# Working with my mare



## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

a few details first......

we purchased my 4 yr old bay appendix mare almost a month ago. the previous owner said that she had been mostly pastured, rode infrequently, and usually only with a gelding that she followed around while he did cattle work. she is very buddy sour.

she is kept at a friends house right now, about 4 miles away, until we get our fencing finished. my friend has an 11 yr old mare, 4 yr old mare, and a 7 mo. old filly (daughter of the 11 yr old). they are all pastured together. i go down everyday to groom and feed her.

i try to work her everyday when there. if i can't ride, for whatever reason, i longe her. i also spend some days doing nothing but loving on her, completely separate from the others. brushing, talking to her, rubbing her, etc.

most days she is calm and focused. when i ride her, i longe her for 10-30 minutes (depending on her mood) first, with saddle on. then i climb up and ride her in the fenced pasture. the filly is usually stabled at this time and the other two mares are removed to a separate pasture. 

there is usually some resistance from her when i first get on, i.e. rearing, head-throwing and pawing the ground. up until yesterday the rearing was only 6-8" off the ground. but yesterday we had a rodeo!!!  

side note:i have on one occasion, taken her out of the pasture for a ride down the road, with my friend and the 11 yr old mare. we had a good ride, except for one moment when she spooked and i went off. i climbed right back on and the ride continued with no further problems. we rode that day for about 5 miles. the 11 yr old mare is TJ's MAIN buddy, she is always by her side when they are free-ranging.

yesterday, i longed her, rode her in the pasture, and then we attempted to go for a road ride again (with the 11 yr old mare and my friend). we got to the end of her driveway (about 1 Â½ acres away) and then it was rodeo time. she came up off the ground, straight up. looked like "hi-ho silver away". head-throwing, pawing, rearing, snorting, etc. the whole she-bang!!! this time i could not get her under control, whatsoever. as much as i hated doing it, i took her back to the barn, unsaddled her, brushed her out, checked her feet, and put her away. i know that is the wrong thing to do, but at this point our safety was first and foremost in mind. i might add that my friends' mare was doing almost the same thing, but she got under control quickly. TJ never got under control until she was back in the pasture.

we saw nothing that could have spooked them, but i realize there could have been something in the grass that they saw/smelled and we couldn't. 

i got the other mare out and we went on our ride, with no problems, for 10-12 miles. when we got home we realized that both of these mares were coming into heat. i suppose it is possible that TJ is also, but we saw no sign of it, like the other girls. (flagging, winking, etc.) both of the other mares have had babies, TJ has not (if that makes a difference?). 

so this is my BIG problem... one day she is great and the next day she is a devil child. it is very frustrating... i know she is only green broke, but is this normal to have good days and then bad ones?? 

i do have her set up with a trainer as soon as he is free. but how do i handle these problems in the meantime?


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

updates:

two days ago, my friend (Terri), her hubby (Bill), and I decided to take all three mares for a road ride.

Bill asked if he could ride TJ and of course, i said "Sure, but if you get hurt, I'm not responsible"  he, of course, laughed and said no problem. 

he got on her in the pasture, after i had longed her for a bit, and she started throwing her head and only wanting to be near the barn. he fussed back some and she finally calmed down for him.

we left the yard and rode for 10 miles, getting back to their house after it was completely dark outside. we rode on some pretty deserted roads (lots of coyote scat), one stretch of paved county road about Â½ mile, through a very small town (right down main street), and back onto a dirt road, and home. we passed dogs, horses, semi-trucks and cars, and not once did she spook!! (i ride her in the pasture and the wind scares her)

overall, i was very pleased with her that day. she did well for Bill. i've decided that part of my problem is that i'm afraid she will throw me, so i'm nervous. i HAVE to get over that!!!!  i know better.

the trainer called last nite and he is ready to take her this sunday, so all is well with that! 

i still need all the help i can get in the future with her, so help me out here guys all you want. my past experience is with well trained horses, not green-broke. but am willing to learn all i can.


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## ~* Rider in the Mist *~ (Oct 29, 2006)

You didn't mention what breed of horse you have-? As a trainer, this means a lot to me when working with clients horses. Different breeds have their own dispositions, allowing me to adjust my training to each horse accordingly.

Then there is the green broke issue. Yes, your horse is learning quite a bit during this time. She is also quickly learning between riders what she can and cannot get away with.

The other thing I have picked up on is that your horse is with new horses, and has found some great friends, some true barn buddies. Your horse is comfortable with familiar faces and her comfy stall, so going out on a trail ride that is a new experience and sometimes stressful, is not always her choice. Hence, she wants to run home and will try all sorts of tricks on you.

I am very impressed that you have decided to hire a trainer. This will help you not only understand your horse better, but you will have a professional evaluation of the situation and what can be worked out to help your horse, and your future safety. I hope that your trainer will include you in working with your horse.

In the mean time, check that your horses mouth is not in pain from teeth coming out, sore gums, an improper fitting bit or one that is too harsh (or too soft/no control) and that all of your tack is fitting well and comfortably on your horse.

Yes, mares in heat (well, mares in general) do tend to have a reputation for having unpredictable and irrational behavior at times, so regardless of the training she gets, always keep that in mind!

Make sure that your trainer is taking this horse on trail rides for trail training, since that seems to be what you do the most. Ask your trainer if he will be doing this because many trainers stay within their own facitlites to use such as their arenas, round pens, etc. That is what your horse will of course need, but your situation includes riding on the trails, so that should be part of this trainers plan, in my opinion, or else you will still have issues out on the trail regardless of how well trained your horse is under saddle.

