# OTTB trained as a cart horse?



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

So, I've had my OTTB for a few months now, and it's to the point where I'm ready to start cantering him under saddle. The way I approach it is to teach him the voice cues while lunging and then apply it in the saddle. Usually it doesn't take very long, he picked up trotting in three sessions. The only problem is for my life (and the life of my trainer/barn manager) he will NOT canter from the ground. Occasionally he'll pick it up, but after two or three strides he seems to realize he's cantering and drops right back in to a trot. We actually had a crowd gathered around the round pen, and the consensus was that his stride, his reluctance/confusion about cantering and the way he carried his head resembled that of a cart horse. So my question is, even though he's a registered race horse with a lengthy record (I've looked up some of his videos from the track) could he have been trained to pull a cart? What benefit would there be in training a track horse to drive? I know every trainer is different, but I've honestly never heard of something like this in all of my research on OTTB's....

Oh, and I eventually decided to try and put a saddle on his back and lunge him in full tack...sure enough, he charged forward in to a canter as soon as I asked! But he still won't canter without a saddle......

As soon as he's able to lunge again (currently he's ooc due to a kicking injury on his hock) I'll put up a video for some feedback.


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## harryhoudini (Jun 6, 2009)

Just an thought - if your horse isn't performing extremely reliably undersaddle, IMO it's a mistake to switch them to driving. Driving is about 100 times more dangerous than riding - in order to make a sucessful driving horse, he will need to respond to your cues 100% of the time, both on the ground (tackless) and undersaddle. I wouldn't use his reluctance to canter as a cue to make him a driving horse.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Thats not what i'm saying at all--I actually have no plans on driving him whatsoever. I'm just asking if there would be a logical reason why he would have been trained to drive, since he was a racehorse. Like I said, under saddle he canters on cue....but with just a line and a lunge whip, he refuses to pick up a canter and seems confused as to why I want him to....this is not just me being in experienced with lunging, I've had a professional trainer attempt it and he does the same thing. We had observers comment that he looked/carried himself like a cart horse when he was trotting. We're currently exploring the 'pain' option as an explanation for his reluctance, but that doesn't explain why he'll canter with a saddle on....

So I just want some opinions as to whether his previous training as a cart horse is a possibility or not.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

harryhoudini said:


> Just an thought - if your horse isn't performing extremely reliably undersaddle, IMO it's a mistake to switch them to driving. Driving is about 100 times more dangerous than riding - in order to make a sucessful driving horse, he will need to respond to your cues 100% of the time, both on the ground (tackless) and undersaddle. I wouldn't use his reluctance to canter as a cue to make him a driving horse.


 this is untrue. we have many horses that drive that cannot be ridden. riding and driving are completely different. 


and to the OP- most likely he was not trained to cart. driving uses different muscles than the TB horses use when they race. even our pacers VS our trotters have different muscles built on them because of their gait. also the TB racehorses (when racing, not OT) are much too high strung to be carting, and their focus needs to be on racing.


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

Would he be in pain going around on the lunge? Would he have a sore back? Just questions!


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

That doesn't really make sense....he'll canter with a saddle on, but not from the ground, so if he's in pain, wouldn't the saddle weight just add to it and he would be even more reluctant to canter?

His leg is almost healed, he might be lunge line ready by next week so I'll be able to post a video for everyone.


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

My driving horses move just like a riding horse. A proper driving horse SHOULD  I highly highly doubt he was trained to drive for the reasons other posters have said.


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

outof curiosity what is a ottb


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Its short for off-the-track-Thoroughbred....an ex racehorse.


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> That doesn't really make sense....he'll canter with a saddle on, but not from the ground, so if he's in pain, wouldn't the saddle weight just add to it and he would be even more reluctant to canter?
> 
> His leg is almost healed, he might be lunge line ready by next week so I'll be able to post a video for everyone.


Yes I Know But On The Lunge Hes On A Circle So It Might Hurt On A Circle?
My Friends Horse Was Lame On The Lunge For 2 Months and They Couldnt Figure Out Why And It Turns Out He Put His Back, Pelvis And Hip Out Because He Must Have Had A Bad Fall In The Field. Has Your Horse Had A Bad Fall? Maybe you Should Get The Vet Or Physio Out Just To Rule Out Everything Out


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Well I had the massage therapist/chiropractor out yesterday, and she said that he is physically is in good condition---He had a spot on his shoulder (not related to saddle fit) of sore muscles, and a spot on his neck of something (it was not muscle, but it was a hard knot, and every time we pushed on it, he would yawn and relax and drop his head almost to the ground). So he is in perfect riding condition as far as his back is concerned.

No recent bad falls that I know of, the barn managers call when they find any kind of injury, and someone is always around to monitor the horses. As for when he was on the track....I have nothing in vet records or history of injury.


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

Aw right ok.


