# First ride with a tie-down..



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

[_quote=Zab;3751100] And, the most crucial thing is that, as the small picture in the picture below shows, I can only pull back the reins to stop him to a certain degree, after that all preassure will go to his throat and if he decides not to listen.. well, he can just let me sit there and pull _
_Even if you ride in just a halter you can se-saw or pull harder or anything if the horse runs with you, or take a one-rein stop, but with this, thae options are pretty limited. So I need him to listen to me.._
_He never tried to run with me the last time, but he was very confused and the stops just didn't really work. You might see why._


> Then why not use a halter? All horses have an off day. I don't want to be on a horse who's having an off day and get killed because I have no way to stop them. What if a deer jumped out at the last second and he freaks out? I know you are trying to be as soft as possible, but there is simply nothing wrong with a halter.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Because I like this, and it had a lot of benefits for me 

And if he ''freaks out'' because of a deer he'll calm down within seconds, far before I manage to do anything anyway 
If he freaks out because of a truck.. well, that doesn't happen since I don't ride where there are trucks, I lead him. He's not traffic proof from the saddle, that's why he might freak out from a truck 

And if he panicks for real, no bit would help anyway since a panicked horse is blocked. Anything but a real panic will be over within seconds, or if he gets nervous or something unexpected ad scary shows up that's not less scary after he has seen it, he stops to stare at it and there's plenty of time for me to get off safely (_which I would anyway since a bit wouldn't help there either and my philosophy is that I lead him through it, not whip him through it_) even if he's really excited/stressed/nervous/scared he always listen to my stop signals, They're very light. I've had him sitting down on the ground because he was so scared of a thing and really wanted to go, but I said ''no'' with my voice and blocked his sides with my feet and his nose with a slight move of the rein when he tried going forward. He wanted to rear but didn't because he knew that wasn't ok, so he sat down, prepared to just jump out from the situation but still not going against my very light stop signal, with a riding cavesson. (_then there are days where he does test me, but that's more my going the wrong way, ignoring a leg aid or so on, never running or anything dangerous. Those days I'd go back and take the snaffle just in case, even tho it usually wears off in a few minutes. _) He might back up or try to turn around or half-prance even; if it's really, really, really scary, but even then I have plenty of time to safely get off him. And bit or no bit, halter or whatever doesn't matter there, he does it since he's too nervous/afraid/stressed to just stand still, if so I sawed the mouth of with a chainsaw chain he wouldn't just stand there nicely since he's incapable of doing that due to his own stress. As a last resort, I could lean forward and grab the nosepart to stop him, or pull a lot in one rein to bend his head.

I know my horse and trust him, and I've put him through so many situations that I know how he react and how to read him 

The only time a bit (or halter) would help more than this is if he deliberatly chooses to ignore me, which he doesn't since he's the kind of hore that would turn himself inside out to please his person. Well, not ignore my stop signals in that way. If he got eager and hard to stop it's not the dangerous way either. It's the ''ok, then run untill you're satisfied but keep calm'' way or I'll convince him to listen but have to give it more time and a harsh voice. But as I said, he'd never ''run''-run, on a bad day he might ''i'll slow down eventually and stop later-slowly slowing down''-run..

And, when it comes to other, smaller situations, as turning or bending etc, the detail work, then a bit or a halter helps. But that's the problem with them I just learn to correct him instead of me, and all the nice experiences I got wouldn't be there.


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Suit yourself, it was only an opinion.

Glad it's working for you.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

You know me, btw. I've tried crazier things than this  
Life is a game to me and I play it as best as I can. Which in my case mean to try everything that feels right and fun and regret nothing, even if it's not always the safest side of the road. I know the risks and I do think before I take them, but sometimes the feelings tells me it's worth the risks. Even without any logical reason


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Lol, lil daredevil, you!


