# Retraining a 'spur trained' horse?



## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

What you described is not a spur-trained horse, it's a horse that is advanced and obedient enough in it's training to go off just seat and leg aids, which is absolutely great if the rider is capable enough to do so. He's in a curb because it doesn't get touched and he's probably been trained for WP or such, which requires a curb bit after 5yrs of age.
Personally, I think you should keep looking for a horse if you aren't comfortable with the fact that the horse's cues are from your seat and leg. I have no doubt the horse can be ridden English with contact, but I see no reason to start direct reining if he's so perfect without any reins (aside from the stop). I can't say for sure, but I can't see you getting docked for the fact that you don't use your reins to steer.
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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Iseul said:


> What you described is not a spur-trained horse, it's a horse that is advanced and obedient enough in it's training to go off just seat and leg aids, which is absolutely great if the rider is capable enough to do so. He's in a curb because it doesn't get touched and he's probably been trained for WP or such, which requires a curb bit after 5yrs of age.
> Personally, I think you should keep looking for a horse if you aren't comfortable with the fact that the horse's cues are from your seat and leg. I have no doubt the horse can be ridden English with contact, but I see no reason to start direct reining if he's so perfect without any reins (aside from the stop). I can't say for sure, but I can't see you getting docked for the fact that you don't use your reins to steer.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly my thoughts too....


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

Why do they require curb bits on horses? I understand there are some things you can't do with a snaffle that you can do with others, but I personally would never be okay with putting a curb bit on my horse for no other reason than 'they told me to do it.'


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

To show that they don't need the bit and/or that the cues are refined enough that the judge cannot see the cue applied. WP is all judged on how much of a "pleasure" the horse is to ride (and now flashiness..but not the point), having to do much work (visibly) does not project the image of a pleasant, easy to ride horse.

I am curious what your issue with curb bits is all about though. I use a curb sometimes and barely have to move my arm(s).
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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

OTTB said:


> Why do they require curb bits on horses? I understand there are some things you can't do with a snaffle that you can do with others, but I personally would never be okay with putting a curb bit on my horse for no other reason than 'they told me to do it.'


Then don't do it, but a horse that works mostly of seat legs and neck reining is going to have to learn all about constant contact with a snaffle.....my horse is a finished reining horse and he works in a correction bit, and that is exactly what it is, used for correction, picking up a shoulder etc, it's a very light contact bit....in my own personal opinion I wouldn't want myself or anyone else to put my horse in a snaffle and have all that direct rein contact......not after all that work to get him snappy at neck reining. I was 'told' to use a correction bit....I was a little intimidated by it (even though I'd had experience with them before) but now I know why the trainer told me to do that....it keeps him light and 'correct' you might say......


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

BTW all the reading I've done on spur training and what it is pretty much spells out what this hose can do with a rider that knows how to ask him. I know where this horse came from and I fully believe what I've been told about him. The woman who owned him before his current home does a lot of Western sports as well as hunter/jumper with QHs and Appendix. 

I want direct reining because I like the option. Since I started taking lessons my trainers have told me to not move my hands unless I just can't do it with my legs. I'm still weak with my legs but since flat work and dressage type training was the focus of all of my lessons so far it was pretty much drilled into my head that I look like a sloppy mess if I'm waving my hands around. So, I try really hard to keep my hands still, but there's a sort of security in it for me. I like feeling them chew on the bit and having that fluid movement.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

That's great and all, but I'm still curious as to why you would NEVER put a curb in a horse's mouth...

You may not wanna hear it, but I really don't think this is the horse for you if he's been described accuratly. If you do go through with it, I would make absolutely positive that the owner does not mind..I had a leasor that had a fit when she realised I had spurs on my boots even though I tried to explain I was rarely using them..it can turn bad between an owner and leaser, REAL quick, it's happened to me.
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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

My issue with curbs is that I don't like them and the hunter/jumper trainers that have gone national level and have either owned or currently own Grand Prix horses all use the most mild snaffle that they can get away with on their horses. They have encouraged me to do the same, and I figure if they can get to the places they've gone using the gear they use, I should follow their advice until it doesn't work.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

All of their horses have also been trained English since they started, they don't take horses that have gone through so much western training and experience as their next grand prix project.
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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

I said I wouldn't put a curb bit on my horse just because someone told me to. 

Why don't you think this horse is for me? And I've already asked the owner if she's okay with me putting a snaffle on him and she's fine with it. Now that you point this out, I'm going to have that written into the lease if I decide to take him.


