# Can horses on year-round pasture founder?



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

This is more of a hypothetical, since my horses are not on pasture year round, but I got to thinking about this as the grass is just starting to come up in my paddock. The horses pretty well have it beat into the ground, but there are bits and pieces of grass that somehow survive long enough to be edible. I have been hand-grazing them on our front lawn for a few minutes a day (literally, about 5 minutes), and I figure nibbling on the grass in the paddock as it's coming up cannot possibly induce laminitis or founder, but I wondered what happens to horses who live on large pastures year round. Do they just eat small amounts of grass as it grows, thus naturally acclimating themselves to eating green grass? Or are they at risk of foundering too?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

They are at risk. It's not the sudden change in diet that causes laminitis. 

Grass is different at various times of year and even at various times of the day. Grass stores sugars when the sun is shining, and uses the sugars up for growth after the sun goes down. So sugars are lowest just before the sun comes up, and the safest time to graze is early in the morning. But if it gets close to freezing in the night, the grass goes dormant and doesn't use the sugar so in that case, the grass still has high sugar in the morning if it was sunny the day before. 

In seasons when there is not much sun, the grass doesn't have as much sugar. With sunnier weather and longer days, the grass gets more dangerous regardless of whether horses have been on it all year or not.
Also many people assume shorter grass is safer, but shorter, browner grass exposed to sun is more stressed and stores more sugars so longer, greener grass is actually lower in sugar. 

But horses that don't have problems with insulin resistance are not at risk regardless of the season. So it's not a matter of adapting to grass, it's a matter of getting too much insulin release in response to high sugars, OR getting obese which is a pro inflammatory state which increases insulin resistance in cells and can push horses over the line into becoming insulin resistant. Grass is not bad for all horses, only for those that have the genetic predisposition for insulin resistance, or a disease/physical condition that causes insulin resistance. Pasture is actually very healthy for many horses, and they can eat many more pounds of it than hay without getting overweight because of the high water content.

For some horses having even a small amount of grass will raise their insulin too much and cause laminitis.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

The TWH we purchased last year foundered in all 4 feet and was on year round pasture. We had had a mild winter and a really warm spring - she and the 2 other horses she lived with were on pasture year round with very little to no hay. She foundered when the weather warmed up and the grass greened up very quickly. Our Vet (who treated her at the old owners) said she was laying on her side sweating in the field when the owner finally called. They had to beat her to get her to her feet and into a barn. The owner did not understand how being on pasture could hurt her and was unwilling to do anything special so she would not founder again - that is how we ended up with her. My horses are limited on the amount of pasture they get and I only let them out when the grass is lowest in sugars and they are extremely limited on the amount of time they are allowed on grass - especially in the spring and fall when grass is more stressed and more apt to lead to founder.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> but I wondered what happens to horses who live on large pastures year round. Do they just eat small amounts of grass as it grows, thus naturally acclimating themselves to eating green grass? Or are they at risk of foundering too?


Yes, horses that are on grass year-round can founder. 

Yes, sudden changes in a horses' diet can cause founder issues, but if a horse is prone to founder, they will (even if there has been no sudden change).


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There was a laminitis research article in Horse and Hound a few years ago that found that horses and ponies kept on grass 24/7 (especially breeds that seem to have a genetic predisposition) are more at risk of getting laminitis than those that have some form of management regime that controls how much grass they have access too - like stabling or dry lotting part of the 24 hours or using grazing muzzles or strip grazing.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Well that was enlightening! Thanks! Good to know. 

If I am reading correctly, some horses are predisposed to founder (IR or otherwise). But unless your horse has tested positive for IR, how would you know it's predisposed? I'm guessing you don't, generally, so it's best to be cautious with all horses. Even in breeds that aren't genetically predisposed, I'm guessing the risk is still present in some individual horses.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There are lists of genetically predisposed horses on several places if you Google it - I know it includes all the British native ponies/cobs and I think Morgans are also on it
It is a fact that you can keep two horses of different breed types in exactly the same grazing situation 24/7 and one will live all its life with no problems at all, even if it gets over weight, and the other will get diet related laminitis very quickly
Its such a horrible condition and IR is even worse so IMO not worth taking the risk


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

For reference Arabs are right at the top of the Predisposition list. Quarter Horses are not.

Morgan's and Tennessee Walkers are right up there, as well.

That said, I could have left my Arab out 24/7 if I'd wanted to. He didnt have any indications of metabolic issues.

It's the Walking Horses that blindsided me. Two of the three were diagnosed with metabolic issues, the third is also an easy keeper.

My remaining two are on limited pasture time. By that I mean they used to be out 12-16 hours daily. Since 2007, they are only allowed on pasture 7-10 hours daily. It costs me more in hay, shavings, and stall cleaning time.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yes, I knew about the Arab predisposition (probably from this forum, I don't remember), which was one of the reasons I had Harley tested (it was negative). He is 25% QH though, so hopefully that works in our favour. In any case, I have no intention of putting them on pasture year round, I was just curious. They are currently in the paddock/sacrifice area and I am hand-grazing on the lawn a few minutes, every few days or so. When the grass is high enough (it's just starting to green up now), I'll start putting them on it for small amounts of time, and work my way up. I still feel like Harley could become IR, because he does tend to put on weight easily if I'm not really careful. 

I'd also spend the extra $$$ on hay if it meant less risk of founder/IR. I appear to have bought too much hay anyway, because I still have tons, so I plan on using it. We're a good two weeks away from putting them on pasture, even for a few minutes at a time. Oh, and I bought a grazing muzzle for Harley in case he needs it. 

