# Western horse head position.



## SorrelHorse

I wish I could tell you. -sigh-

I've been dying to finish Jester's ROM's but I can't because his head set is level wit hhis body and you won't get anything good unless your horses nose leaves tracks in the dirt.

I mean, really. I took him to a trail class last summer. EVERY SINGLE HORSE spooked at the tarp, wouldn't open the gate, and only two people crossed the bridge. Hmph! Some trail horses.

So I took Jester in and I made him look at all the obstacles, but he just went along over everything. Danced all over the tarp, sidepassed to open the gate, and without even a moments hesitation her went right over the bridges. His haunch turns were perfect (Reining horse  ) and he went through every obstacle with no problem. Even the rubber carwash thing he didn't even flick his ears.

And we got _last place. _Judge's reasoning: His head was up too far. W T F? Those horses all had their nose buried in the dirt but they spooked and wouldn't cross abstacles, the most anyone ever did was half the course. We even did it in a respectable time.

What is this world coming to?


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## thunderhooves

Its not all western. I don't have their head as ow, as I don't do WP. I just trail ride a gymkhana.

I rode a WP horse one time with a WP instructor, while my mare was on stall rest with a splint bone. Needless to say, key word is *once. never did that again. It's not even very pleasure-ful. their lope is all weird and funny, and you have to concentrate so much at home when you practise to keep them going at a good pace and their heads low and such. I don't see the "pleasure" in that. Plus the position the rider has to be in all the time is uncomfy, at least for me. The horse and rider both usually look stiff/rigid. Just MHO.

I find my western pleasure as "western fun". Its just hopping on and riding for fun. lol. I mean, I think its the AQHA/APHA WP thats so messed. Compare AQHA WP:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3579/3407682266_c8bd30a5e1.jpg

with this:
http://www.ladyluckranch.com/horses/roxie/roxie600.jpg

its amazing. Which one looks more beautiful and pleasure-ful?

Plus, it just doesn't look comfy for the horse. Now, it may be entirely different, but that what it looks like, even if its not true.
EDIT
Look at the first 2 min of this vid:




The lope on this morgan looks UGLY:





I guess the point is to be slow, but I guess it doesn't have to be pretty.....*


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## PaintsPwn

Here we go again.


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## twh

I personally think that whoever came up with the head position for a horse in WP had a screw loose. It looks unnatural, and the whole look of the horse reminds me of one of those exhausted horses in the war memorials.

It also can bring on a lot of nasty training methods: I know a trainer who's trying to get an Arab to get his head down for WP. This particular Arab loves holding his head way up high, so the garbage that trainer is pulling on him to get his head down...


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## shesinthebarn

PaintsPwn said:


> Here we go again.


 ya, ditto...


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## farmpony84

I think what happened was someone had a great horse that carried his head slightly lower then the rest. people mimiced. Another great horse came along that carried his head even lower... people followed, then... another great horse came along.....and so on and so forth...


I've seen horses tied like that at shows. They pin in EVERY class, bring home the big wins. Their eyes are dull and they look like they've gone deep inside themselves, they have little personality and I think it's how they survive the miserable place they are in. I wonder if that's how they live their life, at home, tied all the time.

I want to win big, I want to pin high. I just love my horses personality so much and I want to go in the ring and know that I won because I'm that good. Or because my horse is that good. Not because my trainer knows all of the tricks in the book. My trainer actually knows the tricks because when I see something and I ask why, she can tell me, she just chooses not to use all those tricks.....


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## PaintsPwn

> My trainer actually knows the tricks because when I see something and I ask why, she can tell me, she just chooses not to use all those tricks.....


Or perhaps she doesn't, and she's being ignorant like most of the people who are bashing the same thing over and over and over and over again.

Horses never look like they're enjoying themselves in dressage either, yet no one dares to bash the cranked nose band, double bridle, tail swishing discipline.

Why was this thread even started? TO bash. That's why. Just like so many others, and honestly I'm sick of it.


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## Allison Finch

Regardless of what you see, this is what you are SUPPOSED to be seeing, as decreed by the AQHA;

nose is carried behind the vertical consistently.
464. WESTERN PLEASURE
(a) A good pleasure horse has a free-flowing stride of reasonable
length in keeping with his conformation. He should cover a reasonable
amount of ground with little effort. Ideally, *he should have a
balanced, flowing motion, while exhibiting correct gaits that are of
the proper cadence.* The quality of the movement and the consistency
of the gaits is a major consideration. He should carry his head and
neck in a relaxed, natural position, *with his poll level with or slightly
above the level of the withers. He should not carry his head behind
the vertical*, giving the appearance of intimidation, or be excessively
nosed out, giving a resistant appearance. His head should be level
with his nose slightly in front of the vertical, having a bright expression
with his ears alert. He should be shown on a reasonably loose
rein, but with light contact and control. He should be responsive, yet
smooth, in transitions when called for. When asked to extend, he
should move out with the same flowing motion. Maximum credit
should be given to the flowing, balanced and willing horse that gives
the appearance of being fit and a pleasure to ride.
(b) A show may have up to three western

Unfortunately, judges are......?????


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## Honeysuga

PaintsPwn said:


> Or perhaps she doesn't, and she's being ignorant like most of the people who are bashing the same thing over and over and over and over again.
> 
> Horses never look like they're enjoying themselves in dressage either, yet no one dares to bash the cranked nose band, double bridle, tail swishing discipline.
> 
> Why was this thread even started? TO bash. That's why. Just like so many others, and honestly I'm sick of it.


1. She said she can point it out, not that she is bashing anything. And SO WHAT if anyone is bashing anyone over and over, as long as people see a problem they will talk about it. I highly doubt some one is ignorant(ya know as in unknowng, what that word means) just because you think the point is moot, don't read it of you don't like it. If the only way people on here could post is if it was a new topic every time, I am positive the forum would die, everything at this point is pretty much cliche.

2. Yes, they do. People bash them just as much.

3. So, what is your problem? Don't read the thread if you don't like it. Let them have their little bashing party if they want you, noone said a thing about you here, no need to defend something that has nothing to do with you personally.


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## wild_spot

> Or perhaps she doesn't, and she's being ignorant like most of the people who are bashing the same thing over and over and over and over again.
> 
> Horses never look like they're enjoying themselves in dressage either, yet no one dares to bash the cranked nose band, double bridle, tail swishing discipline.
> 
> Why was this thread even started? TO bash. That's why. Just like so many others, and honestly I'm sick of it.


LOL! Really? You've NEVER seen dressage bashing? Heard of Rollkur?


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## thunderhooves

Oh ya. You can see the "smoothness" in this lope*eye roll*





This is a real peanut-roller:





No offence to those WP riders on this forum that love what they do, but serious WP(IMHO) is all about "The Lower, The Slower".


