# She's way too harsh!



## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

My friend (Regina) has a 7 year old Saddlebred mare named Dancer. They bought her from a barn that was HORRIBLE. They dragged her into the water, they hit her, they put weights on her, they never cooled her down and drugged her w/ Ace at shows and just before they saw her and ended up buying her. 

But Regina will hit Dancer whenever Dancer won't do what she wants. And she pushes her too far. Dancer also has a rearing problem and Regina tries to make her rear in hand to show off, but hits her again and again when it doesn't work. 

They were totally ripped off with her, but Regina's really harsh and mean w/ Dancer and I don't know what to say. Most of the time I ignore it (that's probably not right) cause I don't know what to do.

What should I do?


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## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

If I were you, I'd chew her *** out. 
Your "friend" is mistreating a horse that's already been through hell for who knows how long, and standing by and watching it happen is not the right thing to do. `


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

how old is your friend? are there any other people at the barn that could help? I would also hope someone would suggest perhaps it is the wrong horse for her and give it away to someone who is a good trainer... or someone else at the barn that has more experience... she will end up getting hurt... she def shouldn't be teaching the horse to rear....
If you are about the same age you might approach someone a little older more experienced to talk to her so they can offer her advice. (she might resent it from you) good luck, nice of you to care


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Handling this kind of situation is always hard. You want what's best for the horse, but a lot of times you will end up ruining your friendship by saying something. All I can give you are a few suggestions.

1. You can be blunt and tell her she is abusing her horse. Of course you can only do this if you don't mind taking the risk of losing the relationship you have.

2. You can also try a more subtle tactic and suggest different ways to get the horse to do what you want. You can say, "I bet we can find some trick videos online that will teach you how to have your horse rear," and see if she goes for it. Or you can say, "Maybe she will go along nicer if you do this," etc etc. As a side note, I don't necessarily mind if horses rear on command, but rearing itself is a very dangerous habit, and unless you really know what you're doing about it, I wouldn't encourage the behavior, and would try to prevent it.

3. You can talk to a mutual party and have an "intervention" of sorts with her. Tape her working with her horse and show her the video tape. You and the mutual party can explain to her how she is scaring her horse, and they would have a lot better of a relationship if they could gain each others trust and respect. It may not work, but it's something.

4. You can simply have a mutual party talk to your friend and keep you out of the conversation. Like a parent.

5. You can call animal control on her. It might not work out like you want, because if the horse is relatively fit and isn't neglected, they may not be able to do anything. The animal control will keep you anonymous.

6. Do you have a barn owner, trainer, manager or anything? Or is this just in the backyard? Any kind of owner or trainer should have nipped your friend's behavior in the bud a long time ago. You can even talk to her vet and see if they can look for signs of abuse on the next check up.

I hope you find something that will work out for all of you involved. It's a very tough situation, and someone's feelings are going to get hurt. The horse, though, has no control of how she is being treated. She can't explain how much it hurts her. I'm surprised she hasn't turned aggressive by now, but if she keeps being treated like she is, eventually she will turn on someone. Hopefully you can fix the situation before the horse gets to that point. Best of luck!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

SpiritJordanRivers said:


> Dancer also has a rearing problem and Regina tries to make her rear in hand to show off, but hits her again and again when it doesn't work.


I find it interesting that you comment on the rearing.

Your avatar is a photo of a rearing horse - I would suppose is you and your horse?


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

ha I noticed that too... I don't have any issue with someone teaching a horse to rear if they are totally in control and its a really wonderfully trained horse, etc. However you might want to make sure you aren't "egging her on" to teach her horse to rear because yours does, you know what I mean? Maybe even say "yeah I have decided not to have my horse rear on command any more, I just think its a bad thing to teach them" You don't have to mean it but maybe it will make her think differently.... she may think you are cool and want to be like you, if that is true than you can use that to your advantage to get her to stop mistreating her horse.

Maybe suggest some training methods, etc. Just a thought.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

Yes it is, but I taught him to rear and he knows the specific ques. Dancer rears b/c she's mad and afraid. Spirit rears because I trained him and I think it's cool


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

I understand completely but do you understand that you having your horse rear may make her want to imitate you (sincerest form of flattery)?
also this might mean she looks up to you. re read what I wrote and think about it....


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

She doesn't want Dancer to rear. The only reason I mentioned it was b/c yesterday, she was sending Dancer around in circles and Dancer got confused and reared. Then she wanted her to do it again b/c she thought it was cool. She just wanted her to rear that one time but I'm afraid Dancer is gonna rear all the time now and then she'll beat the crap out of her. 

We do have a barn manager, but he's almost never there since his house is like 10 ft away from the barn. He trains cutting horses, so he's always in the round area while we are in the barn or on the trail, so he never sees.

Regina's dad doesn't like it, but he's not gonna stop her.

We're both the same age. I don't wanna wreck the friendship. She thinks she knows more than me, cause she's been riding double my years and she tries to tell me what to do. I don't think she'll listen to me if I try to give her advice.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

oh darn I was hoping she might take advice from you, why won't her own dad stand up to her antics?


