# Main differences



## wanderlust (Nov 18, 2008)

I see all the debates and such over NH and what I guess could be called "classical" training. What, exactly, is the difference. How would one school of thought deal with something over the other.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Nothing. 

When you get down to the core of it, NH is just working with the horse instead of trying to force it to do something.

"Natural Horsemanship Trainers" have their own ideas, gimmicks whatever just like any trainer. Parelli has horseanalities. Monty Roberts has join up. 

A lot of NH people dont like martingales, tie downs, side reins, etc.
A lot of Classical Trainers will use these when appropriate. 

Peronally, I think if you attempt to understand your horses pray instinct and want to form a bond and don't try to beat it into submission you are a natural horseman. 

Many people think you have to follow a NH trainer. 
But really...we all want a strong bond with our horse.


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## Curly_Horse_CMT (Jun 8, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Nothing.
> 
> When you get down to the core of it, NH is just working with the horse instead of trying to force it to do something.
> 
> ...


Well said...I mean, Monty Roberts didnt always want to be referred to as a "horse whisperer." I actually hate that term, but I dont hate Monty Roberts. I have seen the kind of work that he does and it is truely amazing. I am not really into Parelli, but I think he is a good person.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I agreee. I am not into Parelli at all. But he is helping people with their horses, so I can't hate him as a person.

You just have to remember that all of these people are TRAINERS. They're not horsey gods and they don't have a secret cure-all. So don't hold them on some sort of pedestal. Just because trainer x says something is right, don't force it if it's not working for you and your horse =)


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## We Control The Chaos (Sep 19, 2007)

From my understanding...

there is not a difference. it is all the same idea and is taught different ways.


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## Midwest Paint (Oct 21, 2008)

Some things I have noticed in seeing a difference in "traditional methods" with the "natural horsemanship" methods, are approaches I guess you would say. Now terming is generic so dont hold me to it, LOL. I think it has been covered better already on that one, but as for what things I see differently, are that with the "classic or traditional" methods, they are more mechanical and involve less using the horses natural tendancies. When I first started out working with horses, there were more mechanical tools being used to get the horse to submit to the demands placed. Items I see not being used in NH, are mechanical hacks, twitches, loud bits, and even some of the more corrective hobbles. It also used to be that when it came to saddle work on a fresh horse, the saddle was put on and you go for a ride until they stopped with the bucking and rearing. The NH approach places more emphasis on working with the horse on the ground prior to "just getting on".

I appreciate this as not only is the horse more interested in learning and undergoing training, but as you get a little older your body cant take as much punishment as it did in your earlier years, LOL! Not to mention the horse fairs better and longer.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

You guys seem to be talking about 'NH and traditional'. She said classical, and I'm not sure if you mean classical in the sense of dressage-old-masters-in-France-and-Germany classical, but if you do then you guys seemed to miss it a little.

TRUE classical trainers don't use tiedowns, side-reins, etc. (If they do, then they're not 'classical', lol). They seem to have a partnership with their horse that although different from parelli, achieves many things and is more of a 'business-working realtionship'. They do a lot of work on the ground, and when it comes to true collection, it blows parelli out of the water. (Yes, I've seen Magic 'piaffe', if that's what you'd like to call it, and I've seen their 'collected' gaits.) Parelli seems to concentrate a LOT on making sure every resistance is utterly gone... to me, it feels like you are continually making your horse more like an animal and less like a partner. It searches out every resistance and nullfies it instantly (German classical riders do this too). French classical, on the other hand, doesn't systematically work and chip away at resistance. They avoid resistance and boost the horse's confidence in himself; you eventually get to the point where you have no resistance, and at the same time, a very proud animal. {Edit: I used the word 'avoid' and that's not quite right... they just deal with the resistance when it arrives but never train on that. ie, if the horse resisted the bit in the stop and rooted his nose out, they'd relax his jaw and move on instead of schooling stops. Makey the sensey?} I think parelli takes the 'proud' aspect away from the horse. Parelli horses are very content, probably very happy, but they are not proud. They are simply content and willing to do their job.

In the end, Parelli gives you a very supple, very broke horse that is great for most shows and trail riding. But if your quest is true collection, they don't really begin to touch on it. Which isn't really an issue if you're not interested in it!

For ground work though, I do tend to like the foundation parelli can lay on a horse, and my horses know the seven games (shock, gasp!). I own parelli halters and leads (through halfcircleranch.com because parelli's prices say one thing: Greedy!), and love using them on unbroke horses, babies, and re-trains.

I hope this answers your question!


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I think I said it on a different post but I like Parelli for the basics -- Understanding horse behavior, groundwork, whatever. I don't really think it is useful for riding. My first response wasn't really talking about Classical Dressage riders so if that is what the OP was asking, I'm sorry. 

MidWest Paint: I dont follow any NH trainer, but I also disagree with using harsh bits or gadgets to try and fix a problem. I think that if you just understand horse behavior, you will see the flaw in this. This is why my first post was kind of saying how similar nh is with what most riders do. 

Even if you don't follow a NH trainer, I think you can still work naturally with your horse. 

And I think SOME gadgets can be really benificial to a horse. (As well as lunging which some disagree with)


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## Midwest Paint (Oct 21, 2008)

Spastic Dove: LOL.. You didnt think I was indicating you were for any one specific trainer, do you! I dont think I even touched that one, LOL! I do agree with you about that point as well! I also agree with you on the "understanding behavior" aspect! That, IMO, is very key to an excellent resolution!

As for the classical riding, I too think that it was more terming then specific discipline, thats what I understood as well!


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## wanderlust (Nov 18, 2008)

thanks everyone, thank you mayfield. 

I had read an article on NH and just didn't get what was different. This makes it a bit more clear. I knew there had to be differences, i just didn't know what.


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

i have nothing constructive to say as it has already been said i just want to offer everyone a big choc chip cookie for keeping this thread so pleasant to read 

keep it up guys


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I guess I am a little confused. Does "classical" training only apply to dressage or to every discipline? When I think "classical" or "traditional", I picture the old cowboys putting a blind on the horse, cinching the saddle down, and climbing aboard for a wild ride. But then again, I am not intimately familiar with anything other than western. Thanks in advance for the explaination.


