# My horse is a total nutcase and I don't know what to do...



## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I know you are frustrated and angry but escalating this further to the point of physical abuse wont help at all. When does one cross the line from trainer and become a bully? I urge you to look up on youtube a trainer called Warwick Schiller. He has tons of free material which will help you get into her mind. He has a whole series and charges something like $30 a month? You can watch the whole training series in a week. You can surely afford that. You nor I can never physically force a horse to do anything it doesn't want to do. I am an exotic animal trainer and trained/worked with a huge variety of animals. Between time pressures, desensitisation and specific shots required you quickly learn there is more than one way to train an animal and trust me - resorting to physical restraint and assault never works out. There is sitting a buck and pushing through however your post leads me to believe that as a result of inexperience you and your friends have only tried ONE method of training and that is "if she doesn't do what I want I will punish her. If she resists I will punish her even more". I trained bomb detection dogs. If they missed a scent should I just beat them? OFC not. One colleague did once and that young dog was put off by that one incident it couldn't walk into the practice room anymore and had to be retired. 

Think about it. You go see her. You put a big bit in her mouth. Your heart is racing and you're pumped and ready for a fight (you actually see her EXPECTING a fight so duh... you're gonna get one.) You get on and bait her into misbehaving and go ham. What does she learn? That you will randomly turn up, get on and cause even more pain. I think some horses need a good rider to sit a buck or a rear but usually it's JUST sitting the buck and the rear, NOT accompanied by IMO torture as you suggest (spurring and jerking her mouth). You can sit a buck and she can learn futility in a bitless bridle even (not suggesting that though). It takes a special person to get on calmly and ride a horse out without getting emotional invested. Riding and training animals when angry is a BAD idea. Best case scenario things dont work out... worst case someone gets hurt.

Imagine you are a parent of a troubled child. Have you given your mare a voice and asked her whats wrong? Not assume but actually see what she is telling you. Is she afraid of you? Is she in pain? Has she shut down and given up because in her mind every interaction with you is miserable, that nothing she does is good enough. Why should she let someone like you on her back? Why should she run circles? Every session ends in one or both of you upset. Has she got low confidence? (Think about it.. some of the most destructive people are some of the most insecure). When my mare used to get upset she would run to the gate and weave "get me out of here!". It was a cry for help. Not her being stubborn. Make sure you truly are knowing the difference. 

You can be scared of someone and at the same time not respect them. Almost all horses need a leader... a fair one. But some horses _also_ need kindness. Some need patience. Some need space. Some need a *friend*. Right now what _human_ is helping build her confidence and trust? I don't mean demanding X and her obeying. I mean doing fun little things (like liberty say) and building a relationship. Giving a carrot and asking nothing. Smiling and laughing. Or is it just resentment, frowns and tedium? You want her to do as you ask and behave. She might just want you to back off. But *WHY*? That's the important question. WHY doesn't she want to even be in your company at all to the point you can't even lunge her much less ride?

Really look into pain first but I think what is also broken is your relationship. It's toxic. You cannot expect her to be anything more or less than a horse. Of course you want obedience and you've learned that your way, your friends way and punishment doesn't work with you mare. Now try a new method. What about clicker training? Instead of "DONT DO THAT!" change it to "YES THIS IS IT!". See if maybe it works better for her. Stop going in expecting a fight. Starting going in "lets see what we can learn today and have fun". Speaking of pressure make sure your pressure isn't the equivalent of a hurricane. Maybe all she needs is a whisper. My mare gets offended if I go over the top "listen lady do I look stupid?! Why you shouting at me?!". When your mare fails you DON'T get angry. You just say "that's ok, we didn't get it right this time but lets try again.". You have to be calm. It takes so much fortitude to be calm in the face of failure and frustration. 

Take a deep breath. You and she haven't been very good to each other. You need to be safe and protect yourself but remember - you should also be friends. Friends can forgive and forget. You are in it together. Heard of the marriage saying "it's us vs the problem" not "me vs you". What is the problem? How can you help her help you through it? Tomorrow is a new day and in the new light you can try again. "I'm sorry I shouted at you. I'm just frustrated. I promise to listen more." Full reset. Don't ask for a mile. Ask for a millimetre. If she gives it ... praise the heck out of her and end it there. Arrive with a smile on your face. You are HAPPY to see her and thus she will be happy to see you. 

Work on being firm and fair. Work on building that relationship. As for riding... I think you should hold off on that until you fix the ground work and definitely investigate other causes such as pain. Do look up warwick schiller and liberty series.


edit: I have an irish draught that I free lunge in a rectangular school. With just the angle of my body and my pointed arm she lunges a perfect circle around me and changes direction. It took a year of regular relationship building, trick training (liberty) to develop the LANGUAGE we can now communicate with each other in. She also can get excited go for a run and a buck. I've witnessed several hot horses have their batcrap 5 minutes on the lunge. My girl sometimes wants to gallop off during our handwalks and she's 650kg. She knows she can run whenever she wants but chooses to stay by my side even through all that excitement. It takes so much self control but she had to learn that over time. Only once she got away and stopped about 10 meters away. I didn't react or go after her. I calmly went over and picked up the rope. No big deal. In the arena when she would break the circle in the beginning I would just calmly herd her back to my end. If I had a line I'd just pick it up and go again no big deal, no frustration. 


You can learn another way. You care so you can.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

You cannot pick a fight with a horse and win. What was the point of adding a harsh bit and using 2 whips? If the horse is already excited, this will only add to their energy levels. 



Horses get excited on the lunge line, they run around, buck and act up. If they can break away from you, they will. This is why it is a good idea to lunge the horse in a round pen. If the horse is acting up on the lunge, remove the line, put them in a round pen and allow them to run around and expend some energy. Once they get tired, ask for a calm trot or trot walk transitions. My goal in lunging a horse is to calm them down, not hype them up. 



For example, I recently broke my foot. My mare has had several weeks off, as I'm still on crutches. I decided to lunge her yesterday, while hobbling on crutches. Put her in the roundpen, and she takes off bucking and leaping. It's slightly drizzly and cold out, so she feels great. I stand there quietly and wait for her to come back to earth. Once she settles down, I ask for a consistent trot and maintain that trot, switch directions, and maintain the trot going to other way. I did not want her galloping out of control. Just a nice calm trot in both directions. Once she seemed like she settled down, I saddled up for a quiet ride around the property. 



With a horse that is overly excited, you need to calm your body language down. If you get aggressive with the whip, you will get an out of control horse. If the horse decides to gallop around and act silly, I put the whip down, and stand there quietly. The more aggressive you get, the more the horse will act up. If you come unglued, the horse will only act worse. The biggest part in training the horse is in controlling yourself and your behavior. 



My mare has plenty of energy and she is responsive enough I can pretty much just stand in the center with the whip, and cue her off voice commands- otherwise it would be pretty difficult to lunge her while on crutches. I can't exactly hop a circle right now. 



If you do not have a roundpen you can make one using an electric fence. Make sure you train her to respect the electric fence- if she runs through wire fences, I would run electric using a corner of the existing fenceline. Use polytape of something highly visible. 



I do not think your horse is mean in any way. She is a horse with high energy levels that needs an outlet for that energy. If you are not riding on a consistent basis, then it is understandable that she is going to buck and kick. IF she is bolting off, then she is anxious about something- you cannot get rough with a horse that is anxious because it only reinforces the anxiety. 



She will probably act the same way the next time you lunge her because she will remember the prior bad experience. Even if you have to build a roundpen or find a friend with a roundpen, I suggest you start there. Once she learns to behave in a roundpen, then you can add a lunge line. Part of this is on you for not knowing how to react to an out of control horse. 



Many horses are very sensitive and will react to aggression, with an increased flight response- hence galloping around and dragging you all over the place. You have to learn to work with her and not fight her. When I start a horse on the lunge, I want a quiet walk in a circle. IF they can consistently walk in a circle, then you can add trot. 



The problem is many people think they should just run the horse on the lunge line. I want my horse to relax and behave, not gallop with his brains falling out. Try walking a circle on the lunge. Even if you need to stand in the center with the lunge line on, and have your friend lead the horse in circles around you. Work on walk- whoa. Use the word whoa and the person in the center can give treats. It should get the horse to start looking at you in the center (and anticipating that whoa and cookie for good behavior).


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

I have a wildcard bucker, as well. West Taylor''s methods have been miraculous for us!


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@Kalraii and @4horses covered it all. 

If you attempt to beat this horse into submission, one or both of you will get hurt. Since she weighs a lot more, I'm betting you will get hurt more than she will. 

The horse, when you got her, was good and ridable, but since you have had her, she has gotten worse and unmanageable. 

What do you think is the cause? 

A little empathy and kindness goes a long way.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I don’t have any training advice but a practical idea. Can you use jumps to section off one corner of the arena for lunging? You don’t have to fully enclose it, just place two jumps strategically, in spots where it would be natural for her to start pulling.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

The fact that you're even considering belting this horse into oblivion concerns me greatly. You will be _killed_ doing that. Your horse will take the blame and someone will put her down because she killed you. Never mind that that outcome would be completely, entirely, undeniably _your fault_ - the horse pays the price all too often.

You need to reassess your entire attitude regarding horses. Not just this one but _all of them_. 

WHY is she playing up? What does she gain? WHY does she want to gain it? 

