# Crops--cruel or beneficial when used properly?



## SilentPromises (Jun 18, 2012)

Hi all! My horse has a lot of issues currently (that I believe are simple fixes). He was not ridden very regularly prior to me getting him. He's currently pretty rusty in A LOT of areas. I feel that a crop would be helpful in fixing some of the more important issues I have stumbled across. 

Some of his current issues include:

-Refusing to move forward without having to circle him. 

-Backing up when I ask him to move forward--sometimes he will even back in a circle when I attempt to use a circle as a fix. Usually in this situation, I will ask him to back quite a distance. I've found with a lot of horses that they would rather walk forward than back, and when given the choice, will walk forward--problem solved..temporarily. A smack on the butt helps as well--but I don't like being physical with him any more than absolutely necessary. 

-His transitions need work. His walk to trot has gotten nearly flawless--however, his trot to canter is bloody horrid. Instead of transitioning smoothly and fluidly, he merely proceeds to trot faster and faster until it's both silly looking and extremely uncomfortable for the both of us, I'm sure. At this point, It's very difficult to both ride such a trot and continue ask him productively for a canter. He will eventually pick up a canter, and it's lovely! However, this needs work. A pop on the withers will more often than not work--since he was ridden western before me, his previous rider would use the split reins on the withers; unfortunately I can't do that with English reins (though I shouldn't have to!)

-He isn't necessarily refusing jumps, though he slows down drastically and hops over them or even steps over instead of jumping. This problem, I'm not extremely concerned with as I feel that this just needs a bit of work. He is most likely new to even small jumps, so I want to take my time with this. I just figured I would mention it. 

*Would a crop help me if used properly?* I have never had to use a crop on a horse more than once or so, and it was because said horse was just plain lazy. I don't want to be cruel to my boy--I just can't imagine him thinking of me as an aggressive rider. I want to be assertive, but not aggressive. I want him to enjoy our partnership as I do, not fear it and me. 

Any and all opinions or input welcomed and appreciated


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

It sounds like it would. Crops actually aren't painful most of the time unless you really swing hard. 

Sounds like there are some respect issues there that a crop might fix!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

The first two, yes to back up your leg. One good whack along with your leg aid may put a stop to this, not just using it alone. Make sure when you do whack, you are ready for the reaction and don't lean on or pull him back on the reins. That will undo what you taught him.

As for the transitions.. no. That sounds more like he's unbalanced. Lots of transitions down and up will fix that as will time. Horses build muscle memory as we do. Then if he isn't listening to your leg, you can give him a tap on his rump along with your leg aids, but honestly it sounds as though he's dull to your leg, and needs time ridden correctly to improve.

Also lunging trot to canter, canter to trot on the ground will help him get the transition down better. I always slow my horse down, halt halt to balance, and cue for the canter. I refuse to let him do the "tranter" so I slow him down, get him balanced and ask again. Ask him coming out of a corner. Large curves are easier for a horse than straight lines.

As for the jumping, consult an instructor.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

As long as you don't become completely reliant on the crop, it can definitely be beneficial. Ask for the upward transition with your leg, and if it's ignored or he doesn't respond quickly enough, re-enforce it with a crop.

I carry a crop with me when I'm competing my TB over fences (eventing and jumpers, not for hunters) or schooling new XC obstacles. I never use one in jumping lessons.


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## SilentPromises (Jun 18, 2012)

Thanks!!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I have half of some 8' split reins draped around my saddle horn. If my mare is afraid of something ahead, I work with her on her fear. But if she just doesn't feel like going further, and she starts backing up...then a quick pop on her butt beats her backing rear first into some cholla cactus...


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## SilentPromises (Jun 18, 2012)

bsms said:


> I have half of some 8' split reins draped around my saddle horn. If my mare is afraid of something ahead, I work with her on her fear. But if she just doesn't feel like going further, and she starts backing up...then a quick pop on her butt beats her backing rear first into some cholla cactus...


