# New instructor wants me to ride with side reins on newly broke horse. Thoughts?



## TurkishVan (Feb 11, 2013)

I just broke my mare to ride this Christmas, and due to cold weather and time, I have probably put less than 10 hours of riding time on her. (Probably closer to 7 hours tops.) She's a true champ, and has been wonderful through it all. 

I had been lunging her in a Pessoa-system knockoff every once in a while. She seeks out contact with the bit, and I have never used any devices to "force" her into a frame. When working with the pessoa, we only lunge about 15-20 minutes, and I don't pull it incredibly tight. A successful day is one in which she steps through with the hind end, lifts her back for a few steps, and arches her neck. I put a lot of emphasis on lifting her back up, but I know that young horses can get sore muscles quickly, and I don't rush her. If she does it for 5 steps, we then relax, try again, and aim for 6 or 7. When we get 6 or 7, we aim for 8. I was told by my previous trainer that we should not try to take "short cuts", and that I should not force her into a frame, or her back end will not come through as successfully. In other words, if I take my time, and lay down a good strong foundation, she will be better off in the long run.
I have noticed that she seems to do better with no devices at all, and steps under herself much better than when compared to her performance in the pessoa. This is why I don't use it very often. 

Unfortunately, my old trainer moved away, and I was left without an instructor for many months. I've been wanting someone to help me with this mare, as I really need eyes on the ground! Another boarder mentioned a friend of hers that she was going to start training with, so I expressed interest in a lesson. 

First lesson went fairly great, although I didn't feel like I learned that much. But again, I need eyes on the ground. The trainer told me that my mare moved very nicely, and was very impressed at her performance. We mainly just worked at getting a nice connection at a walk and trot. We have another lesson at the end of this week, and the boarder who originally told me about the trainer just informed me that the trainer said I'd be using side reins during this lesson. (The trainer had previously suggested that I might try it alone, and on my own time, as I want to pay for a riding lesson, not a lunging lesson.) It sounded like I'd be riding with side reins, not lunging. 

Personally, I do not want to use side reins on my mare. I told the boarder this and she laughed (no idea why!), then gave me that, "Are you serious?" look. Then she told me that, "Oh, well she'll let her get long and low. Side reins don't hurt horses." 
I was told by my previous trainer to stay away from side reins, because they almost always put horses entirely on their forehand, and focus mainly on headset. (Of course, I was riding horses that had never ridden dressage, so maybe this only pertains to horses new to the discipline, or to the idea of collection?) I have seen how the Pessoa system I have works, and I have noticed that although my mare lifts her back a bit, her hind end does not come under itself as much as it does when she has nothing on at all. She is a mare that doesn't have much "go", so I'm worried that side reins will just put her into a false frame, and leave her butt sticking out from behind. 

Are my worries justified? Please don't think that I disagree completely with side reins. I'm sure they can be used properly, but I don't know if my horse would do well with them. I don't want this to be a "side reins vs. without" thread, but by all means, please do note the pros and cons of side reins. I'd like to hear people's opinions. 
I really love this mare, and want to do everything right with her. 
Thanks!

Edit: I should also note that I have no idea what type of side reins I'd be using, if I did permit it. I do not have a pair, but I believe the other boarder mentioned here might, and I do not think they are elastic. The ones I've seen her use are made with nylon (?) and have a rubber donut on them. I really haven't seen her use them, but her horse was very well trained when she got it, so she may not need to.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I think the bottom line is that it's your horse, and if you don't feel comfortable using something on your horse I wouldn't feel bad letting your trainer know that you want to use something else/nothing else.

I'm interested to see what people have to say...


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Riding with side reins is very dangerous.
Lunging with them correctly adjusted and using proper lunging technique is very beneficial for teaching the horse about the contact.
I am not a fan of the pessoa systems, or any sliding reins, on green horses. For retrainers, they do have uses. For babies I follow the KISS (keep it simple silly) method - it's best not to get too fancy because you want the horse to understand things very basically.

Contact is not so difficult. The horse needs to push from behind into a steady rein. For this the side rein is perfect. To add in sliding reins and all sorts of other junk makes it so much less translatable into the saddle, and adds way too much unnecessary difficulty for the horse. Leg means go forward into the contact. Not slide around on the end of a rein or get caught in the mouth by the pessoa system...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I have never ridden with side reins and don't ever plan to as I think they are not safe especially on a green horse. I suppose I would use them longeing but that's all.
It's your horse and you seem to be doing well with it so far. It may take more time not using gimmicks but better in the long run.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Besides what she has you do she should not be discussing your lessons with someone else, that is very unprofessional and now has caused undo stress.
I would tell her politely to keep your sessions private.
Also I would not ride in sidereins 1st time ever and ride. Could go terrible wrong quickly.
I am not sure I would even ever ride in side reins you can't give any release if needed


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Side reins are not mean for riding. Get a new trainer.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

NoNoNoNoNo.

