# Guns, laws, etc



## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

No, what I was saying is I would like someone to show me the law which states one cannot carry a gun except for hunting season. This is in response to post # 65 


> You said it was out of season so that man was not a hunter he was a poacher you should have called the police/wild life agency and reported him


This person is accusing someone of carrying a gun while afield is a poacher and that they are breaking the law. This person seems to have a Hurry up call the cops and get this yahoo out of here and lock him up attitude. Post #18 clearly implies that the person is up to no good because someone is carrying a gun while it is not hunting season. In post #18, I agree the other person may have been rude or even harrasing the poster, but that is not was implied at first. It was clearly stated 


> *I've had a deer hunter come up to me with a gun (out of season mind you)* and start threatening us about calling the cops and how he first thought the horses were deer, blah blah blah. That's probably the most dangerous time to be riding is during hunting season.* Those deer hunters usually are a little drunk to start out with and carrying weapons and then you go and tick them off by riding past their hunting grounds*....but I carry a knife on the trail and try to stay off private property unless I've been given permission. Luckily I live in such a small town though most of the people are nice and just stop and talk to us.


If the poster was threatened, that is one thing, and a LEO should be called, but that has nothing to do with carrying a gun except during hunting season.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Ok makes more sense now, I tend to carry a firearm on a regular basis as well.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

But it is illegal to hunt a deer (or other) when it is not in season.. I have also heard of hunters going out and drinking a mason jar of moonshine! It's not the part of carrying a gun it was because the hunter was hunting deer when the sean was over and could have possibly be drunk... And with a gun.


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

Ray MacDonald said:


> But it is illegal to hunt a deer (or other) when it is not in season.. I have also heard of hunters going out and drinking a mason jar of moonshine! It's not the part of carrying a gun it was because the hunter was hunting deer when the sean was over and could have possibly be drunk... And with a gun.


 
I've heard of this, I've heard of that. Blah Blah, who cares what you've heard of? I've heard of bigfoot. I've heard of the loch ness monster. I've heard of santa clause. "Hearing of" something makes it no more real than anything of these things. Are there irresponsible hunters? Sure. But are there anymore irresponsible hunters than irresponsible car drivers? No way. The simple fact is this. You have no way of knowing what a person is hunting by looking at them unless you WATCH them shoot a deer. Most (if not all)states have species that can be hunted year around. It's usually best to not be too quick to judge. Hunters are just doing what they love. You ride horses, they hunt. Most states also have laws against possessing firearms while consuming alcohol. If someone is violating these laws, law enforcement should be contacted. It's a statistical fact that you are more likely to be struck by lightning than killed accidentally by a firearm. Should a person take precautions? Sure. Should people spread harmful rumors to make a point? An intellectually honest person wouldn't.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

speaking of self defense on the trail lets discuss firearms. many of us choose this. What models are people happy with. I am coming up empty on what I call a kit gun for myself. Seems S&W and Taurus have dropped 3" barrel lengths on any of there light weight frames. 
So my criteria:
20 oz or under, 
3" revolver, or 4" auto
22 magnum or larger,
decent sights with some adjustment.
readily available ammo.
decent trigger.
A grip you can get ahold of,
Any suggestions ?


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> speaking of self defense on the trail lets discuss firearms. many of us choose this. What models are people happy with. I am coming up empty on what I call a kit gun for myself. Seems S&W and Taurus have dropped 3" barrel lengths on any of there light weight frames.
> So my criteria:
> 20 oz or under,
> 3" revolver, or 4" auto
> ...


Smith & Wesson M&P in your caliber of choice: 9x19, .40 S&W, .45 ACP

Glock 17/22/21


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I have a taurus 709 slim in 9mm. The barrel is 3 inches I believe and the trigger is nice and light almost like my 1911. It has a polymer frame and (I belive) a stainless slide so it is pretty impervious to weather and it's also very light should be around or under 20 ounces. The sights are somewhat adjustable and it shoots great. I've never had a misfire or ftf with regular ammo. The ONLY time I had a FTF was when I was shooting bird shot at a bull that was brushed up in the willows. It also works really well as a concealed carry gun. Because of the width and the wieght I hardly notice when I carry it.

I would highly recommend it!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I carry a Ruger 38. I never had to use it, but it does make "bad guys" turn around to see a crazy woman point a gun at them. How do I know? ..........


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't always carry a revolver.....

But when I do, it's a 3" S&W Model 65.

Stay well armed, my friends.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

If a few of you would indulge me...
I am Canadian, and gun laws are very tight here in Ontario. My questions are honest, and probably quite naive.
Can you just walk into a gun shop and buy whatever handgun suits your fancy? Do you need any kind of permit? I have heard one cannot carry a 'concealed weapon'. What does that mean, exactly? If you are wearing a holster under your coat, is that not concealed? You can't exactly walk into walmart with a gun in your hand.. right???
I appreciate your patience. I will just sit here drinking my brewsky and chewing on my backbacon like a good Canadian...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If a few of you would indulge me...
I am Canadian, and gun laws are very tight here in Ontario. My questions are honest, and probably quite naive.
Can you just walk into a gun shop and buy whatever handgun suits your fancy? 

*For the most part, yes. There are certain firearms that are illegal such as fully automatic weapons (think the Uzi's you see in movies that spit a clip of bullets with a single trigger pull), also some weapons that have been modified from their original or intended manufacturing are illegal (sawed off shotguns). There are a lot of others, but I don't know them all. Pretty much any regular semi-automatic or revolver handgun is available, as are most types of rifles/shotguns and some types of assault rifles.*

Do you need any kind of permit? 

*To own a handgun, no. There is a whole list of things that you can't be if you want to own a gun. You can't be convicted of any crime classed above a Class B Misdemeanor, you can't be chemically dependent, you have to possess the ability to make rational judgment calls, can't be delinquent in child support payments, can't have a restraining order against you, etc. Pretty much anyone over the age of 21 that can pass the FBI background check can buy a handgun. To carry it though, you have to have a permit in Texas. There are some states that have open carry laws, where you can carry your gun concealed or not without having to have any kind of permit.*

I have heard one cannot carry a 'concealed weapon'. What does that mean, exactly? If you are wearing a holster under your coat, is that not concealed? You can't exactly walk into Wilmar with a gun in your hand.. right???

*It is only legal to carry concealed weapons if you have attended a class and received a "concealed carry license". I have one and can carry my loaded firearm pretty much anywhere I go. There are laws, of course, prohibiting anyone other than law enforcement carrying guns in banks, schools, hospitals, courthouses, and several other similar types of buildings. Also, it is unlawful to carry a concealed weapon into any business that has posted "no firearms permitted" signs.*

*Also, it's illegal to have a concealed carry license and carry a gun that you intentionally fail to conceal (carrying it on your belt without a coat or shirt to cover it).*

I appreciate your patience. I will just sit here drinking my brewsky and chewing on my backbacon like a good Canadian...

Keep in mind though that all my answers are based on Texas law. Each state will have their own laws and regulations regarding the buying, carrying, and licensing of handguns.


With that said, I carry a .40 Taurus 24/7 Pro-Carry. It's a bit larger profiled than I really would like as a concealed weapon to carry around a city with me. I would want something slim and really compact for that, but being out in the boonies like I am, it works well. It has a weight and feel that fits me very well. I've always preferred a gun with a bit of heft to it, not something that weighs less than a cell phone.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

smrobs said:


> *Also, it's illegal to have a concealed carry license and carry a gun that you intentionally fail to conceal (carrying it on your belt without a coat or shirt to cover it).*
> 
> I don't think this is correct. You can wear it on your belt. At least here.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> speaking of self defense on the trail lets discuss firearms. many of us choose this. What models are people happy with. I am coming up empty on what I call a kit gun for myself. Seems S&W and Taurus have dropped 3" barrel lengths on any of there light weight frames.
> So my criteria:
> 20 oz or under,
> 3" revolver, or 4" auto
> ...


