# Soo Gimpy mare, take two.



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

so not too long ago my mare was lame on her left leg. well she is again. its in the shoulder again as well. this is a horse i could take on a 3 hour trail ride mostly trotting and loping up mountains and hills. never took a lame step. Now she is extremely gimpy after a 15 min ride in the arena at a walk and jog the day before. Kinda at a loss. Could it be arthritis? i dont want to pay and arm and a leg to get the vet out as she stops limping after making her walk for a bit. if she is still limping badly 5 days from now with no improvement i will get the vet. Everyone is saying getting the vet now is a wait of money as they will just tell me to bute her. They may be right, but if its just a strain is should be better within a few days (or at least improve).


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

if no swelling, then I think you could give her a few days off, and see if that doesn't make a change. but, ulitimately, it might require a vet to come check her out.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

she did this before, no heat, no swelling, just off. letting her walk around in the arena helps ALOT. took her on a small short walk and she was not limping at the end of it at all (hand walk) she just cant cross her front legs so watching her try to turn is interesting. I dont know what she could have done considering i used to work her hard, and now i have cut back a bit. Its on the side of her microchip, maybe its finally moved down enough to start causing issues. Im going to see her and take pics and vid tomorrow.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

If it doesn't resolve, I'd consider a chiro vet over a regular one if you have the option. If it comes to xrays & such, I'd get her elbow(s) checked too.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

yeah no chiro vet sadly. i have half competent vets at best. some are really good at some things, but if its outside of their strengths its a tossup. my normal vet said my fiance's tb hand strangles. He just had an impacted bad tooth and it abscessed (apparently strangles attacks the lymph nodes that people dont know about on the horses jowl -_-). so i try to hold off on using the vets as much as i can (ie by waiting a few days to see if it clears up on its own again). I would like to avoid the run around and get nowhere for alot of money. I have a friend who is a chiro though. she helped her alot last time she worked on her so i may call her.


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

I haven't heard of micro-chips migrating quite that much as to cause problems, but you never know.

Get someone to jog her for you and just observe a bit at all gaits. I know you said it's in the shoulder, but sometimes you can spot secondary lameness when you have someone jogging them instead of just at liberty.

I do feel bad for Negra, it certainly can't be fun for her, if only horses could speak human English when they don't feel good. (Don't know that I'd want them to be able to speak all the time though...I have a feeling it would turn ugly pretty quickly, LOL.) 

Hopefully it'll resolve with some time off, maybe you can find some videos on massage and stretching for when she's not gimpy to see if it helps her.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

well she was a lot better today. still gimpy when i asked her to jog (i can free lunge her in the arena and she listens so i could see what she was doing. Closer inspection its the right legs, but higher up, still think shoulder area. No pulse in the hoof, no sensitivity. nothing in the lower legs and upper legs. messed with where her shoulder meets her neck and got some dirty looks. Still cant figure out how she is hurting herself. I used to run the crap our of this horse and she never took a lame step. but 15 min of a slow walk and jog in the arena, Boom, lame for 3 days... She wanted to play today so thats a good sign. she normally stands at the gate when i turn her out but she tried to get me to play. had to stop her because watching her trot-gimp was painful. only had to tell her once and she would go no faster than a walk for the rest of her turnout (even after i left her alone).

Still dont want to bute her because the pain is stopping her from being silly with it. It could be the flexing im doing with her. she is still very locked at the poll so getting her to do lateral flexing locks could be doing something. idk im throwing things out there at this point.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'd just leave her alone for a week. If she's not going to be an idiot bute, if she is don't. I would check her every other day at a walk. If sound at a trot.

I wonder if a massage would help.

Could it be the saddle?


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i dont think its the saddle. its the same one i have used for a while. it might be from her stretching. when i first got her she would ride with her head so high i thought she might hit me in the face with her head. i taught her that its better to ride with your head lower. well now she likes it and will drop her head when we ride. she can put a peanut roller to shame. she dose it under saddle or when free lunging so she is not being a brat, it just feels good to stretch her back. maybe doing that while riding is starting to hurt her.


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

Hmm, does sound curious as to it suddenly happening, but hopefully it'll resolve. It could be a soft tissue injury that keeps reoccurring and just makes her sore since you said there is no heat. Yup, massage and some rest should do her good.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

rest is no issue. she is stalled 24/7. the only times i can even get her out for any period of time is during the week during "normal" work hours. otherwise everyone is pushing me out of the arena. Someone was going to lunge their horse in the arena with mine yesterday, but i said "no she is lame, let me get her out of the arena." Yesterday she spent at least 3 hours tied up at the hitching rail, and maybe 45 min turned out. That is normal when im there with other people.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

It isn't uncommon for overconfinement to cause health & soundness problems. I'd be changing that for a start.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Better to be able to move in her stall than be tied up.

I would do "stall rest" bute and handwalk when you can.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yogi, sounds like the horse is on permanent 'stall rest' anyway, which may be more a problem than a cure.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

well she and almost all the horses that have been there have been stalled most their lives (including fiance's 8 year old paint, never been out 24/7). its not ideal but its what i have to work with. she is in a 14X30 stall so its not like she is on a 12X12.

I turn her out in the arena because she is an lazy arab. she wont do more then meander around unless i get her going. the other day was weird because she normally dose not want to play. tieing her up kinda worked out for her because she has been getting impatient at the rail, so she got over it. and i spent time massaging her shoulders and back. trying to find where it was exactly.

again, she has spent most her life living in a stall, as have 90% of the horses i know. there is just no pastures in valley in az and most people out here think its too risky to leave a horse turned out unsupervised. heck when we get horse property its going to take me years to get my fiance to allow horses be out together, and he wont allow them to be out overnight.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

loosie said:


> Yogi, sounds like the horse is on permanent 'stall rest' anyway, which may be more a problem than a cure.


Completely agree but I know the horse has a very large stall, more of a small paddock.

ETA- KQ responded first lol


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^VERY small paddock Yogi, it's only 14x30(I gather feet). And she's kept alone, so she won't be motivated to do much moving around in it either. Yes Kiger, I appreciate it's unfortunately the norm in some parts, but it is none the less a problem for her health. May be a case of 'use it or lose it' coming into play. Same for people - osteoporosis is largely due to inactivity.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

she moves constantly. she is not a stand her her stall horse. she goes and plays with her neighbor, gets mad and walks over to her other friend behind bars (in a cribbers stall). she gets her food, checks her grain bucket. she dose about 4 laps in 15 min. kinda why picking her stall is pointless. by the time i go to clean it all the manure is gone, pulverized into the dirt.

