# Dynamo Jin- Breaking to drive



## AlmagroN

alright, so Dynamoo Jin (Jinny for short) is our second foal from our broodmare. shes a yearling now and its time to learn the "lines". shes been a pleasure to break really. its like its all in her bood already. we crosstied her, and harnessed her, and walked her with it on, for the first time (for everything) all in one day. the next day she got the bridle and walked. and then she got her bit tied back and walked. THAT wasnt a good day (SEE PHOTO BELOW). but thats been her only mistake. so she started line driving around the barns for 3 days. that went well. so today we hooked her to the cart. we took her around the barns a little and then up onto the track. now the main track is 1/2 mile and then there is grass inside, and then a smaller 1/3 mile track then more grass and 2 show arenas. so we went to the inside track and were walking with her (my and my cousins son) while my cousin drove. well Jinny decided she didnt want to walk slow anymore, so my cousins son and i hopped on the cart and she went 2 laps around the inside track with no problems. im so proud of her right now. shes been so quick and easy to break and shes soooo compliant!

PHOTO- Jinny decided she didnt like the way the bit felt tied back so she played dead.... until we took off the bridle... then she tried to play dead AND eat grass..... get up Jinny, get up...


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## shesinthebarn

At least she didn't do it with the jog cart on! One did that last year - it was not cute. I just waited for like 5 minutes, and she hopped up and jogged off! Fun time of year, eh?


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## AlmagroN

if there is anything i hate, its breaking babies!!! luckily she is our only one to break this year, and she has been super!


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## home made

what does tying the bit back mean


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## lillie

actually, im shocked; you mean you broke a yearling to drive and only in a few days? over here we really wouldnt be doing that until they are at least 2 and a half, and we would take monthes to achieve the end result of putting them to a cart. i wanted to know the difference between driving in u.k., and in other countries, and this , gosh, has really surprized me! is it common practice in the carriage driving community to break them so young over there? i'm not surprized the poor baby has just laid down.,poor thing


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## AlmagroN

home made said:


> what does tying the bit back mean


tying the bit back means you tie the bit to the harness so it manipulates the line pulling when she turns her head.



lillie said:


> actually, im shocked; you mean you broke a yearling to drive and only in a few days? over here we really wouldnt be doing that until they are at least 2 and a half, and we would take monthes to achieve the end result of putting them to a cart. i wanted to know the difference between driving in u.k., and in other countries, and this , gosh, has really surprized me! is it common practice in the carriage driving community to break them so young over there? i'm not surprized the poor baby has just laid down.,poor thing


shes a racehorse, not a carriage horse. poor baby? you act like we were abusing her. she layed down because she felt something new and decided she didnt like it. it was her way of saying so. poor thing my butt, she layed there and tried to eat grass while playing dead. she is fully broke now and jogs 2miles a day. she can be hooked and unhooked from the cart without having to have anyone else there. shes probably better broke than most older horses.


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## jimmy

i,m in england been driving and breaking horses since i was a child and always broke them as yearlings


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## lillie

oh, im not saying you are abusing her- im saying im very surprised. different strokes for different folks.


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## jimmy

every one has differant ideas i suppose its what ever a person is comfortable doing with their own animal


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## lillie

well have to admit, i am easy going generally, but i do think its to young; a whole lot of physical problems later on, are probably going to stem from this early a start for the horses. so we are just going to have to agree to disagree.


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## AlmagroN

we have had many many racehorses retire at the age of 15 without any problems because of when they were broke.


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## weefoal

To each their own but I strongly disagree with training a yearling to drive. They are not ready physically or mentally and I think the picture proves that. 

Their knees dont even close until ages 3-5

Also miniatures and ponies are very compliant which really can be a bad thing for them. I would never hook a cart to a horse that has only been line driving for 3 days. 

Instead of instant gratification people need to think long term.


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## Mingiz

weefoal said:


> To each their own but I strongly disagree with training a yearling to drive. They are not ready physically or mentally and I think the picture proves that.
> 
> Their knees dont even close until ages 3-5
> 
> Also miniatures and ponies are very compliant which really can be a bad thing for them. I would never hook a cart to a horse that has only been line driving for 3 days.
> 
> Instead of instant gratification people need to think long term.


 
I agree with you. I worked at a training barn with Standerbreds for harness racing. We never started a yearling. We always waited until they were 2 before we did any serious training. If your jogging a yearling 2 miles every day you won't have a race horse for very long. Way too much stress for a yearling....


