# Critique Ricci and I! =D



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Ricci is coming back to work after being off for a year. We have been riding a grand total of two weeks. I know we have a ton of room for improvement. Her trot is decent, better today than it was yesterday. Her canter is very good for her, although I know I need more impulsion/drive from her. Advice on that would be greatly appreciated.

[ETA: All video clips are between :10 and :30 long, I don't expect you to watch ten minutes of video. =P]

First, a small clip of our shoulder-in. I'm pretty happy with it. Not perfect, but I think it's fairly decent. =]

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee49/riccil0ve/1301112433.mp4

And in no particular order, some trot and canter clips.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee49/riccil0ve/1301112830.mp4

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee49/riccil0ve/1301113338.mp4

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee49/riccil0ve/1301113402.mp4

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee49/riccil0ve/1301113611.mp4

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee49/riccil0ve/1301113730.mp4

And for giggles. =]


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

You really have to watch YOUR body position in the first clip. I'm bookmarking this to come back to later (my eyes are so tired they're starting to cross) but the big thing I saw was that your hands need work. You're bringing your inside hand back and across the wither. Your outside hand is not supporting the shoulder at all, and you've rotated your hand downwards ("puppy paws" or "piano hands".) Keep your shoulders even, don't collapse down through the ribcage. 
Will reply more when my eyes get rested.


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Yeah, you're definitely right there. I have a terrible habit of breaking my wrists. =\

Looking forward to your full critique!


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Bump? =]


----------



## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

You're right about the impulsion, to me it looks like she's barely trotting/cantering at all! Also, not criticizing at all, but why do you choose to school without a saddle? I'm not saying it in nastiness *at all* but it's just not something I would do? It might help your hand/leg movement if you're in a saddle


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Leah (now I know your name!)

I , too , saw the puppy paws and this was going to be my main comment. Puppy paws make it harder to have a truly following hand/elbow, so this is important to changes. Think of your thumb on top of your gently closed fist as a roof, and put a little bend in your thumb, THEN when you ride think of your thumb as pointing directly to the rings of the bit, now matter where horse puts her head.

I could not ride bareback nearly as well as you do, so I feel odd making any sort of critisism. I did see a few times you collapsed onto your fork, and this , I think, is due to not having enough looseness in your hip/pelvis. You locked up during some of the transitions and got caught be the sudden loss of momentum.

Nice pair, really nice and your horse moves nicely. Her trot seems fully appropriate for her size and breed.


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

The only thing I saw, other than what the other posters have mentioned, is that it seemed to me like Ricci was very braced through her neck against your hands. It looked almost like you were trying to pull her into a "correct" headset and she was having none of it... 
Maybe that's not the case at all, I know she's had a lot of time off recently because of lameness issues, if I remember correctly, so maybe she's still hurting a bit or something, I don't know. But, I felt like I should mention that brace-y-ness since I saw it.  
I'm not sure what to suggest since I am very inept in the area of collection/encouraging a horse to round, like I understand it mentally but I have no idea how to put it into practice physically, so hopefully a person who is more experienced in that area will come along and say something. 

In any case, I love your partnership with her. It's one of those things where you can just see that she adores you and you adore her. It's really great to see that kind of partnership.
Also, you ride bareback really well! I'm impressed.


----------



## x Branded Heart x (Jun 17, 2010)

Props to you for riding so well bareback 
I enjoy schooling bareback often (I find it helps my horse to better understand seat aids, and makes me pay more attention to keeping steady gaits!)
I'm also super lazy and don't feel like getting out my saddle everyday 

I noticed both the lack of impulsion, and the piano hands, as already mentioned. You need to hold your reins further up, and move your hands out of your lap to compensate. There should only be a light contact still, but your hands need to move with your horse's head at the walk and canter, and stay steady at the trot. As for the lack of impulsion, you should still work on using your seat and leg aids to drive her into the bridle, and get her moving forward- even riding bareback. 

Your posture is a little stiff, especially in the hips, and you've rolled your shoulders slightly. Work on opening up through your chest and relaxing your pelvis, so it can move freely with your horse's movement. I do like how solid your leg is, and your incredible balance. You seem like a very capable rider!

