# Western riding looks strange



## Leesey (Aug 2, 2014)

Strange, according to how I was trained to ride as a youth in 4-H. I was taught to hold both reins in my left hand, my right hand on my thigh. We were to sit in a relaxed but straight position, allowing the hips to rock gently in unison with the horse's movements. 
I returned to riding in recent years and then moved to Arizona where one would assume cowgirls reign! However, people are riding straight, stiff, reins held separately and low and it looks like English-style riding to me. And I personally think it looks pretentious and funny....but please correct my amateurish opinions if I'm wrong.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I'm thinking you just ran into an unusual bunch as I have several ranching friends who ride in a functional manner. 

BTW, English riding doesn't promote what you describe either. Other that most often direct reining, it too, has riders moving with the horses and all that.


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## SummerShy (Aug 3, 2014)

Leesey, I see a lot of what you see. And I was taught how you were taught.

What's more, I was just talking to a fellow horse buddy recently about how all of the 'cowboys' down here ride with their reins so tight their horses heads are always jacked up super high. Their heels are down so far it pushes them out of the saddle to compensate their horses jigging - because their heads are jerking all over the place!

Not sure who is teaching these people to ride.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

boots said:


> I'm thinking you just ran into an unusual bunch as I have several ranching friends in Arizonawho ride in a functional manner.
> 
> BTW, English riding doesn't promote what you describe either. Other that most often direct reining, it too, has riders moving with the horses and all that.


I left out a teeny detail.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Can't say I've seen what you've seen in my neck of the desert.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

There are a great variety of riding styles used by riders using both "Western" and "English" saddles. These styles vary among those showing in various disciplines. Riding styles may vary even more among riders who do not show. Sometimes, these styles seem to vary in different regions of the country. However, even within the same region you will find variations.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Actually, what you describe sounds to me an awful lot like how a lot of WP horses are "trained". Those riders are generally really braced against the stirrups and have their arms stick/straight with their hands down close to their knees, similar to this


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## DreaMy (Jul 1, 2014)

Haven't seen this except for as smrobs said, in WP horses in a _snaffle_. Can't say its my cup of tea, which is why I don't touch most the wp barns around here with a ten foot pole

I'm in AZ too


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

SummerShy said:


> Not sure who is teaching these people to ride.


Random people on the internet, because people don't see the value in actually paying to learn anymore. A couple of hours on YouTube, and join a forum or two, and you are good to go.


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## Leesey (Aug 2, 2014)

I see what you're saying, Boots. No one should be stiff, right? TX, so there aren't universal guidelines that determine those styles? Smrobs, the guy in the video is really leaning back, isn't he? 
Maybe I need to start watching YouTube videos, ya'll! ;-)
I have a short video clip of a trainer on my horse, trying to gauge what her strengths and weaknesses are. Also a picture of her with a previous owner; both are good examples of what I'm talking about. It might be helpful to put them on here but I don't know how...plus I can't show their faces on a public forum--very bad form!
I don't want to be critical and when I re-read my original post I sound smug. I really just want to learn, and my experience is very limited, so thanks to you all for your help. 
So, what about posting? I never learned that either and it feels very foreign to me, but I see the people on the ranch where I have my horse being taught to post. I'm sure it must be more comfortable for the horse to not have my big 'ol rear bouncing on her back! But again, I always associated it with English riding.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

smrobs said:


> Actually, what you describe sounds to me an awful lot like how a lot of WP horses are "trained".


Yep, that was my first thought as well. I've seen that at shows in the warmup pen with WP riders regardless of the bit they are in. that's about the only place I've seen people ride that way.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Posting & Western: there was a thread here a few years back asking which western riders posted. From the results, it seemed very regional - in some places, most folks were shocked at the idea, while in others everyone posted western. 

FWIW, my first lessons were from an old cowboy in Utah, and he taught posting...said the trot was the horse's most useful gait because it got you where you needed going with a horse who was still ready to work, and posting would save its back some wear & tear. I didn't ride much for 30 years after that. When I took some lessons here, posting was just not done. I also find some western saddles make it hard to do well, and others are no problem.

The lady who gave my daughter lessons came from a barrel racing background, and she taught posting.

I started English and wandered west, so I feel free to use two-point in my western saddle...:shock:


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## Leesey (Aug 2, 2014)

I uploaded a picture--at least I thought I did.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I have seen a lot of the two handed riding, not sitting as stiff, Posting western done a lot here, especially in cattle work, not so much for trails, the hands are used n conjuction with leg cues.
The you tube clip, well it just goes to show what any one can post , and what some people call training. The one handed rein held like an ice cream cone, with the hand on the thigh was how it used to be for the western pleasure classes. I have not been to a horse show in years.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

I train my youngster two-handed in a snaffle and post the bigger trot. I guess I must look very strange to some people?


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

oh vair oh said:


> I train my youngster two-handed in a snaffle ...


