# Solid paints



## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

My question is because, his skin is two different colors, pink and black.
So why does the hair stay solid?


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## Charley horse (Nov 12, 2012)

I have no idea, but my Appy is like that..He has dapples of color on his rump but is solid white in color.
btw pretty guy you have there!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Do you have a full body picture of him? It may be an appaloosa pattern on top of a pinto pattern that is causing him to be predominantly white. Varnish roan can cause a horse to look almost completely white while still maintaining the dark skin underneath.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I'll grab one tomorrow.

And nope, he's been completely white for 16 years. (he's probably 18, we got him young)

If you get him wet, he looks like a pink and black paint.

He has no color other than that of his ears.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

This is the only one I have I'll get one of him standing tomorrow


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

A 'solid' Paint refers to a Paint horse that comes out completely solid colored (bay, chestnut, palomino, etc - aside from face/leg white which is still caused by pinto genes). So technically your horse isn't solid so much as he's ridiculously loud/maximum expression of pattern. There are a few reasons your boy can have the mismatch of black and pink skin. The biggest one would be if he is grey and his color just faded out, the black skin would still be there but the hair would turn white over time. Since you say you got him young, how young are we talking? Young enough for a grey to _not_ be fully white?

I honestly can't really think of any other reason a completely "white" Paint horse would have both black and pink skin all over his body. (as a reference, there's an 11yo completely "white" grey stallion at the farm Reno is at, and his colt is just over yearling and is well into greying)


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

As a side note, since he's a mustang he's actually a pinto, not a paint. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

I have some pics of Warrior


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

He could possibly be a maximum sabino or potentially a dominant white.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Bridgertrot said:


> As a side note, since he's a mustang he's actually a pinto, not a paint.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I must have missed the mustang part.
Regardless solid still refers to actual color, generally.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Where is his skin dark?


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

in BIG patches, his sides, on his butt somewhere, I forget if his legs have color.

When he's wet, the patches are in areas like these. only more on his ribs than this mare's.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Reno Bay said:


> Young enough for a grey to _not_ be fully white?


He was probably 2 ish


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

And how did you verify his age when you got him?


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I'd have to ask the BO. I was an infant when she got him

I know she got him younger than an age he could be backed for sure.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Are there any photos of him from a younger age you could compare him to? I am thinking grey or varnish, maybe a combination of both if he really has been this colour since such a young age. Sometimes when they are combined, grey happens really quickly.


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

I have a video from 11 years ago, and he still looks the same (can't put it up because it's actually a video cassette!! :O )


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I was thinking about him possibly being gray, also, but am a little thrown off by the color left in his ears. Does that ever happen with gray?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

verona1016 said:


> I was thinking about him possibly being gray, also, but am a little thrown off by the color left in his ears. Does that ever happen with gray?


In theory, it could be a bloody shoulder marking.


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## Smokum (May 4, 2012)

he is a tobiano, not a solid or he would be a base color (black, bay, chestnut). He has paint tips on his ears & blues in the eyes. Leading to believe he is suppose to be a medicine hat. 
_Legends with our Indian Nations as the Medicine Mans horse._
Warrior fits his name very well being he is a Mustang. 

Its all DNA and tobiano is a fun pattern ranging from splashy to barley. All patterns of white are created by genes that block the horse's normal color. Pinto genes block the base color from expressing itself, leaving the hair white.
Tobiano patterns can hide in the DNA or layer over another paint pattern.
From patches, paw prints, spots and of course medicine hats, near whites and more, its all in the breeding.. One foal being full splash to its full sibling just having a chest & flank spot with blue eyes to a solid next round. 
It could also determine the parents being homozygous or heterozygous for the tobiano gen, from another paint pattern or a solid.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Smokum said:


> he is a tobiano, not a solid or he would be a base color (black, bay, chestnut). He has paint tips on his ears & blues in the eyes. Leading to believe he is suppose to be a medicine hat.
> _Legends with our Indian Nations as the Medicine Mans horse._
> Warrior fits his name very well being he is a Mustang.
> 
> ...


