# Strangles-like symptoms



## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Strangles test? Like bacterial culture? I've never heard of anyone doing such a thing.

Still sounds like Strangles to me. Pigeon fever opens up in the chest cavity, and I can't think of anything else that swells and bursts at the jawline, though I suppose other bacteria besides _S.-equi_ could potentially have a similar effect....


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Did they do a culture or did they just test for the presence of S. Equi (blood test for the antigens)? Strangles is caused by Streptococcus equi, but it has a very close cousin Streptococcus Zooepidemicus that also causes abscesses and "barn snots".


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## DakotaOutlaw (Sep 6, 2008)

Did a culture. I honestly believe this is another form of strep, like you said. I have never heard of, seen, or can find anything similar. Gutteral pouch infection is another possibility but from what I've been told, that is not contagious and would not explain all the other sick horses or having 2 with abscesses at the same time. Thank you guys.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

How are these horses being treated?


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## Lakotababii (Nov 28, 2010)

Keep in mind that the 2 ourbreaks do not necessarily have to be related. Could be the ones with the runny noses really did have colds from being exposed to a non quarantined horse, and the 2 who are displaying symptoms of strangles got the strangles from somewhere. Although it is suspicious to have them so close together, the 2 don't necessarily have to be related. 

Quarantine the sick ones.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Have a CBC blood test run. See if you have a high white count in the horses that have a fever. Your white count, I'll bet, is sky high.

Personally, I have had more outbreaks of Strep Zooepidemicus and the last time I had one it came from a farm that lost 3 of theirs that got sick. I got it from a visiting mare brought here to be bred. She was healthy and came from the Vet straight to us - with a clean Bill of Health. But, 1 week later she got sick with snots and abscesses. Seven of ours (out of 60) got sick. We got it contained to the field of mares she was next to. It turned out this guy's neighbor had lost 3 head to a really mean strain of Strep Zooepidemicus. 

It sounds like your strain is not a particularly bad strain -- as Strep goes. 

If it came back as negative for Strep Equi, then vaccinating the other for it will not keep them form getting it. Just try to contain it.


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## DakotaOutlaw (Sep 6, 2008)

The problem with the theory that the two outbreaks are not related is that there have been no new horses on the property and no horses have left the property since the new ones came in 13 weeks ago. The general concensus on all the forums is that this is another strain of strep, maybe the s. zooepidimicus. 
If sooooo... it's still strangles, still contagious, same thing, different enemy, same treatment. No one has been able to come up with anything else except gutteral pouch infection which the vet says is not located where these abscesses are. He agrees they are definately the lymph nodes that are abscessed. 
bubba 13. If we have a horse with a fever and runny nose we give a full course of penicillin. Since these two horses were never seen with these symptoms before the abscesses were found, they have not received anything except some bute when they appear to be in distress/pain. Just keep the area clean, use compresses to help draw out the pus.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Penicillin is generally not recommended for treating Strangles, nor any kind of antibiotics, at least until the abscess has burst. Antibiotics can delay and prolong the course of the disease. Supportive care with, yes, bute for stiffness, fever, and inflammation, is the preferred way to go, unless the horse's life is in immediate danger. Did the vet give his rational for starting the course of penicillin?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I am surprised your Vet wants you to give Penicillin. Giving it for a few days can cause abscesses to go internal and cause a condition called '******* Strangles'. Strep Equi and Strep Z. can both go internally. 

Once you have a horse get sick enough that you have to give it antibiotics to save it, you have to continue daily Penicillin injections until the White blood count drops back to normal. I have saved some nearly dead Strangles cases with daily Penicillin injections that I gave for more than a month -- never missing a single day.

If I have a horse get very sick with a particularly bad strain of Strangles, I will start Penicillin. That way, you do not get damage to a horse's flappers (roarers) and other permanent disabilities. Most horses that are 'wind-broke' got that way as a complication from Strangles.

I would just about bet the farm that an actual culture of an abscess taken from a closed abscess will yield a strep bacteria. 

For the next 2 or 3 months, you should very carefully monitor all of these horses that have been sick. Both kinds of Strep infections are bad to re-occur in a disease called Pupura Hemoragica. It usually first presents itself with severely swollen legs and head and throat. I have seen horses with heads so swollen that you could not fit a halter on them and their legs so swollen that they broke open and 'weeped' because the skin split and could not stretch far enough. The other big symptom is purple 'hemorrhage' spots on the horse's gums and lips. It gets its name from these hemorrhages. 

I have seen as many horses die from Purpura Hemaragica than I have seen die from Strangles. A horse can also get this complication for the Strangles vaccinations. It is one reason I do not give Strangles Vaccinations to my horses except under special circumstances.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I just so happen to have pictures!


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## princess warrior (Dec 28, 2009)

Well, this is interesting, my vet was out yesterday for one of our horses who has a swelling in the same place, but has not burst yet, he started him on bute and will take cells if there is no change or it gets worse. It is really worrying!


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## DakotaOutlaw (Sep 6, 2008)

Princess, all I can say is quarantine now. I take care of the abscessed ones last so I can shower change when I'm done with them. 