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

The woman who trained this horse before the current owner bought him owns a WP pleasure Appendix who has don't national level jumper and is on her way to Grand Prix.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Ok.....but we are now talking two different disciplines....if I were you I'd get a horse trained for hunter/jumper who works in a snaffle......and just of note, keeping your hands really still is a good thing on a western trained horse, and without that constant contact up front a western rider gets a really strong seat and legs.....I can't speak much for Dressage, as it has been many years for me, but I sure as heck know that some of those dressage folk can crack coconuts with their thighs!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

OTTB said:


> My issue with curbs is that I don't like them and the hunter/jumper trainers that have gone national level and have either owned or currently own Grand Prix horses all use the most mild snaffle that they can get away with on their horses. They have encouraged me to do the same, and I figure if they can get to the places they've gone using the gear they use, I should follow their advice until it doesn't work.


 Curbs are required for Western competition in horses older than five. They're a great tool for refinement on horses that respond well to seat and leg cues. I have my Arabian reiner in a medium-port correction bit and have no problem whatsoever with curbs. They should not be used with constant contact, that much is true, but to discount all curbs because you don't like them is a bit absurd.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

When I look for a horse to lease, I'm looking for a horse that I'm interested in purchasing after a time or one that is already trained for the disclipine I'm interested in. What's the point in retraining someone else's horse while you pay them? If I wanted to retrain a horse, I'd just buy my own or offer training for so much a day/month for a horse they don't know how to retrain.
If you're okay with the fact that you'll most likely be retraining a horse and paying to do so, then go ahead and start leasing. I'm not okay with that, and never again will I pay someone to train their horse just for them to decide they want it back because they can finally ride it now without flying off and hitting the ground.
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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

I don't think this horse is right for you. This horse sounds like an advanced western horse. Which is on the other end of the spectrum for what you want. Why not look for a horse that is trained for what you want? 

If you dont want to put a curb in your horse's mouth then good for you. Dont show WP then. If the horse has been worked in a curb have fun putting a snaffle in its mouth. Alot of the time when going from a curb to a snaffle the horse will be dull and unresponsive. 

Again, this horse sounds like the complete opposite of what you want. Im curious as to why you even looked at it in the first place.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

The problem with spur broke horses that i've seen is that the spur contact does the opposite than the traditional use .I've never ridden a spur broke horse but I think I'd find it confusing:shock:.From what i've been told, The spurs rate speed on these horses more contact the slower.I have seen these horses go in HUS riding in snaffle to a WP in curb,bitting isn't so much the issue here. Trouble i've seen riders have is trying to teach these horses to move out & be more forward in their movement.That in itself could prove problematic for OP trying to learn do H/J on that horse,if he is indeed solely spur broke:wink:.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

paintedpastures said:


> The problem with spur broke horses that i've seen is that the spur contact does the opposite than the traditional use .I've never ridden a spur broke horse but I think I'd find it confusing:shock:.From what i've been told, The spurs rate speed on these horses more contact the slower.I have seen these horses go in HUS riding in snaffle to a WP in curb,bitting isn't so much the issue here. Trouble i've seen riders have is trying to teach these horses to move out & be more forward in their movement.That in itself could prove problematic for OP trying to learn do H/J on that horse,if he is indeed solely spur broke:wink:.


The way she described the horse i don't think he is spur broke. 

I agree with you, spur broke horses always seem to have more suck back than forward. Since the rider is usually always riding the "brake"


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

paintedpastures said:


> The problem with spur broke horses that i've seen is that the spur contact does the opposite than the traditional use .I've never ridden a spur broke horse but I think I'd find it confusing:shock:.From what i've been told, The spurs rate speed on these horses more contact the slower.I have seen these horses go in HUS riding in snaffle to a WP in curb,bitting isn't so much the issue here. Trouble i've seen riders have is trying to teach these horses to move out & be more forward in their movement.That in itself could prove problematic for OP trying to learn do H/J on that horse,if he is indeed solely spur broke:wink:.


It's just heels down, weight in the stirrups, spurs on to create the forward oomph with the weight down sloooooow.....it's actually really hard to get a really nice slow lope, for reining that is....otherwise it would be considered a gallop in WP :lol: just kidding! But it's not as slow as a WP lope...
So it's actually the same cues, just used at the same time, the spurs are on to pick the horse up and collect him too....so lots going on all at once!!!!


