# Can't catch my horse!



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I am going to pm you as this gets rather long.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> I am going to pm you as this gets rather long.


Great - I can't wait! Thanks!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

I do have a video of what we're doing now and his behavior, so I'll upload that here shortly


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

I know how discouraged you are feeling. When I first got my QH mare everytime I called her when she was out in the pasture she would come galloping to me. That was the norm for a couple of years. Then we added another horse and they became best buddies. Then we got an Australian Cattle Dog, aka Red Heeler. Boy Howdy was that ever a mistake. Everytime I went out to call my mare up the ACD would take chase. So in order to catch up my mare I had to chain up that dadgum, blasted ACD.

She became a major headache to catch in the pasture, but once caught she was her usual sweet self and loved the attention she got from me. At one point some years ago I put her on pasture board at a nearby boarding facility just because and I got a cut-rate board fee for helping out with chores and helping to take care of the other stall board horses. She is now retired as I am also and I have her up in a large paddock with a shed-row over hang and loves all the attention coming her way.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

I would suggest slowing down with this guy. It's not always a popular opinion, but Arabians can be different. I have found that they respond better if they are connected to "their person" .. and don't respond well when they are pushed, or cowboyed.

You've had him such a short time.

Slow down .. spend time with him, teach basic respect, manners, etc and let him connect with you.... he'll be your friend and give you 100% for life. Push him, rush him, cowboy him and he'll be another on the long list of "crazy arabian" stories.

I know you're discouraged .. and have so little patience for a horse I can't catch.. 

I hope you find the solution that works for the both of you.

imo


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

texasgal said:


> I would suggest slowing down with this guy. It's not always a popular opinion, but Arabians can be different. I have found that they respond better if they are connected to "their person" .. and don't respond well when they are pushed, or cowboyed.
> 
> You've had him such a short time.
> 
> ...


Funny you should mention that, because that bond is what I so looked forward to in getting an Arabian. Of course, at the same time that I spent the 45 minutes trying to catch him, my colt spent 45 minutes trying to catch me - boy did we look like a great trio! Unfortunately, that just makes the lack of a bond with my Arabian that much more painfully obvious. You're right in the sense that I think pushing him away is doing more harm than good, and I'm going to focus on more "come to me" exercises and rewarding than the traditional making him run every time he turns away - he's made it clear he's perfectly happy running from me and would do it all day! That, and that grain and treats just are not going to win him over when he knows it means he's gonna get caught. It's even discouraging when I brush him, though, because he just seems so impatient and not like he enjoys our "down time" together at all - he'd rather me go let him loose! *sigh* I guess it's just going to take time...


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

He's also had 7 years of basically being on his own ...

I'm just so sorry for you as the bond can be an amazing thing .. I know .. and I want that for you .. for HIM. You both need it!

Keep us posted Jilly ..


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Here's a video that shows pretty well what I'm dealing with. I'm still learning how to fix this, and have some different ideas, but this demonstrates his general behavior...


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## corgi (Nov 3, 2009)

My mare went through a phase like this just a few weeks ago. I was heartbroken because I thought she looked forward to being with me. Then I realized she is just being a horse. 
So, I read somewhere if she refuses to be caught and moves away from me, to make her think it was my idea that she move away from me.
So, I did.
I chased her all over that field, making her run by flapping the lead rope...not letting her stop, even though I was exhausted. Finally, she went and stood by the fence and stayed still. I was able to approach her and halter her.
Haven't had an issue since. She would rather come and be with me than be made to run all over her field against her will.
It seems to have worked...and I hope it is a permanent fix. If not, I will just remind her that it is easier to be caught than chased.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

corgi said:


> My mare went through a phase like this just a few weeks ago. I was heartbroken because I thought she looked forward to being with me. Then I realized she is just being a horse.
> So, I read somewhere if she refuses to be caught and moves away from me, to make her think it was my idea that she move away from me.
> So, I did.
> I chased her all over that field, making her run by flapping the lead rope...not letting her stop, even though I was exhausted. Finally, she went and stood by the fence and stayed still. I was able to approach her and halter her.
> ...


That seems to be the most common remedy that people suggest, but I'm afraid I don't think it's going to work in this case. Plus, I can't put everyone else's horses at risk by chasing mine around - the pasture is too big to keep him moving and he went down twice during all of this, at the same time rushing everyone else's horses into a frenzy :S I think the key here will be to bond with him and convince him he wants to be with me.


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

I think you have some basic concepts down.......but you need to refine what and how you are asking......with my guys I get the basic go forward, stop, and turn and face me.........this is all done with moving the hind end over and stopping the shoulder from moving forward so he pivots off the wall to face you if he starts to walk forward block the shoulder then move a little to the rear and ask for his hind end to move over (you can actually point at it) with out him walking off....if he tries to walk off block again keep repeating till he yields his hind over at this point you need to accept even a shift in weight......go in pat and praise him the go back to the center and ask again.......if at any time you try to block his move forward and he gets away send him around the pen for a few circles than ask again.....if he gets away again....send him forward....he will eventually decide that standing is easier......after all you are doing is asking him to do is to move his hind end over ....you do this one step at a time...my guys know I like them at 12:00 o'clock....you decide how picky you want to be.