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## Midwest Paint (Oct 21, 2008)

Like you Smrobs, I am not too familiar with the more dressage world. But as for "traditional", I think it would fall more in that area. "Classical" on the other hand... Not a clue!


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

classical - traditional to me are essentially the same thing. in my eyes anyways. someone else may have a different spin on it


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Oh, no. I was just saying that I don't need a trainer to let me know I shouldnt use a long shanked bit on a three year old =P -- We are pretty much on the same side lol


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Midwest Paint said:


> Some things I have noticed in seeing a difference in "traditional methods" with the "natural horsemanship" methods, are approaches I guess you would say. Now terming is generic so dont hold me to it, LOL. I think it has been covered better already on that one, but as for what things I see differently, are that with the "classic or traditional" methods, they are more mechanical and involve less using the horses natural tendancies. When I first started out working with horses, there were more mechanical tools being used to get the horse to submit to the demands placed. Items I see not being used in NH, are mechanical hacks, twitches, loud bits, and even some of the more corrective hobbles. It also used to be that when it came to saddle work on a fresh horse, the saddle was put on and you go for a ride until they stopped with the bucking and rearing. The NH approach places more emphasis on working with the horse on the ground prior to "just getting on".
> 
> I appreciate this as not only is the horse more interested in learning and undergoing training, but as you get a little older your body cant take as much punishment as it did in your earlier years, LOL! Not to mention the horse fairs better and longer.


Both yes and no in my eyes..

Yes, I'm not afraid of using a curb bit to tell the horse what I want.
But no, I'm not skipping his natural behaviour. 
Like.. I ride ''Art of riding'' or whatever to call it, classical maybe. Think of the spanish ridingschool and you're near.
In a way it's very much mechanical means (I don't use side reins like they tho). But what struck me when I started was; I didn't have to teach the horse anything! He was unstarted under saddle, yet my instructor got up and made shoulder in and shoulder outs, lenghtening the strides and etc, without her hands or legs but just the weight and seat. And he reacted like he knew it already even tho he couldn't possbly been through it before. That's what I call working naturally.
the only thing he had to learn was to follow the bit, and that came afterwards. He also had to learn to accept the legs touching his sides, because that was a little scary  But that's besides the point.

I feel that NH people want to use as little tack as possible, and sure that's fine especially seeing how many people are abusing their tack. But when tack can help without doing harm, why not use it?
I also see how NH has become a name for methods.. and these methods are supposed to teach common sense to people. But it doesn't work that way.. when you start to work after a method rather than your head, where is the freedom to use common sense? No methos works for all horses without adjustment. 

Anyways, as I see it that's the differense: The normal horse world use tack, and parts of it does skip a lot of the natural behaviour and instead finds it necessary to teach the horse everything instead of using the way the horse already knows. The NH world refuses tack (except special made, ''natural'' tack that cost a lot of money, in differense to the un-natural tack that doesn't cost quite as much but still is expencive) and tries to teach common sense through methods.

As you might see I' not fond of NH, I think the trainers do a good job, normally, but I've seen too many times when people try to mimic it and doesn't really understand it. On the other hand, mechanical devices are also used wrongly in many cases. The differense between NH and other ways of riding is very clear but hard to describe.. and also depends on how you do the ''other'' ways. There is so mch more than NH and Traditional.. traditional what? Is traditional sacking the horse out whn it's tied dwn, or is it simply starting the horse lke f.x dressage people or jumpers do nowadays; with tack, half fast with some time for the horse to adjust but still a lot of domination.. or what is traditional or classical really?


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## drop_your_reins (Nov 4, 2007)

I don't necessarily believe in Natural Horsemanship to the degree it is advertised. I have a remarkable bond with my gelding that has built up over time. I don't think games and the like could strengthen it. I understand him to the fullest, and he understands me. I've used all kinds of equipment NH trainers would frown upon. (curb bits, double bridles, martingales, draw reins, etc.) Yet I can ride him bareback and in a halter at a full gallop, if I slip one way or another he'll naturally slow down to let me fix my position.. I've never fallen off of him bareback, and I've done full out gallops up hills (the hay field at my farm is on a huge hill, and the road is next to it, we wait at the bottom of a hill.. sometimes for a half hour-45 minutes for a car to come and race the car up.. as soon as he hears the car he starts, sometimes before I even realize the car is coming).. I jump him, sometimes a little higher than usual bareback, we gallop through the trails.. We've wound down a lot because he's getting older and I'm training my filly now... but back in our hay day..  

I think its all the same, you can communicate with horses one the same level and achieve the same bonds with horses if you take the time to understand your horse... You don't have to play games or participate in the other techniques in order to achieve the same thing. You can use different types of tack. Obviously if my horse doesn't like a certain bit or piece of equipment, I can tell.. and I don't force it on them. I wanted to introduce a tomb thumb curb to my filly, and she HATED it. I haven't used it since. She has a very light mouth, and even though it's the gentlest curb, she would rear and throw fits in the long-lines with it.. so we switched to a happy mouth mullen mouth curb, and she likes that much better. I've used checks and running martingales on my filly.. She would get a little snippy and try to buck and rear under saddle. I no longer have that problem, the martingale and check helped me keep her head in a position where she couldn't buck or rear easily. Although, if she really wanted to, she could still buck me off.. but she learned it was an inappropriate behavior and it ended. 

A lot of times, NH takes a long time for noticeable changes (especially with horses with vices) to be seen. Using equipment is criticized as taking short cuts, but I don't see it that way. I think it can be a clearer path of communication. Sometimes people try to communicate with horses the same as horses communicate with each other. But we will never truly understand those lines of communication. The best way we can communicate with them is to understand them and let them understand us. Using equipment, IMO, should show them what you want and help them build muscle in different ways to achieve goals. 

