# Wow this is terrible!!!



## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

That's weird! Maybe they just don't like horses! I find that odd. lol. There's nothing wrong with reining. And it's not "proposterous" or whatever. Weird, weird, weird. Coolio to bring that up. lol.


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

I know I wonder why they are so aginst it?


----------



## buckaroo2010 (Nov 7, 2007)

yeah thats every werid!!! I have never heard of that before1 :?


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

I know, reining can be dangerous but so can any other sport. Most of the time the horses really enjoy it!


----------



## Equina (Jul 28, 2007)

Wow, crazy. I'm not even a Western rider, but that write-up seemed "preposterous" itself! 

Even from the very beginning: "I can think of no other recognized riding activity that causes injuries (usually permanent) in so many participating horses." Umm, what about racing? I'm sure there are tons of injuries to those Thoroughbreds running as fast as they can as 2 year olds! Many are off to stud or broodmare status by 5 years old (while your Reining Horse will be going strong and competitive into his teens). 

Also, to those of you who know more about Western Spins than I do...a question! This article described the spin where one rear hoof stays stationary and the other steps in a backwards motion. So, say you are spinning to the left, the right rear is stationary and the left rear is going backwards in a circle? Is that correct? I would always image the left rear staying put while the right rear follows the body motion forward and counter-clockwise (left).

It's funny how the writer described the reining pattern as "insane." I just got a book of practice patterns for hunter/jumper and WOW! Take that reining pattern, add cavaletti, jumps, transitions, and halts. Now _that's_ insane (but in a good way!)

Whatever :roll: Reining looks like a ton of fun and even the horses get all spunked up and seem to enjoy it. Every Reining Horse Owner I've ever met has taken wonderful care of their horses.


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

I know I agree! I can't think of why this person dislikes it so much? Reining isn't bad. I don't think they know much about it if they exsplain it that way! :?


----------



## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

I have recently become interested in reining and have been training my stallion to do so. I have to admit that I thought that was a good article. The author actually makes some good points. 

Reining, like any other discipline can get taken to the extreme. I think the article is a good reminder to just be sure to put the welfare, soundness, happiness, and safety of your horse above winning in reining or any other discipline for that matter. 

The maneuvers in reining may not have much practical appliance when compared to "real" western riding, but I think being able to perform them to some accuracy shows real control and communication with your horse. Also, I have noticed since starting reining training that collection is required to properly do the maneuvers. 

I think it is good to listen to opposing views about the things we are interested in with an open mind. It makes us think, and not get wrapped up in winning, money, ribbons, etc. 

If sliders really are detrimental, maybe don't use sliders and just don't demand such long stops?? I don't know...reining, like anything else does not have to be taken to the extreme. It can still show a well trained horse with 5-10 stops and slow but steady spins, etc.


----------



## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I agree completely with AK. There are extremes in any discipline and people who are willing to sacrifice the horses health to achieve a win. I admire all organized horse compettions although I don't partake in them myself. Its the extremes of any sport that I don't understand. Be it the athlete who uses sterioids and ruins his health and mind or the horse trainer that uses cruel devises to achieve their goals. 
We are about an hour and a half drive from Oklahoma City, reinging horse heaven. I can see how many of the cowboys around here can use a lot of the manuvers in the everyday cattle work they do. I figure the "spin" got started because some Okie thought it was fun :wink: I imagine they get pretty bored.


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

But reining isn't obserd it's fun


----------



## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

they do take it to the max with all the competitions and all the profit! I think its cool though!


----------



## Tessa Bear (May 15, 2007)

no offence but i don't see why you dislike saddleseat so much.

there is only really one class of horses that abuse is prominate, and even now they are cracking down very hard on it.

just because someone does not agree with you does not mean you need to bash them in posts. i'm sorry but this just my opinion....


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

Tessa Bear said:


> no offence but i don't see why you dislike saddleseat so much.
> 
> there is only really one class of horses that abuse is prominate, and even now they are cracking down very hard on it.
> 
> just because someone does not agree with you does not mean you need to bash them in posts. i'm sorry but this just my opinion....


you may want to talk about the saddleseat subject in the saddleseat thread. i believe she is talking about reining in this thread


----------



## alucard (Dec 8, 2006)

I'd just like to say that every discipline in horsemanship where the horse doesn't perform like it would in a pasture is extreme, dangerous and sometimes unhealthy. 

