# Herd Bullies: Am I over reacting?



## Corporal

Courtney said:


> I keep my horse at an outdoor only facility here in Edmonton. It’s a very bare-bones type set up – just an outdoor arena and round pen, enclosed tack room with lockers and small viewing area for visitors, and a 2-stall barn to groom or tack up in. I don’t really need much more than this, and the price is reasonable.
> 
> My mare has been living here for just about 3 months now, and she’s still getting bullied by the other horses. I understand that horses have to settle things amongst themselves, but does it take three months? Every time I show up to the barn to see her, she has a new injury from another horse… soccer ball sized hematoma on her chest from a well-placed kick, swollen hock from another kick, bite marks, chunks missing from her hind quarters, etc. On one occasion, I walked up to the field and spotted my mare standing by herself in the corner. She wasn’t near food or water… she was just standing in a small sun beam in the middle of winter. The other horses weren’t even near her. Then, one of the horses squealed and charged across the pasture toward her. Before I knew what was happening, s/he had bitten and kicked my mare and chased her off in another direction. When I finally caught her, my mare was bleeding from the bite on her flank and limping from a kick to her leg.
> 
> There are no smaller pens to put my horse in on this property and I am seriously considering moving her to a new barn for her safety. Am I over reacting? Am I being too protective of my mare? Am I being smart to act now before something worse happens? I thought for sure the herd would settle things by now, but it seems that the bullying is just getting worse...


Horses do not understand equity. You are either #1 or #2 in EVERY relationship, and you should know that your horse sizes you up in this way every time you work with her. 
SOME aggressive horses are that way bc they've had to fight for their herd position so often that they are afraid of being beaten up--I had one like this, and she's gone. ALL herd or flock animals have a pecking order. Once it is established all members are happy, until a new horse is introduced and they all have to reshuffle. It's hard to establish a pecking order when they don't spend every day turned out with each other, which is how I keep MY herd.
Even when I had my best herd leader, "Tyke", he still gave me some Vet bills by putting 2 members of the herd through the (wooden) gate, and one over the gate. After they establish pecking order then they fight to eat and drink first. Many people feel sorry for the bottom horse(s) when they witness this, but you, the owner, just needs to be aware, and plan accordingly.


Courtney said:


> For what it’s worth, I found a nice facility just a little bit further away than her current location. For just $50 a month more than I currently pay, I will have access to an outdoor arena, a large heated indoor, a round pen, indoor wash racks, a tack locker and lesson program. Not only that, but this facility has private pens and many pasture options...If you were in my situation, what would you do? :?


Move.


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## Speed Racer

Sounds like someone has a belligerent horse, and that particular horse doesn't like your mare.

I'd say if it's been 3 months and she's still getting the stuffing beaten out of her, it's time to move.


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## myhorsesonador

I would move. Not all horses are going to get along, and it seems like your mares health is at risk if she stays there much longer.


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## mls

For an additional $50 - heated indoor?

No question - move!


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## kevinshorses

If my horse loved it there but I could move to a better place for only $50 per month more I'd consider moving. If my horse was getting the stuffing kicked out of her then I would definately move.


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## Courtney

So I'm not completely crazy. Phew.

When I moved my mare here, I was fully prepared and expecting that she would get picked on and beaten up while the herd dynamic was being readjusted. I had my antiseptic wash ready and I was waiting for the bite wounds to start. I know it happens and I waited patiently for it to tone down. At around a month with no sign of it calming down, I mentioned it to the barn owner and he gave me that, “aww, you’re so cute to worry about your widdle horsie” look. I figured he knew the process better than I did, so I chose to hang tight and keep cleaning wounds as I found them. Two months in, she was still coming in bloodied and bruised. No horses have been changed and shuffled since, but apparently, she was still considered the newbie. Mid-February will be 3 months and I feel really, really bad for my poor mare. Fortunately, it appears that the herd is allowing her to eat, because her weight has stayed steady. She’s just constantly battered.

Thank you for the reassurance that I’m not over-reacting. I really tried to wait it out and see if the herd would settle things, but I’m beginning to see that I’d have better chances of a pig sprouting wings and soaring majestically.


