# Just how smart are horses?



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Cool thread, I think a smart horse is great to train if you are as smart as him, more like can think like him.

I think people think like humans when training- it doesn't work well and therefor is the root of a lot of problems or bad habits.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

> Would you rather train a smart horse than a not-so-smart one? [Note -- I didn't say 'dumb horse'!


I don't have a real thought out answer to all these questions. But this one stuck out to me because I have 2 geldings, half brothers (same sire) with completely different mind-sets.

My Curly gelding is super laid back, easy going, not a care in the world, but he's the type of horse that you point, kick and he'll go. He doesn't fight with you, he's a very easy horse to ride and is a sweetheart. He's not "dumb" but...I don't know, it's hard to explain, he just seems to not care as much for what he does when I'm working with him.

His half brother on the other hand, a Curly/Spanish Mustang cross, is a highly intelligent horse. He will test you, push your buttons, and test the limits before he settles into his work. He KNOWS what he's supposed to do. With my mom, he can be naughty. With me, he's usually good as gold because he knows that I won't put up with his crap. He catches on very quickly and the stuff that he learns, really sticks. But his intelligence can play against him.

If I had to pick a horse to work with, I'd much rather have a super willing horse that is easy to work with, over a very intelligent horse that tries to out-think you.

I hope this makes sense. I very rarely ride the purebred Curly, the crossbreed is my main choice between the two because I know that he isn't going to be a butt with me, but I see a lot of frustration come out when other people try to ride him. He is a GREAT horse to work with, as long as your experienced with horses. If not, he'll out-think you. 

I'll come back to the other questions with my opinions later.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

^^I agree there is a difference between smart and willing vs. smart not willing that makes training easier...or maybe I am not smart enough to make those kind work..lol


Going back to one of original questions, I think all species are smart in their own way.
But not so much the intelligence level but more like our ability to think like the species, personality and conditioning of that animal to be able communicate with it.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Cool thread, I think a smart horse is great to train if you are as smart as him, more like can think like him.
> 
> I think people think like humans when training- it doesn't work well and therefor is the root of a lot of problems or bad habits.


I agree…and "intelligence" is a human term. What would make an intelligent wild horse would not be the same as an intelligent domestic one.


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## attackships (Jan 12, 2012)

dogs can be incredibly smart, but I think the way we sense intelligence in animals gets mixed up with their domesticity. dogs ("man's best friend") are so domesticated that their lives are very much intertwined with humans. I watched a really cool documentary on dogs not too long ago and now I'm completely fascinated. Lol. they are among the only animals who look to our eyes and can read emotion, they follow our eye movements similar to what we do when communicating with each other. I think because of this, it is easier for us to communicate effectively with dogs, and we get a lot out of these interactions. Where with horses it is completely different! We have to learn their language and it does not come as naturally. instead people try to force a horse to think like a human and then both horse and human are left frustrated. 

I have no idea how i would measure intelligence in horses. I just assume most horses are very smart in general. sometimes i think when they find different ways to challenge you or try different things to see what they can get away with is a sign of some complex thinking.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

I do think horses are "intelligent" beings with the ability to do deductive reasoning. Here is why. I bought my horse from a man who had gotten my horse on trade from a lady who lives about three miles away from me down an old logging road which makes for a great trail ride road. He got the mare about 5 years ago. He moved her to his farm about 17 miles away where she lived for about a year. I bought her 3 years ago and in that time the original owner had moved away. I saddled her up and decided to take her down the road from which she originally came almost a year after I got her...at this point it was about 2 whole years since she had been "home". When we got to the point on the road where the old saw mill is she instantly started to act different...like a horse who is headed home would do. She got excited wanted to move faster and started calling out to see if her old herd buddies would answer her. Sadly there was no response as I said because they had since moved. But she remembered where she was at. There had to be some deductive reasoning in that...and I swear it went something like recognizing the "landmark" of the saw mill because we were at that point still a good mile away from the farm she came from. SO I don't think she would have been able to smell it, or anything to do with sense recognition. It was a very good example of just how extremely sharp their memory can be.

