# Long term, off the farm lease.



## GamingGrrl

I don't think the leasee should have to pay on top of the horses care, that's kinda ridiculous. In my experience the leasee pays any and all vet bills, farrier, feed, hay, ect.
The only time I would pay money for a lease was if the owner was paying for the horses care.

Unless the horse is extremely valuable, I wouldn't bother with insurance. Just put something in the contract that states that the leasee will owe you the horses worth (specified in the contract) if it dies/becomes permenately lame in their care.
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## MyBoySi

I have a long term lease that I pay nothing for. I take care of everyday costs, feed, hay, feet, routine vetting and the owner agreed to pay for anything major should it occur. 

So far its worked well for everyone involved, I have had said horse for 2+ years. I get to enjoy the horse without the purchase price which I never could have afforded and the owner gets the peace of mind that her horse will always be taken care of and that she can have him back if need be. 

I personally wouldn't pay for a lease if I am taking over the daily expense long term. My horses owner has not even been out to see him in 2+ years but only lives 20 mins away.


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## Brighteyes

That sounds pretty easy to put if horse dies/becomes unusable, you owe me X dollars. I don't know how much this horse is worth though. Do I have to have her appraised or just be like, "Well, probably worth about this much."

What about major vet bills? Like, something over, say, 300 dollars? Would I pay that or would the leasee?


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## verona1016

I wouldn't expect the leasee to pay the owner anything if it's an off-farm lease; they'd just cover all the normal costs of hay, feed, farrier, routine vet, etc.

I personally prefer the idea of requiring the leasee to either purchase mortality and/or major medical insurance for the horse, or you purchase insurance and require the leasee to pay any deductibles should the horse require care. I personally wouldn't sign any contract saying I would owe the horse's value if something happened to it, since there are MANY things that can happen that are in no way the fault of the leasee. Putting that on there almost requires the leasee to get a pre-purchase exam as if they were actually buying the horse if they're the least bit savvy. Insurance isn't a huge expense compared to what you already pay for horse care- most seem to be 3% of the declared value for mortality, plus maybe another hundred or two for major medical, depending on how much it covers.


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## GamingGrrl

I think that's a personal choice, I believe the person I'm leasing from had the horse appraised. 

In my contract it's stated that the leasee pays all bills, so I pay all bills, including emergency vet bills and contact the owners when the emergency happens.

Edit: I should've clarified early, the money paid if the horse dies or goes lame is from direct neglect or misuse, not freak accidents or anything. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DuckDodgers

If you have a horse that's in high demand with leasees lining up then it's absolutely appropriate to charge a fee above normal care. If that's not the case then I'd just stick to normal costs. 

A friend is doing a long-term lease with the gelding she rides. His owners live out of the country, and are leasing out both of their horses. Both my friend and the other girl doing the leasing do not pay anything to the horse's owner, but they pay for all of their expenses. Board, farrier, supplies, vaccines, AND unexpected vet bills. My friend's lease horse had to have pretty extensive treatment for an eye ulcer over the summer, and she had to cover that cost. I don't know what their agreement is for BIG expenses such as colics, but I doubt that the owner would pay for it. I think my friend would be stuck with that cost as well.

In return the friend and other girl have unlimited use of the horse- they are basically their horses. They can ride whenever they want, take the horses off the property to shows and the like, use whatever farrier and vet they want, even let other competent people ride them. They DO need to ask permission if they want to move the horses to another boarding stable, but the owners have been really flexible with that too. 

How well do you know this girl that is thinking about leasing? If you don't know her too well I would have her pay for ALL of the horse's expenses (like I would with any full lease) but I would explicitly say that she isn't to take the horse off the property without permission for each instance, and I wouldn't let anyone else ride him. If it's someone that you trust (and I would be VERY careful with who you trust, especially since the horse would be out of state) I'd pretty much let them do what they want.


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## WSArabians

I have someone looking at leasing a few mares, but all are withing driving distance. No way would I send my horse out of state. Heard of too many leases going south.

On condition, however, they pay for all the care (this is a breeding lease) including, feed, shots, dewormers, shelter, etc. They take out a mortality insurance policy as a leasee with payment going to me (for a breeding lease, they usually use the breeding fee as the cost of the insurance - this could be inflated). 
I require three references - vet, character, and farrier. 

