# Rain Rot -- how long do you treat?



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Welcome to the forum.

It doesn't hurt to continue using the MTG but you can stop now that all the scabs are gone and the healing has started.


----------



## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

Oh I HATE rain rot!!! 

Remember that it is a bacteria that causes this nastyness. So make sure that you wash all grooming items or it will just come back later.

I have had to deal with rain rot twice, both times I used betidine (spelled that WRONG but I haven't had any coffee yet). I liberally applied it to the whole area of infection plus two inches around. It made my mostly white gelding look like some sort of sickened monster... But it only took that one application - it took about three days for the color to leave his coat.

I don't know if this helped or not... but good luck!!!


----------



## hoopla (Jan 29, 2012)

Dermatophilus congolensis as its more properly called can be an absolute pig to get rid of. For that reason you're probably best advised to err on the side of caution.

The protocol to be adopted is rigourous and demanding and whilst some horses may get away with a short acute episode for a lot of horses it becomes a chronic condition and in the main because its so hard to treat properly and effectively. 

You have to ensure that the organism is eradicated and the only way you can be certain of that is to have the vet take a skin scrape swab and grow cultures. 

If you're fairly confident it's gone and want to save from doing that then you might want to switch to an astringent antimicrobial product for a little while longer to be safe.


----------



## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

You're going to be fighting it until your pastures come back in. There is a dietary reason that you've been dealing with it now. Green grass and freshly cut hay is loaded with Vit A. As hay ages, the Vit A content declines dramatically. When the pastures go dormant, the Vit A is nonexistant. The horse will store Vit A in the liver and draw on it throughout the winter. When the level is low, you start to see deficiencies such as RR and goopy eyes. Most of your RR will start around the first of the year for this reason.

The simply solution is to add some VitA to the diet. Go buy one tub of Mare Plus (or a similar supplement you want at least 1,000,000 IU/Kg). Hoffman's makes a nice product. Double up the portion for each horse until it's gone. Try for about 100,000 IU/day. Problem should be done. Even if you're feeding a fortified concentrate, the older mare isn't going to be as efficient with her food so she needs extra.

Next winter, get both of them on the Hoffman's or other product by the end of September. I would actually have both of them on it year round.


----------



## hoopla (Jan 29, 2012)

What makes you think that Dermatophilus congolensis is used by lack of vitamin A or that feeding it as a supplement kills or stops the organism?


----------



## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

It does stop the rain rot. I couldn't find any vitamin A supplement here so I used a multivitamin for mares and foals that was really high in vitamin a. It worked. Some get an oral dose sold for cattle but I'm not in a high cow area.

I was given a horse that had her whole top half covered in it. Big bald swatches and scabby lumps all over. Treated it with iodine and fed her the vitamins and it disappeared rather quickly. I couldn't bathe her completely because it was freezing out but I worked the iodine down onto her skin with my fingers. I couldn't possibly get it all with the iodine without freezing the horse. It started healing within a week of the vitamins and was growing hair within 2 weeks.


----------



## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

I have never heard of it being a vitamin deficiency before. I do know that the iodine will kill it - the same way the betadine that I used did as iodine is the main ingredient of betadine. Iodine builds up in the bloodstream, making the whole horse slightly inhospitiable to bacteria. It would be best to cover the whole area, but even having it in the tissues in the area whole help.

I woudl suggest more reasearch on it being a deficiency. I also hightly suggest washing EVERYTHING with an antibacterial - like iodine!


----------



## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

Actually I agree with the deficiency. Copper and Vit A both help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

hoopla said:


> What makes you think that Dermatophilus congolensis is used by lack of vitamin A or that feeding it as a supplement kills or stops the organism?


I'm not addressing whatever invading organism is causing the problem. I'm after the integrity of the skin. If the skin is healthy it will provide a sufficient barrier to the fungi, bacterial and other infecting agents. Quality protein, Vits B, A and D was well as balanced minerals are important for the skin and hair. Vit A is what tends to fluctuate seasonally in the horse's diet. If the liver can store about a 3 month supply of Vit A, sounds reasonable that in about January you will start to see the results of any difficiencies. When do you see the lion's share of RR problems? Certainly not in the summer months when most people's weather (in the US) is hot and humid with the required thunderstorm in the evening. Conditions that are perfect for fungi and bacteria to grow. We tend to see most between January and April.

