# why shake the leadrope to back your horse explained



## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Hmm that's interesting! I was always taught NOT to shake a rope at a horse but I'm an English rider and have no need to rope cattle ;D
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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Maybe practical for that purpose but not for 99% of what an every day horse person needs to do with their horse.

For instance, a tie down roper wants their horse to back until the pressure is tight on the rope. That would be highly impractical and even dangerous in other areas of horse handling.

I step into my horse, he backs. If I need him to back (such as out of the trailer or tie stall), I simply say 'back'.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I actually have taught Cinny both methods and have found uses for both methods. I ride Dressage. I like the versatility of being able to tell him more than one way if I have to. I have also taught him to come close to me with a couple different commands as well.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That's interesting. I never gave it a thought, but that explanation is very elegant.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

That's very interesting.. I like hearing and learning about how things are what they are, especially to do with older methods of ranching and whatnot.



mls said:


> Maybe practical for that purpose but not for 99% of what an every day horse person needs to do with their horse.
> 
> For instance, a tie down roper wants their horse to back until the pressure is tight on the rope. That would be highly impractical and even dangerous in other areas of horse handling.
> 
> I step into my horse, he backs. If I need him to back (such as out of the trailer or tie stall), I simply say 'back'.


I agree.

Though I've spent all this time teaching my horse to stand still and trust the handler and those around him.. I don't want him mis-interpreting a shake of the rope to back. I prefer to voice it or use my body language.

Like I said in another thread, a parelli handler was trying to teach my horse to back (he was just showing me how any horse is trainable to the methods) and my horse got very frightened and very confused then frustrated and he backed, but it was more like a shuffle where he was leaning on his hinds rather than stepping. I don't dislike the shaking of the rope, I just didn't find it very helpful.

Maybe one day we'll try it again, but right now I have no need for it. I'm very open to trying new things with my horse


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## Mike Zimmerman (Oct 30, 2011)

mls said:


> Maybe practical for that purpose but not for 99% of what an every day horse person needs to do with their horse.
> 
> For instance, a tie down roper wants their horse to back until the pressure is tight on the rope. That would be highly impractical and even dangerous in other areas of horse handling.


The horse does keep it tight, once you back them up until the slack is out they'll hold it tight as long as you need.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

My horse was taught to back up by shaking the rope, but, as the four phases were used, he now backs up if I just raise a finger and say "back up!" if necessary - as a warning that I will start shaking the rope with my palm in a couple of seconds. 

But the origins of the rope shaking is a very interesting fact to know, thanks!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

It was interesting to read, Mike. However I still don't get why you have to shake it to basically whack the horse's jaw with it like some NH trainers do (not saying every trainer does/teach it this way)?

I also think mls brought some good points.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

It's a handy wee trick to have if you're ever in a situation where you need to be operating a gate, have the horse in one hand while holding onto something else, or some other sort of multitasking activity. Also useful for awkward bloody gates where if you had to move your body into your horse to get it to step back out of the way, it would be even more awkward. I just wiggle the rope at my horse and say "back" and back she goes.

Edit: There was no "whacking" to teach her this. She already knew how to back and I just attached the wiggley rope to my other back command (stepping towards her chest) until she understood the meaning of the wiggley rope and would back off the wiggley rope alone. Easy. And not traumatic at all.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

thesilverspear said:


> Edit: There was no "whacking" to teach her this. She already knew how to back and I just attached the wiggley rope to my other back command (stepping towards her chest) until she understood the meaning of the wiggley rope and would back off the wiggley rope alone. Easy. And not traumatic at all.


I'd be willing to try this way..


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

thesilverspear said:


> Edit: There was no "whacking" to teach her this.


silver, I didn't mean anyone here. :wink: I've seen several trainers (on youtube as well as during live demonstrations) to do it to "teach" horse to back up. Personally I don't think it's a right approach.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Mike Zimmerman said:


> The horse does keep it tight, once you back them up until the slack is out they'll hold it tight as long as you need.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Which as I said would be impractical and dangerous in many situations.

We have a new boarder's horse who is TERRIFIED of the rope moving. Boarder is going to have a heck of a time undoing the damage that was done to the horses way of thinking.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

mls said:


> Maybe practical for that purpose but not for 99% of what an every day horse person needs to do with their horse.
> 
> For instance, a tie down roper wants their horse to back until the pressure is tight on the rope. That would be highly impractical and even dangerous in other areas of horse handling.
> 
> I step into my horse, he backs. If I need him to back (such as out of the trailer or tie stall), I simply say 'back'.


I am confused as why this is impractical and dangerous, would you mind elaborating?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

COWCHICK77 said:


> I am confused as why this is impractical and dangerous, would you mind elaborating?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You want your horse to keep the rope tight at all times?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

mls said:


> You want your horse to keep the rope tight at all times?


