# Western Bits HEEEELP!



## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

Okay for now I have a Tom Thumb Bit for my QH Gelding. But he doesn't seem to be liking this bit. I want a western bit that is easy to use, gentle in his mouth and won't pinch or hurt him in any way. Please give me ideas.


Thanks


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The Tom thumb is the worst...lol...doesn't even make a good paper weight...in my opinion.

If your horse is past the point of a snaffle, I really like the square hinged port with a short shank. You can ride with an indirect or direct rein with it. It has a little tongue relief and a fairly low port depending on which model you get.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

That sounds perfect!! Oh my goodness thank you!! Because he used to do this thing were he would back up, so i got my friend to come over and check on him and she said it must be the bit...its hurting him. lol are these easy to find in any horse tack store?


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

cowchick i looked at the photos on google, and they aren't heavy on their mouth or anything...it is gentle right?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Make sure its not just the bit and not other problems but if you want an example do a search for Bob Avila bits. In his collection you will see this bit. Myler makes a similar one and so does Cactus and Tom Balding. That will give you an idea where to start and differnt bits for different price ranges. Hopefully that fixes your problem...that's an easy fix.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kimmylikestojump (Dec 20, 2011)

I agree with CC but had to add that a bit is only as harsh as the hands holding the reins.


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

Aaaaah.... are there any other type of bits that are good?


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

I use a Grazing bit curb..its western and Lolly LOVES it more then the snaffle


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

does that mean they can eat grass with it?


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I agree with Cowchick. 

Most of my horses go from a snaffle, to a snaffle with short shanks, then into maybe a ported bit when they're about 5 or 6. 

I love this bit:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The only difference between the above bit from a Tom Thumb is that the curved shanks give the horse a bit of "precue" before the leverage comes into play. The middle looks a bit softer, too, so maybe that's enough of a difference to make a difference.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

is this the Bob Avila you meant?


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## coltrule (May 29, 2011)

whispering willow said:


> does that mean they can eat grass with it?


Well i guess so..but they can with any bit. Its just you reg curb bit.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

whispering willow said:


> cowchick i looked at the photos on google, and they aren't heavy on their mouth or anything...it is gentle right?


I would considerate that bit the next step in the progression of bits. It is gentle in my opinion. The bit is only as gentle as the hands using it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> is this the Bob Avila you meant?


It is, I have a bit made by Cactus that has a shorter shank on it. It is perfect for introducing colts to a shanked bit with a port.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The problem with a snaffle mouthpiece in a shanked bit is that it is two bitting theories fighting against each other. The snaffle mouthpiece works like scissors pinching the jaws when pulled straight back like you would in a shanked bit. With a ported shanked bit, it applied pressure to the roof of the mouth with the port(dependent on size and shape of port) and tightens the headstall over the poll...hence the importance of teaching a horse to give to pressure on the poll.

When you try to combine the two all you get is a really confused horse. I have a bit that has a snaffle mouth but with a large dog bone in the center, this seems to have a similar feel to a ported mouth because of the breaks in the mouth but not so much tongue relief. I still takes a certain horse that likes this bit and I have yet to find the common denominator, other than maybe being more tolerant. lol.

So I have skipped that bit and went to that short shanked square port with much better results.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I've never used one with a square port like that but I do have one of these and I really like it. Super short shanks so it's very mild with a bit of tongue relief.

AT Low Port Loose Cheek Low Port Western Bit 5in - Horse.com









I also have several bits similar to this one, just with slightly different shaped mouths. I've found some horses do prefer a solid mouth with no joints at all.
Weaver Stacy Westfall Double Rein Curb Bit - Horse.com


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

Oh Yeah and Cow Chick! My friend who came over said it also might be the shank that would be pinching him when i pull back, should i change from a chain one to a non chain one?


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

Ooops sorry i meant curb chain, lol


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

And can you send a picture of a square hinged port bit, so i know what i'm looking for, because on Google i'm not sure which one your talk about?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

whispering willow said:


> Oh Yeah and Cow Chick! My friend who came over said it also might be the shank that would be pinching him when i pull back, should i change from a chain one to a non chain one?


