# Parelli Horsenalities



## Pegasus1

I started this thread as countrylove asked about them on the 7 games thread and I felt it was a large enough topic that will probably attract loads of discussion that is deserved its' on place. I'm sure its' been discussed here before, but the question was asked...

First let us dispense with the Parelli merchandising on the subject, which I think has done a very interesting idea a lot of harm. 
From Parelli you can buy horsenality tee shirts, mugs, toys etc etc. I might add that these days the vast majority of Parelli profits go into scholarships for students. Up to 100% of their fees are paid on a means tested basis. So this merchandising does have its' upside :wink:
James Roberts felt that the best thing to do with the tee shirts was to use them as dishcloths and never wear them. That does NOT mean he did not subscribe to the horsenality model, just that as an instructor he heard too many people use it as an excuse for not being able to perform certain tasks with their horses. It also tended to make people think of their horses as locked inside a horsenality box which will never change. That is not, and never was, the intention of the model, it is just how some people chose to interpret it in order to give them those excuses. His real pet hate was the fact, and I have heard it myself, that at a Parelli meet when starting a conversation with a stranger the conversation often starts "Hi, my names X and I have a left brain introvert".
Horses live in the moment, and so do their horsenalities. They will have a predominant horsenality, which under stress they will tend to revert to, but they can display any horsenality on the chart at any given time. This is similar to humans. I am inherently a left brain introvert which means I think a lot, don't act from fear much but in general can be pretty quiet. Get me into a place like this forum and I become a left brain extrovert, probably saying rather too much but in thoughtful sort of way.

The aim of the horsenality model is to analyse what horsenality is being displayed at any one moment and then modify your approach to that horse to bring it into a calm, forward thinking (not just forward going), left brain state of mind. This is near the center of the horsenality chart, but erring to the left side. 

Let's take a look at the chart. http://www.horsechannel.com/images/horse-exclusives/horsenalitychart.pdf . The idea with this chart is to put a dot in each behaviour pie at the place you think it belongs. Then, once the chart is complete have a look at where the greatest concentration of dots lie and that gives you an idea of the horsenality of that horse. There will be dots all over the chart, but chances are there will be a cluster as well. Filly was originally an Right brain extrovert, as she gained confidence with me she became Left brain extrovert, and has now settled nicely in the cusp of Left brain introvert/extrovert. That is in a familiar environment. Take her somewhere she is not used to and she can become extreme right brain extrovert again.
A word of advice on filling in the chart. People tend to know what horsenality they want their horse to be and fill in the chart with confirmational bias. To avoid that get a partner to randomly call out the attributes and answer, none, mild, moderate, extreme. The partner then fills in the dot. Make sure you cannot see the chart until it is complete. Don't do it just once, horses change over time so do it on say a three monthly basis to chart the progress you are making in getting them left brain near the center.
Make sure you learn all the horsenalities and approaches they need as the horse will change from minute to minute, but probably be the predominant horsenality most of the time. It would be a shame if you had managed to move you right brain horse to a left brain state for a while, but then did not know how to take advantage of it.

There is loads on the web about the horsenalities themselves so I'll only do a brief recap here, shamelessly cribbing from the web as I go 

I'll suggest this site as a very quick overview and try and expand on it a bit Working with Your Horse

Right Brain Extrovert (RBE)
Extrovert means "likes to move their feet". Right brain means that they predominantly react instinctively and with fear. They don't use the thinking Left side of their brains. When horses spook and bolt that is instinctual RB (right brain) behaviour. The classic is for them to run from a lion attack. Standing around thinking about it gets them eaten, so they just react with no thought and run. They then go about 1/2 mile flat out then to save energy they stop, turn and face the threat and think about it in a left brain fashion to avoid wasting anymore precious energy that they need to. This turn and face can be thought of as a "pattern interrupt" which gives the horse a chance to think. We can use that knowledge to alter the way we play. I was teaching a 16 year old pony. When he started circling he would not stop, just kept going. He had been lunged a lot in the past and my circling him brought up bad memories and made him go RBE. I needed a pattern interrupt to get his LB to kick in for a split second so he could listen to my cues. I achieved this by travelling the circles so that he suddenly run into a fence, not literally. The shock of the fence appearing kicked his mind LB and gave me a second to influence him. After about five minutes of this he was listening to me much more and we could make progress.

