# how to fix this?



## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Personally, I think you DO need to teach him a proper one rein stop, so that when you pick up a rein, he will stop, even if he does turn first. You have to teach this from a walk, then trot, etc... One rein stops are a really useful tool, especially for horses that tend to bolt. My project Appy this summer, was a bolter; if you even 'thought' canter, he would try too, even if I might have only been signaling for a trot; having taught him one rein stops, I was able to shut him down quickly, and we'd try again. I also did alot of circles, figure 8s, and serpentines with him, because simply going around an arena, can be boring for some horses; for him, it really helped him learn how to focus on me, because he never knew what was coming next! 

I think you've done well, so far, and unfortunately, you probably may actually have to ride his fits out; maybe longe him first, prior to each ride, so you know what kind of mood he is, and also so you know he is focused on you first. I do this, everytime prior to mounting up, especially with green horses. You set a much better stage for a good ride, if you have mentally prepared the horse for 'work', rather than simply mounting up and hoping for the best.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

Do you have a round pen? I would say start back there... Do ALOT of ground work and then cool him out on his back.. remind him that its to his advantage to keep you on his back. Also put in a few good rides in the round pen before you go back into the arena.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

When we first started riding, I did take him out and free lunge him in our round pen. However, since I ride three or four times a week, that quickly turned him round pen sour, and since I have a feeling he's developing arthritis, I don't want to stress his joints out further. He knows how to bend in order to one rein stop, but the problem is getting him to do it....when he took off on me the second time, I was actually trying to one rein stop him, or at the very least turn him into the fence. His response was to jerk his head in the opposite direction, stick his nose in the air, and go. He also does not like "weaving" or anything like that....we have poles for bending set up, and barrels also. He gets very ****y turning in full circles more than once or repetitively going left and right. He's not a fan of ground poles either. Basically, nice flat ground and straight lines are where he's best at.

Prior to this, I was trying to assemble a group at my barn to go out trail riding with, but now that's not an option. There are places on the trail that are long, wide open spaces, and I don't want him to take off on one of those spots, lol. But regardless, he's not the type of horse who likes new things....he's very set in his routine and he knows whats expected of him.

I have however considered going back to the round pen and re-teaching him trot/walk transitions, where he doesn't have to room to get up a good speed. Still, my concern is that he's not a baby anymore. He's got a great head on him for learning, but he's also very set in his ways. I have a feeling that when ever we re-approach the cantering gait, regardless of how well his mind is "on me", he'll have the same problem. So how can I change his thinking?


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## Rod (Aug 26, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> When we first started riding, I did take him out and free lunge him in our round pen. However, since I ride three or four times a week, that quickly turned him round pen sour, and since I have a feeling he's developing arthritis, I don't want to stress his joints out further.


This part of your post brings up two points for me. First why do you think he is "round pen sour"? And two, if you "have a feeling he's developing arthritis" I'd recommend having him looked at by a vet to determine his status. 

You also stated "He gets very ****y turning in full circles more than once or repetitively going left and right. He's not a fan of ground poles either. Basically, nice flat ground and straight lines are where he's best at."

Sounds to me like he only wants to do the 'easy' stuff. I'll bet that if things continue he will start to balk at that, too. I always think that if a horse is resistant in one area, he needs to do that thing more- until he does it willingly with a degree of competence. So-- If he gets ****y turning in circles, I'd turn him until he was good at it and all resistance was gone. Depending on the horse it could take anywhere from minutes to weeks to get it done. No one says horse training is easy (except those who don't know better). I admire you wanting to retrain a raced TB. I've trained some myself. Keep up the good work.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Rod said:


> This part of your post brings up two points for me. First why do you think he is "round pen sour"? And two, if you "have a feeling he's developing arthritis" I'd recommend having him looked at by a vet to determine his status.


I'm working on getting the money to get him x-rayed (500 dollars plus exam fee) to officially diagnose arthritis. 

To answer the first question, when we started out lunging, he knew exactly what I wanted from him without me really having to teach him. The only thing he didn't do was turn to the inside, so we taught him that. Towards the end of his round pen lunging sessions, I could only get two or three good circles out of him before he would periodically start throwing his chest up against portions of the rails, and then it became he wouldn't move from the round pen gate. He would just stand there, butting his head up against it. I could crack the whip right behind his butt and he would just turn one way and actually back up, not turn and go forward. He's the type of horse who doesn't like overly repetive things or he gets belligerant (but he doesn't like super new things either, they scare the crap out of him) I gave him a four month break, and when it started getting rainy I went back to round pen work and he was amazing.

My only problem with getting him to do the things he gets angry at is he's not the kind of horse to just stand there and swish his tail...he'll buck, rear, bolt, whatever....basically explode.I want to work with him and have as much hand in re-training him as I can, but if I'm just going to end up in a rodeo show, thats not good for either of us because I'll end up getting hurt, which will in turn mean he will get less riding time. We can circle barrels, and we can weave poles....but doing them four times in a row is when he starts making a fuss.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Double post,woops.....

So I talked to the trainer today and found out that its 25 dollars a session, and the session can last anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour, depending on the horse. The evaluation ride is free, and then from there we discuss what she (the trainer) sees, what my goals are, etc, etc. This makes me excited, I would much rather spend that 500 dollars on training him, if 500 dollars is needed, then on xrays that may be indeterminate.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well that much rather spend else where $500 may be an answer to some pain issues that could be causing him to bolt.. my mare did that and it was a saddle fitting issue. i think you need to check out all your options before saying its a behavior issue. my mare rode fine in that saddle for 3 months till i guess one day she had had enough of being pinched. i didnt know untill i had a fitter come look at it. same with the bit she had. she'd toss her head constantly she was in a dee ring.. put her in a french link loose ring and a fitting saddle and viola ! shes a great moving horse now. so i think you should have his bit, saddle and authritus checked. for racing that long i woulden't doubt it. and honestly theres no such think as round pen sour. he just dosent respect you or he just dosent want to do it . who ever told you re training a OTT tb was easy lied. ive worked with over 20 of them . . one is personally mine. not one of them was close to easy. 

i wish you the best of luck though.


--
edit

just looked at your photos of him and saw your riding him western. I think you should have the saddle checked relitivaley soon as most western saddles DON'T fit tb's . You have to find a good fit. its more than possible it could be pinching him.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Sound like that horse has your number. If it where physically possible he would be riding you around the arena. Don't make excuses and I wouldn't bother with the X-rays. Just spend some money on a good trainer that will teach you to ride and teach him to be ridden. Hopefully you have learned an important lesson about the kind of deal you get when you buy a "cheap" horse. I agree with Rod that your problems with him are only going to get worse. Contrary to popular belief most racehorses can change leads and gaits and are not unbroke dinks that can only run in a straight line. The horses are exercised every day by little men in tiny saddles, they can't be too rough or they certainly don't race very long. This horse has enough experience to call your bluff and you have let him get away with it. It doesn't sound to me like there is anything wrong that can't be solved with a some time with a GOOD trainer.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> The horses are exercised every day by little men in tiny saddles, they can't be too rough or they certainly don't race very long.


dont want to get off topic here but i have to disagree.... OTTT's are pretty high stung 90% of the time and only want to run . re-training them, esp one whos been on the track 9 years is going to be a very hard task as he's never done ANYTHING else but run an oval.... i've got 3 relatives who train and jockey at belmont and my best friend jockeys and we've trained a few who came off the track with bow's , chips after rehab of up to 7 months off.. EVERY horse is diffrent some come off the track sane but thats about 1 in every 100 maybe higher.. it's not easy. oh and a lot of those 'little men' just hang on believe it or not. not the same jockey always trains that rides the race. most of the time yes. not always though. just keep in mind its not a day in the park re training an ottt.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

the 500 dollars is for xrays for arthritis....they, if anything, would cause him to move slower, not suddenly decide to start running. We've checked his saddle fit before, its fine for him....again, that would cause him to explode moving into the trot, not going back down to a walk. I'm also going to call the chiro out, as I said in the OP, as soon as the holiday is over to see if she can diagnose anything. However, I doubt that's the problem. But to bp, I don't think his sanity is the problem, its his general attitude of a donkey.

Kevins, if he really had my number, I wouldn't be talking about getting back on him, I'd be talking about the quickest way to sell him. If people hadn't suggested I go to the ER, I would have taken him to the round pen and gotten back on him. He knows I'm just as stubborn as he is, and this is actually the first time I have come off of him in all of our fighting. I would like to know what excuses I'm making--I'm only going off of my experience with him. I admitted in the OP that I had planned on getting lessons with him, and I also admitted that I planned on talking to the resident Western trainer about rates, both of which I would think are completely responsible things to do. However, I don't think he needs anything specific, he just needs more real saddle time, and that was my point in the post--helpful suggestions, not criticisms.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

It sounds like you've covered a lot of bases, but I think there are still alot of holes in your basic training here. You are giving him an awful lot of excuses that would suit a human for disrepectful behavior. I would probably fall back to groundwork, like someone else mentioned. If someone brought me this horse for training, I definately wouldn't jump on his back till I found out what was making him tick and eventually explode. There are many little things jumping out here, from his behavior in the round pen to how he reacts to being tied up and his inability to adapt. Sure, physical issues could contribute to his intensified defensive behaviors. I don't think its a matter of "teaching him a lesson". Horses tell you exactly whats wrong before you get on their back. You are interpreting everything that he's doing in your language. It says something completely different if you look at it in his.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

FlitterBug said:


> It sounds like you've covered a lot of bases, but I think there are still alot of holes in your basic training here. You are giving him an awful lot of excuses that would suit a human for disrepectful behavior. I would probably fall back to groundwork, like someone else mentioned. If someone brought me this horse for training, I definately wouldn't jump on his back till I found out what was making him tick and eventually explode. There are many little things jumping out here, from his behavior in the round pen to how he reacts to being tied up and his inability to adapt. Sure, physical issues could contribute to his intensified defensive behaviors. I don't think its a matter of "teaching him a lesson". Horses tell you exactly whats wrong before you get on their back. You are interpreting everything that he's doing in your language. It says something completely different if you look at it in his.



Just to cover my bases, lol he does cross tie perfectly. He just doesn't single tie very well, as he is very fidgety, and smart enough to let himself loose, lol. I'd imagine that he was never single tied on the track, he was always either held or cross tied.

I totally agree--he's basically telling me that he's never done this (i.e. regular riding with a person sitting on his back) before, and he doesn't like it anymore. I know that he knows how to walk, trot, canter, and gallop and transition to those gaits in a relatively smooth fashion, he knows how to lead, yield his hindquarters, and forequarters, back, turn left and right, etc. etc.....the problem is not the groundwork, as he does these things perfectly when asked...its getting him to re-associate these things with his new life, not his old one on the track. Thats his problem and essentially why he explodes, because that's exactly what he was trained to do, so he thinks its right. Like I said in the OP, I need to change his thinking, not just change his actions. 

Ironically, its his actions that are right, but his motivation is wrong. For the last six months, instead of wiping his slate clean, which is what I need to do, I've been trying to build his new skills on top of the old ones....basically like putting an American plug into a European socket. You can jam it in there and it might work, but in this case you're probably just going to get electrocuted.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> Kevins, if he really had my number, I wouldn't be talking about getting back on him, I'd be talking about the quickest way to sell him. If people hadn't suggested I go to the ER, I would have taken him to the round pen and gotten back on him. He knows I'm just as stubborn as he is, and this is actually the first time I have come off of him in all of our fighting. I would like to know what excuses I'm making.


First I don't have a dog in this fight so I am not trying to start a fight or run you down. It's not a matter of how stubborn you are, it's a matter of how well you present what you want your horse to do. I think it's fair to say that you are not doing that very well from your horses point of view. 

As far as the excuses you are making, you have suggested that it may be arthritis. You have tried saddle fit as an excuse and you mentioned in your last post that you will be having the chiro out ASAP. Those are the excuses that I was refering to. The problem, in my opinion, is a training issue and that is where I would spend my time and money. If you would like to spend your money elsewhere then I wish you luck.


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

I agree with Kevin. If training a horse was easy then most horses would be well trained. Unfortunately most are not.

It is a passion with long hours low pay and a high chance for injury.

Find a good one and give them at least 90 days.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

^Well then thats my bad. I do think he may be developing arthritis, but that has noting to do with this incident here--that has to do with how I approach his training as far as excessive lunging/round penning goes, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. As for the chiro, I have one visit left in the package I purchased, so why not use it now and cover all of my bases. I think I said it somewhere up there, but I'm 99% sure he's just being himself and it has nothing to do with pain. I did not mention the saddle fit as an excuse, someone else mentioned it since they saw I ride Western....I think it was barnprincess. I know for a fact that his saddle fits him fine, other wise his exploding would have happened long before now.

My trouble seems to be is that you were quick to rip me apart, but offered no suggestion as to how to fix it. Traditional fixes like one-rein stops are just going to be a band-aid in this case, since he doesn't know that he's doing wrong. I want to know how I can basically re-train him from something he's done his whole life.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

So what you are asking for is " How to fix a horse in 500 words or less".


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Yes and no...obviously I know there's no black and white concrete way to re-train a horse, but I figure why not ask here? There are plenty of people more skilled than me who might have some insight on the situation. The trainer I'm going with has experience breaking and starting babies and fixing problem horses, but not with re-training one, or at least not to this degree. So essentially, she can ride out his fits, but we kind of have to just guess at how to get him to think differently.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> I know for a fact that his saddle fits him fine, other wise *his exploding would have happened long before now*.


if you read what i said thats not true. . . my hrose rode in an ill fitting saddle for THREE MONTHS without incident. untill she had enough of being pinched and exploded into a bronco. three times she did this untill i realized hey idiot somethings wrong. and sure enough her saddle was sqeezing and pinching her shoulder movment as most ill fitting saddles do. look up on you tube how to make sure. and unless you had a fitter look you cant be 'know for a fact' because i said that too untill i had a professional come.