I almost never use a curb chain. I either use a flat leather curb strap or a rolled leather one. Start out with a flat leather.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

whispering willow said:


> does that mean they can eat grass with it?


A curb bit with curved shanks is easier for them to graze because the shanks aren't in the way as much. That's why they are called a grazing bit. 

From what I understand, a curved shank bit will release quicker than one with straight shanks. However, the curved one can cause more of an increase in pressure applied than a straight shank. Don't quote me on that because I'm not an expert on bits. I could be wrong. 

We use a combination bit on our horses, a curb bit with the snaffle mouth piece. They work well for our horses. Also, if and when you train them to neck rein, it really doesn't matter as much what bit is in their mouth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

Aaaaah that makes alot of sense usandpets  And as you can tell i'm and no expert aswell.


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

Is a curb Bit also a Gentle bit to use?


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

If you look for posts by bubba13, she has a link to a bit page, or you may be able to ask her for some advice.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

usandpets said:


> We use a combination bit on our horses, a curb bit with the snaffle mouth piece. They work well for our horses. Also, if and when you train them to neck rein, it really doesn't matter as much what bit is in their mouth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is using a Tom Thunb right now, which is the bit you desribed above. I imagine she is using direct rein with this bit which causes a lot of problems and sends mixed signals.

With a square hinge port she can use a direct rein if needed. This bit you can ride two handed or one. Has a low port so it is gentle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> She is using a Tom Thunb right now, which is the bit you desribed above. I imagine she is using direct rein with this bit which causes a lot of problems and sends mixed signals.
> 
> With a square hinge port she can use a direct rein if needed. This bit you can ride two handed or one. Has a low port so it is gentle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We use mostly direct rein too, especially when we have new riders or on our green horse. They seem to get the signals fine and no confusion. I usually ride one handed unless they are being a pain in the butt or going thru difficult terrain. Still our horses do fine but you are entitled to your opinion. Maybe our horses are special or just smart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Or tolerant...


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

usandpets said:


> We use mostly direct rein too, especially when we have new riders or on our green horse. They seem to get the signals fine and no confusion. I usually ride one handed unless they are being a pain in the butt or going thru difficult terrain. Still our horses do fine but you are entitled to your opinion. Maybe our horses are special or just smart.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I am entitled to my opinion, however the point I was trying to make was the OP was looking for an alternative bit because the one you described is the one she is using now and it isn't working for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

Today, I went to a store close by and ordered a Curb bit. And I am new to this what is a direct rein or an indirect rein?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I found a page that explains it....

Search,
Natural Horse supply...there is a page on that website that explains direct and indirect reins.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RunJumpRide (Sep 29, 2011)

I absolutely _despise_ the tom thumb... The EXACT thing happened to me...
Last year, I was fed up with Specs raising his head, even rearing, whenever I'd put more than a little pressure on the bit... He'd do this backing up thing where if I plow reined him, he'd back up... which was weird... So I went to this clinic, she said that switching bits would help all my problems, and she reccommended a low port, short shanked bit for him, so I searched long and hard, and came up with this bit:
Saddles Tack Horse Supplies - ChickSaddlery.com Francois Gauthier Antique Hinged Futurity Bit <>
it has worked WONDERS. It's the greatest bit, the shanks swivel so you can plow rein if you really need to, and the port is low and mild... I highly reccomend it!


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

Oh thats good for you!  But so but i ordered a curb bit...is that still a nice bit?


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Myler Bits USA


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

smrobs said:


> Or tolerant...


Yes they are very tolerant because of the beginner riders we put on them, not because of the bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Yes, I am entitled to my opinion, however the point I was trying to make was the OP was looking for an alternative bit because the one you described is the one she is using now and it isn't working for her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And the point I was making was that the bit doesn't give mixed and confusing signals like you said. That is if you can give consistent and clear cues, even with a Tom Thumb
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RATHER BE RIDING (Dec 7, 2010)

Unless you need a bit to show, I say ditch them all and go for a nice leather side pull. I personally do not like the rope ones. If you do not understand the mechanics of a bit and when and how they should be used, you can do more harm then good. I ride everything from green broke to dead broke in a side pull and love it. My horses are very responsive. I can neck rein or use direct rein.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

whispering willow said:


> Oh thats good for you!  But so but i ordered a curb bit...is that still a nice bit?