12 gauge double barrel coach gun (the longer barrel, shoulder stock version, since the under 12" barrel with pistol grip version isn't legal in SC for non law enforcement even if you have the federal permit).

Does it all for me. Good for anything I run into (since we don't have brown bear)


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

It _is_ illegal in Texas. I was going through my copy of the TDPS Hangun Laws booklet just to make sure that I didn't give any incorrect information. That's why I said


> Keep in mind though that all my answers are based on Texas law. Each state will have their own laws and regulations regarding the buying, carrying, and licensing of handguns.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> If a few of you would indulge me...
> I am Canadian, and gun laws are very tight here in Ontario. My questions are honest, and probably quite naive.
> Can you just walk into a gun shop and buy whatever handgun suits your fancy? Do you need any kind of permit? I have heard one cannot carry a 'concealed weapon'. What does that mean, exactly? If you are wearing a holster under your coat, is that not concealed? You can't exactly walk into walmart with a gun in your hand.. right???
> I appreciate your patience. I will just sit here drinking my brewsky and chewing on my backbacon like a good Canadian...


Depends on the state. They all have their own laws in addition to the federal laws.
In some states anything the federal gov't will grant a permit for is legal. Other states have more restrictions and won't permit weapons that even the federal gov't will grant permits for.
You have to look at the laws of each state to know what you can or can't own or carry. It's an interesting system since some states have very strick laws on possessing a firearm, but are not as strict about which ones you can possess. Others make it very easy to own a firearm, but have strict controls on what weapons you can own. And other combinations of requirements for still other states. Some state recognize each others permits and others do not. Some state don't require permits and other do.
There's no simple answer that will cover the variety of different rules each state might have.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

smrobs said:


> * There are certain firearms that are illegal such as fully automatic weapons (think the Uzi's you see in movies that spit a clip of bullets with a single trigger pull), also some weapons that have been modified from their original or intended manufacturing are illegal (sawed off shotguns)*


That is not correct at all. With the correct tax stamp from the ATF both of those kinds of firearms are legal to own in most states, Texas included.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> Can you just walk into a gun shop and buy whatever handgun suits your fancy?
> *If you do not fall under one the federal or state disqualifiers (the list is almost identical), then yes you can.*
> 
> 
> ...


See my answers in red above.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

smrobs said:


> * some types of assault rifles.*


By definition, assault rifles have the capability of automatic fire. Therefore the AR15 you can buy at a gunstore with nothing but an ATF 4473 is not an assault rifle. It's just a rifle like any other.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Hand gun carry is a little tricky as it varies from state to state. There was a bill introduced in congress to create a national standard for carry across state lines. I'm not sure if it died a death in committee or what, but a New York drivers license is honored in Vermont and visa versa but a state issued handgun carry permit (concealed carry permit in some states) isn't and reciprocity is determined between states.

Here's a good web site just click on a state to see the laws:

Handgunlaw.us

For instance, Tennessee honors permits from 40 states.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

gunslinger said:


> I'm not sure if it died a death in committee or what, but a New York drivers license is honored in Vermont and visa versa but a state issued handgun carry permit (concealed carry permit in some states) isn't and reciprocity is determined between states.


I'd rather Congress stayed out of it. It's a state matter. Believe it or not, there is no federal requirement that drivers licenses be honored from one state to the next.


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

When riding in the hills I either have my 44 mag revolver or my 454 Casull revolver. Which I carry depends on where I am going to be riding. I also have a 45-70 in my scabbard at all times when riding and some pepper spray tied on the front of the saddle. I use a shoulder holster for the revolvers for ease of reach and convenience. Sometimes they are concealed by my coat and sometimes they are not, it just depends on the weather. I do not need a concealed carry permit, but that also means that I cannot carry a concealed weapon across state lines. I can get a concealed carry permit if I choose though. I have taken the course and only need to send in my application and the money for the permit.

I have always though a good defense gun would be the Taurus Judge (shoots the 45 LC and/or the .410) or the Taurus Raging Judge (which shoots the 45 LC, 454 Casull, or the 410 ga shot shell). Not a typical concealed carry weapon of choice, but one that would cover most needs in the home and afield. This would also be a good choice should one beconme stranded in the mountains for the night, hurt or lost.


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

I have never shot from my horse and would prefer not to have to. Horses have great senses and I put a lot of trust and faith in the way my horse reacts while on a trail thick with brush limiting my view. When in these conditions, I whistle, sing or talk to my horse to make plenty of noise. I almost always ride and hunt solo. Like I mentioned before, it just takes common sense while afield. Some people have trained their horses for that, and that is a good thing, even if you never have to shoot from them. A horse is a living breathing creature and will react to sudden loud noise regardless. I choose not to put myself in that situation. This is why I also carry pepper spray, shoots a fog out to 30 feet. One must be aware of the air flow when choosing to use pepper spray or bear spray though. That stuff is just nasty.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Celeste said:


> My horse has not been trained for me to fire a gun off of her. I can imagine her reaction.............


You might be suprised! I have shot off of several different horses and none of them had much reaction. My steady grey horses doesn't even flinch as long as I turn him sideways to what I'm shooting.


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

Celeste said:


> smrobs said:
> 
> 
> > *Also, it's illegal to have a concealed carry license and carry a gun that you intentionally fail to conceal (carrying it on your belt without a coat or shirt to cover it).*
> ...


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

The problem with open carry is that it limits an individual to only being able to defend themself if the weather is nice. Try open carry when it is -20 without a heavy coat on. Try open carry when you go hunting first thing in the morning when it is in the teens and by mid-day it is 70. By having a coat on you are now carrying concealed. Like everything, there are draw backs and the way the laws are written, they can make a completely innocent person into a criminal.


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

I agree, elky. That's why I'm a concealed carrier. I can also carry while archery hunting and running my hounds on bears and lions. Which, otherwise, I couldn't even have a firearm in my camp......


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Though our carry permits are called "concealed carry permits" by locals including law enforcement officers, my actual permit says "carry permit". It does not specify concealed or not concealed.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

That's the way the Tennessee permit is, a handgun carry permit....and allows for concealed or open carry.

I'm another happy .44mag user.....I've seen bears in the Cohutta's darn near as big as my horse....I carried a .38 up until then and realized I didn't have enough gun.

Mildot, I understand your concerns. I'm still trying to figure out if a federal requirement is a good thing or not.


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

I do not think it is a good thing. I live in one of the few states that do not require a permit to carry a gun, concealed or otherwise. The 2nd Amendment is my permit to carry as it should be in all the states. That is the law which prohibits government regulating our right to keep and bear arms. Simple as that. It would therefore be wrong that I would then be required to have a permit to protect myself. How ridiculous for anyone to think it is fine for the government to give you permission, by way of a permit, to protect yourself. It says nothing of the like in the Constitution. Look at all the stupid laws on the books where in some states you may carry, but will go to prison for shooting someone that is threatening your life or the life of a family member. Look at the state laws that where you are not allowed to protect yourself, your family or your property. This is just wrong and this country needs to go back to its roots and follow the Constitution. If someone chooses not to arm themselves, so be it, that would be their choice, not the government’s decision. By requiring permits for reciprocity, the bill undermines efforts at the state level to pass constitutional carry (i.e., Vermont or Wyoming style carry). It forces Vermont and Wyoming residents (who do not need a permit to carry) to either obtain an out-of-state permit or to push their state to pass a more restrictive concealed carry law than it now enjoys.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Wyoming is very gun friendly. Illinois, on the other hand isn't. In Massachusetts, possession of ammo without a permit is a crime.

Any idea how many loose rounds I have in my glove compartment? Good thing I don't drive through Mass!