> My trouble seems to be is that you were quick to rip me apart, but offered no suggestion as to how to fix it. Traditional fixes like one-rein stops are just going to be a band-aid in this case, since he doesn't know that he's doing wrong. I want to know how I can basically re-train him from something he's done his whole life.


 
as ive worked with over 20 OTT tbs i dont suggest them to people who have not the slightest clue in re training them and starting over. most ott tbs need a down time to be a horse. we turned ours out for 2 - 6 months THEN started from ground work up. thats how you do it the right way. if you dont know how to fix it i suggest you get off the board and call a REAL trainer or some one who actually knows what they are doing.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Chances are that he is reverting to old behavior because he doesn't understand what you are doing. When a horse reaches a point in confusion, they revert to what they know will work to get the pressure to go away. This is how serious buckers continue their habit and serious bolters continue theirs. I am a firm believer that a truely "caught" horse doesn't need to be wearing a halter and a truely "tied" horse doesn't actually need to be tied to anything. I do halter and tie my horses, but what you are missing is the frame of mind behind the exercises as we see them. Without the mind, everything else will be that more challenging. Its not a matter of riding out his fits, but figuring out what triggers them and how to fix that. At the same time, you would need to reshape his coping mechanism so that he could make his confusion known without putting you in danger. Everyone is telling you to go back to the ground because that is where you establish the leadership and respect that you need to re-train this horse. Holes in foundation training can go unseen for quite some time to the average person before they literally knock you on your butt. Thats what this is, its a hole, to fix what you are seeing, you have to fill the hole. 
I personally don't understand how someone can start horses and fix problem horses without knowing how to re-train a horse. I know plenty of people that can start them from scratch, but can't undo something that has already been screwed up. But if someone is claiming to fix problems, I personally would want someone with more than a velcro butt.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> as ive worked with over 20 OTT tbs i dont suggest them to people who have not the slightest clue in re training them and starting over. most ott tbs need a down time to be a horse. we turned ours out for 2 - 6 months THEN started from ground work up. thats how you do it the right way. if you dont know how to fix it i suggest you get off the board and call a REAL trainer or some one who actually knows what they are doing.


I have a feeling we may not agree on a whole lot but I do agree with this^^^.

If YOUR trainer doesn't have the experience then find one that does. Knowing the reason behind the behavior isn't always important. Sometimes you just need to show them an easier way and the horse will leave the old behavior behind.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

*Beware: a novel is ahead! *

*My husband paced tbs at Remington Park, in OKC for 6 years. Most tbs are mild dolls on the ground. It's only when they're mounted that they know they're going to work. Here is what I KNOW as fact: Racehorses aren't taught anything but forward motion by their trainers. That being said, they WON'T know how to be a riding horse. *



barnprincess said:


> dont want to get off topic here but i have to disagree.... OTTT's are pretty high stung 90% of the time and only want to run.* Most rh's period know when it's time to race, and it's then that they get most worked up. When my husband was galloping them, sometimes he had to whip the crud out of them to get them to run. But there are very many that are pretty hyper with a rider. Then there are some that have the on/off button.* re-training them, esp one whos been on the track 9 years is going to be a very hard task as he's never done ANYTHING else but run an oval.... *This is very true. Imagine moving to another culture and having to learn a new language without a translator. It's going to take some time. *i've got 3 relatives who train and jockey at belmont and my best friend jockeys and we've trained a few who came off the track with bow's , chips after rehab of up to 7 months off.. EVERY horse is diffrent some come off the track sane but thats about 1 in every 100 maybe higher.. *I don't think the number is THAT slim, as the majority of the professional barrel horses are OTTBs. *it's not easy. oh and a lot of those 'little men' just hang on believe it or not. *It's NOT easy, imagine standing on the sides of the seat of your saddle on a running MACH 1 horse. And a lot of the time that is spent on their backs outside of a race is by people the trainers direct, and not an actual trainer. It is up to the trainer to decide who works the horses and to design their individual workouts depending on what each horse needs/lacks. My husband is not a "Little man." He's short, but has weighed 160lbs since high school. The jockeys and their equipment must be under 115lbs when racing, but to build strength and endurance, heavier riders are put on them to pace and train. *not the same jockey always trains that rides the race. most of the time yes. not always though.* Usually not the case. There are trainers, and there are jockeys. Trainers are there to "train" the horse. Basically, they oversee the workout process and make sure the horse is fed and supplemented correctly, they handle the business end, the sales, etc. Jockeys are mostly hired out by the trainers.* just keep in mind its not a day in the park re training an ottt.


*This horse you have may or may not be in that hyper percentage.*

*Here's what my husband gave me as background, and what he has suggested.*

*For background, the typical day for a racehorse is this:*

*Fed first thing AM in a 12x12 stall*
*He is put on a walker for 30mins*
*Brought out, rode hard (ONLY ON THE LEFT LEAD)for at least an hour*
*back on the walker for 30mins*
*put back in the 12x12 stall*
*Fed again at night.*

*This is what your horse has lived and breathed for all those years. My husband said, "If that was MY horse, he would NEVER see a walker, and he would NEVER see a stall. He should be turned out in a run, and if at all possible, in the arena I'm going to be riding him in so he can see that it's not a track, and get comfortable with the boundaries. He's gonna have ground work, every day, and I wouldn't even get on his back until his transitions are keen. I want him to know "Whoa." and "back." because they don't learn this. All they learn is "GO STRAIGHT!" They don't learn stop, they don't learn turn, they don't learn back, they don't learn leg cues. Those are all things that need to be approached as I would on a colt that doesn't know anything. He has only been worked on that left lead, and when the jockey rides around the corners, the horse does not know to turn, the jockey has a constant pressure in that horses mouth and turns his nose in for him."*

*He put both his fists together, directly in front of him and says, "Look, this is all the jockey has to do to crank his face enough to get around the bend." and he rocked his left fist forward, enough to shorten the left rein. He said he would work on getting the horse light in the face, getting him to flex left and right so well he thinks you're stupid for making him do it. Since he's used to the constant pressure in his mouth, "You may want to put a twisted wire or a small shank bit in his mouth so he learns that it's there as a learning tool, and not to brace against. The best bet would be to ride him in the roundpen, or in a really small pen so he can get used to the boundaries you set, and learn to respond to your cues. Whatever you do, you do NOT want to expose him to anything he's associated with running, if anything, you want to deter him from it. Also, you might work him in a long, narrow pen, like an alley, and try my WTC to the middle, then work on his transitioning down from CTW. He will learn that he has to stop at the end, and it will be narrow enough that he won't be able to turn and bolt." *

*Whatever you do, try to keep him from his old routine. Work him as slow and patiently as you can. If you get to where he gets away with a mistake, even once, he's going to think he's doing the right thing, and he'll keep doing it. If you hit a bump in the road, don't be discouraged, just do something you know he's good at, and end your session confidently. If you have any other questions, please, feel free to ask!*

*PS.*
*Consider longing before a ride to be a warm up for a race, as that's what he's learned all these years. OTTBs should longe after you ride, if you're going to. Most times, the more you run and work a TB, the more endurance he's going to build. So teach him to go slow, and that it's ok to just "ride."*


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> if you read what i said thats not true. . . my hrose rode in an ill fitting saddle for THREE MONTHS without incident. untill she had enough of being pinched and exploded into a bronco. three times she did this untill i realized hey idiot somethings wrong. and sure enough her saddle was sqeezing and pinching her shoulder movment as most ill fitting saddles do. look up on you tube how to make sure. and unless you had a fitter look you cant be 'know for a fact' because i said that too untill i had a professional come.


We've done the "chalking" process and whatnot...the only problems were his withers, as they're enormous (like most TBs) so I also use one of those English half-pads under the regular western one. I can almost fit both of my hands stacked on top of each other in between the pommel and his withers, and there's light coming from the back when he drops his head.






barnprincess said:


> as ive worked with over 20 OTT tbs i dont suggest them to people who have not the slightest clue in re training them and starting over. most ott tbs need a down time to be a horse. we turned ours out for 2 - 6 months THEN started from ground work up. thats how you do it the right way. if you dont know how to fix it i suggest you get off the board and call a REAL trainer or some one who actually knows what they are doing.


He was out to pasture for a whole year before I bought him and started working with him. I say thats shes never re-trained a horse to this degree because, although she's retrained horses, its been to the effect of "a show jumper to a barrel horse" or something like that....something with basic knowledge of how to actually be ridden. 

In the round pen, he's excellent. It takes him two minutes and hes a different horse, he'll follow me around, stop and go based on my boy language, all of that jazz. *So what would be the next step up after that, other than riding?* BP, since you've done this so many other times, your advice would be what I'm looking for....I want to be as big of a part in re-training him as possible, but everyone just seems to want to tell me "leave it to the professionals". Well those people had to start somewhere, its not like you're born with this knowledge. So suggestions of how to do this, how to "fill the hole" are what I'm looking for.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Just as a random edit, possibly for future reference, whatever.....

I have his race records. They came complete with notes made my the trainers, and most of them said that he started out strong, and then gave up towards the end, which is why he didn't win. I've seen some of his race tapes from his later years, and that seems to be true. He may not have an on/off button, but I don't think that he was the "straining at the bit" type either.

I have been considering going back to round pen riding until I can get him properly transitioning again, but I never considered working in a chute....I always assumed that would get him going. We do have one on the barn property (our arena is made for rodeo events) so I'll definitely have to try that at some point.

I ride him in a hackamore, he absolutely abhors any kind of bit in his mouth, as his mouth is actually kind of small. He does work very well in that, and its taught him to bend pretty efficiently also....however, when he gets running (as I found out a little too late) he still stiffens/ braces his neck.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> and there's light coming from the back when he drops his head.


that means its pitching in the back and means it DOES NOT fit.

i would do tons and tons of ground work. keep joining up with him , keep him thinking keep working on respect and transitions with your voice. untill you have all that perfect i woulden't ride him . work him in the arena free lunge , or on a lunge let him see where your going to ride him and that it's not a track.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I believe I said this in an earlier post that I really would rather not over-lunge him.... too much stress on his joints that have already been stressed out enough. Plus our round pen is small, I think something like 50 feet. It could be less. Here's a link to the picture....that pole in the center isn't there anymore, but you can see that its not very big. 
http://www.doveroaks.com/images/tour/f13.html

At a minimum, I was riding him three times a week...I've let up on that and he's since gotten fat, but I prefer to work in the saddle rather than on the ground with him.

Maybe I should take some pictures of saddle fit then and post it up here. They told me once when it looked a little funny (when I went out and bought the half pad) so I would assume the people at my barn would show the same courtesy again if it was really that wrong. I still don't know how an ill fitting saddle would make him speed up suddenly when I asked him to slow down, however. He's had no problems planting his feet when something was wrong before.

On another note....we've been working for six months. At what point would I stop the ground work? He does transition very well with my voice alone, but its not perfect....its perfect when I can be on his back and use my seat to clue him in.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> I ride him in a hackamore, he absolutely abhors any kind of bit in his mouth, as his mouth is actually kind of small. He does work very well in that, and its taught him to bend pretty efficiently also....however, when he gets running (as I found out a little too late) he still stiffens/ braces his neck.


Are you refering to a bosal hackamore or a mechanical hackamore? He obviously can wear a snaffle and has for 7 1/2 years of his life so he should deffinately be used to it. You should work on bending more. Learn how to do a one rein stop CORRECTLY and get him breaking at the poll. Use light steady pressure and release as soon as he gives even a tiny bit. Start this standing still and work up to going at a walk. When you can get and hold vertical flexion for a few strides then do it at the trot and so on. You have to get him soft in the face and soft through the body. I would bet that you can't yield his hindquarters. This is a must. Your horse also needs to back with lightness and cadence. You also do this with light steady pressure and a leg cue(squeezing).


1. Yield the hindquarters both directions with ease.

2. Ask for and maintain vertical flexion at all gaits.

3. Back with lightness and cadence.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm talking about one of the english hackamores.

Korsteel English Hackamore Weatherbeeta Inc (Equine - Horse Tack Supplies - Bits - Working)

Wearing a bit for racing might as well not be wearing a bit at all....all they do is blow past it. He is much more willing as far as bending, turning, and stopping goes in the hackamore than in the bit. I can hold my reins in one hand and squeeze, and he'll stop. I bought a plain d-ring and ditched it after almost four months of struggling to get him to work in it. 

He actually backs better than he walks forward sometimes. I spent something like two weeks straight breaking him of his gate sourness by backing up (he wouldn't turn left or right, so I'd back him up ten steps and ask him to turn again. If he didn't turn then, I'd back him up some more) When he doesn't feel like going forward while free lunging, he'll walk backwards. Thats actually pretty funny to see. How I cue is I move my seat/weight forward, and squeeze my reins in my hand ( creates light pressure on his nose ) and tell him to back. The difference between the "stopping" and the "backing" cue are that my hands are lower, in between my belly button and my hips, whereas for a stop, my hands are in front of the pommel/horn. To him, leg pressure means "forward", or "faster".

On the ground, he bends very nicely (with the hackamore on), but in the saddle he does have some trouble to the left....he'll turn pretty good, but thats with my left leg pressure and right rein on his neck. How can I get him to bend around without food, which is what people suggest to me? Usually he just assumes I'm trying to back him and starts moving.

I guess pictures AND video are in order, although they might have to wait until my tailbone is a little less sore.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I know that I am probably treading where I have no business going as I have never tried to re-train an ex-race horse, I have ridden steeplechasers though and that was hard work.

I was reading your post and I have a couple of questions. You say that your horse is excellent with groundwork and that you have achieved everything that needs to be achieved. I am wondering if this is quite true, you see I am coming at this as a person who has been in a very similar situation. You say that your horse is excellent at backing, so good in fact that he does it to avoid other exercises. You can have a horse that does the required things on the ground but that does not neccessarily mean that they are well schooled. I have come to understand that it is not just the movement of an exercise but MORE IMPORTANTLY the cessation of an exercise. It is very hard to explain what I mean. For example if you want your horse to move from a feel, well anyone can give a horse a push and get them moving, the question is does your horse stop at the point that you want it to stop? If you want to circle the hind quarters of your horse do his front feet stay almost still or does your horse walk forward while doing the exercise? If he is walking forward in order to circle his hind quarters he is not doing it correctly - though still doing the excersize - on his terms. You also said that he assumes that you are are trying to back him and starts moving. I know that this is from the saddle but if you had a clear backing signal on the ground that would transfer to under saddle. You want to use as close as possible the same signals on the ground as you do for riding so it translates easily.

I am just wondering if you have achieved everything on the ground that needs to be achieved.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I think I understand what you're saying....moving his hindquarters, no, he does stay perfectly still with his fronts. Moving his _forequarters _however is where he has trouble....if I remember correctly its on his left side also. On his right, he can cross his legs over and give me an excellent front turn around/side pass, but he only does it sometimes to the left. The cues can be exactly the same (I actually made sure of it when I tried to film him not doing it one day) and he just seems stiff in the left shoulder/neck area. He only does the backing to the left, I think because he can't naturally bend the way he can to the right. 

