# My Craptacularly Crippled Cayuse



## bubba13

Up for conformation critique. Currently nine years old (though these photos are all from two to four years ago). 1D barrel mare with limited hauling and unlimited capacity to injure herself. Now sadly retired from the barrel pen due to lingering old (and new) soft tissue, etc. problems in the left front leg. When she's hobbling is better than aerage, we now practice dressage....badly. 





































Last attached photo is the most recent.


----------



## WhoaNow

Pretty color,..., I've always liked a flea bitten grey.
How incredibly sad that she is permanently crippled at 9 years of age:-(.
She's put together really well, what could have happened for her to have to be retired at 9?
Hopefully, she is still able to be lightly trail ridden.

Opps, I see you say you are now practicing dressage.
I hope that's not too strenuous on a horse with soft tissue damage?

Good luck with her:wink:


----------



## QOS

She is a pretty mare...maybe with some rest and off time she will improve enough for light dressage and trail riding.


----------



## HorseyChic

Cute
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## rodeoqueen77

very pretty


----------



## rodeoqueen77

i use to have a horse that looked like that


----------



## corinowalk

I can totally believe she was really great at barrels, she is very well built for it. 

She is very well balanced with good muscling all over. Shorter neck, shorter back, compact hindquarter. 

She has a little bit more of an upright shoulder, nothing tragic though. Shorter pasterns with great angles! In the back, shes got some spring to her hock that I like in a speed horse. 

Overall, I like Miss Bones. I think shes built quite nicely!


----------



## waresbear

This is an attractive horse, the firefly chaser correct? Nice muscling & a good topline, great back engine. I am no expert, so take my critique with a grain of salt. I do see a bit of post legs on hind legs and her neck is a wee bit on the short side and ties in high to her shoulders, with the pronounced dip before her withers. Excellent condition and nice weight, well cared for horse.


----------



## Elana

She is nice but incredibly upright and straight in front. The legs is so straight and the pasterns don't help that a LOT.. a bit short. Left hock looks capped in the saddle picture and hind pasterns look very upright. 

Isn't this the same mare you were false racking? 

IMO she does not have enough hock to do a LOT of dressage at higher levels. She may have enough try but she really does not have the appearance of a dresage horse. That being said, dressage basics are good for any horse.


----------



## bubba13

WhoaNow said:


> Pretty color,..., I've always liked a flea bitten grey.
> How incredibly sad that she is permanently crippled at 9 years of age:-(.
> She's put together really well, what could have happened for her to have to be retired at 9?


Well, I think you already know the story, but a lot of people here don't, so I'll retell. She came up lame with an abscess in her right front in May of '09. We doctored that, but afterwards, she just didn't seem "right." The vet thought she was off in the hind and slightly positive to hock flexions, so we injected her there, and she was declared "sound"--but she didn't seem sound to me. I kept riding her but she didn't feel right, so back to the vet--now she was off on her left front. We radiographed and ultrasounded, to no avail. We injected her coffin bone. The vet thought she wa better, but she wasn't. Then the vet thought she might have torn her sesamoid ligament. We turned her out for three months, on pasture, no riding. No improvement, either. So we stall-rested her for a month and reinjected the coffin region. Again, nothing. In October of '09, we redid the ultrasound and radiographs, which were still clean, and then hauled her to an out-of-state hospital for an MRI. This showed three significant tears in the deep digital flexor tendon, in addition to some other minor problems. Prognosis was "fair," with a 70% chance of return to soundness if we followed their protocol. This consisted of IRAP injections, shockwave therapy, and five months of stall rest, with minimal handwalking. All of this was done as ordered. At the end, she seemed much better. My local vet thought she was great. I legged her back up and started entering her in barrel races. She did extremely well, winning or placing in the 1D almost every time, with only limited hauling and experience. But then she started a faint headbob again. I talked to the vet and she thought that perhaps there was scar tissue on the tendon that needed to work itself out; that, or perhaps her tendon sheath was inflamed. I made an appointment to have her tendon sheath injected, but the day before the scheduled appointment, after a few days of not even being touched, she came up lamer than ever before. Thus began round II. We shockwaved her multiple times, injected her in several areas, stall rested her, pen rested her, did even more therapeutic shoeing (we'd been doing therapeutic stuff all along before, with the most highly regarded farrier in the region), etc. etc. etc. But it just kept happening. I have not done any hard riding on her since August of '10. But whatever riding I do does not seem to influence her degree of soundness. I have not been able to determine any kind of pattern to her lameness, and neither have the two vets currently treating her, nor the farrier. 

I have finally given up taking her to the vet, after--literally--twice-a-month visits earlier this year, and false hope every time, and many expensive treatments. She is never badly lame, and her quality of life is fine, but I've now spent two years and over $6000 (yes, of my own meager savings) trying to fix her, all to no avail. When she's doing well, I ride her lightly, and when she's "off," I let her be.



> Hopefully, she is still able to be lightly trail ridden.
> 
> Opps, I see you say you are now practicing dressage.
> I hope that's not too strenuous on a horse with soft tissue damage?


The vet told me to go ahead and barrel race her--that she's sounder than half the horses out there (which, sadly, is true). That said, I'm _not_ following the vet's advice.



> Good luck with her:wink:


Well thank you very much.



corinowalk said:


> I can totally believe she was really great at barrels, she is very well built for it.
> 
> She is very well balanced with good muscling all over. Shorter neck, shorter back, compact hindquarter.
> 
> She has a little bit more of an upright shoulder, nothing tragic though. Shorter pasterns with great angles! In the back, shes got some spring to her hock that I like in a speed horse.
> 
> Overall, I like Miss Bones. I think shes built quite nicely!


Much appreciate it! I don't know if it was dumb luck on my part or what that picked out the scrawny, grade (at the time), fugly gray four-year-old and saw potential. Potential for bitchiness, that is. 



waresbear said:


> This is an attractive horse, the firefly chaser correct? Nice muscling & a good topline, great back engine. I am no expert, so take my critique with a grain of salt. I do see a bit of post legs on hind legs and her neck is a wee bit on the short side and ties in high to her shoulders, with the pronounced dip before her withers. Excellent condition and nice weight, well cared for horse.


Yep, she is a tad posty in the hocks, and her neck sure isn't the greatest. Bullneck--that was and is a fight, to get her to carry herself without thrusting it out and developing ewed muscling, which she has naturally, anyway.



Elana said:


> She is nice but incredibly upright and straight in front. The legs is so straight and the pasterns don't help that a LOT.. a bit short. Left hock looks capped in the saddle picture and hind pasterns look very upright.


Not sure what you mean but straight in the front? Are you referring to her shoulder, or her pasterns, or...? Her shoulder is, yes, more upright than I would like. I've always thought her pasterns to be short, but not upright. Regarding the appearance of capped hocks, she naturally carries a lot of fluid in her tendon sheaths. I think that's part of the reason why the vet thought she needed her hocks injected. But I don't think it's indicative of lameness...I think that's just her oddity.



> Isn't this the same mare you were false racking?
> 
> IMO she does not have enough hock to do a LOT of dressage at higher levels. She may have enough try but she really does not have the appearance of a dresage horse. That being said, dressage basics are good for any horse.


Yep, it's the mare with the funky-bad gait (she's always had it, since long before she went lame). I never really thought of her as a dressage horse, either, but on the earlier threads, a lot of people were commenting on how she'd make a good one. :shock: The woman (the vet's husband and a highly respected local H/J & dressage coach) who gave me a lesson, however, just loved her and thought she was a "mini Warmblood." Color me surprised, to say the least.


----------



## pintophile

Love her colour. I'm not an expert, but I've always been told to look at horses and judge them on whether you'd want them in your barn. In her case, yes, I would  Beautiful mare.


----------



## Elana

Capped hocks rarely cause lameness by themselves. If the cap was caused by a blow, the horse may be lame as he heals from the initial trauma but most capped hocks are from repeated banging such as bedding on concrete or the like (when there are also capped elbows). I saw it so simply noted it.

By straight.. I mean from ner fetlock joints upr through her shoulder but especially at her knees. This straightness does not allow any (or much) shock absorption. It is not BACK at the knee which is much worse as you well know.. but over straight is not good. I suspect the soft tissue injury (or repetitive injury) may be partly due to that straightness. 

Her hocks are not large for her body size. They are adequate, but not overly large. A roomier hock helps (again) with shock absorption. 

