rock back without picking and moving a hoof? Same with forward? It is having her learn to listen to you, to guide her. It takes great timing on your part, and the ability to know which foot she is going to use, or is using. Knowing which foot she is using makes a huge difference in how you would cue her. Took me way to many years to understand that. You can’t influence a horses feet well without feeling which foot the horse is using. I believe that is why some people have problems when doing lateral,y work with their horse. They may cue, but not at the correct time that can influence the feet.

Foot control, leads to body control, which leads to using excersizes to establish muscle memory. Which leads to happy, happy, happy.


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## jaydee

Sometimes we just have to accept that a certain horse is the way it is and you have to find a way to 'live' with it and if you can't live with it then you have to give up.
For some reason there are horses that get things tattooed on their brains that will never go away, or at least not in a couple of years. It has nothing at all to do with trust and everything to do with 'everything that's done with a horse is training' - it doesn't matter if those things are good are bad or middling - they're still training. 
A horse is doing what it believes is correct because someone has trained it or allowed it to do those things then suddenly someone comes along and wants it to change all of that and immediately you have confusion on your hands.
What your horse is doing isn't just an OTTB thing - my Irish mare was used as a hunting hireling before we bought her. Weekend riders would ride 'on the buckle' and allow her to just follow the horses in front with zero control over her. Its not her fault that she firmly believed that it was the correct thing for her to do so when asked to hold back and not do it she would prance and rear and leap - only rider strength and a bit she respected stopped her from bolting off after them. Over time she's mellowed but getting hyped up when she feels she's being left behind is still her 'go too' mode.


If I was you and determined to try to work with her I'd get out as much as possible with riders who'd work with me, I'd improve on the 1 rein stop but if holding her is a real problem then I'd try a different bit as well - maybe look at a gag bit like the 3 Ring gag or a leverage bit when out on trails - it might sound like a band aid because that's what it is - we use band aids to help with the healing process and anything that prevents her from bolting off is a major step forward in breaking the habit cycle


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## bsms

I wrote a long response. Wrote & wrote, then deleted it all. I think the quote below summarizes why:



> So the hard part of horse training isn't really about the horse at all. *It is about knowing who YOU are, while learning about who the horse is, and figuring out who you need to be to bring the two together in mutual respect and trust.* To teach your horse to stop resisting and be calm, responsive, trusting and brave, *you must first acquire those qualities yourself*. You can't just appear to be confident and in control. You must let go of your masks and conflicts and fears and simply BE confident and in control. Nor can you apply rules you read in a book - even this book. You have to find the parts of yourself that will tell you at a level below conscious thought what you have to do and how you have to act..." - Chris Irwin, in the preface to "Horses Don't Lie"


Learning "rein effects" is easy. Understanding horses is not. In 7 years, I barely began to understand Mia. Building on that experience...in 3 years, I've barely begun to understand Bandit. Although they both have taught me a lot about me. People told me I needed to act confident on Mia. Didn't work, because Chris Irwin is right: "To teach your horse to stop resisting and be calm, responsive, trusting and brave, you must first acquire those qualities yourself. You can't just appear to be confident and in control."

All the stuff I typed wasn't wrong, although it probably wasn't as good as the advice you've already received. But to be successful, I suspect YOU need to change, and your horse will help you discover how. But it is a road YOU must walk. Folks on this thread have provided directions, but you must walk the road yourself. You and your horse. "..._figuring out who you need to be to bring the two together in mutual respect and trust_".

People tried to help me with Mia. Some was good advice. Like @*jaydee* , a change in bits might keep you going long enough for you and your horse to teach each other. But for the most part, it is trial and error. And error. And error. And error. And error. And...whoops! Where did that success sneak in? Back to error. I had to change before I could change her. It also involves risk of injury. And if understanding is your goal, two years is nothing! It goes back to what a professional guitar player told me once. "_I can teach you to strum a few chords in 30 minutes, but none of us will live long enough to be good.._."


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## tinyliny

@*bsms* 


I never see Chris Irwin around on YT anymore . . . . shame.


love that quote! it does get to the crux of the matter; that horses can detect, and are very much disoriented by, a schism in humanbeings behavior ,that has them acting one way in a physical sense, but projecting the exact opposite in their 'intention' (something that horses are more aware of than we , ourselves, are).


