# Discussion of Hunt seat and forward seat



## hoopla

Two point and huntseat is what a rider does when they hang over the horse because they're not balanced nor have an independent seat. ;-)


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## maura

> Two point and huntseat is what a rider does when they hang over the horse because they're not balanced nor have an independent seat.


Um, no. 

I'm hoping this is sarcasm, and that I'm just unable to determine tone?

"hunt seat" and "forward seat" are interchangable terms, and describe a style of riding suitable for riding a horse cross country at speed over obstacles. That it's often done badly does not mean it's not a legitmate term. 

Two point is a balanced position with two points of contact with the saddle, meaning the rider's knees. Correct two point has the rider balanced over their stirrups, crotch over the center of the saddle/center of gravity of the horse, buttocks just barely off of the seat. Done correctly by an intermediate or higher rider, it should be completely independent, with the rider not taking any support from the reins or neck. Used by hunt seat riders, jumpers, eventers or anyone who wants to take weight off the horse's back but remain in balance. Constrasted with three-point where the rider sits even closer, crotch touching the saddle, but folded forward from the hip. Can also be called jump position or galloping position, and has a variation known as half-seat.


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## xxBarry Godden

Maura, presumably 'two point', is what Vladimir Littauer calls 'forward riding' ??

This style is what is promoted in Wales for trail riding across wales over uneven terrain.
We would also use it for trotting uphill on tarmac and also for trotting downhill over rough terrain.

Barry


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## Foxhunter

maura said:


> Um, no.
> 
> I'm hoping this is sarcasm, and that I'm just unable to determine tone?
> 
> "hunt seat" and "forward seat" are interchangable terms, and describe a style of riding suitable for riding a horse cross country at speed over obstacles. That it's often done badly does not mean it's not a legitmate term.


I agree with you in that it has a legitimate place in riding - especially when travelling longer distances at speed.

What really does make the hair on the back of my neck stand up is the way it is generally taught in the US with people being taught to get into two point and staying there throughout a round of jumping.
If it is you in the picture then you know that two point is valid between fences especially CC but unless you are sitting up going into and as the horse lands from a fence, especially CC, then you are very insecure.

Even jump jockeys, riding with a two point seat, will be sitting down going into a fence to drive the horse forward and be in a backward seat but slipping the reins, known as hitting the buckle, when they land.


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## xxBarry Godden

Vladimir Littauer was born a Russian and served in a classy Russian cavalry regiment loyal to the Czar. He fought the Germans thru WW1 but lost out during the revolution. He escaped to the US and became an AMerican citizen.

To earn a living he taught riding - especially by way of the Italian system developed by Capt Caprilli an Italian cavalry officer. Littauer's forward riding became *the* system for Americans who rode English. 
Eventually Littauer became the trainer of the post WW2 US International riding teams. He was very, very knowledgeable about how to ride a horse. Riding was his life. 
He wrote several books on how to ride in the 'Forward' style.

His system works but has lost some ground to the modern pseudo classical style of riding whereby every one sits bolt upright and firmly seated in the saddle - which isn't such a good idea when charging over Welsh bracken covered uneven hillsides pitted with rabbit holes and bogs

There is room in equitation for more than one system of riding a horse.


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## mildot

Barry Godden said:


> There is room in equitation for more than one system of riding a horse.


Truth

And in the course of a hack one may use several of them, transitioning seamlessly from one to another.


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## maura

Foxhunter, 

I have exhausted myself this weekend defending hunters and the American system of forward riding on this board; so I don't have the energy to respond your comments today, but I while respond later.


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## hoopla

Foxhunter said:


> I agree with you in that it has a legitimate place in riding - especially when travelling longer distances at speed.
> 
> What really does make the hair on the back of my neck stand up is the way it is generally taught in the US with people being taught to get into two point and staying there throughout a round of jumping.
> If it is you in the picture then you know that two point is valid between fences especially CC but unless you are sitting up going into and as the horse lands from a fence, especially CC, then you are very insecure.
> 
> Even jump jockeys, riding with a two point seat, will be sitting down going into a fence to drive the horse forward and be in a backward seat but slipping the reins, known as hitting the buckle, when they land.


Yep indeed. Half seat, jump seat and forward seat (Eng) and all based on the Caprilli style is well known but I struggle when I see photos on US forums labelled "two point" and "hunt seat". Just not seeing at all the required position to enable the horse to free the back and loins to get his back legs under him or to allow him to stretch his head and neck as he reaches out with front legs.

The freedom required to enable this and change balance quickly if required by taking weight off the back by rising from the saddle by placing weight through the knees and heels is just not what I personally see when folks talk "two point" and "hunt seat" and post photos. 

To me there should be a leaning of the upper body forward and maintaining balance over the heels with a good line through the body showing hips pushed back so there's as much weight behind the heels as in front so weight can easily shift forward and back to follow the horse's movement. 

Most often though photos show someone lying rigid over the top of the horse with their butt sticking up in the air in a very artificial manner suggesting severe constipation and often when jumping something just 2 feet high from real slow canter! 

Oh and yes... I was being sarcastic. I'm English. So of course I was being sarcastic. It's what we do best and right up there with irony.


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## mildot

hoopla said:


> To me there should be a leaning of the upper body forward and maintaining balance over the heels with a good line through the body showing hips pushed back so there's as much weight behind the heels as in front so weight can easily shift forward and back to follow the horse's movement.
> 
> Most often though photos show someone lying rigid over the top of the horse with their butt sticking up in the air in a very artificial manner suggesting severe constipation and often when jumping something just 2 feet high from real slow canter!


