# Trail horse hates arena work - push him or no?



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Very brief history- I'm riding an 11 year old paint horse gelding that belongs to my friend, NOT as a trainer, but she in a middle aged beginner and I am a younger, more advanced rider so naturally I do a bit of tuning up for her when I ride, to keep the gelding's skills up. I usually ride once or twice a week, and she rides him on trails once or twice mid-week.

Now this gelding doesn't have any specialized training- he was bought as a 'ranch' horse and does know the basic w-t-l, back, sidepass (ish), disengage, but that's all. No lead changes, and his lope is rough, but we've been working on it. He has a tendency to get a little discombobulated at the lope, and cross fire, but he is improving with hill work and lots of circles. His saddle is professionally fitted and the chiro says he's all good, so any cross firing is all training, so it will hopefully just be a matter of time before he gets it. When he first arrived he crowhopped into his lope because he was so badly balanced, and his trot was tooth-jarring, but we've straightened the trot and like I said, that lope is OK, but does need a little work. All of that was done in our 'arena', which is actually just a 1 1/2 acre rectangular grass pasture.

Anyways, here is my question. He is a PHENOMENAL trail horse. Will walk through or over anything, dogs don't bother him, cars can zip past and he doesn't even bat an eye, he'll pony another horse, follow, lead, whatever. He pretty much has cruise control- point and go, whatever speed to ask, for as long as you ask, and he's ready to go out again when you get back. We're currently riding him on a loose rein, neck reining, in a jr. cow horse, dog bone, and he's a dream to ride. 

But when you put him in the 'arena', his training goes down the drain and is a trainwreck. When we first bought him, he'd pin his ears and crowhop if asked to do anything more than walk around, and once you got him into a trot, you felt like your bones might break from how rough and uncoordinated it was. Forget a lope- if you did get him to lope he'd either bolt, or grab the bit in this teeth and completely ignore you until he got to the gate. He'd only turn if you were putting a LOT of leg aids on, and direct reining him- and even then sometimes he'd just brace against you and turn the opposite direction anyways. I was APPALLED by his behavior, since when we went to try him out, and out on the trail, he was lovely. His owner is not able to ride this kind of stuff out, so I started riding him regularly myself. My original thought was pain, but after having his teeth checked and the chiro out, we were satisfied that he is arena sour. So, after a LOT of work, I've finally got him working pretty nicely in the arena, in a snaffle anyways. W-T-L, ****y face but at least listening to me, and not trying to stop at the gate or bolt for no reason. I can tell hates every second of it though. Put him back out on the trail, or even give him the idea that he's going out on the trail, and he's perky, excited to get going.

So here's my question. Should I be continuing to work him in the 'arena' even though he clearly hates it? Obviously when he was being a total snot it was necessary so he didn't feel like it was a something he could get away with, but now that he's going ok, should I just stop 'torturing him' and ride him out on the trails? I'd originally planned to do most of his trot and lope work in the arena and just walk on the trails, but it's a fight almost every time. If I take him to the grassy stretch on the trails though, he's happy to walk, trot, lope, whatever and each gait is drastically better because he isn't fighting me and uptight. Or do I need to keep working him in the arena and 'make' him be more versatile? My head is telling me he NEEDS to be as perfect in the arena as the trail, but then I'm just not sure how necessary that is if he's so great out on the trails. But this is a hole in his training right? He's definitely making progress in the arena, but now that he's working OK, is it alright to just visit the 'arena' work maybe once a month instead, to make sure he knows he needs to listen? I don't want him to be lacking training, but I don't know what else to do to help him improve at this point. He gets plenty of rest time in the arena so he doesn't associate it with work (he LIVES in that pasture), we don't always w-t-l in there- some times I just let him bum around, and we always end well. Often we do a little arena work then head out on the trails as a reward, or do trails then the arena. It makes no difference to him. He still hates the arena.

How much arena work is enough, I guess is what I'm asking. Is it OK for him to just be a trail mount, or am I doing him a disservice by not working through this with him even more? If I have to, I'll do more with him in there, but I ride him for fun, not to be his trainer- and dealing with him in the arena, especially at the beginning, just honestly is not any fun at all.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

If it were my horse, we'd work on it. 

It is very possible that he was over-worked in an arena and some time and has some very sour memories from it. However, that is NOT an excuse for him to behave badly. He should still listen to you, even if he's not happy about it. 

Of course, do a combination of both arena work and trail riding. One possible idea is you can always start your ride in the arena, and then when you get him listening to you nicely, you take him out of the trail. Some horses are super smart and realize the "reward" they get for good behavior. He might shape up pretty quick. 