My neighbor's horse with laminitis in three legs isn't doing well, and they're very worried. It really scares me, but given that they knew it was IR, they could have done things differently. However, hindsight is always 20/20, which is why I ask so many questions.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

You got some good answers, particularly Gotta's(tho horses CAN founder because of sudden feed changes, including large quantities of particularly rich(sugary) grass. But that's more about what it is & how sensitive the horse - ie. you start the horse on only small amounts of spring pasture because it's rich & they might not cope with it, not because they will get used to it with time. Laminitis from 'sudden change' is more in relation to grain & such, that causes hind gut acidosis, particularly if the horse's system isn't gradually 'acclimatised').

Horses are built to be grazers! Just what they're not built for is large quantities of 'rich pickings' - 'improved' cattle fattening grass like rye & cereal or such, and these, I believe, should generally be limited/avoided, regardless of the health, IR status, genetic factors, etc, of the horse. Because ALL horses are 'at risk' of IR/laminitis etc, given the wrong circumstances. Pays to do your homework on that, as well as nutrition & hoof health generally. If you have a look at the thread link in my signature(if haven't already), there are some sources of good further info there. 

If the grass is mature, stemmy, low sugar(such as many native vars), they can (generally) eat as much as their heart desires. Even if rich, there is generally no need to limit their grass intake to only minutes a day, and unless they're severely IR or otherwise super sensitive. And that grass(who knows, 'lawn' may be richer) may be better for them than the grass coming up in their paddock, as explained, it depends on growth stage, how stressed etc as to how full of sugar it is. Yes, absolutely can sensitive horses get laminitis from grazing new growth.

One very relevant thing I didn't see mentioned in other responses, that many people(including some vets) don't understand is that grass only uses/loses it's sugars in active growth, not when it's dead/cut/dried. Therefore the hay you feed your horses may be just as rich, or richer than the grass you're so worried about! The big difference(aside from water content of course) between fresh, growing grass & older, dead grass or hay is the vitamin & essential fatty acid content - these are quickly lost with processing or death of the plant. If your hay isn't tested as low NSC, or you're not sure how high sugar it is, it may be necessary to soak & drain it in fresh water before feeding, to leach out some of the sugars.



> There was a laminitis research article in Horse and Hound a few years ago that found that horses and ponies kept on grass 24/7 (especially breeds that seem to have a genetic predisposition) are more at risk of getting laminitis than those that have some form of management regime that controls how much grass they have access too - like stabling or dry lotting part of the 24 hours or using grazing muzzles or strip grazing.


And yet, other studies have shown free access to grass/hay is far better for the metabolism than restrictive 'dieting', just like with people. And horses that are restricted will often 'overeat' when it is available, whereas horses on 24/7 grass/hay tend to just pick, rather than pig out. I suspect the crux is really in the content of the grass, more so than quantity/free rein. To be objective about it, I'd want to know if these studies were done on the same NSC value grass. And nutritional values, but that's another subject...



> But unless your horse has tested positive for IR, how would you know it's predisposed? I'm guessing you don't, generally, so it's best to be cautious with all horses. Even in breeds that aren't genetically predisposed, I'm guessing the risk is still present


Precisely! I don't even think it's that important to test for IR, to 'know' for sure. Firstly, there are generally indicators, such as long term 'easy keepers' or actual obesity, fat pads, etc. Secondly, ALL horses are 'at risk' & IMO *should* be treated as IR horses 'must' be, to stay/become healthy. Just the same as all people are 'at risk' of developing type 2 diabetes. Insulin resistance is the most common cause of laminitis(why it's associated so strongly with fat ponies & 'good paddocks'), and it is in essence, basically the same as 'type 2 diabetes' in people - it is a 'lifestyle disease', or rather, a natural metabolic response to 'too much' intake & not enough 'output'. It becomes a problematic natural response when it is chronic.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

loosie said:


> You got some good answers, particularly Gotta's(tho horses CAN founder because of sudden feed changes, including large quantities of particularly rich(sugary) grass. But that's more about what it is & how sensitive the horse - ie. you start the horse on only small amounts of spring pasture because it's rich & they might not cope with it, not because they will get used to it with time. Laminitis from 'sudden change' is more in relation to grain & such, that causes hind gut acidosis, particularly if the horse's system isn't gradually 'acclimatised').


Yes, I did say it wrong. What I meant was, people often seem to blame the problem mainly on the idea of the diet changing too quickly to grass, and most of us understand that quick diet changes can cause digestive upset or colic (which could bring about laminitis, true). But I wanted to point out that the sugar content of the grass and the horse's tolerance of such is most often the culprit rather than a colic or digestive problem.

So my point was, you could introduce an insulin resistant horse to a sugary pasture over six months, and in the end the horse would still get laminitis. The slowness of the change would never help the horse adapt or keep him safe.

Also you made a very important point that grass is not automatically safer than hay. And grass has vitamins and minerals the horse might be missing on an all hay diet.



loosie said:


> And yet, other studies have shown free access to grass/hay is far better for the metabolism than restrictive 'dieting', just like with people. And horses that are restricted will often 'overeat' when it is available, whereas horses on 24/7 grass/hay tend to just pick, rather than pig out. I suspect the crux is really in the content of the grass, more so than quantity/free rein. To be objective about it, I'd want to know if these studies were done on the same NSC value grass. And nutritional values, but that's another subject...


I also want to add my opinion that this is true for most horses, but there is another factor which is a hormone called leptin which normally suppresses horses' appetites when they gain weight. Some horses seem to have leptin resistance, so no natural appetite suppression. I believe also horses with Cushing's and high cortisol levels or other hormonal imbalances may not have a natural shut off and will eat rapidly and continuously when given the chance.

The nutritionist Getty believes that if you just feed horses free choice for long enough, this will decrease the appetite and they will stop overeating if they have been restricted in the past. I've read some studies on ponies, and also some responses people have written to Getty where they were desperate, their horses were eating from small hole hay nets, grazing muzzles, etc but were still 8 or 9/10 BSC when given feed 24/7. 

Some of these ponies were able to eat 3.5 to 4 percent of their body weight when given the chance to eat 24/7. That's probably going to make a horse overweight even on lower calorie feed.

