# Western Dressage ??



## smrobs

Truthfully? I think it's a fad. Dressage is dressage and it is still dressage even if you are using a western saddle. From many of the videos I've seen of "western dressage" it is more trick training than actual dressage. None of those horses would be able to hold a candle to a real dressage horse. IMHO, the closest representation the western world has to dressage is reining.


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## Scoutrider

smrobs said:


> Truthfully? I think it's a fad. Dressage is dressage and it is still dressage even if you are using a western saddle. From many of the videos I've seen of "western dressage" it is more trick training than actual dressage. None of those horses would be able to hold a candle to a real dressage horse. IMHO, the closest representation the western world has to dressage is reining.


Agreed. At best, western dressage is just "normal" dressage in western tack. That being said, many videos I've seen of western dressage horses are not exhibiting the kind of qualities that are prized in well-trained "Traditional" Dressage horses. The debate over what constitutes "true" collection has been beaten to death on several other threads, but the definition and understanding of concepts like collection and engagement changes pretty radically from western disciplines to traditional dressage. 

I wasn't aware that western dressage was now a recognized USEF sport; I'd be curious to read up on that inclusion.


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## nrhareiner

Western Dressage = Reining. Really simple.


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## nrhareiner

Scoutrider said:


> I wasn't aware that western dressage was now a recognized USEF sport; I'd be curious to read up on that inclusion.


It is called reining and reining is recognized by the USEF.


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## Tasia

Western dressage is a trade mark owned by the creator, no real relation the dressage more of a money grab. Reining however is a good compairson to dressage


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## Scoutrider

nrhareiner said:


> It is called reining and reining is recognized by the USEF.


Lol, that I knew already. :wink: Personally, with the (relatively) long existence of reining recognition, why is something like "western dressage" needed? If someone wants more "D" dressage than reining offers, it's time to buy a shadbelly and a dressage saddle. 

I was under the impression, based on the OP's reference to USEF recognition, that the camp that considers western dressage to be separate from reining has gained recognition for western dressage as a separate discipline with the USEF. I was also under the impression that such discussion was rather controversial, but I don't follow the news that closely.


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## nrhareiner

It is not that easy to get USEF recognition. So I highly doubt that "western Dressage" has gained it. Took NRHA many many years to get it and work out all the details. There has also has to be enough of a following along with other requirements that must be met.


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## smrobs

Silly question Scout, but what is a shadbelly?


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## Scoutrider

smrobs said:


> Silly question Scout, but what is a shadbelly?


It's the style of coat worn for upper-level dressage competition. 

Shadbelly Dressage Show Coat - SHOW COATS - Women's Equestrian Show, Dressage, Shadbelly - & Sport Jackets


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## equus717

I have heard that it is really taking off down south. I know for me I think western style horse can do dressage just as well as the others. No they may not be able to float like on air like the TB's and others. Honestly dressage is just a really disciplined sport. I don't like tall horses. Shoot I might be selling my yearling because I am afraid that she is going to be close to 16 hands. 

I have the Dressage Exercises for horse and ride 101 and do it with Cutter. We only do the first couple of exercises. I don't ride English but I think Dressage exercises can help the western horses out quite a bit.


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## arkequestrian

Thanks for all the input, here is what I have found out so far...

"cowboy dressage" is the one that is trademarked and owned by an individual, but not western dressage

It is pretty impressive then if it takes that much to become recognised, thats pretty cool. The USEF sent me thier guidelines to judge, so that I can add Western Dressage to our dressage shows. It sounds to me like everything is getting off to a good start ? http://www.usef.org/documents/breeds/morgan/WesternDressage/JudgingGuidelines.pdf

I agree, that the lower levels are pretty basic, but thats dressage in general, the lower levels are just good riding, using a time tested pyramid of progressive skills. Personally, I think its great. To whatever level it achieves. If it helps riders learn how to develop a communication with their horses Im all for it. The majority of dressage riders in North America are riding under first level. That doesn't mean they work any less hard, or are not striving to improve. I beleive that traditional dressage is a journey, that you have to enjoy the trip, at all the stages. I would hope western dressage is the same.


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## bsms

This is becoming a pet peeve of mine. Equitation shouldn't be discussed as being independent of tack. 

You can ride a jump saddle like a dressage rider, but you will be fighting your gear. You can ride a dressage saddle over jumps, but you'll be fighting your gear. And the switch to a western saddle is even greater.

Ride on your seat pockets in an English saddle, and you'll hurt your horse, who will respond by hollowing his back and getting upset. Do the same in a western saddle - which distributes weight to the rear over a much larger area - and the horse will bring his hind legs under a bit in a modest form of collection.

A chair seat makes sense for cutting cattle. It isn't right for dressage. A leveraged bit can work fine with slack reins, but shouldn't be ridden with constant contact. You cannot separate the goals of a particular style from the equipment used and the style of riding itself.

Rather than running everything thru the blender, we ought to appreciate and respect the differences. The goal should be stew, not pureed mush. I don't have any desire to ride Dressage, but can appreciate and respect those who do. Western riding has its own history and traditions, and the tack is designed with that in mind. 

As has been mentioned, reining takes some of the principles and approaches of dressage and reinterprets them in light of western gear and history. It is true to the spirit of both. "Western Dressage" is, IMHO, an insult to both traditions while appreciating neither. 

Frankly, I think the folks pushing western dressage don't understand western riding very well. The explanation below reeks of condescension to western riders. It is as if we are all a bunch of idiots who can't even get our horses to stop and relax or to travel straight or turn well - all of which is bunk!


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## nrhareiner

Why is it that these people seem to want to reinvent the wheel? What he is saying and explaining is exactly what you get with any and all of my reining horses. They learn this with in the first few months. If a horse is not collected and relaxed and can not move every inch of their body you WILL NOT get what you see in a finished reiner. Subsequently this is the first thing that any quality reining trainer will teach a horse.

If you want a good score say in a turn (spine) you have to have collection, lateral movement, along with forward movement and you also must have everything else was talking about.


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## Hijack

What is the difference between western dressage and reining?


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## nrhareiner

From what I have seen very little. Different patterns and from what I have seen and read of the rules you ride with contact in a western bit which to me is a big no no.

Thing is it is nothing new if you can take a reining horse and do this. Granted any well trained horse can do just about anything.


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## nrhareiner

Here is him riding. I say drop that hand down where it should be and do it. I know I can on my reiners on a slack rein as it should be.


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## farmpony84

nrhareiner said:


> It is not that easy to get USEF recognition. So I highly doubt that "western Dressage" has gained it. Took NRHA many many years to get it and work out all the details. There has also has to be enough of a following along with other requirements that must be met.


I'm a little shocked but when I googled it I found the below link (This looks like it is breed specific to MORGANS?):

http://www.usef.org/documents/breeds/morgan/WesternDressage/JudgingGuidelines.pdf

They even have tests posted.

Western Dressage Tests

To be honost, I've always thought as reining as the "dressage" of western. I don't agree with the mentality that dressage is the elite of all riding/training and I never will. In my opinion western riding has always been a higher achievement, however I will admit that there are things that these dressage horses are doing that western horses just won't ever do.

Anyway... interesting...


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## Hijack

Oh dear..I want to put his hand lower and give that horse some slack. It'd be different if it was in a saddle but that can't be fun for the horse. There is a lot of difference in contact in a snaffle and contact like that in a curb.


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## nrhareiner

It is not that a western horse can not do these things it is just they have no need to do these things.

Just like most disciplines that you see at shows these days they started out from some type of working horse. Then they evolved into what you see now. As training improved feed improved vet care improved and as the breeding of these horses became more specific and improved so have the sport.


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## nrhareiner

Hijack said:


> Oh dear..I want to put his hand lower and give that horse some slack. It'd be different if it was in a saddle but that can't be fun for the horse. There is a lot of difference in contact in a snaffle and contact like that in a curb.


That is just it. They are trying to do something in western tack that was designed to be done in English tack. 


It is like saying I am going to go rope a cow in English tack and call it English roping or say with cutting.


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## smrobs

Scout, thank you for educating me about a bit more of the English world .

I don't like the looks of the horse in that video at all. It looks tense and the movements look pretty shoddy to me.

One thing I was thinking about the other day is the basest differences in English and Western riding that goes even beyond the tack and all that. Most folks who ride English; whether it be jumping or dressage or XC, want elevation and suspension in their horses. They want them to be what I consider "above" the ground. 

On the other hand, most folks who ride western want their horses flatter and lower, ready to suck down into the ground for a hard stop or a quick turn or in preparation for the force of a cow hitting the end of a rope. Taking a western horse and giving it that "above the ground" movement defeats the entire purpose of having a western horse.


