# Collection Vs. Headset



## paint_girl08 (Sep 15, 2008)

In order to get real collection you need to tighten you reins until he gives his nose and release, this will teach him to carry his head and give to the bit. Once he does this (he may already do that much) but push him forward at the trot to an extended trot (posting trot) and drive him forward with your seat. All the while keeping his neck and top line level while his nose stays vertical. This manuever will build up endurance, balance, hindquarters and topline
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paint_girl08 (Sep 15, 2008)

I'll try to post a pic of what I mean...
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paint_girl08 (Sep 15, 2008)

This isn't the best pic, but gives you an idea, my hands are very gentle and only applying pressure when needed. reins are nice and loose and she is striding underneath of her self well. This would be considered a posting trot or extended trot. Hope that made since..do you have any questions lol?


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

paint_girl08 said:


> In order to get real collection you need to tighten you reins until he gives his nose and release, this will teach him to carry his head and give to the bit. Once he does this (he may already do that much) but push him forward at the trot to an extended trot (posting trot) and drive him forward with your seat. All the while keeping his neck and top line level while his nose stays vertical. This manuever will build up endurance, balance, hindquarters and topline
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm assuming as this is posted in the english riding, its english riding, and I am not too sure if there are any differences between english/western.

Firstly, I think what you're trying to describe is a half halt. You don't just use the reins though. I have copied this from a previous thread I replied to as I feel that this is also what you require, OP. Headset and collection come from working from behind (not dragging on the front) and a relaxed back from the horse, half halts, leg and seat all used correctly from yourself.

Secondly, coming 'round' or on the bit comes from a mix of things, not just the bit.
You need to ensure your horse is warmed up correctly. When I warm up in walk and trot, I never go whole school, I have single loop serpentines, three loop serpentines, 20 m circles, change the rein through half the school, change out of the corner, 10m circles in walk. Anything, use your imagination.

If you struggle to get your horse to listen to your aids, and he doesn't work from behind, transitions. However, correct transitions. When you ask for walk to trot, or trot to walk/ halt it has to be on the dot, not teeper down in to it. When you think walk, he walk's. You have to prepare the horse with half halts on the outside rein, let him know something new is coming. You get him ready with your legs and seat then BAM, do it. Don't pull back on him. As you do more and practise more, it'll become easier. 

Also position. When the horse is working correctly from behind, he'll start to swing in his back, and naturally drop his head, they do it in the field, free lunging, anything. Its comfy for them. You want to have him in an outline though... so, you need quiet quiet hands. I was always told my outside rein is my 'working' rein, and my inside rein is my 'direction' rein, direction as in left right, I'm combo with leg and seat, and also head position. If your horse resists, don't pull and fight, give and take. Your trainer should be able to explain this clearly to you. Keep sending the horse forwards, though. 

Lower your hand position if you need to, and don't expect the horse to come up and neat and tidy straight away, it is very exhausting for a horse, roundess and suppleness does not mean he has to be up in your face. When he comes in to an outline, reward with a 'give' of the rein, I'm not saying throw it away, its a small action which makes all the difference in the world.

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/roundness-h-e-l-p-106269/#ixzz1hxa4eMNL
​


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I think it's not a collection you worry about, but _connection_.  For him to move round you first have to build all those muscles he needs to support himself. It takes time (quite a bit sometime) and correct riding. My best advice would be to take some lessons with the dressage trainer.


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## paint_girl08 (Sep 15, 2008)

The principles are the same western or english. You still need collection and connection. To build balance, strength, hindquarters and top line. Whether in a western or english saddle the horse should still be strided forward while also gently asking for collection from the face. This will make the horse have to pick up their forequarters in order to keep up the speed, and in turn producing muscles and balance.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

paint_girl08 said:


> The principles are the same western or english. You still need collection and connection. To build balance, strength, hindquarters and top line. Whether in a western or english saddle the horse should still be strided forward while also gently asking for collection from the face. This will make the horse have to pick up their forequarters in order to keep up the speed, and in turn producing muscles and balance.



But you don't ask for collection from the 'face' of the horse, or even connection. That's what makes a horse heavy on the fore, lean in to the hands of the rider and ignore aids from the bit.

To ask from collection, a correct half halt is required, at the right time, whilst the inside leg gives impulsion on the trunk, the rider uses its seat. Its not just about using your hands to bring your horse's nose to its chest, you have to collect an ENTIRE horse, not just the front end.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Duffy is right (not sure about western riding, but I'd guess it's also the entire horse, not just front). 

And while this video was beat up to death on this forum I gonna post it anyway for the OP  :


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Kitten wish I could watch that but I think that would be the straw that breaks the camel's back and my laptop would die!


