# Western Critique! O.O



## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

Yup, I will be showing western this season, and I really want some critique so I know what to work on. But be nice please, Bear and I are both english trained, so we arent the best at western. As far as I know, this was Bears first ever western ride, and I thought he did pretty good. =]


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## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

By the way, we will be switching him into the short shank tom-thumb once he gets used to the whole western thing. As I said, he is english trained, so western is a bit different for him.

I do have a western trainer that will be helping us out too. =]


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

He seems a bit heavy on his forehand but it could just be that one pic. You might try letting the reins go a little bit. Most western horses (especially in shows) are ridden on loose or even droopy reins.


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## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

Just wondering, which picture are you talking about? Yeah, I agree that I need to work on that. We did do a bit of loose rein work at mainly the walk, and he needs work on neck reining, but we will get there! I am going to take him into a green horse class, just two gait, until I feel ready that he is ready to move up to 3 gate green horse. Once he is in the tom=thumb my reins will be looser, as I hate seeing shank bits with tight reins, hehe.

Anyone else? =]


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

I would recommend relaxing your leg a bit. Your horse is supposed to look like a "pleasure" to ride. The less a judge can see you asking for things, the better. 

I know that he's just transitioning but I would try to give him as much rein as possible. Also - no need to switch to a shanked bit just yet. Work him on a loose rein with a snaffle bit. Once he's got the neck reining and light cues down pat, try a shanked bit with even less cueing. 

I would really postpone switching bits for as long as possible. I ride my guy in a snaffle on a very loose western-rein and he does just fine. I do, of course, show him in a shanked bit.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I was talking about that third picture. The one where you are jogging to the left.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

Here are two examples of loose rein with a snaffle bit. He's in a D-ring snaffle. That way, I can direct rein him if need be. In a tom thumb you can't direct rein. 

So, with a snaffle you can still teach light contact and neck reining, but you also have the ability to collect your horse back up, shift his weight or direct rein. 

Pink shirt is me riding, green shirt is my BFF who is VERY novice riding. Notice how he drops his head with a bit more rein (green rider) and picks up a bit more as I collect (pink shirt)?


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## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

To Sixx:
Oh trust me, I am putting it off as long as possible! He really does perfer his snaffles, hehe. I am going to do the same thing that you do with your horses, after doing what you advised (I hope that made sense). I perfer snaffles myself, so he will school in that at home after he gets used to the tom-thumb when I move him onto that.

Just wanted to add two things... One, yeah, he is on the forehand pretty bad normally, that is one of the mane things we will be working on once im riding him again. Two, I am so, so in love. =,]


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## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

So I should really just drop my reins and work on getting him to drop his head and be lighter. He is pretty lazy, so I normally wear spurs, but I dont want to use western spurs. I am trying to wean him off of spurs, and he is doing a little better, that way if I need them at shows and stuff, it will give him a little extra energy. Does that sound okay?


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## sillybunny11486 (Oct 2, 2009)

He's really contracting his neck muscles in a few photos, probably bracing. Thats probably the thing you want to work on the most. No judge wants to see a tense horse. 

Question: why cant you direct rein with a tom thumb? ive boarded with people who used them for english, of course they do use two reins though.


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## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah, I think they he was so tense was because he hasnt used those muscles in a year or more!
By the way, the tom-thumb he is in a short shank and is just a normal snaffle (with shanks of course). I would never put him in a curb, as he has a soft mouth and rides best in a soft bit.


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

The short shank snaffle IS A CURB BIT. Many times the curb bits with a snaffle mouthpiece (like the one you are referring to) are more harsh than a curb bit that has a port. 

When you transition to a curb bit, look for these kind of curb bits: correction, spoon, or reiner. Look for something with swivel shanks and a mouthpiece that has action (not a solid mouthpiece with no movement). 

A curb bit is not harsh if you select the right one & learn how to use it properly.


