# I ran Rusty into a tree



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Rusty is a cool dude. He loves trails. But sometimes, he decides he wants to run and it's not always in a place where I can allow it. So yesterday, DD and I decided to explore a new trail that runs behind the neighbors' properties (with their permission of course). As soon as we left our usual trail to go on this new one, he started to trot, then canter. Well, there are very low branches on this stretch, any one of which can take me right off the saddle. We get through there by laying on our horses' backs. 

So as he took off, I did the usual fruitless attempts to stop him. One rein stop, etc. But as always, nothing worked. So I turned him in towards the trees on the side of the trail. It didn't deter him. He ran headfirst into a tree. Literally, he stuck his face right into the trunk of an old fir. Ended up with a bunch of twigs attached to his bridle. I was able to lean over and pick them off.

Thoughts on whether this is a bad idea? After I did this, anytime he would suddenly decide to speed up (he also does it on a downhill stretch), I would do a half-halt and he would immediately slow down again. I think he figured out that this crazy lady on his back was just nuts enough to run him into a tree so he'd better listen, lol. He's a quirky fellow, but you can get through to him if you're just as quirky. You just need some creativity.

What else would you do to slow down an over-enthusiastic horse? I can't practice the one-rein stop in the arena because he never gets very excited in there. Turning him only results in him cantering sideways. He's remarkably flexible that way. :shock:


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

*My first question is what are you riding him in in his mouth?*

If you have a headstrong horse who you know is going to do certain actions no matter what amount of training you put on him then you need to just occasionally up the ante and make it unpleasant a experience for "Rusty" in this case.
Flay me if you want...
Running into trees is very risky for the horse and for the rider as a means of stopping your horse.
Impaling a branch into the horses face or yours is not unheard of, nor is breaking a neck.
For someone like you who rides with I bet a loose rein or soft contact and think you are into bitless with riding on trails...yes, my upping the ante is that horse would have a short curved shank solid mouth bit in his mouth next trail-ride out.
Yes, intentional he will get poll pressure and jaw pressure to change his train of thought and have him take notice of you and your directions.
I'm not going to play games with a broken mouth, direct rein snaffle bit...I *want* some heft to my gently given direction of slow down, turn, halt and stand-still when needed, as needed.
If I need to apply force and muscle the animal I surely can!
You have said Rusty is bull-headed about some things I believe in the past...if this is one of those things no amount of your training response systems can work through, then do what you must to keep you both safer.
And yes, a bit is only as strong as the person holding the reins makes it, _the horse dictates_ with a good rider how much of a hold you take to their mouth and body.
Your horse, with what you describe is downright bolting which is darn scary to ride and impossible to control = dangerous for both your safety.
Yes, you can only work your issue on the trail...doesn't happen elsewhere and elsewhere he is a gem to ride..
It _*is*_ very common that what a horse works in/as in one environment doesn't work everyplace...
Mental stimulation of your lazy nature horse on the trail brings out a different mindset, one you now need to make clearly understood he is not going to like the response he brings to himself when he stops listening to you.
_He gets what he deserves..._
Bit him up, but only use that bit with the capabilities of what it can do if you really take a hold as needed...
Don't be afraid to use that bit either to save your bacon!!

Rusty is smart...he figured out he can do as he pleases running on the trail.
Rusty will very quickly learn he can no longer be a bull and ignore you or_ he pays the penalty._
_*Rusty has your number and is taking advantage*...time to even the score and gain back some respect._
:runninghorse2:...
_That is my opinion..._


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

It sounds like he has some leeway right now to choose the speed/gait without your direction. That can be nice, but can also be a slippery slope if the horse doesn't easily come back to you. Might want to remove that privilege for now until he's more responsive to you saying it's time to transition down a gait. You could do lots of planned transitions where you are clearing deciding "now we speed up" and expect him to stay in that gait until you say "now we slow down." If you have steep hills, sometimes that can work to your advantage if you are asking for a faster gait up the hill knowing the horse may appreciate taking a deep breath and slowing down at the top. It certainly doesn't sound fun to have to run the horse into a tree, and dangerous as HLG outlined. I'd think of a different strategy.


Edited to add: I do think it's important that a horse that's really enthusiastic to go gets the chance to move out during the ride. My own horse, if I ride with my riding buddy who has a much slower walk, I find that if I'm spending a lot of time holding her back, she gets more and more resentful and then if I do ask her to trot or canter, it's a bit of an explosion. One thing that has worked for us is mounting up and trotting right off right at the very beginning of the ride. When she starts off having the chance to really move her feet and go forward, she seems much less irritated later in the ride when there are reasons I'm asking her to stay at a walk.


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## duskexx (May 8, 2019)

You said you can make him turn, right? 1've never ridden a horse like that personally, but this is advice my brother has been given on a horse similar to yours (except on cross country). As soon as he gets even the tiniest bit excited, make him do circles, spiraling in, leg yielding, bending, etc, until he's as calm as you want. Then you continue, and if he gets excited again, rinse and repeat. Make sure he's moving his feet though, if you just wheel him around on the spot he will just get more excited. It is also important to do this before he takes off. The idea is to get his mind back on you, and not running off.

Second hand advice, I know, but maybe it will help? I've also heard of people teaching a halt queue from canter in the round yard/arena, so if their horse takes off they just say the queue and usually, it's enough to gain back enough control. Dunno if that would work, just an idea.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

My oldest horse used to do that to me. I can't tell you how many times we had a perfect trail ride and then suddenly he would go... and go... and the speed would intensify. I would have his nose touching my knee while he ran straight ahead. I would jerk and pull and get mad. My remedy probably won't work for you and it wasn't exactly safe. I would swing my leg out of the saddle as if I were dismounting. He thought he won because I was getting off so he would slow or stop and then I would plant my seat back in the saddle but this time I'd be ready and spin circles without allowing him to stop. I sometimes would spend thirty minutes spinning circles as I went down a trail. I didn't have a trainer back then. I was a know it all teen and there was no horseforum so I figured things out as I went. They may not have been the smartest options but they worked. 

I wasn't typing this to give any kind of advice, I just remember going through what you described and I wanted to respond so that you know you aren't the only one this has happened to.

I was never brave enough to run him into an object because I didn't think he would stop.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

This is one of the few situations where I think going to a bit with more "oomph" might be the right call.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

SteadyOn said:


> This is one of the few situations where I think going to a bit with more "oomph" might be the right call.


Maybe even trying a hackamore? The different pressure points may make the difference. I'd try it first in a ring though.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks all. So, to answer your question HLG, I ride him in a single-joined snaffle. I have ridden him bitless (even tackless) in the arena, but would not try that on a trail just yet. And I ride with full contact at all times, very short reins, and making sure he knows I am there every step of the way. Not pulling, just keeping elastic contact. No riding on the buckle with him just yet, except at the end of a ride in the arena when he's tired out. 

And to be clear, he's not your super-energetic type. He just gets excited once in a while, then settles right back down. I'm sure he would take a few canter strides, then come back down. He's got more whoa than go. Problem is that I can't let him decide when he wants to take those few canter strides, and this was not a good place to do it. I am keeping him at a walk on trails for now, until he can show me that he's responsive. So no, he doesn't get to choose the gait. He can walk fast, but he has to stay at the walk. 

And we weren't running full speed into the tree. He slowed down. I thought for sure he would stop before he got there... there was plenty of time, and I was reining him back the whole time thinking surely he will stop before we get to the tree. But nope. 

Transitions may help, and I did a bunch of those afterwards. Circles don't do much. I'm hesitant to put a harsher bit in his mouth, but also very aware that he is not listening -- or only listening when he chooses to do so, which is about 95% of the time. After the tree event, he was perfect, even going downhill and even exploring new areas which normally gets him excited. We even went out into an open field where he would normally want to run, but nope. He was fine after that. But I agree, it's not the best way to cope with this situation.

I think he just needs lots and lots of trail practice, and I've been busy with DD on the show circuit. He is definitely very stubborn at times though, and this is something we will have to figure out. 

Thanks for your suggestions everyone - I'll try some out to see if it helps.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I was taught a concept of "woah-cement", named so because the walls of the arena were cement for about 3ft up. The idea was you can use the walls to stop if the horse isn't otherwise respecting your aids. It's not for using at full speeds, usually for a horse who takes off after a fence. That way you are not pulling on them like crazy and they get the message of stopping. 

I might not have gone for a tree, too small of a target, too easy to dodge around at the last minute and get unseated.

Do more arena work on the trails. Leg yields, shoulder in, transitions, ect.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks all. So, to answer your question HLG, I ride him in a single-joined snaffle. I have ridden him bitless (even tackless) in the arena, but would not try that on a trail just yet. And I ride with full contact at all times, very short reins, and making sure he knows I am there every step of the way. Not pulling, just keeping elastic contact.
> 
> I'm hesitant to put a harsher bit in his mouth.



Good to know about the bit...
However, the bit change is a mind change to stimulation actually as a solid bar works on different parts of the mouth and poll, jaw pressure is a "wake-up" to him.
It is said that a solid bar, just a mullen mouth bit with shank is kinder in the mouth than a broken mouth snaffle in actuality.
Where it changes is you adding leverage points...

That change may be just enough to smarten up Rusty's brain to listen to you, excited or not.
Rusty did the same thing to himself by hitting that tree...wake-up but that type of action, tree-hitting, is not one I would want to do again ever.
:runninghorse2:...