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

oh right,so he,s not a ottt then, off-the track -thoroubred trotter, no


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

No he was raced with a jockey


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

jimmy said:


> oh right,so he,s not a ottt then, off-the track -thoroubred trotter, no


huh? what the heck is an off track TB trotter?


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

its a sport


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

xLaurenOscarx said:


> its a sport


im asking what an off track TB trotter is. thats not a sport. TBs in racing do not trot


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## jimmy (Aug 26, 2009)

but you do get thoruogh bred trotters


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

there is a sport were the horses just trot. they're not allowed any faster


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

xLaurenOscarx said:


> there is a sport were the horses just trot. they're not allowed any faster


those are standardbreds


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

And granted, the DO look a bit like TB's (they should, since the Standardbred was formed from the TB...) I definitely have confirmation that he's 100% racing stock...I even went and found videos of him on the track!


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> And granted, the DO look a bit like TB's (they should, since the Standardbred was formed from the TB...) I definitely have confirmation that he's 100% racing stock...I even went and found videos of him on the track!


 the STB comes from more than just the TB. in the beginning there were only trotters. pacers were actually formed from trotters who went sore, they would begin to pace. so they were trained and bred then. thats how you know a sound pacer, they will trot. you should see my pacing mare warm up, she looks like a goof out there trotting because she bounces all over. i need a video of it, its so light and bouncy lol.


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## hiwaythreetwenty (Oct 2, 2009)

In response to the OTTB not cantering when lunged on a circle without a saddle but will with a saddle. Alot of OTTB retraining is mental, you put the saddle on and they will automatically think run but without one they are walked or they may prance while being walked. I walked my mare for days before I put a saddle on her, the first time I put a saddle on her she went into canter/race mode. Try continueing with walking and trotting with and without the saddle on then gradually ask for the canter. I am unsure how long you have had him but it may take a while for the muscles to develop for that type of work.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

I agree somewhat with the last post. Also, sometimes, if you don't think a horse will canter on the lunge... guess what?

He _won't_.

My paint used to do this--I could not, for the life of me, get him to canter in the round pen when I first got him. And when my trainer would go in there, he would run around like a loon toon.

Sometimes it's just the attitude of you. If you know he can do it, and he is not in pain, then there's only one thing left for you to do before he starts taking advantage of this situation--_make_ him canter. You have a whip, use it! Start out with the lightest cue possible, but do NOT be afraid to use what you have. If you always threaten (I'll hit you with this whip! Really, I will! I mean it! Look I'm waving it at you and flicking it at your heels!) but you never come _through_, your horse will very, very quickly learn to disregard and disrespect you.

Good luck!


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Oh, we use it.....I wish I could make a video, but he's at the point now where he just stops at the gate and tries to get out, so the round pen is useless. I'm going out to the barn today, so I'll record us in the arena on a line.

But in general, my attitude didn't change from the first time I tried to get him to canter and expected him to charge forward because he responded so well to the whip, to when I put a saddle on him and he actually cantered. Actually, when he cantered full circles, we praised him, etc.


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## hiwaythreetwenty (Oct 2, 2009)

Go to the canter website and click resources, or google retraining the OTTB. Lunging is very difficult for them and alot of their retraining is different then with other horses. You can't expect to use a whip and think that you are going to get it to its job. A racehorses daily life is soo much different then the average horse. my friend just got a OTTB and he has been racing for 8 years, she can walk him around and he is calm and relaxed but when she saddles him he becomes a hotwire. So she now walks him around daily with the saddle to show him that he isn't going to the racetrack but a relaxing walk. I would continue working with him walking and trotting and canter him controlled undersaddle and keep tell him CANTER so that he learns the verbal cue.


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## xLaurenOscarx (Aug 11, 2009)

If I Shorten My Stirrups To Jockeys Length And Stand up Lyk A Jockey Even In Walk Oscar Starts Prancing And Shaking His Head Raring To Go!


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

So I've decided that there was a good chance that the round pen was too small for him to get a good extended canter in.....however as you can see in the first video how he was reluctant to canter and just picked up in to a faster trot. I didn't record the whole session because of my camera memory, just when we switched sides.















We found a spot in his left hip thats slightly raised, and we have the chiro coming back out again to work on him, so we'll see if he improves any more.


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## hiwaythreetwenty (Oct 2, 2009)

I would say you really need to just work on a controlled balanced trot on the lunge. Try to not be just standing in the middle letting him pull you around. Work on walking relaxed in a smaller circle and use your body language (turn your shoulders some almost like you are walking him and gradually let him out. Then ask for a nice relaxed trot. He is not balanced enough on the circle trotting to even think about asking for a canter. Give him time and do things slow and steady.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

He needs a MUCH bigger circle then what he is on--that is why he's not balanced.