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Spur stop controversy {Taken from wikipedia}
A new fad, seen in nearly all breeds, requires a horse to perform with an extremely loose, draped rein at all times. Western pleasure horses have always traveled on a fairly loose rein, but in recent years the visible "drape" in the rein has become exaggerated.[4] However, it requires time, good riding ability, and careful training to correctly teach a horse "self carriage," particularly to slow or stop by responding to only a rider's use of seat position (and sometimes voice) without tightening the reins.[5] Thus, an alternative method of training to slow a horse down without the use of the reins gave rise to a new, highly controversial, technique known as the "spur stop," an unconventional method used by some trainers to train horses to slow down and stop when spur pressure is applied.
Because spur, heel or leg pressure is generally used to ask a horse to go faster, this technique is sometimes referred to by its critics as "riding the brake" and is frowned upon by several major western pleasure sanctioning organizations since at least 2003, when AQHA put out a series of videos on correct and incorrect style and way of going for western pleasure horses, showing a "hit list" of undesirable traits not to be rewarded in the show ring, with the spur stop leading the list.[6]
This controversy in Western Pleasure circles resembles the debate over Rollkur in the field of dressage, particularly over the question of whether the practice constitutes animal abuse.
Experts differ on the validity of the spur stop. As stated by trainer Bob Avila: "the spur stop is “the worst thing ever invented. If I were to get a horse in for training that had a spur stop on him, I could do one event on him, period: Western pleasure.” Taking the opposing view, Mark Sheridan, an AQHA judge and trainer, has said: "You should not have any problems with the spur stop, and the transition to whatever events you decide to do with [the horse]. Personally, I put a spur stop on just the stop and back, on my western riders."
A less extreme method is referred to as putting "buttons" on the horse. A "button" is simply a leg or spur position that is trained by operant conditioning that tells the horse to travel at a particular gait or speed. These are often highly customized to an individual horse and rider team. While less extreme than the spur stop, such techniques still take the horse away from traditional responses to the riding aids of seat, hands, weight and voice, which can also lead to an excessively artificial way of going by the animal.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Hmmm well I don't use my spur to stop....I use my weight and brace my legs, no rein, no spur......I use my spur at neutral position to pick my horse up, I use it just behind the cinch to control his shoulders and I use it behind neutral to push his hips around and to make him pick up speed......BUT to slow down from a fast lope to a slow lope, I push my weight down into the stirrup, sit back and when he slows I encourage him to keep moving at that pace by releasing my brake a little (weight off a little in stirrups) and kissing to him and picking him up with my spurs if I need......


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Muppetgirl said:


> Hmmm well I don't use my spur to stop....I use my weight and brace my legs, no rein, no spur......I use my spur at neutral position to pick my horse up, I use it just behind the cinch to control his shoulders and I use it behind neutral to push his hips around and to make him pick up speed......BUT to slow down from a fast lope to a slow lope, I push my weight down into the stirrup, sit back and when he slows I encourage him to keep moving at that pace by releasing my brake a little (weight off a little in stirrups) and kissing to him and picking him up with my spurs if I need......


Yes & what you are doing is normal,traditional training/use of spurs. Spur trained horses are different.Remember watching a girl trying to get her gelding to extend his trot out when asked for at an open show{he had been spur trained for breed show WP} the horse didn't know how :? she tried eg him on with her seat but you apply that leg {like you would to push on a horse normally} & he'd just pull up want to go slower:shock:


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

paintedpastures said:


> Yes & what you are doing is normal,traditional training/use of spurs. Spur trained horses are different.Remember watching a girl trying to get her gelding to extend his trot out when asked for at an open show{he had been spur trained for breed show WP} the horse didn't know how :? she tried eg him on with her seat but you apply that leg {like you would to push on a horse normally} & he'd just pull up want to go slower:shock:


Well that's a bit dicey!!! If I put my spur on my horse and he stopped....well I'd be getting right after him!!!:lol:


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Does the owner know you plan on completely retraining their horse? Not just putting it back in a snaffle, but have you explained in detail how you plan to train and ride their horse? I do everything except dressage and roping on my mare, neither of which ever struck a chord for me. But she does all the gaming, cattle, equitation, reining, even a little jumping here and there. She is trained for contact, and no contact at all. But she is primarily seat/leg cued. That's not to say it didn't take me a long time to refine different disciplines. But that's my horse and what I wanted to do with her. If your not careful, you can really screw up a horses mind. I've seen it a ton of times. I would consider saving your self the time and effort and finding a horse that's already geared toward your interests.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Op-I have to agree with those who are telling you to keep looking. I have NO idea why you are so set on a horse that truly is trained to death for a discipline other than what you want? As one who has fairly recently "gone to the dark side" from English to Western, I do understand some of what you are saying. One of my most difficult transitions was to give up the contact. For me, just like you said, it was a "security". However, now that I do ride in a correction bit, which took some learning, after it being a "no no" in H/J, I can say it is really nice to not have to touch your horse. I will also tell you that to have a horse that is really sensitive to the aids can be difficult and frustrating for both of you if you do not have really strong, still legs, and a great seat and hands. My other point would be-you do not even know IF this horse has a jump that even makes this all worth while! If he is anything like my western guy, it is NOT PRETTY. :lol: It is anything but fluid and lovely. I also am scratching my head as to why you would not look for a horse who is at least started in your chosen discipline. Is it a free unicorn or something? Farts rainbows? I have no idea what your attraction is...certainly there are other horses out there more suited. You are just asking for both of you to be frustrated and risk really screwing up a well trained horse.