Since the snaffle bit is designed to be a "two-handed" bit, you'd only look funny to those who don't know that. Yep, a snaffle is "properly" ridden two handed as it is a lateral/direct rein bit.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Leesey said:


> So, what about posting? I never learned that either and it feels very foreign to me, but I see the people on the ranch where I have my horse being taught to post. I'm sure it must be more comfortable for the horse to not have my big 'ol rear bouncing on her back! But again, I always associated it with English riding.


The first book I ever read on horsemanship was "Training For Western Horse and Rider" written by J'Wayne "Mac" McArthur who taught Wester Horsemanship at Utah State University and first published in 1976. He wrote that he didn't understand why posting was not allowed in Western showing since cowboys did it all the time. McArthur described posting as a "rocking on the crotch" which is probably a better way of doing it than the deep knee bends one often sees.

Done properly, posting can be easier on a horse's back -- especially young horses -- and easier for the rider. Done poorly, it can be worse.

When posting, the rider should allow the horse to propel his seat out of the saddle rather than attempting to stand in the stirrups or, even worse, pull himself out of the saddle with the reins. If the horse isn't trotting with enough energy to do this, the rider should either sit or ask for more impulsion. While posting, the rider may consciously pull his hips forward to stay with the forward motion of the horse. Emphasizing the movement while rising or inhibitting this same motion can influence how the horse trots.

While it is good for a rider to know how to do a rising trot, rider's should also learn to sit well while trotting. If a rider sits well while trotting, he has greater contact with the horse and, subsequently, greater influence on the horse's movements. To sit a trot well, the rider must be balanced and relaxed. Any unnecessary tension in the rider will cause bouncing which adversely effects both horse and rider.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Lol, Gibbs has a great western jog that I can sit to comfortably, now I have actually got him trotting with more impulsion he is much harder to sit!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Stiffness in the saddle and hanging on to a horses head usually = a nervous novice rider


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## Leesey (Aug 2, 2014)

Oh vair oh, I doubt that! I'm apparently the goof, bouncing around like popping corn! 
TX, thanks for the good information. I can't do the standing post anyhow--2 knee replacements recently--but that's what I'm seeing so I thought I needed to do it too. Would need to join a gym and work out my legs! I would love to see the rocking crotch thing. Any way you can post a video of yourself doing a proper post? ;-)


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## Leesey (Aug 2, 2014)

Oops, "rising" post. And now I need to see the proper sitting trot too.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Among working western riders (trainers, working cowboys, etc), posting or doing a rising trot is very common. Makes covering miles at a long trot much easier on you and on the horse. IMHO, a person should know how to do both the rising and sitting trot.

And OVO, I've seen pictures of you on a horse :wink:. Nothing at all like I'm picturing from the OP's description.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I am probably one of the weird, two handed western riders in Arizona.

What's funny is I actually started out neck reining for about the first 12 years or so. They a friend taught me how to ride two handed as she said it offered more fine control of the horse. And you know what, it did! 

With my green horse, I probably ride two handed about 75% of the time. Especially anytime he is looking at things to spook at or if we are moving out faster than a walk. I usually end up neck reining towards the end of the ride when he is nice and relaxed and we are just walking home. 

I also had (have?) horrible hand position riding two handed and tend to pull my reins outward. What was really helpful is that I attended a clinic and instructor was like "belly button, belly button" meaning I need to pull my reins towards my belly button instead of outward.

So yeah, I am probably one of the weirdo Arizona riders. But I started out neck reining, honest. :lol:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Leesey said:


> I uploaded a picture--at least I thought I did.


That girl is more than likely self-taught. Which isn't a bad thing, necessarily (hell, I'm self-taught). Her stirrups appear WAY too short (common around here) and she appears to be just imitating what she thinks she's seen.

I grew up in Arizona. Most of the riders I know (and have known) are self-taught. I've seen some not-half-bad self-taught riders and I've seen some that are so stiff and bouncy that it's a wonder their poor horse hasn't bucked them off.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> That girl is more than likely self-taught. Which isn't a bad thing, necessarily (hell, I'm self-taught). Her stirrups appear WAY too short (common around here) and she appears to be just imitating what she thinks she's seen.
> 
> I grew up in Arizona. Most of the riders I know (and have known) are self-taught. I've seen some not-half-bad self-taught riders and I've seen some that are so stiff and bouncy that it's a wonder their poor horse hasn't bucked them off.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess I should have mentioned I'm self taught too. 

Here is what I look like neck reining and two-handing it. I do well most of the time, I've been riding for close to 20 years, but I am always surprised just how bad I look in pictures. :shock:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

if the horse is trained well to neck rein, then it looks great. but, I see a lot of folks neck reining a horse , whether the hrose is listening and responding or not. the horse is stiff and braced and ignoreing the touch of the rein on his neck. at that point, is when direct reining needs to come into play. but, you can't direct rein very well in a shanked bit. not as well as you can in a snaffle that allows the sidepiece to swing freely out to the side and allows individual communication with only one side of the mouth.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If the shanked bit looks like this, then direct reining works fine:










With an opening rein, it looks like this:










I ride two-handed often enough with a curb bit because Mia responds extremely well to an opening rein - just move the left rein a few inches left, and her head quickly follows with no pressure other than the weight of the rein. It is rare for her to ignore that cue. Her neck reining depends on the type of reins - she does it pretty good with leather, but not well at all with rope.

