# need help drawing water



## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Maybe this will help. I feel like it needs water in the background. Like I said, I'm not good with scenery so most of my drawings just have a shadow under or around the subject so it doesn't look like it's floating in the air. Do you think it's okay as is or would it look better with the lake surrounding him?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I think if you're not confident drawing water, then leave it as it is. If you flood the background with an attempt at water, you will ruin the whole drawing - which by the way is VERY good! 
You could perhaps put your pencil on the side and put a little shading under the pier and work it outwards in a light 'swirling' pattern but don't work it all the way up past his head or again, you'll 'flood' the background.


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

> If you flood the background with an attempt at water, you will ruin the whole drawing



That's my fear. You're right, I'll do what you suggested and stop there. Thank you sooo much for the response!
​


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

No problem at all, glad I could help  You just need to remember with drawings like this, that less is always more. Some artists like to draw a realistic background into their work, and it certainly works on some pieces, but others it takes to focus away from the subject, which you do not want in this one as the corgi is obviously what you want to focus on. 
Be sure to post a photo of what you end up doing with it


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Okay, here's what I did. Instead of my pencil, I used a dirty tortillion and kneaded eraser. It's hard to see, but I did blend it out up to his muzzle, getting lighter the farther I went out. Thank you again, Kayty for your help and please let me know what you think of my changes!


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## midwestgirl89 (Jul 7, 2009)

I like the second due because it makes the dock he's standing on have more depth. 
Looks good!


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Thank you!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Much beter  I would even get a little braver with the shading just along the edge of the dock, and go a little darker, to give the impression of height.


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## payette (Jun 3, 2010)

Kayty said:


> Much beter  I would even get a little braver with the shading just along the edge of the dock, and go a little darker, to give the impression of height.


 I totally agree! The water you've done works well in your picture.


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## Frankiee (Jun 28, 2010)

That's very nice !!!! Your really good! and if your not certain what to add in other drawings just remember somtimes adding to much can ruine a picture. But you did awesome on that drawing!!! =D


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Thank you everyone! I'll add a little more shading along the pier like Kayty suggested.


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## midwestgirl89 (Jul 7, 2009)

payette said:


> I totally agree! The water you've done works well in your picture.


I 'third' the motion


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

So you think it looks okay as is?


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I like the second one best. LOVE the dog's coat!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

3neighs it definitely looks ok as it is for sure, you could EASILY get away with leaving it, I just think, from my own experience, that adding that liiiittle bit more depth to it will really draw the pier and dog off the water  But hounestly, if you're worried about overworking it (which can happen, I've done it before, you think a little bit here, oh I might do a little bit more here, and just a bit more here, and suddenly you go OH ****** I've over done it!) then I would leave it how it is


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Thanks equiniphile!

Okay, so I went ahead and slightly darkened that edge and I think it did help "lift" him up a little. 









As for overworking things, I think I tend to underwork my drawings. When I see your (kayty) and some of the other artists' work, they all seem so much darker and more detailed and I wonder if I'm quitting too soon. I mainly use only graphite 2b lead and I only use charcoal on the darkest areas such as the eyes and nose so maybe I just need to experiment with more of a variety of leads. I'm also not good at whipping up things from my imagination. Everything I do is from a photo and I use the grid method to get correct proportions. I know we all have our own style that sets us apart from other artists, but I really want to reach that caliber of being good enough to sell my work! :lol:

Again, thanks to everyone for the compliments and tips!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Yep I like that 

As for getting detail/tone etc. It's all practice practice practice and a bit more practice! 
Graphite and charcoal are two very different types of media and don't combine so well. I would try incorporating a 6B or even 8B pencil into your drawings to get the darker sections. 
You need to have tonal values from 1-10, with 1 being white and 10 being black, and spread them evenly through the drawing. So you'd have some 10 in the eyes, in the nostrils, a few flecks in the ears and then a few flecks through the coat in the dark areas. 

Don't worry, I'm no good at coming up with things from my imagination either, I work straight form a photograph, or a number of photographs so that I can chop and change bits from every photo to get the drawing I want  

You'll get there, you have made a fantastic start, may I ask how old you are? You have achieved excellent detail in this drawing, and I promise, you will only improve  I'll have to try and find some of the drawings I did when I started out to make you feel better!


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Thanks! I just turned 37. Drawing is something I started doing in elementary school. Got out of it by high school and studied journalism in college. (Kicking myself now for not studying art!) After first daughter came along I got into acrylic painting, but after lurking on the art forum here I decided to get back into drawing. Having never had a formal art class, I've learned everything I know from books and online. The discovery of a kneaded eraser has been a revelation for me, lol!

I will look into getting some darker leads. Can you give me an idea of where to order supplies from? There's not much around here in the way of art supply stores.

Again, thank you so much for help!


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Plenty of time to learnt then 
I'm the same, started drawing a bit and having some lessons when I was in primary school at about 9/10, then did all the art subjects in high school and started doing commissions at 14/15. Finished school and went to uni, still there- typical! And studying environmental management so no where near art! 
I've never been fond of people 'teaching' me as such, I learn best from my own trial and error and picking up hints from other artists with a similar style to myself. 

Kneaded erasers are the best! I've got stacks of them and rely on them all the time, particularly as I work mainly in pastel, it gets pretty messy without them!

My favourite graphite pencils are Derwents, you can go onto the Derwent website and have a look as I think they list suppliers.
Also have a look on Ebay, I have picked up a lot of my materials from there for cheaper and brand new! Just look up 'Derwent graphite pencils' and something should come up. I recommend getting the basic set of 12 rather than sticking to only having 1 or 2 of them, you have so much more selection that way.


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Excellent! I will check out Derwents!



> I learn best from my own trial and error and picking up hints from other artists with a similar style to myself.


