# Unhappy horse and hunter's bump? (long and pic heavy)



## Dawn854 (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi everyone!

Just hours ago, I had the worst ride I've ever had on my horse. I need help.

I bought him two months ago. He's an 11 y/o Thoroughbred gelding. I got him to learn some basic dressage on, he's no schoolmaster, but he has been schooled and I wanted to learn how to take him further.

Today, as soon as I got on him, he was dropping his shoulder and napping towards the gate, bracing against my rein when I tried to bring his head around. He shook his head and pigrooted, bolting sideways, and I couldn't get him to focus. I lost my stirrups, but managed to get him back under control. I dropped my whip immediately, not wanting to make things worse. There was another rider trotting on the road while leading another horse, and my horse was very focused on them. When the rider went out of view, he switched his attention to the cars going by, the truck pulling out of the driveway ahead, the magpies cawing in the next paddock - tuning me out completely! Every time I asked him to walk forward, he would take a few steps and then blow it again, shaking his head, dropping one shoulder, backing up, and bolting forward to let out a small buck.

I kept at it, talking to him, encouraging him forward with my legs, but he only got worse. He began to rear, which he's never done before, and it was only then that I dismounted.

I've ridden him around that paddock many times before, and I couldn't understand why he was so distracted and spooky. I led him on foot around the paddock, letting him look at everything. After a while, when he seemed calmer, I got back on. He was still unhappy, but he walked forward when I asked him to, and when I asked him to trot, he again dropped a shoulder, braced against my reins, and napped towards the gate. I asked him again once I got him straightened out, and his reaction was even more violent - he let out with a small buck, and at that point, I decided I would take no more.

Desperate to end on a good note, I got off him again and walked him around the paddock, since he seemed quite happy to do that. I ended things after that.



So - there's a problem. Or maybe a few.

He's got absolutely no muscle on him. His withers are pronounced, his spine sticks out, saddle fitting has been a nightmare. After spending a long time searching for saddles, I finally got him in a Tottenham with a medium gullet. I suspect his back is sore, because he swishes his tail when I brush his saddle area.

He wears a French link eggbutt snaffle, and I ride with little or no contact when I'm warming him up. I try to have soft hands and when I ask for a turn, I use leg first and then back it up with rein.

He has a strange bump on his loins, right between where his back meets his rump. I've heard of hunter's bump before - could this be it? Attached are several photos, and I've tried to make them as clear as possible.

Maybe his browband is too small? I know his face is dirty in the photos - that could have caused some irritation to him as well. I had work in two hours and I didn't have time to carefully clean his face - he had mud caked on his ears!

So - without further ado - meet Andy, everyone!


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

He does not look like a happy camper. Could you do more (some) ground work w/him & check the saddle fit when he has a bit more flesh? Had he been ridden out on trials before? Good Luck!


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

He needs groceries and likely a good worming, when were his teeth last floated?


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## Dawn854 (Aug 11, 2013)

He was wormed two weeks ago, and he's being fed sugarbeet and lucerne chaff twice a day. He's a bit of a fretter in the paddock, always moving about, so it's hard to keep the weight on him!

I don't know when his teeth were last done. I should probably look into it. I'm also planning on getting a chiro out to look at his back.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Dawn854 said:


> He was wormed two weeks ago, and he's being fed sugarbeet and lucerne chaff twice a day. He's a bit of a fretter in the paddock, always moving about, so it's hard to keep the weight on him!
> 
> I don't know when his teeth were last done. I should probably look into it. I'm also planning on getting a chiro out to look at his back.


Sounds like a plan. Is he paddocked alone?


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## Dawn854 (Aug 11, 2013)

He is, but there are other horses around, all in their separate paddocks. I'm moving him in a few months to a place where he'll be able to run in a herd - I think he'll be happier in a herd environment!


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Dawn854 said:


> He is, but there are other horses around, all in their separate paddocks. I'm moving him in a few months to a place where he'll be able to run in a herd - I think he'll be happier in a herd environment!


