# Horse taking over



## horsedreamerforheartland (May 21, 2011)

I have a horse, Max.
i bought him about 7 months ago and ever since, have been losing control of him. He has started kicking when i touch his feet and because i'm not confident and he knows that, i won't go near his feet much anymore especially his back ones. Another problem is that he won't leave his other horse friend and is reluctant to pay any attention to me or move without his friend. 
Today i went riding and he kicked every time i came near him because he knew i wouldn't go near him. I think he is getting worse and worse, soon he may be a disaster. He also bucks when you try to canter him and because his quite lazy, i don't think he wants to canter. i think he has learnt to buck when i want canter so i will stop. I don't know how to fix this, but i know its mostly because my lack of confidence. I just want him to trust me so we can have one of those great relationships like most people say they have. If anyone has any tips i would be grateful.'He has only ever been a trail riding horse.'


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

If you are serious about all of this, then PLEASE enlist the help of a professional trainer before going any further. Internet advice only goes so far, and it's not going to keep you from getting hurt if your confidence is that shaky...


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Dreamer,

This must be very frustrating for you. Is this your first horse? I suppose you had an idea of how Max would be and he's not fitting that image and you don't know what to do. To me, it sounds like you really need the help of a person, in person, who has more experience and confidence than you currently do to help you get Max back to where he needs to be. I think this will be very hard for you to do on your own, and maybe even dangerous if he is kicking out at you.
Some will say you can do it all via video training, and I suppose you might try, but if your experience level is not so high, having a real , human mentor would be incredibly valuable.

Please ask around for a good trainer to help you establish a firm relastionship with Max and learn how to deal with his buddy sour issues. 

I wish you luck.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Dreamer, I third the appeal to get a professional trainer, or at least the help of a more experienced horse person.

This horse knows you're afraid of him, and is only going to continue to escalate the bad behavior until you learn to build up your confidence and take charge.

In order for you to build confidence, you need someone helping and overseeing your riding and handling of this horse.

Without respect, you won't ever have affection or the bond for which you're looking from your guy.

Good luck.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

What they said-


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## horsedreamerforheartland (May 21, 2011)

thanx for the help. i will take your advice, hopefully it works?


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Welcome to the forum!

I am of a different opinion. If I was in your position, I would sell the horse and look for one that will build my confidence rather then shake it. While it is very true that both you and Max need some professional help, it is also common for riders (especially newer ones) to over horse themselves then spend time, money, aggravation, and putting themselves in danger trying to correct the mistake they made. 

Too many riders buy a horse for the wrong reasons (not knowing how you acquired your horse, this may not apply to you). They buy the first horse that looks like their ideal vision or they were given the horse, or it was a rescue, and so on. Sometimes you have to look really hard at the situation and admit that the horse would be better off in the ownership of someone more advanced.

I recently bought a mare, Bonnie, that is one of the best trail horses I've ever owned - and I've owned many. She came to me because her former owner couldn't handle her and ended up with a broken wrist because she felt she had to bail off her when they were heading home and couldn't control Bonnie. I've never had a single problem with her except that she has to know her rider is in charge. If she does not have the confidence in her rider, she takes full advantage of them. My point is that Max may be the ideal horse for someone, but not necessarily for you at this point. Take your time and build your confidence with a horse that will work for you.


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## Macslady (Oct 23, 2009)

May I ask what his age is and how you came to get him? From a person, auction, rescue?


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

If you really like this horse and want to make it work, I would really suggest you get the help from someone who is very experienced with horses. 

If you're pretty shaken from him, I would sell him and look for a more docile horse who is older and more experienced. It sounds like this might be your first horse.

Your horse does not have any respect for you; he sure knows what's going on here and is taking advantage of it!


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

Hey, Macslady! I'm from IL as well!


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Hopefully you can find the the help of a good trainer who can not only straighten your horse out, but also teach you to keep up his training. It sounds like you've slowly untrained this horse without realizing it. The good thing is, it's not hard to undo with a good trainer, and horses don't look back. Once you've established yourself over him again, you should be in a much better position. Good luck.


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## horsedreamerforheartland (May 21, 2011)

He is about ten years old and i bought him from the same man who broke him in. I think because they were trail riding horses, max has only ever been with other horses and mostly just trotted and cantered. I am not too shore on how good the trainer was but he was like a bushman and didn't care much about helmets and things. He told us that max's teeth had never been checked before when we bought him and he said he is the only one that has cut their feet.


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## GeminiJumper (Jun 12, 2008)

horsedreamerforheartland said:


> He is about ten years old and i bought him from the same man who broke him in. I think because they were trail riding horses, *max has only ever been with other horses* and mostly just trotted and cantered. I am not too shore on how good the trainer was but he was like a bushman and didn't care much about helmets and things.* He told us that max's teeth had never been checked before when we bought him and he said he is the only one that has cut their feet.*


So while he's with you, is he the only horse on the property? For a horse that has always been with other horses and is suddenly being asked to live by himself, that can be a big change but they will adjust to it after a while.

Hmm, he's 10 years old and has never had his teeth checked? Did you have the vet come out and look at him before you purchased him?


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## Jessskater (Mar 16, 2011)

Are you sure you were ready for a horse before you got him?


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## outnabout (Jul 23, 2010)

horsedreamerforheartland said:


> He is about ten years old and i bought him from the same man who broke him in. I think because they were trail riding horses, max has only ever been with other horses ... I am not too shore on how good the trainer was but he was like a bushman and didn't care much about helmets and things. He told us that max's teeth had never been checked before when we bought him and he said he is the only one that has cut their feet.


It's great that you realize there is a problem and that you seek help here.

If I were you, considering what you said about the teeth, I would get a vet checkup ASAP. If teeth weren't done, nothing else probably was either. Secondly, you absolutely need a trainer if you don't know what to do about what you call his lack of respect, or you are slowly and surely creating a spoiled brat that will be useless to you and at worst will hurt you.

I am certainly no expert as others here on this forum are, but for what it is worth, this is what happened to me.
I am very new to horses, about 2 years now, and bought a mare back in February after leasing her for several months. After moving her to a new barn, fattening her up, getting her wormed and good care, she began acting up a little, and then kicked me once when picking up a back foot. That was it... I enlisted the help of a trainer who fortunately is at my barn, and after just a couple of days of ground work with her, she has improved amazingly fast. I work with her every day before I ride her. Now I also know what to do when she needs an attitude adjustment. And I am still learning from the trainer.
Good luck, and let us know what happens!


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## poultrygirl (Sep 11, 2010)

Just going to say..even if it's not the source of the problem, he needs his teeth floated. At 10, that's important. If he's got sharp spots, that could be causing some of his attitude under saddle.
Secondly...from my very very limited experience..some and potentially all horses test constantly. You are the leader. Remind yourself of that. 
My farrier says to keep a hand on the hip while checking feet, that way you can push out of the way if you see a kick coming. Remember, the reward is when you let go. If he's just "threating" to kick by kind of waving it around, you usually can talk them out of it by making good and sure they're read to pick up by stroking first, and then holding onto the hoof while they work it out of their system. I haven;t had a ferocious kicker though--just a dramatic one who does it because she thinks she can. Check for soreness in his legs too--have you had a vet examine this horse at all? If not..that's the place to start.

Additionally, get a trainer. A vet and trainer will be able to in person appraise more than an online forum as far as Max personality vs. his problems and causes.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I had a horse that was a dream when I got him, and started getting more pushy and horrid the more time that went on. He kicked Mum one day and she smacked him once on the rump. He never tried it again, because that smack was telling him that he wasn't allowed to do that, we're the bosses not him. It worked for HIM. It isn't something that works for all horses. You really just have to know your horse.

If he's too much for you/shaking your confidence, then he's not the right horse for you. If you don't find him a different home, get some professional help on a regular basis (there are some very good groundwork instructors about, if you know where to look - one of them would help you a lot, I think).


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## Dusty and Olivia (Jun 22, 2011)

Your rite it is mainly your confidence. but ifyou stop going near his legs yur leting him win. when he wins he will become more dominate. and dominate horses like to get more and more so untilthey control you.try going to the sides of his legs (so e cant really kick you) and just pat them or softly brush them. that way he will think that your not doing any thing bad. he should like it. i know my horse does. he should stop trying to kick you after a while too. As for the cantering and bucking. get him to canter then if he starts bucking turn him to a fence or turn him in a circle and he will stop. keep doing so until he gets bored with trying to buck you off and does as you tell him to. if this does not work get some one to lunge you, and canter alot on the lunge. because he cant really buck while hes lunging. as for your horse not paying any attention to you, try keeping him in a different paddock to his friend(if you can) and catching him just to play, pat and brush him sometimes. that way you will spend time with him and will want to spen and pay more attention to you.

i am so sorry if none of this works, but hopefully it will. good luck with your horse.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I disagree with the person who says "sell." To me, that sounds like "give up." Work with someone. Build your confidence. You can do this, but it will take help and time. You took on this project. Now do it right, and see it through.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I am also going to add this, because I have read it in several places, and it is always true, but especially in this economy: every time you break your committment with a horse and sell him, especially with "he was too much for me; he acted up; he kicks, bucks, rears," etc., you are exponentially increasing his chances of ending up in a kill pen. You can't believe how fast even a successful racehorse can end up in a horrid place if it changes hands often enough. 

Get help, and stick by this horse. You obviously had some attraction to him to start. Focus on that. Work with someone good. Put in that daily committment it takes to own a horse (yes, it does!), and get him and yourself in shape for this. You can do it if you really want to, and for the horse's sake, do it.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

This is not a safe horse for you at all and prolly never will be BUT give him a chance with a trainer cuz with his behavior, you sell him, he's more than likely gonna be dogfood. You never know, maybe an experienced horse person's guidance will make all the difference in the world, stranger things have happened and I am hoping this is true in this case. I hate our disposable world at times.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

This can certainly be a safe horse for you if you get the proper help and put in the proper time. There are no bad horses, only mishandled ones.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

iridehorses said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> I am of a different opinion. If I was in your position, I would sell the horse and look for one that will build my confidence rather then shake it. While it is very true that both you and Max need some professional help, it is also common for riders (especially newer ones) to over horse themselves then spend time, money, aggravation, and putting themselves in danger trying to correct the mistake they made.
> 
> ...


 
I second everything said ^^here^^. There are too many good horses out there to risk getting hurt on one that you already know you can't handle. I also second getting the help of a professional or someone much more experienced (no matter what horse your working with). Take some lessons somewhere and build your confidence first. Then worry about your horse. As far as the comment about the kill pens, I did a thesis over this subject and there are less horses being bought for slaughter now than ever before. The truth is that there are just more horses out there that are not being taken care of instead of being sold to slaughter. . . but this is all off subject! Go get your self a trainer, get someone else to at least teach your horse his ground manners, then sell him and find one more suitable for your level.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> I am also going to add this, because I have read it in several places, and it is always true, but especially in this economy: every time you break your committment with a horse and sell him, especially with "he was too much for me; he acted up; he kicks, bucks, rears," etc., you are exponentially increasing his chances of ending up in a kill pen. You can't believe how fast even a successful racehorse can end up in a horrid place if it changes hands often enough.
> 
> Get help, and stick by this horse. You obviously had some attraction to him to start. Focus on that. Work with someone good. Put in that daily committment it takes to own a horse (yes, it does!), and get him and yourself in shape for this. You can do it if you really want to, and for the horse's sake, do it.


You know, DSJ I usually like your posts... but I completely and totally disagree with this one. Even if (IF!!!!) the horse ends up in the kill pen, it's better than the OP being severely injured or killed. That's an extreme situation. 
I'm not happy that you'd play on someone's emotions and fear of death for a horse in this way to get them to stay with a horse that is too much for them. 
If the OP can't get professional help, they should not endanger themselves by working with a horse who knows he has the upper hand, and is already displaying some dangerous behaviors. I would refer you to my post "Playing the Hero" as to my thoughts on this situation. If a horse is kicking, rearing and bucking and you don't know how to deal with it, and _cannot_ get help, the horse has to go - if it is truly a dangerous horse that you cannot sell to a person QUALIFIED to deal with the horse's issues (not selling to just anyone) - I don't have a problem with a truly dangerous horse being PTS. 
I don't think the horse should be offloaded on the first person with fifty bucks, BUT there must be a line where one says "I cannot do this alone, I cannot get help, so I must part with this horse." 



*Dusty and Olivia*, that can be very dangerous advice - you don't go around "patting" the legs of a horse that kicks - that will not stop a horse from kicking, and he won't just stop kicking because you've been gentle with his legs patting and brushing them. A horse most certainly CAN buck while on a lunge.


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## Heaven (Jun 24, 2011)

Well I read everyones opinions and I am going to assume you want to keep him. So first step try and separate from the buddy. So he focuses back on you. Stop trying to saddle until you have good control on the ground. Try Clinton Anderson training. It works. Takes time. But it works. Good luck.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I just read an article in Horse Illustrated a few months ago that said in this economy horses going to kill pens are increasing. I have also worked rescue and could quote you some facts there too, Dressage. The rescues are all full (a lot due to people who quit on horses), and even horses rescued by the state from bad places end up put down because there is no place for them to go. Have seen this too. Don't say I am playing emotions. These are facts. You sell a horse, especially one who is steadily acquiring a bad reputation, and you are probably selling him off to death. And frankly, I think we need a little more emotion. "I outgrew my horse, so I am selling him." "My horse can't work or win me ribbons anymore, so I am selling him." "I don't want to make the effort with a less than a dream horse, so I am selling him." Bah. These are not lawn mowers. They are sentient, feeling beings. Stick with it, and get the help you need and get yourself in shape to deal with this horse. Don't bail on your committment just because it got hard. No one is saying "be a hero" or do something stupid and get hurt. But there is always something that can be done. And if you made the committment only on the terms that the horse be just right for you right away, you need to stay completely out of horses. In the end, all horses are difficult at times and potentially dangerous. Anyone not confident or competent enough to deal with that needs to get a lap dog.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Dusty and Olivia said:


> Your rite it is mainly your confidence. but ifyou stop going near his legs yur leting him win. when he wins he will become more dominate. and dominate horses like to get more and more so untilthey control you.try going to the sides of his legs (so e cant really kick you) and just pat them or softly brush them. that way he will think that your not doing any thing bad. he should like it. i know my horse does. he should stop trying to kick you after a while too. As for the cantering and bucking. get him to canter then if he starts bucking turn him to a fence or turn him in a circle and he will stop. keep doing so until he gets bored with trying to buck you off and does as you tell him to. if this does not work get some one to lunge you, and canter alot on the lunge. because he cant really buck while hes lunging. as for your horse not paying any attention to you, try keeping him in a different paddock to his friend(if you can) and catching him just to play, pat and brush him sometimes. that way you will spend time with him and will want to spen and pay more attention to you.
> 
> i am so sorry if none of this works, but hopefully it will. good luck with your horse.



Please do not follow this advise, it is not sound advise and will likely get you hurt. Possibly very hurt. 



I am sorry that you are having this issue, but I totally agree with others, you need the help of a trainer or more experienced person. Your horse will continue to get worse and worse and he is in charge, and he knows that you don't have the confidence to correct or take charge. Horses are much like toddlers, they learn quickly that if they throw a tantrum in the grocery store and get candy, then you can expect a tantrum next time you are there. Your horse will continue to walk all over you until you learn more so that you can take control back. 

If I were you, I would stop trying to work the horse, and just turn it out while you spend some time finding someone who can help you. A few weeks of not being handled is a lot better than you being seriously hurt. 

There is no pride lost in having a trainer, almost all the top level riders do!


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

And just a side note about horse behavior. ANY horse will "take over" someone who allows it to happen. So if this one ran you over, so will the next one eventually--maybe not as fast, but if you can't be leader in ANY herd, you don't have what it takes to have a horse. You get help and learn to deal with this one (again, no one is telling you to run in alone and play the hero). "I can't afford help." Then you can't afford a horse. These are not pleasant things, but dealing with a 1,300 pound bundle of potential dynamite (and any horse is on any given day) takes something more than a lot of people have. You have to decide whether you have it or not.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

And I can't believe these people going against what Dusty and Olivia said! She is dead on in regard to horse behavior! You get afraid and back off, the horse dominates, and like I said before, if you are afraid of any horse, you don't have the stuff to have one, because any horse will eventually take advantage of your timidity. NOT saying do it alone. Get help. Educate yourself as much as you can. But D&O is right. (Alex, your toddler analogy is perfect; I have a four year old, and they are just like little horses.) People spend far too much time worrying about the finer points of riding form (and yeah, mine's for crap) and things like that and neglect basics of horse behavior, and that's where people get into trouble.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Ok, you can tell I am very passionate on this issue. (And being accused of playing emotions when I am simply stating facts of horse behavior and what happens to labelled horses burned me.) So here I go some more...

