# Do Saddleseat Horses Last?



## Spec (Jun 13, 2015)

I apologize if this is a cliche thread. And I don't want this to become a discipline bashing fest.
That being said:
I've never been interested in saddleseat but after reading another thread on here (the one about appaloosa saddleseat, haha), I started watching some videos of saddleseat riders/horses. I can't say I'd never seen it before (as in, I knew what it was) I had just never really watched it, you know? 
Anyway I had some questions/concerns about the discipline. I know literally nothing about saddleseat, so sorry if I sound stupid.
Do these horses have any permanent damage from the way they are trained move? Do they last as long as any other show horse? 
I understand these horses are born with the ability to gait like that--but they obviously undergo vigorous training to exaggerate the movements... how do they train them to do that, humanely?
Also, why do the riders have such tight contact with the bit? Is it because the horses are high strung, is it to maintain the upright headset, or what?
I understand that saddleseat and the TWH/"big lick" stuff are different, but how did all that start? 
For people who have ridden a TWH or saddleseat horse: How fast do they go? It looks like they're cruising. I'm curious.
Coming from a western rider, I will admit the discipline does look strange to me, but I'm not gonna knock it til I try it. Speaking of that, I would love the opportunity to try it out (although idk if I could handle it! )


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

There is a saddlebred farm about a mile from my parents' house here in my hometown. They train and ride saddleseat. I believe the only aids they use to teach the exaggerated gait are chains, which are pretty common. 

They have a now-20yo mare who still happily cruises around the arena, teaching kids how to ride saddleseat. Her name is Marie and she is the sweetest thing ever. 

From the saddleseat horses I've seen in the local shows from that farm, they are fast as heck. Their extended trot is almost as fast as a walking horse's rack.


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## SamanthaB (Jul 22, 2014)

You've probably heard of the more viscous terms, but most saddleseat horses (no matter the breed, it depends on the bloodlines) are born with the ability to step that high, the shoes will amplify that, but not to the extent that it is excessive. Winsdown Hi Octane (pictured below) is a good example of the natural high steppers. You can see it in almost every Dutch Harness and Hackney as well.









You don't have to use chains, although many do, there's a similar method where you place a weighted (but not too heavy) rubber band-like thing (except it's not tight) around the same place where you put the chain. You can use weighted shoes, or you can just go barefoot if the horse is a natural high stepper. There's a lot of training that goes into these horses, but I don't see it as any greater than any other competitive horses, the same goes for their health and lifespan; it all depends on the trainer/caretaker.

I think (take note of that think) many riders ride with such tight reins because their horses are in fact high strung. However you can't go to a saddleseat show with looped reins like in western, I do believe that you will actually be praised more if your reins are slightly loose (same goes with any English discipline). The reins may only appear tight because the riders hands and the horses head is up. Of course this depends on what you see as tight contact.
I would not refer to this horse as having tight reins.









Whereas this, whatever this is... well.... you get the point.









I believe saddleseat began on plantation farms so that the overseers could have a smooth ride for long hours while still looking good if they needed to travel elsewhere. High steppers in general used to be extremely popular with the "noble class" for the same reason. That's sort-of what the classes try to emulate today, a fast moving, but smooth and elegant horse.
I don't know anything about the big lick, but it looks to me like they took the rack and "put it on steroids".

I've also heard the gaits are all very smooth, especially the rack, but I've never ridden saddle seat.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

Do they last?

Well that depends. The extra large shoes do place additional strain on the leg (depending on the shoe and how good your farrier is). Plus many are stalled most of their lives which is detrimental to soundness. Saddlebreds can have issues with DSLD, or degenerative ligaments. So can Pasos. 

Many owners do not provide turnout, as if they lose a shoe, it will take a large portion of the hoof with it, hence the no-turnout rule. Some people will take the shoes off part of the year and allow turnout then.

I think the main reasons saddlebreds get a bad rap is because of how they are managed. Not many horses can stay sane cooped up in a stall every day of their lives. 

I don't like the saddlebred industry. The people in it seem reluctant to change their ways. No turn-out = unhappy horses no matter what discipline you ride. Plus the weighted shoes, and chains, or bungees used to promote a "better moving horse". Not something I am interested in.

