# Impressive/Peppy San Badger combinations



## Catag94 (Dec 31, 2017)

Curious if anyone has had any experience with horses out of Little Peppy lines x Impressive lines. Assuming one can avoid HYPP and HERDA it seems there may be someone who has ran across this. I am anxious to hear what experiences may be. Thanks.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

One of the Paint mares is Impressive/Peppy San Badger/ Doc Bar and she is a jewel. Has done everything we've asked. Originally was a barrel horse then eventer. Her sister Impressive /Peppy San Badger/Boston MacOne is another one of our favorites. She's a paint too. One of our stallions was Impressive/ Grey Badger 11 X (close relative to Peppy San Badger)/ Skipper W. I wish I'd have never gelded him. One of my other favorites was Impressive/Doc Bar/ Skipper W. Do you have specific questions?


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## pigeonflight (Sep 24, 2017)

I have one out of Impressive (Great-grandparent on the mare's side). I've only had her since September and she's really young, but I like her. She runs from the hose pouring water and hates spray bottles spraying her are my only two things that make it difficult (roll-on fly repellent is the way to go). I only ride her for about 10-20 minutes a week right now (she'll be 3 in March), but she can walk, trot, side pass and back up under saddle.


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## Catag94 (Dec 31, 2017)

I ask because I just acquired a beautiful 2yo colt that comes from both Impressive and Coolest on both sides. His temperament is awesome and he is smart. I just sent him to be started to see if he will
make an riding horse for the ranch. We shall see. He is such a pleasure to work with that I am optimistic. And, his is built so well that I was wondering about the possibility of later breeding him to a Little Peppy mare. Please feel free to educate me I welcome any advice.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay, taking exceptions out of the equation, no serious performance breeder will breed a halter horse to a performance horse, so a horse bred like that, will be of no interest to either a serious working horse person, or a halter horse person
That alone cuts down the potencial value of a horse bred like that, but not to say some of them don't become great riding horses
If a reining horse person, cutter, ect,was looking for a prospect,that halter breeding would be a 'no go'
Similarly, a halter specialist would pass. Breed like to like.
Not to say, that some of these horses don't work great for anyone not serious in any discipline


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Catag94 said:


> I ask because I just acquired a beautiful 2yo colt that comes from both Impressive and Coolest on both sides. His temperament is awesome and he is smart. I just sent him to be started to see if he will
> make an riding horse for the ranch. We shall see. He is such a pleasure to work with that I am optimistic. And, his is built so well that I was wondering about the possibility of later breeding him to a Little Peppy mare. Please feel free to educate me I welcome any advice.


I would not breed him to a performance horse, hoping to get a pretty riding horse. Often, you get neither, but if just breeding for your own use, no harm to try. He is halter bred, and while some halter horses ride, that is not what they have been selected for
I would breed a Little Peppy mare to crosses that have worked, on the Peppy San horses. I myself had an Appaloosa mare, ( resulted from an AQHA outcross to a Peppy San AQHA mare ) , but her Appaloosa side was working bred.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

You should be fine making him a riding horse for the ranch as long as he has the mind for it since you'll probably be riding him around cows. My Impressives don't care about cows but they don't like pigs, not at all. They do fine with dirt bikes and cars, they handle noise and wind without any issues. They cross creeks and don't even mind opening and closing gates.

I have 2 Impressive bred horses. A mare who is a 94 model and a gelding who is 10 this year. My mare was trained western pleasure and had the trainer not pushed so hard to make her a futurity horse, I think she would have been a right nice show horse. She has been shown locally and placed but she's quite a witchy little mare. She is however a nice well built horse and moved beautifully in the english hunt ring. I know, she is western pleasure trained but she was shown in the local hunt ring. I will admit that she is a little bit of a witch under saddle though. I'm not sure if that's Impressive in her or if she just has some witch in her. She also severed a tendon about 10 years ago and is now a back yard pony. But she has ridden english in the ring since and even jumped some.

My gelding is an all around and does have AQHA points. He also has placed very well in the Hunter Jumper arena. In fact, I pulled him out of the field one summer after having a few months off and let a girl show him. His first time out he placed 3rd out of 20 horses. And it wasn't a local level show, it was A rated.

I have actually seen quite a few western pleasure horses that do really well that have Impressive lines. While it is true that people don't normally cross halter horses with riding horses, I have seen many Impressive bred horses in the show ring and I've seen them placing. My horses do both have great minds. Riley has moments where I like to say he "loses his mind" because he sometimes gets really silly in the field or on the ground but in the saddle he is pretty darn solid. He is also very smooth and very comfortable to ride. He is my "old reliable". 

The only issue with him is that he does have navicular. He ended up with the tiny impressive feet. He is over 16 hands and probably 1300 lbs so that is something to look at... check his little feet out. Both of mine are HYPP/NN.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

You don't say what your colt's HYPP status is, nor what the mare's HERDA status is. Without knowing that up front, I wouldn't breed either of them. In the colt's case, N/H would qualify him for gelding immediately here on my place. I use a lot of Impressive & Skipper W and love it, but I don't do HYPP in any way shape or form. A mare who is a HERDA carrier bred to an Impressive/Skipper W stallion who was clear, should produce a pretty, good natured, easy to ride tank of a horse who will probably be quite a bit bigger than the dam, maybe the sire. 

