# Gelding = attitude change?



## Freemare (Jun 2, 2012)

Every horse will calm down at one point in time after being gelded. However the older the horse the more of a chance for problems with a stallion that is gelded. I work with 3 stallions every day. If the stallion knows his job and knows were his mind is then just treat them like a horse. You just need to more careful if the horse is out with other horses. A stallion can be super nice and cool about everything. One day something sets them off. The best thing is to just start working with him. Even if you were to geld him. He would still think like a stallion. He's been one all of his life. It could take up to 7 years for stallions that old to get out of the mind set.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I think once you socialize him and have some other horses teach him how to behave in a herd, training might be loads easier. Good Luck, hoping for updates from time to time.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have never found that gelding late in life took a horse any longer to settle down.

I gelded a 20 year old that I was giving lessons on in 3 weeks. He was pretty far down the pecking order in a bunch of geldings. We rode him (or, I should sy little children rode him) until he was 33.

I gelded a 9 year old son of Blue Max a few years ago. He was my teasing stallion in the breeding barn and we cut him 3 or 4 weeks before the end we finished checking mares back and he quit teasing before we were ready to quit using him. He had not been ridden in 6 years and had horrible manners when I picked him up at the sale to tease. He broke out great and a lady is riding him as a trail horse.

We have probably have cut more than a dozen horses over 1 and they all were just fine. The worst horse we ever gelded was a 3 year old that was not ever bred. He was mean in a pasture and ran other geldings through fences. He was very well behaved and broke to death under saddle. I sold him because it was too big a pain to always keep him by himself.

We have found it best to turn freshly gelded horses out with mature other geldings in 1 or 2 days when they are still a little under the weather. We have done this for over 40 years. We have never found any difference between young and old stallions being gelding if they were turned right out with other geldings.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A friends horse was gelded at 7, he's 16 now and still acts like a stallion around other horses.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

It depends on the horse- the ones ive seen that were gelded that late in life didnt really know anything different than to act like a stud.. i think the younger the better.

If hes hyper its probably because of the poor training he has got as a race horse-- hes been trained to run- not be a pleasureable riding animal-- gelding him will not fix his training flaws!

If he throws correctly put together foals with a good calm nature- id keep him a stud and market him that way. --my opinion.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

BoldComic said:


> Does anyone think that there is a chance he will be rideable at some point? Has anyone gelded a stallion this old and had him calm down enough to be safe to ride around mares? I'm talking about putting a saddle on him next spring maybe. I'd do some round pen and ground work with him this year. I just can't stand to see him out there alone and unused any longer. He deserves better. My Uncle just wants to take him and the 4 brood mares to an auction and sell them by the pound. I think they deserve better.


I definitely think there is a chance he could be a great riding horse. Do you have some good trainers in your area that have experienced with green horse that has been used as a stallion? I know of multiple horses who were stallions until their early teens, then gelded (sometimes proud cut), and have become phenomenal horses. Some of them however, could not never be left into a field of horses be cause some of those natural stallion instincts were still a dominant behaviour-which some of them you might not ever be able to settle enough.

It would be great to hear a success story come out of this. Good luck!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

We have seen far more problems with horses gelded and kept alone like they were as a stud. 

If stallions are socialized by running with geldings when they are not breeding and if they are run out with geldings right after gelding, they seem to socialize much better. The one I gelded at 20 only kept one stud habit -- his bathroom habits. He always put a pile on top of any other pile and he always urinated on just the right spot. But, he was never staggy or mean. We never run geldings with mares no matter when they were gelded, so they have no encouragement to pay attention to or 'guard' mares.

A neighbor (and very good cowboy) buys every well-bred stud that goes through the local sale. He bought an 8 year old roan Peptoboonsmal son a few weeks ago. He uses my emasculators so I know how many of these things he buys, rides and resells. I've seen him but many studs for $200.00 to $400.00, cut them, go doctor and sort cattle on them a few weeks and sell them for $3500.00 or more at a ranch rodeo or to some other buyer. Quite a few of the studs he buys have had cutting training but just never got finished or made it to the show pen. 

