# Running Martingales VS Standing Martingales



## HorseJumpingIsMyLife (Apr 5, 2009)

My Horse really needs a martingale according to my riding instructer but she won't tell me WHICH one!??!?! Crazy, i know. -BUT she did say it was either a running martingale or a standing martingale. Apparently she wants me to figure out which one i need. My Horse throws his head alot and resists the bit, he puts his head down, trying to pull the reins out of my hands. I Checked his bridle and bit and the saddle but nothing is pinching him or putting pressure on him!? i also checked his hooves and there wasn't anything there. He has no sores on his face or his withers/back so im thinking its just cause he's a fat lazy boy  I read that running martingales are for head throwing and stuff like that but im not sure which one to get. they both have variable things my horse does.... any advice??? Thanks


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Get a trainer. You need to address the issue that your horse has with you. You probably aren't giving him the release he needs. Find an instructor that will teach you to RIDE and not just sit on your horses back and torment him. Your horse isn't getting a good signal from you and you need to clear that up or it will just get worse. If you go to a martingale (either one) then another problem will pop up and your instructor will want you to change bits or use a caveson or some other stop gap measure. If you want to be on the track to become a horseman now is the time to start.


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## HorseJumpingIsMyLife (Apr 5, 2009)

Uhh, excuse me but I KNOW how to ride thank you very much. My Horse was abused and he is very skiddish some times and we are working out all his kinks. I Did NOT ask for you critique i asked WHICH martingale works for this. I can w/t/c/g and jump up to 3.5 feet with out using my hands. So dont you DARE say i can't ride. You've NEVER seen me ride, My horse loves me very much he isnt being TORMENTED, Got it?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I agree, you should find an answer to the symptoms your horse is showing. I have used running martingales (standing are illegal in eventing), BUT I rarely need them. Resistance should be addressed with flat work and more careful jumping, IMO.

Hopefully, your trainer has the ability to teach you through this problem.

If you MUST have a martingale, make sure it is adjusted properly and not so tight it effectively becomes a tie-down. I prefer running as they don't encourage a horse to lean into them (aggravating the original problem).


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## HorseJumpingIsMyLife (Apr 5, 2009)

Thank you!!! 
My Horse responds well to martingales, I've been trying some out. I just needed to know someone elses ADVICE not critical opinions  I Tried loosening the bit too and that seemed to help but it also kept me from being able to control his head.... so im working with him to try and solve this problem.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Both types of martingales aim to address resistance by keeping the horse's head and neck in a position where the bit and your aids are more effective. 

The standing martingale really just keeps the horse from raising his head above certain height to avoid the bit. However, smart and lazy horses learn to lean or balance themselves on the martingale. I use them rarely and for a short term, rather than long term fix. 

Running martingales are more versatile. When adjusted correctly, they put downward pressure on the bars of the horses's mouth when he raises his head above a certain level and release that pressure when the horse drops his head. So used in moderation they can be an effective tool. 

One big caveat - I almost *never* see them adjusted correctly. Too loose, they're ineffectual, and too tight, they put constant pressure on the bars of the horses mouth, which is contrary to good training and really abusive. If you use one, make sure someone who knows what they're doing adjusts it, and evaluate the adjustment each time you ride with it.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

You need a new instructor. I am not anti martingale but I have a hard time with an instructor that says 'you need a new piece of equipment but you pick which one'. Is that not what you play your instructor/trainer to help you with? 

I will not guess if your horse has a medical reason or simply a bad learned behavior but I would think a _good_ instructor/trainer would be able to figure this out with you and not send you on a wild goose chase asking people on the internet what type of martingale to buy.


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

If you like showjumping then use a running martingale - 

To muddy the issue a bit - a Market Harborough ( or German martingale ) is a really usefull training aid - when fitted and used properly. - I know many people dislike them but I find them to be one of the best, when fitted properly they enable a horse to learn as they only work when the horse is being evasive.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

HorseJumpingIsMyLife said:


> Uhh, excuse me but I KNOW how to ride thank you very much. My Horse was abused and he is very skiddish some times and we are working out all his kinks. I Did NOT ask for you critique i asked WHICH martingale works for this. I can w/t/c/g and jump up to 3.5 feet with out using my hands. So dont you DARE say i can't ride. You've NEVER seen me ride, My horse loves me very much he isnt being TORMENTED, Got it?


Ah - yes you did. Since you are apparently paying someone to supposedly teach you - yet they are not doing a complete job - you felt the need to ask your question to complete strangers who are unaware of the whole situation.