Well, it really depends on what kind of curb bit you are talking about. There are only about 10 million different options and every one of them is called a "curb bit". Can you maybe do an image search on the internet to find a picture that is similar to what you bought?


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

Sure


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but bits like that are generally not very good quality bits. They are made from crappy metals (aluminum, which many horses don't like the taste of) or are nickle plated, which will chip off with use and leave sharp edges that can cut up their mouth.




usandpets said:


> Yes they are very tolerant because of the beginner riders we put on them, not because of the bit.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, and I was not saying that the bit made them tolerant, I was saying that they were likely being tolerant to put up with it, especially when ridden by beginners or when direct reined, and not throw a fit.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I would highly suggest looking through the sticky posts on bits under the tack and equipment forum.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Oh, no, that's a poor bit--sells for $5 or less, badly balanced, nickel-plated and chips to make it rough....not at all what people were advising....


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

The Curb bit is terrible?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

usandpets said:


> And the point I was making was that the bit doesn't give mixed and confusing signals like you said. That is if you can give consistent and clear cues, even with a Tom Thumb
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



This guy, I don't know who he is but he explains exactly what I am talking about the Tom Thumb using two bitting theories combined together, making for confusion...
_ The Trouble with Tom Thumb_​ _ by Mark Rashid_​ *As a trainer and clinician I am always being asked a variety of horse-related questions. I think the single most common one asked, however, is "what kind of bit should I use on my horse?"* 
*In my situation, if I need to do any training on the horse whatsoever, I use a simple full-cheek snaffle bit. If the horse is well-trained and responsive, he stops, backs, and neck reins all on a light cue, then I use a curb or grazing bit. These are the only types of bits that I use on a regular basis, and are the only ones that I feel comfortable recommending.* 
*There is one bit that I never recommend, however, and in fact do my best to try to talk people out of using, particularly if they are experiencing problems with their horses - problems such as unresponsiveness while stopping, backing, or turning, or even more severe problems like head tossing, shaking their heads, or rearing. The bit that I am talking about, and which is often the source of such problems, is the Tom Thumb snaffle.*

