# Problems lounging (Horse kicks at my head)



## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

Unfortunatly, it sounds like you may be in over your head on this one. Whatever the reason for his naughty behavior, it seems like you may have inadvertently reinforced it because you are nervous around him and let him get the upper hand. Right now you are not a leader, he is and I think it may take someone else to get him back under control to where you may be able to work with him. 

Does he only do it on the lunge? Can you walk him and handle him in a halter okay?


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

He only does it while lunging. I can lead him, tie him, pick up his feet. He's bomb proof. I have desensitized him to the whip, balloons, gunfire, dogs, cars, car horns, everything I can think of. He pivots well, both on the haunches and the forequarters in both directions. 

I do understand what you're saying, but there is no way I am feeding his habit on this. I haven't lunged him in months. He has been working with three professional trainers. The first one dropped him because she got kicked. The second one I dropped because he refused to try working with him (heard stories from the first trainer), and he does the same thing with the trainer I have now.


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

What do you do when he starts these behaviors?

It is possible to continue working without lunging (maybe he has gotten sour on it?) but the fact that he would act out in such an extreme way would cause my great concern especially if you've already lost your confidence around him.


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

When he first started doing it, I was pretty much in the mindset of "no big deal, he spooked, keep him moving" and he worked through it pretty quickly. Then he got me in the face. I think that's what got him to do it consistantly. I actually lost consciousness for a few minutes and had to be rushed to the ER. So pretty much, he was free to run around the round pen as he pleased. I heard that somebody brought him in for me, but because of what happened and the fact that they didn't know him they used a stud chain and a twitch on him. Ever since then (and since then only other people have lunged him) he immediately starts with this kicking. Before that incident it would happen at about the five minute mark. Now it's the first thing he does.


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## SallyRC123 (Aug 22, 2008)

What about a whip with a plastic bag on the end?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Sarahver just posted a great description about how to behave when a horse displays aggressive behavior in the thread under this section by Princecharlie. I will probably repeat some of the information here.
Even softies like me who work with horses all the time understand there is a time when you have to be aggressive enough that your horse believes you are going to kill him. This has to be done WITHOUT anger or spite (he is a horse and does not fully understand that when he kicks you that it might kill you). But there are a few behaviors from horses that should be met with zero tolerance. Kicking at you, biting you, stomping on you, etc. When these behaviors are directed intentionally at you, you must show extreme aggression toward the horse. This means loud noises, smacks, snapping with the whip, hitting with rope, anything that will not actually injure your horse but will scare him into thinking you could kill him if you wanted to.
Now if I were training your horse, I have to think that rule #1 while lunging is that the hind end never comes toward me. I would also feel that I had two safety zones: one where I was too close for him to kick me, and one where I was too far away. I would start out snubbed up to his nose, leading him. I would turn his nose into me and his hind end out of the circle. Then I would ask him to walk forward following me as I backed away. I would feed him a couple of inches of rope, move slightly toward a more normal lunging position, and if the hind end ever started toward me I would pull the head back in to me and use the lunge whip to get his hind end back out. I would work on getting a little farther away from his nose, but if he ever turned that butt or threatened me you would hear me yelling, snapping the lunge whip and whacking him on the butt with the whip. I would work up to a distance where I felt he could almost reach me with his kickers if he tried (but was still walking nicely with his butt angled out just a bit), and then I would scoot out to a distance where I knew he couldn't reach me. From this safe distance I would do the same thing: severely punish the hind end turning toward me, rewarding a gentle walk on the line. If he decided to back toward me, I would pull that head around to face me, using the leverage of the lunge line, or even running around to face his head and then regaining control. If he decided to charge me, I would first swing the lunge line back and forth hard so the buckle smacked him in the face, and if that didn't stop him I would have my arms up waving and smack him hard on the face with the lunge whip. He's only 3 and has not had problems with aggressiveness, so it seems to me that he should be easy to bluff and not very practiced at aggressive behavior. Even so, if you are afraid of him you need to find a real trainer (or just an experienced horse person) who can work on retraining him how to lunge. 
You can ride and be around horses without lunging them. I'm amazed sometimes at how many horses people are riding around daily don't know how to lunge. BUT if your horse knows he can show aggressive behavior and have you flinch away from him, he is smart enough to know that he can do this when he is not lunging as well. 
Be careful also that you make sure when he is not displaying any bad behavior that you let him go back to lunging normally. If your cues get confusing he may think he can turn to face you and avoid lunging. I would practice lunging at the walk nicely for at least several days before going any faster. If I found I couldn't control his head with a halter, I would lunge with a bit and bridle on.
OK, just a few suggestions in case you wanted some ideas for working with the horse yourself.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks Gottatrot! 

Only thing I would add here is get a whip. A big one. And use it! 

Don't hit him of course but make sure you can crack it really well and get after him as soon as he begins to show signs of aggression, really make a big deal of it. That type of behaviour is NOT acceptable.


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## candandy49 (Jan 16, 2011)

What your horse has learned is very unacceptable behavior brought on most likely, because he has "won the battle by using the weapon that is available to him namely his hind feet. The experience with having been twitched and a nose chain used did not help matters at all.

What you need to do, if it's worth the risk involved, is "arm yourself" with a "weapon" since he has already used his hind feet as such. You'll need a lunge whip or stock whip at least 4 foot long. When the horse swings his hind end toward you give him one welt on the rump. Do the same thing when he comes at you in the "charging mode", but go for the nose with the whip. Only until he backs down and you have "won" in his book. You'll more than likely will have to carry the lunge whip or stock whip anytime your around him just in case he reverts back to using his "weapons".

If you stop lunging him all together that is only avoiding the problem not curing/fixing it.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Just read your response Candyandy and I wanted to add: If he _actually_ kicks at you then yes, I would sure as hell be swatting him on the butt.

Preferably you want to have the right timing so that you can get after him by cracking the whip _before_ he actually kicks out. He'll tell you what he is about to do with his body language. As soon as he starts showing signs of dominance/defiance crack that whip and drive him to the outside of the round pen before he even has a chance to raise a leg.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Infinity said:


> C: (this seems like such a newb question, but) can I progress in his training without lunging him?


Sorry to double post but I just noticed this. The answer is yes, you can get him go progress in his training without lungeing him.