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

He's a pushover


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I'm sorry, but rearing to me is the absolute opposite of "cool." I think it is irresponsable to teach a horse to rear - on command or not - unless the horse is with a PROFESSIONAL trainer. 
Why?
Most people don't keep their horses forever. When I was your age, I thought my mare (Dancer, ironically) was going to be mine forever and ever. Then I outgrew her. Thank God she was never taught bad habits.
What if your horses have to be sold for one reason or another? What if the new owners accidentally cue the horse to rear, and they end up getting hurt? What if the horse is sold on, and even though you told the first people that the horse rears on command, they don't tell the new buyers, and the horse rears and hurts someone?
So much can go wrong with rearing. 
Your horse, the one in your avatar, is super cute.. I would hate to think she'd end up somewhere bad because of her rearing habit. 

As a trainer, I would much rather work with a horse that bucks than rears - it's DANGEROUS. 

Anyways, there's my first rant over.

Are you girls working with a trainer? If not I strongly suggest you get one, even if it's just once a month or once every couple weeks.
My feeling is that your friend won't listen to you because you're her age, and let's face it, we all knew everything then. Perhaps she needs someone to look up to. 
I hate to say it, but with the path she's on, she might get hurt or hurt her mare.


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## RiddlesDarkAngel5 (Jun 2, 2009)

i would definitely find someone older and more experienced to talk to her. if you try, she's just going to resent you because you're horse rears. i know you taught him to rear and her horse is just doing it but she'll see it as "pot calling the kettle black". also, if she really is beating her horse, thats abuse and she shouldn't be allowed to board at your barn. its not fair to the mare to have someone like that scaring and hurting her. even if your friend means well, she may need to sell this mare and get some more experience before buying a new one.
so long explanation short, find a more experienced person at the barn and have them talk to her. maybe find someone who has actually seen what you've seen firsthand


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

I taught my horse to rear because I want to and he's my horse. It is not the opposite of cool, it's freaking awesome. It is not irresponsible, because he has specific ques to rear. Sometimes he rears because he wants to, but I know how to fix that because I had a trainer before that told me what to do and gave me lots of advice. I don't have her anymore, but Spirit is nothing like Dancer and you have no idea what his personality is. 

You're right, most people don't keep their horses forever. But there are always exceptions. I don't know if I will be an exception, but I'm planning on it. I can't outgrow him.

It's a four part que built around a voice command that no one would say normally. You'd have to want to intentionally want to make Spirit rear to have him rear.

Yes, thanks, he is super cute. But I'm not just gonna get rid of him because he has a problem. No horse or human or anything is perfect (except God) so of course I'm going to excounter problems. I'll work through them!

Regina isn't yet. I haven't had a lesson in months but we're working on it. Our other friend's mom is a horse owner/trainer and is gonna give us lesson when she recovers from her hip replacement. 

I know she's gonna hurt Dancer someday, that's why I asked this ?. I don't know what to do or what to say to her.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

So basically, you JUST admitted that he "rears when he wants to". Hence the ENTIRE purpose of not teaching a horse to rear unless you actually know what you're doing. All he's managed to learn is that he CAN do it when he wants, so yeah, that's completely the opposite of cool but it's unfortunate that it'll take him flipping over on you for you to realize that.

As for your friend, to be frank, the fact that you actually want to BE friends with someone like that just disturbs me. You've basically told us your friendship is more important then the wellbeing of a horse being severely abused, in your words.

But you also think rearing is cool, regardless if he "does it when he wants", so I get the feeling if your friend listens about as well as you do to educated horse people, you're both lost causes.

Excuse me, I have a bucker who's due at the rodeo in an hour, but first I have to get on and hit him for bucking because we're schooling now and he should know better.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

How old are you?

When she hits the horse, what does she do exactly?


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I have a friend who's similar. She rides a pony who is much too small for her, and even though she uses the pony's injured leg as an excuse for her not jumping, she pounds the poor pony everyday.
I've found the easiest way to deal with it is to find people who agree with you and let her know that what she's doing is wrong. Now whenever she does something we don't like, we shake our and all ignore her. She thinks she knows everything, but she's come to realise that some of the things she does just aren't okay. She's been riding twice as long as I have and tries to tell ME what to do too, but that never stops me from telling her what's okay and what's not.
Hope that helps a little! Don't be afraid, just go for it! She may be annoyed to start, but if she's really your friend she'll understand.


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## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj, keep the attitude in check will ya?? I don't know how old you are, but from that you don't sound much older. 
If she wants to teach her horse to rear, let her. If she's planning to keep it forever, then there's not much problem. Yes, she may tip over and hurt herself, and that will be the consequence. I'm sure she's aware of that and doesn't need someone with an attitude to tell her.
As for the horse actually tipping over. Ha! In all the time I have owned horses, I had one named Storm. He never reared, and HE'S the one that tipped over on top of me. Bacardi, on the other hand, spins around, pigroots and rears and he's never tipped over. Sometimes its not the action, its the horse that's doing it.
To SpiritJordanRivers, despite my above rant, I am concerned about your horse flipping over, but judging from that above picture he doesn't rear very high. You are probably aware of the dangers, as you have made obvious. Just be careful okay?


