# "Lopes on a loose rein"



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I didn't want to derail someone else's thread, so I thought I'd start a new one. @Kaifyre mentioned a horse that can "lope on a loose rein." From the context of her comment, it seemed like this is something that is considered desirable (at least in the Western context). Can someone explain to me why that is? And, is it difficult to get a horse to lope on a loose rein? Does this just mean the horse is more likely to act up, since it has more freedom? A horse that would NOT lope on a loose rein, does that mean it won't go, or that it will go but then act up?

I'm thinking that getting the answers to some of these questions might help me with some of my last remaining problems cantering Pony.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

English here with no real desire (or local resource!) to have her trained western. Initially no contact = anxiety for Katie who relied a lot of feeling that her rider is "present". No reins basically meant no stop and no steering (greenie). As a point she would actively get on the bit and when worried would get a bit heavy. It was so strange it was like she was asking for a hug through the reins! Loose rein meant she would giraffe terribly, she was prancing and impossible to steer at a walk! So we worked on loose rein stuff and I will never forget my first canter down the trail at old yard on the buckle! Even trotting her on a loose rein was terrifying at first because if she spooked that was it. Sadly not a thing I can do at new yard or with covid messing up visitations etc

So for me... riding an English trained horse, who's quite sensitive and anxious at times, on a loose rein meant working on both our anxieties. Learning to ride off the seat, leg and voice well enough to the point we regularly rode in the arena in just a halter on drizzly moonlit nights with no arena lighting. Which would have been a big fat no-no at the start. For me, a riding noob with not even an ounce of show experience, its about trust and being able to relax and enjoy ourselves ^.^

Cant say no much about western but I love these sorts of topics and look forward to other responses!!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

A western pleasure horse is supposed to ride on a loose rein with little to no contact. That's part of why you see western pleasure horses with "harsh" bits (higher ports and longer shanks). The horse is supposed to be trained well enough that you can control the speed and direction with your seat and legs with just a tiny bit of help from the reins. 

So when they say lopes on a loose rein they are saying that the horse will maintain the desired speed and collection with little rein contact.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

From the perspective of a western trail rider.........for whatever that's worth. :cowboy: 
To me, loping on a loose rein is desirable because it shows that the horse is relaxed and can be trusted. It is normally the desire of western riders to be able to ride on a loose rein at all gaits. It's not that contact is bad, but if a horse lopes on a nice loose rein, he is probably relaxed and well trained. If a western trained horse NEEDS contact at a lope (or any gait, really) it _might_ mean he is high strung or not trustworthy. Or it could just mean he's fresh and wants to go. That's just from my perspective, of course.

I had a spooky youngster, which I eventually rehomed, but I still rode him on a loose rein pretty much all the time, if I could. I did tend to ride with contact at the "trot" because he was a fox trotter and I was working on his fox trot, but nearly always at a walk or even lope, loose rein was what we did. 

Maybe it's because I'm not an advanced rider, but I don't see a big difference in spooking on a loose rein vs. contact. Pretty much by the time the horse does a time warp, I am already facing 180 degrees in the other direction anyway. 

Western trained horses are used to going on a loose rein. I understand that English trained horses probably would not be. It probably has to do with the fact that western horses neck rein and english horses don't (generally speaking). 

I did get a trail horse one time, ridden western by previous owners, that walked like a drunken sailor when I rode him on a loose rein, even at a walk. So the previous owners probably rode him with contact. Once we got to know each other he would walk a straight line (or follow the trail) on a loose rein.


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

My horse will lope on a loose rein, which to me means I put him in a canter and he just goes at the speed we choose without me touching his face. I can just let the reins go and he stays in the lope. 