However you will not progress in YOUR training which is equally important. After being kicked in the head it is understandable that you are fearful. If you really can't face lungeing him yet, find a trainer that can. Watch them successfully lungeing him so that you can see that it is possible. Then do it yourself.

This is something that you need to address as much for yourself as for your horse. 
:wink:


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I like Candandy's simple response. I'm envisioning my friend's bullwhip (like the man from snowy river), which probably would work very well. A good crack or two and you will be back in charge in no time.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I should say it makes a loud cracking noise.  Not to crack the horse with it.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Ok, I don't want to put a scare into anyone but as training doesn't seem to be working have you looked into possible physical reasons for the misbehavior? I ask this because I personally know of 2 horses who became very aggressive when training started & both had been brought up correctly.
Both were also Paints, both had congenital bone cysts in the large bones causing pain when worked.
I hope this isn't the problem with your horse but it may be worth looking into.


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

Alright, it seems I need to clear up some things. 

The first is my horse as been checkedand double checked by several vets. He also had a chiropracter come out and look at him when he first started showing signs of being pushy (the first thing he ever did was insist on charging down hills, even while he walked like a gentleman up the hills). He has also had visits from equine massage therapists back when I was boarding him at a stables (he is being kept on my property now, but this started far before I moved him).

Secondly, when I talk about my horse coming after me, I'm talking about with his hind end. He has never charged me face first, but more of him turning his butt at me and backing up while bucking or just shuffling really quickly in my direction.

Thirdly, he is working with a professional trainer. He does this at the walk, from the second he is asked to lunge. She turnes his head in when he starts to turn his butt towards her, but he will still shuffle backwards into her. I have a whip. It's five ft long with an added six ft section of nylon rope (thin, though). She uses it, but it seems to make him more fired up, and act more aggressively. The trainer seems to think it's more ofa game to him than actual aggressive behavior, but regardless, it's still extremely dangerous. 

There's a "horse whisperer" who lives behind me. Is that something that would help, or is he just going to do what my trainer is doing?


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

It depends on how he whispers :wink:

Why don't you go and see how he works with horses and determine for yourself if it would be beneficial to you and your horse? Talk to him, ask him questions, find out if he has dealt with aggressive horses before and what the outcome was.

It is impossible for us to say how effective he is as a trainer without this type of information.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Infinity said:


> Alright, it seems I need to clear up some things.
> 
> The first is my horse as been checkedand double checked by several vets. He also had a chiropracter come out and look at him when he first started showing signs of being pushy (the first thing he ever did was insist on charging down hills, even while he walked like a gentleman up the hills). He has also had visits from equine massage therapists back when I was boarding him at a stables (he is being kept on my property now, but this started far before I moved him).
> 
> ...


I have watched my own trainer deal with this with several horses, including my own. They should NEVER turn their butt to you, as you know. What he does to correct this is somewhat what your trainer is already doing-with one hand(the hand one the side of the head in that direction), pull the rope/line so that the head comes toward you. With the other (the hand on the side of the butt in that direction) lunge forward, with the foot on the saome side the whip is in, outstretching your arm and cracking the whip at the horses butt (not hitting it) at the same time. hard to explain, but really quick and works like a charm. So, if the horse is going to the left, use your left hand to pull the head, to tuen it in, and at the same time, lunge at the butt with your right foot and arm, cracking the whip. If, for some reason, the horse does NOT turn its butt, stop and face you, try again, but you may have to actually smack his butt. Not hard, but he has to know you mean business. Use this tecchnique to reinforce turning head to face you whenever he stops lunging. 
Try it-hope it helps.


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

That's exactly what the trainer has been doing...


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Well, timing is also a crucial factor in these situations, if you could possibly post a video of his behaviour that would really help us pinpoint the issue?

There is a training saying that I love and I think applies to your boy:

"Direction is better than correction"

Just means that you are better off guiding a young horse properly and avoiding the bad behaviour than allowing the behaviour to happen and then try and punish them for it.

In your case I would suggest that your trainer needs to be more decisive and aggressive with their behaviour and EARLIER. So don't wait until the horse has stopped and allow him to turn his butt towards you. Don't wait until his ears are pinned flat back on his head, you know what is coming. If he is kicking out you are FAR too late.

When you see an early warning sign, and it may be a swish of the tail, a head throw, a skipped step, drive drive drive with your body, with the whip and with your voice. By the time he has stopped and turned, you have lost the moment and all you are left with is punishment.

Just my thoughts but a video would sure be helpful.


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

That's a really great idea. I will try to post a video as soon as possible.


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## azhorseluvr1222 (Dec 4, 2010)

I am in a similar position. Brown kicks out at me when I lunge him as well, usually when I ask him to work harder than he wants. He doesn't do this with my father in law at all so I know it's me. I haven't been kicked in the head but I have been charged three times by him and he also took off with me at a gymkhana a week and a half ago, which I ended up with two severly bruised knees from an emergency dismount. I notice his behavior changes and he tries to get the upper hand the second I lose some confidence or it isn't clear what I want from him. With him I just have to be clear and confident ( not easy when I am naturally shy and go with flow kind of girl). My father in law seems to think he is playing and sees me as a playmate and I am most definately not playing. I have found a trainer since my fall and have been working off her very valuable knowledge for gaining his respect no matter what I ask of him. Just wanted to let you know you aren't alone : ) I am learning some good tips from your thread as well. I hope you start making some positive progress soon.


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

Hey, thanks, Christina. I'll get a video up here soon so perhaps that will help people (and really myself) fully understand what's going on.


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## horsplay (Jan 25, 2011)

> Even softies like me who work with horses all the time understand there is a time when you have to be aggressive enough that your horse believes you are going to kill him. This has to be done WITHOUT anger or spite (he is a horse and does not fully understand that when he kicks you that it might kill you). But there are a few behaviors from horses that should be met with zero tolerance. Kicking at you, biting you, stomping on you, etc. When these behaviors are directed intentionally at you, you must show extreme aggression toward the horse. This means loud noises, smacks, snapping with the whip, hitting with rope, anything that will not actually injure your horse but will scare him into thinking you could kill him if you wanted to.


I agree with what this says.

My horse used to do this to me and now I hear he is testing my little sister some times in the same way.

