# Grade Horses



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

In the time I’ve been here, I’ve seen a lot of people that claim that this forum is anti-grade horse. With as long as I’ve been here, I feel that I have a fairly good sense of the general beliefs of most of the members here, so I feel fairly confident in posting for the majority.

Most of the places that we see someone who automatically calls us "grade horse haters" is on breeding threads. There is a very big reason for that. I honestly cannot think any legitimate member who has openly said that grade horses are useless or worthless, or put another member’s horse down simply because it happens to be a grade. Buying, owning, riding, training, showing grade horses is not where the problem lies. Those of use that really do know horses know that a grade horse with the proper training and ability can be just as good or better than any comparable registered horse.

The problems arise when people want to _breed_ their grade or rescue mare/stud of questionable breed and ancestry that has mediocre conformation at best and no accomplishments to speak of beyond the ability to turn grass into fertilizer. 

9 times out of 10, if a person is asking “Should I breed my mare?” or “Which of these studs will give me a pretty foal?”, then they are not educated or responsible breeders and have absolutely no business attempting to produce another equine life. 9 times out of 10, an educated, responsible breeder would _not_ be asking those questions of a bunch of random strangers on an internet forum because they already _know_ exactly what they want to breed for and what stud/mare combination would most likely produce the desired offspring.

Heck, most of my horses are grades and I couldn’t love them any more if they were full bloods and papered out the wazoo. IMHO, the _only_ time that grade horses can be considered lesser quality in general than their papered counterpart is in the breeding shed.

It’s one thing if you know the complete lineage of both sire and dam (even if the resulting foal cannot be registered) and you decide on the breeding with a purpose and plan in mind. If you have considered all sides of the dice and weighed the pros against the cons of that particular breeding and the stock is of proven quality. Having balls or a uterus does not automatically qualify a horse as breeding quality.

The main place that grade horses get their bad name is from bad owners; people who purposefully breed animals of questionable breed and genetics (often, these horses are not genetically tested for problems like HYPP, HERDA, OLWS, and the plethora of other completely preventable deadly genetic diseases) . It’s just as bad when owners end up with an unexpected pregnancy through their own willful ignorance.

Members that believe that because “they’ve not _seen_ the stud breed the mare, even though they are turned out together, then she could not _possibly_ *ever* get bred”. Or, members that say “Well, he’s only 2 and hasn’t shown any interest in mares, so I see no reason to get him gelded yet and no reason for him not to be turned out with my herd of mares”.

One member had a rescue mare that was lame for some unknown reason and had a really crappy under saddle temperament, so bad and so dangerous that they were unable to ride her without risking serious injury. So, they decided that they wanted to breed her because “she needs to have a job”. That particular member was utterly convinced that mare would throw the “bestest widdle kyootest baybee evah”. Then they threw a fit when experienced, educated, knowledgeable horse people suggested that maybe the mare’s lameness and/or temperament might be something genetic/conformational that really _shouldn’t_ be re-produced.

This is not speaking toward the people who, either knowingly or unknowingly, bought a grade mare that happened to be in foal. The breeding has already been done through no choice of yours. By that point, the best thing you can do is to make sure that the ensuing foal is well cared for and receives training that will ensure that s/he will be a productive member of equine society. Well trained horses always have a place; they are always worth something, even if they are mixed breeds with no papers. But, because they are not generally as desirable as horses with papers, it is the owner’s responsibility to _make_ them desirable. A well trained grade horse will be worth more to a legitimate average buyer than a wild registered horse any day.

The reason that so many of us speak out against breeding horses of completely unknown lineage is because you never know when some funky genetic or conformational thing is hiding in their genes. A perfectly normal looking, functional horse might be carrying the gene that would produce foals with severe knock knees or clubbed feet or roach backs or sway backs because their parent or grandparent had and exhibited it.

Let's face it, how many people would really want to purposefully breed for foals that would grow to look like this....









Knock kneed









Clubbed front feet from birth









Roach Back









(HERDA)









(HYPP)












 
So, long story short, no we don’t hate grade horses. What we have a major problem with is people who choose to _breed_ a grade horse with absolutely no regard for the health of the foal and no forethought for what the foal might actually turn out like or what possible future it might have. People who only see as far as having a cute little baby to play with and then when the novelty and cuteness of the baby has worn off, they dump or abandon the foal the first chance they get because they didn’t want another _horse_, they just wanted to have a baby to play with.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

:clap: :clap: AMEN!


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Good post. I agree with a lot of what you're saying. HOWEVER, not all people who breed grade horses are "backyard" breeders who know nothing and will end up with a purposeless, fugly baby.

I am a person who is considering breeding their grade mare. She is only 17 months old at the moment so WAY too young yet, my intention is to break her to saddle age 3 and then put a year of light dressage work into her before putting her in foal at 4, to foal at 5 and then wean the foal when Satin is 5 and a half, and bring her back into work. THEN I will start jumping (when she has regained muscle/balance), and won't have to worry about whether it will damage her body to allow her to progress at the rate her MIND is capable of.

My top consideration when choosing the BREED of stallion is whether or not the resulting foal could be registered. That pretty much limits me to breeds that allow partbred registration with only one registered parent, which still allows me to breed to a stallion of the breed I love best - Welsh section D, for a registerable part Welsh foal. I believe Satin's sire may well have a high percentage of Welsh D blood, and if she matures anything like him (looking likely, she has an AWESOME neck for a 17mo), a Cob-type stallion will compliment her nicely. 

My girl's foal will be either a children's large pony, which I will break in and train to be an allrounder and show hunter pony and sell when it's broke enough for a child, OR it will be a smallish solid-built horse intended to be a mid-level eventer/showjumper for me. Satin's sire has a VERY nice scopey jump, and jump is very heritable, so I don't doubt she has inherited it and could easily pass it on when bred to the right stallion.

The stallions I am considering are well-shown for great results, heights ranging from 13hh to 16hh, and all of very nice type. I am VERY picky with breeding animals, they must be of good to superior quality FOR MY DISCIPLINE, not necessarily top level but reasonable talent. Most of them are Welsh (either section B or section D), but there's a Morgan and a couple of Arabians and even a Gypsy.

Not all of us who breed grade mares are lacking in knowledge, just want a kyoot baybee, or a "piece of their mare". I have had comments from people at shows (including a couple of judges) that my girl is going to be very nice when she's all grown up. She has been very lightly shown for good results. Before I bought her I did my research and her sire throws a consistent type to VERY different mares, from part-Arab through TB and even a QH. He has thrown a palomino and a chestnut so HAS to carry red, but has otherwise mostly thrown buckskin. Satin's dam is a black part-Arab with minimal white. Satin's BREEDER is small-time and does not own her own stallion, but consistently turns out horses of nice type and temperament.

Satin will NOT be bred to any horse that tests positive to any genetic disease, and will not be bred to any horse that's untested that's of a breed that may carry said genetic diseases.

Sure, breeding to any old stallion with any old mare is a BAD thing. But if you do your research, know the direct parents of the horse you're considering breeding, and specifically look for a stallion that compliments the mare AND her grandparents, then you're doing ok. I know a few "respected" breeders of purebred, registered stock who don't look past whether it's papered and of the right breed, so it's not JUST us backyard grade breeders!


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Blue eyed pony I don't think smrobs has once thrown you into the "Bad breeder" category with this post....


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

My only quibble with this post is that without the line breeding from the breed registries, I don't think HYPP, herda... Etc, would exist. I think most genetic disorders are more prevalent among the "pure" crowd. I personally dont feel it is my business what people do or do not do with their horses or to flame anyone for wanting to breed, or ask questions. I started with this forum to ask about breeding a TB stallion i had gotten(it was hard to resist the temptation when I had a stallion and a mare). I was lucky to have some sense knocked into me by some of y'all. No one was rude either. Good post as usual smrobs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Nobody meant anything to anyone in particular SH, I just wanted to make sure that everyone understands that breeding grade horses is not a bad thing in and of itself... it's HOW the majority of grade breeding is done that's the problem.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

agreed. but u can get that from registered horses too? with all the new registries they have now it could happan enywhere.
if i had a pali grade (like Charlie) mare or stallion i could "register" for PHBA and technically have a "registered horse" its just all confusing haha but honestly no horse registered or grade should be bred if it has genetic/conformation deformities or problems....