It's clearly stated that I am allowed to come visit said mares with enough advance warning, they will not go where I don't know where they are nor are they to be moved from said property without my knowing.
Should I find at anytime the mares are being neglected, I have full rights to come and haul them asap and end the contract. 
A LFG is given so long as the mares are not found to be in neglect and all the points of the contract were followed. 
There can either be a fee or they can be bred back. Ultrasounds must be done. 

Just get references and have them checked.


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## DuckDodgers

One thing that I would require, in addition to references if you are not VERY familiar with the person and their vet/farrier/etc, would be photo updates of the horse if you aren't able to visit regularly. The friend I have who has been leasing the TB gelding originally found him at a local trainer's barn where she was to start taking lessons. He, along with the lady's other horse and a couple of other horses on the property, were basically half starved. The trainer was allowing them free (or discounted, I don't remember) board in exchange for lesson use. However, she didn't just tell the owners that she was having financial troubles and could no longer feed the horses, and instead just stopped feeding them. This was a lady that they personally knew and trusted, and because of this they thought their two horses were safely in the trainer's care. 

Requiring updates every couple of months showing the horse's condition is probably the best way to ensure the horse remains in good condition if you can't drive down there every month or so to see for yourself. I'd even go so far as to have them hold up today's newspaper to make sure they can't fib and use an old photo. It'll take 20 minutes out of the girl's day, and give you peace of mind. It may sound paranoid, but it'll prevent you from coming back in a year and finding a starving horse. My friend's horse's owners didn't even know they were in such condition until she contacted them with photos and inquired about the lease because everything happened over the course of a few months.


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## Prinella

I thought 300 was a small bill. You need agreements in place as to who pays transport if it falls through


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## Brighteyes

The people who want to lease her are trying her out tomorrow, so hopefully they'll give me a yes or no on whether they're going through with it or not. 

I actually got an insurance quote, because I may go that route and just have the lessee pay for insurance/we split insurance. 


So, here's some numbers. Tell me what they mean.

*Horse Name*
Flash of Lightening
*Breed*
Tennessee Walker
*Age*
7
*Birth Month / Year*
03/26/2006
*Sex*
Mare
*Use*
Endurance
*Purchase Price ($)*
2000
*Choose Limits & Coverage Desired:* 
*All Risk Mortality, Colic & Theft ($)*
4000
*Major Medical*
$ 7,500
*Colic & Surgical Only*
No
*Loss of Use - External Injury*
Yes - 2%
*Loss of Use - Full Coverage*
Yes - 3.75%
*Stallion ASD*
No


I'm currently debating with the insurance company over my horse's value. I say she's worth 4,000. I purchased her as a green broke, unproven four-year-old for 2000. I've since won a national championship, she was fourth in the nation in 2011, and first in the nation in 2012. She also has over 1000 competition miles. So we may debate back and forth, but she is certainly worth more than 2000. 


The premium they gave me (with her value at 2000) is $695. Is that all paid at one time, or spread out over a series of payments? I seriously don't understand insurance. Even if I don't end up taking out an insurance policy on this horse, I do want to understand insurance anyway. :lol:


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## Saddlebag

You need a lawyer to draw up the contract. Talk to the ins. agent if a payment plan is possible. It seems it's always riskier to let a horse go out of state and you could be dealing with different laws and courts if it backfires.


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## Saskia

I've heard insurance claims can be really tricky. Like just because you say she's worth $4000 when the time comes they might argue that, or at least part of it. Sometimes they will only pay out "loss of use" if you can provide proof of "usefulness" like recent (previous six months) and regular competition records and results, vet reports etc. If you can't prove it they don't always pay. 

Frequency of payments may depend on company. I'd also ask about excess (how you much you have to pay before they pay) and how much they pay for loss of use. That just looks like they cover death (not permanent loss of use) and only major surgeries.

I'd be hesitant, perhaps I'd put in a clause in the contract to be something like "In case of death or loss of use leasee is required to pay the agreed value ($4000) of horse to owner. Leasee is required to purchase insurance to cover medical and death costs and is responsible for all vet costs during lease term. Should the horse's death or permanent injury not be covered by the purchased insurance leasee remains liable for all vet bills and the agreed value of the horse." 

I'd obviously get it worded better, but I'd want it to be clear that regardless of how much the insurer pays out you must end up with the agreed value and all vet costs must be paid for.


