# 2 year old dangerous in the roundpen.



## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

*Lunging*

You know what, I have dealt with horses like that both young and old, and my technic is this. If you have a horse who has the energy to be a disrespectful(to type it nicely), then it's the right time to get them to free lunge until they are ready to listen. 
Start off on a good note and see if you can achieve what it is you need to achieve, but it comes down to a horse who is bullying you around, free lunge that horse until it is so tired out that it will realize there is no other option but to start being respectful.

Now having said that, I assume that this misbehaving is a new thing? Im only saying this because it sounds like this horse knows better. This is not something I recommend with a horse whos never been worked with.

Years ago I owned a huge gelding who was used by the police, 16'2hh and a good 1500lbs. He was a huge horse and a TB which didnt help. I had issues with him not wanting to load in the trailer and he kept bullying me, and he knew better. The trailer was not an issue. I got the lunge line out, and I would ask him nicely to load. If he said no and tried to be rude, off on the lunge line he went for 10 mins-and HARD do not let him/her leisurely trot around, they have to WORK. I did this for 2 hours until he was so tired he gave in and loaded. That was the only and last time I ever had issues with him loading.

It sounds like you have a smart cookie of a horse, dont let it intimidate you.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

This... "misbehaving" is new, I've worked with her quite a few times before this, and she showed a little pushy-ness, but nothing out of the ordinary for a sassy 2 year old.

My first attempt was exactly what you said, My2Geldings, started on a good note and free lunge until she listens. We obviously havent gotten there yet. I did want to free lunge her hard until she gave up, but she acted as if she wanted to fight, and I didnt want to mess with a horse like that with my healing knee. My father also tried the same approach as mentioned, and he hasn't gotten it either. And it's not like either of us was being tender and nice with the whip when she got... bad. She just stood there and tried to kick at it and such.

I'm thinking solitary confinement in the roundpen for a week getting led to water getting forked feed in the morning and evening is in order.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think the OP was saying that she cannot get the horse to lunge, as you are advising her too. pressure with a whip has lead to her jumping out of the round pen.

OP, have you tried lungin her in an arena? I mean on a line? Does she lead reasonably well? how are her ground manners when not fighting in a round pen?


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I dont have an arena available! 

She leads really well, I've taken her for "walks" around the yard without any problems. Her ground manners are pretty good, she's a little pushy and impatient though.

The pressure from the whip has led to more than jumping out of the roundpen, she doesn't even react to it sometimes, or tries to go on the fight.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

So is this sort of behaviour normal for her, has been gradually getting worse, or was the other day a big change? If it's a sudden change, what's been happening recently?

Whatever, I first strongly advise you forget 'roundpenning' for now at least & as it sounds that you & your dad are not experienced with training, I'd *strongly* advise you find someone that is, to teach you all. Perservering is only likely to make this horse far more dangerous & harder for even a good trainer to work with.



QHriderKE said:


> I started getting a lot meaner with the lunge whip as her behaviour got worse, I gave her several cracks across the butt, and snapped the tail to make noise to try and get her to MOVE. She wouldn't. She actually started acting like a bull or cow that was thinking about chasing.


While punishment can sometimes be warranted & helpful IMO, it sounds like you were probably being unclear(how did you attempt to *teach* her the 'right' responses?) & too confrontational, so adding further punishment to that mix only made matters worse.



> Needless to say, she got left in the round pen alone for a few hours.


I will assume that was due to your knee & concerns about safety. I hope if she were left there for a few hours she at least got some hay? It is bad for their health to go hungry for periods of time. If it was because you were hoping to further punish her, you need to understand that horses only learn by *instant* association and don't understand abstract concepts, so if it was bad for her, the association will only be with the roundpen if anything, not her 'wrong' behaviour. So whether you punish or reward, it needs to happen *at the time of* the behaviour you want to influence.



> And then she JUMPED out of the round-pen (roughly 5 feet).


Sounds like she's been pushed way too hard & is confused & frightened of the whole experience:-(.



> And this all is not without punishment, let me tell you. But she doesn't get the hint. She doesn't understand that she has to respect the human working with her.


You're right, she doesn't get it. Of course she doesn't have to respect 'the human', although I think it's definitely desireable if you can _**earn**_ her respect.



> I believe she was spoiled as a yearling before I bought her and it's showing up now.


While you don't tell how you handle/train her, except that you're not shy of dishing out 'punishment', I believe that regardless of her previous experiences, you are making matters worse. Without more info, there is nothing here to suggest it was prior experiences & everything to suggest that it is your/your dad's approach. **Sorry to be blunt. I don't mean to offend, trying not to assume, but this is the way it honestly sounds to me.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> I've worked with her quite a few times before this, and she showed a little pushy-ness, but nothing out of the ordinary for a sassy 2 year old.


What does this mean to you? What's 'a little pushy' & what's 'sassy'? How have you worked with her?



My2Geldings said:


> achieve, but it comes down to a horse who is bullying you around, free lunge that horse until it is so tired out that it will realize there is no other option but to start being respectful.


I personally disagree strongly with chasing a horse around until it gives up. It will not teach them respect either, although I appreciate this is an ambiguous term & depends what you mean by it.

But that's largely beside the point, as OP cannot get the horse to free lunge anyway by the sound of things & far from the horse 'bullying' her, it sounds very much like the horse is feeling very bullied herself & has been inadvertently taught that fight or flight is her only hope. It is dangerous advice to tell her to keep perservering.



> I'm thinking solitary confinement in the roundpen for a week getting led to water getting forked feed in the morning and evening is in order.


PLEASE FORGET THAT IDEA & LEARN HOW HORSES LEARN, for a start!!!


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Neither of me or my dad are new to training. My dads been breaking horses since he was 13 and we've tamed and broke a few wild/untouched horses together. I'm pretty sure we have some decent experience in training. 

Before this, I had done some simple groundwork like backing up and giving to pressure on the ground and getting her used to potentially scary things around the yard and she did just fine. No big issues that were a red flag to this behaviour. This behaviour just seemed to pop up when I tried to get her to move for me in the roundpen.

Really, I only got after her with the whip when she froze and wouldn't move. I tried to get forward movement out of her, and when I did, I let off and let her move. The only response we really want from her is movement that doesn't result in freezing at the gate and hitting it, or trying to crawl over the fence. 

And about leaving her in the pen for a few hours without hay, well... every other horse on the property comes up to the corral and parks itself by the waterer where there is no grass, just sand, and stand there out of their own free will from 11am to about 6pm, and then they wander back out to the pasture to graze. IMO, her standing in the pen alone without food wasn't much different than her standing in a different pen with a bunch of other horses without food.

The time she jumped out of the pen was when she tried to push through the gate and my dad whacked her on the chest to try and get her to move away from the gate. She then ran across the pen and jumped out. 

I am just at a loss of what to try. I think I might try really small circles at a walk around me on a lead line so that she HAS to pay attention to me, and that's all I could think of so far...

And where I get the leading to water and such idea from is from when we were "taming" those wild horses, we'd catch them every day and lead them to water, it's simple but it seemed to help a lot of things.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

QHriderKE said:


> Really, I only got after her with the whip when she froze and wouldn't move. ....result in freezing at the gate and hitting it, or trying to crawl over the fence.