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## bsms

His condescension is very irritating. I've had a whopping THREE lessons in western riding. 3! The first lesson, how were turns taught?

Three steps:
1 - Seat
2 - Leg
3 - Reins (if needed)

And I was told from lesson 1 (and in both following lessons) that the goal is for step 3 to be unneeded.

So this guy wants to show that in 'western dressage', you can turn a horse using your seat...right. I was doing that in lesson #1 of basic western riding. Not by tilting in, though, but by twisting the hip a little - basically just turn my body a little to look in the direction we are about to turn. Leg to tighten, if needed.

Also, he showed the 'western rider' moving the hip by leaning forward and pushing with the leg just in front of the horse's rear hip. Anyone do that? I don't. I move my leg back a couple of inches, but then, my leg is already a little forward of what would be appropriate for real dressage riding. I sure as heck don't lean way forward as if I'm trying to scratch my horse's hip with my heel.

Again, it comes across to me as someone with a dressage background who doesn't want to understand western riding...just look down on it. He ought to come out to Arizona and take a single lesson in western riding before commenting on how western riders do stuff. OK, he could probably stop in Arkansas and take a single lesson in western riding.

Reining, OTOH, uses some of the same concepts as found in dressage, but adapts them to the western tradition and tack. It accepts the history of western riding instead of rejecting it.


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## nrhareiner




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## Hijack

I love that video!


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## Fort fireman

i think we kinda need to look back in history alittle here and look at where western riding as we know it came from. The western saddle and the western style of riding we see know has evolved over the years. It all started with the mexican and Spanish Vaqueros. These were guys that were hired to work the land owners cattle. or what most of us would call "cowboys". Now these Spaniards derived this style of riding from a basis from dressage. That is what they were trained in because that is what was ridden in Spain. They took the best of the dressage stuff and applied it to working cows. Through the years some things have been added and somethings have been discarded. it was all what worked for working cows, and evetually you end up with what we know now as western riding. Then It got splintered up into the speacialty events and Specialized horses..
It looks like this fella is just trying to fix something that really isn't broken. If you watch anyone that really works in the old californio, vaquero style. you will see this typw of stuff. However it is stuff that applies to cow work.
This is kind of a cool link that explains the vaquero style far better than I ever could. You will see some of the stuff looks similar but it is geared toward working cows, and when I say working cows I mean reall working them. Not just cutting in a show or rodeo style roping.

MODERN VAQUERO


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## Fort fireman

Oh , there is one other thing I would like to point out. In the first video he said it himself. "I've been looking for a niche in the western world". I think it is just a catch phrase that is starting to catch on. Like oh I don't know," natural horsemanship" . Truely gifted horseman have been working in that natural horsemanship for ever but it's been just in the last 10-20 years it's really taken of with a title. Just My 2 cents worth.


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## bsms

"_One of the OR cowboys posed on his white pony with the herd in the distance. OR Ranch, Arizona._, 1909"










_A day herder keeping an eye on the grazing herd. LS Ranch, Texas_, 1907










Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide


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## Citrus

Why does everyone consider reining equivalent to dressage? I am just curious to have the paralells pointed out


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## Citrus

nrhareiner said:


> That is just it. They are trying to do something in western tack that was designed to be done in English tack.
> 
> 
> It is like saying I am going to go rope a cow in English tack and call it English roping or say with cutting.


I think we should start roping cows in English tack, call it English roping and market a special clip on saddle horn specifically for English roping to be used with their current English saddle.... hahahahaha


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## bsms

Citrus said:


> Why does everyone consider reining equivalent to dressage? I am just curious to have the paralells pointed out


There are others who could reply with a lot more knowledge than me, but here is what comes to my mind:

Dressage is about getting the horse to willingly obey your cues. Some western riding doesn't do this. Cutting teaches the horse to work the cow, and the rider provides advice, if you will. Reining also values the horse doing exactly what you say, when you say it. It is a very different approach from cutting, but both are western riding.

Both value subtle cues. Most riding does, I suppose, but dressage and reining both emphasize giving near invisible cues to the horse. Barrel racing, OTOH, really doesn't care for subtlety...

Both involve patterns and required movements. Reining movements are based on ranch work. They go beyond ranch work - not many ranch horses need to spin 360s or do sliding stops - but the roots are in daily ranch work. Dressage has a different history, but both use the movements to show off the horse's training and the rider's skill.

I ride neither, so those are just some thoughts from an outsider. Reining isn't dressage and dressage isn't reining, but they have some common approaches, with each applying those approaches to riding to their own history.


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## nrhareiner

Both reining and dressage are just as much a way of training as they are a discipline. I think BSMS explained it quite well in many ways.

Reining is used to show off the training that goes into working cattle. If you look at the history of reining and why it was started you will see that everything that a reiner does can and does easily translate into working cattle. This is why is it very every easy with very little additional training to take a reiner and do reined cow horse. Each maneuver in reining is the bases for some maneuver needed to work cattle.


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## longride

This is an interesting thread, but very one sided. I'd like to throw out a definition of dressage to work with. Dressage is the gymnastic development of the horse's muscles to allow the horse to carry a rider without strain. It is systematic, and the movements are not goals, but means to an end or tests that the goal has been accomplished. 

That said, dressage competition at the upper levels is very specialized, as is reining. Dressage competition emphasizes flexiblity and control of a fully energized horse working within a very specific speed constraint. The horse must extend and collect at all gaits without ever changing tempo. Reining emphasizes speed control and balance in transitions from speed to collection which requires a different skill set. Think of dressage as weight training if you like and reining as soccer. The soccer player will benefit from weight training, but would never want to specialize in it. 

Why western dressage competition? Well for one thing, unlike reining, dressage competitions add difficulty in stages. Instead of the same patterns for all horses judged against one standard, dressage competitions have a series of test increasing in difficulty, and a training level horse is not expected to perform at the same level as a finished Grand Prix horse. The performance that might be a 7 for a large circle at training level would only get a 3 or 4 done the same way at 4th level. More collection and greater strength are expected of a Grand Prix horse than of a 4th level horse. This opens the door to many competitors who may never achieve the upper levels or have no desire to do the speed work required in reining. 

BTW, I was fascinated by the assumption that Randy Byers was a dressage rider coming to western. In fact he's a western trainer coming to dressage. He's John Lyons certified, then trained Arabians. No where in his resume does he ever mention working with any dressage trainer. His introduction to dressage makes dressage people cringe. There are so many misconceptions it's hard to take. 

For anyone interested I have a blog studying dressage vs western and how WDAA may develop. I have two other trainers commenting on it. NHRA judge Rob Miller and Spanish Riding School trained Danny Collins. I welcome any and all comments. Http://www.dressageforwesternriders.blogspot.com


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## nrhareiner

It dose not matter how you wish to justify the "Western Dressage" what they are doing is counterproductive to the tack used. Watch the videos. They ride with contact with a shank bit. That is a big no no. 

There are also many many levels with in reining. Yes you are judged against a standard, like Dressage a winning score in Green reiner would not be a winning score in Rookie and rookie would not be a winning score in the non pro. Although some scores with in the non pro could be a very competitive score in the open.

The difference is that in reining we do not sugar coat it. You know exactly where you stand. If you can mark a 74 in a green reiner class chances are you could mark a 72-73 in a Open class. You know exactly where you stand. You know exactly what you need to work on there is no I marked a 72 in a greed class so I am great. Most green classes are won with a 68. You should not get a better score b/c it is a lower level. If it is not correct it is not correct. Simple.


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## longride

I think there has been so much comment on riding on contact with a curb from both western and dressage trainers that the WDAA will soon be changing the rules so that horses must stay in a snaffle until they can be ridden in a curb on the "weight of the reins." They don't even have tests for that level yet. 

I must admit I don't see dressage judging as sugar coating. If a horse is at a certain level of strength and suppleness, asking for more is damaging and will create problems later in training. He gets maximum scores for being at the level he should be in his progression. The rider should not be rewarded for pushing the horse to work at a higher level than it is ready for. The movements are tests of level of suppleness, engagement, relaxation and freedom of movement required of the level, not a skill set in themselves. Especially at the lower levels the exercises used in training may bear little relationship to the test. 

Which still begs the question, where does a western rider show who is disillusioned with rail classes and doesn't want to do speed work? There are lot of people out there who have no desire to do reining and really dislike the unnatural look found in rail classes. Believe me there are people on the dressage boards who sound just like NRHAreiner. I still haven't heard a good reason why not. Western tack doesn't prevent a rider from doing good dressage. A good reason would have "damages the horse" in it. Without that as far as I can see it's just a matter of personal taste.


