# He is becoming dangerous and I don't know what to do.



## redbarron1010 (Mar 11, 2017)

Wow, this horse sounds like a project for Clinton Anderson! I wish I could help but too far out of my league. But I was just curious, what is floating? Is that trailering? My horse was nuts about not trailering, and I had to walk him home from a parade once. he was a big draft too. But we go a big open stock trailer and it was a step up and he walked right in. He just hated the ramp. Your horse's other problems sound really severe. I look forward to reading others advice. bless you for sticking with this horse. BTW, how old is he?


----------



## elltana (Jun 12, 2017)

redbarron1010 said:


> Wow, this horse sounds like a project for Clinton Anderson! I wish I could help but too far out of my league. But I was just curious, what is floating? Is that trailering? My horse was nuts about not trailering, and I had to walk him home from a parade once. he was a big draft too. But we go a big open stock trailer and it was a step up and he walked right in. He just hated the ramp. Your horse's other problems sound really severe. I look forward to reading others advice. bless you for sticking with this horse. BTW, how old is he?


Floating is the same as tailoring I presume. Thats what they call it here, or at least what I call it. We did try other floats but that didn't work. He is 10, but a very green 10 year old!
Thanks for your reply, he is out of my league too! At least he is teaching me a lot.


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I read part, then the rest of your post elltana...

You're not going to want to hear my opinion...but here it is..

What you have is a horse who is challenging your respect.
He has "0" respect for you.
He challenges you, you cave and back down...
Get tough, get in his face and stop babying him..

He is 10 years old and "green" but has been to many places and done many things doesn't go together so well in my mind.
You need to hire a trainer, a true horse trainer who will take the bad and channel it to become good.
Someone who will not tolerate disobedience like you describe...
If that means getting after this horse..._then so be it._
You either get after him and seriously work the issues or you are on a crash course of a horse you fear...you actually already do fear him, he knows it and is taking full advantage.
Getting after the animal is also not being physically abusive...just working the mind then the body with a different approach than what you are using.

I _don't _believe in abuse, but I_ do_ believe in instant punishment fitting the crime and biting is a severe issue that can escalate to dangerous and deadly in nature quickly.
I tend to think your weighing 130 pounds versus this animals 1300 pounds,.. what ever you are thinking a punishing blow is a annoyance to the horse...:neutral:
You _*need* _some professional help to work the horse and to work you so you know how to work the horse and not be taken advantage of...
A true horse trainer not a riding instructor...there is a large difference between the two in situations like this.
Right now... NO RESPECT for you is your #1 issue you need to deal with.

If that was my horse and he didn't want to walk nicely forward out of his paddock, he would of walked backward the entire way to the barn and at a darn fast pace too.... :x

_*My horses do not tell me,* *I tell them. 
*_My horses respect me, run to meet me to get scratches and attention. 
They follow me all over their pasture field and try to follow me out the gate when I leave...
They respect me and my leadership._

Find a "real" trainer to work the horse with his issues..._
Then use that trainer to work with you, to teach you how to retain and hold that horses respect.
How to reach that horse so a problem never escalates to the size and breadth of what you now have...you have disrespect in everything you do with this horse..._
Gain the respect of this animal and see where it leads you as a team.
:runninghorse2:....
jmo...
_


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Agree with @Horseluvinguy...

I'm usually the last person to use the word "respect," because of how people sometimes use it. However, this horse does not have respect for you. Unfortunately you are putting this horse's life at risk by moving toward creating a dangerous horse. 

I'm afraid he is to the point where he needs someone to handle him who can do whatever it takes to get his behavior under control. It is a very aggressive act to cut off your path and bite you. That should never have happened more than twice. I say twice, because sometimes the first thing you try is not enough to convince the horse. But if it isn't, then this behavior is dangerous enough that you must at that point make the horse afraid that you are going to KILL him if he ever tries it again. That does not mean injuring the horse, but it does mean something loud, scary and with enough mental or physical pain to make him believe you could really hurt him badly. If you have to get suddenly extremely loud and big and twirl a rope with a big knot on the end that hits him in the nose, then you need to do it. For this type of behavior, his eyes should be bugging out as he tries to get out of your way. 

His size and your size should have nothing to do with it. A tiny child that is assertive can make a horse believe that they are in control. Humans have tools - many possibilities we can use to get a horse to respect us. When you talk about "beating down" a horse, it sounds like you're imagining a fight with a horse. People can't fight horses, they are simply too big. We have to control them psychologically, and by moving their feet and sometimes (if they are out of control) making them believe we could hurt them if we wanted to. If that means banging on a metal pan when he comes at you, or blowing a leaf blower in his face, so be it. Humans are scarier than horses.

Right now you are convincing the horse that humans are weak and can be pushed around. In that way, "respect" is a term I will use, meaning that the horse must respect that a human is a predator with teeth and claws so he cannot bite you or kick you or otherwise intentionally cause you harm.

If you truly believe that the bucking and rearing issues are due to saddle fit, then you shouldn't be riding him until you have a saddle that fits. I'm not sure how you can decide if a saddle is causing "discomfort" vs "pain," but _if _somehow your perspective of this horse's behavior is a little exaggerated (probably not, if a vet refused to deal with him), it still is a very bad idea to give the horse negative connotations about being ridden. In fact, something that supposedly minor could have set off the whole cascade of him not wanting to leave his pen or go on a float. His pain could be serious enough that your ignoring it has caused him to feel the need to "shout" at you that he is not willing to put up with it anymore. 

Your idea of "breaking his spirit" is one that is leading you astray. You don't give an "angry and loud" horse breaks. A horse cannot insist that you do something. A horse will never respect or work for someone that they can push around or intimidate on a regular basis.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Well, he does what he does because it works for him, and what he gets is to be left alone. Someone mentioned C. Anderson - I agree, he'd have a "method" for this. The thing with Anderson is that he only gets aggressive with the horse when his safety is at stake. Otherwise, he finds the horse's currency and works with that. He wants to be left alone and in peace? Take his peace away and make him sweat. The trick is to do it in a way that you can detect cooperation and give him what he wants right away, so he actually learns to connect the two. If you are not impressive enough, get some help. Get an umbrella. Get a cape. Get an air horn. Channel your inner blowfish to get his attention, and then take his leisure time away. If he's spoiling for a fight, don't give him one - just come in with shock and awe, even if it's just bluster and you never touch him physically. If he learns you can be a scary mofo and have the power to take his oxygen privileges away, he won't challenge you (as often) anymore. Once you got a cooperative horse, work on the rest.


----------



## newtrailriders (Apr 2, 2017)

Hey - I can relate to what you're going through. I was recently in a similar situation. Although I got good advice and heeded it before the situation got quite as out of hand as yours, I'm pretty sure my mare and I were well on our way to finding ourselves in the same position you're in.

The problem with all the advice to be firmer, teach them respect etc. is that we don't know how to do that. I tried all the advice I got online and even went and took lessons, but I'm just not to that point as a horseperson and I had to admit that to myself. There's only so much people can explain to us through words and the rest has to be shown 1-on-1.

My mare is now in the pasture and I am going to completely avoid doing anything with her that will cause her to challenge me in any way until I learn better skills. There are things we can do together, still, and I will continue to do those. When she comes in to be fed every day she has to let me put her halter on. She has to stand tied to eat, and lift her feet and yield her hindquarters when I want her to move. Those are the things I feel comfortable with her on. I know not to let her walk all over me or hit me with her head etc. 

We actually made some progress but I'm in a hurry to get riding so I'm getting a gentle, old, very well-broke horse without any bad habits and I'm just going to stick with him and let someone more experienced work with my mare. I will only ride her with the supervision of a trainer until I get a handle on her. That may take years. 

I have learned that every time I have a bad experience with my mare, her poor behavior gets reinforced. I think I've come close to ruining her and I'm hoping and praying I'll be able to ride her one day when I'm more experienced and she's had more time under the saddle with more experienced people than me.

I have been very surprised to learn what a long process it is to become a good horseperson.


----------



## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

What you describe presents a very unusual and difficult situation. Without actually interacting with this particular horse, I hesitate to give any direct advice. However, I will share some general ideas for you to consider.

First, you must control the attempted biting. Biting is generally more dangerous than kicking. If the horse is merely threatening, stern looks, loud rebukes, or threatened responses may be enough to counteract the horse’s actions. If the horse’s actions are more aggressive, a more aggressive response may be necessary. The actual form of this response may vary, but you must give the horse the impression you are dominant and will not put up with this behavior even if you have to “kill” it.

But the best approach with a horse that is not afraid of confrontation is to avoid confrontation. Try not to get into “must do” situations – especially one where time will be a factor. Rather than confronting the horse directly, try persuasion. This requires paying close attention to the horse to determine his likes as well as his dislikes. I’m not just talking about what appears obvious. Subtleties often reveal knowledge that may even contradict what appears obvious. For example: in humans, aggressive behavior is often the result of insecurities. The same can be true with animals. Developing a relationship of trust and security provides the horse an alternative way of responding to situations.

Rather than simply telling a horse he cannot do something, try to present an alternative that is acceptable to both you and him. When you say “You can’t do this”, add “but you can do this.” This, as opposed to: “You MUST do this.”

Perhaps you have heard of Frederic Pignon who is well known for working with several stallions in freedom at one time. In the book “Gallop to Freedom”, he shares what the horse Templado taught him. He states: “...here I was presented with a horse that did not respond to anything I asked of him. It was as if all my considerable experience was for nothing....We [he and his wife, Magali] had to question and set aside our previous knowledge and try again....We stopped making demands on him but every day we spent time watching him, trying to understand him, and trying to make contact.” He goes on to say: “Once I accepted the idea that anything suggesting domination by me produced in him an ungovernable fury, and made it clear that I did not even want to try, I began to make progress....As soon as I saw the slightest ***** in his ‘armor’ I tried to take advantage of it.” As Frederic and Magali began to understand Templado better and interact with him in a way that was acceptable to all involved, things changed dramatically. After Templado died, Frederic says he truly came to understand how much Templado had helped him in performances with Templado and three other stallions.

I hope you can discover the key to unlock such a relationship with your horse.


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Also, OP, I was assuming your horse is not a stallion. @TXhorseman has good advice to consider for any horse, but especially with a stallion you must avoid getting into confrontation or challenging them or they may decide to actually fight you.


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

All of the above very good advice, but there is a fine line to walk with a dominant horse. I do not know what your experience level is, but this horse was put into your life for a reason. It may be to teach you understanding or it may be to teach you that there are some things you shouldn't do. 

First you need to separate some thoughts. 

One is, any acts of aggression, such as biting, are to be met with an instant and big response by you. Carry a whip, but if he even tries to bite you are to immediately scream bloody murder and rush him swinging that whip hard! Treat his aggressive behavior strongly and immediately...and then stand still the second he backs off. 

The second one may be harder to explain, but you need to ask him to do what you want when he doesn't want to. Even if it takes all day, and there will be no breaks away from the object. At the float, for instance, he can stand there looking in and think things over, but he cannot leave the area or quit facing the trailer. Ask is the key word here, you cannot force him. You must be totally calm and slowly persistent. Every even tiny step forward must be rewarded. 

This then, is the third thing, praise and reward your horse when you "catch" him being good. Hang out with him and groom him in the pasture, then walk away. Give him treats so long as he follows the rule of taking it gently and respectfully. Show him you love and respect him while giving him firm boundaries to stay within. 

If you can do all this, you might just have a really great devoted horse


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'm pretty mild-mannered in my horse handling, as a rule. I don't feel a need to "win". I don't mind if we can't do something today if we can work on it tomorrow. And I've come to believe good horsemanship involves teaching the horse to "talk" to the human, and to make "mutually acceptable compromises".



> _...Which brings me to my next issue, trying to bite my head off. He will constantly run in front and cut me off, trying to bite me. Of course I discipline him firmly, but he doesn't care...The tapping with a whip, and then release of pressure when he moves forward (almost took my other arm off, and didn't care about the whip at all)..._


If your description is accurate, I'd be about 2 steps away from shooting the horse.

Frankly, a horse CAN bite your head off. Or at least remove your face. Or rip your bicep off your arm. And if I had a horse who was willing to do so, I'd kill him first, before he killed me.

