# Training a stubborn horse to wetern rein



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

There is no ASAP, there is only right!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

AprilLover123 said:


> So my naghbors have Fiojd and she only engish reins which would be tolaly fine but I want to start showing with her in western pleaser and you have to western rein so my question is how do I get her to western rein ASAP?


Are you using the terms "English rein" to mean using two hands on the reins and "Western rein" to mean using one hand on the reins?

The way I teach riders how to influence a horse to turn is not dependent on whether a rider is riding with one hand or two. It does work best, however, is the rider is sitting relaxed and balanced and is following the movements of his horse so that the horse is relaxed as well. I compare this method of turning to walking with a friend with your arm around her shoulder. If you are both relaxed, when you turn, she turns with you without even thinking about it.

To do this with a horse, I bring my outside leg back only slightly while keeping the heel down. I keep my inside leg against the horse in its normal position. Both legs are merely wrapped around the horse due to the effect of gravity; there is no squeezing. The outside leg is positioned to discourage the horse from swinging its rear outward in the turn. The inside leg provides to horse something to bend its body around.

Then, I simply rotate -- I don't lean -- my whole upper body as a unit in the direction of the turn. I imagine a circle painted on the ground and look about one sixth of the circumference ahead with the eyes in my head and imaginary eyes in my chest. The rider's hand or hands simply move because they follow the motion of the rider's shoulders. 

Many subtle things happen when a rider signals a turn in this fashion and almost every horse responds by turning in the direction the rider is looking. An exception may be a horse that is tense and has been accustomed to being pulled into the turn. If that happens, I have additional things to try until the horse realizes what it is expected to do.

Try this method and see if it works for you. If not, let me know and I'll provide additional information.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

TXhorseman, that method doesn't work at all well with a horse who feels like going somewhere else. Nor is there really anything that would make it so. After all, it would be pretty hard to turn and look around anywhere, let alone look behind you, if the horse followed your body all the time.

Maybe I'm the only one whose girl is inclined to say, "You go to the ballgame if you want, but I'M going shopping!"

When my horse feels like going home instead of out into the desert, having an 'arm around her shoulders' won't win me much.

It sometimes seems like I must have the most stubborn, opinionated mare in the history of horses! Do you know how many times I've read that bits aren't used for brakes? Really? Maybe not when the horse feels like stopping, but folks haven't been putting bits in horses' mouths for thousands of years just to 'communicate'. Am I the only one who really has used a pulley rein stop, with a LOT of force on the bit, to stop a horse? Am I the only one who has ever used a curb bit because curb MEANS "restrain"?

If training is building a habit of obedience, then in time training CAN get the horse to turn with leg only, or to stop with seat...but am I really the only one who has ever had to yank a horse's head left or right to get a horse to do so immediately? Where do people buy these perfectly broke horses? Because in truth, I've never been on the back of a horse who would consistently turn off of leg cues. Every horse I've ever been on considered them at most "advice", not "commands". The lesson horses I've been on don't do it, and neither have any of the ranch horses I've been on in my life! Once in a while, yes, but consistently? Trooper came here as an experienced ranch horse with probably thousands of hours of saddle time, and he didn't know what leg cues were...maybe because he was a sheep ranch horse. :?

But am I really the only one whose horse has said, "I have 4 feet on the ground and you have zero, so just who in the heck do you think you are?"

Anyways...in the world where I live, direct reining is how most horses start off - plow reining. If you want to teach neck reining, this is fairly good advice:






Here is a tip that works well with Mia: If you hold leather split reins like this










then moving your hand left or right drags the rein up the outside shoulder, making a very clear cue for the horse to understand. I find the rope rein I typically use just doesn't provide a definite enough cue for her to consistently realize and accept it. Leather works much better, and the arrangement above seems like it give a very obvious, unmistakable cue.

Sorry for the rant, but the idea that horses automatically follow seat cues strikes me as strange. They sure don't in the world I live in! They can be TAUGHT seat cues, but someone has to teach it to them first! And if a horse doesn't neck rein, it isn't likely to turn well purely off of seat.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> TXhorseman, that method doesn't work at all well with a horse who feels like going somewhere else. Nor is there really anything that would make it so. After all, it would be pretty hard to turn and look around anywhere, let alone look behind you, if the horse followed your body all the time.


You're correct in saying the method I describe will not "make" a horse turn. There is a big difference between making a horse do something and influencing him to do it. I've found that horses prefer to be influenced or asked rather than being made to do it. I suppose this is similar to my experience when working in army intelligence. My superiors would say something like, "Would you get me the file on....?" rather than commanding: "Get me that file on..." Of course, I would have done it either way, but I felt better responding to the polite request. I've found that horses do also.

There are instances, of course, when a horse does not respond well. In such a case, I would use other methods to get the response I want just as I am sure my superior officers would have used other methods if I had refused to respond to their requests.

