# Newbie with a request!



## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Hi there! I am looking at a 6 y/o AQHA mare tomorrow and am hoping to take a few pictures to use the conformation tutorial.  Until then, I do have one decent conformation shot from the owner. What do you think?

I'd ride trails, western pleasure and perhaps reining or barrels. Thoughts? 

PS the shot is not straight-on, so her bum isn't that far above her withers-- see the second image for reference! (she's backing in that shot)


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

I'd love to help you but honestly, I can't see nearly half the horse due to the shadows in the picture . It could be my computer and someone else can see something more than I can.

Good luck tomorrow


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## loveduffy (Dec 22, 2011)

she seams to be in nice shape to me but it is hard to judge from a picture


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Bah! Yeah, I had a feeling I'd have to take my own pictures, but thought it couldn't hurt just in case someone saw something I didn't.  Here's the video they posted with her ad:





I'll let you know how it goes and hopefully return with better pictures!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

VERY forehand heavy. She (he?) is quiet and all.. and that is great.. but she needs to be worked to get off her forehand. It will be difficult because she is built downhill. 

Also, for a horse with any amount of training, she should have not had to trot into the lope. She should have walked into the lope or loped off from a stand. She stops on her forehand. I did not see even a simple change of lead (couple of trot strides between changes) and no leg yielding at all. I love how quiet she is but I think her training should be further along, especially for $4k.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Elana, I agree with you about being heavy on the forehand. I have been away from this for too long, but that was the term I was looking for. Thank you! Question, though-- aren't most horses downhill? Or do you find her particularly downhill?

Also, I think the owner may have been bs'ing on craigslist, because I found her on another website for $3200.


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## BBBCrone (Jan 28, 2012)

existentialpony said:


> Also, I think the owner may have been bs'ing on craigslist, because I found her on another website for $3200.


Not sure what horses are going for in your area. Here in my area of Florida, excluding the warmblood craze that's going on here, I could probably get a similar horse for around $1,500.00. Depending on a lot of factors of course. Folks outside of the huge horse farms are pretty desperate and horses can stay on the market a LONG time.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

This is a $1,000 horse for that level training in this market for a 6 year old. NO, most horses are NOT down hill. I do not like a down hill horse because it is very hard for them to get off their forehand and collect. It is very hard for them to drop their butt and slide to a stop for reining. It is very hard for them to shift weight to the rear for flying changes of lead or even to transition up to the next gait or down to a slower gait and not fall apart. She falls apart when she is stopped from the lope. She has her nose tucked in and low in that little tiny circle they open with.. what is the point of that and what is that showing and what is the horse learning?

Beyond that she is being ridden in a long shanked bit and she is over the bit as a result. The rider is steering her like a truck instead of neck reining because the horse is so green. Horse should still be in a snaffle or a side pull. The result of the long shanked bit and the open hands.. is this horse that works from front to back and not from back to front and dodges her head unnaturally low. 

Nice enough horse.. love the disposition.. but this horse needs training with someone who will take the time to lay a foundation and get her working off her hind quarters. Give this horse a different rider who will ride her back to front and she might be pretty good.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

around here, she would be priced as she is, or maybe more depending on breeding. 

She is built downhill and heavy on forehand. You can see how stiff and jolting her canter is. Some of that is due to her having rather wideset front legs.

But, for trail riding I bet she'd be awesome! I like her and her temperment seemed really nice. I bet she can be improved a lot. Temperament is everything, so if you like her and she's willing to move out with a bit more umph when you try her out (cause you will need a willing horse to be able to ask her to step more under herslef and lift the forehand), then I'd give her serious consideration as a good mount.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

In my area she would be worth that. Well broke horses are hard to come by.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

I think her price is right and she looks very quiet and willing which means she CAN be trained correctly to use her body etc. I'd like to see her pastern angle up closer without all that hair because she looks like she drops her fetlocks low in the front.

But back to the horse, I bet she would slow down....jog and lope slower and smoother with the right rider. You can see in the vid the rider had a VERY active seat pushing this mare forward. Personally, I think she would make a cute WP horse! She breaks nice from the wither, doesn't need a lot of rein contact....even though the rider was too active with her hands.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Hey all!

