# Enough for small claims?



## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Have tou talked to a lawyer yet? Theyll know more about it.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

if it was eBay put in a claim


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

If you paid paypal file a claim.

And a tip for next time is ask for a picture of the measurement. If I ever buy a saddle online I make sure I see pictures with the seat, gullet and flaps measured. 

Good luck!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Your best bet is probably to resale it and try recoup your loss if you didn't get in somewhere like eBay or through PayPal where you can file a claim.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

She's likely spent the money. A call to the court house will tell you in brief how to file in small claims. There may be a filing fee. Ask if it makes a diff. is she's out of state.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Um, I really think this is nothing more than a case of buyer beware. You learned a lesson, resell the saddle and move on.

Make sure to get pictures of the measurements before you buy next time.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Totally agree Smrobs. I sold a saddle last fall, and basically, after 3 weeks the lady tells me it is not the size I sold it as, if was 1/2" smaller. She filed a claim with eBay......what a pain that was. I could not buy anything without refunding her the $$, and I had no intention of that. I finally called eBay and got them to find in my favor-and they did so BECAUSE I POSTED PICTURES OF EVERY MEASUREMENT IMAGINABLE. She had no leg to stand on. 

Never buy a saddle without seeing how the person measures the gullet, seat, etc. Lesson learned. I would suggest you sell it, and when you do-post LOTS of pictures.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

excuse me, but that is not buyer beware, that is FRAUD and its a crime, call her and demand your money back or you will file charges. call the police in her area and also the postal inspectors. How did you pay for saddle ? if it was a credit card, call your bank and report it


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You really think it's fraud when it's a case of measuring a saddle, which most police depts know absolutely nothing about? I doubt it.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

So someone who has no clue how to measure a saddle guesses at the size and gets it wrong is a case of fraud? Really? :?

It's not like they pulled a culled bucking horse from the kill pen and then sold it for $20,000 as a show horse.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> excuse me, but that is not buyer beware, that is FRAUD and its a crime, call her and demand your money back or you will file charges. call the police in her area and also the postal inspectors. How did you pay for saddle ? if it was a credit card, call your bank and report it


Oh my, I honestly hope you don't shop Ebay, and if you do, that you never bid on anything that I'm selling!!!! I am honestly horrified at the intensity and conviction of your response here! Seriously, you're going to call someone up and start threatening them?

I'm sure that others have also read up on the horror stories from other vendors...even though I always take plenty of pictures, I'm HUMAN! And who's to say that the buyer chose his/her measurements right?! Two sides to any story and again, people make mistakes.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The rules for small claims vary from state to state. From a quick Internet search, in Colorado, the claim needs to be filed in the county where the defendant lives. Same for Kansas. You would need to check the rules for the specific state.

I filed a claim in small claims once, for $5000. The guy who did the septic inspection before I bought the house (with a completely bad septic system, as it turned out) admitted in court that he never did the inspection. He admitted he "Figured, what were the odds? So I just signed the form and took my $150". The judge was silent for about 30 seconds, and then said, "This man is a licensed contractor. He did everything possible. Your case is dismissed!" If I had known then what I know now, I'd have filed a complaint against the judge with the State Bar. 

Bottom line: For me at least, I wouldn't think of going to small claims over $400. Your gas money going to and from while filing the paperwork would probably eat up anything you won, which might NOT be $400.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

BSMS-since I just went through this out of state, I will say that you can file by fax or mail in most states-the forms are available on line. Now, is is worth is for $400? Up to the OP. But I will say that the fees will be about 1/3 that amount most likely, at least from what I found. Yes, IF you win, the judge can find the defendant liable for the fees also, but that is a big IF. 

I had a saddle company owe me $$-sent a certified letter telling them to pay by ____ or I would file. The check came the day before I mailed the papers. So, OP-you can try that first and see if that gets you anywhere, but, like I said, you should have asked for a picture of the measurement. You would see me in court if it were me.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Eh, I bought a German made Stubben off CL that was advertised as an 18" seat. When I got it it was HUGE, so I measured it and found it to be a 19" seat. Instead of freaking out at the seller, I turned around and resold the saddle with the correct measurements. Took about a week. No fuss, no muss.

That's what I recommend you do as well, OP. I sincerely doubt the seller was trying to defraud you. It's not like you got a crappy, falling apart piece of garbage. The saddle has worth, and you can sell it on and recoup your money.


