# No more good trail horse?



## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

Hi guys, I haven't been on here in forever, but I have a little sneaking suspicion that I'd like help with.
So here goes, I had a pony for 9 years, 3 of which I also had my horse, Dozer. When the pony passed away he was at the equine hospital. The last time Doz saw him, he was being walked down our driveway towards a trailer at 9:30 at night.
At first, he didn't act any differently. I took him out on a ride alone and he did fine. I trailered him down to the equestrian center to bathe him and he did fine.
About two weeks later, I decided to take him out for a super early (6AM- to avoid the mid-June California heat) and he changed. He spooked at everything and continuous tried to run home with me. I got him to the top of the hill (I was meeting my friend at the bottom) and then he lost it. He tried to run right off the side of the hill multiple times. I broke down, cried, and called my dad to have him trailer us home because I didn't trust Dozer to safely be lead or ridden home. 
Maybe it was just because he had never been out that early? So I took him out on the street (In hand tis time) to check. He was still absolutely horrible. I walked him around the street for about half an hour and he calmed down a little bit, but there was no major light bulb "a ha!" moment where he went back to normal. 
He continued on like this all summer. So I lost interest for a while. I'd meet friends and we'd have to go back to my house because Dozer couldn't handle himself. I ended up just riding other people's horses. They were less hassle. 
He was still really well behaved in our arena, so I rode him in there every so often. But not too much. 
About three weeks ago, my cousin and I decided to ride him and my dad's horse(Very green broke draft- never been ridden out of the yard) on a ride down the street to a development. Dozer only spooked twice! It was awesome! He was back to himself. Looking back, it was very dumb for us to go out. My cousin was riding n my new treeless saddle(with our only cinch) so I was riding Doz in just a bareback pad and neither of us were wearing helmets.
Anyways, since it went so well, we decided to go out again on Monday. On Monday, Doz had apparently remembered that he was supposed to be a dumb horse on trails, so he reverted back to that. Awesome, huh?

Okay, so the morale of the story is, I always rode him out in my(or my dad's) treeless saddle while going out and he was always bad. However, the one time I rode bareback, he was good. Could this mean his back is hurting him or he is being bad because he is somehow in pain? He doesn't roll excessively or anything as if he is trying to correct his back alignment but it could be something, right?
Or is this just his mental breakdown?

I'd really like to get him back to normal so that when I go away to college next year, he will still be ridden on a somewhat regular basis.

Okay, I'm done. Thanks for reading! Here's a pic of the big doof


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

It could, potentially, be pain. Or a breakdown. Is he good every time you go bareback?


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## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

I haven't taken him out bareback since we lost the pony except for that one time. I'm thinking about testing it out though... I have a good seat (from riding a half blind, bucking appy for a year and half) and I'd wear a helmet. So why not?
He has some sores on his back. Not open sores but little patches where the fur is missing and theres a scab (I think caused by my dad's horse). He gets them every so often but its nothing new. I used to ride him in a saddle with those and he was fine.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Have you ever been riding with other horses when he's "bad"? Not riding to meet other horses, literally riding with another horse like you were with your cousin...?

I'm inclined to think confidence issues stemming from lack of confidence in you as the herd leader (possibly with a side of back pain). 

My Lacey girl gets the same way. When I don't take the time to be a benevolent leader with her and just kind of let her do her thing instead (a sin I am guilty of as we speak), she gets all kinds of naughty when I ask her to do things on her own. Really, it's only because she's worried that I'm going to let her down when the going gets tough since I haven't been showing her that I am a capable leader. So she tries to take over but she knows that she's not a good leader either = shenanigans. 
All it takes is me stepping up and laying down the rules - I choose when she eats (I put down her grain bucket but she doesn't get to eat until I say so), I "lead her from behind" (basically herding her) and she's required to go where I tell her to, she doesn't get to run away from me when I let her go in the pasture until I've said "ok", etc. For her, it's really the little things that matter. She doesn't need me bullying her around, she just needs reliable guidelines. 
Of course, that does not mean she's perfect after I consistently do those things but instead of having a long drawn-out fight, it's a little "but I don't wanna! Oh, but you say I have to? Welllll, okaaaaay, if you say so" 'fight'.