When he would turn and kick at me I would smack his hind end with the end of my rope (because I didn't have a whip) not enough to hurt him but hard enough to catch his attention and at the same time I would pull his head around to face me so that he couldn't kick me. After 2-3 times of that he decided that if he was going to have to face me he would charge me. I reacted more than thought about it but my reaction was to first get out of his way but second hold his lead like I was repelling off a mtn behind my butt this, at a weight of 95-100 lbs, allowed me the leverage to hold onto the 1000 lbs running horse. Have you ever seen a dog run to the end of it's leash only to be stopped cold and sent into a spin? Well THAT is exactly what happened to my horse. He was whipped around at the end of his lead rope and he just stopped and stared at me and I think we both had the same reaction "Did that really just happen?" He tried a few more times but each time he did I made it very clear to him that that was not an act I wanted him to ever repeat and eventually he stopped. Now I am working with my little sister so she can re teach him the same lesson.... he likes to test newbies.


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## Pantera (Jan 25, 2011)

Before I post anything,I just want to let people know first off,I am not a huge fan of whips,but sometimes it is necessary to give a horse like the posters a good smack on the butt,not too hard just enough to get their attention.I've delt with quite a few kickers in the past and actually had the same situation come upon me with my new mare. Basically the same thing:Spazz out and gallop around the round pen at mach three kicking out at me,nearly took my head off.I tried to avoid using my dressage whip by turning her over and over again and even tried letting her run herself out.But she wouldn't quit the hissy fit,so when she yet again galloped too close for comfort and when to kick at me I landed a good but not too hard smack on her butt.She stopped almost immediately stopped.Again,I try everything else before resorting to a smack with a whip.But in a highly dangerous situation like the posters, unfortunately this measure is is a necessary measure.

To the poster all I can suggest to you is if you try letting him run his self out,or any other tactics and non work,all I can say is he may need a good smack on the butt with your lunge whip.But again,try other things first.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

If you are close enough to smack her butt with a dressage whip, you are too close, imo. Lunge whip, nh "happy stick" or end of the line- would be better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

Not gonna lie, I wouldn't put up with that. People send horse's to my trainers who have bad behavior about things like that (but not just like that haha ) And he fixes that. He doesn't abuse by any means, he just basically shows them who the boss is and doesn't let them get away with it. Try sending him to someone like that? He seems like a nice horse in the ground, but if he has more energy than normal, lunging is kind of a must, I would think.

I've had mine for 3 almost 4 years and still to this day I lunge him until hes very tired. He's now 8 years old and dead broke. Otherwise, he still tries to buck or the occasional spook at something stupid. But that's just his mentality haha 

Really, good luck with him! I'd be scared of him too!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well, no offense, but some of us wouldn't put up with a horse who is "dead broke" and bucks unless you lunge the $#*t out of them prior to riding.
I do agree that kicking is, at least for me, a "deal breaker". That means that if my horse would try to kick me, he would honestly think he was gonna die for a few seconds. If it meant actually using my whip on his butt-so be it. I will not tolerate dangerous behavior, and I will be VERY clear that it is not acceptable
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> Well, no offense, but some of us wouldn't put up with a horse who is "dead broke" and bucks unless you lunge the $#*t out of them prior to riding.
> I do agree that kicking is, at least for me, a "deal breaker". That means that if my horse would try to kick me, he would honestly think he was gonna die for a few seconds. If it meant actually using my whip on his butt-so be it. I will not tolerate dangerous behavior, and I will be VERY clear that it is not acceptable
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't have the lunge the crap out of him, you just have to lunge him until hes not completely fresh. Which isn't long, try about 5 minutes.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I'd like to suggest that trainers are no good unless they teach _you_ to handle your horse better. If the whisperer's any good, he'll tell _you_ what to do.

Also, I'd step back a couple of steps with the horse, because usually it's not a great foundation if that's happening on the longe. It's just that the horse is telling you in subtle ways that he doesn't get a good "feel" from you, that you haven't noticed. When he gets out there, the subtle turns into obvious.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Clinton Anderson: Move Your Horse's Hind End

Sorry, didn't read all the posts, so somebody might have already suggested this. The above is a link to a Clinton Anderson exercise I saw where he gets the horse to yield his hindquarters. If you do this exercise well, the result will be a horse who moves his butt away as soon as you look at it. I think it would be a very effective exercise for a horse who is pushing the limits in that area in particular. Hopefully there's some video of it too, since still photos don't always show the full effect.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> Well, no offense, but some of us wouldn't put up with a horse who is "dead broke" and bucks unless you lunge the $#*t out of them prior to riding..._Posted via Mobile Device_


I figure a horse ought to be able to work and control himself as soon as I take him out. I rank that in with moving off when I'm getting in the saddle, or just on - the horse can wait for me to tell him to go forward.

Then we can walk forward. If he doesn't like that, we can walk backwards instead. My mare is the sort that sometimes has to check to see if I"m paying attention, and I'd better be. If I let her get away with small things, she'll soon be attempting big things.

Training starts the moment the horse sees me. By the time I get in the saddle, we have 10-15 minutes of training already in the bag.

I'm far too inexperienced to try training a brand new horse, but we bought an unbroke Arabian mare, had a trainer break her to ride, and then we rode her out. We sold her recently, but the Arabian I kept went a year without riding before I got her.

Horses are subtle. Taking one step doesn't seem like much to us, but it is a sign to them.

As for kicking - the one time my mare turned her butt to me while tense, I picked up a rock the size of my fist and popped her in the butt so hard I thought I'd need a vet come remove it. She took off away from me. A couple of stones kept her moving, and then swinging the halter and lead rope. She hasn't tried that again (she has turned her butt to me, but only when she wants it scratched - huge difference in posture).

Is that mean? Well, she's the lead mare. If any other horse we've owned threatened her with their butt, she'd be all over it. Teeth, hooves - she'd kick some big time butt, and there would probably be some blood to show for it. I've never seen a horse threatened by another that seemed worried about hurting the other horse. It either gives way, or beats the other horse.

One reason I sold the other mare was that she hated my gelding. And once in a while, she'd challenge him. The gelding would lay into her and only speed would save her. He cornered her once, I'd guess, and nailed her with both feet, and drew blood with both hooves. So we kept them separate, and I eventually sold her (to a home a mile away, where she is ridden often and adores the other mare - and I darn near gave her away free to get her there).