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## SorrelHorse

Western pleasure should be about having a pleasureable ride. The horses nowadays have been broke to death and they have bad methods. I mean, I'm all for having a nice, calm, well-broke horse but only if that horse is happy.


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## thunderhooves

SorrelHorse said:


> Western pleasure should be about having a pleasureable ride. The horses nowadays have been broke to death and they have bad methods. I mean, I'm all for having a nice, calm, well-broke horse but only if that horse is happy.


Yep! Exactly!
And as a side note: At least most people think dressage looks pretty! WP doesn't, IMHO. It gives western riding a bad name. AGain, just MY opinion. You don't have to like it.


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## nrhareiner

Trainers train for what wins. Riders ride what wins breeders breed what wins. Judges can only judge what is put in front of them. So if you do not like what is out there then put something different in front of the judges and hope that it is what the judges want to see.


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## qtrhrsecrazy

I was told they've gotten away from the ditch diggers, that now QH's are back to level with the back and thats how we were training - level


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## Honeysuga

^^That is the movement yes, but it is not 100%, or even close for that matter. They seem to be working on it though. And I agree with SorrelHorse too, BTW. Don't whine because you don't place by doing the right thing, just be patient, respect your horse,continue to follow the rules and ask for proper movement, and hope the right thing comes back into vogue.


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## Peetz

PaintsPwn said:


> Or perhaps she doesn't, and she's being ignorant like most of the people who are bashing the same thing over and over and over and over again.
> 
> Horses never look like they're enjoying themselves in dressage either, yet no one dares to bash the cranked nose band, double bridle, tail swishing discipline.
> 
> Why was this thread even started? TO bash. That's why. Just like so many others, and honestly I'm sick of it.


Possilby you need to go back and read my post. I never bashed anyone or anything. I simply was asking WHY it is that way and WHY people like it, or think it is the " proper" way a horse should go. I asked to HELP me to understand the rationale behind it. If you think we are all bashing it, please educate me on WHY it is like that, and don't give me that " because it is" line. 
What makes you think I would bash western and not dressage? " yet no one dares" you don't know me that well. So please, without being nasty or rude, please help me to understand your rationale for the low western headset.


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## Honeysuga

*Peetz*, there really is no rationale other than people do it to win. as has been said, somewhere down the line someone with a good deal of sway probably decided that was right and others followed, thus the peanut roller epidemic began. Now even though some are trying to change things, others will defend it to the end and become rude and unwilling to even try to explain why. That is just what happens... 

The same with all other odd horse shower practices like keeping a grazing animal stalled 24 hours a day and fed only a concentrated diet,, purposefully "jet lagging" a horse by keeping it under lights 24 hours a day to keep it form taking part in the natural shedding cycle, keeping them wrapped from head to tail to prevent the ANIMAL from getting dirty or blemished heaven forbid, physically altering a horses body to make it move unnaturally or to prevent it from showing discomfort, bleeding a horse out to make it more docile, using irritants and chemicals to alter how a horse moves, ect.... It is all about the ribbon.


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## nrhareiner

Like I stated in my post earlier. If that is all that is being presented to the judges then that is what they have to work with and place. SO it is what ends up winning. Then what wins it was is bred for what is trained for and what is shown. It comes down to a vicious circle.

WP is not like Dressage or Reining or cutting or reined cow horse. The judge has to place a horse first second third and so on. There is no way to judge past that if what is winning is correct or would win in other company. Where with the other disciplines I listed you can. Each horse is give a score so even if a horse wins they can easily be compared to a horse from a different show. You know who good that horse really is compared to the standard. With WP and some other events you can not.

So until some one enters a horse that is correct with good movement that is well trained nothing can change. If the horse is not there the judge can only place what is presented to him. It is that simple.


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## Peetz

Honeysuga said:


> ^^That is the movement yes, but it is not 100%, or even close for that matter. They seem to be working on it though. And I agree with SorrelHorse too, BTW. Don't whine because you don't place by doing the right thing, just be patient, respect your horse,continue to follow the rules and ask for proper movement, and hope the right thing comes back into vogue.


Glad to hear the "movement" is at least happening. But, I am not one to stand by and hope it comes back into vogue either. Things get changed becuase we make them change. I say stand up for your " doing the right thing", let those in charge know what the majority wants and remind them of the rules that are written on how it should be. There is nothing wrong with fighting for what is right, or what you feel is right. 
On the other hand, IF a horse carries his head that low NATURALY, then it is the natural set for that horse, others should not be forced into that set, nor judged down becuase their " natural" set is different than others'. 

Any WP judges out there care to tell me why they look for that? or if they judge down or not due to the head set.?


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## Honeysuga

They dont look for it, they just judge what they have been brought. If every horse in a class is incorrect, they stil have to give a first second and third... Just how it goes.


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## kevinshorses

As I have said many times on this forum, the really atrocious part of WP is the gates the horses are forced into. Now many of the WP riders on hear will tell you that it is getting better and horses are moving freer but the world champion horses are still dragging a hind leg at a "lope" and making a mess of a trot as well. Judges don't have to give any ribbons if they don't want to. If I went to judge a class and I called for a lope and felt like no horse actually did it I would disqualify the whole class. Chances are really good that would be the last show that I ever judged but it would make a memorable statement. If I were to show in a WP or trail class I would make sure that I recorded the entire thing and if I felt that the winner should not have won I would take it up with the judge and the show commitee. It would be hard to argue with that kind of evidence.


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## Honeysuga

The drag leg thing I totally agree with, someone posted the WC on another thread saying oooh, she looks natural and free and collected... she looked like Igor dragging her leg behind her to have it on the ground for balance, lurching forward in that pitiful gait... hey, a new name for it instead of "lope your horses please" it should be "LURCH your horses please" more accurate anyway.