Now that Scarlet understands bucking and rearing is not acceptable, I can ride without a check or martingale. She keeps her head in virtually the same spot. I never forced her head in an unnatural position, I never used the equipment to tightly or abused it. She has a light mouth, and I rode her with a light hand and a minimum contact rein. The martingale gave me downward leverage for rearing, and the check gave upward leverage for bucking. If she tried to get her head too low (she had several inches of room either way) as if to buck, she would feel increasing pressure from the check, and vice versa. 

Overall, I see nothing wrong with the humane use of equipment.. I have nothing against NH, but its not something I follow. I do what comes natural, I understand my horses, and I bond with them. In a way I participate in NH, but all forms of training should have some NH concepts incorporated. I just NH coined what people do, should do, or have been doing for years with horses, and made money off of it. 

I think the purest way to bond with a horse is to groom it, let it loose in a field or arena and watch what it does naturally. Spend time with them in their stalls and fields. Sometimes when I want to be alone I just sit in Smokey's stall and watch him eat hay. When we went to New England (a huge A-rated show), they left the lights on in the tents. You could tell he wasn't getting much sleep. (Some of the trainers are crackpots and ride their horses at all hours of the night!) I came to get him ready for one of our classes during the day, and I saw that he finally fell asleep and was laying down. I went in and he didn't even wake up (he usually does, you know how light horses sleep), I sat down by his head and took it in my lap, and just let him sleep while I petted (is that a word? lol) him. It was one of my favorite and rare experiences. My horse always gets up as soon as he hears me, I don't get to watch him sleep a lot. My trainer came by the stall and was calling my name, I was like "I'm in here!" and she looked in and I don't think she expected to see me holding him while he slept. 

If that's not a natural experience, IDK what is. I wonder how many serious NH followers have had similar experiences to me.. 

I think you should do what you feel comfortable with and natural. I have done some of the Monty Roberts stuff with my gelding, like pushing him away until he comes up to you. But horses are naturally curious, at least my gelding is and I think he would have came up to me anyway. I like Monty Roberts stuff.. but no one else has made me drop my jaw at their "revelations".


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## Midwest Paint (Oct 21, 2008)

I would have to agree with you on that as well. Though I am not a fan of mechanical means, I think common sense and insight into using tack or items that most of NH Showman do not, can be helpful. Now granted I still avoid mechanical tack by all means possible. I too feel that in the non-NH worlds that these items are heavily depended on, and when a more observant look into what the root of the problem is would prevent one from going to that next level.

In the mechanical tack area, I do my best to work with the least possible and go from there. Most often that is all that is needed. But on a few occassions I will have a "trouble or problematic" horse come in that has already been conditioned inappropriately and wont respond or respond negatively to the minimal pressure applied. My 10yr broodmare project is one key example. After saddle breaking her, things had always been a fight and she would not respond to the training snaffle I was using. Behaviors such as constant chewing the bit, pulling hard against the bit to cause her cherries at the crook of the lips, and throwing her face against lead pressure encouraged me to go to a quiet reigning bit. There was minimal changes in the design, but just barely enough that it changed her responce immediately and many of the habits stopped.

Now I too like the basic principles of NH. But I am not one to use one specific "trainers" principles and only that. I like to learn as much as I can from as many as I can, well known and not well known or populised trainers to refine my own. I in no way have any problems with anyone who finds one specific trainers methods the type they like and works for. If it does them well, then more power to them! I happen to see a lot of the basic key concepts played over and over in the vairety of NH Showman out there, from Cox, Parelli, Anderson to Roberts and many others. Its just that each have a different view and approach differently when it comes to specifics. Thats good in that it can give those others that are interested in NH a variety to chose from. Their equipment.. on the other hand.. Well, I guess they got to make money! LOL!


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Midwest Paint said:


> Now granted I still avoid mechanical tack by all means possible. I too feel that in the non-NH worlds that these items are heavily depended on, and when a more observant look into what the root of the problem is would prevent one from going to that next level.


Part of the non-NH world  Except from that I agree with you


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

Okay, I know nothing about 'natural horsemanship'. I don't really know anything about any particular training method and have no on-the-ground experience with them. However, from loads of reading and seeing others discuss this sort of thing, I would hazard a guess at defining a distinction.

It's important for a rider to be able to communicate with and understand their horse, and use techniques for this that avoid cruelty and get the point across clearly. For many riders, this is 'common sense'.

However, many of these 'natural horsemanship' trainers and instructors offer a programme that guides you through these techniques and offers suggested schedules and training routines. It is an aid to learning about these technniques.

Now, these programmes can vary in their quality: they may teach you the steps but not the essential reasoning behind them, they may have a huge commercial venture attached, they may be marketed with gimmicks or as applying to every horse when they do not.

In some cases, these programmes can be seen by their aficiandos as all-encompassing methods for training their horses. Others, however, see them as a non-exclusive aid. Or, indeed, as rubbishy gimmicks that do not actually help a rider or horse.


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## Midwest Paint (Oct 21, 2008)

*Very well stated..*



claireauriga said:


> Okay, I know nothing about 'natural horsemanship'. I don't really know anything about any particular training method and have no on-the-ground experience with them. However, from loads of reading and seeing others discuss this sort of thing, I would hazard a guess at defining a distinction.
> 
> It's important for a rider to be able to communicate with and understand their horse, and use techniques for this that avoid cruelty and get the point across clearly. For many riders, this is 'common sense'.
> 
> ...


You have hit it pretty well! IMO, I think this would fall more to the aspect of the NH trainers that are more well known. But I did want to support one important thing you stated that is key..
*use techniques for this that avoid cruelty and get the point across clearly.*​Along with the cruelty aspect, the point of getting the point across is detailed better then what has been with a lot of traditional training techniques. I will add however, that in these "programs" most still lack the detail of "why" in "getting the point across" in depth. The "how" physically is discussed, but more importantly is understanding when each responce is understood by us. I think that would help many who are new into the equine field. There are too many people who will buy into a program and still not fully envelop the understanding of the horses responses. So if they could beef that up a little more, then you would have much more perspective into the training.

