# Appaloosa colors



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

It hurts my brain.

I just spent 3 hours working on a project over it. I love Appaloosas (someday in my fantasy future I shall have many of them!) and I was surprised just how much is going on there. I love learning about colors...but jeez!! I found lots of good info, but some of it just contradicted itself or was like "you breed blanket to leopard you get palomino" (not really, over exaggerating) but I certainly learned a lot.

Now I'd like to see your appaloosa's and/or tell me what you have learned about them 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thunderspark (Oct 17, 2012)

I have one appy gelding. His name is Chips, I've had him since he was 6 weeks old, his Mom and him came here when he was that age. He was solid sorrel with the white blanket but roaned out around 3 or 4yrs. old....he's now 9. He isn't registered but could be.....his Mom's reg. name is Paint Me Grand and we named him Paint Chips but call him Chips. How he got that name is because when we brought him here he was chewing on the paint chips in the trailer LOL
I still haven't figured out how to add a pic to a message like this but will try to tomorrow....it's 1am here and time to hit the hay!


----------



## Skunkworks (Oct 22, 2012)

Here is T-bone about 6-7 years ago:








We're not sure if he is a POA or small Appaloosa or a heinz 57. He acted more like a full grown appy then most of the POA's we were around as kids. He's lost a lot of his yellow color and has gone slightly darker on his points now. My goal now is after I retire sometime in the far, far, future, I'm going to get into foundation appaloosa's and go for the buckskin coloration.


----------



## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

Ha, another chance to post pictures of my boy up. Yay.

Okay. I THINK He is a Black/Blue Roan with a blanket w/spots that starts at his withers. And Sabiano(?) is at work with his blue eye ,white socks, and the face white... I think. No yes?












More pictures on this thread
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-pictures/appaloosa-colt-125113/page12/


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Life will be much, much easier for you if you just accept that Appaloosa colouring is just funky and incomprehensible


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Just like minis. :rofl:


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

It was so painful to freaking learn about. "This might happen...but maybe like this...or this...and even maybe like this."

My pinto color project was soooo much easier! Hahah

What is a Heinz 47?! That's Ketchup right?! Hahah
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Drifting said:


> Ha, another chance to post pictures of my boy up. Yay.
> 
> Okay. I THINK He is a Black/Blue Roan with a blanket w/spots that starts at his withers. And Sabiano(?) is at work with his blue eye ,white socks, and the face white... I think. No yes?


To me, he looks a little too solid underneath his white to be roan. If Sabino is causing his white marks I do believe Sabino often leaves roan-edged white markings. In a roan, I would personally expect the color underneath the white (the dark spots specifically) to have a more salt-and-pepper thing going than what I can see from the photos. He's gorgeous regardless. I love blanket Appys.


----------



## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

I don't think he's going to keep the solid that he has now. I mean it would be great if he did, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that roan out when he sheds his winter coat. If not this year, then the next. But that's the fun with appys, you never know! I'm just crossing my fingers he won't varnish out ( I don't think he will, his Sire hasn't and his dam is a QH.)


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

He already looks like he has started varnishing to me. Varnish is what will make him lighter. He has the varnishing gene, that's why he is also able to have a blanket, which is caused by a separate gene. Technically, every Appaloosa is a varnish roan, some just don't show it like the others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

He's for sure Varnish roan, not true roan. Varnish roan affects different areas of the horse differently.


----------



## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

See? Learn something new every day!
Well, I hope he doesn't turn all white! Let's go with that one.  Keep the spots baby.


----------



## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Horses are just awesome like that. This isn't an Appaloosa, but there's an Andalusian colt at the farm my boy is at who's greying out (I think from dark bay) and he's at a stage where he looks so beautifully roan I wish he'd stop. My BO is hoping that when he finishes he'll look like his mother, which she calls a "white bay" (she greyed out and is now almost pure white, somewhat fleabitten, and has black points).


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

He will not lose his spots Drifter, but he will more than likely end up white otherwise.


----------



## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

That's okay then. As long as I can still play connect-the-dots on him, we're good.  (Not that he isn't a sweetheart, I'd love him regardless.)


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

If he completely whites out with the varnish, you'll have your self a nice little leopard, chances are there are more spots under that black just waiting to pop out!