Horses that buck or kick aren't cute, aren't friendly and aren't broke. The may have other redeeming features, but my mare wouldn't tolerate that sort of rebellion, so why should I?

And it starts prior to the kick...


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## masatisan (Jan 12, 2009)

Hold him on a short enough lead that he is physically incapable of reaching the person lunging him to kick. Yes, that would be very short, leadrope or shorter. The main goal of lunging is to have the horse move away from you in a controlled manner. The smaller and tighter the circles are, the less freedom he has on where he moves, simple as that.


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't think that anybody is fully understanding this, and perhaps it is my fault. I will try to get a video of this as soon as my ground isn't slippery mud.

Basically, this is the break down of what happens. The lunge line is placed on the horse (and for the last several months it has been by a PROFESSIONAL trainer, who I like very much, and has achieved a lot with him, minus the lunging. She begins moving with him in a small circle. The first thing he does is pivot. That is probably my fault, because I taught him to pivot at a young age and have rewarded him greatly for that. Eventually (meaning like, the fourth or fifth try), he will begin to WALK in a circle at the lunge. He does it well until about the third time around, and then without any instigation (nothing has changed with the trainer, she isn't asking him to do anything different), and without getting hyper, bolting, speeding up, or bucking, he just stops and kicks at the person who is lunging him's head. 

The trainer deals with this IMMEDIATELY by yelling, throwing the rope at his hind end or using the whip on his hind end, and turning his head towards her. SHe does this all at the same time, which seems like it's exactly in line with what has been suggested on here.

He reacts to this in three seperate ways. The most severe way is, instead of turning his head towards her when she pulls it in that direction, he well violently buck backwards. Basically, she's pulling his head at her, and instead of turning he's just bucking into her. 

The second reaction that he has done in the past is pretty much the same thing, except he will bunny hop backwards instead of violently buck, and try to knock the person down with his butt. He has only done this with the first trainer, though, who doesn't see him anymore.

The other thing he will do is stop the kicking and continue to walk in a circle for a few times before he decides he's done. If that happens, he will either kick again, just stand there (which he will do, with absolutely no reaction to the rope, the whip, clicking, kissing, or yelling), or coming into the center (again, with absolutely no reaction to being corrected). The latter is the most common one. 

He's really only kicked out of excitement a few times. 90% of the time is when he is perfectly calm and walking. His only warning sign is that he starts to lose focus (whether he sees something or hears something), and bringing his attention back towards the handler only works about 30% of the time.


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

Infinity said:


> I don't think that anybody is fully understanding this, and perhaps it is my fault. I will try to get a video of this as soon as my ground isn't slippery mud.
> 
> Basically, this is the break down of what happens. The lunge line is placed on the horse (and for the last several months it has been by a PROFESSIONAL trainer, who I like very much, and has achieved a lot with him, minus the lunging. She begins moving with him in a small circle. The first thing he does is pivot. That is probably my fault, because I taught him to pivot at a young age and have rewarded him greatly for that. Eventually (meaning like, the fourth or fifth try), he will begin to WALK in a circle at the lunge. He does it well until about the third time around, and then without any instigation (nothing has changed with the trainer, she isn't asking him to do anything different), and without getting hyper, bolting, speeding up, or bucking, he just stops and kicks at the person who is lunging him's head.
> 
> ...


Wow.. That's insane!!

And I'm sorry, I didn't mean for you to leave your trainer (I wouldn't leave mine ever either!) I just meant send him to someone for a week or so to see if they can fix it.

But that seems a little extreme.. Not going to lie, I'd either stop lunging if thats the only thing he's horrible with, or build a round pen? I'm not sure, but mines not very good on the lunge line but hes good in a round pen.

Good luck.. sounds like you have a huge handful!


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

He has other problems, too, but they're easily explainable. He's horrible with the farrier, but at the same time, he's young, doesn't understand, and gets bored easily. He's fine if he's busy (like if I pez feed him treats). His previous farriers just sedated him, which wasn't solving the problem. I found a great farrier who will hold on to him even if he has all four feet in the air or has laid down and is trying to roll over (he seems to think that if you pick his foot up high, he needs to lay down). 

The second problem he has is when you lead him down a hill, he charges. I'm not sure if it's a balance problem, because it's only on steep hills, or if he just thinks it's fun. A place I had him boarded at had a steep hill, and they told me when the sun started coming up he'd run up the hill and run back down, for apparently no reason, until he was fed.

Other than that, he's perfect. He does all the Parelli excercises with ease (except lunging, of course). Nothing spooks him. He pivots, can say "yes" on command, bows, knows the words "over", "back", and "come", lets you hug all over him, mess with his ears, nose, whatever. He's just a big goof. He can be saddled, I can get up on him and be led around, but it's really never progressed more than that because if I can't lunge him, I'm worried about driving him.


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## Pantera (Jan 25, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> If you are close enough to smack her butt with a dressage whip, you are too close, imo. Lunge whip, nh "happy stick" or end of the line- would be better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can agree,as I said,way too close for my comfort,but then again what else was I supposed to do?Running's not an option(worst thing you can do in that situation),working in a 50 foot round pen really doesn't give you alot of room(well at least when your dealing with a horse gone psycho).Best action I thought at the time was get out of her way,and deal out some tough love.It worked,she knocked it off,let her gain her wits for a bit,went back to lunging,not an issue again after that.
Didn't have a lunge whip on hand at the time either,it broke after years of use 
I defiantly would never suggest a client or even a professional do that for any matter,but as I said,tough situation to get stuck in.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

franknbeans said:


> If you are close enough to smack her butt with a dressage whip, you are too close, imo. Lunge whip, nh "happy stick" or end of the line- would be better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree with this. Primarily in the interests of safety and secondarily in the interests of training.



Northern said:


> I'd like to suggest that trainers are no good unless they teach _you_ to handle your horse better. If the whisperer's any good, he'll tell _you_ what to do.
> 
> Also, I'd step back a couple of steps with the horse, because usually it's not a great foundation if that's happening on the longe. It's just that the horse is telling you in subtle ways that he doesn't get a good "feel" from you, that you haven't noticed. When he gets out there, the subtle turns into obvious.