Overall not too bad! Have fun getting her back into shape  You're on the right track! 
I suggest working on different sized circles, working on bending and adjusting her strides and speed. Lots of transitions (especially downwards) to work on getting her hind end engaged, and to help with balance. And lots of long trotting


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I just have one question, not really a critique as I think that has mostly been covered.

You've been riding for two weeks and are already schooling lateral work and canter?
When I brought my mare back from a year off we were strictly to be walking with 5 minutes of trot per day for nearly a month. Has a vet recommended a conditioning schedule for her?


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

IndiesaurusRex said:


> You're right about the impulsion, to me it looks like she's barely trotting/cantering at all! Also, not criticizing at all, but why do you choose to school without a saddle? I'm not saying it in nastiness *at all* but it's just not something I would do? It might help your hand/leg movement if you're in a saddle


I'm riding bareback because her saddle no longer fits her lack-of-topline back. =]



tinyliny said:


> Leah (now I know your name!)
> 
> I , too , saw the puppy paws and this was going to be my main comment. Puppy paws make it harder to have a truly following hand/elbow, so this is important to changes. Think of your thumb on top of your gently closed fist as a roof, and put a little bend in your thumb, THEN when you ride think of your thumb as pointing directly to the rings of the bit, now matter where horse puts her head.
> 
> ...


Thank you! As mentioned, I know my hands are terrible. What's worse, or maybe better, they're actually way better than they used to be. I haven't had lessons in... three-ish years, so my equitation has gone to hell. Eek. 

It is entirely possible my hips are stiff. Those, too, are better than they used to be. I'm working with a chiropractor to help, and it's something I'll make sure I continue to think of. =]

Lastly, you got the name right, but they spelling wrong. It's Leigha. =D



Wallaby said:


> The only thing I saw, other than what the other posters have mentioned, is that it seemed to me like Ricci was very braced through her neck against your hands. It looked almost like you were trying to pull her into a "correct" headset and she was having none of it...
> Maybe that's not the case at all, I know she's had a lot of time off recently because of lameness issues, if I remember correctly, so maybe she's still hurting a bit or something, I don't know. But, I felt like I should mention that brace-y-ness since I saw it.
> I'm not sure what to suggest since I am very inept in the area of collection/encouraging a horse to round, like I understand it mentally but I have no idea how to put it into practice physically, so hopefully a person who is more experienced in that area will come along and say something.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much, Emily!

I admit that while bareback, I do "gently force" a bit of a headset. She is not an easy horse to ride. Maybe I make it look easy, but most people can't sit her trot in a saddle, and I've had a lot of people, instructors even, on her. I'm not bragging, promise, just explaining why I ask for a "set." I'm not looking for or expecting anything too much, just steadiness and that she keeps her nose out of the air. If she gets too strung out, I can't sit, which makes me bounce on her back, which makes her throw her head higher, which makes me bounce harder and then... you get the idea. =]

And I love my girl. I'm glad our relationship shines through. =]



x Branded Heart x said:


> Props to you for riding so well bareback
> I enjoy schooling bareback often (I find it helps my horse to better understand seat aids, and makes me pay more attention to keeping steady gaits!)
> I'm also super lazy and don't feel like getting out my saddle everyday
> 
> ...


Thank you for the critique, I think I already addressed most of it, but didn't want to exclude you. Will definitely work on circles. Would you believe this mare hardly circled at all under saddle before me?! She was a WP mare for years, "retired" to trails, and then was a pasture puff. The first time I asked her to circle was met with a lot of confusion, lol. 



~*~anebel~*~ said:


> I just have one question, not really a critique as I think that has mostly been covered.
> 
> You've been riding for two weeks and are already schooling lateral work and canter?
> When I brought my mare back from a year off we were strictly to be walking with 5 minutes of trot per day for nearly a month. Has a vet recommended a conditioning schedule for her?


The shoulder-in is and always has been part of out warm up. We have never gone past a walk, she's not quite ready for lateral trot work yet. Maybe before her lameness issues, but not now.

I appreciate your concern and want to assure you that her conditioning is being taken very carefully and with utmost caution. I only push her as far as she can go, and am sure to back off if I feel it is pushing her too far. And no, my vet is not involved in any reconditioning program.


