# Information on how to teach a horse to collect



## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

I was looking for an article like this earlier today! Thanks! (I haven't read it yet though.)


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## RedTree (Jan 20, 2010)

I started reading, its very good thanks for posting 
I have put it in my favourite so i can find it again


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## Carleen (Jun 19, 2009)

Thank you so much for posting this, I guarantee I will be using it with Flash (especially the part about getting the horse to move out on his own). Haven't finished reading it, but am about to do so now!


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

This isn't just about teaching to collect... it's practically how to start your horse from ride number one in order to achieve a soft and responsive ride. I was pleasantly surprised by this gem of information!


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## aspin231 (Mar 20, 2010)

Eolith said:


> This isn't just about teaching to collect... it's practically how to start your horse from ride number one in order to achieve a soft and responsive ride. I was pleasantly surprised by this gem of information!


I agree! When I read it, I was surprised that it was so in depth. Glad you thought so too!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I am speaking from a dressage/english perspective here. I see the article is western based, but there are certain training terms that transcend disciplines.
It seems to me that there is a disconnect between "slow with a headset" and "round and collected." They are not equal. A horse can go around slow with his head down or avoiding the bit, and evading by dropping behind the vertical as shown in most of those pictures throughout the article, and look "pretty" but be functionally strung out and not connected whatsoever tail to nose.
When I set out reading an article about roundness and collection, I am always disheartened when the author starts in about where the head should be right off the bat. Forget the head; it will fall into place when the horse starts to learn to use its back and body correctly. Also, you _want_ to have the horse connected to your hands; you want to feel weight in the reins. You don't want to be supporting the horse's head, but you do want to have that connection, bit to hand. I know this is not possible in the western disciplines, but I get very disheartened when it's suggested to encourage your horse to drop behind the bit.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Yes, reading further into the article I wasn't quite such a fan of the process of putting weight into the reins until the horse dropped its head back. That is a very artificial method. I agree that the horse's head will fall into place when everything else is being done well. It's so important to maintain "play" in the reins, at least with dressage. You don't want them loose and floppy, but not stiff and hard either.

The one rein stops and such were what I was most intrigued by, as well as encouraging your horse to keep a steady rhythmic pace.


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## addyjason (Jul 19, 2010)

Thanks for sharing this very well written article. I learn many things from your post about how to teach horse.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> I am speaking from a dressage/english perspective here. I see the article is western based, but there are certain training terms that transcend disciplines.
> It seems to me that there is a disconnect between "slow with a headset" and "round and collected." They are not equal. A horse can go around slow with his head down or avoiding the bit, and evading by dropping behind the vertical as shown in most of those pictures throughout the article, and look "pretty" but be functionally strung out and not connected whatsoever tail to nose.
> When I set out reading an article about roundness and collection, I am always disheartened when the author starts in about where the head should be right off the bat. Forget the head; it will fall into place when the horse starts to learn to use its back and body correctly. Also, you _want_ to have the horse connected to your hands; you want to feel weight in the reins. You don't want to be supporting the horse's head, but you do want to have that connection, bit to hand. I know this is not possible in the western disciplines, but I get very disheartened when it's suggested to encourage your horse to drop behind the bit.


I totaly agree!!!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

JustDressageIt said:


> I am speaking from a dressage/english perspective here. I see the article is western based, but there are certain training terms that transcend disciplines.
> It seems to me that there is a disconnect between "slow with a headset" and "round and collected." They are not equal. A horse can go around slow with his head down or avoiding the bit, and evading by dropping behind the vertical as shown in most of those pictures throughout the article, and look "pretty" but be functionally strung out and not connected whatsoever tail to nose...You don't want to be supporting the horse's head, but you do want to have that connection, bit to hand. I know this is not possible in the western disciplines, but I get very disheartened when it's suggested to encourage your horse to drop behind the bit.


I disagree. There is only one picture in the article of a horse in motion:










That does not look to me like a horse that is "functionally strung out and not connected whatsoever tail to nose". It isn't a dressage frame, but most western riders don't use 'collection' to mean 'collected for dressage'.

The Random House Dictionary defines collection as "something that is collected; a group of objects or an amount of material accumulated in one location, esp. for some purpose or as a result of some process". Applied to riding a horse, it would mean all the parts of the horse are acting together in support of the rider's purpose.

I may not know how 'strung out' looks, but I know how it feels from the back of a horse - my mare will cheerfully drag herself around with her front legs at the trot, and the only reason her hind legs aren't left behind in the dust is because they are physically attached to her. She doesn't move like that alone, only with a rider - so my goal has been to teach her to stop relying on her front legs to balance me, and engage her rear legs.

As an added challenge, I ride her without a bit, and I don't want to ride her bitless by substituting the halter for the bit. She will never be 'on the bit, and I don't want her 'on the bridle'. I want her moving in a coordinated, balanced manner because she WANTS to move like that. As the article says, "Horses seek comfort by nature. Since he does not know how long he will have to trot, eventually he will realize that it may be best to slow down and conserve his energy. This is where the lesson is: when he decides this on his own without any help from you."