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

That is a perfect example of why not to have a federal requirement. It is one more option for the feds to tighten the strings and slowly take the the 2nd away. On the cover it sounds good, but it would be the stepping stone, the first step, to introduce, what seems like minor changes, in the bill so that I would no longer be able to purchase ammo without a permit or it would be made that everyone would be under the same laws and regulations as Illinoise. DC or Mass.


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## happy123 (Jan 4, 2012)

This is a great video. The only problem is that my sound is not working x.x

Thanks for sharing!


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Elky said:


> That is a perfect example of why not to have a federal requirement. It is one more option for the feds to tighten the strings and slowly take the the 2nd away. On the cover it sounds good, but it would be the stepping stone, the first step, to introduce, what seems like minor changes, in the bill so that I would no longer be able to purchase ammo without a permit or it would be made that everyone would be under the same laws and regulations as Illinoise. DC or Mass.


Well, in Heller versus DC, the supreme court allowed for the concept of reasonable regulation. It failed, however, to define what reasonable regulation is.

What is happening in parts of the the country clearly isn't reasonable in my conservative mind, and I was hoping they would expand the right rather than restrict it.

Liberty, not tyranny.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

the auto loading M&P is over 20 oz, probably closer to 30, and lets get real, I don't see myself carring around a double barrel shotgun in a Doc holiday rig. 
Carring big heavy guns basically sucks. I suspect most people that say they do usually dont.
S&W used to make a J frame airweight 38 with a 3" barrel and adjustable sights, Then they painted it black, slapped M&P on it and doubled the price. I would like to find one of the older ones, Who knows might find a beater snubby and just re barrel it.


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

Whenever I ride where grizz are, I carry my 454 Casull as I don't want to trust my 44 mag on them and **** them off. Have seen mt. lions just outside of town here on the elk refuge, but have yet to see one while hunting or riding. Would be cool to see though.

Joe, how is it looking for the opening of hunting in VA. on Sunday? I see there is a bill to allow it in the Va. legislature.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

we defeated it this year. It slipped through the senate under the radar, I had one senator flip flop, and several new ones that basically didnt know any better and got hit by the hunting lobby the day they were sworn in, it came up for vote in the senate like the first day of the session. Every one of those senators is getting slammed by calls and emails letting them know the error of their ways. then it hit the newspaper, was a huge uproar. We packed 300 people at the House committee meeting, VS 6 in favor. So it was killed. It will be back again next year.

I am on the look out for a Tracker titanium in 45 ACP, or the 360 in 3" in 357.


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## LadyNeigh (Jul 16, 2011)

I have a pretty good idea on self defense- done a bit of kick boxing and taekwondo...I can also get pretty lethal when I need to be


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

LadyNeigh said:


> I have a pretty good idea on self defense- done a bit of kick boxing and taekwondo...I can also get pretty lethal when I need to be


You reminded me of this old video.
Man Fights A Bear - YouTube


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> If that doesn't work, I'm going to pretend to get everything under control and nonchalantly take out my pistol and put a shot in it. :lol: If they don't get the hint at that point, it's their own **** fault.


Personally, I never carry a defensive firearm that isn't loaded and in its appropriate condition of readiness. Since I carry Glocks and revolvers, all I need to do to fire is press the trigger back.

If my pistol comes out of the holster, it's not to make a statement or a threat. It's because it's business time and my attacker is going to get shot the moment I clear leather. Once I reach that point, my attacker is going to have to be damned quick to disengage before he gets shot.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I carry cocked and locked and I hope I never have to use it but if I do I'm not going to mess around "putting a shot in". That's just foolish.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I have only unholstered my gun once in a dangerous situation. Oddly enough, my would be attacker suddenly relocated.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

This is a good video, it makes you think. 
I have carried a pistol w snake shot. But, honestly, if someone looked friendly then attacked me (unlikely to be successful b/c of my horse's reaction), I really question if I would have been able to react fast enough to get it out, and shoot it "safely" (not getting shot on my horse). I guess, if I were really worried...I would get a holster and practice.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> I carry cocked and locked and I hope I never have to use it but if I do I'm not going to mess around "putting a shot in". That's just foolish.


 
I normally have one or two in while it's in the holster. But there's always room for a third or fourth. And keep in mind this is before they've shown any signs of being dangerous, just making them think a little before they try anything.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

gunslinger said:


> I carried a .38 for awhile while riding in the back country.


The US Army originally used .45s. Around the time of the Spanish-American war they switched to .38s. Like you, they realized .38s had no stopping power and switched back to .45s. 

However...



> One night, on the edge of the Cohutta wilderness area, near Dally gap on Tumbling Creek road, one of the biggest darn bears I've ever laid my eyes on crossed the road in front of me. That big fellow looked almost as big as a horse.
> 
> We see bears frequently when riding in the mountains. It's always a thrill to see them, but never have I seen one as large as this fellow was.
> 
> ...


This reminds me of a funny "story" I heard some time back...

A big tough guy is on leave in Alaska and wants to do some hiking in the back country. Before he leaves, he stops in a gun store. He is concerned he will run across bears and wants protection. He looks at .44mag, .45, and even a .50. He asks the shop owner which would be better to stop a bear.

The shop owner informs him that they will all be about the same. However, it is very important that whichever gun is chosen, he makes sure to file down the front sight nice and smooth. Confused, the person asks "why is that?"

The shop owner replies "That's because after you shoot the bear, he will be so mad that when he rips the gun out of your hand and shoves it up your *** it won't hurt so much."



The consensus of people I know is that a handgun (while better than nothing) will not stop a bear. In addition, their sloping cranium can actually deflect most handgun caliber head shots and their body area is mostly fat/fur making vitals hard to target. I hope neither you nor I ever need to test that theory.


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## Singh559 (Feb 29, 2012)

Great video.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

the army switched from a single action easy trigger 45 to a double action 38's and people have the habit of blaming anyone but themselves. SO the 38 was blamed for not having any stopping power even though the problem was far more likely the poor marksmenship. Going back to a Single action 45 made the old school brass happy.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> I normally have one or two in while it's in the holster. But there's always room for a third or fourth.


I'm even more confused now than before.....
Does the above mean that you have only one or two rounds in your handgun?

Wow........where's the rest of the ammo?

When I carry a Glock 17 there is one in the chamber, sixteen in the magazine, and another magazine with 17 more on my belt offside.

Likewise when I carry a S&W revolver the cylinder is full and there is an extra speedloader on me somewhere.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> the army switched from a single action easy trigger 45 to a double action 38's and people have the habit of blaming anyone but themselves. SO the 38 was blamed for not having any stopping power even though the problem was far more likely the poor marksmenship. Going back to a Single action 45 made the old school brass happy.


Quoted for truth. The more things change the more they stay the same. Reports of poor "stopping power" of the M16 rifles and M4 carbines in Iraq and Afg are 99% due to the atrocious level of marksmanship skill of the average soldier.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

I've got several different pistols in the gun safe, and carry different ones depending on the situation.

I love the .45 acp, and carry it in urban areas because it doesn't over penetrate and lacks the velocity and energy necessary to penetrate several walls in a home, yet has the caliber necessary to provide a large a wound channel in something the size of a human target. This lack of "over penetration" made it a good choice for trench warfare in world war one where many men were confined in a close closed area.

My .44 mag, can shoot through several walls and this makes it less desirable in urban areas, but this extra energy and the ability to penetrate deeply, along with enough velocity to get the bullet to expand, makes it a much better choice for large game than a .38 special or .45 acp. The .357 mag, on the other hand, wouldn't be a bad choice for many of the same reasons, but lacks caliber.

As far as the 5.56 or .223, the army uses non-expanding ammo. This round penetrates, but doesn't leave as large a wound channel as the larger calibers. The military wanted it to wound, as it takes more men to support the wounded than it does the dead.

Most pistol calibers don't have the velocity to get reliable expansion, thus, they need large caliber. Even if a .38 expands, it seldom gets to the size that a .45 starts at.

