# guess the color game



## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Is the sire homozygous for black or tobiano or both?


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Hi JC stallion is homozygous tobiano.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Assuming your mare is actually bay not brown (which is often mislabeled "dark bay"), then your possibilities are black and bay with tobiano (the degree of expression, however, is another matter altogether). If your mare is actually brown (which is highly likely), then your possibilities are black and brown with tobiano (again, the degree of expression is a crap-shoot).

Do you have a pic of your mare?
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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Foal should be a bay/brown, black or chestnut tobiano.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

JCnGrace said:


> Foal should be a bay/brown, black or chestnut tobiano.


This is correct, not my babble. Lol. Missed that the sire is only homozygous tobiano, not homozygous black as well.
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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Hmmm, yes Draftyairesmum ever since the most enjoyable BAB thread I have wondered if Phoenix is actually brown






as opposed to bay


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Beautiful girl who is most definitely brown. In that second pic, the cinnamon points under her elbow and flanks give it away.
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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Yay! A bad *** brown! Yes, she is a very beautiful girl, I am looking forward to her foal though as the time gets nearer I am nervous, I just want everything to go well ending with a healthy mum and baby. 

So what is your call on color? So far we have ascertained it is going to be either brown/white, chestnut/white or black/white. Which way do you think it's going to go? 

I'm going with chestnut and white based on the strong chestnut influence of the Suffolk Punch.


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## horseNpony (Sep 27, 2013)

Well, Ill jump in with a random guess of Piebald  Not sure why, but I just get this feeing foalie will be black and white


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

With black being dominant over red and both parents carrying one black gene and one red gene, I'm leaning more toward a black/white foal.
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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

75% chance black based (brown or black)
25% chance chestnut

There is a possibility that the mare is homozygous agouti in which case you cannot get black. 

I vote brown tobiano 
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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

If the mare is by a Suffolk then I'd say the likelihood is hetero and not homozygous for agouti. She would most likely be EeAa and if the stallion is Ee TbTb aa then you will get 50% chance for chestnut or black based. As tobiano is dominant you would expect color expression and only a 25% chance of carrying agouti which would be expressed only on a black base. As she is brown then then agouti passed would be brown type.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

QtrBel said:


> If the mare is by a Suffolk then I'd say the likelihood is hetero and not homozygous for agouti. She would most likely be EeAa and if the stallion is Ee TbTb aa then you will get 50% chance for chestnut or black based. As tobiano is dominant you would expect color expression and only a 25% chance of carrying agouti which would be expressed only on a black base. As she is brown then then agouti passed would be brown type.


Where are you getting the 50% chance chestnut or black based?
If the mare and stallion are both Ee... Then if you do the square, it is 1/4 EE, 2/4 Ee, 1/4 ee. Add the EE and Ee together as homozygous black and heterozygous black both create a black base and it is 75% chance black based (black/brown) and 25% chestnut.
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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Ha Ha..... the game is afoot!!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

You're right. I don't know what I was thinking except that Suffolk would be ee....My bad.


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## Pebbles42 (Mar 6, 2015)

kiwigirl said:


> Ok, this is for the color smarties out there (of which I am not one). My mare Phoenix is due to foal anytime soon. I thought it might be fun for you all to put forward your suppositions on what color the baby is going to end up. Whoever gets the color correct is the winner.
> 
> I have no idea how color genetics work so all I can do is give you the basic color info I have at my disposal:
> 
> ...


Dark bay carrying grey... Black Paint... Right? 
So I'm confused. :think:Aa restricts the black to bay, At makes seal brown, and AA is wild bay, I believe. (Tell me if I'm wrong) 
So that means homozygous black with Aa agouti so definitely black but the agouti may dilute it and Phoenny is a grey carrier so... 
75% Greying bay
25% Greying black... 
If I did it right... :???:


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Pebbles42 said:


> Dark bay carrying grey... Black Paint... Right?
> So I'm confused. :think:Aa restricts the black to bay, At makes seal brown, and AA is wild bay, I believe. (Tell me if I'm wrong)
> So that means homozygous black with Aa agouti so definitely black but the agouti may dilute it and Phoenny is a grey carrier so...
> 75% Greying bay
> ...


A is bay, At is brown and A+ is wild bay. 

Phoenny does not carry grey and not homozygous black as her sire was chestnut and so could not give her a dominant black gene. Grey is a blanket that does not hide or skip generations. Her dam was grey but she did not give her the grey gene (was a heterozygous grey with a 50% chance to pass the grey gene). When two black based horses are bred and they are heterozygous black, there is a 25% chance to produce a homozygous black based foal, a 25% chance to produce a chestnut foal and a 50% chance to produce another heterozygous black based foal. Then you add the agouti to separate the chance between a black foal and bay/brown

When agouti status is posted, unless they tested through PetDNA, it is always shown as "A" and not as "A, At or A+". AA means a horse is homozygous for agouti and cannot produce a black foal. Aa means heterozygous agouti and a 50% chance for agouti to be passed to a foal.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Sorry to waste everyone's time. Phoenix lost the foal so all is a moot point.


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## Pebbles42 (Mar 6, 2015)

SunnyDraco said:


> A is bay, At is brown and A+ is wild bay.
> 
> Phoenny does not carry grey and not homozygous black as her sire was chestnut and so could not give her a dominant black gene. Grey is a blanket that does not hide or skip generations. Her dam was grey but she did not give her the grey gene (was a heterozygous grey with a 50% chance to pass the grey gene). When two black based horses are bred and they are heterozygous black, there is a 25% chance to produce a homozygous black based foal, a 25% chance to produce a chestnut foal and a 50% chance to produce another heterozygous black based foal. Then you add the agouti to separate the chance between a black foal and bay/brown
> 
> When agouti status is posted, unless they tested through PetDNA, it is always shown as "A" and not as "A, At or A+". AA means a horse is homozygous for agouti and cannot produce a black foal. Aa means heterozygous agouti and a 50% chance for agouti to be passed to a foal.


Oh but what I mean is the foal will be homozygous. It said her sire was grey so I thought SHE would be grey... Grey is rather dominant.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

kiwigirl said:


> Sorry to waste everyone's time. Phoenix lost the foal so all is a moot point.


I am sorry about the loss, it is never easy to lose a horse no matter if they were a lifetime companion or a foal you were excitedly waiting to enter the world. *hugs*
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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Pebbles42 said:


> Oh but what I mean is the foal will be homozygous. It said her sire was grey so I thought SHE would be grey... Grey is rather dominant.


If the foal wasn't lost, it was still a 25% chance of being ee (chestnut, no black), 25% chance EE (homozygous black) and 50% chance of Ee (heterozygous black)

If the mare (who is Ee heterozygous black) was bred to a homozygous black, all it would do is guarantee a black based foal but it would be 50% chance Ee and 50% chance EE. 

Only way to guarantee a homozygous black foal is if both parents are homozygous black. 

Grey is dominant but it works just like everything else that is dominant, 50% chance to be passed when heterozygous. With one grey parent, if she was a bay based grey (which the OP's mare is not), she would only have a 50% chance to pass that gene. My family has bred grey mares. The homozygous grey mare always produced grey foals. Both of her heterozygous grey daughters produced non grey foals. Another heterozygous grey mare we had produced 2 grey foals when bred to a black stallion, the heterozygous grey daughter produced 2 grey foals when bred to non grey stallions. It is just a flip of the coin when breeding heterozygous grey horses LOL
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