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

Where in this thread have I indicated that I am dead set on getting this horse? Where in this thread did I say that I would never use a curb bit? Why are people so defensive on this forum when others question their methods and want to understand why they do the things they do? 

If I want to waste my money on a horse I think will be fun on the trail and fun to see if I can train for equitation flat work and maybe go over some jumps I don't see how that affects anyone here. I'm kind of offended that folks here keep insisting that the 'way I described the horse' means he isn't spur trained and then they turn around and describe the horse's abilities to a T. 

Why am I looking at him? Because I don't want to pay $500 a month just to ride for an hour a day three days a week. The other horses I've looked at have either been trail safe but aren't allowed to be trailered anywhere except shows or they're not trail safe at all. I'm also not interested in buying a horse at this time. I am on a students income and could not afford a $5000 colic surgery. Most people in college sell their horses because they're expensive. I sold mine but still want access to riding. The way this lease would work - just paying for his feed and a little extra for them to feed him twice a day - works great for me until it doesn't anymore, and they've said just give them a 30 day notice.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

What does spending 5K on colic surgery have to do with anything?

We are trying to help you. You posted on here asking for advice and we are giving it too you.

This horse clearly isnt right for you. Why look at a western horse when you want to jump? I have come across many jumping horses that are broke to trail. Im curious why you want a horse thats never jumped before but has been on a trail. Opposed to a horse that jumps but has never been on a trail. It would make more sense to settle for a jumping horse and break it to trail yourself. Alot of jumping horses have dipped in to CC as it is, which is basically trail. It would be easier to break to trail than to jump. Unless you are looking to train a horse to jump.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

Personally, if you leased my advanced western horse that is supposedly spur broke and tried to jump it. Fit would hit the shan.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Why don't you try to expand your horizons and learn to ride western? You might like it and actually lose your need to have contact with a horses' mouth to feel secure. You actually learn to trust your horse. Just a thought. Otherwise, look for another lease. I also would have a fit if someone retrained my guy to contact. IMO contact is easy to teach. Indirect reining-not so much. But, even if you can teach the horse contact, you still have to have really still legs, and a consistent seat. Otherwise, you will have a horse stopping when you mean go, going when you mean stop......and it goes on and on...which, btw would not be very "trail safe", imo.

I get the $5000-you feel the need to have an emergency reserve, and I totally get and agree with that. Kudos. Most folks don't feel that need, and then are up a creek when there is an emergency....and they are the first ones on here crying the blues.


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## clippityclop (Jul 12, 2012)

OTTB said:


> I prefer riding English and enjoy doing hunter/jumper. I am considering a 15 year old paint gelding for lease and he's been under an English saddle before. The problem is, he's fully spur trained. I laid the reins on his neck, had my hands on my hips, and steered him around with just my legs and butt. He does not stop dead on a dime when you give him the whoa cue but could this sort of thing have a negative impact for doing equitation flat and green hunter? With his age I don't want to do anything over 3 feet.
> 
> This is all assuming he LIKES jumping. I've only been on him for about 15 minutes to try him out. I'm bringing an general purpose saddle and a snaffle bit to try him out with direct reining and light contact on his mouth. The curb bit they have for him is pointless since he doesn't need it.


Hi, OTTB - back on the subject of your actual question -

I understand what you are trying to say - you need to know if he will respond to a snaffle for HJ riding and you are asking if anyone else basically has had experience with taking a more 'hands free' type horse and using them in a discipline where more 'direct rein' is needed and whether or not this would work?

I guess that would depend on how 'finished' this particular horse is - no one here would know and you won't either until you just get on and do a trial ride - get the owner's input and ask a bunch of questions - try him out both ways, english and western and then see if he is something you'd want to invest some time in and make sure you and the owner are on the same page with goals for this horse.

I've trained many a horse over the years that pick up the seat and leg cues really fast, but are no way trained up in the bridle yet - when you mentioned his little quirk about stopping, it simply makes me think he isn't a finished horse and maybe some time with the basics in a snaffle could be beneficial. I understand what others here worry about and that is the 'untraining' that might happen bringing a horse like this back to direct rein - it takes a long time and lot's of hard work to finish out a WP horse but then we don't know where this horse is at any level, and then if the owner doesn't mind and wants her horse to have a career in some jumping to make him more versatile, then that his their choice as well.

