# trouble with neck reigning



## new2horses (Dec 26, 2009)

First of all, I'm a beginner (if you couldn't tell from my handle). So I realize that there's an aspect of control to this issue. But I'm hoping someone can give me a little advice above and beyond "you just have to show the horse whose boss" LOL. Basically, I have trouble steering horses that are trained to neck reign. They just don't listen to me. It's like I'm doing something to confuse them. It's happened with 3 horses now so I know it's definitely me :lol: I lie the reign against the neck and use my leg aid but I still can't keep a horse moving along a fence, for example. If I can get it against the fence in the first place, it will just end up veering towards the middle as soon as I let off. Should I be lying the reign on the neck until the horse turns as much as I want or should I be doing quick, little movements against the neck? I know I can just use 2 hands and tug the appropriate reign but I'm more interested in uderstandng why I can't neck reign! This issue has led to me being brushed in the face by low-hanging trees, walking through tumbleweeds and craters in the ground and also way too close to things LOL. Any insight would be great. (I just signed up for lessons so can't ask my instructor yet).


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## charlicata (Jan 12, 2010)

I lay the reign against the neck...if I don't get the result that I'm looking for, I give a little tug on the opposite reign. A lady told me that when she was teaching her horse to neck reign (I've never tried it myself), she hooked the right reign to the left side of the bit and the left reign to the right side of the bit. Sorry if that's confusing, but that's the way she told me. That way when she would make the exagerrated movement to turn the horse left, the right reign would lay against his neck but tug a little on the left side of the bit. 

I hope I got this right...I'm so tired right now that I'm confusing myself...LOL


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## kolorisingstudio (Aug 13, 2010)

From what you are saying, it sounds like you are either not reining correctly or the horses aren't properly trained to neck rein.

Say we are asking a horse to, oh let's say go right, while neck reining. When holding your reins, you let the rein slide through your hand until your hand is a bit of a ways down the right rein. Close your hand back against the rein, then slowly bring your hands outward. Make sure you are NOT pulling "back", you only pull outwards. (Your left rein should "lay" on the horses neck before you get to the point of pulling on the right side of the bit) If they do not respond to the rein laying on their neck, I will then ask with my leg for the turn, as well as the rein still laying on the neck. If there is no response to the leg, then you continue pulling the rein outward until you get the turn. As you pull outward you will gradually pick up more and more contact with the right side of the bit.

(note* pulling back is never the correct way to ask for a turn, even when riding in english disciplines. You always ask by bringing your hand outward. When first teach a horse to "steer" it may be neccesary to bring your hand outward from the elbow, but as you progress the horse should turn efficiently off of your leg, with your hand flexed outward from the wrist to maintain conact and bend. Bringing your hand back pulls on both corners of the mouth, which does not equate easily in a horses mind to "turn". This applies. no matter what discipline you ride)

To train a horse to neck rein, it is basically the same process. You aren't "pulling" the horse over with the rein. The rein is the "warning" that the bit is about to come next. Conditioned response and all that. Lay the rein on the neck, if no response ask with leg, if no response continue pulling outward until you get your turn. It may take a while for some horses to pick it up, especially "english" trained horses who are used to saw/direct reining, but this is the best way to teach them.

Criss-crossing the reins under their neck creates an insensitive horse. It took my four year 10 minutes to learn to neck reining using the process I described above. When you crisscross there is no way to use gradual pressure in your training. It creates more times then not a confused horse. 

Monique


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

new2horses said:


> If I can get it against the fence in the first place, it will just end up veering towards the middle as soon as I let off.


Make sure you don't unconsciously have either a leg or heel on the horse or even slightly tight on one rein cueing the 'veering'. I've seen a lot of riders have this 'unwanted turning' problem when on well trained horses that are very light in the mouth and on the leg.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

One other thing to consider is make sure that you aren't keeping your reins too short. Sometimes even a well trained horse will be confused by reins that are too short.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Let's say you want the horse to turn to the right. So you would lay the left rein on the horses neck and give pressure with your left leg. 

That is the simple idea, but let's make sure you are not accidentally giving a wrong cue somewhere else. 

Keeping the same example of turning to the right, you should make sure you are NOT making any contact with your right leg. You want to "keep the inside door open" so your horse has a direction in which they are free to move. 

You also should make sure that you are not trying so hard to lay the left rein on the horses neck that you are accidentally causing bit action on the left side. If that happens, your neck rein is telling the horse to turn right, but the action on the left side of the bit is telling the horse to turn left. This is really confusing for the horse! So make sure you are keeping a loose rein when you neck rein. 