My last horse (RIP <3) would speed up and/or duck corners if I threw away the reins at, well, any gait lol. I'm not a very disciplined horse person, so the fact that my current horse will do it is all him, not my doing. He's just a super easygoing guy who is happy to do what I ask. For most people, riding on a loose rein likely means your horse is very tuned in to your seat and legs.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

"Lopes on a loose rein" and "Canters on the buckle" are pretty much the same if that makes sense.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

farmpony84 said:


> "Lopes on a loose rein" and "Canters on the buckle" are pretty much the same if that makes sense.


Yes, that does make a lot of sense. I guess what I'm wondering now is, what is the alternative? A horse that doesn't canter on the buckle, when asked to canter on a loose rein, does what? I guess it's what @SammysMom said.

Part of why I asked is, I just realized in my last lesson that Pony needs a lot of contact in the canter, or he ducks out and then gets really really wiggly, or even thinks about doing a mini-buck, all of which of course is quite disconcerting. I guess he is not one of those who can be cantered on a loose rein, at least not at this point. I'm still not quite understanding why that would be -- why does he need that much contact in order to go where I want? At the walk and trot, he has no problems. Also, should cantering him on the buckle / loping on a loose rein be a goal? Do I care? I guess at this point I just need to get him going good with close contact, and then we can see.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Being able to not "need" your reins or the contact frees you up to open and close gates, rope cattle, carry things, drag things, etc. It's really a true cowboy thing. The people that use horses for daily ranch use need really versatile well trained horses. The western pleasure was based on that at one time but now it's its own monster....

So this is me totally goofing off. I was at my lesson and there was a girl doing liberty and she was cantering poles with no bridle so I went home and gave it a shot. It's sloppy but I did it!


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

@farmpony84 that's awesome. I'd like to get there with Pony some day. I can open gates off him, pony off him, pick up and drop off stuff, steer him with just one hand, ride him in just a halter and lead rope. I ride him bareback all the time, including at the canter. But cantering on a loose rein, let alone with no rein, is quite a ways off, LOL.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

For working cattle, I need a horse to work of seat and legs, as mentioned upthread. My hands might get busy with a rope. Also riding for several hours... I suspect both horse and rider might tire of contact. 6-16 hours, though a sixteen hour day is not common.

I insist anyone that rides with me do use a bridle with a bit, or a bosal (and I know they know how to use it), or a mechanical hackamore, though. 

Sometimes cattle get obstinate and a rider needs to get themself and their horse out of the way, or help another rider, in a matter of seconds. 

In those cases there can be no discussion or hesitation, only action. Reins get shortened. Wrecks avoided. Then we figure it what went wrong.


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## SammysMom (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't think it's a huge deal @ACinATX, certainly nothing to be concerned about. In my experience, there are two general groups of riders who strive for a canter on a loose rein:

A) people who want to demonstrate in a show ring or just to themselves that they and their horses are skilled and very in tune with one another. My trainer strives for this with her own horses because she's into dressage and working equitation, and she has varying degrees of it with her horses. Some she can ride bridleless, others require a bit of contact, but she's always working to get there eventually with them.

B) And then there are people like me who want it because it makes us feel safe. The fact that Cash will stay in a lope without rein contributes to my overall feeling that he's with me and I don't have anything to worry about because he doesn't take any of the opportunities I give him to do his own thing. Along with other things in his personality, his willingness to chill at an easy lope gives me the confidence to ride him on the beach, in the woods, in new places, etc., and not be afraid that his mind is going to leave me.

So while I think it's a cool thing to have and ultimately shows off a great connection, it's more important to some of us than others. Many of my friends don't worry about it either way because if their horses _do_ need contact, they still don't feel unsafe. It's not a big deal to them. Unless you're part of group A or B, I don't really see any reason to make it a priority.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

"Loping on a loose rein" comes from the US West Coast tradition of horsemanship where a horse would eventually be "straight up in the bridle", meaning they use a Spade bit. The spade bit is a signal bit, it is not designed for or meant to be used with constant contact, or really much of any contact at all and is traditionally used with Romel Reins and connecting chains which are fairly delicate (and expensive). 