Here is the original post in essence:

"I have a horse, Max.
I bought him about 7 months ago and EVER SINCE [my emphasis--this is a process, not a bad horse!], have been losing control of him. He has started [didn't start this way!] kicking when I touch his feet BECAUSE I'M NOT CONFIDENT AND HE KNOWS THAT [emphasis mine]..."

I mean, there it is. The owner of this horse said it loud and clear: "the horse is not the problem. I am. He was ok when I got him, and my mishandling wrecked him." Refer to my past posts. If you are not confident and competent enough to deal with a 1,300 pound toddler (thanks, Alex) whose tantrum can send you flying through a wall, get a fish and a bowl. ALL horses will become Max if you don't have confidence. This is a hard fact. You are the problem, and not the horse. Get YOURSELF in shape, but don't start through a chain of buying and selling because of your problem.

(I think we spend too much time here patting people on the head and saying what they want to hear when a lot of people need to hear: "maybe you just don't have the stuff or want to make the effort to get it.")


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

DSJ46 said:


> And I can't believe these people going against what Dusty and Olivia said! She is dead on in regard to horse behavior! You get afraid and back off, the horse dominates, and like I said before, if you are afraid of any horse, you don't have the stuff to have one, because any horse will eventually take advantage of your timidity. NOT saying do it alone. Get help. Educate yourself as much as you can. But D&O is right. (Alex, your toddler analogy is perfect; I have a four year old, and they are just like little horses.) People spend far too much time worrying about the finer points of riding form (and yeah, mine's for crap) and things like that and neglect basics of horse behavior, and that's where people get into trouble.


I went against D&O's advise because in this current moment, the OP is set up for failure at the moment. If she pats at a kickers legs without having the confidence to deal with that, she will get kicked. If she rides a rearing and bucking horse, at the moment, sooner or later she will come off. 

I just don't think it is sound advise to give to someone without confidence. They need the skills to learn how to take charge, and they need to do that before addressing the issues the horse is presenting. 


Many horses would become pushy if they don't have a leader from their human, but not all. I used to teach at a therapeutic lesson barn for disabled kids and adults, the horses there were chosen from many hundreds of free horses offered. The majority of them could be lead by a 5 year old (with supervision of course) and would never take advantage of that child. There are dead broke horses out there.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

O boy. Just read Horsedreamer (needs to be more Horsereality)'s other posts. I am sure you are a nice person, HD, but this was a disaster waiting to happen. And so will any other horse until you get yourself in line. Jesskater summed it up in one of HD's other posts [written before the current Max crisis, though predicting its occurrence]: "are you sure you are ready for a horse?" Clearly, a big "no." The question I have: "do you want to get ready now that you have two of them?"


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Just read the previous posts too.


It sounds like you are in over your head, and you should certainly get in a trainer, before you are hurt. 

Getting a trainer does not mean you have to send your horses away, you can have a trainer that comes to you and gives you lessons on your own horses. I have had horses all my life, I am 35, and I still do this. I had a lesson today.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

DSJ, it is very obvious we are of two minds here. I am 110% fine with people selling a horse that is too much for them, and am absolutely fine with selling to move ahead/up. I'm not ok with things like dumping an old or crippled horse, but this is going WAY off track. 
I do think the OP should definitely sell the horse if they can't get professional help. Why on Earth should they endanger their life for a horse they can't handle? They should sell with full disclosure (again if they can't get help!) before the horse learns to become more dangerous. 
I also think DaO offered dangerous advice - saying to pat a kicker's leg is dangerous, and that a horse won't buck on the lunge is completely false. She is correct that the horse has the OP's number.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

DSJ46 said:


> I mean, there it is. *The owner of this horse said it loud and clear: "the horse is not the problem. I am. He was ok when I got him, and my mishandling wrecked him."* Refer to my past posts. If you are not confident and competent enough to deal with a 1,300 pound toddler (thanks, Alex) whose tantrum can send you flying through a wall, get a fish and a bowl. ALL horses will become Max if you don't have confidence. This is a hard fact. You are the problem, and not the horse. Get YOURSELF in shape, but don't start through a chain of buying and selling because of your problem.


 
^^AGREED completely! There are already too many horses labeled and sold as "bad" because it was owned by someone whom should not have had a horse to begin with. 
Since the OP hasn't stated (and it's not really anyone business) if a personal trainer is in the budget, time for the owner to make the decision. I believe everyone has made their opinions loud and clear. 

*Horsedreamer, you do what feels right to you. Stay safe and good luck!*


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Dressage, you sell this horse with "full disclosure" ("I totally screwed it up with my lack of confidence so it thinks it runs the gotdang world"), and you might as well shoot it in the head. Whoever messes a horse's mind up needs to get it together and fix it rather than bailing and then screwing up ANOTHER horse.

Thanks for the support, there, heartprints. I can't agree with your last bit, though, "do what feels right." That is going to be the easy thing, and that is what screwed Max to start with. "Do what is right." Undo your mess, Dreamer.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yeah, Alex, I thought about that later. I did understand your post to mean that you thought she shouldn't rush in herself right away. True. But eventually, after getting the proper help, she is going to have to do all of this dominance stuff.

And it is also very important to note that "getting help" doesn't mean shipping your horse off to some trainer to "fix it." The problem is you. You need some help to get yourself fixed, Dreamer, not the horse. Get someone to help you fix yourself.

And (man, now I am getting sick of hearing myself go on about this!) it is also necessary to say that dominance is not violence or bullying the horse, "showing it who's boss" with a lot of whip-cracking and wild, pointless roundpenning. I never touch a crop or a whip (these can be used properly, though I often see them misused), and I don't hit my horse with the reins or with ropes outside of a gentle tap (some horses need more or less physical force--fortunately, mine needs next to none--but mainly because she understands our relationship clearly), but the horse knows who's boss. Brute force is the coward's or moron's way: true authority does not require physical force. You don't bow to the queen of England because she will bust your ***--you bow because of who she is.


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## Missdv (Nov 4, 2010)

I agree with DSJ46, Dusty & Olivia, I got a rescue, got in over my head and am fixing it. I have been riding a long (5th grade until 49) time, but never owned, owning and being in charge are way different than just riding. If you want to ride, rent/lease, owning is a commitment. I am in the process of reversing a spoiled brat, it's hard but I'm working it and she just needed a little bit of leadership. Try Chris Irwin and Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling if you want leadership advise, I learned I was threatening and challenging her, so she was like, bring it on. The foot thing( she cow kicks on back feet), I have my hubby working on (my help), he don't take no for an answer, and he stays on her hip, rubs up & down then picks it up a bit at a time and then she gives and he's a city boy that just learned how to handle horses, Baby steps. Get help from a professional or someone with knowledge and you need as much training as he does, I know I did and when I faced that fact (thanks Kevin ) things worked so much smoother.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

This is kind of a question of morality. Is it ok to pass on a horse that acts like the OP's when you are looking for a mount, knowing if you don't acquire it, it's prolly gonna end up as dogfood? Huh DSJ, would ya? But I agree with you on the point, saying she wrecked it, she should fix it. I also agree she shouldn't risk getting hurt or worse and maybe she can't afford a trainer, so what would be your suggestion. We are certainly correct in stating "this is not the horse for her and she's gonna get hurt". In a perfect world, she would get help, learn safe, proper ways of handling her horse and we would all go off and eat chocolate cake.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Waresbear: "Is it ok to pass on a horse that acts like the OP's when you are looking for a mount, knowing if you don't acquire it, it's probably gonna end up as dogfood?"

I do not understand this sentence as written. You are going to have to clarify.
(If you mean "dump Max and get another good horsey from rescue." Absolutely not. Fix the horse you messed up before messing up another one.

"In a perfect world, she would get help, learn safe, proper ways of handling her horse and we would all go off and eat chocolate cake."

????

A perfect world? Why does it have to be a perfect world. All of this is perfectly possible in this world, if she just faces up to responsibility.

Now, my advice if she can't afford help or otherwise acquire it? (Now, come on--horse people short on free advice???? Please! Come to my barn. There is a long line of people waiting to tell you what to do with no cost.) If she won't get or take help...then sell poor Max, sell Nel (before she messes this one up too) and stay the h- out of horses. 

The message doesn't seem to be getting through. THE PROBLEM IS HORSEDREAMER. (Look at any post she has put on here: "I lack confidence... I lack confidence... I lack confidence..." Worst red flag possible!) She will screw up ANY horse eventually. Max is not the problem. In fact, he is the victim here.

The only moral question here is: "is HD going to own up and put up in regard to the horse she damaged--or not."


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

And Waresbear, (I think I finally cut through the sentence structure): if you meant: Pass on the horse to start with, before you have acquired it? Yes, you have no obligation until you make a committment. But if you are afraid of one horse, you are eventually going to be afraid of any horse. There is no such thing as a perfectly tamed horsey. The best horse allowed to get out of control will become a Max. Paramount: read the post! MAX WAS GOOD TO START! She would not have known to pass on him, because there was no reason to at the start. Max is not the problem!

If this is, in fact, what you meant, it's a ludicrous question. Do I have an obligation to all the kids starving in Africa. Not really. I can feel bad about it, but I have no obligation. Do I have an obligation to any child I brought into the world or adopted? Yes, I do.

If my horse goes blind, lame, insane or votes Democratic (or for Palin, for that matter), I will stick by her. If we go homeless, I will pay her barn bill digging ditches or ride her down the street. And if you think I am kidding, you don't know me.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

whew! Read a lot, altho I will admit, I did not THOROUGHLY read it all.....but, here is my opinion muddled in with just general thoughts. 

First thing that comes to mind is-Why are y'all talking about selling this horse? OP would be lucky to be able to GIVE it to a qualified person, who will, most likely, retrain and sell it...but, that said, will better its chances of a good forever home.

Next, OP if you are afraid of this horse, then IMO, you need to GIVE him to someone like I discussed above. give the horse that opportunity. to try and rebuild confidence with a horse you are afraid of is very very difficult, and, frankly, i would rather spend my time enjoying a horse. yes, most of them test, and, if fact, probably more so the more homes they have. each time they change ownership they seem to have a harder time trusting again. BUT-if you are afraid, you will get hurt.

I have had 2 on my over 40 yrs of horse ownership/experience, who I became afraid of, in varying degrees, and for different reasons. As soon as I became afraind, I knew they had to go. To keep them was a disservice to both of us. One just literally turned mean, after I owned him for about 6 mo, and, since I boarded at a barn with kids around as well as had my own-he had to go. He was outwardly agressive. Like would come galloping across the pasture to bite/kick you if you came in to get another horse. I was fortunate, he went to a good home, to a guy who turned him around and loved him. The other one just had a bucking issue, but it intimidated me. I gave him to a trainer who retrained him and sold him for $15K. everyone won. I got to move on to a horse who could rebuild my shattered confidence, even tho he does test, occassionally does buck (if you could even call it that.)

I would say that you need to work on your skills. Part of what helped me was actually working with an awesome trainer while he trained my horse. I also watched him work thru issues with others and soaked it up like a sponge. It is an amazing feeling when you really get them to change their behavior and know they respect you.

This is your decision. Do not let the fear of the horse going to a "bad place" affect what you do. You need to keep yourself safe, and continue learning.

Good luck!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Clarification in simple terms.....You were looking to buy a horse, this horse is for sale, it rears, it bucks, it bites, etc. It's been up for sale for awhile, if you don't buy it, we all know where it's prolly gonna get up, right? Would you buy the horse and save it? If so, please message me with your digits, cuz I know of a whole whack of horses I will donate some of the shipping costs that you can save. Sure everyone will offer you free advice on horses to removing stains from your carpet, but ain't no one is gonna come out to your residence & help you apply that advice. If they did, it would be a perfect world. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, she should fix the mess she made, but I doubt that's gonna happen, she's just gonna end up getting injured.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

This is just a silly question, Waresbear, and it does not apply to this situation. I address it in a post above.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

FrankNBeans: "As soon as I became afraid, I knew they had to go."

Can I be understanding this correctly? You sold these horses down the road instead of working on yourself. Horses don't magically turn mean any more than people do. And your stories have nice endings, but, again, having worked rescue, I see so many that don't.

This is the problem, at its heart, people.

And what magically changed that the horse got not mean again at the good home? He went to someone who stood up to the behavior and took the responsibility to deal with it. I can assure you that I have never seen a horse "suddenly turn mean" who was being seen and cared for every day and whose bad behavior was nipped in the bud. I have seen dozens whose owners were too timid or almost never saw the horses or spoiled them rotten.

Man, sorry this is so harsh. But this is such a huge issue.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Here is a good example:

Just the other night, my incredibly docile mare nipped at someone tightening a cinch. The woman rather timidly popped her on the nose, and the horse nipped again. I came up and raised the back of my hand, never striking, never needing to. The mare submitted, lowered her head, and the cinch was pulled tight. Bad behavior averted--not through violence, but through respect.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

DSJ46 said:


> And Waresbear, (I think I finally cut through the sentence structure): if you meant: Pass on the horse to start with, before you have acquired it? Yes, you have no obligation until you make a committment. But if you are afraid of one horse, you are eventually going to be afraid of any horse. There is no such thing as a perfectly tamed horsey. The best horse allowed to get out of control will become a Max. Paramount: read the post! MAX WAS GOOD TO START! She would not have known to pass on him, because there was no reason to at the start. Max is not the problem!
> 
> If this is, in fact, what you meant, it's a ludicrous question. Do I have an obligation to all the kids starving in Africa. Not really. I can feel bad about it, but I have no obligation. Do I have an obligation to any child I brought into the world or adopted? Yes, I do.
> 
> If my horse goes blind, lame, insane or votes Democratic (or for Palin, for that matter), I will stick by her. If we go homeless, I will pay her barn bill digging ditches or ride her down the street. And if you think I am kidding, you don't know me.


I believe you, very sincere & good answer. However I, and many other people here know that there are horses that are forgiving and would never buck, rear or bite any sort of humanflesh and there are some that will take advantage of any mishandling. The OP should have bought an older, more forgiving horse but she didn't and now it's becoming dangerous. Like you pointed out, sure it can be fixed IF she puts in the time & effort. I hope she does, but she does have other options.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Sure, I see this, Waresbear. It just seems such a cowardly thing in regard to Max. I am trying to think of the horse. She can go get a busted up old plow horse, but Max will be the albatross around her neck if she dumps him--or should be.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

By the way, I had this exact same argument on youtube a few months ago. Coincidentally, I heard from the man whom many were telling "green (man) on green (horse) equals black and black" (cute bromide, but it never has to be true.) And he had bought two green horses for his kids. He realized these horses were in no way good for his kids and dangerous even for him. Many said "sell." Only two of us told him to stick it out. Coincidenally, I got a message from him earlier today thanking me, saying that he was sticking it out, and that the horses were coming to hand. It may be years before they are kiddie proof, but the dude manned up and took responsibility and was happy about it--the same way we always are when we get a backbone and see a committment through.

And I, by the way, do NOT have years and years of experience, and many told me an OTTB would eat me alive, especially bareback and bitless. I heard all the greenhorn talk. But I have lived, breathed, eaten and slept horse for the past couple of years (and I work with her every day), and especially learned to deal with the occasional rebellion and (early on, very frequent) spookiness (which comes from lack of trust), and all the work pays off.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

And I sound angry, but I am not. I just want SO much for this gal, and others, to realize what a huge responsibility horse ownership is. Sometimes I think there should be testing and licensing for it


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> FrankNBeans: "As soon as I became afraid, I knew they had to go."
> 
> Can I be understanding this correctly? *Yup.*You sold these horses down the road instead of working on yourself. *I did not say I have ever stopped working on myself, did I? *Horses don't magically turn mean any more than people do. *I am here to tell you-this one did. My dad was there with me on many occasions, and he used to be a QH trainer.* And your stories have nice endings, but, again, having worked rescue, I see so many that don't. *So have I -I was lucky, but also did what I needed to to to keep myself and my kids safe. Period. People are more important, at least to me.*
> 
> ...


