# Stall aggression



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Is he OK if you lead him in the stall and if you are there with halter and lead rope on him? If not, I'd just put halter/lead and walk there with him and mess with him keeping some control. If he tries to bite let him run into the elbow, or manure fork, anything unpleasant. The biggest danger is not biting, but if they try to turn and kick at you (at least IMO), and that's when halter/rope are handy by giving you a control. Personally, I'd go after my horse in this case, because I have to mess with mine in stalls when it's rain or snow (brush them, bring water/hay, check for injures and such).


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

No, I can't lead him into the stall at all. We usually stop at the door, I take his halter off, and he walks in. Thats just common practice and what I've always done with him, but he even pins his ears at me when I have the halter already on him if I try to step into the stall. I actually tried on Saturday since I had to clean his waterer and turn him out, but I ended up having to tie him outside his stall to go check it.

He also does this to EVERYONE, not just me, just so there's not the assumption that its what I'm doing.

He's never offered to kick, except if its a cow kick when trying to clean his sheath, and his bites actually draw blood. He picked the BO up when he bit her. I've been kicked before, thats not my fear, but never been bitten.


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

If he tries to bite let him run into the elbow, or manure fork, anything unpleasant.
Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/stall-aggression-54860/#ixzz0njRRpLmi

Dont do that if your horse doesnt want you in his stable and you then attempt to use a fork on correction. You are then reinforcing that he must protect himself from you as you are bringing pain!

If it was my horse id maybe bring a bucket of feed into the stable or apple and let him eat out of your hands so you are associated with only nice things this will get his trust and he will continue to let you in a little bit more each time.

You cannot rush this something has made him want to protect his area and you must let him learn your allowed in there with him.

Have you tried switching his stables to a new environment also this might break the agression sightly.

I dont know if any of this will be of any help to you though.
​


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

MaggiStar said:


> If he tries to bite let him run into the elbow, or manure fork, anything unpleasant.
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/stall-aggression-54860/#ixzz0njRRpLmi
> 
> Dont do that if your horse doesnt want you in his stable and you then attempt to use a fork on correction. You are then reinforcing that he must protect himself from you as you are bringing pain!
> ...


Um, no ----


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

HOw would gaining his trust by positive reinforcement not help themacpack??

So you would let yourself be associated with bad rather then good?


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## Alexart (Apr 14, 2010)

Have the horses either side of him changed?
How much hay are you giving him?
How much turn out is he getting?
How much hard feed is he having and how much work?
How many people handle him?


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

MaggiStar said:


> HOw would gaining his trust by positive reinforcement not help themacpack??
> 
> So you would let yourself be associated with bad rather then good?


 
Sometimes, with aggressive and dominant horses the use of positive reinforcements encourage the behavior. Take my husband, for example. He has 20 horses he MUST ride EVERY DAY. 9/10 are soured up, and pin their ears at their neighbors. You're saying that opening the stall, bribing each one out with an apple is going to correct the problem?

Tempting with treats is 1) a bandaid solution when one is in a hurry, and 2) a sure-fire way to help encourage a horse's dominance over you. 

In no way am I saying that you shouldn't give treats, or that it doesn't help some horses come around, because those are both positive things. But in this case, OP needs to assert her dominance in the stall, and let Sir Grumpy Britches deal with it. 

And you know what? I would much rather be associated with a bad thing than get hurt. You can go back and erase most things that are "bad" that you're referring to, but you can't always take away an injury. And honestly, I'd much rather that horse have his feelings hurt than risk my health in any way, shape, or form.

The first thing I would suggest, OP, is to trade stalls with someone, if possible. At least for a short amount of time, to see if it's the stall he's protecting, or if he feels threatened in the enclosed space of the stall. (Which is very likely, he could feel cornered in there, or he could know that getting out means work and is avoiding you.) Whatever the case may be, he knows that he has you at his mercy when he's in the stall, and you need to correct that. If that means standing there, working him in and out of the stall for 10 hours, that's what you've got to do. You might even have someone help you, hold him outside the stall, you go in, and do not allow him in. Make sure he knows this is YOUR space, and he's just ALLOWED in it, and ONLY when you say so.

What are some of the other things you've tried with him?