I try to get her out as often as possible. i would be looking at all the money i make in a month for pasture board, otherwise she would be there. I boarded her on a small pasture for a while. my friend wanted her to be out with the girls (her minis) but big horse play is not safe for minis, and even though no one was hurt (tiny scrap of hair was gone on the mini's rump) she flipped out and said negra had to leave -_-' . So back to being stalled. i look online everyday for board i can afford with turnout. best i have is a place that will turnout in the arena, but with os it would be a smaller stall with about an hour of outside time.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Never heard of the big horses too dangerous for mini's story - I know many, many people who keep minis with horses, either because they can't afford another big horse & don't want theirs kept in solitary confinement, or because they've got young kids or such...


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Well the issue is that a kick that a normal sized horse could take and walk away from a mini might not. also she doesn't understand horse play and thought my horse was being "mean". her mini was the lead mare pushing my mare around and mine said enough. She kinda flipped out and i already left a bad boarding situation and was not dealing with more drama. at least where im at the drama can be told to go away and pick horse manure.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Well as of today she is no longer gimpy. turned her out and let her roll and walk around. had her turn on her fronts and backs. no gimping and she is quite lovely to day so she is feeling good. Still have no idea what she did...


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

Well at least she seems okay today, that's a bonus. Glad she's feeling better.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

AHHHHHHH!!!! Seriously!!!! yesterday i hoped on her bare back (first time riding her since she started gimping) and all was good. we walked around for 10, TEN min!!! and now we are back to being gimpy!!!! So once i have enough $ im calling the vet out. 2 times is just an odd coincidence but 3 times is enough.
someone tried telling me today my mare was 20 because of her Galvins grove (uh yeah) and she probably had arthritis. umm these teeth dont say 20. they say 15 with dirty teeth.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

pics are not posting. here they are.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Did the person look only on the left side? Cos she looks closer to 20yo there, but she's under 15yo on the other side! Going only off Galvaynes groove. So yeah, 'around 15 or so' is what I'd say, without further info. But it is less clear in horses over around 12yo & if over 18yo even dentists can have a hard time being precise. A friend's horse is 34yo(she KNOWS this) & last time the dentist was out, he was adamant he was only early 20's.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

im going off the angle of her teeth. at first i thought she was in her late teens (new owner and had no idea how to age horses). after doing some research (and the vet backing me up on it) i can see about 15. she was supposedly 12 when i got her in 2011. Id try to get better pics but I was amazed she let me even get pics without it being a 2 person job! you could see how thrilled she was about it lol!!!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

First of all I don't think 15 vs 20 makes any difference with likelihood of arthritis, let alone when you don't have confirmation of the age, I even know several young horses with arthritis..

Second arthritis sounds like a possibility until you think about how suddenly it started and how it's only when ridden/only triggered when ridden (am I right on that)

If she has arthritis she wouldn't just be sore then fine then sore again when ridden. There wouldn't be such large fluctuations and she would be sore/stiff on her own when starting off (any time movement is encouraged) and I wouldn't expect a gentle walk bareback to make a huge difference aka make her from sound to limping again.

It's definitely something that having a person on her back is making worse and doesn't seem to be a (noticeable) problem on it's own.

Guess you're out riding for a bit :/


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Well I. Have to really ridden in a while. So what's another few months. Last time I went on a trail ride with my mare was almost a year ago. I am going to get the vet out next month. It may not get me far because the vets outhere are incompitent at best.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Yes you are right on that. No the ladys argument was that because she was old, that's what the problem must be. She may have owned horses longer than I have been alive but I don't think she is right on this. She also said it could be from her fighting with herbuddy next to her. Last I check horses don't kick like that with their front legs. Heck she was adoment I keep my mare on stal rest for a locking stifle issue. I was checking her everyday for gimpiness after she got better. She was sound, she was playing with rocket the old tb. They ran hard raceing echother for about 20 to 30 min. She was tired and winded but not gimpy, not at all even days later. So it must be a weighton her back issue. I ant figure out what she could have done to have caused this issue.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yeah some people are just like that. Arthritis is usually, but not always seen in older horses but there are a million other things and arthritis is usually not relevant to weight on back.

While not waiting would be best I think she's fine waiting a month since she's sound on her own.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

If. She suddenly gets worst ill get the et out asap but I don't like oweing my vet money. I would atleast be able to afford the callout fee first. I normaly have more money saves up but life likes to happens all at once.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I hear that.


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

Wow, sorry to hear that. I hope that the vet will figure it out, though from what you've said about the local vets it might be a bit hard.

I am wondering if it's not a back or neck issue now since it seems to come on after being ridden. Maybe the weight is pinching a nerve in her back or neck and manifesting as lameness?
I know I limp when I pinch a nerve in my back, it could be something similar. I've found only time off from weight bearing activities helps me, could be similar for Negra.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

She was gimpy still today but only noticeable at a trot ,she wanted to play with me and i had to tell her no,, Felt bad because she is just being a sweet love bug and dose not understand why rocket gets to play but not her,, I had her out with rocket since they are the most boring horses when turned out (worlds slowest game of fallow the leader lol!) so she was at least happy to socialize,, It has been years since she was able to be turned out with another horse, So im going to keep an eye on it for now as i am almost out of pellets and keeping the old man from becoming skinny and keeping a half healthy weight on all 3 is high priority now,,


(sorry my period key is not working now for some reason so ,, means period lol)


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

(LOL you got to love when the keys don't want to work, mine randomly leaves out letters sometimes.)

Well at least she got to have a buddy around for a bit. I love those slow games of follow the leader.


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## Luv equins (Oct 10, 2014)

Well maybe try bute for how long the vet says and if she stop being lame on the bute it is probably pain but if not it's probably in the brain or disease. Hope she feels better.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I don't think it's "her brain" or a disease when she is lame with weight on her back then fine with some time off....

If she's limping she's in pain.

(What is that supposed to mean anyways? Brain damage?)


