# Teaching him to break at the poll and back-up



## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

poor horse being jammed into a false outline.
He is hollow backed and breaking at the 3rd vertibra instead of the poll, his hocks are in a different county to his neck.

Sorry but you are achieveing the opposite of what you wanted to achieve, breaking at the poll comes from having the back end under them and working through from the hind end


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

He's still totally new to this stuff. Before Friday, I had never asked him to give to the bit at all (besides flexing to the side every now and then). I've never even really taught him to back-up. The pictures don't really show just how well he's reacting, but he is very soft when he does reverse and doesn't tug on the reins or anything. He should get better as time goes by. I'm not asking him to collect or move forwards collected or anything, I'm just teaching him to back-up willingly. As a trail-horse, he needs to know how to back up when I ask him to, not how to back up only when he feels like it. This was also the first time he's ever had that particular bit in his mouth... personally, I don't think he really liked it a whole lot, but I'm planning on trying him out with it a few more times before truly judging his reactions to it.

Though, if you think I could do so in a better or different way, please, feel free to let me know how you think I should be teaching him. Don't just criticize me, please, give me some advice here.  He's backing up on ground very well, also, so I must be doing something right.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Head down =/= frame =/= "collection."
You're focusing on head down, which is the complete opposite of what you want to do. Your horse is responding to the extraordinary pressure on his mouth by sucking his chin back to evade the pressure. Bless his heart. 
I'll reply more in depth later; your body position is counterproductive to what you want to accomplish too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I think you're doing well. When he's practiced more, you will want him to break just at the poll, though. I've taught my 6yo's to back on verbal command. In fact, I've taught them a lot on the ground in English, then translate to mounted. Spending time with him is the most important thing. Be sure to ask for many steps backwards, or he'll just stop at a few. Every time he does that demand at least 2-4 more steps backwards. Hope this helps. =D


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

I will add my opinio, as I was the one riding him in the other pics. I was NOT putting "extreme pressure" on his mouth, at all, what so ever. The pictures catch him as he is pulling against my hands. I was only wiggling the reins. As for Britt, I can't tell how much pressure she was using. But, I can assure you, when I was on him, I was sitting perfectly centered and asking for a give, then squeezing with my calves. He backed.
The photos capture the slack in my reins, as you can see in the first. He is tucking his nose like that on his own.


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

The 4th and 5th pic, were when he was pulling on me. I wasn't exerting any pressure against him, just holding until he let go. He was really wanting to sling his head down and to his chest. But, he was backing smoothly.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I think what everyone's trying to say is that a having the horse's head down is not a frame. You want your horse working from his hind end, rounded up into his movement and thus arching his neck.
Picture the horse's energy like rippling water, starting at his hind hooves, moving up his hind legs, along his topline, over his rounded neck, down his nose, across his front hooves and with a push from his front hooves being pushed to his hind legs again. The energy allll starts from his hind end, not from his nose. So you need to encourage him with your legs and seat to round up from his hind end. He should be backing from the motion of your seat rolling backwards, not from bit pressure. And her should be coming into a frame from your legs and seat picking up his back and encouraging him to move off his hind end.

Using rein pressure to achieve a false head set or to force a horse to back is easy but the horse is not moving anatomically correctly and can cause permanent issues later in life. 
Also from those pictures he looks very far behind the vertical, being that far behind the vertical he can probably not even really see where he's going when going forward, and breathing will be made difficult if it's made any more extreme. In clicker training I watched a horse with no rider and no contact from a lead or anything back up for about 40 steps, his nose was nearly touching the ground and he repeatedly tilted his head to either side, back and forth with each step, like checking rear view mirrors, to see where he was going. That is how horses naturally back up without human interference. 

His lateral flexing looks great though


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

I can only speak for myself, here, but all I did was ask him to lighten to the bit. I didn't exactly put pressure on his mouth. I wiggled the rein and he softened. I could feel his back rise under me. But, as he stepped back he would lose the impulsion. Soo..... you may not have been speaking about me, Idk. Trying to just explain what I was doing.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think what Faye is referrring to with the "breaking at the third vertebrae" is this:










And you can see quite a lot of resistance. However, I realise that I chose pretty much the worst photo of the lot, so I am not seeing that the horse is doing that in every photo. I see some flexion at the poll, and I can imagine that he is not necessarily putting a lot of backpull on the reins. 

