# This was UNACCEPTABLE!



## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Every time I punish Luca for nipping (he always wants to be the boss of everything, but I'm teaching him that I am actually the "boss"...well..I'm trying.) I give him a sharp little slap on the nose. But every time I do this, he does something unacceptable. 




He fights back :shock::shock::shock:

Yes...he fights back. He bares his teeth, lunges at me and tries to bite again. THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!!! But what can a 13 year old, small for her age girl do about this? He doesn't do it to anything else because he knows everyone else doesn't want him to do anything, while I am his trainer and rider, the one who looks small, but wants him to do stuff. He is unsure about that, that's why he keeps trying to scare me to see what I'm really made of and if I can really stay in the BOSS position. 

Who knows of a different type of punishment for nipping and putting his ears back in a threatening manner? Should I give a sharp loud yell of "NO!" instead? Think it would work? Or should I do something else. He knows that he has a stronger body than me, but I have to show him that I have more wits than him for me to be respected by him. I'm just so appalled that he fights back. He obviously knows that he can do more damage than me. :shock: Help!!! I must show him somehow that I AM AND THAT I WILL ALWAYS BE the BOSS! I am So frustrated.............he doesn't ALWAYS nip and pin his ears back...only when his paddock mate is near. Sensible suggestions needed. Hmmm...now that I think of it...crazy suggestions can go, too, anything that can help :? What can I do to show Luca that I am the ultimate boss...without him attacking me? 
Thank you,
~Dreamcatcher5 :shock:


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## TheAQHAGirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Instead of slapping him in the nose try backing up him. Hard.

He sounds like he needs a lot more respect from you. Do you know of any trainers in your area?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Make him move his feet. You control the feet, you control the brain. What would a boss mare do if he were to do to her what he's doing to you? You can bet your britches she'd make him think the world was about to end...by making him MOVE! The second he goes to bite you, instead of a slap, make him back up...or yield his hindquarters...or his forequarters...or lunge around you. Anything to make him move. If he doesn't want to move, take a dressage whip or crop or carrot stick (I prefer the dressage whip or carrot stick, personally) and MAKE him move.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Serenity616 (Oct 6, 2012)

A horse that knows it's power/strength is definitely scary! I would recommend not hitting him on the nose though. That can often lead to a headshy horse. :???: I would try making him move his feet or back up. Best of luck to you!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

As was said already, move his feet. But do it AS IF YOU WILL EAT HIM ALIVE RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT, HAIR SKIN AND HOOVES. Not half heartedly. Make yourself big and wide as a house and make him move. Don't wait....the slightest thread from him has to trigger your reaction. You have three seconds!


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

Size and age are only a limitation when it's an extreme. Our daughter, now 8, broke her first pony from unhandled to riding mostly by her self when she was 6. She also tought her new pony ground manners, which were horrible to say the least and the pony is stubborn as all heck. Consistance, and meaning full handling is key. Your lead rope can be a very effective training tool. My first and foremost suggestion would be to stop with the nose smacking. It's just annoying to him and isn't followed by anymore correction. If a horse bites, it gets full on slugged around here, givin your small stature and probly not a mike Tyson punch, your other option is the always handy lead rope. Turn to face him (still in the leading position) and lace him with the lead across the chest. And mean it! You're not going to physically hurt him. And drive him back hard and fast. As far as you can really. Make him know you're done playing. And never let him get away with anything. Another helpfull tool, no more treats from your hand, no more hugs n kisses, a scratch on the neck or side but keep YOUR space yours. That's my Internet suggestion and worth what it cost.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DoubleKCustoms (Sep 24, 2012)

What I do with my horses or any horse that I work with (permission permitting), I tell them "No!" or "Uh-uh!" really loud, but not yelling, if they bite or try to do something bad. I call it my "mom voice." Then if they try it again, I say "No!" & give a slap. I'd rather have a slightly headshy horse than missing fingers... & if they test you again, you say no, turn at them and back until they know what they did wrong.

Horses are very big, strong animals. When they realize that, things can get dangerous really quick. If you find that he isn't reacting well to your slaps, I'm not sure if they're hard or not, but maybe carry around a crop & smack his chest or something to see if that makes a different.

We don't want them to fear us, but they need to know that we can play rough too.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

It sounds like you're not really 'correcting' you're 'annoying'. You're a fly to your big, strong animal, you need to do more than a slap on the nose. Make him move, back him up and discipline him, but make sure you're prompt about it. Another option is a good, sharp jab to the nose if you're not comfortable working / getting in his face about it. Avoid the issue of a horse becoming headshy by making it appear as if your horse ran himself into your elbow / fist, horses don't register 'wow, my mean owner hit me' and if it's not repetitive / abusive it wont become a headshy habit. But you need to really reinforce it, not 'nag'. A slap wont do the trick, but your horse running hard into your elbow might make them think twice, if that makes sense. Like you said, you're not very big, hence not very strong. A slap will do nothing.


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

I just read some excellent suggestions above, and totally agree! Size doesn't matter - (I'm only 5ft tall), and absolutely_ love_ my horses, but my QH, who's an alpha, will challenge me at times. I've learned how to "Out Alpha" her, and it definately works!_ Respect first_, then all the fun, love, nuzzles, etc always follow! Best of luck  *I have to add to the suggestion of no nose slapping - be firm otherwise, and work his feet. Give a "NO NONSENSE HERE!" demeanor.


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

No hugs and kisses???? That's impossible :shock: I could never live without hugging my poneh...but I don't give him any treats anymore and this seems to improve his behaviour. ah, I forgot to say, he only does this when he's not haltered, only when I approach him on the paddock with nothing with me. Oh...and anything physical I do to punish him makes him furious and he attacks back. But I will try yelling loud at the same time so that it's like a double blow, so that he forgets to attack again. I will try....I'll keep you updated on him!