Good

Phillip Dutton










Mary King










Double Plus Ungood


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## maura

If I posted photos of American Olympic levels riders and compared them to a British Pony Clubber or amateur, I could make a similiar point, though it would be equally erroneous. 

Good riding is good riding, regardless of national origin, and bad riding is bad riding, regardless of national origin. 

Those photos prove nothing but the bias on the part of the person who selected the photos.


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## thesilverspear

I know, right. If you compared a photo of me riding with one of Carl Hester riding, you could say British dressage is much better and far more correct in every way than American dressage, but that would be plainly idiotic.


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## DuffyDuck

maura said:


> If I posted photos of American Olympic levels riders and compared them to a British Pony Clubber or amateur, I could make a similiar point, though it would be equally erroneous.
> 
> Good riding is good riding, regardless of national origin, and bad riding is bad riding, regardless of national origin.
> 
> Those photos prove nothing but the bias on the part of the person who selected the photos.


 likelikelikelikelikelikelike.


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## mildot

maura said:


> Those photos prove nothing but the bias on the part of the person who selected the photos.


Wrong. They prove the difference between correct and incorrect.

The names of the correct riders were added so that everyone knew who the examples were. Period. Their country of origin or nationality has nothing to do with anything. And since I am the one who made the post, only I know the intention with which it was made.


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## DuffyDuck

mildot said:


> Wrong. They prove the difference between correct and incorrect.
> 
> The names of the correct riders were added so that everyone knew who the examples were. Period. Their country of origin or nationality has nothing to do with anything. And since I am the one who made the post, only I know the intention with which it was made.


 
Perhaps clarifying the intention of the post would help disuade any assumptions- just for future reference.


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## busysmurf

mildot said:


> Wrong. They prove the difference between correct and incorrect.
> 
> The names of the correct riders were added so that everyone knew who the examples were. Period. Their country of origin or nationality has nothing to do with anything. And since I am the one who made the post, only I know the intention with which it was made.


 
Even I know the last 2 aren't correct. They're laying on the horses necks, and one of them could hit the upright thingys with their toes.

And I don't even like jumping:wink:


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## thesilverspear

mildot said:


> Wrong. They prove the difference between correct and incorrect.
> 
> The names of the correct riders were added so that everyone knew who the examples were. Period. Their country of origin or nationality has nothing to do with anything. And since I am the one who made the post, only I know the intention with which it was made.


Well, yes. But stating that Olympic riders have better equitation than your average amateur numpty with a horse is taken directly from the curriculum of the School for the Bleeding Obvious. 


Not that I'm slagging average amateur numpties. After all, I am one.


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## busysmurf

thesilverspear said:


> Well, yes. But stating that Olympic riders have better equitation than your average amateur numpty with a horse is taken directly from the curriculum of the School for the Bleeding Obvious.


"numpty" I like that one!! Can I use it? I wonder if my boss knows what it means:lol::twisted:


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## maura

I moved all the posts regarding hunt seat, forward seat and the differences in styles of riding into their own thread from the funny "languauge differences" thread as I thought it would be an useful, educational thread. 

Foxhunter PMed the following comments, and I asked permision to post them here. 

*Two Point!* 
There really is nothing to defend in the two point issue!

I am in my 60's and have been teaching riding since I was 15. The way I was taught and therefore teach, was to be safe and effective. I cannot see how anyone riding into a fence in two point, is using their seat to push the horse forward, nor, if in two point on landing, they are safe should the horse stumble.

Much has changed in the UK since I started. Back then very few children actually had their own ponies, we all learned to ride at a riding school where much of the influence was from the army.
This was just after WW2.
Gradually, in the 1960's more and more parents started buying ponies for their children and keeping them at the riding schools. Then they started keeping their ponies where they looked after them on their own.

This lead to several problems in that they were getting very little instruction with either care or riding. 
As time passes so these children started to teach and because of lack of solid foundation they could not see the problems they were setting up.

You see a lot of posts about legs and hands but very very little about seat and the seat is the most important basis for all riders.

I was taught to teach the sitting trot before the rising for the simple reason that once a rider learns the rising trot it is easier than learning the sitting. If a rider can do a good sitting trot then the seat is already becoming secure. 
A secure, balanced seat, leads to independent hands.

I am not against the two point, as I said in my last post, it is a vital tool but only if used in the correct manner. Being ahead of the horse's movement is leaving a rider open to more accidents because they are already half way to falling off. 
Yes, over the fence they need to go into two point but only over the fence, not going into it or on landing. 



There are many points made so far that I wish to respond to and comment on, but that may have to wait until this evening.


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## maura

I must, on pain of stealing more time from my employer, respond to one comment before this evening. 

I am appalled that anyone would blame Chris Reeve's accident on forward seat riding. Chris Reeve's horrible accident had three components: 1.) a fence with no ground line/false ground line. Since his accident, this is no longer considered an appropriate question for a Novice level course (or Training either.) and all fences have brush or filler added to make an appropriate ground line. 2.) Chris Reeve's size. He was 6'4" and close to 200 pounds, and he stuck the ground head first, at an angle. The force generated by his mass and the acceleratation, combined with the nearly 45 degree angle, crushed his cervical vertebra. 3.) When he came off his horse, his stick and arms got tangled up in the reins, and he could not throw out his hands or arms to break his fall. Again, he struck the ground head first, at considerable speed, as what rodeo cowboys call "a yard dart." Without this last detail, he might have sustained broken wrists or broken collarbones, not a severe spinal cord injury. 