Bottom line-if you choose a horse over self preservation-go for it. I would rather live and not be in a wheelchair, thanks. Plus, my husband is of the opinion that if he is going to support my "habit" I should actually enjoy it.:wink:


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Your latest reply really begs the question, FrankNBeans: How did the horse get out of hand to start with? And if we allow a horse to get out of control, is it not our responsibility to fix it? Your wheelchair business is just smoke. No one is saying get on and ride a wild horse. Get help. Stay on the ground. Get the horse safe. Then ride. Seriously, it is just a question of work and responsibility, and most people just want to do their little trail rides and put horsey away and have a beer and not have to deal with anything bad. Horses are one hell of a lot more than a habit or a hobby, and sometimes it's not about our enjoyment. (Your final statement concerning this speaks volumes.)


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> Your latest reply really begs the question, FrankNBeans: How did the horse get out of hand to start with? And if we allow a horse to get out of control, is it not our responsibility to fix it? Your wheelchair business is just smoke. No one is saying get on and ride a wild horse. Get help. Stay on the ground. Get the horse safe. Then ride. Seriously, it is just a question of work and responsibility, and most people just want to do their little trail rides and put horsey away and have a beer and not have to deal with anything bad. Horses are one hell of a lot more than a habit or a hobby, and sometimes it's not about our enjoyment.


if I knew how the horse got out of hand in the first place I WOULD have fixed it! If you think that he was around a while getting worse and worse, like the OP's horse-not the case at all. happened in the spring, and frankly, I sometimes wonder if he was proudcut, since he was in a mixed herd. But, even the 70+ tough old BO was scratching her head on this one. None of us had seen anything like it. You could NOT work this horse on the ground. You could lead it and groom it, but anything like lunging or roundpen-out of the question. this horse would literally come at you ears pinned, teeth barred. 
Not sure what you mean by my "wheelchair business is just smoke?" No more smoke than you telling the OP her horse will end up in a killpen. Both are reality in some situations. We both know it. If you have never know anyone or even OF anyone who has ended up in a w/c or dead because of a horse, then consider yourself lucky. it does happen. Perhaps you are too young to remember a very famous one, and that was an unfortunate accident.

Perhaps you are not angry, i am glad for you.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

You mean Turcotte, of course. Met him once at Santa Anita. (Glad I look young.) And no one suggested you ride your wild horse. What was suggested was that you get someone to work with him (along with you) to make things better.

Ok, maybe your horse was mentally ill. But I doubt it. Why did he get better in the new place? Because someone worked with him, right? Someone took the time it took to get him better.

There is not much of an argument around this, you know. Just say it. I didn't want to put in the money, time and effort.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

It really just boils down to what horses mean to us. How much we will extend ourselves for them. Try to see things from the horse's point of view, a skittish prey animal that dares to trust us some. It's a tough enough life (cinches, saddles, riders, bits, trying to turn the pages of the Times with just hooves), even when they have it good. When they have it bad, it's hell. I don't see this as a hobby--it is a life, for better or worse, 'til death do us part.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> You mean Turcotte, of course. Met him once at Santa Anita. (Glad I look young.) And no one suggested you ride your wild horse. What was suggested was that you get someone to work with him (along with you) to make things better. *I already stated that I got rid of this horse because I did not have a trainer, AND BECAUSE I HAD KIDS, AND THERE WERE KIDS AT THE BARN. I had nowhere else to keep him. HE WAS DANGEROUS. Somehow you are so hung up on me being a bad person for sending this horse down the road, you have missed that. Was it done casually? NO! Was I glad he was gone? YES! and that is the ONLY horse I have ever sold/given away that it COULD have said "meat market" on the side and I would not have cared. He was dangerous!*
> 
> Ok, maybe your horse was mentally ill. But I doubt it. Why did he get better in the new place? Because someone worked with him, right? Someone took the time it took to get him better.* That "someone" was a male, which I think was part of it, AND he was at a TRAINING facility. I did not have one locally. PERIOD.*
> 
> There is not much of an argument around this, you know. Just say it. I didn't want to put in the money, time and effort. *Perhaps you can read my posts again and again until you understand them. It had NOTHING to do with MONEY, TIME and EFFORT. It had EVERYTHING to do with SAFETY. Of myself,my family, as well as the other boarders at the barn. *


That said-if you cannot read and actually TAKE THE TIME TO UNDERSTAND what is said, please don't insult me. it is rude.

You have already said your experience is limited. Because of that, so is your knowledge.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

actually, no, I did not mean turcotte, but he is one of many.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

If you had money enough, you could have moved barns, away from the kids, and gotten help. Safety for your family? No one said put your children in the stall. No one said try to ride him until he got straightened out (which did prove possible).

And what do famous rider deaths have to do with this? Were they riding your horse?

No, I did not say my experience was limited. I said my span of time was, or anyway, that is what I meant, whatever words I used. I have gained much knowledge in a shorter period of time than many, because of intense study and daily work with my horse and in horse rescue. And you find one thing I have said that displays lack of understanding of horses. Even you admit your horse had a background which probably caused his behavior, that there was no spontaneous meltdown.


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## corporate pride (Feb 23, 2010)

franknbeans, i'm with you on this. i recently had a very nasty horse, i didn't second guess my safety and realised it's not fun.
horse one: elly, too much for me, totally a beginner and she was green, started bucking me off. sold her to a nice man that trained her in eventing.

horse two: diam, sweet on the ground, strap a saddle on it was diffent, was sold to me as a beginner horse to go to pony club, she bucked, reared, bolted, run me at trees, backed into fences threatening to throw me on them. sold her as a brood mare as she had great bloodlines, i suspect that something went wrong in her breaking.

horse three: ozzie, bought him with shattered confidence, he made me feel safe. took me 3 years of being trerrified that i would get dumped and pushing through the fear to begin to enjoy it, i still own ozzie who is 18 this year and staying with me forever, a owe him that. trust this horse with my life

horse four: marco, got him for free as a project horse, was under weight but seemed to have potential to event. i used the first 10 months for feeding, got on him, dead quiet, ground wise was a disaster, i was working on all of it with advise from a trainer, he's a kicker, kick out at you if you had food, sorted that out with strict rules at dinner time, took him to lessons out and was ok but bucked alot, was working on that too, took him out with some friends to pony club grounds to practice show jumping, bucked me off over a jump, lined me up and double barrelled me in the face and shoulder, it was obviously NOT an accident. tried to give him away full disclosure, the other option was the meat truck, the previous owner offered to take him back, i delivered him.

horse five: barney, owned since easter, 2 weeks after marco kicked me, took him to 2 events and he has been perfect, really tested him and he doesn't buck, rear, bolt, bite, kick, bought him for $700. he's a keeper


i had alot of bad and good, but i'm with franknbeans, this horse is dangerous for you alone, either get a professional trainer or get a nice horse with lots of lessons. i don't advise you to think that you can fix this horse without getting hurt, if that's the path you want to take then ddon't take it alone. 
i was in your position and you can read above what i did. i don't care what anyone says about me giving up and not taking responsiblilty because i did take responsibility, all those horses were better off with someone else, i couldn't help them but i don't regret owning them, they always taught me something and i always got led to a nice horse.

i ride to have fun, yes it's training aswell and hardwork, but if it's not fun sometimes then i wouldn't ride. i enjoy training and lessons and learning but not went i'm in hospital with a possible broken jaw and shoulder.

good luck dreamer, you chose what's right for you. it's your life, don't let someone else tell you how to live it.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Horse 1: Sassy. Put in all the right work with her. Established the relationship before trying to do a single thing with her. Patiently work through each problem and nip dangerous behavior in the bud with nonviolent discipline. See her and work with her daily. She has worked out wonderfully well, despite everyone's warnings to me.

Lucky? A little. But it ain't just luck that I got the right horse right off the bat. Even if you get the right horse, you have to keep making the right horse the right horse, and even the wrong horse can be made the right one if you want it that way badly enough.

Sure Dreamer. Do whatever you **** well want. It's your life to live. There are no other beings in the world to consider.

Have at me, folks! That is my last word on this topic.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> If you had money enough, you could have moved barns, away from the kids, and gotten help. Safety for your family? No one said put your children in the stall. No one said try to ride him until he got straightened out (which did prove possible). *again, please read what I have said. this horse was not dangerous in his stall. And, the kids were not all mine. at the time I had to board my horses. I could not endanger others.*
> 
> And what do famous rider deaths have to do with this? Were they riding your horse? *the reference was to wheel chairs, not deaths. Geesh. *
> 
> ...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

franknbeans said:


> I am done discussing this with you. We need to get this post back on track, and I find you nothing short of frustrating, since you don't seem to underrstand what you read, and you tend to twist what I say. _ I did what was right for me in my situation_, and I am not sure what qualifies you to second guess that. You have "studied", have one horse and one rescue to base it on.:?
> _*The OP needs to do the same thing: Do what is right for her and the horse and not let talk of feed lots, etc, keep her from doing that. She needs to keep herself safe.*_


Thank you.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

On word twisting (a different topic, since I uttered my last word on the other one, remember?) I have worked horse rescue IN a horse rescue facility. I have worked with many, many horses in rescue, far too many abandoned by owners who labelled them difficult. I was not referring to my horse. I bought my horse straight off the track.

I remember Fancy in particular. Fancy's owner brought her to the facility because she was too much for him. Fancy was also too much for a couple of the volunteers and literally ran over them. For others of us, she wasn't and came right to hand. I wonder why. Horses are like kids: they know whom they can run all over and whom they can't.

And I guess the real evidence here is that I have been able to base what I am saying on one experience owning a horse. One experience done right.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

There are too many good horses in this world to waste your time, money and health messing with the bad ones. And yes, there ARE bad ones. Perhaps they are manmade, but it is not someone's responsibility to stick out 20-30 years of pure hell because someone ELSE screwed the animal up. If that's YOUR choice, that's fine, but don't ram it down other people's throats as gospel, you sound as bad as the natural horsemanship nazi's.

My coach/trainer stuck it out for YEARS with her horse who was a chronic and BAD bolter. She trained with a Grand Prix Dressage coach who wouldn't even get on this animal. Even he told her to just sell the horse already if she had any hopes of progressing in Dressage because he wasn't made for it. She made the right decision and sold him and took a big loss on him. It is NOT her responsibility to get killed by this animal because someone else screwed it up.

To actually assume and preach to others that ALL horses are saveable is just ignorant and arrogant to the highest degree. You do not have anywhere near the experience to be making such claims and telling others they're wrong based on ONE horse.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Well, let me introduce this unthinkable concept. A horse doesn't HAVE to be ridden. The real problem is that people buy horses to win ribbons or to carry them about or to have a fun hobby. Maybe you get an abused horse and he gets bolty or whatever. Why do you get rid of him? Because you can't ride him. (And don't tell me "o my God, he was so uncurably dangerous he would jump over a fence and stomp me!" I have seen horses in rescue brought back from the psychological brink by patience and love--and no, they couldn't be ridden, a lot of them. This is the fundamental difference in so many of you and some of the rest--most get horses to do something with them. Some of us just love horses.

And now we are going to play with the fact that I have only had one horse? Well, that is my advantage in this discussion, as I see it. Some of you with multiple failures want to tell me about my supposed lack of experience. I'm batting 1,000, aren't I? 1 for 1. You want to know the secret? Never let the horse have the last word.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

O, boy, I just caught your "natural horsemanship nazi" remark. Ja Wohl! Ich bin! We're horrible *******s, aren't we? Wanting horses to be happy and taken care of. Thinking that the welfare of the horse is more important than whether you win a blue ribbon that you can pin to your cork board and feel important. Trying to get people not to quit on commitments to sensitive, sentient beings because they "don't want to waste the time and money." Thank you for making my point exactly. "We want it easy, and we will keep buying and selling until we get it easy." Horses take as much guts and determination as children do, and children grow up--horses remain vulnerable, and, in fact, grow more vulnerable, as time goes by. "Waste of time and money." Yeah, that says it.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

This thread is so far off track, the tracks are a dot in the distance. 
I've personally worked through a horse that was too much for me, with the help of a trainer, then sold for profit and to move up, as I outgrew her abilities. She is still putzing around teaching kids to ride. Another I sold as we did not click, and I wanted to show - he wanted to buck me off. After many years of silence, I heard from his current owners - they love him, and they work very well together. 

It isn't wrong to sell a horse. Some people keep a horse forever. Some don't. Neither is wrong.

That's my little spiel. I think I should show myself out now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

The most messed up horse I ever saw was a paint stallion who had been tormented by sadistic owners who continually taunted it with four-wheelers. (He was in the rescue facility I worked at.) The wildest, angriest, most psychologically damaged animal I have ever seen outside of a human (the only species who can render other species crazy.) Well, a whole team of "natural horsemanship nazis" worked with him and somehow got him to trust again. Can you ride him on trails or jump him or dance him around a dressage ring? No. (Stupid waste of time and money!) But one of the nazis gave him a nice home (and this nazi has kids, by the way) and he will live out his life as a pet on which there can be placed very few demands. And why? This nazi loves horses.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

No, we are not off topic. The topic is HorseDreamer wanting to bail on a horse she screwed up. And people patting her on the head and saying "it's your life; do anything you want." The question is: what is a horse? A living being or a piece of property? If we leave it that you can just dabble in horses and if you don't like what the horse does, even if it is your fault, just pitch it and start screwing up another one, man, that is horrible for horses.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Wow, this is a hot topic, but it's great to see fellow horse enthusiasts so passionate. We all want to see what is best for the OP and her horse, and nobody getting hurt. I never want to hear of someone getting killed because they were thrown off or kicked by a horse, reminds me of my own mortality.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

You seem to think, DSJ46, that every horse would be suitable for every rider with the right amount of training, time, and money. 

That is just simply NOT true.

You don't like every person you meet, do you?

There are some horses and some people who will never get along. Base parts of their nature clash. Perhaps they can work out a good working relationship, perhaps they can't. Either way, neither one will ever be happy in the relationship.

Why is it wrong to rehome a horse to someone it DOES get along with?

I think it is a dis-service to NOT recognize this. Every horse deserves a home with someone who loves it, who can work with it. 

There are some horses that no matter how impeccably trained, will never, ever be suitable for anyone except a professional/extremely experienced rider/handler.

There are some horses, that no matter how impeccably trained, ARE aggressive. 

To believe otherwise is incredibly naive.

*

I have sold horses. For a long while I bought horses, put work and training into them, then sold them on. I truly believe I was doing a service to these horses. How do you think broke, kids horses come about? NOT by being ridden by kids. By being ridden and trained by experienced riders, then sold to children. The horses I have sold are all still with the people I sold them to, mostly young people, and all doing fantastically. If you want to shame me for that, go ahead, it won't work.

There are mistakes people can make with horses that can not be undone no matter how much training or time they are given. There are some habits horses can form that can never be truly managed. 

There ARE horses who can be handled by complete novices without turning into demons. I have one in my paddock. He was an RDA horse for a while, and has now been ridden/handled almost exclusively by a soft hearted intermediate rider who is terrible at being assertive. The most he has ever taken advantage of her is sneaking a few bites of grass on a ride. 

Without experienced riders turning over good, broke horses, the horse market would stall. There would be no safe, experienced horse for people to learn to ride on.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

In the specific case of this thread, that is to say, the poster, HorseDreamer, she needs to learn this lesson: clean up your mess. You don't screw with a living being and just walk away because it got hard.

And once again, when people say "unmanagable," what they are most often saying is "unridable." (My car won't run. My blender is busted. My thing doesn't do what it is supposed to.) This is the problem I have. This view of a horse as something that is supposed to perform, and then when someone breaks its mind with stupidity, timidity or other mishandling, they call the horse "bad" because "it don't work no more."

I will give you a great example. My daughter went with her Girl Scout group to a trail riding event. I went and rode too. During a demonstration, some teenager working the event was trying to groom a horse to show the girls how to do it. The horse moved into her and shoved her over. The silly demonstrator tried to move the horse back with her shoulder, as she was nearly pressed into a fence. To uproarous laughter, the goofy teen girl struggled with this horse, in vain, trying to shove it with her body. Embarrassed at her ultimate failure to move the horse, she pronounced him "bad" to the GS group. I spoke up, said that was wrong and that it was simply that you can't move a horse that way. I walked over to the horse and began tapping with a single finger on the hip with ever increasing speed and pressure. The horse gave way and moved out. I moved this "bad" horse with a single finger. That horse wasn't bad. The demonstrator was stupid.