Other than that the idea is that a horse is low headed, willingly guided and listening to the subtle cues of the rider. It is a demonstration of how good the horse is. How little it takes and how well they can do it. Modern horses will typically show in a snaffle or shank bit because there just isn't enough time in limited age events like futurities to properly train a spade bit horse. 

In the old days riders would pull stunts like using light string or fishing line to attach the reins to the bit to sort of show off on how light the horse is. Sheila Varian is rumored to have actually done that the year she became the first female Cow Horse champion. Along with big sliding stops the low headed relaxed movement of the horse is a signature of these sports.

This is the tradition where Western sports like Reining and Reined Cow Horse came from. Because these are basically the highest level of western horsemanship all others followed their lead in some form. 

As for modern competition, this is what loping on a loose rein is supposed to look like in Reining.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

@jgnmoose - I had a boss that made me ride bridle horses with nothing but tail hair between reins and bit, in corrals, for a couple sessions, before he let me do real work outside with them. 

Sure made me think about my cues.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Double post, please delete.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Is the horse supposed to go with its head way down like that? It looks a bit like a scolded dog.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Since I train my horses to be ridden on a loose rein, this means teaching them that they must control their own speed at any gait. Here's what I mean by that: I will ask a horse for a gait (let's use the lope for example). Once he's loping, I take my legs off. They don't come back on unless I want him to speed up or collect. My reins, of course, were off to begin with, so they won't come into effect unless the horse starts getting too fast and doesn't slow when I ask him with my seat. It's my horse's job to rate himself once I tell him what speed I want. This means I want him to rock back and use his butt going downhill, without building speed until he's steamrolling down the hill at maximum warp. Of course, no horse knows this in the beginning, so when I'm breaking colts or retraining older horses there's a lot of rein work going on in any given ride. But a finished horse or close to finished horse will do this by himself, without me having to ask. 

It's not just speed though. I also like a horse to travel in a straight line, unless I am actively asking him to turn. If he turns when I look hard (I don't know how else to describe this … I look very intently in the direction I want to turn and something in my body language must cue the horse because after a while I can turn a horse without ever even using leg pressure, if I train them to turn when I look hard) or if I follow up with leg, I'll never touch the reins. For collection, again in the beginning I will use reins and leg to ask the horse to collect, but after a while I can ask with legs only. I don't ask my horse to travel collected all the time though, or even most of the time - collection for us is something I ask for for a few strides or once around the arena or until we finish this circle or whatever, and then turn the horse loose again. On a trail I will generally collect a horse going downhill, to get them to rock back on their hind end, and maybe I'll collect them for a few strides to 'check in' while we're strolling down the trail, but otherwise I let the horse travel how he wants. I don't care where his head is, or what he's doing with himself - as long as he does what I ask, he can move however is most comfortable for him. 

On an ideal ride, I'll never touch my horse's mouth. To me, constantly having to maintain contact is irritating. I don't like constantly having to mollycoddle my horse and tell him how to trot a straight line, or incessantly keep slowing him down, or have to keep pulling his head up from the grass. My horses are responsible for their bodies while we ride. I'm not going to hold his head up, I'm not going to nag at him to slow down, and I'm not going to tell him where to put each individual step. I will ask him to trot over there - if he goes too fast or too slow, or meanders, I'll correct him. But otherwise, you're on your own, guy. But this is something I have trained into my horses from Day 1 - I'll handle the Big Stuff. You do the rest. I want my horse to eventually be my partner, and that means he'll have to pick up some slack every now and then on our rides. 