'Freezing' is a fear/mental shut down type response. Instead of just trying to force her, I'd be endevouring to get her thinking of you as a Good Thing to be with, rather than something frightening that she wants to escape from, and make it easy for her to understand what you want. Eg. if you've only done some basic groundwork with her before, perhaps she hasn't learned yet to follow your bodylanguage, only direct pressure from the lead. Perhaps she hasn't learned how to yield(respond softly with understanding & without fear) to a whip. Perhaps she hasn't learned to respond to you at a distance, only up close, or only in a particular environment - horses don't generalise well. Find ways of making the 'right' things easier for her to work out. Also try to ensure her 'right' answers cause *good* consequences, not just lack of bad.



> own free will from 11am to about 6pm, and then they wander back out to the pasture to graze.


OK, that sounds unusually long IME & from what I understand about their digestion, but in case you didn't realise, just wanted to explain that it's not good for them health-wise to be left hungry for long. Unlike us, they're designed to have small amounts going through their system near constantly & as such, there is a constant trickle of stomach acid, so empty stomachs are at risk of ulcers & such.



> The time she jumped out of the pen was when she tried to push through the gate and my dad whacked her on the chest to try and get her to move away from the gate. She then ran across the pen and jumped out.


I'd be working on getting her motivated & willing to be with you & pay attention before I'd attempt to make her 'do stuff'. Then start teaching the 'stuff' very simply.



> I am just at a loss of what to try. I think I might try really small circles at a walk around me on a lead line so that she HAS to pay attention to me,


I would suggest studying the 'laws of learning' and equine psychology/behaviour, so you understand how horses learn & how reinforcement/punishment works & when/why/why not punish or use other tactics. Regarding the small circles online, by the sound of things, I wouldn't start there, but go right back to the basics first, but yes, that is one thing I generally consider a good preparation for lunging at a bigger distance.



> And where I get the leading to water and such idea from is from when we were "taming" those wild horses, we'd catch them every day and lead them to water, it's simple but it seemed to help a lot of things.


Yes, that is helpful to establish that it's a good thing to allow yourself to be caught & be with people, because you're only doing something desirable with them. I think you need to work out other ways of showing her that 'working' with you is desirable for her & not unpleasant.

Oh & regardless of how 'experienced' we may be, there are often better or at least alternate ways of doing things & you can always learn from other trainers.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

Can you get her to move her hip away from your in a small circle on a lead rope? I'd start there. Can you get a video?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Wow! I can tell that there are not many people here on the Forum that have successfully dealt with a vicious horse. The only thing I find unusual is that it is a 2 year old filly and not a stud or an older mare. We have had a few vicious young mares come to us, but they are in a minority.

Let me point out the key things that happened that shaped her into the horse she has now become. I will try to 'debunk' some of the 'wrong' associations and responses.

First, let me repeat what I have said many times. I HATE WHIPS! I REALLY HATE THEM FOR ANY FORM OF DISCIPLINE!


> It all started when I caught her the other day, and she was being really pushy and rammy on the ground just leading from the corral to the barn and in the barn as well. She would not let me physically push her or move her, so I dragged her to the roundpen and started roundpenning her to teach her that I can make her move and that she has to pay attention to me.


This was your first big mistake. This is what emboldened her and told her that she was in charge. Once you ask for something, *you must make it happen! *Some horses are a lot more 'forgiving' than others. It is a quality that comes with a 'good, trainable disposition'. It is the main quality we breed for and the main reason we buy few prospects and raise our own at 20 to 30X the cost that we could purchase them for.


> This... "misbehaving" is new, I've worked with her quite a few times before this, and she showed a little pushy-ness, but nothing out of the ordinary for a sassy 2 year old.


I suspect that what you are calling a little 'pushy-ness' and a 'sassy 2 year old', she has taken much more seriously. You should have taken it more seriously, too. *The worst behavior you allow is the best behavior you have any right to expect.*

Never, never, NEVER turn a horse loose that has threatened you physically. This can be anything from laying ears back and moving toward you, pawing at you, kicking at you, biting at you, etc. [I am not talking about 'nipping' but about biting -- mouth open, ears back and intending to hurt -- like a horse bites another horse it is trying to hurt.

If you ask a horse to back up --- which I consider the very best way to instill respect in a disrespectful horse --- *make it happen.

*There are two ways that I have found very effective to make a belligerent horse back up. Husband uses a third way. I will go through all of them.

One is to tie the horse up solidly to a good solid fence. Tie it rather long, four feet or so. Take a second lead-rope, stand off to one side, lead the horse forward until it hits the end of the tied rope, then ask the horse to back up along the fence. Start by just asking with a 'smooch' and a normal push / bump on the nose using the second lead-rope. If the horse 'bulls up' and refuses, step out to the side and start jerking the rope until the horse DOES back up. The tied rope keeps him from jumping on you or bulldozing over you. Be aware that a really mean one can still strike out at you. I've had it happen. You can stay out of the way and you can make a horse back up.

After a horse backs up, untie it and re-tie it somewhere else and do it again. Do this until the horse has an "I give up!" response. This is a relaxed horse, usually licking lips and always lowering the head. Then, do it out in the open. If all goes well, back the horse 15 or 20 feet and quit ONLY when the horse is willingly stepping back. Then, go tie the horse up for a while. I use NO petting or praising. I find this completely unnecessary and very distracting to the horse. I have had best results with using 'relief' and a 'lack of pressure' as the only reward. After the horse has been tied up for an hour or so, go over to it and see if the horse is still acting 'submissive' and cooperative. If it is, put the horse up. No feeding or petting or praising. Just put the horse away.

[Remember, that when you gave the horse 'relief and a lack of pressure' when you stopped asking her to back or move over and you put the horse out in the round pen, how quickly did she learn that she was in charge? It did not take petting and praising. It only took you taking the pressure off! *This is how they learn!*]

The second way I teach a 'tough' horse to 'yield to pressure' is to take a piece of folded up baling wire and spank the horse's chest -- hard -- until the horse backs up. I also use this method to enforce a pushy horse to move its shoulder away from me when I 'smooch' and ask it to move. I just spank its shoulder. I do it quietly (nothing but a 'smooch') and I do it with as little movement as possible. I just want the horse to think it ran into a 'buzz-saw' or an electric fence when it did not back away from me when asked. I want it to think it was the worst decision of its life. Then, I quietly fold the baling wire up one more time, put it in my back pocket and act like nothing happened.

Third way: Husband still uses a chain over a horse's nose when it will not yield to pressure. I do not. I am not strong enough and having severe arthritis and degenerative joint disease since I was 40, I cannot win all of those battles, so I do not start them. It works for him. He is big enough to be effective on a lead-shank -- frequently with just a rope halter and a comfortable lead-rope, but always with a flat halter and a chain. I think I get a lot more done with a lot less fuss and noise. But then, I don't have Testosterone driving me to take a more aggressive route. [I'm glad he doesn't read this.]

Never, never, NEVER threaten a horse. Ask quietly and 'lightly'. Then demand with a little more force. If the horse does not respond correctly, make it think it was the HUGE mistake to not listen the very first time when you only asked nicely. 

Always remember that it is MUCH more effective to back a horse up and 'push' it around than to make it run forward. I think they frequently see that as an 'escape' from the request. 

Oh! And the horse jumping out of the round-pen? It was not from fear or confusion. She knew exactly what you wanted, did not want to do it, and jumping out was an escape. It is very common -- sometimes even with a rope on the horse. Just another example of why backing up is a lot more effective than running around forward. I've watched them jump out of 6' HD panels and try to jump 8'.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Personally, I would step back a bit and work on things you know she can do and you know won't push your knee. Don't set yourselves up for a fight you know she will have that you know you cannot fight out. I would also avoid small circles, if she is kicking out, you do not want to be at the optimum distance for the most forceful kick. Stay very close or stay very far.