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

This is similar to driving the drafts. A well trained driving horse is very light in the bit if trained correctly and brought on in a manner that says you don't need much (verbal cue, tug - keep in mind distance) to get the job done. BUT on the road many that I know and have worked with (myself included) use bits with a mullen mouth and military elbows with 4 settings. In the ring is the most comfortable, least pressure/lightest pressure only if you are signaling. At home working in a space where there is little distraction, no hazzards then reins in the ring. On the road working with a seasoned horse you'll see one or even two down. Put them in a Mardi Gras parade and it is 3 or 4 down. They know WHOA but if they can't hear, are distracted, not listening even a tug gets their attention and says HEY YOU I AM THE BRAIN in this outfit. If, heaven forbid, you have to stop on a dime you have the incentive for them to STOP. I've never used it/had to use it but the one time I needed it; it wasn't what was in the horse's mouth because the owner harnessed, didn't see the need because her very green (NOT road ready) horse was paired with a seasoned, older trainer horse. The young one stepped over the pole and panicked. She took off in a blind run, dragging the older horse and 14 passengers plus the owner (driver) and me. The owner was thrown clear and seriously injured and I was so fortunate to be able to grab the reins. I ran her into a parked car. She totaled it as she went up the side/back and ended up straddling it over the roof. Flattened it. It was that or my choice of oncoming traffic, Stout, 6 strand, 5 foot tall, barbed wire fence or up a train embankment that could have resulted in flipping the vehicle. That horse was under my training. She was no where near ready for going out, much less in a working situation. She had been introduced to that bit. She knew what it meant. She would have at the very least been manageable depending on which hole the reins were in. I had a prior injury (torn rotator cuff ) and was not supposed to be in any position to have reins in my hand at that point. I tore that entire shoulder apart and seriously injured the other side as well. All for the lack of the bit that could have stopped the entire mess before it even happened. 



As HLG said - you are a very conscientious rider. You are aware of your hands. You are comfortable in your body and in the saddle. You are soft when you ride. Bitting up for you is insurance. It is not the way you will ride. You may actually find he becomes even softer.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I would put a one-rein stop on that horse a.s.a.p. Essentially it is just being able to spin your horse around by grabbing one rein. You start teaching it a standstill. Though I don't think it is nearly as useful for stopping a horse which is bolting, as stopping a bolt before it happens. I've used it to stop a spook-spin-bolt right at the spook part, more than a few times. 

I also think you should work on walk to trot and trot to walk transitions a lot on the trail. No cantering at all, until he is very responsive to those transitions. Then start with canter to trot to walk to canter to trot .... he needs to keep listening at any gait. 

Brooke is another more whoa than go horse, but she can get excited at the canter on the trail. Sometimes if there's a long straightaway (especially one with some uphill at the end) I just let her run as fast as she wants, which can be flat out, at least for half a minute or so. But I didn't allow this for the first couple of years. I didn't trust her enough.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

We call that spaghetti horse and it seems my family loves those type of horses. When my DD brought Sawyer home she would do this as well. She is a young/green horse and sometimes the excitement of it all was just too much and she did not listen to the bitless bridle. My daughter transitioned to an "S" hack after trying various bits that still did not work. The "S" hack has been great at getting a little more control and teaching Sawyer relief when she gives.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Hmmmm sorry to read this but glad to know I'm not alone. I do wonder if I also need to bit up but just temporarily for my first rides out end of this month. I made up a training schedule and am sticking to it. End of Aug is my first self-assigned 30min schooling followed by 10minutes hack at a trot only (once across the road and on the trail). Will try it in her current bit first. I also been practicing stopping suddenly from a trot and canter in the arena (shes forward but i make sure to push us to get a solid attempt) and it has given my confidence in her stopping power. I dont overdo it as worry about injury. I strongly underestimated her ability to stop on a dime from anything more than a walk o.o obviously I'd not do it on bad footing at ridiculous speed but it gives me more leeway as by the time my brain catches up shes already pounding ground. Shes not spaghetti thank goodness!!!!!!! What a good term. Anyway i will let you know how it goes as i think you and i are the exact same - we need to let them go to get them back. It's something my old instructor also used to say. But until we are happy getting them back we are scared to let them go not because of speed but safety 😞 what a hard circle to break! 

I defo prefer a fence compared to a tree though! The fact he ran into it doesn't surprise me at all what a cheeky booger!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

farmpony84 said:


> My oldest horse used to do that to me. I can't tell you how many times we had a perfect trail ride and then suddenly he would go... and go... and the speed would intensify. I would have his nose touching my knee while he ran straight ahead. I would jerk and pull and get mad. My remedy probably won't work for you and it wasn't exactly safe. I would swing my leg out of the saddle as if I were dismounting. He thought he won because I was getting off so he would slow or stop and then I would plant my seat back in the saddle but this time I'd be ready and spin circles without allowing him to stop. I sometimes would spend thirty minutes spinning circles as I went down a trail. I didn't have a trainer back then. I was a know it all teen and there was no horseforum so I figured things out as I went. They may not have been the smartest options but they worked.
> 
> I wasn't typing this to give any kind of advice, I just remember going through what you described and I wanted to respond so that you know you aren't the only one this has happened to.
> 
> I was never brave enough to run him into an object because I didn't think he would stop.





Trigger. This was Trigger. Still is, but he's listening better these days. We still have to do the cool down circles, and sometimes I do what you did - act like I'm getting out of the saddle. He'll stop every time. I don't always get out of the saddle though. 

Conversely, Leroy, whom I sold because he was a pig headed lout, would get set on a single course/direction, and wouldn't stop. It wasn't that he was running away with anyone, he just wouldn't acknowledge any attempts at changing his direction. He'd brace against the bit, wouldn't turn his head, and even keep walking forward with his head snugged up against your leg.


I fully believe he'd have walked off a cliff and killed himself and whoever was on him, he would get so dead set on having his way, no matter the terrain. If he could see a line through the woods, down a mountain, or across a road, he was by God going and it didn't matter where his feet went or that you, the person, couldn't fit under the tree limbs or didn't want to get raked through the honey locust trees, or hit by a bus. He was going straight on.


My daughter 'let' him do it one time with her... and he wasn't paying attention, he was fighting so hard to not go around a tree, that he plowed right into it, headfirst. Skinned his noggin and rung his bell, he hit it so hard. 

Didn't change his way of thinking though. That's why I sold him. He was going to get someone hurt with his pig-headed, stubborn fit throwing.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

You're a fairly inexperienced rider on a green horse. He seems like a wonderful green horse but that's sometimes worse because you forget they are green. I think this horse needs a LOT more training then he has, I think you'll be able to do a lot of it yourself given your circumstances but this seems to be becoming more and more of an issue. I remember your first post of "he ran off on me!". I would definitely recommend outside help before he's learned that he's in charge, if he hasn't already. Maybe it's not a rear or a buck or a true bolt but this is equally dangerous and WILL become a habit (sounds like maybe it has)


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> You're a fairly inexperienced rider on a green horse. He seems like a wonderful green horse but that's sometimes worse because you forget they are green. I think this horse needs a LOT more training then he has, I think you'll be able to do a lot of it yourself given your circumstances but this seems to be becoming more and more of an issue. I remember your first post of "he ran off on me!". I would definitely recommend outside help before he's learned that he's in charge, if he hasn't already. Maybe it's not a rear or a buck or a true bolt but this is equally dangerous and WILL become a habit (sounds like maybe it has)


Yes, I'd love to find a professional to put training on him, but currently, I'm broke, so that's not going to happen.

To be clear, it is not becoming a habit - we had 10 flawless rides between him deciding he wanted to gallop down a hill and not stopping before we were in a tree. And after the tree incident, we had a lovely ride where he listened to each one of my half-halts when I felt him getting a little excited. By the end he was totally quiet and actually lagged behind DD and Harley by quite a bit. He does get quite excited in the first 10 minutes of a ride, but then settles in. This happened within those first 10 minutes. 

I'm not saying it was a good idea, and I may just try a full-cheek snaffle on him (since I happen to have one kicking around) to see if it makes a difference. As HLG points out, just the fact that it feels different might get his attention. But we didn't run into the tree at full speed. By the time he put his head in it, we were pretty much at a walk, which is why I thought it was funny that he did it anyway. It would have been easy for him to stop. I was telling him to stop. Comical, really, that he went ahead and put his face in it, but he didn't have a scratch on his face, nor did he hit it hard. Essentially, the trails here are lined with dense forest, so I just turned him into it to remove the temptation of speeding up more. It worked, sort of. But yeah, not the best technique, I agree. 

I'll try a different bit and will work on transitions in the arena. Especially at the canter, he does tend to ignore me, but never for long because I have yet to convince him to actually canter all the way around the arena. After 3-5 strides, he's had enough. He's different on a trail though, and gets really excited to explore new places. It's just a matter of putting in lots of miles I think, and I wish I had more time to do that.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

The fact that it's happening more then once shows it's becoming a habit, good rides are great but it should be happening never. Quality over quantity, he needs more miles sure, but not letting him do this is more important then anything else, not how to deal with it or getting him out more etc.

Prevention is key, why are you letting him trot if he's going to start to canter? You need to be strong, no it's not fun, but he NEEDS to listen. Strength comes from your core not just your arms. If I have a horse that wants to go I MAKE them walk, if they really want to go this often ends up in us jigging all around, but at least they listen. (and if they want to go that bad you need to consider why). You need the proper tools to hold him back. You really need to be the rider and not the passenger here. Someone riding him would help but he'll just do it again with you so teaching you to be a STRONG rider is more important. This doesn't mean hauling him around, this means fitness/strength and knowing how to use it if you need to. You can be soft and strong, if you genuinely can't hold him then yes, bit him up. Letting a green horse learn a bad habit is extremely difficult to get past. You can't be soft unless you are strong, and you can't teach him to listen to soft if you can't get him to listen to strong! Soft is something you work towards, but you need to be able to back that up otherwise ultimately the horse will do whatever it wants, which might be to listen to you...until it isn't.