Since you still have your head and arm, it is probably below the level of where he genuinely means to remove parts of your body. But if it isn't stopped, he may. Or remove part of the body of a vet, or farrier, or little kid.

And while I dislike people responding to every training problem with, "Get a trainer"...for genuinely dangerous behavior..."_Get a trainer!_" My guess is that someone with the right body language and attitude could straighten the horse out in a very short time. But there are horses who can go into full attack mode. "Get big" with some horses, and they will respond by proving they are bigger still!

It would take someone with experience and eyes on to determine just how dangerous the horse is and what approach is needed. Any horse who will genuinely try to attack a human is one I would shoot & bury.

Horses don't make "mutually acceptable compromises" unless the other party is formidable enough to merit making a compromise with. That doesn't mean we rule over the horse with terror and pain. But you cannot work with someone unless they are willing to work with you. As @mmshiro put it, "_...he does what he does because it works for him, and what he gets is to be left alone..._" You need to convince him that the bad behaviors don't gain him anything he wants. 

But for safety's sake, hire someone with the experience and ability to make sure this isn't one of the horses who will respond by stomping you into the ground. My guess is you are nagging the horse into escalating his behavior...but I don't have eyes on. Get someone who does. One hour with a pro on the ground will be better than getting Internet advice.


----------



## elkdog (Nov 28, 2016)

Horses are a fight or flight animal. When we cut off their escape and give pressure-pressure-pressure with no release. this is what happens. Whips and crops will just make it worse!


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

This horse has zero respect for you, and has turned into a dangerous bully. Either get someone in who has the skills to work with him, or get rid of him. The fact that this has escalated to what you are describing tells me you do not have the skillset to work with this horse, and are going to end up badly hurt sooner rather than later. He will get WORSE before he gets better, and he will challenge the person who informs him his little games are up and it's time to toe the line. 

This is a horse that you need to pay attention to with every.single.thing and shut down anything he does that is disrespectful. If he won't go forward, he's going to go backwards and in a darn big hurry. If he so much as pins an ear or gives me the stink eye, he's going to regret it. I would bet this horse has done a lot of things you haven't picked up on--- rushed through a gate and made you step out of the way, turned his rear to you in a stall, pulled on the lead shank rather than following quietly on a loose shank, gawked around and looked at things rather than paying attention to you, not moved over when asked when being groomed, fidgeting when tied, refusing to load, and his behavior under saddle is most likely due to his blatant disrespect and his 'no, I don't want to and you're not going to make me' attitude.... all of those little things add up to big things with this type of horse. When he ignores your corrections, he's telling you to buzz off and that you can't make him do things. Yes, you can, but you'd better be prepared to get in a fight and be sure you can win or you'll make him worse. You also have to be 100% sure you can reward any 'try' on his part by releasing the pressure. If you don't, he will retaliate or shut down completely. I would bet he has some pretty significant fear issues, too, which have resulted in him fighting back. You will need someone with good sense, the ability to read a horse, and the ability to discern anxiety from disobedience to work with him. 

You will not be able to fix this by being all nice and rewarding. I am by no means a believer in hurting a horse, but you have to protect yourself, and you have to escalate as he does for things like dangerous biting and kicking. 

GET SOME HELP with someone who has had experience with turning around horses like this. 

If he's a stallion, geld him. As nice as he may be, a horse with this attitude has no business reproducing.

I would also recommend subscribing to Warwick Schiller's video series. It's about $30/month and he does a LOT of work with warmbloods who have decided they can control their owners. His methods work really well for showing a horse that you can move his feet, stop moving his feet, and control him without escalating to an argument unless the horse chooses to do so while at the same time finding the things the horse is worried about and addressing them. Start at the beginning and work your way through. The videos are also excellent for showing you how the little things you may not consider, like how you lead a horse, can really make a difference in that horse's attitude toward you, and how to keep yourself safe by not getting in a situation you don't know how to handle. Clinton Anderson's methods are good, too, but unless you can find the DVD's used or borrow them, they're much more expensive. I still don't feel that at this point, you have the skills to turn this particular horse around, but if you learn while the horse is away learning, you will at least be able to stop his bad habits from returning once he's back home, and possibly prevent this from happening again with another horse.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I didn't read all the responses, but enough to agree with the general advise
Get the horse;s respect.
Why would you even be surprised that the horse did not 'float' well, if he does not even lead with respect?
A horse that acts the way you describe, being led out of his paddock, DOES NOT LEAD! A trailer loading issue is a leading issue.
"The obstacle is not the obstacle'.
Horses become un trained as well as trained. Not sure as to how well trained he was when you bought him, but since he is getting worse, now expanding his resistant actions to under saddle, I assume you have given him the proverbial inch, and he has taken the proverbial mile.
Frankly, I would not even worry about riding this horse at the moment, because a horse so disrespectful on the ground, is a ticking time bomb under saddle.
I don't know about you, but to me it is far safe to try and get that respect on the ground first, versus climbing on and hoping the hrose won't blow under saddle, when asked to go where he does not wish to,as he does on the ground.
I agree size has nothing to do with getting respect, as you don't get it by physically over powering a 1000 pound animal.
He should have felt like you were going to kill him, first time he ever offered to bite you.
I definitely would put a stud shank on this horse (no apologies), and teach him total respect wile being led Trying to use a whip effectively, while making sure the hrose leads beside you with respect, takes more co ordination then I have, while keeping my own body aligned correctly, and never mind being aware of any attempt to bite 100% of the time.
You 'loving' his character, thinking his antics show intelligence , shows me you really are not reading this horse correctly, trying to put a positive slant on things.
Even excusing his un willingness to trailer because the poor boy had along haul. Big deal!
I shipped horses from Canada to both Germany and the Czech Republic. Three had to be hauled across Canada, to fly out of Toronto, as International horse flights were not flying out of Calgary that year, due to the BSE in Europe. They loaded fine.
Another two horses, after landing in Belgium, had to trailer immediately in a closed trailer to the Czech Republic. 
You are looking for excuses for his behavior, and combine that with failure to be as 'firm as needed, to make that horse a good citizen', are setting him up to being 'horse steak"!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

elkdog said:


> Horses are a fight or flight animal. When we cut off their escape and give pressure-pressure-pressure with no release. this is what happens. Whips and crops will just make it worse!


Sorry, but in the case of this horse, the above advise is something I do not agree with.
His escape is NOT cut off. That would be the case of a horse cornered, being whipped, going on the offensive, because flight has been taken away.
That is a situation I certainly do NOT agree with.

I take it, this horse knows how to lead, I mean after all, he is being ridden,so not some un trained , un handled horse, with no idea as to how to give to pressure.
He has simply learned he does not need to lead, where he does not wish to go, and can in fact, attack that person at will, lead, if you wish to call it that, with total lack of respect, either balking or charging ahead
Unless he is being asked to walk through a closed gate, leaving that paddock, he in no way is 'trapped'
Release comes soon as that horse leads where asked, on a loose lead shank. I doubt he is being whipped, while he is willingly leading, thus getting no release from pressure !


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I won't rewrite what everyone else has said about the leading, biting, etc. They've already said what I would.

As for the refusal to load in the float - well, my solution for that with past horses is to feed them in the float. If you have one available, park it in his paddock and put his morning and evening feeds in the manger or hang a hay net in their. He'll get hungry enough to go in and eat. He should learn that the float is a Good Thing.

Okay. I can't not comment: You said he rushes past you to cut you off at the gate. Okay. Then make him keep MOVING. If he won't follow and pushes ahead, then he gets to move until he is gasping for breath, then he gets to move some more. He doesn't get to rest until he RESPECTFULLY follows you through the gate. Same goes with planting his feet and refusing. Step to his side and MAKE HIM MOVE.

Snaking, snapping, trying to bite? He'd better think you're going to take his face off when he tries that. I've been bitten. It isn't a pleasant experience. And until he learns that it isn't acceptable, I'd be haltering him with a muzzled halter so even if he does succeed in making contact, he can't rip a good portion of your body off! I'm sorry. Biters are one type of horse that I gladly put a bullet to.


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

This horse's refusal to load is most likely because he doesn't feel like it and knows his handler can't make him, not because he's afraid. Feeding him on the trailer won't make any difference because he's choosing not to obey because he knows he can. I would bet this horse loads just fine if he 'wants to' or for someone who knows how to handle him. 

Loading problems are generally leading problems.

I don't think this is a bad horse--- from what you describe, if he wanted to kill you by now he would have. However, that doesn't mean he won't if you keep this up. I think he's a bully and smart and needs a very skillful handler who instinctively can read a horse and won't let him get away with an inch.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You don't say if he's a stallion or a gelding - if he's a stallion then having him castrated would be the first wise thing to do. If he is a gelding you should get his hormone levels checked as he might not have been properly castrated.


Some horses that put on a pretty spectacular show of defiance and aggression will quit the moment they are challenged - they make a trainer look good but in fact they're no big deal at all.
The other sort are the ones that end up hurting someone. 
When you look how wild horses fight each other and still go back until one can't take any more you quickly realise that a crack with a whip is meaningless and a horse that means business won't even be phased by it and will be more likely to increase its attack on you.


I would send this horse to a trainer that knows that they're doing - not someone who thinks they can run it around to intimidate it, use brute force or bully it.


If you want to carry on by yourself you should always bridle it when you want to bring it in from the field - I would use a Chifney on it myself but you do need to know what you're doing when you use one. 


I disagree that a long journey won't upset a horse - 3 of my horses travelled here to the US from the UK and they coped just fine but they had good considerate people driving all of the time they were on the road. I've known plenty of horses get really put off travelling after even a short journey with a bad driver at the wheel
I wouldn't want to trailer/float this horse until you've sorted out his handling aggression issues but when you do you should also have a bridle on him and lead him off the bit so you've got more control - you can have a halter over the top of the bridle and remove the bridle once he's loaded and secured.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

not saying along trip does not stress a horse, just that it is no excuse for a hrose to refuse to load.
You work with the horse you have, which at times, means little past history to go on.


----------



## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Get professional help...immediately.


----------



## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Please do yourself and your horse a huge favour and abandon any consideration you have about "breaking his spirit."


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

contact this guy:

https://www.horseproblems.com.au/


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with @SilverMaple in that with this sort of horse, you must address EVERY expression of dominance in him, such as the pinned ears, the shoulder pushing in on you, the 'stink eye' (I call it that, too!)

And, that the slowly escalating 'tapping' of the crop on him to get him to move has probably only served to build his tolerance of things that normally motivate a more sensitive horse. Now he knows he can stand and take quite a lot of pressure, and that's something we never want our horses to learn.

I agree with others that you will need the help of a trainer who knows how to deal with 'mean' horses.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

This whole situation scares me, because it sounds a lot like the place I got to with Ben, apart from the aggression..the gradual pushing of boundaries that don't get nipped in the bud, leads to a big, smart, dominant horse becoming the boss, and he sees no reason why he should listen to you, or do anything he does not want to.

My advice, based on personal experience, get some professional help, or move him on before he hurts you...I can see so many things in your post that I overlooked as Ben was escalating....just PLEASE get hands on help.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie said:


> not saying along trip does not stress a horse, just that it is no excuse for a hrose to refuse to load.
> You work with the horse you have, which at times, means little past history to go on.


 It is not an excuse its a reason.
It doesn't mean that you don't work with sorting out the problem but you won't make a problem go away by not trying to understand why its there in the first place
If you can see a reason why a horse behaves in a certain way then you've a much better chance of correcting it than by adopting a trial and error approach and running the risk of making things a whole lot worse.


----------



## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Please get professional help or rehome this horse. From your post and the comments this horse is far outside of your skill set. This isn't a thing to be ashamed of, but for your own health and safety I would not keep a horse like this.

Has he always been like this? Was he untrained when you got him or had he been trained and you've let him get this bad? This isn't an accusation, this is just a question I had.

There are absolutely ways to gain respect without "breaking their spirit". The two times I've been injured by my mare have been purely accidental and in no way her being malicious. And anyone who has met her can say without a shred of doubt that her spirit is 100% intact.

