# Crop or not?



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

There is nothing wrong with having a crop with you - you don't have to use it but it's good to know how to handle it. Although your horse may not need it, others you ride may and it's a good aid to be able to call on when you need it. There is nothing cruel about a crop - only the hands of an uneducated rider.


----------



## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

I carry a crop on every horse no matter what. It's a sound training principle. 

One of my horses (the bay in my album) was extremely sensitive and very brave and forward and never needed it, but I carried it anyway on the off chance that in front of a strange or unfamiliar fence he would suck back behind my leg. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

So, yes, I think you should have gone ahead and taken one whether you thought you needed it or not. In a perfect world, your instructor should have done a better job of explaining her reasoning to you.


----------



## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

ITA with both the above. Take the crop and stop making a big deal of it.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I agree with iride, maura and mac.

If your instructor requires you to carry one, then you carry one. You don't _have_ to use it.

I carry one pretty much every ride, and have for years. I've rarely used it, but once in a great while it comes in handy.

It's merely a tool, not an instrument of torture.

Plus, it's good to learn how to carry one in either hand while riding. It's a skill you may need at some point.


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I see both points here--why should you have to carry one, but she _is _the instructor. While I personally think it would have been better to let you go at the CC course on the off chance I was proven right--that you need a crop (as the instructor), its her perrogative to do what she wants, since you're paying for her instruction. If you don't like it, find someone else!


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Take the crop and stop making a big deal of it. 
themacpack-it is a deal to me. I would rather my horse responded instantly off my leg every single time then resorting to a crop. 

I do use them on my othere horses as they require one but to me if as the rider you know you dont need certain tools to ride your horse why should they be forced on you?

My horse came from a VERY spoilt back round she never had to do anything she didnt want so originally i have used aids on her but no there not needed and i just dont understand why i MUST use one?

If i was proved wrong that she refused etc etc I would be the first to say ok give me the crop.

BUT 99% of refusals are riders fault so if your horse refused the same fence and you had a crop on your hand chances are you are going to use where as if its not there your first reaction is to change yourself.

Like i dont dislike crops themselves i use both crops and spurs on a lot of my horses but they require the extra aids that was my issue. I have never required them so why use them. 

Iv competed everywhere and am yet to need them on this horse.

So what is it with instructers feeling that crops are neccessary to get around somewhere clear?
​


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

she didnt say you had to use it, just carry it. it is especially good to have on xc, because you need to be sure that your horse is reponding to your aids right when you give them. no one thinks you need to use your crop to have a clear round, but its good to have one just in case you need it.

dont go to war with out your weapons !


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

I know where your all coming from on certain of my horses i take no where with out a crop ever. But if i have competed everyweekned for 3years with no crop and no problem(the instructer knows this) surely i should be able to go into my own cross country course with no crop.

Ok if we went somewhere new and big ye i probably would have humoured her, But in my own house thats ridiculous!!


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I think it would be one thing if she argued that you had to USE it, but 99% of the time, simply carrying the crop in the first place will cut out any refusals you may have. ESPECIALLY if she comes from a "spoiled" background, why would you take the chance that she might throw a hissy fit and refuse?

Since we're arguing about tools, why use reins, or a bit, or a saddle? If you're really that great of a rider to be arguing about what your instructor tells you to do, go out there with no tack holding onto the mane and see how many jumps you can stay on for.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

If you don't want to listen to this instructor, then find another one. That's really the only option you have.

When you're taking lessons from someone you're _supposed_ to be following their instructions, not arguing with them. If you think you know better than this person, why are you wasting their time and your parents' money?


----------



## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

You are using an instructor to get instruction - which is no use if you aren't going to listen to that instruction. As SpeedRacer said, if you aren't going to listen, get a new instructor. You are really making a much bigger production of this whole thing than it needs to be.


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

What exactly is the point of this? I don't need to use a crop on any of my horses, but when my last instructor asked me to carry one, I had much better things to do than argue with her. There is no harm in carrying a crop so why fuss over it? My dad had a saying when I was growing up that haunts me to this day, "in another 10 years, you will forget all about it, so why bother worrying about it now". Carry the crop, get over yourself, and enjoy the ride! It is not hurting anyone, so when you are riding under someone else, you follow their rules.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

She is the only instructer available. We have worked together 3times a week now for about a month and get on very well iv never had issues before wiht anything.

But if somebody tells me to use something on my horse for no reason i dont see why i should. Thats like saying put on spurs they dont come inot effect unless you want them. But if there available to you chances are you will use them if you have the first signs of an argument whereas with this particular horse i would rather work through whats could be causing the issues then just forcing her to get on with it. 

How many times have you seen a horse refuse blatently because of a rider at a competition and get smacked over the jump. In a stressful situation id rather not have something there on the off chance you could misuse it. 

If im paying someone to help me improve my riding and they onnly know my horse a short lenght of time they should also listen to me as well as i know the most about the horse. Unless she can give me a valid reson why i need to carry a crop i honestly just dont see why i should. Her reasoning was that you cant go cross country with out one. That is not reason enough of course you can go with out one i have often enough my horses know there own cross country course in fairness if iv trouble getting around my own course iv no reason to bring her anywhere.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

I'll tell y'all what the point of this is; this child thinks she knows more than anyone else.

Youth is curable though, and about the time someone turns 25-30, they've usually had enough knock downs and immersion in real life to realize they're not the fountain of all wisdom, and just _maybe_ someone else has something to teach them. :wink:

Until then though, of _course_ she knows all there is to know about riding and training.

If I were the instructor, I'd tell her parents I wouldn't be back. She's not worth dealing with, with her know-it-all, entitled attitude. 

I blame her parents. Sounds like they've forgotten to tell Sweetums that she's_ not_ the center of the universe.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Sorry flitterbug we posted the same time. Its more of a rant really. I dont expect things to be forced onto me when i dont want to use them is the point. 
Im not arguing with her i questioned her decisions not all horses need encouragement sure having it there is great in a scenario where there is not a chance to school them over the problem fence.

But if i had problems i could schoool her all day over the fence seeing as its in my house. Like id have one if i was away from home all the time in the trailer in case she was in a mood but at home i dont see the need.


----------



## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

I agree with everyone else. I can jump my horse fine no crop no spurs, but I take them out with me every time because I never know how he'll react to things. One day he's totally fine with something, the next he spooks at it. It's just how horses are. A prime example. My horse has seen this one water jump before but at our last comp. he did NOT want to go in there! So it was nice having my spurs to go, HEY! and the jump isn't always going to look the same to the horse. you don't go into battle without a gun. But of course you know much better than a person being paid to teach you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MaggiStar said:


> She is the only instructer available. We have worked together 3times a week now for about a month and get on very well iv never had issues before wiht anything.
> 
> But if somebody tells me to use something on my horse for no reason i dont see why i should.
> 
> If im paying someone to help me improve my riding and they onnly know my horse a short lenght of time they should also listen to me as well as i know the most about the horse. Unless she can give me a valid reson why i need to carry a crop i honestly just dont see why i should.


