# Beginner Rider confused about side passing and canter depart



## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm a beginner ride who can w/t/c fine. I know my diagonals when I'm rising to the trot and I'm focusing on foot falls lately. I've also been working on turning on the forehand and haunches. The lesson horse some times takes advantage of me and I have a hard time with the canter depart. When I give him the canter cue, he isn't cantering until we are at the other end of the arena. My riding instructor wants me to be cantering within a couple of strides of asking. I know it's mostly my fault, but my instructor has also told me that he was blowing me off. She got on him, cantered him a few laps and then let me get back on. He was an angel and listened perfectly.

I think that I'm mixing my side passing cue up with the canter depart cue though. When I'm told to go into a canter, she tells me to open my inside leg and tap with my outside leg behind the girth. The horse usually side passes and increases his speed to a faster trot. So now I'm trying to think of what I'm doing wrong. Can someone please help me?


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

First off, I'm not going to say your trainer is wrong because each can use different cues. However, if I was to use the cue you described, I would expect the horse to sidepass. 

Since she was able to get the horse to do it, that's because she's riding different than you or not using the same cue. The difference in her riding would be caused by confidence and the sincerity of what she asks the horse to do. You, on the other hand, are learning and consequently are showing uncertainty to the horse. The horse then doesn't respond because it's uncertain if you really want it. 

I'm not into english or dressage or arena work but here's the cue that I've known to ask for a canter with a certain lead. First, put your outside leg on farther back to nudge their rear over. This is a precue and gets the horse into position. Then you ask for the canter with your other leg. 

Now if you asked how I get a horse to canter, it would be different. That's because I just trail ride and let the horse choose which lead they go into. You don't want to be cantering around any corners or bends because you never know what's going to be there. We save our cantering for roads and open areas where we go straight so it doesn't matter which lead they are in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

usandpets said:


> First off, I'm not going to say your trainer is wrong because each can use different cues. However, if I was to use the cue you described, I would expect the horse to sidepass.
> 
> Since she was able to get the horse to do it, that's because she's riding different than you or not using the same cue. The difference in her riding would be caused by confidence and the sincerity of what she asks the horse to do. You, on the other hand, are learning and consequently are showing uncertainty to the horse. The horse then doesn't respond because it's uncertain if you really want it.
> 
> ...


I might've been confused of what my instructor was asking of me too. I just get frustrated because she can do it easily and I'm struggling with it so much. I ride Western. How would you ask for the canter with your inside leg? Just put pressure on it?


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

My instructor also made a comment about releasing my cues, which I have a habit of not doing. Could that be why I have a hard time with the canter depart? Maybe the horse is about to go into a canter, but I don't release my inside leg so he doesn't? And maybe that is why my instructor yells out to me to open it?


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

I don't know whether western horses are trained differently to english for canter or whether you're rising in trot (posting) beforehand.

I think your problem lies in the fact you aren't asking for any bend - this is why the horse canters at the end of the straight, where they have to bend to go round the corner.

I would ask for canter just as the outside hind leg is about to leave the ground to swing forward as this is the first stride of canter. Asking in a corner is helpful, but if on the straight then I would ask for a little inward bend on the inside rein holding the outside rein still, then sitting into the trot (ie stop rising) on the next offside hind leg I would ask for canter by swinging my outside leg well back behind the girth and squeezing with BOTH legs briefly.

It ends up as one fluid motion, sit & squeeze and say can-ter - the voice cue is helpful - sit on the "can" and squeeze on the "ter"


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll tell you what I was taught, but I don't follow it so take it with a few pounds of salt...

Imagine the horse's feet form a rectangle. At a sitting trot, use the outside leg to shove his hip over, so the rectangle is now moving across the ground with his inner front leg a little ahead of the outer one. If he sidepasses, move the outer leg further back until his HIP moves. From that position, squeeze both legs to accelerate to a canter, with the inside front leg ahead of the outside front leg.

When prepping to learn to canter, Trooper & I practiced this a lot. But when I eventually asked him to canter, he always took a left lead. That is a flexibility & training issue for him, and we've worked on it for the sake of his physical ability.

