# charge trainer for use facility



## ninneke (Apr 27, 2014)

We are located in mid-Michigan (2hrs from Detroit) and just finished building our horse property from scratch. We have a few medium sized pastures, 6 stalls and a 60x120 indoor. Next spring we will make trails in our woods. Everything is brand new, we built it for me to have my horses at home. But to help with the overhead costs I wouldn't mind having boarders.
The trainer I take lessons with now would like to work out of my barn (she doesn't have one of her own). She will bring at least one of her students with her to board here, and maybe two others. She will probably also bring one of her lesson horses (in summer she does pasture board elsewhere but they don't have an indoor). She would also like to have other students haul in their horse for lessons. She is fully insured and will put my barn on her list as well. 
However, she expects to use my facility for free "because she will bring clients to board with me". I am not comfortable with that because obviously boarding is most likely break even and hardly profitable. And she isn't telling me how many she will bring and when exactly so I am not even sure about that. 
But I don't know other horse people around here well enough to ask what they do, charge or not, and how much. So I would really appreciate hearing a few opinions on this: 
- I don't like the hauling in: I don't feel the remuneration will cover the cost of the wear and tear. Trainer says she pays $10 per lesson elsewhere but that seems rather low considering they will use water, electricity and the wear and tear.
- Do I ask a commission from my trainer, and if so, I assume only for the non-boarders (so only the lessons on her lesson horse)? How much is reasonable?
Thanks!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I don't know about the costs - but working for two different attorneys for 20 years, I can tell you you better have something in place protecting you from getting sued if someone gets hurt on your place. DO NOT 'rent' the space or facilities out as an individual. You would need to consult an attorney in your state, but you're probably going to want an LLC and conduct your business under that name, as well as a contract/waiver of liability.


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## ninneke (Apr 27, 2014)

Thanks! That's all been taken care of


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

That is a tough decision to make. It is true the trainer is bringing in boarders, which is money straight to you. 

The $10 use fee per horse trailered in sounds reasonable, and you wouldn't want to be over priced for the area. 

Multiply that times maybe 6 lessons week minimum x four weeks = $240/month or $2880/year. Not too shabby.

I doubt they would use that much water. Not sure about the "wear and tear" to the premises would be all that much to worry about either. Put in a gravel circular drive or a gravel parking area. 

I do think it would be reasonable to get a portion of the lesson horse fees too, maybe $5 per lesson. 

Another thing you could ask your instructor for free lessons for you. That would be a big savings also.

Finally, finding someone to take care of the horses while you are away on vacation would be a lot easier with horse people already there. 

So with the $240 +/- month and maybe another $100 or so from the lesson horse, plus the three or four boarders and free riding lessons you should have quite a significant savings on the cost of keeping your own horses. Plus someone to take care of the horses when you are away.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Your trainer should be paying you to use your facilities. She is basically using your space and resources to run her business. She wouldn't open a storefront and expect to get free rent, right? Most barns around me that have a trainer come in have one ring fee for the boarders and a higher ring fee for haul-ins.

Before taking on boarders, you need to ensure your boarding fee is comparable to other facilities like yours, that you can make a profit off of it, and that you can handle the labor. Will you be taking care of the boarder's horses, or the trainer or someone else? If it's the trainer, will she expect compensation? Will you have to hire outside help? If it's you doing the work, will you be doing it 7 days a week? What about if you go on vacation?

Get EVERYTHING in writing. Make sure the boarders all have boarding agreements with you and liability waivers. Make sure your insurance is correct as well.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Basically she should rent however many stalls she thinks she'll be using from you and then she collects the board & training from the owner of the horse. So, if board is normally $350/mo (around here that's reasonable for stall + pasture & use of facilities), and she thinks she'd need 3 stalls, she pays you $1050/month and she then charges her full board/training people $650/mo or whatever she charges for the training and pockets that amount. I agree that $10 for haul in is a decent fee, and don't disagree with $5/lesson on the lesson horse. Or you can charge her a flat rate of $1500/mo and she gets 3 stalls and use of all facilities and it's up to her to figure out how to make her money from the day use & lesson horse. I have never liked the per horse thing because if you're not there to keep her honest, who says she will be? And free lessons (pre-scheduled, not just whenever you feel like showing up) will help make up for the inconvenience, liability, loss of use of the facilities for you.