I don't think that's what they were getting at..


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

mls said:


> You want your horse to keep the rope tight at all times?


Yes, if I am doctoring cattle I want my horse to hold the rope tight. If I need him to step up to loosen my rope so I can get it off his neck onto his front feet then I would ask him to step forward with a light tug of my get down rope or mecate lead. As soon as I have my rope where I want it then I would ask him to step back to tighten my rope and hold my steer/calf with a wiggle of my get down rope/lead until it is tightend. Once the rope is tight and I quit wiggling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

mls said:


> Which as I said would be impractical and dangerous in many situations.
> 
> We have a new boarder's horse who is TERRIFIED of the rope moving. Boarder is going to have a heck of a time undoing the damage that was done to the horses way of thinking.



A loose or slackened rope is going get you in more trouble than a tight one when you've got something roped. But I am not sure what a tight rope has to do with shaking a lead to get your horse to back up to tighten your rope. If I have a steer on the ground and I have a front leg held up to keep him from getting up, how am I going to get my horse to back up to take the slack out of my rope to hold the steer down? I can't get off the steer walk to my horse and back him up manually to tighten my rope, I have to be on the steer with his front legs to make sure it stays in the correct position to hold. The rope must be around the pasterns with the feet crossed and preferably my hondo on the bottom.

I am sorry your boarders horse is terrified of the rope, I think you should blame the previous handler, not the method....this many cowboys can't be wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Chick, exactly. 

A horse that has been properly trained to the rope (which, BTW, if they are afraid of it, they have not been properly trained), is an invaluable tool to a working cowboy (or girl :wink. To be able to down a calf/steer/cow on the rope, tie off to the horn, and step off to go down to doctor it is a commonly taught, and much sought after ability in a good horse.

We do it a bit differently though as we don't ride with mecate sets. We call the horse forward by pulling on the actual rope, smooching, and saying "Come here". To stop them is a simple "Whoa" and to back them up is "Back up".

Mike that is interesting. Even though I knew about the roping thing, I never really connected it with the *******ized NH version. I guess you learn something new every day.


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## Lauradod (Nov 28, 2011)

Saranda said:


> My horse was taught to back up by shaking the rope, but, as the four phases were used, he now backs up if I just raise a finger and say "back up!" if necessary - as a warning that I will start shaking the rope with my palm in a couple of seconds.


 
That's helpful to know - I am still working on backing up with CAs four phases for backing up (mostly wiggling/shaking the rope), and would like to work toward a better warning. 

Thanks for the info Mike, it's great to learn the origins of strategies we use.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm not roping calves. My horses rarely wear a halter and lead. They back up with one hand like as stop sign and the other finger wagging toward the chest.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Saddlebag said:


> I'm not roping calves. My horses rarely wear a halter and lead. They back up with one hand like as stop sign and the other finger wagging toward the chest.


Do you mean you don't use a halter and lead to catch your horse, or do you not leave your halter and lead on under your bridle when you ride?

I just want to clarify that I never ride with a halter under my bridle. When I am talking about my lead I am talking about one, the mecate tail on a snaffle or hackamore setup, or two, my get down rope which is tied around his neck and ran through a bosalita.
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## rockinD (Jun 29, 2011)

My understanding of it is that everything you're doing "on-lead" during the seven games is setting the foundation for doing the same activities at liberty. So while it seems very exaggerated on-lead and while first learning, the end result is a subtle communication between horse and person.

The way I was taught PNH backing with the rope wiggling, we DO use body language as well...facial expression, body stance, etc. I was also taught to hold my finger up while going through the backing phases (phases as necessary) which makes a "no-no" type gesture. This ends up being the cue for backing at liberty (the no-no gesture). 

The same applies for the motion used to collect the line back up to retrieve your horse. Using that same motion at liberty is the cue for the horse to come back in to you.


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## Soulofhorse (Jan 7, 2012)

I worked with a several horses that just didn´t understand shaking the leadrope. If the pressure was raised to uncomfortable the only answer was elevating head and in some cases step forward instead of backing up.
My mare was tought to back up by shaking the leadrope and now she reacts on raised hand and voice command, so there definitely are horses suitable with this method.
However many people don´t like it and want me to teach their horses to back up by different means, so I use waving a carrot stick towards horses chest (starting far enough for horse to see what I´m doing, then slowly approach until the carrot stick is bumping the horse and finally increasing the pressure until the horse answers). 
Well, every horse needs an individual approach.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

I find it incredibly easy to use a wiggly rope to back them up. It's effective for my younger students because there is no strength required. The clip only hits under the jaw if the horse is completely ignoring. Often when teaching I will team it with another method such as carrot stick. I like it because I can have that strength to back it up if need be.


