# True white horse



## DancingArabian

The gene for albino doesn't exist in horses. For a horse to be an albino it would have to have pink eyes, among other things. The horses in the pictures have brown/blue eyes.

That's all I know on color so someone else will chime in for the rest!
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## DraftyAiresMum

The foals that don't live to term or only live for 48 hours are called LWOS foals. This stands for Lethal White Overo Syndrome. These foals are from the mating of two horses who are have the frame gene. It has nothing to do with albinism.

Cremellos and perlinos are the product of two horses who carry the cream gene (palominos, buckskins, smoky blacks, etc) and are called double dilutes. Two copies of the cream gene equals a cremello or perlino, depending on the base coat color. The shade that the double dilute horse appears to be depends on other genetics expressions (same as why chestnuts are different shades).
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## kenda

Dominant white - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are a group of genes called Dominant White that can cause anything from white spotting to an entirely white horse. The horse will have pink skin, white fur and dark eyes. This is not albinoism as evidenced by the lack of pink eyes. Albinoism, to my knowledge, has never been found in horses. The gene that causes the foals to die within 48 hours is the frame gene in homozygous form.

The difference between a cremello and a dominant white horse is the genes at play. A cremello/perlino/smoky cream is the result of two copies of the cream gene diluting the base coat colour. A dominant white horse can be born any colour and then, much like with grey horses, white-out as it grows. The difference is the genes that cause the colour change. As well, grey horses have dark pigmented skin, dominant whites have pink skin.


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## Lonestar22

White horses are the result of another (or multiple) gene acting upon their true color. Horses have a base color of red or black. Then the other dilutes come into play to give us the variety of coat colors that we see. 

So where you see a "white" horse, you're actually looking at a red or black base colored horse with several other color genes acting upon it. Such as sabino, splash, tobiano, or overo. These genes expressed in their maximum form can make a horse look completely white.

The cream gene acts on both base color horses, but will be expressed differently depending on if it is homozygous (2 copies) or heterozygous (1 copy). A cremello is the result of a chestnut with homozygous cream. A perlino is a bay with homozygous cream. 

Frame overo in it's homozygous form is lethal for the foal carrying it. This is why you must never breed two frame carrier together. Frame is a dominant gene and will create a homozygous foal aka a dead foal. 

There is also dominant white, which I do not know much about. I believe that it cannot be homozygous or it will terminate in embryo. Dominant white causes de-pigmentation of the skin and hair. I think they are the only horses considered to be 'true white' but I could be wrong.


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## Reno Bay

Jalter said:


> I know albino horses are near impossible to produce. *Not near. Are impossible. Albino horses do not exist.* If they do live to term, it's for no longer than 48 hours because the same gene causes the failure of an organ to fully develop (somewhere in the gastrointestinal tract). Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I remember. *That is a completely different gene from albino. What you are thinking of is frame overo, where when heterozygous (OO) a foal does not develop a complete digestive tract.*
> 
> What genes cause a 'true white' horse? What is the difference between a true white and albino? *Albinos of any animal have pink skin and pink eyes (caused by depigmentation - the pink coloring of the eye is really you being able to see the capillaries and vessels in the eye. True white doesn't really exist in horses either, unless you want to count Dominant White which is a pink-skinned, white-haired, brown-eyed horse.*
> 
> Also, I am somewhat familiar with perlinos and creamellos, but how are they different from true whites? *Perlino is two cream genes diluting a bay/brown horse - cremello is two cream genes diluting a chestnut horse. They are not white, but very very light colored.* Most that I've seen are a creamy color, but some are definitely white. How do you know the difference between one of those and a true white? *The only horse I would consider "true white" would be Dominant White, but even that's a stretch because Dominant White doesn't always cause all-white horses.*


Yeah, pretty much what everyone else said.


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## Jalter

Reno Bay said:


> Yeah, pretty much what everyone else said.


Thanks everyone. Never claimed to be an expert in genetics haha. Still trying to figure it out. Apparently the information I was given was way off ****.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Jalter said:


> Thanks everyone. Never claimed to be an expert in genetics haha. Still trying to figure it out. Apparently the information I was given was way off ****.