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## kevinshorses

If a new horse came in then she wouldn't get so battered. 

The new horse stays the new horse until there's a new new horse!!


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## Skyseternalangel

Vote for you moving.


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## Cowgirls Boots

For only $50 more you can have a heater indoor? :shock: 
I'd so move there!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Remali

After three months.... I would definitely move out of there. They really should separate the aggressive horse/horses, but rather than even ask them to do that, I would move as soon as I could. I used to board, one place in particular had too many aggressive horses in one certain pasture, my mare was quiet and docile, kept to herself yet she kept getting picked on and one day she was run right thru the fence and hit a post and needed several stitches. I wouldn't even give it three days now, and three months is more than enough time. Time to move.


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## Maple

As it is your horse is on the bottom of the totem pole, and I say she is going to stay there. Some horse's will stand up for themselves, others won't. Like your mare, my gelding is attacked and bullies by everything else with 4 legs and a tail - even kid's ponies bully him! 

For the sake of €50, you'll get a heated indoor - if you feel you can afford it, go for it. I'd be loading my horse into the horsebox and be gone. If she's a timid horse, she'll keep getting bullied. I say being an individual pen or field with other timid horses may suit her better as obviously somebody in her current herd is quite the bully and there is a very obvious personality clash.


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## Courtney

That was my feeling too... I was just really hoping the big injuries would stop once the other horses figured out she wasn't going to attempt to take the alpha position away. Live and learn, eh?

I'm checking out this new barn on Saturday and if it looks as good as it sounds, I'm going to move my mare as soon as I can. The barn owner invited me to come by when morning lessons are happening, so I could see the level of activity, meet some other boarders and talk to the instructors. Then she'll give me a grand tour and we'll discuss. If everything works out, I'll move my mare that weekend if the new barn owner is available (she offered to haul my horse). I've paid my board until February 15 at the current place and I don't recall a month's notice clause in the boarding agreement -- do I still have to give notice and pay for the month I won't be there as a courtesy?


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## Maple

Courtney said:


> That was my feeling too... I was just really hoping the big injuries would stop once the other horses figured out she wasn't going to attempt to take the alpha position away. Live and learn, eh?
> 
> I'm checking out this new barn on Saturday and if it looks as good as it sounds, I'm going to move my mare as soon as I can. The barn owner invited me to come by when morning lessons are happening, so I could see the level of activity, meet some other boarders and talk to the instructors. Then she'll give me a grand tour and we'll discuss. If everything works out, I'll move my mare that weekend if the new barn owner is available (she offered to haul my horse). I've paid my board until February 15 at the current place and I don't recall a month's notice clause in the boarding agreement -- do I still have to give notice and pay for the month I won't be there as a courtesy?


It's a personal choice. Personally I'd give him notice as soon as you decide. Explain to him your reason for leaving, leave it on good terms and ask if he wants further payment or if he is happy to leave it . If you do it in a straight talking but friendly manner you have a good chance he'll say no. Thats my personal opinion but others may disagree.


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## Courtney

That sounds good to me. My plan was to check the new barn out in the morning on Saturday and then go to see my horse right after. I don't know if the barn owner will be on site when I get there, but if I don't see him, I'll give him a call. 

I think he was expecting me to move my horse eventually, as I only moved my horse to that barn for the winter. She was taking the winter off to 'recuperate' from being a broodmare and I explained that I would be moving to a more English oriented facility when spring rolled around so I could begin her under-saddle training. The fact that she's getting beat up just expedited the process, since it's not quite spring yet. He's a nice guy and I really hope he doesn't take it the wrong way.


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## Mellow Mel

I would move. Three months is a LONG time it seems to have it still be that intense. My horse went through it for a few days and now it is just some glares and getting chased off a hay pile. My BO also seperates out horses that are too aggressive. I think for your own peace of mind and the safety of your horse you should move. You will not feel comfortable leaving her until you know she is in a safer place. I am sure the BO will understand since they cannot make other accomodations for her.


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## churumbeque

You don't say how large the pasture is but if lots of horses and not much room to get away it causes more problems with horses not getting along.


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## Courtney

The pasture is very large... I'm not sure of exact dimensions, but I think I heard him say it was something like 40 or 50 acres. It's definitely not a small area. I think there are about 12 or 13 horses in it, including my horse.


