# Where to start. Advice needed. Beginner!



## daisie1 (Aug 9, 2017)

I have about 5 acres with many dead trees and invasive weeds. One grazing pasture is overgrown and has large (tree sized) branches that are covered by grass. The arena is overgrown with grass and clover. It used to be dirt or sand that was dragged in order to train the horses that once lived on the property. The hill behind the barn (manure hill) has gigantic garlic mustard, poke weed, honey suckle and poison ivy. The fence needs repaired. I would like to get goats so they can help clear the land. We cannot just mow the areas due to trees and steep hills. Any advice on where to start? I can only work on this during the evenings and on weekends. I also need a plan to purchase equipment not sure what types of equipment I need.


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## buggy (Aug 8, 2016)

6 goats per acre should clear your land out in a year. That is where I would start. If it is possible to corral the goats in smaller areas, they will get the area done quicker and you can start cleaning up the downed trees and branches while moving them on to the next area.
I would probably turn the goats loose in the arena too. 

You should definitely have a chainsaw, and a tractor (or ATV) big enough to drag the trees out. Or possibly a tractor with a bucket to remove the pieces of trees. 

I am not sure what kind of fence exists there already, but I think electrobraid and/or the electric tape is easiest to work with.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

You didn't say what your goals for the property are. But, If it were me, I'd first get the fence good and tight. Then, I'd divide the overgrown pasture with temporary fencing and turn some calves loose on it, one section at a time. Their grazing should expose many of the down branches to the point that you could saw them up or drag them out, Then, if cattle are not in your long range plan, sell them off. 

Goats are good weed eaters, but you have to contain them in the weed patch you want eaten. They are born to climb and jump. You'll need good, tight, goat proof fencing. Or put a couple of them in dog collars and picket lines. I've been told they like poison ivy, but don't know for sure. 

Don't know where you are, but in some places there are folks with herds of goats who, for a fee, will bring them to places that need clearing out. They pen them inside temporary fencing, and move it around until the job is done. 

Hope that helps some.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

_*WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!

*_Wow...things for me that would be a must..
I would be looking for a tractor with a bush hog attachment for mowing of those fields and it is able to take running over small tree growth up to a few inches thick. A bucket loader is so worth the extra price paid as it is a giant wheelbarrow, able to yank and pull out rotted fence posts, scrape and dig...just a few things you are facing. Used is fine, just make sure the PTO of tractor matches any implements {bush hog, rake, etc} match in class. You can purchase new with many companies doing 0% financing but it is more costly...however you also have a warranty. 
FYI...Kubota tractors are the _only_ tractors in the last few year models and currently made in the USA. All parts are American made...sounds like so-what till you break something and getting the part replaced takes months because of overseas shipping and manufacturing. Just be aware....

So, to me...
Mow the fields first to uncover the grass to come back. Weeds mowed allow grass to push out the weeds, fact! Since you are not putting animals to graze I would mow 5" high, you may need to start higher and work lower depending upon how thick the growth is.
Once the field is mowed, now you can see and safely bring in a truck to do some repairs...
You mention poison ivy, manure pile, weeds and some nasty plants possibly all being in one centralized area...I would concentrate on this area as a fence to keep the forage eating goats contained is needed first.
Goat are great for eating most anything green completely, just takes them some time to accomplish that but they will.
The riding ring needs to be turned, I would hire someone to disc it, drag the grass clumps and level the thing properly then you only need to maintain it once done. Will not be really expensive but to me you need to know what you are doing when disc-ing to make a nice riding surface emerge.
Next, I would be looking to replace fence post and wire. I now have a post hole digger and auger that works off my tractor. I'm not agile enough anymore to dig 100 post holes or more and still move. I would want my fence done and finished in a timely manner not dragged on for a month(s) time.
You can also pull to tighten fence so easily with a tractor...
I have livestock wire and top board for my perimeter and most of my pasture with 4- board fence nearest my house for aesthetic looks. Add strength, my horses are not ever going to challenge it.
Depending upon where those dead trees are you either can leave them in a field you dedicate to your goats to live in, they love to climb on them, or you can use your tractor to drag and pile them up so they can be burned...
The way it is written it sounds like a monumental job in front of you, but when you break it down and have the right equipment to assist you, it is really a manageable group of jobs to do.
Do not look at this as a whole, but break t down into smaller tasks and surprisingly it will get done and not take forever to accomplish.
For me...first would be that tractor to find with bucket-loader. A bush-hog, a rake and post-hole digger and 9" auger would be my choices to purchase with it. These you will use often...and will pay for themself over & over in your body saved wear & tear.
When looking for a tractor for a acreage of yours I would not buy anything smaller than 30 hp and would probably be looking rather in the 40's. I see no reason to buy larger as the tractor also gets bigger and space needed to work in...to big is just as much a issue as to small.