Unfortunately, a lot of what people are given as the "gospel truth" regarding horse colors/genetics is antiquated and incorrect.
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## Skunkworks

off-topic but that Thoroughbred (?) would scare the holy freck out of me if I had to go out into the pasture at night.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Palomino = sorrel base 1 cream gene.
Cremello = sorrel base 2 cream genes. Appears light to creamy gold and blue eyes.









Buckskin = bay (agouiti) base 1 cream gene.
Perlino = bay (agouiti) base 2 cream genes. Also creamy gold color but black legs, mane, tail, are darker often orangey color. Cream does not dilute black pigment well. Also has the blue eyes.









Smokey black = black horse and 1 cream gene. No visible effect except horse may sunfade more.
Smokey cream = black horse with two cream genes. A lot that I have seen have an orangey hue about them. 









Dominant white and sabino are two very similar genes which have similar genetic origins. It can sometimes be hard to tell the difference between the two unless genetic testing is done. Both these genes can cause a horse to be all white or nearly white to roan-like patches on the body. I do know that sabino likes to keep pigment around the eyes even if the horse is all white or has another white pattern there, this gives the eyeliner around the eyes. This is my max sabino pepper. He is almost completely white except for the inside of his ears. The outside of his ears, his neck, chest, shoulders, and hindquarters have red ticking and any where that pigmented hair is comes with black skin. Pepper is mostly pink skined except where the ticking is which has mottled black spots. This often confuses people and many max sabino's are mistaken as Appaloosas. Notice that the gene does not remove colored hair from the inner ear. Pepper was born a Medicine Hat paint.

































Now max sabino's and dominant whites can have blue eyes as well. Blue eyes are caused by being a double dilute (2 cream) and frame and splash white genes. Frame in his homozygous form = 100% death. Horses with frame or splashed white don't have to have blue eyes though but they have the possibily when inherited in the womb. Now your probably well they can all have blue eyes. In my experience double dilutes blue eye and paint blue eyes have a different hue to them. I'll try to get a visual for you.


Typical jagged horizontal irregular frame markings.









The smooth dipped in paint looking splash markings.









Let me know if I'm wrong somewhere or missed anything.
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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Double dilute horses typically have a pale blue baby blue hue about them.










Blue eyes caused by frame and splash have a vibrant sky blue color to them.









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## EmilyJoy

I have never ever seen a horse like this! That is so pretty! Do you know what the horse's name was? Doesn't appear to be bad on the confo. either.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

EmilyJoy said:


> I have never ever seen a horse like this! That is so pretty! Do you know what the horse's name was? Doesn't appear to be bad on the confo. either.


I found out for you that is gamblin' man.

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## verona1016

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Double dilute horses typically have a pale blue baby blue hue about them.
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> Blue eyes caused by frame and splash have a vibrant sky blue color to them.
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> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You beat me to it 

Double dilutes can also have a greenish hue to the eyes as well:









The way I see it, a "white" horse is white because of one of 3 effects:
- Graying. These horses are born any other base color, and gray out over time, eventually becoming solid white. Their skin remains the same color it was, though- gray under colored areas, and pink under any white markings that were there at birth.

- Pinto patterns. Maximum sabino, dominant white, etc. are examples of pinto horses that essentially covered in one giant white spot. The hair is completely white, and the skin underneath is an unpigmented pink. They may have dark eyes, or they might have vibrant blue eyes (the frame and splash pinto patterns will sometimes produce blue eyes like this)

- Double dilutes/psueo double dilutes. Horses with two cream genes are considered double dilutes- the base color has been affected with a "double dose" of dilution producing anything from white to a very pale shade of the base coat. The skin is pink, but is still lightly pigmented. Horses with a cream gene + another dilution gene (like champagne or pearl) can have a very similar appearance to double cream dilutes and are often called pseudo double dilutes.