If she was good to start with and her behaviour has worsened, _why_? I can answer that one: something you are doing or not doing has given her a reason to believe that you are not worth following. So ask yourself what happened. Why does she not want to follow you anymore? Have you been too soft? Too harsh? (Your current attitude makes me think the latter is more likely)
Have you been dismissive of her quiet pleas to be heard? If she's been trying to tell you something and you haven't listened, she will SCREAM to be heard. I have a friend who has an absolutely lovely 12 year old TB gelding who went from soft and willing to a little resistant to dangerous, nearly flipping rearing. Why? His back hurt. His saddle fit and he had regular bodywork but he has spinal degeneration and his back was getting more and more painful, and she wasn't listening to him when he got resistant. So he exploded because he was desperate and she _wasn't listening_. My friend is a wonderful horsewoman, and she has a brilliant coach, and between them they thought the resistance was typical "this is new and I don't get it" kind of stuff. Nope. He was hurting.

So, _why_ is your horse screaming at you? What have you not heard?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

thank back, back, back . .. to where trouble started.


Ok. she bucked afer a succesful dressage competition. Why? why did she buck? Was it exuberance? or fear, or what. Think on that, carefully.


Is that in any way related to her pulling away from you, on the lungeline, and running though taped off areas? 



From what I see, they may or may not be connected, but you are best to concern yourself with ONE issue for now, instead of calling her a psycho hell raiser in general. Both issue may be connected, but for now, let's consider her pulling away from you.


She has learned NOT to give to pressure. This is something we hope our horses will never figure out. we teach it in early , and hope they never push the boundaries too far and figure out that they can win that war. Now that she knows she can get away from you, she will try that again and again.
Approaching that with MORE fear inducing tools and attitudes will NOT HELP.


You have to do two things;


1. re-teach her to respect pressure and to give to it.


2. to get her to look to YOU for answers , instead of something 'out there'. And, I think, in order to get that, you have to get her to be able to give to pressure , so that's why number 1 is number 1.


Is this mare ok with being tied up? left tied up? like, at a trailer, or at a hitching post? Can she tolerate cross ties? or does she pull back? If not. I say that THAT is where you start; teaching her to tie and not pull back.


That opens a huge can of worms right there. there are loads of posts on that problem here. How to get a hrose to stop pulling back. But first, I think I should see if that is or is not a problem .


And , yes, whipping her and tying her down will not be a good choice at this point, IMO.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Brute force and ignorance is *never* going to work. 

As has been said, you need to look at why there has been this change in her behaviour.

To work successfully with any animal you have to earn their trust, that will never come from a big stick and bad temper.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi & welcome to HF... can we call you Psycho for short?? :lol: 

First & foremost, I do understand & sympathise with where you're at(been about there personally, albeit a long time ago & my first horse was a rearer, not a bucker, with 'experts' who advised 'show him who's boss' type stuff). Most of us didn't go into horses already understanding horses & training well, we have all made many mistakes, due to the knowledge & skill we had - or didn't have - at the time. Many of us also don't have the best of support, end up with some... questionable attitudes & practices from the helpers we can find, and many of us don't have $$$ for exxy trainers either. So, this is by way of explaining, I'm not trying to judge or 'come down on you' for what you've said/done, just that there are lots of 'issues' I see here. I'm going to comment with my opinions on specific bits of your post as I go thru...



MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> First off all, my mare got checked nose to tail. Nothing is wrong.
> The tack fits just fine, how do I know? Had 2 experienced friend and the barn owner look at it.


Great that you have tried to check out that side of things, as 'bad behaviour' is very often due to pain/discomfort, or fear. I wouldn't be so quick to assume you have ruled out anything physical or tack related from what you've said above though. 

How was your mare 'checked nose to tail'? By a good equine vet? Has she had any bodywork such as a chiropractic vet, esp since having the foal? Why I ask is that even vets may miss things, that 'general' equine vets, unless specialised may not have good knowledge about body issues, so may not be qualified to find/fix those type issues like a specialist chiro-vet for eg. Also regardless of whether she had previous body issues, it's common for mares to have pelvic issues after foaling.

And tack... Just how *knowledgeable about good saddle fit* were these experienced friends? IME - and it seems many, many others here & elsewhere I've discussed with - even 'professional saddle fitters'(whatever that title is worth) are often incorrect/mistaken/don't understand all the factors of *comfortably* fitting saddles to horses. I personally trust my chiropractic vet to assess saddle fit, but have only had terrible experiences with hiring 'pro saddle fitters'("trust me, he's not bucking because of the saddle...") So... not saying it is of course, but I also wouldn't class it as ruled out. There are a few here with good knowledge on the subject, particularly a guy, @unclearthur who is very knowledgeable & while pics & measurements don't allow for real accuracy, he could give you some sound advice if you wanted to make a thread on that.

Now, assuming it is all behavioural... 



> She's is know to be very very stubborn and also she is notorious for her killer bucks.


'Stubborn' means a horse has learned that resisting works for them. IOW, people have inadvertently taught her how to 'out persist' them. In order to 'untrain' this, you must make sure resisting NEVER works again(if it works occasionally, like the pokies for people, her belief in 'being stubborn' and resistant behaviour will get even stronger!), and you need to make the 'right things' - ie. responding to soft cues - easy *& rewarding* for her.

Known for her 'killer bucks'. Whether it is or not now, IME I believe either pain or fear was behind this behaviour originally. If she was great until one day... then I'd say pain was the likeliest, but if she's always been like that since first started, and as a lot of people 'break' horses rather confrontationally and they are fearful & reactive(bucking) when first saddled, it is likely fear based 'habit'.

So... as well as ensuring nothing is hurting her now, I'd 'restart' her from scratch, to ensure that there was no fear/reactivity at any step of the way. And again, if she does buck, be it from fear or otherwise, if it works for her at all - gets rid of the worry on her back, or at least causes them to quit asking for something she doesn't want to do - she will do more of it. So if you're not quite sure you won't come off, I'd find a (considerate, if that's not an oxymoron)bronc rider to help break her of the habit. **As she has apparently done this successfully for some years, I would not assume she will ever be 100% 'broke' of it tho, so I wouldn't allow anyone but an experienced rider who knows how to handle it, to ride her.



> We moved to another barn, at this time the foal was 7 months and ready to be weened. The mare was pretty chill about it but I waited a few weeks before I back on. I started riding her again and for the first few times nothing major happened, however I did notice she was more nervous and spooked a bit.
> One time she bucked pretty hard, I chickened out and let my friend ride her through. I though this was a one time thing and the next day I decided I asked to much from her and I restarted groundwork.


1. you moved to a strange environment. 2. foal was weaned. Means, aside from other factors, her nutritional & calorie requirement has changed, which may have also had a bearing on her attitude. 3. she was understandably a bit spooky under saddle - what did you do to *help her regain her confidence*?

When she bucked & you 'chickened out' does that mean you bailed? Of course, don't try to hang in there if you feel unsafe, but do realise every time this happens, you are strengthening her 'training' that bucking... & bucking harder if it doesn't work to start with, is the Right answer.

Yes, you may well have asked too much of her at that point in time, and yes, groundwork may well be a good move for her too. But realise that this will not change her ridden behaviour. Horses learn from instant, direct association, so to change her ridden behaviour, you need to do so while riding.



> She was a disrespectfull nasty idiot who just ran off dragging the lunge line through my hands.


The kind of trendy term/theory about 'respect' and 'disrespect' of horses grates on me quite a bit personally. That she 'disrespects' you is an obvious 'no brainer' & unhelpful, IMO, just like saying "your problem is she wasn't obedient - you need to gain her obedience & then she will be obedient." I don't subscribe to the opinion that you can force 'respect', that it entails fear(of punishment or otherwise) or that the horse should be 'obedient' to whatever you ask or they're being a 'nasty idiot'.

How respectful are _you_ of _her_ attitude & feelings? I ask this because to me, 'respect' is something you *earn* through being trustworthy, considerate and clear and consistent on everything. IOW it's a 2 way street - you can't earn respect without proving to the horse you're respectFUL of her. So, when you called her a 'disrespectful nasty idiot' it suggests you are probably not respectful & understanding of her, so therefore her not respecting you is a given.

As for what exactly she did, I'd first ask whether she has lunged well in the past, and how well she understands the task *& all the 'ingredients' of that task? Was it that she wasn't 100% sure what you were asking, that you weren't clear, that she has not learned how to *respond* rather than _react_ to what you were asking? If she did understand all that well and if she has lunged well & reliably *for you* in the past, perhaps she was reacting to your attitude, or perhaps due to her nervous disposition ATM & that you weren't being a respectFUL leader, she was worried & reactive, or perhaps, because of the above, she wasn't actually nervous, but was effectively telling you 'you & who's army?' - that you don't have the right to tell her what to do. From what you have said, I sus there is at least a fair bit of fear & confusion involved tho.



> Today I decided to lunge again.
> Well, I saw every corner of that darn arena. Again a friend helped me out and he is very very experienced and he has seen many "problem" horses.
> He got dragged around like a lil' piece of paper by this mare.
> I decided that I was done and I whooped her bum and used a heavy bit(normally against it but I could not think clearly at that moment)....


One more thing about lunging is, I use it to teach/reinforce a horse responding to 'implied' pressure - eg bodylanguage, a pointed finger, a raised arm, swung rope/stick/whip... signals at a distance. It's important to have a good understanding of where you're at & where you're wanting to go with it. So I'd ask *why* did you decide to lunge & what were you wanting to teach/reinforce? What made you decide she was ready for that step? What was your reason & method for this? 

Sounds to me like your friend may have a lot of experience with _seeing_ 'problem' horses, but he's not very knowledgeable or experienced with actually _training_ horses effectively. 

When did you 'whoop her bum'(I gather than means you hit her with a whip/rope?) exactly? And what _exactly_ for? And what _exactly_ did you use a heavy(I presume you mean harsh, painful?) bit for? Do you understand that horses don't think rationally, cannot understand abstracted ideas? So they need *INSTANT* consequences, to link cause to effect. So... for eg. if you 'whooped her bum' *as* she was running backwards, in order to make her come forward, then quit the *instant* she jumped forward, that would be potentially productive - you punished the behaviour that was Wrong. If however, you walloped her after the event, _whatever she was doing at the time_ is what you effectively punished. If you put a 'heavy' bit in her mouth so that *when* she was dragging you/your friend, it would be painful for her, then there is some value in it. But if you just got stroppy with her & handled her harshly because of what she had been doing, you're being harsh & stroppy for no reason in her eyes.