However, I'm mostly in the category of not caring what lead the horse chooses. Outside the arena, my turns at a canter would either be very gradual, or unpredictable. Either way, setting a particular lead wouldn't help me much.

On a lesson horse, I'd make sure with my instructor that I'm asking him properly. In my limited experience with lesson horses, some seem inclined to do the wrong thing deliberately so that the instructor will stop them to 'correct the student' while they get to relax.

If I was your instructor - and you probably ought to thank God that I am not! - I'd say, "Goody! He wants to teach you the counter-canter! It is more work for him, and you'll be rougher on his back, but if that is what he wants..." Then I'd let you learn to ride a rough canter, and let the horse learn that he doesn't get a break by doing things wrong.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

The biggest fault most beginner riders make when asking for the canter is 


1...They put whatever aids they are told to do without any authority. In other words you ask pretty please will you canter instead of making the aids as a CANTER...NOW ! type of asking. 

2 They (rider) will lean forward and put the balance forward on the horse so the the horse runs into the canter instead of jumping into it.This is often combined with a drop of contact so the horse runs through the bridle.

3 The above (leaning) combined with long straight lines makes it easy for the horse to run into the canter. Starting the canter (asking) coming into the corner allows the rider a bit more control and the horse less chance to run, so where you ask can either help or hinder your chance of success.

4 I have never heard of canter aids such as your instructor described.

http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/applying-aids-walk-trot-canter-93962/


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

chrisnscully said:


> I don't know whether western horses are trained differently to english for canter or whether you're rising in trot (posting) beforehand.
> 
> I think your problem lies in the fact you aren't asking for any bend - this is why the horse canters at the end of the straight, where they have to bend to go round the corner.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much, but my instructor told me that she would teach me about bending later on, so I don't know much about it. I usually have to ask him on the straight.


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

bsms said:


> I'll tell you what I was taught, but I don't follow it so take it with a few pounds of salt...
> 
> Imagine the horse's feet form a rectangle. At a sitting trot, use the outside leg to shove his hip over, so the rectangle is now moving across the ground with his inner front leg a little ahead of the outer one. If he sidepasses, move the outer leg further back until his HIP moves. From that position, squeeze both legs to accelerate to a canter, with the inside front leg ahead of the outside front leg.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks! My instructor doesn't care what lead I'm on for the most part. She said as long as my canter depart is smooth, that he can suffer through it if he decides to canter on the wrong lead. lol I can definitely tell when he is on the wrong lead, I'm pratically panting when we stop!


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

Spyder said:


> The biggest fault most beginner riders make when asking for the canter is
> 
> 
> 1...They put whatever aids they are told to do without any authority. In other words you ask pretty please will you canter instead of making the aids as a CANTER...NOW ! type of asking.
> ...


 
Thanks, I've actually checked out the thread you linked, but it confuses me. I've been taught to put my outside leg behind the girth. When my instructor wants me to do something else, she will tell me. So when I ask for a canter depart, I should be leaning back?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

SRich said:


> So when I ask for a canter depart, I should be leaning back?


Leaning forward takes away the most important aid you have at your disposal...your seat and it isn't so much as leaning back but sitting deeper which will put more weight on to the horse.

Leaning forward puts all your weight on the forehand of the horse and causes the horse to become front heavy...this only makes it easy for the horse to run into every transition.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

SRich said:


> I might've been confused of what my instructor was asking of me too. I just get frustrated because she can do it easily and I'm struggling with it so much. I ride Western. How would you ask for the canter with your inside leg? Just put pressure on it?


Don't get frustrated, she's been doing it a lot longer than you have and she knows the horse better. She knows his buttons and exactly how hard and where she has to push them. You don't...yet.

Give yourself time, you'll get there.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

It sounds like your trainer does the same as my western trainer did. Think of it as 'opening the door' when she has you take your inside leg off the horse. Basically, you're telling him to go through that door with his inside leg. You lift your rein hand (s) and sit down deep. Take your inside leg slightly off and ask for the canter with your outside leg. My horses have been so thoroughly trained this way that if I forget and try to go back to the more hunter style I was trained in, I'll get the wrong lead every time. As long as my inside leg is off the horse, perfect. 