Hope that helps, let me know how things work out


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

thank you Rider for your response......

my mare is an appendix quarter. (Sandys Honest Money x Handy Bee Jay) the top side goes back to Honest to God >Honest Pleasure > What A Pleasure > Bold Ruler, and Bar Money > Three Bars. the bottom side goes back to Tee Jay Squirt >Jackie Bee and then Our Lady Fourth > Swen Hired Hand > Hired Hand's Cardinal > Hired Hand. with, of course, a few others thrown in there like Raise A Native > Native Dancer, and others......

so, we are talking about a quarter/thoroughbred mare.

yes, she is with new horses. when i first got her, the only horses at the location she is kept, were an 11 yr old mare with her 7 mo. old filly. then a week or so after getting her there, another 4 yr old mare came. she is very partial to the 11 yr old mare, always staying as close to her as she can. she waffles on her feelings about the other 4 yr old mare, sometimes friendly, sometimes fussing.

the majority of my problems are happening in the fenced pasture, there at the barn area. when we go for "trail rides" she is always with the 11 yr old mare, and on the latest ride, with all the adults, we left the filly at home. this last time, we only had some slight problems, wanting to go back to the barn, at the beginning of the ride. after she realized that Bill wasn't going to let her go back, she settled down for the long haul, with no further problems.

the trainer came yesterday and picked her up. he checked her teeth and said that her wolf teeth had been pulled, and that he saw no tooth problems. i have been using a tom thumb bit, and he said that was ok for now. he also says she has "soft eyes" and should be no problem. plus he is encouraged by her "ground behavior". he said i could come down anytime to watch her training. 

she still has not shown any signs of being in heat. so i'm not going to worry about that for now. 

i will keep you posted, and once again, thanks for responding...


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

another interesting (to me) side note i forgot to mention in the previous post...

on the latest ride, with my friend, her husband and i, TJ took the lead on the ride. in the past, she has always been the last horse in line, prefering to follow. we weren't concerned with this because we felt it was an improvement with her, that she chose to step out in front, instead of always being behind her buddy.

i went down to the trainers last nite, and she was working good! i waited until he was done and putting horses away before i spoke with him. 

he worked in the round pen, and also worked her, walking and trotting, around barrels and the pole bending pattern. i felt this was good as it seemed to help her reining, which she doesn't like to do. i have never been able to get lateral flexion with her at all. he did!!! i was so encouraged by what i saw.

when we spoke, he said that he felt she needed a running martingale for awhile, and would implement that. he also said that more than anything, she needed miles. he was very confident that she would come along nicely and quickly. said she was a good horse!!

boy, am i glad i sent her to him........


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

this past saturday, the trainer let us know that he was taking TJ to the local arena to do some calf work. several people got together and were working some new steers, to teach them all about chutes and penning.

we went down to watch them work, and boy was she doing great!

she got right in there with the rest of them, wasn't afraid of the calves or the commotion. everyone was hooting, whistling, and just generally making lots of noise. she was doing real good with turns and stopping also. occasionally he would tie her at the other end of the arena, away from everyone else (which she hates), and of course, she would whinny, stomp and move around, but he would leave her there. she needs lots of this as she is so impatient and herd bound. hates to be tied alone!!

she is starting to keep her head down (martingale is helping) and put her butt down on stops. her laterals are much better.

we were very encouraged by watching her work. he did say that she is still very hyper at the beginning of a ride, but feels that part of this is because of the thoroughbred in her. he round pens her for awhile before getting in the saddle, and then she is ok.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

When your friend rode her and she was fine - was it with all of the same tack?


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

yes, prior to going to the trainers, she was always ridden with the same tack. 

now the trainer has her with different tack, as he prefers to use his own, instead of hers. i can't tell you what kind of bit he is using, other than it is different than the tom thumb that i was using.

trainer took her for a 7 mile road, ride this past monday afternoon, BY HERSELF. he said she did great!!! this is a major accomplishment for her, as she hates to be by herself. he told me that she is doing real good in her training, but that when she is "boxed in she gets upset". i took this to mean that anytime she is doing something she doesn't know or understand (or want to do), then she freaks out. understandable! they are working through all kinds of situations and for the most part, she is working through them. i am real pleased with him so far.


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

I really enjoy your documentation on her training! I enjoy hearing how she is progressing. I think it was very wise that you sent her to a trainer, and am happy you still get to be part of her training by watching her progress and talking to the trainer. Please keep us updated!


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

thank you kristy for saying that. i'm glad that i have someplace to share, and hope that you guys can keep me grounded and not let me forget any important things i need to think about. :wink: 

latest update:

went down to the trainers, monday night, to watch him work with her. before he started with her, i groomed her from head to toe and just spent some time alone with her.  

then he saddled up and went to work. i sat quietly in my car just watching. 
he did some round pen work with her and then took her off, into the field. they did all gaits, stops, backs, and then he took her around the barrels and poles, getting her use to the patterns at a very slow pace. this is good, cause eventually i would like to do those with her.(barrels/poles). he would circle each one a couple of times and stop/back at each. i asked him later why he did that and he said so that she didn't pass them up or anticipate a next move to soon. he also took her into a stand of thick trees which will aid me later in trail riding. took her around several obstacles(combines, carts, etc) to de-sensitize her to them, as she will occasionally spook at things. she also has an issue, once in awhile, with dogs, so his lab runs around following him and will sometimes jump up at the horse. she is getting use to him now and no longer spooks at him. at first i thought the dog should be put up when working the horse, but realized his logic with him running loose - it teaches the horses to ignore them, as loose dogs can be a big problem when out riding on roads and such. :x 

she is doing much better with lateral flexions and lead changes. those were big issues with her at first, wouldn't do them. she is now getting all her feet under her in the right order and lead changes are starting to be more automatic. before, when she would canter, all her feet were going in different directions.  

as far as the laterals, this was the biggest challenge to me. i could not get her to do them at all, so of course, i had no emergency stop with her. now we do!!  

she is doing much better at keeping her head down too. before, she always wanted that head way out in front of her and higher than her withers. it was tough for awhile because once that head went up and out, she was on her way with no stopping. :shock: 
now she pretty much keeps it at wither height or lower. yay!!!

i've been telling hubby that when she is done at the trainers, she needed to come home to our house, so that she learned to be alone. (she is very herd bound) he would not agree to that, and felt that we weren't ready for her at home, and she needed to go back to my friend's house. well!!! the trainer said she needed to come home!!!!!!! so now we have been spending every spare moment, getting a place ready for her. its almost done, and will be done by the end of this weekend!!!   
she will come home sometime next week/weekend. i am sooo happy    

so thats how she's doing............