It's worth playing with different bits. You don't necessarily need to go crazy. Like I said prevention is the most important part and you haven't explained what happened, it sounded like you let him speed up then couldn't get him to stop? Simply don't let him, YOU pick what you do. And whenever you get the time maybe work on listening at a canter somewhere he wants to go, but make sure you plan that intentionally and are able to get the desired response. He needs to be 100% at a walk before you can expect him to listen at a canter when excited. I think working on the basics is just as important. And I'd look up different emergency stops, it's not just one, and emergency stops aren't about being pretty or nice to the horse, they are often quite the opposite, and it's about regaining control.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Yep, this is a situation where I'd be upping the ante on his bit, too. Put a mechanical hack on him over his regular bridle and use it HARD when he tries to tank off. Or a curb bit, or whatever you want--- but one that will back him off and make him respectful. If he's quiet and obedient the rest of the ride, then the big ol' bit isn't going to be uncomfortable for him so don't feel guilty about it. I would ride a horse like this in a pelham or double bridle, so if he needs it, that curb is there. If not, we ride on the snaffle. 

If you want to keep him in a snaffle, would a running martingale help? When does his delightful little trick, where's his head? If his nose is out, a running martingale adjusted a little tighter than normal would also not be a bad idea. 

Having seen the aftermath of a horse who spooked a few jumps and headfirsted into a tree and ran a short branch right into his eye and brain, it's not something I'd recommend...

Rusty sounds like a great little horse, but he does need more training before this becomes a habit, escalates in intensity, and one or both of you is hurt. I'd work on him in an arena and put a good one-rein stop on him right now. Not a 'bend your head around and keep going' thing, but a STOP. On a horse who bends his head around but won't turn, I ride in spurs and have no qualms about reaching forward and spurring that outside shoulder until he learns he has to follow his nose and not take off with me. It usually only takes a few tries before the horse realizes his little trick isn't going to work, learns the response I want, and our issues are over. I'd rather really get after a horse a few times than have one that continually does an annoying or dangerous habit and ends up hurting one or both of us. Rusty's 'minor issue' could be a major issue if he ever does it on a trail with a drop-off or on a road with oncoming traffic. It IS an evasion, and it needs to stop.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Yeah, I second the playing with different bits idea, but do be careful. It's easy to equate a bigger bit with better brakes. I made that mistake and it was a miserable time for me and the horse both... All I needed was a three piece mouth piece bit (Life saver) with shanks and a properly adjusted curb chain.... and a lot of cool down circles. I also had to recognize very early and quickly the signs of Trigger about to 'get away from me'. Riding narrow, twisty trails with thick growth on either side really curtailed his desire to run off with people, and hauling him away from home, riding him on long rides with nothing to look forward to when we got back to camp, except hay, water, and standing around until we went out again, also helped curtail his problems.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I am NOT letting him trot on the trail. I will only let him walk until he shows me he can be good. He sped up. I do use my core and I am stronger than most women I know. 

We were walking. We turned onto a new trail and there was a slight downhill grade so he started trotting. I told him to stop, tried to turn him into a circle, he kept going so I aimed him at a tree. That was my emergency stop, lol. 

But I get it, not the best idea. It was effective though, because he listened after that. Will look at other emergency stops. 

I don't think it's a habit to speed up unasked just because he did it twice in a summer, and I am very aware that this is not something I want to tolerate. He's stubborn and green, and he will test me. But with patience and persistence, he gives in eventually. 

I do like @Kalraii's idea of practicing stopping from various gaits in the arena. That's something we can incorporate into our rides, as well as doing lots of transitions on the trail. Which is what I did after the tree incident, actually. Half-halts when he got a little excited, transitions here and there. And the rest of the ride was perfect.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Yes, work in stopping from all gaits in an arena, on a voice and rein cues then on a voice cue alone. Get him to where he will stop on a voice cue only, and immediately from all gaits. I back up several steps after each stop when training this. It gets the horse off his front end, gets the back end under him, and mentally teaches him that 'whoa' means 'shut it down now'. Then work on that outside the arena with a few distractions, then up the ante until you get it even in a new place with a group of horses and when he's excited. Lots of rollbacks along the fence also help teach this. Lope along about 12' out from a fence, say whoa, stop, then roll the horse back INTO the fence and lope off the other way. When he gets revved up, shut him down and roll him back into the fence again. Let him learn to control and rate himself. Think about it-- there's no way we, as people, can forcefully control a 1200 pound horse. What we're really doing is teaching him to control himself. This exercise works wonders for that. You can start at a trot if you want, too. Ask for the trot, and when he speeds up on his own, shut him down, roll him back, and try again. When he's got the idea there, do it at a lope. Anytime he speeds up without you asking, shut him down and turn him. Let him realize he needs to stay at the gait and speed you put him in until you ask him to speed up or slow down. This basic exercise is how reiners/cutters/cow horse folks get horses who can run flat out then come back on a soft cue and stop and stand, and who will hold a soft lope and not speed up until asked.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

SilverMaple said:


> Yep, this is a situation where I'd be upping the ante on his bit, too. Put a mechanical hack on him over his regular bridle and use it HARD when he tries to tank off. Or a curb bit, or whatever you want--- but one that will back him off and make him respectful. If he's quiet and obedient the rest of the ride, then the big ol' bit isn't going to be uncomfortable for him so don't feel guilty about it. I would ride a horse like this in a pelham or double bridle, so if he needs it, that curb is there. If not, we ride on the snaffle.
> 
> If you want to keep him in a snaffle, would a running martingale help? When does his delightful little trick, where's his head? If his nose is out, a running martingale adjusted a little tighter than normal would also not be a bad idea.
> 
> ...


I also use a pelham or double. I have also used a kimberwick successfully. That style seems to do the trick beautifully!

And agree completely, right now it may be a slight annoyance but it's headed down a clear path.

I'm glad you're able to be strong physically, just make sure you are strong mentally and don't hesitate to haul on him or kick him etc. "Be nasty". I don't need to tell you this is only if needed, but if needed you do need to up the ante and get more physical with him. Ask tell make, if you reach make you need to do what it takes. It's multi-part, working on overall training and responsiveness, and preventing the situation from occuring but if those things fail you need to be able to make him listen. A hard yank on one side and a heel in the ribs will almost always get them to turn, it sounds like (so far) you've been able to shut him down before he's an actual runaway, at a trot he should still be fairly controllable even if you don't have brakes. An actual runaway like some of the scary stories shared WILL NOT STOP, Rusty isn't a runaway he's making a conscious choice to ignore you (almost worse, because he's choosing to be bad vs blind reaction!) so you have a chance of a response if you act right, timing is key, a horse in a blind panic you don't. It's not anything you've written just from all your posts over the year that make me think you may not be getting after him appropriately. I could be completely wrong, I just know how kind and loving you are with your horses and it can be difficult to really step up like that in situations that call for it. So don't keep on asking when the situation calls for making, and hopefully you won't need to move on to "emergency" measures. My feel (and again, could be completely incorrect) is that you went from asking ineffectively to running him into a tree, while effective obviously not the ideal solution and it doesn't teach him anything.


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

I think with more trail experience he will settle down,he's just ready to move along faster then you want. There are short shanked training bits that have more whoa to them then a regular snaffle. But try the full cheek snaffle first. 

I think redirecting his energy when he wants to speed up would work. Use leg yielding ,half halts like you already do. Halt him have him yield his hindquarters, once you have his attention continue on at a walk. If able,have him zig zag through the trees so not just going straight ,keeps them thinking watching where they are going. Rusty is smart so I don't think it will take much to teach him ,that no you don't want to go cantering down the hill. 

Sometimes putting a bit with shanks and curb chain is all that's needed,I had to put a shanked bit on my gelding for trail riding. Just some ideas that have worked for my horse.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks @SilverMaple! That sounds like a very useful exercise. I like the idea of teaching a vocal cue. I don't regret turning him into a tree since he did not get hurt and was much better at listening to me after, but I think that it would have been better to avoid it, and at the very least, teaching him a vocal cue will allow me to give him a serious warning before I have to resort to something like this. He knows I mean business. But he's like a 4 year old who wants a candy bar in a store. Every once in a while, he's going to try to get away with stuff. I have no plans of letting him, but it would be a lot fairer and safer if he was taught a cue that would make it very clear that he needs to listen now. 

Because this is not fear or anxiety. He's not shutting down, or running away from something, not bolting or spooking - I had enough of that with Kodak to know the difference. He's just choosing to ignore me. No amount of pulling is working. Will try the roll back exercise along the fence!


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

More stories...
I have a mighty half draft that I worked with for about five years. Very confirmed in his bad habits. Just teaching him to give to the bit, it took both hands holding steady and not pulling on one rein to prevent him jerking the rein out of my hand. I finally found a bit that he would NOT pull against. It's called a Peewee bit. He never got over his sudden attempts to bolt, but the Peewee bit would stop him. I finally got sick of his dangerous behavior and retired him. He is an ex Amish road horse. I think he was thrashed past anything that frightened him. But I sure know how the mind kicks in for self preservation. It can evaluate options instantly. I can envision myself in your situation. Tree. Stop. Good. I ran a pair of driving ponies into a tree to avert a runaway. Worked. Never looked back. but like you, the tree was there before the runaway got started. John Lyons would say, you already know you're in a train wreck. You just have to try to keep the damage to a minimum.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I'd also recommend doing trail rides only when he's tired for awhile. If he's fresh, it's going to be a lot more likely he wants to speed up or go exploring off to one side rather than where you want. Ride for an hour in the arena, and when he's sweaty and a little tired, THEN open the gate and go off your trail ride. Walk along on a loose rein and let him relax. 

