# Lets talk about pinto genetics :)



## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

weefoal said:


> Frame or Lethal white---Again this is not a "disease" The frame or LW gene produces wild colored frame overo horses. But the horse is always carring other pinto genes at the same time. As long as you do not breed Frame to Frame there is no cause for concern. Frame causes blue eyes.


I would like to add the chances of producing a LWO foal is not limited to breeding a visible frame/frame overo. LWO is genetic linked to the Frame gene so even a horse that is a solid color and displays no Paint markings can be a carrier of the LWO gene. 
I know where you are coming from but there are many out there who might think as long as they didn't breed two visible frame overos there would be no need to worry then out pops a lethal white. 
The safest way to avoid it would be to test any mare or stallion with paint or pinto lineage for the gene.
My boy as in my pic is Tovero (per APHA)his sire is Tovero his mom Overo.....
I have no idea if they were tested or not, it would appear at least that one does not carry the gene or I probably wouldn't have my wonderful boy however if I ever do decide to use him for breeding, he will be tested.


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

I absolutely agree. Frame hides! You have to test for it to be sure. Since I have a LW negative stallion I dont have to test the mares hes bred to because it wouldnt matter if the mares are positive or not. 

I would doubt that your guy carries frame but it is possible. He is for sure splashed white with tobiano. 

My splash mare above will be tested for LW just because I am curious. I dont think she is but again you cant know for sure unless you test. She is bred to my LW negative stallion


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## JsJ204 (Mar 18, 2009)

What do you think my mares genetics consist of? She's got two blue eyes, black eyeliner, white eyelashes, medicine hat, shield, "ghost" markings around all of her black. Black forelock, white mane, black tail, white legs with a 50 cent sized black dot on the front cannon bones in the exact center of three legs. Hmm... Theres a picture of her in my "barn" thing... (new to this forum, haha)


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

Jade is a beautiful mare! Can I have her? 

She is tobiano, splash white, probably sabino and possibly frame. I would definitely test her for frame if breeding to another Overo. While she kept her chest shield see how high up her leg whites go?? Splash probablly caused that. 

Are both her parents Tobiano? She does have some markings that would lead one to suspect she is homozygous for Tobiano. 

Now some call those "mustaches" a frame trait but I have not found that to be true. I have tested mares with those mustaches that came back negative for frame but putting that out there because it is something that you read about.


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## JsJ204 (Mar 18, 2009)

Her daddy is a Tovero, Momma is a solid bey AQHA. Her lines aren't that good but here's her pedigree that shows colors- Mystic Request Paint her first and only baby came out mostly black but very "dirty" looking because of the.... undefined lines between the black and white, Hard for me to explain. Ill try to find a picture of her.


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

Ooo! This is really interesting. I'm a nerd for horse genetics ^^

Out of curiousity, what would you say Loki is? Sire is a black/white Tobiano with a band running along his markings. Dam is a minimally expressed Sabino with roaning. 

Loki's over in my barn. He's certainly got some funky spotting going on xD
He's got stockings, bald face blaze, roaning all over, ink spots...the list goes on and on O_O


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## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

I see sabino written all over Loki lol he's gorgeous btw


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

I love color genetics too. Solid, dilute, pinto its all fascinating to me 

Your guy for sure is probably carrying sabino 2 gene. The white lower lip suggests splash. 

But I suspect he could be tobiano too but its hard to tell because sabino roaned everything out. 

People think splash is rare but its really not rare at all


Kay


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

JsJ204 said:


> What do you think my mares genetics consist of? She's got two blue eyes, black eyeliner, white eyelashes, medicine hat, shield, "ghost" markings around all of her black. Black forelock, white mane, black tail, white legs with a 50 cent sized black dot on the front cannon bones in the exact center of three legs. Hmm... Theres a picture of her in my "barn" thing... (new to this forum, haha)


She's precious!!! She is Tovero just like her daddy!

Here is the APHA definition of Tovero:

*Tovero
*_(pronounced: tow vair' oh)_ 
Dark pigmentation around the ears, which may expand to cover the forehead and/or eyes. 

One or both eyes blue. 

Dark pigmentation around the mouth, which may extend up the sides of the face and form spots. 

Chest spot(s) in varying sizes. These may also extend up the neck.

Flank spot(s) ranging in size. These are often accompanied by smaller spots that extend forward across the barrel, and up over the loin. 

Spots, varying in size, at the base of the tail.


