# Shoeing and Barefoot research ask or answer.



## angelsgrace (Apr 30, 2009)

Hello, 
I'm currently doing some research on shoeing horses and Leaving them barefoot.
And i would love to know what you do with all your horses and why for example I would like to know what sort of supplements you give them for their hooves any sort of hoof oil or soak you may use, Do you shoe them or leave them barefoot how often do you get their feet trimmed or shod, What sort of work they do, And there type of hoof I.E soft medium or hard colour of the hoof what sort of terrain do they live and exercise in. And why you shoe or leave them barefoot etc.
I'll start,
My first horse Crystal 7-8 years old 15.1hh Stock horse Quarter horse cross, Used in barrel racing jumping dressage and mustering, Worked daily and on weekends worked rather hard (all day rides etc). She has soft sensitive feet and they are white even though that is a myth, She gets megamin hoof supplement and her feet trimmed every 8-9 weeks no shoeing,
She lives in a large pasture which is rotated every two months or so and is worked on roads in sand, dirt and grass.

Angel Brumby mare 14.2hh 20 years old Used in jumping mustering and trail riding some pony club too, She gets worked every second day at medium work because she recovering from a micro tare she sustained two years ago,
she also gets megamin and her feet trimmed every 8-9weeks no shoeing.
Her feet are hard and black with a small well set frog.
She gets worked in the same terrain as crystal.

I'll do my others later 

Plz reply


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## Zora (Mar 18, 2010)

Our horses are barefoot, they don't get any supplements but my 24 year old mare might try something in the summer.
I trim my horses feet myself and the two mini horses. The farrier does our 5 year old mare because her feet grow fast and are kind of tough to trim.
I trail ride about 5 to 6 days a week mostly barefoot, but use front renegade boots for the rocky trails.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

angelsgrace said:


> Hello,
> I'm currently doing some research on shoeing horses and Leaving them barefoot.
> And i would love to know what you do with all your horses and why for example I would like to know what sort of supplements you give them for their hooves any sort of hoof oil or soak you may use, Do you shoe them or leave them barefoot how often do you get their feet trimmed or shod, What sort of work they do, And there type of hoof I.E soft medium or hard colour of the hoof what sort of terrain do they live and exercise in. And why you shoe or leave them barefoot etc.
> I'll start,
> ...


Okay here goes...I have quite a few so I'll do just some of them. I prefer for them to be barefoot, but do have a couple that are shod for showing purposes. All of them go 8 wks, except for 2. All of them are on orchard/bluegrass pasture those that aren't 24/7 get orchard/alfalfa hay at night. Easy terrain. I spent my childhood picking up rocks on the farm for my grandpa so there aren't many left 20+ years later :wink: I do trail ride on occasion and boot them. 

Hondo - 29 yo stallion, had a very long & successful AQHA show career. I ride him 4 times a week, 1 hr each just to stay in shape. He also gets ridden 3 times a wk by my soon to be 6 yr old daughter. Gets daily turnout in a 3 acre stud lot, comes in at night. Has great feet. No shoes. No hoof supplements.

Jana - 23 yo mare, my retired youth reining horse, was also shown HUS, Jumping, all speed events, team penning, trail & showmanship. I ride her 6 hrs a wk to stay in shape & tuned up, 4 hrs of lessons and the occasional moving the neighbors cattle or trail ride. She is going back into the reining pen for a young rider at AQHA & open shows so she is getting sliding plates put on this week. Will have screw in cleats made so she can also be ridden on the trail.. She is on 24/7 turnout & a ration balancer. No hoof supplements. 

Buttons - 22 yo mare, retired youth wp horse & broodmare. Also used for beginner lessons 6 hrs a week, I rarely ride her as she is the same horse every time  Shown walk/trot by my daughter. Same turnout/balancer as Jana. She is shod & is trimmed & reset every 5 wks. 

Lacey - 9 yo mare, ex working & roping horse & hubby's trail horse. Just had her first foal. Started light riding yesterday to get her back in shape after foaling. Daily turnout & in at night. Fed Ultium Growth, no hoof supplements. 
Merit - foal, not 2 wks old. Hooves cleaned daily, will get first farrier visit at 8 wks for learning purposes mostly. 

Pella - yearling filly. Daily pasture, stalled at night. Fed Ultium Growth & is on DAC Foundation Formula for her hooves. We supplement them until 2 for a good healthy start. 

Woodstock - 4 yo stallion. Limited turnout & exercise due to re-injuring a tendon. Stalled, 4 hrs turnout in small 1/2 acre lot but does have grass, daily handwalking for 1 hr am & pm. Fed Purina Strategy GX & Smart Pak Smarttendon repair. Would be shod w/plates if he had not been injured and training stopped  

The rest are all similar. Hope that helps and wasn't too long :lol:


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Why didn't that cross my mind when I added my answer about my horses. I'm not dead set either way & have both. Thinking I should un-subscribe or my blackberry will be dinging all day :lol:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

OP, to actually answer your question before we continue on our tangent, I have 3 horses, 2 who are barefoot and 1 who is shod. 

I go with whatever works best for the individual animal in question. I prefer barefoot, but knew when I took on a TB it would be unlikely he could ever go without shoes. He's perfectly sound when shod, but barefoot he gimps, so he has shoes.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I have 2 horses. Both are barefoot (and have always been barefoot) but one is either getting boots or front shoes this summer. He's constantly tender on gravel and I'm tired of his pain and trying to keep him out of the glass encrusted ditches. 

24/7 turnout. Very minimal grain, 2-3% of their body weight per day in hay, good quality pasture. Gelding is getting a hoof supplement SmartHoof I believe to see if that helps his ouchiness. 

Ok... 

Now can I have a Mojito? Please pass the popcorn too!


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## jyuukai (Apr 19, 2011)

It's actually in the rule book for my horses breed association that no horses are to be shod. Well, I mean I guess you can shoe them but if they catch you with shoes on the sanctioned showgrounds you're in trouble 
That being said I rode a QH mare that HAD to have shoes. I tried my best to keep her barefoot and her feet would just fall apart and she'd be dead lame. she was on all sorts of supplements, I tried hardeners, softeners, sealants, anything. She could NOT be barefoot


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i agree with speed racer. i have 7 horses, 2 are babies (2yo and 1yo) so obv bare. i have 2 TBs that are bare, 1 TB that i tried bare in every possible way with boots, supps, extended t/o, special hoof trimming methods, etc., and he was miserable so he's shod in front (bare behind, and bare all around for winter). i have a clyde cross that is usually bare but his leg confo leaves something to be desired so he is shod as needed based on his showing and work schedule, and i have an arab that's bare but will go in boots if we do any intensive trail riding.

i prefer bare, but not all horses are comfortable that way. my tb was lame all the time for YEARS and absolutely miserable and even the boots - from boas to easy boots, etc. didn't give him relief. and since we tried it for over 6 years, i'd say he was given more than enough time to adjust lol. to each his own.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

jyuukai said:


> It's actually in the r*ule book for my horses breed association* that no horses are to be shod. Well, I mean I guess you can shoe them but if they catch you with shoes on the sanctioned showgrounds you're in trouble
> That being said I rode a QH mare that HAD to have shoes. I tried my best to keep her barefoot and her feet would just fall apart and she'd be dead lame. she was on all sorts of supplements, I tried hardeners, softeners, sealants, anything. She could NOT be barefoot


Which breed association is this?


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I hear the train!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

All of mine are bare. They all have good quality grass hay (rationed not free-choice) during the winter and early spring, and are on pasture 24/7 late spring through late fall. Free choice salt and mineral.

15-year-old Percheron cross gelding was shod for the first three years that I owned him. He could not walk across a gravel driveway if he lost a shoe. I (very skeptically) decided to try barefoot with him and after a year of rehabbing he was, and still is, sound to hack or drive on our local gravel backroads, as well as the trails in the area. 

11 year old and five year old Canadian mares have always been barefoot and have breed-typical, rock-hard hooves.

Weanling Percheron/Oldenburg is of course bare. He gets his diet supplemented with some beet pulp and a bit of a yearling pelleted feed.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

:rofl: @ mbender, SR, and all you guys.

Nd, I am also curious about which association that is, just for curiosity's sake.

Most of mine are kept barefoot year around with scheduled 8 week maintenance trims since most of them are turned out for retirement. In the winter, they are all barefoot. However, in the summer, the horses that get used often get shoes. We do a lot of hard riding, sometimes at high speed, over varying terrain while doing cattle work and a barefoot horse would end up with numerous stone bruises. All but two of them have good hard feet but running down a rocky road after a cow will bruise even the toughest feet. 

One with not so great feet is my 2 year old QHxBelgian, they are soft and fall apart if he runs on hard ground too much. He'll probably have to have shoes when I start riding him.

The other is one that is only pasture sound barefoot and for him to be riding sound, he requires shoes (and pads if I am going to ride on rocks larger than pea-gravel). He has really thin soled, flat, TB type feet and he is a bit of a weenie when it comes to walking on anything that's not soft grass or sand.

All my green horses get shoes after they are started under saddle because I take them over pretty tough country and I'm usually traveling at either a long trot or a lope almost daily. The last thing I need is for a horse in training to get a stone bruise that turns into an abscess so they all get shod.

The older horses in the pasture get free choice alfalfa/grass mix hay and the younger horses in the 'jenny craig' paddock just get grass hay. No special feeds, no hoof supplements, no grains.

I, like others, am of a mind that you should do what your horse is most comfortable with. Some horses simply cannot go barefoot on any kind of terrain that isn't rock-free and soft, others go great barefoot their entire lives and never take a lame step. The horse's comfort is much more important than strictly following some particular frame of mind.


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

smrobs said:


> :rofl: @ mbender, SR, and all you guys.
> 
> Nd, I am also curious about which association that is, just for curiosity's sake.


It looks like jyuukai's horse is a Miniature, so possibly that registry? It would make sense.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

All of mine are barefoot. They get pasture/hay depending on the time of year and free-choice salt/mineral. I think being barefoot is healthier when possible, but if any of mine showed signs of needing shoes they would get them. Thankfully they are all sound and going strong with the type of trails we ride.

Haflinger - 2 front black hooves and 2 back white hooves. Never worn shoes in his life.

Draft cross - striped hooves, also never worn shoes in his life. Tends to want to flare a bit, but keeping him on a tighter trim schedule than the others keeps that in check (he is on 4-6 week schedule while the others can go 6-8). 

Grade ? - 3 black hooves and one white. He is only 2 so we have not ridden him so if he needs shoes or not is still left to be seen. He is also the only one that gets feed in addition to his hay/pasture. 

These are just leisure/trail horses. They are not high performance horses and do not have highly demanding jobs. If we changed what we asked from them their hoof needs might change as well.


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## AQHA13 (Apr 19, 2017)

I do trail riding with my mare, usually 4-10miles at a time over varied terrain. The ground is usually hard compact dirt with rocks. We ride 3-5 times per week in the summer. I would say that her work load is about medium~ish. We don't give any hoof supplements, but we do use _Rain Makers Hoof Oil Moisturizer_ certain times of the year. I also use easyboots on her front feet if the terrain is really bad or our ride will be especially long.