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## trailhorserider

thunderhooves said:


> Its not all western. I don't have their head as ow, as I don't do WP. I just trail ride a gymkhana.
> 
> I rode a WP horse one time with a WP instructor, while my mare was on stall rest with a splint bone. Needless to say, key word is *once. never did that again. It's not even very pleasure-ful. their lope is all weird and funny, and you have to concentrate so much at home when you practise to keep them going at a good pace and their heads low and such. I don't see the "pleasure" in that. Plus the position the rider has to be in all the time is uncomfy, at least for me. The horse and rider both usually look stiff/rigid. Just MHO.
> 
> I find my western pleasure as "western fun". Its just hopping on and riding for fun. lol. I mean, I think its the AQHA/APHA WP thats so messed. Compare AQHA WP:
> 
> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3579/3407682266_c8bd30a5e1.jpg
> 
> with this:
> http://www.ladyluckranch.com/horses/roxie/roxie600.jpg
> 
> its amazing. Which one looks more beautiful and pleasure-ful?
> 
> Plus, it just doesn't look comfy for the horse. Now, it may be entirely different, but that what it looks like, even if its not true.
> EDIT
> Look at the first 2 min of this vid:
> YouTube- AQHA Western Pleasure Video
> The lope on this morgan looks UGLY:
> YouTube- morgan stallion western pleasure - Baccarat's Visionary
> 
> I guess the point is to be slow, but I guess it doesn't have to be pretty.....*


*

I don't know about everyone else, but I would rather have my trail horse move like the Morgan in the video than the Quarter Horse in the video. She's not as bad as some, but the Morgan looks like he has a lot more impulsion from behind and would be a blast to ride. You would feel like you had some horse power under you. I guess that's what bothers me about the WP QH's, they move like they only 1/4 the horse power. :lol:*


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## trailhorserider

thunderhooves said:


> Oh ya. You can see the "smoothness" in this lope*eye roll*
> YouTube - This Invitations Fancy


God that's an awful lope. If one of my horse's moved like that I would wear some spurs and kick them right out of it. Or retire them as a lawn ornament. I wouldn't want a $500 trail horse moving like that. Is it so awful for a horse to MOVE? I don't mean be disobedient, but actually move out a little? With some impulsion from behind?

I would like to see western pleasure more like reining horses. You can leave out the sliding stops and the spins, but seriously, let the horses canter normally!


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## farmpony84

PaintsPwn said:


> *Or perhaps she doesn't, and she's being ignorant like most of the people who are bashing the same thing over and over and over and over again.*
> 
> Horses never look like they're enjoying themselves in dressage either, yet no one dares to bash the cranked nose band, double bridle, tail swishing discipline.
> 
> *Why was this thread even started? TO bash. That's why. Just like so many others, and honestly I'm sick of it*.


I'm not really sure why you felt the need to put that statement out there the way you did, but since you did, I'd like to let you know that I took a great offense to it. I feel that you typed that statement just to get a rise out of me and turn this thread into a hot topic so that it can quickly be moderated, closed, and possibly removed.

My trainer is a very good person. She has been in the AQHA Circuit for quite some time now, that's why she knows the tricks. She is not showing it to me and bashing. I am pointing things out to her and asking...why do they do that? and she explains it. The pro's and the cons. She is just not the kind of trainer that will go to some of those extremes. 

Why are any of these threads ever started? Sometimes they are actually started because someone really truley has a question. Not everyone has ill-thoughts when the post topics.

As for dressage, what does that have to do with this thread? Absolutely nothing, other then the fact that you yourself know that some of these methods exist and you are trying to point out the fact that it's not just this discipline. We got that. EVERY discipline has it's skeletons.


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## Peetz

I have a drive to know why things are the way they are. At my next show I will ask the judges why they place horses the way they do and see what they have to say. As a current college students ( RN, BSN, forensic nursing) I love to use the " I am doing a paper on" line and they seem to respond favorably. I am not out to bash anyone or anything, simply to gain a better understanding of why people to the things they do and follow trends IF they feel they are not so proper. It is more of a research into the thinking patters of a person than the head set of a horse ( I suppose). If I can get one [judge] to question the practice and make they ask themselves " why DO I judge that way?" Then.....


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## GottaRide

Peetz said:


> I have a drive to know why things are the way they are. At my next show I will ask the judges why they place horses the way they do and see what they have to say. As a current college students ( RN, BSN, forensic nursing) I love to use the " I am doing a paper on" line and they seem to respond favorably. I am not out to bash anyone or anything, simply to gain a better understanding of why people to the things they do and follow trends IF they feel they are not so proper. It is more of a research into the thinking patters of a person than the head set of a horse ( I suppose). If I can get one [judge] to question the practice and make they ask themselves " why DO I judge that way?" Then.....


I've spent lots of time in the middle of the ring next to the judges & have asked this same question. The judges have always been very informative & make it easy to understand. 

I think you will find out that the judges do not really consider the headset of the horse in their placings. They look at how the horse moves, how broke it is, how responsive to the rider it is, etc. The headset is only one small part of the whole picture that the judge sees. What does the judge do if the head is in an ideal position, yet the horse picks up the wrong lead? Breaks gait? Has a rider that is hindering the horse? There will be another horse in the class that might have a lower headset, but had a flawless performance by a welll-seasoned rider that will have to be placed ahead of the horse with the more ideal headset position. 

WP riders make it look easy, what ever it is that they do. But if you were really going to give WP a shot, you'll find out it's a whole different story when you set out to get your horse ready for a WP class. I have a feeling if some of the people that have posted on this thread & the other WP "bashing" threads truly give WP a try, they will find a whole new appreciation for it. It's like your mama should have told you when you were growing up: "Don't knock it til you try it." 



<Now I'm going out to ride my 3 yr old who WANTS to hang his head at his knees & I have to constantly remind him to pick it up and at least carry it level.>


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## SorrelHorse

Good idea, Peetz. I might have to do that too. Post your results so maybe we can shed some light on this god-awful thing.


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## Allison Finch

nrhareiner said:


> Trainers train for what wins. Riders ride what wins breeders breed what wins. Judges can only judge what is put in front of them. So if you do not like what is out there then put something different in front of the judges and hope that it is what the judges want to see.


 
I think it has to START with the judges. They determine what wins, therefore what is produced. If the judges stick to the standards, eventually things will change.


Oh, and BTW, I have been in a show where the judges decided no one did things properly enough to get a blue ribbon. The places were from second on down. I was in that class and agreed that neither I, or anyone else, did things well enough. I applauded the judges courage.


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## thunderhooves

trailhorserider said:


> I don't know about everyone else, but I would rather have my trail horse move like the Morgan in the video than the Quarter Horse in the video. She's not as bad as some, but the Morgan looks like he has a lot more impulsion from behind and would be a blast to ride. You would feel like you had some horse power under you. I guess that's what bothers me about the WP QH's, they move like they only 1/4 the horse power. :lol:


I agree about the Morgan thing, I just meant his lope looked like a 1/2 rear at every stride, but her looks better-maybe not as smooth,but- better than those QH's.



Honeysuga said:


> The drag leg thing I totally agree with, someone posted the WC on another thread saying oooh, she looks natural and free and collected... she looked like Igor dragging her leg behind her to have it on the ground for balance, lurching forward in that pitiful gait... hey, a new name for it instead of "lope your horses please" it should be "*LURCH *your horses please" more accurate anyway.