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## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

Monday's ride was with my cousin riding my dad's horse again. So he was bad walking out with a horse. I don't really think its a confidence thing with him. When we are in the arena, I tell him to do something on the rail, and he does it. I feel like lunging him, he gets lunged. I want him to jump a single barrel laying on its side in the middle of the arena, he jumps it. If he didn't want to listen to me, he didn't have to. He knows he can overpower me (Especially when I try to worm him! [But I make him little treat/wormer sandwiches now so that isn't an issue]) but he chooses not to. 
I think a lot of his issues outside stem from the fact that before I got him (about 3.5-4 years ago) he was allowed to eat while out as long as he remained walking and I don't allow him to. That's about the extent of my "I'm in charge while out on trail attitude". I mostly just keep a hand on the reins, keep the reins rested on his neck, and chat with whoever is accompanying me or listen to my music. I'm very relaxed out on trail, and he used to be too. And he was that first ride out with my cousin. But all the other times between the death and now, he hasn't been.


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## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

Anyone else?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If your horse is not absolutely dead broke, you sure shouldn't be going out bareback without a helmet. 

There are not many horses that can be put out in the pasture and remain great trail horses. You can't expect that of him.

If you are serious about using this horse, you need to be sure that his saddle, bridle, saddle pads, etc. are all perfectly fitted to him. Then you need to ride him several times a week, preferably daily. I would start in the arena. Then I would go on trails with another horse that is well mannered. If you only ride once every few months, you will never make any progress.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

Classic case of barn sour, buddy sour.

If you can not get him over it, either find some one(a trainer) that can, or get rid of this horse before you get hurt . These horses are dangerous. He might just decide to run in front of a car or truck or buck you to the moon and back.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

Celeste said:


> There are not many horses that can be put out in the pasture and remain great trail horses. You can't expect that of him.


Not True. Practically all well trained horses can be in the pasture for months or even years and still be well trained. That is the mark of a truly well trained horse. A horse can not be a "great trail horse" if it is not well trained, impossible.

I have horses that have not been ridden in years, and, other than being out of shape, will be just fine the next time they are ridden. Do it all of the time.

BUT, they have to be well trained, not buck'em out, ride a few months and call them broke. "Broke" and "Trained" are completely different.


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## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

Okay, maybe the way I phrased it was weird. 
This horse has been a very trusted trail mount in the past. I've taken him out bareback, saddled, work prior to leaving the yard, and right out of his stall. However, ever since Bart's death, he hasn't been good. 
The saddle I use on him is treeless with a buildup pad, the fitting has been checked and its fine. The backup saddle is an Aussie saddle with a custom buildup pad to make it fit him properly. 
This behavior isn't stemming from him not being ridden and taken out daily, I was doing that when the problem first came about and it didn't make him act any better. 
I trust him around traffic. He use to be a solid horse that would let me ride him through the del taco drivethrew. Though his calmness has vanished on the street, his survival skills have not. He will not be running into traffic. And anyways, the street I ride him on has very little traffic and its residential so no one is going fast enough to be unable to stop anyhow.
I know I sound awfully defensive right now and I know that you guys were just trying to be helpful and provide me with the advice I asked for, so thank you but I don't believe those are the causes for his changes. Although the buddy sour idea may be somewhat of a cause, I think he has come to terms with the idea that his pony friend is gone and that he is stuck with my dads horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

bbsmfg3 said:


> Not True. Practically all well trained horses can be in the pasture for months or even years and still be well trained. That is the mark of a truly well trained horse. A horse can not be a "great trail horse" if it is not well trained, impossible.


