# Compare western size to english



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

what size tree is your English saddle, and what type? jump? AP?

how tall are you? and thin, or plump. long legs or short?

if you ride in a 16.5, generally the western seat measurement is 2 inches smaller for approximately the same seat size, but a 14.5 inch saddle Western is getting into the child sizes. a 15 would likely be a better choice, but that can depend on your weight, height, and leg length.

I couldn't say based on 'dot to dot ' measure. does your horse have a more vertical-sided back with more pronounced withers? (then I might try a semi qh tree) , or a more flat sided (then maybe a qh tree, or full qh bars tree)

is there no way you can try on a few saddles? I'll admit that to me it's much harder to see/feel the fit of a western saddle than it is an English saddle.

photos of your horse's bare back, onlevel ground, and current saddle might help. but, you realize that over the internet it's huge guess.


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## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

tinyliny said:


> what size tree is your English saddle, and what type? jump? AP?
> 
> how tall are you? and thin, or plump. long legs or short?
> 
> ...


My saddle is a close contact, tree measuring at 5.5" dot to dot. I don't do "medium", "medium wide", ect just because every saddle is different and "medium" could mean different things to other saddlers. Frankly, I have no knowledge in that area of terms. Does anyone really? Haha I'm average at 5'6" height but with short thighs and long calves so I have a somewhat shorter flap on my close contact to accommodate. I ride in my friends western saddle and I think it's a 15" or 16" and I always thought it was a little snug, but still doable. 

I have a few western saddles in the tack room that I can try but I have no idea what I am looking for. The only thing I know is that I need 2-3 fingers vertical from the withers up. It does seem like western is soooo much more complicated than english!! I just don't want to hurt his back if I put one on him once upon a time. 
Source: http://www.horse.com/content/western-tack/measuring-and-fitting-a-western-saddle/

EDIT: I forgot to answer-- he is a BIG quarter horse (foundation bred) so everything on him is oversized or warmblood size. Maybe that could help a little? Although I don't know to tell if something is FQHB.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

In my rather uneducated western saddle experience it does seem the western sadlde is quite different for a couple reasons. First its designed to primarily fit one type of horse. English saddles are made to fit warmbloods and TBs and Arabians and quarter horses and then list goes on. Western saddles (with a few minority exceptions) are designed to fit western style stock horses. For the most part these horses are flattish and widish to various degrees. If your isn't similar to a stock type it gets a lot harder to fit a saddle.

The second different is there isn't built in padding, then padding/stuffing is ideally in the form of a thick, wool pad. This allows a bit of flexibility in fit with many people using shims to adjust fit.

From what I can tell if your horse is broad and flat for a QH go full quarter horse bars, if he's more average or appendix type go semi-qh bars.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

As Tinyliny said, western seat sizes are 2 inches smaller so in general if you are a 17" english you are a 15" western. That being said, as you know there are many things to consider in an english saddle such as the flap size, your stirrup length, etc. Western is a little more forgiving as long as the saddle isn't too small. 

Western trees are far different from english trees. The same basics apply such as which parts of the horses' anatomy must be free to move (shoulders, hip), there must be spinal clearance, the saddle shouldn't sit downhill or uphill, and it shouldn't pinch, bridge, rock or gap anywhere. The tree points in the front must angle with the horse's shoulders just like the panels must on an english saddle. 

With all of these things applying, we can't tell you a set of numbers that will say if a saddle will match your horse's particular anatomy and angles. The best thing would be to post some photos with the various saddles and you can get opinions on which is the best fit, or if they are all a terrible fit.


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## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

I will try to get pictures of the western saddles I put on him sometime, but in the mean time can we talk about what FQHB means? How do you determine what is full and what is semi?

Also, is there a rule of thumb where you determine correct seat size for the rider? Such as the English saddle, where you have a hand in the front hand in the back.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hi Mertastic!

If you _have_ saddles available, why not just toss 'em on and see? The angle of the gullet needs to match the angle of the horses shoulder, the shape of the bars need to conform to the shape of his back, and there needs to be adequate clearance above and alongside his spine.

Once you find one that appears to be close, place a clean white bath towel between the horse and the saddle (no pad), snug up the cinch, and go for a short ride. Unless you have just given him a thorough bath, after a ride of ten or fifteen minutes, there should be a clear outline of the saddle bar contact areas on the towel. Darker marks indicate greater pressure, and white areas indicate areas where the saddle is not contacting the horses back; "bridging". Ideally, the marks should be fairly uniform in density, and should outline the saddle bars very closely. Density gradients from front to back (often the back will be darker) are usually related to rider balance more so than saddle fit.

Once you find a saddle that passes this test, install a medium weight pad or blanket, and take a longer ride; long enough to create a sweat imprint on the animals back. This mark should match the shape of the saddle bars with no dry areas.

At this point, you have a saddle that fits well enough to go for longer rides, but always make it a point to examine the horses back for irregularities after a ride.

Hope this is helpful. Steve


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

mertastic said:


> Please do not talk to me about FQHB or semi... every saddle is different and if you talk about this, I will need an estimated range of actual measurements please!
> 
> I don't do "medium", "medium wide", ect just because every saddle is different and "medium" could mean different things to other saddlers.


Comparing English saddles to Western saddles, both of these hold true. 

Saying "full quarter horse bars" can give you an idea of how the Western saddle may fit, but there aren't any standards or "measurements". 

The same way a "medium" tree in an English saddle isn't a standard or has any specific "measurements" associated with it. But it may still give you a general idea. 