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

First video:
You need to loosen up your back and hips and allow them to follow Ricci's movement. She is travelling super hollow and short-strided, but it's nearly impossible for her to round up if your back is blocking her back and her hind end energy. If you move better with her in a saddle, work with a saddle for a while to get her moving forwards and round, and focus on your back moving with her, not against her. Your hands are a bit bouncy, make sure you're not locking your elbow. Puppy paws! Shorten your reins a good six inches and keep your elbow bent. 
In the second video, you can really see how your back being tense completely shuts her down and makes her really hollow her back.
The canter videos really show me how tense your back is - you're "pumping" at the canter, which can be due to a tight back. Make sure you're pushing her forwards - you can see her almost four-beat at some points. Her hind end is just lagging behind - you want to bring her so that she's working off her hind end, not dragging it around. 
Regarding headset - don't force it at all. Period. She can't round the way she's moving right now - period. You might get her nose down here and there, but she isn't rounded, which is what you want to achieve. She needs to learn impulsion first, and you need to loosen up and follow her motion before either of you can contimplate un-hollowing Ricci's back. An instructor would greatly help to get you both moving in the right direction - no pun intended. Ricci looks like a sweet horse that wants to please you, which will really do nothing but work in your favor as you come back into work.


----------



## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

ALOT of good advise in this post and I'm not the best at critiquing so going to leave that to the pro's, but beautiful mare! Could tell from her nice, slow canter she was WP at some point! Good luck bringing her back and keep at it!


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

EveningShadows said:


> Could tell from her nice, slow canter she was WP at some point! Good luck bringing her back and keep at it!


I agree that the mare is indeed very cute, but I disagree about this statement. The canter is _too _slow and the hindquarter is disengaged.


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks JDI!

My back is indeed tense. Low back pain from a bad fall that chiropractic is slowly fixing, and I also hold a lot of tension in my shoulders and in between my shoulder blades.

I would love to take lessons, it's just not in the cards right now, I couldn't afford to bring an instructor out. I know I need eyes on the ground for me.

I cannot ride in a saddle right now as it doesn't fit. The year off took a huge toll on her topline, so it's either ride bareback or rig her up in sidereins. As soon as her saddle fits again, I'll be sure to use it again. I can focus on her a little more as I don't have to keep myself from falling off, lol.

I explained to Wallaby, I am not trying to force a headset in the grand scheme of things, but I simply cannot ride her trot bareback without some semblance of "frame" on her end. I would be bounced right off her back.

As far as her canter, I have a question. I know I need to push her forward, she lacks impulsion clearly. The problem is if I drive drive drive, and don't keep her in this... partial frame, for lack of a better term, she gets strung out, looses all rhthym, and ends up crossfiring while tracking right. Have you a guess of what I'm doing wrong, or any tips on getting the impulsion without losing her balance? I know she is far from ideal, but she is far more balanced in contact like I have in the videos than when I don't ask for such contact. Would you have any idea where my error there would be?

Thanks in advance!!

And thank you Evening, I love my mare. She's super stellar, you couldn't ask for a more willing partner. =]


----------



## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

Well, I think it's great that you've made the choice to ride her without a saddle in that case!! It's nice to see someone placing their horse's comfort rather than their own first, I hate to see an ill-fitting saddle on any horse!


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I would never put my girl through that discomfort. Even worse is I know she would truck along as angelic as ever, no matter how much her back hurt. Ricci's a saint. =]

We did have a pretty productive ride today. Our trot was much steadier and she had a ton more impulsion at the trot and the canter. I am very sore, lol.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I might involve a vet in her conditioning, especially if you say she has lameness issues.
Even though you are only doing shoulder in in the walk, it is still causing wear and tear. And after two weeks I would not be cantering undersaddle.
The first "system" of the horse to respond to a conditioning program is the respiratory system, the final one is the system of bones and joints. If you are pushing her to a point and backing off based on her reapiratory responses, you are overstressing her muscles, tendons, ligaments and bony structures.
I highly highly recommend a 5 minute phone call with a vet to work out a program that will not place her soundness further in jeopardy.

Here are some pertinent websites, nowhere can I find any writing that it is safe to introduce lateral work to an unfit horse, even at the walk:
Bringing the Sport Horse Back from an Injury | Lameness and Performance | Meddleton Equine Hospital
Getting the Horse Back into Work Safely | Wendy's Horse Adventures

Good luck!


ETA: you say she is crossfiring in the canter - this is a CLEAR sign she should not be doing the work! She is not strong enough to hold a lead behind and need more strengthening walk work before she should be cantering.