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

paint_girl08 said:


> asking for collection from the face. .


The western pleasure call their "collection" and do it from the front end but never should it be asked for this way.

Also you can never get collection from a curb bit.

True collection comes from the hind and your description of blocking the front and driving into unyielding hands ( your first post) is completely wrong as it usually results in a horse that becomes heavy in the front, heavy in the reins and many times learns to just rush around the arena.

I don't post in the western section as they have their own version of "collection" that I do not agree with so be prepared to get the same sort of response from the English riders that have any knowledge of what training practices are done in this discipline.


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## paint_girl08 (Sep 15, 2008)

DuffyDuck said:


> But you don't ask for collection from the 'face' of the horse, or even connection. That's what makes a horse heavy on the fore, lean in to the hands of the rider and ignore aids from the bit.
> 
> To ask from collection, a correct half halt is required, at the right time, whilst the inside leg gives impulsion on the trunk, the rider uses its seat. Its not just about using your hands to bring your horse's nose to its chest, you have to collect an ENTIRE horse, not just the front end.


I was trying to explain to use a half halt earlier, yes I know collection is the "ENTIRE" horse. But the horse must know and be able to give their head and respect the bit. Thats what I was trying to say. I'm sorry if you took it as thats all you do. But it doesn't matter how many half halts or impulsion you get, if the horse doesn't respect the bit and give you their head all you will be doing is teaching the horse to strain against you and not round and be supple. Sorry if you misunderstood :-(


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

paint_girl08 said:


> I was trying to explain to use a half halt earlier, yes I know collection is the "ENTIRE" horse. But the horse must know and be able to give their head and respect the bit. Thats what I was trying to say. I'm sorry if you took it as thats all you do. But it doesn't matter how many half halts or impulsion you get, if the horse doesn't respect the bit and give you their head all you will be doing is teaching the horse to strain against you and not round and be supple. Sorry if you misunderstood :-(



The problem is, unless you tell people how to do the entire thing, they just go on and pull the mouth.. thats why I put my posts.

Respect for the bit comes with soft hands-soft hands, soft mouth. I don't want my horse to just 'give' its head either though, that means its working on a false outline, most of the time overbent. I have to work for it, walk, trot, canter. Half halts, seat and legs. 

And it DOES matter how many half halts and impulsion you give- you should only have to give it once with a half halt, possible more if you're changing within the gait to do half pass, pirouttes, medium to collected.

You teach the horse to work from behind, and you will need hardly anything from the front, the respect comes pretty naturally and you'll have a horse more willing to work than one you're constantly fiddling with at the front.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

paint_girl08 said:


> I was trying to explain to use a half halt earlier, yes I know collection is the "ENTIRE" horse. But the horse must know and be able to give their head and respect the bit. Thats what I was trying to say. I'm sorry if you took it as thats all you do. But it doesn't matter how many half halts or impulsion you get, if the horse doesn't respect the bit and give you their head all you will be doing is teaching the horse to strain against you and not round and be supple. Sorry if you misunderstood :-(



The horse "comes to the bit *AS A RESULT* of the correct connection of the hind"......not the hind comes under/connected by respecting the bit.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Spyder said:


> The horse "comes to the bit *AS A RESULT* of the correct connection of the hind"......not the hind comes under/connected by respecting the bit.


Western riders will never get it. To them it's all about beating the horse into submission with harsh bits and spurs. No thank you.

Plus they do not understand that collection can never be achieved by force (another word for "respect").

*NOTE ADDED BY A MODERATOR*: Please do not bother responding to this comment, as it has been addressed here: http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/collection-vs-headset-107676/#post1285272. Thanks to those who reported it.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> Duffy is right (not sure about western riding, but I'd guess it's also the entire horse, not just front).
> 
> And while this video was beat up to death on this forum I gonna post it anyway for the OP  : Dressage Teacher Jane Savoie and The "Connecting Half Halt" - YouTube


Not really sure why that video has been beaten to death. It is fundamentally correct.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

LovePandaPony said:


> I was wondering, what are some exercises I can do with him to gain strength in his hind end and make him push, instead of just rounding his neck and acting like he is?
> 
> (And while I'm at it, anyone know and tips for the days when his canter is extremely flat and so is his jump?)


The answer to both your questions is the same, and this thread has plenty of suggestions to get you going: http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/horse-heavy-forehand-canter-107348/


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

mildot said:


> Western riders will never get it. To them it's all about beating the horse into submission with harsh bits and spurs. No thank you.
> 
> Plus they do not understand that collection can never be achieved by force (another word for "respect").