Horses also pick up the difference in various situations. When I am on a trail ride, I can easily look around and enjoy the scenery without the horse turning in that direction. If I want the horse to turn, however, it will. It is not only the looking that produces the response.

Think of how horses guide one another. Often, it is hard to tell how this is done. It may be a certain look, at tilt of the ear, or something even more subtle. At other times, however, the horse may lunge towards or even bite at the same horse to get it to move.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

The video linked by bsms illustrates one of the methods I might use to help a horse understand what I wanted if it did not respond to my more subtle cues. I would alter the use of the pulling rein slightly, however. Rather than pulling the horse through the turn, I would release the pressure of the pulling rein as soon as the horse began to turn. That way, I could repeat the process as necessary rather than simply pulling harder.

I also don't care much for the idea of pulling backward on the inside rein to tell the horse to turn. I liken this to steering a bulldozer where pulling backward on the right lever stops or reverses the right track so the bulldozer turns right, maybe even swinging its rear to the left. While a horse must take shorter steps with its inside legs when turning, I don't want it to slow its motion. If I do anything consciously with the inside rein other than taking it away from the horse, I might squeeze and release the fingers of the hand like trying to squeeze just one or two drops of water out of a wet sponge. Again, the idea is to influence the horse without giving the horse anything to resist against.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

TXhorseman said:


> ...I've found that horses prefer to be influenced or asked rather than being made to do it...
> 
> ...Think of how horses guide one another. Often, it is hard to tell how this is done...however, the horse may lunge towards or even bite at the same horse to get it to move.


My experience, little as it is, differs. In the military, when a higher up "asks" for something, it already is an order.

In a somewhat similar manner, it is good to be polite with a horse...but the horses also want the clarity of knowing exactly what the rules are and what they must do. I was taught to turn using "Seat, leg, reins (if needed)". Depending on the degree of turn needed and how tight and fast it needs to be, we might skip to reins because reins will be needed. It is still possible to be polite about it and ask with an opening rein instead of a yank, but the horse needs to know what you want.

I get frustrated when I read threads about how reins aren't used for turns and bits aren't used for stopping. That can be true if the horse is willing, trained, the rider rides him that way, and what is being asked isn't very demanding. But some horses, like my mare, are highly opinionated. If someone asks or suggests, she will feel free to say no. If she decides she is racing anther horse, then stopping her will require some genuine force. Not because she doesn't know better, but because she wants to win and isn't very happy about a rider who interferes with her desires.

For turns, I almost never pull back on a rein. If I do, it is the equivalent of cussing at my horse. Other horses are trained to respond to pulling back on a side. There aren't any magic set of cues that work. They all depend on how the horse was trained. I know people whose horse is used to having a pinkie finger put on one rein and bumped about 1/4 inch for a turn. It works great for them and is light on the horse. Mine works best if you move one hand to the right and slightly forward for a right turn. The same and slightly back for a tight turn. That works well with the curb bits I prefer.

My biggest problems getting her to neck rein have been A) getting a distinct enough cue so she recognizes it and B) convincing her I really mean it. I usually ride with a 10' yacht rope rein, and it just doesn't give her a strong enough cue to move off of. She needs leather reins. She'll do OK with a leather roper rein, and neck reins well with split reins hung on both sides - the loose end moving across her shoulder is easy for her to feel and very distinct.

Convincing her I mean it? I'm not sure that will ever happen. She is not a very submissive horse. She can know full well what I want and still wait until I insist before she will do it. But then, that is part of why I like her...:?


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## dernhelm1984 (Dec 19, 2013)

I taught my 13 year old TWH to neck rein by just sort of slowly combining direct reining into neck reining. Although I had taught him basic leg cues by then and used them lightly to reinforce direction, I would **think that this could be learned by a horse who didn't know anything about leg pressure or the rider's body position cues etc. Said horse would just have to know how to direct rein at least. 

All I did was start off using two hands as usual. When I wanted to turn, I would lift whichever rein I was using to direct his head into the turn and put it up against his neck to get used to feeling the rein there (I would really exaggerate the position of where I put the rein against his neck. It would be much farther up on his neck than where it would be on horses used to neck reining already. I wanted him to really feel it there).

I did this very slowly and gently and continued to direct rein as usual with that direct turning rein up on his neck. He got used to that fairly quickly. 

Then I began to loosen the other rein a bit while keeping the turning rein up on his neck without much pressure on it. Still used two hands at this point - basically direct reining still except I was holding the rein controlling his nose much farther up on his neck than someone would in a correct direct reining position would and keeping the other rein a tiny bit looser.