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

macabre is *spot on* with what she said. There obviously is an issue since the horse is rearing on its own. That is dangerous and nobody should encourage that behavior.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

He's my horse and I'll train him to rear if I want to. You can't stop me over the internet. I'm not going to change no matter how hard you try and stop me. If I wanna teach him to rear as a trick that's freaking MY DECISION!

As for Regina, she was my friend BEFORE I figured out what she was doing with Dancer. If she was severly abusing her, yeah, I would have stopped her. She is just Harsher than I would have ever been with her. It's easy to get frusterated w/ a horse like Dancer, and you don't know her, me, Spirit or Dancer. I was just asking a simple question about what I should do and what I should say to stop her from being so harsh.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

Thank you darkwillow, at least there are some people with some sense here. 

SPIRIT DOES NOT REAR HIGH!

That picture was the biggest freaking rear he has ever done. He might do a BUNNY HOP sometimes when he's excited and horses are galloping around him when we're on a trail ride in the pasture. Tipping over is not an issue. I never beat him if he rears off command. I'm training him and perfecting him so that he doesn't rear off command anymore, only on command. 

MacabreMikolaj and Solon, for one thing you both MISUNDERSTOOD ME and you got angry. I had a trainer help me teach him and she has told me what to do when he does rear off command which is unusual. I put that he rears when he wants too sometimes because I didn't want to say that he only rears when I ask him to, cause that would be a lie. I had to factor in those unusual times when he gets excited. He's a freaking 6 year old.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

I'm not angry at all. I'm responding to something you said. It's a dangerous thing to do on his own. That's why some people shouldn't teach it. Horses can rear at different heights. There is always the chance that one can tip over.

But that's a different issue. I'm still curious about your friend. How old is she? And when she hits her horse what exactly does she do?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> I had to factor in those unusual times when he gets excited. He's a freaking 6 year old.


I have ridden many 4/5/6 yo horses who NEVER rear, excited or not. 

I'm planning on trick training my horse, but I won't teach him rear as I am with the general consensus that rearing is a dangerous habit and should never happen *under saddle/rider*. I see rearing at liberty as slightly less dangerous, there is still risk, but it is easier to communicate to a horse to NEVER rear under saddle than to NEVER rear unless I say this or unless I do that. It's a difficult distinction for horses, they don't think like people.



> That picture was the biggest freaking rear he has ever done *yet.*


^ More accurate.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

Solon, we're both 14. 

You know how some people learn from the start that it's ok to hit a horse b/c the people they learned from taught them that? That's what happened to Regina. She learned from John Walker Stables and they freaking abuse their horses, beat them, ace them and everything. 

So she thinks its ok to hit her horse because she's been taught that. I need to know something to say to her to tell her that that's not ok w/o wrecking the friendship.

I don't think she knows as much as me even though she's been riding 2 times more. 

To answer your other ?, yesterday, the stall doors were open, the food was in the stalls, Spirit was tied up (still grooming him) and Dancer tried to go into her with Regina holding onto the leadrope. When she got her out, she tried to send her in little circles, but Dancer was confused cause she kept yanking on the lead, and hitting her with the other end. After a while Dancer reared. Then Regina thought it was cool and tried to make her rear again by doing the same thing. I know that's wrong, I see what is wrong with that! But I don't know how to tell her. She only wanted Dancer to rear that one time so that's why I put in the first post about eh rearing. She is NOT training Dancer to rear. MacabreMikolaj I get what you are saying when you say this 'Excuse me, I have a bucker who's due at the rodeo in an hour, but first I have to get on and hit him for bucking because we're schooling now and he should know better.' but I'm not doing it, Regina is and I DON"T KNOW WHAT TO SAY

When Dancer stepped on her foot in the creek and she kept slapping her. And when Dancer reared in the area, she screamed at her and did the see-saw motion (if that's what you call it) and it scares the crap out of me cause I know how bad that is and how much it hurts her (check out youtube and type in effects of the bit)


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

What I'm trying to figure is if she is hitting the horse in a way to discipline her or is she beating the horse. That is two different things. If my boy gets out of line, I'll give him a good smack on the shoulder and that's all he needs. Usually it doesn't escalate to even that. I just point my finger at him and he knows.

But, if she's wailing on the horse with the leadrope or hitting really hard (which at her age, not sure how hard she can hit) then that's something different.

The only thing you're going to be able to do is to get an adult involved. If there is abuse especially. An adult will be able to talk to the parents and let them know the proper way to discipline a horse. An adult will be able to recommend lessons so that she can learn how to work with Dancer and understand Dancers' reactions.