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Again, I appreciate your concern, Anebel, but bringing a vet in for reconditioning would be pointless. I know my mare. She's fine. My vet would just encourage me to do what I'm doing. She's staying sound, I'm not pushing her to respiratory distress, she really is fine. Her crossfiring at the canter has always been an issue; at liberty, on the lunge, and under saddle. It is not new. If you would like to give a critique, I would greatly appreciate it, but any further comments on her reconditioning will likely be ignored, as it is a non-issue. Thank you! =]


----------



## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Actually.. has a vet given her a complete once-over, including a soundness exam (i.e. stress tests) within the past 6 months to a year? Cross-firing at the canter occasionally isn't too concerning - but a horse that does it frequently (especially at liberty and on the lunge) might have a physical problem, and could be concerning. My guess when hearing this is that the problem originates in the stifles or pelvis - they get "stuck" for lack of a better term.


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

She doesn't crossfire when she has a good trot warm-up. If I can get her steady and balanced at the trot, her canter is never an issue. I don't watch her run at liberty, not do I lunge very often, so I'm not sure how often, or even the last time I saw her do it. She wasn't doing it undersaddle for the three or so months before her hoof issue, and she hasn't done it since. If it starts up again and she is getting decent trot work in, I'll definitely look into it. As of now, I'm not terribly concerned with it though.


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

riccil0ve said:


> If you would like to give a critique, I would greatly appreciate it, but any further comments on her reconditioning will likely be ignored, as it is a non-issue. Thank you! =]



That's not cool Ricci. You can't only ask for the opinions that you agree with. 

If you are certain that you are correct you would be willing to talk about it and justify your reasons. But to say I will ignore you if you talk about it again is childish, and you should probably be asking for support rather than a critique.


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I fail to see how that is not cool? All I can do is assure everyone that Ricci is okay and up to the work we are doing, and that I am not pushing her. What would have been a better way to handle it? And this is a legit question. I don't want to come off as close-minded.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

riccil0ve said:


> Her crossfiring at the canter has always been an issue; at liberty, on the lunge, and under saddle. It is not new.





riccil0ve said:


> I don't watch her run at liberty, not do I lunge very often, so I'm not sure how often, or even the last time I saw her do it.


:?::think:
That story changed pretty quickly (in 2 hours she went from doing it all the time to you not ever watching her).
First she does it all the time so it is not a big deal and then you do not watch her at liberty, etc.



riccil0ve said:


> I don't want to come off as close-minded.


Then you are failing because you are coming off as close-minded. Very much so.
Anebel is actually making a very good point.

Proper reconditioning takes time. Any lateral work is more work than a horse should be doing when they are first coming back into work.




riccil0ve said:


> She's staying sound


I would not consider a horse that is perpetually cross cantering to be sound. Unless it is a consistent rider cuing problem, which I doubt is the problem here since you said that she does it at liberty and on the lunge.



riccil0ve said:


> She doesn't crossfire when she has a good trot warm-up.


This too screams there is an issue going on. If nothing else it screams that she is not in good enough shape to be moving on to cantering yet.


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I never said she always did it. My story did not change. I said it was not a new issue, I had seen her do it before. Then I just added that it had been awhile since I saw her crossfire. That doesn't mean I never saw, or always saw it.

I have accepted all the critique given on this thread. I asked questions to help us. Bringing my vet in for a reconditioning program would be pointless, he would tell me he trusted my judgment because he knows I wouldn't push her, and that I know my mare. Bringing in a new vet would just cost money I don't have, just to hear she is doing fine.

We ride for maybe thirty minutes, mostly around twenty. Ricci sets the pace. We don't always canter. Even when we do, it is only a lap or too. I also do not feel that several strides of a shoulder in are going to be terribly detrimental. If I don't do them in our warm up, I'll be killing myself at the trot keeping her moving off my inside leg. She is not an easy horse to ride. I take our warm up seriously, it is vital to any success in a faster gait. I don't see the point in setting her up for failure like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

riccil0ve said:


> What would have been a better way to handle it? And this is a legit question. I don't want to come off as close-minded.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


By leaving this bit out. 



riccil0ve said:


> but any further comments on her reconditioning will likely be ignored, as it is a non-issue.