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

OP, I think what Phly meant was, "No more hugs and kisses" immediately - When greeting your horse at the gate/pasture/stall, etc. if your horse is that agressive, then a firm yet gentle hand/voice is needed right away to remind him of his place. After respect is succesfully gained, of course hugs and kisses can follow - Please remember this is a huge animal weighing 1,100 lbs, and whether we like to think of it or not, we could be killed instantly if things go wrong. Your horse will not think you're "mean" if you handle him firmly and withhold the nuzzles until after. He'll be more like, "Hey, she's my leader, and I respect her!".


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

See..I've never ended up with a headshy horse, but everytime I've handled a horse that nipped, they got hit wherever I could (usually the face).

Dude tried pinning me again the wall in his stall and biting and he got a full on punch to the face. Never again tried to bite me, nor was he headshy.

Lucky tried to bite me twice (a longish break between the times I saw her). First time she got a BIG shank with the chain (working on showmanship/halter) and run backwards across the arena. Second time she got my elbow as hard and fast as I could because I'd have missed her if I hadn't been so fast and hard, I was trying to pick her hoof. Never was she headshy with me, only others that would poke or slap her when she tried to bite.

Fancy tried to lunge and bite me..She got knuckles smack dab in her nose and bared teeth. Never was she headshy, I could hug and pet her face anytime I wanted.

Sweet Thing tried to bite me three times. My fault because usually less is more with her and I only stuck my finger in her face or smacked her lightly. I got fed up and actually hit her the third time, never again did she try to bite me, not even a nibble.

Alahna tried to bite me once so far..She got a huge shank on the chain in time with an elbow and run backwards. Hasn't done it since.

I won't say it will work for every horse (especially if they're use to fighting back), it's just what has worked with me and the people's horses I learned from. Me punching is nothing that's going to do any permanent damage to a horse.

I do agree with the moving of the feet though. But, if that didn't work I'd try punching him as hard as you could (seeing as you're a young female and I'm assuming you don't work out and lift too much lol) and see if he still tries to fight back after that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Since this is happening only when he is untacked and in the paddock, backing him in a typical manner won't work. I would never approach him in the paddock without some kind of a tool that can instantly make me bigger and give me a longer reach. If he does ANYTHING agressive at all, react immediately and react big and react fast. The bigger the threat, the bigger the reaction but it must be immediate. Don't wait for the nip. 

React big means varying levels of arms in the air, loud voice (not screaming, but LOUD - practice this away from him. Try to keep your voice at a speaking level or lower pitch and think MAD). Use of a long whip makes you much bigger. Use of a crop is helpful. I had a stallion that I would never approach without a target tipped arrow in my hand. He was not allowed to approach me any closer than the length of my arm and the arrow combined. If he did, he walked into the tip of the arrow. That thing hurt. 

What is his body language before he nips you? Sounds to me like he is being territorial. Does he approach you or do you approach him? How old is he? Is he gelded? How many other horses are in the paddock when you go there?

Also, keep good tabs on his behavior at all other times. Don't let him get away with any dominating behaviors at all. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Yelling won't so anything. You have to think like a horse, especially if he's loose. You're gonna have to move his feet. Take a lunge whip, dressage whip or carrot stick with you into the paddock. He puts one toe out of line and you get after him like white on rice. Make him think the world is ending. Don't hit him. Heck, don't even touch him with the whip unless he comes at you. But MAKE. HIM. MOVE!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Lol the thing is.....I'm actually quite strong although not many people believe me...but Luca is stronger. Something I've found that every time I approach him and he puts his ears back, I have just started giving him the command to 'stand'. Luca LOVES WORK and groundwork amd LOVES being given a task. :shock: So when he makes his UGLY FACE I just tell him STAND in a firm but gentle voice, just like I do when I do groundwork. He immediately focuses and stands nicely and I tell him GOOD BOY and he relaxes, but waits patiently for me to tell him something else to do. If I start patting and scratching him, he accepts it and relaxes. Strange horsey.

Btw, he is PERFECTLY behaved in-hand, no biting or resistance or alpha behaviour. 

So now I think his mind goes something like this:
IF SHE WANTS ME TO DO A TASK, SHE IS IN CHARGE. or something like that :lol: what do you guys think? Good solution? Or not...?


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Luca is 6 years old, has one paddock mate who is actually an alpha over Luca but not over me, and he's a Standardbred. Very well behaved other than on the paddock. Only is aggressive if the paddock mate is near. Sometimes he comes over to me, but he is less aggressive then, he is worse when I come over to him.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I don't think he gets why you are hitting him on the nose. I agree with all other posters that moving his feet will help instead of just smacking him. He doesn't really see that as a correction from how his reaction is.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Yes, by giving him a task you are taking control. Definitely helps.

Drafty - I disagree. Yelling does help, but only if used in appropriate situations. If we yell all the time at every little thing, of course it means nothing. Yelling is just an elevation of a firm voice, but instaneous and hugely distracting.


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Hmm. When he nips he immediately raises his head to get out of my hands reach...I think he knows I will slap him. Which I won't anymore. But what do you think about giving him the command to STAND. He seems to react to that very well. As soon as I tell him to STAND, he returns to normal mode and does as he is told, standing there in a relaxed way, letting me go near and pat him.


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Yay! Thanks NorthernMama! I'm glad to know that this will help


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

If it were my horse, He would get a good punch to the face instead of a measly slap and then I would move his feet and make him think he was about to meet jesus. 

