# Feel like I wasted $1300 - vent post



## SnowCowgirl

So I have a 4 year old paint/draft mix gelding. I got him in a horse trade when he was 2. Due to my life being crazy he sat untouched in a huge 300 acre pasture until this spring at 4. He was born on the range, handled only to be loaded and taken to me, caught a handful of times (in a chute) as a 2 year old, castrated at 3, then caught a handful of times over his 3 y/o winter by running into a chute, roping, or getting him into a round pen (at which point I could catch him)

I took him to a "reputable" trainer, some hot shot who is certified up the wazoo, has trained in the states, etc etc. and told her everything.. That he sometimes pulls away while being lead, is hard to catch, has tried to jump out of my arena and bust through fences, and has kicked before. I agreed to 1.5 months and on her trainer form I specified that I wanted him started under saddle at a walk, trot, canter , direct reining, moving off pressure, a bit of handling with his feet, etc.

Fast forward 2 months (she gave me half a month free of cost because she self-admittedly didnt do anything with him for 15 days except lead him around because he had a "wall up"...though I still had to pay board at $225/month)... I picked him up last week and have a horse who has been backed a MAX of 5 times and only at a walk, I "need to do more work" with his hind feet, "hates the bit".

He is NOT a mean or untrainable horse. Nervous, yes. I think she was scared of him. Kept calling him a mustang in front of people lol

Admittdely He is a lot less nervous, I did walk up and catch him the other day, and I did pick up his front feet (though I could do that before he left). But when I get on him it's going to be like getting on a first timer colt (and that won't be til I have him used to a brifdle with a bit) Which i was sooo looking forward to NOT doing for once. On the bright side, she did saddle and longe him under saddle a bunch of times and he hasn't bucked yet so that's nice to know. $1300 for that though? Never again will I send a colt away to be started.

Ugh I just have such a bad taste in my mouth. I really did have no other option cause I just moved and have no access to pens, arenas, etc... But it is still really frustrating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Muffin.

Sorry, I am sick of people expecting a virtually untouched horse to be dead broke in 6 weeks. Give it 6 months, at least.
$1300? That's a little more than my board for one month. Don't want to pay? Do it yourself.
I hear this over and over and it gets frustrating to me. I know so many people who wont start horses anymore because of people who want the horse finished in a month when it'd just been pulled out of a field. Of course she's only done ground work. That's all the horse is ready for. It takes 6 months to break a horse well, imo. Want it broke quick? Take it to a trainers challenge demo. I bet they'd do it for free too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SnowCowgirl

Please don't pick on me, and if you do, do it in a nice way  I'm just so bothered by this. I'm working a job right now that does NOT make much money (kids, don't follow your dreams if it means you'll be broke forever! Haha) and man... I need a bigger horse trailer, and a saddle to fit my mare... What $1300 could have done! But maybe my expectations were too high??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SnowCowgirl

I didn't want finished, at ALL. But I did want a few rides, the horse to accept a bit, y''know? I've started several colts myself and though I'd NEVER consider them broke after that time I'd sure as heck have them going round the arena at a walk and trot and they'd definitely be comfortable with a bit in their mouth. No, he'd never been "worked" with but he was broke to lead which is as much as any colt I've ever started. Maybe I was expecting too much. I just wish she'd told me before, because I'm not sure I would have put this much money into this little return. That's all. I really believed she could do what we agreed to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Yes, they were. The horse will take far longer than 6 weeks to be broke, regardless of how much $ you pay. And if some cowboy wants to bronc out the horse in a week for $100 then all the power to him, but the horse will still not be broke.

I get irked because this is the prevailing attitude and it wrecks horses and makes trainers lives not fun. When owners expect a show ready horse in 2 months it is not realistic, but of course the customer is always right...
Not picking on you, just be realistic with your expectations. Should a toddler read at a Grade 4 level in 6 weeks?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xGirugamesh

If you're not willing to put in the work to break him, then why did you buy him? I'm not trying to be rude, honest. Just curious.


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## SnowCowgirl

I didn't buy him, I got him and his 1/2 sister in trade. I had planned to start both myself but was too caught up between college and work unfortunately. Then I moved 3000kms from home, sold the filly and kept the colt when he didn't sell. I am boarding and don't have anything except a large pasture to ride in so I opted to send him to a trainer because I feel like need at minimum a round pen to start a colt in.

Trust me, I'd never have considered a trainer otherwise 

Either way, I plan to hold into him and will put the time in. I'd just expected (and been told by the trainer) that I could expect a bit more
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

I guess the part that sticks out here too is that the trainer led the OP to expect more. if they discussed the parameters of what the training would accomplish, why would the trainer sit back and take the horse if they couldnt do what they claimed they would??

If you cant or won't provide the service you agreed upon...dont promise you can and take money as if you did. All Im saying I guess , is dont promise the world if you cant provide the world ...


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## xGirugamesh

Ah, okay. I definitely understand why you might have trouble with that situation then. I really don't have any advice to offer, but I wish you the best of luck with him! The nervous horses are always the easiest for me to bond with haha.


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## SnowCowgirl

**** I lost the post I just typed up! (On my silly iPhone too)

Antebel, I would NEVER expect a show ready horse in 2 months. But I HAVE started colts myself who, within 2 months, were comfortably toddling down the trail and around the arena. That's from just halter broke with no prior work besides that. I told her that he would be an all-around horse and I only wanted the basics on him. I ASKED what I could expect in 45 days and she said walk, trot, lope, move off pressure. So I wrote that on the training form and I guess I expected that a pro COULD do that with a fairly nutty 4 year old if *I* could do it with others (albeit calmer colts, which is why I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt the entire time)

I guess I'm just frustrated that I expected something and didn't get it, I still don't have a horse that I can wander down the trail on behind my boyfriend on my mare, or work under saddle in the arena.

Either way, I plan to keep and work with him. In hindsight I guess I should have sold him for $200 or whatever I could get but what's done is done 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xGirugamesh

It just sounds like not a very honest/hardworking trainer IMO. I'd avoid her and/or give her an awful review on Yelp(;
(I hope you know what that is or else my joke isn't funny :C)


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## tinyliny

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Yes, they were. The horse will take far longer than 6 weeks to be broke, regardless of how much $ you pay. And if some cowboy wants to bronc out the horse in a week for $100 then all the power to him, but the horse will still not be broke.
> 
> I get irked because this is the prevailing attitude and it wrecks horses and makes trainers lives not fun. When owners expect a show ready horse in 2 months it is not realistic, but of course the customer is always right...
> Not picking on you, just be realistic with your expectations. Should a toddler read at a Grade 4 level in 6 weeks?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Did the trainer say she could make the horse show ready in 2 months? Did the trainer even agree to the OP's somewhat unrealistic expectations? The trainer should make things more clear from the beginning what is a realistic expectation for the amount of time and money the owner is willing to committ, and not allow the owner to go home thinking they will get a trained horse in such a short time. That way there won't be disappointment at the end of the 2 months.


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## 4horses

So she only worked him a month and a half? I agree. Your expectations were way to high.

Did she realize she would only have the horse for 2 months? 

Considering the way he was handled: roped, castrated, and turned back out, it is a wonder he did as well as he did. None of those are good experiences. I would assume the lack of human contact made him into "a wild horse". 

There is a ten fold difference in working with a horse handled as a foal, or exposed to shows as a weanling, vs one that is thrown out in the field on it's own. 

I have a friend who raises warmbloods and she starts their training from day one. Those babies are handled at least 3x weekly and shown as weanlings. It is a huge advantage when it comes to selling them later on! 
She has many happy customers- that early exposure is crucial to making a good horse! Those horses are so easy to train! 

My last horse was basically a wild 2 yr old. She would let you touch her, but was not halter broke, weaned, or had ever seen a farrier. As a 2 yr old, I treated her much like a weanling. She was definitely "behind" compared to other horses her age (both in growth and mental maturity). It took over a year to get her riding. Not that I was in any rush. 

If you don't have the time (or money) to spend on getting this horse trained, you would be better selling and taking a loss, and buying a horse right for you. There are plenty of cheap horses on the market that can do trails. It takes time to train, and if you can't be consistent, you won't make much progress. Do you really want to wait another 6 months or more for a horse you can ride?


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## SnowCowgirl

Initially we agreed on 1.5 months, with understanding of what I expected. That time was extended to 60 days when I realized she hadn't even been on him at 45 days.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BlooBabe

My initial response is 'you know what happens when you assume'.

I think that if the trainer said she was going to do everything she should have given you a better time line. I don't get on a horse for at least 3 months after I start them. And that's only id the horse is amazing and has had a lot of ground work done before it comes to me. I think the trainer did right by not getting on him until later in the training because she didn't know him and you'd told her he wasn't respectful. If someone dropped off a horse to me that didn't respect fences,had only been handled a few times, and kicked there is no way I would ride him until I'd seen him at his worst and done weeks of ground work with him. So I feel like you've got no right to be angry with what you got back based on what you gave her. She did a lot even backing him with that kind of resume. 

That being said, she should have told you what realistically could happen in 2 months based on her work schedule and the horse. But some trainers will nod their heads and completely ignore what you're saying. And licensed up the wazoo trainers usually do that because they don't necessarily need your business or care about your bad review with all their credentials. Just from my own experience.


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## gunslinger

DW and I took a three year old colt for 90 days training and it was the best money I've spent in a long time.

There are, at least a few trainers, who do what they say they'll do.

We couldn't be more pleased.


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## franknbeans

Many trainers can "break" a horse in 60-90 days. Just look at the mustang challenges. HOWEVER-I will guarantee there will be huge holes in the training in most cases. Should the trainer been more clear about what to expect? Possibly. It is also possible that the OP may have heard what she wanted, or a combination of the 2.....leading to a misunderstanding. A horse that is basically totally unhanded can take 30 days just to throw a saddle over, especially when OP says it is a spooky horse. I am guessing the trainer was taking their time to do it right, as they should. It is much harder to correct a horse broken wrong, after all. And, OP-$1300 is really not much. Sorry. I tend to be with Anebels train of thought on this one.


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## Cherie

I used to have horses walk, trot and lope circles in less tan 30 days, even when they arrived not halter broke or even handled. They were halter broke by the end of the first day. They were not 'cowboyed' or 'bronced out'. About 1or 2 bucked out of every 50 that I started every year and they usually had someone fail to get them started that tried them before they came to me. I hated seeing 'pets' come to me much worse than unhandled horses. 

I think while most training was much too fast 50 years ago, it has slowed down to a snail's pace today. I see people here saying a horse needs weeks or months of ground work. A good, efficient trainer can get everything done on the ground that needs to be done in 2 or 3 days. Taking longer does not make a better trained or better mannered horse -- just one that took longer to do what should have been done in a few days. 

A horse should be respectful but not fearful. 

A horse should 'yield to pressure' anywhere you touch it and ask it to move away from that touch.

A horse should move forward when asked, move over when asked, move back when asked and stand still when asked. 

A horse should be desensitized to a big soft rope everywhere (frequently called 'sacking out') and able to stand tied for saddleing and bridleing. 

If a trainer can't get this done in 4 or 5 days, they need to work on their skills (or lack of them) for handling green horses. All this should be done without any panic or huge fight from the horse. You just build one step at a time and release pressure when you get the right response. 'Wild' horses are a lot more attentive and actually learn many things faster than gentle horses.

Once they are OK with saddleing, (always girthed up loosely at first), they stand around all day for a day or two while I do the same thing with other horses and ride the ones that are ready.

I do not know why people now think it should take a lot longer to do the basic handling and gentling. I just takes a confident trainer that knows what they are doing. Everyone else is just learning.


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## COWCHICK77

OP, I am with you. You disclosed how he had been handled previously and what you expected to be done for the time he was there. Which was NOT unreasonable! You did the hard part, in my opinion, getting him haltered. You don't need 2 years of ground work to get a horse started and riding! The problem is that most "certified" trainers never have to deal with halter breaking a full grown untouched range horse. Most horses that get sent out to break are the opposite, and mostly come in as pushy and rude.

Someone made a comment about how he was previously handled and it was a wonder the trainer got as much done with him as they did- that has no relevance to amount of time to get him started! We have started a pile of ranch colts the same way, they get gathered and brought into a big roundpen, roped and castrated then turned back out until late winter. Brought back in roped, halter broke and started. See below pictures....he looks pretty traumatized don't he???


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## Ian McDonald

The part that got me was where the trainer admitted to not doing anything with the horse for 15 straight days. I think that if I had to tell that to a client it would be at the same instant I'm handing them back their check.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

SnowCowgirl said:


> So I have a 4 year old paint/draft mix gelding. I got him in a horse trade when he was 2. Due to my life being crazy he sat untouched in a huge 300 acre pasture until this spring at 4. He was born on the range, handled only to be loaded and taken to me, caught a handful of times (in a chute) as a 2 year old, castrated at 3, then caught a handful of times over his 3 y/o winter by running into a chute, roping, or getting him into a round pen (at which point I could catch him)
> 
> I took him to a "reputable" trainer, some hot shot who is certified up the wazoo, has trained in the states, etc etc. and told her everything.. That he sometimes pulls away while being lead, is hard to catch, has tried to jump out of my arena and bust through fences, and has kicked before. I agreed to 1.5 months and on her trainer form I specified that I wanted him started under saddle at a walk, trot, canter , direct reining, moving off pressure, a bit of handling with his feet, etc.
> 
> Fast forward 2 months (she gave me half a month free of cost because she self-admittedly didnt do anything with him for 15 days except lead him around because he had a "wall up"...though I still had to pay board at $225/month)... I picked him up last week and have a horse who has been backed a MAX of 5 times and only at a walk, I "need to do more work" with his hind feet, "hates the bit".
> 
> He is NOT a mean or untrainable horse. Nervous, yes. I think she was scared of him. Kept calling him a mustang in front of people lol
> 
> Admittdely He is a lot less nervous, I did walk up and catch him the other day, and I did pick up his front feet (though I could do that before he left). But when I get on him it's going to be like getting on a first timer colt (and that won't be til I have him used to a brifdle with a bit) Which i was sooo looking forward to NOT doing for once. On the bright side, she did saddle and longe him under saddle a bunch of times and he hasn't bucked yet so that's nice to know. $1300 for that though? Never again will I send a colt away to be started.
> 
> Ugh I just have such a bad taste in my mouth. I really did have no other option cause I just moved and have no access to pens, arenas, etc... But it is still really frustrating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For $1300, I think she did exactly what he needed. I wouldn't have accepted an untouched 4 year old with those unrealistic expectations listed on the form. There's no way on earth in 1.5 or 2 months that the horse would be doing all that. 6 months, maybe.....