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Nah, just sometimes


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

you would never get me to ride is something like that. That certainly is NOT a normal standing martingale. NOt that I would consider a standing martingale either but it sure beats that thing


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> you would never get me to ride is something like that. That certainly is NOT a normal standing martingale. NOt that I would consider a standing martingale either but it sure beats that thing


...what are you talking about? O__o; Standing martingale? Beats what thing?

I'm not going to try and make you ride anything.


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

I haven't a clue what he's trying to spit out. Maybe he hates tie-downs, lol?


----------



## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

Seems like the rope halter thing a friends uses occasionally. It has reins that sort of "tie" together part way to part around the neck, and allow you to press against the neck to signal stop, like this (hard to explain)

It works really well for her jumper!


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Does she use it under her bridle or jst the halter? 

Rope halters are actually more 'severe' than this one, due to their pressure points and a few other things.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Sunny06 said:


> I haven't a clue what he's trying to spit out. Maybe he hates tie-downs, lol?


 
I definitely do hate tie downs. A horse trips and throws it's head to rebalance itstelf.. You are totally limiting his ability in the event of a slip. Don't go near water either. Horses can not swim with a tie down.
A standing martingale is the same thing. A band around the nose and a strap running down the chest and between the front legs holding the horses head down. Ropers use them alot. They have been around forever.
Have a horse fall and do a head over heals thing with that and you end up with a dead horse from a broken neck.
Do most of you know the difference between a running and a standing martingale????


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> I definitely do hate tie downs. A horse trips and throws it's head to rebalance itstelf.. You are totally limiting his ability in the event of a slip. Don't go near water either. Horses can not swim with a tie down.
> A standing martingale is the same thing. A band around the nose and a strap running down the chest and between the front legs holding the horses head down. Ropers use them alot. They have been around forever.
> Have a horse fall and do a head over heals thing with that and you end up with a dead horse from a broken neck.
> Do most of you know the difference between a running and a standing martingale????


Please read the text and look at the pictures again.
I use the tie-down nose part, but if you look, there is no strap between the breast collar and the tie-down, I've just put the reins in the nose part and use that instead of a bit/bridle.
So, what I end up with is a stupidly gentle 'bridle' that can't force the horse to pretty much anything, but can give him clear signals of what I want him to do, and together with a lot of focus on my seat and leg-aids, can get a good riding. That I tend to cheat with otherwise by picking the reins in good and bad times.

And yes, a running martingale only affects the horse when you pull the reins, a standing martingale always stop the horse from throwing the head up, even without reins.
I don't use anything like that, if I get a problem with a horse I personally prefer a combination with a stronger bit as an emergency break, and the regular bit as the one I actually use (_i.e. loose reins on the strong bit at all times unless it's a dangerous situation_), if anything extra at all, that is. But I havn't needed that. First and foremost it's good training that's important, not the use of extra tools. Which is why I see pride in being able to ride my horse decently with this ''soft bosal'' made by a tie-down, or the equal of a standing martingale, instead of a bridle and without actually tying the nose down.
Putting extra straps and ''inventions'' rarely ever help the problem, it just teaches the horse to ''cheat'' to get away from it. Riding a horse well comes from the seat, not the straps or by putting harsher bits in if the horse doesn't obey the gentle ones (_unless in emergencies caused by the disobedience/confused horse, it's not good riding if you need to use the sharp bit then, but it's survival. Also, changing to a harsh bit to get a more clear answer from a horse -that works well with a regular bit but can benefit from the different signals in another bit that happens to be more severe- is also a different thing. Then it's not correcting a problem or forcing, but guiding the horse and showing it in a different way._)


----------



## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

Thank you Zab. I was just getting ready to explain that haha.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I am sorry Zab.. I read the title " first ride with a tie down" and looked quickly at the picture and came to the conclusion that you were riding with the head tied down and just using a pair of reins off the tie down.
I got it wrong, your title is misleading since there is no tie down involved.
Again I am sorry for jumping to conclusions.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

eventnwithwinston : 

Riosdad: It's ok, but next time you're going to bash someone, read the text. You might find helpful information there, that will gve you more to get mad at, or find out that things arn't what they seem 
The title's there to get attention.. >)