----------



## alexis rose (Oct 1, 2012)

Here are my Appaloosas. They are mother and son. Shadow is very old now and has the very short and ugly rat tail. I wish they both had more spots! I am just thankful Phar Lap didn't get the tail.


----------



## alexis rose (Oct 1, 2012)

And Phar Lap is more colorful when he is wet!


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Click to view -


----------



## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Drifting said:


> Okay. I THINK He is a Black/Blue Roan with a blanket w/spots that starts at his withers. And Sabiano(?) is at work with his blue eye ,white socks, and the face white... I think. No yes?


What a beautiful and cute colt! I hope he did well with his recent surgery? 
I think he is indeed a blue roan, a color term the differs for Appaloosas and Quarter Horses (different genes cause the roaning, a roan Appaloosa does not necessarily have the dark head as Quarter Horses do). The leopard spots do override the roaning, he will not lose them but quite the opposite - the body-roaning may fades and the spots get brighter. 
I had a gelding - probably an Arabian-Appaloosa-Mix - who got brighter in his summer coat:

Winter









Summer









One thing about this coloring - it never gets boring and each hair change is going to be a new surprise 

As for a sabino pattern - maybe, his feet markings are not very "clean" which can be a sign for sabino - as well as the blue eye. But it could be normal markings mixed with some freak Appaloosa gene, too, I have seen Quarter Horses with no sign of Sabino nowhere in their pedigree but partial or full blue eyes.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

caljane said:


> As for a sabino pattern - maybe, his feet markings are not very "clean" which can be a sign for sabino - as well as the blue eye. But it could be normal markings mixed with some freak Appaloosa gene, too, I have seen Quarter Horses with no sign of Sabino nowhere in their pedigree but partial or full blue eyes.


The reason you see non-sabino horses with blue eyes is probably because they are not related to sabino. Blue eyes are currently thought to be caused by frame and splash, not sabino.


----------



## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> The reason you see non-sabino horses with blue eyes is probably because they are not related to sabino. Blue eyes are currently thought to be caused by frame and splash, not sabino.


Sorry, I wasn't very clear here - for example we have a sorrel filly (AQHA) with two partial blue eyes with a pedigree where neither the sire nor the dam family show any signs of any overo pattern.


----------



## alexis rose (Oct 1, 2012)

This thread has been really helpful to me too!


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Aw come on, guys...Appys come in the same colors as any other horse. Just think of the lesser breeds as being like Walmart jeans, whereas Appys are those pricey, fancy designer jeans dressed up with bling and foo-foo...:lol:

Why settle for plain old chestnut when you can have this?










Or this?









And what could be more boring than an off-the-rack palomino? Why not go with the best, add some bangles, and put some zest in your life?










And as for Bay, who wants a plain old bay that walks on to a western movie set and disappears into the herd? Go for the gusto...










COMING...










OR GOING...











You can't beat an Appy...


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

caljane said:


> Sorry, I wasn't very clear here - for example we have a sorrel filly (AQHA) with two partial blue eyes with a pedigree where neither the sire nor the dam family show any signs of any overo pattern.



Splash and sabino ARE "overo" patterns and all white is either caused by a pinto gene such as splash or sabino, or by LP or PATN.


----------



## alexis rose (Oct 1, 2012)

I know I love my Appaloosas even though they don't have much bling.


----------



## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> Splash and sabino ARE "overo" patterns and all white is either caused by a pinto gene such as splash or sabino, or by LP or PATN.


Yes ... did I say something different? Sorry, misunderstanding then! :?


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Nope, but I am clarifying. 

If ha horse has blue eyes, whether it be full or partial, they have some sort of "overo" or "pinto" gene causing it. Just because the horses in the pedigree didn't personally show it doesn't mean it's not there.


----------



## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

NdAppy said:


> Nope, but I am clarifying.
> 
> If ha horse has blue eyes, whether it be full or partial, they have some sort of "overo" or "pinto" gene causing it. Just because the horses in the pedigree didn't personally show it doesn't mean it's not there.