Excellent point, training the horse is only half the battle, and I don't mean that to be offensive Infinity! It is just important that you are comfortable working with your own horse and learn the techniques to deal with his bad behaviour.



Infinity said:


> I don't think that anybody is fully understanding this, and perhaps it is my fault. I will try to get a video of this as soon as my ground isn't slippery mud.
> 
> Basically, this is the break down of what happens. The lunge line is placed on the horse (and for the last several months it has been by a PROFESSIONAL trainer, who I like very much, and has achieved a lot with him, minus the lunging. She begins moving with him in a small circle. The first thing he does is pivot. That is probably my fault, because I taught him to pivot at a young age and have rewarded him greatly for that. Eventually (meaning like, the fourth or fifth try), he will begin to WALK in a circle at the lunge. He does it well until about the third time around, and then without any instigation (nothing has changed with the trainer, she isn't asking him to do anything different), and without getting hyper, bolting, speeding up, or bucking, he just stops and kicks at the person who is lunging him's head.
> 
> ...


WOW. On the contrary, I think I DO understand. In fact this situation sounds too dire and dangerous for me to feel good about offering advice in a forum environment.



Infinity said:


> He has other problems, too, but they're easily explainable. He's horrible with the farrier, but at the same time, he's young, doesn't understand, and gets bored easily. He's fine if he's busy (like if I pez feed him treats). His previous farriers just sedated him, which wasn't solving the problem. I found a great farrier who will hold on to him even if he has all four feet in the air or has laid down and is trying to roll over (he seems to think that if you pick his foot up high, he needs to lay down).
> 
> *Issue no.1: Sedating doesn't solve anything. If anything it just makes things worse. This information tells me that the horse has serious issues, complete lack of respect for people and major holes in its training.*
> 
> ...


I would not be driving him either! No freakin way! 

Please don't be offended by anything I have said, or am about to say but this horse is seriously concerning. Actually I think the lungeing is the least of your concerns, it is just one symptom of a far greater underlying issue: Your horse has no respect. 

In my opinion, I would also be keeping the 'hugging all over him' to a minimum as it is showing him that it is OK to be in your personal space.

At 3 years old he is only going to get bigger and uglier if he doesn't start viewing you as the boss. Sure he might be sweet sometimes but that has no value if he is allowed to dictate when he chooses to behave and when he chooses to put you in danger.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

^^ Good post Sarah-well said. I also totally agree with the trainer also training the owner. Too many horses go thru months of training, go home to the owner, and go right back to square one. I find this with my own guy. I can send him for training, and that is great, they will get him to stop his bad behavior for them, but then when I get back on him, I have to solve it myself. He just tests.....think he wants to make sure I was paying attention.  Mind you it is easier BC if him having been with the trainer, but still....I have to establish his respect for ME.


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## Pantera (Jan 25, 2011)

LOl might as well say people training,instead of horse training XD


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## Pantera (Jan 25, 2011)

franknbeans said:


> I also totally agree with the trainer also training the owner. Too many horses go thru months of training, go home to the owner, and go right back to square one.


Agreed.I can't help but rip out my hair in frustration when I see people sending their horses away for like 5 months,and then when they get back they do absolutely nothing with them and expect when ever they do actually get around to spending time with their horse that expensive training has magically disappeared.


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

First off, he is never allowed to come into my personal space. When I say hugging all over him, I always come to him, and it's always as a reward. Say, for example, he is doing really well standing still with a saddle on his back. I will come up to him and scratch his neck. He has a special spot on the top of it that he likes.

Also, my trainer involves me in almost all of his training. The problem with that lies in the lunging. He isn't really safe for anyone to lunge, and I am by no means a professional. I don't plan on "sending" my horse anywhere. 

He's a perfect gentleman whenever I am around him otherwise. He's never pushy, he's very patient, and every time I try to teach him something new you can see his mind work. He tries exceptionally hard to please. He's even been used to teach much older horses how to act around scary objects, like balloons and noise.


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## Pantera (Jan 25, 2011)

Infinity said:


> Also, my trainer involves me in almost all of his training. The problem with that lies in the lunging. He isn't really safe for anyone to lunge, and I am by no means a professional. I don't plan on "sending" my horse anywhere.


:shock: I didn't mean you when I was talking about people not following through at all,sorry if you thought I meant you.I really didn't.again,sorry about that...


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

Also, I don't want to sound like I'm defending my horse or my behavior, because obviously I know that there's a problem. I just think that there's something else going on. Perhaps I inadvertadly taught him to not trust whoever is lunging him, because of him being twitched? Or could it be that he keeps doing that because one time he was put away for it, and he thinks that if he kicks then he doesn't have to lunge? Could he be too emotionally immature and therefore be getting bored with walking in a circle, and be kicking to gain more entertainment? 

These are all just thoughts that I have been having. Please answer truthfully.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Infinity said:


> Also, I don't want to sound like I'm defending my horse or my behavior, because obviously I know that there's a problem. I just think that there's something else going on. Perhaps I inadvertadly taught him to not trust whoever is lunging him, because of him being twitched? Or could it be that he keeps doing that because one time he was put away for it, and he thinks that if he kicks then he doesn't have to lunge? Could he be too emotionally immature and therefore be getting bored with walking in a circle, and be kicking to gain more entertainment?
> 
> These are all just thoughts that I have been having. Please answer truthfully.


You are right, there may very well be any one of the above, some, or even a bit of all. Keep thinking and trying stuff, brainstorm with your trainer, and work it out. 
I am convinced that when mine behaves badly he is testing me. I am his 6th owner, and he is only 7. Now that it has been almost a year, I am really starting to see that he is bonding more, and investing more....trying harder to please, etc.
Good luck and stay safe!:wink:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"The problem is, as soon as you get him on the lunge line and try to get him moving, he kicks at your head. I've even had him do this for a professional trainer. It's not even him kicking just to kick. He turns his butt at you and will back up in your direction. He's even chased me once or twice. He managed to get me in the chin once. It dislocated both sides of my jaw and split my lip."

"He reacts to this in three seperate ways. The most severe way is, instead of turning his head towards her when she pulls it in that direction, he well violently buck backwards. Basically, she's pulling his head at her, and instead of turning he's just bucking into her. 

