# Bit Information (Curb and Western type bits and hackamores)



## smrobs

*Western bit information.*​


*Curb and leverage bits and hackamores.*​

For more information on snaffle bits and English type bits, see this thread: Bit Information (Snaffle and English-Type Bits)


Western trained horses are generally started in either a simple snaffle (loose ring, D-ring, full cheek, etc) or a bosal type hackamore. It isn’t until later in their training that bits with shanks and leverage are introduced. It is never a good idea to start a young horse in a bit with any type of leverage not only because of the amplified power they offer, but because they can be incredibly confusing and overwhelming to a young horse. Not only do they act on the mouth of the horse, but they also put pressure on the poll and chin which can encourage breaking at the poll and a more vertical headset in the prepared horse but can cause head tossing and evading in the unprepared horse.

Any bit with shanks that uses leverage on the horse is a fairly advanced piece of equipment and should never be used on a green horse until they have at least the basics of neck reining, leg cues, and are solid with stopping and turning at all gaits. Upping the power with a curb bit *will not* correct any training gaps; actually, it will likely make them worse.

Also, let me dispel the rumor right now about the American Tom Thumb bit. THIS IS *NOT* A SNAFFLE BIT AND IS *NOT* APPROPRIATE FOR STARTING A GREEN HORSE IN.











*The basics of leverage and the pressure ratio:*
A true snaffle bit has a 1:1 pressure ratio, meaning that for each ounce of pressure you exert on the reins, the horse feels one ounce in his mouth. A true snaffle bit does not have shanks of any length. Shanks and a curb strap changes that ratio to create more pressure in the mouth with less on the reins. The ratio of a normal curb bit can be determined by measuring the length of the shank and the length of the purchase. Not to get all mathematical on you but if you measure the length of the shank and get, let’s say, 4; then measure the purchase and get 1, then that particular bit has a pressure ratio of 1:4, meaning that for every 1 ounce you exert on the reins, the horse feels 4 ounces in his mouth.










A change in the ratio of purchase to shank also varies how the bit works and where it puts the most pressure. A bit with a short purchase and a long shank will put the majority of the pressure on the horse’s bars with only a little bit on the poll. A bit with a longer purchase to a shorter shank will put more pressure on the poll and less on the bars. Bits with long purchases are generally called "lifter" bits as they encourage a horse to break at the poll, round their neck, and lift their shoulders.




*Shanks: Length*


Short shanks: On a curb bit, the shorter the shanks are, generally speaking, the milder the bit will be. Shorter shanks means that the rein cue is magnified less than with long shanks but more than with a snaffle bit. If you are just stepping up into the curb bit world from a snaffle, a short shanked bit with a nice amount of sweep (will be discussed in a minute) is the best option to start with.











Long Shanks:Generally speaking, the longer the shanks on a curb bit, the more severe it is because it takes less rein pressure to put a large amount of pressure on the mouth. These bits are for the more advanced horse/rider pair. They are most commonly seen in the Western Pleasure and Reining arenas because they require a much smaller motion than a bit with short shanks to relay the same cue.











*Shanks: Angle*
The angle of the shank can be determined by looking at the bit from the side, or in the case of a swivel shanked bit, with the shank turned out flat. If you draw a line from the middle of the bridle ring, straight down through the middle of the mouthpiece, and continue it straight down level with the end of the shank, that will show you how straight your shanks are. The farther away your rein rings are from the line, the more swept back your shanks are. The actual shape of the shanks has no bearing on this either. There are simple shanks like the one pictured below/left and then there are others like the cavalry shanks that are very curvy and ornate like the one pictured below/right. The only thing that changes the angle of the sweep is the distance of the rein rings from the purchase line.


















Straight Shanks: The straighter the shanks on a bit, the less warning the horse gets before the action of the bit is engaged because it takes less rein movement to move the shanks. This, in turn, usually makes for a slightly harsher bit because there is no build to full pressure, it just happens almost instantly.











Swept back shank: On a bit with a more swept back shank, there is more warning to the horse before the action of the bit is engaged because you have to pick up more rein to contact the bit. On a well trained horse, they will feel the weight of the reins being moved and respond before the bit ever has a chance to move in the mouth. These are also commonly called a “grazing bit” because the swept back shanks allow the horse to graze while still wearing the bit.










Swivel Shanks: Swivel shanked bits are bits that have a joint where the mouthpiece meets the cheek that allows the entire cheek piece to swivel independently from the rest of the bit. Bits like this often will allow a more sensitive feel for both horse and rider due to the mobility of the shanks. Bits like this also allow for a one rein stop in case of emergency.










Solid shank bits: Bits with a solid or immobile shank are one of the most common types of western bits sold. They are a relatively simple bit that is designed for the horse that neck reins well. They do not allow for one rein correction because the solid shanks will change the position of the entire bit on the horse’s head if one rein is used. There is not quite as much feel in a solid shank as there is in a loose shank.


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## smrobs

*Mouths.....*

*Mouthpieces:*


Broken: Nearly all western bits come in a variety of combinations between the different shanks and mouth pieces.


Single jointed: A single jointed mouthpiece is most commonly seen on your average snaffle bit. However, shanked bits with this type of mouthpiece are NOT snaffle bits. Most of the time, these are not that great a combination with shanks. They combine the amplified pressure from the shanks along with the nutcracker action of the broken mouth and can actually be very harsh. They are also very confusing and tend to collapse into the side of the horse’s face if you try to use direct rein.









Double Jointed: Double jointed bits are a little better option than a single jointed as the double joints do alleviate much of the nutcracker action. However, they still exert quite a bit of pressure on the bars and tongue. It is not an uncommon thing to see a horse gaping their mouth with this bit if too much pressure is applied to the reins. This bit still has the issue with collapsing into the side of the face with one rein cues though.









Correction bits: Correction bits are ported, 3 piece bits with joints at each side of the port. They provide tongue relief through the port but work a slight nutcracker action on the bars. They are rigid enough that they don’t collapse like the previous broken mouth bits do but they are fairly harsh and are not needed for your average rider.









Chain mouths: For some reason, I have recently noticed an influx of various chain mouth curb bits for sale. These bits are very harsh and apply pressure everywhere; bars, lips, and tongue, not to mention that the chain is fairly coarse and has the possibility of really tearing a horse’s mouth up. I would not advise the use of these bits for anyone. They are offered in either full chain, or ported chain. Either way, they also have the same collapse issue as the single and double jointed bits.























Twisted bits: In my opinion, twisted bits (of the snaffle variety) should be reserved for only the best of horsemen to use for only a very limited amount of time on a horse that is, quite literally, an outlaw. However, twisted bits and shanks should never be combined. These bits are incredibly harsh on the mouth and I cannot think of one legitimate reason for anyone to ever use one of these.

















Barreled mouths: If you feel like you need a bit with a bit of side to side mobility that you cannot get in a solid mouth bit, a barrel bit is the way to go. They allow for mobility to each side of the bit without the confusion of the non-barrel broken bits. There are 2 types of mouths that you would commonly see in this style; Billy Allen and Myler. These bits come in all shapes and sizes from a straight bar mouth to a high port to a square port. You, as a rider, need to determine which style would work best for your horse by examining his mouth conformation. Making sure that you are keeping the same amount of pressure on each rein is paramount when using one of these bits. Even a little more pressure on one rein can cause the bit to change the way it is laying in the mouth and cue the horse.