You do not have to be approaching a fence in two point to midjudge a distance, or miscommunicate with the horse about the distance, and at speed, the result is often the same. 

How do know some of this stuff? I have seen tapes of the accident, multiple times. The accident occurred at Commonwealth Park, or the old Showday Farm in Culpeper, VA, one of my "home courses", we schooled and competed there often. I was not there the day Mr. Reeve was hurt, but was at both the previoius and following events there - they hosted two combining training events a year, Spring and Fall. I have actually jumped the fence where the wreck occurred, multiple times, on multiple horses, both schooling and in competition, and a bunch of students did as well. I have photos in my album taken on that course. 

Finally, I was a practicing EMT at the time. Mr. Reeve was transported by the Nightengale helicopter to UVA hospital, the closest Level 1 trauma center, and I heard several medical debriefs of the accident, the call and the transport.


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## Foxhunter

maura said:


> There are many points made so far that I wish to respond to and comment on, but that may have to wait until this evening.


One thing I dislike about the USA - they are way behind the UK - I am off to bed!


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## bsms

maura said:


> ...Being ahead of the horse's movement is leaving a rider open to more accidents because they are already half way to falling off...


If I hunt, it is with a gun, and if I jump, it is probably off the bed of my pickup. However, I didn't think any part of forward riding included getting ahead of the horse's movement - at least intentionally. (see signature)

I tend to ride western, but I would hope most readers would figure out that I don't mean THIS sort of western:


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## ponyboy

When I was taking lessons about 20 years ago (holy cow I'm old), I got yelled at for doing auto releases because of the chance of losing your balance and catching the horse in the mouth. They "lay on the horse's neck" method of jumping was considered safer and proper. (Granted I wasn't doing eventing). 

As for using half-seat between jumps, if the horse is not in need of a seat aid then why not?


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## Chiilaa

ponyboy said:


> As for using half-seat between jumps, if the horse is not in need of a seat aid then why not?


If your horse does not require a seat aid between two jumps, you are riding too much on your hands and heels. The seat should be far more important.


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## Ray MacDonald

I always just figured:

Two Point: Two points of contact- calves and knees, slightly forward upperbody

Forward Seat: Leaned a little forward in the seat, butt comes off of the seat a little more but still has 3 points of contact.


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## maura

In the spirit of full disclosure, I should say that all my early riding training was in American hunter seat, and that what I pursued certification, it was with the ANRC (Affiliated National Riding Comission) and organization that promotes and teaches Littauer's vision of forward seat riding. 

I am a passionate advocate for the true American system of forward seat riding. No, that does not mean I advocate jumping ahead, laying on the horse's neck, the floating faux crest release, or the hollow backed, duck butt posture and more than anyone else advocates for the worst characteristics of their chosen discipline. I advocate for a freely forward moving, relaxed, obedient horse doing his job with as little interference or influence from his rider as possible, as close to his natural balance and movement as possible. 

I came to eventing and jumpers later in my career, and I approached both endeavors from the perspective of that early forward seat background.

I once asked a famous eventing clinician why eventers couldn't ride everything from a two point, and why they looked so awful riding drops. His response was "Because no Italian (Caprilli) ever won the Grand National." More about that later. 

I'm going to stop there and address a point mentioned earlier, the idea of the importance of seat as an aid. Sorry, and I know this is going to upset people from dressage backgrounds, *your seat is not an aid in forward seat riding* period. There is some place for a full following seat, but no place for a driving seat or your seat as an aid. Your weight may be an aid, but your seat is not. The idea is that you have a horse that moves freely forward NOT held between your leg and hand, and that if you have established, pace, balance and direction correctly, you do absolutely nothing in the last three strides before the fence. This last bit is a concept I have heard repeated over and over by eventing instructors and clinicians, including some from the UK. Some riders, especially those with a strong dressage background, are just very reluctant to give up that seat to hand connection, but ultimately, I believe dependence on that seat to hand connection robs the horse of his ability to think for itself and jump his rider out of trouble when they inevitably make a mistake. 

In an earlier thread on this forum about making the transition from American hunters to eventing, I summed up the various points by saying "Riders from an eventing background keep themselves in the tack unless circumstances dictate that they come out of it, riders from a hunter/forward seat background stay out of the tack unless circumstances dictate that they stay in it/take a deep seat." I have a pretty firm conviction that that's the better way, and I recently got support from and unexpected source. 

Jimmy Wofford wrote an article in the August 2011 Practical Horseman called "The Science of Galloping" in which he referenced a 2008 Royal Veterinary College study which concluded that the workload on a horse was greatly reduced in the rider assumed a balanced, flexible galloping position out of the tack as opposed to seated in the tack. 

Obviously you want to assume a defensive position jumping down banks, jumping into water, jumping downhill or in a tight, very technical combination where you need a lot of influence over the horse's stride. However, you are saving your horse work if the rest of the time, you are out of the tack, in a poised, balanced flexible two point position.


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## Jumper12

Maura, I definitely agree with the differences in h/j style riding and event riding. As someone who has done both I can see a HUGE difference in the way these 2 groups view and use the seat. I am more of a forward seat rider myself and have my horse trained to the point that I don't need the seat to "drive" my horse forward on course in most situations (flat terrain, mare not stopping/baulking, etc). Her forward has come from my leg(note: not heel!) and her collection from adding leg into a more firm hand, using seat where needed and mostly in a fairly light fashion. If I felt I needed to being driving from the seat and sitting straight up to every fence I would be seriously scared for myself on XC, and in all honesty I wouldnt take a horse on XC who needed so much push into every fence. 
On another note I think people confuse the forward seat with jumping ahead, which its not. Holding 2pt over a fence is not the same as anticipating your horses jump and throwing your self on to the neck putting the horse off balance!
Just my 2 cents!!