Does this mean she is not a very nice Quarterhorse? No. It is simply the critique of the images. She is a fine animal.

I always look at any horse as if it were going to be bred (years of doing this). I look at this horse and want to find a stud with a less straight front and more bone. Of course, in the breed that is probably not going to happen easily but they are out there. Beyond that is finding one that not only counters the faults I see but one that has the prepotency to pass those better traits on to the offspring. 

As I said.. it is a critique from photos. Does not mean she is not a fine looking animal.


----------



## bubba13

I hope I'm not giving off the impression that I think my pony is perfect and beyond criticism--I mean, she _is_, but I don't want to seem all conceited... 

I'm trying to figure out what you're saying here--do you find 'over at the knees' to be a desirable trait?


----------



## Elana

Over at the knee is not desirable but it is mostly a cosmetic fault in my experience seeing lots of over at the knee horses working in their late teens and 20's. 

Over straight is just that.. over straight.. no shock absorbing room. Conformation needs to be correct but it needs to be live. Straight is correct but your horse appears mathematically correct.. no wiggle room and without that you have no shock absorbing space. So if she steps wrong or lands hard it jars her all the way to her teeth.. or at least to her pasterns and her shoulder. 

It is a fussy complaint on my part but I think her soft tissue issues coupled with demanding work (barrel racing) stem from this over straight front leg.


----------



## bubba13

Now you've really piqued my interest. Do you have any photos showing your "ideal" knee, for a comparison?


----------



## WhoaNow

Elana said:


> Over at the knee is not desirable but it is mostly a cosmetic fault in my experience seeing lots of over at the knee horses working in their late teens and 20's.
> 
> Over straight is just that.. over straight.. no shock absorbing room. Conformation needs to be correct but it needs to be live.
> Straight is correct but your horse appears mathematically correct..
> no wiggle room and without that you have no shock absorbing space.
> So if she steps wrong or lands hard it jars her all the way to her teeth..
> or at least to her pasterns and her shoulder.
> 
> It is a fussy complaint on my part but *
> I think her soft tissue issues coupled with demanding work (barrel racing) stem from this over straight front leg.*


Hummm, interesting,..., I am curious to hear more also.
Something does appear 'off'' in the front legs to me also,..., maybe not so shock absorbing??
They do seem very straight, and then the fetlock angle on the fronts seems very sharp, and slightly longer, in comparison to the back legs.


----------



## Starlite

bubba13 said:


>


HAHAHAHAHA....what a bitty. But a very pretty one! I lovvvve her..she reminds me of my first horse. I just love her sassy face here...


----------



## bubba13

WhoaNow, I'm not sure what you mean by sharp and long fetlocks? Are you referring to the angle and length of her pasterns?

I can absolutely buy the conformational predisposition to soft tissue problems--lord knows I've quizzed the vet about a dozen times on the very subject, to his great exasperation....and utter denial. But vets, even good ones, aren't always right about those things. And it would make more sense (and make me feel horribly guilty) if we could tie in the lameness to barrel racing, either through a specific incident or an accumulation of overuse. But again, every time she's come up lame, it's been after pulling her off the pasture. I do think there could be something to the theory that she had minor, subclinical desmitis of the DDFT, acquired during competition, general riding, running around the pasture, or whatever, that was then badly aggravated by the overloading of that leg due to the opposing abscess (and she was, indeed, quite happily galloping on three legs when the right abscess was so painful she couldn't even put the hoof down). If I'd known, I would have kept her up those days until the abscess burst, but then the vet had said to turn her out to help speed the process along, and hindsight IS 20/20.... When the vets at the hospital saw her MRI results, they couldn't say whether the three tears happened at the same time or separately. And they were amazed she was as sound as she was, given the severity of the injury.


----------



## Elana

Front pasterns typically have mnore slope than rear pasterns. 60% of the horse's weight are on the front legs. 

I never let a horse out with an abscess that was 3 legged lame.. especially a hot horse that will gallop 3 legged. I kept the horse stalled or in a small paddock attached to the stall and wrapped or used a Professional's Choice support boot on the loaded leg and a poultice with a LOT of wrapping on the abscess foot. I also soaked the bad foot a LOT. If I could find the soft spot on the soul I would open the abscess and continue with poultices and soaking until there was no puss (I also used some antibiotic mastitis treatment in the hole). Then the horse was shod with a pad on that foot until the sole grew out and there was no hole. If the abscess came out at the coronary band, they the horse was shod with a toe clip and/or side clips and a pad (if Seedy toed) until it all grew out. 

Yes.. letting a horse run around MAY bring the abscess to a head, but it can really make a mess of the loaded leg (including founder). 

Of course, I am not your vet. I am just someone who has kicked around a bit with horses and cattle and I go with what has worked for me. Some of these things are not the latest and the greatest and I was doing this before the use of MRI's on horses (unless they were race horses or valuable horses that could be sent to a university where such things were being tested.. and the expense was beyond real). 

I have handled horses of that caliber but never owned one, so I did what I could do with what I had at the time, which was just under 15 years ago.


----------



## Elana

FWIW here is a link to information regarding this type of injury:

Tendon Injuries


----------



## WhoaNow

bubba13 said:


> WhoaNow, I'm not sure what you mean by sharp and long fetlocks? *
> Are you referring to the angle and length of her pasterns?*
> 
> *I can absolutely buy the conformational predisposition to soft tissue problems--
> lord knows I've quizzed the vet about a dozen times on the very subject, to his great exasperation....and utter denial.
> 
> But vets, even good ones, aren't always right about those things. *
> 
> And it would make more sense (and make me feel horribly guilty) if we could tie in the lameness to barrel racing, either through a specific incident or an accumulation of overuse.
> But again, every time she's come up lame, it's been after pulling her off the pasture.
> *I do think there could be something to the theory that she had minor, subclinical desmitis of the DDFT, *
> acquired during competition, general riding, running around the pasture, or whatever,
> *that was then badly aggravated by the overloading of that leg due to the opposing abscess *
> (and she was, indeed, quite happily galloping on three legs when the right abscess was so painful she couldn't even put the hoof down).
> 
> If I'd known, I would have kept her up those days until the abscess burst, but then the vet had said to turn her out to help speed the process along,
> and hindsight IS 20/20....
> When the vets at the hospital saw her MRI results, they couldn't say whether the three tears happened at the same time or separately.
> And they were amazed she was as sound as she was, given the severity of the injury.


Yes I was also referring to that.



Elana said:


> Front pasterns typically have mnore slope than rear pasterns. 60% of the
> horse's weight are on the front legs.
> 
> I never let a horse out with an abscess that was 3 legged lame.. especially a hot horse that will gallop 3 legged.
> I kept the horse stalled or in a small paddock attached to the stall and wrapped or
> used a Professional's Choice support boot on the loaded leg and a poultice with a LOT of wrapping on the abscess foot.
> I also soaked the bad foot a LOT. If I could find the soft spot on the soul
> I would open the abscess and continue with poultices and soaking until there was no puss
> (I also used some antibiotic mastitis treatment in the hole).
> Then the horse was shod with a pad on that foot until the sole grew out and there was no hole.
> If the abscess came out at the coronary band, they the horse was shod with a toe clip and/or side clips and a pad
> (if Seedy toed) until it all grew out.
> 
> Yes.. letting a horse run around MAY bring the abscess to a head,
> but it can really make a mess of the loaded leg (including founder).
> 
> Of course, I am not your vet. I am just someone who has kicked around
> a bit with horses and cattle and I go with what has worked for me.
> Some of these things are not the latest and the greatest and
> I was doing this before the use of MRI's on horses
> (unless they were race horses or valuable horses that could be sent to a university where such things were being tested..
> and the expense was beyond real).
> 
> I have handled horses of that caliber but never owned one, so I did what I could do with what I had at the time, which was just under 15 years ago.





Elana said:


> FWIW here is a link to information regarding this type of injury:
> 
> Tendon Injuries


Good article.
Bubba, you might want add some of this info to your 'mini thesis' on conformation - Conformation Education - A Basic Illustrated Overview.

Again, good luck with your girl.
She's far too young to be unrideable,.., it's sad:-(


----------



## trailhorserider

Other than how her neck ties into her withers, I think she has lovely conformation.


----------



## equinesalways

Hey Bubba13, I'm really impressed by your new-found maturity level in your recent postings. It looks good on you, so wear it, and don't prove me wrong.