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## nrhareiner

There are a lot of places and things you can show that are not rail classes or reining. IPHDA is a good place for people who want to work on training their horses and get good feed back from some of the top judges breeders and trainers in many many different disciplines. You do not even have to leave home if you do not wish and you can win money back. Along with high point awards and so much more. 

I use a lot of different dressage work when training and working my horses. I have no problem with using these things to work a horse. I would also have no problem showing any of my reiners in Dressage and I could do it on a loose rein. However I do not ride English and will not.

My point is that I just do not see why this is such a big deal. What I see is people riding with a curb bit with a lot of contact trying to get a horse to do something that dose not look very good. When your hand is up at your chine you have a problem. This is what I see in the videos I have watched. Put your hand down on the horses neck where it should be and then ask your horse to do the work. 

Again there are levels with in reining that can work for every rider and every horse. If someone does not wish to do reining their are many many other events that they can do. Can this be one of them? I suppose. However call it what it is. Give it a proper name. Western dressage is not that.


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## bsms

Apart from the saddle used, what is western about western dressage? In what sense does it reflect the history and traditions of western riding?

Being both inexperienced and inclined to experiment - a nice way of saying stupid - I've tried riding western seat in a jump saddle, and riding my imitation of a jump seat in a western saddle. Neither is impossible, but you have to fight with your gear. It also tends to confuse and annoy the horse, because it forces the horse to fight the gear.

It seems to me that western dressage is neither, so what is the point? I'm sure there are folks who can train their horses to be ridden while the rider is backwards in the saddle, and it wouldn't be cruel to the horse and maybe they think it is fun, but I just wonder why they bother.

I suppose if they called it "Cross Tack Dressage" it wouldn't bother me as much. I don't see the connection between western dressage and western riding.


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## bsms

longride said:


> ...BTW, I was fascinated by the assumption that Randy Byers was a dressage rider coming to western. In fact he's a western trainer coming to dressage. He's John Lyons certified, then trained Arabians. No where in his resume does he ever mention working with any dressage trainer. His introduction to dressage makes dressage people cringe...


Then he should know that western riders DO use their seats & legs to cue turns. He should understand how the gear & the goals of western riding influence the cues. He hides that knowledge well in his video...


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## Eolith

I would like to note that there does tend to be a fair bit of variation in western saddles. I believe that it is possible to acquire one that is styled similarly enough to a dressage saddle that it would be possible to ride fairly decent dressage. The biggest things are just having the stirrups set back enough that you can ride with a very straight leg and having a deep enough seat to stay secure and in contact with the horse.

Even so, I do prefer dressage saddles for dressage riding.


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## nrhareiner

Again bsms you have stated things well. That was the point I was trying and not very well to make. WHY? What is the point? Each discipline have their own type of saddle be it western or english. Each saddle is designed to work for that event. Same with bits. Each bit is designed to work in a certain way for certain reasons. You would not ride a Barrel horse in the bit I use for reining or reined cow horse. I would not use the same tack set up for cutting as I would for roping. Each one has its own gear. There is a reason for that also.


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## equiniphile

I think BSMS and NRHAreiner have stated things very well. I personally don't see the point. You're not riding with traditional Western neck reining, nor a traditional Western posture, and not on a Western-type horse. What I see is dressage....in a Western saddle. Why fight the gear, like mentioned above? Why not give yourself and your horse the best possible shot by riding in gear suited to what you want to do?


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## longride

I'm curious about this "dressage isn't western" vs the Vaquero tradition of training the bridle horse, which from my experience is very similar to classical dressage in progression and in the exercises used to develop the horse.


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## Scoutrider

longride said:


> I'm curious about this "dressage isn't western" vs the Vaquero tradition of training the bridle horse, which from my experience is very similar to classical dressage in progression and in the exercises used to develop the horse.


I wouldn't say that western riders don't do dressage after a fashion - dressage is just French for training, after all. The difference is in the overall goals and roots of both broad traditions, and merging them leads to some odd juxtapositions. In the process of dealing with the merger, the things that really define each discipline get muddied and blurred. I have an immense respect for the Vaquero training tradition, and am constantly amazed at their finished bridle horses, but to ride a bridle horse on contact correctly (or safely) you'd have to scale the equipment back so far that it wouldn't be doing bridle horse things anymore. Similarity doesn't mean that they can be combined while maintaining the purity and ideals of each discipline. 

Dressage and Reining both have so much to offer the horse industry as a whole - why water either of them down? Why ask a Western horse to move like an English horse, against his breeding/type and against his tack? 

A further issue I see is how to decide what is included in Western Dressage - are maneuvers skewed in the direction of extension, collection, tempis changes, pirouettes, etc.? Or are we talking spins, rollbacks, slides, and flying changes? Mixing them will be counterproductive at best, and if you go one way or the other you might as well make life easy and ride in the tack that won't fight you through the movements.


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## smrobs

Well said Scout.

Dressage _isn't_ western and no matter how much muddying people like that guy try to do, it will not change. Dressage has it's basis in battlefield training, not cattle work. _All_ western disciplines have their basis in ranch and cattle work.

The vaquero style still has it's basis in cattle work, hence....western riding, so no matter how many similarities it may have to dressage (which IMHO, there are no more similarities between it and dressage than there are between reining and dressage), it is still a whole different animal.


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## bsms

longride said:


> I'm curious about this "dressage isn't western" vs the Vaquero tradition of training the bridle horse, which from my experience is very similar to classical dressage in progression and in the exercises used to develop the horse.


I'm not experienced enough to have a lot of business answering, but I'll give it a shot anyways...

The vaquero tradition is a subset of western riding, as is cutting, reining, etc. Like WP (I think), it shares the head/hip/heel alignment seen in dressage. It also shares a tradition of having a long time frame for training the horse.

However, again, suppose someone said they wanted a new sport: vaquero dressage. It would be like vaquero riding, only with dressage principles brought in - apparently by someone who doesn't know a lot about dressage, according to your earlier posts. I suspect those who spent their lives learning the vaquero tradition would want to know why you think it is incomplete without adding 'dressage'. They might want to know why the 'vaquero dressage' instructors wanted to teach them to use their seat when riding, when I suspect they already do.

I'm not a cutter, reiner, vaquero or dressage rider. Right now, my big goal is teaching Mia not to freak when she sees the Great Green Trashcans of Death, or the Yellow Bus That Eats Children and Horses. Having played around with different styles, I've concluded I need to settle on one because she NEEDS consistent guidance and cues to help her manage her fear.

But I've got a book on cutting that has sections a dressage rider would identify with. There are principles of training that all horses respond well to. But differences in goals dictate a difference in gear, and those combine to create a different style of equitation.

The dressage rider doesn't need a western saddle, and a western rider doesn't need the degree of collection desired in dressage. Learning about different styles so you can adapt good training ideas to what you want to achieve is one thing. Pretending western riders don't already use flexibility, collection, leg and seat cues, etc - all in a way that supports their goal - and thus need half-baked dressage to teach us how is simply ignorance.

If someone wants to develop a new style of equitation or new sport, they should first answer what it adds to the mix that already exists. And they should then do so, if it adds, without pretending the current styles are used by people too stupid to use leg cues. Not all western riders hang desperately on to the horn while screaming "Whoa, Nellie!" as their horse breaks into a jog...


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## bsms

Scoutrider said:


> I wouldn't say that western riders don't do dressage after a fashion - dressage is just French for training, after all...


I wish I had been able to read this post before I composed mine...very well said (entire post).


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## raywonk

I just want to say that a rail horse can do everything that that dressage horse can do. We still have to be suppil and responsive. My horse still has to work of my leg and seat aids. I want to make it look like I am not telling my horse anything at all.


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## nrhareiner

The thing is that if the "western Dressage" people do not think that reiners and other western riders do not use leg and seat to control their horses. Then how do you explain Stacy Westfall and Rocky Dare and so many other great trainers who when doing freestyle reining do so with no bridle at all some with no tack at all. 

Reining is all about leg and seat and very very little about bit and reins. Same with cutting. What you do not see is what makes it what it is.


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## nrhareiner

raywonk said:


> I just want to say that a rail horse can do everything that that dressage horse can do. We still have to be suppil and responsive. My horse still has to work of my leg and seat aids. I want to make it look like I am not telling my horse anything at all.



That is just it. With western b/c you have so little bit contact the horse must respond to leg and seat. I spend a lot of time working my horses with a dropped bit/reins. If find this helps a lot as it gets me out of my horses way.