So I'll ask her to trot, and either post or use a two point position - after all, I can't invite her to lift her back if I bounce down on top of it in my typical stiff as a board sitting bounce. She'll start off strung out and hollow backed, but that gets tiring...and THEN she'll slow down a little, lift her back, engage the rear and lower her head. I'm a pretty green rider myself, but I'm beginning to feel when her back lifts. We'll go a little bit like that, then I'll slow her and praise her - but her main reward comes from feeling more comfortable trotting with all her legs.

I'm not smart enough about riding to know if this is correct, but it seems to be working. She is shifting into a balanced position sooner and holding it longer, so I think she is getting the idea.

I think it was an error for the author to include this picture at the start:










The western riders I know have no interest in getting their horse into that position. We want our horses to be flexible and soft at the neck, and to turn with her entire body and not just the front 18 inches, but the goal is an agile horse, not a dressage frame.

My mare is very stiff laterally (even without me - she can't even lie down and roll without looking like a board), so we are working on circles. Mia doesn't like circles - she prefers squares, or maybe hexagons on a good day! A local trainer had told me some of the same exercises mentioned in the article as a way of loosening her up and teaching her how bend her body and support a turn with all her parts - a 'collection' of parts dedicated to turning, if you will.

When my mare (Arabian) lifts her back in a trot, or turns a real circle for however many degrees she can sustain it, her head is down. The neck is almost level with her back. I can't see her from the side, but based on her shadow, I'd guess she looks like the horse in the top photo.

Our gelding (1/4 Appy, 3/4 Arabian) is very agile, and always moves in a balanced and engaged manner. I wish I could claim it was me, but I obviously have nothing to do with it. His rear legs are supplying most of the power, and he'll turn on a dime. And his neck is below horizontal, with his head at about a 45 deg angle.

As long as he moves balanced and coordinated, I don't care what he does with his head. And while we ride him with a snaffle bit, we rarely have direct contact with the bit. He rides best with just a little slack. 

The goal of dressage is dressage. Using my definition of collected, a dressage horse must be collected, but a collected horse doesn't have to be doing dressage. The word is used in dressage with a more restricted meaning than is meant by many western riders.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

bsms said:


> I disagree. There is only one picture in the article of a horse in motion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry but the first horse is dragging itself round with its front end, back end is doing very little and the horse is very clearly not comfortable.

As for the second picture and the part in bold, The point we were trying to make is that that the head set is the last thing to come, only when everything else is correct can you get that headset.
Have you ever ridden a real dressage horse? I've ridden a Grand prix horse and let me tell you that they don't get to that level without being extremely flexible. Concidering that at walk, trot and canter one can push the hind end in or out, put the shoulders on a separate track to the hind end all with the mere whisper of a leg aid, Canter a 5m circle, or even a pirouette. YOu can manipulate the shoulders and hind end separately, or wrap them round your leg completely. Sitting on one of those horses is like sitting on an eel, they are so flexible through the body.

You seem to have the misconception that dressage horses are stiff.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

faye said:


> Sorry but the first horse is dragging itself round with its front end, back end is doing very little and the horse is very clearly not comfortable.
> 
> As for the second picture and the part in bold, The point we were trying to make is that that the head set is the last thing to come, only when everything else is correct can you get that headset.
> Have you ever ridden a real dressage horse?...You seem to have the misconception that dressage horses are stiff.


1 - What is it in the first picture that tells you the horse is not comfortable or dragging itself around with the front end? I'm not being argumentative, but I'm also not seeing the horse drag itself by the front end. Based on her shadow, that's what my mare starts to look like when she loosens up...and admittedly, she starts any trot stiff as can be. I'm not seeing agitation, discomfort, or lack of balance.

It also looks to me something like my gelding, who is loose, balanced and flexible - no thanks to me. He can turn up his own rear while looking a lot like that...

2 - Have I ridden a real dressage horse? Are you kidding? I've never SEEN a real dressage horse in person! They may have them somewhere in Arizona, but not where I live.

However, nothing I wrote would indicate I think a dressage horse is stiff. My point is that agile and a dressage frame are not interchangeable terms. To quote myself, "a dressage horse must be collected, but a collected horse doesn't have to be doing dressage" - same for agility. A dressage horse must be flexible and agile, but a horse can be flexible and agile without moving in a dressage frame.

A cutting horse must be agile, flexible and balanced, but he doesn't move in a dressage frame. The western riders I've talked to want to adopt some of the principles and training from dressage to help them meet their goals as western riders. That is what I think the article was trying to accomplish. What can someone see and learn about from dressage that will help them and their horses become better western riding teams?

I have no interest in dressage as a sport. I've watched videos of it, but I have no desire to own, train or ride a dressage horse. That is not an insult to dressage, just a statement about my interests. I want to work on my mare's lateral flexibility (she has none) and get her to engage her hind legs while I'm on her back (she does it without a rider just fine). If there is something dressage riders do that will help me attain that, fine. If not, then I'll ignore dressage entirely because I'm not interested in it for its own sake.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

bsms said:


> I disagree. There is only one picture in the article of a horse in motion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Like I said, certain things transcend disciplines.
Collection does not mean slow; it means that the horse lightens up on the forehand, shifts its weight onto the hind end, and its stride shortens. The horse's tempo does not change, the horse does not slow down. 