So for me, being able to do anything on a loose rein is a convenience thing. I can take pictures or videos while I'm riding, or have a snack or a drink, or scratch an itch, or mime the YMCA if I want - and I can trust my horse to keep doing what I ask, with no issues. I want my horse to wait for me, to want to work with me, and nothing proves that more than riding anywhere, at any speed, on a completely loose rein. Or riding with no reins at all. Bridleless riding isn't for everyone, but there's nothing like having a good gallop in the wide open spaces with nothing on your horse's face, and having him come back to you when you ask. Best feeling in the world. But while I really think riding on a loose rein is a prerequisite for western riding, especially while working, for English folks it's not really necessary. 

-- Kai


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> Is the horse supposed to go with its head way down like that? It looks a bit like a scolded dog.


But sure why it's like that, either. The video does show that contact through reins isn't always necessary in order to affect direction.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

My mare used to stop dead when I released contact so I worked on that a little. She is mainly English trained. I don’t particularly need her to canter on a loose rein, it was just something fun to work on. Now she can trot and canter on loose reins. But I am still working on her not stopping dead if I suddenly drop the reins, I still have to release them slowly. Mind you, maybe I should leave it as is - it a rather handy emergency break.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Horsef said:


> My mare used to stop dead when I released contact so I worked on that a little. She is mainly English trained. I don’t particularly need her to canter on a loose rein, it was just something fun to work on. Now she can trot and canter on loose reins. But I am still working on her not stopping dead if I suddenly drop the reins, I still have to release them slowly. Mind you, maybe I should leave it as is - it a rather handy emergency break.


My Pony is generally the same way. If something strange happens, or if you give him strongly conflicting signals, or change your weight distribution significantly, he just stops. Sometimes it's annoying, like when I'm trying to move my legs or seat around to find the best position, but on the other hand it does seem like a nice safety feature. I let a fairly inexperienced child ride him a few weeks ago, and I was really happy that he did that with her.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

To understand the idea of working on a loose rein, we might think of people in a work situation.

After initial training some people are able to work quite well on their own with little supervision. Others require closer supervision and communication to keep them working productively. Of course, different means of communication may be employed. Speaking directly to a working (i.e. using reins) is one method. A supervisor may also use his hands, facial expression, or other means to convey a message to his worker.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> Is the horse supposed to go with its head way down like that? It looks a bit like a scolded dog.


That is something I'm critical of with this particular horse as well in addition to the short steps in the slow lope. 

Have watched Andrea ride at least 50 futurity finals horses and would say he doesn't train them to do that. Some people like it, but I personally just like to see them carry their neck more or less level with their top line and look relaxed. 

Same trainer on a different horse


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Gotta admit reining does nothing for me. In particular, that rider was leaning back and doing a lot of bouncing at the canter. As much as I like having my heels forward for some things, heels forward while leaning back at a canter is doing the horse no favors. There was some flopping rein going on too, which is different from riding with some slack. IMHO.

Nor do I understand why they put emphasis on a level neck - or lower. Folks have worked a lot of cattle over the years without having a horse with his ears below the withers. It is now something people breed horses for and their conformation can drive it. They will do naturally what would require abuse to get it from Bandit.

That aside...lopes (or canters) on a loose rein means to me that the horse is not going to get excited and speed up without being asked. Bandit can usually do it in an arena. On the trail, it depends. Bored or a bit tired? Yes. Another horse there - his previous life involved racing - or already amped up? Nope.

It also depends on how much value one places on control. Is the horse allowed to speed up, slow down or change gaits without being asked? I think most riders say "_Heck no! Not if he is well trained!_" I'm more inclined to say, "_That works for me too!_" Particularly when we are out alone. If he has some energy to burn and wants to canter, it is a great time to work on my canter skills. If he offers a big trot instead...well, that's fun too! And a lot of our "speed" work is in a wash, with deep sand alternating with rocks, so if he wants to slow...maybe he has a reason.

FWIW, Bandit seems to like more contact than I prefer. He is more relaxed and more eager to go forward with some contact, which can still happen with a bit of slack in the reins. Some feel with the mouth happens prior to getting all the slack out.