The horse is 15 years old, so if he is good as a WP prospect or even decent at the western equitation level and then learns a bit of english that could be used in a hunter over fences class, well I don't think that it could hurt a horse at this age - here in TX, for a horse that can do all the classes in 4H, we'd pay upwards of $7500/8000 for an older horse that can do a little of everything safely with our children - so the owner might have her own goals/reasons for leasing her guy out for english riding.

A good trial ride will give you a hint as to where he stands - back to your question, I've seen it go both ways - if he is really finished and trained up WP style, it could take months to go back to direct contact. If he is somewhere in the middle, not really 'finished' in any discipline, learning something new certainly won't hurt him - he is older and I think it would just be a matter of how much time you want to invest. I think it would be easier with an english trained horse, but if you like how this guy rides and the owner likes how you ride him, then it is really up to what makes you guys happy in the long run.


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

I talked to the owner again this morning to see about scheduling another time to go out with a snaffle bit and an English saddle. I told her about everyone here being concerned with my ruining him for WP or other western sports. She told me that she has moved on from this horse and if she does ride him it will be at low level shows this summer. They love this horse too much to send him off to the first person to come around, but also don't want him anymore. 

Essentially this horse is retired for them and they have moved on. I'm more than happy to give him a job and see what we can do together.

She has encouraged me to do what I want with him and both she and her dad, who I will be working with the most often since she lives 2 hours away, have told me that if he is not working out then I do not have to lease him.

clippityclop - that's exactly what I'm wondering. I guess this is a 'you don't know until you try' type of thing. I know enough about training any kind of animal to be able to tell when they're unhappy or if it's too much for me to handle. 

And please, before you decide that wanting a direct reining option means I don't trust the horse educate yourself about what Dressage really is. Having contact on the mouth has nothing to do with trust issues and needing full control. It's all about a different style of riding. I'm perfectly fine with a huge loop in the reins or just laying them on the neck while going around a field or out on the trail. If the horse spooks or refuses to go forward having my hands on his mouth isn't going to help me stay on or persuade him to move.


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## clippityclop (Jul 12, 2012)

Well I can't wait for you to spend some time with him and see what you think....I think that considering what the owner desires for him and what you could teach him, he would definitely benefit from it. I hope it goes well and you are really lucky to be able to make school/riding time workout - I never could do it - LOL but life gets in the way sometimes!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

OTTB said:


> I talked to the owner again this morning to see about scheduling another time to go out with a snaffle bit and an English saddle. I told her about everyone here being concerned with my ruining him for WP or other western sports. She told me that she has moved on from this horse and if she does ride him it will be at low level shows this summer. They love this horse too much to send him off to the first person to come around, but also don't want him anymore.
> 
> Essentially this horse is retired for them and they have moved on. I'm more than happy to give him a job and see what we can do together.
> 
> ...



Excuse me, but YOU were the one who said YOU had security issues with not having contact via 2 reins. Re read your own posts before you jump on me. I have NO need to educate myself, thanks, and, btw, I do know that dressage does NOT involve jumping, which you said you were thinking of doing. So, what is it you are going to do? Dressage would probably work better for a horse who is sensitive to the leg aids like this one sounds. More so than H/J.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

OTTB said:


> I want direct reining because I like the option. Since I started taking lessons my trainers have told me to not move my hands unless I just can't do it with my legs. I'm still weak with my legs but since flat work and dressage type training was the focus of all of my lessons so far it was pretty much drilled into my head that I look like a sloppy mess if I'm waving my hands around. So,* I try really hard to keep my hands still, but there's a sort of security in it for me. I like feeling them chew on the bit and having that fluid movement.*


^ Right there


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## clippityclop (Jul 12, 2012)