There are several photos on the site, including these:


















These images both clearly show that the horse is not accepting the rein; they are being asked to evade the bit. This is counterproductive, the horse can't collect and balance. You want a horse to be able to carry themselves round, without your intervention, but you must first get them to accept the bit and seek contact with the bit. Without this critical step, your entire foundation has holes in it. 
The horse in the photo that you quoted in your post shows a horse that is strung out, carrying themselves on the forehand. 

You're correct, horses don't want to be uncomfortable, but they also (by nature) conserve energy, and won't "figure out for themselves" to carry themselves round.
1) being round takes muscle that horses don't have naturally.
2) being round takes a lot of muscle, and that muscle must be properly developed
3) it is MUCH easier to walk/trot/canter around being strung out. Working correctly is HARD until you develop muscle. Do you walk around in proper alignment? When you're sitting down, do you sit with your back straight and shoulders back? It's hard work. Humans have the capibility to KNOW that it's good for them to walk and sit with proper posture, but most people still don't, because it's hard work. 

I bet that your horse lowers its head and slows down, but I would almost put money down that s/he isn't rounding his/her back. It takes a lot of muscle to do that, and a rider to know how to ask and how to develop that muscle. In order for the horse to start properly rounding, they must be working off the hind and start to lighten up on the front end. Things start falling together pretty quickly once you have the basics built up. 
Your other horse may be agile, but a horse can be agile and completely on the forehand. It takes a trained eye to be able to tell if a horse is truly working fron behind, and round. A lot of horses can be delightfully deceiving. 

*Most importantly:*
_"The goal of dressage is dressage"_
No. The goal of dressage is akin to the goal of a ballerina: to work in harmony and to work your body properly. To be engaged throughout the entire body. Dressage transcends disciplines. Dressage is a basis for almost everything you do with a horse, be it reining or jumping. Dressage can be done bareback, in a western saddle, or in a jumping saddle. It is the building blocks on which you can preform almost any discipline. 
It is getting the horse supple and working properly through itself - isn't that the goal of almost any other discipline? 
Training the horse to be supple, round, and responsive...
*Dressage simply means "training." *

There is a misconception that dressage means that you must ride in a black saddle with polo wraps - not true. Dressage means that you and your horse are training to become a team in unison, where you and the horse are connected and working together in harmony.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Collection does not mean slow; it means that the horse lightens up on the forehand, shifts its weight onto the hind end, and its stride shortens."

Perhaps in dressage - but dressage riders haven't copyrighted the word 'collection'. We lesser beings also get to use english words, and to use them consistent with the language. A collection is a group of things with a unifying theme, so it is appropriate for a rider to talk of a collected horse as referring to a horse whose body parts are all working together in a unified manner.

"These images both clearly show that the horse is not accepting the rein; they are being asked to evade the bit. This is counterproductive, the horse can't collect and balance."

Horse pucky. By that standard, no western horse is balanced. Indeed, no bitless horse would be balanced. Yet these unbalanced horses don't fall down, and do their jobs far better than a horse would if in a collected & balanced dressage frame - because there is more to balance that looks. Ballerinas and fullbacks are both balanced, coordinated and in control, but their movements are nothing alike - because they are doing different activities, and move IAW the activity. 

"but I would almost put money down that s/he isn't rounding his/her back. It takes a lot of muscle to do that, and a rider to know how to ask and how to develop that muscle."

She lifts her back, and shifts some of her balance to her rear. I can feel that. I don't need to be a genius, just listen to her.

"Your other horse may be agile, but a horse can be agile and completely on the forehand. It takes a trained eye to be able to tell if a horse is truly working fron behind, and round. A lot of horses can be delightfully deceiving."

The goal of most western riding is agility appropriate for the activity. At speed, no doubt he is on the forehand. No horse is fast if carrying its weight on the rear. Slower...he shifts weight to the rear when he prepares to spin his body around. My goal is like most western riders - not roundness for its own sake, which is worthless to us, but a lightness in the front at appropriate times.

Again, the riders I know are not using the definition of collected that dressage uses, but use it to refer to the body working in harmony for what is trying to be achieved. We are not TRYING to teach upper level dressage movements, because we don't want to compete in dressage.

"No. The goal of dressage is akin to the goal of a ballerina: to work in harmony and to work your body properly."

No. The goal of dressage is dressage. The goal of a ballerina is ballet, and the goal of a fullback is moving the ball forward, and the goal of a cutting horse is...cutting cattle. The collection sought by dressage riders supports participating in advanced dressage, not horse racing, cutting cattle, steeplechase or even trail riding. Dressage is a sport. It is not the end all of riding.

"Dressage transcends disciplines. Dressage is a basis for almost everything you do with a horse, be it reining or jumping."

No. You don't find cutting folks pretending their sport is the end all of riding, because a supple, engaged and cooperative horse is required for cutting cattle. You don't find jumpers claiming their style of riding is critical to all others, although they also need athletic, supple, cooperative horses. Dressage is AN equine sport, not THE equine sport.

"Dressage means that you and your horse are training to become a team in unison, where you and the horse are connected and working together in harmony."

