# Can a red dun and a sorrel really produce a bay/brown?



## NorthernHorse (Jan 11, 2013)

No if the sire really is red dun and the dam sorrel, then he cannot be bay, he might carry the agouti gene but it will not be expressed as he would be e/e. Agouti requires the black gene to express itself, and hides when on a "red" horse.


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

Hah! I was right!  Thank you NorthernHorse! Now I'm really curious what colors his parents actually were. Anyone know how I might find pictures of them using the APHA (for the sire) and AQHA (for the dam) databases? I am a member of both but I'm still new to the world of fancy breed papers.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

This may sound dumb, but have you tried just googling the sire and dam's names and looking at the images? I found pics of my gelding's sire that way.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Do you have a full body picture of him? 

If his parents are correct, the only other option would be that he isn't bay. There are sorrels that have deceivingly dark manes, tails and legs but are in fact sorrel.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

BreakableRider said:


> Do you have a full body picture of him?
> 
> If his parents are correct, the only other option would be that he isn't bay. There are sorrels that have deceivingly dark manes, tails and legs but are in fact sorrel.


Normally I'd agree with you, but even in that pic you can see the black muzzle and black ear tips that go along with the agouti gene (bay/brown).


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

Ah, thanks. I'm on my phone so the color is a bit off, and dark to save battery.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

BreakableRider said:


> Ah, thanks. I'm on my phone so the color is a bit off, and dark to save battery.


No worries.  I know the feeling. I'm usually on my phone too.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

Maybe the father was really a bay dun instead with lots of white, sometimes people have difficulty with the dun colours. 

It's a stretch, but if he had white facial markings, leg markings, neck and rear markings there might not even be any clear indication he was a bay dun. Or they could have just gotten confused.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Seems like you have black & buckskin on sire side so i'd bet he wasn't a red dun but rather a Bay or Baydun:wink:. Toveros are typically more white & they may have had trouble determining his color if his paint markings made him predominately white:?


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> This may sound dumb, but have you tried just googling the sire and dam's names and looking at the images? I found pics of my gelding's sire that way.


Not dumb at all.  Unfortunately I already tried it. His parents don't seem to have any kind of breed show record, so I guess they're just not famous enough to show up in a google search. :-| Oh well. Hey, I'm just happy he has breed papers. They're so much easier to sell that way. My other gelding would have been sold twice over if I could just track down his **** AQHA papers. But that's a rant for another day.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

LittleBayMare said:


> Not dumb at all.  Unfortunately I already tried it. His parents don't seem to have any kind of breed show record, so I guess they're just not famous enough to show up in a google search. :-| Oh well. Hey, I'm just happy he has breed papers. They're so much easier to sell that way. My other gelding would have been sold twice over if I could just track down his **** AQHA papers. But that's a rant for another day.


That's weird. My gelding's sire did nothing but make babies. No show record, nothing. I can only find two really crappy pics of him in full winter fuzzies in the snow, but he does come up. lol


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

And this is why I love this forum. Everything I know about horse colors I learned from you guys and I learn more every day. 



Saskia said:


> Maybe the father was really a bay dun instead with lots of white, sometimes people have difficulty with the dun colours.
> 
> It's a stretch, but if he had white facial markings, leg markings, neck and rear markings there might not even be any clear indication he was a bay dun. Or they could have just gotten confused.





paintedpastures said:


> Seems like you have black & buckskin on sire side so i'd bet he wasn't a red dun but rather a Bay or Baydun:wink:. Toveros are typically more white & they may have had trouble determining his color if his paint markings made him predominately white:?


It could be lots of white combined with poor quality registration photos. Lord only knows what kinds of photos some people send in with their registration papers. That, and given their inability to differentiate between bay and brown, it doesn't really surprise me that some people might not look to closely at the nuances between some of the dun shades. And if the black part of his mane and tail were sunbleached...


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

LittleBayMare said:


> And this is why I love this forum. Everything I know about horse colors I learned from you guys and I learn more every day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brown can be tricky to identify on many foals. It is the great deceiver and will show itself on the winter coat. But when registries want foals registered at 6 months old or sooner before they increase the cost to register, many browns will be registered as bays 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> That's weird. My gelding's sire did nothing but make babies. No show record, nothing. I can only find two really crappy pics of him in full winter fuzzies in the snow, but he does come up. lol


I found my mare's sire by looking up her breeder off of her paper which I'm currently trying to do for Tex, but still no luck. :? I'm concluding that it must have been one of those backyard breedings strictly for the neighbor's stud's puuuurty color and then Tex popped out with a blaze, a small sock, and a little patch on his nose.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Several options:

He is not bay.

One/both of the parents are registered incorrectly.

Wrong parents.

From the picture I would say your horse is definitely E/_ (red plus red can only ever equal red and your horse is black based).

As an aside not the best picture but I DO think he is bay instead of brown and what you called mealy IS mealy as opposed to shading. So my guess is bay with pangare ("mealy") not brown. However, both are black based so not super relevant.


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

The only full body picture I have of him is from last summer soon after I got him when he was less than ideal weight. I am hesitant to post it simply because I will be putting him up for sale soon. Maybe I'll try to get a new picture of him this weekend and post it. 
Pangare is the thing where the black legs aren't solid and kind of get...I guess the best way to describe it is "mealy points"...on them, right?
He looks like this (but this is not my horse, just an example from the internet) \/ \/ 







If that's pangare then, yes, he has pangare. 
I can't find pictures of his parents, however I looked up his dam, Crowns Lena Gin. According to her list of registered AQHA offspring, she produced 3 sorrels and a palomino, all by BRYANS GOLDEN JACK, who, according to allbreeds, in a palomino. I still haven't figured out how to get a similar report on his sire from the APHA, but I'm working on it.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

That horse is just a bay.


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## LittleBayMare (Jun 2, 2014)

Saskia said:


> That horse is just a bay.


Well, not pangare then. 
I'm going to go out on limb with limited information that I have and say that the dam's color might be right according to her list of offspring and the sire's color is the one that's probably wrong. 
According to you lovely experts, the most likely color for the sire is bay dun with a whole lot of white on mane and tale/sun bleaching/an owner with really bad photography skills at the time of registration.
Case closed.
HF color court is adjourned with a ruling in favor of the APHA being generally incompetent in color registration. :lol:


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

That ruling is the last in a long, long, long line of precedence. In fact, counsel suggest that in future, operate under the assumption that the APHA is in fact incorrect. It will save frivolous cases from making it this far


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