# If the trainer is bad, what about the students? Experiences w/ bad trainers



## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

Bah.

I'll never understand just how a trainer, running the whole list of abuse and shoddy work toward both students and horses, can rake in so much money as to look appealing to curious competing riders. I have a few trainers in my area that even have solid places on boards as judges, and I know from personal experience myself and from other people, they're far from respectable. Scandal upon scandal happens with these guys, and still, new riders buy into the scam. The trainers I'm talking about are the ones that put on their own shows on property, and the students who win are the ones who paid the most. The business greed is appalling. Even more confusing is how some of the trainers were good about their job in the beginning, or at some points of their career, but overall it's cow chips.

It just makes me wonder, though, that even when these trainers are using shortcuts out the whazoo and doing anything to look good and have a lot of money, sometimes their students place well in a few competitions outside of the trainer's controlled bracket. Not to say most of those students of these trainers don't fall flat on their face when they compete in other regions that their trainer has no influence on--- that makes me angry the most, that they're building up these kids on false, material gains, and then when they compete anywhere else, they find out that they are horribly outmatched. I think that most "salesman" type of trainers can get a rider somewhere, and maybe the more adept of the students are able to improvise and do most of the work themselves. In other words, I think most students and horses are good, because they're good... the trainer doesn't do much other than provide them a place to ride and every now and then an honest remark (gasp!) about what they or the horse looks like. It's nothing the pair couldn't have done by themselves with a friend or video camera. 

I started thinking about this because I've been training mostly by myself for the past 3 years. I had some help, along with plenty of trouble, from said businessy trainers, and fellow horse-people. Locally I had the choice between beginner-level trainers, and cutthroat business trainers. One taste of the latter left me puking, so I stuck with the beginners who helped a bit with basics, but essentially helped by giving me input and being a pair of eyes on the ground. I had been on a riding hiatus 2 years ago off an on, so I did need help covering the basics and reminding myself. But, it didn't take long to outgrow them. Then I was just stuck and frustrated. 

I loved my first riding stable, so much so that when I had to leave I bought my primary lesson horse. It was a very professional, tidy, welcoming Show Jumper place. When I left 4 years ago, I was a level 5 ranked out of 9 levels--- I could go all gaits but still had some issues with cantering smoothly. I would say I'm a 7, at least, now. I settled and started making contacts in the riding world--- SUCH a fresh breath of air to talk with good, FEI/Grand Prix trainers again, and I decided to set up a plan to start taking lessons from them, specifically my old trainer 

Can't help but feel some pity for the riders I pass by every day, there are some good riders in there, and some hearts waiting to be broken... Haha, I won't be surprised if I end up being a trainer some years from now :lol: Just because the area needs one who isn't a beginner and isn't obsessed with cash and quick fixes.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

If they talk a good game, they make money. Think of Parelli 

I work out of a facility that has one suck trainer. She is completely clueless, her students don't place well at shows (Mine beat them easily and regularly  ) and she keeps a pretty full schedule. 

She talks a good game, uses fancy equipment and has grooms that do all the grooming, saddling etc.

Just like Parelli, real horse people don't like her either.


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## InsaneDino (Aug 3, 2012)

I've had experience with good and bad instructors.
I, thankfully, had tons of experience with a good trainer before getting a bad one. Instead of me becoming really bad, I just didn't improve much. I knew what I was supposed to be doing and how it should look, so I pretty much took control of my own lesson. I trusted my own education more than the trainer's. However, this was the trainer that taught me how to jump. I learned the incorrect way, and now I'm STILL trying to correct that teaching that has now become my instinct when I jump. I have to catch myself and remind myself of the correct way of jumping or else I'll do it the wrong way that the instructor taught me.

I think it depends on how far into training the student is. A beginner will be more damaged than an intermediate rider. Typically the further your training level is, the easier it will be to judge whether your instructor is good and worth listening to. A beginner doesn't know any better whether or not they are being taught in the right direction.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Although I couldn't care less about showing, my students like it which is cool, I don't mind coaching a show. How you compete against other riders is an indication of your education. It is a way of knowing if you're learning correctly....assuming it's a well officiated show.

As I said, I couldn't care less about ribbons, I train and teach because I like to train and teach. But if you're consistently on the bottom of the heap that's supposed to be at your level, there may be a problem.