No. If it were, you could give dressage scores to cutting horses, barrel racing horses, polo horses, racehorse...dressage is just ONE of the sports used where teamwork between man and horse is desired.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

"Perhaps in dressage - but dressage riders haven't copyrighted the word 'collection'. We lesser beings also get to use english words, and to use them consistent with the language. A collection is a group of things with a unifying theme, so it is appropriate for a rider to talk of a collected horse as referring to a horse whose body parts are all working together in a unified manner."

Wow. I don't think i have come across someone so salty toward people who do dressage. Like justdressageit said, all it means is "training." Good training is good training no matter what your discipline is. I have a friend in my office who does reining and we exchange training tips all of the time. Doesn't matter that she rides in a western saddle. Did you have a bad experience or something?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

I looked at this site last night and what I see is a sprinkle of dressage terms amid a setting of western based principles and while some dressage will help any discipline the basis for a lot of her comments show she does not really understand what dressage is.

She would have been better off naming her article as Basics for the training of the Western Horse and leaving out any of the half attempts in connecting the term dressage to what she is doing.

Some of the information she is giving out is way off in left field.


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## Arksly (Mar 13, 2010)

bsms said:


> Perhaps in dressage - but dressage riders haven't copyrighted the word 'collection'. We lesser beings also get to use english words, and to use them consistent with the language. A collection is a group of things with a unifying theme, so it is appropriate for a rider to talk of a collected horse as referring to a horse whose body parts are all working together in a unified manner.
> 
> *Collection is basically when the horse is using it's hind end to propel it forward. A horses body parts work together whether or not it's "collected". A horse can be completely on the forehand during a walk, trot or canter by having a four, two or three beat gait.*
> 
> ...


My comments are in bold.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

My two pennies worth - The horse in the first photo (the pally) is tense through its jaw, stiff through its neck and those are not comfy "i'm listening ears" those are "i'm back because I'm uncomfortable ears". now I agree in western you don't want the serious collection needed for dressage but you do want a nice supple relaxed horse and that horse isnt!

Shasta - perhaps you need to go back to basics. All the top cutting horses I've ever watched (and as they are on H&C TV it is only the ones at major major championships) have been using thier hind end properly, not pulling themselves round on their front. It takes time for a horse to shift its weight back which is time cutting horses don't have, so they are already sitting on thier hind end and lifing thier shoulders by the time they get in the arena! it may only be a second but a second with cattle may as well be a lifetime.

The aim of dressage is not dressage - the aim of dressage is to have a well school, responsive horse who is using himself well and powering from behind (the vast majority of thier power is in the muscles of the hind end). Horses move faster when using thier back end to power them rather then thier front.

My ponies all do dressage as it lets me know where they are up to, but they also jump, XC, show, hack out (trail rides). They are obediant, they know what I want from them at all timess.

There have een a few instances where we have been riding on roads and I have used stans dressage training to save both his life and mine. One perticular one where I half passed him into a ditch (probably not a true half pass as we went sideways rather faster then a normal half pass) then asked him to turn on his quaters and jump up a bank, i did this in order to avoid being flattened by an idiot lorry driver, It took me all of 20seconds to get out of the way! If he hadn't been back on his hocks already he would have never have made the jump I asked from him and without his training he would not have reacted the way he did at the speed he did and both of us would have been smushed on the road.

Most TOP showjumpers can do a good level of dressage test. They need the training in order to lengthen or shorten strides, to have the horses back on thier hocks so they can jump the big jumps, To have the agility and obediance needed to change direction quickly in a jump off in a small arena.

Horses do not just figure things out for themselves, they have to be taught


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

"Shasta - perhaps you need to go back to basics. All the top cutting horses I've ever watched (and as they are on H&C TV it is only the ones at major major championships) have been using thier hind end properly, not pulling themselves round on their front. It takes time for a horse to shift its weight back which is time cutting horses don't have, so they are already sitting on thier hind end and lifing thier shoulders by the time they get in the arena! it may only be a second but a second with cattle may as well be a lifetime."

When did I suggest that a horse pulling itself from the front was correct or appropriate? While I'm sure that my friend would LOVE to be a top reigning rider, she's not. She's aiming to get her horse soft, underneath himself and connect just like I do. Im not familiar with the upper-echelons of western riding but the same basic principals in dressage apply to western. I'm not sure where your negative comment came from. I'm a good rider. Certainly not perfect - I have things to learn and work on but I can hold my own pretty well.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

SORRY SHASTA! I got you and BSMS mixed up. That point should be aimed at her not you! in my defence I didnt sleep at all last night! Sorry!!


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

faye said:


> SORRY SHASTA! I got you and BSMS mixed up. That point should be aimed at her not you! in my defence I didnt sleep at all last night! Sorry!!


Oh ok - I was confused there! Perhaps if I learned how to quote other posts instead of copying and pasting it would make things easier. Think I've got it now!


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Soo...

For those of us who did read this article, this conversation is a little confusing. I found things in the article that I think make sense (the lateral flexion and rhythm stuff).

Can anyone post an article that they DO agree with? This would mainly be directed at JDI and Spyder since they dont think this article applies to dressage necessarily...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"The aim of dressage is not dressage - the aim of dressage is to have a well school, responsive horse who is using himself well and powering from behind (the vast majority of thier power is in the muscles of the hind end). Horses move faster when using thier back end to power them rather then thier front."

That would explain why race horses use dressage to win...