Oh, and there are some appaloosas that are essentially completely white, too. But appaloosa still confuses me


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

verona1016 said:


> You beat me to it
> 
> Double dilutes can also have a greenish hue to the eyes as well:
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> The way I see it, a "white" horse is white because of one of 3 effects:
> - Graying. These horses are born any other base color, and gray out over time, eventually becoming solid white. Their skin remains the same color it was, though- gray under colored areas, and pink under any white markings that were there at birth.
> 
> - Pinto patterns. Maximum sabino, dominant white, etc. are examples of pinto horses that essentially covered in one giant white spot. The hair is completely white, and the skin underneath is an unpigmented pink. They may have dark eyes, or they might have vibrant blue eyes (the frame and splash pinto patterns will sometimes produce blue eyes like this)
> 
> - Double dilutes/psueo double dilutes. Horses with two cream genes are considered double dilutes- the base color has been affected with a "double dose" of dilution producing anything from white to a very pale shade of the base coat. The skin is pink, but is still lightly pigmented. Horses with a cream gene + another dilution gene (like champagne or pearl) can have a very similar appearance to double cream dilutes and are often called pseudo double dilutes.
> 
> Oh, and there are some appaloosas that are essentially completely white, too. But appaloosa still confuses me


Thank you got the stuff I missed 
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## enh817

According to this testing facility -- Pearl Dilution (Barlink Factor)- Horse Coat Color DNA Testing
Pearl is it's own gene, separate from Cream. SO, I suppose that means all horses with two cream genes should be called cremello and the term "perlino' reserved for horses which carry two pearl genes? That could get quite confusing though, I suppose, since the two genes manifest similar looks, when homozygous.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

enh817 said:


> According to this testing facility -- Pearl Dilution (Barlink Factor)- Horse Coat Color DNA Testing
> Pearl is it's own gene, separate from Cream. SO, I suppose that means all horses with two cream genes should be called cremello and the term "perlino' reserved for horses which carry two pearl genes? That could get quite confusing though, I suppose, since the two genes manifest similar looks, when homozygous.


Noooooo. Pearl is completely different from Perlino. Pearl needs two copies or another dilution to effect coat color. A Perlino is a bay horse with two cream genes. A buckskin is bay with one cream gene to clarify the difference. Pearl is a completely different dilution seperate from cream, dun, champagne, and silver.
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## RunWalk

EmilyJoy said:


> I have never ever seen a horse like this! That is so pretty! Do you know what the horse's name was? Doesn't appear to be bad on the confo. either.


Hitler 'stasche?


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## existentialpony

RunWalk said:


> Hitler 'stasche?


I am SO glad that I am NOT the only person who thought this!!! :lol: I didn't want to comment.


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## Chiilaa

enh817 said:


> According to this testing facility -- Pearl Dilution (Barlink Factor)- Horse Coat Color DNA Testing
> Pearl is it's own gene, separate from Cream. SO, I suppose that means all horses with two cream genes should be called cremello and the term "perlino' reserved for horses which carry two pearl genes? That could get quite confusing though, I suppose, since the two genes manifest similar looks, when homozygous.


As Peppy pointed out, perlino doesn't refer to anything to do with pearl. However, pearl and cream ARE related. They are both mutations on the same locus. This means that a horse cannot be homozygous for cream while carrying a pearl gene, and the reverse.


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## tabasco

The first horse is a FriesianxAWHR "Ice" He is a Dominant White. 

That Thoroughbred is The White Fox, and he is also a Dominant White.


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## Jalter

Rare Horse Colors

This is where I got the impression that lethal overo horses and albinos are the same (plus what a few other people said).
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## Chiilaa

Jalter said:


> Rare Horse Colors
> 
> This is where I got the impression that lethal overo horses and albinos are the same (plus what a few other people said).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


*shakes head* That website is riddled with incorrect information. A good place to start is here: Horse Color Genetics | Equine Color Genetics . Go through the galleries, read everything you can, and proceed to learn


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## Jalter

Thanks Chiilaa 
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## stevenson

if there is no Albino in horses, what is with the Albino horse registry ? and also when I was a kid, my next door neighbor had this Huge white horse, pink skin , pink eye on side and the other side was a mix of pink and light light barely blue. He would stay under cover in the summer as he would sunburn


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## NdAppy

No, true albinos do not exist in horses. It has been proven over and over again scientifically. If the horse you saw and you remember looking like that, I would guess that there was something medically wrong with it's eyes and not an albino

A true albino wouldn't have any blue in it's eyes anyways, the eyes would have been red, not pink.