Of course, if one is trying to show off the horse in an arena, then a very obedient horse responding to subtle signals is often the goal of the ride. Done right, it is a thing of beauty. It can be done wrong as well, but that is a problem any time horses and humans mix.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I have to agree with @bsms on this one. I don't like the way they carry their heads or even the movement. They look broken to me and I'm a fan of reining.... I think it's really cool to watch but these two rides look weird to me. Pretty horses though.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

From my perspective, whatever that's worth... I teach all horses to w/t/c on a loose rein, before teaching them to go with 'contact'. Tho I've had (& have one now) horses who, due to previous training, get anxious when there is no 'contact'. Or they take it as 'free rein' to do as they like. If a horse will not go on a loose rein, I take that to mean something's not right, not solid, missing...

BUT due to their previous experiences, I too have had horses who 'lose it' over a loose rein - eg. they don't just see what they can get away with or such, but they get anxious, worried. In that situation, just like other training, little by little is the key to changing their association/attitude about it, so they can relax & be confident under saddle, no matter how the reins are 'kept'.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

@tinyliny I think that when you have any discipline that mimics the work rather than actually doing it in order to merely show the maneuvers that the horse can do, leaves it wide open for mans imagination. That is when things change After a time, it hardly resembles the original intent.

The above videos hardly look like this





Quite a bit of FEI Grand Prix Dressage hardly looks like this





I do think that some of the riding in the second video is a bit harsh


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

@LoriF those cow horses in the first video are unreal. They look like a completely different species to the horses I see every day. Amazing focus, athleticism and work ethic.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

@bsms You will enjoy the first video, not a heel down or leg under the hip in sight and yet amazing and very effective riding.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

@Horsef, when I first genuinely started riding (at 50), my mare was a spook monster. Most of the advice I got on riding, from local instructors or on the Net, was to keep shoulder / hip / heel in a vertical line. But that so obviously was NOT working when Mia would react. It was a cutting video that got me to try combining the advice from Littauer on what most people consider a jumping position and what cutters did when their horses crouched or spun. After all, Mia's spooks looked a lot like a good cutting horse moving...and it worked.

That was when I started to realize that there is a dressage seat (central balance), a forward seat (forward balance) and a defensive seat (weight well behind the stirrups). Then I finally started to understand what Littauer wrote about riding being balance in motion. I eventually concluded that all three approaches to riding had value and now find myself using all three during my daily rides. Often all three within a 5 minute period. 



> "At first when learning how to ride you must think about your position all the time, and in this period of your learning your picture matters a great deal. But later, when the contour of your position is correct when your spring, grip, balance, etc. are working effectively then there are only two criteria of your position; *a) are you in fluid balance and rhythm with your horse or not? b) does your seat enable you to control your horse efficiently?*" - Common Sense Horsemanship by VS Littauer


FWIW, I think all horses should eventually learn BOTH to spend lots of time on a loose rein AND to accept contact. Like riding position, there are times and situations where both are as useful to the horse as to the rider. Bandit had been raced using a bosal with a bit as an emergency brake. It was quite a surprise when I first trotted him and then asked him to slow using the bit. He slammed on the brakes like his life depended on it. He also raised his head high and my face got buried in his mane! So one of the first things we worked on was accepting the bit. 

Not in the sense a lot of people use it when talking about teaching a horse to "seek contact". I disagree with how they go about it. But he needed to understand that I could take the slack out without causing him pain, and then learn I could use the bit to ASK him for things. Eventually that I could use the bit to ADVISE him on options that we were discussing.

Seems to me good riding includes both loose reins and contact. Like the various positions, I alternate back and forth on every ride. I'd hate to be limited to either / or.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

@bsms fair enough points, but he is a 5 million dollar rider and neither of us are. So let's acknowledge that he must be pretty good at his job which is winning lots of money for his clients in competitive shows. 