As for which kinda horse I like working with. The smarter ones are often harder to "get to" because they are often smarter than some training methods and can outwit them. For instance a TWH I was breaking had a real issue with moving out. So I tried tiping her nose to the left to knock her off balance a little to get her to start moving...she was so smart that she figured out that if she wrapped her head all the way back around till her nose touched my boot I could do nothing to mover her that way. She would stand there bent like that totally still like a statue. So I moved to the crop which well she couldn't outsmart. A less intelligent animal may be more willing to do as you want. But I find them duller to work with. I like the challenge and the reward of getting to the smarter horse. And I like a horse who is smart...they have your back alot.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Personally, I don't think "smart" has anything to do with willingness. A "bad trainer" can take an eager, willing horse and turn it into a dull, disinterested one easier than a "good trainer" can the opposite. To me, training is doing one thing and one thing only - putting meaning to a word/touch/action, etc. Teaching the horse that *whatever word/touch/action/cue etc.* means something or means nothing and should be ignored (desensitizing). That's it. The qualities I look for in a horse are the things I cannot train into him and the main one I look for is CURIOSITY.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

Horse Poor said:


> Personally, I don't think "smart" has anything to do with willingness.


Oh I don't know about that. I have known horses who were so smart they had very little "willingness" to do anything other than eat & sleep. They were smart enough to understand that they didn't have to do a dang thing and understood that I being 135 pounds versus there 1300 pounds wasn't ever gonna make them do it either. So you as a trainer have to try to find what they are "willing" to compromise on or enjoy...and I have met a couple horses that weren't willing to do a dang thing and compromising was also not in their game plan...not because they were too stupid to do it, just so smart they knew they didn't have to do it and it would interfere with their plans of eating, meandering around, and sleeping.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

If you ask Walter Zettl, he will tell you that horses are stupid animals, and that is why they let us on their backs... My friend (in comment to the aforementioned statement) said that, no, horses are actually smart for letting us on their backs! It's entrapment, once they let us up there all comfortable and such then they ditch us in the dirt 

I think horses have a high degree of trainability and have good logic and reasoning skills. Moreso than some humans. However, I do not believe they have true "emotions" and that they live purely in the moment without dwelling on the past or the future or how something makes them "feel". A horse refusing to load in a trailer after a bad accident is not doing so because they "feel scared", but instead because the last time they were in the trailer, something bad happened and their logic and reasoning is telling them not to repeat the experience. This is the same as why a horse will nuzzle your pocket. It's not because they "love" you or it "feels nice", it's because the last time they did it, there was a positive response (a treat).

Is this intelligence though?? We often think the horses who identify and act on patterns more quickly are "smart".. is it?
From wikipedia:
"*Intelligence* has been defined in different ways, including the abilities, but not limited to, abstract thought, understanding, self-awareness, communication, reasoning, learning, having emotional knowledge, retaining, planning, and problem solving."

Horses posses some of these qualities.. but not all. They cant think abstractly, they dont "plan" or "hold a grudge" (living in the moment") and have limited understanding.. But otherwise yes I would say that horses are "intelligent" to some fraction of the standard..


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## Newby32 (Dec 4, 2011)

Great thread! I think horses can be incredibly intelligent and that the really intelligent horses are more difficult to work with. The really smart ones are such a pain in the rear, but also can be fun. There is a lot of satisfaction in out-smarting a smart horse.


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## herdbound (Aug 30, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> "*Intelligence* has been defined in different ways, including the abilities, but not limited to, abstract thought, understanding, self-awareness, communication, reasoning, learning, having emotional knowledge, retaining, planning, and problem solving."
> 
> Horses posses some of these qualities.. but not all. They cant think abstractly, they dont "plan" or "hold a grudge" (living in the moment") and have limited understanding.. But otherwise yes I would say that horses are "intelligent" to some fraction of the standard..


