# My plans



## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Hmm. I think SUJ, from reading your previous posts, you are a fan of Haflingers. Why are you considering breeding to this paricular stallion? I have never yet seen a good conformation shot of him or his pedigree and he's (unfortunately) well known in the breed for pretty much only producing crossbred foals. 

If you are definitely wanting to cross breed, then there are plenty of really good quality Gypsies who have proven their worth, in your area. Whether or not they'd cross breed of course, is another story. 

What do you hope to gain with this breeding? Why this particular stallion? 

Lizzie


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Because I know the temperament of his foals and have seen what he produces. I have also considered a few others but I am drawn back to Leo. I have considered the other stallion they have on their property, Bold Breck, and think that the match wouldn't compliment my mare as well as Lively Leo. His neck isn't put together as well and he does not throw color. Which isn't a MAIN concern of mine but it would be nice to have something that has color in case I have to ever sell. (Which I do not plan to do). I see the foal as being a key of sorts into registrable showing of the Vanner horse, as although I do love Haflingers I do like Vanners as well. Their gentle personality and flashy looks are hard to ignore. I also have been keeping an eye on Latcho Zor but haven't seen what he can produce and I'm not sure if they would cross to a Haflinger. BUT his owners do live closer to me and I have been tempted to e-mail them asking for an onsite visit of their facilities and if they would. 

I want to maintain the temperament of the Haflinger and/or Vanner while having more feather, mane and tail than a Haflinger but stick with a drafty build. I'd like to use the foal for showing and cart. 

This is still pretty much on the I'm not 100% sure side but I have been dreaming of it and planning it all for two years. I've done my homework, read the books, seen live births, know the costs and have the space (including a larger foaling stall). So actually buying a foal or breeding for one would be a dream come true to me. 

The only reasons I have not scheduled my mare for breeding is because breeding right now is kind of taboo and I want the financial back bone in case anything happens. 

Lively Leo is out of Vine's Head and Ears and Lake Ridge Gypsy Love. He is a grandson of The Buck Horse and The Lottery Horse. 

Bold Breck








His first foal









Latcho Zor


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Is there a good conformation shot of your mare available to us? 

Honestly, while a stallion might produce nice offspring, the end result with your mare will certainly be, at least partly, effected by her. 

My next question is what do you want to do with the foal? That would be a major factor in whether this stallion is going to produce what you'd like. 

If you're in communication with the owners, could you get your hands on conformation shot (or 4) of him? You can't just look at the offspring he produces, because, as I just mentioned, the mare has something to do with that as well. To have an "idea" of what is coming from him and what comes from the mare, a shot of each of the mares he's been bred to would really help, along with good photos of the foals.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I have been to see one of his foals and his owners have offered for me to come to their farm to see Lively Leo in person. Unfortunately I got lost trying to find their place when I tried to go there. I am planning to try again in February next year. Not just for seeing Lively Leo but also viewing the mares and foals that she has for sale at that time and talking over a few issues that I have. 

This is when I first bought her (not my place)








Again not my place
















Just to show her build and feathering


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Just a point to note SUJ, the second stallion _can_ throw colour. Even a stallion who is HZ for a white pattern might not throw colour, there is lots going on that we still don't know about. There are plenty of 'solid' horses that are actually carrying a supposed dominant pattern. I have even seen horses that are completely solid, with no white markings at all, that are HZ for white patterns.

In terms of temperament, I don't think that bloodlines have nearly as much to do with it as people think. If you set out right, and work consistently with a horse from birth, you are going to have the best chance of having a horse with a good temperament. The mare's temperament will have some play in it, since this is what the foal sees modelled for the first part in it's life, but I don't think the stallion's matters much at all.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Chiilaa- I am going to disagree a bit. There have been cases of stallions passing on things to their foals. I am drawing a blank on the name at the moment, but there was a TB stud that was known for kicking the snot out of his stall. You could always tell which foals were his. They did the same thing. There are other stallions that have passed on other traits. I think that temperament does have a base in genetics and we can only influence what we would like it to be like.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

ND - without thread hijacking - I agree that we see patterns in bloodlines of 'good' horses and less than 'good' horses in terms of vices and temperament. I just think there is a lot more play in the environment than most people give credit for. 