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## BlueSpark

Sorry, but I'm with the OP on this one. I have been on the other side of the coin, training horses with people who have crazy expectations, so I typically sympathize with the trainer, but not this time.

Firstly, the trainer was told what the horse was like, and still claimed they could get the horse going w/t/c. If the horse was surprisingly crazy, and the trainer was having problems, they should have called the owner in the first few days, and explained that it would take extra time.

secondly, I whole heartedly agree with the person who said training these days was done at a snails pace. It should not take 6 months to get a horse to the point where someone experienced can use it on the trail. 

groundwork. good grief. I do groundwork, but even with a super nervous, reactive horse with little-no training and bad experiences with people, it should not take more than 30 days(ever!) to finish the groundwork. and I'm sorry, but walking the horse around for the first 15 days without doing any actual training is absurd.

If there were issues along the way, the trainer should have communicated them better. if they had problems working with a nervous horse with issues, they should never have taken him on, and/or not promised a well started horse.


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## ropinbiker

If I was the OP I would be upset! She didn't get 2 months(or 1.5) worth of training. When I started outside colts a few years ago I guaranteed a horse that knew all 3 gaits under saddle, had a great stop, have at least 20 rides, and be used to a bridle/bit....most horses only need a day or two of "ground work"...we have gotten into "babyin" horses too much...just like some folks' kids that are running amuck in restaurants these days...no discipline!!

I am getting sick and tired of some of y'all on here using the word cowboy negatively...I will say this again -- Cowboys NEED a willing PARTNER...therefore, our horses MUST see us as the leader and do what we say; but, we(most) get them that way in a very humane way, not by just jumping on and jabbing them....otherwise, we couldn't be able to control them one-handed on a loose rein....


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## LesandLily

I don't think the OPs requests were out of the ordinary. I have watched my brother who is one of the best natural trainers I have ever seen, take broncy, spoiled hardly touched 2 - 4 year olds and by the end of 60 days they are quiet puppy dogs who can ride nearly anywhere, direct rein, move away from pressure, stand quiet tied and overall be a good citizen. I consider this a well started horse, nowhere near a finished show horse, which in no way is what the OP requested.

One of the horses my bother fixed was a basically untouched 7 year old who had been ridden previously and bucked her owner off when she was started as a 3 year old and then not ridden again until she decided to sell her. She figured she would bring her to my brother for 60 days as she would get more for her if she had some manners. The first day, just to get a starting place for her, he saddled her, got on and she bucked HARD. Rodeo style bucking. He got off and returned her to ground zero. From ground work to handing her back in 60 days she went from a horse that nearly killed herself being tied to a horse that Tommy could lead around the ranch without a lead rope, ride through water and over bridges, ride around barking dogs (she HATED dogs), kids on bicycles etc. She was nowhere near ready for a show and she only knew direct reining but she was well started and a solid citizen. 

I don't think 60 days for a well started horse if you are a good competent trainer is out of the question, especially if you work with the horse 5-6 days a week for a couple of hours per day. I would actually rather have an untouched, pasture raised 3 year old than a 7 year old backyard pet that has become aggressive and learned lots of bad habits you have to unlearn like the mare above. Show horses can take years but a good solid horse in 60 days would have no missing holes if the steps are done right by a competent trainer. I am finding not all trainers should be horse starters. It takes a knack to start a horse well and some trainers are better at the more advanced stuff and some are better at the starting, foundation stuff. Just my $.02.

Cheers!
Les


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## ropinbiker

Also, around here, most good trainers charge $600-800 for the first 30 days - you will get a rideable/safe horse that knows all 3 gaits under saddle and that will accept the bridle well....rates vary after the first 30 days, some stay the same, some take a $100 or so off after the first 30 days.


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## LesandLily

ropinbiker said:


> If I was the OP I would be upset! She didn't get 2 months(or 1.5) worth of training. When I started outside colts a few years ago I guaranteed a horse that knew all 3 gaits under saddle, had a great stop, have at least 20 rides, and be used to a bridle/bit....most horses only need a day or two of "ground work"...we have gotten into "babyin" horses too much...just like some folks' kids that are running amuck in restaurants these days...no discipline!!
> 
> I am getting sick and tired of some of y'all on here using the word cowboy negatively...I will say this again -- Cowboys NEED a willing PARTNER...therefore, our horses MUST see us as the leader and do what we say; but, we(most) get them that way in a very humane way, not by just jumping on and jabbing them....otherwise, we couldn't be able to control them one-handed on a loose rein....


Being a cowboy myself as well as hanging out with cowboys on a daily basis, the very BEST horsemen I know are cowboys. "Cowboying" in my neck of the woods is a badge of honor and respect. In no way shape or form does it imply harsh or negative training methods and if you go to a ranch branding or roundup in most of Montana, Wyoming, South Dakota and North Dakota (this is the area I primarily photograph) you will find some of the best trained, best behaved and best ridden horses anywhere on the planet. These guys rely on these horses for not only their livelihood but their safety and well being and will only accept well trained willing partners. Are there some "bronc busters" out there? Sure. But they are becoming few and far between and no self respecting "Cowboy" that I know would expect to have it take more then 30 days to have a horse ridden let alone 60. Full trained bridle horse? That may take years but they will be on their back within 7 days max in almost every situation. 

The horse Tommy started in my last post...he was on her back in 7 days and she never bucked once except when he first saddled her. She got a little jumpy a time or two but mostly it all went smoothly. My brother is also a cowboy, farrier and horse trainer. Cowboy methods are, IMO among the best when done right. Some of the most spoiled and bratty horses I have ever run into have been high level dressage horses who live in a stall 24/7 so that they don't mess their coat. Not to say that all dressage horses are spoiled, I am just saying that there are examples in every discipline and be careful not to categorize. 

Cheers!
Les


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## FilliesJoinUp

I have to say I sort of understand the OP surely the horse could have been sat on. My current project is a three year old. We've had him for four months and already he's walking under saddle. This is from no handling. This also includes ensuring his weight is put on. He can be mounted from the ground and allows himself to be tacked up by one person. Seeing as he doesn't like his ears and he's at least 15 hands it's progress. I'd say from him having tack on its been one month for me to ride him. We even let one of the other people who loan a different pony (this girl is ten) to ride the youngster (with a leader). Seeing as I was in full time education and also participating in shows whilst doing the work with my new horse surely two months for someone whose work was to back the horse can't be too demanding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal

anabel is just telling the truth. JUST GETTING A HORSE SOUNDLY BROKEN IN takes loads and loads of training hours. Just bc anabel shows Dressage doesn't mean she is considering her _own_ specialized training schedule when talking about basic training.


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## SnowCowgirl

Just want to make it clear again that I asked her "what can I expect in 1.5 months", to which she responded "walk, trot, lope under saddle"

I mean, I will be keeping and finishing him now mainly because right now as a VERY green grade gelding he isn't worth the money I've put into him. I'll put the time into him now that I'm in a position to do so. I have never used a trainer before and I believed her when she said what she could do, otherwise I probably would have sold/given him away unbroken and not put that kind of money into what *I* believe is not worth the money (the minimal training I mean)

I just learned a lesson - I will never send a colt away to be started again considering I can do it myself just as well, and save a bunch of money doing so
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d

You guys need to back the truck up a bit, what if one of you guys said you needed an engine rebuilt, I said sure bring it over it will take me 6 hours and cost 100, then I gave it back with an oil change. Youd be ****ed. Well thats what this trainer did.
If Snowcowgirl was an expert she wouldnt have been hirign a trainer now would she ? She took the horse to trainer, said I want XYZ done, trainer saids sure pay me $1300. That my friends is fraud. That trainer took her money KNOWING he couldnt accomplish the task at hand. And you guys are all over the OP for being unrealistic in her expectations ? Thats ridiculous. Sure she may have been but she didnt know that. The trainer should have told her that before he took her money. Personally I find that pretty crooked on the trainers part.


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## SnowCowgirl

That said, I am very happy that he is calmer and that I can catch him now!! So, I take back that u completely WASTED the money because at least I can catch him now! I had just been expecting more the entire time so was pretty taken off guard.

No big deal, I'm not MAD and I would maybe even take lessons or something from this lady in the future, she is very nice. But I just won't send another colt to her, or likely to anyone else. To me, that is too slow with too little gain for that kinda money.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

I suppose it's just a difference in experiences and knowledge/ability. I agree with Cherie and CowChick, what you listed wouldn't be considered "unrealistic" in my barn. It doesn't take 6 months to get a horse that can comfortably w/t/c under saddle and be sane enough to ride around on trails. They sure won't have any sort of finishing work on them and they may not be perfectly "collected", but there is a difference between trained and broke. To get a horse _broke_, you just teach them the basics and then ride them a few million miles until they are comfortable with whatever you are doing on their back. A _trained_ horse is what you see in the reining or dressage arena. Most average riders don't need or want a horse like that...and couldn't ride it if they had one. They need a horse that they can walk out and catch, put a saddle on, and ride around without being bucked off, bolted with, kicked, run over, etc, etc, etc.

If there was no big issues that came up that she would have had to deal with like bucking, then I see no reason why she couldn't have had him going at 3 gaits and plow reining with a rider in 30 days. Of course, sometimes a particular temperament or an issue pops up that may bring progress to a screeching halt until that issue is resolved, but an average horse? No reason why it couldn't be decently started in 30 days.

Just because someone can get a lot done with a horse in a hurry, I don't know why folks always think that huge holes are being left in their training. Perhaps it's just because that particular person knows how to get the most out of a horse a short time. I often wonder if some people are just jealous that it takes them 6 months or a year to get the results that someone else can get in 30-45 days.


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## 4horses

The problem is there is a shortage of good trainers. If you want the horse going well in 30 days than those trainers are probably going to charge a whole lot more, and be booked well in advance. 

I can certainly train an untouched horse in 30 days, but there are many trainers who can't. There are many trainers who don't know how to handle an untouched horse from a field/the wild. As for my 2 yr old, she was straight from a field, and needed the time to mature (grew another 6 inches in height! Yikes!). Instead of pushing her, I ponied her on trails, got her groundwork done, and saddled/bridled, and exposed her to shows. Lots to do without ever needing to get on her. Since this was my future show horse (and hopefully my lifetime partner) I was not going to rush. 

We still don't know the trainer's side of the story. Maybe the horse had a major snag in it's training. What exactly happened that the trainer didn't touch the horse for 15 days? Seems like something might have gone wrong. 

If the owner is disappointed, maybe she should call the trainer and ask why there wasn't more progress? Or if there were any major issues? Very well could be a reason...


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## FlyGap

I agree with those and you SC that agrees he should be doing better with that amount of time.
I have, and I'm no trainer.

Guys, in that amount of time I'd expect the basics, and by basics I mean solid ones.
Like stand for mounting/tacking, gentle, a nice walk, and a calm trot. He should be wore out and responsive, bomb proof, no, but well on his way to green broke. Only 5 rides on him? That's ridiculous.

I too think it's easier to start an unhandled horse than to fix a problem one.
When I sent mine in (for the FIRST TIME EVER) he had huge problems, in just shy of two months my trainer had her 7 year old daughter trail riding him. He was a mess that I was too busy and to busted up to work on, was a puppy when I got him back.

Bummer SC. I'd be ticked too.


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## my2geldings

SnowCowgirl said:


> Ugh I just have such a bad taste in my mouth. I really did have no other option cause I just moved and have no access to pens, arenas, etc... But it is still really frustrating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is outrageous! Every horse I have sent out to be broke to ride, has usually gone for 2-3 months and I've paid $850/month for board and full time training. For that amount of money he better be working at the walk/trot/canter and starting to come on the bit! I would refuse to pay that kind of money for that little work. If you've already paid, I would be asking for a refund.

Shows the importance of doing your homework before sending your horse out to someone.


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## Cherie

More than just 'doing your homework', you need to check on a horse once a week at least. If you see inadequate progress you say something or bring the horse home. You need to discuss this as the horse is being trained -- not wait until it is time to bring the horse home.


