# Dealing with the alpha mare



## steedaunh32 (Jun 5, 2008)

I recently bought my 5yo APHA mare for trail riding, arena work and future showing (hopefully). She is wonderful and respectful under saddle, and her ground manners are fine with me, but she is definitely the alpha mare and has no problem kicking at other horses and letting them know. I'm afraid that I, or someone else, is going to get caught in the crossfire of that behavior and I want to work on it with her, but I'm not sure where to start. An example, I walked her into her stall the other day and was taking off her halter when the horse next door (he has separation anxiety and crowds her; also bites her neck, etc. so he's kind of bratty) stuck his head over the side of the stall and pecked her, which caused her to pin her hears and start kicking. Thankfully I wasn't near her hindquarters (I was a second before, though) and didn't get hurt, but she cut open her leg and it shook me up a little bit. Any advice on this? We did end up moving her to a new stall...

I feel safe working with her on the ground but I sometimes find myself tensing up when we're walking around other horses or in the arena with other horses. I've never had an issue with her when she's tacked up - it's like she submits to me, and she's wonderful with other horses on the trail, in the arena, etc. It's just turnout and that one incident in her stall. She definitely doesn't take crap from other horses but I just don't want to end up in the middle of that or worse, someone else. Thanks for any help!


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## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

Just don't let her. She shouldn't be allowed to give anybody a dirty look, let alone kick, when you're near. 

I had this problem, too, when we brought a new pony home. The horse in question was not a dominant type at all, and so when she realized the pony was actually BELOW her, she went into total biotch mode to make sure it stayed that way. It's a long story, but she actually ended up hurting herself trying to beat up the pony.

Well, what I did was get someone else to hold the other horse and I put the aggressive mare on a lead line and brought her close. Whenever my horse pinned her ears and tried to get nasty, I gave her a really good, hard crack on the shoulder with the lead rope. A few moments later she tried again, another good crack. It took just two or three times before she was over it completely, and I've never had a problem with her since.

That's just what I would do...I'm sure you'll get more replies.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

My main horse happens to be the "alpha mare". Boy oh boy does it get interesting sometimes. She still tries to push me around, and she's 10! 

What I do is just out-boss the bossy. If she tries to push me over, I'll push her over, just twice as far. If she gets niggly at other horses, she can expect a little smack, or get her head turned away from the other horse and then try again, if she still gets niggly, she'll get a smack. 

They're just like bad children, sometimes they need a spanking, time out, and to be grounded.

If my mare is being especially mean or something at home, she gets caught, rode, and put in "solitary confinement" for a day or two. That normally straightens her out for a bit.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

steedaunh32 said:


> I recently bought my 5yo APHA mare for trail riding, arena work and future showing (hopefully). She is wonderful and respectful under saddle, and her ground manners are fine with me, but she is definitely the alpha mare and has no problem kicking at other horses and letting them know. I'm afraid that I, or someone else, is going to get caught in the crossfire of that behavior and I want to work on it with her, but I'm not sure where to start. An example, I walked her into her stall the other day and was taking off her halter when the horse next door (he has separation anxiety and crowds her; also bites her neck, etc. so he's kind of bratty) stuck his head over the side of the stall and pecked her, which caused her to pin her hears and start kicking. Thankfully I wasn't near her hindquarters (I was a second before, though) and didn't get hurt, but she cut open her leg and it shook me up a little bit. Any advice on this? We did end up moving her to a new stall…


Well, I guess I'm a bit different…when a horse is with me I take care of it, including making sure that it is safe from other horses. When I go into a herd of horses they part like the red sea for me and whichever one of their herdmates I'm leading out. I also do not allow the horse I'm leading to intimidate others either. I do not allow foolishness by other horses around any horse I'm working with. If Mr. Separation Anxiety had done that and I was with her, he'd of gotten an AAACCKKK from me accompanied by a loud WHACK on the stall wall as a warning to him to keep his own nose where it belongs and if he didn't, I'd push it back myself. The horse I'm working with should never feel it must defend itself when I'm around. Ever. It's my job to maintain order…not the horses.