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## 4horses

When I free leased horses I didn't pay for anything. The owner provided the horse, feed, farrier, vet etc. I paid for show costs, although there were times when the owner covered those as well. 

The reason why? I was providing free board for the owner. The horse got it's stall mucked every day, clean fresh water, fed 3-4x daily, exercise and free training. The owner did not ride as she was working and having health issues- she just wanted her horses to get attention and love while she was busy. She had a lot of animals, and one less was less work for her. 

If I had to pay for everything, why bother leasing, if you can just go buy a horse? 

If you are in college, the cost of boarding your horse near you will be $300-$500 per month, so even if you cover some of the costs of the horse (like feed or farrier), that is still less than if you end up keeping the horse with you. 

I would see if you can find a person to free lease closer to you. That way you can visit the horse, make sure he is well cared for, and maybe cover his feed, or work out a way to take him on rides during weekends. 

As a lessee, I would never agree to covering vet costs unless it was due to neglect. If the horse goes lame or gets arthritis, I would not want to be stuck paying for injections on a horse that isn't mine. 

Again, there is no point in leasing if I had to pay you , the feed, vet, farrier, and insurance, as well as having to haul home hay/feed and muck stalls. That would eventually add up to being more money than if I actually bought a horse. You may have a hard time finding someone to agree to those terms unless your horse is really spectacular. 

I would never send my horse out of state- that is just asking for trouble. 

Around here, I could half lease a horse, get lessons and go to shows for a flat monthly fee- without worrying about vet bills, feeding or mucking. 

You may have better luck finding someone closer to you if you are willing to cover more yourself.


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## verona1016

$695 seems really high. I pay 3.25% of my horse's declared value for mortality (it used to be 3% but went up when I started jumping him!) and then $300 more for $7500 in major medical. Maybe they charge more for different locations, but you should look into getting a few comparison quotes. (I purchase my insurance through Broadstone Equine)


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## DuckDodgers

4horses said:


> When I free leased horses I didn't pay for anything. The owner provided the horse, feed, farrier, vet etc. I paid for show costs, although there were times when the owner covered those as well.
> 
> The reason why? I was providing free board for the owner. The horse got it's stall mucked every day, clean fresh water, fed 3-4x daily, exercise and free training. The owner did not ride as she was working and having health issues- she just wanted her horses to get attention and love while she was busy. She had a lot of animals, and one less was less work for her.
> 
> If I had to pay for everything, why bother leasing, if you can just go buy a horse?
> 
> If you are in college, the cost of boarding your horse near you will be $300-$500 per month, so even if you cover some of the costs of the horse (like feed or farrier), that is still less than if you end up keeping the horse with you.
> 
> I would see if you can find a person to free lease closer to you. That way you can visit the horse, make sure he is well cared for, and maybe cover his feed, or work out a way to take him on rides during weekends.
> 
> As a lessee, I would never agree to covering vet costs unless it was due to neglect. If the horse goes lame or gets arthritis, I would not want to be stuck paying for injections on a horse that isn't mine.
> 
> Again, there is no point in leasing if I had to pay you , the feed, vet, farrier, and insurance, as well as having to haul home hay/feed and muck stalls. That would eventually add up to being more money than if I actually bought a horse. You may have a hard time finding someone to agree to those terms unless your horse is really spectacular.
> 
> I would never send my horse out of state- that is just asking for trouble.
> 
> Around here, I could half lease a horse, get lessons and go to shows for a flat monthly fee- without worrying about vet bills, feeding or mucking.
> 
> You may have better luck finding someone closer to you if you are willing to cover more yourself.


Why bother leasing? Because you don't need to pay for the purchase price of a horse, and if you decide you want a different horse, don't want to lease anymore, fall on hard times, or the horse can't be used anymore then you don't have to deal with a horse you don't need anymore. 

You may have gotten a good deal because the lady could afford it and wanted her horse worked, but the average person would be hard pressed to find a horse to lease without paying for the bills. Horses aren't free.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 4horses

Maybe it is just where I live, but there is never a shortage of horses to ride around here (for free), if you are a decent rider.

I had a friend looking for months for someone to come ride/show their 4H horse. The person I've been working for is looking for someone to ride and show one of their horses. Maybe it is just being part of the industry and knowing people, but if I was looking for a horse to ride and show (or trail ride) all I'd have to do is pick up the phone. 

