# Is sending horse for full training the answer??



## shiraros316 (Oct 4, 2019)

Hey guys, I'm hoping to get some opinions as i'm currently kinda stuck. 

I'm a dressage rider and spent 8 months looking for my next dressage mount as I had to retire my other gelding due to neurologic issues. I'm a very capable rider and have competed up to first level recognized and am hoping to go for my bronze. I can be timid though and don't like an overly hot or forward horse. So many really fancy dressage prospects were just too much horse for me where i'm currently at in my riding. I needed something a bit calmer and reliable. I finally found an experienced 11 yo hunter horse who'd competed the A rated circuit up to 2'6" but they felt he had more of a future in dressage. He was calm, relaxed at shows, and had the movements to be a great dressage horse with some training. I tried him twice before vetting and buying him. We knew he was smart and had been sent to the trainer where I saw him for a "bootcamp" after sitting for awhile when his teenage rider went to college. He has sass which I love but did everything I asked. He seemed perfect for me.

We brought him home and I was so excited. He'd spent his entire career doing hunters/jumpers, with about a month of "formal" dressage training with a jumper trainer, so we knew he'd need some time to get used to bit contact, using his back more, and a consistent dressage training program. He started testing his limits a bit (not wanting to canter when asked), which was expected and was fine. I had to learn to be the dominant rider and tell him what he had to do. He then started kicking out and bucking when asked to canter. We've done everything right in terms of checking dental, saddle fit, bit fit, girth, we put him on adequan to help with the more physically demanding regime he's on now compared to what he was used to. The vet is coming again today to just make sure we haven't missed anything pain related before moving on to addressing behavioral issues. 

Assuming health wise he is fine, we're going to move on to dealing with the idea that he may just be a butthead and needs some consistent intensive training to get him where I need him to be. I have a fabulous bronze level trainer i've been with for years who I love, but she unfortunately can only get on him twice a week with a lesson since she trains and teaches part time. There is another instructor who I ride with who can also get on him once a week. But i'm wondering if he needs something more consistent to really progress. I love him to pieces but when we bought him, we thought he could have gone into a training level test that day. Now he barely can canter without a fuss  I have no problem putting in the work and money to get him where I need him to be. I am an adult amateur and do this for fun, and quite frankly, it's not fun riding a horse who won't do what I ask when I thought I bought something totally different. I also could have spent way less money on a greener horse if that's what I had wanted  But I wasn't looking for a green horse to bring up, I wanted a competition dressage horse. 

We're going to keep working with him, i'm going to get my trainer and the other instructor on him as much as possible, have some friends who are physically stronger than I am get on him. I'm not ready to give up by any means. I do have the option though of sending him to a grand prix trainer we know who would happily take him and put him in full training for 2-3 months. I'd be able to go out there 2-3 times a week to do lessons and he would ride him 6x a week. I don't want to do this unless we feel we have tried all other options as I want him to be with me and I don't want to feel like i'm taking the easy way out or something. But I also need to think about much I want to invest in him before deciding if he really is unfortunately and heartbreakingly not the right horse for me at this point in my riding. 

After that very long background story, i'm curious on people's opinions and experiences in sending their horses to a professional trainer for full training? Has it been worth it? Did they come back to you afterwards and were like "oh it's you again, I can do what I did before"? Was it what they needed? Am I giving up by sending him away? Thoughts would be fantastic. Thank you!!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I didn't make it past this:


"we put him on adequan to help with the more physically demanding regime he's on now compared to what he was used to."


I think your problem is two fold. The vet missed something the owner did not divulge and personality wise this is not an ideal fit. Not that you can't work on the partnership and improve the relationship but work it sounds like needs done.




ETA then this jumped out at me waiting for the reply to post:


"I wanted a competition dressage horse. "






Then that is what you should have bought. You may have purchased a finished hunter/jumper (in more than one way) but you bought a beyond green dressage horse.


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## shiraros316 (Oct 4, 2019)

Should have included that the vetting did show, and the owner told us, that he has slight arthritis in his hocks. He's been performing well for a long time with no problems and my vet didn't see any concerns with it after xrays and talking to the previous vet. We knew it would need maintenance at some point but that wasn't a dealbreaker for me. Every horse has something. With the different way they use their bodies, we think the dressage just upset that a little bit so adequan hopefully will make him more comfortable.