So although I think it is ideal for horses to have access to 24/7 feed, if you have to choose between extreme obesity and some periods of the day without feed available, it might be a better choice. This is based on some people I know who have extremely obese horses even though they eat from small hole hay nets all night and wear grazing muzzles during the day on pasture. In my mind, they should cut back on the pounds of hay rather than feeding free choice, until the horses are at a better weight.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

I'd love to get into this last portion of the conversation, using my IR horse, whose insulin was so high in 2012 even the lab doing the blood work (Cornell) asked for a second vile to test, then asked my vet if he was still alive.

It goes without saying he foundered in a major way -- 30 years ago he might not have pulled thru; 20 years ago he might not have pulled thru or been left crippled at the least.

I have done his management backward from what has always been recommended and so far so good. I was also retired when he was first diagnosed; being home to monitor him I believe was and still is a crucial part of his management.

Except to say my horse was one of the worst cases of IR/founder, that is all I am going to say. I don't want to jinx things nor do I want someone who might be following along and only listens with "half an ear" to take what I do and run with it


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> The nutritionist Getty believes that if you just feed horses free choice for long enough, this will decrease the appetite and they will stop overeating if they have been restricted in the past. I've read some studies on ponies, and also some responses people have written to Getty where they were desperate, their horses were eating from small hole hay nets, grazing muzzles, etc but were still 8 or 9/10 BSC when given feed 24/7.
> 
> Some of these ponies were able to eat 3.5 to 4 percent of their body weight when given the chance to eat 24/7. That's probably going to make a horse overweight even on lower calorie feed.
> 
> So although I think it is ideal for horses to have access to 24/7 feed, if you have to choose between extreme obesity and some periods of the day without feed available, it might be a better choice. This is based on some people I know who have extremely obese horses even though they eat from small hole hay nets all night and wear grazing muzzles during the day on pasture. In my mind, they should cut back on the pounds of hay rather than feeding free choice, until the horses are at a better weight.


This. I'd love to give my horses free choice hay, but at 14.2 and 14.3 hh, both being relatively easy keepers (though Harley is even more so), I cannot. I not only use 1" hole haynets to drag out their feedings as long as possible, but there are also periods when they have no hay. Because if they were eating out of those haynets all day, they would still be obese. They eat 3 flakes in a 1" hole haynet in about 3 hours. If they had hay all the time, they would stop at some point, but not before they ate far more than they should. And they are not on grain either - just a handful of timothy hay cubes as a vehicle for their supplements.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

loosie said:


> Horses are built to be grazers! Just what they're not built for is large quantities of 'rich pickings' - 'improved' cattle fattening grass like rye & cereal or such, and these, I believe, should generally be limited/avoided, regardless of the health, IR status, genetic factors, etc, of the horse. Because ALL horses are 'at risk' of IR/laminitis etc, given the wrong circumstances. Pays to do your homework on that, as well as nutrition & hoof health generally. If you have a look at the thread link in my signature(if haven't already), there are some sources of good further info there.
> 
> If the grass is mature, stemmy, low sugar(such as many native vars), they can (generally) eat as much as their heart desires. Even if rich, there is generally no need to limit their grass intake to only minutes a day, and unless they're severely IR or otherwise super sensitive. And that grass(who knows, 'lawn' may be richer) may be better for them than the grass coming up in their paddock, as explained, it depends on growth stage, how stressed etc as to how full of sugar it is. Yes, absolutely can sensitive horses get laminitis from grazing new growth.
> 
> One very relevant thing I didn't see mentioned in other responses, that many people(including some vets) don't understand is that grass only uses/loses it's sugars in active growth, not when it's dead/cut/dried. Therefore the hay you feed your horses may be just as rich, or richer than the grass you're so worried about! The big difference(aside from water content of course) between fresh, growing grass & older, dead grass or hay is the vitamin & essential fatty acid content - these are quickly lost with processing or death of the plant. If your hay isn't tested as low NSC, or you're not sure how high sugar it is, it may be necessary to soak & drain it in fresh water before feeding, to leach out some of the sugars.


Ok, this leads me to another question. For starters, their hay has been tested and I do have full nutritional value which I'm happy to post here if it's helpful. But we are planning on adding another 2-3 acres of pasture this summer. We only had about 1.5 acres for two horses, and it's clearly not enough (we knew this going in, but also had a lot going on last summer as we were building the barn so we put off the new addition to year 2). By the end of the summer, there was very little grass left, so I had to pull them off pasture in September. Ideally, I'd keep them on until December or so (at which time the snow gets too deep to properly maintain fencing and ensure the safety of the horses). The new addition will be their late summer/fall pasture. Hubby has used this field in the past for trying out various crops. Most recently (two years ago), it has been planted in wheat and buckweat. We were going to remove the dead plants, plow it, and re-seed it with a pasture mix. Should we just leave it alone to grow up wild instead? We could just plow the dead plants under and let it grow up as a mixture of native species. There is usually a bit of stray timothy that grows up naturally in our fields (used to be a big farm), and there may be the odd wheat/buckweat plant. And we'd keep it mowed throughout the summer so it doesn't get too high. I'm now worried that if we seed it, it will be too rich. Thoughts?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