Right Brain Introvert.
RB is already explained. Introvert means they prefer not to move their feet. To my mind this is one of the most dangerous horsenalities for us to deal with. An RBI will often not show outward signs of fear. They will look calm and composed and cope with their fear by trying to block it out and pretend it isn't happening. If you don't recognise this state and keep pushing on with the task then two things might happen. They could go catatonic, which is kind of a happy place prey animals go into when they know they are dead and give up fighting (apparently associated with large endorphin releases) or, much worse for us, they explode. Anyone ever seen a really calm horse that refused to move and was stubborn, then for "no reason" exploded into a bucking fit, threw the rider and headed for the hills. Of course there was a reason, they had gone RBI and been pushed just a little too far.

Left Brain Introvert
This is a real thinker of a horse. LB means they use the LB thinking side of their brain more than the RB side. Introvert means they choose not to move, but would rather stand still and conserve their energy. They have to be given a reason to do anything. They bore very very easy, then can become "naughty". The challenge for us when working with an LBI is not to get frustrated with them. We have to think up incentives to do anything. For example when teaching our LBI snappy upwards transitions the corner game worked miracles. This consists of asking him to only go from one corner to the next of the school. Once there he gets a rest, and maybe a treat. After just a short time, being LB, he figured out the game and put real effort into getting to the next corner for a rest (maximum around 7 seconds rest, or it is less effective). After a time we can miss out the odd corner rest and go two sides of the school and so on. Just to emphasise the "don't label your horse" aspect I would add he can be RBE in other tasks, so we approach them accordingly.

Left Brain Extrovert.
This is a fun horse, but can have a bit more go than many of us would like. He is always looking to play and have fun. He can drive field mates nuts with his hyperactivity. This horse needs lots of challenges. Quick changes of activities. He can be bored easily and then makes up his own games to play with you, so try (with the emphasis on try) to stay one step ahead. I like to have a good arsenal of pre-prepared ideas for this sort of horse as I can't make up new ones on the spot quickly enough. If you don't keep up they will tend to dominate you so be warned.

I'm going on holiday today, but will check back in next week to see how many flames this post has created. Of all the Parelli ideas this is probably one of the more controversial. I think that this is because they have over marketed it to some extent so that people have lost focus on its' true meaning and worth. Used correctly it can transform the way you deal with horses, especially if you get to play with a fair few which you don't always have time to really get to know intimately.


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## Dame Nuit

I just would add that left brain / right brain are not to be considered as a scientific concept but as an educational help for the rider.


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## justicehorse

I am not a fan of the charts and categories and labels, but I much appreciate how parelli originally described a horse's personality aka horseanality in his natural horseman book. To quote:

"Just as important as knowing how a horse moves is knowing how a horse feels about what he is doing. In playing with different horses, I've noticed that all horses have their own "horse-analities", or what we call personalities in people.

A horseanality is based on 3 things: innate characteristics, learned behavior and spirit. Every horse has his own horseanality because of these separate ingredients. 
1. Innate characteristics are what the horse is born with, his genetic makeup. I've talked about horses being born cowards, claustrophobics, and born full-throttle aholics. To what degree is a horse born with these characteristics? Some horses are born as gentle as dogs, and others snort at everything the day after they are born. These are innate characteristics. The horse hasn't had time to learn anything else yet.
2. Horses get their learned behavior first from their mothers, second from the herd, third from their environment, and fourth from us.... Part of a horse's horseanality today is based on learned behavior. A horse can actually change his horseanality or modify it through learned behavior.
3. Spirit is part of a horse's innate package, but has to do with the amount of life or energy he puts into things. Spirit is the multiplying factor. For example, horses are born with the innate characteristic to be sensitive and aware of things. If a horse doesn't have a lot of spirit, he is not going to put a whole lot of energy into his sensitivity or awareness. But a horse with a lot of spirit is going to really react to something another horse would practically ignore....