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## shiraros316 (Oct 4, 2019)

Yes I wanted a dressage horse but buying one show ready with the temperment I need was way outside my budget. So my choices were buy a young green dressage or an experienced hunter horse who could transition to dressage. Many hunters settle into a dressage life. George Morris said any good hunter equitation horse should be able to do at least a third level test. I knew he would need fine tuning on collection, rhythm, balance, etc which I was fine with.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

If you have a trainer that you already like, why not let her see him the two days a week that she can, and go from there. Presumably you trust her opinions, so any insights that she has would be useful to you. Be up front that you are thinking about putting him into full training, and see if she thinks, after working with him for a bit, that that would be a good idea.

Since you asked for personal stories, I will give you mine, although it may not be relevant to you. When I bought my Pony, I was a very green rider and he was a very green pony, so I sent him away for training for a few months. At the same time (and here's where it may not be relevant to you since you are not a green rider) I went into riding boot camp myself, to become a better rider. We got back together after a couple of months, and it was still tough, but he was much better. I think a lot of it was that not only was he green due to overall lack of riding, he was also green in the sense that he had only been ridden on trails and we were trying to turn him into a jumper. The whole arena thing, poles circles, etc., just seemed pointless to him. And he was also a dominant horse who liked to argue, so having someone else get him over that hump of everything being totally new to him was very helpful.

But no, things did not revert to where they were after he came back. Things got a LOT better! Part of that may be that it was the same people giving us lessons that had done his training, so they had a good sense of his thought process and, most of the time, knew when he was just being a pony and when something was actually difficult for him. We have continued to move forward.

It was worth it for me in the end, but looking back on it, I think it would have made more sense financially to have just bought a horse that was already trained, than to pay for all of that training. Plus I realize now that when you buy a horse that hasn't been trained, it's always possible that training won't work, or the horse won't have an aptitude for what you want it to do. So it's a bit of a gamble.

Also, no, sending him for training is absolutely not giving up. It's finding a different way to move forward.

Ultimately my attitude was horse first, discipline second. I wanted to give him a chance at something I thought he would be good at, but I didn't personally need to jump -- I was happy to do whatever he enjoyed. It turns out that maybe jumping isn't something he enjoys, so we may stick to flatwork. I'm OK with that because I bought him for his personality and general potential, not his ability to perform in a particular discipline. But if dressage is something you really want to do, then yes you may need to consider whether this horse even wants to do that. Paying a lot of money for training just to find that out wouldn't be a lot of fun.

So yeah, I think I'd definitely get the trainer you trust, give her a month or so on him, and then have a really honest discussion about whether he has a future in dressage, and whether the two of you have a future together.


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## shiraros316 (Oct 4, 2019)

Thank you for the reply! That is super helpful. We really do think he enjoys the dressage much more than the jumping. He didn't like going higher than 2'6" but perked up at the flatwork, which is why they transitioned him. When we saw him, he had already had some training with a professional dressage rider who felt he had potential to go to at least third level or higher. I bought him mostly because I fell in love with his personality and calm demeanor. When we tried him both times, he was going around in a nice frame, already understanding laterals and counter canter. He was "green" in the sense that he needed to learn to lift his poll, use his hind a bit more, take the bit contact a bit more, stuff like that. We saw that he definitely had an aptitude for it or we wouldn't have gone with him. I'd tried other horses who, when you took contact, basically gave you a big F you and threw their head up. He was not like that. When we brought him though, something must have shifted and we're not quite sure what it was, so that's what we're trying to figure out. I completely trust my trainer and she said she'd be on board with sending him for training if we feel like we've done everything else we could. I completely fell in love with him so I would want to do that before deciding that we're not right for each other and selling him. I want to give it our best shot. But yes, if he really just does not seem to like it and it's not going to happen, as much as it would suck, I would do what was best for him and me. I do have dressage aspirations and I won't be happy having a horse who is only walk trot. We searched for so long though for him and for my last horse. But we found that an experienced dressage horse with a calm and confident temperament that isn't hot or overly sensitive and is the right size for me is just way outside of my budget.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I enjoyed what I got back after my horse was in full training for 8 months. He went from a shoddy training level to schooling 2nd/3rd and lost his explosive tendencies.