JUst got back form a short holiday,so will chime in. I stay off the internet, when on holidays.
Anyway, when pasture changes rapidly, you do have a sudden change in feed. 
There are many factors that affect a pasture, far as fluctuating NSC levels, unlike hay, where it stays stable far as NSC from the time it is harvested.
Thus, even in horses that are not IR, there are periods of time, when they can be at risk, just like people, that have no history of being diabetic, are never guaranteed that they will just get fat,, versus develope type 2 diabetis, which is on the rise, just like metabolic laminitis in hroses. Both humans in the first world countries, and horses, are in a higher body score condition, on average, and exercising less. Thus, a risk association is there, just like in smoking, many cancers, ect
In spring, grass has a low fiber content, and lots of sugar, which makes it one of the high risk periods, but certainly not the only one, and esp for a horse that is IR
Plants produce sugars during sunlight hours. THey then use that sugar in the night for growth.Thus, under 'normal' growing conditions, if you are going to turn IR horse out for some limited grazing, first thing in the morning is best, before that sugar builds again. IF turning out for the night, wait several hours AFTER the sun has gone down.
As grass matures, it has a higher fiber content, thus not so concentrated sugars.
If night time temps drop so that grass does not use those sugars to grow, and before akilling frost, that sugar just builds and builds, long as that grass is still not dead, right down to the roots, thus still making sugar. ONCE the grass is COMPLetely dead, it is safe to turn IR horses out for the winter.Brown grass does not produce sugar, and any in it is leached out with rain and snow
During droughts, again, the grass does not grow, but will still use photosynthesis. so again, a dangerous time fro IR horses
Type of grass matters. Many of our pastures are enriched for beef and milk production-then there is clover and other weeds that bloom, like thistles and dandelions.
There are horses that seem okay on grass, which is not limited, all year round and just get fat. Problem is, you never know which ones might finally be pushed over the edge


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> This. I'd love to give my horses free choice hay, but at 14.2 and 14.3 hh, both being relatively easy keepers (though Harley is even more so), I cannot. I not only use 1" hole haynets to drag out their feedings as long as possible, but there are also periods when they have no hay. Because if they were eating out of those haynets all day, they would still be obese. They eat 3 flakes in a 1" hole haynet in about 3 hours. If they had hay all the time, they would stop at some point, but not before they ate far more than they should. And they are not on grain either - just a handful of timothy hay cubes as a vehicle for their supplements.


So long as they aren't left to go hungry for more than a couple of hours at a time, it shouldn't be bad for them - eg feed little & often. Obviously, unless you get up over night to feed, you need to leave more to make it last though. Using a doubled (small holed)net is also an often effective measure.

Yes, as I've mentioned, 'improved' pastures, developed for fattening cattle are too rich. Add fertilising paddocks(esp with phosphates, which imbalance nutrition greatly, having an effect too), cutting hay at optimum growth stage... especially if the hay comes from a commercial hay grower, it's usually high sugar/calorie. Stuff advertised as 'good horse hay' is usually good cattle fattening feed. And also, like many 'junk foods' compared to many healthy foods, tastier, so horses are more inclined to over eat on it too. Re nutritional balance, that is a huge subject, but one relevant factor... the more high carb the diet, the more magnesium is used/required. Magnesium has been shown to have a major effect on insulin sensitivity & 'metabolic disorders'. There are many other factors that effect need for magnesium, and it is a mineral that is commonly deficient/imbalanced(often from too high Ca) in horse's(& our) diets, so learning about this & providing extra Mg, especially if your horses are on high NSC hay or such, is really important IME.

But if you can soak & drain rich stuff before feeding, or better yet, get low NSC hay, not only will it be far lower in carbs, but your horses won't be likely to pig out so much either. It was very hard to find native, low sugar hay even a handful of years back - hay sellers would look at you as if you were barmy when you said 'no, too rich', or you wanted very late cut hay or such. Particularly frustrating for someone like me, who didn't see my horses daily, let alone little & often, so when they did need hay, a netted round bale was the only real option... & watch them get fatter! 

But these days(here at least), it is finally getting through to many that this sort of pasture/hay is not great for horses, and there are more options of native hay, native seed to sew paddocks, hay sellers advertising 'low-cal' hay... and recently there is 'Teff grass', which is another good low-cal variety, I think from Africa, which has been found to be great for pasture/hay cutting.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> We were going to remove the dead plants, plow it, and re-seed it with a pasture mix. Should we just leave it alone to grow up wild instead?... And we'd keep it mowed throughout the summer so it doesn't get too high.


I imagine if you just let it 'grow up wild', it will come up with a lot of wheat, that having been sewn in the past. I'd suggest doing the first sentence above, and sewing with a low-cal native, or teff seed.

And no, DON'T mow it regularly & keep it short - that will cause it to be richer generally - let it grow, let it grow! Pref to become long, mature before putting the horses on it.

The other factor in all this is exercise - our domestic horses these days, in 'nice' big open paddocks, don't tend to get enough of it. And of course, the more calories consumed, the more exercise you need, or you will get fat. To a) motivate more exercise and b)reduce amount of pasture available, keeping horses on a track setup is a great option. Google 'paddock paradise' for more info & egs of that.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

loosie said:


> So long as they aren't left to go hungry for more than a couple of hours at a time, it shouldn't be bad for them - eg feed little & often. Obviously, unless you get up over night to feed, you need to leave more to make it last though. Using a doubled (small holed)net is also an often effective measure.
> 
> Yes, as I've mentioned, 'improved' pastures, developed for fattening cattle are too rich. Add fertilising paddocks(esp with phosphates, which imbalance nutrition greatly, having an effect too), cutting hay at optimum growth stage... especially if the hay comes from a commercial hay grower, it's usually high sugar/calorie. Stuff advertised as 'good horse hay' is usually good cattle fattening feed. And also, like many 'junk foods' compared to many healthy foods, tastier, so horses are more inclined to over eat on it too. Re nutritional balance, that is a huge subject, but one relevant factor... the more high carb the diet, the more magnesium is used/required. Magnesium has been shown to have a major effect on insulin sensitivity & 'metabolic disorders'. There are many other factors that effect need for magnesium, and it is a mineral that is commonly deficient/imbalanced(often from too high Ca) in horse's(& our) diets, so learning about this & providing extra Mg, especially if your horses are on high NSC hay or such, is really important IME.
> 
> ...


Yeah, it's unlikely we'll have that kind of selection of either hay, or pasture seed. 

