# Horse pulls back when being shod



## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Put a twitch on his nose. The lip is squeezed until it's numb and what happens is it releases a large amount of endorphins so the horse becomes "stoned". He'll stand quietly with a twitch. Vets use this technique sometimes for a fairly quick procedure rather than a tranq.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I know. I thought of that but he already has issues with his muzzle and ears being touched that we've been slowly over coming. I'm afraid if I do that it'll be back to square 1
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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Does he have to hot shoe him?


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

It's not a great answer, but my vet mentioned a sublingual tranquilizer when we were discussing something else. Maybe give him something, even just a tube of quiet-ex, to make it a less traumatic experience? Also, is he maybe in pain? My mare drug the farrier all over to get her shoes after she foundered. Getting them nailed on was really painful for her, so she was ugly about it. My farrier was thankfully very patient and she got better about it as she felt better. Honestly, it would have been better for all of us if I'd had a tranquilizer of some description. I wouldn't want to do that long term, so hopefully he'd get more used to the shoeing.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

He will do it regardless of a hot shoe or cold shoe. And he was just diagnosed with navicular so he is in some pain. We are currently treating it.
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## LouieThePalomino (Dec 15, 2012)

Setting back is a real irritating issue, you should tie with a sturdy rope halter that goes around a sturdy hitch so that if he pulls he cant get free. Or you can use a first form war bridle and hold him with that.
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

He also has a diagnosed 1-2 degree rotation of the coffinbone, as you wrote in another thread, and is currently lame. That means he at least, HAD laminitis at one point, and most probably has a flare- up. 
His hoof is inflamed. Or was inflamed not too long ago. And he has been shod with that inflammation in his feet. Hammering an inflamed hoof hurts. Bad. So he associates the heating and shaping the shoe with the pain to come. 
HE IS NOT BEING AN A$$ OR STUBBORN OR ARROGANT. 

Have you ever had something embedded under your nail? It hurts, doesn't it? Now imagine you had to carry your own weight on that hurting fingernail. And somebody would drive nails in it. 
So maybe a little reassurance and a bag full of carrot pieces is in order. Not a twitch or the like..


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Double post. Oops.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Is there any way you can put a folded up dish towel or something under the hoof he'll be standing on? It's pain from the reverberation of hammering(as the actual hammering of the nails in doesn't hurt them) and from having to put A LOT of weight on a lame foot at the same time. Try and give the poor guy a break as much as possible. I know it must hurt for him, so try and take it slow. Him jerking his foot away and pacing around is telling you he's had enough. It takes a patient farrier so I hope yours is. But at the same time, pain is no reason for disrespect.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I've never punished him for it I talk to him and try to reassure him. I under stand it has hurt or does hurt and he probably associates it. But he's been known to be a pretty big *** before just to get out of things.
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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

If a horse is well-mannered other times and only does something like this for shoeing, then your farrier is hurting him or he is really spoiled. Is he as bad on his hinds? Front feet get a lot more tender.

Some horses with tender feet or un-sound feet find 'burning in a hot shoe' to be very painful. You have to leave a little more foot on them.

I hope your farrier is not and 'old fashioned' one that still 'soles out' horses. That would make the problem doubly difficult on this horse.

Bute him before you shoe him. That should make a huge difference if it is a pain issue. Then, do not tie him. Turn him around a hold him with his butt to the tie rail. This is how we shoe all young horses the first time (and trim, too). Horses naturally want to back up when their front feet are handled and want to go forward when their hinds are first handled.

If this horse still does not stand (and he may not now just because it is a habit to fight the farrier on his front feet), I would NOT use a twitch. I would use a lip chain and use a tiny jerk and an "Ah!" every time he jerks. I would take all pressure off of the lip chain when he was stands good. It usually only take one or two schooling lessons while being shod to be good from then on.