Show jumping: 

Horses are not deer. They are not built to handle impact to their joints like deer...period.

Dressage. 

NO ONE uses horses for military anymore. NO ONE. therefore all those fancy pirouettes and stuff are useless and impractical...although pretty to watch.

Rodeo (cow roping and Bronc Riding and wild Mare Race): 

No respectable cowboy would EVER treat a horse or a cow that way.. Both of those animals are worth money. Anyone that has a working ranch and raises cows would NEVER treat animal that way. And they would be disgusted with people that do.

Gaited Horse Shows:

I'm not sure what the point is...other than to see a horse walk strangely...and who can do it the best. lol.

Horse racing and Steeplechase:

CRUEL!!!! you want to talk about abuse! Racing babies is not my idea of a good time.Then abusing them and throwing them away because they don't win. Rubbish. I want to take all of the racing TB's and keep them in a barn where nice people won't ride them till their bones harden and they're mentally ready for riding safely. Plus I'll go back to my show jumping statement for steeplechase in saying that horses are NOT DEER! Period.

Reining and Barrel Racing: 

Both hard on the joints but I would say kinder to the mouth than some dressage people, although I have seen some women really crank on their horses mouths for barrels, which isn't nice. 

IN SUMMATION!!! People use horses for unnatural things that they don't do in the wild, which can be considered cruel...I know that it's about a relationship with your animal and that you're doing something that is really unique to watch and all....And don't get me wrong! I'm a western and english girl! I do jumping and reining and all, but all disciplines are mean in some way or another, because none of them are natural.. Don't try to tell me that a horse trots in place in the wild (dressage people) and don't tell me that a horse spins on its heels (reining people). It just doesn't happen. :idea:


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Very well said alucard!


----------



## Tarvas Munkee (Jan 6, 2008)

I don't want to start a whole dramatic scene, and I agree with a lot of the points stated above, however...I have to speak up and say something about the racing part. You even stated in your post that none of those disciplines were natural to a horse if they were out in the pasture...the only one that is, is racing. Horses in the wild run, it's the most natural thing for them. Therefore, racing would be one of if not the most "natural" discipline. 

Now, i'm not trying to start chaos or specifically argue your points, and some of them are correct, but it's not fair to say they're all treated cruelly and abuse and thrown away. That's nuts. Most of those horses on the backside are treated better than any people back there, or better yet, horses anywhere else. This really bothers me, just like the usual "TB's are crazy" stereo-typical statements. And "TB's aren't trained"....just because they aren't trained for the discipline that you bought them for off the track, certainly doesn't mean that they aren't trained. They are very well trained, for the racing discipline. Where else will you find such well-broke 2 y/os? These horses see chaos and crazy / scary things every day. They really are broke to a lot. Anyway i'm getting off track here, back to my point. Most of these horses are treated very well, get very well groomed, cared for, their legs are done up every day, etc, etc. 

Don't get me wrong, just as there is in any part of the business, there are animals that aren't treated like they should be, and some do end up at the sales, but not like they make it out to be. This is infuriating to read, when i've been to numerous QH farms they believe in the "Submission" training, and keep them tied up for hrs and hrs on end, same with polo ponies, and many others. I've seen many other breeds at the sales, but still yet, people for some reason want to focus in on the TB's and rant an rave and give the racing industry a bad name. Yes, unfortunately sometimes horses have fatal injuries, but as many horses that run and as many races that are run on a daily basis in this country, it's minimal. There are a lot of rules and restrictions on horses able to run, drug rules, etc, etc. Just as much as there are unfortunately fatal injuries on the track, there are horses starving and having fatal injuries on the farm. Another thing, when horses are injured or have a bout of colic or anything like that on the track, you almost never hear of the owner putting them down, unless they have exhausted all other options. You almost never hear of an owner that wont do surgery for colic or to remove chips, etc, etc. On the other hand, you hear it all the time for simple ranch horses that they think just don't deserve the money wasted.

I understand there are some things in the business that aren't right, but I felt as though I needed to somewhat defend it, because some of those points quite honestly just weren't fair to say.


