# laying a horse down?



## CLaPorte432

I taught my horse to lay down when he was a long yearling. I had completed all of our ground work and he was tremendously bored with doing the same things over and over.

He now shakes, bows and lies down. It's a real hoot at horse shows. He doesn't panic and freak out, even with other horses around that he doesn't know. They are a safe distance away and people love his trick. I can go over a year without doing it and he still remembers his commands.

I don't do it very often because I think it can wear on the body. Another thing I use it for is emergencies. What if he injures himself, like a broken leg? I can safely lay him down without fear of further injuring him.

And, he's tall and I'm short. If I don't have a way to get on him, I can always lay him down and mount that way. And yes, I've had to do it.

Don't even attempt it unless you know what you are doing. You can get seriously injured.


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## Ian McDonald

There's a good article in this month's Western Horseman on the subject.


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## Foxhunter

When a horse is lying down it is in its most vulnerable position. A horse that is forced down in the wild, by a big cat or wolves is on its way to death. There will be a fight but once down the horse will wait for the inevitable.

An Australian horseman, Paul Williams, working in the far east with TBs for racing uses what he calls 'The Tap' to put horses down on the ground to get them to trust him. He uses no ropes just his knack of doing this, and then once the horse is down he fusses with it and keeps petting it. He can walk away and the horse stays down. Once up the horse is a different character.


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## usandpets

Sorry Foxhunter, but what Paul does is what most would consider "breaking the horses spirit" or just plain making it submissive, not building trust. He doesn't use ropes but he does use the reins. Using pain or pressure in the horses mouth to get the horse to lay down is plain and simple forcing the horse down. The horse may have a change in attitude or behavior but it's not from trust. He's just forced the horse to be submissive. 

If you teach the horse to lay down on command, that would be a different story. You already would have the horses trust and respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel

I just.. don't see a reason for it. Trust can be built in other ways but I do like CLaPorte's reasoning about being able to prevent a horse from hurting itself by laying him down. That could come in handy as much as teaching a horse to stand instead of fight barbed wire. 

I agree with usandpets, though. Teaching a horse to lay down is a lot different than forcing it down. Teaching takes patience, respect, and a lot of trust too. Forcing just takes brawn and no other way out, imop :/ My horse would die trying to escape than give in.. some horses don't take well to that at all.


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## boxer

Not a fan of laying a horse down for 'submission' at all. As already said it breaks the horses spirit. The guy in that video is using force, the whole video smacks of a nasty attitude and there is nothing about respect in that method, where is his respect for the horse! His poor mouth  I'm Australian and I have never even heard of that guy.

I agree that teaching a horse to do it is something quite different.


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## mls

Trey Young did a fantastic job of showing how to lay a horse down at the MN Horse Expo.

May be worth checking to see if anyone put a video out on YouTube.


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## AnnaHalford

Horses are prey animals. We all know this. Being prey animals, they know - they are absolutely genetically certain - that their destiny is to finish up in the claws of a tiger. This method can - not always, but can - help a horse overcome its reactions and accept previously-terrifying things.
The point is that once a horse thinks that the end is nigh, and the end doesn't happen, then the horse is perplexed. Given time, it will actually start to think about the thing that was scaring it, rather than just reacting to it. 
There are many ways of getting a horse to lie down: some ways are gentle, some ways are harsh, some ways are a bit screwy. But the idea is not to traumatise the horse into lying down. For that matter, it doesn't even have to be lying down - just convinced that it can't get away. It's the principle that helps Rarey hobbles to work. 
It is not a cure-all, and done wrongly can be the cause of many other problems. But it can help to desensitise a horse to something that's worrying it, just as it can be a useful skill for the horse for safety-related reasons...


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## OwnedByAlli

Im undecided on the whole laying down thing, but i can see where it comes in useful and why trainers could want to use that technique. 

The posted video however, scared me a little. Firstly I was under the impression laying a horse down saddled was a no incase he rolled onto the saddle, either crushing the saddle or his spine; whichever gave first. And the bridle seens like a bad idea too... too many straps to get caught up in... I did see a very good video on youtube where the trainer explained why he was doing it, how you should not do it and why its not a method to use lightly. He did it with ropes and in a way that was asking the horse down, not forcing it. Ill see it i can find it...





 
its long but i found it informative


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## candandy49

This may not be in direct correlation to subject matter, but it may well be in fact. I had never trained my QH mare to lay down or forced her to do it and remain quiet while she was down.

A number of years ago after a full morning and early afternoon of her and I riding the roads upon returning home I first untacked her and let her cool out before I turned her into her run-in and stock panel corral/paddock. I then came into the house to change clothes and upon passing the kitchen window I looked out and she had laid down to roll alarmingly to close to a panel. I said out loud to myself, "Oh don't roll completely over". Well, sure enough she did exactally that and all four of her legs were sticking out skyward from the tubular panel and she was on her side. Of course, I was home by myself so I had to react to the situation. Half dressed I first started out at a full run out the door and as I got closer I slowed to a walk talking to her in a calm manner to keep her from panicking which I was so scared of happening. She could have very easily broken all four of her legs in a struggle of panic. When I got to her without even thinking I climbed over her midsection to the space between her front and back legs and tried pulling each of her legs out of the panel, but as soon as I did one leg another would go back up skyward. I then climbed back over her midsection to disconnect the panel at both ends and with an adrenaline rush raised that panel and literally hung it in a tree just outside the pen. I then went to her head and asked her to get up. She was still hung by her shoes to an old neighboring thin wired fence line. So I went to find some fence cutters. I cut fencing after climbing back over her midsection to free up her hooves. I then asked her again to get up and she sure enough did. I checked her for injuries she might have sustained, but she only had some red paint on one of her hooves from a rub of a paint from a panel. This is a factual happening *and that's the truth*. If it had been most or some other horse I could very easily been kicked to death.


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## kitten_Val

mls said:


> Trey Young did a fantastic job of showing how to lay a horse down at the MN Horse Expo.


I've seen Tommy Turvey to do it at the Expo as well as trick training, and it was gentle and the whole approach made sense (and horse was NOT scared or traumatized).

I think there is a difference here if we are talking about "submission" vs "trick training". 

With _trick training_ you better have trust and basic training in place, so horse is mentally ready for what is asked. While it's not something I'd care about myself, I think it's quite cool when people teach their horses to do that (whether it for easier mount or just for fun for both sides). 

As for _submission_, I do NOT consider it as a good technique unless it's the _very last resort_ for the horse. To me it's a substitution of the time and patience a trainer should take when working with the horse. 

P.S. I knew the "trainer" in my area who did that "lay down" to EVERY horse he got in training. It did look ugly, and after his "training" (he trained under the saddle) I personally wouldn't mount the horse (all I've seen were bucking off the owners when he was done :shock: ).


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## Cherie

I used to lay horses down (or in some cases, let them 'throw' themselves. These were not horses that needed to learn to 'trust' someone. These were not horses that needed time and patience and a 'light' hand. These were 'killers'. These were what many call 'rogue' horses. These were horses that attacked people, would grind their teeth and had 'blood in their eye'.

Do you know what is being referred to as an animal with 'blood in its eye'? It is when a horse is so mad and viscous that its eyes actually have small blood vessels break (or so I have been told) and their eyes literally turn blood red. They will grind their teeth. They will hurt themselves to get to someone. It is not a personal thing with them. They will attack anyone who gets withing reach or even close to within reach.

Did anyone see the movie about Buck Brannaman? That stud that he told the owners who spoiled him and did not geld him to "put the horse down". He was not half as bad as some of the horses I took in. He would have been one of the 'ease' ones to 'turn around'. 

Some people get the idea that horses get that mean because they have been abused. I can only think of one stallion I took in to 'fix' that had been abused and he had not been abused as badly as a lot of horses I have dealt with. Most had just had people back up at the wrong time. They were very dominant horses by nature that would have been the 'herd boss' in ANY herd situation they were in. Most were studs, but I have been brought mares and a couple of geldings that were that mean -- or close to it. The studs were probably the worst ones I can think of -- but they had testosterone giving them greater strength and determination. 