He does just what we do. As a matter of fact, he was working for us when we cut the 9 year old Blue Max son. Just start riding them hard and run them with geldings. I've seen a few of his that were pretty beat up for a week or two after cutting them.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Peptoboonsmal son for 2-400 dollars? *croaks over* im movin to OK!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I was there the night last winter when the Peptoboonsmal horse went through. I think he gave $800.00 for him. He was ugly headed, had no a$$, was poor and beat up all over. I think $1200.00 is the most I have seen him pay.

The $200.00 ones are mostly only being bid on by the killer buyer but they are still pretty well bred. He gave 3 or 400.00 for a Smart Mate son one night but I think he was not sound when he went to riding him. Over half of the horses that go through this sale go straight to Mexico. There are so many well-bred horses in this country that the ones that do not get money earned get pretty cheap. Some nights the traders will pick them up and other nights nobody wants one.

I am borrowing a stud and turning him out with 4 or 5 mares next week. He is a gray son of Super Horse 'Real Gun' out of a Topsail Cody mare. He was given to a friend of mine because he was hurt as a 2 year old and did not get shown. He is a pretty nice horse and a really good mover. I guess that is pretty well bred and pretty cheap. 

This horse is doll headed, real good legged and good boned, has very good feet and overall balance. I would prefer he was deeper in the heartgirth and carrying a little more muscle, but I will run him on very thick built Driftwood bred mares that have a lot of substance and can use a little more refinement and could be a little more quick footed. 

Most of these sale barn horses do not come with a resume. You do not know if they will stay sound or buck your butt off when they get fat. Some end up back at the sale barn. I bought a good looking Peppy San Badger grandson (already gelded) one night. He could buck so hard he could make the stirrups hit each other over the top of the saddle. He made $200.00 when I sold him to a stock contractor. If that had not worked, he was going to lose 2 or $300.00 But, the ones that work out can make a lot of money for a good hand.


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## BoldComic (Feb 26, 2012)

toto said:


> It depends on the horse- the ones ive seen that were gelded that late in life didnt really know anything different than to act like a stud.. i think the younger the better.
> 
> If hes hyper its probably because of the poor training he has got as a race horse-- hes been trained to run- not be a pleasureable riding animal-- gelding him will not fix his training flaws!
> 
> If he throws correctly put together foals with a good calm nature- id keep him a stud and market him that way. --my opinion.


I understand that gelding him won't fix training flaws. I wasn't thinking I could get him cut then put a saddle on him the next day. 

He throws beautiful foals BUT there are so many thoroughbreds out there right now that I can't justify making more. Plus he was only raced to 5 years old and didn't have a chance to win much so no one in the race industry would look twice at him. We've put out adds to sell him over the last year and had no takers. My decision to geld him is mostly to make his life better. I hate seeing him alone in that pasture. He's been there for 10 years. I just didn't know if there was even the possibility of ever riding him.

Thanks for all the replies. I think I'll geld him for sure then take it from there. Worse case is he won't be rideable but will be able to be turned out with the geldings. Great advice to turn him out when he is still feeling a little "under the weather". I'll try that for sure.

Oh I also wanted to say that he is not aggressive. He is pretty well mannered for a stallion who is only handled a couple times a year. We had to move him to the barn yesterday to switch some mares around and he walked really good for hubby who had to walk him by a fence with 2 mares. He hollered but he didn't act up.


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

My question would be why wait? You know it's in his best interest and would make things easier all the way around so do it now. Geld him and get him riding immediately. He'll just be a year older if you wait until next spring. He won't have any herd skills so expect some cuts and scrapes. I've never met an OTTB who had a clue how to act in a herd at the start. 

