# My mare mounts other mares



## mliponoga (Jul 24, 2010)

I also read on another forum that animals can be homosexual, well I'm sorry, but I call b.s.! I believe this is only a dominance behavior just like in other animals (dogs, cattle, etc.)


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## 888vegas888 (Jun 23, 2010)

mliponoga said:


> I also read on another forum that animals can be homosexual, well I'm sorry, but I call b.s.! I believe this is only a dominance behavior just like in other animals (dogs, cattle, etc.)


haha i actually think horses can be gay.  
at my old barn, we had a buckskin stud that mounted and bred (not successfully of course) one of our school geldings in the butthole.
NOT the everyday picture! 
i've seen those behaviors in a mare many times before, but i can't say i've seen a mare mount another mare...


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Homosexuality in animals is *usually* a dominance thing. However, there have been numerous documented cases in a number of species (I think penguins are most prolific now) of actual "homosexual" partnerships or animals that will refuse to mate with the opposite sex. There are a number of male penguin partners now that will raise an egg together if given one, as a mating pair. They've also documented that they will seek another male mate if theirs dies.

Quite frankly, I think it provides excellent scientific evidence that homosexuality is not a choice. Animals are removed from the emotional side of it, and yet still end up with "crossed" genetics that make them seek same sex partnership. 

In your mare's case, definitely a dominance thing. I've never seen Shay-las mare Flika mount, but she is definitely the "stud" in the group - her behaviors towards new horses are IDENTICAL to a stallion going through a mating ritual, complete with arched neck, grunting, blowing, teasing, etc.

ROFL, the other day at the ranch we had people complaining because one gelding kept mounting another gelding and trying to "breed" him with his sloppy salute. :lol:


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

888vegas888 said:


> we had a buckskin stud that mounted and bred (not successfully of course) one of our school geldings in the butthole.


I have no idea why, but I found that to be incredibly funny and about spit water on my screen LOL


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I wonder if it isn't caused by the raising in testosterone due to her being pregnant. Pregnant womens 'raging' hormones are usually attributed to extra testosterone. And testosterone in male horses causes studdy behavior. 

As far as the homosexual thing, I have never met a homosexual horse...but I bet they are out there.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I knew a pony mare that was in LOVE with an appy mare, and ONLY that appy mare. I'm pretty sure they can be homosexual.

Your mare could just have too much testosterone, but you won't know for sure until she is no longer pregnant with all those lovely extra hormones. =]


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## TheRoughrider21 (Aug 25, 2009)

Living on a dairy farm I learned that cows will mount other cows when they come into heat...not sure if its the same with horses.

But homosexuality in horses...yeah...it happens. At the barn I board at, they'res two geldings who honestly spoon together. Wish I woulda got a picture...I couldn't believe it and then a non-horsey guy who was there came running to me..."those horses are guys and they're spooning! make them stop! Wait lemme get my video camera first." It was an ackward situation and I had no idea horses spooned but thats exactly what it looked lik. =P


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

If she has never done it before, its probably a hormonal dominance thing.

I haven't heard of the animal homosexuality thing before, but MacabreMikolaj, you bring up an interesting point with the penguins. 

Watching a horse mount another horse of the same sex for the first time sounds like it would be a bit disturbing. And I don't know how to respond to the whole stallion trying to impregnate a gelding. I kind of want to laugh and puke at the same time.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I don't believe that horses mount for dominance. If they did it would be much more common behavior even with geldings. People forget that animals don't know about "gay" or "straight." All they know is that they're horny or in need of affection and that boy/girl over there is the only outlet available. Some humans turn to their own gender when there's no other option too (i.e. men in prison). It really shouldn't be surprising.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

888vegas888 said:


> haha i actually think horses can be gay.
> at my old barn, we had a buckskin stud that mounted and bred (not successfully of course) one of our school geldings in the butthole.
> NOT the everyday picture!
> i've seen those behaviors in a mare many times before, but i can't say i've seen a mare mount another mare...


"Is that horse lame? He's walking kinda funny"
"Nah, he's just a little butthurt is all"


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Please get a vet out to examine your mare. 

The only mare that I have every seen mount another mare had an ovarian tumor that was producing testosterone; in many ways she acted like a stallion. 

The fact that your mare is acting like this while in foal is a *big* concern, and a vet exam is in order. 

Homosexuality does exist in the animal kingdom, but since this is brand new behavior, rather than continuing behavior, in this animal the explanation is probably medical.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> I don't believe that horses mount for dominance. If they did it would be much more common behavior even with geldings. People forget that animals don't know about "gay" or "straight." All they know is that they're horny or in need of affection and that boy/girl over there is the only outlet available. Some humans turn to their own gender when there's no other option too (i.e. men in prison). It really shouldn't be surprising.