If you're not thinking of world champion material at breed shows, or even working ranch horses, then it's not a total no go. You can get a good Ranch Versatility horse out of it, a great trail horse, and one you can take to local shows and have a lot of fun with. In addition to the ridden classes, you can show halter too, if you want to. I have a Skipper W/Impressive stallion and I have bred him to my Shining Spark mare and gotten a darling cremello colt (gelded) who is going to be a little tank and is very nice to look at. I also have a Listolena mare in foal to him for this spring. I'm expecting another pretty, tank of a colt. I also have a Skipper W mare who is in foal to him for the 2nd time, hopefully a pretty palomino filly this time. Her first foal by him is doing very well in Ranch Versatility, is bigger than both of his parents (16.3 and still growing) and just an all around good looking, gentle, sweet tempered gelding who is a very good ride. Know what you're breeding for before you do it, and understand there are a lot of old cowboy types out there who will sniff at the halter side of the equation without ever trying or even seeing the horse ridden. That's their problem, there are also a lot of folks who will say that they never would have thought a halter bred horse could do as well as........... fill in the blank.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Catag94 is your horse on AllBreed? 
There were about 10% of Impressive's get that were performance point earners, doing really well in their disciplines. There were those with performance bred mares looking to pretty them up. I'd guess most of those that did well in performance came from those mares. Impressive was race bred and had it not been for pedal oestitis would have been raced and maybe shown in performance. Who knows how he would have done. I do suspect he wouldn't have had a long career but it may have been a good one. That propensity I worry about when I see heavy Impressive breeding. Is it their build that causes it or is there a genetic factor that plays a part or both combined? I have know more than one halter horse out of that line that is halter because of lameness issues. They start out performance but end up in the halter ring. They could have gone both ways and may have done real well performance but for the lameness (general). Which came first the chicken or the egg? Most Impressive breds come from mixed lines at this point. Put the right horse in the right situation with money to promote and show and you (g) may be surprised at the result if that horse has 4 good feet. We have a local breeder that keeps about 1/4 Impressive in his barrel horses. He breeds to barrel lines and his horses clean up around here and go on to do real well. They're big, beautiful and fast on their feet.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

From what I read - she isn't looking to show. She said she is hoping he will make a "riding horse for the ranch". That to me means she'd like to make him a working horse. I don't have experience with that on my horses but I think both of them would do ok. They have no issues with sheep, goats, cows, etc. They just don't like pigs. I can ride fence and drag things with them. I can open and close gates and Riley will ride out alone. I can take him on trail or with a group. I can even leave a group and go another direction w/out issues. Beauty is a witch so I never tried it with her. I have ridden her around the yard alone away form the horses but they've always been within site or at least neighing distance.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

My family had an impressive mare. She was a nice enough ranch mare my mother bought after watching her compete in a reining. She never did end up being super talented, although she was pretty and gentle, she had a minor fear of cattle. She could work, but as soon as a fight started or something jumped on something she wanted to leave. She ended up getting cancer eye and was eventually put down.

They bred her to a cow horse prior to the cancer. The resulting baby was one my husband and I owned for a while. He was beautiful and managed ranch work very well, but he didn’t have a great mind. He was one to panick on the ground and we decided to get rid of him.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

To be clear, as stated, there is not a problem breeding such a horse for your own use (halter X working blood ), and many do serve their owner well.
MY sole point was, that if you intend to ever breed a horse to sell, crossing halter blood with performance blood, esp working horse (cowhorse/reining) is not the way to go.
Those two breeding scenarios are completely different (re sale, versus keeping that foal ), so many here can give examples where a horse with halter breeding turned out okay, made a good rider for them, BUT it goes against the grain if breeding that horse for re sale value
At one time, it was esp popular to breed halter horses to western pl horses, to create a pretty western pl horse. Reining/cowhorse, became more bloodline defined, way before that ), so you seldom if ever, see an upper end reiner or working cowhorse that is half pleasure bred.
That does not mean there are not some of those hroses out there, working for the average rider.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Smilie said:


> To be clear, as stated, there is not a problem breeding such a horse for your own use (halter X working blood ), and many do serve their owner well.
> MY sole point was, that if you intend to ever breed a horse to sell, crossing halter blood with performance blood, esp working horse (cowhorse/reining) is not the way to go.
> Those two breeding scenarios are completely different (re sale, versus keeping that foal ), so many here can give examples where a horse with halter breeding turned out okay, made a good rider for them, BUT it goes against the grain if breeding that horse for re sale value
> At one time, it was esp popular to breed halter horses to western pl horses, to create a pretty western pl horse. Reining/cowhorse, became more bloodline defined, way before that ), so you seldom if ever, see an upper end reiner or working cowhorse that is half pleasure bred.
> That does not mean there are not some of those hroses out there, working for the average rider.


She never said anything about breeding it though. She said she wanted it to be a horse for working the ranch.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Actually Farmpony she did. It was her second post to the thread.

"I ask because I just acquired a beautiful 2yo colt that comes from both Impressive and Coolest on both sides. His temperament is awesome and he is smart. I just sent him to be started to see if he will make an riding horse for the ranch. We shall see. He is such a pleasure to work with that I am optimistic. *And, his is built so well that I was wondering about the possibility of later breeding him to a Little Peppy mare.* Please feel free to educate me I welcome any advice."