This is a minor example, but this is all this "bad horse" crap is. People who don't know how to work horses or who can't figure out how to work a particular horse and won't continue to make the effort. And don't tell me about all your years with horses. In fact, that can be a curse, because the old ways still persist even with all we know about simple pressure and release techniques, which are relatively new. A lot of new people, who learn pressure and release, clicker training and other reward-based training methods, and not the old ways, are miles ahead.

And don't talk to me anymore about my just having one horse. I have had plenty to work through with her, and I have seen enough of other people's screw ups to know good from bad training.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I stand by my original post. An inexperienced, unconfident, horse owner with a horse that is increasingly acting dangerous is over their heads and should get the horse into the hands of an owner who can handle him. Both the horse and the owner needs training but, especially in this case, the horse is with the wrong owner.

DSJ46, you managed to work it out with your only horse - good for you and your horse. There is a time to know that you have the wrong animal for your needs, personality, and experience. At that time, the right thing to do is to either find a trainer if you can afford one, or sell the horse to the right owner. 

To advise someone who is insecure and inexperienced with a horse to "fix it" is totally irresponsible and a great way to get someone hurt or killed. This isn't a blender, or even a puppy. This is a 1/2 ton animal who thinks it is in charge. Just as you would take a car that is not working to a mechanic or to sell it - there is a time that you need to know that it isn't going to work.

I'm one of the old ones. I've owned horses for over 30 years - many horses, not just one. I've worked through problems crated by previous owners and I've sold horses that I knew were wrong for me (for whatever reason). To stubbornly say that if you get a horse that is more then you can handle that you should stick it out is ridiculous and dangerous, especially for an inexperienced owner.

As for calling the 4H demonstrator "stupid", that is pretty harsh. As a teacher, the proper way to have handled it would to be to instruct her, not ridicule her. She was probably acting out of frustration and embarrassment not stupidity.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well said, Wildspot and iride. Thank you. 

I happen to be the 6th (yes, 6th) owner of the beautiful guy in my avatar. He is only 6 yrs old. There were 5 before me who sold him on for a variety of reasons. Frankly, I am glad they did. :wink: My other-I have had for almost 20 yrs., and will have until "death do us part", even tho he cannot be ridden. As owners, we all have an obligation to do our best. That is all we can do. Sometimes, just as with other things in life (marriage, for example) it is not good enough, and we have to move on for the benefit of all involved.

DSJ-the OP's issue was on the ground (kicks when she gets near it, remember?) as well as in the saddle.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I have a mare who does not like my dad. He handles our horses every day, they live where he works. My gelding I have had for ten years adores him, but this mare just doesn't like him. Doesn't want to be near him. If I were gone, would I think he needs to keep her, force her to interact with him? Nothing to do with riding? Heck no! I want her to be with someone she is happy to be around!

You are not addressing anyone's posts, you are simply repeating your same opinion that has been well refuted. 

Pressure and release is by no means 'new'. Clicker training is simply operant conditioning and does not require a clicker and certainly is also not new. 

Do you condemn NH trainers that sell horses? Or is that different?

There is nothing worse to me than seeing a miserable horse paired with a terrified child because of a mis match. I spend a lot of my time teaching and helping young people, I have taught many to ride on my gelding, because I am passionate about people finding the RIGHT horse for a good result for both horse and rider. 

Forcing a child and horse to remain in a such a situation is absolutely morally wrong in my opinion. Both are better served by finding the correct match! Where both can progress and succeed! Wether that be riding or in the horses case being a happy pasture pet if that is what it needs!

Shame on YOU, for trying to guilt people into perpetuating unhappy partnerships with your ideas.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Thank you, Wild Spot, Iride and Frankn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

wild_spot said:


> You seem to think, DSJ46, that every horse would be suitable for every rider with the right amount of training, time, and money.
> 
> That is just simply NOT true.
> 
> ...


Well said. 

I just read through this thread & I am floored that anyone would suggest someone work through something they are not experienced enough or capable of doing, regardless of the situation being the OPs fault or not. That's dangerous advice & setting up a child for failure & serious injury.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Ugh...anyone who thinks I advised HD to do this all herself DIDN'T read even half of this thread. I said a dozen times GET HELP for yourself and for the horse. And this is not a dangerous horse. This is a dangerous owner. She is a danger to herself and to the horse, because she doesn't have the confidence to handle it. Again, and again, and again. This is not a bad horse. This is a bad owner. (O, no! Maybe someone's feelings are hurt!) Go back and look at every one of this person's posts. "I have no confidence... I have no confidence... I have no confidence..." And before this got all twisted up, there were people agreeing with me... This person will mess up any horse she gets. 

And let's get off the "getting hurt" hobby horse. HD...GET THE PROPER HELP AND GO VERY SLOW AND DON'T DO ANYTHING RISKY. BUT GET YOURSELF EDUCATED AND PERSONALLY STRONG ENOUGH TO WORK WITH THIS HORSE. GET PROFESSIONAL HELP. DON'T DO ANYTHING RISKY. TAKE IT SLOW... ok, is that enough?

And, I did call the GS demonstrator stupid, ok..."ignorant" and likely to get really hurt at some point... No, I will stick with "stupid" because she called a good horse "bad." And I DID NOT ridicule her. I simply showed her how to do it. I was very nice to her. I even felt sorry for her because all the little girls were laughing at her.

And comparing horse ownership to marriage doesn't work. You are responsible for an animal in ways you never can be for a spouse. "I divorced my horse on grounds of irreconsible differences..." Maybe you should have gotten into therapy and worked it out for the horse's sake.

Sorry, go back and find the people who used phrases like "it wasn't fun," "waste of time and money," "hobby" and such like. There is the problem at its heart. If you want to make the marriage analogy, ok, let's do it this way: we are a culture which increasingly looks to themselves and not to the committments we make. Again, go back and look how many people said "do what is right for you (pat on the head)." How about doing what is right for the horse? GET HELP to fix your mess. You can't afford help? Sell the poor horses and stay out of horses. You don't have the temperment or the finances for it.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

And here is something else.

HorseDreamer...YOU CAN DO THIS! YOU CAN GET CONFIDENCE...AND WITH THIS HORSE. I BELIEVE IN YOU! GET SOME HELP (!X 1,000). TAKE IT SLOW. DON'T DO ANYTHING RISKY. OVER TIME, YOU CAN BE AS COMPETENT AND CONFIDENT AS ANYONE. BUILD YOURSELF AND GET UP TO YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. YOU CAN DO IT! YOU DO HAVE TO CHANGE TO BE A REAL HORSEPERSON...BUT YOU CAN DO IT!

If we could get behind this message rather than "you are just fine. No need to change. Something in life doesn't work out right away, just chuck it," then maybe this person could accomplish something she could have real pride in, just like the dude I gave this same message to on youtube. (See a thread a thousand back.)


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

**head-desk**


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I just posted on same-scenario thread on another forum, (wherein OP admitted that it wasn't the horse's fault & got the emotions evened out - nice start!) so I'll repeat my advice here:

Facts:

1. It's not the horse's fault that he's taken over, it will happen, according to the dominance level of the individual horse ("horsenality"), because horses are HARDWIRED to dominate or cede to a better leader!

2. You're frustrated & it's getting dangerous because you haven't the skillset to be this horse's leader.

Options:

1. You can put the effort into gaining the skills, & turn the relationship around. (I strongly advise your getting an on-site qualified coach if you choose to go for it, & one who's available to come out /talk on phone when you get stuck).

2. You can decide that you don't WANT to put the effort into being the fit leader for the horse, but instead find the _right_ person for him. This is a win-win, as well!

People have differing levels of interest in developing their horsemanship. In Parelli, a student who never wants to go beyond the "fun & confident" stage, Level 2, is rightly never shamed for it. 

That said, any horseperson who doesn't even want to put the effort into graduating Level 2 will do a disservice to any horse, because he doesn't have the heart & skills to deal properly with the horse.

Also, one who's not Level 2 (the skill level, not the PP pack per se, although I highly recommend it, for cost-effectiveness, convenience, & user-friendliness) doesn't have the wisdom to assess whether a horse is a good match or not! So, IF you want to do the work to get through L2, I'd keep this horse till you know what you're doing, in order to see if he indeed fits your new self!

You also might, if you want to develop the skills, gain those skills on a less dominant horse, THEN try out your dominant horse & see what's up. 

The only thing that's unforgiveable is if the horse ends up in a bad way. The human not having the passion's no prob if the human makes every effort to find the right human for the horse.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

DSJ46 said:


> In the specific case of this thread, that is to say, the poster, HorseDreamer, she needs to learn this lesson: clean up your mess. You don't screw with a living being and just walk away because it got hard.


 
The sad part is that, darlin, that's life. It happens, it will keep happening. Your repeated statements on one forum will not change that. It sucks, and I wish that I could help change it too, but to be completely honest with ourselves, that's the horse industry. It's sometimes not fair to the horses, but that's life, just like the life of a human isn't always fair or good or easy. 

I am not a horse trader, but I have taken in "problem horses" when they need some re-training and sold them for profit. In fact I have actually bought horses just to save their lives and sold them for less than what I paid even after putting in time, love, and money because that's the way the horse market works. You get what you pay for. I wasn't selling "finished cutting horses...etc..." I was selling a "good mannered, knows the basics, shouldn't act up IF you know what you are doing horse". But unfortunelty MOST of the buyers for horses like that (because they are priced lower) are green riders, ignorant of basic horse knowledge, naive to the ways of a horse, and want the "pretty one". You can't help who buys the horse or what they know, and its sad that both the person and the horse have to learn the lesson the hard way. Thats just the way it is, whether it should be or not, it just is.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Northern said:


> I just posted on same-scenario thread on another forum, (wherein OP admitted that it wasn't the horse's fault & got the emotions evened out - nice start!) so I'll repeat my advice here:
> 
> Facts:
> 
> ...


 
^^OP... this is the most clearly stated and unopinionated combination of all the advice thus far. The bolded statement is in sum the "way it should be" when any person decides to sell a horse. I think, Northern, you have had the final word. And THANK YOU!


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Whew, what a thread! I agree with everyone who said get a trainer, and I also agree with those supporting finding another horse. 

It's tough to admit to yourself that your horse is more than you can handle. Trust me on that one! I've realized recently that with the loooooong break from working with horses I had, that Zonie is a handful for me. Not because he's a bad horse and not because I'm a bad person, that's just how things go. 

What I did first was get some lessons! You need confidence building. With my lessons, I don't just ride. I've spent many a lesson on the ground at my trainer's, working her horses on groundwork so that HER horses can show me how groundwork is supposed to look. Then, when I go home and work with our horses (one has a lack of respect we're working on and the other is pretty green), I know what to look for and what NOT to do. I can't even tell you how much it has helped their demeanor and MY confidence.

It can be a long, slow process, but if you're willing to take the time (and it takes quite a lot of it), then it's possible your situation is salvageable. 

That said, please do think long and hard about what iridehorses said. Clinton Anderson stresses "Horses for Courses and People for Horses." Not every person is right for every horse, and if you can admit to yourself that your horse isn't the right horse for you (and that you aren't the right person for your horse!) then you're ahead of the game. That doesn't mean just give up riding forever and every horse will be the wrong horse. That means only you can truly assess if you and your horse can build a strong relationship without one or both of you getting hurt. 

So, in short (lol). Talk to a trainer, preferably one that will come to your location and work with you and your horse, and look into some DVDs that will teach you how to move your horse's feet and how to gain your horse's respect. I recommend CA simply because it's what I have and it helps me, but I know there are plenty of other clinicians DVDs available that would help. 

Keep your head up, OP. It's frustrating but I feel it's worth it to do the right thing for yourself and for your horse


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

But why, Frank? I am encouraging her to do the right thing in the right way.

Yes, HD. Give it a chance. With help, you can do it. You can be stronger, more confident, and more skilled than you ever thought possible.

And Heartprints, if you CORRECT horses and then find places for them, bravo! What I am against here, for those who still don't get it, is screwing up a horse and passing it down the line. And I didn't get my horse to be part of an industry. I got my horse to take care of her through thick and thin.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

And I just read Northern's longer post. Yes, good advice. And I like the stress on the word WANT. You got to WANT it, and you can do it if you WANT it (and, for the horse, you should.) But if you do find a good person for this horse (and you better be dang sure), you are still going to have to get yourself in shape, or you are going to have a repeat of the whole process. You ARE going to have to get help. And that said, why not give Max a try while you are getting yourself horse-ready. He's worth it. You can do it if you WANT it.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Takes a while to read all of this.

I can see both sides of this, both the "you made the mess" and the "no fun being a vegetable" as having merit.

BUT, and I say this from 50+ years of being around, working with, riding and owning horses, there are some horses that are just naturally mean. Few, but there are some. And they will never be safe. Able to be handled? Possibly. But able to trust them. No.

And telling a child, which I am assuming the OP is, to work through her issues with this type of horse, if it is as reported to us here, is madness. Even with a trainer 24/7, this horse will always have her number I feel.

And a big, big difference in a horse that is pushy, and obnoxious, compared to one that is actively kicking at you and meaning to hurt you.

Not all horses will take advantage, no matter how passive their riders/owners are. I have a Paint that wouldn't ever dream of striking, biting, rearing, or kicking. He is a kind soul, and is 17ish now. I have had him for 12 years, can't remember? Thereabouts.

To encourage anyone ever to work through their fear with a horse that is actively trying to hurt them, is wrong. You can not effectively work with a horse if you are terrified of them.

And this horse may well progress, since the kicking thing is working so well, to biting, striking, and once under saddle rearing and flipping itself over. Or maybe running her into a tree, or through a fence.

Is this possibility worth it? No. Plain and simple. No.

What I would advise is that the OP look carefully at why they want horses, and what time, money and effort they are willing to put into them, as the concerns that any horse they acquire will develop bad habits is valid.

But to ignore the posts from the many people who have dealt extensively with horses, many of them over a long course of years is foolish.

And a good horseman, or woman for that matter, never says they have all the answers, because that just means you haven't met the right horse yet, to make you realize you need more answers.

And there are some horses it is kinder to put down, rather than pass them on. It is a relief and blessing to their tortured minds.

In a nutshell, I would sell this horse, give him away, and get some time with lessons and be around horsepeople that can give you a good foundation in how to work with horses.

And then, if you think you can be responsible, and in charge, let your trainers find you a horse for your ability level, that they may know personally.

If you don't want to learn to be an effective horseperson, don't get another horse. They are living creatures that deserve better.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Great post, Palomine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Perfectly said.

Thank You.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Has anyone noticed that the OP is MIA?


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I agree with Palomino. I wasn't taking into consideration the possible age of the OP. My post was written with an adult in mind.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

Palomine, spoken like a true horseperson. And even more important, a WISE person to say the least. Thank you


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

"There are just some horses that are naturally mean."

I still hold this for nonsense, but ok...let's say some horses are mentally ill...Charles Manson horses. But Max ain't one of them. He was fine when she got him. That means there is a good chance to reverse the process.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

Every species of animal on the planet has naturally mean specimens, so to say it's nonsense that there are some naturally mean horses is... well, nonsense.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Great, so some screwed up horse rots in a pasture while 3 perfectly healthy ones go for slaughter.

I don't anthropomorphize animals. I quite frankly don't care WHY a particular horse is so screwed up that he's become a danger to everyone around him. I am willing (as are most) to put a certain amount of time into an animal, before realizing I could save THREE for the time, energy and money it's going to cost to save one. And if you think you're somehow doing a mean ol' cuss who'd rather bite your face off a FAVOR while a bunch of other worthwhile horses go for slaughter, your priorities and emotions are seriously skewed.