Have you tried going back and spending some time riding him like a hunter? Going from a long hunter frame with a rider light on the back to dressage where you are sitting on them all the time could be too much. Try getting out of the tack to canter and see if he changes his attitude.


You could also reach out to his previous trainer and ask them for some lessons, or advice since they would know him better.



What else has changed from his previous home? What's the difference in his tack and management? Turnout, feed, ect.


Have you tried a bute or robaxin trial?


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## shiraros316 (Oct 4, 2019)

That's good to hear! Yes we've definitely considered that going from a long low hunter frame and doing just basic exercise in a large outdoor arena to doing dressage with a steady seat and contact was a bit jarring for him. He'd only done it occasionally with a jumper rider who admitted she didn't know much dressage, and now with us it's way more. So we are taking a step back to let him settle into it a little more. I don't want to push him too hard and ruin it cause he really has so much potential!! I've talked to the old trainer and she came to ride him once after we got him and he was pretty much fine so we think it is that we ride differently and with different aids and everything. The only thing that really changed from his previous home was the type of work. They also only had a large outdoor arena and they would ride around the perimeter pretty much. He's been in big coliseums at shows but never in a regular indoor so our indoor was a bit shocking to him I think lol but he's getting used to it. Same amount of turnout though, he loves his friends, different saddle but i've had it fitted twice, same feed. The next thing we're going to try is a bute trial to see if he is just maybe a little uncomfortable in his joints and muscles from the different work he's doing. My vet thinks that would totally make sense and his body is adjusting and he doesn't like the feeling right now. I'm hoping we can fix it, I love him and everything else about him was exactly what I wanted.


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## Hackamore (Mar 28, 2014)

I think you should keep in mind that the definition of “full training” can vary greatly depending on the trainer and/or rider. Based solely on your description of the horse it sounds like he did not have solid foundation training prior to being shown as a jumper. Regardless of the discipline any horse I start must be able to be ridden at W,T & C on a loose rein, turn, back and stop while in a relaxed state of mind. If they can’t do this they are not ready to more into an advanced discipline. In my experience some of the jumping horses are not much better than Off track horses in terms of the foundation they get prior to their show carrier. 

Most any horse can be helped by an experience horse person/trainer if time and money is not an issue. The question you need to ask is how much money and time are you willing to invest in this horse? In terms of money it could be cheaper to sell him and find a horse better suited for you abilities and needs. 

Best of luck,


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## txgirl (Jul 9, 2010)

What, no photos of this lovely guy???


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

shiraros316 said:


> I finally found an experienced 11 yo hunter horse who'd competed the A rated circuit up to 2'6" but they felt he had more of a future in dressage.
> I tried him twice before vetting and buying him.
> 
> He started testing his limits a bit (not wanting to canter when asked), which was expected and was fine. I had to learn to be the dominant rider and tell him what he had to do. He then started kicking out and bucking when asked to canter.
> ...



In my experience, Adequan alone is usually NOT enough to take the pain away from hock arthritis, whether it's fusing or true arthritis.


In my opinion, he's blatantly telling you he is not comfortable (bucking, kicking, not wanting to canter). I would do joint injections before trying to go further with his training.





shiraros316 said:


> After that very long background story, i'm curious on people's opinions and experiences in sending their horses to a professional trainer for full training? Has it been worth it? Did they come back to you afterwards and were like "oh it's you again, I can do what I did before"? Was it what they needed? Am I giving up by sending him away? Thoughts would be fantastic. Thank you!!



Of course, always remember the RIDER needs the training just as much as the HORSE. Which of course, you are prepared to do.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

There are several things that cross my mind. I have come across this problem - of a horse changing character once sold - many times before. 

You have bought a horse that had a calm and reliable temperament,he had had the same job all his life and might well have been an A circuit horse all his life and now he is resenting cantering. So, why? 