Haha!! For sure! My boy almost backed us off a cliff today. And into an electric fence. And a tree. That's when I realized that something had to be done before someone gets hurt!! (Better than cactus butt though!) :lol:


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## SilentPromises (Jun 18, 2012)

I don't really worry about him being afraid, because as a previous search and rescue horse I was told that he had seen it all and been through it all. Her exact words were "If he acts afraid--he's not." I don't go by this all of the time, but he is a pretty fearless boy (which could be good or bad when you think about it!)


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## KissTheRing (Aug 2, 2011)

Hmm this is similar to a post I put up and ultamatly decided that I would use a crop and It has worked wonders on our transitions and our "Listen Here" moments- Never had to over assert myself just gave him a tap to get his attention- I'd say try and let us know how it worked out!


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Use it. He may even come to the point where you don't have to actually use it, just have it and raise it. When my horse decides he's forgetting himself, out comes to crop and I don't even have to use it - I just have to wiggle it as though I'm about to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

When you use it make it count! The goal of a crop is to discourage bad behavior, not to make him move. Ask once, if you don't get a response WHACK him and your leg aides too. This should leave an impression that you mean BUSINESS when you ask him to move forward and he won't soon forget what happened when he didn't move. I'd rather see someone get the point across once then gently tap their horse 100 time and constantly have to ride with a crop. 

As for your canter it could be a balance issue. Another common mistake I see is the horse having the energy, but the rider not able to contain it. Don't let him rush forward, hold him and bottle that energy up into the canter. Also, make sure your not doing anything that would hinder him, for example posting, leaning forward, etc. Make sure your cues are solid and consistent. Personally, I live verbals (noises) for transitions to make it all the more clear. I finds it helps a lot when training or tuning a horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

It is rare to see me riding my 4YO without a crop. When I ask for something, I want it WHEN I ask. So I always carry my crop as a just in case, whether working on transitions in the ring or crossing water on the trail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

I wouldn't worry about being too dependent on a crop, or being too harsh. When used correctly, they are very good teaching tools.

I used to ride a paint gelding, laziest horse I have ever ridden, no joke. Some people can't even get this horse to walk, let alone canter or gallop.

I started riding him, and I used a crop to get him to listen. I do the same for any horse that is ignoring my cues, but I always ask in the same order.

1. Ask normal for a trot/canter or for forward movement. Soft cue with your calf/rein

If no response:

2. Ask harder, a sharp jab in the ribs with your heels is usually what I do. 

If no response:

3. At this point I am determined to get this horse to move, which is where the crop comes in. He gets a hard, quick whack on the butt or shoulder, depending. I've never had to go past this step to get a horse to move. 

When he does move, I take off all that pressure and let him move.

The next time I ask for forward movement, I do the same 3 steps in order, always assuming he will just listen with the first step, and never using the crop until I give him a chance to listen to my slight cues. With most horses, just knowing that you are serious and will use a crop is enough to get them to move off the slight cues, step 1. 

I had that paint gelding cantering, bareback in a halter without a crop after only a few weeks, off slight cues. Other people still have trouble getting him to just trot, but if you prove you are serious to the horse, they will take you serious and eventually, hopefully, you won't have to use a crop anymore. The whole goal of a training device, to me, is to get to the point where you no longer need to use it, and the horse still listens to you, that's when you know you've used it properly.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*using riding whips*

I got blocked from Rick Gores channel for (correctly) saying to some kid that whips weren't invented for desensitizing horses to loud popping noises but for encouraging horses to go forward. The fact that some people use them for abuse is neither here nor there and I would rather see someone give a horse/pony a quick tap than see a rider constantly banging away at its sides which is actually just going to desensitize them to that so they turn into 'go slow plugs'
I would suggest you introduce your horse to a whip first to see his reaction - just in case the very idea of you carrying one sends it into a mad panic attack (been there, learnt the lesson when I was about 12) If all seems to be OK then get yourself a long schooling whip so you can use it behind your legs while still holding the reins and not yanking him in the mouth. Start gently until you see what sort of reaction you are going to get - you might go off like a rocket or he might need a harder tap. I used to school my horses that were aimed for dressage with a long schooling whip in each hand so that they stayed really light to the leg aids.
Our Irish Draft gets lazy if she has a break and just carrying one works for her - never had to use it


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## NeuroticMare (Jan 8, 2012)

When used correctly, they are the opposite of cruel. What's better, being told once and then firmly backing it up? Or the nag nag nag nag nag nag (you get it) you see so many people doing with their heels or spurs to get their pony to move.