Perhaps in THIS particular case, Max is "saveable", but even with a trainers help, chances are good she will just screw him up even MORE if she's managed to make him this dangerous and disagreeable in such a short amount of time. And quite frankly, any horse that goes THAT sour THAT quickly has a serious attitude problem to begin with. I've owned MANY horses, and not one of them would just turn on a human from a few months or even years of a child handling them and being nervous. It takes a pretty particular type of temperament to go THAT mean on a person for just a lack of confidence - there is obviously history there and a lot more mistreatment or issues then just the OP's lack of confidence.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/playing-hero-when-stick-when-realize-50485/


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

She replied at the beginning, said thanks and said she was going to take the advice which was to get help from a trainer.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

"Some screwed up horse rots in a field." I assume that you mean he will rot in a field because you can't ride him, right? You couldn't just take care of a horse, huh? Mess up a horse, shoot him in the head. Move on. It's time this culture starts taking a little more responsibility. I would rather die being responsible than live to 100 damaging other beings to protect myself. (And if she gets the help I keep suggesting the chance of HD getting killed or ending up in the dreaded wheelchair some of you roll out every few threads is very slim.)

On "mean" animals. Animals can be afraid, defensive, emotionally damaged, but "mean" takes a kind of forethought that animals just don't have.

I don't anthropomorphize animals either. If I saw them the same way I saw humans, I would have a hell of a lot less sympathy for them.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Waresbear...I hope that is the way she goes, that is, gets a trainer and works this out. That would be great.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I guess I REALLY have to laugh too at the fact that earlier I was criticized for suggesting that messed up horses would end up in the kill pens--and NOW--O my God!--we have 3 healthy horses being slaughtered for every messed up horse we try to help (but, of course, we aren't actually helping them--we are letting them rot in a field).

I don't know how strong my language can get on this forum. But some of this is just absolute pureed, unadulterated BS.

My point from my first thread was this: YOU SCREW UP A HORSE, YOU SEE TO IT THAT IT GETS FIXED. Don't leave a string of destruction in the path of your life. And we have gotten all over the place, but the real subject is HD. She did it. She needs to make it right.


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## corporate pride (Feb 23, 2010)

wow, no mean horses ai?

dsj i read all your posts, very preachy and one minded.

so tell me how a ottb that has been well taken care of turn into a horse that maliciously kick the owner in the face when on the ground defenceless?? 
a real horseman/women learns on their feet, they learn by looking outside their box. i met a horsemen and went to his clinic, he uses old school methods and common sense, and he also recommends the parelli 7 games. he doesn't discount any method if it works, if it's what suits the horse.

sorry, but you sound like your only in one mind and that's all you see is that. how about you look outside your cozy box and see it from the outside.

some people can't afford to keep all the horses they want or have owned. i for example agist my horses on a property, some people don't own land to horde the horses that they can't ride. why on earth would you pay for a horse to sit in a paddock on someone elses property that you can't do anything with. my horses need to earn a place with me forever. ozzie has and barney is on the right track. some people just don't click with some horses, i got barney off a lady that was terrified of him and they didn't click, i have less experience then her and i got on this horse and less then 2 weeks of owning him i felt safe to take him out to compete. no it's not about the ribbons. i go to socialise and have fun as a team with my horse, gives us both a goal to work towards. i have plenty of ribbons but very few are blue. a ribbon is a bonus, not the reason i ride or compete.
you have basically called everyone that competes a ribbon hog, that all they want is ribbons and no one cares about the horse. i think your thinking of hacking. you don't know these people on here from a bar of soap and your telling them they don't care and they are wrong because it's not what you would do. well you have 1 opinion and everyone else has one each too, so that kinda drowns out yours. offer advise and stop tearing everyone else apart.

dreamer, this horse may or maynot be right for you. do what's best for you and your horse. if that means parting ways, then so be it. you can refuse to sell or give the horse to someone that doesn't have the right experience or personality for the horse. you don't have to give him to the first person with money.

good luck

dsj, check out this website, this might open your eyes abit.

www.horseproblems.com.au


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I am being preachy. I am preaching the gospel of responsibility.

And I know enough about living beings to know that any living being does not just go to bed at night nice and suddenly wake up mean.

As to the OTTB you mentioned that kicked the owner in the face. Boy, I never put my face in the way of my horse's hooves. Horses kick for a lot of reasons. Hardly ever with murderous intent. If the owner had her face where it shouldn't have been, my advice would be not to put your face where a horse's hoof might get at it. If you mean that the owner had been thrown and was on the ground, the horse was frightened by something. It kicked out scared. (That's what horses do.) It's not some abusive boyfriend. It's a horse.

Someone accused me of anthropomorphizing, but seriously, that seems to be what a lot of you all are doing. Can a horse have a behavior problem? Yes. But only as a human defines behavior problem--a horse is always just being a horse--not "mean." An animal doesn't have that kind of forethought. A horse's mind is not as complex as a human mind, and we can mess them up as well as clean them up. If they have a behavior problem, it's usually the human's fault (some trainers say always.) If they get straight and become good horsies (as we definie "good"--a horse is neither good nor bad--a horse is just being a horse), then it is because of the human.

To me, the really dangerous advice here to give HD is "go out and get a nice, sedate horsie." No horse is completely safe or bomb proof. At times, they all buck, rear, kick, whirl with us in the saddle, and all sorts of mean, nasty ugly things. But for the love of Buddha, not because they are mean--because they are prey animals that get scared of seemingly irrational things, and if they get chronically scared, they get defensive. (Can someone at least chime in on the basics of horse psychology here? I mean, we have all these wonderful seasoned veterens!) I am glad I have had to work through the problem I have with my horse. Dose of reality. First thing to learn up front: any horse can do anything at any time.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

First thing to learn up front: any horse can do anything at any time. 

Ain't that the truth? I swear they understand when you say "oh, my horse never does that" in front of them. Then they set out to make a liar of you.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Good example. I was riding last night when a sudden volley of fireworks spooked up my horse (should I sell or euthanize?) Now, my horse was going along like a Valium until this happened, and suddenly all 1,300 pounds whipped and whirled good and hard and would have taken off full tilt boogie if I had been thinking "nice, sedate horsie." I rode out the spook and asserted my authority (with shortened reins and my voice--not with hitting) so she came to hand. But I dealt with this horse's problems (with fear, not meanness) for a long while, up front and personal, so I never go to sleep in the saddle. More naive or young horse owners need professional help. That was no doubt HD's problem, right there. And it's what she needs to get right with Max--or any horse. Her threads scream it. It's what she needs a lot more than a new horse. In fact, a new horse could be more dangerous to her than Max. At least she won't ever fall asleep on Max. We have to learn to sit a keg of dynamite every time we get aboard any horse.

I am just stunned...stunned...that people who say they have been with horses for all these years don't seem to get what I am saying


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Thank you, Waresbear! ; )


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Sure, even bombproof horses have their moments when their pray animal instincts are very obvious. I don't think anyone is arguing that fact. Or the fact that many behavioral problems can be fixed. They surely can. 

However from what I understand, the OP is a beginner and possibly also quite young. Horses should be fun. Absolutly you could respond that we have a responsibility towards them and if we want fun with a lack of responsibility buy an xbox. I won't argue that. 

However I think for the OP, she is outhorsed. I don't think it would be difficult for an experienced or even confident intermediate equestrian to turn this horse around fast. That is not the case with the OP though. She lacks the confidence to make proper training possible. So my suggestion would be to either work with a competent trainer in fixing this horse, or pass it on to someone who could fix it. I do not think this would be a death sentence at all. 

On a larger scale, I do not think theres anything wrong with selling a horse when it no longer suits your needs. I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here because I refuse to sell my fat pasture puff of a horse I haven't ridden in a good 8 months. He has earned himself a home with me until he drops dead. 
However there is nothing wrong with selling your horse in my opinion. This is why proper breeding, training, etc are all important -- to ensure that when you sell your horse, he has a chance. I agree again.

However in this case when I see a beginner/young individual who is scared of her horse, I would rather see the horse sold than the human injured. If she were my student, I would get her confident on a packer, and then step her up to a horse slightly beyond her level of comfort as she learned. That or have her getting consistant lessons on a horse to build her confidence while working with a trainer or experienced horse person to fix her issues with Max. 

Rant over..


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Can't really argue with your logic, Dove. Which is a heck of a lot more than I can say for a lot of these other posters out there getting abused by horses.

I guess I was just raised to tough things out and stick to it, and all that. Some of the most rewarding things in my life have come that way.

I guess if she is going to get rid or Max, my advice would be, don't get another horse at all. Ride other people's horses to get confidence. But don't risk having this happen again. There are too many horses in the world with too many problems to create yet another one. Max seemed nice to you up front, and so will the next one. Your timidity will bring out rebellion in the next one too. 

And people, please, please, please, all those who have talked about "mean" horses...wow...read some horse psychology.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

OP, I think you should start by finding yourself a good trainer. Discuss the situation with someone who is there and can see you and your horse. Let them help you decide if you and your horse can be fixed either separate or together.
Maybe the trainer working on your horse while you build confidence on an older been there done that schoolie might work well.

In the end, it never hurts to admit that you and a specific horse are not a good match. Not every horse gets along with every rider. (Just like not every person gets along with the same people, etc.) No harm in finding the horse a home that works better for it and you looking for a new horse that better works for your situation.

I wish you luck.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

HD? Are you still out there? Maybe you could ring in on what you are thinking about all this?

If nothing else, you have started what is no doubt going to be the longest forum thread in Internet history...


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> ...
> I guess if she is going to get rid or Max, my advice would be, don't get another horse at all. *Ride other people's horses to get confidence*. But don't risk having this happen again. ...


I think this is the best way to learn. Ride a bunch of different horses. Take lessons or just lease a bunch of horses as you progress. I think it makes you a really confident, well-rounded rider.


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

I've read through most of these posts in this thread, and one person seems to think that any horse can be fixed by any person regardless of their skill level, I would have to completely disagree with that person's way of thinking.

That being said, the OP has a few options:
1.) She can try to fix the horse; that she admits she has let get away with everything, by herself and likely get injured doing it.
2.) She can seek out help from a more knowledgeable person in trying to fix this horse. And still find that he is not the right horse for her, or she could find out that he is wonderful for her and her newly gained confidence.
3.) She could find the horse a more suitable home, and buy a new horse that is more in line with what she needs versus what she wants. She needs a horse that is first horse material, and will forgive her the little mistakes that so many first time owners make. She needs a horse that will build her confidence instead of destroying it.

Now, those options being laid on the table lets talk about them a little more. She has clearly stated in this post and others that she does not have the confidence or knowledge for the first option, so lets slide it off the table. That leave the second and third option. She has not stated weather or not she has access to a knowledgeable person, so lets point out where she might be able to find one. She could look at local boarding stables, ask around at feed stores, go to a local horse show and ask there. If I'm missing any, please list them for me. But if by chance she can not find a knowledgeable horse person to help her, that would knock the second option off the table as well. So her only option left is to re-home the horse with someone more suitable. Now granted, which one of these options she takes is completely up to her, I seriously hope that she doesn't take the first options both for her safety and the horses safety. If she looks, she should be able to someone to help her with her horse, but we can only suggest a solution to her problem. We shouldn't judge her for her mistake, but try to help her instead.

Now I'm getting up on my soap box:
As for the person who refuses both sides of this coin. One day you will come across a horse that will be well beyond your limited experience. And that horse will either injure or kill you because you go through life with blinders on. If you seriously think that a couple of years of owning one horse and working with a few rescues that you have the knowledge to deal with all of them, you are sadly mistaken. And I hope that nothing serious happens to you, but I won't be surprised when I hear that it does. You need to open your eyes and your mind, period.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

This is just to the people on this thread to whom it applies--and you know who you are. But it is SO fundamental to what this thread is about that it can't go unsaid.

Some have sought to discredit me because I have just had one horse (and mysteriously, marvelous success with her--not that there were never problems)--but I set here an open challenge to anyone who can counter these simple facts.

A HORSE CAN NOT BE MEAN. A horse cannot kick you maliciously. A horse will not tease you about your weight until you develop an eating disorder. A horse will not plot to steal your inheritance.

Complex moral thought processes take place in the frontal orbital cortex, mainly in what are termed "mirroring cells." It also involves complicated communication between the left and right sides of the brain, mediated by the corpus collosum. These are human brain structures. Animals don't have them, at least nothing like a human. In fact, maybe some of you have heard of the "two brains of a horse." The two sides don't communicate, at least nothing like a human. A horse does not have the neurology to be mean to you.

So what is this that seems to be meanness? The urge for dominance. This is part of the self-preservation instinct of a horse. Some horses have stronger dominance instinct than others. Allowed to get out of control, a horse will dominate you, not out of meanness or badness (these are human concepts made in the human frontal orbital cortex), but out of the dominance instinct.

A horse will also kick, rear, buck, twist, stampede and any number of other things out of pure self-preservation. A horse CAN NOT reason out the "right" or "wrong" things to do, because there is no right or wrong to an animal. It simply reacts. There is instinct and what it is trained to do.

We can't always understand completely why a horse does what it does, but you can always know that it is based in one of two things: instinct or self-preservation.

And yes, horses do have emotions, and they can feel affection for us, but if they feel threatened or that they can move up in the herd (and you are part of the herd, like it or not), you have trouble you have to deal with.

This "bad horse" mentally has been the doom of so many horses. For a really out of control equine, the most you can say is "scared horse," or "badly-trained" horse, or "horse allowed to dominate". But you can't blame a horse for being a horse.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

You know what? I am in much less danger from horses than I lot of other people on this forum because I understand what I just wrote above. It is now formally addressed to you too, PaintedFury.

You can believe me, I have no heroic tendencies to rush in over my head. In fact, I could recognize much better when I was than these "bad horse" people. I understand what drives a horse. I would know exactly when to get help. "Bad horse" people believe in random horse behavior. I see that it is not random at all and always anticipate trouble at any time. I am MUCH safer.

By the way, your little hypocricy there at the end, there, Painted Fury, which really reads "hope you get hurt so I will be proven right" is a bit of veiled aggression only a human mind could conceive.


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

Understanding something and being able to apply the knowledge are two completely different things. Kind of like reading something and comprehending it. You can read a book all day long and never understand what it is that you are reading. The biggest thing that you need when dealing with horses is confidence, and the OP has plainly stated that she does not have it with this horse, so she shouldn't try to fix the problems, that she was honest enough to admit that she has caused. You stand up and say fix the problem, don't sell the horse. She can't fix the problem, she doesn't have the knowledge. If she had the knowledge, the horse wouldn't have become a problem to begin with. Yes, she needs help and she turned to people on this forum for help, even if the only help that we can honestly offer is to either find someone to help her fix the problems with this horse or to sell it to a more suitable home. No one ever mentioned taking it to an auction where it ran the risk of going to slaughter. You are the only one that mentioned that his horse could be killed because of it's problem with one owner, and why did you mention this? Because that is what you see, daily in fact. You don't see the other side of it where horses are bought and sold everyday for whatever reason. Those horses go to good homes, and live a happy life, never going anywhere near the kill pen. I'm not saying that horses don't go to the kill pen, I don't think anyone one this forum will deny that it happens. But if we're completely honest about it, perfectly "good" horses go to the kill pen. Horses that have never been a problem to anyone, they were just unlucky enough to get bought by a kill buyer. Her selling Max if that is the option that she chooses is not a guaranteed death for the horse. You just want her to fix the problem, you never actually suggested how.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Nice try. But I, with my year and a half both know and comprehend what I said above. My OTTB would have run me over a long time ago if I didn't--her only trainer off the track has been me. You know how many days I have spent with my horse in the last year and a half? Every damned one of them save eight. This is the main way I have learned--from the horse, not from books.

And I have to say, I am stunned by the people here who don't even know what I said above, let alone comprehend it.

If you read right, I encouraged HD to try but said if she chose to give up the horse not to mess up another one. Not all horses given up on end up in rescue or kill pens, but a lot do.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

And PaintedFury, what planet are you on? I didn't tell her how to fix it??? I told her to get professional help to fix it. (I guess I can't give her an on-hand instructional over the Internet!) What can you be reading?! The things you people will say to defend the indefensible.

And just so I don't say this for the thousand and first time next thread: I said that if she was unwilling or unable to get professional help to find a good owner for the horse but not to get another one until she had built up her confidence with other people's horses.

Now that seems pretty clear to me.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Has anyone noticed the OP hasn't been back?


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yeah, several threads ago, I gave her a shout-out. Hope she gets back on here.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> Nice try. But I, with my year and a half both know and comprehend what I said above. My OTTB would have run me over a long time ago if I didn't--her only trainer off the track has been me. You know how many days I have spent with my horse in the last year and a half? Every damned one of them save eight. This is the main way I have learned--from the horse, not from books.* wonderful! You have had success with ONE horse, over a year and a half after spending every day (I am being generous and giving you the 8)with it! Congratulations! *
> 
> And I have to say, I am stunned by the people here who don't even know what I said above, let alone comprehend it.
> 
> If you read right, I encouraged HD to try but said if she chose to give up the horse not to mess up another one. Not all horses given up on end up in rescue or kill pens, but a lot do.


