# Gah I need help. We can't lope a circle!



## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

Sorry for double posting but I forgot to add that when I try to lope him in a circle and I don't let him drop his shoulder in he tries to just race around the arena and be an idiot about everything. Every once in a while he will stop pretty quickly while he is running which is pretty dangerous because I will still be trying to work on the canter and he just stops. I don't know what to do. He either races around and drops his shoulder in and pretends like he forgot all of the training or he slams on his brakes (Which the trainer worked with him on and he hadn't done it in a while)
I am thinking he might be trying to figure out what he can get away with but I don't want him to think like that. I want him to know that it will be easier for him to just do the simple things I want. I just don't know what to do.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Does he fall into the cirle going both directions?
Does he do this for all who ride him?

I am fairly certain that there is something in your body position that is causing him to fall into the circle. It is almost always rider body position error. Be sure you are not leaning to the inside or twisting your upper body to the outside. or?
The only other thing would be a bad stiffness in his body that makes it hard for him to bend one way , easier antoher way.

Do you ride in a snaffle? If you are using a curb bit and neck reining, then my suggestion wont' be good. I suggest, in a snaffle, rather than trying to move him out of the circle by spurring him with your inside leg, you bend him toward the INSIDE with your inside rein, move your outside rein off a bit from his neck to open the "door" on that side, step into your outside stirrup to weight it more, and put your inside leg on. YOu want to cause him to almost overbend to the inside and drift outward a step or two, and he may overcompensate and drift out through his outside shoulder at first, but you can reduce that later.

the message is, "pick up your inside shoulder, bend to the inside, and move off my inside leg, " even if you do a "drift" outward,. making your cirlce larger.


I would go back to working on having him keep the inside shoulder up and have a correct bend to the inside (minimal) at the WALK and the TROT, first.

and use a snaffle, too.


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

He really only does it going to the right. He is in a tender touch bit. He runs through a snaffle bit and he seems to like the bit he has. I have to go back to ground work for a bit because I hurt my hip the last time I rode him. I might be leaning (I will need to watch that because I am sure I probably do lean a bit). And going to the right if I take my leg off of him and use his rein he really like cuts right through the circle. I will try to get a video the next time I ride him.
I will try and see if anyone else can ride him and see if it is me that is causing him to fall in or if he does it with other people.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

And-don't let him Pi$$ you off! I swear, mine takes pride in that. Keep your patience and be persistent and consistent. Keep in mind that is takes many times longer to UNLEARN the incorrect than it does to learn the correct. 

THe other think that helps me is to get it right once, maybe twice, in the beginning-then quit and move on to something else for a while. That way you are always ending when he does it right, which is how you always want to end. 

I also think tying him for "punishment" is a bit ridiculous. Do you really think he knows why he is tied? No.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I agree with the above posters.

However, I have to say my little colt right now does this. I tried being nice and doing everything that tinylily said. He still did it. One day I got so frustrated and grabbed my over and under and just nailed his inside shoulder and spun him into the ground the opposite direction (towards the outside) and by the time I was done, he looked like I'd just killed him.

He has not dropped his shoulder once since then.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> One day I got so frustrated and grabbed my over and under and just nailed his inside shoulder and spun him into the ground the opposite direction (towards the outside) and by the time I was done, he looked like I'd just killed him.


Ok..Definitely don't do that..EVER. To me, barrel racers using tools such as whips and spurs (during at home work) is a crutch for a hole in the training and consistency of doing the correct thing while riding..I'm not saying you're messing your horse up and not being consistent. What I mean is, are you being consistent and riding your horse in the same way the trainer did? 

Tinyliny gave you VERY good advice and information. I would slow down and start over, call your trainer and explain your problem. She should be able to help you fix your problem better than we can, she knows you and your horse.You need to go back and work on flexing, release, and extension work at a slower pace. I'm betting that using your spurs is what is causing him to "race around the arena". Not every horse can perform or work well in spurs..I don't wear spurs at all..Once you have your horse flexing nice at a walk and trot in a circle you can bump up the pace to a lope..Until you have the basics down pat at a walk you can't ask for speed.

What bit are you currently riding him in? We could give you a lot better advice with a video..


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I tried the other things. The right thing is easy and the wrong thing is hard. It worked for me and he hasn't once dropped his shoulder, therefore no more training hole. Think me a horrible person if you'd like, as I mentioned it was a last resort. And that particular colt is a little deadhead. So I woke him up.