Okay, not totally disagreeing here, except that the question is: would that same gene that causes the partial blue eyes also be able to cause excessive white markings? I am not sure if that question can be answered since the overo genes are still not entirely decoded. But since there are no excessive white markings to be found in this fillies broader family tree I would almost say "no" - without proof, of course  - and now - what defines an Overo gene? Is a blue eye by definiton always an overo or pinto treat? Can it not be just a blue eye? A Cremello has blue eyes but does not have to be an overo. 

How did we get from a pretty appaloosa stud colt to overo-gen causing blue eyes? :wink:


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Any white, not related to the Lp complex, is a form of an "overo"--splash, frame, sabino--working. Got a blaze? Wahooo gotch some overo! Maybe just a snip, or star, or sock? Still overo!


----------



## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

MangoRoX87 said:


> Any white, not related to the Lp complex, is a form of an "overo"--splash, frame, sabino--working. Got a blaze? Wahooo gotch some overo! Maybe just a snip, or star, or sock? Still overo!


So, you are saying that every solid colored horse with a white marking (star, white coronet, ...) is an overo? Wouldn't that be stretching the definition of "overo" a bit?


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

caljane said:


> So, you are saying that every solid colored horse with a white marking (star, white coronet, ...) is an overo? Wouldn't that be stretching the definition of "overo" a bit?


No, I wouldn't say that. Because I don't use the term "overo" - it is a catch-all word that covers lots and is very ambiguous. "Overo" can refer to one or several genetic types - frame, splash, sabino, rabicano, dominant white. These should all be named on their own, with their correct term, and the words "overo" and "tovero" completely canned by the knowledgeable, and thus taken out of the vocabulary of those who don't know or don't care about the genetics behind it.

As far as "normal" white such as a star, a sock etc, yes, these are all cause by one of the white patterning genes. All of it, every white marking. And just to throw a spanner in the works, minimal tobiano often presents as high stockings that would be considered "normal". All white patterning genes can be mistaken for "normal" white in their minimal forms, except rabicano which starts on the flank/belly area, and perhaps dominant white, of which I have not ever seen a "minimal" example.


----------



## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

caljane said:


> What a beautiful and cute colt! I hope he did well with his recent surgery?


Purdy horsie.  

I had to put his castration off for another month (or two, we'll see.) I had an emergency come up that I had to use the funds for, and didn't want to dip into my emergency funds. Thankfully, he is a super laid back colt and can wait a little while longer, though I'd like to get it done sooner rather then later. Maybe as his Christmas present. 



I love learning new things about color here.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Drifting said:


> I had to put his castration off for another month... Maybe as his Christmas present.


I'm glad you're not my mommy...:hide:


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Faceman said:


> I'm glad you're not my mommy...:hide:


I thought Santa was meant to bring a big sack... not take one away...


----------



## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> I thought Santa was meant to bring a big sack... not take one away...


:rofl:

It'll be a lot worse if his wolf teeth are able to be done at the same time, then he'll be hurting from both ends.

Poor baby. I feel sorry for him.


----------



## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

bright bay, varnish roan. he is a draft/appy








Pickles. Sire is a chestnut with a blanket, blaze and four high whites. Dam is a bay aqha, minimal white markings. Pickles is a bay, with all appy traits, varnishing out.








Misty is dark bay, with a blanket and spots, slowly varnishing out








and bubbles, dark bay with spots and a blanket, varnishing out.


----------



## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

Walter is a chestnut with a spotted blanket, and he is roaning.


----------



## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

MangoRoX87 said:


> What is a Heinz 47?! That's Ketchup right?! Hahah_Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, Heinz is a Ketchup Brand. But in this case Heinz 57 refers to a mutt or mixed breed with so many mixes that you don't know what their breeding is. It's another term for a Grade Horse (at least in this case).


----------



## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

I wish I had a picture of one of the horses I used to ride years ago. I'm fairly sure he was some type of varnish. He looked a lot like BlueSpark's Bubbles. His name was JD. When my mother asked how old he was when I started riding, they said "he's been 30 for 10 years" XD and he was still going strong.


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

appaloosa pattern inheritence is very well understood.. 

Did you know if you breed a fewspot to a SOLID horse you will get spots everytime?! 