IF you are fair about said punch ( like ONE well landed punch, Not treating your horse like a speed bag), you won't have to deal with a headshy horse. They quickly learn what earned them that punch, and that your not just a random punch throwing maniac.. 

I have landed many face punches in my years with horses and have never made one headshy.


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

Ok so I didnt read the whole thread before posting.. 

If he bites and then anticipates your slapping by dodging- He thinks its a game... If you cant land a good wack on him then dont attempt it at all, because it reinforces that its a "game".. 

So yeah, I would give a good stern NO! and then make his **** WORK.


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Moving his feet is a good idea....
What do you think about the "stand" method, though?
I think it would save a lot of frustration.
Because for a horse to be punished,meh would have done something frustrating.
But if he just makes a tiny attempt to be aggressive, I tell him to stand and he focuses. That saves a lot of frustration.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

It would seem that a bop on the nose is nothing to him. If I were you, I'd knock the everlasting stuff out of him with the end of a lead rope. Throw a bucket at him, whatever is handy. 

You don't have to be strong, just smart, and we can use any item that is around us at the time. A stick on the ground, a bucket, a lead rope, take off your shoe and throw it at him. 

Your horse is making a mockery of you, and it needs to stop before he hurts you.


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## jannette (Aug 24, 2011)

Dreamcatcher5 said:


> No hugs and kisses???? That's impossible :shock: I could never live without hugging my poneh...but I don't give him any treats anymore and this seems to improve his behaviour. ah, I forgot to say, he only does this when he's not haltered, only when I approach him on the paddock with nothing with me. Oh...and anything physical I do to punish him makes him furious and he attacks back. But I will try yelling loud at the same time so that it's like a double blow, so that he forgets to attack again. I will try....I'll keep you updated on him!


hugs and kisses when he is behaving himself....what others have said about moving their feet is what has to be done..i've done it and it works!!
watch clinton anderson lunging for respect video if you are unsure of were to start..we have 7 horses and we feed together if i wasnt the lead mare lol when i went to feed id get my head kicked in. they know i say get back they do it, respect is everything if you dont have it on the ground, haltered or not, you will not have it in the saddle :-( please give it a try..good luck


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

Dreamcatcher5 said:


> Moving his feet is a good idea....
> What do you think about the "stand" method, though?
> I think it would save a lot of frustration.
> Because for a horse to be punished,meh would have done something frustrating.
> But if he just makes a tiny attempt to be aggressive, I tell him to stand and he focuses. That saves a lot of frustration.


Hey Dreamcatcher, I have read the hole thread, the getting him to move away from you as soon as he gets aggressive is the best addvice. 
Now about your question about "stand" I don't think it will have the affect you are hoping for. In your horses mind everything is about holding and yelding ground. Horses equate holding ground as winning, its all about food. If I am a horse I want all the food I can get. The food (grass) I am standing on is the food I get. If you move me you get my food. Now you are the trainer, you are the leader of the heard, no matter what happens you take ground from any and all horses you do not give ground. Backing away is loseing ground. If your horse nips at you and you back away he wins, if he nips and you stand your ground and so does he the "fight" is not over, if he nips at you and you make him move away YOU WIN. 
There are a lot of ways to make him move away, the tail of your lead rope getting aggresive arm up moving fast. The thing to do is GET BIG!!! make him move. The stand command is not going to get him to move his feet and lose ground. 
At first do this with a lead rope or something in your hand just incase your horse doesn't like losing. Be ready for some ugly looks but best thing is to make him move then invite him back to you like nothing is wrong.
Good luck let us know how you are doing


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I think the standing may not work as well as getting the horse to WORK MORE for their bad behavior. That's more of a correction, IMOP, than asking them to stand still.


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## Whisper22 (Jan 2, 2011)

I'm not sure if you said how old your boy is, but I read something recently that talked about why young horses nip and why slapping them will do very little to get them to stop. Young horses nip instinctively as a way of learning how to do the whole pecking order thing. Young horses together will nip at eachother back and forth until one gives up. By you hitting him after he nips does nothing but make him want to nip you again. Like everyone else has said, you need to get after him and chase him away. Horses are pack animals, and don't like to be alone. If by nipping you he learns he won't get to be by you, he'll stop.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Remember, you wrote title of this thread as "this is UNACCEPTABLE" .
That's the attitude you must carry with you. NO excuses, no mitigation, no maybe I'll ask him to stand, maybe I'll . . . 

It's unacceptable for him to bite you and for this to be allowed to continue. So, with that firm thought, next time he nips at you, you EXPLODE at him. Scare the living daylights out of him. Swing the rope end hard at him , yell, jump up and down. Make him go wth? For something like 8 seconds of a blast of negative energy. He will move his feet, for sure. He'll see you in a whole new light, I guarantee it.

Remember the title of your thread!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If the horse, is tied & he nips at you, moving his feet won't work. The smack on the nose becomes a game, because you've smacked him and he did it again. When a horse lands a bite on me, I punch right on the neck or face, where ever is handy and yell. All it takes is one time, no more biting.


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## deltadawn (Feb 21, 2013)

agreeded with many post here. Light that horse up. maybe have a crop/ carrot stick with u, and as soon as he does this i would hit him in the mouth, then hit his chest repeatedly with the crop/carrot stick telling him to back off!! quickly. John Lions says you have 3 secounds to "kill" your horse once it shows any aggressive behavior.