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## 2BigReds (Oct 7, 2011)

Unfortunately, there are a lot of these people out there. My first trainer was a load of bull, and I stuck with her for 7 years not knowing any better! I was fortunate enough to have a natural seat, but when many other students from that barn ended up with my second trainer, they couldn't ride to save their lives. It was one of those, "just hold on and go!" sort of situations. On the upside, she trained fearless riders that almost never came off! :lol:

On the downside, we were pretty much all wasting money to become okay riders at best, and I now realize that a lot of the things she did were shortcuts or not particularly nice to the animals. Not that they were abused, but certainly not as well loved and fairly treated as the horses at my next barn. I felt bad for the people still training under her, (well, aside from the three or four students who had their own talented horses that she ACTUALLY trained) since they weren't learning much in the way of actually riding. I think she really just had the corner on the market, though, since no other trainers in the area were wanting to train something as risky as gymkhana.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

There a big market out there whereby the expectation is Now, regardless of how it is achieved. That is the market these trainers cater to.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

This doesn't just go on with local trainers of small scale...how could anyone utilize Shirley Roth, or CA for that matter, or Cleve Wells, or any of the others in differing breeds?

Well known in the WP world for being abusive to her horses, Shirley had no shortage of clients...who won big time too. And she was mean as hell.

And people didn't speak up because of who she knows, and their fears that if they raised sand...they would not place themselves at shows.

Just sad.


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

Ah, yes, Palo... I forgot there are some famous trainers with short cuts too x) I don't know about how much money he gets, but RG seems to have a vast fan base. He's a macho cowboy who yet claims not... to be... a macho cowboy... 

Yeah, I still haven't done much about the real nasty trainers nearby. They're influences in their niches, and I already get the cold shoulder constantly from them and their students. It does make me smile to see the handful of girls who don't care what the trainers say, and simply are polite and greet me anyway.

I also don't back up the services they use, either--- there are veterinarians and farriers, that I have or come close to using, that make blanket fixes for them and don't care about the horse. I've turned my back on those "show farriers" or "show vets" and use the older, traditional residents who have served the town for decades, they know the best professionals to work with.

It's funny that my first trainer, a Brazilian guy, said he was taught to ride as a kid basically by going in a group session and being yelled at. He's such a natural, slow to anger man, I wouldn't have guessed! I can remember doing a number of foolish things along with other riders and I'm surprised he could resist snapping at us. He would only get very stern and serious for the dangerously dumb things we did, like letting the horses get too close, cantering with no contact on the reins, hanging on the horse's mouth, or, my dumbest act, yanking the reins. Stuff like gripping too much or kicking too much were easily corrected by the horse... if you got frustrated, the school horse dumped you in the sand. I remember having such a problem cantering, that he restricted me to the far end of the arena, made me ride the bumpiest horse, and told me seriously that I was going to be stuck with that for every lesson until I could canter... because he knew I could do it, I knew I could do it, I just kept stiffening up and wanted to canter without thinking about it. All he had to do was tell me that once, and the next lesson I could do it.

My neighboring trainer now would simply chase the horse with a whip so that it would canter to the crappy cue the rider was giving, and voila! rider doesn't learn a darn thing and the horse learns to canter when someone leans forward and flaps their legs.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm kind of on the verge of being done with riding lessons at this point. I started off not that great but I was relaxed. Now I'm okayish but REALLY tense through my back, which of course nothing then is communicated to the horse. 

Folks lemme tell you. Better to have few lessons with a good trainer than lots of lessons with bad trainers.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Amen to that.
I am a good trainer  and it's much easier to teach someone that doesn't know than to re-teach someone that learned wrong.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Skyseternalangel said:


> I'm kind of on the verge of being done with riding lessons at this point. I started off not that great but I was relaxed. Now I'm okayish but REALLY tense through my back, which of course nothing then is communicated to the horse.
> 
> Folks lemme tell you. Better to have few lessons with a good trainer than lots of lessons with bad trainers.


Think long, tall, heels in the sand and breathe slowly from your heels to the end of your ponytail.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I think I found a great instructor but she's 2 hours away and hasn't replied to me since our lesson.. yes I'm willing to travel that far for quality lessons!


