# Navicular Causing Hoof To Bleed? (Wondering)



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I have a horse with navicular. She never bled. She was always sound with proper farrier care. I read a lot about navicular after she was diagnosed, never read anything about bleeding.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

What you are describing sounds like a very bad case of founder - rotated coffin bone to the point of penetrating the sole, hence the bleeding.

So you say initially they did xrays to confirm navicular syndrome...but the xrays would be to confirm changes to the navicular bone, not coffin bone rotation - that's a whole other can of worms. I suppose it's possible to have both issues, especially with a horse that's been allowed to pound around on her forehand like you describe, but I would imagine that the result would have been EXTREME lameness, certainly not at a level where the horse could compete for another 13 years :? Something's not adding up.


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

It is URGENT to have your friend get the vet out. It could be a very serious problem with her/his horse.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I agree - this is a serious issue that should have a vet and probably new x-rays to figure out the best course of action.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

This doesn't sound good. I hope someone has helped the mare in some way.


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

Gremmy- The info I posted was the info they told me about when she was Xrayed and whatnot. These are the type of people that if they have a horse they expect it to "work" until it can no longer work anymore, so basically running them into the ground.(I don't agree with it at all, the mare should have been retired years ago) Poor mare was limping all this past show season and yet they refused to retire her, instead they buted her up and she still limped with the bute. They were even debating RUNNING her next year!(I'm glad they're not) And yes this mare pounds incredibly hard so it honestly wouldn't surprise me if more damage hasn't taken place and I'm pretty sure it has given the recent discoveries.

Casey- They wont get the vet out until it's basically the horse is about to drop dead. Which I don't understand why, they use the same vet as me and his prices are EXTREMELY generous. 

Cat- if it was my mare she would have had Xrays over the years to check everything, but alas she is not mine.

Natisha- The only person out to see the horse when they found her soles completely bruised was the farrier. He never mentioned a thing about the navicular, never brought up the idea of founder, nothing as far as I know. He even suggested putting new shoes on her WITH HER FEET BLEEDING. Which honestly doesn't surprise me. He used to be my farrier and I found out he didn't go to farrier school just one of those guys who learned on his own, I switched real fast and foudn out he was shaping my old man's back feet all wrong. They wont switch though they adore him and have been through too many farriers to count!

Like I said I wish I could do something but she's not mine. I was just wondering what would cause her soles to completely bruise up to a dark purple and bleed when rasped. =(


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Agree with the others. Are we talking about navicular or founder here? Navicular won't cause coffin bone rotation or bleeding. Founder will cause both, as well as the extreme sudden-onset lameness....which can very quickly turn life-threatening.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

So they've been running her dead lame all this time? I don't know the barrel racing scene, wouldn't a dead lame horse be disqualified? I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around that; so xrays approx 13 years ago showed coffin bone rotation (founder). Bubba, you have a better handle on shoeing and hoof rehab than me...wedges for a rotated coffin bone? What?

So, mare has coffin bone rotation, uncertain about navicular changes, wedges, by some miracle is not only capable of hobbling around but is _raced_ for 13 years, and now at the age of 28, she can't even stand, and she has bleeding soles, suggesting the possibility of the coffin bone having penetrated the sole.

Wow. Honestly Phantomcolt, I know they're your friends and all, but that is outright abuse. I would be making an anonymous call to the proper authorities and getting that mare away from those people and at the very least out of her misery. Founder that severe is bad enough, I'm not sure what the prognosis is when the sole has started to bleed like that (thinking of how bad a simple nail puncture can be, founder will not be the only thing to worry about). Given her age as well... :? poor thing.


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

Bubba- From what they told me when they had Xrays done when she was 15 she was diagnosed with navicular syndrome and a slight rotation of the coffin bone in both front feet (one was more than the other but not by much) Was it possible she foundered before they bought her and the bone stayed rotated?(Sorry I don't know much about founder except how to prevent it and how to spot it early on) Then,recently, a few weeks after they pulled her barrel shoes she wouldn't walk and when she did it was painful so they called the farrier out and he discovered her soles were a dark purple. Then when he rasped her feet they bled(and he was debating nailing shoes onto her bleeding, painful feet ~grr~) 

*I wish she was my horse, then I'd be able to do something. I'm just trying to use this as a learning experience as it wasn't something I've ever heard of(hoof bleeding while being rasped and dark purple soles.) *


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Gremmy, my farrier has told me that some people wedge for founder. Which we both agreed seems completely counterproductive and bass-ackwards. But I guess it is, occasionally, done, though obviously it's far more common and useful for navicular cases.