I also wear spurs (round ball equitation style) so if one of them tries to 'blow me off' I can spur or hit with the poppper end of my romels. If one is really bad, I'll ride with a crop in my back pocket just in case, I rarely have to use it. 

For me, the difficulty in getting the canter/lope right was remembering the whole sequence and doing it correctly. Once I got that straight, it was a piece of cake.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

SRich said:


> ...So when I ask for a canter depart, I should be leaning back?


Again, take my posts with a huge grain of salt...

Trooper may have a tough time with a right lead, but he's very good at exploding into a canter - if indeed that is good. I generally take a few strides to try to get as deep into the saddle as I can. For me, that means a conscious effort to pry my knees apart, try to let my legs stretch, and what feels like leaning back (but really isn't). Then I DO lean forward some, say something like "Let's GO!" - and he jumps forward into a canter. That effort to get deep gives him a pretty good hint that we're about to canter soon.

My 13 hand mustang, OTOH, just doesn't have the power to do that. He makes a quick shift, but his canter is very smooth and he is just too small to make me feel any concern for staying on - even tho I ride him in a flatter jump saddle. But being a short wheelbase model, he can turn up his own butthole - so that doesn't mean I can take him for granted.

I like my horse to canter extended at a near gallop, so I don't mind leaning forward during the canter and trying to match our balance points. The western instructors I've had frown on it, but my horses seem happier that way. With the mustang, there is very little lean, more with the Appy. I do try to practice some of the time at staying straight in the saddle at a canter. I think both are good to know. The Aussie saddle I normally use with Trooper seems designed to put me more forward. With my Circle Y, I'm more likely to stay straight up - it wasn't meant for leaning forward.

For now, I'd listen to your instructor. She knows how you ride, knows your horse, and can give you better advice.


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

1. Asking for some bend frees the horses shoulder up and makes it easier for them to go into canter.

2. Timing is crucial - ask when the outside hind is lifting off the ground - that is the ONLY time you can influence the horse's gait.

3. Find a better instructor - they should teach you bend before they teach canter!


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

Spyder said:


> Leaning forward takes away the most important aid you have at your disposal...your seat and it isn't so much as leaning back but sitting deeper which will put more weight on to the horse.
> 
> Leaning forward puts all your weight on the forehand of the horse and causes the horse to become front heavy...this only makes it easy for the horse to run into every transition.


Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I will try to sit deeper next time I try to canter. 



smrobs said:


> Don't get frustrated, she's been doing it a lot longer than you have and she knows the horse better. She knows his buttons and exactly how hard and where she has to push them. You don't...yet.
> 
> Give yourself time, you'll get there.


Thanks for the encouraging words! I hope to one day ride like my instructor. 



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> It sounds like your trainer does the same as my western trainer did. Think of it as 'opening the door' when she has you take your inside leg off the horse. Basically, you're telling him to go through that door with his inside leg. You lift your rein hand (s) and sit down deep. Take your inside leg slightly off and ask for the canter with your outside leg. My horses have been so thoroughly trained this way that if I forget and try to go back to the more hunter style I was trained in, I'll get the wrong lead every time. As long as my inside leg is off the horse, perfect.
> 
> I also wear spurs (round ball equitation style) so if one of them tries to 'blow me off' I can spur or hit with the poppper end of my romels. If one is really bad, I'll ride with a crop in my back pocket just in case, I rarely have to use it.
> 
> For me, the difficulty in getting the canter/lope right was remembering the whole sequence and doing it correctly. Once I got that straight, it was a piece of cake.


Thanks! My instructor told me that I have to know what I'm going to do before I actually do it, like think it all through.


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

bsms said:


> For now, I'd listen to your instructor. She knows how you ride, knows your horse, and can give you better advice.


Thanks for all of your help! And yes, I always listen to my instructor. I was just asking for help, that way I don't annoy my instructor with so many questions. :lol:



chrisnscully said:


> 1. Asking for some bend frees the horses shoulder up and makes it easier for them to go into canter.
> 
> 2. Timing is crucial - ask when the outside hind is lifting off the ground - that is the ONLY time you can influence the horse's gait.
> 
> 3. Find a better instructor - they should teach you bend before they teach canter!


