# Chair Seat?!?!?! Grrr



## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

Before you started focusing on Chance, did you have a different saddle?

not really sure what to tell you to do to fix it. Maybe stirrupless riding?


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Yeah same saddle.


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## ann15603 (Jun 14, 2009)

sometimes it helps to watch other people ride and picture what they look like in your head. I always think of what my riding instructor looks like on her horse and it really helps


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I was going to ask the same thing appylover - a saddle can make a world of difference with rider position. It can make or break ya - so it is very important that when you choose a saddle, it works with you and for you, not against you.

I would love to see pictures if I could.

The main issue I think is going on here, is a weak core, weak leg muscles.

Can you get someone to put you on the lunge line? If you can, do it with no reins, no irons. Really focus on the walk. Don't go above this gait. First - arms out to the side of you, and really work on getting those legs under you. Heels must align with hips, hips must align with shoulders. 

Lower back strait - no curve - make sure you are on all 3 points *two seat bones, crotch*

Focus on pulling your tummy muscles in, holding them. Activate that core - strengthen it. Act like someone is reaching through your back behind you, hand comes out your belly button and grabs your belly and pulls it back through. 

*This is something I definately need to work on*

Make sure you hold this, while working on bringing those legs under you.

Another great trick - take your feet out of your irons, close your knee angle bringing your feet up towards your horses rump. Hold them for 10 seconds, release - repeat.

It is all about muscle memory.

Those are a few exercises you can do - I am sure others have great ideas


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Ill work on a couple of those things and get some pictures from the video so you can kinda get an Idea of what I look like.... not very good. lol! I never use to have a chair seat like I said before.. 

I will try those exercises and see how that goes tomorrow  Im planning on doing a lot of walk work and bending with chance tomorrow so I can do it then


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Okay Pictures this is horrible !

Okay mid-post








Yupp still bad xD








And the worst


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I don't think your saddle is helping you much.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Whats wrong with it. Lol its a Wintec 500 AP and I've never had a problem with my seat with this saddle.... 

I didnt use my Lifter pad today...maybe that was throwing me off more??


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I use a Wintec 500 A/P and I have to fight to keep my leg back. It doesn't help much. It isn't that great of a supportive saddle.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

oh lovely! so I need to work like 100x harder lol. 

So is it just the saddle thats doing it? Hows the rest of my position? I know you cant tell much from the quality.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Well, it appears that the saddle is pushing you back, and not helping your legs at all. My wintec does the same - you know what you can get that might help - go buy those velcro knee rolly thinggies.

I want to get the uber fat one's - but I am one who loves knee rolls because I find they aid you instead you being left to struggling on your own. 

But - really work on strengthening your legs - but again, your saddle should aid you and work with you, not hinder and work against you.


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## boxer (Feb 20, 2009)

I know how annoying that is, it's one of my big problems too. When I ride in a dressage saddle it is 100 time better but even in an all purpose I find concentrating on having my leg "under" me ( if that makes sense) helps a lot. Your saddle may be a little bit small for you.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Where would I get those knee rolls? Im not sure if I still have mine or not but, Im deff gonna work on my legs. I think my friend had them in her wintec because my positions a bit better in her saddle. 

I hope its not to small for me O.O! lol not ready to buy a new saddle yet  Ill see if I can still bit a whole hand behind me.


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## aynelson (Jun 13, 2009)

I would practice more 2 point position. Also go through stretching exercises as a beginning routine to your riding. You can take your ankle and stretch it up toward your buttock and then let the leg drop back into position. Also alternate between stirrups and no stirrups. This will help your leg position. From the photos, it also does not look like your horse is in front of your leg - Do you need more impulsion? Also, your horse is not on the bit. The energy we elicit in our horses does influence the leg position.

The saddle - Well....the rider's vertical is a sign of balance and you can be aligned when riding bare back. (There is a thought - ride more bareback!) You may stand to drop a few holes on your stirrup. You can try to secure better knee roles to the saddle and try to place the stirrup leather back a little on the bar with those little rubber things - but try not to adopt a tack-cover-up to a real problem. 

