# Saying "White"



## GoGo5 (Jul 10, 2020)

How do you feel about people saying "white?"

While I know that some people correct the phrase simply due to misinformation, other people seem to get really bothered by it, even if you just say it casually.

I know that there is not really a true "white" horse, but I do sometimes say "white."

*looking out at a herd of horses*
"Which horse is yours?"
"Oh, the white one."

What's wrong with that?
While some (horse) people seem generally okay with that, others are _very_ quick to say, "actually, there is no such thing as white horses because..." in a condescending way. Like, if you don't say "double-diluted, homozygous cremello" or "Ee AA CrCr perlino" (exaggeration), they look down on you for that.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I don't know why, but for me gray horses are white. But cremello horses are cremello, not white. If someone called a cremello horse white, I'd get that snooty tone of voice and no doubt say something like, "Oh you mean the _cremello _horse..."


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I always just say gray or cremello. Am I big on correcting? No. Especially if it's their own horse. They can call it whatever they want to.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I've told this story before, but my brown mare and a sorrel overo mare were grazing together and my neighbor asked "is yours the brown one?" He meant the sorrel overo because she IS, is crayon colors, brown (with white splotches). My horse to him looks "black". 

Did I say, "How ignorant you are! The lighter colored horse is genetically red, or chestnut, because both her alleles on the E locus are recessive, and the darker colored horse is a dark expression of bay, with the A modifier of black probably heterozygous Aa, as one can surmise by her lighter muzzle and flanks."

No. I said, "Mine is the black horse." 

If I see a whitish horse out in the field I don't know I would ask, "who's that light-colored mare out there?" There are so many different ways of turning a horse's coat white. But "white" isn't the name of any of them.


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

Doesn't bother me. It's descriptive and it works. I get more annoyed at people calling all foals "colts" regardless of gender, but that is a whole different thing! LOL!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

My non horsey friends always call a baby horse a pony. I crack up laughing. I usually know what they are talking about and don't say anything.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

> What's wrong with that?
> While some (horse) people seem generally okay with that, others are very quick to say, "actually, there is no such thing as white horses because..." in a condescending way. Like, if you don't say "double-diluted, homozygous cremello" or "Ee AA CrCr perlino" (exaggeration), they look down on you for that.


My daughter's horse is white. I find it really annoying when horse people correct me and say, "She is actually called gray." Yes, I know that. But she's truly purely white. I think it's silly to call her gray when she's white. I do call her "gray" around horse people just because I hate the condescension. 

On the other hand, I was raised foxhunting, and I call those red jackets "pink coats" because I was taught that from childhood. I still wouldn't correct a novice who might ask about who gets to wear the red jacket.


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Same as you. Getting berated by a stranger for this small thing always makes me giggle. But in some circles where I've said it I've actually noticed that they dont take me seriously much after that. If anything in gave me incentive to do it more just to see how quick a person is to judge


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Kind of led me to a question. Are there other animals out there where the young are differentiated by gender? Besides people and horses that is. Like dogs are dogs and bitches but the young are just pups. Cats are queens and toms but the young are just kittens.

And is the gelding the only neutered animal that has it's own name to depict that?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Now that we are seeing so many max whites we're going to have to distinguish the pink skinned white or dark skinned white. The max whites are the closest to total white you get.

I have always called a gray a gray even when white as with the dark skin they have a grayish cast unless they are flea bit. Then I call them that.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

I'm fine with someone using white; I've done it myself with non-horsey people. It was the best way to identify a horse in a field of white looking greys, various steel greys, grey-duns and cream-duns.

I've also used black and white instead of piebald, and brown and white instead of skewbald.


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## GoGo5 (Jul 10, 2020)

Has anyone called Buckskins, Palominos, Champagnes, Dun, etc. "Yellow"? I have. It feels a little "childish" but it is quick and easy to point out horses/colors (in a field/group) to non-horse people. lol


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

In my country buckskins are called duns and yellow-dun is a colour.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

We had some horses that were truly "white", well, dominant white and maximum sabino horses. They were all white with light brown eyes and pink skin. That's what I'd reserve white for. 

I think if a grey horse has lost it's grey and turned white then it's okay to call it white. I think it depends who you are talking to as well.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

LoriF said:


> Kind of led me to a question. Are there other animals out there where the young are differentiated by gender? Besides people and horses that is. Like dogs are dogs and bitches but the young are just pups. Cats are queens and toms but the young are just kittens.
> 
> And is the gelding the only neutered animal that has it's own name to depict that?


