# Please stop teaching your horses to bow like this!



## CloudsMystique

It's extremely hard on their front legs, and it makes them very unbalanced while they're bowing. They can easily strain the muscles or tendons in their front legs or shoulders, or even fall over.


Teach them to do it like this:










It's SO easy. All you have to do is lift their front leg like you're going to pick their hoof, and then do exactly what you're doing now! Just hold their leg bent while they go down. After you do this for a while, they'll do it by themselves. It's really not that difficult, and your horse will thank you. He will also be more willing to perform the trick.


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## smrobs

Someday, I will HAVE to teach mine to bow so that I can get on. Will do it like the second horse though. The first just _looks_ uncomfortable.

Completely off topic but the mane on that gray is absolutely _stunning!!!_


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## Goddess of Judecca

Oh god. Whoever taught their horse to bow like the former should be beaten with a brick.


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## Lori1983

Ugh...Clouds, I wasn't even aware that people did this. It looks ridiculous.


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## CloudsMystique

smrobs said:


> Someday, I will HAVE to teach mine to bow so that I can get on. Will do it like the second horse though. The first just _looks_ uncomfortable.


It's a great trick, especially if you trail ride a lot. If you ever get hurt on the trail and need help getting on, it makes it a lot easier. Or if you trail ride bareback and don't have a log or fence to stand on. I trail ride a lot... by myself AND bareback, so I'm planning on teaching my mare to lay down in case I break my leg or something and need to ride back to the barn.



smrobs said:


> Completely off topic but the mane on that gray is absolutely _stunning!!!_


Oh my god, I know! I would love to know how to do that.



Goddess of Judecca said:


> Oh god. Whoever taught their horse to bow like the former should be beaten with a brick.





Lori1983 said:


> Ugh...Clouds, I wasn't even aware that people did this. It looks ridiculous.


Yeah, I know... I've seen several people actually on this forum who've done it like that, so that's why I decided to post this.


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## CloudsMystique

Oh, and another thing - Don't do it on gravel or pavement! This should be common sense, but I've seen it done so many times.


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## BaliDoll

wow... that looks painful


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## Erin_And_Jasper

my horse was trained to do it the first way. im going to reteach him so it wont hurt my baby


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## CloudsMystique

Erin_And_Jasper said:


> my horse was trained to do it the first way. im going to reteach him so it wont hurt my baby



Good, I'm glad : ]


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## smrobs

CloudsMystique said:


> It's a great trick, especially if you trail ride a lot. If you ever get hurt on the trail and need help getting on, it makes it a lot easier. Or if you trail ride bareback and don't have a log or fence to stand on. I trail ride a lot... by myself AND bareback, so I'm planning on teaching my mare to lay down in case I break my leg or something and need to ride back to the barn.


 
Mine is not so much that I worry about getting hurt (though that is an idea), it's that my future horses are much taller than I will be able to vault onto. John right now is 18hh and my goal is to be able to ride him around bareback and I have little doubt that Rafe will be no less than 17hh. Bareback is my main mode of transport in winter cause it is so much warmer and I can't exactly carry a ladder around with me :lol:. I may start working on that with John and Dobe, Rafe can wait. He is still getting the whole "hold up your feet for the farrier" thing down and I don't want to confuse him.


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## CloudsMystique

smrobs said:


> Mine is not so much that I worry about getting hurt (though that is an idea), it's that my future horses are much taller than I will be able to vault onto. John right now is 18hh and my goal is to be able to ride him around bareback and I have little doubt that Rafe will be no less than 17hh. Bareback is my main mode of transport in winter cause it is so much warmer and I can't exactly carry a ladder around with me :lol:. I may start working on that with John and Dobe, Rafe can wait. He is still getting the whole "hold up your feet for the farrier" thing down and I don't want to confuse him.



Haha, that's true. I have a 13.3hh gelding and I can get up on him bareback just by jumping up and doing this on his back: http://aspiregym.com/jenna on bars.JPG

Then I can swing my leg around from there.

My mare is a little bigger (15.1) and to get up on her I have to place her strategically next to a hill, and even then it takes me like 5 tries to get on her. I couldn't imagine having an 18hh horse! I'm only 5'3 : /


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## smrobs

Well, I'm 5'5 and I have a hard enough time with 14.3 hh Dobe. If he is even slightly uphill, there is no chance. I have hell getting on John even when he is saddled so there is no chance bareback without either a barrel to stand on or someone to give me a leg up . I do love riding him though, it reminds me of when I was a little girl riding my 16hh QH. Same basic proportions LOL. And it is a very empowering feeling being head and shoulders (literally) above everyone else with 2000 pounds of pure power under you. Even if it is still incredibly green broke power :?.


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## mom2pride

I've ALWAYS taught a "one knee" bow, because it is so much easier to train, for one...and two, it is so much easier on the horse. It is also very easy to teach the 'lay down' from the one knee bow...I can't see being able to teach 'down' from the first position, which looks SOOOOOO uncomfortable!