The other thing that might happen when you block the shoulder is that they turn and spin and go the other way.....if you are fast enough you can block them and send them back the other way.....as you did not ask for a change of direction.....then block the shoulder and ask for a stop, then ask for the hind quarters to be moved over......you keep this sort seesaw motion up until he gets the picture.....I would suggest you get a trainer to show you as it becomes much easier once you know what to expect.

I can catch my horses any where......even in their big pastures and if some one out of the blue decides not to be caught I run them to a corner and move them back and forth till they turn and face me......then I just walk in and get them.

I think you just have to be clearer in what you are asking for.

Super Nova


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Super Nova said:


> I think you have some basic concepts down.......but you need to refine what and how you are asking......with my guys I get the basic go forward, stop, and turn and face me.........this is all done with moving the hind end over and stopping the shoulder from moving forward so he pivots off the wall to face you if he starts to walk forward block the shoulder then move a little to the rear and ask for his hind end to move over (you can actually point at it) with out him walking off....if he tries to walk off block again keep repeating till he yields his hind over at this point you need to accept even a shift in weight......go in pat and praise him the go back to the center and ask again.......if at any time you try to block his move forward and he gets away send him around the pen for a few circles than ask again.....if he gets away again....send him forward....he will eventually decide that standing is easier......after all you are doing is asking him to do is to move his hind end over ....you do this one step at a time...my guys know I like them at 12:00 o'clock....you decide how picky you want to be.
> 
> The other thing that might happen when you block the shoulder is that they turn and spin and go the other way.....if you are fast enough you can block them and send them back the other way.....as you did not ask for a change of direction.....then block the shoulder and ask for a stop, then ask for the hind quarters to be moved over......you keep this sort seesaw motion up until he gets the picture.....I would suggest you get a trainer to show you as it becomes much easier once you know what to expect.
> 
> ...


This is what we did in the round pen last Friday with the trainer after we had to corner him to catch him. He will not allow him self to be caught in a corner again - smart boy - and will run right through you (we're working on that as well). In the round pen, and even in the arena on his own, he listens. The issue is the addition of other horses and his overall attitude of not being interested in me. Even with the help of an experienced trainer, this didn't work in the pasture and he's gotten very smart about it all, plus I'm putting everyone else's horses at risk of injury if I run him around in the pasture.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

This horse basically has had no training, you just got him, and you are working him on a windy day too. 

Arabians react differently from other breeds, more reactive and alert.

And the 2 hour round pen thing was excessive. Any progress that might have been made was ended by that long a session. Same thing as if you were made to open the car door and shut it over and over for 2 hours. 

You need to slow way down here, and I'd lose the whole idea of turning this horse loose with 30 feet of rope in pasture, unless you want a dead horse, or a wounded one. 

I've known horses to get all four feet tangled up and fight until they died, and that was with 8 ft of rope. Also had one that when rope was looped on ground it stepped in it, and due to way rope had coiled, it tightened up and wouldn't release. That could have also ended up badly, but was there to undo it quickly.

I'd do less round penning and more just grooming, saddling and basics with this horse. Horse might well be fine without any round penning and catch on to whatever you are wanting it to do.

As for the catching? Go out there with grain to get them used to coming up. Small handful each, and that gets them used to coming up, and a lot easier than chasing around pasture each time.

While I'm not a big fan of that, it does work. 

At training barn, we can go out in pasture and catch any of the horses without it. But those horses are used to being worked and know it is part of their lives too. And some horses are just more mellow about things too. But most of them? Not all that interested in being worked.


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## GreenBackJack (Feb 23, 2012)

Jillybean this has to totally suck for you! Gah, I really feel your frustration and sadness over this! 
The video was great because we can see exactly what is happening in real time. I'm going to tell you what I see in this video. I know it can be a sensitive subject when it comes to our relationships with our horses so if I stomp on a nerve or two I hope you'll forgive the wounding. 

1. your body language is extremely stiff and distrusting.

2. his body language says he doesn't trust you either. 

3. neither of you are having any fun. But you already knew that. duh! LOL

4. you and Snickers are not talking the same language at all and that's why he's distracted toward the herd. He understands them and he understands his position in the herd. He does not understand his position with you. 

5.First he reads your body language and smells your chemistry which tell him you are unsure and anxious. Then it is further confirmed in the tone of your voice is more of the same. To a horse all that equals up to a great big risk of life and safety.

6. You chase him. A lot. You're behaving like a nervous predator and that trigger his flight instinct. 

7. *Your problem is a lack of leadership*. 

He looks like a smart and wonderful horse that will train up beautifully for you but unless you really gain his trust i.e. respect, you will never truly be safe with him. 

I'm sure I didn't tell you a **** thing you didn't already know but often knowing and doing are not always the same thing. Maybe you're just really eager and those emotions are getting in the way. Take a deep breath, collect your leadership qualities, go out into to field with him and just BE. Be the leader and don't DO anything. Move about with confidence, don't approach him directly. Just hang out with your other horse, the one that already likes you,  and be patient. You just have to slow your core down and allow yourself to be the leader for him. That's what he really wants and needs out of you.
When he wants to run around in the round pen like a dumb ***, just let him! Don't chase him, thus adding to his idiocy. Show him you are the leader by being still, calm, steady and confident. He will see that and he will respond to that. Leadership is like riding, you have to find your balance, stay solid in your seat and keep your focus on where you want to go. It's a state of mind. 

