# beef cattle disguised as horses...



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Am I alone in thinking horses built like this are not just unhealthy, but ugly??
All the grace of a... Santa Gertrudis! Be a few good steaks to be had tho!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Nope, you're not alone. Anyone who actually believes that horses are functioning beings that need to be able to move around comfortably cannot condone breeding horses that look like that.

Unfortunately, most of the halter industry is only concerned with "get that muscle mass" and "make sure the head is petite", but to hell with the important stuff like comfort and longevity.


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## M123M (Apr 2, 2014)

Surely this photo has had a touch of photoshop done to it? I hope!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Unfortunately, no, it's not photoshopped :-(


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

And I thought the Spanish breeding stock at the county show were hefty...
How on earth do they keep all that muscle on a brood mare 
Might a few steroids be involved, or is it just breeding run over-the-hill crazy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VickiRose (Jul 13, 2013)

That's just gross, it doesn't even look like a horse!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

We breed some nice meat horses.. should send them to Europe.

There used to be meat breeds, we've bred QHs to be that type..

Don't get me started on the form FOLLOWS function!!!! Pet peeve big time.

It's annoying when they have poor conformation (isn't the POINT of halter to promote the BEST of the breed?? (with any animal too!)) but when they look like this...

Not to mention it's just ugly...AND unhealthy.


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## Chokolate (Nov 24, 2012)

Well I wouldn't want to eat any of that meat...rhino must be pretty tough :lol:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Omigosh, what *is* this? Another example of selective breeding by lunatics? That's not even good in cattle. Imagine being born an Arnie by default. Is this the special new salami-making breed???

Nature doesn't produce whole populations of deformed individuals. It takes human effort to make *that* happen. Is it just because they can? Or do they actually think it looks good, and aren't thinking of the consequences?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Those halter QH's look like Belgian Blues. :evil:






They even share the "diaper butt." 















They look so disgusting, I wouldn't even want to eat them! Nasty!

What I don't understand is, why can't well conformed horses actually show in halter? Like say you have an outstanding performance horse. He is probably also built pretty good, right? Why can't that kind of horse win in halter? Why have a horse with bizarre proportions that is only good at standing around? Why not have a horse that can actually work also win at halter? Horses that can perform are also beautiful! They should be doing both. 

People have a really warped sense of "pretty." It would be one thing if these horses were pretty but could do little else. But they are not even pretty. They are really grotesque looking.

Quarter Horses are a great breed......but I really have to wonder what people have done to them lately.

Halter Quarter Horses are an example of why I am not against breeding grade horses. Take just about any grade horse out of anyone's yard and it will be better put together than these horses people are breeding on purpose. Care should be taken when breeding horses. But as long as people think THIS is some kind of conformation standard I just don't know what to say.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

What weird posty legs are stuck onto those hinds too trail horse! 

Its sick isn't it??, we've done some weird stuff to domestic animals & horses probably fall way short of many dogs on the weird breeding fetish stakes!

Happen to be reading about the (other, often mental) traits that tend to crop up when animals are bred to over enhance single traits...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseNpony (Sep 27, 2013)

Those horses do look revolting. To be, a beautiful horse is one that has a good build, and is well proportioned. Not extremely muscley horses.


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## equinesnfelines (Feb 1, 2014)

does anyone else remember when a quarter horse mare could win her halter class--then spend the rest of the day under saddle doing western pleasure, trail class, speed events, etc.? of course this mare had nothing to prove in the cattle events---she had spent 10 hrs the day before working cattle and her 3 yr. old colt was acing his class in cutting!!!!! oh, and the next day after church? mama (who worked the chuckwagon all day at the show) took her for a spin down the trail for 2 hrs. yep--humans sure can mess up a good thing!!!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Can you imagine a horse like the one pictured coping with a good... half day's work even??


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## Chokolate (Nov 24, 2012)

I think that horse would collapse as soon as it tried to move, loosie.

What I think is most worrying is the fact there is a foal standing beside her 0.0

A question of a practical nature, where did the foal go amidst all the muscle? And those contractions must have been...enough to launch a spaceship into orbit :lol:


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

You should have put a warning before the picture .......I had just taken a sip of coffee, saw that THANG, and the coffee came back up!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

horseNpony said:


> Those horses do look revolting. To be, a beautiful horse is one that has a good build, and is well proportioned. Not extremely muscley horses.


I agree, as do many here, but something interesting: Some people actually also find that look attractive in humans. :-o Remember all those iron-man body-building competitions in Arnie's time as an actor... do they still do that stuff? I mean, it's revolting to me. I once heard that look described as "a condom full of walnuts" - that's about it.

I wonder if people who aspire to be Arnie or who find Arnie sexy are more likely to find loosie's case study horse appealing?

Not that I think that makes it right, as the animals have no choice in the matter. They maybe should make inflatable horses like in that photo for people who like that. It's not like they're looking for a good riding horse anyway.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Actually, in the grand scheme of things, it's not been that long ago that "normal" horses were winning halter classes.

This guy was a champion halter horse, and was well known on the circuit for being an unbeatable roping horse and that's been less than 30 years ago.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

trailhorserider said:


> Those halter QH's look like Belgian Blues. :evil:
> 
> Adajio AJY - YouTube
> 
> ...


Diaper butt...so that's what it is called. I've always hated that!!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Chokolate said:


> I think that horse would collapse as soon as it tried to move, loosie.
> 
> What I think is most worrying is the fact there is a foal standing beside her 0.0
> 
> A question of a practical nature, where did the foal go amidst all the muscle? And those contractions must have been...enough to launch a spaceship into orbit :lol:


OMG I swear I didn't even see the foal!!! :shock:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The halter shows have become an example of how humans can screw up anything. The picture below is of our little 13 hand BLM mustang pony. Even at 13 hands, he has a strong back & stout legs and incredible hooves. He went 13 weeks between trims this last time, and all the farrier needed was a rasp. If you need a horse to ride or do work on, he would be a much better bet than a lot of champion show horses!








​ 
Dog shows have ruined a number of fine breeds. Humans do the same to horses. We seem to be incapable of seeing the big picture, so we follow fads to the point of absurdity!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It's a global thing and not just in Quarter horses - we stopped showing yearlings bred to be sport horses in the UK (used to be called hunter classes) a long time ago because if they weren't force fed to be overweight you didn't stand a chance of winning. Its now 2014 and the debate is still going on over there in all show classes - halter or ridden - people are constantly being told that obese horses are unhealthy but until some judges stop placing them at the top of the line nothing will change


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

smrobs, that Buckskin in the picture is gorgeous!!
I, too, am appalled at this, but it isn't the first time I've seen it. Regarding humans who look over muscled, it is bc they have pumped iron in a way to make their muscles bulge. They don't exert any more energy than a marathon runner or a ballet dancer, just worked the muscles in a different way. If one were to be injured and put in a coma for a year the muscles would atrophy.
These poor horse specimens are stuck with their build for their entire life.
Please, THINK about what you are breeding to what and what the result will be.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

Its incredibly imbalanced, but then again, so are human "ideals" of our own species. In much of the world, the people idolized as the most beautiful are at the tiny end of the size spectrum, and unhealthily thin. Marilyn Monroe was a size 14, and not that long ago was considered one of the most beautiful women. Now models are tall and so thin many of them couldn't reproduce if they wanted to without gaining weight. If you threw a t shirt, some cargo pants and a ball cap on most of them, they could play the part of a growing 13 year old boy. Movie stars exercise for hours and hours every day just to maintain a "look". The focus is on a look and a weight instead of health.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Akways reminds me of this



(Not finding the pics I want but you get the point)


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

This is my main problem in breeding 'pure bred' animals. I'm not 100% against it but when you have highly irresponsible breeders like this producing more genetically corrupt (and I'm saying that in the nicest way possible) animals than there's a problem. Heck, I've seen grade horses look way better than some of the show horses I've seen! 

On a side note so that I'm not seen as bashing breed horses: I do know and work for a show horse breeder. All of her horses however are chosen very carefully before breeding and are not allowed to become like this, let alone pass on those genes!


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## Kyro (Apr 15, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jykyk3Kn_ag

He actually moves at 1:25. Poor guy. When there was a close-up of him at the beginning, I didn't see any life in his eyes. Just a dull vision..

We don't have halter classes here in Estonia. I don't know much about them. The idea of a show dedicated to the best horses conformation-wise seems like a very good idea. But these bulky things are far from..anything, really. 

There can't be so many horsepeople breeding for this absurdity, when most know it's so unhealthy and downright disgusting? Can there? I mean, it's common sense when you see a horse like this that you are repulsed by it. Even an average person would see this. How can people not see the fault in this?
If there are people who followed the fad and easily believed this is what a good horse looks like..they would probably believe much anything. So maybe it wouldn't be too hard to make them think otherwise? Start the ball rolling in the opposite direction again.. 

Probably much easier said than done.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Yogiwick said:


> Akways reminds me of this
> 
> 
> 
> (Not finding the pics I want but you get the point)


For a second I thought this was a photo of a gray Bull Frog. 

or, something out of Lord of the Rings, or The Hunger Games.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Lolol!! He's sort of ugly cute.

There are some really grotesque ones I've seen (usually in the ad sections of dog magazines!!) but I'm having trouble finding the super drastic ones!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

You mean like this?
















You have the big body and the tiny head XD!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Ugh... I saw that thing and didn't want to post it because it looks so mutant.

Am I the only one seeing a rat in that first pic??

I was looking for some "bully" dogs so didn't want to use this since as far as I know (please) it's the only one of it's kind.


What is it??

GreyhoundxLabXPitbull on steroid??

