# What is it with mules?



## BlueSpark

maybe your in an area with particular prejudice? Mules are different that horses, and I think many people do not have the skills to train them properly. I suspect that a lot of the wanna be cowboys that have a horse that they push around successfully try the same to a mule and are not very happy with the results.

Talk to anyone who knows what they are doing around them and many prefer them to horses.


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## Mulefeather

I love mules (hence my username!) and have owned one, and I plan to own more when the time comes. I will never go back to horses after my first mule, I always joke that Buddy ruined me on them for life- it was a lot more like owning a 1600 lb dog. But I think BlueSpark hit the nail on the head. Many people who find themselves very successful with horses try to use the exact same techniques on mules, which are usually based around the fact that horses are flight-based creatures – which mules are very much not. 

Whenever someone asks me about mules, particularly someone who is a horse person, I have to tell them straight up – Mules are NOT. HORSES. They are not horses with long ears and weird faces – they are a hybrid of two closely-related species with EXTREMELY different social and behavior patterns. Donkeys tend to freeze rather than flee, although fleeing is absolutely an option (they are equines, after all). Mules have inherited the donkey’s strong sense of self-preservation, and their intelligence is extremely high. There have been studies done through Crufts School of Veterinary Medicine in England that mules are actually more intelligent than horses, donkeys, and dogs in regards to problem-solving capabilities and long-term memory. If you trained a horse and a mule and then put them out to pasture for a year, then brought them back in and rode them, odds are the mule would remember everything it had been taught and not need much of a “refresher”. 

People try to “cowboy” them rather than training them how they need to be trained, and mules will not be bullied or forced into doing something. Hurting one just creates a nasty or avoidant mule. They also become very bored with repetition, which is something that horses need. 

So in summation, many people don’t like them because they don’t understand them, and they don’t want to work with them the way they need to be worked with. In that case it is not the MULE who is stubborn, but the people!


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## amberly

That makes sense.
..and I am guessing they also get their stubbornness from the donkey, haha!!


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## BlueSpark

> I am guessing they also get their stubbornness from the donkey,


 ask anyone who really knows how to work with mules and they will tell you they are not stubborn, they just cant be shoved around.


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## usandpets

I've heard that you have to get a mule to think it's their idea to do it. I don't really have any experience of my own, yet. We have a mule but he's just turned 1 a month ago. 

Mules tend to be more sure footed than horses. The are also very protective. There are many stories of mules killing coyotes and mountain lions, where horses would just flee.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squirrelfood

Mules are smart and opinionated. You have to be smarter than the mule to deal well with it, as well as fair-minded. Can't push them into much because they WILL "think" about it first. So patience is ALSO required. They remind me a lot of my Arabians. :smile:


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## KigerQueen

Donkeys and mules are considered "stubborn" because when they are scared or confused they freeze. A horse moves, a donkey or mule will lock up and not move. So when people cant MAKE them do what they want and the mule/ donkey locks up it comes across as stubborn. The mule and burro on the ranch taught me alot. And i got long eared fever!!!! I REALLY want a mule. maybe a arab mule.....


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## Yogiwick

squirrelfood said:


> Mules are smart and opinionated. You have to be smarter than the mule to deal well with it, as well as fair-minded. Can't push them into much because they WILL "think" about it first. So patience is ALSO required. They remind me a lot of my Arabians. :smile:


I was going to say that and I know very little about mules!


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## dkb811

squirrelfood said:


> Mules are smart and opinionated. You have to be smarter than the mule to deal well with it, as well as fair-minded. Can't push them into much because they WILL "think" about it first. So patience is ALSO required. They remind me a lot of my Arabians. :smile:


WOW, sounds just like my TB!


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## trailhorserider

I've been told by mules owners that mules tend to either be really good or really bad.....not a whole lot in-between. 

Also, everyone mentions that they tend not to spook like a horse, but I swear most of the the mules I have known (I have never owned one, but several of my neighbors have) were all a lot spookier than my horses, including my Arabians (who were actually pretty non-spooky). 

One of my neighbor's had a really sweet molly mule that I would have had the opportunity to buy if I had wanted her and I rode her a handful of times, but she would spook and goose forward and almost leave you behind. And I exclusively trail ride and just never felt comfortable with her, even though she was the sweetest thing ever on the ground. She also had a really funky canter, very level but almost like she was bolting. 

Anyway, I figure they are more like horses than some devotees would have you believe. There are good ones and not so good ones. And they will certainly bolt just like a horse. I have known, let's see, 7 mules I think, and out of that batch, only 3 would I consider really good trail mules. And out of that group of seven, I would say 3 were spookier than I would want to deal with. So with those odds, I might as well stick to horses. 