Best of luck with your property.
:runninghorse2:....


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

A note on goats -- goats should never be tied. Ever. They will tangle themselves constantly until they are attacked and killed by predators. 

Goats are easily confined by temporary electrified NETTING, which you should buy from Premier One, as their quality and customer service is head and shoulders above the rest. 

Otherwise, they are indeed hard to fence as they are natural born climbers and jumpers, plus they will crawl underneath. If your end goal is horses, you will spend a lot of extra money if you build permanent fencing for goats.

Goats, unlike cattle, must have a predator-proof shelter at night and a place to get out of the rain and wind -- they are small rather bony animals with a thin hair coat. They hate getting wet! 

Goats will clear vegetation better than anything else will; unlike cattle or sheep they have a strong preference for not-grass -- they are browsers not grazers. They will eat grass too, but tend to leave it for last. 

If you just want to mow grass, you are better off with sheep or cattle; sheep will be easier on your land, being so much lighter, but like goats they are very easily killed by predators (dogs are often the culprits). Electric netting will be safest for them too, but more to keep evil out than to keep them in.


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

I don't know what state your in. In Idaho, there is a forest restoration program. The state will come in and clean up for free. They cut down all the dead trees and undergrowth and pile it up for burning (when it is safe to do it) After that I would 2-4-D everything. Kill it all and burn it when it's safe to burn. Then replant with grass


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## daisie1 (Aug 9, 2017)

Thank you all!! Lots of great advice! I have an ATV and a lawn tractor. The ATV is the main vehicle to navigate my hills. It has a bucket that can be attached and a winch. I need a better lawn tractor as mine just cannot handle the terrain. Are there any particular places that you recommend finding used farm equipment?

I think goats and a brush cutter are the way to go. I have more weeds than grass, however, the poke weed is so large, I worry that it would kill the goats. Judging from my research, they can only handle smaller amounts at a time without becoming ill. I have seen mixed comments about this. Any advice here?

I just sent an e-mail out to our Department of Natural Resources to find out what type of assistance is available to me. Great idea!


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Places to find used tractors...
Craigslist, Agricultural Auctions, as at the local feed store, drive by looking at farmers fields, online classifieds, do a search from used tractors in ????? area and see what finds you.

As for goats... not much knowledge about them from me.
_What I do know is intact males stink,* period! *Beware!_
If you get goats with horns make sure you have proper size openings in the fence those horns not get stuck and they get trapped {livestock fence and horned goats *don't* work well}.
My neighbors have/had goats. We never had issues of goats climbing or jumping out but a few would put their heads through and get stuck in a opening till someone released them...silly goats.
Yup, my neighbors have the wrong fence for their pets.
Other than that....you need to ask others who are educated about the animals care and welfare.

Good luck.
:runninghorse2:....


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Intact males are a bad idea for any number of reasons. Avoid them. Although they really only stink during the breeding season, they seriously do then.

Goats don't get their horns stuck in electric netting, but they sure do in field fencing. Meat goat breeds are usually not disbudded, they have horns. Dairy goat breeds which need to be handled all the time are generally disbudded. Dairy goats with horns are usually the product of backyard breeders who don't know to disbud (it is a skill, and not for the fainthearted). There's a lot of what are called brush goats or scrub goats out there too. Not very good for meat or milk, but just as good as either for what you want. The cheapest goats will be wethers (gelded males) from dairy or brush goat parents. 

There's as much to know about goats as any other livestock.


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## daisie1 (Aug 9, 2017)

We were looking at pygmy goats, preferably wethers to weed. I was also interested in alpines when we are ready to get into 4-H and milking. 

I was thinking of eventually fencing the whole perimeter so that I can let the dogs roam. I thought that field fence was good. I have been reading about no climb goat fencing. Any experience with this? Should I place the electric netting inside the field fence? 