The thing is with 'horse herds', a dominant horse 'teaches' all of the others to offer NO PUSH BACK. Every time the boss horse looks their way, they back up or turn away. They know better than to ever offer any 'push back' toward that very dominant 'boss horse'. So, the boss horse does not have to do any further disciplining toward that horse that is lower on the 'pecking order'. That horse knows its place every day. He never offers any body language that challenges the boss horse. Both are very happy with the arrangement. 

Now, the problem comes when a very dominant horse tries to put the person interacting with him 'in his proper place' -- the place well below the boss horse's place. One time, the person obeys them and 'backs off' or literally 'backs up' The next time this human idiot (in the horse's view) has the audacity to try to tell that horse what to do. Plainly, this dumb person needs to be shown where his place is (again in the horse's view).

Some idealists here on this forum may not like the idea of anyone saying "A horse should be submissive!", but I can tell you from experience that a very dominant horse needs to be submissive and needs to accept people as being 'higher than them on the pecking order'. Several of the horses I took in to try to teach this to had already put people in the hospital. Four of them had nearly killed at least one person. Two of them had maimed people -- one maimed its owner and the other maimed the second trainer it had been brought to. 

The first one was an 11 year old stallion that the people had raised and stood at stud for several years. He progressively got meaner and meaner until he attacked his owner, broke every bone in her face, knocked one eye out and required more than a dozen surgeries to even put any kind of face back together for her. 

The other one attacked his trainer when he dismounted to lead him out of a solid sided little round 'breaking' pen. He repeatedly attacked and pawed this man, broke his femur and caused the fractured bone to came through his skin and his Jeans. He would have been killed on the spot if there had not been a single board missing on the bottom of his pen and he pulled himself out under it with his hands while the horse was still pawing and biting him. He was barely able to walk with a cane or crutches years later when I saw him.

These horses did 180* turn-arounds after being laid down -- a couple of them were put into 4-way hobbles and subsequently threw themselves down so were down -- just got there a different way -- result was the same.

For some reason unknown to man (as we are 'hooked up' differently), putting a horse down on the ground really 'messes with their minds'. Restraints, like 4-way hobbles, messes with their minds quite a bit, but nothing like laying one all the way down. I have never it do anything like that I would call 'breaking a horse's spirit'. If breaking his spirit is what you want to call, taking one from from wanting to kill you to wanting to learn and train like any other horse, then you are welcome to call it what you like.

Most people who want to give human emotions and use terms that compare human qualities like 'get bored', be 'bratty', 'needs to let his personality come through' just have not observed enough horses put pressure on each other and do not understand how a horse responds and how a horse reacts to different situations. 

Two things every horse wants/likes is 'sameness' and to 'know where their place is'. They do not want the rules to change in mid-game. They love doing the same thing every day if it comes with no pressure. They will do anything to get a person to release pressure. 

Every one of the vicious horses I took in to attempt to teach acceptable interaction with people were headed to slaughter. The first one I worked with taught me a lot and I finally got it safe to ride and train. That seemed to be very counter-productive. I got a reputation for being able to 'fix' rogue horses. This was not a good thing, but at that time I thought I could 'save' them all. Now, I would probably ship most of them to Mexico or tell their owners to. Back then, there were not as many good horses and part of it was I was trying to 'prove' myself. But, I DID find out that when one threw himself and could not get up, when you let him up, he though I was god. After that, when I had a rogue horse, I put them in 3-way or 4-way hobbles and often that alone changed their attitude. If it did not, then, I laid them down. 

Years later I read about John Rarey and a rogue stallion named Cruiser. I found out that he experienced the vary same thing and that was how he rehabilitated vicious horses. His story about Cruiser sounded like several of the horses I trained. 

Until a person has dealt with several vicious horses that were on the


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## rookie

I don't know about the technique. It just seems like if the goal is to desensitize, gain trust and not stress the horse out then this is working in the opposite direction. I might be old fashion but what happened to good old quality time spent with the horse, gaining trust slowly? There is a element of trust in a horse lying down when you approach it, but forcing a horse to lie down or trick training a lie down I don't understand. I know people can regard it as a benefit in an emergency situation. I find that an interesting idea; however, in the hundreds of trail miles I have ridden when I have been in an emergency situation with a rider we called an ambulance instead of risking putting the injured person back on the horse. That was always a safety thing.
I always hear lying a horse down mentioned in the vein of natural horsemanship, which in my humble opinion is only as good as the people using it. I know some great people who use natural horsemanship but I have also seen some horses ruined or nearly ruined by poorly used natural horsemanship. In addition, some natural horsemanship is just common horse-sense being rebranded and marketed. I will end that rant now. So, I am just trying to judge my bias on the issue, to see if being leery of this technique is just me being prejudice or if my reservations are shared.


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## CLaPorte432

Well, I can vouch for my horses trusting me and I certainly didn't force them to do it. I spend the "good old fashion time" with them. All the horses I currently have, I've owned since they were a very young age. Jasper since he was 1, Nutmegg since he was 3 months and Chilly since she was 7 months. If anyone has spent time connecting with their horses, it has been me because when they are that young, what else can you do with them? LoL.

Anyways, regarding the gelding that I taught to lay down. He is the type of horse that never lays down. He doesn't roll or spend time on his belly sunbathing as my other horses do. He is typically the one standing "guard" while the rest are taking a nap. There have been times I have walked out to the pasture while the other horses are laying down. And when I do, he lays down and takes a load off and relaxes. 

Coincidence? Maybe...

But I like to think that that's a nice correlation between the trust that we have and the confidence that he puts in me as the "herd leader" to where he can take his time to lay down or have a good roll. When I walk away, he gets up.

I did not teach him to lay down because I wanted to force him down and teach him a lesson or because he had trust issues or whatever. He had all his groundwork done and was bored to the point where he started to get not pay attention to me. His brain is like a sponge, I blame that on his Spanish Mustang half... *rolls eyes* So I taught him tricks...


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## Foxhunter

usandpets said:


> Sorry Foxhunter, but what Paul does is what most would consider "breaking the horses spirit" or just plain making it submissive, not building trust. He doesn't use ropes but he does use the reins. Using pain or pressure in the horses mouth to get the horse to lay down is plain and simple forcing the horse down. The horse may have a change in attitude or behavior but it's not from trust. He's just forced the horse to be submissive.
> 
> If you teach the horse to lay down on command, that would be a different story. You already would have the horses trust and respect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Sorry, I disagree with you 100%.

Yes the horse is made to yield to the pressure to get it down, where, once down from an outside force it is expecting to die and this doesn't happen it is going to respect the person who was in the position to kill it but instead offered it soothing.

You need to look at the situation - there are more horses bred in Japan than there are places in training. Paul starts them very quickly by using The Tap, his turnover is therefore greater and the horses he send into training are well ridden and confident.
There was a video of him with a chestnut colt that was, when he started, very bargey and obstreperous. He laid it down, it got up so he put it down again, this time it stayed there. He then rode it and at the end dismounted and just as if he had done Join Up the horse followed him like a dog.
If the horse had its spirit broken then it would be depressed - the next day this colt was bouncy but respectful - certainly not a 'broken spirited' animal.

The Tap is not a method I would use to start a horse but it is a method I would use if the horse was overtly 'difficult'.

*Cherie* has experienced some dangerous horses, as I have and, believe us both, if throwing them on the ground solves the problem then it is far better than being maimed or killed.


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## COWCHICK77

I have thrown horses and I have laid horses down. Both done correctly and knowing what situation applies for what method is key. People that don't know how to do it or just get mad and don't know any other options and flop one down are the ones that can ruin a horse quick. But I promise those are the kind of people who can ruin a horse no matter what they do because they don't know enough but think they do.



If you want to read about the science of what actually happens in a horses brain when laying a horse down I suggest reading the article in the May Western Horseman.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boxer

I do agree with the use of laying down as Cherie described it, as an absolute last resort for a seriously dangerous horse. If the horse is dangerous and the next step is slaughter then yes it can be tried. I don't agree a horse should be started using it. I also agree that far too many people do not understand the horse and the way it behaves in a herd. I agree that a horse should see you as the most dominant. My little filly was allowed to walk all over her old owners and so had to be put in her place a fair bit when she got here, I was able to do this by making her move her feet as she had not got to a point where she was dangerous, just disrespectful. I have a very good bond with my mare, this took a good 1.5 years of ground work everyday to form as she too is a dominant mare, now she has it firmly in her head that I am dominant over her she has become super quiet and affectionate with me, whereas she used to hate scratches, cuddles etc. I think this is because she no longer questions my authority, ever.