When we're bending from the ground, I stand underneath his neck (I actually fit there, lol) with the opposite hand of the way I want to bend on his face. I do a gentle push/pressure, and it usually takes him three times to reach all the way back on the right. On the left side, he stiffens up and jerks his head away a lot more, so we work a lot slower....A lot of times I end up poking him in the place where his shoulder and his neck meet "no, bend _here_" In the saddle I make sure to use zero leg pressure and bring the rein I want him to bend into around slowly, with complete slack in the other side (I use the thick trail reins). Should I start doing it against a fence so he has nowhere to go (although he'll probably be cheeky and start moving forward)?


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

A good way to get a lateral bend in head and kneck is to stand at the horses withers. Using the bridle, pull back and slightly up on the rein on the same side you are on. The aim is to get your hand resting on the horses withers. It is a gentle excersize that gives a good stretch. If the horse keeps circling go with it, keep the pressure on that rein until he stops moving and there is a release of pressure on the rein you are holding once you get a soft feel let go. This may be a good excersize for his left side which sounds like what is causing all the problems. Also this excersize is a great representation of the one rein halt - from the ground.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> I still don't know how an ill fitting saddle would make him speed up suddenly when I asked him to slow down, however. He's had no problems planting his feet when something was wrong before.
> 
> *It's not solely that the saddle doesn't fit, it's heavier, bulkier, and resists more freedom of movement, so there's more confusion, and another pressure he's trying to respond to. You know what he associates you pulling back on his face with? That as soon as you drop slack to him, it's time to go. So he will get excited because he is anticipating that you're trying to hold him up so he can have that extra burst of speed. RTBs can work superb on the ground, but are a mess under saddle because of the way they have been jockeyed and handled. Even after a race is over, you can see that the jockeys don't actually get the horses stopped, the horses have to stop on their own, and he has been taught to brace on the pressure on his face and bolt once that pressure is released.*
> 
> ...





justsambam08 said:


> I'm talking about one of the english hackamores.
> 
> Korsteel English Hackamore Weatherbeeta Inc (Equine - Horse Tack Supplies - Bits - Working)
> 
> ...





justsambam08 said:


> I think I understand what you're saying....moving his hindquarters, no, he does stay perfectly still with his fronts. Moving his _forequarters _however is where he has trouble....if I remember correctly its on his left side also. On his right, he can cross his legs over and give me an excellent front turn around/side pass, but he only does it sometimes to the left. The cues can be exactly the same (I actually made sure of it when I tried to film him not doing it one day) and he just seems stiff in the left shoulder/neck area. He only does the backing to the left, I think because he can't naturally bend the way he can to the right.
> 
> *Remember, he's only been worked forward, and on the left lead. That's ALL he's ever been taught. If he's learning the right from you fine, you'll need to correct the work to the left. He's not going to be able to reason that "Oh, she wants me to do the same thing over here!" You'll have to figure out a way to get what you want, and award him when he does it, even if he does it wrong, just so he understands, "Wow... ok, that's all she wanted, I can do this..." Then you can work on refining him. And when you said you put your weight forward when you're trying to back him, the same when you're trying to get him to turn, get OFF that shoulder. It makes it so hard for him to pick it up and move when he has that pressure there that wasn't there when he was just walking around... he doesn't understand the movement yet, let alone your riding style or cues. So what you'll want to do is make sure he learns the movement BEFORE he learns the cue.*
> 
> When we're bending from the ground, I stand underneath his neck (I actually fit there, lol) with the opposite hand of the way I want to bend on his face. I do a gentle push/pressure, and it usually takes him three times to reach all the way back on the right. On the left side, he stiffens up and jerks his head away a lot more, so we work a lot slower....A lot of times I end up poking him in the place where his shoulder and his neck meet "no, bend _here_" In the saddle I make sure to use zero leg pressure and bring the rein I want him to bend into around slowly, with complete slack in the other side (I use the thick trail reins). Should I start doing it against a fence so he has nowhere to go (although he'll probably be cheeky and start moving forward)?


*When you're standing in front of him, make sure that you're using the reins EXACTLY like you would on his back. Can you find a partner to stand on the ground and help you? *

*Are you allowed to ride bareback? If he transitions good when he's longeing, have a friend longe him, and you ride. This way he can associate the same cues on the ground with the ones you're giving on his back, without the saddle interfering.*

*Have you tried ground driving him? Do you have access to 2 longe lines? I would suggest if you can't ground drive him, to yes, try it against the fence, but be sure that you're always bending him INTO the fence, that way if he steps out, he's not going to pinch your leg! *


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

It's too much to quote, so I'll just answer everything here.....

His saddle is synthetic (looks like leather) with almost no skirt and its an trail endurance saddle, so its made to be lighter....if I remember correctly, it weighs 17 or 18 pounds, not much more than an English saddle weighs. Thats more than a racing saddle weighs, but I've always ridden Western. I wouldn't say that he associates a slack in the reins with "going faster"--its actually the exact opposite. Constant pressure either on his mouth or his face is what drives them forward. I've also trotted him on a loose rein before, although it wasn't very smooth, thats just a TB for you, but he's never offered to move out of a trot on a loose rein. The "whoa" you described is what I do--forgive me, I was just describing the rein position since thats what we were talking about. Leaning my weight forward is only for backing.

*Also, let me say that previously he has "taken off" on me, but I know the cause there--his saddle had slipped back and so it was uncomfortable for him to trot, and when I asked him to anyway (I didn't realize it, it was only an inch or two) he blew up by bucking and then taking off. I was able to stop him, again from either a fast canter or a gallop, with the hackamore, and my seat, and my voice. I think if I had stayed on this time, I would have been able to bring him back, but I wasn't expecting him to do that at all, and so I didn't have time to balance myself properly. We have ridden twice in between that incident and this incident, with trotting and walking, and there were no incidences in those rides.*

I wouldn't ever want to use a gag bit or a severe bit like that on him--I don't have the experience with harsh bits like that in order for them to be really effective, and I don't think they're really needed to teach him what I want to do. He's learned just fine thus far about stopping and going, and we have the curb chain tight enough to keep it from slipping off of his nose and to keep him of evading the pressure of the left and right shanks, if he were to ever tuck his nose in. As far as his focus goes, its ALWAYS on me, he recognizes that I'm the rider and I know whats going on, otherwise I would have never moved him up from a walk to begin with.

I use my left leg because thats what I've always done, and he turns a lot tighter than if I use my outside leg. With the outside, its more of a "meander over gradually"....using my inside heel, I get the "oh, you want this way!" reaction and an actual turn. He already knows how to neck rein, he learned it in the same day as we started with the hackamore. He already understands the "kick to turn" business if he's stopped (like I want to turn around in a corner) except, like the regular turning, I use my inside leg because he seems to bend around it to turn instead of sidepass the way he does with my outside leg.

From my research, race horses know BOTH leads, and he actually is reluctant to pick up his left lead--he much prefers the right (with the rail/round pen on his left side). He'll pick up a trot on his left lead, I believe, but on a canter its almost impossible to get it. The reason I stand in front of him is because my hand is on the other side--kind of like holding his head to put the bridle on. If I stand on the side of him, he turns to face me.

I have also considered ground driving him, I was actually looking at getting a surcingle and driving reins last night. As for the riding bareback, I could, but I don't think I'd want to. His withers are awful and bony. Since I ride Western and not English, I would think it would be better to just get him accustomed to feeling the cues with the saddle on, rather than being able to feel my every move and then suddenly not at all.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> Yes and no...obviously I know there's no black and white concrete way to re-train a horse, but I figure why not ask here? There are plenty of people more skilled than me who might have some insight on the situation. The trainer I'm going with has experience breaking and starting babies and fixing problem horses, but not with re-training one, or at least not to this degree. So essentially, she can ride out his fits, but we kind of have to just guess at how to get him to think differently.


But see, we have given you ideas, and you draw out long responses as to why those ideas won't work. 

My mare was supposedly unrideable, for who knows how long, but I've worked with her for 4 months, and she IS rideable. It didn't take me long to figure out that she needed mainly a consistent and confident handler, more so than actual training, although even though she was supposedly ridden a while back, she still is what I would consider a 'green' horse. I spend more time on the ground with any horse I train, than I do in the saddle, and this has helped my mare emmensely. Ground work should never stop, even when a horse is what I would consider well trained. 

I think that while you do need to get the physical 'issues' addressed, you need to step back, find those holes, and help him become a better adjusted horse, even if it means not riding for a while. Any horse should be able to tie on a single pole, so start there; teach him how to ground tie, then start simply looping the lead through a ring on the single tie post. When he gets impatient, then start putting his antzy butt to work. Yes, he may be a TB, and thoroughbreds can be high strung, but that is no excuse for him NOT to learn some patience. He shouldn't have to be cross tied in order for you to work with him, because what if he one day decides he don't want to be tied that way either? You need to start filling in holes, and it will take a while, and tons of patience. Don't just address the riding issues, when there are other impatient horse issues there as well. And when you do get on and ride him, DO everything with him, NOT just things you think he will tolerate; a well trained horse is one who will try for his owner, regardless of whether he 'wants' to or not. Don't just settle for what he'll give you, or you'll never advance with him; he will stay a 'green broke' horse for the rest of his life.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

^^ I've accepted most of the ideas that others have given me-- the only things that I won't do are put a bit in his mouth, or spend unneccessary time going over things that he already knows, like beating the simple processes of backing up and lateral movements into his head. I do know that he needs work on his bending to the left, and bending in general in the saddle, and we are working on it--can't do much more than that. I prefer working with him in the saddle because that's where most of his lessons are going to be learned--he was already broken with ground work, so a brush up is all that he needs.

I seem to either have the problem of not picking the right words in my OP's, or people must just get to the end of posts and not really read the questions, because, as I said to kevinshorses, typical things like doing one rein stops or riding it out to correct him aren't going to work, _because he doesn't know that what he's doing is wrong_. That's all he's done thus far in his life, so why would it be wrong? I need to change his thought process and the "misbehavior" should go away. A one-rein stop is a useful tool, but only for horses who are taught to stay in one single gait until they are cued otherwise. We're working on that, something else that can best be done in the saddle.

I think you're mistaking fidgety for not being able to single-tie.....he'll single tie, and stand very well single-tied, as long as he's alone and someone is watching him. As soon as another horse shows up, or I go to put the saddle back in the tack room, he's untying himself and off to annoy the neighbor horse. I am also working on teaching him to ground tie, since thats something that if I ever do fall off again, will (hopefully) keep me from getting another hoof print-shaped bruise.

The ground driving is actually an excellent idea--I've looked into getting the equipment before, but have never had the money to do it. My reluctance to stay on the ground stems from the fact that there isn't much else to do with him except work him under saddle--our round pen is small, and although I can do basic teaching in it, real riding can only be done in the arena, which is huge.

Ironically, everyone tells me that Ice is unrideable when I know that he just needs to be brought back to the sane horse world. He also needs someone who knows what they're doing in the saddle--he gets nervous and tense just being around unsure people. I've gotten we'll say four months of solid good riding out of him, and until the cold weather started I never had a problem, and even now he still respects me on the ground in a totally separate way than he does the barn staff whom he sees every day. I know that eventually that relationship will translate up into the saddle, but that takes time, and its certainly not going to be six months.

I "settle" for what he's given me because, although I'm sure he wasn't abused, or at least not in the sense we think of, he's never had a consistant owner before, or even a consistent rider who demands the kind of respect I am...they just work with/around his issues and move on. When he's ready to give more, I'll ask for it.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> I use my left leg because thats what I've always done, and he turns a lot tighter than if I use my outside leg. With the outside, its more of a "meander over gradually"....using my inside heel, I get the "oh, you want this way!" reaction and an actual turn. He already knows how to neck rein, he learned it in the same day as we started with the hackamore. He already understands the "kick to turn" business if he's stopped (like I want to turn around in a corner) except, like the regular turning, I use my inside leg because he seems to bend around it to turn instead of sidepass the way he does with my outside leg.
> 
> .


Just because it's what you have always done doesn't mean it's right. Neck reining is not generally learned in one day so I would say he really doesn't know how to neck rein. You really have disregarded all the advice that you have been given and most of it has been pretty good advice. From your posts I feel pretty confident saying you need to send that horse to a trainer then take some riding lessons. *Let go of your pride, open your mind and learn something.*


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

^That was also in my first post....I KNOW that he needs to be worked on, and that is going to happen as soon as I can talk to her, but I want to have as much to do with it as I can. The trainer I have has never worked with an off the track horse before....OTTB's are not "greenies", they are trained very well for one specific thing, so treating him like he's never been asked to back up or step away before is just time-wasting for me and for him. I work on what needs to be worked on, which in this case are his bending, refining his cues, and sacking him out. I can only "fill in the holes" I can see, and those would be the ones I'm working on.

If something works, why switch to something that doesn't? I know that its "inside rein, outside leg" but if he responds to my inside heel, and he doesn't respond to the outside one, its not like the earth will fall down around us. When I lay my rein up on his neck, he starts heading in the direction I want him to, I would consider that "neck reining".