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Believe it or not...that actually sounds fun....exploding and scaring the living day lights out of my horse....:shock: Today, I went to him (before reading the latest posts on here). He gave me an ugly look but didn't do anything. So I went and stroked his neck while talking in a firm voice, just as a warning to him. He listened to me and relaxed. Okay...he's a weird horse. But I'm happy about what happened. But if he does try to lunge at me, I'll be sure to explode with an over the top war dance screaming THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE!!! YOU WILL PAY FOR THIS, LUCA!!!!! :lol: Trust me, I will. 

I'll keep ya updated!


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Dreamcatcher5 said:


> No hugs and kisses???? That's impossible :shock: I could never live without hugging my poneh...but I don't give him any treats anymore and this seems to improve his behaviour. ah, I forgot to say, he only does this when he's not haltered, only when I approach him on the paddock with nothing with me. Oh...and anything physical I do to punish him makes him furious and he attacks back. But I will try yelling loud at the same time so that it's like a double blow, so that he forgets to attack again. I will try....I'll keep you updated on him!


And that is the crux of your problem. 

And he is not getting furious and attacking back, he is establishing pecking order, and is one upping you.

You are making this worse by the kisses/hugs/slappy slappy deal, as all it is doing is telling him to step it up, and put you in your place.

Continue as you are doing? He will up the ante to strike at you and roll you, if not double barrel you. 

Your handling skills need work, and I would also imagine there are quite a few other things that he is doing to show you that he is in charge, but you aren't experienced enough to recognize them.

And if he is doing this in paddock when loose? I would say something you are doing is extremely irritating to him when you have caught him up, either your riding is sloppy, you are aggravating him, or your voice is pitched too high, and you jabber too much.

There is NO correction that you can do if this is happening when horse is loose, that will not eventually lead to you spitting out a mouthful of your teeth. That is coming, not if, but when.

If any of this is occurring while tacking, before you correct, you need to check saddle fit, bridle fit, and your tacking mechanics, as any and all of this could cause these problems.

Once those have been eliminated, then don't make horse move, or hit or yell. When horse swings around to bite, merely raise up your bent arm and let him run head into point of elbow, while you make no indication that anything has happened. No force with this move. Ignore that it is happening. You can also use a stiff brush in hand, or horseshoe nail between knuckles of hand, so that horse runs muzzle into nail/brush and teaches himself not to do it.

But again, I feel you have a lot of holes in your own skills when it comes to handling horses, and you need to fix those, before you try to fix the horse.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Dreamcatcher5 said:


> . He gave me an ugly look but didn't do anything. So I went and stroked his neck while talking in a firm voice, just as a warning to him.


No! Ugly looks are just as unacceptable as the actual biting! That means he's *thinking* about doing something to you. Unacceptable! He should not even be thinking about challenging you. It should be so firmly imprinted on his min that you are the alpha and you are in charge that challenging you or harming you should be the absolute furthest thing from his mind. And then you go and reward him for making an ugly face (which is what you did, in his mind)? He didn't "do anything" (physical) to you because I his mind, you had already backed down, just by him looking at you. Again, watch a herd of horses...the boss mare will get her way in an established herd, just by throwing out a look (we affectionately call it the mare glare). The rest of the herd knows that if the boss throws out that look, they need to back off. Your horse has, in his mind, done the same as that boss mare. He's so far the alpha that he can get you to do what he wants with just a look now.

If he makes a ****y face at you again, DO NOT back down. Make him think the world is ending, just for *thinking* he can dominate you. If you don't, it's just a matter of time before he decides to up the ante and go after you to put you in your place once and for all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

"He gave me an ugly look but didn't do anything. So I went and stroked his neck while talking in a firm voice, just as a warning to him."

Exactly what did this do to show him you were warning him?

Petting him is the worst thing you can do, because you just showed him that he can act however he wants, and you will reward him.

And this type of handling, or lack of same by owners, is exactly why horses end up in KP, because someone let this type of thing continue.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

With regard to stroking/loving on a horse; if you must, and I totally understand the desire to do so, do it very briefly. Leave him before he gets snarly about it. AND, even if he is enjoying a good scratching from you, leave him before he has had enough. 

If you walk toward him in the paddock and he gives you the stink eye, then do something that makes him break out of that thought. It can be scuffling the ground real loudly, it can be slapping the ground with your leadrope, it can be chucking a rock near him (don't hit him!). Anything that makes him put his ears forward. Then pause, see if he'll look at you with curiosity, turn your body slightly to the side (I mean face your core off to an angle, not straight at him) and see if he'll walk toward you. If he does, stop him when he's about 6 feet away. Use your hand with the rope in it to tell him "Right there". Then you walk up to him, pet him just once or twice, (don't love on him heavily) and you walk away.

This is how you can approach him in the pasture. If when you approach, his "stinkeye" is really bad, then not only do you do something to interrupt his thought, but you do it so strong that he actually moves away from you. But try softer first, such that you can get him to put his ears forward. IF he pins harder, then get big , BIG! and shush him off fast. I bet he'll run a few feet then turn around with curious ears and eyes and say, "who's that? I think she's more important than I thought!"


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Alright, I'm sorry, IM SORRY! :-( I realised I did a big mistake there, by patting him! 

Palomine: my riding is NOT sloppy (at least I don't think so...I take vids) , I speak to him in a calm voice and he actually RUNS over to me when I have a bridle in my hand. He's perfectly behaved when tacking up, and when riding, he thoroughly enjoys it. when he is in a paddock alone, he is also a real gentleman. Never pins his ears back then. But when his paddock mate is with him, he gives me ugly looks. So whenever it's just him and me, he's perfect. But in a group of three, he wants to be the boss. But because Fleet (paddock mate) always bullies him at feed times, (Fleet is the alpha of the two of them) Luca takes his anger out on me.