Most folks fall back on the basics of dressage when starting a new horse or beginning a new program with a horse with unknown training/history - I think that is a great idea.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Here we go. Is it good basic riding or is it "dressage"? THere was a whole thread on this not too long ago. Even the true dressage folks here seemed to agree it was just good basics. Not really "dressage". Regardless, the OP stated she had intentions of jumping. NOT dressage. Period.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Ok, so what I would do if I were you and chose to lease this horse is learn to ride western pleasure. What will it hurt you? Nothing. It will make you a better rider and at some point help him if he gets too far out of his comfort zone under english. I say this because with my mare, I rode differently for each discipline. Different bits and all. That way she was not confused on what we were doing. I also say that because this horse (I would guess) is probably a slow mover. English riders prefer a more forward moving horse, am I wrong? I ride a little stud out at the rescue ranch I volunteer at now. I've put a pretty good start on him, and it's more geared toward reining as that's his natural talent. Now, there are other volunteers at the ranch too who grew up english and that's all they know. I was sick for about 2 weeks and he was ridden by them. Now, he moves out a lot more then before and has a harder face. Not saying this is an english problem, but he's obviously a little confused by the different riding styles. No big deal to me, just means more work. The reason I say that is because you mentioned that the owner still plans on showing her horse this summer. IMHO, you should try to keep him rounded in both disciplines. It will make him a better horse, and you a better rider. So, go learn some western that way you can effectively communicate to him, keep him mentally versatile and the owner can still enjoy the hard work she's done on him when she wants to. Also, I am NOT bashing english!! Just saying that confusion can come when mixing the two too fast and in an unclear manor. I am NOT saying you will ruin this horse, but you need to learn from him before you can teach him.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

That's a very good post....☝☝☝☝☝☝☝ I thoroughly agree.....personally I'd freak out if someone tried to retrain my horse to have constant contact.....big no no with reiners........


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Muppetgirl said:


> That's a very good post....☝☝☝☝☝☝☝ I thoroughly agree.....personally I'd freak out if someone tried to retrain my horse to have constant contact.....big no no with reiners........


Yeah, true. If they're trained ONLY for reining. But even a finished horse was started in a snaffle..usually. But they are trained WAY different. To be soft and give to pressure. Like I said, my mare was pretty competitive in open shows and HS Equestrian Team in reining. But I also did english. I guess more like faked it, didn't have a whole lot of contact and mostly just went off seat and leg cues. But I already said that


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm sorry if folks here think it's impossible to have fun and are too busy projecting their own issues onto my situation. This is NOT your horse, and if I had told you from the first phone call that I intended to use him as a trail horse and maybe do some low level equitation and you told me no ... I would have wished you a good time and said bye. 

And you're excused. Your attitude is embarrassing and I have no idea why you're so hostile to a complete stranger over the internet.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Quite frankly, it's not YOUR horse either. It seems unclear on what your plans are for this horse. From your original post until now. Are you just looking for an all around English horse? You should be more specific on who your addressing. If your addressing me about projecting problems, then you've got it all wrong. I simply am trying to help and explain that yes, you can do it. But you are going to spend a lot of time retraining a perfectly trained horse. And in the process, he will more than likely become confused at one point or another. Maybe there's no hostility here, only frustration about your actual plans. You asked a question and you got opinions. They might not be what you wanted to hear, but none the less you asked.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

OTTB said:


> I'm sorry if folks here think it's impossible to have fun and are too busy projecting their own issues onto my situation. This is NOT your horse, and if I had told you from the first phone call that I intended to use him as a trail horse and maybe do some low level equitation and you told me no ... I would have wished you a good time and said bye.
> 
> And you're excused. Your attitude is embarrassing and I have no idea why you're so hostile to a complete stranger over the internet.


Not sure what you find embarrassing? I am not. Not hostile, either. Retraining a horse of this age especially is really difficult particularly when done by someone who sees their reins as a "security", and doesn't really know what it is they want to concentrate on. To retrain effectively you really should choose a focus and stick with it. If you are just looking to trail ride-this horse will be great. If you want to really do english, no matter what the discipline, it will most likely require some very real focus and tons of patience. Good luck.


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## OTTB (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm going to let this thread go. There are many people in this thread who are unable to give valid advice without getting overly emotional and threatening violence, having melt downs (EXCUSE ME?), and being generally hostile to someone because they're unable to hold a reasonable and mature discussion.

Come to think about it, this is the attitude that I've had experience with in person at Western shows and people wonder why I don't like Western sports. At least at English shows when someone gets snotty it's obvious that they're 15 years old and their mother is looking incredibly embarrassed over their daughters behavior.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

OTTB said:


> I'm going to let this thread go. There are many people in this thread who are unable to give valid advice without getting overly emotional and threatening violence, having melt downs (EXCUSE ME?), and being generally hostile to someone because they're unable to hold a reasonable and mature discussion.
> 
> *Come to think about it, this is the attitude that I've had experience with in person at Western shows and people wonder why I don't like Western sports. *At least at English shows when someone gets snotty it's obvious that they're 15 years old and their mother is looking incredibly embarrassed over their daughters behavior.


Wow, now there is a snobby attitude if you ask me!! Calling the kettle black.

Anyway, any well trained western horse can also do hunt seat. US snobby western people DO like a versatile horse...it's not ALL about going slow all the time...they CAN move out when asked. My WP horse does hunt seat as well..he's got more speeds at each gait than an 18 wheeler has gears. Does he like someone taking up miles of contact and hanging on his mouth? Well, no....I don't know any horse that does. He's not fond of snaffle bits...would MUCH rather be in a curb bit.