----------



## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Interesting, it took me awhile to figure out what you were doing too! I have to say when I saw the title I was like "why the heck is she using a tie-down? I've seen her posts and horse and she doesn't seem the type to use one or even need one." But I'm coming from an area where everyone and their mother has one on their horse to keep it's head down (god forbid they take the time to train the horse!) *resisting urge to rant*

But it sounds like it had some nice benefits for you and Crow. I probably won't try it any time soon, but it'll sit in the back of my head and maybe someday when Soda is further along we'll try it. With my old mare I used to use a peice of soft rope around her nose to ride her sometimes when us kids were playing cowboys/indians. Never outside of the pasture though!


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I rode for 20 years without a bit and now I wonder why. I found a light snaffle weighed actually less then my side pulls, didn't rub the hair off the nose from continual use and regardless of how well your horse is trained even a mild snaffle has more control.
I gave up bitless and moved to a bit.


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Zab, I think the reason that you are having problems is because tie-downs are not meant to be ridden in. They are designed to give a horse something to brace against for power during speed events when hard stops and turns are needed (barrels, roping, etc). If you wanted something bitless with a bit more bite, I would suggest a rawhide braided bosal. However, those are pretty expensive. 

I bet you can get by with that, Crow will just have to be taught how to react to the different pressures. It does look really good on him though. ;p


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Thanks for the replies 

First of all; I'm not recommending this to anyone 

Second; I ride Crow with all kinds of bits and bitless as well, and I don't agree that a snaffle has more control than a bitless. A severe bit or bitless might give more control, but only in situations where the horse doesn't listen because he finds you unworthy to listen to, not when he's afraid or scared. I agree that this particular version is less able to control the horse vs a snaffle or other bitless, but that's also why I got benefits from it 

I didn't have any problems at all after the first 15 minutes when Crow and I figured how to communicate without my constant corrections in the left or right rein. Last time I tried, in march, we didn't get it to work tho. And I take that as a proof that my riding has become better, in my point of view nd to my goals.


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Zab said:


> eventnwithwinston :


What does _this_ mean?


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Sunny06 said:


> What does _this_ mean?


I was replying with a smiley to Eventwithwinston and clearified that with putting the name first


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

I read your opening post but I must have missed it....Why not just use a bosal?


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Haha, nifty idea!

I agree with you to - I have more control over my Arab mare just riding in a halter then I do with a bit. She has a sensitive face, and is much more responsive. She doesn't neckrein well yet though, so I may hold off on your idea, hehehehe.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Spastic_Dove said:


> I read your opening post but I must have missed it....Why not just use a bosal?


A bosal isn't very gentle, and simply.. I want to be able to use as gentle means as possible  Plus, I don't have any bosal. And the entire point with this change was to get away from my control-freakiness with the reins and teach the horse to walk right by himself (which he already can if I just let him  etcc, so a real bosal isn't really what I was after.

And btw to all of you, this doesn't mean I'll ride with that everytime forever, I'll still switch headstall and bits x)


----------



## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

Sunny06 said:


> What does _this_ mean?


I had typed out like the same explanation for a martingale, breast collar, etc... but she had posted before me so I just deleted it and put something like (I was about to say the same thing ) .
Zab responded with a smiley-- like so


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Got it


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I ran my old endurance horse for 17 years with sidepulls but near the end of his career i switched to a simple snaffle because it was lighter and saved the hair on his nose.. Ride enough miles and anything laying on the skin creates a wear including his fly mask
My daughter up running a 50


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

That's actually a really cute picture!


