# Lets talk about foals :) Appaloosa foal



## FreeDestiny

No help here, but what a big face for such a little guy. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jake and Dai

Holy crazy long legs batman! Especially in that 3rd picture!


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## Turndial

Flair is stunning!

for such a little one, health and curiosity (to an extent) would be the ideals imo..


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## Golden Horse

I think the safest thing to say about little ones is awww cute, and pretty color.

I have enough trouble judging big guys, but foals are really hard, being that they are all legs and bendy soft joints. This little guy currently looks all head and legs, at the expense of his neck, but who knows what he will mature to. I'm still waiting for Angel to produce a decent neck, I'm sure she will at some time.

What do I look for, well I've never had to select a baby at that age, and having raised a few foals at home here I hope I never have to, because they go through so many stages.


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## waresbear

My eyes got googly from those spots:shock:. Wow, he is so cool!


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## bubba13

Conformationally....I just hope he grows into his head and sprouts a neck. :shock:
Am I seeing a hernia or is that an optical illusion with the spots?


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## Roperchick

im pretty sure its the spots bubba. im goin crosseyed trying to focus on him!
what a looker! charlie was the same way though... biiiiiig head and no neck as a baby but now hes 16.3 and he still has a ginormous head! what a cutie though. nice long legs.

he purely looks spring loaded in that third pic...it looks like hes just gonna shoot up once that long a**leg straightens out haha!


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## myhorsesonador

at such a young age, some thing I would look for is him being moved to my back yard.


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## Walkamile

Trying hard to focus! Man those legs are looong! Such a cutie! :wink:


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## CLaPorte432

Holy crap! Look at the legs! How tall are mom and dad? Good lord!

He is absolutely amazing! Love the color!

Are you sure he isn't a Knabbstrupper? LoL


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## Rascaholic

Oh no, I am so sorry! You can't keep him! He has to come live with me and Rascal LOL. Awesome loud colored baby with some legs that won't quit.


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## Cacowgirl

I think he needs a change of geography-to my new place in AZ-haha. He is just fabulous as he is & I love the name. Thanks for sharing.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

CLaPorte432 said:


> Holy crap! Look at the legs! How tall are mom and dad? Good lord!
> 
> He is absolutely amazing! Love the color!
> 
> Are you sure he isn't a Knabbstrupper? LoL


 
dad is 16.1 hands and dam is 14.2... He is Solar Flair Eclat bred on 3 of his four lines and solar flair was a 17 hand appy (extreme outlier) His legs were as long as his dams at birth so We are guessing he will be more like dad. Neither parents have squatty necks and as he has been weaned it doesnt look short anymore. No hernia. Just the spot illusion


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## Koolio

He's lovely!! I bet he'll be stunning when he matures!


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## Golden Horse

Can I turn the question back on you? I see on your web site that you are already saying that he will be standing to limited mares in 2014, how do you know at this age that he will make the grade as a stallion?

He obviously hasn't got any show record of his own yet, it is very hard to judge babies so other than his pedigree and his color there is nothing else to judge, and I'm sure that nobody breeds just on those two criteria.

I'd appreciate any help as how to spot so much potential in one so young


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## Faceman

I'm not seeing a lot of Solar Flair Eclat in him and the foal picture of SFE doesn't show much resemblance to this foal either. This foal looks to be blocky whereas SFE was much more streamlined.

Pedigree?


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

Golden Horse said:


> Can I turn the question back on you? I see on your web site that you are already saying that he will be standing to limited mares in 2014, how do you know at this age that he will make the grade as a stallion?
> 
> He obviously hasn't got any show record of his own yet, it is very hard to judge babies so other than his pedigree and his color there is nothing else to judge, and I'm sure that nobody breeds just on those two criteria.
> 
> I'd appreciate any help as how to spot so much potential in one so young


In my personal experience (in my horses) what you see the first week they are born is 99% of the time what you will see as an adult in angles. Shoulder angles and legs. Than they go to a wonky stage where i dont like to really assess them much again until they hit two.. than again at three. Even though really im dying because as they grow and mature they will be butt high.. and legs will be going all over the place  

Temperment is a HUGE thing for me. All of my horses have sound solid temperments. Even my stallion can be handled by children. Why? because i would never keep an animal a stallion if he couldnt no matter how beautiful he was. Temperment IS inherited. 