The thing with backing up is that the quality of the backup is more important than whether of not the horse is broken at the poll. The horse can break at the poll, (and/or 3rd vertebrae) and still be pretty braced in his body. This can show itself in how he moves his feet backward. 

He should move the diagonal pairs backward, AS PAIRS. And he should pick them up and not drag them back. His shoulders will need to come up and he'll need to sink back into his hind a bit for this to happen in the very best way possible. 

Having him flex at the poll is definintely part of that, but having him also lift up those shoulders and be light and soft enough to lift his feet is the goal.

Something that helps this a lot is to get a "twirl" to the head, with Poll flexion. In fact , this head twirl should be the very first thing that you want. It is the horse releasing his jaw and allowing you to get him to flex right or left ONLY at the axis/atlas area. they are the first two neck vertebrae (I forget which bone does the right to left motion and which does the up /down) . they must be loose for the horse to be loose in his body, too. But, the horse can flex all day behind them, at the third vertabre, without ever having the release of tension happen that occures when the first two vertabre are flexed.
The horse will kind of let his jaw almost fall loose and will tuck his jowl back into the front of his neck. You give a release to reward this, then ask for a bit more , so that not only is he flexing there, but also keeping his long head vertical (no rotating). This action really helps to unlock the hind quareters. I don't remember the physical reasons, but it does. Then, when he has that flexed, jowl-tucked into the side of his neck softenss, you ask him to take one step back on THAT side. 
Then, twirl to the other side, get him soft, take one step back on that side.

Try this some time, and look for that feeling of the hrose actually lifting his shoulders, and picking UP his feet to back, ratehr than draggin them back.

first few times won't be perfect, but this excersize helps the horse understand to stay soft in front, bend a bit and keep more weight over his hind legs, even while backing.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm speaking about the method in general, asking a horse to back up should end with the bit, starting by asking for impulsion with leg pressure, preventing forward movement with the bit and rolling your hips backwards, mimicking walking backwards. Also I can see he's moved each foot individually while backing up, this shows me he's still very uncomfortable with the idea. Horses naturally 'trot' backward, moving diagonal pairs, when backed up artificially they will stumble backwards awkwardly. 
As for teaching a horse to break at the poll that also shouldn't have to do with the bit, I don't think you're hauling on the reins, but really you should be ridng him up into the bit, not pulling him down under bit. Regardless of how hard you pull the rein, it's the method not the amount of pressure.

I recommend teaching him to back up, from chest pressure on the ground, connect a verbal cue to it, repeat it until he will back up from the word alone. Then practice it mounted while doing as I previously described.

I'm sure others may be able to phrase it better, I'm not great with wording it, it's all a feeling.


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

I'm trying not to get offended (and take this thread off topic), but I feel like I was the one being pointed at as "not doing it right", since I am on the horse in the only pics where you can see him side on. Which is why I'm trying to defend myself. 
I was asking properly, giving when he gave, etc. When I asked, as long as he came on the vertical, I let him go. THEN, I asked for him to back up with my legs.
He was being pretty lazy, though, as Britt said. He was dragging his feet a good bit in these, but I'm thinking these may have been the first few pictures she made. As I know he was really "walking backwards" after a bit. I could feel the difference in his body, "rising" under me and rounding. So, I want to say he was starting to round up.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am sure you got some good moments out of him and it sounds like you know what to look for. photos can be deceiveing , as they catch only a moment in time.


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

I wish she had gotten a video of it. Because he really improved tremendously. Like I said, I was asking for the back with my legs. At one point, I didn't have to touch the reins, I could just squeeze and "kiss" with the reins held up (no contact at all) and he would back on his ow And I know she was asking him with her legs, too, but idk how much. I can only speak for myself. 
Britt, whenever you see this, hopefully I didn 't throw it too off track.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

another thing you can do is pick up the rein, and use your body to suggest he back up and the instant you feel him rock back onto his hind , but before he actually takes a step, you can reward him. So, you are testing him to see if you can get a "rock back". 'Cause once he rocks back, actually backing will come easy.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Thing is, you DO NOT want to focus on head down OR breaking at the 3rd. The head will become correct when the BODY is correct. 
You are both forcing that horse's head down.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm sorry, you guys asked what people thought, from the pictures, so why are you getting defensive when people are telling you just what they see from the pics.