We can treat the horse all winterlong with topicals but as soon as we quit, we're right back where we started. We're spending alot of time and money trying to fix this when it doesn't have to.


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

It is absolutely caused by a deficiency in Vitamin A. So are lice, goopy runny eyes and a myriad of other skin, eye and reproductive problems. 

Since I started supplementing Vitamin A some 40 - 45 years ago, I have not had one case of rain rot or lice(except in incoming horses).

I used to breed over 100 visiting broodmares every spring. I quit treating rain rot topically and treated it with Vitamin A and found it cleared up immediately. Mares also cycle earlier and breed better and I have not had a retained placenta on a single mare since I started supplementing Vitamin A.

You cannot give rain rot or lice to a horse with a healthy immune system and you cannot clear them up without enough Vitamin A and good immune system.

The fastest way to fix it is is to give a horse the injectable sold for cattle only give it ORALLY -- DO NOT INJECT IT. 5cc orally once a week until grass is green or a good Vitamin Supplement like Mare Plus made by Farnam will fix it.


----------



## yadlim (Feb 2, 2012)

Kewl. That's is really good to know! It is a reasonable explination on why some horses are more prone to it than others. 

Should we get another case of it, (please no please no please no) I will give a dose or two of Vit A a try. I know that we have been in places where other horses got rain rot and mine didn't. I just assumed it was that mine had a stronger immune system to it... and here is the why.

Thanks, I love to learn new things!


----------



## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Ditto Cherie and LHP. We have done experiments and so have others who also didnt believe. Vit A absolutely clears rain rot and lice etc right up with no topical treatment whatsoever. I never ever have skin issues now that I supplement and make sure my ration is high in Vit A as green grass is.


----------



## hoopla (Jan 29, 2012)

Cherie said:


> It is absolutely caused by a deficiency in Vitamin A. So are lice, goopy runny eyes and a myriad of other skin, eye and reproductive problems.
> [\QUOTE] cite the evidence?
> How are you checking the immune status and vitamin A levels for your horse?


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

They're telling me every time they have a symptom and the Vitamin A clears it up.

It should tell everyone else when it is almost entirely a problem that appears when grass disappears and hay gets old and miraculously disappears right after grass reappears in the spring.

Cattle do the same thing. They get fungus spots and lice and clear up as soon as the grass gets good. A good loose mineral with 150,000 to 200,000 units of Vitamin A per pound will also fix them (and make them breed back sooner, calve with fewer problems and make them drop their placenta hours earlier than when they are deficient.

By the way, we keep a loose mineral out year 'round that has that much Vitamin A in it.


----------



## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

The vitamin A made a believer out of me. I know I used nowhere near enough betadine to clear that much rain rot up. I couldn't. It was just too cold and she was covered in it.

It hasn't been back either and it's been a wet, icy winter. The horses have a run in and are out in all weather. No blankets. Most of the time they choose to back up under a pine tree.


----------



## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

Agree on the causes of rain rot, but for helping the healing process this has been a great solution Tea-Clenz Equine Anti-Microbial Concentrate

It helps with other problems too

.


----------



## diamondappy (Mar 2, 2012)

Thank you so much everyone for the answers -- I am definitely going to try to find some Vitamin A -- as the older mare also has goopy eyes -- and the rain rot just showed up in January -- during the summer her coat was beautiful and healthy makes alot of sense that she may be deficient. As for the MTG -- I can't wait to stop using it -- it's so greasy and gross but works very well -- any suggestions of what to switch to now that she is on the mend? 
Thanks Again


----------



## smokeslastspot (Jan 11, 2012)

I too was amazed at what a difference Vit A makes. I recently put my guys on a vitamin/mineral suppliment with large doses of vit A (gauranteed analysis says 300,000 IU/lb) and all my guys goopy eyes and skin problems went away almost overnight. It is a loose mineral that I just sprinkle of their food or can leave out loose in a bucket.