Wow! I read through the whole discussion and I'm sorry but it sounds very very childish. She didn't tell you to USE it on your horse, she told to CARRY one with you just in case, at least how it sounds from your original post. And if you are saying she's a good instructor and everything went so nice then WHY TO SCREW THE RELATIONS with her just because you are being stubborn? :-| A really good instructor (and we have LOTS of different around here) is very hard to find, and sometime it's even harder to find one you get along with well. They are people too and may just turn you down at some point if you don't want to follow what they say, don't respect what they teach, and they have enough customers (and that would be right way to go IMHO). 

There is nothing wrong with carrying crop with you, as already mentioned top riders here with very well trained -sensitive- horses keep one just in case. NOONE can force you to use it if it's not needed.


----------



## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

It isn't for you to "see the point" (or need) - it is for you to follow the instructions being given to you.


----------



## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Keep up the attitude you are displaying (and display it to the instructor) and you won't have to worry about it, she may decide to drop you rather than you having to decide whether or not to drop her.


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I couldn't understand that last sentence at all. Why are you asking the question if you only want one answer? A crop is to be used as an aide, not a weapon. When I'm on multiple horses per day, spurs are used to clarify my request, to keep communication clear. 

You asked everyone's opinion. If I was in your situation and the trainer asked me to carry a crop, I would respect their request whether I would have to use it or not. In the large scheme of things, it really doesn't matter. I wish the biggest thing I had to worry about on any given day was whether or not I should carry a crop. 

Also, not to sound full of myself, but I (or any respectable trainer that I know) can read a horse well. If I (or again other trainers) were working with a student 3 days per week for a month, I would be pretty comfortable in how well I know your horse. I usually do a one hour consultation with people and already know their horse better than they do. Other professionals that I know (trainers, farriers, dentists, vets, etc) can read horses just as well or better.

No one is saying beat the horse with a crop, they are just saying to respect the opinion of the person that you are paying or find someone whose opinion you agree with. Yes, it is often the riders fault that the horse refuses, just because you are carrying a crop doesn't mean that you have to beat her over the jump if you are messing up. To be honest, if you are that worried about responding like that, then the little kid jumps is where you should be until you are more secure in yourself and in your horse. If you don't want opinions, don't ask the question.


----------



## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

I have been riding for a lot of years, strictly trail riding for fun. I never had the opportunity or extra money to take lessons. I hope someday I will have the chance. 
You are very lucky that your parents are in a position to be able to afford this opportunity for you.
Carry the crop, learn to use it as an aide and with finesse. If that is how you view it, as an aid and not just a whacking stick, then it should not be an issue. Just as you should be able to wear spurs but not use them unless necessary.
If as you say there is no other trainer available, then you may find yourself without one.
You already know she means business by making you ride in the 'kids' area when you did not comply last time. 
Like you said, she is not asking you to use, just to carry it. Save your battles for something more important.
Good luck!


----------



## Chella (May 23, 2009)

If you know your horse and he/she does not need it don't bring it. I have a very forward Morgan and If he even sees a crop he would freak. I have a very laid back AQHA who needs to see it. Stay true to your beliefs and trust your gut you are the expert of your horse not a "trainer". I commend you for knowing who you are and trying to stick to your beliefs! I well trained horse does not need a crop. or a bit. or a rein. Ask a Native American.


----------



## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Chella said:


> If you know your horse and he/she does not need it don't bring it. I have a very forward Morgan and If he even sees a crop he would freak. I have a very laid back AQHA who needs to see it. Stay true to your beliefs and trust your gut you are the expert of your horse not a "trainer". I commend you for knowing who you are and trying to stick to your beliefs! I well trained horse does not need a crop. or a bit. or a rein. Ask a Native American.


Well, I hope she enjoys her time on the bunny slope following your sage advice.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

themacpack said:


> Well, I hope she enjoys her time on the bunny slope following your sage advice.


Mac, you beat me to it! :rofl:


----------



## claireauriga (Jun 24, 2008)

If you have an issue with how your instructor motivates and disciplines your horse, discuss it with them. But in this case she wasn't even asking you to use a particular aid on your horse. She was asking you to carry a crop as a precaution. Assuming the crop doesn't severely inconvenience you, a precaution isn't worth arguing over.

I know some horses are affected by their rider carrying a whip, even if they never use it. If for some reason you have concerns about that, then you should discuss them respectfully on the ground with your instructor. On the ground. Not when you're about to ride, not when tensions are high. Because it's going to be a long discussion about your training ethos, your long-term goals for your horse and your riding, and how you and your instructor can work together to reach those goals.

Wanting your horse to be responsive to leg and not to need additional aids is an admirable goal, but I doubt it's your life's mission. You don't have to use a whip if you carry it. If you're concerned you wouldn't be able to avoid using it, express that to your instructor. Not 'I won't carry a crop' but 'I'd rather not use the crop, how can I make sure I don't unthinkingly react with it when I ride?'.


----------



## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Have you stopped to think that it may not have even been about carrying a crop but more about how you take (or, in this case, don't take) instruction?


----------



## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

If a horse freaks when he sees a crop, he has obviously been abused with one. 
A horse should never be afraid of a whip or crop if they have been used correctly. 
I love making my lunge whip CRACK! But then I can immediately rub it over Spike's face. He has never been beaten, he is not afraid.
Naive Americans DID use reins. Look up what a war bridle is. Pretty harsh.
Yes, you should absolutely stay true to your beliefs, but look at the situation.
This is a young person taking lessons under an instructor. If she trusts the instructor, she should do as she is told. She can absolutely ask questions, but no foot stomping and saying 'no, my horsey doesn't need that'.
If she has serious doubts about the instructor, she should stop lessons and find a new one.
She was not asked to beat the horse. She was asked to carry the crop. 
Huge difference.


----------



## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> *If a horse freaks when he sees a crop, he has obviously been abused with one. *
> A horse should never be afraid of a whip or crop if they have been used correctly.
> I love making my lunge whip CRACK! But then I can immediately rub it over Spike's face. He has never been beaten, he is not afraid.
> Naive Americans DID use reins. Look up what a war bridle is. Pretty harsh.
> ...