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## GoGoJoeGranny (Dec 15, 2012)

I don't think I'd be screaming fraud either, as it simply could be a mis-measurement on the seller's part. But with that being said, I would say this is about integrity. It's not like the purchaser received the item and then decided the size was wrong, she specifically sought out a certain size saddle, and if the seller was wrong in measuring it, they should do the right thing and take the saddle back. If you purchased say a pair of pants from a reputable online vendor in a size 27 and they sent you a 28, they would replace them with the correct size or refund you if they didn't have a 27. 
Like others have suggested, if it was purchased through e-bay, or with PayPal/ your CC, I would put the pressure on with those resources. Sure you could turn around and try to re-coup your money, but what an incredible waste of your time and efforts, with no guarantee of recovery, because the seller has no integrity. Just walking away is enabling this seller to continue their dishonest sale tactics, if not for you, do it for the next buyer that crosses their path!


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

GoGoJoeGranny said:


> I don't think I'd be screaming fraud either, as it simply could be a mis-measurement on the seller's part. But with that being said, I would say this is about integrity. It's not like the purchaser received the item and then decided the size was wrong, she specifically sought out a certain size saddle, and if the seller was wrong in measuring it, they should do the right thing and take the saddle back. If you purchased say a pair of pants from a reputable online vendor in a size 27 and they sent you a 28, they would replace them with the correct size or refund you if they didn't have a 27.
> Like others have suggested, if it was purchased through e-bay, or with PayPal/ your CC, I would put the pressure on with those resources. Sure you could turn around and try to re-coup your money, but what an incredible waste of your time and efforts, with no guarantee of recovery, because the seller has no integrity. Just walking away is enabling this seller to continue their dishonest sale tactics, if not for you, do it for the next buyer that crosses their path!


So here's the problem with that (and one reason I'm getting sick and tired of Ebay): So, the buyer can SAY anything. I state in my auctions that there are no returns, just for that reason!!!! Say I didn't pay attention to the 20 pictures the seller posted--I just don't like the color of the back, or some stupid cosmetic thing I don't like. All I have to say is "ITEM NOT AS DESCRIBED!!" And Ebay will back me, and screw the seller over! Look it up: there was a famous case recently about this guy who got screwed over an iPhone....turns out the BUYER was commiting fraud, and had done it to three or four other sellers! 

He'd buy these expensive electronics, say "Item not as described"...get his money back, ding the seller, and he'd KEEP THE ITEMS!

Now, for that, for buyers remorse and many other reasons, I say "no returns". You'd think that would deter people, and maybe it does...but trust me, there are other buyers, like one idiot, complaining from day 1 about stuff *before the item even shipped*, pays late, gets the item, says it's the wrong size (I stated clearly the measurements of the item, which were on the PICTURED TAG even if I hadn't!), and what? Do you want your money back? It's not my fault you can't read! I am honestly not trying to screw people over, but at the same time, I'm not shipping stuff to people so they can look at it, see it, make it dirty, then TAKE MY MONEY to ship it back to me in unsaleable condition.

If I sound frustrated, well, I am not a mega seller. I'm not Walmart! I take a very direct hit to my wallet when people are unscrupulous! 

It would be a different story if the item was really different than described. As you all know, saddle fit is really not one size fits all...you have no idea how many people email me "so um, will this saddle fit my horse? Like is this saddle for a high withered skinny minnie, or would it fit a QH?"

How the heck should I know?! I'm not an expert, that's also stated in auction, as are pictures and measurements...go get your horse measured, and know before you bid! UGH!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

^^ Exactly-and, BTW-the saddle I sold and the lady wanted he $3K back? Guess what-it is listed-on eBay again, AND-they are using one of my pictures! I have contacted eBay....but....we will see. And only ONE picture. If I am shopping for a saddle I know what the saddle I have measures and where I measured it so that I will have a pretty good idea how another will fit my horse. Insist on MANY pictures!


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## GoGoJoeGranny (Dec 15, 2012)

I can understand your frustration for what you are talking about, but the OP clearly stated the item was not the same size as it was listed. It was not an act of the buyer, but the seller. And she did not even mention whether it fit the horse, she took it out of the box to measure the advertised seat size. No mention of it even being near a horse. 
I have used E-Bay for well over 15 years now. The last few years, I avoid it like the plague due to sellers not backing their products. I personally work in a (sort-of) retail business, and take great pride in creating RETURN customers. That's where we make our business flourish. Sure you may take an occasional hit on a (fill in any word here) buyer, but the relationships you create in the long run help pay many more overhead expenses. Word of mouth is always the BEST advertising, and it's relatively free! 
I mean I do understand where you are coming from, but this is not what you are describing from what's posted. She basically bought a size 7 shoe and was sent an 8, she was duped into a purchase and deserves to be righted. If my inability to use the brakes correctly at a red light meant I didn't have to pay for the damage I caused t-boning a car, then maybe I'd see your point.... 