She is barefoot and I rasp her feet usually once a week to keep a "mustang roll" on them, but other than that she wears them to the appropriate length. She has one black hoof, two striped, and one white hoof.



​


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## angelsgrace (Apr 30, 2009)

Thank you everyone for your answers very helpful, I'd also like to know what your veiws are on shoeing and barefoot i know it changes depending on the horses needs but I would still like to know what you think, No judgement I promise.

I'm my opinion If a horse is young they should be given a chance for their feet to develop most horses in my experience can be barefoot from birth to retirement but it really does depend on the horse, Take off the track TB's for example because they are shod for racing alot have trouble being barefoot simply because thats what they are used to.
Shoeing has it's place and when my horses have needed them they got them no questions asked (crystal chipped her hoof and the chip spread up along the hoof and started to bleed so i cleaned it and called the farrier and vet because i was sure it had turned into a slight abbess and she need shoeing because of that)
I also have a Clydie cross who doesn't get worked much because he is older and still recovering from bad owners in the past, but if he was worked as hard as my others, yes i would probably shoe him because of the pressure on his feet.

But in most cases where i live horses are better off barefoot because of bloodflow and the fact that shoeing does weaken hooves but their some that do need it but in my opinion half the time horses don't need shoes to sound happy and healthy but i don't know any of your cases and if someone is doing or at least trying to the right for their horse they are saints i've seen so many horses hurt by bad owners or just ones who don't know what to do it's so great see people who really love and look after them.
 thank you Ireland


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

Personally for me it depends on the horse. All of our horses get shoes on for the late spring/summer/fall. Depending on the horse we will take the shoes off in the winter or put snow pads on the horses if we need to keep the shoes on. I have had horses that don't need shoes. Even the horses that have shoes on now have gone barefoot at one point or another depending on what their work load has been. 

We do a lot of road riding, gravel and pavement so shoes are a must have. I believe that if you aren't riding the horse in terrain that will not wear the foot out to quickly and they aren't in pain then you don't have to worry about shoes. If however you are riding the horse a lot or in areas that will wear the foot out or cause pain then you should put the shoes on. It's better to keep them sound then to worry about whats "natural". 

We don't give supplements, our horses are just on 24/7 pasture.


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

Well I'm probably going to start some sort of debate with my reply, but oh well. My horses are barefoot, and by that I mean I have a Natural Hoofcare Practitioner (NHP) come and trim their hooves every 6-8 weeks. I do not use a farrier because if you ask them to leave your horse barefoot, you are going to get a pasture trim. A pasture trim, while the horse may not be wearing shoes, is not a true barefoot trim. With the NHP, my horses are trimmed to imitate a wild mustangs hooves. They are hard and strong with no cracks, flares or lameness. Mustangs wear their hooves down on varying terrain and never have the lameness issues that are recurring with our domestic horses. You don't see navicular, ringbone, club foot, flares, cracks etc., with a wild horses' hoof. With NHP you get the same thing. No horse actually needs to have shoes, traditional farriers just ruin horses feet by thinning the hoof wall, reducing hoof/leg circulation, and taking away full flex and function of every part of the hoof. Bella, my 14 year old QH mare was VERY lame on front with swelling and pain in her knees, while she had shoes and was trimmed by a farrier. After the few trims by an NHP, her swelling and pain was gone and she was no longer lame. I'm a firm believer in REAL barefoot trimming by a certified and educated NHP. Some people are no-believers and insist that their horse needs shoes, I know better now that I've actually tried it and had it work for me and my horses.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

The train has arrived :0)


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

jyuukai said:


> It's actually in the rule book for my horses breed association that no horses are to be shod.


Another one curious as to what rule book this is.




Hunter65 said:


> The train has arrived :0)


Laugh.


I have three; 1 retired old man, 1 5yo who does very light work, 1 5yo who I hope to drive on the roads and ride regularly all summer. Right now all three are barefoot. The two younger horses both have great rock crunching feet that my farrier thinks can easily stay barefoot for what I plan to do with them.
The old man might need his shoes put back on once the ground gets hard again this summer. He is not even pasture sound barefoot.
Their trimming schedule varies depending on season and work load between six and eight weeks.

I agree with SR that I prefer my horses barefoot but I will do whatever an individual requires.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Hmm... That's interesting that wild horse's don't have any problems with their hooves....

Those scientists that found all those abormal hooves in those wild horses recently must be liars... Or possibly idiots.

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2010/11/187.shtml

My gelding is maintained by myself and a certified farrier and natural trimmer. I do most of the trimming by myself now and he helps me or critiques me as necessary. Doesn't change the fact that Soda is intolerant of gravel while barefoot. He's been barefoot his entire life too and being trimmed by natural hoof trimmers for at least the last 4 years.


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Hmm... That's interesting that wild horse's don't have any problems with their hooves....
> 
> Those scientists that found all those abormal hooves in those wild horses recently must be liars... Or possibly idiots.
> 
> Hoof problems common in wild horses - study | Horsetalk.co.nz - International horse news


There are always conflicting studies with every subject. Scientists are always conducting studies that prove eachother wrong and themselves right.

Natural Hoof Care by Jason Darrah - Mustang Hoof
Why Use the Wild Horse Model?
Mustang Hooves
HealthyHoof
mustang_roll
Bare Foot Horse
Farrier Pasture Trim and Natural Trim: see the differences in detail.
GO Barefoot!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Dutch, I am far more willing to believe a study that admits there is not all one great-ness to the hoof of wild horse than a study that claims there is a universal marvelous-ness to them.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

This is where I have a problem with what you wrote.

"Mustangs wear their hooves down on varying terrain and *never have the lameness issues that are recurring with our domestic horses*. You don't see navicular, ringbone, club foot, flares, cracks etc., with a wild horses' hoof. "

It's with the word NEVER. Yes I am being nit-picky. The words "ALWAYS & NEVER" have a very very small place in the horse/animal world. 

Some horses do NEED shoes. Period. Some horses don't need shoes. Period.

Of course there is conflicting evidence on the shod vs barefoot battle. Because horses are INDIVIDUALS. What works for one doesn't always work for another. I'm not saying that every wild horse has hoof problems, some have great hooves. Others have terrible hooves. Same thing with domestic horses. 

:lol: I knew I shouldn't have come into this thread, but sometimes I just can't help myself.... *stepping away* :lol:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> It's with the word NEVER. Yes I am being nit-picky. The words "ALWAYS & NEVER" have a very very small place in the horse/animal world.


Anyone who is even slightly logical in their thinking has to agree with this.

I can some what ignore the incorrect use of never and always by individuals here, etc. But in a publication or a report it does not belong unless the report is trying to exaggerate to an extreme to make their point.



MN Tigerstripes said:


> Some horses do NEED shoes. Period. Some horses don't need shoes. Period.


Exactly!!!!!!!!!!


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

I prefer to have mine barefoot but if they need shoes, so be it.

There are 9 horses where I board, the same farrier takes care of all of them and they run from barefoot, to barefoot with boots for riding, to front shoes only, to fully shod. Our farrier knows each one and takes care of them according to their individual needs.

My Morgan is currently barefoot but the farrier is coming out shortly to discuss why his back feet keep cracking/chipping. It's not a huge concern right now but I want to get a handle on it before it becomes one. My trainer thinks that more frequent trimming may help (4wks instead of 6) so I'd like to get his input on that and try that before shoes as he's a kicker and is about to be introduced to a new set of turnout buddies and I'd rather he was introduced while still barefoot.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Choooo Chhooo chuga chuga!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Some horses do NEED shoes. Period. Some horses don't need shoes. Period.


This. Can I get a hallelujah and an amen? 

The reason you don't see feral horses with debilitating hoof issues is because they don't_ live_ long enough. They become food for wolves or pumas. It's called, 'Mother Nature's a *****'. 

It always amuses me when someone throws the, 'but feral horses don't have feet problems!' line out there when trying to suck another convert into the Barefoot Uber Alles cult. _Sure_ they do, they just die really, really fast.


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

Aidan 8 yo TB. Front shoes, trimmed and re-set every 6 weeks. He recently fractured his coffin bone, x-rays showed us a congenital defect in the coffin bone leaving him with a void in the bone. Upon the recommendation of my vet, 2 more vets and the three of them consulting with my farrier we agree that keeping front shoes on him is in his best interest. He was sound 3 days after the accident and hasn't taken a lame step since  Still in recovery, no hoof sups. Soft white feet that crack constantly, I rasp chips.

Sonata 2 yo QH/Appi. Medium/hard black feet except for 1 white foot with black stripe in back. No supplements, she has awesome feet  Trimmed/reshaped every 6 weeks.

Both on 24/7 turnout in sand/dirt paddocks. I use a weekly disinfectant, when it's wet they get thrush bad. Hoof oil during dry weather


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Some horses do NEED shoes. Period. Some horses don't need shoes. Period.





Speed Racer said:


> This. Can I get a hallelujah and an amen?
> 
> The reason you don't see feral horses with debilitating hoof issues is because they don't_ live_ long enough. They become food for wolves or pumas. It's called, 'Mother Nature's a *****'.
> 
> It always amuses me when someone throws the, 'but feral horses don't have feet problems!' line out there when trying to suck another convert into the Barefoot Uber Alles cult. _Sure_ they do, they just die really, really fast.


Hallelujah and Amen!! Preach it sisters!!

Another reason why not a lot of mustangs are seen with crappy hooves is because they haven't had the feet bred out from underneath them like our home kept horses have. Just look at some of the horses being bred out there these days. TBs with paper thin hoof walls and soles. QHs with size 000 feet and 1300 pounds of muscle. 'Stangs have been running barefoot over tough *** country for generations, it is ridiculous to compare their feet to those of our domestic horses. Not only is their entire environment different, but their genetics are _very_ different as well.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Not to mention, as a *wild* animal of any kind, if you show so much as a limp, you are dinner. 

Froggy is currently barefoot and has been for some time. He has very good little feet for a TB but still gets sore on stones. So I am considering either boots or shoes, either will work.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

All aboard!!!!!!!!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)




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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

:rofl:

Can I have another Mojito? This day is taking forever!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I have my -GASP!- farrier coming tonight, and horror of HORRORS, JJ's getting _new front shoes!!!!!_ :shock: :shock: :shock:

The other two are just getting trimmed, but I'll have to let my farrier know that he's not really _qualified_ to trim, since he's not a Barefoot Uber Alles Nazi. :wink:


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

SR, I have told my farrier that many times. We have a good laugh about how not qualified he is on a pretty regular basis. 

All that time taking courses and studying under a pro, and taking continuing education stuff and testing and such means nothing, obviously.