I really do think you are going to have a wonderful relationship with Snickers!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

What I meant by the turning him out with the lunge line was, when I've got him as good as I can in the arena, doing an approach-treat-walk away tecnique to get him used to me coming up to him. I would never turn a horse just "loose" anywhere with a lead rope, much less a lunge line. This would be with me immediately there. The purpose of the longe line would be to make sure we don't have another roping incident as we did the other day.

He's had enough training to be green broke, and is actually quite a nice ride - once he's caught. He listens and works for me then, but is quite intent on "getting the job done" just so he can be out again. He takes absolutely no pleasure from being with me it seems.

To clarify, the two hour round pen session was under direction of a trainer. I have never had this bad of an issue with catching a horse, ever, so am taking advice from anyone willing to give it - with a grain of salt of course. I very much respect the trainer and have confidence that she knows what she is doing - the issue is me and my relationship with my boy.

Grain doesn't work. Nothing could convince this horse to let me approach him now. Initially, he would check and see what I had in my hands (or IF I had anything), but wouldn't let me near his neck. Now I can't get him anywhere near me at all. The day the trainer helped me catch him, I was out there with a full bucket of grain and had just about every other horse with me but him :S

Since he's responding well in the round pen, I think the key here is our relationship. He could care less about me as soon as he has a friend, so that's where I need to build trust and respect. He doesn't get any pleasure even from me brushing him, and is so distracted at times that he won't even take a treat when I put it right under his nose. I keep 2 different kinds of biscuits, carrots, and grain with me when we work because he gets bored with the same treat after a while - he gets tired of the grain the quickest, actually. But eventually he tires of treats all together. I've never experienced that with a horse - and I even worked with him BEFORE he was fed yesterday!



Palomine said:


> This horse basically has had no training, you just got him, and you are working him on a windy day too.
> 
> Arabians react differently from other breeds, more reactive and alert.
> 
> ...


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

GreenBackJack said:


> Jillybean this has to totally suck for you! Gah, I really feel your frustration and sadness over this!
> The video was great because we can see exactly what is happening in real time. I'm going to tell you what I see in this video. I know it can be a sensitive subject when it comes to our relationships with our horses so if I stomp on a nerve or two I hope you'll forgive the wounding.
> 
> 1. your body language is extremely stiff and distrusting.
> ...


I absolutely agree with you, so thank you for being so honest with what you saw - it's always nerve racking to post exactly what's happening, including what you are doing to cause it! I've been raised with a very old-school way of training and with quarter horses, where you assert your dominance and the horse gives in. I don't want to continue with that pattern of thought now that I have my own horses, and obviously it isn't going to work anyway with my Arabian. My colt is so excited to be with me and tries anything he can do to please me, to the point that if he's being "bad", I know I just need to look in the mirror to see what it is I'm not communicating clearly. I'd really like to have that relationship with my Arabian as well and it makes it easier to recognize that he likely isn't being "bad" in his mind - somehow I need to connect with him so we have the same idea of what should be happening. I really like your suggestion of just hanging out with my colt and waiting for him to come around. I think I'll have to pull out all the stops, though, like having treats, hay, and brushing because I don't think he'll just come because he's interested. (yesterday, due to a sudden hail storm, I couldn't leave him tied because the noise in the barn was scary for him, so I held him on the lead rope and brushed my colt. Not once did he come and see what was going on - even after he calmed down, he was more interested in walking around and looking at everything else!)


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## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

The method I described works......but looking at the video you look like you lack conviction.....or as someone else said leadership....you need to be more forceful in your request, .....you ask, then tell, and then demand....sometimes it has to get ugly before it gets better.

Super Nova


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

I think you need to have him associate you with something positive. Why would he want to be caught when he could be outside on how many acres with all his buddies and hang out? Heck, I'd do the same. If he were mine first I would put him in a smaller paddock! One where I know it won't be impossible to catch him, he can NEVER win this game. Then I would attempt to bring him in just before dinner time. Once you finally catch him, which should hopefully be after dinner time making him nice and hungery, bring him inside for dinner. Let him eat and maybe graze him. Then he can go back out. Don't work him. Do it until he associates you with coming inside/caught. Maybe 5 days or a little longer? Then when you go to catch him and he won't let you that's ok because you control the food, just like an alpha. If you cantrol the food he doesn't get dinner. Leave and come back a little while later. He doesn't eat until he gets caught. 

Usually I would say chase that sucker until he doesn't want to move anymore but I think this has more to do with a baseline trust and respect then a disregard for an already established leader. You and him need a foundation, not a tune up! ;o)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

SlideStop said:


> I think you need to have him associate you with something positive. Why would he want to be caught when he could be outside on how many acres with all his buddies and hang out? Heck, I'd do the same. If he were mine first I would put him in a smaller paddock! One where I know it won't be impossible to catch him, he can NEVER win this game. Then I would attempt to bring him in just before dinner time. Once you finally catch him, which should hopefully be after dinner time making him nice and hungery, bring him inside for dinner. Let him eat and maybe graze him. Then he can go back out. Don't work him. Do it until he associates you with coming inside/caught. Maybe 5 days or a little longer? Then when you go to catch him and he won't let you that's ok because you control the food, just like an alpha. If you cantrol the food he doesn't get dinner. Leave and come back a little while later. He doesn't eat until he gets caught.
> 
> Usually I would say chase that sucker until he doesn't want to move anymore but I think this has more to do with a baseline trust and respect then a disregard for an already established leader. You and him need a foundation, not a tune up! ;o)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do agree with you as far as this being a baseline trust and respect issue, and think I'm going to get farter with positive rewards rather than negative punishment. I took his being broke for granted and never established a good foundation with him. Unfortunately, as I board, I don't control the food and they free feed, with giant bales sitting out there for a week at a time until they're gone, so I don't have the edge with being able to associate myself with food. However, today's work was encouraging - I'm going to write a post about it in a moment!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Well, today was ENcouraging finally rather than DIScouraging! I took GreenBackJack's approach of just hanging out with my colt, Flash, with my Arabian, Snickers, loose in the round pen, and pretty much ignored him. I chose to go with the round pen so he had enough room to have his own space, while at the same time not letting him get far away enough from me and Flash to forget we were there. I was brushing Flash and giving him treats, and I initially gave Snickers a treat so he knew I had them. He was decently interested and followed me once he noticed Flash following me, then figured out that if he followed me, whether or not Flash followed me, he'd get a treat. I did approach him a few times, too, when he seemed to loose interest, just to get him used to me walking up, and gave him treats and brushed him as a reward for letting me approach him.

After a while, I picked up the halter. In the week or two before our roping incident, Snickers would let me approach him, but keep me in front of him and then move away when I moved to his neck. As soon as I picked up the halter, he did the same thing today, not letting me get to his neck and moving away from me when he realized what I was trying to do. When this happened, I turned and walked away from him, as someone suggested on here, and went back to petting, brushing and treating Flash. Eventually, I was able to walk directly up to his side when he was standing against the fence, and he responded by looking at me and I gave him a treat as I rubbed the halter and lead rope on his neck, then brushed him for a while and gave him a few more treats, then went back to Flash (who was quite an [adorable] pest during this whole exercise, not wanting to be ignored since he knew how to earn the treats! He also figured out that they were in the bucket, and that if he knocked the bucket over he could reach them... But I managed to keep his attention enough not to let it detract from my lesson with Snickers). Eventually, he had no problem with me approaching and rubbing the halter and lead rope on him, then putting the rope around his neck, and finally haltering him, brushing him, then releasing him and starting over. He didn't really want to follow me much, though - at least not until I started using carrots instead of biscuits. Then he was VERY interested - I think I found his favorite treat! He would follow me, and then let me move around to his right side - the halter was in my right hand, so with me directly in front of him, I had to reach around with my empty left hand to rub his neck. If I move to his left side, with the halter in the hand reaching toward his neck, he moves to keep me in front of him, but he was fine with me moving to his right side, putting the rope around his neck, then moving back around to his left side to put the halter on. Awkward, yes, but successful! We can work out the details later.

After a few really good "catches", I turned them both out in the full size arena to give them a break, especially since Snickers needs turn out time from his stall. I went and did my own thing for 20-30 minutes, then went back to get them. Flash came as soon as he saw me, and Snickers followed behind. He seemed a little interested, but was still stand-off ish since I had the halter in my hand. He didn't wander too far away, though, just walking up and down the fence near where we were and occasionally looking at us. I just pet and treated Flash, attempted to approach Snickers when he stopped moving, and walked away when he walked away from me. Soon enough, I was able to walk up to Snickers, gave him a treat, and walked away. It only took a few tries before he followed me back to Flash, to which I walked up to him, haltered him, treated him, pet him, let him go, and then walked away. He followed me both times that I walked away, which I think was helped by Flash following me as well, but he also seemed to be doing it also because he wanted to follow me. The third time he followed me, I caught him, gave him a couple of extra treats, caught Flash, and called it a day.

Finally, rather than chasing Snickers away, he's letting me come up to him, catch him, and even following me sometimes - especially when I have carrots (though I ran out in the round pen, so the time he came in the arena was without them!) His overall demeanor seems timid and stand-off ish, but seems like he would like to participate if it would be a positive experience for him. I think we'll do this again tomorrow, and hopefully we just keep getting better. Thank you so much for all the advice and tips! I would have never thought of these approaches on my own!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Just as a side note, after chasing Snickers around for over an hour in the pasture on Saturday, he didn't get tired or even really break a sweat, though he did go down twice as he was trying so hard to escape. The only way he tired himself down enough to be caught, as we would have had to do with the "chase until he decides he wants to come" method, was after we roped him. He stampeded around the pasture running from that nice long rope trailing behind him for a good while and was drenched in sweat and shaking before he finally ran into a corner and held still long enough for us to grab the end of the lasso. Even then, when we tried to walk up to him, he took off back to the the herd, but the guy yanked Snickers back to look at him. He tried to take off a few more times, but figured out pretty quick he wasn't going anywhere. Something tells me he would have easily outlasted us using this method, and there were quite a few people out there much more experienced than I. I'm glad I was able to get such a wide variety of suggestions for how to approach this issue, because I feel like I was able to choose one today that fit both how I work best with my horses and with what his behavior and needs are right now.


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## 1997magic (Mar 14, 2012)

I know how you feel about this. when I was little I was working with this half arab half throughbred mix. He never liked to be caught, and one day the owner said she would. So me and my friend were sitting on a log in their little paddock and the darn horse jumped right over our heads! Anyway, he soon came to like me, and would come up to me after a while of working with him.

With your horse, I didn't exactly read all of your post, but do have a few suggestions on how to get him to listen or come to you. You have to use curiosity to get him. Maybe bring some treats in when you go to catch him sometimes, so he will want to see if you have some. Also try loving on all the other horses to make him want attention too. Also, sometimes ignore him when you go in. He will want you to be interested him, and if you pretend to not care, he will care more and will probably come up to you.