Phantom, does the sole look like this?


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

Gremmy said:


> So they've been running her dead lame all this time? I don't know the barrel racing scene, wouldn't a dead lame horse be disqualified? I'm still having a hard time wrapping my head around that; so xrays approx 13 years ago showed coffin bone rotation (founder). Bubba, you have a better handle on shoeing and hoof rehab than me...wedges for a rotated coffin bone? What?
> 
> So, mare has coffin bone rotation, uncertain about navicular changes, wedges, by some miracle is not only capable of hobbling around but is _raced_ for 13 years, and now at the age of 28, she can't even stand, and *she has bleeding soles, suggesting the possibility of the coffin bone having penetrated the sole.*
> 
> Wow. Honestly Phantomcolt, I know they're your friends and all, but that is outright abuse. I would be making an anonymous call to the proper authorities and getting that mare away from those people and at the very least out of her misery. Founder that severe is bad enough, I'm not sure what the prognosis is when the sole has started to bleed like that (thinking of how bad a simple nail puncture can be, founder will not be the only thing to worry about). Given her age as well... :? poor thing.


Sorry we posted nearly the same time.

She hasn't been dead lame though that's the weird thing. She only started showing lameless this past April. It's strange. They buted her up so they could run her without her showing too much of a limp. She'd show a limp at a walk and trot but full out you couldn't tell unless you knew the horse really well.

Part I bolded in your post is what worries me the most because I know if this is the case they WILL NOT put her down. They don't like putting horses down and wait till the absolute last minute. :-(

I know, They're the type of friends that you LOVE sometimes but then they go and do something stupid so you just hate them. They're also the type that if you mention something about one of the horses and it's not the same as their opinion they will set out to make your statement sound so ridiculous and that their way is the way to go. 
If I did call Animal control I don't think there is much they would do. The horses have food, water, and shelter. Not trying to defend them it's just the truth.

Like I said I'm just trying to learn. The situation really isn't up to me but if she were mine I'd never have raced her and if she got this bad I'd put her down. :-(


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> Gremmy, my farrier has told me that some people wedge for founder. Which we both agreed seems completely counterproductive and bass-ackwards. But I guess it is, occasionally, done, though obviously it's far more common and useful for navicular cases.
> 
> Phantom, does the sole look like this?


No bubba the entire sole is literally purple like a bruise. And when he rasped they said he took two swipes at the edge and she started bleeding.

I'll attach a picture of what they told me it looked like the area outlined in purple was a dark purple and the area I edged with red was where she was bleeding. 

There was nothing open, it looked like a normal sole just dark purple.


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

thin bruised and possibly abscessed soles, unhealthy feet and a farrier that may not know much about how to judge solar depth. Sounds like she needs some knowledgeable rehabilitation and some owners who care enough to go the extra mile.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

This does sound a little more like bruising now. Excessive bruising. Need to get her soles up off the ground, and put her on some bute in the mean time.


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

Trinity I agree!


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

So excessive bruising could cause a horse's hoof to bleed at the very edges if it were to be rasped? 

Sorry this is a learning opportunity for me, I figured hey something I've never heard of might wanna ask the forumers about it to see if I learn somehting new.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

(Warning, slightly off topic)

I have noticed that people seem to confuse navicular with laminitis/founder all the time. Even the people at my local feed store. They're like "too much sugar in feed can cause navicular." Um, not really! And my best friend too. "Can't put XYX horse on pasture because he will get navicular." 

Now navicular isn't an easy disease to understand. But the basics are that it refers to heel pain in the horse, and it can be caused by arthritic changes to the navicular bone. The predisposition to navicular can be hereditary due to conformation.

Laminitis (inflamation of the sensitive lamini) can be cause by both excess sugar and/or concussion to the feet (also retained placenta in mares). 