MAKE BIG HOLES!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

gunslinger said:


> I love the .45 acp, and carry it in urban areas because it doesn't over penetrate and *lacks the velocity and energy necessary to penetrate several walls in a home* .


Testing that disproves your assumption: The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth - Page 1



gunslinger said:


> As far as the 5.56 or .223, the army uses non-expanding ammo. This round penetrates, but doesn't leave as large a wound channel as the larger calibers. *The military wanted it to wound, as it takes more men to support the wounded than it does the dead*..


Long standing rumor not supported by facts.



gunslinger said:


> Most pistol calibers don't have the velocity to get reliable expansion, thus, they need large caliber. Even if a .38 expands, it seldom gets to the size that a .45 starts at.


Testing that disproves more assumptions: Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations - M4Carbine.net Forums


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, if safety is the issue....I only ever carry a revolver...it can't jam, always fires, ordinarily drop tested to the max, and has a "built in" safety - hammer down.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

Joe4d said:


> the army switched from a single action easy trigger 45 to a double action 38's and people have the habit of blaming anyone but themselves. SO the 38 was blamed for not having any stopping power even though the problem was far more likely the poor marksmenship. Going back to a Single action 45 made the old school brass happy.


No doubt that marksmanship plays a role.

However, I find it hard to believe that each year's troops are considerably worse marksman than the last. You could certainly make jokes about today's level of marksmanship, but can we truly say it is exponentially worse than that of a soldier in 1945, 1918 or 1898? Was the 1898 Span-Am soldier truly that much worse than the 1870 Indian Wars soldier?

I would also argue that a .38 pistol is much easier to use effectively. Less weight, less recoil = easier to stay on target. That would seem to lend some advantage to a lesser marksman. 

All rhetorical questions. I am not aware of any conclusive evidence to support a marksmenship claim either way.


Bottom line is this... while you still need to be able to hit your target, when you DO hit, a .45 has more stopping power than a .38. The "bigger hole" concept someone already mentioned.


@gunslinger - I am with mildot on /45acp wall penetration. Of course it depends on the type of wall (i.e. solid vs. sheetrock) and ammo. Most folks I know suggest frag or hollow-point for "home defense" to avoid the wall penetration problem. At that point, a shotgun is a better solution anyway. (*edited to add - I have not and do not intend to test this theory - it is simply based on input for a variety of sources).



I do envy you folks that can carry while they ride. In my area, it is simply not an option.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

the 38 that was mentioned as abandoned by the Army was the first issued double action revolver, IE lonnnnnggggg heavy trigger pull. There wasnt really anyone any good with them as basically no one had really ever used them. Ever watch people either new shooters, or experienced shooters wiith all single action experience, try to shoot long double action pistols ? Quite frequently they end up shooting the ground. 
The Army had single action 45's. IE short no movement of the trigger until the gun went off , then the 38 double action, then the single action again. Which was pretty irrelevant anyways. Handguns were seldom used in combat outside hollywood. They were more a badge of rank for officers than anything else.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Let me say, I've done a little testing of my own, and from what I've determined the .45 acp doesn't penetrate near like the .44 mag does, but, I don't really see the need to discuss the merits of a particular firearm or caliber here in a horse forum as there are many gun forums to which this topic has already been debated on, and like horses, everyone has there own opinion and experience on the subject.

In my unscientific tests, the .45 won't shoot through a car door. It hits with a huge thump and makes a big dent, but no, doesn't penetrate, not one time, in 50 rounds. The .44 mag on the other hand, NEVER failed to penetrate a car door, not one time. Of course, I'm not talking about the tin boxes made today, and my car door test was on a 65 Ford Galaxy and granted they had a fair amount of metal in them in those days.

Back a few years ago, when the yellow pages were replaced every year with a large book, I took a pickup truck load home and did some rather extensive testing using bundles of yellow pages, both wet and dry.

I've shot at water filled milk jugs lined up in a row.

I've shot at modeling clay.

I've shot at Gypsum board in various configurations. I don't mean to be misunderstood on this, as most certainly a .45 will make it though dry wall and I don't mean to infer that it's safe to fire in an urban setting but rather, it's a medium velocity round and sheds energy rather quickly.

In the early 80's, about the time that Kevlar became popular, me and several policemen fired many different calibers at Kevlar panels. Only three pistol calibers penetrated, the .44 mag, the .357 mag, and surprising, the .32 acp. Knives and arrows all made it through. 

As far as the links you've posted, well, let me just state that if you look you'll find just as many that indicate different results and this discussion goes back at least to the time of the late Jack O'conner and Elmer Keith.

My experience with the 5.56mm comes from the military. I served shortly after the switch from the .30 calibers, and was told during basic training that wounding was better than killing. Now, I can't say an infantryman will buy into that theory, but that's what we were told at the time. Granted, the lighter weight of the weapon and the ability to carry more ammo certainly played a part, along with the increase rate of fire but again, the old timers still love there m-14's as the danged plastic rifles earned a bad reputation for jamming. To this day I still don't own one but have several non military buddy's who seem fascinated by them. Maybe eating and sleeping with one soured me on them, don't really know, but nice wood stocks and fine optics interest me more.

Personally, I don't care what anyone chooses to carry. Carry what you're most comfortable with, and if your not comfortable carrying, then go unarmed or carry chemical repellant, air horn, stick, knife or other tool. Personally I'd carry a cop but they're just to darn big and heavy and some of them can be rather hard to live with.

I think Jeff Cooper responded when asked why he carried a .45, "because they don't make a .50".

When it comes right down to it, the end result comes down to the indian, not the arrow. Choose your weapon.


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## karebear444 (Feb 3, 2012)

Good video. Thanks for sharing


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Another Glock fan here. Mine is pretty old now but has never jammed. It was one the first imported to this country and still going strong.

NH allows an open carry without a permit and as long as you aren't a convicted felon they issue concealed permits easily. I only have a permit purely because my jacket will fall over the gun when I wander the woods. Unfortunately it isn't bears that worry me here.


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## VT Trail Trotters (Jul 21, 2011)

SueNH said:


> Another Glock fan here. Mine is pretty old now but has never jammed. It was one the first imported to this country and still going strong.
> 
> NH allows an open carry without a permit and as long as you aren't a convicted felon they issue concealed permits easily. I only have a permit purely because my jacket will fall over the gun when I wander the woods. Unfortunately it isn't bears that worry me here.


Guessing your from NH Sue? But in NH yeah you need a permit to conceal carry in public. In the woods you dont, and its good idea to have one in the woods in NH and Vermont for sure. Vermont no permit is need to conceal carry at all, just gotta be 18+. And bringing some handgun on a trail ride alone or with someone else is a good idea.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Now I know what to ask for for my birthday.


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## LadyPony (Mar 26, 2012)

Thanks for the advice


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## MorabMom (Mar 30, 2012)

I haven't read all 20 pages of this thread, but it's a great thread, and I'm glad someone put it out there. I was in this very predicament many years ago, all alone at the stables, and approached by a very large man. I still had my horse by the reins, but I was on the ground. I did exactly as the video showed - I kept my horse between the man and me, and he eventually left. Talk about shaken up!

I now carry a handgun (Bersa Firestorm 9mm) as Texas is a CHL state. I'm not quite sure what my horse would do if I had to fire it, but I believe I'd be better off taking the chance. I've been on the wrong end of a gun too many times - it won't happen again.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

VT Trail Trotters said:


> *But in NH yeah you need a permit to conceal carry in public. In the woods you dont*, and its good idea to have one in the woods in NH and Vermont for sure.


The bolded statement above is incorrect and will get someone arrested and jailed.

You cannot carry a concealed handgun about your person in public in NH, which includes ANYWHERE outside your own property (yes, that means the woods too), without a NH pistol and revolver license.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

Correct. You need a pistol permit if the gun is hidden. If it is in the open and in plain view you do not.