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## lillie

absolutly agreeing with everyone who says it is wrong to do this before 2 1/2. and i also question your methods, but i want to add that i think it is extremely foolish and potentially dangerous to advise people you dont know ( or anyone for that matter) to try to break ( i dont like this word, but in this case i think it might be appropriate) to try to break a horse to harness in a week. so many things could go wrong and for someone with no experience or background in driving, to then get caught up in a situation of panicked horse, which hasnt had the correct level of time invested in it , could prove fatal. and much as i dont approve of any horse being started as young as original poster is advocating, there is a vast difference between starting a novice driver and a novice horse in an environment such as a track and to then give the impression that it is so quick and easy that someone could think it was safe to do so on a public road. i really do think it is very irresponsible.


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## AlmagroN

Mingiz said:


> I agree with you. I worked at a training barn with Standerbreds for harness racing. We never started a yearling. We always waited until they were 2 before we did any serious training. If your jogging a yearling 2 miles every day you won't have a race horse for very long. Way too much stress for a yearling....


serious training? at 2? i highly doubt that. standardbreds racing careers are supposed to START at 2. 90% of STB racehorses are broke as yearlings, the other 10% are because people dont do anything with them and usually end up just getting rid of them.
2miles slow is not serious work. serious work is when she learns to turn and start training down her miles, trying to shave time off as she goes along. she doesnt start this until she turns 2, but is well broke ahead of time in preparation.



lillie said:


> absolutly agreeing with everyone who says it is wrong to do this before 2 1/2. and i also question your methods, but i want to add that i think it is extremely foolish and potentially dangerous to advise people you dont know ( or anyone for that matter) to try to break ( i dont like this word, but in this case i think it might be appropriate) to try to break a horse to harness in a week. so many things could go wrong and for someone with no experience or background in driving, to then get caught up in a situation of panicked horse, which hasnt had the correct level of time invested in it , could prove fatal. and much as i dont approve of any horse being started as young as original poster is advocating, there is a vast difference between starting a novice driver and a novice horse in an environment such as a track and to then give the impression that it is so quick and easy that someone could think it was safe to do so on a public road. i really do think it is very irresponsible.


first off, who said i told anyone to break a horse in a week? she just happened to be a great well mannered horse who learned very quickly due to her previous handling as a weanling and such. i NEVER told anyone to break a horse in a week. 
secondly, when did i tell someone with no experience to break a horse by themselves? i didnt. 
third, when did i say anything about driving on the road? i didnt. i dont deal with that. i break and drive racehorses, and thats that. if someone asks me what i believe is a good age to start breaking a horse at, i will say yearling. because thats what we do. 

there are over 20 yearlings at the track i am currently training at that are jogging just the same as my yearling is. so you can question my methods all you choose, i really dont care. because obviously a lot of other people have the same methods.


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## lillie

i am basing my comments on the replies you have made to several threads in the driving section, whereby people are asking advice on how to break thier horse to drive, etc. and in none of them have they said that they are breaking a horse for harness racing. they also havent said where they are driving them or what thier level of experience is. and to be honest, just because it is common practice at your track, or any other track, doesnt make it right or in the best interests of the horse. so i guess we will have to continue to disagree with each other


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## weefoal

Im trying really hard to stay respectful but dang its hard. 

Why you feel you have to resort to this



> tying the bit back means you tie the bit to the harness so it manipulates the line pulling when she turns her head.


On a horse that by your words was very willing and compliant I will never know. 

Maybe if you would wait until shes mature mentally and physically you wont have to resort to that. 

The picture to me is heartbreaking and shows a horse that has had enough. You may think its cute or funny but to me it shows a horse in distress. I have never had a horse do that ever. But then I would never try to train a horse to drive in 3 days. 

Horses live on average 20 years so why would anyone try to do it all when they are only a yearling. Again people need to think LONG TERM not just TODAY. What is the rush??? In rated shows she cannot show in driving until shes 3!

We dont "break" horses here - we train them.