That one could definitely give me nightmares...and I'm being serious.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Its a whippet with a dog form of HYPP. I kinda am glad she has a loving forever home (and will NEVER have puppies). But its what alot of halter horses are starting to look like. 
This is the dogs horse brother...









That cow has a long neck!









When i think halter horses i think these walking fence posts! Jokes aside i would have put the first one down.



















My mare may not have the best confo but at least she is built to last. These horses are built to... well they are built.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

KigerQueen said:


> You mean like this?


God! Look at the overbite on that poor fella too! I've seen the front-on one of that dog before, but thought it must have been photoshopped! Should have known better...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Ugh! Yes, also saw that pally-ish looking one, was going to post that till I found worse - the mare. Ugh, those poor chestnuts, look at their 'dainty' legs & feet & how over at the knee - obviously uncomfortable just standing, esp the first!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^I would put them down. It's not fair to breed ANY animal that is guaranteed to have a miserable life and not do things natural for that animal (in this case run!)

Re-whippet. Well I said greyhoundish lol. I in NO way would of guessed that was a purebred whippet. Nor did I know that there was a doggy HYPP. I've never seen any other dog quite so mutated... even the larger breeds.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Kyro said:


> There can't be so many horsepeople breeding for this absurdity, when most know it's so unhealthy and downright disgusting? Can there? I mean, it's common sense when you see a horse like this that you are repulsed by it. Even an average person would see this. How can people not see the fault in this?
> ...


You'd think so, wouldn't you, but there must be significant amounts of people who have no problem with this sort of thing. Just look at dog breeds: German Shepherds with hip dysplasia, sausage dogs prone to slipped discs and paralysis, bulldog types with noses so squashed they can't cool themselves properly and so heavyset they are very prone to joint problems, wrinkly-skinned dogs that are prone to skin infections in the creases, small lapdogs whose eyes look like they would pop out of the skulls if you tapped the heads.

Horse example: Arabian horses so artificially overdished they are prone to undershot jaws and breathing difficulties.

Anyone want to add to this list?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I've just seen Kiger Queen's posts and I want to make whoever thought that was a good idea crush rocks. :-(


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think with respect to animal breeding is was better when we needed to breed them to survive and serve a purpose other than leisure. If we had to breed (and those that do have to breed) animals for a purpose (rounding up cattle, working sheep, producing milk etc) than the animals tend to be healthier. Its when we start breeding for "fun" that things go sideways in my book.


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## ArdentPaladin (Jan 29, 2013)

My horse is half paint and half quarter. Her paint half was bred almost exclusively for halter and won many championships, but they looked nothing like this. They were muscular, sure, but the emphasis was also on perfect conformation and balance. Her quarter horse side was racing stock, and they were also very successful, and she turned out to be the best of both worlds. Tall, well built, amazing conformation, and as she's worked, her muscles develop really nicely.
I admit... I like muscles, but I couldn't imagine buying a horse that looked like any of these. I bought my horse because she had stellar conformation and moved great. It wasn't until I started her training and started getting her in shape her halter breeding started showing through. Even so, she's very well balanced and proportional. These horses... I couldn't imagine riding one. I would feel bad just making it follow me around on a lead rope.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

With their heads, Sue!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Well, you won't get much gravel that way, but I see what you mean!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I was actually VERY surprised that the chestnut in that video can move all well as he can. Granted it LOOKS very awkward but I'm just surprised he can do it.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

It is very sad, and there are many victims of man's "selective breeding for desired attributes" - it isn't isolated to just halter horses or even to just horses. By whom what attributes are desirable is of no matter - the poor thing isn't responsible.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

My mare (my avatar) is a Two Eyed Jack descendent. She is lovely and strong, nothing close to these horses. But she is from a halter horse line
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

But TEJ only _started _as a halter horse. After some of his get was sent to Billy Allen to train, they became popular performance horses. My Dad rode a lot of them for/with Billy Allen and he rode a lot of them on his own.

BUT, of course, all that happened when halter horses were still functional horses, 30-40 years ago.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Smrobs is right. Back in his day horses were expected to prove themselves in more than just one area of the show ring. Several of my horses have him in their bloodlines and I love that line. They are muscular (not anywhere close to the ones being pictured) but they can do about any job you set them to.


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## DanisMom (Jan 26, 2014)

I saw a QH stallion at Equine Affaire one year that looked like that. I couldn't believe someone would breed something that ugly. A friend of a friend was with us and she was looking for a stallion to breed her mare to. What do you think she picked? The ugly, over-muscled stallion of course. She didn't breed to him because she couldn't afford it. I feel sorry for the poor horses. I swore that stallion was on steroids.


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## DanisMom (Jan 26, 2014)

I saw a QH stallion at Equine Affaire one year that looked like that. I couldn't believe someone would breed something that ugly. A friend of a friend was with us and she was looking for a stallion to breed her mare to. What do you think she picked? The ugly, over-muscled stallion of course. She didn't breed to him because she couldn't afford it. I feel sorry for the poor horses. I swore that stallion was on steroids.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I admit I like the appearance of a well muscled dog or horse (or human). The key is the right amount of muscle. Too much looks just as unhealthy as too little. The key is fitness and to me these horses don't look "fit". In the sense that they don't look like they could perform a given task.


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## KickinUpDust (May 16, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> Ugh... I saw that thing and didn't want to post it because it looks so mutant.
> 
> Am I the only one seeing a rat in that first pic??
> 
> ...


It is a whippet or greyhound I believe. She suffers from a disorder that caused her to be double muscled. She was born that way. I seen a show with her mentioned in it on animal planet.

As for horses that look like that, yuck. I'll pass. They are not my cup of tea and I don't understand why people would desire those looks. I agree 100% hands down that a good well rounded, well conformed horse should place way over a horse looking like that. JMO.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

SueC said:


> You'd think so, wouldn't you, but there must be significant amounts of people who have no problem with this sort of thing. Just look at dog breeds: German Shepherds with hip dysplasia, sausage dogs prone to slipped discs and paralysis, bulldog types with noses so squashed they can't cool themselves properly and so heavyset they are very prone to joint problems, wrinkly-skinned dogs that are prone to skin infections in the creases, small lapdogs whose eyes look like they would pop out of the skulls if you tapped the heads.
> 
> Horse example: Arabian horses so artificially overdished they are prone to undershot jaws and breathing difficulties.
> 
> Anyone want to add to this list?


The vast majority of arabians do NOT have an extreme dish. None of mine do. 
Yet I see how the main ring halter horses are bred simply for an extreme dish without regard for anything else.
If a QH cannot run barrels, cut a cow, run a 1/4 mile then IMO they are not QH's.
If an arabian cannot be ridden 25 miles with very little conditioning then IMO they are not arabians.
Breeders are allowing two of the most versatile breeds to be judged by what is winning in halter classes. Shalom


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

dbarabians said:


> The vast majority of arabians do NOT have an extreme dish. None of mine do.


My girl didn't either, she came from endurance, working and racing stock, lots of Polish and Crabbet. But you should see some of the Arabian horses in Australia now, including some of the most popular sires. They have become poodles on a leash and many are overdished now, and have conformations unsuitable for serious riding. My hairdresser has a halter-style Arabian that was passed on to her; she tried to ride him and he kept breaking down if more was done with him than walk and jog a little. He also has lots of other health issues, and is now mainly a paddock ornament while she rides an Australian Stock Horse.

Endurance lines in Australia are being selected for performance, so that's where you find great stock that resembles their desert ancestors physically and performance wise, in this country. The divide in Arabian types between halter and endurance in Australia really became severe starting in the 1980s, when performance horses suddenly appeared to be discriminated against in the Arabian halter ring, in part because they didn't carry much spare fat, but mostly because their heads weren't dished enough for the judges' liking, and because table top back lines became all the rage.

My mare did very well in open-breed halter, and in endurance, and rider events, and novelties like saddle trotting races, barrel races, slalom. (I didn't bother taking her into all-Arabian classes after the early 1990s.) Her last show was when she was 27, I brought her out of retirement because she looked magnificent and I had a little time. I put her in one open halter and one open ridden class at our local agricultural show and she placed in both, more than a decade older than any of the other horses in the ring, and she was swanning around like a queen. The halter judge said, "I don't usually like Arabians, but your mare is so well built for riding and has such presence, and she has the most wonderful front end I've seen in a long time." And then I told her how old my girl was, and she could not believe it!  Later that day, she was giving pony rides to little children at the show - she was extremely gentle with tiny children, in contrast to the firecracker she could be when on a trail and wanting to move!

Working Arabians are a wonderful breed - I hope there will always be some people thumbing their noses at fashion ideas, and preserving their lines.


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## Roux (Aug 23, 2013)

I used to be involved in the dog world. And for a while there was a movement that I was supportive of that would have required a dog to earn a working title in addition to a conformation title to earn a championship. For example any breed could earn an obedience or agility title. Herding dogs could earn a title in herding, terriers could do earth dog, retrievers dock dog- eh you get the idea. That way the conformation is earned but also balanced by working ability but also the brain for the job!

There is too many difference sanctioning bodies in the horse world to make this a reality but I don't think its a bad idea. And it goes along the same lines as what you all were saying. 

I think that the most obvious example of what are you are talking about SueC, is paints and appys bred for color and not for much else, leaving us with some pretty crappy specimens in each. 
The other example I thought of was TBs being bread to be soo light and fine boned for speed that their legs can't handle the track and they just snap.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Now c'mon Roux, that just sounds too sensible for anyone in the show world to be interested in...