So, an update (with pics below!). I went and saw Sugar today and I was truly wow'd by what a well-mannered horse she is, let alone a well-mannered 6 year old mare! The owners and I each worked her in the round pen and under saddle. First of all, she is a dream to work around; she will stand patient for days, when you lead her she is the kind of horse that stops when you stop, backs when you back, etc.

In the round pen, she was incredibly well behaved and never broke her gait unless asked to. I actually do things a little differently than the owner (I never let horses change direction with their hindquarters facing me) and when I asked her to do these things, I could tell she was reasoning out my commands and managed to turn towards me every time.

In the saddle, I have to say, she is not as forehand-heavy as she seemed in the video, but it's there. The owner mentioned that they sometimes work her in a snaffle to help, which was good to hear, but she still needs work on that hind end. That said, she has a be-a-u-tiful jog and trot, and collects when I ask but clearly I would need to work on her holding her collection. I think that will also come with consistent collected riding to build the necessary muscle. She never picked up the wrong lead at a canter and she's actually quite comfortable, but I didn't try flying changes on her. As for the walk-to-canter, I think that relates back to her needing to strengthen her hindquarters and work off of them. When I asked, she kind of slips a half-stride of a trot in between, but the owners claim she can do walk-to-canter (and given I haven't ridden in 8 months, it might have been my cues/seat).

What really impressed me was that in the arena [after having been ridden earlier that day], Sugar didn't break gait or give me any more than I was asking for when we were moving in the direction of the barn. And, when a spookyscary things quad roared right by the arena, she started to spook but immediately gave me her full attention when I asked for it. Lastly, I was really impressed with her willingness to listen to my cues, or reason them out if she didn't understand them even (ie. she didn't understand neck stretches touching her nose to my toe, at first). There is no question that she is intelligent and a quick-learner.

Now, the problems. Of course, she's downhill, needs more training ($$), and is at the top of my budget. I'm going back tomorrow to take her out on the trails and see how she does. Here are the promised pics-- any insights?? I'm struggling because she is the first prospect horse I have actually hopped up on, but I am so impressed with her demeanor and willingness and I know people are waiting to see her if I don't buy...

PS, I attached a picture of her front hooves. I don't think her fetlocks are dropped? But I am by no means practiced at spotting them. Thanks for listening to my rant, all!  All of my friends and family are in NY, and I'm in AZ, so it's been tough not having horse people who I am close with to go shopping with me.

[edit] If her toes look long, it's because she's due for shoes on Thursday.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Sounds like a great trail horse! I will say that my mare came to me very heavy on the forehand. With the right riding, it's pretty easy to get them lighter [easier than getting a high-headed horse to come down, in my honest opinion]. Just takes a little know-how and lots of trot transitions. =]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

She is loooong in the back, so if you ride her on trail do a LOT of hills trotting (and get her trotting FORWARD). Trot her UP the hills with your butt out of the saddle and a fairly loose rein. It will build her abdominal muscles and help her hold collections better (tho this horse will never collect really nicely.. she can still do better and be lighter on the forehand). 

She has a steep shoulder, and her point of shoulder is set low with the humerus (point of shoulder to elbow) being at a very low angle. This will not help her to collect or be light on the forehand. 

Her neck is base thick and set low.. another knock against her collecting well or being forehand light. 

She will need a LOT of work to get light on the forehand.. and you will likely need to learn how to help her attain this and train this because it is not a 60 day or 90 day or 120 day process but a LIFE LONG process with a horse built like this. 

As said previously, I like her disposition.. she needs better riding pushing her forward and a LOT LESS bit (I would be tempted to ride this horse in a side pull to help her raise her head some and to learn to move forward into the bridle). She does not need any Whoa on her.. she needs a bit more go and then a light touch to remind her to stay off her forehand while being pushed forward with leg. 

The second photo concerns me some.. she is pointing with her left front foot. * I hope it was just an awkward photo and not something she does regularly.* 

A horse that points a front foot.. or a horse that stands and swaps front feet pointing one, then the other, has front end pain.. so really observe her while she is just standing around (if you can). I see a horse that is this sound looking in the legs pointing and my first thought is navicular issues. 