So tell the Barn Manager what is going on. If that means you walk up to his house and bring him out to talk to do that. Better yet, tell *YOUR* parents and have them talk to the Barn Manager so he can talk either directly to Regina or her parents.

If she doesn't listen to you, there's not much you can do about it except get an adult involved.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Not to play moderator but I think that now would be a good time for everyone to take a step back and take a breath.

As for the OP. All you can really do is talk to her and tell her how you are feeling or take your concerns to either her parents or your trainer.

Yes, he is your horse to train how you see fit but people here are just trying to make you aware of points that you may not have considered yet. They are simply trying to ensure the safety of you and your horse.

On the other hand, Solon and Miko were just trying to point out that while you had help teaching your horse to rear and have specific cues for it, she may be trying to imitate you because you DO talk about how cool rearing is, or how cool it feels and she wants to know too. She is trying to teach her horse in the only way she knows how. You may suggest that she get a trainer to teach her to train the horse appropriately and someone that can teach her how to handle a horse without causing pain.

I personally hate a horse that rears whether on cue or not but that is just my personal preferance. Each person has the right to train their horses to do what they want but part of being responsible is to not encourage (whether you say it bluntly or just do it by actions) people to do things that they are a long way from being ready for and things that they don't understand.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

I no longer care what people say about Spirit rearing. I know the dangers. I am fully aware of what could happen. I knew that before I ever considered teaching him. My choice, my decision, and why should you care if I get hurt, you've never met me before you don't know me. I will continue to teach him to rear even though it is dangerous because he is my horse, I make the calls and I want too. I will just ignore any other comments abotu Spirit rearing. JUST TELLING YOU.

Different horses have different personalities. I'm pretty sure a young horse on a trail, across the creek, away from the barn, standing in the hot sun, with bugs flying around him, next to a bunch of other horses one of them being a mare in heat, watching 4 horses gallop across the creek and buck all around him, hearing whinnies of his best buddies in the distance, being an entergetic young horse who had been give little bits of alfalfa for one of the first times, standing with the owner who is bareback, and listening to the shouts of people and thundering horse hooves comming towards and away from him would get a little frisky, don't you think. He has an entergetic personality.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

smrobs, she doesn't think it's cool, she doesn't want her to rear, she's never seen me rear, once and I have mentioned it once.

She wanted Dancer to rear one time and that was all, but I know Dancer will continue to rear and then Regina will keep hitting her to make her stop. she created a monster.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

SpiritJordanRivers said:


> Solon, we're both 14.
> 
> To answer your other ?, yesterday, the stall doors were open, the food was in the stalls, Spirit was tied up (still grooming him) and Dancer tried to go into her with Regina holding onto the leadrope. When she got her out, she tried to send her in little circles, but Dancer was confused cause she kept yanking on the lead, and hitting her with the other end. After a while Dancer reared. *Then Regina thought it was cool and tried to make her rear again by doing the same thing. I know that's wrong, I see what is wrong with that!* But I don't know how to tell her. She only wanted Dancer to rear that one time so that's why I put in the first post about eh rearing. She is NOT training Dancer to rear. MacabreMikolaj I get what you are saying when you say this 'Excuse me, I have a bucker who's due at the rodeo in an hour, but first I have to get on and hit him for bucking because we're schooling now and he should know better.' but I'm not doing it, Regina is and I DON"T KNOW WHAT TO SAY


I'm confused, you said she thought is was cool and tried to make her rear again.

And if you could answer the part of my post about the hitting that may give more insight on what is going on with Dancer.


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## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

Well it sounds like you have this all figured out. So if it were I, and I had a stubborn, stupid, friend who seems to have no common sense, I'd hand them a helmet. Unless she is wearing one, but I'm not sure I want to give her the benefit of the doubt. She doesn't seem that smart to me.

As for your horse, I don't give a crap what you do. But your attitude of "I can do what I want. He's my horse" is probably transferring to your friend. Keep that in mind next time she is beating her horse. Its *her *horse. Right?


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

I had my camera out b/c Regina is always asking for videos and pictures, then she started yanking on the lead rope and hitting her (while I was taking a video) Dancer reared all of the sudden. Regina wanted to see the video and she was like 'oh, that's cool! Let me try it again!' I didn't know what to say. Her dad came in and told her to stop. She kept trying for a while then stopped.


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## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

SpiritJordanRivers said:


> I had my camera out b/c Regina is always asking for videos and pictures, then she started yanking on the lead rope and hitting her (while I was taking a video) Dancer reared all of the sudden. Regina wanted to see the video and she was like 'oh, that's cool! Let me try it again!' I didn't know what to say. Her dad came in and told her to stop. She kept trying for a while then stopped.


YOU had the camera and said NOTHING. You should have said "No. My camera is not for recording abuse". As for her father, I can see the family resemblance.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

Yeah um Whipple, you don't seem to get it.

I'm training Spirit.
Reginas beating Dancer.

There's a diffence.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

She wasn't hurting Dancer when I first had my camera out. Everything happened so fast I just shut it off right after th rear.