With geldings, I would be very confused what else it would indicate then aside from dominance as they shouldn't HAVE any "horny" tendencies. It's also SUPER commonplace in young foals playing, and they obviously don't have any sort of functioning sexual mechanism at a month old.

Most species are well known and documented to use mounting or other apparent sexual behavior as a display of dominance.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Maura, it's actually fairly common. My mare decided it would be a good idea to mount the boarder's mare... wouldn't be such a big problem if their kid wasn't there to see it. But we went on a research rampage and asked all around and, apparently, it happens a lot.

On a side note, a pair of male penguins will actually STEAL an egg in order to raise it as their own.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

I am still thinking about homosexual penguins from earlier in the post. Somehow that seems about right...

As a Missouri farm kid, I can say that, like prisoners, cattle will take on homosexual behavior if that's all they can get. If other opportunities are there, they will take them.

And, I mean, a dog will hump your leg, right? One has to understand that animals don't place the psychological/emotional/social importance on IT that we do. They will do what they can do.

I always remember an after-church function (and I grew up in a TERRRIBLY conservative church) in which the paster's dog just RAVAGED a couch pillow right in from of everyone.

Just curious: does anyone know if upper primates will respond to "monkey porn"? Has anyone ever done this experiment??? (Not you personally, necessarily. ; )


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Actually, in regard to the gelding behavior. All I have to compare it to is guinea pigs (we used to have a lot of them). Fixing the males did little to them except to affect their potency (and they are castrated)--they remained quite sexual toward the females, and it didn't seem just dominance.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

There are definitely two schools when it comes to animals, much like humans I think. Prisoners and many "bi-sexual" people can fall into the category of just craving sex or affection and not caring where it comes from. This is the dog that humps your leg or the deer trying to actually breed another male deer (or cows as you said).

The other applies to blatant homosexuals and animals like penguins who actually choose a specific gender regardless of individual or sex being involved. I firmly believe there is a chemical/genetic incidence occurring here that for whatever reason is messing with the levels of testosterone and estrogen effectively making the animal/human one gender on the outside and different on the inside.

Not sure about the monkey porn question, but it wouldn't surprise me, we research absolutely everything nowadays.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

Ok, I HAD to look it up. Primates will not only watch porn; they will PAY for it! Male monkeys will pay for photos and films of "chimps gone wild" with their food supply. Would we have expected anything else???


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

DSJ46 said:


> Actually, in regard to the gelding behavior. All I have to compare it to is guinea pigs (we used to have a lot of them). Fixing the males did little to them except to affect their potency (and they are castrated)--they remained quite sexual toward the females, and it didn't seem just dominance.


Guinea pigs shouldn't technically be different then any other animal. Think of dogs, cats, horses, for example and castrating effectively takes away virtually any sexual urge. It's extremely rare I see ANY castrated animal making sexual advances.

So it may not be dominance, but I think it has even less to do with sexual urges.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Well no considering /this is getting inappropriate!/ upper primates (and dolphins) are the only other animals that will have sex for pleasur/masturbate
and jeeze louise, my young mind should not know these things


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

We were really surprised by the guinea pigs too...but there was still something going on.


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> With geldings, I would be very confused what else it would indicate then aside from dominance as they shouldn't HAVE any "horny" tendencies. It's also SUPER commonplace in young foals playing, and they obviously don't have any sort of functioning sexual mechanism at a month old.
> 
> Most species are well known and documented to use mounting or other apparent sexual behavior as a display of dominance.


Would late castrations make a gelding have enough testosterone to exhibit studdy behavior?
I was just wondering because I know some people who castrate their horses later in their lives because they aren't sure if the horse will be stud quality or not.


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## mliponoga (Jul 24, 2010)

Hmmm...this will be closed in no time at all, hahahahah!


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

A knack for horses said:


> Would late castrations make a gelding have enough testosterone to exhibit studdy behavior?
> I was just wondering because I know some people who castrate their horses later in their lives because they aren't sure if the horse will be stud quality or not.


My gelding Loki was castrated at 6 months old. He acts like a stud, thinks he's a stud, and is completely and utterly jealous of other male horses. He's also tried to get it on with a mare in heat. He tried rather hard despite his, as MacabreMikolaj put it, 'sloppy salute'. 

My female dog (not spayed as of now) will also mount my (neutered) male. Duke just stands there looking like an idiot while Hazel gets her funk on. It's really just a dominance thing though. Duke will mount when Hazel's in heat or if he gets overly excited during play.