To add - the best thing to do if that were the case would be to do the horse a favor by working with them to overcome that.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

I'll tell y'all what the point of this is; this child thinks she knows more than anyone else.*
1-I dont think i know more then anyone I know my horse more then anyone DIFFERENCE
* 
Youth is curable though, and about the time someone turns 25-30, they've usually had enough knock downs and immersion in real life to realize they're not the fountain of all wisdom, and just _maybe_ someone else has something to teach them. :wink:
*2- Im not a child so please dont assume i am. I have spent my childhood working in yards showjumping, breeding, riding schools. I listen to all instruction i get so please dont assume different. When a reasoning isn't explained that means the person stating is not quite sure why they are requesting if a valid reason had been given ok fine but it wasn't*

Until then though, of _course_ she knows all there is to know about riding and training.
*3-When did i ever say iv learnt all there is Im not quite sure what your getting at here I dont think we ever finish learning*

If I were the instructor, I'd tell her parents I wouldn't be back. She's not worth dealing with, with her know-it-all, entitled attitude. 
*4-my lessons are nothing to do wiht my parent i model and pay for them myself. Im not a child so she cannot by pass me and go straight to my parents, and with my horses no matter what age i was ruling comes down to me there all bought by me so any decisions are made by me.I do not have a know it all attitude please ask anyone of the successful yards i have worked at and you will find i have an eager to learn attitude but of course with three posts you have figured out all about me. I dont feel im entitled to anything and i dont see your point in trying to make assumptions about me and my personality over a forum. I come from a large family and entitled to anything wouldnt be a word in my house. I am a full time vetinary student in colllege i also model full time to pay for my horses so how im entitled i dont know.* 

I blame her parents. Sounds like they've forgotten to tell Sweetums that she's_ not_ the center of the universe.
*This is possibly the most OBNOXIOUS thing iv ever seen posted and why you even felt the need to criticise my parents is beyond me you have NO odea about me, my life, my family and to make such propsterous assumptions is 100% out of order. My parents have raised 5children each of us is successful in our own right. They have raised us brilliantly and to think you make such disparging remarks about my family is the reason im considering terminating my membership to this forum
*

Everyone on this forum is from different countries and back rounds so i dont see why you get away with telling me that my theory in how i want to ride my horse is wrong. I found out that in this forum its the AMerican way of doing things despite the fact were not all from America and have different teaching styles and learning environments are methids are instantly wrong.

Flitterbug- I was selected to represent my country at the eventing championships so i think my riding is up to scratch.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> She can absolutely ask questions, but no *foot stomping and saying 'no, my horsey doesn't need that'*.


Actually I did it with one instructor I used for month or so. She ripped me off on bunch of money (like buying super expensive pad through her, which "will improve your riding", of course it didn't, only lessons can). When she said she'll go to the store with me and pick what she thinks should go on my horse (like flash, which my horse doesn't need at all, bit harsher then mine, which again my very laid back horse doesn't need, etc.) and of course I have to pay for all these equipment (because you know I'm a money machine :shock: ) I said "that's enough" and stopped all lessons with her. So situations can be different.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

themacpack said:


> To add - the best thing to do if that were the case would be to do the horse a favor by working with them to overcome that.


Exactly. 

_None_ of mine are afraid of my various whips, crops and bats. I can rub the horses all over with them, even on their faces.

If I'm in the saddle and the horse needs correction, he'll get tapped. That's _far_ from being abusive. 

Citing the Native American warriors as being gentle with their horses? Please, don't make me laugh! They didn't have time to baby their animals and play the "Touch the Booty" or "Porcupine" games with them. The animals had to be trained quickly, and that meant some pretty rough handling.

Waxing poetic about the 'natural' methods used by the NAs is nothing but a Disney fairytale.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MaggiStar said:


> Everyone on this forum is from different countries and back rounds so i dont see why you get away with telling me that my theory in how i want to ride my horse is wrong.* I found out that in this forum its the AMerican way of doing things *despite the fact were not all from America and have different teaching styles and learning environments are methids are instantly wrong.


I gonna disagree with this statement. There is plenty of people from Australia and Europe here who give their opinions and different approaches.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Chella my horse reacts very badly to a crop which has been expressed to my instructer I dont know why. 
However I dont see why bringing the crop into an open space wold benefit either of us therefore i leave it not worth the added drama.

themacpack what a very narrow minded reply how come because we dont use crops mean were on bunny slopes that is absolutley ridiculous. 
If my horse jumps without a smack then its not needed yet of course im clearly wandering around an arena unable to ride beacuse i dont believe i need one.


----------



## Cougar (Jun 11, 2009)

I would've personally just taken the crop and rode on as you can hold one without ever using one. It's a good aid to have. However, if you don't want to ride with one so be it. You don't have to. Just like your instructor doesn't have you let you on the larger fences without one.


----------



## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Anky Van Grusmen is an international gold medalist, is she a good rider and horsewomen?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cougar (Jun 11, 2009)

MaggiStar said:


> Chella my horse reacts very badly to a crop which has been expressed to my instructer I dont know why.
> However I dont see why bringing the crop into an open space wold benefit either of us therefore i leave it not worth the added drama.
> 
> themacpack what a very narrow minded reply how come because we dont use crops mean were on bunny slopes that is absolutley ridiculous.
> If my horse jumps without a smack then its not needed yet of course im clearly wandering around an arena unable to ride beacuse i dont believe i need one.


Have you considered maybe taking something softer out with you? My guy was sensitive to whips too but he responds erally well to soft pieces of fabric being used the same way a crop would be. Just tossing the idea out there you may be able to compramise and both be happy.


----------



## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

Maggistar

I'm sorry. I too make an assumption from the other posts that you were a young teen. (Maybe you mentioned your mom? ) So I thought that your parents were paying.
Good for you for working for your own lessons.
If I were you, I would still bite the bullet on this one. If your instructor is good in most other aspects and you don't want to lose her, I would just carry the crop. 
She can't make you use it, but it doesn't hurt anyone for you to carry it.


----------



## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

Kittenval

Agreed! Lol! Was not talking about buying stuff! I am the first one to admit that my horsey does not need anything out of my price range!
I am the one who needs and wants all the expensive stuff!!
Why oh why didn't I marry rich???


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

MaggiStar said:


> She DEMANDED i brought a crop out cross country and i was not going out without one. I have never used a crop EVER on this particular horse there is just no need she is so sensitive that iv never kicked her all i do is squeeze.
> 
> I explained that to my instructer that i didnt feel comfortable using a stick when it was not needed.
> 
> She replied you dont go cross country with out a crop now never mind that iv competed this horse every weekend and yet am to need a crop she is just an eager to please foreward going horse.


Your initial post - you have never EVER used a crop on this horse. In later responses you say the horse reacts badly when she sees one. Which is it?

Look at FEI level riders. They have crops. They might have them in their in the top of their boot, but they have them. ONE refusal and the whole course can be lost.

If you are such a good rider that you don't need to follow advice, why are you taking lessons?


----------



## Nutty Saddler (May 26, 2009)

You never know what may happen or what situation you may find yourself in.

Like some other things in life - I would rather have one and not need it than need it and not have one.


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

I never said that your riding wasn't up to scratch, I said that if you are not confident enough that you can't ride through a tough situation with a crop available without using it incorrectly, then you should not be jumping so high as to test that situation. I was simply using what you had already stated when you gave the reason that you didn't want to use a crop.