----------



## alucard (Dec 8, 2006)

Back east, my mother had many many friends that would rescue TB's from racing. They weren't crazy, and I NEVER said anything about TB's being crazy, but they were clearly unhappy. One of my mothers friends adopted one that his owners and trainers would shock him with cattle prods when he lost a race and they would beat him in his stall daily, and when they put him in the rack they would whip him so he would jump out of there as fast as possible. I dissagree with you that there are more nice people in the industry than mean. I think that once you get up to the national races and such those horses are treated better but that still doesn't rule out abuse. Their 2 year olds for crying out loud! No 2 year old horse is mentally ready for that.

TB's grow very fast. They are probably the fastest growing and maturing horses out there, but their bones are not hard and their knees are not fused so all that impact they take from racing ruins them. Also, you talk about horse racing as a natural thing in the wild......no. Horses in the wild run, they don't race, and they certainly don't race 2 miles when they're two. Doesn't happen. Short sprints yes, cantering and galloping yes, but racing like they do on the track, no. Horse racing is taking something that a horse does naturally, run, and exploiting it to the very extreme.

And, 2 year old TB's aren't "well broke" They are trained to tolerate someone on their back that weighs 70 lbs and all they are "broke" to do is run. Not show collection or any respect for the bit but run. 

As for colic surgery, there is no garuntee that a horse will recover fully or at all, or if they do, they are prone to colic after that. Horses take an extremely long time to heal too, so when Barbaro shattered his leg, and he got surgery to fix it and they only gave him however many months to heal before racing him again? My best estimate is that his leg was not healed, thus it shattered again and they put him down. That doesn't sound like responsible horsemanship to me. That sounds like using the animal for the maximum amount of profit possible.

Ranch horses have a job. They don't start their training until about 4 when their bones harden. The people that use them treat them with the best respect (usually, there are exceptions everywhere) and they recieve care. Ranch horses are treated like this because the people that own them realize that they need them to do their jobs. It's like a vehical. If you want it to be reliable, you change it's oil, you make sure the engine is working properly and you give it the right gas. If you rally the car and don't take care of it it's not going to work properly. If you ask a horse to do extraordinary things, it will exhaust itself. This is true for all dosciplines, including racing. I would guess that's why the number of OTTB's in slaughter houses is high. It's easier to get rid of something that won't perform the way you want it to work with it and make it better. 

I have no idea where you get the submission training from. No one I know or read about does that. You said that TB's are so broke they're around all that noise and chaos but they act good....every time I see a TB before they race or a racing TB period, it's all the rider can do to keep the horse at a walk, and it's not calm by any means. Every rescued TB that I've ever heard about has only known how to run run run, and only take left turns. Reining horses HAVE to maintain a calm temperment, and they certainly don't look nervous at all, same with Dressage horses and some Showjumpers. Racing TB's don't have that because they were never trained to have that. 

ON A SIDE NOTE: It's easier to make money on the racing industry because they use those horses so young and they go through them so much. With Reining and Dressage, it's unusual to have a horse compete that's younger than 9 usually because they take time to train those horses and they make sure that their bones and muscles are ready to handle the competions...plus they are ready mentally at that age to handle the amount of stress. Don't try to tell me that racing is more mentally strenuous than Dressage. All racers have to know is RUN RUN RUN, think about how many things a Dressage horse has to know. Or a reining horse. ShowJumpers compete from 6-15 or so depending on the horse, but then again, they need that time to have their knees fuse so they can handle the impact of jumping. Something that racing TB's don't get. ( but, horses are not deer.....so jumping like that is eventually wears down their joints)

I would agree with you that some people that race TB's treat them well. As well as you can treat a baby 2 year old that hasn't had a chance to be a horse yet.


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

^^^I agree.


