# Brown or Chestnut?



## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

I think he's a liver chestnut, but I'm not a color guru
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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

Going off what I've read on here in the past... I'd guess brown. It looks like he has a black muzzle and black, sun bleached mane and tail.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I would call that a liver chestnut but I am not a color person, it's just what I would call it.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

He's chestnut.


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## disastercupcake (Nov 24, 2012)

If I remember correctly from my college class, a chestnut base color will not vary at the points, and a black base color will have black points. This horse does not have significant variation at the points, so I'd say he's a liver chestnut.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I am not 100% sure, would have to see the horse in better condition. However, I am leaning toward a faded black to be honest.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

My vote is for chestnut.


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## ShaynadhMarzer (Oct 19, 2012)

Liver Chestnut is what I'd call that.


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

I would say brown


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm gonna jump on board with Chiilaa on this one. My first impression of this horse kinda made me think this horse is a black that has sun faded a lot. I think he will look more black as he is kept in good condition.
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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm guessing black on this one, too. I don't see the tell-tale light color above the coronet bands that a dark chestnut would have, nor do I see the lightening of the soft points that a seal bay would have.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Ooh. Looking again, black could be a possibility.. Interesting. 

I'm blind some days apparently.


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## Kayella (Feb 11, 2012)

I was thinking faded black or smoky black?
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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I say liver chestnut. He looks incredibly similar to a WB I was training, in the WB's baby pictures. That horse now looks black, if I hadn't seen the baby pics, and been told, I would have thought he was a nice black horse. But he looked at about a year old exactly like this guy. Ducati that's his page. You can definitely see the red in his coat during the summer. No idea why they call him a black liver, as far as I know that isn't a color. Anyways, my vote, liver chestnut.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

dressagebelle said:


> I say liver chestnut. He looks incredibly similar to a WB I was training, in the WB's baby pictures. That horse now looks black, if I hadn't seen the baby pics, and been told, I would have thought he was a nice black horse. But he looked at about a year old exactly like this guy. Ducati that's his page. You can definitely see the red in his coat during the summer. No idea why they call him a black liver, as far as I know that isn't a color. Anyways, my vote, liver chestnut.


There is no way that horse could be chestnut. His sire is homozygous for black. Ducati has to be a fading black, which is supported by the fact his foal coat points to black, and that he is pure black in winter.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I still have a hard time believing he's a liver, but multiple people have told me he is, including the breeder. I do wonder if they ended up ever having him tested. And he never fades, he's always a nice dark black except when he gets his winter fuzzies, and get just slightly lighter, and red tinted, but still clearly black. The same owner had a definite liver chestnut mare, quite red, and obviously chestnut, yet she swears this guy is the same, just darker. I'd love to see him shaved honestly, see what his coat looks like short. After so many people telling me he is, and me not being a color guru, I just assumed he must be. But thank you for validating my continuing disbelieve that he is a liver. Do most, or all blacks look chocolately like he did as a foal?


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

^^^ If his sire is truly homozygous black, then there is no genetic possibility he is chestnut, despite what you have been told.

I see fading black on the OP horse too.


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## howrsegirl123 (Feb 19, 2012)

Liver chestnut
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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

I went to their for sale page, and looked at foals, and they mark several of them as liver (all are by Donnermeyer), and a couple black livers again. Either she's just making up her own color names to make them sound more exotic, or someone told her that you can get a liver even if the sire is homozygous black. Interesting. Well thanks again for clearing that up, and confirming what I already suspected but had been told was wrong.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Here is no way that Donnermeyer is homozygous for black. Two of those youngsters performing are liver chestnuts, as are some of the foals though they might change a tad.

That horse is a liver chestnut. He has no black points on his legs nor is his mane or tail black.
You might say he is a faded black but I have yet to see a horse fade evenly and when they do fade they do not go liver chestnut.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

Foxhunter said:


> Here is no way that Donnermeyer is homozygous for black. Two of those youngsters performing are liver chestnuts, as are some of the foals though they might change a tad.
> 
> That horse is a liver chestnut. He has no black points on his legs nor is his mane or tail black.
> You might say he is a faded black but I have yet to see a horse fade evenly and when they do fade they do not go liver chestnut.