I went back and re-read that your ride on contact with a short rein. Well, what if you don't? A lot of horses really don't like contact and don't know what to do with it, and it causes problems. A friend of mine has a TB mare that is a head-tossing, walk-faster, crank of a horse on the trails for her. For me, she walks along as good as gold, and the only difference is that I let her have a loose rein and only take up contact when asking for something, and she rides on contact all of the time. It might be something to try. Short reins and contact can tip you forward onto your pubic bone in the saddle, and then your whole body is telling the horse 'go' and you want him to stop. You think you're supporting the horse, when instead he's constantly waiting for a cue. Try sitting back on your pockets, tucking your tailbone underneath you, and giving Rusty a few more inches of rein and see what happens. If he speeds up, pick up your reins and stop and back him, then let him have more rein again. Let him make a mistake and correct him when he does, rather than trying to prevent the mistake. Sometimes that clear definition between 'go' and 'stop' makes all the difference to a horse mentally.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

This is how I do the rollbacks along the fence --- I start a bit farther from the fence until the horse has the idea -- you want the fence to help him get his rear under him, but not hit his nose--, but it shows the sequence-- trot/lope, stop, back a step, then roll push out. On a catty little stock horse, it's not long before you can do it 4-5 feet out from the fence and the horse will come around like butter. This is an exercise that works wonders on a horse mentally by teaching him to deal with pressure yet control himself.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks for the suggestions on other types of bits too! And zig-zagging on the trail. Will try different things to see if I can get his attention to stay on me.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

It's not that his attention needs to stay on you, it's that if his mind wanders or he focuses on something, that you can get it back.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Another thought is that same with a dog or a horse that wants to go somewhere. Glad he's not barn sour but it works for anything - if they want to go somewhere don't let them until they are polite. It seems odd, but it does work headed away from the barn too. If you seen "forward propulsion" or any sort of excited energy either stop and stand until he is calm or calmly turn him around and walk away, or both. He can proceed forward when calm. I'm leash training two puppies not to pull lol so I was like "wait, duh!". I've used this on barn sour horses but like I said it works for any "I HAVE to go THERE" type of thing. They learn they CAN go there, when they are good, and if they are bad then they can't. The key is to do it very calmly and matter of fact-ly so they realize that THEY get to make the decision on if they can proceed or not.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

You're right to some extent @Yogiwick, that I don't immediately get harsh with a horse - or any other animal for that matter. But I'm getting more confident with Rusty. The issue is that Kodak destroyed all my confidence, so I'm just getting it back. What I've realized with Rusty is that he'll do things like shy away from something, or launch into an unasked canter, but to my amazement, I don't fall off. My heart still beats a little faster, but it's easy to stay on Rusty no matter what he does, even at full gallop down a hill. He just keeps me in the saddle, I don't know how else to explain it, whereas Kodak wouldn't stop until I was on the ground. So I'm learning to up the ante with Rusty because it works. And it's true that I didn't try a lot of things before running into the tree. I should have tried other things. But it did happen very fast, and Harley and DD were behind us so I wanted to stop Rusty fast. My first attempt was turning him into a tight circle, but he only turned about a quarter of the way in then took a stride or two and I let him go into the trees (I mean, I was pulling back the whole time, but he went forward anyway). It literally happened in seconds. So it sounds like the best course of action is for me to work at developing a quicker response in him, and for me to hammer it in my brain as well so it becomes second nature. But really, I don't mind disciplining this horse because I know he needs firm boundaries. Just like a toddler. The difference is that if I tried to discipline Kodak, she exploded even more, but when I do it with Rusty, he does respond, eventually, and I don't come off him. This is what leads me to believe I can deal with him. 

Sure, it sounds worse that he decides to ignore me in some ways, but having dealt with a mare who totally lost her mind in a blind panic anytime something was slightly out of place, I'd rather deal with a stubborn horse than a panicked one any day.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Acadianartist said:


> Thanks @SilverMaple <snip> He's not shutting down, or running away from something, not bolting or spooking - I had enough of that with Kodak to know the difference. He's just choosing to ignore me. No amount of pulling is working. Will try the roll back exercise along the fence!


Just wanted to point out what you already know -- you cannot out-pull a horse, any horse. Your core muscles can't stop a horse. You can be as strong as a weightlifter and a horse can blow you away. What stops a horse is training. Same thing as what starts him and turns him. Only training. You can hurt him more with a stronger bit, but you can't stop him with one if he doesn't want to stop. 

I'm not saying don't move up to a bit he will pay attention to, just for safety's sake at the moment. But it is a bandaid, not a cure.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I'll second the idea of using a Kimberwicke. I'd go to that rather than a full cheek snaffle. The full cheek I'd use if he simply had a problem with turning, but I'd use the Kimberwicke if he was pushing through the stop cues in the snaffle. A lot of trail horses are ridden in Kimberwickes by riders who prefer not having a completely loose rein, because they can be set to not engage the chain until you pull back on the reins a bit. For many horses the chain helps keep the horse from putting the head low and adjusting the bit to a more comfortable place in the mouth they can ignore. It is certainly not a harsh bit, but very useful for strong horses. 

Obviously you didn't realize he would run into the tree. However, I'll say he probably thought he would pass the tree since horses have that blind spot in front of their faces. Just a couple weeks ago another pair of racehorses were killed at the Del Mar track when one got loose and they ran into each other head on. It's common for horses to hit things directly in front of their face. It's something to be careful of on trails. 









During the last run off with Rusty I said he is still green, and what I believe is that he needs a lot more practice cantering on the trails. It sounds like he's even more green at cantering than with the rest of his gaits. Walking and trotting won't teach canter control. For a very green horse this can be accomplished using safe places and other horses that can be used for brakes. 

I'd find some safe places where you can practice cantering. Not by trees or twisting, narrow areas. You need a long, open space with safe footing. A place where it doesn't matter if the horse decides not to stop for a long time, at least a half mile long. Ideally, this would be up a hill, the steeper the better. 
Then you practice deciding to canter, and deciding to slow and stop. That is the kind of practice that will give you control. If you can follow another horse that will pick up the canter and go back to a trot under another rider's direction, that would be ideal. Then Rusty can correlate your instructions with what the other horse is doing. 

You're thinking of him as stubborn, but I would think of him as untrained at the canter. He's not solid enough with the cues yet to listen to them when he is distracted or excited. You'll still need the "100 rides" practice at the canter before you can think of him as trained at the canter. On how many rides has he actually cantered outside the arena? If it's only a handful, you're still in the phase where you could expect bucking or all kinds of silliness.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Acadianartist said:


> I am NOT letting him trot on the trail. I will only let him walk until he shows me he can be good. He sped up. I do use my core and I am stronger than most women I know.
> 
> We were walking. We turned onto a new trail and there was a slight downhill grade so he started trotting. I told him to stop, tried to turn him into a circle, he kept going so I aimed him at a tree. That was my emergency stop, lol.


Do you think the downhill was a significant feature in what happened? How "downhill" are we talking about? If you attempt to walk down a snow-covered ravine in winter, you too will speed up. 

I don't know how many other instances you had with him taking off with you, but this isolated instance is, to me, just proof that he needs more confidence negotiating a downhill with iffy footing. Clinton Anderson says he should go down "like molasses." (Do you have inside jokes with your horse? When I get to a downhill with Hamlet where he'll most likely do some sliding, I tell him to "channel his inner molasses.")


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> But sometimes, he decides he wants to run and it's not always in a place where I can allow it.
> 
> So as he took off, I did the *usual* fruitless attempts to stop him.
> 
> ...



In this particular case, put him in a stronger bit. So that it is at least there IF YOU NEED IT for the 5% of the time. Might want to think about a short shank curb bit.

First you say "he decides" what speed you go, but then later you said he doesn't. I think you need to be honest with yourself that he IS being allowed sometimes to pick the speed, even if it is because he is choosing not to listen to you. 

Make that not an option for him. It should NOT be an option for him to not listen to you, especially speeding up and not slowing down. I have a very hard line in the sand with my horses that when I ask for "whoa" I better get a "whoa". For me, it's a matter of safety and I will not budge on it. 

I can and I have ridden all three of my horses on the trail in a snaffle. I have even rode them to their breeze spot (AKA running full blast) and controlled them beforehand in a snaffle. They can do it. However......... I do not normally do that because I have to be on their mouth more than I want to be with the snaffle. I don't like having to have a strong hand on them because *over time* it will dull their mouth. I want to use a strong enough bit that **IF** if need to, I can get their attention immediately. And then allow me to be light with my cues the rest of the time.



Acadianartist said:


> Especially at the canter, he does tend to ignore me, but never for long because I have yet to convince him to actually canter all the way around the arena. After 3-5 strides, he's had enough


This is the same problem, whether he's not listening to you to keep cantering inside the arena or not listening to you to stop cantering outside the arena. Because it boils down to: He's not listening to you and instead doing what he wants. 