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

Well, remember, fashion brought us powdered wigs and bell bottoms, just as a start of a "stupid" list.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Yes FR, and shoulder pads, and inflatable bras, and women's shoes that deform the bones of the feet, and at one stage in clothing history, even accessories to draw attention to the male groin...


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## wakiya (Feb 7, 2009)

The first mare posted I sent a picture of to my friend years ago. At first she thought it was an ugly stallion, but then saw the foal. It's still a running joke, especially because she had such a feminine name. I just can't stand these super beefy looking horses. I am shocked when I see them getting such high praise. I'll stick to my versatile, sound and round barbs any day.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Foxtail Ranch said:


> Well, remember, fashion brought us powdered wigs and bell bottoms, just as a start of a "stupid" list.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah & op shops are useless for buying jeans these days, because they're chokkers full of hipsters! - you know, the ones that don't stay up & only look good if you're one of those weirdos who like undies hanging out the top!

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beer holder!


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## DanisMom (Jan 26, 2014)

smrobs said:


> Actually, in the grand scheme of things, it's not been that long ago that "normal" horses were winning halter classes.
> 
> This guy was a champion halter horse, and was well known on the circuit for being an unbeatable roping horse and that's been less than 30 years ago.


I remember those days. These are the horses that should be bred. They can actually perform. What use is a halter horse that looks what some consider pretty, but can't perform? Halter horses used to be judged with performance in mind. What happened to that?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

loosie said:


> Yeah & op shops are useless for buying jeans these days, because they're chokkers full of hipsters! - you know, the ones that don't stay up & only look good if you're one of those weirdos who like undies hanging out the top!


That's why I started trying the men's op shop section for my farm jeans - the odd men's cut fits better than those women's fashion cuts. They have the waist in the right place instead of falling down to reveal undergarments, and/or parts of your anatomy that the general public should not see, or sitting so high that it interferes with breathing and digestion.

Women's shoes are notoriously worse for human feet on average, than men's shoes. Why is that? I think it's in great part because women's shoes are more dictated by fashion, and fashion is about creating a different look that other people can imitate, and when too many people have imitated that look it becomes mainstream, and then you have to invent another kind of look to let you think you are better, more sophisticated, and more fashionable than the masses. Notice that functionality and practicality are one of the first things to go. On reflection this can be seen in clothing, in housing, and in the breeding of companion animals.

I visited a small working Arabian stud nearby today, and the proprietor and I had a chat about the kind of issues brought up in this thread. She says her horses, and the horses of a small minority of Arabian breeders in Western Australia, are winning most of the endurance competitions between them, and performing well in open ridden competitions of many flavours, but they will not win any ribbons at an Arabian breed class, and the general Arabian-buying population these days mostly care about halter show ribbons, not endurance riding or performance statistics. She says that since the 1980s, less and less people buying Arabians now are serious riders or knowledgeable about horses, and more are people who want an exotic status pet they can parade on a lead.

Maybe that's part of the explanation then: You start off with a working breed, say the Arabian horse in Western Australia up to the 1980s. The horses in general have good conformation and soundness because breeding was performance based. Now someone wants to come along and make a fashion statement: Their horses can't look like everyone else's. So by default they breed away from characteristics associated with performance and hardiness. The new type is visually distinctive, and becomes the in thing. Sort of like a lot of people are embarrassed to have an "outdated" style of mobile telephone, even if it functions just fine, or they won't wear a perfectly good pair of pants because it is too "yesterday" and trends have changed.

Philosopher Alain de Botton writes about this sort of thing, about human status anxiety and issues related to identity and tribalism. There is a lot of this silly behaviour about, especially when people aren't grounded in nature, farming, and other things that keep their feet on the planet. I think this is probably people living lives they think will make them popular or approved or looked up to by other people, rather than people trying to live out principles they've sat down and thought about.

But how to change it?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

All of this is why the Border Collie folks object to showing Border Collies. It takes a ton of effort to breed a good working dog, and fashion-show types want to ruin the breed by breeding for looks...with looks getting in the way of the dog's performance, not to mention no attempt to breed for herding ability.

A friend of my with a sheep ranch was sold on Border Collies when his son's nondescript looking dog went a half mile up and over a ridge, then came back along the ridge and reappeared on the far side of about a hundred sheep. She brought all the sheep down to the road. Since they had no facilities there, they drove along in a truck and she herded the sheep 5 miles to the camp. After watching her do that, he decided she was a beautiful dog worth more than 3 or 4 men on horses. But if you put her in a show, the judges would laugh at her...at least until she herded the judges up and drove them somewhere. Preferably off a cliff!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SueC said:


> Women's shoes are notoriously worse for human feet on average, than men's shoes.


I have my Blunnies, runners & Ariat(low heel) Western boots.... but I'm barefoot most of the time. Oh & a pair of 'nice' shoes to wear out, which I devoted a day at the shopping complex & as much money(within reason) that it took to find a good pair... after hours of frustration in & out of 'nice' shops that I was prepared to part with substantial funds if only I could find something nice AND comfortable.... ended up finding them for $30 bucks in the discount shoe shop on the way home!:lol:



> Why is that? I think it's in great part because women's shoes are more dictated by fashion,


I create my own fashion!:lol: Function & practicality are usual 'ingredients'. I've never 'got' mainstream fashion.... well, usually a few years later some things grow on me, then I can buy them cheap in op shops!:wink: Perhaps that explains why I see absolutely nothing beautiful in these newer 'trends' of animal breeding either - that & appreciating the very basics of functional anatomy!



> But how to change it?


That's the hard one. Slap 'em around a bit??:twisted:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

& aren't 'working horse/dog' shows so much more fun to watch anyway?? Animals are also a lot better trained than the sillies in halter class & doggie fashion shows too...

Upon looking up overly dished arab faces, there's another horror - aside from the quite obvious anatomical problems many of these horses must have, it is just ugly! I love the beautiful arabian features, but yet again, they've taken something beautiful & distorted it to a monstrosity!

& then I've just been 'reintroduced' to those poor, tortured 'Big Lick' TWH's. Anyone wants to see more of what that's about, check out the Facebook page 'Honors Dishonored'(don't do it right after a big meal!). Talk about some sick psychopathic horse haters! I didn't think they were allowed to do that any more & I'm dumbstruck that a supposedly 'civilised' country can allow this blatant, severe torture!!!!:evil: Americans should be VERY ashamed of themselves allowing that sickness! I don't understand why it isn't a criminal offense, when you guys supposedly have animal cruelty laws?? Do they stand for nothing, or what?? 

At very least, these sadists should be redirected into a more humane sport, like cockfighting for eg!


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

Just to add to the Arabian conversation
This is my example of a good working Arabian. He was tough, and strong and fearless. 
He was given to me when he was 18and I rode him until he was retired at 23. Before he came to me he was an endurance horse running in races all over the country
Then he was used as a low level jumper, then I got him and ran gymkhanas with him. 
Now at the ripe old age of 27 he's my little sisters trusted mount.
This is the type of Arabian I like to see. 
























Those three pictures are around 3-5 years old. 
This next one was on his 27th birthday, last year. 









Sorry, just had to brag.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

this is why there are slaughterhouses. Those poor animals. Just as ugly as those super dish faced arabs, lots of the breeders are going for that in this area, and I have not seen those 
steroid QH in this area. They are breeding for the little boned short cutting horses which i think is also Wrong..


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Here's a random photo of an over-dished Arabian from a Google search. I don't know why that's considered attractive by anybody. A normally dished Arabian face is pretty - this looks seriously deformed. Thank goodness the Polish lines never included horses like that. (Also they raced their Arabians.)


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

...and now an example of a fashionable tabletop backline:










It does nothing for me, and I seriously doubt that kind of back would stand up to riding like a normal horse's back...

Also, what's with the stargazing? Is that pose supposed to be attractive as well? Do you guys think standing a horse unnaturally like that is attractive?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Some good old-fashioned working Arabians that don't look deformed:


Raseem









Skowronek


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Riffal


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Shahzada


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Abiram (famous ground-covering trot of a good Arabian)









...just for some diverse examples...


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## liltuktuk (Dec 16, 2011)

loosie said:


> & then I've just been 'reintroduced' to those poor, tortured 'Big Lick' TWH's. Anyone wants to see more of what that's about, check out the Facebook page 'Honors Dishonored'(don't do it right after a big meal!). Talk about some sick psychopathic horse haters! I didn't think they were allowed to do that any more & I'm dumbstruck that a supposedly 'civilised' country can allow this blatant, severe torture!!!!:evil: Americans should be VERY ashamed of themselves allowing that sickness! I don't understand why it isn't a criminal offense, when you guys supposedly have animal cruelty laws?? Do they stand for nothing, or what??
> 
> At very least, these sadists should be redirected into a more humane sport, like cockfighting for eg!


Oh Loosie how I wish the 'Big Lick' was illegal. Many of the "methods" used to exaggerate the TWH gate are illegal, like soring, but enforcement of these rules seems minimal. But the padding and horrible shoeing jobs and the long toes aren't. I think they have limits on how much padding you can use and how it's attached, but in my eyes any padding is too much. They're turning perfectly good horses with wonderful gaits into a disgusting, weird, leg flailing, monstrosities. Unfortunately there's big money in the the "Big Lick" industry and for some reason money always seems to win over the health and quality of life of the animals.