Would I buy a Saddlebred- Absolutely. But I wouldn't be showing saddleseat. There is a lady I know who trains her saddlebreds dressage and they do phenomenal. I also would not buy an arabian saddleseat horse, as most are crazy. Not all, but most. 

Saddlebreds seem to have a much better mind than arabians, and tend to handle being stalled better. At least in general. I've worked on both an arabian saddleseat farm and a saddlebred farm. The saddlebreds had a much better temperament (even being stalled all the time) compared to the arabians on turnout. The arabians were better trained but still had a tendency to act stupid. The saddlebreds had a very poor trainer but were way more forgiving and better behaved. 

Not all saddlebreds are "hot". Many will calm down considerably when taken out of that environment and given a real job. I didn't mind riding or driving the saddlebreds, but some of the arabians I worked with I didn't want anything to do with!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

The bands Samantha mentioned are what the saddlebred farm here uses. I knew chains didn't sound right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Saddlebreds tend to be very brave horses, with a lot of heart. you must know how to use such a temperament, not abuse it.


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## SamanthaB (Jul 22, 2014)

Just to clarify saddleseat is a discipline while saddlebreds are just one of the breeds used for it. Whether you know this or not I just wanted to make this clear, but you can also use Arabians, Morgans, National Show Horses, Andalusian's, Belgians (or any draft breed for that matter), Friesians, Hackney's, and Dutch Harness Horses.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Drafts don't really compete in the serious Saddleseat because that is not what they are bred for- most of the Saddleseat classes you see in draft shows are just novelty classes, much like Western or English saddle classes.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Mulefeather said:


> most of the Saddleseat classes you see in draft shows are just novelty classes, much like Western or English saddle classes.


Or the AQHA saddleseat classes... :lol: :icon_rolleyes: 

Sorry! Couldn't resist! :hide:


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## Spec (Jun 13, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Or the AQHA saddleseat classes... :lol: :icon_rolleyes:
> 
> Sorry! Couldn't resist! :hide:


Haha that's what I was thinking!
The way I understand it, saddleseat is a style of riding that suits high-stepping breeds...Right?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

4horses said:


> Would I buy a Saddlebred- Absolutely. But I wouldn't be showing saddleseat. There is a lady I know who trains her saddlebreds dressage and they do phenomenal. I also would not buy an arabian saddleseat horse, as most are crazy. Not all, but most.
> 
> Saddlebreds seem to have a much better mind than arabians, and tend to handle being stalled better. At least in general. I've worked on both an arabian saddleseat farm and a saddlebred farm. The saddlebreds had a much better temperament (even being stalled all the time) compared to the arabians on turnout. The arabians were better trained but still had a tendency to act stupid. The saddlebreds had a very poor trainer but were way more forgiving and better behaved.


Those rubber band things are called "developers." They're used with hobble straps around the pasterns so the horse has to pull against the rubber band tension with each step. It's supposed to make the shoulder muscles stronger.

I agree that Saddlebreds often have a temperament that is different from an Arabian. To me they are more similar to Thoroughbreds, which often can be quite energetic but less spooky than Arabs. Not saying I haven't been on very spooky TBs too, but in general many are quite bold and energetic. 

But I find the assessment that this means Arabs are crazy or act "stupid" sad. That's like saying Border Collies are stupid or crazy because they act insane when kept closed up in a kennel. The difference is that Arabs are bred to be able to run all day, and this is what their minds require. Just like Border Collies. If another breed can tolerate poor treatment without misbehaving as much, it doesn't mean that breed is more sane or of a sounder mind, it means the horse is following a use more closely related to what it was bred to do, so it can tolerate it. 

It just seems sad to me that a horse that tolerates bad handling by being quiet about it is deemed a better minded horse. I consider it a valuable thing to have a horse that lets us know what poor treatment is, by being unable to tolerate it. The other horses are suffering too, whether they protest loudly or not.


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## Rain Shadow (May 1, 2014)

Agreed GottaTrot

I'm an Arab person. The three horses I've owned have all be Arabs. 