From reading your post, I am to assume you are not overly enthused with many of the popularized NH out there? LOL! I have to agree that yes, there are too many gimmicks applied to their programs, but I guess they need to make money too.

I think whats basic about NH, is understanding and applying good training, with minimal negative impact to the horse with the minimal amount and application of tools. Many out there become dependant on "needing" this tool and that tool for this and that, and before you know it, theres something new out there we need to get to do that too. I think this is where NH differs from many other types out there. Sadly, yes, there are a few of those "icons" out there that emphasize purchasing their "tools of the trade" to accomplish NH training.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

There are differences between classical/traiditional and NH. To me, NH is Parelli. He is not the first one to ever do something like this, and he says that all the time, but he is the one who coined the term and he is who the majority of other "NH" trainers are copying. So this is where I'm coming from.

In NH (again to me NH is Parelli) there are core differences in how we do things with horses. We do not punish horses. I know some people will argue with this, but we don't. We don't smack horses, we don't yank on them, we don't whack them with whips, we don't yell, etc. Now I'm not saying everyone who does classical/traditional, or whatever you want to call it, will whack a horse with a whip when he's "bad" but some people do. And I by no means think that if you don't follow NH you abuse your horses. People who say that are stupid and should never open their mouths. In NH we just cause the right thing to be easy and the wrong thing to be difficult, but there is a good and a bad way to do this. 

The way we look at horse behavior is quite different. If a horse bites you, we don't smack him and tell him off, we figure out WHY he is biting and then solve it. We (collectively) understand that even negative feedback is a direct result of what WE did and that any problem we have with the horse is because of US, whether it's because we aren't patient enough, soft enough, or we aren't a better leader for our horse, whatever. People often think of behavior such as being hard to catch as normal, but your horse is telling you something and if you want the relationship to be good you HAVE to fix it. I would be upset of my horses ran away from me, that means they don't want to be with me. But by following NH my horses run to me.

Everything we do with horses is different, from the way we lead, to the way we think, to the way we ride and where we put the saddle. It's always what is best for the horse, not what is convinient for the human. Just because something has been done for ages doesn't mean it's what's best for the horse. If a horse opens his mouth while being ridden people usually put a flash noseband on. That is convinient for the human but it is horrible for the horse mentally and emotionally. Same goes for tie downs, side/draw reins, martingales, harsher bits, certain nosebands, etc. 

NH is different from classical/traditional. What will really show this are the horses themselves. But do I look down on people who don't follow NH? Not at all. I have good friends who don't follow NH, they respect my way of doing things and I respect their way of doing things. Doesn't mean I agree with them but not everyone has to agree with me. The world just doesn't work that way.


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> NH is different from classical/traditional.  What will really show this are the horses themselves. But do I look down on people who don't follow NH? Not at all. I have good friends who don't follow NH, they respect my way of doing things and I respect their way of doing things. Doesn't mean I agree with them but not everyone has to agree with me. The world just doesn't work that way.


I know you say you respect other ways, but I can't help but think that you're saying that if my horse comes to me in the pasture, opens the mouth to take the bit, follows me around like a puppy and is generally well mannered and seems to like his work - I must be doing NH. Which I'm not.

And that if he doesn't come in the pasture etc it means he doesn't like being with me and I'm not a good owner for my horse because I only do what's the easiest for me.

Then what if I do smack the horse when he walks into me or if he would bite me, and he still runs to me in the pasture? Whats that?


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Zab said:


> I know you say you respect other ways, but I can't help but think that you're saying that if my horse comes to me in the pasture, opens the mouth to take the bit, follows me around like a puppy and is generally well mannered and seems to like his work - I must be doing NH. Which I'm not.
> 
> And that if he doesn't come in the pasture etc it means he doesn't like being with me and I'm not a good owner for my horse because I only do what's the easiest for me.
> 
> Then what if I do smack the horse when he walks into me or if he would bite me, and he still runs to me in the pasture? Whats that?


Don't get defensive Zab. You put an incorrect spin on my words. Let me explain.

If your horse does come up to you in the pasture, takes the bit willingly, etc. then good for you. You must be doing something right.

If the horse doesn't come up to you in the pasture and he ignores you, walks or runs away, etc. then yes, I would say that the horse doesn't want to be with you (not you, people in general). It could be that he is afraid/doesn't trust you or it could be that he just doesn't see you as someone worth paying attention to. Either way it's the person's fault. But that doesn't mean that you are a bad owner. Do not put words in my mouth. It just means that something you are doing is not working for the horse. It could be something as simple as spending a lot more undemanding time with him. Or it could be a combination of things.

If you do smack a horse for coming into your space and he still comes up to you in the pasture I would say, based on what I know, I would say you have a pretty confident horse, one that is innately confident. Smacking him might not be enough to make him not trust you, but it sure isn't helping take the relationship to an even more amazing level. You could easily correct the horse in a less predatory way and have the horse respect it, because even confident horses do not respect a smack.


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## wanderlust (Nov 18, 2008)

Spirithorse....Can you tell me how you would fix the biting, if not using a sharp smack? I understand the basis for the differences between NH and "other" methods, but not anything specific. Thanks.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> There are differences between classical/traiditional and NH. To me, NH is Parelli. He is not the first one to ever do something like this, and he says that all the time, but he is the one who coined the term and he is who the majority of other "NH" trainers are copying. So this is where I'm coming from.


Absolutely disagree. The only thing Parelli can claim is that he saw a way to package NH better than other people....not that he was the first. NH was practiced by others before Parelli was even born. Parelli just just saw the dollar signs better. Even the old dressage masters practiced it but they wanted to benefit the horse and not their pocketbook and they shared what they knew. The books they wrote often show examples of what REAL NH is. Waldemar Seung is an example.

And no way would any other NH name out there ever be considered as copying Parelli. Since TRUE NH is simply common sense it is inherited by everyone (however in some cases I truly wonder...LOL).


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

wanderlust said:


> Spirithorse....Can you tell me how you would fix the biting, if not using a sharp smack? I understand the basis for the differences between NH and "other" methods, but not anything specific. Thanks.