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## CloudsMystique

smrobs said:


> Well, I'm 5'5 and I have a hard enough time with 14.3 hh Dobe. If he is even slightly uphill, there is no chance. I have hell getting on John even when he is saddled so there is no chance bareback without either a barrel to stand on or someone to give me a leg up . I do love riding him though, it reminds me of when I was a little girl riding my 16hh QH. Same basic proportions LOL. And it is a very empowering feeling being head and shoulders (literally) above everyone else with 2000 pounds of pure power under you. Even if it is still incredibly green broke power :?.



Haha, I bet. I would love to have a draft someday. My boyfriend wants to get one when he get a horse (he's 6'2). The biggest horse I've had was a 16.3hh Saddlebred. Luckily he parked out, because I was only about 5' when I had him!


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## smrobs

Come on up and you can start Bessie for me . I think she will be a much smoother ride than John is. She is almost as tall and much wider but her gaits seem a lot flatter.


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## CloudsMystique

smrobs said:


> Come on up and you can start Bessie for me . I think she will be a much smoother ride than John is. She is almost as tall and much wider but her gaits seem a lot flatter.


Ah, I'd love to if only I lived closer! She's adorable : ]


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## riccil0ve

I just taught my yearling how to bow. On ONE knee. She picked it up really quick, and I have been making sure to alternate between just picking up her foot and putting it down and picking up her foot and asking for the bow. I can't have her getting confused. The next step is to teach her the other side, and then I will teach her to "flop." =]

My mare, though, I stretch out her back by putting a treat between her legs, but she always gets the treat before she gets on her toes. She tries sometimes, but I'm pretty quick to give her an "Ahh!" It just seems bad. Ugh.


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## TwisterRush

That looks soooo uncomfortable, and the 2nd pose looks much more comfortable on the horse all around. 
I agree the mane on the lipizzaner is stunning ! (am i right? a lipizzaner? and i probably spelt that wrong !) 
But anyways, I will definitally have to teach my horse that lol, i Am 5'4" almost 5'5" Like just a few inches off. 
So i find it particularily hard to just go and JUMP up on my horse lol, i lost my flexibility atm ! But hopefully i can train myself to just jump up on a horse ! XD 
Thank you for the suggestion of that, i never would have even thought about it !


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## CloudsMystique

TwisterRush said:


> That looks soooo uncomfortable, and the 2nd pose looks much more comfortable on the horse all around.
> I agree the mane on the lipizzaner is stunning ! (am i right? a lipizzaner? and i probably spelt that wrong !)
> But anyways, I will definitally have to teach my horse that lol, i Am 5'4" almost 5'5" Like just a few inches off.
> So i find it particularily hard to just go and JUMP up on my horse lol, i lost my flexibility atm ! But hopefully i can train myself to just jump up on a horse ! XD
> Thank you for the suggestion of that, i never would have even thought about it !



Good luck!

The horse in the picture is actually an Andalusian that was performing at the Lipizzan Stallion tour.


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## Lucara

I can't imagine that the first version of bowing is good on the tips of their hooves either. I dont exactly think their built to stand on their tippy toes.

I'd love to teach Duchess to bow (I may play around with that a bit today Lol) but I'd never want her to look like that 

I have to agree though. I've seen quite a few people on here who've taught their horses to bow like that. I'm surprised none of them have chimed in at all.


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## CuteLilKatieKat

So, how exactly do you teach the bow? (the correct bow, of coarse) :?


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## FGRanch

It's actually not that bad for them, or bad for them at all. 

However it's not a bow it's a stretch (the equine massage therapist will sometimes use) but you have to slowly work them into stretching them that much.


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## strawberrypaint

ya my old trainer does that to her horses every day to "strech" the horses backs but it always looked like it hurt it never occured to me how bad it was so i am glad i am out of there.


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## FGRanch

It doesn't actually hurt if you condition the horse.


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## MIEventer

Let me step in and speak up for a moment.

To the OP - before you make a post about something like this - make sure you are educated on the information first.

THIS IS NOT BOWING - THIS IS THE CARROT STRETCH!!! 










This is what I do with my horse EVERY DAY. Before and after I ride with a cookie because it is a VERY IMPORTANT stretch to do with your horse to aid them in building a topline and stretching their buttox muscles, back muscles and neck muscles before and after a ride.

This is given to clients of Equine Chiropractors.

The "Nose Between Front Legs" stretch is one of 7 important stretches to do with your horse on a daily basis.


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## CloudsMystique

Okay... I have worked with chiropractors stretching horses with sore backs, and I don't think you're supposed to make them bend down so far that their legs bend funny like that. It might be good for their back, but it canNOT be good for their front legs.

That's not JUST a "carrot stretch"... There are a LOT of people who make their horses bow that way.


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## FGRanch

It's a carrot stretch that they are calling a bow.


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## MIEventer

> but it canNOT be good for their front legs.