I dont know how many people here are into appys. Im sure more are into other breeds but if anyone knows what is and has been going on in ApHC for sometime now you would know that nearly every "Appaloosa" you see .. you'd be hard pressed to find any ACTUAL appaloosas in their pedigree... Example: This horse has several titleholders in the ApHC... but look at his pedigree? see the horses that say "appaloosa" look at what their parents are.. and so on and so on.
Chocolatey Appaloosa

ApHC has effectively been allowing breeding the appaloosa out of the appaloosa. They are a breed. not a color pattern. There is a VERY small percentage of appaloosas that have more than 3 generations of solid appyx appy breeding. and there are only a few farms right now producing appys with 5 generation and 6 generation appys. I believe it is stated scientifically it takes 9 or 10 generations to constitude a purebred... so in that thought. there are NO purebred appaloosas in the world today. that have 9 generations of solid appyxappy breeding. 

This is flairs pedigree. for anyone who was interested. He is a 100% FPD appaloosa as per ApHC guidelines which requires he has 4 generations with nothing but appaloosas. 

Pja Ima Solar Flair Appaloosa

At this point he has the temperment, the conformation and most importantly the pedigree to be a breeding stallion. 

Show records? have any of you been to breed shows? it is a display of who has the most money to hire the best trainer to show their horse so they can secure a win. If flashing money to sway a judges placement on a horse regardless of type or ability is what qualifies a horse to be a great representative of his breed that is not what Im interested in. 

My horses need to be versitile, have good conformation, and good temperments. the majority of horse owners want a horse that can be a great family addition and who is willing to work and is sane and solid in temperment. 

If they are looking for horses with show records to qualify that they have a good animal than they wont be looking at my farm  

Photo of solar flair at a young age. to adult for those interested.:


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## bubba13

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> I dont know how many people here are into appys. Im sure more are into other breeds but if anyone knows what is and has been going on in ApHC for sometime now you would know that nearly every "Appaloosa" you see .. you'd be hard pressed to find any ACTUAL appaloosas in their pedigree... Example: This horse has several titleholders in the ApHC... but look at his pedigree? see the horses that say "appaloosa" look at what their parents are.. and so on and so on.
> Chocolatey Appaloosa
> 
> ApHC has effectively been allowing breeding the appaloosa out of the appaloosa. They are a breed. not a color pattern. There is a VERY small percentage of appaloosas that have more than 3 generations of solid appyx appy breeding. and there are only a few farms right now producing appys with 5 generation and 6 generation appys. I believe it is stated scientifically it takes 9 or 10 generations to constitude a purebred... so in that thought. there are NO purebred appaloosas in the world today. that have 9 generations of solid appyxappy breeding.


We've been through this before, but you'd be hard-pressed to find an actual _Appaloosa_, anywhere. Why? Because the breed was recreated from colored stock, only. Initially, in the early days of the ApHC and the Appaloosa "breed" as a whole, that was the only requirement. There was some consideration given to type, but not bloodline, and there is wide variance when looking at "foundation" Appaloosas. No consistency at all. They certainly aren't the same as the horses the Nez Perce were breeding, nor are they the same as the spotted Spanish stock. To say that outcrossing to AQHA ruined the breed is to ignore the fact that there was never a breed to begin with, and that outcrossing was allowed from the very beginning. The first registered ApHC horses weren't purebred Appaloosa. There is no such thing as a purebred Appaloosa....now, or then.

That said, I do have a lot of experience with highly foundation-bred ApHC Apps and foundation/Arab crosses. Nice horses, but not exactly the epitome of versatility that's supposed to characterize the breed. And again, nothing resembling the supposed origins of the American Appaloosa. Despite extremely limited QH blood, they resembled colored QH's more than anything else.




> Show records? have any of you been to breed shows? it is a display of who has the most money to hire the best trainer to show their horse so they can secure a win. If flashing money to sway a judges placement on a horse regardless of type or ability is what qualifies a horse to be a great representative of his breed that is not what Im interested in.


It depends on the event. If I am interested in showing my horse, I definitely want its ancestors to have had winning show records. Bloodlines absolutely do matter when breeding for certain events. If I want a sound, sane horse, placings in speed events (no politics there) and trail type classes mean a whole lot. Or if I want a really good trail horse I can ride all day, I'd love to see endurance records (again, that has nothing to do with money or prestige). If I want a horse to work cattle, he **** sure better have a cowy background, and that carries a lot more merit if he has points in team penning/sorting, cutting, working cowhorse, etc. If a horse has not competed against other horses, it's difficult to objectively evaluate how it _would_ perform against its peers.