It's a wonderful dream for everyone to frolic in a flower filled field with their horse and have this wonderful partnership without issues. But horses like you're describing need boundaries. They need to know their place. He is showing you that you are below him and that is a VERY dangerous thing to have taught a horse.

I think the trailer issues will be resolved when there is respect on the ground. As for riding, do not ride him in an ill fitting saddle. It's amazing how one little thing off can send a horse into hysterics. And honestly, I agree with those who said do not ride a horse with this little respect for you on the ground. That is asking for a major accident.

Please. You need help with this horse. If there is any hope of getting him to behave, you need someone sooner than later. Or his only choice will be euthanasia.


----------



## vonlora (Mar 28, 2011)

Hi Elltana,
Sorry you are going thru this, not what you were hoping for, betting you would just like to go for a nice ride. 
Everyone is correct, he doesn't seem to care what you want and is only interested in what he wants, and is going to try everything to insure he wins.
Hate to make you start over, but if you can't send him to a trainer, and the vet says he has no health issues or needs his wolf teeth pulled, then back to the beginning.
C L Anderson does work well, make what you want easy and want he wants hard. 
So go into the pasture with a good halter and lounge line. Start him out the gate, when he refuses or acts up, work him hard - lunge him until he sweats, gets tired and is ready to listen. Then start out the gate again, if he refuses, work him again. Allow a lot of time since the objective is to make him realize that leaving the pasture with good manners means he is no longer having to work hard. May have to repeat a few time until he makes the connection (longer he has gotten away with it the longer it will take before he realizes that bad manners equals lots of hard work.) 
If the Anderson method works (doesn't on all horses, some are very stubborn) than expand to his other issues. If you don't want to do what I ask, then you need to work.


Thou the biting is another issue, that is very dangerous. A small hard nosed crop with instant hard contact is a must. It can not miss, then it becomes a game.


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ Good advice if you have the skills, but I don't think the OP does. This horse is probably not going to simply trot around on the longe until he's tired. He's the type that is going to decide enough of this game and take off. If that doesn't work, he'll come after her with hooves and teeth to make her stop. Seen it happen. Not pretty. If she's having this many problems with him, she does not have the skills to deal with him and keep herself safe if he does this. That's nothing against her-- everyone start somewhere, but this is not the horse to learn on. She needs serious professional help with this horse at this point. He's past the point of 'make him work and he'll change his mind'.


----------



## vonlora (Mar 28, 2011)

yes, am hoping that this is in the scope of the owners talent. not sure how big the field is he is stabled in, may be the exercise can use the whole area and incorporate all of the members.
hate to have him run off trailing the lounge line, so if he doesn't lounge, may require the hard handling of a stud chain.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Welcome to the forum, OP. It sounds like you do have your hands very full. 

For all the ground manners problems you are having with him, it does not surprise me one bit that you are having trouble trailering (floating) him. Trailering really is an extension of ground manners -- since he does not have good ground manners, it makes sense he doesn't trailer well.

I do agree with the others that you should seek professional help. Find a trainer in your area who is experienced with ground work. When done correctly, it is NOT going to look "pretty" in the slightest, in the beginning. But you've got a very aggressive horse that has been allowed to have bad manners and so it's going to look ugly before it starts looking better. So prepare yourself for that.



elltana said:


> So I don't want to break his spirit...
> 
> He will constantly run in front and cut me off, trying to bite me....


I think you need to change your mental outlook on the situation. You are worried about hurting poor Dobbin, and he is trying to kill you. I'm serious when I say that. I don't think you realize how dangerous of a situation you are really in. You should be thinking more about YOUR well being, and less about his. 

If I had a horse that what doing what you describe, hell, I don't care what I had to break to get it through their head that their behavior is not acceptable. No, I'm not talking about abusing and/or beating a horse -- I'm talking about doing what is necessary to keep myself safe and out of harm's way.



elltana said:


> He rarely wants to leave his paddock, which usually ends up with him planting his feet, very adamant on not leaving. To combat this, I used to use a whip (giving him a light tap, and then a harder one when he wouldn't respond) but now he won't respond to a whip at all. *So I walk him away from the gate*, and do halting and walking exercises, getting him listening to me. This works sometimes, but every time I turn him towards the gate again he would cut me off and try to bite my head off.


You give into him. He doesn't want to go through the gate, your "nagging" with the whip isn't strong enough to change his mind, so you turn him away from the gate and have now just trained him to not go through the gate. The way you handle this is making it worse.




elltana said:


> Of course I discipline him firmly, but he doesn't care.


Then you aren't disciplining him enough to MAKE him care. 

A correct needs to mean something. If he's ignoring you, then you aren't doing it strong enough or not using the correct timing.



elltana said:


> As we are a performance home, I take, and have to take, this horse out a lot. However he is a massive pain to transport. This one is a little more understandable on his part. I brought him over from Melbourne, and his trip was very hard on him. So naturally he doesn't like to float. (Note: he isn't scared of floating (trust me) *he just doesn't want to*)


You are right. He doesn't want to. And being how he is allowed to get away with what he wants, he's not going to load into the trailer. (Here's where those bad ground manners come back to bite you in the rump.)

So until you get his ground manners under control, do NOT trailer (float) him anywhere, or you'll end up with the same situation you described where you had a horse that you couldn't get home.




elltana said:


> The next stuff is less important, but it's in the saddle work. He is very naughty when I get on him (especially when I am off property, that horse won't stay still!) and he has stared to buck and rear, something that I am not very happy about. Now all the riding stuff I believe is due to his saddle (he has had it fitted before, but he needs another one because he has filled out a lot). He isn't in pain though, just discomfort, a saddle fitter is coming in next week.


While it is a good idea to make sure his saddle fits properly, I believe you simply have a spoiled brat on your hands, both on the ground and under saddle.



elltana said:


> We have had him float trained, their method was the constant tapping with the whip until he takes a step forward. They spend nine hours over three days on this, and it did not work one bit. He just got super angry.


Nine hours?? I'd get super angry too.

There does come a point when a horse's brain is "fried" and he's not going to learn anymore. Yes, you do need to push them but you have to know when to stop and end the session for the day. Sounds like these "trainers" did not know when they crossed that line.



elltana said:


> This is a lot of information, so I apologise about that. He is a dominant and extremely stubborn horse, so beating him down will NOT work, so please don't suggest I whip him or beat him. I need another method.


I don't think anyone will or is suggesting you beat your horse. But you do need to use that whip more effectively and with correct timing. It's all about the timing.


----------



## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Dangerous, scary horses are not something I'm willing to deal with any longer. I agree with the suggestion of professional training but honestly, once I no longer trust a horse, it's time for them to move on.


You're going to get hurt or worse, if you insist on trying to deal with this beast by yourself. He has your number, and is more than willing to challenge you at every opportunity.


This is beyond your ability to handle, and 'training with love' isn't going to cut it. The animal needs a professional to give him a few CTJ meetings, and once he's trained he needs to be sold with full disclosure of his issues to someone who can handle him, and isn't afraid to make him mind. You are not that person, OP.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

This honestly sounds terrifying. I can't fathom why anyone would want to own such a horse. 

I can't give you advice other than get a professional involved or sell this horse. I'd like to think there is a way to fix this horse without beating him within an inch of his life though... but honestly, I don't know how these issues can be fixed. That's why you need a professional, not a bunch of people on the Internet telling you what to do. 

Not only is he putting you at risk, but he is putting himself at risk because if he really hurts someone, his days will truly be numbered. 

Good luck.


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm thinking that about now you are overwhelmed by the responses. Maybe you feel denial - you think we don't understand? We do, and way better than you will believe. These people who have responded with advice here are all EXPERIENCED knowledgeable horse people.

Just because we don't know. . . if that horse is a stallion he needs gelding. yesterday. As someone else said, on temperament alone he is not suitable for stud. Stallions are for experienced people, period. And most experienced people just don't want to go there. Stallions are never 'pets' the way other horses can be.

You need to sit down and have a good think, and be honest with yourself. Consider your level of horsemanship/ training/ handling/ etc.
Think about this horse when you got him. How he is now. Do you really think you have what is needed to turn him around? I can get why you want to persevere. . .selling him may feel like 'giving up' or 'failure' . . . perish the thought, it is all about what is good for the horse and what is good for you. Right now neither of you look to be in a pretty position. The horses behaviour has him close to being dog food (truly). 

I have been bitten (arm) and its not funny. . if the horse had aimed for my head I could be dead, because there was no time to react. IT IS SERIOUS. My BILs friend got picked up from the middle of his back by BILs stallion, the horse was put down the same day. THEY ARE DANGEROUS, and that horse had no excuses just poor temperament (it was in his bloodline, but he had not done anything like that before).

Your position, you could be on the receiving end of a horse attacking. When he is really serious, he won't miss. I can not believe you are not already afraid, if not actually terrified. I would be. 

This horse needs an expert horse-breaker/trainer to bring him right, and maybe it is not too late. BUT he will never be a suitable horse for you. The best thing you can do for both of you is find him a home where he will get that training, or you pay for that training then find him a good home. My pick is option a, and let the trainer find the horse the right home.

Get yourself a horse that is going to rebuild your confidence.

No one here wants to see you hurt.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> It is not an excuse its a reason.
> It doesn't mean that you don't work with sorting out the problem but you won't make a problem go away by not trying to understand why its there in the first place
> If you can see a reason why a horse behaves in a certain way then you've a much better chance of correcting it than by adopting a trial and error approach and running the risk of making things a whole lot worse.


 While I agree with your basic premise, I don't see why that gives a horse an excuse to totally ignore leading with respect, and that is outside of even basic trailer loading.
Balking, asked to leave paddock, charging ahead at times, while led, rearing under saddle, biting, all go way beyond any trailing trauma, JMO!
The horse has the OPs number, loud and clear, and has decided he is the leader.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

There are only a few possible scenarios here.

One: horse puts you in the hospital. Horse is then shot, and buried where he fell. You are afraid of horses for the rest of your life.

Two: send horse to a real trainer experienced in successfully rehabbing *spoiled dangerous* horses like yours. Horse is then placed with experienced rider who can keep him minding. 

There are permutations of One and Two, but from here, One looks the most likely. 

In my admittedly small experience, people who do not understand how to command respect from animals have a very hard time learning it, if they get to adulthood without doing so. This is NOT the animal to learn on.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

From original post:

'Which brings me to my next issue, trying to bite my head off. He will constantly run in front and cut me off, trying to bite me. Of course I discipline him firmly, but he doesn't care. I am slightly below average in height, and he is a pretty big horse (he puffs himself up) so when he attacks me I always do get nervous. I know that getting scared and nervous doesn't help. I have been around horses enough that when they play up it doesn't effect me confidence wise, but how I am feeling doesn't seem to be the issue here (if that even makes sense)
So overall with the leading he doesn't respect me one bit, and if he doesn't want to go somewhere, it requires all of my effort to get him there."

The Op;has also stated that his ground work is 'getting worse, plus he has started to rear and buck lately

His trailering issues are due tot he above, and not a long haul, plus, the fact that he is getting worse, leads me to believe that the OP bought ahorse that is just too much for her.No shame in that, but for both the horse's sake and her own, she has to realize that fact, and either sell him or get professional help.
Reading the OP's posts, I sure hope that at least she did not buy a stallion, based on her horse experience. If so, geld him like yesterday!


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Avna;
In my admittedly small experience said:


> that is a provocative thought. I am thinking on this and wondering if I can counter it, . . or not.
> 
> I know that I am able to command respect from most horses. Could I do so from this horse? . . . . maybe not.
> Some horses get to the place where they really start to 'lean into' pressure more than move away from it, so that the more pressure you apply, sure in your own ability to 'bluff' this huge animal into moving off, the more that animal just relfects it back at you.
> ...


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> But , sometimes, with some horses, you match their push with your push, and they just up the push. That is where you have to have the ability to get very big, very fast so that you surprise them out of the frame of mind where they notch things up, notch by notch. YOu have to do something that knocks them off their paradigm of the world, where they start to rethink things.


That is true about taking the horse out of their paradigm of the world. Sometimes it's not the amount of force, it's the type that gets through to them. If one of my mares got very, very upset she would lose her ability to think, so would just roll her eyes and fling her body around, knocking into people. It took awhile to find something that would get through when she was unable to focus like this because she didn't seem to feel or notice even the most assertive person or action. 