Inheritance Information for Appaloosa-specific CSNB - Appaloosa coat patterns, coat colour genetics and practical information for breeders of spotted horses - The Appaloosa Project


----------



## MissColors (Jul 17, 2011)

Sorry about the huge photos. This is my app Kelo. Or registered R.F. Kelo's Chance. He is what I think you would consider varnish. He actually changes color. In the summer and when he was a colt he was super soral red but in the winter he is gray. His leopard spots are chocolate brown and don't change colors. I can't figure him out. Or his color anyway. 







































_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MissColors (Jul 17, 2011)

Oh and his tail is real. And he is starting to get more white I think sometimes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

http://www.horseforum.com/members/37278/album/horses-4831/maverick-fav-2-33422.jpg
This is Maverick, a Black Leopard, he is 100% foundation bred.
http://www.horseforum.com/members/37278/album/horses-4831/summer-32894.jpg
This is Summer, a Buckskin w/blanket & spots
http://www.horseforum.com/members/37278/album/horses-4831/honey-32893.jpg
This is Honey, Summer filly. no spots, but I see some white hairs coming!


----------



## MissColors (Jul 17, 2011)

CAN I PLEASEEEEE HAVE SUMMER!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

ummmm. well for a certain price ! just kidding.


----------



## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

Finally figured out how to post pics. This is fun!
http://www.horseforum.com/members/37278/album/horses-4831/happy-2-33117.jpg
This is Happy a Grulla w/blanket and spots, I will be getting her in November very excited !


----------



## Skunkworks (Oct 22, 2012)

The more I see of them, the more unique foundation Appaloosas look, body wise. They just have a build to them that I can't see happening on other breeds.


----------



## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> appaloosa pattern inheritence is very well understood..
> 
> Did you know if you breed a fewspot to a SOLID horse you will get spots everytime?!
> 
> Inheritance Information for Appaloosa-specific CSNB - Appaloosa coat patterns, coat colour genetics and practical information for breeders of spotted horses - The Appaloosa Project


My aunt and uncle actually donated a lot of horses to their nightblindness study!


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

With the few spot thing..

Also have to make sure they aren't FALSE few spot..such as sabino can make the spots much smaller.

And I wouldn't consider them very well known as there are still studies going on with them and how other colors can even be affected and affect the pattern.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

MangoRoX87 said:


> With the few spot thing..
> 
> Also have to make sure they aren't FALSE few spot..such as sabino can make the spots much smaller.
> 
> ...


 
Pattern is totally different.. there are millions of combinations of patterns that can happen...

but for the most part those punnet squares are correct. The only thing you dont usually know is the extent of pattern you will get. 

and like you said.. some paint genes and greying gene will obviously affect pattern. 

as for false fewspots.. i think in most appyxappy breedings this is not an issue. Its important to know parents and fewspots have characteristics that many people do not realize...

Triangles above hooves... lightening marks on legs...no striping on hooves... and obviously the few placed spots on the body  parentage is important also... certain combinations cannot produce a fewspot... a fewspot is a double lp gene supressing the leopard complex.. So both parents would have to have the LP gene to begin with to even produce a fewspot. 

triangles and lightening marks above hooves and up legs








they do not always continue on the back like this








few spots








fewspot filly in bay for an example


----------



## xxdanioo (Jan 17, 2012)

If you look ba at Walter, he has lightning flashes on three out of four legs. 

Is this caused by anything, or random?


----------



## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

my few spot strawberry roan appy mare i had:


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

xxdanioo said:


> If you look ba at Walter, he has lightning flashes on three out of four legs.
> 
> Is this caused by anything, or random?


It comes in tandem with being a fewspot.. however all dont always have them.


----------



## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Drifting said:


> Ha, another chance to post pictures of my boy up. Yay.
> 
> Okay. I THINK He is a Black/Blue Roan with a blanket w/spots that starts at his withers. And Sabiano(?) is at work with his blue eye ,white socks, and the face white... I think. No yes?
> 
> ...


He's GORGEOUS! I WANT!!!


----------



## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

Palamino few spot..This is Carrot she has tiny yellow dots all over her body.
http://www.horseforum.com/members/37278/album/horses-4831/carrot-34275.jpg


----------



## Serenity616 (Oct 6, 2012)

I want an Appaloosa someday. I used to have a POA/Appaloosa mix but she was a solid chestnut. I do not have her anymore and would love to have an Appy again.