I'm much more open to suggestions when they don't come with lengthy lectures attached. Advice is always nice, but not when your post doesn't even address the original question.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

*Ok, well, I sat and talked to my husband for three hours now, talking about how YOU can help YOUR horse. I'm actually quite offended that you aren't interested in the help I am offering you, let alone to make a comment that you didn't ask for a lengthy lecture. If you didn't want a lecture, maybe you shouldn't have asked the question in the first place. Now, I have wasted three blessed hours with my family to help someone that doesn't really want my help. Man, that makes ME feel GRRRRREAT!*

*Since you're not capable of getting another trainer that HAS worked with OTTBs, or capable of heeding advice of a trainer of OTTBs, I can safely assume that you're one of those people that makes pasture pets out of horses that don't know what you're asking them, and they're the ones that end up selling cheap, going to auction, and eventually end up being dragged out of horrible living conditions. If the horse has a problem, you correct it. Right then and there. You don't just "Let him do it because he does it better this way." You do it correctly so that the next person who tries to work him, or buys him from you doesn't have to re-teach him all the bad re-teaching you've already done. That poor horse. Find him a different trainer, or find him a different home.*


justsambam08 said:


> ^That was also in my first post....I KNOW that he needs to be worked on, and that is going to happen as soon as I can talk to her, but I want to have as much to do with it as I can. The trainer I have has never worked with an off the track horse before....OTTB's are not "greenies", they are trained very well for one specific thing, so treating him like he's never been asked to back up or step away before is just time-wasting for me and for him. *It is NOT a waste of time making sure the basics are covered correctly. I certainly would not hook up a riding horse to a cart and expect him to know what I want just because he already knows SOME KIND of cues...* I work on what needs to be worked on, which in this case are his bending, refining his cues, and sacking him out. I can only "fill in the holes" I can see, and those would be the ones I'm working on. *If you already "know" what needs to be worked on, why would you ask the question in the first place?*
> 
> If something works, why switch to something that doesn't? I know that its "inside rein, outside leg" but if he responds to my inside heel, and he doesn't respond to the outside one, its not like the earth will fall down around us. When I lay my rein up on his neck, he starts heading in the direction I want him to, I would consider that "neck reining".
> 
> ...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

^^^ I would have said the same thing but couldn't justify the waste of my time. Thank you Westonsma


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> ^^^ I would have said the same thing but couldn't justify the waste of my time. Thank you Westonsma


*I am completely appalled. I got on as soon as I got up, looking forward to seeing a, "Wow, I'll try some of that..." Dang. What a freakin' disappointment. That's ok, I'll just take my experience and knowledge somewhere else. *


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## LarissaL (Dec 23, 2009)

Please spend a little time to read through the retraining guide Kim Clark has put together - http://www.leightonfarm.com/RetrainingManualOCT2009.pdf. She gives a very thorough overview of the training and handling racehorses get and some key things to beginning their retraining and some ideas to troubleshoot. It's a handy guide for first timers.

Another thought for you.. a hackmore is likely confusing your horse to an even greater degree. You've successfully removed every aid he's ever been trained to respond to. 

Two things to think about with a hackmore also - you have far less lateral (sideways) influence in a hackmore than a snaffle bit. If you EVER need to ride with a consistent tight rein in a hackmore (as you said you do!), your hackmore is doing you no good. It is not designed to be used with a held contact - you will eventually find your horse avoiding contact with it by dropping and/or tucking his nose. 

Unless your horse has visible trauma to his mouth, he can 100% be ridden in a snaffle bit. Maybe he can't be ridden in EVERY snaffle, true. He might be more comfortable in a bit with a double jointed mouthpiece (french link, for example) than a single jointed mouthpiece, or in something thinner vs something thicker. 

My personal feeling is that your horse is underprepared to understand your cues from the saddle and that he is running through your whoa aids in avoidance of the hackmore.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Thank you! I think I've seen this somewhere before, or maybe it was just an excerpt....but at any rate, its definitely something worth printing out (scrolling long documents makes my eyes hurt so bad!)

I was under the assumption that a hackamore works much like a halter....obviously with more pressure on the poll and the shank, but still the same general dynamics. Obviously I've never cantered him in hand in a halter, lol but if he understands that pressure, wouldn't he understand it in the hackamore as well? The number one reason I stopped fighting with him about putting a bit in his mouth is that its ("it", being the opening of his mouth) is really quite small....or at least it looks that way....a side view of him is attached. In addition, he would spend more time playing with it and trying to push it out than listening to me, and I was constantly having to yank his head to get him to pick his head up from long gaping yawns. With the hackamore his mouth stays closed, and it allows us both to focus, I think. When the trainer I'm going to use rides him, if she really thinks he'd perform better with a bit, then we'll talk about our options, but I like the set up he's in now.


.......apologies for the HUGE picture.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

So I'm just trying to get this straight. You like the way he responds to cues and you like the way he gives to the bridle and his groundwork is perfect. You don't want to change anything but you want to know how to fix the problems he has. What are those? Every single time anyone has offered advice you have dismissed it. *What exactly do you want from us?*


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

To give her a miracle! hehe


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

My magic wand is in the shop and i'm all out of fix it pills.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

HEHE! You can borrow mine!


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

kevins, the way you continue to poke and prod makes me wonder how many bar fights you've started. But I don't think I said anywhere that I like the way he "gives" to the bridle. I do like the way he drops his head to be bridled, but I think any horse-owning person likes that.

For the sake of the conversation though, and since I don't believe honeysuga has had HER chance at me just yet, lets go with everything you said. Lets say you were training an adult horse who had never been ridden, who was coming along nicely and then BAM, blows up quite unexpectedly. You know that you have done all that is necessary to avoid it, so how do you keep it from happening again? You were not doing anything unusual or new in your riding routine, just a nice easy hack around the arena. What steps would you take in the future?

HS, feel free to also add in any other suggestion relative to the OP.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I was just kidding around, no need to be defensive. No one wants their "chance" at you.

I have no clue what to tell you, though I do not think Kevin was "poking at you", I honestly think he was trying to help but you have dismissed everything that everyone has said because you do not think it is good enough for one reason or another. 

To me it sounds like you just need to throw your hands up, admit defeat and call a trainer. There is no shame in it, and I think you will be happier with your outcome. That will be a fresh pair of eyes that can see in person what you cannot, and take the steps to fix it.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I personally am doing just that with my mothers mare. I have no clue what to do with this horse so I am going to call in a more experienced person to help out.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

lol no harm done . I say he's poking because I believe he posted that after I sent him a PM basically taking one in the gut and extending an olive branch, and well....there's his answer.

I don't know if you read that saga or not, lol but I am calling a trainer.....most likely on Monday. I actually just have to drive down to the barn and get her alone, since she lives on site, but I work all weekend long. But, as I said in kevins PM, I'm the kind of person who likes to have knowledge for future use, so if I can do something on my own in addition to what the trainer is doing, more power to me!

That link basically broke it down and said that everything about his personality and the way he thinks is normal, lol. Well, not _normal_....normal for a race horse. I'm actually going to try and get in touch with one of his trainers (he had like 6 his last year of racing) and see what kind of bit they raced him in....I have a distinct feeling it might be the elevator bit that the document talks about.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

AHH, gotcha. I will admit that I only skimmed the thread, so I did not catch where you said you were going to consult a trainer. 
Good luck!


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Erm...a hackemore and a halter are two separate things regarding how they will 'respond' when they are ridden in; the ONLY pressure you are giving a horse with a flat nylon halter like that, is on the nose...which gives a horse alot to lean against, basically. With a hack you have chain pressure, you have nose pressure and some poll pressure...ALOT of difference!!! 

As far as him gaping his mouth open, you could ride with a cavesson; my geuss is this is more of a habit he picked up on the track (common in TB racers), than an issue with too small of a mouth; and like someone else mentioned, try a french link mouthpeice, as these fit smaller mouthed horses way better than a standard single jointed snaffle. Having a cavesson on, will prevent him from opening his mouth, and thus you should be able to keep his focus easier. If he still continues to try to gape, you could try a figure eight style cavesson; which goes above his nose, and below the bit, to keep the mouth shut. Yes, a small mouth could be why he doesn't want a bit in his mouth, but if you find the right style bit, that accomodates his mouth, you CAN ride him with a bit, and being as he needs so much retraining, you should be riding in some sort of snaffle. 

If you are having to constantly keep pressure on the hack, he is going to learn (and obviously already is), that he can duck out from underneath the pressure; just wait till he tosses his head once, when you are applying pressure, he'll learn that this is the quickest way to avoid it, and then you'll have a horse who knows how to evade pressure by ducking and flinging his head. Regular hackamores are NOT a training tool, in my opinion, these are for horses who are already trained, and don't NEED more training to be good riding horses. As a trainer, I won't ride a horse in a hackemore (mechanical, that is) until I know he knows how to stop, turn, back, side pass, etc, with leg pressure only, or a slight raising of the reins, and he needs to also already know how to neck rein, because mechanical hacks aren't meant for individual rein pressure really. Yes, by all means, ride him in one when he is passed all his 'duck out' type issues, but get him retrained first, then shift back to it.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> kevins, the way you continue to poke and prod makes me wonder how many bar fights you've started. But I don't think I said anywhere that I like the way he "gives" to the bridle. I do like the way he drops his head to be bridled, but I think any horse-owning person likes that.
> 
> For the sake of the conversation though, and since I don't believe honeysuga has had HER chance at me just yet, lets go with everything you said. Lets say you were training an adult horse who had never been ridden, who was coming along nicely and then BAM, blows up quite unexpectedly. You know that you have done all that is necessary to avoid it, so how do you keep it from happening again? You were not doing anything unusual or new in your riding routine, just a nice easy hack around the arena. What steps would you take in the future?
> 
> HS, feel free to also add in any other suggestion relative to the OP.


 
Did you read Kevinshorses' signature? It's not the fact that he just up and one day decided to blow up. Something happened. And the best way to find out is to go back to basics and find it. Since you asked what to do, you obviously don't know what that is, so it would be best just to let the trainer handle it, and once that trainer gets him figured out, the trainer can then assist you in how to prevent it from happening again. But whatever you're doing that you know is incorrect, you may want to stop. It may make a bigger problem for your trainer. And if you want to have a part in it, you need to let the trainer decide what he/she is comfortable letting you help with, afterall, you are paying her for a service. The longer it takes her/him to fix the problem, the more you're going to pay, so just let the trainer do her job, and look forward to the outcome.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Thanks....I guess I need to find some sort of bit exchange group or something then, lol. I'll definitely go with my trainers word as the final say so, for all I know she can work some magical powers and work with him in the hackamore, but maybe not. However, he doesn't "duck under" the pressure of the hackamore, at least not that I'm aware of. He may have tried, but its usually only where theres a patch of green grass, and thats solved with a small quick jerk up. When he got away from me, it was the sudden lurching forward of his front end/extension of his neck that caused me to drop the reins, and then I was not able to get them back, which is how he was able to get away from me. If I had been holding them two handed, that probably wouldn't have happened and he would have gotten only a few steps in.

I do think that he does know how to neck rein, or at least has the basic ideas of it. The document that Larissa linked me stressed that in training less really is more, because they're so used to subtle cues to begin with, where as a riding horse has to be sensitized. I haven't direct reined since I had the bit in his mouth, the most I've do is a reminder jig on the rein if he gets lazy.

Merry Christmas to my credit card......


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> lol no harm done . I say he's poking because I believe he posted that after I sent him a PM basically taking one in the gut and extending an olive branch, and well....there's his answer.


Sorry I didn't notice the PM untill I had already posted. 
As far as what I would do in your situation I stand by my advice in a previous post.

You should work on bending more. Learn how to do a one rein stop CORRECTLY and get him breaking at the poll. Use light steady pressure and release as soon as he gives even a tiny bit. Start this standing still and work up to going at a walk. When you can get and hold vertical flexion for a few strides then do it at the trot and so on. You have to get him *soft in the face and soft through the body.* I would bet that you can't *yield his hindquarters.* This is a must. Your horse also needs to back with *lightness and cadence*. You also do this with light steady pressure and a leg cue(squeezing).


1. Yield the hindquarters both directions with ease.

2. Ask for and maintain vertical flexion at all gaits.

3. Back with lightness and cadence.


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## thinktwice (Dec 26, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> if you read what i said thats not true. . . my hrose rode in an ill fitting saddle for THREE MONTHS without incident. untill she had enough of being pinched and exploded into a bronco. three times she did this untill i realized hey idiot somethings wrong. and sure enough her saddle was sqeezing and pinching her shoulder movment as most ill fitting saddles do. look up on you tube how to make sure. and unless you had a fitter look you cant be 'know for a fact' because i said that too untill i had a professional come.
> 
> *This coming from someone who had to ask a forum of people (HGS), fight and fight over how hgs was so wrong, before you changed! YOU didn't notice, others did! So STOP dishing out advice, when you weren't even the one to see your saddles were not fitting right!*
> 
> ...


To the OP, before takeing advice from BP, i'd go and read over HGS and see what other "meaningless" and "stupid" info shes given out before.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

^^ UH you really need to get a life stop following me. Quite a few ppl have agreed with me on a lot of the tips ive given on numerous threds. i really dont care what you think.


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

I have spent a good hour reading through all of these posts and I would love to help as much as my knowledge will allow. I am fairly new into horses, but I have found a great trainer that I spend a lot of time with and has taught me so much about horses and ridding. 
I want to commend you on trying to retrain your OTTB. That was alot to take on, but I know from experience that no amount of research and book will help you in training. My first hors hurt me bad because I took her on thinking I could help her with her issues because I watched RFD and read the books There are also so many "trainers" out there that will tell you things that will get you hurt. 
I see that this has gotten heated and I hope that I don't upset you or anyone else, but I want to help you to see other's point of view.
You say your horse has great ground manners, but he refuses to lunge in the round pen and also turns his butt to you (a HUGE sign of disrespect) You say he won't take a bit, so you put a hackamore on him. You say he's hard to turn (I know there's a lot more to this then just that, but I don't want to write a book) but your working on that because he only knows how to go forward.
This is my opinion, be it right or wrong, with your situation:
Your horse has no respect for you. You ask him to do something and if he doesn't do it, you don't make him or have a reason he won't do it. He wouldn't lunge in the roungpen, so you put a lunge line on him, which makes it so much easier for him to not pay attention to you and disrespect you. In my opinion that was a step back. One point for him. I also advise against ground driving. You can really screw up a horse if you do it wrong.
I think it is imperative that you put a snaffle on him, no other bit. In my opinion any "mechanical" items (tie down, martigales, draw reins, etc) just cover the problem. It is better if you spend the time to teach the horse what you are wanting. It takes longer, but it's such a better result.
If you ask your horse to yeild his hind end and he doesn't do it, make him. This horse is walking all over you. Obviously, you do have to make sure he knows what your asking him.
A one rein stop is imperative to teach him. I think this is just what he needs. When he takes off on you, you want him to instantly give to that bit and slow down. Your horse is excatly what a one rein stop is for. Horses can only think about one thing at a time, so you are changing his thinking to slow down. With that said, you need to do the one rien stop a ton of times until it's just second nature and he is giving to that bit (which is the first thing I think you need to teach him) so when you put preasure on that bit when he takes off, he instictually turns and slows down.
I think you need to stop thinking about retraining him and think about training him. Start from the very basics from the beginning and work your way just like he was a baby. Yes, he does have a lot of baggage, but he needs started from the beginning again.
If you want to learn about training him, go there with the trainer while she works him. My trainer let me go everytime I wanted to and he explained everything he did. That's how I learned. If she won't let you there while she's working him, find another trainer. I also feel, like others have said, that you should find a trainer that knows more about retraining, but she may do great. Your the one that knows her and can make that decision.
In my opinion, and I know other's will disagree, you have to be firm with your horse. He has to know his boundaries and if he crosses them he gets an excilation of force. I have a 900lb horse that has crushed my ankle. I don't want to get hurt again, so she will be hurt before I will. This is not a partnership. As much as I love her and as much as she is one of my very best friends, I am boss and it is a dictatorship. She does not cross those boundaries. 
I hope you make the right decision, no matter what it is. We are all here to help you and I hope you see it that way.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

here is a video of him lunging. This was filmed in early December, after a two or three month break from lunging. Near then end he starts to put up his usual tricks....I would have filmed longer, but the camera ran out of memory  If you want to see what he was like BEFORE the break, I can link that also....but there he is on a lunge line (lunging with the western trainer) and so he's extra naughty. Pictures of saddle fit, and a video probably of the basic ground work will also be in the works this week. Should I get them on the ground, from the saddle, or both?