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

I do agree with your ideas.

however if i had an agressive horse i would not want to try force my presence onto him i would rather he accepted me. The last thing she wants is her in the stall horse has no where to flight and resorts to fight. Now im not one of those dont be mean to the horses types if they disrespect me i will discipline them. But this horse is trying to protect his area and if your threatening him in his space his only optio is to protect at all costs.
Definitely move as far away from that stall as possible. And try to make your presence a positive sign for him.


OP is there any chance he could have been slapped or anything by other barn members??


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

To MaggiStar---thats exactly what I was thinking about the fork, I've only owned him for a year, so I don't know what his previous circumstances were. I know since he's off the track, they usually clean the stalls with the horses in with them, so there is a good possibility he's also been possibly antagonized by someone with a manure fork. I don't know this for certain though.

I DO occasionally feed him hay from my hand, but only if he has a nice face....the first few times he tried to pin his ears at me and take it, but I shooed him back until he learned to approach with a better attitude. I also do this when throwing him hay for breakfast/dinner (I work at the barn 3 days a week)....he can't pin his ears at me and he has to back away from the door nicely. He used to not let me touch his face over his stall door, and now I can again. I know that I personally have slapped him on the muzzle when he tried to nip at me before while tacking up, but he's never been aggressive on cross-ties, and I've never done anything to him in his stall. I am not sure about others though.

To Alex....he's gotten fatter. His left is fatter than his right. Its pretty much always been that way, and he's always been uncomfortable with people messing with him on his right side. He gets 5 decent sized flakes per day, 3 in the AM and 2 at night (he is on night turn out). If we have extra hay, we throw it out into the pastures for the horses, and he'll get an extra flake. He's also on 5-6lbs of Safe Choice a day....I'm looking to change that (more hay, less grain and maybe some rice bran on top) but at the moment I have no $$ to do it. He gets 8+ hours of turn out, by himself because he does not like geldings, and the mare that he likes aren't allowed to be out with other horses (per her owner). He also is on ZERO work right now, I'm trying to get him fat and then re-introduce work to see how much food he needs to keep weight on him. However, when this initially started, he was being worked 3 times a week. There are I believe 5 people who consistently handle him.

westonsma, we do have some outdoor stalls that he is perfectly fine in. I can walk in, refill the water buckets, come in and out, and walk right up to him to put a halter on. These stalls are a little bigger, and made of steel piping, so they might give the illusion of not being boxed in. I've tried putting him on a long lead and just working with him on going in and out, and he's GREAT with that, he'll do it forever. He also does great with him outside and me inside. Its purely the combination of him and any person in the stall together that he does not like.

I have not tried anything else because no one seems to be able to provide me with ideas....we used the "this is my space **** it" approach with a dominant aggressive mare, but his aggression is purely protection/submission aggression--I saw someone on this board describe it as "please dont take my lunch money"


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Maybe he was hit with the forks i know in my yard if the horse doesnt move they get a little bop to move away maybe he got one that was slightly harder then intended.

you are just going to have to show him only nice things happen in his stable make it a positive kinda place like any vet calls etc are outside the stable as thats not nice for them. 

It will take a while to get him back as a happy horse could you find out anything about his history?


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Nope....I know nothing of his track days (he was there for his whole life) and then the woman before me had almost zero interaction with him, and he was turned out 24/7.

They do not muck stalls with horses in them at my barn, accept on RARE occasions and its usually the really old/docile ones. A couple comes and does the night horses stalls (there are 7) after dark so theres almost zero chance that someone recently would have given him a bad stall experience.

As for vetting, getting his feet trimmed, etc he's excellent...he's fine with needles and picking up his feet. We also do it completely in the other barn, where the aisle way is wider and a truck/trailer can be backed up to it. His most recent teeth work was done in the middle of the front yard.

The whole problem is he's never been a happy horse ,except for the few weeks where I had off from work and was out riding every day. Otherwise he's always been a little surly, but complacent.