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## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

I do get it. You two have the same bad attitude. But at 14 I guess I did too. Hopefully you both grow up before you get hurt.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

Her father is nice, he just knows nothing about horses. He came and watched her and was like, "stop it Regina. Stop it. Don't do that. Dancer doesn't like that. stop it." and her brother was like, "stop Regina, Dancer doesn't like that, don't do that to her." But she has not respect for them cause she thinks she knows more.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

What bad attitude? I'm trying to get advice on what to say to Regina to get her to stop beating her horse.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Since you haven't or won't answer my question about how she's hitting her, it's hard to tell if the hitting is abusive or not. 

Did you read my reply about going to an *ADULT*? That really is the best thing you can do at this point. And if she is abusing the horse, be bold and tell you she has to stop it or you're going to get the Barn Manager.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

Solon, yes it is abusive but not ASPCA come and take your horse away from you and fine you for animal cruelty. People would watch and be disgusted, might come up and tell her to stop it. I'm going to tell her to stop. I just am looking for the best way to do so. 

Yes, I did read it. But I'm going to try and see if she'll stop from me telling her. Then I'll tell her parents, then the barn manager.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Personally, if your saying the hitting is abusive it's irresponsible on your part not to tell the barn manager immediately. At least for the sake of the horse.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

I really haven't know her for that long, and I really like her, but I hate the way she treats her horse. At first it wasn't that bad Dancer was really being bad that day she was rearing and she wasn't stopping (but I didn't see very much cause I was w/ other friend) , but it has gotten worse very slowly the longer i've known her. Then yesterday I looked at the way she was treating Dancer (it was worse than I've seen) and was like, 'Oh crap I gotta do something about this.' So I came here asking for advice on the best way to get her to stop (like what should I do first, tell her, tell her dad . . . etc) Then I get on, and everyone starts blasting me about Spirit Rearing which made me really mad so I apologize if I offened anyone (I probably did, so I'm sorry if I was mean, I was mad but that doesn't excuse it, so i'm sorry) So yeah . . .


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Well, hopefully you have some advice to work from. Tell the Barn Manager immediately so he can talk to the parents. It's really up to you to report what you are seeing. You don't even have to let her know you talked to the BM and you can ask him not to say that you said anything.

Eventually the horse may get tired of being smacked around and really act out to where Regina gets hurt and no one wants that to happen. Hope it all works out.


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## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

Ok, you keep adding details to the story, and I am getting confused. So if there is anything else to add, could you do that now? Thanks so much.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> why should you care if I get hurt, you've never met me before you don't know me. I will continue to teach him to rear *even though it is dangerous* because he is my horse, I make the calls and I want too


The sad thing is, it is dangerous for your horse as well. That's all I am going to say and you will probably ignore hits, but had to say it. That is not a good attitude to have around horses. And personally I care if anyone gets hurt, and if I can try and prevent it I will.

In regards to Regina... She sounds like a young kid trying to train her horse without direction or help. We all make mistakes, we all get mad at our horses sometimes, and we have all done things we regret sometimes. It sounds to me that at this point in time, Dancer may be too much for her. Have you suggested this to her parents? Maybe a more broke horse will help her understand proper training methods and controlling your emotions around horses. It's a difficult thing for young kids to understand that horses are purely reactive, they do not think the same way we do, and when you forget that is when tempers can get out of hand.

Maybe suggest to her that you know a really good trainer, and you guys should take some lessons together? It will seem more of a friendly gesture, and won't mak her feel threatened or like you are implying she doesn't know much. You could chat to the trainer beforehand and ask if she could show BOTH of you calm, non-aggresive ways to acheive what you want out of your horses. Even if you alrerady know, it will be a good refresher, and won't make her feel singled out.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

I know, I have been adding a lot of details. It's been happening over the course of a month or so. That one situation with the rearing and the camera, was where I realized what she was doing was wrong and I needed to seek advice. That was a specific example.

Basically Regina hits her horse. I don't think people should hit their horses like that. She's training her horse to do something, then turning around and smacking her for doing it later. I don't even think she knows that what she is doing is bad, but I just needed advice on what say to her, what to say to her dad, what to say to the barn manager and I have some of that now, so I can go talk to her.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I would like to note that the OP did a very gracious thing and messaged me with an apology for her responses, which I found very admirable. I would also like to apologize for getting so snippy, as much as I disagree with training horses to rear, it was also very much off topic.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Same here, very admirable and I really do wish her luck with her friend.


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## Whipple (Feb 2, 2009)

Same here. I think this got a bit heated, but I give her credit for apologizing.
I also apologize.

I hope you take our advice to heart. We dont want to see anyone hurt. Or any horses.

If she were doing this to a dog, I could just see her getting bit. I would imagine a horse that is simply confused is going to lash out at some point. They get fed up too. So for her sake I hope this doesnt happen. And her parents seem nonchalant about the whole situation, anything that happens will likely get blamed on the horse.

Good luck.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

One day that horse is going to hurt your friend...and your friend needs a fair warning. She needs to learn how to properly work with her, period...it's not fair to the horse. 