Here is a newflash. Horses have different personalities. what will work with one (or even several) wil not work with all. You might want to open your mind. There are very knowledgeable people on this forum with LOTS to offer. Perhaps you will learn something.

as far as someone getting kicked in the face-are you serious? Your remark about not putting your face where it might get kicked takes the CHAMPIONSHIP of ignorance. we all know why the majority of horses kick. That said, S*&t happens and very knowledgable people (much more than either of us!) get hurt.

Shoot-my best friend and BO lost half her thumb between a horse and a gate 6 weeks ago. Do you think she put her thumb there KNOWING the horse would act up? Really? 

You are a relative newbie to horses. you are a bit naive. I really hope your thick head doesn't get you hurt. JMHO.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

O, boy FrankNBeans hopes I get hurt too!

And if getting hurt is a sign of ignorance, MAN! all I have to do is go back to threads like "How many times have you fallen off" and "What's the worst you have ever been hurt!" What a lot of dummies on this forum, FrankNBeans! You never have been hurt, of course...

And what's really stupid is that you think my being stubborn in real, live proven horse psychology facts is going to get me hurt. But let's be real. You really just HOPE I get hurt. And I will state the obvious once more for you too, FrankNBeans, as I seem to have to for everyone who comes by to take a shot at me: armed with knowledge about horse behavior, I am much less likely to get hurt. I know a horse is not randomly mean. I know that a horse acts out of self-preservation and dominance instinct. Horses have more or less of these properties at various times (thus, "personalities"), and that makes me careful around ALL horses. CAN YOU ALL GET THIS??? I am actually safer with this knowledge, BECAUSE I AM NOT COCKY AROUND ANY HORSE! See there??? It is the freaking opposite of what you all have in your heads. I don't think all horses are safe because I know about them--BECAUSE OF WHAT I KNOW ABOUT THEM, I CONSIDER ALL HORSES POTENTIALLY UNSAFE! THUS, MY RECOMMENDATION THAT HD GET PROFESSIONAL HELP WITH MAX OR AT LEAST NOT RUN OUT AND GET ANOTHER HORSE! I knew reading skills were diminishing, but, got-dang! I didn't know it hadn't gotten this bad.

And I guess I need more information about the person kicked in the face, but odds are that person was doing something dumb or had been thrown and got kicked by a frightened horse. (This latter can happen to anyone, surely. But not because the horse is mean. The person who posted that said the horse did it maliciously. I have never heard anything so ridiculous.) As to your friend's thumb, I don't know where your friend's thumb was, but you have to admit, those are different cases. Thumb pinched in a gate. Maybe your friend got into a bad situation, maybe it was just a fluke. I just wondered how someone's face gets behind a horse in such a way to get kicked. I mean, I just got the book-learnin', you know, but I reads you ain't supposed to do that.

See, I took a different trail from most. Most work on riding and then study horses. I went the opposite way, which is really much smarter.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I do have to laugh that some of the same people who rushed in to argue with me in another thread and insist that horses can't feel love are now saying horses can calculate meanness and do things maliciously. 

It's more or less self-preservation or dominance instinct that makes them act the way they do and gives them their distinct personalities. I know that. That is why I am careful around all horses all the time. Believing in "good" horses or "bad" horses is not only silly, it's dangerous. Let your guard down around a "good" (well-trained) horse (Max before) and pretty soon you have a "bad" (ill-trained) horse (Max after).

I would be the first to admit when I needed help. I am being cocky here, sure, because I am getting so much of this in-my-face crap from humans who don't know what they should know after even a short time in horses telling me it's the amount of time that makes a horseman rather than the quality of the time. I know better than that too. (How long as Palin been in politics--she's still an idiot.) But I am not cocky with horses. I know too much about them to ever get cocky with them.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

DSJ, I hope that when people stop replying to your statements, you don't assume that you've somehow "won" the argument. You're very comfortable with your limited view, and refuse to open your mind to other possibilities or opinions; people get tired of arguing with someone so closed-minded. 
I'm shocked, stunned and appalled at some of the statements you've made here. 
Horses probably can't feel the exact same things as humans can - love or hate, or whatever you want to label it. But I do truly think that in any animal, things can go wrong. Things can get "wired" wrong. Impulses and hormones can get mixed up and the animal can truly go crazy and can truly be so dangerous they're better off in the ground. With such complex beings, it's arrogant to say "absolutely no way is it anything but a human's fault." 
Take a psych coourse or two, you'll soon see that it's more than just the "nurture" aspect of things - "nature" is just as important. 
It's very dangerous to think that there aren't "bad" horses, and that everything can be fixed.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

And before anyone takes another swing at me, please look at my last post on page 12. It contains material you should read before you start telling me I am over-confident with horses and going to get hurt and just a babe in arms and blah, blah, blah, although you probably will anyway...


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Dressage, I have admitted in a previous post that some horses could have a mental problem. But again, let's be real. Most don't. And the problem with HD and Max surely was not this. And that is the topic. I would be glad if people stopped responding. I am sick of trying to explain textbook stuff to people who should already know it.

Ugh! "Bad" again. Horses can't make moral decisions or do anything maliciously. Oh...


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I guess I should add this too, since you all are so impressed with "time spent." I grew up on a dairy farm, have inoculated, castrated, delivered, milked, nursed back to life and helped euthanize big critters from the time I was ten and put in more animal time than most of the people on here will ever dream of. (My grandfather was not big on vets--actually, he was just cheap.) The one horse (it died when I was 12) on the place was wilder than crap, except with my cousin Dave. "Bad" horse to those who could not be a leader; "good" horse to the one who could. Cows, by the way, are herd animals and function very similarly to horses. You can't be stupid with them either.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> O, boy FrankNBeans hopes I get hurt too!
> 
> And if getting hurt is a sign of ignorance, MAN! all I have to do is go back to threads like "How many times have you fallen off" and "What's the worst you have ever been hurt!" What a lot of dummies on this forum, FrankNBeans! You never have been hurt, of course...*Did I say that? ANYWHERE?*
> 
> ...


I stand by my statement that you are giving dangerous advice to inexperienced young people blindly. Shame on you. You are a "teacher."

And please re read the previous post-just because some of us stop responding to you does not mean you have won. It simply means we refuse to continue to waste our time on someone so close minded and obtuse, who twists our words.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

No offense intended, but I will always take the advice of seasoned horse people who have dealt with, ridden, handled, trained, and been around dozens of horses over the person who has had success with exactly one. 

I would expect anyone to which I give advice to do the same with me. I will encourage people who ask ME for advice to seek the advice of a more experienced horse person.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Giving dangerous advice like "get help with your horse, or if you get rid of it, don't get another one and make it dangerous." LIKE THAT? What is wrong with you?

And yeah, if you put your face in a place where it can kicked, that's stupid. I think I would have my head clear when I was putting on a hoof dressing. Man, no farrier would have a head if he didn't know where to put it when working with a horse! (And I said I didn't know the details. There can be a fluke. But go and watch youtube videos of people getting kicked by horses. 99.9% are people acting like idiots.)


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

It's all in how you define experience. GWB grew up in politics, and he was the worst president ever. Time spent is not experience. Knowledge acquired is.

But give me this, Goldiloz. You got people on here riding a long time who say a horse can be mean and act with malicious intent. You got somebody else who hasn't ridden as long (you might look at my farm quote) but knows sound textbook horse psychology and neurology to prove it ain't possible. You going to believe myth from the old-timers or facts from someone not in it so long.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

I would just like to point out horse and cows are different. I have grown up with cows.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I think this thread has gotten ridiculous.

No new points have been made. It's just going in circles.
DSJ, I really don't think you are going to convince anyone, just as I don't think anyone will convince you.

For that reason, this thread has gotten pointless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

DSJ I would like to comment on a couple of your thoughts. 



DSJ46 said:


> It's time this culture starts taking a little more responsibility. I would rather die being responsible than live to 100 damaging other





DSJ46 said:


> I am being preachy. I am preaching the gospel of responsibility.



I would like to give myself as an example if you don't mind, as there have been so many comments in this thread, I am the person who gave the toddler example that you liked when talking about horses and their behavior. 

I believe that I am very responsible, I might be taking the higher ground here but I am a foster parent to teenage males coming out of detention (kiddie jail). I take the boys whose parents cannot cope with them. I am 35 and have been trying for a year for my own baby, I feel I probably left it too long, as I was too busy working with the kids when others could not - and I think I probably sacrificed my own desires (more so my husbands) in the process of doing what I thought was right, and I don't think I will have a family of my own. 

I say that as some background as you don't know me as well as others do, so trying to state that I am a responsible person. 

I was out of horse ownership for quite a few years due to finances and just life. When I finally could afford a horse again, I was an idiot, and made a bad decision, I had enough experience to know better, but I was so excited and did not see past my own nose. I bought a horse that was clearly drugged the three times I met it. 

When I arrived to trailer the horse home (boarding stable) it reared many times, not just a little up, but almost falling back. She hurt me badly enough to have a bandaged wrist. Still I was arrogant enough to go ahead, and think I could cope. 

Got her home and after about a week, she turned into a rodeo ride every single time I rode. She was barely manageable to walk to her pasture, she would rear full height at least once every time she was walked out, even if she was the first to go out. 
I ride alone, this is then a debate. Do I keep my cell in my pocket, or would I land on it and break it - am I better keeping it at the gate and crawling to it when I am down and broken?

I kept the horse for about 2 years, used multiple trainers. Worked in just the walk for about 6 months, daily work. When I retrained from the ground up, and got the same results, I gave the horse away. I imagine she has gone for meat by now. 

It is nice to think that horses are life partners, but that is not realistic. I contacted every person I could find for about a 3 state radius offering a free horse. No one wanted her, as they were offered free horses all the time because owners could not afford them. 

I took Star even when I saw her warning signs when I went to bring her home, because I like you, thought that every horse was workable with. I thought I could manage. I failed massively. Not only did I failed, the three qualified trainers I brought in failed too. 

I do not regret that I am no longer paying for a horse that could kill someone any day. But I am sorry I did not make a better choice when I bought her.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I would love to know what textbook you have that says that a horse cannot act "mean." What textbook would be so wrong as to say that a horse can be wired wrong, what textbook would be so arrogant as to claim that NO HORSE (I`ll take it one step further: NO ANIMAL) can be "mean-tempered" naturally? Even single-celled beings can get screwed up along the line. It's arrogancy at its best (worst?) to think that "it ain't possible" for a horse to be "mean." What about those with brain tumors? Those with misfiring neurons? Those with diseases that affect the neurological system? Sweet horses can turn mean if something happens to affect their neurological or hormonal systems in the right (or wrong?) way.
Your OPINION on GWB is your OPINION, not FACT. Some think he's the best thing since sliced bread. That's an awful example.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Sure cows are different, but not radically. There is the herd mentally. Besides, I was kind of being sarcastic there. People treating me like I had never been around anything that walked on four legs before


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

DSJ46 said:


> It's all in how you define experience. GWB grew up in politics, and he was the worst president ever. Time spent is not experience. Knowledge acquired is.
> 
> But give me this, Goldiloz. You got people on here riding a long time who say a horse can be mean and act with malicious intent. You got somebody else who hasn't ridden as long (you might look at my farm quote) but knows sound textbook horse psychology and neurology to prove it ain't possible. You going to believe myth from the old-timers or facts from someone not in it so long.


I'll believe the old timers. Sorry, I'm not saying that to attack you, but they've been around horses all their lives and they aren't dead or paralyzed yet.

ANY animal can have a mean streak in them. ANY species, any breed. It doesn't have to be about fear. It could be a horse that has decided he or she is head of the entire herd of the earth and no amount of lungeing for respect will change its mind.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

This just gets sillier and siller. Yes, all critters can have things wrong in their brains (boy, do you guys strain things), but that is not intentional. "Mean" is intentional. It's a moral quality. A paranoid attacking you in the street is not mean; he is sick. The girl in junior high who made fun of your chubby thighs was mean.

And now we are into equine mental illness. O, boy. Max isn't mentally ill. He just isn't disciplined. Any troubled horse I have ever seen (and yes! I grew up around people with horses, and cows, even though I didn't have one of my very own until later in life), and for that matter, big dogs had owners that did not take proper care of them or play the leader.

Mental illness in animals is pretty rare. And that's a pretty far stretch to get around the basic ideas of self-preservation instinct and urge for dominance being the two main motivating factors in a horse.

O wait! GODLILOZ! You got it! "Decided it was head of the herd..." Now you got it! It's not meanness, it's urge to dominance. That is why an owner has to be the leader! Yah! (And maybe there are unbreakable horses, but Max was not one. He was broke once and got messed up. So horses with super willpower we will have to lump in with those with mental illnesses--not many, and not the case here.)


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I'm pretty sure we completely understand that her horse isn't mentally ill and needs discipline. However, we also understand she doesn't have the experience necessary to provide that discipline without getting her or her horse hurt or worse. You can only do so much when you don't have the knowledge and experience to get the job done. A horse that is that challenging can kill, even if it isn't mean.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

DSJ46 well I don't think being sarcastic is going to help you much and from my knowledge the herd mentality is about all they have in common. 

I have also been loaned a horse from a friend that was deffinitely nasty it was due to bad treatment but there was still no way you could train this out of this mare because she had simply gotten so bad. Under saddle she was the perfect beginner horse but on the ground you could get seriously injured. Sure if you are experienced enough you can handle her. Sometimes she is ok others she will turn around and attack you. She might be managable for some people but you would never trust her and she would never be a completely quiet horse to be around.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

It's goldiloCKz, like the girl with the bears but with a z. 

Also, um yes. Urge to dominate can absolutely translate to "mean". Bullies are mean, no? Why do they bully? 9 times out of 10 it's to dominate!

STOP with the semantics, please. Just... actually just stop altogether.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I guess it depends on your definition. 
"Mean" to me means that the horse is showing extremely aggressive, dangerous behaviour. No premeditation needed. No forethought needed. No "malicious intent" as far as premeditated moves go. I don't think horses are really capable of forethought and planning like that. HOWEVER - they can seem that way in their actions, if someone wants to anthroporphise. 
What would you prefer that to be called? Choose your word, and insert it wherever I typed "mean." My points are still very valid - just because you want to argue semantics doesn't render them invalid one bit; it just means that you've decided that your definition is different. Now that I've told you MY definition, it might shed some light on my posts for ya? Maybe?


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Bullies are human. Read my thread on page 12 on horse psychology.

O, semantics are SO important here. You all are anthropomorphizing all over the place with your word choices.

Apache...good. We agree. Humans can screw up horses to the point practically of no return. That's the whole point here. But is the fault of humans, not mental illness, super willpower or the alignment of the stars.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

My word choice. "Undisciplined." "Allowed to dominant." "Screwed up by a human." 

"Mean," "bad" says the horse is at fault. See the importance of semantics here?

Don't try to do semantics with an English teacher. I will pull time spent on you. It makes all the difference in the world.

Aha! Finally! We are in my realm! Everyone has to believe everything I say about the words we choose in this topic now because I am a college English teacher... O, I like this "time spent" thing...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

EVERY one of your suggestions refers to the horse as having inadequate training, or having been screwed up by humans. I am NOT talking about human influence here, DSJ - you're being willfully ignorant to my posts. 
How about "dangerous" as that truly reflects what horses as I'm describing are?


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

Ok, everybody, let's just agree to disagree, and get this thread back on track.

The OP needs help with a horse that has seriously gotten her number. The only safe options that she has is to get help from a more knowledgeable person or to sell the horse. But, she needs some contacts to accomplish either. Let's make the assumption that she currently does not know (in person) a more knowledgeable person, and give her ideas of where she might find such a person. 