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## shesinthebarn (Aug 1, 2009)

I think I must have misread in the OP when you said the BO getting attacked was "entirely her fault for not reading his signals right". Please say you don't truely feel that she caused that attack. I'm so hoping I misunderstood. Your horse attacking her is NOT her fault. If that horse were in my barn I would give you the option of either getting help and resolving the issue or moving your horse. JMO as a BM and as a boarder. 
Why can't you lead him into the stall? What does he do? If you have become fearful with him it`s possible you are playing into his bahviour and actully make it worse. You say he has actually drawn blood biting? A horse that will actually pick someone up with his teeth and draw blood has an owner in desperate need of professional help. I strongly urge you to seek advice from a reputable trainer well versed in ground work techniques and dealing with aggression. Are you certain this behaviour is out of fear and not dominance? It sounds to me as if he has dominance issues. Consequently, dominance issues can be spawned from fear that has gone unchecked. I'd try dealing with the issue far away from the stall and work on gaining respect. Respect = trust. If he has healthy respect built on a solid foundation of trust his behaviour should improve. Sometimes a horse-human relationship can become so unbalanced in the "who's the boss" area that the horse becomes frustrated and feels like he has no other choice than to assert himself as the leader. I think this issue is going to take a lot od tough love, resolve and consistency to solve. I fee very strongly that you need outside help with this horse - before he serously hurts you or someone else.


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## hillarymorganstovall (Mar 27, 2010)

I don't know if this would work (I've never had an aggressive horse) but it may be worth a try? :think:

If you want to show him that you aren't gonna eat him up...

When you go near his stall, don't look him in the eye, look down, and don't stand with your shoulders square to him, at 45degree or even with your back to him, maybe just stand there for a while until he eases up and realizes you aren't gonna steal his stall. Maybe he will come towards you if you aren't threatening.

Sorry if this is a stupid idea!! 


shesinthebarn sounds right too... maybe you should try to join up with him... check monty roberts site he has videos


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

shesinthebarn said:


> I think I must have misread in the OP when you said the BO getting attacked was "entirely her fault for not reading his signals right". Please say you don't truely feel that she caused that attack. I'm so hoping I misunderstood. Your horse attacking her is NOT her fault. If that horse were in my barn I would give you the option of either getting help and resolving the issue or moving your horse. JMO as a BM and as a boarder.
> Why can't you lead him into the stall? What does he do? If you have become fearful with him it`s possible you are playing into his bahviour and actully make it worse. You say he has actually drawn blood biting? A horse that will actually pick someone up with his teeth and draw blood has an owner in desperate need of professional help. I strongly urge you to seek advice from a reputable trainer well versed in ground work techniques and dealing with aggression. Are you certain this behaviour is out of fear and not dominance? It sounds to me as if he has dominance issues. Consequently, dominance issues can be spawned from fear that has gone unchecked. I'd try dealing with the issue far away from the stall and work on gaining respect. Respect = trust. If he has healthy respect built on a solid foundation of trust his behaviour should improve. Sometimes a horse-human relationship can become so unbalanced in the "who's the boss" area that the horse becomes frustrated and feels like he has no other choice than to assert himself as the leader. I think this issue is going to take a lot od tough love, resolve and consistency to solve. I fee very strongly that you need outside help with this horse - before he serously hurts you or someone else.


It was her fault as I said for misreading HIS signals....he was grinding his teeth at her which she thought was chewing....in a dark stall its very easy to misread, when she told me that, I even went O.O and realized she was right. She claimed it was her fault, I personally think its just bad timing. She also said that it was completely out of the blue, it was the first time and the only time he's ever attacked her, he actually waited till her back was turned and got her on the shoulder. He has threatened to bite her again in the stall, and bitten one other person as more of a warning bite...no mark was left. After the BO was bitten I warned everyone to not go into his stall, and the one girl who was bitten after her chose to do so anyway. As for me, I'll lead him into his stall, go to take his halter off, and he'll pin his ears and bare his teeth at me. If I make a noise, he'll flail his head, ears still pinned and if I try to touch his face again, bare his teeth and snap at me. Outside of his stall I can touch him all over.

I saw its fear aggression because of how he chooses to bite. If he bit and then crowded space, turned to kick, etc, I would consider that dominance. However, he stretches his neck as far as it can go to get you, and then after recoils into the opposite corner of his stall, like he's trying to get away from you. Oustide of his stall, if he gets attitudy, he acts big but if you don't really react, he kind of goes "oh" and moves on. Thats all defensive action IMO, and so I'd say its submission/fear aggression. He's always been a big talker, when it comes down to it he'll back down, but I do not want to get into that fight with him in a stall, be wrong, and get seriously injured/killed. 