Kenzie is one of the best behaved, clever horses on the ground when she's in full work and turnout. But without it she's a ball of energy that can't focus to save her life. All her manners go out the window. 

She was stalled for two days because of nasty storms and my barn girl was terrified to even go near her she was so hyper. She was spinning circles in her stall, pacing, pawing, ears flat against her head. 

I got her out too her for a nice hard ride, and the next day my 5 year old niece lead her out of her stall to her paddock and Kenzie was perfect. 

Arabian are a high energy breed. They CAN'T be kept cooped up. 98% of their bad reputation is caused by two things. The amount of work they need and how smart they are. 

If you want to own an Arabian you have to understand two things. They are smarter then you. And two, they need daily work. Give them that and they are the best horse you can ask for.

On another note. Since the high stepping action isn't as normal for an Arab, I've heard that it causes a lot more strain. 

I've also heard of a lot of back issues, because the rider sits farther back.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Like a lot of disciplines, you have to evaluate each saddleseat horse as an individual, and knowing how it was managed throughout its career can give you an idea of whether or not that particular horse is likely to "break down early." Regardless of discipline, horses that are intensively managed- stalled most of their lives, started early, ridden hard, and shown extensively early on- are more likely to have problems. With saddleseat in particular, I'd be worried about the effects of years of being ridden in a hollow backed frame might do. Those that are shod with weighted shoes and whose farriers believe that longer toes help the horse gait better are also likely to have problems. I would certainly be doing a more thorough PPE (including plenty of x-rays) on a horse that had a background including any of those factors. Of course, not all horses will have health issues from that type of background, and just because the horse was started slowly and had excellent conscientious care doesn't mean it will hold up well, either.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

The arabians I worked with were crazy hot heads without an ounce of sense. I'm not saying there aren't nice Arabians out there. I'm not sure if it was what that particular breeder was breeding, the bloodlines, or something, but on that farm most of the horses were hotheads. They had absolutely the best care, but even on turn out 24/7 with large 10-20 acre pastures, they tended to act up, spook inappropriately, or freak out over small things. There was one mare the owner rode once for 15 minutes and never rode again because she was ready to explode. I worked that mare every single day and never saw any progress. 

Certain horses should not be bred, and it is a mystery to me why someone would want to spend 10-200k on a horse that only looks pretty, but is a neurotic mess. 

It is similar to people breeding neurotic dogs. If those are the traits they are breeding for in the show ring, it is something I want to stay far away from.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

4horses said:


> Do they last?
> 
> Well that depends. The extra large shoes do place additional strain on the leg (depending on the shoe and how good your farrier is). Plus many are stalled most of their lives which is detrimental to soundness. Saddlebreds can have issues with DSLD, or degenerative ligaments. So can Pasos.
> 
> ...



Never saw a training barn that didn't give horses turnout, the routines are varied daily, turnout, lunging, jogged to cart, jogged under saddle, full work out, and handwalking, some may get turnout too on the days they have been worked, it all depends.

And never saw an "insane" Saddlebred either, seen some hot ones, and seen some from lines that are known to be a fool at times, but stalling didn't make them that way.

Saddlebreds by and large receive excellent care, by dedicated grooms, and trainers.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

4horses said:


> The arabians I worked with were crazy hot heads without an ounce of sense. I'm not saying there aren't nice Arabians out there. I'm not sure if it was what that particular breeder was breeding, the bloodlines, or something, but on that farm most of the horses were hotheads. They had absolutely the best care, but even on turn out 24/7 with large 10-20 acre pastures, they tended to act up, spook inappropriately, or freak out over small things. There was one mare the owner rode once for 15 minutes and never rode again because she was ready to explode. I worked that mare every single day and never saw any progress.
> 
> Certain horses should not be bred, and it is a mystery to me why someone would want to spend 10-200k on a horse that only looks pretty, but is a neurotic mess.
> 
> It is similar to people breeding neurotic dogs. If those are the traits they are breeding for in the show ring, it is something I want to stay far away from.




Agree fully.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Known many ASBs that are still going good into 20s to 30s. Know some QHs that are ruined at 4. Same with all breeds/disciplines. Too many variables to pinpoint this or that as cause.