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## maura

And finally, for Foxhunter, who is asleep on the other side of the world -

I have a theory that the British version of "hunter seat" and the American version evolved differently because our respective geography and topography are different. 

I've been often told that British foxhunters hunt *in* the ground, Americans *on* it, meaning that the footing is often *deep* and difficult for our British compatriots and requires a different type of horse. I've also heard (please correct me if I'm wrong) thta hunting in Britain means or meant navigating lots of small cultivated fields that are fenced or paneled, and that there's no equivelent to wide open American pastureland. Then when you add in sunken roads, fencing fields with hedges and ditch and bank combinatiions, etc., as opposed to galloping long distances on flat pastureland between fences, you have a pretty good explanation of why the British hunting seat involves more of a full seat in the tack and the American hunting seat or forward seat is more out of the tack. 

Doesn't mean one is wrong and one is right, means that each evolved to appropriately meet the challenges of terrain.


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## mildot

I knew it.

John Strassburger proves you can gallop in two point, still use your seat as part of the aids to rebalance the horse coming into jumps, and then get off your horse's back as he jumps


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## mildot

Another good one. She got left slightly behind on a couple of fences, which I would much rather do than the other possibility


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## Foxhunter

Ray MacDonald said:


> I always just figured:
> 
> Two Point: Two points of contact- calves and knees, slightly forward upperbody
> 
> Forward Seat: Leaned a little forward in the seat, butt comes off of the seat a little more but still has 3 points of contact.


To me two point is getting the butt out of the saddle onto ones knees and thighs. Taking the riders weight off the horse's back.
(When I worked in a jump racing yard, brother, did my legs ache from the faster work, not because of two point but because of two point with stirrups four or five holes shorter than normal!)

Forward seat is the position one takes over a fence.


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## Foxhunter

I am a passionate advocate for the true American system of forward seat riding. No, that does not mean I advocate jumping ahead, laying on the horse's neck, the floating faux crest release, or the hollow backed, duck butt posture and more than anyone else advocates for the worst characteristics of their chosen discipline. 

The above is what I was referring to. (love the 'duck butt!)

I advocate for a freely forward moving, relaxed, obedient horse doing his job with as little interference or influence from his rider as possible, as close to his natural balance and movement as possible. 

I do not think anyone could argue with this!

I'm going to stop there and address a point mentioned earlier, the idea of the importance of seat as an aid. Sorry, and I know this is going to upset people from dressage backgrounds, *your seat is not an aid in forward seat riding* period. Agreed - how can it be when the butt sould be out of the saddle?


There is some place for a full following seat, but no place for a driving seat or your seat as an aid.
Here I disagree, look at the videos posted and others of top riders and going into a fence they all resume a 'sitting more upright and seat in the saddle' position. 

Your weight may be an aid, but your seat is not. The idea is that you have a horse that moves freely forward NOT held between your leg and hand, and that if you have established, pace, balance and direction correctly, you do absolutely nothing in the last three strides before the fence.
Ideally yes, a horse should be set up correctly *but* cross country is another matter and a horse can change his mind in the last three strides and the rider has to get those three strides set up which, if it requires a shortening of stride the seat should come into play. 

This last bit is a concept I have heard repeated over and over by eventing instructors and clinicians, including some from the UK. Some riders, especially those with a strong dressage background, are just very reluctant to give up that seat to hand connection, but ultimately, I believe dependence on that seat to hand connection robs the horse of his ability to think for itself and jump his rider out of trouble when they inevitably make a mistake. 

Not so! A mistake made usually results in the horse pecking or falling, a rider who can sit down and back allowing the reins to slip through their fingers, giving a horse its head but still having some contact, is more likely to get out of trouble than the rider who maintains a forward seat adding their weight to the front end which is already in trouble!



In an earlier thread on this forum about making the transition from American hunters to eventing, I summed up the various points by saying "Riders from an eventing background keep themselves in the tack unless circumstances dictate that they come out of it, riders from a hunter/forward seat background stay out of the tack unless circumstances dictate that they stay in it/take a deep seat." I have a pretty firm conviction that that's the better way, and I recently got support from and unexpected source. 

Jimmy Wofford wrote an article in the August 2011 Practical Horseman called "The Science of Galloping" in which he referenced a 2008 Royal Veterinary College study which concluded that the workload on a horse was greatly reduced in the rider assumed a balanced, flexible galloping position out of the tack as opposed to seated in the tack. 

No argument with this - it stands to reason that if the back end is left free to propel the forward motion, it is going to be easier!
Obviously you want to assume a defensive position jumping down banks, jumping into water, jumping downhill or in a tight, very technical combination where you need a lot of influence over the horse's stride. However, you are saving your horse work if the rest of the time, you are out of the tack, in a poised, balanced flexible two point position.
Here we are in total agreement!

The forward seat is a vital part of riding at speed so it makes it easier on the horse. No argument here at all. My original point was over the 'duck butt, ahead of the movement' position taught in the hunters arena.

The hardest thing to do when a horse makes a mistake, or, more likely, is trying its best to correct a rider error, is to sit still and do nothing!