Don't be afraid to be firm. You don't need to be harsh to be firm. Just be firm. If that makes you need to carry a crop in the arena to keep him cantering, do it. Giving him one swift smack with the crop is better than nagging at him the whole time with your legs. Nagging leads to being dull. If he doesn't respond to your aid, then he needs a correction for it. So outside of the arena, that's where it is helpful to use a bigger bit because if you need to, its available to use as a correction for "NO, I told you to slow down." And if you have the right bit, all you have to do is pick up more contact and you should get your point across, and if needed "bump" the bit (not jerk, not pull, not yank, but just an attention "bump"). 




Acadianartist said:


> I can't practice the one-rein stop in the arena because he never gets very excited in there. Turning him only results in him cantering sideways. He's remarkably flexible that way.


This is a different issue than the ones above, but he needs to learn to "follow his nose" and you can help him do that by using your LEGS. He's not being flexible. He's using a different tactic to ignore what you are requesting, by turning his nose one way but continuing his body in another. This is probably why your one-rein stop usually doesn't work, because he doesn't "follow his nose". So this is something to work on in the arena and advance his training on body control.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

With my guy I did do a ton of serpentine and small circles. We never walked a straight line. We did S's and spirals and directional changes. We did a ton of walk/trotting and very little cantering. The cantering was really short distances. A straight line and a halt or down to a trot and then after several minutes a half circle and back down to a trot and then on and on. I did that for an entire summer one year. (I didn't show that summer because he had been so rotten). The next year I showed him again and he was champion of his division. It was kind of funny....I was training him without even realizing it. 

It did help for trail riding as well but I Don't think I knew it was helping with that. No realization that what I was doing was a good thing. I never could go with a harsh bit on him because he was a rearer (A 15 year olds first horse ... you know the story... he loves me and only me and I trained him myself and I was Parelli before Parellis was cool... and before he was a kook...LOL) I think that would help you and yours....


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

gottatrot said:


> I'll second the idea of using a Kimberwicke. I'd go to that rather than a full cheek snaffle. The full cheek I'd use if he simply had a problem with turning, but I'd use the Kimberwicke if he was pushing through the stop cues in the snaffle. A lot of trail horses are ridden in Kimberwickes by riders who prefer not having a completely loose rein, because they can be set to not engage the chain until you pull back on the reins a bit. For many horses the chain helps keep the horse from putting the head low and adjusting the bit to a more comfortable place in the mouth they can ignore. It is certainly not a harsh bit, but very useful for strong horses.
> 
> Obviously you didn't realize he would run into the tree. However, I'll say he probably thought he would pass the tree since horses have that blind spot in front of their faces. Just a couple weeks ago another pair of racehorses were killed at the Del Mar track when one got loose and they ran into each other head on. It's common for horses to hit things directly in front of their face. It's something to be careful of on trails.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'm aware that horses have a blind spot. Maybe he didn't think he was running into a tree, but I'm pretty sure the limbs sticking out several feet on both sides of the trunk were a clue. And he was not going fast enough to hit it hard - he literally just kind of ended up in it. I don't know how else to explain it. 

There is no place around here that looks like what you describe. Nowhere he can run for half a mile in an open area. It's all woodland with the odd field, but even those are littered with groundhog holes so I'm hesitant to let him run much in them. 

I agree his canter needs tons of work. And yes, he's only cantered outside the arena a few times. 

There is also no other horse I can use for brakes. Harley is very jiggy on trails, though not exactly dangerous, but would run if given the chance. I am usually in the lead because believe it or not, Rusty is far more reliable 95% of the time. This has only happened twice so far. Sometimes he speeds up, but I catch him and bring him back to a walk. 

I'll look into a Kimberwicke... it sounds promising! Thanks!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

mmshiro said:


> Do you think the downhill was a significant feature in what happened? How "downhill" are we talking about? If you attempt to walk down a snow-covered ravine in winter, you too will speed up.
> 
> I don't know how many other instances you had with him taking off with you, but this isolated instance is, to me, just proof that he needs more confidence negotiating a downhill with iffy footing. Clinton Anderson says he should go down "like molasses." (Do you have inside jokes with your horse? When I get to a downhill with Hamlet where he'll most likely do some sliding, I tell him to "channel his inner molasses.")


It's happened twice, both times on a downhill grade BUT I know he's capable of going downhill without accelerating because I made him do it several times after the tree incident. I checked him with the reins as we started down a hill, and he deliberately slowed down, putting each leg down carefully and shifting his weight to his back end. I think the downhill acceleration is an excuse for him to speed up.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

beau159 said:


> In this particular case, put him in a stronger bit. So that it is at least there IF YOU NEED IT for the 5% of the time. Might want to think about a short shank curb bit.
> 
> First you say "he decides" what speed you go, but then later you said he doesn't. I think you need to be honest with yourself that he IS being allowed sometimes to pick the speed, even if it is because he is choosing not to listen to you.
> 
> ...


Ok, so lots of things to clarify here. He doesn't decide what gait we go on a trail. He decides to take off on me, and I pull him back in. In other words, I correct it. Twice, I was unable to correct it immediately, and this last time I used a barrier to stop him. Granted, maybe not the best barrier, but I didn't think he'd actually hit it - I figured he'd stop. But to be clear, at NO POINT do I just let him go whatever speed he wishes. I do let him walk fast as opposed to walking slow, but as long as he walks, I'm ok with that. 

I do ride with a crop in the arena and on the trail. Because there have been times when I needed it. I don't have to use it anymore, or haven't in a while anyway, because he's learned that if he doesn't respond to my cues, I will resort to the crop. I'll keep riding with it for some time yet. 

You are absolutely right that he needs to respond to leg cues better. He's really hard to steer. Getting better, but still, if riding Harley is like driving a Ferrarri, riding Rusty is more like a 4 x 4 without power steering. Yes, I know training can improve that, but he's just a far less sensitive horse. So while I don't nag him endlessly, when I ask for something and he doesn't cooperate, I am not afraid to lose my cool and go bananas on him. 

In the end, I agree that we need to work on lots of things in the arena, and graduate to transitions and circles on the trail, but it sounds like a bit that would give me better control in a situation like this would be in everyone's best interest, including his.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Acadianartist said:


> You're right to some extent @Yogiwick, that I don't immediately get harsh with a horse - or any other animal for that matter. But I'm getting more confident with Rusty. The issue is that Kodak destroyed all my confidence, so I'm just getting it back. What I've realized with Rusty is that he'll do things like shy away from something, or launch into an unasked canter, but to my amazement, I don't fall off. My heart still beats a little faster, but it's easy to stay on Rusty no matter what he does, even at full gallop down a hill. He just keeps me in the saddle, I don't know how else to explain it, whereas Kodak wouldn't stop until I was on the ground. So I'm learning to up the ante with Rusty because it works. And it's true that I didn't try a lot of things before running into the tree. I should have tried other things. But it did happen very fast, and Harley and DD were behind us so I wanted to stop Rusty fast. My first attempt was turning him into a tight circle, but he only turned about a quarter of the way in then took a stride or two and I let him go into the trees (I mean, I was pulling back the whole time, but he went forward anyway). It literally happened in seconds. So it sounds like the best course of action is for me to work at developing a quicker response in him, and for me to hammer it in my brain as well so it becomes second nature. But really, I don't mind disciplining this horse because I know he needs firm boundaries. Just like a toddler. The difference is that if I tried to discipline Kodak, she exploded even more, but when I do it with Rusty, he does respond, eventually, and I don't come off him. This is what leads me to believe I can deal with him.
> 
> Sure, it sounds worse that he decides to ignore me in some ways, but having dealt with a mare who totally lost her mind in a blind panic anytime something was slightly out of place, I'd rather deal with a stubborn horse than a panicked one any day.


Yes and I know you completely understand when "harsh" is appropriate so I don't hesitate to tell you to be meaner lol! Definitely better to have to work on being mean then the other way around!

I completely understand about keeping you in the saddle. I rode a mare that was NUTS, completely randomly explosive under saddle, every few steps even. However, she was super sweet and she WOULD NOT let you fall. I never felt unsafe riding her despite BAD spooking every 30 seconds. Definitely a good horse right there!!! He looks like a portly little fellow too, some are easier to hang on to.

I also understand everything happening so quickly, it sounds like you did what you could at the time. That's also why (in addition to working on reflexes in both of you) I say prevention is so important. It's important training wise, but the time to respond is a split second and if things were to go bad obviously you want to prevent that too.

Do look into a Kimberwicke, they are good bits. Have a curb type of feel bit can be ridden with the sort of contact you describe and are customizable in a sense. Most horses like they but they also work well for control. Very commonly used on bratty ponies, also should work well for green Appaloosas ****!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> ...There is no place around here that looks like what you describe. Nowhere he can run for half a mile in an open area. It's all woodland with the odd field, but even those are littered with groundhog holes so I'm hesitant to let him run much in them.
> 
> I agree his canter needs tons of work. And yes, he's only cantered outside the arena a few times.
> 
> There is also no other horse I can use for brakes...


That makes things trickier. Maybe you could practice cantering in an area very close to home where he feels safe and is less excited?

I was thinking of an analogy for horses that are green. 
It would be like a driver that was doing a driving course following signals they were just learning. Like if a blue light flashes, it means turn right, if a yellow light flashes, it means turn left. If a green light flashes once it means go faster, twice, it means slow down.

The driver could practice following those signals at 10 mph and do great. But in order to remember what the signals meant at 50 mph, they'd need to also practice at a faster speed. The first few tries they might go off course or try the wrong thing. It would be much easier if they were able to follow another driver who knew the signals, and that would help them choose correctly and reinforce what each signal meant.