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## Marecare

I started to teach my horses to lay down but I got tired and had to take a break.


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## versatilityhorsetraining

Laying a horse down can simply be another way of building confidence, suggesting a awkward situation to build greater trust or like a few others have pointed out to change a horses line of thought. However, doing it smart is the way to go. Why you would do it one a hard based road is beyond me. The video that foxhunter posted was not only of a man that lacked common sense but his overall ability to handle horses is lacking thereof.


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## Skyseternalangel

Cherie said:


> I used to lay horses down (or in some cases, let them 'throw' themselves. These were not horses that needed to learn to 'trust' someone. These were not horses that needed time and patience and a 'light' hand. These were 'killers'. These were what many call 'rogue' horses. These were horses that attacked people, would grind their teeth and had 'blood in their eye'.



Yep that's basically the only sound reason to force a horse to lay down. Otherwise, no way.

CLaPorte has it right, just takes trust but should not be forced otherwise unless there's a pretty darn good reason.

That's my opinion anyway.


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## Ian McDonald

COWCHICK77 said:


> I have thrown horses and I have laid horses down. Both done correctly and knowing what situation applies for what method is key. People that don't know how to do it or just get mad and don't know any other options and flop one down are the ones that can ruin a horse quick. But I promise those are the kind of people who can ruin a horse no matter what they do because they don't know enough but think they do.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to read about the science of what actually happens in a horses brain when laying a horse down I suggest reading the article in the May Western Horseman.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I just got done re-reading it. Really enjoy Martin Black's empirical/cerebral approach to horses. 

Did you ever come across any that laying down didn't 'work' on?


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## versatilityhorsetraining

Everything I have laid down has gained something from it.


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## COWCHICK77

Ian McDonald said:


> I just got done re-reading it. Really enjoy Martin Black's empirical/cerebral approach to horses.
> 
> Did you ever come across any that laying down didn't 'work' on?


I thought it was a great article.
Like VHT said, every horse I have used it on, I have seen a change or an improvement. But like I said before, it really depends on the situation and knowing when and how to do it. I was lucky enough to be taught by some old timers that had been using using it for many years. I have also been taught by an old Florida cracker to start colts using that method. It had been said eariler that they don't like that method for starting colts, it is effective. It is not about "breaking his spirit"...that is a uneducated thought about this method, however that may be a result from uneducated persons using the method. These same colts that were started using this method were tough, brave ranch horses that were competive in a show pen as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald

COWCHICK77 said:


> I thought it was a great article.
> Like VHT said, every horse I have used it on, I have seen a change or an improvement. But like I said before, it really depends on the situation and knowing when and how to do it. I was lucky enough to be taught by some old timers that had been using using it for many years. I have also been taught by an old Florida cracker to start colts using that method. It had been said eariler that they don't like that method for starting colts, it is effective. It is not about "breaking his spirit"...that is a uneducated thought about this method, however that may be a result from uneducated persons using the method. These same colts that were started using this method were tough, brave ranch horses that were competive in a show pen as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Interesting. So did the old cracker do it with all of the colts? Laying down is a concept I've fallen in and out of love with a few times and done with some of my horses but more of an occasional experimental thing than anything consistent. I do keep returning to it in my thoughts though, and considering making it a regular part of the program. It seems to me to be equivalent to rolling a dog over, in that it's something that I might not necessarily do all the time but want to have the ability to utilize when it seems like the thing to do.


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## versatilityhorsetraining

I love to have the ability to "let" a horse lay down. The way I do it does not require my cranking them around, or pulling on their head. I put them in a position that lets them hunt it. Once they have laid down all the pressure is released and I rub them down and really let them relax. They can get up when they want (just means I get to ask them to do it again) ..... Once this becomes routine, I can build on it any way I want. I can desensitize, I can mess with their feet, you name it. After it is easy to lay them down, I just throw it into the mix here and there, to see that it is still there. If you know how to do it, and your not causing physical or mental stress, what is the downside? The more I can do with my horses; the more I can do with my horses.


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## usandpets

Foxhunter said:


> Sorry, I disagree with you 100%.
> 
> Yes the horse is made to yield to the pressure to get it down, where, once down from an outside force it is expecting to die and this doesn't happen it is going to respect the person who was in the position to kill it but instead offered it soothing.
> 
> You need to look at the situation - there are more horses bred in Japan than there are places in training. Paul starts them very quickly by using The Tap, his turnover is therefore greater and the horses he send into training are well ridden and confident.
> There was a video of him with a chestnut colt that was, when he started, very bargey and obstreperous. He laid it down, it got up so he put it down again, this time it stayed there. He then rode it and at the end dismounted and just as if he had done Join Up the horse followed him like a dog.
> If the horse had its spirit broken then it would be depressed - the next day this colt was bouncy but respectful - certainly not a 'broken spirited' animal.
> 
> The Tap is not a method I would use to start a horse but it is a method I would use if the horse was overtly 'difficult'.
> 
> *Cherie* has experienced some dangerous horses, as I have and, believe us both, if throwing them on the ground solves the problem then it is far better than being maimed or killed.


That's fine that you disagree. It's also fine if you want to believe that horses think "This predator made me lay down but since he didn't eat me, I'll be his friend." Let's say someone kidnaps or takes you hostage at gun point, but they tell you "I'm not going to hurt you." Are you going to think, "Oh, okay then. Everything is fine and dandy. I guess I can trust this person." Not likely. 

Laying a horse down with force does work. It's been done for many years. It just messes with their head. That's why when they get back up, they don't act the same. If they did, guess what? They get laid back down again. Is there a better way? Yes and it's actually working with the horse. Is it as quick? No. 

I didn't say that it should never be used. I think it should only be used as a last resort and not as a way of starting horses. Why does Paul do it? Like you said, he has many horses to start. Does he need to build a foundation of training with the horse? Not really. He just needs to get them so they can be worked with and to be able to ride. To me, it's a short cut to training. It doesn't matter how many horses he has trained or how many he sent off and went on to be great horses. What matters is that he promotes "the tap" as the fix all. Did you know that he also starts many horses at only 18 months old? Maybe that's ok because they are just destined for the racetrack. He's such a great guy though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

Ian McDonald said:


> Interesting. So did the old cracker do it with all of the colts? Laying down is a concept I've fallen in and out of love with a few times and done with some of my horses but more of an occasional experimental thing than anything consistent. I do keep returning to it in my thoughts though, and considering making it a regular part of the program. It seems to me to be equivalent to rolling a dog over, in that it's something that I might not necessarily do all the time but want to have the ability to utilize when it seems like the thing to do.


Yes, he started all of his colts that way. They were all turned out and untouched until two to be horses. They were brought in halter broke, laid down and started. They were tough, brave horses that you could go gather cattle on within a couple of rides. They become competitive in the cutting pen and awesome rope horses.

My husband and I did an experiment on bunch of colts we had to start. They were untouched horses ranging from two to five years old. Half we laid down, half not. The horses we laid down progressed faster in training and were less likely to be over reactive in a stressful or scary situation. Makes sense to me. I don't start all my horses that way but I started Stilts using that method and I believe it contributed to his outcome, the best horse I have ever owned. 



usandpets said:


> That's fine that you disagree. It's also fine if you want to believe that horses think "This predator made me lay down but since he didn't eat me, I'll be his friend." Let's say someone kidnaps or takes you hostage at gun point, but they tell you "I'm not going to hurt you." Are you going to think, "Oh, okay then. Everything is fine and dandy. I guess I can trust this person." Not likely.
> 
> Laying a horse down with force does work. It's been done for many years. It just messes with their head. That's why when they get back up, they don't act the same. If they did, guess what? They get laid back down again. Is there a better way? Yes and it's actually working with the horse. Is it as quick? No.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say that it should never be used. I think it should only be used as a last resort and not as a way of starting horses. Why does Paul do it? Like you said, he has many horses to start. Does he need to build a foundation of training with the horse? Not really. He just needs to get them so they can be worked with and to be able to ride. To me, it's a short cut to training. It doesn't matter how many horses he has trained or how many he sent off and went on to be great horses. What matters is that he promotes "the tap" as the fix all. Did you know that he also starts many horses at only 18 months old? Maybe that's ok because they are just destined for the racetrack. He's such a great guy though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not trying to convince you that this is the best method in the world, but I am going to paraphrase from the WH article maybe it will enlighten and give you a different perspective on what actually occurs in the horses brain...