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## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

GottaRide said:


> The short shank snaffle IS A CURB BIT. Many times the curb bits with a snaffle mouthpiece (like the one you are referring to) are more harsh than a curb bit that has a port.
> 
> When you transition to a curb bit, look for these kind of curb bits: correction, spoon, or reiner.* Look for something with swivel shanks and a mouthpiece that has action (not a solid mouthpiece with no movement).*
> 
> A curb bit is not harsh if you select the right one & learn how to use it properly.


Yeah, someone insisted on putting a bit like that in Bear's mouth, he HATED it. He did best in the normal snaffle (w/ no shanks), then he did second best in the tom-thumb.
I have always been told that tom-thumbs are one of the kindest western bits (with shanks), when in the right hands, like any bit. Have I been told wrong? :-|


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Since you are electing to go with the broken mouth, might I suggest you look for one with a myler/billy allen mouth, just to avoid the nutcracker effect compounded by the shanks. Really, a TT isn't that soft of a bit, especially since he doesn't go on loose reins yet. Does he neck rein? If not, I certainly wouldn't put him in a TT. But then again, that is just MHO. If you have tried it and he does well, then don't change him up.

Not getting on your butt here, just trying to help figure out what would work best for Bear. Also, the shorter the shanks are, the milder it will be.

Billy Allen Bits

I really like the one with the gold chevrons about 1/3 the way down, if only the shanks were shorter.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

In the right hands, a tom thumb can be direct reined, but I don't usually recommend it to people and wouldn't use one myself.

The problem is, when some people direct rein with a tom thumb they're also pulling on the poll of the horse and pinching the tongue of the horse with the bit. Never a good combination.

Like GottaRide, I would recommend going to a reining bit instead of a tom thumb. I personally like the looks of this bit: ETA: With a bit shorter of a shank for you.

Pro-Craft Reining Bit with Roller - Horse.com


Personally, I ride in a bit something like this (with a slightly lower port):

Silver Aluminum Precision Spring Show Bit 8 3/4in Cheeks - Horse.com


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

smrobs said:


> Billy Allen Bits
> 
> I really like the one with the gold chevrons about 1/3 the way down, if only the shanks were shorter.


I hate you for posting that link, now I think I've found ANOTHER Christmas present for Java... The Calvary Shank at the bottom looks like it might work well with my heavy reins for finesse work. But that California Shank wouldn't be bad for a new daily bit... hmmm.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Haha! I just took a good look at that California shank after I had already posted and by the time I decided to mention it, my edit time had passed. I really like that one too but the only problem I notice is that it looks like it would pinch their lips :?. They basic idea is virtually identical to the Myler bit line but Billy Allen is an old friend of mine so I would buy his long before I would buy myler.


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## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

As of right now, Bear does NOT know how to neck rein, and I wont be switching him into a bit with shanks until he can neck rein. Well, I wouldnt say that he cant as of right now, he just doesnt totally get it, so I normally use leg when I neck rein him (I normally use leg to help my horse turn anyways), which seems to help. I have been practicing it while warming up and cooling down english too.

Any tips on how to help him learn to neck rein?

To mods:
(( Sorry for letting this thread wonder a bit))

To smrobs:
Nutcracker effect? You lost me a bit, hehe. I am not sure how short of a shank is legal in shows, but I am going for the shortest shank I can get away with. Are the bits you showed me legal at shows? Do you think a bit with rollers would be a good idea?


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## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

Are the reining bits legal in 4H, western pleasure, and western eq.? On this bit (Pro-Craft Reining Bit with Roller - Horse.com) why does it have a chain going across the bottom of it? Where the bit at the bottom of this page (Billy Allen Bits) does not.


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## Gidji (Dec 19, 2008)

Sorry off topic but I'm sure in beginner classes and green horse classes you can ride in a snaffle or a curb regardless of the horse's age. That's what its like at my shows, but I don't know if its the same over there.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I don't know about what all is legal in the shows, you might contact the local show steward or whoever and find out. As for the nutcracker effect. JDI explained it best with her bucket analogy. Think of the bit as the handle on a bucket. With a single jointed snaffle, when you went to pick up the bucket, it would pinch your hand and that pinch would be harder the more the bucket weighed. That is the same thing your horse feels in his mouth with a simple snaffle. The sides of the bit push down on the bars and pinch his lips and tongue while the middle joint of the bit angles upward and pokes the roof of his mouth. The harder you pull, the more he is pinched. 