Like I have stated before I incorporate a lot of dressage type things into my training and working my horse. By doing this I can get the correct position to improve the maneuvers.

Like has been stated Dressage is based on horses in combat. Western events/disciplines are based on what is needed to work a ranch. From WP which is an extension of what is needed to ride a horse around the ranch all day to check cattle and fencing. Roping and cutting are self explanatory. Reining is simple a repaclement for cutting and cattle work in an area that has/had very little need for true cattle work. So the maneuvers that you see in reining are an extension and a way to show off how a horse could work a cow.


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## skittlesfirehawk

Ive heard of cowboy dressage which is a new and upcomming thing and then there is reining which is the western worlds version.


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## longride

I think we have a real difference in the definition of dressage. To me you can't use "dressage like" movements - if you are using lateral work, circles, etc to develop the horse's balance and suppleness, due to the biomechanics of the horse you can either do it in a way that increases the horse's ability to carry a rider (dressage) or in a way that will eventually cause damage to joints and shorten the useful life of the horse. So if you are using circles under a western saddle, and the horse becomes more balanced, more able to collect, more supple through it's body, you aren't doing "dressage like" circles - you're doing dressage. 

Western dressage isn't a slap at reining. In WD competitions they won't have reining moves - spins and sliding stops but WD organizers are primarily reining people who are familiar with the Vaquero system. Jack Brainard was one of the original organizers of the NRHA. They are very aware that reining people ride off seat and leg, not hand. What they say they want is a broader base of western riders who understand the progressive training that leads to that. The majority of people who ride western do not do reining, will never work a cow, and pick up their training from watching at shows without ever seeing the work at home. I have taught ( or tried to teach) too many people who think they have to jump right to the skill set for barrels or reining without any foundation. 

By the way, The IPHDA is offering western dressage classes and sees it as complimentary to their program.


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## Scoutrider

longride said:


> I think we have a real difference in the definition of dressage. To me you can't use "dressage like" movements - if you are using lateral work, circles, etc to develop the horse's balance and suppleness, due to the biomechanics of the horse you can either do it in a way that increases the horse's ability to carry a rider (dressage) or in a way that will eventually cause damage to joints and shorten the useful life of the horse. So if you are using circles under a western saddle, and the horse becomes more balanced, more able to collect, more supple through it's body, you aren't doing "dressage like" circles - you're doing dressage.


I agree with the above in theory, but in practice the desired outcome for a western horse, regardless of sub-discipline, is much different than that of a competitive dressage horse. Hence the use of "dressage-like" in terminology here, I think. The movements and the reasoning behind their use are similar/the same, but the desired outcome is very different in terms of specific movement and carriage. Good riding/training is good riding/training is dressage (French for "training"), no contest. But, western disciplines are not dressage (classical training system producing horses for a specific competitive sport based on Renaissance military maneuvers). That isn't a bad thing. The goals of each discipline _as a discipline_ are so different that an attempt to merge the two would simply take away from the western horse what makes him unique/specialized, and take away from the "D" dressage horse what makes him specialized. 



longride said:


> Western dressage isn't a slap at reining. In WD competitions they won't have reining moves - spins and sliding stops but WD organizers are primarily reining people who are familiar with the Vaquero system. Jack Brainard was one of the original organizers of the NRHA. They are very aware that reining people ride off seat and leg, not hand. *What they say they want is a broader base of western riders who understand the progressive training that leads to that. *The majority of people who ride western do not do reining, will never work a cow, and pick up their training from watching at shows without ever seeing the work at home. *I have taught ( or tried to teach) too many people who think they have to jump right to the skill set for barrels or reining without any foundation.*
> 
> By the way, The IPHDA is offering western dressage classes and sees it as complimentary to their program.


I'm not saying that WD is a horrible thing, only that, as a formal discipline, I do not see that it offers anything that a different discipline doesn't already do in a purer, more specialized sense. I fail to see how, as an established formal discipline, WD will meet the above bolded needs of 'average' western riders any better than reining already does, and ditto to the English world. What is to stop someone from watching an upper-level WD class and going home to try it without the proper foundation? Dressage I know offers specific levels and exercises pertaining to each level. Reining as I understand it has fewer competitive maneuvers, present at all levels, but each level demands greater finesse and quality from horse and rider - building the foundation for envy-inducing spins and jaw-dropping slides in the upper levels. 

If anyone wants to get into WD, I say more power to ya and enjoy yourself. I just personally fail to see how it brings anything new or better to the table than already exists.


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## nrhareiner

longride said:


> I think we have a real difference in the definition of dressage. To me you can't use "dressage like" movements - if you are using lateral work, circles, etc to develop the horse's balance and suppleness, due to the biomechanics of the horse you can either do it in a way that increases the horse's ability to carry a rider (dressage) or in a way that will eventually cause damage to joints and shorten the useful life of the horse. So if you are using circles under a western saddle, and the horse becomes more balanced, more able to collect, more supple through it's body, you aren't doing "dressage like" circles - you're doing dressage.
> 
> *Ok I hope I am reading this wrong. B/C from what I can gather you are trying to say that dressage is the only way to get to the end results? I call BS on that one. There are always more then one way to skin a cat so to speak. What you are doing is good training. You are teaching the horse to use it body. Dressage is a way of training as is reining a way of training and so on. Each has it ways go doing things. Neither is better then the other. *
> 
> Western dressage isn't a slap at reining. In WD competitions they won't have reining moves - spins and sliding stops but WD organizers are primarily reining people who are familiar with the Vaquero system. Jack Brainard was one of the original organizers of the NRHA. They are very aware that reining people ride off seat and leg, not hand.
> 
> *Could have fooled me by the way they ride. Every video I watch they are in the horses face with a curb bit. That is so wrong on so many levels.*
> 
> What they say they want is a broader base of western riders who understand the progressive training that leads to that. The majority of people who ride western do not do reining, will never work a cow, and pick up their training from watching at shows without ever seeing the work at home. I have taught ( or tried to teach) too many people who think they have to jump right to the skill set for barrels or reining without any foundation.
> 
> *This type of person is not going to benefit from reining WD Dressage or any other event. They do not have nor do they want the back ground needed to under stand what is needed. They are the ones who do not or can not use a trainer to get there. This or anything is not going to change that.*
> 
> By the way, The IPHDA is offering western dressage classes and sees it as complimentary to their program.


Yes and it does not change the fact that I have a problem with it as do many many other western riders. They are offering it to add to what people can do and enter. The fact that the horses are still being ridden on the bit and fighting the gear has not changed. This is simple a class they have added. It is not part of what they set out to do.


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## bsms

longride said:


> ...So if you are using circles under a western saddle, and the horse becomes more balanced, more able to collect, more supple through it's body, you aren't doing "dressage like" circles - you're doing dressage...


If you use the word dressage to mean training - and we already have an English word for that..."training" - then yes, western riders do dressage every time they ride or do ground work with a horse. However, using the name of a recognized Olympic sport as a substitute for training is one of the sources of confusion.

Dressage has a progression of training that works it way up to riding with a high degree of collection. The higher levels of dressage need to be worked up to slowly or you can damage the horse's legs by putting too much pressure too soon on rear legs not up to the task. 

Western riding does not emphasize that degree of collection because collected riding before judges isn't the goal. A more modest degree of collection is good because it will help the horse's health and agility, and THAT is desired in western riding.

And since the tack is different, the ways to encourage collection can differ. A western saddle typically puts you further to the rear, and sitting on your seat pockets puts even more weight to the rear. With a western saddle, distributing the weight over a large area in the rear, the horse responds by bringing his hind legs under some as a natural way of balancing. With an English saddle - at least when I tried it with my Bates CC saddle - I got the opposite result. Too much pressure and the horse hollowed her back to avoid it. Maybe it would be different with a dressage saddle - I don't own one so I don't know.

My first lesson in western riding (I've now hit 4!), I was told to settle back in my saddle when preparing to stop to encourage the horse to use his hind legs to support the stop - and the reason was to take pressure off the front legs and prolong the horse's health.

When dressage is used to mean training, it confuses things. Western riders train their horses, but they don't want to achieve the end goal of the sport of dressage. I view 'Western Dressage' like riding backwards - folks can do it if they want, but I don't see where it adds much to the community.


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## nrhareiner

What I see as a big difference between western and English type riding is what we expect and when. I have been to A LOT of Dressage shows Hunter shows both schooling and rated and jumper shows. I watch these horses warm up and what I do not see even with people I know and have watched work at home and talk to. 