I have sought MANY peoples help with this issue, this is the only issue he really has in his behavior. However, there is no one near me really equipped to deal with this training wise, I'd have to send him 3+ hours away which helps him but not me, and the people who I've found close to us are flakes. People have told me feed him more, so I have, and I've seen a tiny improvement in his attitude. I've tried the in and out game that westonsma alluded to, which is supposed to build confidence in himself, making him LESS submissive, but he does that no problem. I wanted to move him to the outdoor stalls but those are under a tin roof with lots of sun exposure, and no fans...being dark bay, he holds in heat as it is.

He lunges like a dream. He turns into me, stops, licks, chews, that whole thing. He leads well, stops exactly shoulder to shoulder, doesn't crowd your space (if anything he'd prefer you to be 5 feet away from him), backs from just my hand on his face, sidesteps to the right, and is a little sticky on the left, but he yields his hindquarters well. I've been told to do groundwork with him so many times i could be rich, so unless he's a good liar respect is no problem. He's very well controlled under saddle. W/T/C without rear, kick, or buck.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

hillarymorganstovall said:


> I don't know if this would work (I've never had an aggressive horse) but it may be worth a try? :think:
> 
> If you want to show him that you aren't gonna eat him up...
> 
> ...


I have been told to try this as well.....I can stand in his doorway like that, but if I try to step down into his stall, no matter how long he sees me there (half the time he'll put his nose down and pretend to eat) he whips his head around and pins his ears at me. When I come to the door he'll usually circle around and then put his head down as mentioned. I've also been told to join up, but then later told because of HUGE trust issues, it might just reinforce them.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Sounds like the horse is claustrophobic. He is fine with the same things in the open and the outdoor stall. He's not kicking - he is defending with his teeth - so he can keep his eye on the interloper. Fight or flight - he can't get away - so he is fighting.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

mls said:


> Sounds like the horse is claustrophobic. He is fine with the same things in the open and the outdoor stall. He's not kicking - he is defending with his teeth - so he can keep his eye on the interloper. Fight or flight - he can't get away - so he is fighting.


Any ideas of how to cure that? lol

As a note to shesinthebarn, sorry about the novel lol, AND I am also naturally kind of aggressive, its just my personality. I'm used to working in a big group of dogs, and so my brain has kind of re-wired itself from prey animals to the hunters...however, I'm also very good about my body language. Which is pretty much why I say training will help him but not me...he can get over his issue, but someone needs to teach me how to cool my jets sometimes too.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MaggiStar said:


> Dont do that if your horse doesnt want you in his stable and you then attempt to use a fork on correction. You are then reinforcing that he must *protect himself from you as you are bringing pain*!
> ​


I have to disagree. You don't bring a fork or crop and start to beat a hell out of horse. HE is bringing himself a pain if HE runs into the elbow or the fork. HE is the one who chooses to do it by being aggressive and trying to bite, not YOU. Giving an apple/carrot/treat for pinning ears and bared teeth is asking for troubles.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

There was an instance where we were working with him about his "whips" issue--We have a few of those Parelli/CA training sticks with the strings on the end, and up until I brought that to guard my space a few days after the incident, I was able to walk into his stall fine. I made no attempt or gesture to move the stick at him, it was in my hand, facing the ground. He saw it and lunged at me. So we decided to put him in the round pen and work with him on it. We put a flake of hay down on the ground and put the stick so it was kind of blocking the hay--he could eat it, but he'd have to physically be near the stick. He stood on the other side of the round pen for a good 6 minutes before deciding that hay was important enough to brave the stick over....even then he angled himself so that he was facing away from the stick, and stood kind of far away so he had to stretch his neck out. He was about half way through the flake before he got comfortable enough with the stick to take a step up closer to it.

To kitten_val...exactly. He gets no food if he's nasty. It took him a day to learn that. I've progressed to opening the door and letting him eat that way, but and he kind of stretches to get to the hay, whereas over the door he did not.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> I've been told to do groundwork with him so many times i could be rich, so unless he's a good liar *respect is no problem. *He's very well controlled under saddle. W/T/C without rear, kick, or buck.