----------



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Zab. It srikes me that the best thing The Horse Forum is doing for you is to think out and write what you perceive to be your problems with your horse - and in English which is not your native tongue. Well done.
So long as you are trying to work out what your horse is thinking and you persist in checking if what you are thinking is actually correct, then eventually all should come right.
Pressure from any type of halter or tie down should be minimal. Ask the horse first, demand second and then absolutely insist third. The lighter the request the better.
But whilst your chap is young then you'll have to spend most of your time assuring him that he has nothing to fear. No whips, no aggressive voice
just constant re assurance. Hopefully he'll grow out of his adolesence
However you have not mentioned his age or his breeding. Remember we all have to learn to grow up.
Barry G

PS Neck reining, turning left - well for you easy: start by holding both reins in the left hand - held high without hand contact - the weight of the reins being only contact on bit. Squeeze/twist the left hand but turn him with your body, head/neck and thighs and lay the reins over the right side of horse's neck. Put slight left pressure on reins whilst they are lying on the neck. Drop the body weight down onto the stirrup on side of the turn and maybe add a touch of left heel into flank. As turn is complete lift reins high and remove all pressure.
Start practising at walk, move up to trot then try slow canter.

Repeat exercise regularly, preferably at the same spot. He'll learn to neck rein when you are holding the reins only in one hand.

Remember the idea of neck reining is to allow the rider to use lariat and to ride one handed - especially at speed. Horse must be self balancing and used to being ridden off the bit. You, being European schooled might have to get used to leaning over when at the canter but only once the horse has got the knack of balancing itself with you aboard.

I don't ever try this with my Irish heavy hunter - she's not that supple. But my Welsh Cob used to do it beautifully and he would turn on a sixpence. If your horse is a light Thorobred then he will quickly get the idea.

Barry G


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Thank you for the advice, however I must have been unclear 
I don't have any problems with my horse  We don't know neck-reining, but it's nothing that I aim for either. I turn him by weight 
He's not a western horse and I'm not a western rider, and turning at that speed isn't something we practice or need 
I'm not sure if you noticed that the tie down is instead of a bit or bridle, as in it's not used as a tie-down at all. It's not connected to the breast collar or saddle, but instead has two reins. Just clearifying..

The problems I've mentioned was those of our first try some months ago, and also the things I noticed, and already started to overcome, at the last ride.

Simply, this thread is just a note on how my training has given the kind of result I aim for 

Oh, and for your curiosity, he's a 7 years old standardbred, gaited and started under saddle this winter (2008/2009).


----------



## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Zab. This writing for a blog seems to be a new art form. There is neither tone of voice nor smile or frown to help with exact interpretation. I must remember not to let my 7 yo Irish DraughtX Connemara mare Delta read any of the tens of thousands of words I have written about her. I already have the impression that there is little I can hide from her in my voice, nor my look, nor my touch nor my body language. If ever she learns to read - even the typed word- I'll be sunk. I'll have no secrets. She already knows she can pretend to be frightened by a paper bag and that she can always do a quick violent snatch to the ground if she wants her own way. Even in THF, I still can't find an adequate deterrent or worse - a cause for a move which can almost pull me out of the saddle. I won't tie her down and she knows it.
Delta doesn't try it on so much with my wife but maybe it is because the two females know how to keep a mere male in his place. I have the fond dream that, as a Gentleman's Riding Horse, one day she'll take me down to the pub alongside the main road but I know she won't approve of even one glass of wine. She'll pretend to be frightened of the traffic.
The more you get to know these horses - the more clever you realize they are.
Barry G


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

I don't quite see what that has to do with anything here..


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

You really don't know much about bosals. The bosal is traditionally used after a horse is very soft in the snaffle and is neck reining and stopping with very little pressure on the reins. It is transitory to going into a spade bit in the making of a bridle horse. That tie-down that you have is not designed to be used as a principle head gear. Tiedowns are used by people who don't know how to properly use thier hands to acheive softness in their horses. Your horse doesn't have the foundation to be ridding him in something like that. I also think that your way too trusting of your horse. A horse when panicked or scared will run 1/4 of a mile without a thought going through his head. You are trusting your life to a horse that is a clostrophobic, panic prone, speed freak(like all horses). You need to build the foundation a little more or you or your horse WILL get hurt.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> Tiedowns are used by people who don't know how to properly use thier hands to acheive softness in their horses.