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

My apologies if that came across poorly. I just didn't want this thread to turn into whether I should be riding or not, you know? I don't have any experienced enough friends who can give me feedback while I'm riding, and I cannot afford to have an instructor out. This is the only way I can get feedback, and I know we need it.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

No one said not to ride. They said you are rushing your re-hab riding. 
When a horse, even more so an older horse, has been out of work for any amount of time (even weeks) you have to take steps to get them back into condition so they are not injuring themselves while they try to over do it because they are being a good horse and doing what their rider has asked of them.

I admit it, I was shocked at the schedule my vet gave me the first time I brought my horse back into condition. 
I even said "I can only walk for how long?".

Some things are worth it for the long run.


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I can understand and appreciate that. I will give it some thought.


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Bump? Anymore critiques, guys? =D


----------



## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Hey Ricci my dear - you two look like a great pair, and your girl is absolutely beautiful! I was in the same boat last year with Nelson, when he was injured due to kicking his stall wall, causing that hind right leg to blow up immensely. 

The pressure ending up having no where to go but out, after countless attempts to bring it down through cold poutlicing, cold hosing, wrapping and ointments - resulting to this:



















The swelling went down immensely after the liquid escaped, but it then resulted to tons of other venues of care. I spent a lot of time getting that leg back to the shape it should be, with my Vet being very involved through each step. 



















During that process, I was given permission to hand walk him, which he thoroughly enjoyed, and by the time we got to this:










I was finally given permission by my vet, after extensive examinations throughout the process, to beable to ride him. I was given strict instructions that were printed out for me biweekly and sent to me in the mail.

The first 2 weeks, I was only allowed to walk him. Nothing more than that. Lots of strait work, and TONS of long and low - starting from 20 mintues a ride for the first few days, to a 1/2 hour a ride, to eventually being able to ride him for 45 mintues to an hour.



















Then, I was finally able to do trot work, with large circles added and so on and so on. He recouped quickly actually, everyone was quite amazed at how fast he came around, and when everything was finally said and done, we were able to get back to regular riding work, lessons, jumping and compeating.

It is a long process, but well worth it 

Now granted, Nelson was not off for a year - only a few months, but I took baby steps. Another story - my Besties TB gelding hurt his sacarilliac *sp* which is located on the top of his rump, right inbetween his hips. He was on stall rest for a year - he went from being a 3'0"+ Hunter/Jumper, very successful, before his injury, to a horse who is doing basic work and not jumping anything bigger than 2'6". He came off stall rest last Spring, and is just now starting collection work.

You can do it Ricci! I know you love your mare very much! 

My advice is, get a Chiro to come out, perhaps she needs an adjustment, or better yet, have a vet come out and assess her, to find out why she is cross firing - my suspision is chiro, could be hock issues - never know unless you get professionals involved.

Also, get a saddle that fits and go back to the basics. Lots of walk, impuslive walk getting her to move forward, opening herself up, and tracking up. Your hips should swing due to her walk. Just work lots on that gait, getting her to round her back, stretch and build up her muscles from back to front.

Then after about 2 weeks of continuous and dilligent work at the walk, merge to trot. Same story, impulsion, energy, open up her front and allow her to move under herself. Lots of strait work, trot poles, raised trot poles/cavaletti's - or better yet, get her out on the trails doing only walk and trot.

I would not be thinking about any canter work at this point, or lateral work as of yet - work on getting her balanced first, and get those muscles working, building up, and get that conditioning up to par through the first 2 gaits. Ride back to front, making sure that she is using herself correctly and properly - and you have to make sure you are using yourself properly, so that she can be using herself/her body/muscles well and efficiantly.

I know you love your girl very much and you only want to ensure her happiness and soundness.


----------



## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Thank you for all the input, MIE. We'll back off a bit, although I can't get a saddle. Hers will fit once her topline comes back. I can't afford another one.

As far as her crossfiring, I've had the chiropractor out for her once and brought it up. She couldn't find anything in her hip to cause it. The leg she doesn't like to use is also the hoof that will... twist out as she steps off it. Imagine walking and bringing your heel out everytime you step. The chiropractor [slash vet, by the way] guessed that was more or less the problem, a hitch in her normal way of going. She has done that with that hoof since before I met her.

Our last ride was getting her moving up at the walk. It was a lot of work, lol. I'm still sore. We'll continue to play it by ear. Thanks again!


----------

