# TB Racehorse - Comments on Croup,



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Do you have any pictures of him standing square? I'd be interested to see what he looks like when not in motion.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Do you have any pictures of him standing square? I'd be interested to see what he looks like when not in motion.


Watching him in action I imagine he'd look very much like he is there.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

No help to you, but I'll be looking forward to seeing him at Cheltenham. Looks like a proper sort. Mullins looks to have one heck of a team travelling over.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Maple said:


> No help to you, but I'll be looking forward to seeing him at Cheltenham. Looks like a proper sort. Mullins looks to have one heck of a team travelling over.


Enjoy ! ... records could fall I imagine, in Ireland's favour. If only we can win the Gold Cup !!! 

Best of Luck,

Liam.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Whatever is going on with the croup isn't hurting his performance at present. I wonder what he looks like standing up square too
That topline can sometimes be a 'hunters bump' from an old sacroiliac injury - could catch up with him later on


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## silverxslinky (Jul 23, 2013)

I'll be interested to see what people think of this horse, as my horse also has an engine that looks similar to both this horses and the mare you posted here a few weeks ago. 

I will say that this horse appears to be long from point of hip to point of buttocks, despite having a bum that looks steep due to the lumbosacral joint being far back and high in relation to the to the point of hip.


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## silverxslinky (Jul 23, 2013)

I'd just like to point out that what I said about the point of hip being low in relation to the LS joint was incorrect. The protrusion that you see at the top of the croup is not the LS but instead the sacral tuberosity of the illium. The "point of hip" is what is referred to as the coxal tuber on this diagram. The LS joint in on on the underside of the wing of the illium. I'm not actually really sure how much you can tell about the location of the LS based on the external appearance of the horse.


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## Carrie94 (Dec 2, 2014)

My first thought was "jumpers bump," as jaydee mentioned.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

silverxslinky said:


> ...I'm not actually really sure how much you can tell about the location of the LS based on the external appearance of the horse...


Thanks Silverxslinky - and I agree it's very hard to infer where the L-S joint actually is without getting hands-on, (or what I do is tape them and slow it right down to see where the joint breaks), like with some of our horses the croup can be quite steep but you find the L-S joint perfectly placed over or even slightly ahead of the point of hip.

I suppose I'm mostly interested in that his skeleton _should_ mean he's lacking in muscle in the glutes, semi-tendinous, but maybe not or maybe they're not so important ... ?



Carrie94 said:


> My first thought was "jumpers bump," as jaydee mentioned.


Yeah - if he was a 12yr old Hunter that would be the obvious answer, but he's only raced 4 times, never injured, never even off the bridle !


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

A hunter's bump is a conformational fault, not necessarily from injury. That is why I was interested in seeing the horse standing square, as my first thought was hunter's bump.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The bump is rarely just a poor conformation - almost always the result of a strain or injuring horses like this one that have been racing over fences for a long time, constantly over stretching themselves it would be down to strain
Sometimes if they get decent rest periods between races and 'in training' they'll be OK but no saying what the long term racing success chances would be.
QUOTE:
_There are many muscles that affect the action of both the hip and pelvis. Injury and/or strain to any one of these can have a significant effect on a horse's performance and range of motion to the hindquarters. When injury or strain occurs, the adjacent muscles take up the slack for the injured one. Depending on the nature of the injury, such as when ligaments are involved, the muscles will sometimes take over as stabilizers to *limit the motion* of a particular joint in an effort to avoid further damage to the injury site. Over time, and especially if a condition becomes chronic, the compensating soft tissue becomes overworked itself and prone to injury. The muscles remain in a constant state of contraction and fatigue easily._ 
_ As the horse's body continues to compensate for the injury, certain muscles can become atrophied when they are no longer used as much and others become overdeveloped by comparison. The new compensated way of moving becomes an *ingrained pattern* in the horse's muscle memory and the body is less and less likely to return to a state of balance on its own even after the original injury has healed. Now add into that mix the creation of scar tissue, which is not very elastic and *greatly reduces* the available range of motion to the surrounding soft tissue. _
_With hunter's bump, constant strain on the sacroiliac joint and ligaments due to awkward landings over jumps, falls, overwork or bad footing can cause damage to the ligaments and soft tissue of the pelvis. Atrophy begins to occur in the muscles overlying the tuber sacrale, and along with the upward movement of the sacroiliac joint, causes the characteristic "bump" along the top of the horse's rump. _


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Yeah, a lot of people do say the bump is conformation but I think the evidence now is that it's a sign of accumulated injury.