She needs to provide the labor for picking/feeding, etc. You need to be sure you have your property posted and a really good release of liability signed by EACH person (including the trainer) and do a new one each year. You also need to be sure you are carrying proper insurance for liability, care, custody & control, and of course the facilities and equipment.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Basically she should rent however many stalls she thinks she'll be using from you and then she collects the board & training from the owner of the horse. So, if board is normally $350/mo (around here that's reasonable for stall + pasture & use of facilities), and she thinks she'd need 3 stalls, she pays you $1050/month and she then charges her full board/training people $650/mo or whatever she charges for the training and pockets that amount. I agree that $10 for haul in is a decent fee, and don't disagree with $5/lesson on the lesson horse. Or you can charge her a flat rate of $1500/mo and she gets 3 stalls and use of all facilities and it's up to her to figure out how to make her money from the day use & lesson horse. I have never liked the per horse thing because if you're not there to keep her honest, who says she will be? And free lessons (pre-scheduled, not just whenever you feel like showing up) will help make up for the inconvenience, liability, loss of use of the facilities for you.


Completely agree, love this idea. It basically turns into the trainer renting stalls from you - which she can then choose to fill however she wishes. I've paid anywhere from $5 - $20 haul in rates. I would say $10 is more than reasonable & about the norm. Also agree that $5/lesson for an arena fee isn't unreasonable either. You would collect this off any lessons given on your property - be it boarders or her lesson horse. Free lessons for you isn't a bad idea either. You're not really destroying her business by adding fees (because she'll charge them to her lesson students/boarders) & she'll be making money if she charges her boarders anything extra (training rates, increased board price etc). She's basically making money either way without really having to spend much out of pocket.

Don't get yourself into the endless black hole of offering discounts for things (just as a warning - I know you haven't mentioned anything about doing this). That just creates more headaches than solves problems. Create your fees up front & if she doesn't like them - bye. You could probably easily fill your boarder spots up on your own, most boarders are more than okay paying a $5 arena fee to have their trainer come out.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

I'd say charge her a fixed amount you'll feel comfortable with in the worst-case scenario (no boarders, etc.), and set up a discount for her based on the business she brings in for you. That way you have at least the proverbial sparrow in the hand, and she's got an incentive to follow through on her promises. Best yet, if she does follow through, she'll get exactly the deal she wanted.


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## Kato (Apr 20, 2011)

Most of the barns around here charge the trainers a flat rate to train with all board going to the barn owner. I want to say around $600/month. As well as they must have their own insurance. A lot of barns here do not allow trailer-ins, but those that do are usually rather hefty around $15-20.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Flat fee to be determined by your expenses and liabilities paid monthly by the trainer whether she has 1 boarder or 3 stalls full.
Don't forget that you as the property owner are responsible for clearing and maintaining road conditions on your land to be accessible for her students to come take a lesson on the horse stabled their, and for those to trailer in that own and board elsewhere...
The more students she has the more hours she will take over your indoor that now needs grading, cleaning, lighting and possibly heating...
Once you set a price...it is for a specified amount of time as in calendar months, a binding legal agreement so make sure you really want this to occur which is going to limit your using your arena built for your pleasure.
Someone also needs to provide needed "extras" of equipment such as jumps, barrels or poles or what-have-you. 
The more use those things see the sooner they need replacing when broken damaged or shabby looking.
Make sure you also have restroom facilities that are winter-proof or a line traipsing in and out of your house or people will be using your stalls... :-x

