# Crossing Black and Palomino



## tempest

What possible colors could a foal be if you crossed a homozygous black stallion (purebred Friesian) with a palomino mare (purebred Morgan)?

Using an online color calculator I was given the possibilities of Black, Buckskin, Bay, and Smoky Black (all 25%). Are any other colors possible?


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## Chiilaa

Without knowing the mare's agouti status, those are all possible. Brown and brown buckskin are also possible. What colour were the mare's parents?


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## tempest

I don't know. I'll check and get back to you.


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## tempest

Ok. The mare's parents were both palomino.


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## verona1016

Unfortunately that doesn't help determine her agouti status. If she carries no agouti then you'd only get a black or smoky black. If she's homozygous for agouti you'd only get a bay/brown or buckskin. And if she's heterozygous you get the 25% chance for black, smoky black, bay/brown, or buckskin.


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## tempest

Would a picture of the mare help? I have no further access to information on the mare's background or color status such as agouti.


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## EponaLynn

tempest said:


> Would a picture of the mare help? I have no further access to information on the mare's background or color status such as agouti.


No a picture won't help but genetic testing will.


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## tempest

Ok. What about crossing the same stud with a chestnut Morgan mare?


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## tempest

Would you be able to get any colors other than black or bay?


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## SunnyDraco

tempest said:


> Would you be able to get any colors other than black or bay?


Chestnut to homozygous black will only produce bay/brown or black. Again depending on the mare's agouti status.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

what is your mare's reg name? might be able to find her on all breed. im also good at hunting down lineages XD!


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## tempest

I was wondering about colors because I'm curious about the colors of two horses at my BO's barn. One is a foal out of a black stud and the palomino mare. And the other is the mare I ride there. She's out of a black stud and the chestnut mare. I don't know if the horse I ride is registered but I'll give you her name.

Ha-Ho Razz


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## SunnyDraco

tempest said:


> I was wondering about colors because I'm curious about the colors of two horses at my BO's barn. One is a foal out of a black stud and the palomino mare. And the other is the mare I ride there. She's out of a black stud and the chestnut mare. I don't know if the horse I ride is registered but I'll give you her name.
> 
> Ha-Ho Razz


Not every black is homozygous black, do you know if the black sires were tested to be homozygous black? If they are heterozygous black, you also get a chance of chestnut/sorrel or palomino out of the palomino mare and a 50% chance chestnut/sorrel out of a chestnut mare


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## Yogiwick

I'm not quite understanding. You are wondering what colors the already born adult offspring are? Or you're just curious as to what other colors the genetic lottery did NOT pick?

FWIW a palomino is a chestnut horse with one cream gene. So you will have the same color options plus a 50% chance of passing on that cream gene onto those color options.


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## tempest

A little bit of both. As far as I know Razz is bay but someone mentioned that she might possibly be brown so I just wondered if it was possible based on her parentage. The foal I was just plain curious about. He's a color I don't see very often so I wondered what would be possible due to his lineage.


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## verona1016

tempest said:


> I was wondering about colors because I'm curious about the colors of two horses at my BO's barn. One is a foal out of a black stud and the palomino mare. And the other is the mare I ride there. She's out of a black stud and the chestnut mare. I don't know if the horse I ride is registered but I'll give you her name.
> 
> Ha-Ho Razz


It will make a difference if the black stud is not a Friesian, since 99.9% of Friesians are homozygous for black, whereas you can't make the same assumption of any other random black horse. If the black horse is not homozygous, chestnut and palomino (from the palomino mare only, not the chestnut) also become possibilities.


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## tempest

Razz's sire was a black Friesian. Which is why I'm under the assumption he was homozygous.


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## Regula

tempest said:


> Would you be able to get any colors other than black or bay?


No, out of a homozygous black stallion and a chestnut mare you will never get chestnut. You will get black, bay or brown.
Out of a homozygous black stallion and a palomino (= chestnut + cream) mare you will never get a chestnut or palomino either. You will always get a black base (black, bay or brown, depending on the agouti status of the mare) with or without the mother's cream ( -> smoky black, buckskin, brownskin).