After he was comfortable with the changes in position, I began to really transition to neck reining. Still using two hands, I would put some pressure on that rein I was holding far up on his neck. Then at the same time I would take the other rein and, keeping it completely off of his neck, and give him a small, gentle bump to turn his nose in that direction. In the beginning I would have to give a bit more forceful bumps for him to move that nose (always start very gently and if it doesn't get through to him, slowly increase the power of your bumping until he moves his head even a hair in that direction. Then release all pressure from both reins and praise).

This took some practice for him to completely understand that he was being asked to turn in the direction of the loose rein that he was receiving a gentle nose bump from as opposed to the one laying up high on his neck with pressure being added.

Again, I would immediately release ALL pressure on *both* reins if he so much as gave his head half an inch into the "bumping rein" and praise him. 

As he began to understand that he was supposed to move away from the pressure on the rein in the middle of his neck and towards the loose rein giving him the nose bumps, I completely dropped the nose bumps altogether and began to hold the reins in one hand. I would still really exaggerate my hand position and keep that rein I put pressure on to turn much farther up on his neck than I would if I were riding a horse who knew neck reining 110% well. And if he needed help remembering to turn away from the pressure on his neck, I would just reach down to the other rein with my other hand and give him a soft nose bump to remind him.

After a week of practice or so, my horse got used to neck reining (I know this would vary per horse). I began to take my hand from being fairly high up on his neck until it was in the usual neck reining position.

Anyway, sorry for the long description. I am not great at being terse. D: That's how I taught my guy. Granted he was already an older, more experienced, usually calm guy... I am going to try this method again to teach my five year old after he's mastered more leg and body cues and his various turning etc. while being direct reined. 

Good luck to you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Correct 'neck' reining comes from the body rather the rein and by the time a horse is really ready to neck rein, many things need to be established.

The first basic thing is that your horse needs to be ready to influence. If you're on a horse who is barn sour, easily distracted, hot, etc, the horse and you will be focused on those things and learn new concepts very slowly. 

Your horse should be fairly darn broke through their body. Can you move your horses shoulders, ribs, and hindquarters independently? How broke is your horse through their face? Are they soft and willing to follow a feel? Does your horse have a nice, correct stop? As moving up to neck reining is usually followed by moving up to a curb, your horse needs to be prepared to respond to those subtle signals a curb bit will give. 

If your horse is ready, neck reining is so simple that it's silly. 

The neck rein is going to be the very first thing you ask with. You aren't going to go high up on your horses neck, or way out to the side for this. All that's going to do is put you in an improper position and unbalance your horse at the least. At the worst, you'll end up pulling o the side you're trying to neck rein on because your rein gets too tight. In the beginning you'll be two handing this a lot, so be ready, don't neck rein with the same hand that will be direct reining if you need to. Use the opposite hand to ask, and that same hand to follow through with that cue. Now, lots of people neck rein, then direct rein, I follow the neck rein with my legs. I'll pick up my hand slightly and just go across my horses neck, add my outside leg and just press with my calf, then i'll take my inside rein and guide my horse. 

The reason for this is pretty simple, how many times have you seen a horse blow through a riders request to neck rein and end up having to be direct reined anyway? Around here, it's pretty darn common and it's not a horse problem. Riders seem to have a difficult time spacing their cues apart, so by adding in the step that you use your legs, it gives that horse a moment to do the right thing. If you apply your cues at the same time or in the wrong order (direct rein first), the horse won't learn. You must use the cue that you eventually want your horse to respond to first. 

When you first start neck reining, it's just like teaching steering all over again. It doesn't matter so much where the horse is going. What I mean is, don't expect to set up some cones and do a pattern or something. You'll be rewarding the slightest try for a while. As soon as your horse turns, leave them alone. After your horse knows HOW to steer, you can use it to go where you want. 

Once your horse is neck reining pretty consistently, you can move up to a mild curb to make your cues even more subtle. Don't go to a solid bit or one with long shanks, as you may still need to make some corrections.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> My experience, little as it is, differs. In the military, when a higher up "asks" for something, it already is an order.
> 
> In a somewhat similar manner, it is good to be polite with a horse...but the horses also want the clarity of knowing exactly what the rules are and what they must do. I was taught to turn using "Seat, leg, reins (if needed)". Depending on the degree of turn needed and how tight and fast it needs to be, we might skip to reins because reins will be needed. It is still possible to be polite about it and ask with an opening rein instead of a yank, but the horse needs to know what you want.
> 
> ...


While bits are useful for stopping, I use them a bit differently than most riders. Rather than pulling back on the reins, I stop the forward progress of my hands in relationship to the ground and let the horse put the pressure on the bit if it chooses to continue forward. The horse, then, has the choice of how much the pressure increases before it stops. It can stop at the slightest amount of pressure, and I will not increase it. It may continue to increase the pressure if it chooses, and I will just keep my hands still – in relation to the ground, not in relation to the horse’s head – until the horse chooses to stop. However, if the horse continues to apply what I consider excessive pressure on subsequent occasions, I might try alternative methods.