There is a lot to think about...
For me, if I had a nice new facility _*built for me*_...
I don't think I would be wanting to share it, watch it be worn and torn by others who "rent" and have a very different attitude since it isn't theirs...
_I would keep the place for you...at least this year._
Let your trainer come to you but she as she free-lances can take her students where she teaches them now in winter..
Don't feel pressured and if you do do this... make sure it is a business arrangement of she pays you and abides by her contract and you pay her for her services so nothing is taken for granted...hard cash put in your hand and given back as appropriate.
If you do trailer-ins....I would not hesitate to charge $20 per head per lesson and there are no free-ride times...arrives in a trailer it pays and pays *per person* riding. I've seen one trainer trailer in 1 horse, then teach 4 lessons during the day. It was 1 horse so only one horse fee collected, not horse and *rider,* equal emphasis on horse AND riders
Same as that lesson horse stabled their...each rider so she is also not closing down your riding time.
Be careful of how you word and allow a contract to state use of your facility as quickly you can be moved out of the way and she take over a small exclusive environment leaving you very unhappy.
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

*"However, she expects to use my facility for free "because she will bring clients to board with me". I am not comfortable with that because obviously boarding is most likely break even and hardly profitable. And she isn't telling me how many she will bring and when exactly so I am not even sure about that. "*

This is the part that would make me nervous. After all, you aren't some big commercial stable looking for boarders all of the time, you only have 6 stalls, some for your own horses and if you think about it, do you really want a bunch of strangers, strange horses and tons of activity going on where you live? Plus the wear and tear on your brand new property.

One or two horses maybe but definitely not totally free use of your property. It almost sounds like she wants to take your stable over and make it hers! 

I paid my former BOs $5.00 per lesson (for outsiders) using my own horses which were also boarded there. I didn't pay anything to them when I trained for people who already boarded there and I also didn't pay when giving lessons to the boarders on their own horses. The boarders liked having someone to come to for help when needed. Allowing outside horses to be trailered in creates a real mess-liability, damage and angry boarders who now don't have a place to ride because the arenas are all tied up! Even at only $5.00, they made many thousands of dollars off of me over the years. Yes, I also brought in many boarders for them but it was a fairly large, commercial stable. I always made sure that the regular boarders knew that I had no problem with them using the arenas during one of my lessons but this can become an issue if you have someone training there that doesn't want to share. I always figured that the boarders (including myself) were the bread & butter of the business, training and lesson money was hit or miss for the BOs so the regular boarders should have first dibs on the amenities.

If you let her "contract" out a couple of stalls, make sure that she is the one responsible for paying you directly for them-you don't know these people she is training for, believe me they come and go overnight. You will need a contract for the boarders but also one for the trainer.

Don't let friendship stop you from making it clear what you will allow and what you expect. Ultimately no, she should not be able to do any of this completely free. There is a huge difference between taking in a few extra horses for some extra money versus allowing a full blown training operation on site. This is _your_ property to enjoy, approach this carefully and with a lot of thought.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

If I were you I would get the place all set up, advertise for as many boarders as you want & see how that goes. It sounds like you won't need help finding boarders.
A trainer could easily take over the place & regular boarders may not like that. Paying boarders should have top priority over lesson people.
Haul-ins have other risks. They can bring in illness, thieves, screaming kids & all kinds of other things you won't like.

I allow outside trainers to work with boarders & don't charge because a regular boarder can do as they wish with their own horse. But...they don't get exclusive use of the arena during their lessons.

If your trainer wants a stall/s for winter then she is essentially a boarder & pays you for it. If you want a lesson from her you pay for that. Keep it simple.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

The cost of insurance would be more than that! If she wants to board, then she needs to pay board. her theory of bringing you boarders is not reasonable. 
If she does move in, any person keeping a horse there, must pay board directly to you, and she needs to have proof of liability coverage for the lessons . 
I would be leary of people bringing in horses for lessons, trailering in, that liability could end up on you . If she has a horse for lessons she needs to board it. 
You need to look up the liability laws in your state. To get prices, call stables and ask what boarding cost is , and what it covers.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I just would like to say, lucky you! New arena, barn, the whole nine yards, I am so jealous!


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## gnpenning (Aug 19, 2017)

When I bought my place it came with 2 "trainer's". The PO let them do what they wanted while they sat around and got drunk. I sat down with each to see what they had been doing and what their future plans were. Also let them ask questions and give suggestions. 

Both had free stalls for themselves. One had 2 horses in for training the other 3. One was sub renting his stall and pocketing the money. Yeah that ended. 
Neither had any insurance. They didn't have enough business to pay for it. Btw require them to name you as a additional insured on the policy. 