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Here's what I see with the free longe video...

1) All you have him doing is trot...no walking, no cantering, so really, what's the point of it? When you do longe him, you should do lots of direction changes, and gait changes, not just let him choose the speed\gait, and have him mosey around like he is doing. 

2) when he changes directions on his own, you don't correct him and send him back in the direction you had him going; basically he is able to choose direction, which has HIM in control at that point. 

3) the person controlling him is NOT very persuasive with their body language... which makes him more able to control the situation to how he wants to. 

4) He's got his butt angled towards you more than I like to see; indicating he is not interested in respecting your space, or authority; remember his rear is his defence, and he needs to yield it to you. Turning it toward you, when he's moving, and especially when he's stopping and evading your authority, is not a good thing.


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

In my opinion he is playing games with you. It lookes like the whole time he's lunging his body is turned slighly away from you, his butt slightly in. He's watching everythign outside of the round pen. The whole point of lunging is to have his complete attention and respet. When his attention is elsewhere he's disrespecting you. 
I think you need a trainer. He needs a trainer.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Thanks everyone. This video was originally for critiquing his movement at a trot, to me his back legs look a little stiff, so thats why there's not too many gait changes. I do have a ten second video of him cantering, but that separate and doesn't really show anything, so I didn't include it. This was also the second or so day of rain where I couldn't ride, so I was just giving him some light work. However, from that day of filming, he only tried to do a turn when I didn't want him to one time, technically twice, the first time was at 1:12 where he tried to turn and I got after him, and the second was at 1:32 when he did the full turn around, again, when I got after him. I know he still turns his butt in on occasion, but I think he did turn in to me more often than out (I haven't actually counted, lol) also remember we continued even after the video stopped.

I know its hard to see from the video but his ears are on me, but you are right, now that I look at it he is kind of angled outwards. If I get super aggressive with my body language, or even hold the whip up at his shoulder, he'll start throwing his head over the rail to "escape"....If I walk in towards him he keeps moving, but only until the next seam in the round pen, where he'll try it again, which then means I'm essentially chasing him with the whip, which doesn't do anything either. If I stand in the middle and let him move around me without any pressure on him, all I have to do is step into his path and he turns, and for him to stop I drop the whip and hold my arms out and say "whoa".

But, he doesn't just do this with me, he does this with EVERYONE. If you guys want to see him working with someone else, I can do that too


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

How great is it that you can work a horse in short sleeves in december! 

I recieved the book _True Horsemanship Through Feel by Bill Dorrance and Leslie Desmond. _As I read the book I thought about the OP and her situation. I would recomend the book to everybody but the OP could really use it. Bill talks about getting a feel for the horse and getting the horse to feel of you. I will probably start another thread soon about this but the gist is that I see a human with no feel for her horse and vice versa. Please look into this book. You can probably get it from your local library.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I sooooo want that book, but I have NO extra funds since taking the job I did this fall. It's really hard getting used to less than 800$ (with TWO salaries), every two weeks...I was getting anywhere from 6-800 every week...but hubby didn't have a job, and I'm not sure how mine would have fared this winter, with the economy. 

I can work with my horses in a sweatshirt very comfortably this winter...I guess that's the best trade off!  (I moved from MN, to AZ)


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Try your library. If they don't have it they may be able to get it for you.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Haha kevins, ironically, I like it sooooo much better when I have to wear a jacket. Anything hotter than 60 in the winter just makes me sad. Living in Florida all of my life just annoys me some days, but the economy is in no condition for me to leave a steady job and move. I'll definitely look for that book somewhere (I only wish they sold it at Walmart).


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Try your library. If they don't have it they may be able to get it for you.


haha...I live, literally in the middle of nowhere, and the nearest 'town' has a library with mostly all older than 20 year old horse books...Lol! I spose I could keep an eye out on e-bay, or amazon...


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## coffeemama (Jul 10, 2009)

just wanted to say thanks for posting this question i am having same exact problem with my gelding only he's trained, not a project horse like yours so what's his excuse?


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

^^lol, he's a donkey butt, just like mine is.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

I applaud your efforts in making sure to check for pain problems but it does seem like a behavioral issue as well and there isn't really getting around lunging and ground work. If your horse has arthritis then start him on adequan, legend, polyglycan or whatever and put his butt back to work. 

Round pen sour? No mam. If he's fine for 5 minutes he can be good for 10 more or 30... (Not advocating lunging the crap out of your horse for 45 minutes) Lots of directional changes and transitions and breaks make the most of your lunging sessions.

I agree with a previous poster that a mechanical hackmore isn't a great idea... Go with a mild snaffle type bit or if your so against it go with a side pull.. something that doesn't cross your signals.. But remember a bit is only as harsh as you make it!


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

I read your reply to the post about the video and again you are saying "he did this because" and making excuses. He's not scared of your whip, he's figured you out. He is playing with you. This horse has no respect for you and if you don't solve the problem now he's going to get more dangerous. I don't think you have the tools to teach this horse as you are just learning yourself. 
You said you didn't want to send him to a trainer because you wanted to learn. You can't learn by teaching. That doesn't make sense. A teacher has to learn first before he/she can teach. Therefore, you need to learn under a trainer before you take on a project. You need to know what this horse needs before you start training.


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## Attitude05 (Nov 11, 2009)

that made sense


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Thank you starline, but the "round pen sour" was almost two months ago.....I can give you the barn number and anyone here can talk with multiple people who've seen him act up, and that's exactly what they suggested....to give him a break, try something new, and go back to it later. I'm sure if I keep the round pen up for another month or so, he'll start acting up the same way again.



Semperfiwife said:


> I read your reply to the post about the video and again you are saying "he did this because" and making excuses. He's not scared of your whip, he's figured you out. He is playing with you. This horse has no respect for you and if you don't solve the problem now he's going to get more dangerous.*As I said before, he does this with EVERYONE. I have had three people lunge him other than me, both my English and Western trainer at the barn, and my BO. The "excuses" are legitimate. If you or anyone would like to see a video of them lunging him, I can get that.* I don't think you have the tools to teach this horse as you are just learning yourself.
> You said you didn't want to send him to a trainer because you wanted to learn. You can't learn by teaching. *No, if you've read any post where someone has said get him a trainer, I have responded that that's exactly what I'm doing. What I said is that I want to be involved as much as possible, and I want ideas because I'd like to have a plan to discuss with the trainer.* That doesn't make sense. A teacher has to learn first before he/she can teach. Therefore, you need to learn under a trainer before you take on a project. You need to know what this horse needs before you start training.


The videos of everything else should be coming in the tuesday/wednesday area....should I get this groundwork video of him in the saddle, or on the ground, or both?


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

*This is something I didn't expect you to post on this thread, because you're going to be blasted for it. There's so much going on that's wrong, that I can't even begin to critique.*




justsambam08 said:


> Thank you starline, but the "round pen sour" was almost two months ago.....I can give you the barn number and anyone here can talk with multiple people who've seen him act up, and that's exactly what they suggested....to give him a break, try something new, and go back to it later. I'm sure if I keep the round pen up for another month or so, he'll start acting up the same way again.
> 
> 
> 
> The videos of everything else should be coming in the tuesday/wednesday area....should I get this groundwork video of him in the saddle, or on the ground, or both?


 
*Ok, so the horse knows how to longe, before he came to you. YOU don't know how to longe your horse. THAT's what you need to learn from the trainer. If you get your horse's respect, you won't have a problem whoa'ing him up. You said you "got after him." Cracking that whip is not getting after him, you should be able to stand perfectly in the center and control his movement solely with your voice, or a flinch of your shoulders or elbows, without a whip. I know this because he was obviously run in a roundpen on the track, just the same as mine. I would suggest watching Dennis Reis on RFDTv or go to a clinic. *

*I cannot express to you the fact that you're a novice, as you know it as well as I do, you're not going to heed any advice I give, but this you should. Leave him out of the roundpen and stay off his back until you get the trainer out so he doesn't get more control over you and seriously hurt you. (even if it's only in his mind, because THAT'S what counts to HIM. If he THINKS he has you, he really does have you, and no amount of work at your current level can prevent this, only provoke it.)*


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

Amen westonsma. I agree completely...except for the Dennise Reis part, but that's a whole different issue. 
If your trainers are round penning him and he's doing the same thing you need different trainers. That is basic stuff and if your trainer can't get his respect in the round pen you are in serious trouble.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Semperfiwife*  
_I read your reply to the post about the video and again you are saying "he did this because" and making excuses. He's not scared of your whip, he's figured you out. He is playing with you. This horse has no respect for you and if you don't solve the problem now he's going to get more dangerous.*As I said before, he does this with EVERYONE. I have had three people lunge him other than me, both my English and Western trainer at the barn, and my BO. The "excuses" are legitimate. If you or anyone would like to see a video of them lunging him, I can get that.* I don't think you have the tools to teach this horse as you are just learning yourself. 
You said you didn't want to send him to a trainer because you wanted to learn. You can't learn by teaching. *No, if you've read any post where someone has said get him a trainer, I have responded that that's exactly what I'm doing. What I said is that I want to be involved as much as possible, and I want ideas because I'd like to have a plan to discuss with the trainer.* That doesn't make sense. A teacher has to learn first before he/she can teach. Therefore, you need to learn under a trainer before you take on a project. You need to know what this horse needs before you start training._

_*If he supposedly "does this with everyone," then everyone is wrong. As far as being involved, fine. BE involved. But don't think that you're going to be able to "tell the trainer" how you do it and what you think he/she should do or does wrong. Telling a trainer what you think should be done is an insult to their expertise, and most likely will chase a person off. So coming at the trainer, "I have a plan to discuss with you." says, "I know what I'm doing, but here, you do it." You need to tell the trainer what happened, in a short description, and tell the trainer that you want to happen. He/she will ask any other questions they need to know. Back up, let the trainer have a session or two alone, THEN come watch. This way you're not there to distract your horse, and he can focus on the training. Don't offer up any, "Oh man, he does that every time I do this." That's one of those redundant things the trainer isn't going to want to hear.*_

_*Any ideas you get should be information your trainer offers you. Some trainers are OK talking you through what they're doing. But don't expect this to be a one-time fix, or to be fixed in 4 or 5 sessions. It probably wouldn't hurt to have the trainer put 30 rides on him. Not 30 days, 30 rides. Then he'll be green broke enough for you to ride, but only under the instruction of the trainer.*_


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

Semperfiwife said:


> Amen westonsma. I agree completely...except for the Dennise Reis part, but that's a whole different issue.
> If your trainers are round penning him and he's doing the same thing you need different trainers. That is basic stuff and if your trainer can't get his respect in the round pen you are in serious trouble.


 
*Oh, Semperfi, I have much respect for Dennis Reis. I have seen live some of what the man is capable of, and would send any of my horses to him, any time. Did you have a bad experience?*


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Thanks everyone......thats a little harsh to say that no one knows what they're doing, I can respect the fact that I may not when it comes to really training a horse, even though I have free-lunged other horses before. But why don't I just get a video, most likely of the trainer I intend to use along with that ground work, and then you all can judge it since that's whats happening here anyway. The "chasing after him" scenario was referring to_ August_, not now....even though you cant see me in the video, it would be obvious if I really were chasing him around with the whip. I'll say it again, as of now, to get him to reverse, I have to just make a motion to step in his path, and say "reverse". To get him to stop, I drop the whip, hold out both arms and say "whoa" this is all done from the middle of the round pen.

To me "discussing" and "telling" are two different things--I would only presume to tell her what my goals are as far as where I want him to be at the end of everything. Anything else that would be suggested would be just that, a suggestion....a conversation of what she thinks is best versus what I want. If she just has a "one size fits all" training method and says " doing this and ONLY this will definitely cure him", I'll find someone else. Not every trainer knows everything, and since he is not a _normal_ green riding horse, _normal_ methods might not work the way they are intended.

*Should the ground work video be in the saddle, from the ground, or both?*


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

westonsma said:


> *Oh, Semperfi, I have much respect for Dennis Reis. I have seen live some of what the man is capable of, and would send any of my horses to him, any time. Did you have a bad experience?*


 No, I haven't had a bad experience with him. I just don't like some of the stuff he does. I don't think he's a bad horsemen and different things work for different people and horses. His methods just don't work for me. It's not a big deal or anything, just what I think works. 
justsambam08..
When you say: "The "chasing after him" scenario was referring to_ August_, not now....even though you cant see me in the video, it would be obvious if I really were chasing him around with the whip. I'll say it again, as of now, to get him to reverse, I have to just make a motion to step in his path, and say "reverse". To get him to stop, I drop the whip, hold out both arms and say "whoa" this is all done from the middle of the round pen."
Just because your horse is doing what your telling him to doesn't mean it's right. He needs dominance established. In the video he's just dancing with you. Playing your game. There is no give and no respect.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> Thanks everyone......thats a little harsh to say that no one knows what they're doing, I can respect the fact that I may not when it comes to really training a horse, even though I have free-lunged other horses before. *Ok, back to my nitpicking, you don't know how to longe a horse, so you don't need to get defensive. Just accept the advice, say to yourself, "I really need to learn this stuff. Maybe I should just listen." You can't "free longe" a horse if you don't know how to longe a horse. And I don't care how many times you say it. Plus, your barn COULD be one of those full of the famed pet owners, how would we know? *
> 
> But why don't I just get a video, most likely of the trainer I intend to use along with that ground work, and then you all can judge it since that's whats happening here anyway. *That's what's happening here anyway? What, the trainer was the one standing in the roundpen? No. That was you, and a friend. Two people in the roundpen at one time trying to longe a horse and videotape at the same time is NOT going to work. You asked for the critique when you posted the video. And if you feel that your horse is going to do the same thing with the trainer, then you seriously need to take a step back and reconsider even getting a trainer. If you aren't confident that your horse will perform differently under REAL control, you need to find him a home who can. And yes, I'd like to see a vid of the trainer working your horse.*
> 
> ...