Gelded male: capon, steer, ox, wether. 

Usually unweaned males and females are called (name for sex) + (name for young). Bull calf, heifer calf, ram lamb, ewe lamb, buck kid, doe kid, etc. Dog breeders talk about ***** pups and dog pups. 

There is often a name for young female animals that have not yet been bred -- heifer, gilt, doeling. And there are different names in different parts of the world that speak English, too.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Caledonian said:


> In my country buckskins are called duns and yellow-dun is a colour.


What is an actual dun called? Because what in North America is called a buckskin and what is called a dun are genetically distinct. A buckskin is a bay with a cream gene. A dun is a bay with a dun dilution gene.


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## GoGo5 (Jul 10, 2020)

If the horse looks like this:








then it's pretty clear that the horse is "grey" (duh), even to a non-horsy person.

If the horse looks like this:








then I think it is okay to say "white."

*Not my horses.


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## ksbowman (Oct 30, 2018)

GoGo5 said:


> Has anyone called Buckskins, Palominos, Champagnes, Dun, etc. "Yellow"? I have. It feels a little "childish" but it is quick and easy to point out horses/colors (in a field/group) to non-horse people. lol


 I had a Palomino mare that I always referred to as " My yellow mare". In my circles that was very acceptable.


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## Caledonian (Nov 27, 2016)

Avna said:


> What is an actual dun called? Because what in North America is called a buckskin and what is called a dun are genetically distinct. A buckskin is a bay with a cream gene. A dun is a bay with a dun dilution gene.



A dun is a dun and a buckskin is a dun. Say 'buckskin' in the UK and you'll get a funny look. We understand that they're genetically different, we've used it for so long that it has become a habit. It's present in our ancient and modern languages and used to describe browns, from yellow through to dark.


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## GoGo5 (Jul 10, 2020)

What about calling chestnuts "red" or bays "brown?" I read somewhere that "brown" is legit used for dark bays in some breed registries...


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

When my very young nephew came to visit, I told him that Teddy (Chestnut) was "Bevo colored." You'd have to be from Texas to know, probably, but Bevo is the mascot of the University of Texas, and he is an appropriately burnt orange color.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

My stepmom has always said that she loves red horses. To this day I don't know if she means red with a red mane and tail or red with a black mane and tail. Or it could be both. You know, just red horses.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I think it's about as silly (unless of course, you're in a group of people knowledgeable & interested in genetics of colour) as being offended by saying 'that white person' or 'that black person', or 'that redhead'. Technically there are no white or black people and 'redheads' don't actually have red hair...

I have a white pony, a yellow horse and I often refer to chestnuts as orange or red. And I don't recall hearing a horsey person say this, but from years of working with cattlemen, a white faced horse(as was my gunmetal dapple pony before he became white) is 'baldyfaced'.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

GoGo5 said:


> What about calling chestnuts "red" or bays "brown?" I read somewhere that "brown" is legit used for dark bays in some breed registries...


Chestnut = red = sorrel (although some only use sorrel to refer to a bright, light red, as chestnut can be almost black and still be genetically chestnut -- we call those liver chestnuts). 

Brown is a dark bay, almost black. And Brown is a legitimate term. Every registry is a bit different. 

Horse color names are like plant names -- they vary according to area and culture etc etc. Just use the ones local to you and talk genetics to those who are interested in it.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I thought that the difference between brown and bay was that bay horses have black legs but brown horses don't?


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

GoGo5 said:


> What about calling chestnuts "red" or bays "brown?" I read somewhere that "brown" is legit used for dark bays in some breed registries...



I had a Westfalen mare that was labeled brown (braun) on her papers. She was black everywhere except a little bay on her muzzle.


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## vonlora (Mar 28, 2011)

I have a few spot Appaloosa that we all call white. If you are more than three feet away from here you can not see the mottling on her nose or the small chestnut spots on her body. I do have to laugh at newbies, they are amazed that she is not white close up.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Brown is a phenotype of bay. So a brown horse has black legs and is brown as opposed to red for body. There was a thread called Baddest Brown or BAB I will hunt up. 



https://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/baddest-brown-92038/


Loosie we always called horses or cows with white faces baldyfaced.


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't care, but if I'm chatting with color snobs, I'll use the correct names. Otherwise, the hairs are white, they look white, it's not dappled grey, so saying white horse is fine by me. If people are pretending to know colors and say white instead of grey, then that's annoying. 
But in general, it's not worth it to obsess over, life is too short to bother over such insignificant things. It really is.