It's quite normal to feel like a green horse steers like a big truck and needs strong cues. Harley might have started out that way too. Many times training is a progression toward lighter cues. Even my most sensitive mare required strong plow reining at the beginning when she didn't know cues.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^Completely, it's about being SUPER direct and clear and often incorporates "incorrect" riding. Some things you have to remind yourself the horse doesn't even understand what you're asking. And oftentimes that translates to stronger cues, and if the horse is intentionally misbehaving sometimes it means doing what it takes to get them in line and reevaluating your approach.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Acadianartist said:


> But sometimes, he decides he wants to run and it's not always in a place where I can allow it.
> 
> As soon as we left our usual trail to go on this new one, he started to trot, then canter.
> So as he took off, I did the usual fruitless attempts to stop him.
> ...



Okay, good clarification but still: Regarding the most recent incident, in my mind, he should have never gotten to the canter at all. You said he started to trot FIRST and then canter. What did you do when he started to trot? Were you asking him to slow down and he just ignored you anyway? Or did you wait to do anything until he was cantering?

Or..... did you feel him *think* about start to trot? Really, *that's* where it should begin by recognizing that he's about to go faster. You don't describe that he is suddenly bolting (which is different) but that he slowly increases his speed. You should immediately be giving him that half-halt slow-down cue before he really gets going much at the trot. If at this point in a time, a "bigger bit" is going to accomplish that for you so that he can't ignore you, so be it. If you prefer a snaffle you can move back down to that later on. 



I get that you are taking a relaxing ride on the trail, but with an issue such as this, it really is important to pay attention at all times. Because no one wants to be cloth-lined off their horse by a tree!!! :gallop:




Acadianartist said:


> You are absolutely right that he needs to respond to leg cues better. He's really hard to steer. Getting better, but still, if riding Harley is like driving a Ferrarri, riding Rusty is more like a 4 x 4 without power steering. Yes, I know training can improve that, but *he's just a far less sensitive horse.* So while I don't nag him endlessly, when I ask for something and he doesn't cooperate, I am not afraid to lose my cool and go bananas on him



Shotgun is also a "less sensitive horse" (AKA lazy!!!!) but with training, you can easily make that type of horse into a sensitive horse too. Just remember to NEVER nag him. Give him one chance to be asked nicely, and if you do not get a prompt response to your request, use the crop. (if it applies for what you were asking for) Every single time. _(And of course, never "end" with the crop being your cue. Always re-ask and give him a chance again to respond to the aid properly.) _If you are totally consistent with this, you can now make him into a responsive horse that listens the first time every time. 



I get it - I'm totally guilty of being too nice to Shotgun most of the time. But when I get my bananas on a branch, he's really a nice and light responsive horse and he can be that way no problem.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I am a western trail rider who normally rides in short shanked curb bits. I recently tried a kimberwicke on my mare (just to try) and I am amazed how well she does in it. Even though it has very little leverage compared to nearly any western curb in existence, I am amazed and the finesse and control I have. It's actually my favorite bit to use on her at the moment. inkunicorn:
I second (third, fourth, fifth) going up to curb or kimberwicke bit. Using a stronger bit and having a horse that respects it is much better than using a milder bit and having a horse that doesn't respect it.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

One rein stop is meant to be practiced in an arena starting at a walk. Bring the nose to the horses shoulder and hold until he comes to a stop. Repeat as many times as necessary. Then try it at a trot. If the horse keeps going with his head turned you want to practice moving the hindquarters as well. So turn the head to the right shoulder and kick with the right leg and move those hind feet over.

Never run a horse into a tree. Someone's horse died from that- ran headfirst into the trunk. Another person I know had her horse impaled by a tree branch. The horse had a 6 inch branch in it's neck. Not a small branch either. That was a pasture accident. 

If a snaffle is not enough, try a curb bit with a curb chain.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Acadian I understand you don't want to be more harsh with Rusty than you need to but have you ever ridden with a Pelham and double reins? That way you can ride on the top rein, either a snaffle or plain and if you need more you can switch to the bottom rein. I like that because I don't have to use a curb unless I need to and the horse quickly learns it's best to do what is asked before the curb comes into action. The one thing is to let him know and learn about a Pelham and a curb in an arena before going out anywhere so he knows what to expect.

I am riding a mare right now that my niece bought. She is very forward and not too responsive to seat legs aids (altho she is improving rapidly on that) and very hard mouthed. I don't know any of her riding history and I had to ride out by myself at times and I put a Pelham on her. She was better out on the trails(so far) than I expected so maybe soon I won't need the curb rein but for me to feel safer I will continue to use it.

When we are trotting along I am aware of how she is going and if I think she will try to speed up too much I check her back with the curb and as soon as she responds I release it and back to the snaffle, she is catching on and is relaxing more with me. I guess we are both learning to trust one another. I just want to be sure she doesn't learn any bad habits and I want to be able to shut down anything right away.









She is a very nice horse just came with some bad habits, leading, rushing through the barn etc and we have dealt with all that successfully and I think it won't be long before I can ride her on a snaffle only. with a new horse I am always a little more strict about manners and behaviour then usual, I want them to know who is the leader here and after we have that settled I will relax a bit but by then they know what is expected of them and I think they are actually happier to have these rules and no guessing games about what is expected of them.

A kimberwick is also a good go to bit for more control, and I think having control with Rusty is important right now to prevent a bad habit from starting. Rusty is a very nice horse and I would like to hear that you are having some lovely rides together in the future.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Whatever bit you decide to use, I think you did a creative, and successful thing ; to turn him into a tree to stop him. Of course, if he's really going fast, it could end up bad for both of you. But running pelmell through the trees is also bad for both of you.


The trick will be getting him connected and paying attention to you before you enter places where you know he's going to try and take over, and shutting that down the minute you feel himn even THINKNG about it.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

@tinyliny! I want to hug you and kiss you and fart on you! 

Oh sorry guys... back on track.

I'm very interested to see how this progresses and how his re-training go's.


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## Chrisssy (Jun 4, 2019)

I have a thoroughbred who I noticed can get a little crazy either in the round pen or if I don't walk him round a little before a canter. So I looked it up - found that hot blooded breeds are used as race horses because they have a quick adrenalin burst. If a horse is not eased into a trail ride or whatever they are doing - the adrenalin can take over and they run randomly...for example, into trees. Hope this helps?


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## Chrisssy (Jun 4, 2019)

Moral of the story = it is up to the rider to ease the horse into being warmed up (don't go too fast/hard too soon). Thus the adrenalin burst can be controlled. If not, it doesn't matter what bit you use - the adrenalin burst will be the dominant power controlling the horse. The horse isn't even controlling hirself because the rider is doing that job. So before attaching artificial dominance tools - understand your horse's nature and how to manage it.


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## Chrisssy (Jun 4, 2019)

This is simply the flight response that is a horse's nature. And why we can round them up & ride them in the first place!


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Chrisssy said:


> I have a thoroughbred who I noticed can get a little crazy either in the round pen or if I don't walk him round a little before a canter. So I looked it up - found that hot blooded breeds are used as race horses because they have a quick adrenalin burst. If a horse is not eased into a trail ride or whatever they are doing - the adrenalin can take over and they run randomly...for example, into trees. Hope this helps?


I really don't think this is an adrenaline burst. I don't think Rusty even has adrenaline, lol. 

It's really hard to explain, but you know when you let a horse out to pasture in the morning? The type who takes about three to five canter strides, then puts his head down to eat. That's what happens with Rusty. The first time he decided to gallop and yes, we were going down a hill, yes, he started to trot, yes, I tried to shut him down and he didn't listen and then cantered sideways, and I was having no success in slowing him down so I let him go, he galloped about three or four strides, and then came back down to a walk and was fine. This time, he got excited about going on a new trail. We were about a quarter of the way into the ride. He walked the whole time at a good clip, but still, not excited or jiggy. The new trail is on a slight downhill grade, he began to trot, I tried to pull him in, he ignored me so I tried to turn him into a circle, he responded by doing a canter stride with his nose sideways, I opted to let him straighten out his head and go towards the trees. He ended up with his face in the bark of an old fir, but at that point, he was not going fast. Maybe he was at a really slow trot at that point. The trail is maybe 10 feet wide, lined with trees on both sides. He couldn't get up to any speed doing circles that small even if he wanted to. 

He does really love trails and gets excited. In the arena, I need a crop (though I don't actually have to use it anymore because he's learned that when I ask for the trot or canter, he needs to give it to me or else the crop will come out). Some days it's a lot of work just to keep him walking! On the other hand, the moment I let him out of the arena to go on a trail, his head perks up, his walk speeds up, he is happy. So whatever training tools I use, they should be used on the trail. Yes, I need to continue to work on his training in the ring, but he won't act up there. 

Will look at a kimberwicke.


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## keelan (Jan 5, 2010)

You might try a Dr. Bristol bit. Adds a break. Have you trained with treats? If you use a que word like "sugar" and follow with a treat he will learn that 1) you say "sugar" 2) he stops and gets the treat. That would break the cycle. Saw it work with a really spooky horse. Instead of bolting he would stop and look for his sugar cube.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Maybe for ring work and yes it is important to have your horse schooling and listening to you in the arena and this will still be in effect out on the trails.
Be sure in the arena you are "calling the shots" and he is not going around, ho hum, don't need to do a good walk. Take charge of what you are doing and keep it varied enough that he has to pay attention to you and your requests (or commands)

work on a lot of transitions and be sure he is listening and responding smartly, that gets him listening to you and giving the correct response. If you ask him to "walk up" be sure he does, never mind if he thinks it's boring, he needs to do it, then when he does the right thing for a bit, change to something else.