I asked my trimmer, who knows a lot about equine nutrition, whether she thought I should seed the new area of the pasture or let it grow up wild. She suggested I seed it a little (but only use about 1/4 of the recommended seeds) to get a combination of wild and planted grasses. Living in the same area as me, she knows all too well that we don't have much of a selection of hay or grass seed in this area. However, I will look around to see what is available and hopefully, in consultation with her, pick the least sugary/starchy mix. 

As for feeding from slow-feeder haynets, I don't see how I could possibly make sure they don't go without food for more than two hours a day. Even double bagged, with 1" holes, the hay in my haynet will not last more than 5 hours. I feed at 9 pm, so they would run out around 2 am. I feed again at 7. But the same thing happens during the day. I give them 2 flakes at 8 am. They're cleaned out by 11 or so. I feed again around 4 (one flake). They eat that in about an hour. Get fed hay cubes around 7, then more hay at 9. That's about 5 flakes a day, or half a bale or so, not counting the haycubes they get in between hay feedings. If I feed more than half a bale of hay a day, they get fat (especially Harley, I do give an extra flake or so to Kodak at night). I already go out to the barn 4-5 times a day. I can do that because they live in my backyard. I can't be out every two hours, and even if I could, I can't feed more hay than I'm feeding now!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

loosie said:


> I imagine if you just let it 'grow up wild', it will come up with a lot of wheat, that having been sewn in the past. I'd suggest doing the first sentence above, and sewing with a low-cal native, or teff seed.
> 
> And no, DON'T mow it regularly & keep it short - that will cause it to be richer generally - let it grow, let it grow! Pref to become long, mature before putting the horses on it.
> 
> The other factor in all this is exercise - our domestic horses these days, in 'nice' big open paddocks, don't tend to get enough of it. And of course, the more calories consumed, the more exercise you need, or you will get fat. To a) motivate more exercise and b)reduce amount of pasture available, keeping horses on a track setup is a great option. Google 'paddock paradise' for more info & egs of that.


Yup, familiar with paddock paradise, and planning on doing our own version of that. 

So when you say let it grow to maturity, do you mean like belly deep? Since our plan is not to use the new pasture until late summer, it will get very tall by then. Wouldn't you at least bush hog it (which is what I meant by mow, really)?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> As for feeding from slow-feeder haynets, I don't see how I could possibly make sure they don't go without food for more than two hours a day. Even double bagged, with 1" holes, the hay in my haynet will not last more than 5 hours. I feed at 9 pm, so they would run out around 2 am. I feed again at 7. But the same thing happens during the day. I give them 2 flakes at 8 am...
> ...They're cleaned out by 11 or so.I can't be out every two hours, and even if I could, I can't feed more hay than I'm feeding now!


Yes, that's what I mean about having to prioritize the horses being fat versus having food all the time. It's just different feeding hay than it is from the natural, feral lifestyle where the grass is sparse and the horse has to search for every bite. 

It used to bother me quite a bit that my Cushing's mare couldn't have feed 24/7. But in studies horses left to their own devices will graze for about 17 hours per day. They would probably eat more frequently than some of us can feed them, but they do have loafing times where they are not always eating. So it's not entirely unnatural for them to have an empty stomach for short periods. 

Some people say that horses are never supposed to have an empty stomach, but they will travel for a time without stopping, or just stand around for a couple hours, so it seems to me they would digest the food in their stomach during those times and be empty.

With my mare, I fed her in a small hole hay net and she was able to get her entire ration out within two hours at night. I'd gone to the smallest holes after using a larger one for awhile since she still ate so fast. I noticed it stressed her out even though I'd used it for several years, and she'd swish her tail and stomp with every bite. She would pull and chew so fast it didn't seem good for her. So I went back to just spreading her hay out and letting her browse through it, and she slowed down her eating rate so she eats it in the same amount of time she did when it was in a slow feeder. So they don't work for every horse.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

@gottatrot Exactly! It doesn't matter how hard I make it, Harley will go after that hay until it is all gone. I did start using two haynets. One is a 1" hole, and the other is a double bagged, webbed 1" holes. He will eat out of the single hung haynet until it's gone, then take a break for a while (I know this because I had cameras on his stall to keep track of his coughing - not obsessed or anything), then eventually start to work away at the other haynet. It did spread things out a little more, but again, the hay did not last more than 3-5 hours on any given night. He never gave signs of being frustrated, in fact, I think it kept him busy, but we weren't really ahead of the game in the sense that he would still go for about 5 hours without eating once everything was gone.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> However, I will look around to see what is available and hopefully, in consultation with her, pick the least sugary/starchy mix.


 It may be expensive - will def be compared to local - but as you won't need to seed every year - perhaps for a couple, but if well managed, it will then self seed... worth considering buying it in from further afield.


> As for feeding from slow-feeder haynets, I don't see how I could possibly make sure they don't go without food for more than two hours a day.


 So you need to soak/drain before feeding, if it's rich.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

loosie said:


> So you need to soak/drain before feeding, if it's rich.


So, I've had a debate about this with a friend. From everything I've read, soaking the hay will get rid of the sugars if you soak it for about an hour or so. But it doesn't significantly lower the calories. If you soak it for twelve hours, yes, it will lower the calories but it also gets rid of most of the digestible parts and some essential vitamins and minerals. 

My friend said, But sugars are calories. But if you notice what percentage of the hay is sugar, you're only removing about 30 calories or so. 

This friend had some issues with soaked hay: her laminitic horse was getting hay soaked overnight, and started getting emaciated although being fed free choice. So basically she was soaking long enough to remove all the nutrients. So then she started soaking only an hour, and still fed free choice, and eventually the horse gained all the weight back and became obese. 

At that point she still believed it was a sugar problem, and bought low NSC hay and fed it free choice in small hole nets. But the horse still got too many calories and was still obese. 
This is now about the third year into the experiment, and she's finally decided she had to limit the hay at night because the horse was still obese. The horse is finally losing weight. 