That is why the best horsemen/women are very clear that their body language exactly mirrors their real intent. The problem for the rest of us 'average' horsepeople is that until we get good at it, we sort of have to 'fake it 'til we make it'.


Some are born with an innate ability, as @*Foxhunter* says she is, some of are perpetual students, mimicking to the best of our ability, until WE can do it, too.


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## mmshiro

I just got back from a ride with Key - 7 year old TB at the beginning of his after-track training. It was trash day today, and in the distance I spot a trash can with a black mass on top. Coming closer, it's a stuffed black bear, about 3ft long, facing the road. I think, "Oh, this might be a problem..." and then shortly after, "Nope doesn't seem to bother him!", but then another two seconds later, 

- Stop
- Snort
- Back up
- Try a 180º
- "It's gonna eat us!!"

I did what I always do when that happens - nothing. At that moment, the ride stops, and this is the only place and the only moment that counts. After he stops his attempts to turn, I give him a squeeze. He makes a step forward, I relax, let him do whatever it is he needs to do to figure this out - look, hear, smell, whatever. Only turning around is not an option. So we do this for half a minute, and finally he tippy-toes past the offending trail monster. Again, I do nothing - he gets to pick the speed with no input from me...as long as it's reasonable. He wants to trot past instead of walking, that's fine. I basically act like, "I'm still unsure what you are worried about, but whatever..." After about ten paces, Key starts to try to decide whether to keep on trotting or walking...and walks. 

Every horse is different, but I've have had consistently good rides with three OTTBs, two age 7 with minimal or no after-track training, one a bit more of a veteran but with a penchant for trying to intimidate riders. (When I rode her for the first time, BO said, "See if you can get her to the end of the driveway!") The thing is, I don't micromanage, I'm not trying to be "the boss." Out there, potentially at the beginning of a Walk of Shame, you have to be a team, you have to work together, you have to come to an agreement that works for all sides. Overloading a prey animal's brain with micromanaging and bossing around when he's trying to do his part to keep us safe is not conducive to that. 

I've ridden that boy for about 8 weeks now; nobody else is riding him. Once recently, when I picked up Hamlet from their pasture for a ride, he followed us right to the pasture gate, where I had to tell him that it's not his turn today. There's gotta be something I'm doing right, and from what I've read in all the threads with "problem horses", it's that the horses time with me is as peaceful as I can manage to make it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Guess what? Today Patti stopped square, stood quietly and *gasp* gave me a very nice 180 degree pivot on her right hind. It was a very good session. Now tomorrow? Well, we'll see which horse I have tomorrow.


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## dwhranch

Hi, Have you tried the cruising excersize by Clinton Anderson. It is a wonderful control excersize and after 10 days you will have a new horse under you. It sure wired for me. Good luck you can do this.


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## katatak

I wish there was something stronger that a "like" button for this reply!


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## bsms

@mmshiro, the worst advice I got with spooky horses was to push them past it. I came to the following conclusion shortly after swapping Mia for Bandit, after watching how tense Bandit was just being led slowly around the neighborhood:

It your horse cannot go past on slack reins, your horse isn't TRULY convinced it is safe!​ 
A short time later, when riding Bandit, he'd go forward pretending to be calm until he just couldn't do it any longer. Then he'd spin 180. But before he could leap away, I'd pull hard in the direction of turn and he'd finish a 360 degree turn before he really realized it. If he tried it again, I'd keep him turning for a full 360 degrees.

Rule 1: We do NOT turn 180 degrees and run, because every 180 degree turn becomes a 360 degree turn, and where can you run when you are facing the threat?

Rule 2: If we are too close for YOUR comfort, I'll ASK you to turn 90-180 degrees, and we will WALK away. WALK. If you try to run away, I will use a Pulley Rein Stop. Or a curb bit. Or I will make your life SUCK until you stop running! But if you WALK away...well, I asked you to so we will walk away together! 

Rule 3: When we have enough separation that you are no longer consumed with tension, I'll do whatever it takes to convince you of your safety. If that means waiting 5 minutes before going forward, we'll wait. If you need me to dismount and take 15 minutes to lead you on a slack rein past, we'll take 15 minutes. (In practice, I don't think it ever took much over 5 minutes.)