When selecting a horse, you should select one with the innate characteristics you like and those that fit your personality, whether it is mental attributes, disposition, or spirit. ... Don't pick your poison ... Understand that whatever spirit a horse has is what you've got to deal with, and leave it alone. If you don't, you'll destroy the horse's spirit, and that's a mortal sin to a natural horseman."


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## corymbia

While there is an increasing body of science to support the concept that horses have different temperaments and some behaviours will occur more or less frequently depending on the temperament type, there is no good data to substatiate the Parelli Horsenality chart/descriptors. 

Certaintly we are only at the very beginning of understanding equine laterality (brain hemispheres) and at the moment there is almost no evidence to believe that equine laterality is the same as human laterality. 

And lastly, horses don't possess a frontal cortex, that part of the brain that is responsible for reasoning, insight and self awareness. So its highly unlikely that horses have a "thinking" brain that's distinct from their "reacting" brain.

Some research has shown that more reactive types learn pressure based cues more quickly than less reactive types, but its theorised that the more reactive types are less able to tolerate pressure cues so learn more quickly how to find the release so they can be rid of the pressure. Less reactive types don't care so much about the pressure so they put up with it for longer and thus seem to learn more slowly.

I think it is useful to be aware of temperament differences and understand how your horse is most likely to react to given situations, but I think the big danger of the horsenality approach is that it encourages people to shoehorn their horse and then blame the horse when it doesn't do what they want. There are a lot of value judgements embedded in the descriptors used in the horsenality charts and many of the descriptors such as "forward-a holic" indicate inadequate training irrespective of the temperament of the horse.

The vast majority of unwanted behaviours listed in the charts are most likely caused by poor training, usually not releasing the pressure at the right time, using too much (or occasionally too little), going too fast for the horse and giving the horse confusing signals. This can happen irrespective of the temperment of the horse and the solution is always with the rider or handler. Labelling the horse won't help unless we change what we are doing and use the horse's responses as a guide to how well they've understood what we are asking of them.


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## Pegasus1

I would like to point out that Dame Nuit is correct. Horsenalities do not imply a physical laterality to the brain, it is just a model to allow humans to think about the idea. We could call it the lemon and the orange side of the brain if you like, but that would interfere with the visualisation of the chart, which does have left and right sides.
The point corymbia makes about not shoe horning your horse into a particular horsenality I entirely agree with and covered extensively in the original post.
Parelli actually suggests that the initial horsenality chart be filled out on your horse before it is handled much. Don't forget Pat comes from a strong colt starting background numbering 10s of thousand horses so a bias in this direction is to be expected. Thus, in an ideal world we get a chart which reflects the horse inherent, pre-human interference, characteristics.
The horsenality changes can then be used to see how training is progressing and if you need to change your style with a particular horse to get it to the near middle of the chart we desire.
As to the idea that horses do not have a thinking brain as distinct from a reactive brain that tends to fly in the face of all the evidence I have seen when working with horses, and indeed the behaviour we see on TV of prey animals being chased by predators. 
The initial reaction to a predator attack is clearly one that is completely instinctive and is so fast I suspect that motor engrams are involved. These are pre-recorded actions to a stimulus that don't need any brain processing to activate. Once activated they can actually be very difficult to turn off, even by humans. 
If a horse lived it's whole live in this reactive state there would be an incredible waste of energy involved. They would continue to react strongly to all stimuli which would increase energy output and reduce time for energy input. It therefore seems obvious to me that they do have a section of brain that learns from experience, if this was not the case we could never be able to teach them not to be scared of plastic bags etc. It is this learning part of the brain we wish to develop (left side in Parelli speak), or maybe we are just trying to reduce the time that the reaction takes to play itself out and the part of the brain that evaluates whether the energy expenditure is needed kicks in.
It is perfectly natural that horses should have evolved to have different horsenalities. The genectic aim would be to maintian the viability of the herd in general, not just a specific horse. If a herd had too many outgoing horsenalities who loved to explore, to take an anthropomorphic analogy, that herd is less likely to do well as they will be expending too much energy. If a herd has a preponderance of introverts who prefer not to move then they will starve in lean times when resources are harder to find. If the herd has too many reactive animals they will be likely to waste too much energy running from everything that moves. Thus it is natural that a balance of horsenalities should have evolved to help the herd survive under a variety of conditions.
I believe that there is some research that already points to this conclusion for human evolution. It was put forward as an explanation as to why there are some extreme risk takers in the human population, many of whom don't live long enough to have children. The idea is that in times of need these risk takers where the ones that would look over the next hill for resources, whereas the majority would not. Again there is evolutionary pressure for there to be a small proportion of a particular personality type. Too large a number and to many of the tribe die prior to having children, too few and the tribe suffers in times of hardship. 
The fact that science is only just uncovering this in horses is that until recently (when compared to research on humans) very little research had been done. I would recommend Andrew McLean as a good source for what is known about horse psychology, and more importantly where more research is needed