Lurching is a different thing... I think its what those TWH's do when they have stacks and chains on. Maybe "DRAG your horses,please." Because thats what they are almost doing because they are sooo slow!


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## BlueJayWay

Haha, Good luck to me, I'm entering my Arab for Western Pleasure in a show...


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## SorrelHorse

thunderhooves said:


> Lurching is a different thing... I think its what those TWH's do when they have stacks and chains on. Maybe "DRAG your horses,please." Because thats what they are almost doing because they are sooo slow!


Thank you! That is exactly what I was thinking. You'd think they'd want the horses to engage in the hind end a little bit more, instead of drag...drag....drag....I swear, there's straight lines where they've moved 'cause their feet like, never leave the ground. I mean, honestly. Get a little spirit in that horse!


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## smrobs

If I was offered a world champion WP horse for free, I would turn it down. I have ridden some WP horses and I don't like it. It always feels like they are about to just buckle out from under me and God forbid there be a little bump or a rock in the road, they drag their feet so much they would probably trip over it. I understand all the training that it gets to make a horse move like that, my Dad trained show horses for close to 30 years, but it really serves no purpose other than to win in the show ring. I could never ride a trail on a horse like that because his face would get all scratched up by the weeds and he wouldn't be able to see where he was going. I could never work cattle on a horse like that because like RiosDad once said, it would take 3 days to push the cattle out of the back 40. I could never sort cattle on one because they can't move fast enough. I understand wanting a horse that is incredibly broke, but that is the problem, so many of those horses are _broke_. Do they make good beginner horses? Yes. But, what happens when the beginner gets a little more advanced and is ready to step it up a little bit? The horse has to go away for re-training so that they can move more _naturally_.

I don't like it and will never own a WP horse, but I can't change the minds of others. Just don't tell me that they move naturally, cause they don't. If it was natural for a horse to do that, it wouldn't take hours of specialized training every week to get them to move like that.


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## Honeysuga

Once again Smrobs, I applaud you dear. You make a rational argument as to why you do not like the movement, who can argue with that logic? I especially like the "Just don't tell me that they move naturally, cause they don't. If it was natural for a horse to do that, it wouldn't take hours of specialized training every week to get them to move like that." That is exactly it, if it was natural in the least they would not have to spend all those long hours to teach the horse to do it.

​


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## Tasia

I was always taught that the head is level with the withers. My WP is not one of those horses who drag my horse is collected and pushes from behind he is faster. We win. it impresses people to see a well controled old fashiond WP horse not a horse who's nose touches the ground.
Just my .02


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## thunderhooves

This picture looks how I think a WP should move/look:
http://quarterhorse.ws/qbfarm/images/danni_and_lil.jpg
Sadly, the judges would probably favor this:
http://www.postquarterhorses.com/html/uploaded_images/ruby111-784434.jpg


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## Peetz

thunderhooves said:


> This picture looks how I think a WP should move/look:
> http://quarterhorse.ws/qbfarm/images/danni_and_lil.jpg
> Sadly, the judges would probably favor this:
> http://www.postquarterhorses.com/html/uploaded_images/ruby111-784434.jpg


 
That is what I am talking about! I have seen shows where the winner can not transition from walk to trot without hopping and head bobbing, can't get the correct lead for half way around the ring while the other four horse and riders seemed ( I say seemed because I am not a judge) to do these things well, without issues and when asked why they placed the horses in the winning orders, the responce was " their heads were way to high!" The winning horse carries himself properly." Yes, we were all shocked. If I had the wear-with-all about me I would have asked for clarification at that time. The rider looked as if she would fall over his head any moment during the class, no wonder he stumbles at the transition! 
Just seems discouraging, may have to go out of town to do a show. 

Another question. Do they [judges] consider breed in a WP show when they judge? I could use my TB gelding, he has a great English/dressage head set naturally. lol


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## Moe10

SorrelHorse said:


> And we got _last place. _Judge's reasoning: His head was up too far. W T F? Those horses all had their nose buried in the dirt but they spooked and wouldn't cross abstacles, the most anyone ever did was half the course. We even did it in a respectable time.
> 
> What is this world coming to?


In trail, the judges want the horse to lower its head to the obstacles. I do not know why they want trail horses do lower their heads to the ground, but they do. Hence why if you wanna do trail, your horse's head better be to the ground. I think this is NOT TRUE "trail horses" to me, trail is normal clothing and a relaxed and fun horse. Speed doesnt matter and neither does head postition.


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## GottaRide

Moe10 said:


> In trail, the judges want the horse to lower its head to the obstacles. I do not know why they want trail horses do lower their heads to the ground, but they do. Hence why if you wanna do trail, your horse's head better be to the ground. I think this is NOT TRUE "trail horses" to me, trail is normal clothing and a relaxed and fun horse. Speed doesnt matter and neither does head postition.


 
What you are referring to shows the judge that the horse is looking at the obstacles as they approach. It's something I would want my trail horses to do when they come across something new out on the trails. You usually see the horses lower their head when the come up to the bridge or start off over a series of ground poles.

Here's a random youtube video of a trail class. Notice the horse lowers his head at the bridge, but for the rest of the pattern his head is at or above level.


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## thunderhooves

Moe10 said:


> In trail, the judges want the horse to lower its head to the obstacles. I do not know why they want trail horses do lower their heads to the ground, but they do. Hence why if you wanna do trail, your horse's head better be to the ground. I think this is NOT TRUE "trail horses" to me, trail is normal clothing and a relaxed and fun horse. Speed doesnt matter and neither does head postition.


exactly. In that vid somone posted above me, it doesn't seem like its very trail=ish. Its flat ground with 5 inches of "dust" over it, and its all very trained.
where are the hills the horse has to slide down, the water and ditches to cross, trees to duck under, logs to hop over? All I see is a small bridge, backing in circles, backing(which I don't deny you do on the trail somtimes), and slowww walking/trotting. Heck, there wasn't even a gate to open/close! 
Real trails arent somthing you practise over and over again. They're somthing that varys a lot each time you ride out there. susally with non-flat and soft terrain. Hmm......... Of course you can practise things for out on the trail, like hoping over small logs and working on things to insure that the horse is prepared, but..ya.
Thats my opinion


----------



## I love Arabs

Please dont bash the discipline, its not our falt your horses cant do it 

For those of you who apparently are not up to date on their facts it is actually wanted in the ring that horses have their heads level with their withers. I just had a talk with a barrel racer a while a go and they told me that if you can stay on then you are an awesome rider... well I beg to differ. I dont think there is a "best sport" so just drop it guys I dont care if you like the discipline or not! I never hear people bashing and talking about more important things... what about when people have saddle CRUSHING on their horses spines I here NO ONE saying anything about that... so drop it. I love my horse and he is amazing at what he does he can trail ride, work cows, barrel race, jump, but best of all do WP. Just stop the bashing-OKAY! Its unfortanate that every thread ends up like like im sorry to the OP.