This is where groundwork is very important. Forget roundpenning her until you have complete control on a leadline, walking around. If you don't have a dressage whip, you can make do with a stick or some sort. Gracie was, and still can be, a pushy little brat. That meant I didn't deal with her without having my dressage whip for a good while. Start out asking the mare to yield her body. Getting her to move her butt and pivot on her front legs is usually the easiest thing for them to move. I start with snapping my fingers at her butt, and then give a few pokes. Use the leadrope to pull her head over to encourage her moving her haunches, and gradually escalate the pressure until she yields. If she moves AT ALL, walk her somewhere else, and ask again. Accept any yielding she gives you. I find that letting the horse walk or trot out after doing something "complicated" will unfrazzle their featherhead and prevents them from getting stuck. Keep your sessions short and sweet, ideally two, maybe three times a day. Once she is yielding her hindquarters nicely and easily [I just snap my fingers as a cue], try getting her to side-step. I wouldn't work on pivoting on her haunches until you've managed pivoting on the forehand and side-stepping, I find pivots on the haunches are harder for them and harder to get.

I wasn't afraid to beat the snap out of Gracie when I had to. Gracie was never vicious, though, just pushy. I wish you luck, and stay safe!


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## Candi0207 (Aug 31, 2012)

*I had this problem too...*

Hi,

Just wanted to go to a totally different direction here. I have a 23 old mare that has been ridden all her life, was a trail, hunting horse, etc... she could be a bit pushy at times, but obviously she has been broke a lot of years. One day my daughter was trying to saddle her and she got really ornery about it. Like you I thought it was just bad behavoir, so I took her in the roundpen to freshen up on her manners.

She went nuts. She literally charged at me like a bull, wouldn't go, struck on me, snapped her teeth at me... so this was way above a little pushiness. I got ticked, I tried to show her who was boss, unsuccessfully, and then when I cooled off, I realize this behavoir was not normal for this horse. Pushiness can lead to meaness, to be sure, but this was extreme. Your horse jumping out of a 5 foot high round pen, that's extreme too.

So I got a vet to look at her and she has a serious back issue. When she was acting out like that, it wasn't that she was just being a jerk, she was hurting and that was her way of telling me. I would consider getting this horse vet checked before you take it any farther. I would have felt terrible to have kept pushing this horse if it was pain and not a behavoiral issue. I may be wrong, but I think you should at least rule it out and then pursue her training.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

Candi0207 said:


> Hi,
> 
> Just wanted to go to a totally different direction here. I have a 23 old mare that has been ridden all her life, was a trail, hunting horse, etc... she could be a bit pushy at times, but obviously she has been broke a lot of years. One day my daughter was trying to saddle her and she got really ornery about it. Like you I thought it was just bad behavoir, so I took her in the roundpen to freshen up on her manners.
> 
> ...


Very good point, Candi. I second ruling out pain.

Another thought, is she in heat? She is at that age of sexual maturity, she could be one of those that go crazy monster when cycling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Downunder Horsemanship TV

I would suggest watching "The Phoenix" for the explanation of the round pen work.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

UPDATE:

This morning I worked with her in the roundpen. I approached her as if her previous BAD behaviour had not happened and we were starting over on a clean slate. 

I kept her on a lead and used my whip and asked for her to move her hip over. Once she gave me a step, I put my whip down and gave her lovin'. I move on to moving her shoulder around, and did the same when I got it. Then I took a step back and asked her to move forward. I got a step, so she got praised and we slowly moved on to letting more of my lead rope out, going both left and right. I took the lead off when she would stop and turn towards me when I said "whoa" and lowered my whip. 

And HOLY CRAPOLY. She was listening to me, she stayed in the small circle I had made with her when I had the lead, and moved forward, her ear was turned on me, and her body was bent with the circle, not counterbent like she was when all she wanted was an escape route. She was a little hesitant to move forward a few times, but a smooch and a wiggle of the whip got her moving again.

At that point, I quit and gave her some oats in the round pen.

Progress? Yup.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cherie said:


> Wow! I can tell that there are not many people here on the Forum that have successfully dealt with a vicious horse.


Doesn't sound like a 'vicious' horse to me actually so my response was different than it would be with a 'vicious' one, although sounds like the horse could be one in the making if it's not handled well. Of course we only have written words to go on, so the way we read these things is based upon our own experience & perspectives.



> This was your first big mistake. This is what emboldened her and told her that she was in charge. Once you ask for something, *you must make it happen! *.....
> I suspect that what you are calling a little 'pushy-ness' and a 'sassy 2 year old', she has taken much more seriously. You should have taken it more seriously, too. *The worst behavior you allow is the best behavior you have any right to expect.* ...
> Never, never, NEVER turn a horse loose that has threatened you physically.


Well put. Agree thoroughly. Re the 'make it happen', this doesn't necessarily mean getting forceful & confrontational(tho that's also sometimes called for IMO) but it will also help to think about how you'll handle these type lessons in a non confrontational manner before you 'jump in the deep end' so you can set yourself(and the horse) up for success.



> Never, never, NEVER threaten a horse. Ask quietly and 'lightly'. Then demand with a little more force. If the horse does not respond correctly, make it think it was the HUGE mistake to not listen the very first time when you only asked nicely.


This bit I don't get. If spanking or jerking at him to warn him he better get out of your way is not threatening(especially if he's already had a lesson or few & has learned this is a threat of being hit with wire, then what is?



> Oh! And the horse jumping out of the round-pen? It was not from fear or confusion. She knew exactly what you wanted, did not want to do it, and jumping out was an escape. It is very common -- sometimes even with a rope on the horse.


Without having more than the OP's words to go on, that is just an assumption, to state that she wasn't confused or fearful. I think this is in response to my comment & if I said this behaviour _*WAS*_ confusion & fear, this is also too presumptive - What I hope I wrote was I think it's *likely* to be due to fear & confusion, based on what OP explained.

Of course jumping out was an escape & it's... not helpful to have a horse feel the need to escape from it's handler. It is not a very common occurrence at all IME(& my 'pen' fence is a piece of tape approx 3' high), but then I'm not in the practice of pushing harder on a horse who already wants to escape either. Regardless of whether it is fear based or not, I would take a horse thinking about escape(let alone doing it) as a sign that I'm doing something wrong, probably pushing too hard, not being clear & consistent or such. I also think that if the horse has it's mind on escape, it's more productive to change that focus & attitude before bothering to try teaching it anything else.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

You have run across an extremely dominant horse here, more so than you all have ever dealt with.

Any correcting you are doing, is not getting the point across because this one is a blockhead basically.

I also imagine your corrections are not of the HCTJM type, and not firm enough to make a dent in her.

I would not free lunge this one, as she may be seeing it as "I am doing what I want" and the fact that she is a bully to any extent when leading, tells me that you are not getting any respect at all basically. It just suits her to go along with the program sometimes.

Having to pull her, like I think you said you did? Only set it in her mind that she needed to battle. She needs to fear for her life more than she obviously does.

While you may have "trained" horses for a while, it is clear you don't have a clue as to what is going on here, and this horse can and will hurt you if you persist I am afraid.

I'd get her to a trainer. Or sell her.