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## SnowCowgirl

That was my biggest mistake. Unfortunately the trainer was a total of 7 hour drive from me so I only got up there a couple times. She kept reassuring me so I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

smrobs said:


> I suppose it's just a difference in experiences and knowledge/ability. I agree with Cherie and CowChick, what you listed wouldn't be considered "unrealistic" in my barn. It doesn't take 6 months to get a horse that can comfortably w/t/c under saddle and be sane enough to ride around on trails. They sure won't have any sort of finishing work on them and they may not be perfectly "collected", but there is a difference between trained and broke. To get a horse _broke_, you just teach them the basics and then ride them a few million miles until they are comfortable with whatever you are doing on their back. A _trained_ horse is what you see in the reining or dressage arena. Most average riders don't need or want a horse like that...and couldn't ride it if they had one. They need a horse that they can walk out and catch, put a saddle on, and ride around without being bucked off, bolted with, kicked, run over, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> If there was no big issues that came up that she would have had to deal with like bucking, then I see no reason why she couldn't have had him going at 3 gaits and plow reining with a rider in 30 days. Of course, sometimes a particular temperament or an issue pops up that may bring progress to a screeching halt until that issue is resolved, but an average horse? No reason why it couldn't be decently started in 30 days.
> 
> *Just because someone can get a lot done with a horse in a hurry, I don't know why folks always think that huge holes are being left in their training.* Perhaps it's just because that particular person knows how to get the most out of a horse a short time. I often wonder if some people are just jealous that it takes them 6 months or a year to get the results that someone else can get in 30-45 days.


To the bolded sentence:clap::clap::clap::clap:
(loved the whole post, but that is my favorite)


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## Saddlebag

When we send a horse off for training, it's got to be close enough for frequent visits. This isn't always easy. I'm beginning to think we don't pay for a month's training but pay week by week. A good trainer can put a nice wtc and backing up on a horse in 30 days because the horse understands what the trainer is asking. It should only be considered "started".


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## Celeste

I suspect that the "hole" that this horse had in its training was that the "trainer" didn't work with him but 5 or 6 times.


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## Undante

Sounds like you got overcharged. Sure this horse might take more time, but that trainer probably only took 5-10 days out of that month to work with him and charged you like she handled him daily. No wonder he didn't get very far.


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## Celeste

Undante said:


> Sounds like you got overcharged. Sure this horse might take more time, but that trainer probably only took 5-10 days out of that month to work with him and charged you like she handled him daily. No wonder he didn't get very far.


In my area, a trainer that didn't have a horse working fairly well under saddle in that amount of time would not stay in business. Be it right or wrong, people expect results. 

When I first sent my horse out to a trainer, she admitted that she didn't work with her for the first two weeks. She kept her two weeks longer and didn't even charge me board for that time. After 30 days of training, I could saddle, mount, and ride the horse. I rode her for a while and then sent her back for another 30 days. If I felt like I could spend the money right now, I'd send her out one more time for some polish work. If I had spent money for 60 days of training, and the horse had not been ridden, I believe that I would try to stop payment on my check.


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## churumbeque

SnowCowgirl said:


> Please don't pick on me, and if you do, do it in a nice way  I'm just so bothered by this. I'm working a job right now that does NOT make much money (kids, don't follow your dreams if it means you'll be broke forever! Haha) and man... I need a bigger horse trailer, and a saddle to fit my mare... What $1300 could have done! But maybe my expectations were too high??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I nice new saddle is just what you need for a horse that you can't ride. If money were an issue you should spend more time working your horse so it wouldn't take some one so long to finish it.


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## churumbeque

SnowCowgirl said:


> That was my biggest mistake. Unfortunately the trainer was a total of 7 hour drive from me so I only got up there a couple times. She kept reassuring me so I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 When I have had a horse far away I expect video and photo updates. Easy to do with todays technology.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

smrobs said:


> I suppose it's just a difference in experiences and knowledge/ability. I agree with Cherie and CowChick, what you listed wouldn't be considered "unrealistic" in my barn. It doesn't take 6 months to get a horse that can comfortably w/t/c under saddle and be sane enough to ride around on trails. They sure won't have any sort of finishing work on them and they may not be perfectly "collected", but there is a difference between trained and broke. To get a horse _broke_, you just teach them the basics and then ride them a few million miles until they are comfortable with whatever you are doing on their back. A _trained_ horse is what you see in the reining or dressage arena. Most average riders don't need or want a horse like that...and couldn't ride it if they had one. They need a horse that they can walk out and catch, put a saddle on, and ride around without being bucked off, bolted with, kicked, run over, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> If there was no big issues that came up that she would have had to deal with like bucking, then I see no reason why she couldn't have had him going at 3 gaits and plow reining with a rider in 30 days. Of course, sometimes a particular temperament or an issue pops up that may bring progress to a screeching halt until that issue is resolved, but an average horse? No reason why it couldn't be decently started in 30 days.
> 
> Just because someone can get a lot done with a horse in a hurry, I don't know why folks always think that huge holes are being left in their training. Perhaps it's just because that particular person knows how to get the most out of a horse a short time. I often wonder if some people are just jealous that it takes them 6 months or a year to get the results that someone else can get in 30-45 days.


I completely agree with you Jen, as well as Cherie & CC. 30 days should be ample time to get a decent start on a horse without leaving holes. Finished/trained, not even remotely close but a solid foundation, most definitely. I always tell folks "I don't do 30 day miracles" but if it's in comparison to the results in this situation, maybe I should! :lol:

OP, I would be very disappointed with what you got for the time & money. Particularly since you were told horse would do a,b,& c in that time. It's folks like this 'trainer' that give good colt starters that can get the job done right in a respectable amount of time a bad rap.


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## SnowCowgirl

churumbeque said:


> I nice new saddle is just what you need for a horse that you can't ride. If money were an issue you should spend more time working your horse so it wouldn't take some one so long to finish it.


 As stated, the saddle is needed for my MARE, not this gelding. If I'd had time to work him I never would have sent him out for training. I sent him out to be started, not finished.

Thanks for the replies now. Unfortunately, what's done is done and I've already paid 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Celeste

If it were me, I would contact the "trainer" and ask her to train the horse since she has already been paid to do so. If she will not make it good, I am afraid that I would make her name known. Other people deserve to be warned.


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## its lbs not miles

First I'll say sorry if I repeat what someone else already covered (not reading all the post right now).

I won't say what any individual person can or can't get done with a horse in a given period of time, because it's as much about the horse as it is the trainer. Some horse are amazingly easy to get started and others can be exceedingly trying.
Based soley on the information provided the trainer has apparently never worked with an older, unsocialized horse that may well be not too far removed from becoming almost feral.
The trainer should have checked the horse, not just go on what they were told before giving or agreeing to any expectations.
Even a horses that are use to people, stand to be haltered, easy to lead, groomable, etc..., don't always train the same or easily. e.g. my current two mares who are maternal first cousins and fraternal second cousins.
One day to get the older one to let me take her front and rear feet. Younger mare was one (long) day for the front and over 3 weeks for the rear.
And yet after 2 months the younger would lift her feet for me without me asking for them, while the older one has always made me ask. 

Took 15 minutes to get the older one stand and be saddled the first time and she accepted me in the saddle the next day. Took a month to get the younger one stand and be saddled.

Yet while the older one is easier to start with everything it's the younger that is the first to great me spend more time near me.

Point is a trainer really needs to consider what the indidual horse is like. What they managed to do in a day with the last 6 horses might take a week with the 7th.

I would not be happy if I was told that I would have rideable horse in 6 weeks for $1300 and didn't have it, but I would suspected a trainer who told me the could deliver that with the horse the OP described


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## ~*~anebel~*~

And people wonder why no one will train horses....

Sorry but especially after this thread, there is no way in heck I'd ever take on a horse for training, especially not starting one. Because God Forbid if you want to do any ground work with it.
Next colt starter I meet I'm going to hug, because they are the ones that have to put up with this unrealistic crap.


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## oh vair oh

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> And people wonder why no one will train horses....
> 
> Sorry but especially after this thread, there is no way in heck I'd ever take on a horse for training, especially not starting one. Because God Forbid if you want to do any ground work with it.
> Next colt starter I meet I'm going to hug, because they are the ones that have to put up with this unrealistic crap.


Agree. 

And sometimes things don't always go as planned. These are individual horses, not robots. Sometimes they go good, sometimes they need more time. 

I expect 30 days to start a horse - just to start a horse! But that's after I've spent 2 years doing groundwork.


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## Celeste

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> And people wonder why no one will train horses....
> 
> Sorry but especially after this thread, there is no way in heck I'd ever take on a horse for training, especially not starting one. Because God Forbid if you want to do any ground work with it.
> Next colt starter I meet I'm going to hug, because they are the ones that have to put up with this unrealistic crap.


I am sure that there are plenty of horses that can't be trained in 60 days; however, the trainer said that she would get the horse going for the set price. It would be in her best interest to make the client happy. Many trainers do this kind of thing all the time even with totally unhandled horses. I think that the point of contention is that the trainer promised one thing and delivered another thing, but still charged the full price. She should have realized that this was a problem horse and at least alerted the owner to the problem so that she could decide whether she wanted to continue to invest in this horse's training.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Celeste said:


> I am sure that there are plenty of horses that can't be trained in 60 days; however, the trainer said that she would get the horse going for the set price. It would be in her best interest to make the client happy. Many trainers do this kind of thing all the time even with totally unhandled horses. I* think that the point of contention is that the trainer promised one thing and delivered another thing, but still charged the full price.* She should have realized that this was a problem horse and at least alerted the owner to the problem so that she could decide whether she wanted to continue to invest in this horse's training.



Really?? And where on the thread did the trainer come on and post and say that... or are we still just taking OP word for word? Because there is inevitably another side to this story, and personally I think $1300 is a bargain for what OP did get.
Some people are willing to get paid peanuts to bronc out untouched horses and get them "broke" in 30 days - that's great for them. Then the owner gets piled headfirst into walls and ends up with rods in her back. Not like I've never seen that first hand...
IMO the horse should be lunged for 3 months before anyone thinks about sitting on it (if it's just been pulled out of a field). And it's not like I muck about pussyfooting around in my training. I ride a horse right now with 10 months undersaddle who already has changes and is confirmed second level, with a few championships and large awards under his belt.


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## BlueSpark

> the horse should be lunged for 3 months before anyone thinks about sitting on it


goodness, how are people supposed to afford horses? so $650 a month, not including transport, is cheap(on the lower end of the average price here), what should they have paid? guessing $1000 a month? so three months of lunging at $1000 a shot, then I'm assuming you would say at least 3 months under saddle(correct me If I'm wrong) to get them 'started', in this case just well enough that a fairly experienced rider can take them out on the trail. the OP admitted the horse was worth about $200 before training. so that's $6000 to get a horse to the point it would be considered 'started under saddle', in training alone. when you can buy a barely started horse for 1000-1500. that's crazy.


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## oh vair oh

BlueSpark said:


> goodness, how are people supposed to afford horses? so $650 a month, not including transport, is cheap(on the lower end of the average price here), what should they have paid? guessing $1000 a month? so three months of lunging at $1000 a shot, then I'm assuming you would say at least 3 months under saddle(correct me If I'm wrong) to get them 'started', in this case just well enough that a fairly experienced rider can take them out on the trail. the OP admitted the horse was worth about $200 before training. so that's $6000 to get a horse to the point it would be considered 'started under saddle', in training alone. when you can buy a barely started horse for 1000-1500. that's crazy.


That's horses? They suck all the money out of you, and you can't sell them for peanuts, ahah.

I guess if it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

I think people like Anebel and I expect quite a higher level of competency when we start our horses because they are high-functioning performance animals. Like my yearling who has already been to world championships, can ground drive, and knows how to sidepass from the ground. She's also fitted up so she's less likely to hurt herself and more likely to use the correct muscles once ridden. When I get on her next year, it'll be a breeze (I hope). 

But if you're interested in taking a free/$200 cheapy horse and putting in some quick cheapy training to make a cheapy trail horse, then that is totally your option and perogative. And like you said, it's probably not worth it to put $6000 worth of training on a $200 horse. It's probably not worth it to put $1300 in it, I would've just left it out in the pasture until I had more time to do it myself.

But there's a difference between buying a $1500 already started horse, and then taking a $20,000 horse and putting in the $6,000 in training. 

So I guess, it just depends on who you are and what you want. Personally, I think the training is the most important part and I would invest a lot of money in it with a reputable trainer - which I don't think this one was, but you always have to be very responsible when you send your horses away and never see them.

I think you should look into some wannabe-trainer teenage girls in your area. They love to ride and break horses for pennies, aha. They'll do it all in your backyard too.


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## waresbear

Around here, if you longed a horse for three months for a client before riding it, you would be out of business before you even started. This is a grade gelding who will never see Grand Prix nuttin' or breed show regionals, training is different. For 60 days training here for $700 to $1000 per month, barring some major problem with the horse, you get halter broke, ground manners, including picking up hooves & farrier work manners, bridling, saddling, mounting and walk, trot and lope. The third month is optional, owner works with horse & trainer and that is $1000 per month minimum, these are what decent trainers charge here. Now if you want to get into something beyond the bare minimum basics, no trainer here will charge you less than $1000 per month and your horse will be with them on & off for about a year.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Most people I know do the ground work themselves before sending the horses out.
And if it's my horses, I'm doing the work myself, and asking for help from qualified individuals.

Sorry, horses are expensive. I board for more than what OP paid for training.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sahara

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Most people I know do the ground work themselves before sending the horses out.
> And if it's my horses, I'm doing the work myself, and asking for help from qualified individuals.
> 
> Sorry, horses are expensive. I board for more than what OP paid for training.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And we all know whomever spends the most WINS!!!:clap:


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## kitten_Val

oh vair oh said:


> But that's after I've spent 2 years doing groundwork.


I doubt _anyone _would send a horse to the trainer to pay for 2 years of just groundwork. Groundwork is a nice start and often a good thing to do for 5-10 mins (if needed) to warm-up or get the horse concentrated on you before the ride (I sometime do bending from the ground before I get in a saddle), however it's not an "answer to all". 