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

^^^ i also agree. how can putting a 2 year old into fully fledged racing be justified in any way? in dressage or any of the other disciplines, a 2 year old will only just be starting and thats a 2 year old that is closer to a three year old. by 5 or 6 a racing tb is done. finished. and then cast aside for the next baby to take its place. ive seen it over and over again. 

and how many tb's retire at 3 or 4 with bowed tendons and other miscellaneous injuries that leave them like this for the rest of their life??!! its the harsh reality of the racing industry. we can close our eyes to it as much as we want but that doesnt take away how it really is. "breaking" too young...racing too young...whipping them to get that extra lit bit out...etc etc IMO there is no justification for this. 

i know in other industries the less responsible people can do much of the same thing but it is usually frowned upon but, when a 2 year old wins the melbourne cup everyone goes 'wow! she must be a great horse to win at the age of two'. and yes, it may well be a great horse but not for long. and then it will be sold to an owner that really cares and will be properly broken so it knows more than go, turn left and stop when you're ready. oh and dont forget the desensitisation process and the desire to do nothing but gallop and run themselves into the ground if they arent the leader horse in the pack. this shows major mental conditioning in a bad way to me. 

as will all who feel the need to advocate something, there are a thousand more who can see the cruelty involved in certain things. defending the racing industry in my eyes, is speaking to the deaf and while opinions are duly noted, they dont change the reality.


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Well said jazzyrider.

I can't belive the abuse some of those racehorses go through.  Why do they race 2 and 3 year old anyway? You would think that they would want there bones and joints to be strong enough to last. :?


----------



## tim (Dec 31, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> You would think that they would want there bones and joints to be strong enough to last. :?


HA! No. The owners don't care. You've seen them. They sit up in their luxurious little boxes and preside over the race. Then if the horse wins they come down and pretend it was all their doing. All the time, they can't take their eyes off the check they're about to recieve (as if they needed the money.) If it doesn't win, they go to the parking lot and get in their monster SUV and drive away.

The trainers have no reason to care either. They're paid to produce winner's and if the horse isn't winning they're just as happy to get rid of it. It's not like it's their horse anyway...

Thats the problem, there's no real sense of ownership unless the horse is a big winner. The real owners are so distant and the trainers just train. No one (or no one with any power) really cares for the animals on a personal level. 

If only every racehorse were lucky enough to be a big winner... :roll:


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> Well said jazzyrider.
> 
> I can't belive the abuse some of those racehorses go through.  Why do they race 2 and 3 year old anyway? You would think that they would want there bones and joints to be strong enough to last. :?


i wholeheartedly agree. racehorses dont need to be started so young. they could quite easily go through the same breaking routine at a reasonable age and then start racing at 4 and still have plenty of time for winning and a reasonable career that wont put their future health and soundness in jeopardy. a horse can run as fast as a 4 year old as it could as a 2 year old. the problem is, these money hungry owners who want to get everyone on the track ASAP simply dont care as they have the money thats lining their pockets to go out and buy another yearling to do the same thing to in the hope that the next one will win them a million. and so on. its a continuing spiral of young horses started too young, injured or proven no good for racing and then tossed aside and then the circle starts again. it really makes me sick that the life of a horse is seen in much the same way as a disposable camera or razor...use it while you need it and then throw it away :evil:


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> Well said jazzyrider.
> 
> I can't belive the abuse some of those racehorses go through.  Why do they race 2 and 3 year old anyway? You would think that they would want there bones and joints to be strong enough to last. :?


thanks  i thought so too


----------



## cheekyhorse (Jul 24, 2007)

alucard said:


> I'd just like to say that every discipline in horsemanship where the horse doesn't perform like it would in a pasture is extreme, dangerous and sometimes unhealthy.
> 
> show jumping:
> 
> ...


regarding your dressage accusations.......you haven't seen my stallion doing canter pirouettes with a bucket in his mouth in his paddock!! And yes, SOME horses DO trot on the spot when really excited, I've SEEN them!! They certainley passage now don't they? I even have video on my phone of my stallion doing the pirouettes! They are textbook perfect too........
(when a horse is bred specifically for a certain discipline it is bred into them to perform the maneuvours to some extent. 
I don't think being mean is quite the right thing to say about sport horses..... I take FULL offense to that, my horses are treated better than I treat myself, and they fully enjoy their 'work'.


----------



## tranquilo (Dec 17, 2007)

Someone implied that two year olds run in two mile races...That's not at all true, at least here. In the US, they don't even have two mile races for older horses. Most two year olds race under a mile. Two year olds also do not race in the Melbourne Cup, which is for horses three years old and up.

They actually did studies to see if starting a horse's racing career later (4 or older) was safer. It actually turned out to be *more *dangerous, because their bones hadn't been adjusted to that kind of stress.