I agree to your statement that horses do not have the same emotions than us BUT then again who is to say that our emotions are the only ones on the planet. As for your portion of comment that I quoted. I had a pony named Peaches and she could "plan". She would wait till I left, take the second strand of a three strand barbed wire fence with her tensile lip and pull it up hooking it on the top strand thus making a "hole" in the fence to escape through. Now I never taught her to do this...nor do I think her previous owner would have taught her this. I would mysteriously find her out and a hole in the fence I had no idea where it came from. Till I watched out the window and saw her do it with my own two eyes. The little booger would wait till she heard the screen door shut then she would watch for a few moments and voila make her great escape smooth as silk.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I think they are quite intelligent but as Anebel said, they do not really engage in abstract reasoning. Most horses are in fact better than most people at adapting their behaviour depending on whether said behaviour results in negative or positive rewards. I've seen riders repeating the same dysfunctional behaviour over and over, trying to get their horse to do something, with no, or poor, results. On the other hand, I've seen horses change their behaviour within seconds or minutes, adapting or responding to the rider. 

Is that intelligence? Most people can't agree on the definition of "intelligence" as it relates to humans and the current pet paradigm is that of "multiple intelligences," or being smart in different ways. A horse can't write a philosophical treatise on Kant's categorical imperative or do nuclear physics, but it can't identify and respond to things in its environment long before the human has a clue what's happening.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Great thread Cherie. 

I do think they have intelligence in the sense that they are opportunists, understand hierarchy and herd dynamics, personal motivators such as food, their want to abide by their leader - human or horse, etc. In the complex human sense, not so much - If they had that kind of intelligence level they'd think before they did something stupid to injure themselves lol! 

I enjoy horses that you can see the wheels turning, but I also think that goes back to the options of being an opportunist or wanting to abide by their leader. Woodstock for example, he is one that I have to be a step ahead of. You can see his radar ears and his wheels turning, be it a thing where he sees an opportunity to do what he would like or if it's anticipatory thinking about what I plan to ask of him next and his seeking to please me. 

On the flip side, I've met and rode more than a few that I've labeled "dumb". Were they truly? Probably not. They are the ones that are lazy & dull, do what they have to when asked (more often told) but offer no more. I find those types boring & frustrating.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

Yes, reasoning "If I kick this other horse through this wire fence, I will get hurt" is not a level of abstraction they posess. That said, after one such incident, my horse has never tried to kick anyone through a fence again. But then, there's a difference between the actual and thoroughly unpleasant experience of getting tangled in a fence verses the abstract theory based on a priori theoretical knowledge that fences can be harmful if you get caught in one. Horses (some of them anyway) may be able to apply the former reasoning, but most certainly not the latter.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

attackships said:


> dogs can be incredibly smart...they are among the only animals who look to our eyes and can read emotion, they follow our eye movements similar to what we do when communicating with each other.


You know, I never thought about that but you're right!! When I talk to my dogs, they always look right at me as if they're honestly listening and comprehending what I am saying!  Never thought about the fact that if I talk to my horse, she may look in my general direction but never directly into my eyes, and sometimes she just listens with an ear while she munches on her hay :lol:


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

I have ridden smart horses and I have ridden some not so smart horses When it's all boiled down, I want a horse that is willing. My old mare was very clever, but was a bulled headed pain in the rear, so for all her talent, both athletically and mentally, her training progressed very slowly. My gelding, on the other hand, was never going to win any prizes for highest IQ, but I got way more done with him because he had a willing disposition.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Hmmmm... Scratching chin.
I'll just use thoughts on working with a horse on the ground, acclimating it to human life, and dealing with different situations on a daily basis/observing behavior in a "natural" setting. Personally I think the more intelligent horse is the quieter one, more easily trained, quicker to assimilate stimuli and remember it. The lesser horse struggles to overcome it's fears and it's built in instincts, quicker to display flight, has a lower sense of self preservation and tends to injure it's self and others.

Does intelligence correlate directly with how easy or difficult a horse is to train?
I would say once dominance is developed a highly intelligent horse is easier to train. I'm talking about the ones that can pick up on a cue the first time and remember it repeatedly. A highly intelligent horse has a very strong sense of self preservation and will respond to stimuli much faster than that of a lesser one. 
For instance when halter training a horse learns to yield to pressure. I think an intelligent horse will pick up faster knowing that if they move forward pressure is released. A less intelligent horse continues to fight against the pressure regardless if they are injured in the process. Think of it in the wild, if a horse gets tangled in briars they instinctively know to move forward and not panic, a less intelligent horse panics/thrashes around thus injuring themselves.