Hidden can mean just you jacket falling over it. Pistol permits are easy to get in NH provided you aren't a loonie or a felon so why take the chance.




mildot said:


> The bolded statement above is incorrect and will get someone arrested and jailed.
> 
> You cannot carry a concealed handgun about your person in public in NH, which includes ANYWHERE outside your own property (yes, that means the woods too), without a NH pistol and revolver license.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

mildot said:


> You cannot carry a concealed handgun about your person in public in NH, which includes ANYWHERE outside your own property (yes, that means the woods too), without a NH pistol and revolver license.


I need to add to that: or any out of state pistol license that is recognized by New Hampshire.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I have a non-resident NH permit which allows me to carry in a lot of states the my SC license doesn't. Easy to get - $20 and an application. 

I think we are getting close to a national permit (or a reciprocal permit that allows us to carry in any state that allows CW).


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

iridehorses said:


> I have a non-resident NH permit which allows me to carry in a lot of states the my SC license doesn't. Easy to get - $20 and an application.


It used to be $20, it's now $100. Mine's up for renewal in July and I saw the fee increase in the current form: http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/nhsp/ssb/permitslicensing/documents/dssp260.pdf




iridehorses said:


> I think we are getting close to a national permit (or a reciprocal permit that allows us to carry in any state that allows CW).


I don't think we're close at all. It would be nice though for both state and federal governments to follow the full faith and credit clause all the time, not just when it suits them.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

From $20 to $100?! I guess they caught on to how important that license is to us easterners.

I hear some blurb on local news a few weeks ago about the reciprocal license getting closer to reality.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

God you guys have some seriously loose gun laws in the USA O.O

I haven't read up on it but here in Aus they're REALLY strict about who gets to carry a gun, any gun MUST be registered, and they only allow you to carry certain kinds. I don't think you're allowed to carry concealed here but I'm not sure. I've never seen a cop without some sort of weapon in plain view, even plain clothes cops... nearly all of them carry a tazer or pistol or both. We also have strict knife laws and I'm pretty sure pepper spray is illegal for anyone but the cops.

I was actually looking for someone with a gun today to see if they could shoot a sheep I found that was in a real bad way after being mauled by a pack of dogs (I didn't see them but one dog on its own surely wouldn't do that much damage). I couldn't find anyone. I'm not actually sure if it's legal to shoot someone else's stock, even if it's a welfare issue. Probably not. But I couldn't just leave it.

On to self defence on the trail. I nearly always ride alone, usually I can't abide company when I'm out and my horse is an idiot in company anyway. Sometimes I ride alone at night. I've run across a couple of dodgy characters, only ever at night and only ever riding alone, but a horse snorting and blowing at them has always been enough to keep them away. Monty being part Arab, he has a pretty good sense of someone's intentions. He'll usually tell me 100% whether I need to worry about someone, and if I do, he'll refuse to go close to them. I don't know what he'd do if THEY got too close to HIM, we haven't had a situation where a bad person approached.

I do sometimes walk at night with my dog, but she is decent sized (on the taller side of medium) and she has a massive bark, most people who don't know her are surprised she's not enormous. I've lied and said she's part pitbull and a trained attack dog before.. she's neither, but it makes people leave me alone. My other dog is a border collie, rottie cross and she actually would attack someone with less than honourable intentions - she was abused as a pup and still has issues - and I've only heard her "I'm going to kill you" bark once, when a man came and knocked on the door looking for someone. Guy gave me the creeps and the dog was absolutely adamant she would kill him if I opened the screen door. Her bark that day was as scary as hell and scared me more than the guy did, which says a lot because I'm not very confident with _nice_ people, let alone people who creep me out.

Long story short nobody in my city will attack someone packing a horse and two decent sized dogs, one being aggressive! A gun will make people more likely to attack you from what I've seen - druggies will see it as a direct provocation and we have a LOT of druggies in this city - but give a girl a dog and a horse, even a girl my size, and bad people keep their distance.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

You are right about that, especially with the dogs! Here is my weapon of choice:








But then I back it up with a pistol. And a horse. And a shotgun.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> God you guys have some seriously loose gun laws in the USA O.O


As it should be.




blue eyed pony said:


> A gun will make people more likely to attack you from what I've seen - druggies will see it as a direct provocation and we have a LOT of druggies in this city


With all due respect, nothing could be further from the truth and it is clear you do not have the first idea about the legalities or the reality of using a firearm for self defense. No surprise, considering the culture and the laws you grew up in.

Real life violent encounters are not hollywood with lots of hammer cocking, macho talk, and posturing. They are unbelievably fast and unbelievably violent with little to no posturing or conversation.

If I have to draw down on someone it will be because I am in fear of imminent death or severe injury and my attacker will have but a few seconds to change his mind before bullets start entering into him.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

mildot said:


> As it should be.


+1

Funny, but when I read the "loose" law observation, I thought the opposite. It's not that the US has loose laws, it's that many other countries have absurdly strict laws.

It is a cultural thing. The thinking behind this is that the US culture has traditionally stressed individual rights, self-reliance and self-determination. Self defense, for example, is considered a God given right (imbued by the creator) and documents such as the Bill of Rights merely enumerate those rights (as opposed to grant them).

Many other countries lean toward the "government as protector" philosophy. While i have my beliefs, I'm not putting down either system, just pointing out one reason for the cultural differences.

And yes, OZ has some very strict guns rules. Not that many years ago they further increased the restrictions. Many people were forced to surrender their handguns to authorities to be destroyed. Look around the world and it is no surprise that many governments (and criminals) would like the populace to be unarmed and unable to defend themselves. Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Last year, we had visitors from Australia. We took them out shooting - 9mm, 357s & 44 magnums. They LOVED it.

In Arizona, with some restrictions, you can carry concealed without a license.



blue eyed pony said:


> ...A gun will make people more likely to attack you from what I've seen - druggies will see it as a direct provocation and we have a LOT of druggies in this city - but give a girl a dog and a horse, even a girl my size, and bad people keep their distance.


Not even close to true where I live. The guys running drugs up from Mexico thru the desert wouldn't think twice about killing your dog, horse and you. The guys doing home invasions in the city close to me don't worry about dogs, or home alarms. They go in fast, kill if needed, take stuff and are out in minutes. They are gone before the cops get there.

And the advantage to *CONCEALED* carry is that no one knows if you are carrying or not.

I only ride near where I live, so I don't carry. Mid-day in the desert near me, no one is running drugs or doing home invasions. They SURE are not looking for a rider to rob. But when I hike, or when my son-in-law goes out on a dirt bike, we carry. Always. The US government has given up on controlling the border, and now mostly posts signs warning hikers to be careful.






Why do I carry a gun? Because cops are to heavy to carry and too big to conceal...


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

As far as I am concerned, everyone on this earth has a GOD Given right to live and to protect one’s self from harm. To think that any individual needs permission from a government to protect your life, your family or your property to absurd to say the least.
blue eyed pony, to think that your country has taken away that GOD Given right for self-preservation and the possible right to live, by taking your right for self-defense away from everyone in your country is unthinkable. Here in the U.S. they are trying to do the same thing. By requiring a permit for a handgun or a permit to conceal a hand gun, also goes against the principles of Nature and the principles of our Founding Fathers when they wrote the Constitution. Government, here and abroad, does not want an armed populace. Government wants obedient subjects, not a populace that has the ability to protect themselves, their family or their property. 
Criminals and bad people love the fact of an unarmed society. It makes their evil ways much easier, just as governments love an unarmed society.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Maybe so where you are but here in my city if you are packing heat some people will see it as a direct challenge, like you're carrying only to dare them to do something against you. Especially if you're packing illegal heat. Teenagers, mostly, but some adults are just as bad.

My experience with knives is not pretty (knives are all you can get at my age and even that is a challenge, it's illegal to sell a knife to any person under the age of 18 in Australia - even a butter knife - if it's made of metal). At my high school, if you carried a knife, you got bashed. So a lot of people carried bigger knives, and naturally they got bashed up worse. One kid got put in hospital because another kid bashed him up for his knife.