I see it as two different issues: calories/energy and sugar. You can limit one, or the other, or both. But limiting one is not necessarily limiting the other.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> So when you say let it grow to maturity, do you mean like belly deep? Since our plan is not to use the new pasture until late summer, it will get very tall by then. Wouldn't you at least bush hog it (which is what I meant by mow, really)?


 Yes, it will be less sugar & more fibrous when mature. Don't know what 'bush hog' means... except as a derogatory term for rather... feral girls...


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

loosie said:


> Yes, it will be less sugar & more fibrous when mature. Don't know what 'bush hog' means... except as a derogatory term for rather... feral girls...


Haha.... it is a farming implement commonly used here. Essentially, a way to keep the field from getting overgrown without using a lawn tractor. It cuts higher up than a tractor. Farmers often use it on fields that they are allowing to grow fallow (wild), but in which they don't want trees or bushes to grow. It is done once or twice over the summer, to keep things from getting too out of control. 

As I understand it, if you let grass grow up too high, it will go to seed, which the horses will then eat. I got the impression that it was better, at least for hay, if the grasses hadn't fully formed their seed pods.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

loosie said:


> It may be expensive - will def be compared to local - but as you won't need to seed every year - perhaps for a couple, but if well managed, it will then self seed... worth considering buying it in from further afield. So you need to soak/drain before feeding, if it's rich.


It's not particularly rich. Well, I didn't think so anyway (see analysis below - NSC is around 14%). As far as getting seed elsewhere, that may be difficult because of shipping weight and the fact that I live rather far from any large cities. I don't mind paying more, but sometimes shipping is prohibitive so I'd rather buy local. I'd also prefer to plant native as much as possible. 

Here is my hay analysis : 

DRY MATTER

Moisture 13.25 0.00 % Wet Chemistry
Dry Matter 86.75 100.00 % Calculation

PROTEIN
Crude Protein 6.60 7.61 % Wet Chemistry
Soluble Crude Protein 20.11 20.11 % of CP Wet Chemistry
ADF-CP 0.96 1.11 % Wet Chemistry
UIP ( Bypass Protein) 39.94 39.94 Est % CP Wet Chemistry

FIBRES
Acid Detergent Fibre 34.12 39.33 % Wet Chemistry
Neutral Detergent Fibre 55.87 64.40 % Wet Chemistry
Total Digestible Nutrients 50.54 58.26 % Calculation

MINERALS
Calcium 0.28 0.32 % Wet Chemistry
Copper 3.25 3.75 ug/g Wet Chemistry
Phosphorus 0.13 0.15 % Wet Chemistry
Potassium 1.04 1.20 % Wet Chemistry
Sulphur 0.07 0.08 % Wet Chemistry
Magnesium 0.10 0.11 % Wet Chemistry
Zinc 15.18 17.50 ug/g Wet Chemistry
Iron 41.38 47.70 ug/g Wet Chemistry
Manganese 19.48 22.45 ug/g Wet Chemistry
Sodium 0.01 0.01 % Wet Chemistry

CALCULATION
NSC 11.84 13.65 %
NFC 14.31 16.49 % Calculation
Relative Feed Value 84.15 84.15 Calculation

OTHER
Starch 1.89 2.18 % Wet Chemistry
Equine Digestible Energy 2 1.88 MCal/Kg Calculation
Sugar & Starch (total) 12 13.65 % Wet Chemistry
Total Sugar 10.0 11.47 % Wet Chemistry


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

gottatrot said:


> It used to bother me quite a bit that my Cushing's mare couldn't have feed 24/7. But in studies horses left to their own devices will graze for about 17 hours per day.


 Yep, agree with your post - it is often about 'balancing acts' & compromises in real life.(can't 'like' or use paragraphs or such again - hope HF fixes it soon) And of course no animal(that I know at least - maybe bacteria...) eats constantly 24/7, and I'm sure they CAN cope with an empty stomach(tho I'm pretty sure I've occasionally said otherwise, to illustrate a point) - since their digestion is relatively quick, food doesn't stay in the stomach for longer than around 45 mins max, it would mean they couldn't sleep for longer than that, for a start. But horses DO eat during the night, don't sleep for long blocks of time, and 'eating 17 hrs a day' doesn't mean the remaining 7 is in one big block.


> I noticed it stressed her out even though I'd used it for several years, and she'd swish her tail and stomp with every bite. She would pull and chew so fast it didn't seem good for her. So I went back to just spreading her hay out and letting her browse through it, and she slowed down her eating rate so she eats it in the same amount of time she did when it was in a slow feeder. So they don't work for every horse.


Could the great frustration have been related more to remaining ulcers or such? But whatever, if you can spread hay well enough & that works, great - agree it's a better option if you can.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah, that analysis looks like NSC is not particularly high. Yes, I meant to mention the seedheads... that depends on type, but generally you're correct - mature, as in after seeds have dispersed. Or else just before they develop. And that's the best time to cut hay too, for 'low GI'. Although after seeds have fallen, plants are also lower in vitamins & higher in indigestible fibre... it's a big subject with lots of 'ifs & buts'!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> Yeah, it's unlikely we'll have that kind of selection of either hay, or pasture seed.
> 
> I asked my trimmer, who knows a lot about equine nutrition, whether she thought I should seed the new area of the pasture or let it grow up wild. She suggested I seed it a little (but only use about 1/4 of the recommended seeds) to get a combination of wild and planted grasses. Living in the same area as me, she knows all too well that we don't have much of a selection of hay or grass seed in this area. However, I will look around to see what is available and hopefully, in consultation with her, pick the least sugary/starchy mix.
> 
> As for feeding from slow-feeder haynets, I don't see how I could possibly make sure they don't go without food for more than two hours a day. Even double bagged, with 1" holes, the hay in my haynet will not last more than 5 hours. I feed at 9 pm, so they would run out around 2 am. I feed again at 7. But the same thing happens during the day. I give them 2 flakes at 8 am. They're cleaned out by 11 or so. I feed again around 4 (one flake). They eat that in about an hour. Get fed hay cubes around 7, then more hay at 9. That's about 5 flakes a day, or half a bale or so, not counting the haycubes they get in between hay feedings. If I feed more than half a bale of hay a day, they get fat (especially Harley, I do give an extra flake or so to Kodak at night). I already go out to the barn 4-5 times a day. I can do that because they live in my backyard. I can't be out every two hours, and even if I could, I can't feed more hay than I'm feeding now!


