# Liver chestnut vs Silver Bay vs ..? Not sure what color my yearling is!



## TjWr

Hello,
I just bought this yearling Spotted Saddle horse for my son about a month ago. He had TONS of worms, was pretty hairy and dirty, I assumed he was a liver chestnut tobiano with the flaxen mane, but now that he's shed out, and had numerous baths, and looking much healthier... I'm not sure! The dark spots look almost black bay, but have silver dapple areas in them. The close up of his neck is NOT wet... but see the different shades ? 

What color is he? Thanks for any input!


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## TjWr

Even if you're not sure, please post what you're thinking.. any feedback would be great.


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## CrazyHorseArtist

ok if you are thinking he has silver it would prolly be silver on black imo but he could still be liver as some chestnuts are so dark they look near black. Do you by any chance know his parents and such? It would deff help to know his pedigree and the colors there if possible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TjWr

Thanks for the response! No photos of the sire. Mom is on the left in both the photos. They are pretty much identical in color!  -- And as for the silver bay, would look like silver on black, I don't know...... I've been reading a lot on this color - basically brown with flaxen mane, - one article I read is that the "silver bay" can be impossible to tell the difference between some liver chestnuts besides the black legs - which since my yearling is a tobiano, he has white legs! LOL so that "tip" didn't help me any. I do not know if that tip is true, it was in one article I read. I wasn't able to find the article again, but here is the wikipedia article on "silver dapple gene" Silver dapple gene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The two shades on his neck - it's like that all over his body - and he's completely shed out in those areas (where his winter coat is, it's more reddish - hence why we thought he was liver chestnut ) but as he shed that out, it got dark brown (like bay) with the silvery dapples. :?

Thanks for your opinion!! I'm sure it will be next to impossible to know for sure without DNA testing, but I was curious to know what people thought of his color


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## TjWr

^^^^That is what he looked like when we picked him up from his previous owner a month ago. With the reddish brown winter hair on his hip/belly we figured liver chestnut. The pictures in the original post were taken yesterday, mostly shed out, and a lot darker!


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## TjWr

Oh, and the sire, no photos, but the previous owner just said "pretty much looks like him".... so not really much help


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## CrazyHorseArtist

The dappling on his neck could just be to good grooming. Healthy, clean horses have dapples.
Silver bay looks like a bay with flaxen, and maybe some coat fading. (Here is a nice example of a Silver Bay)

Silver on black is no different. Flaxen Mane & tale and maybe some coat fading. (The horse in the red halter is Silver Black)

If they were Silver I'd say Silver on Black. If you're really curious a silver test is only about $25usd.


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## Chiilaa

I am going to go with Silver Black. Silver Black is often commonly referred to as silver dapple, or Taffy in Australia. The dapples are part of the silver gene taking effect on the coat. If you want to compare to other horses, you get great results using Google Images, but search for Silver Dapple


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## TjWr

I hadn't even considered silver black! But yes, compared to the two photos you provided, I would say silver black is the more likely of the two. But also, as you say, Liver Chestnut is still a possibility. I probably will have him tested for Silver, since I was going to have him tested to see if he is homozygous tobiano. I was just curious to see what people thought.


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## Chiilaa

I personally don't see liver at all. The colour on his neck just doesn't say red to me.


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## TjWr

Chiilaa said:


> I personally don't see liver at all. The colour on his neck just doesn't say red to me.


^^ Chiilaa, I completely agree with you! ^^ I don't see any red tinge in his mane or coat... but I do know that if you type in "liver chestnut" google images, you'll get every shade of brown, red or no red, so who knows! But I would think a "Silver _______" fits better than Liver Chestnut


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## CrazyHorseArtist

this horse is a chestnut but as you can see he looks very black with no red tint. You can see the white bands at his cornet giving him away as chestnut though. So your horse could still be chestnut.


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## aneternalflame

I would also wonder if he is a black chestnut with flaxen.
This is a black chestnut (they're called black chestnuts when they're this dark, by the way) I personally rode a lot:



















And when he was body clipped he almost looked grullo.










