# It just makes me sad



## wvfarrier (Sep 13, 2021)

I was parousing the new BLM auctions and saw A LOT of newly rounded up horses that were in their late teens. Why is the world are they trying to auction off 15,16 even 20 year old WILD horses???? It just breaks my heart while simulaneously making me want to cuss. We all know they are going to end up a slaughter. You cannot take a 15 year old wild stallion, castrate him and think.."oh he will make a great horse". Good grief, the BLM has got to be the most incompetent bunch of beurocrats in government. Sigh....rant over.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I think they won’t be sold. The blm doesn’t sell anything to slaughter. They will be fed and vetted and live out their days in the pens. That’s not much different than a lot of people’s horses. The pens I bought Queen out of were large. Seriously large, you had to use binoculars to get a view of the horses and decide what you were after. It’s a better life than starving on the mountain where it is overgrazed.

ETA- There are so many rules to purchasing a horse from them in an effort for them to not go to slaughter as well. Raising a horse for a year, having welfare checks, and not receiving your title until that year is over makes it impossible to make money on a slaughter. No one would do it with an intentional business purchase of that in mind.

Me saying that does not mean I am personally against humane slaughter, but it is not really a possibility for these horses. Or, better put, it is an unlikely outcome.


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## wvfarrier (Sep 13, 2021)

Knave said:


> I think they won’t be sold. The blm doesn’t sell anything to slaughter. They will be fed and vetted and live out their days in the pens. That’s not much different than a lot of people’s horses. The pens I bought Queen out of were large. Seriously large, you had to use binoculars to get a view of the horses and decide what you were after. It’s a better life than starving on the mountain where it is overgrazed.
> 
> ETA- There are so many rules to purchasing a horse from them in an effort for them to not go to slaughter as well. Raising a horse for a year, having welfare checks, and not receiving your title until that year is over makes it impossible to make money on a slaughter. No one would do it with an intentional business purchase of that in mind.
> 
> Me saying that does not mean I am personally against humane slaughter, but it is not really a possibility for these horses. Or, better put, it is an unlikely outcome.


Actually a lot of them go to slaughter. There were several new stories a few years ago that blew the whistle on it. No reason to believe its stopped.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I don’t see how it is financially feasible. I’m sure you know the cost of keeping a horse for a year.


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## wvfarrier (Sep 13, 2021)

I believe it was called the "Burns Rider" amendment. Any horse over 10 or that goes through 3 auctions is declared "unadoptable" and can be sold for consumption.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I didn’t know that. I do know a three time no sale horse can be purchased with the title. Still the paperwork has to go through for you to be approved, and that includes the stipulations for any horse to be adopted, but the year does not apply.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

They really don't sell to meat buyers. 









Programs: Wild Horse and Burro: About the Program: Myths and Facts | Bureau of Land Management







www.blm.gov




.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

No they don't go to slaughter. Oh there is a process you would have to go thru, but it's not easy.
You have to have 3 trainers (honest to goodness professional trainers, not just someone that hung their sign out), sign off on them that they had the horse for a time, and it's totally untrainable. There is a ton of paperwork that goes with the horse when you do finally get BLM nod to can it. Without that paperwork, the plants WILL NOT buy them.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

The gov't will not keep old horses around. They wont justify the cost. I have seen photos of mustangs branded in the 'auction pen ' sites for rehoming. if those do not re home they ship.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

stevenson said:


> The gov't will not keep old horses around. They wont justify the cost. I have seen photos of mustangs branded in the 'auction pen ' sites for rehoming. if those do not re home they ship.


Nothing is justifying the cost of managing the mustangs in any way whatsoever. They are all expense, no income.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I agree. They need to start rounding up younger horses and the older ones should be darted with pzp or rounded up and placed in large pasture holding facilities separated by gender. Or left in the wild (ideally). 

My mustang is 7 years old and while she is coming along nicely now, there was nothing easy about getting her trained. The fact is, most people would not know how to train a horse like this. There is too much risk of injury for the people who take these horses in and it isn't fair to a wild animal to expect them to revert to domestic life. Also, the risk to the horses- if they end up starving in a field or not cared for. 