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

Hi, 
I am going to say something that a lot of people are going to disagree with, and thats okay. I would see how she is lunging outside the arena. I have a mare that is dangerous in the round pen. The first trainer I sent her to did not understand rewarding by removing pressure. I think my mare was never rewarded for doing the right thing so she got frustrated. She took this mare into the round pen and one day said "we had an epiphany" and two days later the mare "dangerous and was going to kill someone and we should sell her". How do you ethically sell something that you have been told will kill someone? In addition, this is a mare we had foaled out, halter broke and had gone to the track with no complaints about her personality or statements that she dangerous. I had also, while halter braking her done some joint up stuff without an issue. We sent her to a different trainer who said "I could not get this horse to do something dangerous". That second trainer had ridden her through a forest that had 24 hours before been on fire. The mare was fine, tree stumps were still smoking and she walked around like it was no big deal. If you put a rope halter on her today she gets angry. If you put in the round pen some days she is really good and other days she is bucking, striking, charging and a mess. If you put her on a lunge line she goes walk, trot, canter without complaint. I can saddle this mare up after a year plus off and ride out without a fuss. I don't have a round pen, so I have not tried to fix her round pen behavior. Its just as well because her behavior is a mess that I don't even know how to start to fix. It sounds horrible but her inability to be in a round pen does not impact her ability to be a great riding horse. I have met other people who used the first trainer and had horses with a similar story and bad round pen behavior. 

I would say go carefully. Don't trust one good day in the round pen. Find someone who has experience with this kind of problem. I know that you have horse experience but this is a unique issue. It might be a matter of tearing down her round pen behavior because the previous person did not let up pressure. I would also see how she does on the lunge line but be ready for that to go sideways. You have to be really careful in a round pen because you can get in a horses head. If you don't know what your doing or the horse does not know what you are doing you can get hurt.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

rookie said:


> I would see how she is lunging outside the arena.


I think OP said something about it not being safe outside & she doesn't have any other fenced areas to work in. 



> The first trainer I sent her to did not understand rewarding by removing pressure.


And she called herself a trainer & took money off you?? Hope she got her comeuppance for that!! Not that I call negative reinforcement a reward, but that's a bit of an academic point.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Has no one read my update?? LOL


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Cherie said:


> Wow! I can tell that there are not many people here on the Forum that have successfully dealt with a vicious horse. The only thing I find unusual is that it is a 2 year old filly and not a stud or an older mare. We have had a few vicious young mares come to us, but they are in a minority.
> 
> Let me point out the key things that happened that shaped her into the horse she has now become. I will try to 'debunk' some of the 'wrong' associations and responses.
> 
> ...


 
My questions in red.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

QH rider I've just read through everything, I thoroughly agree with a lot of what Loosie said and a bit of what cherie said. I agree with the parts that overlapped between the two 

I'm so glad your horse is doing better. She sounds alot like my stud colt (but you'd expect that from them). I'm SO happy to hear you started adding a little positive reinforcement (scratches and such) to her regimen, rather than just negative. I find Stallions/rough geldings due better with a strong intense handler, who will get after them and 'put them in their place' sort of handler. While mares, even aggressive ones, are the type who will do much more for a little loving than they would to avoid a beating. 
My mare I trained at the same time as I trained my stud colt, so I went at her in a very similar mentality, which led me to handling her quite intensely, never rougher than needed. But I found she just didn't pick up on things nearly at all. She remained disrespectful, while my colt got 100x better on the same training. I just had enough with my mare and what i called her 'bad attitude' and decided to rethink her training. I just restarted her training using a mix of positive and negative reinforcement (so applying pressure then her reward would be release of pressure + treat/scratchings). With this method, in 2 weeks she has come further than she did in a year of me 'showing her who's boss'. 

I'm so happy you've figured out your mare, they all think differently don't they?  I'd also consider getting her a check up, this time is when they first start cycling and could very well be that she's uncomfortable or even in pain. 

Good luck in your further ventures with you mare  Keep us posted

ETA: Also, as a 2 year old I'd avoid doing excessive round pen or lunging work, unless you have a huge round pen (even still >.<) Their joints are still growing and working faster than a trot on tight circles is very tough on their joints, especially their stifles and hocks at the canter. So I'd take it easy on circle work until she's more fully developed.


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

First off I just want to say a 2 yr old filly can be just as stubborn as a colt can be and sometimes worst. From what the OP has stated both the horse and the OP became stressed confused and frustrated to the point neither was listening to any aids given. When a person becomes frustrated trying to get a horse to respond correctly and nothing seems to be working its time to step back take a deep breath and begin at the beginning. meaning teaching horse to respect you on the lead and from what OP stated caused her to take the filly to the round pen to start with was disrespect on the lead. Round penning is NOT going to teach this working more with her on the lead rope is. Round penning is not a cure for everything.
and when you do round pen work pay attention to where you stand when asking a horse to move forward if you are too in front of her shoulder shes not going to move forward shes going to move off away from you spinning away etc. Being just behind the shoulder will drive her forward. All too many times the person is not in the right position to get the horse to move in the intended direction. Hense the reason for the horse confusion and the OP frustration. Go back to square 1 work with her on the lead. And her being a 2 yr old this should be a everyday thing not once in awhile. She needs the training daily.
Im glad she did better for you the second day.
Now as for CHERIES comment on whips I am so thankful you do not handle my horses because to me a whip when handled correctly as a aid NOT a punishment is by far better then a folded up baling wire To me that says agressive hands. Im trying hard to understand what you mean by tying a horse to a solid fence and having it back up. when this can be accomplished untied and getting the horse to move back. If you have a horse that chooses to act out and try to bolt your going to end up with either a broken fence and horse running with rope or a horse with a injured neck. Also if a horse cannot flee they will strike out heck I would. 

OP - Just remember 2 things well 3 consistancy reputition and patience never train when upset and frustrated you get no where when you are seeing red. 
oh also if you get back into a situation like you mentioned have your dad record you and then both you sit and watch the session it helps to see if you are doing something wrong. I used to do this with my students when they rode. 

well anyways Good luck be safe and be patient but firm.

TRR


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

I love that idea - record what happened, I record all my training sessions with my horses now, it's easy on my phone. But it gives me a chance to look over what we did, where I screwed up, why the horse didn't respond correctly, and how I could have handled a situation better. Or sometime it just reminds me I'm not as dumb as I think sometimes xD


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I wish. I've been after my parents to video me riding or doing any training, but they think it's useless, so that's that.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Haha, I just prop my camera phone up in a corner of my field that can see a fairly wide range and click play. I'm the only one watching most of them so i don't care if there's 2 minutes of blank before I get the horse all ready to work. I get out of camera view alot too, but there's enough that actually gets caught for me to see my little mistakes and work on them next time. 

I also just reread what Cherie wrote about 'never rewarding a horse with any more than a release of pressure'. :O Really? Those poor horses never even get a scratch for doing the right thing? I had a boss like that, he always yelled at me if something was wrong but never let me know when I did the right thing, he just didn't complain if I was alright. I got so I hated seeing his face - I knew if he was coming over I was getting an ear-full. I had to quit that job. Most good bosses, in fact most good teachers, know when to reward and when to punish. A reward has to be something the horse wants, not _just_ getting rid of something he doesn't want. Now I agree there are a number of people who over-do the rewarding part and under-do the punishment part, leading to many spoiled horses. But there are also a number of people who over-do the punishment part and under-do the reward part, making mindless, broken horses. Honestly I find it easier to fix a spoiled horse than a horse who just doesn't care anymore. It's awful hard to wake a horse up out of that mindset. Lack of punishment in not enough of a reward.

Sorry if I ramble  It's late.