No. The aim of dressage is dressage. Lower level dressage teaches and trains and strengthens the horse so it can shift it's weight far enough to the rear to perform upper level dressage. Dressage is a SPORT, and a subcategory of horse riding. It is not invalid or evil, but it is not just "training". If it were just training, then everyone who trains a horse towards any goal is a dressage rider. Barrel racers don't do dressage, and steeplechase riders don't do dressage, and anyone who pretends they do is ignoring dressage.

Why does dressage emphasize shifting weight to the rear? Because it is needed for dressage movements. Race horses power themselves from the rear. Barrel racing horses power themselves from the rear. So do cutting horses. So does my bitless mare. 

This is not dressage:










Nor is this:










Nor here, in a third picture with ears back:











"A horse can go around slow with his head down or avoiding the bit, and evading by dropping behind the vertical as shown in most of those pictures throughout the article, and look "pretty" but be functionally strung out and not connected whatsoever tail to nose." Post 7

"the first horse is dragging itself round with its front end, back end is doing very little and the horse is very clearly not comfortable."

Here is the picture again (and since the original article was a blog post, the author may not have spent a lot of time looking for a picture):










Frankly, the picture isn't big enough to see if the horse " is tense through its jaw, stiff through its neck and those are not comfy "i'm listening ears" those are "i'm back because I'm uncomfortable ears".

Blown up and adjusting for color, the ears are neither pinned nor fully erect. 

Meanwhile, the neck is level, the head at a comfortable angle for the horse to see, the legs have even angles front & rear, tail down but not clenched...I can see my horses in a similar position when moving on their own. 

Now, let's talk about collection ("it means that the horse lightens up on the forehand, shifts its weight onto the hind end, and its stride shortens) as a goal. What is its purpose?

Let's discuss it from an engineering perspective. My mare Mia can generate X power with her hind legs. It can be expressed in the vertical or horizontal. If in the vertical, then it keeps her rear end up with some portion to spare. If she uses all of it in the vertical, it is a buck, unless she collects.

If used in the horizontal, it increases forward motion. If my goal is maximum acceleration and top speed, then I would ideally like 100% of X going into forward motion - but that would leave none supporting her rear. But for maximum speed and acceleration, I want a minimum amount of power supporting her weight, and most of it turning into forward motion. Since most of her powerful hindquarters are providing thrust, the lift (I spent a career in jet fighters) must come from her front legs. The rear is her engine, and the front legs are her 'wings'. Maximum speed and acceleration comes from carrying her weight with her front and letting her engine provide the thrust. 

When do I want to lighten the front end and shift weight to the rear? If I want to be able to arc the front end in a circle while the rear stays still, then I want all of X supporting weight, and the front supplying the arcing power. That will provide the fastest pivot.

In a dressage ring, collection (as you define it) is important (presumably) for dressage events. Remember, dressage is a sport where you perform certain actions. It is NOT harmonious barrel racing, and you won't see a horse cutting cattle in Olympic dressage.

Outside of dressage tests, it has little value. Most people ride horses to move forward, not to spin in an arc around a point. Most equine sports - racing, barrels, campdrafting, etc - rarely need more than a momentary pivot, but that pivot must be followed by acceleration immediately afterward. Most racing, of course, requires no pivoting at all.

The ideal balance is based on what the horse & rider are trying to do. A horse can be well balanced and in control with most weight on the front, or rear, or in between. When someone says, "the horse can't collect and balance", they are confusing two separate issues. Balance is not collection. 

I'm not attacking dressage. All I'm doing - and it shouldn't be even slightly controversial - is saying that dressage isn't the end all of riding horses, and that horses can be ridden well without collection, and that non-dressage riders often use the term collection in a way that differs from dressage - so read a non-dressage article without worrying if the horse is on the bit and collected like a dressage horse would be.

BTW: the author of the original article is April Reeves. A Google search turned up this quote, which I agree with: "I believe in respecting all breeds and disciplines. Although many of them teach and use methods that may not be of use to you, they still are part of the big wide horse world, and becoming a ‘horseman’ is about knowing or respecting what and how other breeds and disciplines do things."


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

bsms said:


> "The aim of dressage is not dressage - the aim of dressage is to have a well school, responsive horse who is using himself well and powering from behind (the vast majority of thier power is in the muscles of the hind end). Horses move faster when using thier back end to power them rather then thier front."
> 
> That would explain why race horses use dressage to win...
> 
> No. The aim of dressage is dressage. Lower level dressage teaches and trains and strengthens the horse so it can shift it's weight far enough to the rear to perform upper level dressage. *Dressage is a SPORT, and a subcategory of horse riding. It is not invalid or evil, but it is not just "training". If it were just training, then everyone who trains a horse towards any goal is a dressage rider.* Barrel racers don't do dressage, and steeplechase riders don't do dressage, and anyone who pretends they do is ignoring dressage.


I think that there is some misunderstanding here between "D" Dressage and "d" dressage. The word itself simply means training, fact of life. "D" Dressage is dressage applied to the ballet-style, judged event, sport. "d" dressage is simple good training, seeking to teach the horse to be a willing, relaxed, obedient partner in whatever discipline he will eventually compete in , or not, as the case may be. Every horse who will be expected to interact with humans as a willing partner is exposed to "d" dressage, or training. 




bsms said:


> *Why does dressage emphasize shifting weight to the rear?* Because it is needed for dressage movements. Race horses power themselves from the rear. Barrel racing horses power themselves from the rear. So do cutting horses. So does my bitless mare.