But, I must say this: You have BEAUTIFUL lines! You look very graceful and ballerina-like! Do you compete? Keep up the great work!


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Aw thanks Aynelson  I have shown before but not recently. Im hopeing to once I get everything sorted out .

Chance is only 5 so im basically getting the basics in and haven't worked on a head set yet. Hopefully getting some side reins and start working on it on ground first. And yes we deff need more impulsion lol were working on that as well. Here Ill give show the video. 

Let me know what you think. I noticed we need to do a lot of work on bending..

Video: 




and yes I did see saw gently at bit at the end because she was starting to lean on the bit. No comments on that please. I only use a french link so the most its doing it pulling back on her lips.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Are you sure you're sitting on your seatbones properly? At the walk, take your feet out of the stirrups and raise both legs way up and off the saddle so the only thing keeping you on is your seat bones. That's the most simple way I know to re-check your position. If you don't tip forward or back, you're good to go. If you do line up correctly, it probably is the saddle pushing you into a bad position. Even though it's the same saddle, maybe your horse has changed shape under it?


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I always mess around with putting my legs forward in front of me and I've never tipped... Im thinking its the saddle.. It may be this bad because I didnt use the lifter pad I normally use.. Ill get a video tomorrow using my lifter pad and see what you guys have to say. 

Im still curious where you can buy the knee rolls. Are we talking about the ones that go UNDER the flap?? Because I cant find them anywhere and I believe I got rid of mine.

Ill keep working on the exercises you mentioned and see if they help


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I would check that to make sure you have the right size gullet in that saddle while you're at it. If your horse recently muscled up around the withers, the saddle might be a little higher up front and pushing your legs forward.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I have a post with my saddle fit in the tack section.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

You can get the knee roll thinggies from tack stores, they usually have them - if not they might beable to order them. I know I've seen them on ebay.

I know www.classicsaddlery.com sells them.

Check Dover and Stateline. Usually places where they sell wintecs will sell wintec accessories.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Lol do you actually call them Knee rolls?! **** Im trying to search everywhere for them.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Gosh I don't know - maybe Wintec Knee Blocks?


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

AH! They are called Flexiblocks.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

lol! okay well I found some but I think there really small? Heres the link what do you think.. would that be good enough? 
These: 
Wintec Replacement Flexi Block - Statelinetack.com

I also found these but there for close contact.. and Idk how to choose the size..
http://www.doversaddlery.com/product.asp?pn=X1-15397&ids=555186941


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Ok, you may think I'm crazy here, but I think its because your heels are too far down. You probably didn't look like you had a chair seat before because many english riders come forward in their body to compensate for their feet going forward. It actually kinda starts opposite, where riders come forward and are told to put their heels down so they can find some kind of balance, even though its incorrect. When you started doing more with Chance, your posture probably came up, but your heels are still down.

I rode hunters for years and was always told "heels down", by the time I was 15, I started spraining ankles like crazy, I was a master with ace bandages and couldn't figure it out. When I started with a new trainer, I was surprised when she told me to take that weight out of my heels, that instead, match the angles of the knee, ankle, and hip, all of the angles close together for a 2. position. My ankles were "over flexible" giving them little support at the slightest offset of my balance. If you look at your picture, your angles are way off, think about it, if you are actually sitting straight and push your heels down, where will they go? Forward. 

They always say that you should be standing over a horse instead of sitting on the horse, that if the horse vanished into thin air, that you should land solidly on your feet. Try standing on the ground and pointing your toes in the air, I would be impressed if you could balance properly on just your heels.

I would say, sit evenly on your 3 points, pull your legs under you and don't be afraid to let a little weight fall into the ball of your foot. 

I would try this before buying things for your saddle. I will try to get some pictures explaining in further depth if you like.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I would love to see some pictures, thats REALLY interesting. Its become such a habit I dont even think about my heels anymore.. ill give that a try.. hmm.