While she mentions Impressive and Coolest in the breeding (I assume) top and bottom she does not say whether the Impressive comes from the Coolest or is also present in another line. Coolest (1988) has one line to Impressive (4th gen back) and a lot of lines that go to Skipper W. I'd want to see the pedigree. If Coolest is 4 or even 3 generations back both sides and that is where the Impressive comes from then there really isn't enough to amount to much of anything. There is also a Little Peppy QH that is not the same as Peppy San Badger but I assume from the thread title that she means Peppy San Badger.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Gotcha. I am not anti breeding a well built halter lined horse to a riding horse. BUT it would have to be a well built as in, a horse that actually has the ability to move. Many, MANY halter horses are not built to move or even to ride. They fall apart and break down and just don't have the right conformation. Smilie is on target then with her responses.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> Actually Farmpony she did. It was her second post to the thread.
> 
> "I ask because I just acquired a beautiful 2yo colt that comes from both Impressive and Coolest on both sides. His temperament is awesome and he is smart. I just sent him to be started to see if he will make an riding horse for the ranch. We shall see. He is such a pleasure to work with that I am optimistic. *And, his is built so well that I was wondering about the possibility of later breeding him to a Little Peppy mare.* Please feel free to educate me I welcome any advice."
> 
> While she mentions Impressive and Coolest in the breeding (I assume) top and bottom she does not say whether the Impressive comes from the Coolest or is also present in another line. Coolest (1988) has one line to Impressive (4th gen back) and a lot of lines that go to Skipper W. I'd want to see the pedigree. If Coolest is 4 or even 3 generations back both sides and that is where the Impressive comes from then there really isn't enough to amount to much of anything. There is also a Little Peppy QH that is not the same as Peppy San Badger but I assume from the thread title that she means Peppy San Badger.


I'd like to know the 2 y.o.'s name so we can look him up. If he truly comes from Impressive & Coolest, top & bottom of the pedigree, (as we say) he's line bred all the way plumb and I'd highly doubt he's HYPP clear, though I suppose it COULD happen. Just with that kind of pedigree top & bottom the odds would be pretty slim.


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## Catag94 (Dec 31, 2017)

He is on AllBreeds and his name is ER Kaylees Star. I appreciate the commentary from you all. It's just his nature and his confirmation and build are all great and he also seems to be surprisingly athletic. Hence my curiosity on the topic. Even so, it would be for satisfying my curiosity and our personal use that I would try if I was going to. I agree that it would make no sense to mix the breeding for sale prospects. 
The comments are great so please add more thoughts now that the pedigree is out there. 

Oh , and I certainly did mean Peppy San Badger.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

There is a published list of the N/N HYPP status stallions. HR Secret Star is not on there. So you have N/H Kaylee Cool and N/H HR Secret Star. If your colt hit the HYPP lucky lottery he did not get it from either side and is N/N. Odds say he would likely be N/H. If H/H he would not have been able to be registered. Do you know his status? N/H for me would mean gelding him. 5 of the 8 in his 3rd generation go back on both sides to Impressive and the three that do not have it on both sides do have it on one side. I don't think I have ever seen that much Impressive in a pedigree. For a pedigree with that much halter I would say while you could possibly have a good horse performance wise you aren't likely to have a great horse performance wise. Not that it isn't possible just unlikely. You may also do really well locally in non point shows but not so well against horses bred for whatever discipline you are wanting to show in except halter. The horses that I have seen with Impressive that have done well as performance horses only had one line that Impressive was sire or grandsire or had no more than 1/4% wise of that breeding combined in the pedigree.

ETA and going back if I did the math correctly it only amounts to 8% Impressive so actually much less than some I am familiar with here but they have Impressive himself much closer up. Pretty much everything that has points in your horses pedigree though has halter points and no performance points. The sire carries PSSM1 according to AllBreed and not HYPP but he should be on the N/N list and isn't. Perhaps the list isn't up to date.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

If he's AQHA registered, then there should be a notation on the back side of his papers (where the markings are) as to what his HYPP results are.


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

I do remember Peppy. AQHA right? I went and visited the museum and I am AMAZED how many of the horses there were in the family of my horse. His great grandpa is Dash for Cash, who is a pretty big deal with AQHA. Peppy is somewhere in a blood line with On A High. I think. Lol.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The horses that I have seen with Impressive that have done well as performance horses only had one line that Impressive was sire or grandsire or had no more than 1/4% wise of that breeding combined in the pedigree. - Should have clarified and said the other 3/4 is performance breeding.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

My mare is a world champion Halter Horse for her sire with Impressive on the top (her grandfather) and Toedoes Flower on the bottom so she has a lot of halter but also some performance horses. She would have no issue holding up for cattle work. Even with her severed tendon she can still ride hard with or without shoes. If it weren't for the tendon I'm not sure she would have ever had a lame day (Works that way when the horse is ornery).

My gelding is Impressive top and bottom. His great-grandfather on the top and great great grandfather on the top of his sire and 3great grandfather on the bottom of the sire. He has done well for me in shows. Excellent at the local level show and mid-level show and ok at the AQHA level. He placed in novice classes and even pointed. In fact he pointed in a green class. BUT... he does have navicular and even without that he never would have yanked and banked and done any sort of ranch type work. He is a pretty english mover, top of class in a local show, mid to lower class in AQHA. He's top of class local WP and somewhere in the middle (or lower if I can't get my act together) in AQHA.

So... I think if it's double Impressive top and bottom... eh.... 

I would probably look at just buying a baby on the ground....


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I may have missed but curious... do you have a mare selected to breed to?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

She just said a Peppy San Badger mare but not one particular.


