# "How the ELD Mandate Will Impact the Horse Industry"



## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

There's been a lot of hits on this thread but I wonder how many of you (that reside in the U.S.) have actually read it. If you haven't you'd better.

The "ELD Mandate" translates to "electronic logging device" in the trucks of a whole bunch of people that shouldn't need them. If Lucas Oil has got involved, that tells me this is also going to affect the auto racing industry ---- including small time racers like my husband who might go once or twice a year but the closest track is over an hour away.

I only use my horse trailer to haul to the vet these days. Here's just one little part that might apply to me and frosts me to no end:



> Do you only haul your own horses? If not and if you collect payment, (for example splitting fuel costs) to haul a friend or client’s horse to a show, to the trainer, to the vet, or to the breeder, your truck and trailer are considered commercial vehicles.


If I thought the people in the USDA who wanted a RFID device on every horse that left its property had big brass jewels, this ELD Mandate is even worse.

*Kewl, * thanks for posting --- this might even need cross-posted up in the "Horse Talk" section so more people see it


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Soooo .... under this mandate, when I haul Dreams to a show a few times a year, because we live in the middle of nowhere I have to make very long trips. Because driving to and from the show, plus driving to and from the hotel on each day of the show, we'd run over the 8 day requirement and I'd need to get an ELD for our truck. To show Dreams in Podunk local shows in which there is absolutely zero chance for me to win enough money to recoup my losses - so obviously I'm not doing this for profit. This is such a crock!

Is this a proposed mandate or is this already fo sho a thing?

-- Kai


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

All I can say is there are going to be a lot of outraged private individuals "screaming" at their government representatives if this actually is put in place.

Personally, I _*DO*_ think it is high time those hauling and driving these behemoth truck & trailers, motorhomes & trailers are made to have a higher class of license.
That licensing comes with classroom hours that just might make you a better, more aware driver of how and what to do or don't do under times of crisis.
Be held to more demanding regulations for safety and health reasons.
Moving violation tickets...you better hope _not_ if the CDL part goes forth..
You accumulate points at near double the amount and less are needed for revoking a license and they don't "disappear" with a 3 hour course! _You earn them you own them._
Bi-yearly physical or yearly physical mandated to make sure you are healthier behind the wheel to me is _*not*_ a bad thing. 
Many _*won't *_be able to pass a legitimate DOT physical that the rules just tightened more about many things.
Making sure you have a better idea of how to handle that piece of equipment is also not a bad idea.
I hold a CDL in good-standing now so having to acquire one isn't my problem...
Just wait till those needing one find out the $$ in getting and keeping one though...not like you use it for a livelihood expense..ouch!

The other part of that though is the places that sell this kind of equipment need to be held to standards too.
Not just make a sale, but make a informed consumer going out the door with that piece of equipment.
Hold those businesses accountable that they not over-sell a unit that a truck can't safely handle...Yes, it will force some to not buy.
It will though offer better protection to the public at large that a over-loaded rig is not hurtling down the road barely in control before catastrophe happens...
Nothing though is going to change the driver behind the wheel of bad habits, sloppy driving or risk-takers who are a menace to the road...

What is not fair though is the person who_ for pleasure only_ wants to travel or go for a ride a few hours away and gets caught in these regulations...:icon_frown:
That person is paying the price for the ones who run a business under the table...
That is how and why this is happening... 
_Not right._
:runninghorse2:.....
_jmo..._


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Not a whole lot is going to change for the casual horse owner. Most of these laws have been effect but they are adding the ELD. Just like before the ELD, it depends on the officer and how harsh he wants to come down on you. 
Ag is exempt at this point as they still trying to figure out how they are going to deal with them, meaning livestock haulers.

I'm not much for regulations, however I think those who drive huge motorhomes and the extremely long and wide living quarter trailers should have an endorsement of some sort. Too many out there who shouldn't even be driving a bicycle let alone a motor home or big living quarters!