On youtube there's a video of a normally shod TWH that was allowed to enter in the TWH Celebration event against all the padded TWH. The difference between a TWH that moved normally versus the "Big Lick" horses makes you want to cry. And the sad part was, the crowd was booing the normal shod horse! Yet that was the horse that performed the whole event with a happy expression and without having to stop and catch his breath between gaits. And he looked like a horse that could perform one day and then go hack out on a trail all day the next. The other horses......they looked like they could barely stand.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

One of the few times my oldest daughter ever rode Mia:










She comes by her big noggin (Mia, not my oldest daughter) honestly...her sire Gazarr:










and grandsire Gazon:










An old magazine cover, which does NOT look like the covers of what the Arabian Horse Association used to send me:










I got tired of the AHA sending me magazines showing seahorses on the cover...


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## Luvs Horses (Jan 9, 2014)

LOL, The over dish does make them look like sea horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Not just the dish, but the downward pointing nose. Like my neighbor who's big on showing, and trains her horses with a strap between bridle & chest band (sorry, but I don't know the technical terms) to force them to keep their nose pointed straight down.

I think you get this sort of thing anywhere there's competition, and people do things more for the ego gratification of winning than the pleasure of doing.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

bsms said:


> ...But if you put her in a show, the judges would laugh at her...at least until she herded the judges up and drove them somewhere. Preferably off a cliff!


:rofl:

This reminds me of a true story from back in the 1980s... There was this very old lady still riding horses in dressage competitions in Australia. She was well into her 80s, and starting to significantly lose her eyesight and had been told she would gradually go blind. A horse writer asked her, "What will you do when you are blind? Will you still ride?" And the old lady dryly said, "When I am completely blind, I can be a judge."


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I'll be honest, I'm not an Arab girl. I've always loved my stock horses, but those that you posted Sue look the type to go win an endurance race...then I could throw my roping saddle on them and spend a week working cattle and roping off of them. I dislike "dainty" horses as much as I dislike "bulky" horses LOL. IMHO, if they can't stand up to a hard day's work, regardless of discipline, then they aren't worth having and _especially _aren't worth breeding.

As for what bsms mentioned earlier regarding Border Collies, yep. I hate those show bred critters that couldn't work a cow if their life depended on it. Mine may not be "pretty" (though most of them are...all but Radar, who looks a bit like a scroungy coyote :wink, but they can handle a large herd of rank cattle like they were taking a Sunday drive.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I love watching Border Collies work. Around 1980, a friend had an Australian Shepherd that was fun to watch working cattle. Unhappily, the AKC and 'dog sports' folks have largely ruined the breed. I talked a few years ago to a guy who still breeds Aussies for stock work...he said all his dogs had to go to ranches because there were so few good working Australian Shepherds left.

My Border Collie has no stock to work, so he has to content himself with following me from room to room, just in case some wild sheep jump out of a closet and I need him. Some say it is mean not to have any stock for him to work, but the 2 Border Collies I've owned seem pretty happy to stick close to their people and be ready...always ready.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

LOL, it's not so important that they have actual working stock jobs, just so long as they are kept busy enough to keep their sanity. All those "border collies are nothing but lunatics" stereotypes come from people who live in apartments and other urban areas and crate the dog for half the day and just expect it to laze around the house for the rest of the time. An understimulated dog is a destructive dog.

I generally take mine out with me when I go on a trail ride. Thankfully, I live in an area where I can let them run loose and they are trained well so calling them back to me isn't a problem. Letting them run out in the open range for a few hours certainly helps LOL. During the summer when we have cattle, it's not uncommon for them to cover 40-50 miles in a day, probably half of that at a dead run. Still, the next day they are raring to go and have a conniption if I don't take them again.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

smrobs said:


> All those "border collies are nothing but lunatics" stereotypes come from people who live in apartments and other urban areas and crate the dog for half the day and just expect it to laze around the house for the rest of the time. An understimulated dog is a destructive dog.


Well, that depends on the dog. Mine's actually a Bossy Collie (BC and Aussie mix). She was bred to be a ranch dog, but had no interest in herding, and has turned laziness into an art form. She'll chase tennis balls (but only green tennis balls - nothing else) but won't bring them back - so when we're hiking, she runs to where the ball will land, catches it, then lays down and waits for me to catch up. Mountain biking? On single tracks, she gets ahead, then slows to force me down to her easy trot. And chasing the other dog? (Who's either a mutt or a Plott hound, and loves to run.) She gets him zooming around the yard, then WALKS a few feet to where she knows he'll run by so she can nab him


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My bf has a "TB" (i have never met a tb who can do a running walk) gelding who is 27 years old. No papers or tattoo but he "looks" like a tb. This gelding can do everything. The people who host a round up MADE my bf ride with them because his horse was quick, and knew what he was doing. He always wins at keyhole, always places in barrels. This horse will run up any mountain you point him at and he even knows some dressage 0.o. If a horse can't be worked (and stay sound) why breed for something like said animal? Rocket is 27 and can STILL go all day, keep up with a 6 year old OTTB and run up mountains. 




























I have a little arab (no papers). She is an amazing trail horse (when she is not being a allergy fueled nut). She loves cows, she will jump over anything i point her at (i dont jump in the arena but jumping ditches is fun!). she could be the horse from "the man from snowy river" when we are on the trails. And she has the almost dainty arabian look, and yet is not. her face is more dished than i normally like but she is not a sea horse.




















I will say her lope sucks though XD!











Moral of the story is alot of grade horses can last longer because they have escaped the "fad" breeders. If they can stop breeding pasture puffs then the breeds will be safe from self destructing. Thats what I see happening now. Self destructing. I hate to see so much breed diversity. The point is that the ONE breed can do all said things. Not breed several sub breeds for specific events. Quarter horses used to be one "type" now you have roping horses, cutters/reiners, halter horses, western pleasure/english pleasure, the list goes on. You won't get a roping horse doing western pleasure, then compete in a cutting and reining event the same day. You won't see a halter horse outside of the halter/WP arena. Same with arabs too. *steps of soap box*


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Because there's so much talk about sheepdogs, I wanted to post this:











This is Jess, who is essentially an Australian Kelpie with enough Border Collie in the mix to give her a pretty paint job and one ear that folds over.  Her build and shape are 100% typical of the working Australian Kelpie.

This is a dog who goes all day, and is very quick on the uptake. It is the fastest dog I've ever had - she easily keeps up with my horse at a flat-tack gallop, and with the neighbour's four-wheeler doing 55km/h. This is also a dog who prefers me to throw the dog kibbles into the air for her to catch, or roll them across the floor for her to chase, to eating them out of her bowl. 

I love all sorts of dogs - all sorts of animals full stop - but there is no comparison between a dog like this and one bred for appearance, in its physical capabilities. This dog leaves me gobsmacked. Not just her speed and endurance, and constant interest in the world around her, and her huge interest in teamwork - also things like, when she retrieves something from the farm dam, she swims so fast she leaves a huge wake behind her, like a small speedboat - not like a 22kg titch of a dog. 

She herds animals every chance she gets, and closely supervises all horse and donkey feeding and handling operations. When I get the saddle out she bounces and barks with anticipation. She spends hours playing with soccer balls, tennis balls, squeaky toys. At the seaside she chases waves up and down the beach, flat tack. We have several films of this, I must dig one up! Here is her stalking stance waiting for a wave to come in:










This is a rescue dog from a place that specialises in farm dog breeds, since the RSPCA services are starting to decline dogs like this - primarily because dogs like this need many hours of exercise and stimulation each day to be happy, and the average suburban household does not provide it. A few years ago, a film was made of the Louis de Bernières bio of Australia's famed "Red Dog" - and after that, demand for Kelpies skyrocketed. Soon after than, Kelpies were getting dumped, as many owners decided they didn't want to bother with such an energetic, demanding creature after all; according to Jess' rescue carer, over one hundred Kelpies are currently getting dumped every week Australia-wide.

We've had Jess for nearly a year, and she's coming up to two years old. I love this dog and am in awe of what she can do, in the same way that I am in awe of good working horses and their fabulous capabilities.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Where I live, the speed, agility and intelligence of the Border Collies and Australian Shepherds made them popular for 'dog sports' and 'agility'. I wouldn't mind that if the dog agility people bought their dogs from reputable breeders, but instead they breed their own with no thought for herding ability. They also seem to lose the 'stop switch' when bred like that, so the dog can't just relax - unlike Jack, whose nickname is "Jack the Slipper" because he likes to rest on our feet.

The dog show people are far worse, breeding for looks that have nothing to do with function, and with no regard for intelligence. If the AKC required a herding dog to win in an open sheep trial BEFORE setting foot in the show ring, maybe it would be so bad. But people being people, they would rig fake sheep trials so they could pretend their lumbering lump of dog could herd.

As for horses, this is Trooper - an accidental breeding of an Appaloosa stallion and a purebred Arabian. This was a few months after we got him, and the spurring he received on a ranch in Colorado had yet to heal. Still, I prefer Trooper's build to many champion halter horses. He's fast and agile. His head is too dainty for my tastes, but at least he has something IN it...unlike a mare I know...








​


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I just saw a yearling this week who has a grey Arabian mother and an Appaloosa father. And it's a Palomino! Now that surprised me.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

All my arabians have good hips and are well muscled.
The arabian halter horses are posed like that to show off their necks and straight croups. Most are not that straight its just the way they place those hind legs.
smrobs if you make to North texas I will show you arabians that are used for cattle work.
2 years ago during the drought a neighbor needed to cull a lot of cattle due to lack of grass and move the rest. 
It was over 100* that day by noon and I helped on a 14.1 hand 18 year old arabian mare. The QHs riders laughed at me but by noon they were singing the praises of my mare . Who by the way started and finished the roundup with just a couple of breaks .
The gentleman has told me for years he would never have an arabian on his place. Attia proved herself to him and now he brags about those "little" horses. Shalom


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

dbarabians you should post some pictures of your arabians!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

dbarabians said:


> The arabian halter horses are posed like that to show off their necks and straight croups.