A common neck reining error I was guilty of until an instructor shouted it out of me was moving the hand far enough across the withers to actually pull the horse's outside lip...which confuses the horse...should he follow the pressure on his neck, or the pull on his mouth? :?

This would be an example of my bad technique in action, and you can see Mia isn't responding...because I've ham-fisted things into conflicting cues. I'm trying to press the rein hard enough into her neck for her to feel the rope, but that also pulls that side of the bit - particularly with shanks! A total screw up by me!


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

Leesey said:


> Oh vair oh, I doubt that! I'm apparently the goof, bouncing around like popping corn!
> TX, thanks for the good information. I can't do the standing post anyhow--2 knee replacements recently--but that's what I'm seeing so I thought I needed to do it too. Would need to join a gym and work out my legs! I would love to see the rocking crotch thing. Any way you can post a video of yourself doing a proper post? ;-)


I don't have any videos of myself. If I did I probably wouldn't like them anyway. I'm much more critical of myself than I am of my students.

I did a quick internet search looking for videos on trotting. As with most internet searches, you have to wade through a lot to get a little. Here are some links which you might find useful:

Will Faerber on rising trot:






Richard Winters on rising trot (in Western saddle). To see this one, you must click the link:

https://www.spalding-labs.com/community/julie_goodnight/w/faq/default.aspx#!745_Video

Sitting the Trot with Gilbert Gonzales:






Basic of sitting the trot:






I liked the video on the sitting trot by Gilbert Gonzales. I like his emphasis on relaxing the muscles in the legs and following the motion of the horse. I wish he had pointed out the importance of relaxing the muscles in the crotch as well. In "Anatomy of Dressage", two medical doctors write about riding from a human anatomical perspective. They mention how riders tend to tighten the crotch muscles in an effort to absorb the impact of the trot. Tightening these muscles, however, raises the rider's center of gravity and make the rider less stable. On the other hand, relaxing the muscles of the crotch allows the seat to sink deeply into the saddle for a lower center or gravity and more stability. Relaxed legs allow the rider to drop when the horse's back drops. On a particularly bouncy horse, putting a little weight in the stirrups can lighten the rider's seat but it is still very important to keep the hip, knee, and ankle joints flexible so the legs can act as shock absorbers.

In most of the rising trot videos, the riders seem to be rising higher than necessary. Of course, the energy of the horse can be a factor in this. Otherwise, the distance the rider's seat rises is of little importance. Rising an eighth of an inch takes the weight off of the seat just as much as rising three or four inches and the rider has less of a decent to control. When "rocking on the crotch", the rider would still be taking the weight out of the saddle, but not showing any daylight between his seat and the saddle.


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## Aes77 (Aug 6, 2014)

My horse will neck rein nicely regardless of bit, heck she neck reins in a halter and lead shank. However I still ride her two handed a lot of the time and I ride her English 50% of the time. You won't see a competetive cattle penner riding with one hand, sometimes you need the refinement of two reins. In Western riding there is always a reason to ride both ways. And yes, in the show ring you never post a trot/jog western but when you are actually out on the trail and moving uncollected trying to cover ground you almost always post.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

oh vair oh said:


> I train my youngster two-handed in a snaffle and post the bigger trot. I guess I must look very strange to some people?


I was thinking the same thing about myself OhVairOh!

My colt has a big flowing stride when he gets moving at the trot. It is easiest to post. While he is picking up on his neck reining well, I still hold the reins with two hands in case I need to reinforce with a direct rein.




tinyliny said:


> *you can't direct rein very well in a shanked bit.* not as well as you can in a snaffle that allows the sidepiece to swing freely out to the side and allows individual communication with only one side of the mouth.


The part I bolded is what I would call an "incomplete" statement. 

There are certain shank (curb) bits that should not be used for direct reining. And there are others that are perfectly fine. 

I run my barrel horse in a Jr. Cowhorse Bit like this one. There is complete independent movement of each shank because of the small gag action and the dogbone center. 










And we direct rein.











Whereas with a curb bit like this one, you would NOT want to direct rein with because the curb is one solid entire piece and you will affect the other side of the bit.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Unfortunately, most horses who are pleasure ridden have mediocre neck reining at most, so sometimes riding with 2 hands is the only way to get the horse to turn properly (if they can turn properly at all). When training, even after I move my horses up to a curb bit, I sometimes will pick up direct reining with both hands, especially if I'm doing something that requires a bit more finesse than anything I've asked them to do before. For example, working cattle: Even a moment's hesitation due to confusion on the horse's part can cause a lot of work to go right out the window and make you have to start all over with the cattle.

During instances like that, I'll often do a combo type of reining. That means that I have my reins in both hands as you would ride in a snaffle, but I use my outside hand and neck rein 99% of the time while keeping my inside hand static. The only reason it is even holding a rein is so that I will be prepared to give direct rein guidance if the horse feels even a tiny bit sticky. Doing that saves time where I don't have to reach down and pick up a rein...I'm already good to go for whatever comes up


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