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## christopher

that's not how evolution works. given the highly adaptive nature of evolution it's far more likely that horses evolved to have the ability to change from 1 to any of the 3 other horsenalities depending on it's situation (and it's situation alone, not innate characteristics). because a herd of very similar and highly adaptable horses would survive better in any natural situation than a herd of horses with highly varying and immutable innate behaviours.

either that or they would diverge from the herd and create their own species (or a breed within a species) due to their behaviour being adapted to different circumstances


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## Pegasus1

To reply to Christophers' points. 
The point you make is a view of evolution, but recent research is looking at the survival of a species, not just individuals. Here are some interesting links
Having the Right Blend of "Personalities" Can Impact the Survival of the Animal Group
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...sg=AFQjCNH8x4RwMlUorkSStIvU3W2MeVmNhg&cad=rja

The second paper is particularly interesting. Look at 
Implication 3: stability, resilience, and persistence of populations
on page 455.


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## Army wife

Well shucks...I thought horses were so much more simple then that! lol fight...or FLIGHT! Isn't that the basic motivation for us all under physical pressure? To me, it seems like a lot of human emotions and characteristics given to a rather simple animal. As some have mentioned, not based on fact, but based on our human need to understand and dissect our horses. LB/RB, I personally don't think they are that complicated and need that much classification. I do believe some have a stronger "flight" response then others. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I've learned in my years of handling horses.


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## Pegasus1

Why would you believe that horses are less complicated than other animals ? Even humans. They just perceive the world and react to it in a very alien way to us. Their brain is also organised to be optimised for one time learning which ours isn't. I would agree that they don't have the complex problem solving abilities of humans but in their own way they are just as capable, you just have to remove the human biased view of what constitutes a powerful complex brain to understand this.
I cannot even begin to really understand what it feels like to be a horse as my brain is wired up in a totally different way, my eyes work in a different way and my hearing has a different sensitivity and range. But I would like to try. 
In a way that is what makes us Natural Horsemen. We try to see things from the horses point of view, and try to adapt our behaviour to make communication with them easier.
The more I read about current research into how animals behave and think the more complicated I realise they are. I am currently reading Animal Learning and Cognition by John M Pearce Animal Learning and Cognition, 3rd Edition: An Introduction: Amazon.co.uk: John M. Pearce: Books. This is a very academic book and I would only recommend it to real enthusiasts but for me it is proving fascinating. I'm afraid it does include details on animal behavioural experiments that were done in the past, and some may find distasteful. But the truth is those experiments were done and it would be a waste of the animals suffering if those results were not now used to increase our current understanding of animal behaviour and improve welfare standards today. They were done in a different age when animal welfare was not the issue it rightly is today. Pavlovs dogs, for example, had surgically implanted tube to collect and measure saliva.
For a more equine oriented book then Equitation Science Equitation Science: Amazon.co.uk: Paul D. McGreevy, Andrew N. McLean: Books would be a good starting point.


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## Saranda

Pegasus, I'd like to use this chance and thank you for being on this forum! You share very valuable, inspirational and structured opinions and information, from which I benefit a lot. I really enjoy reading your posts, so I naturally hope to see more from you.