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## Taylor (Jun 7, 2009)

Usually your stirrups are too short when you have a chair seat. It looks like your lower leg is drifting forwards. Which is putting the back of your calf on and pushing you back onto your seat bones. 
You want to bring your toe in slightly this will allow your leg to come back underneath you. You also want to consentrate on using the inside of your calf to squeeze not the back of your calf , twisting your toe out and using your heal. 
You want to have weight on your pelvic bone as well as your seat bones so your knee should lay against the saddle without a gap. But also not pinching. Make sure as you post that you are keeping contact with your calf that it is your leg is not braced. You want your leg in two parts your lower leg on the horse touching. and your knee to your hip following your horse. So you need more give in your ankle and knee. You should have some give and movement.
Think about how much your horses sides and body moves when troting. . . your knees and ankles have to allow the movement so they can be steady and appear still.


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## aynelson (Jun 13, 2009)

From the video: he is certainly not going forward enough. I use the training scale model from classical dressage - I think of a pyramid, the base is rhythm, then is suppleness, the contact, then impulsion, then straightness, then collection. He has great rhythm and suppleness - you are certainly ready for contact and impulsion! 

Headset is often a tricky subject - I don't think we should set the heads of our horses - being "on the bit" is a manifestation of a horse being through and collected. Sometimes people tie their horses into this false collected appearance - ie headset. These horses are stiff, tense, and actually in pain. 

You have super potential! Have you dropped your stirrups any? Can you borrow a different saddle and check your position in that? I forgot, do you take lessons? Do you have a friend who can give you lunge lessons? These are great ways to test your lower leg! Have fun and keep us posted!!!


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

try holding onto the pommel of the saddle, lift both ur legs into the air and wiggle ur bum around until u feel ur seat bones
once uv found ur seat bones lower ur legs and they _should_ be in the correct position and remind yourself all the time


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

Try this

A friend of mine ties her stirrups to the girth - this prevents the stirrup moving forward and helps with lower leg position.

She is a PSG Dressage rider - so no amateur - who knows what she is doing and trains her own horses from green broke all the way up to PSG


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Hey Nutty, I was discussing the issue with the saddle maker/fitter in the area - and she was saying that A/P's are notorious for not aiding the riders form when in the saddle - aka "chairseat"

She said beacuse the stirrup bars are placed more forward on the saddle - which creates the leg issue.

She said All Purpose Saddles really mean No Purpose Saddles - they are great for absolute beginners, but should merge to a CC and a Dressage Saddle when they improve in their riding skills.

So to the OP - no matter how much you try to work on your leg, the saddle will not aid you at all due to how the A/P's are made. That is why I have a difficult time getting my leg properly under me, even though I've been riding for yyeeaaarrrsss.


That tying the leathers to the girth sounds interesting!


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

Hi MIE

Here is a selection of trees first a dressage tree , then an event type tree , last a a/p tree - you can see the position of the stirrup bars without the rest of the saddle, it also gives you an idea about the different shape of the saddle other than just the front arch, a saddle can only fit the horse correctly if the tree is the correct shape.


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## ShannonSevenfold (Oct 11, 2008)

wow, Nutty. That's really interesting to see.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Interesting. I think Its time to switch saddles because I give up, I've been working on it for the past few weeks and theres very little change. 

Im hopeing to stay with wintecs, what would u guys recommend?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

If you're just looking for synthetic with adjustable gullet, take a look at Throwogoods. (doesn't look like it's spelled right but looks close) The Wintec AP also put me in a chair seat. The Thorowgood fit me and my horse much better. They have adjustable gullets and a few models to choose from to fit your horse. Dover Saddlery always has them on the closeout section for $399. Not sure why their on closeout since they keep selling them.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Oohh...saddle shopping! Good incite on the AP saddles too...makes me want to sell mine and invest in an actual dressage saddle, now, because that's what I want to ride mainly anyway...but I like the AP because I can jump in it too; maybe I will just have to look for a dressage saddle...uggh! I'm just getting back into english riding, with my new Appy...