If you get chestnut or palomino, the father is not homozygous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tempest

Ok. Thank you for replying everyone. This has been very informative.


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## Yogiwick

No because the agouti (what turns black to bay/brown) would obviously come from the chestnut/palomino since you would see it on the black.

On red (chestnut is "red" so palomino is also red based) it hides so there will be no clue if or what the parent has. You can only tell via offspring or genetic testing or parentage further back.

If you want to know if your mare is bay or brown put up a picture


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## tempest

The darker marks across her back, withers, near the point of her hip, and on her stifle are sweat marks.


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## Yogiwick

Pretty.

I'd say she's bay. She has that "copper penny" look, most browns are darker.

Also, the distinguishing factor is that the color is more faded on the "soft" points. Think of the classic seal brown- black horse with brown muzzle, flanks, etc. Now browns can and often are much lighter and similar to the more classic bay but that same color change that the seal browns have is still apparent.

Often the horse will look bay in the summer yet in a winter coat you will see the telltale soft points, showing it's truly a brown.


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## stevenson

mare appears to be a bay. dark muzzle .


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## Yogiwick

^Lots of colors have a dark muzzle?


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## DraftyAiresMum

I think what stevenson meant was that the mare doesn't have the cinnamon-colored muzzle associated with a brown horse.


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## Smilie

black is dominant,and the stud is homozygous for black, thus it is the mare that will contribute any dilution genes, that will affect the black expression (palomino mare )
A bay horse can be heterozgous for bay, so again need to know her genetics, to see possible modifying genes that she can contribute


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## SunnyDraco

Smilie said:


> black is dominant,and the stud is homozygous for black, thus it is the mare that will contribute any dilution genes, that will affect the black expression (palomino mare )
> A bay horse can be heterozgous for bay, so again need to know her genetics, to see possible modifying genes that she can contribute


Kinda right. The palomino mare will contribute red, 50% chance cream (cream is not noticeable on a black horse, smokey black looks just like black), and agouti if the mare carries agouti. Agouti controls black and creates either bay, brown or wild bay depending on which agouti mutation. Agouti doesn't not effect red based horses so you never know if a red based horse (like a palomino) has no agouti, heterozygous agouti or homozygous agouti unless you test or by progeny (black based foals produced)
There isn't a heterozygous bay, there is heterogous agouti. A bay mare has at least one black and one agouti, but they could also be homozygous black and/or homozygous agouti 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Captain Evil

"(cream is not noticeable on a black horse, smokey black looks just like black)"

...so a smoky black horse just looks like a regular black horse? I thought they had a kind of brown-ashy look, probably mislead by the label. Do they fade to brown in the sun like some black horses?

Also, if a black has the agouti gene, is that bay, or is it that they test black but fade to bay, like my black Percheron. Or is that a separate thing?


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## DraftyAiresMum

Captain, your Percheron doesn't "fade to bay," as bay (agouti) is a separate gene modifier that is not found in pure Percherons. If your black horse fades/gets lighter, it is considered a fading black. Genetically still just a black horse (represented E__...in the case of Percherons, it would have to be EE, as red is not present in the breed). In order to create a bay/brown/wild bay horse, you need the presence of at least one black gene (E__) and one agouti gene (A/At/A+__). There is no other way to have a bay horse.