The second reaction that he has done in the past is pretty much the same thing, except he will bunny hop backwards instead of violently buck, and try to knock the person down with his butt. He has only done this with the first trainer, though, who doesn't see him anymore."

"He has other problems, too, but they're easily explainable. He's horrible with the farrier, but at the same time, he's young, doesn't understand, and gets bored easily. He's fine if he's busy (like if I pez feed him treats). His previous farriers just sedated him, which wasn't solving the problem. I found a great farrier who will hold on to him even if he has all four feet in the air or has laid down and is trying to roll over (he seems to think that if you pick his foot up high, he needs to lay down). 

The second problem he has is when you lead him down a hill, he charges. I'm not sure if it's a balance problem, because it's only on steep hills, or if he just thinks it's fun. A place I had him boarded at had a steep hill, and they told me when the sun started coming up he'd run up the hill and run back down, for apparently no reason, until he was fed.

Other than that, he's perfect..."

This is not a horse that merits Internet analysis. It is a dangerous horse. You couldn't sell him if you disclosed his behavior, and you'd be liable if you sold him without disclosing. Even with full disclosure, you probably have some liability risk if either the trainer or farrier is badly hurt.

If I owned him, the answer would be a 30-06. Why? Well, I recently sold a purebred Arabian mare, 8 years old, for $600. She is small, but could carry 200+ lbs on her back all day. We bought her for $800, I spent around $2000 having her trained, then rode her until she was more experienced, and then my youngest daughter started taking lessons on her. If she didn't hate my gelding, I'd have kept her even tho we didn't need 3 horses.

She is spirited and enthusiastic. She expects to be treated like a lady and gets bitchy if she thinks she isn't - but she'll give you everything if you just say please and thank you. She loves people, loves to just stand near them, stands quietly while being groomed, tacked up and mounted, lifts her feet for the farrier and was a sweetheart getting her teeth worked on. She can be lunged free or on a rein if you wish, or you can just get on her and ask her for what you want.

Her market value on the current market was probably around $1000-1200, but I didn't advertise her. A couple living near me wanted a younger Arabian so their 27 year old Arabian could retire from trail rides, and she now lives 1.5 miles from me.

And I sold her for $600.

What is the point of keeping a horse that has broken your jaw and acts aggressive around humans? You can make your own decisions, but if anyone gets hurt by your horse, they may think you should be held accountable for those decisions. I don't know you, and you can take any chances you want.

You wrote "...he's definitely a loved member of this family." That's part of the problem. Horses are not family. They are not human. But if my son broke my jaw, or attacked others, I'd put him in prison. The time for understanding would be past, and it would be WAY past the time for asking advice on the Internet.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

BSMS-we are all entitled to post questions, issues, etc, and ask for help analyzing whatever we see as an issue. That is why it is a forum. To discuss things.

Many times it is very helpful in brainstorming an issue and helping us work it through.

Noone should be chastized(sp) for asking.


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## horsplay (Jan 25, 2011)

bsms has a point as to the liability issue and you obviously don't want to sell him so that's not something to worry about for now, also your trainer obviously knows the risks and knows what the horse is capable of and is okay with it so I don't for see a problem there.

I do agree that your horse lacks respect for both you and his trainer and this is where the danger comes in. Even if he is normally a gentleman in all other cases he isn't for the farrier and not for your trainer. I am glad you found a farrier who was willing to work with you against a problem rather than just sedating the horse, good move! It sounds like your trainer is doing all he knows how to fix the problem the same things we all would be doing. I do think though that you may need to go back to basics with him seeing as he is young and has no respect for anyone. A round pen would really come in handy for this. If I where you I wouldn't be asking how to fix his lunging but ideas on how to teach him respect. Respect will fix all your problems I think, the farrier, the down hill problem and possibly the lunging. Work on respect and see where that takes you, if doesn't fix the problem then there is something else going on..... You also need to be able to trust him at all times and you can't begin to trust him again until he has been taught respect.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Some problems are appropriate for Internet discussions, and some go beyond them. Questions with significant risk of death - should I have heart surgery or just hope for the best - are problematic for Internet advice. If I called up the lady who trained our mare to ride and teaches my daughter and asked her about a horse she hadn't met who had broken someone's jaw, she would refuse to say anything over the phone.

As for liability: I'm not a lawyer. I will suggest the owner of this horse consult a lawyer. In AZ, you can call the state bar and they will refer you to a lawyer who specializes in your question, and the lawyer will give you a 30 min consult. The total cost is $35.

I would be very nervous owning an animal that had acted aggressively, and that had the power to kill someone with one blow. Just me. My Internet advice is to call a lawyer and sink $35 into an answer. She might want it in writing.


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## horsplay (Jan 25, 2011)

And if you owned this horse what would you do with it bsms? You said you wouldn't be able to sell it but obviously you wouldn't want to keep it, so what would you do put it down before attempting to figure out what's wrong?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

horsplay said:


> And if you owned this horse what would you do with it bsms? You said you wouldn't be able to sell it but obviously you wouldn't want to keep it, so what would you do put it down before attempting to figure out what's wrong?


From the description, this has been going on for a while. If it broke my jaw, and previous farriers had felt the need to sedate it before working, then yes - I'd kill it. There are a lot of wonderful horses out there that need a home where they will be fed, cared for and exercised. Why take chances on one that has problems that could seriously injure or kill someone?


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Infinity said:


> Also, I don't want to sound like I'm defending my horse or my behavior, because obviously I know that there's a problem. I just think that there's something else going on. Perhaps I inadvertadly taught him to not trust whoever is lunging him,
> 
> because of him being twitched?
> *^^I doubt this, sure he probably didn't like being twitched but he wouldn't form such an association with lungeing.*
> ...


I think the above could very well be your answer and it takes guts to look within yourself for the answer rather than blaming the horse. 

Personally, I think that this behaviour initially presented as much milder and _seemingly_ insignificant actions but in actual fact bore great relevance to the training of the horse. Now it has escalated and you are seing the full blown effects - scary I am sure.