----------



## alexis rose (Oct 1, 2012)

What color is Shadow?


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

alexis rose said:


> What color is Shadow?


 
bay or brown with snoflakes..


you know what she looked like as a foal?


----------



## alexis rose (Oct 1, 2012)

This is Shadow's son Phar Lap. What is he? Is he a few spot? The guy I got him from tried to tell me he is a rare blue roan but I knew that wasn't right.....


----------



## alexis rose (Oct 1, 2012)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> bay or brown with snoflakes..
> 
> 
> you know what she looked like as a foal?


No, I don't. I wish I would have known her when she was a young horse because she is a doll. I just wish I had a lot more years left with her.


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

My Appy dont have any spots
He did have a few blk spots when he was a yearling...And on his papers they have him as "grey" for color..
I am still hoping to see some spots in the future


----------



## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Lol hes not grey, maybe few spot


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

Ha ha! Yea that's what I am thinking...


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Charley - what does he look like wet? Are there any dark spots on his skin?


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

There is some speckles on his rump when he's wet.


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

And different shades of pink, you can tell...Do you think he will change color?? He's only four yrs.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I don't think he will change colour, no. But he has piqued my curiousity for sure. Is he on allbreed?


----------



## Thunderspark (Oct 17, 2012)

I have a appy gelding named Chips, I've had him since he was 6 weeks old. He can be registered but I never bothered to, he's now 9yrs. old. His Mom is registered as Paint Me Grand and his Dad is also registered but I can't remeber under what.








He doesn't have many spots on his rump though but at least he's got a tail LOL He's used for trail riding and my grandkids ride him here in the outdoor arena......


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Thunderspark - I would imagine he started with just the white blanket on his rump, and the white roaning has spread further as he ages?


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i would agree with you chiilaa but it looks like his skin is pink under there, so wouldn't that mean he could have been colored, and then roaned out? especially in only 4 years


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

lilkitty90 said:


> i would agree with you chiilaa but it looks like his skin is pink under there, so wouldn't that mean he could have been colored, and then roaned out? especially in only 4 years


I was referring to Thunderspark's horse specifically lilkitty  

Charley Horse's horse I think is probably a double dilute base with few spot over the top, making any spots hard to see. As I say often, a foal shed can be very dark compared to the horse's grown colour, so even a DD could show some colour before going to the light colour we normally expect. However, without knowing what colours the parents are, it's not an exact answer, more of a guess without all the needed information


----------



## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

thats what i was thinking, i was thinking but i didnt want to say anything without knowing whether the parents were single dilutes


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> I don't think he will change colour, no. But he has piqued my curiousity for sure. Is he on allbreed?


He is registered pure appaloosa. I was looking at his certificate and his yearling pictures he was grey...He had a grey mane and tail, all white w/grey tinge/and spots (not very many) they are scattered big spots about the size of a quarter.

Sire: A Dream Dun Right
Dam: Lets Honkytonk

His reg name: Sunbeach Somewhere

I love these names they come up with!


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

What color was his dam? If he had spots and he lost them, then more than likely he is grey. I found a picture of his sire, but can't find his dam...


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

I had a hard time finding the dam too hold on I may have it book marked.


----------



## Thunderspark (Oct 17, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Thunderspark - I would imagine he started with just the white blanket on his rump, and the white roaning has spread further as he ages?


You're right, he was a sorrel when he was little and he was around 3 or 4 when he started roaning out. People have asked me if I would sell him but I have always said no, he's been here since he was a little guy and I love him too much. I don't ride him but have a friend who's been coming out for the past 3 1/2 yrs. and rides him for me. I have a roan mare who is alot smaller than him who I ride. I prefer a shorter horse LOL I've ridden him the odd time and he's a good boy. My grandson who is 12 rode him by himself a few times this summer out riding with me for the first time.


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

Kinsch Show Horses - Babies Page 

See Honkytonk in lace-she's related to dam by half sibling..So gather this is what the dam looked like. (its all I could find on the dam)
This is also what charley looked like but with more of a darker grey mane and tail.