We probably wouldn’t want a horse to turn every time it feels a rein on its neck any more than we would want a horse to turn any time we look in a direction other than forward. Whether we realize it or not, we are usually giving other cues as well such as applying a little outside leg pressure or relieving inside leg pressure or shifting our balance. It might be good to realize this, but emphasizing these things can have unexpected results.

Aside from showing, it is useful to realize that a horse should be able to turn with one hand no matter what type of saddle the rider is using. Most cavalry riders needed to be able to control two sets of reins and two bits with one hand so their other hand was free to use a lance or saber. This included the US cavalry until the time of the Civil War when the double bit was abandoned and more severe curb bits were employed by riders who received much more limited training than their predecessors. In addition, the American Indian and Japanese Samurai are examples of riders who sometimes rode without reins in order to load arrows and shoot them from their bows while on horseback.

Bill Dorrance is an example of a cowboy who sought better ways to get a horse to respond. He noticed that horses seemed to respond to some riders better than others and he sought to learn why. He spent his lifetime learning how to improve man’s relationship with the horse. His story and philosophy are documented in “True Horsemanship Through Feel” written by Leslie Desmond who tried to stay true to Bill’s way of expressing himself. This is sometimes hard to understand as illustrated by Buck Brannaman who wrote an introduction to the book. Buck was having trouble turning the front end of a particular horse so he called Bill for advice. Bill started talking about working the horse’s hindquarters as if he had never heard what Buck said. Buck thought Bill had gone senile and found a polite way to end the conversation. It wasn’t until later that Buck realized how the two issues were related. 

Bill Dorrance and his brother Tom are probably less well know than some of the men they influenced who became well known clinicians. These include Ray Hunt as well as Buck Brannaman.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

TXhorseman said:


> While bits are useful for stopping, I use them a bit differently than most riders. Rather than pulling back on the reins, I stop the forward progress of my hands in relationship to the ground and let the horse put the pressure on the bit if it chooses to continue forward. The horse, then, has the choice of how much the pressure increases before it stops. It can stop at the slightest amount of pressure, and I will not increase it. It may continue to increase the pressure if it chooses, and I will just keep my hands still – in relation to the ground, not in relation to the horse’s head – until the horse chooses to stop. However, if the horse continues to apply what I consider excessive pressure on subsequent occasions, I might try alternative methods...


Can you rephrase this? If the horse is moving, then how do you "stop the forward progress of my hands in relationship to the ground "? How do you "keep my hands still – in relation to the ground, not in relation to the horse’s head – until the horse chooses to stop"?

If the horse is moving, then your hands are always moving in relation to the ground.

I agree the horse gets to choose the level of pressure he stops at. That is the beauty of a curb bit - there is no pressure in the mouth until the curb strap tightens. So as long as the rider pulls back smoothly, the horse always has the choice of stopping while the shanks are rotating or waiting until pressure is applied. If you give a horse a consistent, gradual increase in pressure that the horse can respond to, most horses will figure out they might as well respond with less pressure, and thus become softer. The key is to always give the same progression in cues and pressure so the horse can figure it out and choose to yield at a softer pressure.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> Can you rephrase this? If the horse is moving, then how do you "stop the forward progress of my hands in relationship to the ground "? How do you "keep my hands still – in relation to the ground, not in relation to the horse’s head – until the horse chooses to stop"?
> 
> If the horse is moving, then your hands are always moving in relation to the ground.
> 
> I agree the horse gets to choose the level of pressure he stops at. That is the beauty of a curb bit - there is no pressure in the mouth until the curb strap tightens. So as long as the rider pulls back smoothly, the horse always has the choice of stopping while the shanks are rotating or waiting until pressure is applied. If you give a horse a consistent, gradual increase in pressure that the horse can respond to, most horses will figure out they might as well respond with less pressure, and thus become softer. The key is to always give the same progression in cues and pressure so the horse can figure it out and choose to yield at a softer pressure.


First, I agree that if only one rider rides a horse and if that rider can consistently increase rein pressure gradually, the rider can just as easily teach a horse to stop as when using the method I promote. My method, however, should make it easier for any rider using any bit.

The concept of stopping one's hands in relation to the ground is often confusing to riders so I will try explain it a bit more. 

If I pull on the reins, my hands come closer to my body whether I am stopped or moving. If I am stopped and I leave my hands where they are, both my hands and body stay the same distance apart. If I leave my hands where they are in relationship to the ground and the horse moves forward, my body will move towards my hands. If I am riding and I stop the forward movement of my hands, the horse will still bring my body towards my hands. 

The first, third, and fourth scenarios may look the same to someone who is looking only at me and the horse, because my hands and body are coming closer together. Still, only in the first scenario am I pulling backward on the reins. In the third and fourth scenario, the horse is pulling forward on the reins.