Lets also ignore the fact that he has my old man's feet in better condition than they ever were before he started working on them. We have him comfortable barefoot behind (which he never had been before) and his front feet actually have hoof wall now. But heck, he is obviously not qualified.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*I have so much fun here*

You guys crack me up. I read up on the hoopla about natural barefoot trimming, and what I came away with was they trim the hoof higher in the middle than the front and back. Why? I haven't a clue, but it's obviously a miracle cure for navicular and if I remember right, bad teeth  I've been so lucky with Sienna, she's this itty bitty Morab (we measured her 3 times and found out she's actually 15.1 but she sure looks smaller) and I'm a, well there's just no other way to put it, quite overweight woman. I constantly asked the BO, am I too big for her, is it too much weight with the saddle and on and on, and the BO/trainer would always say, 'ask me again if you ever make her break a sweat.' And she has these like flying saucer feet  'bout the biggest thing on her. She's always been barefoot since I've had her and I usually only have to get a trim every 12 weeks. Occasionally she'll get a small chip in a hoof and I just file it off. I've had her on every kind of terrain and she's yet to make her first limp. Now we had a hard winter this year and she slipped sometimes going to the barn because she had big snowballs inside her foot. She has 3 black feet and one white one, and I know people think black is better, but her white one doesn't limp or get trimmed more often :wink: If I ever thought she needed them, she'd have them in a heartbeat, but she's just an easy keeper, stays roly poly on hay, dapples beautifully on her healthy coat in the summer, and she just gets free choice mineral salt. No grain, no supplements, no coddling for anything except she has high withers so I make sure the saddle doesn't rub. She's the closest thing to a HEALTHY 'stang I've seen.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

angelsgrace said:


> Take off the track TB's for example because they are shod for racing alot have trouble being barefoot simply because thats what they are used to.


_Did you ever consider that they are shod so that the surface they are working over doesn't wear down their hooves too fast? Not because the horse needs them, but to protect the hooves. Different concept, hmm?_


_We happily leave shoes off anything that does not need them, but as soon as our horses go into more serious work, the shoes are slapped on. It helps save their precious toes from being torn apart by stone dust. _

_Heck, I dont even remember any of our broodmares (or any of my riding horses for that matter) being seen by a farrier because they wore their own hooves down in a grass pasture. Sure, sometimes they were a bit long, but nothing extreme._

_The exception to the pasture horses was a stud that we had. He ended up with a stone chip in his ankle, leaving it softball sized. He wouldn't put full weight on it all the time, so it wouldn't wear down as fast as his other three. He got the one hoof trimmed every so often, so that it wouldn't cause him damage._


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> You guys crack me up. I read up on the hoopla about natural barefoot trimming, and what I came away with was they trim the hoof higher in the middle than the front and back. Why? I haven't a clue, but it's obviously a miracle cure for navicular and if I remember right, bad teeth  I've been so lucky with Sienna, she's this itty bitty Morab (we measured her 3 times and found out she's actually 15.1 but she sure looks smaller) and I'm a, well there's just no other way to put it, quite overweight woman. I constantly asked the BO, am I too big for her, is it too much weight with the saddle and on and on, and the BO/trainer would always say, 'ask me again if you ever make her break a sweat.' And she has these like flying saucer feet  'bout the biggest thing on her. She's always been barefoot since I've had her and I usually only have to get a trim every 12 weeks. Occasionally she'll get a small chip in a hoof and I just file it off. I've had her on every kind of terrain and she's yet to make her first limp. Now we had a hard winter this year and she slipped sometimes going to the barn because she had big snowballs inside her foot. She has 3 black feet and one white one, and I know people think black is better, but her white one doesn't limp or get trimmed more often :wink: If I ever thought she needed them, she'd have them in a heartbeat, but she's just an easy keeper, stays roly poly on hay, dapples beautifully on her healthy coat in the summer, and she just gets free choice mineral salt. No grain, no supplements, no coddling for anything except she has high withers so I make sure the saddle doesn't rub. She's the closest thing to a HEALTHY 'stang I've seen.



I used to ride a little Morgan mare at my old barn and she had the best feet. We trucked up and down mountains over boulders and she didn't even flinch.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

They really do seem to be hearty horses. At least the ones I've known (I live in VT and we're partial to them  I'm sure if they were over bred for some certain aspect they wouldn't do so well, but the thing about them is they're so versatile there's nothing to over breed on them. No Arab dished faces, or TBs long legs, etc. They can and will do anything with relish they're trained for. And with the cross breeding I think it's making them even better, like with Sienna. Because recently seems like they've tried to breed the pure breds taller. Figure was just a little guy and he was bred to just about every american horse breed cross country. From the draft to the AQH, he was there improving the breed. I wouldn't trade Sienna for the world.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

*Sigh* And again, everyone jumps on the 'ridicule the barefoot advocate' train - yep, Hunter, you're right - it has arrived. 


Originally Posted by MN Tigerstripes:
Some horses do NEED shoes. Period. Some horses don't need shoes. Period.

See, that sounds just as absolute to me. Said horse who needs shoes, always? To me, no. Depends entirely on environment, use and management. Same goes the other way. 

If I had a horse, who due to my management and intended use needed shoes, then I would use shoes. Since I choose to manage in a way that works well with barefoot, and my intended use doesn't require shoes (studs, slider plates) I choose to stay barefoot as I do feel it is the better option. If that makes me a 'cult member' then ^so be it. I'm happy in myself that I am doing my best for my horses health, as everyone should be, no matter what path they take. I don't feel the need to ridicule anyone for their choices, even if I consider them wrong, or blinded. I would rather try and help/educate than ridicule, personally. 

On to my horses:

Wildey, 15yo Arab gelding. Owned him for ten years. Shod his fronts when I first got him as I rode a LOT and someone told me I had to shoe because his feet would wear too fast. Educated myself a bit, pulled the shoes, and he has Bern barefoot for at least 8years now. He had a lot of work, including riding on roads, chasing cattle in rocky paddocks... He has never had a bruise or abcess, in fact has never been lame. 

Latte, 5th Arab mare. Rock hard feet, bare, handles anything. 

Lucy, 4yo ASH mare. Came to me a month ago with one front shoe, and very long/chipped/neglected feet with a lot of separation. Pulled the one shoe, and over a week slowly trimmed her feet back to a good length, and a week later did a proper trim. She was sore on one hind due to separation, then got an abcess due to separation on the other hind. Once that burst she was sound, and I've been riding her the last two and a bit weeks with no issues. She actually will have very good feet once the separation grows out, and even now isn't ouchy on gravel. 

All horses are on 24/7 turnout in big paddocks all together with two others. Free choice salt/minerals. Only fed when in hard work and on a grain free diet. 

I maintenance trim myself, every two weeks or ^so, and get our trimmer out every 8-10 weeks to do a more aggressive trim and make sure I'm on track. Last time he said we shouldn't need to re-book as I should be doing it myself by now, lol, but I like having him check them over.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

I don’t think that anyone is helped by approaching an issue with either a black-and-white, or an eye-rolling attitude.

It’s funny how certain issues surrounding horses cause such reactions in people (natural horsemanship, barefoot vs. shod, etc.). We get all up-in-arms and defensive and critical or derisive. None of it helps us interact with people, and none of it helps our horses. Can we agree on that much?

There are some extremely talented farriers, and extremely talented barefoot hoofcare practitioners. Likewise there are some rather bad folks from both groups out there butchering horse hooves. The issue should never be “my barefoot trimmer is better than your farrier” but rather educating ourselves to recognize GOOD workmanship.

Also, I firmly believe that we shouldn’t be focused on statements that generalize either barefoot OR shoeing. Obviously, not every single horse is going to be able to stand up to the stresses of extreme competition with no protection. But many ARE capable when given the chance. There is a woman in Ontario who is racing Quarter Horses barefoot, and winning those races. There are people in the highest levels of dressage competing barefoot and noticing improvements. Nearly every discipline now has a handful of people who are demonstrating the potential that our horses have to be in a more healthy, natural state even in extreme sport! 



smrobs said:


> Another reason why not a lot of mustangs are seen with crappy hooves is because they haven't had the feet bred out from underneath them like our home kept horses have. Just look at some of the horses being bred out there these days. TBs with paper thin hoof walls and soles. QHs with size 000 feet and 1300 pounds of muscle. 'Stangs have been running barefoot over tough *** country for generations, it is ridiculous to compare their feet to those of our domestic horses. Not only is their entire environment different, but their genetics are _very_ different as well.


 While it’s true that our domestic horses have some natural tendencies towards problems (ie, small QH feet and flat TB feet), Mustangs that are domesticated are subject to the same environmentally-caused hoof maladies. Mustangs can get contracted heels, thrush, navicular, and laminitis if their environment allows (poor shoeing, poor horse husbandry, bad feeding).

It’s pretty easy to counter the “barefoot hoopla” with a VERY generalized statement of “Some horses need shoes. Some don’t.” Some horses need protection, and it is up to the owner to decide whether that protection is hoof boots, metal shoes, glue on shoes, plastic shoes, etc. 

It bugs me when people make decisions out of ignorance, by following “tradition” or without being well-informed...on either the shoeing side or the barefoot side of the argument. “My horse should be barefoot so I will let him suffer through rehab with no protection, and I will trot him down the gravel road and let him gimp along because it's natural.” OR, “My horse is tender, so he must have metal shoes nailed to his feet, because he NEEDS them.”

Based on decades of research by many veterinarians and horse professionals I think it would be safe to say that barefoot is an ideal healthy state for the horse, and that metal horse shoes have been proven to cause long-term damage to hooves over time.

</novel> :wink:


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## angelsgrace (Apr 30, 2009)

DutchFeather said:


> Well I'm probably going to start some sort of debate with my reply, but oh well. My horses are barefoot, and by that I mean I have a Natural Hoofcare Practitioner (NHP) come and trim their hooves every 6-8 weeks. I do not use a farrier because if you ask them to leave your horse barefoot, you are going to get a pasture trim. A pasture trim, while the horse may not be wearing shoes, is not a true barefoot trim. With the NHP, my horses are trimmed to imitate a wild mustangs hooves. They are hard and strong with no cracks, flares or lameness. Mustangs wear their hooves down on varying terrain and never have the lameness issues that are recurring with our domestic horses. You don't see navicular, ringbone, club foot, flares, cracks etc., with a wild horses' hoof. With NHP you get the same thing. No horse actually needs to have shoes, traditional farriers just ruin horses feet by thinning the hoof wall, reducing hoof/leg circulation, and taking away full flex and function of every part of the hoof. Bella, my 14 year old QH mare was VERY lame on front with swelling and pain in her knees, while she had shoes and was trimmed by a farrier. After the few trims by an NHP, her swelling and pain was gone and she was no longer lame. I'm a firm believer in REAL barefoot trimming by a certified and educated NHP. Some people are no-believers and insist that their horse needs shoes, I know better now that I've actually tried it and had it work for me and my horses.


Couldn't agreed more, i say farrier but he does both NHP and shoeing but he tells people his opinion and most of his clients have barefoot horses.
And i'm glad you wrote this half the time i'm too scared to write my real opinion cause when write it people take the offensive and it starts a conflict.


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## angelsgrace (Apr 30, 2009)

Magaidh said:


> I don’t think that anyone is helped by approaching an issue with either a black-and-white, or an eye-rolling attitude.
> 
> It’s funny how certain issues surrounding horses cause such reactions in people (natural horsemanship, barefoot vs. shod, etc.). We get all up-in-arms and defensive and critical or derisive. None of it helps us interact with people, and none of it helps our horses. Can we agree on that much?
> 
> ...