>


See, to me this horse has pretty blech conformation. He's built to overreach, with a weaker back, and short/thick/upright/bull/ewe neck. With his lean composition, I could see him having good endurance, but he sure doesn't look like any kind of athlete (or fancy mover). What has he done, or what is he famous for?


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

bubba13 said:


> We've been through this before, but you'd be hard-pressed to find an actual _Appaloosa_, anywhere. Why? Because the breed was recreated from colored stock, only. Initially, in the early days of the ApHC and the Appaloosa "breed" as a whole, that was the only requirement. There was some consideration given to type, but not bloodline, and there is wide variance when looking at "foundation" Appaloosas. No consistency at all. They certainly aren't the same as the horses the Nez Perce were breeding, nor are they the same as the spotted Spanish stock. To say that outcrossing to AQHA ruined the breed is to ignore the fact that there was never a breed to begin with, and that outcrossing was allowed from the very beginning. The first registered ApHC horses weren't purebred Appaloosa. There is no such thing as a purebred Appaloosa....now, or then.


I agree. However, the ApHC was started to scrouge whatever they could to bring back the breed. the studbooks should of been closed after they had a diverse enough number of horses to breed in a closed studbook. It was never closed however. So how can they expect to preserve a breed when they allow you to bring in any QH, Arabian, or TB? You can never expect to have a breed if you keep allowing it. I was very sad watching the national show this year to see 90% of the horses being plain... brown. 



bubba13 said:


> That said, I do have a lot of experience with highly foundation-bred ApHC Apps and foundation/Arab crosses. Nice horses, but not exactly the epitome of versatility that's supposed to characterize the breed. And again, nothing resembling the supposed origins of the American Appaloosa. Despite extremely limited QH blood, they resembled colored QH's more than anything else.


A lot of stock horses resemble QHs. Its a type that was used on ranches. QH was used extensively along with TB and Arabian.. to bring back the breed. WHen you think of versatility. You think of a horse that can excel in several areas. English, western, trail, endurance etc. 





bubba13 said:


> It depends on the event. If I am interested in showing my horse, I definitely want its ancestors to have had winning show records. Bloodlines absolutely do matter when breeding for certain events. If I want a sound, sane horse, placings in speed events (no politics there) and trail type classes mean a whole lot. Or if I want a really good trail horse I can ride all day, I'd love to see endurance records (again, that has nothing to do with money or prestige). If I want a horse to work cattle, he **** sure better have a cowy background, and that carries a lot more merit if he has points in team penning/sorting, cutting, working cowhorse, etc. If a horse has not competed against other horses, it's difficult to objectively evaluate how it _would_ perform against its peers.


I totally agree with you there. My personal horses are suited for all round horses. Suitable for Trail, endurance, and the all around 4H, open horse. Several of my horses were shown by me growing up and in adulthood and were always in ribbons in not just one type (english vs western) of competition. I do not compete at the breed level and show for personal enjoyment. Several of my mares have competed in competitive trail rides though because of their age are now not suited for doing 17+ mile rides. Ive got a couple of youngsters that have a few more years before I can start competing again in endurance type events. To raise a horse from birth and train it in endurance takes 5+ years. 



bubba13 said:


> See, to me this horse has pretty blech conformation. He's built to overreach, with a weaker back, and short/thick/upright/bull/ewe neck. With his lean composition, I could see him having good endurance, but he sure doesn't look like any kind of athlete (or fancy mover). What has he done, or what is he famous for?


This horse was born in 1982. He is mainly famous for his size at 17 hands. and his loud leopard color.  Frank Scripter bred leopards for many years thinking that with enough generations of lpxlp breedings that you would get higher % of leopard babies. 

We now know that a lpxlp breeding will consistantly produce 25% fewspot, 50% leopards, and 25% solid NC horses.


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## Faceman

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> I dont know how many people here are into appys. Im sure more are into other breeds but if anyone knows what is and has been going on in ApHC for sometime now you would know that nearly every "Appaloosa" you see .. you'd be hard pressed to find any ACTUAL appaloosas in their pedigree... Example: This horse has several titleholders in the ApHC... but look at his pedigree? see the horses that say "appaloosa" look at what their parents are.. and so on and so on.
> Chocolatey Appaloosa


Interesting conversation. I agree with you on some things, disagree on others, and both agree and disagree with Bubba on certain issues.