Hopefully you will be pleasantly surprised with what he does know once you get on him. I have found them easy to retain but they typically have only sat for 3-4 months after finishing their racing careers not 12 years.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

He will be 'proud cut' being gelded that old but sometimes that's a problem and sometimes it isn't. My gelding is proud cut and he's generally easy to work with. He's territorial though and does not tolerate other horses in his food, stall, space etc. but that's the only difference between him and any other gelding.


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## BoldComic (Feb 26, 2012)

Left Hand Percherons said:


> My question would be why wait? You know it's in his best interest and would make things easier all the way around so do it now. Geld him and get him riding immediately. He'll just be a year older if you wait until next spring. He won't have any herd skills so expect some cuts and scrapes. I've never met an OTTB who had a clue how to act in a herd at the start.
> 
> Hopefully you will be pleasantly surprised with what he does know once you get on him. I have found them easy to retain but they typically have only sat for 3-4 months after finishing their racing careers not 12 years.



Sorry I didn't make that more clear. I DO plan on gelding him this year. I just don't plan on riding him this year. I'd like to do some ground work and assess his attitude before climbing on his back. 

All of the horses on the place are TBs. Broods, the stud, some off the track. So thankfully I have a little experience with them. I'm thinking I'll put the two geldings in the pasture next to the stud the day (or so) after he's gelded so they can meet with a fence between them. Then in another day or so I'll put them all together (making sure that all mares are WAAAAY across the property).

I'm not sure at all what I'll get after he's gelded. He may be gentle like his son was or he may be a butt head. Either way, at least we won't have to worry about him getting out and making babies (my grandfather isn't great at getting gates shut  ). Thanks for all the replies guys. I'll post updates on how he does.

His appointment is for June 14th. He'll get his teeth checked/floated too.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

It will take 30 days for the residual testosterone to leave his system. So be careful and treat him like he's still intact for a week or two. Exercise is good for him, but if he's not nice to other horses he needs to stay by himself for a little while after surgery.


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## BoldComic (Feb 26, 2012)

Thank you I will keep that in mind. This is why I'd like to introduce him to the geldings across the fence first. I've never seen him around other horses. He's been across the fence from others when he's gotten out of his pasture but I've never seen him in with others. He didn't fight across the fence though... The last thing I want to do is cause him a problem while healing or risk injury to him or my other horses. My end goal, for this year, would be to have him living with the other 2 geldings by winter and him having really good ground manners.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> He will be 'proud cut' being gelded that old


We simply have not found this to be the case. We have had few proud cut geldings at all and the worst ones we have had were gelded at 2 or younger. There were 3 or 4 that we have had that would actually 'cover' a mare in heat. Two were so bad that we had blood drawn and Testosterone levels checked. We were sure one just had to have a retained testicle as you could hand breed him. Blood levels came back normal. The Vet school we took the one to (Colorado State U.) said that some geldings are just that way and they did not have an explanation for it. That was the last time I have paid for blood tests on any gelding. 



> It will take 30 days for the residual testosterone to leave his system.


This is just not true. When you turn studs in together or turn them in with geldings, their Testosterone levels drop within 48 hours.



> he needs to stay by himself for a little while after surgery.


This is why many horses do not socialize well after gelding. You need to put them together (with no mares) as soon as there is no danger of them bleeding. I had one break open and bleed -- a lot -- when I put them together right away. One day separated seems to work very well.

The old thinking that stallions needed to get the Testosterone out of their blood has been proved a myth. We always thought it was a myth because, like other big ranches, we would run stallions together and with geldings during the fall and winter. Then, a Vet School, (I believe it was Texas A & M) wondered how big ranches could turn all their studs in together when they came out of the pastures in late summer without them killing each other. They went to some of the biggest ranches in Texas and did blood studies. They pulled blood the day they were taken out of the mare herds. They were turned in together and blood taken every 24 hours. They found that Testosterone levels dropped almost to the same level as most geldings within 48 hours. When we have turned them all in together, we have found that within 2 days, our studs quit grunting at each other and acted like a pen of geldings. We have had studs become 'herd-bound' buddies.