If you don't currently have a friend (trainer) that can help you, you can look in the following places to find one:
Feed Store - ask the clerk about knowledgeable horse people or trainers
Horse Shows - ask around
Boarding Facilities that offer training

I'm sure there are more, but I'm drawing a blank for them right now.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

PaintedFury, her location would be helpful to do this.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Alex, you tried. Good for you. And you didn't even end up in a wheelchair. Your horse was really messed up by humans, not "bad." I think your case is a bit different from HD's. You didn't screw up your horse. Your horse came pre-screwed up. But you still gave it a two-year shot with professionals. My contention here has never been that every horse can be saved, just that we should save as many as possible. I think your effort was honorable. Kudos to you for making such an effort with a troubled horse!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I PMed the OP a couple of days ago - no reply back. I hope she finds the help she needs, or is able to find the horse that fits her needs.
With that.... I'm stepping back from this thread. Anyone who would like to discuss anything further with me is absolutely welcome to PM me anytime


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Ok, now I have to take off my hat--trying to come up with practical help for this person! Fantastic! (Though not so much the part about trying to find another horse, at least until she gets ready to own a horse.) I hope she finds a professional and at least gives it a go like Alex did.


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

Alex, I'm not necessarily talking about specific people, because I too had noticed that her location was not made public. I was thinking more in general where she might find someone, since we don't know where she is. But is she were to make her location available to us, maybe, just maybe someone would know of a good person in her area. That would be wonderful!


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Well thank you DSJ, my intention was to not lose the $2k I bought the horse for, along with the $6k I spent in board over the 2 years, it was an expensive humility lesson. 

I understand that my horse came to me a mess, but if I knew more, was more experienced, not as proud, I might have fixed that horse. Same argument really as you are making about the OP, the horse continued to be the same *** hole rather than improving. End result is the same the horse is a mess. 

PF, not so sure other than googling horse trainers with the specific area, then you are going to get Natural sites or whatever site fits your need.


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I am pretty sure I have never anthropomorphized my animals. But whatever, I can't debate with someone who is being purposely obtuse and talking to grown adults like they are children. 

Good day to you!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I am starting another thread. Except for the insults, this was interesting about the horse's brain, emotions, intent, etc. Thanks all.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

O, my God! You guys were right! I was arrogant! I flew too close to the sun! I was thrown tonight, and my back was broken! I will be in a wheelchair for the rest of my life! I am writing this with my cell phone from a hospital bed...

Nah, I'm fine...had a great ride. (Sorry to disappoint some of you.)

A lot of the comments to me on pages 15 and 16 show that lots of you people simply have no argument here. So you resort to insult...some of it quite childish. I think you will note that I tried to include real knowledge in almost every post. Sorry Goldie, if you found it "obscure" or "obtuse" or whatever. I tried to bring it down as much as I could. 

My whole point in clearest terms is in my posts on page 12. If anyone gives a rat's butt about learning something about the way a horse's head functions, my real attitudes about dealing with a horse and my true desire for HD (and it doesn't seem there are too many), go back and read that.

Yeah, I got ticked off at some point by the obtuseness (sorry if this word is obscure) of some of you all, but I always had a clear argument and facts. You all just insult when you can't come up with a decent argument. (Macabre, and Heartprints, especially you.)

Page 12. It's all there.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

But all I really want to hear now from any of you is valid thoughts about
what I said on page 12 of this thread

about horse psychology
my attitude about horse safety
and my wishes for HD

and really read what I say! Read it all! You want to take potshots at me all over this forum without doing me the dignity of actually reading and understanding my very valid points, both in regard to horses (and how not to blame them for their behavior) and the original poster, HorseDreamer.

And I promise you this. If I don't have at least one person, one person who agrees with what I say on page 12, after honestly reading every word, I will gladly leave this forum forever (because if there is not one person here who can see the clarity of my thought and advise there, I don't even want to be here).


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

DSJ46 said:


> You mean Turcotte, of course. Met him once at Santa Anita. (Glad I look young.) *And no one suggested you ride your wild horse. *What was suggested was that you get someone to work with him (along with you) to make things better.


I had to jump in here, I havent read the rest of the thread.

One of my worst injuries came from working a horse on the ground. RIDING is not the only way a horse can seriously injure you. Infact there have been cases where horses on the ground killed thier handlers.
I've been kicked by a horse I was leading out to a field, It whiped round and double barrelled me, launched me 15ft and right through a post and rail fence. I broke 3 ribs that time.
I've been run over more times then I care to remember, the most recent one was by a horse that I was backing, I'd just gotten a saddle on it and it exploded, came towards me bucking and plunging and I had no where to get out of the way. It broke my shoulder.

I've been kicked by a horse who cow kicked (kicked out forwards and sideways) because it didnt like me spraying flyspray on it (it got one hell of a hiding for that one) and I got internal bleeding from it.

Pride a pony I rescued, has cornered me in a stable before and come at me with feet and teeth and meaning business. All extremely scarey situations that I delt with, some of which could have gotten me killed quite easily. I've however got 20 years of experiance, knowlege and instincts behind me. I have delt with it so many times that I react correctly without having to think about it and I have the confidence to deal with a difficult/dangerous horse. I've only ever had one horse defeat me and I had it shot in the end as it was dangerous and was out to kill someone, It was a very very angry horse that put a lot of very experianced people in hospital, I bought it at an auction where it had been doped to the eyeballs.

That said my current pony has me beaten when it comes to getting on him so I've sent him away to a proffessional who has far more experiance then I do.

I personaly fall into the camp that the OP needs to get rid of this horse ASAP (and no I don't like selling a horse, but better a dead horse then a dead person) and if she wont get rid then she needs to send this horse away to a trainer and gain some experiance/confidence whilst it is away.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Then, ok, you need to add, Faye, that since she messed the horse up and has his messedupness on her conscience, that she had better not get another horse until she is ready to be the leader. She can't go through a string of horses letting them get the better of her and then shipping them off. If she is not going to GET PROFESIONAL HELP and get this horse and herself straight, she needs to learn a long lesson of confidence on other people's horses before she even starts thinking of getting another horse.

I am the voice of the horse straining to be heard over the din of a thousand enthusiasts who want it to be fun and easy and quit when a horse rebels on them (the natural urge to dominance, NOT meanness) when they don't put in the work to be the leader. (I don't mean you here, Faye, but several people on here with horses as a "hobby" or who have bluntly said "horses are supposed to be fun, and if I am not having fun with a horse, I am not going to have him.")

Faye, what are you doing for yourself while your horse is away. Because he will come back from the discipline of the trainer and test you to see if you are going to be a leader this time.

Page 12 of this thread...check it out.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

What am I doing? I'm working to be able to afford this trainer.
his issues are not dominance issues, his issues are fear issues and sometimes just sheer bloody mindedness. He panics when the girth is done up and I have tried every method I know to get him over it. It has not worked so I have sent him away. It is not discipline that we have an issue with as he normaly has perfect manners on the ground
This horse is a horse that I have trained and shown inhand to a high level, I got him over his fear of longreins, I got him over his feet issues and I have trained him to the point that he can be handled on the ground by anyone (including children and he has only just turned 4). I don't need more training to be able to handle this horse (although all training methods that I don't alredy know will be assessed and stored in my head untill a situation requires it), what I need is time and the ability to work the horse 5 or 6 times a day and the ability to take the risk that I might get injured, unfortunatly as I work I can't take that risk. Once he is over his fear of the girth then I can handle the rest of the issues, I will also be spending time with this trainer whilst she is working my horse to learn how she works him. I also have a trainer on hand 24 hrs a day (called mum who has worked with some of the best horses in the world and has probably forgotten more then I will ever know about horses)

I've had several offerd for this horse, people offering me open cheques for him, his success in the showring speaks for itself.

Horses ARE supposed to be fun. I for one work **** hard to be able to afford my hobby (and yes it is a hobby for me, In work I am a chemical engineer working in the cosmetics industry) and I'm not going to get hurt for it. Horses for me are an escape from my everyday stresses and I put a lot of time and money into them, I expect something back from that and I don't expect to have to get badly injured to get it. I have horses because I enjoy riding and competing not because I like looking at them. A horse that cannot be ridden is not the right horse for me. I've had difficult and quirky horses because the quality of the horse I needed in order to compete at the level I want comes with an enormous price tag and I could only ever afford the ones who had issues and thus were priced accordingly.

Yes my ponies tend to stay for life, but they have to earn that right. Pride came right given time and correct handling, that was never in question even from day one. He then went on to become the best pony ever, completly bomb proof show horse who won everything in sight and gave me years of pleasure. He is a pasture puff at the moment. Harvey was difficult and quirky to ride but he taught me so much, he earnt his place, he is anouther pasture puff. Stan and Rian earnt thier places very quickly (both passed away last year).


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

In regard to our little bit back and forth about the person who got kicked in the face by a horse, I said most people getting kicked in the face by a horse would be doing something stupid. (Not saying your friend was doing this.)

I typed in "kicked in the face by a horse" in youtube, and got this.

Good horsie!


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

O, Faye, please...you have to know that fear issues are leader issues too. The frightened horse has to look to you as leader. If the horse gets to feeling secure with the trainer, he is going to have to come back and feel secure with you too. And I don't know what bloody mindedness is...but the horse has to look to you in everything. A trainer will have the horse trained to him, not to you. I have heard it a thousand times. Horses go away and get cured and start right back in with the same behavior when it gets back to the owner. If it's just the girth thing, maybe it will be okay. But dominance and fear are strangely related. A fearful horse looks to you to lead him. If you don't, he will eventually rebel.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

DSJ46 said:


> O, Faye, please...you have to know that fear issues are leader issues too. The frightened horse has to look to you as leader. If the horse gets to feeling secure with the trainer, he is going to have to come back and feel secure with you too. And I don't know what bloody mindedness is...but the horse has to look to you in everything. A trainer will have the horse trained to him, not to you. I have heard it a thousand times. Horses go away and get cured and start right back in with the same behavior when it gets back to the owner. If it's just the girth thing, maybe it will be okay. But dominance and fear are strangely related. A fearful horse looks to you to lead him. If you don't, he will eventually rebel.


 
I see you have changed your post now but your remark before about the horse knowledge I think was really uncalled for. As Faye said above she would be working with the trainer not just sending her horse off to be cured.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

DSJ, this horse is not scared of me. He sees me as a leader, I've introduced him to traffic, tractors, farm machinary, show grounds with funfairs attached. What he is scared of is something being done up ound his belly as it has hurt him in the past. In this case him wanting me to be leader is not an issue, what is the issue is that he likes to be in my back pocket whilst rodeoing and trying to remove the thing on his back. Unfortunatly for me that leads to dangeorus situations because you have a horse who is panicing and wanting to be in your space and you end up with no where to go.

TBH the impression I get from you is that you realy dont have a clue what you are talking about. You got lucky with one horse, you've only ever experiance the one horse. Go away, get more experiance, handle thousands of horses and then comeback and tell me that his issues are leadership issues and maybe I will take you seriously.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yes, apache...I misunderstood her post and took out that one bit. In fact, I wanted to revise the whole thing, as I did misunderstand a bit, but by the time I read it again, it was too late to revise. (That is the only post in this thread I would change.)

Faye, now let me point out your profound bit of ignorance. With a horse's urge to dominate, there is no freaking way in the world you can "get lucky" with a horse (outside of beastiality). You either do it right or not, and the results will tell which way you did it. If you don't know what you are doing, as you insist I don't, the horse will eat you alive. And if you go back and read page 12 of this thread, you will see I do very much know what I am talking about and that, in fact, I have done much research in addition to daily experience with my horse.

By the by, what do you think of Podhojsky's book? Surely being so wise you have read it. It is the Bible of horse training.

But outside of volleying back your insult there with hard facts, I have to say that whatever the problem was, he will have to respond to you, and often horses are sent away and cured and come back with the very same problem. Maybe if it is just this one issue it won't be that way.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Horses are all different, not all have a profound need to dominate. Reeco wouldnt know how to dominate anything! heck a duck could probably dominate him. I've also handled little horses who could be handled by the most timid and nervous child and been happy for it. I think you struck gold and got one of those. If you get it wrong with one of those little saints it realy doesnt matter. 

I did once upon a time own a little saint pony, his name was squeak, mainly because he squeaked when he got excited. You could do anything with that pony. Heck my dog leg him accross the yard with the leadrope. 

Difficult horses, or quirky horses, horses with a bit of fire in them can have "mean" streaks.

Never read the book you quoted, cant be that much of a bible as I've never heard of it.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

O my! Podhojsky isn't much if you haven't read him. O my Lord. And they are calling me arrogant. It's a classic. THE horse training book. I don't want to name drop, but in the process of getting my OTTB, I dealt with some people with more experience in their pinkies than all the people in this little forum, and Podhojsky is the book of choice of these people. In fact, this is where I heard of it.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I mean, I feel like Galileo here. I bring in some science (PAGE 12 of this thread!) to explain away the myth of "bad horses," and get pilloried for it. And I am not pulling this stuff out of my ear. This comes from real research from top trainers. See, I did it the opposite way most do. Most learn to ride and then, if they have the time, learn horses a bit. I learned horses thoroughly before beginning to ride.

O, and Faye, there was PLENTY I had to deal with with my OTTB. I didn't just get lucky. It was a lot of work! Done right! Some do take more or less work, depending on the strength of their instincts, but even the best horse will rebel if given long enough and enough chances. It is such basic horse psychology, proven by equine science.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

Not to sound like I don't believe you but...

Why is this book so great? What is it about exactly? I have never heard of it either.


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## apachewhitesox (Dec 9, 2010)

The only book I can find to do with Podhojsky is rare apparently.

It might help help if you could give more details about the book.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Well, I got a copy on amazon. It's called The Training Of Horse And Rider. Do get a copy and read it. It just really sets down the basics in a clear, concise way that make many people really value it. It was written by a Polish colonel who was a great master of horses. Hope you get it and enjoy.

Here is the amazon link

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Training-Principles-Classical-Horsemanship/dp/0879802359/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309250430&sr=8-1

Make sure to read the reviews there. Anyone serious about horses should read Podhojsky, but I would imagine there isn't two on this forum who have. You read it, and we can be two. You will be rewarded for the experience.

If anyone here gives me a chance, they will see I have really done my homework and that I really do know what I am talking about. I get abrasive when people start getting abrasive with me, but I do know my stuff.


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## corporate pride (Feb 23, 2010)

DSJ46 said:


> I am being preachy. I am preaching the gospel of responsibility.
> 
> And I know enough about living beings to know that any living being does not just go to bed at night nice and suddenly wake up mean.
> 
> ...


 
hmmmmmmmmm interesting. oh so next time i have a horse throw me off i will remember to "not put my face in the way".

the horse didn't spook, the horse bucked over a jump, i actually landed on my feet but went down onto my knees from the force, the horse turned away from the direction of the gate (yes i saw it i was face towards the horse) then double barrelled then turned to the gate and run off. the horse wasn't running when he kicked me. and he on another note, he also useto strike out as well. that's not fear, that's mean


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## corporate pride (Feb 23, 2010)

faye said:


> I had to jump in here, I havent read the rest of the thread.
> 
> One of my worst injuries came from working a horse on the ground. RIDING is not the only way a horse can seriously injure you. Infact there have been cases where horses on the ground killed thier handlers.
> *I've been kicked by a horse I was leading out to a field, It whiped round and double barrelled me, launched me 15ft and right through a post and rail fence. I broke 3 ribs that time.*
> ...


was the horse scared of something?? i'm not serious by the way but according to dsj that horses only do this if something scares them.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Ok, so getting kicked was not your fault. (I never said it was, simply that is is most of the time people get kicked.) But your horse was either afraid or in pain or otherwise distressed. Please do some research in horse psychology. A horse doesn't have the mental function to think out meanness. He was being a horse, reacting in a defensive manner. I mean, you know these are prey animals, right? Anything that upsets them, they strike out. You were in the horse's blind spot. He was distressed. He saw a blur behind him. He struck out. End of story. This is so basic. It wasn't meanness. It was defensiveness. Same with the person who got thrown. The horse got upset by something and you were in the way. That is the risk we all take. Do you know a horse can smell something three miles away. Most of what upsets a horse remains a mystery to us. But they do not have the neurology to calculate meanness. If you do some real reading and not just Horse Illustrated, you will learn how a horse works.

(I don't know if I understood those two ACCIDENTS correctly, but my response stands as far as what drives a horse to strike out.)


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

He is the head of the spanish riding school in Vienna, Austria. I believe his methods are used to train the lipizanner stallions? Extreme high school & disciplined methods, also used in the training of the horses for Cavalia.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

All right, Waresbear! ; ) She knows her Podhajsky! Excellent!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Not really, just heard it the local news when Cavalia was opening in Vancouver, they interviewed the choreographer. He was talking about the training methods and how it took 10 years to train the horses and he mentioned him.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Cool! Podhoksky is a classic. Anyone serious about a horse should read him.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Now, here before I go to bed, I am going to offer just a bit more science. (And this is real...not just me, but you can't get this kind of stuff reading Horse Illustrated. You have to read real equine science books.)