There is probably more Appy expertise on this board than you might realize, so no need to think there aren't knowledgeable Appy people here. I am 64 years old and was raised with Appys, bred Appys for over 20 years myself, and my granfather, who was a Native American, raised Appys for about 30 years beginning back around 1925 - long before ApHC was ever thought of. And I went through the Appy wars with ApHC in the early 80's when ApHC made the decision to sell out the breed in favor of generating revenues and achieving major registry status by remaining a color registry instead of transitioning to become an actual breed registry. ApHC tries to promote itself as a breed registry, which is blatantly stupid...it also tries to lead people to believe it "originated" the Appy, which is even more stupid. 

Here is where I sort of straddle the middle between you and Bubba. I am always pleased to see Appy to Appy breeding, however let's call a spade a spade - much of the foundation Appy breeding has been for color without always incorporating the best of choices in breeding stock for conformation and ability. As Bubba says, this has altered the original concept and purpose of the Appy, which was versatility - a combination of endurance and performance that no other breed has. The poor choice of breeding stock by many foundation breeders has destroyed much of that versatility (I am not necessarily referring to you directly here), so that many modern day "foundation" Appys, while truly Appys, are mere shadows of what the breed once was. 

Of course that is still better than what ApHC has done. Many people don't realize that Appys pre-date Quarterhorses by many many years. Native Americans were raising Appys before Quarterhorses even existed and certainlygenerations before the first Thoroughbred set foot on American soil. Yet ApHC permits - and encourages - outcrossing with both Quarterhorses and Thoroughbreds. Crossing with Arabs doesn't bother me as much, because Arabs and Appys have very similar roots. While it is true Thoroughbreds arose from desert roots as did Appys, in the case of Thoroughbreds, they have long since been developed to have little to no resemblence to those roots, therefore outcrossing to modern day Thoroughbreds is not crossing similar to similar, but rather crossing two disctinctly different breeds resulting in what actually is nothing more than a grade. That is to take nothing away fromt the horses themselves...an Appy/TB cross can be a great horse, as can an Appy/QH cross. But they are not Appys.

You refer to Frank Scripter lines, but he was not noted for breeding great horses - he was noted for breeding Leopards. While that is great for Leopard folks, it is not necessarily great for the breed, and quite honestly I have never been impressed by his lines - other than the fact that they were at least ruly Appy lines and not Quarterhorses with spots.

To get back to your foal, I think the foal is very nice, and as I said I appreciate Appy to Appy breeding, but that doesn't change my opinion that the foal is still the result of mediocre breeding programs which are quite honestly color breeding programs rather than conformation and ability breeding programs.

Just my opinion, of course, and please don't take my opinion the wrong way, because any Appy to Appy breeding program is still better than what ApHC condones...


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

Faceman said:


> Interesting conversation. I agree with you on some things, disagree on others, and both agree and disagree with Bubba on certain issues.
> 
> There is probably more Appy expertise on this board than you might realize, so no need to think there aren't knowledgeable Appy people here. I am 64 years old and was raised with Appys, bred Appys for over 20 years myself, and my granfather, who was a Native American, raised Appys for about 30 years beginning back around 1925 - long before ApHC was ever thought of. And I went through the Appy wars with ApHC in the early 80's when ApHC made the decision to sell out the breed in favor of generating revenues and achieving major registry status by remaining a color registry instead of transitioning to become an actual breed registry. ApHC tries to promote itself as a breed registry, which is blatantly stupid...it also tries to lead people to believe it "originated" the Appy, which is even more stupid.
> 
> Here is where I sort of straddle the middle between you and Bubba. I am always pleased to see Appy to Appy breeding, however let's call a spade a spade - much of the foundation Appy breeding has been for color without always incorporating the best of choices in breeding stock for conformation and ability. As Bubba says, this has altered the original concept and purpose of the Appy, which was versatility - a combination of endurance and performance that no other breed has. The poor choice of breeding stock by many foundation breeders has destroyed much of that versatility (I am not necessarily referring to you directly here), so that many modern day "foundation" Appys, while truly Appys, are mere shadows of what the breed once was.
> 
> Of course that is still better than what ApHC has done. Many people don't realize that Appys pre-date Quarterhorses by many many years. Native Americans were raising Appys before Quarterhorses even existed and certainlygenerations before the first Thoroughbred set foot on American soil. Yet ApHC permits - and encourages - outcrossing with both Quarterhorses and Thoroughbreds. Crossing with Arabs doesn't bother me as much, because Arabs and Appys have very similar roots. While it is true Thoroughbreds arose from desert roots as did Appys, in the case of Thoroughbreds, they have long since been developed to have little to no resemblence to those roots, therefore outcrossing to modern day Thoroughbreds is not crossing similar to similar, but rather crossing two disctinctly different breeds resulting in what actually is nothing more than a grade. That is to take nothing away fromt the horses themselves...an Appy/TB cross can be a great horse, as can an Appy/QH cross. But they are not Appys.
> 
> You refer to Frank Scripter lines, but he was not noted for breeding great horses - he was noted for breeding Leopards. While that is great for Leopard folks, it is not necessarily great for the breed, and quite honestly I have never been impressed by his lines - other than the fact that they were at least ruly Appy lines and not Quarterhorses with spots.
> 
> To get back to your foal, I think the foal is very nice, and as I said I appreciate Appy to Appy breeding, but that doesn't change my opinion that the foal is still the result of mediocre breeding programs which are quite honestly color breeding programs rather than conformation and ability breeding programs.
> 
> Just my opinion, of course, and please don't take my opinion the wrong way, because any Appy to Appy breeding program is still better than what ApHC condones...


 
Loved your whole post. Very thought out and non offensive. I totally agree with everything you said and you are correct. Frank was known for breeding leopards. Not for show records on any horse. There are very few breeders perpetuating the appyxappy breeding and like you said.. stock is mediocre in a lot of programs. 

I am planning on exhibiting flair this summer in halter and loungeline. I will certainly keep everyone updated on his wins  Ive also got another mare im training in endurance this summer she just turned five. Im hoping to have her ready for competition by next year.


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## Faceman

Keep us (me) posted. I would like to see more foundation Appys competing and bringing more supporters of true Appys into the fold...


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## ThursdayNext

Too funny! I saw your foal (and boy, is he cute!) and my first thought was "Is this a Knabstrupper?" I love that leopard spotting!!


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## waresbear

The most versatile horse in the world that I had honor of knowing & competing against was an Appaloosa. His papers read all Aphc, not a single Aqha or JC, I am still friends with his owner (horse has been deceased for a decade), I asked her what his papers read after reading this post. Thanks for the informative posts and the great pics of the foal, sorry I can't look at him too long, he truly does him give me googly eyes.


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## hillside farm

I agree with Ghostwind Appaloosa, I owned 7 stallions and they were all handled and ridden by my 3 daughters, these 7 stallions were also pastured together.
My App stallion was a son of "The Roman Hustler", his dam was a QH with Poco Pine & Clabber Bar breeding, my app mares were foundation bred, grandaughter of Bambi E etc. also had afew rat tail mares.
The Appaloosa's today are Quarter horses with spots.


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## crimsonsky

i am an appaloosa fan for sure - thanks for this thread!


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## blue eyed pony

I really like his shoulder and hindquarter (OP's foal that is). Nice flashy colouring too. But I feel like he'll mature to have an unattractive head and possibly a short and blocky neck as well. I see some potential there if he's bred to mares with more refined heads and necks provided they ALSO share his lovely shoulder and hindquarter. You don't want to compromise on conformation for the sake of pretty heads and necks.


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## mystykat

My eyes hurt.. He's so grogeous, make sure you post more pictures as he grows up!


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## bubba13

Just wanted to share these two for thoughts...
Two full siblings.


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## Bellasmom

Lol, I like the first one....got the short neck all right, but kinda like all that round spotted voluptuousness....


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

Here is an update 
Foal pic:








9 months old (13.2 hands)








foal head








9 months








Couple random arena photos


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

bubba13 said:


> Just wanted to share these two for thoughts...
> Two full siblings.


any chance you have foal pix of them?


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## Kansas Spice Girl

^^^^^That would be really neat if you did!


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

Flair @ 11 months


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## Koolio

Lovely!


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## GhostwindAppaloosa

Updated photo of mister flair. Over a year old now


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## Cacowgirl

Wow! Beautiful horse! Quite the eye candy.


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## Fahntasia

He is stunning, love those spots and stripes =)


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