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

I assumed it was a QH.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> If he's AQHA registered, then there should be a notation on the back side of his papers (where the markings are) as to what his HYPP results are.


 It has been a few years since I was an AQHA member, having used that cross on some of my Appaloosas.
Far as I know,hypp testing is not mandatory on Impressive bred horses, but if the owner decides to test, then the hypp status is on those papers.
Otherwise, there is a sort of disclaimer, that the horse is from a line known to carry hypp.
Has that changed?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Yes. This is from their buyers guide. 

AQHA regulations require that a statement of possible HYPP inheritance be placed on all registration certificates of foals traced to Impressive born
after January 1, 1998. The statement will recommend testing to determine if the foal
has the genetic defect. If the foal’s genetic tests show it does not carry the defective
gene, the statement on the registration certificate will be removed and replaced with an 
N/N designating the foal does not have the defective gene. Breeding horses descending 
from Impressive that have already been tested and listed as N/N will not need to have
their foals tested, and the foals will have N/N on their registration certificate.
Effective with foals born on or after January 1, 2007, all descendants of Impressive are
required to be parentage verified and HYPP tested. Any foal testing homozygous
positive for HYPP (H/H) will not be eligible for registration with AQHA.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I'll see later if I can find the current recommendations and registration rules. I'm thinking they added Five Panel testing to stallions as a requirement but don't remember the wording.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

As said, some of the impressives do ride, crossed with some performance blood, but you see them in all around type classes ( halter, showmanship, HUS, western pl Trail, equitation)
You will not see an upper level working horse, be it cutting, reining or working cowhorse, bred like that. Those disciplines, have defined specific bloodlines in those events for several more generations, then say, what is considered 'a;;around, for people that ride pleasure classes, thus those people breed like to like.
I do know, that my yearlings who sold well, went on to becoming ApHC world champions and NRCHA winners, were out of my two reining bred mares, bred to High Sign Nugget, a multi World ApHc champion, NRCHA champion (against all breeds).
I did breed those mares to our own stallions, including one who was strongly pleasure bred ( Three Dimension Zip and Dynamic Deluxe ) Very nice horses, who ride really well, with one being my hubby's present trail horse, but at the same time, they never attracted the same market, as those horses out of those mares, bred to a proven cowhorse


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

I am a AQHYA member and if you want me to I can check.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I'm fixing to head to work and would have to look up my info to get on AQHA so if you have time PunchnMe I'd appreciate it. I haven't read my 2017 book through.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> Yes. This is from their buyers guide.
> 
> AQHA regulations require that a statement of possible HYPP inheritance be placed on all registration certificates of foals traced to Impressive born
> after January 1, 1998. The statement will recommend testing to determine if the foal
> ...


Thanks for the update. Positive step forward. Now, if they would only ban all hypp positive horses and not just homozygous from registration!
Hypp is an autosomal dominant trait, thus, unlike recessive traits, where there are carriers, can't be avoided by testing for any carrier state, thus not breeding two carriers together, like dealing with HERDA
I do not think carriers or recessive traits should be denied papers, but that they should be tested, to avoid breeding two carriers together, thus have clinical disease possible


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> I'll see later if I can find the current recommendations and registration rules. I'm thinking they added Five Panel testing to stallions as a requirement but don't remember the wording.


What about mares?


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

Alright.


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

The HYPP testing right?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

There was an Impressive bred brood mare that sold for $60,000 with two embyos from crossing her with Smooth As a Cat. He's up there as for Cutting names. They must expect that those babies will be able to do something. Didn't TwoEyedJack do well both halter and performance and his get even better? I understand that that isn't the normal road to go down when looking for a top performance horse but get further away from the halter blood and add in enough performance blood and there could be a few out there with pretty good standing in the points dept for performance. The OP simply mentioned breeding an Impressive bred stallion to PSB bred mare. Many when they say they have an Impressive bred aren't looking at large percentage of him in the bloodline at this point in breeding history. She's wanting something to work on a ranch with. She could get that but considering that colt is halter bred up the wazoo then you are correct about if she wanted to do more performance wise. We didn't know that until we could see his pedigree.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

HYPP in particular but 5 Panel would be nice to know as for what the rules are.


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> There was an Impressive bred brood mare that sold for $60,000 with two embyos from crossing her with Smooth As a Cat. He's up there as for Cutting names. They must expect that those babies will be able to do something. Didn't TwoEyedJack do well both halter and performance and his get even better? I understand that that isn't the normal road to go down when looking for a top performance horse but get further away from the halter blood and add in enough performance blood and there could be a few out there with pretty good standing in the points dept for performance. The OP simply mentioned breeding an Impressive bred stallion to PSB bred mare. Many when they say they have an Impressive bred aren't looking at large percentage of him in the bloodline at this point in breeding history. She's wanting something to work on a ranch with. She could get that but considering that colt is halter bred up the wazoo then you are correct about if she wanted to do more performance wise. We didn't know that until we could see his pedigree.


I think I have to agree with you on that.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

QtrBel said:


> She just said a Peppy San Badger mare but not one particular.


I'm on full on blonde mode this week! I think I like the Peppy San Badger lines... ranch horse or am I off again?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, of course, go back far enough, and many Foundation horses did lots of events they were not bred to do, as events were not that specific.
Doc bar, I believe was first bred to be either a race or halter horse, then became a foundation sire for cutting horses
Lots of running hroses also, as foundation blood. Old Fred threw in some draft
Western pl was first just an entry type class, with no specific breeding

I'd be interested in knowing about that Impressive mare. Was she a surrogate mare, to carry some embryos, or was she actually bred to that cutting stallion.
Can you provide a link?