----------



## Katze

bubba13 said:


>


I love her FACE! What a sassy girl!! she has that *You wanna what? imaeatyourfaceNOW" face on LOL


----------



## Rascaholic

I wouldn't say no if you wanted to bring her and her be a pasture puff with Rascal !


----------



## kitten_Val

I'm not great at critique, frankly. I think she has a straightish shoulder. But other than that I like her build. It's sad she has to be retired so young. 

What is 1D BTW?


----------



## bubba13

OK, HoFo isn't letting me quote, so I'll try just putting the names of the people I'm responding to...

*Elana-*

Yep, I agree with all that--you know what they say about retrospect. :roll:

Of course, there was even more to the abscess story, just to let you know how much my life sucked that spring....she'd started out only mildly lame, as most abscesses go, and I'd made an appointment for a couple days out with my vet, as it didn't seem like an emergency. Then wouldn't you know it, but we got hit with 110 mph straight-line winds, which tore up our barn and indirectly killed two of our neighbor's (the vet) horses by blowing turnout sheds on top of them and breaking their legs. The barn was unuseable until we pulled out all the broken doors and shattered glass and got it safety-tested, as many of the boards at the top were splintered and off-kilter. _Meanwhile_, we were really concerned about the horse we had on trial to buy, as he had been in the barn at the time, and another horse, which was dying of cancer and had been given a week to live five months before. Bones was put up in a solitary lot with temporary electric fencing, which she promptly charged through and set about cavorting around the pasture three-legged, no doubt partially inspired by the storm. 2009 was a _really_ bad year.

I'd still love, if you could provide it, an image of what you would consider your ideal knee. I get what you're syaying, yes, but I can't exactly picture the underlying bone/tendon/ligamentous structure that lends itself to either a "correct" or "upright" conformation. Do you have any diagrams?

*trailhorserider-*

Thank you. 
For anyone who points out something specific, if you have a photo of your own ideal, I would be genuinely very interested in seeing it so I can compare.

*equinesalways-*

Well, I'm flattered--but then again, I have not changed in the slightest. :wink:
It's all about perception.....

*kitten_Val*

*I'm* heartbroken that she is retired, but I doubt that she is. Spoiled girl. :roll:

1D is "first division," or the fastest class in barrel racing.
http://www.horseforum.com/barrel-racing/pls-explain-1-d-2-d-89349/


----------



## Katze

In my opinion (and i'm NOT an expert, just my experience from years of seeing, riding horses, and soaking up knowledge from others) the following horse has near perfect confo (if you think im delusional, please point it out lol) 

His name is Aragorn a TB, DOB 2002. Great shoulder and neck on this boy, love the way it ties in, not too much bum either. 

From what I can see, he doesn't seem to have posty hocks or cow hocks (mind you better pics would be a +) His knees are nice and flat, cannon bone doesn't look too long, REALLY well balanced looking boy, bleh I could go on forever. He is an all around eye pleasing horse, with a great color as a bonus. Any of you experts see any flaws?











I would buy him 100% (as long as he was sound and passed the PPE :wink


----------



## bubba13

Undeniably he's a very nice horse. Some might fault him for being "cut out behind the knee," when it comes to the front legs, but you can't find much else to pick at there. But, again, how would you, physiologically or mathematically speaking, define what makes his knees better able to stand up to arduous exercise than the gray's? Or how about his neck set? The dip in front of the withers on the gray that keeps getting comments--is that a lack of muscling, or an actual conformational issue (and if the latter, caused by...what, exactly? can't be bone structure). Her neck ties in high at the base, but the me, that is actually a positive trait (those in some other, non-speed disciplines, however, might disagree).


----------



## Katze

What do you mean by "cut out behind the knee"? And I totally agree with you, depending on the discipline that the horse is used for, conformation should play a part in that. I would use him for dressage, because of the way his neck ties in, his shapely bum, his back isn't too long, clean legs, (he would look great collected) and he is pretty:wink:. 

As for Mrs.Sassy I like the way her neck ties in, her overall confo is pretty nice, she's a wee bit bulky but you don't ride her much due to her injury correct? The way she holds herself, the height of her wither, her legs (in front) seem to look clean and straight, flat kneecaps, her pasturns look good on all four's. Is it the right back leg she has issues with? I would buy her and use her for dressage  (if she was 100% sound of course) All in all a well put together animal.

I think you can "build" a wither to some extent, the rest is all genetic, you need something good to start off with lol. Your gray looks like she has a lack of muscling (dip in front of wither) I don't think it's a conformational problem. If she was as well muscled as the chestnut she would have a similar wither i'm sure. I totally want to write more but I gtg to work >< But let me know if i'm totally off the mark lol!


----------



## Elana

I have a photo in my stuff on the 'puter that I would post but I don't see how to. The photo is on my hard drive of a very nice black horse that is near as perfect as the one posted here. 

I believe that what I am trying to say is that this very nice grey mare is so straight in her front leg (from the photos.. and they are not a replacement for hands on) that she is nearly back at the knee. She is NOT back at the knee.. but so straight in her knee when she lands hard there is just no shock absorption (or ALL the shock absorption is transferred to the tendons and so forth). IOW's there is no shock absorption in the joint itself. No space (and I know about this cuz they took cartilage out of my one knee and with wear and tear there is no space in my knee.. and oh it raises heck with my ankle, hip and back if I land hard on my right leg). Of course my leg is more similar to the rear leg of the horse so I am not sure there is any comparison (other than the lack of shock absorption in that leg). 

Of course, when she had the abscess and all the rest of the world was literally coming apart she could have done damage that weakened things and now you have the tears to deal with.


----------



## kitten_Val

bubba13 said:


> *I'm* heartbroken that she is retired, but I doubt that she is. Spoiled girl. :roll:
> 
> 1D is "first division," or the fastest class in barrel racing.
> http://www.horseforum.com/barrel-racing/pls-explain-1-d-2-d-89349/


Thanks! I've seen people using 1D, 2D, etc. so was guessing (yeah, I know google is our friend :lol: ).

You never know, she may miss the work/rides too. Horses often enjoy the work (although not always I have to say).


----------



## Elana

Here is the photo..... I do not know who this horse is.. but this is a really really good one IMO. I got it looking for a photo to show people hwo to stand a horse for pictures.


----------



## bubba13

I like that black a lot. Not so much his neck, but the rest of him is very nice! Granted, I'm on the computer monitor that stretches every horse out and makes it resemble a dachshund.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

equinesalways said:


> Hey Bubba13, I'm really impressed by your new-found maturity level in your recent postings. It looks good on you, so wear it, and don't prove me wrong.


Who are you again and why exactly does your opinion of Bubba matter or have anything whatsoever to do with this thread?

My only major beef with Bones is those steep long pasterns. I wouldn't be surprised if they helped contribute a little to the injury. She reminds me greatly of Jynx, who's also been referred to as a little sporthorse! Compact, athletic and big movers! I wouldn't think twice before buying a mare like this.


----------



## bubba13

Yiou think her pasterns are long and steep? And up above I've been told they're short and upright! :lol: Girl just can't win!

Tell you what--I'll give her a shot so she'll pass the vet check, and then I'll sell her to ya, and you can take over all her bills....sound fair? :wink:
Maybe it'd be more fair if I paid you to haul her off the property....hmmm....


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

Well upright is what I meant by steep, but I personally find them long only because they're so upright - they're actually right around normal length but if you have such upright pasterns you'd want them shorter for more strength. The gaits are a lot more rough, but they stand up better.

Hehe, I have my own leg injuries to deal with, trying to find a partboarder for Zierra and trying to find a good way to explain "she's had 2 tendon sheath tears, but she's never been lame, honest!"


----------



## Elana

bubba13 said:


> I like that black a lot. Not so much his neck, but the rest of him is very nice! Granted, I'm on the computer monitor that stretches every horse out and makes it resemble a dachshund.


In the photos, the photographer has (properly) set up with the lens opposite the horse's hip. the horse has turned his head slightly (you can see his forehead). Because you are putting a 3D thing on a 2 D surface, you will get shortening of the neck (I was a professional photographer for a few years and I did some photos for the Saratoga Yearling sales). 

This horse is lovely. His withers carry back smoothly into his back and the coupling over the top is smooth and strong. He is very short backed. His bone is good and he has large knees and roomy hocks. 

Amazingly he also appears to be a "True Black" or a melanistic black that does not fade. 