What say a low level Dressage test asks for at least for me is wanting. B/C of this I do not see these horses as learning the fundamentals. What I see is a horse who can walk around and that is about it. Why is there no part of the lower level dressage tests and by lower level I mean the first 1 or 2 test have the rider moving the horses hips and shoulders. This is one of the very first things that are taught in western. It is the basses for EVERYTHING. If you cam move your horses body you can get them to do everything and anything. I really think this is one of the big reasons why a lot of the people I know who ride english have a very very hard time getting a flying lead change and getting their horse to pick up a lead on the straight. They do not have the body control needed to get the job done and they have no desire to work at it.


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## Scoutrider

I see your point, NRHA. Intro level dressage tests as spectator sport are about on the same level as watching paint dry. :lol: That being said, Intro level is designed more with the novice competitor in mind than to truly test the progress and ability of the horse. Training level is still fairly simple in terms of maneuvers, but does include working canter, and the beginnings of lateral work are demonstrated in First level tests. In my understanding of the progression, teams showing at Training level should be schooling First level at home, showing First should be schooling Second, etc. 

Also, even if exercises that demonstrate body control are not explicitly included in the test, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are not taught/introduced at that stage in order to prepare for explicitly tested movements. 

I expect some of the difference in expectation can be attributed to differences between the horses that specialize in reining versus dressage. There's a big difference, physical and mental, between a 3 year old Hanoverian or Dutch Warmblood and a 3 year old QH or Paint. Even at 5 or 7 years, I would expect a warmblood to be less physically/mentally mature than a QH of the same age. It takes a lot longer for these breeds to build the requisite muscle, but the potential makes the slow progression and the waiting worth it, IMHO. :wink:


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## nrhareiner

I can understand that a WB is slower to mature. However after watching/shooting these shows. Seeing a lot of the same horses year after year after year and they still do not have a lead change with out going to a trot. They still can not pick up a lead on a straight line. When they do get a lead change 85% of the time it is only in the front. Telling me they have no hip control. Also watching them in the warm up pen a lot of what I see are people who are just loping their horse. No other work. Now I know that does not mean they do not work on other things at home. I would just expect that they would do some of the work there too to make sure all things are going well.

Again I think it is just a different mentality or expectations.


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## longride

I wrote a long reply, but scraped it. We're talking past each other. I agree no working horse, be it eventer, reiner or trail horse, needs the skill set of the upper level dressage horse. 

What most saddens me is that anyone thinks the kind of work NHRAreiner describes is dressage work. It isn't. It's novice riders attempting tests without the skills to train to a higher level. My "training level" horses were doing lateral work, flying changes, counter canter and much more at home. When I was showing 3rd level my horse was playing with canter pirouettes. When he had achieved 4th level he was doing piaffe as an exercise to improve the trot. When I could train canter pirouettes I rode for different things in my training level horses, had a larger choice of exercises to bring them along that had accumulated as I was brought up the levels. I doubt if I ever rode a training session that looked remotely like a training level dressage test. 

With a new horse under saddle, I guess I could put the above in present tense. With this horse as with the others what we work on will be to help him gain balance, strength and suppleness. If he tells me he enjoys dressage for the sake of dressage we'll go there. Otherwise I plan to have one heck of a nice trail horse.


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## nrhareiner

I am not talking beginner riders. I am talking people working under trainers and even trainers them selves. Not just joe shmoo off the street. Some even show at rated shows. People teaching kids and so on. It just baffles me to no end. 

It is always fun to take one of my reiners to shows where there are western and english riders and some are the people I am talking about. They look at me funny when I can get even my green reiners to do things they can not get their older horses who have been under saddle for years and years to do.

Now I know not all are like this. However in all my years shooting these shows this is more the norm then the exception.


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## longride

Oh, I thought you WERE talking about rated shows The problem in this country since dressage became popular is the same problem that WD will have. There simply aren't really a lot of highly trained instructors. As I came up I only worked with the very best, so it took me a long time with limited funds to gain the knowledge I needed. I never claimed to be a "dressage" instructor. My students just selected me because they wanted a solid dressage foundation and then they had success at CDI rated shows. 

So I know for sure that even at the largest shows on the East Coast, the people riding training level rarely have trained a horse above 2nd level if that. My students hadn't and they had top scores. The people showing FEI don't bring their horses to show until 2nd or 3rd level. Local rated shows were about the same standard, packed with lower level riders and only the very rare FEI rider showing. Anybody can hang out a shingle and claim to be a dressage instructor. 

I won't bother you with what I've seen called reining at local shows in my area. I've trained side by side with some good ones and know better than to think that's the real thing.


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## nrhareiner

You are missing my point. The trainers around here are not what I would consider BYT. They have done well at upper level dressage. Some of the trainers who do H/J have also competed at a higher level and done well. It just seem that for what ever reason they do not do what I consider very basic fundamentals until a lot latter in the training.

As for reining trainers. I personally will not and do not call a trainer a reining trainer until they have fully trained and competing in NRHA Open and won quite a bit of money. Anyone can all themselves anything. That is what is great about reining. It is very very easy to check.


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## shmurmer4

nrhareiner said:


> It is always fun to take one of my reiners to shows where there are western and english riders and some are the people I am talking about. They look at me funny when I can get even my green reiners to do things they can not get their older horses who have been under saddle for years and years to do.


You can take a nice 2 year old reiner with maybe 90 days and do this! :-D


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## nrhareiner

A 2yo at 90 days I would expect to follow their nose, to move EVERY inch of their body at the walk and trot. Side pass turn stop (not really what I would consider a slide) if they are wanting to stop hard they will get sliders on at that point. If they have a solid trot they will be moved up to a lope. If you have everything done at the walk and trot the lope is easy. Then over the next year and a 1/2 the horse will get more consistent add more speed and finesse. They will also learn many other things but with in the first 3-4 months they will have a very solid foundation. One that will stay with them for the rest of their lives.


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## IPHDA

I found this discussion a few days late I do not know if anyone will see this but i wanted to give my take on some of the common points made in this thread. BTW thanks to NrhaReiner and longrider for mentioning IPHDA.
I will just start with the reason IPHDA was started, when it was being developed we considered names for our new event like Reining 101, western dressage etc. we settled on Performance Horse Development because the patterns and our judging criteria will test the foundation training needed for any performance horse even lower level dressage horses.

Horses need to learn to accept the riders hands and legs, move forward into contact and move their body parts independently of each other if they want to perform to the best of their ability in any event. Until PHD there was no event except dressage that offered new riders or new horses a place to compete while they learned those skills. 

I agree with who ever said the end goal of western horses is not that of a dressage horse, but I agree somewhat with the person who said the lower levels of WD can be beneficial depending on how they are judged. (WD only has lower levels at this time)

I agree and disagree with the concept that riding a horse into contact with a shanked bit is wrong, in my opinion riding a horse into a cathedral bit or one with a high port for palate signal is probably not the best idea. But riding a horse into contact with a shank bit with a snaffle mouth piece or a low port used for tongue release is quite acceptable if your horse has not developed any self carriage that allows the rider to ride them with no contact.

I think the biggest reason that many western riders have problems and I could list many, but here are a few, lead changes, falling out of lead spins with no cadence, proppy stops is that they try for an end goal without a lot of the concepts that PHD and dressage bring to the training table. 

Reining horses need to develop self carriage and for the horse to perform with self carriage the rider has to have rhythm to help them hold the desired position with out a lot of contact. 
Very few western trainers achieve self carriage simply because it is very difficult to develop, some do one certain horses and those are called natural, but in truth the horse has naturally strong abdomen muscles and self carriage in a round frame is easier for them. Developing the horses abdomen muscles is a harder process and why even in reining it is why you see only a few dominating in the event the trainers who work on a round frame instead of an elevated frame. (I wrote a blog post on this awhile ago if anyone is interested in more of my opinion on this Rod Miller PHD Professional: Can western dressage help western riders learn better training ). 

Now for the issues with western dressage, and why IPHDA is hosting some events. First I think anything that allows people to learn about in stages is a good thing. That is why PHD was created to allow riders to learn what extension at the trot feels like before they are asked to extend at the lope to a stop, to allow them to feel what shoulder and hip control in a circle at a walk and trot feels like before they are asked to spin or run a fast circle.

Secondly I think Western dressage will need to decide what it wants to develop as before they can go far. They say jog instead of trot and a jog is a trained gait(a collected trot with a slower cadence) Jog is best developed by first being able to lengthen the horses stride so the horse understands the riders rhythm and hands so that they do not just shorten and slow the stride. Part of the reason that PHD and Dressage do not ask for collection until after a normal stride and some extension has been developed in the horses stride.
WD also wants dressage judges judging and the dressage judge will judge all horses on their preparation to carry an elevated frame and most events work best with a level to round frame. (if you want to know my interpretation of the frames then read the blog post above.)