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

The towel is a good idea, but may not be enough. We used really thick styrofoam under my mare's standing leg, but that didn't help enough. Hammering in the nails just really, really hurt. If I could go back in time, I would never have put shoes on knowing what I do now. I would at least have sedated her. At least my farrier was patient and he understood that she was in pain. I would suggest that you not shoe this horse, but you appear to want to treat him conventionally, and while I disagree, he is your horse. I'm of the opinion that conventional treatments are more of a bandaid, and don't do a heck of a lot to fix the problem, but I'm going to shut up about it now. Styrofoam or a towel under the standing leg, some extra bute, maybe a sedative, and the most patient farrier you can find are all I can think of.  Maybe put him in cross ties (with a safety release!!) and groom him and give him treats so that he is reassured. It's just going to suck for a while until he feels better.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

Cowgirls Boots said:


> I've never punished him for it I talk to him and try to reassure him. I under stand it has hurt or does hurt and he probably associates it. But he's been known to be a pretty big *** before just to get out of things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know you don't, my post was in reference to people who said to scold him/twitch him. While you may need to do that in the future, it's not the first thing I would jump to. Cheri has some great advice, like always.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

From your original post I got the impression that the horse was just a bit spoiled and I was going to tell you that the time to correct this was before the farrier gets there. But...

Finding out that the horse has navicular and subsequent pain is a whole 'nother story. 

I am very slow to medicate horses, but this is a case where it is definitely indicated.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I've been saying what I did because I've been there. I ended up cutting 2 lbs of carrots up in thumb- sized pieced and for every hit with the hammer I shoved a piece of carrot in my mare's mouth. She caught on quickly and almost took my finger a couple of times, being desperate for the pacifier......I have decided, right then and there, that I would NEVER shoe a laminitic horse again, go the longer, barefoot way. Not for any disease inside the hoof, for that matter.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

He was buted for the farrier last time he came out..which was a week ago. The vet is having me give him bute 2x aday and now I'm down to just once in the morning. So he was buted that day and I do believe I fed him right before the farrier came which means he also had bute then. 

I do believe he's just being an *** because he expects it to be really painful. Regarding the hot shoes- he's just freaked out by the sizzling noise. This horse has certain things that just set him off and this is one of them. And I know he's had shoes on plenty of times so not like its anything new..

He's fine for his backs to be done. And like I said earlier, I could barely touch his mouth at all when I first got him and I still can't do it now sometimes so any twitching or the like is going to be a no-go. I could try some calming paste but I'm looking for a more permanent fix.
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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

That pretty much confirms what I said...only his fronts....one or more of the previous shoeings hurt. 
Pick up a front foot and knock the shoe with a hoofpick. If he pulls back, there's your answer. Start working on that. Knock, shove in piece of carrot/ treat....do that consistently and you'll retrain him eventually. A little compassion goes a long way...even if a horse is not really of use anymore.......


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I do knock on his foot with the hoof pick actually. Lol. I've been doing that and he doesn't care at all about that
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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

He very simply has been burned in too deep at one time on sore feet and it hurt -- a lot. Now, he anticipates the pain and is determined to not let it happen again. When it does not happen, he thinks his fit is what prevented it. He has the wrong 'cause and effect' or actually the wrong 'pressure and release' thing going in his head.

It is no different than a horse that does not like shots because they hurt. So, he sees the needle coming and throws a fit and avoids the shot or avoids it for a while. He is convinced it is going to hurt so he act accordingly.

You have to break the cycle. My way to do that is with a lip chain. I can make moving around or backing up or throwing a fit hurt instead and make standing still be rewarded with a lack of pressure on the lip chain. It works for shots, too. 

I would also just go back to cold shoeing. Hot showing is good in a lot of ways, but a good farrier that can get a foot level and keep a shoe level can shoe one just as well. Some 'hot shoers' get really sloppy with their hoof preparation because they know the hot shoe will burn the fit in perfectly. This is true but not necessary.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

My farrier dips the shoe in a bucket of water before he puts it on my gelding. Or he will let it get colder and it will just sizzle alittle. I don't know if he's been cold or hot for a majority of his life but when I've had him its always been a hot shoe.
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## Wolfetrap (Jan 7, 2013)

If he's having another laminitis issue your farrier should be telling you! Is he really lame? I would give him a mild tranq. (or twitch or to take the edge off as long as it's not a physical/pain issue. If it is then your farrier should be doing different shoeing for his laminitis or other lameness issues. KEEP US POSTED!!