BTW does anyone recognize the brand? It looks like a Danish Brand over the famous running W of the King Ranch! The horse was a stock image on the 'net that was supposed to be a Thoroughbred. His throatlatch and head say he is a Thoroughbred but the brand looks like he has been accepted in anotehr (sport horse?) registry.


----------



## WhoaNow

Quick question?
Why on earth would you refer to your own horse as 'craptacular'??
Seems derogatory to her, and really makes no sense??


----------



## Equilove

WhoaNow said:


> Quick question?
> Why on earth would you refer to your own horse as 'craptacular'??
> Seems derogatory to her, and really makes no sense??


lol? She was using alliteration and being silly.


----------



## WhoaNow

Equilove said:


> lol? She was using alliteration and being silly.


I get the alliteration/repetition part, but I fail to see any humor in "CRAPtacular", or "crippled":-?

JMO


----------



## AlexS

Laugh! I call my horse all kinds of names, it's ok though, last I knew his reading skills were not too hot.


----------



## kitten_Val

WhoaNow said:


> Quick question?
> Why on earth would you refer to your own horse as 'craptacular'??
> Seems derogatory to her, and really makes no sense??


I call my horse a sausage on 4 legs. Is that offensive to her? :lol:


----------



## Equilove

kitten_Val said:


> I call my horse a sausage on 4 legs. Is that offensive to her? :lol:


Not as long as she doesn't find out. As long as you say it behind her back, she's bound to remain clueless ;-)


----------



## trailhorserider

Katze said:


> In my opinion (and i'm NOT an expert, just my experience from years of seeing, riding horses, and soaking up knowledge from others) the following horse has near perfect confo (if you think im delusional, please point it out lol)
> 
> His name is Aragorn a TB, DOB 2002. Great shoulder and neck on this boy, love the way it ties in, not too much bum either.
> 
> From what I can see, he doesn't seem to have posty hocks or cow hocks (mind you better pics would be a +) His knees are nice and flat, cannon bone doesn't look too long, REALLY well balanced looking boy, bleh I could go on forever. He is an all around eye pleasing horse, with a great color as a bonus. Any of you experts see any flaws?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I would buy him 100% (as long as he was sound and passed the PPE :wink


Oh yeah, he's gorgeous! I could never afford a horse so nice. But I do wish there were more of them out there.


----------



## trailhorserider

Elana said:


> Here is the photo..... I do not know who this horse is.. but this is a really really good one IMO. I got it looking for a photo to show people hwo to stand a horse for pictures.


Very pretty, but I wouldn't call him perfect. I think the first (dappled chestnut) looking horse is close to perfect. 

This guy (the black horse) almost looks a tad roach backed to me. It might just be that his back is really short, which normally is good, but there is something about his back I don't really like. Maybe it's just an optical illusion. I know I have taken a lot of photos of my own horses that make them look like they have flaws that they don't really have. His neck/throatlatch area is also a bit thick. 

Gorgeous horse, I just don't know if he is the best of the best.

As far as Quarter Horses go (because I don't have time to look for other breeds right now) I really like the build of Dunbars Gold.

http://www.dunbarsgold.com/


----------



## WhoaNow

Dunbars Gold

What an interesting horse,..., Looks and color!!:thumbsup:


----------



## bubba13

I dunno on the black, still. It's not so much the length of the neck as the angle, muscling, and thickness of the throatlatch that lies below the "perfection" mark for me. And now that I'm on the better monitor, I think I see the mild roach that thr mentioned. Still, undoubtedly, a very very nice horse, and better than 95% of what you see today, but not, to me at least, "perfect."

WhoaNow, it's because I hate my horse and intend to sell her to the knacker at the first opportunity I'm given.


----------



## Katze

bubba13 said:


> WhoaNow, it's because I hate my horse and intend to sell her to the knacker at the first opportunity I'm given.


^ omfg that made me ****, hubby was like "uh huh you iz crazy woman!"
By the way folks thats internet sarcasm, I doubt very much bubba will be calling the knacker anytime soon :lol:


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

If she does send her to the knackers, I'll take a piece of that meat! After everything Bones has put her through financially, that's the highest priced best cared for piece of meat going! :lol: She'd have to sell it at $10 a pound just to begin to recoup her losses!


----------



## bubba13

You're right. I'd never sell her to the knacker. 

As it is, my personal freezer needs fillin'...


----------



## bubba13

MM, you're grossly underestimating her weight now that missy's out of shape and flabby. At a $1 a pound, I'd easily break even...


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

Sorry, I'm a farmgirl, I was calculating based on estimated actual meat weight minus the bones. Hehehehe, minus the Bones. I crack myself up. :rofl:


----------



## bubba13

Well, high fat content and marbling means more $$$$, right? No lean meat here...


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

Good point! Better heal fast Bones, your days may be numbered! I'm sure her cute and fuzzy personality will save her. :lol:


----------



## bubba13

Darling.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

She's like a rabid teddy bear, hehehehehe.


----------



## bubba13

I'm starting to wonder if Ol' Gray didn't learn to read after all, and is following this thread. I just went out to take her grazing muzzle off--I called her name, and she started sauntering toward me. I walked up to meet her halfway, and suddenly she jumped, spooked, and bolted about 20 feet off, acting like I was about to kill her. Oops. Sorry, girl, I didn't mean all of it....so long as your legs hold together for light riding, you're golden....but next bobble, I dunno....gotta earn your keep somehow, under saddle or on the table....


----------



## Elana

The Black's back is not roached... it is actually the strongest sort of conformation (Dr. Deb Benett). As to the throatlatch area.. in Thoroughbreds who race that is fairly desirable as it is thought to give the horse more airway passage. That being said, I believe we are splitting hairs.... as I do not imagine most would turn away the Chestnut, the Black or Bubba's grey. 

After looking at the pasture pictures you would probably have a fight on your hand at the knackers but it might be worth it as I read somewhere that horse meat is a cholesterol free red meat.


----------



## Speed Racer

AlexS said:


> Laugh! I call my horse all kinds of names, it's ok though, last I knew his reading skills were not too hot.


:clap::clap::clap:


----------



## AlexS

Bubba, you are forgetting to add more value due to her pretty kolor!


----------



## bubba13

Extra-special, since most mornings when she wakes up, after sleeping in her own crap, she's a tobiano....


----------



## Elana

Paints often bring more money........
....and the color can hide any faults.

Load her up on bute, let her adorn herself and be a paint, then send her to the local sales barn.... 

On a more serious note, have you considered breeding her? I know I would be.. but I am nutz (I hide behind the computer screen here at the asylum so no one knows... meanwhile the staff keeps saying how well I am 'adjusting.' Oh wait... this ISN'T an asylum after all.. those are my CO WORKERS... LOL)


----------



## bubba13

Breeding.....no. I'd like to, in an ideal world, raise my own little Bonesy baby...but that reality strikes. First off, how do I know that she _wasn't_ genetically predisposed to her injury, and thus in danger of passing it on? Choosing a "perfect" stallion might help to avoid that problem, but is the risk worth it? Then, the timing is just bad. I'm not exactly at a point in my life when I have the time required to raise and properly train a foal. And realistically, as it repeated ad nauseum on all these forums, I really could buy a comparable quality prospect for the price of putting one on the ground myself.


----------



## Elana

Well, that is all true but I disagree with her injury.. I think there is little in that which I would call genetically predisposed considering the soap out there that IS genetically predisposed and IS bred.. but I digress...

She is a good mare.. and in a lot of respects worth looking at for breeding. 

However, I certainly understand the time and the timing. Most stuff in my life has gone down on a schedule I never agreed to! Still does. LOL

Another thought, if you can find anyone interested, would be to lease her to breed. Again, not without risk and you have to find the right people. 

Just ideas. No need to take it serious.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

It's sad when you think of it, because although Bones is far from a perfect specimen, she has more a right to reproduce in terms of good conformation and a proven show record for speed and agility then 75% of the people out there breeding. 

Bones is kind of a perfect example of my opinion of perfectly acceptable "backyard" breeding. She has a responsible owner who knows the risks, knows how to be prepared and knows how to make the right decisions. Understandable why you wouldn't, but I don't think anyone could fault you for doing so. An injury like that is so commonplace in a way and I honestly don't believe this horse has any conformation fault even close to severe enough to cause an injury like that. Less then perfect conformation may not be helping it to heal properly, but to be the cause, I really don't think so.


----------



## Elana

Actually, from starting in with breeding dogs, there are 3 kinds of breeders. 