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

^agree. OR issues in the bloodlines, genetic stuff like HYPP or HERDA... that right there of course is the whole issue with grade horses, how can you be SURE that they don't carry those things? It doesn't cost a whole lot to test for them, of course. And then there's the issue of, what happens if somewhere down the bloodlines there's a fugly, and the foal throws back to that?

Colour registration is all well and good but is (and SHOULD be) perceived as far less valuable than breed registration, because a buckskin, pinto, palomino, whatever, is not a breed, has no breed standard, and could be an absolute fugly with very poor/totally unknown breeding, for all the registry is concerned, as long as it's the right colour.

...I am a little bit sore with colour registries at the moment, after finding out that my filly is not eligible to be registered with Buckskins or Dilutes because she has a half-blue eye. The rules specifically state two brown eyes, with her half-blue eye she would have to be registered with Pintos or Combined Broken Coloured and then be registered as a broken coloured dilute with Dilutes... I don't know about Buckskins. She doesn't have enough white for either Pintos or CBC, just a (classic splash/sabino) bottom-heavy blaze, and a sock on a hind leg that has a very rough edge (classic sabino). But nothing bar her blaze and single sock, nothing above the hocks... not enough white.

It amuses me that my anglo arab gelding would be eligible for sabino registration with both Pintos AND CBC, because he has a few small spots of white on his belly, and he's from two breeds that are traditionally only solid-coloured!


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

true. but look at it this way....i love my mare to death and shes is registered with AQHA, shes been breed three times and she was great with it....do i agree with that though? no. because quite frankly even though she doesnt have TERRIBLE conformation, she does have some negative sides. particularly her legs. yes she does imo have decent confo. but i dont breed unless they have ideal confo. 

what im trying to get at is even with the BIG name registries (AQHA, APHA , etc) you have some that are less than ideal


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Roperchick said:


> what im trying to get at is even with the BIG name registries (AQHA, APHA , etc) you have some that are less than ideal
> 
> View attachment 99208
> 
> ...


Very true - which, at the end of the day, is why it is important to have RESPONSIBLE breeding practices, regardless of registry status. Generally speaking, those who have posted threads that have resulted in the "grade haters" accusations are NOT in that category, which is why their plans are called into question, the issue of grade breeding comes up and then it comes to the assumption that the objections are based on the horse being grade rather than the breeding plan being unsound (in polite terms).


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I know that a lot of grades I see are horses that are from registered parents, but they have to be sold as grades because they were never registered. 

My Squiggy is one of those horses. I could go through all the work to get her registered, but I'll be over paying for a piece of paper that I dont really need.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

I have seen a few say they would breed a grade horse because they like it or it has great confo, or is calm. Still why breed it? it is grade. You will have more into breeding a grade horse them it is worth. All of $50 at a sale. No matter how you put it grades arnt worth much when it comes to selling them in this market. 
I have a grade horse. Best horse i have ever had. She works a cutting flag, she is the best team penner i have. She is a good trail horse and has great confo. But i wouldnt breed her. I have wanted to but she is grade that foal would be worthless.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> important to have RESPONSIBLE breeding practices, regardless of registry status.


Agree 100%

If you choose to breed, regardless of what you are breeding, you need to breed somthing that will be sellable. Life happens, and having to rehome your small, brown, badly built, unregistered handful that reminds you SOOOO much of your beloved mare will not be fun. Being responsible for initiating a life without doing all you can to insure the future of that life is irresponsible.

Conected to that is proving your mare and stallion. So many in my area have a pretty, well bred, registered mare(or stud) and start breeding at three. You don't know if that horse will be a cronic bucker, if they have a hidden defect that will cause them to break down under hard work or if they fall appart mentally under stress, or even if they will excell in the disapline they are so well bred/built for. You find that out years down the road(4-5 foals for a mare, many more for a stallion).

I love grade horses, but having watched the poorly built, badly bred results of irresponsible breeders going through the auction for meat, people need to wake up to the reality of poor breeding. 

The amount of people you still hear saying "i'm breeding my dog/horse so my kids can experience the miracle of birth" is disturbing.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

If they do open the slaughter houses up in the US.....the price of all horses will go up.

However, is that what you want to breed for???


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

cowboy bowhunter said:


> No matter how you put it grades arnt worth much when it comes to selling them in this market.


Bovine Poop.

I have just sold my handsome grade gelding for $3700, way above what I am seeing some registered stock go for.

My 2 cents worth.

Breeding grade horses is not all bad, neither is it all good.

Breeding purebred horses is not all bad, neither is it all good.

Breeding is the biggest crap shoot there is, and all you can do is try and play the odds.


My biggest thing, breed for a purpose, a genuine GOOD purpose, which in my eyes does not include, letting the kids experience a birth, having a little bit of my mare, she is to nasty to ride so I will breed her, she is 3 legged hopping lame so I'll breed her.

For me good purposes include..

I think that by crossing A with B I will

Improve the breed
Get a stunning representative of the breed
I will get a stunning sports horse
I will have the fastest horse out

or similar thoughts.

I'm not really that fussed about breed, because I am looking for a horse fit for its purpose.


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

The first picture of the horse looks like a horse I saw when I was working at an 
equestrian center that horse was weird looking but he was nice to ride though 

There is nothing wrong with grade horses. My horse Belle is a grade horse


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

Country Woman said:


> The first picture of the horse looks like a horse I saw when I was working at an
> equestrian center that horse was weird looking but he was nice to ride though
> 
> There is nothing wrong with grade horses. My horse Belle is a grade horse


Nope...there is nothing wrong with grade horses.

But, if I had one...I would never breed it.

Unless...I was in the horses meat business.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Bovine Poop.
> 
> I have just sold my handsome grade gelding for $3700, way above what I am seeing some registered stock go for.
> 
> .


There are some that sell for alot. But i could get Around that or more for my 2 year old that is just broke and has 20 some rides on her.


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## maisie (Oct 23, 2011)

How about not breeding because there are more horses out there than there are decent homes for them? I'd agree with Smrobs that breeding should be avoided by all but experienced people who know bloodlines and can breed around genefic faults. How many yearlings and 2 year olds run through the kill auctions in the US? For every grade or so-so registerable foal that someone puts on the ground, there's a horse that ends up in a truck heading for an inhumane death in Mexico or Canada. They're not all lousy horses. Lots of them are pretty nice horses even pretty nice grades.

Of course, no one is saying that you can't breed your mare. This is a broad question about ethics, or best practices. Certainly it's better to breed to animals of known ancestery and with a specific goal in mind than to breed any old uterus to any old set of gonads. However, what about waiting until both parents have proved themselves in the discipline(s) that you are breeding for? 

Better yet, buy a foal whose breeding fits your performance goals. You'll be more sure about what you get and it'll probably cost you less. You won't risk your mare either.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Great post, smrobs. Frankly it irks me a bad way when I see a thread "Why are you against grade horses?" (and I've seen some threads as well as posts like that in past). Some grade horses are awesome, and some are not, some papered horses are awesome, and some are not and shouldn't be bred ever, etc...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

cowboy bowhunter said:


> There are some that sell for alot. But i could get Around that or more for my 2 year old that is just broke and has 20 some rides on her.



Exactly there are grades who sell for a lot, and grades who are given away, just as there is registered stock who sell for a lot, and some who are given away.

All of which still makes this comment 



> Still why breed it? it is grade. You will have more into breeding a grade horse them it is worth. All of $50 at a sale. No matter how you put it grades arnt worth much when it comes to selling them in this market.


Bovine poop, a sane well broke, easy keep grade is still worth money.

It is just a fact, some grades are crap, some are great, some registered stock is crap, some is great. Some registries are crap, some are great...

It just bugs me no end that people think that grade automatically = low value, simply not true.


BUT

I still don't support the indiscriminate breeding of anything, breed for form or function, not because babies are cute


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

As smrobs so succinctly stated, if you're breeding for all the WRONG reasons (I want a pritty behbeh to lurve forevah) then you shouldn't. That goes for registered horses as well as grades.