"d" dressage (generic training) emphasizes shifting the weight to the rear because that is the most efficient way for the horse to travel in order to carry out any of the more athletic tasks that a rider would ask. All disciplines ask for engagement of the hindquarters and some weight shift back in accordance with what is required for that specific discipline. It's a matter of the degree of that shift, of that engagement, not whether it exists or not. A passage requires a weight shift, and so does a sliding stop. 

Collection means different things to different disciplines. In "D" Dressage, collection (as simply as I know to put it) ultimately refers to the *even* loading of weight over all 4 legs. In other disciplines, the definition of collection can be satisfied by the beginning stages of "D" Dressage collection, or the beginnings of the horse working over his topline from behind. A horse can be collected in the reining sense, but not in the "D" Dressage sense. A horse collected in the Grand Prix "D" Dressage sense is probably collected in every other sense possible. 



bsms said:


> "A horse can go around slow with his head down or avoiding the bit, and evading by dropping behind the vertical as shown in most of those pictures throughout the article, and look "pretty" but be functionally strung out and not connected whatsoever tail to nose." Post 7
> 
> "the first horse is dragging itself round with its front end, back end is doing very little and the horse is very clearly not comfortable."
> 
> ...


There's nothing "wrong" with the way this horse is traveling per se, but it is a long way from collected, and there is nothing going on in this particular "moment in time" that suggests that that is being rectified. Note the footfalls - the horse is not tracking up: his hind hoof is not falling into the footprint left by the front hoof, i.e., the hindquarters are not engaged at the natural working trot. This is the definition of "strung out" and "dragging itself along on the front end." It is difficult for my eye to tell with the western saddle in the way, but this horse's spine appears inverted to me, and hence stiff, unrelaxed, etc. 

If the hindquarters were engaged and the horse were tracking up, there is a massive loop in the reins. Not a bad thing - I ride with a loop in the reins at times myself. It's a good place for the horse to learn to relax and balance himself naturally. BUT, there cannot be any connection, any recycling of the power generated by the hypothetically engaged hindquarters if there is no connection from the rider's seat and legs to the horse's hindquarters to energy to the horse's mouth to the rider's hands and back to the hindquarters. 



bsms said:


> Now, let's talk about collection ("it means that the horse lightens up on the forehand, shifts its weight onto the hind end, and its stride shortens) as a goal. What is its purpose?(...)
> 
> (...)In a dressage ring, collection (as you define it) is important (presumably) for dressage events. Remember, dressage is a sport where you perform certain actions. It is NOT harmonious barrel racing, and you won't see a horse cutting cattle in Olympic dressage.
> 
> ...


In my (still learning) understanding, the purpose of collection in any sense is to have the horse relaxed, supple, and connected, with the degree of impulsion and straightness required for his level of competition in any discipline. A collected horse is an efficient horse - the degree of efficiency is dictated by the requirements of the discipline. It isn't a matter of collection/no collection, but of how much. 

A horse can be collected on a simple straight line trot as much as he can be in a Grand Prix canter pirouette. It's only a matter of the horse being relaxed, rhythmic, supple, connected from the hindquarters forward, moving with impulsion and straightness, with appropriate engagement and weight loading on the hindquarters for the horse's level of training in whatever movement of whatever discipline he is being asked to perform.




bsms said:


> I'm not attacking dressage. All I'm doing - and it shouldn't be even slightly controversial - is saying that dressage isn't the end all of riding horses, and that horses can be ridden well without collection, and that non-dressage riders often use the term collection in a way that differs from dressage - so read a non-dressage article without worrying if the horse is on the bit and collected like a dressage horse would be.


The issue is that, no matter what sense we're talking about collection in, the goal is achieved the same way - engaging the hindquarters from the hind end forward and encouraging the horse to accept and carry the bit. This goes for "D" Dressage horses working on an obvious rein "contact" to a finished western bridle horse working on that lovely draped rein. Holding onto the horse's mouth until he evades the bit backwards and puts slack in the rein does not teach acceptance - it teaches avoidance, and that can be very difficult to fix with acceptance once ingrained into training. A horse ridden correctly, regardless of discipline, by a rider with educated hands and encouraging engagement of the hindquarters and all of the other things that I've been listing that deal with "collection" in any sense, will simply fall into that face-nigh-vertical frame. 

Starting with getting the face on the vertical attempts to train the result, not allow the result to occur through proper work and muscle training. 




bsms said:


> BTW: the author of the original article is April Reeves. A Google search turned up this quote, which I agree with: "





bsms said:


> I believe in respecting all breeds and disciplines. Although many of them teach and use methods that may not be of use to you, they still are part of the big wide horse world, and becoming a ‘horseman’ is about knowing or respecting what and how other breeds and disciplines do things."


Agreed 1,000%. But, there's a difference between knowing/understanding/respecting and thinking critically about what is being presented. 