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## LoveHipHop (Mar 27, 2012)

Aw, don't feel discouraged - like you said, your horse will come to you when there are no other horses around, so he _does_ want to be with you! 

I can't say i've ever had this problem (I guess i've been lucky!) so I can't think of any specific advice to give you. Maybe he doesn't want to be caught because he doesn't really enjoy what you do together when he is caught? I saw you mentioned that he doesn't really enjoy your down time together. Perhaps he is more of a go-getter and likes to keep moving? You could try taking him out in a headcollar for some grazing in different areas - that way, you can be closer to him than when riding and can talk to him/stroke him etc more, but it feels like an adventure for him lol! Also that way there wouldn't be any other horses around to distract him XD

Another idea might be to just be in his paddock lots, or near his stable. The more he sees you, the more curious he will get about what you are up to. He might start coming over to see what's going on, and then you can reward him when he does. I think sometimes just being there but not actively doing anything with the horse creates interest for them 

Anyhow, it sounds like you've been making great progress already with your horse, so keep doing whatever you are doing because it must be working haha!

I'm sorry I can't be of more help. Like has been said before, a bond is something every horse owner wants - i'd love to really really close to Hippy, but I think it just takes time.
Hope things work out though, stick at it!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

texasgal said:


> I would suggest slowing down with this guy. It's not always a popular opinion, but Arabians can be different. I have found that they respond better if they are connected to "their person" .. and don't respond well when they are pushed, or cowboyed.


It is NOT just an Arab thing. It's a horse thing. I have had Arabs, paints and QH's. The bond is there if the horse (and human) are the bonding time. Some horses and some people view the relationship as a strictly work thing.


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

Well it looks like you have a beautiful and very smart horse. I can see the beginnings of a wonderful future mount.

A couple things I would have done differently when working on the stopping is only asking for the stop when he focuses on you. 

I was watching the round penning, and I think I would have asked him to go around a few more times before asking for the stop. His nose is pointed out - ie. no attention on you - the entire time he's moving. IMO, he shouldn't get a break or be allowed to stop until his attention is on you. 

I'm no natural horsewoman, but if you check out the join up and follow up Monty Roberts does, notice the horse doesn't get to stop until he starts displaying proper submissive signals. You want his head to drop, and you want those lips to start moving, and his ear should be GLUED on you... you want him to be ASKING YOU if it's okay to stop now. 

He looks like he's stopping now because he's nice enough to stop when you suggest the idea of whoa, but not because he feels like it's an order.





 this video up until about 4 minutes demonstrates what I'm trying to say. 

When he starts viewing stopping as a privilege and as a nice place to be, then you will find him easier to catch.

~~~~

Another thing I've done with hard to catch horses is to single them out away from the herd. I'm the biggest meanest thing in that herd - I am lead mare when I go in there, and if the horse I'm trying to catch is not being cooperative then I will put him on the outside of the herd and not let him back in until he stops running from me.

If I am working with a horse I know to be hard to catch, I will often stuff my pockets with treats and spend time in the field just approaching, giving a treat and retreating. The first couple times you approach it will be tricky, and may take several minutes. But the goal is to make it so that every time you go out you're not always going to get him for work. This causes the horse to change his expectations of you. You said you have another horse out there.. When you go to catch the other one, stop on your way to make a point of going up to the other one and give him a pat, a treat or just stand with him for a moment... then walk away and go get the other horse.

~~~~~

These are just a couple tricks that have worked for me, I hope he gets better for you... he really does look like a wonderful horse.


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## GreenBackJack (Feb 23, 2012)

jillybean19 said:


> Well, today was ENcouraging finally rather than DIScouraging! I took GreenBackJack's approach of just hanging out with my colt, Flash, with my Arabian, Snickers, loose in the round pen, and pretty much ignored him. I chose to go with the round pen so he had enough room to have his own space, while at the same time not letting him get far away enough from me and Flash to forget we were there. I was brushing Flash and giving him treats, and I initially gave Snickers a treat so he knew I had them. He was decently interested and followed me once he noticed Flash following me, then figured out that if he followed me, whether or not Flash followed me, he'd get a treat. I did approach him a few times, too, when he seemed to loose interest, just to get him used to me walking up, and gave him treats and brushed him as a reward for letting me approach him.
> 
> After a while, I picked up the halter. In the week or two before our roping incident, Snickers would let me approach him, but keep me in front of him and then move away when I moved to his neck. As soon as I picked up the halter, he did the same thing today, not letting me get to his neck and moving away from me when he realized what I was trying to do. When this happened, I turned and walked away from him, as someone suggested on here, and went back to petting, brushing and treating Flash. Eventually, I was able to walk directly up to his side when he was standing against the fence, and he responded by looking at me and I gave him a treat as I rubbed the halter and lead rope on his neck, then brushed him for a while and gave him a few more treats, then went back to Flash (who was quite an [adorable] pest during this whole exercise, not wanting to be ignored since he knew how to earn the treats! He also figured out that they were in the bucket, and that if he knocked the bucket over he could reach them... But I managed to keep his attention enough not to let it detract from my lesson with Snickers). Eventually, he had no problem with me approaching and rubbing the halter and lead rope on him, then putting the rope around his neck, and finally haltering him, brushing him, then releasing him and starting over. He didn't really want to follow me much, though - at least not until I started using carrots instead of biscuits. Then he was VERY interested - I think I found his favorite treat! He would follow me, and then let me move around to his right side - the halter was in my right hand, so with me directly in front of him, I had to reach around with my empty left hand to rub his neck. If I move to his left side, with the halter in the hand reaching toward his neck, he moves to keep me in front of him, but he was fine with me moving to his right side, putting the rope around his neck, then moving back around to his left side to put the halter on. Awkward, yes, but successful! We can work out the details later.
> 
> ...