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

went down to Nick's (trainer) last nite to visit with TJ. groomed her up and then nick showed up. he said "well, are you ready to ride her?" :shock: (actually i wasn't, had on tightest jeans i owned) i said sure!! :lol: 

took her into the round pen first and he showed me all she has learned. boy is she a different horse.
very slight pressure on the reins, she responds!!!! i went to stop her in the old way and she did a sliding stop!!!! bout fell off her backend.  i honestly thought she was going to sit down and i would slide right off. 

i took her out into the field and rode around. did very well. then i took her around the barrels and poles at a walk and one time a trot. she responded very well there also. 

i was extremely nervous and told nick i was. he told me i "sit a horse well" and that after watching me, he felt i will have no trouble riding her in the future. he told me again that she mostly needs lots of miles put on her and that the best thing i can do, when i get her home, is to ride her down the road, mostly walking. both days over the weekend, he took her road riding (which is what i do most) and said she did everything as asked. said he's done just about everything he can think of, that i would be doing with her, except he hasn't taken her into water (like a creek). said he would try to work on that this week.


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## wyleeluver (Jan 7, 2007)

have you ever thought about putting your horse on some kind of mare suppliment that stops them from going into heat. That might have been why you have some good days and some bad ones


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## barnrat (Jan 1, 2007)

I dont think supplements would help... :roll: 

I think the best thing, just like the trainer said, is miles.  

I think you found a great trainer also!


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

TJ is home now and doing good. at first she was very upset about being all alone, but she is adjusting fine. was even off her feed for a few days but she has started eating normally now.

last week my friend came up with her two horses and we went for a 12 mile ride, my daughter riding my friends other mare. we did really good.  had a couple of small episodes where she wanted to go back home but we worked through them quickly and off we went. had no probs otherwise. we even cantered some, so i was very pleased. 

we are settling into a good routine and she is starting to see me as her buddy now. meets me at the fence everyday at feeding time and will even stop eating to get a few rubs/loves in. she is accepting the dog and the peafowl really well, to the point of trying to make friends with them, even though they're not into her at all yet.  you should see those peacock run when she tries to nuzzle them. :shock: 

overall things are progressing very well. i am sure pleased so far. :wink:


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## barnrat (Jan 1, 2007)

Thats Very exciting, I am very happy to hear of the improvement in your mare! She Is even taking a liking to you and gets excited when you come to her!


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

i have a problem.....need help........any advice?

i saddled up tj yesterday to go for a ride down the road. everything was going good until we got to the end of our driveway. she wanted to go left, i wanted to go right.

so i thought, we will be relaxed today, lets see where she wants to go. (first mistake) she will go calmly and quietly to the left for about a 1/4 mile. then she stops and will go no further. so i turned her in circles, and she went a little further.

i decide its time to go the other way. she goes as far as back to my driveway and will go no further. so we go in circles again until she will go a little further. we did this quite a bit. just a short ways from my place is a bridge over a creek. she has gone over this bridge several times with no problems. but yesterday she would not step on it at all. we get as far as the bridge and she stops. nothing i did would get her to cross it and go on. 

we had the head throwing, rearing, snorting and the whole she-bang. so we did circles.

finally, after becoming quite frustrated and getting angry, i decided it was time to stop before i lost control. so i had her do something that i KNEW she would do, so that we could end our session on a positive note. 

that done, i rode her to the dreaded hitching post and tied her up for awhile. (she hates being tied up and left) as long as i stayed right by her side, she was very calm, sleepy-eyed, and stood still. if i walked away, even 5 foot, she started the pawing and even a couple times tried to take a hunk out of the wood hitching post. (sorry guys, but i smacked her nose for that) she even started on the rope, chewing on it, like she was trying to get it untied. so back i go to her side. calm, cool, relaxed. 

ok, i get all that. she just wants me there beside her. that i understand. but i don't understand why she will only go 1/4 mile in one direction, stop, and about 1/16 mile the other direction. is it because my place is her safety zone and she can't/won't leave it?? 

how do i get her to go further?? i am at my wits end on this one. i'm not a novice. i've been riding since 10 yrs old. but this has me baffled. is there something i'm missing??

sure i could probably get off, walk her across the bridge, mount back up and MAYBE go on. but at this point, i doubt it.

help???


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

mommadog, it sounds like you are dealing with a very insecure horse with little confidence. But, it also sounds like she has gotten her way a bit. I think at this point in time, she really needs to understand trust and guidance. I also think with her personality, (I am guessing) it would be the best option.

Do things your way. Everything. This does not! have to be done forcefully or negatively, it just simply means you are the boss and all decisions are up to you. Allowing her to make the first move grants her control and a feeling of being the leader; make every choice for her. 

You will get resistance. Be calm and patient. Patience is something I can not stress enough for this situation. It is key. When you become tense and angry, she will feel the tension, sense the frustration and resist more due to fear and an unsure leader. When she follows through and does what is asked, praise her. Build her confidence up and really act as if she just defeated the world. Set small goals. Tackling what she thinks is the world in one day can be over whelming. 