Oddly enough, we have less gun crime here in Aus than in the US. Perhaps because fewer people have guns. Perhaps because we're taught from the very beginning to be scared of them and not use them.

Guns terrify me. I know a few people with guns, and I know they only have them for fox or rabbit shooting, but I'm still scared of those people regardless of the fact that their guns only come out for hunting trips, or putting their animals down. I play first person shooter games a lot, but a game is nothing like real life, and I won't even use the air guns in side show alley in real life.

The really bad drug culture here is mostly restricted to the bigger cities. Yes there are people who would kill me, my horse and my dogs without a second thought. I don't get involved with them. I keep my distance. I choose to run if I have a bad feeling about someone, rather than stick around to wait and see.

But, someone is high, their perceptions are skewed. I've heard of druggies bashing someone over the head because they hallucinated a knife being pulled. You pull a gun on a druggie, and if they're packing they'll pull theirs on you. They have no self-preservation. They're packing illegally. An illegal weapon is most likely unregistered, and it's more than likely it doesn't have a ballistics profile. The police wouldn't be able to link it with a crime unless they had the gun itself and compared a shot they fired to a bullet they found at the scene. An instant of hesitation in a situation like that and you would be the one with a bullet in your brain.

I may not be familiar with the laws, having absolutely no need or desire to know what I can and can't do with a gun in this country, but I do know what I've seen and experienced in my town. The majority of gun owners here own land and have their guns so they can shoot injured or sick livestock, or they're rabbit or fox hunters. Most of them are honest, reliable people. But there ARE the bad eggs, and most druggies are paranoid and will assume the worst of everyone. I've only met one who wasn't paranoid, and he was so high I'm not sure he was aware there was anyone else around him.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

And to defend my country, most people don't seem to mind. You are allowed to arm yourself here, as long as you pass police clearance and tell them what they want to hear about your reasons for wanting a gun. It's not THAT hard. They're just really strict about WHO (nobody with a record, nobody with a mental illness, nobody with a history of drugs... the list goes on but it's fairly reasonable stuff), and WHAT. It's fair enough that sawnoff shotguns and fully automatic weapons are illegal, I mean really, who needs that kind of firepower? We don't have bears (koalas are not bears), our most dangerous animals are snakes and spiders. Unless, like me, you count certain criminals as animals. In which case you only need enough firepower to drop a human being anyway, and depending on where you hit them, you don't need THAT much. I've heard of people being shot by BB guns and having to be put in ICU... from watching the news, it's not like they would lie about verifiable facts!

With all our strict gun laws, you would think we wouldn't still have a massive public outcry and calls for MORE regulations whenever someone gets carjacked or robbed at gunpoint, but we do! The vast majority of Australians support our strict gun laws.

FWIW, here, a homeowner is allowed to use reasonable force to repel an intruder, and "reasonable force" means different things to different people so that could be anything from bashing them over the head with a frying pan to shooting them in the foot. Killing them is not considered reasonable force. What gives any person the right to kill any other person? Even in self defence? Surely it would be better to disable them, neutralise the threat, without actually killing them. You don't need a gun to effectively disable an intruder or attacker. An unarmed populace is a good thing in that sense. Only the really hardcore criminals arm themselves with REAL guns. Some of the small-time crims use fake guns to scare people but it's the drug lords and the bank robbers who use sawnoff shotguns etc.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

blue eyed pony said:


> What gives any person the right to kill any other person? Even in self defence?.


Someone who tries to take my life forfeits the right to his. Simple as that.



blue eyed pony said:


> Surely it would be better to disable them, neutralise the threat, without actually killing them.


You are living in a fantasy and it is clear you have never been in a street fight.



blue eyed pony said:


> You don't need a gun to effectively disable an intruder or attacker. .


Are you willing to bet your life on that? If so, go right ahead, but don't presume to make that bet for others.




blue eyed pony said:


> An unarmed populace is a good thing in that sense..


Pol Pot surely thought so.




blue eyed pony said:


> Only the really hardcore criminals arm themselves with REAL guns. Some of the small-time crims use fake guns to scare people but it's the drug lords and the bank robbers who use sawnoff shotguns etc.


That may be so in Australia, though I doubt it. It certainly is not the case in the US.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Perhaps the average criminal wouldn't be as easily able to arm themself with hardcore weapons under stricter gun laws though - here in Aus if the police find weapons when they make an arrest it's a big enough deal to make national TV. I've never heard of a gun haul making the news in the US. Does that mean it happens often so it's not news-worthy? Or do US citizens just not really care if there's a gun in someone's house?

There seems to be a big cultural difference. I won't visit the US because the gun laws are so free. I like my country, flawed though it may be. I'm sure many of you wouldn't visit Australia because our gun laws are so strict.

I haven't been in a fight, no, because I avoid those places and those people. I do know people who HAVE been badly injured in fights, and invariably, they have been armed in some way. Invariably it's the ones who flaunt that fact who get hurt because of it. My high school had a culture where it was "cool" to be armed, but it was also dangerous because some of the delinquents would see "weapon" and think "threat", and go out of their way to remove that threat. I never went armed. I think that's why I never got hurt. Don't get me wrong, I've been threatened plenty of times. That's the kind of school it was. Still is if you believe the press, I left almost two years ago now. I would have graduated last year had I stayed.

I feel like having weapons on your person or in your house makes you more of a target here in Aus because it's so hard to get them legally. Criminals get their guns from somewhere, and that somewhere has to be through stealing them from someone who acquired them legally, or buying them through the black market. Any given house in the US has a far higher chance of having a gun in it than any given house here in Aus because the laws are so much more relaxed. Less risk to any given US gun owner that their gun will be stolen.

Of the people I know who own guns, one has a bullmastiff. BIG dog, and it'd take a lot to drop him. The other, I only know owns a gun because he told me he had to shoot one of his horses after the mare broke her leg. People aren't open about owning guns here. They don't debate what's the best gun to carry on public forums, that's for sure.

I just find it very interesting that it's the people who own guns who kick up a fuss over minor tightenings of the laws governing their weapons, and the people who don't own guns are all for it. I mean I'm sure none of you would lose your weapons due to tighter laws, if you have them for the right reasons and you don't have a criminal past.

I think that we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, though, for the same reasons I'll agree to disagree with the gear checkers at my pony club on a number of their rules. It's too hard to argue.

I like my country, I think the laws we have are mostly well founded and fair. You like your country and you want your gun laws the way they are.

I'm sharing my opinions based on where I'm from, where most crims don't actually pack guns because it's so darn hard to get them (do you know what a gun is worth on the black market here? I don't know exact amounts, but the news stations are always quoting large amounts for street values for weapons, and they legally have to report facts). They're more likely to have a knife or a used syringe. You, on the other hand, are sharing your opinions based on a country where guns are easy to come by, so it's easier for small-time criminals to get their hands on them.

Our opinions differ because we live in different countries, under different laws, and we've grown up with completely different perceptions of guns. God gave us our hands and teeth to defend ourselves with, PEOPLE gave us guns and knives.


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

*Here is some information on theAustalian Gun Ban*

*March 2000*
*Crime up Down Under*
After Australian lawmakers passed widespread gun bans, owners were
forced to surrender about 650,000 weapons, which were later slated for
destruction, according to statistics from the Australian Sporting
Shooters Association.
The bans were not limited to so-called “assault” weapons or
military-type firearms, but also to .22 rifles and shotguns. The effort
cost the Australian government about $500 million, said association
representative Keith Tidswell.
Though lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer

country, the nation’s crime statistics tell a different story:

Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent; 
Assaults are up 8.6 percent; 
Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent; 
In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed
300 percent; 
In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been
dropping steadily; 
There has been a reported “dramatic increase” in home burglaries
and assaults on the elderly.
 
*AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN – April 2009*
It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.
Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:
· In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent. 
· Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
· Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:
· Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent. 
· During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent. 
· Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent. 
· Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent. 
· At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent. 
· Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.
While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner.
Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," D.C. Examiner, April 8, 2009.



And here is more
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/indepth/gun-crime


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Blue,

The sentiment toward gun use and lisencing in the US varies as much as the American people vary. IT is in no way unified and comes up for frequent debate.


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

I certainly do respect your opinion and would respect your countries laws if I visited. There is still a lot of crime in your country just as there is in the U.S. I just refuse to let my government dictate to me as to if I have a right to protect myself and mine. I do not believe in a permit system with needing a CCW permit. I believe The Second Amendment to our Constitution is the only permit needed.


blue eyed pony said:


> Perhaps the average criminal wouldn't be as easily able to arm themself with hardcore weapons under stricter gun laws though - here in Aus if the police find weapons when they make an arrest it's a big enough deal to make national TV. I've never heard of a gun haul making the news in the US. Does that mean it happens often so it's not news-worthy? Or do US citizens just not really care if there's a gun in someone's house?
> 
> There seems to be a big cultural difference. I won't visit the US because the gun laws are so free. I like my country, flawed though it may be. I'm sure many of you wouldn't visit Australia because our gun laws are so strict.
> 
> ...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Yes, our countries and cultures differ. I liked my visit to Australia (1986, Darwin), but have no desire to move there - to the relief of many Australians, I'm sure.



blue eyed pony said:


> ...God gave us our hands and teeth to defend ourselves with, PEOPLE gave us guns and knives.


Or as the old saying goes, "God didn't create all men equal. Col Colt did!"










A year ago, my neighbor (60 year old woman with a bum leg) thought she heard someone trying to force a window. She called the cops. They arrived in just 35 minutes. I told her if it happened again, to give me a call. I'm pushing 54 real hard, a bit chubby & wear bifocals, but I'd cross the street to check on a neighbor.

And if there are 3-4 guys there, then my 44 will help even the odds. Maybe. Or maybe they will shoot me. But it is a safe bet that my odds would be better than if I cross the street with my "hands and teeth to defend [myself and others] with"...


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

MorabMom said:


> I'm not quite sure what my horse would do if I had to fire it, but I believe I'd be better off taking the chance.



This reminds me of a story I heard awhile back. Seems a fellow wanted to rent a horse to hunt elk off of.

He asked the horses owner if he could shoot off the horse and the owner replied "sure"!

Well, the fellow came back all black and blue and confronted the horse owner with " I though you said I could shoot off this horse"?

The owner looked at him and said "Sure, I said you could shoot off the horse, but I never said what the horse would do"!!!


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

In the USA we have a constitutional right to arm ourselves. This is for two reasons. 

The first reason is to protect ourselves from would be attackers.

The second and most important reason is to protect ourselves from would be dictators. We are always having government rules and regulations trying to limit our civil rights; however, if they try to totally destroy our freedom, we can band together to form a militia and protect ourselves. Our forefathers wanted to prevent us from being taken over by the Adolf Hitler types. Our government is far from perfect, but it beats most of the other things out there.

As far as self protection, in my neighborhood, even the ancient little old ladies keep a gun by their bed, and if somebody breaks in when they are home alone, the little old ladies are going to shoot the devil out of them. There will be no charges filed. The little old lady might even get an award.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

blue eyed pony said:


> it's illegal to sell a knife to any person under the age of 18 in Australia - even a butter knife - if it's made of metal).
> 
> Oddly enough, we have less gun crime here in Aus than in the US. Perhaps because fewer people have guns. Perhaps because we're taught from the very beginning to be scared of them and not use them.


Assuming this is true (per captial? total gun crime? what counts as a gun crime, etc.) I would say that having less gun crimes is probably linked to having less guns. That's a logical argument.

However, your laws also seem to imply there is a much higher incidence of butter knife violence in Aus than in the US. 

The point is that people will commit violent acts with or without access to guns. You can outlaw butter knives, and they will resort to rocks, or a chair, or a car.

A big difference, and one that applies to the original topic, is that firearms represent an equalizing force when used in self defense.

A typical 250lb violent adult male vs a 100lb young girl (or out of shape middle aged guy): both have rocks, both have sticks, both have knives... the outcome will typically favor the 250lb violent attacker.

Give both a gun and they are essentially equals in the confrontation. A typical attacker will only attack when the odds favor him. You don't usually read about professional football players getting mugged - it is usually some old lady. Attackers look for weakness. A young girl riding her horse alone in the woods is an attractive target. Put a gun on her hip and she is no longer a target. That's simple fact.



> Guns terrify me.


As they do many people. As the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, that fear has been taught to you and drilled in by the government and media.

A gun in the hand of an unbalanced and unsafe person terrifies me. I was in a sporting good store last week buying a rifle and the halfwit down the counter kept sweeping me with a shotgun. Sure it was unloaded, but that is unsafe practice and makes the hair on my neck stand up.

On the other hand, I am at the range often and attend many firearm events. There are many VERY responsible people I am around who constantly carry loaded firearms. Knowing these people as I do, I feel more safe than ever knowing there is a loaded firearm nearby being handled by a person who "has my back."

Not getting political here, but Pres. Obama made an interesting quip a while back. He is considered an anti-gun person, but he told the press that he has no worries about his daughters dating because they are accompanied by armed agents. It was a joke, but it highlights the hypocrisy. Many "anti-gun" celebrities in the US either have armed guards with them or have full carry permits themselves. They encourage the fear of guns in you (us) but make sure they have ready access to these same guns.

It is all about power and a belief that these politicians and celebrities are above everyone else and don't have to follow the same rules. They want the ability to stop you from defending yourself without allowing you the same.

It's not the gun you should be scared of. It is the person. If they want to harm you, they don't need a gun. Heck, it's easier to run you down with a car (and get away with it).


One more minor point:



celeste said:


> In the USA we have a constitutional right to arm ourselves.


Minor semantic quibble. The Declaration of Independence states: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

The Constitution has ten rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights. These rights are not "constitutional rights" as they are not granted by the constitution. The bill of rights simply recognizes these rights as so fundamental it specifically prohibits the government from restricting them.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Tazmanian Devil said:


> One more minor point:
> 
> 
> Minor semantic quibble. The Declaration of Independence states: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
> ...


I'm glad this is not a test.
I never did too well in history class........


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

Celeste said:


> I'm glad this is not a test.
> I never did too well in history class........


 At least I'm agreeing with you.

It just sticks with me because when you consider it a right granted by the constitution you are effectively saying the government "grants" you that right - free speech, freedom of religion, right to privacy, right to bear arms. Any right the government can grant you, they can just as easily take away.

Can you imagine how "revolutionary" that concept was at the time it was written? We basically came from a system where "God" selected from a special class of people (aristocracy) to have one granted the divine right and power to rule over the "lesser" classes. Our system of government stood that all on its ear.

"All men created equal," right to free speech and to redress the government. Right to bear arms in the event the government got out of control (disclaimer - I am not suggesting revolution, just pointing out what the framers intended). That's all controversial enough now. Imagine it in the context of the 1700s. These guys had come juevos.


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## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

mildot said:


> It used to be $20, it's now $100. Mine's up for renewal in July and I saw the fee increase in the current form: http://www.nh.gov/safety/divisions/nhsp/ssb/permitslicensing/documents/dssp260.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think we're close at all. It would be nice though for both state and federal governments to follow the full faith and credit clause all the time, not just when it suits them.



That's non resident permits. I believe resident permits are still $10. There would have been a giant uproar here if they raised the resident fees too much. In the north country every other car has got a gun in it. The resident licenses come out of the local police dept or the selectmans office if they have no PD.