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## steedaunh32 (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks for the replies. I understand where everyone is coming from and although I agree with you Horse Poor, my mare's behavior is still unacceptable and while I feel it's not my place to train/discipline others' horses (within reason, if it's a safety issue I will), my mare is the dominant one and I'm not ok with her kicking and pinning her ears while I'm around. If she wants to be the boss in the pasture that's fine, but not with me. She went to kick at a pasture buddy who got too close to her butt (yes she's in heat) while I was leading her out and she got a crack with the end of the lead rope on her shoulder and I quickly started to make her work, turning her in tight circles until she got the point.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

steedaunh32 said:


> Thanks for the replies. I understand where everyone is coming from and although I agree with you Horse Poor, my mare's behavior is still unacceptable and while I feel it's not my place to train/discipline others' horses (within reason, if it's a safety issue I will), my mare is the dominant one and I'm not ok with her kicking and pinning her ears while I'm around. If she wants to be the boss in the pasture that's fine, but not with me. She went to kick at a pasture buddy who got too close to her butt (yes she's in heat) while I was leading her out and she got a crack with the end of the lead rope on her shoulder and I quickly started to make her work, turning her in tight circles until she got the point.


I'm with HorsePoor and I think you should maybe look at it the other way around. You are disciplining your horse for protecting herself. If you won't do it for her, then she is entitled to do that.

If you had a daughter and a boy made a pest of himself, then if you didn't protect her, she has the right to do it herself. As your mare sese it, this is no different. What is the alternative? If she doesn't threaten the other horse he will try to mount her.

A true 'leader' will take care of these things for her. Then she doesn't have to and the behaviour will cease.

So when another horse came to 'interrupt' You should be sending them away. That tells all the horses that you are the leader and what is acceptable when you are around the herd.


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## outnabout (Jul 23, 2010)

Doe said:


> A true 'leader' will take care of these things for her. Then she doesn't have to and the behaviour will cease.
> 
> So when another horse came to 'interrupt' You should be sending them away. That tells all the horses that you are the leader and what is acceptable when you are around the herd.


I agree. I learned the hard way (nothing but a rope burn on my arm, thank goodness) a couple years ago to keep other horses away from the one I'm leading in the pasture, and this horse was not an alpha. 

My Nessie is the alpha in her pasture, and when I catch her I shoo the others away. It is about my safety, and not trying to change natural animal behavior. I would do the same for any horse in a herd. We have a couple of new horses out there that crowd us at the gate when I take her in for feeding. She WILL kick at them, so I shoo them off from the gate as we approach. Otherwise, I'm just asking to get hurt. 

From the human perspective, my alpha mare could be considered mean to other horses, but in the natural horse world they respect her for her dominance. I don't scold her for pinning her ears at the other horses, but will if she pins her ears at a human. After I cared for her and got her all fat and happy, we definitely had some respect issues between me and her, and I got help to get her back in line. She is an awesome horse.

There is one woman at my barn who calls her the bwitch, and goes on and on about how she is not "nice" to anyone but me because of her alpha behavior with other horses. I'm always telling her, no, not a bwitch, but the alpha. Helps too to know that this woman is always drunk and is scared to even mount a horse...


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

have you ever considered simple kick chains


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

What would a kick chain accomplish? What advantages do you feel it offers, and what disadvantages?


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

*aqha professional horseman*

if you use the type of kickchain that in suggesting it would teach the horse that everytime it kicks it hurts itself and you wont be nowhere around im suggesting a dog collar hooked snug above the hock so it cant slide down with a heavy piece of chain about 16 inches long just on the leg they kick with if its both legs use two seperate devices


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## steedaunh32 (Jun 5, 2008)

Ok I understand what everyone is saying - if I'm the "boss" than there should/would be no reason for her to defend herself...but she's not always defending herself, half the time it's just her being dominant. When I turn her out and a horse comes up slowly to her, just to sniff and say hello, check her out, she pins her ears and kicks. To me that's not self-defense, that's a bad attitude. Now I can shoo away that other her but her behavior is not acceptable and dangerous, much more than the other curious horse. Yes I yelled at the horse that bit her but she's the one kicking and screaming. I have watched her in the pasture as well and she will start things with other horses, and finish something if it's started with her for sure. Under saddle she is a dream and she submits to her rider - lazy actually - but she has a dominant personality and it's not always or even usually a defensive thing...