Thank you that really opened my eyes great post really interesting and i have found that to be true. i hope my posts have not been taken the wrong way.............
But this post is very close to my opinion.


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## angelsgrace (Apr 30, 2009)

VelvetsAB said:


> _Did you ever consider that they are shod so that the surface they are working over doesn't wear down their hooves too fast? Not because the horse needs them, but to protect the hooves. Different concept, hmm?_
> 
> 
> _We happily leave shoes off anything that does not need them, but as soon as our horses go into more serious work, the shoes are slapped on. It helps save their precious toes from being torn apart by stone dust. _
> ...


I ride Crystal on terrain that does wear them down and I asked about 5 people with more experience than me A farrier, vet, barefoot trimmer, and some people that have been working with horses for many many years and who i respect their opinion quite a bit.
And they all said in slighty different words that her feet were getting stronger and more sound because of it, her feet barely need trimming just fileing get ride of any tiny flares or chips, She went from a horse that i thought would need shoeing if i worked her more to a horse on hard work on sorts of terrain including gravel and stone dust and some time the road though i do avoid it for her joints sake, her hooves barely chip now and have improved so much.
But do remember i'm talking about my experience not yours and i have nothing against what you do with your horses this thread is about shareing your opinion not judging other people about their opinion.
By the way i know race horses that race without shoes and they have have better feet in the long run as i said it my opinion not a judgement of other people.
Excuse any gramma i'm dyslectic


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Well I must say with this thread and another similar one I have been following it has really made me think. Last month I put front shoes on Hunter because he was having such a hard time on the gravel and rocks. He actually got a stone bruise on his back unshod foot 3 weeks ago and rehurt it last weekend. BUT as I had only intended to leave the shoes on for a short time I will leave them on for now and try and see how he does over the next summer. He is not even 4 yet (we think as he was a rescue he may be younger) and from reading these forums I should have waited before shoeing. NOW having said that I have total trust in my farrier as she corrected Hunters twisted front legs which were caused by poor trimming before I got him and she spent a long time in school (I can't remember exactly what she took after farrier but it was an intense course on remdial care etc. She is also my trainer and I wouldn't be where I am right now with Hunter without her. ANYWHOO I have absorbed everyones opinions on here and am researching myself and will try and do what is best for my horse as that is what it is all about.


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## CecilliaB (Jan 21, 2010)

If nothing else comes from these debates/discussions, I think it's fantastic that it peeks peoples interest enough to EDUCATE themselves and make educated decisions in either direction


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## angelsgrace (Apr 30, 2009)

Cecillia I agreed 
Hunter65 I'm glad ur doing your own research and that this has helped you think about your decisions but it sounds like you've done an amazing job with hunter i know it not easy looking after rescue horse having two myself goodluck


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I think the statement "some horses need shoes and some don't" is entirely valid. Yes it comes off as absolute but it allows for variation based on the actual horse. Which is the most important part of the equation.

I have never had a shod horse. Ever. Most of my family hasn't had a shod horse either. The only horses who get shoes are those who are incapable of handling any sort of work without it. 

I live in South Central MN. The ground is soft here. There are no rocky areas, unless you put a ton of rock in your pasture. You put a herd of wild horses out here and their hooves will look completely different than that of a horse in MT. They will more than likely be tender if you run them over a rocky field. 

As I've mentioned before. My horses live out 24/7. Minimal to no grain, beyond the hoof supplement Soda gets to *hopefully* help with his hoof tenderness. As I've said before he is maintained in a barefoot trim by myself w/ the advice and guidance of a certified barefoot trimmer. He is still ouchy on gravel. So what am I to do? Continue to work through it? I've owned him for 4 years coming Sept. He's been sore on gravel the entire time. My options are boots or shoes to make my horse comfortable and to keep us both safe. If the boots work, great. If not, he will get shoes on his front hooves. 

Now people who are "barefoot or die" mentality.. Please tell me what exactly I should do to fix this problem. Just to make it more fun, he has odd shaped hooves and tiny ones for his size. 

Maybe I did come off a little strong in my initial post, but frankly I'm really tired of the "all horses" mentality when it comes to hoof care. Our horses are not wild horses. Even the ones that are kept out 24/7 on a forage only diet don't come close to replicating the environment that a wild horse lives in. Quite frankly if you put my darling out there he'd probably be dead and he's not the only one.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

The (mostly) selective breeding that has created today's horses negates the "wild horses..." argument in my mind.

As does the fact that wild horses are not paddocked in small areas. I don't care how big your pasture is, it is not as big as the area that most wild horses inhabit.

Wild horses are not ridden. Whether it be once a month or 6 days a week, being ridden will have an effect on whether or not a horse is comfortable barefoot. 

Of the 7 horses we have, I can tell you right now that not one of them would survive the "wild horse" life. 

I just don't see the point in the "but wild horses..." argument. My horses are not wild. Neither are yours. The similarities between my horses and wild horses pretty much end with being the same species. 

Having said all that.

Like I said we have 7 horses all on a 6 week schedule. 2 are retired, they get to hang around the paddock and eat and boss the others around. They are barefoot. 1 is a Shetland who has feet as tough as nails. He is barefoot. 3 are currently not in work. They are barefoot at the moment, but their needs will be reassessed when they come in to work.

Which leaves Rex. He is currently barefoot although I think he may be getting shod in front again very soon. He does not handle barefoot well. The difference in him when we shoe his fronts is huge.


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## angelsgrace (Apr 30, 2009)

I have a mare that is well was wild she was taken of the mountains when she was about 4 along with her foal and her feet are very tough but she still get issues with her feet like all horses she just has less


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## lovesmyhawse (Mar 18, 2011)

I hate shoes. I ride on many different types of terrain. Never had a barefoot horse go lame. However, I have had horses go lame from hurting themselves by pulling shoes in muddy pastures. 
I believe that hoof care is extremely important. I trim hooves at least once every 4 weeks and I condition hooves at least twice a week.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

You will find most barefoot advocates think boots are fantastic. Not many (educated) people think horses should never have anything on their feet. 

I have a set of boots, easyboot gloves, for both wildey and latte. I bought them for the times I float to other areas for trail rides on super rocky ground they aren't conditioned to. They would probably be ok, but I would rather use the boots and have no problems than not have them and maybe have sore ponies!

One big factor of barefoot is that if you want them to ride on it, they need to live on it. It is always going to be hard to get rock crunching hooves when a horse lives in mud. In those situations most horses will absolutely need protection - most barefoot advocates just feel that boots are a healthier option for the feet. Removeable, no peripheral loading, soft shock absorbing surface, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

My cousin was trying to pick out Kodi's hooves and was confused because she couldn't "get all the dirst out", so I took a look and informed her that all the dirt was out, she was now trying to pick her actual hoof lol. Kodi has AWESOME feet and I'll never put shoes on her because she has such good feet. Bella is now sound barefoot and Sam is only 9 months old, so he gets trims, and I won't put shoes on him either. My family owns Belgians and uses them for logging in the woods, plowing fields and haying and even hayrides, and they're all barefoot. 

If you look up the blog called "the jumping percheron" you'll see a girl who is using her percheron mare competively in cross country and dressage and she's running her mare barefoot.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, I never said that farriers didn't know what they were doing, I said that they do pasture trims, not barefoot trims. And that's true. I do put boots on Bella when we are trail riding if I know it's going to be a long ride, just because we cross roads, rivers, gravel, grass, woods, pretty much everything. Sam will be harder to find boots for because he is a Belgian and when he's full grown, normal horse boots won't fit. At 9 months old, he barely fits in Bella's boots haha...

I don't argue on the internet. I state my opinion, and then I'm done with it. I like having pleasant discussions, especially when it comes to horses because they are something I ENJOY. I am up for a good debate, but when I see people getting nasty, or start to ridicule, then I take myself out of the discussion. 

It's a beautiful day here, which is amazing, since it's either been raining or snowing since October, so I'm going to go out and enjoy some time with my ponies  Time to ground drive Tickle Pony! (We call Kodi, Tickle Pony, because the day I got her, the man who use to own her decided to beat her with a stick to get her on the trailer, chipping her tooth out of her mouth, cutting her up, and freaking her out more. It took us 3 hours after that to calm her down and get her to load by tickling the back of each leg, to get her to step up one at a time because at that point, pressure and release or anything else wasn't working. So she was dubbed Tickle Pony) :lol:

Have a great day everyone!


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*I think I used the term “barefoot hoopla”*

And I was talking about the 'natural' way to supposedly trim a hoof. My farrier went to Cornell yet we have a woman in the area who is a self-taught Natural Horse Trimming person. And I'm afraid i made my statements based on knowing her personally, not on the research.
Sienna is, as I said barefoot, has been since I've owned her and never been lame in any foot. I haven't a clue if that would work for every horse. she has these wide, strong Morgan feet that I'm just lucky have always been healthy, along with her overall health. I don't believe in absolutes either and wouldn't try to speak for what other owners choose to do. 
The health of the horse is the important thing, not which side is right or wrong.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Have a good ride Dutch!

I've seen some really awful work on both sides of the spectrum. The farrier that trims "TWHs" was probably the worst. I came home from college wondering why my poor horse's hooves looked like cows. Ick. That really helped the tripping problem my old mare had. :roll: I convinced my parents to find a new farrier after that...

I've seen really nice shoe jobs, terrible damage to hooves done by boots, badly shod horses, really nice barefoot trims. Barefoot is easier IMO and generally more than sufficient for most horses. Unfortunately we don't really breed horses for healthy hooves/legs so there are going to be horses that don't work barefoot. 

WS, the Easy Boot Gloves are the ones I'm looking into for the summer. I've heard fantastic things about them, hopefully they will fit his hooves!


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

morabhobbyhorse said:


> The health of the horse is the important thing, not which side is right or wrong.


Exactly! The welfare of our horses should always come first, and that involves making informed decisions, not allowing ourselves to be led blindly by another person's opinion (either a vet, a farrier, or a person on the internet). Remember that professionals are capable of making mistakes too and it never hurts to try to understand the things we choose to do with our horses: ie, what will these eggbar shoes do to assist my horse? or, If my horse's foot looks like this what does it mean for it's function? The more you know, the more you can ask questions and continue to learn.

Here's an article for anybody interested. It looks at a few of the health benefits of keeping horses barefoot, by veterinarian Dr. Robert Bowker. He is a professor at the College of Veterinary Medicine at Michigan State University.

The article is located at The Horse dot com, which requires readers to sign up to their website to read (it's free). If you don't want to do that I can probably paste the article here, but it's quite long. If you do sign up it's an amazing resource for good horse health articles!

The Horse | Barefoot Benefits


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## jyuukai (Apr 19, 2011)

Ack! Sorry all! Yes, the AMHR bans the use of shoes in miniatures on the showgrounds, and I believe the AMHA does as well. No shoes for the minis


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## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Barefoot and shod folks need to stop crucifying each other and drop the attitudes. Both sides are valid and there is some truly ignorant propaganda being spewed from both sides as "proof" there are benefits to both sides and it is a fact that bare is better if it is workable. Sometimes you have to have hoof protection. Shoes are a valid form. I personally prefer the non metal shoes that are coming out now over the shock transmitting metal but hey, make your own choices right?