They do ship to slaughter - sale authority horses especially. Farmers with plenty of land can buy these horses and turn them in a pasture for a year and ship to slaughter when their title comes in. 

The BLM inspectors said my horses were the fattest they had seen. It made me wonder how many they see that are half starved? Because I feed my horses well but they aren't that obese! The pregnant mare is looking a bit fat, but she is pregnant and she has always been an air fern. 

No one wants a wild horse that old. I'm not sure I would want another 7 year old, a yearling maybe. 

When I brought my mustang home, I had serious doubts and second thoughts. She came in very angry and aggressive. Fortunately she seems to have a good head on her, if a bit stubborn/scared. Trust takes a long time to build.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@stevenson they probably just ship them back to a main holding pen. Really, the government is not selling horses to slaughter.

I actually think it wouldn’t be terrible if they did. I’ve nothing against people eating horse meat, and it could help our country with its debt, rather than constantly being a drain on it. If they were able to send a percentage to slaughter each year, they would be able to have healthier and better appreciated horses on the mountain.

Plus, humans take better care of anything that makes them money.


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## BethR (Feb 17, 2021)

The thought of ANY horse being shipped to slaughter breaks my heart…the abject terror they undoubtedly experience! Sterilization is the answer IMHO.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@4horses when you filled out your application, do you remember the corral sizing questions? My first application I was turned down, because my horse corral was too large… to run a horse on pasture without feeding it, it has to be fairly large. I realize people lie, but that’s not something the government can control.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@BethR I don’t think of it that way, but we run cattle. Most of the calves will be purchased for slaughter. I don’t believe they know what it coming, and they are pushed down chutes before, so it’s simply a part of life to them. I’ve seen the horses pushed down chutes for vaccinations, and it’s very similar.

I think that death is a part of life, and what is more important than how something or someone dies is how they live. We all don’t want to die suffering, but hope for a quick death. I know while the cattle are with us, they have a good life.

Horses could be thought of in the same way to some aspect. The quality of their life is the most important thing. I would think their lives could be better.


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## BethR (Feb 17, 2021)

Knave said:


> @BethR I don’t think of it that way, but we run cattle. Most of the calves will be purchased for slaughter. I don’t believe they know what it coming, and they are pushed down chutes before, so it’s simply a part of life to them. I’ve seen the horses pushed down chutes for vaccinations, and it’s very similar.
> 
> I think that death is a part of life, and what is more important than how something or someone dies is how they live. We all don’t want to die suffering, but hope for a quick death. I know while the cattle are with us, they have a good life.
> 
> Horses could be thought of in the same way to some aspect. The quality of their life is the most important thing. I would think their lives could be better.


Yes Knave I see your point.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

Guys, it takes A LOT to be able to ship a wild horse to the can. What I told you in my above post is absolutely true. How do I know this? I have friends that haul canners. And I have been to and seen with my own eyes holding pens. One such place had over 20K head of them. Age doesn't matter. If they are not "adopted", they go to a holding pen. They used to get 3 times to go to events for "adoption", and if they were not "adopted", they were sent to the holding pens to live out their lives. 
Now figure out the cost of holding them! The last figure I saw on that was over $17,000 per horse per year. Add that up. BLM has a tiger by the tail and it's staring them right in the face. They can't send them to the plants, they can't afford to keep them in the pens. Most of their yearly budget goes to keeping those unadoptable horses. 
And yes, the ones in the holding pens are inspected quite often as well. 
Its not just the feed, you figure in vet visits. Each horse has to be put in a chute to be able to do that. And if it's a procedure such as teeth, they have to be sedated. It all adds up.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

I'd encourage you do your research before spreading misinformation.

I'd be willing to bet if all the wild horses in holding pens were released and were allowed to multiply unrestricted, there would be a huge overgrazing issue and many walking skeletons in no time. The BLM is doing what is necessary to manage these herds.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

ClearDonkey said:


> I'd encourage you do your research before spreading misinformation.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet if all the wild horses in holding pens were released and were allowed to multiply unrestricted, there would be a huge overgrazing issue and many walking skeletons in no time. The BLM is doing what is necessary to manage these herds.