Someone gave me the tip that sometimes if you grab the loose skin around the shoulder or chest, and then twist or pinch it between your hand, it can get through to the horse that has lost it. This does not actually seem very painful to the horse, but it stopped my mare in her tracks and she would not move into that pressure or person applying it. So you could stop her from swinging around and into people, or put her back where she needed to be, long enough to get her mind back working again so she could think and apply the manners she uses in every day life. 

A different type of situation, but it illustrates how sometimes you just need the right method for the particular horse. I believe these things can be learned, at any time in life. Yet you must be the right type of person to apply these things, and I think a small but critical part of this is believing that you can do it and are the right person to make it happen. That is only a small part, because you must also have the skills to apply what needs to be done, in a safe manner. 
To be clear, I'm not recommending that the right attitude is all it takes or that you should attempt this yourself. But without that attitude, you'll never manage to take on a horse like this. 

It requires a certain faith, one based on experiences you've had in the past and not just wishful thinking. It requires the ability to use logic to see if what you are doing is safe enough, and to not let emotion like fear or anger color your judgment. It requires correct timing. 



> I know that I am able to command respect from most horses. Could I do so from this horse? . . . . maybe not.


I'm not saying that this is a wrong attitude, at all. It is a humble attitude, and humility is also critical to working with horses. But if the horse was dropped off in my barn, I'd say yes, I will get through to this horse. Not because of feeling cocky or superior, but because of a mental attitude that you must have to work with difficult horses that says you will find a way. You will be creative, you will try a hundred things, you'll read up on things you've never heard of before, but you believe you will get through because you are determined to do so.

Maybe you'll stop leading the horse for awhile and will ground drive him all around the property until he learns to listen and work with you. Maybe you'll free lunge him and work him at a distance, maybe you'll put a bit on him and side reins and lead him while he learns you can actually control his posture. The possibilities are only limited by the creativity of the trainer, which type of flexible person is what this horse needs.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I love the video of CA posted earlier. The woman classes herself as a trainer yet allowed the horse to become boss (and dangerous) which says to me that she hadn't a clue about horses that question humans.

I notice that you placed this in 'NATURAL' Horsemanship, not in Training. This for me says that you want to be 'nice' and not go against this horse, unfortunately that isn't going to work. 

The horse is a bully, you have allowed him to become so and to get him to think otherwise is not going to be pretty. _I am not talking about beating him up,_ to gain his respect is not going to be easy as he knows he can get away with things. 

I too would have a chain across his nose, a lunge line and also a lunge whip when leading him. The moment he planted I would wrap that whip around his back legs and lunge him hard where he was. Big difference is that I have the experience and the coordination to do so and keep control of his head. I also have no doubt that I am the boss and he will follow. 

Naughty antics are only funny if the horse is playing with another out in a field, behaviour like this around humans is never amusing.


----------



## elltana (Jun 12, 2017)

My goodness thank you for all the replies!
Not going to lie, I feel a little overwhelmed and disheartened by some of them, which is none of your faults, I guess I am just a hopeful at heart! I just wanted to say and clarify a couple of things.
I decided yesterday that I would get professional help (after I posted this) and the lady came today and worked with Wilbur, did ground work and got him on the float. She did it in about half an hour, and she made good progress with him already. I know he respects her, and not me, but I am hoping under her guidance I will learn how to handle him better. She was amazing and I am very hopeful!
I am not selling this horse, not yet, I don't want to give up on him that easy. 
I wanted to clarify my relationship and outlook on this horse. I realise now looking back at my post that I sound airy fairy, romantic and quite naive. I just wanted to say that is not the case. I am very well aware that this horse does not respect me one bit, and I wanted to clarify that I have been trying my hardest to not let him get away with his behaviour. Obviously my methods have not been successful with him, that's why I asked for other ideas on here. 
Please believe me when I say this horse and I have good moments. In fact, the good moments far outweigh the bad, just the bad is bad. I know it's hard to look past this behaviour (and trust me I don't, "a horse can't only respect you sometimes") and I am not saying he ever respects me, maybe he doesn't, but we have beautiful moments, and those moments keep me hanging on to him. 
As for the riding, I would like to clarify that I am an experienced rider (if I do say so myself), the reason why I didn't focus on his bucking, rearing moments is that they are small, are handled quickly and firmly, and while this is again hard to believe from the rest of his behaviour, are certainly saddle related. I know it's hard to believe, as a lot of you see me as inexperienced, but you will have to trust me on this one. (Also I am not riding him at the moment because of it, as soon as I learned he was sore from his saddle I stopped).

I am not defending him, maybe I am defending myself a bit, although I don't mean to. Probably the reason why I haven't been as hard on him as all of you suggest is because I am under the watchful eye of people who try to take him away from me as soon as I get angry or too firm for their liking, so I guess I am a little conflicted. I also am a massive sookie towards animals.
He is not a stallion! Don't worry, I don't feel the need to handle all of that. 

So in conclusion I am a little bit of a softy, but I am also very firm with my horses (the other horses on the property respect the crap out of me), Wilbur is nothing like I have ever seen before, and is honestly the most dominant and stubborn horse I have ever worked with in my short life. But we are on the road to learning now, and I have gotten help. I thank all of you for all your responses, and if you want me to clarify anything else please say. It's been very interesting for me to see how everyone would deal with this, and if you would like I can keep you all updated on our progress. I hope this hasn't been too naive again, I am only sixteen after all, and have a lot to learn, so I thank you all for teaching me some things


----------



## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Good for you to reach out for that help...
This issue is not "fixed" in one session either but many. 
When this lady steps back and you do with confidence, all alone with Wilbur and he have respect for you, following your lead and authority quietly, then it is fixed, a work in progress always, as long as you never let your guard down.

As for this...
_Probably the reason why I haven't been as hard on him as all of you suggest is because I am under the watchful eye of people who try to take him away from me as soon as I get angry or too firm for their liking, so I guess I am a little conflicted. I also am a massive sookie towards animals.

_This is people watching you, realizing you are in over your head and you don't recognize the danger you put yourself in.
You don't "get angry" with a 1300 hundred pound horse.
We have a brain and brain function huge in comparison to a horses...
You will never out-muscle them so you better learn how to out-think, out-maneuver their antics and best them before they best you.

It is also time to stop being _"a massive sookie"_ and get the respect of all animals you interact with...
Dogs, cats and any other breathing animal will take advantage if you do not lead or show leadership abilities...
When you learn to command respect, your interaction with animals _and _people will change dramatically for the better...

Watch this new lady who is working with Wilbur...after she has spent some time working with the horse it is you she now needs to educate in how to act, to respond, to show leadership and authority to not just Wilbur but all the horses...
Not every horse has a dominant personality, most don't and that is why you get away with thinking they respect you...no. They just don't push "your buttons"...
Wilbur did and just look at what they got you.... learning now how to command respect. :wink:

Remember every-time you interact and handle a horse, any horse... or animal or even human you are teaching them how they can treat you, or respect shown to you or not...every-time is a training lesson good or bad in result.
:runninghorse2:....
_jmo..._


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

elltana said:


> I am not defending him, maybe I am defending myself a bit, although I don't mean to. Probably the reason why I haven't been as hard on him as all of you suggest is because I am under the watchful eye of people who try to take him away from me as soon as I get angry or too firm for their liking, so I guess I am a little conflicted. I also am a massive sookie towards animals.


I'm not going to get in to his disrespectful behavior because it sounds like you're getting help with that. Most trainers are great at teaching you how to ride but don't put much emphasis on handling/respect on the ground. Not sure why that is, I think it's totally backwards but that's a tale for another day. 

"Probably the reason why I haven't been as hard on him as all of you suggest is because I am under the watchful eye of people who try to take him away from me as soon as I get angry or too firm for their liking, so I guess I am a little conflicted.". 

This right here blows my mind. I would feel very sorry for the idiot who tried to "take my horse away" because they didn't like how I was handling him according to THEIR standards. They don't count. Now, if you're beating on him way past effectiveness that's different, but if you're just getting into him because he's being a jerk you need to learn to say, "Thank you, I appreciate your point of view.", AFTER you've finished dealing with the horse. In other words tell them to shut up and mind their own. 

I am a total softie (I'm thinking that's what sookie means?) with animals too, but not when it's dangerous, disrespectful behavior. At that point I convince them that they are lunch with a capital L. And I can be a total she cat with humans if they want to mess in my business. When it's good it's great and when it's bad it's unspeakable. Have had a couple like that. If you have the desire you can probably work through it, now that I'm older, I no longer have the desire.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

elltana said:


> if you would like I can keep you all updated on our progress. <snip> I am only sixteen after all, <snip>


Yes, please - I'd be interested in following your story. Just keep it in this thread because thread titles are easier to remember than user names...

Also, you may have hinted at your problem - I do believe that horses, just like we, can "sense" that a youngster does not pose a credible threat. If I see a horse with a baby face, I let my guard down a lot more than when I see an impressive TB stallion. It doesn't matter that the difference between 1000 pounds and 1500 pound is irrelevant for practical intents and purposes. 

Again, and this warrants repeating, "posing a credible threat" does not mean you show him you are prepared to hurt him anytime he doesn't listen. It means that you have the power to make him sweat if he doesn't listen, and that he gets to relax when he does. 

Did you ever do some "joining up" - not in a round pen, but in an arena or small pasture where he has room to move? And again, this also warrants repeating: The exercise is not to run the snot out of him until he collapses at your feet, the exercise is to have him pay attention to you wherever he is in relation to you. He ignores you, you put on the pressure. He gives you one eye, you relax. He gives you two eyes and ears, you back away - no matter how far or near he is. The release comes from acknowledging you as important, approaching you respectfully is a natural byproduct of that.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

elltana said:


> As for the riding, I would like to clarify that I am an experienced rider (if I do say so myself),
> 
> Probably the reason why I haven't been as hard on him as all of you suggest is because I am under the watchful eye of people* who try to take him away from me* as soon as I get angry or too firm for their liking, so I guess I am a little conflicted.
> 
> I hope this hasn't been too naive again, I am only sixteen after all, and have a lot to learn, so I thank you all for teaching me some things


Well I will say you seem to have a good head on your shoulders for being only 16. So I commend you for that. But you are only 16. :wink: Of course, all of us have been there at one point in life.

Curious -- Who would take Wilbur away from you? (Maybe they would like to try to reprimand a horse that tries to plow them over and bite their head off. :icon_rolleyes: )

It's certainly not about getting angry, but it is just about showing Wilbur what his new boundaries are and what is acceptable and what isn't. 

Think about how horses interact in the wild. You usually have a stallion who is in charge of the herd. If a mare gets out of line, the stallion will often give her some sort of warning (ears pinned, for example) and will waste no time in biting or kicking her if she doesn't do what he wants. The mare doesn't have her "feelings hurt" from the correction -- she knows she was out of line and needs to do what the leader tells her to do.

Between you and Wilbur, right now he is a leader. You need to find a way to switch those roles. You need to be the leader. You call the shots. If he doesn't obey, then he gets corrected. You are not abusing him or making him fear you -- you are simply being the lead stallion in your little herd of two. 



elltana said:


> I decided yesterday that I would get professional help (after I posted this) and the lady came today and worked with Wilbur, did ground work and got him on the float. She did it in about half an hour, and she made good progress with him already. I know he respects her, and not me, but I am hoping under her guidance I will learn how to handle him better. She was amazing and I am very hopeful!


That is good news. Keep working with her and learning from her. The most important thing you can try to learn is TIMING. It's about watching the horse's body language. You need to know when to continue pushing them, when to hold, and when to back off. (So it's also about knowing your body language too.)

If you release pressure too soon, Wilbur learns that he doesn't have to listen to you. If you release pressure too late, Wilbur doesn't learn what the correct response was and/or could panic because he's overwhelmed. So it's a very delicate balance to get that timing just right. This is where someone in-person can be guiding you.