Regarding owners...My partners and I own a filly who is really nice, but not really good enough to run in anything but claiming races. We were "not caring" enough that she got regular massage therapy for her cold back, vacations on the farm, etc. Now she's enjoying retirement at a very beautiful farm. Poor abused thing. :wink: I'm not going to be naive and say that everyone in the racing industry is 100% ethical. But to generalize *everyone* who owns racehorses as abusive or uncaring or just in it for the money is completely wrong.


----------



## Jr_lover (Apr 14, 2007)

I have to agree with tranquilo honestly stating all this about race horses is wrong. They pretty much did selective breeding to do all this so that the horses can take it and run that fast. Just like with racing dogs selective breeding of course. You wouldn't see a wolf running like greyhounds now would you? Of course not...

Also i don't think i know anyone that trains their horse at 5 years old :lol: thats just strange. Most normal people start their horses at 2 or 3.

Also the reason you might think racing is so bad is just because of the press just like with celebrities they only wanna post what people might find interesting. Of course they are going to choose to post about that one horse that got put down over the tons of horses that got pampered. Now why would a horse being pampered be interesting to the public? Also they like to get this type of reaction out of people. Although some racers really do have bad situations most of them really are kind and pamper their horses daily. 

And i wouldn't quite call western and english the best types of NON cruel so to speak disciplines. Honestly i think forcing a horse to hold its head a certain way to look good is wrong and more stressfull than making a horse run. My horse loves to run so i don't see why that would be so stressfull and hard compared to learning a certain motion of the legs or jumping formation. 

Although i have no problems with any of the disciplines because honestly in every discipline there is someone that does wrong its not just one specific discipline that does wrong. Well thats just my 2 cents.


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

tranquilo said:


> Someone implied that two year olds run in two mile races...That's not at all true, at least here. In the US, they don't even have two mile races for older horses. Most two year olds race under a mile. *Two year olds also do not race in the Melbourne Cup, which is for horses three years old and up.
> *
> They actually did studies to see if starting a horse's racing career later (4 or older) was safer. It actually turned out to be *more *dangerous, because their bones hadn't been adjusted to that kind of stress.
> 
> Regarding owners...My partners and I own a filly who is really nice, but not really good enough to run in anything but claiming races. We were "not caring" enough that she got regular massage therapy for her cold back, vacations on the farm, etc. Now she's enjoying retirement at a very beautiful farm. Poor abused thing. :wink: I'm not going to be naive and say that everyone in the racing industry is 100% ethical. But to generalize *everyone* who owns racehorses as abusive or uncaring or just in it for the money is completely wrong.


ok so i chose, for examples sake, a race people in other countries may have heard of.


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

Jr_lover said:


> I have to agree with tranquilo honestly stating all this about race horses is wrong. They pretty much did selective breeding to do all this so that the horses can take it and run that fast. Just like with racing dogs selective breeding of course. You wouldn't see a wolf running like greyhounds now would you? Of course not...
> 
> Also i don't think i know anyone that trains their horse at 5 years old :lol: thats just strange. Most normal people start their horses at 2 or 3.
> 
> ...


rollkur is nasty and is a subject of much controversy. but, when i horse is supple and on the bit so that their head is down, it is actually much better for the horse as he is carrying the riders weight in a way that is more comfortable and less damaging. from what i know, and i ride english, basically all dressage movements are enhancements of natural moving. as mentioned earlier, a horse can be seen frolicking in the paddock performing many of the movements that are perfected through dressage. 

and yes, most horses love to run and that in itself is not damaging. its the age and extent to which this happens that is the issue. i have worked for a few trainers in the past and have seen it with my own eyes. the injuries that the vet has said himself have resulted from being too young etc its a simple fact that cant be argued by those who believe that it is not the case. i do agree that there are probably some out there who pamper their horses etc but why?? so they will win. thats what it all comes down to...the money. but the majority of owners/trainers etc arent like that so millions of horses suffer while the small majority have reasonably adequate lives. 

my example of starting racing at 4 (not 5 as stated) is not all bad. i didnt say to start breaking them then. breaking could begin earlier and the horse conditioned for racing starting at a later age. im sure there is nothing wrong with that. 

anyway, this is a dead issue to me as there is always going to be advocates and...what ever the opposite of them are :? i just wish more people out there would think about what they are really doing to their horses. let a horse be a horse and then do what you want. a horse is a horse is a horse and those not allowed to be a horse are the ones we so often see posts about who are bad mannered, prone to injury, recovering from injury or other industry related issues.