I also see what everyone else does, resistance and stiffness, and you have been given good advice on how to improve things, so my thought, look at the pics with fresh eyes, and maybe you'll see what we see.


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

"I" did not ask what anyone thought.
I'm getting deffensive because,1) I didn't want to know about my riding and 2) MY pictures are being used as examples of "force" and "incorrect rqiding". Those pictures were taken at the wrong moments, or she just chose those, which I feel are not a good representative of how "I" was asking this horse to move. I can't force you to see that HE was pulling on ME, not the other way around. And I was NOT focusing on his head or the bit. Yes, he was stiff and resistant. But, I'm a little annoyed that it is my riding, particularly, that is being critiqued here; as you cant much see how Britt is asking.
So, to imply that I am not understanding or seeing what is obviously wrong with these particular photos, is really annoying.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheNinja (Dec 5, 2010)

And HOW is putting ZERO contact on the rein and squeezing and him backing "forcing that horses head down"????
To "force" would mean I would need to draw his head back towards me. Correct? Backing willingly is not forcing, correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I do not think you are forcing the horse's head down. the horse moves his head down by himself. But, if you release at that moment, you are teaching him that that is what you wanted. I am NOT saying this is what you did, as the photos do not show that. They do show a horse that is pulling on the rein and dropping his head, and the title (by your friend) seemed to indicate that she thought this was correct and desireable. I think you realize that the photos show a, perhaps unfinished process?


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

First off, thank you everyone for your advice. It will definately be taken into consideration. 

Now, let me address a few issues, specifically the fact that, as TheNinja said, these pictures probably aren't the best, as they are, as someone said, just a moment in time (sorry for just putting these up, but after going back and looking through all of them, these were the best as in not blurry, not too far away, etc...).

TheNinja and I both ask for a back-up in slightly different ways. She explained how she does it, and this is how I do it, I keep a steady pressure on the reins, and when he drops his head, I loosen the rein contact, but squeeze him with my lower legs and 'click' to him to ask for a reverse. 

Also, I never said that he was doing perfect, I stated that he's doing pretty well for a horse who has never been asked to do anything like this before since he was born. I only started asking him to learn to backup on Friday the 15th. Considering how that was only a few days ago, I do think he's slowly catching on fairly quickly, even though he's not perfect, but as the saying goes, practice makes perfect.

As far as round his back and using his hindquarters, he's catching on. I can feel him doing that three times out of five whenever I ask him to back up now, when at first he only did it once out of five. That's also the reason i'm teaching him bareback, so it's easier to tell when he does this properly.

Thank you all for your responses!


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I agree, he is doing pretty well for a first effort. Something else that is nice is the "frown" with the bit, and that indicates that he isn't fighting the bit. I agree that you asked for advice and you got it, but I like that you are working with him. Even if this creates a hole in the finesse of reining him backwards, the two of you can still get a good result from your efforts. I say this thread has a lot of splitting hairs going on.
I retrained a lot of horses when I was teaching. The WORST problems were from those horses whose owners had not spent much time with them. I know I've posted this photo before~










but it shows a 5yo QH that I bought one year before correctly green broken. I worked him through my lesson program and made splendid progress. He would collect on a snaffle, too, but our hobby use(d) an s-shaped curb. Notice his mouth is closed, not gaping like a horses resistant to the bit would do.
Why didn't I keep him? He was a Cremollo and went blind at age 7. I couldn't afford a pasture pet--make of that what you will. (He also kicked me in the forehead when he was seeing shadows--8 stitches later, and lucky that his hoof only grazed my skin, or else we wouldn't know each other.)