1.) Commercial breeders (who may or may not be responsible breeders.. on the low end is the Puppy Mill and at the high end is the large kennel producing puppies from health tested parents or titled for a purpose be it showing or service dog with some well bred pet dogs coming out of the mix).

2.) Back Yard Breeders that bring any two dogs together to make puppies to sell for money and in this area I include Designer dogs (the doodles). Littloe or no health testing is done and the dogs are "champion lines" not titled parents at all. You see the ads for these breeders in the classifieds all the time. 

3.) Responsible Hobby Breeder is the person who has titled dogs that are Health tested. They research pedigrees and spend money on good titled studs. They usually own a female and do not own a stud they breed to. They lose money breeding but breed to improve the breed. 

It is much the same in horse breeding. There will be commercial breeders who may be very good or not.. ranging from Three Chimneys Farm in KY at the hight end to someone who keeps a stud out with a bunch of mares at the low end.

There are Back Yard breeders who just want to breed their mare and see what happens (and it usually is not stellar) and then there are hobby breeders who really do care about the outcome of the breeding. 

I used to be the latter... bred my Thoroughbred Mare (hunter lines) to a Hannoverian. Was told "Oh you won't get a very good one on the FIRST breeding.." Well I studied stallions and their get and I had a good mare and I bred her to a stallion who had 16 sons standing in Germany. The resulting foal went to the Oldenburg test and was 5th out of 22 foals and was given Premium foal status and was branded Oldenburg. 

Later on in life she was started in FEI Dressage. She was eventually sold to someone and shipped cross the US and then sold again to some people who would not give me updates on her (which bothers me to this day). 

I suspect Bubba13 would be that sort of breeder.. responsible hobby breeder. Knowing full well the responsibility, risks and the costs. In fact, that is exactly why she is not breeding Bones. 

BTW the responsible hobby breeder never makes money.. I never did and now I am starting up with dogs.. and I can tell you that I am saving money for the breeding, the testing, and the vet bills if anything goes wrong at whelping. And it is two years off yet!


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

Bravo Elana, I agree 110%!

My best friend started out as a backyard breeder with a Welsh stud, and a bunch of mixed mares. They were over ran with bratty little pony foals before they knew it. However, they kept them all except the occasional one a neighbor friend might insist on having (and still have). When I met her, they were all 2-3 years old and I helped her finish up their training and we sold them off - none of them went for under $1,000. Mongrol or not, they were beauitfully built little ponies with great temperaments.

I would definitely say she turned herself into a bit of a hobby breeder - she knows where every last one of those foals is, all of them have made it to adulthood and all of them have good homes with people who loves them. Some doing 4H, some doing pony club, one is even doing team penning! There's no way she made money on them, but she realized quickly the error of her ways and dedicated herself to ensuring they all had good homes and good training on them to help them through life.

And she's completely out of the breeding business now, sold the stud a good 5 years ago and hasn't raised a foal since then! Considered breeding her barrel mare who raised 2 fine colts (one in pony club, one team penning) to the local barrel champion but realized she's pretty much done raising babies and would rather grab them as wild untouched 2 year olds!


----------



## Elana

I just was fiddling around and found out who that black horse is. He is Lonhro, and Australian Thoroughbred who is a racing champion and is fast becoming a leading sire. 

Here is more about him:
Lonhro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and here is his pedigree:
Lonhro Horse Pedigree

I have his photo up on my 'puter for a screen saver... and he is, IMO, about as perfect conformation as you are going to get. He won 26 races out of 35 starts. He really is a great horse.


----------



## bubba13

See, I like a racehorse that looks like that, as opposed to those weedy, twig-legged things you see so often...


----------



## Elana

Now if we could just ship Bones to Aussie land and have her turned out in the paddock with that boy! 

I very very much agree.. this horse is a "horseman's horse." If you look at the photos of the great ones.. Man O War, Secretariat, War Admiral etc. you will see horses of substance. The really good ones do not look like claimers. And claimers look.. well.. like claimers. 

When I go to the track (and I am going to Saratoga this Friday), I can usually pick the winner in the post parade for the claiming and lower class races. As the horses move up in class it is much harder to do that. Graded stakes races I can pick the loser but not the winner. Usually can get the first four.. but not in order.. so I don't win money. Boxing four is expensive... (I will box 3 sometimes).

Anyway, I really like a good horse and Lonhro could come and live at my house anytime.


----------



## bubba13

But that's just it. Now, I don't follow mainstream racing in the slightest...but you're getting your Barbaros, and your Eight Belles, and your Big Browns nowadays...



















These horses are built for speed, and are winners, but they aren't built to last....


----------



## Elana

I started out horses following and learning about the Thoroughbred. I still can look at a pedigree and get a good idea of what that horse is even tho I do not know the modern studs. 

Remember too, that both these photos you have here are of young horses. The upper photo appears to be a yearling (a hammer headed yearling at that). If you look at his front end it is realy very good and he has roomy hocks.. but this baby needs to frow and, if he is going to a yearling sale he needs some weight (fat hides things... on ppl too!!). If the horse is racing at the time of this photo it appears he is being 'brought up." 

The lower photo is of a horse in racing form.. and while fat and letting down won't change his steep croup (which may be steeper due to the water being cool) or his set back somewhat straight hind leg (this started to become a Thoroughbred conformation trend when I was a teenager.. it seems to have carried forward). 

Scretariat was a horsemans horse and his racing photos show him leggy. His breeding farm photos he is too fat (but note he has the same throatlatch as our black horse, Lonhro and the same throatlatchon Man O War.. so there may be some truth to the airway passage theory).


----------



## bubba13

Yes, the horses I posted are built overall quite well--built to fly--and they were champions. Yet, if you look at the first one, or if I did and knew nothing about it, say being asked to give a conformation critique for a potential purchase....I might just hone in on front legs and question their strength. Yes, it's a young horse, but still the bones are long, lanky, and fine, and the pasterns seem somewhat weaker than I'd like. The first horse is Eight Belles.

The second horse is Big Brown. Unless it's his coloration, or an optical illusion, you can see the glue holding his front feet together....


----------



## Elana

Oh yes... Feet on the Thoroughbred are an issue. I used to shoe my own horses and then I got Holly (Angela's Holiday by Roman Lighting out of Lucky Angela). Thin hoof walls and flatish soles. Not all thoroughbreds have the flat soles, but she was really hunter jumper breeding (tho I used her on cattle and trained her in dressage.. sent her out for hunter training and after 30 days they sent her home as she just was not interested in jumping.. she did it but...). 

When someone is looking at a Thoroughbred to buy or to breed, I tell them to really pay attention to the feet and especially to the quality and thickness of the hoof walls. THINK what you are going to be doing with the horse and THINK about those feet. If you are breeding Thoroughbred to draft or warm blood, the feet will likely improve. If you are looking for a Grand Prix jumper, you better know there is some hoof wall there and the feet can tolerate that sort of impact (not that racing is without impact!!). 

That being said, when racing they wear Aluminum Racing plates that come off and are replaced by steel training plates after they race. So there is a lot of shoe changes that go on, which can be an issue to their feet as well. 

Here is an interesting link... with lots of conformation shots of various stallions..
Stallions - Ad Valorem

Some of these were big time winners and it is interesting to look at them. Some seem not built for speed and yet they did it.. but there is more to a race horse than speed.. there is heart and training and (often) something you cannot measure. Which is why it is what it is...


----------



## bubba13

I keep forgetting to post this guy.










It is very, very hard to find a conformation flaw on his body. That's the sort of stallion who deserves to be a stallion. Pity he didn't have different owners--he could have really been something, shown well, and had some really nice babies. As it was he barely got broke as a youngster, was never handled, and was given away...


----------



## WhoaNow

Elana said:


> I started out horses following and learning about the Thoroughbred.
> I still can look at a pedigree and get a good idea of what that horse is even tho I do not know the modern studs.
> 
> Remember too, that both these photos you have here are of young horses.
> The upper photo appears to be a yearling (a hammer headed yearling at that).
> If you look at his front end it is realy very good and he has roomy hocks.. but this baby needs to frow and,
> if he is going to a yearling sale he needs some weight (fat hides things... on ppl too!!).
> If the horse is racing at the time of this photo it appears he is being 'brought up."
> 
> The lower photo is of a horse in racing form.. and while fat and letting down won't change his steep croup (which may be steeper due to the water being cool) or his set back somewhat straight hind leg (this started to become a Thoroughbred conformation trend when I was a teenager.. it seems to have carried forward).
> 
> Scretariat was a horsemans horse and his racing photos show him leggy. His breeding farm photos he is too fat (but note he has the same throatlatch as our black horse, Lonhro
> and the same throatlatchon Man O War.. so there may be some truth to the airway passage theory).