I agree that gadgets can be shortcuts. If I put a brace on your back to ensure you sat correctly in your saddle - is that teaching - or torment? Of course you can say - Gee this hurts. Your horse cannot.

As one of the other posters said - you probably need a new instructor.


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## equineeventer3390 (Mar 27, 2009)

I would definately go with a running martingale. I personally hate standing martingales and they're actually illegal in eventing. Theyre too restricting and i've seen horses flip over because of them. Running martingales are much more forgiving and can be as lose or tight as you want them depending on your rein length.


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

I think her instructor wanted her to do a little research. Nothing wrong with that. I would have her help you pick on out. Tell her what you learned and that you are a little confused. Yes you pay the instructor to help you, but letting the instructor do everything for the rider can also be harmful. I'd rather have someone help me get there, not tell me every single step I need to take along the way.


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## HeartMyOTTB (Aug 13, 2009)

I use a Standing with my horse. I use it, as someone said above, to keep his head below a certain level. Also, I like that in the event of a spook or a slip, I know Im not going to get my faced whacked and end up with a bloody nose... I have seen it happen. To professionals even. 

I ride a friends horse from time to time, and she uses a Running. I LOVE the head set it puts him in, but I feel that it "puts" him there, not because I asked for it. And sometimes he'll break at the 3rd and not at the poll. 

So I would start with the Standing. I think you will see results from that. As your tack shop what their return policy is, clean it up, and get a running if your trainer suggests. My trainer can be vague sometimes, maybe since she assumed you would be using them for the same purpose, she gave the preference to you. I am not always that assertive to ask my trainer what she means, looks like we have that in common. 



mls said:


> Ah - yes you did. Since you are apparently paying someone to supposedly teach you - yet they are not doing a complete job - you felt the need to ask your question to complete strangers who are unaware of the whole situation.
> 
> I agree that gadgets can be shortcuts. If I put a brace on your back to ensure you sat correctly in your saddle - is that teaching - or torment? Of course you can say - Gee this hurts. Your horse cannot.
> 
> As one of the other posters said - you probably need a new instructor.


As for the above comment, I dont think you asked for a critique at all. Isn't that the point of horseforum? To seek advice from fellow riders and horse people? I wouldn't go as far as to say we are total strangers in the aspect that someone out there may have encountered a similar problem. Yeah, the training section and the critique section are the most popular in the way or responses, sometimes I feel it hard to get an answer out of a straight question. But thats why we are here, to learn and read. And I hope that you, JumpinigIsMyLife, got _something _out of your post.

Good Luck!!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

equineeventer3390 said:


> Running martingales are much more forgiving and can be as lose or tight as you want them depending on your rein length.


Um, standing martingales are adjustable also.

(Not saying the OP needs one, just stating a fact.)




HeartMyOTTB said:


> As for the above comment, I dont think you asked for a critique at all. Isn't that the point of horseforum? To seek advice from fellow riders and horse people? I wouldn't go as far as to say we are total strangers in the aspect that someone out there may have encountered a similar problem. Yeah, the training section and the critique section are the most popular in the way or responses, sometimes I feel it hard to get an answer out of a straight question. But thats why we are here, to learn and read. And I hope that you, JumpinigIsMyLife, got _something _out of your post.


But the question asked can not really be answered with out LOTS more knowledge of the OP.

It is like someone posting what brand of saddle should they get when they test rode in two. No one here saw them ride in them so no one here and tell them which they rode best in, etc.



Sillybunny I think if the trainer wanted the OP to learn something then the trainer should have asked the OP some questions and had a conversation with them about picking the right martingale and why one might be better fit for what they need to do. Not send the OP off on a wild goose chase.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Heartmy,

If your friends running martingale causes her horse to "break behind the poll" it is adjusted VERY incorrectly. The rings should almost touch the glottis area of the throat when the horses head is in the normal position. It should only engage when the horses head is way up. It is not meant to "hold" a horse in the normal position.


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## HeartMyOTTB (Aug 13, 2009)

Thanks Allison, it seemed short to me in comparison to where my standing leaves my horse. But I figured she had it like that for a reason. Now, could him breaking behind the poll be him behind the bit? Or evading the bit, whatever, and not the martingale?


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Sure it can. If his head is in the "normal" position, the running martingale (or standing, for that matter) should be very slack. 