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## Pegasus1

Thank-you Saranda. I was on a Parelli only forum, but that is closing down and I did not like the face-book styled replacement. 
I also wanted a place where folks would challenge my posts more which makes me do even more research and thinking. The best teachers are those who have a different perspective to ones self, not the same.


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## Saranda

About the horsenalities - I value the concept and definitely agree that horses are much more complex beings than many believe - mentally, emotionally, spiritually. But one won't see it until ready to accept this complexity and to be open for some very mind blowing discoveries. 

The horsenalities themselves are a basic concept about the basic characteristics of different kinds of horses, but it is a very good start to begin understanding your horse - it really helped me with my gelding, who is a typical, 100% LBE. A challenging one for the first horse, if I may confess.  For example, our relationships changed upwards when I introduced more action and less precision at times in our routine, less routine and more adventures, also longer ropes and more liberty. He has opened up immensely and is visibly having fun with me - and learning in the process! - instead of being dominant and hard to motivate.


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## Foxhunter

Quite honestly I think Horsenalities is a load of marketing hype to get people to look for excuses as to why their animals are not behaving perfectly. 

A horse is a horse is a horse - end of story.

No matter what their temperament, whether from nature or nurture 99.999% of horses respond to firm, fair and consistent training. The other .001% might need some specialist and very experienced training for one reason or another. 

With humans it is possible to test for left or right brain use - majority of men are left brained whilst women are right brained but it is a complex system to diagnose and not always correct.

As said, it is a hype to sell. 

Sorry but I do not want to play games with any horse, I have yet to see a Parelli trained horse look as if it is enjoying life. They are so bored and compliant and unable to think for themselves. They do things because they know that if they don't they will be made to. I want a horse to do things because it wants to please me. I want a horse to go out for a ride and enjoy it, to tell me he is feeling well by giving a whoopee buck, but listening to what I am telling him. I want a horse to question something new, to ask if it is safe and when I tell it it is, to trust me enought to go ahead with whatever.
In other words I want my horse to have a personality not just be a lump of meat I can climb on and do anything with because all character has been bored out of it.


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## Saranda

Foxhunter, it seems that you have observed only bad PNH training examples - I run into completely different horses every day! I don't do pure PNH with my horse, though, because it seems to me that it teaches them too much push-button behavior, however, that's just me and to each horse their own. I prefer Hempfling and Pignon, for example.


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## bsms

Horses do vary in personality, but they mostly all respond well to the same training approach: Make sure they understand what you are asking - that they have been trained to understand. Ask clearly. That is why one of my horses prefers a bit, because it is easier to be clear when using a bit. Don't nag, but don't take no for an answer. Only one of you can have ultimate responsibility for what you do as a team, and it had better be the human. Be fair. Any punishment needs to be proportional and timely. There are big differences between "I don't understand", "I don't feel like it" and "I'm afraid". Respond accordingly. Let the horse know you care about its well-being. That can be as simple as squaring a horse up before cleaning its feet rather than grabbing a leg of an unbalanced horse.

Horses do have differences in personality. My mare is much more high-strung and excitable than my Appy gelding, but "Firm, fair and consistent" per Foxhunter's post will get her as far and as fast in a training direction as her individual nature allows. The underlying training approach doesn't change, only how much she progresses and how quickly.


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## Pegasus1

Foxhunter, please bear in mind that, as I have mentioned in other posts, Parelli is primarily a people training program. I am sure that you have many many years of experience training many types of horse, and therefore probably adjust your training style without even realising you are doing it to meet the needs of the horse in front of you this second. 
For those of us who are new to training horses the Parelli program tries to give us some models to use that help us to use the experience Pat has built up over 30 years in Natural Horsemanship. His aim for the program is to make learning at least ten times faster than it was for him and to achieve this his has to explain his experience in an accessible way. Horsenalities is just his way of trying to get students to react properly to the horse in front of them even if they don't have a huge amount of experience.


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## Foxhunter

Saranda said:


> Foxhunter, it seems that you have observed only bad PNH training examples - I run into completely different horses every day! I don't do pure PNH with my horse, though, because it seems to me that it teaches them too much push-button behavior, however, that's just me and to each horse their own. I prefer Hempfling and Pignon, for example.