I'm not saying the OP should immediately start out doing this. You can see above that I did agree to the methods previously posted and did state I tried all of what Tinylily said first. And those methods do work. Just not on that one colt, and you never know when you might get a horse like the colt who does need to get hiimself smacked once before he pays attention.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

DrumRunner said:


> Ok..Definitely don't do that..EVER. To me, barrel racers using tools such as whips and spurs (during at home work) is a crutch for a hole in the training and consistency of doing the correct thing while riding..I'm not saying you're messing your horse up and not being consistent. What I mean is, are you being consistent and riding your horse in the same way the trainer did?
> 
> Tinyliny gave you VERY good advice and information. I would slow down and start over, call your trainer and explain your problem. She should be able to help you fix your problem better than we can, she knows you and your horse.You need to go back and work on flexing, release, and extension work at a slower pace. I'm betting that using your spurs is what is causing him to "race around the arena". Not every horse can perform or work well in spurs..I don't wear spurs at all..Once you have your horse flexing nice at a walk and trot in a circle you can bump up the pace to a lope..Until you have the basics down pat at a walk you can't ask for speed.
> 
> What bit are you currently riding him in? We could give you a lot better advice with a video..


Did I miss her saying she was a barrel racer? I thought perhaps she was a reiner, but it does't matter. THere are some western disciplines where we wear spurs. THey are NOT a "crutch for holes in the training", at all. I frankly find that presumptuous and offensive. THey are used for refinement. (like shifting hips, etc). I think you will be hard pressed to find a competitive (not Pat Parelli type) reiner without them. Just because they are there does not mean they are being used, either, by the way. But-they are pretty much ALL started in them, from day one. THey learn to live with them. Period. THey learn to work with them. Like I said-just because they are there, doesn't mean they are used, but they are there to reinforce the cues given.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> Did I miss her saying she was a barrel racer? I thought perhaps she was a reiner, but it does't matter. THere are some western disciplines where we wear spurs. THey are NOT a "crutch for holes in the training", at all. I frankly find that presumptuous and offensive. THey are used for refinement. (like shifting hips, etc). I think you will be hard pressed to find a competitive (not Pat Parelli type) reiner without them. Just because they are there does not mean they are being used, either, by the way. But-they are pretty much ALL started in them, from day one. THey learn to live with them. Period. THey learn to work with them. Like I said-just because they are there, doesn't mean they are used, but they are there to reinforce the cues given.


Yes, she barrel races and games..

That's why I said barrel racers...You took that the wrong way or I didn't word it well enough...I've ridden Western Pleasure, Reining, and Cutting horses and COMPLETELY understand their need and use of spurs. When it comes to spurs worn by runners who use them for more of a "force" to do something than more of a slight movement for reiners and such is a completely different matter..I know how it works for judged classes and respect that. Especially where you want to show as light as pressure as possible in classes like the Reining and Western Pleasure..So, didn't mean to offend you and I'm definitely not being presumptuous. I've been around the ball park long enough to understand the game.


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## lubylol (Aug 8, 2011)

Although I do agree with DrumRunner on SorrelHorse's point....I admit I've done that before. 

One time Cowboy almost ran me into a standard and I got so frustrated so I made him back up. He didn't listen so I used my crop on him and made him back up almost the whole length of the ring. Needless to say he backs up on a dime now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Even as you post this, OP, you seem very wound up and frustrated. I'm sure your horse feels the same way too. He isn't doing this to tip your milk jug or make your riding feel miserable. 

He sounds like he needs you to have more weight on your outside seatbone and leg.. help him from not keeling over. 

But get it down at the jog first.. don't rush to lope until it's well and use that inside leg and rein to keep him from leaning in. 

Basics basics basics. And don't forget to breathe  It helps. 

Also, do something you're BOTH good at. That will make you feel better while you work through this rough patch.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

For clarification, I showed primarily reining and reined cowhorse until I recently (This year) dropped it entirely to focus only on gaming (Before I only did gymkhanas or barrel races when it didn't conflict with the NRCHA/ORHA stuff I was doing) but my barrel horses have reining foundation (Or at least, all of them but the main horse do, ironic with all my preaching and support of it)

I can understand why you think I was being harsh with that colt. I understand the use of an over and under and spurs as well. I understand ask-tell-demand, and also understand your concern. Thank you for it, but for that one time I felt that trying to use subtle cues wasn't going to help me.