My warmblood came to me with a biting problem. Here is what I did, and what I would do with a lot of horses.

First, I watch for his thresholds. Where am I in relation to his personal space when he starts to feel defensive? When does he start thinking about it? I noticed that when I touched the underside of his neck and his chest he would try to bite me. So I did A LOT of approach and retreat....rub where he was comfortable, go a bit further, then retreat before he got ugly. He was simply giving me feedback, which was "I'm not giving you permission to touch me there." And if I were to smack him for giving me feedback, which is what everyone else had done, I would damage the relationship and his feeling of defensiveness would be validated. I also noticed that if I was standing square at him and tried to touch his chest, like if I wanted him to back up, he would try to nip, but if I stood with him at my shoulder, facing away from him, and asked him to back up he would not try to bite me. So I did a lot of approach and retreat with my energy. Before too long he felt no desire to bite me because I had earned his trust and respect by not acting like a predator. I proved to him that I DID understand what he was telling me and that I was putting the relationship first by listening to his feedback, not telling him off for it. 

Some horses will bite because they don't like you. Plain and simple. And in this case I would do everything I could to prove to that horse that I was a good thing......I would spend tons of time letting him graze, scratching itchy spots, etc. I need to change his perception of me. And smacking won't change things for the better.

If I know a horse has the tendency to bite I will keep them away from me. A horse can't bite me if he's --------> over there:lol: Then I work on getting the horse to turn away from me, yield his front end, etc. and then when he has positive reflexes I will go in closer and work more up front with the horse. I have no problem using body blocks but I will not smack a horse. I also reward the slightest try so the horse knows I see him trying and that can make a horse feel less defensive.


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> Don't get defensive Zab. You put an incorrect spin on my words. Let me explain.
> 
> If your horse does come up to you in the pasture, takes the bit willingly, etc. then good for you. You must be doing something right.
> 
> ...


I'm not defensive, I just want to understand how you mean, because it doesn't sound right to me.

Horses smack each others too. I know this is a completely ancient excuse that's sometimes used by people who whip their hoses senseless, but it is a fact. If a horse desn't lsten to another horses warnings, the other horsewill go through with the warning or the firt horse won't listento him next time either. Of course if the horse goes into my space or bite me, I have missed the earlier signs, or hasn't responded right to them, and I have to figure out what was wrong. But my immediate response is to smack him, because no matter what - he's not allowed to bite, kick or physically push me away. If he only enters my ''bubble'' tho, I just back him. My own horse backs away for a small signal.


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Spirithorse said:


> If I know a horse has the tendency to bite I will keep them away from me. A horse can't bite me if he's --------> over there:lol: Then I work on getting the horse to turn away from me, yield his front end, etc. and then when he has positive reflexes I will go in closer and work more up front with the horse. I have no problem using body blocks but I will not smack a horse. I also reward the slightest try so the horse knows I see him trying and that can make a horse feel less defensive.


And what do you do if the horse jst won't move away from you no matter how much you try to make him turn or go away? I've met a horse like that, she had the entire pasture to go in but when I came in there to do something else (cleaning it actually) she attacked. Only thing that got her away from me was throwing the buket towards her face and hit her with it. I know this isn't generally a normal behaviour, but what would you have done?
I'm not claiming she was a very happy horse then either, she needed to work and have something to do. In the end of that summer she cae to you with a much nicer attitude, didn't try to eat your feet if you rode but had her ears forqward and lots of energy - instead of as soon as you walked two feet she would turn and/or bite at your toes really hard. I didn't go and hit her every day, I didn't hit her when she reached for my toes either, but I did hit her when she refused to move away from me.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

That's fair enough for a horse who is biting out of dislike/not giving you eprmsiion to touch him somewhere, etc. What would be your approach for a horse that has been treat spoiled, and bites at hands/clothes etc expecting treats? My horse did this, and my way of dealing with is was to stop giving treats by hand, and to pop him on the nose if he attempted to bite. What would be your approach, spirithorse? 

Also, one more thing. I have an arab pony who has a habit of flipping his head up. It is not constant, and he is quite capable of being ridden around with hsi head in a normal position, but when doign fast/exciting work, which I do a lot of, he will flip his head up. Now putting a martingale on him, loosly, will stop him even attempting this, so it doesn't come into play. He has been checked for a sire back, has had his teeth floated, has no ulcers etc, so ti is not a pain reaction, but without the martingale he will flip his head up all the time when excited. What would be your approach to this problem?

This is all very interesting :]


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## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Another thing I probably should say too is that if I do smack/hit a horse, it always have the chance to move away from me, because that's what I'm telling it to do. I can tap him on the shoulder or something if he's tied up when I groom or anything and he's not paying attention to me but maybe is looking at something and forget that I'm standing there. 
I don't count that as smacking either, it's just asking for his attention.
I don't really tie him up very often either I just realized xD He had this fit with the saddle, showed slight panic when the girth was strapped. All he had to do to get calm again was to back (or walk but the wall is in the way) two or three steps, which he couldn't if he was tied up. So I let him loose instead. That problem is gone but I normally leave him loose anyway.

Sometimes I se people holding on tightly to the halterrope and correcting a pushing horse by hitting it with the loose end.. I've never understood what the horse is supposed to learn by that. Same when they hit a horse that's tied up to be groomed and is stepping around or maybe even biting at them. (I wouldn't tie that horse up, I'd put a long rope through the tying ring so that I can let him move away if he'd start getting bitey.. fortunatly I don't have much experience with those horses tho) If I hit a horse I'm just telling him to get out of my way because he refused to listen to me and is getting dangerous by his pushing/biting/kicking. I can't both hold onto the rope and push him away.. that doesn't make sense.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Zab said:


> I'm not defensive, I just want to understand how you mean, because it doesn't sound right to me.
> 
> Horses smack each others too. I know this is a completely ancient excuse that's sometimes used by people who whip their hoses senseless, but it is a fact. If a horse desn't lsten to another horses warnings, the other horsewill go through with the warning or the firt horse won't listento him next time either. Of course if the horse goes into my space or bite me, I have missed the earlier signs, or hasn't responded right to them, and I have to figure out what was wrong. But my immediate response is to smack him, because no matter what - he's not allowed to bite, kick or physically push me away. If he only enters my ''bubble'' tho, I just back him. My own horse backs away for a small signal.