To help riders understand this better, I tell them to pick out a fence post past which the horse will be traveling. I tell them to imagine an invisible wall sticking out from that fence post. I further tell them than this invisible wall is magic. The horse can pass through but the rider can't. As the horse reaches the wall, it continues onward. When the rider's hands reach the wall, they can proceed no further. However, since the horse can still move forward, the rider is sitting on the horse, and the rider's body has not yet reached the wall, the rider's body can still continue forward coming closer to his hands.

To the rider, things may at first feel the same since the effort of his hands and arms feel similar. Still, there is a difference between pulling and resisting a pull. 

Horses seem better at distinguishing this difference. If they are being pulled upon, they may stop or they may resist by trying to outpull the one pulling. They know from experience when tied, however, that if they are doing the pulling, stopping will cause the pressure to stop increasing.

If a horse is tied and feels pressure when it tries to move away it often learns to stop when it first feels the pressure. In contrast, a horse never knows for sure whether someone pulling on him will stop pulling if he stops. If it is always the same rider and the rider always stops pulling immediately, the horse should learn this quickly. But if various riders pull on the horse and some stop pulling while others do not, how is the horse to learn that his stopping will make the pressure stop?

By using the method of simply stopping the forward motion of his hands, the rider avoids two common mistakes. Firstly, he will not inadvertently jerk on the reins causing sudden pressure; the pressure on the reins will only increase do to the speed the horse is moving. Secondly, the rider will never use more pressure than necessary.

I hope this explanation makes the concept more clear. 

Of course, in all cases, the rider should relieve any pressure on the reins when the horse stops whether the rider or the horse caused the pressure.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

TXhorseman said:


> ...If I pull on the reins, my hands come closer to my body whether I am stopped or moving. If I am stopped and I leave my hands where they are, both my hands and body stay the same distance apart. If I leave my hands where they are in relationship to the ground and the horse moves forward, my body will move towards my hands. If I am riding and I stop the forward movement of my hands, the horse will still bring my body towards my hands.
> 
> The first, third, and fourth scenarios may look the same to someone who is looking only at me and the horse, because my hands and body are coming closer together. Still, only in the first scenario am I pulling backward on the reins. In the third and fourth scenario, the horse is pulling forward on the reins...
> 
> ...


Clearer yes, and I thank you for the explanation. However, I find it very implausible. A horse moving 3 mph covers 4.4 feet per second. So if the horse is walking at a modest pace, and I stop the forward movement of my hands in relation to the ground, the reins would be pulled back 4.4 feet during the next second. Even a horse moseying along at 2 mph covers 176 feet per minute, and thus almost 3 feet/second.

When I pull back on both reins riding with one hand and a curb bit, I rotate my wrist about 30 deg, bring the rein ends about 2 inches closer to me over about a half second. If the horse still doesn't slow or stop, I'll continue to remove slack from the reins by pulling my hand back slightly, rotating the shanks far enough to engage the curb strap and start applying pressure.

If I'm riding in a snaffle and using two hands, I put my pinkie on top of the rein and pull back with my pinkie, and then follow with my hand - but while a snaffle doesn't give the warning a curb does, it is still pinkie pressure.

If the horse is refusing to stop, period, I may build up to a lot of pressure. How much? Hard to say. In an arena, when little Cowboy was refusing to stop, we got up to this much pressure:










We did about 5 laps at that pressure, then he decided to slow. I released, he sped up, and we repeated until he didn't speed up after the release. After about 10 minutes he was stopping nicely. FWIW, Cowboy is our most experienced horse but this was his first day living with me. He has not repeated this since that first day. If I had to do it over again, I would do it differently...I'm older and a little wiser, I hope. But it worked, and was not unfair. He is an experienced horse with barrel racing, ranches and lessons in his background.

With a bolting horse, I'll go to a pulley rein stop because a horse galloping mindlessly can kill us both. I consider a genuinely bolting horse a danger to both of our lives. I read a section of George Morris's book today, and he said he considered a bolter reason to use a double twisted wire bit! :shock: I don't, but I guess I'm not the only one who thinks of it as an emergency, and of a bit as a way of stopping one.

But halt my hands in relation to the ground? That might be nice mental imagery, and it may help some folks to think about giving the horse an option, but the literal minded fellow in me who used to spend time talking to engineers has some problems with it.

This is how I prefer to ride with a snaffle, although I've used a pulley rein stop to brutally slow Mia down during a bolt:










That doesn't mean riders should not be aware of what you talked about in your first post - that you can turn and slow a horse some of the times with simple seat and relaxation. Once they know this, they can understand why bits are for fingers, not hands and certainly not arms - except for emergencies.

The first time my daughter cantered was on Cowboy, and she had simply squeezed too tight without meaning to. She then got scared. I shouted across the arena, "Spread your knees and lean back a little". After another half lap, she did...and Cowboy slowed to a walk. That proved an important lesson for her, and she now regularly practices riding by dropping the reins on the horn and riding without them for a while - which works for Trooper, although I would not recommend it for either Cowboy or Mia.