For the sake of this thread, OP, have you ridden lately to try anything? How has it been going?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

A person must "earn" their spurs. If the rider doesn't have the body and leg control yet, they should not be in spurs. I very rarely wear spurs because I dont' trust myself.

It's possible the the rider is not using spurs well. If this is a case of the horse being "naughty" and I think this probably is part of the problem, discipline meted out with a crop or the tail end of the rein is better than with spurs.
They are for refinement, and in this case , it sounds like she is a long way from that, for the time being.

.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

SorrelHorse said:


> For clarification, I showed primarily reining and reined cowhorse until I recently (This year) dropped it entirely to focus only on gaming (Before I only did gymkhanas or barrel races when it didn't conflict with the NRCHA/ORHA stuff I was doing) but my barrel horses have reining foundation (Or at least, all of them but the main horse do, ironic with all my preaching and support of it)
> 
> I can understand why you think I was being harsh with that colt. I understand the use of an over and under and spurs as well. I understand ask-tell-demand, and also understand your concern. Thank you for it, but for that one time I felt that trying to use subtle cues wasn't going to help me.
> 
> For the sake of this thread, OP, have you ridden lately to try anything? How has it been going?


I really don't understand why you are being so defensive about it...I never said you were a bad rider or judged you in anyway..I just told the OP to not do that with the over and under, it doesn't seem like that will fix her problem at all. I would understand why your getting defensive if I outright said "SorrelHorse, you can't ride, that is why." I have never said anything even remotely close to something like that to you and I didn't mean it in my post in any way...Things can be taken VERY wrong over the internet and not being able to hear the tone in which things are meant.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm not being defensive, I'm explaining myself. The OP, I agree with you, needs to know that that is not a first go-to method to use. I elaborated on why I would do that in that current situation.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Paintluver
I don't mean you are a bad rider by saying that maybe you aren't ready for spurs. I just meant that if you might be having trouble with body position, and if you are finding yourself swept up into emotional reactions, then I would ditch the spurs and back up a bit.
You find yourself in a "battle" mentality with Romeo, it is for sure he feels that way too.
When things get at that place where you are butting heads, do something else and find something that he does well , so you can say, and I mean literally say out loud with your mouth, "Thank you." or if you are a bit murphed , say "Thank you, finally!"

Make the canter circles bigger, too.

I know, from other posts you've made, that Romeo is not an easy horse.


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## ThursdayNext (Oct 18, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> I really don't understand why you are being so defensive about it...I never said you were a bad rider or judged you in anyway..I just told the OP to not do that with the over and under, it doesn't seem like that will fix her problem at all. I would understand why your getting defensive if I outright said "SorrelHorse, you can't ride, that is why." I have never said anything even remotely close to something like that to you and I didn't mean it in my post in any way...Things can be taken VERY wrong over the internet and not being able to hear the tone in which things are meant.


Ah...part of the problem here is that it is _SorrelHorse _that did the thing with the over-and-under. The OP is _not_ SorrelHorse, it is _Paintluver,_ who hasn't mentioned doing anything at all with an over and under.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

ThursdayNext said:


> Ah...part of the problem here is that it is _SorrelHorse _that did the thing with the over-and-under. The OP is _not_ SorrelHorse, it is _Paintluver,_ who hasn't mentioned doing anything at all with an over and under.


Please, point out to me where I said the OP did? I fail to see it, in fact I don't think I did at all..Hmm, nope. I didn't... She asked for advice on what would help her and her horse and I gave her that advice..

Why people (general people) try to mix up things said in a thread I have no idea...


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

NO idea why this posted.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

paintluver said:


> He really only does it going to the right. He is in a tender touch bit. He runs through a snaffle bit and he seems to like the bit he has. I have to go back to ground work for a bit because I hurt my hip the last time I rode him. I might be leaning (I will need to watch that because I am sure I probably do lean a bit). And going to the right if I take my leg off of him and use his rein he really like cuts right through the circle. I will try to get a video the next time I ride him.
> I will try and see if anyone else can ride him and see if it is me that is causing him to fall in or if he does it with other people.


How did the trainer stop him from dropping to the inside?


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

If you've ruled out pain issues and stiffness (if stiff do a lot of bending on the stiff side) then he is just outsmarting you.