You mean to say there is *good* Parelli training?

Sorry but having seen the way he lunges horses constantly in their faces breaking a rhythmic pace, seen how badly he rides and listened to the rubbish he spouts I can only admire him for his hype.


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## gypsygirl

Army wife said:


> Well shucks...I thought horses were so much more simple then that! lol fight...or FLIGHT! Isn't that the basic motivation for us all under physical pressure? To me, it seems like a lot of human emotions and characteristics given to a rather simple animal. As some have mentioned, not based on fact, but based on our human need to understand and dissect our horses. LB/RB, I personally don't think they are that complicated and need that much classification. I do believe some have a stronger "flight" response then others. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I've learned in my years of handling horses.



animal behaviorists now recognize fight or flight and freeze and frantic =]


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## Saranda

Yes, Fox, I mean it. But I've seen it not necessarily by Parelli himself.


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## justicehorse

Foxhunter said:


> You mean to say there is *good* Parelli training?
> 
> Sorry but having seen the way he lunges horses constantly in their faces breaking a rhythmic pace, seen how badly he rides and listened to the rubbish he spouts I can only admire him for his hype.


This post seems kind of mean and unnecessary. :?


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## jaydee

I'm afraid that I am veering more towards Foxhunter on this one - maybe because I did 'Very well thank you' with all the horses I've ever owned or worked with before I even knew PP existed
My horses enjoy pleasing me, they respect me because I respect them. They gallop up when I call them and when a scarey thing pops up they know its OK to be afraid but they also know its not Ok to leap away or bolt off because I'm there to tell them not too. This is doesnt done by force or game playing its just down to firm fair handling and caring
I do agree that all horses have different personalities though, every foal we bred was born different - even foals with the same parents were rarely the same. 
You cant treat all personalities the same though, thats like trying to mould them into something they aren't - some need more time than others, some need a firmer hand, some need a really sensitive approach, some need loads of stimulation to keep them from getting bored. You try and treat them all the same and thats a recipe for disaster. Thats like getting on every horse you own and expecting to ride it in the same way. Doesnt work like that


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## Pegasus1

I see that my topic has been hijacked into another Parelli bashing fest, sigh ! I was trying to give information to someone who asked about horsenalities. If this is the way this forum operates then maybe I should go someplace else. 
My mentor, James Roberts, had a rule on his yard that you should never say anything negative as it effects your attitude around the horses. You were free and encouraged to question anything and everything, but had to phrase it as a positive question, not a negative rant.


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## Saranda

I agree. I'd very much like to see this thread as a bashing-free zone. After all, we're not discussing a certain clinician here, but a concept about horse personality types. Whether we agree with the concept or not, each of us must have at least some interesting observations to share!


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## AceIsHigh

parelli has good ideas, but he does really stupid stuff also

ie. tieing a rope from horses halter to its foot and pulling on it to try and get him to walk foreward (for any one who hasnt seen video of catwalk 2010... 



)

ie. beating a one eyed horse (you cant even tell what shes asking the poor thing to do 

"friendly game"==desensitizing
"porcupine"==yielding
"driving"==poke it with a whip as your riding it to male it turn(face)or back up (chest) (wearing a halter and lead.....what if horse spooks, u have no control)
"yoyo"==push your horse away and then pull it back to you (make sure he gets really confused huh parelli?)
"circle"==lunging( wait parelli you said you never lunge your horses...didnt you?)
"side ways"==leg yeilding
"squeeze"==loading and obstacles

"carrot stick"=50$=whip (but parelli says he doesnt use whips?)
"cradle bit"== ported, two chin chains(brain fart cant think of what theyre called...)


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## Saranda

PLEASE, let's not start a Parelli bashing thread again. There have been already plenty of them and the topic of this thread is completely different! Let's respect the OP's intentions and each other, ok?