Is he an off the track horse? Does he walk the fenceline? And if so, is it always the same side?


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

He does need more weight, IMO and yes, I'd say the browband is a bit small. I would also check the girth for rubs and fit. It looks to me in the pics that it is possibly pinching him.

Some horses are very stoic and it could be that something has been bothering him without you picking up on his signals and this ride was just the ride where he had enough. Maybe... though that doesn't explain the inattention.

I'd be inclined to get him into better shape, check his teeth as mentioned, and do ground work with him for a week or so. And do the ground work near where you were if you can -- somewhere where things are going on but keep him focused on you by asking him to do things randomly. eg changing direction, speed, stop, walk, move his front, move his haunch. No pattern. 

Maybe something will show itself in the ground work, or maybe after a week off when you ride again, something will show. Some clue that you missed before.


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## showjumperachel (Jul 13, 2013)

My TB's geldings back looked similar to yours a couple of years ago. He was primarily a lesson horse and never had consistent training. At the walk and trot, he rarely bucked which led him to be used for beginners. Unfortunately, in the majority of the lessons he was used for, he would be completely strung out and not using his hind end at all. This led to him having a horrible top line, in addition to a sore back which made him very unhappy. 

To make a long story short, I'm taking him with me when I move and have been exclusivity riding him 5 days a week for the last several months. Boy, what a difference it has made! I'm far from an expert rider or trainer, however consistency goes a long way with horses. If you look at your horses spine, towards the end of his back, his vertebrae look to be elevated, then there is a very slight "down", then back up again. I was actually just talking to a RVT about this today, and she said that instead of a hunters bump, it could be that the muscles around the vertebrae at the back are stressed and tensed which causes that slight raise. Then the "bump" in the back isn't really a bump, it just looks that way because of that slight raise at the end of his spine (if that makes any sense). What I would do (and what I've done for my boy), is lunge him with LOOSE side reins every time before I ride. It really helped him be lighter in the bridle. Then when I get on his back he is warmed up and ready to work, and understand what I am asking from him. When I ride, I ask him to do a LOT of transitions in order for him to engage his hindquarters and lift his back. When (and if) you first try this, be careful of how much you ask of him. Just like people horses get sore and can't be expected to collect and carry us around for a 45 min ride immediately. If you have a trainer, ask her the best ways to help build your horses top line. It takes work, and doesn't happen over night, but is very much worth it in the end. 

I hope this helps somewhat! Good luck to you and your horse and hopefully you don't have any more experiences like the one you just described. Bucking/rearing/bolting horses are never fun to ride.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Hi Dawn. Welcome to the forum. Re browband - yes it does look a bit small. Re hunters bump - yes it looks like he does have a minor one; once you get a bit more muscle on his topline I suspect it won't be noticeable. Good luck with him.


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Hey there fellow kiwi, welcome to the forum. this to me at the moment with our current weather conditions screams grass toxicity, though that could slightly depend on where in the country you are as well.

My horses have gone nuts at the moment as well, since it's coming into spring with all this rain and change in the weather the grass is like rocket fuel for them. Your best friend for that will be Alleviate, or Alleviate C, and Tox Defy. They are brilliant and work best is the alleviate and tox defy are together, but I only feed Alleviate and that seems to do my lot just fine on dairy grass.

Hanley formula is also another good one for putting on weight, I can vouch for that after having my big hipped gelding on it for 6 weeks now and he looks like a house on legs compared to a walking skeleton 6 weeks ago. It also helps add topline and rib coverage as it is basically full of amino acids.

Re keeping weight on him, Lucerne is quite heating, and sugarbeet is just that, sugar. I have had a lot of problems feeding these to my tb. Meadow or Oaten chaff may be a better idea for him, and also, crushed or boiled barley works well to put weight on.

Maybe try Maxi-soy and Crushed/boiled Barley to start with, as well as the Alleviate, and if it is grass/feed causing the issue you should start to see a difference in about a week, if not then I would look into pain. How does he lunge? 