demonwolfmoon said:


> So here's the problem with that (and one reason I'm getting sick and tired of Ebay): So, the buyer can SAY anything. I state in my auctions that there are no returns, just for that reason!!!! Say I didn't pay attention to the 20 pictures the seller posted--I just don't like the color of the back, or some stupid cosmetic thing I don't like. All I have to say is "ITEM NOT AS DESCRIBED!!" And Ebay will back me, and screw the seller over! Look it up: there was a famous case recently about this guy who got screwed over an iPhone....turns out the BUYER was commiting fraud, and had done it to three or four other sellers!
> 
> He'd buy these expensive electronics, say "Item not as described"...get his money back, ding the seller, and he'd KEEP THE ITEMS!
> 
> ...


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

demonwolfmoon said:


> Oh my, I honestly hope you don't shop Ebay, and if you do, that you never bid on anything that I'm selling!!!! I am honestly horrified at the intensity and conviction of your response here! Seriously, you're going to call someone up and start threatening them?
> 
> I'm sure that others have also read up on the horror stories from other vendors...even though I always take plenty of pictures, I'm HUMAN! And who's to say that the buyer chose his/her measurements right?! Two sides to any story and again, people make mistakes.


Threatening them? he said nothing about threatening them. wow **** wow


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Joe4d said:


> excuse me, but that is not buyer beware, that is FRAUD and its a crime, call her and demand your money back or you will file charges. call the police in her area and also the postal inspectors. How did you pay for saddle ? if it was a credit card, call your bank and report it


Actually, he DID imply threats, with telling them "you will file charges".......

Granny-it is not the same as shoe sizes. At all. People seem to measure saddles however they want. there seem to be differing trains of thought, and Western measured differently than english, etc......In fact we had a thread here at one point. So, people easily measure the same thing and get different sizes. That is why it is critical that you know HOW they measured it, and the exact points they measured from. Same goes with gullet. That is JUST as much of an "Ify" thing, if not more.


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> Actually, he DID imply threats, with telling them "you will file charges".......
> 
> Granny-it is not the same as shoe sizes. At all. People seem to measure saddles however they want. there seem to be differing trains of thought, and Western measured differently than english, etc......In fact we had a thread here at one point. So, people easily measure the same thing and get different sizes. That is why it is critical that you know HOW they measured it, and the exact points they measured from. Same goes with gullet. That is JUST as much of an "Ify" thing, if not more.


those are not threats. telling someone you are going to file charges is not a threat rofl!!!! oh dear. I'd like to see you try to report to the police that someone called you saying they were going to file charges. "Um yes officer he said he was going to file charges!!" rofl oh dear god.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

If you bought a saddle without getting pictures if the measurements, then I'm sorry that you had to learn a hard lesson. 

If you used EBay or PayPal, if you saved the item description, and take your own measurement pictures, you maybe can get your money back. 

If not, resell it yourself for $400
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

I'd file claim if pp, cc or e-bay.

Could try to sell it. And may do so.

But I would at least inquire as to filing charges as it is interstate fraud possibly on seller's part.

For that matter? We don't know if this person had 10 of these saddles and simply sent her wrong size, the right one went to someone else and she just doesn't want to admit she is wrong.


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## GoGoJoeGranny (Dec 15, 2012)

FNB, I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I do see your point and do agree with many other things I see you post on HF. I just, for me, I back what I sell, whether I am right or wrong, I am old school, the customer, no matter how bad I want to choke them out, is always right. I know I work dang hard for my income so to feel duped in a situation like this, it's easy for me to take the side of the buyer. To me, taking back merchandise to resell to the right buyer that will be happy with it, that's just what I do. 
The internet sales to me are what kills local businesses. Like Americans can totally provides sales to one another, yet they come with no warranty, no guarantee, no returns, and yet these big corps, like Walmart, where nothing is made in the US, back their crappy products and that's where everyone decides to shop b/c at least when they are unhappy (justified or not), they feel like they are done right, to me, if I was the seller, it would be no big deal, I'd tell her to ship it back to me and I'd refund her. I'm already in the market to sell, so relisting wouldn't be a big deal and I'd already have the connections to re-sell. And MAYBE, she'd come back and buy a halter, or something, knowing I offered great customer service, which in the end, would cover my loss of returning the original product. Plus, she might tell a friend how easy it was to deal with the "dreadful" return process, who needed 10 new blankets for her barn come winter. 
But again, I will agree to disagree on this one, to each his own, and now I know I won't ever shop E-Bay for horse stuff LOL ;-)


franknbeans said:


> Granny-it is not the same as shoe sizes. At all. People seem to measure saddles however they want. there seem to be differing trains of thought, and Western measured differently than english, etc......In fact we had a thread here at one point. So, people easily measure the same thing and get different sizes. That is why it is critical that you know HOW they measured it, and the exact points they measured from. Same goes with gullet. That is JUST as much of an "Ify" thing, if not more.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

PurpleMonkeyWrench said:


> those are not threats. telling someone you are going to file charges is not a threat rofl!!!! oh dear. I'd like to see you try to report to the police that someone called you saying they were going to file charges. "Um yes officer he said he was going to file charges!!" rofl oh dear god.


Perhaps it doesn't fit YOUR description of a threat, of one in some legal book However, I will guarantee you some of us would at least think twice. No need to be so condescending with all of your "rofl". That is insulting. Then add the "oh dear god" like it is the dumbest thing you have EVER heard. we all know you are so much better than those of us "regular" folks.


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

franknbeans said:


> Perhaps it doesn't fit YOUR description of a threat, of one in some legal book However, I will guarantee you some of us would at least think twice. No need to be so condescending with all of your "rofl". That is insulting. Then add the "oh dear god" like it is the dumbest thing you have EVER heard. we all know you are so much better than those of us "regular" folks.


sorry my laughing offended you and I sometimes speak my mind. I apologize, but there is no need to stoop to my level. correct?


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

PurpleMonkeyWrench...you are being wretchedly rude, and it's not only obnoxious, but it's also unwarranted. As stated before, this is a family forum and there is no need for that. That's kind of like me seeing someone else's rudeness and one-upping it with a "What, are you twelve?"

But again, that would be rude.

That being said... YEAH, telling someone that either made a mistake or is about to get screwed over by a lovely buyer *IS* a threat! If you haven't had to pay for lawyers before, then you may not know that, but my lawyer costs me $250 an hour. It's not all that easy or fun, and even if someone is completely honest and innocent of the accusations, their time is spent, their energy is spent, their money is spent and they have to suffer through worrying about the situation.

It would be all well and good if people were honest, or if justice was REALLY BLIND, but let's be honest....sometimes, a judgement is based on however Judge Jane Doe feels that day, ESPECIALLY in small claims court. It's not always right, but that's the way it is.

@Granny: I don't think it's like buying a size 8 shoe and getting a 9 or whatever...it's more like ordering an 8W and getting an 8M.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

PurpleMonkeyWrench said:


> *Threatening them? he said nothing about threatening them. wow **** wow*


Just to make you giggle a little bit harder at the expense of others:

threat [thret] 
noun
1.
a declaration of an intention or determination *to inflict punishment, injury, etc., in retaliation for, or conditionally upon, some action or course; menace:* He confessed under the threat of imprisonment.
2.
an indication or warning of probable trouble: The threat of a storm was in the air.
3.
a person or thing that threatens.
verb (used with object), verb (used without object)
4.
Archaic. to threaten.


***********

As in, Joe (for example) calls someone up and says "hey, if you don't give me all my money back, I'm going to say that the item wasn't described and take you to small claims!!!"


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

how is back-lashing when I already apologized make you a more mature than me? I genuinely apologized and your ongoing rants are only fueling the fires. so please lets try not to act 12 as I clearly do and dismiss the problem at hand. Also, if she just called to tell the person they are filing a charge and warrants nothing out of it, that is not included in your Wikipedia definition of a threat.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

toto said:


> Have tou talked to a lawyer yet? Theyll know more about it.


 It doesn't m,ake sense to talk to a lawyer on such a small amount. Regardless of where you bought it You should have paid pay pal and you can dispute it.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

smrobs said:


> So someone who has no clue how to measure a saddle guesses at the size and gets it wrong is a case of fraud? Really? :?
> 
> It's not like they pulled a culled bucking horse from the kill pen and then sold it for $20,000 as a show horse.


 Once you show them how to measure and it is indeed measured wrong then they should return it. Ignorance doesn't make it legal or ethical.
Does it have the size stamped in the flap.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Eh, I bought a German made Stubben off CL that was advertised as an 18" seat. When I got it it was HUGE, so I measured it and found it to be a 19" seat. Instead of freaking out at the seller, I turned around and resold the saddle with the correct measurements. Took about a week. No fuss, no muss.
> 
> That's what I recommend you do as well, OP. I sincerely doubt the seller was trying to defraud you. It's not like you got a crappy, falling apart piece of garbage. The saddle has worth, and you can sell it on and recoup your money.


 a 16.5 saddle is not in demand a 17.5 is more sellable.