That's what they say, but honestly DBA, do you actually _*like*_ looking at a horse in that kind of pose? 

I can see the necks just fine on the naturally positioned historical horses I posted, for instance, and I can say, "What a nice horse!" Breeds like Lusitanos and Andalusians also have lovely necks, but aren't stood artificially like that in their breed shows. I kind of think it really contributes to the prejudice against Arabians - that they are often photographed in those freaky poses. It makes them look a bit mental - or should that be the handlers?

Also it sets that breed apart, and not in a nice way, from other horse breeds and how they are shown, and that to me screams "fashion fad" and all its implications.

I also think that the whole baby oil all over the face, and halters like something out of a girly Barbie doll set, and getting them pop-eyed by jumping up and down behind the camera doesn't do anyone any favours. It's a horse, not a fashion accessory or a plastic plaything... to me, that kind of stuff strips away dignity, like dogs in prams dressed in doggy outfits wearing little booties. I love a horse just because it's a horse.

People shouldn't have to be surprised that your 14.1hh teenage Arabian mare can _*work*_... nobody is surprised that a Clydesdale can pull a plough... I think it's an image thing.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Well, you try telling my Arab not to like showing off 

Do agree with you though! lol


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I was also surprised to see on the 'big lick' page that they tie up the horse's tail, so they have that sort of 'spitz dog' type tail carriage! But shouldn't have been surprised, as I'd already heard that people in the arab show scene cut tendons under tails &/or put hot sauce or such under the tail to force that 'araby' tail carriage, as well as pin ears, cut the corners of the eyelids(to make eyes look bigger)...


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Yogiwick said:


> Well, you try telling my Arab not to like showing off
> 
> Do agree with you though! lol


Yeah, they do love to show off. My mare was always swanning around with a floating trot and arched neck when she thought people were looking at her during an outing. But I didn't train her to do it, and she also never, ever decided she suddenly wanted to observe the Andromeda galaxy at great length when at a halt.  In nature, that kind of stance would lower a horse's life expectancy because it reduces their ability to spot predators, or keep an eye on their footing. It would be selected against pretty quickly in horses who took it up as a hobby.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

loosie said:


> I was also surprised to see on the 'big lick' page that they tie up the horse's tail, so they have that sort of 'spitz dog' type tail carriage! But shouldn't have been surprised, as I'd already heard that people in the arab show scene cut tendons under tails &/or put hot sauce or such under the tail to force that 'araby' tail carriage, as well as pin ears, cut the corners of the eyelids(to make eyes look bigger)...


Gross. :shock:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Loosie, wouldn't it just be poetic justice to cut a few of _*their*_ tendons, make some incisions in _*their*_ eyelids, and put some hot sauce on _*their*_ privates? If I caught a leprechaun, that would take up one of my wishes for sure: That all those things done to animals in the name of vanity should automatically be visited on those who inflicted it. I think it would stop those practices pretty quickly.

And it would be pretty funny to see some bloke who had done this to an animal being paraded around with some girly bling on him and with his head tilted to the sky and baby oil all over his face, especially if he had hot sauce on his privates at the same time.:twisted:


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

About tail cutting how would you know? Would there be a scare? My mare CANNOT clench her tail and i always thought it was because of her odd tail set but the more i think the more i wonder.
This is as low and relaxed as her tail can get. 
Pic:









My Arab is a camrea hog. She plots around lazily when I free lunge her but if i have a camera... Well I (well my friend with these pics) get awesome pics like this:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

It's hard to tell by looking at the skin, horses heal so well...


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Both a blessing and a curse on that one. I cant even find reference pics of cut tails.


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## Foxtail Ranch (Mar 10, 2012)

SueC, I had a labrador retriever from field champion lines long ago. He was huge! He could swim miles all day and, if I wasn't careful, he would jump in the tub with the kids. He could also retrieve a small rock from the bottom of a swift river. The same rock. Every time. He must have been able to smell under water. He was amazing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

SueC said:


> Yeah, they do love to show off. My mare was always swanning around with a floating trot and arched neck when she thought people were looking at her during an outing. But I didn't train her to do it, and she also never, ever decided she suddenly wanted to observe the Andromeda galaxy at great length when at a halt.  In nature, that kind of stance would lower a horse's life expectancy because it reduces their ability to spot predators, or keep an eye on their footing. It would be selected against pretty quickly in horses who took it up as a hobby.


If I think of it I will post a picture of my boy. He's very normal looking lol, but I have one picture where I'm like "uhhh..." because he's all posed and looks like a different horse (also likes showing off for the camera! lol)

Definitely doesn't walk around like that all day!


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## skipsangelheir (Feb 9, 2013)

Didnt read the whole thread, but if you have an hour watch pedigree dogs exposed on youtube. Be ready to want to punch people, cry and vomit all at the same time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I have a face book page with some pictures of my horses under dbarabians if anyone wants to see a few.
Sue C one of the reasons I don t show main ring halter is I dont like the way they are set up. But I do have to admit arabian halter classes are not boring and I cant say that about other breeds.
There are also pictures in the thread in the Stallions and mare sections about my stallion Sam An own son of Samtry. Shalom


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SueC said:


> Loosie, wouldn't it just be poetic justice to cut a few of _*their*_ tendons, make some incisions in _*their*_ eyelids, and put some hot sauce on _*their*_ privates? ...being paraded around with some girly bling on him and with his head tilted to the sky and baby oil all over his face, especially if he had hot sauce on his privates at the same time.:twisted:


Don't know about poetic, but bloody oath mate!!:evil: Lemme get my hands onto one of those TWH torturers... or one of the knobs in government that legislated to allow it! What you describe above would look soft...:evil::evil:


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## liltuktuk (Dec 16, 2011)

This is Amira, purebred, registered, wouldn't win in a halter class to save her life. Not that I'd ever enter her into one anyway, I'd be bored to tears.

I've had people tell me that she couldn't be purebred because her face isn't dishy enough. :shock: Those same people also didn't like her big round butt (she lives with a bunch of quarter horses....she's just trying to fit in :lol.

But let me tell you what this mare can do. Trot all day, take a nap, and do it again the next day, and the next, and the next. I'd fall out of the saddle dead before she'd stop.

And while she's not the most lovey dovey of horses (she's got mare-ittude), she knows when I'm upset or stressed. And she'll walk up and put her head in my arms and tell me that it'll all be okay. She might not want to live in my "tent" with me, but she'd at least stay right by outside.

And isn't that what they were bred to do?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Anyone who believes that mare is not an arabian is blind. 
She has very good arabian type and endurance it seems. Shalom


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

This is my purebred, DNA tested arab mare. I have been asked multiple times if I'm SURE she's arab, because she has no dish to speak of. I have worked with several arabs, including two very, very well bred halter arabs. After the halter arabs I swore off the breed. I wanted no part of the spooky, unpredictable, bubble headed, dish faced idiots the breed has become. Then I met pretzl, and my opinion changed. She is forward, fearless, loyal, intelligent, incredibly sound and above all, sane. I can pony a weanling, double with a toddler, canter out to pasture bareback with a string on her neck, compete in an endurance race or go out for a pleasure ride on the trail. She picked up neck reining in two sessions, and I can comfortably do an endurance ride with her wearing just a side pull. She has saved my butt more than once on the trail by seeing dangerous things before I did. She is the epitome of what an arab should be, and I doubt she would even place at a show.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Lady Anne Blunt with her favorite Arabian mare, Kasida". 

Notice the dish? Neither do I...










"Mesaoud, one of the foundation sires of the Crabbet Arabian Stud, bred in Egypt by Ali Pasha Sherif, imported to England by the Blunts in 1891". 

Notice the dish? Neither do I...










"In England, Mesaoud was used both as a riding horse and as a sire, with over 100 known purebred Arabian offspring recorded. He was also shown in 1896, 1897, and 1898 at the Crystal Palace Horse Show, taking first place each time."

I don't think he could compete, now...:evil:


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

BlueSpark said:


> I have been asked multiple times if I'm SURE she's arab, because she has no dish to speak of. I have worked with several arabs, including two very, very well bred halter arabs. After the halter arabs I swore off the breed. I wanted no part of the spooky, unpredictable, bubble headed, dish faced idiots the breed has become.


That attitude, and results like those, are why I'm really not a fan of purebred dogs & horses - or humans, FTM 



> Lady Anne Blunt with her favorite Arabian mare...


Veering off topic for a bit: can you imagine trying to ride in those clothes?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Here's my guy. This is what he does when he sees a camera (also doesn't get ridden much these days so is very happy lol) (click to biggify)

I don't have any good "type" pictures of him. He IS very typey. He's Polish/Crabbet and has good bloodlines (Idk what but my breeder/trainer approved lol!) He has plenty of type while still be sturdy with good bone. He's plenty stocky and strong for his size (isn't that supposed to be a breed trait?) He IS a show off and acts like an Arab. Even in his "posed" pic (I didn't ask him to do that lol) you can see how much different from a halter horse he is while still having type/dish.

My trainer picked him out as a project for me. I was 17 he was 13 yet had NO under saddle training. He is hot, he is SANE and he wants to please. Best horse ever  I started him with my trainers help and can do anything with him. She got him w/t start canter in the indoor, I'll go trail rides, jump, you name it. I trust him more than my dead broke horses because they'd have no hesitation to dump me to save their skins, this guy has been in SCARY situations and has done exactly what I asked him to because I asked him to. That's better than dead broke any day. He will go all day and still have energy to go more, and if he IS tired he won't stop unless I make him.