Certainly keep us posted on your progress. And remember to always stay 100% consistent with him. When you slack off and let something slide, then those old nasty habits come back again.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie said:


> While I agree with your basic premise, I don't see why that gives a horse an excuse to totally ignore leading with respect, and that is outside of even basic trailer loading.
> Balking, asked to leave paddock, charging ahead at times, while led, rearing under saddle, biting, all go way beyond any trailing trauma, JMO!
> The horse has the OPs number, loud and clear, and has decided he is the leader.


 Why are you back to being confused between excuses and reasons?
My comment about some horses do get put off trailering after having a bad ride had zero to do with working with this horse's bad attitude or him lacking respect on the ground. 
It was merely to correct your apparent lack of knowledge or experience when you claimed that a bad trip in a trailer won't upset a horse. I did not say that it was this horse's problem.
To go back to this horse's attitude - how many horses like this have you personally dealt with and fixed?


----------



## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm very glad you are getting professional help with him. I hope it's enough, but don't be discouraged if you end up needing to rehome him. There is no shame in admitting you have a horse outside of your current abilities. We just would hate to see you get hurt from a preventable situation.

How did you come to own him? Have you had him for a while? Little back story on him could help.

I will say I'm impressed with how you handled all of the responses here, and that you were able to see that we're just a group of people that actually care about people. I know some people would take it as attacking, but we all just don't want to see someone get hurt.

At 16 there is a lot left to learn. Heck, at 30 there is still a lot to learn! I do hope you continue sharing how this progresses so we can stay up to date on him.

I will also remark on people wanting to take him from you. Why is that? Do they also feel he is too much? Very curious about this. My horse is far from abused, but some of our little manner lessons haven't been pretty. I'd have beat a person who would try to take her from me, though I have never beaten my horse.

I wish you the best, and I hope you keep us posted. And if it turns out he's just never going to be a horse that will respect you, please realize there is zero shame in admitting it and moving on.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Why are you back to being confused between excuses and reasons?
> My comment about some horses do get put off trailering after having a bad ride had zero to do with working with this horse's bad attitude or him lacking respect on the ground.
> It was merely to correct your apparent lack of knowledge or experience when you claimed that a bad trip in a trailer won't upset a horse. I did not say that it was this horse's problem.
> To go back to this horse's attitude - how many horses like this have you personally dealt with and fixed?


Nope, did not say a long trIALER TRIP WOULD NOT UPSET or have an impact on A HORSE=SORRY!
I indicated that it would should not cause a hrose that had respect in leading, to load, nor be an excuse to do so.
I had a mare, who got infected, being bred to an outside stud, by IA. Long story that does not matter as to details
Point being, she was always easy to load, but after associating being loaded with multi uterine flushes, ultra sounds, she started to refuse to load. Yup.I understood the reason, yet, when she refused to load, on a return trip from the vet;s, I simply put on a stud shank.
The vet at first, was a bit alarmed, but I told him, don't worry, I won't even need to take the slack out of that shank.
True to that statement, soon as I placed that stud shank under the chin, Scoots loaded without me ever needing to take slack out of the lead shank

One year, hauling late into the mountains, I spun out, even in 4 wheel drive, and had the trailer pull me backwards, then go at a right angle and drop over the edge. A small clump of poplars were all that prevented both myself and the hroses from falling to our doom.

The horses were at an acute angle, and I could not open the rear door, as it was jammed against the trees.
We managed to get them out the side door, meant only for people.

The entire time we were there riding, I worried about loading them for the home trip. Both horses stepped in, same as always

When a horse does not even lead with respect, taking any attempt to trailering out of that equation, then having them refuse to load, is really not surprising in my books!

My one friend has done long commercial horse hauls, across Canada, and way down into the States. Whenever she can,on over night stops, she un loads those horses.
Thus, one of her stipulations is that those hroses load well. Of course, owners all declare their horses as being good loaders

Well,hauling often by herself, needing to load early in the morning, in some remote place, she has had to give some of those horses loading lessons
When you are on a schedule, picking up other hroses, dropping horses off, it really does not matter that the hrose sees no reason as to why he should get back on that trailer-just that he does

I have trailered enough horses over the years, either to shows,, or out tot he mountains, where rides are often less then smooth, to not be completely ignorant that there can be a reason for a horse not wanting to load, other then he does not even lead with respect, but that still is no excuse for a horse refusing to load.

Of course, if trailer design, way the human drives, is not okay, like ahorse not able to spread his feet for balance, because of dividers, that is another whole story!
By the way, my friend always tells the new buyer, once she has delivered ahorse, although the hrose appears fine, the long haul was stressful, and the hrose needs some time before he is expected to work

Sorry, if I see the main problem with this horse not being past history, but rather lack of respect for his current owner, and holes in basic skills, like, yup, leading with respect
Very few if any horses are going to load well, if they don;t even lead well!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

What good news, firstly that you had someone come to help you and that the horse made a turn around with her. For me that means he is not so bad, just plain cheeky and has a good brain. 

Now the hard work comes formyou to learn the techniques, the most important thing is timeing. 

People talk about ground manners and go on about a horse walking correctly when led, yielding hind quarters backing when asked. These are obviously very important but for me are secondary to manners in the stable. That is where it all starts. 

I expect a horse to move back to give me room when I enter a stable. If I am doing anything in the stable, like mucking out, I expect the horse to move over when asked. I tack in the stable and teach the horse to stand along the back wall, I do not allow him to move even if the door is open, he has to stay where put. If he should move, even half a step, he is made to take that step back, not roughly but firmly. 

They are not allowed to move around when having anything done to them, correction is usually a rough growling voice and/or a firm finger poke. 

These are only little things, life has taught me that if you correct the little things the major rarely happens. 

Good luck and keep us posted please.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree you also need good barn manners, in fact, good manners period.
A horse with respect, does not try to bite you, does not invade your space, yields respectfully to pressure, be it standing tied, moving hips over, when asked, backs when asked, and is respectful at all times, including feeding time
Sure, I also ground tie horses quite often to saddle, groom and un saddle, not in a stall, but in the middle of the barn isle, with barn door wide open
The horse is also good with feet handling, and mine are, since I do all my own trimming. Leading with respect is just another facet of the entire picture of good ground manners


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> What good news, firstly that you had someone come to help you and that the horse made a turn around with her. For me that means he is not so bad, just plain cheeky and has a good brain.


Good luck with your horse, it sounds like things are going better.

I'm not one to say you don't know anything because of your age, or put you down. But the creative descriptions and writing in your first post I believe gave us all word pictures that were much more dramatic and dangerous than what I believe you are facing in real life. Language is interesting because I think many of us were imagining a very aggressive horse nearly as tough as the one in the movie "Buck," and that is a rare and difficult challenge for anyone to face. 

But my impression now (no offense) is that this is a more usual horse and one you could soon learn to manage with the right instruction. 

About your age...perhaps if you can think of yourself as still having a lot to learn (I think this about myself, and I'm 40 and have been studying horses my whole life so far), rather than being very experienced, it will help you be open to learning new things. I've met some good riders at 16, but there just hasn't been enough time in life to have had a wide range of experiences, and I think the same in my career when I meet a nurse who says she is "very experienced" and she's 25. 

I remember clearly being your age and not wanting anyone to think I couldn't possibly know very much even though I had already studied many horse subjects and read every book and magazine I could.

Still, it can be better to acknowledge you're smart, young and learning fast than to believe you've already "arrived" or are "experienced." No one needs to put you down for being young, but you also don't want to over sell yourself and end up with more than you can safely handle. Or pass up opportunities to learn new things. 

So once you've sorted out this horse, understand that even if he is difficult, this doesn't make you an expert in horse training now. There are many other types of horses and difficulties with horses, and you'll be learning (like the rest of us) for the duration of your life.


----------



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

One thing I would like to comment about is the trailer loading. If you try whipping them or tapping to get them in, sometimes it back fires. The horse begins to resist or fight, the owner begins to lose their temper... the horse fights harder because in his mind you are attacking him. Remember, you are dealing with the mentality of a 3 year old child who is now throwing a tantrum.

The best approach is to pretend you have all day and for you to stay as relaxed as possible. If you rush or are nervous, the horse is going to know it! So this means you need to practice at home, where you don't have to get him in that day. Feeding in the trailer helps. 

When I start my young horses, we start with loading and eating in the trailer, eventually going around the block and back home. Usually I include a buddy, but we also do this individually. Once I get back home, we unload and reload. We practice this so that when we trailer off the property, I should not have a problem with loading. I teach all my horses to self load- I prefer not to enter that trailer for safety reasons. 

The problem is your horse has had a bad experience with the trailer. This means you need many positive experiences to outweigh the bad. The goal is to get a horse who understands what you want, and is calm when entering the trailer.

Moving the feet- or lunging the horse and letting him rest in the trailer, works in some cases of sticky feet. But some horses are so fearful of the trailer, they will not give up. 

If he is becoming that aggressive when faced with the trailer, then the people trying to load him were overly aggressive or over facing him. 

What techniques did your trainer use which worked? For loading.


----------



## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

As usual I am late to the party, so I won't restate what has already been said. But I do want to take a second and commend you for handling all this advice and taking it in the vein that it was meant. All too often people see it as negative and get defensive, and nothing gets accomplished. You are only 16, when I was 16 I was dumber than a duck. Too dumb to even ask advice let alone be receptive to it! Keep the faith, watch and work with this new trainer, and be firm, fair, and consistent and things will quickly turn around!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I object to the above - ducks aren't dumb, they have a very good brain in their heads!


----------



## Martiefranza1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Just here to commend you for being such a level headed 16 year old! You are being smart and practical in taking in the advice and sorting thru it. But mostly for getting help! Hang in there, Wilbur will come around.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> I object to the above - ducks aren't dumb, they have a very good brain in their heads!


Not that it has anything to do with this thread but I often wonder. When the saying "Dumb as a Duck" came into use, were they referring to the ducks inability to talk? Used to be referring to someone as Deaf & Dumb meant they couldn't hear or speak, not that they were stupid.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Not that it has anything to do with this thread but I often wonder. When the saying "Dumb as a Duck" came into use, were they referring to the ducks inability to talk? Used to be referring to someone as Deaf & Dumb meant they couldn't hear or speak, not that they were stupid.


LOL, I never heard that one before, dumb as a box of rocks is what I know.

Just wondering, where are the parents or trainer in this picture?


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

This side of the pond it is usually thick as a plank or daft as a brush,


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> This side of the pond it is usually thick as a plank or daft as a brush,


LOL! I've heard thick as a plank, but never daft as a brush. Love that one!


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> LOL, I never heard that one before, dumb as a box of rocks is what I know.
> 
> Just wondering, where are the parents or trainer in this picture?


We always used dumber'n dirt, but still, the dumb definition applies. My dad always did tell us to "Never argue with a stump.".


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> I object to the above - ducks aren't dumb, they have a very good brain in their heads!


I disagree on their intelligence. I've kept a lot of livestock and the ranking for me is more or less

pigs
goats
horses
sheep
cattle
geese
chickens
ducks
and then way down past that . . . emus.

they aren't dumb in the silent sense either, they're pretty dang noisy.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> This side of the pond it is usually thick as a plank or daft as a brush,


Or maybe two short planks!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Intelligence as we know it depends a lot on how and how much an animal is handled. 

Humans are more likely to say that animals do not have he power of logic or reasoning but take the OPs horse, it didn't take him long to reason that he could get away from her and play up when he liked. 

Pigs are renowned for their brain power, I would list cattle above sheep.

People say 'bird brained' yet they are not at all. A parrot I had would never say 'Goodbye' to anyone entering or 'Hello' when they left. 

A crow reasons and uses tools to solve problems for a food reward. Problems that a small child or a dog couldn't solve a crow did in a matter of minutes.


----------



## koda2004 (Sep 2, 2017)

I agree with what has been said about gaining respect. I TOTALLY understand what you are going through here. Just today I was working on halter breaking a 7 year old stallion, he is sweet but when it comes to telling him what to do he takes advantage of my small size. I would not call the stallion I was working with aggressive but he needs a change of perspective. I know that the horse I am working with ,and it may be the same for you, responds better to men so that means that I have to find more creative ways to gain his respect. I know you don't want to make him dislike you but, metaphorically if he tries to bite you, bite or kick him with your handy stick/carrot stick. If he keeps getting worse it means that he has learned that whatever he is doing either makes you run or makes you stop telling him what to do. It may mean that you have to chase him around in a round pen like a crazy person for a while. teach him that he doesn't scare you.