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## AlmagroN

she layed down once, and that was it. ive seen adult horses lay down. ive seen horses that chronically lay down every time they are hooked to a cart because they were never broken of the habit. 

she didnt like the feeling of the bit, so instead of throwing a temper tantrum and throwing herself all over, rearing, striking, etc. she layed down. obviously it wasnt that traumatic if she layed there eating grass. if she was that stressed she would have been blowing and sweating, not eating grass. 

as far as adivce ive given people. its a forum. people are coming on for advice from all types of people. just because YOU dont agree doesnt mean your advice is right and someone elses is wrong. everyone has their own way of doing things. if it works for them then fine.

but so far ive been called irresponsable, and foolish. as far as im concerned thats not called for. had i been a new member i would have been out of here ASAP. keep this in mind when posting. some people dont appreciate it, and it WILL drive new members away.


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## weefoal

I have not called you or anyone else names. There are always many ways to do something. 

But this is an open forum so just as you have the right to post your opinion, I have the right to disagree, and give my opinion.


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## AlmagroN

weefoal said:


> I have not called you or anyone else names. There are always many ways to do something.
> 
> But this is an open forum so just as you have the right to post your opinion, I have the right to disagree, and give my opinion.


i didnt say you did at all. i dont mind opinions, but when someone calls someone names for the way they train or such, thats uncalled for. everyone has different ways of doing things. sometimes you have to suck it up and admit that your way isnt the only way to do something. i never called anyone dumb or anything for waiting until the horse is older to break. do i agree, maybe not, but thats not my decision.


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## bubba13

As long as you don't mind permanently crippling your horse both physically and mentally, keep on with what you're doing. When a horse lays down that's a last-ditch response to avoid pressure--a mental shut down because they have run out of all other options. In this fillly's case, since it was not a conditioned, learned behavior that she _knew_ would get her out of work from prior experience, she was reacting in the only way she knew how--by shutting down, making herself vulnerable, and "checking out." She was responding to the pain of the bit and confusion from all the various stimulants coming at her that she didn't understand. Not exactly healthy, and something that quickly can become a habit.

Of course, behavioral problems will be the least of your worries when she's breaking down from early-onset osteoarthritis and degenerative soft-tissue diseases. Good luck!


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## AlmagroN

you dont see me sitting here bashing anyone else on here at all for the way they train their horses. so why do it to me? a lot of people break as yearlings. and ill have you know she drives like an angel now. thats the ONLY time she ever did anything like that. get over it people.

and she wasnt responding to the "pain of the bit" we use a soft leather bit on babies. no metal touches their mouths. yes, so painful i know....


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## Pidge

Ok everyone needs to just stop with the bashing! Almost all race horses are broke at a year old where they cart race or saddle race... Everyone needs to keep in mind that this filly is a *race* horse and thus is broke young to start racing at two...

Do you have to agree that the way race horses are broke is good? No but you do not need to bash someone over training a race horse like a race horse...

Im also glad to know your filly is doing so well AlmagroN 

Good luck when she starts racing!


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## lillie

so that makes it right, then??


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## AlmagroN

lillie said:


> so that makes it right, then??


it doesnt make it right, it doesnt make it wrong. 

racehorses are broke as yearlings, thats just how it is. many many many are PERFECTLY FINE! the ones that cant handle it just arent fit to be racehorses. thats just it. its how it is, its how its been since racing began. 

just because you dont agree doesnt give you the right to be nasty and rude. i dont mach around telling YOU that YOURE wrong for the way you train your horses, because its not my decision.

and thank you pidge. im glad someone understands....


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## Pidge

lillie said:


> so that makes it right, then??


I didnt say I thought it was right....To be honest I think the way race horses are broke at a young age is bad for the horses in general...BUT that is how it is...and I doubt the industry will change after years of doing it this way... Try to change it if you wish! I would love to make a differece but im poor and dont have the money to make a dif. in a large industry.

Also Standardbed cart racers are proven to have ALOT less issues then TB saddle racers... and as long as the horse is cared for and supported properly it shouldnt have an issue racing...

Even if I dont like the buisness...IM NOT GOING TO ATTACK SOMEONE BECAUSE THEY ARE BREAKING A RACER LIKE A RACER!!! It just happens this way!!! Racers are broke early!!!

So if AlmagroN is having a wonderful time breaking her filly and her filly is doing nicely im going to support her efforts in training a lovely cart racer... Ive seen this filly in many pictures...trust me she has it off better then most horses ive seen lately...there is no abuse going on...

Also ive seen the pictures of her filly playing dead....they were not photos of a distressed baby...they were photos of a horse who happened to decide that was the best coarse of action...it was quite funny... It was like my horse trying to stomp a tree over because it was in the way instead of walking around it...Horses are strange like this LOL

So I guess the main points of this are...would i start a filly to drive this early? No I would wait till they were atleast three....