And Western Pleasure is good for their front legs? Jumping? Eventing? Barrel Racing? Racing? Shall I go on?

Show me proof that doing the Carrot Stretch is bad for their front legs.

Lets see veterinary documenation - or is this just an assumption you are coming up with?


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## CloudsMystique

Uh, so your logic is that because they already do things that might be bad for their front legs, it's okay to do even more things that might be bad for them? I don't know where you're trying to go with that...

I'm not denying that it's good for their back. I'm sure it is. I just don't think it looks like it's good for their front legs, and a lot of people have agreed with me.

So... Where exactly is your veterinary documentation that this particular stretch is NOT bad for their front legs? Or are you just *assuming *that?


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

I definately agree it is great for their back.... to a certain degree. The point that horse is at, OUCH! You can see then strain in it's legs! I do the between the legs stretch as well, but not to the point my horse is straining his legs.


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## CloudsMystique

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> I definately agree it is great for their back.... to a certain degree. The point that horse is at, OUCH! You can see then strain in it's legs! I do the between the legs stretch as well, but not to the point my horse is straining his legs.



I completely agree. My gelding has a bad back, and I stretch it every day, but not as far down. I would NEVER force him to bend his legs like that on a regular basis. It looks so bad.


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## MIEventer

You cannot force your horse to do that. When I hold Nelson's cookie under him, he'll stop when he doesn't want to stretch that far. 

So - you cannot FORCE a horse to stretch that far if they don't want to, nor can.


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## CloudsMystique

By holding a cookie between his legs, you are "persuading" him to do something he doesn't want to do. Let's not get caught up in semantics. It's irrelevant.


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## ChingazMyBoy

I was taught to do it like that, but when I was told it was wrong I stopped and Im not teaching him to bow the proper way.


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## speedy da fish

yes! that way in the 1st pic is not the way to do it , its hard for them and they can hurt themselves getting back up again


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## MIEventer

Sorry. That exercise has been given to me by Equine Chiropractics.

Lets see your Veterinarian Documentation showing studdies and proof that having your horse do the carrot stretch is hurting your horse.

This is only an opinion based on a picture.


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## riccil0ve

I also stretch my horse's back that way, but I never let her get on her tippytoes like that. It LOOKS uncomfortable, and I don't care if anyone has proof of anything, there's no way in hell I'm risking my horse's legs. She stretches just fine, without looking like that.


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## Barrelracer Up

Only the right front has the "tippy toe" look going and that is due to him balancing his weight on the rear and the left front. 
I have used this stretch on my horses and they will only go this extreme when they have done it a while and are conditioned for it.

I don't see anything wrong with stretching them like this. You cannot make a horse do something he is not physically capable of doing.

I can't touch my toes without slightly bending my knees - if I conditioned myself I could.

I have seen horses get in similar stances trying to reach grass under a fence or corral panel. Obviously their head wasn't between their legs, but they had their stance pretty much the same and the side of their head laying on the ground, half the face under the fence with the lip trying to reach the furtherest blade of grass.

I also teach my horses to bow in the manner the OP is terming "appropriate"


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## Barrelracer Up

I bet the horse in the photo was just about to tuck that right foot under himself like a proper bow when the photo was snapped.


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## xLaurenOscarx

this is the way I do Oscars stretches which Oscars physiotherapist (sp?) told me to do with him.
I'm going 2 teach him how to bow lyk the 2nd picture but I'm still doing his stretches. .
He can go further back now when stretching but as others said you can't force a horse to stretch further than he wants! If I ask Oscar to stretch ack further than physically impossible he'll just put his head up again and try again but I know he's just saying "Oh cant do that one I'l try another way though" because he's such a tryer!


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## Erin_And_Jasper

^thats the way jasper does it too


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## MIEventer

This is how I have my guy do his Carrot Stretches. As shown to me by my horses Chiro - whom is our Veterinarian.










*this is my Husband and his horse doing their stretches*


> He can go further back now when stretching but as others said you can't force a horse to stretch further than he wants! If I ask Oscar to stretch ack further than physically impossible he'll just put his head up again and try again but I know he's just saying "Oh cant do that one I'l try another way though" because he's such a tryer!


Exactly. Same with Nelson. If Nelson doesn't want to stretch that far, he wont - period. If it is putting him in any pain or any strain, he wont do it - period.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Quite frankly, I would like to see the research that shows the first position is worse then the second one. Regardless how you hash it, I fail to see how a horse going down on a bony knee and bearing that much weight is ok and yet a tippy toe stretch is not.

I trained Jynx to bow the second way, but if I don't pick her leg up for her, she'll instantly do a tippy toe stretch like the first horse. Possibly because it's more comfortable for her?

I don't see how it's "semantics". You can encourage a horse with a treat, you can't force them to do something that hurts. That's like saying I can slap my horse in the face every day but if I give her a treat right after, she'll never become head shy. Doesn't quite work that way. Discomfort is discomfort, and horses aren't going to hurt themselves for a cookie. My horses won't zap themselves on the electric fence even if I shake a bucket of grain under their nose. I don't see how this is any different. If it hurt, they wouldn't do it.