What is the difference between 'learned behavior' and 'reasoning'?
Learned behavior happens when they are repeatedly exposed to stimuli and learn to avoid danger/pain/pressure and be attracted to pleasure/reward/relief. I don't really know if a horse can reason between what is dangerous and not without being exposed to it a couple times so that would be conditioning of a sort. Instinct does comes into play. 
So is it instinct or reasoning? How many times have you seen an intelligent horse when it's traveling take a safer path. Is that instinct or are they thinking "If I stay to the right the ground is firmer, safer, shorter, easier to navigate?" Whereas some horses will plow through brush, get stuck in mud, trip over objects, etc. Same thought process we would use? Maybe.

Does a smart horse learn more quickly?
I think so. I think a less intelligent one takes more time to overcome it's fears whereas a smart horse is a been there done that, I remember sort.

How do you differentiate what is learned by repetition and conditioning and what is learned by thinking and reasoning. 
I think a foal is the best way to observe that. Some will thrash through fences, get into trouble, be injured. Others are more calm, interested, curious, but again have a higher sense of self preservation. I've been around both and it's like night and day. It's hard to judge an older horse because they have been exposed to so much already wether or not they have been officially trained. Even if they are wild you don't know what all they have been exposed to.


Are both conditioned responses and reasoning good measuring guides for intelligence?
I think so. It depends on how quickly they respond. If you have to go over and over something with a horse for it to learn, or a horse is exposed to it a few times or even once and it takes and remembers that would be both but the more intelligent horse can reason faster. 

Would you rather train a smart horse than a not-so-smart one? [Note -- I didn't say 'dumb horse'!
A smart horse, a lesser one has a harder time overcoming it's built in instincts and struggles to comprehend reward it's all flight flight flight.

If you listed well known domesticated animals, where would you place horses against dogs, cats, cattle, pigs, etc?
I would do Dolphins, elephants, birds, dogs, horses, pigs, cattle, and then on..
LOL!

What 'tests' would you use to rate intelligence?
How quickly do they receive and process stimuli, how strong is their sense of self preservation and how quickly can they overcome their instincts.
IDK? I guess some will remember fears more easily also but act upon them differently. Like my gelding who discriminates between genders. Then me falling under my mare when she spooked tied and she tried not to hurt me when she stepped on me trying to flee when the dog spooked her... That was a blatant disregard to her flight process and an attempt not to hurt me for some reason. Or the horse who will act differently for small children than they will with an adult on them. They are reasoning then I think? Curious to know how you feel on this?

As for the fencing discussion I had a gelding who would purposely try and injure other horses with the fence. There are three instances in particular where he used the fence as a weapon. I watched in horror as he would gently round up a horse like play where I thought how cute they are getting along and then push them towards a fence and proceed to attack throw/kick/push them through it. He would not fight or kick otherwise, it was a calculated attempt to rid them of his territory. He used all force necessary to rid them of his presence, penning them against it and injuring them until they were either entangled, through it, or seriously damaged. I think that is a sign of intelligence because he didn't bother fighting until he had them in place to meet his "target".

Great thread, can't wait to read what you know!!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I don't think horses are any smarter than any other animal. They have been selected over many centuries to be trainable and gentle. They do what we ask them more easily than say a cow or a pig but I don't think it's due to superior intelligence. It would be nice to believe that since the smartest person in the room is generally the one that agrees with you.

Horses don't plan or reason however they have amazing memories and can retain things good or bad for years. I had an Appy gelding when I was a kid and being a stupid kid I taught him to rear on command. I moved away after highschool and nobody ever ask him to rear for years before I moved away because I wasn't an idiot and never told anyone what I had done. Probably ten years since I had ask him to rear I was riding him and thought I'd ask him and see what happened. He responded almost instantly. Of course he was considerably older and I was considerably bigger so I didn't ask him again but I gained a better understanding for horses and just how long they can retain what they learn.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

All I can say is my horse was smart enough to get me to give her a forever home, her own stall with feed and grooming twice a day and all the hay she can eat, vet visits every year, more if needed, apples and carrots twice a day, and peppermints just because. She has good comfortable tack and goes on regular weekend outings to some of the prettiest places in the world.

There aren't may things that I've ever taken that good of care of.

Yes sir, she's a pretty smart horse.