I also don't think this horse has a spur stop. If you buried your spurs OR your lower legs real hard with an even squeeze....he WOULD stop on a dime. There is nothing wrong with a spur stop horse; I wouldn't have it any other way. The spur is just an "extension" of your leg for refinement, so what's the big deal. It also comes in handy if you have a beginner on the horse...a big squeeze is an emergency brake, because most beginners DO SQUEEZE (in an effort to stay on) should something happen.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

OTTB said:


> I'm going to let this thread go. There are many people in this thread who are unable to give valid advice without getting overly emotional and threatening violence, having melt downs (EXCUSE ME?), and being generally hostile to someone because they're unable to hold a reasonable and mature discussion.
> 
> Come to think about it, this is the attitude that I've had experience with in person at Western shows and people wonder why I don't like Western sports. At least at English shows when someone gets snotty it's obvious that they're 15 years old and their mother is looking incredibly embarrassed over their daughters behavior.


Wow. Having melt downs? Threatening violence? You must be reading this in some other language. Makes me really laugh that you find western folks snobby. I feel the same way about english after spending 30+ years doing it.

Have a nice day! :wink:


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> Wow. Having melt downs? Threatening violence? You must be reading this in some other language. Makes me really laugh that you find western folks snobby. I feel the same way about english after spending 30+ years doing it.
> 
> Have a nice day! :wink:


It must be the voices in her head......lol! Western folks.....snobby??? :rofl:


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ I remember when I moved one of my WP horses to an H/J barn because it had an indoor and I needed one for the winter to get ready for spring AQHA show season. The woman who owned the barn looked at me when I put my western saddle in the tack room...."I can't believe I have a western saddle in my tack room!" And she was serious! All the other boarders would not give me the time of day, even though I introduced myself and attempted to make conversation. Funny thing was, I also rode this horse hunt seat because I did all-arounds with him. But the whole time I was there, I only used my western saddle and I could hear people whispering as I walked down the aisle with my spurs on, tacked my horse up western and went into the indoor. I would turn around REAL quick and they would immediately shut up and just look at me.


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## .Delete. (Jan 7, 2008)

OTTB said:


> I'm going to let this thread go. There are many people in this thread who are unable to give valid advice without getting overly emotional and *threatening violence*, having melt downs (EXCUSE ME?), and being generally hostile to someone because they're unable to hold a reasonable and mature discussion.


Thanks for the good laugh :lol:


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

And...that's the reason I don't ride english. Oh well, to each her own I suppose. You asked for advice, and you got it. Sorry it wasn't what you wanted to hear. good luck with this horse. Hope it all works out for you, the horse, and the owner as well.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ and I also ride hunt seat in addition to western because I believe in a well rounded and versatile rider but have no snobbery for either. But in my 51 years of riding and showing, I will say that I have found the hunter riders to have more snobbery because they think western is easy. I'm not putting them down...it's just because they have never ridden a good western horse to realize how hard it really is. I don't fault them, I just wish people would get out of their comfort zone and try ALL the seats before they cast judgement. How can someone say something is easy if they never tried it and tried it on a well trained horse??!!


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

GotaDunQH said:


> ^ and I also ride hunt seat in addition to western because I believe in a well rounded and versatile rider but have no snobbery for either. But in my 51 years of riding and showing, I will say that I have found the hunter riders to have more snobbery because they think western is easy. I'm not putting them down...it's just because they have never ridden a good western horse to realize how hard it really is. I don't fault them, I just wish people would get out of their comfort zone and try ALL the seats before they cast judgement. How can someone say something is easy if they never tried it and tried it on a well trained horse??!!


That is so true! Nothing easy about riding or training a horse period! Not sure where people get off thinking that their discipline is the hardest. I've done almost all, so I know what your saying. It is possible to be a versatile rider, and have a versatile horse. But it takes a lot of work!


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

I refuse to compete at any level because of such nonsense.

I have my horse for my own pleasure. Competition steals the pleasure from me as things get much to serious for many to allow others to enjoy it.

Ride your own ride and don't worry about what other people think.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

1) i HAVE SEEN huge sores larger than a silver dollar left on horses mouth from Snaffle bits. 2) You are looking at a horse trained for LEg and Seat..NOT Spur.. 3) Why take and ruin a good trained horse to use in direct contact mouth pressure ? 4) Heavy Hands make any bit Mean . Heavy hands constant pressure will ruin a horse. A good jumping dressage English horse is trained with seat and leg ques ..


