# Bay with a dorsal stripe?



## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

My mare is a bay qh, but has a dorsal stripe and all of the dun markings besides zebra on the legs. I do not know her parents colors but I know zip's chocolate chIp is strong in her bloodlines. Would she be considered a dun or a bay? she had a foal 2 weeks ago, and she has the stripe and zebra coloring on her legs, but is smokey black.also, do you think this foal turn out to be grullo?

Here is the baby and part of mom


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

A picture of your mare would help to tell if she's actually a bay dun or just a bay.

From the part of her I can see in the pic you put up, she looks just bay. Dun washes out the color on the body of the horse, leaving the head and legs slightly darker. 

Bays can and do have counter-shading. My friend's brown (same gene as bay, just a different form of it) Arab gelding who you would swear was a dun because he has a "dorsal stripe" and what looks like leg barring, but Arabs don't carry the dun gene.

What color was the sire of the colt? In order for the colt to be dun, the sire or dam would have to be dun. All foals have primitive (i.e. dun) markings when they are born as a sort of camouflage.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

Sire was dark chocolate with no other markings besides a blaze

Here is the fillies dam. This was a couple days before she foaled. This is the best pic I have of her at the moment. You can't see the stripe but she has one.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

She almost looks like she could be a dun, but I'm not sure. One of her parents would have to be a dun in order for her to be a dun.

As for the sire. Is he an AQH? Is "dark chocolate" referring to what his coloring looks like? I'd be willing to bet he's a brown. 

After looking at photos of grullo foals, I'm going to say your baby is just plain black. He doesn't have the mousey color that grullo foals have.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

The sire is appendix qh. Thank you and I looked and I agree with you about the foal being black. Any chance of a smokey black? She has faded to look like a dark grullo now, and is still fading( from the sun) and I've heard that smokey blacks do that


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Only way the foal could be smokey black is if one of the parents carried cream. Or, if the sire was a smokey black and no one knew it. Do you know the colors of the sire's parents?


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

No, but I will ask tomorrow


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## Kati (Feb 24, 2013)

How old is the foal in that photo? To be honest, she doesn't exactly have the tones I associate with smokey blacks. (All were proven). They tend to have a more golden hue at what would be light points on a brown. They also tend to take on warmer tones (think chocolate) rather than greys like your filly. My smokey foal has a nearly gold coat around his eyes and in his ears in particular. The differences are subtle but there. I believe you have a lovely black colt. I've ateaches a couple rather unflattering pictures of Rem. I know he is smokey black as his parents are:
B? aa (mom)
BB A (bay) and a.
He's obviously not buckskin!

I'm just saying this with my past experiences with smokey blacks (proven) over the years. 10+ foals.

ETA: dad was a per lino so Rem has to carry cream. I forgot to include that!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Good example, Kati. 

So Rem's dam is a bay, correct, and his sire is a perlino? So Rem is EeaaCrcr, yes?


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## Kati (Feb 24, 2013)

No she's not. Dang it. My phone auto corrected my lowercase a into a capital a. Rem's dam is black as night. Quite a flashy little mare too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Kati said:


> No she's not. Dang it. My phone auto corrected my lowercase a into a capital a. Rem's dam is black as night. Quite a flashy little mare too!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah. So only difference is that Rem is E_aaCrcr. Do you know if he's homozygous black, or heterozygous? I'm just curious. He's freaking adorable.


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## Kati (Feb 24, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Ah. So only difference is that Rem is E_aaCrcr. Do you know if he's homozygous black, or heterozygous? I'm just curious. He's freaking adorable.


I don't for sure. His dam has never been tested and in Rem's case it doesn't matter much. He's getting snipped just as soon as the flies go away.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

I don't know much about coloring on horses (as you can see). So you all think she will be black? I hope so!! I love black horses. So should I call the mare a bay or dun, or bay dun?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I'm leaning more toward bay for your mare, Spirit. 

The filly is definitely black.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I'm leaning more toward bay for your mare, Spirit.
> 
> The filly is definitely black.



Thank you!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

From what the body shot of the mare shows on my laptop, i would say dun or buckskin, not bay. The foal will shed out a diff color as he loses his baby hair.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

The foal is black not grulla they are born tannish most of the time. What you are seeing is foal counter shading. The mare is bay I can tell by her color. Dun is a dilution and I see no dilution in her. She is a countershaded bay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Here are some examples to tell the difference between dun and counter shading. Look at the crispness and coat dilution.  the dorsal also continues into the tail.

