# The Difference Between a CowHorse Turnaround and a Spin



## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

This is a fairly misunderstood topic in my opinion and one that causes a great deal of confusion. Horses make two distinct and proper turns on the hind end. While they may look similar they are actually fairly different at the core.

First off, we’ll talk about the spin, also called a pivot turn when done at the walk. To properly execute a pivot turn, the horse would plant the inside hind leg and cross-over, every single step, with the front end. A horse would make this type of turn in the Western Pleasure ring, Showmanship, and several other events. The problem with this type of turn, for a cowhorse, is that it is initiated through forward momentum.

For those of you who’ve seen or heard me talk about the “purposeful circle” exercise, this circle, when drawn down as tight as it can be, becomes a spin. Making it purposeful is what would help to give the initial spin some momentum, forward momentum. This method is widely viewed as a very sound and basic way to begin training a horse to spin. I use it extensively to help get a horse pulling harder with the front end, but I don’t frequently screw it down into a spin unless the horse will be going into reining. There is a bit more to fixing that pivot leg than this, but I don’t want to get into the spin in too much depth. Suffice it to say that, other than making sale horses look slick, and competing in reining, this is not a very practical turn for anything that I do in the Real World. Never seen a cow run around me that fast, anyway. If you get your cowhorse to work by pivoting around the inside hind, you’re just plain gonna lose a lot of cows.

What I’m calling a cowhorse turnaround is the type of turn that I want my horses to make almost all of the time. In this type of turn, the horse will properly begin by leaning back, so as to begin with backward momentum. Then it will place it’s weigh on the outside hind leg, and hold it’s inside shoulder up and off of the cow, keeping it’s center of gravity farther away from the cow, and placing horse and rider in position to leave the turn in the correct lead. The horse may very well also initiate the turn by crossing behind on the front end. The front end stays way back off of the cow, with the hind legs very deep under the horse. The main core difference here is that, unlike the spin, the turnaround is initiated with backward momentum. This is what gives the cowhorse that characteristic “draw”. The inside hind will still be on the ground, and, it may look like this leg is integral to the turn, but in reality it bears very little of the horse’s weight until the turn is through and it takes the next step.

Let’s now think about a horse leaving the Turnaround. If a horse were to turn left and leave the turnaround straight into the lope, it would properly depart on the left lead. The left lead begins with the right hind, which would have been the outside or weight bearing leg in the turn. This is why turning around this way is so practical. A horse leaving a spin into a lope will frequently have to jump their hip over to do so or would have to leave in an arc rather than a straight line. Turning on the outside hind allows the turn to be executed without moving forward, getting closer to the cow, keeping the horse in a much better position to control the cow. As I know this may all be very difficult to visualize, look for a video on this topic very soon on our Youtube page. If you haven’t yet subscribed to that page, please check it out. We feel it has some good information and tastes a bit like peppermint!


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

I totally forgot about doing this video. Will try to get on that soon.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Just as a point of clarification, in a typical cowhorse reining pattern, you want the spin to be a spin - so no leaning back on the HQ when spinning. The "cowhorse turnaround" I think you are talking about is what you want a horse to do while working the cow. It's not really a "turnaround", but is a turn on the cow (you turn at a max less than 180). When I show cowhorse, I'd get dinged (and do get dinged) if my horse leans back in the spin during the reining pattern.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Yes, a turnaround in reining speak is a rollback.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

A true 'roll-back' is a backing maneuver. The horse is rocked back on its hind end and steps BEHIND the inside front foot with the outside front foot. Then, the horse 'sweeps' around a full 180 degrees. Never more. When a cutting trainer trains a young horse, they back it into a roll-back, ask it to come around, back it again (it will back in sort of a circle) and come around again. They will do this several times warming up a horse before a training session or before going into the herd at a cutting contest.

The reason they back a horse into a roll-back rather than just doing 1/2 of a reining type spin is to 'give ground' to the cow. This lets them back slightly away from the cow so it cannot beat them back to the herd. One half of a reining turn-around or spin takes longer and does not let the horse go forward between the cow and the herd nearly as quickly as a roll-back does. If you try to hold a cow out of a herd with reining type roll-backs (1/2 spins) you would soon find yourself 'behind' the cow and losing it or 'feeding out' too much. 

This concept of 'giving ground to the cow' is what big cutting round-pens are for. [Ours is 150 foot across.] As the cow goes around the fence on the round-pen, the horse learns to 'give ground' to the cow to keep from getting 'beat'. Then, before you take one to the shows, you have to work in a square pen so that the horse learns to travel a little straighter across the pen. 