A lesson I would possibly consider for one day:
Head out to trail. Go the direction you know she does not want to go. If she resist and will not go further, push her along. Have a mindset of moving forward constantly. Don't anticipate her stopping. If she stops and will not move forward, stand. This may take a bit of time, but make it the point that if you aren't going forward, you aren't going anywhere. If she prances or turns toward the house, pull in a small circle, and ask to go forward again. Repeat if she does not move. She will understand that you will not be backing down. End the lesson when she is moving forward on her own will. If you become angry, stop her, make her stand and collect yourself. This trail ride may be short in distance. When you get back to the house, tie her up. Walk away. If she resist or pouts, only come to her if she is in a dangerous situation. Do not baby her when she resist. She must learn patience. If she has separation anxiety, tying her and walking away will benefit her on the trail and when being tied. She will understand to accomplish her anxiety with time. 

Another:
Trail ride her again. Choose either direction, reach the point she stops and ask to go forward. Repeat exercise above. Remember BIG praises. (She just saved the world, right?) Have a quiet body and hands. Try to be as calm and relaxed physically and mentally as possible. End trail when she is moving forward. Go back to the house, pick a spot and work her. She sounds incredibly barn sour. Going back to the house, being untacked, turned out, able to graze and socialize sounds wonderful, there is no reason she wouldn't want to return to the house! Make a point that returning to the house does not mean the end of work. Try not to feed her when getting back to the house. Try keeping in mind to keep the trail being as desirable as possible and the house not as desirable. Perhaps you could even graze her on the trail to make in more enjoyable.

I hope this helped a tiny bit. Just remember quietness, patience, big praises and eventually she will get the hang of it =)


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## smart_slider (Jan 24, 2007)

the only thing i can say is that if she acts like that, be the boss. You are the one who controls her, not the other way around. You allow her to be under you and to pay attention. if she bucks and runs, just turn her in small circles, and work with her. NEVER get off if she bucks(good job gettin back on!) or rears. if she rears, pull her head to one side. if she buck's, HOLD ON!!! just keep playin with her. she needs to learn to be able to do things with you alone, no other horses. 
ss


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

ok kristy, i'm gonna try to address this in the order you posted your response. LOL

we bought this horse at a "horse sale" in oct. she has had several owners, between the original breeder and me. i'm sure that most of the sales were because people couldn't/wouldn't work with her. she is appendix reg. QH, now 5 yrs old. she was sold as (your fav term) "green broke". ok no prob for me. but in reality what i got was an extremely barn/buddy sour horse, that had virtually no training. she didn't know how to respond to a bit, and all she knew how to do was follow other horses (her buddies) around, doing whatever they were doing. 
so yes, i would have to agree with you that she is probably very insecure, little confidence, and spoiled.

now let me interject this side note: 
once i bought her i HAD to take her to my friends' house and keep her there for awhile. she had 3 horses, and of course, tj latched onto the alpha mare there. they became great friends and she followed libby everywhere she went. 
i sent her to the trainer for 5 weeks. he worked very hard with her and i am comfortable and happy with the results from his work. 
THEN, she came home to my house. main reason? the trainer (NICK) said that because she was so buddy sour, she needed to go to my home where she would be ALONE and have to learn to depend on ME for companionship and that she could survive alone. so we brought her home and i do ALL care of her. my hubby (even though he can) will not feed her or help with much of anything (he did help me blanket her last weekend), so that she has to depend on me. somedays i will go to her several times throughout the day and just visit with her. rubbing, brushing, talking, etc. other days i just go down twice for her feedings. 
throughout everything, her main focus(NOW), almost 24/7, is the cows across the road from our place. she will stand at the south end of her pen and just watch them. she will even stop eating to turn and watch them. there is nothing i can do to stop this, because right now that is the only location for her to be. later on this spring, we will be fencing in a larger pasture for her, but even there she will be able to see the cows. THERE ARE NO OTHER Horses here. there are some drafts 1Â½ miles west of us, but she can't see them of course. 

now back to my main problem.....

i do not anticipate her stopping because somedays she will go on. so i never know from one day to the next which one will happen. when she stops, i will turn her in a few circles and then attempt to get her to go forward. sometimes she will, other times she will not. its those times (not) that she will get angry and start rearing. she will turn circles all day (till i'm dizzy)  BTW, she doesn't like to stand still either, and will start her rearing then too. OR she will start backing up. one day she backed over 100 yards. :shock: 

when she starts the rearing, i will grab one rein low and start turning her. 

let me add this......the SECOND she does good, i release the rein pressure and start praising her abundantly. i know it is so important to release when they do what you want. and i love how Ken McNabb says to take them where they want to be and work the crap out of them. i have tried to do this anytime i have a problem with her. thats why yesterday when she only wanted to go east, i said ok, and then i worked her as much as i could in that location. and then when we got home, i didn't put her up. i tied her to the hitching post that she hates the most. she stood there for at least an hour. i already posted above what happened there.
once she was standing like a good girl (alone) for several minutes, then i unsaddled her, groomed and put her away. 

with all that said, i think you have her pretty well figured out. :lol: so i will do what you have suggested and see what happens. hopefully i can do this tomorrow afternoon. thanks for all the help.


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

Goodness mommadog, you've had a tough time.  I wish she were "green broke" and you didn't have to go through what you didn't expect, BUT, I think this whole situation will result into a great, deep and trusting relationship. I am excited for you when things.. um.. calm down. :wink:
I have to admit, she is such a character. Longingly starring at the cows.. too funny. My horse is terrified of cows, yours.. wants to become one. :lol: 
Anyway, cut yourself some slack! I think you are doing a great job as it is by devoting so much time to her. That's really wonderful. Pat on the back to you. I also don't think you're so much of a novice after all!
Anyway, I have an appendix quarter horse whom has had time for about every training issue in the world after being around for 22 years. The things he conjures up... :roll: But, I do understand the barn sour problem, as well as resisting to go forward and for some reason unable to physically stand in one spot for a brief period of time. I just wanted to add that when you ask her to stand, any movement she makes should result in a sharp circle. I make sure I am not asking them to move forward in anyway when in the circle. They eventually realize the unnecessary work and stop. How long they stop is uncertain. 
Anyway, I think you got it down. =) Please do update!! If this falls through and doesn't work, we can always make a plan B.