Section 159:6 License to Carry.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Tazmanian Devil said:


> One more minor point:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually the "Bill of Rights" are ammendments to the Constitutions. They just happen to have been the first 10, all ratified together and called the "Bill of Rights". Some have been suspended for periods of time even as resently as the past 10 years the. Like all ammendments to the US Constitution they can be removed by means of an ammendment (all changes are ammendments. Even the act of repealing an ammendment).


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Blue eyed. The vast majority of murders/attacks (by a per capita measure) do not occur in the agricultural areas in the US, either. They are in the cities. And, automatic weapons and sawed off shotguns are not legal in the US, either - without special permits that are _not_ handed out like candy...and actually are rarely approved. This is why there is semi-auto. 

The US does not have loose gun laws, they are getting stricter every year. This is a bad thing. People in congress believe that if something is illegal, no one will do it - they like to use narcotics as their shining example of how true this is.:wink:

Unless and until illegal drug trade is completely eliminated in the US, one should not need a permit to carry any legal weapon, concealed or not. What could that measure possibly prevent? A nut from committing a mass random shooting? Nothing is going to prevent that. Criminals do not care about the law, including and especially "gun laws". 

If criminals attacked only those that believe in strict gun control, we would all be safe....they are both dangerous.


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## Elky (Apr 17, 2010)

Criminals For Gun Control


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

This thread is awesome...it illustrates a wide variety of thoughts of guns, gun control effectiveness, and pros and cons going each way.
Here in AZ, if you can pass the NICS check (FBI instant background check), you can buy any firearm on the shelf, with the exception of fully automatic firearms.
To buy those, you need a Class 3 license from the ATF. It takes 4-6 months for the paperwork to go through to get "authorization" to own one.
There is currently a law either on Jan Brewer's desk or she signed it, that permits the use of suppressed firearms for hunting.
One more on its way to her desk is legislation permitting carry of a sidearm while hunting.
I bowhunt a lot, and having a handgun on my hip is a beautiful thing.

A woman once asked me why i felt the need to carry a firearm on my hip in a grocery store.
My reply was simple.
I told her,"Maam, i carry for 3 reasons. First, it's my right to defend myself and my family by any means necessary. Secondly, i never know who I am going to run into on any given day,, be they friend or foe, wanting to wishe me well or do me harm. Lastly, it is my personal choice. Lethal force is not something to be taken lightly, and I pray i never have to use it. I prefer to use it as a deterrent, that my presence alone might persuade someone from doing something stupid."
She seemed a bit perplexed, as though i had just thrown all her preconceived notions into a blender, and hit puree.
I make zero excuses for carrying a firearm.
I am very proud to carry, and do so all the time when lawful to do so.
I choose to be a wolf in sheep's clothing, so if that other wolf wants to take a bite, they get a nasty surprise.
If confronted with force, i have the opportunity to respond in kind.
They cannot testify if theyre on a slab.


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## MorabMom (Mar 30, 2012)

I read a lot of the threads where people are TERRIFIED of guns. I used to be the same way, and then I got out of retail sales. Yep - the first time I had a gun pulled on me, I peed my pants. I was more pro-active the next couple of times, although the establishment was still robbed and I was still scared to death. After that, a home invasion where I was duct-taped and told to keep my head down. Fortunately, the idiots weren't interested in a skinny girl. The last time was in 1992 when my psychotic ex-boyfriend held my husband and me hostage for a number of hours. We lived - he didn't.

The whole point of this post is that if you're afraid of guns, go to a shooting range and have the range master teach you how to shoot. After that, the fear goes away. I guess it's the fear of the unknown. Now that I know how a gun works and how accurate it is from certain distances, I don't freak out when I see someone carrying one. 

My grandma kept a .38 behind the counter of her liquor store ~


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## VT Trail Trotters (Jul 21, 2011)

I dont conceal carry, yet. But i have a 5" blade folding knife i always have thats really for just general use. But if you can shoot a pistol well and properly and want to carry, go and get a permit if you need one if your state.. Vermont its not. I support women that shoot and will carry. We need more women to be into firearms and archery too would be awesome! Its a great and if done properly a safe sport to do, you can get your family into it if they want to. But still even go and do a pistol or shooting course with your local range and see if you like it and if you do get into firearms cause its lots of fun, you can meet great people at the range and gun shops.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

id recommend OC pepper spray over a knife, or even a gun in most cases. Unlike a bullet you can undo what you did. And ask any one who has been OC''d that stuff is no joke. Get a bigger can maybe as big around as a quarter. Not the itty bitty keychain models, although anythign is better than nothing. Attach another can to the dasboard of your car.


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## VT Trail Trotters (Jul 21, 2011)

I would too Joe, but the knife is for not really self defense. And i have gotten some pepper spray in my eyes and even a tiny amount kills! Its not fun and it burns. So gun or pepper spray works. But id go with a gun.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

MorabMom, your story almost made me pee my pants. OMG. I can't believe you had all that happen. We have had several close calls. My children were already buckled into the back seat of our truck in Macon one night. I was about to get into my seat. A man pushed me, started into the back seat, and reached for my daughter who was 7 at the time. My husband took out his gun. The man relocated rapidly. Without the gun, I don't know what would have happened. It is possible that we could have physically fought him off. This way, nobody got hurt. I would never go into Macon unarmed any more. I also carry when I ride. I pulled my gun out when a man drove his truck at my horse and attempted to hit us. Again, I didn't actually have to shoot him. I will say that both men had very close calls.........

I am a very peaceful person. I would never ever hurt anyone unless my life or the life of my family was at risk.


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## MorabMom (Mar 30, 2012)

IMO, a knife is a must in any situation, threatening or not. I like the pepper spray idea, but if I'm downwind, my horse jest might leave w/o me. I carry the spray (and my handgun) when I'm out walking my 5, count 'em FIVE dogs. I don't want to shoot anybody's pooch who might threaten my 3 lil papillons, and I don't want another dog to get close enuf to be killed by my Aussies.

I think the safest way to ride is with a group, or at least a partner who can help. There are those of us who don't have anyone to ride with just yet, so I'll hang on to my Bersa.

On another note, my husband and I had our very first trail ride this past weekend and it was great......until his horse spooked while standing still and my hubby tumbled off his back like a sack of potatoes. Now, see there? Had he been too lame to get back on his horse, I just might've had to put him out of his misery. Jest kidding, folks - I was actually looking for a place for life-flight to land, but he was okay and able to ride back to the trailer.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I personally would not carry pepper spray, its aerosolized and could to easily end up inflicting me or others, and I really wouldn't put it on my dash board in the summer. A revolver has zero chance of going off accidently, so that is my first choice. A larger knife isn't exaclty handy to carry and the training required to feel confident in using it is - to much effort for most....so back to my first choice. I think concealed weapon laws are ridiculous......criminals are not going to go get one, nor are they not going to carry. Its insane.

I also think situational awareness goes a looong way.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I always carry a knife, but I don't even think of it as a self-defense weapon. I just carry it in case my horse were to somehow get tangled up in lead ropes, reins, etc. I once tied a horse that went psycho and fell. If I hadn't had a knife, I might not have been able to get her released safely. I cut the rope.


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## MorabMom (Mar 30, 2012)

Oh, shugar - THAT's a BAD situation. Fast thinking on your husband's part. We don't have kids, but at the time all of this crap happened, I was just becoming an adult. The 1992 incident really was the worst because it was a culmination of 4 yrs of stalking. Scary as hell, but if you think about 'what if?', you'll manage to get yourself out of a lot of scary situations.

You take care, okay?


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Celeste said:


> I always carry a knife, but I don't even think of it as a self-defense weapon. I just carry it in case my horse were to somehow get tangled up in lead ropes, reins, etc. I once tied a horse that went psycho and fell. If I hadn't had a knife, I might not have been able to get her released safely. I cut the rope.


I carry one of those, too...it is all of 3 inches (folded), and has been used twice. But, like you said...it doesn't seem like much of a "reliable" weapon.


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