The fact you can and do spend 2 years on groundwork doesn't mean it's something everyone else should do. Personally I do think it's a waste of time to spend so much time on it _unless _you have a youngster you can't ride, so you have to work with one, and working from the ground is the only option. 

BTW, almost every reputable trainer in my area takes in unbroke horses to work with. Including dressage and eventing trainers.


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## BlueSpark

> Sorry, horses are expensive. I board for more than what OP paid for training.


They don't have to be that expensive. and congratulations on having thousands of dollars a month extra to dump into a hobby. that's great.:?

What I don't get is this stupid mentality, so many have, where if you are not using some crazy high end trainer, and you don't own a world champion quality horse then you must not have a high enough set of standards. what the people with this mentality fail to realize, is ITS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SET OF STANDARDS. I'm not going to buy a Ferrari to drive home on rutted gravel roads every day from work, or do a job with extensive travel. no, I would pick up a moderately priced car that is easy to repair and reasonable to replace, because I don't need any of the capabilities the Ferrari has, and paying for something I would never want or use would be ridiculous.

no one looking for a plain old, nothing fancy type horse that can pack them safely from a-b is going to go out and buy a super expensive, perfectly conformed, well bred show quality horse, nor are they going send it to a trainer that trains high end show horses.


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## upnover

I didn't read every post on this thread...but I agree with several points here. Anabel's right, expecting an untouched horse to be broke enough to w/t/c and accept at bit in 6 weeks? Unrealistic. I don't lunge horses for 3 months before I sit on them but expecting any more then what you got is pretty unrealistic. $1300 for 2 months isn't much either for board and a quality trainer starting a horse. Here's where I see the OP's viewpoint.. why the heck did the trainer tell you she could do it? or if she started working with the horse and realize she couldn't, why didn't tell you then? As a trainer I make a point to be very upfront and honest with anyone who brings me a horse. I've turned several people away who had too high expectations. But I've also had some people stay when I told them I'd do what I could do in the time frame they gave me. A few months ago I had someone bring me a pony they wanted me to teach to jump well enough to go to a show. The time they gave me seemed fairly reasonable. But the first week I sat on him I discovered a host of issues that would push that deadline way back. I immediately told them a more realistic time frame and they told me to do what I could do in the time they could afford. He came a little further along then I thought but wasn't ready to show. But because I was upfront and gave them updates, they were very pleased with the outcome. Communication! I don't know why so many trainers don't seem to have it, but it's important for business! Sorry OP that you were disappointed and frustrated. Understandably so, seeing how the trainer told you she could do it and took your money. But.. I think your expectations were too high.


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## ropinbiker

i would like to know what anabel's and oh vair oh's "higher level" of horse is??? Because, if y'alls "higher level of horse" has to be longed for 3 months-2years before "training" then I would think y'all are wasting alot of $$$; what does a horse have to do to be at this "higher level" -- you said side pass on the ground -- my roping horse was doing that on the 2nd day of ground work...you said ground drive -- I ground drive mine on the 3rd day and by the 4th day they are doing it in a bit, then on either the 5th or 6th day they are driven in only the bridle....so, again, please explain this "higher level of competency" and why it takes 3 months to attain it in these high $$ horses.


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## COWCHICK77

The time frame was not reasonable for what she asked for. People do it all the time. The pics I posted of my husband earlier in the thread, we did exactly that along with about a dozen others that winter. All of those colts went onto working outside gathering cattle and being roped off of in the spring.

The last trainer I worked for we did the same with the up and coming colts that he raised himself, they ran loose for the first 2-2.5 years of there life(although used to seeing people) I halter broke them as two year olds and started them without months of ground/round pen work. Then passed off to the trainer. They won AQHA and NRCHA World titles...hmmm...


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## PaintHorseMares

Joe4d said:


> You guys need to back the truck up a bit, what if one of you guys said you needed an engine rebuilt, I said sure bring it over it will take me 6 hours and cost 100, then I gave it back with an oil change. Youd be ****ed. Well thats what this trainer did.
> If Snowcowgirl was an expert she wouldnt have been hirign a trainer now would she ? She took the horse to trainer, said I want XYZ done, trainer saids sure pay me $1300. That my friends is fraud. That trainer took her money KNOWING he couldnt accomplish the task at hand. And you guys are all over the OP for being unrealistic in her expectations ? Thats ridiculous. Sure she may have been but she didnt know that. The trainer should have told her that before he took her money. Personally I find that pretty crooked on the trainers part.


I agree. In our neck of the woods, you do what you say or you give the $$s back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oh vair oh

ropinbiker said:


> i would like to know what anabel's and oh vair oh's "higher level" of horse is??? Because, if y'alls "higher level of horse" has to be longed for 3 months-2years before "training" then I would think y'all are wasting alot of $$$; what does a horse have to do to be at this "higher level" -- you said side pass on the ground -- my roping horse was doing that on the 2nd day of ground work...you said ground drive -- I ground drive mine on the 3rd day and by the 4th day they are doing it in a bit, then on either the 5th or 6th day they are driven in only the bridle....so, again, please explain this "higher level of competency" and why it takes 3 months to attain it in these high $$ horses.


Because she's a yearling and can only be worked 5-10 minutes a day.

:/ So yes, she picked up side passing in one day. Then the next week I did it over a pole. The next week I did it without touching her side. The next week I did it without a halter on her. And next year when she is 2, when I can put a saddle on her, I wonder how easy it will be. I've done my share of spurring and spanking young horses into things on the 3rd day of training, no thanks.

The first day my yearling ground drives with the lead rope in a round pen. By the end of the month we're ground driving at three gaits on the trail, no spook... Wow, what a waste of time that is.

Please excuse me while I take my overrated ground-controled horse to upper level shows and not have a single behavioral issue. 

And I don't have a lot of money. I don't have enough money to send my horse to a trainer. So to me, I have to have that foundation because I can't afford to pay someone to fix it later. I don't have the courage, money, or the skill to let my horse sit in a pasture for 2 years and then do all the work in 30 days. I won't do it to myself, and I won't do it to her.

I'm glad you can do it all in a week. It took me 6 months to get to a world championship on my own. I must be such a failure as a horse trainer, why can't I get all my training done in a week?


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## SnowCowgirl

Just wanted to say - it took the farrier an hour to do his feet today so guess I didn't even get that out of the training. 

Shoulda sold him before I moved, this is so frustrating. I don't mind starting colts, but not AFTER they've been to a trainer.

PS: I will NEVER own a 20,000$ horse or put 6k training into a grade horse who I only want to wander down a trail on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

SnowCowgirl said:


> Just wanted to say - it took the farrier an hour to do his feet today so guess I didn't even get that out of the training.
> 
> Shoulda sold him before I moved, this is so frustrating. I don't mind starting colts, but not AFTER they've been to a trainer.
> 
> PS: I will NEVER own a 20,000$ horse or put 6k training into a grade horse who I only want to wander down a trail on
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I get where you are coming from. Honestly to me it doesn't matter if your expectations were too high or not....the trainer promised and did not deliver, didnt communicate, and failed on all sorts of levels of good cuzstomer care. She knew the first month if she was gonna have issues and should have spoken up.

And thats the issue, not all the money wars, none of that....she promised, did not provide and took the money. Not cool.

Now, I would put stupid amounts of money into training, because I cant do it myself, and because Im soft hearted like that. But it would be kinda dumb for someone my level to buy a 20k+ horse...Id just be trail riding it like any 500 dollar Craigslist special. the purchase price then, would just be for bragging rights, which is so HS...


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## SnowCowgirl

Also - I'm not sure some of you know how impossibly snobby you sound. This guy will NEVER be a world champ anything, will never make second level dressage at 10 months under saddle. And i dont WANT that. I KNOW a horse can be going under saddle in 1 month because my family has done it for decades. My grandpa raised work horses. They were born on the range and stayed on the range til they were 3, only run in to be halter broke as weanlings and branded. If they made it to 3, they were started and put to work. You think there was any lunging or anything beyond minimal groundwork done?

I own one of those horses still, and she is all I could ever want. World class? Nope, but I'd say that most of the horse world doesn't need world class.

I still think that training was, mostly, a waste of money. Neat to see all the opinions though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SnowCowgirl

I guess that's why I kept giving her the benefit of the doubt... So many schools of thought when it comes to horses, but since she is a pro I believed she would deliver what she promised.

Oh well. I still love him  just hope I don't break my neck when I get on him lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch

Two years of ground work?

First of all, I don't lunge horses for more than a couple of days, and only if they are old enough to back. Senseless lunging is very hard on a young horse's leg joints. 

I ground drive.
This teaches a horse to bend, balance and accept the bit in ways lunging never can. Lunging is just useless calories being burned, IMHO. I ground drive at walk, trot and canter. 

If a horse is just green, and hasn't come to me with real issues that need to be undone, I will often get on their back in a week or two. The real training begins there. Once on their back, I will proceed at the HORSE'S learning pace and immediately slow whenever I hit an issue. It is not beyond reason to have a horse W/T/C within a couple of months. Show worthy? Of course not!! Beginner worthy? Again, no. Worthy of a decent rider getting on, in a ring? Probably. 

I don't train like every horse should come out of a cookie cutter. Each progresses at their own pace.


I was tasked with putting the below horse under saddle. He was fearful and reactive and the owner (an ADVANCED level eventer) was afraid to try to put him under saddle. The first time I put a surcingle on him he reared up and almost flipped over from feeling the belly band.

However, he and I came to a partnership so quickly, with quiet patience, that I allowed him to progress at his own pace. He was fabulously talented and learned quickly, once he trusted you.

Six weeks after having a saddle on him for the first time, he went into his first event at beginner novice. He won it. He loved it all.



It can be done, depending on the HORSE.


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## oh vair oh

Allison Finch said:


> Two years of ground work?
> 
> First of all, I don't lunge horses for more than a couple of days, and only if they are old enough to back. Senseless lunging is very hard on a young horse's leg joints.
> 
> I ground drive.
> This teaches a horse to bend, balance and accept the bit in ways lunging never can. Lunging is just useless calories being burned, IMHO. I ground drive at walk, trot and canter.


Two years - birth through starting at 2 years old. Sorry to not clarify. Not everyone needs a "minimum requirement" of 2 years of groundwork. There is just a lot that an untouched horse needs to learn, and I think it is better to do it over the course of those 2 years rather than all in the last 30 days. What is starting a horse from nothing? - Ground control, bathing, trailering, farrier work, medicating/worming, sacking out, driving, exposing them either to shows/trails, desensitizing, tying. Regardless of the price of your horse or what you want to do with it, you still need all those basic things before you even get on. 

Then there's the idea of fitness. No, I don't agree with senseless longing. My yearling longes, but that is just her final step. She is fitted by ground driving through the trails. Not only does it give her exposure, but also puts her through her cues. She is a sound and happy trail horse and loves it. She is also a show horse. Having control of your horse when you expose them to new things is important regardless of who or what you are. I just cannot imagine trying to cram all this information in 30 days, plus getting on them and riding them. Of course, a great trainer and a great horse can do anything! But a lot of trainers aren't great, and not all horses are either. 

I also think a horse should be physically fit enough to carry themselves and a rider. Pull a horse out of the pasture - he's probably out of shape even to carry himself properly unless he's very well bred. It takes time to build fitness so a horse can carry a rider without the potential for injury, or bad habits such as inversion out of pain.

Any horse and rider combination can benefit from a relationship with a trainer. Not just a onesy-twosy relationship, but one where you actively communicate your goals and hopes. You don't have to be in training full time, but training doesn't end after 30 days no matter who you are, and it's always good to have someone on your side to take lessons with or to ask for help. I can't afford lessons or training, but I have many friends who I can go to when I need help. 

And I treat all my horses like stars, I have both Minivans and Ferraris in my barn. That doesn't mean the Minivans don't get their oil changed regularly and are driven like crazy just because they are a cheap car. They get maintained like the Ferraris. Regardless of what your horse does or what your horse is, all horses benefit from good training. It adds value if you put it in. Selling a green broke horse is hard. Selling a pasture puff is even harder. 

Sorry if I've come off as a snob.


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## COWCHICK77

SnowCowgirl said:


> I KNOW a horse can be going under saddle in 1 month because my family has done it for decades. My grandpa raised work horses. They were born on the range and stayed on the range til they were 3, only run in to be halter broke as weanlings and branded. If they made it to 3, they were started and put to work. You think there was any lunging or anything beyond minimal groundwork done?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And that is why it didn't seem like you were expecting too much. You seen it done with results.
People may think that taking a few weeks to halter break and ride an untouched colt within weeks creates holes, but I have seen the opposite be just as bad. I have seen colts that were man handled from birth to starting age be resentful and tired of being handled or not any better off. Of course the personality of the horse, trainer/technique and learning speed is the major factor but reading and dealing with it in the best way possible is the key. (I kind of assumed that went without saying). Some one being handy enough can identify those personalities and issues then figure out the best way to deal with it that makes everyone happy, especially the horse. If the trainer was having those issues and decided she needed more time or was prepared to deal with him, she should of said so. I would have more respect for someone who said that she couldn't handle him rather than make a blind stab in the dark(without owners consent).
If I remember right the OP was in a slight pickle given she was moving for schooling/work and would not have the time or facilities to break him out herself. Rather than letting him set longer, she opted to spend the money to send him out for training. Not to get him show ready but manageable for the facilities and time available to her. She asked for advice on this forum as how to find a suitable trainer for this horse and admitted she had never sent a horse out for breaking. I think she tried to do the right thing by making a go of it instead of letting him suck oxygen and unused, in my opinion.