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I am not going to read EVERYTHING here in detail. I am nto going to say anything against you or the horse. I will say this is an example of riding a horse front to back instead of back to front. 

The reinback is an advanced maneuver. It is often asked for before the horse is really ready. It should not be asked for if the horse cannot get his weight off his fore hand and collect.. at forward gaits. That is what the horse needs to learn first. He must learn transitions in a gait and between gaits.. and be able to speed up or slow down in balance with out resistance and without losing himself onto his forehand and hollowing his back.. poking his nose out and so forth. 

It takes a LOT of conditioning for a horse to collect and be able to transition DOWN in a balanced manner...a LOT of muscles must work to make it happen. A lot of muscles need to work to collect and hold collection for any length of time. The horse must be conditioned for this. It is also advisable to have the horse able to do a turn on the forehand and the starts of a half pass.. so he understands leg pressure (we are not doing any cantering yet). 

When you get that, you ask for the reinback. The reinback is achieved by first asking the horse to go foreward with your seat and legs.. and then gently resisting with your hands. IF your horse had the training as above, you should actually feel him LIFT his front end as he gives to the squeeze and release from your hands. When he rocks back toward taking his first step back, you immediately release all pressure. Eventually you will get a beautiful rein back with diagonal pairs of legs moving backward together. 

It is hard for me to describe here in print.. but the instant your horse lifts the root of his neck in response to your request at the initial rein back, you will feel it. When that happens it is just awesome if you have not experienced it before. 

Good luck with working your boy. It will probably go a bit easier if you have him in a different headstall. He has to carry the bit he has on the bars of his mouth and on his tongue. If you were to add a flash or dropped nose band to help distribute the weight of the bit to the nose band and headstall, he would have more freedom to work the bit in his mouth and relax his jaw.. making for a nice soft and moist mouth. 

He is a pretty horse.


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## Britt (Apr 15, 2008)

Thank you, Elana.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

faye said:


> poor horse being jammed into a false outline.
> He is hollow backed and breaking at the 3rd vertibra instead of the poll, his hocks are in a different county to his neck.
> 
> Sorry but you are achieveing the opposite of what you wanted to achieve, breaking at the poll comes from having the back end under them and working through from the hind end


You know, sometimes if you can't say something constructive, it's better just to stay out of it. Do you feel pretty smart, now that you have told her how badly she and her horse are doing on their first try? Why don't you try to teach her how to fix it? Sad part is that you actually got a couple "likes" on that post. 

From what Britt said in her posts, it looks to me like she has a good start on it. 

Keep going Britt, you'll get him there.

Nice post Elena.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

thenrie, I think this first statement by the OP:

"I've been teaching my 6 year old TWH to break at the poll at a standstill and back up in a frame..."

unintentionally set up the negative attitude. There have been uncounted threads where people ask about how to get a horse into a frame or how to collect their head, and it eventually drives folks nuts.

'Break at the poll' instead of 'willingly give to the bit' - or whatever it is folks are supposed to be doing by that phrase - is used too often on these boards by someone looking for the image instead of the balanced movement. Same with almost anything involving moving 'in a frame'. It is used too often by someone who wants their horse to LOOK like they are doing it right without actually developing the balance and motion that is needed to really do it right.

I have no idea what the OP's goals are or how she intended it. I'm guessing she wanted feedback on how to get the horse to willingly back up with more power and balance on the rear than the front.

My horses are ridden at a low level that reflects both my riding and my goals. I want my mare to be able to go out on a windy day without doing the "OMG Crouch" every 50 yards. That sounds really simple to a lot of folks, but Mia and I aren't there yet.

To avoid a 'fingernails on chalkboard' reaction, I try to describe my goals with phrases like: balanced, free-moving, relaxed, loose, willing, confident and that well known technical term "oomph from the rear end". I try to avoid using terms like collection, headset, and frame. They are not wrong, but are used wrong often enough that it puts folks on edge.

All just IMHO.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> thenrie, I think this first statement by the OP:
> 
> "I've been teaching my 6 year old TWH to break at the poll at a standstill and back up in a frame..."
> 
> ...