My childhood trainer (good ol' Max von Blucher from Austria) told us that getting on your pony without a crop was like going in to battle without your sword. There was one pony in the barn that was the exception to the rule, but like I said, he was the exception! If you had not had the "pleasure" of being run off with that pony, you hadn't lived


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## EvilHorseOfDoom (Jun 17, 2012)

Ever hit yourself with a crop (like you would if you used it properly)? It doesn't hurt. Makes a good smacking noise though. Old style racing whips are a different story but a smack with the crop on the shoulder when needed is better in my book than letting the horse get away with not working and making a habit of it, or putting a pair of spurs on. So long as you use it as an aid to get his attention on you when he's ignoring your leg, and not as a punishment, I don't see it as cruel. Be aware that some horses are whip shy though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThursdayNext (Oct 18, 2011)

Interesting thread, since I just started using a crop myself a couple of weeks ago. Usually my horse is pretty sensitive to the aids, but once in a while, he just doesn't feel like working and ignores them. My trainer hates the nag nag nag someone mentioned above, and gave me a crop. I am sure that they *can* be abused, but what I was taught then is that the right use makes a nice popping sound - I tried this out on my own leg, and it didn't hurt at all. 

The process Lakotababii described above is the one I was told to use. Works well, so far. My horse was shocked when I started carrying the crop, though! He didn't believe I'd actually use the thing, so I had to demonstrate that. Now it seems to be enough that he sees me with it, and I don't have to actually use it very often.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*whips - when to use*

It really is to me one of those 'safety net' things that is there if you need it and if you don't need it its not such a big hassle to have in your hand. Its a shame that those of us who carry a whip like this have to take all the flack for the minority who use them in temper mostly because they either don't have the patience or someone couldn't be bothered or didn't know how to train the horse right in the first place.
Every young horse that we bred was so well handled and confident around people from the very start that having a saddle put on and then a rider after the basics were sorted was like just another step along the way, they had nothing to fear so lots of people get hold of a horse like this and then think there are going to be some sort of magic buttons on the horses sides that you can just touch and he will jump the corral fence and gallop safely off into the sunset. WRONG!!!!!
There are lazy horses and then there are the ones who just don't understand what you're asking them to do - thats when the whip shouldn't be used and you have to go back to basics and educate them


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## goingnowhere1 (Jan 22, 2012)

Crops are only cruel if the hands that use them are cruel. After reading your issues, a crop would be most beneficial. Just remember to use leg too. Last year I got too dependent on the crop and my legs weren't getting worked. It took me this past year to correct that mistake.


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## SilentPromises (Jun 18, 2012)

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate all of your input  I'm definitely going to start carrying a crop, and using it only when I absolutely need to. Hopefully that will fix any respect issues and get this awesome boy to his fullest potential


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

I would invest in a dressage whip. It is easier to carry with your reins still in their normal position and still be effective. If your main issue is about him backing up, being able to give that extra bit of "I said forward" from his hind end will help more than a short crop which either requires you to reach back or to pop him on the shoulder. 

I do agree with Sky that your transitions sound more like a balance issue than an obedience one. Perhaps some lounging in side reins adjusted for a long and low frame would help him to learn self carriage so he can give you better transitions.


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## Mysticalmares (Jun 22, 2012)

*Yes!*

My Crop to me is like an extension of my arm!! When I turn I just tap his outside him and when I back I tap His chest. I Am really gentle just a tap! And It is a GREAT training tool!! My Horse improved on his turns a ton!!


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

NeuroticMare said:


> My childhood trainer (good ol' Max von Blucher from Austria) told us that getting on your pony without a crop was like going in to battle without your sword.