Don't feel bad -my mare did it to me too, and tries all the time...smart horses are a belssing as well as a curse sometimes lol. My coach could get on her and canter her around the entire arena easy peasy, I'd get on and she'd be lazy, not pick it up...pace a bit anf cut into the circles really sharp (which was because I didn't have enough weight in my outside stirrup and was leaning) anyways... at the end of it I wasn't being assertive enough and riding her in a way that keeps her balanced. I went on a long line so I didn't have to worry about steering, worked on my position and used a long crop utilizing the 'ask, tell - demand' ... so I would ask for the canter by cueing with my outside leg, if she didn't respond, I would give her a kick with the outside leg and if she didn't respond then I gave her a whack with the crop on the bum to tell her to get that back end in motion. 

Now I hardly have to bring my leg back to cue and she picks it up immediately. I think you just need to make sure you're balanced in the saddle and then show your hrose that you are the boss up there.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

kstinson said:


> If you've ruled out pain issues and stiffness (if stiff do a lot of bending on the stiff side) then he is just outsmarting you.
> 
> I think you just need to make sure you're balanced in the saddle


Why does it have to be only those two options?

A balanced horse barely leans in, but all horses do need help at some point, which is why there is shifting weight and rein aids. Without putting that weight to the outside, you are making it more difficult for the horse to be upright, and you are inadvertedly encouraging the horse to stay "motorcycled."

Now if I were riding my horse (and I ride him English but that shouldn't make too much a diff.) I put my weight in my outside seatbone and leg, bring my hands over to the outside to support that shoulder, and tap with my inside leg until he's back upright. Then I leave him alone and keep my position being careful not to creep my weight back to the inside and make sure I am not tipping my upper half. And we've only just started cantering and we've had no instances of motorcycling. Circles are harder on the horse than "going large" or having straight bits and corners. so just take it easy, and I'm sure you guys will be fine OP.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

paintluver,if you do make a video of this,please make sure your hands are in it too.i just want to see how you are guiding his front end.


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

It doesn’t have to be only those two options and I believe that more often than not it is a combination of things for a horse new to cantering. I did stress more than just being outsmarted or having stiff muscles if you read the entire post. 

In my experience if your horse isn’t doing what you ask you are asking wrong, 9 times out of 10 it is the rider. A horse that is having trouble not falling into a circle has either switched leads, or the rider is telling the horse with its body to turn in…or not telling him that he needs to stay out properly –which is essentially what you meant I imagine when you said “I put my weight in my outside seatbone and leg, bring my hands over to the outside to support that shoulder, and tap with my inside leg until he's back upright.” You are telling your horse that it is not okay to lean in and he needs to stay balanced and at the same time you are essentially rebalancing yourself as you had said you check your weight and make sure it is on the outside seatbone and leg. 

If she has ruled out stiffness as the issue for him, and tapping with her inside leg isn’t working with her horse, she may need to be more assertive so that she can get to the point where that works. That is wonderful that your horse responds to your tapping and doesn’t motorcycle around, but plenty of them do when they start out because they get excited and circles help to slow them down, they are extremely good for teaching a horse to pick up the correct lead. It may be harder on them if you are doing tight ones, but you don’t need to do tight circles to utilize it -even picking them up in the corner and doing a half circle to come out and go large will help with the leads. 

Since OP was asking for tips, those are some of the things I have learned from training/breaking young horses, they may not work for everyone as every horse is different, but they're effective for me.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Alright I'm following now, kstinson, and I did read the entire post I just came back to that first sentence to ask for clarification. 

That's how we started, though now (yeah it's not pretty on my part) he can pick it up on the straight so long as I've got him prepared right. Though I have to agree, circles in any gait are harder than going large. And maybe the horse is trying to tell her "too much too fast" by leaning in on those circles. 

Thanks for clarifying by the way.


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

For sure  I guess to me, if youre telling the horse to do something with your body without realizing it, the horse is outsmarting us because they're doing exactly what your body is telling them to. I hate when that happens... 

I've got my mare in the same place as you, she now can pick up the canter on a straight away, it's not always pretty lol, but she is doing it whereas the corners it is a seamless transition if I ask for it. In moderation, circles are good for a horse in all gaits. If you're riding properly it doesn't stress the horse and it builds muscles that they dont use on the straight aways. I think of my riding sessions as I would if I were going to the gym. Theoretically, I'd like my entire body to look great and be worked out (I'm not as dedicated to myself as my horse lol) but I try to do work that way with my horse too.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Skyseternalangel said:


> And maybe the horse is trying to tell her "too much too fast" by leaning in on those circles.