I understand the concept of bending, I'm just working on other things in my riding right now. I've been riding for 9 or 10 months and I think that I'm progressing well. You are obviously more experienced than I am, but I have to disagree about your third point. From what I've been told, it's good when you learn how to canter early on, in case the horse spooks and bolts. I would be much safer and less afraid if I could sit the canter, which I can do well enough.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

SRich said:


> Thanks so much, but my instructor told me that she would teach me about bending later on, so I don't know much about it. I usually have to ask him on the straight.


I'm feeling uneasy about your instructor, I've never come across one who asks you as a novice to pick up the canter on the straight, the most usual time is to ask as you come onto the first corner at the short end of the arena, gives you two corners to get it right before the starightaway.



SRich said:


> Thanks! My instructor doesn't care what lead I'm on for the most part. She said as long as my canter depart is smooth, that he can suffer through it if he decides to canter on the wrong lead. lol I can definitely tell when he is on the wrong lead, I'm pratically panting when we stop!


I can see what she is getting at there, s smooth depart then keep the canter is maybe better than worrying to much about your lead and having to drop out when you get it wrong.

Why are you panting when you stop if he is on the wrong lead?

OK, is there a round pen where you are, or can your instructor lunge you? It's a great way to learn about getting good departs and sitting deep and riding the canter, while not having to worry about steering, or that niggle that you are being run away with. So often when you are learning, or in my case re learning you end up leaning forward and letting the horse drop his front end, worrying that you are going/going to go to fast so you end up asking for stop and go at the same time, or you get to worried about the WHERE you are going rather than the HOW.

If you strip away all the other things you can just concentrate on your seat and the feeling of the horse, riding departs with your eyes closed so you can fell the right lead, all these are good thing sto do.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Just to make you feel better, getting a good canter depart for a novice rider is a very common problem. And Spyder mentioned the leaning forward and having the horse rush into the canter (which will cause a novice to lose their seat and grip up with their legs, or haul on the reins) is a very common problem.

Sit back a bit and think of "scooping" your horse up and pushing them ahead of you. Like squeezing a tube of tooth paste, but more of it coming from good, strong core muscles.


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> I'm feeling uneasy about your instructor, I've never come across one who asks you as a novice to pick up the canter on the straight, the most usual time is to ask as you come onto the first corner at the short end of the arena, gives you two corners to get it right before the starightaway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Ok, gotta clear a couple of things up here, due to wording on my part. My instructor doesn't always have me start him at the canter on the straight. We also try on corners.

She will tell me if I'm on the wrong lead, and I will drop out and try again. But, if the horse keeps switching or picking up the wrong lead, she will just let him canter. Lol about the panting, I was just joking. I'm more tired when I'm counter cantering though. It takes a lot out of me to keep him at a canter, I'm constantly pushing him forward. He can be lazy.

I've had lunge lessons before. They did help me, but the horse doesn't act up when she's controlling him. He will listen perfectly. It's not about the lead, it's more like Spyder said. He will run into the canter, making it very unsmooth. I've had him jump in it before, and it feels much better!

I've come to the conclusions after what you all have told me, that I need to relax, sit deep and then ask. I usually get all worked up about the canter, because I know he wont listen to me.


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> Just to make you feel better, getting a good canter depart for a novice rider is a very common problem. And Spyder mentioned the leaning forward and having the horse rush into the canter (which will cause a novice to lose their seat and grip up with their legs, or haul on the reins) is a very common problem.
> 
> Sit back a bit and think of "scooping" your horse up and pushing them ahead of you. Like squeezing a tube of tooth paste, but more of it coming from good, strong core muscles.


 
Thanks!! I'll try very hard next lesson to get an awesome canter depart. Just gotta think to myself to sit deep. I have no problem sitting the canter, I actually find it one of the easiest gaits.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

chrisnscully said:


> 1. Asking for some bend frees the horses shoulder up and makes it easier for them to go into canter.
> 
> 2. Timing is crucial - ask when the outside hind is lifting off the ground - that is the ONLY time you can influence the horse's gait.
> 
> 3. Find a better instructor - they should teach you bend before they teach canter!