 
Respect is a problem. If he respected you he wouldn't have a problem with you in his stall. By stopping when he pins his ears and backing off you are reinforcing the negative behaviour.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Did you try to desensitize him with the stick by rubbing it all over him in round pen? Looks like you have to start very slow from ground zero. And you'll have to do it anyway - sooner or later. :wink: May be lots of desensitizing in round pen, then in barn next to his stall would help him. Does he like to be touched? Petted? May be start with standing on doorway for while just talking to him calmly, and then step in and talk till he calms down, etc.

I agree with Kevin, any step back is reinforcing this particular behavior - he wins by scaring you (BO and other people) away.


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Have you looked in his eyes when this happens does he look angry and agressive or a scared horse?

as really punishing a scared horse is reiterating in his head that he is right you are scary


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## hillarymorganstovall (Mar 27, 2010)

Ok... He kind of sounds like my dog!! like you, I normally deal with dogs, but I see some of the same actions, even if they are prey and predator.

This is what I under stand is happening:

When you approach his stall he circles it and when you continue to move forward, he pretends to eat, and when you continue forward he snaps his head up and pins ears and bears teeth. 

I think it sounds like he is confused about who is the boss in the relationship. This is how I interpreted it. (like I said before, I'm no trainer, I have never had an aggressive horse)

1. It seems that he is letting you know it is 'his' stall by the way he circles, he is testing you.

2. It seems he knows you're in charge, by the way he pretends to eat at first (sort of avoidance), but is uncomfortable with it maybe doesn't trust you 

3. He is uncomfortable with you as the boss, he is trying to test you. When you move forward, he acts out at you. 


To me it seems he really needs an overhaul. I really think he doesn't trust you and is trying to test you every chance he gets (the way he snapped at the person when she turned her back). Maybe he is uncomfortable in a small space in your presence but is fine in a large space with somewhere to flee. (I don't know)

The join up is supposed to help with the trust. It creates an understanding between you and the horse that you are partners, but you make all the executive decisions and they are for his best interest. It seems that you should Join Up and rebuild your relationship from the ground up. In my opinion, it isn't safe to ride a horse that doesn't completely trust you and that you cannot rely on consistantly in any circumstance.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

justsambam08 said:


> Any ideas of how to cure that? lol


lol?

Sorry - I do not find it the least bit funny.

Horses can have genuine anxiety issues. Most of the time this type of behavior is associated with trailering but I have witnessed horses having stall issues. Typically related to an incident in their past. Horses forgive - but they never forget.

He could also have sight issues. The shadows in the stall, reflection of light - etc.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Did you try to desensitize him with the stick by rubbing it all over him in round pen? Looks like you have to start very slow from ground zero. And you'll have to do it anyway - sooner or later. :wink: May be lots of desensitizing in round pen, then in barn next to his stall would help him. Does he like to be touched? Petted? May be start with standing on doorway for while just talking to him calmly, and then step in and talk till he calms down, etc.
> 
> I agree with Kevin, any step back is reinforcing this particular behavior - he wins by scaring you (BO and other people) away.


Nope, he doesn't _like _to be touched, petted, groomed--he _tolerates _it all. A few weeks ago he had a really nice workout and we were giving him a bath afterwards, and he was all yawns and licking and chewing, and he was leaning in to getting scratched in some places. He likes the chiropractor/massage work for about 30 minutes, and then its like he realizes he's let his gaurd down and goes back to being rude. I don't know if its sensitivity or oneryness, because he's been like that from day 1, he puts up a fuss and I do it anyway, and he goes back to tolerating it. He does not flinch when touched with any whip or stick, I can swing it over his head and under his feet and he doesn't freak out...he does freak out about doing things near his face like flailing a lead rope, but after you do it a few times he accepts it.

I agree also, but I think that when he gets to that point of making me back off, he's ready to kill me if he has to to protect himself. If it were out in the open, I'd go for it. In a stall--no. The FIRST THING I was taught when getting into horses is don't put yourself in a stall with a horse who's not safe. Also don't get yourself into corners. Like mls said, fight or flight....by cornering him, it just brings on a bigger fight because he has no where to go except through me.

To Maggi, he is not scared, and not mean...he is unsure. If you look at my avatar you can kind of see it, he was looking at something way off at the other end of the arena at the time, but you can see he was trying to decide if it was there to kill him or not. That's essentially his look when you deal with him, or anybody. Five minutes in a round pen, even at a walk, and he gets a really soft eye and is ready to go.

