# Horse trade gone bad



## ShannonSevenfold

Unfortunately, she is right. The deal is done. If she will not agree to trade back, you're just going to have to cut your losses. I have been in this situation (on the other end) and there's pretty much nothing you can do. It sucks, I know.


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## WickedNag

Well, IMO a horse is only worth what someone is willing to pay. So the lady you traded with may have very well thought it was an even trade...or that she got the short end of the stick. 

I think this is the same horse in another thread here and that it has sarcoids. PPE would have helped and so would you being there when the trade took place. 

I would find it hard to believe that no everyone of us has at some point lost money dealing in horses. Sorry to hear this happened, but I do not believe you have recourse.


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## DancingArabian

I think you're out of luck. You should have gotten a PPE. Your parents should have waited for you.

If your horse is worth so much and the other so little, why in the world would you agree to a trade like that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arabianhorselover19

I had no idea the horse had sarcoids or I would have never done the trade, we are located in Saskatchewan. I got his papers back in my name as I phoned the registry and told them the deal was a no go and the lady will not return the horse, they cancelled the transfer and sending me a certificate. But is it illegal to do what I did? I talked to a lawyer and he said we could sue for the knowledge with held and putting other horses in harms way. I'm just not sure if I want to sue as all I want is my horse back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

I dont understand why anyone would buy a horse without even trying it never mind looking at it. If you cant see the horse in the flesh then you should certainly have had a PPE. 
I'm sorry you are in this situation but I cant see that you have any way out of it. I will look for the thread on the sarcoid. Does your vet think its life threatening or more cosmetic and can be safely removed? There are grey areas as to whether they are considered to be an unsoundness - if it is then you might have a case as in a reputable sale a known unsoundness has to be declared
Posting these sort of legal arguments between a seller and a buyer on facebook is a really bad idea - communications like this are best kept on a private level at this stage. 
A letter from your lawyer backed up by your vets opinion on the sarcoid need not involve actually sueing this person but could be enough to make them agree to what you want


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## nikelodeon79

Your post is extremely hard to follow...

Are you saying the other horse owner offered your horse back when you first discovered the health problem and you said no, let's do a two week trial? Why didn't you agree to switch back then? Why give her daughter more off an opportunity to bond with the horse? The way you worded it makes it sound like you would only need to switch back if SHE decided that your horse wasn't a good fit.

Something isn't adding up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

Based on her other thread, I'm thinking this is more a matter of sour grapes and seller remorse than anything else.

If the horse has sarcoids so badly that her health is severely compromised, the OP should have been able to see them.


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## ShannonSevenfold

You called and told the registry that the sale was off even though it's not? Yes, that's illegal. You can't go behind her back to take the horse's papers back. She's not going to give your horse back if she doesn't want to. And I don't think you should sue because I don't think you'll win. Your lawyer just wants to get paid.


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## nikelodeon79

Just read the other thread and I wish the other party was a member here so she could provide these threads to her lawyer. I can't believe this poster is planning on putting one horse down and taking back the other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AbsitVita

I'm confused, either you knew about the sarcoids before the trade went through or after....

At any rate it really sucks to be you when the other party involved in the trade finds out you cancelled the transfer on the registration papers. Shannon is right, it was illegal what you did. I hope you have a really good attorney...but I hope you are more mature in the next deal you make on a horse, because it seems as though you want to blame your parents for your mistake by your decided absence on the day of the trade. Please educate yourself in the horse world and in the law beforehand...ALWAYS ALWAYS have a licensed vet perform a PPE on a horse that you plan to acquire. It will save you from situations like the one you're in now.


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## wetrain17

nikelodeon79 said:


> Just read the other thread and I wish the other party was a member here so she could provide these threads to her lawyer. I can't believe this poster is planning on putting one horse down and taking back the other.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Can you post the link to this other thread?


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## mls

AbsitVita said:


> I hope you have a really good attorney..


Pretty sure the OP is just talking big. If she indeed did have an attorney, they would be telling her to keep her fingers quiet.


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## AbsitVita

mls said:


> Pretty sure the OP is just talking big. If she indeed did have an attorney, they would be telling her to keep her fingers quiet.