 
The video should be of the trainer working with your horse, and then you can get our opinions on the trainer and how he/she is working with your horse.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Can I jump in? I want to address the "dominance" that everyone mentions. With this horse, I think a more oblique approach might suit him and his owner better.

I realize that the video was taken for evaluation purposes. Nevertheless, I think his balking was directly because he was getting no response back. The verbal "good" didn't seem to mean anything, I feel. I think letting him stop, going over and giving him a scratch on his tummy, _something_ to say how pleased you were, would be a better response by the human.

In other words, he kept giving the right answer, but you kept asking the same question over and over. Of course, the session wasn't a training session, but then again, HE didn't know that.

Just another opinion to add to this lengthy thread.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

did i miss a video?


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

Beling said:


> Can I jump in? I want to address the "dominance" that everyone mentions. With this horse, I think a more oblique approach might suit him and his owner better.
> 
> I realize that the video was taken for evaluation purposes. Nevertheless, I think his balking was directly because he was getting no response back. The verbal "good" didn't seem to mean anything, I feel. I think letting him stop, going over and giving him a scratch on his tummy, _something_ to say how pleased you were, would be a better response by the human.
> 
> ...


I understand what your saying and I respectfully disagree to a point. THis horse does need direction and I agree that she needs to quit talking so much to him and reinforcing what she wants, but I think she should apply preasure when she wants something and then release pressure when he does it right. After he's done with the exercise and she asks him to stop, then a good petting would work. I don't think he needs petted everytime he does something good. He just needs a release of pressure. 
I completely agree with asking the same thing over and over again. Everytime your with your horse they're learning something, so everytime you are with your horse is a training lesson in my opinion.
But, my bottom line is there needs to be a good trainer or experienced horse person to teach her what she needs to know and to teach this horse because she doesn't have the experience or knowledge to do it.


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## AlmostThere (Oct 31, 2009)

westonsma said:


> *I am completely appalled. I got on as soon as I got up, looking forward to seeing a, "Wow, I'll try some of that..." Dang. What a freakin' disappointment. That's ok, I'll just take my experience and knowledge somewhere else. *


For what it's worth *I* got a lot out of your post. Even though I am never likely to try to re-train an OTTB, the info you passed along in your first post was fascinating. I was disappointed that you were too frustrated to post anything you learned from your three hour discussion with your husband. 

Your knowledge may not help the OP (though this seems like one of those discussions where given enough time, the OP might reread it in the future and be able to approach the ideas presented from a more receptive mindset), but I bet it'll help lots of folks reading along.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

AlmostThere said:


> For what it's worth *I* got a lot out of your post. Even though I am never likely to try to re-train an OTTB, the info you passed along in your first post was fascinating. I was disappointed that you were too frustrated to post anything you learned from your three hour discussion with your husband.
> 
> Your knowledge may not help the OP (though this seems like one of those discussions where given enough time, the OP might reread it in the future and be able to approach the ideas presented from a more receptive mindset), but I bet it'll help lots of folks reading along.


*Thank you! I really appreciate this! If you'd like more, I'd really like to express some of the things that came out! And I'm secretly hoping she will...*


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think part of the problem here is the attitude toward the horse. The horse is getting by the best way he knows how. He is not getting what he needs from those handling him and is doing what he has to to get along. He is not being stubborn, angry or a donkey butt. He is confused and needs some help getting right in his mind. He needs to be with a horseman who knows how to help him get where he needs to be in his mind and body. If you approach a horse with an attitude of "I'm going to show you who's boss" you may get him to do some things but you won't get what the horse could give you if you approached him in a better way. A horse has a lot to give and he will give some in spite of what you do but he will give everything if handled with feel and timing.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

westonsma said:


> *Thank you! I really appreciate this! If you'd like more, I'd really like to express some of the things that came out! And I'm secretly hoping she will...*


 
Please start another thread. I am always interested in learning more about horses particularly in those areas that I have little experience with.


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> If you approach a horse with an attitude of "I'm going to show you who's boss" you may get him to do some things but you won't get what the horse could give you if you approached him in a better way. A horse has a lot to give and he will give some in spite of what you do but he will give everything if handled with feel and timing.


 I am very intriged. I think I know what you mean...which is kinda what I'm trying to say and failing miserably, but could you explain what you mean by approaching him in a better way?


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## AlmostThere (Oct 31, 2009)

westonsma said:


> *Thank you! I really appreciate this! If you'd like more, I'd really like to express some of the things that came out! And I'm secretly hoping she will...*





kevinshorses said:


> Please start another thread. I am always interested in learning more about horses particularly in those areas that I have little experience with.


I agree with Kevin, I'd love to hear more .


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Semperfiwife said:


> I am very intriged. I think I know what you mean...which is kinda what I'm trying to say and failing miserably, but could you explain what you mean by approaching him in a better way?


The first step in approaching him in a better way is to realize that he isn't doing what he's doing because he doesn't like you or is trying to oppose you. He does what he does because he thinks that is either what you want or what he needs to do to survive. you can't start where you think the horse should be, you need to start where the horse IS or even a little before that. You need to get your horse in a state of mind where he can feel what you want. In the book I referenced in a PP Bill Dorrance explained that when a mare touchs a foal with her nose the foal knows what she wants because he has a feel for her. With what to us looks like the same exact movement she can make her foal lay still or jump up and be ready to run. 

If you want to know more get the book _True Horsemanship through Feel_. I can't recemmend it enough but it is especially applicable to the OP's situation.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

westonma-I was referring to the judgment as what was already happening. I assumed that since the original debate was that he had no solid foundation and that was his problem, it would be fine enough to have me doing the groundwork. Never the less, I'll see if she has time to do it on Tuesday, and maybe get her evaluation ride in to give the run down of what needs to happen with him. I also don't think I worded that phrase right... "versus" wasn't really the correct word to use, I meant something more along the lines of "using her ideas/concepts on training to get the results I want."

Beling-I pretty much have that approach, but since the video was only two minutes long, and the camera memory was full, we didn't catch the whole session. Usually thats exactly what happens, every so often (I try to end it after he turns in to me to reverse, rather than turning out) we'll stop, I'll let him think about it for a minute (till theres licking/chewing) and then go over and pet his face, pat his shoulder, etc.

Kevin-I may say that in humor, but if he really didn't like me, I'd probably really know it by now. I do realize that he's only doing what he knows how to do to survive, which, in the situation of having a rider on his back, would be to go as fast as he possibly can. I where I thought he would know what to do, a simple walk. We only recently started a trot. I think my problem in the situation where he bolted was, after being off for a week, and with the cold weather, I made the mistake of assuming we could pick up right where we left off with no problems. Essentially, I asked for too much too soon, witout refreshing his memory of "this is what I want"


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

i didn't see the video anywhere?? can you post the link again


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

here you are barn princess......


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## LarissaL (Dec 23, 2009)

Justsambam, I have to say, you are taking the criticism really well. 

After watching the video (and the ones on the lunge line), your horse is really confused and really unbalanced. I do not believe free lunging will benefit him at all at this point. He needs more communication. If I were into groundwork (and personally, I am not) I would restart him on the lunge. I would put him in a snaffle bridle, remove the reins and run a lunge line through the bit cheekpiece, over his head and attach to the far side. I'd then put him on a small circle (10m?) in the round pen and work with him on walk/halt/reverse on that small circle until he's comfortable travelling the same circle without tension on the line or needing constant input. Then you can add in some larger circles and other gaits. 

I disagree with some people who insist you're not capable of doing any work without a trainer. Certainly you do the above exercises and a few slow, simple ones under saddle. 

My feeling with this horse is that his reaction to confusion is to go FORWARD. I would venture to say that's why you are having issues under saddle. I think you'll have to recognize that reaction and also to give him confidence in his work. 

The first under saddle work I would do with him is simple variations of walk/trot/halt. I'd do plenty of walk to halt, back to walk and introduce a turn on the forehand once a quiet halt is established. When he's stopped anticipating going faster, I would start walk/trot transitions again. I'd aim for that upward transition to be VERY quiet and bring him back to a walk after about 3-5 strides. 10-15 walk strides, back to quiet trot for 3-5 strides. Repeat a few times, mix up with the walk/halt/turn on forehand and circles and reversing directions. Keep your hands quiet - but also make sure that he responds when you say to respond. If he wants to trot 15 strides instead of 5, put him on his butt once and then go back to being quiet.

These exercises will help you establish your brakes, introduce your leg as a lateral aid (not just forward!) and also to start acclimating his brain to a quieter, less rushed state. 

As an aside, he appears to have lost condition in the last few months? Is he getting turnout? Is he eating plenty of hay and a complete feed (no sweet feed!)? If all those are met, I think the loss of condition is a good indication that he's not working correctly at all.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

He looks okay to me in the video. a little undermuscled though.. and i have to say i love the voice commands and the way he reverses when you ask . he has a short stride and it looks a little off to me. maybe hes just not balanced as mentioned before. i think if you keep up the work you'll have a great partner. My tb mare was a nightmare at 16 y.o after being turned out as a broodmare since she was 7. its been a year , she had to gain over 500 lbs and were still finishing up training. i dont think any horse is ever done training haha theres too much to learn =].


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Thanks to you both. I know he is very unbalanced, he does a lot better with consistent work, he remembers how his feet move, but that was the first time he'd done more than walking to and from the stall in three or four days because of rain. Not to mention I think that round pen might be 50 feet, which is pretty small, and he's definitely not used to tight turns. I actually just got a surcingle and some draw reins (with the donuts) so we're going to work on his balance and topline, since I don't think that will have any effect on whatever training he might need/go through. I would definitely agree with your statement about the confusion, after all that's what he was trained to do, lol. Like I mentioned to kevinshorses, we've only recently begun trotting work, I spent a little under four months getting his walking, halting, and backing up down smoothly, and so if I were consistantly riding him now, it would be just about three months of w/t work. My mistake was probably thinking he could trot perfectly well after a week of cool weather and no work, and remember everything we'd been working on. I'm going to talk with the trainer I want to use after she rides him and see if she really thinks putting a bit in his mouth would help him, and if so, what kind. I have a D-ring snaffle of medium width that does nothing for him, but I've considered something also with a low port maybe to give his tongue a little more wiggle room so he doesn't try to push it out. Regardless of what the people here say, I was planning on getting lessons (or I had at least requested them as a Christmas gift) sometime this Spring, so whether its training or lessons is really just a matter of how much money I want to spend.

As far as I know, he is getting turnout.....but we have NO grass where he's boarded at, or at least not in the back four pastures. Theres grass in the front thats reserved for the geriatric crew and the babies, and we also have a nice lawn that I hand graze him on every time I go out. He gets four flakes a day and 2 scoops (however much that is) of senior feed daily. I don't think he's lost condition, he's definitely gotten fatter, lol, but thats due to the fact that this off and on rainy weather we have has kept our arena pretty soupy. Compared to the August video, he has more muscle in his shoulders, more fat, and less rib. Beware though, he also does have a skinny side. Check my pictures, for some reason his right is always a little skinnier than his left.

BP-See the answers above xD If I could get over his fear of ground poles (more than one, and its a monster trying to eat him!) I might be able to get his butt looking a little better, but the three months of tons of trotting did wonders for his shoulders.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

the side reins and surcingle will help on the muscle part . try a french link snaffle. thats what ive used on all my ott tbs and they all loved them the hardest bit i ever used was a kimberwick then downshifted back into a french link. consistancy is also the key =]


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I also noticed in that document LarissaL sent me (I think its back at the top of page 8 ) that occasionally they use elevator bits on the track, specifically for horses who have problems stopping. Would this also be a possibility (to start with, and then work down from, if needed)? I've seen debates on the effectiveness of the bit, since some say unless the "emergency brakes" are applied, it works like a snaffle does, while others say its just a harsh bit period.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

the elevator just makes them tuck their heads in and can make it work against you , he can grab the bit and run easier. if you want something with a curb effect id use a kimberwicke . they arent too bad . i happen to like them the best out of any curb bit out there.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Whats the western equivalent to a kimberwicke? lol Looking at these pictures of kimberwickes on chicks, I don't think that my headstall will fit into those top slots....however, looking at western bits, i'm having a hard time finding something that ISN'T shanked.....


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## Tripp (Dec 29, 2009)

Why not take him back to a simple snaffle and re-train him...? Instead of putting gadgets and harsher bits into his mouth in an attempt to cover up training holes?


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Actually even though the bit attachement on the Kimberwicke looks small, it should fit your western bridle...If you have anyone at your barn who has one, I would try it first, and see; both on your bridle and the horse...Lol! 

I would also find a cavesson, to keep his gaping habit to a minimum; my Appy that I took on as a project this spring\summer was a gaper, so after I had his teeth checked, I put on a cavesson on him. After working in it a couple of weeks, I started taking it off every couple of rides, then every other ride, til I didn't have to use it anymore.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Tripp said:


> Why not take him back to a simple snaffle and re-train him...? Instead of putting gadgets and harsher bits into his mouth in an attempt to cover up training holes?


 
Amen!!! 
To the OP:
Get yourself educated and work on your horse with feel. I don't think you have enough background to know just what to do with your horse. The video you posted shows a horse that is unsure of what is expected of him and quite nervous. As I said before find a GOOD trainer and let him/her do the training while you take some riding lessons.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Tripp, if you've read the whole topic (I don't blame you if you haven't) westonsma suggested the exact same thing.....put him in a harsh bit (she suggested something like a twisted wire snaffle, or some other bit that she attached a picture of, but I can't see it) and teach him to obey it that way, since as of right now, with the snaffle he's had previously, all he does is run through it, gape his mouth/wag his tongue, stretch down and out, and try to push the bit out of his mouth/get it under his tongue. The bit I bought for him was a D-ring snaffle (since I thought exactly what everyone says "simple and safe"). I DO think that using something with a low port might help with the tongue issues, and as mom2pride suggested, a cavesson for the gaping. If you have any training suggestions as to how to fix that, I'm more than welcome to hear them (less money spending for me! lol).

He is always nervous in the round pen, even moreso on a lunge line. I honestly think it might be the lunge whip. This was how he was even before I got to him....the first time he was ever in the round pen, my BO lunged him for ten minutes, and he had the same "deer in headlights" look about him. However, under saddle, he was much more relaxed, I assume thats because he actually had a small clue as to what we were doing.