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## SnowCowgirl

Thank you!!! You definitely hit the nail on the head haha.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## flytobecat

So this is my rant-
I don't understand why everyone thinks groundwork stops because you can get in a saddle or why just because you can get on a horse that it's broke. 
The paint mare my sister had came to us with 30 days of training broke to ride after being stalled untouched for 2 years. I wouldn't say that she had holes in her training, but she definitely had a long way to go. On the 1st few rides we took her on, she had no idea how to maintain her balance with a rider while going down an incline or at a canter. Maybe if she would have had more conditioning and training on the ground that wouldn't have been an issue. She figured it out eventually, but it was little hairy there for a while.
OP -I don't think it was unrealistic for you you expect the horse to had a least have a couple rides in within the time frame given. I would be the same way. The trainer should have told you that it was going to take longer and let you decide where to go from there.


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## Heinz57

I'm so impressed due to time constraints that the op sent this horse out!!!! So sorry that I don't think she got what she paid for, kudos to anyone to get training on a horse. How many on CL are not broke at 5 + years old, that drives me crazy, and then we wonder why they go to slaughter. I don't think she was looking for anything unrealistic, and I feel that trainer took the opportunity away from that horse to be a good equine citizen.


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## Cherie

Well, actually if the 'elitists' think that only World Class competitive horses are worthy of training and that any horses worth training should receive at least $20,000.00 dollars or more in professional training by World class trainers, maybe they think all the others SHOULD go to slaughter. Maybe they also think that the 95%+ of horse owners that only consider their riding passion to be recreational and be a hobby and never intend or desire to ride competitively (much less at a World level) should all just ship their junk horses to slaughter and find another hobby. 

I've shown at World Championship and National Championship AQHA and Arabian shows. I've sold many horses, both trained and prospects, to high level owners that went on and won World Championships (one won 8 AQHA World Championships and won his last one a year ago at age 16) and I sent one we raised and started to a World Champion Reined Cowhorse Trainer just last winter, but I greatly prefer dealing with and selling horses to recreational riders. 

Now I know why. Cherie


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## smrobs

^^:clap:


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## Elana

Really it boils down to this. If you are training a horse yourself you probably will do it differently.. maybe take more time.. then if you send the horse out to a pro. 

Yes.. there are dressage trainers who take a LOOOONG time to back a horse and so forth.. but here you are building a horse for one thing if the horse is good enough. It takes years.. 

But to get a horse backed and reasonable and a foundation laid (on an unbroken horse) you just get to it. Most professional trainers will get that horse pretty good in 60-90 days. 

Will the horse do a piaffe? heavens no! That was not the question being asked. What was being asked is a horse that understands how to walk, trot, canter and stop.. maybe back up.. in 30-60 days. Most pros get it done in that time frame. I have gotten it done in that time frame. 

I have also done the other.. ground driving for miles and so forth.. but mostly on a young horse I cannot ride or cannot ride for miles. You can get a lot done (and yourself in great shape) doing all that. You can't be doing that with clients horses and expect to get paid. 

Is a horse with 60 days of training ready for a world title? Usually not.. Usually they need a lot more work. 

Of course the classical dressage folks also were aghast that I would back a two year old and were aghast that I started horses in a bosal and mecate. 

But it was OK. These same horses went on later to be their horses.. I was just laying foundations.. not building houses.


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## Mochachino

I've been working with my gelding since he was 8 month old, tons of ground work, and up till 3 1/2 had been ground driven, saddled, bitted, everything...pressure on his back and had backed him a few times. He was at the trainers for 2 months after all of this. Yup, came back a horse that can do everything you wanted and expected of your horse virtually untouched in 1 1/2 months. To me training is not a rush, sure you have an end goal but I never but a timeline on that and we get there when we get there. It isn't about catching the horse, throwing on a bridle and a saddle and riding. There is a lot more training IMO that has to go on first before that. JMHO


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## SnowCowgirl

I just wanted to say that, again, horseforum hasn't disapointed haha. So many different responses and opinions. My reponses on here so far have been limited because I've only had internet access on my iphone which is SO frustrating to type on!!!

I understand that a horse which is destined for higher competition obviously needs to have more specific and careful training. And I totally agree that it's the way to go! But, that is NOT where this guy is heading and most definitely is not where I'm going at this point in my life. I'm freshly out of college and I spend my time chasing jobs all over Canada. Do I have time to compete in ANYTHING or refine my horses' training? No. I scarcely have the time and money to ride them as it is. A lot of the time spent with them is just brushing and hanging out since I spend all my riding time working with the 3 year old I'm breaking in exchange for board! (ironic, yes?) 

But I will find a way to keep them in my lives. The crappy part comes when I budget to allow for training fees and come up with near nothing out of it anyway. FRUSTRATING, yes! Considering all I want to do with him at this point is trail ride.

Ah well  summer project I guess. But I reeeeeeeeeally didn't intend to have a $1300 (actually $1800 after considering trailering costs from where I moved) 4 year old grade project. Pretty pricy project in the horse world I grew up in. 

It's not the end of the world, but I seriously don't think I'll ever use a trainer again. Some of the opinions on here are (IMO) totally insane. The thing about horses is that there are very few definite "rights" and "wrongs". It makes it so frustrating and I HATE how I feel like I have to walk on eggshells around so many horse people. But to heck with 'em. I know what it takes to get a horse started and wandering down a trail or around an arena. And that's all I want or need at this point in my life. If I want more I'll work towards it. But that's ALL I need for my horses to know in the beginning.

In the end, the trainer promised me something that she didn't anywhere NEAR deliver. That was walk, trot, canter, move off pressure, have his feet handled, and allow himself to be caught. I didn't get most of that. But on the other hand, I likely prevented that uncatchable, wild-eyed, quick hind-footed gelding from ending up in the meat pen. I suppose that's worth it *shrugs*


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## MGTS

So sorry! I was looking yesterday for an update on your project. This was not the update I was hoping to find :-(

And it wasnt like you were asking much either in the 45 days of training. Crap.

Remember I sent my stud colt out the same time you did - he is home and doing fabulous after 37 days at the trainer (he kept him at no charge an extra week for me due to weather & said they had a lightbulb moment the last week and he really wanted the extra week to set that moment in stone). And all I asked for was about the same you did - w/t/c (though I didnt push for the canter left it if he was ready physically), stand tied, ground manners kept up, and trailering improved. I got back a colt that rides out solo or in a group, will go out after dark with minimal "spook" (plenty of look but I'm good with that given the shadows), works gates from the saddle, loads, stands tied not just at the barn but to the trailer at the arena, walk & trots & has been cantered a few times (no buck but still "finding his balance"). I mean if my guy can manage that in that little time ~ given it rained 3 of the 5 weeks he was gone, and he had 4 days "off" due to a bit of snotty nose. 

Then heck 2 months surely your guy should have had a bit more than what you got for your money I should think anyways!


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## SnowCowgirl

MGTS, I'm glad to hear that things worked out well for you!! 

Atlas is doing alright but I still haven't gotten on him. I've bridled him a few times and although it's difficult (he started out headshy and still doesn't like having his ears handled), it CAN be done. The first time he acted like a baby who'd never had a bit in his mouth but he forgot about it after a while. I ground drove him the other day and I really strongly suspect that's the first work he's had done with a bit. Again, not a big deal because I have started colts, but certainly not to be expected after coming home from "training" in my mind *shrugs*

He also spooked and pulled away from me the other day while I was handling his feet after saddling and began a series of HUGE bucks which has definitely got me un-nerved. She said he didn't buck the entire time he was with her which may be true, but he sure bucked this day :s If I wasn't nervous of this horse then, I am now. That's the biggest problem - he scares me a bit.

I'm going to continue working him and see how things go. I'm not totally bonded to him so am not completely opposed to selling him but I'd like to try to get most of my money back out of him which will be impossible if I can't ride him haha. Ah well, we'll see how it goes  What I'd love to do is send him to work for my dad packing in the mountains for 3 months but I'm 3000km from home now, ugh! I think that'd be the best thing in the world for him.


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## Celeste

He probably didn't buck at the trainer's place because he most likely was in the barn eating feed rather than working.


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## oliveoats

Give him time, don't expect quick magic. Good training is never quick, in my experience at least. I had a similar story with my horse. I bought him on his 5th birthday, and he had last been handled on his first birthday when he was sent to his previous owner's and in between he sat in a pasture. 

I used a trainer as a mentor, but participated in much of the training as the body. Trainer's brain, my body. We spent three months on ground work... THREE MONTHS before someone got on him. I was very upset that it took so long, but when I got on him for the first time, I was sitting on a horse that was 'broke'. He tensed up when I first got on, and was pretty nervous, but I already had turns, brakes, backing, and go. 

While training can take a long long time, I think spending more time on the beginning stuff can really help a horse in the long run. 

A horse with constant handling that trusts people may be able to do all of that within a month and a half. Our horses didn't have that start. If I were you I would find a trainer willing to start over from the ground, and do it slow and easy. A month and a half is far to short for a horse that came from the background both of ours did.


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## SnowCowgirl

well here is my boy, just got finished an 11 day trip in the mountains. He who "never bucks" (I asked the trainer, may as well start saying the name now - Amy Moffitt - Me: "has he bucked?"... Her: "No!!! Never!! he just SCOOTS"... by the way I never did get a response to the angry email I sent her. Surprising since all the ones regarding money went through). Beyond the fact that he's bucked a few times undersaddle BEFORE the trip (post-training), he also dumped the pack 7 times on day one, 3 times day two, and once day 6 (been a while since I've seen a horse kick his heels so high and I've worked on the trail for several years!!!)

Anyway here he is around day 5 hauling logs back to camp for firewood. Plans to get on him in the next few days while I have a horse worthy guide around to dally me up to a good rope horse. Atlas DOES buck but he stops if you yell loud enough and distract him, which is a plus 

Maybe a bit cowboy.... but that's okay. One day when we're at 4th level dressage with 6 months of longe-linining maybe we'll look back and laugh? won't he look good in a flower ringed dressage pen?


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## SnowCowgirl

argh i dont think that photo attached, sorry...


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## Celeste

If he successfully (even with a few bucking fits) carried a pack for 11 days, I believe you have a good start to a broke horse. 

I couldn't see the pictures.


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## SnowCowgirl

here we go 

and yeah I think so too. Packing 'em is still my favorite way to get them started.


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## FlyGap

So glad to hear you guys are making headway!
Looks awesome! 

How cool to work a horse like that, then train them to go into the dressage ring! What a hoot! I love it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal

It is important to get references for people that train your horses or your children.


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## SnowCowgirl

FlyGap, he's going to be a well rounded boy for sure! He's super bold and can actually jump (he's cleared my arena fence lol), and has a huge beautiful trot and gorgeous canter compared to any horse I've owned so far. The plan is to get into eventing someday  He's been a challenge for sure and obviously there have been setbacks but this trip was the best thing in the world for him, he was a LOT different by the end of it.


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## FlyGap

Take me, take me next time!
Good job on the foundation, I bet he was different! That face says mom this is harrrrddd work!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## flytobecat

That's awesome! Nothing like work to settle out a green horse.


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## Saddlebag

Or the old cowboy saying that it takes wet saddle blankets to settle a horse down.


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## stevenson

I understand your frustration. If you and a trainer agree that for x amt of dollars, I will have this horse with a bit in his mouth, saddled , ridden , stopping, turning , able to p/u feet , they should do as they stated. IF they cannot, they should refund the money . Put the money where their brag is. to many rip off trainers. Always some excuse, horse is dumb , horse is mean , blah blah blah. What it means is that they cannot do as they state. Glad you you have your guy working out . I still have a draft mix that wont accept the bit. Dont know what the 'trainer' did to him , we gave up and got a hackamore .
and by stopping and turning.. not on a high level, but actually stopping when asked to stop , and turning when ask for a turn, not a dime turns , and does not even have to be a smooth transition, just a turn, able to trot when asked, and able to canter when asked and there should be some leads in there, not perfect everytime , but there.


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## SnowCowgirl

yup, that's about the sum of it stevenson. Things are moving along with Atlas now for sure, but I didn't really have any doubt that it would. Like I said, I've started colts before... just thought I'd save myself the time and pay someone else to do it. What really happened is that I paid someone to accomplish nothing and ended up doing the work myself anyway! But in the end the pack trip helped BIG time.

Rode Atlas tonight for the first time  He was wonderful, COMPLETELY calm about everything. I only got on/off a few times, turned a few circles and walked a length of the arena before calling it quits. To be honest I do still expect him to have a blowup or two (especially after the rodeo on day 6 of the trip for no apparent reason.... by that point we'd started packing the eggs on him because he was being SO good and was very careful not to bash the boxes into trees. Eggs didn't make it to 8 seconds). Tomorrow I'm going to get someone out in front of him on a steady old horse and go for a bit more of a tour.

So, yes, things are coming along now. I've learned a valuable lesson about getting references and checking in on the training progress often. It'll be a LONG time before I use a trainer again though. I wish I could post a poor review of this chick somewhere. But ah well


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## Pambam

I sympathise, I've been there myself

I sent one gelding to a younger unknown trainer, in under 60 days he was trail safe and it cost me not even $1000.

His half brother I sent to a well known recommended trainer who completely screwed him up, he was returned to me(after a bit of a em discussion)un rideable, with girth galls and saddle sores after just under 60 days, cost me $1800 for a train wreck, 6 months to heal up and the following year I sent him to another trainer who did a great job in a short time as I couldn't afford much

It's a bit of a lottery with trainers I'm afraid.