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## Dame Nuit

Pegasus, on every forum, you will find in your discution steril people coming into it just to drown the thread. 
You have to go over, and just pay attention to the posts that are really here for the subject. :wink: 

There is one thing I don't understand : Moderator, there are Parelli bashing threads, Isn't it possible you transfert the new bashing posts on this thread to thoses threads? 
I don't know, just ask the question.


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## Saranda

I don't think that the forum wants to encourage bashing threads as such, so I guess that a better decision for all of us would be to learn from this experience and not to repeat it. If it happens that this thread starts turning into a bashing thread after all, actions will be taken, of course. I suppose that some of the bashing posts here were posted because their authors overlooked the introductory post and just jumped in to rant - a great reminder to always go deeper than that and maybe find some good advice/useful experience in the way. 

I truly hope that from this post on we will all stick to the actual topic of this interesting thread. 

Just to share some experience - I now have an opportunity to work with an older (19yrs) Latvian Draft gelding who is a very typical LBI - the hardest type for me to work with, as I have a vice to become impatient or hyper over passive behaviors. The LBI's were the ones that stood in the arena, motionless, while I cried by their sides, unable to motivate them for ANYTHING.  It was when I was just starting to learn and I have found my ways of motivating them now. For me it is to be very precise in my body language and always just to suggest, never to make them do anything. Well, that's one small part. But with this gelding I have a special challenge - I need to help a person who is learning with this gelding, but the person happens to be a complete beginner with no body language whatsoever, no self confidence and so on. The gelding is a very stubborn old chap and completely unsuitable for this girl as a first horse - she'd still need a trustworthy and kind confidence builder. Gonna be fun to motivate this guy to be responsive to what he finds unworthy of his majesty.


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## jaydee

I think the OP's post was a really clever idea - but maybe if he didnt want anti PP comments he might have done better to have skipped the PP intro and not brought him into it at all - just used it as a discussion on horse personalities and how best to work with them.


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## Saranda

Well, the horsenality concept is a large part of the horse personality topic as such - many use it, many find it at least interesting, many have learned from it as beginners and, if somebody got to read something about the horsenalities without knowing it comes from PP - I bet he'd find it useful or relate it to horses he knows.  

Another kind of horse personality list is done by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling (my personal inspiration), 26 types of horses, grouped both by their characters and by physical features that can tell us about their minds. However, the system is very vast and complex, and not intended to be used as a simple test or a superficial generalisation. It is fascinating to look into, though. You can find about it on Youtube and in his site.


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## Dame Nuit

I have the book of Hempfling Horsenalities. Very different system that Parelli. Interresting anyway.


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## wetrain17

I'm sure PP has helped people; however, I am one of those who refuse to drink this koolaid.


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## Saranda

I feel that Hempfling goes much deeper than Parelli - PP's system is an easy concept, helpful to grasp the very basics of the different motivations a horse may have and how to deal with them accordingly, whereas Hempfling touches subjects that help to get to know a horse as a real individual.


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## Dame Nuit

wetrain17 said:


> I'm sure PP has helped people; however, I am one of those who refuse to drink this koolaid.


I'm glad for you. Just don't take care of this thread. 
You're as free as you want to don't like Parelli.
And we're as free as we want to try our horse journey with him. 

And every body's fine and happy! :mrgreen:


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## jaydee

Saranda said:


> Well, the horsenality concept is a large part of the horse personality topic as such - many use it, many find it at least interesting, many have learned from it as beginners and, if somebody got to read something about the horsenalities without knowing it comes from PP - I bet he'd find it useful or relate it to horses he knows.
> 
> Another kind of horse personality list is done by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling (my personal inspiration), 26 types of horses, grouped both by their characters and by physical features that can tell us about their minds. However, the system is very vast and complex, and not intended to be used as a simple test or a superficial generalisation. It is fascinating to look into, though. You can find about it on Youtube and in his site.


 I think I agree!!!!
I'm afraid that to a lot of people the mere mention of Parelli gets their hackles up so removing his name from the horseanility concept would attract more interest - the moment a lot of us see PP we go negative or just move on 
I'm also a fan of Hempfling, when you study his approach its very different to the whole PP thing though - almost in opposition, as its about the horse working with you because it wants too and not because it feels defeated and oppressed
SORRY for hijacking your thread *pegasus* You may all continue!!!