You really don't know much about tiedowns.


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Barry Godden: What are you trying to say? 

Spastic: I agree, but now that I _really_ think about it, what exactly are they for? Keeping head down, no?


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Spastic Dove Being from Montana you may know of a trainer named Buck Brannaman. He is world renown for his expertise in training horses for all kinds of disiplines. He also shares my opinion of tie-downs as do most if not all of the "natural" horse trainers and clinicians. I did a clinic with Ray Hunt last year and he ranted about tie-downs for half an hour.


----------



## bloodhoundmom28 (Jun 1, 2009)

zab i just read the whole post and the comments i agree with the bosals tend to rub a horse with sensitive skin. I have been working with mtiey horse with just a halter on him and he seems to respond to me better the with the bit (he has a verry sensitive mouth) I applaud you for the thought you have put into finding new means in which to ride your horse and train with. 

Keninshorses

I own a speed event horse that when rideing ANY speed event he MUST have one this is because he uses it to brace and pull if you where to try to run him without it you would end up with a lap full of horse or at the least a broken nose. though when we trail ride i do not use it because it is not needed.


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

^ See that's the thing. Zab isn't using it as it's real purpose. She's using it as a supplement for a halter. I'd just ride in a (fleece padded) halter.


----------



## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

I understand your point of using the gentlest means possible.

But limiting the strength of the bridle because you do not have the experience or expertise in your hands gains you nothing. You don't learn how to be soft with a bit, you're learning how to be soft with something that's already soft.

Work with something that's meant to be used as a principle piece of head gear and work on YOUR hands. Whatever is on the horse--tie down, bridle, halter, WHATEVER--is ONLY as soft as YOUR hands are.


----------



## bloodhoundmom28 (Jun 1, 2009)

i ride in a padded halter. But if i couldnt aford one then i guess a tie down would work if i had one laying about. Perhaps she is just working into going bridleless?


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mayfieldk said:


> I understand your point of using the gentlest means possible.
> 
> But limiting the strength of the bridle because you do not have the experience or expertise in your hands gains you nothing. You don't learn how to be soft with a bit, you're learning how to be soft with something that's already soft.
> 
> Work with something that's meant to be used as a principle piece of head gear and work on YOUR hands. Whatever is on the horse--tie down, bridle, halter, WHATEVER--is ONLY as soft as YOUR hands are.


What she said. You don't make a horse soft by riding with something soft. Too soft like a padded halter just makes the horse hard. They don't respect it, they don't respond all the time to suttle movements, suttle commands. Rubber bits fall in this same catagory.
I prefer to ride with more bit then I need but soft soft hands until it is time to not be soft.
What if every time you speed a cop just said PLEASE SLOW DOWN, PLEASE. Would we respect the law?? NO.
Get slapped with a few heavy fines and you slow right down.
It is the same with a horse. Saying PLEASE doesn't work. Slap the fine on him and he will learn.
You can ride with a harsh bit , use very soft gentle hands, send commands with the legs, the body weight shift and the weight of the reins and only after all this fails use the bit. The horse learns not to wait for the bit if the bit is harsh. That is how you make a soft horse.
Not with tie downs, not with rubber/plastic bits, not with padded haulters.
You want a horse to listen? Get his attention.
I rode in a hoola hoop, he was great but do you think I would use it on a daily bases?? Never. It was too uncomfortable for my hands and too uncomfortable leading the horse down the lane.
You guys are just using gimmics to pretend you are so very gentle.
It does more harm to the horse them good.
Like she said. Learn to be gentle with the hands, not the gimics.


----------



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Yes, I do know of both those trainers and I imagine they were ranting about using tie downs as crutches. 
Tie Downs are not meant to be used to control a hot/heavy/unbalanced horse. They are designed to be used to brace against during speed events. Unfortunately, they are often misused. It is uneducated riders who we should be ranting against, not tack. 