If she won't listen to you, then maybe you could find a book, or another friend, or a trainer who she will listen to.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

> *why should you care if I get hurt, you've never met me before you don't know me*. I will continue to teach him to rear even though it is dangerous because he is my horse, I make the calls and I want too


Then why should any of us care enough as to give you advice on what to tell your "friend"?

You know right from wrong, I hope. You obviously seem very "grown up" with knowing the risks of rearing - why can't you be grown up enough to put your "friend" in check?

Tell her to STOP, tell SOMEONE, ANYONE - protect the freakin horse!

**Sorry, beating this thread to death(I just read it), but I'm not buying this!!**


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

Amen,you are teaching your horse to rear and making it your avatar but are sure your friend has no idea how cool you think it is,,,, hmmm sorry but seeing some conflicting info here........I really hope an adult gets involved...I think both young ladies need guidance


PS very glad you are pming and getting stuff straight with other posters, my gut is you are a good person trying to do the right thing, live and learn


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think that people forget that we STILL do live in a time where you can virtually treat your horse any way you see fit as long as he's not starving to death. Unless the horse is visibly neglected, or abused to the point of having open sores, it's simply not against the law. She can hit her horse until the cows come home and technically there is NOTHING anybody can do about it. 

So it's easy to tell her to go to an adult, but the simple reality is that it's flat out not going to get her far. Unless she's leaving physical marks on the horse, it's within her "rights" as an owner to discipline as she sees fit.

So I CAN understand the frustration the OP is feeling. This is absolutely no different in anyway then the rider who hits his horse with a crop half a dozen times for refuseing a jump. Half the people at the show will nod in approval, half in disgust. Just because you think it's wrong doesn't mean anything can actually be done about it.

However, I do agree that you need to tell as MANY adults and people as you can. Go to different trainers or coachs for advice, and maybe you CAN make a difference if you can make your barn manager wake up and realize the cruel injustice that's happening. My best advice at this point would be to just not give up - don't ever accept what's happening to this mare, just keep making noise about it and hopefully you can make a difference.


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## Calamity Jane (Mar 16, 2009)

> However, I do agree that you need to tell as MANY adults and people as you can. Go to different trainers or coachs for advice, and maybe you CAN make a difference if you can make your barn manager wake up and realize the cruel injustice that's happening. My best advice at this point would be to just not give up - don't ever accept what's happening to this mare, just keep making noise about it and hopefully you can make a difference.




If you take any advice from here,...I have to say that this is some of the best you can take and remember.

Tell everyone who will listen. Tell YOUR parents. Tell any and all adults that you know, who are horse people. The only way to find the people who will back you up and help the horse, is to not stay silent. Talk. Tell. Just keep talking to everyone. Someone will hear you and someone will do something about it. Just takes the right person. 

Start talking about it now.

Good for you for wanting to get involved in the first place. :wink:


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

Both my riding horses rear. Not on command, but saying that 'I've never had a horse rear' is a bit like saying 'I've never had a cat meow'. That may be your particular cats...but hey, not everyone has a cat like yours  

Either way, I would start by commenting. For example, when she hits and pulls at the same time, make a comment such as 'You know your completely confusing her...' try being helpful by saying 'Instead of doing that, try this' or ask her to let you try, and chat with her about how to get the best results. 
I had an 'experienced' (blah!) 'horseperson' tell me when a horse acts up "YOU GOTTA BEAT THE [email protected] OUTTA THEM". A novice like your friend could really take this in the wrong way, as she seems to be doing. Strong, gentle enforcement yields better results then a hard whipping.

Doesn't work, move onto the dad. Hint about it. Comment about it. Point it out. Don't seem rude by coming out saying 'YOUR DAUGHTERS ABUSIVE. LOL'

No result? Go to the barn manager. Be adult. Be clear.

Good luck, and very cute horse you have there.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> Both my riding horses rear. Not on command, but saying that 'I've never had a horse rear' is a bit like saying 'I've never had a cat meow'. That may be your particular cats...but hey, not everyone has a cat like yours


I didn't mean to say that no horses rear. What i meant was, to me, age and excitement is no excuse for a horse to rear, and ASAP I teach them not to. I also haven't found rearing to be a standard response to excitement.