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Well I wont know until mondayish as we are getting rained on. Im already sinking in mud/muck up to my ankles. The arena is mostly manure and dirt so its a sludge pit. She looks sound at the walk but i can really tell at the trot. it wont be safe to do that for a few days, at least until things firm up a bit.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

How are her feet? How long since she has been trimmed? Recurring lameness often originates due to foot problems.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i have been rasping her feet in between trims. They finally stopped chipping (they would chip til she bled when i first removed her shoes), are nice and hard now. she may be due for a trim but going 8 weeks has never hurt her before, considering her angles are still right. Can't trim them now anyway as she will fall over if we make her stand on the gimpy leg to long. when i got her she did not have her hooves trimmed for 3 years. Her bars over grew a bit so my fiance took care of that as quick as he could. I felt bad because she was trying to hard not to fall or lean on him. We thought the bars could be causing the lameness but no change after it was done.

She is due (like an extra inch or hoof length maybe) but my farrier is currently working 60 hours a week at his day job and my fiance's back can't do it. Hiring another farrier is out of the question as i went through two who lamed my mare (and she respectively sat one one after he ****ed her off and tried to pick up her back leg that had locking stifle. told him to leave it now he pretends he doesn't know me or the horse), and most still do or charge $100 just for a trim.



that all being said i thought it was a foot problem the first time she was gimpy and we trimmed her right then and there (took a while because she was trying not to fall). No effect at all. her lameness came and went again even though her feet were fine.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

The fact that she won't put her weight on that leg does make it sounds more like a hoof issue as opposed to something higher up imo.

Doesn't necessarily mean "her feet need to be trimmed" there are lots of other things it could mean.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

the foot itself is fine, we have tested them with testers, "tapped" on them with a rasp to see if there is a tender spot, no heat or pulse ethier. Here is a vid from the first time it happened.|






The ground is dirt and powdered manure so its soft, and deep. Now she is not gimping to that extreme anymore but its still there, and A LOT worse at the trot (she is NOT aloud to go faster than a walk for a bit). when she "got better" she did not blow an abscess, and her feet dont look like anything odd is going on (seen enough foundered feet to see early growth signs). She is also not doing the founder stance.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

so as of today we are gimp free at the walk and trot. i see NO lameness at all.... So idk what to do.


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## Patty Stiller (Aug 7, 2012)

Everything in the old video along with the current description of her hooves (an inch too long is REALLY bad) screams hoof lameness. There are many terrific veterinarians AND farriers all over Arizona. You need to get decent professional hoofcare on a more regular basis. Hooves an inch too long is way too long, really. 
Tapping on hooves is not a good way to find hoof soreness. Hoof testers often miss pain caused in places other than the hooves by unbalanced hooves. Things directly affected by overgrown or unbalanced long feet, that hoof testers will not find include Collateral ligaments, the coffin joint, shoulders, knees, and back muscles. Good close up pictures of her feet, taken level and from the side on a clean hard surface and also sole views, would help a lot.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

this horses hooves have only been "balanced" once, and her hooves bled a few days later from just walking on a dirt rode. this horse when 3 years without anyone doing her hooves, and she was sound. i have had the same farrier for the past 3 years with a not exactly regular schedule, and she has always been sound. her hooves where done right after this vid, and it made no difference. Her hooves are due again and yet she is suddenly sound. hoof lameness dose not explain the sudden lameness after only riding. When she is gimpy she cant cross over on the front, when i try to stretch that leg she fights me, and this is not a horse who fights that. 

every farrier i have come across lames horses. I am at a boarding stable with over 40 horses, i see quite a few. one was giving horses abscesses and admitted it. one contracts heals, or trimms WAY to short. the list goes on. My FIL has NEVER lamed a horse, and his mare of 25 years is doing quite well, along with fiances 29+ tb, and their mustang and the paint. (who CANNOT be trimmed below 3in or he bleeds). as for vets, no.

One vet conglomerate killed my friends horse. the horse had foundered on the back hooves, she was out of town so had the vet AND the Farrier trim him. She said NO SHOES, since this horse was in month 10 of foundering and JUSt starting to recover. They slapped shoes on him and he sank through his souls within 48 hours. THEN another vat (we will call her G) was called out to put him down. did NOT tranq him and did NOT give him enough to kill him. it took her about 4-5 min to give him enough to kill the poor guy. She also put a horse under to stitch a superficial chest cut. When the owner said she did not think the mare was coming out well, G said she was fine. Horse died the next day.
G was also out trying to stick up our mustang's knee (before i met my fiance). her assistant had her back turned to the half wild, rearing freaking out mustang, chatting. Chris whent up and my fiance picked up the girl and moved her, just as chris landed where she JUST was. G proceeded to yell and scream at him for touching her vet tech.

Another vet, whom i normally use said the 29+ (then 25+) tb had strangles and handed Finance a ZIPLOCK bag with meds in it. Called a different vet and they lanced the abscess.

Another vet i know (last one that comes to my area) spent the better part of a year CUTTING the proud flesh off a horses leg, the leg kept getting bigger and bigger, so they kept cutting.

The only vets i like are about an hour and 30+ min away, and my mare cuts herself up, rears and rocks in the trailer BEFORE its moving, so by the time we get there she will need a vet.


In an absolute emergency, i will use any of these vets (except G, she kills horses and wont even LOOk at a horse unless you hand over $400, she will give you the difference back after. These are just some of the stories about these vets, and i was there for a cuple of them myself. I have met and used all but one of these vets so i know them. The conglomerate will charge me more than i make in 6 months to do all this crap to see what is wrong with her, one will give me some crack pot answer and the other will flat out not know or give me some "country" remedy that is questionable at best.

Ill stick with the once who gives crazy answers, he has not gouged me for money and is the better of the 3 (though BO hates him for some unknown reason)


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

these pics where from jan 4th. and october. Im keeping up with rasping them to keep shape and length down. she grinds her hooves down from walking alot and she crushes her heals all the time.

The pic with the pink tack(yes she was skinny, I had alot of crap and running around to do that month and relied on BO's feeding, yeah nope i think she was still on pellets at that point)
These where the longest her hooves got. her feet where done and about 3-4 weeks later she first started limping the first time.


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

All that pink! :-D

Even with the video I'm having a hard time trying to figure it out, I'm a better judge in person, LOL.

Have you had her blocked at any point to pinpoint the location of the lameness? That would be my next thing if not, but it can still be hard to tell in some cases. Maybe a leg X-Ray if you could afford it. Really those are the only other things I can think of to do. I'd not want to Bute her, because then she'd feel too good and want to play around and possibly mess herself up even more.