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

He has navicular as stated earlier. We just started putting corrective shoes on. No he's not very badly lame but according to what my vet told my farrier his navicular is pretty bad. 

And he doesn't fly backwards. He just leans back and ends up almost loosing his balance so he pulls his foot back. He doesn't act panicked and freak out and start tearing backwards. 
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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Cowgirls Boots said:


> He has navicular as stated earlier. We just started putting corrective shoes on. No he's not very badly lame but according to what my vet told my farrier his navicular is pretty bad.
> 
> And he doesn't fly backwards. He just leans back and ends up almost loosing his balance so he pulls his foot back. He doesn't act panicked and freak out and start tearing backwards.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Several of the horses at our rescue did tbis with our old farrier. The horses are all old with some form of lameness issue each, which is why they are here. The farrier didn't let them take breaks and it hurt them to stand 3 legged for as long as he needed. They would just lean back, like they were going to sit down, with their hind legs tucked all underneath themselves. 
This isnt disobedience this is the horse trying to find a way to stand on just the legs that dont hurt as much. 
Our new farrier rotates she does a bit on one foot and when the horse starts to get tired or fidgetty she'll move to the next. She'll circle the horse several times until their feet are done. Of course with shoeing it's harder to do that. Have you looked in to corrective shoeing with glue on shoes or boots instead of nail on shoes? A friend of mine had fantastic results with Epona shoes for her navicular belgian.


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## Wolfetrap (Jan 7, 2013)

Does he or has he had laminits/founder? Did I read that wrong in a previous post? That behavior is pretty classic of horse who have laminitis. Does he do worse on one front foot vs the other?


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Wolfetrap said:


> Does he or has he had laminits/founder? Did I read that wrong in a previous post? That behavior is pretty classic of horse who have laminitis. Does he do worse on one front foot vs the other?


He has been lame previously according to my farrier who said he has a "stretched white line". He has 1-2 degrees of rotation In his left front. The farrier and vet both don't think it was ever founder but more so trauma to the hoof of some sort when he was younger maybe. He seems to do the same on both fronts but I know that the LF is the worst of the two because of rotation AND navicular.
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## Wolfetrap (Jan 7, 2013)

HHMmmmm...I wonder what trauma would make the coffin bone rotate like that? I would assume that most all rotation comes from the laminae being inflammed and not "supporting" the bone, which is why the bone can move within the hoof...I'm going to ask my boyfriend his opinion about that and the stretched white line (he's a farrier).


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Stretched white line + rotation( diagnosed) =laminitis/ founder. 
Then add navicular. 
But...he's being an a$$........:-(


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

The vet said to me she cannot 100% say he foundered and my farrier said he doesn't have feet like look like a foundered horses does and he doubts he did ever. Who knows what happend. This horse has been through h*ll and back multiple times.
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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Stretched white line + rotation( diagnosed) =laminitis/ founder.
> Then add navicular.
> But...he's being an a$$........:-(