I still would not part with the amount of money being asked (but it is YOUR money). IF you are going to pay that much for this horse, do spend the extra and get a PPE and have the vet look especially for navicular issues.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Elana said:


> The second photo concerns me some.. she is pointing with her left front foot. * I hope it was just an awkward photo and not something she does regularly.*
> 
> A horse that points a front foot.. or a horse that stands and swaps front feet pointing one, then the other, has front end pain.. so really observe her while she is just standing around (if you can). I see a horse that is this sound looking in the legs pointing and my first thought is navicular issues.
> 
> I still would not part with the amount of money being asked (but it is YOUR money). IF you are going to pay that much for this horse, do spend the extra and get a PPE and have the vet look especially for navicular issues.


Thanks for the critique, Elana! The owner was backing her in the second shot and didn't know that I was taking a picture... Is that what you are referring to, or something else?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Yes. That is the photo. Sounds like the horse was in motion so it is probably not an issue.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Elana, when you say she will "never collect well"... Are you saying this horse will never collect say, at the level of dressage collection, or that she won't be able to collect sufficiently for western pleasure if I want to show a year or two down the road? Thanks again for your help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

existentialpony said:


> Elana, when you say she will "never collect well"... Are you saying this horse will never collect say, at the level of dressage collection, or that she won't be able to collect sufficiently for western pleasure if I want to show a year or two down the road? Thanks again for your help.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She's not built a whole lot different from a lot of your average WP horses, and she certainly is able to stay off the forehand...but that will come from you and correct riding, lots of leg and a maintaining leg at the lope especially. She's got a nice set to her hock despite a little longer back and that WILL help her get under herself. The rider is not asking this mare to stay off the forehand at all. So I blame it more on the rider than the way the horse is built.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

She will probably do OK at WP. She is just going to require work and she always will. Does not mean don't do the work.. just be aware you will need to do the work. 

If you are looking for flying lead changes and so forth you are going to have to ride her forward and sit up straight with your heels under you (the rider in the videos is sitting a chair seat which does not help the horse). A horse must be off her forehand to do that sort of work.


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

Would love to hear what came out of this - did you buy the mare? I do like her, not sure about the angle of her front pastern/hooves but for trail and a little bit competition some conformational flaws can be overlooked while disposition is a key element, and she seems to have all going for her in this department. For my part of the country (Midwest) she is overprized, $2500 would be the upper limit. Since the seller seems to have her advertised for $4000 and somewhere else for $3200 he is probably willing to take offers, though.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Actually I went back again and became really attached to her, set up right of first refusal and scheduled a vet check and trailering... And yesterday they sold her without even calling me. I am so heartbroken about losing her.  I guess it's back to the drawing board.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## caljane (Feb 7, 2009)

existentialpony said:


> Actually I went back again and became really attached to her, set up right of first refusal and scheduled a vet check and trailering... And yesterday they sold her without even calling me. I am so heartbroken about losing her.  I guess it's back to the drawing board.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Really sorry about that :-( 
Horse buying and selling can be very frustrating. I sell a lot of weanlings for the ranch I work for. Sometimes I have one listed for month without a respond, then, all in a sudden, two or three serious buyers contact me and it's difficult to juggle through it without making the one or the other mad - or not having the foal sold at all at the end. So I do understand what the sellers went through, too, but I try to make it a point to call the other party at least for a heads up. I'd never sell one to somebody else without warning if the person had been already visiting a couple of times!
Just out of curiosity: Did you ever talk numbers (price) with the seller?


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

We did! They were firm on the asking price and I agreed to it. When they didn't give me the right of first refusal like we agreed, I offered (in desperation) above their asking price as a competitive bid and all the owner would say was "I am so sorry, you were so good together and I really wanted you to have her" because apparently her husband (who made the sale while she was out of town) refuses to tell the other buyer about the mistake. All they will do is offer to return her deposit if the buyer changes her mind, and let me buy the mare.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

^ sorry to hear that. But I am also a firm believer in "things happen for a reason". The right horse is out there and you will find it. Keep us posted on your search!!!


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