Shown below are the different types:


From left to right: straight bar, low port, high port, square port, copper barrel (Billy Allen)






































Solid mouth: Solid mouth bits are simple and to the point. They are immobile and do not change shape or position in the mouth. It is impossible to have one shank cueing the horse without the rider noticing since the mouth itself is immobile. In order to lift one side, you must cue the entire bit.


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## smrobs

Rutledge bit: I am still on the fence about this bit. I don’t have any personal experience with handling one so everything I write on it will be hearsay. All the information that I have read indicates that this is a fairly mild bit so long as it is adjusted properly. The curb strap is supposed to be kept fairly tight so that the flat part of the mouth lays flat on the bars of the horse. This bit was supposedly created for horses that have had damage done to their mouths that render normal bits ineffective. Due to its width, it applies pressure to nerves that have not been previously touched and thus lets the horse feel the pressure. However, I can imagine that improperly fitted, it would be incredibly harsh if the bit was allowed to turn upwards in the mouth. It would contact both the upper bars and lower bars on a very narrow surface.













*Ports:*
There are a variety of different ports available. You must determine which port best suits your horse’s mouth conformation and your discipline.

Mullen mouth: This style is usually used for colts and young horses just moving up from a snaffle. It is supposed to apply equal pressure to the bars and tongue and is a pretty mild bit choice.










Low port: Provides a little bit of tongue relief and applies more pressure to the bars of the mouth.











Medium Port: Gives even more tongue relief and applies the majority of the pressure to the bars of the mouth.










High port: Provides the maximum tongue relief and works on the bars of the mouth. Often will also apply some pressure to the palate of the horse (roof of the mouth). Designed for more advanced horses and riders since there is the added pressure point of the palate.










Sweetwater port: Nice mild option that gives the tongue a lot of clearance. Works mostly on the outside of the bars, but depending on the thickness of the tongue, can also give a bit of tongue pressure as well. This type of bit also allows the horse to move their tongue side to side that other ported bits don’t.










Roller port: This bit gives some tongue pressure but works mostly on the bars of the mouth. The roller is usually copper to keep the mouth moist and to give the busy mouthed horse something to fiddle with.










Spoon port: Generally designed to lay flatter between the tongue and palate. Used for more refined cueing as there is more surface area in contact with the horse’s mouth.










Hooded port: Not entirely sure the exact purpose of this bit. Commonly seen with a roller underneath the hood. I would guess it is for the busy and dry mouthed horse as the hood is usually made of copper as well, though it may be nothing more than decoration. If anyone has more experience with this one, please chime in.










Frog port: Very advanced bit most commonly seen in the Vaquero style horsemanship. Frog port applies more tongue pressure while the copper roller keeps the mouth moist. Not for your average rider.










Cathedral port: Should be used by experienced riders only. This bit applies pressure to the bars, poll, chin, tongue, and palate of the horse. Most often seen in disciplines where invisible cues are desired such as Western Pleasure.










Spade bit: Last but certainly not least, this is one of the most misunderstood and controversial bits out there. This bit is part of the traditional Vaquero training scale and is to be used by only the most advanced and knowledgeable horsemen on properly trained horses. This bit looks incredibly harsh and has the potential to be incredibly cruel in uneducated hands but on a truly well trained bridle horse, the cues with this bit are as simple as a twitch of a muscle in one finger as most of their training is off of seat and legs.


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## smrobs

*Bitless*

*Bitless:*
There are also many bitless options out there in the western world. Some of them are great options and others are certainly cringe worthy.

Bosal:The rawhide bosal is a traditional bitless option that was mostly introduced by the old Vaquero horsemen as a part of their training scale. There are so many options for size and rigidity that I won’t go into but if you are looking to learn how to ride with a bosal, I suggest you find someone who is well versed on the proper way to use one. With these used improperly, it is very easy to either really skin up the nose and jaw of a horse or teach them to ignore it.










Soft, working, or loping hackamore: This is a milder, softer version of the rawhide bosal that is generally made of rope. It can vary in rigidness from extremely soft and flexible to fairly firm. This is a less complicated option much like riding in a rope halter.

From left to right: soft braided rope, hard braided rope, single rope, double rope































Sidepulls:This is a great option if you are riding a green horse or breaking a horse and you want to do it bitless. It is the bitless equivalent of a snaffle bit; simple, mild, and gives clear cues. There are also many options with this that vary in intensity and softness.

From left to right; single rope, double rope, rawhide, leather































Mechanical hackamores: Generally not a very practical or effective method for riding though they vary in intensity and harshness. None of these are meant to be used when direct reining simply because of their design. It gives conflicting signals and can make some of them harsher when one rein is pulled on. Generally, the shorter the shanks and the wider the noseband, the milder the hack will be. These are examples of some milder options in the western world.


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## smrobs

*Combinations and the end....*

Mechanical hackamores Coninued .....

Then there are the slightly harsher options:

















Then, of course, there are the “this should never be put on any horse, _ever_” options:

















...


Combination gag bit/hackamore: For some reason, most of these are designed to be overly harsh and marketed more towards barrel racers than anyone else. In my opinion, if a horse cannot be controlled without inflicting pain on every single pressure point _everywhere_ on its head, then both it and the rider desperately need some re-training. Why the majority of them also have a twisted wire or chain mouth is beyond me as well.
























I think that just about covers all the mass-produced and commercially available bits and hacks. There are only a few million more options out there but it would take 15 pages to talk about them all.

And just for the record, these are my 2 favorite bits that I use on all my horses once they graduate from the snaffle bit. I have a couple of others that are similar but with minor little differences to accommodate a horse's preference and/or mouth conformation.


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## Fifty

Wow Smrobs! That's intense!


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## faye

Sam, I'm no western girl, infact I know diddley squat about western so this was very informative.

I could make a suggestion that like similar bit shapes in english riding the hooded port may be there to give toungue relief, but have it hooded so the horse cant use the stra space to get its toungue over the bit.


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## Ktibb

Great post *stands and claps*


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## ponyboy

This should be stickied.


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## Ladytrails

Excellent, smrobs! Thank you for all the work you did to present such a great post with pictures!


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## Charis

This is a fantastic thread! Thank you so much for taking the time to write it, *smrobs*. I've always wanted to be better-educated on western bits!


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## dashforcache

wow, amazing information and amazing post!thank you


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## Fowl Play

Thank you very much. My daughter's lease paint uses a snaffle almost exclusively, but for 4-H she needs to transition him to a curb of sorts. We're trying the first bit tomorrow with her instructor. Thanks so much for this information...now I have an idea of what we are dealing with.


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## brandilion

Wow! So much info! Thanks! I have been trying to figure out which bit to use for my own Foxtrotter and the new horse my daughter will be using for 4H. We've been using a Tom Thumb on my Foxtrotter because that's what I always heard was the most universal bit. She's very responsive and goes just fine in a halter and lead rope, so I thought it would be kinder to give her something a little nicer. Would you recommend a simple snaffle or the bit you use for the horses graduating from a snaffle?
Also, for the new 4H horse, we're working on learning neck reining with him and currently he's in a simple snaffle. He's pretty willful, so I want to make sure she has control, but she's only 11, so I don't want her to accidentally hurt him. When do I know he's ready to move up? Her 4H group will let her use the snaffle until it's time for shows next summer.
Oh, and the bit you like, does it have a name?