This is the work of the big companies, Swift, Englund, etc. to squash the small owner/operators, like my husband and myself.

With that said I would still encourage everyone to write to your representatives about appealing.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

People involved in all livestock are working for reasonable exemptions. It would be inhumane to have livestock (chicken, pigs, sheep, cattle, horses... potentially any animal) stuck in a trailer. And, no, one can't always stop ahead. Both very rural and very urban areas make stopping difficult.
@COWCHICK77 - It IS the work of the large corp lobbyists. But their drivers don't like it, either. Some for legitimate reasons, others because it is impossible to work the books.

I do agree with those pulling trailers and driving motor homes having additional endorsements. I am shocked at how little some know about their rigs or highway law and safety. I have my CDL and keep up on it. Yeah, some are going to scream when they have to fork out money to get theirs. Oh, well. Driving is a privilege.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

DH has a race magazine article on this ELD Mandate that was written by the owner of Lucas Oil, but he took it to work. He promised to bring it home Monday; I will read it and try to translate it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Yep.
Those big corporate companies having been using eLogs and Qualcomm for quite awhile. They hire drivers with zero experience, throw them in with a "Trainer" for a couple of weeks who know very little, pay them a few cents a mile and use the Qualcomm and eLogs to tell them when and how to run the truck, even tell them to fuel to beat the fuel taxes the best they can. Basically they aren't hiring truck drivers, they want a robot.
They have a huge amount accidents and they are competing with owner/operators with lower insurance rates and running paper logs.
They've ruined the trucking industry and it is getting worse with the ELD mandate.
All of these log book rule changes up until the ELD was due to these big companies hiring idiots who have no business behind the wheel. 
It's not the experienced drivers who take pride in what they do.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I think this does impact the livestock haulers. Guys around here are up in arms-- many have loads of cattle from Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, and the Dakotas brought in or ship cattle to the feeder lots in western Nebraska or Colorado, and they are saying with the mandate, the haulers either have to have two drivers, or they have to stop and unload their cattle overnight to 'rest' and run the risk of further stress, weight loss, and disease in someone's pens along the way or risk leaving them on the rig in the heat or cold, when it is far more beneficial for the cattle to haul straight through.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

It does impact cow haulers but at this point they are 90 days exempt.
Also year of truck, 2000 or newer requires an ELD.
An ECM is required for an ELD to work, plug into.

However it does not have much impact on the casual horse owner.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Yes, the mileage requirement alone will make a huge on me. I haul a 2 horse straight load, so not a huge trailer, but the "more than 150 miles" means that basically anywhere I want to ride (because I live in the middle of nowhere) would require an ELD. Even if I wanted to just haul Dreams to Yellowstone National Park to go for a weekend trail ride, I would need an ELD. That is ridiculous. 

-- Kai


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Kaifyre said:


> Yes, the mileage requirement alone will make a huge on me. I haul a 2 horse straight load, so not a huge trailer, but the "more than 150 miles" means that basically anywhere I want to ride (because I live in the middle of nowhere) would require an ELD. Even if I wanted to just haul Dreams to Yellowstone National Park to go for a weekend trail ride, I would need an ELD. That is ridiculous.
> 
> -- Kai



Have you been pulled over in the past and cited for hauling your horse without a CDL or paper log?


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

No, but per the article:

Have you won money competing with your horse or a client’s horse? Even though most often competing with horses is not profitable for a non-pro when calculating all the costs, the FMCSA could consider money won at a horse show or event, a profit.* They can also consider hauling to an event with the intent or hopes of winning some money, as pursuing a profit. This definition of “profit” then classifies your truck and trailer as commercial.

Dreams and I have won copious amounts of money competing at local shows - in the tens, sometimes hundreds, of dollars - a veritable fortune. We therefore qualify as a commercial vehicle. The rule further states that it is "up to the officer" to set the rules - NOT something I want to bet on. It's like not having proof of insurance in your vehicle - you can get away with it as long as you don't get pulled over, but if you get pulled over you can be royally screwed. Not my idea of a good time.