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

Hmmmm. Doc bar. There is a sugar bar and a lot more Bars. Also a big part of my horses family. 
I have a book on them all lol. If I can find it again i bet I can find some peppy something. Now I KNOW there is a peppy on a the pedigree on a page...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> There was an Impressive bred brood mare that sold for $60,000 with two embyos from crossing her with Smooth As a Cat. He's up there as for Cutting names. They must expect that those babies will be able to do something. Didn't TwoEyedJack do well both halter and performance and his get even better? I understand that that isn't the normal road to go down when looking for a top performance horse but get further away from the halter blood and add in enough performance blood and there could be a few out there with pretty good standing in the points dept for performance. The OP simply mentioned breeding an Impressive bred stallion to PSB bred mare. Many when they say they have an Impressive bred aren't looking at large percentage of him in the bloodline at this point in breeding history. She's wanting something to work on a ranch with. She could get that but considering that colt is halter bred up the wazoo then you are correct about if she wanted to do more performance wise. We didn't know that until we could see his pedigree.


Id be interested in seeing that mare info. Link? Were those embryos actually from her being bred to him, or was she a surrogate mare, used in embryo transfer?
Lots of cutting horses, where the mare is kept in competition,, still produce offspring, via embryo transfer.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Working on the ranch with, is an entirely different thing, as already started, then breeding for re sale. All you need for that, is a good mind, no hypp and decent conformation


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

Any other names that could be of help?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

PunchnMe said:


> Hmmmm. Doc bar. There is a sugar bar and a lot more Bars. Also a big part of my horses family.
> I have a book on them all lol. If I can find it again i bet I can find some peppy something. Now I KNOW there is a peppy on a the pedigree on a page...


I have the entire AQHA legends series,so if you want any horse looked up, easy to do
AQHA itself was founded on short sprint running horses, thus the name quarter horse. Some were registered TBs and others predated any registry, and were just fast 'sprint horses'
Go back into Warmblood history and you will find some draft. All breeds evolved over time, through selective breeding. As that happened, family lines within those breeds became more specific. So, looking back, when some horses did 'everything', really is not relevant today

Actually,, Mr Impressive was a son of Impressive that had a good performance record, as well as Halter

In fact, Smilie is not one of my working bred mares per say, and I showed her in those 'all around type classes. I bought her mom as a yearling-an AQHA mare by Kilomax and out of a Mr Impressive mare. 
Her sire is our Mighty Bright bred Appaloosa stallion.
She is a great mover, I have chased cows with her, shown her successfully in western pl, trail, HUS, halter , ridden many trail miles with her, but is is no where near as cowy, quick as my Peppy San bred mare was
That peppy San mare, on the other hand, could win western pl at open shows, besides the reining, games, ect, because she was broke, but I never entered her in rail classes at ApHC breed shows. She won regional ApHC high point awards in cattle, reining, western riding , trail and games.

Ok, there is my confession- Smilie has some Impressive breeding (hypp neg/neg, but even if I bred her to a champion working cowhorse or reiner, I doubt any serious cowhorse or reiner would be interested in that offspring, even though she has ROMS in western pl, trail, halter, HUS, plus awards as hi point jr performance horse.
On the other hand, I had people, who show in western pl, trail, HUS, showmanship, halter, beg me to breed her, and they would buy the foal


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> There was an Impressive bred brood mare that sold for $60,000 with two embyos from crossing her with Smooth As a Cat. He's up there as for Cutting names. They must expect that those babies will be able to do something. Didn't TwoEyedJack do well both halter and performance and his get even better? I understand that that isn't the normal road to go down when looking for a top performance horse but get further away from the halter blood and add in enough performance blood and there could be a few out there with pretty good standing in the points dept for performance. The OP simply mentioned breeding an Impressive bred stallion to PSB bred mare. Many when they say they have an Impressive bred aren't looking at large percentage of him in the bloodline at this point in breeding history. She's wanting something to work on a ranch with. She could get that but considering that colt is halter bred up the wazoo then you are correct about if she wanted to do more performance wise. We didn't know that until we could see his pedigree.



Horses back more then the first, or at most, second generation, don't mean much to serious performance people.
You know, ads that state some famous sire is on that 'horse's papers' Meaningless! So, if that Impressive breeding is way back, why even mention it, esp if any HYpp link has been tested? All horses have some origin!


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

Smilie said:


> PunchnMe said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmmm. Doc bar. There is a sugar bar and a lot more Bars. Also a big part of my horses family.
> ...


Ok, I'll agree about the foal. That history on your horse is awesome, and I'm a little shocked. Lol. I don't know [/italics=that much=/italics] about my horse. Lol i wish i had all the legend books... only have the 2nd.


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

Right, now I remember, Badger. From second book.


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## Catag94 (Dec 31, 2017)

My colt is N/H and of course will be gelded. His site is listed As N/N where he is standing. My colt's dam, as can be seen in AllBreeds, is N/H so she obviously passed that on to this guy. Breeding this colt was never in consideration but the I was truly
Interested in the thoughts/experiences of those on the board on the topic. 
That said, I would be interested in a granddaughter of PSB if anyone has one to offer. In my experience the best cow horse have PSB somewhere in there blood.