But that's just me. If my horse has a problem with something, we work on it. Yes, there's a certain science of "picking your battles" so I probably won't ask him for the world while in the arena, but again, you should still be making positive progress in the right direction.

Or another idea, why don't you set up some trail obstacles inside the arena? Give him something to do.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I had an older mare who was just a great trail horse and seemed to enjoy the trails. She hated ring work so I would do some "schooling" while out on the trails if there was a space available. She did well with that type of schooling and we got along. She was a camp horse before and I guess just sick and tired of carting kids around.
I decided that since she was so good on the trails then that's what we would do. After some time we did do a little schooling and since we were doing just what we did out on the trails she was much better with it ( and I think having only one rider helped), but I could tell she would never be a horse that took to it and at her age (18) as far as I was concerned she didn't have to. As long as we could do some when I wanted that was enough for me.
So, I guess if this horse is good for his owner and she is happy (and safe) riding the trails, maybe do this for a while and try some schooling at a later date.
I wonder if he got away with this bad behavior in the past and got out of doing the work that he didn't like. He should do some arena work if you want him to without the bad behaviour. Can you do some schooling out on the trails, leg yielding, transitions, flexing and bending, turns on the haunches, forehand etc? Then do some in your schooling area and he might be much better at it.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

What are the owner's riding interests? If it's trail, I'd say let sleeping dogs (or would it be horses in this case?) lie and leave well enough alone -- it sounds like this horse has that down pat. If she wants to do both arena work and trail then you'll have to come up with a scheme that makes at least some ring work tolerable for the horse.

Also, a couple of other thoughts on this: 

I think it would be quite natural for a lot of horses that were raised in an open environment (ie out in pasture, working on a ranch, etc.) to appreciate trail over ring work. 

I also think the job needs to fit the horse (and not the horse made to fit the job) so, just as happens with people, it can really suck if you're stuck in a job that's not a good fit for you either mentally, emotionally or physically and then the next thing you know you "attitude" just starts popping up and getting in the way.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks guys. Beau, that's what I've been trying to do- use trails as an incentive for him to do well in the arena. It definitely works better than doing trails, then arena, but it doesn't really help his attitude much. I do like the idea of setting up obstacles in the arena- I think his big issue with arena work is that he thinks it is entirely pointless. He has to REALLY be pushed for effort, and 'drags' himself along if you'll let him. On the trail he has every big of impulsion you could ask for. It literally feels like he is sulking in the arena! I like the idea of obstacles for him. Maybe if he sees a point in arena work, he'll at least tolerate it a little more. I DO want him to learn to at least relax in the arena, because if they ever sell him, arena vices are a major issue for some people. 

He'll do whatever you ask him to on the trails and luckily they're wide and smooth, so I do a lot of schooling out there with him, but he's pretty perfect. His lope is a little speedy, but he's really starting to use himself and he'll disengage, circle, do serpentines, woah from ANY speed immediately, etc. I think he just loves being out and seeing things, as his whole demeanor changes on the trail. Chevaux, I think you have a good point in that, with the type of training he's had, he probably just feels better in the open with a job. He was used for all sorts of stuff at his old home, from fixing fences to working the cattle a bit (he LOVES cows and is hilariously excited when he sees them if we're out) but I am not sure that they did any arena work with him at all. This owner before them was a younger teenaged girl, who I think did rodeo events with him, so maybe at that time he was overworked in the arena and between that and the lack of arena work afterwards, the problems has been avoided and left to 'stew' into what it was when we got him.

He was bought for my friend strictly as a trail horse, and that's all she really cares to do, so from that aspect it doesn't matter how he acts in the arena. I actually don't like arena work either. But like you Beau, I just don't like the idea of ignoring a problem. 

I think what I might do is set up obstacles, then back off of arena work to just a time or two per month, and insist on a NICE ride those times- but not do arena work every time like I have been. I think I've been expecting him to suddenly enjoy arena work, and that just isn't going to happen for him. Obedience is good enough. It's a far cry from what he was doing at the beginning, anyways! xD


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

it really depends on you, and what you want to ultimately do with this horse.

the hosre I am leasing hates arena work. hates it. he sucks back and goes through all kinds of girations to avoid going very fast, or then dodges forward. and even if he is going well, you can tell he hates it.
on the trail, he has his ears forward, and though I know he'd rather be at home in the field, he does his job pretty darn well on the trail and is 10 times more forward.