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

Shoo, I'll be traveling about 40 minutes to get good lessons and riding courses, so tempting just to ride up my road and literally walk in for a lesson.

I'm independent anyway, I'm pretty cozy with the plan of one good lesson every few months. The issue when I first started was that I could only go once a week, and my trainer wanted me to ride throughout the week. I didn't have any horses of my own at that point and didn't ride any other horses except the ones at his stable. I think he did pretty clever--- we all made sure that one lesson lasted me the whole week! I remember being a lump of sore Jell-O right until the next lesson.

The last few trainers taught me to slump forward and over-bend my horse =_=
Now I catch myself leaning, and my horse turning her nose rather than turning her body. I asked how to do lateral work, and someone told me to make her lead with her hindquarters. Jumping? Ugh. They taught me to hold a clenched two-point before, after, and during the jump. My honest jumper, as a result, has the occasional run-out if I start jumping early. I bob around when I do that, and she won't have it. 
Horse is the best trainer, mmhmm.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

A bad trainer is one who cannot or will not allow you to understand what it is you're doing and WHY - they treat you like a robot and say 'do this' 'do that' 'do this' with never a word of why, how, because.....and you find yourself leaving a lesson feeling like you know less then what you arrived with....they're the ones who hold their bag of secrets close to their chest.....students of these kind of trainers find themselves so dependent on their trainer that they become incapacitated if they are left to their own devices.....


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## Piper182 (Jun 18, 2009)

Muppetgirl said:


> A bad trainer is one who cannot or will not allow you to understand what it is you're doing and WHY - they treat you like a robot and say 'do this' 'do that' 'do this' with never a word of why, how, because.....and you find yourself leaving a lesson feeling like you know less then what you arrived with....they're the ones who hold their bag of secrets close to their chest.....students of these kind of trainers find themselves so dependent on their trainer that they become incapacitated if they are left to their own devices.....


I agree and disagree with you Muppetgirl. I have a lot of crappy trainers that never said what I was doing wrong, just to fix it and they ended up basically putting a bandaid on my riding. But there are so many different kinds of bad trainer. There's the money grubbing trainer who will sell you anything even if it's only on 3 legs. There's the money grubbing trainer to the rich that buys and sells 50 thousand dollar ponies and lets the kid bump around and win in the hunters but never teaches them a thing. And don't forget, there's the trainer that flat out teaches you how to ride incorrectly.

I had a trainer that I stayed with for 2 years because I was told by others she was basically the type of trainer that was around. For 2 years, I rode 2 times a week and there were 3 lessons that I DID NOT fall off. My record is 4 times in 20 minutes. Luckily I was saved by another trainer from her, but we moved to 4 barns with this lady and I found out later it was because they were threatening to call the cops with animal abuse. i wish now someone had. This is the same lady that made me hold my favorite horse while he was getting put down when I was 11. She scared me so much, I didn't tell my mom it happened til I was 18 . 

I never showed or bought with this lady (though I know people who did... they ruled the C circuit haha), she explained in too much detail why abuse was good to gain respect and screamed at me on a weekly basis. Explanation doesn't always mean a good trainer. As a trainer myself, I now only yell if something dangerous is happening and I only use whips if the people truly understand them or the horse needs the visual from their back.

People are crazy... horses are awesome


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## Liver (May 5, 2013)

Muppetgirl said:


> A bad trainer is one who cannot or will not allow you to understand what it is you're doing and WHY - they treat you like a robot and say 'do this' 'do that' 'do this' with never a word of why, how, because.....and you find yourself leaving a lesson feeling like you know less then what you arrived with....they're the ones who hold their bag of secrets close to their chest.....students of these kind of trainers find themselves so dependent on their trainer that they become incapacitated if they are left to their own devices.....


I had a few like this before moving to Florida. They just blandly stated without reason, and being novice, I didn't even understand enough to do what they said properly. They weren't really 'bad', but I could have done better with some explanation on what the heck I was doing and trying to accomplish.