I have taken riding lessons before, thank you. I've leased horses before buying this one, so I know about the riding....its the specific training that I don't know, and the only way I would be able to get better at communicating specifically with him is by well, taking lessons with him. Which unless you want to pay for everything lol, I can't get him a little more broken in and take riding lessons on him all at the same time.

Hopefully, I'll be able to catch the trainer early tomorrow and get her to do some work with him in the round pen/do an evaluation ride, and get her opinions (all on video for you guys, or at least most of it) and then report back.


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

a snaffle is not a harsh bit. That's the point. The longer the port, the harsher the bit. The harsher the bit the more your going to screw him up.The horse is running through the bit because you are not teaching him right and fixing the problem. The horse is nervous in the round pen because you are not teaching him right and fixing the problem. I feel the minute you take responsibility for his behavior and stop making excuses the's going to be a much happier horse and your going to be able to look at things alot different. I will be the first to tell you that I could not train this horse. I agree 100% with Kevinshorses and what he has said throughout the thread.
I think you need started from the beginning and retrained too. I had to do this after meeting people in the beginning that taught me all wrong and then I found an amazing trainer that works through feel and with the horse instaed of against the horse. In my opinion, you need this too. 
The first few things a trainer is going to do with him is put a snaffle in his mouth and teach him how to ride in it and put him in the round pen and undo everything you've done. No excuses or reasons why he acts that way, they will give him confidence in what he does and make their direction precise and confident so he knows what's asked of him and what he should do. 
I hope your trainer can do this.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

"Everything I've done"....the problem is, I didn't do anything, except maybe go along with what ever other people have told me. Before I personally handled this horse, I had someone else come out and ride him, come out and lunge him, come out and _look _at him. She is a very accomplished friend of mine, she currently jumps 3'6" on her 16.3 TB and has been riding and taking lessons since she was 12 (shes now 20). He was nervous on the lunge line, and she commented on this. When she rode him (which was just at a walk, and in a d-ring, although not mine) I saw and she commented that he was very forward, and that he felt like he wanted to "go"....however, he was much less nervous in saddle, and toned down even more when we brought in his mare friend to hang out. Before I lunged him in the round pen, I had my BO do it for me. 

What I have I done specifically? I rode him in a hackamore for four months without incident, I taught him how to halt, back, back in circles, stand for mounting from a mounting block, trot on a loose rein, how to respect that he's not ever to bite _me_, how he's not supposed to swing his butt in to _me_, how he's supposed to let me walk in circles around him in his stall if I feel like it and not crowd the door as we walk through it.

As for his training, the trainer does feel like he needs specifically in-saddle training. She's going to work with him for one month, five days a week, and after the first week of specifically ground work, she'll start in-saddle work. So even though that's only 15 rides give or take, sixteen with the evaluation ride. she doesn't think he'll need much more than that, and if he does at the end of the month, then we'll talk about it. Both the BO and her know his personality like I do, and we know he's quick to pick things up. She is going to try him in her western hackamore first (mine is the english type), and if she feels she needs to change it during the ride, then she'll switch to my snaffle (I rigged it up on my headstall today just in case), or whatever other bit she may feel is appropriate.

She's riding him tomorrow at 2pm, and I plan on being there a little early so I can groom him myself and check him over. The video of it all should follow.


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

I give up. I feel like I'm hitting a brick wall. maybe I'm not communicating right, I don't know, but I completely disagree with you or your trainer ridding him in a hackamore because he won't take a bit. Maybe I'm wrong and you and your trainer are right. I hope for your horse's sake you are. 
I can't just tell you what to do. Like Kevinshorses said; it's a feel and something you learn. It's a feel that I can't explain between you and your horse even if your not touching. It's a feel that you know exactly how your horse is feeling at every moment and it seems like you are not getting what your horse is comunicating at all. We saw things in the video that you didn't see while you were right there with him. This isn't something you get in a day or even a week. It's something you learn with hard work and dedication.It's an ability to look at a horse even if you dont' know that horse and know what he's feeling and thinking because you know horses that well. I was blessed to have a trainer that could explain it to me and show me what it is. I have to say that first day I watch him work my mare he opened a whole new world up to me. I hope you find someone to do the same.


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## coffeemama (Jul 10, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Sound like that horse has your number. If it where physically possible he would be riding you around the arena. Don't make excuses and I wouldn't bother with the X-rays. Just spend some money on a good trainer that will teach you to ride and teach him to be ridden. Hopefully you have learned an important lesson about the kind of deal you get when you buy a "cheap" horse. I agree with Rod that your problems with him are only going to get worse. Contrary to popular belief most racehorses can change leads and gaits and are not unbroke dinks that can only run in a straight line. The horses are exercised every day by little men in tiny saddles, they can't be too rough or they certainly don't race very long. This horse has enough experience to call your bluff and you have let him get away with it. It doesn't sound to me like there is anything wrong that can't be solved with a some time with a GOOD trainer.


he he...little men in tiny saddles..he he


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

Some things to think about;

1. Race horses know about work and have accepted it as a part of their lives.

2. The cues they have been taught are quite different than the cues used in riding. For example more pressure on the bit means go faster.

3. They are used to a very structured life so his whole life has changed.

4. They are usually very competitive minded-head strong-- and need a consistant and strong leader for sure.

He needs a structure, work and re training to understand what you want. 

Remember all ex race horses have physical stress related issues. They are asked to exceed the limitations of their muscle and skeletal systems regularly. The only question is how much damage has been done so for sure a thourough vet check is in order.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

and the results are in.......

Although she ended up NOT being able to give him a full ride around like we had planned (our English instructor ended up giving a driving lesson in the arena, and we didn't want to kill her before paying her, lol) she was able to give him a few circles in the round pen. She summed it up as saying that he could care less whats going on on his back....he's more concerned with the birds flying, and the dog laying in the grass, and the girl wearing the pink boots....He knows whats expected of him, so he does it when asked, without really paying _attention_. With all of that in mind, she said she had to give me credit for riding him for as long as I have been and staying on. He is also so out of shape! I guess its a testament to what a real athlete he is....he's only been out of work for three weeks and he's already fat. She initially used my hackamore, and although we tried to tighten it, it was giving her a hard time, so she's going to attempt to find a bit that will work with him, since she's seen how he reacts to his d-ring. If not, we'll work in her western hackamore. Here are the videos of him lunging....she's using a line with the chain on the end, but you can see his head is still looking out at everything. To the right....it sort of speaks for itself.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Your horse is really getting good at lunging your friend. Qualified trainer?


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

mm yeah i dont think i'd let her work with him any more. i think YOU need to bond with him and get a trainer to help YOU get him where you want him =/


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Yeah she's been working with horses since she was five or six. There were some big names dropped as to who she's worked with/for, but I can't remember for the life of me who they are. 

Thats an interesting idea bp, and also funny that you mentioned it....after that lunging, I was the one who cooled him off. He kept trying to test ME (rushing forward through his stall door, walking ahead of me on a lead, planting his feet when I wanted to walk somewhere) so he's now basically right back to where we started. I'll have to see if thats something that she'd be up for.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

yeah i really think that you need to work with him. he has to respect YOU not her if that makes sence. some horses are funny that way.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Oh yes I definitely agree. Hes my horse after all, right? I do think he's more of a one person horse, on top of his attitude that you can't just walk in and have his respect. I earned the little that I have, but at least its something. I think if I had to start all over at the end of 30 days, and get him re-attached to me, I'd be pretty POed.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well most horses who get sent out for training and come back to you, they are not the same horse that trainer trained.. they respect that person not you .. Ive had a few people have that issue and have to start all over and be trained themself with their horse. thats the best way to do it.


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> well most horses who get sent out for training and come back to you, they are not the same horse that trainer trained.. they respect that person not you .. Ive had a few people have that issue and have to start all over and be trained themself with their horse. thats the best way to do it.


 I completely disagree. If you have a good trianer that horse respects you too unless you screw it up, which I have done. She can't get this horse to respect her now so how is she going to do it in the future? This horse needs to find someone that can help him.
I don't think this girl knows what she's doing. Everytime she took a step back that horse gained a little bit more ground and earned a point over her. I didn't watch all of either video, but it looked to me like she didn't know what she was doing either. Just because she's been around horses since she was 6 doesn't make her a horse trainer. And just because she's worked with big names doesn't make her a horse trainer. If this was the criteria to be a horse trainer everyone would be a horse trainer. 
I feel sorry for this horse and for you. You are going to get hurt bad if you don't sell him to someone that knows how to handle him or send him to a trainer that knows how to train.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

The horse isn't disrespectful he's confused. He's not getting a clear idea of what is being ask of him. He needs a trainer that can give him that. A ggod trainer can sort him out and then all you have to do is not screw him up. I'm sure you know what is best so good luck.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Thank you kevin. Today I think I realized both what made him a good race horse and why I like him...he stands his ground pretty well, and requires a certain amount of finesse and negotiation.



Semperfiwife said:


> I completely disagree. If you have a good trainer that horse respects you too unless you screw it up, which I have done. She can't get this horse to respect her now so how is she going to do it in the future?


No, thats where the problem is. I HAD it. It took me four weeks, but I had it, even if it was just in the simple things. Today I let her handle him, do all of the correcting that may have been needed, while I stood and watched. What came out of it was a horse who seemed to have the idea that I would let him do those things to me just because I hadn't been the one correcting him.

I think I'm just going to stop arguing about my horses personality.....I know him, and everyone else over the internet does not, plain and simple. There's no amount of video that could prove what I say, because all of the things you notice I already know. I know he's arrogant, and full of himself, and needs someone confident. I know that although he does not pay attention to me 100 percent of the time, every day I come back and put myself in his face, he pays attention a little more. The fact that I come back at all earns his trust. Some horses can give themselves over to a person with just a few "join up" sessions or what have you, or one quick go around the arena to get settled in with each other. _Time_ is what he needs. He also needs consistency. He behaves the way he behaves because he's used to being passed off from person to person with no real expectations....similar to how a foster kid acts. He does what he knows how to do, which is work....walk and trot when cued, gallop when released from a gate, go until cued to stop, and then the rider lets him come down at his own pace, and as long as he thinks that that's what I'm doing with him, he'll continue to have ADD while being worked with. Only through actually showing him thats not what I want can I get him to change his thinking....which also takes time. After four months of riding, there was one week in early November where we were doing a lot of walk-trot transitions. It was confusing, and not something he was used to. He had one ear on me in the saddle by the end of that week.

I don't imagine that there are very many people on this forum who can say that they own an 11 year old horse that 14 other people have owned, not including yourself, 30 other people have ridden not including yourself, and countless others have handled him, the majority of whom expected nothing from him except not to get killed while leading him from point A to point B, and it often turned out that _he _was leading _them_. You're correct in saying that none of those things make her a horse trainer.....experience makes her a horse trainer. If she's studied under some of the big names, I can only assume that shes taken something from them, or she wouldn't have any new business coming in. Although her specific methods may not be what he ends up needing, I can't see anywhere in any of these responses where anyone has given a hint as to the specific methods he might benefit from, other than those of a trainer. Well, there are many methods and many trainers.


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

No one has a specific methods because there's no cure-all. It takes a lot of hard work and knowledge. I don't understand why you even asked the question because it seems you didn't want to listen to anyone unless they told you that you were doing the right thing. It is hard for me to believe that this horse was as dangerous as you said he was and you, with your inexperience (I don't mean this demeaning in any way) was able to fix him. 
I may be wrong in some of the things I said and I will be the first to admit it, but I feel like I wasted my time even trying to help you. I have learned my lesson and I will no longer be posting my opinions on training, etc. I hope you can find a solution to your problem that helps your horse.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

There is an article in the January 2010 issue of _Horse and Rider_ entitled "2010 Clinic Sampler". In it, it breaks down 20 different trainers and how their clinics are run. Obviously there is no one size fits all method, or there wouldn't be 20 different trainers to profile. But we've all heard them before "the Clinton Anderson way" "the Parelli way" etc. Each of these trainers has their own approach to training a horse, even if the outcome is the same. Maybe my trainers approach is not the correct one for my horse, but no one here has given any insight as to what approach he might benefit more from and possibly _listen _to. 

I said this earlier, but I have been nice to those people who give me workable solutions. Generalizations don't get me anywhere. "Get a trainer" is very general. "Get a qualified trainer" is a little more specific, but still leaves a lot of room for error. But I imagine since its not your horse, its of no consequence to anyone how much money I spend trying to find the right one, so I guess it was too much to assume that someone would point me in a more concrete direction than up. With that in mind, I have no idea why I asked this question. I think my assumptions for this board were too much.


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## LarissaL (Dec 23, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> I don't imagine that there are very many people on this forum who can say that they own an 11 year old horse that 14 other people have owned, not including yourself, 30 other people have ridden not including yourself, and countless others have handled him, the majority of whom expected nothing from him except not to get killed while leading him from point A to point B, and it often turned out that _he _was leading _them_.


Well, here's one. I own an 11 year old OTTB who raced through the end of his 8 year old year. He had 80+ starts and over $100k in winnings for multiple owners and trainers. And he wasn't gelded til late in life. 

I have worked with over 20 other OTTBs directly off the track. Your view of what happens on the track is quite distorted. It's true that POLITE ground manners are not established, but patently untrue that horses run the show. As well, it is untrue that your horse knows about three commands under saddle - honestly, how do you imagine a 112 lb man finesses a horse through a tight pack at 35 mph when his only contact with the animal is his heels and his reins? These things aren't guided missiles that magically find the finish line.

Apologies in advance, but I couldn't give a rat's behind about a horse "respecting" me. That's projecting a bit too much emotion into it. I train the horse, he responds with the appropriate answer when prompted. No more or less difficult than that. If you're not getting the right response from your horse it's not due to lack of "respect." It's because he's either not understanding (not trained, or not given the correct and clear cue) or giving you the finger. 



> He behaves the way he behaves because he's used to being passed off from person to person with no real expectations.


I'm having a hard time finding the appropriate word for this, but I believe SERIOUSLY? will sum it up nicely. 

His motivations are NOT that complex. Read articles like this one - how horses learn. A horse reacts to you based on his experiences, not a complex set of logic ("no one has cared before, why would they now?"). Read through some of his examples and compare your ideas of what your horse is thinking vs his. 

Rearing for example. If I might guess, if your horse began rearing under saddle you would say it is because he realized he could scare you. In reality, the horse only realizes that rearing is a good way to avoid work. 

