# Bay or Brown colt?



## Follow (Mar 4, 2014)

Have a roan that I'm not sure is bay or brown. Genetically, I'm not aware of the difference but I'm sure there is a difference.

You can see from his pictures that he was a VERY dark bay if he is one. Which is why I am considering that he's actually brown. Since he's shed out he's aggressively roaning out so that may be harder to to tell.

Both parents are registered as bay but were never tested for color from what I'm aware of.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

At this point, nobody has identified the genetic difference between bay and brown, though many suspect there is one. [The lab that had previously claimed to test for brown has closed and it came out that test was based on an incorrect interpretation of mouse research that did not correlate to horses.]

Personally, I would consider both the colt and the mare brown due to their cinnamon colored muzzles, but they would both test as bay.


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## Follow (Mar 4, 2014)

Thank you! I agree about the mare showing signs for it as well. The colt's sire is classic blood bay so I knew if it came from somewhere that it was from the mare.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I'm no expert, but they both look to be bay roans to me. Mane and tails look too solid black to be brown horses.


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## Follow (Mar 4, 2014)

I would agree with you but there are some things that make them look brown to me. Especially the colt. The reason his mane and tail look so dark is because he's in contrast to the extreme roaning. The fuzz that's left on him couldn't be called bay from the shedding out pictures anyways because it's just bleached baby fuzz. There are plenty of black and brown foals that look bay when shedding because that fuzz is bleached by then. 

So what's left on him is only bay looking because it's sun bleached. His baby photos certainly don't have much contrast from his mane and tail to his coat color.


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## MerriBelle1 (Apr 19, 2017)

Hello! Baby looks brown to me. If there is brown around the muzzle, the eyes, the flank---they're more than likely brown. Your bay will usually have black tipped ears and black muzzle. Cute babies.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> I'm no expert, but they both look to be bay roans to me. Mane and tails look too solid black to be brown horses.


Bay and brown horses both have black manes and tails and legs. The difference, if there is one, is that the brown horse is almost black, with cinnamon muzzle and flanks. The difference between a very dark mahogany bay, a 'black bay', and a brown, is sort of subjective, since genetically they may be essentially the same color. 

You might be thinking of a very dark liver chestnut, which is not a bay at all, but the darkest expression of red.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Both Bay and Browns will have black tipped ears, nostril edging and tip of the muzzle as well as black manes, tails and legs. The black muzzle can also be from their skin color not coat color. In summer many horses lose what little coat they have in that area. Genetically they carry the agouti gene which puts them in the bay family. Browns will show more variation season to season and will have cinnamon coloration on the lower part of the face, in the armpit and flank area. Pangere can also put lighter coloration in these areas but it is typically lighter and comes with cream along the midline of the belly.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I bumped the BadassBrown thread so that you can see the variation in brown. Because of Photobucket some pics aren't visible but there are still plenty.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

QtrBel said:


> Genetically they carry the agouti gene which puts them in the bay family.


All horses have two copies of agouti - it can be dominant or recessive (or one of each), but it's always present. If they have at least one copy of dominant agouti and at least one copy of dominant extension, then they are considered bay (at least with current testing). 

It will be interesting to see if another test for brown is developed. At this point, it doesn't seem like it will be something identified on the agouti locus, as that is supposedly full mapped in horses.


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## Follow (Mar 4, 2014)

The colt and his Momma just arrived here the other day. He's actually shed out so much and is leaving a lot of his cinnamon color behind. I'm anxious to see if he will shed it of completely. He is starting to look very very dark and I'm wondering if perhaps he was just a faded black. He's has very blue tone already. I'm thinking of getting him tested. 

I had a couple trainers tell me that he isn't a bay roan and that he is actually black. Trainers of course aren't necessarily color genetic savvy of course, but his color is much more blue in real life then the photos are showing. 

I'll have to take some current photos as well because all of these are close to a month old now or older.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Generally, the first foal shed is quite dark.. and being a roan I would think would only complicate seeing his true color! Testing would certainly give you the real answer. If he is a very dark bay/brown, you may not be able to tell him from a blue roan except in the winter, when generally the cinnamon muzzle shows itself (though even that isn't always true).


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Yes, you're right. Not enough coffee on board. 

Follow if you test be sure to post results. All you would have to test for is agouti. A? and you know the baby is bay/brown. aa and you know black.


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## Follow (Mar 4, 2014)

I will be sure to post results. 

On that note, who you recommend sending a hair sample too?


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

Follow said:


> I will be sure to post results.
> 
> On that note, who you recommend sending a hair sample too?



UC Davis or Animal Genetics have the best reputations. There is another lab who offers too-good-to-be-true pricing and lots of "unique" tests who does not have a good reputation for accuracy.. just remember that often you get what you pay for.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I've used both that Phantomhorse recommended and have been satisfied with the results.


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