Sorry, what I meant by that was that I hope she has a really good attorney who can fast talk her out of serious criminal charges, when the other party finds out what she did when she cancelled the transfer on the reg papers.


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## nikelodeon79

wetrain17 said:


> Can you post the link to this other thread?


 http://www.horseforum.com/horse-law/illegal-138163/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mls

AbsitVita said:


> Sorry, what I meant by that was that I hope she has a really good attorney who can fast talk her out of serious criminal charges, when the other party finds out what she did when she cancelled the transfer on the reg papers.


Oh - I totally understand what you are saying!

Typically when folks jump on their computer and start throwing "my attorney" around, there is NO attorney.

Also - unless things are different in Canada - if this person is under 18, she can not enter into a binding contract.


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## Shoebox

Between the two threads I am astonished. You traded horses without seeing them and without a PPE, and now you want your horse back, going so far as to illegally try to get the papers back. You're upset about it and are willing to put the poor horse to sleep because of YOUR mistake. That's awful, and I don't have any sympathy for you. If you're so upset about the horse, instead of killing it off why don't you give him away or try to sell him? You aren't going to get your horse back, it's a done trade without contract. 

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but you sound irresponsible and guilty about trading away your horse. It's your responsibility to go see the horse beforehand, ride it, get a PPE and draw up a contract. Otherwise, things like this happen. Please don't make the horse pay for your mistakes. His sarcoids are NOT contagious, despite what you seem to think, and they don't sound like they are serious enough to affect his health. A horse is an animal, not something to throw away if you decide you don't like it.

EDIT: mls, yes, she can't enter into a binding contract, but her parents can. They seemed willing to help out. Any contract is better than no contract at all.


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## WickedNag

Can a person just call a registry and tell them not to transfer the papers that the trade was going to be null and void? Seems outrageous to me...


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## ShannonSevenfold

WickedNag said:


> Can a person just call a registry and tell them not to transfer the papers that the trade was going to be null and void? Seems outrageous to me...


I was wondering about that, too. If you CAN do that, that is a seriously flawed system. Once you sign the papers over, that should be it.


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## Speed Racer

If the papers have been signed over, the registry shouldn't just go by what some disgruntled former owner is stating. That can get them into some very legal hot water.

Besides, registration papers don't denote actual ownership. If they did there are a lot of horses out there who still belong to their breeders, since subsequent owners never bothered to transfer the animal into their name, or the papers were lost.

For that particular_ registry_ they denote ownership. For the general purpose of law, a bill of sale supersedes registration paperwork. The only thing blocking a transfer does is make sure the new owner can't take their horse to breed shows.


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## jaydee

I have re-read the OP's post and it seems to me that the registration she cancelled is actually the one of the horse she now has (complete with sarcoids) and not of the horse she sold

In the UK sarcoids have to be declared when a horse is sold at warranted auction as people often bid by telephone based on a description only and also usually the case in any advert as she are seen as an unsoundness and also greatly devalue the horse. Most people wont buy a horse with sarcoids

I do think that the OP has been foolish/naive and not handled the situation well but I also think that the seller was unscrupulous in her actions


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## mls

jaydee said:


> I do think that the OP has been foolish/naive and not handled the situation well but I also think that the seller was unscrupulous in her actions


I will disagree.

The seller brought the horse to the OP. Upon arrival the OP had every chance to inspect the horse. But nope - OP was not there upon arrival. "Seller" did not try to pull anything.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I don't know about the Canadian registry but for AHA here's the rule for ownership transfers:

REG 124. CHANGE IN RECORDED OWNERSHIP FOR HORSES WITH A STANDARD CERTIFICATE OF REGISTRATION
To transfer the recorded ownership of a registered horse which has a standard Certificate of Registration, the recorded owner must complete and sign the transfer portion of the Certificate of Registration. A transfer of recorded ownership may be recorded if the following requirements are met: 

The completed and signed Certificate of Registration has been sent to the AHA Registry;
The horse was resident in the United States or Mexico on the date of sale indicated; and
The transfer fee has been paid.
On the back of the registration certificate is a section for the "Seller" that says:

The seller listed below must complete this section.
NAME OF CURRENT OWNER

A. Date of Sale _____________________________
OR
B. Contract Sale
Begining Date of Contract ____________________________

Ending Date of Contract _______________________________

Sellers Signature(s)

There are 2 lines in case of multiple owners. 