The color on your boy's neck, though, makes me wonder about palomino tbh. 

http://morgancolors.com/heathermoorgoldbanner.jpg

Like that guy, but retaining a lighter mane and tail. You can see what could easily be sooty creeping into your guy's mane in the pics.

This, as a yearling, http://morgancolors.com/metigoshemariah.jpg
Became this as an adult: http://morgancolors.com/metigishemariahsideadult.jpg http://morgancolors.com/metigishemariahheadside.jpg


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## Lolamae

That close up of his neck looks almost buckskin, we have a buckskin mare in the barn and she is shedding out to that chocolatey colour. 

This colour and pattern thing is fascinating, I love it. When I was growing up horses were shades of bay, chestnut, grey, dun, piebald or skewbald etc none of this "is he a buckskin or a dun? Is he a Tobiano or a tovero?" In fact, I'd never heard of those, and as for palominos! Scarey. They were gold (as in my signature) or pale, sooty or chocolate wasn't acknowledged at all. Champagne was something that we drank not used to describe a dilute and sorrel was a type of plant.

This is what I call a liver chestnut (silver something or other, bay I presume, who cares, he isn't breeding stock) He was out of a palomino pony mare by a red and white Paint.









and today:


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## TjWr

Lolamae, that bottom photo is absolutely adorable. Thanks for sharing


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## Chiilaa

I'm sticking with silver black. The colour on the neck, with the dapples, and the silver mane, it just screams silver to me.

What colour are his eyelashes?


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## TjWr

His eyelashes are black/brown except for a small section on his right eye where his blaze touches his eye. It's really adorable. I just love this little guy


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## TjWr

aneternalflame said:


> I would also wonder if he is a black chestnut with flaxen.
> This is a black chestnut (they're called black chestnuts when they're this dark, by the way) I personally rode a lot:
> 
> And when he was body clipped he almost looked grullo.
> 
> The color on your boy's neck, though, makes me wonder about palomino tbh.
> http://morgancolors.com/heathermoorgoldbanner.jpg
> 
> Like that guy, but retaining a lighter mane and tail. You can see what could easily be sooty creeping into your guy's mane in the pics.
> 
> This, as a yearling, http://morgancolors.com/metigoshemariah.jpg
> Became this as an adult: http://morgancolors.com/metigishemariahsideadult.jpg http://morgancolors.com/metigishemariahheadside.jpg


 
aneternalflame: That horse of yours in your OP is gorgeous, I LOVE that color he looked body shaved. I just can't believe all these shades!! Hard to believe your guy is a chestnut!

I hope my guy's mane & forelock don't darken, I love this color they are now. I was watching it in the sun yesterday, and it just seems to literally sparkle. His tail is the seemingly typical tobiano: white with a chunk of black. 

I've been keeping my mom updated on all the comments (she's been right along side my trying to figure out his color since we got him) and we think its humorous we were confused between Silver Bay & Liver Chestnut and now we have Silver Black, Black Chestnut, and even a Palomino idea thrown in  I love it!! The color ranges are crazy, and I just love all the genetics to go with it. 
I probably will end up doing DNA test, I'm thinking about breeding him (before gelding for my son to ride) to my palomino mare (in my avatar) and knowing what specific color he is will help me make my decision - especially if he's homozygous for tobiano (both his parents are tobianos... figure there's a good chance )


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## TjWr

I just couldn't resist sharing this video of him with my son's bucket. They sure get a kick out of each other!


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## NdAppy

His clor is interesting. He does look like a silver dapple to me as well.

On the breeding thing... Unless he has done something fantastic and warrants having his genes passed on,I wouldn't. Color in and of itself is a truly bad reason to breed. Breeding for color and temperament without breeding for confo is also a bad reason. Geld him and love him.


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## TjWr

Thanks for the input  In your opinion, do you think he is black or bay with the silver dapple? Or were you thinking something completely different with silver dapple?