I find our whole relationship is a viscious circle....I can't work him if he doesn't trust me, but he doesn't trust me if I don't work him! Last month a girl was leasing him, and she came out and rode two days in a row, and his whole attitude did a 180. She skipped a day, and came out again, and he was a nasty cuss. No matter how much round pen groundwork we do, it pretty much only lasts until he goes to sleep at night.

We've had him checked out by the vet for sight issues, and he sees out of both eyes just fine. I say all of the time his perfect situation would be 24/7 turn out, but in Florida land and/or pasture board situations are hard to come by.

It was meant as an offhand comment. My use of the word "cure"? Obviously you can't cure claustrophobia; I can most definitely work with it, but first I need to know if thats what it is or not.


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

But kitten Val to approach agression with agression in confined space is going to do more damadge then good.

i understand you would only be using your crop when he goes for you. But if it was my horse id rather find out was it motivated by fear or what. A fearful horse is not going to respect you as a leader if he is being punished he maybe forced into submission however gaining his trust will show him that your not something to fear.


OP when you originall got him did he test you or could he be pushing you now to see how far you will let him go? Is he in contact with contant streams of different people could this be making him uncomfortable?


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Sorry about double post but we posted at the same time
Is there anyone you can share ownership with so he gets as much exercise as he needs to keep him happy i know a friends horse was very grumpy if her routine was disrupted she liked to know what was happening when and got stressed when this changed. If your guy came from a very structured yard this change in routine and environment could be to much you have mentioned several times he is content when ridden regularky so maybe start at this as the root of your problems?


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

^^I am trying to lease him out, but the girl that I had who LOVED him, wasn't able to work out a schedule with me that worked...our days we were available to ride were the same. The lease market is even crappier than the sale market down here. She was the only response I've had in the 3 months that his ad has been up.

He would make an excellent performance horse, but the problem is everyone sees that he's a TB and wants to jump him. Once they find out he's probably not sound for it, they change their mind.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

MaggiStar said:


> But kitten Val to approach agression with agression in confined space is going to do more damadge then good.
> 
> i understand you would only be using your crop when he goes for you. But if it was my horse id rather find out was it motivated by fear or what. A fearful horse is not going to respect you as a leader if he is being punished he maybe forced into submission however gaining his trust will show him that your not something to fear.
> 
> ...


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Thank you, Flitterbug!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I've only read the first page of responses and I am in no way a trainer. I get in trouble all the time for being too soft on my boys. My horses are all really good in their stalls although once in a while Riley gets ****y. I try to give him his stall as his personal space as long as he is safe towards me. He can be ear pinny and nasty if he wants and I let him alone as long as I can go in safely and dump his feed, change his bucket or pick a pile of poop if need be.

I don't go into his stall to halter him. I jingle it at the door and wait for him to come to me. and I just realized I am not help. Sorry.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Thanks FlitterBug! Okay, so more or less I should not be trying to put weight on him and then work it off, but working him and trying to put the weight on at the same time? The most work I do personally with him is w/t, if he feels up to cantering when we first start I let him go a few circles and then we get down to business and its not allowed. Sometimes it DOES look like hes off on his front left, but usually within a few strides it goes away, and its only every so often. He also doesn't have as much of a reach with his right hind, but he does track up well nicely nonetheless so he's not super stiff. However, he's great disengaging his back end both ways, and the front end he actually is slower to the left (right leg in front of the left) than he is to the right (left leg in front of the right).

I'm not going to be able to start working with him again till next week when I get his feet trimmed, right now his toes are not long but they are flared out quite a bit. He doesn't stumble or shuffle but I certainly don't want to start working him and have him split a toe or something.