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## MIEventer

> Quite frankly, I would like to see the research that shows the first position is worse then the second one. Regardless how you hash it, I fail to see how a horse going down on a bony knee and bearing that much weight is ok and yet a tippy toe stretch is not.
> 
> I trained Jynx to bow the second way, but if I don't pick her leg up for her, she'll instantly do a tippy toe stretch like the first horse. Possibly because it's more comfortable for her?
> 
> I don't see how it's "semantics". You can encourage a horse with a treat, you can't force them to do something that hurts. That's like saying I can slap my horse in the face every day but if I give her a treat right after, she'll never become head shy. Doesn't quite work that way. Discomfort is discomfort, and horses aren't going to hurt themselves for a cookie. My horses won't zap themselves on the electric fence even if I shake a bucket of grain under their nose. I don't see how this is any different. If it hurt, they wouldn't do it




HA HA HA HA HA HA! GREAT POST! You have me chuckling over here. Well said!


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## CloudsMystique

MIEventer said:


> Sorry. That exercise has been given to me by Equine Chiropractics.
> 
> Lets see your Veterinarian Documentation showing studdies and proof that having your horse do the carrot stretch is hurting your horse.
> 
> This is only an opinion based on a picture.


Did your chiropractor specifically tell you to make him go down that far? Because mine sure didn't.

Again with the veterinarian documentation. I never claimed to have any. I don't think the stretch is bad for your horse IF you don't make them bend down too far.




Barrelracer Up said:


> Only the right front has the "tippy toe" look going and that is due to him balancing his weight on the rear and the left front.
> 
> I have used this stretch on my horses and they will only go this extreme when they have done it a while and are conditioned for it.
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with stretching them like this. You cannot make a horse do something he is not physically capable of doing.
> 
> I can't touch my toes without slightly bending my knees - if I conditioned myself I could.
> 
> I have seen horses get in similar stances trying to reach grass under a fence or corral panel. Obviously their head wasn't between their legs, but they had their stance pretty much the same and the side of their head laying on the ground, half the face under the fence with the lip trying to reach the furtherest blade of grass.
> 
> I also teach my horses to bow in the manner the OP is terming "appropriate"


Horses don't always know what's best for them. That's why we have to put them on stall rest if they have an injury... Because if we turned them out, they'd run around and injure themselves further. You can't always trust your horse when it comes to his health.

In fact, here's a picture of MY horse doing it in the pasture. She actually has one of her knees bent, but she's still straining her other leg. Just because she's doing it in the pasture doesn't mean it's good for her. Horses hurt themselves in the pasture all the time...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/3111520223_b741f754d6_b.jpg




Barrelracer Up said:


> I bet the horse in the photo was just about to tuck that right foot under himself like a proper bow when the photo was snapped.


Sorry, but that's not possible to do when they're already bent down that far. Trust me. My mare has tried to do it when she starts to bow the wrong way and tries to correct herself. She has to get up and go back down the right way. It's not a coincidence that so many people have accidentally snapped the picture before their horse was all the way down. People DO teach their horses to bow like that.





MIEventer said:


> This is how I have my guy do his Carrot Stretches. As shown to me by my horses Chiro - whom is our Veterinarian.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *this is my Husband and his horse doing their stretches*


And how is that anything like the first picture? That's how I stretch my gelding's back. Your husband's horse's front legs look perfectly comfortable. You can even tell your husband's horse is more comfortable than the horse in the first picture by looking at his back legs. His legs look the same as they do when he's standing. The chestnut horse has his hind legs close together and under his belly. He's uncomfortable and unbalanced.





MacabreMikolaj said:


> Quite frankly, I would like to see the research that shows the first position is worse then the second one. Regardless how you hash it, I fail to see how a horse going down on a bony knee and bearing that much weight is ok and yet a tippy toe stretch is not.


Horses go down on their knees EVERY time they lay down. Their knees are made to handle their weight. Their front legs are NOT made to bend like that.



MacabreMikolaj said:


> I trained Jynx to bow the second way, but if I don't pick her leg up for her, she'll instantly do a tippy toe stretch like the first horse. Possibly because it's more comfortable for her?


How do you know it's more comfortable, and not just easier?



MacabreMikolaj said:


> I don't see how it's "semantics". You can encourage a horse with a treat, you can't force them to do something that hurts. That's like saying I can slap my horse in the face every day but if I give her a treat right after, she'll never become head shy. Doesn't quite work that way. Discomfort is discomfort, and horses aren't going to hurt themselves for a cookie. My horses won't zap themselves on the electric fence even if I shake a bucket of grain under their nose. I don't see how this is any different. If it hurt, they wouldn't do it.


It doesn't hurt until they pull a muscle... or whatever it might be. You can work a horse too hard, push him past his limits, and cause him to pull a muscle, right? How is that any different?