In general, a semi-quarter horse bar saddle is going to have a more narrow bar angle. A full quarter horse bar saddle is going to have a wider bar angle.

I think it would be useful for you to educate yourself a bit on how Western saddles are fit and what the terms mean. Here's a couple websites for you to read and to get a start.

Factors That Affect Tree Fit

THE SADDLE

Having fit both Western and English saddles myself, I personally feel that Western saddles are more difficult to fit because it is harder to see what exactly is going on under all that leather, and you also can't make modifications to the tree like you can to an English saddle.



mertastic said:


> but in the mean time can we talk about what FQHB means? How do you determine what is full and what is semi?


Honestly, it doesn't mean squat.  One company's FQHB will fit like another company's semi, and vice versa. There is no standard in the industry and it's simply a lot of trial and error. 

With that said, it sounds like you describe your horse as a thicker Quarter Horse, so you may want to start your search with FQHB and go from there. But keep in mind, one brand to the next will fit completely different because there are so many factors to consider (bar angle, flare, twist, rock, gullet, etc).




mertastic said:


> I ride in a 16.5" saddle seat size, will that be the same size I need for a western saddle?
> 
> Also, is there a rule of thumb where you determine correct seat size for the rider? Such as the English saddle, where you have a hand in the front hand in the back.


The general rule of thumb is to subtract 2 inches for the Western seat size you will need. So you would need approximately a 14.5" western saddle. You will find that the most common seat size in Western seems to be a 15". 

My Tad Coffin jumping saddle is a 17 inch. My Circle Y barrel racing saddle is a 14.5 inch. So I'm a little outside that rule of thumb, but it at least gives you something to start with. 

For a western saddle, a good benchmark is to fit 3 fingers between your thigh and the swell (like this picture I took off Google):













mertastic said:


> Is there anything specific I should be looking for. I tried on two saddles, Saddle Number One I fit 4 fingers in vertical from the withers to the top of the saddle. Saddle Number Two I fit 3 fingers in vertical from the withers, but it still seemed like it was too small because it was sitting on the horses shoulders. English saddles should not sit on the horses shoulders at all. Is that the same for western?


While wither clearance is important, there really isn't a set amount that you need. 

_Most _Western saddles are NOT designed to sit on the shoulder and they shouldn't. Just as your English saddle, the shoulder should have free movement and not restricted by the Western tree. But it's going to look different because you often have some leather overlapping where the tree actually sits, whereas English is a bit more straightforward because you can see where the tree ends.

I agree it would be most beneficial to see pictures of the Western saddle you do currently have and/or have tried. We would like to see pictures of the saddle sitting on the horse's back with NO pad, without being cinched. Take pictures from the side to see how level it sits, as well as pictures angled from the front/side so we can see how the bar angle sits.


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## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

Thank you beau129!! You have given me more information than really anything else that I've seen. I will try to get pictures of the two saddles on my horse and post them back on this thread.


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## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

*** Please read before posting opinions about pictures*** 
Thank you for your patience everyone. I got the pictures tonight. The general question to keep in mind is -- if I ride my horse in this very RARELY will it hurt his back? I am not looking for a custom fit to do hard rides in every day for hours and hours. It would just be a very rare leisure thing if I rode him in it. 

Here is saddle number one. I measured the gullet at 7 inches:








Balance of the saddle: 









Saddle number two. Measuring at 7.5" gullet:








Balance of the saddle:


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

I would be inclined to try #2, with a fairly thick pad. It looks like the best shape overall. It appears to be close to his spine in front, but a thick pad will tend to lift the saddle. Put the saddle and pad on him, and pull the pad up into the gullet of the saddle as much as possible. Do up the cinch, and try to put your fingers in between his withers and the pad. Not having the saddle resting on his spine is very important.
Saddle #1, the bars don't look like they are getting good contact with his back, which will likely result in pressure points. Use your hands between the panels/bars and the horse to feel for how things match up.
As far as riding, consider that you could squeeze your feet into shoes a couple of sizes too small, and probably walk around the house like that, but you wouldn't want to wear 'em to the mall. Shoes that are too big might not be real comfortable, but you probably _could_ wear them with a couple of pairs of socks . . .

Steve


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## mertastic (Aug 13, 2016)

george the mule said:


> I would be inclined to try #2, with a fairly thick pad. It looks like the best shape overall. It appears to be close to his spine in front, but a thick pad will tend to lift the saddle. Put the saddle and pad on him, and pull the pad up into the gullet of the saddle as much as possible. Do up the cinch, and try to put your fingers in between his withers and the pad. Not having the saddle resting on his spine is very important.
> Saddle #1, the bars don't look like they are getting good contact with his back, which will likely result in pressure points. Use your hands between the panels/bars and the horse to feel for how things match up.
> As far as riding, consider that you could squeeze your feet into shoes a couple of sizes too small, and probably walk around the house like that, but you wouldn't want to wear 'em to the mall. Shoes that are too big might not be real comfortable, but you probably _could_ wear them with a couple of pairs of socks . . .
> 
> Steve


In all honesty they both look too small to me. But then again I don't know anything about western saddles. I shoved my hand down in there and they are both sitting on the sides of his spine and not on top of. Someone else in this thread said that wither clearance wasn't as important as on western saddles than english? Saddle one I had a 4 finger clearance and saddle two I had a 3 finger clearance vertical from the withers up to the saddle.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

i think saddle number two is the better.


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## Abzeez (Aug 22, 2016)

I agree, saddle number 2.


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