Beyond that, where you stated your horse didn't like crops (even though never been used on her?) I agree with the others, that would give me all the more reason to carry one.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Cougar- No i never considered that i might try that at our next lesson and see can an agreement be made.

MLS- The reason we know she has issues with crops is when i was with my previous instructer he attemted to ride her with one, her reaction was so intense it was decided mutually not to persue using them. We did not when to stress her any further when she had just moved to new surroundings. Since then the need to train her to a crop has never arisen. I can touch her with one lunge etc but if i even pick one up its such a big deal that its avoided.
On hunts if someone uses a stick in front of her that causes a reaction as well.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Skip- Its ok im just very close to my family but i am an adult!!

MLS- Im not quite sure where i mentioned i dont need lessons im great.....but if i disagree with a method why would i stress my horse and me out if my previous trainer who taught me and my horse for nearly 3years felt training her to a crop was unneccesary then clealry he can see its just not neeeded.


I take lessons to improve my riding not to send my horse into spasmic fits. when the time comes i will train her to a crop on my own somewhere quiet, not in an hours lesson in the middle of a cross country course.

Stromy blues im not quite sure what your getting at! Im not saying those that use crops are bad i use them on my other 8horses its this specific horse i have a problem with using them on


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Skipsfirstspike said:


> Why oh why didn't I marry *rich*???


Lots of them are way too greedy anyway, so don't be upset!


----------



## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

You said you went to championships and all that. I was saying that going to a championship or something does not mean you are an amazing rider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chella (May 23, 2009)

Why is everyone attacking her for not wanting to use a crop. At the end of the day a "trainer" is just an employee who works for you. They are her horses and she gets the last word on how they are trained. Yes she may switch tainers. I don't think it matters how good a rider you are or what level you compete at you can always learn.


----------



## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

First of all, not one person has "attacked" her. Those who disagree with her (big difference between the two) have quite clearly stated their reasons as to 'why' -- perhaps if you go back and read the replies you can see both points illustrated.


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Chella said:


> Why is everyone attacking her for not wanting to use a crop. At the end of the day a "trainer" is just an employee who works for you. They are her horses and she gets the last word on how they are trained. Yes she may switch tainers. I don't think it matters how good a rider you are or what level you compete at you can always learn.


A trainer is a mentor, not an employee. You look to them for guidance and education in an area that you have little knowledge of. You pay this mentor in exchange for his or her time, because there are other things that this person could be doing....like riding their own horse.

You want an employee? Hire a personal assistant.


----------



## Chella (May 23, 2009)

You must be a trainer. LOL!


----------



## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

Its not LOL. It's the facts. A trainer is NOT an emploee. If anything YOU work for THEM. You have to fo everything they day. Kinda what you're paying them for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chella (May 23, 2009)

StormyBlues said:


> Its not LOL. It's the facts. A trainer is NOT an emploee. If anything YOU work for THEM. You have to fo everything they day. Kinda what you're paying them for.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 What???????????
I must live in a different world? It is my money my horses. Yes I am smart enough to hire trainers that are Great. Make no mistake they work for ME not the other way. Wake up.


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Chella said:


> What???????????
> I must live in a different world? It is my money my horses. Yes I am smart enough to hire trainers that are Great. Make no mistake they work for ME not the other way. Wake up.


Wow. Just wow. Do you have a trainer right now? I wonder what they would say if they knew you thought so little of them.


----------



## Chella (May 23, 2009)

I called my trainers GREAT remember. They are my employees. One is world class and is my mentor. One is young and carefree and a beautiful spirit that is great to exercise my horses she can't afford much so she has free access to my arenas/barn/trailers/trucks for use to show her horse. Does she care if she is my employee - yes - she would not want it any other way. I believe we are now very off the topic so goodnight. last post on this thread.


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Chella said:


> I called my trainers GREAT remember. They are my employees. One is world class and is my mentor. One is young and carefree and a beautiful spirit that is great to exercise my horses she can't afford much so she has free access to my arenas/barn/trailers/trucks for use to show her horse. Does she care if she is my employee - yes - she would not want it any other way. I believe we are now very off the topic so goodnight. last post on this thread.


I think it is VERY on topic....who listens to who? This girl wants to disregard a simple request from her trainer because she doesn't want to do it.

Do you boss your trainers around? No, its the opposite. _They _tell _you _what to do, take your money, and you have to sit back, do what they say and keep your mouth shut, or no more trainer for you.

I don't know of any real trainer that would argue your point of view.


----------



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

MaggiStar said:


> But if somebody tells me to use something on my horse for no reason i dont see why i should.


Carrying it and using it are two different things. Just because you are carrying it, doesn't mean you are using it. In fact, just hold it and forget you have it. 

I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill and it is interfering with your learning. Just relax, go with the flow...if she says carry something, it doesn't mean you have to use it, just simply carry it....go on out, and LEARN. At this point you are becoming your own road block and preventing yourself from learning the things you want to learn.


----------



## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

As a trainer, I could see how I could be seen as an employee, as I am providing a service for a fee. Also as a trainer, I see the people paying me as clients. As a barn manager, I have employees underneath me that rely on me for their paychecks just as I rely on them for their services. The difference between the two is that as a trainer, I'm paid for my experience and my advice. My employees in the barn are not paid for their advice, but their input is seen as very valuable and something to be considered as they are the legs that the barn stands on. My employees are to be treated with respect and encouraged to advance. My goal is always to work myself out of a job, whether I be the trainer "employee" or manger "employer" and "employee" to the owners of the barn, who know far less than I do which is why they are paying me.

If I were the OPs trainer, I don't think I would currently be making her carry a crop on a CC course. In fact, if her horse is so reactive that the use of a crop on a nearby horse is enough to trigger a reaction, then my job as a trainer is much further down the line, as the horse has some baggage to be dealt with since a sensitivity that strong has the potential to affect the safety of the rider.

As a rider, if I had a trainer, it would be because I respected them and their opinion. I have a rule when training, the moment that the horse shows a problem, that is the same moment that the problem becomes priority, its never avoided. 

If it were me and my horse, even if the horse doesn't need a crop, I would carry it if it were a request by someone I respected.

Like I mentioned, I don't think the crop is the problem here, its the fact that a crop causes the problem.


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

i think it would be very different if she was making you use it for no reason. i have been there before and it is not fun. but shes not asking you to use it, just to carry it, so just do it.


----------



## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

It's unfortunate that your trainer hasn't been able to teach you the proper use of the crop. You mentioned earlier that 99% of refusals are rider error. Have you stopped to consider that NOT using the crop could be the error? You also mentioned earlier that you were at your house so you could spend all day schooling that jump if you needed to. Have you considered that a crop could teach your horse something so that you wouldn't have to spend an entire day schooling that jump? A crop is not a last resort, it is a reinforcement if your horse doesn't listen to your leg. It's not a terrible thing to carry (or desensitize your horse to, esp if she gets upset if other people by her carry them). 