We all want healthy, sound feet...period. You can get there either way. Educate yourself and always look ahead. Don't do something because its the way its always been done or its the new hip thing. 

As a horse owner, it is YOUR responsibility to make sure the person you hire to do your horses feet is really doing a good job. Blind trust is just that, blind.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I had thought about boots for my guys that I use in the summer, but then I considered what I do and how I would manage the boots. During 1 drive, we move from rocky roads to grassy pastures to fields with big rocks and down across creeks and bogs. With the wild cattle we get, the entire drive is usually at a long trot or a lope and there just isn't time to stop to take off/put on boots at any point. I don't think the cattle would be very accommodating if I were to holler out to them "Hey, I know you are currently crashing the fence and beginning your stampede down the rocky road, but can you hold on just a minute while I put my horse's boots on?" :lol:. I would also be very concerned about just leaving them on the entire time for fear that one of them would get yanked off in a bog or a creek or a deadfall, less from the worry about the horse ending up unprotected than I would be about the cost to replace it.

On the other hand, even during typical rides through cattle during the summer can quickly turn from a leisurely ride through the grass to get a count into a flat out foot chase down a rocky road. It is a pretty common thing for the cattle we get to freak out at the sight of a horse and crash the fence to get away. Then, the only chance to get them back is to chase them down, rope them, and get them drug into the trailer.

That is why, for me, shoes are an absolute necessity on my summer working horses.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Trinity3205 said:


> Barefoot and shod folks need to stop crucifying each other and drop the attitudes.


I think you are missing a point.
There is no one here who insists on shoes. At least not that I have read. I believe everyone here agrees that barefoot is an AOK way to be and any horse that can be barefoot and do their job should be barefoot.

The difference comes in when some people insist that ALL horses should be barefoot. 

No one is screaming shoes are a must. Many people are screaming barefoot is a must.



Trinity3205 said:


> As a horse owner, it is YOUR responsibility to make sure the person you hire to do your horses feet is really doing a good job. Blind trust is just that, blind.


This I totally agree with.


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> No one is screaming shoes are a must. Many people are screaming barefoot is a must.


Almost everyone has made the statement that shoes are sometimes necessary, without addressing the damage that shoes can do to a horse's hoof over time. PROTECTION of the hoof is sometimes necesssary. As long as horse owners understand the damaging effects of metal shoes and are willing to accept them, then they have made an informed decision.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Damage has not been proven. Feel free to believe it.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

I thought we settled this? LOL. It's whatever is best for the horse. Our purebreds over decades don't always have Mustang feet. And someone made a valid point that a mustang with bad feet soon becomes food so they are weeded out. My horse is barefoot, has flying saucer feet of a Morgan, and hasn't needed shoes YET. If she did I wouldn't hesitate to have her shod for heavens sake. Where is all this damage in horses living to be over 30 that have been shod all their lives. Excuse me for repeating myself but it's about the health of the horse, not our opinions.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

HowClever said:


> The (mostly) selective breeding that has created today's horses negates the "wild horses..." argument in my mind.
> 
> As does the fact that wild horses are not paddocked in small areas. I don't care how big your pasture is, it is not as big as the area that most wild horses inhabit.
> 
> ...


Totally agree & this quote earlier [You don't see navicular, ringbone, club foot, flares, cracks etc., with a wild horses' hoof] is also true but a few things were left out. Age related problems seldom have the opportunity to pop up in wild horses.Genetic defects like club feet will breed themselves out as a wild horse born with problems will probably not live to breed.

Domestic horses are the result of man's whims so we therefore must take responsibilty for their needs, be it barefoot or shod,we must do what is in the best interest of each individual horse.


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## paint gurl 23 (Jan 26, 2009)

Barefoot and always will be barefoot. For the OP and anyone interested in some good barefoot reading, click the link below. Opens your eyes to a whole new look at your horse and hooves.

What is Barefoot and Natural?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

So paint gurl are you saying that if you had a horse that required shoes in order to help with lameness or some other issues you wouldn't do so for your horse? You would cause them to suffer in order to keep them barefoot?


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> So paint gurl are you saying that if you had a horse that required shoes in order to help with lameness or some other issues you wouldn't do so for your horse? You would cause them to suffer in order to keep them barefoot?


Again. It's your opinion that a horse would need shoes to be sound. If you were educated about barefoot trimming, you'd know that most of us have boots that we put on if the horse needs them. There's no need for shoes with proper hoofcare if someone has their horses barefoot. If you have your horses with shoes, thats fine and dandy and your choice and it works for horses. But for people who have their horses barefoot, they take proper care of their horses, addressing issues, and trimming the hooves as necessary to prevent lameness. There is nothing that can happen to a horse to MAKE them need shoes once they are being successfully trimmed barefoot; these lameness issues can be corrected through proper hoofcare and trimming as well, not just by shoes. Again, it's whatever you think is right. So don't try to make someone feel guilty for doing what is right for their horse. Get more educated about barefoot trimming instead. With that being said, I'm not attacking your intelligence or opinion, just saying that someone's beliefs and ways of doing things are just that, theirs. Not yours.


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

It crashed again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Stupid train can't stay on the tracks! Who the hell ate all the popcorn?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

Anvil said:


> It crashed again.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Nothing "crashed". People should be able to give their opinion without being percieved as being on a band wagon or train. 

I actually revisted this to revise my latest post. I should have worded it differently.

Just as a farrier is trained and educated on how to correct problems with shoeing, a barefoot trimmer has the same training, without using shoes. People who chose to have shoes on their horses should have a knowledgable farrier who can correct lameness problems. Just as a person who choses to have their horses barefoot should chose a knowledgeable Natural Hoofcare Practitioner. A person who has their horses shod, believes it's best and it works for them. A person who has their horses barefoot believes its best and it works for them. Don't think that just because a person has their horses barefoot, that it means they don't care if their horse goes lame.

My horses are barefoot. If they go lame or become unsound, I'm not going to assume they need shoes. My NHP can and has corrected lameness/soundness issues and restored my horses to full health. Just as a person who uses a farrier should be able to trust the same from their farrier.

It's not about being on a side. If someone has a belief, they should be able to have that belief and technique respected without being accused of being on a train and crashing it. Don't be ridiculous and don't try to cause problems. This was a nice discussion with everyone and it should remain that way.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Sorry not just my opinion. There _are _times when shoes can needed regardless of how well taken care of in the "barefoot" style a horse is or isn't.

If you can see that nor admit that, then you need to do some serious research into this. 

Barefoot, boots, and even shoes... Not one of them is right for every single horse out there. Trying to say that one of them is is absolutely positively asinine no matter which way you spin it.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

All the farriers I know can & do have many barefoot horses & can solve many problems with proper trimming. No special label needed, they just do what is best for the horse.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Nobody is on the band wagon or the train. Some threads are born to be a wreck. Reason being... everyone has their own opinions. Someone thinks their way is right and that's where the train comes in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

Holy Trapezoid Triangle!!!  :shock:  I never realized there was such controversy of advocates on the issue of shod or barefoot!! It took this old timer a bit to understand the "train aka bandwagon" theory of one versus the other. 

My horses have always been shod, because my riding time has been done on rocky country back roads or rough wildnerss trails. Plus,on the many Benefit Blazed Trail Rides I've participated in required horses to be shod. I did have one farrier I fired, because he was putting keg shoes on my horses feet fitting the shoe to her hoof instead of doing corrective shoeing to help open up her heels. She did come up with contracted heels thanks to that shoer. I got her another farrier who opened up her heels.


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## morabhobbyhorse (Apr 17, 2011)

*This is not a train wreck.*

OK, it's time to unsubscribe (soon I'll have NO threads I'm going to, LOL) I have read this from the beginning and it's not a train, it's a Ferris Wheel, going in the same circles. I believe we all care about our horses and try to do the right thing for them, and I don't care what you believe,:lol:


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Sorry not just my opinion. There _are _times when shoes can needed regardless of how well taken care of in the "barefoot" style a horse is or isn't.
> 
> If you can see that nor admit that, then you need to do some serious research into this.
> 
> Barefoot, boots, and even shoes... Not one of them is right for every single horse out there. Trying to say that one of them is is absolutely positively asinine no matter which way you spin it.


Give me an example when a horse will NEED shoes if they are properly taken care of barefoot and have been for quite some time?

Also, I didn't say it was my way or the high way. I said I use a reputable and knowledgable NHP and have never had shoes put on my horses because of lameness because my NHP can and has corrected the problem with trimming, not shoes. Don't be so biased and one sided. I also said that if a person uses a farrier and has shoes on their horses, then their farrier is more than likely knowledgable and able to handle the ame situations. 

YOU are the one trying to create a bandwagon/train by being one sided on the issue. "A horse is lame barefoot so it needs shoes." No, the horse has an issue that a hoofcare professional needs to address, whether it be a farrier in your case or an NHP in my case.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

Gonna have to let my farrier know that despite my horses' feet looking better than I have ever seen them, he isn't qualified to trim them while they are barefoot.

I'm sorry, but I believe that a good trim is a good trim. I don't care if it's Mister Big Name Barefoot Practitioner, master farrier, or farmer Joe down the road. If they trim feet well, they trim feet well. 

All good farriers can adapt the way they trim to suit the individual needs of the horse's foot. I have seen feet trimmed by a bad barefoot trimmer, I have seen feet trimmed by a bad farrier. 

Funnily enough, all the decent "barefoot" trimming I have seen, looks no different than the good farrier work I have seen.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

HowClever said:


> all the decent "barefoot" trimming I have seen, looks no different than the good farrier work I have seen.


You hit the nail on the head!


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Sorry not just my opinion. There _are _times when shoes can needed regardless of how well taken care of in the "barefoot" style a horse is or isn't.
> 
> If you can see that nor admit that, then you need to do some serious research into this.
> 
> Barefoot, boots, and even shoes... Not one of them is right for every single horse out there. Trying to say that one of them is is absolutely positively asinine no matter which way you spin it.


In my opinion, people are much too quick to slap shoes on a horse's feet to correct problems that can be worked through with proper trimming. Laminitis, navicular or chronic heel pain, flat feet, thin soles, imbalance, poor horn quality, clubbed feet, white line disease, abscesses, poor frog quality, tenderness on hard surfaces, contracted heels...the list goes on. All of these conditions can and have been corrected with proper barefoot trimming, and lifestyle changes. Many of these are exacerbated by shoes, even though a horse may appear "sound."

The ONLY instance I can think of where a shoe could be absolutely necessary could be in the treatment of a broken coffin bone. But even then, I am not knowledgeable enough on the physiological effects of a broken coffin bone on the functions of the hoof and how a metal shoe would either benefit or further damage the horse's foot.