I very much doubt Douvan falls into this category, he's only a baby. In his case, and he's a bit of a special case really ... it could be any kind of unique conformation (I say that because his ability is unreal, so he possibly has some very rare build qualities).


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Time will tell - at present he seems to be fine
It can happen from a 'sudden' trauma injury - not always accumulated
I had a 4 year old who had a sacroiliac injury from playing in the field with another horse, he seemed to recover with Chiro and rest but a year into consistent ridden work he started to 'sink' down when I got on him and then went hind leg lame. He never came right


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

He doesn't look all that unusual at the stand still; a little different than your usual TB hind end conformation, maybe.

(Closest I could find to a shot of him standing square!)


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

verona1016 said:


> He doesn't look all that unusual at the stand still; a little different than your usual TB hind end conformation, maybe.
> 
> (Closest I could find to a shot of him standing square!)


Great photo - thanks for that, he doesn't look so unusual at all there ..

I wonder is it that his L-S joint is so well positioned that it makes his sacral-tubor (or point of croup) _appear_ very pronounced at the gallop, just that he has such a fine joint there at the L-S, positioned well forward and with a good angle to open?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

He doesn't. I wonder if the way he stretches himself over a fence creates an optical illusion


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> He doesn't. I wonder if the way he stretches himself over a fence creates an optical illusion


I don't get you ? ... he doesn't _what_ ? oops, you mean he doesn't look unusual ? .. ofc I agree,

and it's not just over fences, he shows a convex shape from point of croup to point of buttock at the gallop ...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It's the convex shape combined with the oddly set back high croup that sets alarm bells ringing - but if a horse is sound then you just have to focus on that
Off track LTG - but I see the Shirocco mare Annie Power is running at Cheltenham, I know you fancied him as a possible sire to use on your mare


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> It's the convex shape combined with the oddly set back high croup that sets alarm bells ringing - but if a horse is sound then you just have to focus on that
> Off track LTG - but I see the Shirocco mare Annie Power is running at Cheltenham, I know you fancied him as a possible sire to use on your mare


Yeah - we actually have a Shirocco filly due in April ! It'll be very interesting to see the foal, he's a sire with huge potential to be the top NH stallion,

Back to the OP, the horse himself will be seen in full action also - first race on Tuesday - could be fireworks if he finds what he promises.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hopefully the race will be put on Youtube by someone as I don't think I can get it 'live' or on TV at all here


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

jaydee - the replay will be on At The Races - UK and Irish Horse Racing video, form, tips, odds and news - you need to register to watch replays but it's free and you can look up most UK/IRE races on it. I obviously use it often, but it's handy for anybody following the racing. The race won't be up immediately but should be up quick enough being Cheltenham. Otherwise, if you want to watch it live i say openign a paddypower account is your best bet (no pun intended!) - I think it's a total of €2 to watch a race live - so stick 1 each way and you'll be happy away


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

Douvan was very very impressive, I say his summer holidays will work wonders for his development and I would think he will be very impressive come the start of the jumps season again. 

Poor Annie Power looked to have the race in hand when she fell. Excluding the obvious disappointment of her fall it was definitely some day for the Walsh/Mullins/Ricci connections.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RAqV6HqWhac

(Douvan runs about midfield, light pink silks)

actually Maple, while ATR is a great resource the only downsides is that they don't have Cheltenham or Royal Ascot.


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