Yes, horses do "up their phases" with each other and to us it can look pretty extreme so we have a tendency to think "I couldn't hurt that horse. He gets kicked all the time. A smack would be nothing!" While it is true we can not hurt a horse physically by smacking him, we damage the relationship and rapport and the way the horse views us. A human, a predator, smacking a horse is completely different than another horse, another prey animal, kicking or biting another horse. Prey animal vs. predator. No matter how broke and domesticated our horses are, unless we prove to them beyond a shadow of a doubt that we are not predators they WILL view us as such, someone not to be trusted with their feelings, emotions, thoughts, whatever the case may be.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

Zab said:


> And what do you do if the horse jst won't move away from you no matter how much you try to make him turn or go away? I've met a horse like that, she had the entire pasture to go in but when I came in there to do something else (cleaning it actually) she attacked. Only thing that got her away from me was throwing the buket towards her face and hit her with it. I know this isn't generally a normal behaviour, but what would you have done?
> I'm not claiming she was a very happy horse then either, she needed to work and have something to do. In the end of that summer she cae to you with a much nicer attitude, didn't try to eat your feet if you rode but had her ears forqward and lots of energy - instead of as soon as you walked two feet she would turn and/or bite at your toes really hard. I didn't go and hit her every day, I didn't hit her when she reached for my toes either, but I did hit her when she refused to move away from me.


If a horse won't move away from me I will up my phases. But I ALWAYS give the horse PLENTY of opportunity to move out of the way first. If I am teaching the horse something I take a lot of time. If the horse knows what I am asking and still ignores me (which would be my fault for not putting enough emphasis on that part of my foundation) I will give a loooooong first ask (but still clear) and then a quick phase to back it up. But I do this in a way the horse will 1) understand and 2) respect. If I just go out and whack him for not moving that is not something worth respecting. But I will flick the horse in the chest with the lead rope. And then my "phase 4" as it's called in Parelli also depends on the horse. Some horses would leave the planet if you flicked them, sometimes just "the look" is enough for an effective phase 4. Some horses need to be flicked, but what I recently learned from an instructor is that flicking the hair only with intensity is enough to get your message across. Any more than that and you will be desensitizing your horse. I've used this idea ever since with my very dominant warmblood and the results have been fantastic. I rarely have to flick him anymore. And there was no smacking involved.

I don't know what I would have done with that mare. I wasn't there and able to see the horse and observe her. I would have had to be there.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

wild_spot said:


> That's fair enough for a horse who is biting out of dislike/not giving you eprmsiion to touch him somewhere, etc. What would be your approach for a horse that has been treat spoiled, and bites at hands/clothes etc expecting treats? My horse did this, and my way of dealing with is was to stop giving treats by hand, and to pop him on the nose if he attempted to bite. What would be your approach, spirithorse?
> 
> Also, one more thing. I have an arab pony who has a habit of flipping his head up. It is not constant, and he is quite capable of being ridden around with hsi head in a normal position, but when doign fast/exciting work, which I do a lot of, he will flip his head up. Now putting a martingale on him, loosly, will stop him even attempting this, so it doesn't come into play. He has been checked for a sire back, has had his teeth floated, has no ulcers etc, so ti is not a pain reaction, but without the martingale he will flip his head up all the time when excited. What would be your approach to this problem? This is all very interesting :]


For the spoiled horse I still would not smack him. Horses who are greedy with treats are usually very sociable, like people and are generally friendly and might be said to be "naughty" at times. Their minds are generally busy and they are thinkers. Sometimes the horse will act dominant. Knowing this about their personalities is my first step to dealing with a horse like this. First off, I would not feed treats out of my hand at this point. No more of that. Second, I would work on getting the horse out of my space and to be able to stand and wait patiently. In doing this I NEVER move my feet. This shows the horse I am alpha in a very easy and simple way. I would work long-range with the horse first, getting him moving away from me with his front end, etc. I would work my way in gradually the more soft and obediant the horse became. Always rewarding the slightest tries. If I am up close and the horse starts to mouth on me I could either do body blocks, rub his nose/face REALLY FAST to make it very irritating, or back the horse up, depending on the horse's personality, dominance level and how determined they are. I've used all strategies and they all work very well.....as long as you use each strategy with the right horse. Since these horse's minds are generally very busy I would set up a lot of puzzles for him to figure out, so his brain is occupied on the task and not on trying to get a treat from me.

Once my foundation was working really well and the horse has all but stopped the behavior I can then add a treat for motivation/reward when the horse does something really nice. As soon as I give it to them we are off doing something else to keep his mind busy.

For the head flipping, this is a typical trait for an arab. I can tell you I wouldn't ride with a martingale. The reason is because like I said earlier, this is convinient for the human but is not good for the horse. I'm not saying you are a bad owner, I'm just saying it's natural for us humans to look for something of that nature to fix problems. He knows when the martingale is on and he knows what would happen if he flipped his head. So he doesn't do it. When it's off he knows and will flip his head. This should tell you something. The martingale is NOT fixing your problem, it's masking it.

Without seeing the horse, being able to read him in the situations where he will flip his head, I can only offer some ideas. When horses flip their heads like that usually that is a sign of confidence and/or dominance. Does he get impulsive during exciting activities? Do you hold him back or have constant contact on his mouth? If you do then that might play a big part in this issue. If you don't, it might just be that he is excited and exhuberant and is wanting to play. Arabs can have a tendency to be that way. Also, what kind of bit are you using? Sometimes horses will toss their heads if they don't like the bit. When he does flip his head are his ears back? Does his attitude seem negative?

I assume you have checked your saddle to make sure it fits properly. Have you had him looked at by a chiropractor? If not that might be worth a visit, just to make sure.