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## mliponoga (Jul 24, 2010)

twogeldings said:


> My gelding Loki was castrated at 6 months old. He acts like a stud, thinks he's a stud, and is completely and utterly jealous of other male horses. He's also tried to get it on with a mare in heat. He tried rather hard despite his, as MacabreMikolaj put it, 'sloppy salute'.
> 
> My female dog (not spayed as of now) will also mount my (neutered) male. Duke just stands there looking like an idiot while Hazel gets her funk on. It's really just a dominance thing though. Duke will mount when Hazel's in heat or if he gets overly excited during play.


My female dog also mounts my male dog. Both of them are fixed as well...


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

> are the only other animals that will have sex for pleasur/masturbate


Not true. Apparently you missed the whole stallion masturbation thread.

I'd still have the mare looked at. A mare in foal should be producing lots of estrogens; a mare in foal mounting other mares may have another explanation but I'd sure want to rule out the medical one.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

...
That's why I said other.  
And I meant to say apparently, it's obviously not a fact, I don't know everything, haha.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

It's funny because it's considered somewhat factual that humans/primates and dolphins are the only animals that engage in SEX for pleasure, and yet virtually every animal known to man has been documented to masturbate or pleasure themselves. You'd think they'd figure it out? :lol:

Anyway, back ON topic, I would listen to maura. It's unusual enough behavior that you REALLY don't know for sure and it can't hurt to get her checked.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

My gelding is gayer than me...:shock:
Looks like you've found a lesbian mare!


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## Snapple122 (Aug 8, 2008)

Amarea said:


> I have no idea why, but I found that to be incredibly funny and about spit water on my screen LOL


Sadly, I did too. I almost spit out my apple juice. Haha.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Sorry, AC, I misunderstood your post.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I firmly believe there is a chemical/genetic incidence occurring here that for whatever reason is messing with the levels of testosterone and estrogen effectively making the animal/human one gender on the outside and different on the inside.


Levels of testosterone and estrogen have nothing to do with sexual orientation in people: I don't see why it would be different for animals.

Most people don't realize that the endocrine system is still not well understood. Scientists are still basically guessing when it comes to explaining the correlation between sex hormones and behavior. 



alexischristina said:


> Well no considering /this is getting inappropriate!/ upper primates (and dolphins) are the only other animals that will have sex for pleasur/masturbate


No, all animals have sex for pleasure. They don't know that it leads to having babies.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> No, all animals have sex for pleasure. They don't know that it leads to having babies.


They don't know it leads to babies, but it's not actually pleasurable for all animals. Cats, for instance. The mating process for cats is very painful. They mate because that's what their instincts guide them to do, not because they like it. The male has to hold down the female to avoid being attacked, which the female would hardly feel the need to do if it were enjoyable. Furthermore, not all animals have sex. Birds, for instance.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

ponyboy, 

We had a sweet, beginner safe, broke to death gelding that we used as a teaser. How did we use him as a teaser? We gave him a shot of testosterone and waited 48 hours. After 48 hours he would walk out of his stall on his hind legs bugleing and would work a mare over and court her exactly like a stallion. 

I also had a sweet, well behaved beginner pony mare who turned into a stallion (because chemically, she *was* a stallion) bugleing, striking, courting and mounting mares because of a testosterone secreting ovarian tumor. 

So while the entire endocrine system may not be understood, the effects of certain hormones are pretty well documented. 



> Scientists are still basically guessing when it comes to explaining the correlation between sex hormones and behavior.


I would be interested to know if you have a citation for this. While true for humans, I believe the correlation in animals is fairly well understood.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

My concern with this thread, and the reason I keep posting is this:

A lot of folks have posted opinions, anthropormorphic ideas about horse's behavior and interior psychology, some moderately funny ideas about homosexuality in animals and some pointless speculation. 

I do not pretend to have done extensive research into homosexuality in animals. What I do have is extensive experience with horses, period, including a long period of time working with breeding stock. Yes, I've seen geldings mount mares. Yes, I've seen geldings mount other geldings. I've seen a lot of hormonally produced bizarre behavior, too long to describe in this thread. 

BUT, THE ONE AND ONLY TIME I saw a mare exhibit stallion-like sexual behavior, she had an ovarian tumor that eventually killed her. 

So, can we please hold off on the rest of distracting speculation and opinion until the OP gets this mare checked by a vet? If the mare does not have an endocrine problem; please feel free to resume the entertaining conversation. 

But on the very real chance this mare does have an endocrine problem, can we please hold off on tangents and sidebars that might distract the OP from a very real medical problem?