Dun dorsals



Leg bars



Grullo foal


Counter shading and false leg bars



_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

The second counter-shading pic is an Arab, yes? That's what my friend's Arab gelding has. Had the hardest time convincing her that he wasn't dun. :lol:


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

And since I'm a visual learner one more pic. Check this bay dun out. Peachy matte of dun coat dilution he also has leg bars, facial masking, and guard hairs. Not all duns need all that dun factor (dorsal and dilution required only) but I want you check out the coloration mostly. 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Yes drafty the second counter shading pic and leg bars which are from the same horse are a purebred Arabian. Purebred Arabians carry no dun of course 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

Ok so I know this thread was pretty much done but I wanted to see if y'all have the same opinion about the baby being black now that she is 3 weeks old. These pics were of her today.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'd still say black and the mom looks more bay in those pics. In the body shot she looked dun, imo but in the better lighting bay. More pics would help.

Also, you didn't answer what color dad was.

I think you're getting stuck on using a description of the color as the color. The foal may LOOK grullo but she is black.. it's like calling a grey "white" or a seal brown "black" chestnut "brown" it gets very confusing.

If you don't know make it clear you are describing. "The sire is a dark chocolate color but brown all over" (ok probably a liver chestnut) or "dark chocolate with black points like a bay" (so maybe a dark bay or brown?) and we can ask other questions to help determine the actual color.

There is genotype and phenotype (what it is and what it looks like) it gets confusing when they are used inter changeably.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

This is not The foals dad, but it is the color he was.

He may have been even darker. I can't believe I didn't take pics of him.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Lol I see the "dark chocolate!" 

Unfortunately it's really hard for me to see from that picture. Did he have dark points the way your mare has? (Mane, tail, legs..)

I almost wonder if he/the foal is smokey black?

Let's see what other people say on the picture you posted.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

The dad had no darker points, only a blaze


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

So maybe like this?










(The other picture you posted came up when I googled lol)

This is a very dark liver chestnut (they do come darker but I picked this one since you can actually tell it's a chestnut lol). Note the lack of points, esp on his legs the hairs get lighter and browner on the bottom (a good way to tell if the legs are black or brown).

Assuming the dad is a liver chestnut it doesn't really matter with the babies color as chestnut is recessive.

It means that baby has one black and one red gene, and (assuming black) no agouti genes (what makes a bay or brown).

Doesn't really matter if you aren't breeding but I find it interesting.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

LOL! This is where I just HAVE TO KNOW! I'd be pulling tail hairs so I could find out, even if I wasn't going to breed the animal in question. My brain would run around in circles until I couldn't stand it anymore.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> So maybe like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The dad looked like that, but not the lighter points around the flank and other points. So with what you said, what color would the foal be considered?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Not sure what you meant since I feel the horse pictured was relatively even colored...

He does sound like a liver chestnut, which would not effect the color of the foal at all (most recessive color) therefore I still vote black for baby


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

Yay still black! Thank you for your opinion and I agree, but any other opinions would help too


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

The lighter areas you're seeing are tricks of the light. That horse is uniformly one color, save for the slight lightening on the lower legs.

So, I'm going to agree with Yogiwick and say that the sire was most likely a liver chestnut.

Baby is still black, IMPO. Neither parent carries a cream dilution (unless sire is, indeed, smokey black, but the only way to tell would be to color test the foal), and the dam obviously didn't pass on her agouti.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

Thanks drafty! I think it may just be that the baby is sun bleached and that is why she looks so light.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

How would you color test the foal?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorhorse.php

Costs $25 per test. I would test for cream only. It's clear the foal doesn't carry agouti. If you wanted to, you could test for dun, but I think it would be a waste of money, personally.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Spiritandjuniper4711 said:


> Thanks drafty! I think it may just be that the baby is sun bleached and that is why she looks so light.


Doubt she's sun bleached as she's just a baby. Black babies are always "mousy" in fact I think she's rather dark.

Lots of baby colors are light.

Idk if I'd bother testing. If you want to go for it but I would assume foal is E/e (black based, but dad was chestnut therefore E/e with the red instead of E/E (2 blacks)) a/a (no agouti, aka black instead of brown or bay) and does not carry cream.