I am glad to hear she's doing a bit better, and I agree, I wouldn't think brain damage or disease either.


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## LyraFreedom (Jan 13, 2013)

It could be a selenium deficiency, but please consult your vet before giving her anything more than a reg dose of an all around supplement, it is easy to poison your horse with selenium! 
Summer 2014 my horse would come out of his small pen stiff but then would be fine after walking around for a little while, this was diagnosed as a selenium deficiency.
I would personally have her checked for abscesses in her feet.
My horse was sore all through his back/hips when he had an abscess(especially in loin area), this was due to him trying to compensate by walking abnormally. 
You can always give your vet a call at talk to him over the phone, atleast my vet doesn't charge for that!
If it is bad enough that she is limping there is a a chance of this going viral, If you're not going to get your vet out in the next couple of days please take her temp twice a day!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Id have to text him because he never answers his cell if its a non emergency lol (but he always answers his texts). She is getting 5lbs of senior a day and it has all the stuffs they need in it. Wound an abscess make her lame only after riding then fine again after a week off? she has been doing this since late october early november, you'd think it would have blown by now. Im going to have FIL shoe her soon that might help as she is never 100% ok without. 

last time before she went lame, she galloped around the arena for a good 20-30 min with Rocket. no gimp no soreness or anything the next day. she was fine, and the same was said for the next two before i hopped on her bareback for 10 min. the very next day after being on her she was lame. This is time number three. all involve me during the day before. after the second time i thought it was the saddle so i hoped on bareback. she was attentive, calm and willing. we just walked 3 laps around the arena and changed directions and walked 2 laps. nothing crazy.

this all started after i was working on Clinton Anderson style one rein stops and flexing. lots of flexing and flexing to a stop (she has a major personality change around march and becomes dangerous to ride and unruly on the ground. She dose not go back to "normal" until fall). so i was working on gaining control of her in the arena. the next day she was lame after our 3rd session. Idk about nerve blocking. id have to make her lame again because she is sound now. I could see if 4th times a charm -_-'.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

My mare recently came up lame; she would be lame one day and fine the next; drove me nuts. The vet determined that her feet were trimmed too short and that her sole was too soft; so I treated her feet with durasole and only worked her on super soft surfaces; 

A week later she came up lame again so I had the vet come back; he had me longe her in front of him and she was clearly lame; then he asked if he could longe her and not only was she not lame but she was showing off for him!

So we ended up determining that her lameness was partly due to her soft soles and partly because she was trying to get out of work.

Fast forward a few days and I suddenly find a damp, open spot on her hoof; the vet said she either clipped herself from overstepping or it was an abscess that burst.

IDK at this point, but she hasn't been lame since.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I can see her souls being soft. with the rain and humidity her stall is still quite wet. her pee spot as shrunk but its still there. in your horses case id say abscess. 

she is only lame in that leg through, thats why i dont think its a hoof issue. if it was youd think it would be all round. Im getting my tax return soon (yay!) so ill be able to get the vet out soon. if she starts gimping again that is. My fiance my blow a gasket if i call a vet on a sound horse.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> I can see her souls being soft. with the rain and humidity her stall is still quite wet. her pee spot as shrunk but its still there. in your horses case id say abscess.
> 
> she is only lame in that leg through, thats why i dont think its a hoof issue. if it was youd think it would be all round. Im getting my tax return soon (yay!) so ill be able to get the vet out soon. if she starts gimping again that is. My fiance my blow a gasket if i call a vet on a sound horse.


Dump the fiance and call a vet; if he's already giving you grief before you are married; it won't get any better once you tie the knot.

Ana was only lame in her left front; horses tend to go hoof lame on the front more than the back because they carry more weight in that part of their body; she has soft soles all around but the left one was noticably softer than the rest.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

its not just him and he has had horses for 20 years longer than i have so i can understand him on that. he got the vet out of a horse when it had cancer and even payed over 6k on surgery trying to save him (he sadly still lost spike). most people at the barn agree with him on not calling if the horse is sound. fiance and his family keep all their horses for life. they have a 23-5 year old navajo pony who was trimmed and shod for almost all her life by FIL. when a horse turns up lame if it dose not clear up in a day or two they might get the vet. if it starts getting better on its own they wont. Their horses are fine.

Again i also have questionable vets in the area. I dont want to spend the money for my vet to say "her foot is falling off!" when its not -_-'.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> its not just him and he has had horses for 20 years longer than i have so i can understand him on that. he got the vet out of a horse when it had cancer and even payed over 6k on surgery trying to save him (he sadly still lost spike). most people at the barn agree with him on not calling if the horse is sound. fiance and his family keep all their horses for life. they have a 23-5 year old navajo pony who was trimmed and shod for almost all her life by FIL. when a horse turns up lame if it dose not clear up in a day or two they might get the vet. if it starts getting better on its own they wont. Their horses are fine.
> 
> Again i also have questionable vets in the area. I dont want to spend the money for my vet to say "her foot is falling off!" when its not -_-'.


That's great. Sounds like he takes good care of his horses. 

Have you thoroughly inspected her soles? Maybe there is an abscess brewing somewhere? Or a blood blister? 

Have you palpated her soles? My vet showed me what to look for/where the soft spot is located. 

Does your mare walk like she's on egg shells when she walks over gravel? That's usually a tell-tale sole pain sign.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

We checked her hooves. Cut her bars back abbd picked abd pproded. She is somewhat tenderfooted without shoes but not bad. It took her 5 months to get used to being bearfoot. But she gimped difrently than she is now. I don't think it her foot. She is hesitent to let me move her shoulder ob that side.


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

The fact that she does it after you ride her says to me it may have something to do with the extra weight. Not that you're heavy, but that it may be causing her to strain a little bit in some area.

The one rein stop can put some torque on the neck and shoulder area when done at speed, but I don't see it causing too many issues at a walk or trot unless she was fighting the stop in some way and may be straining something.

Oh I do love a good mystery, but I also dislike seeing animals in pain. I do hope she feels better soon and you can figure out what is going on.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

well she is ok now lol! And we where not going faster than a trot. Im going to get vid of her tomorrow running around with me lunging and her playing with rocket if he has the spunk.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

would it be a muscle issue or a tendon issue with riding?