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## hoopla (Jan 29, 2012)

> Does intelligence correlate directly with how easy or difficult a horse is to train?


 Yep



> What is the difference between 'learned behavior' and 'reasoning'?


 Learned behaviour is something that is conditioned as a result of trial and error. The horse associates certain responses with favorable or unfavorable consequences. It then learns to repeat those behaviours that led to favorable results.

I'm thinking that horses best demonstrate innate behaviour and learned or conditioned behaviour. 

Reasoning is a way to solve problems without trial and error. I'm not convinced that's appropriate in terms of how anything other than primates learn. 



> Does a smart horse learn more quickly?


 Yes for sure... and it learns bad just as quickly as it learns good. 



> How do you differentiate what is learned by repetition and conditioning and what is learned by thinking and reasoning.


 See above



> Are both conditioned responses and reasoning good measuring guides for intelligence?


Yes



> Would you rather train a smart horse than a not-so-smart one? [Note -- I didn't say 'dumb horse'!


 My personal preference is for smart, opinionated horses. The sort that can figure out things and keep themselves from harm work well for me.

Dumb, dead head horses do nothing for me at all. Indeed they're often their own worst enemy because they put up with bad stuff. 

Give me one that evades and resists idiotic, cack handed management any day of the week. 



> If you listed well known domesticated animals, where would you place horses against dogs, cats, cattle, pigs, etc?


 horses, pigs, dogs, cattle. 



> What 'tests' would you use to rate intelligence?


 The capability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas, use language, to learn, and have the most creativity, personality, character, knowledge, wisdom and to be able to use tools and equipment to aid performance of a task.

That and Cortical neurons in the brain. 

Horses though are in the category of having the ability to be trained to respond to an increasingly complex set of stimuli with a repertoire of learned behaviours. They're exceptionally good at that being flight and fright prey animals. 

When it comes to horses then I measure it by: 

The Scope of learning – the cognitive ability of a horse to solve increasingly complex problems.


Rate of learning - The time it takes for the horse to learn a task.


Retention of learning – The ability of the horse to remember the learned behavior.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

a good trainer had better be smarter than what they are working with,remember,animals have a mind of their own.and in certain situations,put yourself in his place.


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

Does intelligence correlate directly with how easy or difficult a horse is to train?
I think intelligence plays a part in how trainable a horse is, but it is only one of many factors: willingness, dominance, age, physicality and a number of other aspects can impact it.

What is the difference between 'learned behavior' and 'reasoning'?
Learned behavior is just what it sounds like, over a series of repeated events, the subject knows that they can expect one to precede another. Reasoning involves apparent "leaps of logic," where two events are not always or often obviously associated, but the subject manages to "put 2 and 2 together" linking the events.

Does a smart horse learn more quickly?
This one is very subjective. If you mean left to their own devices, ie. in a wild state, then yes, a smarter horse will learn more quickly. If you mean in a training situation, then as stated above, this will depend on the dynamic relationship with the trainer, the horse's disposition, and a long list of other factors. For example, based on my observations of them, I am willing to say that my two fillies are of very similar intelligence levels, however, Zanna is much easier to train and much farther progressed in her training because she enjoys human interaction more and has fun in her training sessions where Vexy only tolerates it.

How do you differentiate what is learned by repetition and conditioning and what is learned by thinking and reasoning. 
This is hard to put your finger on with horses because most horse people are deeply ingrained creatures of habit. If you have a horse that is sensitive, it is possible to condition them for a response in only one session. Logic is much harder to prove. Again using my own for an example, at first glace, some people would call it logic that they will play with the chain on the gate in an attempt to open the gate and come into the barn. I am much more willing to think this is observation just as they would use in the wild learning which plants are safe to eat by seeing what their dam eats.

Are both conditioned responses and reasoning good measuring guides for intelligence?
They can be, but it would be different forms of intelligence that would be judged by each.
 
Would you rather train a smart horse than a not-so-smart one? [Note -- I didn't say 'dumb horse'!
I like smart horses because they can be more fun and are more of a challenge to me as a rider and trainer. Far more important to me, though, as I said in my other post, is a willing disposition. 