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

GotaDunQH said:


> ^ I remember when I moved one of my WP horses to an H/J barn because it had an indoor and I needed one for the winter to get ready for spring AQHA show season. The woman who owned the barn looked at me when I put my western saddle in the tack room...."I can't believe I have a western saddle in my tack room!" And she was serious! All the other boarders would not give me the time of day, even though I introduced myself and attempted to make conversation. Funny thing was, I also rode this horse hunt seat because I did all-arounds with him. But the whole time I was there, I only used my western saddle and I could hear people whispering as I walked down the aisle with my spurs on, tacked my horse up western and went into the indoor. I would turn around REAL quick and they would immediately shut up and just look at me.


Haha-I have done the same thing, and may have to again soon, as there are very few indoors in northern VA other than H/J or dressage. I have actually had them ask me "how do you get your horse to do that?" lol:wink:


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## 27cfmd (Sep 3, 2012)

I'm not quite sure if the horse you described is spur training, I am assuming you mean spur stop.

Spur stop horses stop when you squeeze your spurs into their side. The reason they do this is because they are taught when you squeeze it means to back. So if you squeeze with your spurs, they stop and you keep squeezing they will back. This is how my spur stop horse was trained, at least.

I personally really like the spur stop training, it is very useful and I definitely stay off my horses face. Which he likes, he will get very soled up and not want to move. That being said, I can take the spur stop away from him and ride him like a normal horse and he will act just as good. The only reason I know this is because he takes it away himself when he decides he doesn't want to listen.

So I would say if you are comfortable staying off the face a little more than normal, like have slight, as in very slight rein pressure then I think you will do fine. That is if you end up liking the horse in general. Also, I think it would be fine putting him in a snaffle since spur stop horses aren't trained to be on their face and have direct rein contact. I ride my spur stop horse in a snaffle ALL the time because he is so light and I hardly ever have to touch his face.


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## filly05 (Nov 11, 2012)

A horse can be trained to be "light" in the mouth with any bit. But yes, in AQHA and other associations, a curb bit is required over 5 yrs old. And it is NOT harsh if the rider knows what he/she is doing. A snaffle bit can be harsh in the wrong hands.

My horse is spur trained and I was going to do a partial lease a few years ago. The woman freaked when I said she was spur trained... she said she was going to "retrain" her. Needless to say I didn't let this woman do a partial lease. The last thing you should think about doing if leasing a horse is retraining it. More than likely, that horse is trained exactly how the owner wants it.

Spur trained horses can do anything any other horse can do if you know how to ride them properly. The barn I'm at shows IBHA and used to show AQHA years ago. There are often classes with jumps, being spur trained does not hold them back from any event. If anything, it can give an advantage.


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## filly05 (Nov 11, 2012)

paintedpastures said:


> Spur stop controversy {Taken from wikipedia}
> A new fad, seen in nearly all breeds, requires a horse to perform with an extremely loose, draped rein at all times. Western pleasure horses have always traveled on a fairly loose rein, but in recent years the visible "drape" in the rein has become exaggerated.[4] However, it requires time, good riding ability, and careful training to correctly teach a horse "self carriage," particularly to slow or stop by responding to only a rider's use of seat position (and sometimes voice) without tightening the reins.[5] Thus, an alternative method of training to slow a horse down without the use of the reins gave rise to a new, highly controversial, technique known as the "spur stop," an unconventional method used by some trainers to train horses to slow down and stop when spur pressure is applied.
> Because spur, heel or leg pressure is generally used to ask a horse to go faster, this technique is sometimes referred to by its critics as "riding the brake" and is frowned upon by several major western pleasure sanctioning organizations since at least 2003, when AQHA put out a series of videos on correct and incorrect style and way of going for western pleasure horses, showing a "hit list" of undesirable traits not to be rewarded in the show ring, with the spur stop leading the list.[6]
> This controversy in Western Pleasure circles resembles the debate over Rollkur in the field of dressage, particularly over the question of whether the practice constitutes animal abuse.
> ...


My horse is spur trained AND she is a hunt horse... its actually quite simple and is in no way shape or form inhumane or cruel. I use very light leg cues. Tap to move forward, LIGHT constant pressure to stop, and if she is stopped and I continue constant pressure, she will back up, without touching the reins. This comes in handy when doing a discipline rail class, when the judge can ask you to drop your reins and back up. I agree, some ppl are very cruel with spurs. A horse at our barn has indents in his side from his previous trainer... which he lunged at and tried to take a bite out of the last time he saw the old trainer at a show.

I am also teaching my horse western pleasure... all 30+ horses at our barn can do both english and western using spurs. If you know how to use them correctly, you and your horse can achieve amazing things.


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