A trainer/rider relationship is a two way street. Sure, you're paying your trainer so technically they're your employee. But you're paying them to teach you, which means you need to trust their expertise. I always listen to whoever I ride with, b/c I only ride with people who I have a great deal of respect for and I'm certain they know more then I do. She may not know your horse better then you, but she knows HORSES better then you. If you don't understand why or agree, talk through it with them.


----------



## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I'd just like to say that while you may have been arguing, some of the comments on here were uncalled for. i think the macpac and co. said some comments that may have been funny but were pretty hurtful, even to people just reading.

To the OP: i agree that if you don't agree with the trainer about a certain topic, that a compromise should be reached. Have you ever tried sticking a crop in top boots, or half chaps (chappettes)?? It's out of your hand, so you aren't tempted to use it, but its still there in case you really need it.

I also agree that training is a two way street. They're not your employee, but they don't get to tell you everything about your horse. I once had a trainer that did nothing but shout, and within the first ten minutes I decided I wasn't coming back.

Oh and to the poster who asked how many jumps you could stay on without a saddle and bridle:

The count is five. In a row. And that's steering and adjusting stride. You're openminded about crops, but you've never ridden bareback?? That's without a saddle. And without a bridle is just a little bit further. Look up Guy Mclean. He can do it too.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I trained an eventer who I would not carry a crop on. If anyone had told me to I would have told them to sod off. he was a very unusual horse - When threatened or scared he turned fight, instead of flight. He almost broke a farriers leg kicking out when he dug him in the ribs to stop him fidgeting. I strongly believe that if I had ever smacked him with a crop the outcome would have been disastrous. He was also immensly talented, forward, and sensitive. If we were ever in a bad spot, a growl did the job of a crop, just as effectively. I don't think he ever stopped on cross country.

He is now taking a younger girl up through the grades successfully, and she doesn't carry a crop.

I don't event much anymore, so it isn't something I really think about. I don't carry a whip of any kind on any of my horses. I don't like using them, they are uncomfortable to hold. if I need to whack for some reason, I use the end of my reins.

Another point - many have said that a crop is simply for re-enforcement of the leg. But in my experience, a crp is far too short to be used as such - It is usually employed on the shoulder or the rump, which in no way equates to leg. If that were truly what it was for, you would all carry dressage whips CC as you can actually reach the barrel with them :]

There are some very good arguments for always carrying a crop CC - however it isn't necessary to vilify someone who chooses not to - it is a personal choice. I made it with the horse I mentioned earlier, and it worked out fine. I took him to a few clinics uncer olympic riders and was never told I needed to carry a crop.

In regards to listening to your instructor - that's a tricky issue. I do believe that an intructor is an employee - otherwise you wouldn't be able to fire them and find a new one. but I believe that it is a special kind of employee/employer relationship, as the former is hired for their advise and expertise. However, any isntructor who blindly proclaims their way as the be all and end all without taking my individual concerns into consideration would not be invited back. I think mistakes were made on both sides of this issue, and a discussion where both parties kept an open mind and listened to the others concerns may have avoided this issue all together.

***

And putting my mod hat on - Keep in mind our Conscientious Etiquette Policy, particularly this section:



> If your post is nasty, condescending, rude, etc., regardless of how subtle, and whether shrouded in the form of opinion or otherwise, it is subject to be removed and your access to the Horse Forum may be restricted.


Personal attacks will not be tolerated here.

So lets keep this thread friendly and on track!


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

^^why do you think a crop cant be used behind the leg ?


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Because crops are too short to reach the barrel unless you seriously compromise your position, which is not something I would do out on CC.


----------



## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

to properly use a crop you reach your hand back (without changing your position) and smack your horse behind your leg.


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

maybe if you use a bat !

i use a crop with out compramising my position...all you have to do is bridge your reins so you can let go with one hand, which becomes second nature with practice.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

If I do that without changing position, my crop barely reaches beneath my saddle blanket.


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

wild_spot said:


> Because crops are too short to reach the barrel unless you seriously compromise your position, which is not something I would do out on CC.


On Ice, who is somewhat long backed, I do have to change my position (I ride with my reins in one hand anyway) but on other horses I've been on who were more compact, it was never an issue.

I also remember reading somewhere that shoulder cues and behind the leg (where ever you choose to apply them) where something taught separate.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

What is a bat?

I ride one handed rgularly, and I would still have to compromise my position to reach the part of my boys barrel that my leg contacts - and he is only 15.2h.


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

a bat is a very short crop


----------



## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

a bat is a shorter crop. if you have to lean over to reach your horse's barrel it's wayyyy too short! my crop is 28 in long.


----------



## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

Same here. I tried a crop once, but without changing my position, it only ever landed on the saddle cloth, which is not particularly effective.

I also agree that it should be personal choice. I choose not to, not because my horses hate it (they don't care) but because I am one of those tempted to use it rather than changing position or using more leg. For me it would be the lazy man's way out, and I don't want to ride like that. I'm not saying it would be like that for everyone, but for me it is.


----------



## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

I think that because you are an adult and a capable rider, wether or not you use a crop should be up to you. Besides, if your horse isn't used to a crop, I think that is a bad time to start the training. Why not start in the arena if your instructor wants you and your horse to get used to it. Also, you shouldn't just always blindly follow someones instruction...nothing wrong with asking why and trying to educate yourself. Some instructors are of the belief that they tell you to do something, you just do it and you don't question it. I personally think that you learn more by asking questions. I ask my instructor questions all the time, although I have explained to her that I am not trying to question her methods, only trying to understand and learn as much as I can.
On a side note, IMO, an instructor is a teacher not an employee. Even if you pay big bucks to go to a big university, you can't fire your teacher, you can only quit the class.


----------



## aforred (May 12, 2010)

sandy2u1 said:


> On a side note, IMO, an instructor is a teacher not an employee. Even if you pay big bucks to go to a big university, you can't fire your teacher, you can only quit the class.


I agree. I use a trainer for the same reason I use a doctor: I need expertise. Sometimes, a trainer's or doctor's philosophy does not mesh with a student's or patient's. That only means that you might be happier with someone else. 

OP: You didn't mention that your horse does not like the crop and that your trainer is aware of that until quite a way into the discussion. That might have caused confusion for some people as to why you fought carrying a crop (myself included). Now that I know that little detail, I agree that I would not have carried the crop. 

However, that reaction to the crop is something I would be working on. Any time I find something that freaks my horses out, I try to get them over it, whether they would have any more contact with it or not. I want them to know they can trust me, and to be confident in new situations.


----------



## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

wow, I now have a headache after reading this thread. Wild_Spot, I am glad you called alert to the Etiquite Police.



And that was a great post Wild_Spot - and I completely agree. It depends on the horse, and it depends on the situation. 