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

wait that is the dam?! no its gotta be a half sibling...different names Lets honkytonk and honkytonk in lace.
Grand sire: sunbeachhonkytonk
Grand dam: jacks lace
It confusing, I had a hard time searching and this is as close as I got.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

NdAppy said:


> What color was his dam? If he had spots and he lost them, then more than likely he is grey. I found a picture of his sire, but can't find his dam...


In looking at the dam's pedigree, I don't believe she could have any dilute in her. The dam's grandsire is listed as grey, but I don't see how as neither his sire nor dam are listed as grey.

As far as the sire goes, I am assuming he is dunskin - would you agree?

In any case, he can't be double dilute because of the dam, so his color is either grey, fewspot and grey, or fewspot with varnished out spots, although in my experience that would be unusual. My guess would be fewspot and grey...


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

A Dream Dun Right is BEAUTIFUL!!!
I wish my horse took more after him..


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

Faceman said:


> In looking at the dam's pedigree, I don't believe she could have any dilute in her. The dam's grandsire is listed as grey, but I don't see how as neither his sire nor dam are listed as grey.
> 
> As far as the sire goes, I am assuming he is dunskin - would you agree?
> 
> In any case, he can't be double dilute because of the dam, so his color is either grey, fewspot and grey, or fewspot with varnished out spots, although in my experience that would be unusual. My guess would be fewspot and grey...



Did you find his Dam? Lets Honkytonk?? Its funny then how he could be grey.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Face - I beleive the sire is a buckskin. I don't see dun. As for the dam's dam's sire... well he's a TB (MAUI LYPHEOR JACK) listed as grey/roan and his dam is listed as roan which is impossible in TBs. I believe that the horse is question is more than likely grey no matter what pattern it is covering. I've never heard of varnish making spots disappear. Make them appear? yes. Make them disappear? No.


----------



## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

Yes Thoroughbred is in there..He gets his height from that 16.3hh
Ty all for your information, I am learning a lot from these threads.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

NdAppy said:


> Face - I beleive the sire is a buckskin. I don't see dun. As for the dam's dam's sire... well he's a TB (MAUI LYPHEOR JACK) listed as grey/roan and his dam is listed as roan which is impossible in TBs. I believe that the horse is question is more than likely grey no matter what pattern it is covering. I've never heard of varnish making spots disappear. Make them appear? yes. Make them disappear? No.


Buckskin or dunskin, either one is a dilute. I think the dam's pedigree is messed up on Allbreed as it has grey popping up out of nowhere. The reason I suspect he started as a fewspot, or maybe a snowcap with a blanket to the shoulders (like my Rambo had) is he is only 4, and it would be unusual to be that white at 4 if he had started with a pattern with a lot of base color from the shoulders back as grey progresses from front to rear. I don't have a lot of experience with greys, but I have never seen one go white all the way by 4. Perhaps they can...again I don't have a lot of experience with them.

Varnish can cover spots. I haven't seen it often, and usually it only washes them out instead of fully coloring them out (sort of like a varnishing pintaloosa), but I have seen it in non-grey horses. I've not seen it cover the small blackish spots, but the large base color spots. Again, not very often though. My bay leopard stallion Chip was a "tri color" (slang expression, of course), and some of his lighter base color spots were starting to varnish out when I sold him. The darker ones were holding their color though. Don't ask me to explain though, because I can't...


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Faceman said:


> I think the dam's pedigree is messed up on Allbreed as it has grey popping up out of nowhere.


It's not popping up out of nowhere, the closest grey is a TB who is out of a roan TB mare - a genetic impossibility since roan is only in one line of TBs that are all very well known. So it is probable that the mistake is not an allbreed one, but the person who registered the "roan". And I bet when they said roan, they really meant "I don't realise that this horse is going grey, and it has all these white hairs through its coat so it must be roan yeah?" And the horse three generations back from the "first" grey is called "Gray Eagle", which I bet means something significant...


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Face I have noticed that horses with LP and grey grey out at an astronomically fast pace. 

Really back picture and only one I have on hand of Impy, but this was him at 2/3. He was born bright red bay with a small blanket over his hips. By the time he was put down at due to severe colic his spots were completely gone. 