But yeah, they certainly have a devoted following. I'm just not sure they are superior to horses as some would have you believe. :lol:

But I know 3 mules that are AWESOME. Of course, I have known some AWESOME horses too.


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## Cherie

I love mules -- at least mules that have not been spoiled. A spoiled mule is not fun to train.

Most of the people who do not like mules do not understand them and most of these people are not as smart as the mule. 

On the other hand, if people have only been exposed to spoiled mules, it is very understandable why they would not like them.

Mules are NOT stubborn (nor are donkeys). They are just too smart to blindly do what some person (that knows less then they do) wants them to do unless they respect that person's opinion enough to do anything they want.

There is nothing more trust-worthy or more consistent than a good mule. There is nothing more sorry than a badly spoiled one.


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## wbwks

Here in the midwest a good mule will cost considerably more than a horse. As mentioned above, they are smart and they never forget. Never abuse a mule, a bad mule is certainly one that has been abused in some way. 

I currently have two riding mules and will breed two appaloosa mares next spring to a super gaited jack near me. My two mollies are about 20 years old and I want to get a molly colt that I will train. 

Mules are self preserving, that means they won't go into a boggy area, quicksand, or side step off of a cliff on a narrow trail. Thus the reason mules are used in the Grand Canyon. LOL if my mule refuses to go, I know there is something dangerous and I certainly listen.


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## hyperkalemic4

My daughter has had a mule she was training for a another person She won a open reining glass on him placed over some of the good ole boys. Mule men say they are six times smarter than a horse but it takes six times more time to train them. I know they can kick someone who is standing near their shoulder. I was boarding one my daughter had trained. The owner was squatting by his girth ready to put some med. on a cinch gall. I said don't be there he'll kick you. The guy stood up, stood by his shoulder put the stuff on the mule kicked him caught his belt buckle and tossed him . I know when they are good they are great. My kids have sold some they trained for over $8,000 at the Bishop, Ca sale.


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## Kawonu

I've ridden one mule and it was a blast. All he wanted to do was go, go, go! Hoping to have one later in life for mountain trail riding. For now, I've got a horse.


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## Ale

I have never ridden a mule or never been around one for that matter. But there is something about them that I am heavily drawn to. Their intelligence for one is something that never ceases to amaze me. As well as their ability to be all around animals; they seem to be able to do anything. I especially love their face features and those ears, of course! I especially love spotted/paint mules and buckskin mules. I also really adore draft mule crosses. Just their appearance amazes me and makes me fall in love with them over and over again <3 There is just something about them that really interests me. I always say that my next equine will be a mule. I do understand they are a lot different than horses, but that surly would be something I would love to learn about.


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## jackboy

I'm a QH person never liked mules I've retrained two that were spoiled only reason I don't like them is that 10 gallon head lol I'm not a fan of walking horses for that very reason also. We all have our opinions though I have a few friends who will not own a horse but are devoted to those long ears he works cattle ropes trail rides anything I do with my horse he does with his mule


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## ChitChatChet

I spent 20 years riding donkeys. We where then given some horses. My poor brain has had a heck of time learning horse.

I much prefer a donkey or a mule when out on treacherous terrain, if I stay on their back I will come out alive. Some horses are a wee bit too flighty for me.


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## george the mule

Hi ChitChatChet, All!

I can say with certainty that my li'l buddy George got way more than just his good looks from his donkey daddy 

I have had him for about six years. He has always been willing to take me for a ride, but it took him most of the first three years to teach me to speak "mule" instead of "horse". And the learning process continues.

Now that we are playing on the same page, he is a super mount. He's smart, he takes care of me, he's unflappable in any situation, he's extremely sure footed, he's comfortable to ride, and he's just darn good company. (And he can be a pain-in-the-butt spoiled brat when the mood takes him, but then can't they all?)

But it took that long.

I will comment that learning "mule" has helped with my "horse".

ByeBye! Steve


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## Yogiwick

"I will comment that learning "mule" has helped with my "horse"."

Interesting.


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## Mulefeather

George, I think you're right. There is an old saying about mules that you HAVE to treat a mule the way you SHOULD treat a horse.


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## george the mule

Hi Mulefeather, All!

I have heard that saying. I have also heard one that goes:
"You can tell a horse what to do, and you can _ask_ a donkey, but you negotiate with a mule."
It's this ongoing "negotiation" that has to be learned, more thru time/experience than anything, and if shortcuts exist, I haven't found them. But I have found that horses (at least my horses) respond well to "negotiation" as opposed to "command", and as I have gotten better at it, it has become the way I do business for the most part.

Mules vs Horses:

Consider that a donkey's social life is NOT that of a horse. They are not herd animals, and could care less who is Alpha. They are not "flight" animals either, but will aggressively fight back. Just in this, two of the predominent horse training techniques are rendered ineffective with donks.