2 horses brought in by your trainer at $ 300 a month totals $600. Then you give your trainer a $300 a month stall. You buy hay, shavings, electrical, hauling off waste, labor to clean stalls. Plus your insurance, snow plowing, tractor to work the arena, maintenance and fuel for It, hoses, buckets, etc. Damage to roads, stalls, and arena. Not much if any profit. 

Don't forget the boarder knocking on your door at 10 to ask some silly question they feel needs to be answered now. . Or the one that want to show their bar friends their horse at 2 am. Or your walking there colic horse because they don't have time and the horse has a history of intestinal issues and you get to do it regularly. Winter is the when you'll enjoy it the most. Trying to collect a past due bill is not much fun. 

What other business can you have someone supply you with a building and take care of the financial and every day work for free?? While allowing you to make a living with no real financial risk ?

Right now you have the newest and nicest place. When that changes your trainer may move on to the next place. 
I've met some great trainer's and would have loved to had them in my barn. Others not so much. 

Yeah I've seen all the above and much more. I like it better keeping my place private and having friends over. Every year they sign a new release and have no issue. 

If you decide to do be all business with every little thing you do. The courts will if you ever have the misfortune to be drug in. Or if you get an IRS audit. Kinda tough explaining how some things slide through the cracks and expect not to lose. Set business hours and stick to it. 

I know I painted a rough picture. Horses will be come a job and it will become hard to have a peaceful ride at your dream place . Good luck with what ever you choose to do.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree she should pay for the use of your arena plus pay for the keep of her lesson horse if amd when she brings it. 

What you charge is up to you. The fact that she is bringing in liveries is neither here nor there - you could probably get them through advertising especially if you have an indoor arena. 

One thing I would say, if she or anyone else has booked the arena for lessons then no one else should be using it at the same time.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I agree with DreamCatcher Arabians. If this is something you are really interested in doing have your trainer rent the entire barn - and take care of paying someone to clean the stalls and feed. She will also be responsible for finding and unloading hay etc.

We live near a new facility - my daughter works there cleaning stalls. This place is about 6 years old and it would boggle your mind to see the damage people and horses have done to the place in this short amount of time. The owner/trainer of this facility does a fantastic job keeping her arena's (1 outdoor and 1 indoor) up to par with truckloads of AgLime, Sand and a dust inhibitor. And she also has outdoor stalls as well as pastures for her boarders and the lesson horses. She is very honest about the cost of maintaining her facility and keeping the stalls clean and the stall floors as odor free as possible. As many people that board have said she barely breaks even on board and her money comes from training and lessons. She struggles at times finding good quality hay, bedding at a reasonable price and workers that will show up on time.

There is so much more to owning a facility and keeping it up than most people realize - I think your trainer is trying to take advantage of you and your facility and I would enter any agreement hesitantly. Maybe start with a 6 month contract for trainer and boarders and extend it if things work out. 

And realize that if your relationship with this trainer goes south - this entire situation could become very unpleasant.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

The trainer should absolutely be paying you to use your facilities. 

I used to take lessons at a barn where I believe the trainer paid $10 or $15 per lesson to use that barn. You could call around to various barns and see if any BO/BM would be willing to tell you what the going rate is.

Sometimes I would haul my horse to the barn to take a lesson on my horse, instead of one of the instructor's horses. When I did that .... I'm trying to remember .... I think I paid $20 or $25 for an "outside horse fee". I paid that _in addition_ to what I was paying the trainer for a lesson, which is why I didn't haul my horse in every time! And the trainer still paid their usual $10-$15 fee to the barn.

All these things should be SEPARATE from a boarder. It's one thing if you have a boarder who is taking lessons (obviously they don't pay an outside horse fee) but it's totally different if you have a non-boarder coming in for lessons with their horse. So the trainer trying to say she is bringing you boarders really has nothing to do with it. She still needs to pay to use your facility. 

It's not a boarding barn, but sometimes I haul to an indoor nearby to work my horses in the winter. I pay $10 a horse to use their arena. Pretty much just for the electricity .... and sometimes I don't even turn on the lights! (If it's sunny out, I don't need to.)


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