----------



## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

*Rain rot*

Over the years of being with horses I have learned many different treatments out there and ways to cut costs. I believe in thr healthier the horse the better off they are to battle any infections etc. I had horses come in with such bad cases of rain rot and where Vitamin A and such is a good preventive it doesnt fix the already existing problem. Winter is hard time for treating such things as rain rot. 
I have found that Listerine works extremely well against rain rot and can be used with a spray bottle or poured directly on the scabs. Listerine is inexspensive and very valuable in a barn. I use it for above matters as well as leg sweat body brace and bucket and grooming tools cleaner. Listerine also works great on horses who tend to rub tails. 
Good luck love ya horses and have fun


----------



## gothicangel69 (Aug 2, 2011)

I have to agree with the deficiency thought as well. I will admit I did not believe a word of it when my guy got it. He was on a crappy grain and poor quality hay. I tried everything under the moon for months to fix the problem and nothing worked. I finally stopped topical treatments, and switched him onto a good quality grain, flax seed, mineral block, and good hay. Within a week, the rain rot was almost completely gone and have not come back, even though the weather here has been quite wet lately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Vitamin A absolutely WILL fix existing rain rot. It is the only way I have treated incoming cases for about 40 years now. I have had it clear up horses that were so bad you could not touch their sore backs and rumps. They were nearly one big bloody scab. It started clearing up within days with absolutely no topicals. 

You just have to give them a couple of big doses of injectable Vitamin A made for cattle. GIVE IT ORALLY - not inject it. Start them on a good mineral or feed with plenty of Vitamin A in it and it will be gone in no time without Listerine, MTG or Betadine.


----------



## hoopla (Jan 29, 2012)

*Information about vitamin A and overdose of vitamin A*



Cherie said:


> Vitamin A absolutely WILL fix existing rain rot. It is the only way I have treated incoming cases for about 40 years now. I have had it clear up horses that were so bad you could not touch their sore backs and rumps. They were nearly one big bloody scab. It started clearing up within days with absolutely no topicals.
> 
> You just have to give them a couple of big doses of injectable Vitamin A made for cattle. GIVE IT ORALLY - not inject it. Start them on a good mineral or feed with plenty of Vitamin A in it and it will be gone in no time without Listerine, MTG or Betadine.


There you go again.

Earlier you said rain rot was caused by a deficiency in vitamin A and then asserted it could be treated by feeding supplemental vitamin A.

I was most concerned to see what I consider to be misinformation erring on the side of "dangerous and incorrect advice"

But I gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked you to 

cite the evidence for your statement re root cause and also that it's clinically effective in treatment.

Because you made mention about vitamin A deficiency and immuno compromise I aslo asked you how you were checking the immune status and vitamin A levels for your horse

You never answered any of the questions posed.

However I feel somewhat obligated to ensure that there's a strong awareness and specifically a correction and caution issued with regard to your "advice" to slam in injections of vitamin A.

Horse owners need to know that giving vitamin A when it's not required is risky and specifically with risks of toxidity.

Vitamins are divided into 2 categories: fat soluble and water soluble. Vitamin A (E, D & K) are all in the former category. Fat soluble vitamins with the exception of vitamin E are more likely to be stored in large amounts in the body and are more likely to be toxic when fed in excessive amounts. 

The liver can store a 3-6 month supply of vitamin A and it's quite unusual for a horse to be deficient in vitamin A because of this ability.

If green forage, yellow/orange grains and/or carrots are fed at all then the horse will be getting it's recommended daily requirement which for a working horse is 1400 IU/kg feed. 

Signs of deficiency are night blindness, corneal cloudiness, impaired growth, reproductive problems, poor conception rate, abortion, testicular degeneration, ataxia, convulsions. 

Toxicity or overdose of vitamin A shows up as bone fragility, *peeling or scabby skin*, ataxia and a low red blood cell count.