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## smrobs

Brandilion, it really depends on what you would prefer to use. I would stick with a snaffle unless both horses neck rein well. I will usually move a horse up when they are pretty consistent at neck reining and only occasionally need a bit of correction.

If you are interested in the bit that I use, this one is almost identical (the company that made mine doesn't make them anymore).
Pinchless Low Port Reining Bit - Statelinetack.com


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## iridehorses

Great job, smrobs. I agree that it should be stickied.


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## Ktibb

smrobs- may I have your permission to share this post on my blog?


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## smrobs

Sure, I am all for more people reading this and hopefully learning something they didn't know before.


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## RadHenry09

To the 4H parents: I am in the same boat..need a shank for western in 4H or we would be happy riding in the snaffles.

Where can you find the curbs with the shorter shanks? Is 6 1/2" shanks considered pretty short? 
thanks


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## smrobs

Yep, in any bit that is worth it's cost, either 6 or 6 1/2 is about as short a shanks as I have been able to find. My fave bit is in a link a couple of posts above this but I also really like the looks of this bit. I will probably end up getting one of these as well just to see how it feels.
Antique Low Port Hinged Futurity Bit - Statelinetack.com


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## RadHenry09

Great, I am actually going to be ordering from State Line very soon as I need to get some holiday gifts....I think I will be adding a bit to that order.


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## MIEventer

Great job smrobs!!!


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## xXEventerXx

I just started using a hackamore on my Tb and i love it, before when we were in the jumping ring he would pull me around,take off , rush jumps now i have alot more control and he seems to like it alot better.
He had a mouth injury im sure in the past because he was always mouth shy and we tried different bits and none seemed to please him.


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## JennKzoo

Oh My Gosh, this was the easiest to read explanation of bits I've ever read (ok so I haven't read a lot, but mostly got to confused to continue reading). I applaud and thank you for making this thread.
Now for a question, I am using a copper barrel (Billy Allen) bit almost identical to the one you posted on my new Morgan gelding. He has not been ridden much in the past year but is very quick to re-learning. Anyway, When I first got him they had a chin strap on him (all leather) that was awfully tight, he was do a small rear and throw his head straight up when I would pull back or tried to back him. We loosened it one hole and seems to help, however, backing he just refuses to do. He still is tossing his head if I use to much pressure on him. I was thinking of switching bits (also going to have teeth done at the begining of the year as I'm not sure when they've been done). Any suggestions? 
Thanks again, this was awesome.


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## xXEventerXx

yea you dont want the chin strap to tight, you should be able to fit 1 or 2 fingers in the space.
what are you doing for riding??
when i rode a western mare i just used a curb bit with a chin strap
and when i got her to back up i would have my reins loose then slowly squeeze her and pull back on the reins gently. she tossed her head a little at first but then she got it and put her head down and backed up.


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## JennKzoo

Yeah, that is what we said about the curb strap too. The BO wanted to put it back where he had it and I said no leave it he was throwing his head back and acting crazy, the BO said oh I just hit him in the head with the reins UGH. Love my new BO's they are so nice but he's pretty cowboyish.
Mostly just doing trails, its gotten so cold here, no arena just the pasture to ride in and deer hunting so not doing a lot of riding right now. Going to look at another boarding facility tomorrow, but she said her arena gets so icy in the winter so I might wait till spring.


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## xXEventerXx

yea im all about communication with horses, if a horse bucks,rears,bites. ect theres always a reason and doing something else( hitting him on the head) is just going to **** him off . what i would suggest before you hop back on your horse is doing some ground work with the bit in his mouth. use a small crop or just your hands pull back on the reins gently and push his chest so he learns that if you pull back after a halt you want him to back up. If he continues to throw his head back i would get his teeth looked at,, possibly have wolf teeth under the gums bothering him.


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## smrobs

Jenn, do you know if he has been ridden in a curb type for a long time or is it kind of a new thing to him? Have you tried him in a snaffle type that doesn't have the curb or poll pressure? Lots of questions I know but my old standby is that if there is something they are doing that I don't like, I will go back to a simple snaffle and see if that helps. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those 'curb bits are evil' type people LOL, but a snaffle can alleviate a lot of issues the horse has and with the proper work, can prepare them for a curb bit better.

I recently sent a mare home that came to me with 30 days of supposed training so I progressed her pretty quickly up into the curb and she reacted much like you describe your gelding. She was either bracy or avoiding the bit and I couldn't get her to do anything I wanted; so I put her back into a snaffle for a little while longer and the second time I moved her up it went smooth as glass.


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## JennKzoo

This is the bit that came with him. I was also told he came from a Boys Military Academy and was used as a parade horse, so I was thinking he is probably used to a curb. My thought was to try one of the snaffles on him to just to see how he'd do in one too. I thought maybe the center piece that turns in the bit was pinching his tongue because if you lay your had over it and move it around it will pinch your fingers.


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## SidMit

Love this! Thank you Smrobs!


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## smrobs

Jenn, that could be a big part of the problem. My dad had an old bit that looked exactly like the one that I posted that I was looking at one day. It had been used for so long that the copper of the barrel was beginning to wear and was bent in a place or two and I put it on my finger and it pinched the crap out of me too.


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## Missdv

Thanks, this settles the argument I have with a friend. She says she does not believe in using bits, she rides naturally, yet she uses a mechanical hackamore. I am currently using a full cheek snaffle, to work on my girls stopping issues, but she does fine in a halter or sidepull hackamore. I mistakingly used a tom thumb on her when i first started and another friend almost had a heart attack. Now I'm on the right track I think, is there any advise you can give me on stopping issues, going is not a problem unless it's something scary or a male horse (stallion or gelding, she ain't picky).


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## faye

I just thought I would point out that if someone says they are riding in a tom thumb then you need to find out if they are riding in an english bit or a western bit.

In an ennglish bit a tomthumb pelham is actualy a fairly mild pelham in that the shanks are less then 2 inches long! Where as in western I believe that it is a fairly harsh bit


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## roguepaint29

*awsome info*

I have an 8 yr old welsh pony/quater horse & a 10 yr old paint/quater horse. I was looking for a bit that offered a little more control when needed but was still genital. I've been using a hackamore on the pony mix since i started working with him, he does quite well. now the paint has had a snaffle with about 6" shanks and he still fights it every so often, normally very good a neck reining but when it comes to corrections of stopping he tends to fight. I was wondering about trying a hackamore combo bit on him but not now. Thanks, any suggestions would be great, I'm thinking of trying the loose shanks on him?


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## SissyGoBob

Stupid question..... can you add a noseband to a bit?


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## roguepaint29

*Excuse Me!*

Well Excuse Me! I have only ever used a small number of bits and don't know about every piece of tack that exists in the world that's why I asked for advise! so, thanks for your advise to a STUPID QUESTION!:evil:


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## SissyGoBob

roguepaint29 said:


> Well Excuse Me! I have only ever used a small number of bits and don't know about every piece of tack that exists in the world that's why I asked for advise! so, thanks for your advise to a STUPID QUESTION!:evil:


 
WTF?! that was my question.. I didnt even read your post. I was asking if you can put a noseband on a bit. Had NOTHING to do with you.


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## A knack for horses

roguepaint29 said:


> Well Excuse Me! I have only ever used a small number of bits and don't know about every piece of tack that exists in the world that's why I asked for advise! so, thanks for your advise to a STUPID QUESTION!:evil:


I think Sissy was reffering to her question being "stupid", not yours roguepaint29. 