Or having a hard mouth (example in part 2). You may think your horse is difficult to stop because he's ignoring you or "disrespecting" you. In reality, there are a few simpler explanations - he lacks sensation (hard hands have dulled him), or he has been conditioned not to respond (there has been no release of the rein if he responds).

You need to work on TRAINING this horse. Reconditioning his responses to you. Reprogramming him. "Bonding" and "respecting" and such hooey will come along with him learning that he can trust you - because you give consistent, easy to understand commands and you are consistent and rewarding when he responds properly. 

No matter how many "bonding" and "respect" things you do with him, he will remain distrusting of you as long as you give him conflicting signals, put him in situations he doesn't understand and generally are a bad leader. 

If you want to know what "training style" would suit him (


> I can't see anywhere in any of these responses where anyone has given a hint as to the specific methods he might benefit from


) - go with the KISS philosophy. Keep It Simple Stupid. (not a comment at you - it's actually what it's called ) Start with very easy exercises. Give him the same commands every time, correct him swiftly once if he doesn't respond, reward him for the right response. Build up to more advanced exercises. If he's not reacting correctly multiple times, he is overwhelmed and not prepared for the exercise. Choose a simpler one. 

I'd love to see pictures of your boy and updates on his training. I DO, as I have said before, think you are capable of assisting in his retraining. I believe you just need to reframe your thinking about him as a horse - understand that he has simple motivations (no matter what his prior training) and that his past doesn't matter. You can retrain anything you want into him. Just start SIMPLE and make it a building block progression.


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## LarissaL (Dec 23, 2009)

Sorry - two more things. Does your farm allow outside trainers on the premises? Or are you able/willing to send your horse out to another farm for training?

I have a friend in Polk City that breeds and breaks racehorses who has a good background in restarting OTTBs. I can ask for recommendations.

Second.. regarding the horse's condition. Would love to see a photo but just to put it out there.. here are two horses that are both out of work and in relatively good condition:

My 17 year old (18 tomorrow!) TB gelding, off track since 4. Has been out of work for roughly 3 months and very light work prior to that due to ulcers and old-guy-itis. 

My 11 year old OTTB gelding mentioned above. Out of work for nearly 2 years.

Both would need to add muscle in work for me to be satisfied, but not bad for just standing around looking cute.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> Maybe my trainers approach is not the correct one for my horse, but no one here has given any insight as to what approach he might benefit more from and possibly _listen _to.
> .


You have simply disregarded all the advice and insight that has been given. I KNOW your horse would respond to at least some of the advice given here, but you have been dismissive and closed-minded to all of it.I will not cast any more pearls before you.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

OMG ALREADY . i think you should just let this post die and do what ever your going to do . hes YOUR horse and thats that.


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## laceyf53 (Oct 21, 2007)

There is a lot of good advice here, but really it comes down to you not being dominant over your horse. Making excuses for him not doing what you want is only hindering him, and you have lost your confidence. If you are not confident, he will walk all over you which is exactly what is happening. I can make your horse lunge in that round pen, because I am confident and not afraid of getting hurt. He backs up, he gets that lunge whip in the butt and a loud "No!". If he keeps back up, he gets more lunge whip...and within 30 seconds that horse is going forward. If he bucks, I ignore it, if he kicks out at me, he gets the whip on the butt and lots of loud "No!"s. You cannot make excuses for his bad behavior! You go into that round pen with the mentality that he HAS to do it, not matter what. You are not hurting him with a a little lunge whip on the butt. When he bucks with you under saddle, you have to stay on through his "fit", and make him continue on. He is trying to get out of work, and you are letting him, thus making him worse. Put him on a glucosomine/chrondrotin joint supplement to help him feel better, and keep at it!


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

^ UH yeah ... NO .. dont ever touch your horse with a lunge whip.. get after him with it but dont ever hit him with it.


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## laceyf53 (Oct 21, 2007)

Uh...yes, it is totally O.K. to hit your horse with a lunge whip, especially a head strong one, on the butt, if he isn't going forward when asked. You do the same thing with a hand crop, the lunge whip is simply an extention of your hand.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

OMG no its not o.k ..... you dont do that...




> The whip is used for the sound is makes Only. In proper use it never touches the animal. If you are accually letting the whip touch the horse, other than accidental contact, it is abuse.





> If it is used properly, a whip or a crop should *never cause any pain or tramua* to the horse. It is simply another tool of communication from the rider to their animal. And sometimes a horse does deserve a little pop if he's being rude, just to get their attention more than anything.


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## laceyf53 (Oct 21, 2007)

It works beautifully. So yes you can. Ask, tell, demand.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

lol OK. what ever you do with your own horse is your buisness. but you dont ever hit your horse with a lunge whip its not okay and just makes them NOT respect you even more. you lunge with body language. i dont need a whip with my horses. never will.


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## Semperfiwife (Jul 17, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> lol OK. what ever you do with your own horse is your buisness. but you dont ever hit your horse with a lunge whip its not okay and just makes them NOT respect you even more. you lunge with body language. i dont need a whip with my horses. never will.


 I laughed out loud when I read your response about whips. My horse has complete respect for me because I use my whip and of course othere things too.This is just a very small part of it. My horse picked up her hind end on me one day when I was going to feed her and I lite her world on fire. That whip met perfectly with her stomach as her feet came down. You really thing thats abuse? So when our dominant mare kicks the s***t out of my little halfinger for turning her hind in to her is that abuse? That whip doesn't hurt them even half as bad as they hurt eachother. That's how our dominant mare gets respect from her, so how is popping them with the whip any different? I've been popped by one, and yes it hurt, but it wasn't that bad. 
My philosopy is that the horse will hurt before I do. If they are going to hurt me, which turning the hind end can quickly turn into, I will use that whip to my advantage. That way I'm not within kicking reach yet and I stop the bad behavior before it becomes dangerous.
If this was abuse, there sure wouldn't be alot of horses in rescues and not a whole lot of horse owners anymore. 

Okay...this time I'm really done. No more posts. I just couldn't let this go without saying something.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

when a horse is being nasty twords you thats a bit diff.. were talking about lunging.... not being kicked at.


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## laceyf53 (Oct 21, 2007)

Yes...I was talking about a horse being nasty towards you while you are lunging. My horses are not abused, the horses I work with are not abused, and if a horse refuses to do what I ask..i.e. I ask the horse forward, he stops and pins his ears, I ask again, and he BACKS UP with his ears pinned back, he's getting that lunge whip in the butt, in a heart beat. Building respect means having boundaries, not beating your horse. Never did I imply that I beat my horse with the lunge whip, I simply said if the horse doesn't go forward when asked and starts doing silly crap like backing up, you TELL him he is going forward. If that means you give him a good crack on the butt with a lunge whip, you do it. You would do the same if you were on him, how is it any different on the ground. 

And I wrote that post in response to the first 2 pages, because I wasn't going to read all 13. The OP posted early on that her horse was sour towards lunging, but obviously she has fixed that problem judging by the posts on the last couple pages.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

he wasent being nasty to her though... so no need for her to 'pop' him. id still never whip mine. i get after them untill they do as i ask. i never ask more than twice. my girls have gotten the hint. every horses learning process is different and every day is diff. as in the mood they are in.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> lol OK. what ever you do with your own horse is your buisness. but you dont ever hit your horse with a lunge whip its not okay and just makes them NOT respect you even more. you lunge with body language. i dont need a whip with my horses. never will.


ok you just made a statement that what she does with her horse is her business... then in the next sentence you got into her business.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> he wasent being nasty to her though... so no need for her to 'pop' him. id still never whip mine. i get after them untill they do as i ask. i never ask more than twice. my girls have gotten the hint. every horses learning process is different and every day is diff. as in the mood they are in.


Hi there just thought I would butt in. I find it interesting that most threads end up at to hit or not to hit. I am really interested to hear how you 'get after them', you say you never have to ask twice. How do you ask the first time? It is all very well to say you never have to hit, just explain what you do instead.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> ok you just made a statement that what she does with her horse is her business... then in the next sentence you got into her business.


uhm no... nothing in that says anything about her.. i was speaking in general.



> I am really interested to hear how you 'get after them', you say you never have to ask twice. How do you ask the first time? It is all very well to say you never have to hit, just explain what you do instead.


Voice command first and a crack of the whip pointed behind them if they dont move as asked.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Thanks Barnprincess. Have you ever encountered a horse that calls your bluff? You know the one that turns and looks at you as if to say "Really? Is that the best you can do?". I have one of those, she is not intimidated by bluff and I have smacked her on the bum. Now she knows that I will follow through she does as she is told with a voice command and a pointed finger.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

No i always work on bonding, joining up with new horses so normally after the second time they dont try again. atleast these two dont =]. my old paint would spin and go the other direction but i moved just as fast as him so id make him spin right back the other way lol


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> No i always work on bonding, joining up with new horses so normally after the second time they dont try again. atleast these two dont =]. my old paint would spin and go the other direction but i moved just as fast as him so id make him spin right back the other way lol


The horse I had previous to the one I have now was easy to deal with on the ground . All I had to do was draw myself up to my full height and growl and he would salute and say yes mummy! The mare that I have now is such a character she is sweet and kind but occassionally likes to play the your going to have to make me game, she never tries to escape or avoid, just refuses to move. I remember asking her to yield her hind quarters from the ground, she new how to do it she just didn't want to at this point. I poked and prodded her, growled and gruffled at her and still nothing. I tried intimidating movements and getting right in her space I ended up pressed right against her flank shuffling my body to try and make her uncomfortable (it must have looked ridiculous) in the end I smacked her on the bum with the lead rope, she very nicely yielded her hind end and looked at me as if to say "why didn't you say so?"!

I know one thing that I could have done was used something hard and sharp to poke her with, pushing until she had to move from it. The thing is I know my horse and I know I would just about have to draw blood to get the desired results. I choose to believe that it is nicer to give her a smack than stab her.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> he wasent being nasty to her though... so no need for her to 'pop' him. id still never whip mine. i get after them untill they do as i ask. i never ask more than twice. my girls have gotten the hint. every horses learning process is different and every day is diff. as in the mood they are in.


So how many horses have you trained? As you get more experience you will find that sometimes you have to take that next step. You may only need to touch them once or twice but some horses won't be bluffed. There are no absolutes in life. Your horse may one day become dull to the lunge whip popping behind her and you will have to decide if you want to allow your horse to tune you out or if you want her to keep searching for your feel. 

Telling people that they are absolutely wrong to do a certain thing with thier horse is a really good way to get them on the defensive and to get them to disregard everything you say. If this is your goal then that is excellent but if not you might want to rethink your tactics.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I was thinking the same thing Kevin. I have met some horses that their owner will stand their all day waving their whip and they can't figure out why the horse won't move, they don't want to hit him. That horse just stands there with this "sucker!" look. If you are about using the join-up process, then you observe horse behavior. Have you noticed what that lead horse does when pinning his ears and moving in doesn't work with an obnoxious horse? The teeth or hind legs make an appearance, and he isn't afraid to use them. I have a boarder with an extremely insecure horse that had lived in a stall for a good chunk of her life. Now that she goes out with my horses, she regularly tests my QH filly to try and pull rank. She stands there and squeals and kicks out at her, but won't follow through, my filly just stands there calmly, waits for her to get close enough, and nails her once and goes back to her business. If the other mare won't let off, the filly goes after her. So yes, some horses do require that follow through, you don't have to beat the tar out of them, but contact can be necessary when your leadership is being tested.

To the OP. You won't make any progress with that horse until you can get a hold of his mind. He is relying on himself more than on the person and has no interest in what he is being asked to do. You say he is that way with you, which is great, but that just shows that he doesn't yet "own" that skill. When I'm training a horse, it doesn't take too long to get that horse to latch onto me, but thats not all I need, I have enough horses, I need that horse to own those skills to the point where he can show them to other people. I need him to get to the point where if someone who doesn't know what they are doing gets a hold of him, he can say "its alright, I know whats going on here". The horse will be patient, not highly reactive, ready to be the teacher instead of the student. The energy being thrown forth by the "trainer" is the last thing that he needs. She is telling him to do what she says, but she's not teaching him how to do it, which is the idea of a trainer.

If you don't want to work him in a roundpen, then why is he being lunged on such a short line? That, in my opinion, would be much harder on the joints. He should be able to walk calmly on that line until his head is dropped and he can relax. His back is tight, his neck is tight, and I'm not at all surprised that he bolted, he's practically a rubber band just waiting to snap.

If you are really looking for what to do, get back to basics. Forget about climbing on him for a while and get back to basics. He may be very smart, but I'm sure that his personality is not that different. If you aren't wanting to lunge, then go ahead and hand walk him until he can be calm, work on keeping his attention and helping him to relax. As he relaxes and lets down his defences, you will actually be able to see a lot of physical issues as he lets go of the muscle tension. I would work on fixing those before compromising him further (in his mind) by giving him the extra burden of a rider to worry about. One thing about retraining horses is that you are basically starting with damaged goods. Anything that has been solidifying for a good amount of time will take just as much time or more to fix. You have to dig back up to ground zero before you can progress. Don't get in a hurry with it, you are looking at the problems that the horse has been giving you a hint to for a while now. Good luck.


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## coffeemama (Jul 10, 2009)

LarissaL said:


> Well, here's one. I own an 11 year old OTTB who raced through the end of his 8 year old year. He had 80+ starts and over $100k in winnings for multiple owners and trainers. And he wasn't gelded til late in life.
> 
> I have worked with over 20 other OTTBs directly off the track. Your view of what happens on the track is quite distorted. It's true that POLITE ground manners are not established, but patently untrue that horses run the show. As well, it is untrue that your horse knows about three commands under saddle - honestly, how do you imagine a 112 lb man finesses a horse through a tight pack at 35 mph when his only contact with the animal is his heels and his reins? These things aren't guided missiles that magically find the finish line.
> 
> ...


I would like to chime in after reading all the responses to say "You have made excellent points here with respect/leadership/training and since I actually have now reached the "bad leader" point with my own horse, I have got to start over and it is very clear that I have to make sure my messages are clear and concise and that I am asking him properly instead of giving him mixed messages which happens with alot of riders. He is now to the point like today where he didn't like what we were doing and tried to run for the gate at the arena, I wanted him to stay left and he wanted to go right out the arena gate opening and he began prancing sideways, rearing up over and over and darting side to side until I eventually flew off to avoid being slammed into the rail. Then he got what he wanted, he ran out the arena and straight for the hay bails. I've gotta start from ground zero on this one....but for me, too.


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