Now Mr. Mule, being a hybrid, lies somewhere in between a horse, and a donkey. Not midway mind you, but somewhere, and just where depends on the individual mule, and also on the situation.

This results in the more horse-like mules being easier to train and work with, especially for people coming from a horsey background.

Anyway folks, when someone tells you that a mule is not a horse, believe it; it's not just a catchy phrase. Don't believe it? Hop on one and try to "command" him like a horse. But pick an area with soft dirt 

ByeBye! Steve


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## SueC

george the mule said:


> Hi Mulefeather, All!
> 
> I have heard that saying. I have also heard one that goes:
> "You can tell a horse what to do, and you can _ask_ a donkey, but you negotiate with a mule."
> It's this ongoing "negotiation" that has to be learned, more thru time/experience than anything, and if shortcuts exist, I haven't found them. But I have found that horses (at least my horses) respond well to "negotiation" as opposed to "command", and as I have gotten better at it, it has become the way I do business for the most part.


And that, in our experience as well, works a lot better with horses than attempted coercion, which is frequently the beginning of creating a so-called problem horse.

The whole alpha thing in herd animals has been much oversimplified and misconstrued, and is based on research in the first half of the 20th century that didn't actually work with family / genetically affiliated free-ranging groups, but with poorly socialised animals encountering "strangers". I really recommend Marthe Kiley-Worthington's "What It Is To Be Equine" - she's done long-term and extensive research with horses running relatively free in family groups, and her book is fascinating reading.


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## george the mule

SueC said:


> And that, in our experience as well, works a lot better with horses than attempted coercion, which is frequently the beginning of creating a so-called problem horse.
> 
> The whole alpha thing in herd animals has been much oversimplified and misconstrued, and is based on research in the first half of the 20th century that didn't actually work with family / genetically affiliated free-ranging groups, but with poorly socialised animals encountering "strangers". I really recommend Marthe Kiley-Worthington's "What It Is To Be Equine" - she's done long-term and extensive research with horses running relatively free in family groups, and her book is fascinating reading.


Hi Sue, All!

Yea, I've been trying to tell people this for some time, but no one wants to hear it. I guess because the Alpha concept works most of the time, with most horses. And because (in my sad experience), _most_ horse people are totally unwilling to even consider implementing changes that go against "The Way It Has Always Been Done", even in the face of clear evidence that the old ways are less than optimum, and often even harmful to the horse.
These kinds of changes just take time, I guess.
Sue, Amazon failed to find that book for me, altho it did find several related titles by the same author. Could you please check the title, or maybe see if it has an ISBN for me? Thanks!

ByeBye! Steve


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## SueC

george the mule said:


> Hi Sue, All!
> 
> Yea, I've been trying to tell people this for some time, but no one wants to hear it. I guess because the Alpha concept works most of the time, with most horses. And because (in my sad experience), _most_ horse people are totally unwilling to even consider implementing changes that go against "The Way It Has Always Been Done", even in the face of clear evidence that the old ways are less than optimum, and often even harmful to the horse.


You are not the only one to have observed this about many horse people. I guess it's a characteristic of most humans to think in paradigms rather than think critically, and then continually come up with and test hypotheses and modify procedures based on those outcomes. ;-)




> Sue, Amazon failed to find that book for me, altho it did find several related titles by the same author. Could you please check the title, or maybe see if it has an ISBN for me? Thanks!


The full title is "Horse Watch: What It Is To Be Equine" - a link below - let me know if you still want the ISBN. 

Horse Watch: The Equine Report: Marthe Kiley-Worthington: 9780851318882: Amazon.com: Books

Eco/Etho Research & Education Centre: Books & Articles

Book and website Â« Natural Horse World


Oh, and if you like the idea of using the invitation and reward technique (which I use) rather than just pressure and release, and want to see what happens when a person gets a mustang off the range and trains them purely on invitation and reward, this is a great blog here:

https://augustusthemustang.wordpress.com/

This person has had her mustang less than a year and is now teaching him to sit. Jan started in classical dressage and is an inspiration. It's worth going through the archives of this blog to see how quickly after the horse arrived at her place she and Augustus arrived at their marvellous working relationship. He was lying down on cue before she even attempted to back him. The many film clips in this blog ooze calm, trust, mutual respect and a sense of fun. Just as it should be!


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## SueC

My apologies, I think she's called Jye. But I just had our neighbour Jan over and I get fuzzy about three-letter names starting with J! Especially when I've not talked to them a while.


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## SueC

A random horse cartoon here, because I accidentally double posted and there is no "undo" for such a thing. ;-) You can just edit and present something vaguely better...