You have ruled out pain issues, saddle fit et al so here is my thought. 

He has done the same job all his working life and now is being asked to work in a totally different way and is resenting it. It is easier for him to misbehave at a canter than at a walk or trot. 

The fact that he has hock issues comes into play as he is now being asked to use his hocks in a more engaged way and they may be sore.

Take it a bit slower, let him canter on a loose rein and only ask him to engage for a few strides and work from there.


For me a couple ofmwarning flags about this horse, first that he was only jumping 2' 6" which is barely a jump and, the hock issue.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

Can we get @DanteDressageNerd to chime in on this? I would be interested to read her opinion.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I can't help you at all with training issues, but I will say that we bought a horse for my daughter who turned 20 this year and now has arthritis in his hocks. He did some dressage before we bought him, but didn't really have the conformation to go beyond low levels, so they sold him to us. For the last 4 years, my daughter has been jumping with him. Thinking that was probably hard on him, we started working on dressage more and hired a dressage coach to work with both of them. Our observation is that dressage is way harder for him now than jumping. He can only do it for short bursts, and it is really hard work for him to collect his hind end. He gets tired and sweaty, something we don't see when he jumps. We thought it would be easier, but it turns out that dressage is way harder for him now than jumping (they do hunters and jumpers, and also do lots of equitation classes which is fine for him). So for a horse with arthritis in the hocks, dressage might just be asking a lot. I hope I'm wrong, for your sake.


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## shiraros316 (Oct 4, 2019)

*Thank you!*

I think you hit the nail right on the head. My vet came out yesterday and totally agrees. He was a hunter horse his whole life, and did very well, and they only started "playing" around with dressage about a month before I got him. He showed such amazing natural talent and desire for it they thought yes this is what he should be doing. But this is a totally new life for him in terms of work.

We knew about the hock issue but it is only in the upper part of the hock and since my vet knew the previous vets, talked with them, knew his whole history, they weren't concerned about it enough for me not to take him. We just knew he'd need some sort of maintenance at some point. We decided to inject his right hock again yesterday. He'd had it done in February and responded beautifully. Since the change in work though, my vet thought it was completely reasonable that his hocks needed a bit more attention earlier than we'd hoped (although 8 months in between injections isn't horrible or unreasonable). She was able to see exactly his bad behavior when I asked for canter and she thinks (although she has no crystal ball of course) that he is totally telling us something hurts. We're hoping the injection plus the adequan will do the trick. We're going to take it nice and slow and get him as comfortable as possible before putting back in full work, and then we're still going to take the collection at canter slowly. My vet doesn't think that he falls into the category of his body is just not right for this type of work, but of course that's always a possibility I'll have to consider if none of this works. 

In terms of the jumping, he was winning and doing great at 2'6" rated shows and was totally sound. They decided to step him down just because he would start to get nervous at the 3'. He'd go over with a very confident and strong rider but they didn't feel the need to keep pushing if he didn't enjoy it. He LOVES jumping the lower stuff so we'll start doing that for fun once he's sound enough. 

He really has just the best mind and personality and that's why I bought him. He gets off the trailer at a show and clinic and doesn't miss a step. Acts like he's lived there his whole life. No silliness and I feel confident riding him anywhere. That's big for me and one of the big reasons I chose him. I'm willing to put the work into him to make him a dressage horse and everyone who sees him move says he totally is built for it and could do great things. Fingers crossed his body will let us continue. 

Thank you all so much for the comments and advice. I really just wanted to widen my area of information and the horse community is so great.


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## shiraros316 (Oct 4, 2019)

Not sure if this will work but trying to attach a picture  

The flat is my first ride on him and the jumping is him competing a couple weeks earlier with a jumper trainer.


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

It's really hard to give an opinion without seeing or knowing the horse. It's really hard to put a picture together of what is going on without "seeing." Going off of pure description is difficult because there are so many “possibilities” drawing a conclusion is difficult. 

If he has a hock issue? It can cause a behavioral reaction but it depends on what is going on. It is worth investigating. But it sounds like you've taken care of it with a vet, so awesome! Hope the injection in combination with lessons works! And there is no shame with sending him to a trainer for a few months, he is green to dressage and even though he's had a show career in another discipline. He is still green to dressage. 