Back on topic: Some more videos:











I agree with the second video that you give the subtle cue before the obvious one. It may take a horse 300 or 400 times before it notices the subtle cue comes before the obvious one, but once he does....it becomes his choice to obey the subtle one first. Most horses like to obey at the low pressure, subtle cue.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

I'm still curious as to what difference the OP meant between English and western. 

I don't ride English but I know that most are ridden with contact. Some horses that are only rode with contact do have issues being rode with slack reins. 

I don't know if with English that you would use direct reining or neck reining. Either way, a horse should know how to direct rein whether western or English. That should be basic for any, even somewhat trained, horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> Clearer yes, and I thank you for the explanation. However, I find it very implausible. A horse moving 3 mph covers 4.4 feet per second. So if the horse is walking at a modest pace, and I stop the forward movement of my hands in relation to the ground, the reins would be pulled back 4.4 feet during the next second. Even a horse moseying along at 2 mph covers 176 feet per minute, and thus almost 3 feet/second.


You're correct in pointing out that, strictly speaking, resisting hands may actually be moving forward. Descriptive images are not always totally accurate. Another example is bending a horse evenly on a circle. Since some parts of the spine can bend more than others and the spine also twists, this image isn't really accurate either. Still, both images can be useful. The one can help keep riders from jerking on the reins or pulling too strongly. The other helps keep riders from simply bending a horse's neck in a turn.

Realizing that a horse moving only two miles per hour covers about three fee in one second, you can see how quickly rein pressure can increase with a thousand pound horse pulling on them. If a rider pulls back on the reins at the same time, the pressure increases even more rapidly.

If a horse has been traveling in the same fashion for some time a little wake-up call can help prepare for the transition to a stop. Such a cue can be helpful before calling for any transition. When riding in a snaffle with minimal contact, I hold the reins with the thumb at the top of my hand. I can then simply squeeze and release my fingers to give this wake-up call. I tell others to think of squeezing only one or two drops of water out of a wet sponge.

I seldom use reins independently. Other parts of my body help the horse to understand what I am asking of him. They may also make it easier for the horse to respond.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

TXhorseman said:


> ... Descriptive images are not always totally accurate....
> 
> ...Realizing that a horse moving only two miles per hour covers about three fee in one second, you can see how quickly rein pressure can increase with a thousand pound horse pulling on them. If a rider pulls back on the reins at the same time, the pressure increases even more rapidly...


A lot of folks love Sally Swift's book Centered Riding. I hated it, mostly because I am too literally minded to find a lot of imagery helpful. In my defense, others sometimes have the same problem. This can lead to folks trying to do things a horse cannot do, such as round its back up into a saddle that bridges, or to assume the horse is really bending around an inside leg instead of adjusting its feet.

A rider pulling back on reins in relation to himself will pull them back far less and at a slower pace than a rider who tries to keep them stationary in relation to the ground. A decent horse who stops with pinkie pressure can teach that lesson in minutes. A rider who sees a horse stop and turn and behave on slack reins will soon realize a death grip is not required for most situations. The mantra drilled in to me of "_Seat, legs, reins (if needed)_" is simple enough and progressive enough to work for someone like me.

It seems to me a horse who stops and turns well on slack reins - which can be done with a snaffle too - would be invaluable for teaching a young rider respect for the mouth and how cues are interconnected! I dislike the bitless bridle craze, but in many ways I'm glad I learned to ride using a sidepull halter.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

bsms said:


> A lot of folks love Sally Swift's book Centered Riding. I hated it, mostly because I am too literally minded to find a lot of imagery helpful. In my defense, others sometimes have the same problem. This can lead to folks trying to do things a horse cannot do, such as round its back up into a saddle that bridges, or to assume the horse is really bending around an inside leg instead of adjusting its feet.
> 
> A rider pulling back on reins in relation to himself will pull them back far less and at a slower pace than a rider who tries to keep them stationary in relation to the ground. A decent horse who stops with pinkie pressure can teach that lesson in minutes. A rider who sees a horse stop and turn and behave on slack reins will soon realize a death grip is not required for most situations. The mantra drilled in to me of "_Seat, legs, reins (if needed)_" is simple enough and progressive enough to work for someone like me.
> 
> It seems to me a horse who stops and turns well on slack reins - which can be done with a snaffle too - would be invaluable for teaching a young rider respect for the mouth and how cues are interconnected! I dislike the bitless bridle craze, but in many ways I'm glad I learned to ride using a sidepull halter.