Jillybean I am so happy for you! And for Snickers too. :lol: Sounds like you had a really positive turn. The tone of your post sounds as if you're finding your center with him. I'm sure with just a little more time you guys will be in great shape. I love the way you showed him that being caught doesn't have to be stressful and negative and that you had so much patience with the catch and release policy. Sounds like Flash made out pretty good on the deal too.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

Hope I am not repeating as I could not read every post yet and need to catch up. 
Have you tried just being with him when he is caught and not working him??? I will go out just to pet my horses or walk them like a dog up and down the road them put them back. Not making catching them mean WORK all the time.


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## aerie (Jul 19, 2010)

I have been mercilessly stalking this thread because I am cuirous to see how you two progress, buuuuut I figured I could subscribe to it and not have to keep my eye out for it! lol I am glad you made some progress!!! I can't wait to see the bond that you two will form with lots of love and time. Good luck, and keep on truckin' girl!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Today was drizzley, so we stuck to the indoor arena, where, unfortunately, I can't turn him loose. However, it was quite productive! I pulled out all the stops with treats for rewards, coming with a bucket of grain, peppermint AND apple biscuits, and 5 lbs of carrots! Since he seems to get bored with treats after a while, I figured I'd mix it up and surprise him by pulling out different treats throughout our lesson, but I didn't use the grain at all because I don't think he really likes it all that much.

Other than personality, I think a major reason for my colt being so bonded with me is because I never caught him intending to really WORK him because I can't ride him anyway. Istead, we began immediately working on clicker training and have used that since, and I now have a super-eager treat earner. So why not start over there with Snickers? We did clicker training to get him to touch my hand - offer my hand, wait for him to come touch it, click, and treat! He caught on very quickly (of course, it helps when you start off with a treat hidden in that hand lol). We broke it up into short, quick sessions to avoid him getting bored, with brushing in between. We went from holding onto the lead rope, to letting the lead rope drag, and then letting the lunge line drag (so I could walk farther away and let him come to me), and it went very well. Then we braved the outdoors (it was only lightly raining off and on) and did it with him turned loose in the round pen, continuing to make progress. 

Finally, I turned him loose in the arena to chill, then went and got my colt and turned him out with Snickers as well to just have some buddy time. After about a half hour, I went back in armed with the halter, clicker, and more treats. Of course, Flash (my colt) came right up to me looking for treats, but Snickers was still stand-off ish. I did try to approach him, but he moved away and so I immediately went back to Flash. Snickers walked around for a few minutes, never going more than 20-30 feet way and acting like he wasn't interested, but sure enough, he eventually came and stood looking right at me about 5 feet away. I approached him, let him touch my hand, clicked, treated, and then went right back to Flash. And guess who followed me a moment or two later! This time I clicked, treated, then went around to his neck and petted him, and walked away. Flash followed me, and Snickers came behind him. When I stopped, he came all the way up and touched my hand for a treat, for which I clicked and treated of course, then moved around to his neck, petted him, then slipped the rope around his neck and haltered him, treated him again, then took the halter off. We did this routine 2-3 more times all the way back to my stuff in the arena, except now Flash was the one lagging behind Snickers! It was great having Snickers follow me without any regard to the fact that he was leaving Flash behind  he got some extra treats - especially his favorite carrots - and we called it a day  

I'm not sure if he really gets or cares about the clicker (though he does when he puts up a fight for bridling, since that's what I initially introduced the clicker to him for), but he's definitely interested in me and coming to me! As for enjoying the down time, I know someone mentioned he may be a horse that just likes to move. In his case, the reason I didn't feel like he enjoyed the down time is because he was so concernd about where his buddies were, constantly moving around to see them and whinnying. He's been calmer about everything it seems since our back-to-back round penning and roping incidents, but I think he's at least starting to relax when I'm brushing him as we start bonding more (though he starts whinnying ans stressing out as soon as I'm out of sight like he always has, but there's less whinnying and movement when I'm there now at least)


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

*Update*

Just a quick update - today I turned both of my horses out into the arena as soon as I got there, greeting Snickers with treats and giving him one when I left him in the arena. I went and took care of some things, then went back to the arena calling them. Guess who came to meet me! Snickers actually beat my colt to me, which resulted in much treating haha. I walked away, and Snickers kept his attention in me and followed me, even though my colt took his time. Snickers was the first to me every time! After walking away, having him come up to me, treating, catching, and treating him again a few times, I left them alone for a while. When I came back, he came to me again! This time, I didn't treat him until after he was haltered. He backed up a few steps, but I he was trying to keep his attention on me, I think, rather than get away. I just had to move around to his side and tell him woah. He didn't walk away from me at all! After all this, we called it a day, especially because it was quite windy. While I was waiting in between sessions, a new boarder came that the owner of the property asked me to watch out for, and she moved her GORGEOUS friesian into the stall next to Snickers to stay in for the first few days before he gets turned out with the other horses. I got along with the lady quite well and we're both going out there, so we're going to turn her horse out with Snickers and Flash tomorrow morning while I practice catching and releasing Snickers. I'm excited to see how it goes with another horse tomorrow and am very happy about the bond we are forming!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

jilly, it's been proven horses learn faster with clicker training. So glad you're happy with your progress and the horses pick up on that. In the house I may have something in mind to do with the horses, but once outside I empty my mind, smile and greet them and go from there.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> jilly, it's been proven horses learn faster with clicker training. So glad you're happy with your progress and the horses pick up on that. In the house I may have something in mind to do with the horses, but once outside I empty my mind, smile and greet them and go from there.


