# Mouthy colt- I don't want to give up on him.



## Countrygal892000 (Apr 17, 2009)

DON'T GIVE UP ON YOUR BABY! Since he is your dream come true please just be persistent. I know you have been told this many times but here are a couple of tips to help you. First off, he is very young. I don't know when he was weaned, but weaning a foal too early will cause them to be mouthy. Also he could be teething. I would try giving him some play toys that are very soft and squishy. Like the dumb bells they have for horses. Start off on the ground with him. If he tries to grab the lead rope or bite your shirt send him away. If he invades your space shoo him away with the lead rope or lunge him for a minute or two. You can also try putting a lead rope in his mouth as a practice bit so he has something to chew on while you are ponying him. But as I said before... Do not give up. Work with him on space. He is young so he will be mouthy, but let him know that it is not ok to be doing it to you, other horses, or tack.


----------



## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

I agree! Don't give up! I had a really mouthy colt and I just gave him a good smack every time he bit, it took a while but he got to associate biting was bad! lol. Have you tried the hot potato trick yet? What you do it bake a potato and take out it of the oven and put on the outside of your coat but tie it on with a bandanna or something so it looks like part of you and he will get the hot in his mouth. You want to put it where he bits you most often so he will bite right onto it. I have heard you can go in there an really rile them up to make them bite or just wait for them to bit it, either way, they take a bit right onto that searing hot potato and they associate that pain with biting.
I have only heard of this a few times, I might not be telling you how to do it right so I would research more, but its worth a shot.


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Have you tried ignoring it? You could be, in his mind, rewarding him for the behavior with attention (the correction). 
I know that with Lacey, and a few other people-oriented horses/ponies I've been around, if I start correcting her for certain bad behaviors, she starts getting worse. But, if I ignore them, she figures out that she gets no where and stops.

Also, how are you correcting? Are you using the same amount of correction each time or are you starting small (low pressure/light correction) and moving up to a "come to Jesus" moment (very high pressure, make him think he's going to die, etc) when he doesn't stop with the light correction?

Totally OT, but: if it makes you feel better, I got a kitten a few months before your Mr. Zane was born and he's my first cat in years and my first baby animal ever. He's also had a mouthing/biting issue from day one. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong and I really don't think I am doing anything wrong. I never play with him with my hands, I correct him each time he bites, etc, but he still bites like a little rabid lion.
Now, I had basically given up even trying to solve it. I kind of became resigned to the fact that my cat is always going to be nippy and that's just who he is.
But you know what? Now, about a month after I just gave up on fixing it, he's stopped biting so much. he still bites about once a day but it's no where near the 5-6 bites a day I was receiving when he was younger. I've begun to wonder if maybe the biting thing isn't just him being a kitten and now that he's almost out of the real kitten-y part of his life (he's 9 months old), maybe he's going to grow out of it. I'll bet that he's always going to be mouthy but hopefully not bite-y.


Also, in response to the lady ponying her foal: different personalities! Her baby is probably just one of those "A+ in every class" babies! And your baby is a "sexy, smart but troubled, tough guy". You can't expect the tough guy to be the poster child for good behavior too, right? :lol:

Don't give up! 
When I first got Lacey, I felt so hopeless every time I worked with her. I began to really dread going to the barn since I felt like we were getting nowhere. But, after a year of crying every time I worked with her (and I'm not a crier), something finally clicked and now we're inseparable. It felt like it took forever, but I feel like it makes my relationship with Lacey so much sweeter since I know how bad she really can be.
I bet that once you and Zane click, you'll be amazing. I'll bet he's the horse you need, instead of the one you want, you know? Like, he's the one that will open doors to things that you never thought you'd see open.
Keep it up! I'm rooting for you.