I wish the original poster luck- I hope things work out for her.


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## DuckDodgers

4horses said:


> Maybe it is just where I live, but there is never a shortage of horses to ride around here (for free), if you are a decent rider.
> 
> I had a friend looking for months for someone to come ride/show their 4H horse. The person I've been working for is looking for someone to ride and show one of their horses. Maybe it is just being part of the industry and knowing people, but if I was looking for a horse to ride and show (or trail ride) all I'd have to do is pick up the phone.
> 
> I wish the original poster luck- I hope things work out for her.


That's not the case here. Maybe if you happen to be close friends with someone, or MAYBE be willing to take on a horse straight from pasture. As far as a well trained show worthy horse? Not gonna happen! People who have money are going to pay someone to keep their horses in training, or they're gonna get someone to pay for a lease. It's definitely an option to look into if there's a suitable horse for free to ride, but I wouldn't ever count on it!


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## Brighteyes

This isn't a backyard pet, or a kid's/local show kind of horse. This is a national champion, could-go-all-the-way sort of horse. Saying I'm crazy for wanting to ask a little per month for the horse is like expecting someone to free lease their grand prix jumper prospect for free. :shock: Sure, one can find any old horse to ride for free. But a finished, proven, ready-to-roll CTR horse well trained enough for a _junior_ to ride to hopefully to a second national championship this year? 

Please, tell me where to free lease one of those no strings attached. 


*cough* Sorry.  I'm just wanting to get out there that this is a valuable horse who in engages in high stress, high strain competition, and I want to do my best not to lose my assets if something goes sour.

The lessees aren't doing me a favor. They aren't training my horse in exchange for my letting them have her for free. They needed a competition horse; I'm providing them one. They also aren't my only options as far as leases go. I could just as easily put my horse into professional training to keep her in shape.


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## DuckDodgers

If your horse is in that high of demand then you should have no problem finding someone in your area to lease. Or even someone back home where your parents or friends could look in on him from time to time. Unless you personally know a phenomenal rider that is out of state there is no way I would send such an in demand horse away for a lease when anything could happen away from you! Even if the horse is an hour away from you then there's still the potential for the monthly visit and ride, but if they're four hours away or something it's much less doable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious

I have never heard of an "off the farm lease" where someone paid above the price of care. For a horse of any quality.


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## DuckDodgers

I've heard of it, but I've never actually seen it happen. If your horse is that in demand and someone is willing to pay it in addition to all care, then I don't see anything wrong with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brighteyes

^^ Your point is valid. I will see the horse every two months or so at competitions, and I've applied to college at Auburn. Best case scenario... I'm an hour away by the fall. Worst case, I'm around 3 hours away. :? Again, it's a valid concern, but I think I like the _combination_ of my horse/this rider. I want the lessee to rack up some fame for my horse during this lease period -- miles, championships, points. This may be my best shot at having my cake (leasing out a horse) and eating it too (having that horse continue to do well competitively.)

It isn't totally ideal, and I haven't committed to anything in writing yet, so I could yank this lease at any time if the cons (out of state horse) start outweighing the pros (darn good rider competing the horse).

I'm leaning towards not charging anything extra monthly though. Just because that sounds like a pain to collect and deal with. Late payments, keeping dates, records...


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## DuckDodgers

There's no reason why you would have to charge extra per month. I don't even know of anyone that has personally been a part of that sort of arrangement. It sounds like having the horse in work and competing at a higher level is worth it to you, and that's perfectly acceptable!

If you're a big fan of this horse/rider combo, AND you're comfortable with where he will be and who will be caring for him, then go for it! I just personally wouldn't do it at such a distance. It'll be good if you're able to see the horse regularly, but I'd still strongly advise that you get regular photo updates just to keep your piece of mind!


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## Brighteyes

I will definitely require photos, and I have "spies" (friends of mine who are friends of the lessee's) to help me keep an eye on her. They work closely with a trainer that several of my other friends also use, so my horse be seen during group lessons and trail rides.

I also may pop over for a visit if I'm heading that way. :twisted:

I've seen these people's horses. They all look great and well cared for. I've heard nothing but good reviews from all the "stalking" I've done. 

And I keep telling myself I can always always yank the contact at any time.


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