If I leave the barn without a crop or whip my trainer yells "Where's your weapon? You NEVER go to war without a weapon!!!".

I wouldn't whack a horse with a crop or whip if you don't know how they will react. If I was to whack mine, I'd be a bloody splotch 3 counties over... :shock: Generally just carrying one gives me PLENTY of forward.... I'll wiggle it or very, very gently touch him with it if needed but that's it.


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## fadingtwilight (Dec 3, 2009)

Delfina said:


> If I leave the barn without a crop or whip my trainer yells "Where's your weapon? You NEVER go to war without a weapon!!!".
> 
> I wouldn't whack a horse with a crop or whip if you don't know how they will react. If I was to whack mine, I'd be a bloody splotch 3 counties over... :shock: Generally just carrying one gives me PLENTY of forward.... I'll wiggle it or very, very gently touch him with it if needed but that's it.


Great description! Some days it sure does feel like war!  Crops can definitely be a good thing, and it sounds like this might be a good time for you to add it into your riding. I can tell what kind of ride we are probably going to have based on my guy's mood. That's usually when I know whether or not I need to drag out my dressage whip. I always start out the ride giving him a chance to do what I ask, but then I'll pick it up if I need to. Most of the time I need it, I'm able to drop it by the end of our ride.


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

My instructor has gotten me to the point where I don't think about it. I have a whip when I get on a horse. It actually feels a little odd to get on a greenie without one. I may not always have to use it, but if I do, it is part of my hand. I would no sooner get on a horse without reins than without my whip these days.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm also thinking your horse has balance issues and may not really understand what you are asking. You have trouble getting him to go forward without circling yet you expect him to transition from trot to canter. You have to build the foundation first. If he won't move forward when you apply leg, have someone lead him. As soon as he starts moving get your leg off. Repeat this many times before trying him without a helper. Just be sure your saddle fits fairly well because a poorly fitting saddle can create these problems. Also, are you well balanced in the saddle or do you put more pressure in one stirrup than the other.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I second the person who said get a dressage/schooling whip. Crops are useless except when jumping. Hitting the shoulder when the horse is already tending to go backwards will send it backwards faster, not forwards.

Lack of balance in the canter transition, but the rest is pure disrespect IF you are indeed being told the truth about this horse. I will say it once - RESPECT IS KEY. Horses are dangerous enough when they're behaving perfectly, why make it worse for yourself by allowing a horse to get away with disrespect? You ask for forward, you GET forward, NOW.

I start with a very soft aid - a whisper, if we're speaking in human metaphors. That can be as simple as a wiggle of a finger, or the lightest touch of a heel. Then I move up to a moderate aid, an ask. And then a strong aid, tell. A boot with all my strength in the ribs, demand. And finally, whip or spur or both - promise.

The whisper is a quiet "please oh pretty please will you?". The ask is "please?". The tell is (using walk as an example) "walk". Demand "walk NOW". Promise "YOU WILL WALK ON RIGHT NOW OR ELSE".

I never have to get beyond "please?" with my boy now. I started off having to go right the way up to the promise, and the trick is to have a REALLY good final phase because you don't HAVE anywhere to go after that so it HAS TO give you the result. But timing is key, you release the pressure AS SOON AS the horse gives you what you want. Otherwise you're abusing the horse because it doesn't understand what you're trying to teach it.

I have been accused of abuse several times before, by the "omg soft pretty please will you? no? ok" types mostly who allow their horses to walk all over them. But the results speak for themselves, my gelding is soft and willing and has BEAUTIFUL manners with absolutely no fear whatsoever, and my filly (who I mouthed myself) is beautiful and light when I longline her, and has perfect manners - again with no trace of fear.