That's what they were bred for. I remember talking to someone who used to start babies at an Arabian barn and she said after awhile she refused to get on the Egyptians (halter) because she valued her life... Wow. That is SO NOT what the breed was meant to be. My boy is absolutely perfect for my non horsey father, walks on eggshells around small children. Loves the other animals, the cats jump out of the rafters onto his back and knead him and he stands there patiently (looking pained lol) the dog will lay down underneath him if I don't pay attention, etc. It's not just the physical stuff they are ruining with "halter" horses.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks guys, for all the pretty pics - oh-la-la to all the gorgeous REAL arabs!


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## LadyChevalier (Apr 19, 2013)

I had boarded a rescue pony, he is a hackney pony and supposedly a show history as a cart pony. He has LMN, lower motor neuron disorder- as in his hind end does not work properly. He always had this weird kink in his tail but i figured it was just another issue along a long list of the symptoms he had... But when he was finally diagnosed with LMN, the vet palpated his tail and told me that no, the tail was actually broken, twice... and healed in this awkward fashion. Apparently people think its prettier to break a horse's tail so it doesnt lay naturally but lifts a bit higher for a showier look... 

People will do anything for prestige, for money, and to win. And animals and people too suffer for it. Its irresponsible and down right inhumane. And the show world to me is rather corrupt. Not everywhere, but why else would judges want to place a diaper butt steroid tank on posts that can barely walk over a balanced well conformed performance horse? Or why do the big TWH shows encourage the big lick when we know that in order for the horse to perform the big lick some sort of soring has to be done? 

To me the most beautiful horse is an all natural horse, a horse that can live out a long and healthy life and loves to be alive, a horse that can do its job and be of use, and one not broken or mutated into something resembling a horse because a humans idea of perfection.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

This thread is making me feel much less of a 'pariah' for my disdain of the show/competition scene...


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

this is why my bf will only do speed events. Breeding/breed, color, confo and looks over all dont mater. There is no judge staring down at you, its simple rules, you and the horse and the time clock. I can completely agree with that.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

My old trainer who shows big time with Arabians shows under sport horse, even for in hand stuff, she has no desire to get involved with the "other" stuff and let me tell you her horses are NICE.

Less and less people are interested in that but as long as a few are it will continue.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

KigerQueen said:


> this is why my bf will only do speed events. Breeding/breed, color, confo and looks over all dont mater. There is no judge staring down at you, its simple rules, you and the horse and the time clock. I can completely agree with that.


But you still have health & soundness issues, just different ones, of which so many people are far more concerned about winning than the welfare of their horse. *Not saying your bf is one of those or it can't be done well, just the whole show/competition scene is geared towards winning, with little concern about what that may mean for the horse.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

loosie said:


> just the whole show/competition scene is geared towards winning, with little concern about what that may mean for the horse.


This is where a good trainer can make all the difference in the WORLD. I learned to show and to be thrilled with even a little progress and to enjoy the journey and the process, not just chase .20 ribbons. I still work it that way today. We go and we work and we work and I'm tickled with every little thing that goes right instead of wrong, especially if it went wrong the last time. In time the ribbons and recognition will come if the talent and teamwork are there. It doesn't HAVE to be all about winning.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

true, but a good fast and coordinated horse cannot have too many issues. There will always be issues with anything involving money, but at least the horses have to be built to DO something. Id do speed events but one to many bolts on my mare has turned me off to going fast...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

KigerQueen said:


> true, but a good fast and coordinated horse cannot have too many issues. ...but at least the horses have to be built to DO something.


Well... maybe not too many issues, while he's still good fast and coordinated:-| Of course it depends on how much, how hard, etc, but while strong bred is obviously better, no horse is bred hardy enough to withstand major & sustained racing, barrel racing, etc... particularly when they're also doing it often way before maturity.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

My girl. Lived to age 32. Working Arabian, mostly Crabbet/Polish, did dressage, endurance, gymkhanas (loved bending races and that kind of thing), saddle trotting races, could pull a cart, and did thousands of miles of trails just for fun. 27 in this photo. This was my favourite horse ever and if I could, I'd have her all over again. It is my great regret that we usually outlive our horses.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SueC said:


> It is my great regret that we usually outlive our horses.


100% agree with THIS!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My bf lives next to a barrel racing trainer. To graduate from her riding school she had to do a advanced dressage pattern, and a show jumping course bareback. She in her 70 and has been teaching barrel racing for years. She has an 16 year old mare that she has been using most of the horses life and she not only wins, but is healthy. She teaches the horses she trains some dressage to get them to listen and bend better. Seams to work. 

If the horse is conditioned right and worked right the horse should be fine. But that being said people want to make money. I dont think the big time barrel racers would work their horses until they are lame, they spend too much money on them. 

Of all shows in the show circuit i like is cutting. Yes the horse could still hurt himself but at lease he is not having his face yanked on or being spurred to death.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^And a good cow horse seems to enjoy his 'work' as much as a working sheep dog!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

SueC said:


> My girl. Lived to age 32. Working Arabian, mostly Crabbet/Polish, did dressage, endurance, gymkhanas (loved bending races and that kind of thing), saddle trotting races, could pull a cart, and did thousands of miles of trails just for fun. 27 in this photo. This was my favourite horse ever and if I could, I'd have her all over again. It is my great regret that we usually outlive our horses.


SueC a great horse is unforgettable and at least the memories will last until our last breath.
Sorry that I have neglected to reply to your PM. I intended to then started something else and forgot to reply. Now I have an image of your mare.

To the poster that replied out some of the older arabs not having a dish. 
There is nothing wrong with a nice dish or even a prominent one. Arabs come in 5 different strains some have straight profiles and are stocky others are more refined. I like them all. Shalom


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

So folks, how are we going to fix all this? Legislation? (Good luck.) Education? I'd like to think that helps, except doctors have a higher than average rate of smoking, at least in our country. I bet many of the people who practice some of the unsavoury stuff discussed in this thread would tell you they really love their horses - which shows just how incongruous and/or rationalising the human race can be...

It's been about 35 years since my enlightened Year 1-2 teacher got me, and other classmates, hooked on a little animal/plant magazine explaining biological and ecological facts about various domestic and wild animals, and educating the young readership about the existence and problems of factory farming and dubious animal management practices, plus threats to wild animal populations. It helped me understand and act, but other than animals in my own sphere of influence, I don't know if I've been able to do all that much. Unless good role modelling helps any for this stuff.

Thoughts?


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## liltuktuk (Dec 16, 2011)

Somehow we need to convince people that quarter horses on steroids with posts for legs; Arabians with crazy dishes, table top backs, and tooth pick legs; TWH performing an artificially induced gait; etc. is not good for the horses and shouldn't be the ideal.

How? I have no idea really. How do you convince people to stop breeding something that's been making them money for the past 20+ years?

We now have sport horse halter vs. normal halter. Sport horse for the horses that are actually useful, regular halter where all they're really good for is halter. Is that the beginning of regular halter classes being pushed out? I hope so. To me it almost seems like we've done a 360. The sport horse halter classes are like what normal halter classes used to be like.

Another example I witnessed this weekend was western pleasure vs. ranch horse pleasure. From my understanding western pleasure is supposed to showcase a stock horse that is a 'pleasure' to ride while easily controllable and responsive. Ranch pleasure is to showcase a stock horse that is also a 'pleasure' to ride while also easily controlled and responsive. The only difference seems to be that in the ranch horse pleasure the horses are actually allowed to move out. And from what I could tell the western pleasure horses looked less than pleasurable to ride. They were moving so slow I'm not sure they were even getting anywhere. The "lope" they did was painful to watch. The horses looked miserable.

The horses entered in the ranch horse pleasure actually looked to be enjoying themselves. They were allowed to move out as well as collect. They moved at what I would consider a normal pace at all gaits and still looked like a responsive, pleasure to ride. And again, from reading on this forum and other websites, ranch horse pleasure sounds like what western pleasure used to be. 

So is this the beginning of change? If enough of us gripe about the classes and how the judging affects the health and well being of the horse will those classes go away? Or will they just make a new class that fits our ideals so we shut up?

And this is why I don't show. Why would I spend money and time trying to enter my mare in an Arabian western pleasure class that she would never place in because she doesn't fit the ideal of the exaggerated slow gait with the incredibly arched neck and behind the vertical face? That doesn't seem to me to the be the ideal of an Arabian horse that is a pleasure to ride. To me the ideal Arabian that is a pleasure to ride has beautiful extended gaits that can carry you across miles with minimal effort. Even my mare's jog (which I am able to sit) is wonderfully smooth and faster than a lot of other horses regular trot. But it wouldn't win in a pleasure class! I'll stick to trail riding/endurance. That's what they were bred for anyway.



Sorry for the long rambling post, hopefully it all makes some sense.
*steps off soap box*


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

This is one reason why I stopped going to horse shows years ago... the freakish trends and the terrible things they are doing to so many breeds. Although I am hopeful that the Arabian Sport Horse classes/shows will save the Arabian breed here in the United States.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

Blame the Quarter horse judges! As long as this disgusting "look" still wins, people will breed for it. Shameful!
AQHA promotes this and the grotesque, un-natural gaits of Western Pleasure. Despite re-writing their rule book, I still see no improvement in their sanctioned judges.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Chasin Ponies said:


> Blame the Quarter horse judges! As long as this disgusting "look" still wins, people will breed for it. Shameful!


I don't think you can put all the blame on the judges. After all, if people didn't enter their horses in beauty contests, and buy expensive horses bred from beauty contest winners, the judges wouldn't have any effect.


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> Both a blessing and a curse on that one. I cant even find reference pics of cut tails.