*"There is a structure deep in the horse's brain called the amygdala. It is involved in fear responses. The amygdala is connected to the hypothalamus, which acts like a thermostat to reset the nervous system after the amygdala responds.

So when one part of the horse's brain reacts with a fear response, another part releases chemicals to bring the brain back to a balanced state.

Typically when we work a horse we gradually stimulate the amygdala, then allow the hypothalamus to reset the nervous system. The process is called 'down regulation'. In other words, it takes more stimulation to get the same reaction fro the horse.

Think 'desensitization' and you have the horseman's word for 'down regulation'.

Laying a horse down produces an enormous fear reaction because it puts the horse in a vulnerable position. If all goes well, chemicals released in the brain by the 'thermostat' will reset the nervous system so that it begins to take much more to cause a fear reaction.

People see a profound change in the horse when it has been laid down properly because it has been so down regulated that most lesser experiences no longer produce fear responses." 
*


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## Foxhunter

usandpets said:


> That's fine that you disagree. It's also fine if you want to believe that horses think "This predator made me lay down but since he didn't eat me, I'll be his friend." Let's say someone kidnaps or takes you hostage at gun point, but they tell you "I'm not going to hurt you." Are you going to think, "Oh, okay then. Everything is fine and dandy. I guess I can trust this person." Not likely.
> 
> *Then you have never heard of Stockholm Syndrome? This is when hostages start to have empathy with their captors.*
> 
> Laying a horse down with force does work. It's been done for many years. It just messes with their head. That's why when they get back up, they don't act the same. If they did, guess what? They get laid back down again. Is there a better way? Yes and it's actually working with the horse. Is it as quick? No.
> 
> *My point, it is better that horses are started this way when there is little time, by someone like Paul - who is a fantastic rider - than sent to be on the dinner plate. *
> 
> I didn't say that it should never be used. I think it should only be used as a last resort and not as a way of starting horses. Why does Paul do it? Like you said, he has many horses to start. Does he need to build a foundation of training with the horse? Not really. He just needs to get them so they can be worked with and to be able to ride. To me, it's a short cut to training. It doesn't matter how many horses he has trained or how many he sent off and went on to be great horses. What matters is that he promotes "the tap" as the fix all. Did you know that he also starts many horses at only 18 months old? Maybe that's ok because they are just destined for the racetrack. He's such a great guy though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*Unfortunately that is all part of racing. 
Personally I would rather send a young horse to Paul than to Parreli or Anderson.
There are other videos whereby he is handling problem horses without using The Tap. 
*


----------



## Marecare

Ahh,

Patty Hurst.

Some of my best work.


----------



## versatilityhorsetraining

Foxhunter said:


> *Unfortunately that is all part of racing.
> Personally I would rather send a young horse to Paul than to Parreli or Anderson.
> There are other videos whereby he is handling problem horses without using The Tap.
> *


I would be interested to know what you see at the one minute mark on the video you posted? Also I am curious to know why you would send this man a horse to train?


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## Foxhunter

I did not say that I _would _send a horse to him - I said I would rather send him a horse than Parreli or Anderson. 
The reason for that is that he rides a darn sight better then the other two.

At i minute in the video the horse stood on his foot because it had never been taught to lead or respect people.

I prefer the way that Paul lays a horse down to using ropes. I would not use this method unless it was a last resort but I do understand why he does it.

I have worked within the racing industry, both with jump racers and flat horses, in the UK. Many colts, even at the age of 18 months are terribly obstreperous and regardless of what training you put on them, will 'forget' when it is convenient to them and throw themselves around.
A lot of the 'lads' who work within the racing industry are not the best of riders or handlers and either get very rough or the horse just gets away with it. 

All good trainers have one thing in common and that is the confidence that they can master the problem - that is 80% of the problem sorted.


----------



## versatilityhorsetraining

Foxhunter said:


> I did not say that I _would _send a horse to him - I said I would rather send him a horse than Parreli or Anderson.
> The reason for that is that he rides a darn sight better then the other two.
> 
> At i minute in the video the horse stood on his foot because it had never been taught to lead or respect people.
> 
> I prefer the way that Paul lays a horse down to using ropes. I would not use this method unless it was a last resort but I do understand why he does it.
> 
> I have worked within the racing industry, both with jump racers and flat horses, in the UK. Many colts, even at the age of 18 months are terribly obstreperous and regardless of what training you put on them, will 'forget' when it is convenient to them and throw themselves around.
> A lot of the 'lads' who work within the racing industry are not the best of riders or handlers and either get very rough or the horse just gets away with it.
> 
> All good trainers have one thing in common and that is the confidence that they can master the problem - that is 80% of the problem sorted.


Fair enough, you did use the term rather. 

At a minute the horse stood on his foot because he handles horses like a very uneducated individual. If you watch the video again and pause it at the one second mark you can see that he extends his arm toward the horse. Trying to keep him out of his space. Taking away all of his leverage, and ability to control the horses feet. So he got himself stepped on because of it. So he got mad at the horse because it probably did not feel good. So he lays him down. He cranks him into a bind and exerts a lot of pressure on this horses mouth. It does get him to lay down, but the location that he does this amazes me, right on that hard packed road. The roundpen in the background was really obvious to me. I bet that sand would not of hindered the mental change of that horse. Then again he binds that horse up exerting more pressure on the mouth, the horses does not lay down this time though, even though he applied the same pressure and put the horse in the same position. We did not want him to lay down again I guess? I do not know why I would use logic though at this time beings it has been absent the whole time that the camera was on. 

Lets talk about the change though.... the horse did make the change from rearing up and striking to walking around. However the colt did not seem "rogue" at all; he did want to go play though (probably kept in a stall all hopped on on high protein)... Another human induced issue, but not acceptable behavior none the less. The change in his attitude did not appear to be from him laying down, more from the physical exertion from trying to fight to stay on his feet. 

As far as the horses losing track of what they have been taught, the discipline has little to do with it. To much time in a confined space with large amounts of high energy inducing food. I would go crazy too; without things to do.


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## christopher

usandpets said:


> Sorry Foxhunter, but what Paul does is what most would consider "breaking the horses spirit" or just plain making it submissive, not building trust. He doesn't use ropes but he does use the reins. Using pain or pressure in the horses mouth to get the horse to lay down is plain and simple forcing the horse down. The horse may have a change in attitude or behavior but it's not from trust. He's just forced the horse to be submissive.
> 
> If you teach the horse to lay down on command, that would be a different story. You already would have the horses trust and respect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


so you can't have a submissive horse, and you can't put pressure on the horse?

i've been doing it all wrong.


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## usandpets

christopher said:


> so you can't have a submissive horse, and you can't put pressure on the horse?
> 
> i've been doing it all wrong.


Yes you can have a horse that is submissive and you can use pressure on the horse. You just don't use excessive force to make the horse submissive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets

Foxhunter said:


> I did not say that I _would _send a horse to him - I said I would rather send him a horse than Parreli or Anderson.
> The reason for that is that he rides a darn sight better then the other two.


So if someone is a great or even a good rider, that makes them a good trainer? I guess I learned something new today. I'll have to learn how to ride great then I'll be a good trainer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie

Several years ago, I have had quite a bit of correspondence with Paul. In my book he is a good trainer and is a good rider. I am not saying he is a good trainer because he uses the 'tap'. I say he is a good trainer because he has trained hundreds of Race horses on 3 continents, and like myself, (whether it is good or bad) has a reputation for being able to break and train and get horses to the track to race successfully that several other trainers before him failed to even get started. 

So, his ability speaks for itself. When you can successfully get horses safely to do the job they were bred and raised for when other trainers have given up on them and wanted to send them straight to slaughter, you must be doing something right.

The record stands for itself. You don't have to like the methods, but I'll bet fewer have been injured in training accidents than are injured when horses are futilly fighting a trainer that uses traditional methods when those methods are clearly not working on a particular horse. 

If I were in Japan and owned a very difficult race-bred horse, he is the first person I would look up to send it to.