Please, more experienced riders/trainers, correct me if I'm wrong about anything I've said... I'm still learning a lot of this theory. :wink:


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Please note I took special care to not say "dressage is applicable to ALL disciplines." you are probably correct, it wouldn't help much in a race. Then again, racing itself doesn't really apply any other gait or movemenb other than "go forwards fast."
reining is western dressage. Showjumpers couldn't do the courses they do without dressage. Cutters apply the same theories; the horses couldn't move the way they do without training - dressage. Trail riders control their horses gaits and lateral movements - dressage. Does your horse know how to w/t/c, change between gaits, and have some control within those gaits? Does your horse know some lateral movements? You've started dressage training then. It's just a matter of getting the horse moving properly when you advance your training.
For the record, some upper level dressage horses are strung out, hollow, and not connected. So even those who are supposedly achieving the "goal of dressage," well, haven't. 
Most disciplines use at least the basics of dressage, they just don't call it dressage. 
Same as the football players that learn the basics of ballet (I'm sure you've heard of teams doing that?) it is about improving balance and body awareness. I'm sure that my linebacker friend isn't going to appear in the starring role of Swan Lake anytime soon, but the training and coordination he learns helps him be more "together" on the field. 
The goal in dressage is simply to train. And whether you like it or not, you are training your horse every time you ride. You just decide whether or not you want to do dressage (train) properly, in harmony and with proper posture and coordination, or not.
I will reply in further detail when I get to a full size keyboard 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Hm. If the second half of my post looks huge to anyone else, it isn't meant to be. 
Good post, Scoutrider. I like the Dressage and dressage references. I am speaking about dressage, little d, being applicable to most disciplines, because it is simply learning how to move _correctly._ 
Dressage training is almost like saying $1 dollar or ATM machine. Training training. One dollar dollar. Automated teller machine machine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

bsms said:


> This is not dressage:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you are a lost cause and anything we say is going to be immediately pho pho'd by you but I'll answer anyway:

Photo 1 - No that is not dressage but the horse has shifted its weight back into its hocks, rounded its back and free'd its withers. If it hadnt It wouldnt physically be able to make those turns, that is what dressage is all about.

Photo 2 - Have you ever worked with race horses? I have, i've ridden out on them and taken them on the gallops too (brings in a little extra cash) A good race horse trainer will teach a horse to use it's engine (its back end) properly. Note how the horses wither is the highest point of it's back and the whole picture looks uphill rather then down hill despite being on the down hill stride of the gallop. That horse is powering from behind, it has lifted it's rib cage and is using his tummy to support his back! If you gallop a horse on the forehand then it doesnt get anywhere near the same power, acceleration and stamina as a horse using it's back end well. No it isnt in a Dressage frame as such but it is using it's back end and it wouldnt take much to get it in a rounder frame and it all boils down to dressage (little d) where teaching a horse to use its back end is paramount.

Photo 3 - what a horrible photo, the horse looks stressed and unhappy. It is having it's back teeth hauled out by a very large guy.


Whilst ears back isnt always a sign of stress when you have been round horses as long as I have you recognise the body language and even on small photos you can pick out stiff, unwilling horses. That pally in the motion shot is stiff through its neck and jaw and is not happy with what it is being asked to do. untill the horse relaxes its jaw and accepts the bit (which will release it's poll and conciquently it's neck) then it wil not progress any further.

BTW - did you know that ANKY Van Grunsven who for many many years has been world number one in dressage has also competed at the WEG in reining?




In this video of her first international reining competition I see a happy, well conected obediant horse that has obviously benefited hugely from Anky's Dressage background. It got her to the WEG so I'd say she was doing well!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Thanks for both responses.

Scoutrider: "I think that there is some misunderstanding here between "D" Dressage and "d" dressage." Good analysis and valid point.

"There's nothing "wrong" with the way this horse is traveling per se, but it is a long way from collected, and there is nothing going on in this particular "moment in time" that suggests that that is being rectified"

Fair enough. Things are relative sometimes. My mare will often trot in a very strung out manner - taking baby steps, only quickly. Awkward for both of us. What seems to be working is just keeping her going until SHE decides it isn't fun, and starts to engage her rear end, lengthen her strides while slowing the pace, thus keeping the same speed but moving more efficiently.

"The issue is that, no matter what sense we're talking about collection in, the goal is achieved the same way - engaging the hindquarters from the hind end forward and encouraging the horse to accept and carry the bit."

Hmmm...a goal, or a training means? I suspect it is easier to teach collection with a bit, but the bit isn't the end goal of the training, but a means of accomplishing it. It may well be that for the movements required by "DRESSAGE", a bit is almost always critical. For the degree of collection I need, it isn't. Mia CAN move in a collected manner to the degree needed for trail riding and general practice in the arena. She almost always moves that way on her own, so my challenge it to teach her to carry my weight using the same principles she uses when simply carrying her own.

And when it is right, it is right. I couldn't describe it in engineering terms, but it is obvious when things start to click. For a brief moment, we move like one. I know it and she knows it, and our challenge is to teach each other how to make those moments come faster and stay longer. She's pushing 10, and I'm pushing 53, so it is an open question if we will achieve it before we both need to put the saddle away.