-head desk-

And its comments like that which turn threads in to debating, digressing nightmares. Any chance you could word your comments some what more diplomatically so the entire thread doesn't poof?

tia.


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## Rachel1786 (Nov 14, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Duffy is right (not sure about western riding, but I'd guess it's also the entire horse, not just front).
> 
> And while this video was beat up to death on this forum I gonna post it anyway for the OP  : Dressage Teacher Jane Savoie and The "Connecting Half Halt" - YouTube


Thanks for posting that video Kitten, I know I've seen it before but I'm at the point in my riding where I understand it now and I will try to apply what she is saying tomorrow when I ride Bella :-o My instructor doesn't really know much about dressage so I'm pretty much on my own when it comes to that kind of stuff.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

To build the muscles necessary for self carriage...get out of arena, take horse out into fields, woods, or dirt road, and hack. Walk up every gentle slope you can find. Don't let him canter up, that's him cheating. In a few weeks time you will have a well built machine back there. You'll know he's got the proper muscles developed when he voluntarily walks down hills dead straight by sitting his back end rather than weaving back and forth. Warning...horse will be forward and having lots of fun. Rider too.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Any chance you could word your comments some what more diplomatically so the entire thread doesn't poof?


If the moderators object, they can remove it.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

mildot said:


> If the moderators object, they can remove it.



Not to have the last word, but in hope to end this- the moderators have life outside the HF, and the less they have to deal with offensive posts, the better, don't you think...? To be fair you posted that for a reaction, pretty much from the western riders, and destroy a thread.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

LovePandaPony said:


> I was wondering, what are some exercises I can do with him to gain strength in his hind end and make him push, instead of just rounding his neck and acting like he is?


Wow folks, just read some of the posts. A wee bit judgemental, don't ya all think? Read the above sentence. She wants the horse to push from behind and not just round his neck...unless I completely forgot how to read, she understands collection. English, western, sidesaddle, she wants the horse to gain enough muscle to be able to retrain him to reach into the bit. Give her a break already. You'd think her OP said, "how can I get his head to look pretty?"


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Folks, moderators DO have lives that we would like to lead. Speaking for myself only, I'm tired of trying to clean up messes that should never have been made in the first place.

I'm leaving the posts as an example of how NOT to post.

Let's focus the thread on exercises that will help a horse engage from the rear, and strengthen its hind & back. That is not an English vs Australian vs Western vs Dressage vs WP vs Jumping question. Few sports require near constant collection, but most want it available at times. How can you train & condition a horse to gather himself in preparation of XYZ?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

MBP I don't think any of the "you're doing it wrong" posts were aimed at the OP, more at the second poster who basically told the OP to haul that head in to get collection.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Wow folks, just read some of the posts. A wee bit judgemental, don't ya all think? Read the above sentence. She wants the horse to push from behind and not just round his neck...unless I completely forgot how to read, she understands collection. English, western, sidesaddle, she wants the horse to gain enough muscle to be able to retrain him to reach into the bit. Give her a break already. You'd think her OP said, "how can I get his head to look pretty?"



If you read the above posts, working the horse correctly will allow it to do so- building up the muscle over time. I don't see any judgement, I see information, a bit of debating.. digressing towards the end, but none the less, info to help with this sort of problem.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

mildot said:


> Not really sure why that video has been beaten to death. It is fundamentally correct.


It IS correct. I was referring to the fact it was posted here hundred times (by me including).


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

DuffyDuck said:


> If you read the above posts, working the horse correctly will allow it to do so- building up the muscle over time. I don't see any judgement, I see information, a bit of debating.. digressing towards the end, but none the less, info to help with this sort of problem.


I actually don't see any really incorrect advice given on this thread. Even the second poster is saying mostly the same concept, just not with the traditional english style of constant contact. In my book self carriage is just that, self carriage. Technically, reins are an afterthought if the horse is holding himself up, no?


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

MyBoyPuck said:


> I actually don't see any really incorrect advice given on this thread. Even the second poster is saying mostly the same concept, just not with the traditional english style of constant contact. In my book self carriage is just that, self carriage. Technically, reins are an afterthought if the horse is holding himself up, no?


That was what I said in my initial post- I don't know if English/Western is different for contact, however this is in the English riding section, so I'd assumer the OP is riding English.

When you read further through, paint_girl stated that she had meant the whole horse, but only posted about the respect for the bit. I posted a more in depth answer for the entire horse- so where as paint_girl has the good ol' your horse has to listen to your bit, I would say its slightly different to our wat of riding, and I just added to it- entire horse, not just the mouth will make the horse come round properly. THEN youc an start thinking about excercises to build the correct muscles.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

Hope we didn't chase any Western riders out of here.... I thought she made some sense.