Again, without seeing the situation it's hard to say. I have a couple more ideas floating around in my head but they would depend on his emotional and mental state while he's doing the head flipping.


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## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

Turns out one of my friends who lives in Kent ... her sister has borrowed a mix of various NH methods to work with her horse. My friend passed on my questions to her sister and reported the responses. Sister prefers Monty Roberts, but here are some excerpts from the conversation:

Claire says:
What about savvy string?
Claire says:
I always think that means silly string xD
Claire says:
-grabs a can, sprays a horse with it-
Claire's friend says:
"That's just a rope around its neck." And she made a funny face.
Eddeh says:
I accidentally asked, "What do you think of Petrelli?" instead of Parelli and she was like, "I love him. He can do anything anyone near him can do..." so I had to kick her.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> For the spoiled horse I still would not smack him. Horses who are greedy with treats are usually very sociable, like people and are generally friendly and might be said to be "naughty" at times. Their minds are generally busy and they are thinkers. Sometimes the horse will act dominant. Knowing this about their personalities is my first step to dealing with a horse like this. First off, I would not feed treats out of my hand at this point. No more of that. Second, I would work on getting the horse out of my space and to be able to stand and wait patiently. In doing this I NEVER move my feet. This shows the horse I am alpha in a very easy and simple way. I would work long-range with the horse first, getting him moving away from me with his front end, etc. I would work my way in gradually the more soft and obediant the horse became. Always rewarding the slightest tries. If I am up close and the horse starts to mouth on me I could either do body blocks, rub his nose/face REALLY FAST to make it very irritating, or back the horse up, depending on the horse's personality, dominance level and how determined they are. I've used all strategies and they all work very well.....as long as you use each strategy with the right horse. Since these horse's minds are generally very busy I would set up a lot of puzzles for him to figure out, so his brain is occupied on the task and not on trying to get a treat from me.
> 
> Once my foundation was working really well and the horse has all but stopped the behavior I can then add a treat for motivation/reward when the horse does something really nice. As soon as I give it to them we are off doing something else to keep his mind busy.




I forgot to add. I bought this horse only a few months ago off a lady who was a natural horsemanship instructor. I don't think it was Parelli that she practised, but she gave lessons etc in natural horsemanship, or her interpretation of it. Bundy is very respectful of your space, and you can move him away by directing your body at him, round penning him you can halt him by looking toward his hind, and many other things of this nature. The treat problem came about because she would go out every night and feed them carrots. 

Your thoughts on his personality are all correct, he is very friendly and social, and definitely cheeky, I wouldn’t say naughty. The only things I have had to work on since I got him were the nipping, standing still ground tied (all my horses learn this) and moving forward in hand and under saddle. 

I think part of the problem is that he is a very ‘mouthy’ horse to begin with, he will mouth anything, saddles left out, his leadrope, etc. I just make sure I don’t leave saddles or anything of value out near him, but apart from that unless he’s hurting someone I let him be, as he is just being curious. What would be your approach to the generally ‘mouthy’ horse, would you view it as a problem with a source, or just another facet of behaviour?




> For the head flipping, this is a typical trait for an arab. I can tell you I wouldn't ride with a martingale. The reason is because like I said earlier, this is convinient for the human but is not good for the horse. I'm not saying you are a bad owner, I'm just saying it's natural for us humans to look for something of that nature to fix problems. He knows when the martingale is on and he knows what would happen if he flipped his head. So he doesn't do it. When it's off he knows and will flip his head. This should tell you something. The martingale is NOT fixing your problem, it's masking it.
> 
> Without seeing the horse, being able to read him in the situations where he will flip his head, I can only offer some ideas. When horses flip their heads like that usually that is a sign of confidence and/or dominance. Does he get impulsive during exciting activities? Do you hold him back or have constant contact on his mouth? If you do then that might play a big part in this issue. If you don't, it might just be that he is excited and exhuberant and is wanting to play. Arabs can have a tendency to be that way. Also, what kind of bit are you using? Sometimes horses will toss their heads if they don't like the bit. When he does flip his head are his ears back? Does his attitude seem negative?
> 
> ...


 
His saddle has indeed been fitted numerous times, as he loses weight, loses/gains muscle etc. He has also had the chiro out numerous times, when we got him one shoulder was quite bad due to an injury when he was younger, but he is now pain free.

In regards to the bit, I use a simple eggbut bridoon. I have tried him in many bits, including a French link, and the French link vs. the single joint did not make a difference in regards to the head flipping. I don’t use a drop noseband, in fact normally I ride minus any noseband.

You are correct, the martingale masks the problem, but when other people ride him the head flipping becomes dangerous, as he can quite easily smack someone in the head, and when his head is flipped up you have no control via the bit. As he has gotten older, he has gotten a little better, and mostly I ride him without the martingale/head check (I have both) Unless I am at a big competition. 

I don’t have constant contact as he is very responsive to leg and a neck rein, plus by now he knows most of the games we do off by heart. Most of the time I have him on a loose rein, and the head flipping occurs when I take up the contact to ask him to stop. His stop is fine in most other situations, and If I stop him slowly using circles it doesn’t happen, but in mounted games you often need to stop and turn around quickly to fix a mistake. His attitude doesn’t seem to change much, I think it is more a protest about stopping, he wants to keep running!

Thanks for replying to this, I’m finding this very interesting.

P.S. I do know that it is often an Arab trait, and he does flip his head around and wave his head around in the paddock. Like I said, personally I hardly ever ride him in a martingale anymore, as I have learnt the signs when he is about to flip his head, and am able to combat it, but other people ride him who don’t know him as well. (I have had him for seven years)


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## WesternPleasure27 (Nov 9, 2008)

The main difference? 
NH'ers don't hit their horses but "traditional" trainers do...no wait that's not right.
Um...only NH'ers have true bonds with their horses...no that's wrong too.

Oh yeah, a horse can be ruined using "traditional training" and the trainer will get the bad rap, not the method, but if NH is practiced falsely and a horse is messed up, Natural Horsemanship, not the "trainer", gets the bad rap.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> but if NH is practiced falsely and a horse is messed up, Natural Horsemanship, not the "trainer", gets the bad rap.