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## kevinshorses

I love Arabs said:


> Please dont bash the discipline, its not our falt your horses cant do it
> 
> For those of you who apparently are not up to date on their facts it is actually wanted in the ring that horses have their heads level with their withers. I just had a talk with a barrel racer a while a go and they told me that if you can stay on then you are an awesome rider... well I beg to differ. I dont think there is a "best sport" so just drop it guys I dont care if you like the discipline or not! I never here people bashing and talking about more important things... what about when people have saddle CRUSHING on their horses spines I here NO ONE saying anything about that... so drop it. I love my horse and he is amazing at what he does he can trail ride, work cows, barrel race, jump, but best of all do WP. Just stop the bashing-OKAY! Its unfortanate that every thread ends up like like im sorry to the OP.


You know the great thing about this media is that you don't have to read every post or thread. 

And it's H E A R as in "I never HEAR anyone bashing and talking about more important things". 

If you have never heard any other bashing or heated discussions then you haven't been paying attention because there have been alot of them.


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## I love Arabs

Fixed. I havent "heard" them but I have read them... does that count?


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## kevinshorses

I thought the trail horse in the video looked fine except for the tail extension. Those are just stupid. I liked that they had to lope over the poles and move with a little more speed and cadence. The horse really wanted to go slow and drag a leg but couldn't because of the poles on the ground.


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## Honeysuga

Great observation Kevin! But honestly I Love Arabs, that statement in your first post was very childish. Lets all try to be grown ups here and not act like we are five and on the elementary school playground. sheesh.


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## SorrelHorse

I love Arabs said:


> *Please dont bash the discipline, its not our falt your horses cant do it *
> 
> For those of you who apparently are not up to date on their facts it is actually wanted in the ring that horses have their heads level with their withers. I just had a talk with a barrel racer a while a go and they told me that if you can stay on then you are an awesome rider... well I beg to differ. I dont think there is a "best sport" so just drop it guys I dont care if you like the discipline or not! I never hear people bashing and talking about more important things... what about when people have saddle CRUSHING on their horses spines I here NO ONE saying anything about that... so drop it. I love my horse and he is amazing at what he does he can trail ride, work cows, barrel race, jump, but best of all do WP. Just stop the bashing-OKAY! Its unfortanate that every thread ends up like like im sorry to the OP.


Excuse me, but my horse _can _do it. *But she can do it with her* *head level to her body and she can do it without lurching and dragging her back legs.* It's much funner that way.

Sorry, little bit of temper. But honestly, if you don't like it don't read it. Like previously mentioned, the beauty of it is that you can choose not to read certain threads.


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## qtrhrsecrazy

People have different opinions, different likes, etc... would be pretty boring if we all had a herd mentality.. thought exactly alike.

Where the problem layes is when people get mad when someone else's opinion is different from their own. Each to their own


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## ridesapaintedpony

Allison Finch said:


> I think it has to START with the judges. They determine what wins, therefore what is produced. If the judges stick to the standards, eventually things will change.


This is starting to sound like dog shows. :wink:


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## Peetz

Pfffff. That is no trail horse. This is a trail horse. See the difference? 




 
My " trail " horses can do the pole thing, look pretty and do all the walk, trot stuff too. But can that horse do this trail course? Or haul into a wooded area they have never been to and ride for 8 or more hours looking for a lost 4 year old? ( though to have been taken by a mountain lion) 
PS. she was found a day and a half after she wandered off from her mountaintop home in Oregon, Thank the Lord. 

NOT bashing anyone's pretty, tail extended, below top-line head hanging, "trail" horse. Just wondering if they are truly trail ridden and how versatile they are, or if they are just an " arena trail" horse?


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## smrobs

99% of the time, I bet they are 'arena' trail horses. I wish that all trail classes were like the one that you posted. It is not exactly like what you find outside but pretty darn close, especially compared with those fake lets measure some trot pole patterns.


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## farmpony84

Peetz said:


> NOT bashing anyone's pretty, tail extended, below top-line head hanging, "trail" horse. Just wondering if they are truly trail ridden and how versatile they are, or if they are just an " arena trail" horse?


Dont be a hater:wink:


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## JustLeaveIt2Mya

i don't have my horses head dragging well actually pony, i have her head set to her withers or just a tiny bit below them, and we place very well 1st's 2nd's 3rd's out of 6 or 8 ponies...i don't like the drag my head in the dirt look either but, what would be the fun of showing if all the horses looked the same??


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## smrobs

Just to kinda get an idea of how much things like WP have changed, this mare placed in the top 3 in WP at the Appaloosa World Show in the late 70's.










And this is one of the competators at the world show in 2004.









Apparently, they don't commonly take pictures of the horses in the classes anymore. I had to kinda search to find that one.


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## roro

thunderhooves said:


> The lope on this morgan looks UGLY:
> YouTube- morgan stallion western pleasure - Baccarat's Visionary
> 
> I guess the point is to be slow, but I guess it doesn't have to be pretty.....


I'm not a WP person, but to me that horse looks pretty comfortable. The ears are listening and the horse doesn't look brain dead. The canter is due to the Morgan's conformation, I've ridden Morgans before and they all had that rocking horse style canter, although obviously with this horse it is slowed down for WP. I like what I see in this Morgan more than the average WP shows I see, although this is probably my personal taste. Regardless of discipline, I want to see a happy, comfortable, and responsive horse, and this Morgan fits those standards relatively well.


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## farmpony84

I can't see the 70's picture.


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## Peetz

farmpony84 said:


> Dont be a hater:wink:


 
I'm no a hater of western pleasure horses, fake trail horses or anyother disapline. What I am becoming a hater of is posts telling me I am!


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## thunderhooves

roro said:


> I'm not a WP person, but to me that horse looks pretty comfortable. The ears are listening and the horse doesn't look brain dead. The canter is due to the Morgan's conformation, I've ridden Morgans before and they all had that rocking horse style canter, although obviously with this horse it is slowed down for WP. I like what I see in this Morgan more than the average WP shows I see, although this is probably my personal taste. Regardless of discipline, I want to see a happy, comfortable, and responsive horse, and this Morgan fits those standards relatively well.


Yes, roro. I posted later that that horse looks so much better and funner than the QH WP horses. i just said the lope looks like he's half rearing to me, but you siad it better-a rocking horse canter slowed down. I love Morgans 



smrobs said:


> Just to kinda get an idea of how much things like WP have changed, this mare placed in the top 3 in WP at the Appaloosa World Show in the late 70's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And this is one of the competators at the world show in 2004.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Apparently, they don't commonly take pictures of the horses in the classes anymore. I had to kinda search to find that one.