And you can't compare a cow's nutritional requirements for vitamin A with a horse's. It is indeed quite common to inject cattle with vitamin A in the winter when they're totally off all green forage and eating only straw or cattle cake. But not at all appropriate for horses. Indeed IMO most dangerous advice!


----------



## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

How do you account for all.the amounts of vit A a horse gets via green grass in the summer eating all he wants vs the winter only getting what is provided to him in a fortified feed since we know hay loosed its Vit A in a few months of harvest? Commons sense.tells US that horses are clearly getting WAY less in the winter via the lack of green grass and.clearly become deficinant since those on less then stellar diets come up with rain rot this time of year until the green grass comes up again. Common sense goes a long way here with simple deductioun. I have been supplementing for several years now and no longer have skin issues of any kind. That speaks loudly to the truth of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## hoopla (Jan 29, 2012)

And I don't supplement and in decades of keeping countless horses have never had one with rain rot.

I also know though that the plural of anecdote is not data!


----------



## smokeslastspot (Jan 11, 2012)

hoopla said:


> Signs of deficiency are night blindness, corneal cloudiness, impaired growth, reproductive problems, poor conception rate, abortion, testicular degeneration, ataxia, convulsions.
> 
> Toxicity or overdose of vitamin A shows up as bone fragility, *peeling or scabby skin*, ataxia and a low red blood cell count.



Don't forget to add depressed immune system to signs of deficiency. Horses are not efficient at processing Vit A so even though you are feeding x amount of it that does not mean they are actually absorbing all of it. 

As to the amount "recommended" in most textbooks, most of the vets I speak to as well as my old nutrition professor feel that this is not adequate and the amount needs to be changed. They have seen too many times the effect of higher A being good for the horse. 

When a horse is deficient in nutrients they will not have a strong immune system. When the immune system is compromised infection happens. I have discussed this in detail with numerous vets before and they all say that it is very hard to overdose on A. More than likely if a horse is given too much it will simply excrete it through the urinary tract.

Since I started a vit/min supplement with higher doses people won't stop asking me how I go that kind of shine on the horses in the middle of winter. I have no skin issues, no goopy eyes, nothing.



Questions: If all of us supplementing vit A are treating our horses "dangerously" and overdosing our animals then why are our horses shiny, happy, healthy with no skin issues? 

Shouldn't they be getting sick? 

And why do so many vets say to supplement it? 

Why does the addition of it to the diet clear up the skin issues if we are (according to you) basically ODing our animals on it?


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I started using added Vitamin A over 40 years ago. I started using it on the recommendation of a Nutritionist with a PhD. He worked for Moorman's Minerals -- a company that was decades ahead of other in the recognition of mineral deficiencies. 

I got acquainted with him through a client with horses that I trained for. This man had the biggest dairy in western Colorado at that time. I was complaining about lice and fungus in the spring and what a pain it was to treat when it was cold. He told me that he had no more lice or fungus problems after he got together with the Moorman Nutritionist.

So, I worked with him and took his recommendations of making sure horses get 100,000 Units/day in the winter and early spring when hay was old and there was not any green grass.

He worked with several big horse breeders from Texas to California. He worked with them mostly to help with reducing the number of foals born with crooked and week legs. They had found how much Calcium was needed if grass and grass hay were the main forages. They also found that when 100,000 units/day of Vitamin A was supplied they assimilated the Calcium better and miraculously, none of the horses got rain rot or lice and goopy runny eyes dried up as did scruffy dry skin.

They also found out that broodmares will breed easier, foal with fewer problems and will drop their placentas just minutes after foaling if they are receiving enough Vitamin A. They breed back much more quickly after foaling just like cattle do. 