The slow feeder nets I use, are the size that is designed to hold an entire square bale.I just stuff it full of loose hay off of the round bale. Horses don't need to eat constantly, just not left on empty for too long . Horses also learn to self regulate, if they don't fear being left without food for extended periods. In fact, it is the feeding of three meals or less a day, that has a horse start to gorge on food-same as us, when we go to a dinner, esp a buffet, on empty!
I had the person who looks after our place, when we are gone, to feed Smilie and Charlie 4 meals a day, as I decided to lock Smilie up, while we were gone, knowing a warm day or so could really make that grass shoot up, even though only afew brave green blades were poking up when we left
Charlie had to stay in also, as I did not want anyone else to be turning her 
in and out, deciding how long she should stay out, based on pasture conditions.
Now that I am back, Charlie got to spend part of the day out, and Smilie got to go out with agrazing muzzle also. Still not that much grass, but I have learned to err on the side of caution!
Tonight< i will hang up their slow feeder nets again, for the first time since last fall.
I'm, off to try the latest tricks I have learned about, far as keeping a grazing muzzle on an escape artist, before turning Carmen out for the night again. She was out full time while I was gone,, but now time to get back on that diet tract, far as grass
Rubix, hubby's gelding, is able to stay out full time, just by managing grazing area with portable electric fencing. You get to know each horse's limitations, and feed the and manage them as individuals, based on that fact1


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

gottatrot said:


> So, I've had a debate about this with a friend. From everything I've read, soaking the hay will get rid of the sugars if you soak it for about an hour or so. But it doesn't significantly lower the calories. If you soak it for twelve hours, yes, it will lower the calories but it also gets rid of most of the digestible parts and some essential vitamins and minerals.
> 
> My friend said, But sugars are calories. But if you notice what percentage of the hay is sugar, you're only removing about 30 calories or so.
> 
> ...


Total NSC includes the sugar and starch . Calories are either hot or cool.
Hot calories come from sugars and starch, cool calories from fats
Calories = energy, and it is the hot calories from sugar and starch, that are the problem
This fact is also why many senior feeds, have calories (energy= Mainly sources from fats, as many of those older horses need the calories, but can't have a lot of hot calories, due to some metabolic condition.
You can limit HOt calories, and derive most of that energy from cool calories
I think you are confusing what energy is, far as feed.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> Horses also learn to self regulate, if they don't fear being left without food for extended periods. In fact, it is the feeding of three meals or less a day, that has a horse start to gorge on food-same as us


 Yes, agree with this *generally* and 'feast or famine' type feeding - even if 'famines' only last part of a day - also effects the metabolism, causing the body to 'hoard' more calories from the food than it otherwise might. But same as us, it ain't necessarily so, that a horse will 'self regulate' appropriately. If I were in a world with free choice chocolates for eg, I'm sure I'd over eat chocolate! Whereas a world of free choice salads(I do love salads, but...) I'd likely 'self regulate' very well. And of course, the sugar/calorie content of the food of course has a bearing as to what *healthy* 'self regulation' would be.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Smilie said:


> The slow feeder nets I use, are the size that is designed to hold an entire square bale.I just stuff it full of loose hay off of the round bale. Horses don't need to eat constantly, just not left on empty for too long . Horses also learn to self regulate, if they don't fear being left without food for extended periods. In fact, it is the feeding of three meals or less a day, that has a horse start to gorge on food-same as us, when we go to a dinner, esp a buffet, on empty!
> I had the person who looks after our place, when we are gone, to feed Smilie and Charlie 4 meals a day, as I decided to lock Smilie up, while we were gone, knowing a warm day or so could really make that grass shoot up, even though only afew brave green blades were poking up when we left


Not all horses will self-regulate, even on low-cal hay, for which I have provided the analysis above. I also have haynets that can hold a full bale. I put one out thinking it would last a day. It lasted a few hours. 

Sure, you might say it's because Harley is hungry that he eats everything in sight. Yet his weight is still slightly over what I'd like it to be. And sure, I could try leaving out free choice hay for the next two months to see if he would eventually stop thinking he's starving all the time. But by then, I'd have an obese, foundered horse. 

Think of ponies and minis. They cannot be fed free choice, for the most part. Harley is a mature (18) horse that is almost a pony at 14.2. I have to treat him the same way or he will be huge.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

loosie said:


> Yes, agree with this *generally* and 'feast or famine' type feeding - even if 'famines' only last part of a day - also effects the metabolism, causing the body to 'hoard' more calories from the food than it otherwise might. But same as us, it ain't necessarily so, that a horse will 'self regulate' appropriately. If I were in a world with free choice chocolates for eg, I'm sure I'd over eat chocolate! Whereas a world of free choice salads(I do love salads, but...) I'd likely 'self regulate' very well. And of course, the sugar/calorie content of the food of course has a bearing as to what *healthy* 'self regulation' would be.