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

It could be either it could be both at the same time. It could be that she's developing arthritis in her neck or back and she's limping to compensate for it. Until she's given a full work-up it'll be hard to know.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> this horses hooves have only been "balanced" once, and her hooves bled a few days later from just walking on a dirt rode. this horse when 3 years without anyone doing her hooves, and she was sound. i have had the same farrier for the past 3 years with a not exactly regular schedule, and she has always been sound. her hooves where done right after this vid, and it made no difference. Her hooves are due again and yet she is suddenly sound. hoof lameness dose not explain the sudden lameness after only riding. When she is gimpy she cant cross over on the front, when i try to stretch that leg she fights me, and this is not a horse who fights that.
> 
> every farrier i have come across lames horses. I am at a boarding stable with over 40 horses, i see quite a few. one was giving horses abscesses and admitted it. one contracts heals, or trimms WAY to short. the list goes on. My FIL has NEVER lamed a horse, and his mare of 25 years is doing quite well, along with fiances 29+ tb, and their mustang and the paint. (who CANNOT be trimmed below 3in or he bleeds). as for vets, no.
> 
> ...


Honestly, a lot of this sounds like excuses.

I completely agree stay away from bad vets and don't go unless you need to etc.

But if the mare is sound when her feet are long doesn't mean you shouldn't trim them or that she doesn't need a trim (if sore when they are trimmed there's a different issue).

I think your misunderstanding some things.

If your mare can't be trailered she should be trained otherwise expect to pay a farm call.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I agree she needs her feet done though she could live another week. My farrer ha a day job and he needs to get his horses one too. As for the trailering this has developed over time. Wen I got her she was trailerd in a stock trailer and she was fine, she gets in the trailer fine, she just stands underneet herself once in ad loses balance. She has been getting wost the more I trailer out (reguardless the type of trailer or who's driving) so I don't know what's up with that. And you can say I'm making excuses about the vets but I don't have a lot of money at the moment. I have enough to feed my horse, pay board and get to work. That's it. I will ow my vet money for months if its an emergancy but id rather not. 


Anyway got vid from yesterday. She was running around and spazzing with rocket. Not a lame step before or after. Fiance is agreeing on the vet. Ill have to call him out as he dose not have a clinic (only dose farm calls). But since she is sound now she can wait a week or two.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

here is the vid. its the tail end of the spazz since my cell had a moment i missed the most of the spazz.
I let her play more with rocket yesterday too. and then i took her on a walk. we walk through a riverbed, on dirt and rocky trails and on pavement. no change. she is fine as of now.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Glad she's feeling better again.

Take this with a grain of salt because it's hard to see for sure and I'm good at finding what I'm looking for, but she still looks off. Obviously not outright limping and it's clearly not holding her back but she still doesn't look 100% to me.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

The arena was muddy that day. The top 6 inch was dry but underneeth was mud. She took off when I furst put her out and slipped and nearly landed on her butt. Rocket did fall at one point and both kinda slowed it down a bit. She was fine today though. Toolk her out and walked her around. Made her cros over her front end bothways. If she is gimping she can't do that well but she did it fine. I'm looking at getting the vet out next week. I have more hours at work and they will remane the same for a cupl of months.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

Footing can make a huge difference. Glad she is feeling better.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i need to get the vid off of fiance's cell but i rode her for like 3 min yesterday. Bareback and at a slow walk. she was fine. she tossed her head once so im not going to hop on her for at least another week. BUT the important thing is that she was fine today! no soundness issues at all!


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## Patty Stiller (Aug 7, 2012)

> This horses hooves have only been "balanced" once, and her hooves bled a few days later from just walking on a dirt rode.


If hooves were trimmed so short as to cause them to bleed, that was not "balancing", that was butchering. 

Has anyone put hoof testers on the cracked hoof, testing all around both sides of that crack? The old crack(actually a scar) is deep enough to potentially cause lameness especially on certain kinds of ground where the top of the crack will flex more.


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## Patty Stiller (Aug 7, 2012)

Also she has some poretty serious conformation issues, particularly her very long back and weak hind end. It could be she is not comfortable in her back. It might not even be IN her feet.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

the funny thing is that foot has caused the least amount of issues for her. the crack dose not go deep at all (yes i know its a scar). and she was not trimmed short, her feet have been known to chip WAY high on soft ground. Here is the cracked hoof (dose better with shoes but still waiting on FIL). the pick where it looked all chopped up was not even 3 weeks after the pics of her feet looking good where taken. there is a pic of the hoof chipping. the time that her hoof bled after riding was about 2 weeks after her trim and he did not tough the soles of her hooves either, and thats where the bleeding was coming from. She is a conformational mess i know, hence why i have told at least 10 people i WONT breeder, despite how "cute" she is.

and only FIL can/will shoe her because 3 farriers said that either they would charge me $300 to shoe her (the guy was a jerk). one said he would NOT TOUCH that hoof, and another said it could NOT be shoed. and two said i should send her to mexico. so yeah...


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i never thought it was hoof pain. i think it was higher in her leg. if your knee hurts, you still will limp. so if it was higher up, walking would still make her limp.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

here is the ride. if weight is too much on her back now is there anyway i could train her to pull a cart?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I don't see why you couldn't do driving with her but I'd stick with the "why is she lame" for now.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

she seems better now. its also warming up though. the weather is horrid for the horses. mid to high 40s as a low, and 80's as the high. horses are colicing almost daily. im waiting to see if she lames up again after that short ride. ill give her a week then hop on again with only a bridle and walk her for about 7 min this time.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

ok so i talked to my vet. he said he cant tell much from a video or a sound horse. He said if/when she goes lame again to get him out. soo i now feel like a horrible person, but im going to saddle her up tomorrow and ride her a bit in the arena. she is either ok, or she needs a vet. if she goes lame after the ride i will get my answer.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I think that sounds like a good plan.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

One thing I noticed in your hoof photos, is that in one photo, the hoof with the scar has upright heels, and in another photo of the same hoof, the heels look under-run and the angle isn't nearly as upright.

I'm not sure which is correct for her natural conformation, but there is some inconsistency there that may or may not have anything to do with her lameness. 

Like I said, I don't know if it means a thing, it's just an observation.

She's such a beautiful horse, I hate to her people knock her. I really love Arabians.