Anyway, I'm tucking this thread away so I can read it later. I skimmed it, and the information looks easy to understand and educational. (As I am "tack challenged".) 
:clap:Thanks smrobs for posting this very informative thread.


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## SissyGoBob

A knack for horses said:


> I think Sissy was reffering to her question being "stupid", not yours roguepaint29.
> 
> Anyway, I'm tucking this thread away so I can read it later. I skimmed it, and the information looks easy to understand and educational. (As I am "tack challenged".)
> :clap:Thanks smrobs for posting this very informative thread.


 
lol thank you. I did the same thing, I love this thread.


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## A knack for horses

smrobs said:


>


I had a chance to read through you article...and as I predicted, it was very informative, as well as thurough. (I also thought JustDressageIt's article on snaffles was equally amazing.) I only have two questions:

1. As I was looking at the pictures you posted, I noticed some of the bits had additional rings on them (as the pictures quoted above). On the first picture, I'm assuming that the rings next to the omouthpiece are for the chinstrap? In the second, I'm not sure. Could you tell me what the extra rings are for?

2. I know your goal with this thread was to educate, so I don't think you would mind. But could I print out your article for reference in case the entire internet suddenly stopped working for some reason? (I don't think it would happen, but you never know:wink 

Thanks Again!


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## smrobs

Knack, I don't mind at all if you print it out . That's the whole reason why I put it on here so that folks could maybe find out things that they didn't know before.

As for the extra rings on some of the bits, you'll get a different answer from everyone you ask LOL. On a curb bit, you always attach the curb strap to the ring that is above the mouthpiece. On the ones with the ring at the mouthpiece, part of the reason is that it keeps the mouthpiece stationary on the shank so that it doesn't slide up and down to create a gag action. Another part is that you can more slowly transition a horse up from a snaffle with these types of bits. You can put your reins on the rings by the mouthpiece and it makes the bit sort of a hybrid between a snaffle and a leverage bit. Along those same lines, you can use 4 reins (a pair on the mouthpiece rings and a pair on the lower rings) to help to minimize the confusion on the part of the horse and help better prepare them for the reins to be used on just the shank ends.


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## zaudika

smrobs said:


> Yep, in any bit that is worth it's cost, either 6 or 6 1/2 is about as short a shanks as I have been able to find. My fave bit is in a link a couple of posts above this but I also really like the looks of this bit. I will probably end up getting one of these as well just to see how it feels.
> Antique Low Port Hinged Futurity Bit - Statelinetack.com


I've read your thread a few times now and really appreciate the information as I'm just beginning to transition my mare to western (she's 5 and has been doing english for 2 years). 

I've tried several different bits and am leaning towards trying a bit similar to the one you posted that I've quoted. I'm currently using a tom-thumb with straight shanks on her and while it seems to be working well -- I'm trying to find something else as I'm not sure it's the best one I could be using. 

My Question::: She's doing pretty good with neck reining, but still has quite a ways to go... will the bit quoted above allow for direct reining still while I continue to teach her to neck-rein? 

Thank you .. any suggestions or opinions are welcome.


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## smrobs

Zaudika, I am glad that you were able to get some good information from this post. Yes, that bit will still allow you to direct rein without being too confusing. The biggest problem I have ever run into with putting a mild curb on a horse that isn't solid with the neck rein is that sometimes they get confused at first due to the different pressures. Patience and exaggerated cues get them through that quickly though and that stage doesn't usually last very long.


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## SidMit

Still getting great info from this post. However, I saw something called a happy mouth and can not find it mentioned in either of the bit post...What is it?


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## smrobs

A happy mouth is just a description of a bit that has some kind of rubberized or plastic cover over the metal of the mouth.









I don't have any experience with these.


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## Country Girl

the "S" shape in the shank actually do anything or is it more for look?


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## smrobs

Nope, just more for look.


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## Country Girl

Kay, Thanx


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## Fort fireman

You had mentioned about the hooded port bit and not having much experience with them. The hooded bit is kind of a mid way between a ported bit and a spade. As you know a spade if used incorrectly can be down right dangerous. With the hooded port you have a good bit for the rider that isn't quite at the point where they can ride a bit without hurting the horse or themselves but they can start learning the basics of a spade bit use. The roller ,or cricket, as it's sometimes called is there to encourage the horse to pick the bit up. Instead of the bit just kinda hanging in the mouth like happens with alot of bit , These and the spade bit you want the horse to actaully hold with the tongue and "pick it up". If the horse is rolling and playing with the cricket he is soft throughout his mouth and ultmately his whole body. There fore he is more likely to pick up on the subtle cues of a spade bit or in this case the hooded port. It has the copper hood to promote saliva production and to kinda fill in the tongue relief. Making it easier again for the horse to "pick up" bit. It is still a fairly advanced bit for horse and rider and when moving a horse into this bit it is usually used with the two rein vaquero style of transition. Which is a rawhide hakamore and the bit in cojunction. When you start out you will use the hackamore 99 perent of the time and slowly work toward the bit more and more until ultimately the bosal is no longer needed. Just like the spade bit.


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## bubba13

Country Girl said:


> the "S" shape in the shank actually do anything or is it more for look?


If you're referring to a shank like this










then it is designed to keep the horse from reaching out and biting to get a hold of the shank, which could of course be both dangerous and super annoying.


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## iridehorses

... also a swept back shank is more mild then a straight shank or a reverse "S". There is less leverage on a swept back.


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## redrooster

Awesome!


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## Stakie

This thread has been very helpful for me. I am re-learning rein control to be honest. My horse uses a tom thumb. He does very well in it. I barely touch the reins. This bit was suggesred by my trainer who is also who I got the horse from. However I am still not sure why He uses it. What really is the benifit for him and me? I also understand because Ziggy is missing a few teeth it may make bits different for him. Can someone shed some light onto the matter?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iridehorses

Many horseman still mistakenly think of the TT as a "Western Snaffle" and it used to be the go-to bit for many. Just as time and experience has improved tack, so the TT has really been understood as a "has been" bit. 

If your horse needs or prefers leverage, there are much better choices that will give him the same feel in his mouth as the TT but will be more balanced and less severe.


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## Stakie

Could you give me some examples, please?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

The Tom Thumb is a bit that gets a bad rap for being very harsh--stories have been passed around of people breaking their horse's jaw with it. Now, that seems a little exaggerated to me (I can't imagine how much pressure they'd have to be exerting on the reins to cause that much damage), and while I don't consider the TT to be particularly cruel, I just plain don't like it for a variety of reasons. Many people do use and love this bit, swearing by it and using it for training colts. To each his own, but my personal opinion is that there are _far_ better bits on the market.










This, right here, is a true Tom Thumb--and the worst one in existence. The straight shanks don't give the horse any warning at all--the second you apply pressure, they pop right around, snatching the curb and activating the nutcracker effect with the mouthpiece. It also makes direct reining difficult--the straight shanks, combined with the way the mouthpiece attaches to the shanks (no freedom whatsoever), mean that when you pull on one side, the entire bit twists rather painfully in the horses mouth. The curved shank versions aren't quite as bad, but it's still quite difficult for the rider to convey the intended cue to the horse, no matter how light or heavy his or her hands are. This bit just doesn't have a whole lot of finesse in the horse's mouth--it's all or nothing. And any efforts at direct reining will likely result in confusion for the horse. While many horses do ride well in a TT, this often has far more to do with the kindness of the horse's temperament than the quality of the bit.