Glad your boy is getting better


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## cowgirllinda1952

I once sent a horse to a trainer, who in my opinion,didn't do a **** thing except leave her in a stall covered with flies,dirty and with no water. I doubt he even put one ride on her. And he was highly recommended.


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## YellowHorse48

SC...I'm too old anymore but started/problem horses for 55 yrs for other people and feel you got a raw deal on the training and didnt expect too much but you learned a valuable lesson on trainers. Looks like you have him on the right track now that you are working him yourself. Some time and lot of wet saddle blankets you'll have a good one.


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## Heinz57

So just to make everyone feel better, here I go.

I bought a 4 year old gelding last fall,( Nov), was told he was ready to go, has had someone on him and that was it.....perfect just the way I like them. So due to we didn't have the infrastructure quite in place and trying to finish fencing sent him back to the barn we bought him from.( he went there in June) I get the bright idea to have 30 days put on him, that was actually my birthday present. It felt pretty spendy but thought well worth it.

These people have pretty much ignored any contact from my husband and myself during this entire time, tried asking questions just wouldn't get a response. So finally mid Sept my DH get a hold of them, he will be home around Oct 1, ready to go. During some back and forth communication it comes out that the trainer feels that this horse needs months of ground work and he wouldn't recommend that I ride him..........they will send him home for me to work with this winter (??) and they will take him back in the spring.

I'm not into this for a lot, paid 1000 for the horse and sent him to them in June with 1000, as of last night we told the people had they been up front where the horse is, we would have never bought and their comment was we owe 650 in board..

I would understand if I sent this horse to them history unknown, this horse was born on their property and had never left the farm until he came to our place, poor horse tried to give him a chance, just haven't won the lottery yet.


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## Cherie

You got ******ed. Put in what ever term you like.

If you do not know what kind of job a trainer does for sure, you need to go check on the horse and watch a training session at least once a week. Tell the trainer up front that you want to do just that. It they are not OK with that, hunt for a different trainer. Any qualified trainer will not mind and will welcome you coming and watching them once a week. 

I would also arrange in advance for the trainer to let you ride the horse a couple of times at the end of the training time so that you can get the horse to do what the trainer has taught the horse. When I was training for the public, I always urged owners to do this and included it in the training fee. I wanted people to be happy with their horse and to know what their horse had learned and explain what they needed to do next to keep the training going in the right direction.

Keep in mind that no trainer wants you telling them what to do and they do not want someone hovering over them asking 1000 questions and killing their time. But if they mind you standing back out of the way and watching them ride / handle their horse, something is wrong. A few questions at the end of a session should be welcome.


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## LyraFreedom

*HI*

You bought a colt, let him be a wild horse till he is four them hand his 1500 pound animal over to a 160 pound person and expect the horse to be under saddle and cantering in six weeks. Your kidding me. This is the same as going out and getting a three year old mustang and telling someone to train it in six weeks!!! You were asking this person to do the impossible!!! This horse needed six week of ground work before you could even think about putting a bride on! Even the best trainers in the world can't train a mustang in six weeks.


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## smrobs

LyraFreedom said:


> You bought a colt, let him be a wild horse till he is four them hand his 1500 pound animal over to a 160 pound person and expect the horse to be under saddle and cantering in six weeks. Your kidding me. *This is the same as going out and getting a three year old mustang and telling someone to train it in six weeks!!!* You were asking this person to do the impossible!!! This horse needed six week of ground work before you could even think about putting a bride on! *Even the best trainers in the world can't train a mustang in six weeks*.


 
Frankly, I find your naiveté both amusing and offensive at the same time. Did you even read the rest of the thread? There are several members who posted in this thread that do exactly that, myself included.

And, just to prove you wrong on the bolded parts above. In 2004, some family friends adopted a 2 year old mustang stud. They brought him home and realized that he was actually wild, so they left him in an arena by himself for an entire year. I bought him in 2005 as a 3 year old completely unhandled _stud_. Brought him home on Thursday and by that next Tuesday, I was riding him through cattle w/t/c.

Now, almost 9 years later, he's my go-to horse for anything and everything.


So, tell me again how even the "best horse trainer in the world can't train a mustang in 6 weeks"? :think:


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## BlueSpark

> Your kidding me. *This is the same as going out and getting a three year old mustang and telling someone to train it in six weeks!!!* You were asking this person to do the impossible!!!


a) read the rest of the thread and b)you don't know what you are talking about. A horse that is "trained" wrong will take far longer to get riding well than a wild one. I have worked with a two year old mustang that went from wild to on her back in a month, and that was working with her very sparingly and lightly, as she had a foal at her side. I had another 4 yo filly that was spoiled on the ground with treats, but never halter broke. I had her halter broke and trail riding w/t/c in 30 days. I ended up selling her to a youth as a jumper a year later.

there may be some horses that are so messed up, determined or fearful that they need that much time, but the vast majority do not.


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## LyraFreedom

You guys are looking at trainers like some miracle workers. They are just like any other experienced horse person except they have the gut to get on a horse that could explode at any second!


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## COWCHICK77

LyraFreedom said:


> You guys are looking at trainers like some miracle workers. They are just like any other experienced horse person except they have the gut to get on a horse that could explode at any second!


Lyra, really, you should go back and read the whole thread. 

Point being, the trainer said she could have the horse ready in the set amount of time, which she didn't. There was a huge lack of communication between the horse owner and trainer.
Yes a good portion of this thread was devoted to whether a horse could be started in that amount of time and plenty of examples were given by those who have done it. The most recent example being smrobs on this page, who IS a trainer, not someone who sends her horses off to the trainer and expects miracles when they get back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mochachino

When I took my 3 year old to the trainer this past spring I took him first for an assessment that was about 1 1/2 hours long. He worked around with him on the ground, ground manners, yielding to the body, tarps, lounging, tacking up, everything. Then he rode him for a short while. After that we sat down and talked for about 1/2 an hour and he told me exactly where the horse was at, what he needed for training, what he could do in 2 months. Loved the process. In 2 months I got exactly what he said I would get. I didn't tell him what I wanted, except that I wanted him out on the trails a bit, he told me what he could do in that amount of time. I knew what I was going to get and was very happy with the results and would recommend this trainer to anyone I know.


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## Zexious

Lyra, plenty of us have trained horses ourselves. I don't think anyone in this thread expects a trainer to be a 'miracle worker'. What we DO expect is to get what we paid for. IE-if someone advertises that I will have a saddle broke horse in 30 days for $1,300. Then I sure as heck better get it.


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## faye

ropinbiker said:


> If I was the OP I would be upset! She didn't get 2 months(or 1.5) worth of training. When I started outside colts a few years ago I guaranteed a horse that knew all 3 gaits under saddle, had a great stop, have at least 20 rides, and be used to a bridle/bit....most horses only need a day or two of "ground work"...we have gotten into "babyin" horses too much...just like some folks' kids that are running amuck in restaurants these days...no discipline!!


I'd have loved to see you try it with my lad! he'd have killed you. 



~*~anebel~*~ said:


> And people wonder why no one will train horses....
> 
> Sorry but especially after this thread, there is no way in heck I'd ever take on a horse for training, especially not starting one. Because God Forbid if you want to do any ground work with it.
> Next colt starter I meet I'm going to hug, because they are the ones that have to put up with this unrealistic crap.


I agree, over here (UK) any trainer who says less than 6 weeks for a well handled youngster (by well handled meaning leads, ties up, wears a rug, often already bitted, worn a surcingle etc) is viewed with a lot of suspicion. 

If you break a horse it is worth doing properly and in doing it properly you make it very very eassy to take the horse on from there. 
I cringe when someone says they dont longrein before riding, It is an essential part of their education and makes schooling them afterwards that much easier. If you get a class of youngsters the ones that have ben longreined are blatently obvious as they are normaly the ones that are stronger, fitter and more advanced in thier schooling. My lad doesnt know how to move incorrectly undersaddle, he travels in a lovely outline stretching correctly over his back from the first few steps of walk, he does this because he learnt how to do it in long reins and has known nothing else undersaddle, It is a babyish outline but advancing his schooling is that much easier because he has correct basics. 

If you only train a horse as a trail horse you severely limit its market, over here 99% of non "competition" horses are trained to be allrounders who can do a low level dressage test, a round of show jumping, a bit of pony club games, a bit of trail riding, schooling, lessons etc some are better at it than others but a good allrounder has the biggest market even if it is never going to excel at anything and is ugly as sin.


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## Zexious

^It's not a matter of "unrealistic crap", it's a matter of advertising. If you tell me you can break my horse in thirty days, and charge accordingly, that's what I expect to receive. That's bad business.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Zexious said:


> ^It's not a matter of "unrealistic crap", it's a matter of advertising. If you tell me you can break my horse in thirty days, and charge accordingly, that's what I expect to receive. That's bad business.


So if a politician tells you he's going to get the US out of debt in 5 years and decrease taxes - you will believe him and vote for him?

Consumer/voter/buyer beware. Have realistic expectations, regardless of what anyone says because talk is cheap. I don't care if someone says they can take an untouched horse and make it a safe trail horse in 6 weeks, or even if they've done it once or twice. It's still not realistic. 6 months - sure. 3 months OK if you're good - but the better the trainer the price will adjust accordingly. Supply and demand. A good trainer will charge a lot more than $1300 to break a horse to the point it's ridable by an AA on trails/in spooky situations.

IMO current trainer is a lot more realistic.


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## Zexious

^I think you're missing my point. 

Firstly, politicians are elected officials. That's slightly different than someone you hire under contract.

Secondly, I wasn't claiming that $1,300 is an unreasonable amount to charge for training. Not by a long shot. That seems fairly reasonable for a month of training.

What I am saying is, it is bad business to advertise something that you cannot provide. But, I guess the horse world is full of people that just don't care, or assume that the person paying for the service must be of subpar intellect.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Zexious said:


> ^I think you're missing my point.
> 
> Firstly, politicians are elected officials. That's slightly different than someone you hire under contract.
> 
> Secondly, I wasn't claiming that $1,300 is an unreasonable amount to charge for training. Not by a long shot. That seems fairly reasonable for a month of training.
> 
> What I am saying is, it is bad business to advertise something that you cannot provide. But, I guess the horse world is full of people that just don't care, or assume that the person paying for the service must be of subpar intellect.


And that's why I say to use common sense. If you see a "world champ quality QH" for sale for $300, what will you think. Trainer says "I will have the horse broke in a month w/t/c started on x-rails and trail ridden" then there's some smoke being blown. Coach says "Oh you will be in the WEG next year!!" again, use common sense. None of these things are true. It is up to the consumer/customer/client to choose where to put their money. It's not the trainers fault if they told you they can have the horse doing whatever because they've done it a few times before and it's unrealistic but you put the horse in training anyways. If a trainer told my they could have an untouched horse broke w/t/c in 6 weeks I'd laugh! Because it's a joke. Some horses it might be possible. But most individuals need that amount of ground work, long lining and lunging. We start messing with the horses beginning of their 3 year old year and don't expect solid w/t/c undersaddle until the following winter. And if they are really immature - wait even longer.

Equate it to reading/writing - takes kids a heck of a long time to learn that, it's not fair to condense it. Basically all of elementary is for learning to read/write and as the internet has shown us, often that isn't even enough! Some kids are whizzes and end up graduating high school at 14. That doesn't mean every child, or every horse, can handle that time frame.


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## Golden Horse

*SHRUGS* different horses for different courses...

Around here there is a preference from colt starters to have something not handled, better a clean slate than something that someone has already messed up.

Most will want them for 60 days and it that time will have them walk, trot and lope, that is just fact. 

Doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks, that is how it is done here. Are they trained finished horses, hell no, but they would be expected to come home being able to walk trot and lope, soft in the face, a good stop and be able to turn, and move away from the leg. There are no 'gaping holes' in their training, they are trained by working people who expect that the owners want a horse to actually ride. They have a foundation, it's up to you to build the rest.

If you want to take 6 months, that's fine, the only colt I have taken from birth to saddle, I kind of left until he was 2, then spent 2 years ground working him before getting on, he still had holes, because I am no trainer.

Still comes back to if someone tells me that they can have him going under saddle in 60 days and $1300 that's what I would expect to come home. It sounds totally reasonable time frame and price to me, and I am with the OP in being disappointed that it didn't even get close by the sounds of it.


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## BlueSpark

again, I think we need to read over the whole thread. It is not unrealistic to expect a horse(with a good attitude and some handling, not one with issues or previous poor handling) to be comfortable packing a person, to the extent that they are not fearful of a saddle/bridle/rider and not disrespectful, so they are capable of w/t or w/t/c. Not flawless, but has done it. The OP wanted the horse started, so they could continue the training, not a broke horse, just one with the first rides put on it. My filly can calmly w/t and she is on her second ride.

moreover, as has been stated previously, the issue mainly with the fact that the trainer did not communicate properly. I would be very frustrated if I met with a trainer, who said it was no problem to get to the level I wanted in a certain time frame, then they did virtually nothing with the horse in that time frame. I would expect, if my horse was harder to deal with than expected, that I would be contacted. early on.

as much as "buyer beware" is applicable, so is false advertising. Any ways, OP, its good to hear he is finally making some progress


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## faye

It is buyer beware. Horses are individuals. The first trainer I took Reeco to said she averages 6 weeks but untill she got the horse working she couldnt tell me how long it would take. In the end she gave up after 8 weeks and no progress. The next trainer told me she didnt promise anything and sure enough 7 weeks later she only had him longreining without exploding but he was still panicy.
The final trainer said she would take him for 4 weeks and see how she got on. She had him 9 weeks but finaly got him to the point where I could walk and trot and he was safe in traffic.