Is almagroN in the wrong for breaking her filly this young? No...her sport requires they get broke young...

SO I only wish her the best of luck with her *RACING *filly... 

and thus i have said my peace....


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## AlmagroN

Pidge said:


> Also ive seen the pictures of her filly playing dead....they were not photos of a distressed baby...they were photos of a horse who happened to decide that was the best coarse of action.


my thoughts is, if shes laying down eating grass, shes not that distressed is she? no sweating, no blowing, nothing, just laying there eating grass....


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## Pidge

^Exactly...a horse will not lay there and nibble if they are distressed...and i distressed horse is not likely to lay down either...if they were scared they would not lay down...it goes against the fight or flight instinct...

There is no sweat on that filly in any of the pictures and from what you have said she wasnt blowing air or fighting...she just decided to be goofy and lay down...

I dont see anything that indicates a scared or distressed baby....so everyone just needs to let it go and be glad the filly is doing so well


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## AlmagroN

lets just say i dont know many yearlings that can trailor, crosstie, bathe fully (including head) with a hose or sponge, get blanketed and not chew or pull on the blanket/cooler, have their stall cleaned with them in it with no threat of kicking, spooking, or anything, walk properly with or without a lead, stands for farrier to trim AND has been shod with no problems, can be clipped, etc. all those normal things a horse does every day, never the less she can be harnessed, hooked, and driven without needing someone to hold her to hook and unhook the cart. 

i think we have done well with her... and personally, im proud of what we have accomplished with her in just a year. many people have told me "you would think shes a 13yr old horse shes so well broke"


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## bubba13

Funny--most every yearling I have been around that has been handled properly has excellent ground manners, yet hasn't been put to hard physical labor (or even had undue strain put on the joints). Must be doing something wrong to have them so well-behaved.

And you're right--if everyone else does something, that makes it completely acceptable and A-OK. Obviously the majority is the moral and ethical authority that we should all tune to.

And racehorses NEVER break down or end up lame and slaughter-bond once their short racing careers are over. Never happens.


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## lillie

i have not "attacked" anyone on this forum. living in a free country i have a right to free speech. i make no secret that i dont like your methods of breaking, nor the fact that i think advising other people, whose experience and situation you have no way of knowing, are potentially dangerous, and not good for the horse. i do not have to condone your methods of training, and i think the fact that you appear so hysterical in the wording of some of these replies, shows the fact that deep down you dont think its right either; you are just going along with a method which has been established, by what you say, by tradition in that sphere. by that reckoning, we should be sending our children out to work at 5 years old. but we dont, why? because we have so- say evolved as a species. lets face it the track record alone says that the harness racing industry doesnt really care about its horses- i believe i read in another of algamonN's posts that 9 horses had shattered thier cannon bones on a particular track in 8 years. my question would therefore be, if i was involved in that industry, what could i do to improve conditionsof breaking and racing my horses. not to unquestionably continue to use methods that are not good for the horse, and continue to race them at non adequate tracks. what i would like to know is why dont you take a stand to improve things for the animals you say you love. but in all, i 'm glad that you have put all of this info out for all horse lovers to read; in thier wisdom, they can probably see for themselves, what is the most humane method to use with thier horse, and we can all just thank you for further insite into the harness racing way of going on.


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## AlmagroN

lillie said:


> i believe i read in another of algamonN's posts that 9 horses had shattered thier cannon bones on a particular track in 8 years.


i would love to know where i ever posted that.


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## AlmagroN

lillie said:


> lets face it the track record alone says that the harness racing industry doesnt really care about its horses.


youre reallly going to sit here and say i dont care about my horses? really.

my broodmare tore her xyz ligament and the vets told us to put her down. they said she would never walk again. we spent TONS of time taking care of her and nursing her instead of putting her down. now shes a pasture pet for the most part, but she also is a broodmare, and she can ride. shes fine now. if we didnt care, we would have put her down.

we had a horse get a blood clot that traveled to his brain and he died. it happened right infront of me. there was nothing anyone could do to help him. if we didnt care about our horses, i wouldnt have stayed with him petting him and crying even after he was dead. i would have just shrugged and walked away.

we had a horse who had a chip in his knee. we had surgery and had it removed. later on we found he had a broken sesamoid. he had to have surgery to have part of it removed. we debated over doing the surgery that we really couldnt afford, or finding him a new home. we decided to go with the surgery. you know why? because we love him that much. we couldnt stand to let him go.