When I used to take flunk-out reiners and cutters to make cow horses and stock horses out of, the reiners could not hold a cow until they learned how to do a true roll-back. They just scrambled and were waaaay too slow to hold a cow with the reining turn-arounds. 

On the other had, it took even longer to get the ex-cutters to do the forward moving spin. I had to start them all over on it teaching them to make the small circles with a lot of bend or they would fall into their spins and start backing up or hopping around and go back to placing their outside front foot behind their inside hid foot. 

While the reining patterns call for a 'roll-back', almost all reiners just level out, move their hind feet back a little and do 1/2 of a spin instead of a true roll-back.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

A couple of examples for a little more clarification - 

Cow Horse Turnarounds with Buck Brannaman: 




Compared to: 

Reining Training Your Horse to Spin pt.1: 



_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

I guess this must have been a sorry blog ...


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

DanielDauphin said:


> I guess this must have been a sorry blog ...


Don't take it as a real indication of your writing ability man. It's clear that you do indeed posess valuable knowledge. Public recognition of one's creative efforts is always hit-or-miss, trial-and-error. I know I've written some things around here where I know people must've been thinking "wtf is this guy smoking" lol. Reminds me of this quote though, I think it's from an old Hindu text originally but it was used by Steven Pressfield in his book "The War of Art" to describe the experience of creating for the public. "We are entitled only to our labors, but not to the fruits of our labors".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think the video of Buck is a really lousy example of a cutter/cowhorse turn-around. It is a hybrid cross of a reining turn-around and a backing without stepping behind. It actually shows a horse trying to do a reining type spin while the rider is not letting the horse have the forward movement he needs. I makes the horse switch his hind pivot foot and hop like I said would happen if the horse is not low in front, 'flat' and not keeping enough forward motion.

I found a video of Boyd Rice who I consider to be the best horseman and all around trainer out there today. If you have not heard of him, He has won the Snaffle Bit Futurity at Reno, the NCHA Super Stakes and Derby and this year won the 'World's Greatest Horseman' event. I think he has almost $4 million in earnings and is still in his 40s. He is pure poetry on a horse and I think his videos are great.

He is a short clip showing how to start backing a horse into a true rollback where the horse steps behind himself. He is doing the 'backing in a circle' that I talked about on this baby.





Here is his website -- Rice Performance Horses | Boyd Rice


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

Thanks for this thread.It really clarified the difference for me ! Very well explained.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

DanielDauphin said:


> I guess this must have been a sorry blog ...


Actually, I think it is a good point for discussion! I'm enjoying all the posts and viewpoints. Very interesting, indeed!


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Cherie said:


> I think the video of Buck is a really lousy example of a cutter/cowhorse turn-around. It is a hybrid cross of a reining turn-around and a backing without stepping behind. It actually shows a horse trying to do a reining type spin while the rider is not letting the horse have the forward movement he needs. I makes the horse switch his hind pivot foot and hop like I said would happen if the horse is not low in front, 'flat' and not keeping enough forward motion.
> 
> I found a video of Boyd Rice who I consider to be the best horseman and all around trainer out there today. If you have not heard of him, He has won the Snaffle Bit Futurity at Reno, the NCHA Super Stakes and Derby and this year won the 'World's Greatest Horseman' event. I think he has almost $4 million in earnings and is still in his 40s. He is pure poetry on a horse and I think his videos are great.
> 
> ...


About Buck's segment Cherie it's interesting that you noticed those things because those are the very questions he addresses in the full segment (The Horseman's Gazette issue 1/Winter 2009). How the horse switches the pivot foot on his own and gradually takes on a more and more forward momentum as the turn speeds up. He also demonstrates setting the following front foot either across or in behind explaining "either way is proper, so long as it's on your terms and you know where your horse's feet are". Admittedly it's tough to glean a complete picture from a two-minute clip, but considering the man's stature and experience I (personally) tend to give his opinions at least some consideration. It's just a different style. Boyd is also clearly impressive. The things he's doing on that two-year old I've seen others do, but the really remarkable thing is how little his tail moves throughout all of that and how he shows very little upset for all the pressure he's under. That level of effort would upset many older more experienced horses, even under good riders! How do you think he achieves that combination of power and performance with mental calmness so successfully, especially considering the horse's immaturity?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Well bred cutting prospects really are very mentally mature and can generally handle LOTS of pressure quite well.
Agree with Cherie on Buck. Those weren't so much CowHorse turns. 