"It's only a matter of the horse being relaxed, rhythmic, supple, connected from the hindquarters forward, moving with impulsion and straightness, with appropriate engagement and weight loading on the hindquarters for the horse's level of training in whatever movement of whatever discipline he is being asked to perform."

Well said.

JustDressageIt: "Trail riders control their horses gaits and lateral movements - dressage"

Little D dressage...OK. However, the reason I and other western riders will buy books or watch videos or ask questions involving big D dressage is to see if the training techniques, positions, etc can help us achieve our goals. For example, I don't want to ride like nor my horse to imitate Dressage, but I might use a bit with her for specific training goals. (A young previous owner used a harsh bit "for control" and got rebellion instead, which is how I came to own her...not that it was a good idea for a beginner rider to learn by buying an Arabian with an attitude).

The idea is to look at what I'm trying to achieve with her, and then see if other disciplines have good ideas on how to train to those goals. 

"Does your horse know how to w/t/c, change between gaits, and have some control within those gaits? Does your horse know some lateral movements?"

No, not well, sometimes and yes. Eventually, I'd like it to be Yes times 4.

"Most disciplines use at least the basics of dressage, they just don't call it dressage."

I suppose I'd phrase it, "All disciplines use the basics of riding, and the varying disciplines then adjust to achieve their desired end."

"And whether you like it or not, you are training your horse every time you ride."

Hmmm...I'm beginning to think I'm training my horse every time we MEET, let alone RIDE. And I suspect most dressage riders would agree with that...


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

DubyaS6 said:


> Can anyone post an article that they DO agree with? This would mainly be directed at JDI and Spyder since they don't think this article applies to dressage necessarily...


I already wrote an article...

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-articles/my-article-part-1-a-16171/


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

bsms said:


> (Scoutrider) - "The issue is that, no matter what sense we're talking about collection in, the goal is achieved the same way - engaging the hindquarters from the hind end forward and encouraging the horse to accept and carry the bit."
> 
> Hmmm...a goal, or a training means? I suspect it is easier to teach collection with a bit, but the bit isn't the end goal of the training, but a means of accomplishing it. It may well be that for the movements required by "DRESSAGE", a bit is almost always critical. For the degree of collection I need, it isn't. Mia CAN move in a collected manner to the degree needed for trail riding and general practice in the arena. She almost always moves that way on her own, so my challenge it to teach her to carry my weight using the same principles she uses when simply carrying her own.




I should clarify "carry the bit" better - the bit isn't the focus of what I was trying to convey, but the head carriage that the article seeks to emulate by pressure and release. The result of that exercise mimics self carriage, the "bit packing" or "halter packing" (ultimately, "self packing") posture of a correctly traveling horse. For the purposes of "D" Dressage, a bit is a crucial communication tool for the degree of collection sought. For lesser degrees, a bitless bridle or halter may be sufficient. Some horses can attain an upper level "D" Dressage level of collection and self carriage without a bit (Can't find a video example right now, but I'm sure they're out there). 

That's the heart of the issue I have with the article - it will result in a posture that mimics self carriage, without the self carriage. No self carriage, no collection in any sense whatsoever, regardless of discipline or setting.




bsms said:


> And when it is right, it is right. I couldn't describe it in engineering terms, but it is obvious when things start to click. For a brief moment, we move like one. I know it and she knows it, and our challenge is to teach each other how to make those moments come faster and stay longer. She's pushing 10, and I'm pushing 53, so it is an open question if we will achieve it before we both need to put the saddle away.


Ah, at pushing 10 and 53, you and your mare both have a lot of years of riding left in you! My first horse was going strong and happy well into his early 20's. From what you describe, you're both very much on the right track to getting her working off of her hindquarters and carrying herself in the sense of collection appropriate to what you want to do. 




bsms said:


> Hmmm...I'm beginning to think I'm training my horse every time we MEET, let alone RIDE. And I suspect most dressage riders would agree with that...


^This is absolutely and 100% right. There is no off-switch to the equine mind. :wink:


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

Hmm. Well, I read 90% of the article and then the comments on it.

I agree, the author was probably wrong to title this article with "collection" in it. While this article is not the greatest source of how to collect a horse, it does have some very useful exercises to help achieve a horse that is collected at any level. Some exercises are not as great (the evading the bit exercise made me raise an eyebrow. The only thing it MIGHT be useful for is developing muscles, but this can be done without the bit and on the ground.) 

I have minimal if any Dressage experience. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The article would have been more appropriately titled "how to get our western horse low and slow."
I am not meaning that in a snarky tone at all, just that the article had nothing about collection. No matter what discipline you are in, collection means the same thing. It does not mean low and slow, though that's what it appears to the untrained eye. 
It baffles me why people fixate on headset so... The horse's head will fall into place when the body becomes correct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Spyder-

Thanks for the link to your article. I will be honest, it was pretty difficult for me to read. I will be the first to say that I am a Dressage newbie, but I am very familiar with how a horse's body works and should work.

Its just a lot to take in and you definitely really have to think about every sentence that you wrote. Its very well written and VERY informative.

I am looking for an article more based on specific exercises to perform and examples of how to perform these. Your article seemed to be based on how to ride a collected horse, which is fantastic, but I am looking for something a little more elementary I guess.

Thanks again!


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## Sarahandlola (Dec 16, 2010)

Thanks for this =D


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