My mare (with a similar scar, although not as bad) I just keep barefoot and boot if needed in the rocks. I don't think she needs to be shod unless she's ridden out.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

she crushed her heals. she likes to sand WAY under herself, so by making her heals more upright she stops standing funny, and she has been happier that way. her heals are slightly under run now but not nearly as bad. She also stopped standing so far under herself and thats helping her feet too. I had her shoes off because i was not riding, if im going to do alot of riding i will shoe her, otherwise she just chips her hooves to heck and back. i have easy boots for her backs but they where deforming her feet! it was the strangest thing.

There is an az back country riders camp out in march im going to. if she is lame, ill slap shipping boots on her and drag her along to just hang out, she has been acting stupid the past cuple of times i have gone so its a training opertunity. if she is sound, ill have shoes on her and ride (and ride in the clinics too).


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

here are some confo shots. in the older ones you will see her standing WAY under herself. in newer pics she is standing more "normal".

The first pic recent. The second to last pic is the day i got her (with 3 years of no hoof care). And the last one with her standing all weird is because she dose NOT like water and is how she stands in the trailer...


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

Yeah she was standing way under herself there.

I 'think' I see a slight limp when she's being ridden, but it could be that I'm tired also.

I'd definitely call the vet out if the ride makes her lame again. 

I see no reason why she can't pull a small light cart, horses are typically better suited to pulling weight than to carrying it anyways. Just so long as she doesn't have an issue that would remove pulling a cart.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

ok so i saddled her up yesterday. she was fine at a walk and trot for about 5 min, then she started to not want to turn. she then started to toss her head and i ended it. Head tossing from her is only when something hurts. she dose it when the saddle has slipped, something is not fitting right, or she is in pain. she also seamed off during her last circle around. So i now have a vet appointment for thursday at 3 so we shall see what he says. as cruel as this sounds, i hope she is lame today after the ride. its ALOT easier to see what is wrong with a lame horse then a 95% sound one. and if i'm going to spend over $150 for the vet to look at her, i want an answer.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> So i now have a vet appointment for thursday at 3 so we shall see what he says. as cruel as this sounds, i hope she is lame today after the ride. its ALOT easier to see what is wrong with a lame horse then a 95% sound one. and if i'm going to spend over $150 for the vet to look at her, i want an answer.


I know exactly what you mean. By the time the vet came out Ana wasn't as lame as she was the day before when I rode her; and she was only slightly lame for me and not at all lame for the vet...argh.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

But! i have video so he will know im not crazy XD!!! if she acts fine for him im just going to play in traffic or something -_-'.


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

I hear ya, in my 27 years I've had some pets who were never lame/ sick etc, then I had some that were so lame/ gimpy when I was around I thought I might have to put them down or turn them over for some kind of study by the vet, but shaped up as soon as someone else showed up (apparently they learned if they limped they'd get out of work.)

Hopefully the vet can pinpoint it.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

*Update with X Rays *

So the vet came out, hoof tested and flex tested her. said he thought navicular so we x rayed both fronts. she had moderate navicular. We trimmed her right then and there (her toes are long but she is only at week 7 after her last trim).
So she is on anti-inflammatories and must have her toes trimmed WAY back every 4-5 weeks. Lit a fire under FIL butt to trim her and shoe her (she will have shoes on monday). if he won't trimm her on time, i will. Anyway here are the x rays.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I know little about navicular. i only know that is gets bad and the horse ends up being out down. Anyone have advice besides better/more aggressive trimming? vet said something about surgery IF she was bed enough/ a good candidate (at 18+ i dont think she would be) ill take pics of her feet monday after she has shoes on.


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

Typically just cut back on carbs, ice her feet, keep them trimmed properly, make sure her footing is good and that she doesn't get into anything toxic as well.

You might want to soak her hay to get any extra sugars out as well, just to be safe.

At least you know something is going on there finally.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

her hay has no sugars, trust me, it is just stems, looks more like straw. as for footing unless she is being ridden she is in her stall.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

My gelding has the start of navicular no bone involvement,the impar ligament has damage as does the deep flexor tendon. 
For now he's being kept sound with a 4 week trim cycle,keeping toes short and heels short. 

Think the surgery your talking about is to denerved makes part of the hoof have no feeling. That is from what i understand a last resort deal,when nothing else keeps the horse sound. 

My gelding get to that point i'll have him PTS,hopefully i have a lot more years before i have to cross that bridge.:wink:


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

Ah, yeah. Then the trimming/ showing will have to be the main thing going on then, maybe check what kind of footing you take her out on first to see if it's too hard or 'sucky'/ sinking, none of that is particularly good on horses with issues like that, at least not in the beginning anyways.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I wasn't going to keep looking at this thread, but... Looong toes & low heels. Near ground parallel P3s. Needs support *under* her frog(not heel walls). Have I said that somewhere before...?


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

yes they are long and she is in week 7 i think. she just shed her frogs the past cuple of weeks. idk why but this horse has NEVER had healthy front frogs. just when they start looking good she sheds them all the way off (like she did today). she also has a thing about standing in the wettest spot she can find (her pee spot) She crushed her heals, but her fronts are better than her backs. Finance took A LOT of toe off. seeing the x rays he knew how much toe he could safely hack off. the mind set of 90% of people in the area is " a little long wont kill them". so i was fighting fiance over that one for a bit. Now the vet pinned him down and FIL has a fire lit under his **** to keep on top of it. so she wont get that long again, she is on a strict 4 week trimming schedule. I was honestly about to get another farrier out but i am not a fan of 95% of them (and the 5% recently removed himself from the picture sadly).

She was trimmed to the vets liking today and her feet will get cleaned up and little more and have shoes on her. she has never taken a lame step (minus her getting over having her shoes taken off almost a year ago) since the day i got her until this last october. up until the last few months she was always trimmed regularly but as i said in the past. FIL broke his leg and he is still not 100% he can do 1 horse a day, then he is down for about 3. Im going to have him show me what to do and ill start trimming her and maybe shoeing her one day. Fiance cant really do it as his back is on fire for at least 4 days after trimming a horse.

Vet thinks this has been going on for years and just did not flare up until now.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Pretty sure diet (within reason) doesn't effect navicular..

Don't know how to ready x-rays, so can't give specific details.

Honestly not super surprised it's her feet, they're very long/underrun.