I think what you are referring to is the flying lead changes, which there are several of in the video. There are also some tight rollbacks which are a +/- deal and he nailed them. Remember that these are young horses, in this case a 3 year old stallion, and not getting the lead change at the correct spot is a point loss and potentially a zero score for being off pattern. $150,000 horse owned by a famous horseman, $5,000 in nomination and entry fees, everyone watching a famous trainer/rider riding a highly anticipated son of Gunner... Yeah I'm going to do exaggerated cues too if it means a + on all maneuvers and winning a check. 

This is what people who don't show don't understand about showing. That's fine, and I'm not mad about it, but just have to point it out. We aren't talking about 16 year old Dressage geldings, it is a 3 year old stallion with a little over a year of riding. 

On a typical modern Quarter Horse the head and neck will be roughly level with the top line when they are relaxed. This is not true of all horses, or all blood lines. It tends to be true of well bred performance blood lines of Quarter Horses, it is just their natural headset. Here is a video of Metallic Cat in Cutting. 






I don't mind at all that some people don't care for Reining. At the same time I also know not many people can do it well either. As for the videos it is just an example of what a loose rein looks like, and a comment on where it came from.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

@jgnmoose thanks for posting that video, it was really interesting. Really good-looking horse, too. I have two questions about it, though.

1. What were those noises throughout? Was it people? Why would they make that sound?
2. What is the point of having a rider? I mean, really. That horse, it seems like he knows what he's doing and doesn't need anyone telling him how to do it.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

ACinATX said:


> @jgnmoose thanks for posting that video, it was really interesting. Really good-looking horse, too. I have two questions about it, though.
> 
> 1. What were those noises throughout? Was it people? Why would they make that sound?
> 2. What is the point of having a rider? I mean, really. That horse, it seems like he knows what he's doing and doesn't need anyone telling him how to do it.


Here's a video of a horse with a lot of cow sense, doing cutting without a rider, and caring himself in a natural manner.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

ACinATX said:


> @jgnmoose thanks for posting that video, it was really interesting. Really good-looking horse, too. I have two questions about it, though.
> 
> 1. What were those noises throughout? Was it people? Why would they make that sound?
> 2. What is the point of having a rider? I mean, really. That horse, it seems like he knows what he's doing and doesn't need anyone telling him how to do it.


Haha good question about those noises. I don't know why they do that. Probably a combination of something to do and it being too quiet without them. Personally I have never yipped or yeeeed. The Reined Cow Horse people go over the top with it.






In Reining the horse isn't supposed to do anything they aren't told to. If you are supposed to go slow and the horse goes fast, that is a zero score for going off pattern. That it looks like they are doing the pattern without any trouble is what you want it to look like but is not what is happening. 

The hardest parts to do well are the run downs and the circles. Circles because they have to be actual circles and most horses will lean in or push out a little throughout the entire thing. Run downs because the horses start to know what is coming and get excited. The run down is supposed to be a gradual build up to speed and then a stop. Teaching a horse to keep going fast and wait for the stop cue is usually pretty difficult. 

Spins and rollbacks look cool but are not terribly difficult for most horses to learn. Lead changes too, although I've come across a few that needed a lot of work to get it and one that kicked out so bad he'll never be competitive probably. Ideally it is so smooth that it isn't really noticeable anything happened, other than being in a different lead of course. 

Reining is basically a sport about making technically challenging things look pretty easy and boring lol.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

jgnmoose said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnEiCxwytUU





ACinATX said:


> @*jgnmoose* thanks for posting that video, it was really interesting. Really good-looking horse, too. I have two questions about it, though.
> 
> 1. What were those noises throughout? Was it people? Why would they make that sound?





Holy cow..........they sound just like cow elk! They could get side jobs during hunting season!


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

@jgnmoose I presume that in real life the rider tells the horse which cow to isolate and where to take it. I am presuming this is done to take cows away from the herd for a practical reason like vet care, not for the fun of it.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Are they told which cow to go after in these competitions or do they just choose a random one?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^If it's like Aussie 'camp drafting', the rider is told which to cut, or there are a few marked to choose from. 