Lastly on WD I think many people are getting riled about what a few trainers (in video's) that basically couldn't train anything else, so they jumped on the WD wagon (not Ethan or Jack both of those gentlemen have developed some great horses over the years.) I agree with whoever said the horse is resistant to the bit, a horse should not resist contact if they are going to be rode on a drape or on contact. Anyone that shows that as an example of Western dressage is not doing the event or association any favors. 

Time will tell where WD goes as an event bit for now at the lower levels any one that has a broke horse can do well in a WD test and that is why IPHDA offers them. If they try to do more higher level dressage type events then I will have to wait and see how it is judged before I offer an opinion as to its usefulness for western training. If they develop more like IPHDA then they have a long way to go with creating new patterns and judging criteria..

Anything that allows people to learn in a stepping stone fashion is good for the horse industry in my opinion.

Rod


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## nrhareiner

Hi Rod,

Glade to see you come and join our community. Your opinion is greatly appreciated and I will tell anyone here Rod knows his stuff. Hope you will stick around and grace us with your knowledge and information.


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## IPHDA

Thank you, ) I always learn from voicing my opinion it allows me to become clearer in my explanations and to examine and consider others opinions. So I enjoy reading the posts on training and certain things and for sure will keep offering my opinion when time allows. it is raining today, LOL 
Quick question on the rules here, many times I am wanting to explain what I mean and find referring to my blog posts or video's as the easiest way, I did it in the above post but didn't want to very often until I know the rules here? 

Rod


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## ruby61

Here is the link to the new website for Western Dressage:
www.westerndressageassociation.org I think this will help to answer alot of the questions. Be sure to read the article about Jack Brainard "A Horseman with a History". He was one of the original organizers behind the NRHA and is a legendary Western horseman. This sport is indeed approved by the USEF and isn't specific to Morgans, although it started with the Morgan breed shows and has grown. Only lower level tests exist right now but a committee is working on the upper level tests. Regarding the comment by NRHAreiner about dressage being developed for English saddles it actually originated in Spain and they used a saddle which isn't "English" or "Western". The classical training methods originated to train their horses for war. Later the methods were adapted to peacetime exhibitions for royalty and to work cattle in the Spanish countryside. Then, as Fortfireman points out, the Spanish training methods came to the new world and were adapted to fit that lifestyle/work. The value of applying these methods to the Western horse can best be explained in the Jack Brainard article but here is an excerptCalboy is his horse  ) 

'a marriage of classical dressage principles and western traditions – hence the reason "Calboy" can canter in place, perform a beautiful piaffe (essentially a trot in place) and also dig into the ground for a sliding stop or a reining spin'.


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## bsms

I understand doing dressage OR western styles. I understand doing dressage AND western styles. I can understand crosstraining. 

But I do not see the benefit of combining them into one sport. The degree of collection desired in dressage takes a lot of training and doesn't have a ranch application. Why train to a goal you won't use? Why use equipment designed for one style and force it into another style?

BTW - collection isn't even a term found in American military manuals until the last one in the 1940s. It was investigated in the 1800s and significant collection was deemed useless for war.

I'm not opposed to collection, but it isn't an end to itself. Dressage needs more collection than ranch work, so it trains with that in mind. Ranch work doesn't ignore collection, but since less is needed, it isn't emphasized the way dressage does. Different goals.

From the article you mention:

" We must remember that as a horse 
is just standing around, he carries much more weight on his 
front end than he does his back end. For this horse to perform 
correctly, we’ve got to transfer that load off the front end to 
his back end. That’s why collection is so important. You just 
must have it doing anything with a horse. It’s the one 
prerequisite of doing anything with a performance horse.”

But as speed increases, you need to use the hind end to generate acceleration, not to carry weight. Carrying weight with the rear robs the horse of thrust.

We have dressage. We have cutting, and reining, and barrel racing and western pleasure. What does 'western dressage' add to the mix, and in what sense is it western riding?


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## ruby61

There are a couple of ways to answer this, you obviously are coming from the perspective of "practical" uses for "western" riding like ranchwork. Although I don't really see how reining and cutting competitions qualify as "practical" work. How often on a ranch is a horse required to do a 360 degree spin at a fast speed? or a Loooooong sliding stop? All of these "skills" originated from cattlework but have been taken way beyond their practical usage for the sake of competition. To go even further, how many Western riders nowadays actually live on a cattle ranch? I would guess not many. So the element of doing something just for the sake of doing it or for the "fun" or "thrill" is obviously the motivating force for many riders (of course for some money is the motivation). Regarding the issue you bring up of "style" remember that reining and cutting for their own sake were once new "styles". If a group of riders want to get together and create a new style I say "why not". I'm sure these disciplines had their critics at the beginning also--it seems to be part of human nature.

Regarding the American military and collection for their horses, I was referring to training horses for war hundreds of years ago in Europe when they were the primary means of transport, not modern cavalry which didn't have the motivation or want to take the time to teach a horse in the classical methods.

I board my horse on a working cattle ranch and have the opportunity to gather cattle and even do some cutting. I plan on training her in WD to make her a better athlete and more versatile. I also enjoy working with her as a team to learn new skills and take her to the highest level she and I are capable of----for the sheer joy of it. 

P.S. WD is growing fast, as of today there are 125 members and more joining everyday so I predict it is more than a "fad".


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## bsms

^^OK. Enjoy it and have a good time. I'm puzzled by it, but LOTS of things in life puzzle me.


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## ruby61

> However, again, suppose someone said they wanted a new sport: vaquero dressage. It would be like vaquero riding, only with dressage principles brought in


- 

Just wanted to mention BSMS that Vaquero Dressage already exists. It's called Doma Vaquera (Doma means dressage) and originated in Spain and has made it's way to U.S. where competitions are held. It's usually done on Spanish horses (Andalusians/Lusitanos) and the moves originated in the Spanish countryside working cattle( and before that for the battlefield) They were working cattle in Spain long before cattle ranches appeared in the Western U.S. I'm going to include a link below which demonstrates Doma Vaquera. Interesting to note that these horses are collected which makes them very athletic and quick. Pls note the rollbacks, spins (but more collected so are actually canter pirouettes) and gallop to a sliding stop---hmmm, wonder where our "modern" reining moves actually came from.:wink:


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## nrhareiner

ruby61 said:


> -
> 
> Just wanted to mention BSMS that Vaquero Dressage already exists. It's called Doma Vaquera (Doma means dressage) and originated in Spain and has made it's way to U.S. where competitions are held. It's usually done on Spanish horses (Andalusians/Lusitanos) and the moves originated in the Spanish countryside working cattle( and before that for the battlefield) They were working cattle in Spain long before cattle ranches appeared in the Western U.S. I'm going to include a link below which demonstrates Doma Vaquera. Interesting to note that these horses are collected which makes them very athletic and quick. Pls note the rollbacks, spins (but more collected so are actually canter pirouettes) and gallop to a sliding stop---hmmm, wonder where our "modern" reining moves actually came from.:wink:
> YouTube - ‪(7º) Doma Vaquera, Nacional, Jerez de La Frontera.‬‏



That was really bad. The horse looked forced uncomfortable and not very athletic. He was hopping and not as fluid as I have seen these horses in the past.

As for where and how reining and the NRHA started I can tell you if you rally want to know. I am also sure that IPHDA can also enlighten you if needed.


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## ruby61

Wanted to post one more video to address those comments about there being no purpose for teaching dressage within the discipline of Western riding and how Western riding evolved from working cattle. This video shows Vaqueros (buckaroos/cowboys) on their collected Spanish horses working cows. Note the guy chasing cows through the trees and how agile his horse is. How many of us can get our horses to change direction so quickly--especially at full speed? Oh yeah, one more thing, is he riding in a Western or English saddle???:-o


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## ruby61

OMG, hmmm, hopping, think that is called suspension. Oh well, yes, pls do enlighten me and tell me exactly where reining came from.


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## IPHDA

Ruby61, that was something, but it sure was not relaxed and willing? the horse was behind the vertical the whole time he was not as much collected as he was very elevated which is why his hind legs do not move as far as his front legs, yes his shoulders are very free but he would have trouble catching a range cow running like that! (if you notice in the second video when you were impressed with how quick he could turn from a run he actually swung his *** and not his shoulders and lost the cow, because he flattened out to run and would not come back to the elevation that quick and his shoulders got stuck so he had to swing his *** or fall. ), if he had been trained to go forward and come back to round he could have made the transition from flat to round very easily and his shoulders would have moved instead of his *** and the cow would still have the extra 5 pounds it lost running around! LOL 

They are all behind the vertical because they are using big cathedral bits and to get away from the port with that much contact the horse has to come behind the vertical. This does create elevation and suspension but it is not the most efficient way to work cattle nor is it the most efficient way to create willing responses.