a horse my uncle owned, he sold to the amish. the horse meant the world to me. he was alwasy by my side and we loved each other. if i didnt love and care about my horses i wouldnt have cried when he sold him, and i still have his halter i bought him with his name plate on it that i bought him, and his matching lead that i bought him. i have hundreds of picture of him and i still know where he is today. if i did love him i wouldnt have made a promis to myself that as soon as i can i WILL go and buy him from the amish so we can be together again.

i own a mare who my uncle owned since she was 3. the people that had her before beat her pretty bad. she was a wreak. she would throw herself if you moved too fast, couldnt catch her in her stall. etc. we worked for 4 years on her to get her to where she is now. i can do anything with her and i ride her too. my uncle was going to take her to a sale because she just wasnt making any money. so i offered to buy him from her because i know shes a hard mare to get along with and easy to get mad at. i couldnt stand to think of anyone else having her because i know how she is. if i didnt care about our horses i would have let her go to the sale and not cared a bit....

so really, dont tell me how much we dont care about our horses... because we do.... that is the most hurtful thing ive heard said. there is nothing i care about more than my horses....


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## mayfieldk

Sorry Almagron. You posted on the WRONG forum if you wanted an open mind about training babies young.

For EVERYone else who thinks she's permanently crippling her yearling--

Oh my GOD. Seriously? The poor baby yearling can't handle jogging two miles a day? What the HELL would it have done in the wild, then?

Why do you think Mustangs are as hardy as they are?

The only way to make bones and tendons strong in an adult horse is to _LIGHTLY_ stress them. If you sit a horse in a pasture for two, three, four--HEAVEN forbid five years--before you EVER start working them, why do you think all these pampered warmbloods have leg problems just doing dressage work?

Studies show this all the time. Stress the hooves when they're little and they'll have a better hoof. Put them in a stall when they'll little on fluffy bedding and you'll have bad hooves, bad legs, and bad tendons, as well as growing problems.

Straight work--STRAIGHT WORK.--jogging is not going to harm this baby, especially at the speed and distance she's going at.

There's nothing wrong with breaking a baby to drive. They _need_ work that is more then them wandering around in a pasture.

Where are the statistics about warmblood injuries? All of these so-called 'pampered' horses? In the grand scheme of things, race horses are by _far_ the most sturdy because of their training. You could tell me that 1000 get injured every year permanently--and that wouldn't be a lot when you realize how many horses are in training. 'But that's 1,000 horses that didn't have to get hurt!!' --Horses get hurt in EVERY discipline. We just have the statistics on race horses to throw the finger.

I'm sorry to say that I don't agree with _racing_ them at two because _that_ is too stressful, but I can't change an entire industry.

But jeeze people, get off you're 'holier-then-you' stands and do some research.


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## Pidge

To Bubba13...you are just being downright rude...

To Lillie... I never said it was right in fact i said i personally disagree with it...but look at the big picture... you said why do i not take a stand? Because A young girl with no money does not have the economic status to make a difference... in the USA money is everything... and thats just a fact...if you dont have the money to own race horses break them later then prove they are healthier and win more money then ones broke young then no one in the industry will listen.

Its also obvious that AlmagroN loves her horses deeply and i think everyone needs to give her a break... Race horses are wonderful animals...and its sad that there are hundreds of bad owners who give the industry a terrible name...but she is not a bad owner...she cares about her horses...I dont see her beating them or sending them off to slaughter and I havent seen any injury to this filly to validate any claims that she doesnt care...

Why is it that topics over race horses always end up going down hill? Every sport has its flaws and problems...western horses are muscled out to early...jumpers are pushed to jump to high to soon... gaited horses have been trained to gait through cruel methods...race horses are broke to young...

If you ask me there are much worse things that can happen then a horse being broke young...