Perhaps I should restate my thoughts. Most horses are not well trained. That may sound extreme, but I suspect that it is true.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

Just to throw my 2 cents in there, it sounds to me like there was something wrong on the day he acted up. You said that is not normal behavior for him and that now, "he's back to normal". You said he sometimes gets sores on his back, and looking at the pictures, it appears he has some years on him. He looks a little thin, and it sounds like you haven't been riding him much, so he's probably not well muscled right now. I suspect he had sore spot, or maybe there was a burr or twig under the saddle pad that irritated his back, or maybe something caught in the cincha. Or, maybe he just decided to get ornery on that particular day. It happens occasionally, and if you're not confident enough to put a stop to it, he's going to get the better of you.

There is no fitting with a bareback saddle or a treeless saddle, so that's not the issue. If a horse has a sore back, riding bareback can further irritate it, so that might be something, especially if there is an open sore on his back. I'd stick with the Aussie saddle you mentioned for a while, and a good wool felt pad.

As far as pasturing a horse, I have to disagree with Celeste as well. I pasture my horses. In other words, there is no stall. I ride at most two or three times per week. Pastured horses tend to be mentally healthier and stay in better condition than stalled horses (when not ridden regularly). There may be some truth to the idea that a well-trained horse, ie for the show ring, may stay better trained when stalled, but your average trail horse is not in that category. 

My dad has always pastured his horses. He might ride them once or twice a month, and maybe not at all through a whole winter (he lives at 7,000' elevation). They are rough stock, not what you'd call "well-trained" horses. Still, they don't act like idiots when we get on them for a long trail ride. 

I had a horse in New Mexico that was always pastured, and never even supplemented on feed, just grass year round. Because of my work, I rode him at most three or four times a year. No, he was not well-trained, but a better trail horse would be hard to find. He was a mustang and was the easiest-keeping horse I ever had. He could live in a junk yard and never get a scratch. The only problem I ever had with him on the trail, was that whenever he was heading east he thought he was going away from home and would walk slow. When he was headed west, he thought he was heading home and would put up a great walking stride. Didn't matter where he was, just which direction he was headed. Funny thing. The only thing I can attribute it to is that maybe he grew up on the Navajo reservation range west of Farmington, NM. Who knows?

I just took the horse I have now (see avatar) out for a short ride this afternoon after not riding her for about 2 months. She is always pastured. For the first mile or so, she acted like she had forgotten everything I have taught her up to now, shying at things, looking back toward home, walking slow, being a knot-head in general. It took about a half hour to convince her that I was back and wasn't going to put up with that stuff. We had a nice ride and actually did a bit of training after that. She's a green 7 year-old I've been working on.

I take some issue also with bbsmfg3's assertion that if a horse is not well-trained it cannot be a "great trail horse". A good trail horse is simply one that will do _what_ you ask of it _when_ you ask it to do it. They don't have to know how to do pirouettes or sliding stops, or jump 4' fences, or dance the two-step. They need to know how to walk through creeks, up and down slopes, cross logs, get along with other horses and dogs, remain calm when problems occur, and generally watch what they're doing with their feet, and to do all that without hesitation. Anything further than that is a bonus in most trail horses. Now don't get me wrong, here. There are plenty of folks who have very well-trained trail horses. I'm working on one myself, but most folks who ride trails out there have no need of what most folks call "a well-trained horse". They just need a calm and obedient one, which is my definition of "well-broke", and that is what makes "a great trail horse" in my book.

Icrazyaboutu, what your horse needs, most likely, is more riding. Make sure he's getting the nutrition he needs and that your dad's horse isn't pushing him off his feed. You might even think about having a vet take a look at his teeth. Might need floating (nothing to do with his behavior, but he looks a bit thin).

Sorry so long. Got to typing and just kept going.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I seem to have problems communicating. Pasturing a horse is good. I did not mean pasturing as opposed to stalling. I meant pasturing as opposed to riding. Thenrie, I suspect we are on the same page. Riding the horse on a regular basis should solve his problems unless he has some sort of pain issue.

I keep my horses in the pasture as much as possible except when I am riding them.