Sorry to be misunderstood :]


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## Phantomcolt18 (Sep 25, 2007)

SpiritJordanRivers said:


> (check out youtube and type in effects of the bit)


 whats the URL


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

Ok, while your friend sounds young and stupid, I have to disagree that she is being abusive. Different strokes for different folks. What some people view as abusive, other don't. I personally do not view hitting/smacking as abusive when it fits the crime. Also, due to our size in relation to the equine- we really cannot do much damage with smacking. There are exception but as a general rule you are not hurting your horse by smacking it. I do agree that she probably confused her horse into rearing BUT I do not think the horse reared as a result of being 'abused'. If my horse were to duck into a stall without my permission, I'd probably reprimand the horse as well. If a horse steps on my foot, I generally respond in the same way if not with more severity. If your friend isn't really and truly abusing her horse I would say keep your nose out of it. Sorry but it is your friend's horse not your horse so it is your friend's horse to do with as she will. You probably wouldn't want her interference and she probably doesn't want your interference. Case in point- what if she had gone to your trainers, parents, siblings etc. had she seen your teaching your horse to rear and disagreed with it. You would probably get pretty ticked and your friend will probably get pretty ticked. What you have so far does not constitute as abuse in any way, shape or form and until it does cross into real abuse I would suggest staying out of it.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

Or she could smack her "friend" with a leadrope or whatever and ask her how she likes it LOLOLOL

I know I know... shut up Shawneen


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## AussieDaisyGirl (May 21, 2009)

Shawneen said:


> Or she could smack her "friend" with a leadrope or whatever and ask her how she likes it LOLOLOL
> 
> I know I know... shut up Shawneen


One guy I was in lessons with a few years ago thought he'd show off and started to smack his horse around the head with the crop. Freaked the poor thing half to death. I grabbed my crop and beat him around the head with it and asked how he liked it. Of course - we were teenagers at the time and I was lucky he wasn't bigger or he'd have whooped my butt LOL!

It got the point across. :twisted:

Now all that said - Sounds like she desperately needs a trainer and lots of lessons. *sigh* I miss being young and knowing everything.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Shawneen said:


> Or she could smack her "friend" with a leadrope or whatever and ask her how she likes it LOLOLOL
> 
> I know I know... shut up Shawneen


I don't think you should shut up, I agree with you 100%.

I really don't care HOW "little" it hurts the horse, it's still mentally damaging and eventually you WILL get the horse you smack around one to many times and goes on the fight.

I have to say onetoomany, the fact that you hit your horses for stepping on your feet is a little unbelieveable to me. Horses do not "delibrately" step on feet, and smacking them around for it is the silliest thing I've ever heard. If my horse steps on my foot, it was my OWN fault for not watching where my feet were! How on earth do you expect your horse to take care of both himself AND you? That's the responsibility of the owner, not the horse.

Repeatedly smacking your horse either with hand or leadrope in a situation it doesn't understand scares the wits out of it. So I tend to get annoyed with people who say we "can't hurt horses" with our physical being. When we get angry, we become frightening to horses, and mental damage is just as bad as physical.

I think it's ridiculous the way we're "allowed" to treat our animals, through nothing more then blatant stupid ignorance on OUR part. Animals are not human, they need us to explain things to them, and 99% of the time when they don't obey, it's because WE are the problem. Humans are ego-maniacs and tend to forget the extreme reality that a horse is a 1000lb animal that will squash us to a pulp if we actually believe we can beat it regularly without justification (in their minds) and not have them snap. And then we blame the HORSE!

So I disagree 100% that the situation should be ignored because somehow we believe it's her right to smack her horse over and over and over again because of her own stupidity. I think the OP is completely justified in trying to find help for both horse and owner, because a horse will only take so much before they get fed up and fight back.


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## Shawneen (Apr 22, 2009)

I completely agree, I have a mare to prove it. She was treated badly and she has it in her head that when it is time to argue she's going to give it all she's got rather than pussy foot around with the small stuff. Ingredients for disaster. When a dog is cornered... and all that jazz.


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## onetoomany (Dec 10, 2008)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I have to say onetoomany, the fact that you hit your horses for stepping on your feet is a little unbelieveable to me. Horses do not "delibrately" step on feet, and smacking them around for it is the silliest thing I've ever heard. If my horse steps on my foot, it was my OWN fault for not watching where my feet were! How on earth do you expect your horse to take care of both himself AND you? That's the responsibility of the owner, not the horse.


Unless the person does something dumb (like turning the horse into you, yes I've done it and recently got stepped on doing it) usually it's an invasion of space. To me, invading space is dangerous and can lead to dangerous things. My horse should know to keep about an arms distance away from me, if the horse steps on me then they are inside that boundary, so yes I am going to go after them until they exit that boundary. I do happen to think that horses SHOULD be watching out for people. I want my horses to watch where their feet go, if my 1000 lbs. horse doesn't pay attention to feet, body, head etc. there can be some dangerous situations. The fact that you think this is unbelievable is a little unbelievable to me but I'm not going to criticize how you handle your horses as they are YOUR horses. Everyone trains differently and has different ideas. Just because physical punishment doesn't work with one horse, doesn't mean it won't work with another. All horses are different and must be handeled as such. That being said there are certain perameters that I set that I won't break and every horse I work with must work within them. How we go about working within them changes from horse to horse but I digress. 

Basically what I'm trying to say to the OP is unless the horse is getting abused in a denotative sense then the OP should probably leave well enough alone.


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

one thing about posting on a forum like this is that we really don't know exactly what is going on. We are getting second hand information via the viewpoint of someone we also don't really know. To me from the info we have this young lady is giving her horse conflicting signals and possibly creating a problem horse. However her father is aware of the issue and there appear to be some other adults around. All the original poster can really do is make some friendly suggestions and talk to adults in charge and express her concerns. If real abuse is going on hopefully an adult will step in.