Nelson was very much "freaked" out by the whip. I couldn't ride Dressage with a typical Dressage Whip in hand, because the moment he would see it, he would go around tense, stiff and very forward. 

So I went to a basic lengthed crop. Same result.

I have found that by carrying a "Pony Beater" aka "Bat" I have better results with his reaction. With this very short bat, I just have to tap his shoulder when needed, and I get the desired result.

There are times, when out on CC where I have caused Nelson to question the fence. I either look down at it or I hesitate with my body, creating Nelson to get behind my leg. As we know, we cannot have our horses behind us out on CC or we will get into trouble, so all I need to do to resassure Nelson that "yes, we need to do this fence even though through my body I said no" is to just tap him lightly on his shoulder.

I used to never carry a crop at all with him, because I'd end up with a negative response, but as I've learnt over time - "It is far better to have it and not need it. Than to not have it, and need it"

~~~

To the OP -

You have EVERY RIGHT to question your Coach and you have EVERY RIGHT to voice your opinion and say "yes" or "no" to them.

It is YOUR money. YOUR horse. YOUR time. YOUR choice. If at anytime your Coach says something that does not bode well with you, you do have every right to say "Hey, wait a minute here..."

You have EVERY RIGHT to ask questions and demand educated and thorough answers, and if you don't like what you recieve, you have every right to say "NO".

Don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. 

That doesn't mean you have to find a new coach. That doesn't mean you have to pack up and move on. Not at all! For you have every right to lay the cards on the table with your Coach and voice your concerns.


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

MaggiStar: Why don't you give it a try? Would you be open to trying it once? If you have never used a crop on this horse he neither has a good association nor a bad association with crops, so the act of you simply carrying one around for the ride will not hurt him, he should still be neutral towards crops afterwards. 

If your instructor has suggested carrying a crop, surely she has a reason. I suspect that even though she may be aware that you do not need to use one at the level you are training at currently, it is very likely you may need to use it in the future, therefore better to get used to riding with one now.

I wouldn't venture onto a cross country course without a crop. I have only ever had to use it twice in all the courses I have ridden and let me assure you, it saved me both times. There will come a day when you find you need one with you if you plan to continue in eventing. Don't worry, it doesn't make you a senseless horse abuser, just a careful and prepared cross country rider.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MIEventer said:


> That doesn't mean you have to find a new coach. That doesn't mean you have to pack up and move on. Not at all! For you have every right to lay the cards on the table with your Coach and voice your concerns.


Do you really think a great coach with lots of student will hold the stubborn student who doesn't want to follow instructions even with explanations? And I do NOT mean this thread, but in general. I bet he/she will find 20 reasons to say "no" (like no time, too many students, too many shows, etc.)

Asking is great - I think everyone who responded to this thread (or at least almost everyone :wink: ) don't argue with it. I ALWAYS ask questions and ask to explain why my trainer thinks this way or what this exercise will help me with (and I must admit 90% time SHE explains it to me even before I ask). But I still stand my opinion that one thing is asking, other thing is just being stubborn over practically nothing. Personally I do see the mistake of the trainer in this situation as well. If she was told horse is afraid of whip then she should of evaluate the horse, and if it's a case may include some desensitizing exercises on ground in the beginning of the lesson (or the owner of the horse could). 

As for trainer to be considered as employee you pay money... Well... It's the same as considering a teacher in private school as your employee, or the doctor you visit when you are sick.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Stormyblues Im not sure where i said o im amazing im using it as an example that my horse jumps without the need for a stick to qualify for them you have to have placed a set number of times all around the country so she placed all these times ridden just off the leg


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Thanks to all the last few posters who were not out to attack me for not using a crop!

We have a lesson today in a few hours and in a mutual decision we decided to go into the arena and try work on introducing the crop slowly just to see. I explained to her that even if the reaction was good I dont intend on getting reliant on my crop i might bring out once or twice but i have every intention on keeping my horse as responsive as she is.

I have no problem questioning and challenging my coaches at all if there telling me to do something im not pleased with unless it can be fully explained WHY I dont think they fully understand themselves. If a trainer is never questioned they can never improve and learn how to think outside the box.

I also agree that crops are ineffective without adjusting all balance and on a sensitive horse changing your balance is not something you want coming into a jump.


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

Excellent compromise. What I'm glad to see is more the fact that you intend to work on a problem as much as anything else. Keep in mind that there is a difference between questioning a trainer and outright defying one or, at least, becoming obstinate.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Thank you iridehorses. It did take a while to reach this compromise as she has a similar opinion to crops as some psters you should always have them out CC.

we agreed to disagree on this subject but to tryand have it so that should the situation arise we can deal with the scenario as it occurs


----------



## shanoona (Oct 29, 2009)

I was taught from the beginning that I should carry the crop always with me, both trainngs and trail rides. I have barely used it, but sometimes it was good to have one. Right now I've been riding my mare 4 almost a year and never had to use it. A week ago I was glad I had one. We went my mare and one other mare to their home. And my mare didn't want to go away from her to go home, even though she is always maing faces to the other mare. I was fighting with her for almost 10 minutes, we were diong circles, backward going, stopping, under saddle and from ground, with or without my voice,... I don't know what I would do without a crop. I am not saying I hit her to blood, but I used it three times and she went easily home.


----------



## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

When I started lessons in Germany we always carried a crop, didn't have to use it, just carried it. When I moved here I always brought it to my lesson but rarely carried it. Now, I think I might have one in the barn. 

Did you ask your instructor what her reasoning was behind carrying the crop? Sometimes just understanding WHY they are asking you to do something is enough to accept it. 

I used to put on under my leg flap. I didn't even carry it in my hand. I've never really been one to argue with my trainer though. 

I don't think it's fair that you are being called an immature child on this one though. I think you should be entitled to your opinions, you should be able to question things. It's how you learn. But always try to keep an open mind.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MaggiStar said:


> *We have a lesson today in a few hours and in a mutual decision we decided to go into the arena and try work on introducing the crop slowly just to see. *I explained to her that even if the reaction was good I dont intend on getting reliant on my crop i might bring out once or twice but i have every intention on keeping my horse as responsive as she is.


You should of just start with it first time she told you to keep it - explain the situation and decide (together) what's the best approach is. I'm glad you both came to agreement.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

MaggiStar said:


> MLS- The reason we know she has issues with crops is when i was with my previous instructer he attemted to ride her with one, her reaction was so intense it was decided mutually not to persue using them. We did not when to stress her any further when she had just moved to new surroundings. Since then the need to train her to a crop has never arisen. I can touch her with one lunge etc but if i even pick one up its such a big deal that its avoided.
> On hunts if someone uses a stick in front of her that causes a reaction as well.


What kind of reaction? What is a " big deal"? You are very round about with your answers.

I have owned my gelding his entire life. He has never had a crop or whip or barrel bat used on him. Yet if someone else riding goes to smuck their horse near his head, my gelding will react. Some horses are just wired that way.

Fine though - if you don't like the instructors advice - find another one.


----------