My exerience clicker training myncolt has been awesome. He is super eager towork for me and keeps trying harder and harder to earn a click (which is a problem when I'm not even working on something with him so I haven't come prepared!), and catches on very quickly. Once he's got something down, I can wean him off the clicker, but I'd be a fool to try and work with him without it because he assumes he's not doing what I want unless he hears it! Then, as soon as he DOES hear it, I get some awesome behaviors out of him. As for my Arabian, I'm not sure how much I'm REALLY going to use the clicker with him since he's smart enough to catch on and actually gets tired of the treats and doesn't seem interested in the clicking, but it sure did work him through his bridle issue when I was thinjing about buying him - as soon as you pulled the headstall over his hears, his head shot in the air with wide eyes and snarled nose and he'd jet get more upset from there. So what did I do? I clicker trained him to put his nose on the ground and keep it there  The few time this problem has reared it's ugly head since then (yea, pun blatantly intended ), all I've had to do is bring out the clicker and the bridle is on in a minute or so.


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## Lauren Woodard (Jul 7, 2010)

I'd like to plug in some thoughts that haven't been offered on this thread regarding the video and options for people with this issue. These aren't meant to offend only to get you thinking a bit differently. 1) It's repeatedly mentioned that horse isn't interested in looking at person and watches everything else. YES. That's because person isn't interesting. Why should horse be interested in person standing, walking, whatever without any positioning or real request, something that pertains to horse in horse's mind??? 2) Game on. Horse is much better than person so that part is fun. Person would have to do things differently to get a different result. Positioning is key. 3) Whoa. Saying whoa while horse is galloping around doesn't teach him to whoa, it teaches him that the word doesn't have any meaning in those circumstances i.e: horse realizes that person makes that sound all the time and it didn't change a thing horse was doing. 4) Doing too much while not asking the horse for much at all. At the beginning of the video moving all over the place trying to make the desired result easier for the horse just shows horse that he doesn't have to do much or think as person will try to 'fix' this for them. This also relates to boredom for the horse and dis-interest. 5) While I believe in treats, the amount and timing seem to fall into the bribe category instead of reward category.
Again, not to offend, just hope this helps.


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## GreenBackJack (Feb 23, 2012)

Jillybean, just wanted to say how happy I am for you and Snickers. It sounds like you have really found *your* way with him!  Congratulations!


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Lauren Woodard said:


> I'd like to plug in some thoughts that haven't been offered on this thread regarding the video and options for people with this issue. These aren't meant to offend only to get you thinking a bit differently. 1) It's repeatedly mentioned that horse isn't interested in looking at person and watches everything else. YES. That's because person isn't interesting. Why should horse be interested in person standing, walking, whatever without any positioning or real request, something that pertains to horse in horse's mind??? 2) Game on. Horse is much better than person so that part is fun. Person would have to do things differently to get a different result. Positioning is key. 3) Whoa. Saying whoa while horse is galloping around doesn't teach him to whoa, it teaches him that the word doesn't have any meaning in those circumstances i.e: horse realizes that person makes that sound all the time and it didn't change a thing horse was doing. 4) Doing too much while not asking the horse for much at all. At the beginning of the video moving all over the place trying to make the desired result easier for the horse just shows horse that he doesn't have to do much or think as person will try to 'fix' this for them. This also relates to boredom for the horse and dis-interest. 5) While I believe in treats, the amount and timing seem to fall into the bribe category instead of reward category.
> Again, not to offend, just hope this helps.


Thanks for the input  I've worked with and trained horses for my family since I was about ten under the guidance of my dad, but this is my first non-QH or paint that I have ever worked with and boy did I underestimate how different it could be in EVERYTHING. Plus, die to circumstances, this boy has thrown a couple of curve balls my way that I wasn't expecting, leading to me feeling like a total novice all over again, except that I'm not nervous haha.

In addressing your first point, his lack of interest was so excessive to the point that when I was brushing him, he was so distressed about not being with his buddies that he never looked at me nor cared wher I was even as I was moving around and touching him. He wouldn't even take a treat from my hand if I stuck it RIGHT under his nose. I have NEVER had that issue - a bucket of grain doesn't even catch his attention (though I have discovered lately that carrots are much more effective!). In hindsight, I think this was because of the distress, and being with me meant stress all around. Therefore, he was much more inclined to ignore me when he could, and get away from me when he couldn't.

For points 2-4, again I'd like to point out that I was totally out of my element here and I knew it. I had a very experienced trainer show me briefly what to do with him, then left to my less-capable and frustrated self to keep working with him. Plus I have the advice and recommendations from various other tecniques that I was trying to work in since I was willing to try just about anything at this point - the other option in the back of my mind for a while there was simply to sell him and try again with another horse :S I'm aware we're a total mess lol.