I can understand that. So, if it puts you on edge, don't post a response. When you post a response to an honest question, regardless whether it's from a knowledgeable person or a neophyte, if all you say is "You're wrong", with a bit of sarcasm thrown in as Faye did, your response has no value whatsoever, is a waste of space on the forum, and serves no purpose other than to let everybody know that you're pretty smart. My point is simply that if you're not going to help, just stay out of it. Be nice, or at least courteous.

Now _that's_ what puts me on edge. I guess I should have followed my own advice and just let it go. :wink:


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

haha I think you guys are doing a good job teaching him to back up, he's clearly picking up on your cues. And ya know what? He's your horse he's going to learn to do what you want the way you ask - so what if it's not how everyone else asks or the results aren't what ever one else wants - he's YOURS.

I saw this video a while ago though and thought you might benefit from seeing it. It shows a fantastic example of a horse backing up without any outside influence. So thus, the natural way for a horse to want to back up - you'll notice almost never do horses back up this way when being ridden or even when being asked to by a trainer. But this is how they do it without us getting in the way - and that's what I personally thrive for with my horses, is to let them do what they already do so well, when I ask them to do it.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Thenrie, - i'm not sure who made you the post police. Everyone is entitled to an oppinon and I stated mine. I get very very sick of saying the same thing over and over again and giving out advice that people just dont take, so I no longer do it.

Oh and there was absolutly no sarcasm in my first post so I dont know what your reading that from!


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

TheNinja said:


> The 4th and 5th pic, were when he was pulling on me. I wasn't exerting any pressure against him, just holding until he let go. He was really wanting to sling his head down and to his chest. But, he was backing smoothly.


I understand both sides here and I don't think you are pulling hard but he does seem confused from what I have read IMO. If you don't ask him to "collect" with forward movement it's kind of ridiculous to expect him understand "collected" with backward motion. 

I think there is a big conflict here between the english perspective and western here, in that most dressage horses are not taught backwards motion till MUCH later in their development. 

*Remember, the cues you are probably using to ask him to change his propulsion from forwards to backwards are probably the same whether you realize it or not. Make sure you are not confusing him*


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

thenrie said:


> You know, sometimes if you can't say something constructive, it's better just to stay out of it. Do you feel pretty smart, now that you have told her how badly she and her horse are doing on their first try? Why don't you try to teach her how to fix it? Sad part is that you actually got a couple "likes" on that post.
> 
> From what Britt said in her posts, it looks to me like she has a good start on it.
> 
> ...


I 'liked' her post only because what she said was true for the most part - I'm sure she is someone who has witnessed a lot of people doing things horribly wrong and sometimes people, including myself, get desensitized to people's feelings - but I do *not* agree with the tone in which she emphasized her point.


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## smguidotti (Jul 31, 2012)

thenrie said:


> I can understand that. *So, if it puts you on edge, don't post a response. * When you post a response to an honest question, regardless whether it's from a knowledgeable person or a neophyte, if all you say is "You're wrong", with a bit of sarcasm thrown in as Faye did, your response has no value whatsoever, is a waste of space on the forum, and serves no purpose other than to let everybody know that you're pretty smart. My point is simply that if you're not going to help, just stay out of it. Be nice, or at least courteous.
> 
> Now _that's_ what puts me on edge. I guess I should have followed my own advice and just let it go. :wink:


So I assume by your logic you never get angry and snap at people and consequently say things that are frankly mean?  I highly doubt that lol


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

there is no "force" happening in this picture:










and from my perspective, it shows the rider working with the horse in a careful and communicative way, letting the horse work at and figure out what is wanted. I see this as a great step in the process of teaching this horse to back up lightly. There is drape in the rein and the horse is putting his own head back by choice, not because he is being yanked back. he's working at it . . . upstairs.

I mentioned the use of "twirling" the horse's head on the end of its' neck as an assist in softening the horse, and the ideal of having the horse back with its' legs in pairs. However, nowhere did I say they were doing it "wrong". That would be harsh and discouraging. I do not think that horse is in any way suffering in the hands of those two ladies.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

faye said:


> Thenrie, - i'm not sure who made you the post police.


Your ballot must be lost in the post:wink:


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