You will often see a botched tail cut in the QH world. Since they want flat tails that don't move at all in western pleasure, many have the tail nerve cut so that they can't even swish flies.

I have see several botched jobs where the tail is cocked off to the side permanently. It makes me sick to see what people will do just to win a fake satin ribbon!:-(


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Great point, James: Just like consumers also need to take their share of responsibility for industrial pollution, not just point their fingers at others. After all, if we didn't buy the products, the industry would not exist.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree not to put all the blame on the judges, but if showing/breeding orgs - both in horse & dog & cat shows - started requiring health & soundness of breed along with the 'beauty'(which after all, is only in the eye of the beerholder ;-) ) and refusing to give prizes to the dysfunctional, then the focus wouldn't be on breeding these animals. No, I don't think they're to _blame_, especially, but I do believe they should have a _responsibility_.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

People will stop breeding messed up creatures when said creatures stop winning in the show ring. They're really not bred for anything else in the first place so remove that and people will breed other things. I think they're totally to blame when those stupid ribbons are what people are chasing and the judges keep handing out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

I personally think there is something really wrong with people valuing _ribbons_ over and above a healthy, well-conformed, naturally magnificent work horse. So I think people's heads need examining on a pretty large scale here. Breed association heads, breeder heads, owner heads, judges' heads. A little electric shock therapy may be indicated to rearrange improperly connected neurons.


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## JustWingIt (Jul 29, 2012)

I agree with everything said here. It is appalling what lengths people will go to in order to "win". We have this massive problem in the horse industry, and I also believe that instead of rewarding all these grotesquely bred/trained horse's owners they should be punished. One thing to keep in mind is that these trainers/breeders aren't just hunting for the actual ribbon. 

Ribbon=reputation=more clients=$$$

It always boils down to the money. If those who caused, and continue to breed for, these horrific traits stopped earning money for what they produce, the whole thing would fall apart. Of course, thats never going to happen, so the best I can hope for is that in a few years this fad will go out of style just like it came in style. Hopefully functional horses will come in style but who knows. To me its incredibly sad that we as humans have way overstepped our boundaries and our breeding has got to the point where it is harmful. 

This is partially why I spend my time with my gelding in the more "performance" oriented sport of eventing. Of course, eventing has its own demons, just like anything, but there seems to be much more emphasis on ANY horse being able to compete especially at the lower levels. I mean, how many 'diamond in the rough' stories do you hear about down-on-their-luck horses who manage to make it to the upper levels of eventing? So many! Thats part of why I love this sport. My own gelding is a mutt who I bought more out of pity than anything and he has turned out to be an eventing super star, and more importantly we both have fun doing it. The horses who are bred specifically for the upper levels are bred for functionality, and, while there are specific traits that are bred for in order to make a 'good' event horse, the variety of the horses is vast. Looking at some information on horses competing at Rolex this weekend, I see that 11 different breeds of horses are represented this year. 

I think the main trouble in the industry is the groups that focus on specific breeds/colors, because its there that the fads start, are rewarded, and then continue to grow. Before long you have a completely corrupted breed.

Its just so sad that so many people let their vision be clouded by the dollar signs and stop looking out for the welfare of their horses and the long time useablity of the breed.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

...and as a consumer you can "vote" by not spending your money on things which create ethical problems. Example: Many people justly complain about paparazzi invading privacy, and gossip rags at the supermarket checkout. But it's only people buying the product that allows that to continue. The problem would go away overnight if nobody bought the product anymore, and used their money to support more ethical products.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Unfortunately, the whole business is a catch-22. Judges can only judge what's in the class. People with actual good horses with correct conformation don't enter because they believe they won't win....and they probably wouldn't because the judge has a "standard" that he/she's looking for and most actual using horses don't have enough bulk or a dainty enough head for it.

IMHO, it's going to take something massively drastic to change it....like getting judges to start DQ-ing entire classes when there isn't a "correct" horse to be had. Then, even when there is a nice and correct horse, the horses that have obviously been bred to be bulky and stand on fenceposts set in teacups DQ-ed anyway on principle.

I wish I could be a halter judge for the stock horse industry. Everything that looked like this would be thrown out of my classes for being non-functional









And horses like this would start winning again
(BTW, this mare was the 1982 reserve world champion for 3 year old mares...and she had points in 4 performance events; heading, heeling, reining, and working cow horse)


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

The hind leg on that top horse is so straight it looks deformed - how does it even move? What are the implications for soundness?
...hmmm, more electric shock therapy needs to be applied somewhere...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Sue, and the sad thing is that I googled "aqha halter champion" and that was actually one of the more _normal_ looking ones :shock:.

I mean, check out the "champion" studs that these folks are standing :?
Clark Rassi Quarter Horses - Leading Breeder of AQHA World Champion Halter Horses!

And this, I really wish it was some sort of bad photoshop but it's not. That's an actual "reserve world champion" halter horse


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Ugh!:evil: smrobs, those horses on that site - how terribly conformed & deformed they look! Aside from the apparent massive entrophy, that mare I posted doesn't look all that bad next to those stallions - So the almost dainty, post legs, the roached back & the butt-high are also meant to be 'good' traits to breed?? What on earth is wrong with these people??


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## Samson5261 (Jul 25, 2013)

I would love to know what they use the track for in the picture at the bottom! There's no way any of those horses pictured could go around it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

loosie said:


> So the almost dainty, post legs, the roached back & the butt-high are also meant to be 'good' traits to breed?? What on earth is wrong with these people??


To answer your second question, I have no idea.

As for the first question, I don't think it's so much that they are _good_ traits to breed for, I think they are more a side effect of the "can't see the forest for the trees" syndrome. People get so focused on a certain trait that they lose track of all others. With halter people, it's about the muscle mass and the petite head. They want something that's 15.3 and 1800 pounds...they just forget to remember that it needs bigger than 00 feet.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

smrobs said:


> ..they just forget to remember that it needs bigger than 00 feet.


Unfortunately, they are breeding FOR those double or triple ought feet. 

Mostly, I stay out of these threads because halter people (hottah peeps) like their halter pigs (hottah peegs) to be rather on the full side and I, don't like it, but don't really care if that's how they want to show their horses. Everybody needs a hobby. But the FEET! OMG, the weight they are putting on those tiny feet with closed, cramped heels......Makes MY feet hurt. :shock:


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

And i thought my mare was a freak for her large feet (not flared). Im SOOOO glad she had 0 feet at 14.2hh (arab) then being 15hh with 00 or 000! That is just scary! How do they NOT founder?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

smrobs said:


> Sue, and the sad thing is that I googled "aqha halter champion" and that was actually one of the more _normal_ looking ones :shock:.
> 
> I mean, check out the "champion" studs that these folks are standing :?
> Clark Rassi Quarter Horses - Leading Breeder of AQHA World Champion Halter Horses!
> ...


:shock: (I could not find the "vomiting" emoticon, we really need one for this thread...)

Smrobs, I'm trying to eat here. Those horses are truly grotesque, through no fault of their poor selves. What is going on with people? Can't those kind of folks just ****** off and ride motorbikes instead of meddle with horses? I don't care how stupid they want to make their motorbikes look and then think they are so cool for making them look stupid - but these are sentient creatures, riddled with deformities imposed on them by imbeciles breeding selectively for deformities, and so this is totally out of line. 

...did you see the "email us" prompt at the bottom of their site? My gosh, what would you email? But you just can't reason with people like that. "Suchan Ego" - now there's a Freudian slip - "Enlightened" - I think not...

Grrr. :evil:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

...and none of this rubbish happens when horse breeding is based on performance instead of appearance. Performance breeding gave us magnificent draught horses, racehorses, showjumpers, endurance horses, stock horses, harness horses etc. Many Warmblood associations in Europe, at least 30 years ago, used to have performance requirements for prospective stallions - e.g. the Bavarian Warmblood Association mandated that stallions, to stand at stud, had to get to a certain level in showjumping _and_ dressage _and_ carriage driving, _and_ they also had to be able to plough a field! This produced a versatile and athletic animal - and none of them looked deformed.

Performance breeding of other domestic animals can be fraught however, for example, if "yield" becomes synonymous with performance. That gives us broiler chickens that grow so fast most of them have signs of serious arthritis at killing age, dairy cows whose daily energy requirements for milk production are equivalent to jogging for, I think it was 12 hours a day or something absurd like that, beef bulls so heavy they have to be slaughtered at quite a young age due to health problems caused by excess weight - just to give a few examples. There's a film on that which is now on you tube somewhere, maybe someone ought to dig it up...


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

jamesqf said:


> I don't think you can put all the blame on the judges. After all, if people didn't enter their horses in beauty contests, and buy expensive horses bred from beauty contest winners, the judges wouldn't have any effect.


James, I have to disagree. Ultimately the judges are influencing the breeding and training of the winners. How they subjectively decide to place horses drives everything. No one (except the trashling group of back yard breeders!) is going to bother breeding horses that don't win consistantly.

It is thought that this is how Western Pleasure got so screwed up. The slowest of horses started winning no matter how bad they looked. Then of course everyone started cranking them down, turning them into peanut rollers who travel with their hips canted to the inside and forcing them to do 4 beat lopes (tropes) and the equally ugly wog (half a walk/half a jog).

Don't even get me started on the AQHA HUS-it's a laughable embarassment to every real hunt seat rider.

I have heard rumors that AQHA is now video taping their judges and putting stewards in the ring taking notes to report back on those who aren't judging by the new rules. If this is true, its huge step in the right direction but it's going to take years for this to trickle down to the lower level judges.