I can agree with the fact that he has defensive patterns outside the stall as well, except I think they manifest as him completely spacing out--his personal bubble is like 20 feet in diameter, I believe? It's improved a little bit, but not by much. He gets super uncomfortable when people just stand next to him, he clenches his jaw and veins start popping out of his face, and his eyes glaze over.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Your horse has figured out that his behavior keeps you out of his stall...He needs you to reassert yourself as his leader, plain and simple. Regardless of the type of aggression, he has gotten away with the behavior. He doesn't 'live' in his past, you are keeping him there by allowing his behavior to continue. I suggest you find a trainer to work with you closely, and get that bad habit under control before someone gets seriously injured; that, or you darn well better make sure you have insurance that covers anyone that has to go near him, or you may wind up with a lawsuit on your hands.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

mom2pride said:


> Your horse has figured out that his behavior keeps you out of his stall...He needs you to reassert yourself as his leader, plain and simple. Regardless of the type of aggression, he has gotten away with the behavior. He doesn't 'live' in his past, you are keeping him there by allowing his behavior to continue. I suggest you find a trainer to work with you closely, and get that bad habit under control before someone gets seriously injured; that, or you darn well better make sure you have insurance that covers anyone that has to go near him, or you may wind up with a lawsuit on your hands.


As I said before....flakes are close by, everything else is in 3+ hours away and they don't travel. On Saturday I'm meeting up with the woman who runs the local OTTB organization, we've talked extensively about Ice on a listserv we both belong to and she's going to be in my area for an event. She knows a lot of OTTB trainers and has dealt with quite a few, so I'll see what suggestions she has. 

I've put up signs and verbally warn everyone one who I see, on top of the BO verbally warning everyone, so liability covered. Theres no possible way that we couldn't say I told you so.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

It doesn't need to be intense work, just something to get him moving. Hand walking does a lot more than people think. Light work while putting weight on him will keep him comfortable, but remember that he is not designed to look like a stocky quarter horse. Also, I would try to walk him on the right side some. With some horses, this can slightly tweak the bend and give them an opportunity to push the barrel over to track up with the right hind. Use the same pressure on the right side when on his back, even if its just a shift in your weight to help him redistribute his. 

I have some horses that work through everything with out the slightest indication that something is wrong even when I find out that they are in a pretzel, yet I have others, like my best lesson pony, that I got for next to nothing because she was "unrideable". She's actually just extremely sensitive and if somethings wrong she lets you know, yet now she is 14 yrs old with a better body than some 5 yr olds I know, so although it can be a pain in the butt to keep up with her wimpy personality, her sense of self preservation has definately extended her use. Some horses get to the point where they refuse to work through it anymore, then behavioral problems pop up and they are labeled as "problem horses". 

I do know a trainer that would be able to help you that travels to Sarasota sometimes, is that anywhere near you?


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

FlitterBug said:


> I do know a trainer that would be able to help you that travels to Sarasota sometimes, is that anywhere near you?


Yeah thats about.....an hour or so away, give or take? I go to the beach a lot in that county, so its not ridiculously far off.

PM me!


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## aforred (May 12, 2010)

I had a problem kind of like this once. I went to a horse show, and when I got home, my 2yo buckskin gelding was a mass of nerves in the stall. If your problem popped up overnight (which it sounds like based on the OP), I would be tempted to think that something or someone either scared or hurt him in the stall. 

Two questions:
1. Is there any way you can post a video of this behavior?
2. Have you ever tied him up just outside the stall (or had someone hold him) and let him watch you go into his stall?


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

aforred said:


> I had a problem kind of like this once. I went to a horse show, and when I got home, my 2yo buckskin gelding was a mass of nerves in the stall. If your problem popped up overnight (which it sounds like based on the OP), I would be tempted to think that something or someone either scared or hurt him in the stall.
> 
> Two questions:
> 1. Is there any way you can post a video of this behavior?
> 2. Have you ever tied him up just outside the stall (or had someone hold him) and let him watch you go into his stall?


I could possibly get a video, although I don't know for certain if he'll lunge at me again--lately its just been baring his teeth and kind of throwing his head, like he's preparing to dodge a swing? I know for certain on Sunday evening I'm going to work on his food aggression in the round pen. I tried today just to mess with him when I had a few minutes. I pretty much just opened the stall door and stood on the threshhold and shooed him away from his hay from there. He pinned his ears at me, but actually jumped back and then stood there. I didn't let him come back to eat till he at least moved his ears and dropped his head. No licking and chewing, so it definitely wasn't submission just an "ookay, I get it. I'll find somewhere else." However he had a biiiiig problem with me and and his grain. I just poked my head over the door and talked to him and he turned around, pinned his ears at me, and then he went back to eating. I figured I'll focus more on that on Sunday.

I also heard a name dropped today, a man who's working with our resident problem mare. I might ask more on him on Sunday also.


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