One of the reasons why many people don't like TT bits and the like is because when you think about the leverage ratio; a simple snaffle bit is a 1:1 ratio (you exert 1 pound of pressure on the reins and the horse feels 1 pound of pressure in his mouth). The ratio all depends on the proportions of the bit but I think a standard TT is a 1:3 ratio (each pound you exert, the horse feels 3).
Tom Thumb Bit

And here is another site that explains the confusion caused by direct reining, etc.
Trouble with Tom Thumb

And as for the bar across the bottom of the bit, it is called a slobber bar and I believe it is just used to stabilize the swivel motion on longer shanked bits. Not positive though.

Copied from another forum and it sounds right...




> Bit hobble, shank hobble, slobber strap, slobber bar, slobber chain...many names. Sometimes it's a thin bar, or a thick one. Some have chain, some are just a rope or braided rope/rawhide. You could use a curb strap if it goes small enough. It also has the effect of fixing loose shanks. It won't make them 100% stiff but it takes a lot of the play out of them so that they act more like a stiff shank then a loose one.
> 
> If the shanks are long it won't stop it from flipping over. What it is normally for is to stop a rope(or other things but mainly a rope) from getting hung up int he shanks and getting the mouth jerked on when the rope is pulled tight.


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## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

I was thinking that a happy mouth might be a good idea... I found two: 

Happy Mouth Western French w/ Shank and Western Jointed Mouth Shank Bits  | EQUESTRIAN COLLECTIONS.COM 
^^ I know Bear does well in french links and im sure he would do good in a happy mouth. I could just use this bit for at home and such, as im guessing I wouldnt be aloud to show in this.

Happy Mouth Western Jointed Mouth w/ Sha and Western Jointed Mouth Shank Bits  | EQUESTRIAN COLLECTIONS.COM
^^ I think I would have a better chance showing in this one (as in there would be a higher chance of this one being legal.

I will keep on looking at different bits. I think a happy mouth would be a good idea for Bear though, as he doesnt like harsh bits (not using my tom-thumb for him, ever xD)
.


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## eventerwannabe (Jun 10, 2009)

I found a few more western happy mouth bits:

Happy Mouth Western Center Revolver w/ S and Western Jointed Mouth Shank Bits  | EQUESTRIAN COLLECTIONS.COM
HMouth Jointed Mouth American Gag Bit and Gag Bits | EQUESTRIAN COLLECTIONS.COM
HMouth Double Jointed Mouth American Gag and Gag Bits | EQUESTRIAN COLLECTIONS.COM

I am just posting all the western happy mouths I can find, not bits that I am considering. I will not consider a bit until I get your guys' opinion.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Happy Mouth Western French w/ Shank and Western Jointed Mouth Shank Bits *|*EQUESTRIAN COLLECTIONS.COM

If I had to choose one, this would be it. It looks decently mild for having shanks. Hm, I wonder if they make it with a billy allen roller.........

Now I'm gonna have to start looking. LOL.

Although, I wonder if it is actually the plastic that Bear likes or just the bigger girth...

This one might be worth considering. It has a bigger girth on the sides.
http://www.equinenow.com/store-item-8621


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Does anyone know how this one works? Is is just a flexible cable in the middle or what?

Happy Mouth Western Center Peanut Bar w/ and Western Jointed Mouth Shank Bits  | EQUESTRIAN COLLECTIONS.COM


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

This one looks like it might have a little thicker mouth too.

Abetta Northstar Calvary Shank Billy Allen Bit

Judging by me measuring the length of the shank in the picture and the thickness of the mouth, it is at least a half inch.


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

NONONO!!! not a tomthumb, get a short shanked ported grazing style bit.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Happy Mouth Western French w/ Shank and Western Jointed Mouth Shank Bits *|*EQUESTRIAN COLLECTIONS.COM

I like this one if you have to go with a jointed mouthpiece. Just please make sure not to shank him until he neckreins very well? I think you already mentioned that you aren't going to but just my 2 cents anyhoo.