The "albino registry" was started (in 1917) before there was the genetic knowledge of horses colors that there is today. The name has since been changed (in 1980) since they now know there are no albino horses.


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## cowgirl4753

Just wanted to say, peppy barrel racing, that was a great read. Very well broken down and easy to follow. Thank you! Cleared a few things up for me!
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## Peppy Barrel Racing

cowgirl4753 said:


> Just wanted to say, peppy barrel racing, that was a great read. Very well broken down and easy to follow. Thank you! Cleared a few things up for me!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you! I like dilutes and white horses 
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## cowgirl4753

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Thank you! I like dilutes and white horses
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have a dilute at home, but only a single on a chestnut base (lol palomino) lol and a screwy dun that I will have to post a thread on and see what u all think of him, but that's a convo for another day!
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## Peppy Barrel Racing

cowgirl4753 said:


> I have a dilute at home, but only a single on a chestnut base (lol palomino) lol and a screwy dun that I will have to post a thread on and see what u all think of him, but that's a convo for another day!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Post that dun I wanna see !!!!
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## cowgirl4753

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Post that dun I wanna see !!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My darn phone won't let me post pics, so have to wait till the hubby comes home next week with the computer. Just hard getting decent pics in the winter
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## Peppy Barrel Racing

cowgirl4753 said:


> My darn phone won't let me post pics, so have to wait till the hubby comes home next week with the computer. Just hard getting decent pics in the winter
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you have a smart phone use photobucket and then use the IMG codes to post pics. That's how I post with my phone.
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## cowgirl4753

Thanks I will try and see if I can get a thread together for him.
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## cowgirl4753

Does this work?
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## Peppy Barrel Racing

cowgirl4753 said:


> Does this work?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not sure why it didn't. Script might be messed up
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## cowgirl4753

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## cowgirl4753

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Not sure why it didn't. Script might be messed up
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Mmmm :-(
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## cowgirl4753




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## Peppy Barrel Racing

cowgirl4753 said:


>


Looks like a Dunalino 
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## cowgirl4753

Nope lol, now that I figured out how to put up pics I will try and get a thread going so you can see all the pics!
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## Peppy Barrel Racing

cowgirl4753 said:


> Nope lol, now that I figured out how to put up pics I will try and get a thread going so you can see all the pics!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can wait to see more pics of her. When you post tell us what color the parents are that will help determine color. I'm very curious.
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## amberly

kenda said:


> There are a group of genes called Dominant White that can cause anything from white spotting to an entirely white horse. The horse will have pink skin, white fur and dark eyes. This is not albinoism as evidenced by the lack of pink eyes.


I have a horse like this. He has pink skin, blue eyes, and is entirely white. He is a white, not a cremello. He has no signs of any golden or yellow color in him. I just let people go with cremello because they are convinced that there is no such thing as a white horse. 

The only reason Brisco is registered as a cremello in his papers, is because they didn't give us the choice of "other" or "white." 

Brisco is 21 will be 22 and is a very happy and healthy horse!! And is probably black right now because he is addicted to mud. haha!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

amberly said:


> I have a horse like this. He has pink skin, blue eyes, and is entirely white. He is a white, not a cremello. He has no signs of any golden or yellow color in him. I just let people go with cremello because they are convinced that there is no such thing as a white horse.
> 
> The only reason Brisco is registered as a cremello in his papers, is because they didn't give us the choice of "other" or "white."
> 
> Brisco is 21 will be 22 and is a very happy and healthy horse!! And is probably black right now because he is addicted to mud. haha!


My white horse is registered as a red roan Overo. Paper colors are starting to get better though.
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## cowgirl4753

Got the thread up peppy, its under dun???
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## Jalter

What about 'Kholor by Design'? he is supposedly dominant white, but has one blue eye and one half blue eye.
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## Peppy Barrel Racing

A horse can have multiple white genes which I stated earlier so he is dominate white and splash or frame or both.
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## kassierae

amberly said:


> I have a horse like this. He has pink skin, blue eyes, and is entirely white. He is a white, not a cremello. He has no signs of any golden or yellow color in him. I just let people go with cremello because they are convinced that there is no such thing as a white horse.
> 
> The only reason Brisco is registered as a cremello in his papers, is because they didn't give us the choice of "other" or "white."
> 
> Brisco is 21 will be 22 and is a very happy and healthy horse!! And is probably black right now because he is addicted to mud. haha!