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## LauraB (Nov 11, 2008)

This is my mom's overo mini mare. She carries the frame and splash gene.









These two are full siblings but you would never know it by their markings.


















They are the result of a tovero stallion bred to a solid mare.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

All these mini horses are darling!!! Can kids ride them?


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## LauraB (Nov 11, 2008)

I would never allow kids to ride ours. A mini is too small to be properly broken out by an adult which to me means that it is not trained enough for a child to ride it. All three of ours are trained to drive and we have tons of fun in the cart!


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

Yes I guess I didn't think of that. They are so tiny tho! hahaha Very nice!

Ok back on topic


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Shawneen said:


> *Tovero
> *_(pronounced: tow vair' oh)_
> Dark pigmentation around the ears, which may expand to cover the forehead and/or eyes.
> 
> One or both eyes blue.


Interesting... My mare is Tovero by registration, but she has very dark eyes. 

I've been always confused with the spots on back. If most of back white, but there are couple dark spots on top, is it considered to be overo or tobiano? And vs (mostly dark with couple white spots)?


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

Miniatures can be safely ridden by small children. An avg 32" mini can carry 75 lbs but that includes the weight of the saddle. Most of our minis are B divsion so they are taller and can handle more weight. 

Okay Im probably going to get flamed and I have been trying to hold my tongue but the Apha site on color is soooo outdated. Its kinda of a joke in the industry to people who study color. I just think APHA has never updated it as things changed over the years. Hopefully they will get around to that. 

Most people who are really into color genetics hate the term "tovero" because so many misuse it and it really only says that the horse is overo plus tobiano. But which overo gene?? So most do Frame plus Tobiano for example


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

I will agree with you about being outdated weefoal. However, those of us who are really into paints only have the 4 categories, as vague as they may be, to choose from. That would be interesting if they would get into that though, more detailed color genetics. That would probably entail bloodwork done with every registration though, which could be good and bad IMO. No flamage weefoal, I enjoy getting educated 




kitten_Val said:


> Interesting... My mare is Tovero by registration, but she has very dark eyes.
> 
> I've been always confused with the spots on back. If most of back white, but there are couple dark spots on top, is it considered to be overo or tobiano? And vs (mostly dark with couple white spots)?


All the characteristics listed don't have to be present. Overo will not have any white that crosses over the back at all between the withers and the tail. In the mane and tail is ok. From looking at your horse, it is most definately a tovero just from seeing the white back(tobiano), "medicine hat" (dark ears), and bald face(overo). She is very cute btw  I love paints! 
As for the specific genetics, I will leave that to weefoal


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

There is still a lot of good info on there for sure. 

The really suprising thing is they still use the term "cropout" when its known now that there is no such thing as a cropout. But its funny because some pages say that and some dont LOL

And I wish they would update the sabino page since much more is now known and it can be tested for now. 

But hey at least they have the good info on there too


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Shawneen said:


> From looking at your horse, it is most definately a tovero just from seeing the white back(tobiano), "medicine hat" (dark ears), and bald face(overo). She is very cute btw  I love paints!


Thank you, Shawneen!  

And thanks for explaining! It's been always very confusing. In my understanding often people just misuse (or don't know) the definitions. I heard from 2 different people that the same horse is "overo" from one person and "tobiano" from another. Both were local paint breeders. :?


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

Hahaha, yeah a lot of times people don't use the right terms. I don't like to correct people very often because I hate coming across as a know-it-all. I LOVE black and white paints and often look at the online horse sale sites. The most common things I see that crack me up are: "black & white" (when it's obviously BROWN), "medicine hat" paint (that is tovero usually), "tri-color" paint (tobiano), "stands 15.4h" (or something similar 15.5, 15.6 etc). Now I'm not trying to knock anyone, just if you are going to own/sell a registered horse, wouldn't you try to know something about it, or at least seem like you do?
weefoal has given me some education here on the types of color "pattern" genes. I know about lethal white and sabino, but she is obviously quite knowledgeable about the specifics. I have studied color genes for breeding purposes for a long time to target specific coat colors (I don't care much for red horses). So basically the point is - those people irk me that will just throw some data at you without really looking into it. And you said they were breeders to boot.... *sigh*


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

weefoal I just saw your post also. I remember that term "cropout" from back in the day... like around the time we had my gelding. That was like 17 years ago! I guess I haven't heard anyone mention it in a long time and just altogether forgot about it... LOL it does seem kind of silly to still have that up there. Did they stop using that term when the other registries started accepting Paints to be registered with them?