Going behind the vertical is a whole other matter.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Gadgets gadgets gadgets. They're so popular now. I find it a bit sad that alot of coaches are now running off to find the nearest gadget to strap a head down and make a kid think their horse is 'on the bit'.
Sorry but I am 100% with kevinshorses on this. No you did not specifically ask for a 'critique' but this is in now way shape or form a critique as we have not seen you on the horse. 
Generally, if I horse is throwing it's head up and down and hauling on the reins, unless he is sore, there's going to be an issue with the rider. Horses continuously throw new obstacles at their riders to try and escape pressure here there and everywhere, but you need to be a skilled enough rider to work a horse through these issues, without relying permanently on a 'gadget' to get you there. Sure everyone has to learn, but I don't think using gadgets for every issue is going to teach anyone much at all, what happened to putting in hard work and learning how to drive the hind end up to meet the hands to create a beautifull, soft relaxed horse? If your trainer is so set on you getting a martingale to fix the problem, I'd quit turning a blind eye and find someone who actually knows how to correct an issue such as this one, without having to use straps to hold the horses head down. 
You can pull a horses head down, and that issue may be resolved, but the next one will surface quickly. If you rely on gadgets for every problem that arises, you may as well put your horse in a straight jacket, strap wheels to his hooves and get someone to tow him along while you enjoy riding a horse with a 'nice headset'.
Your comment that you love how a martingale gives your friend's horse a nice headset just proves that you are not aware of the concept of riding 'back to front', you are under the impression that a pretty, tucked in head is 'on the bit' or 'collected'. So SO not the case. 

You don't need to take anyone's advice here. And I know you're probably going to go off like you did with Kevinshorses, but i think what needs to happen is that people on this forum need to stop thinking that they know everything there is to know and that if their horse isn't working exactly how they want it to, then OBVIOUSLY the horse is just being naughty. Get someone more experienced to ride your horse for a while and see what happens? If they know how to ride to a reasonable level of dressage/flatwork, they'll be able to combat the head movement by driving the hind legs under the horse, and you won't see the reefing occur again with that rider. We have to stop blaming the horse, take a step back and see that maybe our own riding is where the problem lies? So before you come back at me with teeth and claws out, just have a think... is your riding so perfect in every way that you couldn't possibly be inducing this behaviour?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Sorry forgot to mention, YES i do also use gadgets on certain horses. I like to lunge in side reins, I've had good results from doing so as long as the horse isn't the type to duck behind the bit and is working confidently forward into a contact under saddle. I have also used draw reins on a couple of horses, only once or twice then never had to use them again. But again, for a VERY short period of time and on horses that do not have the tendancy to drop back off the bit


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

By using a martingale you are avoiding the problem. You are just muting what is going on by tying the horses head to it's chest. So my advice is to find a new qualified trainer who can teach you how to properly fix a problem.


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## My Beau (Jan 2, 2009)

StormyBlues said:


> By using a martingale you are avoiding the problem. You are just muting what is going on by tying the horses head to it's chest.


What type of martingale have you been looking at? I've seen what you mentioned happen with draw reins, but martingales are loose until the horses head goes WAY up, then it comes into effect.

Unless a moron put it on and adjusted it, that is.

I also believe the trainer just wanted the OP to learn. Have her do some research as to what the different types of matingales do instead of being told what to buy, buying it and using it right away without knowing the reasoning behind it.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

I only belive that a gadget should be used as a procaution, not to fix a problem as the OP is doing


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## Sunny06 (Jun 22, 2009)

So let's say a horse defys the bit and tanks to a stop. What do you do (if you are sure the horse isn't in pain)?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Sunny06 said:


> So let's say a horse defys the bit and tanks to a stop. What do you do (if you are sure the horse isn't in pain)?


Figure out why the horse isn't following your feel and how you can get back with him. He's not defying the bit just to do it he is confused and doesn't know what you want or he isn't prepared to do it when you ask him.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> Figure out why the horse isn't following your feel and how you can get back with him. He's not defying the bit just to do it he is confused and doesn't know what you want or he isn't prepared to do it when you ask him.


Well said thank you.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> I can w/t/c/g and jump up to 3.5 feet with out using my hands. So dont you DARE say i can't ride. You've NEVER seen me ride, My horse loves me very much he isnt being TORMENTED, Got it?


So? I've seen many riders jump fences without understanding how to ride correctly. And? What does that proove? Just because someone can jump 3.5 feet, means diddly squat to me. 

Lets see how effective you are between the fences, for that's far more important that going over the fence. Lets see what you can do Dressage wise, maybe that'll be more impressive. 

And how do you know your horse loves you very much? Do you speak nicker? 



> Ah - yes you did. Since you are apparently paying someone to supposedly teach you - yet they are not doing a complete job - you felt the need to ask your question to complete strangers who are unaware of the whole situation.
> 
> I agree that gadgets can be shortcuts. If I put a brace on your back to ensure you sat correctly in your saddle - is that teaching - or torment? Of course you can say - Gee this hurts. Your horse cannot.
> 
> As one of the other posters said - you probably need a new instructor.