I still think your horse IS a cremello. You can clearly see what looks like a blaze on his face.


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## Eira

Since no one mentioned it, it's also possible for a double dilute (cremello/perlino) to be gray. Basically looks just like a double dilute with pink skin and blue eyes but the coat eventually looses the cream pigment and turns "white".


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

amberly said:


> I have a horse like this. He has pink skin, blue eyes, and is entirely white. He is a white, not a cremello. He has no signs of any golden or yellow color in him. I just let people go with cremello because they are convinced that there is no such thing as a white horse.
> 
> The only reason Brisco is registered as a cremello in his papers, is because they didn't give us the choice of "other" or "white."
> 
> Brisco is 21 will be 22 and is a very happy and healthy horse!! And is probably black right now because he is addicted to mud. haha!


Amberly what color were your horses parents and can I see a picture of one of his eyes. There is a difference between dilute eyes and blue eyes created by splash and frame. From the pictures in your barn honestly he looks cremello not dominant white or sabino.


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## amberly

The pictures in my barn aren't very good photos. I am going back out today and will take (hopefully) better photos and some of his eyes. 

The definition of a white horse: a horse that is born white and dies white. 

You may believe whatever you like, but I assure you he is a white.


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## Golden Horse

amberly said:


> The definition of a white horse: a horse that is born white and dies white.


As in Lethal White?



amberly said:


> You may believe whatever you like, but I assure you he is a white.


If he is white then his blaze is what color, seeing as it is evident and a whiter color than his coat?


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

amberly said:


> The pictures in my barn aren't very good photos. I am going back out today and will take (hopefully) better photos and some of his eyes.
> 
> The definition of a white horse: a horse that is born white and dies white.
> 
> You may believe whatever you like, but I assure you he is a white.


What colors were your horses parents? As for the definition of a dominant white and max sabino though they are mostly white MANY have some pigmented areas of black skin mottling where they have or had some pigments enter hair like on pepper you can see the mottled black skin on his bum, ears, shoulders. You can see examples in the pics I posted. Looking forward to more pics of your boy!
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## amberly

Golden Horse said:


> If he is white then his blaze is what color, seeing as it is evident and a whiter color than his coat?


He doesn't have a blaze. As I said, those photos aren't very good. I edited them when I had not idea what I was doing - but they were the best I had at the time. I am leaving now to go to the horses.

But his face color is the same as his body color, it may be a little pinker though, because his body hair has more air than his face hair.

haha! But I am not trying to make you believe me, I am only stating my opinion, nothing is wrong with that!!


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## MsBHavin

amberly said:


> haha! But I am not trying to make you believe me, I am only stating my opinion, nothing is wrong with that!!


Sure there is, misinformation can be very harmful.

You've been stating that you will get pictures of him for months now, you keep insisting that he's a rare breed but you can't/won't give us more information on that either.


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## Jalter

MsBHavin said:


> Sure there is, misinformation can be very harmful


Exactly. I have plenty of examples of misinformation being bad. Hell, my vet gave me bad information. I continued to ride my horse with a sore back, thinking it was attitude issues, because the vet said he was perfectly fine. Sure, coat colors and vet info is a big jumo, but either way. This is a learning forum, and it has been scientifically proven that there is technically no 'white' horses, so misinformation may confuse people.
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## amberly

I have uploaded photos of Brisco AND Golley just this moment. I just got back from my horses. I am still getting information on the Blazer breed, because My mom can't find the papers.

But I was only stating an opinion - opinions aren't right and they aren't wrong either. So, they can't be false information because they weren't necessarily FACTS.

Blazer's are NOT a rare breed, I never said they were either. They are just not very well known. In my Breed thread, I never even mention the word 'rare,' so I'm not quite sure where you got that from.