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

I have two tricks that work for me to avoid a chair seat. I will change the length of my stirrups (either shorter or longer depending on which feels better) and then concentrate on either opening my hips (for long stirrups) or pushing my knee DOWN (for shorter stirrups). If I try to pull my foot back, I end up pinching with my knees. These two "tricks" work well for me, and I am BAD about having a chair seat if I'm not careful.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

MIEventer said:


> Hey Nutty, I was discussing the issue with the saddle maker/fitter in the area - and she was saying that A/P's are notorious for not aiding the riders form when in the saddle - aka "chairseat"
> 
> She said beacuse the stirrup bars are placed more forward on the saddle - which creates the leg issue.
> 
> She said All Purpose Saddles really mean No Purpose Saddles - they are great for absolute beginners, but should merge to a CC and a Dressage Saddle when they improve in their riding skills.


The above is not right. CHEAP All Purpose saddles will have stirrup bars set too far forward, but quality ones will not. I rode Dressage in a Stubben and Passier VSS and got nothing but 8s and 9s for my position through Training 4. It was never difficult to keep my leg back.

It's also a cop-out. Your saddle should NOT "put" you in position. You should be able to ride "right" no matter what saddle you're riding in. I have no problem keeping my leg back under my rear in any saddle, with any stirrup position, and any stirrup length. It's all about muscle development and muscle memory, and just paying attention. Your saddle can "fight" you, but you should be able to "win" :wink:.

The right stirrup placement also depends on the person. When the saddle is on the horse, measure from the middle of the stirrup bar to the deepest place in the seat (you can roll a pencil or marker down the pommel to find the deepest part of the seat). That measurement should be within 1/2" of the length from the ball of your foot to the back of your heel (with your boots on). People with small feet but average to large hineys will have a hard time finding just about any saddle that fits their rear AND has the correct stirrup placement for their foot length. Add in thigh length, inseam, and height and it's no wonder very few people enjoy riding in the same saddles, lol.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Thanks everyone im hoping for something with a changeable gullet. Ill take a look at what was suggested. 

I do kinda want to try tieig the stirrups to the girth.

I think my saddle is way to small now anyways.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

What do you think?

Thorowgood Teqnic Close Contact Saddle - Dover Saddlery.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

That's a nice looking saddle - I've been trying to find the Thorowood T6 CC model.....but all I can find is the dressage - but I am hesitant with the price....meaning what quallity are they really. I like the look of Bates, but they are waaay out of my price range, even used.

Look at the Collegiate Convertable - they have the changeable gullet system as well. And don't forget the Wintec CC.

I see that Pessoa makes models with the changeable gullets now, and there are more brands are now coming out with the same system in their saddles.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> It's also a cop-out. Your saddle should NOT "put" you in position. You should be able to ride "right" no matter what saddle you're riding in


I disagree. I have heard time and time again by professionals stating that you must try out many different saddles that are offered out there today, because each one suits particular body types. What works for one, does not work for another - and I've heard time and time again that your saddle should HELP you, not HINDER you. 



> . I have no problem keeping my leg back under my rear in any saddle, with any stirrup position, and any stirrup length. It's all about muscle development and muscle memory, and just paying attention. Your saddle can "fight" you, but you should be able to "win" :wink:.


I am not a professional saddle maker, nor fitter. I am quite daft where saddles are involved - but after speaking with a friend in B.C who is a professional Saddle Maker and Fitter, who was trained by Schleese himself, this is what she says about A/P saddles:

"AP saddles are usually for the beginner type rider. Out of all of the customs that I sold, I sold 1. The person was determined to have one, so she got one. 
Most serious riders specialize their saddle to suit their needs. An AP is a dressage saddle seat with shorter and slightly more forward flaps. Just enough to let you get away with a bit of dressage, but will hinder you the higher up you want to go, and the same with jumping. Just enough for the "weekend rider" but not correct enough for the serious jumper.

Like I said, AP is a dressage tree with a shorter and more forward flap. Just enough to hinder both but just enough for the occasional use to keep someone happy. But it is going to try to put your leg out front and short in a dressage saddle that has a tree/stirrup bar placed to put your leg underneath you and straight. The seat is deeper vs one that is flatter and easier to get in and out of for jumping. The angle of the the hip is meant to be more closed for jumping vs open for dressage. Shortening the stirrup too much in a dressage saddle pushes your butt backwards in the saddle. Yet that is what you are doing in an AP when you jump."