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## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

Dozer is 9 years old, not old and not thin. I can garuntee that. I don't think I said he was back to normal. But let me try to rephrase what I ment.
After the pony died, Dozer(who was a reliable trail horse) turned into a spooky high strung mess whenever I took him out of the yard. He remained perfect in the arena. About a month ago (6 months since the pony had left) I took him out on a ride with my cousin on my dad's horse. Dozer only spooked a few times and I thought he might be going back to how he was. However, the next week when THE SAME HORSE AND RIDER went out with us, he was back to constantly jigging. He has had the little scabs on his back for years and those normally don't upset him but I figured the scabs or the saddle(since I was bareback the first ride-the good ride- and not the second ride) could be what is setting him off. 
He has never been a horse that needs to be ridden often to behave well. He is turned out with my dad's horse daily(he is the alpha so the other horse is NOT chasing him off his food) and he gets ridden once or twice a week in the arena. His teeth were floated a ittle less than a year ago and everything looks good.


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## Cheystar (Jan 2, 2013)

Hi there! I'm new here, but I've had some issues in the past 
that are similar to your experience with Dozer, maybe it can help you.

All I feel is going on here, is Dozer is completely testing you, and winning from what you've said. Sure, he could be 
missing his pony friend, but you need to work this out of him so he's safe again. When he acted up on 
the hill the first time, and you finally broke down and had your father come and pick you up, Dozer won. Now he 
has found a way to get out of working. Most horses would love to never do any chores - what a life, huh? 

When he begins to get spooky, you need to work him right there. 
Circle him in a trot if you have the room, until he begins to calm. Every 
single time he does it, you need to react positively and calmly. You 
need to take control of his actions and show him. It may take some 
doing, because of that very first time that he won the battle on the hill. Believe me, these guys remember. 

I had a quarter horse years ago that I boarded, and the owner 
before me was a weekend warrior city police officer that could 
not ride, and when the horse reared, he got scared and got off 
and put him away. Yeah, then I got him. Took me FOREVER to 
show him that I wasn't giving up. It took me awhile, but I did 
manage to semi-cure him of it, but it was always right under the surface. 

So it may take awhile, but with some work on both your parts, 
you may be able to get him back to being safe. I don't think he 
looks thin in the picture with the pony at all, he just looks like a 
narrow chested horse. The first picture his hips are not quite as 
rounded, but he does not look malnourished to me. :wink:

Good luck with him.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Since you said he would ride nicely for you in your arena, why don't you approach it this way:

Ride him for an hour or more in your arena. Do a lot of joogging and loping and make it a good workout.

Then, when he is riding quietly and not 'on the muscle', take him out for a trail ride. If you think a horse might give you trouble in a certain place or doing a certain thing, work that horse hard BEFORE attempting that difficult task and never go into it with a 'fresh' horse.

This is the sensible way to approach anything new or anything that has been difficult in the past. It is just simply 'riding with your head'.

Try it and let us know how it works.


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## tim62988 (Aug 30, 2012)

I would try bareback or a different saddle.

before I bought my horse the trainer had a couple other people ride her and the one lady loves her treeless saddle, so they threw it on my mare and apparantly she was a bit grouchy. switched saddles part way through and she went back to her usual fun/interesting self

also just push through...


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## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

Cherie said:


> Since you said he would ride nicely for you in your arena, why don't you approach it this way:
> 
> Ride him for an hour or more in your arena. Do a lot of joogging and loping and make it a good workout.
> 
> ...


I think that might help. The day I rode him bareback out, I had been riding him for a while before. The the time with the saddle (his first freak out day that starrted all of this as well as the second time out with my cousin) I just hopped on and rode out.
It's just really odd because I used to be able to just hop on and go.


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## peppersgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

The arab mare I had for years is not what I would considered well trained.. she would go forward and turn left and right..I could barely ever get her to back up (at that time I thought this was just how horses were trained)...And forget about yeilding to pressure..

She was (still is- for my older lady friend) the best trail horse I have had.. I could let her sit for a year and she would be the same as the day you put her away. 