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## kassierae

That, is a very textbook cremello, IMO. His eyes are almost perfect "cremello blue". Not pinto genes.


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## jumanji321

Opinions can be based on false information though.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

amberly your horse is NOT dominant white or maximum sabino he is as his papers say a Cremello I have zero doubt in my mind. Those are typical cremello eyes to a T. Cremello is still a great color too very pretty a sorrel horse that inherited two cream genes and can look very similar to dominant white horses not all have a golden hue to them. I love dilutes . 

I posted this earlier but I'll do it again.
Cremello eyes come in two shades a soft blue








and light greenish eyes like your horse and there is blue white pattern caused eyes underneath for comparison 









blue eyes caused by frame or splash are a vibrant blue


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## Poseidon

Amberly, if you'd really like to prove us here all wrong, you could spare $25 and have him tested for cream. Animal Genetics


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## Chiilaa

As I said before, definitely cremello IMO. I did offer a comparison of two horses to see if you could spot the cremello based on your "not golden" criteria, but you never answered. 



















According to your criteria, the top guy would be cremello, and the bottom guy white, yes?


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## haviris

I guess it depends on your definition of a white horse, I consider a horse that is completely white (pink skin, white fur) to be white, no matter what his genetics say (he could easily be genetically a grulla, but if there is no color (or very, very little), what difference does that make?), genetics would only matter if I was going to breed the horse. Now to be clear I do not think genetics are unimportant, but to me it's like a sorrel/chestnut w/ agouti, or a black w/ cream, a bay w/ red, etc. if I can't see it or don't plan to breed the horse, knowing this doesn't change the fact that the horse is sorrel/chestnut, black, or bay. A gray horse is gray, he may have started out bay/grulla/buckskin/dun/black/ or purple with green polka dots, in the end he's just gray. I feel the same about a white horse. 

My neighbor had a white horse with brown eyes, she had a foal that was white w/ blue eyes, no idea what their genetics would say they were, I never saw any color at all on them. To me they were both just white.

So maybe there are no such thing as white horses, but there are horses that are white!

That said cremello is not white, cremello is cremello! I couldn't find the pics of Brisco, but I'm currious what's so bad about him being cremello? Knowing the color of his parents would be very helpful, but I'm guessing you don't know what color they are? Since the question has been asked atleast a few times and you haven't bothered to answer? My cremello looks VERY white! I can't destinguish any white markings because he's so white looking, but I've only owned him through winter, we'll see if his color darkens any when he sheds out for summer. But he is a cremello! 

Of course I'm guilty as anyone when it comes to curriousity, if I was in a similar situation as Amberly, w/a horse others swore was one color and I was convienced was another, that could be easily proven w/ a test (and I had the cash) I think I'd have to have it done, just to either prove to myself and others that I was right, or to find out once and for all if I was wrong. I've had passing curriousities about my colt (destined to be a gelding), I know what color he is, but I wonder if he's homozygous for dun? Or black? I know my mare's color genetics, and there are times I'll see another horse that I really like, or is an attractive color (mare's or geldings generally), and I think, if I bred that horse to my mare the baby would be x_____ or x_______ or whatever, it's just fun!

Just my take on it.


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## amberly

Well, just to clear things up a little - I'm an NOT tryin to convince anyone, haha! It's just what I think. Sorry for all the commotion I caused too, lol.


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## LoveMyDrummerBoy

haviris said:


> I guess it depends on your definition of a white horse, I consider a horse that is completely white (pink skin, white fur) to be white, no matter what his genetics say (he could easily be genetically a grulla, but if there is no color (or very, very little), what difference does that make?), genetics would only matter if I was going to breed the horse. Now to be clear I do not think genetics are unimportant, but to me it's like a sorrel/chestnut w/ agouti, or a black w/ cream, a bay w/ red, etc. if I can't see it or don't plan to breed the horse, knowing this doesn't change the fact that the horse is sorrel/chestnut, black, or bay. A gray horse is gray, he may have started out bay/grulla/buckskin/dun/black/ or purple with green polka dots, in the end he's just gray. I feel the same about a white horse.


