# Bay? Or Brown?



## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

Hello all!
Drifter has gotten his winter coat. Last month, as said growing of coat started, I noticed he stayed lighter around his muzzle. A friend at the barn told me this meant Drifter is not a true bay. I am not 100 % certain about coloring and the rules and such so I was just looking for additional input! I will post some pictures of him from this summer and recently. He is what I would normally consider a bay (4 black legs, black tipped ears, black mane and tail and brown everywhere else) but I'm starting to notice instances where horses that I think are bay are really browns and vice versa.

Would love to hear thoughts!
First four pics are of him this summer. The rest were all taken last month. In the last one you can really see the lightening of his muzzle. He is also turning an overall lighter/reddish color. Sometimes he almost appears to be burnt orange instead of brown when in the pasture  Thanks for the education!!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Looks brown to me, but it's not much to go on. Have you got any full body shots of him in his winter coat?


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

I snapped these while i cleaned his stall but they are not of the best quality-- perhaps they will work though..

The last pic was taken a while back, but it is still his winter coat. The others are recent. As in like, today.

His mane is really bleached out from being in the sun this summer. It is usually jet black. I let the ball drop on that one. He also has black tipped ears as well. But I am not sure if that means anything?

Also dont know if it matters but his dam was a bay, his sire was a sorrel. Not sure if that help determine whether he is bay/brown though.

EDIT TO ADD: The lighter area has always been black hair usually .. but the hair that has been growing back after his horriffic case of rainrot was lighter than usual and it has progressed to the muzzle he has now. I have only seen him 1 other time with a winter coat and he was so malnourished he didnt have much of one. This is the lightest I've ever seen him/his muzzle though before. His legs have stayed black though. No lighter hairs on them that i have been able to see


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

My (uneducated probably totally wrong ) guess is that he is a mealy bay because of the pangare gene? We recently touched on this in an animal science class and now that I am remembering it, that is what I think he is. Like I said though I know nothing. So would love to hear thoughts. If I need better pictures I can grab some


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Definitely not pangare. Pangare has a very "whiteness" to it. Like this guy:


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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

As I understand it, horses that look bay in the summer and brown in the winter are brown. This guy looks like he is just a furrier version of bay in the winter so I will say bay.


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

So far 1 vote for brown and 1 vote for bay then. Any more thoughts out there? Would also love to hear reasons why he is said color. I am trying to lean as much as i can.

And yes Melissaann he stays relatively the same. The lightening up of his muzzle area did not occur last year. And usually when he sheds out in the spring he is a deep rich red brown until he gets faded by the sun. He is a lot more red this winter.

I will try to get some more pics sometime this week in better lighting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

My personal guess would have to be bay


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I only see lightening of the muzzle in the one picture, which leaves me wondering if it's a trick of the lighting. In every other picture, I'd guess a bay horse, and since you say he doesn't vary much seasonally, I'm going to go with bay (at least until more pictures make me change my mind )


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

I went to see him yesterday evening and it is not a trick of the lighting. The lighter muzzle area is definitely there. I tried to get some pics while I cleaned out his stall but the sun angle was wreaking havoc. I will try again later this week. Still no appearance of those lighter hairs anywhere else. It's like it gets more prominent everyday though. If he turns out to be a brown I will feel so disillusioned!! Hahaha
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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

If the lightening of the muzzle is a seasonal thing...like it only happens when he gets a winter coat....I am sticking with Bay.


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

Yes it only happens with his winter coat. And actually this is only his 2nd winter that I've seen, but it did not happen last winter. I wonder why it has happened this year!
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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

The lightening of the soft points in winter and seasonal changes is actually a strong indicator that he's actually brown. There are a few horses at the barn I was boarding/working at that I was positive were bay, but now that it's winter, their muzzled lightened and I've changes my opinion to brown lol.
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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

is it just the muzzle, or does he get light in other areas also?