Him carrying pinto patterning genes (which no one has denied, for what it's worth) does not explain why the hair over dark skin is not coloured.


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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

I am leaning towards the horse being a grey. Do you have any pictures of him after a bath?


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Not here, I'll have to rummage around the stable to see if we can find any.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

The dark in his ear sounds like my max sabino pepper so this is probably your horse as well. He has some red ticking in his coat but mostly he is all white except the inside of his ears it is red. He was born with a Medicine Hat and had a red mane and tail but as he aged most of his red disappeared. The black mottling on your horses skin is probably where colored hair are/were. Pepper also has this. His skin is pink everywhere except on his rump, shoulders, neck, ears and of course the eyeliner. Because people can see the black mottled pigment through his white fur especially when he sweats he is often mistaken for an appy, but he is all paint . Also people often think he is a gray but he can't be gray neither parent is gray. Momma is a black and white paint daddy is a sorrel sabino Overo paint.


























Red in ears









Mottled skin on his rump


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

I know what you mean Lex. I have a 'grey and white paint'. That's what he was sold to me as. His muzzle is pink and under his lip is gray. His blaze is white and the skin under it is pink. But, the rest of his skin on his body is gray. Besides his face. 

Is this what you mean?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

It's like that, but the skin on his body is not the same color. 
It's in big patches, not mottled or spotty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

If that horse is not a grey pinto gone white then I'm with Peppy Barrel racer on this I think that horse is more a max sabino,like her boy. I've seen quite a few horses marked similiar{they came from sabino lines}.The ears seem to be last place they like to hold on to their base color:wink:& then is not unusual to see pigmented spots in skin,primarily usually seen on chest & butt regions.


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## Cowgirls Boots (Apr 6, 2011)

Lexiie said:


> It's like that, but the skin on his body is not the same color.
> It's in big patches, not mottled or spotty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So he's white with grey skin? Not quite sure what you mean lol. Cause my guy has pink skin in some places and grey skin in others but he's all white.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

So the grey skin is solid? No mottling? Then might have to go back to paint gone grey. Wish I knew what he looke like as a young horse. Or maybe he is a max sabino who is also grey lol.


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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

Peppy Barrel Racing, do you have Pepper's parents on site? If not...how do you know that they are not grey now......greys turns grey at various rates....just because they were not grey when Pepper was foaled, doesnt mean they are not grey now. Unless of course you have them both on the farm yourself. When you say Pepper was born with a red mane, do you mean his foal coat had a red mane, or did he have a red mane past young the foal shed?
Sorry for all the questions....I am just really curious about color fading on a non grey and a non appy. I know appy color genes can pop up time to time on other stock breeds. I just havent heard of max sabino causing a color to fade. I am curious to hear some more expert opinions here!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

MelissaAnn said:


> Peppy Barrel Racing, do you have Pepper's parents on site? If not...how do you know that they are not grey now......greys turns grey at various rates....just because they were not grey when Pepper was foaled, doesnt mean they are not grey now. Unless of course you have them both on the farm yourself. When you say Pepper was born with a red mane, do you mean his foal coat had a red mane, or did he have a red mane past young the foal shed?
> Sorry for all the questions....I am just really curious about color fading on a non grey and a non appy. I know appy color genes can pop up time to time on other stock breeds. I just havent heard of max sabino causing a color to fade. I am curious to hear some more expert opinions here!


Lol I know for certain 100% without a doubt he is not grey. I know the owners of pepper's dam very well that's how we ended up with him she is a black and white Overo mare her name is magic. Those people know the breeder of pepper's sire very well somewhere I have a picture if him he is a loud Chesnut Overo. Here is pepper's lineage from allbreed this is straight from his registration APHA papers. Sonnys Butch Cassidy Paint. As you can see there is no grey in his lineage. White markings will always have pink skin underneath pepper is all white except where the red ticking is/was. As he aged white takes over where the red was. There is still some red hairs in his mane and tail you just gotta get up close and personal to see them. There are red ticks on his ears, neck, shoulders, rump. They aren't really noticeable till he sweats though but they are there. And yes the baby mane and tail was bright red but now it is almost all white.