You have to throw away your care of what OTHER PEOPLE think of you, to be able to successfully regain the respect of a horse once you have lost it. You do need to start gentle every time or the horse will never learn to be truly soft, BUT you do need to be able to be very firm, even harsh, if necessary. Do whatever it takes to get the result you want, and the horse will very quickly learn to respond to a softer aid, because it's much more pleasant to be gently touched (or not at all) than to be hit with a whip.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

A crop or popper may help yes, but a couple of things concern me a little as there could be a good reason for the behavior. The refusing to move forward, and the backing when you ask to go forward are both signs that your saddle could be hitting the backs of your horse's shoulders. Please double check that your saddle is fitting properly... if you aren't sure how to tell, take pictures of the saddle on your horse with NO pad and not girthed, from the front, sides and back and post them and there will be plenty of people that can help you on here. 

As for hitting the shoulders. After you saddle up, with help if you need it, pick up one of your horse's front legs and while supporting from behind and just above the knee stretch it forward while watching where the back of his shoulder is going... you may have to put your hand on the back of his shoulder to feel where it is going. Youmay have to lift the knee a bit high, the goal is to find where the shoulder's range of motion is while the horse is moving. If either shoulder touches the saddle when you do this, even a little, that is a BIG irritation to the horse while being worked and can even cause bruising. Imagine someone thumping you hard in the back of the elbow every few seconds...after a while you'd scream KNOCK IT OFF! LOL

If this horse hasn't been consistently worked, and then starts working again with a piece of tack that is irritating or painful, he will digress even more as he will start to associate pain with working and eventually make matters worse no matter how much you use a crop. Some horses even start to resort to rearing and other bad habits when forced to work with painful tack so be careful and make sure this isn't your issue


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Cin I considered that too, but enough people had mentioned it that I figured I didn't need to reiterate. Yep, saddle fit is important too. And, OP, make sure you're not whacking the horse in the mouth when you ask him to go forward - that REALLY irritates me when I see it. Mixed signals for some horses, a CUE to go backwards for others! My horse backs when you push him forward into an unyielding rein.


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## Just Me (Jun 14, 2012)

Is the transition from western to english causing any confusion?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

^ I wouldn't imagine it should? Not for basic pleasure riding? The little bit of western I have done has been very much similar to the lot of English I have done, having been a pleasure rider most of my life... horse on a long rein, steering without actually touching the horse's mouth. Leg aids are fairly similar. Only real difference is the tack, at a basic pleasure trails level.

Of course if OP is riding with contact the horse may be interpreting this as an unyielding hand (depends what type of western training it has had), and it may simply think that it's being asked to back up.


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

SilentPromises said:


> -He isn't necessarily refusing jumps, though he slows down drastically and hops over them or even steps over instead of jumping. This problem, I'm not extremely concerned with as I feel that this just needs a bit of work. He is most likely new to even small jumps, so I want to take my time with this. I just figured I would mention it.



All due respect, but with the other issues you described, I would stop jumping right now. Jumping requires an obedient horse and a good level of trust and respect between horse and rider. Between any possible saddle fit issues and just his general lack of forward, jumping is only going to make your other problems worse.

I would back up and do the lounge work with side reins, have someone who is really good with it help you check your saddle fit, and spend some time in hand teaching him what the whip means so you don't accidentally scare the snot outta the poor guy.


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## SilentPromises (Jun 18, 2012)

*Thanks!*

Thanks for all of the input! 

Just some extra info: I've mostly just been spending time on the ground bonding with him, loving on him, and just learning who he is. I've also played out on the trails with him and that's where I noticed those issues (hence the reason I've done a bit off jumping and cantering already. I've been just trying to feel him out and have a bit of fun before the hard work starts!) 

I believe the saddle fit to be fine, as he is at a boarding stable and there are many very kind and experienced riders there to help me and I feel as though one of them would have expressed concern had they felt there was a potential problem. They're truly wonderful 

Also, his previous owner still has a horse at the barn, so she is around pretty often to help me with any issues I've stumbled across. She said that he is a horse for an experienced rider and is brilliant once he understands that I am not just going to sit on his back and say "oh pretty please" when he doesn't listen. She said that she feels as though he is testing me with some of this behavior, and I would really love to get him to respect me without me having to break his ribs with my heels or raise my voice or smack him. I do not want to be the big scary person that he fears--I want to be the person that he respects enough to do what I am asking of him  His previous owner agrees that a crop is going to be beneficial, and she has a dressage whip that she said I am free to use whenever I want. Yay!