There are three types of animals:

Prey animals: horses, sheep, cows, etc. They do not attack just to do harm. Unprovoked attack would be foolish for a prey animal because it puts them more at risk (think about that hard). They will attack if they feel threatened. A prey animal is not programmed to attack out of aggression, only when they feel threatened. To do otherwise puts their life at risk, since prey animals are vulnerable in a fight to start with. This is a deeply ingrained instinct. IF YOU SEE A PREY ANIMAL STRIKE OUT, IT FEELS THREATENED BY SOMETHING, WHETHER YOU SEE IT OR NOT. There is also some dominance behavior within the herd. It cannot be mean, and it is not senselessly aggressive. To do so puts its life at risk.

Predators: wolves, dogs, big cats, small cats. They will attack to kill. They attack prey animals. They are programmed to do this. They do it mainly for food or, for domesticated predators, because of the instinct to seek meat for food. This is deeply engrained. Predators cannot be mean, though they can be preemptive in their aggression. This is so they never go hungry and because they often have to compete with each other for food, and because they have the instinct to do so.

Higher Predators: Humans. They can be mean. They can be evil. They have big forebrains. They have a prefrontal cortex and a corpus collosum which processes moral decisions and higher thought processes lower animals do not have. They do not function much on instinct, but rather on calculation, thus, allowing them to be mean WHEN THEY DECIDE TO BE. Decision, not instinct, is key here. You need a big forebrain to make complex moral decisions or to act nice or mean. Humans can become mean when things do not go their way or if others do not agree with them or sometimes simply for the joy of meanness. If you want an example of how human meanness can manifest in such a fashion, check on pages 15 and 16 of this thread, particularly the posts by Macabre and Heartprints.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

DSJ46 said:


> A HORSE CAN NOT BE MEAN. A horse cannot kick you maliciously.


This screams right back at you that your experience with a large quantity of individual/different horses is very lacking.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

horsedreamerforheartland said:


> I have a horse, Max.
> i bought him about 7 months ago and ever since, have been losing control of him. He has started kicking when i touch his feet and because i'm not confident and he knows that, i won't go near his feet much anymore especially his back ones. Another problem is that he won't leave his other horse friend and is reluctant to pay any attention to me or move without his friend.
> Today i went riding and he kicked every time i came near him because he knew i wouldn't go near him. I think he is getting worse and worse, soon he may be a disaster. He also bucks when you try to canter him and because his quite lazy, i don't think he wants to canter. i think he has learnt to buck when i want canter so i will stop. I don't know how to fix this, but i know its mostly because my lack of confidence. I just want him to trust me so we can have one of those great relationships like most people say they have. If anyone has any tips i would be grateful.'He has only ever been a trail riding horse.'


He needs a strong leader and unfortunately, you are lacking in that department. Do you understand why he is behaving the way he is? There is a reason why. If you do not understand his behavior, you will not be able to act accordingly to correct it and be his leader. Ground manners are important. If they do not respect you on the ground, they will not respect you in the saddle. If a trainer is not in your cards, then placing him with a more experienced owner would be doing both you and your horse justice. Learn from this. I personally would not wait any longer to make a decision. Your horse is is steadily regressing which makes it more difficult to bring him back, and you may end up getting injured. I wish the both of you well. :thumbsup:


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I tell you what, this has become one of the most entertaining threads I've read in a long time.


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## heartprints62 (Feb 27, 2010)

DSJ46 said:


> Yeah, I got ticked off at some point by the obtuseness (sorry if this word is obscure) of some of you all, but I always had a clear argument and facts. You all just insult when you can't come up with a decent argument. (Macabre, and Heartprints, especially you.)
> 
> Page 12. It's all there.


I am sorry that I insulted you. That truely was not my intent. 
I am glad that you are knowledgable and have a great understanding of the ways of horses. It is an advantage to all if used correctly. Since you know that many people aren't as studied as you, sharing the information is wonderful, but you have gone about it in the completely wrong way. As a student, you would have been a teacher that I never really understood because your "lesson" has just gone in circles and the more frustrated you have gotten, the more unclear the message has become. The few times you have gone back and said "All I wanted was for the OP to just...." was a chance for the followers to get back on the train, but then you went back to chasing rabbits and nothing was accomplished. I understand that it would be a much better world for the horses if everyone knew the science behind it, but the sad fact is that many don't and many will never. You are just going to have to come to that realization. You can help change that fact by sharing your knowledge, but we all need to find a better way of communicating. 
It seems to me that if you exerpt all the "fluff" from this thread, it boils down to the fact that everyone gave the OP thier best advice that they knew how to give. Each person is an individual and has a different experience to back up thier opinions, that does not make them stupid or wrong. Just different from yours. 
One thing that my friend studying all this said was that she sees a severe lack of trust of people on your part (I wont get into all the psychology here that she did) Also that you use information/facts (IE-textbooks) to build a wall of defence against opinions. (The psychology on this is that an opinion cannot be debated by a fact and vise versa. Fact is recreatable or tangable, an opionion is mearly an emotionly based idea. The two cannot be compared apple to apple, this is an apple to orange argument.) Another thing she sees goes hand in hand with the lack of trust of people, which is finding an outlet in horses and making it a cover for some issue that you have with people (this borders on obsession, learning all that you can from every provable, scientific fact so that it cannot be proven wrong or taken away from you. To you this makes people stupid, with ridiculous ideas, or incompetent; in turn, feeding your distrust of people and opposing ideas.) 
Again, I am not trying to insult you, this is coming from a licensed professional counselor (her disclaimer - she wouldn't be able to make an accurate assesment of any person without speaking to them one on one, this is just from whats seen here.)
This thread, as interesting as it has been, as because just a show of flexing muscles. Since the OP has left us all, I believe its time to just call it quits. I hope to see you, DSJ, on other threads spreading you knowledge to others, but please try to do so less defensively. Let people have thier own opinions. On a public forum like this, the best thing to do is to let each person say thier piece, give the best advice you can give from you experience, and move on to the next thread. This thread has become a great example of poor communication. All we ALL wanted to do was help the OP, and we managed to run her off completely. Did we accomplish anything for HER??? I hope so. 


... Thank you for reading this fully if you did take the time ....


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## goldilockz (Aug 1, 2008)

I have my post view set to 40 per page, so page 12 means nothing unless you reference actual post numbers.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

goldilockz said:


> I have my post view set to 40 per page, so page 12 means nothing unless you reference actual post numbers.


This made me giggle.

Why? Because one of my friends here and I went through something similar. She kept saying something about a post on page <number> and I was like, "I do not see what you are talking about". When I finally found the post she was talking about I got to enjoy the cuteness she had been trying to show me all along.



If you click on the post number in the corner you can copy and paste a link directly to that post.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

That was very interesting Heartprints, thanks. Since we are talking about opinions and advice, it's my opinion that most peops are nothing like their online personas, esp. in a public forum. Main reason I would never ask for advise on an internet forum unless it was for entertainment value. This forum is the most entertaining I have came across, because of the knowledgeable, well spoken posters, all have such valid points.


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

I quit reading on page 10 or so. I feel like everything is just being repeated in different ways, we may just all have to agree to disagree 

Now for my opinion. A dangerous horse is a dangerous horse. With a green owner/rider nothing good can come out of it, unless the owner/rider gets help. The owner/rider should not be unsupervised without a trainer for a while with such a horse. However, if the owner/rider cannot afford help for the horse, it is not fair to the horse or themselves to keep it. Horses naturally desire a leader, and without one the horse is unhappy. The owner/rider in fear of the horse does not work with it (or does work with it, and makes things worse) therefore the horse rots in a pasture. This has nothing to do with only having horses to ride. If I have a horse that is lame and can no longer be ridden, I have no problem keeping it (if I can properly care for it). BUT, if the horse is agressive/dangerous, therein the problem lies. 

At the end of the day, the horse is only an animal. I don't think it is worth risking human life around a dangerous animal. There are thousands of safe, sane horses going to waste every day. It is inevitable that horses will be slaughtered every day, why not let the bad ones take the place of the good ones? Sounds harsh, but that is how I feel. Yes, it is a shame if the horse is only bad because it is ruined by a person, but stuff happens. Move on.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yeah, we have had a lot of ticked off people--and I am ok with that as long as we are dealing in fact and not opinion. I feel like I have given that over and over. Now we have actually had intervention and removed posts. So we all need to cool down. So, just as a last attempt here, I will give the post numbers where I do relate real horse science, not opinion, and you all can do with it what you want. For the sake of horses, I hope you give it a chance. No more insults on either side, I hope. No more personal attacks on either side, I hope.

Posts 112, 113, 116 & 176. These sum up the argument against "bad horses" (it comes from science, not just me), my approach to horses, and my true attitude about the situation with the original poster, HorseDreamer. I honestly do think that if these principles are more widely understood, we can have better relationships with our horses, and fewer of them will get undeserved bad reputations and end up in bad places. Honest to goodness, this has been my intent from the get-go, to be a voice for horses.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> No more insults on either side, I hope. No more personal attacks on either side, I hope.


Which is the reason I removed your post. You stated your side of the discussion, many many times. I think that's enough.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

The only post I had removed was one that was admittedly provocative witout information, my very last one last night. Stating facts (not my opinion) over and over, I felt was necessary as people didn't seem to get it. I also had two other people's posts removed because they just insulted me with an information attached.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

DSJ46 said:


> "There are just some horses that are naturally mean."
> 
> I still hold this for nonsense, but ok...let's say some horses are mentally ill...Charles Manson horses. But Max ain't one of them. He was fine when she got him. That means there is a good chance to reverse the process.


That statement shows your inexperiance perfectly. I've come accross one mean horse. Was it possibly hormonal? more then likely. was he a nasty piece of work that was out to do damage? hell yes!!! If I hadnt had him shot would he have killed someone? deffinatly. 




corporate pride said:


> was the horse scared of something?? i'm not serious by the way but according to dsj that horses only do this if something scares them.


No the little horror was being bloody minded, didnt want to go out to the field (away from the feed buckets) and decided to pull away. I wasnt having it, so he reared up, span and then double barrelled me. Was it premeditated? as far as a horse can premeditate things yes, pulling away didnt get him his own way so he tried anouther option. I can tell you that the next time he tried it I made him think the world was ending. He never did it after that.



DSJ46 said:


> Ok, so getting kicked was not your fault. (I never said it was, simply that is is most of the time people get kicked.) But your horse was either afraid or in pain or otherwise distressed. Please do some research in horse psychology. A horse doesn't have the mental function to think out meanness. He was being a horse, reacting in a defensive manner. I mean, you know these are prey animals, right? Anything that upsets them, they strike out. You were in the horse's blind spot. He was distressed. He saw a blur behind him. He struck out. End of story. This is so basic. It wasn't meanness. It was defensiveness.


Ever seen colts playing and tussling for dominance. I knew a woman who was killed because her normaly saint like 3 yr old colt decided that the show ring was the perfect time to play, he reared up, struck out and then came down on her head, crushing it. She died instantly



waresbear said:


> He is the head of the spanish riding school in Vienna, Austria. I believe his methods are used to train the lipizanner stallions? Extreme high school & disciplined methods, also used in the training of the horses for Cavalia.


Was not IS, he died over 100 years ago. 



Eliz said:


> At the end of the day, the horse is only an animal. I don't think it is worth risking human life around a dangerous animal. There are thousands of safe, sane horses going to waste every day. It is inevitable that horses will be slaughtered every day, why not let the bad ones take the place of the good ones? Sounds harsh, but that is how I feel. Yes, it is a shame if the horse is only bad because it is ruined by a person, but stuff happens. Move on.



well said

DSJ have you ever delt with a horse with "red mist" syndrome? those are real "mean" horses. They work them selves up about something and then it is though they get a red mist infront of thier eyes. They attack every thing they see, be it humans, dogs, chickens, barrels, bushes.
Very very dangerou, quite prevalent in OTTB's


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Faye, you use words like "decided" and "premeditated." Science says a horse can't do that. They do not have the brain structures. Please read post 176 in this thread about prey animals. These are simple facts. Write an equine scientist if you don't believe me.

If fact, all of you all...PLEASE...email a university equine scientist about this. Get some facts.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

DSJ46 said:


> Stating facts (not my opinion) over and over, I felt was necessary as people didn't seem to get it.


Perhaps it is you who doesn't get it. You stated your opinion/\'"facts". If people agree, fine, if they don't, drop it.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I won't drop it, because this is so important to horses, that they are viewed correctly. And no...these ARE facts. Stop right now, and find a university equine scientist's email (easy enough to do), and email him/her my post 176, and that person will tell you it is true.

This is another thing wrong with our culture. We don't believe in facts anymore, just opinions. And everybody's opinion is their own, and nothing is truly solid. That is dangerous thinking.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Goldie...I am sad that you are entertained by this. There are things to be learned, if people want, but this is not entertaining. To me, it's very disturbing and shows a huge gap in a lot of people's horse learning, to the detriment of many horses. "I got a screw up horse, and I can't deal with him." Ok, but can you see if all horse owners understood these principles, there would be many fewer messed up horses. I don't discount VERY RARE mentally ill horses. Most, most, most of troubled horses have been screwed up by humans who don't understand. That is what I would like to be curtailed as much as possible.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

DSJ46 said:


> I won't drop it, because this is so important to horses, that they are viewed correctly. And no...these ARE facts. Stop right now, and find a university equine scientist's email (easy enough to do), and email him/her my post 176, and that person will tell you it is true.
> 
> This is another thing wrong with our culture. We don't believe in facts anymore, just opinions. And everybody's opinion is their own, and nothing is truly solid. That is dangerous thinking.


Do you think if you keep saying the same thing over and over and over in repetitive post after repetitive post (sometimes with no posts in between them) that people are going to suddenly decide that you are right?

We have all heard your point of view. Honest.

Saying it again will not change my opinion on the topic, I promise. I still know that BF is what she is. You saying it is not the case will never change her into a sweet and wonderful creature.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Agreed with AB.
I don't think a new point has been made in quite a few pages.
This thread is going in circles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

DOES ANYONE, ANYONE???? SEE WHAT I AM SAYING HERE. Goneriding, your post was pretty sensible.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Science, as much as I love it can be and often is wrong. When you start applying it to living beings then you have no absolutes.

I've seen a welsh B eye up an electric fence, try to push it down and get zapped, so he turned sideways and pushed it with his rug. Has a horse got the brain power to do that? according to science no he hasnt, having seen it i have to say they have. 

I've also seen a pony let itself out of the stable, go round and open all the other stables, he didnt find any food (i presume that was what he was going for) and then headed for the feed room (it was at this point that I intervened). Again science says he should not have been able to reason enough to open the bolts on those doors and he certainly shouldnt have been able to figure out how to open the kickbolt at the bottom of the door.

I've watched a horse wiggle its way out of a rug without damaging itself or the rug (I sat and watched because I was sick to death of finding expensive rugs inside out, soaking wet in the middle of the field). Deffinate premeditation there. The horse must have wanted the rug off and figured out a way to get it off. unfortunatly for me he did it on a regular basis.

I've had enough experiance with horses to know that there are no absolutes with them and this seems to be something you are lacking.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

AlwaysBehind...please, dear. I am not the one I am trying to prove. FACTS are right. This is very important to horses. Email my post 176 to a university equine scientist and ask if this is right. Please do that. This is not my opinion. This is science.

Off the beam again, Faye. Rudimentary intelligent action is not moral decision. Read post 176.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

I have seen what you were saying since you first said it. I'm sure that everyone else has, as well, so there is no point in reiterating it over and over again.
You aren't going to change anyone's mind if they don't already agree with you.
You're truly wasting your....finger muscles? :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

DSJ46 said:


> DOES ANYONE, ANYONE???? SEE WHAT I AM SAYING HERE. Goneriding, your post was pretty sensible.


Why are you yelling at us?

Are you not reading? 

Yes, we see what you are saying. I simply do not agree with you. Not agreeing does not mean I do not understand what you are trying to say.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

This thread has gone on way too long and everyone has had a chance to respond. Time to end it.


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