* TRANSITION BIT* 
*The Tom Thumb snaffle was originally designed as a transition bit that was to be used in Western training. When a green horse was far enough along that perhaps a training snaffle was no longer necessary, but not far enough along to be moved into a curb bit, the Tom Thumb would be used. This would be great, if in fact, it made the transition simple and easy. Unfortunately, it doesn't. The truth of the matter is that, due to its design, it could possibly be considered one of the worst bits that somebody could use at a highly critical time in a young horse's training.* 
*The Tom Thumb is commonly termed a snaffle bit because its mouthpiece is broken, or hinged, which is a trademark common to the true snaffle bits. That is where the similarities end. On a true snaffle bit, the reins are attached to a relatively small, swiveling ring which could be considered a working part of the mouthpiece itself. When the rein is pulled as you would do when asking the horse to turn, the ring that the rein is attached to moves completely away from the horse's mouth. The mouthpiece itself slides in the same direction, which causes the ring on the opposite side of the horse's mouth to apply pressure on that side. Because the horse is taught to go away from pressure, it then makes sense that if you are pulling to the left, and the pressure from the bit is on the right side of his mouth, he will naturally turn his head to the left. This is the simple principle that is commonly referred to as direct reining, or "plow reining". It is also a principle that is almost impossible to perform properly with the Tom Thumb, due to its design. * 
*SHANKS PROHIBIT DIRECT REINING* 
*Unlike a true snaffle bit, the Tom Thumb has shanks similar to the ones found on a solid curb bit. It is to the bottom of these shanks that the reins are attached. The headstall is attached to the top of the shank, as is some type of curb strap which fits around the bottom of the horse's jaw, in the chin area. These shanks swivel and are attached to the bit's mouthpiece. * 
*It is that one flaw in the bit's design that renders it almost totally useless when it comes to any kind of training which involves direct reining. Again, using direct reining in a snaffle bit, the horse is taught to move away from pressure. To turn to the right, the pressure is on the left side of the horse's mouth. To turn to the left, the pressure is on the right. There should be no other pressure being applied by the bit that could cause the horse to become confused.* 
*Unfortunately, confusion is precisely what happens to a horse when the Tom Thumb is used. Because of its shanks, any attempt at direct reining results in pressure on several different areas around the horse's mouth. For instance, if you are asking the horse to turn to the left, you will be pulling on the left rein, with the idea that the pressure from the bit will be on the right side of the horse's mouth, thereby turning the horse left. However, because the rein is attached to the bottom of a swiveling shank, pulling on the rein results in the shank turning and tipping into the left side of the horse's face. When the shank tips, it also shifts the mouthpiece, which, in turn, puts pressure on the right side of the horse's mouth by pulling the right side of the bit into it. You now have pressure on both sides of the horse's mouth, as well as a shifting of the mouthpiece inside the mouth.* 
*If this wasn't bad enough, tipping the shank also results in the tightening up of the curb strap that is under the horse's chin. Suddenly, the simple act of asking the horse to turn to the left is no longer a simple act. The bit is applying so much pressure in so many places, that the horse has no clue as to what you were asking for in the first place.* 
*He then tries to tell you that he doesn't understand what you want by twisting his neck and shaking his head. Of course, we look at this as him being belligerent and not wanting to do what he was told. So, we simply apply more pressure to the rein which results in an even bigger fight on his part.* 
* Eventually, the horse does finally turn to the left - but only as a last resort. Before he does, he will first try several different options. Among these will be: 1) turning to the right, because the left shank tipping into the side of his face is forcing him that way; 2) lifting his head as high as he can get it; 3) dropping his head as low as he can get it; 4) backing up. Rearing is also an option which sometimes happens as well.*

* CONFUSION IN STOPPING  AND NECK REINING* 
*Asking the horse to stop or back up, using a Tom Thumb, often results in much the same behavior. The reason for this is, again, the bit's design. Pulling back on the reins causes the hinged mouthpiece of the bit to collapse and jut forward and then downward inside the horse's mouth, putting pressure on the horse's tongue. At the same time, the bottoms of the shanks (where the reins are attached) tip backward, causing the top of the shanks to tip forward. This, in turn, causes the curb strap to tighten under the horse's chin. Again, pressure is being applied in several different areas and this results in total confusion for the horse.* 
*Neck reining with the Tom Thumb can also result in confusion on the horse's part. This is because the idea behind neck reining is to be able to turn the horse by applying light pressure on his neck from the rein. To turn to the right, the rein is laid on the left side of the horse's neck. To turn to the left, the rein is on the right side of his neck. When done properly, there should be no movement or involvement whatsoever on the part of the bit. The solid curb bit, because of its design, lends itself very well to the act of neck reining. When laying the rein on the horse's neck to turn him, even if slightly heavy pressure is being applied, the curb bit usually will not move in the horse's mouth. This helps to eliminate the possibility of mixed signals which could confuse the horse. * 
*However, because the Tom Thumb has so many moving parts, even the lightest pressure during neck reining with it often results in the shifting of the bit. Again, the shanks tip and turn causing the curb strap to tighten, the mouthpiece to collapse and the horse to become confused. The horse usually responds by raising his head and tipping it to the outside, or in the opposite direction that you want him to turn. Our response is usually to grab the reins with both hands and direct rein the horse back in the direction we want him to go. Of course this begins the series of problems that I mentioned earlier, head shaking, head tossing, and almost total unresponsiveness to anything we ask the horse to do.* 
*POSSIBLE CAUSES OF PROBLEM BEHAVIOR* 
*In just about every case, when I've been asked to help someone overcome an unresponsiveness problem in their horse, the problem has usually stemmed from the use of a Tom Thumb snaffle, or some other type of long-shanked snaffle bit. However, that is not always the only cause of the problem. Very often the use of one of these bits is coupled with the person's inexperience in working with problem horses in general, and is made worse by their inability to recognize that a problem even exists. Many times they dismiss the head tossing, and lack of responsiveness that accompanies the use of one of these bits as the horse being grumpy or belligerent. Therefore, any time the horse begins to "act up" they simply get a little move heavy-handed with him, forcing him to do what is wanted, instead of looking for what has caused the problem to begin with. Usually, this only serves to intensify the problem.*