It is possible to give over-doses of some sources of synthesized Vitamin A but only by giving massive doses. You cannot get too much of the precursor, Beta Carotene. Animals that are grazing lush pasture get far more Beta Carotene than they need. The portion of it that is needed is stored in the liver and the balance is stored in body fat. The fat on grass fat cattle often has a yellow color instead of being white because of the beta carotene. This is one of the reason that grass-fattened beef has not gained alot of popularity. [We have butchered grass fattened steer that had yellow fat.] The only way I have heard of any livestock receiving toxic levels has been to give them massive doses in a study program at a university. It has a very wide range of safety unless massive amount are given. Vitamin E, another fat soluble Vitamin, can reach toxic levels much more quickly.

I have worked with Nutritionists and feed mills for over 40 years now. I have been a paid consultant for many feed companies. My interest in this field started back then with the first Moorman Nutritionist.

I have supplemented it now for over 40 years. During that time I have told literally hundreds of people how to get rid of it with no topical treatment what so ever. Husband and I owned a feed company and a feed store for many years. It is hard telling how many people I sold Minerals, feeds, supplements and injectable Vitamin A to and without exception, they all saw the same results I have. In all of those years I have not seen a single horse with a toxicity problem. Like I said, the only toxicity problems I have even seen documented were induced in University settings. It would be completely impossible to use the injectable once a week and to feed a supplement and have a horse reach anywhere near toxic levels.

Some horses are very susceptible to Vitamin A deficiencies while others are not. Horses that are kept out and have a little age on them seem to be most susceptible. The better a horse's diet is, the less likely it is to get symptoms of Vitamin A deficiency. But, horses that do not get enough in their diet, will be the same ones every year that fight rain rot, lice and eye problems. Their skin and hair will look rough, they will get bald patches and horrible scabs on the top of them. The best news is that it is not contagious to horses getting healthy levels of Vitamin A.

Like I have said many times, I never treat it (other than with Vitamin A), never bathe the horses, never disinfect the brushes or other equipment and never have had it spread. It always clears up very shortly after initiating the Vitamin A treatment. Very quickly the horses start losing the scabs and get healthy hair coming in under them. A curry comb will curry off the loose scabs and they can be ridden in couple weeks of starting the Vitamin A.


----------



## WelshSnow (Mar 8, 2012)

Sorry - British person here! Is this the same as mud fever?


----------



## hoopla (Jan 29, 2012)

Yes it is


----------



## Trinity3205 (Dec 21, 2010)

Thanks cherie.....again  

Anecdotal evidence can still be very relevant when gathered from many sources, proved over time and through experiance and crunched with the common sense god gave ya. Jmo. I think cherie is spot on and I trust her years of experiance considering the source far more than many others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

When I started using it, it was not because of anecdotal evidence. It was because I looked at all of the research and trials done by the MoorMan Company. Their Vitamin and Mineral line was sold by the MoorMan Company starting in 1925. 

They had graduate Nutritionists and representatives driving all around the Country talking to stockmen and dairymen. They set up trials in many parts of the country and published results. They were decades ahead of their time. 

As soon as I started using their minerals with the high levels of Vitamin A, I found that it did everything they said it would do. 

Their Nutritionist suggested using Injectable Vitamin A to get quicker results. At that time, there was an injectable A labeled for horses called 'Injecom'. It was pulled off of the market some years back. I know some Vets inject the Vitamin A labeled for cattle, but I have seen some pretty big swellings and reactions from it. So I found no reason it would not absorb through the mucus membranes of the mouth just like other Vitamins (like the B-Complex Vitamins) absorb. I was assured by researchers that it would --- and it does -- and it helps get rid of rain rot weeks earlier than waiting on supplements does.


----------



## hoopla (Jan 29, 2012)

You've still not cited any evidence that vitamin A deficiency causes rain rot.

Indeed you've not actually answered any of the questions posed.

It seems to me that you're advising to inject cattle supplement purely because of a 'belief and with no clinical evidence that its causative, contributory or curative and without even knowing there's an actual deficiency and all despite the fact that excess can cause toxidity.

Horse owners should know that the nutritional requirements for horses and cattle are indeed different and as such clinical research undertaken on cows is not relevant to horses. Despite your 'beliefs' there are serious risks to your advice in this context.


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

hoopla said:


> Despite your 'beliefs' there are serious risks to your advice in this context.