I am also interested in a guard donkey. Any opinions on a donkey with horses and goats?


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## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Personally I wouldn't buy a tractor for 5 acres. Around here you can rent a nice Kubota for 170 a day+40 for implements. Weekly rentals are equal to three day rentals. Some rental places don't care how many hours are used. I've ran excavators 24 hours a day for no extra charge. Share costs with a neighbor and you can both get a lot of bang for the buck. Make sure to get the insurance. If anything breaks just take it back. No maintenance to deal with!

I'm no expert on goats. I would think they would eat all the weeds, seeds and all. Then replant them. I know in wilderness areas we have to have certified weed free hay to pack in with horses. I start feeding this 3 days in advance to rid them of any weed seeds they have in them. Maybe someone else on the forum can let us know as I am curious if the goats would replant weeds too.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

If you eventually want Alpines, get Alpines now; it will take awhile to figure it all out, and you may as well start finding out who the reliable Alpine breeders are, how to judge a good dairy goat, etc. There is a learning curve. African Pygmies are a very small meat breed which is now mostly a pet and show goat. Nigerian Dwarfs are a dairy breed although they are typically too small to be easy or productive milkers. Not quite sure which one you meant. 

One more tip: if you are buying goats which you may keep for more than a year or two and even breed, then this is extremely important. Do not buy any stock which does not have a current lab certification as being free of CL (Caseous Lymphadinitis), CAE (Caprine Arthritic Encephalitis), and possibly, depending on your area, Johnes Disease (pronounced yo-ness). These are all incurable chronic diseases leading to death. It will ruin your herd before you even get it started. There is no vaccination and no cure for these, and they are highly contagious. If the seller blows you off in any way, do not buy those goats. Get that paper in your hand before you pass over any money. I learned the hard way, you don't have to.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Goat don't replant weeds, because they love little seedlings and eat them up.


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## daisie1 (Aug 9, 2017)

Thank you for all of the goat and machinery information! I am looking at either Nigerian dwarfs or African Pygmy goats. I have not had any luck finding Alpines in my area. I see mostly Nubian goats. I would not want to use these for milk because of the taste.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

daisie1 said:


> Thank you for all of the goat and machinery information! I am looking at either Nigerian dwarfs or African Pygmy goats. I have not had any luck finding Alpines in my area. I see mostly Nubian goats. I would not want to use these for milk because of the taste.


Nubians don't have bad tasting milk. What gave you that idea? 

Bad tasting goat milk is caused by one of these things: 

1. poor milk handling practices (99%). What you are tasting is bacterial contamination. 
2. goats are eating some kind of nasty tasting forage.
3. goat is sick.
4. goat is one of those oddball rare individuals whose milk never tastes right.

The only thing different about Nubian milk is that it has a high butterfat content compared to the northern breeds like Alpines, Saanens, Oberhaslis, Toggenburgs. It tastes richer and has more milk solids (you get more cheese per liquid gallon).

Another breed you might consider are Kinders. This is not a common or well-established breed but it is growing rapidly in popularity. They are a cross of Nubian and African Pygmy genetics -- small but not miniature, sturdy and stocky, give a lot of very high-butterfat milk for their size. That's my breed (although I'm presently out of the goat business). The KGBA has a website which may list breeders in your area. Be aware that few people have kids for sale right now, since goats mainly kid in the late winter/spring. Now is the time to get on a waiting list though.


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## daisie1 (Aug 9, 2017)

Thanks! Looking into Kinders right now. 

Some of the Milk from my farm share has a bitter taste. I was told that it was Nubian milk, so I was avoiding this breed. Maybe it is their forage. Although, I did speak with the farmer and he advised me that they bring the goats in a month before milking and only offer a high quality feed.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

daisie1 said:


> Thanks! Looking into Kinders right now.
> 
> Some of the Milk from my farm share has a bitter taste. I was told that it was Nubian milk, so I was avoiding this breed. Maybe it is their forage. Although, I did speak with the farmer and he advised me that they bring the goats in a month before milking and only offer a high quality feed.


Bitter is a spoiled taste. It's very easy to mishandle milk, and quite exacting to handle it right. This is why dairies are so highly regulated. The stuff is the perfect medium for bacteria, once it hits air.


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