Now for the thread hijack - did you know they have just developed a test for LP??? It's not for the direct mutation, but for a couple of strands that are found with it.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2052.2010.02119.x/full


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Lol Totally thread hijack.

I knew they were developing a test, but I do not think it is available to the public at this point in time. But I could very well be wrong on that score.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I worded that wrong, I should have put he hasn't thrown color. I know he can. I don't know why I wrote that that way.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

NdAppy said:


> I am drawing a blank on the name at the moment, but there was a TB stud that was known for kicking the snot out of his stall.


One well known one is Kennedy Road but there have been a few recent ones that are also well known in the TB industry.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

> I see the foal as being a key of sorts into registrable showing of the Vanner horse, as although I do love Haflingers I do like Vanners as well.


I am not understanding this at all Joe. If you want to show Vanners ( and by the way, only those registered in the Vanner registry can be called Vanners. Most call them Gypsy Cobs or Gypsy Horses) then why not purchase one? Prices have come down to a very reasonable level this last couple of years.

If you breed your mare to a Gypsy, then you'll have a cross. The Vanner and some other regisries, won't even register the foal. You will also only have a little feathering. Remember feather is very recessive and there are only very few feathered breeds. Haflingers are not one of them. I agree, they do (sometimes) make a pretty cross, but why produce a cross at all? You can still have your Haffies and get a Gypsy Horse too.

I like your mare quite well and if she were mine, I'd breed her to another Haffy.

Most Gypsy owners these days, won't breed crossbreds. Far too many of them came about a couple of years back, when it seemed many were trying to breed half Gypsies. Thankfully, the current craze, seems to be breeding everything and anything to Friesians and left crossbreeding to Gypsies behind.

If Lively Leo's pedigree is true and DNA confirmed, I know the horses in his background very well. Too bad they are pumping out so many crossbreds from him. We sure have enough of them already.

JMHO

Lizzie


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

The average price for a Vanner is around $10,000 within 500 miles of me. The average price for a cross foal is around $4000. I'm not going to discuss how much the breeding will cost but if everything goes okay (my mare has had foals with no problems before I owned her) the complete cost would be a bit less than a cross foal. (note: this is why I wanted the financial resources to fall back on in case things don't go okay, I kind of feel it would be the equivalent to buying a foal and having them become ill at some point of owning them) Which is why I said I was considering instead of breeding buying a cross foal or a mare already in foal. It would depend on (at the time) what is available. 

The reason I want a cross is because the feather of a full Vanner intimidates me and we are averagely moderate people who are fine with having a registered cross. I know that having a cross of a Friesian or Vanner is kind of like someone swinging on the skirttails of the famous. (kind of like having a bandogge instead of a bulldog) For some that isn't their ideal situation but if having a cross of a Vanner is the closest I get to owning the bonifide thing that is fine with me. It shouldn't hurt any Vanner breeders as they are not the ones who have to feed and care for the foal. (not trying to be harsh just trying to make you understand my line of thinking)

The average cost of a Haflinger foal around my area is $1000 or less. The cost to breed my mare to the best Haflinger stallion in my area would be the same as above. I have been following several horses on different websites to see how fast they sell. The Gypsy crosses always sell faster than the Haflingers, always. Besides I already have two Haflingers and could probably take $300 to go get one from an auction within the next month. In fact there is one sitting at a rescue at this very moment whose listed fee is $250. I'm not saying I want to sell the foal. I wouldn't unless something beyond my control happened. I'm just saying if I HAD to sell the foal I'd rather make some sort of profit and have the foal have a better chance of staying out of the kill pen. 