I GOTTA SHOW HIM THAT HE'S DEALING WITH THE WRONG GIRL :evil:

I practised some "alpha-ing" this morning, when I was feeding the horses. Fleet gets sugar beet because he's in no work and Luca gets coolfeed extra. So they are both eating when Fleet decides that he likes coolfeed more do he goes over to Luca to steal his food. FLEET ABSOLUTELY KNOWS THAT I HATE IT WHEN HE STEALS HIS FOOD. So there I come, war dancing at Fleet, jumping up amd down--and he goes back to his own food and stays there, eating it peacefully. Did I do it right this time  ??? 

Luca was a sweetheart today. I went to tack him up and he ran over to me happily, letting me bridle him with ease. If anyone remembers my thread about Luca making sour faces when trotting in hand, the prob is solved. He now trots nicely with an alert face, not nipping and keeping with me. And if anyone remembers the thread about the strange head dipping, that's solved too.

Somehow I want Luca to have a hissy fit at me so I can show him who's boss once and for all. :shock:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Dreamcatcher5 said:


> Somehow I want Luca to have a hissy fit at me so I can show him who's boss once and for all. :shock:


No no no no. Quit hoping for bad behavior. That is not how an effective trainer thinks. An effective trainer is more like "If he decides to be an ***, I know exactly how to put him in his place so he NEVER does it again! So he learns that his actions were not going to fly with me"

It's not about dominating the horse and getting to be all bossy and mean.. it's about helping the horse understand HIS role in the relationship. He is to respect you, and to listen to your direction.


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

yes...I know :-( I'm just so weird. But thanks for the advice! So if I'm hoping for bad behaviour, I'm attracting that it will happen, right? Oops.... stupid me.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm sorry if I came off as harsh. I just don't want to see you end up getting hurt. I know first hand how quickly letting a horse dominate you can get out of hand and I've had to fix the horse's behavior afterward. 

To give you an idea, my gelding knows that if he even acts like he's thinking of giving me attitude, his a$$ is mine. He tried to give me attitude once when he was turned out. If he could have talked, afterward he would have been saying "I totally thought the world was gonna end and Mom was gonna eat me for dinner!!" He was 15hh and a solid 1200lbs as a 2yo. Now as a coming 4yo, he's 16.2hh and a good 1400lbs. He still thinks I'll have him for dinner if he gives me even an ounce of attitude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cowgirl928 (Feb 4, 2012)

Phly said:


> Size and age are only a limitation when it's an extreme. Our daughter, now 8, broke her first pony from unhandled to riding mostly by her self when she was 6. She also tought her new pony ground manners, which were horrible to say the least and the pony is stubborn as all heck.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your daughter did this at age 6?! I am impressed to say the least! I hope our daughter does this as well.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm glad you're working on fixing it! Clem bit me ONCE, when I first got her and was cinching her up. She got a good smack in the face for it. Never did it again.

Recently, I was out in pasture and one of my BO's horses got all up in my face. I stomped and waved my arm at him - usually sufficient to get a horse to back off, and I don't have to touch it (since it's not my horse). He pinned his ears, raised his head, opened his mouth - And I turned to him, shouted "Don't you even THINK about it!" And stomped at him a bunch of times, whilst flailing my arms about and shouting about how if he even thinks about putting his mouth on me my horse will lay into him because she's a jealous horse who also happens to be queen of the pasture and MUCH larger than him. (She wouldn't really... Probably... But boy does she chase the horses away from me. How DARE they request my attention).

He threw his head and turned and trotted a few steps away with his head down, lip licking. Your case is a bit more extreme, but believe me it does work! And I'm glad it did - not going to lie, it's scary to have a horse act like that to you! Especially when you don't know it very well. I wish you the best of luck with your (sometimes) brat


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Thank you! I'm not going to be able to do anything with him since I'm going to my cousin's birthday dinner. But tomorrow....tomorrow we will see if he's still the sweetheart he was yesterday. :wink:


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Sounds like are you on the right track and boy is it nice to hear someone that can give us information and is willing to read what is written and is willing to try it, no excuses!  Good on you.

I don't know if I would have gotten all that excited at Fleet about the food thing. Your reaction should suit the misbehavior and the horse's existing level of training/response. If Fleet is usually responsive, a firm voice and moving him to his feeding area may have been enough. If you are always in their face, then the effect tends to diminish.

I agree also about the ugly looks -- don't allow them and definitely don't reward them, but you have already indicated that you will be more attentive to that in future. 

I know what you mean about "wanting him to try something," and we know it's the wrong attitude to have, but I hear you about wanting to know that it will work. Being confident in what your reactions will be if/when there is misbehavior will help you, so keep that "I'm ****ed at you" attitude just behind your calm exterior at all time for instant access! 

You know, I've had this same mare for about 7 years now and she is very good, but I am still on the watch at all times for goof ups and hissy days. They still come from time to time and she still gets sh*t for it. Especially those windy spring/fall days when horses tend to forget themselves in the paddock, and my mare will turn her butt to me. She's not doing it out of any aggression, she just forgets, but I still won't allow it. All rules are enforced, always.


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## gambler2007 (Mar 12, 2013)

Serenity616 said:


> A horse that knows it's power/strength is definitely scary! I would recommend not hitting him on the nose though. That can often lead to a headshy horse. :???: I would try making him move his feet or back up. Best of luck to you!