Wow. Now THAT shocked me. What a difference! And you know what? I would rather ride the first one.


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## smrobs

farmpony84 said:


> I can't see the 70's picture.


Here, let me try it as an attachment. Let me know if it works.


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## farmpony84

I can see it on my home computer just not my work. Wierd huh? Anyway, that 70's horse, rides like my 26 year old, of course he was born and trained in the 80's. My 3 almost 4 year old rides like the second horse.... funny. I have both styles at my house!


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## Honeysuga

Smrobs, the horse int he '70's pic looks forward moving and comfortable. He is reaching with his hinds, has a very natural headset, is not built severely downhill, has nice moderate boning, has an alert and happy expression.* Now that is a Western Pleasure horse, truly looks like a pleasure to ride and work with!*


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## smrobs

Yeah, Dad always said that she was a really great horse to work with. I wonder whatever happened to her :?.


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## trailhorserider

Besides the way she carries her head, which is great, what I really like about the 70's horse is her conformation!

She is compact and muscular AND has nice bone and feet. I think too many horses these days are getting long and lanky and are fine boned and small footed. 

I want a horse that will be sound until it's 30, even if it gets ridden everyday!

I wish the stock horse people would get back to the foundation of the horse, which is it's feet and skeleton, and not get all caught up in adding muscle. What good is all the muscle if there isn't a strong foundation to carry it on?


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## Honeysuga

trailhorserider said:


> What good is all the muscle if there isn't a strong foundation to carry it on?


Couldn't agree more!


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## smrobs

That's one thing I love about my Mustangs. Dobe especially is really muscular and incredibly strong but I don't feel like he's gonna snap a leg running across the pasture. Brother gripes whenever he comes to trim his feet cause his hooves are crazy tough .


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## Honeysuga

Toms are like rasping on rocks, not too easy lol. He is a stocky little fellow too, nice short thick legs, short thick pasterns. I love that he is so durable. 

My registered QH was completely the opposite, she was like a pig on stilts...big heavily muscles, little tiny legs, tiny feet that were thin and brittle no matter what supplements she was on...


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## trailhorserider

My Mustang is a stocky little tank too! He's only 14.3 but he rides like a much bigger horse. And he can go barefoot almost anywhere. I just boot him sometimes because I am a worrier.

See pictures of him the "horses" section of my profile. I love, love love him! If I could get another one as well trained I would be a big Mustang believer. My guy comes from Wyoming and I bought him from a cowboy and saddlemaker, already trained. He was his roping and hunting horse.

I just don't understand why it is hard to find purebreds built as strongly. About the closest I have seen have been Hafflingers. I have been told old style Morgans look like him too. I would imagine he is mostly Quarter Horse, but gee, most Quarter Horses I have seen just don't have the bone structure. Muscles yes, and height yes, but not the bone and hoof structure.

I really like to think of him as a shrunken down Belgian. :lol:


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## kevinshorses

In between WW1 and WW2 almost all agriculture became mechanized. Untill then the large ranches in the west ran thier horse herd on the range when they were not being used. In the sping they would bring in the teams they needed for farming and the saddle horses they needed for the ranch work. When tractors replaced the teams and vehicles replaced some of the saddlehorses the horses didn't get brought in and Ta-Da we have the noble breed we call mustangs.


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## Honeysuga

Lol, I know right? Nothing noble about them really. Just mixed breed feral bred horses mostly form captive stock let loose. But one thing is they have not been bred down in bone and structure closely and inbred on purpose for generations... so mostly nature has taken its course and the hardier horses bred and Voila! hardy heavier boned tough little horses.


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## Angel5000

wow ur right that lope is ugly and i think it is lame that there heads have to be so low my horse is so sensitive and jumpy that her head is allway s popped up and looking for "scary things" lol


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## Powerstroke

GottaRide said:


> <Now I'm going out to ride my 3 yr old who WANTS to hang his head at his knees & I have to constantly remind him to pick it up and at least carry it level.>


I have a 5yr old with the same issue, he _wants_ to hang his head as low as possible. I am constantly picking it up. There _are_ horses out there that hang their heads low naturally.


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## StylishK

Powerstroke said:


> I have a 5yr old with the same issue, he _wants_ to hang his head as low as possible. I am constantly picking it up. There _are_ horses out there that hang their heads low naturally.


I have that problem as well. I will definitely have to pull his head up, but its not something I'm discouraging right now because last year he didn't want to give his head as much (he's young aha)

I think its all about whats natural for the horses. There are some horses that based on the way their neck is tied in, a headset lower than their whithers suits them. And there are horses who are better suited to a headset just above the whithers or level. 

I don't have a problem with any of those, I want something thats looks natural for the horse. I don't ask my horse to carry its head any higher or any lower than what they are comfortable doing. 

I'm more worried about what the body under me is doing. I focus more on collection and impulsion, and the head comes natural, it goes where it wants to fall. 

Thats the problem, there are too many people focusing on headset that they are forgetting that a natural WP head and neck from from having a horse that is engaged properly. So you see these manufactured low headsets that just look silly and in turn ruin the movement of the horse.


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## Ridehorses99

StylishK said:


> I'm more worried about what the body under me is doing. I focus more on collection and impulsion, and the head comes natural, it goes where it wants to fall.
> 
> Thats the problem, there are too many people focusing on headset that they are forgetting that a natural WP head and neck from from having a horse that is engaged properly. So you see these manufactured low headsets that just look silly and in turn ruin the movement of the horse.


Well said. My trainer has been working exclusively with my and my WP gelding on collection and impulsion.....the head will fall where it needs to once we have that engrained. We don't have the "lame lope" and we never will. We pass lots of riders in the jog and lope in our classes, but my horse is also big and long and covers quite a bit of ground. With that said, we have been placing in every WP and Trail class with 20 or more horses(including breed shows and large 4-H and Open shows) as the judges around here are actually penalizing people for 4-beat lopes and 4-beat jogs. I hope this continues as it is much more pleasurable to watch and ride horses that move freely and naturally.


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## StylishK

Ridehorses99 said:


> Well said. My trainer has been working exclusively with my and my WP gelding on collection and impulsion.....the head will fall where it needs to once we have that engrained. We don't have the "lame lope" and we never will. We pass lots of riders in the jog and lope in our classes, but my horse is also big and long and covers quite a bit of ground. With that said, we have been placing in every WP and Trail class with 20 or more horses(including breed shows and large 4-H and Open shows) as the judges around here are actually penalizing people for 4-beat lopes and 4-beat jogs. I hope this continues as it is much more pleasurable to watch and ride horses that move freely and naturally.