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## caseymyhorserocks

MOVE!! Maybe think about moving all of your horses there so you won't have to deal with different barns..


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## BaileyJo

Definitely move. Poor baby. When you do move her, let the new BO know that she is low on the totem pole. Hopefully this will be taken into consideration if multiple pens are open. A really good BO will keep horses separated accordingly and even move horses around to work her in to a comfortable herd. Hopefully the next barn will suit her better.


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## RhondaLynn

MOVE HER! don't wait until she is REALLY hurt! 

I have a very aggessive gelding who has run another gelding in our pasture thru the fence. My daughter has spent many house doctoring the hurt gelding who is an old guy and has always been low man. We built the old guy a small pasture to keep him seperate from the aggressvie gelding. 

If you have an aggressive horse, some days they are nice and you think.. "hmmmm maybe they can now be friends" but then other days you realize that they CANNOT. At least that is how it is here at my pasture!

MOVE HER!!!

Rhonda


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## Courtney

The plan is to move her quickly, even if I have to pay for an additional month at her current barn. If I can arrange it, I'm going to move her this weekend. The new BO is aware of her timid nature and I've given her a run down of all the injuries suffered. She's going to be in a private pen for at least a month while the BO and her staff watch and evaluate her personality. Then, they'll place her with a complimentary herd. The BO has a large paddock with 5 other timid, elderly horses that she's going to try Vanna in first. All of these horses have been bullied badly in other herds, but live quite comfortably with each other. According to her, the worst she has seen this group do is lay their ears back at newbies and maybe attempt a nip. They're all low in the pecking order and while they have their own heirachy, none are aggressive about it. Aggressive horses at her facility are moved into private pens.


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## Courtney

Update: The new barn looks great and it only takes me 15 minutes to get there! The quickest I could arrange hauling to her new barn is next Saturday, so that's the big day. She'll be in a private pen just behind the indoor arena for about a month, and then we'll try her in the 20-acre pasture with the 'oldies'. Three of the six horses are permanently lame, one is missing an eye from an old injury and the remaining two are just completely calm. There may be a couple warning nips when I introduce Vanna to the herd, but the private pens are close enough to the pasture that Vanna can talk to the residents and make her presence known before she's moves to their herd.


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## Courtney

Well, I spoke to the barn owner and it went very well. I called him up today since I didn’t see him on the weekend and I don’t like to interrupt him at home on the weekends, and I let him know that I was going to be moving Vanna on Saturday. He sounded a little bit surprised, even though I had warned him I was going to move my horse in the spring time anyway.

Me: Would you like me to deliver a written notice to you, and pay my board in full to March 30? 
Him: You’re a nice kid and I don’t want to hang you out to dry. How about you figure out what 10 days of board costs and we’ll call it even?

Wow. I was prepared (and expecting) to pay for March at both barns, but it’s a really nice surprise to my budget that I don’t have to. Now I'm feeling even more stoked about the move!


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## BaileyJo

Great update! 

I know what it's like to have your horse bullied. She will be so happy!


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## Courtney

I hope so! I don't know if I'm just imagining it, but when I take her out of the field, I can feel tension radiating from her. As soon as I close the gate behind us and we walk further from the herd, I can feel her begin to relax. I make a point to take my time brushing her and scratching her favorite spots, just so she has extra time to relax and enjoy herself. When I saw her the other day, she started licking my hands as I was rubbing her chin. Then she rested her head against my shoulder and just sighed and stood quietly - she wasn't rubbing her head on me, but it was almost like she was saying, "Thanks, mom. I needed this. I'm so happy right now."

I hope she can make friends with her new herd. If nothing else, I hope they tolerate her standing beside them and maybe indulge her in some mutual grooming. Right now, I hate leaving her at the barn because I know she's going to be run off from the herd and made to stand by herself. That can't be beneficial to her mental health and I hope her new herd will accept her as one of their own. They don't have to be buddy-buddy... but I've got my fingers crossed that they'll let her stand beside them. Small wishes...