Again, I am not a pro, nor have I ever taken classes. I've heard those words from other Saddle Maker/Fitters as well - but what may work for you luvs2ride, is not working for me especially - and obviously Horses Are Forever.

My saddle is fighting against me, not helping me. It's time to move on from the A/P and merge into a CC and a Dressage. No matter how hard I try to get my leg under me, it's just not working. Now when I get into a Dressage, I have no problem because of how a dressage saddle is created. So maybe you are correct about lengthening the leathers. 

I do agree about muscle memory, I stress that all the time to those who loose their lower leg over fences - but when you are in a saddle that alters your pelvis and your hips - no matter how hard you try, you wont succeed because your saddle is working against you, not with you.


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

If a saddle alters your pelvis and hips, then it's not properly balanced and/or the right size.

I am a horse massage therapist (no longer practicing) and a trained saddle fitter. Those that say AP = NP are saddle fitters who are dealers or just plain snobs. 

No, an AP won't take you through GP Dressage, nor will it allow you to jump 3'+. However, they are very comfortable and secure saddles for those who pleasure ride, ride lower levels, or beginning riders. A GOOD AP saddle that fits the rider and is balanced properly can and will facilitate a good position.

I agree, a cheap AP is worthless. I agree, an unbalanced AP is worthless. However, a quality AP saddle that is balanced is a valuable piece of tack to have. 

There is a reason saddle makers put out these saddles. If they weren't well loved, they wouldn't have such a loyal following. You'll have to pry my DH's Stubben AP from his cold, dead hands, lol. He has a perfect classical position in that saddle, and jumps nicely. My daughter and her friends fight over her Stubben Parvizal (VSD) for jumping and flat lessons.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I do see what you mean about the importance of a good A/P versus a cheap. I do like Stubbens. I see Stubben has quite a few models of A/P's, that vary quite differently in the stirrup bars and flaps.

My Wintec 500 A/P is a cheap A/P - it's gotta go. I need to upgrade, and I need help!


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## luvs2ride1979 (Nov 9, 2007)

My favorite is Passier though. I prefer a flatter seat in the middle, so the Stubben scooped seat isn't as comfy to me. Passiers have a flatter seat in the middle with a lower pommel, but with still a nice slightly higher back. The Passier I rode in before was a friend's and she's not selling, lol. I would LOVE to find an 18.5-19" Passier AP in a medium-wide tree, but all the ones I come across are $600-800, even in "fair" condition, :-(. If you ever see one, PM me with it!

Anyhow, my point about position was that the saddle shouldn't have to "hold" or "put" you in place like so many of these ridiculous Dressage saddles. One should be able to have a quiet leg, long stirrup, and proper position even in a pancake flat, no knee roll CC saddle. The stirrup bar can be forward or back. English leathers and stirrups are made for freedom of movement, so you can put your leg wherever you'd like.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Well considering I do jump around 3' my Wintec AP isnt gonna do it with the way its restraining me from a good position. I have very still legs so even when jumping where ever my leg is on flat its there when jumping so I know its not me swinging them forward. The only time my legs slip forward is the stupid landing 

What do u think about the Wintec Close Contact??? I was considering it but, I wasnt sure if it the the wintecs all together that have this effect. Im a little iffy about the price on that Thorowgood. Im hoping someone will come on that has one. Im really happy it has the changeable gullet so that a deff plus because Chance changes way to much lol!


MIEventer hopefully this post will help u find a new saddle as well! If u find any good ones you should deff post them on here. I really dont want to pay over 1000.. if that.. because I know im gonna out grow it or something. 

How much would a Wintec 500 AP 16 seat go for. If Im getting a new saddle I need to sell this one first  *excited* 

Ill keep looking at saddles especially some mentioned above!  I just cant decide if I want brown or black. lol Ill post some im interested in 

thanks everyone for the help!!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I'm putting my Wintec 500 A/P with the whole gullet change kid, leathers and irons up for $400.00. 

I'm looking at the Wintec Close Contact as well - price range, it seems to fit my budget. I know of people with the Thorowgood on another forum who really like them, but I don't know how well they'll hold up for the sport I do.

I am looking at the Collegiate Convertable too - I like the looks of it.