Then the Buyer's Section: 
The Buyer (new recorded owner) must complete this section. Please enter your ownership number below. If you have never registered a purebred Arabian in your name, leave this line blank and an ownership number will be established for you. 

And then follows several lines for Ownership Number, Ownership Name, Address, & phones, and then signatures. 

As far as AHA is concerned, this is proof of ownership. A Bill of Sale is nice but not necessary. As a seller, I check fairly frequently to make sure all horses that I don't own are transferred out even if the new owner never transfers them. If you check one of those horses they show up as me being last owner but then it says, STATUS Owner no longer owns, and gives the date I reported it to the registry. 

I could not call and tell them to cancel a transfer. Once those papers are signed and someone has paid the transfer fee, there is a new owner as witnessed by my signature and I no longer own that horse and hoave no right to cancel the transaction.


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## Speed Racer

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> As a seller, I check fairly frequently to make sure all horses that I don't own are transferred out even if the new owner never transfers them. If you check one of those horses they show up as me being last owner but then it says, STATUS Owner no longer owns, and gives the date I reported it to the registry.


Didn't know that, DA; very cool! Glad to hear a previous owner can report that the horse has been sold/given away. 

I know I should report my heart horse's death to the AHA, but I don't want to get his papers back with DECEASED stamped all over them. I know it doesn't make him any less dead, but I'd rather not get that reminder from them. :-(


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## jaydee

mls said:


> I will disagree.
> 
> The seller brought the horse to the OP. Upon arrival the OP had every chance to inspect the horse. But nope - OP was not there upon arrival. "Seller" did not try to pull anything.


 I'm not saying that the OP behaved correctly or responsibly - she didn't but as someone who made a living out of working on a yard for many years that was partly involved in selling and also selling horses myself for some time after, as someone with a good reputation for honest and straight deals I would have been obliged to state that this horse had a sarcoid up front - (a) because of the soundness issue I have seen sarcoids get out of control and the horse does have to be euthanised to spare it the suffering) and (b) Because a sarcoid has a big impact on the value of the horse
I am NOT defending the OP but if I had behaved like the seller in a small country like the UK I would not have stayed in good esteem for very long and would have been prosecuted for misrepresenting a horse for sale
Dalehead Veterinary Group | Factsheet: Sarcoids - what you need to know
I dont know how the law works in the US but in the UK they have to be declared in any sale


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## wetrain17

This seems to be a recurring theme on this forum. IMO, anyone who buys/trades (whatever the situation may be) a horse and doesn't get a PPE on the horse, has no right to go to the seller and complain about the horse and ask for a return. You (general) as a buyer have every right to get a PPE on a horse; not doing one is just irresponsible and is no one's fault but your own.

OP you will get no sympathy from me and the only advise I have for you is to take this as a lesson learned and never make the same mistake again.


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## HorseMom1025

Color me confused, but why would someone trade a great, broke gelding for a green mare worth only 1/4 the price? Did you get something else in the trade to make it more equitable?

I just cannot image going into a trade willingly when I wasn't getting something at least close in value...

Is this common with horse trading?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

HorseMom1025 said:


> I just cannot image going into a trade willingly when I wasn't getting something at least close in value...
> 
> Is this common with horse trading?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nope, not common at all. There had to be some other reason the OP was willing to trade a completely broke gelding for a greenbroke mare.

I'm fairly certain we're only getting one _very_ slanted side of the story. :wink:


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## jaydee

HorseMom1025 said:


> Color me confused, but why would someone trade a great, broke gelding for a green mare worth only 1/4 the price? Did you get something else in the trade to make it more equitable?
> 
> I just cannot image going into a trade willingly when I wasn't getting something at least close in value...
> 
> Is this common with horse trading?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you may be confused - or I am missing a post somewhere.
Where does it say that she traded a great broke gelding for a green mare?
I think she thought she was doing an equal value exchange deal and now finds that the horse she has ended up with is only worth $1000 due to it having sarcoids and not the $4000 it was being sold for.
She doesn't say why she wanted rid of her other horse - maybe that had problems and she thought that the new horse was the lesser of the two evils.
Buying 'blind' off the internet or from kill pens etc is a massive gamble but people still keep doing it.