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

MaggiStar said:


> Sorry flitterbug we posted the same time. Its more of a rant really. I dont expect things to be forced onto me when i dont want to use them is the point.
> 
> 
> *Then, since you know so much more than your coach, simply quit taking lessons. That's easy....*
> ...


I have been training, teaching, showing for more than 35 years. I also require a crop when schooling/riding XC.

When I used to school with Jack LeGoff (in case you are too young to know him, he was a LONG time olympic coach for the eventing team), I clearly remember him saying;

*"A good rider ALWAYS carries a crop, and never uses it".*

I don't think you know more than he does, though I may be wrong :wink:


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Kitten Val -The first time she asked me was no discussion she basically just use it. Now on knowing how my horse reacts i think its carless instruction to expect me to take it in the middle of the field with out introducing it in a situation like that its just not safe.

MLS- A big deal is rearing, spinning, backing away and general freaking out and spooking. If she had wanted to use it in an arena first and assess the situation then ok BUT she wanted to witness this outside in open spaces. There is no logic in that.



If i believe in something with one of my own horses i should b aloud to persue this not be told your way is wrong this is the only correct way of doing things. I dont school/train my horses in a set way i do it in a way that each is comfortable with and i get the best performance out of. If the sutuation arose where i had to smack her i would lash her with the ends of my reins as wild-spot said. This hasn't arisen though yet. Many trainers are happy the way she [reforms as she is. In the words of one of them ' why create problems and issues when there is no need if the horse says no to something respect that'


----------



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Chella said:


> If you know your horse and he/she does not need it don't bring it. I have a very forward Morgan and If he even sees a crop he would freak. I have a very laid back AQHA who needs to see it. Stay true to your beliefs and trust your gut you are the expert of your horse not a "trainer". I commend you for knowing who you are and trying to stick to your beliefs! I well trained horse does not need a crop. or a bit. or a rein. Ask a Native American.


Absolutely no comment.


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

why didnt you tell her your horse had a crop issue from the get go if its such a big deal ??


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Because in the middle of posting I had to go answer the door so i just pressed send then forgot


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

no, i mean why didnt you tell the trainer in the first place ?


----------



## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Chella said:


> Why is everyone attacking her for not wanting to use a crop. At the end of the day a "trainer" is just an employee who works for you.
> 
> *NO! A trainer is a person who takes yours, and your horse's, lives into their hands when they teach. THEY are responsible for you. *
> 
> They are her horses and she gets the last word on how they are trained. Yes she may switch tainers. I don't think it matters how good a rider you are or what level you compete at you can always learn.


Exactly, you can always learn. It is the OP's turn to learn something from people here who are far more accomplished and experienced.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

gypsygirl said:


> why didnt you tell her your horse had a crop issue from the get go if its such a big deal ??


This is what I wondered too!

If the OP was having an adult conversation with the trainer I would guess the OP would have said, "Trainer person, Dobbin has had a bad reaction to me just carrying a crop in the past so I do not feel comfortable introducing it out in the open like this, can we skip the crop today and find another way to add it as I do realize that carrying one is important even if I do not use it."

With the posts the OP made throughout this thread this was never brought up. Just how the OP insists one is not needed and how the OP has ridden so many horses and never needed one, etc.


I too was taught that a crop is something you always carry as it is better to have it and not need it than to not have it if it is needed.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

My instucter knew all of this as before we even began working together we chatted about stuff like that. Which is why its a big thing to me that upon knowing this she still demanded i took one to the field instead of prehaps beginging in the arena.


I already stated that in the middle of posting the doorbell rang so i forgot to edit and out in about my horses issues.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

*OP has ridden so many horses and never needed one,-*alwaysbehind

Incorrect of you had read my posts you would have seen i use a crop and spurs on my other horses just not on this single horse. I have no issues against them at all but for this horse there just not used.
http://www.horseforum.com/#post637803#ixzz0oOM6qT00
​


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

you argument in the first few pages says nothing about your horse being afraid of the crop.  i think you were unhappy that no one agreed with you so you decided to throw that bit in.


----------



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MaggiStar said:


> My instucter knew all of this as before we even began working together we chatted about stuff like that. Which is why its a big thing to me that upon knowing this she still demanded i took one to the field instead of prehaps beginging in the arena.


Instructor could of just forget everything you told her. She's a busy person, it's just impossible to keep everything in head when you work (and talk) to lots of people on daily basis. My instructor forgets things too about my horse. She has way too much in her head to worry about. And I have no problem to repeat when it comes to that point. :wink:


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

No i had to answer the door and forgot until i read over it.
Its a simple error


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

I told her when she said take it. and her answer was that you cant go CC without it this is why i had issues. As that is a very general statement and very narrow minded you cant insist something be done by just saying "You cant go without"


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Um...

When I asked about you explaining to your instructor that your horse had crop issues I get "she knew"



> My instucter knew all of this as before we even began working together we chatted about stuff like that. Which is why its a big thing to me that upon knowing this she still demanded i took one to the field instead of prehaps beginging in the arena.


But when someone states that you have to accept that your instructor might not remember every little detail of your horse that you have discussed in the past (great point, kitten_val) you come back with that you actually discussed it right then and there.



> I told her when she said take it. and her answer was that you cant go CC without it this is why i had issues. As that is a very general statement and very narrow minded you cant insist something be done by just saying "You cant go without"


Maybe you just do not explain yourself well. But throughout the whole thread your story has changed as you have been questioned further so it sounds to me like you are just making it up as you go along in an attempt to make your instructor look bad.

I sure hope your instructor does not read this internet BB. :wink:


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

MaggiStar said:


> Kitten Val -The first time she asked me was no discussion she basically just use it. Now on knowing how my horse reacts i think its carless instruction to expect me to take it in the middle of the field with out introducing it in a situation like that its just not safe.
> 
> MLS- A big deal is rearing, spinning, backing away and general freaking out and spooking. If she had wanted to use it in an arena first and assess the situation then ok BUT she wanted to witness this outside in open spaces. There is no logic in that.
> 
> ...


You keep adding information as the questions are asked to you. I have to wonder if just to up the drama.

PLEASE use real words - not text speak!

Also - aren't your reins joined? Every eventer I know has regular english reins. Rather tough to lash your horse with joined reins . . .


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

mls said:


> Also - aren't your reins joined? Every eventer I know has regular english reins. Rather tough to lash your horse with joined reins . . .


Yes, English reins are buckled on the ends. They're generally not long enough to smack the horse with, the way you can with Western split reins.


----------



## upnover (Jan 17, 2008)

mls said:


> Also - aren't your reins joined? Every eventer I know has regular english reins. Rather tough to lash your horse with joined reins . . .



I too was wondering how to effectively use the bight of your buckled reins in lieu of a crop! and why new information just keeps popping up. but whatever. i think i'm through posting about this!