Okay maybe your right he isn't being an *** but still I've never punished him for it. Regardless of weather he's being an *** or not I'm still looking for ways to fix it. He use to not even let me pick up his feet when I got him. He would plant them and my farrier is patient. He told me he's surprised my guy even stood at all last time for shoes and atleast behaved (semi) decent.
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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Agreed with Cherie. My little Amish farrier doesn't put himself in an danger when a client with such a horse wants his horse shod. I got to watch him shoe 2 such Belgians once. He has a set of wooden stocks made from 4 x 4's and complete with chains run through pieces of water hosing. The horse is tied with a chain in front, a chain in back, a chain above his neck and each hoof can be pulled up with a leather hobble piece attached to a pulley system and he has a padded wooden rest for each hoof. He can pretty much immobilize the horse and safely work on any hoof without any injury. I take it as a compliment to my training that he will hot shoe ALL of much horses without this contraption.
*Even IF your horse has a fear you are putting your farrier and yourself in danger until you deal with this and retrain your horse. * I helped a farrier that we hired for a few years for reshoeing when we were in the Black Hills, SD. She convinced me that I could also do the job at home, if I wanted to learn. In the process I got a permanent scar on my hand from the nail. Be warned.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Which is why I'm asking for suggestions to fix this. He doesn't fly backwards In a crazy tangent. He just shifts his weight back and then starts loosing his balance and pulls his foot.
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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Start with the BASICS of hobble training. You begin by taking your horse to a small space. At My place I would use either my horse's 12 x 12 stall OR my 55 x 65 ft. training area. Use a halter and lead. First, put the lead over his back and work at picking up all 4 feet. If he walks away bring him back to the same spot. Do this for several lessons, praise, then release...or ride, if that's on your schedule.
Second, Keep the halter on and lead across the back and take an additional lead out with you, put it around the pastern of one of the front hooves, and pull forward. You are teaching your horse to voluntarily let you pull a hoof out and shift the weight to the other feet. You will work around the horse on each hoof, first pulling it forward and then out the side so that he will shift his weight and follow it to the side. 
Third, you work to get your horse to offer you a hoof. At THIS point, you will be working around your horse one hoof at a time, until you push on the leg and the horse OFFERS his hoof to you. He'll catch on.
LATER, when THIS problem is fixed, you'll want to look online and read about teaching your horse to be hobble trained.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Now he's totally fine to pick up his feet. I just touch his foot and say "up" and he will pick them up. Sometimes I don't even need to touch them and he'll just automatically pick them up.
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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Great, didn't know this. I suggest that you get or take a small hammer out with you. Tie him up and bang on the fence with it. Work towards first tapping the ground with it, and then picking up one hoof at a time and tapping on it, to replicate a shoeing.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Are you giving him any Bute the night before the farrier comes AND the morning of that day?

If you are not helping to manage the pain, the horse is going to act up.

And not fair to horse to expect it to behave when it is hurting, and not fair to your farrier either, when Bute would alleviate this.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

He was buted morning and night when the farrier came. He was on 1 scoop of bute am+pm for a week before the farrier came as well as the day the farrier came. 

Vets instructions were for him to be buted 2x a day for two weeks. Which is what I did. Now he's down to only 1 scoop in the am and then switching to previcox.

So to answer your question, YES he was buted the night before the farrier came as well as that morning. 
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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

oops.. misread a post.. is he being quicked a little with the nail ? maybe take a small small hammer and tap the shoe where the nail is , in between shoeing.


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

This:


> Stretched white line + rotation( diagnosed) =laminitis/ founder.
> Then add navicular.





> The vet said to me she cannot 100% say he foundered and my farrier said he doesn't have feet like look like a foundered horses does and he doubts he did ever. Who knows what happend.


Then your farrier has not seen many foundered horses. The banding and the laminar separation I can see in the pictures you originally posted are classic for founder. I can post pictures of my mare's feet for you to compare to if you want. The internet can give you 1000's more.

Your vet also says that the horse has navicular that has progressed to fairly bad bone damage. Bottom line is that this horse is in a lot of pain when the nails are hammered in. He is not going to behave unless you sedate him and give him pain medication, and it's really sort of unreasonable to expect him to. Hobbling or twitching him will probably make it worse. Sounds like he's being a brave boy as it is. 

I wonder if you might be able to use a glue-on shoe? Either metal or a flexible material shoes can be glued on. I hear good things about the Epona shoe. This would avoid some of the problem, particularly if you're careful not to have one leg up for too long at a time.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I told you how to fix it. You put on a lip chain and shoe him with his butt in a corner. Any time he jerks his foot or fights the farrier, you give a 'little' jerk on the lip chain. When he stands still, you do nothing. 'Nothing' (no pressure of any kind) is the only reward he needs. I have used a lip chain to re-school all of the bad horses for shoeing, giving shots, handling ears, etc. One or two sessions and they have about all stood perfectly still.

The key to using a lip chain is NEVER jerk it hard, NEVER put a LOT of pressure on it and NEVER use it to punish the horse. When you just tighten it or 'tug' on it enough to interrupt the bad behavior, it stops the horse; It hesitates and stops the behavior at which time to loosen the chain. You 'reward' it with a lack of pressure. It moves again and you tug on the chain again. If your timing is right and you do not put too much pressure on the chain, the horse will quickly figure out that moving hurts and standing still do not.