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Your right, I don't think the people in the racing industry even care about horses welfare. And when they win, they act like the horse is the best thing in the world, but when they lose you can see the anger in there eyes. :roll:


----------



## AKPaintLover (May 26, 2007)

tranquilo said:


> My partners and I own a filly ... Now she's enjoying retirement at a very beautiful farm.


How old is your retired filly?

I am sure she is not sad to be retired at whatever age on a beautiful farm, but what about the racehorses that get retired to the auctions and end up at slaughter?


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

AKPaintLover said:


> tranquilo said:
> 
> 
> > My partners and I own a filly ... Now she's enjoying retirement at a very beautiful farm.
> ...


thats it!! thats my point in my long winded way of saying things lol


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

lol the racing industry is just hopeless. I feel so bad for the poor thoroughbreds that end up being race horses. I heard from a former jockey that they would start "breaking" them at 1yrs old! Thats a real back damager don't you think? It's not natural at all to put a horse through that kind of stress that young.


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> lol the racing industry is just hopeless. I feel so bad for the poor thoroughbreds that end up being race horses. I heard from a former jockey that they would start "breaking" them at 1yrs old! Thats a real back damager don't you think? It's not natural at all to put a horse through that kind of stress that young.


yup! i worked for a trainer once that bought a yearling the day i started there are starting breaking it about 2 months later. it was doing track work about 3 months after that. and they think a race horse is properly broken after that???? i think not. all that happens at that point is the horse knows how to go forward really fast and eventually stop when the jockey pulls hard enough for long enough.

a horse that young is nowhere near fully developed and undeveloped bones have nothing to do but deform under such stress. 

but hey, some people just cant/wont accept it and that will always be the case. its sad but true. i just have no time for people who believe racing is anything other than cruel. it may be harsh of me but i fee very strongly about the racing industry


----------



## Jr_lover (Apr 14, 2007)

WOW!! At 1 yr old? 2 is one thing but 1!! Well yea i have to agree in some things that racing is bad for horses but honestly it really is just like the next discipline. It might be more common for horses having problems in racing but its just like all the other things that horses get hurt in. Like jumping horses can flip all the time and get bad back damage. Dressage.....(hmmm honestly i don't know that much about dressage lol you'll have to tell me the dangers there) uh barrel racing horses pull tendons and break legs all the time going so fast. Reining same thing. Racing if a horse falls its pretty much down hill from there. There are lots of things but yet we like to bash at one discipline take a look around its everything.


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

Jr_lover said:


> WOW!! At 1 yr old? 2 is one thing but 1!! Well yea i have to agree in some things that racing is bad for horses but honestly it really is just like the next discipline. It might be more common for horses having problems in racing but its just like all the other things that horses get hurt in. Like jumping horses can flip all the time and get bad back damage. dressage.....(hmmm honestly i don't know that much about dressage lol you'll have to tell me the dangers there) uh barrel racing horses pull tendons and break legs all the time going so fast. Reining same thing. Racing if a horse falls its pretty much down hill from there. There are lots of things but yet we like to bash at one discipline take a look around its everything.


yes youre right. every discipline has the ability to produce injuries. except dressage though as my husband says. he believes the only possible injury a horse could get from dressage would be a boredom related injury lol the issue here isnt whether or not a horse could get injured. its more what makes them become susceptible to injury to start with and the rate at which these injuries occur


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Jr_lover said:


> WOW!! At 1 yr old? 2 is one thing but 1!! Well yea i have to agree in some things that racing is bad for horses but honestly it really is just like the next discipline. It might be more common for horses having problems in racing but its just like all the other things that horses get hurt in. Like jumping horses can flip all the time and get bad back damage. dressage.....(hmmm honestly i don't know that much about dressage lol you'll have to tell me the dangers there) uh barrel racing horses pull tendons and break legs all the time going so fast. Reining same thing. Racing if a horse falls its pretty much down hill from there. There are lots of things but yet we like to bash at one discipline take a look around its everything.