Another thing that may help in doing a right turn, is you can bring your right leg (the leg that is applying pressure because the horse should move away from pressure) slightly forward toward the horse's shoulder. This just encourages the horse to turn their front end only, and keep their weight and balance on their hind legs. Essentially, this is a rollback if you would turn 180 degrees where the horse crosses their front legs over one another while keeping the right hind leg planted (for a right turn). 

If the horse is not responding to your neck rein to turn right, and you are holding the reins in your left hand, you can then use your right hand to pick up on the inside rein and give a direct cue to the bit to reinforce what you are asking the horse to do (turn right). 

If the horse wants to drift into the center, so be it! Let's go to the center and WORK. Do anything you want in the middle of the arena but keep that horse moving. Do circles, serpentines, backing, and anything as long as his feet are moving. Then go back to the rail and continue what you were doing at a nice easy pace of walking (and relaxation). If he still wants to go to the center, then he has enough energy to WORK some more! Make the horse work where they want to go and soon enough, they will learn it is much easier to just stay where you put them (on the rail, in this case).

Another thing you can do is turn circles toward the fence. So if you are walking in a counter-clockwise circle around the area and your horse is not really listening to your right neck rein cue to stay on the fence, do a full 360 degree right turn into the fence to say "hey! We need to stay on the fence". Then continue walking. If he still wants to drift into the middle of the area, do it again. Eventually, he'll figure out that its just easier to just walk straight along the rail instead of having to do all these turns. 

It just takes some FIRM consistency!! 



> A lady told me that when she was teaching her horse to neck reign (I've never tried it myself), she hooked the right reign to the left side of the bit and the left reign to the right side of the bit. Sorry if that's confusing, but that's the way she told me. That way when she would make the exagerrated movement to turn the horse left, the right reign would lay against his neck but tug a little on the left side of the bit.


This makes no sense and is giving the horse 2 completely opposite commands. 

Like I explained above, laying the left rein on the horses neck (with no bit contact from the left rein) and reinforcing the cue with a direct rein pull directly on the right rein is the proper way. 

By your explaination of criss-crossing the reins, you are doing the opposite and telling the horse to go one way with the bit, but telling him to go the opposite way with the neck rein cue. Super confusing for the horse and for the rider.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I found this on Youtube and she explains everything I talked about!


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## new2horses (Dec 26, 2009)

*Thanks!*

This is all helping a lot. I appreciate the positive nature of the comments too :wink:


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

I agree with the other comments posted. Some very good advice there.

I will also add something that someone else alluded to... the horse could have something to do with it.

You are a beginner, about to start taking lessons. What horses are you riding? If you are at a typical (typical around here anyway) commercial barn, I doubt they are putting a new rider on "well trained, soft horses." If you are riding what around here would be a typical beginner hack/lesson horse then a big part of this could be the horse taking advantage of you.

Most horses will try anything to get our of work. They all know when a beginner is on their back. Even with a "better" horse, they will test you and see what they can get away with. Your comments about tumbleweeds and low hanging branches indicate to me a serious "respect" issue at play.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult to explain how to "show the horse who is boss." It is not a "force" thing. It comes from experience and training. Don't worry - you will get there in time if you keep at it. There are a lot of subtleties to riding. It simply takes lessons and practice.

Also keep in mind "neck reining" is much more than just reins. A well trained neck reining horse uses the reins as a secondary means of turning. The main cues are being done from the waist down ("leg" and "seat").

Is it possible you are so concerned about veering to the middle or coming close to that low hanging branch that your thoughts (and possibly eyes) are focused on that? If so, you could be actually telling the horse to take you there.

In addition to what you are doing with the reins, your eyes/head and body should be pointed where you want to go. A good way to think about it is to point your navel where you want to go.

Hope this helps.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

beau159 said:


> > A lady told me that when she was teaching her horse to neck reign (I've never tried it myself), she hooked the right reign to the left side of the bit and the left reign to the right side of the bit. Sorry if that's confusing, but that's the way she told me. That way when she would make the exagerrated movement to turn the horse left, the right reign would lay against his neck but tug a little on the left side of the bit.
> 
> 
> 
> This makes no sense and is giving the horse 2 completely opposite commands.



I have heard about what the original poster is referring to. I have never seen it done, but the concept makes sense.

By crossing the reins, you get to add some direct reining to the neck rein. If you are going left, the horse will feel the rein on the right side of the neck. In addition, the crossed rein will put pressure on the right side of the bit, "pushing" it to the left. The idea is to do this one handed. Done right, the pressure is consistent - all on the right side cueing the horse to turn left.