If you have no plans beyond the mare squirting out a foal, and have no clue what one stallion over another will bring to the table except that they're 'a purty kolor', then you have absolutely* no* business breeding.

There's no 'grade horse hate' on this BB, only 'moronic breeding reasons' hate. :wink:


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

I had a nice long post done, then deleted it *shrugs*

I have a grade TWH that I love dearly. He isn't perfect, but I don't ask him to be. Would I breed a grade horse? Under very few circumstances, you better believe it.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> Exactly there are grades who sell for a lot, and grades who are given away, just as there is registered stock who sell for a lot, and some who are given away.
> 
> All of which still makes this comment
> 
> ...


99% Of grades go for not much. WHY buy a grade now in this market when you can get a registered horse.
I wont argue with you registered horses can be bad. Back yard breeders will breed crappy pappered horses to get even worse papered horses. 

Ill admit i breed at least 1 horse a year. But my mares are money/ points earners. And im breeding to good studs. The mare i bred 2 weeks ago has ncha money and aqha points and still showing in aqha shows. I bred her to a horse that has over 60 aqha points and has produced over 500 aqha points.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

That's exactly my point, SR, thank you for getting that.

This thread was not started with the intention of starting a breeding debate, I know **** well that there are some really crappy registered horses out there being allowed to breed and breed and breed and breed.

My point about the grade horses is that, even if you have the most fantastic grade mare/stud out there, if you know nothing about their lineage/background, then you honestly will have no idea what nasty genes may or may not be hiding in there. Yes, breeding is a crapshoot, but it is much more predictable if you know what type of genes are going into the resulting foal.

That is why knowing bloodlines are so important in breeding stock. If I know stud is a son of High Brow Cat and the mare is a daughter of Peptoboonsmal, with nothing but good looking cutting horses for generations back on both sides, then it is a pretty fair bet that I will get a decent looking horse with some cow savvy.

However, if I buy a mare at auction that I don't know is a former broodmare from some stock contractors bucking string and bred her because she was pretty or she was sweet on the ground, then I would likely end up with a foal that would be difficult or impossible to turn into a nice riding horse that was easy to train.

Also, my point about the genetic diseases is not that they are the result of breeding grade horses, I know that they got started with registered horses, but if you have a horse that you don't know the lineage on, then they could be carrying the gene for one of those diseases and you might never know it or never even know to test them. Plus, most folks (not _all_, but most) who are breeding grade horses are doing so without doing thorough genetic testing beforehand, so for all they know, they could be breeding a non-symptomatic N/H mare that will produce an N/H foal that may or may not live their life non-symptomatic.

There is one particular person I can think of that really gets my goat with this whole subject. Person has a grade stock horse mare with very poor conformation and a history of neurological symptoms that are from an unknown cause. Said person rescues a grade stud that is assumed to be some form of stock horse, who also has very poor conformation. Person turns mare and stud out together and then is surprised when mare ends up pregnant. Mare is thought to be 370+ days but no vet is called even though person says that "it's impossible that she aborted and was re-bred because I never saw him breed her". Neither horse has ever been tested for genetic diseases which, with both of them being stock horses, they might both carry.


The reason for this thread is because the majority of people who are breeding grade horses are like the person stated above, they go into the entire thing thinking of nothing but a cute baby. They don't consider the quality of the stock or the health of the stock. They are jumping into the pool completely blind.

For those select few that truly have a spectacular and proven grade horse that they choose to breed, those are the types that tend to go into it with a sensible mind and they know and consider the risks. Unfortunately, most people are not like that.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

so....to sum it all up.
1. be responsible
2. know the background/history of your horse.
3. think before you breed (haha made me laugh ....sorry)
-hence breed grade/registered only if its to get a good quality horse that will produce, and contribute. not one that will have genetic/health problems...


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

What are you calling back yard .. cause they dont show ? I have seen a lot of ugly foals from purebred stock point earners champion horses with some plain flat ugly offspring. I have grade horses . Go look at a lot of jumping horses and see how many jumpers are papered.. not a lot. Therefore they are Grade horses. The pic posted of the roman nosed high butted colt.. reminds me of a horse i used to ride as a kid, that was safe sound and sane and tons of fun. And I wish I had one just like him today!! fugly ugly as he was ! The pic of the mare that was shown earlier.. I would not breed, she has poor confirmation not ugly just not that good. You cannot always know the back ground of your horse, registered or grade. I would prefer to see good natured ugly horses bred up to a prettier horse, than a pretty halter horse with a nasty nature bred. IF you are breeding dont put them up for sale, keep them in your own barn. Dont add to the unwanted horse population.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

stevenson said:


> What are you calling back yard


Oh let me see, my list includes

I keep my mare in with a 2 year old colt I haven't gelded, could she be pregnant


My neighbor has offered me a free service to his walker/tb/friesian/shetland stallion.

No they haven't got papers but they are such a purty color

We don't need no stinking vet

I just want a bit of my mare and I will lurve it for ever.


This list should not be considered exclusive or exhaustive, and maybe be added to at any time.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I agree that in this market folks should probably think twice before breeding grade horses. Really ANY horse that they are not going to keep or have a ready buyer for. (High end horses still have buyers I'm sure).

I just never bought into the mentality that they should never be bred on purpose. It would be a sad world if all we had were registered breeds and never crossed anything. The idea of certain crosses are really appealing to me. I would really love to have a draft cross for instance. 

And the diseases that people always mention are really rampant because people are linebreeding pure breeds. So the High Brow Cat foal that everyone values may very well be a carrier for HERDA while the average backyard grade is probably not. Same with HYPP. So who are the irresponsible breeders when you come right down to it? There is no reward in breeding grade horses with genetic diseases. There is no money in it. There IS reward in breeding purebreds with genetic diseases. They are good at what they are bred to do and sell for lots of $$$ so people want to overlook the fact that they are perpetuating a genetic defect. I would never tell someone they couldn't breed their carriers because that is their decision. But IMO they look pretty irresponsible doing it unless they have a plan to try to minimize the proliferation of the genetic defect.

Breeders need to be responsible. But that includes breeders of registered horses. Not all grades are a result of irresponsible breeding. And not all registered horses are the result of responsible breeding. There are bad breeders across the board. There was one occasion where I was riding with a friend and an aquaintance had a QH she was riding and bragging on his bloodlines. After we got done my friend and I looked at each other and said THAT was a registered QH!? I don't care who he has on his papers that was NOT a good example of a Quarter Horse.

Another example are Mustangs. I know Smrobs and myself have some examples of really well built handsome BLM Mustangs. We don't know their breeding, but I would guess they come from the same rootstock as many really good Quarter Horses. 

So I guess that is where I am coming from. A horse should be judged on his own merits. Not his papers. There are some awesome grades out there as well as awesome purebreds. And some not-so-awesome versions of both. And at the lower end of the horse market papers really don't matter much. I have paid less for purebreds than I did my BLM Mustang.....because he came with really important ingredients- temperment and training.


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## redape49 (Jul 29, 2011)

Aw I just want to hug that first pic of the ugly horsey and feed him =(


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

PS. Sorry I take it too personal. But after I read pages and pages of it (not this thread specifically but in general) I start thinking about my Mustang and how if people on this forum had their way he would not even exist. And how he is honestly and truly every bit as good and any purebred out there for my intended purpose- enjoying the wilderness safely and enjoyably. And how grade horses are underappreciated because they are a jack-of-all-trades and a master of none. 

The overspecialization of some bloodlines scares me. Halter horses that aren't sound to ride? Cutters whose skin sloughs off? What is the world coming to? Give me a sound sane grade to carry me out in the world safely.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

My halter horse could be ridden and performed in reining, cowhorse, cutting, english, equitation, penning, roping, and gaming events.

Breeding a lined horse with bad traits is just as bad as breeding a grade horse with no idea about the lineage.

Saying grade are better than registered is just as bad as saying registered horses are better than grades.