The argument is not about your opinion, it is about the correct terminology of a phenotype demonstrated in what you would call "white".

The difference that it makes is that genetics tells you exactly what you are looking at, without question.


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## Shoebox

Chiilaa said:


> As I said before, definitely cremello IMO. I did offer a comparison of two horses to see if you could spot the cremello based on your "not golden" criteria, but you never answered.
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> According to your criteria, the top guy would be cremello, and the bottom guy white, yes?


Because she's not answering and I am curious, yes - VISUALLY the top looks Cremello and the bottom looks White. What are they really? Both Cremellos? I'm not a fan of Cremello horses, really, but I love the bottom guy...

I am dumb when it comes to horse genetics - I've always heard that a white horse can not exist. But now... True White an Dominant White... So much to take in! This thread is very interesting to me.


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## amberly

I am not going to participate in this conversation anymore because honestly, I think it's silly. It's all my opinion yet some of you still try to (what seems like) prove me wrong. I am not proving anyone wrong, nor do I want to.


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## nvr2many

subbing


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## NdAppy

Amberly then your best bet is to quit bringing up your "white" horse, more so in the genetics forum...


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

amberly said:


> Well, just to clear things up a little - I'm an NOT tryin to convince anyone, haha! It's just what I think. Sorry for all the commotion I caused too, lol.


As a person who owns a dominant white or max sabino, a horse I see everyday. The is an obvious difference between my white horse and yours. I'll tell you again he is cremello, whether your accept it or not doesnt change it . Nothing wrong with a cremello I think it's cooler than an all white paint/pinto. There is a difference between your horses "white" and my horses white. It's obvious to us but I guess if you don't want to accept that he's cremello I guess it doesn't hurt anything lol. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> What colors were your horses parents? As for the definition of a dominant white and max sabino though they are mostly white MANY have some pigmented areas of black skin mottling where they have or had some pigments enter hair like on pepper you can see the mottled black skin on his bum, ears, shoulders. You can see examples in the pics I posted. Looking forward to more pics of your boy!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


From the pictures you posted of your boy, I'm guessing that's what my vet meant when he asked if Red's color was why I named him Red and that he wouldn't be surprised if he grayed out. Makes me sad to think about, I love his color. How long did it take for that to happen? Red has the same black spots on his bum.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Whisper22 said:


> From the pictures you posted of your boy, I'm guessing that's what my vet meant when he asked if Red's color was why I named him Red and that he wouldn't be surprised if he grayed out. Makes me sad to think about, I love his color. How long did it take for that to happen? Red has the same black spots on his bum.


By the time pepper was 2 his Medicine Hat "roaned" it and the ticking became less and his red mane became white but forelock stayed red. By the time he was 5 the red forelock became almost white with some red and now at 13 his forelock just has some red strands like his mane. The inner ear stayed red. Yours has some more red than pepper does he might keep a bit more. Your horse doesn't have any grey parents correct?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> By the time pepper was 2 his Medicine Hat "roaned" it and the ticking became less and his red mane became white but forelock stayed red. By the time he was 5 the red forelock became almost white with some red and now at 13 his forelock just has some red strands like his mane. The inner ear stayed red. Yours has some more red than pepper does he might keep a bit more.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's good, at the least I'll have a few years to enjoy his color, and crossing my fingers that he doesn't lose it at all.


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## nvr2many

I think he is beautiful! And definitely not white, :lol:


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## Whisper22

nvr2many said:


> I think he is beautiful! And definitely not white, :lol:


If you're referring to Red, thank you. He looks a mess right now but this was taken a few months ago, before he grew his winter coat.


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## nvr2many

Whisper22 said:


> If you're referring to Red, thank you. He looks a mess right now but this was taken a few months ago, before he grew his winter coat.


Yes I was! And your welcome. I love his coloring just the way it is. But am sure he will be just as handsome if it changes.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

nvr2many said:


> I think he is beautiful! And definitely not white, :lol:


Her horse is max sabino or dominant white. He may or may not lose he red hairs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Your horse doesn't have any grey parents correct?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I glanced right over this question before sorry. His mom is a bay roan sabino, she's in the background in the picture. He was a surprise foal after I bought his mom, so the father is unknown.