There already IS a huge overgrazing issue, and walking skeletons. 
I spent a few years as a relief driver on a bull wagon. We went all over the western half of the United States. I have seen a good many wild horses. This time of year, it's sickening. There are just WAY too many of them. Their ranges are bare dirt. You'll see mares that you can see every bone in them nursing foals. The foals are skinny too. 

Every few years, they double in population. It's an ongoing problem. No one can agree what needs to be done.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

They gathered our range last year. That’s where I picked Queen up. I adore her by the way, and I ride Cashman too, who came from another area. I don’t find either of them any more difficult than any other horse, and they each have their own advantages.

Anyways, before they gathered the horse numbers were out of control. It wasn’t the small herds you imagine, but it was herds of hundreds. I am not over exaggerating. We are in a drought, and if they had not been gathered I’m sure many would not have made this coming winter.

They let the allotted number back out. I really like seeing horses when they are managed. Many have such a distaste for them unmanaged that they don’t feel the same, but for me, running into a small herd makes me super happy.

The day before yesterday we were on the side of a mountain looking for pairs, when cattle magically started pouring from the trees. Hot on their tail were three young mares. Husband got ready to spook them off, but I asked him to wait for a minute. He wasn’t happy, because he didn’t want to chase those cows off the mountain, but the mares saw us and took off, and then this stud eventually made his way out behind them. I knew him. I saw him when they left him behind, and it made me happy to see him. He was in poor shape last fall, and now he was doing much better.

That’s how the horses should be. Small herds that make you excited to see them. Not herds of hundreds eating too little.


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## wvfarrier (Sep 13, 2021)

There was a big plan about 10 or 12 years ago to use a feed through birth control to manage the populations but I dont think anything ever materialized. Im not opposed to rounding them up, in fact I am all for it. my problem is rounding up older horses who have virtually zero chance of being adopted out. Ive owned and trained a lot of them over the years, mostly when I lived in Purcell OK, just up from the BLM center there. my buddies and I used to go down on the weekends and help out. It was incredible to see all of them.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I don’t think any of the birth control has been working well. Really, if you think about it enough, maybe it is better for the older horses to be gathered. They have a harder time making a living on the mountain than something younger does. Plus, most horses gathered won’t be adopted. Not many horses are. I do think their online adoptions have garnered more attention though.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

I have been considering adopting one in a couple years, is the online or in person generally better? I have browsed online a few times and haven't made it out to an in person yet to see how it goes. Was kind of considering adopting a burro first, but im a little worried about making it fat.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

If you can go to a holding pen you will have a ton a variety. I think it is nice to pick from everything.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

*Fact: BLM mismanagement is rampant and unchecked*

In Summer 2016, the BLM outlined a plan to sterilize mares in the wild by basically slicing them open and performing hysterectomies in the wild. 

Upon court order, the BLM reversed their plan but immediately expressed a desire to kill the 45,000 horses in captivity “because they are not adoptable.”

Mismanagement of financial resources is what lead to the threat to kill these horses.

U.S. taxpayers have little desire to fund a corrupt governmental department that answers only to cattle ranchers and oil companies. The problem is that most taxpayers don’t know this is going on.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

What the government needs to do is pause roundups until they manage the horses in holding facilities. The government needs to divide those horses up and build large managed ranges- put up fencing and turn them back out in all female or male herds and make it a tourist attraction. Of course that costs money, but it might work out cheaper per horse in the long run, as you don't have to buy hay for all those animals year round. 

Because eventually you will reach a breaking point. We have 40,000 in holding and that is going to go up... What happens when you have 60,000 or 80,000 in holding? It simply isn't sustainable. 

If the BLM has 247 million acres, those horses should be turned out somewhere in large management areas. 

It doesn't make sense to keep them in feedlots, and you will never win public approval to slaughter them... I don't know any other alternatives. Adoption, maybe. But I almost think adoption is worse than slaughter. Some will be saved, some will go to slaughter anyways, and some will end up starving in a field.