----------



## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

I did not mean to be the father of such disputation (bonus points to whoever gets that movie referrence), so I hereby reword my statement to dumber than a sackful of hammers!


----------



## Lilah (Jan 24, 2017)

6gun Kid said:


> I did not mean to be the father of such disputation (bonus points to whoever gets that movie referrence), so I hereby reword my statement to dumber than a sackful of hammers!


How about "sharp as a bowling ball..." courtesy of Foghorn Leghorn.


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Aside from all the conversations around animal intelligence OP, I'd like to say that you have every reason to be hopeful! If your horse responded to this other person, then there is hope indeed. But you will need to work with her for a while. A good, long while. In fact, if I were you, I'd do everything I could to become her apprentice. She clearly has a lot of horse knowledge - we should all be so lucky to have the opportunity to learn from someone like this!

Indeed, you show great maturity for someone who is 16. I certainly did not have such good sense. I know it was hard to read all of our responses. But you reacted to them in the best way possible, which gives you a pretty good chance of overcoming this! 

I hope you succeed. This has been a learning experience for you, and as you've probably already figured out, horsemanship is a life-long learning journey. But what a wonderful journey it is!


----------



## koda2004 (Sep 2, 2017)

Elltana, if it makes you feel any more hopeful I am only 14 and have been riding for two years. I started out with a mare very much like yours sounds. She is a 14 yr old mare that was unbroke when I got her, we had lots and lots of bad days and even bad months. She was a terrible bucker and always looking for ways to intimidate me she threw me many times onto the hard ground, but she is now somewhat ridable and I can ride her bareback too. I am the one that said in one of my earlier posts that I have been trying to halter break a stallion, he has certainly made sure I have plenty of bad days. just look for the light at the end of the tunnel. Good luck!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Not that it has anything to do with this thread but I often wonder. When the saying "Dumb as a Duck" came into use, were they referring to the ducks inability to talk? Used to be referring to someone as Deaf & Dumb meant they couldn't hear or speak, not that they were stupid.


I never heard that expression before, but then , I'm Canadian.!
We say,' dumber then a fence post' or hammer, and let the Ducks waddle on in their own form of intelligence which serves a duck!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Lilah said:


> How about "sharp as a bowling ball..." courtesy of Foghorn Leghorn.


 Again, difference in country of origin

We say, 'sharp as a pencil', assuming of course, that the pencil has been sharpened!


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Lilah said:


> How about "sharp as a bowling ball..." courtesy of Foghorn Leghorn.


LOL! Love me some Foghorn Leghorn! "I say, I say, BOOOOOY!".


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Since this thread has completely gone off the rails, I'll add my piece. Here, to express the fact that someone is of inferior intelligence, we say "C'est pas lui qu'a wiré les mouches à feu", an expression in an Acadian dialect that essentially means he's not the one who wired fireflies so they can light up. Acadians like irony and understatement. In English, we'll say "he's not the sharpest tool in the shed" but I assume that's a fairly well-known expression.


----------



## elltana (Jun 12, 2017)

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the responses on animal intelligence and ways of saying that someone is stupid.
To add to it, I rescued a lamb a few months ago and raised her myself, and I have to say she is incredibly stupid (but very sweet). So I recon that sheep with be up there as one of the most unintelligent animals. In Australia we call someone of a below average intelligence a drongo, well I do anyway.

Back on topic: Wilbur is really coming along with his ground work, we put the trailer in his paddock with some hay on the ramp and a little inside to start with, and first he was very frustrated with it (he would take a bite, squeal and gallop back to me) but it was good watching him sort it out himself. Now he is going fully inside the float by himself, it's amazing how simple methods can solve big problems! He is better in hand going on the float now too, still reluctant but we will get there.
In terms of his respect for me it's still pretty bad. I am being very tough on him, but he doesn't seem to learn from it or care. It's hard not to be disheartened, but I haven't had a session with the horsemanship lady yet because she is very busy, so hopefully after that we will be on the right track.
Because Wilbur is floating better I am taking him out to a dressage show this weekend, we are only doing a lower class, because Wilbur is still learning, but I am hoping it will be a good weekend. All I want is for us not to jump out of the arena!


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

elltana said:


> all i want is for us not to jump out of the arena!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

In some cases you have to use reverse psychology. 

A friend of mine had a heavyweight cob he was only 14.3 but absolutely solid. He was impossible to load and many had tried. Murphy always won. He injured several people. 
The trailer in the field was fine, he would load himself and stand there quite happily. It was if he was going somewhere get up early and ride to wherever! 

When his owner was away he came to me. I was determined to get him loading. I had the trailer in he middle of the yard, no partition and it had a front unload which I left open. 
I only had a lunge line and halter on Murphy. Led him to the ramp, he never even really looked just charged past the side. I ran behind him holding the line. He stopped across the other side of the yard. I went to his head, patted him, gave him a mint and led him back. 

It took many charges past and many packets of mints but in the end he looked at me as if to say, 'You're not going to fought me?' and walked in quietly. I led him straight through and immediate out to the field. Next day it was only a few charges past andt then he just walked in. Murphy was a horse that relished an argument, let it escalate and it became a battle.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You will have to learn how to be the dominant partner in your relationship with this horse without losing his trust, trust is essential to respect. 
You don't respect or trust a human leader in your life that bullies you, that's fear.
Using a whip isn't always the answer with horses that get aggressive when you don't know why they're doing it but if you feel that do need to use one to reprimand him then do it like you mean it. Constantly tapping at him is just irritating him, its nothing compared to what another horse would do to him if they got annoyed by his attitude.
I don't like hitting horses unless there's no other solution and the few times that I've had to resort too it they got whacked really hard with a sawn of broom handle and neither ever tried to kick or bite again


----------



## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I would put sheep pretty far down on the intelligence scale... good lord....


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There is a reason, there is a saying, 'follow like sheep to slaughter'
Now, lets not forget the various level of intelligence in birds!
Crows and Magpies are pretty bright. For instance,our dog food dish is often outside the back door. Magpies have learned to swoop in and eat it, at first sqauking loudly among themselves as they are apt to do. They soon learned that brought hubby out with a gun.
NOw, I can see them swooping in silently, under the 'radar'

Then there are chickens. As a child, I had to deal with their level of intellect!
First, were the young chickens we bought, who would rather pile up in a heap, on the floor,with some being smothered, rather then sit on the perches provided
Thus, part of the job for us kids, was to set those young chickens on the roosts
Very frustrating! For every 4 we set up, one or two would hop back down.
Then, there was the time it rained, when we were not home. Instead of filing one by one, up the ramp and through that chicken door, they would all try and get through that door at once, and thus we would find a jam of dead chickens at that door, when we got home.
Yea, chickens contribute to that derogatory,'bird brain" !


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I have to agree about the intelligence of sheep. 

You can bet that should horses and cattle get out they will wander off to find the smartest garden in a ten mile radius and hold a party. Sheep, if they get out, wander home. 

A lot does depend on how stock is handled. Maggie, a cow I had from a calf was treated like a horse and was much more intelligent than any other cow I have come across. 

Then there was Rachel, a premature lamb that was non viable, though she was and grew up indoors, nursed by my Border Terrier. She was never a sheep she was a dog sheep. House trained, would walk to heel and much preferred people to other sheep.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Animals do relate to how they are raised, what they grew up with,thus those often problematic orphan foals

Couldn't find the video from Youtube, that I wanted to post, but it showed a rabbit and a big dog, both indoors, with that rabbit chasing the dog off of the food dish, then eating, while dog sits back and watches.

Closest I could find






Obviously, who is the predator and who is the prey, is not part of their up bringing, with that rabbit most likely seeing himself as a dog


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

When I was very young we had a Labrador, a cat and a rabbit. 
The cat would chase the rabbit and the dog the cat and they would go round and round. When the rabbit got fed up she would lay stretched right out th cat would chew her ears and off they'd go again. When the rabbit was fed up she would reverse the chase. 

I had a Green Amazon parrot that was always free flying. He would go down the garden and sit on the wall calling local cats when he saw them. The moment the cats looked at him he would flap his wings. As the cat approached he would fly into his cage and with there calling the cat. When they got close pushing their head against the bars henwould bite their noses or ears, laugh as the cat yowled and announce "Got the beggar." 
Most cats in the area had tatty ears or parts of their nostrils missing.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Smart bird ! Did he talk?


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

He could talk really well but rarely did. 

I was in the living room reading when a neighbour's boy, who practically lived in my parents house, came in and called out, "Mrs A where are you?" 
Mum replied, "I'm in the bathroom."
"Can I come up or is it private?"
"You can come up I'm cleaning the bath."

Mum came down moments later and asked where Carl was. He then walked in. Mum asked him where he had gone to and he said he hadn't been in before. It was the bird. Mum and I would have sworn it was the child. 

He had a wonderful repertoire of coughs, laughs and farts.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

just testing


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Smilie said:


> just testing


I can see it.


----------



## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

I will put in my two cents.

I am from the english world, too. There is a common misconception among show riders, dressage and hunters and jumpers alike, that making a horse 100% broke will kill the fire inside of them and prevent them from performing a spectacular test. That is why a lot of the show horses are like race horses: unruly, rude, no ground manners, things are just made so they will be happy. They are given plenty of passes for the greater good, as all that matters is they get in the arena and win.

It is good that you want to do more than just show and win. It is good that you want a well trained horse. If you are of this traditional english mindset, I urge you to remove it from your knowledge, like i have. I still struggle with making excuses for my mare: "oh, she bucked after the jump, alright maybe she was just a little excited" "oh, she spooked at an oncoming car, she's just a little fresh" "oh, she's not responding to my legs, she hasn't had a long enough warm up and may just be feeling a bit pokey." There are a million stories and excuses. I know that it is common to whip a horse into a trailer but in the long run that does not train by willingness, but by fear.

Giving this horse ANY passes right now is a bad idea. Some will disagree with me, but only until he is as soft and stupid as your lamb can you ease up. Right now, he still wants to be the boss. Get physical if it demands it! Look at horses in a herd: they will break each other's legs if that's what the situation calls for! You can do nothing as severe as what another horse would do to them.

Think about bullies: what do bullies do? They pick on those smaller and weaker than them. This horse is a bully. Something tells me he is not truly dominant, or he would not feel the need to make his place so known with you through physical aggression. He is a coward, and is picking on you because he senses your meek and mildness, and you're not doing anything to stand up for yourself. This horse is going to teach you how to be assertive and not let the bullies win. Come on, you're a human and he's a horse! You're higher up than him on the food chain: act like it!

I love my horse more than words can describe but even though we are close, sometimes she forgets her manners and I have no problem smacking her wherever I must so she knows who's leading and who's following. It quickly sets her back but when I first had her she was a ground manners nightmare, and borderline dangerous. I had to find my inner fire. People say not to get angry around horses: this is true, but if a little rage is what it takes to send the message loud and clear, then you've got to channel your anger and frustrations into assertiveness, like a herd leader. They may be angry at a horse for disrespecting them, but the minute the punishment is rendered those feelings go immediately away. That is the secret, you let the emotions disappear as soon as the reprimand is made.


----------



## palogal (May 30, 2008)

There are several points of your post that scream YOU ARE OVER YOUR HEAD beginning with the title. 

1) He's BECOMING dangerous because you are allowing it. He seems to be an alpha type horse and needs badly to be put in his place AND KEPT there.

2)He NEEDS some of his spirit broken. Seriously, this horse needs to understand his place in the world and it is not above you. You either need to a) get a trainer that will do so or b) become much bigger to him with your body language, corrections and expectations. 

3) Biting - that is the most obvious signal that he is above you in the herd. It's a game to him and you are losing. If you put him in his place, this thought will not occur to him. He is BEGGING you to have a firmer hand with him, or find someone who does.