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

rob said:


> if you use the type of kickchain that in suggesting it would teach the horse that everytime it kicks it hurts itself and you wont be nowhere around im suggesting a dog collar hooked snug above the hock so it cant slide down with a heavy piece of chain about 16 inches long just on the leg they kick with if its both legs use two seperate devices


As per my question. What does this achieve? These are perfectly normal behaviours for a horse. Stop treating the symptom and treat the cause.

If you insist on treating the symptom then you will just create more problems. Kick chains accomplish nothing positive In cases such as these. Think about it.


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

rob said:


> if you use the type of kickchain that in suggesting it would teach the horse that everytime it kicks it hurts itself and you wont be nowhere around im suggesting a dog collar hooked snug above the hock so it cant slide down with a heavy piece of chain about 16 inches long just on the leg they kick with if its both legs use two seperate devices


Kick chains are used for stall vices - stall kicking and pawing - not for what we are talking about.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

kickchains dont have a boundry


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

rob said:


> kickchains dont have a boundry


So please educate me. How do you use them in a field? What do they achieve? What are the positives and the negatives?


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

please explain to me in a short version what this mare does from start to finish


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## steedaunh32 (Jun 5, 2008)

rob said:


> please explain to me in a short version what this mare does from start to finish


Ok I've never had issues with her disrespecting me when grooming, mucking her stall, feeding, leading, etc. She's pretty quiet on the ground. Same goes for under saddle. Occasionally (usually when she's in heat) she will pin her ears and stop when we're riding, but I gently push her through it and she goes. The problem I have is when I'm turning her out/bringing her in, her behavior with other horses is unacceptable to me. She's basically a bully. If any horse comes up to sniff her or check her out, she'll pin her ears and kick one or two times. Same goes for bringing her into her stall. Her neighbor his noisy and she'll do the same thing, and I'm afraid I will, or someone else will get caught in the crossfire of this. I don't necessarily see this as self defense on her part so although I can shoo away the other horses, I feel her behavior is unsafe and I want to work on it with her because I am afraid that sooner or later someone will get hurt. She will also pick fights and certainly finish them with other horses in turnout. In the arena and/or on trail she gets along fine with everyone, she's just a bully.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

is she the biggest or oldest mare in the pasture


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Size and (normally) age have nothing to do with a horse's dominance level.
I don't see why kick chains would be thought about for this aside from maybe while she's actually riding her in an arena or such (and not dog collars with chains attached to them, kick chains are actually on retail, not homemade whatever you want to call it. They're suppose to go on the coronet band, not above the hock), never while trail riding, left on in the pasture, etc.
Now, I've been working with/riding a kicker, and I've only gotten two kicks out of her, when it was at least 15 kicks per ride for anyone else. At home, I've disciplined other horses that run up behind her, nibble on her, etc. But I also discipline her if she pins her ears/kicks at a horse I'm riding with, on trail with, standing with at a show, etc. There are different things that happen, so they need to be addressed as different things, not just all lumped together because they all cause her to kick. I have no problem with smacking someone else's horse if it's crowding my horse, me, or whatever. If my horse kicks, I still reprimand her unless she was kicked first. I understand kicking at all (even when she was kicked at/kicked first) is frowned upon, but I won't discipline her for protecting herself when I can't.
So, you must look at everything as for possibly a different reason than another. So she kicked randomly in the field where there was obviously no danger? Discipline her for it. She kicked whenthe horse in the next stall bit her? Discipline the neighbour, not her, for his annoyance.
Just because it ends with the same result, doesn't mean it's the same problem. Lucky's lead mare here, but it she wants to kick while I'm handling her, I'm going to make her wish she never would've even thought about it. It's not just to have the control, it's because it's not safe. At all. A horse that kicks needs issues (rarely just one issue) worked on, and they can't do it our preferred way themselves if we don't teach them to first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

rob said:


> is she the biggest or oldest mare in the pasture


 Just because they are the biggest or oldest, does not make them the lead horse. Being the most dominant does and having the attitude of one. Our 16 hand Harley is definitely under the two younger and smaller geldings. I've also seen a smaller Appy mare that was lead over several larger horses.