Bottom Line: *We will not spin. We will not race away. But we WILL take as much time needed.*

And if it looks like it is a "bridge too far" for today, we will observe, think, and then stroll away. Tomorrow is another day.

For the first month, I found myself more and more walking away, dismounting and taking forever to get anywhere. After a month, the times we couldn't go forward became less and less. As my wife put it one day when a neighbor's yard was being sprayed with insecticide (POISON!), "_What do you have to prove? There is ALWAYS an alternative_." Strictly speaking, that isn't always true. But it is much truer than it is if I don't LOOK for an alternative!

Three years later, Bandit is not a "Point and Go" horse. I doubt he ever will be. That would really bother a lot of people. It doesn't bother me. He may swerve and scoot when something startles him, but then he stops and LISTENS. He WANTS me to make a decision because he believes I will make a good one.

*After 7 years with Mia, I still let my ego get in the way of training my horse.* I still do, sometimes. That is part of why I needed to change before I could give Mia what she needed - and I hadn't changed enough before she left in May 2015! In 7 years of riding, I learned a lot. But I hadn't learned to put her first. She was fundamentally a very willing, very trusting horse. But deep down, I think she knew I wasn't putting HER needs ahead of MY wants. Bandit is not nearly as willing nor nearly as trusting - by nature - but once I put his needs ahead of my wants, he started to learn trust.

If I was presented with the 2008 version of Mia, I'd do 100 things differently. But I'd do them differently because of what Mia taught me, and because of what Bandit has taught me. And what they have taught me is as much about ME as it is about HORSES. Sounds kind of foo-foo, but it is true.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Horses reflect back both our good and our bad. The best we can do is to make sure we like looking at the reflection more often than we don't.


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## tinyliny

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Horses reflect back both our good and our bad. The best we can do is to make sure we like looking at the reflection more often than we don't.





very well said. 

I often don't like what they show me. But, I needed to see it. So, that's how it goes. either ignore it, decry it and stay the same, or learn from it. best one can. Nobody's perfect, but we can just keep chipping away at our issues. 



Really, most of us are doing the best we can. Even if it doesn't look that way.


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## Celeste

This thread has taken a little while to read. I guess I'll put my two cents in because I certainly have been where you (original poster) are. I have been riding on a regular basis for over 50 years. I have been bucked off, kicked, bitten, drooled on, had the saddle turn over with me, ridden out bolts, fallen off due to bolts, and I still like horses. Please do not mention that to any psychiatrist or they will try to lock me up in the loonie bin.

My horse that I am riding now is just starting to come together to "gel" as a great partner. I have ridden her WAY more than 2 years. One thing that helped her is that I rode often with an old, dead broke horse. Quiet, calm, no rush, just take it easy. She would spook occasionally, but the old horse calmed her down. Rushing to catch up was not an issue because there was no way to fall behind.

This year she has been on a new road of riding with a horse that actually will go. She is very competitive and was bucking into canters if the other horse was in front. I ask DH to please warn me when he is going to change gears. I also ask my horse to keep up so we don't get into these lag phase panic attacks.

She does much better out alone.

I rode a horse that I free leased from my sister somewhere around 30 years ago. I rode that horse 2 hours a day for two years. There were very few days missed. This was a very large horse; over 16 hands. Too far from the ground to want to fall off of. On the good side, she would go anywhere and through anything. But EVERY single day she found something to spook at. Her version of spooking was to jump 6 feet to the side, do a 180 turn, and run. 

My sister decided that she wanted another horse and offered to sell me the horse. I thought it through and decided that I just didn't want to keep trying with this horse. I helped her find a nice horse to trade for. The person getting the horse was well aware of her quirks and had ridden her many miles. 

Here is where her life went from there.

She threw new rider off and was sold.

The next owner loved her. She rode her daily for years. I tried to buy her back because I was concerned and had regret over letting her go. The new owner said that she loved the horse and would never sell her for any amount of money.

Rumor holds that they were both injured in a ride in the mountains due to a spook.

I believe that that mare had a vision problem or a brain problem. 