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## hiwaythreetwenty (Oct 2, 2009)

He is behaving like a typical OTTB. He has no concept of lunging or circles. Yes a larger circle would help his balance but a racehorse isn't even balance on a racetrack circle they have no concept of bend hence why it was more difficult going to the left then the right (tracks go to the right) Calm, control, patience,consistency, and small sessions will go a long way. Don't rush the canter work on bending him and balancing him on the circle. TB also tend to become a little frustrated when you start asking to much, they give a lot of try but you are changing every bit of training they have had their entire life. Most racehorses have never been lunged even when trained someone walks them around with rider on their back then away they go. They have been taught nothing but run. I have trained different OTTB and it sounds odd but a small controlled circle to teach him what is expected and less room for him to go trotting around like a crazy man will give you more control and show him what he is suppose to do.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

The reason that we have him in a smaller circle is because he is constantly pulling the line out so he can get out of the reach of the lunge whip and then turn out like he does in the third video. As it is shes 
9thats not me, i'm holding the camera) leaning back so he doesn't yank her around more than he already is.

I personally think he doesn't like the cone in the first and second video, because he did do a little better out in between the barrels (the third video) and he always wants to go over in front of the gate. He has a chiro and a farrier appointment today, so now work, but I'll take another video tomorrow.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

hiwaythreetwenty said:


> Yes a larger circle would help his balance but a racehorse isn't even balance on a racetrack circle they have no concept of bend hence why it was more difficult going to the left then the right (tracks go to the right)


 huh? what do you mean tracks go to the right? if you are talking about the direction of the racing, they go counter clockwise, therefore all turns are made to the left.


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## hiwaythreetwenty (Oct 2, 2009)

Yes I meant the left and was trying to say they struggle going to the right - I just got ahead of my typing and had to hurry and run after I posted so I didn't get a chance to proof read. Sorry.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

hiwaythreetwenty said:


> Yes I meant the left and was trying to say they struggle going to the right - I just got ahead of my typing and had to hurry and run after I posted so I didn't get a chance to proof read. Sorry.


 thats ok, i was just confused. you dont know how long i sat here thinking i was wrong lol.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

justsambam08 said:


> *The reason that we have him in a smaller circle is because he is constantly pulling the line out so he can get out of the reach of the lunge whip and then turn out like he does in the third video.* As it is shes
> 9thats not me, i'm holding the camera) leaning back so he doesn't yank her around more than he already is.
> 
> I personally think he doesn't like the cone in the first and second video, because he did do a little better out in between the barrels (the third video) and he always wants to go over in front of the gate. He has a chiro and a farrier appointment today, so now work, but I'll take another video tomorrow.



Then he clearly needs to be taught how to lunge, not just be chased in a circle.

There is nothing wrong with this horse other then TBs are taught to extend and reach and run straight, and he is being pulled around in a 10m circle and THAT can tighten muscles and CAUSE back and body pain.

Teach him to lunge. For real. THEN work on the canter.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> Then he clearly needs to be taught how to lunge, not just be chased in a circle. He's not afraid of the lunge whip, I can tap him with it and he doesn't even flinch.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with this horse other then TBs are taught to extend and reach and run straight, and he is being pulled around in a 10m circle and THAT can tighten muscles and CAUSE back and body pain. That is not true at all, I've been to the track he was raced on, and they have a round pen and lunge horses all the time. Granted its considerably bigger than our round pen, but he does know/should know how to do it.
> 
> Teach him to lunge. For real. THEN work on the canter. I'm not working on the canter really, I'm working on the voice cue. Other than having a strong head when he moves from the trot to a canter, he canters very well.



Thanks for everyones input, I figured out that he wasn't cantering because he needs body cues.....in his case, if I stand up in the saddle and lean slightly forward, he transitions perfectly.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

That's wonderful that he's not afraid with the lunge whip. That doesn't mean he knows how to lunge correctly--if he did, he wouldn't be pulling the rope out of hands and swinging his back end around. (Hint: He needs more space.)

I've worked on race tracks, with PLENTY of OTTBs, and with numerous jockeys. Of COURSE they have a round pen, but the horse's MAIN JOB is to run, extended, on the track. That's what his muscles are strengthened to do. Running around in a round pen (that is much bigger then your circle) a few times a month is not going to build the same muscle as racing a mile or so on the track at an extended canter or any breeze work.

...Um, yes you are. You said you couldn't get him to canter on the line. That's working on the canter, correct? He can't canter on that circle until he gets a bigger circle to work with. And he can't do THAT until he learns some lunging manners.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I think part of his real problem (or his only real problem, everything else comes from this) is that he went from working every day for nine years to no work at all in 24/7 turnout for a year, and now he's with me, and I'm somewhere in the middle, and he's pretty confused about what he's doing because I'm trying to mix the new with the old.

The cantering however, was not my problem...I was trying to get him to canter so I could teach him the voice cue. I've seen him canter and his stride is a little long, but thats fine with me. He's controllable and he listens, which was my main concern.....the lunging was never a "must have" for him since he has never been hot under saddle and he doesn't have any issues that we would need to work on, like controlling himself, so I can deal with never lunging him ever again.


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