I continued the work and a year and a half later (if you dont include the time spent on box rest for his fractured pelvis) we competed and held our own at CHAPS national championship, we can do a decent prelim dressage test and working on novice level. A better rider could probably have him working at elementary level (which I believe is a 2nd or 3rd level test depending on the test)


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## MaximasMommy

This thread was totally worth reading through, just for those beautiful trail pictures. And not that my opinion counts, but you got totally ripped off!


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## SnowCowgirl

Haha thanks Maximas!

Everyone who has recently started arguing on this thread again (or debating, or whatever)

The point is, I ASKED THE TRAINER what I could expect in 1.5 months. I told her everything about my colt. She said w/t/c, no problem. I even asked her AGAIN to emphasize that he had never been touched and she said no worries.

I believed her because I have had horses going undersaddle w/t/c in two months or less AND I AM NOT A PROFESSIONAL. These horses have gone on to the show ring (only provincial level), to work on the trail, working cattle, and to be kids horses. So I figured that if I can do it, then she can.

I got a horse back who bucked the first couple times I saddled him. A horse who I WAS NOT at ALL comfortable getting on. A horse who was "guaranteed" to go w/t/c.

I screwed up - I was a long distance from the trainer and did not have the opportunity to check in. Through texts and calls she said he was doing "great!!!" all the time.

This is a woman who shows all over the states, Canada, trains horses, and teaches riding lessons out of a town near Edmonton.

I KNOW I got ripped off. I was promised one thing and did not receive anything NEAR what she said I would get for the money. That's what this thread is about.

I realize some people may think that it takes months to get a horse started under saddle and there is nothing wrong with that. We all know the horse world is incredibly diverse. But in the horse world I grew up in it is common practice to have a colt out on the trail within a few training sessions. They grow up to be happy, healthy horses with a job, good enough for me and good enough for many people out there. 

Even if this lady was some high class trainer who needs 6 months to start a colt undersaddle I should have seen some sort of results, shouldn't I have? and shouldnt she have TOLD me she'd accomplish nothing in 30-45 days?

I think so


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## ropinbiker

faye said:


> I'd have loved to see you try it with my lad! he'd have killed you.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, over here (UK) any trainer who says less than 6 weeks for a well handled youngster (by well handled meaning leads, ties up, wears a rug, often already bitted, worn a surcingle etc) is viewed with a lot of suspicion.
> 
> If you break a horse it is worth doing properly and in doing it properly you make it very very eassy to take the horse on from there.
> I cringe when someone says they dont longrein before riding, It is an essential part of their education and makes schooling them afterwards that much easier. If you get a class of youngsters the ones that have ben longreined are blatently obvious as they are normaly the ones that are stronger, fitter and more advanced in thier schooling. My lad doesnt know how to move incorrectly undersaddle, he travels in a lovely outline stretching correctly over his back from the first few steps of walk, he does this because he learnt how to do it in long reins and has known nothing else undersaddle, It is a babyish outline but advancing his schooling is that much easier because he has correct basics.
> 
> If you only train a horse as a trail horse you severely limit its market, over here 99% of non "competition" horses are trained to be allrounders who can do a low level dressage test, a round of show jumping, a bit of pony club games, a bit of trail riding, schooling, lessons etc some are better at it than others but a good allrounder has the biggest market even if it is never going to excel at anything and is ugly as sin.


Faye, really?? Killed me? If that is the case then he must be a true glue factory horse! (that's a joke...and no, he would not of killed me...he would have been dog tired at the end of the first day though...as would've I) I did train a horse that used to run at and attempt to bite, kick, or run over anyone that came into his stall...even to feed him. I had him loping in the round pen on the 6th day and his 3rd ride. The first day he did try to kill me while i was on the ground schooling him. He is the only horse I ever had to actually hit on the head with my training stick(while moving to the side like a matador to avoid his teeth and feet). After about 3 hours of this he decided I could move his feet whereever I wanted to as long as I didn't make him run....the 2nd day he tried me again, for about 30 minutes this time, then he began to see things my way. He is the only horse I had to have another person on a 2nd horse help me get him "going" in the round pen. After I had them help me motivate him to the lope that first time, he was golden. 

A total of 33 days(it rained some on me, so I couldn't train him everday) I returned him to his owner.....you coud ride him in the field(he had a 5 or so acre pasture) at the w/t/c with a loose rein. He didn't neck rain, move off of just leg pressure, but I didn't promise that either, and never would in 30 days. He did follow his nose, give his hip when asked, and he was developing a real nice stop...at the w/t/c.

I have two of my youngsters in training now. On the 3rd ride(5th day of training) we are, you guessed it...w/t/cantering off an easy leg squeeze and cluck.....as a matter of fact, my 17 year old daughter was the first to ride them both at the canter(with me on the ground to help control)....I would not have let her back them if they were unsafe.


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## SnowCowgirl

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> And that's why I say to use common sense. If you see a "world champ quality QH" for sale for $300, what will you think. Trainer says "I will have the horse broke in a month w/t/c started on x-rails and trail ridden" then there's some smoke being blown. Coach says "Oh you will be in the WEG next year!!" again, use common sense. None of these things are true. It is up to the consumer/customer/client to choose where to put their money. It's not the trainers fault if they told you they can have the horse doing whatever because they've done it a few times before and it's unrealistic but you put the horse in training anyways. If a trainer told my they could have an untouched horse broke w/t/c in 6 weeks I'd laugh!



so basically you're saying that if you can find a potential client who is naive enough to fool, you should take that chance and fool them?

As stated over, and over, and over - I've had colts going w/t/c in less than the time she spent with Atlas. So, I figured that she could do it too. I outlined that I am NOT training him for anything specific, that he just needs to know the basics. I am not aiming for the show ring with him, SHE KNEW THAT. I figured that if I can do it, so can she. She upright said to me that she would have him going w/t/c in 45 days. Even so far as to re-clarify this to me both verbally and via email. 

This thread was not meant to argue about how long it starts to take a horse because obviously we all differ on opinions in that department. The issue is in what a trainer promised via email, verbal conversation, and contract and DID NOT DELIVER. For the money I spent I should have thrown a pack on him and taken him to the bush in the beginning.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

SnowCowgirl said:


> so basically you're saying that if you can find a potential client who is naive enough to fool, you should take that chance and fool them?
> 
> As stated over, and over, and over - I've had colts going w/t/c in less than the time she spent with Atlas. So, I figured that she could do it too. I outlined that I am NOT training him for anything specific, that he just needs to know the basics. I am not aiming for the show ring with him, SHE KNEW THAT. I figured that if I can do it, so can she. She upright said to me that she would have him going w/t/c in 45 days. Even so far as to re-clarify this to me both verbally and via email.
> 
> This thread was not meant to argue about how long it starts to take a horse because obviously we all differ on opinions in that department. The issue is in what a trainer promised via email, verbal conversation, and contract and DID NOT DELIVER. For the money I spent I should have thrown a pack on him and taken him to the bush in the beginning.


No, my point is as a client, you need to be able to have a reasonable expectation and be able to weed out the bad eggs - regardless of how much they talk. Talk is cheap and many folks build their businesses on it. Anyone who claims to be able to produce unrealistic results is probably blowing smoke. It's being able to recognize this and steer clear of the crazies. Which is difficult, I know, and believe me I've been there. Not trying to justify what the trainer did or didn't say or do (still haven't heard her side of it) but in this market it's buyer beware. Especially for bargain basement price.

But I'm glad the horse is somewhere now where he will get the time he needs. Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beau159

SnowCowgirl said:


> I screwed up


It think these words sum it up. 

The trainer gave you a huge red flag of not working with your horse for the first 15 days. I would have brought my horse home THEN. And I wouldn't keep sending the trainer money if I didn't think they were meeting certain expectations. Text messages are NOT a good way to moniter your horse's progress. Every horse is going to progress differently in training, and you often don't know how they are going to progress until you start working with them. I've had some colts that I entered in shows in 30 days, some that were still in the round pen at 30 days, and some that I ended up selling at 30 days because I was sick of dealing with their nasty bucking (there's too many good horses to deal with ill-tempered ones).

Yes, you got ripped off by your trainer. But you really didn't do much to help yourself from that. Hard lesson learned. 

You've been complaining that you don't have time (nor want to deal with) a green "unbroke" 4-yr-old colt at this point in time. Nothing wrong with that, but instead of sending him for training for $1300 or $1800, why didn't you give him away and buy a 7-yr-old trained trail horse for $1500? (Easy to find right about now, with the way the market is.) Or why did you even take him on a trade in the first place, when you could have gotten cash for whatever it was that you sold? For the end goal you wanted, you really did not set yourself up for success. Again, hard lesson learned.

And just kinda curious since you've mentioned time and time again throughout this thread about ALL the horses you've trained successfully, and continue to insinuate that you can do better than this trainer did ..... How long has your horse been back, and what have you accomplished in that time frame? Are you going to be able to walk, trot, canter, direct rein, move off pressure, and pick up his feet in 45 days? (Although we know he still can't pick up his feet, because you said the farrier took an hour to do his feet. That is YOUR responsibility to teach; not the poor farrier.) 

Probably not.

And clearly you are now seeing that your horse isn't going to be an easy one to train, like all the others. Every horse is different.


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## Zexious

^It was my understanding that OP was not actively visiting the horse while he was in training, and only later found out that he hadn't been worked for the first fifteen days?

Also, she has mentioned that she got her horses to w/t/c nicely under saddle within forty five. Maybe she just doesn't have the time?


I'm still so appalled that we are reprimanding the OP as opposed to the trainer. Maybe I'm stuck in the past but, to me, a contract is a contract. If I pay for something, that's what I'll be getting.


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## beau159

Zexious said:


> I'm still so appalled that we are reprimanding the OP as opposed to the trainer. Maybe I'm stuck in the past but, to me, a contract is a contract. If I pay for something, that's what I'll be getting.


Unfortunately, we live in a society where people aren't always honest. That's why you've got to watch your own back. No, it shouldn't be that way, but it is. 

Yes, a contract is a contract but I doubt it was actually written on paper that the trainer 100% money-back-guaranteed that the horse would do x,y,z at the end of 45 days. We all know that horses are unpredictable and it would be impossible to legally enforce such a contract. 

If you allow yourself to taken advantage of (whether or not you know better), it's just one of life's many lessons. Move on and learn from it.


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## SnowCowgirl

beau159 said:


> It think these words sum it up.
> 
> The trainer gave you a huge red flag of not working with your horse for the first 15 days. I would have brought my horse home THEN. And I wouldn't keep sending the trainer money if I didn't think they were meeting certain expectations.


She did work with him for the first 15 days. There was a 2 week period in the middle where she admitted that she did not.




beau159 said:


> You've been complaining that you don't have time (nor want to deal with) a green "unbroke" 4-yr-old colt at this point in time. Nothing wrong with that, but instead of sending him for training for $1300 or $1800, why didn't you give him away and buy a 7-yr-old trained trail horse for $1500? (Easy to find right about now, with the way the market is.) Or why did you even take him on a trade in the first place, when you could have gotten cash for whatever it was that you sold? For the end goal you wanted, you really did not set yourself up for success. Again, hard lesson learned.


Maybe I'm wrong here, but though I'd never used a trainer before I thought that sending a horse to a trainer was a viable option? No time or location to do it myself, why not pay someone else to do it? Other people do that all the time. I AM in a position now this winter to break him (which I am doing). However, at the beginning of this summer I was not - due to time and location constraints.

I took him in trade because at that point in my life I was in a position to start him a year later. However, circumstances changed. Yes, I could have sold him. I admit I was a bit attached - what is an unbroken unregistered 4 year old going to go for? meat. I felt like I owed him something since it's MY circumstances that let him sit untouched until he was four



beau159 said:


> And just kinda curious since you've mentioned time and time again throughout this thread about ALL the horses you've trained successfully, and continue to insinuate that you can do better than this trainer did ..... How long has your horse been back, and what have you accomplished in that time frame? Are you going to be able to walk, trot, canter, direct rein, move off pressure, and pick up his feet in 45 days? (Although we know he still can't pick up his feet, because you said the farrier took an hour to do his feet. That is YOUR responsibility to teach; not the poor farrier.)


Since he has been back I had to leave for work again, however I did have a month to work him. In the first week he got to where you can easily handle all four of his feet with no problems. My dad trimmed and shoed him before our hunting trip with zero issues, I was very proud of Atlas  After that first week or so of working with his feet and doing groundwork I took him to the bush.

After the pack trip (11 days) I only got on him twice before I got sent out of province for work. Those rides were just at a walk. However he is long reining well, giving to the bit, and moving off of hand pressure. NONE of which he was doing when I got him back.

Like I mentioned, I'm gone now so haven't worked him again but will be starting again once I'm home. Amazingly, I thought I had a "very difficult" horse, but everything went VERY smoothly once I had the time to start working him

Yes, there is not a doubt in my mind that accomplished more than the lady I paid. I mention the colts that I have started in order to make it clear that I am not a complete noob when it comes to starting horses. 

*In the end, it's all good! Lesson learned. I GOT RIPPED OFF. But I shouldn't have trusted her like I did either. Atlas is doing well now and he's quickly becoming my little sweetheart.*


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## SnowCowgirl

beau159 said:


> Unfortunately, we live in a society where people aren't always honest. That's why you've got to watch your own back. No, it shouldn't be that way, but it is.
> 
> Yes, a contract is a contract but I doubt it was actually written on paper that the trainer 100% money-back-guaranteed that the horse would do x,y,z at the end of 45 days. We all know that horses are unpredictable and it would be impossible to legally enforce such a contract.