To AlmagroN...lets get back on topic some shall we? Some good talk to go with the arguments... what is your fillys work out like currently? Ive always been sorta curious about cart racing but all i really know about about is saddle racing...curious to see the differences


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## lillie

but the point that i am making is that it is wrong to advise people who have never broken a horse to drive, and have not stated an interest in harness racing, to use these very methods that you yourself, pidge, has just said you dont think are right, therefore, why advise others to do it, and why on earth would you then defend that way of doing things??? or are you ganging up and bullying me, which afterall almagonN has accused me of bullying her- totally pathetic, because i havent been rude to her, or called her names, as i have been accused??? and why, having posted all of the op's details about her youngster and the methods you ( i am speaking generally here) have used to achieve them, are you then surprised if people disagree? and to put the point straight, there are many, many expert horsepeople who agree with me. if no one speaks out about practices that are not in the best interests of the horse, then progress is never made. and to be honest, some well qualified people on this forum, apart from myself have been dismayed at the methods that the op has sited. if we want to tell people that there is a better way, why shouldnt we have the right to do so. and to the previous person who says a yearling should be moving around, yes it should, in a feild, growing strong and healthy, and maturing in its MIND as well as it's body. it should not be standing tied to a cart for a day while someone goes back periodically to move stones around on it, etc. etc. as the op has recomended as a means of breaking to harness, it should not be pulling the weight of a aliminum cart + one human. and in my opinion, which is based on many years experience with horses, the only people who would say otherwise are those who have a vested interest in these practices, and i doubt that they have a real understanding of the horses physche, let alone it's physical body, because it plain isnt in thier interests to consider a better alternative, is it? and, by the way, i was not slating an entire industry, i was pointing out the fact that rather than shout at outsiders that they should keep thier nose out and not disagree, that there efforts would be better employed trying to improve things for thier horses safety and wellbeing, not simply accept things because thats the way it is done.


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## ShutUpJoe

You guys are talking about a horse pulling around a racing "bike" like it weighs 2,000 pounds. Have any of you people even seen or lifted one of them? They are VERY light weight. 

In comparison it's like this:








(just to lighten the thread a little)


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## jimmy

horses for courses, it would be ideal in an ideal world to wait until a horse got to 3,4years of age b4 it was broke but check all the driving cobs thats for sale on the net ,plenty are just 2 and driving not saying its right or wrong its economics i had horses i broke as yearlings years ago and had them in a 4wheeler collecting scrap metal round the streets,wrong,probably but thats reality


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## jimmy

and just to add fuel to the fire,if a yearling filly came on horsing she gets the stallion


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## AlmagroN

Pidge said:


> To AlmagroN...lets get back on topic some shall we? Some good talk to go with the arguments... what is your fillys work out like currently? Ive always been sorta curious about cart racing but all i really know about about is saddle racing...curious to see the differences


thanks again pidge for being understanding. 

my fillys workout is quite simple. she gets out and harnessed and hooked. she goes to the track and jogs (which is basically just over a fast walk, like a slow trot but only shes on the pace-sorta) she jogs 2 miles which is 4 times around the track. she jogs with other horses, she turns around and goes the other direction (we jog horses opposite the direction we race them) and all that good stuff. basically shes just learning how to jog and getting used to all the sights and sounds. there are tractors and such on the track so she has to learn to just ignore them and move along, which she does. she doesnt even break a sweat unless its exceptionally warm out- our weather has been kooky here. everyone has a big ol winter coat because it will snow, but then all the sudden like the other day it was almost 70! i would sweat too!



lillie said:


> which afterall almagonN has accused me of bullying her- totally pathetic, because i havent been rude to her, or called her names, as i have been accused???


im going to look back and acutally QUOTE where you have been rude and called names



lillie said:


> and why, having posted all of the op's details about her youngster and the methods you ( i am speaking generally here) have used to achieve them, are you then surprised if people disagree?


what are the methods? please, i beg you to tell me. i personally dont think my methods are bad. harnessing, then line driving, then bridling and line driving, etc. really? my methods are soooo bad?



lillie said:


> and to put the point straight, there are many, many expert horsepeople who agree with me.


 what makes them experts? there are many "experts" in the racing industry that highly agree with me. so what makes your "experts" better?



lillie said:


> if no one speaks out about practices that are not in the best interests of the horse, then progress is never made. and to be honest, some well qualified people on this forum, apart from myself have been dismayed at the methods that the op has sited.


what makes you so well qualified? and since YOU think you are, that makes, what? everyone else dumb?




lillie said:


> it should not be standing tied to a cart for a day while someone goes back periodically to move stones around on it, etc. etc. as the op has recomended as a means of breaking to harness


what the hell are you talking about? please give me a DIRECT LINK where i have said that. because i have NEVER said that. i have NEVER left a horse hooked for a day. youre now fabricating things to try to make me look bad and yourself look good. THAT my friend is PATHETIC



ShutUpJoe said:


> You guys are talking about a horse pulling around a racing "bike" like it weighs 2,000 pounds. Have any of you people even seen or lifted one of them? They are VERY light weight.


this is VERY true. i can push a jog cart with my cousin who is 160lbs on it with one hand... please, its NOT heavy


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## AlmagroN

bubba13 said:


> Funny--most every yearling I have been around that has been handled properly has excellent ground manners, yet hasn't been put to hard physical labor (or even had undue strain put on the joints). Must be doing something wrong to have them so well-behaved.
> 
> And you're right--if everyone else does something, that makes it completely acceptable and A-OK. Obviously the majority is the moral and ethical authority that we should all tune to.
> 
> And racehorses NEVER break down or end up lame and slaughter-bond once their short racing careers are over. Never happens.


first off, when did i strain her? and secondly, her driving has NOTHING to do with how well behaved she is. she puts many yearlings to shame.

secondly, its the racing industry. learn to understand that. 

third, i NEVER said they never break down or go to slaughter. but DONT EVER try to tell me racehorses are the ONLY horses that break down or go to slaugher because thats a FLAT OUT LIE. i cant speak for everyone but our horses whos racing careers are over are found homes. 

Flawless Victory- lives with a woman who loves the hell out of him. shes always fussing over him and putting ribbons in his hair, etc. he lives a great life, gets turned out all the time. he was 13 when he retired.

La Sourcer Ru- now a riding horse

Mr. Trentonian- pasture pet for an old lady

One Gallant Rush- lives out his life on a HUGE farm being turned out, ridden, and loved. oh and may i add he WON his last race at the age of 14, and was retired after because horses can only race til the end of their 14th year. at 15 they are no longer allowed to race.

Slim N Fit N- my broodmare who has had 2 foals, is a pasture pet most of the time, but does ride. gets spoiled to death, etc. we had a special barn put up JUST so we could keep her for the rest of her life. after she drops the foal shes pregnant with now, she will retire from being a broodmare as well, and just relax.


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## lillie

hmm-- looks like someone has been editing her posts!! however, i am just glad that those paricular "training" methods which concerned me cant be found at this time. and dont tell me i made it up, because it is something that shocked me and i would never have thought of, and why would i, i dont know you from adam. .. but this will be my last post as to be honest, i am totally bored with the discussion, and in real life i would simply not bother to use my energy on people who i felt no connection with... in terms of methods ;anyone who cares about the wellbeing of thier horse will make up thier own mind. and of course, you, almagonN, are totally right, i have absolutely no knowledge or expertise behind me, and therefore should not express concern or questions. the fact that i have been involved with horses, professionally ( yes including racehorse training and breeding) and my own for at least 35 years, and that my horses have all lived until well into thier 30's with no health issues, whilst still light working into thier late 20s, is a negligible proof that i know anything at all, the fact that i have learnt from top people is no proof that i am entitled to express an opinion. so i am just going to leave it to you, you are THE expert- please use it wisely! ( oh, and thanks for the very nice welcome onto the driving area of this forum- its all yours again!


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## lillie

and just before i finally go- i forgot to add how do you get around the fact of OCD-- the condition whereby cartiledge that has not yet fully formed into bone, shatters and splinters apart? if that is not indictive of the foolishness of early training methods, i dont know what is, as weefoal has previously stated, the kneecaps are not yet fully formed at so young an age. but, i will leave it at that- no doubt you will comment, but as long as there is enough info here for people to make up there own minds in a sensible way, i'm happy.


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## mayfieldk

lillie can you please use logical statements, paragraphs, and correct grammar in your posts?

I can't understand the backwards statements for the life of me.

And for the record, please look up OCD in foals, for your logic and facts are completely incorrect. It is caused by genetic rapid growth or incorrect feeding. NOT by 'over working'. Please state your source or, like many of your arguments and 'facts', it's just been fabricated by you.

You also cannot edit your posts after a short period of time, so again... state your facts or your points are invalid and fabricated.


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## weefoal

I shouldnt even bother but this just about does me in. 

I have to ask out of curiousity is the horse in the picture a yearling standabred?? Sure doesnt look like it? But for sure I could be wrong.

And Jimmy your comment about putting the yearling in with the stallion?? Really??? 

Heres some info on OCD in horses. NO it is not caused only by feeding up.

You all refer to this horse as a "baby" yet see nothing wrong with doing this training. 

I will keep on letting my "babies" grow up and mature and keep looking at the big picture and not just whats in it for me 

Like Lillie I am done with this. Hopefully people will educate themselves on proper training methods and let their babies grow up and mature. 