I think our initial problem in communicating comes from viewing the situation from different perspectives. I get the impression that you consider that you are pulling your hands backward anytime your hands and body come closer together which would be true in this instance if you are looking from the perspective of your body being stationary on the horse's back. I, on the other hand, consider pulling backward from the initial point in relation to the surroundings. For example, pulling away from the invisible wall (the fence post) I mentioned in the opposite direction from the horse's movement.

Rather than thinking of either pulling back or stopping our hands in relation to the ground, we might simply consider the pressure that is being applied to the reins. We should agree that we normally want this pressure applied gradually and in a smooth manner. 

Considering that a horse may be moving forward at a quick pace, we may need to let our hands move forward also to keep the horse from applying the pressure too quickly. If we let our hands go forward at a slower pace than the horse is moving, the rein tension will still increase but at a slower rate than if we either stopped the forward progress of our hands or pulled backwards on the reins. Understand that in all three instances our hands and body would be coming closer together.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

TXhorseman said:


> ...Considering that a horse may be moving forward at a quick pace, we may need to let our hands move forward also to keep the horse from applying the pressure too quickly. If we let our hands go forward at a slower pace than the horse is moving, the rein tension will still increase but at a slower rate than if we either stopped the forward progress of our hands or pulled backwards on the reins. Understand that in all three instances our hands and body would be coming closer together.


Our hands are going to be going forward on ANY horse who is moving. I've never heard of someone moving the reins they are holding by 4.4 feet per second, and that would be at a walk! It really is not physically possible to do that without tearing the horse's head off.

I don't have any students, but a lifetime of flying jets taught me there is a huge difference between airspeed and groundspeed.

"_we may need to let our hands move forward also to keep the horse from applying the pressure too quickly_"

Philosophically, when I ask a horse to stop, I AM giving a cue. The horse is not applying the cue. I am. I am telling the horse to do something. That is OK. That is part of my role as a rider.

That cue should start as gentle as possible but have the option of being followed up with a stronger cue. With a strong willed horse, it might sometimes involve a fight - not because I want one, but because not all horses just give in and do what their rider wants.

"_There is a big difference between making a horse do something and influencing him to do it. I've found that horses prefer to be influenced or asked rather than being made to do it._"

For training, I want to create a habit of obedience. When a horse gets scared, I don't need a horse who is used to contemplating suggestions. If I want to be able to stop a horse from bolting, or have him turn where I think is best even when he thinks it is a bad idea, I need a habit of obedience so strong that he'll obey even if he doesn't want to obey.

If the horse is scared along a road, I need him to obey where I am telling him to put his feet even if he thinks getting into the road and running is a better idea. To do that when he is scared, I need to have ingrained habit patterns strong enough that the horse will do what *I* am saying even if *he* doesn't want it. I need to be able to short-circuit his brain and bypass what his brain wants. I need to be able to apply my brain to his muscle, and that requires a habit of obedience so strong that it will happen even when his brain stops functioning or wants to do something else.

That doesn't mean I don't give my horse options or choices about some things. They can ask to go slower or faster or show reluctance to go somewhere, but I need them to know my decision will be final. Anything else can kill us both.

However, if I give a progression of cues, the same progression, then the horse can choose what level of pressure to obey. Most will respond by obeying at a lower lever of pressure. That is how neck reining is taught - you can turn left because you feel the rein's weight doing this, or because I pull. Which do you prefer? It may take 10 times or 500, but most horses will eventually realize it is easier to obey the weight of the rein than insist on a pull.

The cue I use then gets softer, but my will is still supreme. This creates a soft, obedient horse. We can still have a conversation, but I remain the commanding officer. That is for my horse's safety as well as my own. It is important to say please and thank you, but it is even more important that the horse obey when things turn ugly. When riding, I cannot afford to be a 40% shareholder trying to "influence" the 60% shareholder.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

TXhorseman said:


> I think our initial problem in communicating comes from viewing the situation from different perspectives.


I think you are totally correct in that statement, your perspective come from years and years of training and riding, knowing what works and what doesn't practised over many many horses.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Golden Horse, it does not matter if you've never ridden a horse or ridden 10,000. If a horse is moving 4.4 feet per second (groundspeed) and the rider fixes his hand in relation to the ground (a groundspeed of 0), then the bit will be pulled back at 4.4 feet per second until the horse stops.

If someone has NEVER ridden a horse, they ought to still be able to see that moving your hands aft at 4.4 feet/sec represents a near physical impossibility. The difference between TXhorseman & I is the difference between mental imagery and physical, engineering-style reality.

TXhorseman is essentially telling his students to think of it as the horse running itself into the bit in order to soften their hands and prevent a yank back. If that mental imagery helps his students, fine. But physical reality remains - and too many supposedly experienced horsemen tie themselves in knots from not separating the mental imagery that helps them from the physical reality of what the horse and rider are doing.

If you had loop reins, and that loop caught on a stationary hook in the ground while cantering, the poor horse would be injured.