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## barebackcowgirl99

thanks for the hint................. i am teaching my horse to bow the right way like that ways that u said to teach them, that horses mane looks very beautiful
=)


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## eventerdrew

I do stretches with my horses much like Lauren does with Oscar and MIEventer's husband does with his horse. They love to stretch their necks that way and it is great for their backs. I especially do it in the winter before a ride and stretch out their ligaments as well.

BUT... I would NEVER do it to the degree of the original picture. That looks uncomfortable.


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## 1dog3cats17rodents

MIE- that looks fine. He is using his back and not putting strain on his legs. The horse in the OP is bending his legs and taking all the strain onto the legs, not stretching the back


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## xEquestrianx

Just a question...
I'm teaching Cheyenne to bow, (the second way of course) and she will do everything, but drop to her knee. She isn't afraid to lay down or anything, so I know it's not a trust issue, but she won't drop down...any tips?


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## Visibre

Well, my horses are bowing this way:

(before


(after some training)








http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijken/1880565.html 


and this way:



http://queelens.jalbum.net/Streekdagen 09/slides/21.jpg


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## Sunny06

Although the first pic looks really unbalanced, dosen't the second one put a lot of pressure on the knee?


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## CloudsMystique

Sunny06 said:


> Although the first pic looks really unbalanced, dosen't the second one put a lot of pressure on the knee?


Not any more than it does to lay down.


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## EveningShadows

I understand that a horse uses its knee as a stepping stone to laying down...but it's just that. How often to you glance out and see your horse HOLDING that pose? Never. They use their knee for a split second to lower themselves down enough to lay down without flopping over. They don't go to their knee and ponder if they want to go down...it's instantaneous. 

Don't get me wrong, none of my horses bow. If I trained them to do so, I'd opt for the second method anyway, but to say the first way is out and out WRONG is not fair. The OP pic is to the extreme and I don't think all horse people push it that far - but I don't think it's hurting him. Awkward and slightly uncomfortable looking yes...but I don't see any horse putting themselves in pain for a cookie.


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## Tennessee

That first picture looks **** painful, and I don't care what yo equine chiropractor said or what kind of "veterinary documentation" you got.

Carrot stretching is quite ok, but that first picture is straining the horse.


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## MIEventer

Alright Tennesee - 

Then preach to Barrel Racers, preach to Eventers, Hunter/Jumpers, Reiners, Cutters and WP people for every time they use their horses, TB racers, Standardbred Racers and all those who are out jumping their Full Drafts - they are putting their horses legs and joints in strenuous situations every single time they do these sports with their horses.

Which by the way, you'd never see the horse doing on their own. 


Give me a flippin' break. 

This whole rediculous thread was started on an opinion, and that only of an opinion.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Yeah I'm agreeing with MIEventer on this one. If horses can withstand the unbelieveable pressure and strain on joints and tissue when being involved in any number of equine sports we participate in, I'm having a LOT of trouble understanding exactly what is so "wrong" about this.

Don't get me wrong, if you dig up some actual research on the topic I'll happily concede. But "looking" painful and being painful are two entirely different things. I'm really curious where anybody is getting their information from about this being damaging to legs. If it's not from research, exactly what logic are you applying to conclude that this is deterimental to the horse? Just the fact of appearance? I'm just honestly not understanding exactly what makes the first picture "bad" - what body part are they putting strain on?

As for the one knee bow I think comparing it to laying down is a little absurd. As Shay-la said, horses briefly drop to their knees on their WAY down. I'm not saying a one knee bow is damaging, again I have no concrete evidence in either way, I'm just confused how one causes strain and one doesn't. 

Heck, for that matter, based on the first picture, how many of you have watched foals graze? They regularly enter that identical pose because their legs are so much longer then their necks! I always see foals doing the tippy toe stance to grab at grass.


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## CrazyChester

Maybe...We should just stop teaching horses to bow, peroid. What benefits does it have? Other then if you go trail riding and your hurt and you need to get back on, it really has none what so ever. Instead of teaching them to bow, you could get them to lay down on command and then get on that way? Thats just my opinion though.

The horses doing the 'carrot stretch' look completly comfortable, I think it was just the timing of the photo number 1 that it doesn't for that horse. If a Chiro or Vet said it was OK..then it must be. 

Again. Just my opinion.


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## Tennessee

CrazyChester said:


> *Maybe...We should just stop teaching horses to bow, peroid.*


I was actually going to say the same thing.  So, agreed.


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## MIEventer

I did a GOOGLE search and typed in "Carrot Stretch" and clicked on IMAGES instead of "web" - and found the 1st picture posted, directly under the topic and demonstrations of Carrot Stretches.

I then did a GOOGLE search for "Horse Bowing" and didn't find that picture anywhere under that topic.

So, the first picture isn't even an attempt at BOWING what-so-ever so, then that first picture doesn't even belong in this topic of teaching a horse to bow properly.