Founder is the rotation of the coffin bone that can result from severe cases of laminitis. Think of it as the internal structures of the hoof separating from the hoof wall because the lamini have come apart. Therefore the hoof wall can no longer support the coffin bone/internal structures like it should.

That is my laymen's farrier science lesson for the day.

To Phantomcolt18, bless you for trying to help this horse. Hugs!


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

trailhorserider;1252507
To Phantomcolt18 said:


> I hate to say it(this is going to make me sound SO cold hearted but I swear I am NOT) but my reasons for posting this wasn't to help her because there's nothing I could do. I saw an opportunity for a learning experience and I took it. If I could help her I would but I in reality can't and to be honest it's not my business I just thought it was interesting/scary and wanted to know more about it to prevent it from happening to any of my future horses


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Phantomcolt18 said:


> So excessive bruising could cause a horse's hoof to bleed at the very edges if it were to be rasped?


I would think it could. But whatever the cause the soles are too thin and the horse doesn't have enough protection for the internal structures of the feet. I would think a horse bruised that badly is at risk for abcesses too. :-(

She definitely needs some healing time. And some hoof growth to protect her feet. If it's just bruising (and not founder) then she just needs some time to heal on a forgiving surface. Hopefully the owners will not push her hard.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Phantomcolt18 said:


> I hate to say it(this is going to make me sound SO cold hearted but I swear I am NOT) but my reasons for posting this wasn't to help her because there's nothing I could do. I saw an opportunity for a learning experience and I took it. If I could help her I would but I in reality can't and to be honest it's not my business I just thought it was interesting/scary and wanted to know more about it to prevent it from happening to any of my future horses


Hey, I totally understand that. I have a fascination with hooves and really everything to do with horses. So yes, a learning experience is always good! I took farrier science about 15 years ago and fell in love with the subject, so I have been learning all I can ever since.  (I know just enough to be dangerous, haha). Well, I know just enough to be comfortable trimming my own horses. 

Veterinary and farrier science cases are good learning experiences. I love watching my vet. I think one year he must have wondered what was wrong with me, because every time a horse was castrated in the neighborhood I was there.  (Hey, they were my friends horses and I like to learn from the vet).


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Sorry if this has already been posted, I didn't read all the posts. It sounds strange that a horse went 13 years. Maybe unless it had a neurectomy at least 2x. Sounds like a case of navicular symptoms, not navicular syndrome. Especially since you said she was thin-soled enough to bleed. Lots of horses have navicular symptoms. They'll be sore in the frog area. Around here the vet check for navicular is: wack the frog with a hammer and see if they flinch. Lots of horses get diagnosed with navicular here. 

I'd never put a wedge on a horse with coffin bone rotation, unless they put it on backwards?


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

Amazin- I'm just trying to learn. I'm only going off of what I was told and what I saw/experience with her. 

I love learning new things and I had never heard of this before so thought I'd ask about it ~shrugs~


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

yes maam, I hope my post didn't sound smart-aleck. That's just what I've seen in my experience. Like I said, I didn't read all this but I know navicular is way over-diagnosed. I've seen lots of sure-enough navicular cases, in fact I found and hauled the navicular horses to Mizzou to test Legend, the Bayer medicine for replacing bursal fluid (I think it was). And the REAL cases are hard to find. Navicular horses will alternate pointing their front feet, meaning they'll hold one out front, then switch. With a case like this, from what I read, I'd put a hard pad on those feet to armor-plate them. And put medicated hoof packing under the pad with foam or something at the back so debris doesn't push it's way under the pad


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Why not a softer but thick pad to absorb the concussive force, AC? Concentrated iodine treatments might not be a bad way to go for the sole, though. But not if it's still openly bleeding.