One exercise I do is walk 6 steps, trot 6 steps, halt, trot 6 steps, walk 6 steps. This can be mixed up in any order even a few back up steps, but the horse has to respond smartly. I also do this out on trails to keep them handy. You would be surprised how many horses and riders can't do this accurately. I was at a show once and this was asked in one of the classes and my horse was the only one that could do it right. Other horses did it but not with exactly 6 steps or from a standstill to a trot.

As for going out on the trail once he knows you can shut him down if you need to the problem with disappear.


I had a new horse years ago that was great in the arena but when I took him out on the trail, we would be trotting along then suddenly a great leap in the air, 180 degree turn mid air and warp speed for home. He was not a nasty horse but had probably just found that this had worked for him in the past so why not with this new person. I couldn't stop him (part draft and huge) with a snaffle so I dragged out the Pelham and the next time he tried it I shut him down within a couple of strides, I carried a crop in my boot and out would come the crop and I burned his backside back up the trail. Only had to do it twice and that was the end of it. He was basically a nice,good natured horse and after that was a lovely horse to go out riding with, very dependable and trustworthy.
Happy riding


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

keelan said:


> You might try a Dr. Bristol bit. Adds a break. _*I personally haven't had luck with anything "snaffle" but that's just me. I honestly don't see any reason not to use a mild curb. It even encourages them to break at the poll vs. star gaze. *_Have you trained with treats? If you use a que word like "sugar" and follow with a treat he will learn that 1) you say "sugar" 2) he stops and gets the treat. That would break the cycle. Saw it work with a really spooky horse. Instead of bolting he would stop and look for his sugar cube.



Use the word "whoa" instead of "sugar" and people will think it's good training vs. thinking you are spoiling the horse. Plus, it will respond for any future owners with the word "whoa." :Angel:


I actually use treats a lot. Mostly for standing still to mount. And as a reward for sidepassing and working gates. But yes, I bet they would also learn "whoa" quick.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@Woodhaven 



does this:


*carried a crop in my boot and out would come the crop and I burned his backside back up the trail. Only had to do it twice and that was the end of it.*

mean that you instantly turned him back to the original direction and spanked him repeatedly as he went forward, in that direction?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Acadianartist said:


> I really don't think this is an adrenaline burst. I don't think Rusty even has adrenaline, lol.
> 
> It's really hard to explain, but you know when you let a horse out to pasture in the morning? The type who takes about three to five canter strides, then puts his head down to eat. That's what happens with Rusty. The first time he decided to gallop and yes, *we were going down a hill*, yes, he started to trot, yes, *I tried to shut him down and he didn't listen *and then cantered sideways, and I was having no success in slowing him down so I let him go,* he galloped about three or four strides, and then came back down to a walk and was fine.* This time, he got excited about going on a new trail. We were about a quarter of the way into the ride. He walked the whole time at a good clip, but still, not excited or jiggy. *The new trail is on a slight downhill grade,* he began to trot, I tried to pull him in, he ignored me so I tried to turn him into a circle, he responded by doing a canter stride with his nose sideways, I opted to let him straighten out his head and go towards the trees. He ended up with his face in the bark of an old fir, but at that point, he was not going fast. Maybe he was at a really slow trot at that point. *The trail is maybe 10 feet wide,* lined with trees on both sides. He couldn't get up to any speed doing circles that small even if he wanted to.
> 
> ...







I think much of what you describe about Rusty is what people say about a lot of Appalousa horses. IT is one reason why they have a reputation of being 'pigheaded'. But, out on the trail, their go walk out and get there attitude is so fine! A lot of appalousa horses don't see any purpose in arena work and will start to become very resistant to it, but do love being out and moving over ground. You should have seen those Appy's on the Chief Joseph ride; all day powering up and down hills, and always with ears up and ready to walk on!


Two things strike me, though, about the bolded portions of your post. That is that both incidents occured where the trail was a bit downhill. That may indicate that your hrose lacks familiarity with how to handle himself and stay balanced, with a rider up, going down hill. It might be worth some work on those hills, specifically. Doing things like asking him to stop part way down, and actually BACK up the hill a bit, then praising him to the skies when he does and giving him a totally loose rein for a bit.


You guys have to be able to trust each other. He has to trust you to let him put his head where he needs it to be, going downhill, and to move a bit faster if necessary to keep his balance. And you have to trust that he won't just fall from there into a total rush out of control.


I would suggest doing some hill work if you can. Don't have anyone in front of you, unless they are willing to stop and go slow when you do, so that Rusty isn't worried about catching up if you stop him midway. That comes later. Get him to slow half way down the hill, back him up. Do the same at the bottom of the hill, turn him around and go back up the hill, and down, and up, until he is just 'ho hum' about it.


The 10 feet wide is plenty wide to do a complete hindend disengagement, as long as you are going no faster than a slow trot. So, the minute he starts to trot unasked, you can get him to circle into a disengagenemt. If he is cantering sidways through this, then you are allowing him too much time to take over before shutting him down, AND, you are pulling too much sideways, and not enough upward to get him to follow that rein around and not leak outward through his shoulder.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> @Woodhaven
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I stopped him from bolting home, we turned, he thought he would stop and he got a couple of good swats with the crop and we went right back up the trail. He did not stop or hesitate so I had no need to do anything more. I did have my legs on him strongly and used my voice to make sure he kept going.


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## mjfish03 (Aug 8, 2019)

Woodhaven said:


> Acadian I understand you don't want to be more harsh with Rusty than you need to but have you ever ridden with a Pelham and double reins? That way you can ride on the top rein, either a snaffle or plain and if you need more you can switch to the bottom rein. I like that because I don't have to use a curb unless I need to and the horse quickly learns it's best to do what is asked before the curb comes into action. The one thing is to let him know and learn about a Pelham and a curb in an arena before going out anywhere so he knows what to expect.


I totally agree with this! I had an ex-racehorse that could flat-out RUN, as you might expect!! Quite the fun experience...except when you're on the trail, loose your stirrups, and have no idea how you're going to stop him!  Good thing that a flat out gallop is a smooth ride! 

Anyway, I switched to using the straight bar Pelham and double reigns when on trails, and wow, what a difference. He totally respected that bit! It's nice to have the option in your hands to first try the easy "ask" with the top reign, and then you have the backup "you WILL DO" curb reign. My curb was a full chain, not a strap or any part of it a strap, and I would recommend that for the extra oomph you'll get. The bit had a good solid, heavy weight to it too, so that in and of itself was a different feel for him and garnered a bit more respect. 

You'll need to have soft hands and a good understanding of what contact means when using this bit as to not overdo it when not on the trails. If I rode with it in the arena, the curb reign was almost always a loop (hung relatively loosely) so that I wasn't in jeopardy of accidentally "grabbing" his face when I didn't mean it. I also used it when doing some cross-country jumping as he used to get revved up going over the jumps in a wide open field. Otherwise, I rode him in a regular snaffle, which was probably about 95%+ of the time anyway...

Keep in mind that the very few times you will need to be truly, downright harsh will not negate all of the soft-but-firm training you do otherwise. Safety is paramount.

If he is a little dead-sided, perhaps using the small nub, rounded spurs would help? That is only if you are confident in your ability to not bump him with them otherwise. But they could give a bit extra incentive to move off of your leg while training, and I wouldn't use them every day for training either so it stays unpredictable for him. You could also try a dressage whip...they are long and are meant to be able to tap the horse behind your leg, and all the way to his butt, without having to move your hands from the correct position. With crops, you have to move your hands to get to their middle and end body areas , and that might be more of a hindrance for you when training.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

A pelham is a good bit and my choice but for the OP who I am assuming is not used to double reins a Kimberwick (which she is checking out) would be a better first choice. It is much the same concept but is simpler to use and I think would work well for her. If he still needs more then yes, maybe a Pelham but this is a good start keeping in need the riders needs as well (and I don't think this horse needs a TON of bit, just more)


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## keelan (Jan 5, 2010)

Sorry, spell check put break and not BRAKE. Dr. Bristol is not a snaffle.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

keelan said:


> Dr. Bristol is not a snaffle.


Why wouldn't it be considered a snaffle?


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I was reading through some of your posts here and I see that Rusty speeds up on a downhill grade. Maybe he has been allowed to do this previously and if that's the case you may need to do some hill training with him so he learns to walk down (this also applies to up) at a nice walk. Maybe he just needs to know this.

I would have a good ride in the arena and then head out to a spot that has a slight hill, hopefully close the home and get him to walk up and down this hill until he understands that he doesn't need to rush. Once he can handle a small hill gradually increase the size of the hill.

this could just be a bad habit that he has been allowed to do and thinks it's ok.

Happy riding.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

SteadyOn said:


> Why wouldn't it be considered a snaffle?


Sure looks like a snaffle to me. 

Any bit which is a simple direct pull from the corner of the horse's mouth is a snaffle of some kind. Snaffle refers to the type of pull not the mouthpiece.

I have read that Dr.Bristols are a comparatively harsh bit despite looking like a french link which is a pretty mild one.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Is he a horse which can be tired out in the arena? I know this isn’t possible with all horses (or dogs) but I would try giving him a good workout in the arena first. Yes, he should be trained out of it but how do you safely train him out of it? I have ridden horses which were immaculate in the arena but totally bonkers out on trails - and others the complete opposite. My mare was amazing on trails but a total nut in the arena. She would canter around like crazy and ignore my aids completely. I am not incredibly experienced and I don’t really trust any of the trainers around so what I did when I first got her is tire her out nicely out on trails and only then go into the arena. It worked almost immediately. I didn’t feel comfortable putting a strong bit on her because I wasn’t too confident in how steady my hands were at the time but I would do that as well nowadays.