----------



## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

A quick fix for just being able to pony / lead him for now would be a cavesson. It prevents him from opening his mouth and biting while you are able to exercise him a bit. Hopefully, this will get some of his energy worked out & help you to gain confidence. Then once you are able to start working with him, you need to "man up" and give this guy the serious business when he tries to bite you. There comes a time when you need to whoop some a$$ to get him to respect you. Don't just smack him once for biting you, smack him a couple times, holler out a "hey" or "no" and get his feet moving immediately. How hard you smack him is relative to the amount of force it takes to get his attention. Some horses are more responsive than others and it is a matter of getting a feel for his reaction. The goal is to eventually get a response from your voice/ body language without any physical force.
You also should refrain from all hand fed treats until he gets past this. Another issue to consider is his point situation. Is he in a "herd" where he has older higher up n the pecking order horses to teach him to respect them, or is he out with other colts/ lower pecking order horses doing whatever he pleases?


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

:hug: I know it gets discouraging but don't give up. He is still just a baby and he will grow out of it eventually.

I wonder if he wouldn't really benefit from just being ignored completely for a while. You know, catch him up for shots and the farrier and other than that, just leave him alone. Don't pet him, don't catch him, nothing.


----------



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

for such a seemingly insignificant problem you seem to be pretty saddened by it. 

2 things, whenever he mouths something you don't want him too, stop him from doing so. don't attack him for doing it, but don't allow him to do it. do just enough to get him to stop, then leave him alone for a while (if he returns & continues, do the same again)
and try taking advantage of it to build his overall self confidence, find something that horses normally **** bricks at (a tarp is a good one) and ask him with your halter to be mouthy on that. don't (as before) be pulling with all your might on the halter, but don't just let him run away from it. lead him into it at a pace he's comfy with and ask him to drop his head down onto it.

also if he bites, feel free to block him. i find an en elbow or forearm to be effective. your not trying to hit the horse, your just trying to prevent any further advancment of your horses head. and if he's faster than you in this little battle and he gets close enough to bite, then you lose & he wins. nomatter how much you "discipline" him afterwards (as many other horsepeople will suggest), you've still lost & he's still won.


----------



## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

There are basically two schools of thought on biting: One is like John Lyons says to do: try to "kill" your horse on his neck (not head) for 3 seconds. It'll scare him more than hurt him. The other is to make as little of a deal out of it as possible, to ignore the mouthiness that comes from a young & curious horse, block it (never get into smacking or horse'll make it a game of trying to bite & duck the smack), & getting the horse busy so that he forgets about mouthiness. Another important part of the "no big deal" approach is to give the mouthy horse lots of manual stimulation, because he needs it (horsenality type); rub his muzzle, slide a finger over his top gum, etc., then, if he escalates, rub him harder than he likes, so *he's* the one to pull away, satisfied with all of the initial "mouth attention".

I've never tried John Lyons' way, but I can vouch that the second way works often.

A really helpful plan for you, I think, is to *di*rect your horse, not *co*rrect him all of the time. Direct him to establish leadership & to eliminate giving him time to get nippy & then your having to correct that.


----------



## ButtInTheDirt (Jan 16, 2011)

Don't give up on him! You definately are a better person than alot of people I know who, the second anything goes wrong, they want to just get rid of the problem. The fact that you kept him through all of his problems so far says alot. I certaintly think he will grow out of his mouthyness soon enough if you keep the consistent training.

When I got my first horse, he was definately not a beginners horse. He had the same problem with excessive mouthyness. When I started training it was just all wrong, but I moved to a different trainer and he got alot better. He will see what he can get away with, but a swift kick in the rump get's him back on track and he's good for the rest of the lesson. Some other people mentioned this. But when he starts with that just take controll of his feet, back him up, tack his space and his time since you took yours. Some of the parelli games might help with this. Just look them up on youtube because it wouldn't much be worth it to buy the videos, in my opinion. You can adjust the exercises as needed.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks guys! I got so many kind responses, it's hard to know how to respond to all of them. But I'll give it a go. :smile: 