ANY instructor that wants to put side reins on a greenie should be shot.
They have their uses for school horses and beginners so the horse doesn't have his mouth tugged/ back hurt... but a GREEN horse? NO.

Run the other way.

Their are so many reasons as to why not, and if you would like them I will happily list them... find a new trainer asap!


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

No riding in side reins!! I don't have a problem with them being used properly while lunging, but never while riding! Anyone that suggested this to me, especially if they went so far as to TELL me that I was going to be using them, would not be my trainer for much longer. I'd inform the trainer that riding in side reins was not gonna happen, and if she isn't willing to skip on them then pass on the lesson. Don't be rude about it, but make it clear that you aren't willing to do this for safety reasons.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Honestly, a trainer that would suggest riding in side reins is not a trainer. They are not meant for that, nor is it safe. And a greenie? She's an idiot. For your own safety and for your horse's well being, find someone that is an actual trainer and knows what they're doing.


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## TurkishVan (Feb 11, 2013)

Thank you for the replies so far! 

I do plan on refusing to use side reins, even if she offers to just lunge her in them. I do not have enough experience to know if I'm adjusting them properly, and no one else in my barn does either. And considering that I just met this lady, and haven't had enough time to gauge her depth of knowledge, I don't trust her to know what she's doing either. 

I haven't gotten the trainer's phone number yet, which is why I had to communicate with the other boarder. The boarder told me again yesterday that "in tomorrow's lesson [they] wouldn't crank the side reins in, so [my horse] would be just fine." I firmly refused again. I do not think I'll stay with this woman for long, as this seems to be the only training method she knows. Really I have someone else set up, but she won't be in our area again until April, and I wanted to practice before then. 

Oh how I wish I had my old dressage trainer back! No gimmicks with her- just hard work, sweat, and gentle persuasion. My horses loved her, and liked me better when I rode under her... *sigh*


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Rereading your post, I think it wasn't the trainer that said you would be riding in side reins so maybe you should clarify this with her before the next lesson


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## Hang on Fi (Sep 22, 2007)

Definitely would try and find a new trainer from your last post OP... If she's bullying her methods on you even after you refuse them, it'll only get worse or she'll start coping an attitude... Neither of which are beneficial for you or your horse. 

I have no experience with side-reins, but never had a trainer suggest them on a horse via ground or saddle.

Sorry to hear about your trainer woes, keep the radar up looking for a new one.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am just surprised that so much focus is being places on contact and collection for a horse with so few rides. I would think that more focus on getting her rythmically forward would be the ticket, even it she is a bit on the forehand to begin with.


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## Cielo Notturno (Sep 12, 2013)

Many of you said that it is dangerous to ride with side reins: may you please explain why?

I've never used them and it is always nice to learn new things


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

You would be better off setting up a video camera and watching yourself ride this horse than to engage a trainer who suggests short cuts like riding a green dressage prospect in side reins. 

I agree with eyes on the ground.. but they need to be good eyes that can see and be attached to a good mind with experience. 

Never ride in side reins. The horse can get a rein through the mouth and suddenly feel trapped.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

MANY great comments but I thought I could explain this from a different angle. 
It takes YEARS for a horse to understand the cues from the rider to collect in a frame. It is similar to ballroom dancing where both the man (who gives the cues) and the women (who takes the cues) learn to communicate so well that it seems effortless and invisible. And then, they both have to practice and practice and practice, ad nauseum.
UNTIL THEN, your young horse will understand a little, then not seem to understand at all, then one day understand well and perform well, the next day seem off, and it's all about being GREEN. A horse is smart enough to _finally_ figure out what your WANT but needs thousands of hours of practice to take YOUR cue, pass it through HIS BRAIN and make HIS BODY perform it.
*THIS is why even using side reins on a green horse will just frustrate him and make him feel claustrophobic! * He may even explode and rear and buck because he feels trapped.
Keep the horse.
Find a new trainer. =D


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Because side reins restrict head movement, the horse can feel trapped, especially if something upsets it. With young horses this can turn deadly for either the horse or the rider. I agree with videoing your riding. It is so much easier to see what need fixin that someone trying to explain it. I also agree that this so-called trainer leaves a lot to be desired. Ask for half a dozen references and check them out.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I remember my old trainer lunging my green horse in side reins for the first time and warning us to be nice and quiet as some horses do not react well. Riding with them on a broke horse is dangerous. On a green horse, that hasn't had them yet?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I agree with actually talking to the TRAINER about it. I also agree that the focus is in the wrong place and would probably find another trainer either way.