I now have more questions lol, but I'm going to start my own thread so I don't hijack this one. Colors interest me, so everything I can learn is cool. So the end comment was about the op's horse right, just want to get the horses correct. As I understand from your comment, if he were black, he'd fade unevenly, and his mane and tail would definitely be black, so therefore, he is liver. Did I get that right?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

In my opinion and experience a black horse will always retain a black basis. The black on the legs remains black, the under hair of the mane and tail remain black. 

A liver chestnut can often be so dark it might look black but, on closer examination you will see the hair is actually a dark brown.

In the UK vets are not allowed to classify any horse as black for TB registration.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It doesn't matter about the colour we see (phenotype). If, as the owners say he is, the stallion is homozygous for black, then there is no possible way at all that his foals are red based.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Donnermeyer

Scroll down the above page and you will see horses that are definitely _not_ black. There is more than one liver chestnut from this horse. 




The coat color of every horse is built on one of two base colors: black or red. The Extension gene controls the production of black pigment (eumelanin) or red pigment (phaeomelanin). Genetic testing will determine whether the horse is black based (E/e or E/E) or red based (e/e). A horse with two black alleles (E/E) will never produce a red offspring.

Going by the above I would say this horse is E/e rather than E/E because he _is _ producing red offspring.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I don't know which horses you are talking about. All the horses on that page, and on his foals page, are black based. They are also saying he is homozygous black, which is E/E.

I don't understand how they could be lying about it. Either they are lying about the stallion being homozygous for black, or they are wrong about the colours of some of the foals. If they are lying, why? If it is to increase his marketability, then why would they then say he had produced liver foals that reduce his marketability as a homozygous black?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I'm not seeing any red based offspring on that page either. Some of them are bay and brown and a few are really faded black, but no chestnuts.

As for the horse in the OP, my first gut instinct was fading black as well, but I won't claim to be 100% sure about that.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

How you can say that the two of his youngsters competing, top right and bottom left are black and the centre foal looks liver chestnut to me. 

I admit my eyes aren't as good as they once were but I do wear my spectacles, perhaps I should get them rose tinted?


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> How you can say that the two of his youngsters competing, top right and bottom left are black and the centre foal looks liver chestnut to me.
> 
> I admit my eyes aren't as good as they once were but I do wear my spectacles, perhaps I should get them rose tinted?



Are you talking about in the lineup from the inspection, where there are three foals? They are sun bleached, making them look brownish, but the base colors are still black. A lot of black foals start out mousy colored, many turn brown before they shed their foal coats, then shed off to their true color. Like others I looked through this page: Donnermeyer Foals and clicked more pics and every single foal appears to be black based.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Both the top right and bottom left are bay. You can clearly see the black points on both of them... I'm with Chiilaa and smrobs, I'm not seeing any red based horses there...


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

OK so having just read quite a bit about this, an EE horse *can* throw another colour. Unless the dam had one or two black parents then the foal could well be chestnut in varying degrees. 
The foal takes a gene from either parent. 

I agree that foals change colour quite a lot and their baby coats bleach out more easily but they do not bleach out evenly.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

I am sorry your understanding of chestnut is incorrect. Yes an EE can throw other colors (many other colors!)... Bay, brown, grulla, buckskin, bay dun, bay roan, buckskin, smokey brown... These are all black based color possibilities (and many more I didn't list)... But it can only throw black based foals. Chestnut requires ee, so when one parent is EE all foals inherit one copy of E, making ee impossible. If one parent is homozygous EE, all foals will be black based, none can be ee or red based (chestnut, liver or any other shade). Whether a foal is Ee or EE it is black based. Only a horse that is ee is red based.


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