Great post MLS

~~~

Let me just start out by saying, I am now always against gadgets, but I am definately against people who want to use gadgets without understanding HOW most importantly, and WHY. I also cannot stand a rider who wants to turn to one, to use as a "training tool" when in reality - all a gadget is, is a mute to the real issue which is "RIDE CORRECTLY" 

Gadgets are MAN MADE for MAN - Why? To make "man's" job, easier. They mute issues, and hide underlying problems - and all the while, the rider is either under the belief that the "gadget" has fixed the issue, or knows but wants the quick fix - he gadget is causing more issues in the long run.



> horses learn to lean or balance themselves on the martingale.


Yes, I completely agree. I have also seen horses develop incorrect muscles by using the Standing for long periods of time. Most riders do not know to ride efficiantly to get the horse to engage their back ends, raise their backs and get them off of their forehands - so as a result, incorrect muscles are developed and, the moment the rider attempts to go without the gadget, POOF the horse resorts back to how it was before the gadget was thrown on in the first place.


> Theyre too restricting and i've seen horses flip over because of them.


Yes, I completely agree. I dispise Standing Martingales and think they are garbage. MANY of those who use them, use them without even knowing why or how - but they see others using them and then so must they.

Because of this, I've seen accidents occur because the gadget was put on incorrectly, or used incorrectly. 

And, horses should not have them on when jumping 3'0" or bigger. 


> I LOVE the head set it puts him in, but I feel that it "puts" him there, not because I asked for it. And sometimes he'll break at the 3rd and not at the poll.


Then the gadget is being used incorrectly, and uneducatedly.



> Heartmy,
> 
> If your friends running martingale causes her horse to "break behind the poll" it is adjusted VERY incorrectly. The rings should almost touch the glottis area of the throat when the horses head is in the normal position. It should only engage when the horses head is way up. It is not meant to "hold" a horse in the normal position.


Exactly.



> Gadgets gadgets gadgets. They're so popular now. I find it a bit sad that alot of coaches are now running off to find the nearest gadget to strap a head down and make a kid think their horse is 'on the bit'.
> Sorry but I am 100% with kevinshorses on this. No you did not specifically ask for a 'critique' but this is in now way shape or form a critique as we have not seen you on the horse.
> Generally, if I horse is throwing it's head up and down and hauling on the reins, unless he is sore, there's going to be an issue with the rider. Horses continuously throw new obstacles at their riders to try and escape pressure here there and everywhere, but you need to be a skilled enough rider to work a horse through these issues, without relying permanently on a 'gadget' to get you there. Sure everyone has to learn, but I don't think using gadgets for every issue is going to teach anyone much at all, what happened to putting in hard work and learning how to drive the hind end up to meet the hands to create a beautifull, soft relaxed horse? If your trainer is so set on you getting a martingale to fix the problem, I'd quit turning a blind eye and find someone who actually knows how to correct an issue such as this one, without having to use straps to hold the horses head down.
> You can pull a horses head down, and that issue may be resolved, but the next one will surface quickly. If you rely on gadgets for every problem that arises, you may as well put your horse in a straight jacket, strap wheels to his hooves and get someone to tow him along while you enjoy riding a horse with a 'nice headset'.
> ...


*STANDS UP AND APPLAUDS*

WOOOT!! Great post, well said! BRAVO!


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

* Flame suit officially on, so take your shots * 

I use a running martingale occasionally with my mare. She isn't "bad", she isn't "hot", she just needs a reminder sometimes not to throw her head up in the air. I will take it out maybe once every three or four months (or on an as-needed basis, but just as a rule that's about how much it's used). She is an extremely hard ride, no matter what anyone says. She is naturally a higher- carrying horse and when she jumps, she gets very enthusiastic. As a precaution to her health and mine, I will put the RM on for cross country and stadium competition and sometimes when we are doing higher jumps in a lesson.

So, OP, if you use one, I would use a running. I think it gives a bit more freedom because it's not directly attached to their head.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Anybody want to guess the last time the OP posted in this thread? 

I am sure this thread will continue on for pages as experienced horsepeople debate training philosophies, etc., and that will be an interesting read, but I think we alienated the OP a few pages back. 

If your intent in posting in this thread was to educate, inform or help, consider whether or not your tone or style of posting was likely to achieve that goal. Would you listen to an expert on a subject you were a novice in if they phrased their advice in this way?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I do think that certain gadgets have their place.... but not as permanent solutions. As I've said many a time, I will use draw reins once or twice on specific horses, then never use them again. I find if used correctly, they can help to give a confused horse the confidence to understand what you're asking. Again, as long as they are used only a handfull of times by someone who knows how and why to use them, and followed up by correct riding. 
It's the people who have absolutely no idea of how to develop a horse in a correct fashion that use gadgets as shortcuts to 'hide' their own inability to train who bother me. If I didn't understand the concept of riding a horses hind legs to meet the bridle, that the ultimate goal is a soft, swinging back and a hrose that accepts and reaches for the contact. As well as knowing how to achieve this, and having done so with numerous different horses, I would definately not be even contemplating using a gadget to help me. 