Pretty much, this horse needs is butt kicked and to be shown that his is not the king of anybody's castle. I own such a horse that came to me with similar behaviors. It took a long time of very consistent firm handling and specific expectations to teach him his place in the herd and his place with me. He's now a fat and sassy 22 year old that knows he is not to put his teeth on anyone, nor is he to push people around.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

@thecolorcoal

I have to take a bit of a different view of your use of the word "bully". It just gives a horse too much of an anthropomorphized perspective. Horse don't have the ability to have any sort of cruel planning, or actual desire to inflict suffering on another being, for their own amusement, such as a human bully might. They only want what they want, and without correct training, they are unable to put anything above their own drives.
that is all it is.

thinking of them in such human terms only helps the human have more fear, or more resentment than is often helpful.

Now, sometimes it takes for the human to get ANGRY to be willing to be as strong as it takes. I know it does for me. But, I also know that the very best horsemen never lose their tempers and yet affect incredible , firm, fair discipline that the horse recognizes with clarity, verses being oftimes baffled by a human that is at once timid, then goes ape and yells/hits.

All I'm saying is to catch yourself if you start ascribing human thinking / cunning, intention to horses. It will put you in a wrong frame of mind.


----------



## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

@tinyliny, sorry tiny, I was thinking in terms of a pasture bully, not a human to human bully. I know that horses have a pecking order, and the OP is part of the horse's herd of two, and she is the only thing left to be dominant over. I was not meaning to be anthropomorphic, just putting a horse/horse relationship in human terms  thanks for catching me!


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

You do get horses that are bullies, they might well be top of the pecking order but they constantly harass others way down in the pecking order just because they can. 

When a horse gets to challenging a human using his weight speed teeth and heels then thypey do need to be taken down a peg or three. They have learned that through hurting another horse by barging, kicking or biting, they go up a peg in the herd. 

When it comes to dealing with this sort of animal it takes skill and timing and more often than not a whip. With many the so called 'natural horsemanship' doesn't work. They have no respect at all for the softly softly approach. They would only go down in the herd pecking order if another horse was to hurt them as they hurt others. 

I like this video and backs my point. With this sort of animal you do not at from respect _- you demand it. _


----------



## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

^ this is an EXCELLENT video. OP, please watch this!


----------



## Phantomrose (Jul 25, 2016)

Nice video! OP, watch this when you can!


----------



## elltana (Jun 12, 2017)

I thank you all for the many responses again, and am here to give an update on our progress.
In regards to our dressage test, our first test was a bit of a disaster (as expected) and I found it quite humorous really, due to the mistakes we made I was able to fix things and we did a quite nice test for our second, and took out first place. 
I was happy with him, and he behaved himself.

The next week we went to the horsemanship lady's property, so she could do work with Wilbur and myself. I came home with a different horse!
Of course he tried things with me, but the lady was absolutely amazing, and he turned into a little kitten. We did a bit of everything, along with float training. He reared with me a bit (but no biting thank the lord), and eventually I could get him loading happily.

Since then I have done a lot with him, and he still tries things every now and again, however he is so much better than he was, and it's only upwards from here!

It's really amazing to see a dangerous horse turn into what he is now, he still has spunk but I am learning and fine tuning my skills with him everyday.

Today I helped my friend with her horse, a horse who has what I like to call has "quiet disrespect." He doesn't do anything naughty, but he doesn't fully respect my friend either. Of course this is a much easier case to deal with than Wilbur, but we did some work today, and I was surprised how he instantly respected me with a bit of tough love. I do think that I was able to be more assertive with my friends horse purely because he isn't aggressive, a lot smaller and a LOT less imposing than mine. But it pleased me to see what I can do, and am excited to put that to use with Wilbur. 

I know it probably seems now that Wilbur wasn't that bad in the beginning, but I have to remind all of you that he has hurt me, and hurt other people, so this is a massive turn around for him. 

In reference to the intelligence thing: I think an animal's upbringing is a very interesting factor. 
For example I have a rescued greyhound, he seems a lot (excuse the irony) 'slower' than other dogs I have owned, he has proved difficult to train. I have wondered that the reason for this is because in the first four years of his life, he has only been trained for racing, and has only known racing, his brain hasn't really been stimulated until he was adopted. 
In terms of my lamb, I recon (and like to think) that she would be a little smarter than sheep just out in a herd. At around 5:30 every evening she knows it's her dinner time, and with baa like crazy until she gets it, she is also best friends with my Jack Russell, who keeps life interesting for her. She knows exactly where her pellets are kept, and often tries to break into the feed room to get it.
Of course her stupid moments really overweight these, but she is wonderful for cuddles!

I did watch the video, it was very informative. Feed time is an interesting time for me and Wilbur, it is getting better though. I found it interesting that the horse's ears were pinned forward the whole time, when I move Wilbur away from me at feed time his ears are pinned back and he is super angry about it. (However I don't give him his feed until he wipes the sour expression off his face.) This is something that we will work on with the lady, so I am certain it will get better too.


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Glad to hear it is on its way to doing an about turn. 

Greyhounds, as with most sight hounds, have cotton wool for brains! They have basically two 'things' they care about, the first is that they can have a totally mad run at least once a day and the other is their home comfort, the sofa, bed or anywhere else they can curl up and sleep until it is time for their next run!


----------



## Phantomrose (Jul 25, 2016)

That is wonderful news to hear about the turn around! I hope to hear more on your progress with Wilbur. Things can start to look up from here.


----------



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> Glad to hear it is on its way to doing an about turn.
> 
> Greyhounds, as with most sight hounds, have cotton wool for brains! They have basically two 'things' they care about, the first is that they can have a totally mad run at least once a day and the other is their home comfort, the sofa, bed or anywhere else they can curl up and sleep until it is time for their next run!


Official term is called "Zoomies".


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think the reason the horse in the video has his ears forward is that he may not have EVER encountered this kind of behavior from humans before, so he is actually curious about it, even surprised, rather than threatened or affronted.

the man doesn't make idle threats, either.


----------



## elltana (Jun 12, 2017)

Foxhunter said:


> Glad to hear it is on its way to doing an about turn.
> 
> Greyhounds, as with most sight hounds, have cotton wool for brains! They have basically two 'things' they care about, the first is that they can have a totally mad run at least once a day and the other is their home comfort, the sofa, bed or anywhere else they can curl up and sleep until it is time for their next run!


Yes! He must be the laziest dog I have ever met in my life. He is very sweet, but I do like a more energetic dog that will keep me company around the farm. I luckily have a Jack Russell, whom is extremely clever and never leaves my side (except for when she sees a chicken)


----------



## thecolorcoal (Jan 28, 2015)

My horse used to pin her ears and try to bite me during feeding time. It was related to how she was treated at her last home. As she began to trust and respect me that completely went away, and now she will wait patiently while I set the feed bowl down, and wait until I am completely gone from the stall before going to eat. She will also remove herself if she's eating and i take the food away for some reason. She knows there is always something to eat and that she doesn't have to be anxious in believing a human will starve her. Such might be the case with Wilbur. If he was at a show barn with a strict feed schedule he may have become extremely hungry and protective of his food. As he learns you will not starve him and take food away, he will begin to trust you, too. But it also starts at groundwork. You must realize that bad behavior is, more often than not, man-made. He is a reflection of how he was treated. But bad behavior is not the result of abuse, necessarily, the way aggression is with dogs. Bad behavior with horses is equivalent to a spoiled child, and I am sure you have seen MANY of those at the shows. Wilbur is just a spoiled brat who got away with a lot, and now his world is being turned upside down because a human is actually saying "NO" and that is going to take a while for him to accept.


----------



## PunchnMe (Jan 1, 2018)

How big is his paddock? And what shape?


----------



## elltana (Jun 12, 2017)

He has a decent size paddock with lots of grass - we only have a 5 acre property so they can't go out in massive paddocks, but they have enough room to have a decent gallop. They are usually rectangular, however we rotate them and Wilbur generally spends his time in a large rectangular paddock connected to the paddock that goes around my house, so it is an irregular shape. Over all he has access to the length of our property! This gives him an opportunity to keep his mind busy, something that makes him happier.
He spends his day in there, and at night we put our horses in large stables so the grass gets a break. He is always very happy to go in the stables, and he gets a lot of hay in there.


----------



## ChasingDreams (Nov 14, 2017)

tinyliny said:


> I think the reason the horse in the video has his ears forward is that he may not have EVER encountered this kind of behavior from humans before, so he is actually curious about it, even surprised, rather than threatened or affronted.
> 
> the man doesn't make idle threats, either.



Yes! I agree with this.

I think the ear-pinning with Wilber is still a little protest on his part. Like, "I'll move because you made me, but I'm not happy about it so I'm going to make faces still and try to intimidate you!"

My guy was never aggressive at feed time, but he would try to push into my space and put his ears back if I didn't give him his food right away. I got very intentional about sending him away making him wait patiently before he got even a sniff of the feed pail (using a dressage whip) This is him at feed time now:






He still moves his head towards me and gets curious about what's in the pail (he knows what it is) but his feet don't move until I leave the stall. And his ears stay forward now, no mean faces. If he would move his head towards me in an aggressive manner, or try to step towards me while I'm waiting...I'll correct him and make him wait a bit longer. He figured out pretty quickly that behaving gets him food faster 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> ...
> 
> I like this video and backs my point. With this sort of animal you do not at from respect _- you demand it. _
> 
> https://youtu.be/xfFxYgY_5g0


I hope this isn't a thread hijack, but regarding this video... the trainer says that behavior at feed time is crucial and that horses should never "invade" (I think he said) the gate. 

Ig got me wondering what specific behaviors people do expect from their horses when they enter the paddock/stall and deliver the feed.

Curious, because my guy greets me at the gate, follows me into his stall, and waits with his nose in this feeder as I dump the food. 

So what do other horses/owners do?


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Captain Evil said:


> I hope this isn't a thread hijack, but regarding this video... the trainer says that behavior at feed time is crucial and that horses should never "invade" (I think he said) the gate.
> 
> Ig got me wondering what specific behaviors people do expect from their horses when they enter the paddock/stall and deliver the feed.
> 
> ...


I think it depends largely on circumstance and the horse and your relationship with the horse, be it the gate or at the trough.

I didn't even realize the importance of not allowing them to crowd or kick up a kerfluffle at the trough until someone here pointed out our oldest gelding might be getting bold and flat out rude and dangerous because, in part, I was dumping the feed and getting the heck out of the way. He saw it as him running a low horse off the feed. I had to correct his way of thinking - I will NOT be bullied by a greedy 1200 lb toddler with hooves.

Trigger, OTOH, greets me and waits on me at feed time, as does Sally, but they don't rush the gate - and I usually duck between the strands of horse wire while they stand back and wait on me, but they stay about arm's length away, trot and play and squabble a little. They don't push or crowd me so I feel threatened. Trigger is even very delicate on accepting snacks. He takes the most polite, daintiest, tiniest bites. Its insane how respectful he is with people and food, but he is the very lowest of the low horses - so maybe that's why he's so polite. IDK. 

Sally backs her ears, but she's aiming at Trigger, not me. She's also a very heavily pregnant mare, so as long as she's not threatening me or being over the top aggressive with Trigger, she doesn't get in a lot of trouble. She gives me my space, she moves when I tell her to - we're okay.

The other four... in another pasture, are a whole other story. If I don't remind them daily, they will all crowd the gate so tight you can't safely walk through it. So. I have to take a horse whacker, either a short snow shovel handle (its about 3 ft long, has a factory tapered end and makes a great horse poker - I push it into their chest just enough to make them move, just to remind them to all stay back), or now I have an old saltwater fishing pole with no eyes and a nice foam handle. Its real thick, and the top 2/3ds is missing (it was jointed, so the end is smooth, not broken off), and I will threaten and bully them until they give me sufficient space to clear the gate. When I walk toward the trough, I sshhh and puff up when they follow too close or try to sneaky-reach for the bucket. I've even done the whole guarding the trough and not letting them come in until I'm ready to 'allow it' thing. They don't like it, they mill around a safe distance away and jockey for a good position - but they don't crowd and they don't kick one another any more.