Smokey black horses may or may not fade in the sun. It depends on if they would have faded had they not inherited the cream gene. The only sure way to tell if a horse is a smokey black versus a fading black is through genetic testing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyDraco

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Smokey black horses may or may not fade in the sun. It depends on if they would have faded had they not inherited the cream gene. The only sure way to tell if a horse is a smokey black versus a fading black is through genetic testing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Or by progeny. If you get a palomino or buckskin foal out of a black horse crossed with a bay or chestnut, then you know the black is a smokey black :wink:


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## DraftyAiresMum

SunnyDraco said:


> Or by progeny. If you get a palomino or buckskin foal out of a black horse crossed with a bay or chestnut, then you know the black is a smokey black :wink:


That too. Lol. Forgive my slow brain. I'm running on 3.5 hours of sleep in the past 36 hours and I worked a double and a half (19.5 hours) last night. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick

I wouldn't say smokey black is invisible. Just that it *can be* very hard/impossible to detect with phenotype. But not always. Some can look like normal blacks but some will be strangely faded as said. then starts the guessing and parent checking


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## SunnyDraco

Yogiwick said:


> I wouldn't say smokey black is invisible. Just that it *can be* very hard/impossible to detect with phenotype. But not always. Some can look like normal blacks but some will be strangely faded as said. then starts the guessing and parent checking


Some blacks fade funny without cream :lol:


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## stevenson

Captain.. here is the info from Perch registry
The Percheron has a very pleasing disposition. He is proud, alert, intelligent and willing worker. Percherons are usually black or grey, but there are also sorrels, bays, roans, etc. Many Percherons have white markings on the head and feet, but excessive white is undesirable. Percherons range in height from 15 to 19 hands high, most are between 16-2 and 17-3 hands high. They can weigh up to 2600 pounds with the average around 1900. Percherons are noted for heavy muscling in the lower thighs and for an aspect of unusual ruggedness and power. Also characteristic of the Percheron is the clean action and quality conformation of the feet and legs. An ideal horse should have a fairly long level croup with a big round hip. He should be close coupled and wide and deep through the chest, with plenty of back rib. The muscles of the arms, forearms, croup and gaskins plenty are especially emphasized in a good drafter, and ease and balance of gait is essential. He is also expected to be of marked tractability and an easy keeper.


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## Yogiwick

Oh missed that question.

Black plus agouti is bay (or brown). Black vs fading black is not a testable thing, both are genetically black there is no genetic color difference, there are other factors in play. (Though as mentioned smokey black can be easily confused)

There is a theory that homozygous black are less likely to fade and vice versa.

Agouti = bay/brown and isn't relative to fading.


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## Bridgertrot

Yogiwick said:


> Oh missed that question.
> 
> Black plus agouti is bay (or brown). Black vs fading black is not a testable thing, both are genetically black there is no genetic color difference, there are other factors in play. (Though as mentioned smokey black can be easily confused)
> 
> There is a theory that homozygous black are less likely to fade and vice versa.
> 
> Agouti = bay/brown and isn't relative to fading.


Actually, agouti does not equal bay/brown. Agouti is a genetic locus, not a color. So if you have a horse who is EE or Ee and has the alelle for bay (A) AT agouti, it is bay.

I know it's easier to say black + agouti is bay, but it makes it sounds like agouti is it's own gene.  And actually black (and red) originally stemmed from bay (more so bay dun). I used understand it the same way so it's tough for me to change my thinking too haha


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## Yogiwick

Well, generally speaking... Trying not to write a text book for the OP.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Bridgertrot said:


> Actually, agouti does not equal bay/brown. Agouti is a genetic locus, not a color. So if you have a horse who is EE or Ee and has the alelle for bay (A) AT agouti, it is bay.
> 
> I know it's easier to say black + agouti is bay, but it makes it sounds like agouti is it's own gene.  And actually black (and red) originally stemmed from bay (more so bay dun). I used understand it the same way so it's tough for me to change my thinking too haha


That's all well and good when you're talking to someone who understands color genetics, like Yogiwick, Chiilaa, Poseidon, me, or SunnyDraco. However, when someone doesn't understand how genetics work, it is best to boil it down to the bare essence of what it means so as not to confuse them further. For simplicity's sake, black+agouti=bay/brown/wild bay. If the OP wants to learn further, that's their prerogative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick

^Exactly.

Now I'm not pretending to be an expert but I have a basic understand but I've found (with anything) that simplifying to someone who is just learning is often the best, otherwise you will just lose them.

And in effect that is how it works.


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