I also agree that chains are not the right answer.

OP - If she is doing inappropriate behavior when you are around, she needs to be corrected or shown that it's unacceptable. If another horse is causing her to act that way, even if it's not your horse, I would still correct that horse too. It's endangering yourself and you need *your* safety first. They do learn that there is a difference of when a human is around and when they are let out on their own. If it's happening in the stall, check with the BM or BO about switching stalls.

For your horse, I would start with giving the lead rope a jerk to get her to remember she is with you and not on her own. If she continues, although it may be hard to do in a stall, I would make her work somehow, again geting her attention back on you. Try backing her around her stall, or yielding her front end or rear. If it is when you are taking her in or out, back her away from the gate. It may be towards the other horse, which should cause it to move away, but you are still controlling her and where she goes. Show her this by having her not back straight but in a serpentine. Show her some attitude of your own and that you *really* don't like what she is doing.

Just my opinions and what I would do.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

pulling on a halter is on the wrong end of kicking.and if you put kickchains around the coronet band,then you are right,leave them off cause all that does is make the chain hit the dirt


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## outnabout (Jul 23, 2010)

rob said:


> pulling on a halter is on the wrong end of kicking.and if you put kickchains around the coronet band,then you are right,leave them off cause all that does is make the chain hit the dirt


A jerk with a rope halter is to get the horse's attention, not to stop it from kicking.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Kickchains on the coronet bands don't just hit dirt. They hit the fetlock DURING the kick.
But overall, kick chains don't really have a high success rate, from what I've seen (both types). There's no garuntee that the horse won't just get more annoyed because there's something "kicking back", so it's not a fix-all solution in itself, any way you think about it.
You don't pull on the halter, it's a jerk.
And like outnabout said, it's to get the horse's attention on you, not to stop it from kicking.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

ok,you got her attention,but only until she has the opportunity to kick again and if she gets into a kicking frenzy,she wont feel that halter


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

No, she will feel that rope halter, because it isn't a constant pressure. A constant pressure won't do anything for their attention, but a jerk with some knots on pressure points will.
Buy regardless, if you use it correctly, she won't get into that "kicking frenzy" to ignore anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## outnabout (Jul 23, 2010)

rob said:


> ok,you got her attention,but only until she has the opportunity to kick again and if she gets into a kicking frenzy,she wont feel that halter


The idea is to prevent the kicking frenzy in the first place. Which goes back to what Iseul said about looking at the trigger for kicking, rather than just correcting the kicking reaction to the trigger.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

i dont believe that bumping on a rope halter is going to stop that trigger


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## pintophile (May 18, 2011)

rob said:


> i dont believe that bumping on a rope halter is going to stop that trigger


A good crack on the shoulder will :wink:


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

Iseul said:


> Kickchains on the coronet bands don't just hit dirt. They hit the fetlock DURING the kick.
> But overall, kick chains don't really have a high success rate, from what I've seen (both types). There's no garuntee that the horse won't just get more annoyed because there's something "kicking back", so it's not a fix-all solution in itself, any way you think about it.
> You don't pull on the halter, it's a jerk.
> And like outnabout said, it's to get the horse's attention on you, not to stop it from kicking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you might get her attention up front,but that halter wont stop her from kicking something coming up behind her


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

rob said:


> i dont believe that bumping on a rope halter is going to stop that trigger


What do you think will actually prevent it then?
I'm curious.
Eta-
If allthe attention is on you, she won't be worrying about that horse coming up behind her, because she's paying attention to YOU, not that other horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

in the barn is not that much of a problem.slap the horse reaching at her to teach him some manners and to keep to himself.why not try turning her out with an old gelding thats just a little more ornery than her and let him put her in her place


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

I also don't agree that a kicking chain is the answer here. I lump them in with draw reins, training forks, etc, etc, etc. All things that are used to skirt around an issue quickly instead of actually taking the time to fix a behavior or train something correctly. Not to mention horses aren't just big, dumb animals and they know as soon as the gadget is taken away. 