Again happy to hear your mare's doing well - happy to hear you're looking on the positive side of things. Remember small steps are important  Good luck!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

QHriderKE said:


> Has no one read my update?? LOL


Rookie commented, I 'liked' it...:wink:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

PunksTank said:


> Haha, I just prop my camera phone up in a corner of my field that can see a fairly wide range and click play. I'm the only one watching most of them so i don't care if there's 2 minutes of blank before I get the horse all ready to work. I get out of camera view alot too, but there's enough that actually gets caught for me to see my little mistakes and work on them next time.
> 
> _I also just reread what Cherie wrote about 'never rewarding a horse with any more than a release of pressure'. :O Really? Those poor horses never even get a scratch for doing the right thing? I had a boss like that, he always yelled at me if something was wrong but never let me know when I did the right thing, he just didn't complain if I was alright. I got so I hated seeing his face - I knew if he was coming over I was getting an ear-full. I had to quit that job. Most good bosses, in fact most good teachers, know when to reward and when to punish. A reward has to be something the horse wants,_ not _just_ getting rid of something he doesn't want. Now I agree there are a number of people who over-do the rewarding part and under-do the punishment part, leading to many spoiled horses. But there are also a number of people who over-do the punishment part and under-do the reward part, making mindless, broken horses. Honestly I find it easier to fix a spoiled horse than a horse who just doesn't care anymore. It's awful hard to wake a horse up out of that mindset. Lack of punishment in not enough of a reward.
> 
> ...


 

With regard to the part about petting or not petting during training, I felt much like what you said when I first read cherie's post, but having seen how happy a horse can be when he goes from a state of agitation wherein he doesnt' know what to do, to the peace of equilibrium and the vacummn from pressure, I can agree that this can be a great pleasure to a horse. Horses like this state, of 'no pressure or change, or . . . "Wah". this is a Japanese word which means constancy, harmony, unchange, peace, satisfaction and lack of agitation. That is the best place for a horse. There are even times when for us to go in and pet or praise them , we are literally breaking and lessening the state of "wah" that they have. In this vacuum they can regroup themselves and I believe gain security from knowing the order of thing , vis-a-vis with human beings or higher level horses. For a horse that had to be radically changed from "I'm the boss" to "ok, I will follow your lead", they might need some time. Coming in and petting them might actually be confusing, since we have changed in their minds and they arent' too sure about things yet.


I do pet horses a lot, but I am also not the kind of horse person who ever deals with really tough training situations. So, I am only speculating on why Cherie might not pet or love on a horse in this kind of training.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Tinyliny -- You nailed it!!!!!!!

They train soooo much faster and soo much better without the distraction of positive reinforcement -- which is VERY SELDOM associated with what they did to get it.

When I first started training full time (as a teen with 10 - 12 hour solid work days and 10 horses in full training) I did a lot of positive reinforcement -- because it made sense to me. Of course, I was not a horse. The more I watched herd behavior (which shaped all of my evolving methods) the more I understood that pressure -- any pressure = rein contact, a heel in a horse's ribs or your voice once he has learned to listen to it. Relief = reward = taking the pressure off = telling him he is doing the right thing.

[Someone PLEASE tell me how a herd leader rewards the horse they just kicked in the ribs because that horse tried to steel a bite of their grain.]

As I did less and less direct rewarding for the right thing with positive reinforcement, the more quickly my horses did the right thing and the fewer sessions it took to get the correct results -- especially with retraining horses with bad behavior issues. I had found that interrupting the flow of information, changing the train of thought and moving attention from the task at hand to me only made the desired results take much, MUCH longer to achieve. Not only that, some horses were so confused by it that they were far less consistent with their behavior. 

I never said anywhere that I did not pet or scratch horses. I pet and scratch on every horse I have. I can tell you where each one's favorite scratch spot it. They all love me. They all meet me at the gate. I never have to hide a halter. They all stand there waiting to see if the halter on my arm will go on them. I just never use it as a reward. They don't have to EARN it and they know it. Don't feel sorry for my horses. I feel sorry for your poor confused things. Always remember; *The horse with its ears back being mad, is a miserable horse. The respectful horse with its ears up, is a happy horse. You tell me which horse we should feel sorry for?*

Horses love structure and 'sameness'. They love consistency. They love to know exactly where they stand at all times. They love to know exactly what they can expect. They do not think in terms of "If I don't do this wrong, I get a treat!" "If I back up, she is going to stop pulling on me and pet me!" It is more like "I backed up and got relief!"

IF positive reinforcement really did add anything to a training program, I would not have so many respectful, well-trained horses that NEVER lay an ear back. I have 50 horses and I cannot remember that last time one tried to kick me or even laid a ear back at me. Something must be working. Maybe you should be looking in your own backward to figure out what you are doing wrong.

[Side-note - I have never been a 'trick' trainer. I do know that some tricks can be taught with food rewards -- but then, having not done trick training, I do not know if it really is necessary.]


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

A well trained horse does the things that well trained horses do because she is used to doing them. It is her habit. She does it because that is what horses do. A friendly pat after performing a difficult move never hurts and is probably appreciated, but it is not a motivator to do the move. For example, I am a trail rider, and my horse is not going to navigate a difficult creek crossing in hopes of getting patted. She is going to navigate it because I asked her to and moving off of my legs is what horses do. She still gets the pat.

About the whole whip thing; I must have the wrong picture about what baling wire is. To me, wire says "something that will cut a horse's hide". I carry a longe whip if I go into a field full of horses. I don't have to use it. Any of my horses that are prone to be aggressive already know what it is for.......

To the OP: I am glad that your horse is doing better. I think that the episode that you first described should be written off as a bad day. It sounds like you are on the right track. I would like to hear how she is doing. I know that if it were me, I would keep working her daily. If you put her out for a few weeks, you will probably be back to square one.


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

Oh yes I do know it can be faster. It's not an all together bad way to train. And often I have to agree with you when I'm working with an aggressive stallion/gelding or even a wild/semi-wild horse. I find those horses the best reward is to just leave the alone. But like I said before - I find with mares you get a lot more with sugar than with vinegar. 

Yes you can get a well trained horse by using only negative reinforcement (removal of something they don't want). That is how horses train each other. But we aren't horses. We are predators. When a cougar attacks a horse - say magickally the horse manages to escape - the horse isn't going to turn around and follow the cougar like we expect him to with us. We are something ALL new for a horse to figure out. We aren't horses, we aren't predators, we are asking something completely against their nature from them.

I find you can get a well trained horse with negative reinforcement, but you can get an equally well trained horse in a little longer time-period, but a much happier more motivated horse with a little positive reinforcement done at the right time. And of course this varies completely horse-to-horse. A wild pony we have at our rescue will NEVER view being pat as a reward, but the little girl who I'm teaching how to train her has gotten an 18 year old pony who had never been touched to allow the little girl to lay across her back using only clicker training/positive reinforcement. The pony is too small for the girl to ride, but this girl spends hours with her a day teaching her to go over jumps and through all sorts of scary obstacles, teaching her how to be groomed. When we got her we had to leave a small lead rope attached to her halter just to catch this pony. Now she is - at liberty - following a little girl over tarps and over jumps and being groomed like a normal pony should.

The only reason we trained that particular pony with clicker training was because any pressure at all sent her completely overboard. If you looked at her square she was as far from you as the rope would let her. There was no need to teach her to move away from pressure. She would move any part of her as far away as she could just by looking at it. She needed to learn the opposite.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I worked with her quickly this morning in the pen, just moving her around using my hands, like pushing her shoulder and hip around, and picked up her feet, and tried to bend her head to the side (flexing her laterally??) with the halter. She doesn't give hardly at all, so when I got a few wrinkles in her neck, I let go. I would like to start her in a side-pull hackamore and then go into a bosal before transitioning into a snaffle when she's 4.