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

kristy said:


> I have to admit, she is such a character. Longingly starring at the cows.. too funny. My horse is terrified of cows, yours.. wants to become one. :lol:


i think this is 
#1 cause she's lonely, and 
#2 nick worked her at the arena moving steers, so she is familiar with cows.  



> I also don't think you're so much of a novice after all!


ahhh hah!! i see, so you thought i was  :wink: 




> Anyway, I have an appendix quarter horse whom has had time for about every training issue in the world after being around for 22 years. The things he conjures up... :roll:


since you have one too, do you find him to be somewhat friskier than an reg QH?? more hot so to speak?? and if so, what do you do, to calm him?



> But, I do understand the barn sour problem,


oh man, is that ever a pain in the ar*se :x 



> They eventually realize the unnecessary work and stop. How long they stop is uncertain.


i hope she learns this real fast. she is doing far more unnecessary work than she needs too.  



> Anyway, I think you got it down. =) Please do update!! If this falls through and doesn't work, we can always make a plan B.


i better have it down, cause i'm running out of options here. Plan B??? 
oh man, i hope its better than one suggested....... (Â½-1cc Ace), cause i certainly don't like that idea at all!!! :evil:


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

> ahhh hah!! i see, so you thought i was :Surprised: :Wink:


YOU TOLD ME YOU WERE!! YOU SAID IT FIRST!! :lol: *pout* :lol:



> since you have one too, do you find him to be somewhat friskier than an reg QH?? more hot so to speak?? and if so, what do you do, to calm him?


Oh Lord yes. He makes sure that I do NOT forget he is half TB. He fortunately is older and in the "quiet" stage. After working with a lot of younger horses, I'm so glad to come home to an older horse. I do miss his youth, though . Regardless, he is full of life and energy. I switched his feed from sweet feed to senior. I also have him turned out half the day and used as a lesson horse. When I want to ride, I lounge him first if he is full of himself to get the "stupids" out. I then try to maintain his energy when riding. If I were to go on a trail, I would probably lounge briefly, warm up in the arena and then go on a trail. I believe this prepares us, in a sense. I get a feel for his mood, he dispenses extra energy. Switching feed was a wonderful thing, though. It was the most effective. 

There are also supplements to calm horses. They claim to have all natural ingredients, but I'm not very familiar with them. (I would look up the effects of the ingredients and such) Some examples -Vita-calm, So-kalm, and At-ease. At-ease described the product like: 'A natural calming agent with thiamine, tryptophan, magnesium, and pyridoxins to take the edge off horses without sedation"
I've noticed most contain tryptophan. Here's a great but slightly disappointing website on tryptophan: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15993787&dopt=Abstract
But maybe there is another natural remedy? No traqs though


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

i really don't consider myself a novice, BUT, i am when it comes to training/working with a horse like tj.  

i have quite a bit of experience riding as far as in western pleasure, pole bending, trail classes, etc., plus bareback bronc riding, and really lots of experience riding down a road for a long ways.....  :wink: 

hubby is buying panels for a round pen. HE has already decided!!! that is my plan, to do like you, round pen her before riding to take the edge off. (she always has the "stupids") tj isn't half TB, but her top side is full of them, (bold ruler, native dancer, three bars....just to name a few)

hubby and i use to take a "natural supplement" called L-Trytophan. it was a marvelous supplement that would relax us enough to sleep at night. then they took it off the market cause some people died (they had heart probs that were affected by it).
i am very familiar with trytophan and love it. hubby was a "Type A personality" for many years and most of the time that was all he could do to help him relax. 
you know why men always fall asleep after eating a big thanksgiving dinner???? turkey is naturally full of trytophan..... :shock:


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

mommadog1956 said:


> hubby and i use to take a "natural supplement" called L-Trytophan. it was a marvelous supplement that would relax us enough to sleep at night. then they took it off the market cause some people died (they had heart probs that were affected by it).
> i am very familiar with trytophan and love it. hubby was a "Type A personality" for many years and most of the time that was all he could do to help him relax.
> you know why men always fall asleep after eating a big thanksgiving dinner???? turkey is naturally full of trytophan..... :shock:


Good, you're familiar! I really do wonder the effects it has on a horse. They haven't done very many studies, but the studies are increasing due to more and more people giving it to their horses. I took melatonin(sp?) to sleep at one point in time and it worked very well. Surely, if I can find natural remedies that benefit me, it's possible for a horse as well? Very interesting. Perhaps you could find a supplement meant for relaxation with ingredients you're comfortable with and give it a try. Who knows, it may work miracles or not work at all. :idea:


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

yesterday went no better........  

i took her to the end of the driveway and of course, she wanted to go left. i let her go to the left and then i did circles, to show her that its not a fun place to be, but that she will have to work there. she didn't care, just started rearing and trying to go where she wanted. [ the only reason i can think of as to why she wants to go left, is cause when we brought her home from Nicks, i rode her the entire way home. to get back to Nick's is the direction she wants to go. (8 miles away) it was not a pleasant ride for her, that day we brought her home, as i made her work the entire way home, and by the time we got here, she was exhausted. literally, she could hardly take another step!!! but its still the only direction she wants to go. ]

then i took her into our big pasture and she rode fairly good in there, except for her wanting to go fast. i mostly made her walk & trot, which she didn't like, but i didn't care. for the most part, i had control of the situation. 