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## Foxhunter

maura said:


> And finally, for Foxhunter, who is asleep on the other side of the world -
> 
> I have a theory that the British version of "hunter seat" and the American version evolved differently because our respective geography and topography are different.
> 
> I've been often told that British foxhunters hunt *in* the ground, Americans *on* it, meaning that the footing is often *deep* and difficult for our British compatriots and requires a different type of horse. I've also heard (please correct me if I'm wrong) thta hunting in Britain means or meant navigating lots of small cultivated fields that are fenced or paneled, and that there's no equivelent to wide open American pastureland. Then when you add in sunken roads, fencing fields with hedges and ditch and bank combinatiions, etc., as opposed to galloping long distances on flat pastureland between fences, you have a pretty good explanation of why the British hunting seat involves more of a full seat in the tack and the American hunting seat or forward seat is more out of the tack.
> 
> Doesn't mean one is wrong and one is right, means that each evolved to appropriately meet the challenges of terrain.


You are correct in the topography is very different! 
Riders out hunting (and referring to fox hunting not with a gun) do get out of the saddle however over a fence and these are not all built hunt jumps but often *BIG* hedges with and without ditches, often not known, out of deep going. The seat is, or should be forward, as the horse takes off but the rider taking the backward seat as the horse reaches the apex and sitting well back when the horse lands, slipping the reins. This is to allow for a sudden decrease in speed if the horse hits deep ground or if there is a drop or stumble allowing the horse a free front end. Then the two point should be resumed.

Some years ago I was hunting a sweet little horse I wanted to sell. The Master's wife was riding a new horse which was proving way to strong for her and she was having an awful time. Seeing an opportunity I offered to swap rides which was gratefully accepted.
Master's wife was having a wonderful time whilst I was being pulled and hauled around the county.
Hounds found and away they went in full cry. Blood was up and although trying to keep to the rear of the field (field referring to the following riders) I was soon upsides the front riders and two fences on, ahead of them all and catching up with the Master.
Not having a lot of choice in the matter I was soon a couple of lengths behind him and he headed towards an enormous hedge. No exaggeration - it hadn't been trimmed so was about 5' high with another 2 feet of years growth and about 8 feet in width. I heard the Master call out "Ditch" and knowing that this was going to take a heck of an effort on behalf of the horse, I allowed her to go that little bit faster to clear it. 
She jumped big and wide, I adopted the backward seat as she landed and ht the buckle of the reins, but the extra speed made her buckle on landing an down she went onto her knees and nose then belly before rolling over into her side and my leg. I was then horseless!
Someone caught her and brought her back to me and when hounds checked very soon after the Master was taking the mickey out of me for falling. I retorted "Well it was your fault, you called out "Ditch" 
He roared with laughter and said "I never called out 'Ditch' I called out 'Sh1T' when I saw the size of that hedge!"


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## maura

I actually really liked the John Strassberger video mildot posted, and it shows a style of riding I heartily approve of and like. First of all, his horse was going *forward* to his fences and his setting him up for the jumping efforts was done by lifting his upper body and using his weight, not seat, and not done primarily with his hands, all too common among event riders. His efforts to balance the horse for the jumping efforts were subtle and didn't interfere were the horse.

I liked the video of the stadium round much less; obviously a less skilled rider, of course, but IMO, she spent far too much time riding backward. You can achieve the same pace and balance on course by establishing pace, balance and rhythm early and then allowing the horse to go to his fences. I can't tell if mildot posted that for contrast to the first one by his comments, but to my eye, it was in sharp contrast to the first. It was also the kind of constant seat to hand riding that creates rider-dependent horses that can't jump their way out of trouble in a pinch. 

There's a video on the forum in the critique section of an amateur jumper that I just love, it shows what I'm speaking of - happy horse, going forward in balance and rhythm, rider in harmony, controlled, without taking a deep, driving seat. Big contrast to the second video posted.

If I'm on course and a horse peaks or stalls and looks hard at a fence, of course I'm going to assume a deep, even driving seat and defensive posture and use whatever I've got to push it to the fence. But that's about the only scenario in which I'm going to use my seat as an aid while jumping. Even when I take a truly defensive position to jump downhill, I don't drive from my seat to my hand in the fashion of the rider in the second video. Picking your shoulders up, and touching your seat bones to the saddle and having a following seat in front of a fence as you reestablish balance, like most riders do XC is not using seat as an aid, it's using weight, and is entirely consistent with good forward seat riding. Sitting up and assuming a following seat in a related distance, or between elements in a technical combination to retard stride and make the distance work is much the same. 

The American style of forward seat riding was actually developed as a way of teaching novices and amateurs a system that would allow them to ride, hunt and show safely and acheive a level of competence quickly, without the months on a lunge line necessary to develop an educated full seat, and without abusing the horse. Forward seat riding done correctly, meaning the rider is in balance, is quite safe, which the possible exception of ditch, hedge and bank combinations, the Trout Hatchery at Burghley or the Head of the Lake at Rolex or Becher's Brook at the Grand National. Forward seat riding done badly and out of balance, like any other discipline done badly and out of balance, is dangerous and unfair to the horse. 

Would it be safe to say, Foxhunter, that you have no objection to good forward seat riding, but mightily object to it done badly?


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## xxBarry Godden

*Hunting the Rarebit Way*

It is good to see this subject aired and discussed. The fine stylish riders have their say elsewhere. I have never read before nor been taught the techniques employed on riding to hounds in England. In my experience by the time a rider reaches the stage of expertise to cope with a day’s hunting over typical English rural terrain it is assumed they can ride and control the horse between their thighs. The riders should not be judged for elegance, they ought to be judged by whether they can sit and hold back an excited horse. Once the horse has realised that it is hunt day, the animal is so fired up with adrenaline that for the first hour or so, it is all some riders can do to keep it back with the rest of the field. 