So Are you telling us this will be what upper level western dressage will resemble?

NRHA you are on your own with where reining came from, ) I know it was developed in the east designed to resemble a class AQHA had called handy horse or some such thing, where AQHA got the class from I have no clue, I have heard it was based on working cows but most of the guys that originally started NRHA were not cowboys they were horsemen. ) 

For me reining is a test of how broke your horse is running circles shows proper body control by being able to stand up and stay in lead, stops are just extreme downward transitions, and spins are the ultimate in shoulder control, roll backs are the only thing that I can see as helpful when working a cow except working a cow on a really broke horse is easier. :O) and the roll backs that some Reiners do would loose most cows anyway. LOL


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## nrhareiner

NRHA started in Ohio. It was first started by horseman who where not cowboys as cattle are kept differently here then they are out west. They wanted a way to show off their cow horses yet did not want to actually work cattle with their horses. At first it was not what you see today. Several of the people who started decided to start the NRHA set rules and patterns and then the first futurity was started and took place in conjunction with Quarter horse congress in Columbus.

Anyway that is the short version. Now I need to go find some puppies.


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## IPHDA

NRHA, do you remember the name of the AQHA class they all showed in before they started the NRHA? I know the history of who and when and how just cant remember all of the why!

Rod


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## nrhareiner

I want to say it was something like a cow horse class. When I talk to my friend I will ask. Her and her husband where 2 of the founders with Bill and all the other old timers. She will remember I am sure.


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## smrobs

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that noticed the complete lack of any form of relaxation in that first horse. Truthfully, he just looks like he's scrambling to get away from the spurs and bit.

As for the second video, it's interesting to see how other cultures do their cattle work, but I didn't see a single thing _anywhere_ in there that a good ranch horse couldn't do better...with a relaxed carriage and a level topline.


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## bsms

Lots of folks on here with way more knowledge than me, so I'll limit myself to two points:

1 - If those videos are where 'western dressage' wants to go, then I'm more puzzled than ever. Who would want it? It reminds me of the old joke about Christian Scientists...they are neither. It didn't look like anything either a western rider or a dressage rider would want to claim.

2 - First SOB tries to cut my horse's tail off like that gets shot with a 44. Assuming my horse doesn't kick him into the next county first. Are there no flies in Spain?


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## nrhareiner

bsms said:


> 2 - First SOB tries to cut my horse's tail off like that gets shot with a 44. Assuming my horse doesn't kick him into the next county first. Are there no flies in Spain?


I was thinking the same thing but with a 12 gauge.


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## ruby61

Boy I love this forum, don't think I've ever seen so many "expert" opinions by so many uninformed folks (not including IPHA here). I admire Spanish horses and the Spanish way of riding. As I said before it is the basis of our "western riding" just go study your history folks. I just posted the videos to get across the point that there are MANY different ways to ride and train a horse---open up your minds!! IPHA, you're much more knowledgeable about Western riding than I am so maybe you're right about the points you make about the Doma Vaquera competition. I rode English for 30 years and just recently switched to Western.I quickly grabbed a video off the internet. No, I'm not saying that the upper levels of WD will be based on Doma Vaquera, I'm just a member of the organization and not one of the committee members making those decisions.

What I would like to say, however, is that so far in our forums we are much more "inclusive" and the talk is accepting of diversity.

NRHA I never said the competitive sport of Reining STARTED from Spanish riding, I said look at the movements they share in common: the rollback, spin,gallop to a sliding stop. Even holding the right arm across the chest at the gallop.Do you honestly think those were INVENTED in America? As I said in one of my other posts cattle were being worked in Spain long before they were here. AND, the only reason I'm even bringing that up is in an attempt to get you people to open up your minds and not put something down just because it is different and new.It's always so much easier to criticize and tear down than to create and build something new. Whew, well that's it for me, I'm off to find another forum topic where it isn't dominated by a few people with a little knowledge and a lot of biased opinions to share.:-x

Again, not including IPHA in my rant, I looked up your organization and will probably be joining, what a great idea!


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## corinowalk

For someone preaching acceptance and diversity, you sure are being rather nasty in that post. 

I think having levels to bring a horse up through will surely come in handy.


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## nrhareiner

Not sure why you seem to think we are close minded or not knowledgeable. I have been reining for a log time. I have horses who have finished in the top 30 in the world. My mentors where some of the same people who started the NRHA. So I think I am well informed and know a thing or 2 and since Rod stated the same things about the videos that I did not sure how he is correct and I am not??


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## bsms

ruby61 said:


> Boy I love this forum, don't think I've ever seen so many "expert" opinions by so many uninformed folks (not including IPHA here). I admire Spanish horses and the Spanish way of riding. As I said before it is the basis of our "western riding" just go study your history folks...


Except it is NOT the basis for western riding. It was limited to ranches in California that had a different business model from ranches anywhere else. From Idaho to Texas, few cowboys had the time or inclination to do the long term training that a high degree of collection requires. It was also found to be less useful for covering rough ground. Caprilli called it "entirely superfluous".

"For the most part, a high state of collection is totally unnecessary, and except with the most finished rider is the proverbial razor in the hands of a monkey." - LT Col Harry Chamberlin

After the Civil War, when former cavalrymen (and others) spread west, they took their training with them - training that emphasized natural balance. Collection was to be temporary and used for specific purposes, followed by release. 

When used by large numbers, higher collection resulted in more horses breaking down. Therefor, the cavalry emphasized natural balance. It also emphasized a deep, static seat - one that cowboys used for many decades afterward.










French Hussars Review by Edouard Detaille 1879 Oil



















_A cowboy on a cutting horse working yearlings out of a herd. LS Ranch, Texas_, 1907










_One of the OR cowboys posed on his white pony with the herd in the distance. OR Ranch, Arizona._, 1909

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide


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## IPHDA

Ruby, we would love to have you join IPHDA and yes it is a fun event and a learning experience, which is why I like the idea of western dressage, learning in a progression. But NRHA is right in saying that Western dressage wont help a person learn to be a Reiner and also in that if the video's we see associated with western dressage are any example it isn't all that willing either.

I like the video's by Ethan and jack but any of the others look forced and there is no room for forced in any type of riding.

I think the reason that WD is getting the negative feed back is because of a few things, first the video's you see when you do a google search are not all with Jack and Etan, and frankly some of that instruction /demo's are very forced and the horse is intimidated short strided and everything that dressage is not and everything that good western training is not as well.

That is why I think until Western dressage has more competitions and allows trainers to show their stuff against others there will be people taking advantage of the publicity that WD is getting to promote themselves and in doing so are not doing WD any favors.

That is why IPHDA hosts WD schooling shows to not only allow anyone that is interested in trying it a chance but also to give people who want to help grow the sport with their students a place to show what they can do.

Even though there are only 2 levels at this time watching a person ride a primary level test can be very telling about their training. 

Give WD time and we will all see what it evolves into and it wont be for everyone but I do not think it will get such negative reviews once it grows to include more quality trainers.

Another thing I think may have caused some negative feelings (I know I got a little ticked the first time I hear this) some of the literature out there promoted as western dressage suggests that all us western people have been doing it wrong for so long and WD is now here to save us all, and without a place to show and shove those words down their throats it was a hard pill to swallow. I have since gotten over it because I think the concept of learning in stages is a great one hope more people realize it when WD grows, it wont make PHD such a new thing in the western industry like we have been for 5 years .
'
Rod


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## raywonk

Rheiner did you know Bill passed away last year. I actually live 8 miles from where he lived. He was something else to talk to I wish I could just absorb all is knowledge just by being near him or his daughter.


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## IslandWave

And here I thought Western Dressage was just riding a test in a saddle with a horn and a curb bit. :lol:

(Slightly unrelated, but I have a not-so-secret dream to ride a dressage test at a show bareback on my horse with just a halter and lead rope. Bareback dresage anyone?)


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## IPHDA

Ray Wonk are you sure you are not talking about Dale Wilkinson? he lived in Georgia and was the grand father of reining and he passed last year or so, The guy NRHA was referring to was Bill Horn and I am pretty sure he is still alive and kicking and he is the father of NRHA! )

Rod


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## raywonk

you know You are right I new him as Mr. Wilkinson was not going to try and spell that name. I thought he had a hand in both but I am not an expert. I had asked him about his history and he told me he was just a man who loved horses.