Or geld all the males and turn them loose and put the mares up for adoption. I would think gelding would be a one time procedure and they could be turned loose without reproducing. And you wouldn't have to feed that horse for life in a holding pen.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

If gathers are paused horses and other wild herbivores will suffer. So will all wild things that depend on healthy range and water. Horses, because of their flat hooves, not cloven like other herbivores, can degrade water sources like no other species.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

Like I said before, BLM has a tiger by the tail, and it's staring them right in the face. 
And the last figure I heard was over $17K per horse per year to keep them. So the vast majority of their funding goes to just keeping those unadoptable horses alive. 
Mismanagement? Show me one government agency that doesn't have it, it's rampant everywhere. 

Keeping them as is, is not an option. Way too expensive.
Sending them to slaughter is not an option due to public opinion. Even tho is it the sensible thing to do.
Leaving them on the overgrazed ranges is not an option, they are starving as it is. Not to mention I believe it's every 5 years, their populations double.
So what do you do?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

4horses said:


> The government needs to divide those horses up and build large managed ranges- put up fencing and turn them back out in all female or male herds and make it a tourist attraction. Of course that costs money, but it might work out cheaper per horse in the long run, as you don't have to buy hay for all those animals year round.


Ask Madeline Pickens how that worked out for her....


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Interesting reading up on Madeline Pickens... Looks like she has tried multiple times to open as a tourist industry but has been shut down by the BLM at every step. 

I know she planned on gelding the male horses, but not sure what her plan was to address the pregnant mustangs she has taken in. As the foals would need to be sexed and all the males gelded. It seems reasonable, in theory, that someone could do what she is attempting to do. Just not sure the government is allowing her to move forward with the plan.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

I dont see such a plan even making enough money to break even on such an idea. Take a drive out anywhere in the west, you're going to be seeing wild horses. How would making them a tourist attraction work? 
Besides, even if it was financially workable, what about all the rest that are out on the ranges? 

Believe me, I am not trying to downplay your idea. Someone has to have an idea what to do with all of them. But it has to figure out on paper too. and a tourist attraction just doesn't.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Edited to add and clarify...

She bought private ground where I was from, it came with a BLM grazing lease. Because she didn't understand Animal Unit conversions she thought because the lease ran X number of cows she could graze it with the same amount of horses for as long as she felt. Tried to argue with the BLM- it doesn't work that way. BLM range con. comes out and tells you how many head for how many days and what date you can turn out.

She did open it as a tourist attraction and failed. I was taking care of cows close to her place and one of last times I went down there the gates were locked. I will say though, the average person probably wouldn't stay there at her retreat. I think she was charging $500/night? But knowing a couple people that worked for her there, there were people coming and staying.

She trashed the land on the private and lease ground. I believe the BLM ended up pulling the lease.
I day worked for another ranch that was close to hers. Gathering cows off the mountain looking down onto her place, it looked like an arena due to, too many horses. She basically recreated the issue of what too many horses looks like on the BLM- on her own place but in a much more concentrated level...except she had the luxury of feeding hay when the grass was gone.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

If the Gov't takes away grazing rights to cattle, beef prices will sky rocket. They are increasing now, but if the rancher has to feed lot these animals, politicians and the wealthy will be the only ones eating beef. I am lucky to find steaks on sale at $6.00 a lb , and I only feed myself and spouse. Ground beef is almost that amount. They need to give birth control injections to the mares , and I am sure this some drug that can be given to stallions to chemically sterilize them.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Just to add onto you Stevenson, the price of beef in the supermarket doesn't reflect what the producer(rancher) is making.
Again, the gov't at the request of the beef cattle associations on several occasions have refused or half heartedly inquired and investigated the monopoly of the packing houses. If you look at the sales the Beef market isn't great yet the prices in the store are ridiculous. It's not the producer raking in the funds.
But yes, the reduction of available ground puts a serious hurt on the producer which, in my opinion, can put the them out of business and the ones that can maintain will pass the cost on to the consumer.

I don't know anyone that wants to see all the horses gone, just maintained. The govt has made a big mess in the last 50 years? of horse management compared to how ranchers were maintaining them for decades more before. Goodness sake- the govt can't even handle delivering the mail yet we entrusted them with live animals..