It was many years ago when last I rode to hounds in central Southern England on a five year old recently backed Irish Draught gelding . He was a big inexperienced animal, out in company for the very first time. The hunt riders were attired in white and black, the horses were manicured as if for the showground, the field composed of the old, the mature, the inexperieinced and the very young. It was a very gentile affair but a good day to introduce my Irish Hunter to his profession. That day my full Irish Draught youngster named Sherman, finally lost his composure and we came home early before he and I got hurt. His, is another story.

Nowadays in Southern Wales, the farmer’s hunts are very different affairs. The favoured open ground is made up of upland moorland covered with heather and the ubiquitous weed of bracken. The local farmers will have rights to free graze sheep and ponies. Rabbits abound along with the deer. The dangerous minefields are the bogs down into which the horse can easily sink. With experience the rider can spot them from the green foliage but it is the locally bred horse which knows where they lie. The horses are usually Welsh Cobs or crosses. These are fast agile devils, not valued so much for their elegance rather their sure footedness. When their day job is to round up sheep, then they have to be able to come as fast down a hillside as they can scramble up it.

On this sort of ground, looks goes out of the window and undoubtedly the unwitting visiting rider is in for a surprise. For a start it is not a good idea to bring one’s own horse but if the visitor is to hire a horse then first he must get to know it over the days before the meet. The locals don’t school their horses to an English BHS rule book. The horse will be sensitive to the rider’s weight, the hands, the calves and thighs. Hardy Welsh cobs don’t suffer riding fools gladly. How the rider sits will determine the speed of the horse and even the slightest involuntary twitch will set the horse off into a gallop. The wise rider keeps a very light contact with the mouth but makes no attempt to draw the horse’s nose down nor to restrict the movement of the neck. If the unwitting rider thinks they are going to ride collected on shortened reins, then they will find the horse will snatch the rider almost out of the saddle The horse knows what is coming and it demands control of its own head. On this terrain the rider is fully dependent upon the horse’s inborn ability to stay upright The challenge is not the hedges to jump rather it is the uneven ground to cross. The only occasional relief is the stoney track created centuries ago by the drovers 

One must be aware that suddenly the horses might take off after the master and one might find oneself at the top of a steep escarpment looking down the 45 degree slope which the horse is about to slither, almost on its butt - that is unless the rider has the bottle to adopt Capt Caprilli’s forward pose. The rider will have fitted a running martingale and probably a neck strap so that he/she has some leverage to bend or turn the horse’s neck when the times come to slow down. 

The ride will be wearing a sturdy pair of gloves and perhaps a wide elasticated belt to protect the lower spine. He/she will be dressed for the wind to blow and the rain to come belting down. Finery is not expected. The horse is going to get wet, sweaty and muddy. It can be bay, black, grey or any colour on the chart. 

The rider’s boots will be rammed home into wide stirrups irons, the leathers of which must be renewed regularly because on this day there will be a lot of standing in the stirrups. And most importantly of all there will be in one pocket a flask of brandy or whisky or whatever your tipple is and in the other pocket some energy biscuits. This nutrition is there to top up the fiery liquor dispensed off a silver tray to all and sundry back at the meet. Body warmth was the excuse for the tipple; courage was the real reason. Children on ponies aren’t welcome except by special invitation. 

Someone in the local A&E will know its the day for the local hunt and the Master will have the phone numbers in case of need, so long as there is a working signal up in the cwms. Mostly the bracken makes a soft landing for a discarded rider but the hidden rocks can bring about a broken bone or two.

A day with the hunt over the high moors leaves the rider exhausted The satisfaction comes from not having made a fool of oneself. The fox very often gets away, only to be shot by the farmer once the season is over to protect his lambs. It was the chase after the guy in the red jacket that gave the fun. 

As for the style of riding, well you name it, then you’ll spot it On the day, the rider will spend as much time standing in the stirrups as sitting in the saddle. The last minute swerve to avoid a rock calls for a swift transfer of weight. Knowing how to slip a foot back into a flapping stirrup iron at the gallop is a very useful skill. As for sitting bolt upright, toes lightly balanced in the irons, in a rounded outline with the horse’s nose in the ramener position, well that’s a style for the arena 

The fact is that one is not taught this style of riding, one gains it with experience over the years. A tip here or a tip there helps shorten the learning curve but it is still the wise old horse that does most of the teaching. 

The Welsh Boyos from the Valleys are the only group I know who hold rodeos at the small country fairs in the tourist season. Rodeoing is the bareback riding of Welsh ponies without bridles or bits, merely a handful of mane. The duo comes out of the chute to a whoop and a holler only for the rider to fly through the air and hit the dust within seconds, never minutes. A feral Welsh C mare is a tiny horse but one renowned for bucking. Nowadays the rules say you are supposed to take part when sober.

As has been said on this thread, the way one rides across wild open country is determined by the nature of the terrain not the dictats of the showing arena.


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## mildot

maura said:


> his setting him up for the jumping efforts was done by lifting his upper body and using his weight, not seat, and not done primarily with his hands,


Depending on the fence, I see him rebalance the horse a couple of different ways. Some are subtle, some more aggressive.