What I specifically need, is a saddle that is narrow up from and wide at back. Narrow meaning - to accomodate his withers, and then wide to accomodate his broad back. It has to have an arch to it as well - where the wintec a/p does not.

So I have to get a Close Contact. I have allot of searching to do. So we can help one another!


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Okay I really like this saddle 2! Collegiate Convertible Diploma Close Contact Saddle - Dover Saddlery.

But I may take it out on a test ride just for fun.. but if I do really like it its gonna be a while before I can afford it.

How come the Thorowgood couldn't hold up?? Just trying to get as much info as possible. My mom likes the looks of it  I wish I could try it though. 

Ill take a look at the Wintec CC.

I was thinking about putting my Wintec up for 450, I bought it for 550. I will give them the Wide and Narrow Gullets I have.. Im just barrowing the Medium I have it in it now.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Just a thought .. If I do get the wintec.. I can keep my gullets... HMMMM 

What are peoples opinion on the Wintec CC??


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

I have a wintec CC. Unfortunately i was never able to ride in it 
I did sit in it and it seemed to put me in a better position than my previous saddle, but that was just on a stand and not on a horse.

Ovation saddles now come with a gullet system. 

I think your best bet would be to go to a tack shop and sit in the saddles that you like online.
Don't forget that you can always go used and possibly get a better quality saddle.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

The only saddles in my price range here are Wintecs and there almost all AP or dressage. So Im kinda stuck with going online. 

How do you like the Ovation and are they less then $1000


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

personally, I've always found that AP saddles (and trust me, I've ridden in MANY) don't help you develop the correct position. I love my Courbette Vision close contact saddle because it has knee rolls and thigh blocks and helps your leg become secure. 

I just don't like AP saddles. at all. And I can do dressage in my CC, no problem


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I love this Collegiate "Alumni" Convertible Close Contact Saddle - SAVE $425 + FREE Offers ($225 value) - Collegiate Convertible Saddles - E-Z Change Gullet System - SAVE $100's + FREE Incentives! its basically the same as the other one but this one has a free bridle ****! 

But If I get brown I need to search for brown leathers...


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Okay right now I have a size 16 saddle.... I was thinking with going with a 17 just incase I grow more... Or would I just be better off going with a 16.5


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

The ovation I had was very comfortable even for it being too small for me.
New they are right around $1,000, though I'm sure you can find a used one for cheaper.

For seat size, I'd go to a tack store and let them measure you. You may be a 16.5 in one maker and a 16 or 17 in another.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

I'll look around  thanks 

Ill sit in a few saddles and see how it goes.. this is gonna be harder then I thought


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

That Thorowgood looks nice. I can't believe it's $299! I use my Thorowgood AP almost every day. Ring work, trail rides, long hunter paces. That cheap saddle rocks! I beat the crap out of that saddle and it holds up so well. I bought mine before they had adjustable gullets. I'm am totally in favor adjustable saddles. I love my Bates, but with all the non-ring work and weird weather, the synthetic saddle is so much less maintenance and it's very sticky. That saddle has saved my butt a few times when I'm sure I would have slipped off the leather one. The one you found looks much better for jumping. Mine's a little deep. I say try it!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Keep in mind Thorowgoods are not that resellable. So if the Thorowgood doesn't work out and you have to sell it - don't hold your breath. Yeah the $299 is an excellant price, but try to find someting that is better quallity and resellable if it doesn't work out.

Collegiate Convertable, Wintec CC, Pessoa...etc, etc..


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Thanks!! Good to hear because I really liek the looks of it!! If I can sell my Wintec for $400 I can get that plus gullets and still have some extra money left!! 

Im not worried about color of saddle yet, It shouldnt matter in lower lvl hunter classes will it.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Appylover, are you looking to sell your Wintec CC?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I think they only come in black. Brown would probably look like crap in a synthetic saddle. I tried both Wintec and Thorowgood when I was looking for a saddle that I could get wet and beat up. I was lucky to know people who owned both. The wintecs put me in horrible positions. The Thorowgood fit me like a glove. Then again both me and my horse are tall and skinny, so it was kinda made for both of us. I'd sell you my Bates, but it's probably more than you want to pay. I just can't part with such a nice saddle for what it's probably really worth.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

Sorry MIE, I'm not going to sell it. I'm waiting until after the baby is born to ride in it.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

MBP - what would u sell it for?