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

It is just his muzzle. No sign of the blonde hairs anywhere else. He is still the same old reddish brown everywhere else except for the tips of his ears and all 4 legs which are black.
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## tjans8787 (Nov 13, 2012)

I would say this horse is bay. He has black points. I have what they call a brown horse and my horse is the same color on her entire body. Some think that she is a dark bay, but she is brown. So, my vote is bay.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

That is a strange case... I'd expect the muzzle to lighten every winter on a brown horse. I suspect that only a DNA test will tell you for certain whether or not brown is present; PetDNA is the only company that currently offers a test for brown. If you do decide to test, definitely let us know how it turns out 

On a side note, it has been hypothesized that two brown agouti genes lighten a horse more than a single brown agouti gene. Given how light your horse is, it would be interesting to see if this hypothesis is true and he is homozygous for brown (At/At)


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

Thanks Verona! I am going to check that website out  I am thinking I am going to get the DNA test bcause I'm curious. I know his papers say he is Bay but I have heard that doesnt mean anything since AQHA doesnt always distinguish between brown/bay So would brown not be present on a true bay horse? What would I be looking for? I will for sure share the results.

I didnt snap any pictures this morning when I went to feed him but I am going out in a few more hours and hopefully I will be able to grab some really good pictures without the sun messing everything up. He was back to being his normal chocolate color today (which makes me think the redder tone in his body was indeed a trick of the sun). 

His muzzle was still blonde but WAY less so. It was fuzzier and most of the fuzz was brown, covering up the blonde hairs. Is that normal? Is it a sign of anything I should be worried about? Like I said, the blonde muzzle didnt happen last year .. but he never really got much of a winter coat which I assumed was because he was so underfed, etc.

Checked all over for more blonde hairs again this morning and nothing. His black points are darker because of the new hair growth and the fact he is in a stall so they cant get faded, but they are still black. He is getting more black hair on his ears though. It is starting to cover up the entire ear instead of just the tip


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

Sorry for the double post, but this is PETDNA's list of tests.

Which test would I order, Verona?

Horses
➡Recessive Non-Agouti (‘a’) [$25 per animal]
➡Seal Brown (‘At’) [$40 per animal]
➡Comprehensive Agouti = ‘a’ plus ‘At’ combined [$60 per animal]


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Depends on whether you're willing to risk losing $5 

If you do just the Seal Brown 'At' test, it will tell if there are 0, 1, or 2 copies of At present. If the result is 0 or 2, you have a clear result. 0 would mean your horse is definitely not brown, and 2 would mean your horse is definitely brown. When you have only 1 copy present, that's when the test for recessive non-agouti 'a' comes in.

Brown 'At' is recessive to classic bay 'A', so if you have a horse with only one 'At' gene, and the other gene is 'A' your horse is At/A, and visually a classic bay. However, if the other gene is the recessive 'a' then your horse is At/a and is brown. (Technically there's a possibility that the other gene is wild bay, 'A+', but there's no genetic test for that right now and it is assumed to be quite rare).

So, if you do the Seal Brown test first for $40, and it comes back with a result of 0 or 2 'At' genes present, the mystery is solved, you know what your horse is, and you have saved $20-25. However, you can still get the more ambiguous result of 1, and you'd have to send in another sample and request the Recessive Non-Agouti test for $25. There's only a $5 difference in price between ordering the tests separately versus ordering them together, so it really boils down to how lucky you feel


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

Thanks Verona! Gonna pull the hairs required for the sample tonight!  
Can't wait to find out! All of this talking about it has got me curious


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## SunnyMeadeFarm (Sep 3, 2012)

I would personally say hes a Bay, because of how solid the black on his legs are. The mane is not always as dark on bays.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

SunnyMeadeFarm said:


> I would personally say hes a Bay, because of how solid the black on his legs are. The mane is not always as dark on bays.


Solid legs do not differentiate between brown and bay. Both are different mutations of the same gene, so both have black on the "hard" points of the horse - legs, mane, tail.


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

*Updated full body pics*

Snapped some good pics tonight! The sun was not in the way and it made me realize how he is not as red as i thought he was. He is pretty much the same color he is in the summer, only fluffier except for his muzzle. The pictures show this but there is no other lighter coloring on any other soft point. So is he still a brown?

Here are the pics! Please ignore the saddle mark. I tried a new saddle on him while he was tied and his hair was all fluffed up after I took it off. We did not ride ( i wish ). And also please ignore my finger in the corner of one picture. I was blocking the glare from the sun.

The first 5 are pics from today of his winter coat. The rest are ones of him faded out this summer, but to show that his general color does indeed stay relatively close besides the muzzle. And again, this is the first year the muzzle has done this. Thanks guys! Hope these new pics help


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I am leaning toward brown, but he is one I wouldn't bet on until he was tested lol. You can see a touch of lightening just under his flank, more on his belly than his side. It also looks like he has a touch of it just behind his eye.