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## BzooZu (Jan 12, 2014)

Where I live we use people hair colors to talk about horse colors. We dont have bays - they are all brown. Greys are greys or whites depending on who you talk to, but both are used. We dont have palominos they are blondes and we dont have red or chestnut horses they all get called ginger.

While I personally would distinguish between greys and whites because I know the difference, I dont expect people around me to do that and I dont correct anyone.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I use the correct terminology because I know what it is. If you use incorrect terminology for something, in any field, you mark yourself as ignorant. I don't see the point of insisting on wrong terminology just because it makes sense to you. Language is for communicating, and one thing it communicates is familiarity with the subject or lack of it.

In the American West, with a different culture around horse colors than Britain, I learned to call colors sorrel, bay, pinto, grulla, buckskin, dun, cremello, palomino. We said pinto not paint, tobiano or overo, Appaloosas were common and had different descriptors for their patterns. Notice how many of those names are Spanish. Gray horses were gray (and pretty rare except in Arabians). We didn't call horses white. I have never called a horse white except to non-horse people who wouldn't otherwise know what I was talking about, and I'm not starting now.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hmm. I was born and live my whole life in Arizona and I'm still not sure what actually constitutes a "sorrel." I am guessing it's a flaxen chestnut. But I've heard different descriptions used, and I don't believe I've ever met anyone with a chestnut that called it sorrel, so the whole sorrel thing is fuzzy to me. And I believe draft horses have their own version of "sorrel." So I just call anything I think of as genetically chestnut, chestnut. I think my lack of early hands-on experience with horses PLUS it seems like all the horse books I had as a child were from the UK, left me very muddled with "sorrel."

I really don't get bent-out-of-shape on using "white" for grey horses, although I use the term grey myself. And if someone else uses the term "white," I guess I go by there experience level to try to decern what they mean. For instance, if it is a non-horsey person, or a newbie, I figure they mean grey. If it is someone who should know better, they I will ask if they mean grey, dominant white, lethal white, max sabino, cremello or whatever. 

What I DO find annoying for some reason, well I guess just because it's so wrong, is to call a grey horse "roan." I have run across people with young grey horses and they think they are roans and I try to tell them the horse is grey and they just don't get it. I also met a lady with a varnish roan appaloosa who thought she had a paint. And I have told her about 3 times to look up "varnish roan appaloosa" and she never does it because she still thinks what she has is a paint.......not because the horse is registered (it's not) but because someone else told her it was a paint. Okay, whatever. :icon_rolleyes: 

But I guess "white" doesn't bother me as much because if a grey horse is actually white, except for the dark skin, than it's fine as a descriptive term. Unless of course they mean a different form of white, which is where it gets messy. But I find most people, out in the real world (vs. the internet) are unaware of the genetics of other forms of "white" horses. To them, anything with all white hair is "white," weather the skin is black or pink, they don't know there is really a difference.

I guess we are talking genotype vs. phenotype. To me, "white" describes the color, but not the genetics.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Avna said:


> I use the correct terminology because I know what it is. If you use incorrect terminology for something, in any field, you mark yourself as ignorant. I don't see the point of insisting on wrong terminology just because it makes sense to you. Language is for communicating, and one thing it communicates is familiarity with the subject or lack of it.
> .


The only thing is, some people take offense if you "correct" them. If someone calls their roan a grey, and I tell them why it's actually grey and not roan, and they don't accept that, then however correct I may be, I still might come across as a know-it-all, or someone who has to win an argument. I might try to correct someone once or twice (in a nice, explanatory way) but if they don't accept that, or don't think I know what I am talking about, then they just find it irritating. You can be "right" but sometimes it's just not worth making a stand on.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

PS. Has anyone ever seen a horse in a trailer and because you can't see the whole horse, you drive yourself crazy trying to figure out what color it was? I saw one the other day, and I could only see his rump and a little bit of his back and head and I STILL don't know if he was an Appaloosa or maybe an extreme sabino. He had some red hair on his rump, like mixed in, but he was basically "white" (which is why I thought of it on this thread). And not being able to see his legs, hooves or muzzle, I still don't know if he had LP characteristics or was basically an extreme sabino. 

So he was like one of these two. I guess he could have been dominant white as well, but I think that is pretty rare and mainly in TB's, not random horses on Arizona highways. 





