Not all horses can be made "unspookable".

*I suspect that your horse can turn into a great trail mount.* It seems that she is just trying to keep up and is bucking because she is resisting pressure from the bit. If you are going to ride with friends, I would be sure that they know that you are still working with a "problem child" and that they need to stay in a group and not go off and leave you.


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## ValerieR

Working with horses is one of the most trying, rewarding, challenging and gratifying things you will ever do. THAT SAID:
I encourage you to take a look at what you said. "that this is her forever home! So she needs to trust me and understand I am not going to put us in a bad position!" Would you ever scream at a person in an effort to get that person to trust you? Of course not. That's absurd. Now think about what a horse is. He's a prey animal, and in your case I presume this horse is a prey animal who hasn't been treated with the most respect by humans. She might have a little baggage. If a child was frightened, you wouldn't scream at him for running from what frightened him right? Extend your horse the same courtesy. Mr. Buck Brannaman has plenty to say on the subject:

-"Working with horses is a little like being married. Sometimes you have to adjust and change your plan."

-"“Master your hands and your legs to create a rectangle of support around and for the horse. He will learn you can be a resource for his safety. Sometimes a horse APPEARS to spook or act-up or doesn’t listen. A horse looks for a way out of trouble. He has all these open doors; front, sides, but you have the ability to close these doors with your hands and legs. The horse not only respects that, but craves it.”

-"Never in history has a troubled horse been fixed by pulling on two reins."

-"You didn' do nothin but scare him! See him flinch? Think! What's the first thing he ever felt in his life? He felt his mama's tongue lickin' 'em off. She didn;t take her tongue and go bangin' on 'em like you just did!" (That's Ray Hunt) 

*-“One of the biggest challenges of a horsemen is to be able to control your emotions.”*

The point is, you have to meet the horse where she's at. If that's scared, you're going to have to adjust to fit her. If you expect the horse to change to fit the mold you want simply because you want it, you're making war. Be fair to her and do your job. Give her confidence, guide her, and don't be a victim. And love her.

Happy trails


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## SueC

thecolorcoal said:


> I have ridden other horses on the trails and I never once felt out of control. But then again I had no history with those horses. I feel it's different when you have seen what a horse is capable of, especially one you really care about. You never really forget it. You know it's now a potential possibility where as before it might never have even been a thought.
> 
> I have PTSD. I'm more than willing to admit that. I think my treatment for the PTSD though is to have enough good experiences and to know I have the tools to keep myself safe. That always has seemed to be what helps.


Is your PTSD related to a horse accident, or to something else?

If it's a horse accident, was it with this horse?

If "yes" to either or both of the above: PTSD trigger situations are generally not as amenable to desensitisation by exposure approaches, than "ordinary" fears are. Ordinary fears can also often be allayed by things like cognitive behaviour therapy, while PTSD trigger situations are more like madly bolting horses - you can't reason with them, and you have to be quite creative to get a handle on managing them - and it will be different for different "horses".

If the PTSD is not related to horses, I would think it shouldn't come into it when riding - but if it's not and that's still the case, does riding present some kind of similar "data point" to the cause of the PTSD somehow, to trigger it?

My PTSD is completely unrelated to horses - it's a variant called cPTSD, from growing up in a home with extreme physical and emotional violence from before I was born (and well concealed for the most part from the outside world behind a facade of middle class success, so no direct help for me about it as a kid), and so no trustworthy, safe, loving parent to bond to - and has always been very much helped by horses, whose world is a sane sort of world, and who are on the whole so much nicer than people are on average, and who were actually interested in keeping me safe, if I extended them the same courtesy. A bolting horse was scary when I was a kid, but no scarier than a PTSD trigger situation. I've learnt to deal with both, but bolting horses are definitely easier! :rofl:

There are people on HF who have PTSD related to horse-riding accidents, and who have gotten back on horses anyway, and are working on their long roads back, sort of like learning to walk again after breaking your legs. Their input would be really helpful to anyone in the same boat.


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## SueC

Kalraii said:


> I really hate mushrooms. Nothing anyone does is gonna change that


:rofl:

I _used_ to think that about eggplant, and avocado. Never ever ever! But now I love'em! Tastes can change through your life... even things you really hate may miraculously not remain on your pet hate list for life...