Gist of it all was:
Spin uses inside hind as pivot and weight bearing foot, and is a very FORWARD movement which is impractical in nearly all aspects other than showing in a reining class
CowHorse turn is a REARWARD movement where the horse will initially cross under. This is a very practical turn and the one suggested for use when turning around on a narrow cliff-side trail...


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think Buck is a good horsemanship teacher, good colt starter and a good all-around ranch horse trainer. He does not finish either reiners or cutters. I have never seen him ride a horse that would have been even slightly competitive in either event. 

What is happening in his video would be a hybrid cross that would truly be inappropriate at any level of reining training or cutting training. The horse is not coming back well enough to ever develop into a cutter that rolls back over its hocks. The horse is not forward enough and is too back for him to ever develop a good spin. He is stuck in a place half way between the two where the horse can do neither well. The horse cannot sustain a good spin (which he is trying to do as soon as he goes more than 180 degrees) because he is not forward enough or flat enough to do it. He is trying to cross over and barely getting it done.

As for both crossing over or behind being proper -- not really. They are not interchangeable in either occupation. The reiner must sustain 4 or more revolutions ALWAYS crossing over.

The cowhorse during herd work or boxing must ALWAYS be backing into his turn-around. There just are no places they are both appropriate other than when riding a ranch horse and just letting him get the job done the best he can where he is not expected to work at the high level that either a cutter or reiner has to do to be shown or do a credible job of either one.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Cherie said:


> I think Buck is a good horsemanship teacher, good colt starter and a good all-around ranch horse trainer. He does not finish either reiners or cutters. I have never seen him ride a horse that would have been even slightly competitive in either event.
> 
> What is happening in his video would be a hybrid cross that would truly be inappropriate at any level of reining training or cutting training. The horse is not coming back well enough to ever develop into a cutter that rolls back over its hocks. The horse is not forward enough and is too back for him to ever develop a good spin. He is stuck in a place half way between the two where the horse can do neither well. The horse cannot sustain a good spin (which he is trying to do as soon as he goes more than 180 degrees) because he is not forward enough or flat enough to do it. He is trying to cross over and barely getting it done.
> 
> ...


If we're talking about only what would be competitive in a show ring by the judging standards in competition then yeah I see your point. Maybe this other style is outside of the scope of the question at hand but I think that it has application. What you call 'stuck' between forward and backward momentum could also be called balanced with the potential to go either forward or backward into or out of a turn - both of which you might use depending on the job. I think the point with Buck is to have a multi-use bridle horse, but yeah that's a different deal than a reining horse or a 'cow horse' (as if this horse isn't also used to cut and work cattle, even if only on the ranch or clinic which doesn't count?)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Ok I haven't been able to stop thinking about this turnaround question all yesterday and last night. Got to thinking on it and then thought "why am I defending Buck Brannaman's style of turning?". Maybe because I've spent the past 5 years immersing in the Tom Dorrance/Ray Hunt/Buck Brannaman way of thinking. But I'm starting to question that. I'm more interested in learning than in being right - so if there's a superior way to get things done I'm willing to change what I'm doing. But what about the other types of turns, in particular the "competition" cow horse turn is better or more useful than what Buck is doing? From my point of view it looks like he's doing a pretty good job, but perhaps my scope is too limited in this area?

(another example)


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Agree with all Cherir said with regard to Buck. What he is doing would be fine for ranch work and would certainly be fun and is above the "average".
FWIW though, none of that would put you above the lower third in any reining or cutting. Doesn't mean it wouldn't work on the ranch. Doesn't mean it wouldn't still be fun, or worthwhile. Doesn't mean that Buck is wrong or that you would be wrong to follow what he advises. Just means if you or he goes to town, someone else takes your money home. Lol
FWIW, I don't think that either Dorrance brother equates to Ray or Buck, very different personalities at play there.
Buck also bills himself as fairly anti-show and anti-trainer. He's a vaquero. A horseman's horseman. He's above that stuff and all us mere mortals...
If you ever actually meet him, you will realize that he rides such big horses to help carry his ego...