COMPLETELY agree. Do not repeatedly hit a horse on it's face. Their nose is a very sensitive part of their body. Back him up and move his feet. This has been said, but I can put it in some more detail if you want. Yank on his leadrope and say in a firm tone (but not screaming) "Back!". Make him do this for at LEAST five steps and then halt him. Make him stand there. As is normal, he will probably throw up his head and be a general nuisance. Ignore it and make him back more. I know it's super scary when a girl has to work with a half-ton animal that tries to hurt her (for now), but don't let him see that you're afraid. It's easy to give up and run away. But kudos to you for making him realize what he is doing is wrong. Another tip I can give you is to circle him repeatedly. He will soon realize that he has to do boring circles if he bites. Best of luck! Also, maybe try getting a trainer if the problem increases. Make sure there are no health issues also.  <3


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I haven't read all the posts above. Horses nip, but smacking them in the nose isn't the way to go, IMO. Youngsters seem to always "try you" (at least once) by lunging at you - one's size doesn't matter. And, no - it is not acceptable - it is exceedingly dangerous. I have a rule, I will not work around my horses if and when I lose my temper. However, if they lunge at me at liberty (I work a lot at liberty) - I immediatly launched into a pre-scripted "mad as he**" act (which is easy, b/c it does tend to make me pretty angry). I always keep a training whip w me when w a younster and I use it to back up my idle threats while I keep them moving ( I do _not_ make contact w the whip), and I make them keep moving and listening until they look fearfull and/or bewildered (If you are light handed as I am, they get bewildered when mrs. Hyde comes out to play).....aanndd...keep them moving until they look like_ and are_ - really regretting it (i.e., sorry). Done. I turn the page - no more yelling, _finished._ I accept thier apology and go back to quiet sweet "Dr. Jekyll". It is very rare they try it again. What works for a youngster generally works for others.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Missy May said:


> I haven't read all the posts above. Horses nip, but smacking them in the nose isn't the way to go, IMO. Youngsters seem to always "try you" (at least once) by lunging at you - one's size doesn't matter. And, no - it is not acceptable - it is exceedingly dangerous. I have a rule, I will not work around my horses if and when I lose my temper. However, if they lunge at me at liberty (I work a lot at liberty) - I immediatly launched into a pre-scripted "mad as he**" act (which is easy, b/c it does tend to make me pretty angry). I always keep a training whip w me when w a younster and I use it to back up my idle threats while I keep them moving ( I do _not_ make contact w the whip), and I make them keep moving and listening until they look fearfull and/or bewildered (If you are light handed as I am, they get bewildered when mrs. Hyde comes out to play).....aanndd...keep them moving until they look like_ and are_ - really regretting it (i.e., sorry). Done. I turn the page - no more yelling, _finished._ I accept thier apology and go back to quiet sweet "Dr. Jekyll". It is very rare they try it again. What works for a youngster generally works for others.


This this this this this this this.

I really cannot emphasize it enough.

I have an incredibly sensitive young Thoroughbred that we are pretty sure has had someone do something awful to her at some stage [loooong story]... anyway... I don't CARE about her past, if she is rude to me she faces the consequences. The first and only time she ever tried to bite me, I made her think I was going to eat her. I didn't make contact with any part of my body, or with the stick, or with the lead [I always carry a stick when I'm handling horses I'm not 100% sure of], but she sure as heck thought I was going to eat her.

The reaction will be HUGE if you play your cards right, but don't feel bad! I'm not above giving my horse a good hard clobber - even on the face - depending on the horse. I don't hit Magic if I can avoid it, but I have given her more good hard yanks on the lead than I can count, and I've hunted her up in the pasture and the round pen both. My gelding, OTOH, gets whalloped if he so much as looks at me wrong. He is pushier, and can handle it. The force of the hit depends on the severity of the offense of course. A light tap for a sideways look, an all-my-strength-wielding-a-dressage-whip crack on the hindquarter [or neck or shoulder or etc etc] for anything that's actually dangerous.

My horses ALWAYS, the moment I drop my energy and stop delivering consequences, drop their heads and come to me. The low head is key - that is a sign of submission. "You're the boss, I feel safe with you, so you can watch for the lions and tigers, okay?"


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

*Major update here!!!!*

Well, after the cousin party thing, I went to check on the equines. They came over to me but when I reached out to pat Luca, he made his ****y face at me. HOW DARE YOU PIN THOSE EARS AT ME, MISTER! I fumed at him in a normal-loud but raging mad voice. His head swung at me and he lunged. THAT IS ENOUGH!! I hollered, ripping my arms up into the air, jumping up high, lashing at the air with a lead rope that was in my hand. And boy did that horse run. He staggered a few metres and came to a stop, head down, by the fence, not making eye contact. About 10 seconds later I walked over to him like nothing ever happened. He turned his head a little and made the feeblest ****y face I've ever seen on a horse. OH NO YOU DON'T! I scolded him in a stern voice. He immediately lowered his head, put his ears back to their normal position and just stood there, looking defeated. I extended my hand and he sniffed it respectfully. I gave him a quick pat on the neck, said Good Boy in a calm voice and left. 

And this morning, I went to check on him to give him a quick pat before I left for school, and he put his ears back. Just put them back, no real glare, no threatening movements. But still. NO. DONT DO THAT. I KNOW IT'S MORNING BUT KEEP THOSE EARS UP!! He ignored me! So I gave the ground a big STOMP! With my gumboot. He raised his head with an unsure glare. STOP THAT, LUCA! YOU ARE NOT A MARE! (I just said anything that came to my MAD mind :lol He lowered his head, ears pricked at me and gave me a small apologising nudge. I gave him one pat, went away for a few steps, came back. A tiny little ears-back motion from Luca. AH, AH. NOPE, LUCA! I said in a warning voice. He corrected his ears and stood there, looking at me intently. I invited him to me and he calmly walked over without a glare. I scratched him by the withers and he rested his muzzle cautiously on my shoulder. I said my goodbyes and went after a bit of scratching his withers. 