I do feel a lot better today. Today I didn't "do" anything with him other than feed him and pet on him a bit. What I like to do, which is something I did today, is carry a crop and then go out and groom him or give him treats (yes, my bad) and make him stand patiently a few feet away before I give him one. Or ask him to side pass on the ground (which he actually does quite well) and then give him a treat. Or back up and stand politely for a treat. He will do those things at liberty without even a halter on. Or I will groom on him a bit and have the crop handy just to use as a want to tell him to back up or if his face does get too close, to ask him to move away. Our problems seem to be mainly with ponying and leading. He gets "attitude" when on a lead rope and I almost wonder if it isn't a playful thing. It's either playful or dominance, I'm not sure which, where he kind of gets bouncy, pushy and nippy.

I call it nipping (and not biting) because he has bit me three times since he was born, where he used his teeth. What he normally does when he is being lead is sort of snake his head and threaten. Or try to grab a piece of tack and chew it. Really, it's the exact same thing he does with my older gelding (which is the horse I pony him from) when they are loose together, except it's a tamer version. Zane rears and bites and practically mauls the older gelding to get him to play. So I think when I pony I am fighting this instinct to play like he does when they are loose together.

I think one of the major things that went wrong yesterday is that I only had a couple hours to ride and I normally turn him loose to let him run out on the forest. Yesterday I didn't. First, because I was short on time, and secondly because I think I need to curtail the running wild and keep him on lead more, but I dunno, maybe he really needs that running loose time to burn off steam.



Countrygal892000 said:


> I don't know when he was weaned, but weaning a foal too early will cause them to be mouthy. Also he could be teething. I would try giving him some play toys that are very soft and squishy.


Zane isn't actually weaned yet. I aim to do that in the next couple of weeks when the weather (hopefully) improves. The pen that I will put him in where he doesn't share the fence line with his mom doesn't have a shelter. That's why I have put off weaning him. He's a really independent sort of guy though! 

He does have 5 toys to play with. Two jolly balls, a basketball and a couple of big plastic things from the dollar store. So he does have some acceptable chewing options, and he does love his toys. The jolly ball with a rope on it is his favorite.

A friend gave me a small, 4 1/2 inch I believe, snaffle bit for him to be his first bit, and he has worn it a couple of times. I might try letting him wear it when I pony him just as a pacifier to see if he still tries to nip and chew.



Gizmo said:


> I agree! Don't give up! I had a really mouthy colt and I just gave him a good smack every time he bit, it took a while but he got to associate biting was bad! lol. Have you tried the hot potato trick yet?


I don't know about the potato thing. He mostly doesn't make actual contact with me. It's more like a game of "I'll nip at you and you see if you can get me back." I think the nipping is like a game of tag to him.



Wallaby said:


> Have you tried ignoring it? You could be, in his mind, rewarding him for the behavior with attention (the correction).
> 
> Also, how are you correcting?
> 
> ...


I haven't tried ignoring the behavior. Maybe I should. I guess I have been in the camp of "make him think he is dying for three seconds" school of thought. I guess what made me realize this could be serious is that I have John Lyons book "Lyons on Horses" and he says biting is one of the worst things a horse could ever do because it is a sign of disrespect. Worse even than kicking. But Zane really doesn't make contact (unless it's to chew on something) but I am afraid it will escalate if I don't try to fix it. He has bitten me on three occasions, but I go ballistic on him when he does it, so that is why I think it is more threats than actual bites now. Unless it is all a big game of tag to him. :-x 

I admit I have smacked him on the nose, chest, butt, just about everywhere with a crop and/or my hand. And used a stud chain and jerked it when he goes to bite. I've tried dousing my reins, his lead rope, my chaps, anything that he frequently goes for, with hot sauce, which he doesn't like, but when the hot sauce dries it doesn't stop him anymore. 