I would start a specific thread on that. Typically you manage/prevent pain as much as possible and wedge the shoes and continue managing until the horse isn't sound and is PTS but that's becoming "old school" and I understand that there are many new approaches (including barefoot management, even fixing the issues).

I also understand that navicular is often misdiagnosed, or.. "misspoken" and that much of it just means "heel pain" as opposed to true navicular and may have a different cause.

I would advise lots of research and a specific thread on here 

I'm glad the vet was able to do something at least.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

If you are going to consider shoes, you need ones that will *relieve* the toe & heel walls, and load the frog without constant pressure(ie yielding pad, not bar shoe). Can be done with shoes but tricky. Easier with boots.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

bearfoot is not an option now. she cant keep heal when barefoot as she chipped her feet horribly without shoes and it has been a fail experiment this past year. her heals as of today where actually a good length. Vet said long heels, short toes so thats what we are doing.

I shall be starting a new thread on treatment and such and update it as we go.

and yes diet has nothing to do with navicular, thats founder. I honestly would have taken a founder diagnosis over this.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Yeah I hear you, but try not to panic. If it is true navicular it's becoming less and less of the huge deal it used to be.

It's not a good thing of course, but no reason she can't be sound and happy and as I said, I have heard of some horses being "fixed".


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

it is navicular, you can tell by the shape of the bone. im freaked a bit because i have known some navicular horses and read enough about how horrible it is.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

KigerQueen said:


> Vet said long heels, short toes so thats what we are doing.


At risk of repeating myself, I said boots not bAREfoot, and unless the heEls are drastically shorter than they were in last pics, she is 'keeping' *too much* heel, but they are crushed forward, too low & flat **due to excess pressure on them & too little support *under* the foot. Raising heels(sure I've said this before too) is the conventional method for palliative relief. 



> and yes diet has nothing to do with navicular, thats founder. I honestly would have taken a founder diagnosis over this.


You're right that diet/nutrition is not the cause or the 'cure' of navicular syndrome(& often not of laminitis either), but it can seriously help - for eg. if you look into the studies done on gravelproofhoof.org you will see that Digital Cushion thickness can be potentially increased when supping magnesium & chromium for eg.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

she is getting a mag supplement and as for boots idk if that would work. last time i left a boot on her for 20 min she peed in it... 2 weeks of scratches is what i got out of that. she may get water or something in the boot and make things much worst.

When i had this horse on pasture she did not have a frog. nor when i had her at a friends and she was out daily. she has just never had a healthy frog. not for the past 6 years. she gets a somewhat healthy frog on the backs but she just keeps shedding her fronts off. we where half way there. then yesterday i was picking her feet and her frog was just dangling there by a thin piece of frog. had to nip it off. butter to nip it than her rip of somehow. or her get more crap under it.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

if there is a way to keep water out of boots (like some sort of powder) please let me know. and i can use glue one boots in az. the glue melts and they fall off in 2 weeks. im mostly worried about creating a breeding ground in the boot for more bacteria. and the fact boots tend to distort her hooves.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

KigerQueen said:


> bearfoot is not an option now. she cant keep heal when barefoot as she chipped her feet horribly without shoes and it has been a fail experiment this past year. her heals as of today where actually a good length. Vet said long heels, short toes so thats what we are doing.
> 
> 
> I'am learning form experience that long heels on a navicular horse will not keep them sound. Short heels backed up to widest part of frog and short toes,thats how my horse is trimmed and he is sound.
> ...


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

KigerQueen said:


> if there is a way to keep water out of boots (like some sort of powder) please let me know. and i can use glue one boots in az. the glue melts and they fall off in 2 weeks. im mostly worried about creating a breeding ground in the boot for more bacteria. and the fact boots tend to distort her hooves.


I use althletes foot powder inside his boots haven't had a problem with thrush yet.:wink:


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Well we are shoeing her Monday. Fiance and I are thinking if we could put some sort of pad in the boot to act as a frog untill we can get hers to grow. The shoes will help the hoof hold is shape wile the boot protects it. I'm going to buy athletes foot powder and fill the boot with it lol.

I have started a thred for her navicular called "Negra's Navicular". I have her x rays and ill be posting pics on there.


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## frlsgirl (Aug 6, 2013)

OMG...I just checked this thread thinking that you were going to say that she's fine, just needs a trim, maybe some time off...but NAVICULAR....so shocked!


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## Horseychick87 (Feb 5, 2014)

No, I know that feeding her certain things like you would for founder isn't going to change the navicular . But the things you feed can help improve hoof health if done right.

Can't wait to see the new thread.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

So she needs 24/7 support? Not even comfortable in her home environment? Which I think I remember is a pen? Something like RX Therapy boots, designed for full time use would be best. No, you don't want glue on/permanent affairs at all, because you need to take them off at least daily to clean & dry - and on that note, you can use dolomite or lime in her boots to help dry them out.

But you're getting her shod. Bit confused about that post, whether you're still considering boots. The shoes won't help(& it's far from necessary either - you don't want to keep that problematic 'shape') 'holding the shape' of the hoof, but applied well, they should relieve the toe & heel walls, and be an added 'stay' to hold pad material in - which is what is necessary, not the... 'border protection' I would NOT shoe unless you're sure the farrier is experienced(not at the 'old school' approach of the vet) and will ensure the shoes help & don't hinder the situation.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

without shoes she completely crushed her heals within a weeks time, i dont know how she manages it but she dose not do it with shoes. and i was thinking shoes and boots until she grows a frog. i used to use boots for riding. she started developing this weird ridge and her hoof started to distort the longer i used the,. did not have the issue with shoes. and she has always be stronger strided and more "comfortable" with shoes. she has always walked lightly without and if i ever plan on riding her outside of a small arena she needs shoes.

The only reason im thinking boots at all is to add padding to act as a frog. she has NONE like it never was there. there is a slight hint of one. my farrier has never touched her frog, it just dose not grow. im hoping that by adding padding it might act as a frog untill we can get hers to grow.


New thread is up.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-health/negras-navicular-547370/


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

If her heels are crushing my guess is they are too long to begin with. Long heels crush,huh ask me how i know this. 

The lack of frog is from lack of use and improper hoof function,shoe's if not applied right will not allow proper hoof function,so frogs will continue to be small from lack of use.

Iv been studying hoofs in detail so i'am informed and can better help my navicular horse,knowledge is power.