Caveat: this doesn’t work with Arabs and similar crazies - tried it with a different horse - he just didn’t get tired. I am not even sure what worked for the crazy Arab I rode, he just started listening to me after a few rides, no idea why.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Thanks @Horsef, but no, he's not the type to get tired out in the arena. I mean, he acts sluggish and lazy in the arena, but gets very excited to be on trails, so it doesn't make a difference in terms of his energy level if I ride him a lot in the arena. It does, however, make a difference in how well he listens to me, so for that reason, I do try to do a little in the arena first, to remind him of his manners. 

Some days, like today, however, I don't. Mainly because my daughter wants to go right on the trail so I do a couple of quick circles, then head out. However, I did practice some of the things everyone suggested, and we had a good ride. We did lots of transitions, and rather than just let him pick his path, I weaved around on the trail, making him bend in both directions, just keeping him focused the whole time. Twice, he decided he wanted to head down a different trail (always AWAY from home - this horse is the opposite of most, he wants to go exploring). But twice, I circled him and brought him back. He did take a few canter strides sideways again, but quickly shut down. We just need to work on it some more. 

I haven't yet tried him in a different bit mainly because I've been so busy lately between my daughter's horse shows and work. But I do plan on trying on some different bits.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Avna said:


> Sure looks like a snaffle to me.
> 
> Any bit which is a simple direct pull from the corner of the horse's mouth is a snaffle of some kind. Snaffle refers to the type of pull not the mouthpiece.
> * I have read that Dr.Bristols are a comparatively harsh bit despite looking like a french link which is a pretty mild one.*


_Good description Avna..._

What I have in my bit collection labeled as a Dr. Bristol looks very similar to a French-Link...
The center piece...on a *Bristol* bit it is square with real square-edge and then angles that when riding and you apply rein pressure engages to dig into the tongue..















The French-Link bit is more hour-glass shape and has rounded edges so the "bite" is removed and gentled more.

As with any bit though, it is the hands and finesse used in communication via the reins that makes any bit friendly or not.
That is what I learned about many bits..._the hands speaking to the horse dictate the strength of message given._
:runninghorse2:....


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Interesting @horselovinguy! I learned something about bits! So it appears what I thought was a D ring snaffle has the Bristol middle part (square edges) but without the full cheek piece. I do have a full cheek bit with a roller in the middle. I may try him with that just because I have it in the barn. We found Harley responded better with a full cheek so maybe it will help with Rusty too. And he's very mouthy so the roller may encourage him to reach for the bit more. I've read that full cheek snaffles also help horses that don't bend or steer well and that's also something he has issues with. I can get him to bend, but it's not pretty. I know, we have to work on asking softly, then progressively more harshly. I just have to find time to work with him a little more. He is progressing though, and he learns really fast. I'm thinking he needs a fairly serious correction when he tries to take over. I'm not sure it's enough to redirect him, because he's quite stubborn and will keep trying to get away with stuff. I think lots of small circles might work as a sort of "punishment". Or should we just walk past the areas where he wants to take off over and over again until he's bored? Again, this horse does not want to return home. He's the opposite of most horses. Turning him towards home is a punishment - he wants to stay on the trail and explore new trails. But I don't want to just take him home every time he acts up either. 

Thoughts on how to "discipline" a horse like this? Ideally, less experienced riders could take him on a trail eventually (not now - he's nowhere near ready for that). 

On a completely unrelated note, my daughter jumped Kodak a couple of days ago! She's a good little jumper with a decent hunter form, but does some weird little bucks after the jump. She does the same when we try to canter her. Walk/trot she is fine, other than being a little skittish as usual. I'm having a new body worker have a look at her next week. She's already been treated by two massage therapists and a chiro, as well as numerous vets who could never find anything wrong, but this person is new and comes highly recommended so I figure what the heck... worth a try. Even though I highly doubt anything will change.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've skimmed the majority of posts so if I've missed something, I apologize. Want to go ride after posting this.

Curb bits are not harsher bits than snaffles. Arguably, a western curb bit is gentler than a snaffle. Western because to be gentler than a snaffle, it needs to be ridden primarily with some slack in the reins.

However, it has some real advantages on an excited horse trying to run - which I had many times with Mia, and Bandit for the first 1-2 years. A snaffle works on a straight line pull back. If the horse is excited and sticks his nose out (so he can see better as he goes faster), then a straight line pull on a snaffle pulls the bit against the molars, where it doesn't bother the horse. 

A curb bit works by rotating in the mouth. Ridden western, you adjust the curb strap to allow 45-60 degrees of rotation before the curb strap tightens. This period of free rotation - no pressure - becomes the "signal". A no pressure way of saying slow. Once the curb strap tightens, though, the rotating bit means pressure is applied against the tongue and the bars. Not the molars. And if it is "bumped" instead of "pulled", the horse receives a string of strong cues saying slow down - and there is nothing to brace against. 

A horse who is excited has a lot of "background noise" in his head. That background noise - his excitement - means listening to you is like trying to listen in a crowded bar. Unless you speak louder than the background noise, he really cannot hear you. Effectively.

With a snaffle, any snaffle, an excited horse with his nose poking out is getting less volume at the very time you need to speak louder. With a curb, the place the pressure is applied to is the same as normal and you have leverage (2-3 times mechanical advantage). You are speaking louder while still applying the pressure where the horse is used to feeling it - and robbing him of the chance to "get the bit in his teeth"!

It also means you can have a smooth bar for a mouthpiece, which is a heck of a lot gentler than a lot of snaffles.

You then can allow the horse to speed up, but can also say, "Time to stop!" And a horse who gets excited about going fast NEEDS to go fast. With Mia, I would try to hold her back using constant pressure on the snaffle bit. By doing so, I trained her to ignore the snaffle. I needed a curb bit to teach her "Whoa", and then needed to give her chances to go fast, along with knowing "Whoa" needed to be obeyed, until SHE learned to control her emotions. 

Bandit had been used almost exclusively for racing. He was trained to run fast. He was punished if he did not. So I transitioned him to a curb. It took him one ride in the arena to transition, versus three for Mia. We then did a few bucking canter stops in the open.

Remember, this is a western approach. The "bump, bump, bump" was important. Not a steady pull. But I could speak in a very loud voice if needed. The bit always applied pressure to the part of his mouth that meant whoa. And if he stopped, we might try trotting or cantering a little later on. On the trail.

FWIW, I had zero success at teaching either of them to control their emotions in an arena. In an arena, they had to keep turning. Not even 1/10th as exciting as a trail going to the horizon. So they would slow or stop flawlessly in an arena, and that had nothing to do with how they behaved on a trail.

FWIW, I ended up riding Bandit for a year in Dr Cook's bitless, then went back to bits to give a more precise cue. His current bit is this one:








That is a very gentle bit design. Far gentler at telling a horse to stop than a double-joint snaffle:








Don't let leverage fool you. That isn't what makes a curb bit effective. A solid bar rotating down against the tongue is far gentler than a snaffle abusing the tongue.

With both Mia & Bandit, once they got used to the idea that they could slow on a trail when given a cue, but that I'd also let them go fast sometimes, they then had no problem transitioning back to a snaffle. Bandit to bitless, although we're now using a curb because it is at least as gentle, if not gentler, than bitless. More precise, too.

Gotta go get a ride in before the temps break 90! Supposed to hit 103 today. Good luck regardless of what you decide!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Acadianartist said:


> ...I know, we have to work on asking softly, then progressively more harshly...


Honestly, with a green horse I've found it works well to do almost the opposite. For example, if you want to turn. On an experienced horse, you give a feather light touch and then if they don't respond, make it a bit stronger. With a green horse, I take a solid feel because the horse has not learned to be light yet. I'm not saying "harsh," but 3x as strong as what I use on a trained horse. That way you are very clear to the horse about what you want, and your signal and release are very obvious. Like in kindergarten, kids write in big block letters and progress to smaller writing later. 

When the horse has a very good response every time to a certain signal such as turning, then you begin to use less pressure and get lighter. Since the horse knows the cue, they'll be waiting for it and will understand what you mean.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Another great ride on Rusty out on the trails last night with DD and Harley (DD insisted on riding this one bareback too, which I stressed about more than her, but it was fine, she has a much better seat than I do!). We went a little further and did a bunch of little loops around so we don't always do the same thing. He did try to take off on me again, but I was able to stop him quickly. I turned him right around and made him go back on his footsteps, which he hates, then we rode the same section of trail again, and he didn't take off on me this time. I worked on transitions again, halts, circles, etc. And I even asked for a trot a couple of times when I knew he wouldn't speed up (on slight uphill grades). He was a little surprised because I always hold him back on trails, but it was great! It gave me confidence, and it showed him that I won't always make him walk, but I have to be in control. I'm hoping to explore more trails soon... 

Thanks again for all your comments, they are truly helpful and give me confidence that I can handle him. I think Kodak just really shook my confidence. Rusty's really not that bad - my daughter laughs at me when I get nervous because he's so chill. In fact, they are re-paving the road in front of my house and we walked right past a bunch of big beeping machinery but the horses didn't flinch at all. 

And I understand what you mean @*gottatrot* - I am making the cues very obvious for Rusty. That totally makes sense.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Great job! you are really growing into yourself as a horsewoman.


I am not the world's bravest rider, but I'm up for some challenges, when I'm pretty sure they won't go balastic. It helps me to feel ok when something I didn't order up comes my way, that is mildly 'balastic', and I get through it . . surprise, surprise! JUST FINE!


I often find that I am a better rider than I give myself credit for, and I bet you are too.


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