I finally just gave up on arena work. he hates it, so I hate it.
part of his reason is from the years of arena work he did before I ever came into his life. and the other is that he has slightly dropped fetlocks that make working in deeper footing uncomfortable for him. 

could the footing have anything to do with his attitude?


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I'm glad I'm not the only one with this issue! It's insane what a difference there is. If I wasn't the one saddling him I'd think he was two different horses. For a trot in the arena, you have to SQUEEEEEZE, tap, SQUEEEEEZE, and before I even got him to that point- I had to reinforce him with an over-under or a tap with my whip at the girth a time or two, because he was utterly ignoring me. Out on the trails, no matter where we are, you hardly have to even place pressure with your leg and he's off at a lovely little cowhorse jog. Absolutely crazy. He's getting lighter in the arena, but I'd still call him pokey and sluggish. On one of our worst, first rides, he refused to move, I insisted on forward, he gave me 4 good crowhops, dove into a trot, then bolted and nearly unseated me. He's WAY better than that now, just a little dead to leg aids in the arena and usually needs a reminder that I'm dead serious about moving forward. Then he's ok. He travels about 90% of the time with his ears pretty much pinned though, while in there, regardless of what we're doing.

I wouldn't think that the footing affects him. He has rather unfortunate hindquarters (not BAD just very small for his size, but great legs) with posty legs, so even his best trot is nothing like their other gelding's, but the 'arena' pasture is made of the same dirt and grass as on the trail. We also go over asphalt, dirt, gravel, and mud on the trail and he doesn't really change his way of going, so I sort of doubt that is the problem.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Have you tried long lining him in the arena? That way you could possibly establish some control, and show him you expect him to work whether it is his favorite thing or not, and use a bit of trail as a reward. 

My endurance mare never liked arena work, BUT, she always did as I asked, with her ears pinned and he nostrils wrinkled.....she would shake her head, the do your command. She did that in the trot out at the vet check, too!


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

The same here with my boy. He is fantastic in trails, but, as a former lesson horse for beginners (and overworked at that), he despised working in an arena. I helped him with that by keeping arena work short, riding in the trails whenever we can and by making arena fun for him - he is very bored by simple flatwork, so we started jumping (he really loves obstacles and I feel they give him a motivation, a reason to go), and also switching between short, but efficient exercises and a good, fast canter on a free rein and me in 2 point - he enjoys that a lot. That way, by finding what he finds enjoyable in the arena, his attitude has changed drastically and he is now much better and happier in the arena, although he still has more impulse in the great outdoors.


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

I hink your plan at post #5 is an excellent one, and the point you brought up about him being SAFE and obedient in the arena is the most important one. Even if his current owner never works him in the confines of an arena he should know how.

Remember to set him up for success, ask very little of him at first and reward him profusely for offering correct behavior. Maybe even try doing some in-hand work instead of under saddle.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Endiku said:


> For a trot in the arena, you have to SQUEEEEEZE, tap, SQUEEEEEZE, and before I even got him to that point- I had to reinforce him with an over-under or a tap with my whip at the girth a time or two, because he was utterly ignoring me. Out on the trails, no matter where we are, you hardly have to even place pressure with your leg and he's off at a lovely little cowhorse jog.


My younger horse is like this. Very forward and "wants to go" on the trails, but lazy in the arena. 

Simply put: Don't tolerate it. 

I ride with a whip when I ride in the arena. I don't mind that he's laid back but I don't want to have to work extra hard to keep him moving. That's not my job. It is HIS job to keep moving at the pace I have requested. 

If he does not move off briskly into the gait I have asked, or if he changes his speed without me telling him (usually slows up), he will get a hard CRACK with the whip. I'll let him go a couple strides, and then bring him back to whatever he was doing originally, then ask again and give him an opportunity to respond well. If he does, we move on, if not, he gets cracked with the whip again and we try again. If they jump forward from the whip, that's okay. They'll soon learn it's easier to just do what you asked in the first place. 

Key point is to never end on smacking them with the whip. You always want to end with them giving you a correct light response. It's amazing how quickly they figure it out, after doing it a few times. 

It's okay for a horse to be laid back. Not okay for the rider to always be "nagging" them to keep their pace.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

My excellent trail horse would do 20 min of schooling in an arena then totally shut down. OK, when sand was being brought in for a new arena I decided to not fence it in. We'd always ride to the side to the far end then "enter" as tho passing thro a gate. Always exited the same place. It worked! I not only save a pile of money but he no longer shut down after 20 min. When he knew we were done, he'd stroll to the "exit", turn and face away from it for half a minute then walk out.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

At 11, he's still pretty young, enough that one day someone, if not his present owner, would like to work on her riding by being in an arena.