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## Foxhunter

versatilityhorsetraining said:


> Fair enough, you did use the term rather.
> 
> At a minute the horse stood on his foot because he handles horses like a very uneducated individual.
> 
> *I agree with you but and it is a big BUT, the people handling this horse are mostly fairly clueless on handling fit young horses. Had he done things as he would when handling a horse as it should be, the chances are that the horse would not have been so ill mannered. *
> 
> 
> If you watch the video again and pause it at the one second mark you can see that he extends his arm toward the horse. Trying to keep him out of his space. Taking away all of his leverage, and ability to control the horses feet. So he got himself stepped on because of it. So he got mad at the horse because it probably did not feel good.
> 
> *Totally disagree - he diod not get mad, he remained totally calm - if he was mad then his reaction would be to get after the horse at that instant. I bet his heart never changed for a beat.*
> 
> So he lays him down. He cranks him into a bind and exerts a lot of pressure on this horses mouth. It does get him to lay down, but the location that he does this amazes me, right on that hard packed road. The roundpen in the background was really obvious to me. I bet that sand would not of hindered the mental change of that horse. Then again he binds that horse up exerting more pressure on the mouth, the horses does not lay down this time though, even though he applied the same pressure and put the horse in the same position. We did not want him to lay down again I guess? I do not know why I would use logic though at this time beings it has been absent the whole time that the camera was on.
> *The horse did go into the half tap though.*
> 
> Lets talk about the change though.... the horse did make the change from rearing up and striking to walking around. However the colt did not seem "rogue" at all; he did want to go play though (probably kept in a stall all hopped on on high protein)... Another human induced issue, but not acceptable behavior none the less. The change in his attitude did not appear to be from him laying down, more from the physical exertion from trying to fight to stay on his feet.
> 
> *The fact that the horse was hyped up on high concentrated diet and worked to be fit, as are majority of racehorses, plus the fact that as I have said, a lot of the lads caring for the horse are not capable of handling a dead donkey, means that a horse has to be trained to respect all people.*
> 
> As far as the horses losing track of what they have been taught, the discipline has little to do with it. To much time in a confined space with large amounts of high energy inducing food. I would go crazy too; without things to do.


*I agree with much of this but it is the way it is. 
In Japan as I have said, there are more horses waiting to go into training than there are places so, if a horse becomes unhinged making it to difficult to handle, it ends up on a dinner plate. 
Rather a quick put down than that.
I cannot find the video where a horse was in a stall, Pail walks up to it and picks out all four feet, he then send a Japanese lad to do the same and the horse would not allow him anywhere near. This horse had not been laid down - it was purely the difference in attitude and experience.
It would be wonderful if all racehorses could be given more time, if the lads could be taught to handle them correctly - though in many cases no matter how much you try to teach them they will never learn! It will not happen in my lifetime with many trainers, they are under pressure from the owners especially in a country like Japan where if a horse does not fit into the slot it is eaten. *


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## christopher

usandpets said:


> It's also fine if you want to believe that horses think "This predator made me lay down but since he didn't eat me, I'll be his friend." Let's say someone kidnaps or takes you hostage at gun point, but they tell you "I'm not going to hurt you." Are you going to think, "Oh, okay then. Everything is fine and dandy. I guess I can trust this person." Not likely.


while we're on the subject of interspecific phenomenon,
Flooding (psychology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Foxhunter

usandpets said:


> Why does Paul do it? Like you said, he has many horses to start. Does he need to build a foundation of training with the horse? Not really. He just needs to get them so they can be worked with and to be able to ride. To me, it's a short cut to training. It doesn't matter how many horses he has trained or how many he sent off and went on to be great horses. What matters is that he promotes "the tap" as the fix all. Did you know that he also starts many horses at only 18 months old? Maybe that's ok because they are just destined for the racetrack. He's such a great guy though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree it is a short cut - but one that is less traumatic than many others. 
Yes, I did know that horses are started as early as 18 months - that happens all over the world in the racing industry. 
I have started many horse that were bred for and ran on the flat racing track, many were around 18 - 20 months old. Did I like it? No I didn't. Could I have quit the job and done something else? Yes, I could. The reason I stayed and did enjoy the work was because the horses I did start all had a very good grounding. They were lunged correctly, long reined out and about and treated with understanding. 
Unfortunately there are many who are into much of a hurry. I would refuse to set a time. Insisted on X-rays of knees to see if they were closed or not. I did a good enough job that I was sent many difficult and highly bred horses many went on to win Group 1 races and many, when they were not racing during the winter they returned for further education. 

It is very hypocritical to keep on about racing young horses when in the USA there are classes for ridden 2 year old horses and they are carrying far heavier people and heavy western saddles.


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## Cherie

I completely disagree that domesticated horses look at us as 'predators'. Newly captured feral horses or completely unhandled horses do, but not horses that have been handled and worked with. These 'feral' and unhandled domestic horses truly 'fear' us and it is important to TEACH those horse that we are a new member of their 'herd' and NOT there to hurt or eat them.

The 'rogue' horses or the horses that just do not want to comply with the reasonable requests of their handlers are responding to us as they would a fellow herd member that just would not submit and back away from them. Their behavior ranges from 'pushy' to small 'attacks' (like biting or a single kick) to all-out attacks that could kill a person. These all-out attacks would be the equivalence of a herd leader attacking a serious challenger for that 'top position' in the herd. They will savagely bite them, paw them (usually a stud) or run at them and then turn around and run backwards toward them kicking with both back feet (usually a mare or gelding). These dominant types of horses just hate backing away from us when asked and would really like to see us back away from them.

The horse-predator relationship makes a horse want to flee the predator in fear. He only fights the predator when cornered and his demeanor is one of panic and fear. Anyone that has ever been attacked by a mean horse will tell you that the horse was anything but afraid of the person. It is an attack like a stallion or lead mare would launch at another horse vying for the top place in that herd. They want you out of there or dead. They are past just wanting you to be submissive in their presence.


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## Rascaholic

Someone said to me yesterday in a post "It is what it is." Well so is laying a horse down. It's a tool. Use it or don't. My take on laying one down is just that, if I needed it, it would be in the tool box. How is this training tool any different than your choice of bit, tie down, noseband, spur, whip, and such, as all of them can and frequently do wind up being torture devices IF they aren't used CORRECTLY?

Noseband, to me, that is the most over used piece of equipment in the tool boxes. Now, before anyone jumps neck deep in my poo, I don't know how they are used, why, or what good they do. My personal take is they are a short cut. Teach your horse to respond to the bit and he won't keep gaping that honking mouth of his open to avoid it. Why clamp it closed? See what I am saying? I know nothing about the subject except a few preconceived notions. But I am not gonna scream foul every time I see one used either. It's a tool, not in my tool box, but a tool none the less.

As for Paul Williams, I have a lot of respect for the gentleman from what I have seen on the videos he posts. He does a hard job for horses with a hard job. So what if I don't agree with everything he does, I still find things in his tool box that come in handy. 

Clinton Anderson, well there are things I'd like to smack him for, but some of his "methods" are in the tool box. *shrugs* They work when others didn't.

Ole PP, ummm yeah. Him not so much. I dislike his attitude of being the horse god. Sorry just my opinion. BUT I have used some of his tools and keep a couple in the tool box. Again he isn't my ideal, but I did learn some things from his "method."

Laying a horse down is a tool, love it or hate, or be indifferent. But it has it's purpose and its practical uses.


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## Cherie

That is pretty much just how I see it and use it. I have no desire to use it on all horses, but the really tough ones -- well it really 'messes' with their minds.

I hunted up the Western Horseman Magazine after the other thread a while back about laying horses down. I found it VERY interesting. It gives a 'real' explanation to just how it messes with their minds. I knew it went far beyond just immobilizing a horse or 'showing him who was boss'. It really does a very strange but ever-so-useful of a thing to a horse's whole attitude and their resistance is almost completely gone. It is so evident in horses that previously wanted to kill me and after sitting on them and petting them all over for a while, they just got up a completely different horse - whole different attitude. They start learning instead of just being 'on the fight'.