As stated, never seen it or tried it. If set up correctly, the concept makes sense. In practice, however, it might be hard to do correctly. From what I have read it does work for some people.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Tazmanian Devil said:


> I have heard about what the original poster is referring to. I have never seen it done, but the concept makes sense.
> 
> By crossing the reins, you get to add some direct reining to the neck rein. If you are going left, the horse will feel the rein on the right side of the neck. In addition, the crossed rein will put pressure on the right side of the bit, "pushing" it to the left. The idea is to do this one handed. Done right, the pressure is consistent - all on the right side cueing the horse to turn left.
> 
> As stated, never seen it or tried it. If set up correctly, the concept makes sense. In practice, however, it might be hard to do correctly. From what I have read it does work for some people.


If you are pulling so hard on the reins one-handed when you are neck reining that it puts pressure on the bit ... you are not neck reining properly. You can see my explaination above as to why. 

Plus, the crossed rein is not only going to put pressure on the right side of the bit (if we were turning to the left) even if you have a snaffle in the mouth because the pull from the rein is coming from the back and right and not coming strictly from the left side as if were were direct reining. So there are TWO cues going on that is going to confuse the horse. And again, not to mention the fact that you should never pull so hard in a neck rein one-handed that it causes bit pressure. That's not the purpose of neck reining.

If your horse needs the reinforcement of a direct rein (and they do in the early stages of neck reining training), why would it be so hard to simply lift your inside hand for a direct rein cue reinforcement rather than crossing the reins and making a confusing mess?


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## kolorisingstudio (Aug 13, 2010)

Tazmanian Devil: Proper neck reining should be a conditioned response, not pushing or pulling the horse over. By criss-crossing the reins you are teaching the horse that it needs pressure on the neck to turn, which is incorrect. "Pressure" is not necessary to neck rein, a touch is. 

No one is going to ride with their reins permanently criss-crossed, so when they try to attach the reins properly again, you have to go through the process of teaching the horse to rein over properly again. Criss-crossing provides a different weight then having your reins attached normally, so if you wish for a sensitive horse than it is a useless training technique. 

(Not saying anything to offend, just explaining. :wink: )


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

beau159 and kolorisingstudio,

Your points are well taken. As stated, I have never seen or tried the method. Like most things, a quick explanation on the net from someone unfamiliar with a technique usually leaves out some important detail. As I have heard of some people having success with the method (presumably done properly) I thought to give it the benefit of the doubt.

If I had every thought to try it, I would first find someone experienced with the technique to first show me how. At that point I would make my own judgement on it. At this point, I am guessing. 

I completely understand and agree with your points.

As to "pressure" vs. "touch" - this is a semantic difference. When properly/well trained the pressure we refer to should only be a "touch." This not only applies to neck reining, but also leg "pressure" or any other kind of physical cue.

As beau159 points out, a horse first learning to neck rein will often need additional reinforcement of a direct rein. The criss-cross method - as it was explained to me - is supposed to provide that reinforcement when needed. It is simply a training aid and not a long-term solution.




> why would it be so hard to simply lift your inside hand for a direct rein cue reinforcement rather than crossing the reins


A very good question and why I am also skeptical about the criss-cross concept. The criss-cross is supposed to _replace_ the inside hand direct rein reinforcement. I _think_ the concept might be in support of your point about bit pressure. Teaching neck reining with the one=handed criss-cross might prevent riders from exerting too much bit pressure while just giving the horse a little extra reinforcement.

I sometimes ride with a bitless bridle. That system basically employs a criss-cross method. When you direct rein to the left, your aren't actually "pulling" so much as "pushing" the head due to the design (where the pull or push can be as light as a "touch" depending on the rider's hands and softness of the horse).

Again, I am not endorsing or supporting this method, nor have I ever seen it done. I have heard of it enough to know that _some_ people consider it a valid training tool and have success with it. There are some very counter-intuitive things about it (as pointed out in the above posts) which make me skeptical. Since some have had success with it I have to think there is _something_ to the method. My explanations are simply guesses based on my limited knowledge of the technique and a desire to reason out how it could possibly work. I don't like to totally discount a method until I have seen it done properly.

Hope I clarified my comments on this.


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## cecillover (Aug 7, 2010)

Yes i agree with everyone else. But I sort of do it my own way, This helps me a lot,( well i am a barrel racer so i have barrel reins) but it helps me toput one hand on the reins and one hand on tthe horn and what my instructer (Sister) said is to if your going right use your left leg and hold it in and make sure the other foot isnt hitting our horses stomache, as well as putting the ren against the left side of their neck, And they will feel that preasure on that side and will be like oh i got to go that way, But that always works for me i hope it can help you out too.


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

charlicata said:


> . A lady told me that when she was teaching her horse to neck reign (I've never tried it myself), she hooked the right reign to the left side of the bit and the left reign to the right side of the bit. Sorry if that's confusing, but that's the way she told me. That way when she would make the exagerrated movement to turn the horse left, the right reign would lay against his neck but tug a little on the left side of the bit.