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## Army wife (Apr 29, 2012)

QHriderKE said:


> I worked with her quickly this morning in the pen, just moving her around using my hands, like pushing her shoulder and hip around, and picked up her feet, and tried to bend her head to the side (flexing her laterally??) with the halter. She doesn't give hardly at all, so when I got a few wrinkles in her neck, I let go. I would like to start her in a side-pull hackamore and then go into a bosal before transitioning into a snaffle when she's 4.


Definitely work on that lateral flexion!!
On the topic of neg vs pos reinforcement, here is my two cents 
Every horse is different, and communicates differently with people based on it's personality and previous experience with us two legged creatures. Either way, removal of pressure is the biggest motivator for all horses that I've encountered. With that being said, positive reinforcement does help certain horses. I'll give two examples. I volunteer at a rescue ranch, I work with all different kinds of horses, some that are just boarders and have no history of abuse or neglect. GELDING 1 Time: Time is an extremely sensitive horse who has some trust issues from negative past experience, but he has a big heart and is willing to do for me what I ask him. When asking him to do something such as moving his feet, he gets a little nervous. When he does the right thing, I take the pressure off, but he still looks for my approval. As soon as I give him a little pat on the neck, he drops his head, sighs and licks his lips. As if to say "Ah, ok. Your still happy with me, I'm doing the right thing."
GELDING 2 JP: JP is a boarder, 4 year old stud who is the laziest horse you'd ever meet. He has some respect issues, and he's still very green. JP could care less if I pet him and tell him he's a good boy. But if I put pressure on him, and release as soon as he does the right thing, he works well. He gets his reward by being able to stop and stand and take a break.
Two totally different horses, two very different reward systems. Every horse is different.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree, Tiny, especially with _"There are even times when for us to go in and pet or praise them , we are literally breaking and lessening the state of "wah_" 
And 'petting' can also be a punishment, or just something a horse has learned to tolerate, far from a reward for many horses too.



> They train soooo much faster and soo much better without the distraction of positive reinforcement -- which is VERY SELDOM associated with what they did to get it.


Disagree thoroughly. IME when it's DONE RIGHT it is an incredible training aide. It is often done badly though(as are other methods) and so is not associated with the behaviour. That's why I tend to go on about the importance of learning about horse's natural psychology & the *principles behind any approach* over just learning specifics of a method. Eg. I think learning about the *principles* of c/t will help you understand appropriate & effective use of -R & punishment just as well as +R. 

I also agree with Punk's 'bad boss' scenario & I don't think this analogy is anthropomorphising it too much. Also agree Punks that I too have seen many use both +R & -R as well as punishment badly & people do tend to go over the top in either one direction or the other. -R is indeed a great teacher & can be used alone, but as with +R, I think they're best used as part of the whole.



> [Someone PLEASE tell me how a herd leader rewards the horse they just kicked in the ribs because that horse tried to steel a bite of their grain.]


That's like the attitude 'we are not horses so it's silly & pointless to try to learn from & emulate their behaviour.' Despite not being horses, I do agree thoroughly that studying & using their natural ways is incredibly helpful. But that doesn't mean we should disregard any other tools just because horses don't do it. If you really believed that yourself, you wouldn't be using ropes or halters either.



> I had found that interrupting the flow of information, changing the train of thought and moving attention from the task at hand to me only made the desired results take much, MUCH longer to achieve. Not only that, some horses were so confused by it that they were far less consistent with their behavior.


Yep, definitely important whatever reinforcement you give the horse that you don't just end up just distracting & confusing them with it. I just don't have that experience with +R any more than I do with -R. Punishment however, I _purposefully_ use to interrupt behaviours. Depends how it's done.



> Don't feel sorry for my horses. I feel sorry for your poor confused things.


Speaking of respect, this sort of presumptive & condescending comment is what really irritates me about your posts Cherry.:evil: Just because it seems you don't know how to use +R well & can't see past -R/punishment yourself, doesn't mean to say people who have different opinions are idiots & their horses are to be pitied! I don't assume that I know enough about you to assume the worst of you. I don't think that's fair or reasonable, let alone respectful or polite. Lets stay civil & remember that it's just possible that our own approaches aren't the only right ones.



> They do not think in terms of "If I don't do this wrong, I get a treat!"


The way you put it, I may agree. But it is blatently obvious to me that a horse that is trained(well) with +R does indeed understand "If I _do_ this _right_, I get a treat!"



> IF positive reinforcement really did add anything to a training program, I would not have so many respectful, well-trained horses


I could say the same about heavy punishment(I do use punishment, but seldom), but that assumption just doesn't make sense to me.


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## riccil0ve (Mar 28, 2009)

You know, the more someone insists that their methods are better, their horses are better, they're cooler than everyone else, etc etc, the more I think you're just full of dung. It is one thing to say you have 50 respectful horses. It is an entirely different thing to say that the collective "we" do not have respectful horses and that they are confused and deserving of pity. I have two VERY respectful horses, thank you very much. Are they more respectful than yours? Surely, I don't know, as I haven't met yours, so don't act like you have met mine. With age is supposed to come wisdom, stop pretending you are better than everyone else.


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## PurpleMonkeyWrench (Jun 12, 2012)

The second way I teach a 'tough' horse to 'yield to pressure' is to take a piece of folded up baling wire and spank the horse's chest -- hard --

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/2-year-old-dangerous-roundpen-136244/page2/#ixzz25MsJkixa




but whips are bad? I don't get it....


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Army wife said:


> Definitely work on that lateral flexion!!
> On the topic of neg vs pos reinforcement, here is my two cents
> Every horse is different, and communicates differently with people based on it's personality and previous experience with us two legged creatures. Either way, removal of pressure is the biggest motivator for all horses that I've encountered. With that being said, positive reinforcement does help certain horses. I'll give two examples. I volunteer at a rescue ranch, I work with all different kinds of horses, some that are just boarders and have no history of abuse or neglect. GELDING 1 Time: Time is an extremely sensitive horse who has some trust issues from negative past experience, but he has a big heart and is willing to do for me what I ask him. When asking him to do something such as moving his feet, he gets a little nervous. When he does the right thing, I take the pressure off, but he still looks for my approval. As soon as I give him a little pat on the neck, he drops his head, sighs and licks his lips. As if to say "Ah, ok. Your still happy with me, I'm doing the right thing."
> GELDING 2 JP: JP is a boarder, 4 year old stud who is the laziest horse you'd ever meet. He has some respect issues, and he's still very green. JP could care less if I pet him and tell him he's a good boy. But if I put pressure on him, and release as soon as he does the right thing, he works well. He gets his reward by being able to stop and stand and take a break.
> Two totally different horses, two very different reward systems. Every horse is different.


 

Yes , horses are different. But, what you are dealing with in horse numbe one (Time) is moving the feet of a hrose that is already certain that he is subordinate to you. He has done nothing to cause you to push on him, so is unsure when you put pressure on him . He will have fear. (in the horse world, the leader usually only puts pressure on the subordinates if they step out of line and try to get food when it's not their "turn". otherwise, the leader ignores them or even may groom them calmly, certainly tolerates them without putting any pressure on them.) After you move him, petting on him may erase the fear. It won't change his view that he is subordinate.