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## Sixxofdiamonds (May 7, 2009)

Do you have anybody you can borrow bits from? That's the best way to find out what works for your horse (as long as they're the right size). I've purchased bits from friends because they worked so good for my guy and not so well for theirs.


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## westonsma (May 19, 2009)

I can see that you're already using an eggbutt. I wouldn't switch that out. I ride all my horses (16 of them) except one in the eggbutt. I do, however, have a real wide mouth one, like this:

https://www.bluegrasshorsesupply.com/shop/images/products/thumb_209_thick-eggbutt-snaffle-s.jpg

If you don't want a bit to pinch the corners of your horse's mouth, you can use a bit guard.
http://www.nrsworld.com/istarimages/p/t/pt-BIT1009!REI.jpg
And the leather strap you asked about that's at the bottom of the bit is called a curb strap. It can serve several different purposes, depending on the bit. On your eggbutt, it can serve any of 3 purposes. 
1. Keep the bit from sliding through the horse's mouth
2. Add leverage to the chin to gain collection
3. Help evenly distribute the pressure throughout the entire mouth.

On a shank bit, depending on where it is placed, (either attached to the rings the headstall is attached to, or attached to the rings the reins are attached to) it not only keeps the shanks together, but it also prevents a rider from pulling the bit through the mouth and provides leverage under the chin for collection as well.

Here's a picture similar to the bit I use in the one horse that runs through my eggbutt.

Google Image Result for http://www.bitsnmore.com/images/catalog/714.jpg

My gray gelding has a problem when we're working cattle, he will suck in the snaffle bit and slide his tongue over it and pull against it. But my bit is a wide, rubber-wrapped piece of bike chain, so it doesn't pinch in his mouth as bad as this one would.

However, this one may be beneficial to you if your horse is really sensitive in the mouth.


Google Image Result for http://www.bitsnmore.com/images/catalog/714.jpg

Touch Plus, 5 1/2", sweet iron wrapped, three piece mouth with o-ring center. 6 1/2" cheeks. Designed for the horse with a more sensitive mouth. The slightly longer purchase and cheek add control for rate and supple turns.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

i'd leave him in a snaffle IMO . tomb thumbs are too hard and nut cracker'ie. nothing you can do in a tt that you cant in a snaffle =] the snaffle you used in the pix looks fine.



> the tom-thumb he is in a short shank and is just a normal snaffle (with shanks of course). I would never put him in a curb, as he has a soft mouth and rides best in a soft bit.


 
a tomb thumb IS a curb bit..and IS NOT a snaffle



> I have always been told that tom-thumbs are one of the kindest western bits (with shanks), when in the right hands, like any bit. Have I been told wrong?


wrong. tomb thumbs are one of THEE hardest western pieces of you know what. i'd never use one ever again. ive been on numerous forums and the debates over them always ended in a DONT use lol


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I wouldn't use a tom thumb on him (that's the equivilant 'crap' bit to the regular curb bit) I would look for a better bit for him to show in, especially if he is so sensitive to bit pressure. 

I agree with smrobs on seeing if you have friends who can borrow you some bits to try on Bear so you have an idea of what he might like, then purchase that bit, or something like it. 

As far as how he looks, he's definitely tense, so you'll need to work on getting him to relax more, and not brace against the bit. You don't want his head really low; his poll should be even with his wither, or even slightly above it.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I only read the first page. After I post I'll read the rest. I think you need to sit back deeper on your pockets a bit, you are still looking a bit english in your seat. As for your hands, it's hard to go from a horse being used to contact to no contact, I think you are on the right track. It's going to take a lot of work with circles, halts, backs and what not to get him moving at the right pace on the looser rein. How old is he? If he's under five you don't need to rush to a port bit... I think you guys are cute though, the biggest thing I saw was you were tipped forward... just a bit.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

sorry for the double post. Just went back and read all the other responses. I noticed that the thread is kind of focused on the bit you need to use. I just want to say this:

A bit is only as harsh as the riders hands.


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