At the end of the day, even if we all thought it was the best idea, you have every right to say no.


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## CRK (Sep 26, 2012)

I will add my two cents to the advice that has already been given to stay away from riding in side reins. I personally don't use them even while lunging, but I know they can be used correctly on a horse that is already trained to a point that they understand contact and how to carry themselves in a frame. On a young horse, I have found they only encourage stiffness and bracing.

To answer Cielo's question, a horse can panic if he feels constricted in the side reins. I have seen several horses flip over while just being lunged in side reins. Something spooks the horse, they jump, panic, rear, and over they go. Bad enough to have to see a horse go through this, but a rider could be crushed if this happened. 

It sounds as if you are off to a great start by focusing on engaging your young horse's hind end and encouraging her to lift her back, so I wouldn't risk losing your progress with a possibly traumatic side rein session.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

TurkishVan said:


> Thank you for the replies so far!
> 
> I do plan on refusing to use side reins, even if she offers to just lunge her in them. I do not have enough experience to know if I'm adjusting them properly, and no one else in my barn does either. And considering that I just met this lady, and haven't had enough time to gauge her depth of knowledge, I don't trust her to know what she's doing either.
> 
> ...


 
Oh crud. She's one of those "Crank the head and stare at it" people. Nails on the chalkboard.....
I have trained maybe 5 horses in my career that needed side reins for a lunge or two and then didn't need the anymore. I like side reins to help a horse come back from an injury to help them engage the topline without weight on the back. However, you have to really know how to drive them back end or the side reins don't do what they're supposed to do. It's difficult and some horses outsmart sidereins and that causes the BTV problem.

So, you're right, if you don't know how to use them, she CLEARLY does not - don't do it. Find trainer that knows how to train properly.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

OP, what is most important for a young horse, is to see you as the leader and obedient when you ask for him/her to move and to HALT. A slack rein and lots and lots and lots of transitions, walk-trot, trot-walk, and a halt with a verbal "Whoa", where you close and engage the bit, are the best foundational cues you can teach. Your green horse can WAIT on learning collection. There are many ways to train this, and everyone has their favorites.
I prefer to use secured logs or cavaletti to lunge over and teach the horse how to balance without the added baggage of a rider. This teaches collection without having to "explain" it to your horse. Others should chime in here and give their favorite methods.
I don't think anyone here would advocate side reins for a green rider to train collection to a green horse.
Good luck! =D


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Riding with side reins is very dangerous.
> Lunging with them correctly adjusted and using proper lunging technique is very beneficial for teaching the horse about the contact.
> I am not a fan of the pessoa systems, or any sliding reins, on green horses. For retrainers, they do have uses. For babies I follow the KISS (keep it simple silly) method - it's best not to get too fancy because you want the horse to understand things very basically.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes yes yes yes. 

And yes. 


Riding in side reins is a big no no. What is the point? Your hands should be good enough to remain somewhat quiet if you're riding a breaker. 
On the lunge however, absolutely. I'd get rid of the pessoa thing and just go to side reins. They are a brilliant aid for a young horse.
I got my 3 yr old back from the breakers back around Christmas time, and though he was happy to go forward, has a wonderful natural rhythm and great mouth, he was quite unbalanced and dropped through the left shoulder terribly. Popped an outside side rein on him and a running inside rein whilst in the roundyard, and immediately he straightened up, moved upright and stayed in beautiful balance. 
A few lunge sessions in side reins, and he was moving so much better under saddle and was far more confident to take a contact. 
I don't think there's any point in fluffing around with a breaker. Once they know stop, go and turn, and will move confidently forward into some kind of contact, you might as well start asking them to come a little rounder and get some lateral flexibility happening.
Side reins are hugely beneficial for that. 
Those who don't know how to use them, or have 'seen them used' tend to be the people who cry 'terrible gadget' and tell the world that their use creates backwards horses. Use them correctly, and they will be both yours and your horse's best friend for creating balance, straightness and contact in a young horse.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

OP what ended up happening? Did you talk to the TRAINER about it? As I recall you only spoke to a boarder who was telling you what the trainer would do, which isn't really fair to the trainer.

Just looking for an update.


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> OP what ended up happening? Did you talk to the TRAINER about it? As I recall you only spoke to a boarder who was telling you what the trainer would do, which isn't really fair to the trainer.
> 
> Just looking for an update.