> So, my mare with a stubborn personality and a known bucking problem went nuts.


Yep, as I hope I explained, as she wouldn't have had a clue what YOU were 'going nuts' on her about, it's not surprising she 'went nuts' even more with this treatment. Perhaps we can anthropomorphise for a minute... Imagine you were taken by foreigners who's language you couldn't understand, then made to do something that... seemed unsavoury to you. Imagine you also don't understand what is wanted of you, and the foreigners are yelling & gesturing, unintelligibly at you. Imagine then they started 'walloping your bum' and put a bit of sharp metal in your mouth & got rough with it. Would the last things help you better understand & trust what they were asking? Would you 'respect' them for all this? Or would you perhaps 'go nuts' trying to escape?

I think, respectfully, that it sounds like you could do with some lessons in equine behaviour/psychology, and the *principles* behind training, before you practice more of it, esp with an already 'difficult' horse. If you don't know what you're doing yourself, especially as it sounds like the mare was already dangerous & messed up by people before you got her, if you can't afford a trainer(maybe you could barter with one if you don't have the cash - maybe work for them & they can teach you as well as the horse??), for safety's sake, as well as not adding to her 'wrong training', sounds likely best to find this horse a home(if you can) with a good, experienced trainer, or just keep her as a 'pasture pet'(tho you still need to ensure she is able to be managed safely for hoofcare etc). Because trying & failing with others who don't know what to do either is only likely to make her far worse, more dangerous, more difficult for even a good trainer to be able to 'recover'.



> Currently considering tying her nose at her breast, taking my spurs and 2 wips. Just "kindly" saying "hey, I'm done do nor try me again"....


Glad you are asking for advice before doing anything of the sort, as, as I hope I've explained clearly above, horses don't think like people, so she wouldn't have a clue what you were being cruel about even.



> I only have a big arena and no round pen or small paddock, she just smashes through wire so I cant section off a smaller piece. She just gives zero care about pressure, she just turns her head and bolts.


If she either hates/is frightened to stay with you so much that she 'smashes through wire', I think that is somewhere you can start safely, without help from others. Work on getting her to *want* to stay with you, to trust you not to get after her. THEN you can start to teach her that to *respond* to your 'pressure' is something she will be rewarded for, so she will learn to respond rather than react, and want to stay with you even when you 'put pressure on'. I do not believe this horse 'gives zero care' about pressure - on the contrary, I think she either hates or fears it & doesn't understand, or is not reinforced/rewarded for *responding*.



> With riding, I hopped on a few times during this whole groundwork ordeal. She was very very very tense but wasn't mean.


Horses are not(with perhaps extremely rare exceptions, of which I've never met) innately 'mean' or such, but they can be _made_ to be, by people - including well meaning people who just don't know what they're doing. I would definitely NOT be getting on this horse at this point, if you value your safety, and also if you want to get her happy & confident about being ridden. If she is tense about you just being near her, 'very, very tense' about being ridden, you're only asking for her to 'go psycho' on you if you insist on riding.


Boy... started this answer this morn before there were any other replies, but had to come back to it between 'life' a few times, so sorry if I've basically said what others have said already.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

loosie said:


> The kind of trendy term/theory about 'respect' and 'disrespect' of horses grates on me quite a bit personally. That she 'disrespects' you is an obvious 'no brainer' & unhelpful, IMO, just like saying "your problem is she wasn't obedient - you need to gain her obedience & then she will be obedient." I don't subscribe to the opinion that you can force 'respect', that it entails fear(of punishment or otherwise) or that the horse should be 'obedient' to whatever you ask or they're being a 'nasty idiot'.
> 
> How respectful are _you_ of _her_ attitude & feelings? I ask this because to me, 'respect' is something you *earn* through being trustworthy, considerate and clear and consistent on everything. IOW it's a 2 way street - you can't earn respect without proving to the horse you're respectFUL of her. So, when you called her a 'disrespectful nasty idiot' it suggests you are probably not respectful & understanding of her, so therefore her not respecting you is a given.


This in particular I feel is worth repeating and is the core issue here. Well said and excellent, thorough post. Nothing left to add.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I think everyone covered pretty much everything. I would like to add one thing, though. Let's say you go after her with the tie-down, the whips, and the spurs, and you punish her like crazy, and ultimately she submits. You now have a robot horse that just submits out of fear and has no life or spirit left. Is that what you want?

You have to get her on your side, wanting to do what you want. Brute force is either going to end with one or both of you hurt or dead, as people have pointed out, or with a dead-spirited robot horse.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_*Welcome to the forum...*_

I too would like to offer/share some things to ponder...

This horse was fine as long as she did not have "stress" added to her spinal processes with either bending movement from a lunge line and smaller circles or under tack...
What my thought pattern is headed toward is is there a issue with her spine when she flexes or has pressure/weight or the combination of any of those things put to her?
Groundwork sounds like it was pretty reasonable and issue free...
Then you took her body from going in straight lines and very slight bends to upping the stresses to her spine when you lunged or put a saddle on...
Now a bit of time has elapsed, she should of started to build some muscle and conditioning and problems are showing...
Again, what is seen exterior is only a small part of what could be ailing this horse under that skin and that is where I would be looking closely for a trigger response and cause of her explosions.

With regard to your temper and it getting the best of you working with this animal...
You, if you truly do as you wrote are going to unleash fury you will not escape being turned on you.
The fight or flight reflex is going to snap in the horse with possibly you ending up being attacked with horrible injuries by a animal who is only trying to tell you she is in distress and great pain...
Go back and think about when she transformed in her time working with/for you..
Till you pushed her harder/further and stepped into her pain unbearable sphere the horse was sweet...so something is definitely triggering her. 
_You need to find what that trigger is_...and looking under the skin is where you are going to find the problem.
Since the horse far outweighs, outmuscles and out-fury you pick that battle carefully you mentioned unleashed on her as she will in return unleash on you...results can vary but expect a wheelchair in your future or even death when you push the animal so hard they have no option but to defend and fight to death, ultimately it would probably be both of you pushed hard enough.
Think very carefully before you unleash your temper tantrum what you shall reap in return.
If you can't afford the diagnostic tests to uncover, then specialized training she is going to need to get over/past this response, then seriously consider selling her or making a donation of her to a teaching university/hospital for them to find a cause and learn from a necropsy what has occurred and how the condition could of been treated and found by a vet in the field. 
Or just euthanize her if options are no longer a possibility or pasture ornament forever status begins.
You can't enjoy nor ride her as she is cause you _*are*_ going to get hurt by her blowing you off in explosive reaction, your friends will soon not be willing to get astride and then you have what?
Selling her unless you disclose this as it is now known by others leaves you open for lawsuits for misrepresentation... that limits your way out.
I offer you good luck in your decisions to do right by this animal and her issues to be found.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo._


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Although I agree with what a lot was said here, I am not reading that there has been a lot of interactions with anger and fear. What I'm reading is that OP had thoughts of this and believe me, I've been in that place. I think that most of us have been in that place of a few milliseconds of "horse, I want to hurt you back". If you haven't that would be pretty rare or you just haven't been around them long enough. 

With my one mare, I've had the thought of "I don't care if you end up on someone's dinner plate" Did I really mean that? No Would I ever let that happen? No Did I walk away from this horse until I cared again? Yes. It took about ten minutes to get a different mentality, and fresh eyes on the situation at hand.

What I am reading is that OP is trying with this horse and feels like she/he is out of options and at their wits ends. Honestly, I'm not even going to try to give an answer of what to do because it is so hard to see what is happening without actually seeing what the OP is or is not doing and how the horse is behaving to see what her issues are. Is she behaving out of fear? Pain? She knows she can? Hard to say without laying eyes on it. And, the next step can happen two seconds, two minutes, or two days later.

I would say for starters though, you have to create a smaller space where she can't bolt off on you. You don't seem to know how to use leverage and angle to stop her from doing that. Every time she does it, it just reinforces that she can. Give her lots of praise for doing the tiniest thing right. But first you have to set her up to do it right, even if it is accidental on her part.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> She's is know to be very very stubborn and also she is notorious for her killer bucks.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure my beloved Salty suffered through a few owners like you. I am dedicated to spending the next 10 years fixing other peoples' mistakes with him because he deserves so much better.

There are plenty of humane, sensible trainers with monthly memberships that are very affordable. If you can't afford a weekend clinic and $25 a month to improve your horsemanship, you might want to rethink owning this horse.

Warwick Schiller, West Taylor, Mark Langley, Ross Jacobs, Harry Whitney... start watching and reading. Heck, even Parelli would be a better deal for this horse.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> I decided that I was done and I whooped her bum and used a heavy bit(normally against it but I could not think clearly at that moment)........


Here's the part where op got a bit rough with mare. Let's face facts ,in the heat of the moment we can do things we normally wouldn't. 

I have read this post several times I'm hearing someone who is frustrated. I don't think op is a mean, beat the tar out of your horse type. 

Guessing she typed this out an was very upset angry. When I'm in that state of mind I say things I'd Never say,when my state of mind is in a good place.

I Know from experience with my own horse there were times. I could of beat him with in a inch of his life. Had I done that it would of solved nothing. Would of only given him more reason to be fearful and not trust me.

Sometimes you just need to go back in training to where things were good. Then progress from there. 

But your state of mind will effect how your horse responds to you. If you go out there with the you stupid nutcase, idiot horse. Well horse will be just that. 

