# Trabag - Manchado Chestnut Arabian



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Pedigree?
Im asking because there was a big German breeder who relocated to Argentina in the 60's, I believe......although unlikely of his lines...they were mainly dark bay and black, an occasional chestnut, with nearly zero chrome.....


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

This is all I could find:

Trabag Arabian

I know she was owned by Lady Wentworth and was shown and won Championships. 
Still doing some more digging, so I'll post what I find out.


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## Cacowgirl (Feb 19, 2011)

Wow! That is very interesting. I can't wait to see what you dig up on her.


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

She is super cool looking, kind of has the same pattern as a pintaloosa.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

WSArabians said:


> This is all I could find:
> 
> Trabag Arabian
> 
> ...


She lived earlier than "my" German emigrants. 
Truly interesting, tho. There's gotta be a full pedigree somewhere of her. 
Now I wish Mr. Chairman of the German association would read this...for him any Arabian with any pinto marking can't be purebred......


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Yes environmental factor I'd say. Probably fungal :/
But she's cool!


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

White markings and fungal infections « The Equine Tapestry


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

It's highly likely to be an environmental factor since it _is_ only in horses living in Argentina (Arabians, Thoroughbreds, etc.) so it technically isn't a pinto pattern as it wouldn't be hereditary if it was environmental. I would call it an environmentally-induced pinto mimic XD

Gotta say, though, it's a gorgeous thing to look at.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Reno Bay said:


> It's highly likely to be an environmental factor since it _is_ only in horses living in Argentina (Arabians, Thoroughbreds, etc.) so it technically isn't a pinto pattern as it wouldn't be hereditary if it was environmental. I would call it an environmentally-induced pinto mimic XD
> 
> Gotta say, though, it's a gorgeous thing to look at.


I don't know. I think I am in the "recessive gene" camp. If it's environmental, why do we not see more of it? For that matter, if it's environmental, is it something mares are exposed to during gestation? I can't find any pictures of a foal displaying the pattern, but if it were something that was a drastic change of coat like a fungal infection could cause, why are there no reports of that part of it?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Ahem, I'm gonna say it's 'environmental' just like the French Arabs looking like TBs is 'environmental.... It's one of the reasons AHA was out of WAHO for a long time, they wouldn't accept the South American Arabs as pure.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Actually, there are/were quite a few Arabians that are/were very colored. I don't think it was environmental.


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

I remember another discussion about this mare and the "pattern". The active theory was that it was something to do with the water. Can't remember the details. 

Unless I am mistaken, Manchado means something like "stained", which i think is cute.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

grayshell38 said:


> I remember another discussion about this mare and the "pattern". The active theory was that it was something to do with the water. Can't remember the details.
> 
> Unless I am mistaken, Manchado means something like "stained", which i think is cute.


Again, my problem with this is that they are not isolated horses producing the foals, so if there is something in the water, why are the foals not popping up more frequently in those areas? It's not like these horses are being fed from private springs or anything.


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## Lesli (Feb 9, 2013)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Ahem, I'm gonna say it's 'environmental' just like the French Arabs looking like TBs is 'environmental.... It's one of the reasons AHA was out of WAHO for a long time, they wouldn't accept the South American Arabs as pure.


Yes. 

There are several posts on the Manchado pattern on my blog. Trabag is the only Arabian known to display the pattern, but it has occurred in low levels in a number of breeds in Argentina. My personal suspicion is that its presence in Argentina is due to a founder effect, and not "something in the water". I explain that at greater length in the blog posts, and in the chapter on the color in my book (Equine Tapestry). 

Manchado overo « The Equine Tapestry
(scrolling down will take you to the start of the topic)

I also included one of the charts on the pattern in a post about an upcoming book release. Again, you'll need to scroll down to find it.

What the New Year will bring « The Equine Tapestry


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## Elizabeth Bowers (Jan 26, 2012)

Subbing!!! This thread about color is amazing!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Its really facinating.
I have known bad cases of ringworm to grow back permanently white and its common for horses that have had skin damage from badly fitting saddles to do the same but the markings on this horse look too extensive for something like that - it would have been literally raw in huge areas.
A copper deficiency can effect a dependant enzyme called tyrosinase that is linked to melanin production and is also linked to albinoism but you'd expect other health problems with that


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> I don't know. I think I am in the "recessive gene" camp. If it's environmental, why do we not see more of it? For that matter, if it's environmental, is it something mares are exposed to during gestation? I can't find any pictures of a foal displaying the pattern, but if it were something that was a drastic change of coat like a fungal infection could cause, why are there no reports of that part of it?


