# Black/Cremello



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Smokey black, buckskin, brownskin, or palomino.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Palomino 50.00% -
Smoky Black 12.50% -​Silver Smoky Black 12.50% - 
Silver Buckskin 12.50% -
Buckskin 12.50% - ​


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

smrobs, no possibility of silver unless the horse is carrying silver. 

It would be more like a 25% chance of each smokey black, buckskin, brownskin, and palomino with the percentages changing depending on the genetics.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Yeah, I just put it in the color calculator and selected heterozygous for everything since we don't know the deeper genetics or even breed LOL.

I'll take your word on percentages though, I am a very long way from an expert on genetics .


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

lol  Genetics can be tricky. I don't like to guess beyond the basics without knowing more about the horses in question normally.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

When guessing the basics for a colour calculator, it is easy to just put hetero for everything. However, Silver is a dominant, and you should be able to see it on the horse, and therefore should assume it is not there if the horse doesn't display it. This of course can be wrong - it is not impossible for Silver to hide, much like cream can on black, but it is not nearly as common.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

What about grulla? I had always thought you could get grulla from that type of cross?


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## Strange (Jan 11, 2009)

Grulla involves the dun gene on a black horse.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Strange said:


> Grulla involves the dun gene on a black horse.


So how do you get a grulla? Dun X black? 

Is there any type of dilute that when crossed with black will give you a grulla?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Dun is the dilute responsible. A bay horse with one or two dun genes is a bay dun, or a dun. A black horse with one or two dun genes is a grulla.

ETA: Grulla is actually really easy to breed for if you are willing to test your mare and stallion. As long as neither carry agouti, one is homozygous black, and one homozygous dun, then you can guarantee a grulla foal.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Silver CAN and DOES hide on red-based horses. Therefore I personally do not consider it incorrect to whoever calculated based on possibility of silver as the cremello would be red-based and therefore not display any outside signs of silver. Silver affects and often restricts the black pigment but leaves the red be. This is why there is no such outward colour as a 'silver chestnut' but silver bay and silver black crop up fairly often.

It is the same with Agouti. It does not affect the red pigment, only restricts the black pigment, so a chestnut can have Agouti and not show any signs. Mum bred a chestnut stallion to a true-black mare and got a bay foal. It can and does happen.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes it can happen. But considering in the US outside of a very few breeds besides miniatures, the silver gene is *extremely *rare.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Not here it isn't! There's actually a lovely filly on the market at the moment that is a silver brown, and she is ConnemaraxWelsh 

Personally I have never met a silver horse that wasn't a mini but they are around, and at the moment I don't have contact with a huge amount of horses. My riding club and my circle of friends and that's it, because I'm not showing right now. So out of the loop that I don't even know when the next in-hand show is!


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