*It is not meant to imply that the use of one of these bits is the only cause of unresponsive behavior in horses, or that the Tom Thumb is the only type of bit that will cause it. After all, any kind of bit in the hands of an unknowing or uncaring rider can easily be transformed into a weapon. What is true is that this particular style of bit has been the cause of more problem behavior than any other I have seen and is definitely not one I would recommend using - especially for the inexperienced horse person.* 
*If you are currently using a Tom Thumb snaffle or any other type of similar bit and you are happy with the way your horse is responding, then by all means, don't switch it. If however, you are experiencing some or all of the problems I have mentioned and are currently using - or are thinking about trying - a Tom Thumb, then you may want to reconsider its use.* 
*As with any type of problem behavior concerning horses, it is very important to know and understand what your personal limitations are in dealing with them. Someone with limited training experience should always seek help from an experienced professional. Well-meaning but unknowing friends trying to give free advice often only serve to compound the problem. It is also important to remember that, when it comes to bits, the simpler it is for the rider to use, the simpler it is for the horse to understand. A clear cue on our part makes for a clear response on the horse's part.* 
*Mark Rashid*


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

whispering willow said:


> The Curb bit is terrible?


The one that you pictured as what you ordered...yes. If you have a very limited budget for buying a bit, you might look at these. They aren't great, but for the price, they are functional, and they are a heck of a lot better than the one that you posted.

NP Sweet Iron Loose Cheek Western Curb Bit 5in - Horse.com


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> This guy, I don't know who he is but he explains exactly what I am talking about the Tom Thumb using two bitting theories combined together, making for confusion...
> 
> _The Trouble with Tom Thumb_​
> 
> ...


From what I get from that is you should use a snaffle for direct or plow reining and a curb for indirect or neck reining. You shouldn't use a combination or transistion bit.



COWCHICK77 said:


> The Tom thumb is the worst...lol...doesn't even make a good paper weight...in my opinion.
> 
> If your horse is past the point of a snaffle, I really like the square *hinged* port with a short shank. You can ride with an indirect or direct rein with it. It has a little tongue relief and a fairly low port depending on which model you get.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or is it just the Tom Thumb you shouldn't use but any other hinged bit is OK? 

Again, I could have swore that he said NOT to direct rein with a curb bit. But you say it's ok?



COWCHICK77 said:


> The problem with a snaffle mouthpiece in a shanked bit is that it is two bitting theories fighting against each other. The snaffle mouthpiece works like scissors pinching the jaws when pulled straight back like you would in a shanked bit. With a ported shanked bit, it applied pressure to the roof of the mouth with the port(dependent on size and shape of port) and tightens the headstall over the poll...hence the importance of teaching a horse to give to pressure on the poll.
> 
> When you try to combine the two all you get is a really confused horse. I have a bit that has a snaffle mouth but with a large dog bone in the center, this seems to have a similar feel to a ported mouth because of the breaks in the mouth but not so much tongue relief. I still takes a certain horse that likes this bit and I have yet to find the common denominator, other than maybe being more tolerant. lol.
> 
> So I have skipped that bit and went to that short shanked square port with much better results.


The port shouldn't come in contact with the roof of the mouth. It is just a relief for the tongue. When you pull back on a curb bit, the mouthpiece puts downward pressure on the bars and the strap or chain puts upward pressure on the jaw. Using a curb with a snaffle type mouthpiece does the same but still has a pressure from the side on the bars and puts pressure on the tongue.