But comparing the dietary choices of a horse to the dietary choices of humans isn't really fair. We have a very broad selection of foods to choose from so we've become more picky. Horses have hay, grass, and sometimes grain. Mine live exclusively on low NSC hay from October to May. You could compare this to the salad in your analogy. Yet Harley still gets fat. Because he likes to eat and ALWAYS thinks he is starving, even when he's full. Like some people who seem to be able to eat non-stop at those all-you-can-eat buffets.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Prolonged soaking of hay, removes more then the simple sugars and starch, and those are what cause that insulin response. By soaking for prolonged periods, as in over night even, you are then mainly feeding a filler.
Thus, by soaking hay for an hour or so, you remove mostly just those carbohydrates responsible for that glycemic index spike


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Smilie said:


> By soaking for prolonged periods, as in over night even, you are then mainly feeding a filler.
> Thus, by soaking hay for an hour or so, you remove mostly just those carbohydrates responsible for that glycemic index spike


Right, and it becomes nutritionally like feeding straw, which even fed free choice can lead to malnutrition as my friend found out.

We're talking about two different things here: trying not have an overweight horse versus feeding a horse with insulin resistance. Some horses just overeat, even on low sugar/starch diets. My little mare (we're talking about the one that doesn't have ulcers and is not thin) will eat continuously. She's been on a low NSC diet for many years including her hay, with no grain. She gets her vitamins in a half pound of beet pulp or less. 

We have 110 lb hay bales, and one night someone left the gate open to where a bale was in the chute and she did her best to consume the entire thing overnight. There was a little left. She also once got into a grain room and ate 25 lbs of grain but thankfully didn't get laminitis or colic. 
She's not the one with any ulcer issues, I don't think her stomach has ever bothered her in her life, so I can't blame her angst at the hay net on discomfort. 
SO I limit her intake. :grin:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Acadianartist said:


> But comparing the dietary choices of a horse to the dietary choices of humans isn't really fair. We have a very broad selection of foods to choose from so we've become more picky. Horses have hay, grass, and sometimes grain. Mine live exclusively on low NSC hay from October to May. You could compare this to the salad in your analogy. Yet Harley still gets fat. Because he likes to eat and ALWAYS thinks he is starving, even when he's full. Like some people who seem to be able to eat non-stop at those all-you-can-eat buffets.


Perhaps it was a bad eg of mine, because your first statement above isn't relevant, you miss the point I think. (Or necessarily right. I for one, am not at all picky about food, and I, being 'middle class' in a western country, have huge options. ;-) ) My point is, while if what I had on offer was chocolate(or other 'high octane' and very tasty options), then I would not only be inclined to eat more than I really needed(very little, if any), but it is so yummy to me, I might also eat more even though I'm full. Whereas in a world of(low carb) salad, I could eat vastly larger quantities, without it being too much for me.

There is also the factor of 'input' not exceeding 'output' if you don't want to gain weight, and a huge problem with so many horses(& people) these days is that they're largely sedentary animals, kept in small, often boring, but 'cushy' environments with abundant food. So they also require far less carbs than an animal that's in hard work or otherwise doing substantial exercise.

So... as horses, unlike people, need to 'trickle feed' - have food *relatively* constantly, we can't just consider the overall amount that we feed, if that means they either get fat or go hungry for long periods. Therefore, while your hay is not among the richest variety, if that is what happens in your situation, it's obviously too rich *for your horses/situation* & either the horses need to have lower carb feed(soak & drain first if no alternative), OR you need to increase their exercise levels, to burn more.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I try to avoid the need to soak hay, by having a hay that is well in the acceptable range, far NSC. I do water my hay, but that is for an entirely different reason. 
I use it just as an insurance that the horse is taking in enough moisture, on a straight hay diet, versus pasture. I am also anal about preventing COPD, so even with hay that does not look dusty, I water it
Today, I put Smilie and Charlie both out for most of the day, after they had their morning hay and beet pulp-but with grazing muzzles, even though the grass is just coming up. People driving by, probably think I'm nuts, but both get some 'recreational' grazing, walking a large pasture. I could leave the muzzle off of Charlie, but since she lives with Smilie, thus has free choice hay while in the corral, I found that practice had her get too heavy last year.
Besides, ' misery' loves company', so Smilie won't feel so hard done by.
As for Carmen, that witch, she managed to foil me again, with my latest method of trying to prevent her from removing her muzzle over night. She is thus confined to the corral, and I have to figure out how to manage her turnout time
Meanwhile, I have about 70 acres of pasture, with only Rubix out full time, although confined to a smaller area with a portable electric fence.
Guess I have to look into either boarding some horses, or beefing up the back pasture for cattle, as the long dead grass from last year, never grazed, is afire hazard, if not a down right waste!
Hey, I could start raising horses again, fill those fields with broodmares and young growing horses once more. Oh to be young or at least, \younger', LOL!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> Right, and it becomes nutritionally like feeding straw, which even fed free choice can lead to malnutrition as my friend found out.
> 
> We're talking about two different things here: trying not have an overweight horse versus feeding a horse with insulin resistance. Some horses just overeat, even on low sugar/starch diets. My little mare (we're talking about the one that doesn't have ulcers and is not thin) will eat continuously. She's been on a low NSC diet for many years including her hay, with no grain. She gets her vitamins in a half pound of beet pulp or less.
> 
> ...


Yup, sounds like Harley! Not IR, but a bottomloss pit of a stomach! 

I give each about half a bale of hay (about 30 lbs) and 100 g (dry) of hay cubes. And yes, I weigh them every time. Harley is beginning to look a little better from being ridden a little more. In the winter months, he stays as still as he possibly can. Hates the cold, snow, etc. so he does not expend any energy. That doesn't help. He's far more active when he's on pasture, which is a big part of the reason I want to add to my pasture to keep the horses on it as long as possible. The old and new pastures will be connected by a funnel that goes through the woods, across a brook, up and down banks, etc. so there will be some more challenging terrain involved too. I think it will be really good for them!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Smilie said:


> Guess I have to look into either boarding some horses, or beefing up the back pasture for cattle, as the long dead grass from last year, never grazed, is afire hazard, if not a down right waste!


Dreaming... what I would do would be to fence in a track system, so the horses on turnout have far more motivation for exercise & far less pasture available, if they don't need it, and cut (low carb, not for beef) hay off the unused portion.


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