If you inflict too much pain, try to jerk and punish the horse and get carried away with the lip chain, you just make the horse get reactive and get 'on the fight'. As I have said many times, a reactive horse that is mad, scared, on the fight will not learn anything positive. So, for this to work, you have to use just enough pressure to interrupt or stop the bad behavior and not too much to 'set the horse off' or make him have a 'come apart'.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Is everyone missing the fact that the horse isn't just being a jerk because it's fun? The horse is seriously unsound in his front feet, whether it be navicular or laminitis.
The horse isn't bolting backwards, he's simply leaning back and loosing his balance. He's trying to support all his weight on his hind end by tucking underneath himself, then when he's off balance he yanks his foot to save himself from falling.

What I would do is start with whatever amount of pain control can be administered before hand, bute, tranq, whatever. The farrier also needs to be exceedingly patient with the horse, allowing several breaks, maybe letting the other sore foot stand on padding (we use a broken saddle gel pad for our laminitic pony). 
Like I said before my farrier rocks because she'll rotate around the horse, taking a little off each hoof until the horse needs a break and moving on to the next until they're all done. Maybe you can see if your farrier will do that too?

You should also look into therapeutic shoes that don't require nails, there are many out there.

Adding more pain to a horse already distraught with pain is only asking for trouble IMHO


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

punkstank said:


> is everyone missing the fact that the horse isn't just being a jerk because it's fun? The horse is seriously unsound in his front feet, whether it be navicular or laminitis.
> The horse isn't bolting backwards, he's simply leaning back and loosing his balance. He's trying to support all his weight on his hind end by tucking underneath himself, then when he's off balance he yanks his foot to save himself from falling.
> 
> What i would do is start with whatever amount of pain control can be administered before hand, bute, tranq, whatever. The farrier also needs to be exceedingly patient with the horse, allowing several breaks, maybe letting the other sore foot stand on padding (we use a broken saddle gel pad for our laminitic pony).
> ...


amen!!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I am not missing the point at all. If you will re-read what I wrote, I said that pain started the whole thing and he needed Bute before shoeing. She said she has used Bute and he does it anyway. She also said she can hammer on the nails herself, and he is OK. A horse in extreme pain would react to her as well as the farrier.

When he does the same thing with Bute and only with the farrier, it is the ANTICIPATION of pain instead of actual pain causing his to fight the farrier. [Or the farrier is also holding his leg too out to the side and he also has the beginning of arthritis and sore joints.] As a 'creature of habit', the horse needs a teaching tool like the lip chain to 'break the cycle' and show him that it does not hurt if he would just stand there and get it over with. Putting his butt in a corner is a big part of the prevention and breaking of the cycle. 

I have used this method many times on horses that I have been sent to rehab feet on and get over shoeing problems because they had been punished for pain. If you Bute them and do it this way, even crippled horses that can barely walk without Bute will stand for shoeing. The more crippled they are, the more you have let them put that foot down and go back and forth between front feet.

I seriously doubt this horse has been seen by a very competent Vet that is a lameness specialist. Founder and Navicular Syndrome are seldom seen in the same horse. If they are, the horse usually lays down so much that they have 'bed sores'. If the white line is stretched, the horse has been shod with waaaay too much toe which can, in turn, cause heel pain. I would really try to get this horse to a good lameness specialist.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

The vet told me that she believes because of his rotation which put alot of pressure on the navicular is likely what caused the issue in the first place. 

I had 6 X-rays done of each foot as well and he has big holes in both of his naviculars. He doesn't act like a typical navicular horse though. Like resting his front legs weirdly (ie; resting with the most painful hoof pointed downward) he will usually just rest a back leg and you can never tell he's lame unless you trot him he just seems alittle off. 

I know he had very long toes when I got him back in November. The farrier that told me of the stretched white line I no longer use. He wasn't bad but I just didn't like how he shod my horse. I also had two nerve blocks done. One on each hoof. This horse never lays down unless he's taking a nap or the like. 
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