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## versatilityhorsetraining

Foxhunter said:


> *I agree with much of this but it is the way it is.
> In Japan as I have said, there are more horses waiting to go into training than there are places so, if a horse becomes unhinged making it to difficult to handle, it ends up on a dinner plate.
> Rather a quick put down than that.
> I cannot find the video where a horse was in a stall, Pail walks up to it and picks out all four feet, he then send a Japanese lad to do the same and the horse would not allow him anywhere near. This horse had not been laid down - it was purely the difference in attitude and experience.
> It would be wonderful if all racehorses could be given more time, if the lads could be taught to handle them correctly - though in many cases no matter how much you try to teach them they will never learn! It will not happen in my lifetime with many trainers, they are under pressure from the owners especially in a country like Japan where if a horse does not fit into the slot it is eaten. *


 You don not have to lose composure when you are mad. So either he was mad, and made an irrational decision and laid the horse down on the ground, or he just lacks all common sense and is an idiot. He got the half tap, he laid the horse down, and the horse only was better because the fact that he was physically tired from the fight. All the horse learned from this is that when he gets wrenched on with a bit, then to go down in a half tap or lay down.


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## Rascaholic

versatilityhorsetraining said:


> You don not have to lose composure when you are mad. So either he was mad, and made an irrational decision and laid the horse down on the ground, or he just lacks all common sense and is an idiot. He got the half tap, he laid the horse down, and the horse only was better because the fact that he was physically tired from the fight. All the horse learned from this is that when he gets wrenched on with a bit, then to go down in a half tap or lay down.


While I agree negative emotion hasn't a place in training, I don't see that he got angry. He put a stop to the disrespect the colt showed when he ran all over the previous handler, struck at him several times, reared, was very pushy, and then stomped his foot while running into him. Game on? Yep would have been for me as well. 

Whether it was the laying down, or the expenditure of energy ( I didn't see to much struggle, not enough to tire him out anyways) it worked. Could he have taken him into the sand, sure. I'd have done what he did, get him when the offense is fresh in the colts mind. Not spend 10 minutes hyping him up some more trying to get him into the pen.

The colt was out of control, he was dangerous. The why's don't matter right then. Fix it and fix it NOW. Not when he reared again and connected with the handlers head like he almost did a couple times already!


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## versatilityhorsetraining

Rascaholic said:


> While I agree negative emotion hasn't a place in training, I don't see that he got angry. He put a stop to the disrespect the colt showed when he ran all over the previous handler, struck at him several times, reared, was very pushy, and then stomped his foot while running into him. Game on? Yep would have been for me as well.
> 
> Whether it was the laying down, or the expenditure of energy ( I didn't see to much struggle, not enough to tire him out anyways) it worked. Could he have taken him into the sand, sure. I'd have done what he did, get him when the offense is fresh in the colts mind. Not spend 10 minutes hyping him up some more trying to get him into the pen.
> 
> The colt was out of control, he was dangerous. The why's don't matter right then. Fix it and fix it NOW. Not when he reared again and connected with the handlers head like he almost did a couple times already!


I see things a lot differently, and I am aware of this. This is what I saw: Handler gets pushed around and struck at. Then we have the trainer step in. He already knows the horse is showing negative behavior. Grabs the horse and acts like he is going to lead him without an issue and then gets stepped on. Does not make a single move to lay the horse down until after the horse steps on his foot. 

Now I respect that you would get after the colt when the offense was fresh in his mind. However watch the video again and you will see that was not the case at all! The video was edited, and from one scene to the next the horse is farther up the driveway. Then the trainer did his prep work to prepare to lay the horse down. Being the correction was already delayed why not move him to a better location? Oh, I tried using logic again. 

You did not see much struggle since the video was edited. The horse horse is in fairly good condition and due to the visible sweating it is apparent that there was a struggle or expenditure of energy. 

I really like the point where that awesome 90 pound jockey is wrenching on that horses mouth, using so much pressure that he he is able to balance on one foot. 

Just for clarification I am not trying to say that the horse did not an attitude adjustment, because he most certainly did.


----------



## Rascaholic

versatilityhorsetraining said:


> I see things a lot differently, and I am aware of this. This is what I saw: Handler gets pushed around and struck at. Then we have the trainer step in. He already knows the horse is showing negative behavior. Grabs the horse and acts like he is going to lead him without an issue*It's what I would have done. Walk up confident and don't expect trouble, a lot of times you won't get it. *and then gets stepped on. Does not make a single move to lay the horse down until after the horse steps on his foot. *I thought this was fair. He gave the colt a choice, colt chose to walk all over him. *
> 
> Now I respect that you would get after the colt when the offense was fresh in his mind. However watch the video again and you will see that was not the case at all! *How so? There is a longer version out there somewhere. The colt acted out the whole time. *The video was edited, and from one scene to the next the horse is farther up the driveway.*I think he kept going up and sideways.* Then the trainer did his prep work to prepare to lay the horse down. Being the correction was already delayed why not move him to a better location? Oh, I tried using logic again. *If you aren't getting a calm response then I'd say the problem is ongoing.*
> 
> You did not see much struggle since the video was edited. The horse horse is in fairly good condition and due to the visible sweating it is apparent that there was a struggle or expenditure of energy. *Anxiety causes sweating. The colt was obviously anxious. I'd be anxious going from a handler I could run over to someone with a no BS attitude.*
> 
> I really like the point where that awesome 90 pound jockey is wrenching on that horses mouth, using so much pressure that he he is able to balance on one foot. *He has ahold of the saddle as well. *shrugs* Please tell me you have actually watched equestrian sports, (No one kill me in my sleep, this is an example) such as XC. There is as much or more pressure when a rider is standing in the saddle leaned back hanging on at the bottom half of some of those jumps. *
> 
> Just for clarification I am not trying to say that the horse did not an attitude adjustment, because he most certainly did.*I gotcha there.*


I'm not saying it is pretty, but it got the job done. The colt walks off better than he reared up, he is calm and starting to relax, no rears, and he is ok, what more could you ask for? Tool used, problem solved.


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## versatilityhorsetraining

Originally Posted by versatilityhorsetraining 
I see things a lot differently, and I am aware of this. This is what I saw: Handler gets pushed around and struck at. Then we have the trainer step in. He already knows the horse is showing negative behavior. Grabs the horse and acts like he is going to lead him without an issueIt's what I would have done. Walk up confident and don't expect trouble, a lot of times you won't get it. I think heading to the round pen would of been the smart move but he chose to turn around and head back to the barn and then gets stepped on. Does not make a single move to lay the horse down until after the horse steps on his foot. I thought this was fair. He gave the colt a choice, colt chose to walk all over him. Did this to himself; I have said that three times now. Keep yourself at a forty-five degree angle from the shoulder and you will keep your toes. 

Now I respect that you would get after the colt when the offense was fresh in his mind. However watch the video again and you will see that was not the case at all! How so? There is a longer version out there somewhere. The colt acted out the whole time. Except while the trainer was fixing his reins we know he was at least patient for that The video was edited, and from one scene to the next the horse is farther up the driveway.I think he kept going up and sideways. complete speculationThen the trainer did his prep work to prepare to lay the horse down. Being the correction was already delayed why not move him to a better location? Oh, I tried using logic again. If you aren't getting a calm response then I'd say the problem is ongoing.

You did not see much struggle since the video was edited. The horse horse is in fairly good condition and due to the visible sweating it is apparent that there was a struggle or expenditure of energy. Anxiety causes sweating. The colt was obviously anxious. I'd be anxious going from a handler I could run over to someone with a no BS attitude.I do not see any anxiety in this horse, even after the trainer starts leading him around at the end he is still pushy and confident, just tired. You can see it arounds his eyes, when he walks to the camera. 

I really like the point where that awesome 90 pound jockey is wrenching on that horses mouth, using so much pressure that he he is able to balance on one foot. He has ahold of the saddle as well.You think he does and he might. Still speculation though. Regardless he still was really pulling on that horses face *shrugs* Please tell me you have actually watched equestrian sports,I sure have (No one kill me in my sleep, this is an example) such as XC. There is as much or more pressure when a rider is standing in the saddle leaned back hanging on at the bottom half of some of those jumps. This point just means that one is harsher than the other, and I suppose that you are hoping that makes a little bulb go off and I say "the trainer was not so bad" if anything it made me wonder if their was a better way? The same thing when I critique myself; could I have done that better? 

Just for clarification I am not trying to say that the horse did not an attitude adjustment, because he most certainly did.I gotcha there.