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## SilentPromises (Jun 18, 2012)

blue eyed pony said:


> Of course if OP is riding with contact the horse may be interpreting this as an unyielding hand (depends what type of western training it has had), and it may simply think that it's being asked to back up.


I was a bit worried about this too--I tried just as an experiment to entirely release the reins (though keeping a hand on them) and it didn't affect him decision to go backwards at all. I typically will just place my hands as high up on his neck as comfortable just to be sure that I'm not putting any pressure on him to stop or back. 

I'm definitely not doing the whole first-time-on-a-horse thing of trying to get the horse to stop backing up by using the typical stop command.  I've seen this happen before, and may have done it when I first got on a horse at 8 or 9. How embarrassing!! :lol:


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## SilentPromises (Jun 18, 2012)

MysterySparrow said:


> All due respect, but with the other issues you described, I would stop jumping right now. Jumping requires an obedient horse and a good level of trust and respect between horse and rider. Between any possible saddle fit issues and just his general lack of forward, jumping is only going to make your other problems worse.
> 
> I would back up and do the lounge work with side reins, have someone who is really good with it help you check your saddle fit, and spend some time in hand teaching him what the whip means so you don't accidentally scare the snot outta the poor guy.


I definitely won't be doing jumping or even much riding for a while as I want to get the basics down beforehand. The only reason that I have stumbled across these problems is because I took him out on the trail for a couple of days just to have a little bit of fun and to get a feel for him, hence the reason I ran him a bit and jumped some good sized logs. Overall, I think he's a brilliant horse, but I just want to fix these issues before they get worse. 
He's also had a whip used with him before as he does have a habit of being lazy at times, so I don't think my using it properly will scare him


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*western to english*



Just Me said:


> Is the transition from western to english causing any confusion?


 Funny this as I had to give up on a lovely horse last year that had got many wins in western pleasure - very slow gaits, nose almost on the ground. Fabulous paces on the lunge or free worked (which is what attracted me too her) but as soon as I was on her and asked her to lift her head up and work at a normal pace/leg commands she would either freeze or have a panic attack. I got her to the point where she would do a normal trot for a while but not reliable and we had a few unpleasant leaping through the air turns when asked to go forward even on a light rein. My vets assistant thought she had probably been taught to 'spur stop' I have no experience of western riding AT ALL so decided to send her back after 6 weeks, she went straight to a western pleasure yard and I got an english style horse - not perfect by a long way yet but at least we are reading from the same book if not always the same page.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Jaydee that's why I said it depends on the type of western training... a WP horse is trained to go as slowly as possible, and SOMETIMES using cruel methods (not always, I have seen some beautifully trained WP horses). So english riding is very confusing for them!! Whereas a Western trail horse, or cow horse, cutter, reiner etc might make the transition very easily. Allison Finch on here had/has a QH she trained to eventing from I think reining, it can be done.


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## ThursdayNext (Oct 18, 2011)

SilentPromises said:


> I believe the saddle fit to be fine, as he is at a boarding stable and there are many very kind and experienced riders there to help me and I feel as though one of them would have expressed concern had they felt there was a potential problem. They're truly wonderful


FYI - it's not always obvious when there is a saddle fit problem, so unless you've asked someone experienced with saddle fit to stop and carefully check out your setup, they wouldn't notice. So even though no one has said anything (and they are the kind of people who would), the silence might be because they are unaware. 

Another thing about saddle fit is that you have to check it, as Cinny said, when you've got just the saddle on and no pad and no girth. This is not something you'd be doing in the normal course of events, which makes it even less likely that one of the other riders would know if there was a fit problem.

You'd also need to be sure you were getting someone with sufficient experience to check too. I ride a lot, and I have a horse that was hard to fit with a saddle, so I *had* to learn a great deal about saddle fit while I was buying his tack. But what I know is just a scratch on the surface compared to what my trainer knows, and that is less than what the saddle specialist from the tack shop knew, and none of us know anything at all when compared to the region's saddle fitter - the guy who travels from barn to barn reflocking saddles and providing customized fits.