My now heart horse is a professionally trained cutting horse who has spent the majority of her life with trainers.. when I ride her consistantly at least once a week, she leaves very little to be desired in the way of trail riding (except small water crossings..she loves to superman catapult over small creeks.. and she is too much of a princess to walk through mud- wide creeks..no prob)...If I let her sit for say a month, the first one or two rides she is a ding bat.. she has to spook at EVERYTHING... after she gets it out of her system, she is a great horse..

So with that I have to say I think It comes down to a horses personality on wether or not they can sit..


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## Icrazyaboutu (Jul 17, 2009)

At his old home, he use to sit in his stall for about 2 months with no riding, then be taken out on a weekend camping trip. Then again, his 'training' was less than desirable... (I've had people approach me and him and tell me they will never go on a trail ride with him again because he's old owners use to allow all kinds of horrible trail manners)
I've ridden him three days in a row and today was his best day for sure. I plan on taking him out tomorrow with my friend riding my dad's horse. I'l let you guys know how it goes!


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

To me it almost sounds like a security thing.He felt secure riding out with his buddy. With his Buddy gone he has lost his leader/security:-( This is what you have to work on you have to be his leader.The other horse may have helped at first initially, as he thought he had a riding buddy but he soon discovered said riding buddy is green not a leader either:-( 
From the pic of him one may suspect him maybe having some saddle fitting issues {looks narrow chested & poorly muscled over topline}. Pain may be an issue but i'm not convinced of that, because he seems to work with little issues in arena.
Agree that he is not as well trained as you may have believed him to be:-(.IMO A well broke horse can be left for months & taken out .They perform what you ask of them, don't need much refreshing. I took My one mare out of pasture today in fact, after not have been riding for over 6 mths:shock:.I asked her to play pony horse to a youngster,something she is not use to. Said youngster was full of herself so we had our jobs cut out for us:lol:.My mare kept calm did what I asked of her,I could focus on the schooling the youngster & not worry much about my control over my riding mare,she knew what I wanted from her. Incidently this mare Is my retired Halter mare {ones people say don't ride:lol:}


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## Paintlover1965 (May 22, 2009)

I also agree with Cherie as I have a very sweet but very strong Paint horse who has a very high flight instinct. He has been well frightened by many things in the past including vicious dogs, deer, partridge etc... I have found that his boundless energy can never be quelled but by working in the ring has taught him to better listen to me and burn off some nervous energy. We have achieved a better bond by doing this on a regular basis. We ride about 5 times a week or more. He is now a much better horse but, by no means perfect but I now know how to better manage him, how to calm him. I have found my trainer helpful as well. Don't ever work beyond your measure of safety but don't give up either. Working through issues can be very satisfying for you both as you will gain knowledge and your horse will better respect you as his leader. Best of luck!


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## BarrelBunny (Jan 15, 2012)

I, too, think that he is testing you. However, I think that the first day he started acting up, it could have been because his buddy wasn't there (that is if Bart always went on the trail with you - aka his confidence booster) or it could have been him just being silly. I don't really think it's him being buddy sour (at least not now) because he acted that way with your dad's horse the second time, maybe barn sour, but I would expect him to act more along the lines of turning back home, not wanting to move, etc. Anyhoo, when he got away with it - you calling your dad to pick both of you up - he learned that he, in fact, did NOT have to work if he scared you enough. (I mean, come on! What a life that would be: eating, sleeping, and more eating! :lol I do not think the saddle or the sores had anything to do with it. Yes, the sores probably agitated him, but, you already stated that you have ridden him with sores before and he was fine. If it is a treeless saddle, then I doubt that was the issue. Beside that, you said that you rode him in the arena (I am assuming in that exact saddle) and he was fine.

This is after all pain is ruled out: I agree, you should ride him in the arena first and take excess energy away. Make sure he is listening, etc. Then, you should take him on a trail. When he starts acting up, give him something to think about. Move his feet: circles, bending exercises, really anything that gets his brain working. If you feel more comfortable, then do groundwork. Really make sure that his feet are moving, though! When he calms down, keep going as if nothing happened. Keep your body relaxed, and eventually he will relax as well. 

I hoped this helped!  & I am _*no*_ expert (at all!!), this is just what I think.


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