For me, I don't care if the horse is the boss or alpha. In the pasture that is just fine. They can sort it out amongst themselves. When being handled by any human, the human is the boss not the horse. I have a very dominant mare in my herd and she absolutely rules the roost to the point where she has been loaned out many a time to put a rank stud in his place. But she knows she better not dare to act that way to me or any other human or animal while being handled or ridden. I agree with keeping her attention focused on you, a quick tug of the halter to say "hey, focus here" and if behavior continues, escalate the repurcussions. Keep her nose just enough so she can't turn tail to you and spank her butt with the end of your rope, a short whip, doggin' bat, etc. Put her in a position to test her but not so much to where you can get another horse hurt. 

If another horse initiates (such as the next door stall neighbor) I would be a little more lenient of the behavior. Since the neighbor isn't yours I would be a bit hesitant to correct it until you speak with the owner first. If owner is okay with that then correct the initiator first. If the owner is not, speak with your BO and see if you could change stalls.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

And I can garuntee you that a lot of people will confront you and be upset if you just smack whatever horse comes near yours that ISN'T yours.
And I can't see how putting the mare in with some random ****y gelding will help? I can't see putting two horses together that will just kick each other day in, day out. It's not practical, safe, etc. I don't want my horse in with one who is constantly going to go at him/her because my horse kicks sometimes.
And, maybe there isn't another horse that's more dominant than her mare in the first place, it's not a practical "fix".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

what if your owner or bo isnt around and the neighbor grabs you instead


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## outnabout (Jul 23, 2010)

rob said:


> i dont believe that bumping on a rope halter is going to stop that trigger


No, it won't.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

how do you people think horses lived all these years in the wild. if one was a picker,then another one would come and put it in its place


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

Iseul said:


> And I can garuntee you that a lot of people will confront you and be upset if you just smack whatever horse comes near yours that ISN'T yours.
> And I can't see how putting the mare in with some random ****y gelding will help? I can't see putting two horses together that will just kick each other day in, day out. It's not practical, safe, etc. I don't want my horse in with one who is constantly going to go at him/her because my horse kicks sometimes.
> And, maybe there isn't another horse that's more dominant than her mare in the first place, it's not a practical "fix".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 when a horse comes to my barn for training,i dont need permission to put manners on it,especially if its a threat or a problem,cause its there to be trained in every aspect


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## outnabout (Jul 23, 2010)

pintophile said:


> A good crack on the shoulder will :wink:


No, it won't. What I mean by "trigger" is something that causes a reaction. The reaction is kicking. The kicking could be caused by any number of triggers. Without observing the horse's behavior it is very difficult to know what the triggers are for kicking.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

i agree.its hard to solve a problem when you are not there.


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## outnabout (Jul 23, 2010)

outnabout said:


> No, it won't. What I mean by "trigger" is something that causes a reaction. The reaction is kicking. The kicking could be caused by any number of triggers. Without observing the horse's behavior it is very difficult to know what the triggers are for kicking.


OK, here is an analogy: If I am driving in my car on the freeway and the car next to me doesn't see me and begins to change lanes, that would result in a crash. So I honk my horn at the other driver without even thinking about it. The trigger is the car changing lanes. The reaction is my honking the horn.

One trigger for this horse kicking was not getting along with neighboring horse in stall. That is an easy fix: change the stall. The trigger is gone. No more reaction.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

outnabout said:


> No, it won't. What I mean by "trigger" is something that causes a reaction. The reaction is kicking. The kicking could be caused by any number of triggers. Without observing the horse's behavior it is very difficult to know what the triggers are for kicking.


i have never seen a horse kick with its shoulder,so why hit it there,to get its attention or show your authority


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

One horse shouldn't be able to reach another horse. There should be better barricades in place.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

steedaunh32 said:


> stuck his head over the side of the stall and pecked her, which caused her to pin her hears and start kicking.


That's entirely normal, reasonable behaviour. Don't put your mare into close, confined proximity with a horse that's going to hassle her, if you don't want to see that behaviour.