With lungeing, especially lungeing a young horse for the first time, body language is EVERYTHING. When you are lungeing them you should be driving to their hip with your body - open chest facing directly to the horse, staring at the hip. If they stop or even falter - drive harder. I am talking body language and verbal cues only. In the lunge pen, I only like to use a whip if I absolutely have to. Now if they actually stopped and did manage to face me - woooweeee big deal. I would be getting after them with my body (waving arms wildly, staring them down) with my voice ("how bl**dy dare you, get back out there) and if necessary with the whip (couple of good sharp cracks in the air at the rear of their body). In most instances I seem to be scary and dominant enough without the whip :wink:

When done correctly, with the horse listening and responsive, they will continue around the round pen at whatever pace you requested, waiting for your next command. Mine respond to voice commands only "walk" "trot" "canter" "trot" "walk" "halt" and change direction when I close my chest and stand sideways, pointing in the direction they should go. But it started with the basics.

What I think has happened is that you have had a couple of challenges from this horse, without you, or your previous trainer, even REALISING that you were being challenged. However your horse sure as hell knew. More importantly, he knew he _won_.

Now you have a full scale battle with a very dangerous horse. I see that you are into Parelli and I must admit that my knowledge of his training methods is not the best. The only thing I CAN tell you was that if this was a horse I was training and attempting to fix, my methods in this instance probably aren't in the seven games of Natural Horsemanship!

Additionally, as I mentioned before, I am not comfortable giving advice for handling such a horse when the horse is not in front of me. Just as it is irresponsible of us to offer advice to people asking when their horse has a medical crisis rather than telling them to get a vet out, I feel it would be irresponsible to offer to much training advice over the internet to a horse that is dangerous.

If you want to pursue the Parelli methods, or other Natural Horsemanship methods then there is a Natural Horsemanship sub forum here. I know that there are a few people that have a lot of knowledge on the topic and may be able to help you further.

Good luck and stay safe!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

sarahver said:


> Now you have a full scale battle with a very dangerous horse. I see that you are into Parelli and I must admit that my knowledge of his training methods is not the best. The only thing I CAN tell you was that if this was a horse I was training and attempting to fix, *my methods in this instance probably aren't in the seven games of Natural Horsemanship*!


My thoughts too.

I understand the time and thought that goes into some of the training programs. However, I really, really, REALLY have an impossible time with playing games with something that will or does outweigh me 10 times over.

By no means am I saying the horse needs to be beat. He needs to understand he is a horse and you (or the trainer) are the human. No tapping - SMACK when he goes to kick. I would suggest a lunging cavesson to enable the handler to control the direction of the head. A round pen is out of the question while the horse backs and or backs kicking toward the handler.

Bottom line - The hrose needs to learn respect.


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

I am not going to sell my horse, nor am I going to have him killed. If it comes down to it, he can just live in my pasture. But I WANT his behavior to be fixed.

There are a few questions I have regarding some of your responses. Round pen or no round pen? Work with him outside of lunging or lunge him? Lunge him or go back to basics? And if I go back to basics, what kinds of things should I be doing with him, and what type of preliminary warning signs should I be looking at?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Infinity said:


> There are a few questions I have regarding some of your responses. Round pen or no round pen? Work with him outside of lunging or lunge him? Lunge him or go back to basics? And if I go back to basics, what kinds of things should I be doing with him, and what type of preliminary warning signs should I be looking at?


As I previously mentioned ^^^^^, a round pen is out of the question. If he attempts to kick or back at the handler, the only responses are to hit him or get out of his way. Moving away from him will teach him that he is the alpha. Hitting him will likely encourage him to kick at the whip.

I would start back at square one. With a lunging cavesson - or a second handler. Start with small circles at a walk. Walk around the handler in the center as if it would a normal lunging session. Walk, whoa, walk, whoa. Reverse directions, walk, whoa, walk, whoa. QUIT. Establish that foundation and then move up to a trot. Same thing - small controlled circle. Once that is correct, make the circle larger. DO NOT ask for anything more than a trot until he has not attempted to kick for at least 10 sessions.

What to look for. In order to kick at the handler in the center, he will have to drop his shoulder and swing his hind quarters. The shoulder will drop and then the swing will start. The cavesson - with the line attached to the center ring on the nose - will enable the handler to position his head so he can't get around to launch the kick. This also works with a horse that likes to drop to the outside and run out of the circle. The cavesson is wonderful for balance and leverage.

It won't be fixed over night but it CAN be fixed. Work with the horse ONLY when you have time for the session. CONFIDENT handling and body posture will help. Assertive attitude - not agressive. You aren't attacking, you are standing your ground.

Best wishes!


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## horsplay (Jan 25, 2011)

I think mls has the right idea here.... time to go back to the beginning.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Don't just give him a TAP!! I find this very annoying when people say they don't want to hurt their little ponys.. sometimes you have to give them some pain to stop the bad behavior! Don't be so worried!


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I'm not going to say the horse isn't exhibiting dangerous behavior. BUT, to me your clarified description of what the horse does sounds like the horse is simply throwing a 3 year old tantrum. You say this happens "when he decides" he doesn't want to lunge anymore. And it sounds like the more he exaggerates the behavior the more likely he is to stop working. It also still sounds like he is being lunged too close to you for safety. I would work him far out on a circle and use the full leverage of the lunge line as well as a long lunge whip with a very long end that could sting him from far away. If he exaggerates the behavior, you or the trainer have to exaggerate your behavior until he is actually respecting that you are in charge of this exercise. He is not scared of you, and he should be. That doesn't mean abuse, and that doesn't mean hurting him physically. But when you work horses they have to have a small part of them that believes you can MAKE them do what you want. I try to respect other people's beliefs about NH, etc. But if you are so gentle and kind to a horse that they start becoming dominant, that can lead to aggressive behavior, which can lead to dangerous habits. So then is the horse "rogue" or "crazy"? No, all of these behaviors are caused by improper handling. No offense. So if you want to work with this horse you have to up the ante and MAKE the horse lunge when YOU want him to. Sting him on the nose with the end of the whip if you have to. Put a scary raincoat over your head and make loud noises. Whatever it takes to call his bluff and show him that you are actually the bigger horse. Anything that doesn't cause him physical damage is fair game. The sting of a lunge whip won't damage a horse. Try it on your self. But it does hurt.
Maybe you need a different trainer, just a suggestion. I don't want to go down in flames since I'm sure there are good NH trainers. BUT I have seen some of these trainers say that a horse that avoids lunging by turning in to the circle is doing a game, and that a horse that rears when you try to make him go forward is "so playful," and then removed the stimulus so the horse was rewarded. I had a LOT of fun teaching that horse not to rear and paw the air. So whatever you believe, get someone who can not only teach you some of the "good stuff," but also can help you fix the bad stuff.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

So when he is just "living in your pasture," he isn't going to have regular farrier work? He won't need to be led? He won't need vet work?