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## Poseidon

From the picture, I'm guessing his dam is actually only bay sabino. Sabino causes roaning like that, same with your colt, who would most likely only be chestnut sabino and not red roan sabino, as most would call him.


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## Whisper22

I call her roan because her body is pretty much solid roan color with only a few small white spots and then her face obviously gives her away as a sabino. I wouldn't consider red a roan at all. I've posted a better picture of Sky.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

Whisper22 said:


> I call her roan because her body is pretty much solid roan color with only a few small white spots and then her face obviously gives her away as a sabino. I wouldn't consider red a roan at all. I've posted a better picture of Sky.


She looks true roan to me the picture quality isn't great put she appears to have the upside down V's on the front legs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy

She's not true roan PBR. She's Sabino Roan. Sabino caused roan is very good at mimicking true roan.


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## Chiilaa

Shoebox said:


> Because she's not answering and I am curious, yes - VISUALLY the top looks Cremello and the bottom looks White. What are they really? Both Cremellos? I'm not a fan of Cremello horses, really, but I love the bottom guy...
> 
> I am dumb when it comes to horse genetics - I've always heard that a white horse can not exist. But now... True White an Dominant White... So much to take in! This thread is very interesting to me.


The two pictures are of the same stallion, just at different times of year/day. He is definitely a cremello


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

NdAppy said:


> She's not true roan PBR. She's Sabino Roan. Sabino caused roan is very good at mimicking true roan.


Well I could tell she was sabino I was just thinking because if the V's she was an actual roan. Like I said wasn't sure cause if the pic quality 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy

Lol No worries. I just remember from pictures that have been posted of her elsewhere on here.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

NdAppy said:


> Lol No worries. I just remember from pictures that have been posted of her elsewhere on here.


Lol that helps 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shoebox

Chiilaa said:


> The two pictures are of the same stallion, just at different times of year/day. He is definitely a cremello


Whaaat! That's crazy! And cool. I learn new things every day on this forum.

I like him better in the bottom picture... I wouldn't mind having a True White/Dominant White horse. Or a cremello, so long as it looks like that bottom picture all the time! (Then again, I wouldn't like dealing with sunburn...)


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## Jalter

I'd love a true white, creamello, or perlino horse. the sunburn thing will be nothing.new to me, I will know exactly how he feels haha. Being a ginger, 10 minutes in the sun with spf 70 still leaves me looking like a lobster. I love grooming horses too, so if I had a 'white' horse, id have an excuse to spend hoirs grooming xD
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Peppy Barrel Racing

From what I hear the double creams don't seem to sunburn really. Pepper sunburns a little on his nose and side of his face and sometimes on his shoulders. I put on sweat proof and water proof sunblock and a UV protective fly mask it works pretty well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Whisper22

NdAppy said:


> She's not true roan PBR. She's Sabino Roan. Sabino caused roan is very good at mimicking true roan.


So should I be saying it "bay sabino roan", instead of roan sabino lol? I do remember you were one of the people who helped me to figure out her color when I first got her.


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## Poseidon

I would just take out roan, honestly. Bay sabino. If someone tries to correct you and say she's a roan, be the person that explains sabino and how flamboyant it likes to be. :lol:


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## Whisper22

It doesn't matter anyway. I have a serious lack of horsey friends or anyone around me really. No one knows what any one of those words mean. Bay, what's that? Raon, huh? Sabino, forget it. To everyone else, she's my gray horse.


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## haviris

LoveMyDrummerBoy said:


> The argument is not about your opinion, it is about the correct terminology of a phenotype demonstrated in what you would call "white".
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> The difference that it makes is that genetics tells you exactly what you are looking at, without question.


I didn't say anything about my opinion I said it was my definition of a white horse, a horse who's coat is WHITE!!! His genetics may say he's a bay, but if he's solid white I am not looking at a bay!

If I had a white horse, that is what I would call him, white! Besides I'm pretty sure if I asked someone to go catch my bay horse they'd look at me like I was an idiot. (just imagine the trouble I would be in if I didn't know his genetics? I wouldn't know what to call him!)


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