I also had read somewhere that Secretariet's heart was roughly 1/3 larger than the normal horse heart.
It was believed that part of his ability to run, and win, at such distances, had to do with his ability to pump blood more efficiently*.

"Death*

In the fall of 1989, Secretariat was afflicted with laminitis, a painful and often incurable hoof condition. 
When his condition failed to improve after a month of treatment, 
he was euthanized on October 4 at the age of 19.[14] 
Popular both as a Triple Crown champion and in retirement, Secretariat was mourned by millions and buried at Claiborne Farm in Paris, Kentucky, 
given the rare honor of being buried whole; usually only the head, heart, and hooves of a winning race horse are buried, 
and the rest of the body is cremated.[15]

A necropsy revealed that his heart was significantly larger than that of an ordinary horse.[16] 
An extremely large heart is a trait that occasionally occurs in Thoroughbreds, linked to a genetic condition passed down via the dam line, 
known as the "x-factor."[13][17][18][19] 
The x-factor can be traced to the historic racehorse Eclipse, 
who was necropsied after his death in 1789. 
Because Eclipse's heart appeared to be much larger than other horses, it was weighed, and found to be 14 pounds (6.4 kg), 
over twice the normal weight. 
It is believed Eclipse passed the trait on via his daughters, and pedigree research 
verified that Secretariat traces in his dam line to a daughter of Eclipse.[16] In the 20th century, 
the heart of Phar Lap was weighed and also documented to be 6.35 kilograms (14.0 lb),[20] or essentially the same size as that of Eclipse.

At the time of Secretariat's death, the veterinarian who performed the necropsy, 
Dr. Thomas Swerczek, head pathologist at the University of Kentucky, 
did not weigh Secretariat's heart, but stated, "We just stood there in stunned silence. 
We couldn’t believe it. The heart was perfect. 
There were no problems with it. It was just this huge engine."[14] 
Later, Swerczek also performed a necropsy on Sham, who died in 1993. Swerczek did weigh Sham's heart, 
and it was 18 pounds (8.2 kg). 

Based on Sham's measurement, and having necropsied both horses, 
he estimated that Secretariat's heart probably weighed 22 pounds 
(10.0 kg),[16] or about two-and-a-half times as large as that of the average horse".


----------



## bubbleslove

bubba13 said:


> I keep forgetting to post this guy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is very, very hard to find a conformation flaw on his body. That's the sort of stallion who deserves to be a stallion. Pity he didn't have different owners--he could have really been something, shown well, and had some really nice babies. As it was he barely got broke as a youngster, was never handled, and was given away...


I SO wish there was so way to have gotten him, freakin loved that horse, and I still can't believe he's 17-ish in that pic. I truly hope his new owners do *something* with him, what potential...


----------



## bubba13

They aren't. He's turned out with a big herd of Quarter Horse stallions. They mentioned they might breed him, but I bet they don't. He'll probably go on to get the same minimums of care he was getting before, which admittedly, never seemed to hurt him any in the past....

See the photo above? His feet had not been trimmed in at least two, probably more like three plus plus plus years. And they really didn't need it.

I actually think that _he_ would have crossed well on Bones....


----------



## Elana

I do not know the horse you posted. Who is he and what is his breeding? There are things I do not like so much about him as a stallion (wish he had roomier hocks and a shorter back). As an individual his ankles are puffy which is a bit odd since he has not had much done to him. I do agree that for untrimmed feet his are very very good (and that means way more than most folks would give credit). 

He looks like an appy cross? An Appy? Would not mind knowing more about him.


----------



## bubba13

Bbf Magic Libra Appaloosa





 
Not exactly the world's best mover, but I wonder how he could have come along under saddle with training....


----------



## NdAppy

Always liked him Bubba.


----------



## Katze

Good looking horse, i'm surprised his feet are in such good condition. Too bad he was left to his own devices for so long. I would have loved to see how far he could go if he competed.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj

Honestly, he looks like a great mover, whoever made that video should be shot. It's pretty difficult to take a horse that good looking and make him look that bad, but they did it with flying colors! Just that tiny ridiculous circle with stirrups flying and lines all over the place, of COURSE he's not going to look half as good as he is. I liked the pasture movement shots, until they spent half a minute filming him trotting the fence line at an awkward angle.

Some people shouldn't be allowed to ever own a camera.


----------



## WhoaNow

Honestly the video makes that horse look like a 'rough' mover:?.
He may be ok in a still shot, but a picture doesn't tell one thing about attitude, intelligence, or trainability.
Perhaps he was given away repeatedly because he wasn't trainable, or very easy to work with??
He's nice enough looking,..., but he's not knocking my socks off.


----------



## bubbleslove

Actually I don't think he was 'given away repeatedly'. From what I recall he'd been with the same owner for the majority (if not the entirety) of his life, and was only being rehomed as a result of that owner's death. Bubba had an extremely short time to rehome a large amount of horses, most being in pretty rough shape. It's too bad she didn't have more time to work with him, maybe he could have been made into something much more useful than a pasture stud.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bubba13

He wasn't given away repeatedly. He was only given away once, after his owner/breeder died. He did have a good attitude and temperament, and passed that on to his foals (and well as superior conformation), but being turned out alone for 10 years in a pasture with minimal handling, and almost no breeding or other horse interaction, will tend to make a stud a bit nuts. When I pulled him up to assess he was pretty wild-eyed and squealy at the mares in the next pasture--he thought he was going to rear up and charge to get them, but I made it pretty clear that that behavior, as well as kicking out in frustration, was not gonna fly. I worked him on the ground a bit and then did indeed climb aboard. He did not attempt to buck or bolt, but I could tell he was extremely green, and the fact that he had not been ridden in 13 years really showed. The mares were literally 10 feet away across a flimsy wooden fence, and calling to him, and his mind was far more on them than me, so we called a few little turns and a lap around the arena good. He would have required more time and money (for one, he was in desperate need of a tooth float, as he'd never had that done and in fact still had his wolf teeth) than anyone was willing to put out. Had I had room for another horse, I would have gotten him, gelded him, and finished his riding training.

After that initial session, though I never saddled or rode him again, he was far more agreeable on the ground, actually approaching me in the field for a treat or to be petted.

He was not a rough mover, nor was he a spectacular mover. He was what I would call a "working mover." If you watch him coming up the fence, you can see him winging his frong legs out. That's what I was referring to.

Edit: Aaaaand bubbles beats me by a lot, again. I take too long writing posts!


----------



## WhoaNow

bubbleslove said:


> It's too bad she didn't have more time to work with him, *
> maybe* he could have been made into something *much* *more useful than a pasture stud*.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe:??? An unused 'pasture stud' with very limited training, isn't much use at all.
He is still rather 'coarse' looking to me.
I don't care for his movement, and I'm not that crazy about his looks.
He has decent body confo,, and definitely has substance, strong & solid boned legs,..,
but I don't like his head and neck.

He looks coarse to me, not refined (at all).
And limited training, could well mean many things,..., difficult, etc.


----------



## bubba13

And since when is "refined" the be-all and end-all of equine quality? Last time I checked, Appaloosas were actually known to _not_ be refined....a hallmark of their heritage that has nothing to do with their usefulness. Not everyone breeds for "pretty." Soundness, trainability, and athleticism go much, much further in my book. You especially don't ride a head, and there's nothing so horrendously wrong with his neck that would interfere with the disciplines he was bred for (particularly since some of the muscling could be addressed with proper riding/training). Not every horse needs to move (or should move) in a high-stepping, floaty way. That's good for show and flash but not so good for actual using horses.

As I recall, he was only bred six times, and all of his offspring that I saw were very nicely conformed with good minds and good trainability. Unfortunately, they were in the same ownership situation, so aside from basic breaking most of them never got much riding, and they were allowed to get so obese that it really affected their movement and soundness. The one son, my favorite, was purchased by the same people who took the stallion. They started him at first to be a Civil War reenactment horse, and he was already in his first battle (and did quite well, by all accounts). Now, instead, though, they say that he's too nice for that sort of work, and they're pushing him to start USEF showjumping. He's quite a nice horse--again, with time and room, I would have taken him, too, and done dressage and jumping!