A few issues that most veterinarians and well-trained farriers will ADMIT that shoes can cause:
- contracted heels
- poor frog quality
- leg issues from diminished hoof shock absorption on harder surfaces
- leg issues from too much traction (for example, with studded shoes)
- decrease in hoof horn quality over time
- potential injury from use on varying surfaces
- potential injury from use of toe clips

Despite someone saying that there is no evidence of damage to hooves from shoes, there is MUCH research going on that is showing how the metal shoe adversely affects the living structures of the hoof.


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

HowClever said:


> Gonna have to let my farrier know that despite my horses' feet looking better than I have ever seen them, he isn't qualified to trim them while they are barefoot.


 
Nobody said your farrier wasn't qualified, so I guess I'm confused as to where you got that from? In my posts I said I use a qualified NHP and people who use shoes use a qualified farrier.


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## paint gurl 23 (Jan 26, 2009)

Thanks Dutchfeather. Also heres a book for anyone interested in learning about barefoot.

Now available for Pre-order


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

DutchFeather said:


> I'm a firm believer in REAL barefoot trimming by a certified and educated NHP.


What makes your barefoot trimmer certified?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

DutchFeather said:


> Give me an example when a horse will NEED shoes if they are properly taken care of barefoot and have been for quite some time?
> .


 
Any time the wear on the hoof exceeds the growth the horse needs to be shod. I USE my horse hard in rough areas and they would not last two days unshod. I have pulled shoes off my horses after only six weeks that were worn to less than half of thier original thickness. Also there are people that choose to not spend the time adjusting thier horses diet to help them go barefoot.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> What makes your barefoot trimmer certified?


Usually a business card.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Usually a business card.


That was my thought too. I wanted to hear the justification from the people who insist they are the only way to go.

A weekend course and some videos and a business card seem to be the norm for most of them.


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Usually a business card.


I love it Kevin. Rofl
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

In regards to qualification - Here in Australia we have an Equine Podiotherapy Course trimmers can do to get some 'qualification'.



> Funnily enough, all the decent "barefoot" trimming I have seen, looks no different than the good farrier work I have seen.


I had my horse shod at one time. I also had all my horses trimmed barefoot by many of the best farriers in this area over the course of 7 or so years, who also trim the feet of many top performance riders. Nothing like the trims done now by myself and my trimmer. (As much as a hoof trim CAN vary - The hoof is still the same basic shape, so huge differences actually look minimal to look at). My horses were sound, but had issues with chipping quite often.


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> What makes your barefoot trimmer certified?


My NHP was certified by the Institute for the Study of Natural Horse Care Practices (ISNHCP). Formerly this certification was conducted by the "Association for the Advancement of Natural Horse Care Practices" (AANHCP). It's a 9-12 month course that requires hands on mentorship/apprenticeship as well as seminars and classroom work. Before she became an NHP, she had a degree in Equine Podiatry and was a farrier. I think she's more than qualified by both our standards, both as a Farrier and an NHP.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Yes yours is VERY qualified.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

wow I have read this whole thread and have many things to think about from both sides. I would like to see a qualified farrier AND a qualified barefoot trimmer come on here with their thoughts. My FARRIER does both and has many shod and unshod clients to her it is each individual horse. I do have to say that the barefoot enthusiasts are VERY defensive and you really needn't be as it IS just everyone's opinions. I need another mojito..... trots off to the bar


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I think you are missing a point.
> There is no one here who insists on shoes. At least not that I have read. I believe everyone here agrees that barefoot is an AOK way to be and any horse that can be barefoot and do their job should be barefoot.
> 
> The difference comes in when some people insist that ALL horses should be barefoot.
> ...



This. Seriously. :lol:

I swear horse people are some of the fastest to fly into "omg you don't do something my way you are evil and should never be allowed within 100 of a horse" mode ... as it turns out... so are people on the internet. Horse people + internet = scary and kind of funny.

If your horse is sound, happy, comfortable, enjoys their life and their job and receives humane and responsible care then power to you! 

I have one completely barefoot horse and one completely shod horse. I will not apologize for or back pedal in an attempt to justify either one and I would never in a million years try to preach to someone else about whether or not they chose to use shoes or not. 

A good shoeing is better than a bad barefoot trim and a good barefoot trim is better than a bad shoeing. Beyond that, get over yourselves.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

Deerly said:


> This. Seriously. :lol:
> 
> I swear horse people are some of the fastest to fly into "omg you don't do something my way you are evil and should never be allowed within 100 of a horse" mode ... as it turns out... so are people on the internet. Horse people + internet = scary and kind of funny.
> 
> ...



Well said!


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

Hunter65 said:


> wow I have read this whole thread and have many things to think about from both sides. I would like to see a qualified farrier AND a qualified barefoot trimmer come on here with their thoughts. My FARRIER does both and has many shod and unshod clients to her it is each individual horse. _I do have to say that the barefoot enthusiasts are VERY defensive and you really needn't be as it IS just everyone's opinions_. I need another mojito..... trots off to the bar


I wasn't defensive til someone said that if a horse goes lame then you should slap shoes on it to make it sound again... ? Just as a Farrier is trained to make corrections through trims and shoeing, an NHP is trained to do it through corrective trimming. If my NHP can correct and issue without slapping shoes on my horse, then I'm happy with that. If someone wants to put shoes on, feel free, who am I to stop you or tell you otherwise? I'd like people to be open to other ideas and methods, but, some people won't be and I understand that. It's completely understandable. I know I don't like it when someone tells me that I should do something one way, when the way I'm doing it works for me.


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## fuadteagan (Jun 10, 2010)

angelsgrace said:


> Hello,
> I'm currently doing some research on shoeing horses and Leaving them barefoot.
> And i would love to know what you do with all your horses and why for example I would like to know what sort of supplements you give them for their hooves any sort of hoof oil or soak you may use, Do you shoe them or leave them barefoot how often do you get their feet trimmed or shod, What sort of work they do, And there type of hoof I.E soft medium or hard colour of the hoof what sort of terrain do they live and exercise in. And why you shoe or leave them barefoot etc.
> I'll start,


Ok, well.
Secret is a 16 year old morgan x. She was (and still) used for a lesson horse. But, mostly I ride her and for the other lessons he calm, lazy personality makes it just like a beginner horse other than when shes with me. She'll be sweet as she can be with little kids and even kids older than me but nooo, I make her work so she won't canter on a circle correctly:lol: sorry got caught in the moment :wink:. Only one of our horses at the barn has shoes. He is a big saddlebred with huge,bad feet. Anywho, we don't put much hoof oil. I mean we sometimes put like some stuff to keep them from cracking *sometimes*. Our ring is a sand and our red pen is a pen. She lives in a big, square corral (pretty muddy at this time of year). Their isn't grass their. They get put in the grass fields in the summer, sometimes. She has no shoes and she has like medium-hard hooves that are black. I think we get hers trimmed like twice a year or less. Sometimes it falls on the next year. I think like every 7 months we have the farrier come out and do ALLLLLLLLLL the horses. We don't do much trail riding and I mean we do showing every month. I also jump tiny cross-rails with her. I am just learning to jump and have jumped like 18" but I have to practice before I get on a real jumping horse.


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## Hunter65 (Aug 19, 2009)

DutchFeather said:


> I wasn't defensive til someone said that if a horse goes lame then you should slap shoes on it to make it sound again... ? Just as a Farrier is trained to make corrections through trims and shoeing, an NHP is trained to do it through corrective trimming. If my NHP can correct and issue without slapping shoes on my horse, then I'm happy with that. If someone wants to put shoes on, feel free, who am I to stop you or tell you otherwise? I'd like people to be open to other ideas and methods, but, some people won't be and I understand that. It's completely understandable. I know I don't like it when someone tells me that I should do something one way, when the way I'm doing it works for me.



The thing is, no one was telling you to shoe your horse.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I didn't say slap shoes on if it was lame, i said if it required shoes to help with the lameness. Kind of reading comprehension fail. Kevin had a really good example. Boots are not the be all and end all of hoof protection. There are times that shoes are needed. Your comments that you would "never" use shoes shows that you really have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Magaidh said:


> A few issues that most veterinarians and well-trained farriers will ADMIT that shoes can cause:
> - contracted heels
> - poor frog quality
> - leg issues from diminished hoof shock absorption on harder surfaces
> ...


I beg to differ with your cause and affect logic and your usage of the word most.

I would guess that all (yes all) good veterinarians and farriers will tell you that shoes can cause those issues. They will also tell you that a bad barefoot trim can also cause those issues. Poorly done shoes are bad, just as bad as poorly done barefoot trim. 

I think what Deerly said covers it well.



Deerly said:


> A good shoeing is better than a bad barefoot trim and a good barefoot trim is better than a bad shoeing.





Hunter65 said:


> I would like to see a qualified farrier AND a qualified barefoot trimmer come on here with their thoughts.


Good luck with that. My farrier is too busy with being a farrier (doing client's horses, taking continuing education stuff, etc) to be on the internet. Heck, I am lucky if he texts me back with words that have more three letters.


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> I didn't say slap shoes on if it was lame, i said if it required shoes to help with the lameness. Kind of reading comprehension fail. Kevin had a really good example. Boots are not the be all and end all of hoof protection. There are times that shoes are needed. Your comments that you would "never" use shoes shows that you really have no idea what you are talking about.


Or maybe you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. All of our horses are barefoot and I assure you that they work hard. We use the Belgians for plowing, haying, logging, hayrides etc, all on gravel, pavement and hard surfaces and their hooves are strong and hard and there is no lameness. The riding horses are barefoot and get ridden on hard surfaces; gravel, pavement and also grass and rocks and up the mountain and they have strong hard hooves with no lameness. Maybe do some research yourself before jumping to conclusions, horses don't NEED shoes, we choose to put them on because we've bred the hooves right out from under our horses. You want to make a personal attack, maybe know what YOU'RE talking about first.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

DutchFeather said:


> Maybe do some research yourself before jumping to conclusions, horses don't NEED shoes, we choose to put them on because we've bred the hooves right out from under our horses.


How could you say both of those things one right after another?

Yes, we have bred too many horses with out consideration of the quality of their hooves. 

That is the biggest reason why so many horses do need shoes to do their job. That is the biggest reason why the 'but wild horses' theory does not work with our domesticated animals.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

DutchFeather said:


> Or maybe you're the one who doesn't know what you're talking about. All of our horses are barefoot and I assure you that they work hard. We use the Belgians for plowing, haying, logging, hayrides etc, all on gravel, pavement and hard surfaces and their hooves are strong and hard and there is no lameness. The riding horses are barefoot and get ridden on hard surfaces; gravel, pavement and also grass and rocks and up the mountain and they have strong hard hooves with no lameness. Maybe do some research yourself before jumping to conclusions, horses don't NEED shoes, we choose to put them on because we've bred the hooves right out from under our horses. You want to make a personal attack, maybe know what YOU'RE talking about first.


*facepalm* Once again, reading comprehension fail. If a horse is _lame_ and shoes will correct it, are you going to forgo shoes and force the horse to be barefoot? That is what I asked in the first place and you were the one who read other things into. Its great that your horses can be barefoot. Good for you. What happens if one comes up with a hoof issues that a shoe would fix? I am betting you wouldn't touch shoes with a 10-foot pole based on you asinine reactions here.