For instance, at about 1:12 you can see a definite use of reins and a lowering of the weight back to the saddle. A few seconds later at around 1:15 I see a driving seat into hands to the jump. Presumably he felt he needed the horse's haunches to come up more under him. Do you see the same thing or am I misreading what he does?




maura said:


> I liked the video of the stadium round much less; obviously a less skilled rider, of course, but IMO, she spent far too much time riding backward. You can achieve the same pace and balance on course by establishing pace, balance and rhythm early and then allowing the horse to go to his fences.


Isn't the nature of hunter and jumper courses different enough to warrant a more active rider? From what I know, many jumper courses even at the lower levels seem to ask questions that need more abrubt changes of stride and/or tighter turns. Other than the couple of times when she gets left behind the motion, I see her folding over nicely while still keeping her center of gravity over the saddle and her seat off the horse over the fences. She does take a deeper seat between most fences but that seems to me to not change the horse's pace except where you can see clear half halts.

I'm not trying to criticize or pick nits. Trying to learn here.


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## Catdog88

That is a beautiful photo!


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## hoopla

hoopla said:


> Two point and huntseat is what a rider does when they hang over the horse because they're not balanced nor have an independent seat. :wink:


 When I posted the aforementioned it was of course in the context of another thread on cultural differences and was deliberately meant as an example of English sarcasm.


I'm not seeing much at all to take exception to though when it comes to decent descriptions and examples of what is effective riding.


My background is with national hunt steeplechasing and my father was MFH for the oldest hunt in the UK and my mother was Joint Master. My first hunt was aged 6 and over some very challenging 13th century dry stone walls and across heather moorland criss cross with ditches and walls. 



Because of the act of enclosure in the 16th century and the geography we have small fields all bounded with walls, hedges or fencing. That means you have to jump well and that means riding defensively and allowing the horse to use itself or else you're a goner! 























This looks down on my land to my farm and you'll see how rocky and hilly we are and how it's criss crossed with a patchwork quilt of small fields bounded by walls and hedges:














Foxhunter said:


> The forward seat is a vital part of riding at speed so it makes it easier on the horse. No argument here at all. My original point was over the 'duck butt, ahead of the movement' position taught in the hunters arena.
> 
> The hardest thing to do when a horse makes a mistake, or, more likely, is trying its best to correct a rider error, is to sit still and do nothing!



When I teach pupils they don't even get to pick up reins until they can steer a horse and transition walk to trot and back to walk using only legs and seat One thing I do to help gain understanding of how a horse thinks and behaves is to get a rider to stay motionless when a horse is at walk and in effect to demonstrate that if you do nothing the horse will eventually just stop and graze. Truth be told it's REALLY REALLY hard for many "so called 'experienced'" riders to stop being active in the saddle.


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## xxBarry Godden

Hoopla
It is difficult to envisage that is your part of Dorset - certainly it is a part I have missed out on finding. You are a lucky man.
Dorset to me has always been a coastline or a tank range.
B G


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## hoopla

Dorset? I'm not in Dorset!!! Nowhere near Dorset!!!!! 

I'm in Northumberland and right on the Scottish border.


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## xxBarry Godden

Ah, I now think it was Foxhunter who said he was from Dorset. Apologies

Is what I am looking at known as the Cheviots?

I once rode up there on the beach by Lindisfarne Island from a riding centre owned by 'Judge' Jeffries. His horse took me swimming in the sea.

Noone your photo was stunning - that is a beautiful part of Britain as well you know.


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## Foxhunter

Barry Godden said:


> Hoopla
> It is difficult to envisage that is your part of Dorset - certainly it is a part I have missed out on finding. You are a lucky man.
> Dorset to me has always been a coastline or a tank range.
> B G


'Tis I oo be in Darsetshire. 'e knows county well and picture bain't be any part I knows!


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## hoopla

Barry Godden said:


> Ah, I now think it was Foxhunter who said he was from Dorset. Apologies
> 
> Is what I am looking at known as the Cheviots?
> 
> I once rode up there on the beach by Lindisfarne Island from a riding centre owned by 'Judge' Jeffries. His horse took me swimming in the sea.


I hope you intended to go in the sea otherwise I can't imagine Dickie would have been very pleased.

Dickie Jeffreys (not "ies") owns a riding centre about 6 miles from me.

Yes I'm in the Cheviot Hills which is the top of the Pennine Range.

Lindisfarne is about 15 miles as the crow flies from here.

This is me and mine driving to Lindisfarne Castle on Holy Island


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## xxBarry Godden

Northumberland, lovely country - a bit cold to live in but well worth the visit.

And there's you with a matching pair. Very smart

Dickie's horse took me galloping across the sands at a very fast pace. On the way back Dickie manoevred me and my trusty steed into the surf where he knew there was a scour. Suddenly there I am suddenly swimming in the sea on horseback for the first time ever. Magic memories.

He offered to take me up to the Beating of the Parish Boundaries over the border but he warned me that with my Cockney accent I'd need to have some mates from Down South as protection.

Herewith a photo of my much missed cob - Joe. I have the idea he was a 'Galloway' , he was certainly Gypsy bred . Does he look familiar?


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## Foxhunter

mildot said:


> Another good one. She got left slightly behind on a couple of fences, which I would much rather do than the other possibility
> 
> 095S Kaitlin Carroll Training Stadium Jumping Twin Rivers HT January 2012 (no audio) - YouTube


I do not think that this is particularly good. She is way to busy with her seat and hands. I also think that because of this and the fact her heels a jammed way to low, she is stiff and hollow in her lower back.