However, were I to try to forcibly administer mushrooms to you via restraint and a large funnel, this would only reinforce your negative feelings about mushrooms, rather than increase your chances of discovering this culinary delight down the track.

A lesson in that for horse training too!


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## SueC

Whaddaya know, I randomly missed a page! Re riding-related PTSD, I thought this post was excellent:

https://www.horseforum.com/trail-riding/frustrated-my-mare-after-2-year-793093/page6/#post1970582125

A friend of mine swears by EMDR, @Dreamcatcher Arabians, and she'd tried loads of other things. It does sound very interesting.

Well, hasn't this been an interesting, productive, informative, entertaining, tearing-out-hair, passionate, articulate thread! Thank you everyone for typing away at this topic, great reading. :smileynotebook: 

I shall now relate some safety equipment to buffer falling off, from another thread:










This thread is about the Physics of falling off, and how to soften that fall. The OP may find it helpful, both in practical terms and because humour is generally a great antidote for fear.

https://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/falling-off-nerds-789799/

...it's got many people relating their hair-raising spills in a very entertaining and educational manner!

:falloff::rofl:


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## Fresh-Mish

Hi I don't have any advice for you, but just wanted to empathise. We also have a young mare that is giving us frustration. Ours is a 5 year old though - and we are only part-leasing but visiting her 3-4 times a week if weather good (its winter here, so not good). Our horses problems are due to her breed being very slow to mature - we are told to expect 8-10 years until she is matured and until til then to not expect so much from her. She is 50% Fresian (other 50% is SB). What breed is your mare? Could this be part of it?


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## apachetears6

How old is this Mare?
Trust takes a long time or a short time, it takes time.
I have had horses that trusted me from the start (Bud) and the current mare Rye I have it took years, In the pasture, on the bridal path on our property she did fine only while on the road where we ride did she act out.
She was eight years old when I got her, had never been outside a Stable stall and an arena for riding, knew nothing about the outside world.
I had to sack her out with everything. Once she spooked, bolted and turn into a rodeo bucking bronco which ended up fracturing three of my ribs and damaging the saddle. All over a Crotch rocket that blew through a stop sign at high revs. Cows, Chickens, ATV's, bicycles, plastic Walmart bags all spooked her.
That was fourteen years ago, now she is safe to ride but I must always pay attention, her last two spooks were a Pizza box and while riding by a swamp a Frog plopping in the water.
BUT, she is now under control, trusts my judgment and calms down fast.
I don't even know when this occurred! It just seemed that she was suddenly trusting of my lead.
It takes time, don't give up and one day on one ride suddenly everything will go as planned that day will make your smile.
Some Horses are like Fast Sports cars you have to really pay attention, don't get lost in conversation or sight seeing and take your attention off the horse.
As for Bud, he is Child safe, bomb proof the only things that spook him is Lightning, Horse wormer's, Vaccines and seeing me walk out with tack to ride! .


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## apachetears6

Thank You for the instruction video!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

SueC said:


> A friend of mine swears by EMDR, @Dreamcatcher Arabians, and she'd tried loads of other things. It does sound very interesting.


I have no real idea of how or why it works, just that it does and very quickly. Traditional cognitive counseling for these traumas would probably take upwards of 2 years and if I went that much longer without riding, I probably would never get on a horse again. It doesn't totally stop a trigger from sending you into high anxiety, but a lot like desensitizing a horse, it teaches you how to calm yourself and proceed in such a way that it doesn't become just another bad riding incident. I was very skeptical about it in the beginning, but you can't fake that you're not anxious. Anxiety always shows up in some form or another, I found very quickly, like 10 sessions, that my anxiety about getting on a horse was pretty much gone. In just a couple of sessions, I was able to mount up and sit on a bombproof school pony, and a couple more and I was taking leadline lessons on the schoolie, a couple more and I walked on my own. Way before I even thought I could do it, I was up on Patti and starting to do lead line on her and walking without help. Now we're starting to try to get ready to do our first dressage test, sure it's intro level, test 1, but considering I couldn't even get on her 6 months ago, I think we're making pretty good progress. I really knew that the EMDR had worked when she tucked and scooted on me the other day. She did that once when I was still on lead line with her, another horse in the ring spooked over something and she reacted, and I had to get off and was a shaking, crying mess. It took me an hour to get back on. When she did it the other day, my heart rate didn't even go up. My trainer had the, "O NO here it goes!" look on her face expecting me to lose it. It never happened, so it works.