And yeah, Trailhorse, holy cow - never knew elk made that noise. The comp noises sounded to me like the weird noises many elite tennis players seem to feel the need for, whenever they make a shot!


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Horsef said:


> @jgnmoose I presume that in real life the rider tells the horse which cow to isolate and where to take it. I am presuming this is done to take cows away from the herd for a practical reason like vet care, not for the fun of it.


I will see what @jgnmoose says, but I think this originated in having to brand the cattle, and that's why they are often (or always?) working calves. So, once a year you'd bring all your new cattle into the corral, then you'd have to get them separated one by one so you could brand them (and, yes, presumably give them any vet work they needed).

What I wonder is, these horses that do this work in an arena, do any of them actually do real work on ranches as well, or is the skill only for show purposes?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

It certainly started as a competition between working horses/cowboys, like other rodeo type events, but I'm sure there are many that only do the competition these days.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

When I have more time I'll come back...so quickly:

Loose rein...
Loping or doing anything on a loose reins from teaching a horse accountability for working cattle You don't want a mechanical robot. You guide the instinct not baby sit it.


In cutting, you get choose your cattle to work That's a good portion of the battle. You need to be able to read and pick cattle during your run that will best showcase your horse. Also knowing when to quit your cow and go back to the herd and cut a new one. 

Whistling, hooping and hollering during a run...
It is to show excitement but it also has meanings. A lot of trainers have their own whistles, wrong lead, speed up, slow down, etc. Coaching from the stands sort of speak.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Horsef said:


> @jgnmoose I presume that in real life the rider tells the horse which cow to isolate and where to take it. I am presuming this is done to take cows away from the herd for a practical reason like vet care, not for the fun of it.





ACinATX said:


> I will see what @jgnmoose says, but I think this originated in having to brand the cattle, and that's why they are often (or always?) working calves. So, once a year you'd bring all your new cattle into the corral, then you'd have to get them separated one by one so you could brand them (and, yes, presumably give them any vet work they needed).
> 
> What I wonder is, these horses that do this work in an arena, do any of them actually do real work on ranches as well, or is the skill only for show purposes?


Correct, it originated in sorting cattle for any reason you would need to pick specific cattle out of a herd and do something with them like load them on a truck for example. In the branding pen calves are usually roped because if you have good ropers it is much faster. 

Cutting as in the sport is basically just that meaning if they are a Cutting horse they pretty much do it in an arena. Like Reining and Reined Cow Horse the big money is in the 3 and 4 year olds. At the end of the day, what drives these sports is winning the futurity. Winning it basically turns that horse into a profitable breeding business for the owners, especially true of stallions. For example the horse I linked is named Metallic Cat and his stud fee is $15,000. 

Unfortunately that also makes these sports prohibitively expensive for average people at the competitive level. 

There is a market for "cutters who don't make the cut", and some of hoses do get used in ranching. They are naturally gifted at working cattle and popular with people who need a young working horse that is already trained. I would still rather have a seasoned horse off one of the better ranches like the Wagoner personally though, but that is off topic. 

As for what they are doing, the rider's most important job is to know cattle well enough to pick out a cow that is going to be a good match for the horse. There are also rules about having to go into the herd to cut them, you can't just pick ones off the outside. You don't want a boring dud, or one that is going to do crazy stuff, neither will give much of a score. There is basically no score for the person, it is all how well the horse works and the horse should work the cow as much as possible by themselves once the cow has been cut out of the herd.

They change out the cattle after so many runs to give competitors a fair chance. Each time they do someone rides through and around them to settle them down and get them used to a horse being near them. Cattle get dull or sour to being worked fairly quickly so they have to do this and it's another reason Cutting is expensive. 