I've done a lot of stuff that to me is borderline cruel, but I figured if it would stop the behavior then the ends justify the means. Because if I don't get him straightened out I can't keep him. But even what to me seems like drastic measures, hasn't fixed anything. Other than to make him a bit head shy. :-(

I keep hoping that if I can get him and I through this, then I will be a better horsewoman for it, because I will have found my way through things I have never had to work my way through with horses before. But if I fail, then it will be an epic fail. Because I want to succeed. This is one thing I do not want to fail at. My foals life could be depending on it.


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Ugh, I wrote such a novel that it wouldn't all fit into one post. Here is the second half. 



CCH said:


> A quick fix for just being able to pony / lead him for now would be a cavesson.
> 
> You also should refrain from all hand fed treats until he gets past this. Another issue to consider is his point situation. Is he in a "herd" where he has older higher up n the pecking order horses to teach him to respect them, or is he out with other colts/ lower pecking order horses doing whatever he pleases?


I've been guilty of hand feeding him treats. But I figure he should be smart enough to know the difference between me handing him something and him being obnoxious when being lead or ponied. But maybe not. 

I would like to get him into a herd situation where he is NOT the highest on the pecking order. Right now, he is in with his mom and an older gelding I have. Zane pretty well rules the roost. The gelding is dominant when it comes to food, but other than that, Zane climbs all over him and bites him everywhere. He climbs all over his mom too. 

I haven't tried a cavesson. Maybe I should try one. It couldn't hurt! 



smrobs said:


> :hug: I know it gets discouraging but don't give up. He is still just a baby and he will grow out of it eventually.
> 
> I wonder if he wouldn't really benefit from just being ignored completely for a while. You know, catch him up for shots and the farrier and other than that, just leave him alone. Don't pet him, don't catch him, nothing.


I pray he will grow out of it. I just can't seem to break him of it.

I have told myself I would leave him alone on many occasions, but I just can't seem to do it. It starts like, well, I'll bring him out and groom him. Then I will stick him in the round pen away from his mom for a little while. Then if I do that, I might as well go in there and ask him to run around a bit and change directions. Then the next think I know I am ponying him out. I just can't seem to keep myself from trying to work with him. I tell myself he _should_ pony. He _should_ lead. I _should_ be able to take him places and the exercise is good for him. And then I get all frustrated when he behaves badly.



christopher said:


> for such a seemingly insignificant problem you seem to be pretty saddened by it.
> 
> 2 things, whenever he mouths something you don't want him too, stop him from doing so. don't attack him for doing it, but don't allow him to do it. do just enough to get him to stop, then leave him alone for a while (if he returns & continues, do the same again)
> and try taking advantage of it to build his overall self confidence, find something that horses normally **** bricks at (a tarp is a good one) and ask him with your halter to be mouthy on that. don't (as before) be pulling with all your might on the halter, but don't just let him run away from it. lead him into it at a pace he's comfy with and ask him to drop his head down onto it.
> ...


Maybe it isn't a significant problem. I sure hope it isn't. I would love to look back on this and laugh at my foolishness! I guess I just have a fear that he will only get worse if I can't fix him ASAP.

He is actually a really bold, confident colt. He _can_ spook if something moves suddenly. But take tarps for instance, he loves them and thinks they are toys. I introduced those to him when he was just a wee lad. So now he thinks they are to chew up and paw on. I agree I should stop the behavior from happening rather than trying to correct it after it happens, but it just seems like that is easier said than done. 



Northern said:


> There are basically two schools of thought on biting: One is like John Lyons says to do: try to "kill" your horse on his neck (not head) for 3 seconds. It'll scare him more than hurt him. The other is to make as little of a deal out of it as possible, to ignore the mouthiness that comes from a young & curious horse, block it (never get into smacking or horse'll make it a game of trying to bite & duck the smack), & getting the horse busy so that he forgets about mouthiness. Another important part of the "no big deal" approach is to give the mouthy horse lots of manual stimulation, because he needs it (horsenality type); rub his muzzle, slide a finger over his top gum, etc., then, if he escalates, rub him harder than he likes, so *he's* the one to pull away, satisfied with all of the initial "mouth attention".
> 
> I've never tried John Lyons' way, but I can vouch that the second way works often.
> 
> A really helpful plan for you, I think, is to *di*rect your horse, not *co*rrect him all of the time. Direct him to establish leadership & to eliminate giving him time to get nippy & then your having to correct that.