Now compare the above bit to this, your standard Argentine Snaffle.










At first glance, they look very similar. But the Argentine is much better balanced. Look at the curved shanks--these make it less harsh, and a slight touch of the rein will give a horse warning that a cue is coming, giving the horse time to react. Also, the joint between the two parts of the mouthpiece is finished better, so it will be less likely to pinch. Most importantly, the attachment from mouthpiece/shank is not fixed in the vertical direction. This gives both parts some freedom and independent movement. Slight jingles in the reins are often all that is needed to give a cue and thus get the desired response from the horse without the yanking that is often required with a Tom Thumb. Ask any horse--most will respond so much better to bits of this type.

Of course, the "snaffle" mouthpiece in both bits has the potential to "nutcracker" and pinch, so be careful with that. A three-piece mouth is more desireable in most cases.


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## Stakie

Thank you. That seems like a great alternative. I just don't want to disrespect my trainer. Also don't want to hurt my horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13

Might look into a three-piece (dogbone) mouthpiece as an alternative, too, if you can find one to borrow without putting out a lot of money.

Also makes some difference whether you're neck-reining or direct-reining.


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## Stakie

I use whatever my trainer uses. She has some other bits but I have not idea what they are. My best bet is to just buy one when I move my horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## iridehorses

I'm going to suggest taking the discussion to a new thread since we are way off target with the last few posts. Good discussion though.


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## Holly17

*Tom Thumb Bit*

Awesome information but before this thread gets moved, I have a quick question. I too ride with a Tom Thumb, only because that's what my horse's previous owner rode with. But I don't think it's the best for my horse now and what I do.

I ride with both hands when I'm excercising/schooling on the property, but when I hit the trails I ride with one hand, on a loose rein. I've been interested in a 'western dressage' program that is starting up in my area, so I ride with more contact then I used to. Because of this, I'm trying to find a good, all around bit for this kind of work, and one that I can use on the trails as well. I've never really been happy with the Tom Thumb...just couldn't come up with a good alternative. And my horse is a 9 year old well broke gelding, who has been very forgiving of the TT.

Thanks!


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## bubba13

Seems like most of the Western dressage I've seen is done in a snaffle bit of sorts, so you can ride on contact. Generally a regular loose-ring snaffle. If you're going to go with a curb, and you'll be doing a lot of contact and two-handing, I'd look into a Myler or Billy Allen. Does your WD club have bit regulations, though?


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## Holly17

*Tom Thumb Bits*

Thanks for your suggestions. I don't belong to a club and I'm not necessarily going to be showing, but the coach I'm riding with right now, who specializes in Western Dressage, is not a fan of TT's, and for the kind of work that I'm doing, it makes sense.

I'm thinking that a Billy Allen with shorter, swivel shanks but be the best solution?


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## Appyt

I love this bit so much all my horses end up in it. 
AT Low Port Loose Cheek Low Port Western Bit 5in - Horse.com and since I couldn't get the pic to link from there, Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Francois Gauthier Antique Hinged Futurity Bit

Everything swivels and you can direct rein when needed without the confusion I see in the jointed curb bits. I find it very soft and very communicative. AND it's not expensive.  win win


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## natisha

Appyt said:


> I love this bit so much all my horses end up in it.
> AT Low Port Loose Cheek Low Port Western Bit 5in - Horse.com and since I couldn't get the pic to link from there, Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Francois Gauthier Antique Hinged Futurity Bit
> 
> Everything swivels and you can direct rein when needed without the confusion I see in the jointed curb bits. I find it very soft and very communicative. AND it's not expensive.  win win


I use that same bit on my finished horses. I love the low purchase & short shanks. Thanks for the links as I need another one or two.


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## Appyt

natisha, good to know I'm not alone.  I bought one, loved it so much i recommended it to a friend. I now have 3 on headstalls, my friend has 2 and my DIL has 2 for their 2 horses as well.


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## Holly17

Thanks for all the responses. I hope that you will bear with another question or two! How would the Francois Gauthier Futurity bit compare to a Billy Allen? My horse is a finished 9 yr. old gelding, and I've always used TT's, and never explored my options. This is a wonderful education for me!


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## Appyt

A Billy Allen is a mouth piece, not a whole bit. Well that's my understanding. Differences I can't tell you other than look at them both closely and compare other things like purchase, shank length etc. I would say this is more like some mylers as they also have lots of independent actions. BA's imo are more like a 3piece mouth but the middle is a fatish roller. So could be very similar feel. I like those too, only have one that i'd call a BA style and it's on a Kimberwick that I loved using before I found these.. 

I'm off to haul a silly lil mini with a bellyache to the doc.


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## Holly17

Thanks Appyt and hope everything works out with the mini.


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## natisha

Appyt said:


> A Billy Allen is a mouth piece, not a whole bit. Well that's my understanding. Differences I can't tell you other than look at them both closely and compare other things like purchase, shank length etc. I would say this is more like some mylers as they also have lots of independent actions. BA's imo are more like a 3piece mouth but the middle is a fatish roller. So could be very similar feel. I like those too, only have one that i'd call a BA style and it's on a Kimberwick that I loved using before I found these..
> 
> I'm off to haul a silly lil mini with a bellyache to the doc.


I hope all turns out well.


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## Appyt

Thank you Natisha, It seems to have resolved. Maybe from the trailer ride to the vet or possibly she is having an odd allergic reaction as her breathing was pretty heavy. My other pony had a similar issue a few years ago tho he is fine now. Not sure what they may be getting into but they are shut in the arena/barn for the time being so I can keep an eye on this.


----------



## natisha

Appyt said:


> Thank you Natisha, It seems to have resolved. Maybe from the trailer ride to the vet or possibly she is having an odd allergic reaction as her breathing was pretty heavy. My other pony had a similar issue a few years ago tho he is fine now. Not sure what they may be getting into but they are shut in the arena/barn for the time being so I can keep an eye on this.


Thanks for the update & I'm glad they are fine.


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## MyHorseAndMe

Thanks, it is so helpful!!!!!


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## ThaiDye

Okay, this is probably a dumb question, but I'm still fairly new to horses, so just thought I'd ask:
I bought this bit from Myler








My question is, do you use a curb chain with it? I have been, since the lady at the store said the curb chain is essentially my "brakes" for the horse, but I have read you don't use a curb with a snaffle & was kinda confused.
Also, is there a lot of difference between loose ring, dee ring & eggbutt?




BTW: this bit (above) works great with my mustang. 
With my Walker, I used this one








But when she ran away with me one time, my neighbor put her in something like this








except, where the curb should be there is a piece of metal like a mullen mouth (I'll take a picture of it tomorrow). I hate it because it looks painful, but he has more experience with horses, so I let him use it. Thankfully, she is on maternity leave, so it didn't get used much, but I think I will just put her back in a snaffle & see how it goes.


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## iridehorses

The lady at the tack store needs some education. The first bit you show does not use a curb chain the way a leverage bit does. The only reason someone puts a curb chain on that bit is to prevent the bit from being pulled through the horse's mouth if he is resisting your reins making a turn (typical on a green horse).