Now I've got an awesome trainer. This guy explains everything.. To the point of dancing/cantering/trotting/leg yielding to help me get a visual. While, sometimes, explaining doesn't help if you still suck at teaching.. I've found that if the trainer is good at what they do, it is quite helpful! (And amusing when he canters up to jumps to emphasize his point)


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

Liver said:


> I had a few like this before moving to Florida. They just blandly stated without reason, and being novice, I didn't even understand enough to do what they said properly. They weren't really 'bad', but I could have done better with some explanation on what the heck I was doing and trying to accomplish.
> 
> Now I've got an awesome trainer. This guy explains everything.. To the point of dancing/cantering/trotting/leg yielding to help me get a visual. While, sometimes, explaining doesn't help if you still suck at teaching.. I've found that if the trainer is good at what they do, it is quite helpful! (And amusing when he canters up to jumps to emphasize his point)


For a while I thought my own original trainer that I loved so much was not explaining in words like other trainers, but it dawned on me that the guy would explain it to me over the course of multiple lessons, and it was darn appropriate when you think that I was there at the time just to hobby ride on HIS horses and he basically had the right to direct me, I felt more privileged to be there and had a Yes Sir manner that would probably have gotten me eaten alive if I went to one of those crappy money-lord trainers. I just didn't learn by words, but he was always good with telling me something if I asked about it. He wasn't grooming me for show, he just wanted me to ride correctly.

He would talk to me of course, but he would more often wiggle and move around to show the point, put me in position, get on the horse himself for a moment, and ask a nearby rider to be the model. No point in standing there and repeating the same lecture over and over every time, so he'd tell me in detail sometimes, the rest of the time encourage me to find the feel myself and give me needed reminders. His voice still echoes in my head... "Fiiiiiind your seat. Keep your eyes up. Don't let your hands/legs move around. Look where you want to go. Start turning before you get there (this is a big animal, you can't turn when you're already there). Stick her to the fence---don't take the fence home."

Some people say he's a man of few words. No, I think he's a man who doesn't repeat himself in full speech all the time.


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## Cruiser (Aug 28, 2011)

I took lessons for 8 to 10 years with one woman, I learned to sit a buck, or rear. Deal with a biting, knee rubbing, leaning on your hands horse. But I didn't learn that you shouldn't direct rein in a curb bit, what was appropriate contact, to canter outside of the edge of the arena, how to put on a bridle right, and a lot of other little things. 

It annoys me to know end that she has over 20 little girls learning to ride, extremely poorly. She give them a confidence that they are great riders, but when they ever get a chance to ride some where else, maybe they'll realize how danagerous some of those things she is teaching them is. One girl thinks she has the right to train and ride anyone's horses, her head is so in the clouds she is completely unaware to of that is really going on, just because the horse doesn't buck you off, doesn't mean your a horse's gift from God!

I rode with a another woman for 6 months and learned a lot more than the 8 years with the other. I could post, had control at the canter, what a half halt was, felt real collection is, how to use my legs right for different cues, even started small x rails.

Still pinch my knees, hands to low, arms to straight, and look down to much. But it is taking time, but as of three years ago I haven't had a lesson so I rely on taking videos/photos and looking to improve.


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## PinkStella (Feb 1, 2013)

When I started reading this thread, I was wondering, how do I know if my trainer is as good as I think she is? I have witnessed other trainers in action, but I've never taken a lesson with anyone else. She is kind and patient with people and animals and has never put me in a situation where I felt unsafe or unable to do what was asked of me, but does that mean she's a good trainer? By the time I finished this thread, it was confirmed that, yes, she is a great trainer. It is likely at some point I will ride with another trainer, somewhere, for some reason, and I'm thankful she has given me such a solid foundation.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

All trainers are different and their students are going to ride a little differently. You absolutely should ride with different trainers and the more you ride with, the more 'correct' you will develop. Even a bad trainer can teach you something


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

palogal said:


> If they talk a good game, they make money. Think of Parelli
> 
> I work out of a facility that has one suck trainer. She is completely clueless, her students don't place well at shows (Mine beat them easily and regularly  ) and she keeps a pretty full schedule.
> 
> ...


I was going to comment on this until I seen more Parelli hate.