As for horses stepping on people, we have a bratty pony that most certainly steps on feet on purpose and I do tap her with a crop and back her up if she does it obviously on purpose. However I am very aware of where her feet are and am very careful as I know its an issue with her.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I really don't care HOW "little" it hurts the horse, it's still mentally damaging and eventually you WILL get the horse you smack around one to many times and goes on the fight.
> 
> 
> Repeatedly smacking your horse either with hand or leadrope in a situation it doesn't understand scares the wits out of it. So I tend to get annoyed with people who say we "can't hurt horses" with our physical being. When we get angry, we become frightening to horses, and mental damage is just as bad as physical.
> ...


May I ask - how long have you had horses and how many have you handled? How many have you trained from day one? You seem to have a rose colored view of horses response to any type of stimulation.

You contradict yourself. Animals are not human - yet you want us to explain things to them?


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## lovemyponies (Jul 26, 2008)

I have to agree horses are not human and should not be treated as such and sometimes they need to be punished and often physical discipline is the way. In the pasture horses communicate by nipping, kicking, etc. Just like with dogs we have to treat them as dogs (think Cesar's methods) and they will be much happier. It is the same for horses. My horse was raised by a very dominant trainer. When I got her I knew would have an issue maintaining her respect. I have had issues with it off and on. Sometimes when she gets fresh I carry a crop with me when leading her and use it to tap her and make her back out of my space, etc. 

We have a pony that has ground manner issues and sometimes she does get smacked (she is nippy and we are making progress unteaching this behavior) I think we all have our ways of dealing with horses. I don't think smacking constantly really works but sometimes it is necessary. My old horse used to be very bratty with her ground manners and I tried to be very calm and kind about it. One day I just hauled off and smacked her told her no more. Guess what she started to respect me after that. 

Each horse and situation is different. I whole heartedly disagree with a novice youngster not being supervised or corrected when wrongly disciplining a horse, but unfortunately there is not much we can do, but hopefully the OP will speak up to adults at the barn.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I've been riding and working with horses since I was born, so almost 24 years. Thanks for asking.

I have no "rose colored" view. I am not against physical discipline in anyway. I was merely replying to the commentary of it being acceptable to smack your horse around for stepping on your foot. She didn't bother explaining in what circumstances, merely that she found it acceptable to physically discipline your horse for small infractions. I fully agree with disciplining a horse who isn't respecting your bubble, who's stepping on your feet only because he isn't paying attention to you and is becoming a danger.

My issue was with actually telling the OP to "mind her own business" because somehow as humans, we have the right to smack around our animals any way we see fit. Yes, it is a judgement call, as we aren't there, but if this child is repeatedly smacking her horse with a leadrope who's already suffered unthinkable abuse in her life, then that IS cruelty and she SHOULD work to find ways to end it.

I have worked with so many abused horses in my lifetime, it makes me absolutely sick that someone would just start hitting them for something so stupid.

And I'm not understanding whatsoever your implication that "explaining" is a human thing. Explaining does not automatically mean "talk English", it means proceed in a way that is understood by whatever party you are conveying your message to, be it horse or otherwise. That message comes in numerous forms, but traumatizing a horse that doesn't have one IOTA of a clue why it's being disciplined is just as good at cursing out someone in a foreign language. They won't understand and everyone ends up confused and frustrated, and quite possibly intimidated and scared if the other person is making threatening gestures.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Getting back to the OP, I'd like to add that yes you have been given quite a bit of advice. However, as we have all read, one persons idea of discipline can be another's of abuse.

I haven't read any point blank examples of this abuse this girl is committing to the horse, so some examples would be helpful. Also, talking to the BO/Manager about what you are concerned about and have them observe to see if it is indeed abusive or not. 

I have a few friends that can get very FIRM with discipline, firmer than I would be comfortable with, however they are not abusing the horse and it is in direct relation to the offense. They also show a great deal of affection when appropriate. Their horses are calm (that says a lot right there to me) and very well cared for and yes even loved. Firm is not abusive, but to someone else could look that way. 

Of course like when disciplining children, you do not do so without control over yourself! Too easy to get carried away and cross the line. Perhaps that is what is happening with this girl? No control over her own emotional state.


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## SpiritJordanRivers (May 31, 2009)

Thanks again for the advice. My plan is to tell her to stop when I see her next and if she doesn't, I'll go talk to an adult.

By the way, We were crossing the creek after a trail ride. The horses were galloping all around across the creek and back. Regina was leading Dancer across the stream (she's scared of them from when the people at John Walker Stables dragged her in). Dancer stepped on her foot in the stream, that's when she screamed and started hitting her.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Can I just add that a horse can't see the nose on it's face? And unless it actually twists its head to the side and looks down, it can't see it's feet either? A horse being in your space is one thing, so push them away before their feet are tangling with yours.


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