I'm sorry I called the cross foals a Vanner. What I meant was a cross of. Thank you for the comment about my mare. I really like her to. And I really haven't seen as many Gypsy crosses around where I live. Not nearly as many of them as any other breed. I know how it is to stand up for a breed and not want to see it be crossed frivously. I've been there and I'm going to tell you that I don't plan to pump out foals left and right just cause. I plan for one foal and that is truly it. I've never been accussed of being a backyard breeder and I never plan to be called that.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I completely understand your thinking Joe and the care it takes to look after feathered breeds properly. 

Hoooowever, you can obtain a ton of Gypsies for three to six thousand now. I even saw a quite nice mare in foal the other day, for (I believe) $3,500. Prices are not what some rather greedy and insane breeders, have in the past, and are still pricing their stock for these days. And who knows if they actually get that much. :wink:

There are also many Gypsy crosses around for much less than the $4,000 you quoted. Nobody should be paying that for a cross, when one can get a purebred for the same price and even less.

Lizzie


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

The prices I mentioned are what I have seen in my area. I have called several breeders to ask them what they have and what the costs were. I'm just going off the things I have seen. If there are any priced in that range around here they are hiding from me. I really thank you for your advice though. I think it will all come down to what is available at the time I decide to dive into this. I just want to make sure I'm as prepared for what I'm doing as possible.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Spend a little time going through..;
DreamHorse
Drafts for sale
Draft Horse Classified
AgDirect
Equine.com

Look under Gypsy Vanner, Gypsy Cob and Gypsy Horse in each site. They are all the same breed. You might find many lovely pure and crossbreds there, for less money.

Also, look through all the registries, for breeders in your area and close surrounding states. 
GCDHA GCDHA
Home | THE GYPSY HORSE REGISTRY OF AMERICA
American Gypsy Horse Breed Association
GHA - THE REGISTRY OF CHOICE FOR THE GYPSY HORSE

Many will give deals on stock right now and especially young stock. You might also find a quality stallion who will crossbreed and not produce stock which might be very common in your immediate area. 

Please know, I am not in favour of crossbreeding, but just want to help you in your search, if you feel this is your end plan.

Lizzie


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Thank you. The only website I haven't viewed is GCDHA. I'll be sure to check it out. I know you aren't a fan of crossbreeding and I applaud that. It's nice when people stand up for what they believe in no matter what other people think.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ShutUpJoe said:


> It's nice when people stand up for what they believe in no matter what other people think.



Yes it is..even if they wish too show the good side of breeding in spite of everyone saying nay !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Well, while I'm not a fan of most crossbreeding, I do think it's up to all of us, to make sure the mare owner has a lot of info at his/her disposal, and doesn't just breed to something which is handy.

Lizzie


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Ohh Spyder behave before I go after you with a fly swatter!


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

FeatheredFeet, if I wanted to do something handy there is a 17H Belgain stallion around the corner from me. The guy said because I'm a neighbor he'd let me breed my Haflinger for $200. My prompt response was "No Thanks". He is a really nice stallion too.


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## ladybugsgirl (Aug 12, 2009)

There are SOOOO many good horses out there that need homes. I would consider adopting instead of breeding but thats just me


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Hey, if you show me a Gypsy Horse that is sitting in a rescue right now I'll look into adopting it. : )


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## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

Wishing you lots of luck in whatever avenue you choose. I love your haffy so I'll definately be watching if you decide to breed her. Good luck!!!


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Belgian x Haflinger? I can't see the point of that either. Glad you turned him down. 

We have (so far) only had one Gypsy rescue in and none showing up in auctions. Have heard of a couple of crossbred Gypsies in auctions sadly. Only a matter of time though. Some people in the Dakotas, have been pumping out Gypsy crosses and out of all kinds of different mares, for years now. Of course, they also breed a ton of different designer dogs, so that says a lot about them. 

Lizzie


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Thank you Plains Drifter, I'll be sure to post when the time comes on what I've decided.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I have a friend with a super nice dapple grey, gypsy stallion in Ohio. I think she will crossbreed. email me if you are interested.
[email protected] 

Lizzie


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Ok I'll e-mail you about it.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

ShutUpJoe said:


> Ohh Spyder behave before I go after you with a fly swatter!