Well, at this point if the trainer used the words "side reins" at all in reference to this horse then I'd probably be packing up. I do think that speaking directly to her is in everyone's best interests though, and I'm curious to see what happened as well.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

We don't know the trainer _did_ use the word, that's the point. Or maybe she said "it would be beneficial for her to use side reins" which was taken out of context. Who knows. No point, or fair, to run away without even knowing that, talk to the trainer.

I'm curious for an update either way


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Oh for heavens sake, sidereins are not a dirty word or taboo. How ridiculous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

Kayty said:


> Oh for heavens sake, sidereins are not a dirty word or taboo. How ridiculous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, they're not. Riding in them or using on a horse that green on the second lesson? Yeah, no.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Kayty said:


> Oh for heavens sake, sidereins are not a dirty word or taboo. How ridiculous.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely not. 'Side reins on a mounted horse' is a dirty word and so is 'side reins on a green horse'


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Which is what I have already said - bad idea to ride in them. However lunging a green horse in them is hugely beneficial if you know what you're doing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

OP said the trainer wanted her to ride in side reins....so I would conclude that if the trainer wants her to ride in side reins, she has no idea how to properly use them if she thinks that riding in them is appropriate. 

IME, green horses don't need side reins. I'll hook them on the bridle while lunging a green horse, just attached to the bit and wiggling it around some as the horse moves to get them used to a little movement there. 

As the correct use of side reins, what they were designed for - not appropriate until the horse is farther along in training and has learned a great deal about correct self carriage.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I was under the impression that the OP did not hear that direct from the instructors mouth?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

> We have another lesson at the end of this week, and the *boarder* who originally told me about the trainer *just informed me* that the trainer said I'd be using side reins during this lesson. (The trainer had previously suggested that I might try it alone, and on my own time, as I want to pay for a riding lesson, not a lunging lesson.) It sounded like I'd be riding with side reins, not lunging.


 I don't see anything wrong with the trainer's suggestion and as for riding in them during the lesson nothing was said, at least while this thread was active, from the _trainer_ about that. Therefore, while we can all agree that it's a bad idea, it was not necessarily the trainer's idea, or what the trainer meant, so it's not fair to jump on the trainer until we actually hear it "from the horses mouth!"


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## TurkishVan (Feb 11, 2013)

Yes, I talked to the trainer. The other boarder was correct- the trainer did indeed want me to ride in side reins. I told her no and backed out of the lesson. She didn't say much other than, "They won't hurt your horse."

Again, I don't use side reins because I don't have the experience necessary to safely use them. I took one lesson with this woman, and she didn't display hardly any riding knowledge to me, so I do not put a lot of faith in her experience with them either.

If you can tell me WHY you're using something, and HOW it's going to improve the horse, I will listen. But I will still make my own decision in the end. As it was, there was no "why" or "how" offered, so I didn't have to think much before declining.


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## TurkishVan (Feb 11, 2013)

Corporal said:


> OP, what is most important for a young horse, is to see you as the leader and obedient when you ask for him/her to move and to HALT. A slack rein and lots and lots and lots of transitions, walk-trot, trot-walk, and a halt with a verbal "Whoa", where you close and engage the bit, are the best foundational cues you can teach. Your green horse can WAIT on learning collection. There are many ways to train this, and everyone has their favorites.
> I prefer to use secured logs or cavaletti to lunge over and teach the horse how to balance without the added baggage of a rider. This teaches collection without having to "explain" it to your horse. Others should chime in here and give their favorite methods.
> I don't think anyone here would advocate side reins for a green rider to train collection to a green horse.
> Good luck! =D


 I should have explained that my mare is already trained to drive, so she does know her cues (her "whoa" is superb! knock on wood!), although we still have to associate some light whip aids with the leg to get her to go forward. But she's learning fast. The only reason I really started thinking about collection is because she seems like she's starting to get it on her own anyway. I'd like to encourage that without any sort of manipulation. So I do, and it seems to be working. 
She really didn't have much natural collection before this. When I see her "strut" around in the pasture now, she can really take my breath away. Again, it's only for a few strides, but she's getting it.  I really just like the idea of building up her muscles nice and slow. 

Although no one said anything on here, I probably should have noted that I do not have noisy hands. In fact, I've ridden with several people (including my last dressage instructor, that I loved), and they've all commented on my quiet, following hands. This is mainly because I'm very conscious of my hands, and because we focused on a well balanced seat and legs before I ever moved on to the upper half of my body.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Good on you for sticking to your guns!!