You could try a physio or a chiropractor (depending on where you are I may be able to let you know of some good ones) has his saddle been fitted professionally or have you just put on what seems to be ok? Just remember that as he gains more muscle/topline/weight he will change shape and this will inevitably make his saddle uncomfortable for him when this happens.

Grass toxicity can also cause them to develop sore spots, especially on our NZ grass, my gelding gets a sore back and rump every time he gets toxic, so I have to keep up on the alleviate, which is just magnesium and boron.

PM me if you like, I may be able to help with chiros/physios etc that go to wherever you are


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## Dawn854 (Aug 11, 2013)

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

NorthernMama - you know, you could be on to something about his girth pinching. He has a bare patch on the inside of his elbow - it's been steadily growing for a while. I've asked about it and been told that it's not caused by rubbing, it's some sort of allergy to his own sweat in that area. Either way, his girth might be causing him pain there. I've been keeping a close eye on it to make sure it isn't developing sores, but you never know.

Muppetgirl - yes, he used to race. He raced until he was four, he's nearly 11 now, so it's been quite a while since he's seen a track! He does always pace on the same side of the paddock. He's not an obsessive pacer, he doesn't do it all the time, only when he's excited, like if he sees someone coming with feed or if another horse wanders by. 

showjumperrachel - that's a good idea! I have side reins, and I've been toying with the idea of using them. After today's ride, I was thinking about possibly lunging him before I get on, and lunging him in his spooky area. That way I can get him working and help him see that there's nothing scary. He seems comforted when there's someone on the ground with him.

One thing to remember is that I'm in New Zealand. Down here, spring is on its way. I've been told that spring grass can sometimes cause a horse to act like this. He's never been this bad before, he's usually willing enough to be ridden, so I'm also leaning towards the idea that he's just a bit drunk on new grass!









Here's an older picture of him with some muscle on! This was taken a few years ago under a different owner.


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## Dawn854 (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi Holly!

Good to meet a fellow Kiwi on here! 

You're probably right about the spring grass making him go a wee bit crazy. He normally doesn't behave the way he did today, but I have had problems with him being gate-sour in the past - though I think it had to do with me riding him in a saddle too narrow! I was really disheartened today though, I've had him for two months and basically spent that time trying saddles and only riding occasionally. Today was my second ride in the saddle I've decided to keep, and I've been ecstatic because I thought all my problems were over and I could get on with riding, but when Andy flipped out today, I was pretty crushed!

I've got him on easibeet and a lucerne/meadow chaff mix. He used to get pure meadow chaff, but he got pretty bored eating it, so I've had to mix it with lucerne. I'm interested in possibly using the Hanley Formula, it looks like the complete package! Is Alleviate a vitamin? I'll pop into the feed store sometime and see if I can get a hold of that. Sorry your horses are being nutty too! I guess it can't really be helped at this time of the year.

I live in Hamilton, if you know of any good chiropractors in the Waikato area, I would really appreciate it! I want to completely rule out soreness, especially since I've gone through so many saddles.

Thanks again for your kind reply and I hope you have a great week! 

(tried to PM this to you, but I don't have enough posts here on the forum to do that! Oh well.)


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Dawn854 said:


> Hi Holly!
> 
> Good to meet a fellow Kiwi on here!
> 
> ...



Yeah with all this ever changing weather the grass is a bit like rocket fuel, so I feel your pain, I have a 10yo tb and a 9yo tb, both are a little funny so I have them on Alleviate and that seems to take the edge off.

I feel you on the disheartening front, but keep your chin up you'll get it sorted eventually, I got my gelding in December 2010, and for almost the first year I battled with bucking issues, saddle fit, hoof abscesses and grass issues, but it does get better! And now I have a mare who has a dodgy past, so progress is slow, but any progress is good!

Keep in mind that 2 months is only a very short period of time, I have no doubt he is still testing the waters with you, finding out what he can get away with, so keep your head up and keep soldiering though it.