As I was talking to my dad this evening I mentioned the forum. he kinda laughed. He has cowboyed quite a bit and we see things a lot differently. I like to converse with him though, he is always good for insight. I knew he thought it was kinda strange that I joined, so I told him "Dad, I know that 90% of these people will never see things the way I do, and I will not convince them. However, if one person reads what I have wrote and gets something positive out of it, then it was worth every letter I have typed." 

With that all being said; this subject has been exhausted, I am on to my next debate  I am sure I will see some of you again. 
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/laying-horse-down-123777/page5/#ixzz1vTCjXVOr


Rascaholic said:


> I'm not saying it is pretty, but it got the job done. The colt walks off better than he reared up, he is calm and starting to relax, no rears, and he is ok, what more could you ask for? Tool used, problem solved.


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## christopher

versatilityhorsetraining said:


> I think heading to the round pen would of been the smart move


why?



versatilityhorsetraining said:


> Did this to himself; I have said that three times now. Keep yourself at a forty-five degree angle from the shoulder and you will keep your toes.


if you keep your position relative to the horse, rather than teach the horse to keep it's position relative to you, then you = beta and the horse = alpha.



versatilityhorsetraining said:


> I do not see any anxiety in this horse, even after the trainer starts leading him around at the end he is still pushy and confident, just tired. You can see it arounds his eyes, when he walks to the camera.


regarding reading a horses behaviour, i think you can get a lot more accurate information by watching it's behaviour than watching it's eyes.


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## versatilityhorsetraining

christopher said:


> why?
> I do not want to work with a thousand pound animal on a hard surface. Especially when put in that position they can lose their balance very easy. Nothing like a fracture to set the attitude right. I have done stupid things (not referring to anything) in my time that has worked, the reason I consider them stupid is the payoff was not worth the risk.
> 
> if you keep your position relative to the horse, rather than teach the horse to keep it's position relative to you, then you = beta and the horse = alpha.
> 
> You are absolutely correct, that we should not work around our horses. However, sometimes it is best to get through a situation so that you can set yourself up for success.
> 
> regarding reading a horses behaviour, i think you can get a lot more accurate information by watching it's behaviour than watching it's eyes.


You are right again. If I want to know specifications to something I look at the less recognizable details. The person that I was talking to earlier said something about anxiety. A horse that is anxious though is going to have a more opened eye, or worried look. After this horse gets up from the tap position he has a physically tired look. Now if he would of licked his lips after this, I would of chalked it up to a mental sweat.


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## Skyseternalangel

Well this discussion has gone way over my head. Seems I have another thing to learn about.


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## Skyseternalangel

COWCHICK77 said:


> My husband and I did an experiment on bunch of colts we had to start. They were untouched horses ranging from two to five years old. Half we laid down, half not. The horses we laid down progressed faster in training and were less likely to be over reactive in a stressful or scary situation. Makes sense to me. I don't start all my horses that way but I started Stilts using that method and I believe it contributed to his outcome, the best horse I have ever owned.


Okay I see how that would work (regarding your insertion of the piece from the WH Article) but is it a short cut?

When I first heard about laying a horse down I was like "omg Sky would benefit so much from this" but as I read on.. it just kind of took all of the trust building out of it. It seemed like you were forcing the horse to deal.. instead of helping them to deal.

And please no criticizing my way of thinking. I do bite.

But try to understand this from my point of view. I gained his trust and respect through patience and helping him learn that things aren't out to kill him. I increased his "down regulator" threshold (please correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly) by desensitizing him to people, to things, to sounds, to ideas, to smells, to scenarios. 

Would it be fair to him (this is about him as an individual horse in my herd) to instead of helping him through that, making him lay down and just kind of.. be fearless (in a good way) ?

I hope I don't sound wishy washy.. but you can see why I said this is over my head lol. 

I'm asking as a herdleader, not as a trainer.


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## Foxhunter

Some years ago I had to lead the horses about 200 yards down a road to get to the fields. Only 500 yards further on was a very busy main road. We had two big two year old geldings (TBs) and although both were well mannered individually, leading them both in halters they were getting a bit pushy and strong. I should really have put a bridle on them (no control halters in the UK then) or a stud chain. 
However, I didn't. One morning I was turning them out and they were hauling me. A Chinook helicopter came low overhead Both horses looked up, one then tripped on the edge of the grass bank and went down, the other tripped over his legs, so there I was with two unbroken horses in a heap on the ground. 
I was fully expecting them to leap up and take off but they got up and stood looking at me as if to say "Heck, how did you do that?"

After that I could have lead them together down the road with a piece of string around their necks, they never egged each other on again.
Not the Tap nor deliberate but they thought it was and it did stop the messing around. 
I had never thought of this before but it certainly changed their attitude. 

*Versatality* All I can say is that you have never been in the horse industry where you have little time to work with starting horses and rely on an income to from it to make your living. 
In racing there are times when you have a stable full of youngsters to start. This can be 10 - 20 at a time. There is not the time to fiddle and faff about with 'natural' horsemanship. Not are you dealing with quiet horses, you are dealing with many highly bred animals that are highly strung because the last thing a breeder looks for is temperament. 
The only time you can afford to turn these horses away is when the stables are all full.
Majority of race trainers we were dealing with were understanding that there could be no set time limit for turning these horses from unbroken to being ready for race training proper. 

Like it or not, time is money and when in the business, it has to pay.


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## christopher

versatilityhorsetraining said:


> You are right again. If I want to know specifications to something I look at the less recognizable details. The person that I was talking to earlier said something about anxiety. A horse that is anxious though is going to have a more opened eye, or worried look. After this horse gets up from the tap position he has a physically tired look. Now if he would of licked his lips after this, I would of chalked it up to a mental sweat.


i refuse to believe that the difference between anxiety and a lack of anxiety can be determined solely by a horse's facial expressions, while entirely disregarding the rest of the horses behaviour.


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## Rascaholic

versatilityhorsetraining ok, debate over since you insist:shock::lol::rofl:


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## versatilityhorsetraining

Foxhunter said:


> Some years ago I had to lead the horses about 200 yards down a road to get to the fields. Only 500 yards further on was a very busy main road. We had two big two year old geldings (TBs) and although both were well mannered individually, leading them both in halters they were getting a bit pushy and strong. I should really have put a bridle on them (no control halters in the UK then) or a stud chain.
> However, I didn't. One morning I was turning them out and they were hauling me. A Chinook helicopter came low overhead Both horses looked up, one then tripped on the edge of the grass bank and went down, the other tripped over his legs, so there I was with two unbroken horses in a heap on the ground.
> I was fully expecting them to leap up and take off but they got up and stood looking at me as if to say "Heck, how did you do that?"
> 
> After that I could have lead them together down the road with a piece of string around their necks, they never egged each other on again.
> Not the Tap nor deliberate but they thought it was and it did stop the messing around.
> I had never thought of this before but it certainly changed their attitude.
> 
> *Versatality* All I can say is that you have never been in the horse industry where you have little time to work with starting horses and rely on an income to from it to make your living.
> In racing there are times when you have a stable full of youngsters to start. This can be 10 - 20 at a time. There is not the time to fiddle and faff about with 'natural' horsemanship. Not are you dealing with quiet horses, you are dealing with many highly bred animals that are highly strung because the last thing a breeder looks for is temperament.
> The only time you can afford to turn these horses away is when the stables are all full.
> Majority of race trainers we were dealing with were understanding that there could be no set time limit for turning these horses from unbroken to being ready for race training proper.
> 
> Like it or not, time is money and when in the business, it has to pay.


I am sorry to say but as my 12 years as a farrier I have had to work 'around horses' while making my living. Which I am sure you are going to pop off with another statement of credibility. That has been one of my professions. Along with cowboying, starting colts, training two-year olds for a NCHA trainer, apprenticing under two world qualifying trainers. Managing a boarding stable and training for the public and several local breeders.

In my shoeing career I dealt with more difficult horses than you can shake a stick at. Time is money, so that meant I had to become better, faster and more effective with what I had. I only got paid if the iron was on the feet, so I did my job and I did it correctly. Especially as a young farrier I could not afford a reputation for "abusing" my clients horses. So I learned how to do it right. 

You can go on thinking that you know all about me! Good luck with that!


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## versatilityhorsetraining

christopher said:


> i refuse to believe that the difference between anxiety and a lack of anxiety can be determined solely by a horse's facial expressions, while entirely disregarding the rest of the horses behaviour.