Just a reminder....

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-forum-rules-announcements/conscientious-etiquette-policy-6069/


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

I'm sorry if this has been asked before... but can I ask what you're hoping to achieve from this breeding?

Are you looking for a general purpose riding horse, or a small draft horse, or ???


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

LOL Spyder -

I am going to have to go with Unicorn here - I am not understanding the concept behind these two breeds being combined together?


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Just found another nice Gypsy x Haffy colt. Red/white. Don't know exactly how old he is now but he's young. His sire is a gorgeous Gypsy stallion which we bred and sold a few years ago. His dam, a really nice Haffy mare. Lovely colt! They tell me he's very friendly, outgoing, fancy mover. Moderate feathering. Been well handled. Good with children. Good with feet, halter, etc. They are asking $2,500 for him but will take an offer. They are in Minnesota.









Sire. Harlequin Farms The Prophet.









Dam. Lovely Haflinger mare.










Toby. Nice markings. Very fancy mover. I'm told he has moderate feather.

Lizzie


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks FeatheredFeet, he's super cute. I don't think I noted that I'm not going to be purchasing or breeding until probably sometime next year though. He might not be available then. The last foal I posted on the first page is for sale for $1000. He won't have feathering but I've considered him. 

Yes, I'm wanting a smaller semi-feathered (hopefully) spotted draft pony. I want to use it for cart, showing and general riding.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

I think Joe, that the colt I posted, will not be very tall, I doubt over 13.3 since I do know the sire and all his background, very well. They are all pretty much under 14hh. But with his movement, I'd think he'd be pretty fancy when put to the cart.

I'm sure they'd take less for him too. :wink: 

Just throwing a few ideas out there for you. Let me know privately if you hear from Molly. 

Lizzie


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I haven't e-mailed her yet. I saved your e-mail and am planning to e-mail her soon. Thanks : )


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## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

FeatheredFeet said:


> Just found another nice Gypsy x Haffy colt. Red/white. Don't know exactly how old he is now but he's young. His sire is a gorgeous Gypsy stallion which we bred and sold a few years ago. His dam, a really nice Haffy mare. Lovely colt! They tell me he's very friendly, outgoing, fancy mover. Moderate feathering. Been well handled. Good with children. Good with feet, halter, etc. They are asking $2,500 for him but will take an offer. They are in Minnesota.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's gorgeous! Wish I had the $$ I'd snatch him up in a heartbeat. I LOVE that he's not going to be very big!!!


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

He is a cute colt. Prophet was the one colt we sold whole. Mostly we geld colts before sale. Prophet's dam is my most favourite Gypsy mare. About 13.3. His sire, owned by a good friend of mine, is also about the same height. With a Haffy as his dam, this boy won't be very tall I'm sure.

Lizzie


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

IMO, I see where SUJ is coming from here. She's being proactive in planning this and thinking it through. This isn't a spur of the moment, fly by the seat of your pants decision that she is making. She is doing it the way that it SHOULD be done. FF, you may not agree with crossbreeding, but honestly, to each their own. She is making sure that her mare is in good health and that she has the emergency funds available if something were to happen during the pregnancy. Isn't that the responsible thing to do? She's breeding for a purpose, not just for the luxury of saying she has a Gypsy. I see both sides of the argument here but I firmly stand behind SUJ as she is making an informed decision and is being responsible in her preparation.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Thank you Amarea. I always want to be sure I'm doing the right thing by all of my animals. As I said before I don't know yet whether I'm going to breed, buy a bred mare or buy a foal already on the ground. It all depends on what is available to me at the time I have the money.


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

So this is going to be a foal you'll be keeping then?

If so, and you've done all the research (as it looks you have) then I see nothing wrong with this cross for the purpose you want the foal for. 

I don't see this cross as being overly marketable though... in other words I don't think it would be "worth it" to breed this cross for the sake of selling. (unless, of course, there is a demand for stocky draft ponies in your area - there really isn't in mine.)


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

There is a demand for the cross in my area and I have every intention of keeping the foal. : )


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