Some horses are not dressage horses and some struggle with adapting to a new job. Some horses are genuinely uncomfortable with letting a rider have that much influence over them but if this is training-1st atm then that shouldn't be an issue. I think there is very little demand at that point. He may need a gradual build up to holding himself in a more “collected” frame meaning actually having to accept contact, work over his back, shift his balance back to front and push into contact. Some horses are claustrophobic of contact or have been taught to be fearful of contact. *shrugs* I think working with trainers and putting him in training is a good idea, it isnt weakness. Do what is right for you and your horse, be your own advocate. 

Another thing more as food for thought than particularly relevant. A lot of trainers get distracted by flashy movement but do not notice biomechanics of HOW a horse moves. It is the mechanics of HOW they move and HOW they move through their body and there are certain conformation defects that are career enders if the aim is upper level (ex long soft pasterns and straight through the stifle). However to about medium or 3rd big, flashy paces are rewarded. The degree of thoroughness, collection and what is asked is fairly straight forward.

Good luck!! I hope everything works out!


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## ValerieR (Jun 28, 2018)

I've never understood why horse owners see sending their horses off for training as "giving up". We don't see parents as failures for sending their kids off to college because they can't get a university level education at home, right? It's no different with horses. In your position, I believe that putting him into full time training with someone like a grand prix trainer who really knows their stuff is the only way to go. You've got this guy at a critical spot in his life; the things you're talking about behavior wise sound like honest to goodness confusion to me. With where he's at in his education, he could either make a seamless transition because you recognized the issues he's having and got on top of it by giving him the education he needs, or this will get a whole lot worse if those holes he has aren't patched. If you're willing to put the time and money into him, and you like the horse that much, it would be totally worthwhile in my opinion. That way too, you have the correct foundation to build on as you advance. Think house built on sand versus house built on concrete. Give him every chance to be successful by setting him up with the education he needs. Send him off, you'll both be happier for it.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Very attractive horse! I can see why you really like him. 

First thoughts: 

I the picture you were riding him on the flat in a jumping/forward saddle. Are you using a Dressage saddle now? 

Did you have his back x-rayed? 


Horses with back issues (ex kissing spine) do not do well in a Dressage saddle, but are fine for a while in a jumping/forward saddle. They also do fine at small jumps, but not larger ones. 

Second: 

Starting Dressage with an 11 yr old horse that is new to it and already needs hock injections is maybe not the best option if you aspire to do higher competition. 

Thirdly:

I mean no disrespect by this, but how can an instructor that has only achieved their bronze metal be able to adequately assess upper level ability? Is your instructor an "L" graduate? 


I would have the upper level (gold I hope) instructor evaluate the horse. They would have a much better idea of the potential.


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## Suzanne Doyle (Feb 12, 2019)

*Breed or previous discipline might be issue*

You do not mention breed. 

My daughter bought a lovely thoroughbred with amazing physicality but no jumping background. She is a jumper and always starts a new horse in dressage to get him supple in his movements and responsive. He started bucking at lateral work. Chiropractor, vet, massage, several saddles later (2.5 years) she had him evaluated for kissing spine. Her regular vet said it was not bad; ride him long and low. Well, she always warmed him up and cooled him down long and low, so she took him to a back specialist. He found, I think, eight or nine spinal processes involved and the horse had surgery. Total cost only about $1,000. He is jumping A circuit at 1.0 meter. 

Hunters and jumpers can develop spinal issues due to upside down riding - watch an A circuit show and you'll be surprised by the expensive horses with high heads and hollowed backs. If his personality is good for you, you might have xrays taken of his entire back (regular vet only looked at first 4 vertebrae behind withers). Imaging was a couple $100 with the surgery $800 at a practice that is the go-to in our region, Northwest Oregon. Their reputation is raves and they do enough of the big stuff that their pricing is quite good (volume).
If you are lucky, you'll find someone with lots of experience close to you.

Good Luck!! Many people told my daughter to give up on H but she loved his mind, physicality and personality. She rode him through all their struggles and it created a great partnership.


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