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## liltuktuk (Dec 16, 2011)

We need a vomiting emoticon and an "eyes bleeding" emoticon. Because that's what my eyes feel like they're doing after seeing those halter studs. :evil:

Ugh, I can't un-see that. 

At least their facility looks nice? Though I doubt the studs ever get to go out in those perfect pastures with the nice run-in-sheds for fear that they'd trip on their too small feet and break something. 

I can't figure out how they'd even move with those back legs anyway! Every time I try all I can picture is their posty back legs driving into the ground and someone coming along and using them to string up fence. :shock::lol:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Perhaps locomotion in those sorts of horses would be assisted by strapping wheels to their hooves.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I dont think even that would help these horses
This is a WEANLING


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

I just can't stand those huge, saggy diaper butts that drop way lower than any horse's hindquarters ever though...and those pasterns...and the huge meaty shoulders. Halter breeding like this is creeping its way into so many other QHs too, and it is really starting to turn me off of the breed whereas I used to love them. Give me a good cow bred one any time that HAS to be able to stay sound, but they still just don't make them like they used to be.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SueC said:


> ...did you see the "email us" prompt at the bottom of their site? My gosh, what would you email? But you just can't reason with people like that. "Suchan Ego" - now there's a Freudian slip - "Enlightened" - I think not...


I refrained from commenting on the 'Ego' name, but what I _wrote_ was questioning what happened to those horses pictured & how do you treat it...:twisted:


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Horses like THIS need to win halter

"Gunner"









Big Chex To Cash


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Or this guy. I'm absolutely in love with him right now and I would kill to have a mare that was quality enough to breed to him. I think he'd cross really well on some old school ranch lines to make a crackerjack ranch/cow horse.

Metallic Cat (NCHA horse of the year and 2nd highest money-earning stallion in the history of the NCHA)


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I was trying to find that pic lol!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

KigerQueen said:


> I dont think even that would help these horses
> This is a WEANLING


This is perhaps the freakiest looking horse I have ever seen. I can't get stop staring at those hindquarters. How did that posty leg conformation EVER come into style.

You know, I just trail ride. I am not super picky on conformation, as long as the horse is sound and functional. I can overlook a little bit of "crooked" or "ugly" here and there. But oh my gosh, you can't even trail ride THAT. Must less an actual performance discipline. If a horse isn't built good enough to walk down a trail, what is he good for?

That's why I am not anti-grade horse. As long as the people breeding registered horses are breeding horses like these, how can you possibly knock a Mustang or grade? The average Mustang or grade ran run circles around these halter horses. I dare say an unbiased horseman would say Mustangs or grades have far better conformation. It shouldn't be this way! The registered horses should be the best, right?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

KigerQueen said:


> Horses like THIS need to win halter
> 
> "Gunner"
> 
> ...





smrobs said:


> Or this guy. I'm absolutely in love with him right now and I would kill to have a mare that was quality enough to breed to him. I think he'd cross really well on some old school ranch lines to make a crackerjack ranch/cow horse.
> 
> Metallic Cat (NCHA horse of the year and 2nd highest money-earning stallion in the history of the NCHA)


These guys are all gorgeous! I like a hunky, chunky Quarter Horse as much as the next guy. Just not with bizarre proportions. :lol:


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I've always like Dunbars Gold. I know he's kind of a genetic anomaly, but I think he has really nice conformation. 

Could be a touch heavier boned, but then again, I prefer a larger boned horse than most people seem to. Otherwise, I think he's quite a hunk.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Uh! Brindle! I wanna!


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## liltuktuk (Dec 16, 2011)

KigerQueen said:


> I dont think even that would help these horses
> This is a WEANLING


GAH! I don't even have words!

I'll take my grade mutt of a yearling any day over that monstrosity! My guy has his faults, but he's at least useable and based on what I can see and compare to other horses is built to last.

Gunner and the roan and the brindle...*drool*


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

LOVE Gunner. Look at those hocks and hindquarters!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Gunner was my absolute favorite stallion. I'm looking for a son of his that has all the good characteristics and LOOKS like him color wise. Or, a daughter that I can afford!


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## doubleopi (Dec 27, 2011)

KigerQueen said:


> I dont think even that would help these horses
> This is a WEANLING


 Looks like a first grader's drawing of a horse...


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

KigerQueen said:


> Horses like THIS need to win halter
> 
> "Gunner"
> 
> ...


These are stunning horses, and _real_ horses - super conformations. The horse at the bottom, I've not seen that colour before - is there an official name for it, or is it just a dappled variation of palomino?


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

He is just a dappled palomino sabino. And what a love most about these horses is there bums. No weird butt! The have a ROUND bum and don't look like mutants! THAT is how a QH is supposed to look!


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## Peanutbutter (Apr 23, 2014)

Excuse my ignorance, but what are these horses with the weird buts used for? Are there supposed to be cattle working horses? Because I can't wrap my head around how they would be able to move around and do sharp turns and moves without falling over.....
It looks like to different horses sawn together wrong in the middle.. Repulsive. Poor horse...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jykyk3Kn_ag


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Kiger, you said 'bum'! I just had to look at where you came from that you said that - I thought Americans only used that term to mean homeless person!?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Peanutbutter, those horses are, unfortunately, not able to be used for anything. That's one of the reasons why we dislike them so much. I'd venture a guess that probably more than 80% of halter horses are never broke to saddle and those few that are are so rough and uncomfortable to ride that nobody wants to ride them.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I know someone who has halter arabians. She plans to possibly break her stud to saddle at 10 because "riding changes their body shape".


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)




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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Lol i watch the Yogscast every day and they are from england. after about 3 years of watching them i have started to pick certain words XD!

Also LOVE tactical face palm!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

WHAT is a facepalm, tactical or otherwise??


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## MinervaELS (Mar 4, 2014)

Sue, in the US people often use "bum" instead of butt when talking to or around younger children. Most parents don't like their kids running around saying "butt" before a certain age. :lol:

Loosie, to understand facepalm you must view the most famous facepalm:











You know, when someone says or does something so idiotic that you must hide your face from the magnitude of their stupidity and shame. :lol:


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I did that in class the other day. I facepalmed so hard i had a red mark on my forehead XD! It dose make you feel better though lol!


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

MinervaELS said:


> Sue, in the US people often use "bum" instead of butt when talking to or around younger children. Most parents don't like their kids running around saying "butt" before a certain age. :lol:


Thanks for that, but loosie asked the Q!  Yeah I know, us Aussies, so hard to distinguish! ;-)

So you mean "butt" rates more highly on the Richter scale of bad language than "bum"? I guess we could say "posterior" - or "gluteus maximus" - or "behind" - or "rump" or "backside"...

For really interesting terms, Roget's Thesaurus is good, it gives us gems like stern, derriere, croup, occiput, podex, prat, keister, tuchis, and tush.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My vocabulary has grown!!!!! There are new words to teach the little brother XD!


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## Saddlebred11 (Mar 27, 2014)

Also they make the horses run behind golf carts to get the muscle. And I am sure steroids. 
I cannot stand this, I have to judge these horses is 4H and FFA and all and it kills me. Many halter classes can be backed with reason, this not so much. Or not at all. It just doesn't make sense...


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## Peanutbutter (Apr 23, 2014)

smrobs said:


> Peanutbutter, those horses are, unfortunately, not able to be used for anything. That's one of the reasons why we dislike them so much. I'd venture a guess that probably more than 80% of halter horses are never broke to saddle and those few that are are so rough and uncomfortable to ride that nobody wants to ride them.


Oh dear. That is very sad..


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

It is sad. SOME might end up in the western pleasure ring but other than that they just breed more deformed beef babies.


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## TheSacrificialSloth (Apr 18, 2014)

Whoah, I thought this was photoshopped before reading down.That's absolutely horrible.


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## KatieMae (Mar 7, 2013)

I have really bad eyes. Like, pathetically bad. I'm sitting at work right now and as I've gone through each page in this thread, my face gets closer and closer to the screen and my squint becomes more pronounced. No less than five people have asked where my glasses are and I've had to tell them that I've got my contacts in but I'm looking through something so fascinating and yet so grotesque at the same time that I find myself leaning into the computer.

Now. How do I go about explaining conformation of the AQHA/APHA et cetera to a bunch of gearheads?!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Show them the fugly i posted and they will know. Even non horse people can see those horses and KNOW they are not right. 

My friend's parents used to breed and show western pleasure horses along with showing in some halter. She CANNOT watch western pleasure anymore because the horses that move the best always place last. She is sickened by the sport now and how the horses are bred to look. Her gelding is 22-23 years old and is still good looking and stocky. This is not only a show horse but a using horse. these current halter (and some wp) horses cannot hold up like the old stock.

Blacks Bear Quarter Horse


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## KatieMae (Mar 7, 2013)

Amusingly (or sadly?) enough, I broke it down in terms of dog showing, so Westminster versus field trials. They got it immediately. Then I showed them some of the photos on this thread and even they recoiled in horror.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Yep. I can show non horse people halter horses and they say "what's wrong with it?" Or "how. Dose it move?" Sadly gone are the days of true proformance and showing. Its all politics (as mentioned on 'what makes it worth breeding') and sadly the horses suffer. I wanted to get into showing but now I'm starting to take my bfs stance on it. He dose not like being judged by people. He's thinking is they will not mark you high because you are not riding the well bred horse. He shows in speed events on his paint that was born in a was and raised in the wild. No papers. Same with his unregisterd tb gelding. They win not because breeding but training. That tb can do everything from a running walk, dressage, barrels to keyhole and some jumping and he is 28. I read more threds like this and I might just do endurance riding.

(I'm sorry for spelling errors. Cell has no spell check :-[ )


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