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

Wow some of this is reeally interesting. i think im going to take a hoof analysis course or something of that nature to learn more. it definately couldnt hurt
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

Well my old pick-up horse was one of the ones I hauled up to Columbia for the study. He was bad navicular. The medicine didn't do him any good. So we got him nerved. 2 years later, nerves regenerated and he's lame again. So I started experimenting with different things on him. He was in a pasture, not a stall. I tried rubber pads, leather pads, aluminum wedge shoes, aluminum egg bar wedges, Aluminum egg bars with pads, and no telling what else. He did the best with St. Croix Xtras (wide steel shoes) and flat aluminum pads. They had no give. Actually they were sign material and consisted of 2 thin sheets of aluminum with hard plastic in between. I think anything with cushion allows hard footing (like rocks and frozen mud) to compress and bruise an already-sore foot. But I'm considering the horse being in a pasture and not a soft stall.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

If a person had a shoe with a sole like a tennis shoe, that might be good. Like an inch thick. In theory, I would think it would work better if the ground surface was soft and the hardness increased closer to the foot surface. That way there was still a hard barrier against the hoof to prevent bruising.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I have a mare who has caudal heel pain from a ddft tear but no true navicular disease, and what's worked best for her is a wedged aluminum shoe with a fairly soft pour-in pad over mesh. And my "mystery" navicular gelding is finally shoeing improvement in wedged aluminum eggbars, no pad. But of course they're all different....

I was just wondering if the more immediate problem here wouldn't be the sole soreness/bruising/abscessing/founder and not the navicular.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Interesting, I've always associated soles in that condition with severe founder, but glad to hear that's not the case. So I'm guessing that the weak sole isn't directly caused from the navicular, right? Would it be a direct result of the earlier coffin bone rotation (made worse by the shoe pulling?) or an overall weak hoof due to a combination of internal structure issues and overuse?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

As you well know rofl, I'm not a farrier, but I always pester the hell out of mine and I've seen more than my fair share of hoof and lameness problems.

Laminitis/founder/sinking coffin bone can certainly cause symptoms like that, but an overaggressive farrier, poor nutrition, or bad genetics can lead to a really thin sole situation, too. Bones, for one, is a bit that way. She's never bled, but the few times we experimented with pulling her front shoes she was so lame I did think she was foundering. Just flat out refused to move. Lots of heat in the hoof, too, though she never abscessed. X-rays confirmed a thin sole and a coffin bone that is way too flat or even slightly negatively angled.

I don't see how navicular _disease_ would be related, but navicular symptoms (sensitivity to hoof testers, caudal heel pain) could, I suppose, actually stem from a thin sole issue.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Sounds like it could be possible, especially in her case. Too bad we don't have pictures of her feet, it could be interesting to see what shape they're really in.


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

So far I'm learning which is a good thing haha the more I learn the better.

Gremmy- Wish I could get pictures but I feel like it would be rude to ask. Also they way they get the horses' feet done is if their feet look like they need to be trimmed then they'll call the farrier out. 

(The reason I know most of these details(when farrier is called, when vet is called, and whatnot) is I used to board Phantom there and after I moved him in Oct of 2010 there was a bit of bad blood but I resolved things so we can talk and be happy. So I'm not just pulling assumptions of when the farrier comes out and whatnot out of thin air because I used to deal with it too)
And having personal experience with the farrier I do not trust him. He would trim Phantom's back feet crooked(best way to describe it) and it caused his left foot to turn out and his right foot was just awkwardly shaped. He claimed he couldn't round Phantom's feet out and had to leave them in an asimetrical shape or he"d be lame. After I moved and switched farriers cause I found out he never had proper training my new farrier was able to trim Phantom's feet perfectly and he's never been lame a day.


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Without pictures, we are all just taking a stab in the dark. Horses can NOT bleed around the outer wall. There is no blood supply there. It COULD be bleeding from the white line however which is basically the lamina. this is the line between the wall and the sole. If the horse were over trimmed or really flat, one swipe with a rasp can set it bleeding. Id like to see pictures before I make any more conjecture. This sounds very serious and could certainly be a type of laminitus or lead to serious abscessing that may put the horses life and usefulness at risk.


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## kblakedvm (Nov 13, 2011)

What you are describing sounds like the 'rotation' has gotten much worse - especially if she is laying down all the time. 'Rotation' is another way to say founder or laminitis which is, as you correctly describe, a rotation of the coffin bone from it's normal position parallel with the hoof capsule/hoof wall to a spot which is defined by the horse. In severe cases, it is pointing downwards and may penetrate the sole which is where the bleeding comes from. This can be confirmed with xrays. And a horse can have BOTH navicular issues & founder.


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