So tests would be black (waste of money, she is black based) 
agouti (wouldn't bother, unless you suspect she may be bay/brown which I find very unlikely)
cream (possible depending on dad's color, but assuming dad was a liver chestnut then I wouldn't bother, if you aren't sure on dad and want to spend the money test for this. Black/smokey black can look very similar, so there is no way to tell 100% just by looking, hence the test if you care)
dun (if neither parent is dun (and I do not believe mom is dun but better pictures would help) then she is not dun. I think it's unlikely and wouldn't bother with this test)

In theory you could test for all the other stuff too but that really is a waste 

I agree with Drafty, I would only test for cream.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Remember the countershading/primitive markings (dorsals) are normal in foals, and can sometimes be found in non dun adults as well.
Also remember the dun gene is a dilution.

Here are some pictures of grullo (black+dun) babies. Note how much lighter they are.



















There are a million better pictures just trying to find ones approx the same age.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

Well, I'm most likely not going to breed her any, so I think I will just watch and wait to see if she has any creme. I really didn't care about color when I had the mare bred, but now I wish I would've asked. Tomorrow I will try to get better pics of the mare.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I would put my money on black, though there is a slight chance of smokey black (which as I said previously you cannot always tell by looking)


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## HadleyBug (Jul 10, 2014)

I would just like to put in my two cents and say I think Momma could very well be a dun. 

My mother, when I was around 10, bred a mare and the colt came out looking bay, shedding into a darker bay color with a dorsal stripe and leg barrings. He ended up being a dun with extreme sooting to where his true color was unrecognizable. 

BUT she could just be a bay.. If she is a sooty bay, it could form the dorsal stripe. It can also form what look like leg barrings.. So if she has any soot in her coloring, which she probably does, it could cause the baby to have what look like leg barrings, or the baby could even be extremely sooty as well making her appear black.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Yogiwick--Such cute babies o,o

OP, are you just asking out of curiosity?


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

Yes I'm just really confused over what color this little girl will be. When I feed later I will get some good pics of mama. Here is 1 colt from her a few years back. I have permission from the current owner to post a picture. He is very skinny I know, but they didn't feed thier horses for about 6 months for unknown reasons, but I am feeding them now, but of coarse they are paying for the feed. Her filly from last year that was an accident (they both were given to me by the owners of the one colt because of that) looked IDENTACLE to her. Not one thing was different.


I'm pretty sure his dad was black.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

That colt is definitely bay with sooty, based on that pic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Spirit I'm sure when the horse is healthy it will be easier to tell what color the horse is. Wen they are unhealthy it will affect the coat color. Bays can get pretty golden though. My colt jet is bay with pangare he is very golden in the summer.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Spirit I'm sure when the horse is healthy it will be easier to tell what color the horse is. Wen they are unhealthy it will affect the coat color. Bays can get pretty golden though. My colt jet is bay with pangare he is very golden in the summer.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He is a pretty boy! I was just using that as an example of one colt the mare has had that is full grown to help. He was lighter than jetta when he was born.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

For those who asked, here are better pics of the dam.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

The mare is most definitely bay with some sooty. No question. The "dorsal stripe" is counter-shading and the "shoulder bars" are sooty. 

So, baby is most definitely black.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yup, if you look at pictures of dun's dorsal stripes they are VERY clear.

I agree, 100% bay on the mare. She is a nice dark color, similar to dun, but definitely not dun imo.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Agree baby looks black. Seems people want to see dun markings in their horses:lol: I know my old Stud was a black overo. In his baby pics he was a mousy color & had dark dorsal.breeder thought was maybe going to be grullo but impossible Dam was Black QH & sire was a Sorrel overo. My Stud retained that "dorsal" countershading. When he was his blackest you couldn't really see it but when he bleached or was shedding out his old coat you could see it rest of his coat was faded but that stripe was black. Could not check for other primative markings on him because of the white of his overo coloring. I just thought it was neat that this he still had a coutershade strip on black horse:? Friend of Mine had a bay broodmare Like OP had faint strip & barring,absolutely no dun in pedigree but friend was convinced that her baby that showed similiar coutershading was a dun {baby daddy was a chestnut}. She had always wanted a dun,so trying to tell her it wasn't possible was just about impossible:lol::lol:


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

Ok so black baby, bay mare. Thanks to all who replied


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