As for willing or unwilling obedience:

Pleasurable riding includes a give and take between rider and horse, at least for me. I'm sure it does for TXhorseman as well. However, how much one accepts willingness depends on the training level of the horse and the environment of the rider. For a well trained horse in an arena, a lot of 'willingness' can be accepted with injury to neither. Riding along a road with a spooky horse, willingness needs to take a backseat to maintaining safe control when trucks go by at 60 mph.

This is survival. If your horse is backing up to a drop it doesn't see and isn't interested in looking at, then taking control immediately is life or death for both of you. If the horse is running toward car traffic, then completely controlling that horse is critical. One does not suggest any more than you suggest a child not run into a busy street. You take whatever action is required.

Riding a trained horse in an arena - how many folks learn to ride - takes that out of the equation. When taking lessons, I never once was concerned my horse was going to kill me. When riding Mia in southern Arizona...well, she has scared the daylights out of me more than once.

This in part explains the difference in approach between a lot of ranch riding and arena riding. Contrary to a lot of NH BS, old time cowboys did not all abuse their horses. Many old time horse breakers fully understood the difference between what a horse could be trained to do (and how to do it) and what they were being paid to do in 3 lessons. The tack and riding style of an old time cowboy reflected the need to stay alive riding a marginally trained horse hundreds of miles from help.

Ideally, I want Mia to stop from my seat and turn from my leg alone. I don't value turning with just my seat because I'm not that consistent of a rider, but she can and often will stop from my seat. That is the ideal.

But Mia has a mind of her own. Get her running near another horse outside of an arena, and her competitive instinct takes over. There is no way she is going to stop from my seat in that situation. She probably will be too excited to turn from my leg in that situation. Her internal excitement creates emotional noise that drowns me out. For safety, I will need a means of 'shouting' loud enough to be heard over the background noise.

If the only horse I had ever ridden was Trooper, I could compliment myself on what a fine rider I am. Trooper will almost always stay cam and listen to his rider. I've seen him misbehave from fear or confusion, but I've never seen him say, "To hell with you, I"m doing it MY way!"

But Mia is a very different horse. When she gets excited, she may try to take control. She will then deliberately do something contrary to what her rider wants because she doesn't want it. It makes her a much more interesting horse, but it also makes her different.

I think George Morris qualifies as an experienced horseman. The fact that he believes a double twisted wire bit is appropriate for a horse who bolts - as Mia used to do all the time - suggests I'm not the only one who believes you sometimes need to do whatever is needed to take control. I had good results with a Billy Allen curb, and consider it far milder than a double twisted wire bit...but with some horses, you need to do what you need to do. 

I suspect TXhorseman would agree. 

After a lot of work, Mia is much better than she used to be and I ride her differently than I once did. I still use a Billy Allen curb. She understand it, and I think it is one of the mildest bits in existence for a horse who understands it. Properly used, it is milder than a sidepull halter.

Too many "experienced horsemen" seem to forget that not all riding is in an arena and not all horses are well trained. Many of us take what we get and work with it from there. I'm grateful I've had Mia as a teacher rather than Trooper. I'm also glad she has taught me things about horses in 6 years that many riders go 20 without learning - that she is the one with the feet on the ground, that she often needs someone to take control even tho her feet are on the ground, that influencing a horse is good for some things but totally inadequate for others. When you need to control what you cannot control, you are forced to learn about horses. That paradox is what forces one to grow as a rider and as a horseman.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

***whistles***TIME OUT please, TX and BSMS.:lol: Re-read the original post and you tell me what you think the OP is getting from your posts. Look at language use, spelling etc. Sorry, but you are so far over her head you are in space and she now has a glazed over expression on her face, sorry she asked what she thought was a simple question.:wink:

There is no easy quick fix. Period. Start, IMO, by making your horse very responsive to your leg and movements. I started this bareback in an enclosed area. I had a bridle on my horse, but no contact and used my legs, butt and LOOKING where I want to go to help get the horse there. As you use your outside leg, lay the rein on the horses neck. It can be a painful exercise, but both of you learn to listen better. It does work…but then I got impatient and sent him to a reining trainer. He now neck reins like a champ. :lol:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ That is why I tried to include some helpful videos. At least, they have helped me. I agree the conversation has strayed way past the OP's question and I apologize for it. Sorry!  I get carried away sometimes, and not always on a horse...


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

franknbeans said:


> ***whistles***TIME OUT please, TX and BSMS.:lol: Re-read the original post and you tell me what you think the OP is getting from your posts. Look at language use, spelling etc. Sorry, but you are so far over her head you are in space and she now has a glazed over expression on her face, sorry she asked what she thought was a simple question.:wink:


I apologize for allowing myself to drift from the original topic. I have learned that if I can be misunderstood, I will be misunderstood. Then, I often try to find a different way of explaining what I mean to clarify things. Sometimes, however, it is best to say nothing.


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