COWCHICK77 said:


> With a square hinge port she can use a direct rein if needed. This bit you can ride two handed or one. Has a low port so it is gentle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not according to Mark Rashid as you posted


COWCHICK77 said:


> Yes, I am entitled to my opinion, however the point I was trying to make was the OP was looking for an alternative bit because the one you described is the one she is using now and it isn't working for her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So one that is ported where it's hinged makes it ok? Now I'm confused at what you say is ok but then the same is not. Hmmm...


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

It all just comes down to flat, plain common sense.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

From what I get from that is you should use a snaffle for direct or plow reining and a curb for indirect or neck reining. You shouldn't use a combination or transistion bit.

*You can use a transition bit, but the Tom Thumb is a badly designed one.

*Or is it just the Tom Thumb you shouldn't use but any other hinged bit is OK? 
*It is the snaffle type mouthpeice in a shanked bit that is the problem. The bit I am talking about looks like this.
AVB112- Professional's Choice Bob Avila Swivel Mouthpiece Bit
This bits mouthpiece works a lot different than a snaffle style.

*
Again, I could have swore that he said NOT to direct rein with a curb bit. But you say it's ok?

*I believe he is referring to a fixed cheek curb bit. With the bit I have pictured above(I have the one made by Kerry Kelley in a shorter shank) Because of the way the mouthpiece works you are able to use one rein at a time in a direct rein. If you use a direct rein with this bit the purchase doesn't dig into his face causing an opposing signal*.

The port shouldn't come in contact with the roof of the mouth. It is just a relief for the tongue. When you pull back on a curb bit, the mouthpiece puts downward pressure on the bars and the strap or chain puts upward pressure on the jaw. Using a curb with a snaffle type mouthpiece does the same but still has a pressure from the side on the bars and puts pressure on the tongue.

*That is incorrect, the port does come in contact with the roof of the mouth but how much depends on the height of the port. If that was the case how does a half breed with no tongue relief or a spade bit work?
Those are two forms of a port.
When you pull back on a snaffle it collapses the mouthpiece and causes it to scissor. Try putting a snaffle in the crook of your arm, bend your fore arm over the top of it like if you are touching your shoulder. then pull back on the snaffle and see what the mouthpiece does. 
The curb strap does create pressure as well you are right, but it also tightens the headstall over the poll. How could it not?

*Not according to Mark Rashid as you posted

*You can ride two handed with a square hinged port, it is designed so you can ride two handed or one handed with it. Look at where it hinges if you lift on the left rein, it is going to move only the left side of the bit*.* The Tom Thumb has the opposite effect. The square port and the snaffle mouthpieces work completely different from each other even though they are both hinged.*


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> *You can use a transition bit, but the Tom Thumb is a badly designed one.
> *


*

So any snaffle type is bad even the Argentine. Just the Tom Thumb is the one that gets bashed. 

I do think a double jointed type is better than the single joint. I also get your point of the bit you suggested.
Posted via Mobile Device*


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

In my opinion, yes the Argentine would be the same as the Tom Thumb, any bit with a snaffle mouthpiece with shanks. But like you said, one with a dog bone or others that are double jointed, would be better if you don't want to commit to a ported bit yet.

The idea seems right to combine the snaffle mouthpiece with shanks for a transition bit, I agree, but unfortunately it just doesn't work.... there are way better options.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

We've been through this before, so I'll just post a link to the thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tack-equipment/why-do-so-many-people-object-80794/

I think it's an interesting discussion, and worth a read all the way through.


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

would it be best to ride in a rope halter? because i have one of thoughs for him.


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## RATHER BE RIDING (Dec 7, 2010)

Lots of people ride in a rope halter and like them. I personally do not like the rope halters, for riding, as I think they slide around too much. That is why I recommend a leather side pull. However, I think your horse will be much happier bitless, even if you are riding in a rope halter. I am not anti bit, I just prefer going bitless and I know my horse appreciates it too.


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## whispering willow (Nov 9, 2011)

Okay sounds good


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

There is no reason why your horse would be more comfortable in a rope halter if you took the time to find a decent quality bit to use on him.