Exactly, and you place better because you're overall flow is probably much better and everything work, and in the end your horse ends up moving better, at his potential. Now I've known plenty of horses who CAN go slow its easy for them, but not every horse can. If you horse can't go slow then don't make it go slow because it looks silly. 

My gelding, while we aren't focusing on pleasure this year because mental he isn't ready for it, when we do get it down he's probably going to be able to go REALLY slow, but he's going to look better if I push him forward that little bit and it still won't be overly fast but it'll look cleaner. 

WP now isn't about being the slowest horses in the pen anymore (there still may be some horses who are too slow, but its changing). I'd rather see a horse a little more forward with cleaner legs, then slowed down way to much and look half-crippled.


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## CountryJay

Ugh I posted this earlier and it didn't work. So here I go again. I will say what iI have as my opinion and I do not mean to be offensive to anyone. I highly dislike the level headset because it is unnatural for _most_ horses. It is not what you would see when you think of a drop dead gorgeous horse. 
And the slow jog and lope is agonizing. I actually trained my horse to be show slow at the jog and it was so uncomfotable. Every horse that I have ridden with an level headset has had rough gaits to go along wih them. It is almost a jarring feeling. But I am also a person who prefers to gallop, rather than trot or jog.
I show in pleasure and I will tell you this. I don't plan on getting many ribbons in ring classes and maybe some patterns if I do them in western because my new horse will not set her head low let alone go slow.


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## StylishK

CountryJay said:


> Ugh I posted this earlier and it didn't work. So here I go again. I will say what iI have as my opinion and I do not mean to be offensive to anyone. I highly dislike the level headset because it is unnatural for _most_ horses. It is not what you would see when you think of a drop dead gorgeous horse.
> And the slow jog and lope is agonizing. I actually trained my horse to be show slow at the jog and it was so uncomfotable. Every horse that I have ridden with an level headset has had rough gaits to go along wih them. It is almost a jarring feeling. But I am also a person who prefers to gallop, rather than trot or jog.
> I show in pleasure and I will tell you this. I don't plan on getting many ribbons in ring classes and maybe some patterns if I do them in western because my new horse will not set her head low let alone go slow.


See I find the jog a beautiful feeling, same with the lope, but horses that aren't ment to do it often feel uncomfortable.

A "beautiful" horse is a subjective opinion it varies. I don't let the level of the neck determine what is and what isn't beautiful  

Most pleasure horses are actually built to have an about level head set. My gelding looks silly when he brings it much more above level because of how his neck ties in. 

If you don't like pleasure why do you even bother showing in it? Not trying to be offensive but it just doesn't make sense. I don't like barrel racing, hence I don't show it (disclaimer: nothing against the discipline at all its just not for me).


----------



## CountryJay

StylishK said:


> If you don't like pleasure why do you even bother showing in it? Not trying to be offensive but it just doesn't make sense. I don't like barrel racing, hence I don't show it .


Because it is fun when it is biased on if you look like a million bucks or not. And also, it's something to do, and the shows are good training for my horse not to speed around like the devil in an arena.


----------



## StylishK

CountryJay said:


> Because it is fun when it is biased on if you look like a million bucks or not. And also, it's something to do, and the shows are good training for my horse not to speed around like the devil in an arena.


It's not as much about having the most expensive saddle, or the most expensive outfit as much as people think. While to some judges it does matter. A GOOD judge is going to place the best moving horse even if they aren't being ridden in a harris. Now of course horse and rider should look well put together, but the best mover should be winning assuming they are going around correctly. Now unfortunately not all judges are this way...but I think you hit bad judges in every event. 

I'm sorry you haven't experienced as many good ones (it appears that its that way, not sure if it is), its a shame, because there are some GREAT judges out there who care more about the horse than what type of saddle someone is wearing ahha.  Hopefully you'll run into a good one one day, because it's a lot more challenging then it appears and can be lots of fun.... (although reining still get my vote ahha.) --the best is when you take your reiner to a QH show, show in HMS, and actually win ahha. Although your competitors tend not to be overly thrilled.


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## CountryJay

StylishK said:


> It's not as much about having the most expensive saddle, or the most expensive outfit as much as people think. While to some judges it does matter. A GOOD judge is going to place the best moving horse even if they aren't being ridden in a harris. Now of course horse and rider should look well put together, but the best mover should be winning assuming they are going around correctly. Now unfortunately not all judges are this way...but I think you hit bad judges in every event.
> 
> I'm sorry you haven't experienced as many good ones (it appears that its that way, not sure if it is), its a shame, because there are some GREAT judges out there who care more about the horse than what type of saddle someone is wearing ahha.  Hopefully you'll run into a good one one day, because it's a lot more challenging then it appears and can be lots of fun.... (although reining still get my vote ahha.) --the best is when you take your reiner to a QH show, show in HMS, and actually win ahha. Although your competitors tend not to be overly thrilled.


 
I guess I ahve never experienced a good judge, unless it is in English rail classes, pony calsses (well, about 95% of them), and gymkana rail classes. But hopefully, I will get to experience one someday. Hopefully. *Crosses Fingers* But from what I have experienced, there are not enough "fair" judges who jusge on what really matters.


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## StylishK

CountryJay said:


> I guess I ahve never experienced a good judge, unless it is in English rail classes, pony calsses (well, about 95% of them), and gymkana rail classes. But hopefully, I will get to experience one someday. Hopefully. *Crosses Fingers* But from what I have experienced, there are not enough "fair" judges who jusge on what really matters.


Which is truly unfortunate and part of the reason I got steered towards reining (they could care less what your wearing as long as its legal, the best horse is goin to win), although I have a horse for the QH circuit agian ahah.


----------



## CountryJay

StylishK said:


> Which is truly unfortunate and part of the reason I got steered towards reining (they could care less what your wearing as long as its legal, the best horse is goin to win), although I have a horse for the QH circuit agian ahah.


 
That's why I show in jumping, cross country, barrel racing, and just trail rid eto have fun-- because they're not that biased.


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## sorelhorse

Peetz said:


> When I first started in horses, seems like a life time ago, the head position on a western horse was level with it's body, not higher and not lower.
> 
> Why has this changed? Why? Why???
> It looks so unnatural, to have the horses head so low. It reminds me of those ( bad, bad) peoples horses who had their poor heads tied up for the entire morning until their western class came up and the poor horse had no choice but to have his head so low it' nose was draggin the ground like a blood hound.
> 
> Now that is all I see, that lower than top-line headset, it looks like the horse is sick or tired or maybe just sickn'tired, don't know but can someone please,please tell me the rationale behind this?
> 
> Maybe if I were to understand the reasoning, I would have an " aw-ha" moment and not be so obsessed. LOL.


because pretty much of style. thats it. ya it may be unnatural as you call it but so is everything else! thats what bugs me. gymkhana is unnatural, dressage is unnatural, for heavens sake riding horses is unnatural. ive showed at worlds in western pleasure, and the styles are changing, horses noses arent"on the groun" any more, or "peanut pushers" its level or a little bit below the withers.