*Reducing the risk of osteochondrosis (OCD)*

Genetic influences, overweight, prolonged inactivity/intense activity and improper shoeing are all believed to contribute towards the likelihood of developing osteochondrosis (OCD). 
*Genetic influences*
The tendency to develop osteochondrosis (OCD) is inherited, with larger, fast-growing breeds of horse being more likely to develop the condition. However, not all horses whose parents have osteochondrosis (OCD) will develop it themselves. 
*Dietary influences*
Excess intake of calories, phosphorous and calcium is believed to play a part in the onset of osteochondrosis (OCD) in susceptible horses. Slowing the rate of growth of large breeds of horses has been shown to reduce the incidence of osteochondrosis (OCD). Your veterinarian will be able to recommend the most appropriate diet for your breed. 
*Exercise*
osteochondrosis (OCD) develops as a consequence of defective transformation of cartilage into bone. *If a young horse overuses a joint affected by osteochondrosis (OCD), defective cartilage can separate from the bone to which it is attached. Separation of cartilage from bone causes pain and joint instability and initiates the development of secondary arthritis. (Many arthritic changes, such as bone spur formation, develop when the horse’s body attempts to stabilize the joint by adding "wedges” of bone.) By restricting the amount and intensity of the horse's exercise, osteochondrosis (OCD) is less likely to occur.*


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## AlmagroN

weefoal said:


> I have to ask out of curiousity is the horse in the picture a yearling standabred?? Sure doesnt look like it? But for sure I could be wrong.


yes she is a yearling standardbred. i dont know why you think she doesnt look like one... ??

and secondly, we call the horses babies until theyre about 3. same as when you call a filly a filly til shes considered a mare. and a colt until he is a stallion. its just what we say. that has nothing to do with training anyway....

and lillie- obviously you HAVE made it up. you can only edit posts 15minutes (i believe it is, it may be shorter) after the post is originally posted. so how the hell would i have edited posts from before??? explain that.....

and weefoal- you seem to have missed bolding a certain statement in that last post. you bolded everything about excercising a horse BUT you didnt bold the part that said 

"osteochondrosis (OCD) develops as a consequence of defective transformation of cartilage into bone"

you then bolded where it says that working a horse WITH THIS CONDITION ALREADY can cause all the other problems. and the work she is doing is NOT intense. its nothing over a very slow trot. most foals do way more work than that just running in a paddock.


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## jimmy

this is the best thread i,ve read wee foal and lillie i don,t agree with you but don,t give in do you think its 2 young t shoe a horse at 6mths


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## ShutUpJoe

weefoal: You just posted info that said that OCD was inherited and if inherited becomes a problem. Is there a way to test for it?


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## AlmagroN

jimmy said:


> this is the best thread i,ve read wee foal and lillie i don,t agree with you but don,t give in do you think its 2 young t shoe a horse at 6mths


do i think theyre too young to shoe at 6 months, yes. do i think theyre too young to have their feet trimmed up and rasped and picked out and handled, absolutely not. my filly was shod for the first time about 3 weeks ago. she was perfect BECAUSE she had had her feet handled, trimmed, and worked with before then.


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## jimmy

i thought that myself


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## lillie

well jimmy, it is a waste of time and energy trying to speak to people who think they know it all and wont even question thier methods. they actually have no proof or evidence to support anything they themselves have to say, are are clearly happy in thier own little world. almagonN -i definately read that post about your method, but i really dont care; the only reason i ever bothered to reply to any of this is so that others who have no experience would know there is a safer, better and kinder way, enough has been written now for them to make up thier own minds. and mayfieldk, if you dont like the layout of my posts, why bother to read them; they obviously have nothing in them that you dont disagree with anyway-- i am a busy working person and i only have time to do quick posts- i suggest you just ignore them , i 'm sure you do anyway. anyway, thats it, i'm through.


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## AlmagroN

i never posted that, and its obvious because you, nor i, nor anyone else can seem to find anything, anywhere where i have posted that.

and as far as everyone else knowing everything? take a look at yourself. get off your high horse- you seem to be the one who knows everything here....

and as far as proof or evidence, mine is in the many horses we have raced and retired, who never were complicated being broken as yearlings. but may i ask, where is YOUR proof or evidence?


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## iridehorses

This thread has gone down hill and nothing new to be learned - only arguments.


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