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

MIeventer - I just read what you said about the retail sale... Thats a really good point... I like the collgait till, it just will take me a bit to save up 4 it.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

*Luvs2ride!*

I think I am going to sell my A/P for the Wintec CC model. If that doesn't work, at least I can sell.

BUT!!!! I took some pictures of my A/P on Nelson's back. I took a good look at the saddle while on his back, and I just cannot see those pockets anymore. Where they used to be, there just isn't any....?????? HUH?????

I just cannot see, what professionals are seeing - as to my saddle not fitting Boo?

Don't get me wrong, now that I know how poorly an A/P works for the rider, I want to get a CC - but I just cannot see how my saddle doesn't fit Boo's back *yes I know the width isn't that great, I had to find a happy medium to accomodate his broad back and his high narrow withers*

Tell me what I am not seeing here??





























*This picture taken from the back, I had him standing strait, but just as I went to take the shot, he turned to look at something on his left *
*side.*


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

You kinda lost me im really bad about saddle fitting.. what do u mean pockets??? I think im probably gonna go with the Wintec CC as well more in my price range  But if you get it before me let me know how you like it!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok - Nelson's back archs - like a banana. Due to he being between 16/18 years of age, and he is definately out of shape. So he has lack of muscle in his back as well.

Now, before when he was really out of shape, when I would put my wintec on his back, I could see pockets - meaning, light/space, between his back and the pannels of the saddle that should be makng contact with his back.

Look at the side shot of my saddle - see where the back of the flaps are, see that corner right where the pannel of the saddle is and the back part of the flap is- - - - that's where the pockets were. I was able to fit my fingers right between his back and the pannel of the saddle. 

That is why I mean by pockets. Now it seems, he's filled up some since I've been riding him 4/5 days a week.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

OKAY see!! Yeah it deff looks like he filled up! Thats great!


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## ILoveGeorgieMyPony (Apr 19, 2009)

I would suggest doing work without stirrups maybe, and make sure you're sitting on your seat bones 
Beautiful horse and nice riding though


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Thanks.  since half the people replying are saying their having the same problem, im gonna go with that its the saddle. But I will try some no stirrup work and see what that does.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Yeah, it's the saddle Horses Are Forever. It is working against its' rider. It is great for the "weekend Warrior" who wants to ride and play around with all area's of english riding here and there, but not for the serious rider.

It's time for the both of us to move on


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Yay! for graduating to a higher.. erm saddle level ! wow! haha! Im kinda proud to be able to say I need something more then a AP. Close Contact are good for jumping correct??


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Yep, Close Contacts are made for jumping. I've been looking at Eventing Saddles....and they look allot like A/P's - how odd?


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Eventing saddles are a lot like A/P's from what I've seen too, MIEventer. I think it's an A/P in disguise


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

How odd eh!!! Why would they design them like that???? Do they have more of a forward flap than a typical A/P? I see they have a deep seat like the A/P for more security in your tack while out on the cc course, which is very understandable - but........why make them so much like the unfunctional A/P?


I know you've already said - but what do you ride in on CC? What does Buck use? A typical CC with a flatter seat?


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

yeah because it's an "eventing" saddle it has a deeper seat for dressage and forward flaps for jumping....your typical A/P

I ride in a Courbette Vision for XC and Stadium. Sometimes for dressage on Uma because my medium tree Albion 2000 dressage saddle doesn't fit the medium wide Uma. 

Buck rides in all Amigo saddles. He is sponsored by them.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

OH MY GOODNESS! What a lovely saddle eventerdrew! I just went to www.tacktrader.com and searched for it - lovely! But, I have to go with something with an adjustable tree. 

I've been looking at Passier's and Schleese's - but they are waay out of my price range, even while I am working a full time and a part time job.