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

Funny. I wonder if my horse has a hint. He was a barrel racer but is retired. He has taken a huge interest in the cows across the road and acts like a guard, laying in the bale he pulled apart and watching them.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Smilie said:


> Thanks for the update. Positive step forward. *Now, if they would only ban all hypp positive horses and not just homozygous from registration!*
> Hypp is an autosomal dominant trait, thus, unlike recessive traits, where there are carriers, can't be avoided by testing for any carrier state, thus not breeding two carriers together, like dealing with HERDA
> I do not think carriers or recessive traits should be denied papers, but that they should be tested, to avoid breeding two carriers together, thus have clinical disease possible


This argument always drives me nuts. How easy would it be to rid the registered quarter horses of the disease? I know it would take a few years to get there but wouldn't it be great? 

I'm not sure how you would rid the stock horses of the disease though unless there were some sort of rule that they had to be tested and then castrated if they were HH or NH...? Or maybe they'd clear out by attrition?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Smilie said:


> It has been a few years since I was an AQHA member, having used that cross on some of my Appaloosas.
> Far as I know,hypp testing is not mandatory on Impressive bred horses, but if the owner decides to test, then the hypp status is on those papers.
> Otherwise, there is a sort of disclaimer, that the horse is from a line known to carry hypp.
> Has that changed?


Yes, it's changed. If your horse has Impressive in his pedigree, then you're required to test Unless both parents have already tested N/N. Mort's papers say HYPP N/N right on the back, right above the markings section. 

"From their site: "Testing for HYPP has been mandatory in any horse with Impressive in the pedigree for many years, though there has been no restriction on the breeding of positive or carrier horses." "In 1996, AQHA designated HYPP a genetic defect and undesirable trait. Two years later, the Association added that all Impressive-descendent foals born after January 1, 1998, were required to be tested for the disease and parentage verified for registration, with the results placed on the registration certificate."


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, I have attended numerous horse breeder conferences over the years, starting right when the vet who first linked Impressive to this Sodium channel defect, presented one of the first talks on what is now called HYPP
The problem remains, that a registry depends, is guided by membership, and potential back lash when the interests of a large group is threatened
Many big halter breeding programs, are based on HYPP positive horses, partly because, even before the defect was recognized, judges were inadvertently rewarding these hroses,because the muscle mass, rewarded in halter was facilitated by the fact that hypp pos horses have muscles that are constantly twitching more then normal, thus more developed

Not too much protest in eliminating HYPP pos/pos, as lets face it, not too many of those exist outside of research facilities, being severely affected
Not so, far as N/H hypp horses.
So, the excuse by AQHA at first was, to give those halter horse breeders time to change their breeding programs, but the question becomes-how much time????

In a way, can't blame AQHA for treading carefully , after the law suit they lost against breeders who fought the decision that only one foal per mare per year, could be registered
For those not familiar, once embryo transfer became reality, several embryos were flushed for performance winning mares(cutting mares, I believe), and implanted in surrogate mares, with the understanding that only one of those foals could be registered each year 

Well, all those foals were equally well bred, so the breeders took AQHA to court, AQHA lost and it cost big bucks

Therefore, until the general membership has the power and guts to stand up to those halter breeders, who have their breeding programs founded on hypp pos/neg horses, nothing will change
Sorry for the novel, but a pet peeve of mine!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

*"So, the excuse by AQHA at first was, to give those halter horse breeders time to change their breeding programs, but the question becomes-how much time????"*


****...


Apparently they need over 20 years!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I knew there was a reason I love looking at pics of Smilie! I'm a sucker for Doc Bar. I'll have to find where I saw that. I think it was on the sale pages for one of the big sales. Let me look. Peppy San Badger was cutting.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

For interest sake, here is Mr Impressive
Smilie is hypp negative I tested her dam,, whose only link to Impressive was Mr Impressive

Kansas Quarter Horse Association


Here is her sire as a jr horse. Must excuse the fashion , as that was almost 30 years ago!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I just assumed the embryos were from a collection done on this mare but may well be mistaken. Here is the listing from the 2017 Preferred breeders sale.

Consigned by Isbell Quarter Horses, the 2005 sorrel mare sold with two Smooth As A Cat embryos.

Mr Impressive is really impressive looking.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I guess if I am going to post Smilie's family pictures,I should post her dam also!

Since her dam was AQHA,I did not show her, except once, at an open light hrose show, since hubby had all our broke Appaloosas on a pack trip, but I did ride her before putting her into the broodmare band.
It was a policy of mine, that all the mares we used, not just the stallions, were tested under saddle.
Mis Maxed was very sensible, and this picture is from when she was three, and I took her on a light horse ride, which was more challenging then I had planned for ahrose that was only three. long loop with lots of climbing and bog holes


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

O.m.l. I did NOT know there was a KQHA... I am AQHYA and I live in K.... wierd.....


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> I just assumed the embryos were from a collection done on this mare but may well be mistaken. Here is the listing from the 2017 Preferred breeders sale.
> 
> Consigned by Isbell Quarter Horses, the 2005 sorrel mare sold with two Smooth As A Cat embryos.
> 
> Mr Impressive is really impressive looking.


To me, since she has two embryos, sounds like she was a surrogate mare, with two embryos implanted, And then , I think, one would be pinched off, if they both took.
I think if she was just bred to the stallion, she would have just been advertised as preg checked in foal to him.