-- Kai


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Kaifyre said:


> No, but per the article:
> 
> Have you won money competing with your horse or a client’s horse? Even though most often competing with horses is not profitable for a non-pro when calculating all the costs, *the FMCSA could *consider money won at a horse show or event, a profit.* They can also consider hauling to an event with the intent or hopes of winning some money, as pursuing a profit. This definition of “profit” then classifies your truck and trailer as commercial.
> 
> ...


To the bolded, "could".
They already can cite you for it. You haven't been pulled over for it in a two horse trailer winning hundreds.
I don't think I'd be running out to get your CDL and filing for a MC# quite yet.

I'm not saying that it couldn't get to the point people seem worried about as it always starts small and builds. But it's not as bad as it seems for the casual, hobby horse owner.


If you are worried about it write your state representatives.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

I just saw a post on FB that there is a 90 day waiver on the ELD mandate, but have yet to see it pop up on any government site. If someone sees it on a government site, please post a link ...


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

@COWCHICK77, can I plagiarize your sig?

I need to say "I CAN'T ride 'em and slide 'em anymore, I HAVE to LED 'em and feed 'em" . Except I slid down river banks and power lines, not too long ago 

We're all seniors at my farm, lollol


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

You bet ^^^^ ****!!!


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Directly from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration:

https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/newsroom/fmcsa-announce-additional-eld-transition-guidance


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Here's a recent article on the impact of the ELD mandate on horse owners: Confused About the ELD Mandate? AHC Can Help!

The two referenced brochures are here: 

(1) ELECTRONIC LOGGING DEVICE MANDATE - HOW WILL IT AFFECT YOU? 

(2) COMMERCIAL DRIVERS LICENSE - HOW DO I KNOW IF I NEED ONE?


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

Yes. It's horrible. People can hack truckers and shut them down right on the road.... :/


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## tim62988 (Aug 30, 2012)

i would think for a majority of people we will be fine to continue our driving as usual.

i would bet that the DOT doesn't know who won what at the county fair and made $10. I would also have to respectfully argue that even if you won $100 at a show 40 miles from home, you spent more than $100 therefore not a "profit" just a less expensive day.

I think what will happen is DOT will stop and question people that have out of state plates but more so will stop people with a bunch of logos and decals on their trailer figuring maybe that decal is from a sponsor meaning you are semi-pro/pro 

not to say you won't get the book thrown at you if you are disrespectful to the officer or cause a major accident but I'm going to just try and make sure everything is in working order so if I'm stopped the only issue that may come up is the ELD not the ELD, lights, brakes, registration, and horse paperwork


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## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

tim62988 said:


> i would think for a majority of people we will be fine to continue our driving as usual.
> 
> i would bet that the DOT doesn't know who won what at the county fair and made $10. I would also have to respectfully argue that even if you won $100 at a show 40 miles from home, you spent more than $100 therefore not a "profit" just a less expensive day.
> 
> ...


Well spoken!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

This new mandate/law is going to be far reaching and I think may spur other changes.
Those changes have been discussed before on the forum and I will put my opinion here for whoever to see...
This is my opinion and till this new mandate is understood there is a lot of hearsay, an elaboration/speculation of "facts" that are not true.
A huge amount of space for interpretation. :|