My view on it is that if you KNOW how to train correctly and KNOW and UNDERSTAND the ultimate goal, then a gadget can benifit you to assisting the horse to understand it's job more clearly. Using a gadget when you are not even sure how to get a steady head carriage under your own steam is most definately OUT in my books.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Once again, great post Kayty.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree maura,

I probably should have avoided posting at all. But you are right. The way some of the posts were phrased probably sounded more like an attack than a helpful suggestion.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Ditto to all of the above, you say the words I want to, but can't phrase lol!!!


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## My Beau (Jan 2, 2009)

So, what do you guys think of all the horses running around the CCI***/**** courses with running martingales?

According to you guys, those riders are not riding correctly and just masking problems their horses have. And they should quit riding because they're a disgrace to the sport (kidding here:lol. But really, I'm pretty sure those riders KNOW what they're doing.


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## AlmagroN (Jul 19, 2009)

dont mind me.... i started posting then realized i was thinking about something else


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

My Beau said:


> So, what do you guys think of all the horses running around the CCI***/**** courses with running martingales?
> 
> According to you guys, those riders are not riding correctly and just masking problems their horses have. And they should quit riding because they're a disgrace to the sport (kidding here:lol. But really, I'm pretty sure those riders KNOW what they're doing.


I'm not sure you understood some of the posts. I use running martingales on some horses, especially on XC, but are precautionary equipment. They are adjusted correctly and are not engaged unless the horse's head is way out of the correct position.

This mare always wore one on XC. 










This stallion wore a sliding running martingale (standard ones make sharp turns difficult). This is my absolute favorite running martingale, but almost impossible to find. BTW, excuse my horrible XC equitation. This was only training level and my stirrups were longer than I usually ride in.










As you can see, this will not be easy to engage. It is adjusted so that only extreme positioning will engage the martingale (as seen by the slack in the slide at the breastplate.


This little 15.1 package of pure athlete always wore one. He could be a real **** on XC, if allowed. My leg is hanging low on the offside due to my riding with a fractured leg. Not the most fun I had on an XC course.










What I DID say, is I never use it to position a horse's head!!


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## My Beau (Jan 2, 2009)

No worries, Allison, I wasn't referring to your posts. Mainly to the posters who are totally anti-martingale. I always use one on my horses on XC, precautionary, like you.

Martingales have a place, they are much less of a "gadget" then, say, draw reins, which I've also used. Like anything, they need to be in educated hands.


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## strawboss (Apr 29, 2009)

i have found this thread to be most interesting. i also think that the OP went away and isn't reading it any more, but others are still learning from it. i've seen so many "knowledgeable" riders that were doing what they were doing because someone told them to or because they saw someone else doing it and really had no idea what or why they were doing what they were doing. a good horse trainer knows that nothing takes the place of proper training. sometimes the training needs to be done on the rider.
just my opinion.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

IGO am anti martingale Jen an uneducated rider is using them, as the OP is. She is being told to use it as a fix to her horses problem, not as a precaution on a dangerous course.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

StormyBlues said:


> IGO am anti martingale Jen an uneducated rider is using them, as the OP is. She is being told to use it as a fix to her horses problem, not as a precaution on a dangerous course.


Help me...what does IGO mean?


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## HeartMyOTTB (Aug 13, 2009)

maura said:


> Anybody want to guess the last time the OP posted in this thread?
> 
> I am sure this thread will continue on for pages as experienced horsepeople debate training philosophies, etc., and that will be an interesting read, but I think we alienated the OP a few pages back.
> 
> If your intent in posting in this thread was to educate, inform or help, consider whether or not your tone or style of posting was likely to achieve that goal. Would you listen to an expert on a subject you were a novice in if they phrased their advice in this way?


I try to stay objective, but I am learning that it is accpetable to "standing ovation" other people's post... So, THANK YOU! You certainly said what I was trying to say in my first response. I gave the OP my thoughts, and I hope they were of help. But everything got slowly picked apart. I try to take people's tone and turn it into a question to better my own understanding. That doesn't make me an "uneducated" rider. I just want to expand my personal knowledge, but when it comes down to it, everyone does things differently. I learn that everytime I have to (unfortunately) switch trainers. Its just a bummer to have to re-learn the little quirks.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Help me...what does IGO mean?


I don't know. I was typing on my iPhone and it auto corrected I and when to igo and Jen


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I don't feel like saying she's an uneducated rider because I have never seen her ride, I have never seen her horse, and I have never even seen a pic of her riding. I don't think it's fair to say that when you don't know her.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