Anyway, that is how I would read that info.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Was that mare, magic with Moves? If so, not Impressive bred

Magic With Moves Quarter Horse
She sold with two embryos by Metallic Cat for 2018. That means she will be bred to him,in 2018, and two embryos flushed, to be put into recipient mares
She sold for $64,000

Could not find a link or the horse.Oh well, was just an exercise in curiosity!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

this colt has just as much impressive as he has Skipper W lines LOTS of skipper! So very athletic and built like a tank? do you have pictures of the colt in question?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I;m not even sure as to what colt we are talking about anymore!
Can we see the pedigree, posted here, of both horses in question, as at the moment I for one, don't know even know as to what breeding (immediate , ie sire and dam of both, and perhaps second generation
Any yes, HERDA and HYPP are not one and the same, far as mode of inheritance, so I also would have no problem, testing both mare and stallion, and making sure not both are carriers of HERDA, and if not,no worries if only one is a carrier,because HERDA is a recessive genetic defect, meaning carriers (one copy of defect ) are completely normal
Not so with HYPP, if it is passed on, by only one parent, thus an offspring only has one copy of the defect, because it is a dominant defect, will be expressed


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

"Several impressive broodmares walked through the sale ring Saturday, but Hip No. 5035 stood above the rest when she sold for $60,000 to Ty Smith. Consigned by Isbell Quarter Horses, the 2005 sorrel mare sold with two Smooth As A Cat embryos." And now looking at it I see another my bad. Old eyes. I read the lower case i as an uppercase I. I had typed in Impressive bred and performance and that is what came up. It was off quartehorsenews.com Dec 2017. With 10years of moderating a fertility website and mentoring couples with infertility issues I always see IVF where extras are frozen for future cycles.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

This is the OPs colt that the thread was started for. Er Kaylees Star Quarter Horse
For reference here are the first two posts from OP:
"*Impressive/Peppy San Badger combinations* Curious if anyone has had any experience with horses out of Little Peppy lines x Impressive lines. Assuming one can avoid HYPP and HERDA it seems there may be someone who has ran across this. I am anxious to hear what experiences may be. Thanks. 
"
"I ask because I just acquired a beautiful 2yo colt that comes from both Impressive and Coolest on both sides. His temperament is awesome and he is smart. I just sent him to be started to see if he will
make an riding horse for the ranch. We shall see. He is such a pleasure to work with that I am optimistic. And, his is built so well that I was wondering about the possibility of later breeding him to a Little Peppy mare. Please feel free to educate me I welcome any advice."


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I totally missed the second part of the first post but there was an edit so I may have read and by the time I came back to answer the HYPP/Herda part was added or I just missed it first read through. I tend to get wound up over threads that end up bashing Impressive.

I see Obvious Conclusion in the mix for this colt and have to wonder if they are from my old stomping grounds. My three mares were boarded where he was during his career as a breeding stallion. That was another nice looking horse that moved like a dream but was sidelined by injury. I always wondered (after the fact and I had moved and HYPP had come out) if it was injury that was predisposed because of genetics.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

QtrBel said:


> *I totally missed the second part of the first post* but there was an edit so I may have read and by the time I came back to answer the HYPP/Herda part was added or I just missed it first read through. I tend to get wound up over threads that end up bashing Impressive.
> 
> I see Obvious Conclusion in the mix for this colt and have to wonder if they are from my old stomping grounds. My three mares were boarded where he was during his career as a breeding stallion. That was another nice looking horse that moved like a dream but was sidelined by injury. I always wondered (after the fact and I had moved and HYPP had come out) if it was injury that was predisposed because of genetics.


Not acceptable! I've been counting on you to keep ME straight in this thread!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Farmpony I usually read, reread and then reread again before replying to make sure I get the important info. One just sees so many forums involving horses with threads that bash Impressive. Both because of HYPP and because they don't have anything nice to say about their minds. With the exception of my palominos (who mentally matured about 2 years later than the rest - maybe it's a blonde thing:confused_color: ) every horse with Impressive has also had an impressive (couldn't resist) mind and attitude with a great work ethic. Granted there are other lines mixed in but I have spent time with Impressive close up and they were the same.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> "Several impressive broodmares walked through the sale ring Saturday, but Hip No. 5035 stood above the rest when she sold for $60,000 to Ty Smith. Consigned by Isbell Quarter Horses, the 2005 sorrel mare sold with two Smooth As A Cat embryos." And now looking at it I see another my bad. Old eyes. I read the lower case i as an uppercase I. I had typed in Impressive bred and performance and that is what came up. It was off quartehorsenews.com Dec 2017. With 10years of moderating a fertility website and mentoring couples with infertility issues I always see IVF where extras are frozen for future cycles.


Yea, that is what came up for me also, when googling, impressive broodmares, used as an adjective and not as the Bloodline!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> Farmpony I usually read, reread and then reread again before replying to make sure I get the important info. One just sees so many forums involving horses with threads that bash Impressive. Both because of HYPP and because they don't have anything nice to say about their minds. With the exception of my palominos (who mentally matured about 2 years later than the rest - maybe it's a blonde thing:confused_color: ) every horse with Impressive has also had an impressive (couldn't resist) mind and attitude with a great work ethic. Granted there are other lines mixed in but I have spent time with Impressive close up and they were the same.