They are obviously very different patterns in the pictures, but inside a horse trailer I just couldn't get a good enough view!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> The only thing is, some people take offense if you "correct" them. If someone calls their roan a grey, and I tell them why it's actually grey and not roan, and they don't accept that, then however correct I may be, I still might come across as a know-it-all, or someone who has to win an argument. I might try to correct someone once or twice (in a nice, explanatory way) but if they don't accept that, or don't think I know what I am talking about, then they just find it irritating. You can be "right" but sometimes it's just not worth making a stand on.


I'm not the color terminology police, I don't "correct" people unless it's appropriate to the situation. 

Now GRAMMAR ...


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> PS. Has anyone ever seen a horse in a trailer and because you can't see the whole horse, you drive yourself crazy trying to figure out what color it was? I saw one the other day, and I could only see his rump and a little bit of his back and head and I STILL don't know if he was an Appaloosa or maybe an extreme sabino. He had some red hair on his rump, like mixed in, but he was basically "white" (which is why I thought of it on this thread). And not being able to see his legs, hooves or muzzle, I still don't know if he had LP characteristics or was basically an extreme sabino.
> 
> </snip>


You should have cut in front of them and forced them to the shoulder and made them unload the horse so you could satisfy your curiousity. Duh!


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

@Avna, you made me laugh out loud! I am so glad you are still posting on threads. You are priceless.




> You can be "right" but sometimes it's just not worth making a stand on.


Dr. Phil says, "Would you rather be right or would you rather be loved?" I quote this to my husband who has to have the last word and is certain he is right. He might be right, but at those times, he isn't much loved.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> Hmm. I was born and live my whole life in Arizona and I'm still not sure what actually constitutes a "sorrel." I am guessing it's a flaxen chestnut. But I've heard different descriptions used, and I don't believe I've ever met anyone with a chestnut that called it sorrel, so the whole sorrel thing is fuzzy to me. And I believe draft horses have their own version of "sorrel." So I just call anything I think of as genetically chestnut, chestnut. I think my lack of early hands-on experience with horses PLUS it seems like all the horse books I had as a child were from the UK, left me very muddled with "sorrel."
> </snip>.


Where I grew up in California, a bright, light chestnut was called a sorrel. A medium to darkish chestnut was a chestnut. A very dark chestnut was a liver chestnut. The flaxen mane and tail was additional information. My last horse before I went to college was a plain sorrel but her mama was almost a liver chestnut and had a flaxen mane. She was a looker. 

However ... there are lots of arguments about what a sorrel is. So don't feel dumb.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I rarely use "correct" terminology. My clients and friends don't seem to care.

Heck, if I'm hopping on a horse for someone, I rarely know it's name and, unless a stallion, don't care what gender it is. I only care if it's a stallion so I can watch who else is around us.

They all get called mare, mom, or bud. 

I'd never survive if I had to be correct all the time.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

LoriF said:


> Kind of led me to a question. Are there other animals out there where the young are differentiated by gender? Besides people and horses that is. Like dogs are dogs and bitches but the young are just pups. Cats are queens and toms but the young are just kittens.
> 
> And is the gelding the only neutered animal that has it's own name to depict that?


Steers for cattle. Wether for a goat.

In my decades on the planet I have never heard the term Queen for a female cat. It does fit though. Learn something new every day!!!!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Dustbunny said:


> Steers for cattle. Wether for a goat.
> 
> In my decades on the planet I have never heard the term Queen for a female cat. It does fit though. Learn something new every day!!!!



Yes, there is some quite interesting names for male, female, offspring and groups of animals. Some you would say "Oh, that makes sense" and others, you are saying "What?".


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Dustbunny said:


> Steers for cattle. Wether for a goat.
> 
> In my decades on the planet I have never heard the term Queen for a female cat. It does fit though. Learn something new every day!!!!


Cat breeders. Breeders of everything have their special names. I was resoundingly put in my place by a guinea pig fancier once. Those are NOT guinea pigs. Those are *cavies.*


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## Fuddyduddy1952 (Jun 26, 2019)

Friend has this sign in his shop.








Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I just discovered "a murder of crows" a while back. So now when we have a group of them in our yard, I will declare "We have a murder of crows!" It makes my parents look at me funny.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

There are greys that are dappled. There are greys with red flecks called 'flea bitten'. There are older grey horses who's dapples have gone inside them (more about this) that then appear white with black skin, except where they used to have white markings. Then there are the true pink skinned albinos that are white. In dapple greys, they are born dark and they gradually become dappled as the melanin pigment contracts in their skin and goes inside them. When the color is gone they are white appearing. 