I hope you can find an instructor that suits your needs.

Happy ending for you, and the sanity of your horse ;-)


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

TurkishVan said:


> Yes, I talked to the trainer. The other boarder was correct- the trainer did indeed want me to ride in side reins. I told her no and backed out of the lesson. She didn't say much other than, *"They won't hurt your horse."*
> 
> Again, I don't use side reins because I don't have the experience necessary to safely use them. I took one lesson with this woman, and she didn't display hardly any riding knowledge to me, so I do not put a lot of faith in her experience with them either.
> 
> If you can tell me WHY you're using something, and HOW it's going to improve the horse, I will listen. But I will still make my own decision in the end. As it was, there was no "why" or "how" offered, so I didn't have to think much before declining.



*This chick is an idiot. May not hurt the horse I suppose, but can and has high probability of hurting YOU. *


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

TurkishVan said:


> Yes, I talked to the trainer. The other boarder was correct- the trainer did indeed want me to ride in side reins. I told her no and backed out of the lesson. She didn't say much other than, "They won't hurt your horse."
> 
> Again, I don't use side reins because I don't have the experience necessary to safely use them. I took one lesson with this woman, and she didn't display hardly any riding knowledge to me, so I do not put a lot of faith in her experience with them either.
> 
> If you can tell me WHY you're using something, and HOW it's going to improve the horse, I will listen. But I will still make my own decision in the end. As it was, there was no "why" or "how" offered, so I didn't have to think much before declining.


Sounds like you made the right decision. Sometimes no eyes is better than bad eyes... or in this case not even eyes, she was telling you what to do.

Shrug

Good luck looking for a new trainer, I'm sure you'll be fine on your own in the meantime.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Hope you find a new trainer. I would have some serious doubts about the experience level of anyone who suggested riding in side reins
For lunging - well the emphasis is definitely on the 'If the handler is experienced enough to know how to use them correctly'
Sadly many people that believe they are don't actually have a clue.


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## danicelia24 (Jul 16, 2013)

The first horse I ever worked with I was trained while under supervision and I rode in side reins with no problem and I even tought him to neck rein while using them I was also riding western pleasure but even so...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Side reins can be a useful tool if used correctly on the ground but are not a replacement for correct riding when you're in the saddle
If a trainer can't teach their students the basics of how to ride a horse into its bridle so they work in a nice outline then they really aren't worth paying.


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## mobilenaturaltrainer (Nov 28, 2013)

It is your horse!....I suggest you read this:

The damage done by side reins


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Oh good lord, "mr HP" rears his ugly head. 
Interestingly... His wife competes at FEI Dressage and has been seen to use "the dreaded side reins".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## picup436 (Nov 22, 2012)

Is this with your Friesian mare? The last thing I would ever use on a Friesian is side reins. I've worked with a number of Friesians, both pure bred and crosses and they all respond to side reins the same way. 

These horses have what I call a go-go-gadget neck, they can shorten their neck to a point where it feels like their heads are attached directly to their shoulders. Stick side reins on a Friesian and their neck just disappears, they hollow out and their hind legs end up in a different postcode than their front legs. You get "pretty" friesian knees, but everything else becomes ugly ugly ugly!!!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Kayty said:


> Oh good lord, "mr HP" rears his ugly head.
> Interestingly... His wife competes at FEI Dressage and has been seen to use "the dreaded side reins".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think the point being made by him (I could be wrong) is the damage that can be done by using them *incorrectly* - and I've seen more than enough of that in my lifetime to not argue with him on that one.
There are too many amateurs making it up as they go along because they can't be bothered to learn from someone who knows what they're doing


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## TurkishVan (Feb 11, 2013)

picup436 said:


> Is this with your Friesian mare? The last thing I would ever use on a Friesian is side reins. I've worked with a number of Friesians, both pure bred and crosses and they all respond to side reins the same way.
> 
> These horses have what I call a go-go-gadget neck, they can shorten their neck to a point where it feels like their heads are attached directly to their shoulders. Stick side reins on a Friesian and their neck just disappears, they hollow out and their hind legs end up in a different postcode than their front legs. You get "pretty" friesian knees, but everything else becomes ugly ugly ugly!!!


Yes, it was with my Friesian mare. 
"Go-go-gadget neck"! Hind legs ending up in a different postcode! LOL! :rofl:
Yes, I haven't seen too many Friesians ridden how I'd prefer to see them ridden. Most seem to just suck their head into their chest, and the rider just goes with it. Their neck position is why I'm so careful about the contact with my mare. It almost seems like Friesians would be easier to get behind the bit, due to that vertical neck.


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