So what is it? Should we be discussing how to teach a carrot stretch properly? Or Bowing?

Neither pictures go together. Both pictures have to do with two competely different topics.

First picture was used way out of context and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of BOWING.


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## CloudsMystique

MIEventer said:


> I did a GOOGLE search and typed in "Carrot Stretch" and clicked on IMAGES instead of "web" - and found the 1st picture posted, directly under the topic and demonstrations of Carrot Stretches.
> 
> I then did a GOOGLE search for "Horse Bowing" and didn't find that picture anywhere under that topic.
> 
> So, the first picture isn't even an attempt at BOWING what-so-ever so, then that first picture doesn't even belong in this topic of teaching a horse to bow properly.
> 
> So what is it? Should we be discussing how to teach a carrot stretch properly? Or Bowing?
> 
> Neither pictures go together. Both pictures have to do with two competely different topics.
> 
> First picture was used way out of context and has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of BOWING.




I did a Google search for carrot stretch and I don't see the first picture at all. I can assure you I was not searching for carrot stretches when I found the picture. I can't even believe that you saw it. What page was it on? I went 20 pages back and did not see it at all.

The reason you can't find the picture on Google is because I found it on Flickr. As you can see, the link says FLICKR: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3335/3333887083_a389cf5222.jpg

Are you trying to deny that people teach their horses to bow that way? EVERY time there's a picture of a horse doing that, it's a carrot stretch?

What's all this, then?
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/trick-training-thread-37060/#post415531
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-pictures/my-amazing-wonderful-bowing-pony-35506/#post397480
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-pictures/bowing-34619/#post386498
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/bowing-34712/#post387981






A LOT of people teach their horses to bow like that. I've seen it all over the internet (with the word "bow," not "carrot stretch"), and I've seen it in real life. And whether the horse is doing a carrot stretch or a bow is irrelevant. The point is, having your horse's legs crumpled up like that does NOT look comfortable or safe. If you don't want your horse to go down on one knee (even though the weight is being placed on the entire lower leg, from the hoof to the knee - not JUST the knee), you should teach him to straighten out his front legs, like this:









That way, the horse uses his back and his hind legs as well as his front legs to balance.


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## smrobs

Okay guys, chill.

So the OP believes that the first horse is unbalanced and could be doing damage to it's front legs. That's fine, that is an opinion.

Some of the other posters believe that it's okay and the horse looks perfectly comfortable. That's fine, that is an opinion.

The fact of the matter is that unless we were there when the picture was taken to see how the horse was acting at all other times during the bow/stretch, then we can't possibly know if it was in fact uncomfortable or if the horse was doing damage or not. Lets all just take a step back and breathe.


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## xLaurenOscarx

CloudsMystique said:


> YouTube - bowing horse... sonny
> 
> 
> A LOT of people teach their horses to bow like that. I've seen it all over the internet (with the word "bow," not "carrot stretch"), and I've seen it in real life. And whether the horse is doing a carrot stretch or a bow is irrelevant. The point is, having your horse's legs crumpled up like that does NOT look comfortable or safe. If you don't want your horse to go down on one knee (even though the weight is being placed on the entire lower leg, from the hoof to the knee - not JUST the knee), you should teach him to straighten out his front legs, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That way, the horse uses his back and his hind legs as well as his front legs to balance.


The horse in the video doenst look all that uncomfortable doing it! Coz if he did garenteed he wouldn't do it! Horses arent stupid they're very cleve and they'd try find another way 2 get the treat!

That last picture of the black looks uncomfortable in my opinion. all the weight goes onto the front legs. Would that not make it easier to pull tendons or anything in the front legs? In my opinion I rather the way i do it.


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## FGRanch

Okay I am an Equine MT and we were trained to streth the horses that far, AFTER CONDITIONING! 

MIEventer that is a beautiful stretch, he looks wonderful!


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## MIEventer

I did a GOOGLE search again for "Carrot Stretch" and the same picture is on the page of IMAGES again:

Carrot Stretch - Google Images

Then I typed again, in GOOGLE - Carrot Stretches 

and got it again

Carrot Stretches - Google Images


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## kodemiester

smrobs said:


> Someday, I will HAVE to teach mine to bow so that I can get on. Will do it like the second horse though. The first just _looks_ uncomfortable.
> 
> Completely off topic but the mane on that gray is absolutely _stunning!!!_


lol. It makes it so much easier!! I taught my buckskin mare how to do it, and she is very easy to get on now. She is 15.2-15.3 hh, I'm around 5'2 1/2 and can get on her easily bareback.


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## CloudsMystique

MIEventer said:


> I did a GOOGLE search again for "Carrot Stretch" and the same picture is on the page of IMAGES again:
> 
> Carrot Stretch - Google Images
> 
> Then I typed again, in GOOGLE - Carrot Stretches
> 
> and got it again
> 
> Carrot Stretches - Google Images



Ummm... Are you talking about this picture?
http://rosefarmequine.co.uk/Carrot Stretch TOPLINE.JPG

Because that's definitely not the picture from the OP, and tt's the only one I saw that looked remotely like it.