Bends and leads are fine for an arena, but don't matter on the straights or outside the arena. When getting started at cantering, I think there is a lot to be said for just doing it regardless of lead first. Once the person is comfortable with the canter, teaching how to choose the lead makes sense. It sounds like that is where SRich is at.

Timing makes things go smoother, but most horses can figure it out even if asked at a slightly wrong time. Asking for a canter 0.5 seconds off from the optimum shouldn't confuse the horse. I honestly don't think my horses care when they are asked - all it normally takes is for me to settle & say, "Let's GO!" They then go as soon as able, which sure isn't very long for Trooper!

I grant that with time and experience, those are great things to refine, but I sure as heck wouldn't quit on an instructor because she isn't trying to get me to do it all from the very beginning!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SRich said:


> I've come to the conclusions after what you all have told me, that I need to relax, sit deep and then ask. I usually get all worked up about the canter, because I know he wont listen to me.


That's a normal novice reaction, to get the adrenaline flowing and to try to rush into it. When she says, "CANTER", take a deep breath and think your way through what needs to happen, sit deep while you're doing the thinking and once you've thunklol your way through it, ASK very deliberately and KNOW that he WILL DO IT and he'll feel your resolve and will start doing it.


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Generally I wouldn't expect an instructor to ask a beginner to ask for canter except in a corner - that way the bend is usually there anyway as the beginner asks for the turn with the reins rather than the seat.

I don't see what the issue is with learning to bend the horse it is part of turning anyway.

What I do find is that many instructors don't actually teach to a program or syllabus - often the teaching is fairly haphazard!


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

chrisnscully said:


> Generally I wouldn't expect an instructor to ask a beginner to ask for canter except in a corner - that way the bend is usually there anyway as the beginner asks for the turn with the reins rather than the seat.
> 
> I don't see what the issue is with learning to bend the horse it is part of turning anyway.
> 
> ...


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Lol - a turn on the forehand is where the front stays still and the back end swings round 180 degrees.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

SRich said:


> chrisnscully said:
> 
> 
> > Generally I wouldn't expect an instructor to ask a beginner to ask for canter except in a corner - that way the bend is usually there anyway as the beginner asks for the turn with the reins rather than the seat.
> ...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

chrisnscully said:


> Generally I wouldn't expect an instructor to ask a beginner to ask for canter except in a corner - that way the bend is usually there anyway as the beginner asks for the turn with the reins rather than the seat.
> 
> I don't see what the issue is with learning to bend the horse it is part of turning anyway...


In an arena, leads are important because we're normally turning in one direction. For 'real world' use, outside the arena, trotting and canter leads aren't worth a whole lot. 

Writing from the perspective of someone who learned to intentionally canter this fall (vs transiting a canter as my mare accelerated on a bolt), I wasted a lot of time trying to learn how to ask for a lead. As it turned out, the horse I used hadn't cantered either for over a year, and only a couple of times in the previous 4 years. Since we were both in many ways cantering for the first time, worrying about leads was counterproductive for me. It made the whole thing a much bigger deal than either of us were ready to handle.

I would have been better served by just entering a canter on whatever lead, and focus on getting comfortable with the motion of the canter. Only then would it have helped to learn about asking for a lead. And in fact, Trooper will ALWAYS choose the left lead unless a very tight turn forces him to take a right lead. He is improving, and he likes to canter, but it is a work in progress.

That differs from the lesson horse SRich is using, so I'm guessing the problem is just that the pressure from the outside leg to move the rear end over just isn't far enough back, or perhaps is a bit too gentle compared to what the lesson horse is used to. That would explain the attempted sidepass by the lesson horse.

From the sound of it, SRich is learning in the progression I wish I had learned with, rather than having it all tossed at me prior to my first canter. That makes me think kindly about the instructor.

BTW - Trooper's problem is the one Spyder mentions in the above post. He is very stiff on one side, so we're doing a lot of balanced turns at a walk and trot - trying for a circle rather than a pentagon - to loosen him up enough so that he can pick up a right lead and feel comfortable doing so. He is an ex-ranch horse who was used to herd sheep and cattle.