Did I do anything wrong this time? I think I might have...but I see a change in Luca's behaviour!


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Dreamcatcher5 said:


> Well, after the cousin party thing, I went to check on the equines. They came over to me but when I reached out to pat Luca, he made his ****y face at me. HOW DARE YOU PIN THOSE EARS AT ME, MISTER! I fumed at him in a normal-loud but raging mad voice. His head swung at me and he lunged. THAT IS ENOUGH!! I hollered, ripping my arms up into the air, jumping up high, lashing at the air with a lead rope that was in my hand. And boy did that horse run. He staggered a few metres and came to a stop, head down, by the fence, not making eye contact. About 10 seconds later I walked over to him like nothing ever happened. He turned his head a little and made the feeblest ****y face I've ever seen on a horse. OH NO YOU DON'T! I scolded him in a stern voice. He immediately lowered his head, put his ears back to their normal position and just stood there, looking defeated. I extended my hand and he sniffed it respectfully. I gave him a quick pat on the neck, said Good Boy in a calm voice and left.
> 
> And this morning, I went to check on him to give him a quick pat before I left for school, and he put his ears back. Just put them back, no real glare, no threatening movements. But still. NO. DONT DO THAT. I KNOW IT'S MORNING BUT KEEP THOSE EARS UP!! He ignored me! So I gave the ground a big STOMP! With my gumboot. He raised his head with an unsure glare. STOP THAT, LUCA! YOU ARE NOT A MARE! (I just said anything that came to my MAD mind :lol He lowered his head, ears pricked at me and gave me a small apologising nudge. I gave him one pat, went away for a few steps, came back. A tiny little ears-back motion from Luca. AH, AH. NOPE, LUCA! I said in a warning voice. He corrected his ears and stood there, looking at me intently. I invited him to me and he calmly walked over without a glare. I scratched him by the withers and he rested his muzzle cautiously on my shoulder. I said my goodbyes and went after a bit of scratching his withers.
> 
> Did I do anything wrong this time? I think I might have...but I see a change in Luca's behaviour!


Yes! That is exactly what we wanted you to do! The head down shows that he's understanding that YOU are becoming the boss. You startled him, that's for sure, and after a few more of those he'll think twice before trying to bite!

About the second bit - Was he pinning his ears, or just having them back? with Clem, I allow her to have her ears wherever - UNLESS she pins them (which is rare). She's not allowed to pin them at me. After all, they lay their ears back for other reasons than aggression too. I would say that if they are back (NOT pinned) and there isn't any other threatening body language he's fine - but the MOMENT he decides to escalate that....

Then again, since your horse is being so aggressive, you might *want* to correct even just ears being back and not pinned. I'm sure others will chime in with some advice. 

I'm so glad you're making progress with him!


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Thank you, Shoebox! Luca normally has his ears tipped back a little because he's quite a relaxed dude, but he just pinned them back a bit more when I approached him this morning. But yes! When I used my stern mad voice, he immediately put them forwards, looking at me with a "LOOK AT ME, I'm not making a ****y face! look at me! You can stop scolding me now" look on his face, so I stop scolding and he comes over to say "sorry" :lol:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Good job! His reactions are exactly what you want. Especially when you drove him away from you. You have him a much-needed wake up call.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cowgirl928 (Feb 4, 2012)

I agree! He is learning who the boss really is


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Let's see what he does when I get back from school to exercise him 
I'm curious about what he will do


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Good job in these first steps of 'becoming the alpha'! I had to take some tough love measures on occasion with my QH when first getting her, as she's a strong alpha. Also very pleasant, smart as a tack and compliant otherwise, but I had to learn quickly, (as you are doing!) to put those 'warm fuzzies' aside in a snap if needed. There's now such harmony and respect, I can't explain! _Keep up the good work_


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

I just realised how GRATEFUL I am for the horseforum. So I want to say a massive THANK YOU to all of you who participated in this thread. You all gave me excellent advice and because of that, Luca is improving. If it hadn't been for you guys, Luca would probably have ended up hurting me. (the only "horsey" people in my area are 1) a woman whom I almost never have contact with 2) a girl my age who actually doesnt know much about horses, she rides with no helmet on a little Shetland pony :shock:, screaming at it when it doesn't cooperate. Why would it with a 13 year old, tall for her age rider on its back :-( 3) a woman who thinks hitting her horses is the only way to cure problems. That's why her 17hh STB kicks AT PEOPLE when he doesn't feel like something. :shock SO...you all basically saved Luca's and my future! THANK YOU!  
Of course, our journey isn't over yet, and I will probably still ask for lots of advice about Luca on here, but still.....THANKS YOU ALL, YOU WERE ALL HONEST WITH ME, REMINDED ME OF MY MISTAKES AND PROVIDED ME WITH THE BEST INFORMATION I COULD EVER ASK FOR! 