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## sorelhorse

farmpony84 said:


> I've seen horses tied like that at shows. They pin in EVERY class, bring home the big wins. Their eyes are dull and they look like they've gone deep inside themselves, they have little personality and I think it's how they survive the miserable place they are in. I wonder if that's how they live their life, at home, tied all the time.


all i cab say is that all of the shows ive been too ive never seen any like that. and ive gone to paint and pinto worlds. and it is illegal to do that anyways(in breed horse rules)


----------



## sorelhorse

kevinshorses said:


> As I have said many times on this forum, the really atrocious part of WP is the gates the horses are forced into. Now many of the WP riders on hear will tell you that it is getting better and horses are moving freer but the world champion horses are still dragging a hind leg at a "lope" and making a mess of a trot as well. Judges don't have to give any ribbons if they don't want to. If I went to judge a class and I called for a lope and felt like no horse actually did it I would disqualify the whole class. Chances are really good that would be the last show that I ever judged but it would make a memorable statement. If I were to show in a WP or trail class I would make sure that I recorded the entire thing and if I felt that the winner should not have won I would take it up with the judge and the show commitee. It would be hard to argue with that kind of evidence.


its style and you couldnt just disqualify them for mo reason other than youe opinion. there doing what you asked-a lope. as long as it is 3 beats its a lope, and its not bad.


----------



## sorelhorse

one more thing. i bet 95% of you guys complaining about how unnatural and uncomfy western pleasure looks have never ridden a western pleasure horse, or gone to a show. so go to a wp show, ride a CHAMPION wp horse, then tell me what you think of it.


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## CountryJay

sorelhorse said:


> one more thing. i bet 95% of you guys complaining about how unnatural and uncomfy western pleasure looks have never ridden a western pleasure horse, or gone to a show. so go to a wp show, ride a CHAMPION wp horse, then tell me what you think of it.


I have ridden a champion western pleasure horse. It was not comfortable, but that is also just my opinion.


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## myponygizmo

Your horse's head should be a straight line. Thhink about it if you don't get it.(it's true)


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## smrobs

CountryJay said:


> I have ridden a champion western pleasure horse. It was not comfortable, but that is also just my opinion.


Have to agree here. My Dad used to train them on the AQHA circuit and I have ridden champion WP horses. It felt stiff and unnatural and I didn't like it at all. And this was not one or two of them, it was every one I ever rode.


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## thunderhooves

I have also ridden an accomplished mare. Not comfy. in fact, I almost got chucked into the dirt from her lurch! lol
We all know that sorelhorse ill defend WP all she.he can, and then throw out other disciplines as excuses. *eye roll*
GREAT! Now I will start spelling "sorrel" as "sorel", because of her name! grr!


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## myponygizmo

Some horses though are bred to have their head down!!!!


----------



## smrobs

That's true, but it isn't an excuse for them to travel like a lame duck.


----------



## thunderhooves

myponygizmo said:


> Some horses though are bred to have their head down!!!!


yes, but some also Like to buck and have their head up in the clouds, but it ain't always good


----------



## StylishK

Cowboys didn't like having horses with too high of headsets because they couldn't rope something properly. 

I think thats where the breeding for a lower neck set.

I like a level headset the best, some horses naturally want to go a touch lower and its fine. I hate the look of a horse with its legs between its knees.


----------



## myponygizmo

Even i have learned something now my self about western pleasure!!!


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## TheCowgirlRanda

Here where I live the judges like the level head set. I don't really care honestly because I am only showing to have fun


----------



## IllComeALopin

These threads are getting soooo old... yet it goes on and on... :-|


----------



## Poco1220

I'm not gonna agree or disagree with the headset but my horse just isn't built to allow a low headset like they do in WP no matter how hard anyone has tried (numerous trainers to no avail) he simply will not accept it and I'm not going to use the new age forces to make him do it.

Therefore, with my chances of placing in ANY WP class blown to hell I made the only decision I could. I traded in my WP show saddle for a Henri De Rivel and my curb for a snaffle. The amazing part was how much happier he seemed now that we're an english pair and that I've learned he has a passion for jumping. You put the jump in the arena and you can fall off half way there but he's gonna continue right on over.

I guess as angry as I got over that headset for most of my life it paid off because in giving up I found something we both liked better and a sport more suitable for a natural horse.


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## somekindalexus

so, in your opinion, is this is too low?
IMO, I think this is an ideal WP headset:


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## StylishK

Thats my ideal headset ^^^ 
Some horses are naturally a touch higher or lower.


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## ocalagirl

I came a bit late, but I figure that I will comment. I began cross training my hunter with western pleasure after I found that he has a real talent for it. He loves to relax down into a lower frame and smaller gait. I will never ask him to do a 4-beated canter or any of that not only because I need purity of gaits for hunters, but also because I feel that would add unnecessary stress to our "hobby". My horse wins everything in western pleasure in my area, and I truly believe it's because he does everything in a natural manner and because he loves it. 

Horses are over trained in every discipline in the world. When a horse really enjoys a certain activity, whether that be a slow, low headset or a fast paced higher headset like a jumper, then that discipline is not a waste, no matter how "impractical". Horses are rarely used as actively and practically as they were, with some exceptions. Trail riding is just as much a fun activity as showing is. Just look at how hunters have evolved. 

I agree that you must ride in a discipline to judge it. Those who have and then have formed opinions, more power to you. I love what western pleasure has done for my horse, but everyone has different experiences. I do agree that this particular discipline has some issues, but I don't feel like I am in any place to judge it as a whole based on the faults of some riders and trainers. I commend the discipline as a whole for working to correct issues.


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## OhSoAppy

smrobs said:


> I don't like it and will never own a WP horse, but I can't change the minds of others. Just don't tell me that they move naturally, cause they don't.* If it was natural for a horse to do that, it wouldn't take hours of specialized training every week to get them to move like that*.


Every horse, in every discipline, training for the top levels of what they do train for hours. Do you think an Oldenburg filly comes out already at FEI Level? It takes years, and years of specialized training to perform at the level. 

As do Olympic athletes, and Sport professionals. 

The thing is, it _is _natural for these horses. The training simply pushes them to perform at the best of _their _ability.


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