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## demonwolfmoon (Oct 31, 2011)

PurpleMonkeyWrench said:


> how is back-lashing when I already apologized make you a more mature than me? I genuinely apologized and your ongoing rants are only fueling the fires. so please lets try not to act 12 as I clearly do and dismiss the problem at hand. Also, if she just called to tell the person they are filing a charge and warrants nothing out of it, that is not included in your Wikipedia definition of a threat.


Actually, it was Dictionary.com and not Wikipedia. 
And YES, it is a threat because if you are going to file charges, JUST FILE. There is a little nifty official letter that serves the purpose of notifying that without *contact*, a lawsuit will be filed. 

Calling someone is clearly expecting some sort of resolution or response. It implies threat. Aka, "Do what I want, or I'll do this!".

Either way, as long as the seller didn't bait and switch her, and the mistake can be explained as a SIMPLE MISTAKE, there's no need to get one's panties in a bunch. Sell the **** thing for a profit and move on.


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

demonwolfmoon said:


> Actually, it was Dictionary.com and not Wikipedia.
> And YES, it is a threat because if you are going to file charges, JUST FILE. There is a little nifty official letter that serves the purpose of notifying that without *contact*, a lawsuit will be filed.
> 
> Calling someone is clearly expecting some sort of resolution or response. It implies threat. Aka, "Do what I want, or I'll do this!".
> ...


Okay


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

I think the problem here is that saddle measurements aren't 100% consistent. Mine is a 16.5" seat, and it's stamped as a 17". My sisters saddle is stamped as an 18", but measures at 17". My vote is that unless OP got pictures of the measurement there's unfortunately not much you can do, and you're better off reselling for close to the same amount than you are trying to file claims, especially if there are fees involved. You never know if you'll get all your money back, and even if you don't you have fees to pay.


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## fivecardstudpts (Jul 5, 2009)

Initially I wasn't going to file, I originally figured that it was a mistake on the sellers part and that she really did mid measure the saddle. After asking for a refund, it was clear the saddle was not a 17.5" as soon as I opened the box, she sent me a couple replies that just didn't make any sense, and made me think she knew it wasn't a 17.5". Unfortunately, saddles around here don't sell quickly, so I know I would never recoup my money either. She is in the next state over from me. About 3 hours. Her account has suddenly disappeared as well so I can't get ahold of her any more either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

If you can't find her you may not be able to file. You need some pretty specific info. I just went through the paperwork to file, but thankfully my person (after 2 years) decided to pay me after a certified letter letting them know I was going to file.

Your sale area is not limited to your neighborhood. List it on eBay. Just know that there will be fees and postage.

Good luck!


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## ladygodiva1228 (Sep 5, 2012)

OP did you pay through paypal? File NOW through both ebay and paypal.

My husband purchased a 20ft car trailer about 8 years ago. We drove to PA to pick it up and the seller didn't have the title in hand, but assured us that as soon as he found it he would send it. It did state in the ebay listing that the trailer had a title. In CT you need a title to register everything. After a few weeks of back and forth e-mails the guy just disappeared. So I contacted Ebay explaining everything to them. They opened a case against him, but they to could not get him to respond. He then closed his ebay account. Long story short my husband got to keep the trailer and got his $1000 back. Luckly for him I still owned a house in RI and could register it as homemade, but because we had to register it as homemade we can not sell it for any where near what it is truely worth. So that trailer is a keeper. Don't wait any longer I believe you have either 30 or 60 days to file the complaint. Best of luck.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Ladygodiva, despite being registered as home made most people will recognize it as manufactured. Home made carries a connotation of crudeness. You can always tell a potential buyer that it was custom made, same thing, just carries a different connotation.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

There a lot of home made trailers in my area. They range from trailers made from old pick up beds, to some really nice dump trailers and car trailers.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

fivecardstudpts said:


> Initially I wasn't going to file,





> She is in the next state over from me.


Double check the rules before you file anything.

If the person is in another state, you options may be limited. You will likely not get them to come to your local court to dispute the claim. This MAY allow you to win the claim by default, but it will leave you with no way to collect. Your local small claims court will probably be powerless to enforce a ruling on someone in another state.

While the filing fee may be minimal, there is no reason the throw good money after bad. At the least, it is worth exploring this before filing.


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