Now with a few spot on a light base with grey I can see any spots "left" by grey to slowly grey out would be hardly visible.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Chiilaa said:


> It's not popping up out of nowhere, the closest grey is a TB who is out of a roan TB mare - a genetic impossibility since roan is only in one line of TBs that are all very well known. So it is probable that the mistake is not an allbreed one, but the person who registered the "roan". And I bet when they said roan, they really meant "I don't realise that this horse is going grey, and it has all these white hairs through its coat so it must be roan yeah?" And the horse three generations back from the "first" grey is called "Gray Eagle", which I bet means something significant...


Yeah, that is what I meant by the grey "popping up" so Allbreed must be wrong. The owner or whoever entered the data into Allbreed should have corrected it when it became obvious it was grey. I wonder if the data was entered by a second or third owner that didn't know anything about TB's...


----------



## littrella (Aug 28, 2010)

So after reading all this, I'm curious as to what Dotty's color & pattern is. She is a reg. POA, 10 years old. I have not seen her papers so I do not know what they have her listed as. Her spots look orange in the light. Her pattern would be leopard spot, right?


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yep she's a leopard.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Faceman said:


> Yeah, that is what I meant by the grey "popping up" so Allbreed must be wrong. The owner or whoever entered the data into Allbreed should have corrected it when it became obvious it was grey. I wonder if the data was entered by a second or third owner that didn't know anything about TB's...


I don't know about the JC, but I do know that a lot of breeders in other registry bodies will mistakenly register greys as roan. I bet the mistake in this case is not on the part of the person entering the information to allbreed, but on the person who registered the two "roan" horses.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Very possibly. I just naturally assume a breeder should know better, but as we know there are breeders and then there are breeders...:rofl:


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Heck people and the JC are STILL registering horses as roan when they are not..


----------



## SunnyMeadeFarm (Sep 3, 2012)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> appaloosa pattern inheritence is very well understood..
> 
> Did you know if you breed a fewspot to a SOLID horse you will get spots everytime?!


Of course, from my understanding of appaloosa genetics, the more spotted (i.e.: Leopards would be the most, fewspot the highest degree) the higher chance the horse has double Lp gene. and since when a foal is created, each parent gives the baby one set of their genes, there would be no way a leopard of any kind could not have a appaloosa baby, even if it doesn't show!


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

You have that backwards. Few spots and snow caps are guaranteed to pass on the appaloosa genes.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

SunnyMeadeFarm said:


> Of course, from my understanding of appaloosa genetics, the more spotted (i.e.: Leopards would be the most, fewspot the highest degree) the higher chance the horse has double Lp gene. and since when a foal is created, each parent gives the baby one set of their genes, there would be no way a leopard of any kind could not have a appaloosa baby, even if it doesn't show!


As NDAppy said, only a homozygous Appy is guaranteed to throw Appy color, and the only homozygous Appys are true fewspots and snowcaps. A leopard, or even a sire and dam that are both leopards, can throw a solid foal.

However I am not convinced that a straight Punnett Square is appropriate, which would result in a 25% production of solids using heterozygous sires and dams. I think there is a bit more going on with the Appy genetics. I produced over 100 Appy and Araloosa foals and only had 2 solid foals, and the 100 foals were about half and half with Appys (25% chance of a solid) and Araloosas (50% chance of a solid). I can't help but think that only 2% of 100 foals being solid was more than coincidence. It is possible, of course - the laws of chance can play games with you, but I am unconvinced nonetheless...


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm with you there Face. There are too many unknowns with Appy genetics to do more than say the homozygous ones will give you color. The appy genes are just way more complicated than the pinto ones.


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

alexis rose said:


> This is Shadow's son Phar Lap. What is he? Is he a few spot? The guy I got him from tried to tell me he is a rare blue roan but I knew that wasn't right.....


 roaned out snocap


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

Faceman said:


> As NDAppy said, only a homozygous Appy is guaranteed to throw Appy color, and the only homozygous Appys are true fewspots and snowcaps. A leopard, or even a sire and dam that are both leopards, can throw a solid foal.
> 
> However I am not convinced that a straight Punnett Square is appropriate, which would result in a 25% production of solids using heterozygous sires and dams. I think there is a bit more going on with the Appy genetics. I produced over 100 Appy and Araloosa foals and only had 2 solid foals, and the 100 foals were about half and half with Appys (25% chance of a solid) and Araloosas (50% chance of a solid). I can't help but think that only 2% of 100 foals being solid was more than coincidence. It is possible, of course - the laws of chance can play games with you, but I am unconvinced nonetheless...


out of those 100 foals... how many breedings were with true snocaps or fewspots and a solid?