Actually he was going correctly and now is falling into old habits. The trainer worked that out of him so that is why I asked how the trainer corrected him.


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## ThursdayNext (Oct 18, 2011)

DrumRunner said:


> Please, point out to me where I said the OP did? I fail to see it, in fact I don't think I did at all..Hmm, nope. I didn't... She asked for advice on what would help her and her horse and I gave her that advice..
> 
> Why people (general people) try to mix up things said in a thread I have no idea...



Your post from today, 12:18am:
"..I just told the OP to not do that with the over and under, it doesn't seem like that will fix her problem at all."


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

ThursdayNext said:


> Your post from today, 12:18am:
> "..I just told the OP to not do that with the over and under, it doesn't seem like that will fix her problem at all."


Ok? Where are you getting that I said the OP was doing that to her horse? I don't know what you are reading but it's not the same thing I am..I *never* said the OP used the over and under....I quoted SorrelHorse and told the OP to NOT do that...That's it.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

sounds like y'all should put the over and unders away before they get you all in termoil.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

rob said:


> sounds like y'all should put the over and unders away before they get you all in termoil.


Are you kidding?? That makes sense! Why would anyone want to listen to that advice. I'd rather argue with a complete stranger over the internet who is trying to look cool and make me look like I have no idea what_ I _typed out and posted.. *Insert sarcasm here* :wink:


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## ThursdayNext (Oct 18, 2011)

Or you could fire off a bunch of inarticulate advice and jump all over a couple of complete strangers on the Internet in the process. Oh, wait. You already did!


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

ThursdayNext said:


> Or you could fire off a bunch of inarticulate advice and jump all over a couple of complete strangers on the Internet in the process. Oh, wait. You already did!


I'm not going to argue with you or be rude to you, but I would love for you to explain your above statement?


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

i want someone to explain how this cat fight is going to solve this person's problem.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

rob said:


> i want someone to explain how this cat fight is going to solve this person's problem.


Really I have no idea, I had said my piece in this thread and was done with it unless the OP wanted more help. I never intended for there to be a "cat fight" and don't know why I was pointed out and said that I was jumping all over people..I haven't in any way jumped on anyone.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Folks....if you can't stick to the question at hand, it is time to to surf the rest of the forum. Let's not sink into a couple of pages of "who said what and when". OK? 

Time to move on.


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## rob (Aug 8, 2011)

just a suggestion dr,be the grown up and let it slide.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

rob said:


> just a suggestion dr,be the grown up and let it slide.


 :wink:I intend to..


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Great! Thanks folks!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

mls said:


> How did the trainer stop him from dropping to the inside?


Exactly! If he did NOT do it before then something is wrong with the rider. Sorry. And it's true not just for OP, but for everyone saying "my horse started to do this or this incorrectly and getting worse". Why not to take some lessons from the same trainer, so the trainer could see what you do wrong and correct it RIGHT on spot? Or at least take a video so people could see it "live" and give advices based on what they see, not what they read. 

Wrong advices usually don't do any good for the horse, the rider, and training in general. And by "wrong" I mean "not applicable to the current situation" (because unless you see what's wrong the description doesn't always match the real problem).


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

Skyseternalangel said:


> *Even as you post this, OP, you seem very wound up and frustrated.* I'm sure your horse feels the same way too. He isn't doing this to tip your milk jug or make your riding feel miserable.
> 
> *He sounds like he needs you to have more weight on your outside seatbone and leg.. help him from not keeling over. *
> 
> ...


I am very frustrated. I will admit I get frustrated pretty easy and he knows that. I am trying to keep more weight on the outside I have noticed I have been kinda putting weight to the inside. Thank you very much 



SorrelHorse said:


> For the sake of this thread, OP, have you ridden lately to try anything? How has it been going?