> I sometimes find myself tensing up when we're walking around other horses or in the arena with other horses. I've never had an issue with her when she's tacked up - it's like she submits to me, and she's wonderful with other horses on the trail, in the arena,


That she 'submits' to you in this manner is good, and I would be prepared to reinforce that whenever needed, that she understands she's not allowed to 'play politics' when you're handling her(except in above situation, I think it's unreasonable to put her in that situation & expect her not to react). That you get 'tense' around other horses though could well translate that you're insecure & so she needs to take charge & look out for the both of you around other horses.



> It's just turnout and that one incident in her stall. She definitely doesn't take crap from other horses but I just don't want to end up in the middle of that or worse, someone else.


Without giving any detail, I'm guessing she's just being a horse. That's what they do. Yes, be aware & don't get in the middle of it, and if you don't have control of others going into the paddock, put a sign on the gate that says 'horses are potentially dangerous, reactive animals - enter at own risk'. 

If it's not a case of her feeling the need to defend herself because of other horses encroaching or being rude when she's trapped on lead (in which case YOU need to take charge to ensure other horses don't do that, so she doesn't feel she has no choice), I would 'come down on her' for it, as, while it's natural, acceptable behaviour of itself, for safety's sake, I teach horses that when I'm around, I'm King Pin, no one is allowed to play politics with each other in my presence. *Just don't take it for granted it will never happen, so stay safe.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

This thread is from 2011 and I don't know that the OP is even around any longer.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

QHriderKE said:


> She still tries to push me around, and she's 10!
> 
> What I do is just out-boss the bossy. If she tries to push me over, I'll push her over, just twice as far.


I think the reason she keeps trying is because you're just 'playing dominance games' back at her. Whereas a horse who didn't WANT to play at dominance games would not do that to her. They'd either do as she says, stay away from her, or INSTANTLY come down like a ton of bricks(& then be prepared to outfight her if she came back at them).



> They're just like bad children, sometimes they need a spanking, time out, and to be grounded. ... she gets caught, rode, and put in "solitary confinement" for a day or two.


Not in the least - horses simply do not think like that. They do what works & quit doing what doesn't work. 

If they're 'bad' it is because either they're testing out a behaviour to see if it works, or they have learned, thru repetition, that it is OK/does work. IOW, if the horse repeatedly does something, you need to realise she has been *trained* to do that, intentionally, or by you or otherwise.

Horses also need *instant* feedback, consequences, to 'join the dots', and if you're going to punish(or reward for that matter) something, it needs to be AT THE TIME OF the behaviour you wish to associate it with. 2 _seconds _is too late, let alone 2 minutes, hours or DAYS! So, if you wish to punish her for something in the paddock, by the time you've gone & caught her it's WAY too late, let alone rode(I gather being ridden is a punishment to her), let alone being confined.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

rob said:


> how do you people think horses lived all these years in the wild. if one was a picker,then another one would come and put it in its place



It has been noted by those that study horses in the wild that there are no "pickers". There is no "alpha" or pecking order in a herd of horses that are not subjected to the human stresses of domestication. All of the negative behaviours that we see in our domesticated horses are created by us and the environmental restrictions we place on them. 99.9 % of negative behaviours can be simplified down to a root cause which is anxiety (discounting physical/pain issues of course). 



There is no age or size limit for a horse to develop bullying or domineering behaviour in order to cope with anxiety. My rising 2 year old was pushing around a mare that was 10 years older and out weighed her by about 500kg - and all the people around her. By eliminating her anxiety I eliminated the dangerous behaviour. I didn't have to use kick chains or any kind of device to help her, in fact they would have been detrimental to giving her peace of mind.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Oh, I just saw QtrBels post - I am on a ghost thread lol! 



I do find it fascinating though, how much my knowledge and understanding of horse behaviour has evolved over the decades. Not just mine but a lot of people's I think. How many people would write a post encouraging others to use something as barbaric as kick chains today, I wonder?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

*MOD NOTE*

Someone revived this thread, then their post was removed, leaving it looking 'new' for others of us to comment on without realising. I am going to close this thread, to save others wasting their time replying to a poster who is probably looong gone.

Cheers!
Loosie


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