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## jazzy475 (Sep 18, 2014)

Sorry, double post,mods can delete this one.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

KigerQueen said:


> without shoes she completely crushed her heals within a weeks time, i dont know how she manages it but she dose not do it with shoes.


You must have a very different perception of 'crushed heEls' then. Regardless, if heEls become crushed forward, it is the TRIM and leaving heEls too LONG that is the problem, not at all whether they're shod or bare.



> and i was thinking shoes and boots until she grows a frog.


Why ever do you want shoes AND boots?? What do you perceive is the point of that? Aside from potentially wrecking the boots putting them over shoes. 



> i used to use boots for riding. she started developing this weird ridge and her hoof started to distort the longer i used the,. did not have the issue with shoes. and she has always be stronger strided and more "comfortable" with shoes.


Again, if her hooves distorted, it is the trim/balance, not the boots. Or to a large extent shoes, although peripheral loading rims can exacerbate any distortion. Again, sounds like a perception thing, that she happened to have this problem('weird ridge' gives me the idea of a laminitic 'event') when she had boots, so you assumed it must have been the fault of the boots. As for 'more comfortable in shoes', we've also been over that ad nauseum, that yes, shoes do tend to be a *PALLIATIVE* for weak feet, because they reduce feeling.



> The only reason im thinking boots at all is to add padding to act as a frog. she has NONE like it never was there. there is a slight hint of one.


Please read what I wrote after you posted xrays - and what I'm sure I've said at least once or twice before to you. Yes, the horse obviously desperately needs frog support. But if you're considering shoes, yet again, you need to shoe her with frog support and relief of heel walls too. Again, if your farrier is not knowledgeable on how to do this properly, stick to boots.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

she only has ever had a semblance of healthy frogs WITH shoes. The pics im posting are 3-4 weeks apart and the first one was a DAY after the trim. She has never had stellar frogs but they disappear without shoes. and the line was where the boot was sitting. im ODC when it came to her back hooves and i watched it happen. it grew out once i stopped putting on the boots. it was a noticeable line like you get from wearing socks, but in her hoof. With the easyboot epics i have CAN be put on over shoes. When i say distort i mean within 2-3 weeks her hoof will misshapen. im not even going to try to trim her hooves every week to counteract that, ill have no hoof left.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

KigerQueen said:


> she only has ever had a semblance of healthy frogs WITH shoes.


I think the state of her frogs, while one indication of ill health, are largely irrelevant ATM - with feet like those xrays show, while the *outer layer* of frog may sometimes look decent, she has NEVER had good heels INSIDE, and that is what is the concern. No, regular shoes do not help.



> the line was where the boot was sitting. im ODC when it came to her back hooves and i watched it happen. it grew out once i stopped putting on the boots. it was a noticeable line like you get from wearing socks


No idea what ODC means. Again, it sounds like a coincidence, that you happened to find this & assumed it must have been the boots. If the 'stress line' was really from (seriously ill fitting) boots, then there wouldn't have been but one thin line for a start, unless she wore the boots only for a short time. If boots are seriously constricting the coronary border for eg, the hooves may suffer a form of 'mechanical laminitis, but yet again, that's not due to boots as such, but a bad application of them. As you mention Epics, if it were those you're blaming, there should be nothing at all even as high as the coronet TO rub.



> With the easyboot epics i have CAN be put on over shoes. When i say distort i mean within 2-3 weeks her hoof will misshapen. im not even going to try to trim her hooves every week to counteract that, ill have no hoof left.


Yes dear, I'm fully aware you CAN put boots over shoes. You will need boots that are bigger than her ideal size to do this, and there's a strong possibility it will wreck the boots. If you read what I wrote fully, didn't ever say you couldn't, but asked why on earth would you want to do that.

Yes, I'm also fully aware that hooves, especially if imbalanced & weak to start with, do indeed 'distort' after a few weeks. Hoof wall is a 'plastic' nature. That's hooves. You need to manage it if you want hooves to improve. Not nec. weekly, but often enough that you don't allow them to get(further) distorted.

I have very roughly marked & played with one of the rads and will attach it to your other thread. Best stick to one, rather than having 2 separate ones.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

The boots never hit the coronary band. it was both backs and they where in the same spot as where the epics whent.
They sit as low as the boots in the pic though they fit better. it was that area the indent was spotted. like they squeezed the hooves too hard. but they where fitted by the local barefoot extremists (i call them that because they think shoeing a horse at all is abuse, that its an evil practice and that shoes should be illegal. the "leader" has been transitioning this poor horse for 3 years and its still so lame he can hardly hobble around his stall, and they trimm him every 3-4 weeks. at some point you need to decide whats better for the horse. if its taking 3 years to "transition" a horse, maybe its more humane to shoe him. out of the 7 horses that went to this lil clinic thing mine was the ONLY sound one. all the others gimped just about every other step *end mini rant*).


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

KigerQueen said:


> poor horse for 3 years and its still so lame he can hardly hobble around his stall, and they trimm him every 3-4 weeks. at some point you need to decide whats better for the horse.


There are none so blind as... yes, when I was looking up xray pics earlier for someone, came across a site that actually ADVOCATED paring overgrown frogs down to blood! You get 'em all!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> The boots never hit the coronary band. it was both backs and they where in the same spot as where the epics whent.
> They sit as low as the boots in the pic though they fit better. it was that area the indent was spotted. like they squeezed the hooves too hard. but they where fitted by the local barefoot extremists (i call them that because they think shoeing a horse at all is abuse, that its an evil practice and that shoes should be illegal. the "leader" has been transitioning this poor horse for 3 years and its still so lame he can hardly hobble around his stall, and they trimm him every 3-4 weeks. at some point you need to decide whats better for the horse. if its taking 3 years to "transition" a horse, maybe its more humane to shoe him. out of the 7 horses that went to this lil clinic thing mine was the ONLY sound one. all the others gimped just about every other step *end mini rant*).


So maybe get them fitted by normal people next time? :lol:


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Late to the thread, but did the line look like this? This was my QH gelding that I booted, I noticed he started getting this line on all 4 feet and it seemed to be right where the boots where! Like you I thought it had to be the boots, I contacted people rechecked sizes...turns out it was just from a dietchange, it grew out and I continued using the same boots for another year no problem.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

no it was not diet change as hers had not changed. and she did not have it on her fronts because at the time, she only had boots for the backs.


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