My mare I have now is the daughter of the mare I grew up with and had for 20 years and the granddaughter of my mom's first horse that she had for **30** years, and we've always had the same blood line. (pretty neat, huh?  I have two sons - they both love the tobiano patternbut not so much a trot. I want to cross this little guy with my mare to get a baby with the blood line and tobiano coloring that my sons both love  So if all he has done that is fantastic is continue being the sweet natured, brave, beautiful boy that he is that more than warrants his gene being passed on for us )) We wouldn't be doing it to stud him out. Just once then geld


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## NdAppy

Silver dapple = Silver on black. He is not a silver bay.

Just my opinion, but that still isn't a good reason to breed. Find a _good_ stallion with some sort of merit other then pretty or makes pretty babies, and that most of all has good conformation that compliments the mare if you are really determined to bred.


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## TjWr

NdAppy said:


> Silver dapple = Silver on black. He is not a silver bay.
> 
> Just my opinion, but that still isn't a good reason to breed. Find a _good_ stallion with some sort of merit other then pretty or makes pretty babies, and that most of all has good conformation that compliments the mare if you are really determined to bred.


Thanks for replying


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## CheyAut

The OP horse is without a doubt silver black.

Lolamae, yours is silver bay (actually probably silver brown). Again, without a doubt.


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## TjWr

CheyAut said:


> The OP horse is without a doubt silver black.
> 
> Lolamae, yours is silver bay (actually probably silver brown). Again, without a doubt.


 
CheyAut,
Thanks for looking! What makes it without a doubt? I was told a Black with a Cream modifier could do the same thing as a Black with Silver modifier..... Is there something you see that I'm missing that makes him a definite Silver black? Thanks!


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## aneternalflame

Well a smoky black (cream + black horse) won't have the lighter mane and tail unless there are other genes at play.. cream on a black or brown base often has little effect on the base.. a smoky black often looks very similar to a sun faded black. So your guy would be a silver black, not a smoky black. Totally different effects. You can see some info and photos on smoky blacks here: Morgan Colors- Smoky Black Morgan Horses


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## Chiilaa

Black with cream doesn't have the silver mane and tail, or the silver dapples. 

This mare is smoky black, which is black with a single cream gene. Note for those playing at home, yes, this mare has been tested. She was tested after she produced a BUCKSKIN shire filly lol.









This girl is a smoky cream, also confirmed by testing. Smoky cream is a black horse with two copies of the cream gene, so the black version of a double dilute.









This is a silver black horse. Can you see the difference? I know this guy is also pinto, but his mane and tail would be that colour regardless


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## aneternalflame

Though do remember that gypsies and ponies/minis have more of the dappled coat effect than other breeds, lol!

For example this is a brown silver dapple Morgan










and the one on the left is a black silver dapple (the light manes/tails often darken with age..)


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## Chiilaa

Yeah there were plenty of pics of minis with exact colour as the OP's horse. I think the OP's horse is unusual in the fact that not many big horses express silver to that degree.


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## TjWr

And liver chestnut is ruled out as well? Thank you all so much for your help & input!


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## Chiilaa

Oh yeah, definitely not chestnut. There is no doubt whatever in my mind, your boy is silver black.

If you want, you can test for silver just to make sure


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## StormvaleQHStud

Hey chiilaa is it poss to post the pic of the smoky black again it did not come up on me phone all the rest did and I am very curious to see what e tested smoky black looks like as that is a color possibility out of my grulla mare and pally boy. Shanks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa

StormvaleQHStud said:


> Hey chiilaa is it poss to post the pic of the smoky black again it did not come up on me phone all the rest did and I am very curious to see what e tested smoky black looks like as that is a color possibility out of my grulla mare and pally boy. Shanks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The only way to definitely tell a horse is smoky black is to test. While some horses display it, others just appear to be a fading black, or even just black.


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## StormvaleQHStud

Thanks Chiilaa. Yep I get all my horses tested so her foals will get tested too the ones I keep haha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dusty and Olivia

My horse stardust ( Dusty ) is a light grey white colour and it doesn't matter if he was bay or black or buksin or even pinto, he will still be my favourite horse in the world


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