 If you listed well known domesticated animals, where would you place horses against dogs, cats, cattle, pigs, etc? 
I don't want to generalize, I feel this would be much more on an individual animal basis.

 What 'tests' would you use to rate intelligence?
Observation. Watching how they play is, to me, one of the bests ways to rate how smart they are. As soon as you add human interaction into the equation, you alter the outcome with extra variables.


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## 2SCHorses (Jun 18, 2011)

I have two horses that are both willing and fairly smart. I am lucky, I think, because they both learn quickly and we have great communication. 

But with all domestic animals, I think there's a lot of genetics AND training, both by the mommy and the people, that contribute to the overall intelligence of an animal. I have 2 Jack Russells, and one was a farm raised dog from working stock, and the other was a rescue from a puppy mill ... I bet you can guess which is the smarter dog! It's 4 years down the road and we are STILL working things like house training with the puppy mill rescue - so I think a lot of that plays into intelligence; the mare especially, because she 'trains' the foal after birth, too. But I think smart horses are willing horses, too. I think there is intelligence saying "it's better to try to work together than try to work apart". I think some horses get that, especially after establishing respect in the relationship.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I said I would weigh in with my opinion on the subject. Let me start by saying that I think intelligence requires reasoning. I think we, as trainers and care-givers, need to know the difference between instincts and 'hard-wired' behaviors and intelligent reasoning. 

 I believe a horse is hard-wired to be a 'herd animal' and a 'flight animal'. I believe that these two natural instincts are something that we have to work constantly -- forever -- to control. While individual dispositions and natural inclinations (like being more 'flighty' and 'spooky' or more settled and easy going) have a great influence on this, the basic flight and herd instincts are just that -- hard wired instincts.

 I think that 'willingness and trainability' are the traits that make horses easier or more difficult to train. These are 'X factors' that are impossible to measure, but any top event trainer will tell you that they will take willingness and trainability way before ability.

 Over the years, I have tried to set up circumstances that would actually reflect intelligence rather than naturally occurring instincts or willingness. I have been around many different kinds of horses, donkeys, mules, cattle, sheep, goats and hogs. We have had bison for many years and have been around a myriad of dogs and cats. I have trained many cattle and trained one to ride and rode her quite a bit. [I used to carry a shovel and ride her out in the fields to change irrigation water.] I also had a bottle raised bison that was semi-trained to ride. Sold him to Charlie Battles (Reba McIntire's first husband) to finish training to make a rodeo act out of -- He didn't!

 I, personally, do not think that intelligence plays a very big part in how trainable a horse is. I think the main quality that allows them to be trained is their *willingness to yield to pressure -- the ease by which they are intimidated by pressure and their desire to do whatever it takes to get that pressure to go away.* I think it makes a lot MORE difference how smart their trainer is. 

 I think 'difficult to train' horses are horses that have a lot more inherent 'resistance' and a lot more 'push-back' instead of yield. 

 I do not think horses are very intelligent compared to many other mammals. I think I would rank dogs and cats near the top of the scale below primates and possibly sea mammals. [Cats just don't respond to training as well.] I would place pigs (verrry smart) at the top of the hoofed animals, then bison (it is very difficult to pen bison in the same trap twice), some breeds of cattle ( mostly those with Brahman blood -- a little 'ear'), then donkeys and mules well above horses in that order. There are ways that you can determine intelligent reasoning apart from training. [As I said before, I think training is much more dependent on how easily intimidated and willing a horse is to yield to pressure.] 

 One of the ways I have used to determine intelligence is to put feed in a pan in a pen. I will tie the horse or have someone hold him on one side of the pen. Then, I set the pan on the ground right in front of him. I will exit a gate on the opposite side of the pen. If he is smart, he will walk around the pen and go right through the gate I exited and walk straight to the feed. Donkeys will usually 'get it' first, then mules and then smart horses. Anyone that has successfully trained donkeys or mules will testify how smart they are compared to a horse. I have had horses that stood there and looked at the feed for hours. I finally latched the gate and got another horse. I had a really nice kids' horse that had worked in a feedlot for several years. He was 'broke to death'. It literally took him at least 30 minutes to walk over to the gate and go in when I set the pan about 10 feet down the fence from the gate. I walked out the gate with him watching me. The next day, it still took him 4 or 5 minutes. He was one that never found the gate when it was on the other side of the pen.