Like I said before, the whole key to gelding mature stallions is to geld them and get them in with gelding as quickly as possible, preferably when they are still sore and feeling sorry for themselves. If it is practical, we like to turn them in with geldings before they are cut. Just don't put mares across a fence from them.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

If fighting with others was one of his stallion behaviors, he needs to stay separated for a while to avoid hurting himself.

And, that is not a myth. Gelding surgery does not fix the horse over night.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

It IS a myth. If that were true, big ranches could not turn their studs in together. Big ranches have always handled their studs just like they handled their bulls. They have a stud pasture with no mares across the fence and the studs accept it with little more than a grunt or two. They have barbed wire fences and some of them are not that great. Somehow, the studs being in with other stallions or geldings, drops their Testosterone levels to nearly nothing nearly overnight. Personally, I have known of many stallion being kicked and hurt, but it has always been by a mare and not another stud. This is just like young studs being run together or with geldings. They are 10X easier to handle, manner and train than young stallions that are stalled or penned by themselves.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

If you do a simple google search or talk to any licensed vet you will find that the colt still has residual testosterone for up to 30 days after gelding. I'm not going to argue about this I can't fight ignorance.

To the OP: Gauge him yourself. I've had gelding that were puppy gentle within in a week or two. Others take much longer to change.
Take it one day at a time and see how he does.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

In fact, testosterone is never totally gone from the horse. Testosterone is also produced in the adrenal glands as well.
www.perryvet.com/la/newsletters/2008.10.24.pdf has lots of good info


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## BoldComic (Feb 26, 2012)

Well something interesting happened today. My (slightly crazy these days) grandpa let the two geldings into the pasture next to the stud. I went down this evening to feed and couldn't find the geldings. When I finally did I have to say I was surprised to find them next to Chorro. BUT there was no fighting. He didn't seem to care much about them. There were mares in sight but on the opposite side of the stud pasture. So I guess he wasn't to worried because he was between the geldings and the mares. However, it doesn't look like he's aggressive or a fighter. 

Testosterone high or low I'll be keeping a close eye on him. The last thing I want is injured horses. I'll update with how things go after the big snip in a couple of weeks.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Sounds like he will be fine. Some stallions are, some are not. Watch him close for a while. Exercise is good for him after gelding but a whole lot of hard running and bucking could cause a problem.


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## BoldComic (Feb 26, 2012)

In the past we've just walked our newly gelded horses on a lead for 10 min or so a couple of times a day. I am hoping to be able to do the same with him. Right now we've moved the geldings to a pasture next to the stud but with a 10' "no mans land" between them. Hopefully just seeing and getting used to their presence will help him adjust to being with them after being gelded. He also seems to really enjoy the company as he spends a lot of time on that side of the pasture rather than the other side staring at the mares across the way.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

6gun Kid said:


> In fact, testosterone is never totally gone from the horse. Testosterone is also produced in the adrenal glands as well.


: ) Explains why those geldings are still "guys" doesn't it!

This is such an interesting thread. I don't and never plan to have a stallion but this is fascinating nevertheless.

OP...I hope this guys turns out to be a pleasure for you. He will be happy to have friends, I'm sure.


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## BoldComic (Feb 26, 2012)

So this stud was recently injured (see post about t-post skewer for details) and I've been using that injury as a head start for some ground work. Chorro is feeling kinda down on his luck so he's pretty docile and I'm using that to my advantage. The vet cleared us for exercise everyday and today was our first day in the round pen. I had him walk 20 times in each direction today and it went really well. He can see some mares from the round pen but he didn't act up even with them calling him. He did try to cut through the middle a couple of times but I pushed him back out and he did as I asked. I feel pretty good now about gelding him and having him be decent. After working with him for the last week he has never shown aggression at me or the other horses. Granted he has been a little sore but he feels good enough to trot up and down his run so he can't be hurting that bad anymore. He goes in to be gelded in 6 days and I think I'm going to do a "member blog" on here about him/me and our progress. With pictures of course!


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