I do happen to know what I am talking about. I have dealt with lameness issues that required shoes. As soon as those were taken care of... Guess what? Back to barefoot horses I went because that is personally what I prefer, *but* I am willing to see the point behind shoes and the reasoning that some horses need them. Closing your mind off to that fact makes you look, well, bad and unwilling to learn.


And this, totally this - 



Alwaysbehind said:


> DutchFeather said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe do some research yourself before jumping to conclusions, horses don't NEED shoes, we choose to put them on because we've bred the hooves right out from under our horses.
> ...


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## DutchFeather (May 9, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> *facepalm* Once again, reading comprehension fail. If a horse is _lame_ and shoes will correct it, are you going to forgo shoes and force the horse to be barefoot? That is what I asked in the first place and you were the one who read other things into. Its great that your horses can be barefoot. Good for you. What happens if one comes up with a hoof issues that a shoe would fix? I am betting you wouldn't touch shoes with a 10-foot pole based on you asinine reactions here.


Are you really going to try to tell me that shoes are the only way to fix a problem with lamesness? Really? No, not at all. Any competant and trained Natural Hoofcare Practitioner can fix the problem without shoes. You're reading comprehension seems to be what's at fault here because I gave you the answer to this question already. My NHP can fix the lameness without shoes. So no, I will not touch shoes. 

And I can say that horses don't need shoes, although we've bred the hooves out of our horses, because if you read some of my other posts and did the research yourself, you'd know that Natural Hoofcare gives you're horse their hoof back and returns full function and flex to the hoof. Where shoes thin the hoof wall, reduce the nail line, and harm the frog, Natural Hoofcare thickens the hoof wall, hardens the hoof and increases circulation to the horses' legs. Like I said, do your research with an open mind instead of thinking it's all B.S. You might learn something. My NHP use to be a Farrier, so she knows both sides of the fence, not just the Natural Hoofcare side.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

DutchFeather said:


> Are you really going to try to tell me that shoes are the only way to fix a problem with lamesness? Really? No, not at all. Any competant and trained Natural Hoofcare Practitioner can fix the problem without shoes. You're reading comprehension seems to be what's at fault here because I gave you the answer to this question already. My NHP can fix the lameness without shoes. So no, I will not touch shoes.


 Where did I state that shoes and only shoes will fix lameness? Oh wait, that is becuase I did _not_ say that. _You_ arethe one saying that. I stated that there are *some* lameness issues that need shoes to be corrected. *You *are the one reading that as "all" lameness need shoes. 



DutchFeather said:


> And I can say that horses don't need shoes, although we've bred the hooves out of our horses, because if you read some of my other posts and did the research yourself, you'd know that Natural Hoofcare gives you're horse their hoof back and returns full function and flex to the hoof. Where shoes thin the hoof wall, reduce the nail line, and harm the frog, Natural Hoofcare thickens the hoof wall, hardens the hoof and increases circulation to the horses' legs. Like I said, do your research with an open mind instead of thinking it's all B.S. You might learn something. My NHP use to be a Farrier, so she knows both sides of the fence, not just the Natural Hoofcare side.


Someone has been in the koolaid.

Some horses cannot and will not grow more hoof wall. Saying that it will in all cases is extremely closed minded.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I truly believe shoes are only needed when the owner chooses/has to manage the horse in a way that doesn't allow barefoot to be a feasible option. 

Ndappy, can you show me a hoof pathology/lameness that could NOT be fixed with boots but could be fixed with shoes? Genuinely curious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I don't see boots being a feasible option in a lot of instances as you can't leave them on like shoes. They have to be removed for periods of time. More so in muddy or wet conditions.


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> I don't see boots being a feasible option in a lot of instances as you can't leave them on like shoes. They have to be removed for periods of time. More so in muddy or wet conditions.


Why can't you leave them on? Boots have come a long way in terms of design in recent years. People use boots to travel through all footing conditions, including mud, water, etc. As long as the boots are properly fitted there is no reason that they cannot be used for prolonged periods of time.

Also, one major appeal to boots is that you CAN take them off if you wish to give your horse's feet room to breathe. Not an option with nailed-on shoes.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

There are glue on boots nowadays that can be left on for far longer periods of time. 

Andrew Bowe, the person I am learning to trim from, has his property set up for barefoot rehab of navicular/founder and lots of other pathologies. He mainly uses boots in conjunction with rubber or sand floors.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

I had a horse who bruised one of her front feet to the point where she could barely walk, laid down in her stall, was refusing to get up and go to turnout and this is a horse who is convinced that she should always be first to turnout and the very last to leave. 

My farrier couldn't make it out for until the next day so we put padded boots on her at his advice, didn't help much at all, she stumbled outside and spent the day in the roundpen because she wouldn't go any further.

Farrier came and said that he wanted to put shoes on her fronts, it would relieve her pain. As soon as he was done, she happily walked to turnout and the minute I took her halter off, she was GONE... off running to her buddies. 

I'd say she NEEDED those shoes! Stumbling and wincing around in boots while being miserable and lonely in the roundpen because her buddies were all off in turnout or in shoes and happily playing with her buddies? Not a difficult decision for me.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Magaidh said:


> Why can't you leave them on? Boots have come a long way in terms of design in recent years. People use boots to travel through all footing conditions, including mud, water, etc. As long as the boots are properly fitted there is no reason that they cannot be used for prolonged periods of time.
> 
> Also, one major appeal to boots is that you CAN take them off if you wish to give your horse's feet room to breathe. Not an option with nailed-on shoes.


Find me a boot manufacturer who says it is OK for a horse to wear them 24/7/365 please. I have yet to find one.

When you have a horse that is not even pasture sound barefoot the only option for removing the boots to let the feet breath is a stall. And I know keeping a horse in a stall goes totally against the proper management theories of the barefoot contingency.


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Find me a boot manufacturer who says it is OK for a horse to wear them 24/7/365 please. I have yet to find one.
> 
> When you have a horse that is not even pasture sound barefoot the only option for removing the boots to let the feet breath is a stall. And I know keeping a horse in a stall goes totally against the proper management theories of the barefoot contingency.


I don't think anyone suggested a horse should be in a pair of boots for a year without respite. 

Find me a veterinarian or farrier who says it is healthy for a horse to wear a metal shoe 24/7/365. 

A non-pasture sound horse can be turned out bare in an arena, round pen, or soft-footed paddock for respite from boots when necessary.

I too am curious what conditions can only be treated through traditional shoeing methods, and not the use of boots.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Magaidh said:


> Find me a veterinarian or farrier who says it is healthy for a horse to wear a metal shoe 24/7/365.


I can find you several.... Though I am sure none are willing to join a horse forum just to tell you that.



Magaidh said:


> A non-pasture sound horse can be turned out bare in an arena, round pen, or soft-footed paddock for respite from boots when necessary.


Well yes, I suppose if you board some place with these options. Not all of us have fancy set-ups that allow for delicate foot turn out. 
And even boarding barns that do have these options many are not willing to put on and take off cumbersome boots on a daily basis.




Magaidh said:


> I too am curious what conditions can only be treated through traditional shoeing methods, and not the use of boots.


A truly flat footed horse. Which makes the horse not sound with out something there to protect their feet.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

My horse is shod on all four feet 24/7/365.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I can find you several.... Though I am sure none are willing to join a horse forum just to tell you that.
> 
> 
> Well yes, I suppose if you board some place with these options. Not all of us have fancy set-ups that allow for delicate foot turn out.
> ...


A horse needing the use of hospital plates to hold required medication in place.

My friend's 5 y/o post legged QH with advancing navicular. Without special shoes & padding he would be dead, though even with I doubt he will see his teens. Boots did not work for him as he has to have special angles.

My mare with a mild club foot. She is barefoot all around except that foot which has a tiny shoe just to the toe area. Without it her toe will break off to nothing.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Alwaysbehind said:


> A truly flat footed horse. Which makes the horse not sound with out something there to protect their feet.


Firstly, I am a believer in barefoot. My own horses are all bare, and I trim them myself. Every horse I buy goes bare, but you know, one of the things I examine closely when shopping for a new horse is their feet - to judge if they can be sound and comfortable bare or not. I have in the past turned away from horses I KNOW NEEDED TO BE SHOD.

And that's not to say I think only perfect feet can be bare. My gelding, Claymore, and my mare Freyja, were both laminitic when I got them, Freyja in particular had very bad feet and it took the better part of a year and a half of work to get her sound. I picked out a horse for my ex boarder that had foundered so bad her soles were actually LOWER than her hoof wall. In a few months she was pasture sounds and able to be ridden comfortably in boots.

The obsession and the zealots in the barefoot industry right now are what is giving us a bad name - I mentioned this recently in another thread. 

One true way-isms don't work in the horse world, and there will always be one out there to prove you wrong if you feel the need to be preachy.

Do I feel a lot of hoof conditions could be fixed/helped with a horse being barefoot? Certainly!

Do I feel ALL hoof conditions could be fixed/helped with a horse being barefoot? Absolutely not.

When you are so stuck on promoting your ideas that you no longer choose to put what is in the INDIVIDUAL horse's best interests first - you have completely lost the point of what you are trying to accomplish. Your repeated insistence that "this is the one true way! The only right way!" just convinces other non-barefoot folk what kool-aid drinkers the whole lot of us are. Yelling at people they are harming their horses by putting shoes on is NOT the way to convince someone to try something new - it only shuts them down from hearing what you might be trying to say. Ever hear the "catch more flies with honey" term? That's a lesson a lot of the barefoot zealots need to learn.

Farriers need to learn more about natural balance and barefoot trimming to be able to add those skills to their repertoire - but not to replace them entirely. Barefoot zealots need to understand that barefoot is NOT always the only, or even the best, option in certain circumstances - some horses do need shoes! Accept it! Only when both fields are dictated by actual discussion instead of finger pointing, and using logic instead of attacks, will a good middle ground (which is what we NEED, people) ever be reached.

I have personally examined numerous pictures of AB's horses' feet. My suggestion to her? Actually matched the advice she was getting from her own farrier. If she can try to get through the winter with him barefoot, it might help. BUT that's only if he can be comfortable with it. The horse has FLAT, FLAT FEET. This is not due to the way they have grown, like from a lack of care, and it's not due to being shod. I have seen many flat feet that can be repaired through the use of barefoot trimming, boots and pads, I honestly believe this horse is *NOT* one of them. I guarantee if that horse was left barefoot, trimmed regularly, and even booted, for 2 years, his feet would still be flat. And he'd be in pain and miserable. Push the horse to go barefoot and have him unusable, limping around the pasture, and getting constant stone bruises and abscesses? Or put shoes on and watch him stride off sound? My opinion - put the **** shoes on the horse and let him be comfortable and usable. 
*
Don't fight for an ideal that simply DOES NOT WORK for your INDIVIDUAL horse. There IS no one-size-fits-all answer, anywhere in the horse world! *

I give AB full credit as she was very willing to try barefoot and explore the option, perhaps more thoroughly than a lot of people out there would. It was not through lack of understanding or giving reasonable transitional time or support that her horse can not be barefoot. Putting shoes on HER horse is the best decision for HER horse, and one I support fully. 