----------



## MsBHavin

bubba13 said:


> Bbf Magic Libra Appaloosa
> 
> SOLD: BBF Magic Libra - YouTube
> 
> Not exactly the world's best mover, but I wonder how he could have come along under saddle with training....


Nice to see a stallion being trained with out a bunch of chains and tie downs on him! pretty boy!


----------



## WhoaNow

bubba13 said:


> And since when is "refined" the be-all and end-all of equine quality?
> *
> Last time I checked, Appaloosas were actually known to not be refined....a hallmark of their heritage that has nothing to do with their usefulness. *
> Not everyone breeds for "pretty."
> Soundness, trainability, and athleticism go much, much further in my book.
> 
> *You especially don't ride a head, and there's nothing so horrendously wrong with his neck that would interfere with the disciplines he was bred for (particularly since some of the muscling could be addressed with proper riding/training).
> 
> *Not every horse needs to move (or should move) in a high-stepping, floaty way.
> *That's good for show and flash but not so good for actual using horses.
> *
> As I recall, he was only bred six times, and all of his offspring that I saw were very nicely conformed with good minds and good trainability. Unfortunately, they were in the same ownership situation,
> so aside from basic breaking most of them never got much riding,
> and they were allowed to get so obese that it really affected their movement and soundness.
> The one son, my favorite, was purchased by the same people who took the stallion.
> They started him at first to be a Civil War reenactment horse, and he was already in his first battle (and did quite well, by all accounts).
> Now, instead, though, they say that he's too nice for that sort of work, and they're pushing him to start USEF showjumping.
> He's quite a nice horse--again, with time and room,
> I would have taken him, too, and done dressage and jumping!


Anyone considering breeding a stallion should 'prove' them with some kind of show record.
They can claim anything, the proof is in the pudding, RIGHT?

This guy has been a 'pasture stud',.., COMPLETELY UNPROVEN, other than your opinion.

My opinion, he's coarse and unrefined,..., 
I'm not impressed!
And given that he's had NO actual use beyond standing in a pasture, 
how well can anyone say that he held up well under USE??
According to you, he hasn't actually done *anything* to prove that statement.

I don't have to like him because you do,..., and I've stated WHY I don't like him.
He's unproven, unused, basically his whole life, and coarse looking.
I complimented his legs, and he is proportioned well in 1/3rds.
Other than that, I'm not seeing, or hearing, it.

He isn't your stallion, so it shouldn't bother you, so personally, 
what I think of him??:?


----------



## iridehorses

WhoaNow said:


> Anyone considering breeding a stallion should 'prove' them with some kind of show record.
> They can claim anything, the proof is in the pudding, RIGHT?


Wrong. Not everyone who owns a stud needs to show - not everyone even likes to show. If I had a nicely conformed stallion that had the temperament I liked, and I found to be very useful working cows or even trail riding, I might breed him under the right circumstances. I haven't shown in over 30 years and I don't miss it one bit. That certainly doesn't mean that I couldn't own a stud that would make a wonderful breeding animal.

The rest of your post was your opinion and nothing more.


----------



## WhoaNow

iridehorses said:


> Wrong. Not everyone who owns a stud needs to show - not everyone even likes to show.
> If I had a nicely conformed stallion that had the temperament I liked,
> and I found to be very useful working cows or even trail riding,
> I might breed him under the right circumstances. I haven't shown in over 30 years and I don't miss it one bit.
> That certainly doesn't mean that I couldn't own a stud that would make a wonderful breeding animal.
> *
> The rest of your post was your opinion and nothing more*.


I believe I'm entitled to have an opinion here.
This forum, much like EVERY other horse forum, is full of people with their opinions.

And since I don't actually EVER have ANY intentions of owning, 
nor breeding, nor showing a stallion,
Its really inconsequential to me personally,....,

But, the 'rumor mill' has pounded into my head, as well a few others (heads) 
that if you choose to own a stallion, that it should be 'proven'.

I look for certain 'specifics' when I horse shop, and a part of it is lineage.
I happen to be a QH fan, and an 'Investor' fan, because I find those horses to have a great 'work ethic' and are highly trainable, and GENTLE.


----------



## iridehorses

WhoaNow said:


> *I believe I'm entitled to have an opinion here.*
> This forum, much like EVERY other horse forum, is full of people with their opinions.
> 
> And since I don't actually EVER have ANY intentions of owning,
> nor breeding, nor showing a stallion,
> Its really inconsequential to me personally,....,


Of course - and it's just that that, there was no point in discussing it.


----------



## bubba13

When did I ever say I was offended by your opinion? Your ideas of "ideal" conformation are, well, let's just say not exactly supported by the majority of educated, experienced horsepeople, but of course you can believe--and say--whatever you want. Nor did I say that I justified breeding this stallion, save for the fact, in this case, he did actually prove himself through his production. Test breedings and the like are not something I approve of, but in this case, luckily, it all worked out for the best, with all foals being ahead of the curve in general horse quality and useability.

There are plenty of ways to prove a stallion, and the show ring is not the only (nor the best, nor the most accurate) means of doing so. I do think studs should be broke to ride, trained in some sort of discipline, and taken to some sort of level for outside opinions and assessment, whatever that may entail. They must show good conformation, athleticism, temperament, and above all, soundness. They must produce well, or else it doesn't matter the quality of the individual. Now, in Libra's case, it's too late to know the woulda coulda shouldas. This is not the way _I_ would go about breeding a stallion. But then again, his owners had been breeding for 40 years, and producing great foal crops--there wasn't a bad horse on the place; they'd just fallen into a bad situation in the latter years and never got a chance to live up to their potential. I'm not condoning what they did. But they produced good horses. Anyone who disagrees with _that_ is simply a poor judge of horseflesh.


----------



## QH Gunner

I have a stallion I don't show, he works on the farm here, he can do barrels, he's an amazing trail horse, pastures with geldings, only acts like a stud when a chain is over his nose (breeding time), cuts cattle here for us when we needa separate em, ride likes a dream, easy keeper... I have one of his babies, built like a bull, amazingly gentle, handles well... Not spooky.. & the people who had this horse before me said all of his babies were like that. I ride him in a bosal or a full cheek snaffle, my non riding bf can ride him. He's only 5, so if I do decide to show him I could- which would most likely be just fun shows (barrels, poles & such) bc I play with him doing that all the time. Would I breed him? If I came across a match I want, absolutely. I've had two people I know ask to breed to him in the spring. Will I geld him? Probably not, I see no reason too. He an absolute gentlemen. I ow most ppl on this site disagree with that, but what we have works for us. He's my big babi & I've always ha a soft heart for studs. 
Btw, I have a gray mare bubba... && she's got attitude just like yours, I love her though, she makes me laugh  
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Elana

Personally I am not hugely impressed by Bubba's Appy Stud. That being said, there is no rule we must agree. Watching the video he does not travel straight in front (paddles). He has puffy ankles for whatever reason. All that being said, I will also say he is a useful sort of horse that might not be great in the show ring. That would not preclude himfrom being a stud when crossed with the right sort of mare (like Bones). 

The business of breeding to proven stallions for things other than racing is a relatively recent phenomena. A LOT of ranches bred their own. Some bred selectively and others not so much. It is out of this that the Quarterhorse came.. and there was some Spanish Barb in there from feral horses. 

A good horse is a good horse. You can see it or not. In the case of the Appy Stud I can see he is a good horse. 

In more modern times the economy has a great impact on the business of horses. We no longer (typically) use horses for meaningful work. The first time I saw ATV's rounding up cattle I felt the useful horse was hitting the skids and I was sad. I see good horses going for free or close to it simply because they are plain looking (no chrome, chestnut, mares.. for instance). 

That being said, a good horse is STILL a good horse and that is not always determined by the show ring.


----------



## bubba13

I forgot to address the puffy ankles thing earlier. It's really not "puff," as in swelling. That's actually his native conformation. (Edit: Some of the roundness on the front--it wasn't soft, though I wonder if it shows some irritation from always running the fence line. The rest of the joint's largeness, I believe, was due simply to having "big bones.")
There were a lot on that farm that way. Not too sure what was up with that, but it didn't seem to affect their flexibility or soundness. I think that picture also makes it look more exaggerated than it actually was. This one is unflattering for his neck, but perhaps shows a better view of his legs in motion:










One of his sons:



















Another son (here's the gross obesity I was talking about):










Two daughters:


----------



## Elana

I see what you mean. One thing I can say is that the breeder has their own "look" and not every breeder is good enough to get that. IOW's they all have the same over all useful look.. and yup.. the same sort of fetlock joints. 