*It. Doesn't. Matter. A horse is a horse. Anyone who tries to say one type of horse is better than the other is doing nothing but creating ignorant fluff, no matter what side of the debate you are on.*


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Grade horses have thier place and thier own market.
If they are well trained and have good conformation and minds I would consider breeding such a mare.
I even know of a local stud that is a QH with too much white to be registered. He was given away without his papers. He throws some very good foals. If I was breeding ranch horses instead of arabians I might breed one to him. He is 18 I have seen enough of his foals to feel confident in breeding to him. He has sired some good barrel and roping horses. They are picky about who they breed to him. Shalom


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Great post Smrobs, it's too bad that the point being made gets misunderstood so easily.

As was said earlier, breeding is a crapshoot. That is not an excuse to breed whatever you've got and "hope for the best". What it means is that it is advisable to ensure that the odds are in your favour that the outcome of the breeding will be a good contribution to the horse population.

So what increases the odds?

The sire and dam - good conformation and proven ability to perform (poor conformation can be inherited and reduces odds of offspring meeting expected performance/long term soundness)

The family history - take a well put together, well proven grade. Nobody here is going to say anything against a horse like that. However, if you don't know the history, you don't know if that conformation or performance ability will breed true. The foal can come out looking nothing like its well conformed parents and come up permanently lame in 7 years, because of the variety of genetics hiding in that grade. IMO (although I attach IMO as a formality) if you don't have the horse's lineage you should not be breeding it. Period. End of story.

and yes...

_Registration_ - Like it or not, major breed associations tend to play a major part in how a breed is developed, both to its benefit and detriment. Registration and lineage tend to be a package deal with most horses. *ETA* Db above notes a good example of breeding a grade - a horse that would otherwise be registered aside from a cosmetic flaw, whose history is available despite this.

Mustangs are great, and there are plenty available - we sure as heck don't need anyone breeding them. Same goes with all those "ugly", "mediocre" horses we all know and love. I've been on more grades than registered horses, and wouldn't hesitate to buy a grade that otherwise fit the bill. However, appreciating these horses is no better reason to breed for them than wanting to breed Daisy so you'll have a piece of her for another 30 years. Like I said, breeding is a crapshoot. All you can do is *increase your odds* of having a good outcome. 

Moral of the story? You can breed the best possible candidates *and still end up with a mediocre horse.* Mediocre horses wouldn't just disappear because people stopped poor breeding practices - there is no reason to breed for them.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> if you don't have the horse's lineage you should not be breeding it. Period. End of story.


Goodness, if that rule was in place a few hundred years ago, all we would have would be arabs and thoroughbreds Genetics can skip generations, and crosses can spawn a poor quality horse from two great ones, as you said, a "crap shoot". While I agree "breed the best to the best and hope for the best" I would never put down a grade. Registered or not, every horse needs to be judged on its own merits, not just those of its parents. 

IF I was breeding for a foal for my self(which I'm not) I would breed a proven mare to a proven stallion. I would pick qualities that complemented and off set my mares faults, with the highest likelyhood of producing a foal with the qualities I desire. Wether the cross results in a registerable foal matters little.

I understand that people who breed Grades=irresponsible breeders in many minds, for good reason in most cases. But there are as many or more irresponsible breeders that have registered stock.. People need to judge on an individual basis.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> PS. Sorry I take it too personal. But after I read pages and pages of it (not this thread specifically but in general) I start thinking about my Mustang and how if people on this forum had their way he would not even exist. And how he is honestly and truly every bit as good and any purebred out there for my intended purpose- enjoying the wilderness safely and enjoyably. And how grade horses are underappreciated because they are a jack-of-all-trades and a master of none.
> 
> The overspecialization of some bloodlines scares me. Halter horses that aren't sound to ride? Cutters whose skin sloughs off? What is the world coming to? Give me a sound sane grade to carry me out in the world safely.


How do horses become AQHA champions if they can not be rode???

This is a false statement that some make on this forum...and then post as if it was true.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Grade horses have thier place and thier own market.
> If they are well trained and have good conformation and minds I would consider breeding such a mare.
> I even know of a local stud that is a QH with too much white to be registered. He was given away without his papers. He throws some very good foals. If I was breeding ranch horses instead of arabians I might breed one to him. He is 18 I have seen enough of his foals to feel confident in breeding to him. He has sired some good barrel and roping horses. They are picky about who they breed to him. Shalom


They will have a better place when they open the meat markets up in the USA.


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## maisie (Oct 23, 2011)

> Goodness, if that rule was in place a few hundred years ago, all we would have would be arabs and thoroughbreds:smile:
> 
> Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeds/grade-horses-124328/page4/#ixzz1vneqFPlX


That's a bit illogical. People do breed horses and have developed fine breeds over the years. I don't think there's any danger of horses disappearing for lack of breeding operations. No one is criticizing folks who are knowlegable and breed for a purpose, and that's how established breeds were created. Don't forget though that horses are used for fewer purposes now than a century or two ago.

IMO, and I think many members agree, it is not good to breed your horse just because it's a nice horse or you want your very own foal. Can you do it? Sure, it's a free country. Will you assure that it has the right characteristics and training to give it a chance at a decent life? You don't have to, and many people don't.

Just because there are many, many irresponsible breeders of registered horses isn't a reason that breeding grade horses is ok.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

Ripper said:


> They will have a better place when they open the meat markets up in the USA.


:clap::clap::clap::clap:

And the good horse market will go up. Get rid of the bad, unridable. Un wanted and that mean less horses flooding the market (Yes there will always be stupid breeder) But there will be a place for those horses and then they wont have to go to a rescue, or worse.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Ripper said:


> They will have a better place when they open the meat markets up in the USA.


 Opening slaughter houses will encourage more careless breeding, IMO. Right now horses are not selling well so people have curtailed their breeding. Which is a good thing if supply exceeds demand. I think people should be careful of breeding anything they don't have a plan for. 

Actually my Fox Trotter mare/foal are a good example. The people I bought her from were breeding dude string horses- selling the fillies and keeping the colts. They were getting rid of their broodmares so that is how I got my mare cheap. They were not finding it worthwhile to keep breeding so they were selling off their mares.

I don't want to see horses raised as food animals. We can't change the rest of the world, but we CAN change it here. I don't see it as any different than butchering cats and dogs. The pounds are full of cats and dogs without homes. It is really tragic. But I can't see anyone at this point in time suggesting we open up a slaughter house for cats/dogs. They eat them in other parts of the world, right? Why not butcher them and ship them to foreign countries? In the USA we are supposed to be above that. To me horses are the same thing- companion animals. 

I think that is where a lot of folks differ. To me they are in the same class as cats and dogs. Other people seem to think of them like cattle.


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

I am not into breeding so a grade horse will do me fine as 
long as the horse is sound and has no vices


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

It's like saying "I love dogs but I want them dead. I don't want them to have a chance to find another home. Let's not rescue them or put them in shelters. Let's just ship them off to a slaughter house. We can get a few pennies for their meat." :shock:


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> I think that is where a lot of folks differ. To me they are in the same class as cats and dogs. Other people seem to think of them like cattle.


Do you horses come in your house sleep on the bed? Horses are live stock, no matter who you put it. They are in the same class as cows, chickens, and other farm animals. 
The market was good for horses before the slaughter closed and then it went dont hill and make horses worth not much.
Now when the slaughter houses open it will take several years to fix the market.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> That's a bit illogical. People do breed horses and have developed fine breeds over the years. I don't think there's any danger of horses disappearing for lack of breeding operations.


my point was that most of our breeds today came from people breeding grade to grade and that eventually evolving into a registry. "Joe's" best cutting mare would get bred to "Bob's" Cow horse stallion to produce a great foal to use on the ranch. Many registries alow out crosses, if they didn't my Registered Appaloosa filly would be just another grade qh/appy.

To me the enemy here is irresponsible breeders, wether they breed grades or papered horses

Slaughter provides an outlet for the careless breeders we cant stop, the horses with horrible conformation, bad attitude or that have been mishandled, ruined mentaly, or never handled at all. The cripples that the owner cant afford to put down, or the herd of starving horses no one wants and the owner cant feed anymore. I'm currently halter breaking a 18hh clydesdale stallion that someone 'forgot' in the pasture. His attitude is amazing, but how many people want this kind of a project? Unless a tonne more people suddenly develop the desire to clean up idiots carless mistakes or pay for expensive, useless animals, we need slaughter.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

It is not the same at all, I keep 4 dogs and a cat in a house, they are my constant companions, members of the family in a quite real way. My horses require less of me, but much more space, expensive care etc. It just doesn;t compare.