"solely" was never used by me. The horse is not worried in this video, that is most obvious after he was put in the tap, and he is still thinking about rearing up.


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## versatilityhorsetraining

Rascaholic said:


> versatilityhorsetraining ok, debate over since you insist:shock::lol::rofl:


Fun fact: my names at the top of my comments, you don't like what I have to say or you are getting bored.... You are not obligated to read it.


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## versatilityhorsetraining

So as I said before I see things differently, I am willing to prove myself wrong  
I will admit I made some statements and jumped to some conclusions that were not correct. I also feel that I was correct at a times at well. 

Debate ya later


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## Rascaholic

versatilityhorsetraining said:


> Rogue Busters (video reply) - YouTube
> 
> So as I said before I see things differently, I am willing to prove myself wrong
> I will admit I made some statements and jumped to some conclusions that were not correct. I also feel that I was correct at a times at well.
> 
> Debate ya later


That explained a lot. 

As to skipping your threads over, meh. I found it funny and tried conveying that. Sorry you didn't find the situation as funny as I did.


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## COWCHICK77

Skyseternalangel said:


> Okay I see how that would work (regarding your insertion of the piece from the WH Article) but is it a short cut?
> 
> When I first heard about laying a horse down I was like "omg Sky would benefit so much from this" but as I read on.. it just kind of took all of the trust building out of it. It seemed like you were forcing the horse to deal.. instead of helping them to deal.
> 
> And please no criticizing my way of thinking. I do bite.
> 
> But try to understand this from my point of view. I gained his trust and respect through patience and helping him learn that things aren't out to kill him. I increased his "down regulator" threshold (please correct me if I'm not understanding this correctly) by desensitizing him to people, to things, to sounds, to ideas, to smells, to scenarios.
> 
> Would it be fair to him (this is about him as an individual horse in my herd) to instead of helping him through that, making him lay down and just kind of.. be fearless (in a good way) ?
> 
> I hope I don't sound wishy washy.. but you can see why I said this is over my head lol.
> 
> I'm asking as a herdleader, not as a trainer.


You can look at it anyway that you want to, just as long as you understand what it really does to a horse. Like I said I am not trying to convince anyone that this is the best and only method.

This is the way I see it...

If you are dealing with a tough horse like Cherie describes using it on don't you agree this the best way as opposed to being pawed in the head or sending him to the killer buyers?

For starting a colt you really have to look at the situations in which we have used it. These are horses that are nearly fully grown and have never been touched by a human. Which these horses have been running loose on the ranch and have a very strong sense of self preservation. They too will not hesitate to paw you in the head. 

Also in a true working ranch situation we don't have 6 months to piddle in a round pen before throwing a saddle on, let alone get them ready to go outside and go to work. We had a couple of months between shipping calves and yearlings to getting our next bunch of yearlings and calving to get these horses halter broke, saddled, rode and broke enough to where you can go out and get a job done on them. So if there is something I can do correctly that gets the same results, is safe for the horse and for myself in a shorter amount of time I am going to use it. And what I mean by safe for myself, I mean that the method I use will desensitize the horse enough where I can be around him safely, and later when I am riding him and is less likely to spook, buck and run off and leave me in a rock pile.

But like I said before, it is not something I use on all of my horses.


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## Allen Pogue

*Laying Horses down*

Hi Folks,
I looked in on this busy forum after reading the article in the current issue of Western Horseman magazine. Just curious to see what folks might be saying about the techniques detailed and the reasoning behind methods. 

I will share a video clip of a seven month old QH filly that was sent to me two weeks after she was weaned for an introduction to equine "charm school". 







If you guys would like to discuss the results shown here after just five weeks of training. I will reply as time allows.

Allen Pogue 
Dripping Springs, Texas


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## ktrolson

In dealing with horses there can be only one leader. If it's not you then it's the horse. I'm not sure about you but most people would rather be the leader in a relationship with a 1,000 lb animal that could very easily kill them. Being a leader does not mean you are an abuser or treat the horse unfairly. It just means the horse must follow your directions. Horses don't have the same emotions as humans so to think laying a horse down "breaks his spirit" puts it in the wrong context. If done properly and gently it results in a horse that not only respects you but trusts you and it relieves the horse of his fear. He was put in his most vulnerable position and nothing bad happened. He realizes the humans are not out to get him after all. The horse enjoys not being fearful. It can relax and be at ease. 

Not all horses need this done but if the horse has a lot of fear or aggression (aggression is usually fear based too) or lack of respect then it can be the best thing for that horse. It can make him be a respectful member of society vs. dog food. Of course this should only be done by a professional trainer and when it's done properly it can be a beautiful thing to watch.

My horse was laid down before I got him. He's an awesome horse, very respectful and full of energy. Under saddle he is full of try and has never even thought of bucking. He does not have a broken spirit, I can assure you of that. He loves people, especially me. He will come and just rest his head on my shoulder and also attempt mutual grooming with me. (I only let that go so far though.....LOL). He's a great example of what this technique can do for a horse, which is giving it a lifetime foundation of trust and respect.

I hope this helps explain the benefits of laying a horse down. And please remember, I am talking about when it's done properly, without brutally "throwing" the horse down.


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## Skyseternalangel

ktrolson said:


> In dealing with horses there can be only one leader. If it's not you then it's the horse. I'm not sure about you but most people would rather be the leader in a relationship with a 1,000 lb animal that could very easily kill them. Being a leader does not mean you are an abuser or treat the horse unfairly. It just means the horse must follow your directions.


:thumbsup: Agreed




ktrolson said:


> Horses don't have the same emotions as humans so to think laying a horse down "breaks his spirit" puts it in the wrong context. If done properly and gently it results in a horse that not only respects you but trusts you and it relieves the horse of his fear. He was put in his most vulnerable position and nothing bad happened. He realizes the humans are not out to get him after all. The horse enjoys not being fearful. It can relax and be at ease.
> 
> Not all horses need this done but if the horse has a lot of fear or aggression (aggression is usually fear based too) or lack of respect then it can be the best thing for that horse. It can make him be a respectful member of society vs. dog food. Of course this should only be done by a professional trainer and when it's done properly it can be a beautiful thing to watch.
> 
> My horse was laid down before I got him. He's an awesome horse, very respectful and full of energy. Under saddle he is full of try and has never even thought of bucking. He does not have a broken spirit, I can assure you of that. He loves people, especially me. He will come and just rest his head on my shoulder and also attempt mutual grooming with me. (I only let that go so far though.....LOL). He's a great example of what this technique can do for a horse, which is giving it a lifetime foundation of trust and respect.
> 
> I hope this helps explain the benefits of laying a horse down. And please remember, I am talking about when it's done properly, without brutally "throwing" the horse down.


Interesting thoughts.. my horse hasn't tried anything like bucking with me (with others, yes) what would that mean in your eyes?

It's definitely something that should be done properly.. it's just a strange concept. I can see how it would be a training tool but at the same time it seems like a shortcut to some.

Guess I just have to change my perspective.


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## BreakThrough209x

My family owns a training business and one of the things that we teach in our ground work its teaching them to lay down on command! Its really a beautiful thing when you think about it, being able to lay down a horse with just the touch of a finger, and having them trust you enough to have them stay down until you're ready to let them back up. Part of the reason we teach them to do it is for emergency situations so we don't have to be wrestling them trying to get them to lay down, but its also good exposure for the horse. When their on the ground their ultimately in their "weakest" position, they can't get up to fast you know? But anyway, while we have them on the ground we crawl all over the horse, move their legs around, lift their legs up, put a horse ball on top of them.. Anything you can think of, just trying to get the horse desensitized to anything and everything. Lol not to mention its pretty cool to be able to have your horse laying down and then sit on his back and have him stand up while your still on him and then go ride haha. And since were on the topic here's a video of us laying down our yearling. Poor boy got gelded the day before lol.


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## Skyseternalangel

BreakThrough209x said:


> Its really a beautiful thing when you think about it, being able to lay down a horse with just the touch of a finger, and having them trust you enough to have them stay down until you're ready to let them back up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQD-K3g2Ve4


Well that's great!! A really sensible and gentle way to think about it. 

Maybe you just worded it better than everyone else, but I could see me laying down my horses to achieve this level of trust without being intrusive.


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