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## Kansas Spice Girl (Dec 6, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> In my opinion, yes the Argentine would be the same as the Tom Thumb, any bit with a snaffle mouthpiece with shanks. But like you said, one with a dog bone or others that are double jointed, would be better if you don't want to commit to a ported bit yet.
> 
> The idea seems right to combine the snaffle mouthpiece with shanks for a transition bit, I agree, but unfortunately it just doesn't work.... there are way better options.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I transitioned my mare from a Egg but to an Argentine when she was seven. She is now 14, and still in the Argentine, with no problems. She has always been weird with her mouth even in the D ring, and the Argentine is the only bit she doesn't flip over in... why would this be? This is out of curiousity because i am by far not an expert on bits. Does it come down to me as the rider in my case? I don't really use my rein very much she is pretty much all leg (i wouldn't even really need a bridle to ride her) I trained her this way because of her weirdness with her mouth. I wanted to add her weirdness is not cause by the Argentine... she was weird in her egg but too. Her mouth is just sensitive I think...we have had our share of flipping over even with just pressure from halter. At first we thought it may be linked to something wrong with her teeth but it turned out just to be one of her quirks!
Of course I want her comfort before anything else, I just assumed the Argentine was mild due to her reaction... well lack of reaction in her case, to it! Would you recommend i change it?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

usandpets said:


> So any snaffle type is bad even the Argentine. Just the Tom Thumb is the one that gets bashed.


Not necessarily. 

A Tom Thumb is a poorly designed bit from the start. Terrible purchase to shank ratio. No matter how soft your hands or how advanced in training the horse is, that bit is never going to give them release.























The main problem with the TT is that its design causes pressure in multiple places in the bit which is what leads to confusion for the horse. 

For example, if you ask a horse to stop with a TT, the hinged mouthpiece will collapse (move forward and downward) and puts pressure on the tongue. At the same time, the bottom of the shanks are going backward (because you are lifting your reins to stop) causing the top of the shanks to go forward, thus tightening the curb strap under the chin. You've now got pressure cues in two places .... confusing.

Any tension in general on the shanks of that bit will cause the mouthpiece to fold up, poke the top of the mouth, and "nutcracker" on their lower jaw.

Just look at it hanging on a horse and see how the shanks are so straight. This fact alone causes the shanks to be forward in the horse's mouth so that simply the weight of loose reins brings contact and some pressure onto the horse's jaw and/or poll. It's very hard to give a prompt "release and reward" for a correct response from your horse at the right moment when your tack is still putting some pressure on it's own. Since the shanks are forward in their mouth, the only time a horse gets full relief from the pressure is when their nose is vertical, which isn't good either. Also, since the shanks are straight, the horse gets zero warning when you go to cue as the bit engages immediately. 

Direct reining for sure is out of the question with a Tom Thumb. When you pull on one side, the entire bit twists rather painfully in the horse’s mouth. If we are pulling to the left, the top of the left shank tips into the left side of the horse’s face. This also shifts the mouthpiece to put pressure on the right side of the horse’s mouth, because the right side of the bit is pulled into it. Now there is pressure from both sides of the horse’s mouth which is not what the horse is supposed to learn from a direct rein, like in an O-ring or D-ring snaffle bit. On top of all that, tipping the shanks engage the curb strap, causing a third point of pressure and confusion. 

Now, there are versions of the TT on the market where the shanks are curved substantially. This would not be my first choice, but it is an "okay" bit. The curve on the shank helps to alleviate some of the design flaws I described above. 

I can't say that an Argentine bit is my first choice either, but I would certainly pick it over the TT bit (or its curved counterpart) any day.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Where'd you get those pictures, beau?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

smrobs said:


> I've never used one with a square port like that but I do have one of these and I really like it. Super short shanks so it's very mild with a bit of tongue relief.
> 
> AT Low Port Loose Cheek Low Port Western Bit 5in - Horse.com
> 
> ...



Love love love that bit in the pic! I recommend those highly. I also do not like a single jointed mouthpiece on a shanked bit. I'm a port person all the way as they offer tongue relief/release.