True, but I feel that someone who straps a martingale on the horses head to fix a problem is someone who is uneducated.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I understand where you are coming from. However, it seems that the OP is just going off what her trainer- who is supposed to be a more experienced horseperson- is telling her. Can't blame her for something she doesn't know a thing about. You'd be inclined to believe your trainer would look out for the best interest of you and your horse. JMO

I use a martingale. I think they are great tools when used in the right hands. They sure have helped me and my horse.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

> Let me just start out by saying, I am now always against gadgets, but I am definately against people who want to use gadgets without understanding HOW most importantly, and WHY.


I just need to correct my spelling - I meant to say NOT, instead of NOW.


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## My Beau (Jan 2, 2009)

MIEventer said:


> I just need to correct my spelling - I meant to say NOT, instead of NOW.


That makes a difference! :lol:


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

haha ok. That makes much more sense MIEventer


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

eventerdrew said:


> I think they are great tools when used in the right hands.


So going by that how would you be able to tell who's using a martingale correctly? Everybody says almost the same thing as that but no one really explains how to tell. How do you tell if your experienced enough to use one? And how would you use it correctly? People explain that a little too, but not the extent that I find useful.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

If you know what it's used for basically. You aren't using to hold your horse's head down and put it in the right position, you are using it as a precautionary measure for your safety and the safety of your horse. 

I personally use it so that my horse doesn't fling her head up and give me a bloody nose. Doesn't inhibit her jumping at all, just make sure she doesn't hurt me or herself.

A basic understanding of what the tool is, what it is used for, and how NOT to use it are the only things you need to use it correctly.


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

Ok, thank you.

So it should not be used for a solution for achieving a headset.
It should be used to prevent injuries to the rider by keeping the horses head at a reasonable level?


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

no problem.

yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. Not to achieve headset. However, it does affect the headset; just to help the rider basically. That's why a lot of people have problems with it. Putting something on a horse to compensate for the rider.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

I do not have issues with Running Martingales when used correctly - to prevent your face from getting smacked. 

I have issues with the Standing. I dislike it greatly, I dislike how so many people use the standing for incorrect reasons and I greatly dislike how restrictive it is. But what peeves me the most about the Standing, is how so many use it without even knowing why or how it works - and how so many who do use it, have no clue how to ride effectively anyways, so the horse goes around developing incorrect muscles.

I see people using this gadget on the flat for pete's sake - where flat work is supposed to be about riding correctly to unite horse/rider/development.

Just like how the Tie Down has become a huge fad in the Western World - the Standing has become a huge fad in the Hunter world. Drives me bonkers. It has become a common piece of equipment, like the bit, like the saddle - where it has become common place on a tacked up horse. 

If I had to choose between the two - I would definately go with the Running. But, I would not use either of the two for Flat Work.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

I feel that a horse and rider should never use a martingale on the flat. Just jumping as a precaution, they should be able to do everything well without it though.

I have a friend who went to a hunter clinc and was told she NEEDED to ride with a standing, and it was just tying her horses head to it's chest.(it was layer re ajusted) but the horse didn't need it, he was just to hot for this inexperianced rider.


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

I do use a martingale I have two bridles and it is only on my show bridle because I only do jumper shows and I never use a martingale on the flat. I use a running martingale and I once rode a horse who used a standing martingale and I didn't want to get into an argument with the owner but halfway through my ride I loosened it out so much that it wasn't having any effect on the horse anyway


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

First things first - why exactly do you want to use a martingale

If you have a new horse or are re-training a horse and the horse is a bit headstrong and doesn't listen to the rider - throws it's head up to un-nerve , evade , unbalance the rider a martingale can be used as an aid to training ( but first all other possible issues must be ruled out ) .
I had a horse like this myself several years ago - but the important thing was that after about 6 weeks the martingale was removed as it was no longer necessary.

If you and your horse are competing in eventing or showjumping - a martingale is advisable as a safety aid. A horse's ( and rider's) adrenaline / serotonin levels will be higher - this makes for ' interesting riding ' where sometimes the horse doesn't listen or react as it would normally. This does NOT mean that there is a lack of training or ability.
Also in some circumstances it may prevent the reins from coming completely over the horses head .

A martingale of any sort as a fashion accessory or a shortcut in training is not advisable, nor should they be used by in-experienced people. 
If a person or horse needs a martingale 24/7 then there is a problem with either rider or horse ( or both ) , and one day the martingale may be missing which could lead to disastrous results.