This thread is not about the great slaughter debate, but about grades...

BUT

Indiscriminate breeding will always produce stock for the slaughter market, as will unsafe practices, stupid ignorant owners, changes in financial status, crappy economies so many reasons. 

Bottom line, breed to better the animals, breed aiming for great show jumpers, dressage stars, show ponies what ever, aim high and those who fall short, as most will, become the riding horses for most of us.

Aim to breed a riding horse and those who fall short become pet food\.

Once a horse is on a plate you will never know if it had papers or not, they are not a cover all protection against bad things happening.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> It's like saying "I love dogs but I want them dead. I don't want them to have a chance to find another home. Let's not rescue them or put them in shelters. Let's just ship them off to a slaughter house. We can get a few pennies for their meat." :shock:


Ok since we are on dogs. Do dogs ever get put down if they cant find a home. So sending a dog in to a rescue wont save them. With horses they cant be put down so they just have to live there until they die unlike dogs and cats.
Since 1998 peta has put down 87.23% of the animals they got in. From petakillsanimals.com


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> It's like saying "I love dogs but I want them dead. I don't want them to have a chance to find another home. Let's not rescue them or put them in shelters. Let's just ship them off to a slaughter house. We can get a few pennies for their meat." :shock:


Ever seen the horrific life an unloved stray dog or cat leads? Euthenasia is a much kinder option. Have you been to a shelter lately? seen any empty spaces? Know how much it costs to feed another irresponsible humans reject? Yes, I think stray dogs and cats should be humanely put out of their misery, what happens to their bodies after they are gone matters not at all to them.

Untill the day we can get rid of the idiotic humans that are breeding poor quality animals in large quantities, we need somewhere for them to go.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

You know, sometimes I think people purposefully misunderstand what is said........


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## sinsin4635 (Dec 1, 2009)

cowboy bowhunter said:


> I have seen a few say they would breed a grade horse because they like it or it has great confo, or is calm. Still why breed it? it is grade. You will have more into breeding a grade horse them it is worth. All of $50 at a sale. No matter how you put it grades arnt worth much when it comes to selling them in this market.
> I have a grade horse. Best horse i have ever had. She works a cutting flag, she is the best team penner i have. She is a good trail horse and has great confo. But i wouldnt breed her. I have wanted to but she is grade that foal would be worthless.


 So your saying if they open up the slaughter houses in the USA you'll send your mare there right?


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

sinsin4635 said:


> So your saying if they open up the slaughter houses in the USA you'll send your mare there right?


x.x no, because that horse has a JOB to do, and isn't taking up wasted space, time, and money.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

sinsin4635 said:


> So your saying if they open up the slaughter houses in the USA you'll send your mare there right?


I am saying I will breed marketable stock.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

I think the point they were trying to make was that if a grade foal isn't worth more than going to the kill pen so that means that would be the same for the grade mare it came out of. A horse of any breeding is worthless if not bred and/or trained for a purpose. A trained and sound horse has value, no matter what. There is always a place for a good horse (no matter the breed) that isn't a kill pen.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

BTW......some of these registries are a joke.

To me 1/2 of anything is a grade.

Many of the color registries just promotes junk.


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## sinsin4635 (Dec 1, 2009)

Ripper said:


> I am saying I will breed marketable stock.


 I was addressing Cowboy Bowhunter.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

sinsin4635 said:


> I was addressing Cowboy Bowhunter.


Well...you got my answer anyway....forums are like that...:lol::lol::lol:


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Ripper said:


> BTW......some of these registries are a joke.
> 
> To me 1/2 of anything is a grade.
> 
> Many of the color registries just promotes junk.


One person's trash is another person's treasure... lol. If you're referring to registries like the Pinto registry, I think the registry really promotes all-inclusiveness to people who would otherwise not be able to compete on their horses. And even though I like the paint horse registry, I looove pinto shows because the emphasis is a lot more varied, and generally more fun. But winning a pinto world championship is definitely not as high an honor as a paint world championship, and even less than an honor as quarter horse, but it affords people more opportunities with their mixed breeds. A registerable crossbreed is still worth more than a "grade" in my opinion.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

oh vair oh said:


> One person's trash is another person's treasure... lol. If you're referring to registries like the Pinto registry, I think the registry really promotes all-inclusiveness to people who would otherwise not be able to compete on their horses. And even though I like the paint horse registry, I looove pinto shows because the emphasis is a lot more varied, and generally more fun. But winning a pinto world championship is definitely not as high an honor as a paint world championship, and even less than an honor as quarter horse, but it affords people more opportunities with their mixed breeds. A registerable crossbreed is still worth more than a "grade" in my opinion.


And I value your opinion.

We will just disagree......:lol:

Paints are more than a color breed.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

sinsin4635 said:


> So your saying if they open up the slaughter houses in the USA you'll send your mare there right?


Well, I sure didn't get that out of their post. I got that the foal would be worthless...probably a lot less than the stud fee even to a mediocre stallion. 

We have three horses, two registered and one grade. I ride the grade. He is a **** good horse and worth his weight in gold. I would not be afraid to put any little one him. Have all geldings so not an issue with me. 

But it takes confirmation, temperament and health to be worthy of breeding just to name a few. I would not breed a grade horse and very few registered horses. Many of the stallions I have seen are mediocre stallions that would make great looking geldings. Just because the horse has parts doesn't mean it should be bred.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

WickedNag said:


> Well, I sure didn't get that out of their post. I got that the foal would be worthless...probably a lot less than the stud fee even to a mediocre stallion.
> 
> We have three horses, two registered and one grade. I ride the grade. He is a **** good horse and worth his weight in gold. I would not be afraid to put any little one him. Have all geldings so not an issue with me.
> 
> But it takes confirmation, temperament and health to be worthy of breeding just to name a few. I would not breed a grade horse and very few registered horses. Many of the stallions I have seen are mediocre stallions that would make great looking geldings. Just because the horse has parts doesn't mean it should be bred.


IMO.....most stallions should be gelded.


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## sinsin4635 (Dec 1, 2009)

Ripper said:


> They will have a better place when they open the meat markets up in the USA.


 I said that because he agreed with this, even though he himself has a grade horse.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

sinsin4635 said:


> I said that because he agreed with this, even though he himself has a grade horse.


Maybe the grade horses in the field down the street from us, who are dying of hunger because their owners have no money for hay, and no money to euthanize them, and the humane societies are full.


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

oh vair oh said:


> Maybe the grade horses in the field down the street from us, who are dying of hunger because their owners have no money for hay, and no money to euthanize them, and the humane societies are full.


And so instead of letting them starve why isn't someone putting a bullet in their heads.... so sad people don't do the right thing.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

WickedNag said:


> And so instead of letting them starve why isn't someone putting a bullet in their heads.... so sad people don't do the right thing.


The same reason why America doesn't allow slaughter houses - it's "cruel". So instead of putting a bullet in a horse's head, then using their flesh, skin, and bodies for resources that people can use, and money that people can use to support themselves, we've been ushered into cowardice and think that letting a horse die of natural causes is the best thing to do for it.


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## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

By the way, registered horses starve as fast as grades. The issue is not grade vs registered. Over breeding is over breeding, and must be stopped. Horses without express purpose should not be created. I am the proud owner of a product of hey he had balls and she has a uterus...let's make a baby. Then they didn't feed her and she was stunted and almost died. She's gorgeous, and will never be bred.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

oh vair oh said:


> The same reason why America doesn't allow slaughter houses - it's "cruel". So instead of putting a bullet in a horse's head, then using their flesh, skin, and bodies for resources that people can use, and money that people can use to support themselves, we've been ushered into cowardice and think that letting a horse die of natural causes is the best thing to do for it.


It just saddens me that we care so little that if we can't afford to euthanize or feed we let starve rather than use a well placed bullet to end the suffering.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

sinsin4635 said:


> So your saying if they open up the slaughter houses in the USA you'll send your mare there right?