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## CowgurlUp91 (Jan 18, 2012)

mls said:


> Maybe practical for that purpose but not for 99% of what an every day horse person needs to do with their horse.
> 
> For instance, a tie down roper wants their horse to back until the pressure is tight on the rope. That would be highly impractical and even dangerous in other areas of horse handling.
> 
> I step into my horse, he backs. If I need him to back (such as out of the trailer or tie stall), I simply say 'back'.


Not necessarily true. In my case, I have a huge mare who is way more dangerous when someone is close enough to back her up a different way.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> .... I just want to clarify that I never ride with a halter under my bridle. When I am talking about my lead I am talking about one, the mecate tail on a snaffle or hackamore setup, or two, my get down rope which is tied around his neck and ran through a bosalita.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would you elaborate on your get down rope and bosalita setup please. Maybe post a picture? 

I've tried tying a line in a bowline knot around the neck for a get down rope, but it moves around and sometimes a rein catches on the knot.

Thanks


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

anndankev said:


> Would you elaborate on your get down rope and bosalita setup please. Maybe post a picture?
> 
> I've tried tying a line in a bowline knot around the neck for a get down rope, but it moves around and sometimes a rein catches on the knot.
> 
> Thanks


Sure, like the picture below, you run it through the bosalita. 
Just a note, this is not my horse. I don't like browband headstalls on bridle bits.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

OK, thanks. So a bosalita is used with a bit set up, like a cavesson? And the get down rope could also be used to apply some nose/poll pressure?

What would be the pros and cons of running the get down line behind the curb strap and not putting the bosalita on?

Thanks again


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

anndankev said:


> OK, thanks. So a bosalita is used with a bit set up, like a cavesson? And the get down rope could also be used to apply some nose/poll pressure?
> 
> What would be the pros and cons of running the get down line behind the curb strap and not putting the bosalita on?
> 
> Thanks again


No problem!

I imagine that running the get down in between the curbstrap and chin would be uncomfortable for the horse while the bit is in use. Also running it through the curb would kinda defeat the porpose of using one at all. The idea is not to lead the horse by the bridle reins to preserve the mouth. If it was ran through the curb then it would interfere with the bit while leading.

I can't really think of any pros...
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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Oh, just using the bosalia alone is for a horse that is a true bridle horse, the step before would be using the bridle bit a long with the bosalita setup with a mecate in the two rein. So once the horse graduates to just the bridle bit then the mecate is taken off the bosal and used as a get down tied around the neck and ran through the bosalita.

I hope that makes sense...when I get home I will post some pics.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> No problem!
> 
> I imagine that running the get down in between the curbstrap and chin would be uncomfortable for the horse while the bit is in use. Also running it through the curb would kinda defeat the porpose of using one at all. The idea is not to lead the horse by the bridle reins to preserve the mouth. If it was ran through the curb then it would interfere with the bit while leading.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's pretty much what I thought too, appreciate your opinion now I'll stop thinking about it at all.




COWCHICK77 said:


> Oh, just using the bosalia alone is for a horse that is a true bridle horse, the step before would be using the bridle bit a long with the bosalita setup with a mecate in the two rein. So once the horse graduates to just the bridle bit then the mecate is taken off the bosal and used as a get down tied around the neck and ran through the bosalita.
> 
> I hope that makes sense...when I get home I will post some pics.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It makes sense, thanks again.

And so not to totally hijack this thread - I do wiggle the line to get a back up when I am at a distance from my horse. I start with a wiggle of the finger, then say back and would progress to more vigorous wiggling and stronger body language if needed.

I cut the metal ends off my lines years ago, even the long lines, and tie them on the loops of the rope halters. Save for a lead rope or two to use for trailering.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

When I was in school we had to study Algebra. It didn't take very long for me to realize that unless a person was going to be an engineer or astro-physicist or something along those lines you really don't need as much algebra as was required. The purpose of the algebra was to teach the student to THINK and solve problems. That's similar to why you would teach a horse to back when you put life in the lead rope. You're teaching the horse to look for the release of the pressure. Every time you teach a horse to give to pressure you're making it easier the next time. If you're not getting the response you want from the horse and you're giving up then you're making it more difficult the next time. ANY horse can learn to back with a wiggle in the rope. You don't have to have a clip hitting the horse in the jaw and you really don't have to escallate very much either. I have no hardware at all on any of my halters and I don't want to spend a lot of time swinging a rope around either. I use wwhatever methods work to get the horse backing up in addition to the wiggle and then I use less and less until all I need is the wiggle.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

A trainer I used once, used this method, as does most everyone I come across. The trainer was really big on making the horse she's training as soft as possible. In the beginning the horse needed quite a bit of force, as she had very little ground manners. As time went on, the amount of wiggle needed in the rope was an indication of her progress. It made a lot of sense for training purposes. That was not the ONLY method of backing that she was taught either, there were at least 3 that were included in her training.


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