A martingale in itself is neither good or bad - it is how it is used.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Great post, Nutty Saddler.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

yeah. good post Nutty


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

Just to clarify things a bit

I use a Market Harborough ( or German martingale ) on a difficult horse / a horse in need of training , and a Running martingale when showjumping / competing

I do know of other martingales but don't use them.

I have several Irish martingales and a couple of standing, but have never used either.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

What is an Irish martingale Nutty?


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Stormy, this is what I found on an Irish Martingale. This consistently came up when I searched it though I've never seen one in person :http://www.brighteyesandbobtails.co.uk/acatalog/445G_Irish_martingale.JPG


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

I saw someone mention that standing is illegel in eventing, well, I thought I might just insert this:
According to the 2007 USEF Rule Book for the Hunter division, "Martingales of any type are prohibited in Under Saddle, hack and tie-breaking classes. Standing martingales are allowed for all over fence classes. All other martingales may be considered unconventional."


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

That's interesting, Supermane. I would have figured that they wouldn't allow them over fences but would on the flat, though I have seen them in over fences classes.

I think it's hilarious that they think that any other martingale EXCEPT the standing martingale is unconventional. Seems a little bass-ackwards to me! haha


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Oh yeah, I've seen those. They don't look like they do much


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Yeah that's what I thought too, Stormy. Looks like all they do is link the reins together...


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Drew- It's used so that the reins won't flip over the horse's head.


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

Irish Martingales are mostly used on the racetrack . It should prevent the reins going over the horses head in the event of a fall.

For your information - types of martingale

Running martingale
Standing martingale
Combined martingale
Grainger pattern martingale
Irish martingale
Pully martingale
Market Harborough or German martingale
False martingale
Bib Martingale 

Not to forget that the Chambon and De gouge also fall into the martingale family

Think thats most of them .

I have made for customers

Running , Standing , Bib , Irish , False and Market harborough


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

The only ones I have experience with are the ones used in most english disciplines: Standing, Running, and German. So, thanks for explaining the Irish to me. I had no idea what it did!

That's interesting that they call the Irish one a martingale. Doesn't seem like it has the general function of the martingales like a running or a standing. hmm... Learn something new everyday!


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

The Irish martingale does act as a martingale should the horses head be thrown up beyond a certain point . The martingale moves into the neck area and gives the rider some downwards leverage , but not much .


Irish martingale in use


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

Yep Nutty has it right and so does Stormy about the Irish Martingale although over here in Ireland I have never heard them being called and Irish martingale. My dad used to be a jockey and when I was young I asked him what it was called and he said some piece of leather that stops the reins flipping over a horse's head lol I later learned that it was called an Irish martingale.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

oh ok I see now. Thanks!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

savvylover112 said:


> Yep Nutty has it right and so does Stormy about the Irish Martingale although over here in Ireland I have never heard them being called and Irish martingale. My dad used to be a jockey and when I was young I asked him what it was called and he said some piece of leather that stops the reins flipping over a horse's head lol I later learned that it was called an Irish martingale.


 
Kind of like what we in the U.S. call Canadian bacon is just called ham in Canada.


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## savvylover112 (Jul 17, 2009)

Yep except we don't really have a name for an Irish martingale over here most of the time unless you have seen it for sale as an Irish martingale which doesn't normally happen because I have seen many of them in racing but I have never seen them being sold lol


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## Maverick101 (Nov 8, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Kind of like what we in the U.S. call Canadian bacon is just called ham in Canada.


LOL sorry Kevin...... Ham is Ham and Bacon is Bacon to us Canadians.
Its is BACK bacon that you Americans refer to as Canadian Bacon 

It is made from the loin cut, which is in the center of the pig's back. As a result, the bacon is much leaner than conventional bacon. Back bacon is prepared in the same way as conventional bacon, with a salting and smoking process intended to cure the meat. Slightly more sugar is usually used, lending a sweet quality to "Canadian bacon."

Sorry grew up on a hog farm :lol:

Carry on with your martingale talk


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Yep, and thanks for the clarification - these Yanks don't seem to understand what Canadian Bacon is. I am Canadian, living in Michigan and I get asked that question all the bloody time.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I haven't learned a thing about martingales but I now have some interesting facts for the next time I'm having pizza with the family.


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## Maverick101 (Nov 8, 2009)