No but if i can get free horses ill haul them there for $.
And why would i send my mare there my main horse is worth over $5000. My 2 year old is worth around $4000 or more.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

cowboy bowhunter said:


> No but if i can get free horses ill haul them there for $.
> And why would i send my mare there my main horse is worth over $5000. My 2 year old is worth around $4000 or more.


I forgot to mention If my mare is in foal then that foal will be worth over $2500 weaned.

So i can say i dont breed crap, and breed for the better of the breed and the horse as the OP stated. Know your horse blood. What they can do, and Breed to what will make the foal better. That is the best way to set the foal up for a better life.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

If you put the time and effort into a sound quality horse they have value and they have a market and not only the slaughter house.
Last year I rescued about 7 horses. Got them for free. I have sent 3 of them to be trained as barrel and ranch horses. One of them was a QH Paso cross I sold him for 3,000$. I sold a barrel trained gelding for 5,000$.
Neither have any papers and they sold for 10 times what most registered horse are bringing.
I expect to sell the other gelding for about the same price. I will keep him until I do.
I have also seen many half Arabians sell for pure bred arabians sell for. Shalom


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> If you put the time and effort into a sound quality horse they have value and they have a market and not only the slaughter house.
> Last year I rescued about 7 horses. Got them for free. I have sent 3 of them to be trained as barrel and ranch horses. One of them was a QH Paso cross I sold him for 3,000$. I sold a barrel trained gelding for 5,000$.
> Neither have any papers and they sold for 10 times what most registered horse are bringing.
> I expect to sell the other gelding for about the same price. I will keep him until I do.
> I have also seen many half Arabians sell for pure bred arabians sell for. Shalom


You are right some do but not many. And yes you got lucky, how many people can sell grade horses for that? There are exeption to everything.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> If you put the time and effort into a sound quality horse they have value and they have a market and not only the slaughter house.
> Last year I rescued about 7 horses. Got them for free. I have sent 3 of them to be trained as barrel and ranch horses. One of them was a QH Paso cross I sold him for 3,000$. I sold a barrel trained gelding for 5,000$.
> Neither have any papers and they sold for 10 times what most registered horse are bringing.
> I expect to sell the other gelding for about the same price. I will keep him until I do.
> I have also seen many half Arabians sell for pure bred arabians sell for. Shalom


What horses bring in money today is just like everything eles....

They are worth what someone will pay you when you want to sell.


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## sinsin4635 (Dec 1, 2009)

cowboy bowhunter said:


> No but if i can get free horses ill haul them there for $.
> And why would i send my mare there my main horse is worth over $5000. My 2 year old is worth around $4000 or more.


 Im not talking about what you breed or dont breed, or how much your horses are worth. I'm saying that you agreed that grade horses would have a place to go if slaughter houses opened up, so why would'nt that include your grade horse?


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

sinsin4635 said:


> Im not talking about what you breed or dont breed, or how much your horses are worth. I'm saying that you agreed that grade horses would have a place to go if slaughter houses opened up, so why would'nt that include your grade horse?


Because i have enough hay, i feed her enough feed to keep her healthy she is well taken care of, But i know she is not worth much money. I know she is grade and if i sell her she take a huge chance of going there. I know not to breed her because her foals would be worthless, And that would be hurting the horse industry. And why sell her she is alpha and teached all my young horses respect and she is a good ride and great team penner.

I think you need to take off your rose colored glasses and look at horses around any area. There are way to many that are not well cared for, not taken care of hoofs look awful. But for those people what do you do with them. Rescues are all full, no one wants them because they may be grade, or bad blood. Why breed more grade, bad blood horses, that will never be worth as much as good blood horses.


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## sinsin4635 (Dec 1, 2009)

cowboy bowhunter said:


> Because i have enough hay, i feed her enough feed to keep her healthy she is well taken care of, But i know she is not worth much money. I know she is grade and if i sell her she take a huge chance of going there. I know not to breed her because her foals would be worthless, And that would be hurting the horse industry. And why sell her she is alpha and teached all my young horses respect and she is a good ride and great team penner.
> 
> I think you need to take off your rose colored glasses and look at horses around any area. There are way to many that are not well cared for, not taken care of hoofs look awful. But for those people what do you do with them. Rescues are all full, no one wants them because they may be grade, or bad blood. Why breed more grade, bad blood horses, that will never be worth as much as good blood horses.


 I think your just misunderstanding what i meant. You should of been more specific on which horses go to the slaughterhouse, like the sick, the crippled, or the ones that nobody wants, but you made it sound like all grades should go there. At least thats the way I took it.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

sinsin4635 said:


> I think your just misunderstanding what i meant. You should of been more specific on which horses go to the slaughterhouse, like the sick, the crippled, or the ones that nobody wants, but you made it sound like all grades should go there. At least thats the way I took it.


Im sorry im just use to talking to people who know that horses that are wanted wouldnt be discarded like garbage. But the horse who arnt wanted alot will be grades and horses bred by back yard breeders. Yeah some great horses will go to.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

With 7 million horses in this country and only about 200,000 going to slaughter and probably a similar number being abused, there is a very good chance most horses will not be slaughter bound or abused. 
Cowboy I did not get lucky with the sale of the horses. I took the time and money to ensure they were worth something.
I am giving one mare away that is not breeding material that I resuced. I have sent her to be trained at a cost to myself and found a family that only wants a riding horse. She is suitable for that.
These people may not be able to afford a 5,000 horse but that should not eliminate them from owning one.
The majority of horse owners are not impressed with points awarded by some breed association. They will never see the inside of an arena. They simply want to ride and enjoy thier horses. Shalom


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> The majority of horse owners are not impressed with points awarded by some breed association. They will never see the inside of an arena. They simply want to ride and enjoy thier horses. Shalom


Agree 100%. A huge portion of people really don't "ride the papers" and value a sound, healthy, sane horse that is uncomplicated and enjoyable. There are also several disaplines that are not breed specific but based on ability only. 

More than once I have got a "oh, she has papers?" coment from a buyer that comes to sign the bill of sale. It was in the add and I did mention it, but they were so focused on the horse having a good attitude and being sound they didn't notice.

I too have had no problem selling grade horses in the $2000-$5000 range. None of them were anything fancy, or even trained for something specific, but they were atractive, sound and sane. Sold a grade paint with 60 days for $2500 2 hours after I put her up for sale, because the buyers loved her attitude.

Its great to have a top of the line sports car, but when you need something reliable to get from A to B(that you dont have to sell your home to afford), something less expensive does the trick. I don't need to ride a $5000 cow horse in the mountains.


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## Ripper (Apr 1, 2012)

BlueSpark said:


> Agree 100%. A huge portion of people really don't "ride the papers" and value a sound, healthy, sane horse that is uncomplicated and enjoyable. There are also several disaplines that are not breed specific but based on ability only.
> 
> More than once I have got a "oh, she has papers?" coment from a buyer that comes to sign the bill of sale. It was in the add and I did mention it, but they were so focused on the horse having a good attitude and being sound they didn't notice.
> 
> ...


I wonder where those horses will be in 5 years....10 years???

Are they mares.....will they reprouce???

All you did was lose control of the horese. (IMO)


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## WickedNag (Sep 7, 2010)

Registered, grade, draft, stock or arab types...they are all at risk of falling into the wrong hands and being abused, starved or sold to slaughter. Ferdinand and Exceller both winners, were slaughtered. I will have to go research the famous halter horse stallion that was starved to death by his owner. 

I would and do own a grade horse. I would not breed a grade horse. A grade horse that is trained is worth far more than a registered horse that stands in the back yard. I am sure that Cowboys horses are working rope horses and I am sure he would agree that if the horse was registered it would be worth more than $5000. 

It is sad that people can not see that these horses should not be bred. Kind of like breeders breeding mixed breed dogs and slapping a cute name on them... JMHO


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> I wonder where those horses will be in 5 years....10 years???
> 
> Are they mares.....will they reprouce???
> 
> All you did was lose control of the horese. (IMO)


Well, several I'm still in contact with, including the grade paint mares owners, who love and ride her all the time. One went on to be a trusted 4h horse that is still in the family. One sadly passed away of cancer last year. All of them I got from auction or was given, then put some miles on and rehomed. You loose control when you rehome anything, always.