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## Bugs Bunny

After reading this entire debate, I have been trying to pick a side. Defending or attacking western dressage. My pick: inconclusive.

Honestly, western dressage needs to pick a real path before I will make a real decision on it. They will face many challenges if they want the respect of any of us. However, you have to realize that it is human nature to not accept change at first.

I have to completely agree with the member who brought up the point of saying they have to figure out which side they're going to take more points from. Do they want piaffes or rollbacks? If you take more from the western side or more from the English side, you might as well just switch to that discipline. It'll be really interesting to me to see how they sort that one out.

Really, only time will tell. Though it's vastly growing it's still a small organization. Until they add the upper level tests, we really won't know where they want to go with this.


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## DarkBucephalus

Western dressage? I thought that's what reining was!


Seriously though...Western Dressage? I've never even heard of it, and beings that a large majority of my roots are western riding, I am highly interested to know what it is exactly? Are there any videos? A website with information? etc etc


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## Jax

I probably got western dressage all wrong in my head, but either way I like what I got from it. To me it's more training than a style on its own. I found that teaching western horses (particularly western pleasure horses) dressage moves is useful. I'll admit all that probably really changed was that I started training in more of a reining style, but since I had no formal training and was surrounded by very... close- minded... western pleasure riders, I didn't make the connection till later. Anyways, what I saw of western dressage wasn't a style itself, but a way of connecting two disciplines that many in the horse world seem to think are very different. For me it was a way of explaining how no matter the style, horseback riding is horseback riding and being well rounded and understanding of that concept will help your horse career. Like I said, I didn't even realize it was becoming its own separate style till I read this post. I thought it was just big name trainers trying to open peoples minds up. For the people on this forum, that probably means nothing, but for the idea-less horse people like I was and those who are around me, it was a new realm of thought... that's it.


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## quarterhorse

I think there is nothing wrong with western dressage. In the video that horse has slack compared to english dressage. I come from a dressage hunter/jumper background. I am a horse trainer as well. I do colt starting, natural horsmanship, problem solving, foundation training for the english and western horses. I teach all my horse to collect in a nice frame. Also when I pick up the reins they bring there head in. since I teach them this they dont need martingales or tie downs. They also learn to keep there pole level with the saddle horn when the riens are completly loose. By teaching the horse a combination of both worlds he or she is ready to move to the next level wether it is reining, barrel racing, dressage, hunter, jumpers, trails and so on.


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## Eliz

There is western dressage in my local dressage chapter, though I only see it at schooling shows.

I guess its fun for younger kids who just have a QH/mutt and a western saddle that they bought with the horse... But no one around here is really serious about it. Like I said its mostly younger kids here.

I can't take it seriously, though. If you want to ride western, go do some horsemanship patterns or something at a western show, not at our dressage show.


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## nrhareiner

quarterhorse said:


> I think there is nothing wrong with western dressage. In the video that horse has slack compared to english dressage. I come from a dressage hunter/jumper background. I am a horse trainer as well. I do colt starting, natural horsmanship, problem solving, foundation training for the english and western horses. I teach all my horse to collect in a nice frame. Also when I pick up the reins they bring there head in. since I teach them this they dont need martingales or tie downs. They also learn to keep there pole level with the saddle horn when the riens are completly loose. By teaching the horse a combination of both worlds he or she is ready to move to the next level wether it is reining, barrel racing, dressage, hunter, jumpers, trails and so on.



This is no different then how a reining horse is started. Again it is more like re inventing the wheel then something new and different. Most reiners I know use Dressage techniques with their reiners. I know I have for years as does my trainer.


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## quarterhorse

I don't believe that you can judge western dressage and English dressage in the same category for they are different styles. It would be a little weird having a western dressage rider come and compete at regionals. I do believe that there is nothing wrong with something new and if it does take off it should have its own category.


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## nrhareiner

quarterhorse said:


> I don't believe that you can judge western dressage and English dressage in the same category for they are different styles. It would be a little weird having a western dressage rider come and compete at regionals. I do believe that there is nothing wrong with something new and if it does take off it should have its own category.



That is just it. They are trying to be dressage riders in a western saddle. They are riding with contact like a Dressage rider but with a curb bit. They are trying to mix the 2 and it just does not work. They need to figure out what it is exactly what it is they want out WD.


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## quarterhorse

Maybe that is what they want. They do want to do dressage in a western saddle. I understand that consistant contact with a curb bit is a no no for western but that horse is trained to be light on the bit so when he does pick up the riens lightly the horse tucks his head in. Also it is slightly different from english dressage in the way he uses the riens. i think its a great idea for people who want to do dressage but they dont like the dressage saddle. I would like to see that horse be worked in a pellum bit or a kimberwick bit. They are english bits but they have a curb action to them and they require a chin strap.


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## farmpony84

Bugs Bunny said:


> After reading this entire debate, I have been trying to pick a side. Defending or attacking western dressage. My pick: inconclusive.
> 
> Honestly, western dressage needs to pick a real path before I will make a real decision on it. *They will face many challenges if they want the respect of any of us.* However, you have to realize that it is human nature to not accept change at first.
> 
> I have to completely agree with the member who brought up the point of saying they have to figure out which side they're going to take more points from. Do they want piaffes or rollbacks? If you take more from the western side or more from the English side, you might as well just switch to that discipline. It'll be really interesting to me to see how they sort that one out.
> 
> Really, only time will tell. Though it's vastly growing it's still a small organization. Until they add the upper level tests, we really won't know where they want to go with this.


Wow....


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## Eliz

I just think it is pointless! If you really want to do dressage, buy an english saddle and do it right! I mean, if it is no different than english dressage, what is the point?! It is the same exact sport, different tack.

It would be like english barrel racing. Just someone too lazy (or whatever the excuse may be) to buy western tack.


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## Jax

this argument is so humorous, it displays human nature beautifully. I want to stay indifferent, but it's just so hard. I've gotta say, I see a difference in western dressage from regular dressage and either way, let them be. It's not like there's no other silly horse disciplines anyways. The whole show world of horseback riding is a bit ridiculous anyways in my opinion (and i showed for few years and traveled to other states for shows and everything), so let I say let it be. For me its more for training and comprehension purposes anyways.


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## Jax

farmpony84 said:


> Wow....


You along with bugs bunny are awesome.


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## Eliz

Jax,

Let them be? No, I think it is healthy to question things.


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## countercanter

While I am not entirely sure about this whole "western dressage" thing and my opinion on it certainly won't have an influence on where it goes, I must say I do enjoy watching Eitan Beth-Halachmy do what he does, and I guess it can be classified as "western dressage."


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## quarterhorse

That was Beautiful!!!!!


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## Jax

Eliz said:


> Jax,
> 
> Let them be? No, I think it is healthy to question things.


Healthy to question: yes, but you can't honestly preach that when you're tearing apart something new that hasn't even had a chance to make much of a name for itself. Question it, but look at it from all views when you do so. Consider what the question is and whether or not it is even worth you time to question. Question and divulge in a subject 100% before you contradict others opinions. Particularly when all you're really fighting is change.


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## flytobecat

Interesting thread -subscribing


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## shmurmer4




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## ~*~anebel~*~

Re the "western dressage" video from weg.

If any dressage rider showed up to the warm up ring with a frame like that, there would be screams if "rolkur" and "abuse". That horse is far from collected. He is strung out, behind the bit and 4 beating. Everything in that video is just tricks and a heavy handed, bouncing rider, not in any way resembling dressage except to the uneducated eye.

Western dressage would work with modifications to the western saddle allowing the rider to have contact and communication with the horse in the seat AND if they use dressage legal bits. Riding with contact on a curb bit makes me want to smack my head against my desk. In dressage there is a reason pelhams are not even allowed, only snaffle and double bridles. One needs the action if the snaffle to correctly work the horse. Curbs are not meant to carry the same contact as a snaffle. Even in the double only light contact is maintained on the curb, with the majority of the aids happening with the snaffle.

If you want to ride dressage in traditional western tack, try reining. The differences in the tack simply do not allow for English style ringing in western tack and vice versa.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farmpony84

I googled western dressage and from what I'm seeing, it's a purely morgan breed show thing.

What you are seeing in that video is not a "western dressage" horse but a reiner.....


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## shmurmer4

No way!? For serious?! Kidding.



It just shows the comparisons between reining and dressage, not very well but yeah, so I posted it.


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## Eliz

Here are some Western Dressage (aka WTFDressage, lol) pictures from a schooling show in my dressage club :/
GCC-May15-2011/IMG_2251


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## JustAwesome

We have in western showing, dressage, jumping etc..

The dressage tests are done in English saddles.. not western LOL


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