Saddleseat came from dressage, has its routes in it, and if you look at old photos of Steve Hill, who trained TWHs back in 50s I believe, maybe tad earlier you will see that the riding style was identical at that point to the Saddlebred trainers, which is not surprising since these two breeds were one and same, and shared same registry. So most trainers could ride both a gaited horse and a walker too.

And riders of many disciplines used to be sent to take saddleseat instruction to develop their hands. 

And some horses would do all the gaits, from the running walk to a square trot, and were shown both ways at the same shows too. Roan Allen F-38 was one for instance.

I am not a fan of the riding positions I see from so many trainers now, one trainer in particular though that I am impressed by is Roman Marcos of Marcos Stables, lovely seat...his brother Antonio is another. 

And yes...they fly around that ring...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXys9q7y8_c


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

My Morgan mare "Ana" was started by a saddleseat trainer; she was supposed to be her next saddleseat superstar but Ana has no interest in the sport; she's just too calm and laid back to ever make a great saddleseat horse; so the trainer sold her to me; and we do Dressage together; it suits her a lot better; of course if you asked Ana she would tell you that being a full-time pasture pet would be her preferred situation 

So Ana lacks the "hotness" that's so desirable in saddleseat Morgans; even though her dad and sister are saddleseat superstars, Ana couldn't care less about it; so it really depends on the individual as well.


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## Spec (Jun 13, 2015)

Palomine said:


> And yes...they fly around that ring...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXys9q7y8_c


Thanks for sharing that video! Looks like a fun ride!


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

I know many show horses in their high teens and a horse we raised was retired from showing at the age of 22. Conditioning and care is very important.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Do saddleseat horses last? Well, do jumpers of different levels last? Do reiners? Do cutters? Do dressage horses? Sure. Some do, some don't. Whether any horse athlete will last depends on several factors and is not specific to one discipline over another. 

Saddleseat crosses many breeds and, like any discipline, has many different levels of showing and even different levels within its own discipline. Local, regional, national, international, country pleasure, english pleasure, park, and the list goes on.

I know many, many, many Arabian and NSH (1/2 Arabian, 1/2 Saddelbred) horses with loooooonnnnng successful showing careers who go on to retire to showing occasionally or packing super cute leadliners. Like my friend's NSH who got a Top 5 at Regionals at 19 years old in English pleasure. Or her stallion who is still going strong at 18 and has moved on to also doing lower level jumping as well as occasional showing - and he hasn't lost an ounce of spunk (from personal experience). Or the number of horses I worked with as a groom for years for a national-level trainer. Sometimes an older show horse would bump down from park to english pleasure or english pleasure to country pleasure as they age, but most often there was some fluke injury or owner request that made those decisions. 

I really think the hardest aspect for people who aren't involved in any form of saddleseat to understand is that these horse genuinely enjoy what they do (if you've never seen an unhappy saddleseat horse being shown for exposure or to test its "showability", it's apparent and they don't do well in their classes) and they naturally move that way. 

While their movement may be refined in training, it's absolutely no different than the refinement done in jumping, dressage, hunter, cutting, reining, etc. etc. No horse out there is born ready to enter the show ring and succeed. Jumpers have an affinity, but learn to hone their technique over jumps. Reiners have an affinity, but learn to hone their technique in spins, sliding stops, etc. Endurance horses have an affinity, but learn to hone their technique to conserve energy, gain endurance. There is no difference. In the same way, saddleseat horses naturally have the high knee/high hock motion, the upright head/neck, and the "go", but training develops their natural born skill and hones it. 

So, the simple answer to your question is that saddleseat horses last as long as any other horse out there is likely to last.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

REA My Allience was bred by the same person who bred my horse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_yjrcIFEQY

For something a little calmer there's Youth English Pleasure

https://youtu.be/baik7l5nHdQ


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## Spec (Jun 13, 2015)

SEAmom said:


> *I really think the hardest aspect for people who aren't involved in any form of saddleseat to understand is that these horse genuinely enjoy what they do *(if you've never seen an unhappy saddleseat horse being shown for exposure or to test its "showability", it's apparent and they don't do well in their classes) and they naturally move that way.
> 
> So, the simple answer to your question is that saddleseat horses last as long as any other horse out there is likely to last.