I give op credit though because she is here asking for help.


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## Jolly101 (Jul 2, 2018)

It can definitely be frustrating when you come to this point. OP, do you think it would be possible to put aside riding for a few months and work specifically on groundwork/ make work fun again? It would also be interesting to see if there would possibly be any changes in attitude or even if she seems more comfortable. 



I'd also like to know what you have and have not checked for physicals because more often than not, that is an issue in bucking. Did you check for kissing spine and ovarian cysts? However, not always and it can be a mixture of behaviour and pain, or just behaviour itself. 





> She was a disrespectful nasty idiot who just ran off dragging the lunge line through my hands.
> However I did not quit and I worked through that first time lunging.
> After this I did "small" groundwork like leading around cones/poles, backing up etc. I did this for a few weeks.
> Today I decided to lunge again.
> ...



So, she was behaved with her previous owner, when they did lots of groundwork with her. Then, given time, she started reverting back to disrespect and this has continued with you? From this bit of information, it seems as if she really doesn't respect you and sees herself as herd leader, so she moves you and expects you to follow.


It's interesting that this behaviour has exacerbated with you. How much training have you had in groundwork? I used to train with a trainer who fixed problem horses for a living and had the chance to learn a bit from him. Often, he would get horses that had behavioural issues with very experienced riders. many of these horses were fixed within a matter of months. What was interesting was that the owners would often present 'timid' body language because of previous misbehaviour of the horse and the horse, sensing this, would revert to misbehaviour when handled by the owner. By timid, I mean shifting their weight away from the horse, stepping away when the horse shifted his weight into the rider and being generally tense on the ground. Any subtle or not so subtle changes in behaviour that the horse would see as a win. The horse's disrespect for the owner almost always translated into the saddle. Obviously, learning how to change that language took time and then they learned how to correct the horse them selves. There were also a few horses that just needed constant reminders in their ground manners and loved to push boundaries.


As for her dragging people around, do you have access to a good rope halter? I tend to prefer these from chains because they seem to have a clearer and quicker pressure release system and they do make it uncomfortable when the horse goes against pressure.Chains don't release pressure very quickly and regular halters distribute the pressure too much to be effective for precise corrections. If possible, I would take some lessons with someone who really knows their groundwork and can teach you everything from the exercises to being aware of your own body language. Work you horse first without a saddle on the ground, then with a saddle on the ground to try and re-establish those ground manners. When she is fairly consistent in her behaviour, then start introducing some saddle work. Start very very small. At first, this might mean just simply mounting and dismounting, then walking on a loose rein for 5 min. All slowly building up to more work. Make sure to use lots of positive reinforcement. Make her think she wants to be ridden. If she is still acting up, then I would pursue further physical examinations, consider having a trainers involvement, or consider if she is the right match for you.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I didn't read all the replies. But you say you had a friend lunge who is experienced? Either you didn't have the proper equipment or he's not as experienced as you think he is, when done properly lunging a horse will never result in anybody being pulled around. Enlist in different help.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I, long ago, learned that when someone was really angry and looking for a fight/argument, if I stayed totally calm and nonchalant, no matter what they did or said, they soon gave up. 

It is much the same with horses, if you can stay totally calm and let them have their bossy fits, they give in all the sooner as it is getting them nowhere fast.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

rambo99 said:


> Here's the part where op got a bit rough with mare. Let's face facts ,in the heat of the moment we can do things we normally wouldn't.
> 
> I have read this post several times I'm hearing someone who is frustrated. I don't think op is a mean, beat the tar out of your horse type.
> 
> ...



I've whooped bum plenty of times and not out of anger and/or frustration. Merely out of they needed it. Example: I'm bringing big mare in from pasture and have to pass through paddock. Here comes 8 month colt that wants to play around and jump on mare and bite her. I whop his butt with lead, he keeps doing it, I whop him again and he keeps doing it. Meanwhile, if he doesn't stop, said mare if going to whop him a good one. I whop him third time and he runs off and stays away. Mission accomplished. Mare gets put in stall. I go back to gate to feed my girls and the colt is standing there. I scratch his withers, he enjoys it and I move on. It's easier to not lose your temper when you remind yourself that their behavior is for a reason. Mostly, they are being a horse and it's up to you to deal with it.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> First off all, my mare got checked nose to tail. Nothing is wrong.
> The tack fits just fine, how do I know? Had 2 experienced friend and the barn owner look at it.
> 
> Well, here the story starts...
> ...


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

LoriF said:


> I've whooped bum plenty of times and not out of anger and/or frustration. Merely out of they needed it. Example: I'm bringing big mare in from pasture and have to pass through paddock. Here comes 8 month colt that wants to play around and jump on mare and bite her. I whop his butt with lead, he keeps doing it, I whop him again and he keeps doing it. Meanwhile, if he doesn't stop, said mare if going to whop him a good one. I whop him third time and he runs off and stays away. Mission accomplished. Mare gets put in stall. I go back to gate to feed my girls and the colt is standing there. I scratch his withers, he enjoys it and I move on. It's easier to not lose your temper when you remind yourself that their behavior is for a reason. Mostly, they are being a horse and it's up to you to deal with it.


I've whacked my horses a good one when needed. I'm all for it if it's needed, but doing so out of anger isn't something that should be done. 

I think the not losing your temper with horses ,comes with understanding them. And understanding them comes with experience and being around ,working with them. 

Yep horses will be horses you can learn a lot. By watching them interact with each other out in pasture.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> First off all, my mare got checked nose to tail. Nothing is wrong.
> The tack fits just fine, how do I know? Had 2 experienced friend and the barn owner look at it.


Who checked your mare nose to tail? A vet?
Was it a lameness evaluation?
Did they do flexions?
More information here would be helpful.



MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> This mare is already 16 yo.
> She's is know to be very very stubborn and also she is notorious for her killer bucks.
> Before I got her she has been in good hands all her life, however people where afraid off her "issues" and they just had her out in the pasture.
> Then she went (before me) to a nice lady who did mostly groundwork.(she was also pregnant at this time). During the stay with the lady the mare was pretty well behaved and not too bad overall. When the foal was born and about 2/3 months old this mare came into my life. Something just clicked and told me "this is the one".


So the main point of the story is that you bought a 16 year old horse that is a KNOWN BUCKER, and "killer bucks" as you call them. 

Were you aware that you may have issues with this horse, because of her history? Or did you think she would be fine?



MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> The first month of bringing her back into work was smooth sailing with no fireworks.
> 
> One time she bucked pretty hard, I chickened out and let my friend ride her through.
> 
> I though this was a *one time thing* and the next day I decided I asked to much from her and I restarted groundwork.


Again, you stated you bought a known bucker. The first month was probably the "honeymoon". Then the horse tested you, and in a sense, you failed because you chickened out. _(So did she buck you off? Did you stop and get off? What exactly happened?) _Either way, horse probably learned she could get her one, from this first time.

Why would you think this would be a one-time-thing? You said yourself she is a known bucker. 



MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> She was a *disrespectful nasty idiot *who just ran off dragging the lunge line through my hands.


I am always sad when I hear people talk of their own horse this way. If you think that little of them.....

Horses do what they have been trained to do and/or allowed to do. Rarely is it ever the horse's fault; most of the time it is the handler's fault. There are rare "nut" horses out there that don't have their head on straight, but that is few and far between. Most of the problems that horses have, have been caused by humans. 




MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> I decided that I was done and I whooped her bum and used a heavy bit(normally against it but I could not think clearly at that moment)....
> 
> So, my mare with a stubborn personality and a known bucking problem went nuts.
> 
> Currently considering tying her nose at her breast, taking my spurs and 2 wips. Just "kindly" saying "hey, I'm done do nor try me again"....


When you lose your temper, you need to learn to walk away and gather your thoughts. You will NOT force a horse to do anything. They are bigger than you. They are stronger than you. And getting angry and out of control will only continue to make the horse's experience worse, and make the problems worse. 



MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> Also I cannot afford to sent her off to a training stall, my helping friend can only come once a week to help me out. I'm on my own.
> 
> I only have a big arena and no round pen or small paddock, she just smashes through wire so I cant section off a smaller piece. She just gives zero care about pressure, she just turns her head and bolts.
> With riding, I hopped on a few times during this whole groundwork ordeal. She was very very very tense but wasn't mean.
> ...


Personally, I do not think this horse is a good fit for you. With your temper, and her temper, I do not see this ending well if you are unable to hire a professional trainer to help you. 

The timing and feel of your training (realize that you are training your horse any time you interact with your horse) is very important. Every time you try to FORCE her to do anything, your damaging that training. She's already had 16 years of bad habits engrained in, and is a known bucker. This is something that is going to take time and consistency to fix -- at least months, if not years. 

Are you willing to do that? Are you capable of doing that?

If the answer is "no", then it would be in your safest interest to sell with full disclosure.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

At this point, many of us have chimed in OP, and I imagine it's been a little hard to read & take in for you. But please don't think you've been 'set upon' here - I do think most of us here understand where you're at & sympathise, just that you got such a strong response because your post has set so many 'alarm bells' clanging loudly for the experienced horse people here... What are your thoughts after reading?


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I don't know you, I don't know your horse, and I can't be there to see what's going on... but I can unequivocally, and through experience of my own, tell you losing your temper and thrashing her, even if she may deserve it, won't fix the problem. Ever seen a backlash in a bait cast reel? A birds nest ball of knotted bull crap? That's what you've got in this horse and you're going to have to start from the beginning and pick the snarls out one at a time.

Going to a meaner bit, whipping her, and anything else you can think of is going to send her in the wrong direction. I've been there, I've seen it happen, I've watched a horse go from a nutcase and seemingly psycho to an absolutely worthless pile of meat on the hoof. I. let. it. happen. and I thought it was 'fixing' him... and I regret every bit of it, and I don't like admitting just how bad it got before it got better. 