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

DanielDauphin said:


> Agree with all Cherir said with regard to Buck. What he is doing would be fine for ranch work and would certainly be fun and is above the "average".
> FWIW though, none of that would put you above the lower third in any reining or cutting. Doesn't mean it wouldn't work on the ranch. Doesn't mean it wouldn't still be fun, or worthwhile. Doesn't mean that Buck is wrong or that you would be wrong to follow what he advises. Just means if you or he goes to town, someone else takes your money home. Lol
> FWIW, I don't think that either Dorrance brother equates to Ray or Buck, very different personalities at play there.
> Buck also bills himself as fairly anti-show and anti-trainer. He's a vaquero. A horseman's horseman. He's above that stuff and all us mere mortals...
> If you ever actually meet him, you will realize that he rides such big horses *to help carry his ego*...


 
He's a decent neighbor, so's his family.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Not saying otherwise, I just find the way he talks to and treats others to be fairly condescending. Obviously, those folks don't seem to mind...


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Oh snap lol. Yeah I have met him Daniel on a couple of different occasions. The first clinic I audited was in Steamboat CO, driving two days through the Arizona and Utah middle of nowhere (which is a great drive) to get there. The man is opionated and maybe has every right to be. But I'm not married to him or his way of doing things. I'm interested in becoming every bit as good as he is in my own way -sounds like you are as well. So the cow horse turn, that should be entirely a backward movement with the following front leg reaching in behind (the same as in backing a circle)?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

It is backward until you reach the halfway point. Then, the horse is springing forward to head the cow. The backward portion can be thought of as coiling a spring. The ending is the releasing of the spring. Many people try and beat a cow through a turn. In actuality, the cow must lead the turn and the horse follows. Otherwise, he would juke while you jive and you would lose him. Cow beats you into the turn. You beat him out of it.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

DanielDauphin said:


> Cow beats you into the turn. You beat him out of it.


Interesting. It's like roping, or shooting a moving target. You aim for where he's going to be, not where he is.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Since cows do not circle a horse, a working ranch horse does not need to turn more than 180 degrees. A good cowhorse or horse started in cutting training ALWAYS stops straight, never crooked or facing the cow. He stops straight with only his head turned toward the cow. A trainer will back the horse a step or two (very straight) before letting the cow 'draw' the horse. You never try to hurry the turn as this will get the horse hopping or will let they step out of their tracks behind. Trainers call it "Holding their ground behind!" They then fold up and sweep around as the cow starts going the other way. If the horse is behind the cow (which the green ones will always be), the time to catch up is after the turn is complete. If the horse jumps forward out of his tracks too soon, He will go toward the cow instead of staying parallel and will push the cow out too much. 

The flat spin or turn-around of the reiner is only to demonstrate the obedience, athleticism and ability to do something completely impractical. The sliding stop and '4 revolution spin' are all showmanship. No ranch horse anywhere has to do that to work any cow.

So, when I see a ranch horse being spun around like in the Buck clip, I only see someone 'showing off'. The horse is really trying to turn around right, but is being held so tightly that he cannot turn flat. 

The horse is very stiff and trying to turn like a gate swinging on a hinge. If he kept going around (like any reiner will do), at some point he would hit himself and then would start hopping. It is the stiff horses that develop the 'hoppy turn-arounds'.

The kind of turn-arounds in the Buck clip used to be able to win or place in a ranch horse or stock horse competition. Nowadays, they won't place anywhere.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Cherie said:


> Since cows do not circle a horse, a working ranch horse does not need to turn more than 180 degrees. A good cowhorse or horse started in cutting training ALWAYS stops straight, never crooked or facing the cow. He stops straight with only his head turned toward the cow. A trainer will back the horse a step or two (very straight) before letting the cow 'draw' the horse. You never try to hurry the turn as this will get the horse hopping or will let they step out of their tracks behind. Trainers call it "Holding their ground behind!" They then fold up and sweep around as the cow starts going the other way. If the horse is behind the cow (which the green ones will always be), the time to catch up is after the turn is complete. If the horse jumps forward out of his tracks too soon, He will go toward the cow instead of staying parallel and will push the cow out too much.
> 
> The flat spin or turn-around of the reiner is only to demonstrate the obedience, athleticism and ability to do something completely impractical. The sliding stop and '4 revolution spin' are all showmanship. No ranch horse anywhere has to do that to work any cow.
> 
> ...


Food for thought, thank you Cherie. But I wonder what are the comparative merits of ranch horses and stock horses vs cow horses and cutting horses. Any showing at all could be said to be showing off, if you think about it in that way! But the athleticism of the cutting and cow horses IS impressive.


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