 When I ride a horse and ask it to 'stop' some place and the next time we go to that same place and the horse tries to stop on its own, I know the horse is smart. These will be the same horses that do not take very long to find the gate on the pen. They figure out how to open gates, how to turn on the water, how to get into the feed bin, all kinds of nifty things that require actual intelligence.

 When I was still buying prospects (instead of raising them), I did not care about their intelligence. I would push on a barely halter-broke horse's nose to see if he would try to push back at me or would step back away from me. I would push on a horse's shoulder and see if he switched his tail, shook his head and acted irritated or just stepped over. Little things like that told me what I wanted to know about 'trainability'. The horse's breeding and his quality of movement told more about his ability and natural instincts like 'cow', right amount of knee action, good hock use, etc. Five minutes to evaluate his conformation, five minutes in a round pen, five minutes to look at his papers and five minutes to 'push' him around told me all I needed to know. I paid a lot of attention to the close relatives of a prospect. Horses rarely train or perform better than they are bred to.

 Horses are very thin skinned and sensitive. They have been selectively bred for gentleness, ability and trainability. Gentleness and ability mean very little unless they LIKE to yield to pressure instead of resisting it. 

 A World Champion reining horse trainer and I were had a conversation one day about intelligence. We both agreed that very intelligent horses learned SOME things more quickly, but they also anticipate and try to get ahead of you even when they are very trainable. He said he had a horse he was showing at the that time that had memorized 9 of 12 reining patterns. By the time they moved out of the second maneuver of a pattern, the horse knew what was coming next and tried to go there. He NEVER rode any patterns at any time other than in competition. 

 Some very intelligent horses are really easy to train but can be pretty hard to keep 'honest'. Some not-so-smart horses are also easy to train because they respond very well to pressure and release of it, but, they stay honest a lot easier. Some slow minded horses (the ones we say are 'dumber than a box of rocks') are also 'decent' to train. It is more difficult to teach them real complicated things, but trainability is still more related to how much 'push-back' resistance they have in them.

 I have found that the most difficult horses are those that are smart and very unwilling to yield to pressure. There are some horses of some specific bloodlines that hate to give to pressure. This 'resistance' is only compounded if they are smart. If you figure out a way to get them to do something one day, they have figured out a way to NOT do it the next. [We say they wake up in a new world every morning.] These horses are bred for halter showing or some other 'use' (that is not actually useful) and they cannot live long enough to be trained into pleasant 'user-friendly' useful horses. Can they be trained? Maybe? Probably, if you take enough time -- measured in years -- but then they will outsmart their owners. Good riders don't want them and poor riders CAN'T use them. Smart trainers would rather train 5 or 6 'nice' trainable prospects in less time and with less trouble than beating your head on a post trying to train one horse that is not real 'trainable'.

 On a different note, I think horses have a memory second to none -- maybe elephants. I've had horses that remembered things and reacted to a place or thing many years after an incident. I find this behavior the 'norm' for them and not exceptional. If they 'accidentally' do something, they will nearly always repeat the behavior that had a 'pay-off'. This is the reason that horses get so spoiled so quickly. They are not smart enough to 'figure out' the behavior. They just naturally 'capitalize' of what they connect with the release of pressure.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Good thread. I think they're smart enough to survive. Much of what I have to say is common knowledge. 

The first time a horse gets a foot in a fence or rope, they'll fight. This is aggravating to humans because their horse is fighting and it's dangerous, but in nature it works because most vines they'd get wrapped in will be broken from an explosive horse fit. I think a horse almost has to have a fight or flight instinct. They don't have hands to grab anything so they have to stomp it, overpower it, or outrun it. So we as humans have to desensitize horses and also teach them to give to pressure when we put them in man-made surroundings. 

I can cause any kid horse or dude horse buck, kick, and bite at a person because Ive experimented and fooled with different temperaments a lot. It's just in all of them. Just hidden deeper in some. I had a guy tell me a few weeks ago that he was buying some breeding stock of a breed of horses that doesn't bite or kick. I told him I'm glad for him. Of course most people know that's not going to happen because how would the breeding stallion control a herd? How would a mare discipline foals? Well needless to say he's been bitten and kicked all within a two week period. 