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## xXHorseKissesXx (Jan 12, 2012)

Thom thumbs are a very harsh bit, they say they're a 'shanked snaffle' because of the broken mouth piece, but believe me they aren't, they pinch. 

I'd suggest a loose ring snaffle. Very soft, and works on the lips of the horse's mouth. Then you can try moving up to something with a little more leverage. 

If your horse is past the "snaffle" stage, try using a grazing shank. It has a broken mouth piece, long shanks, and has a mild pressure on the horse's mouth. Very nice bit, and with soft hands, horse responds well.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Kansas Spice Girl said:


> I transitioned my mare from a Egg but to an Argentine when she was seven. She is now 14, and still in the Argentine, with no problems. She has always been weird with her mouth even in the D ring, and the Argentine is the only bit she doesn't flip over in... why would this be? This is out of curiousity because i am by far not an expert on bits. Does it come down to me as the rider in my case? I don't really use my rein very much she is pretty much all leg (i wouldn't even really need a bridle to ride her) I trained her this way because of her weirdness with her mouth. I wanted to add her weirdness is not cause by the Argentine... she was weird in her egg but too. Her mouth is just sensitive I think...we have had our share of flipping over even with just pressure from halter. At first we thought it may be linked to something wrong with her teeth but it turned out just to be one of her quirks!
> Of course I want her comfort before anything else, I just assumed the Argentine was mild due to her reaction... well lack of reaction in her case, to it! Would you recommend i change it?


Not one bit, is going to be the "miracle bit" for all horses, depending on the horse and the hands that are using it really depends on what is going to work. You just said your self that you use your legs more than the bit, do you think you or your horse would like that bit just the same if you had to really use it and get in his face a little? Its hard to say...I am not really bad mouthing an Argentine, it definitley is a step up from the TT, in my opinion. But I am not a fan of it because it has the same concept of a broken mouthpiece with shanks. I will be the first one to admit, that I had a bit that was a broken mouthpiece and curved shanks but it had a dog bone in the middle. With a dog done or a double joint it is easier to work one side independently. If I use a bit like that and use direct rein I am not plow reining, I will lift the rein very close to the neck. But even that wasn't very efficient and I traded it off. Like I said before, the low square hinge port with short shanks has been my favorite for a transition. It seems to suit my horse and my riding style.

To answer your question, I agree with Bubba, don't fix what is broke.


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## nucks93 (Dec 7, 2011)

I personally just like a basic O ring snaffle with the myler style midpiece. My horse is a TB who is used to bracing against the bit (I think it was the single joint midpiece action that really bothered him) and after I switched bits, hes a lot more relaxed and willing.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> Where'd you get those pictures, beau?


 
Gosh, it's been a long while but I _think_ it was from another horse forum a couple years back. Can't quite remember. I like them a lot because I am a very visual learner. Makes more sense to me if I can put things into a picture.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I ask, simply because I made them, and posted them here last year. :wink:

No worries, just thought it was funny. Carry on!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Bubba, if you Google "Tom Thumb bit" and search images, those pics come up...your famous..almost! LOL


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> I ask, simply because I made them, and posted them here last year. :wink:
> 
> No worries, just thought it was funny. Carry on!


I apologize! Totally my bad. I seriously thought I had them laying around on my computer for years already. Geesh 

Well they helped me so much that I saved them.  

I will definately source your work from now on.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

^ Totally not necessary, since I stole the bit stock images, anyway. I just don't want nobody else taking _credit_ for them.


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## Ink (Sep 25, 2009)

smrobs said:


> I've never used one with a square port like that but I do have one of these and I really like it. Super short shanks so it's very mild with a bit of tongue relief.
> 
> AT Low Port Loose Cheek Low Port Western Bit 5in - Horse.com
> 
> ...


I just ordered this bit for my mare! I liked that it has a similar mouthpiece to the myler D ring I've been working her in. Hopefully it will make for an easy transition for her. 

I've always heard mixed reviews for the tomb thumb bit. It's nice to hear more in depth about what's wrong with them. Very interesting discussion guys.


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