Very much a "type" of horse and very much a signature on each which is not a bad thing. 

You are correct on the obesity.. looks like they are getting a Double Size Happy Meal 3X a day and then spending the rest of their time on their X Box! LOL.


----------



## Faceman

WhoaNow said:


> I believe I'm entitled to have an opinion here.
> This forum, much like EVERY other horse forum, is full of people with their opinions.
> 
> And since I don't actually EVER have ANY intentions of owning,
> nor breeding, nor showing a stallion,
> Its really inconsequential to me personally,....,
> 
> But, the 'rumor mill' has pounded into my head, as well a few others (heads)
> that if you choose to own a stallion, that it should be 'proven'.
> 
> I look for certain 'specifics' when I horse shop, and a part of it is lineage.
> I happen to be a QH fan, and an 'Investor' fan, because I find those horses to have a great 'work ethic' and are highly trainable, and GENTLE.


Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion - you included. Buyt you don't know anything about Appys, so your opinion - good or bad - has no foundation of expertise or experience. Heck, by your own admission you are a QH person. Appys are not supposed to be refined.

As to the breeding, again by your own admission you have not and will hnot own a stallion - again your opinion is not based upon experience or expertise.

As to the "rumor mill", I'm glad you mention where you obtain your "expertse". Every once in a while you do run across a rumor that holds water.

However, thanks for providing the input - it encouraged Bubba to post pictures of his get. Oh, and by the way, get are the truest measure of a stallion...and that's not a rumor...:lol:


----------



## trailhorserider

Wholly cow. And I thought my guys were fat! I'm not so sure I don't like the looks of the first son better than the father actually. 

First daughter shown is very butt high, not one of my favorite conformation faults. It always feels like you are riding down hill.


----------



## bubba13

Well, ****** #1 produced three foals of his own before being gelded.

The two leopards were full siblings out of a half-Percheron PMU mare. The roan was out of an ApHC mare with less-that-stellar conformation.


----------



## MsBHavin

What color would the second guy qualify as, Bubba?


----------



## bubba13

I'm thinking he was probably a sunbleached brown, or else bay. Or do you mean of the first set of horses? The two "whites" are fewspot browns.

Interestingly, and too bad you can't see it in the picture, but the first leopard had one palomino/yellow spot on her shoulder. Looked like a urine stain that wouldn't go away. Don't know what was up with that.


----------



## MsBHavin

bubba13 said:


>



This guy, his legs are dark spots and his body looks like he's got two different colored spots. I'm horrible at colors so I was wondering what he'd classify as?


----------



## trailhorserider

He's probably a bay leopard. The spot pattern is so unusual, I have only seen that kind of weird leopard pattern in mules. Very cool! 

All three look very nice. I think the first leopard is my favorite though.


----------



## bubba13

Oh. Well that there crap is the Lp at play, I'd say. It does funky things to the base color. I think some people call horses like that "peacock leopards" due to the multicolored spots. Genetically, I'd bet on him just being a plain Jane brown or bay for base color, but as for how the pattern is affecting it...you'd have to ask Faceman or an Appaloosa expert.

If you look, though, you can see that the leg spots are dark, as they should be on a brown, while the "points" are lighter and more fawn (in the flank/rump/nose/eye area, again like a regular brown). And all of the body spots appear to be the same shade, though some are more roan than others, making them appear lighter.

That doesn't negate the weird things Lp does, though. Someone on another message board has pictures of a genetic grulla Appaloosa mare that looks like a chestnut, her base color is so skewed by the App genes.


----------



## NdAppy

This is the one you are thinking of correct bubba?









 http://www.designsporthorse.com/Ava%20Photos%202010%20to%202008.htm


----------



## MsBHavin

Very cool! Thanks for the info


----------



## bubba13

Yep! Look at her foal photo:


----------



## NdAppy

Amazing what LP does to a horse's color. Part of the reason I really, really don't like guessing on appies. :?


----------



## tinyliny

Totally off topic (don't sue me, ok?) but the horse in this picture has the bridle on wrong. The drop nose band should not go over the rings of the bit.


----------



## bubba13

Shore does. Wonder if they did that on purpose, with the intention of some form of convulted "training?"


----------



## Elana

Very interesting.. but again, I like the prepotency and the over all type that they have. 

Too bad I am currently not in a position to own a horse.. it is a buyer's market and there is some good stuff out there (_currently_.. means I ain't dead yet and ain't givin' up yet.. and am still crazy enough to train a young one from scratch). 

When the day comes and I 'accept' that I won't have a horse again I figure I will probably be pushing up posies.


----------



## Faceman

bubba13 said:


> Well that there crap is the Lp at play, I'd say. It does funky things to the base color. I think some people call horses like that "peacock leopards" due to the multicolored spots. Genetically, I'd bet on him just being a plain Jane brown or bay for base color, but as for how the pattern is affecting it...
> 
> If you look, though, you can see that the leg spots are dark, as they should be on a brown, while the "points" are lighter and more fawn (in the flank/rump/nose/eye area, again like a regular brown). And all of the body spots appear to be the same shade, though some are more roan than others, making them appear lighter.


It's not horribly unusual to see dark spots on the legs like that in a bay - just reflects the base color of a bay's legs. It isn't the "norm" though, if there is such a thing in Appys. The norm is the bay mane, tail, and points turn brown, with a few black hairs intermixed, and then whiten out.

Here is Rambo as a yearling (on the right)...notice the black mane, typical of a bay...









Then here he is a year later when he had his corneal ulcer...notice how the mane has changed from black to brown. From a distance where you couldn't see the black hairs intermixed, you would not even know he was a bay...









I don't have a picture of him now - I sold him a couple of years ago, but his mane and tail are mostly white now, typical of Appys, and his dark legs have lightened as well as mottling out.

Anyway, that is the "norm", but some Appy bays hold their black longer, and I suspect that's all the dark spots on the legs are.

As for the different shades of spots, that is pretty common. Many of them will have some darker shaded spots and some lighter shaded spots. I don't really know why - usually it doesn't have anything to do with the "roaning" - they are just a different shade...same color, but just lighter or darker. I don't know anything about Paints, so don't know if the different shaded spots is an Appy thing or if Paints exhibit that too.

And speaking of Paints, don't forget many Appy lines have Paint in them, which complicates things even more...


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

kitten_Val said:


> I call my horse a sausage on 4 legs. Is that offensive to her? :lol:


You know I have alot of people who say Dusty is ugly or he looks like a mule and they'll say this in front of him I swear I see his face drop he'll look at me and I'll rub his face and tell him how they dont know anything because he's so handsome.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

bubba13 said:


> Yes, the horses I posted are built overall quite well--built to fly--and they were champions. Yet, if you look at the first one, or if I did and knew nothing about it, say being asked to give a conformation critique for a potential purchase....I might just hone in on front legs and question their strength. Yes, it's a young horse, but still the bones are long, lanky, and fine, and the pasterns seem somewhat weaker than I'd like. The first horse is Eight Belles.
> 
> The second horse is Big Brown. Unless it's his coloration, or an optical illusion, you can see the glue holding his front feet together....


Big Brown imo was a train wreck as far as feet go its sad that they felt breeding him was a good idea..passing on those crappy feet.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

WhoaNow said:


> I believe I'm entitled to have an opinion here.
> This forum, much like EVERY other horse forum, is full of people with their opinions.
> 
> And since I don't actually EVER have ANY intentions of owning,
> nor breeding, nor showing a stallion,
> Its really inconsequential to me personally,....,
> 
> But, the 'rumor mill' has pounded into my head, as well a few others (heads)
> that if you choose to own a stallion, that it should be 'proven'.
> 
> I look for certain 'specifics' when I horse shop, and a part of it is lineage.
> I happen to be a QH fan, and an 'Investor' fan, because I find those horses to have a great 'work ethic' and are highly trainable, and GENTLE.


It may be pounded in but imo I did my research I am paying the fee and its my decision and no one elses.


----------



## LuvMyPerlinoQH

I like your mare Bubba nice looking girl esp her serious mare face. Theres a really cute sorrel cayuse at the Kentucky Horse Park only one I have ever seen up close in person not many around here.


----------