So, I think we face more issue going through a Ag station stop than from DOT.
Yes, it could affect _a few_ horse people, some private individuals....
It is geared though to force stop and rest laws on the trucking companies and independents who drive tired. 
It will also catch those who drive with health issues. _ 
If_ they stop you, you better have that precious UTD medical card on you to produce and show as required by law of CDL holders.
Till DOT is on board across every state and territory how do they enforce it?
How do they enforce on trucks registered, plated/tagged in other countries with "foreign" drivers....???
Are they really going to go after the guy driving a small pickup truck and trailer down the road or after the large tractor trailer..._my bet is on the big rig._
My bet is they _will_ go after the commercial shipper of livestock.
_However,...._
If you get pulled over, you better have all the required paperwork in order for the horses on board, yourself and your rig. You are so correct tim62988.
Expect to face a scrutiny on everything including that your rig is properly cared for with no noticeable issues like busted lights or not working, bald tires, serious rusted hitch or you can be in for a in-depth inspection and set down roadside till issues are fixed..._costly. _
Your license, registrations and insurance better be right too...
The one thing I know you better know for certain is whether you must pull into the weigh stations or can pass them.
On this one it seems not all states follow the same rulings....know the rules of the states you haul in and through and go for the willing stops as most times private truck, with horses in a private trailer I have found you are waved through, no questions.
A Ag stop, you _will_ be stopped and your load will be checked/inspected I have also encountered but once vaccination records and coggins were produced _for each animal on board_ we were free to go with a minimal delay. 
We did _not _have to unload the horses either but they did open, look through windows and escape doors.

I personally look forward to them checking to make sure drivers are not driving tired or if stopped a vehicle check is done to make sure you are road-worthy and safe...it* is* your life and that of those around you they look to keep safer.

Now if we could just get the authorities to enforce that over certain size and weight you must go for driving classes to understand what that behemoth rig needs to be safe sharing our roads... 
And yes, if that means a certain kind of certificate or license for us horse enthusiasts...fine. 
Better it be aimed at the thousands driving massive motor homes pulling trailers....ever look at many of those trailers and realize how much is hit or run into by the dents and damages..._many of those behind that wheel should not be..._
This new mandate may just help us to be safer out there...that to me is not a bad thing with roads congested and traffic moving as fast as it does on them. :|
That is my take on the entire thing...yes, more in your business and private life_ but_ if it makes me & you safer because you must stop and rest, can't run that second or third log...so be it.
Will it hurt the independent...no worse than driving legal as they should be now I am told by a neighbor who is a independent...who he hauls loads for though is aware, will build in the extra travel time and is absorbing the costs he tells me will/must happen. 
Big business will make this work or be tossed away...$$ talks and is listened to is the way it is.
That is my take on it.... 
Till enforced and enlightened otherwise though, I will continue on as I have been traveling the roads "safe and legal".
:runninghorse2:.....
_jmo..._


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I was sent this and it fits perfectly this thread and is_ not_ complicated to understand...










I still think this will lead to more changes, some good some bad... :|


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

My boss, an attorney, and my husband (we have cattle... and we take them to the sale barn every so often) and myself were discussing this last Friday. Boss said when that was written they didn't realize how loose the language is in it. Now the impact is going to be absurd.

Also, apparently there aren't a lot of people that even know how to INSTALL an ELD on a 3/4 ton or 1 ton hauling truck. At least not in SE Oklahoma and N. Texas. Horse Haulers (Third party haulers that move event horses and rodeo stock around for actual rodeos and shows) are having trouble complying because no one has the equipment in stock. These go on semis, the say... yeah. Well. Now they go on regular pick up trucks.

DOT isn't all you have to watch for now. State Troopers and Sheriff's Deputies DO know who's hauling to what event and rumors of troopers in Texas and Louisiana already stopping people and giving them crap about this are starting to circulate.

I can kinda understand it when you begin to consider heavily trafficked areas, such as Dallas, which sees a scary amount of traffic, scary fast people driving like idiots, and then - people pulling livestock trailers that clearly have no idea what they're doing. And yet, a CDL and an ELD in no way guarantees its not a moron at the wheel. (Exhibit A - all the morons they're sticking in semi trucks these days)

Personally, I feel this is overreach on so many levels its not even funny and just a way to gouge people's pocketbooks until the lawmakers get around to amending it.