I am wondering though. What comes first? Softness or collection/forwardness?


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

BaileyJo said:


> I am wondering though. What comes first? Softness or collection/forwardness?


My take on it is, if you have no forward, there's nothing up front to "collect". If you have no softness, the horse is just going to brace against the bit and half halts will not go through. In the whole grand scheme of things, I don't think anything really comes first other than relaxation. You can't teach anything to a tense horse

I guess that's why I like the hacking in fields idea so much. It builds muscle very quickly, gives the horse's mind a rest, usually produces all kinds of forward, and the rider gets to experience a horse truly reaching into the bit rather trotting around a flat ring in endless circles trying to find the missing ingredient.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

MyBoyPuck said:


> My take on it is, if you have no forward, there's nothing up front to "collect". If you have no softness, the horse is just going to brace against the bit and half halts will not go through. In the whole grand scheme of things, I don't think anything really comes first other than relaxation. You can't teach anything to a tense horse



Completely agree- you need to have the softness, and progress from there. If your horse is resisting, something has gone wrong training/pain are usually the problems, and then you need to correct that- otherwise you're hanging on to a lot of horse when you want to come BACK from going forwards ;D


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I don't compete in anything. If you saw me ride, you would understand why. 

However, for me, riding is about building a relationship with my horses so that WE are trying to handle something TOGETHER. If I am thinking about going into a canter, I want my horse to feel it, gather himself, and then unwind. If we're doing a sharp turn at speed, I want him to pull back a little and power his way thru the turn with his rear because HE knows to do it.

So for me, softness and trust comes first. Then we have the basis to push things together. But I don't compete, so I don't know if that approach would work for anyone else. :wink:


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

bsms said:


> I don't compete in anything. If you saw me ride, you would understand why.
> 
> However, for me, riding is about building a relationship with my horses so that WE are trying to handle something TOGETHER. If I am thinking about going into a canter, I want my horse to feel it, gather himself, and then unwind. If we're doing a sharp turn at speed, I want him to pull back a little and power his way thru the turn with his rear because HE knows to do it.
> 
> So for me, softness and trust comes first. Then we have the basis to push things together. But I don't compete, so I don't know if that approach would work for anyone else. :wink:



But it shouldn't matter whether you compete or not.. I have only done one out of house show, and a couple in house but they were jumping. I am hoping to get out more next year... but competitions or not, the basics for horse riding, once you have your own basics sorted out (C'mon guys.. we all had that awkward riding trot phase ;D) is softness, suppleness and the connection with the horse no matter what discipline... it just appears there are different ways to do it...?

Regardless of competitions, we always learn with our horses, and should always want to learn  Because some compete it doesn't make their riding any different, in the fundementals, to a happy hacker! Sure, you can add a few more fancy leg movements in etc, but w/t/c and transitions to and from are all about achieving the same thing..


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

bsms said:


> So for me, softness and trust comes first. Then we have the basis to push things together. But I don't compete, so I don't know if that approach would work for anyone else. :wink:



Yes softness..non resistant comes first....only from there can impulsion be built.........HOWEVER..

Not from a blocked front end. Drive must be directed from the hind legs. This can be from hill work or by lateral work and over time the hind will get stronger that will allow the rider to be able to ask more and the horse can give more.

Only from this point will the energy from the rear ALLOW the front end to get lighter and the head will come round and be in a frame that FITS the horse's level of training to that point.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

DuffyDuck said:


> But you don't ask for collection from the 'face' of the horse, or even connection. That's what makes a horse heavy on the fore, lean in to the hands of the rider and ignore aids from the bit.
> 
> To ask from collection, a correct half halt is required, at the right time, whilst the inside leg gives impulsion on the trunk, the rider uses its seat. *Its not just about using your hands to bring your horse's nose to its chest, you have to collect an ENTIRE horse, not just the front end.*





*I do not think Paint girl is saying to pull the horse's head to its' chest. What she is describing is very close to the half halt, except that she has not included the use of the seat to momentarily restrain the forward motion. Perhaps she is doing this without realizing it, as many accomplished riders do.*


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

There is 0 backwards motion of the hand in a half halt. There is a moment of suppling and a give - the give is the important part.
The legs are on to engage the hindlegs and the seat drives and stalls as needed.