Lucerne is pretty heating, so personally I don't use it, but how long have you had him on it for? It could be giving him that bit extra energy to use in his own non-constructive way.

Just make sure that your saddle isn't too tight with that extra pad you have in there, because if the saddle fits by itself then all the pad is essentially doing is making the saddle narrower which may be pointless unless the saddle is slightly too wide. If your worried about saddle fit, take some photos of the saddle on him without a pad and post them up here, there are some pretty knowledgeable and helpful folks around 

I used easibeet (different to sugarbeet, less sugar content) and had great results with it, the only reason I stopped was because I ran out and didn't need it in my feed mix anymore :lol:

Hanley formula is very good, I've seen great results and I can try to PM you before and after photos when I have some if you like, my gelding is on Pollard and Bran(I don't recommend either, will explain in a minute) he is also on crushed Barley - Can be heating but it isn't affecting him, he is also on Dunstans Extruded rice, and Hanley formula.
The reason I don't recommend Pollard and Bran, is because the calcium to phosphorus Ratios in Bran is 1:20, a healthy level is 1:1-2, so essentially the body will pull calcium out of any resources it can, ie, bones. I only found this out the other day so I will be changing to maxi-soy which I have seen work very well on a friends thoroughbred.

Alleviate is basically just Magnesium and boron, because a lot of the time our horses in NZ get low in Magnesium easily due to the soil which causes behavioural issues and sore spots etc, if that doesn't work then I would suggest either Tox Defy or Graze Ezy, they are toxin binders and basically surround the bad stuff in a protective bubble until the horses excrete them, so therefore the toxins in the grass don't effect the horse, or shouldn't, theoretically.

That's ok, I can handle my nutty horses, I'm only 18 so I still bounce well, and I hold on even better :lol: plus I've worked out a combo that keeps my horses heads about as attached to their necks as possible at this time of year.

I'll have to ask my farrier that one, he lives in Hamilton though I do not live anywhere near Hamilton. I do know of one that travels and is very good, I have used him on my own horses with extremely good results. His name is Nick Birch, though I will PM you his details since I don't give out those sorts of things in public 

that's alright, it's good to see another kiwi on here and I'll help where I can, though i'm no expert by any means!


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## Dawn854 (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi everyone!

I had a horsey friend of mine come out and help me with Andy today. We lunged him first, and he was quite good, apart from a few tantrums just to see what he could get away with!

I got on him after a while and we did some trot work, doing serpentines, figure eights, etc. He was doing amazingly well, reaching for the bit, using his hindquarters, and being soft in my hands. After spending a fair amount of time doing that, I cued him to canter, and boy did he throw a tantrum! He took off across the field, bucking, and I pulled his head around so that he couldn't buck quite as effectively. I kept him going, didn't let him rest, and tried again, and this time he went for me, though not without some protest. I changed rein and continued asking him for canter/trot transitions, and it was the last tantrum that got me. I fell off and I've done in my ankle. 

But some positives came out of today. I know that he's very capable of doing some nice dressage when asked to, and I know that I've been way too soft on him! He's a spoilt little brat! I'm still going to get the chiro out to look at him, but it looks like we're stuck with lunge work for a while - just until I get the all clear to ride again. I haven't gone in yet for xrays but I think I've either broken or torn something.  Uggghh this is NOT what I need right now!

Anyways, thanks for all your help!

For those who are interested, here are some photos of Andy hard at work today! And photos of him being naughty.  The girl isn't me, when it's my turn in the saddle, she doesn't remember to take photos!


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## HollyBubbles (Jun 22, 2009)

Oh no, not your ankle!
Best you go and get it xrayed, I did my wrist around 3 months ago now and it's still not right, I didn't break it but I tore a ligament in my thumb and so it is now detached from my thumb completely, so I am waiting on surgery. Go and get yourself checked!

And that's good you had a friend come out to help, that's always a bonus, especially when you know that your horse can behave when made to!

Did you get my PM? not sure if you have or if your able to reply since your only a new member still, but I did send one


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