As for us, we haul our cattle about 10 miles to the sale barn. Fortunately we know all the local LEOs and DOT guys, but... will there come a time we have to watch for that one a-hole with a badge and a little man complex to be sitting a block from the sale barn? Probably. There IS an ag exemption - but again, the language is confusing and even my boss, a lifelong attorney, a municipal judge, AND a horseman/cattleman, can't even really figure out what is or is not exempted. There's a lot of contradictory legal-speak in the law and he's predicting the ish is going to hit the fan pretty quick with this and it will have to be amended due to public outrage.

We'll see.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

All I gotta say is, I'm going "trail riding" whenever my horses are in tow.

:icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes:

It's just ridiculous.

(and makes me real glad I don't have a LQ trailer or a huge pickup)


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

beau159 said:


> All I gotta say is, I'm going "trail riding" whenever my horses are in tow.
> 
> :icon_rolleyes::icon_rolleyes:
> 
> ...


Yeah, a lot of folks will be able to do that, tbh. I just figure sooner or later, if this stands, we'll see greedy DOT parking its enforcement officers just down the road from a rodeo or event arena, kinda like when they do the drunk driver stings and park a half mile from the local clubs.

But of course how do you say someone was competing for cash? Trophy saddles, tack, and saddle pads aren't cash, so you may have some classes or the top tier winner taking home cash, but everyone else gets tack or whatever.... All you gotta do is say you were just there, not competing. 

I will LIE like a rug on this one.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

This article regarding how this affects bull wagons and commercial livestock haulers (think the semis hauling chickens and pigs, etc) raises a lot of good questions - the law does not differentiate between haulers of inanimate goods (Chinese goods bound for wal mart) and a bull wagon loaded with cattle.

From the article:

"The HOS rule is part of the MAP-21, or the Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act, which became law in October 2012. It states that drivers must not drive for more than 11 consecutive hours and need to be off the road for 10. That creates a problem, however, for livestock haulers who cannot just pull off to the side of the road with a load of cattle or pigs that might die from heat exhaustion in the summer or freeze to death in winter months.

The rule’s implications, though, have been heightened now that the ELD monitors compliance with the rule and stores violations in its memory, ready to be downloaded by inspectors from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, DOT’s highway safety enforcement unit.

“DOT HOS rules do not differentiate between haulers who haul inanimate objects and those that haul living, breathing beings,” said Michael Formica, assistant vice president and legal counsel with the National Pork Producers Council. “The rule is just not practical.”


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

People may be able to lie their way out of the ELD mandate compliance, but that won't affect whether or not they'll need a CDL, which depends on the GVWRs of the truck + trailer. Some stories I've heard is that people who are stopped that don't have the correct driver's license are prevented from continuing driving their rigs. So, just make sure that the license you are driving under is sufficient for the rig you pull & where you haul.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

A guy down the road pulling a 3-horse LQ trailer was stopped in Wyoming three days ago and told he couldn't continue unless he had a CDL, which he has never had to have before as his rig used to be considered a 'recreational vehicle.' He and his wife haul from Iowa to Montana about 10 times a year as their son owns a ranch out there and they go to visit and ride. He was allowed to pull the horse trailer to the next exit and then grounded until his son could come out and drive the rig home (son has a Class A CDL for hauling cattle commercially). So there they sat for 10 hours with horses in the trailer until someone else could come drive. 

Wyoming DOT/Brand Inspectors are notoriously tough, but he's been stopped numerous times with the same rig and all paperwork was considered in order. Only difference is the new mandate. If they're going to be stopping people pulling horse trailers that used to be considered 'recreational vehicles' they'd be well-met to stop the drivers of those behemoth RV's weaving all over the road.....

If you pull with a 1-ton truck and have a LQ trailer, you should probably have a CDL now, even if you didn't need one before.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

SilverMaple said:


> If they're going to be stopping people pulling horse trailers that used to be considered 'recreational vehicles' they'd be well-met to stop the drivers of those behemoth RV's weaving all over the road.....