then i took her back to the road and went to the right, towards that dreaded bridge. it was a rodeo all the way. i finally got her to the bridge and she would go no further. i dismounted this time and attempted to lead her across. we got to the the middle of the bridge and i stopped her for a few minutes, letting her see it was nothing to be afraid of. she kept looking back towards the house and would try to go back home. so i walked her on across the bridge to the other side, i stopped and just stood there. then i took her a little farther and stopped. we did this 4-5 times, go a few steps further and then stop. then i mounted back up. 

she immediately tried to go back home. so more circles, and the standing still. all the while she tried to look towards home. (remember there are no other horses there, just her pen/barn)

i know she has gotten control of the situation.  it appears she has become so afraid to leave the confines of her pen, that to get too far away, she has to get back. one way or the other. she almost went over backwards one time. that was scary...   i just don't know how to get control again.  

hubby was there with me this time and he told me to put a whip to her and make her mind. (this from someone that has no actual horse experience other than TV) i would not whip her. she is so touchy that the slightest movement makes her want to leap forward. IF i get her to go forward, she wants to go as fast as possible, but not straight, she wants to veer off the road into the ditch or pasture, but its not safe footing. and she is very hard to control at this point. its like she has gone back to the stage of no rein control. she will go forward a few steps and then whirl around the other direction. (when she whirls around, its almost like a "roll-back".) 

i'm now questioning everything. is the bit right for her? is there something wrong with the tack? feed too high energy?, etc., 
we have her in a short-shank dogbone snaffle, which is what Nick wanted her in for more control. he said it works best for her, but i'm not so sure now. i have almost no control. one time yesterday, she even had the bit in her mouth sideways - the left shank was completely inside her mouth. :shock: i had to dismount to correct it, and then re-mount. (i've had all her tack checked by Nick and he says everything is fine.) 

finally, i took her home and tied her to that (hated) hitching post and left her there for awhile. she, of course, pawed and circled the post for awhile, but finally just stood there. she was home and safe(in her mind), so it was ok with her. once she was standing still, consistently for about 30 minutes, then i went back to her, took her to the barn, cleaned her up, blanketed her, and put her away. she was calm, sleepy-eyed, and generally a completely different horse. 

you know the funny thing is, once i put her back in her pen, she just stands there like "hey, come back here, i want to be with you!!". she obviously wants to be with me, but on her terms, not mine. 

so, to sum it up, on the ground she is wonderful. mounted she is a wild, unmanagable devil creature. SOMETIMES!!! :shock: i know she has gotten her bluff in on me. "if i start rearing, she will get scared and get off me". (yes, i get scared when she rears up high, its not safe.) i can handle those little rears, but not the "hi-ho silver" ones, where she's almost straight up. 

time for plan B??? (round pen is not coming soon enough)

BTW - kristy - i heard a lady today say that she has a little bag of lavender that she lets her horse smell before working and he calms right down. ever hear of that one???


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## daveb (Jan 24, 2007)

*Getting in the miles*

Have you tried leading her along on the route you want to take? If she is forced to go the way she doesn't want to go a few times, she may stop trying to assert herself as much. My mare is much better behaved under saddle when exercise her by running on the lead. She burns off some energy and I can focus intensely on making her listen to me.

While ground work isn't the same as riding, it does contribute to "getting in the miles".


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

Yes, lavender is chemically believed to have relaxing effects on humans and (from what we can tell) animals. I use lavender lotion at times when I'm wanting to sleep or calm down. Lavender has wonderful properties.



> she almost went over backwards one time. that was scary... i just don't know how to get control again.


I believe a good horse person has the ability to distinguish when they are in over their head. 
Momma, from my internet view, I feel as if you have done what you could. I think now, continuing with the same methods will only result to the same behavior rather then progress or change while increasing the probability of you getting hurt. 



> she wants to go as fast as possible, but not straight, she wants to veer off the road into the ditch or pasture, but its not safe footing. and she is very hard to control at this point. its like she has gone back to the stage of no rein control.


It is also possible of back tracking at this point. Problems escalate into a disaster and a rider can be 12 steps behind where they originally started.

At this point, it isn't worth getting hurt over or even risking injury. I think getting help from a professional is going to be the safest and sanest alternative. I think the biggest thing to consider now is:

a. Do you truly want to spend the endless hours of hard work and quite a bit of money to correct this horse?

or

b. Look into the possibility of a new horse which you are safe and comfortable with.

I always suggest looking for any type of pain, but since she seems to raise hell only when she leaves the house, I think it isn't pain related. But, always worth checking, for sure!

Of course, these are just my suggestions from an internet stand point! Either way you decide, I'll be glad to help in any way. Let me know if I'm totally off or if you are some what nodding while reading this. :wink:


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

no Dave, i haven't tried that as yet. we got another 3+ inches of snow today, so that has once again sidelined me for awhile. i have considered that option though.

my friends hubby also asked yesterday if he could come ride her. he did a couple of months ago and really had no probs with her. i think he wants to see if it goes that way again, or if she has become so barn sour that even he can't ride her. i've also considered asking my trainer to come up and take a go with her to see what he thinks. but once again, the weather makes that option down the road a bit.

kristy:
lavender - yeah me too!! or when i want to get hubby to sleep quickly  

i agree with pretty much everything you said, and yes my head was nodding several times. hubby says: "trying the same thing, the same way, but expecting different results is called insanity". so yeah, at this point i may be insane. :shock: 

i don't want to get hurt, either one of us. but i'm not ready to call it quits with her either. i think that has happened too much in her past, and i think that is partially why she is so barn sour. not really sure where her home is, but when something/somewhere starts to feel comfortable to her, she is afraid to leave it. 

i'm not afraid of hard work. i don't know about spending anymore money on her with training though. just have to see what nick says about it. he had her for 5 weeks, and had her pretty well worked out. all this crap with her started after my last ride with my friend and her two horses. they did good on the road, but once they went back home, she started getting this way.

the farrier came today and he eventually had to put what i think was a stud chain on her. not sure since i've never seen one, only heard about them. (lead rope with a chain on the end, he put in her mouth and she worked it like a pacifier.) he tried a twitch but couldn't even get it on her. she was so intent on keeping her eye on those dang cows across the road. he finally got her feet done. usually she stands perfectly calm for him. 

ahhhh well, the continuing saga of my life with tj. it will all work out, or it won't.......