Nothing wrong with HYPP negative Impressive bred horses, but because of HYPP and many people not understanding mode of inheritance, some just black list all IMpressive bred horses.
I do still believe though, through years of breeding, and when I first started breeding to halter hroses, as they were 'pretty', that if you get serious in any discipline, breeding like to like, with proven performance top and bottom, is the way to go
Certainly, you see that in reiners and working cowhorses. I still have friends in those activities, and I know not one that would breed to a halter horse breeding towards some cowhorse, reining or cutting futurity
On the other hand, you will still see many pleasure hroses bred that way, as specific pleasure breeding is still a lot'younger'
That is not to say that some of these halter crosses don't make good riding horses
On the other hand, there are World Champion halter hroses that have never seen a saddle, thus never had their mind tested under work.
Way back when, I bred to one of those-an Appaloosa son of World Champion halter horse, Crimson War. Lots of ability, good looking sucker, in that colt who resulted form that breeding, 'but no brains home.
If you rode the snot out of him, he could win, but other times, he was very unpredictable. He produced the same, so I gelded him after that first colt crop
I should see as to how Crimson War was bred

Well, seems he was more running bred, and I bred him to an AQHA Go Man Go mare!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I kind of wonder if the halter world won't start evolving again now that the performance halter classes have gotten so big. I mean - comparing Impressive to Halter horses now - he really wasn't all that bad. It was his babies that carried the genetic mutation that were bulked up monsters and then I'm sure horses have had some helpful additives put in their feed to bulk them up.


I actually don't understand halter classes now. It used to be that you were judging conformation for breeding purposes as far as the horse... I mean, I can't remember... was it Old Sorrel? probably not - maybe The Old Man? Who was on his way to a show and the guy ended up cleaning him up by scraping the dirt off with an old piece of glass before putting him in the halter class? Anyway, I just know that it used to be that people would breed for a specimen that was conformational-ly correct AND could perform....


I've always been a fan of the older style QHs anyway. I think that's why I like the Impressives. 


I went back to the foundation breed with my newest addition... I know it's not what's "Cool" in the show ring but I'm really happy with him...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, the genetic mutation that became HYPP did originate when Impressive was conceived, as all hypp pos horse trace back to him
But you are correct that Impressive lived in the era where halter itself was used as a class to identify future athletic potencial under saddle, and Three bars is tight up there in his immediate pedigree
I used to also have a real problem with halter, when it became, at upper end, an entity onto itself, with those World champion halter horses never seeing a saddle, and even if they had decent conformation, form to function, the way halter horses are pushed towards early maturity, precludes longevity of soundness.

Since many halter horses became so 'specialized'never ridden, traits were bred in, that were counter productive, far as a riding horse (AQHA-too bunchy muscles, wide chest, where a spin would be difficult, too small feet, ect etc, plus the minds themselves were not tested
Stock horses were not the only breeds to suffer from this type of 'selection'The tea cup muzzles and extreme dish,developed in Arabian halter horses

Even horses are not the only ones to suffer, when traits are selected that are never tested under work. The german Shepard, with extreme slope to hind end, with working ability left behind, so that the RCMP had to import German Shepards from Germany, for awhile, to get working dogs Just a few examples.

So, unfortunately, at upper end now, halter, like any other class has become very specialized and no longer serves the original purpose of that class

I used to have a real problem with that fact, when I first started to breed hroses.
I thus complained to a reining trainer, that I was taking a clinic with.
He told me, why I worried as to where halter has gone, and it would never affect me if I bred to performance horses. He went on to say, if people really into halter, just want to lead them and feed them, that is their right. I had a problem accepting that fact at first, but it also started me down the path of breeding like to like.
It is also why I became involved with the Alberta Horse improvement program, as it was a conformation evaluation of 'from to function, with a written score from all three judges, with one being an equine vet
Final score was based on minor and major faults, of hind limbs, front limbs , all over balance and movement
Since there was government money up ($500 for highest score, if 10 horses in the class ),some halter people brought horses that has been winning all year at halter on the ApHC circuit. Quite often, some of those hroses scored very poorly.
Instead of those halter breeders then perhaps sitting back and evaluating as to why their horses scored so poorly, they just stopped coming, saying you could not take hroses apart like that, and that the program did not work

Yet, European buyers, familiar with a scoring system, bought horses that scored well at Horse Improvement, as it gave them confidence

Well, there is my tirade on modern halter at upper end. I say upper end, as at regional hows, one can still do well at halter, on ahorse also shown under saddle, in those events I mentioned (western pl, trail, eq HUS ) Smilie was such ahrose, but I know darn well, if shown against a world champion halter horses, she would get the gate!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

@Smilie - Sorry, I should have been more clear when I typed that. I know Impressive was the starting point of the disease, When I said Impressives babies... I meant - the carriers showed extra muscle that became the desired trait of the AQHA halter horse. And of course the offspring were where we saw the signs and symptoms. I was meaning to say that he was a good looking, well built horse that actually was able to move and but he was not arnold schwartzenhorse. He looked more like a riding horse and was even raced for a while, although he was retired because of his foot issues.....


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Back to your question, as to will halter go back to what it was, with the introduction of performance halter, and the answer, my opinion, is no

It is just another class added, for those that want to see a horse shown at halter also ridden
Yearling lunge line was also introduced, for much of the same reason-giving a young performance horse a place to show, before he is of riding age, without needing to go up against purely halter breed young horses.

Those who want western pl to go back to more as to what it was, versus specialized as it is today, now have Ranch hrose pl.
Foundation people, in Appaloosa shows, now have foundation halter classes, and so on and so on.


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