So far you have given a good deal of negativity to the replies by Cherie. They may or may not be accurate. What are your qualifications and where are the studies that point to your strong opinion?


----------



## SueNH (Nov 7, 2011)

She isn't advising inject the supplement.
You put it on their grain ration or hay pellets or beetpulp, whatever they are eating that isn't baled. 

A supplement geared towards mares and foals with it's high vitamin A content cleared mine up. I couldn't find the the cattle supplement here and didn't want to do a catalog order for just one item.


----------



## hoopla (Jan 29, 2012)

iridehorses said:


> So far you have given a good deal of negativity to the replies by Cherie. They may or may not be accurate. What are your qualifications and where are the studies that point to your strong opinion?


BSc Honours Degree in Equine Science, Equine Anatomy and Equine Physiology.

BTec National in Animal Food Science

In terms of reference material it's in abudance but to get you started:
Nutrient Requirement of Horses: 
Equine clinical nutrition: feeding and care
Equine clinical nutrition: feeding and care - Lon D. Lewis - Google Books

Vitamin A in Horses

http://www.ker.com/library/advances/238.pdf

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...3P_qaR&sig=AHIEtbS2WHM8Dgym5Kblh4jOt7sm-M7uUQ

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...-RR-4j&sig=AHIEtbSZ2VY_utmaVE6XJy2wCfDTmInf_Q

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...w2jTyH&sig=AHIEtbSed_blRh48q1CrWTrq2G5mkQi7jw


Horse Nutrition, Bulletin 762-00, Vitamins

Querying advice and asking for facts and evidence or holding different fact-based opinion is not "negativity".


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

hoopla said:


> Querying advice and asking for facts and evidence or holding different fact-based opinion is not "negativity".


It is when there is no basis for the opinion but is only expressed as such. 

Thank you for the links. I'll spend some time and look them over. In the meanwhile, what seems to have worked by first hand experience still seems like the way to go ... for me, in any case.


----------



## diamondappy (Mar 2, 2012)

I just wanted to come back to this thread and thank Cherie and Left Hand Percherons -- I am a huge believer in Vitamin A now -- my horses will not go without it again! Update -- thought we had the rain rot under control with the MTG - wrong - we had another cold rainy spell and things got worse for the girls -- hair was now falling out in huge patches I feared the older mare was going to freeze to death because she had such little hair left on the top of her back. Tried everything under the sun, MTG, Kopper Kare, Listerine, Head and Shoulders washes and betadine washes on days when it was warm enough. Nothing was helping -- so we stopped all topical treatments/went and got the cattle Vitamin AD and put it on their Equalizer pellets (5cc for my appaloosa and 3.5 for the pony mare) 2 weeks and 2 doses later and I cannot believe it -- hair is growing back in every single spot! I came on here looking for advice on what worked based on experience and I thank those who helped out and gave their advice even though it sometimes seemed like they were being attacked by others for doing so. My horses and I thank you for standing your ground and letting others know what truly worked for you


----------



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I am so happy that you got the Vitamin A and that it worked for you. [I'll bet your horse is,too.]

In 45 years I have not had it fail and have never had one adverse problem from it --- only from the lack of it.

Next fall, just give him a supplement when you start feeding hay or give him the oral cattle injectable every couple of weeks and you will not have to see rain rot again.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

Cherie


----------



## horsecrazy84 (Mar 20, 2011)

Hmm we have green grass here and Chanti still has a slight case of Rain rot. I just spray her with a mixture of Listerine and water, 50/50 or a little more Listerine if it's a severe problem and it is gone in a matter of a few days. We ran out of grass back in November but with the odd wet winter we've had she's gotten it. She hasn't had it long and I only see a few scabs on her, but it is very important to get all the scabs off. I use a rubber curry or a metal curry then I spray the brushes down after using them on her.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

horsecrazy84 said:


> I just spray her with a mixture of Listerine and water, 50/50 or a little more Listerine if it's a severe problem and it is gone in a matter of a few days.


Smart and inexpensive!


----------