The second bit has a Billy Allen mouth piece, my favorite. If your horse is not stopping with that bit then both you and your horse could use some training not moved up to a harsher bit. 

The third bit is a typical Walking Horse bit and, like any leverage bit, can be severe in uneducated hands.


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## bubba13

I'd be curious to see that solid curb you're talking about. It's not a Power Curb, is it?










The first bit, the snaffle, are you using the slots, or not?

The second bit is a great bit, and you should not need something harsher to prevent a runaway.


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## ThaiDye

No, it's not a power curb. I put a curly shoe string on it to cushion it a bit since it was cutting her bottom jaw. She has been in maternity leave for the last couple months, so we haven't been using it & he only used it a short time before we stopped riding her.



































I think sometimes he doesn't know what he's talking about, but he has more experience than me, I'm reluctant to disagree with his advice. That is why I am trying to learn all I can about everything so I can make my own decisions about my horses.


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## ThaiDye

> The first bit, the snaffle, are you using the slots, or not?
> The second bit is a great bit, and you should not need something harsher to prevent a runaway.


Yes, I am using the slots on the first bit. The second bit I brought home when he changed Dakota's bit to that harsh one, but he's over my house all the time & one day I saw it was gone. I asked him about it & he said he took it & has been using it in his pony. Now it's all rusty & i really don't want it back, so I thought I'd just try out the snaffle in Dakota & if it works well for her, then just get her one of her own.

Funny thing, tho, I used to ride her in a jointed-mouth loose ring snaffle & she would toss her head & ride with her head high all the time (avoiding the bit?).
Then I bought the Myler bit book to learn about bits & chose that second bit I posted. All was well until she ran away with me one day. While at the Equine Affaire last Feb, I asked Julie Goodnight about the bit change & all she said was she "wouldn't have put her horse in that bit", but wouldn't explain why or offer any suggestions. That was really disappointing to me since I watch her show (Horse Master) all the time on RFDTV & I guess I just expected her to be more helpful.


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## smrobs

Um, wow. This may sound a bit rude but I know of no other way to say it.

If you are riding her in a bit like that and cranking on her mouth to the point that the curb bar is cutting into her chin, then there are some _very_ serious training problems that need to be addressed. As for the neighbor that suggested she be ridden in that, he needs to be smacked. Your brakes don't come from the size or strength of the bit in their mouth, it comes from the training that they've gotten. If your mare is running away with you in any bit that isn't putting her lower jaw in a vice, then there is a desperate need for retraining for both the rider and the horse.


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## ThaiDye

Just to clarify...I do not approve of that bit. I think it looks cruel myself. My neighbor is the one who "insists" she needs that. It was only used a few times (to my objections), but not knowing any better (remember, I am new to horses), I let him do it. I am going over right now to throw that thing into the trash can...I can think of no better place for it.

Thank you for your honesty. I did not take anything as being "rude". I just wanted someone else who knows something about horses to second my opinion that this bit is cruel.


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## bubba13

I've only seen that bit in person once, advertised--aptly--as a "Whoa Horse." I wondered if you were talking about it, but the picture of the Walker bit threw me off. That bit is NOT meant to be ridden on contact. It should only be used by very experienced riders, and then with a draped rein. The point of the curb is to intimidate the horse into having a quick stop. You slam them into the ground a couple times, and they won't soon forget that pain. From then on, every time you touch the reins they sit down and slam on the brakes.

Do not, I repeat, do not use it anymore, or you run the risk not only of causing your horse pain, but of permanently ruining her mouth (or causing her to rear from the pressure--that curb can even break a jaw). It's also time to stop taking advice from Mr. Neighbor....not all "experts" are as they claim to be. 

Instead, if you are somehow able to find competent instruction, and a trainer who is willing to work with both your horse and you, that is the avenue I would take. No bit can prevent a horse from running away, but a good rider can prevent a dangerous bolting episode on any horse with any bit. But you have to know how to use the tools appropriately for your horse (and how to choose the correct one).


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## ThaiDye

> Do not, I repeat, do not use it anymore


No way! Already off the bridle. Want to throw it away, but it doesn't belong to me. Maybe I'll just hide it & see if he ever asks for it back. Hopefully, he won't, but he may have borrowed it from a local rancher, so I shouldn't toss it...just yet.



> It's also time to stop taking advice from Mr. Neighbor.


Yeah, I got that. I have been investing in some training videos (which help alot), and also have been in contact with one trainer. The only problem with the trainer is, she wants me to board there & come for training sessions. I keep my horse at home & really don't want to board her elsewhere, so I will keep looking.
As it is, I ride everyday & my riding skills get better each time. I just wish I knew more horsey people to talk & ride with.

I want to thank everyone for their advice & don't worry...that bit will NEVER pass any of my horses' lips ever again!


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## ThaiDye

Oh, ant BTW, my neighbor never did this (Thank God)


> You slam them into the ground a couple times, and they won't soon forget that pain.


But he must have used a strong hand on it once or twice since I did see a scab on her jaw. That was when I put the coil shoestring on to try to cushion it.

It's interesting, too, that my mare really doesn't like him. She tries to bite him when we ride together & once, she ran him into a tree to get him off her back. Dislocated his shoulder. Except for the few times she ran away with me, she actually seems very protective of me.
As far as the running away goes, I have learned to spin her around when she tries to bolt. Works better than pulling back on the reins.


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## Eclipse295

I was looking at different bits that were in barrel horse's mouths at a recent open speed show and was beyond amazed, I saw Mechanical Hacks with 10" shanks, the gag bit rope hack combos all with twisted wire mouth pieces, I even saw a few of the metal nose ones. I was just standing there on my horse in a Argentine Snaffle copper 2 piece mouthpiece.


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## jkrodric

Thank you Smrobs your post was very helpful!!! It was just what I was looking for.


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## Ashley at Rivermont

Very informative! Thanks!


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## jumanji321

Eclipse295 said:


> I was looking at different bits that were in barrel horse's mouths at a recent open speed show and was beyond amazed, I saw Mechanical Hacks with 10" shanks, the gag bit rope hack combos all with twisted wire mouth pieces, I even saw a few of the metal nose ones. I was just standing there on my horse in a Argentine Snaffle copper 2 piece mouthpiece.


Some of the things barrel racers use are just rediculous. It's mostly because they don't properly train their horses to stop without yanking back as hard as possible.


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## bubba13

Please don't say ignorant, inaccurate, biased stuff like the above unless you know what you're talking about.


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## jumanji321

bubba13 said:


> Please don't say ignorant, inaccurate, biased stuff like the above unless you know what you're talking about.


However, I didn't mean to make a blanket statement. I'm quite aware of the many talented and well-trained barrel horses and their riders. I said some of the things barrel racers use are rediculous. It's mainly due to the uneducated ones that seem to flock towards barrel racing (like any other discipline) and think their horse wont stop, so they stick the harshest thing they can find in their horse's mouth. It adds to their poor seat and balance to top it off. I know that you barrel race and I'm sorry that I offended you. I barrel race a little bit too (gymkhanas) and I know what it's like to be blanketed under one statement. I'll admit it was ignorant of me to say something so vague and not think about offending any person.