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

I pulled the hairs today and am going to try and get it all in the mail to PetDNA tomorrow. Can you tell I'm dying to find out now?? 

Thanks for all the input all! If you would like to keep guessing go ahead! We can see who is right once the test comes in


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Woohoo! I can't wait to see the results, either


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Hi Drifting Shadow, I would lean towards bay, but I'm a little shaky on the brown vs. bay debate myself. I'd like to hear what the genetic test says. I just recently learned (through this forum in fact!) that my horse, who I've always thought was bay, is more likely classified as brown. I've included some pictures of her below. Colour can be confusing sometimes - I'm still trying to wrap my head around it!

P.S. Your horse is cute, what breed is he?


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## Standardbred (Dec 21, 2011)

I say he is definitely a bay.
The black on the legs and the black mane and tail gives it away.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Standardbred said:


> I say he is definitely a bay.
> The black on the legs and the black mane and tail gives it away.


Brown horses also have black on the legs, mane and tail. So that is not any sort of indicator to use to form an opinion.


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

Glynnis- I would have thought your horse was brown. The only reason I was convinced drifter was bay because he did not shed out lighter on the muzzle last winter, but now he has. I am excited to see what the tests say.

And thank you! I think he's pretty great but I'm also kind of biased  he is an Appendix, but more TB than anything. There is not a lot of QH in the QH side of his lines, but oh well
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Glynnis said:


> Hi Drifting Shadow, I would lean towards bay, but I'm a little shaky on the brown vs. bay debate myself. I'd like to hear what the genetic test says. I just recently learned (through this forum in fact!) that my horse, who I've always thought was bay, is more likely classified as brown. I've included some pictures of her below. Colour can be confusing sometimes - I'm still trying to wrap my head around it!
> 
> P.S. Your horse is cute, what breed is he?
> 
> ...



Oh yeah, your girl is definitely what we call a BAB - a bad *** brown ;-)


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## jumpinggirl (Nov 14, 2012)

I really like his coloring, hes like a pretty blood bay (at least that's what it looks like in the pictures) But yea I would have to say he is a bay.


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## AllAroundHorseGirl (Nov 14, 2012)

I'm going to say he is definitely a bay. He has gorgeous face markings by the way!


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

Thank you allaround! And yes jumpinggirl, if he is indeed a bay I would say he is a blood bay. Sent the DNA sample in yesterday. Now to just wait and see...

*whistles jeopardy tune*
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## TaraBearaIsBack (Oct 12, 2012)

All of my bay horses get lighter noses in the winter... With the black points I have no doubt that he is bay.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

TaraBearaIsBack said:


> All of my bay horses get lighter noses in the winter... With the black points I have no doubt that he is bay.


Brown horses DO have BLACK POINTS too. If you bays are getting noticeably lighter noses in winter, chances are they are brown too.


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## TaraBearaIsBack (Oct 12, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Brown horses DO have BLACK POINTS too. If you bays are getting noticeably lighter noses in winter, chances are they are brown too.


I don't consider blood bays that get light noses in the winter browns at all. They are definitely bay and I would know.. I have a gelding that is dark brown/bay and his nose depending on the time can get lighter but my other bays that are red brown still get light noses.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

TaraBearaIsBack said:


> I don't consider blood bays that get light noses in the winter browns at all. They are definitely bay and I would know.. I have a gelding that is dark brown/bay and his nose depending on the time can get lighter but my other bays that are red brown still get light noses.


Ok, I get this. They have brown bodies and black points, ergo they must be bay. I get that all your life you have been told this. However, science has passed the point where we just have to blindly believe that. The gene that causes brown as opposed to bay has been isolated. It does exist. It is a mutation of the bay gene, so still restricts black to the points of the horse. The visible difference is that a bay horse stays an even colour all year round - a brown horse will usually have a change of colour from season to season, and the colouring does not stay even, instead the "soft" parts of the horse are paler (muzzle, elbow, flank etc.).


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## DriftingShadow (Jun 4, 2012)

DNA results are in! He is AT/A. So...bay...right? I am on my phone now but when I get back to the house later I will take a picture of the results for you all
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## Reno Bay (Jul 8, 2012)

If you got the $60 test that tests for At and a and got a result of AAt, then he is bay carrying brown.


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

I am going to say bay. I don't know much about genetics or anything, but I had a bay mare that always had a lighter muzzle in the winter. He is beautiful either way


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