I havent ridden in two days because last time I rode (When I was having the problems) I injured myself while I was riding him and I was told to take time off. But I am hopefully going to be going riding tomorrow.



tinyliny said:


> Paintluver
> *I don't mean you are a bad rider by saying that maybe you aren't ready for spurs. *I just meant that if you might be having trouble with body position, and if you are finding yourself swept up into emotional reactions, then I would ditch the spurs and back up a bit.
> You find yourself in a "battle" mentality with Romeo, it is for sure he feels that way too.
> *When things get at that place where you are butting heads, do something else and find something that he does well , so you can say, and I mean literally say out loud with your mouth, "Thank you." or if you are a bit murphed , say "Thank you, finally!"*
> ...


The only reason I have been wearing spurs is actually because my trainer told me to. When/if I ride him tomorrow (Depending on how my hip feels) I will ditch the spurs and try that. 
I will try finding something else to do that we are both good at. That is a good idea. I talk out loud to him all the time so I think I will be able to say that to him. (The other riders will be like uhhhh is she talking to the horse again?)lol thats ok though,
When I make the circles bigger he tries to just tear around the arena and hollow out his back so that is why I was trying small circles, but I am game for anything to try and fix this so I will try bigger circles.
He is not an easy horse, he is too smart for his own good.




mls said:


> How did the trainer stop him from dropping to the inside?


I believe she just cued him with her spurs and reins. I was able to correct him like that too but then he started doing all of this.



kstinson;1327096[B said:


> ]If you've ruled out pain issues and stiffness[/B] (if stiff do a lot of bending on the stiff side) then he is just outsmarting you.
> 
> Don't feel bad -my mare did it to me too, and tries all the time...smart horses are a belssing as well as a curse sometimes lol. My coach could get on her and canter her around the entire arena easy peasy, I'd get on and she'd be lazy, not pick it up...pace a bit anf cut into the circles really sharp *(which was because I didn't have enough weight in my outside stirrup and was leaning) anyways... at the end of it I wasn't being assertive enough and riding her in a way that keeps her balanced.* I went on a long line so I didn't have to worry about steering, worked on my position and used a long crop utilizing the 'ask, tell - demand' ... so I would ask for the canter by cueing with my outside leg, if she didn't respond, I would give her a kick with the outside leg and if she didn't respond then I gave her a whack with the crop on the bum to tell her to get that back end in motion.
> 
> Now I hardly have to bring my leg back to cue and she picks it up immediately. I think you just need to make sure you're balanced in the saddle and then show your hrose that you are the boss up there.


He shouldn't be stiff we flex and warm up really well before a ride, and I dont think he is in pain, I have done the test thing where you press down next to their spine and go all the way down to their tail and he never twitches or anything.
I probably am leaning to the side like what you were doing. When I ride him next I need to focus on what I am doing to try and help him.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Big hugs, OP. (Am I allowed to do that?) I hope you guys can figure it out! Maybe all you need is that weight shift 

Best of luck!


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Big hugs, OP. (Am I allowed to do that?) I hope you guys can figure it out! Maybe all you need is that weight shift
> 
> Best of luck!


Lol Thank you! I am hoping that is all we need. *Crosses fingers*


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## Hlover (Apr 17, 2011)

Well I think I might have a few tips. If your frustrated with your horse go back to basics you need to build back up whatever kinks you are having in your relationship that are frustrating both you and your horse. You want to build respect instead of domination like you said in your original post. Some ways to do that are JOIN UP. You can look it up I strongly recommend it. Even if you don't believe in natural horsemanship I can't tell you how important it has become with all my horse. It's nice to get my horses tuned up that way, and they gain respect in a neutral environment that they understand. Also lunging your horse might be a nice way to get him to not move out, and stop dropping his shoulder. Since you are in the middle of the circle you can ask your horse to find his balance (which is much easier when there is no rider on their back) , this will let him gain some muscle memory if the problem is stiffness, and it might indicate to you how much your riding is effecting the situation. Id also do some exercises to get your horse to limber up on both sides. Like asking your horse to brin
g his nose to your boot in the saddle. This will stretch both sides of his body, and make him more responsive to bending on a circle. If your horse is testing you, and your getting frustrated shake things up! you both need a change of scenery, and to try new things so you aren't stuck in that mind set. Lastly if you think your riding might be a problem in this case why not enlist the help of an instructor? If your horse gets training why not you too? It will give you a stronger foundation no matter what your skill level and can help you get back on track and out of that frustration! Hope that's helpful


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

paintluver said:


> He shouldn't be stiff we flex and warm up really well before a ride, and I dont think he is in pain, I have done the test thing where you press down next to their spine and go all the way down to their tail and he never twitches or anything.
> I probably am leaning to the side like what you were doing. When I ride him next I need to focus on what I am doing to try and help him.