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

I knew a mare who was very stallion-like, all the time. Her body produced excess testosterone, but was otherwise very healthy. That being said, I think she was euthanized because she became too dangerous, which, in my opinion, has more to do wth a lack of training than a medical problem.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

riccil0ve said:


> They don't know it leads to babies, but it's not actually pleasurable for all animals.


That's true, for some female animals. Obviously mating has to be pleasurable for at least one half of the partnership or it wouldn't get done.



maura said:


> So while the entire endocrine system may not be understood, the effects of certain hormones are pretty well documented.


In animals, as you said. My point was that animals don't have a "sexual orientation." Testosterone might make a mare mount other mares, but it does not make her homosexual. That's a human concept.



maura said:


> I would be interested to know if you have a citation for this. While true for humans, I believe the correlation in animals is fairly well understood.


I was talking about humans there. MacabreMikolaj said "animal/human." I just get tired of hearing the misconception that hormone levels have anything to do with sexual orientation. 

and yes I agree, the OP needs to consult a vet.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

:-|

Do you just argue for the sake of arguing? They don't KNOW what causes homosexuality, but sex hormone levels HAS been linked in MANY cases. I'm not talking out of my *** here, I'm speaking from scientific studies. It makes the most sense, and while it may not be documented in all cases, it seems a likely x factor in many of them, in particular transgendered people. You can't tell me I'm WRONG just because YOU don't like my theory - all they HAVE are theories, they haven't exclusively ruled any one thing out (genetics, hormones, etc.) or determined any one thing to be the cause.

Homosexuality | Serendip's Exchange
SpringerLink -
What Made You Gay - What Are the Causes of Homosexuality


Sorry maura, I agree and I'll stop discussing this.


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## DSJ46 (Aug 11, 2010)

A few threads up...birds do have sex...it is just not phallic/vaginal, (the sperm doesn't get to the ovum by Federal Express ; ) This is probably because some mate in free-fall, and you want to be able to get that done in a hurry. ; )


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> :-|
> 
> Do you just argue for the sake of arguing? They don't KNOW what causes homosexuality, but sex hormone levels HAS been linked in MANY cases. I'm not talking out of my *** here, I'm speaking from scientific studies. It makes the most sense, and while it may not be documented in all cases, it seems a likely x factor in many of them, in particular transgendered people. You can't tell me I'm WRONG just because YOU don't like my theory - all they HAVE are theories, they haven't exclusively ruled any one thing out (genetics, hormones, etc.) or determined any one thing to be the cause.


You can find a study to prove just about anything if you look hard enough. There hasn't been enough research in this area yet to come to any kind of conclusion. Many people also think it "makes sense" that all women who like to work on cars are gay too. Etc. If sex hormones in the womb were the sole cause of homosexuality, there would be no sets of twins with opposing sexual orientations. 

I am a transgendered person. I was attracted to women until I started taking testosterone. Since then I have been attracted to men. I'm not the only one either: It's a well-known phenomenon in the female-to-male transsexual community. As far as I know there have been no studies as to the cause, but google "gay FTM" and you will get plenty of links. Which is sufficient proof that it happens often enough. Do a little reading on those pages, and you'll find that many of these people were not attracted to men before they started taking testosterone and were quite surprised by it.

I also know a gay man who was given testosterone to "cure" him and it completely backfired (you can extrapolate as to what exactly that means). He is not the only one either. Do a little research - that kind of "therapy" was halted years ago because it does not work. Many people on both sides of the divide only wish it were that simple.

I have been involved in the queer community for years and know several people who have had their hormone levels checked (usually for other medical reasons) and none of the tests came back abnormal. I myself used to have abnormally high estrogen levels - By your logic, I should have been a very "girly" girl, yet I was anything but. It is just not that simple.


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## whitetrashwarmblood (Aug 24, 2008)

My mare mounted another mare twice over 2-3 years ago, but she has never done it since. She didn't act studdy, she wasn't in foal, and she is not an aggressive/dominant mare at all. 

From what you said, I think it would be best to call the vet. Better safe, than sorry.


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## mliponoga (Jul 24, 2010)

I think the biggest difference is my mare is extremely dominant, I have had around 50-60 horses, and honestly couldn't think of a single one who would be able to take my mare on. Also, we had just gotten a new herd member for training and this really brought this behavior out. She doesn't hump or anything like that, just jumps up on. Maybe something she's picked up from the past? Anyways, from what her previous owner said, she's in no way homosexual. Before she was pregnant she wanted nothing more than a stud on her, I'm not concerned as she's only had this happen a couple times, and once I'm working with her, in no way does she act like a stud. From what I've read, it's only a combination between her dominance and being pregnant. I'll update if anything changes.


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

So you still aren't contacting a vet despite the well informed information you were given about potentially lethal medical conditions that could be causing this behavior?


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