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## LoveIsTheAnswer (May 27, 2012)

Oh my. I just wrote a story in my own forum for advice. My trainer is extremely rude and mean towards her whole barn (no one likes her, and she lost a lot of clients). She made an adult client cry. She always tell me I'm wasting her time or I shouldn't be on my horse or that I have no business near horses. I wanted to buy a horse and she told me that we get off her property or she'll throw us out. So I bought a different horse, which she couldn't say enough bad things about "this isn't a horse, it can't even get over 18 inches, a waste of time." She was a 15hh qh. But I'm dealing with it. She charges sooo much money, and is extremely not fair.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

LoveIsTheAnswer said:


> Oh my. I just wrote a story in my own forum for advice. My trainer is extremely rude and mean towards her whole barn (no one likes her, and she lost a lot of clients). She made an adult client cry. She always tell me I'm wasting her time or I shouldn't be on my horse or that I have no business near horses. I wanted to buy a horse and she told me that we get off her property or she'll throw us out. So I bought a different horse, which she couldn't say enough bad things about "this isn't a horse, it can't even get over 18 inches, a waste of time." She was a 15hh qh. But I'm dealing with it. She charges sooo much money, and is extremely not fair.


Why do you deal with this? Or are you just looking for attention?


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## LoveIsTheAnswer (May 27, 2012)

palogal said:


> Why do you deal with this? Or are you just looking for attention?


No I'm not. Of course not. It's the only barn in my area.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

LoveIsTheAnswer said:


> She charges sooo much money, and is extremely not fair.


Yet you said in your other thread she was the cheapest.


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## LoveIsTheAnswer (May 27, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Yet you said in your other thread she was the cheapest.


I know. She is the cheapest out of everyone within three hours of us. She still charges quite alot.


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## TerciopeladoCaballo (May 27, 2012)

LoveIsTheAnswer said:


> I know. She is the cheapest out of everyone within three hours of us. She still charges quite alot.


Crap, I would ask around the local farms/cattle ranches if I could use their pastures in that case... Sometimes people with large private barns of their own want a manager/live-in help and let the person keep a horse on the property. I just saw an ad like that recently, someone out in a rural area needing a live-in helper and offering free board to the helper's horse if need be.

This is a bit of a vent but, on the topic of trainers....
Now, I've been running around like a decapitated chicken for a while on the boards in a rut about what to do with my horse because I wanted to do Novice Eventing and was clueless about how to do Dressage with her because my original trainer (now fairly far away) was Show Jumper and English Equitation only with the bits of Dressage needed to do either job. I knew when I bought my horse she wasn't top-level or anything, she's 12yo now and has a Quarter Horsey build--- she ain't no uphill diva or 4ft jumping power house, she demands to be ridden skillfully, unlike the more expensive horses I rode, she doesn't go smooth and pretty unless she is ridden that way. You get what you give. 

Everybody would say, she's not active enough, she's not rounded, she's not collected--- hell, I just went and, after 3 years struggling by myself, was able to take a lesson with my good trainer, who's brought both her and me up from day 1, and knows us better than we do. Know what he said? First thing he asked was how I liked her. He didn't ask me what work we'd been doing, he didn't ask if I was competing--- no, I started mentioning that before he did, and when he was assessing us working at w/t/c to see how I could control her and how she went, he asked what we were up to at home, and I told him Eventing. He's surprised. Why? Further into my visit, I'm talking about my horse and my riding and I mention how I've been working on her topline and it just isn't coming up like I want it to. He stops me there and tells me not to be picky at all, that when they had tried Dressage on her when they first got her (she was his before she was mine), she would walk out the next day with a stiff, stiff back. She's just not built for what people would call true collection or true roundness. He was real pleased with how I'd gotten her so far, because by gum I did shovel a lot of work into her and went extremely, painstakingly slow with her because yes, I did have stiffness issues with her, I just decided to give her treatment and be very careful about how we rode. Actually, the way she's built, she gets sore whether or not I ride her with some collection. So she'll never be flexed and look like a Dressage horse. But, that doesn't mean she can't do it at all or can't look very good for being the way she is. I've been talking to a number of horse people, competitors, trainers nearby, and they haven't said anything like that.

A good trainer is one who isn't concerned about being top level or looking the best of the best... a good trainer wants a unified pair of horse and rider who can work together the best those two can. Not being THE best doesn't mean stop trying at all. The idea was always in my head, but I really needed it to be said out loud again. Phew... the horse training world can be vicious!
Bottom line, we're going to be the best WE can be, and competitions are merely the tests and gatherings along the way  Huh... now I can see why this trainer doesn't compete himself anymore and doesn't care about the levels like other trainers do. Well. I feel cozy :lol:


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