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

mommadog1956 said:


> hubby says: "trying the same thing, the same way, but expecting different results is called insanity". so yeah, at this point i may be insane. :shock:


I was thinking the same thing! But I'm so guilty of repetition. I get the mind set of "maybe this time.." or "if I could just do this.." :lol: 

I am glad you have chosen the option you have. Safety comes first, dedication comes second in my opinion. I believe you are hard working and dedicated to this girl. You've put a lot of time in her, that's for sure. The only thing I can see being an issue _is_ money, unfortunately. (I hate that money can put such limitations - mainly because I don't have it.) I still believe she will require help from your trainer eventually, but I believe it will work out.

For the mean time, what is she being fed? Have I already asked? I am crazy, you know. :wink:

And also, have you had a vet do somewhat of a pre-purchase exam? I think ruling out pain completely may be a good option. Check everything, including teeth. Does she still have her wold teeth? Also, how is her vision? Horses that are extremely spooky or resistant often have problems with their eye sight. It could be possible she has a visual problem making her extremely uncomfortable in a new environment (trail.) These are just possibilities to check in the mean time, you never know.


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

kristy said:


> For the mean time, what is she being fed? Have I already asked? I am crazy, you know. :wink:
> 
> And also, have you had a vet do somewhat of a pre-purchase exam? I think ruling out pain completely may be a good option. Check everything, including teeth. Does she still have her wold teeth? Also, how is her vision? Horses that are extremely spooky or resistant often have problems with their eye sight. It could be possible she has a visual problem making her extremely uncomfortable in a new environment (trail.) These are just possibilities to check in the mean time, you never know.


she is being fed a 14% feed mixed up special by the co-op. if you remember, we consulted an equine nutritionist about her weight issue and he works at the co-op. it has a small amt of molasses in it, but just enough for the moisture content. it also has corn, oats, soybean oil, and barley. (i think i got it all) she also gets a small flake of alfalfa in the am and a larger flake in pm. plus all the prairie hay she wants 24/7 (which she doesn't eat much of)lol.

no vet check, but her wolf teeth are gone. assuming her vision is good since she watches the cows all day and she seems to be able to see things far off. i've had nick check her out pretty good, plus the farrier looked at her teeth real good. both said she is in fine health but still a little underweight. she is up to 1064 lbs as of last week. that is a huge improvement cause when we got her she was only 934 lbs. at 16'hh. she rates just slightly at a 5 on the body conditioning scale.


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

I've been told (and disagreed with) that corn is a major energy source. Alphalpha (for sure) is another major source of energy. Could be contributing..
Have you checked alll over? Legs, joints, hips, flexion test, back soreness, and so on?


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

corn is a heat provider. while digesting corn, it produces heat or energy, to give the animal more body heat.
we feed it to our poultry that free-range and have minimal shelter (or those that refuse to go INTO THEIR shelter lol), so that they have the necessary body heat to stay warm. i give them their regular ration of "scratch grains" and add plain cracked corn to that when it is really cold.

alfalfa is an energy source also. tj only get alfalfa during the really cold months, or if/when she will be working hard everyday during the summer months. 

so yes, they are contributors. how much? that is the debatable question that people will disagree on. i believe it does add energy. thats why i have cut her morning ration of alfalfa down to a minimum, and then i don't even attempt to work/ride her till early afternoon (1-3pm). hoping it has had a chance to digest and get out of her system some. (i feed her between 8-9am). i know the alfalfa is a major reason that she sweats so much when she is worked.

as far as checking her all over.... nick checked her out said she's fine. now i know that he isn't a vet, but he works with horses everyday, that is his business. she has no apparant problems. i did have her checked by the vet when we bought her though, also with no problems found.

it will be interesting to see what happens once she is off the alfalfa though.........


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

Personally, I would pull her off of corn and alfalfa completely and switch. I HAD to with my 22 years old because of excessive energy and..stupidity. Completely different horse.


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

a few of us in our saddle club got together last nite and rented the indoor arena.

i was having my usual problems with tj, and one of the other ladies said "mind if i have a try?". "sure go ahead but if you get hurt, not my fault" i say :lol: 

she gets on tj, takes a few steps and she immediately rears up. takes a few more steps, same thing. this happened 3-4 times. she stops, gets off, leads her over to me and says "there is something very wrong here, this isn't a behavior problem, lets look things over". 

so we start looking and the first thing she says is that the saddle has slipped back to far and we need to move it forwards some. so while we are doing that she notices that the front skirt area, under the pommel is bent in, pressing into her withers. for some reason, it is permantly bent. she says "this isn't good, mind if we try one of my saddles?" (sure, i'm game for anything right now) 

so we take off tj's saddle and put one of her's on. she mounts back up and guess what????

DIFFERENT HORSE COMPLETELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

she doesn't do any of the rearing. she responds to the reins, she walked, trotted and cantered just fine. course she still wanted to go follow her buddy Libby, but was responsive to correction.

it was like night and day. :shock: :shock: :shock: 

so, bottom line Kristy!!! you were right, tack check needed.  

so when i got home and told hubby what had happened he says "get on the phone and call cindy and see if she still has that saddle for sale" so i call my friend and she says yes, i will get it to you sometime this weekend so we can see if it fits her. i told her if it did we would buy it.

this is the same saddle we have been using all along but now it doesn't work for her. it progressively got worse. we still have a few training issues that need to be ironed out, but this is workable!!!

i told hubby that you said a tack check needed to be done and that you were right. so thank you for all your help on this.......