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks for explaining this all to me everyone!  I definitely know that the horse i ride isn't stiff. I've seen others ride him and do more advanced work. He also isn't heavy on the forehand. He usually pushes off his haunches and jumps into transitions. And wait, is turning on the forehand and turning the forehand different? I feel so stupid, but at least I'm trying to learn. Also, wouldn't the turn bend the horse? I think that BSMS is right on about what is wrong. My instructor tells me I have to be more confident and assertive with my aids and cues.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Don't feel stupid, you are just learning. The most important thing is that you _want_ to learn.

A forehand turn is where the front legs stay in the same place and the butt pivots around them. A haunch turn is where the butt stays planted and the front end pivots around it.

If you watch any youtube videos of reining, the spins that they do? Those are basically really advanced haunch turns.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If you turn ON something, that is the part that supports the weight and creates the pivot point.

Horses can turn without bending. Trooper has a lifetime of doing it. If you simply cue a right turn around a pylon, he makes a pentagon shape. His shoulder will fall into the center, and his nose will turn outside to balance him. We've had to practice walking and trotting in circles of various sizes, using the inside rein to support his shoulder, tip his nose to the inside, and support his body with the inside leg.

Now that we've practiced it, he is starting to do it on his own.

Allison Finch explains it much better here (post 8):

http://www.horseforum.com/english-r...e-posting-correct-diagnol-109080/#post1303568

The trainer working with my mare Mia has been using a lunge line and then drive reins to teach her to turn more balanced. She is such a klutz that it is scary riding her in a bolt because you always wonder if she is about to fall. In November, she was started back at the very beginning of training - yield to pressure, learn about bits, sacking out, etc. When the trainer saw her trying to turn, she decided she wasn't willing to get on her without first working on her balance and flexibility in a turn. Nice to know about a horse that was sold to me as good for a beginner, and that I rode for 3 years before deciding she was a danger to herself and me...


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

I know it isn't "necessary" to choose canter leads on the trail but it IS good practice to alternate canter leads frequently to maintain a balance in the horse - just as you would change reins if working in a school / arena. If you come to a bend in the trail then it helps the horse's balance if you are on the correct lead.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

SRich said:


> Thanks for explaining this all to me everyone!  I definitely know that the horse i ride isn't stiff. I've seen others ride him and do more advanced work. He also isn't heavy on the forehand. He usually pushes off his haunches and jumps into transitions. And wait, is turning on the forehand and turning the forehand different? I feel so stupid, but at least I'm trying to learn. Also, wouldn't the turn bend the horse? I think that BSMS is right on about what is wrong. *My instructor tells me I have to be more confident and assertive with my aids and cues*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 From my first post: "Since she was able to get the horse to do it, that's because she's riding different than you or not using the same cue. The difference in her riding would be caused by *confidence and the sincerity* of what she asks the horse to do. *You, on the other hand, are learning and consequently are showing uncertainty to the horse.* The horse then doesn't respond because it's uncertain if you really want it."

Pretty much in the same.

Now if your trainer doesn't care which lead you are in, here's what I do to ask for a canter. Squeeze both legs. If no response or doesn't go into the canter, squeeze again and kiss. Nothing again I would repeat and smack their butt with the reins or a crop. Depending on if I was asking from a stand still, walk or trot, the squeeze would be greater at a stand still and be less at the trot. I want to create the energy for the horse to move off. At the stand still, you need more to get to the canter compared to if you were trotting. 

I've also known some people and some horses that use the number of squeezes or bumps to indicate which gate to go into. One for walk, two for trot and three to canter. This would all depend on how the horse was trained. Since the trainer knows how to cue the horse the way it was trained, I would try to go with what they say. However, if it doesn't work for you, try one of the other ways I said just to get the horse to respond to you.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

chrisnscully said:


> I know it isn't "necessary" to choose canter leads on the trail but it IS good practice to alternate canter leads frequently to maintain a balance in the horse - just as you would change reins if working in a school / arena. If you come to a bend in the trail then it helps the horse's balance if you are on the correct lead.


 Very true about being in the correct lead for the horse for a turn/bend in the trail. However, that is only if you have a clear view around the bend. At least around here that is not typical, so I would not recommend for anyone to canter around a bend in the trail. You never know what or whom you may come across on the other side.