> Kind of like breeders breeding mixed breed dogs and slapping a cute name on them... JMHO


Little bit of difference between idiots breeding what ever dogs they have and calling them the newest designer breed,( "look, very rare Cockabulladoodle puppies!!!") and RESPONSIBLE people crossing horses for a purpose. I love arab crosses. owned or ridden incredible draft/arab, qh/arab, appy/arab and paint/arab.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Yet again it turns into a "you can't ride papers" debate. That's not why this thread was started folks. Maybe read the OP's post again, and see that there is absolutely no bias towards either grades or registered horses from the OP. She is merely suggesting that people that want to BREED their grade mare to a grade stallion need to re-evaluate why they are doing it, and what they are planning to achieve with the foal that could not be done with a weanling bought from elsewhere.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Chilaa when someone implies that grade horses have no value or that only registered horses should be bred, someone will challenge that. Rightfully so.
A large segment of the horse owning population would be unable to afford horses if only expensive well bred horses were bred. The resulting foals would be too expensive for the average person.
Anyone who breeds needs to be able to understand conformation, have the facilities to care for the mare and foal, and the patience to train the foal . 
Breeding requires planning ,patience, and money. If you are lacking in any of the three IMO you need not breed. Shalom


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

As a breeder you should already understand that breeding well bred horses doesn't always give you perfect horses that are suitable for continuing a breeding program. These culls become the every day rider's horse. Breeding is already such a gamble without adding in the uncontrolled and UNKNOWN variables of using horses who have no traceable bloodline to show any possible problems that may arise.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Chiila I understand that unknown genetics have a tendency to pop up.
There is a QH mare here that has some of the best cutting bloodlines.
Her sire's stud fee is 3000$. She has a club foot. She has full siblings that have sold for over 10,000. She is basically worthless.
I have a mare that was rescued last year. She foaled one of the best looking QH fillies I have seen. Granted she is a Pure QH I just don't have the papers to prove it. She foaled a carbon copy of herself.
I was going to have her trained for barrels or roping now I am considering keeping her for to use and maybe breeding. From my point of view it looks like a good bet. Shalom


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> As a breeder you should already understand that breeding well bred horses doesn't always give you perfect horses that are suitable for continuing a breeding program. These culls become the every day rider's horse. Breeding is already such a gamble without adding in the uncontrolled and UNKNOWN variables of using horses who have no traceable bloodline to show any possible problems that may arise.


Your right and well put, every breeding program has culls. If it is dogs, cats, cows, chickens, or horses. You may get a bad one with a world champion mare bred to a world champion stud. Thats the risk you take.


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Chiila I understand that unknown genetics have a tendency to pop up.
> There is a QH mare here that has some of the best cutting bloodlines.
> Her sire's stud fee is 3000$. She has a club foot. She has full siblings that have sold for over 10,000. She is basically worthless.
> I have a mare that was rescued last year. She foaled one of the best looking QH fillies I have seen. Granted she is a Pure QH I just don't have the papers to prove it. She foaled a carbon copy of herself.
> I was going to have her trained for barrels or roping now I am considering keeping her for to use and maybe breeding. From my point of view it looks like a good bet. Shalom


Yeah you may get a bad horse and that is the chance you take, but you are giving that foal the best chance you can breeding to such great horses. If you breed that GRADE mare your not giving it the chances you would be if it was a great bred horse.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Introducing genetic diversity into any program reduces the risk of genetic disorders. When you enlarge the gene pool you you tend to get healthier animals. All purebred animals are inbred. Out crosssing is a common practice and highly recommended. HYPP and HERDA would probably not excist if breeders were not so enamored of linebreeding. Breeding a grade horse with good conformation has the same risk as breeding a registered horse. Papers only allow you to make an educated guess.
About that filly Cowboy she will not leave here until she is about 3 and will be trained. IMO she will have a better chance of finding and keeping a good home than most registered horses. Not only will she be trained she will also be affordable. Shalom


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Introducing genetic diversity into any program reduces the risk of genetic disorders. When you enlarge the gene pool you you tend to get healthier animals. All purebred animals are inbred. Out crosssing is a common practice and highly recommended. HYPP and HERDA would probably not excist if breeders were not so enamored of linebreeding. Breeding a grade horse with good conformation has the same risk as breeding a registered horse. Papers only allow you to make an educated guess.
> About that filly Cowboy she will not leave here until she is about 3 and will be trained. IMO she will have a better chance of finding and keeping a good home than most registered horses. Not only will she be trained she will also be affordable. Shalom


Yeah you will have her trained. And good but what if she sits for a few years then she looses what you did not her value goes down and there is no papers there to back anything up. 
Breeding isnt all about making money, it is also about giving the foal the best chance to make it. That is why I look into the studs i breed to. I check to see what there foals are doing, check everything i can. I like to breed to what is hot and i guess will be hot for awhile. Any little thing you can do to give you foal the best chance.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

You can introduce genetic diversity without using grades. Both breeds that you have some apparent experience in, Arabians and Quarter horses, are breeds with HUGE diversity already. Line breeding may not be for you, but that doesn't mean that outcrossing to grades is the way to go. 

HYPP and HERDA would not exist if breeders stopped breeding carriers. That is all there is to it. It has nothing to do with line breeding any more - the horses that started these disorders are so far back in some pedigrees that they don't appear until you look at 8th gen or more. Line breeding has not perpetuated them - irresponsible breeding practices have. Which comes full circle - a responsible breeder wouldn't breed from a grade, and wouldn't breed from a HYPP or HERDA carrier.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> Introducing genetic diversity into any program reduces the risk of genetic disorders. When you enlarge the gene pool you you tend to get healthier animals. All purebred animals are inbred. Out crosssing is a common practice and highly recommended. HYPP and HERDA would probably not excist if breeders were not so enamored of linebreeding. Breeding a grade horse with good conformation has the same risk as breeding a registered horse. Papers only allow you to make an educated guess.


Two things...

First, gene pool diversification is sometimes counterproductive. If you cross with a grade horse with unknown ancestry, you run the risk of that horse being a HYPP, HERDA, or other genetic disorder. I certainly have nothing against crossbreeding - but the ancestry should be known.

Second, breeding horses with unknown ancestries violates the very first rule in breeding - don't breed unless you have a reasonable expectation of the result. Lots of grade horses are fantastic, but you cannot possibly know if they are true to their breeding if you do not know their ancestry. There are lots of horses anomalous to their breeding, and a horse that isn't true to its breeding cannot reasonably be expected to breed true.

I have nothing against grades. I raised Araloosas, bred from registered stock, but refused toregister them with ApHC because I don't consider them true Appys, and I left registration as half Arabs to the buyers if they so chose, so in theory they were grades inthe sense they were not registered. Grade horses can be great. And there is nothing wrong with breeding grade horses with known ancestries if their abilities and conformation fit whatever a person is seeking to breed for. But to breed a grade with an unknown ancestry is an absolute crapshoot...sure, it works sometimes, but it is not a prudent breeding practice by any reasonable standard.


Just a sidebar on the grade/registered/slaughter issue. I do get a bit weary of hearing the constant grade-to-slaughter mantra. Grades go to slaughter. Registered horses go to slaughter. In Australia, the majority of horses slaughtered are thoroughbreds. This isn't Australia, of course, but even in the U.S. Thoroughbreds ALONE account for 19% of the horses shipped to slaughter. I don't know if people just aren't aware of the real numbers or what. By the time you add in the other breeds, and when you consider the vast number of grade horses in the U.S., I am not certain that grades are slaughtered in any percent larger than registered horses.

Again, I don't think grades should be bred if their ancestry is unknown, and breeding such horses is not prudent and often results in poor quality horses, but there are far too many variables to make any assumption that a grade horses stands a larger chance of being slaughtered than a registered horse, and the actual statistics don't really support that theory...