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

That's WONDERFUL!  

I'm so glad you have pin-pointed the source. I can imagine the difference in her once removing pain. If anything, I'm glad it was tack rather then something physical. It is easy to correct and comforting to know the problem!
I'm sure she has some things to work out (as with any horse), but I assure you that with a good saddle, she will be a different horse to train. The only thing I can suggest at this point is a horse's ability to remember pain and bad memories. Although the saddle may fit, she may still be reluctant. It will take time to convince her to be comfortable rather then focusing on past pain. She may quickly forget about it. Horses vary. But as time passes, she will become much more comfortable.

Regardless, I'm very happy for you both!


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

YES it is wonderful. i am so relieved to find a problem that can be easily fixed. i was ready to give up on her last nite. now i'm ready to get in there and work things out.

all it took was someone with a different perspective, looking things over with a new eye.....can't believe we didn't find it sooner.  

i will remember what you said about memories, and i will be patient with her while dealing with old feelings. after watching her with the different saddle, i think things will progress easier.

once we get a new saddle, we will be mostly working on her barn/buddy sour issues, and getting her (finally) off the property willingly.  :shock: :wink: 

it's a wonderful day!!!!!!


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

got the new saddle, but since i last posted, we have only been doing ground work with her. 

it has been going so good, plus she is now off her morning ration of alfalfa, and that seems to be helping alot to calm her down. :wink: 

since we had three consecutive days of good ground work, i decided to saddle her up and try to ride. so yesterday i lunged her for 10-15 min. and then saddled her, lunged some more, and then got on. everything was going good. we went into our big pasture and she was walking around nicely. laterals were good, backing on command, everything smooth.

then, all of a sudden, she bolted and ran, bucking (NOT REARING) all the way. after several yards (50-100) i went off!
HARD!!!! i landed on the hard ground, knocked the wind out of me, knocked my glasses and hat off. i got my breath (sort of) and crawled around on the ground till i found my glasses and hat. then i realized there was a man standing there talking to me. he pulled me up and helped me and my perfectly quiet horse back to the house. he tied her up for me and left after making sure i was ok. (i wasn't but said i was) i called my friend terri and she immediately came up and took care of TJ. she looked her over carefully to make sure there was nothing wrong with her, and then put her away in her pen. 

i now have a very sore back/butt from landing on it, and a pinched nerve. awwwww the joys of owning/riding a horse.

we figure that something spooked her that (once again) she saw/smelled/heard and i didn't. after dumping me on the ground she calmly walked a few steps away and just stood there grazing, waiting for us to come get her. she was very calm and quiet.

hubby and i have decided there will be no more riding her for awhile until she is completely sacked out and her ground work is good and consistent (for more than 3 dys, lol)  

this is now the second time i have been dumped from her spooking. when she spooks, she really spooks!!!  this is the first time she has ever bucked. normally she only rears. 

let me tell you what......16hh is a longgggggggggg wayyyyyyyyyyy to the ground................... :shock:


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

mommadog1956 said:


> after dumping me on the ground she calmly walked a few steps away and just stood there grazing, waiting for us to come get her. she was very calm and quiet.


since she calmed down so quickly after you were "dismounted," it makes me wonder if she wanted the lesson to be over with, whether it meant bucking or not.



> hubby and i have decided there will be no more riding her for awhile until she is completely sacked out and her ground work is good and consistent (for more than 3 dys, lol)


this may very much enforce her behavior. she may (and how well they do) correlate bucking to a finished and easy lesson. if it is safe for YOU, perhaps getting back on after she does this mystery spooking may reinforce the fact that bucking gets her no where. even if it is a short ride, maybe you could get your point across.

but most importantly, I'm very very happy that you're okay. I know the shaky nervous && in PAIN feeling you get when you are thrown 70 feet across a pasture. not fun, not fun at all.


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

> since she calmed down so quickly after you were "dismounted," it makes me wonder if she wanted the lesson to be over with, whether it meant bucking or not.


very possible!!! if this is what she did, then she learned it very quick cause she has never bucked before with me. 



> this may very much enforce her behavior. she may (and how well they do) correlate bucking to a finished and easy lesson. if it is safe for YOU, perhaps getting back on after she does this mystery spooking may reinforce the fact that bucking gets her no where. even if it is a short ride, maybe you could get your point across.
> 
> but most importantly, I'm very very happy that you're okay. I know the shaky nervous && in PAIN feeling you get when you are thrown 70 feet across a pasture. not fun, not fun at all.



i'm not getting on any horse for awhile!!!! i can barely get in/out of my jeep!!! i have made arrangements with a friend of mine to come over (possibly next week) to take a look at things. 

i do realize that the main issue is ME RIDING HER, not someone else, but for the time being, i can't ride, due to my injuries. 

the first time she threw me off (well i fell after she spooked  ), she did the same thing (calmly waited). but that time i wasn't hurt so bad and i did get right back on her then! and rode her another 5-6 miles with no further problems. so she didn't get her way then. that was several months ago.


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

goodness. are you sure you're ok? it sounds like such a nasty fall.


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## mommadog1956 (Nov 6, 2006)

it really was kristy. when i first realized i was on the ground, i wasn't sure i would ever get up. i thought i had broken my hip. 

i probably should have gone to the ER, but for reasons i can't go into, i didn't and probably won't. (if my dr found out i was even on any horse, he'd kill me)

i've been at this pain level before, and i'm sure i'll be ok after a few days. good thing i have some good pain meds. :lol:


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## kristy (Dec 8, 2006)

oh, i wish you could go just to be safe, but i trust your judgment & hope you're okay. don't have too much fun with the meds...:lol: :lol: You're in pain, not paradise! :lol: :lol: (just kidding!)


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