We originally started the penicillin on the horses that had high fevers and runny noses (not pus, just snotty) before we knew what we were dealing with. None of them had abscesses. Everyone started on penicillin is given a full 10 day course of it. Would never start penicillin and not carry through with it. And would never give antibiotics to an abscessed horse unless it was a last result. So far all of the ones treated immediatly upon symptoms, going back 14 weeks now, have cleared up and had no other symptoms whatsoever. The ones that developed abscesses never had any other symptoms that were seen. I was out of town for 2 weeks and don't know if the early symptoms were "overlooked" by the owners or if they truly did not have any early symptoms. 

Cherie and Bubba, they say you learn something new everyday. Have never seen pupura hemoragica before. Thank you for the heads up.


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## princess warrior (Dec 28, 2009)

Thankyou for all the information, Sky is now separated from the others, it is day 4 for bute and no change, so I guess we will take the next step and get the vet back out. So far his temp is in the normal range but have still to take it today. I'm pretty worried.


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## FLACKA (Sep 18, 2011)

Im getting ready to vaccinate a rescue horse that I just got. So, could yu tell me what special conditions you are talking about?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I would change Vets and I would NOT give Bute to any horse with possible Strangles. I absolutely would not use any Vet that gave me the advise that yours gave you. He is making the situation worse and putting your horses' lives in danger. If you have internal abscesses, 10 days may not be enough and Bute will mask that problem.

I had a Vet give me the same advise in 1985 when I took over a barn with several strangles cases already in place. The owner's Vet told me to stop the Penicillin on one horse that had completed a 10 days course. [They said he had been VERY sick when they started him on the antibiotics.] The horse was dead in about 30 hours from an abscess that broke on the outside of one lung and had a huge abscess on a kidney that would have also broken if he had not died first (yes, I posted him myself). I have not had one die since and have gone through several very serious outbreaks of really nasty strains of Strep E and Strep Z.

Bute, as an anti-inflammatory, delays the maturing and breaking of abscesses and and masks symptoms that I consider very important to monitor, like a horse's temperature and over-all feeling and appetite. These are very important symptoms that help one monitor the horse's 'actual' condition and you should never do anything to slow down the breaking and draining of the abscesses unless you are prepared to give the Penicillin for a very long time, until ALL symptoms (including a high white cell blood count) have disappeared. I monitor temperature 2X a day on any horse with suspected Strangles. Giving Bute makes that completely useless.


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## princess warrior (Dec 28, 2009)

OK, So as I am understanding more, we are going about things the wrong way. What should my next step be, also one of our other mares had a really snotty nose yesteday and was just miserable, she is usually a sweety. How do I know if I really have a problem or not?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I am not a Vet and I don't play one on TV --- But if she were mine, I would do nothing but keep her separate from horses that have not been exposed. [That would include quarantining the horses she has been next to or in with.] I would monitor her temperature and watch for abscesses that were forming. I would not start her on antibiotics or Bute and would just 'wait and see'. If you want to know for sure what you have, a simple CBC will show an astronomical white count with any Strep infection. Nasal swabs can help, but we just take the blood sample to the Vet or the local hospital and go by the white count.

If her temperature gets up to 104 or 105, I would make the decision of whether to wait it out or to start on antibiotics. I would try to wait it out unless the horse was not eating or drinking anything and is very depressed and standing in a corner. I would also wait it out if there were abscess that were 'pointing' and about to break. If those abscesses were NOT on the throat area but were between the jaw bones, I would lance them or call a Vet out to do that and see if that helps the horse's condition. 

If the temperature stayed high and horse got more depressed, I would start Penicillin. Once I start Penicillin, I give 3cc per 100# body weight first two days and then continue at 2cc per 100# every single day thereafter. The temperature should go back to nearly normal in a day or two because Penn is so effective against the Strep organisms. The danger is stopping too soon. If you have internal abscesses, it can take over a month for them to completely disappear. Quitting too soon makes them 'blow up' and rupture, usually killing the horse.

The safest way to quit giving antibiotics is to take a blood sample in and get a CBC. If that is very complicated, you can stop the Penn and take the horse's temperature every 8 - 12 hours. It will start climbing back up within a few hours of the time of the first shot that was missed. If it does, go back on Penn for at least another week or two before you try to stop again. The longest time I have ever had to give Penn was almost 2 months. If there were internal abscesses, it routinely takes at least a month of shots.

When you have to give Penn shots for an extended period of time, you have to rotate shot sights and be very careful that you are not in a blood vessel or hematoma (by always drawing back on the syringe) and you obviously have to have the horse very well mannered and have to be very skilled giving the shots. I have never had any problems with extended shot times, but I'm very good at both mannering horses and giving shots.

Another thing you should know is that some horses get better (by all appearances and by a normal white count) and can still be shedding the Strep organism and the disease to healthy horses. They are called inapparant carriers. Some horses have been know to spread Step E for 2 or 3 months and never been sick themselves or been over being sick that long. They do usually have it show up on a nasal swab.


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