I totally agree with this; as do everyone else I talk to ... 

This AQHA article has info that AHC is having a webinar on 2/12 that you can register for (which I did). If you can't make the webinar, they will have it later on the AHC website.




SilverMaple said:


> If you pull with a 1-ton truck and have a LQ trailer, you should probably have a CDL now, even if you didn't need one before.


Very wise words, indeed. Even with 3/4 ton, you better check your state's (and federal if you cross state lines) requirements for those who need a CDL.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

kewpalace said:


> People may be able to lie their way out of the ELD mandate compliance, but* that won't affect whether or not they'll need a CDL, which depends on the GVWRs of the truck + trailer.* Some stories I've heard is that people who are stopped that don't have the correct driver's license are prevented from continuing driving their rigs. So, just make sure that the license you are driving under is sufficient for the rig you pull & where you haul.





SilverMaple said:


> If you pull with a 1-ton truck and have a LQ trailer, you should probably have a CDL now, even if you didn't need one before.


SilverMaple - it is my understanding that the CDL laws have NOT changed. As kewpalace said above, it has to do with the GVWR of your truck/trailer combo. If you need a CDL to legally pull it now -- chances are, you've needed one all along. 

It's the ELD portion that is "new" which is also bringing more attention to the existing CDL laws, and people are now realizing they were supposed to have a CDL.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

5 years ago we purchased a new truck (trading on our Ford Excursion) when we went to plate the truck (2012 Ford F250 Long box 4X4) we were given class B plates -in our state this is for lighter trucks. We were warned by a friend that even though the state gave us those plates that they were not the correct plates for our truck and because of this new law we need to get the Class D plates that our truck should have - otherwise we could be stopped when pulling our trailer and get cited for having the incorrect plates.

This law will be far more reaching than some realize. We haul to IA and WI frequently to trail ride - and have wondered if this is the year we will be stopped.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

carshon said:


> We were warned by a friend that even though the state gave us those plates that they were not the correct plates for our truck and because of this new law we need to get the Class D plates that our truck should have - otherwise we could be stopped when pulling our trailer and get cited for having the incorrect plates.
> 
> This law will be far more reaching than some realize. We haul to IA and WI frequently to trail ride - and have wondered if this is the year we will be stopped.


I don't quite understand the problem carshon....
Pay for the upgraded plates so you are road legal, anyplace..._ if that is actually true._
You've been slipping through for years but difference in cost is probably not as much as you think for plates. 
Insurance on the truck might actually be cheaper.

As for the CDL..
It is not that hard to get a CDL actually...
What makes them harder to get is when you add the special endorsements...
The biggest issue I see is having a yearly physical now required of all CDL holders to my understanding.
That physical is not a big deal if you are in good health, or go to your doctor to keep things like blood pressure and such in check..._just keeps you healthier._ :wink:
Healthier behind the wheel is not a bad thing when it = safer behind the wheel too.
Then you get to go where you want as you want... :smile:

CDL's do cost a bit more but not terrible when you figure it over how many years. 
My CDL is good for 8 years...
Well worth it to me to be able to go where I want with no worries...
:runninghorse2:..._
jmo..._


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

beau159 said:


> SilverMaple - it is my understanding that the CDL laws have NOT changed. As kewpalace said above, it has to do with the GVWR of your truck/trailer combo. If you need a CDL to legally pull it now -- chances are, you've needed one all along.
> 
> It's the ELD portion that is "new" which is also bringing more attention to the existing CDL laws, and people are now realizing they were supposed to have a CDL.


^^^ This!!!!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Article on the topic worth reading.

https://www.agdaily.com/livestock/o...y-the-price-in-a-new-way-because-of-old-laws/


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

SilverMaple said:


> Article on the topic worth reading.
> 
> https://www.agdaily.com/livestock/o...y-the-price-in-a-new-way-because-of-old-laws/


Great article. Thanks @SilverMaple.


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