----------



## twixy79 (Jul 8, 2017)

When we first got Duke we realized he had NO manners. He has no manners with horses. No manners with humans. We thought he would be far more difficult then he turned out to be. For feed time, we make him wait outside his stall until the food in his "dish" and I am safely out of hooves/harms way. The same with Loretta. I don't just dump the feed over the wall like the BO does. Duke does "tell" me when he is ready to eat though. He will stand up against the stall wall and wave his head about like a loon while I laugh and tell him to back up and wait. Loretta is a little less obvious, she just stands there, eyes focused on the grain bin. Once I walk over to it, they both exit their stalls and wait. It was super easy to train this behavior because they are so food motivated. 

Training Duke to give space when I am working with Loretta took a bit more time and work. We started off by distracting him with treats at the far end of the pasture. We eventually moved in closer and closer until we were able to just distract him with a verbal queue. Now, we tell him to aspecht and he goes off. Aspecht in my family (not sure if that is how it is spelled, because it was never written, always yelled) basically means back off. My farrier gets a kick out of my amish horse being trained in yiddish and italian slang.


----------



## Kristopher (Jan 30, 2018)

I would like to agree with most. I am going to skip right to your starting thread. Sounds to me like your horse has no respect for you. And your not being assertive enough. You will have to go back to ground work. And if the wip is not working for you, your probably not using it correctly or emphasizing it with your body language. Even when we would train a horse that someone brought to us and was broke. We would go back to 4 days ground work and would make a huge difference. Teach if respect and make sure he knows your the alpha. If your not confident in your horsemanship he will pick up on it. If your worried about getting hurt hire professional help. It’s not his fault for being a horse. ( studied Anderson, Cox, and Trocha, for 6 years and applied it to horses for years). All the best to you and your horse. Happy trails!,


----------



## elltana (Jun 12, 2017)

Update time for you all that are still reading!

Wilbur is making strides in his ridden work, we had a competition last weekend and we placed in both the tests, and won the overall leaderboard for our class (from the last couple of competitions too).
I am proud of him in that aspect and I can feel that he is going to be a real threat to those Pre St. George competitors some day!
The real victory this weekend was the fact that he got on the float though . 

We went through a bit of a tough patch recently, he was going so well and then one day he literally decided he didn't want to go home. We were out at another persons (very lovely) property for a lesson with a well regarded coach, and he just wouldn't go on. I honestly feared for my safety a couple times, I know all about standing your ground and being the boss but when you have a 600 Kg animal charging at you it's not easy. 
We finally got him on with a little help from the lady who owned the property, but it was very disappointing as he was going on without any fuss at all a couple of days before. We tried the next day to take him out again to my dressage club but he wasn't going on, so we immediately got help the same day from Jacinta my horsemanship guru and of course the little ****** goes right on the float without any fuss. I know at this point that there is still a factor of Wilbur not respecting me, and Jacinta just oozes confidence around horses - I mean she has been doing this sort of thing for decades! We did liberty with him instead and found that we really have a knack for it, it was a lot of fun and in a couple of instances when Jacinta tried to do liberty work herself with him he would run off to me and want to follow me around instead. This was very flattering and I felt a little less peeved at him. 
So the next weekend we decided to take Wilbur to Jacinta's place, the darn horse wouldn't want to go on again for the life of me. We called up Jacinta to come help us and naturally Wilbur goes right onto the float as soon as I put the phone down! 
Again, the next day he doesn't want to go on the float and even when I faked calling Jacinta (and then actually called her) he wouldn't go on. Jacinta arrives to help and he goes on almost straight away again. At this point it's not humorous and instead darn annoying - I know the confidence Jacinta has and the security she gives me is a major factor in what makes Wilbur go on when she is around.
Again I learned a lot from that, it turns out that the tougher approach I was taking with Wilbur was just making him offended and aggressive, but when I am too soft he takes the mickey and still doesn't go on. I am still trying to find a medium of asking very nicely and not loosing my patience and not being too soft as well. So I end up giving him lots of pats and good boys when he comes on a little, and then giving him a sharp tap with the whip once when he starts to pull my leg. It is working so far, but knowing Wilbur he is too clever to give into one method, so this weekend we will be doing more work with Jacinta to refine it. I know y'all repeatedly say on here that I need to be tougher on him, and you are absolutely right I did. But right now I can't, it's hard to explain unless you watch him, but he completely glazes over and unless you convince him that going on the float is the best thing for him, and that he is making that decision and you aren't forcing him, that horse will not go on. I have had trainers come in with the tough method and work him for hours and hours and hours and Wilbur just becomes aggressive, that's it. 
Even though this whole ordeal has been the most tiring and frustrating horse thing I've had to deal with, It's really reinforced to me that every horse is different and if you are going through this too not just one method works on every horse. Sometimes you need to be tough, sometimes you need to be gentle and soft , sometimes you need a mixture of the two. It's an ongoing battle with this horse, he is like a constantly hormonal mare, but I am really starting to love this guy like my own child. 

If you have any more questions or concerns with what i've written please ask, I wrote this half asleep so forgive me if it isn't eloquent or well put together. 
xxx


----------



## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

You will get there with his loading! 
You know that it is a matter of confidence which you are lacking but as time goes by it will come. 

Many years ago a woman had two ponies which were bad to load. She had refused help going home from a show. Finally she accepted my and another persons help. 

At shows she would come find me when it was time for her to go home. One day she called out and I replied, on hearing my voice both ponies practically dragged the children holding them into the trailer even though I was a good distance away!


----------



## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

Glad to hear you are making good progress!!

We also had a hard-to-load horse who would load easily with his former owners. In fact, when we tried him, they had my 10 year old daughter load him on their trailer just to show us how easy it was. But when we brought him home and tried to load him on a different trailer, it was a no-go. I spent 4 hours trying to convince him to load "gently" one day. You know, the no-forcing-him method, where you reward for every step forward. He's a greedy ****** for treats, so I thought for sure we could do this. Nope. He was absolutely not getting on. We were no further ahead after four hours than when we started. So I changed my technique. 

We went with the lunge line behind the butt trick. He began evading that by going sideways off the ramp at the last minute, which made me nervous as heck because I was just waiting for him to deglove his leg on the metal edge of that ramp. We started parking the trailer against a fence (he was always going sideways on one side), but one day, he rammed against the fence and shocked himself, so jumped off the ramp again on the other side. The whole time, my daughter (then 10) is trying to lead him on while I come up the back. I am not happy with how things are going, and do not feel this is a safe situation for my daughter, but there was no one around my place to help. We could load him, but it was a huge ordeal every time, and he was so worked up by the time he got in, he was in a lather. 

So finally, we loaded at her coach's barn one day, and when she saw the disaster unfolding, she came right over and started barking orders. First, she tried to just lead him in, but he refused. Then she told me to bring the lunge line around his butt, and he did his sideways jump off the ramp thing again. So she had two other people come over, and make a box around him. She placed herself on the side where he was jumping off the ramp and waited for him to make his move. My daughter was at his head, leading him. On cue, she asked him to come on. When he refused, I put the lunge line on his butt and pulled it tight, and when he tried to jump sideways, the coach popped him hard in the ribs with her fist. He got on. And every time again after that. We now have no issues loading him in about a minute. 

What I do now, is that I ask nicely (daughter leads him in, gives him a treat when he's in), then ask firmly (lunge line comes out - it's always tied to the side of the trailer in case we need it, but now, he only has to see it and he goes in). He doesn't fight it anymore, and most times, my daughter can just walk him in. 

Bottom line: even a horse that is perfectly trained to load figures out when he has a new person handling him and will test new, less experienced people EVERY TIME. Keep it up. You'll get there eventually. I never thought we would, but now people look at us at shows and admire how well our horse loads.


----------



## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Do you think that you go from being too nice to getting emotional and getting tough? I think the confidence comes from being tough when you need to be but not getting frustrated, angry or upset. It is what it is and that is how horses treat each other. A correction and then no harm no foul.


----------



## elltana (Jun 12, 2017)

Yes I completely agree if you get emotional or frustrated with the horse everything falls apart. I definitely used to get upset with him - mostly out of fear - but for the last couple of months I rarely do, and in those cases where I do get frustrated simply out of exhaustion I will hand him over to another capable person for a while, while I have a break.
I try to be as relaxed and calm about the situation as I can, and I always make sure we have at least 45 mins to an hour spare to load him when I am going somewhere so we aren't panicking under time restraints.
I believe there is an invisible lack of confidence that I may not particularly notice, but he can sense. That confidence will just come with time and experience with him


----------



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Great that Wilbur is doing so well! If I may make one more suggestion?

Once he is on the trailer, give him some grain and wait a bit before driving off. Make sure he finishes it completely before you even start the engine. 

Similar to the way he learnt to load himself to get the food. Approach loading just like feeding time, he is just going "in the stall".


----------



## m.of.bmbaf (Apr 8, 2018)

I experienced the same same thing. 

Your horse is probably both scared and angry. If you want trust then you should cut out fear and use anger. If he is trying to bite you get a whip and swing it over the ground next to him or lift it harshly in the air, if you have no whip you can use rope. If you repeat it all the time when he tries to get in your space, bite you, run over you...etc. He will catch that you wont hurt him but he will really be mad. Its easier to earn the trust of a angry horse then scared. 

For me it worked for only one day. 

When he no longer fears you but still does not want to cooperate, correct him and leave to another side of the paddock. Sit / kneel there and wait for him to come, once he does easily pat him and whisper to him.

Above I gave you way of breaking a horse 

And there is a difference between breaking a horse and gently breaking a horse. Gently breaking the horse is a way of the horse whisperer.

All you have to do is correct him by using 3 seconds to grab his attention and make noise, then after when he stops whisper to him short words like 'Easy, boy' or ''Its alright / okay'. That is a gentle way but still you are showing him, safety, comfort, affection and proving your self as a leader towards him. But gently.

This works with aggressive horses, the best way to help abused horses or wild. You should give it a try rather then breaking them in harshly. Trust me, it works. 

I experienced the same horse, he is old and was always wild. When I started working with him, he ran over everyone (tried to), he was biting and trying to bite, pushing everyone away, entering their space. But it took me about half a year or more to get such a bond where he would do anything for me, now he follows me everywhere and would even break the fence to come to me. Thats what is called the bond, but there is a lot more for both of us.

I wish you luck with your horse and true bond.


----------



## elltana (Jun 12, 2017)

Hey all, I got a lot of support on this post so I thought I might give you all one last update on Mr. Wilbur if any of you are still watching 🙂. Wilbur sure has taught me a lot, I thought I knew stuff when I brought him and now I know I barely knew anything about handling horses (and I still have a lot more to learn), he has taught me patience and graditude and how to be a teacher. I can’t say he’s a perfect little angel, he’s not a robot and he still bucks and has his moments where he won’t get on the float, but I can deal with it without breaking a sweat or shedding a tear. I can safely say he’s the best behaved most polite horse on our property now (and the others are all very quiet) and he loves giving me cuddles and kisses, I can see he trusts me fully and we have a lot of love for each other. Yes I still have a mark on my back from a bite almost 9 months ago and he still tests me all the time and keeps me on my toes. I’ve wanted to give up on him so many times and it’s not all roses and galloping through fields bareback (I cracked my sacrum last time I tried to ride him bareback - he thought it was weird and I went flying), but out of all the trials he’s made me strong and patient and kind and soft and firm I don’t let him get away with anything and he reacts to my mistakes and I learn from them. It’s maybe not always the most harmonious relationship but I feel so truely connected with this horse and I know he loves me and I love him with all my heart - the little twit. 
This is my last update because I know it will always be up and down with him but I feel as though we are on the right path - he respects me now (most of the time) and I feel like that’s something we won’t lose anytime soon (fingers crossed). 
I guess for anyone who is struggling with their horse, do what feels right to you. It never felt right to me to sell Wilbur because I didn’t want him to be with anyone else, but it’s brave to know when to give up - or save your energy for another. 
I’d like to thank you all for your support over the last few years, I’ve had a very wide range of reposes but all came from a place of care and I’m grateful for that. 
It’s a long road and it’ll keep on winding and dipping and there’s a lot more hills but for now I think the storm is passed and Wilbur sure is a sweet boy now. Feel free to ask any questions but I think that’s a wrap on my ‘dangerous’ horse for now haha 🙂


----------