He already had a lot of trauma and abuse before he came to me, and I let other people who thought they knew what they were doing 'work' with him. He was mentally and emotionally destroyed and I let other people make it 100xs worse with cowboy brutality. I saw him come back from a ride with his mouth bleeding... from a D Ring Snaffle. I've seen him torn up from a cinch pulled too tight. I don't like admitting what 'cowboys' I know did to him to try to 'fix' him. 

It took a whole year to get him to trust me again, and it took a ban on ANYONE going in his pasture, looking at him, so much as whistling at him... Me, and only me were allowed anywhere inside his fence... and three years later, he's the best darned horse I've ever had. But I had to take it the other way - I had to start by gentling him and earning his trust through kindness, and _then _I earned his respect. I never dreamed I'd be able to say I trust him more than any other horse we own. He's taught me so much about being quiet and being a leader. He's pushed me to want to whip him with the reins ONE time in the last three years, and when I got on the ground, cocked my arm back with a handful of 8ft split reins... and was a half second from beating him within an inch of his life... I saw the terror in his eyes, and I remembered all the times I'd seen it before when someone else thrashed him with the reins. I literally did a Yosemite Sam Monkey stomp fit in front of him, took a deep breath, bent over at the waist... and took deep breaths till I regained my composure. But I didn't hit him... I walked him back to camp instead so we both had time to wind down. I knew in that second that saw his eyes that if I hit him, all the trust and respect I'd worked for over the past year would be thrown away, possibly never to be regained. I've never even had the thought enter my mind since then.

We take care of each other on the trails now. He's forgiven me and placed his trust in me. We may disagree, we may squabble and bicker... but I have not lost my temper with him again.

Alternatively: Some horses were taught to be monsters, I've had one of those too. I sold her after getting a foal out of her. Without knowing what you have on your hands, I can't tell you which you have... monster or PTSD in an otherwise gentle soul?

But I can tell you whipping, and spurring, and tearing up her mouth won't fix it. It will make it worse. If brutality is the only solution you truly believe you have left, if she's a spoiled monster that you cannot redeem... sell her with full disclosure... but don't get medieval with her.

Hope you don't think I'm piling on here... But I've been there. And I've seen what will happen if you go that route. I will forever regret what I allowed to happen to Trigger, thinking it was going to make him a sane, well mannered horse. It didn't. It mentally destroyed him for a long time.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I didn't have time to read all the answers but as I understand it, the time you have know this mare she was either in foal or nursing and the foal was weaned after you got her and that is when all the trouble began. Could there be something wrong with her reproductive organs, maybe have a vet check that out to see it there is anything wrong that is causing her a lot of pain and discomfort.
I don't know it this could be her problem but might a good thing to have her checked.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I don't know where everyone is getting that this mare was fine before OP got her. She was not fine. OP stated that she was in good hands. I think that means that she was well taken care of and nothing else because OP also states that she was just kept to pasture because they were afraid of her "Killer bucks". 

Then, she went to a "NICE" lady who did mostly ground work with her. At this time the mare was pregnant. My guess is that first owners did not ride her as they were afraid of her so she got bred and then sold. So back to nice lady. She's nice and does mostly ground work with her and horse is doing ok. Mostly means to me that maybe she was ridden a little bit? 

When OP meets horse, the horses baby was 2 to 3 months old and OP falls in love with horse. OP rides horse and even competes with her and they do well so OP decides to buy horse and move her to a different place to live. Foal is 7 months old and I'm assuming that this is when foal was weaned. Horse is now a little nervous and this is when OP starts having trouble and is now afraid of her.

This looks to me like she responds well with kindness and groundwork. Here's the big "BUT". You can't be afraid of her. Horses know this. When you are afraid they will become their own leader or trot off to find someone else who can be. Fearful beings are not the ones to be trusted to follow. Not being afraid doesn't mean being aggressive either because aggression stems from fear. There is no compromise here in a horses mind. There is no "Oh she'll come around" Horses live in "the now". Not tomorrow or next week.


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## Smartee Pants (Sep 27, 2019)

I haven't read through all of the replies but wanted to ask - since the problems didn't start until you moved her what is she being fed vs. what she was getting at the other farm? Could make a difference. That combined with your reaction(s) to what she's doing could just be compounding the problem.


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## Horse girl 07 (May 12, 2015)

Horses do not respond to fear well and I imagine they don’t respond to anger either since in my opinion it is a form of fear. Horses need to be corrected away when they do something dangerous but causing pain is not the answer. Horses are like kids they try to get out of doing something and will test you. Most will read you like a book once you sit in that saddle and if your fear serves them they will take it to the bank. They all have different tricks in their bag and use what works- taught by people that ride them. It is important and the hardest thing is not to take it personal. I was a new rider (started very late in life)had a new horse. We had many months of great rides. My horse did not like the indoor at night and let out a buck and almost unseated me. I had never fallen and it scared me. Half hanging off the horse I scooted back up in the saddle. Walked a few steps and then I got off and then the problems began the next day- Outside in the regular riding ring during the day. It took months I dreaded coming down to the barn. No health issues and no tack issues. the trainer worked with me but eventually I had to ride it out with supervision. He did not do this when she schooled him. He was in a training program. Had no issues except when I got on him by myself. He took advantage of my fear which was only building. I was not ready to give this horse up in fear of his future. I Would look up YouTube videos on riding out bucks. Eventually I rode out the bucking in a lesson heels down eyes not looking on the ground but straight ahead visualizing success. My instructor said I can break young horses lol! I felt sick after lol but the fear ended and all those bucks did not serve him -way to much work for him and he never did that again. That was when our bond deepened. It did take me awhile to want to ride in the indoor at night but eventually I did with no issues. He was a great horse. My soul mate horse. You will need to get her checked physically, tack checked and if all is good in a training program with someone experienced in horse issues then a trainer to work with you and guide you. All done with patience much patience. You just have to decide where you want to go from here.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Horse girl 07 said:


> Horses do not respond to fear well and I imagine they don’t respond to anger either since in my opinion it is a form of fear. Horses need to be corrected away when they do something dangerous but causing pain is not the answer. Horses are like kids they try to get out of doing something and will test you. Most will read you like a book once you sit in that saddle and if your fear serves them they will take it to the bank. They all have different tricks in their bag and use what works- taught by people that ride them. It is important and the hardest thing is not to take it personal. I was a new rider (started very late in life)had a new horse. We had many months of great rides. My horse did not like the indoor at night and let out a buck and almost unseated me. I had never fallen and it scared me. Half hanging off the horse I scooted back up in the saddle. Walked a few steps and then I got off and then the problems began the next day- Outside in the regular riding ring during the day. It took months I dreaded coming down to the barn. No health issues and no tack issues. the trainer worked with me but eventually I had to ride it out with supervision. He did not do this when she schooled him. He was in a training program. Had no issues except when I got on him by myself. He took advantage of my fear which was only building. I was not ready to give this horse up in fear of his future. I Would look up YouTube videos on riding out bucks. Eventually I rode out the bucking in a lesson heels down eyes not looking on the ground but straight ahead visualizing success. My instructor said I can break young horses lol! I felt sick after lol but the fear ended and all those bucks did not serve him -way to much work for him and he never did that again. That was when our bond deepened. It did take me awhile to want to ride in the indoor at night but eventually I did with no issues. He was a great horse. My soul mate horse. You will need to get her checked physically, tack checked and if all is good in a training program with someone experienced in horse issues then a trainer to work with you and guide you. All done with patience much patience. You just have to decide where you want to go from here.


I am glad to hear everything worked out for you. Just wanted to mention, your horse most likely felt your fear, and thus bucked because of reading that fear and not understanding where the "scary thing" was. They do not realize that sometimes, the rider is scared of the horse...or what the horse will do...once you were able to be calm and confident, your horse also was calm and confident


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm not going to repeat what others have said, but you are probably part of the reason she is acting the way she is. Also, it can be pain-related. Just because the BO or a friend looked over your tack, doesn't mean it fits! My old BO told me my saddle fit my mare perfectly, & it actually was wayyyyyy too narrow for her & was pinching her. There could definitely be a reason for the bucking. Pain can definitely make horses act out. Get to the bottom of that first.

Getting frustrated with her, tying her down, using a harsher bit, whipping her butt...man, no wonder why she is not listening to you or doesn't WANT to. I don't blame her one bit. You have to give respect to get respect with these guys. It sounds like you don't ever end on a positive note & she probably doesn't understand anything you're asking. 

Fighting fire with fire doesn't make anything better. My mare & I have 'disagreements' sometimes, or she doesn't listen, but instead of fueling the fire with my frustration, I try to just turn it into something positive. As hard is it can be to control your emotions, you have to. Give her little bits of praise when she does good, etc. Even the smallest thing, gets a good pat or 'good girl'. Respect for these animals goes a LONG way. 

Just because someone has 'experience' it doesn't make them a trainer. AT ALL. Sorry, but it just doesn't. You need an actual, experienced trainer...….a real trainer. Not someone who says they have experience, yet has clearly no idea how to handle these situations. Look for different help.

Take some steps back. Maybe go back to basics. No tack. Little things at a time. Little wins I call them. Then end on that note. Then the next day, do a little more. End on a good note. Using a harsher bit will not solve your problems. They will only irritate her, & make her even worse. Using rougher equipment is never a good idea. At least not in my opinion. 

Not sure if you're a good fit for this horse. You may just not mesh well. Hopefully you can both get the help you need, because whatever is happening right now isn't working. Wish you the best of luck.