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

Once testing became available to test for tobiano, frame etc it was known that there were no "cropouts" so yes a lot of years! Just minimally marked pintos and overos that people mistook for solids. So its really funny to me when I still see that on websites or people post that they have a "cropout" 

I have also heard people use it regarding appies but again appy doesnt skip a generation so no cropouts. Just minimally marked horses


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## close2prfct (Mar 9, 2009)

I think people use a color or pattern and refer to it as a breed the same goes with palomino or buckskin. In order for it to be a breed it would have to breed true. Both do not breeding palomino/palomino does not guarantee a palomino same goes with paint markings. A medicine hat is a common marking found in Toveros but not all of them will have it, my boy does although you can barely see it on most days all that mane hair between his ears hides it. The same goes with the blue eyes. Not all will have them and I'm not sure I believe it's the Frame Overo gene also that is linked to the blue eyes weefoal can correct me on that if I am wrong.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

That's an interesting question. I know only overos will have blue eyes, but which gene causes them? I was trying to read about it just now and it only mentions blue eyes in the overo category:
Overo: A group of spotting patterns characterized by sharp, irregular markings with a horizontal orientation, usually more dark than white, though the face is usually white, *sometimes with blue eyes*. The white rarely crosses the back, and the lower legs are normally dark. The APHA recognizes three overo patterns: 

and then in the spalsh sub-category:
Splashed white: The least common spotting pattern, *splashed whites typically have blue eyes* and crisp, smooth, blocky white markings that almost always include the head and legs. The tail is often white or white-tipped, and body markings originate under the belly and extend "upwards". 

It doesn't mention anything about blue eyes in frame or sabino. 
So educate me weefoal LOL


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Shawneen said:


> That's an interesting question. I know only overos will have blue eyes, but which gene causes them? I was trying to read about it just now and it only mentions blue eyes in the overo category...


BTW, you never see mention of blue eyes in tobianos either, but they can...see our Paint mare "Angel", who has two blue eyes.


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

There are only 2 pinto genes that can cause blue eyes. Frame and Splash. 

So many people think of Splash horses as having the typical splash markings. But many do not. The easiest way to tell is if a horse has an odd shaped blaze (especially if it falls off the face or includes the lower lip) the horse is probably carrying splash

Or if you have a Tobiano with no chest shield then Splash covered it up. Or a horse with a dark tobiano head and white body. Again that is splash. 

Sabino really is not a pinto gene and many are trying to have it taken out of pinto literature. Sabino WILL NOT cause blue eyes and it does not cause bald faces, unusual blazes etc. That is Splash. Sabino causes roaning, some flecking small white socks, stars on the head and small blazes. 

Splash is not at all rare. Keep in mind that splash can hide like Frame. I think it got that reputation because so many do not recognize it. So someone breeds what they think is a tobiano to a solid horse and they get a blue eyed foal with lots of white. So then they call it a "cropout" because they didnt understand that the Tobiano was also carrying splash.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

So is splash an overo gene - or can tobianos have it also. IE: tobiano with splash is actually tovero OR just tobiano with splash gene? My understanding was that ONLY overos/toveros can have blue eyes, minus double dilute cream genes.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

PaintHorseMares said:


> BTW, you never see mention of blue eyes in tobianos either, but they can...see our Paint mare "Angel", who has two blue eyes.


I would argue that Angel is a tovero. Just by seeing her blaze. Tobianos only have normal non-color face markings: star strip snip blaze etc. Angel's comes way across her forehead above her eye(very similar to my gelding's).


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

Yes Splash is lumped under "Overo genes" by most people. But again understand that a lot will use Overo when they really mean Frame LOL. This is why it gets so confusing

So yes you could have a Tobiano horse that carried splash and call him "Tovero" and most people do that. 

And yes dilutes (cream dilutes not silver) also have blue eyes but thats a whole nother story LOL


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

LOL thanks for clearing that up weefoal, I thought you were going to have to school me for a moment.