Sunny: Tie downs don't really keep your horses head in any one place nor do I think that is the reason Zab is using a tie down. Like I said, they have their place. Any horse that you need gadgets to control shouldn't be running speed events and obviously should be working on basics.

As far as what RiosDad said, I kind of work the opposite way. I like to use the gentlest means possible, but I still ride with a stainless steel bit as I do like to feel as if I have some control should I need it.


----------



## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Spastic_Dove said:


> Yes, I do know of both those trainers and I imagine they were ranting about using tie downs as crutches.
> Tie Downs are not meant to be used to control a hot/heavy/unbalanced horse. They are designed to be used to brace against during speed events. Unfortunately, they are often misused. It is uneducated riders who we should be ranting against, not tack.


 
I agree with you. Unfortunately in my area the most common use is for controlling hot/heavy/unbalanced/untrained speed event horses. It's the go to solution for someone if their horse runs around with it's head jacked up. So, I admit that I have a little bit of a bias against their use. Anyways, that's not what Zab is using it for and she seems to like the results she's gotten, so kudos to her.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Have we ever heard of respecting OTHER methods? Apparently not in some cases.

From all the idiotic use I see with harsh bits, I can't believe people are acting like what she's doing is a bad thing. That's AWESOME if YOU can use a harsh bit properly, but advocating it's use to everyone is just irresponsible. Unless the horse is properly trained to use a harsh bit, no amount of soft hands are going to help anything. She's already stated she's mostly an English rider.

She's trying different things. We didn't get where we are today by everyone doing the SAME THING. It's great to have an opinion, but honestly, I think some people need to get off their "high horse" so to speak. A bit is nothing more then a tool, just like what she is using is a tool. A horse is TRAINED to respect a bit - I've been on some crazy horses that even a curb wouldn't stop if they put their mind to run away. A horse can be trained to respect a padded halter or tie down in this case, just as well. That's like saying people who ride bridleless have NO control. Brush up on different training methods before you're so quick to put someone down for not doing it YOUR way, please.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> You really don't know much about bosals. The bosal is traditionally used after a horse is very soft in the snaffle and is neck reining and stopping with very little pressure on the reins. It is transitory to going into a spade bit in the making of a bridle horse. That tie-down that you have is not designed to be used as a principle head gear. Tiedowns are used by people who don't know how to properly use thier hands to acheive softness in their horses. Your horse doesn't have the foundation to be ridding him in something like that. I also think that your way too trusting of your horse. A horse when panicked or scared will run 1/4 of a mile without a thought going through his head. You are trusting your life to a horse that is a clostrophobic, panic prone, speed freak(like all horses). You need to build the foundation a little more or you or your horse WILL get hurt.


I know in theory how they work, and I know how sensetive a horses nose is. I know that they are quite severe (but as most severe hedstalls, the riders hand is the key) since they put a very direct preassure on the nose. Which is clear to the horse, but still rather severe. Horse people (example; my farrier who's worked in vet clinics etc and rides western) that use the bosal themselves agree with me there.

I know that the tie down isn't made for riding, but that doesn't stop me.

You're absolutely correct; a panicked horse will run. No matter if I have a te-down-headstall or a spanish curb. They're blocked when they panic and only fools think they can control a panicked horse with force.
All of us here are trusting our lives to a flight animal, really. The best thing to do is training the horse to be less prone to panic. One mean to do this is to get the horse used to different things and to give it responsibility for itself, that teaches it to think before it act.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

mayfieldk said:


> I understand your point of using the gentlest means possible.
> 
> But limiting the strength of the bridle because you do not have the experience or expertise in your hands gains you nothing. You don't learn how to be soft with a bit, you're learning how to be soft with something that's already soft.
> 
> Work with something that's meant to be used as a principle piece of head gear and work on YOUR hands. Whatever is on the horse--tie down, bridle, halter, WHATEVER--is ONLY as soft as YOUR hands are.