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## Sunny06

CloudsMystique said:


> Not any more than it does to lay down.


Rather a full 1000 pounds on it as opposed to distributed weight...?


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## CloudsMystique

Sunny06 said:


> Rather a full 1000 pounds on it as opposed to distributed weight...?




How is that a full 1000 pounds? Are the hind legs, the other front leg, and the rest of the bent lower leg floating in the air? It's distributed...


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## wild_spot

> I did a GOOGLE search again for "Carrot Stretch" and the same picture is on the page of IMAGES again:
> 
> Carrot Stretch - Google Images
> 
> Then I typed again, in GOOGLE - Carrot Stretches
> 
> and got it again
> 
> Carrot Stretches - Google Images


Maybe my eyes are bad, but I don't see the picture on either of those pages...


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## MIEventer

> Ummm... Are you talking about this picture?
> http://rosefarmequine.co.uk/Carrot%2...%20TOPLINE.JPG
> 
> Because that's definitely not the picture from the OP, and tt's the only one I saw that looked remotely like it.


Ah. Yes, that is the picture I found on every GOOGLE search I did for Carrot Stretches. And you are right, not the same picture. My mistake.

But I still stand by what I've already been saying.


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## jillybean1

well here is an example of my boy bowing, through this process i neverr forced him at all i just hold him in a posiion and wait for him to give.

i belive that the "wrong bow" is not bad for ur horse, i mean come on we put our horses through way, way more stess on there body then that seriously. tell me have u ever paused a video of a horse jumping when they go into the landing phase look at there fetlocks, now tell me that is not as "bad" as a simple "bow", but yes it is not a real bow and the one my boy is doing is easier on them and looks better.

then secon pic is the second phase on the bow, the lay, and reminding u i never forced him once he now lays with just a simple cue, which is my hand on his wither and if need be a tap on his hoof.


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## mls

FehrGroundRanch said:


> It's actually not that bad for them, or bad for them at all.
> 
> However it's not a bow it's a stretch (the equine massage therapist will sometimes use) but you have to slowly work them into stretching them that much.


THANK YOU! A voice of reason. I kept reading and hoping someone would step up.

It's called a carrot stretch. The horse doing it under it's own power - no force at all.


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## Marlea Warlea

poor pony, i get really emotional over things lie that, and seriously i started bawling


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## Frankiee

wow as if why in the worl would anyone teach there horse to bow hat why it looks so painful and horrible.


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## christopher

looks like he's taking his weight on his nose. the 2nd way looks much more dignified.


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## Alwaysbehind

wild_spot said:


> Maybe my eyes are bad, but I don't see the picture on either of those pages...


Obviously my eyes are bad too.


Can you people that do carrot stretches start another thread, please? I want to see all the various stretches.


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## Sarahandlola

Alwaysbehind said:


> Obviously my eyes are bad too.
> 
> 
> Can you people that do carrot stretches start another thread, please? I want to see all the various stretches.


Same with me! I would love to see the different stetches..


And I just gotta say maybe that first picture was captured at the wrong moment..Has any watched their horse in a field? They can do a lot of damage just playing. I seen my mare galloping downhill and striking out at a horse at the same time =/ 

And I also agree if the first picture is so bad then so is everything we do with horses.


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## mls

MIEventer said:


> To the OP - before you make a post about something like this - make sure you are educated on the information first.
> 
> THIS IS NOT BOWING - THIS IS THE CARROT STRETCH!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I do with my horse EVERY DAY. Before and after I ride with a cookie because it is a VERY IMPORTANT stretch to do with your horse to aid them in building a topline and stretching their buttox muscles, back muscles and neck muscles before and after a ride.
> 
> This is given to clients of Equine Chiropractors.
> 
> The "Nose Between Front Legs" stretch is one of 7 important stretches to do with your horse on a daily basis.


Thank you.

This is one of several stretches massage therapists and chiros recommend some clients do with their horses.

I for one never intend to teach any horse to 'bow'. They are not toys.

SORRY! I did not realize this thread was so old before I replied!


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## iridehorses

Never heard of carrot stretches before but found this: Today's Horse - Carrot-Practics Self Chiropractic for horses
and this: http://www.equestrianlife.com/videos/watch/246/Stretches-Carrot


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## TheRoughrider21

MIEventer said:


> You cannot force your horse to do that. When I hold Nelson's cookie under him, he'll stop when he doesn't want to stretch that far.
> 
> So - you cannot FORCE a horse to stretch that far if they don't want to, nor can.


Exactly. if a horse doesn't or can't stretch any farther, they won't. 



CloudsMystique said:


> By holding a cookie between his legs, you are "persuading" him to do something he doesn't want to do. Let's not get caught up in semantics. It's irrelevant.