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## SRich (Sep 13, 2011)

usandpets- Thanks so much for all of your help! It's hard for me to reply with my phone and find my way around the replies to figure out who said what. I do appreciate it a lot.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

usandpets said:


> Very true about being in the correct lead for the horse for a turn/bend in the trail. However, that is only if you have a clear view around the bend. At least around here that is not typical, so I would not recommend for anyone to canter around a bend in the trail. You never know what or whom you may come across on the other side.


Many of our best cantering places are on wide grassy tracks on the edge of crop fields so a clear view round the corner of the field is normal. I would always just walk round a blind corner - don't want to bump into any scary monsters going any faster!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hmmm...I've now ridden a fair bit of cantering on the wrong lead, including turns. While it is undoubtedly more efficient to canter a turn on the correct lead, I've seen no sign the horse's balance is impaired on the wrong lead.

For a sharp turn, the horse needs to be on the correct lead or he just won't make it - in my experience. But for a 180 that is perhaps 50 feet across, I've seen no signs of balance problems. There aren't many places where I would want to canter a turn faster than that. Unless the horse is trained to change leads on command - and mine are all a LONG way from being ready for that, and so is the rider! - you either canter with all turns in the same direction, or let the horse choose his lead.

In an arena, we're working on cantering figure 8s, so our direction of turn changes pretty regularly. My mustang is good about changing as needed, while my Appy seems content to turn on the wrong lead. If I ask him for a turn that is more than he can handle, he drops to a trot in the turn. I know him well enough to know he'll give me an honest effort. He knows me well enough to know I won't get upset if he needs to drop a gait to keep his balance. He'll go back to a canter when the turn opens up enough for him to handle it. And he is improving with time...


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Absolutely nothing wrong with counter canter - shallow loops are usually counter cantered in the school. 

Flying changes aren't necessary either - just dropping back to trot and asking for canter on the other leg is easy enough. You train flying changes by reducing the number of trot strides until the horse will change leads just on the aid for the other lead.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

chrisnscully said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with counter canter - shallow loops are usually counter cantered in the school.
> 
> Flying changes aren't necessary either - just dropping back to trot and asking for canter on the other leg is easy enough. You train flying changes by reducing the number of trot strides until the horse will change leads just on the aid for the other lead.



From what I gather bsms's horse drops to trot simply because it loses balance.

It is also not doing a counter canter for to be called a counter canter there is an expectation the the horse would be bent correctly. It is IMO just doing a canter on a lead not conducive to maintaining a balance, in other words what we would call a wrong lead canter.

But it is horses of this type and training (not necessarily bsms's horse) that a new owner will come here asking..."why does my horse only want to canter on one lead, I can't get him on the other". Then we try to explain to them that the previous owner didn't care what lead it went on or if it cross canter or anything...as long as it ....ummmmm _did go._


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## chrisnscully (Apr 19, 2010)

Counter-Canter. This is a movement where the rider, for instance on a circle to the left, deliberately makes his horse canter with the right canter lead (with the right fore leading). The counter-canter is a balancing movement. The horse maintains his natural flexion at the poll to the outside of the circle, and the horse is positioned to the side of the leading leg. His conformation does not permit his spine to be bent to the line of the circle. The rider avoiding any contortion causing contraction and disorder should especially endeavour to limit the deviation of the quarters to the outside of the circle and restrict his demands according to the degree of suppleness of the horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Just for the record: I think all horses should be capable of cantering on either lead, and a good rider ought to be able to cue them for the correct lead. However, being a bit of a newbie myself, and with an ex-ranch horse who had some pretty awful use in his life, I can understand where either a rider or horse would be allowed to canter on the wrong lead until they are better at cantering. I'm one of four riders for Trooper, so working on his flexibility is an uphill battle in some ways.

The picture of Trooper below was taken maybe two months after we got him. You can still see the damage where some butthead on a ranch (I refuse to call whoever did it a cowboy) spurred him bloody (plus the saddle marks on his withers, both sides). Four years later, the hole on his left side has healed, but the one on his right is still scar tissue.










That is also why I like to cue him to accelerate with kissing sounds. He is still very sensitive about his sides. I decided to learn cantering on him because I trusted his good will. Now we *BOTH* need to progress...one step at a time.


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