I'm afraid I havn't made my thought clear 
I can ride my horse with anything from a spanish curb to a snaffle or this tie down. Without him protesting or getting tense (_which he gets immediatly by hard hands, tho he accepts fiddeling with the reins more than I like to do_)
The thing with the tie-down is that while in a snaffle I can correct the horse without thinking of it, but in this tie-down I must use my weight and seat to make myself understood. Which means that I already know how to do it.. I'm just lazy and need to be reminded to not take the easy way with my hands and risk a false frame. If I ride with this a while longer, I'll have ''re-programmed'' myself to use the seat automatically. A bit like when kids in riding schools ride without reins on a lunge-line to learn balance; without the reins to balance in, they get used to use their bodies, and when they get reins, they still use their bodies.

I'm not planning to never ride with a bit again, I use different bits and bitless all the time to keep us used to it


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

bloodhoundmom28 said:


> i ride in a padded halter. But if i couldnt aford one then i guess a tie down would work if i had one laying about. Perhaps she is just working into going bridleless?


I'd love to go bridle-less in the future, tho only on the grounds (where he'll run to the stable) or in the arena.. not on trails 
This is partly a transision to that, but it's also a mean for me to re-program myself to be less lazy in my riding


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> What she said. You don't make a horse soft by riding with something soft. Too soft like a padded halter just makes the horse hard. They don't respect it, they don't respond all the time to suttle movements, suttle commands. Rubber bits fall in this same catagory.
> I prefer to ride with more bit then I need but soft soft hands until it is time to not be soft.
> What if every time you speed a cop just said PLEASE SLOW DOWN, PLEASE. Would we respect the law?? NO.
> Get slapped with a few heavy fines and you slow right down.
> ...


Read my answer to the post you quoted.
And it's very strange how my horse gets more and more soft and yielding to my aids even tho I keep using softer and softer bits. Perhaps because my horse wants to listen to me rather than being forced?
Yes, I have been pretty harsh to him if he don't listen.. but I don't need harsh bits for that.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

bloodhoundmom28 said:


> zab i just read the whole post and the comments i agree with the bosals tend to rub a horse with sensitive skin. I have been working with mtiey horse with just a halter on him and he seems to respond to me better the with the bit (he has a verry sensitive mouth) I applaud you for the thought you have put into finding new means in which to ride your horse and train with.
> 
> Keninshorses
> 
> I own a speed event horse that when rideing ANY speed event he MUST have one this is because he uses it to brace and pull if you where to try to run him without it you would end up with a lap full of horse or at the least a broken nose. though when we trail ride i do not use it because it is not needed.


Thanks for reading the entire thing instead of jumping to conclusions


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

*I think this needs to be said again:
I'm in no way saying that I'll never use a bit again.
Or that you should do s I do on this matter (*I recommend yo not to actually * )
Or that my hands get softer because he feel less of my pulling - however I mean that if I can't use my hands to correct him, I need to use my seat and weight instead. So it is training for me.
I don't say that my horse can't be ridden with a bit, in fact he can be ridden with any bit that I've tried, including several bitless options, snaffles and severe curbs. 
In fact, the only problem I ever have with my horse is completely based on his education; example; He don't always get the right canter and he don't know how to do flying lead changes. We've never worked on that this far. He's a trail horse afterall, I'm in no hurry with those things (*I am working on getting the right lead in the canter tho - which has improved since I use my seat more than my hand and focus on sitting right*)
Again; I might very well take the snaffle next time I ride, or I'll use the tie-down instead. Or the curb. Anything works on him as long as I handle it right.
I'm not against proper use of severe bits, they usually have another purpose than being severe.
I'm aware of the risks, but I don't agree with everything you say. As you have seen in some replies. And I do know that he can be scared,* I've also seen how well he reacts even on this gentle headstall when he was really scared. We met a tractor the other day and he wanted to run, but stopped, as always, for my very light signals, even as he was actually shivering from fear of this hughe machine. I got off, as I usually do since that makes him calmer and if he panics I can't control him even with severe bits since panicked horses are completely blocked. He stood close to me and let the tractor pass.