I agree. Even if it is environmental and whatever causes it only comes out in, say, May, wouldn't you still see more affected foals? Or hear more about older horses changing coat patterns? 

I think about how rare you see a blue eyed Arabian pop up - because it's was bred out for so long, it's rare to see a blue eyed purebred Arabian. So maybe this Manchado gene is just highly recessive? 
I wonder if they are thinking of doing any more genetic testing on it now that we've come way further advanced in terms of isolating genes, etc.


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> I agree. Even if it is environmental and whatever causes it only comes out in, say, May, wouldn't you still see more affected foals? Or hear more about older horses changing coat patterns?
> 
> I think about how rare you see a blue eyed Arabian pop up - because it's was bred out for so long, it's rare to see a blue eyed purebred Arabian. So maybe this Manchado gene is just highly recessive?
> I wonder if they are thinking of doing any more genetic testing on it now that we've come way further advanced in terms of isolating genes, etc.


That does make sense.

The thing that gets me is: a highly recessive gene that has ever only shown up in Argentina and nowhere else in the world as long as horses have existed? That's a bit of a stretch to me...


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Reno Bay said:


> That does make sense.
> 
> The thing that gets me is: a highly recessive gene that has ever only shown up in Argentina and nowhere else in the world as long as horses have existed? That's a bit of a stretch to me...


There are(were?) significant question marks over the purity of at least the Arabians in Argentina at the time though, and at least two of the horses with the pattern have been related to each other. If the mutation appeared in Argentina, supposing it is a mutation, then it would be isolated to horses related to the "case zero", and if they weren't being bred for colour, then the gene could easily be hiding for generations, or even bred out.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

The gene pool in Argentina may have been flooded with the introduction of other Arab lines........once a gene pool has been flooded, anything recessive can become virtually non existent. Therefore the odds of seeing it pop up are 1:1000,000..........if you could get a group of horses very closely related to this particular line and line breed them for years on end, this gene may show up again........make that gene pool shallow......


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Muppetgirl said:


> The gene pool in Argentina may have been flooded with the introduction of other Arab lines........once a gene pool has been flooded, anything recessive can become virtually non existent. Therefore the odds of seeing it pop up are 1:1000,000..........if you could get a group of horses very closely related to this particular line and line breed them for years on end, this gene may show up again........make that gene pool shallow......


Exactly. Isolate a line that MAY have a new gene, and inbreed it until the family tree doesn't have branches. Not that I am advocating doing it, but that's how you do it. Turn the gene pool into a gene puddle :twisted:


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> Exactly. Isolate a line that MAY have a new gene, and inbreed it until the family tree doesn't have branches. Not that I am advocating doing it, but that's how you do it. Turn the gene pool into a gene puddle :twisted:


Oh gawd... They tried that in my little town called Newbrook.
Epic. Fail. 
Or maybe horses are just more hardy then people. :?


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> Oh gawd... They tried that in my little town called Newbrook.
> Epic. Fail.
> Or maybe horses are just more hardy then people. :?


I grew up in a small town of NZ natives and they were all 'related' in one way or another (let's not go there) but the cases of the women getting cancer and dying in their late 30's to early 40's was tremendously high......


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Muppetgirl said:


> I grew up in a small town of NZ natives and they were all 'related' in one way or another (let's not go there) but the cases of the women getting cancer and dying in their late 30's to early 40's was tremendously high......


Eesh.
These ones don't die (aside from the fact that for each year I went to the school here, one grade 12 student died - most drinking and driving) they seem to live forever. But they appear to be suffering from a severe case of Inbredinitis Stupiditis.
I can't wait until I'm rich and can move south. :shock:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

^^^^^ Well that made me smile!!!
Maybe the horses actually arent purebred at all and someone once sneaked in another breed into this little gene pool and the colour pops up again from time to time?


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

jaydee said:


> ^^^^^ Well that made me smile!!!
> Maybe the horses actually arent purebred at all and someone once sneaked in another breed into this little gene pool and the colour pops up again from time to time?


IF the horses in Argentina are crossed...maybe. Trabag is the only documented Arabian to exhibit this colour - so if the TB Manchado (whom the colour was tagged for) was not actually purebred, we could maybe go with that.