So yes, I wouldn't leave him to trails only.

But not being alpha-type myself, my approach is always to get my horses to _want_ to do whatever it is we're doing. Your horse doesn't see arena work at "pointless" any more than the trails have a "purpose." But somewhere, he's learned it's a bad place to be.

I admit changing a horse's attitude can take a lot of patience! And time you may not have. But I'd start with short sessions, probably ground work, just some pleasant-as-possible moments within the arena, and build from there. A companion horse always helps, especially if your horse can watch a happy horse being schooled.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I see several things going on here. 
First, you said that he is a middle aged "beginner". Horses started late have the idea that being worked is an option, not a job. 
Second, you said that he is a good trail horse. PLEASE don't use the word "phenomenal" to describe a horse that bucks, bc it simply isn't true.
DH has gone round with me training Sweet Cup&Cakes bc he thinks that the arena work BORES him. I believe that boredom and tedium grinds off the sharp edges on any horse and makes them better.
Third, it is NOT for him to JUST be a trail mount. Good trail horses are worth their weight in gold bc you can plan your free time and come back in one piece...and then drive from camp to the local Pizza Hut for dinner, and let the other diners take in your "aroma." =b
I will give this horse the benefit of the doubt that he may have been overworked in an arena. Why don't you teach him new things in the arena? Does anybody have a giant Jolly ball? You could teach him to push it around and play a game of soccer with even just one other rider. Does this horse know lateral movements? Could you groundtrain new skills and translate them to the saddle?
I think I would start with this:
Clinton Anderson's Downunder Horsemanship: Establishing Respect and Control for English and Western Riders: Clinton Anderson, Ami Hendrickson: 9781570762840: Amazon.com: Books
and see how he reacts. I suspect he will put up a fight and then get submissive and you will see that he isn't really arena sour, after all.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

That's what I've had to do to get him to the point where he is. I carry a short crop, and when he starts balking or being really sluggish, he gets a good thwack, I let him jump forward, then we try again. Then he started kicking out when I gave him a smack, and we had to deal with that- but eventually he got the idea. He is exceedingly stubborn o.o I'll probably just have to get even tougher with him and if I even had to give him a sharp nudge, just go ahead and correct him until he's moving off of soft cues again. Sure makes for an exhausting ride though, and a very ****y horse xD

Saddlebag, the biggest issue we had to face when I first started riding him in the arena was gate sourness, so I'm not sure that will work for him. He got pretty nasty when I made him move away from the gate, and any moment I wasn't paying 100% attention he'd dive towards it. I fixed that by letting him rest away from the gate and work by it.

I don't think it would hurt to do some ground work in the arena, but I'm not sure how much it will help. He's very solid with ground work pretty much anywhere, and that goes for the arena too. It's when I mount up and ask him to move his big lazy butt that he starts giving me trouble. I'll try a bit though, for sure, just to be sure.


Honestly my biggest problem is 1. time, since I'm only out there once or twice a week, and his owner lets him get away with a lot when she's riding him that I don't tolerate. and 2. He is not mine. She had come around to the fact that sometimes he needs punished, but she ABHORS when I over-under him or give him a good smack. She hasn't told me not to yet, but I have to be careful to tread lightly because her horses are my only access to riding at the moment since I'm in college, and in the end they are hers, not mine. 

I don't particularly want to teach him to play ball or anything useless, and I don't feel like he'd get anything out of that. I can teach him a few more things, but he already moves laterally in both directions, disengages, backs pretty solidly, etc, and I have to admit that I don't know how to properly teach him to do anything fancy like spin. My knowledge ends short of that since I'm really just a pleasure rider. The thing he needs most work on right now is balancing out his lope and slowing it down, but that's hard to do when he's fighting me and stringing himself out in the arena!

The other gelding, who she also owns, does not have this problem. He's happy to go wherever you take him. Arena, beach, pasture, woods, he really just doesn't care.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

There is NO useless horse training. ANY cross training is valuable bc it causes your horse to think about what his is doing, instead of going through the motions.
You said your horse didn't like arenas. I thought that a change of pace might spark an interest in him and a reason to be there.
Do what you want! Just offering ideas...


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks Corporal- sorry, not trying to make it sound like the idea is ridiculous, just not something I've ever considered doing. I don't have any sort of ball like that and have no idea how to teach him to play ball though to be honest.


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