Dressage, jumping, reining, and barrel racing are cupcakes compared to racing. I agree jazzyrider, I don't find racing anything but cruel.


----------



## Jr_lover (Apr 14, 2007)

yea but thats what they are bred for selective breeding has made them that way. 

And don't think i am supporting racing at all because i'm really not only stating facts. I personally don't like racing that much either. Since i don't know if you heard but they had a choice to make the tracks safer but the horses wouldn't get as much speed or faster and the horses were in more danger of getting hurt. Well they made it faster of course putting their horses in danger. 

Its true though that is all that most racers care about is the money but the point i'm trying to make is that it isn't EVERY racer.


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

> yea but thats what they are bred for selective breeding has made them that way.


Unless 'selective breeding' has made there bones and tendons steel, I see them no different from any other horse. No horse is a super horse. The more they win, the more they push. And the more they push, the weaker they become until they break.


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

^^^ i never said all were like that. i dont think lol and if i did i didnt mean it. but for me personally, i havent seen anything contrary to that.

but selective breeding doesnt help otherwise there would be less injuries rather than the number of injuries rising

anyhoo, i think the thread has gone kinda off topic lol


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> > yea but thats what they are bred for selective breeding has made them that way.
> 
> 
> Unless 'selective breeding' has made there bones and tendons steel, I see them no different from any other horse. No horse is a super horse. The more they win, the more they push. And the more they push, the weaker they become until they break.


very true!! like humans. the body can only handle so much and while horses are powerful animals, they arent made of steel as mentioned by horseluver


----------



## Jr_lover (Apr 14, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> > yea but thats what they are bred for selective breeding has made them that way.
> 
> 
> Unless 'selective breeding' has made there bones and tendons steel, I see them no different from any other horse. No horse is a super horse. The more they win, the more they push. And the more they push, the weaker they become until they break.


Obviously you don't know. Horses are picked out for selective breeding to do certain things. Thats how these horses came to be but of course not all these breeds of horses just appeared here one day :lol: 

Why else for instance do you think quarter horses have such big hind ends? To give them a powerfull back end muscle that way they could go round barrels easier for instance or um reining uses their hind end too. 

Thoroughbreds are very skinny almost looked starved at times because they are bred to be aero dynamic to run at top speeds.


----------



## Jr_lover (Apr 14, 2007)

jazzyrider said:


> ^^^ i never said all were like that. i dont think lol and if i did i didnt mean it. but for me personally, i havent seen anything contrary to that.
> 
> but selective breeding doesnt help otherwise there would be less injuries rather than the number of injuries rising
> 
> anyhoo, i think the thread has gone kinda off topic lol


i don't know if you did lol but i'm sure i read something about that in someones post maybe not. lol

And yes selective breeding does not make them have steel knees or anything like that but it does help them in growing development and handling certain things. Like i said before i don't agree with what they do with their horses including starting them early i just am stating most of these horses run certain speeds because of selective breeding not because they sit there and whip their horses like crazy.


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

> Obviously you don't know. Horses are picked out for selective breeding to do certain things. Thats how these horses came to be but of course not all these breeds of horses just appeared here one day
> 
> Why else for instance do you think quarter horses have such big hind ends? To give them a powerfull back end muscle that way they could go round barrels easier for instance or um reining uses their hind end too.
> 
> Thoroughbreds are very skinny almost looked starved at times because they are bred to be aero dynamic to run at top speeds.



So there born 16hh with all there bones locked and tons of muscle along with steel tendons? Not till there about 7. There horses. They need time to grow and learn and build up confidence.


----------



## Jr_lover (Apr 14, 2007)

horse_luver4e said:


> > Obviously you don't know. Horses are picked out for selective breeding to do certain things. Thats how these horses came to be but of course not all these breeds of horses just appeared here one day
> >
> > Why else for instance do you think quarter horses have such big hind ends? To give them a powerfull back end muscle that way they could go round barrels easier for instance or um reining uses their hind end too.
> >
> ...


yea i didn't say that they did i said they don't but slective breeding makes them able to race at those speeds. So er yea.....