That is very true.


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

wild_spot;213467 [COLOR=black said:


> I think part of the problem is that he is a very ‘mouthy’ horse to begin with, he will mouth anything, saddles left out, his leadrope, etc. I just make sure I don’t leave saddles or anything of value out near him, but apart from that unless he’s hurting someone I let him be, as he is just being curious. What would be your approach to the generally ‘mouthy’ horse, would you view it as a problem with a source, or just another facet of behaviour?[/COLOR]
> 
> *Horses with his kind of personality are VERY mouthy. They investigate everything with their mouths. My warmblood is mouthy, he likes to chew the lead rope, pick up things and fling them about, pull things over.....and he loves food! He also has a very busy mind, always plotting and trying to be a step ahead of me. So I always have interesting and challenging things for him to do to exercise his mind. For these kinds of horses exercise for the mind is far more important than exercise for his body. These horses NEED mental stimulation otherwise the negative behavior will be worse. I do not view mouthiness as a problem. It's just who the horse is. And if I tell him off for being who he is how can he ever trust or respect me? I have to respect who he is innately BUT channel that energy into something constructive. Teach him to pick up things for you. Put that curiosity and natural talent he is showing you to good use. Be creative. Like with my warmblood, he is getting the hang now of handing me my grooming bag. And he is also very animated with his front legs, naturally, so I took that talent and gave it a job. He's doing a beginner version of the spanish walk now and he LOVES it! Take what the horse naturally has and is giving to you and put it to good use, don't supress it. *
> 
> ...


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> *Horses with his kind of personality are VERY mouthy. They investigate everything with their mouths. My warmblood is mouthy, he likes to chew the lead rope, pick up things and fling them about, pull things over.....and he loves food! He also has a very busy mind, always plotting and trying to be a step ahead of me. So I always have interesting and challenging things for him to do to exercise his mind. For these kinds of horses exercise for the mind is far more important than exercise for his body. These horses NEED mental stimulation otherwise the negative behavior will be worse. I do not view mouthiness as a problem. It's just who the horse is. And if I tell him off for being who he is how can he ever trust or respect me? I have to respect who he is innately BUT channel that energy into something constructive. Teach him to pick up things for you. Put that curiosity and natural talent he is showing you to good use. Be creative. Like with my warmblood, he is getting the hang now of handing me my grooming bag. And he is also very animated with his front legs, naturally, so I took that talent and gave it a job. He's doing a beginner version of the spanish walk now and he LOVES it! Take what the horse naturally has and is giving to you and put it to good use, don't supress it.*


Yep, he sure does love food... he's a fatty! I don't mind his general mouthiness, just nipping, which he has now quit. I love the sound of the spanish walk/picking up tricks you are doing with your warmblood, sounds awesome :]



> *Okay, a couple things might be going on here. One, this horse has a lot of energy and he isn't able to use it. Meaning you are asking him to go slower when really he needs to move his feet. Instead of bolting, etc. his displaced behavior comes out in his head. So, if you feel frisky enough, when he gets excited take that energy and USE IT! Say, "You want to move? Me too!" Let him move out, give him something to do with that energy though. Do lots of patterns, changes of direction, etc. to get his mind. There is a difference between exhuberant and impulsive. So make sure that he is only exhuberant, not impulsive. If he is impulsive put him on a circle until he relaxes. Second, the bit might be a big cause of the head flipping. For a horse with his personality, they usually like a bit that has maximum tongue relief. Thet feel less trapped in the front end. Are you familiar with Myler bits? If not I would look into those with maximum tongue relief. Horses with this kind of personality can exhibit signs like head tossing, opening their mouths, chomping on the bit, reefing on the reins, tongue over the bit, etc. if they don't have enough tongue relief. One last thing. When you stop your horse, try this technique. Pick up contact and stop your body first. Then take one rein and lift it STRAIGHT UP, like an elevator. Do not pull back. With your other rein, have a steady yet light contact. When your horse stops release the reins. So one rein goes up, the other stays. This is called a suspension rein because it will help lift the horse's front end and put him on his butt. Also, this will feel better to the horse because you aren't pulling on him, you are lifting him. When he flips his head when you try to stop him, that is him telling you "No! I don't want to and get out of my mouth!" I say "I don't want to" because it sounds like he has a lot of energy and wants to use it. Now, if he doesn't stop, with your lifted rein you can bounce the rein up and down to create rhythmic pressure to back up your steady pressure. Don't yank or jerk, just boucne the rein a little to say "Hey, listen up." Reward the slightest try. Remember you are teaching him. I LOVE this technique, I use it on both my horses and every horse I ride. It really gets the horse soft and soon they let go of a lot of brace in their jaw because they know I'm not going to pull on them. When you pull on your horse you create instant brace and you invite a fight. This is exactly what we want to prevent.*


In regards to the lots of energy thing, he is like an energiser bunny, he is never tired. However, If he feels like he wants to use it, I usually let him. I must say, I like going fast as much as he does :] We do lots fo sporting/mounted games, so we are often going fast through patterns etc. When he gets bored with one pattern, i'll thinkof a new way to ride it, for example at the moment i'm teaching him a race we know very well, 3 mug, but inside out. It saves time in a competition, and is very different so he really has to think about it. Between competitions we trail ride for fitness, and we will often bend through trees, jump logs, and we do race a bit :] So I don't think it's misplaced energy.

When I ask him to stop, I normally keep one rein firm and pull release with the other, I never straight pull as he just goes beauty! and pulls right back, lol. If he knows we are going to stop, for examply a certain spot in a race, he stops without the head flip. I think it is more when he thinks he knows better, 'mum, were not supposed to stop here!' is when he gets the flip happening. 

I do know of myler bits, I used one on my old horse who had huge bit problems, pulling, lugging and tavelling with his mouth open. I haven't tried one on Wildey because apart from the head flip he goes evry well in his current bit, however it may be worth a try. I might have to wait till after christmas though, i'm broke and they are pricey!


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