There are a lot of things that can be contributing to your issue, as everyone has observed - but I wouldn't at this point rule out "saddle fit" as one of those. With the help of my trainer and the saddle expert from the tack shop, I got a saddle that *pretty much* fit my boy, and to that we added a riser pad and the combination of the two *mostly* fit him - and I used that long enough to let the saddle start packing down, and then got the saddle fitter in. Now I don't need the riser pad, and the saddle *totally* fits him, and it is *astonishing* what a difference that made in his ability to move out smoothly!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*western to english*



blue eyed pony said:


> Jaydee that's why I said it depends on the type of western training... a WP horse is trained to go as slowly as possible, and SOMETIMES using cruel methods (not always, I have seen some beautifully trained WP horses). So english riding is very confusing for them!! Whereas a Western trail horse, or cow horse, cutter, reiner etc might make the transition very easily. Allison Finch on here had/has a QH she trained to eventing from I think reining, it can be done.


I can absolutely see that as I did try a couple of horses that had been trained as trail/reiners/ranch etc and to me they were much the same as the mounted games/gymkhana ponies of my youth, in fact they were hardly any different to the mare I was retiring and looking to replace. I actually now regret that I didn't buy one of them as they suited my style a lot better as they were 'sharper' and a lot more fun than the mare I ended up with. Maybe next time!!!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

yeah maybe!! I want a reiner lol but reining isn't really very big here, cutting is more the go for western folks.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*western to english*



blue eyed pony said:


> yeah maybe!! I want a reiner lol but reining isn't really very big here, cutting is more the go for western folks.


 I think my days of doing anything like that are long gone and in my dreams, I can't help but feel that they must somehow subdue most horses to make them feel 'safe' for the amateur/novice market. I might not be young anymore but I still want a horse that skips along a bit and feels like its enjoying what its doing rather than making me feel it would rather be putting its hooves up with a nice cool drink by the pool!!


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## Nicole (Mar 21, 2008)

A crop/whip is simply an extension of your leg aid. Of course, any tool in the wrong hands can be used cruelly.

If you are working on the flat to get him more responsive to your leg, I would recommend a dressage whip instead of a crop. This will make it easier for you to use the whip to tap behind the lower leg, which is the aid you are trying to reinforce. I typically only use crops or bats when jumping, when you need more control over the horse's shoulders to prevent him from ducking out of a jump.

Of course, you will want to acclimate your horse to the dressage whip (or any crop/whip for that matter) if he has never had one used on him before. Otherwise, he may kick out in protest if you spring it on him without warning. If you need to get him acclimated to a whip, start by touching it all over his body, starting with the lower legs. 

A word of caution: the dressage whip does not have a wide leather piece on the end like most crops do. The skinnier the whip, the more painful it can be if used inproperly. A tap is all you should need to reinforce your aids.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

jaydee said:


> I think my days of doing anything like that are long gone and in my dreams, I can't help but feel that they must somehow subdue most horses to make them feel 'safe' for the amateur/novice market. I might not be young anymore but I still want a horse that skips along a bit and feels like its enjoying what its doing rather than making me feel it would rather be putting its hooves up with a nice cool drink by the pool!!


lol I am a MAJOR adrenaline junkie. deadheaded horses bore me to death, and simple circles/trails aren't enough. A good reining pattern would be awesome fun to ride I think! Why must western flatwork be so much more fun than English flatwork??


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*western to english*



blue eyed pony said:


> lol I am a MAJOR adrenaline junkie. deadheaded horses bore me to death, and simple circles/trails aren't enough. A good reining pattern would be awesome fun to ride I think! Why must western flatwork be so much more fun than English flatwork??