The Pushy horse is not happy and settled in being subordiante to the human, so having you push on him is against his idea of what's right. He will push back , since in his view YOU have stepped out of line . Once he is set right on the order of things, he just needs time to think on that, not necessarily any loving. A subordiante horse that stepped out of line , got put back there quickly and without doubt or question, would not then expect the lead horse to come and groom him. Not right then.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

There is a difference between training a willing horse and training one that is resistant and trying to dominate.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> There is a difference between training a willing horse and training one that is resistant and trying to dominate.


There sure is! At the end of the day, we(whatever our species, personality, experiences) all learn to do what works for us & quit doing what doesn't work. IME 'easy' horses tend to be easy regardless(assuming effective teaching). It's just working out the most effective ways of using those 'laws of learning' for whoever & on whatever task you're working with at the time.:wink:


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## bellagris (Dec 6, 2010)

I didn't go through and read everything, but a 2 year old can sometimes not be mature enough in the mind to start working them. We've had 2 year olds that we bring in to start ground work etc on and put them back out for another 6 months to just let them grow up a bit because you dont want to make the experience bad for them and you dont want to get hurt either in the process. 

If she was good before and then turned bad, I would look at what you are doing to initiate her reaction to you. The one thing I have learned in training horses no matter what age is that you can fight with a horse all day long and never win, but if you can find a way to work with the horse and work together you end up with a happy horse and as a result a willing horse.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I can never see roundpenning as the 'cure all' Maybe because I'm a Brit and its not something we do - though we have no shortage of difficult horses
If its not done correctly you can turn it into a 'cat & mouse' game when the horse surrenders because its exhausted - that is not willing submission - its begrudging surrender and will only result in a horse that resents what its doing.
Its also very easy to turn a horse thats just a bit too pushy and wants to be domineering into one thats defensive and aggressive if you get the level of punishment & reward wrong
This is a two year old, her joints are still forming, racing around in circles isn't the right thing for her
There is something very lacking in the really basic groundwork/handling process and the relationship with the horse and owner going on here. A horse thats usually OK to handle shouldn't just 'turn' like this. There has to be something else going on


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

jaydee said:


> *when the horse surrenders because its exhausted - that is not willing submission - its begrudging surrender and will only result in a horse that resents what its doing.*


Agree thoroughly with your whole post jaydee, but that bit especially deserves repeating!:wink:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

loosie said:


> Agree thoroughly with your whole post jaydee, but that bit especially deserves repeating!:wink:


 Thank you *loosie*
I think that most people know that although you train horses by using repetition and insistence - the old fashioned 'carrot & stick' approach as it was called before they came up with the whole 'pressure & release' thing but where punishment for bad behaviour is concerned they have a really short memory span. If a horse bites for for example you need to let it know immediately that its unacceptable - and a good slap never hurt any horse, its no point taking it away to sit on the 'naughty step' for an hour because it wont have a clue whats going on.
In this case the horse should have been given the discipline while it was on the lead rope because by the time it was racing around the pen it would have no idea why it was doing that in regard to the leading incident.
The horse needs to learn how to lead - not how to run round the pen.
My husband is very good at leading difficult horses, he is strong enough not to let go & he knows where to be to not get himself kicked or run over. Reinforce your authority with a schooling whip if needed and you have the experience to do it and work in an enclosed area where the horse cant get away. If a horse knows how to lead of course it will follow you to food or water (if its been deprived) but thats not the same as it following you wherever you ask it to go


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## Nuala (Jan 2, 2012)

I did not read ALL the posts so if I repeat someone else I apologize. 

As for using a wipe or bailing wire ore nothing...the only thing that is different is using nothing and can also be more dangerous. I prefer to use a long lunge whip...this offers me the distance I prefer and with proper training a horse should simply see it as an extension of your arm. I personally only ever snap skin when they have done something unforgivable (kicked out at me, turned away from me, etc) However I must say I do not agree with "dropping the whip and giving loves" If you have to take that approach that if fine but I prefer approaching with the whip out to the side and slightly ahead of me and *desensitizing* with the whip not my hands. Dropping the whip before desensitizing will teach them it is something to fear and that it is not something there to help, that when the whip comes out they need to run and they cant trust someone holding one, they do not see it as an aid or tool. When I free/loose lunge I walk up with the whip and my free hand forward put my hand on the nose and then rub the side and rump with the whip. This is the same *rub the slap away* concept most trainers I have worked with use. It shows that it is a tool that it can be scary and does mean something but that it is not there to hurt them unless they cross the lines they know are there.

As for putting her loose in the round pen I generally first work them with something soft that they are use to before introducing the whip...usually a lead rope. To get them use to the ideas of what I am asking and then tell them they have to work with it when using the whip. 

To the point of leaving a horse without food. Many *cowboy trainers* out here have a rule that if a horse cant be broke and "Learn Respect" in one day, that they bully and get aggressive or that they have to much fight. they will leave a horse without food for three days many times without water as well. Do I agree with this practice? No however every horse that i have worked with that was trained this way had NO ulster issues or gained any bad habits/feelings because of it. Yes, in my opinion, it is a "I'm going to force you do to what I want and since you didnt do it the easy way or quick enough you're going to have to deal with the hard way" thought pattern and wrong. It is meant to weaken, break the spirit and make them fence posts (what I call dead broke horses that will sit there while a mountain lion jumps on their back).

I personally strongly believe in separation training. A horse relies on the herd and lead mare/dam this is a proven behavioral fact, since y'all want to get in on the science assumptions of the matter. Separating a horse and making them rely on you for food and water does teach them the valuable lesson of how to trust *respect* you.

Another point I would like to ad is that they are three times our size they do NOT have to *respect* you. In my opinion working with a horse is singularly based on trust. The wanting to understand each other comes after a bond of trust is born. Yes a semblance of respect is developed but without trust you have no respect, you have force taught behavior. I guess I feel that people mistake the need of trust with the demand of respect. Respect to us is herd order/dominance to them. A dominant mare will push out a horses that has done something wrong as a punishment, they are not allowed in the heard to graze and be protected. Not until the mare stops pushing them out and starts to ignore them may they rejoin the herd. This is dominance of the mare and yes you can say a respect for the pecking order.

As for possibilities of how to work with her. If you have a stick (stick and string type) I would bring it with you when ever you go to collect her from the corral. If she walks on your heals or ahead of you stop and ask her to back first by wiggling the lead or however you prefer to ask and second my swinging the stick in front of you as you are facing her asking her to back until you have to start hitting her legs with it. Not hard just a loose swing, enough that she'l feel it. If she starts pulling back stop make her back until she stops and then turn her in a circle, I typically will stand just behind the shoulder and ask to move her hip. These things will help with leading and moving over however I would still work on ground manners of moving to pressure, lifting feet, leaving personal space, etc.

When introducing the round pen I usually start with whatever other ground work I had done previously (picking up feet, backing, circles, etc) then add pushing out. To me the idea of free lunging and join up are the same and if you do not make sure the horse turns in, like in a join up, you are just asking for trouble. Turning out is a sign of "disrespect" and you are more likely to get kicked in the head.

Glad to hear that you have had some improvement and I hope they only keep coming your way. Be careful with you knee its not worth costing more money and time in surgeries to prove a point to a horse that still has time to wait. Also good to know that you ended it on a good note.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I read through all this and I have a theory. This horse's behavior, while being a little pushy, *suddenly* went over the top. She is also a two year old FILLY. A few posters mentioned possible pain. 