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## Horse girl 07 (May 12, 2015)

[MENTION=13697]anitaanne that was about 12 years ago a long time ago. I’m sure our energies bounced off each other and he was then like what’s wrong with you this is when he needed a leader to get passed him not wanting to move forward anymore- troubled ensued. It was a process for sure.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

loosie said:


> At this point, many of us have chimed in OP, and I imagine it's been a little hard to read & take in for you. But please don't think you've been 'set upon' here - I do think most of us here understand where you're at & sympathise, just that you got such a strong response because your post has set so many 'alarm bells' clanging loudly for the experienced horse people here... What are your thoughts after reading?



Agreed ... but OP hasn't logged on since making the post (according to profile), so hasn't read anything yet!


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I had said in my post on this thread that the OP was on the right track asking questions.


Perhaps I should have bitten my tongue until she showed any interest in taking the next step - which is _listening_ to the answers LOL


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## Finalcanter (Apr 15, 2013)

beau159 said:


> Agreed ... but OP hasn't logged on since making the post (according to profile), so hasn't read anything yet!


True, though you don't need to log in to read posts and threads. Maybe the OP feels regret, intimidated or that they wasted their time. Who knows. Guess we'll have to wait.


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## Best Blend (Nov 27, 2009)

Call either one of these two ladies. Kristen Guerra OR Laurie Gonacha 
_(Please PM this poster privately for contact information or a T4 aka Talk to the Team for phone numbers which are not permitted placed here per the forum rules}_
If neither one of them live in your area, they will both be able to direct you to a great equine therapist (NOT a veterinarian!) in your area.

Both of these ladies have saved me and my problem child, an OTTB. Some days I am worried that there's something wrong with my horse now that these two therapists have worked on his poll, TMJ, shoulder, chest, back and other body issues. He's docile as a draft horse now 

The only two things that motivate horses are comfort and safety. If they feel uncomfortable or unsafe, they act out. They don't have a "thinking" brain that is plotting to make your life miserable. They react on a moment-to-moment basis; based on whether they are feeling uncomfortable or unsafe. No more, no less.

Because you have not owned your horse from moment of birth, you would not have been privy to treatment or injuries that may have layered; causing these issues. My guess is body pains that come and go and that are exacerbated by tack, stress, weather, pressure and more. This is what has caused the unpredictableness of her behavior. I wish peace and calm for you two!


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## MymareIsSweetButPsycho (Feb 16, 2020)

A thousand years later,
My phone screwed up and my memory is horrible with passwords.
I'm sorry for bailing out of here....


Soooooo, nonsense blew up everywhere.
Skimmed through the reactions a bit.


First post was written in the heat of the moment, I am actually pro-liberty and anti-force...

This "problem" horse has always been a nutter and has thrown many many riders off, one had 8 broken ribs.

She was probably very very tired from the foal drinking and the pregnancy ordeal itself. When the foal was weened she went nuts. Just got her old energy back.

after a few months of trying a ton, I just left her alone and just groomed her once a week or so. 
Wish I could say things were fine but they aren't....
My friend rode her a while and one time he FLEW about 3meters and faceplanted in the sand and lost a fronth tooth. Well he was done too understandably.

I got a groundwork instructor, first lesson was okay just a few bucks and bolts.
The time after that, she wrecked a wooden fence with electric fencing.
I quit the instructor since she was pretty expensive. 

Looking to sell her atm, I just can't stand her anymore.

I want her to have a good new owner and forever home, no way she will end up at slaughter... too old for being a brood mare, unridable and untrainable. Hope she will be someones pasture pet who gets groomed every now and then.

Thx for replying.

Will she were it will end with her.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I am sorry it turned out that way. 

I understand that you are done with her so please feel free to disregard - could you get her eyes checked out?
We have a mare at the yard which behaves similarly and she has major eye issues. We don’t know if she bucks though - the way she carries on on the ground, nobody wants to be a crash test dummy.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> after a few months of trying a ton, I just left her alone and just groomed her once a week or so.
> Wish I could say things were fine but they aren't....
> My friend rode her a while and one time he FLEW about 3meters and faceplanted in


In all your 'trying a ton' how much of that was getting her checked out physically? Bodyworker? Vet? Nutritionist(as certain nutritional balances can make a horse 'crazy'. &/or sore)?

What made you decide she was up to being ridden by this friend of yours?



> I want her to have a good new owner and forever home, no way she will end up at slaughter... too old for being a brood mare, unridable and untrainable.


Sadly this is just not realistic. While I doubt she is untrainable, and her probs may well be treatable via a good bodyworker or such, would _you _buy her, knowing what you know now? Would you take her for nothing even? And if you sell her without being honest about this, then you're condemning her to more, and likely to be passed on until she goes to the knackery. Not to mention the (hopefully not too bad) wrecks you will cause by being dishonest about her.

Unless you know a rescue org that will take her, that you know will put in the necessary funds to help her, then if you want to be rid of her but don't want her to suffer & end up at slaughter, then IMO putting her down is the most humane, realistic option.


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## MymareIsSweetButPsycho (Feb 16, 2020)

I am more then honest with selling.

"Mare is nuts has always been, maybe you could train her but do not expect much" please give her a good home and don't sell her to slaughter.

Weirdly enough she seems fine with being a pasture pet and left alone most of the time.
Even grooming in the pasture is fine, she also just walked up to you ready to get attention? I don't give treats often?

Riding atm:
Taking her out of the pasture and leading to the barn is stressfull but doable. Grooming at the barn is stressfull but she relaxes a but after a while. Tack her up and she will try to run over you and just freaks out. Take your time and go slooowww taking 20min to flap the saddle pad around slow and she will let you tack her up as well.
Walk out of the barn to the arena and she has a heart attack and tries to bolt at least 10 times, I use a lunge line and just pull her back and hard. In the arena just unhook and let loose, mare runs and bucks around for 15min then stands still and eats the grass on the side. Walk up slowwww and catch her.
Flap around stirrups, girth, yourself and go very very slow. She will walk away for a bit but eventually she will stand still, very tense but still. Slowly hop on and hold on for dear life because she will take off.... just let her go and she will bronc untill you just come off, yank her face or use a whip she will eventually stop and just stands still very very tense. Use your keg and ask forward, she will take off again. Yank her face again and she will stand still again, repeat untill you are done or untill she bucks you off...

Groundwork:
Groom horse in pasture.
Lead out to arena, very tense but semi-okay.
Once in arena just unhook and she will ho nuts. Catch her after 20min or so.
Try to send her away on the lunge, or she will stand still and looks at you like "make me" or she just takes off. Battle with her for 20min and the just quit and put her back in the pasture.

People saying that she should be seen by a vet/bodyworker/etc.

I haven't used my saddle in a while, just a stable halter, bridle and a lunge line.
No issues with an ill fitted saddle, 8 months ago it got checked out and she hasn't gained or lost weight since so it still fits.

A vet has checked her over, low muscle tone and on the thinner side nothing wrong. 
A dentist said she had some hooks and a rotten tooth, he fixed them and pulled that one tooth out.
She has had a few massages because why not. Loosened her up.
With feed, I cutted out all sugary pellets.
Atm just hay 24/7 and a bucket of Lucerne. I tried magnesium and vitamincookie thingies as well.
Food doesn't seem to make a difference.

With her eyes, she sure isn't (totally) blind.
She doesn't walk into things or bumps and such? Bad vision maybe but she has displayed this crazy behaviour all her life...

I think she just has this crazy strongwilled character.

Idk guys...


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Well, I just wanted to say thanks for the update. I'm sorry things aren't going well. If you can keep her as a pasture pet, that may be the best thing for her. I absolutely appreciate that you would be honest in your sale description, but I don't think there are a lot of legitimate buyers who want a horse like this. Like @loosie said, would YOU buy a horse like this?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't blame you for not wanting to deal with her any longer. I would feel plenty 'shell shocked' after all that, too.


Here are a couple of things that stood out to me in your last description of how she is, and what you do with her.


I am not sure why you turn her loose in the arena to buck and run. If she is on a pasture, she should not need that to 'let off steam'. That may be teaching her that that is what arena's are for; bucking wildly. Knowing that, as she approached the arena, she is anticipating this activity and becoming very anxious about it. 

Especially if there is some kind of difficult to diagnose physical issue that is associated with moving quickly or being ridden. this could be an ulcer, or kissing spines, or a pinched sacral nerve, etc. Those sorts of thing may make the horse lose her mind and buck/run from pain. Even if it is not actual pain, she can learn a pattern and start to anticipate it, and make it happen again.


I would not mount such a horse at all. And, I would not work her with a long, thin traditional lunge line. I would use about a 15 foot rope line and knotted rope halter. She would not be allowed to be away from me much further than 8 feet, and I would keep her head turned toward me at all times, if possible.


I would ask her to move around me in a smallish circle, and the split second she started to lean to the outside, as if she was preparing to 'leave' me and bolt, I would snap the line and ask that she look inward. As soon as she calmed a bit, I'd ask her to move forward again.


In all honesty, my above description should not use "me, I'd" because I , personally, do not have the physical strenght nor the sharp sense of timing needed to work with a horse that is THIS reactive. It requires a person who gets in and reacts to the horse's THOUGHT of leaving, and interrupts that before that split second turn of the head where in the horse cannot physically be turned back toward you, and she can tank off and pull anyone off their feet. 



I know and have seen trainers work with this behavior. IT's ugly to see, and takes courage on the part of the human, but the fundamentals are about what I described, imagining that I were that powerful person.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> ...Tack her up and she will try to run over you and just freaks out. Take your time and go slooowww taking 20min to flap the saddle pad around slow and she will let you tack her up as well.


I've started horses and also worked a lot with problem horses. Step one, if the horse is not able to handle being tacked up calmly without taking all of this time, the horse should never have progressed to being ridden. That is skipping about a hundred steps.
Not saying you should ride the horse at all, but if a person was going to, they'd have to work many, many times with the horse until they could first handle being tacked up, wearing tack, being lunged in tack, ground driven in tack, all calmly before any attempts at riding.
This concept is the same for horses that have never been ridden, but also for horses that have been ridden in the past.



MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> Walk out of the barn to the arena and she has a heart attack and tries to bolt at least 10 times, I use a lunge line and just pull her back and hard.


Now it is clear that the horse shouldn't even be tacked up at all, but needs to go back even more steps to work on being led calmly without bolting. The horse must be able to be handled and led calmly before any further steps are taken such as tacking the horse.



MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> She will walk away for a bit but eventually she will stand still, very tense but still. Slowly hop on and hold on for dear life because she will take off.... just let her go and she will bronc untill you just come off, yank her face or use a whip she will eventually stop and just stands still very very tense.


A horse that is standing very tense and still is a powder keg waiting for an explosion. No one has any business getting on a horse that is tense. 
I can see three possibilities: 
1)The horse was not actually trained in the past but under the influence of drugs enough to tolerate a rider short term.
2)The horse is reactive and has been handled roughly, which now has made her frightened of being handled and ridden, so she will need retraining to learn to trust and be used again.
3)The horse has a physical issue causing pain or had a physical issue that cleared up, but now she now associates pain with being handled and ridden. 

A person cannot trust that a vet is correct to say "nothing is wrong" unless they do many complicated tests and bloodwork. The horse could easily have Lyme, which would explain a lot, or ulcers, which also would explain a lot. Low muscle tone and being thin when on pasture with hay 24/7 plus Lucerne point to something being very wrong physically.

On the one hand you say she has "displayed this crazy behavior all her life." On the other hand, it sounds like you just got her and rode her in a dressage competition and had no problems, which points to a well trained horse that has either been handled poorly which has made her very reactive and scared, or else a new and serious health issue.

You describe a horse that is very, very tense. A horse that is tense either is severely frightened or in physical pain. Horses are not tense as a prerequisite to being naughty or stubborn. Horses that tense up, bolt off, buck fiercely, etc are having issues that are absolutely impersonal to the person handling them. They are reacting to fear or pain.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Ok, appreciate you're over this, but since you have this further info, I will tell U my thoughts on it... For what it's worth.


> "Mare is nuts has always been, maybe you could train her but do not expect much" please give her a good home and don't sell her to slaughter.


Firstly didn't mean to imply you wouldn't be honest, but unless you're VERY careful to check out who you're selling to(& even then...) Just because you're honest & a seller tells you what you want to hear, means very little I'm afraid. Perhaps if you sold/gave her away on the grounds that you will take her back if new owners can't handle her... And have that in writing.



> Riding atm:
> Taking her out of the pasture and leading to the barn is stressfull but doable. Grooming at the barn is stressfull but she relaxes a but after a while. Tack her up and she will try to run over you and just freaks out. Take your time and go slooowww taking 20min to flap the saddle pad


Firstly, there is no way I'd consider she is up to being ridden, with what you've told above. I'd get her good with 'basics' before heaping more stress on her. If she stresses out obviously just being taken from the paddock, then get her good about that first, don't just continue & take her into the barn & do more stuff to her. Get her good about things on & around her before you start with tack. Make sure she's fine being tacked somewhere she is comfortable and relaxed, before asking her to deal with that AND be in the barn. **Make sure her tack is comfortable for her. 


> Walk out of the barn to the arena and she has a heart attack and tries to bolt at least 10 times, I use a lunge line and just pull her back and hard. ...
> Flap around stirrups, girth, yourself and go very very slow. She will walk away for a bit but eventually she will stand still, very tense but still. Slowly hop on and hold on for dear life because she will take off....


What with what you've told, you didn't need to spell out 'hold on for dear life's because yes, you'd expect big reactions, when she is clearly not comfortable & relaxed about being in the situation in the first place. Sounds like, when you go to get on, she's reached the point of holding her breath & waiting for 'the final straw'.

Continuing in the previous vein, if she is so reactive about going to the arena, I wouldn't go there. For now(assuming 'now' she is confident & relaxed leaving her paddock, going to the barn etc) I'd be working with 'approach & retreat' tactics to change her association from the arena being Bad News, to somewhere that's nice & rewarding to go. 

*While it depends on her reason, sounds to me she is reacting in fear, so if that's the case, punishing her(pulling her back, hard) for her reactivity & continuing to 'up the ante' is the last thing she needs.

Then when you get there, whether you let her run off steam first or not, if you catch her & she's at all tense - let alone very tense as you indicate, I'd get her comfortable with all that before you even THINK about getting on.


> just let her go and she will bronc untill you just come off, yank her face or use a whip she will eventually stop and just stands still very very tense


. 

I don't understand why you'd use a whip in that situation, but as for 'yanking her face' my feeling is if you find yourself in this predicament, you need to do whatever it takes to gain enough control to get off safely. Be that yanking her face or otherwise. 

THEN GET OFF! She is obviously very upset at being ridden, so getting off, quitting, will be the best reward for her standing still. Even if to begin it's only a fraction of a second. Better still, get off(or figuratively speaking, if not riding) before she gets to the point of exploding, being unable to contain her emotions. Teach her that controlling her emotions is what works. In turn teaching her also she can trust you not to ask too much of her.

I repeat, do the prep, get her comfortable with everything else before going that much further. Then she will be less likely to get to that point in the first place. From the picture you paint, she's obviously not ready mentally (assuming physically is ruled out) for being ridden.



> Try to send her away on the lunge, or she will stand still and looks at you like "make me" or she just takes off. Battle with her for 20min and the just quit and put her back in the pasture.


Sorry if U said, can't remember but is she trained to lunge? Are you? And what is it that you're trying to achieve through lunging? I'd ensure she was good about leading & being driven, at gradually increasing distance from you first.



> I think she just has this crazy strongwilled character.


Sounds like fear & strong survival instincts to me.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

I trained animals for tv and film and bomb dogs. Rehabbed aggressive pets, usually exotic, for owners who were at their wits end. Seriously it is mostly about training the handler/owner. But sometimes the relationship is so far gone its better for everyone involved for a fresh start. Definitely easier. 

You would need a lot of time on the ground with this mare to rebuild your relationship in my opinion. It's based atm on a lot of negativity and frustration. Imagine you're her mother. You don't even like your own child. And sometimes that's a thing. Not everyone is cut out for it but you can only learn it once you're in deep. They play up, are maybe adhd or on the spectrum so they need extra help. It IS expensive. In money, in time, in emotion. I really like what Foxhunter said earlier about grey-walling her. Your mare sounds sensitive, smart and overwhelmed. React only when you have to and only enough to preserve your safety. Don't react "just because". Her bad behaviour should illicit nothing from you. And the moment she does anything, even if it means standing still for 2 seconds, praise and give her some breathing room. You probably would need to begin 10mins a day. Most owners (of other pets and whatnot I've been involved with) might actually have the time. But they lack the self-discipline or emotional willingness to do what needs to be done and stick to it. Could I find a way to manage a horse like yours? Yes, I have enough resources if I HAD to. Would I WANT to? Nope. I don't have any desire to have to work through anything like bucking or biting or rearing. But I don't think you need to give up just yet.

How involved are you in your mare's day-to-day life if you don't mind me asking?
What is your routine?


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## MymareIsSweetButPsycho (Feb 16, 2020)

Sooo, I tried to dig up some info. Maybe there is more to it, this behaviour has to come from somewhere...

The mom of this horse, is also a bit of a nutcase.
I know this mom since 2017 and she is my first leasepony after years of weekly lessons at the barn, I still lease full time her to this day.
This little 13.9hand 20yo cobmare is not nervous at all. Today they were building a new fencing and poles were drilled into the ground lots or heavy machinery all day. I was tacking up next to it literally about 10ft distance. Drill starts drilling, pony doesn't even look and just props her hind leg and lets her lower lip drop... 
With riding/working, fine with kids and beginners. Let a more experienced person get on and she will get naughty. Not crazy bucking like mine, the daughter, does, but just walking halfway up the fence so your leg gets squashed, going to fast/slow, laying down with rider on, standing still and eating grass on the side of the arena, jumping over the 4ft fence from a standstill with rider on, jumping a 5ft fence because it was left there by someone.... these little crazy things, not mean just being annoying. Lunging is impossible because she just drags you around like a little flag(so daughter so mom....)

The dad, some stallion I don't know. I heard he was a beautiful typical cob with tons of hair.
But with breed shows and inhand showing he was very strong and would take off sometimes. Thats all I could find about daddy.

Sooo the craziness runs in the family, this does explain it a little bit.

THESE IS MORE.

And I don't know where to look.

My financial situation is a lot better, so a bigger budget has arrived.

Next week, vet will come and do a full bloodwork on her. Maybe her hormones are out of whack?
And I may suspect bad hearing? Sounds from far away she won't react, example someone closing a stable door(heavy metal kloink) can be clearly heard outside. She doesn't hear it in the pasture, but in at the wash/groom place just outside of the stable she gets a near heartattack. Pasture and groomplace are 30meters of open space apart.

In the pasture, crinkeling a plastic bag on her left side no reaction at all. Crinkle on the right and she looks up. Tried this one multiple times. (Doing this when basically sneaking up on her lol)
Will ask the vet about this as well.

I want to get to the bottom of this, why did she just turn 180degrees and start bucking around? 
She had periods of behaving very well, me winning a dressage competition on her... and periods of the current crazy behaviour.
I suspect, when still having the foal around she was literally drained by her foal and was just to exhausted to do anything crazy. Foal went off and the weather turned, mare went nuts.

I put the sale on hold, wouldn't be smart to sell her now.
I want her to have a good life and enjoy working and caring with and for her, thats why I bought her in the first place.
Selling to her someone with a chance of ending up in a sausage wasn't my intention.