Glad I can help make your family pizza night that much more meaningful


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

LOL! Gosh I love you guys, made my day


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

LOL I love that you called us Yanks MIEventer!


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

LOL! That is what Americans are called all over the world, especially in Canada and England/Ireland/Scottland.

I find it funny how you Yanks don't even know what a Toque is! ROFL!


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

Americans = Yanks

I agree with MIE on this , us Brits call Americans ( U.S.) Yanks , which by the way is a hell of a lot better than what some from other countries get called.

And Kevinshorses - if you haven't learned much about martingales then you can't have read much of the thread.


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Lol! I'm not a yank! I'm from the south!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Nutty Saddler said:


> And Kevinshorses - if you haven't learned much about martingales then you can't have read much of the thread.


 
I had a pretty good understanding of martingales before this thread started but I did learn a few things. I had no idea there were so many different kinds of martingales that I won't be using.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Nutty Saddler said:


> Americans = Yanks
> 
> I agree with MIE on this , us Brits call Americans ( U.S.) Yanks , which by the way is a hell of a lot better than what some from other countries get called.
> 
> And Kevinshorses - if you haven't learned much about martingales then you can't have read much of the thread.


LOL!!!!!! Wow...no one has ever called me a "Yank" before! :lol: I've only ever heard that term used as a reference to Americans who live in the northern states, by Southern dwellers who are still attached to the Civil War for some reason ;-) 

I thought other COUNTRIES just called us "dumb americans" LOL


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

And COME ON MIEventer, Canada's not all that different from us! ;-)

Well, except that you don't ever stick your nose in other people's business the way we do! 

And HEY you're MI now...you're a yank!


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

Dumb americans - not at all

Over-paid, Over-sexed and Over-here gets used sometimes or
never in the course of human history has one country had so much power and so little knowledge of how to use it properly is also often said

In general peoples opinions of americans differ from person to person, me personaly I don't have a problem with you over the pond - I would rather have you Yanks to deal with than some mindless moron who thinks that it's a good idea to blow yourself up, or, a certain group of countries that don't seem to care what they do to the planet as long as they make a profit.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

All Americans are yanks :]


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## rockaway (Jan 14, 2010)

HI I use a German Martingale on one of my horses ( Larry Trocha sells them). I am not a jumper so here is a post from another site.:::
The german martingale is my favorite training tool because once the horse is on the bit there is no martingale contact, only straight rein. I do not get deterioration in performance when the martingale is removed the way I do with a standing or running martingale. 

They are carried in the Dover catalogue but are quite pricy. I had mine made. I have a nice breastplate and I borrowed a friends german martingale for measurements and took it into a leathersmith. I brought all the hardware in with me. He put 3 D rings on both reins and put clips on either end of two pieces of leather that run from the breastplate through the bit to the reins. 

A word of caution though. They are dangerous to jump with because if you are left behind and pull on the mouth the horses head will be pulled to his chest and you could flip over forward. Also if the horse gets a leg though them by itching or something they can really freak out. (The foot through them was unfortunately learned by personal experience. My mare sat down before I got them unhooked


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

Nutty Saddler said:


> Dumb americans - not at all
> 
> Over-paid, Over-sexed and Over-here gets used sometimes or
> never in the course of human history has one country had so much power and so little knowledge of how to use it properly is also often said
> ...


lol nice to know! :lol: (and please don't judge us by our previous president LOL)


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> lol nice to know! :lol: (and please don't judge us by our previous president LOL)


Or our current one!! What a DUD.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Nutty Saddler said:


> Dumb americans - not at all
> 
> Over-paid, Over-sexed and Over-here gets used sometimes or
> never in the course of human history has one country had so much power and so little knowledge of how to use it properly is also often said
> ...


Or the occasional despot that is bent on taking over a continent or two.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

:lol:


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## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

President Obama V's Bush ........... Ok back on track


I use a Market Harborough or German martingale when schooling ( when required ) and a running martingale when showjumping. I have never used any other martingale - I know of quite a few but never use them.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

kevinshorses said:


> Or the occasional despot that is bent on taking over a continent or two.


LOL!!!!!!!! yeah, every President I have voted for since I turned 18 and got the right to vote has lost...maybe I should just start voting for the ones I DON'T like!! :lol:


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## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Haha! Sandie......


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## Hoofprints in the Sand (Nov 23, 2008)

lacyloo said:


> :lol:


 
LOL!!!!!! :lol:


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