It would be a much different sport if the cattle were picked for you and the rider's job was to take them some place. In that regard events like Team Penning and Camp Drafting are more realistic to ranch work in my opinion.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

When I rode for Bill Hunter in high school, he told me there are two types of cattle - movers and shakers. The movers will try to sneak by you on the outsides, so will get a bit of running in as they try to circle you. The shakers are the ones that hunker down and do 3, 4, 5 quick rollbacks in a row as they try to bamboozle your horse into falling behind. Ideally, you want at least one of each during your run, to showcase your horse's ability to handle either type. A good cutting horse is "a mover and a shaker" meaning he can keep up with whatever the cow throws at him. 

I'm adamantly against cutting horse futurities where 2 year olds are expected to cut … that is too much for young bodies in my opinion. But I really really love the sport of cutting as a whole, the idea of it, and riding a good cutting horse is definitely an experience everyone should have at least once. There is something supremely awesome in dropping that rein hand down on your horse's mane and telling him "Okay dude, it's all you now" and feeling him really MOVE to get after that cow, all on his own, because he wants to. I just love it when they get pinny eared and stare down that cow like they're gonna eat it alive if they get half a chance. Mm, baby. That's some sexy stuff, right there. In my opinion there isn't another sport in the horse world where the rider gives over complete control to the horse like that, where the horse becomes the 'brain' so to speak and the rider becomes, for all intents and purposes, an ornament. 

-- Kai


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

Kaifyre said:


> When I rode for Bill Hunter in high school, he told me there are two types of cattle - movers and shakers. The movers will try to sneak by you on the outsides, so will get a bit of running in as they try to circle you. The shakers are the ones that hunker down and do 3, 4, 5 quick rollbacks in a row as they try to bamboozle your horse into falling behind. Ideally, you want at least one of each during your run, to showcase your horse's ability to handle either type. A good cutting horse is "a mover and a shaker" meaning he can keep up with whatever the cow throws at him.
> 
> I'm adamantly against cutting horse futurities where 2 year olds are expected to cut … that is too much for young bodies in my opinion. But I really really love the sport of cutting as a whole, the idea of it, and riding a good cutting horse is definitely an experience everyone should have at least once. There is something supremely awesome in dropping that rein hand down on your horse's mane and telling him "Okay dude, it's all you now" and feeling him really MOVE to get after that cow, all on his own, because he wants to. I just love it when they get pinny eared and stare down that cow like they're gonna eat it alive if they get half a chance. Mm, baby. That's some sexy stuff, right there. In my opinion there isn't another sport in the horse world where the rider gives over complete control to the horse like that, where the horse becomes the 'brain' so to speak and the rider becomes, for all intents and purposes, an ornament.
> 
> -- Kai


You know, you helped me figure out what’s different about them - they move like a predator.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

It is super aggressive isn't it? It's weird about cutting, too - if you teach a horse that he can control a cow, that he can put it exactly where he wants it, for some reason horses really like doing just that. I've seen cutting horses given time off cut a big ball, or the neighbor's dog, or small children if they can't cut cattle. Strangely, I've never seen a horse try to cut another horse lol … just other things. 

-- Kai


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Kaifyre said:


> . I just love it when they get pinny eared and stare down that cow like they're gonna eat it alive if they get half a chance. Mm, baby. That's some sexy stuff, right there. In my opinion there isn't another sport in the horse world where the rider gives over complete control to the horse like that, where the horse becomes the 'brain' so to speak and the rider becomes, for all intents and purposes, an ornament.
> -- Kai


I worry about their joints, but... yeah... I love to see a horse getting pinny eared at those cattle -- it makes it seem like they really love their job. I say this because my Pony used to live out with a herd of cattle, and he just loving bossing them around, even the bull, and especially when they tried to boss his friends. He'd get all pinny eared like that, snake his head, and run them off, then trot around like he was super proud of himself.

One of these days we will make it to that cattle penning class, and it may be that he discovers a new vocation after that LOL.


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