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## cowboy bowhunter (Mar 15, 2012)

Faceman said:


> Just a sidebar on the grade/registered/slaughter issue. I do get a bit weary of hearing the constant grade-to-slaughter mantra. Grades go to slaughter. Registered horses go to slaughter. In Australia, the majority of horses slaughtered are thoroughbreds. This isn't Australia, of course, but even in the U.S. Thoroughbreds ALONE account for 19% of the horses shipped to slaughter. I don't know if people just aren't aware of the real numbers or what. By the time you add in the other breeds, and when you consider the vast number of grade horses in the U.S., I am not certain that grades are slaughtered in any percent larger than registered horses.
> 
> 
> > In The are i live in i know that alot are grades and thoroughbreds. But the people who i know hauled horses to slaughter before the ban most were grades because you could get them for cheep. And load a trailer with them fast because there were alot.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

In Australia, I would estimate that probably 90% of the horses that go for dog meat are OTTBs or other TBs discarded from the track.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> In The are i live in i know that alot are grades and thoroughbreds. But the people who i know hauled horses to slaughter before the ban most were grades because you could get them for cheep.


Well, my area is very different. The last auction I was at, easily 75% of the meat horses were registered stock breeds. AQHA, paints and appys, all registered, most good breeding, many with good conformation. There were a few OTTB's and the odd draft or grade who-knows-what. I got an appy mare and foal, double registered, famous bloodlines, the stud fee for the mares sire must have been in the $1000-$2000 range, from the meat buyer. In my experience, grades may be worth a little less, but a good horse is a good horse. I have had no problems at all selling well built, good minded grades, even young ones with no undersaddle training. Most people don't care.

I agree 100% about breeding unknown ancestry, and careless breeding.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

cowboy bowhunter said:


> Faceman said:
> 
> 
> > Just a sidebar on the grade/registered/slaughter issue. I do get a bit weary of hearing the constant grade-to-slaughter mantra. Grades go to slaughter. Registered horses go to slaughter. In Australia, the majority of horses slaughtered are thoroughbreds. This isn't Australia, of course, but even in the U.S. Thoroughbreds ALONE account for 19% of the horses shipped to slaughter. I don't know if people just aren't aware of the real numbers or what. By the time you add in the other breeds, and when you consider the vast number of grade horses in the U.S., I am not certain that grades are slaughtered in any percent larger than registered horses.
> ...


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

Too many horses of almost all breeds as well as grades are bred - that is the problem...

Agree. 

People will never be 100% responsible. Big time breeders, small timers, individuals. The only way to be close is if we only bred near perfect, hard ridden, always sound, perfect disposition, animals in their 30's. Not gonna happen.

There will always be a place for a grade or any horse for that matter, if not it's the owners fault for not at LEAST making something of them. As for being irresponsible for breeding a grade, who cares. I'll call them irresponsible when they mess it up or make too many or try and sell it untrained/unhandled/malnourished/neglected/etc. Same as I call people who breed and sell papered horses under the same circumstances.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

When breeding any horse you must take care and make sure the horses are compatible. If not you will get a train wreck at least half the time, and I don't like those odds.
I have a few people that want to breed mares to my stallion because being an Arab they can register that horse.
I make sure the mare is sound, conformationally correct, and has a good temperament.
I have turned down more mares than I have accepted. I only accepted 5 outside mares this year.
I have no problem accepting a grade mare if she meets the standards I have set. Shalom


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## ARTEMISBLOSSOM (Apr 3, 2011)

I have been following this thread with interest. It saddens me that any horse goes to slaughter, but it is better to go to slaughter than to die from neglect. I am not a breeder and would never consider breeding either registered or grade. I am not a wealthy person and I don't show horses. If there were only registered horses around here I probably couldn't afford to buy one. I have in my 40 odd years of owning horses owned 3 registered horses and 7 unregistered. Of the 3 registered horses I owned 2 were downright dangerous, and one had a rotten personality. I sold them them all at a loss just to get rid of them. Of the 7 unregistered horses I had they were all wonderful fun sane horses, 3 of them I got as babies, kept them their entire life and buried them on my farm, 2 I had to sell when I went away to school, and the 2 I have right now will live out their days with me. When I am looking for a good riding horse papers is the last thing on my mind. I wouldn't breed grade horses but I am sure glad they exist because they are affordable and have made my life very happy


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I have met a number of nice grade horses & have seen some go for good $ too
I think part of the problem is many grade horse are cheaper to buy so many of the less experienced horse owner or irresponsible owner they seem to find homes with:-(.So breeding & training in many cases is done willy nilly which in turn produces lesser quality & desired horses. If that grade horse does finds a responsible home any breeding that is done,it is with more care & planning , with training the same These horses then become much more valuable & respected Horses you would like to see in your yard regardless of not having papers:wink:


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## sinsin4635 (Dec 1, 2009)

cowboy bowhunter said:


> Im sorry im just use to talking to people who know that horses that are wanted wouldnt be discarded like garbage. But the horse who arnt wanted alot will be grades and horses bred by back yard breeders. Yeah some great horses will go to.


 I'm not even going to say anymore because you are so off track it's not even funny! You are the one that is ready to send grade horses to slaughter. Iam so against any kind of animal neglect or abuse.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

sinsin4635 said:


> I am so against any kind of neglect or abuse.


So is everyone else here, to my knowledge. 

You're confusing slaughter with abuse. They're not the same thing.


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## Tejas (Jan 31, 2011)

Here are some pictures of my "grade" horses. I have no idea who their parents are or their previous training. I can only wonder what life was like before I came into their lives.
First we have Misty Moo. I believe she is an Appaloosa X. The vet said she is approx 17 yrs old. She's a hardy girl, a loner, and it takes everything I have to get her to walk.
























Here she is with her foal before I bought her back years ago 








And the foal all grown up (the dumb lady never weaned him. He was still nursing at 5 yrs old...hes HUGE)










And here is my other horse Oliver aka Ollie. I've been told he is Spanish Mustang X bc of his hips, and narrow build. Ollie is about 5 yrs old, and he's a little spitfire. It takes a little work to get him in the right mindset, but after a warm up he's a joy!


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

I would rather have a good grade horse than a high strung nervous nelly


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## Tejas (Jan 31, 2011)

Meeee too. Thats how I got Ollie. I had a filly that I was working with and simply didn't have the time to train her. I traded a paint for a paint. She went to a trainer, and the trainer gave me her little paint gelding -Apache..now Ollie!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Country Woman said:


> I would rather have a good grade horse than a high strung nervous nelly


And yet registered does not equal nervous and high strung. Training or lack of does. Which can happen to a grade too, so your point is completely invalid to the discussion, which is still miles off the original topic.


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## WyomingSissy (Apr 11, 2012)

i really like this thread! i'm not an expert on breeding by any means. but i did click on it because my sister and i both own grade horses, we own two sister paints, and i also own a qh/arab something or toehr, not sure about her.

but we are considering breeding them down the road, because my qh mix mare has sure and solid feet, good hq and shoulders. she does hav IAd at the moment, but i hope she'll grow out of it. she is an amazing ranch and mtn horse. she has stamina and very good gaits. she's currently my calvary/drill horse and is excelling. all in all she's an excelent horse.

the paints, i own the younger one by a year so she still has some things she's hiding i could say 

but the older sister: BARRELS!! memorized the pattern 2nd time around! she has amazing speed, super smooth gaits. nice build.

and her sis so far is traveling down the same road.

in my history of owning animals, mixed breeds are amazing. yes you will come across some...sickly(?) ones, but you also do in purebred anything. especially dogs, because people are focusing on the look, not health.

i've owned many mixed breeds and some purebreds and the mixes have always been great. the only pure horse i own is an OTTB. ad my sis has an APHA gelding and they're both great horse too!the others breed wise, i really have to guess what breed they could be from, but they are still good solid horses when it comes down to it. but my heart will always belong to the mixes, muts and mongrels and grades of the world 

in the end

love the thread, deffinately agree! (just adding support for all the good grades


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## maisie (Oct 23, 2011)

> But we are considering breeding them down the road, because my qh mix mare has sure and solid feet, good hq and shoulders. She does hav IAd at the moment, but I hope she'll grow out of it. She is an amazing ranch and mtn horse. She has stamina and very good gaits. She's currently my calvary/drill horse and is excelling. All in all she's an excelent horse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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