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

littrella said:


> So after reading all this, I'm curious as to what Dotty's color & pattern is. She is a reg. POA, 10 years old. I have not seen her papers so I do not know what they have her listed as. Her spots look orange in the light. Her pattern would be leopard spot, right?


 leopard


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> out of those 100 foals... how many breedings were with true snocaps or fewspots and a solid?


None...I have never used a homozygous stallion or mare for breeding stock...


----------



## littrella (Aug 28, 2010)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> leopard


 
Can you give me any insight on her color? Her spots are orange, like pumkin pie orange. I have never seen another horse with that color.


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

Faceman, maybe they weren't homozygous for a pattern, but homozygous for the Lp.

Littrella, sounds to me like a dark palomino or a chestnut.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## alexis rose (Oct 1, 2012)

GhostwindAppaloosa said:


> roaned out snocap


Thank you!


----------



## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

littrella said:


> Can you give me any insight on her color? Her spots are orange, like pumkin pie orange. I have never seen another horse with that color.


 
Hard to tell it very well could be a sunbleached bay/brown leopard (would make sense because you said it was pumpkin colored) Or she is a red leopard (though those spots are often a bit lighter...)


----------



## littrella (Aug 28, 2010)

I have a pic of her on here a page or two back


----------



## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

My new mare Happy. A Grulla with a blanket and spots
http://www.horseforum.com/members/37278/album/horses-4831/happy-042-34504.jpg


----------



## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

Carrot a Palamino few spot
http://www.horseforum.com/members/37278/album/horses-4831/carrot-34275.jpg


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

littrella said:


> Can you give me any insight on her color? Her spots are orange, like pumkin pie orange. I have never seen another horse with that color.


All I know is that appy can really skew base colors. Someone posted on here before a picture of a very orangey/red appy who was genetically grulla IIRC.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

This one Verona? She is indeed a grulla - has been verified by testing.


----------



## Spotted (Sep 19, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> This one Verona? She is indeed a grulla - has been verified by testing.


Wow! I would have thought red dun, if she is carring the dun gene, 
So she is a black, with creme and dun ??? How does her color work ?
beautiful by the way!


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

No cream - just dun and black lol. Her colour works because appaloosa is crazy ****.


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> This one Verona? She is indeed a grulla - has been verified by testing.


Yep, that's the one I was thinking of


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

I saw an Appaloosa that was genetically black but looked closer to a light grulla.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RedSonja (Aug 12, 2012)

Here's my boy cowboy, a leopard palomino. I adopted him, and I really wish I knew more about his breeding  (but oh well, that doesn't stop me from enjoying him!)


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Here's my bay varnish blanket appy Flash I miss him but I had to sell him for financial reasons. He's in kansas now I miss him lots! He was a gorgeous horse!


----------



## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

Molly my Appy cross. Photos in the rough order they where taken.
































































She was in foal in the first two and the last two she was just fat and has lost the weight.
This is her foal from 2011 who I am dead excited to see how he molts out because he had a lot more white one his as a yearling then a foal so hoping he roans out two.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

^^Quite the spectacular view there...


----------



## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

My few spot strawberry roan appy mare who passed away 6 years ago.. Nellie.


----------



## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

It is a lovely few, though some trees wouldn't go amiss, there are very few trees up her. Bet then the mountain views you have in america are just breath taking.


----------



## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

A few proper land scapes


----------



## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

rbarlo32 said:


> A few proper land scapes


You're right - some trees wouldn't hurt, but, boy, you do live in a beautiful country!!!


----------



## rbarlo32 (Aug 9, 2010)

One of the best things about Shetland is the views, well after the ponies of course.


----------



## fanning farms (Jan 11, 2013)

When breeding Apps be aware of the "awful" lethel white gene.

Papa Joe


----------



## MangoRoX87 (Oct 19, 2009)

^^^ Wait....what? I mean frame exists in the App breed I'm sure, but that's the way it is with all stock breeds...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