From Dreamcatcher5 :happydance:


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

Sounds like you're on the the right road. Congrats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Dreamcatcher5 said:


> I just realised how GRATEFUL I am for the horseforum. So I want to say a massive THANK YOU to all of you who participated in this thread. You all gave me excellent advice and because of that, Luca is improving. If it hadn't been for you guys, Luca would probably have ended up hurting me. (the only "horsey" people in my area are 1) a woman whom I almost never have contact with 2) a girl my age who actually doesnt know much about horses, she rides with no helmet on a little Shetland pony :shock:, screaming at it when it doesn't cooperate. Why would it with a 13 year old, tall for her age rider on its back :-( 3) a woman who thinks hitting her horses is the only way to cure problems. That's why her 17hh STB kicks AT PEOPLE when he doesn't feel like something. :shock SO...you all basically saved Luca's and my future! THANK YOU!
> Of course, our journey isn't over yet, and I will probably still ask for lots of advice about Luca on here, but still.....THANKS YOU ALL, YOU WERE ALL HONEST WITH ME, REMINDED ME OF MY MISTAKES AND PROVIDED ME WITH THE BEST INFORMATION I COULD EVER ASK FOR!
> 
> From Dreamcatcher5 :happydance:


And I know we'd like to thank you for actually listening to us! I know that may sound kinda silly, but I can't tell you how many times we've offered advice (especially to a younger person), only to be argued with and told that we're wrong because it can't possibly be their fault, it HAS to be the horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

Dreamcatcher5 you and people like you make this forum fun. You are the kind of person I got involved with this forum to help. Thank you for working through this with our help you and your horse are better because of the time you are taking to learn how to be a better horse person!!!! Keep this up and don't lose the willingness to ask for help. I can hear the pride you have for how you are learning and how you are taking the lead with your horse. GOOD FOR YOU!!! keep up the good work

http://www.horseforum.com/members/33193/


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Yay! Awesome! Keep up the good work. Glad to hear that Lucas was just trying you out and is quick to give. Your excitement is catching! I'm as excited as you are I think!


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum,CowboyBob and NorthernMama: thank you so much!  I just wanted a respectable relationship with my horse, and because of your excellent advice, I am able to make this happen! An yes, it was definitely my fault, not Luca's.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

Dreamcatcher5 said:


> DraftyAiresMum,CowboyBob and NorthernMama: thank you so much!  I just wanted a respectable relationship with my horse, and because of your excellent advice, I am able to make this happen! An yes, it was definitely my fault, not Luca's.


You said it a Respectable relationship. Remember no only does he need to respect you but you need to respect him and learn to speak so he can understand what you are asking of him. the best thing you can do to improve your horsemanship is to study horse behavior and horse communication. Work to understand your horse as a horse. Remember your horse is not a person try not to project human emotions and human actions onto your horse. Keep up the good work :lol::wink:


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

So...basically I have to behave like a horse and think like a horse?? And alpha one?  I've always wanted an excuse to behave like an equine!!!!! Okay..maybe I'm a bit overexcited. But still. So I must think like a horse. That's one of the things I really need to work on, sometimes I tend to treat Luca like a human  I've got to stop that. That's probably why he was challenging me in the first place! Thanks, CowboyBob!


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Dreamcatcher5 said:


> Well, after the cousin party thing, <snip>
> Did I do anything wrong this time? I think I might have...but I see a change in Luca's behaviour!


You know, I just had to come back and read that post again. It gave ME a warm fuzzy feeling!


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

NorthernMama..... I don't know what to say! 
It's amazing how everyone here is just as excited as me about the improvement of Luca's behaviour....and MY behaviour around Luca!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Dreamcatcher5 said:


> So...basically I have to behave like a horse and think like a horse?? And alpha one?  I've always wanted an excuse to behave like an equine!!!!! Okay..maybe I'm a bit overexcited. But still. *So I must think like a horse. That's one of the things I really need to work on, sometimes I tend to treat Luca like a human  I've got to stop that. That's probably why he was challenging me in the first place! *Thanks, CowboyBob!


You've got it now :wink:


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## ilovethem (Mar 14, 2013)

make him back up


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

ilovethem said:


> make him back up


...Yeah, we've got that at this point. Have you read ANY of the posts beyond the original one?


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

all I could add is it sound like you got it under control Remember horses do not know how big they are I work with drafts ( thank god for that)


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

When I went to Luca and Fleet after school, I niticed that they were all hyper. I went up to Luca and he just stood there, his eyes full of worry. He stated prancing around a bit and then just trotted past me! I though he had charged me but he didn't have his ears back and he wasn't looking at me at all. He just ran a few steps, looked at me and lowered his head in shame. Turned out there was a bee flying around, bothering the equines!!! So I got the lunge whip out, and got them running. Oh what fun they had!!! I even have a pic! 

http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r498/fuphotob/259894be2534fb8fb952d1f1a7a427c7_zps2695dd05.jpg

The bee fled :lol: and I went back to Luca. He didn't do anything with his ears or face, so I gave him a nice scratch. One thing is: sometimes with Luca its hard to tell whether he's pinning his ears or just having them back cos he's relaxed. Look. http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r498/fuphotob/b785c550ecd7d7abbef2bdd521d3d093_zpsb9cf7fbd.jpg those are his relaxed ears. 

But I can tell by his nostrils and eyes if he's pinning those ears. But today..nope...all exhausted from running and prancing away from that bee and frolicking with Fleet. I'm satisfied.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Hard to tell? Really? Those ears are very obviously relaxed- flopped to the sides, sticking out. Pinned ears are flat back against their heads. Kind of looks like they don't have ears sometimes!

A great ear pinning photo:
http://www.horse-riding-tips-n-chat.com/images/angryhorse.jpg

Compared to your horse: 
http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r498/fuphotob/b785c550ecd7d7abbef2bdd521d3d093_zpsb9cf7fbd.jpg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

I would not call those pinned ear. they look relaxed to me.


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## Dreamcatcher5 (May 15, 2012)

Wonderful! I just feel so stupid sometimes :lol:
He usually has his ears like that, he's just a horse who likes to relax. He often rests his hind legs too :lol:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

You aren't stupid.. some people are more in tune to horse expressions than others.


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