That's what I've been doing, but have reached a point where I need some guidance! I'm currently working on my own horses (the pic in my avatar precisely) and am about to abandon it. I may post it for critique if I get the nerve. 

​


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## toadflax (Jul 14, 2009)

Great thread and I see Kayty has you well in hand here. I agree that your drawing skill is very strong and this is a lovely little Corgi portrait.
Darker darks really add depth and dimension to a drawing, as well as light tones.
I often use a 2B as my darkest (softest) lead, but I get it darker by layering it with harder ones, HB and 6 or 7H. I'll set the tone with 2B, go over it like lasagna with HB and 7H, and go back again the same way if I think it needs it. I less frequently use 3 and 4B, and nothing darker than 5B and that only rarely.
Just as a by the by, notice how much depth your wooden pier has in it, as simple as it is, because of the high contrast of dark shadow and light wood. Also you didn't just draw a line to indicate the spaces between the planks, you made them actual shadows, which is another reason it works well.

You don't want to turn your pictures into cartoons by using too much dark and light, and this drawing is nice enough to leave as is, but you might experiment on future drawings with seeing how dark you can go, and widening your tonal range a bit.


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

> I often use a 2B as my darkest (softest) lead, but I get it darker by layering it with harder ones, HB and 6 or 7H. I'll set the tone with 2B, go over it like lasagna with HB and 7H, and go back again the same way if I think it needs it.


See, this is where I get frustrated with my lack of knowledge. I've been doing the opposite. I start with a 2H or HB making the basic outline and shadows, then go in with my 2B and continue to layer. When I'm happy with how it's going, I'll spray a workable fixative on it and continue layering the darkest areas with my 2B, but I'm always afraid of getting a piece too dark to where I won't be able to lift out any mistakes.

My collection of pencils consist of HB, 2H, 2B, a soft charcoal and a med. charcoal, so I don't have much of a variety to work with...but that will all change! The 2B is actually a .9 mechanical pencil and I've been meaning to get a .5 as well. 

Thank you for the input toadflax! I'm definitely going to work on going darker.


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## toadflax (Jul 14, 2009)

Well I don't know if the order is really very important, but you might experiment to see if it makes any difference, since you already know to use layers. HB is a very good choice for groundwork too. 
Even going in after the drawing's pretty much set and enhancing existing dark areas a bit here and there can enhance the depth of a piece. Like Kayty was saying about darkening the edge of the pier some before, or catching the curve of a muzzle or the fur at the neck, wherever your reference suggest it or wherever you think it might help.
I use mechanical pencils a lot, .3 and .5, never tried a .9.

What sort of paper are you using?


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

I've never come across a .3, that must be tiny. Hmmm, a light bulb is going off.  

I'm using Canson drawing paper, 70 lb., 115 gsm...whatever that means. :/ It says it's a "medium tooth paper perfect for finished drawings in pencil, pen charcoal and pastel".


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Canson is lovely paper, but it can bit a bit tricky to use with graphite because the teeth grab so much of the graphite making it more difficult to get detail. Perhaps try a slightly lesser toothed paper for a bit and see how you go


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## toadflax (Jul 14, 2009)

Again I agree that given your detailed style you might find a smooth paper is easier to work with. I use plate or smooth finish Bristol, two ply which is a little heavier weight and stiffer than a regular paper. But any good quality paper with a smooth or toothless surface would be worth trying, you might be pleasantly surprised.


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Smooth or toothless paper, got it! I'll see what I can find. Thank you so much you two!


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

I just had an idea. I edited the photo of my drawing and deepened the contrast. I now realize how going darker with my work would look so much better!









Also, I was wondering, what size paper do you guys typically use?


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## toadflax (Jul 14, 2009)

what a brilliant experiment, and a perfect demonstration!
I never work bigger than 11x14 myself, many of my drawings are around 9x12 or even 8x10.


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## Equusketch (Jun 16, 2009)

I just want to say that we have yet another talented artist in here!!! Bravo! I try to avoid backgrounds with a passion and have nothing to offer you with regard to advice in drawing water. I do agree with the others that you should experiement with darker tones. 

I typically use a mechanical pencil (I think .7 mm HB lead). I use q-tips for blending the first couple layers, then go over the drawing again with the mechanical pencil for fine detail work. I sometimes use 7B, 8B and 9B graphite pencils for some of the really dark tones for the finishing touches. I have a kneaded eraser, but probably don't use it nearly as much as I should. I typically just use the eraser provided on the pencil...lol. I have what's called an ebony pencil, but I very seldom use it. As far as paper goes, I typically like smoother paper and have recently fallen in love with bristol paper which is also thick and less prone to crease lines and wrinkles. Sometimes though, I use a more toothed paper. It all depends on the effect I wish to achieve at the time. 

The enhanced image you presented looks really nice and I am sure with a little practice you will master darker tones in no time. Still, i just think the drawing is so lovely as is and I have no doubt the recipient of the drawing will agree. I hope to see more work from you in the future!!!


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Thanks Toadflax!

Equusketch, thank you for the kind remarks and revealing some of your techniques. I've seen your work and it is so stunning! 

I have never thought to use q-tips, I think I'll give that a try. I've gotten in the habit of using tortillions or blending stumps, whatever you call them. Do any of you use those, too? I'm going to order some darker leads and some Bristol paper. Hopefully I'll be able to really wow you guys with my next work.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

3Neighs, I use paper blending stumps with my pastel work, and sometimes with charcoal, but not usually with graphite. My styles I significantly different to Liz's though, I don't blend any of my strokes in to get the effect of hair, where as Liz blends but gets a hell of a lot of depth to her work.


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## 3neighs (Jul 15, 2008)

Interesting! I'm curious to see how my techniques fare with a different kind of paper.


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