It makes my heart happy to hear that. It's hard to tell from youtube videos whether or not the horses are enjoying themselves It's nice to hear that coming from someone who has experience with it. I am even more encouraged to try it out now. I found a saddleseat trainer with some National Show Horses and Saddlebreds just an hour away from me, going to look into taking a lesson or two!  
Thank you.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

Spec said:


> I found a saddleseat trainer with some National Show Horses and Saddlebreds just an hour away from me, going to look into taking a lesson or two!
> Thank you.


Careful! You might not want to go back to any other discipline... LOL!

Saddleseat is very fun. Riding a well trained, seasoned Saddleseat horse is the most exhilarating feeling on horseback, in my honest opinion.

In regards to the topic itself, I think the majority of it has been covered. I will say that I know a _lovely_ Saddlebred mare owned by a barn mate who was imported from a big name US Saddlebred barn. This poor horse arrived off the trailer in such poor condition - her teeth hadn't been done her entire life, she was severely underweight, had hoof issues, couldn't grow a winter coat, and is now currently dealing with arthritis in all four legs. My trainer told me that she cried when the horse stepped off the trailer.

This wonderful mare had been used as a lesson horse for about 10 years, and we estimate she was broke around 2. She never received basic care, despite being one of the barn's most valuable lesson horses for training young kids how to ride Saddleseat (my barn mate purchased this mare for her special needs son, and I took my very first Saddleseat lesson on this horse). She is truly a lovely tempered mare and it makes me sad to see the way she was treated for the amount of heart she put into her job.

Then, on the other end of the spectrum, you have Saddleseat horses (Morgans, Saddlebreds, Arabs) trained by someone like my trainer - who come out looking like champions. They have well-developed toplines and shoulders, are put on rest at the first sign of any soundness issues, are turned out as much as possible (with the exception of the show season), and are sane, sane, sane. I love the work my trainer does with her Saddleseat horses and I respect her training program and scale; it's not just doing whatever it takes to make the horse trot higher and faster, it's about correct riding and training with dressage undertones to develop quality Saddleseat show horses and riders.

It really, really depends on the trainer. It really does. But that's the same with every discipline. I've met a few reiners whose hocks have been destroyed from one hundred too many sliding stops and spins, barrel racers with permanent ligament injuries, and jumpers who are now only sound for light riding.

Performance horses need to be trained as athletes - with correct conditioning, practice, and *REST*! You will never find a hockey or football player training past their limits during the off season, for they are ensuring that their bodies hold out for when it's time to play again. Then, there is also a reason why athletes retire before they are 40 - because performing like that is hard on the body.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I didn't read the whole thread, so sorry if this question has already been asked, and that its a little OT but pertains to the breeds in the discipline being discussed.

Something I've wondered about for a long time and have been wanting to ask:
Many saddlebreds and NSH I have seen tend to be moderately to severely swaybacked by the time they hit their late teens. Is there a specific reason for this?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I believe the gene for lordosis (swayback) is more prevalent in those breeds. They also tend to have longer, weaker backs. My old gelding was an Arab/NSH cross and still had a longer back than would be expected in a horse that was 3/4 Arab.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Yes, it is genetic. I've read the shape of some of the vertebrae are different from birth, wedge shaped, which means the vertebrae are shorter on the underside. This means no matter how the horse is ridden or used, the back will dip as the horse ages. Because of horses' unique spinal anatomy it does not cause pain or affect their movement in most cases.
Here is a study that was done on Saddlebreds.
Genetics of swayback in American Saddlebred horses. - PubMed - NCBI


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## Uze (Feb 23, 2013)

I really have no knowledge or expertise when it comes to saddleseat, but I was very good friends with a girl that trained and showed saddleseat for a long time, and had many saddleseat champion arabians. I saw her horses all the time, and they were very happy, wonderful horses. Her main show horse had a very long and successful show career (That he loved) and when he retired, he was still going strong into his 20's. They were just as sweet and willing as any of the other horses, I think they actually enjoyed their work more than the lesson horses. In fact, I could tell they did.


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