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

Yes I did read and I was saying that the horses that have selective breeding do not help.


----------



## Jr_lover (Apr 14, 2007)

ok thats what you think....


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

My goodness, kaida karana! This is getting childish. I'm done posting.


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

im getting dizzy from going around in circles so much lol

lets face it. some people think its fine, others dont. this is going to be one of those threads that ends up getting locked because of the constant bickering (and yes, im a mod, but i know i have been doing my fair share of bickering too lol) lets just notch it up to differing opinions


----------



## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

Just an add-in...lol

I think training a horse that is younger than age four can cause life-long problems like a bad back and just playing bad joints. I don't know how old Blu was when he was broken but because of his past I am thinking young. And I think the people that broke him didn't believe in natural horsemanship. More like do it now! I don't think he was run like crazy. Because he likes to run! lol

I feel off subject! hehe


----------



## Jr_lover (Apr 14, 2007)

yes Jazzyrider is right and thats why i said thats what you think.

Haha :lol: blumagic that really was off topic.


----------



## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

Ya, I guess I always do that and always will! lol.

One day we will be talking about saddles and I will say something about sheep! lol hehe


----------



## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

BluMagic said:


> Ya, I guess I always do that and always will! lol.
> 
> One day we will be talking about saddles and I will say something about sheep! lol hehe


 nice one blu


----------



## BluMagic (Sep 23, 2007)

and i bet it wouldn't be the first time! lol.

Crazy me...


----------



## alucard (Dec 8, 2006)

I don't even need to post anymore on this thread! lol. Everyone's said everything that I've said already!!

BUT I would say that injuries in dressage would be more than likely mouth injuries from SOME NOT ALL people being cruel to their mouths...plus, I don't believe in 2 bits in a horses mouth, but that's just me. So don't get all defensive, I was in a bit of a fluster when I wrote the first post, so I didn't include everything, but I don't believe you that your horse does canter pirouettes with no rider and stuff till you show me a video! lol! :lol: 


(^^^For the person defending dressage on page 2 or 3)


----------



## horse_luver4e (Jul 12, 2007)

higher levels of dressage is very strenous on a horse and alot of times they get broken bones. Or pulled tendons.


----------



## apachegirl5 (Jan 11, 2008)

*i don't like this guy.*

oh yeah, this guy writes up articles on almost every horse sport in the book and finds something wrong with it. i relly don't like him.


----------



## eeo11horse (Jun 22, 2012)

I cringed the whole time I read that. Sad just sad.


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

eeo11horse said:


> I cringed the whole time I read that. Sad just sad.


You cringed why? Because you believe that garbage or because your disappointed that someone should have such an ignorant take on reining?


----------



## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

REALLY old thread!


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Sunny said:


> REALLY old thread!


Ya I know!! Someone bumped it though....and here it is!! Lol!


----------



## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Oh my ... it's a Lazarus Thread!


----------



## DimSum (Mar 28, 2012)




----------



## Kotori (Jun 18, 2012)

personally, I wonder why it's always horselover who starts threads like this...

and why in horse breeds?

everything can be bad for horses- water, hay, minerals. It's the human factors that cause the issue.

Racing- If they were started later, no issue

dressage- no hyperflexion and proper training, no issue
and so on.

the key to everything is time. I'd like to see special races for older or rescue horses of unknown breed. Then they could pick up adult horses at auctions to race. Slower, but safer


----------



## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Gotta my two cents while it lasts-- I laughed to hard when I read 'one of his horses made it to worlds' lol. That shows you the level of silly youre dealin with.

toto out.


----------



## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

He isn't for anything American it seems, and also seems to dislike women some too.

Read the rest of his articles, you can access them at bottom of the reining article.

But I'm not impressed.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Palomine said:


> He isn't for anything American it seems, and also seems to dislike women some too.
> 
> Read the rest of his articles, you can access them at bottom of the reining article.
> 
> But I'm not impressed.


How can you be impressed by a person in the Thoroughbred industry complaining about the cruelty of reining...:rofl:


----------



## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Faceman said:


> How can you be impressed by a person in the Thoroughbred industry complaining about the cruelty of reining...:rofl:


I've worked in both industries......and cracked up when I read he was a TB trainer.....those who live in glass houses and all...:shock:


----------