If you've ruled out stiffness then it is just a matter of communicating what you want. You've had him to a trainer so he knows how to do it, if you are balanced and assertive/firm there is no reason that you can't get the hang of it with him. It can be really frustrating at times, but you will get it. If you ask him to do something, stick with it until you get the result, something like asking him to move out shouldn't stress him out and once you win that battle you'll find it easier everytime. You can't fight with a horse, they'll win everytime, but if you work with your horse you'll find that he wants to work with you. So just keep your stress low.

To help do that, I would strongly suggest riding him while on a long line if you can as it is less things to multi task with and you can just get a feel for you balance at his canter and you can work on the line -moving him in, moving him out etc... but like HLover says shake things up, spend some time on the ground with him, the parelli games are really fun to do with your horse and it builds trust etc (not everyone believes in them) but they were fun when I did them and it sounds like you could use a bit of a breather too, regroup and retry. 

If you can't get on a long line hang in there, keep the weight on the outside stirrup and butt bone! You guys will get it!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If you get off to deal with your frustration, you are training him to fall in to the circle a you'll get off. He doesn't relate being tied to anything he's done. Instead of question the horse, try to figure out how to better help him understand what you want. Maybe it's time you took him for a trail ride or do something to break up the monotony of going around and around in the arena.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Hlover said:


> Well I think I might have a few tips. If your frustrated with your horse go back to basics you need to build back up whatever kinks you are having in your relationship that are frustrating both you and your horse. You want to build respect instead of domination like you said in your original post. Some ways to do that are JOIN UP. You can look it up I strongly recommend it. Even if you don't believe in natural horsemanship I can't tell you how important it has become with all my horse. It's nice to get my horses tuned up that way, and they gain respect in a neutral environment that they understand. Also lunging your horse might be a nice way to get him to not move out, and stop dropping his shoulder. Since you are in the middle of the circle you can ask your horse to find his balance (which is much easier when there is no rider on their back) , this will let him gain some muscle memory if the problem is stiffness, and it might indicate to you how much your riding is effecting the situation. Id also do some exercises to get your horse to limber up on both sides. Like asking your horse to brin
> g his nose to your boot in the saddle. This will stretch both sides of his body, and make him more responsive to bending on a circle. If your horse is testing you, and your getting frustrated shake things up! you both need a change of scenery, and to try new things so you aren't stuck in that mind set. Lastly if you think your riding might be a problem in this case why not enlist the help of an instructor? If your horse gets training why not you too? It will give you a stronger foundation no matter what your skill level and can help you get back on track and out of that frustration! Hope that's helpful


Sorry, but I don't care how "joined up" y'all get, you still have to not lean and not get frustrated. OP said that she does stretches. Not to mention that I also doubt "muscle memory" is the issue-at least for the horse, since he does it correctly for the trainer. I will bet the trainer didn't "join up"!:wink:

I personally have done your kind of stretches ad nauseum with my guy-and he was STILL stiff on his circle and dropped the shoulder if I am not really careful not to lean.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Jane Savoie has a great analogy....

Person A speaks English. Person B speaks Russian. Person B talks with person A. Person A doesn't understand a word person B says. So, person B talks louder and louder, but person A still doesn't understand. Person B gets so frustrated they pitch a big fit and slaps person A for being so stupid. person A STILL can't understand what person B is saying.

See where I'm going with this? If there is a "failure to communicate", Starting with you. You need to find a different way to communicate, or find a language you both understand.

He is falling into the circle because you don't know how to keep him from doing it. You are allowing him to lose his bend, which allows him to throw his weight onto his inside shoulder, which causes him to counterbend and throw even more weight onto the inside shoulder, which makes him collapse on the circle making it smaller, which makes you pull on the outside rein to "steer" him onto a bigger circle, which counterbends him even more, which makes matters worse and worse.......

It all begins with the bend and allowing the weight to transfer from the outside shoulder (where it should be) onto the inside, which destroys his ability to bend.

Now, I am an English rider, so this is how I would tackle it. I use my inside leg at the girth to push him onto his outside shoulder. I might drop a little extra weight into my outside seatbone to help distribute some of my own weight to the outside. You see, when a horse leans in, he throws you in too, causing your weight to further unbalance him. I'm leaving out my rein aids as we ride with contact and western riders try not to.