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

LOL I am just so fascinated by equine color. Its an obsession can you tell?? 

come on over and have some coffee and we can go thru every pattern 

Ive been clipping show horses all day so Im on coffee break


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

weefoal said:


> Tobiano---A TRUE Tobiano with no other pinto genes will have a colored head with no white. Also will have chest shield, color in the flanks and 4 white stockings with jagged edges. Will also have a split tail. BUT keep in mind those are kinda rare. Most will also have another pinto gene such as Sabino or Splash. Tobiano DOES NOT cause blue eyes. Tobiano can be very hard to pick out on a minimal expression horse. A "lightening" bolt down one side is a very common tobiano marking


The papers on my horse, Ricci, [you can see her in my "barn" and my picture] say she is Tobiano. However, she has a black face with a blaze, doesn't have jagged stockings, all of her legs are white, and two blue eyes. She does have the chest shield, colored flanks, and a two-tone tail [I'm assuming that's what a split tail is. I wonder what else she is crossed with, all this stuff just goes way over my head, haha.

Also, I thought Tobiano VS Overo had something to do with the markings on the back?

AND, a long ago quote said, "All paints are pintos but not all pintos are paints." That was before solid paints could be registered as breeding stock, though.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

Ricci is a Tovero also.
Her blaze that's trying to spread across her forehead is an Overo characteristic.
*Overo: Head markings are distinctive, often bald-faced, apron-faced or bonnet-faced.*
*Tobiano: Head markings are like those of a solid-colored horse--solid, or with a blaze, strip, star or snip. *
Her blue eye(s), of course.

Here's the Tovero definition again, according to APHA at least:
*Tovero
*_(pronounced: tow vair' oh)_ 
Dark pigmentation around the ears, which may expand to cover the forehead and/or eyes. 
One or both eyes blue. 
Dark pigmentation around the mouth, which may extend up the sides of the face and form spots. 
Chest spot(s) in varying sizes. These may also extend up the neck. 
Flank spot(s) ranging in size. These are often accompanied by smaller spots that extend forward across the barrel, and up over the loin. 
Spots, varying in size, at the base of the tail. 


The most common sign of Overo vs Tobiano is an Overo won't have white that crosses across their back between the withers and the tail. That is probably what you are thinking of. There are other things to look at too though.

It is up to if you want to keep her reg'd as Tobiano or go for Tovero. To some people it matters, some it doesn't.

As for the specific color genetics... weefoal has the answers


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## Starryeyed (Oct 20, 2008)

Since you all no WAY more about this than me, what would you say my Gypsy is? Shes a pinto arab, but what are her markings? She kind of has roaning if thats what you call it and no face markings. Here are a few pics, more pics in my barn file thing. Thanks!


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## ashleym100 (Apr 23, 2009)

kk so i called apha and they stick by Iassic being a tobiano ....but they say i can appeal if i'd like....by their own classification hes tovero but they dont seem to want to follow their own guidelines at least not without a disagreement they feel the only thing not tobiano about him is the extent of white on his face


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## weefoal (Apr 4, 2009)

Riccilove

Yes your horse is Tobiano but I suspect shes also carrying splash and probably sabino. She doesnt have the jagged markings on the legs because Splash covered it up. 

Starryeyed

Im so happy you posted that horse! Because its really rare to see a pinto with no face white. Shes definitely tobiano and probably splash. The roaning is caused by Sabino. 

There are some strictly Tobiano breeders out there that have managed to breed Tobiano horses that do not carry other genes. They are very sought after because as you guys see its hard to find a Tobiano that isnt carrying splash or frame etc. 

Ashley I think that is so dang silly of the APHA! Geesh. I really think APHA needs to get with the times. Its just crazy to me that an organization that only registers Paint horses is so outdated. But its probably not worth fighting them on. 



> Overo won't have white that crosses across their back between the withers and the tail. That is probably what you are thinking of. There are other things to look at too though.


This only applies to Frame. Since most consider Splash to be overo remember splash can have white that crosses the back.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

ashleym100 said:


> kk so i called apha and they stick by Iassic being a tobiano ....but they say i can appeal if i'd like....by their own classification hes tovero but they dont seem to want to follow their own guidelines at least not without a disagreement *they feel the only thing not tobiano about him is the extent of white on his face*


Isn't that contradicting themselves right there?
OMG these people are goofballs!!!

I am stubborn and I would appeal it just because LOL Someone needs to get the stick out of their butt and figure out what specific guidlines they want to follow!!!!!!!!




> Overo won't have white that crosses across their back between the withers and the tail. That is probably what you are thinking of. There are other things to look at too though.


I know overos can sometimes (rarely, I believe) have white over their back. I just mentioned that as a general rule of thumb for someone to spot an overo vs a tobiano - she mentioned she heard something about the back.


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