Finally, to adress your point about treats, I would agree with you in most cases and have never been a big treater (except, of course, with my recent clicker training endeavors with my colt and now Snickers, which have worked wonderfully). Snickers, however, would not even seem interested or calm enough to take treats stuck right under his nose as mentioneds before. His entire behavior and manner has changed in a very short time using these methods. He is calmer with me, whether or not I am treating him, is ok to be taken away from the other horses as his attention is now on me, and actually chose me above the other horses I turned him out with today. He's almost like a whole new horse! Every time I entered the arena today and yesterday, he was the first to greet me, and was relaxed enough around me that I was able to move around and pet him on his neck and body - he's not a kicker or afraid, but he would always keep me in front of him so I couldn't get the rope around his neck to catch him so this change is a big deal  Plus, even though he had some new friends to play with today, he mainly stuck around where I was. I can't tell you how excited I am that Snickers not only will let me catch him, but is more interested in where I am now and what I'm doing than being with the other horses, plus is comfortable with me catching him! Hopefully this will still prove true when I begin riding him (this week) and eventually turn him back out into the pasture (hopefully soon!) but with his entire change in attitude and behavior around me, both free with other horses and when caught and by himself with me, sugests we are well on the right track.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

GreenBackJack said:


> Jillybean, just wanted to say how happy I am for you and Snickers. It sounds like you have really found *your* way with him!  Congratulations!


Thanks! This is way easier than anything else I tried and has turned out way better results and a whole new horse that I'm excited to say is mine <3 With other, more aggressive techniques, I just ended up frustrated and, I have to admit, we were a total mess! But I think we're well on our way to a better relationship and a return to the pasture. Today someone turned out their two boys with mine, and Snickers was more concerned with being with me and greeted me at the gate every time I entered (as well as hung out just on the other side of the fence from where I was when I wasn't inside for most of the time). He even started shooing the other horses away - as the lady with me said, "MY mom!" was clearly written across his face. It was as good feeing being the center of HIS attention, along with my colt - no one was beating Snickers to me today!

I'm giong to start working some rides in now, but start with easy work and still have plenty of days for pampering him so we don't go back to where we were. If all goes well, he'll be back out in the pasture with his friends again soon!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Something I'd like to mention here. When a horse is playing the elusive game, it is best to WALK him down, not chase him but keep it low energy. By moving in behind him you are beginning to drive him as one horse drives another. The object is to get the horse wanting to watch you with both eyes and he will begin to make it harder for you to circle around behind. When you have both eyes, bend a little at the waist and use your hand to beckon him to come to you. He may suddenly bolt off so just wait until he stops moving then try to circle to behind him (not close enough to get kicked) and start driving him again. The more you move him the more he will want the pressure off. When he will allow you to halter him immediately remove it and walk away. Do something else then come back to repeat. When you first halter him pop a treat in his mouth. Now he's interested.


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## jillybean19 (Dec 23, 2011)

Just thought I'd give a final post, since I know there was at least one person following this. Honestly, after all the bonding we've been doing, Snickers is like a whole new horse, and I think it's because I'm a "safe" person that he's comfortable and patient with. Right down to the way he leads with his eyes and ears on me, head lowered and relaxed (as opposed to swinging his head high to look at everything, dancing around, and whinnying for his friends), he acts comfortable with me. Yes, we still get the occasional whinny, but then his attention is right back on me. And guess what? He enjoys just standing there and being brushed! We lunged in the round pen as a warm up/exercise the other day (since he's in the stall), and his ear was on me, paying attention, and definitely not looking for where his friends were. I think being in a stall has also helped, too, since _I'm_ his buddy now and he's not so concerned with the other horses. I'm so happy with where we're at 

Here's the ironic end to this little incident - though I think (though I wouldn't say I'm confident) I could catch him in the pasture now, the stall is going to be a permanent move. I finally went and got the supplements I need for him to get into shape for endurance, and it would be impossible to have him eat/drink them in a pasture situation, especially boarding. One of my worries for him being in a stall was that he would have too much energy, but as I mentioned above, he's more calm and relaxed than ever. So now the stall, and the two new buckets of supplements I hung up in there today, are his new home!


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Jilly .. I'm so happy for you both!


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## GreenBackJack (Feb 23, 2012)

:clap:Awesome! Great job Jillybean!!:clap:.

Thank you for letting us know how you got along.


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## WildAcreFarms (Apr 6, 2011)

*HErd BOund*

One of the members wrote a free online book and it covers a LOT of these leadership issues. I SO feel for you I have an Arabian that i'm working through the same issues with. I haul her to my trainers and work there for two hours once a week. (that includes round pen riding and bath afterwards.) I do all the work and my trainer helps from the sidelines.

I could ride her before that but I'm wanting to use her for dressage so were working on working together. My trainer says were giving ME a promotion and her a Demotion LOL Nice way to say my leadership skills need a little work  My horse is 9 and green broke. she came from an abusive background. she didn't bond with me until she had been here about a year. I think she is an Arab that has always had to take care of herself so iot's hard fopr her to turn that trust over to me but it IS happening. slowly but shurly we make progress. YOu will too. 

If you get a chance look up that Ebook H.E.R.D. by herdbound. it has a lot of info on leadership. i really enjoyed it.


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