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## bubba13

I don't disagree that there are a disproportionate number of heavy-handed yahoos in barrel racing that have absolutely no clue about proper bit selection. But my beef is that a lot of people see a bit, and just because it has a long shank, or a lot of gag, or a chain mouthpiece, or a noseband, or whatever, they automatically assume it's harsh and even. Not so. You'll see just as many educated, experienced, humane riders using those bits as you will see backyard jackoffs. The key is in how it's being employed. A lot of the bits that look horrible are not, and a lot of innocuous-looking bits are actually far harsher.

If you study the mechanics, this bit, for example:










is actually kinder than a bit like this one:










Similarly, the following two bits are simply not very harsh at all, when used correctly:



















Even this one is not nearly as bad as people first think upon seeing it--I'd classify it only as a moderate bit, and it's certainly far milder than the majority of combo bits on the market:


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## jumanji321

bubba13 said:


> I don't disagree that there are a disproportionate number of heavy-handed yahoos in barrel racing that have absolutely no clue about proper bit selection. But my beef is that a lot of people see a bit, and just because it has a long shank, or a lot of gag, or a chain mouthpiece, or a noseband, or whatever, they automatically assume it's harsh and even. Not so. You'll see just as many educated, experienced, humane riders using those bits as you will see backyard jackoffs. The key is in how it's being employed. A lot of the bits that look horrible are not, and a lot of innocuous-looking bits are actually far harsher.


Oh yes, those are the people I meant. The ones who think barrels are all hands and no body or leg cues. I have no problem with a person using a shanked bit properly.


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## natisha

bubba13 said:


> The point of the curb is to intimidate the horse into having a quick stop. You slam them into the ground a couple times, and they won't soon forget that pain. From then on, every time you touch the reins they sit down and slam on the brakes.


I really hope people don't believe this.


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## bubba13

natisha said:


> I really hope people don't believe this.


That is absolutely what the Whoa Horse bit:










The Stop-n-Turn hackamore:










And the Easy Stop are for.










Even used well, they work off pain, and offer no finesse to speak of. They should _never_ be used for more than a couple days in a row, and never for more than a very short riding session


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## Appyt

Bubba, you did not mention those bits, you said CURB BITS........ There are a ton of curb bits that are no more a harsh bit than the mildest snaffle is. Please don't generalize that way.


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## Hukassa

bubba13 said:


> I've only seen that bit in person once, advertised--aptly--as a "Whoa Horse." I wondered if you were talking about it, but the picture of the Walker bit threw me off. That bit is NOT meant to be ridden on contact. It should only be used by very experienced riders, and then with a draped rein. The point of the curb is to intimidate the horse into having a quick stop. You slam them into the ground a couple times, and they won't soon forget that pain. From then on, every time you touch the reins they sit down and slam on the brakes.


If you read the whole paragraph, its very clear she talking about a certain bit.


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## bubba13

Go back and read my quote in context. I was referring specifically to another poster's Whoa Horse bit, which has a solid curb. It's on the bottom of the page preceding the quoted post of mine.

Edit: Oops, thanks Hukassa--beat me to it!


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## Appyt

OOPS, see post below. I thought I was editing this post..


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## Appyt

I am sorry. I had read that at a previous session and didn't look up to see what you referred to. Quotes help people with crafts.  I took it as a general statement. I just looked up as i should have before posting this one. I had gone off of Natasha's quote..


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## WickedNag

Holy Bit Horse Person! That whoa bit is ???? Ouch!


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## natisha

Appyt said:


> I am sorry. I had read that at a previous session and didn't look up to see what you referred to. Quotes help people with crafts.  I took it as a general statement. I just looked up as i should have before posting this one. I had gone off of Natasha's quote..


I get blamed for everything:wink:


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## Appyt

Ahahaha, Poor Natisha(spelled it right this time).. Yes, of course it's your fault cuz it can't be mine.


----------



## natisha

Appyt said:


> Ahahaha, Poor Natisha(spelled it right this time).. Yes, of course it's your fault cuz it can't be mine.


Ok, I concede.:hide:

Just kidding, it takes more than that to bring me down :lol:

:happydance::happydance::happydance:


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## Appyt

I'll dance to that.

:happydance::happydance::happydance:


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## Skyseternalangel

This may come in handy... thank you smrobs


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## spottedappaloosas

Have a bit question. Unsure where to put it, here, on a new post. So here is the link to my post http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/bit-help-103947/#post1238967


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## luvmygelding

I know this post is older but I thought this would be the best place to get some advice on a bit/hack for a direct reining soft mouthed horse. He's a bit on the green side (as am i ) but well behaved. Thanks!


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## jumanji321

luvmygelding said:


> I know this post is older but I thought this would be the best place to get some advice on a bit/hack for a direct reining soft mouthed horse. He's a bit on the green side (as am i ) but well behaved. Thanks!


For direct reining, any smooth snaffle is good for a greeny and a sidepull is a good bitless alternative.


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## smrobs

^^Exactly. If a horse doesn't know how to neck rein, then they should be in something designed for direct rein riding like a simple snaffle (d-ring, full cheek, loose ring) or a sidepull type headstall. Once they have the training in place to be really responsive to neck reining and are giving to pressure from any direction, then they are ready to move up to a curb type bit.


----------



## luvmygelding

Thanks guys! Appreciate all the suggestions. I fear that a bitless bridle at this point might not give me enough control... (although it's my future goal) He's not fiesty, but I am worried about control in certian situations. Opinions?


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## smrobs

Well, it isn't the thing you have on his head that gives you control, it's the training that he gets. Any horse, given the _wrong_ training, can run through just about any bit (regardless of how strong or cruel the bit is) if they take a mind to and almost any horse, given the _right_ training, can be ridden with nothing more than the string from a feed bag.

If you take the time and have the knowledge to get the training right, and _keep_ it right, then you shouldn't have a problem with using whatever you wish.


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## luvmygelding

I completely agree and hope to get to that level some day, but i think a relationship has to be built before they can trust you and you them. I am all about as little pressure or discomfort as possible, but when you're out there in the open and vounerable it's nice to have some leverage. Maybe that's just me being green!


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## smrobs

LOL, it's all good. It's times like that that knowing things like the pulley rein and how to spiral a horse to control their speed come in really handy.


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## DrumRunner

Subbing! :wink:


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## NorthernMama

Lots of pictures in this thread don't show up for me. Either they are black boxes with and x in them or "image not available" appears. Any idea how I can see at least the ones with the black boxes?


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## SouthernTrails

.

Updated a few of the missing photos in the 1st set of posts in thread......


.


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## Farmer Eales

hi all....looking for some help with a bit for my horse...kinda late since I have been riding him with the same one for 8 yrs now ...I had this bit made fr a friend so not sure of the name,,see back then I found it hard to find a 6" mouth bit...after reading smorbs posts I have learned a lot...I grew up ,just jump on and ride..only been 8 yrs since I have been riding with a saddle,,,and even know I would rather ride bare back...I have no choice but to ride in and around traffic..I have to cross a highway to ride with my friends...I have no prob. with leaving my barn ..its on the way home ,it could be 5 hrs ride or just 20 mins as soon as he turns for home he want to get there fast..I think my bit is pretty harsh >>it has long shanks ,med port ,all solid...the shanks r pretty straight...not sure should I change it up and get a swivel shank bit or keep with the grazing solid one...did all this typing and not even sure if I know how to post this...lol...sooo not good with computers..


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## AnrewPL

subbing


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## KayceeJo

Oh my gosh love it. And I love how you didn't bash any of the bits, just explained the pros and cons of each. Very good information!