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## michaelvanessa

*invatationand reward.*

hi sue c.
you have hit the nail on the head i employ the same here.
i have a great horse whos mannors are second to none done to thoes methods.
ill break it down i place his feed just in side the door about 3 feet so the wall is on the right hand side and you have the back wall and then the left wall and the front.
ok i would untie him lead him about 10 feet ask for woah and he stops and i take his head collar off we then proceed towards the door and his head is by my hand and its a guide for him.
he has the greatest respect for me and as you can see ground rules set in kindness.
we go through the door past his feed he just has chaff and has a treat with apples and carrots so thats a good distraction but he passes the feed bowl and curves round following the back wall and continues untill he reaches the left wall and is faceing the front wall he comes to a halt.
he jumps the gun lol as he gives me a hug and presses his head in to my back so i have to ask him to stop and he does.
ok routeen starts i ask for a fore leg and he holds it up as to say thank you.
i ask him for a kiss (dont laugh but its true) he some times forgets so i say to him a gentle kiss.
he knows quite a lot of words and then i ask for a hug again he lifts his fore foot and then his head is in my back its like an arm of an excevator lol.
and i ask for a fore foot again and ask for one last kiss.
he does.
the funny thing i say to him lets have a talk and his head is in were my stomach is his neck curved round and he listens.
it sounds crazy but i would not want this horse any other way.
i can trust this horse with any body as long as thay follow his routeen.
after we have a talk i say to him go and eat your dinner and he proceeds foward to his feed bowl and i say find the apple and he routes through the chaff and finds it.
now this is his time and he is left alone.
this is his stable routeen for going to bed lol.
on top of this its done by reward titbits.
and i have a horse thats bright and smart with it to the main point is what you put in you should get back a well manord horse.
with no fuss as you are the alpha and with kindness and respect towards the horse and kind ness respect given back by the horse.


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## dbarabians

I have ridden 3 mules one with great gaits one with ok gaits and another like a donkeys .
the only mule my family ever owned in my lifetime was a surprise and we had to talk my father out of shooting it. he bought a QH mare that was not supposed to be bred for our breeding program. 
We noticed months later she was bred and was told by the former owners it was by their QH stallion.
One morning before school I noticed the mare had foaled.
Upon close inspection I noticed the foal was a mule.
When I told my father he grabbed his gun and if we had not begged and pleaded he would have shot it.
We named him the first words my father said when we told him [email protected]!t. 
We gave him away and he lived to be 35 and was used for raccoon hunting. 
I think one of the problems with mules is the mares used to produce them are often substandard.
I cant get past the head and ears. their intelligence and endurance though I like. Shalom


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## Mulefeather

Wow dbarabians, that's pretty crazy but glad your father was talked out of doing away with what proved to be a great animal. I do agree that it used to be people used their worst mare for mule-making, and it resulted in some pretty crummy mules with bad temperaments. The Spaniards got it right – you use your best mare for breeding mules because you want high quality, a good temperament, and a love of people bred into them. You cannot get a good mule from two sub-standard parents.


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## SueC

What's wrong with the head and ears? Adooooorable!  Like donkeys too!










(Mary Lou and Don Quixote, hanging around the house...)

PS Whose mule was that in the photo contest? I voted for it. Irresistible...


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## Mulefeather

OMG Sue! That FACE. That NOSE. That FUZZ. If she disappears, I know nothing about it


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## SueC

We laugh just looking at them. And the sounds they make in the morning the moment we open the door to untie the dog! M-waaaah! Hee-haaaw! Snoooorrrt! M-waaaah! :rofl:


Here's a repeat of a donkey classic from France:


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## dbarabians

There are a dozen donkeys on the properties my family and I own. They have such wonderful personalities and are very intelligent.
They keep the number of feral barn cats to a reasonable number.
I like them but cannot see the beauty of a mule.
I like my equines refined. Arabians ASB' TBs those types of breeds.
So the head and the ears turn me off. Thats just me but I dont think mules are substandard equines. 
I just have no reason to own one. Shalom


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## diesel7

I have a horse and a mule, have had the mule for around 3 months now, I bought it her off a friend that needed money, for a really good deal. I ride her more than my horse now, shes really good in the tough rocky mountains here where i live. Manners are similar to a horse, but she seems smarter and trips less in the rough stuff. She'll go almost anywhere I point her, and never stops. I never knew they were all go all the time. And so much smoother than my quarter horse. I'll never get rid of my horse, but I really love my mule!!


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## Mulefeather

Diesel, that's an awful thing to do to us - telling us all about this wonderful mule and not providing pictures!! The nerve ;-) 

Honestly would love to see some pics of your long-eared lady! A good one quickly becomes your favorite.


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