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

There have been those that have suggested having a season on them where they could be harvested. You can bet how well that went over. 
And the problem remains. Too many horses. They have literally no natural predators. So they are increasing unchecked. 
They have eaten themselves right how of house and home. And they keep on producing. 

Another problem that no one has mentioned, and it has griped me from day one. By the BLM (government) putting them up for "adoption", that's putting the government in direct competition with the private sector. If that doesn't leave a sour taste, it should.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I don’t know how much of a competition it is @Zimalia22. Most people I know turn their nose up at them. That’s why there are almost no adoptions.

When my grandpa ran the horses on the mountain he managed them well. He would gather and start several, and cull quite a few too. They kept the saddle type horses in one area and the plows in another. The horses had a value then, and they knew them.

Once the government took over and they started over breeding and got so inbred, no one wanted them. I don’t see many obvious inbred horses anymore, but that is because there are so stinking many of them. They haven’t been as starved out lately on our side, and the gather was absolutely necessary and helped them out. I think there were so many they would have starved out this year.

There are starved horses. I think that is something the public misses seeing. A man I know put up a video where they kicked him off his range. The rancher takes care of the water, which people don’t understand. He videoed horses starved, dying at the last surviving water hole, just to show what kicking him off the range did. There was nothing left for them to eat or drink.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I don't think it can be said enough: No rancher wants the feral horses completely eliminated.

In addition to carrying about livestock, ranchers care about the land. It's their neighborhood. We all like seeing small, healthy bands of horses. Herds of healthy wildlife that are able to produce cute, healthy offspring. Seeing healthy riparian areas with wonderful diversity of birds, small mammals, and insects.


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## Zimalia22 (Jun 15, 2021)

All very true @Knave .
I have been all over the western half of the United States, and have seen MANY MANY MANY wild horses. The ones that survive the winter will fatten up and look not too bad in the spring. By summer, they are starting to thin up already. By late summer, you'll see very thin mares with nursing foals that are thin too. By Fall, many are skeletal. If it's an easy winter, many will make it on thru. If it's a hard winter, they won't. But, the death loss does not offset the upcoming foals. And the cycle continues.
I know people will vilify the cattleman. The cattleman pays for that pasture! Ask the ones that want the cattleman kicked off just how they would like to have wild horses invade their pastures and nothing you can do about it! "Oh heck No!" is the usual response. 
The cattleman is also responsible for the water supply, as you mentioned. Without the cattleman, many species that depend on that water would be screwed. 
No cattleman or rancher wants the horses totally removed. But they must be controlled and managed. Just no one has figured out how to do that so that it doesn't anger different groups. And it must be financially responsible too. Not just warm n fuzzie dreams.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Here in Florida the mustangs go quick. There's a lady near me who gets in 60 head at a time and puts them up for adoption - she sells most of them in just a couple weeks until the next shipment comes in. So apparently they aren't that undesirable. I will say my mustang was easier than my last rescue - she doesn't pace the fence, spin in her stall, or have a mental breakdown if my neighbors target shoot on the property line. She doesn't get into any trouble and I can turn her out without any worries and she's easy to catch. I've met domestic horses that are more difficult and have more bad habits then her. They do make good horses if you know how to train them. 

I don't know what happened with Madeline Pickens - the idea could probably work if you had a more competent individual implement it. It sounds like she over stocked her land and didn't manage it well. I assume it would work better with cross fencing and rotational grazing. If they are trained to come for hay, you should be able to rotate pastures easily enough. Sure, she may love horses but that doesn't mean she knows how to manage the land and keep the BLM and neighbors happy. It sounds like the government wanted to see her fail- denying her access to the roads needed to maintain the horses and she hit a snag on those long term environmental studies the government loves to put up as an obstacle to moving forward as a resort.

I still think it is a sound idea- there are millions of people that live in cities and don't know a thing about horses. I used to give riding lessons and most people considered it a tourist attraction and were happy for a pony ride and some pictures. That was probably 90 percent of the people who came for lessons. 

Beef prices are high due to a monopoly in the supply chain - not that the actual farmer sees any of that money.


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