I am still 12 years old in my head, its just the body thats fighting back!! I thought I might settle down and do some dressage but I can't remember the tests most of the time as my head is off somewhere else. I do like the look of this cowboy dressage though as its so less restrained looking. I say 'no more jumping' as I know I'm more likely to break if I fall off but if we see a fallen tree out on the trails what else can you do but jump it!!! I do see the skill in this slow precision stuff if its been achieved the right way but I need a horse with energy and impulsion. I've gone right back to basics with the new mare, working her on the lunge and she does have the energy, its almost as if she's had the desire to do it under saddle knocked out of her


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

^ yeah unfortunately some horses are still "broken" rather than trained :/

my gelding is the opposite, frisky under saddle and a total deadhead on the ground. Just how I like them  the mare I'm working at the moment has NO ground manners, and I find that really irritating. Going to fish a rope halter out of the top shelf of my wardrobe and have a "come to jesus" meeting with her tomorrow I think!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*right training*



blue eyed pony said:


> ^ yeah unfortunately some horses are still "broken" rather than trained :/
> 
> my gelding is the opposite, frisky under saddle and a total deadhead on the ground. Just how I like them  the mare I'm working at the moment has NO ground manners, and I find that really irritating. Going to fish a rope halter out of the top shelf of my wardrobe and have a "come to jesus" meeting with her tomorrow I think!


 Its how they should be - I hate bad mannered horses, they are so dangerous without even meaning to be because no one seemed to think it mattered to start from the ground up. I like them to have a character but that doesn't mean they can by downright rude. Too many cranks out there with stupid ideas and too many people who think that horses can be played with like a pet dog or have the same feelings and mind as a human and the other sort that confuse respect with fear. That sort of takes us back to the whole whip thing and the lobby of people out there that insist that anyone who carries a whip is some sort of mindless, cruel, sadist.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

jaydee said:


> Its how they should be - I hate bad mannered horses, they are so dangerous without even meaning to be because no one seemed to think it mattered to start from the ground up. I like them to have a character but that doesn't mean they can by downright rude. Too many cranks out there with stupid ideas and too many people who think that horses can be played with like a pet dog or have the same feelings and mind as a human and the other sort that confuse respect with fear. That sort of takes us back to the whole whip thing and the lobby of people out there that insist that anyone who carries a whip is some sort of mindless, cruel, sadist.


Yep totally agree. My filly's dead quiet on the ground too! (haven't been on her back yet though)..

My pet peeve is those horses that are handled ALL THE TIME (think commercial operations, racehorses etc) and have dreadful manners because "there isn't time" to teach them good manners... Isn't time? Yeah, right. Because there's not time to insist they stay OUT of your space when you're leading them up. Because there's not time to spend an extra few seconds picking out their feet because you hang on when they try to snatch them away. It's not THAT hard, and it doesn't take long :/

edit to add; this mare I'm working with raced and then pretty much went straight from racing to her owner's place to be handled by a 14yo who has NO IDEA what groundwork is, or how to insist on good manners when leading even... geeze there is a REASON their nearly 3yo gelding rears and strikes out and kicks and bites, and that's because of a complete lack of RESPECT.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> ^ yeah unfortunately some horses are still "broken" rather than trained :/
> 
> my gelding is the opposite, frisky under saddle and a total deadhead on the ground. Just how I like them  the mare I'm working at the moment has NO ground manners, and I find that really irritating. Going to fish a rope halter out of the top shelf of my wardrobe and have a "come to jesus" meeting with her tomorrow I think!


Broken simply means the horse's resistant is broken, ergo he gives to pressure, like leg pressure, bit pressure, weight pressure, etc. Broken doesn't mean his spirit is broken, common misconception amongst novices.

Off topic a tiny tad.....went to buy a new dressage whip the other day, $50!!!!!???? When did the price jump?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Oh I know that's what most people use the term to mean, I just hate the word especially to mean a trained horse! My filly is nearly "broke" as in trained to ride, just have to back her and teach her about leg aids but I can't do that until she's a bit older. But I hate using "broke" or "broken" to describe it. It implies, to me, breaking something within them, which implies force, and therefore unpleasantness.

A lot of horses ARE still "trained" by having their spirit broken, and I hate that.


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