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## HorseMom1025

Sorry, I thought I had read that in one of the two threads about this situation...I just retread the threads.

So, I guess she "thought" the mare was worth $4,000, but now that she has her, she thinks the value is much less. I guess that makes more sense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

HorseMom1025 said:


> Sorry, I thought I had read that in one of the two threads about this situation...I just retread the threads.
> 
> So, I guess she "thought" the mare was worth $4,000, but now that she has her, she thinks the value is much less. I guess that makes more sense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 My grandmother used to say
'you know what thought did'
I could never grasp the understanding of it but it sort of makes sense in a situation like this!!!!


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## Cat

HorseMom1025 said:


> Color me confused, but why would someone trade a great, broke gelding for a green mare worth only 1/4 the price? Did you get something else in the trade to make it more equitable?
> 
> I just cannot image going into a trade willingly when I wasn't getting something at least close in value...
> 
> Is this common with horse trading?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You read that in the other thread. Someone different was sharing their story of when they traded their green broke gelding for someone else's well broke mare. It sounded like they wanted a well broke horse and the other was a self-professed trainer looking for a project. The trainer wasn't so great as they claimed and put the green horse down claiming it was dangerous and then tried to get the mare back.


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## Celeste

Has the horse even been examined by a licensed veterinarian?
Has there been a biopsy done? What did the pathology report say?

If this were clear intent to defraud, then the OP may have a case. Just because the horse has an ugly "boo boo" on it is not a legal case.


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## HorseMom1025

Cat said:


> You read that in the other thread. Someone different was sharing their story of when they traded their green broke gelding for someone else's well broke mare. It sounded like they wanted a well broke horse and the other was a self-professed trainer looking for a project. The trainer wasn't so great as they claimed and put the green horse down claiming it was dangerous and then tried to get the mare back.


That was it! Thanks Cat, I knew I had read it somewhere. I guess I'm reading too many threads today and can't keep them straight in my head. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arabianhorselover19

I would have been fine with the trade but when we got our vet to check out what was on her neck made me want my horse back, I have only had the horse for less then a week. I had no knowledge of what it was, our first thought it was ring worm only to find out it was a sarcoid , I live in Canada, I do not want any ones sympathy I just posted hoping to find help but with people being rude and not fully understanding the question I am finished using this forum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Speed Racer said:


> Didn't know that, DA; very cool! Glad to hear a previous owner can report that the horse has been sold/given away.
> 
> I know I should report my heart horse's death to the AHA, but I don't want to get his papers back with DECEASED stamped all over them. I know it doesn't make him any less dead, but I'd rather not get that reminder from them. :-(


You no longer have to turn in his papers. Just send them a note or call them and give them his date of death and they'll put it in their records but the papers don't have to be changed.


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## smrobs

Okay, this whole thing just infuriates me to no end. You agreed to trade for a horse that you'd never seen. You didn't have a PPE done. You didn't even look at the horse before taking possession of it. Now, you're having a snit fit and trying to demand they give you back the other horse because _you_ couldn't be bothered to check out the mare before agreeing to the trade.

And, to top it all off, you are threatening to put the horse down because of "A" sarcoid on her neck. "A" sarcoid will not be life threatening. "A" sarcoid is essentially nothing more than a blemish which, by the way, can be treated! They are NOT contagious. 

I feel very sorry for the mare and the poor person who entered into this trade with you. You went into the exchange without doing the proper diligence and now you're blaming the other person for your _own_ lack of responsibility. Not only that, but you are willing to put down a perfectly good horse for no other reason than spite, it seems to me.

What kind of person are you? :evil:


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## nikelodeon79

nikelodeon79 said:


> Just read the other thread and I wish the other party was a member here so she could provide these threads to her lawyer. I can't believe this poster is planning on putting one horse down and taking back the other.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Correction: the poster is threatening to kill the new horse only if the old horse isn't returned. A good, old fashioned case of blackmail, using the poor horse's life as the ultimatum. This just gets better and better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShannonSevenfold

OP, that was a pretty boring hairflip.


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## AbsitVita

Thats why I said she has no business owning a horse, essentially....


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