Looking into rescue organizations, I prefer having some severely abused pony or an ex-racehorse meant for slaughter there then my horse. My horse is taken care of and looked after, others are not so well off.

Any options of where to turn for answers?


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

How involved are you in your mare's day-to-day life would help. If you are full DIY or livery. If you see her / work her daily or a few times a week. Are you her primary caretaker etc? As for orgs I can't help you unless I missed what part of the world you're from (am UK). Glad you wont sell and are still searching for answers.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> Let a more experienced person get on and she will get naughty. Not crazy bucking like mine, the daughter, does, but just walking halfway up the fence so your leg gets squashed, going to fast/slow, laying down with rider on, standing still and eating grass on the side of the arena, jumping over the 4ft fence from a standstill with rider on, jumping a 5ft fence because it was left there by someone.... these little crazy things, not mean just being annoying. Lunging is impossible because she just drags you around like a little flag(so daughter so mom....)


These to me don't sound like 'crazy' things at all, but that the horse is not stupid(& maybe has a sense of humour!) and has learned people will let her squash their legs on fences(and get a good reaction), that she doesn't have to go a consistent speed, that she can lie down, or stop & eat when she likes, rider or not, that she can jump out of places... And lunging - again, has she even been *taught* to lunge? Of course, if she doesn't know what's what, and you don't know what's what, so you allow her to drag you round, then that's what she will know about lunging. So it sounds to me that the old mare has had a lot of inconsistent, ineffective handling under her belt & likely not that much good training either. So it is extremely likely the fault of the handlers/trainers of these animals, not that they are innately 'crazy' or such themselves.



> Sooo the craziness runs in the family, this does explain it a little bit.


No. Until you totally rule out 'environmental factors' - that is, training, management, diet, etc - you cannot possibly assume it's genetic.



> She doesn't hear it in the pasture, but in at the wash/groom place just outside of the stable she gets a near heartattack.


She may hear it fine in the paddock, but when she is already worried about being in that place, then any little 'straw' can be enough to 'break the camel'.



> I suspect, when still having the foal around she was literally drained by her foal and was just to exhausted to do anything crazy. Foal went off and the weather turned, mare went nuts.


Yeah if she was previously fine(tho you said elsewhere she's always been 'crazy'??), there's a big hint that it is likely something physical, whether pain or otherwise. Don't think it's just related to energy by the sound of it, but nutritional imbalance/deficiency could well be a cause. Particularly too high potassium & too low magnesium are common causes of 'craziness'.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

The difference in behavior with and without foal/breastfeeding could also be a hormonal thing, not just lack of energy. Or even a problem in her reproductive organs which was brought on when her hormones changed after weaning. I am not sure how you would go about checking all of that out, but a vet will be able to tell you.


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## MymareIsSweetButPsycho (Feb 16, 2020)

Vet will come by on tuesday. 
Will do a complete bloodwork, and check for any kind of lameness/soreness/pain.
If this comes out clean, perhaps scanning her intestines thoroughly at a clinic...
Expensive as hell but I'll try it anyway.

Her mom, the old mare has always stood at the same lesson barn.
With most lessonbarns a typical horse carries about a 30 different people on a weekly basis. Nothing consistent. Since I lease her fulltime, I am the only one who rides her and the primary caregiver. She has really opened up to me and she just follows me around blindly whereever. Such a crazy deep bond... Even taught her to ride with a neckrope. 
But still, an inexperienced person will have a hard time with her sense of humour...

I was thinking, since my horsie is so insanely sensitive and so reactive. Maybe she will be a good therapyhorse... I am afraid that she is too sensitive to put up with so many human emotions fired her way.

Someone at my old barn who I am still great friends with does work with ptsd and horses. Don't know the exact name but the horse is used as a mirror for the client. In addition she is a behavioural expert with human amd animal.
She asked if she could try it out with my horse, well why not maybe it works...


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## MymareIsSweetButPsycho (Feb 16, 2020)

Full bloodwork is done.
NOTHING turned up.
The vet suspected hormonal problems and is a bit surprised nothing came up. 
The next step is.... idk.

She isn't lame or in obvious pain, "just" her crazy behaviour.

Last week whilst mucking the paddock, 2 other horses(not her) were messing around playing and biting each other next to me and one bumped into me. 
My horse trotted over and stood between the bumping horse and me. I was like ???? Why what???? 
The horse who bumped tried to walk up to me in a calm manner, my horse with ears flat bit him in his neck HARD and turned her butt towards him, be backed off.

Can this "protective" behaviour be relatable to all the other things? She has it done it only once so far?

I have no idea anymore, feel free to throw suggestions to me...


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this has already been covered, but has she been checked for ulcers? And by checked I mean actually scoped? Sudden huge volatile changes in behaviour scream ULCERS to me. If it's indeterminate or you can't put the money into her being scoped, a course of treatment for them in case she does have them isn't going to hurt her and could definitely help.

Also, have you tried just... hanging out with her? Time together with zero pressure. Just taking her out and hand-grazing her and grooming her a little. No work, no "training," just chilling out. Some horses feel like they can never just "be" with people, and have their guard up constantly and are way more reactive because of it.

I completely agree about investing in a Warwick Schiller subscription for a month. The series on the rearing eventing mare would be extremely useful for you. It doesn't matter whether or not the undesired behaviours are the exact same. The underlying approach to dealing with an anxious/up/"disrespectful" horse would be the same.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> Full bloodwork is done.
> NOTHING turned up.
> The vet suspected hormonal problems and is a bit surprised nothing came up.
> The next step is.... idk.
> ...





not sure if that is protective behavior so much as 'ownership' behavior. you horse may figure that you are hers, so to speak, and will push away any horse that she thinks is an interloper. One can see this often when a a third horse tries to get close to one of a bonded pair of horses. One of the pair will try to fight off the interloper


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> Can this "protective" behaviour be relatable to all the other things? She has it done it only once so far?
> 
> I have no idea anymore, feel free to throw suggestions to me...


In my limited experience, a horse acts protective of someone it considers to be in its group and in need of protection AND subservient to it. The horse cares about you, but considers you in need of its protection because you are weaker or whatever. I've seen this with two of my horses. My Pony, when I had had him for a couple of months, would act protective of me. But he considered himself dominant over me. Once I flipped that relationship to where I was the dominant partner, he stopped being so protective of me. In fact, part of what flipped it was me actively being protective of him, when necessary. 

I had a similar thing happen with Teddy. Early in our relationship, we had a good relationship going and he considered me the boss. But one day I let him protect me. The next day it was like a switch was flipped, with him visibly confused over who was now the boss. We got past that really quickly, because he does not want to be the boss of a human, but it was striking how quickly it happened.

Someone told me at the time that this was the case (horses are protective of those who are subservient to them) and I didn't believe it then, but experience has shown it to be true in my case. Now I take any opportunity I can to "protect" my horses, which reminds them in a nice way that they are subservient and they can look to me for protection (and leadership).

It's good that she protected you -- it means she understands that you two are part of the same "herd" and have a relationship. But, again in my experience, it also shows that she thinks you are weaker and therefore in need of protection.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

MymareIsSweetButPsycho said:


> She's is know to be very very stubborn and also she is notorious for her killer bucks.
> 
> Before I got her she has been in good hands all her life, however people where afraid off her "issues" and they just had her out in the pasture.
> 
> ...


If you have totally lost it with this horse, maybe you should sell her, give her away, or have her humanely put down. You are being abusive. She is abusing you back. Somebody could get killed and it might be you. The opportunity to ride a horse you don't like is not something that you should die over.


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## MymareIsSweetButPsycho (Feb 16, 2020)

Sooo my horse ows me and thinks she is my boss atm....
Well, thats not so great.
If I just walk in the paddock she often walks up to me and will be in a 10ft range all the time, If I am mucking out she loses interest and she goes away. No problem if I pet the other horses though, even if she is standing next to me.

Furthermore, I do hang out with her in the paddock atm. Did not take her out of the paddock in weeks though. Vet did bloodwork just right there.
Might try to lead her to the washplace this week. Or at least outside of that fence, she already gets nervous when you try that...

To answer:
In the beginning (first 3/4 months) she was actually a very kind and sweet mare. She still had a foal then, foal was taking up a lot of her attention. Foal also sucked her dry and was massive compared to her.
Once the foal was weaned, it went downhill with her and our relationship.
For the dressage competition, it was a low level consisting of only walk/trot not even cantering. She wasn't drugged even though I did not own her back then.

I might sell her, first I want to know why she went nuts.

Yes I have done wrong things, heavy bit, whips, hit her even. Not proud in the slightest.

I bought her because I likes how she was in the beginning, I did not she had crazy behaviour in the past but I thought that was over since she had a foal and was already getting older.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

I’m sorry if it’s already been said, but have you tried doing ground work in the field? If she is ok in the field, it could be a case of extreme herd sourness. And maybe it was brought on by the weaning (her foal being taken away)?

There is a Warwick Schiller video on barn sourness but it might work here as well. Take her out of the field only as far as you know she wouldn’t get upset, even if it’s just one meter. Do it a few times. Then, very gradually increase the distance, literally by a meter each trip. Do it many times until you reach the point you wanted to get to. Maybe start of with a very short distance in the beginning. At the furthest point- reward her. He lets the horse graze but it might not be enough for your mare because she’s out all the time. Give her carrots maybe. Maybe spread out carrots on the ground leading away from the field and let her have one on each trip.

I hope you manage to work it out it it sounds like it will take a lot of repetition. Best of luck.


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## Jetblack4 (Aug 8, 2020)

This was one of the most amazing posts I have read. It makes PERFECT sense. I have learned a lot even from your short paragraphs. I am now looking into that trainer you suggested too. Thanks!


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