Ill add that horses do have incredible memories. They can memorize drill team patterns and reining patterns great. My pickup horses know the tendencies of every bucking bull and horse that we work. Because they see them over and over, they know them better than I do, I can guarantee that. I can sit in the arena and if there's a bull that always has to be roped and led out, my horses will start that way before I even know we need to go


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## 2SCHorses (Jun 18, 2011)

AmazinCaucasian said:


> Well needless to say he's been bitten and kicked all within a two week period.


 
LOL. Sorry, that is just seriously funny. Even a person who has amazing etiquette will bite and kick if attacked! Goodness! I don't think we could possible breed out basic survival intelligence, AND, if we could, I think it is ethically wrong to do so! People, for being really smart, can be really silly!!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

this is just my experience, but i have always noticed that the horses who are a little less smart take longer to learn something. but once they learn something, they really know it and will do it every time you ask. a smarter type horse will learn it right away, but test it more and not necessarily do it every time. i used to have a great QH gelding who was the less smart type. with his training it always seemed like he wasnt getting something at all the first few days. then one day i would take him out and he had it down pat.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Cherie said:


> I said I would weigh in with my opinion on the subject. Let me start by saying that I think intelligence requires reasoning. I think we, as trainers and care-givers, need to know the difference between instincts and 'hard-wired' behaviors and intelligent reasoning.
> 
> I believe a horse is hard-wired to be a 'herd animal' and a 'flight animal'. I believe that these two natural instincts are something that we have to work constantly -- forever -- to control. While individual dispositions and natural inclinations (like being more 'flighty' and 'spooky' or more settled and easy going) have a great influence on this, the basic flight and herd instincts are just that -- hard wired instincts.
> 
> ...


*^^It makes it that much easier to get the wrong result due to our(humans) way of thinking!*


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

We'll certainly never know how 'smart' horses (or any other animal) really are, but I know one thing...in the summer when the sun is blazing, it's 95 degrees and 90% humidy, and I'm out working and sweating, the mares are all standing under a nice, shady tree calling me an idiot.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Reasoning is a way to solve problems without trial and error. I'm not convinced that's appropriate in terms of how anything other than primates learn. 

*Dogs and pigs are capable of reasoning and using logic.*


Quote:
If you listed well known domesticated animals, where would you place horses against dogs, cats, cattle, pigs, etc?
horses, pigs, dogs, cattle. 

*I would this order at all! It is also unfair to judge pigs and cattle when they are normally have very little human interaction.
Pigs are highly intelligent, they can be trained to do tricks, be house clean, and have a higher ability to learn than a chimpanzee.
Tests done to assess intelligence with dogs chimps and pigs, where they had to move a cursor across a screen to get a food reward, the pigs learned far more quickly as to where the cursor had to be to get the reward. (It constantly changed) but every time the pig was faster by a long distance. *

Quote:
What 'tests' would you use to rate intelligence?
The capability to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas, use language, to learn, and have the most creativity, personality, character, knowledge, wisdom and to be able to use tools and equipment to aid performance of a task.

That and Cortical neurons in the brain. 

*Again I would rate a dog's ability to do all the above faster than a horse!
On second thoughts it depends on the bred of the dog! LOL*

Horses though are in the category of having the ability to be trained to respond to an increasingly complex set of stimuli with a repertoire of learned behaviours. They're exceptionally good at that being flight and fright prey animals. 

When it comes to horses then I measure it by: 

The Scope of learning – the cognitive ability of a horse to solve increasingly complex problems.


Rate of learning - The time it takes for the horse to learn a task.


Retention of learning – The ability of the horse to remember the learned behavior.
Like

*I agree with what you have said - and like you, prefer an intelligent horse even if it has been spoilt by bad training.*


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

PaintHorseMares said:


> We'll certainly never know how 'smart' horses (or any other animal) really are, but I know one thing...in the summer when the sun is blazing, it's 95 degrees and 90% humidy, and I'm out working and sweating, the mares are all standing under a nice, shady tree calling me an idiot.


hahahaha


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## Makoda (Jan 17, 2011)

They are smarter than we think they are.


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