Please, people - if you really believe in barefoot helping horses, then be reasonable about it - stop making all of us look like a bunch of head cases pushing a "you're killing your horse!" agenda.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

^ well said.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

natisha said:


> ^ well said.


I second that.

And thank you, Indy, for your support and input on my old guy's feet.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

natisha said:


> ^ well said.


Third that!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Very well said Indy. Very well said indeed.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Thank you, Indy. _Very_ well put. :thumbsup:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Indy.


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

Indy, thanks for voicing your very coherent opinion! I do my best not to come across as a "koolaider" but this is something I am very passionate about.

I suppose the only thing that I'm looking for is that people be willing to examine the possibilities of barefoot. I hope that my strong opinions haven't turned people off, because there really is so much potential for benefit!

Alwaysbehind, I did not know your own personal history with your horse's feet. I know that flatfootedness has been corrected with good barefoot trimming. I'm sorry it didn't work out for your guy, and good for you for being willing to examine all the options.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Magaidh, hopefully Indy's insight will help you pass along good information with out moving over into the 'shove it down their throat' side in the future.

Most people are not dumb.
No one wants to pay more for shoes, have the hassle and worry that come with shoes (losing them, them getting lose at all the wrong times, etc).

We just know that some horses need them. 

Being willing to do what is best for the individual horse makes for a good horseman. Looking at the world with only one opinion leaves you missing out on many things.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Indy BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Esp this line!!! "*One true way-isms don't work in the horse world, and there will always be one out there to prove you wrong if you feel the need to be preachy."*

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If more people thought like this, the horse world would certainly be more harmonious 

Horses are individuals, just like us. Do I need orthotics in my shoes to run comfortably? Nope. Does my hubby? Yep. Does he make me wear them even though I don't need them? No he does not. Do I tell him he shouldn't wear them just because I don't happen to need them? No, that's ridiculous. 

Anyone out there think that I should wear them just because or that he should forego them just because? Doesn't make sense...applies to shod vs barefoot as well. More people need to realize that.

Oh, and my mare is barefoot, always has been. I see no reason to put shoes on her since she's always sound. If she starts ever getting chronically or frequently ouchy or we ever happen to want to compete at Rolex (not likely lol) and need studs or some extreme like that, then I will gladly put shoes on her to make her safe/comfortable. Until then, she doesn't need them, so why waste the $$ and put holes in her hooves if there is no need to?


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Being willing to do what is best for the individual horse makes for a good horseman. Looking at the world with only one opinion leaves you missing out on many things.


 VERY well said as well! Bravo my fellow HorseForumers!


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Oh geez. 

Thanks everyone. Didn't expect a standing ovation for my opinions. lol

Magaidh, I totally get being passionate about it, I really do. And I totally understand wanting to educate people about the benefits. I think that's a "good cause". But where you run into trouble is 1.) assuming the folks you are talking about HAVEN'T already educated themselves about it, when ultimately they might have, and just made a different decision than you. And 2.) when it goes from trying to educate, to arguing with people about the choices they have made for their own horses. 

Think of it like any other subject you would try to teach someone. As you said, you want people to understand the BENEFITS. So teach benefits. Don't teach your subject of the benefits of barefoot by attacking the shoeing industry and telling everyone how much damage it causes/how evil it is/how much they are hurting their horses by shoeing them. 

Would you teach someone about soccer by telling them how awful baseball is?


HITS, I find horses are very good at making us humble. If you try to say "no horse does that" it's a sure thing your own will the very next day.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Well yes, I suppose if you board some place with these options. Not all of us have fancy set-ups that allow for delicate foot turn out. 
And even boarding barns that do have these options many are not willing to put on and take off cumbersome boots on a daily basis.

^ This is my point about management. Many people aren't willing or able to keep an individual horse in the conditions it needs to be barefoot, so shoes become the only option. Not judging anyone for it, we all do what we have to do to keep our horses sound with what we've got. However it doesn't always mean the horse needs shoes, full stop. It just means the horse needs shoes, in that situation. 

To be honest, I don't care if I come off as a 'Kool aider'. What I have learnt, from professionals in their fields, has led me to believe that shoes can and do cause damage, simply because of what they are and how they work. I do beloved they can be used with success - when I say success, I mean in regards to making an horse able to work in environments/management situations mean barefoot won't - but I truly don't believe shoes allow a fully functional hoof. If that makes me a kool aider, so be it. I don't think I have ever judged anyone for having their horses shod, but I'm not going to pretend I don't believe the above just because others don't agree. 

I ride with many people who have shod horses. I ride with many people who have their horses bare but quite neglected and not trimmed often enough. And I never say a word unless asked for my opinion. Here, it is supposed to be a place we can share our opinions, so I do, and I don't think we should have to temper what we believe to fit in with other people's views. Why should I HAVE to accept shoes don't cause harm/shoes may be a necessity, when I don't believe it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Wild Spot, I do not disagree, but then comes real life. 

If all things were perfect then of course we would all be able to set our lives up in a manner that every horse we owned would have just right everything, period.

But it is not a utopian society and most of us do not have an endless stream of money.

Then you add glitches into the system. A horse with flat feet who is the most sound (not totally by any stretch) on soft deep sand footing but same horse has a history of ligament issues that do not allow him to hang out in soft sand footing.


If I was smart, like Indy, I would not have bought a horse that has feet that will not handle being barefoot. There is nothing more frustrating than having to deal with shoes on a retired horse.
I have owned this horse for almost 15 years. He was bought for his ability to do his job well and for his amazing brain. Not his hoof quality. I am certainly not going to toss him out because he is less than handy to own because he has high maintenance feet.


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## holly333 (May 21, 2011)

I pulled the shoes off my gelding two years ago and he has been a poster child with great feet and no signs of lameness. I put him up for sale and the vet check showed some strange things where the tendon attaches near the navicular bone. Could this be from not having shoes on? They also said that he tested sore at the ankle on the right front. For the last two years he has been shoe-less and ridden twice a week with regular turnout. I am thinking about putting shoes on the front feet to support something that might be going on here. Is it possible that the digital x-rays are just showing normal structural changes on a natural hoofed horse? Most vet doesn't see these types of horses and definitely not on show horses. The vet doing the exam said that it wasn't navicular but it raised a red flag. He recommended a second opinion. Any input out there?


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## angelsgrace (Apr 30, 2009)

Hey guys thanks for replying,
I was wondering could this be probable, I was talk to a friend of mine jenna and she's very experienced with horses more so than me or even most of my pony club, And we were discussing abscess's in all of the horses we'd both worked with which is probably 35 put together or more, And we came to the conculsion that if a horse had been or was shod their abscess broke through along the coronary band,

And horses that had never been shod they abscesses if they had any broke through in much less damaging places and had less instants of having them at all.

I'm not bagging shoes or barefoot here and please no more fighting it petty and you can't change the other persons mind i started this thread to become more informed in other peoples opinions and what their experiances not to see people bag each others opinions,

What i would like to know now is it possible that me and Jenna's conclusion could be right, What your story with abscesses had the horse been shod or barefoot and where it broke out and why they got one, if you know.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

My mare got an abcess in her hind foot about a week after I got her, I don't think she had been shod on the hinds ever, but was very neglected. It broke through in two different places above her coronary band in her heel.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

My mare has had 1 abscess in the 3 yrs I've had her (she is barefoot). We went on a trail with crushed limestone and one tiny piece got stuck up in the corner and caused an abscess. it hasn't happened since and we've been on that trail tons of times since so I think it was just one of those things. 

The vet dug it out right where it started so not sure where it would have come out had we let it. She's never had any lameness issues other than that one incident and has never had a shoe on her. She is 10 now. She's ridden 3-4 times per week and does Eventing, Jumpers, Hunter paces and fox hunting  

That said I think she's the exception not the rule  don't think many horses could do that barefoot without issue she just has big round hard supportive tootsies so guess I got lucky 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

^ All my horses do the same, so maybe she is the rule :]

I chase cattle across rocky country barefoot, as well as all my regular trails around the roads of my city and regular competeing at numerous disciplines.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Nice! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

angelsgrace said:


> And we were discussing abscess's in all of the horses we'd both worked with which is probably 35 put together or more, And we came to the conculsion that if a horse had been or was shod their abscess broke through along the coronary band,
> 
> And horses that had never been shod they abscesses if they had any broke through in much less damaging places and had less instants of having them at all.


I will have to tell my herd that they need to change their MO to meet your not very scientific study.

Curious, of the 35 horses in your study how many abscesses have you dealt with?


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Don't get this part of your comment. 

And we came to the conclusion that if a horse Had or Was shod, their abcess broke through along the coronary band. 

In my opinion, if a horse has an abcess, it will break wherever it needs to. Whether shod or not. 

This is not a scientific formulation mind you. Just my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

I think she and her friend were just trying to find a pattern and see if there was any scientific reasoning behind the one they found, which is why she was asking others their personal experience as well to either support or debunk it 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Oh I understand. I see their point of a possible pattern, but it looks as if they formulated their conclusion. To me, its not correct. My opinion is wherever there is a weakness in the hoof that is a probable area where an abscess will reveal itself. Whether shod or unshod.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Magaidh (Apr 13, 2011)

mbender said:


> My opinion is wherever there is a weakness in the hoof that is a probable area where an abscess will reveal itself. Whether shod or unshod.


I agree. Most abscesses I've seen break through the coronet band or heel bulbs, simply because these are the easiest/softest places. The only times I've seen them come through the sole or bars is when I've followed a discovered bacterial point of entry to dig it out, and given relief that way. Only once have I seen one blow out through the white line in the toe, but that horse had some serious white line problems. For the most part abscesses won't work their own way out through the sole, in my experience.


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

** Major noob shoe question warning **

If you ride on pavement, can you still barefoot? Do hooves wear down faster on pavement if you don't have shoes?

Again, sorry for the noob question.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

If your horse is sound on pavement and is not wearing down faster than it is growing then you can for sure ride on pavement barefoot.


Shod vs. not shod on pavement (which is what you asked I believe) of course the horse with out shoes will wear their feet some on the pavement where a shod horse will wear their shoes.

Some horses have rock hard feet and can do fine on pavement with our risk of wearing too much down. Others are not so lucky.


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

Alwaysbehind said:


> If your horse is sound on pavement and is not wearing down faster than it is growing then you can for sure ride on pavement barefoot.
> 
> 
> Shod vs. not shod on pavement (which is what you asked I believe) of course the horse with out shoes will wear their feet some on the pavement where a shod horse will wear their shoes.
> ...


Thanks, AB. I kinda figured this was the case. Hugo has never been properly ridden so I don't think he's ever had shoes. I think I'm going to try barefoot and see how that goes. I try to live by the adage 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I think seeing how he does barefoot is a great plan.


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## angelsgrace (Apr 30, 2009)

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> I think she and her friend were just trying to find a pattern and see if there was any scientific reasoning behind the one they found, which is why she was asking others their personal experience as well to either support or debunk it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


exactly thankyou


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