I once had a dream that I was riding a white flying horse in the sky. It was so real, I could feel the wind and the contraction of the wing muscles of the shoulders. 
The horse sang as she flew in a harmony of voices. "Who am I? Why was I born? Out of the air, out of the sky. Who am I?"I said Oh horse, you are so beautiful. The horse said "Oh, you think I am beautiful? Once I was black as a raven's wing. But my beauty turned to wisdom and went inside me. That is what you see".


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

AragoASB said:


> There are greys that are dappled. There are greys with red flecks called 'flea bitten'. There are older grey horses who's dapples have gone inside them (more about this) that then appear white with black skin, except where they used to have white markings. Then there are the true pink skinned albinos that are white. In dapple greys, they are born dark and they gradually become dappled as the melanin pigment contracts in their skin and goes inside them. When the color is gone they are white appearing.
> 
> I once had a dream that I was riding a white flying horse in the sky. It was so real, I could feel the wind and the contraction of the wing muscles of the shoulders.
> The horse sang as she flew in a harmony of voices. "Who am I? Why was I born? Out of the air, out of the sky. Who am I?"I said Oh horse, you are so beautiful. The horse said "Oh, you think I am beautiful? Once I was black as a raven's wing. But my beauty turned to wisdom and went inside me. That is what you see".


Wish I had your kind of dreams. The ones I remember usually involve tidal waves.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

AragoASB said:


> In dapple greys, they are born dark and they gradually become dappled as the melanin pigment contracts in their skin and goes inside them..


Grey is a disease of the melanocytes - pigment producing cells. The cells overproduce pigment and thus burn themselves out, causing the coat to turn grey with time. Sometimes, some cells regain their ability to produce pigment as the horse ages, which can result in fleabites (which can be red or black). That process has nothing to do with contracting skin. I am not sure if your reference to 'going inside them' relates to the increased chance of melanomas in greys?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

phantomhorse13 said:


> I am not sure if your reference to 'going inside them' relates to the increased chance of melanomas in greys?


A reference to her really cool dream?

I, too, wish I had those kind. :smile:. Mine are usually either a vehicle breaking down and trying to fix it. Or war like.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

There is no albinism in horses. There are different Gene's that cause extensive white marking. Essentially the horse is one giant white spot. No non pigmented eyes.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

Worse are the dreams when we are naked and nobody notices.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

trailhorserider said:


> I just discovered "a murder of crows" a while back. So now when we have a group of them in our yard, I will declare "We have a murder of crows!" It makes my parents look at me funny.


Some funny names for groups of animals - like a 'crash' of rhino's. But yes, murder of crows is a fav. Been known to share that FB pic whenever it comes around of an 'attempted murder' - 2 crows sitting on a park bench.

Avna we used to have guineas & I always thought cavvies were a different type of beast.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AragoASB said:


> Worse are the dreams when we are naked and nobody notices.


Nah mate! You must be a 'special type' to be worried about that! ;-)  I recon the ones where everyone DOES & points & laughs are worse!

And Fuddyduddy, back to groups of animals, it's a lot easier to remember them all in Australia. There're 'mobs' of kangaroos, mobs of horses, mobs of cockies, mobs of rabbits, mobs of flies, mobs of water(in a flood, or for that matter, a good season), mobs of dust...


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## keelan (Jan 5, 2010)

I say gray gone white Or flea bitten gray gone white. I used to joke about my flea bitten gray that if she lived long enough she would be chestnut again. I wish she had. Lost her at 32.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Calling a horse "White" that isn't white is one of those tells that let's me know the person speaking might really like horses but doesn't know much about them. So there is that. Entirely understandable because of the pervasive use of "white horse" in stories and songs. "She'll be riding six white horses when she comes..." 

If you called a horse that looks pretty close to white a Gray you would almost always be right. I don't get too bothered by it though. It's like people calling a bit that very clearly is not a snaffle a "snaffle" because it has a jointed mouth piece. They are wrong, but whatever and I'm not the "well akshewally" type except when in a rare mood.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> I just discovered "a murder of crows" a while back. So now when we have a group of them in our yard, I will declare "We have a murder of crows!" It makes my parents look at me funny.


I really like that one too. Mob of Kangaroos is another funny one.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

> Worse are the dreams when we are naked and nobody notices.


In mine, I am naked and keep HOPING that nobody will notice. The dream I really hate is when I can't get somewhere I am supposed to be. I keep thinking "if I just do ________, I'll still make it just being a little bit late.

I think we are supposed to be discussing white colored horses who are actually called gray. This is an interesting thread!


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