While the horse may need to learn respect and so forth I wonder if she is in pain from having a VERY LARGE FOLLICLE and is/was in heat. This is the end of the season for horses coming IN season in the middle of the northern Hemisphere. Sometimes a horse will develop an extremely large Follicle as the "last one" of the season and it can be, in some mares and fillies, quite painful. 

I am going to toss this into the mix.. Could your Filly have been in heat and very close to ovulating for the couple of days she was being so difficult? 

Might explain a lot.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Nuala said:


> I did not read ALL the posts so if I repeat someone else I apologize.
> 
> As for using a wipe or bailing wire ore nothing...the only thing that is different is using nothing and can also be more dangerous.* I prefer to use a long lunge whip...this offers me the distance I prefer and with proper training a horse should simply see it as an extension of your arm. I personally only ever snap skin when they have done something unforgivable (kicked out at me, turned away from me, etc) However I* must say I do not agree with "dropping the whip and giving loves" If you have to take that approach that if fine but I prefer approaching with the whip out to the side and slightly ahead of me and *desensitizing* with the whip not my hands. Dropping the whip before desensitizing will teach them it is something to fear and that it is not something there to help, that when the whip comes out they need to run and they cant trust someone holding one, they do not see it as an aid or tool. When I free/loose lunge I walk up with the whip and my free hand forward put my hand on the nose and then rub the side and rump with the whip. This is the same *rub the slap away* concept most trainers I have worked with use. It shows that it is a tool that it can be scary and does mean something but that it is not there to hurt them unless they cross the lines they know are there.
> 
> ...


 Some great points.
I do think its important to have a horse totally used to being handled before it gets into a lunge or roundpen situation because by then its already built up trust in the handler - or should have done
I like to introduce any horse I am going to lunge to the whip before it gets lunged - if they dont ever see it as a weapon but as you say - an extension of my arm then the results are much better - I dont want a horse galloping frantically around I want calmness as the next step in its education so it will listen to me
One Youtube trainer stated that turning away from you didn't matter - it matters a huge amount and its not what you want - particularly if you have the horse on a lunge line, but if the horse is turning away from you its essentially avoiding you/telling you to '**** off'
When I was a child and my uncle used to have a group of maybe 8 3 year olds come in that had been rounded up from the New Forest and put through the sales the first thing that happened to them is that they were split up and put into stalls and other than daily turnout into a small corral type area they stayed in those stalls until they were good to handle, riding on nicely and able to be easily caught. They became individuals and not herd members
*Elana* - I too think this mare had other issues going on - most likely related to being in season. It can even cause colic like symptoms in some mares


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I suspect she is terrified of being separated from the others who are in the barn. A young horse away from the others is in dread fear of a predator showing up. We know one won't but they have survived for thousands of years with this thinking. Can you bring another horse out and tie it near the pen? You need to begin your work either inside her stall or outside, in a chair while you read. Just be there for her but basically pay her no mind. When your mind is elsewhere it becomes like a magnet to her. Try doing this for a week. Clean your tack outside her stall. You want her to begin seeing you in more of a leadership roll.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

> I too think this mare had other issues going on - most likely related to being in season. It can even cause colic like symptoms in some mares


Yup. Sometimes at the end of the season and at the beginning of the season they can get a giant follicle that sits there for awhile... and is very painful for some mares. Eventually it ruptures and releases an egg (usually non viable) or it may receded w/o rupturing.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I think it's possible that she could have been in heat, but she's still a little stinker and tries silly things.

I finally got her to flex laterally without backing up all over the pen. She finally stands still and gives to the pressure.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

So, the only update I have is that me and my parents agree that as long as you dont go into the roundpen or try to lunge her at all, she's fine. I'm fine with this, lunging and round-penning isn't a necessity to train a horse. 
So, we saddled her in a medium sized corral, and she didn't bat an eye at it. She actually though she should maybe chew on the stirrups when I got her flexing. Little stinker. 

Anywho, I've been taking her for walks around the yard and stuff with the saddle on and working on in-hand manoeuvres. (backing up mostly...)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It does help to lunge a horse for breaking and maybe comes in handy later on but there are other ways to 'skin a cat' and if your horse has had some sort of a bad experience in the past thats causing the reaction then I would go ahead and work him the way that siuts you all best - after all he's for riding not running around a pen.
I had one horse that was a bit like yours and he was never lunged but we still got him broke for riding and he was a great all round horse, I also had one horse that would never lunge on left - he would hurl himself on the ground and rear up and go over backwards so we decided to give up on it yet he also was a great riding horse - worked on both reins under saddle no problem and did showjumping and dressage very well so I cant see that he lost out in any way.
Good luck with the progress.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

I've read most of the posts, but some of what's being said reminds me of a video taken in Pakistan I believe of a horse who fought back!
Go to YOUTUBE and search under: ANIMAL ATTACK - horse attacks guy in retaliation! 
This is crazy, the horse (pony) was under so much pressure (they're beating it with stones I believe) from these men that it went berserk and attacked them.....I hate to think what happened to the horse afterwards
I personally haven't seen a horse 'attack' in a round pen incident or anything similar. I have seen them attack randomly, no pressure at all because they were sour in the barn and extremely fit (in a herd, the fittest and strongest wins and leads) and I found that the fitter the horses would get, the more extreme their behaviour would become......albeit they were racehorses, no necessarily bred for temperment.
I've had horses back up on me or turn their butts to me on the longe line, usually young horses who are just confused with what im asking them to do, usually in those cases I would drive them away from my with the longe whip (occasionally they got popped because they started backing up on me......not safe!) but as soon as they moved I would remove eye contact, lower my whip or arm and relax....and there fore they would relax too.

I think you've made some progress, and I'm glad you had a better day


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Muppetgirl said:


> the horse (pony) was under so much pressure (they're beating it with stones I believe) from these men that it went berserk and attacked them.....


It's called 'defensive aggression' & yes, while most horses are submissive enough to put up with hard treatment, some are labled 'vicious' or 'unbreakable' because they fight back. Big problem with dogs too, & the animal usually pays the ultimate price for it. One reason I think it's best to use non-confrontational methods where possible & ensure when you do need those sort of tactics, to appreciate fully how the *horse* is understanding it all.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Clinton Anderson just recently did a TV show where he went to a lady's place to video her and her horse that would chase her out of the round pen. This horse REALLY chased her out and meant to kill her if he had caught her. He almost got her as she bailed over the RP fence.

It took CA about 30 minutes to show the horse who was the boss and what he (the horse) was supposed to do and how he was supposed to do it. 

Then, the next 2 days was spent with him teaching the lady how to 'read' the horse and how to step into the horse instead of back away from him.

There are just some horses that only let you step back a few times before they charge you. I took in many of them when I trained for the public. None had been abused. They had just all learned to be aggressive when their owners had backed away at the wrong time instead of stepping up and making the horse move back.

There is an old saying: "He who moves his feet first, loses!"


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I've had aggressive horses who were just that because they'd learnt how to dominate and pick up on fear and the way that Clinton approached that horse (I also watched that) is the only way to deal with them. When I first got the arab even after being gelded he was still much the same, it took one good wack with a hefty stick to show him who was in charge. he never tried to attack me again but I would never turn my back on him.
I have also had horses that have been abused and turned defensive. If you hit them it only makes them worse so its more about dealing with them in a non-confrontational way while still not allowing the kicking and biting its easier to try to not get into the situations that provoke it and building up their trust in people again. 
Its important to be able to recognise which type of horse you are dealing with


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