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## kami

This is so informative and very well written and explained. Thank you so much for the wonderful info!


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## cookmama

*Need Help!!!*

Looking at these two Hackamores. Any opinions on them? I have a 3 1/2 year old Appaloosa gelding that is very easy going. Still learning to neck rein. Stops decent. Very good natured. Does not like a bit in his mouth. Thanks















Any thoughts on these two?


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## bsms

smrobs said:


> Well, it isn't the thing you have on his head that gives you control, it's the training that he gets....


I hear that a lot, but I have to partially disagree. If you have a competitive horse, then when she gets going fast around another horse she will WANT to run. Horses have opinions and feelings too. And if she wants it bad enough, she will try to follow her will instead of your will, even tho she knows the cues down pat.

In a situation like that, one uses a bit for control - just as you do if the horse decides it WILL turn and go home. Maybe that means the horse is imperfectly trained. If so, I know more imperfectly trained horses than perfectly trained ones! Given how few of us ditch bits as "no longer needed" and ride in rope halters, I have to conclude my experience mirrors the majority - that we DO use bits for control, as well as communication.

Just as a crop can be used to reinforce the leg aids, and tell a lazy horse to go faster regardless, the right bit can reinforce seat aids. One makes it unpleasant behind, so the horse goes faster. The other can make it unpleasant up front, so the horse goes slower.

It is also true that you can teach a horse to run thru any bit. If slowing gives it no release, then eventually nothing you use on the front will stop it because the horse has been trained that responding to the bit is meaningless - so he tries something else. But you have to TRAIN the horse to ignore the bit, and most of us do not do that.

When Bandit got worried yesterday and decided we would trot fast past whatever it was, when I wanted him to walk, I could not and did not throw "training dust" on his face. I used the bit - a plain snaffle in this case, but I made it unpleasant in the front. He knows he gets relief by slowing, so he did and he got relief. Then, when he didn't respond to an opening rein to turn back to the scary area, I used more force - until he did turn. Then release, and we rode back past the scary area on slack reins.

I think most people properly use the bit for control. If the rider 'controls' the horse long enough, then the horse becomes trained to obey the rider. Some submissive horses will eventually give up all resistance. Others will always reserve the right to tell their rider "No!" and make a fight of it.

In either case, the bit is used to give control in order to train the horse.

The same is true of curb bits. Curb bits do not work by increasing pressure thru leverage. With Mia, I needed all my strength to stop her in a snaffle when she got excited - bracing my thighs against the poleys of my Australian saddle and using all 180 lbs of me. In a curb bit, with 3:1 leverage, she would stop very reliably with a pump of my forearm. Even with leverage, the curb with my forearm was putting far less pressure in her mouth than the snaffle with my entire body.

The difference is WHERE the pressure was applied. When a horse stretches out its head with a snaffle, the bit is pulled against the molars. That either gives the horse release, or causes intense pain if the snaffle catches the cheek between the metal and the molars. Either one gives the horse incentive to run.

A curb bit rotates, so the pressure is always against the tongue and the bars. The horse gets no release unless the rider gives it, but it also is in no danger of having its cheek caught and crushed (the real "nutcracker effect"). A good curb is thus a good training tool for teaching a habit of slowing or stopping in response to the rider - and in fact, Mia learned a good stop in a curb and eventually had one in a snaffle as well.

A good snaffle is best for lateral cues - so if you are working on turns, a good snaffle is the best category of bit to use for training. If the horse is not a bolter, or if you have lots of open area to use for turning, then it can also be an excellent bit for training a good stop.

A curb bit ridden with one hand and an emphasis on slack reins is a good tool for training a good stop. Some are also OK for direct reining in turns, but none are the best design for that use.

Bits are used in stages. In the first stage, a horse needs to learn what the cues mean, starting from the ground and working up to being ridden.

Once the horse knows what the cues mean, the second stage begins. The bit is then used for control, so that obeying results in good things happening and disobeying results in unhappiness, so why not obey from the beginning?

Once that idea gets thru, the horse enters the third stage, where the bit is normally used for communication - because the horse has already decided that submission works. But excitement or fear can cause the horse to revert back into stage two, in which case the bit is once again used for control - and the horse then learns to let the rider decide even when the horse is scared or excited.

A bit NEVER gives total control. The horse is the one with 4 feet on the ground. The rider has zero. The horse's brain controls the feet. Period. We influence the mind of the horse using tools - training. Since the bit NEVER controls the feet, it never controls the horse. But it is normal to use a bit to influence the mind, to get the horse to decide, "This is not working, so I need to try something else". That something else can be stopping, turning, etc. If release comes when the horse makes the right decision, then the bit is being used to train the horse to make the right decision from the beginning. If no release comes, then the horse will eventually ignore any bit - because the RIDER has made the bit meaningless.

All IMHO. I'm just a backyard rider with backyard type horses. I did spend 7 years with a very opinionated, strong-willed mare who taught me what I shared above. When I swapped her to a curb bit, before she would neck rein and while she was bolting on most of the rides, folks told me I was going to ruin her. It turned out to be the best single decision I made with her in the 7 years I owned her. Although she learned a good stop in a curb and then learned it in a snaffle, she was ALWAYS calmer, more relaxed and more eager ridden with a Billy Allen curb. For whatever reason, curb bits clicked with her. It was as though she had been born to be ridden in a curb.

The horse I swapped her for is in a single joint D-ring. He may well be in a snaffle for life. Or go into a sidepull. If I put him in a curb, it will be for refinement. He is probably a more typical horse than Mia. But both types exist, and the rider needs to bit according to the horse's response...


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## SnaffleLover

*Pressure points and Slobber chains*

Nice thread!! Just a question though, what is a slobber chain on certain curbs used for? Also, what would be the most pressure points of this curb?


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## bsms

A slobber chain will prevent a rope from getting caught in the bit. They may have other uses. I don't rope, but if you scroll down and this thread you will get a detailed answer by smrobs (post #9):

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/can-anyone-tell-me-name-bit-382746/#post5004994

A curb rotates around the mouthpiece freely until the curb strap tightens. Until that happens, there is virtually no pressure put on the mouth. It is a nice feature of curbs - used lightly on a trained horse, the horse can respond to the movement of the shanks BEFORE any pressure is applied to the mouth. If the shanks rotate independently of each other, it gives you a lot you can do without using pressure in the mouth.

Once the curb strap tightens, there are two pressure points - the curb strap pushing up and the mouthpiece rotating down against the tongue and the bars - which one depends on the mouthpiece. There is virtually no poll pressure with a curb bit. Folks say there is, but I've put my fingers under the poll strap while the reins are being pulled, and I can't feel any.

Once the curb strap locks the top of the side in place, the main effect is pressure against the bars and tongue. The mechanical leverage is determined by the total length vs the purchase (a class 2 lever):










I've read a curb chain is harsher than a leather curb strap. That sounds reasonable, but lots of things seem reasonable yet are not true.


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## SnaffleLover

*Good to Know*

Thanks for the detailed clear-up, and this might sound stupid, but what's a lip strap ring used for?:confused_color: Sorry xD.


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## smrobs

Not a stupid question at all. A lip strap attaches to the middle of the curb chain. It's mostly used on English type bridles though, because I've never seen one used on a western bit.

I think it's to keep the curb chain a bit more stabilized....maybe LOL. I'm not really sure since I don't ride english.


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