Hmm... that's actually a pretty neat idea... I'm gonna try it with my guy


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Perch, I wouldn't advise that. While it _can_ work to teach them neck reining, it isn't a very effective method and they end up pretty hard to the pressure of the rein.

This is a much better way to teach the neck rein initially.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

smrobs said:


> Perch, I wouldn't advise that. While it _can_ work to teach them neck reining, it isn't a very effective method and they end up pretty hard to the pressure of the rein.
> 
> This is a much better way to teach the neck rein initially.
> YouTube - Training Tips: Neck Reining and Pivoting, part 1, eXtension


 
Super video! Thanks for posting that.

It shows exactly what NOT to do when neck reining. And it also shows what would happen if you criss-cross your reins and give a "pilot error" (as the video puts it) on the reins. 

Please take a look at this video *PerchiesKisses*. If you still don't know why criss crossing the reins is a BAD idea, just ask. We can try to explain again!


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

I'll watch the vid when I get home, as I have no youtube access here  but I'm just trying to explore some better ways of teaching my horse to neck rein. he understands the concept at a stop... is slow to respond but does at a walk... and ignores the cue in total at anything faster. and he absolutely will not give his neck unless I add a little bit of heel into the mix when asking and then he clues in.

mind you, I started in just his halter at first and used heavier rope reins to make the cues a little more obvious to him... I was thinking that if implementing the criss-cross technique it would be more of an automatic thing. The trick would be for the cue-stimulous-response-reward to be more simultanious. especially for someone like me who has a horrible habit of going back to two handed riding without realizing I'm doing it.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

PerchiesKisses said:


> he understands the concept at a stop... is slow to respond but does at a walk... and ignores the cue in total at anything faster. and he absolutely will not give his neck unless I add a little bit of heel into the mix when asking and then he clues in.
> 
> ......
> 
> I was thinking that if implementing the criss-cross technique it would be more of an automatic thing. The trick would be for the cue-stimulous-response-reward to be more simultanious.


Sounds like he simply just needs more practice with neck reining! Like anything you teach, until they are solid on it, it IS going to fall apart at faster speeds because they are just not ready to advance to that level yet. In that case, there is nothing wrong with giving a reinforcing direct rein to back-up all the rest of the cues you just gave him. It's the same concept of always giving the lightest cue possible first, and give him the chance to respond. If he doesn't, add the next cue and give him the chance to respond. Then add the next cue, etc. until you get him to respond correctly. Eventually with time and practice (and *consistency*), he will learn to respond to the first lightest cue. 

Also, you SHOULD ALWAYS be giving him a leg cue when you ask for any sort of turn (neck rein or otherwise). You should always be using a combination of seat, legs, weight, and reins for any maneuvar. It's just good correct riding with the ultimate goal of not really needing the reins at all! (only needing light cues from your legs and body)

Implementing this criss cross technique is just going to confuse your horse. Guaranteed. Dont' do it.


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## PerchiesKisses (Dec 6, 2010)

Hmm... interesting... I've always been taught that the neckreining controls the front, the heels the back. Mind you, I learned everything I know at a dude ranch where finess means nothing and getting the job done is everything lol


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

PerchiesKisses said:


> Hmm... interesting... I've always been taught that the neckreining controls the front, the heels the back. Mind you, I learned everything I know at a dude ranch where finess means nothing and getting the job done is everything lol


Kind of.

It is where you PLACE your heel that determines what part of the horse moves. 

So let's say you want to do a rollback where the horse plants their hind end and turns their front end. Yes, you can accomplish a rollback by neck reining only (and no other cues) but it is going to be much more efficient for the horse and lighter in your cues for you if you do all cues: weight, leg, rein, seat. So if we are turning to the left, you want to keep your left leg completely off the horse (to open the door) and you want to slide your right leg slightly forward to cue the front of the of the horse to turn. 

If we want to do a turn on the forehand, you won't use the neck rein cue as much as a rollback, but it still reinforces what you want. But you are going to move your right leg back on the horse (if we want them to move their hindquarters to the left) to encourage the back end to move and again keep your left leg off them. 

If you want to turn both the front and back simulanteously (so that we are doing neither a rollback nor a turn on the forehand) you would use one leg slightly forward and one leg slightly backward to correspond how you want the horse to turn (left or right). 

But the main point I am trying to make is that you should NEVER be only giving your horse ONE cue only (such as a neck rein only). You would always be using all the cues you have at your disposal --> seat, legs, weight, reins.

Maybe an example of a car would help:
What do you do when you make a left turn in your car? You take your foot off the gas, apply the brake, turn on your left signal, and turn the steering wheel. You use many cues!
It wouldn't make sense to stop your car all the way first. Then turn your wheels. Then apply the gas. Etc
Does that make sense?
Basically, just use all your signals or cues for your horse to get the best end result of the manuever you want to do.


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