I have tried the "kill him for 3 seconds" approach with minimal success. :sad: I haven't tried ignoring the behavior or going right to his mouth and actually mouthing him back, so to speak. Maybe that is something I should try. He wouldn't be expecting that anyway! I will try to direct him better. I think a part of it could be boredom. My Mustang gelding that I pony Zane from walks pretty slow, and I noticed that if I can pick up the pace a bit, then it is harder for Zane to grab a bite of tack, horse, or clothing. :lol:



ButtInTheDirt said:


> When I got my first horse, he was definately not a beginners horse. He had the same problem with excessive mouthyness. When I started training it was just all wrong, but I moved to a different trainer and he got alot better.
> 
> Some of the parelli games might help with this. Just look them up on youtube because it wouldn't much be worth it to buy the videos, in my opinion.


I do think I am in need of a trainer. My father suggests that I save my money for saddle breaking in a few years. But I am afraid that if I don't get the ground manners ironed out, then Zane won't be here in a few years for me to worry about saddle breaking! I think that if I could get this issue resolved, then everything else would fall into place, perhaps even saddle breaking. 

I should look up the Parelli games on You-tube. I know a lot of folks dislike Parelli, but I am at need of some exercises I can do with Zane that will hopefully earn me a leadership position. :lol:

Teaching him things has been easy. He ponies, ties, leads, picks up his feet, sidepasses, moves of of pressure, backs up, yields his hind quarters, etc. I can put saddle blankets, cinches, and a bit on him. (He actually enjoys chewing the bit I think!). Teaching him "stuff" has been easy. But I am afraid he is disrespectful and I guess "spoiled" might be the word I am looking for. I knew that could be a problem, and I thought I was teaching him correctly by working with him young and trying to get the jump on things while he was still small. I always worked on him moving off of pressure and such. I thought I was teaching him right. Now I don't know if I have created a spoiled monster or a normal (but mouthy) colt.

I guess that's part of my problem. Because he is the first colt I have raised, I don't know what's normal and what is trouble on the horizon. And sometimes I read on the forum about people who's colts are so mellow and practically born broke. Why did my baby become a hellion? I even got him gelded at 5 months. Sigh! :sad:


----------



## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

Trailhorserider, don't give up. You've heard my story; my Dallas reminds me so much of your colt. We went through the same stuff. He stopped getting treats out of my hand about 2 years ago and he still shows eternal optimism, nuzzling me on occasion. But, he never puts his mouth/teeth on me any more. I used the John Lyons 3 second thing, and also smacked him (and also made him a little head shy). But, with work, no treats, and simply growing up and getting all his teeth, he's much much better. I think the most important thing was no treats, as hard as that has been. He gets a pat on his face or a scratch, or a treat in a bucket, but never a treat out of hand. I started training him with treats for correct responses, and said "good boy," and he knows what "good boy" means. He still is learning without treats, although - as I said - he still looks around for them in hopes they will appear! The second most important thing was for him to stay out of my 'bubble.' I couldn't get that one done by myself, and when he was sent off to the trainer, they worked on it a lot and now he leads without crowding, etc. 

These guys are just so darn curious that they have to play with everything (with their mouths) and check everything out! Plus they're both food motivated. So, you might really have to figure out how to give him his training treat rewards in a special bucket or something else besides your hand. I believe that they do know (or can learn) the difference between training and not-training rules about treats, but the food drive for those tasty treats is just so strong!


----------