*I tried something new and it worked wonders and proved to me that I'm going the right way according to my goals  *


----------



## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

Zab, if it works for you, then there is no reason to listen to anybody's imput. 

If you were already going to do it _anyway_ than why'd you post this thread? 

Glad your horse is so much better behaved then most, which is probably why we are all 'What? Why?'.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Sunny06 said:


> If you were already going to do it _anyway_ than why'd you post this thread?
> 
> .


It's all about sharing information. The title of the post was really misleading but she tried something different and was just sharing. I don't beleive she was actually asking for advice???


----------



## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I like trying new things as well Zab. I will switch things around just for the heck of it. I need to make this my mantra "If it ain't broke don't fix it" :lol:
I'm surprised my horses don't try to eat my credit cards so I can't buy them any new stuff :lol:
I do like writing review so maybe my tack barn try outs can help others. I've never seen the set up you posted about so I learned something. Its a good thing :wink:


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

RiosDad said:


> It's all about sharing information. The title of the post was really misleading but she tried something different and was just sharing. I don't beleive she was actually asking for advice???


Yup, just sharing info and telling about what I've done to those who bothered reading.

And the title wasn't misleading at all. It was my first ride with a tie-down, I just didn't use it as you people expected. Which was pretty clear if you just read the post.. if people are supposed to jump to conclusions after only reading the title, why even bother writing anything more?


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

Vidaloco said:


> I like trying new things as well Zab. I will switch things around just for the heck of it. I need to make this my mantra "If it ain't broke don't fix it" :lol:
> I'm surprised my horses don't try to eat my credit cards so I can't buy them any new stuff :lol:
> I do like writing review so maybe my tack barn try outs can help others. I've never seen the set up you posted about so I learned something. Its a good thing :wink:


Thanks, glad you liked the reading


----------



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

First off, I want to apologize Zab. When I posted the first time in this thread, I had somehow missed the part that you were getting along better and I thought you were still having problems. That is great that you and Crow are getting along so well. I remember when you sent him off to be trained ;p, it seems like so long ago. I am with you about horses don't get harder in softer headgear. It is the training that makes a horse soft, not the tack. This has actually given me an idea. I have had a tie-down exactly like yours (minus the decorative studs) hanging in the tack room for a couple of years with plans of maybe taking up team roping someday but that is an idea for a reason to use it between now and then. I may end up pulling a copycat on you. 

And I have to disagree with kevinshorses. If a horse is truely panicked and has no "emergency brake" in his training (not his mouth), he will run through even the most harsh of bits. You usually don't need to hurt a horse to get his attention. There are exceptions of course but for most, just more pressure is enough to say "Hey, wake up!"


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

*And I have to disagree with kevinshorses. If a horse is truely panicked and has no "emergency brake" in his training (not his mouth), he will run through even the most harsh of bits. You usually don't need to hurt a horse to get his attention. There are exceptions of course but for most, just more pressure is enough to say "Hey, wake up!"* 

I see no disagreement there.


----------



## Zab (Oct 4, 2008)

smrobs said:


> First off, I want to apologize Zab. When I posted the first time in this thread, I had somehow missed the part that you were getting along better and I thought you were still having problems. That is great that you and Crow are getting along so well. I remember when you sent him off to be trained ;p, it seems like so long ago. I am with you about horses don't get harder in softer headgear. It is the training that makes a horse soft, not the tack. This has actually given me an idea. I have had a tie-down exactly like yours (minus the decorative studs) hanging in the tack room for a couple of years with plans of maybe taking up team roping someday but that is an idea for a reason to use it between now and then. I may end up pulling a copycat on you.
> 
> And I have to disagree with kevinshorses. If a horse is truely panicked and has no "emergency brake" in his training (not his mouth), he will run through even the most harsh of bits. You usually don't need to hurt a horse to get his attention. There are exceptions of course but for most, just more pressure is enough to say "Hey, wake up!"


It's ok, we can all misundertand 
Just be careful, copycating me can be pretty dangerous at times


----------