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## Foxhunter

Sorry I cannot pick up the URL - but go to Youtube and William Fox Pitt Cross Country.
I love the way Will rides, he is 6'5" and for his size rides shorter than most cross country. 
In this video at 35s the horse hesitates at a drop, then launches. Will slips his reins and just points to the next fence and does nothing (he did tell me he was praying!)
Training and trust enabled them to get over it with no problem.


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## mildot

Foxhunter said:


> I do not think that this is particularly good. She is way to busy with her seat and hands. I also think that because of this and the fact her heels a jammed way to low, she is stiff and hollow in her lower back.


I do see the stiffness in her back reflected in some bouncess off the cantle. But I thought her hands were relatively quiet.


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## mildot

Foxhunter said:


> Sorry I cannot pick up the URL - but go to Youtube and William Fox Pitt Cross Country.
> I love the way Will rides, he is 6'5" and for his size rides shorter than most cross country.
> In this video at 35s the horse hesitates at a drop, then launches. Will slips his reins and just points to the next fence and does nothing (he did tell me he was praying!)
> Training and trust enabled them to get over it with no problem.


WHOA :shock:


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## maura

I have to put my moderator hat on here briefly. 

I don't know who the rider is in the second video, but if she did not consent to have the video posted here and critiqued or used as an example, I think we should refrain from commenting further. 

Moderator hat off, and back to our conversation. 

Foxhunter, 

I am a big fan of William Fox Pitt, and I will see if I can find something of his to post. I love moments such as you have described, because they are the proof of training technique - if you have always ridden your horse held precisiely between your leg, seat and hand and never independently, freely forward you get in those sticky situations and your horse does not know how to find a fifth leg and save you. You can get away with that in the jumpers, though it will never be a style I admire. However, in both foxhunting and XC, your horse must be secure and confident enough to continue to go forward and where he's pointed in those "Oh, crap!" slip the reins sort of moments. 

PS - the horse in my avatar had a much more successful career as a jumper than an event horse as dressage was not his forte. We frequently disagreed about pace and balance going into combinations; which mean we frequently jumped in really, really wrong, at which time I would slip or drop the reins and say "Okay, smarty pants, you got us in this mess, you get us out." and we not only both lived through the experience, we won our share. A lesser or differently trained horse would stop, pull a rail or crash. (Okay, and a better horse would have listened to me, since I walked the course and he didn't, but we eventually sorted that out.)


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## Foxhunter

maura said:


> I have to put my moderator hat on here briefly.
> 
> I don't know who the rider is in the second video, but if she did not consent to have the video posted here and critiqued or used as an example, I think we should refrain from commenting further.
> 
> Moderator hat off, and back to our conversation.
> 
> Foxhunter,
> 
> I am a big fan of William Fox Pitt, and I will see if I can find something of his to post. I love moments such as you have described, because they are the proof of training technique - if you have always ridden your horse held precisiely between your leg, seat and hand and never independently, freely forward you get in those sticky situations and your horse does not know how to find a fifth leg and save you. You can get away with that in the jumpers, though it will never be a style I admire. However, in both foxhunting and XC, your horse must be secure and confident enough to continue to go forward and where he's pointed in those "Oh, crap!" slip the reins sort of moments.
> 
> PS - the horse in my avatar had a much more successful career as a jumper than an event horse as dressage was his forte. We frequently disagreed about pace and balance going into combinations; which mean we frequently jumped in really, really wrong, at which time I would slip or drop the reins and say "Okay, smarty pants, you got us in this mess, you get us out." and we not only both lived through the experience, we won our share. A lesser or differently trained horse would stop, pull a rail or crash. (Okay, and a better horse would have listened to me, since I walked the course and he didn't, but we eventually sorted that out.)


I think that any horse, especially as they go up the grades eventing, thinks that they know better at the start of the course. 
Watch many of the video's, including the one posted here earlier and that of William, and they are both, as are many others, having to demand rather than ask, over the first fence.

I agree with you about a bold horse. Very important around here over the hedges and trappy fences we come across.

The advantage of hunting here is that it does give a horse a good grounding for jumping off all sorts of terrain.
One of our show jumpers took his top international show jumper out hunting several times because the horse was unsure jumping if the ground was wet/muddy. The horse loved it and the problem was solved.

One of the best rider CC was Licinda Green (nee Prior Palmer) I watched her jumping the Trout hatchery at Burley. The horse made a mistake and nearly went down. She just sat there giving him his head and somehow the horse recovered, jumped the fence immediately in front of him and the one out of the water.
Lucinda rarely rode a horse in a martingale because if things like this happened they needed total freedom of their heads to recover.


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## ponyboy

Chiilaa said:


> If your horse does not require a seat aid between two jumps, you are riding too much on your hands and heels. The seat should be far more important.


The whole point of the hunter discipline is to have a horse that is easy to jump on - one that doesn't constantly need its stride length or frame adjusted. If the horse has a good natural stride, then unless the course is purposely set to make an odd distance (which hunter courses normally aren't), the horse shouldn't need any seat aids while on course.


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## maura

I had the great good fortune to audit a clinic by Lucinda when she was still Prior-Palmer, and before she had four names. 

Besides being enormously entertaining, modest and very funny, she was very, very solid in her fundamentals, and talked at great length about some of the topics we've discussed here - the importance of getting out of the tack and letting the horse gallop on without interference, the importance of staying out of the horse's way except when absolutely necessary and how forgiving our horses can be if we give them the chance. 

I have her autograph on a copy of her eventing book, I brought my copy to the clinic and she signed it, very graciously.


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