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

It is very easy to smack a horse wiht joined reins as you can get all different rein lenghts. You can shoulder smack easily with them no bother, I believe wild_spot mentioned she did the same on her eventer. you just flip them over the neck simply.

I reminded her there that she doesnt like them but we had an in dept discsussion before training began so she knew the reactions and the work of my previous instructer.


Why would i pay someone then attempt to make them llok bad? Who would i be making her look bad to.....Nobody knows where im from or who my insructer is.

Im not quite sure where i have been using text speak and if i have its because im doing several things at once so im typing quickly.



Why would I type a made up story and look for opinions on it....If i was 13 year old child yea whatever but im not im an adult if i honestly had that much time on my hands life would be great. I forgot to mention like two things its a simple mistake like if you rather i would retype the entire thing from beginining to end to verify i will.

Also tjis has been sorted wiht my instructer as i stated earlier im not quite sure what the final back lash is about.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

MaggiStar said:


> It is very easy to smack a horse wiht joined reins as you can get all different rein lenghts. You can shoulder smack easily with them no bother.


Oh, I guess that is where it got confusing.

Smacking on the shoulder does not say go forward in my world.

I thought you were using the reins as a driving aid when needed and I assume you know that with all your experience that hitting on the shoulder is not an affective driving aid.


----------



## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

For a sensitive horse any kind of smack says go foreward. If she backs off i just raise my voice works fine for me and she understands


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> I'll tell y'all what the point of this is; this child thinks she knows more than anyone else.
> 
> Youth is curable though, and about the time someone turns 25-30, they've usually had enough knock downs and immersion in real life to realize they're not the fountain of all wisdom, and just _maybe_ someone else has something to teach them. :wink:
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree!! If I was the instructor I would drop the OP the second time she tried to argue about it.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

MaggiStar said:


> It is very easy to smack a horse wiht joined reins as you can get all different rein lenghts. You can shoulder smack easily with them no bother, I believe wild_spot mentioned she did the same on her eventer. you just flip them over the neck simply.


Sorry - still can't buy it. If you are holding your reins correctly - it would be a lot of fussing to gather them and smack your horse when it decides to refuse a jump at fulll gallop.

For a horse to go forward, you typically touch them behind your leg. They go forward from the pressure. A smack on the shoulder would likely send them sideways.

My jumping instructor told me to never hit my horse in front of the girth for that very reason.


----------



## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

> It is very easy to smack a horse wiht joined reins as you can get all different rein lenghts. You can shoulder smack easily with them no bother, I believe wild_spot mentioned she did the same on her eventer. you just flip them over the neck simply.


I actually ride in long, plaited rope split reins, for many reasons, one of the last being that they can be used in lieu of a crop.

My eventer was never hit in any way when being ridden, as I described, I think he would have reacted very badly.

However it is quite easy to over under with buckled reins - if you have the coordination to carry a crop and somehow use it behind the leg without altering your position, then you have enough coordination to use your reins on the shoulder.


----------



## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

All trainers have different ideas about how to get to the promised land---gaining absolute control of the horses feet.

Crops, or spurs, are tools that when used correctly come in handy. My best cow horse looks at my feet every--and I mean every--time i get on to see if I am wearing spurs. If I am--I never have to use them. If I am not, well thats a horse of a different color.

Here's the real question--the first prerequisite to working with any trainer is that you are paying real money to learn from them. If you don't think they can teach you anything then put your money back in your wallet.


----------



## darkwillow (Apr 12, 2009)

I'm a little confused about alwaysbehind's arguments. I have short sporting reins and even I can get a decent flick on the shoulder if need be. Never usually is, but I can.
You also say that flicking the horse on the shoulder with the reins does not tell the horse, but you agree with other posters who say that using a crop on the shoulder is effective. I don't understand this.


----------



## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

mls said:


> Sorry - still can't buy it. If you are holding your reins correctly - it would be a lot of fussing to gather them and smack your horse when it decides to refuse a jump at fulll gallop.


I don't understand this. How hard is it to grab both reins and one hand and swat? 

And yes, I've ridden a horse at a gallop. The over under WS described is easy enough to do at any gait, with both types of reins. Although split reins would be more of a pop, its just a reinforcement.


----------



## StormyBlues (Dec 31, 2008)

But again, popping the shoulder can really be bad in this situation. A refusal where you would want to give them a smack with the crop will happen in the last three strides before a fence. So smacking with the reins takes to much time. AND you're really telling the horse to move their shoulder over when you hit them there. A smack behind the leg or on the haunch is more of a 'forward' smack. My trainer doesn't tollerate hitting the shoulders. It really does nothing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

hitting on the shoulder really depends on the horse. some horses it can give them the extra get it done & some not. just my experience bc with some horses i will use it on their shoulder.


----------



## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

When used correctly in a cross country situation, a crop is supposed to reinforce your leg aids and therefore should be used BEHIND the saddle. Taps on the shoulder may get the horses attention but will do nothing to help your leg aids (from what I have been taught, feel free to tell me otherwise). In addition, it is not adviseable to apply a crop on the shoulder as this will interfere with your rein contact, bad idea. It is easier to do with split reins whilst not interfering with the bit, they are designed for this type of maneuver. 

Does reaching behind the saddle with a crop to give a smack interefere with your balance? Some. With practice it shouldn't affect your balance at all. The point is that a sharp tap on the butt will interefere with your balance much less than your horse refusing two strides out from a downhill approach to a water jump when you will most likely fall. There will be a major interference with your balanced seat when you end up in the drink.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

All the OP said in the original post is that the instructor wanted her to CARRY the crop. She never said to use it but just carry it. The OP for some reason felt a moral obligation to argue about it with someone that knows enough more than her that the OP is willing to pay for instruction from her. The point to me is not rather the OP can effectively jump her horse without a crop but that she is incapable of taking that little bit of instruction. I suspect that the instructor thinks that she is not being effective without the whip and is trying to see if the horse is the one with the phobia or the rider. From the sounds of it I would bet the horse has less problem with the crop than the rider does.


----------



## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

darkwillow said:


> I'm a little confused about alwaysbehind's arguments. I have short sporting reins and even I can get a decent flick on the shoulder if need be. Never usually is, but I can.
> You also say that flicking the horse on the shoulder with the reins does not tell the horse, but you agree with other posters who say that using a crop on the shoulder is effective. I don't understand this.


Can you point out where I ever said it was OK to hit a horse on the shoulder with a crop?

In some horse disciplines you will be disqualified if you hit your horse on the shoulder with your crop. 

I said a driving aid is not given on the shoulder. 

A crop is used to back up your leg. Your leg is not used on the shoulder.


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

it's been requested that the thread be closed and it truly has run it's course.

Just to clear up the last post, as for AlwaysBehind's comment about hitting a horse on the shoulder, I've been following this thread and I don't recall her saying that. I'm sure it was a misunderstanding.


----------