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## Lesli (Feb 9, 2013)

I believe it is more likely that the color was among the founding stock brought to the country, and not slipped in later. Argentina was a big importer of colorful stock, back before stud books were common. There were British Hackney breeders who raised tobianos specifically for that market. Some made it into the early Hackney stud books, and one was exported to the US and went on to be a foundation horse for the Moroccan Spotted Horse, but many more were said to be sent to Argentina. It is not hard to believe that other colorful animals went there, too, and that remnants in the form of a hidden recessive remained after solid colors became more fashionable. In that way, the breeders may never have knowingly included this. All it would take is that they use local mares in the early stages of their purebred breeding programs, and it could from there become a part of each domestic breeding group there.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

WS - somewhat off topic but since you queried environment as a cause and you're from Canada, do you remember talk of blue cattle found in one particular area of Quebec? This was quite a few years ago now. The cattle, as I recall, were Holsteins that apparently had a very noticeable blue in their coat colour. I don't know if they still exist today. The general concensus was that the colour resulted from their diet of whatever was growing in that region at that time.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

i saw an article about the fungal infection that causes this . I was googling odd horse colors, or something like that and ran across the article. 
It was either fungal or bacterial skin infection .


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

stevenson said:


> i saw an article about the fungal infection that causes this . I was googling odd horse colors, or something like that and ran across the article.
> It was either fungal or bacterial skin infection .


The manchado pattern is not caused by fungal scarring. The horses appear to be born with the pattern, rather than it coming later in life.

Fungal scarring is responsible for this guy:









turning into this:









Whereas manchado is born that way, and stays that way throughout life. This is Royal Manchado, the TB stallion whom the colour is named for:


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## Lesli (Feb 9, 2013)

The color was not named for Royal Manchado. That was what the color was called in Argentina. The stallion was named for his color, not the other way around.

This color is relatively new to English speakers. Certainly there were Arabian people who were familiar with Trabag from the Wentworth book where she is pictured, but she remained singular as far as anyone knew until a little more than a decade ago. At that time, someone had inquired about "leopard patterned" Hackney on a mailing list for that breed. A friend of mine raised Hackneys, and passed the photo to me. The mare was not an appaloosa at all (though someone not familiar with patterned horses might mistake her for one), but that same strange pattern as Trabag. From there I was put in touch with her breeder. He put me in touch with a man who had published a small book called "Overos Manchado", detailing the cases of this odd pattern in a variety of pure breeds. The author noted that the pattern was found in others, but he did not detail those for fear of having the pattern associated with "impure" blood. (And he was correct - the other examples I have found over the years since have been unregistered Criollos and Polo Ponies.) 

I had that book for years, but it was in Portuguese so it was quite a while before I got it translated. I did have the pictures, though - probably the largest collection of examples of the pattern. I mentioned that there was this new pattern to Dr. Sponenberg when we gave a seminar in Kentucky, and his initial response was "the sabinos down there are pretty odd". I assured him these were NOT sabinos. The points of origin for the white are all wrong for that. When he saw the images in the book I had, he agreed it really was something different. He was also able to get the book translated, which was a huge help.

In the period before Sponenberg's latest book was published - which was a few years before mine - we both tried in vain to track down the people connected with the book I had. I tried again before I went to press, since I would have loved to have gotten permission to run some of the photos from it. I had no luck either, so I reproduced the patterns verbatim using illustrations. 

So that is the history of the term, at least here in the United States.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Chevaux said:


> WS - somewhat off topic but since you queried environment as a cause and you're from Canada, do you remember talk of blue cattle found in one particular area of Quebec? This was quite a few years ago now. The cattle, as I recall, were Holsteins that apparently had a very noticeable blue in their coat colour. I don't know if they still exist today. The general concensus was that the colour resulted from their diet of whatever was growing in that region at that time.


No, never even heard of it!
But the only connection Alberta has to Quebec is government and even that is strained... lol
I may have to hit Google!


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## roseann (Jan 29, 2013)

*Just Curious*

This horse has been on my local close for several months now. The guy is calling him a "rare" Appy, and not gelding him for that reason alone. I am no expert but that does not look like an Appy and it seems to not be a great candidate for being a stud either. Could this horse have the fungal issue as stated in other posts? More important should I try to politely tell this guy this "color" likely won't be passed to its offspring and get this poor horse gelded? It's really none of my business of course. There are other photos but they did not download so I will need to add them later.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

roseann, that does look fungal to me.


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## roseann (Jan 29, 2013)

Here are the other photos. I know it's strange but being a bit of a nerd I thought it was way cool to see this ad after reading this thread. When I saw it months ago I thought not an Appy and forgot it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It looks fungal to me too - and though I'm no expert on the breed and he is in his winter woollies he really doesnt look like a horse you'd want to breed from anyway
This is always my huge concern when people try to breed for colour and throw everything else that matters more out of the window


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Hard to say if it's fungal (looks like it) but if his genetics are in question (does not look Appy) I would assume he is grade and that alone is reason for gelding, IMO.
Not to mention he's.... Fugly... LOL


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