Collection has very little to do with the speed of the horse and correct self carriage requires years to develop and although the horse is carrying himself - the connection is quite strong, but not hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LovePandaPony (Aug 14, 2011)

Thank you all SO much for your advice. I'm really using all this to my extent, but for me the only thing here that helped me with my main question, exercises to get more muscle in the hind end and get them to push instead of pull, was the hack :\

I think that was my fault though xD I wasn't clear enough in the earlier post.

The only thing I am a wee bit disappointed at was a comment in here stating that western was about beating into submission etc. I do hunter, eventing, and jumpers, but I also do western pleasure and team penning. I know MANY western riders who treat their horses better then a lot of my English team mates. This was a thread to ask about collection, not your view on what the other discipline is doing wrong. :|

Thank you all who commented. :3


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Correct riding builds correct muscles.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I do not think Western riders have a monopoly on incorrect use of spurs or curb bits
Also, collection absolutley can be achieved with a curb bit. WAy back there, someone said it cannot but this cannot be so. Even in dressage, a double bridle is used in the higher levels, with part of that bridle being a curb bit.

The Californios cowboys are excellent riders who ride with collection and self carriage , in a curb bit.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I disagree somewhat - collection requires connection which cannot easily be achieved in a curb alone. The horse cannot be ducked behind the bit - he must come into it and be supple. This is very hard to achieve without a soft snaffle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Collection can take place without a bit. It seems to me a curb bit, with the right rider, shouldn't be a problem.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

bsms said:


> Collection can take place without a bit. It seems to me a curb bit, with the right rider, shouldn't be a problem.


Most riders with a curb simply crank the head in - it takes a very educated hand to collect correctly in a curb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

From a western point of view, I agree with both tiny & Anebel. Collection in a curb is absolutely possible but they've generally learned it in a snaffle first. 

I also agree with Spyder that the hindquarters need to be conditioned before collection can be expected. A horse without the proper muscle and conditioning cannot get hind legs working under itself properly.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

We may be using different definitions but the same word - which causes confusion. I'm reading V.S. Littauer's "Common Sense Horsemanship". In one spot, he argues - correctly I think - that many of us who use the word 'collection' put an improper meaning to it.

"...you hear people say that they collect their horses before the jump or in a trappy situation in the hunting field...One in a thousand of those who use this word so easily, really collects his horse. The best of the rest merely refer to the ability of their horses to change their balance by gathering themselves, which is known as 'coming back' and which requires only a simple technique on the part of the rider....and you will have to argue hard to prove that it [collection] is necessary for cross-country riding and jumping." - page 203​Now arguably, if 999 out of 1000 use a word for one meaning, and only 1 in 1000 uses it correctly, then maybe the definition of the 1 is wrong.

However that may be, the OP was referring to jumping. And with my very limited horses and limited riding skill, it is a safe bet that I NEVER 'collect' my horse in the sense a good dressage rider would. That is why I used the term 'gather' earlier - that change of balance where the horse coils up, and gets ready to use his hind legs to power the anticipated change - acceleration, jump, sharp turn, etc.

I think it would take a very special person to collect a horse in the Olympic sense using a curb or training it without a bit - although a well trained horse could then PERFORM it without a bit.

Since the OP referred to jumping, and since I freely admit my limitations, I just wanted to clarify what I meant. I have never ridden a collected horse in the dressage sense of the word. I have ridden my horse where they gather themselves and get ready to use their hind end. That is the momentary 'collection' that I meant.

BTW - I may try to train myself to use the word 'gather' instead of 'collect'. One of my pet peeves is someone applying two different definitions to one word, and it makes sense to me to save 'collect' for the more Olympic-style, dressage collection.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> Also, collection absolutely can be achieved with a curb bit. WAy back there, someone said it cannot but this cannot be so. *Even in dressage, a double bridle is used in the higher levels, with part of that bridle being a curb bit.*
> 
> The Californios cowboys are excellent riders who ride with collection and self carriage , in a curb bit.



The curb bit does not achieve collection...it may refine it but it has to be there in the first place.

That is why the curb/double bridle is not introduced before it is...because the collection would have already been worked on and achieved to some degree before the curb is introduced in the higher levels of dressage. 

Even the Californian Cowboys with spade bits...did NOT START their horses in that bit but PROGRESSED to it with the spade as the last REFINEMENT on the horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

That is true. I agree. I thought that someone said that a horse could not be RIDDEN in collection in a curb.

Yes, earlier training is in a bosal or snaffle.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

True collection is a extremely cool feeling. Never mind about his head, neck, bit, blah, blah. I love the feeling where his back rounds up and his muscles at his sides meet my muscles at my calves. The rest just follows & the energy flows and I capture it in my hands and release it out, like liquid silk.


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