This is an APHA explanation of peppers color
The whitest of the sabinos are nearly or entirely white. Some retain color only on the ears. Others are indeed white all over. One of the whiter ranges of expression includes color on the ears, chest, and tail base. These are the medicine hat Paints of the native tribes from the Great Plains. Most sabinos that are largely white are very speckled and roaned, and some can be confused with Appaloosas.

Some sabinos are quite white and survive, which points to this being entirely different from the frame overo that results in lethal white foals when homozygous. Sabino, by itself, is not associated with lethal white foals.

Also OP did you say your horse has multicolored eyes that is a sabino trait.

Many sabino horses have eyes that are partially blue and partially brown. Flecks, patches and roan areas are common on sabinos, in contrast to the frame overos that are usually more crisply marked.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Also OP did you say your horse has multicolored eyes that is a sabino trait.
> 
> Many sabino horses have eyes that are partially blue and partially brown. Flecks, patches and roan areas are common on sabinos, in contrast to the frame overos that are usually more crisply marked.


Blue eyes are a frame or splash trait, not a sabino trait.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Blue eyes are a frame or splash trait, not a sabino trait.


Oh really !!! Learned something new then I always like that. Quick question since I'm still learning can blue eyes only because by "paint" genes. I put paint in quotes since frame/splash isn't just in paints. So maybe a better question is frame/ splash the only thing that causes blue eyes or are there others genes? Love to be educated chiilaa. Thanks in advance. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Oh really !!! Learned something new then I always like that. Quick question since I'm still learning can blue eyes only because by "paint" genes. I put paint in quotes since frame/splash isn't just in paints. So maybe a better question is frame/ splash the only thing that causes blue eyes or are there others genes? Love to be educated chiilaa. Thanks in advance.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Double dilutes are the only other reason for genetic blue eyes. 

Instead of calling them "paint" genes, since Paint is a breed not a colour, I call them either pinto genes, or white patterning genes.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Double dilutes are the only other reason for genetic blue eyes.
> 
> Instead of calling them "paint" genes, since Paint is a breed not a colour, I call them either pinto genes, or white patterning genes.


Gotcha that makes sense thank you for educating me.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

justs would mean the horse is "exclusively" sabino  even though saying might be displaying max sabino traits, yes indeed there would be other over genes at work there too creating the blue eyes. It is very common seeing the different patterning genes work in combination:wink:.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Lexiie said:


> It's like that, but the skin on his body is not the same color.
> It's in big patches, not mottled or spotty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This tells me that it is something modifying the original base colour, not a pinto pattern adding white. If a pinto pattern adds white, the skin turns pink. Max sabinos still have dark skin under the colour, just some seem to shed a bit more colour as they grow older. The dark skin left under the white of a max sabino tends to be just like the example posted in this thread.

This is the result of grey on top of pinto patterning. Is this closer to the horse OP?


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

Chiilaa 
That's what he looks like when he's wet, just with the pink showing through his wet hair


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## Lexiie (Nov 14, 2011)

And all of his face is pink (except for his ears)


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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

Lexiie said:


> Chiilaa
> That's what he looks like when he's wet, just with the pink showing through his wet hair


Then he is most likely grey with white pattern (tobiano, frame, sabino, splash).

Colored horses (black, palomino, chestnut, etc.) have black skin. Add the grey gene that turns the _hair_ white, the skin will still be black.

Patterned horses will have a mixture of black and pink skin, pink _only_ where the white patterning is. This is also true for any generic white markings (star, sock, blaze, etc.), as they are also caused by the white patterning genes.

Your horse most likely started out life as a whatever-color pinto that greyed out, thus leaving him with all white hair (but the skin color doesn't change so you can still see what his pattern looked like underneath all that white). Depending on what his base color is, if he was always considered all white even as a foal he could possibly have been very light-colored.


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## SunnyMeadeFarm (Sep 3, 2012)

I vote that hes a maximum expressed Sabino, due to the sabino's jagged styles couldn't it be lightly spread over some areas but still appearing white that could case some darker skin? just a thought, I could be wrong.


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