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## rambo99

tinyliny said:


> very well said.
> 
> I often don't like what they show me. But, I needed to see it. So, that's how it goes. either ignore it, decry it and stay the same, or learn from it. best one can. Nobody's perfect, but we can just keep chipping away at our issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Really, most of us are doing the best we can. Even if it doesn't look that way.


 @tinyliny love reading your post you have great advice for OP or for anyone reading on here. Love you're avatar picture. OP you have been given great advice, some horse's just take longer.

Took my horse 3 years to get reliable out on trails not spooking at stuff. Bolting bucking and being silly. He still can buck but the one rein stop shuts him down. I got that one rein stop real good in a controlled area, before going on trails. 

I've also learned staying calm not getting all tense really helps. I tend to get scared /tense when I feel my horse getting tense or jiggy, because those things lead to bucking. Knowing I can shut him down really helps and remembering to breath.


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## Braxton

thecolorcoal said:


> ... that this is her forever home! So she needs to trust me and understand I am not going to put us in a bad position!
> 
> My friend and I went on the same loop we always do. It went really well, UNTIL we passed the terrifying junk pile we had just passed ALONE and didn’t even look at. As soon as we are a herd of 4, (2 horses 2 riders) it becomes all about saving the day. Tyra did her stupid bull poop move of bucking and taking off. “Taking off” ie slow canter with really no stop. The horse in front of us is a trained western pleasure Horse and jogs slower than a snail can crawl.
> 
> She was only 5 feet in front of us, but Tyra felt we were moving too slow and had to keep up. We could WALK faster than this horse.
> 
> And the trials were doing so well... good news is I stayed on and I ended up stopping her by turning her INTO the scary junk pile. But I had to stop and stand there for a minute because I was SO. FRUSTRATED! I spent hundreds on training to cure this horse of this bad habit, and here we go again!
> 
> I know my emotional state has a lot to do with it but I was CALM and then she just jumps out from underneath me when I was POSITIVE this was not a classic “baby in the back being left behind” thoroughbred racehorse scenario..
> 
> Anyone have any advice? I freeze up and forget all about my one rein stop. This was a narrow road trail with nowhere for us to go but straight. It wasn’t “scary” looking back it was just like “YOURE KIDDING ME RIGHT NOW! Again?!”



I feel like I am reading a post that I would have written about my half arabian mare. I love this horse. Kind eye. A++ mover. Excellent blodlines. Sweepstakes nominated. She has "it"... that little extra movement that makes a horse showy. Should have been an easy horse to breakout and show. Picked her up as a 3 year old. Did all of the same groundwork I did with all of my other show horses I trained and showed. Lots and lots of groundwork and desensitizing. Took her to shows and showed her in shomanship and halter. Here I am 6 years later.. scratching my head, thinking what did I do wrong? What can I do now?



I too will never sell her, for fear her nice demeaner will trick someone and she will do her antics and kill someone. She has the strongest flight instinct I have ever dealt with. We will be riding along and she blows up! It is like when the person is no longer on the ground reassuring her and disappears on her back, she tolerates it for a while, and then says no more. 

I too have sent her to trainers, watched them ride her, ridden her with them. Then I take her home and eventually she pulls the same rear and spin throw me on the ground move. It's embarassing to say. I have been riding and training for my whole life. I rode other people's horses that scared them. I have ridden so many horses and trained many successfully for showing, but I have never had one like her that I could not get a grip on. 



She has excellent ground manners. She lunges, long lines, knows showmanship, great for farrier, and excellent in the crossties. Very sweet little horse on the ground.



Reading through these posts these thoughts jumped out at me.. Yes, I may not be the right personality for her. Yes, she likes to go go go. Yes, she has a good stop, but doesn't like to do it. Yes, she gets extremely anxious in the saddle and won't calm down. Yes, the one rein stop makes her more nervous. 