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## Maple

Courtney said:


> Well, I spoke to the barn owner and it went very well. I called him up today since I didn’t see him on the weekend and I don’t like to interrupt him at home on the weekends, and I let him know that I was going to be moving Vanna on Saturday. He sounded a little bit surprised, even though I had warned him I was going to move my horse in the spring time anyway.
> 
> Me: Would you like me to deliver a written notice to you, and pay my board in full to March 30?
> Him: You’re a nice kid and I don’t want to hang you out to dry. How about you figure out what 10 days of board costs and we’ll call it even?
> 
> Wow. I was prepared (and expecting) to pay for March at both barns, but it’s a really nice surprise to my budget that I don’t have to. Now I'm feeling even more stoked about the move!


Well done you! Thats a fantastic result, and let us know how Vanna settles into her new home


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## LAhorses

For only $50.00 more and you get way more perks I would move.


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## Courtney

All moved! At around 4pm yesterday, I went to my new barn and hopped in the truck with my new BO to pick up my mare. Aside from a sudden apprehension of the small barn that we had to pass to get to the trailer, Vanna practically loaded herself. 15 minutes later, we were unloading at the new place and Vanna has three pens to herself. Because she is the only horse in the back pens for now, they moved a few panels so she would have more room to move around. When we unloaded her, all her future herd mates were crowded at the gate and watching. She stepped off the trailer and nickered to them, and they all nickered back. After we threw her some hay and gave her some water, I hung around to make sure she was settling in. For the entire time I was there, she stood at the front of her pen, talking to the horses across the way. I hope this is the start of a beautiful friendship for her and those horses. Heh.

When I get out there today, Vanna is starting some basic training. The BO spread some shavings in the round pen and a bit of manure to melt the ice, so it should be safe to do a little bit of work with Vanna in there. If not, I guess I'll just have to spend a few hours cleaning her up instead. Compared to the show horses in that barn, Vanna looks practically feral with her fuzzy coat and overgrown (and half chewed) mane.


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## ChingazMyBoy

That is so good that the move is already going well for Vanna. I honestly think you made the right choice for your horse - while horses are animals and that is their way of communication after three months, I too would be moving my horse. I'm really happy that she is enjoying it already at her new home. You'll quickly notice a positive change in her behaviour, etc too. Soon as we moved my horse from a place where he had small, individual, grass lacking paddocks. To a massive facility with arenas, yards, a huuuggge grassy field he became SO happy and adapted more 'herd-instincts' in his work, specially ground work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Courtney

After spending the day with my mare, I'm convinced that this move was the right one for my girl. When I showed up today, she was standing quietly in her pen, relaxed and happy. One of her hind legs was cocked, her ears were flopping and her eyes were closed. She wasn't watching her surroundings warily at all. When she heard my foot steps, she raised her head and met me at the gate to her pen. She stood while I haltered her and we worked on some groundwork. For the first time in a long time, she was completely focused on me. The stress I'd felt radiating from her even two days ago was gone and she was ready to work and learn. 

Within half an hour, I had looped her lead line over her neck and she was following my vocal cues. Walk on, back, over... she was right there with me. She never placed a hoof wrong, stopping as soon as I did, walking forward and side-stepping when I did. When I pointed to her tail, she shifted her hind end away and spun in circles around me. When I jogged forward, she matched her pace to mine, keeping her muzzle on my shoulder. She saw raised poles for the first time today and very carefully stepped over them. When I told her to watch her feet, she lowered her head and carefully stepped over every obstacle in her way. No hesitation, no veering off... if I asked her to go over it, she did.

Then I spent nearly 2 hours grooming her while she sighed in pleasure. She wasn't tied and was free to move away when she wanted, but she chose to stay with me. Her 'whoa' is strong and she immediately stops when she hears that command. She even allowed me to thin and clean up her mane without being tied, and then allowed me to deworm her sans halter. Most surprisingly, she didn't budge when hay was thrown into her pen... she stayed beside me as I rubbed her ears.

Today was a good day. I'm so happy that my girl is back and she feels safe and secure in her new home. I feel bad that she was so obviously upset at her last barn, but I didn't realize quite how bad it was until I saw how happy she is at her new home. It was a good move, a wise one.


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## qh21797

For fifty bucks.....ideos!! lol


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