I wouldn't mind getting a tree made by Herme's Sprenger - but yeah, those are expensive as well.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

There is nothing wrong with the Wintec 500 AP saddle. An excellent quality saddle for the money. I have no problem keeping my position, nor have the dozens of people who've ridden my horse in it. People from beginner to GP. Everyone who's sat in it has commented about how comfortable it is.

Wintec has two AP saddles, the 500 and the 2000. They are completely different saddles. The 2000 doesn't fit me (or my horse for that matter). The 2000 tends to fit people with very 'boyish' figures...narrow hips. The 500 fits the 'womanly' figured person better...has a significantly wider twist, deeper seat, etc...

When I want to do flat work, I drop my stirrups 2 holes and while certainly not like sitting in a dressage saddle, it's still very usable.

The OP is going to have a chair seat issue regardless of the saddle she chooses at this time because of the basic flaws in her position.

First, she needs to sit in the deepest part of the saddle, instead of against the cantle. Then she needs to tip her pelvis back a bit and allow her lower back to soften. Then open her hips and drop her knee. Next, she needs to stop artificially pushing her heels down because what's happening is she's pushing the heel 'forward' in an attempt to put it down more. 

The saddle may not be a perfect fit for her, but it ain't that bad. She looks tall, which I am so I know there's plenty of billet there for her leg.

I agree with those that suggested she drop her stirrup length.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

MIEventer, if there is ever a time where you don't need a flexible tree i definitely recommend the Courbette Vision. i have the older version of the saddle which is the heaviest english saddle i have ever held! haha. but i love it. my friend has the current version and loves it compared to her old Bates Caprilli. I have converted 2 of my friends to the Vision so far.One has the old version and one has the new. they are great for wider riders like myself but lean people love them too!


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

MIE, ovation makes an eventing saddle with a changeable gullet.
I was going to get it, but it was out of my price range.

I had an ovation (a CC) and it was very comfy. It was just too small for me.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

An Ovation eh!?! Let me go have a lookg! Thanks appy!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

MIEventer, to evaluate saddle fit. do a half-hearted grooming job so there's a little residue left on Nelson's back. Use a white baby pad under the saddle. Right in it for awhile and then look at the underside of the baby pad to see if you have even patterns of dirt. Any clean area, other than directly over the spine, indicates a lack of proper contact with the horse's back. If he still has those pockets you mentioned, those areas will not be dirty.

While mounted, make sure you can fit 3 to 4 fingers vertically between the pommel and his withers. Sometimes a saddle just sitting on a horse's back loose changes dramatically once it has someone sitting on it.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

your welcome!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

MyBoyPuck, yeah that is what my friend who is a Saddle Maker/Fitter back in B.C has me do. She was trained by Schleese *sp* himself, and always goes by the sweat marks from the saddle pad.

My saddle bridges. Regardless - so it's gotta go. 

Bridging:










Bridging:











And absolutely not good at all. I used a Diamond Wool Wither Relief Pad under my Wintec....and the results were aweful.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Appy - do you know the name of the Ovation saddle with the interchangeable gullets?


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## barefoot (Jun 11, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> Yep, Close Contacts are made for jumping. I've been looking at Eventing Saddles....and they look allot like A/P's - how odd?


I have a Collegiate Senior Event saddle and it's definitely just an A/P.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Ah ok - good to know. Odd that Event saddles are A/P's - huh, go figure.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

LOL I found that funny  I noticed the looked the same as well... of course they have to put a name on them. 

I hope my saddle sells soon, going to the barn today and asking my BO if she knows anyone who needs a saddle  I have a feeling im probably gonna get brown so I can show in it as well, and it will match my bridle.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Well I found a saddle that I am interested in, but I don't know. I wrote back to the seller asking to see pictures of the panels to see their shape because I need non gusseted panels - and to see the underside of the saddle. 

It is a medium wide, and a 17 1/2" seat. Has front and rear knee blocks....but I am unsure if it is a CC or an A/P??? 

I am waiting for the other pictures - but here it is thus far:










It seems to have a nice arch to it?? But I do not have an educated eye to beable to decipher.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Hm that looks like the trail saddle I saw........ weird lol 

I could be wrong...


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Well, if it is an A/P I would agree with you  lol.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

LOL! this is so confuseing


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