I feel your pain. I feel your frustration. I know the feeling of wanting so badly for a horse to work together with you as one. 



I have started my mare over many times with the same bad end results. I too was searching for a new training method and new thought process. Something has to work, so as of 2 weeks ago I took her away from the heard. My thought process is to establish a new herd. The only interaction she has is with me. I give her water, I feed her, I work her everyday. Where she is located, she can't even see other horses. It's just her and I. I have started her training from the begning again. More groundwork and under saddle only walk and stand for the first few days. I have trotted a little under saddle but mostly walk and stand. I have also decided to remove anything that may be adding to the stimulation and frustration, so I have removed the bit from the training. Right now I ride her in a halter and western saddle. Thus far my new method seems to be working, but it is early and I have no way of predicting if she will revert. I hope this gives you a little help on thinking outside of the box. I wish you the best of luck and stay safe on your journey with your horse. I understand the frustration you're going through and that feeling of not wanting to give up on a horse just because you don't understand what makes her tick.


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## SueC

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I have no real idea of how or why it works, just that it does and very quickly...Now we're starting to try to get ready to do our first dressage test, sure it's intro level, test 1, but considering I couldn't even get on her 6 months ago, I think we're making pretty good progress. I really knew that the EMDR had worked when she tucked and scooted on me the other day. She did that once when I was still on lead line with her, another horse in the ring spooked over something and she reacted, and I had to get off and was a shaking, crying mess. It took me an hour to get back on. When she did it the other day, my heart rate didn't even go up. My trainer had the, "O NO here it goes!" look on her face expecting me to lose it. It never happened, so it works.


I'm so glad it did!  Life and curveballs. I wish you and Patti all the best, and stacks of fun, for your preparation and dressage test! :riding:

I heard a great saying recently: _Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it is about learning to dance in the rain._


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

SueC said:


> I'm so glad it did!  Life and curveballs. I wish you and Patti all the best, and stacks of fun, for your preparation and dressage test! :riding:
> 
> I heard a great saying recently: _Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it is about learning to dance in the rain._


Thanks! And for the saying, exactly! I actually love to dance (and sing) in the rain.


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## SueC

I know how you feel, @*Dreamcatcher Arabians* ! :rofl: Here in South-Western Australia, we have a Mediterranean climate, which means a long hot dry summer, and a cool wet winter. Waiting for the season to break after the summer drought, you're just dying for it to _finally_ rain again. In the Perth area, where I went to school, break of season is usually in May, and very spectacular - when the first front rolls in, it's like someone has turned a giant shower head on maximum output. And coming from a farming background, I remember when that finally happened in May 1986, and I just stepped out into it and let it pummel me while the other kids were remaining sensibly under the verandahs. They were going, "Why did you do that? You didn't have an umbrella or anything!" and I explained that was the point, that I'd been waiting since mid-summer for this rain and I was going to enjoy it!  I also used to go out of doors in the break of season thunderstorms at nighttime, when the whole sky would be a fabulous fireworks! You could feel the electricity in the air too. Nature is extraordinary. I know _you_ will understand. 

A little music for you in this link:

https://www.horseforum.com/member-j...ys-other-people-479466/page73/#post1970583221

...for those who like rain and magnificence!


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## Miss_Aizea

You keep referring to your horse as anxious, one thing to remember with mares, especially older ones, is that they will challenge you for leadership. Make sure she's not just pushing you around to have her own way. Otherwise, your approach could just be encouraging the behaviour. Once I set my mare straight she became mellow and in my pocket, but it wasn't very pretty either.


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## thecolorcoal

I am happy to report the issues raised in this post are largely gone. I've gotten a lot of my confidence back. Working in dressage has helped me see that I DO have a good seat, I CAN sit some of the crazy, and I CAN influence my horse. Our relationship is much, much better now. She is extremely happy at this new barn. 



I think now that it is just her and me again we have become best friends once more. The trail riding is still up in the air, but after our show next weekend I am planning our first big adventure. I am feeling confident in my ability to go with her, wherever she goes, and that she's got my back as much as I've got hers. 



I'm thrilled with her - she's the best girl ever <3


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