Anyway, YOU need to start speaking HIS language which relies on your helping bend and balance him.


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## Hlover (Apr 17, 2011)

They were just some other things she could try to change the scenery a bit since she seemed quite frustrated. But you cant fix the horse if the riding is the problem. Both have to work together which is what join up is about but I know allot of people dont like it at all and that is a perfectly acceptable opinion. Good luck again


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## AQHSam (Nov 23, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> Does he fall into the cirle going both directions?
> Does he do this for all who ride him?
> 
> I am fairly certain that there is something in your body position that is causing him to fall into the circle. It is almost always rider body position error. Be sure you are not leaning to the inside or twisting your upper body to the outside. or?
> ...


First let me say, nice thorough descriptive writing. Thank you.

Next, I can't tell if the OP is western or english style. Would the issue and recommendation be different depending on the riding style?

Also, could any of this pertain or benefit a western rider who is only at the trot?

I ride in a indoor round pen (opposed to an arena). I have noticed that Sam has a different bend? posture? body position when we go around counter clockwise opposed to clockwise at a jog to medium trot.

I chalked it up to we are going in a circle so naturally he would lean in on the inside corners. 

Could it be my position. 

And if so, omgoodness. I gave up playing piano because I can't work both hands at the same time. Now I have to worry about my inside leg (opposed to outside leg) shoulder, and stirrup weight? I'm doomed, doomed I tell you!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Allison gives excellent advice (and packs a gun) so anything I write is in addition to what she says. I would try riding anywhere but in a circle in the arena. If you have to ride in the arena then I wouldn't ride in a circle. Ride to the corner, stop, turn and ride to the next corner, stop, ect. Also ride diagnolly across the arena or ride to the middle and turn and ride to another corner or back to the corner you started from. In addition to that I would slow down to a trot or even a walk until you could control the bend in your horse. If you can't control your horse at a walk and trot your lope is going to stay a train wreck.

Your horse isn't trying to **** you off. Horses don't think like that. There are only two reasons your horse is doing this. Either you aren't giving him the leadership he needs so he's taking over or your seat and hands have him thinking that this is what you want him to do.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

AQH, yes, horses are almost always stiffer on one side than the other. Just like us, they are either "right handed" or "left handed". You will often have to work a little harder to maintain the bend on one side over the other.

We expect our horses to be "ambidextrous"....but not ourselves. Hardly fair, huh?


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

I havent been able to get a video of me riding, because the camera wasnt cooperating. But I have decided it best that I just work on walking and trotting for right now. I am asking him to stay collected and soft. He is going over ground poles and doing really well. i am very happy. Here is a recent picture.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Very nice! And a happy rider usually means a happy horse. Always a good thing, since that is one reason why most of us ride!


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

^^I could tell that when I relaxed and took a breath (and talked to him and myself *Tiny*) He was much better behaved.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

paintluver said:


> I believe she just cued him with her spurs and reins. I was able to correct him like that too but then he started doing all of this.


Sorry - but don't "I believe". Call her, text, e-mail - whatever.

Tell her he is back in old habits and you need help. You paid the money to correct him - it should last longer than it did.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

That's a wonderful idea, paintluver


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## paintluver (Apr 5, 2007)

MLS- I talked to her and all she said was that I was probably nagging him with it. It didnt really help. I am taking lessons now from someone else that I trust and doesnt seem to ignore me like the other girl is now...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

*doomed?*



AQHSam said:


> First let me say, nice thorough descriptive writing. Thank you.
> 
> Next, I can't tell if the OP is western or english style. Would the issue and recommendation be different depending on the riding style?
> 
> ...


 
I think the concept of having the horse pick up the inside shoulder, and move outward a bit to establish inside bend is the same for any discipline . and what I described is a bit of an exageration of the final desired correction. The thing is, I would have a hard time doing what I described without being able to use the reins independently, which cannot really be done in neck reining in a curb bit. 
So, if you ride in a snaffle and ride by direct reining, then what I described can work for you.

Your horse sounds like he has defininte 'sidedness" and so do you. Welcome to the human race. we pretty much all have sidedness. 
I read somewhere that something like 90% of horses are bent to the left by nature, and it said that this is due to the way most foals are curled up in utero. Don't know if this is a real fact , but it would explain why race tracks almost always go counter clockwise. (horse bends to left).


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