Actually, the expectations WERE written on paper. We did re-hash everything that had been talked about at the time that I was signing the contract and I did write these things down on the paper. But you're right, it would be pretty darn hard to legally do anything about it.

I'm not sure WHAT I would do differently next time except just plain not ever send a horse to a trainer again unless I know them personally.

I did speak to several different trainers, asked for recommendations from people, etc. I got a bad feeling from several of the trainers I spoke to. There were a couple who I liked but were booked up. There were a couple who said they needed me to call a day before I stopped over (red flag!). So, I went with Amy because she claimed to have an absolutely open-door policy, told me again and again how honest she is, etc. I got a good feeling even though I don't know anyone who has used her. Her prices were not any lower than any of the other trainers I looked into (price was not an issue when I was researching trainers, I looked at that AFTER)

I am NOT from Alberta or Saskatchewan (where I was living this summer, and where I wanted to find a trainer) which makes it 10x harder to find someone.

I absolutely should have stopped in to visit more often. I know that. And excuses are just excuses but I was living 3 hours away (so a total of 6 driving), and I foolishly relied on texts and phone calls for updates. Again, I trusted her too much and she definitely took advantage of that.


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## Zexious

I guess I was just raised differently than to say "I got ripped off. Oh well, my fault!" and just leave it at that. I think people should be honest. 

I do understand that horses are unpredictable. But, if things weren't going according to plan, then it is her duty (as a trainer that is being paid, UNDER CONTRACT) to contact the owner and explain that things aren't progressing the way that she would like, and then discuss with the owner the proper course of action. Whether that means some of her money back, an extension of time, or new goals... That would be for them to decide.

I guess I'm just sick of dishonest people in the industry, and then everyone saying "you should have known better".


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## beau159

OP: The good trainers ARE going to booked out quite in advance. It usually makes me raise my eyebrows if a trainer says they can get them in immediately. The few times I have used a trainer, I called a *year *ahead of time to get my name on the list and get my horse in when I wanted. But they do good work and they are worth the waiting for. 

I apologize for mis-reading your post, but I guess it would make me even _more _suspicious with red flags if she stopped working with him in the middle of it all, unless she had made you aware ahead of time that she was going to be gone on vacation or something of that nature (which doesn't sound like the case).

Did you actually get any references from friends for this Amy lady? Or just looked her up? I know you said you had references for other trainers who had a long wait list. For myself personally, I do a lot of background on a trainer before my horse goes there. 

Zexious: I'm not saying the trainer wasn't crooked. I don't think anyone is saying that. But simply _texting_ back and forth with the trainer is no way to ensure your horse is being taken care of or trained. That's where the OP went wrong and she already knows it. You've got to actually visit your horse on a regular basis. Yes, people are supposed to be honest. But some aren't. Different story if you've used the same trainer for years and know them well; then you may not need to stop in on a regular basis. But using a trainer for the first time? Yes, you need to stop in frequently. And if all you did was text instead and the trainer said "Yeah they are doing great!" well you can't really blame yourself too much for getting taken. It's quite easy to manipulate and lie to someone when you never see them in person. And sometimes you will still be lied to your face. This is not only true in the horse world, but absolutely true in real life. Sad what our society has become, but it is what it is.


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## pixelsandponies

This thread is interesting but absolutely exhausting to read and keep up with. I am truly shocked at how many people have beat up on the OP for things ranging from not taking more time to work with her horse _(the amount of time she works with the horse is her choice and dependent on her life and her circumstances, as long as the horse is happy and healthy and being cared for, I don't believe it's a horrible awful thing to leave a youngster in a field with little or no work as long as the owner has a plan for the horse's future, which the OP does)_ to having unrealistic expectations when she made the choice to invest in a trainer _(as many many people have already stated, the OP's expectations were not at all unrealistic)_, and many other things in between.

I won't continue to restate opinions that have already been stated here. However, I must say, the thing that really shocks me is how unsupportive and sometimes downright close-minded so many people have been on this thread. In the horse world, I have found that so much can be gained by being open-minded. So much can be lost by being close-minded. There is more than one way to do most things. What one person wants, another person might not want. What one person pays, another person might not need to pay. What one horse needs, another horse might not need. There are so many factors, and it seems like people are forgetting that. 

The OP has kept this horse well-fed and healthy. She realized she wasn't able to give him the time he needed as far as his training is concerned, so she made the choice to invest in a trainer. By doing those things, she is doing leaps and bounds more than most horse owners in the world do! Mistakes were made, but the important thing is that she did right by the horse and the horse is currently making progress and in a good place. _WHY can't we focus on that and keep the negativity to a minimum? _


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## SnowCowgirl

Thank you


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## SnowCowgirl

beau159 said:


> OP: The good trainers ARE going to booked out quite in advance. It usually makes me raise my eyebrows if a trainer says they can get them in immediately. The few times I have used a trainer, I called a *year *ahead of time to get my name on the list and get my horse in when I wanted. But they do good work and they are worth the waiting for.


No doubt about this! If I EVER do it again, I'd go with someone who does have a waiting list. It's still hard to know though when you're going in blind like me. I live in the Yukon, went to school in southern Alberta, worked this summer in northern Saskatchewan and am now in BC. I never know where I'm going to be a few months down the road. When I found out I was going to SK this summer I was left without a place to start Atlas. It was either sell him or send him to a trainer. I searched forums for recommendations, asked on here, and asked my family in Alberta but basically didn't come up with anything viable. From that point I pretty much had to go with gut feeling. I tried to do background on a couple different trainers but I guess with me being new to the game or SOMETHING I was unable to turn up anything helpful.

I KNOW I should have stopped in more and I sure as hell would have if there was any way that I possibly could. Phone calls to her reassured me that he was doing well and things were going relatively to plan. Not the case!

I wasted my money. It's partially my fault that I got ripped off, but it's HER fault that she ripped me off, I don't see how anyone can look at that any other way. I did attempt to contact her after I got him back and NEVER heard back from her. It ****es me off because this chick makes her living off of training and lessons. 

My first clue should have been the one time that I DID stop in to visit and she kept calling him a mustang in front of other people hahahaha. I'd TOLD her that he was a draft/paint mix lol. 

Anyway, it sucks that I had to leave home for work again because I'm going to have to re-start with him when I get back, but it is what it is.

In other news - one more reason I'm proud of him, he is GUTSY. Nothing on the trail phased him much after the first day, he'd cross anything, climb over anything, and go through anything. He broke a 4" tree off with his pack box and didn't even think twice about it lol, and creek crossings that some of the other horses were jittery about were no big deal - he'd just leap over them (not good to have a pack horse who jumps stuff but oh well hah) When it came to swimming the big river at the beginning and end of the trip I was worried that there was NO way he was going in... but he bailed in like an absolute champ! I just threw the shank over his back and away he went.


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## SnowCowgirl

I guess that in the end I hope this thread saves someone else from making a mistake. I still believe that this was a pretty crappy way for a professional to run a business, and I DO still believe that (as the thread title says) I wasted $1300. But it's done.


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## faye

ropinbiker said:


> Faye, really?? Killed me? If that is the case then he must be a true glue factory horse! (that's a joke...and no, he would not of killed me...he would have been dog tired at the end of the first day though...as would've I) .


No you wouldnt have, you would at the least have been in hospital if you took your normal approach with him. Most people have told me to have him shot and the BEST trainer in the UK who only ever takes on RANK and problem horses took 9 weeks to even have him walking and trotting under saddle (and yes he originaly went away for 6 weeks I was wanting w,t,c under saddle, took 9 weeks and only w,t achieved but I'm well versed enough in horses to know when it goes wrong it takes more time)

To give you an idea of the horses my trainer takes on, she only ever has 3 in at a time, when Reeco was there the 2 others that were there were a 16.2hh warmblood with potential to go to 3* eventing (international level) that a major international rider had brought in to her, they couldnt break it in (and they have broken some quirky stuff in) and when they tried to long rien it, it bolted out through the wall of the indoor school, through the closed gate, 6 miles up the A62 (dual carriage way with 70mph limit) bounced off several cars along the way and ended up in a field bound up in its lines and still thrashing, as it was so valuable that at this point they sent it to my trainer.
The other horse she had there was 15.2hh and had taken to throwing itself over backwards everytime it was asked to do anything.


My horse often tried to kill himself rather than cooperate with us. He galloped head first into a brick wall the first time a saddle was put on him, fracturing his skull. My trainer has 10ft panels on her round pen, he tried to go over the top of them and then through them (and succeeded in going through). 

He was not dangerous to handle on the floor in any way shape or form, he could be handled by small children, he was bitted and he lunged like a dream before he was sent to her. He was not spoilt as I cant stand spoilt horses, he wouldnt dream of coming for you with feet or hooves, infact i'm fairly sure it never crossed his mind that he could. 

Now, with a lot of time and patience my horse is out competing at national level and holding his own (well not right this second, right now he is probably engaging in his favorite pasttime or digging himself a wallowing hole and pretending to be a hippo)


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## smrobs

But Faye, you were told by your trainers that he was going to need more time. I've done that myself, told a customer what I can normally get done in a set amount of time only to call them a few days later and tell them that some behavior had popped up and caused the training to stop progressing. 

The point is, the trainer needs to make the owner aware of something like that, not just wait until the end of the time, take the money, and _then_ make excuses about how "they didn't have time" or "the horse has a behavioral problem" when they return a horse that isn't rideable.


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## Zexious

^I love you, smrobs! <3 That's exactly the attitude with which this should be handled.


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## ropinbiker

Faye, yes, if, after a day or so I would know if he was going to be somewhat "normal"...then I would not have guaranteed he would safely w/t/c after 30 days; I did have a horse that rared up everytime she was asked to trot/canter....I told the owner I would need an extra 5-10 days and would charge them an extra $100/week(plus feed) until she was safe....

I am still a bit perplexed by your focus on me getting killed or put in the hospital...


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## Ripplewind

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Yes, they were. The horse will take far longer than 6 weeks to be broke, regardless of how much $ you pay. And if some cowboy wants to bronc out the horse in a week for $100 then all the power to him, but the horse will still not be broke.
> 
> I get irked because this is the prevailing attitude and it wrecks horses and makes trainers lives not fun. When owners expect a show ready horse in 2 months it is not realistic, but of course the customer is always right...
> Not picking on you, just be realistic with your expectations. *Should a toddler read at a Grade 4 level in 6 weeks?*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with what you've said. Being realistic keeps us, for the most part, because accidents do happen, from being disappointed.

But I bolded this because, funny thing is, I was one of those toddlers.


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## Zexious

^ xD I was too, actually!


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## ropinbiker

Ripplewind said:


> I agree with what you've said. Being realistic keeps us, for the most part, because accidents do happen, from being disappointed.
> 
> But I bolded this because, funny thing is, I was one of those toddlers.


I get irked at folks that don't read and then address something totally differnt from the original post...the horse was supposed to be rideable and w/t/c safely .... NOT be a premier show horse/finished bridle horse...

There are numerous trainers, ranches, etc.(check out the WYO ranch sale horses -- they are riding them at all speeds, safely, out on the OPEN range after 3 days....they do it EVERY year with DIFFERENT apprentices helping under the same head trainer...and their horses are very prized possessions); it is VERY rare that a horse can't be made to ride at all gates, safely, with a loose rein or collected, move off the legs, stop well, yeild the hind and forequarters, stand ground tied, and walk out in any terrain/environment. The fact that you feel this somehow is NOT the standard is what, in my opinion, is "ruining" some horses, not the other way around. It's folks that treat the animals like dogs, or children that get them into trouble.

And not that it matters, but most folks don't "bronc" horses out anymore...but, when they did, it was out of necessity and lack of time; however, most of those horses were solid since after they were broke the first day they were ridden out over the range for a few days straight, a week of riding the range, chasing cows, mending fence, fixing pens, etc. is worth 2-3 months of ground work/walking around an arena...


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## wausuaw

Yea, I know it's all been said, by 2 cents is 2 cents. 

The going rate for a good trainer (around here), with good reputation, open door policy and years of experience is about $500/month (including board). To start a colt, they generally want 2 months time for a foundation (though are generally backing them within 1 month, usually a week or 2 depending on the horse). You can get decent (though less experienced) for 300$ (English trainers are $650, but they aren't popular around here, so I don't know what to expect)

For a "solid" start, the average is about 90 days. Horses in this time (again, average) get a decent handle on a loose rein, decent stop, yielding front/behind, moving away from pressure, trailering, feet handled, backing up, exposure to shows and obstacles and introduction to what discipline you are trying for. (Even if you don't plan on showing your horse most will tag clients' horses along for the experience). They may begin more "advanced" skills if the horse is ready. (And yes, ground work is done in beginning and throughout training, and in addition to riding.)

If there are problems, the TRAINER needs to say so. Period. I don't expect a trainer to have the time to send me a minute by minute account of progress (I would expect them to be training), but I would expect to know if any issues arise- whether it's weather or behavioral issues- or an exceptionally good or bad day, and the occasional heads up on progress, good or bad.

Again, all skills may not be PERFECTED in that time period. Some horses do better than others, some are better at certain activities, less graceful at others. But I don't think that it is at all unreasonable to expect a decent foundation on a horse in 2 months- whether touched or not, and should be manageable by an experienced person to finish out, and pretty confident at 90 (Unless the horse is just a complete wreck of a horse, but this horse sounds no different than 90% of the horses that are generally sent off to trainers- at least your average backyard type). I wouldn't expect much in less time, but from what the OP explains I think what she was told (and expected) were perfectly reasonable. 

BTW- I'm glad he's doing well and coming along.


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