Have you ever seen the neck stretches with carrots? You gradually work your way farther and farther, so they have to stretch a little farther each day. There's really no difference. If Lakota decides he can't stretch any farther, he won't. I don't the back stretches like you see her because Lakota's a little...dumb...and doesn't realize I have a treat in my hand. My dressage trainer has recommended I do these stretches with him and my equine chiropractor has me do them all the time because Lakota has a tendancy to get a tight neck and back.


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## Tymer

*cough* This thread is from 2009, people. Just making sure you know.


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## Hunter65

EveningShadows said:


> I understand that a horse uses its knee as a stepping stone to laying down...but it's just that. How often to you glance out and see your horse HOLDING that pose? Never. They use their knee for a split second to lower themselves down enough to lay down without flopping over. They don't go to their knee and ponder if they want to go down...it's instantaneous.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, none of my horses bow. If I trained them to do so, I'd opt for the second method anyway, but to say the first way is out and out WRONG is not fair. The OP pic is to the extreme and I don't think all horse people push it that far - but I don't think it's hurting him. Awkward and slightly uncomfortable looking yes...but I don't see any horse putting themselves in pain for a cookie.



My guy went down on both knees and stayed there to eat grass one time when I was sitting on him and wouldn't let him eat. Stayed on his knees with his bum in the air munching the grass.


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## Katze

Goddess of Judecca said:


> Oh god. Whoever taught their horse to bow like the former should be beaten with a brick.


I agree 100%, oh and your post made me LOL :rofl:, hubby thinks im losing it :mrgreen:


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## equiniphile

CloudsMystique said:


> Teach them to do it like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's SO easy. All you have to do is lift their front leg like you're going to pick their hoof, and then do exactly what you're doing now! Just hold their leg bent while they go down. After you do this for a while, they'll do it by themselves. It's really not that difficult, and your horse will thank you. He will also be more willing to perform the trick.


 This is how I taught the foals to bow, and I never used even a rope to do it either!


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## myyky

Can someone tell me HOW you actually do it? People asked a few times in this thread, and never got answered..


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## SAsamone

Goddess of Judecca said:


> Oh god. Whoever taught their horse to bow like the former should be beaten with a brick.


LOL!! I've seen alot of funny posts today, and although I know it's not funny, it just happened to make me laugh. I do agree though, that's just awful...it doesn't even look "graceful" if that's what you are going for in a bow...it should be common sense to that person that horse looks uncomfortable.


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## HoovesWithDaFur

Ignore me, hehe.. But I taught my girl to bow the second way. It was easy with her but then I tried my mini and he wasnt having any of it! I am still perfecting her now, moreso undersaddle than anything.











Tymer, this being an old thread means it isnt up for discussion anymore?


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## RedTree

Teach a Horse to Bow - wikiHow


There's a wiki how link on it.... I'm not to sure though, I think what ever way you do it, it's just a lot of repetition.


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## RedTree

HoovesWithDaFur said:


> Ignore me, hehe.. But I taught my girl to bow the second way. It was easy with her but then I tried my mini and he wasnt having any of it! I am still perfecting her now, moreso undersaddle than anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tymer, this being an old thread means it isnt up for discussion anymore?


How long did it take you to teach your horses?


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## HoovesWithDaFur

A day to get her to get on her knee and be ok with it. From then on it has been a couple months of inconsistent working considering the weather has been very cold! She is pretty much 100% on the ground, I worked with her every day or every other day until the weather got bad.. I cue her and she goes. Just recently I got a treat and she did it without me even asking.. Which isnt good but I was happy anyway to know she is so eager/comfortable doing it.

It is when I am on her back that she doesnt want to do it.

I used the rope method... lead rope around her leg.


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## amberly

The first one looks painful, uncomfrtable, unbalanced, and just doesn't even look right either. 
The second one looks beautiful. And I have always wanted to try and teach this to my horses - I think I will work on it today!!


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## sparks879

well whoever it is theyre a Washington cougars fan


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## KigerQueen

My bf would not let his horse bow like that. He ether goes down on one knee, or "prays" on both knees. ONLY in the sand, and normally he will just ask him to lay down so he can use him as a chair XD. Or is he is just to lazy to saddle him and wants to ride bareback.

That horse in the first pic just looks painful. HOW can he balance on his hooves like that?!


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## loosie

CloudsMystique said:


> It's extremely hard on their front legs, and it makes them very unbalanced while they're bowing. They can easily strain the muscles or tendons in their front legs or shoulders, or even fall over.


Interested to learn what you've seen/read to make you think that? Not saying you're wrong, just never heard that before. I wouldn't call it a bow, but have been taught it as a good stretch by an equine bodyworker I've used. 

As for strained tendons & ligs, any stretching, *if it's forced* can be bad, but if not, the horse will go only as far/as long as it can without pain & improve gradually with regular stretching, same as ourselves. Also if you're really concerned about body damage & that's you in your avatar, I'd reconsider sliding stops & the likes too.


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