"If he doesn't start being nice he'll just be a pasture pet" isn't a good idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Infinity (Jan 13, 2011)

We are making a lot of progress with the farrier, but we're still not there yet. He's fine with the vet, and he leads and ties well. By just "living in my pasture", I meant not riding him, BUT I don't want that. I bought him as a dressage horse (he has great movement), and I'm really striving to get better at this, both for him and myself. 

Most of the posts on here have been quite encouraging. I know this can be fixed, and I know it's probably my fault it even started in the first place. I really want to help him through this, and correct whatever fault I have with this.

I will go out an purchase a cavesson as soon as I get to the tack store. To be honest, I have never even tried this on him. I will also start to notice every movement he makes before hand, especially the dropping of the shoulder. I'm not afraid to get mean with him. I think I need to before he kicks, when he shows his first signs. Am I right?


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## horsplay (Jan 25, 2011)

> I think I need to before he kicks, when he shows his first signs. Am I right?


Your right and he is young. He can and will get over this just keep at it and don't loose hope, Just remember to be smart about what your doing and you'll get him.


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## Pantera (Jan 25, 2011)

Ray MacDonald said:


> Don't just give him a TAP!! I find this very annoying when people say they don't want to hurt their little ponys.. sometimes you have to give them some pain to stop the bad behavior! Don't be so worried!


I heavily agree.I don't by any means think you should beat the tar out of them.I always try every other option in correction before resorting to more sever punishment.
And I don't think a good solid slap on the backside would even cause a horse that much pain,Just enough to snap that ****** out of his train of thought,which in this case is kicking.

All i can really say is IMO,I think the poster should stick with her current trainer,sounds like he/she has a good head on their shoulders and knows what they are doing and feels confident enough to handle your horse.(from what I have read at least)
Until that trainer can control your horse with no issues,I wouldn't suggest you do any longeing,But I also wouldn't suggest you stop spending time with him.If you say he's fine doing basic ground work,then do it.Just be on your toes,you can't ever drop your guard around a horse like this.I also agree with the idea he has very little respect for you.I would ask your trainer if they could possibly work with both you and your horse with building his respect and confidence in you.I'm sure they would be happy to do so.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I don't think that you should be spending any more time with horse alone, trying to fix things up. Why? Because you don't know how to fix it. Internet advice will always be conflicting & therefore confusing.

I suggest that you look up that "horse whisperer" & see if he can help, & if not, keep looking for the skilled horseman who will be able to, & _show_ _you _how it's done. 

It's time for the real deal: someone who's spent years learning to feel of & for the horse, & who can help you build a foundation of good feeling/respect between you & your horse. 

Finding that person may take time, but "take the time it takes, so it will take less time".

Good Luck to you & your horse!


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## azhorseluvr1222 (Dec 4, 2010)

I have already posted my expierience but I absolutely agree about Respect, you have to have that from him hands down. I am a newbie owner of more "forward" horse. I have learned confidence and the respect factor of horse ownership well. My step back came from him running away with me and after that to the trainer I went and she started me from ground zero. This woman is as tiny as they come but she is fierce, shes not mean and nasty but you can bet your life that the horses she works with know who she is and what behavior she expects from them. I am so happy that Brown did run away with and that she was coincedentally there to help or I maybe wouldnt have gotten back in the saddle. Brown and I have work to do but I already see the changes in his behavior and attitude. He used to barely flick an ear back and it had me nerous and backing out of the stall(he charged me a few times). Now he doesn't even try to intimidate me. I am his 5th owner in his young life of 8 and mostly hes been put to pature for his attitude. Keep working with your trainer and be safe. You are a brave girl, the kicking thing freaks me out.


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## justjump (Jan 18, 2011)

Infinity said:


> We are making a lot of progress with the farrier, but we're still not there yet. He's fine with the vet, and he leads and ties well. By just "living in my pasture", I meant not riding him, BUT I don't want that. I bought him as a dressage horse (he has great movement), and I'm really striving to get better at this, both for him and myself.
> 
> Most of the posts on here have been quite encouraging. I know this can be fixed, and I know it's probably my fault it even started in the first place. I really want to help him through this, and correct whatever fault I have with this.
> 
> I will go out an purchase a cavesson as soon as I get to the tack store. To be honest, I have never even tried this on him. I will also start to notice every movement he makes before hand, especially the dropping of the shoulder. I'm not afraid to get mean with him. I think I need to before he kicks, when he shows his first signs. Am I right?


I give you a lot of credit for still responding to this post. After people start arguing with me about MY horse, I repeat MY horse, I just delete what I originally posted and then I'm done. You ask for peoples opinions, and then they feel the need to argue with you about a horse they do not know.

Once again, good luck with the horse! I hope he does mature and stops with the dangerous attitude, but if he doesn't, then stick him in a pasture. That's really nobody elses problem but your own.

Kudos
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Northern said:


> I don't think that you should be spending any more time with horse alone, trying to fix things up. Why? Because you don't know how to fix it. Internet advice will always be conflicting & therefore confusing.
> 
> I suggest that you look up that "horse whisperer" & see if he can help, & if not, keep looking for the skilled horseman who will be able to, & _show_ _you _how it's done.
> 
> ...


She has a trainer working with her horse, she isn't trying to do it by herself.
She just wanted ideas and peoples opinions on what to do.


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

Infinity said:


> I do understand what you're saying, but there is no way I am feeding his habit on this. I haven't lunged him in months. He has been working with three professional trainers. The first one dropped him because she got kicked. The second one I dropped because he refused to try working with him (heard stories from the first trainer), and *he does the same thing with* *the trainer I have now*.


Right, so I stand by my suggestion to find the trainer who'll fix it & show Infinity how to fix it.


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