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## bsms

Pegasus1 said:


> I see that my topic has been hijacked into another Parelli bashing fest, sigh ! I was trying to give information to someone who asked about horsenalities. If this is the way this forum operates then maybe I should go someplace else.
> My mentor, James Roberts, had a rule on his yard that you should never say anything negative as it effects your attitude around the horses. You were free and encouraged to question anything and everything, but had to phrase it as a positive question, not a negative rant.


Sorry, but I think it is important for folks to be free to bring up disagreements. No one called Parelli a poo-poo head, but saying you haven't seen a well trained Parelli horse would indicate to others that maybe his methods (and horsenality idea) don't work all the time. That, in turn, might make them reconsider spending the money to buy stuff from Parelli - which is a good or bad idea, depending on what one thinks of Parelli. 

Not everyone who comes here to read a thread will spend months on HF reading all of them. My introduction to HF was finding threads during Yahoo searches, and eventually I concluded I had seen so much good advice that I needed to join - but I started by reading individual threads found in searches for specific terms. 

This is not a James Roberts Forum, nor do OPs "own" their threads. As someone who has owned a total of 4 horses over 4.5 years, I NEED more experienced riders and owners to chime in. And if those chimes sound more like gongs, I need that too. Heck, my horses need some negative attitude at times. They consider it natural. My lead mare can get VERY negative, and the others adore her. If negative is bad around horses, someone needs to tell my horses. I'd hate to see the forum become a place where only nodding heads of agreement are welcome...:-(


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## Lockwood

Although I am not a PP follower, I really hope this doesn’t go the way that other PP threads have gone…. South, as I think they have helped many people. Just as most other trainers have as well.

I will say that while horses are horses, there are many ways a person can approach horses. (Philosophy I mean, not actual walk up approach) and I think the different trainers, or rather human coaches are geared towards the different needs of the humans that follow them and what helps them (humans) get the best relationship they can with their horse.
Nothing wrong with that.

I have been around horses far longer that many of the well know trainers have even been riding. As in, back when you needed to figure it out yourself, pronto, or it (whatever you were trying to accomplish) wasn’t going to work.
However, I do have to say after reviewing many of the trainers lately, some really do offer some good information, especially for people who are new and haven’t ridden for their whole life, but they also offer a fresh approach for those who have been around.

Horses, much as any other subject or pool of knowledge there is to be had, have some basic common sense things and I amazed at how many people struggle with these common sense things. (In general, not directed at anyone on HF)
So I, for one, am glad that there are different trainers/gurus/whatevers out there for people to utilize in their journeys in the horse world and I think over all it (all the different approaches) have been helpful.
The knowledge that is… not the marketing. Not going there.

That said, I did look over the personality chart when it first came out and the ability to “peg” my horse wasn’t so much what I found helpful, but more rather the idea of breaking horse characteristics down into relatable terms. I’m sure many of us can attest to the fact that horses do indeed have different personalities.
Being able to recognize that can only be beneficial, no matter who came up with the concept of putting it on paper and selling it.
I think it is high time we start to look more at the info that is available and less at the names associated with it.


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## Oldhorselady

I just plain love it! I know there are so many Parelli haters, just like with everything else. Parelli was a method I learned when I first got into horses and my horse given to me, as my first horse, was a complete nutcase and trainwreck. Trainer gave up on her and I was told to get rid of her because she was dangerous. She was unbroke at 16 years old and hurt anyone who tried to ride her. She had one owner, previously to me, who just let her sit in a field her whole life. She was scared of her own shadow and an alpha mare. Ahhhhh, my pretty first horse at the age of 36 years old and recovering from a broken ankle after my first trail ride on a horse....

I spent a lot of time with this horse after this, just getting to know her and learned about Parelli. People laughed at me.... But it was a method that was slow, easy and gentle for this horse. It didn't send her into a complete panic and I could understand it. I was comfortable and coordinated enough to do it, which in turn, made it easier for her to understand.

Turned out she was a RBE! What a shock! The horsenality chart isn't a magic tool and it constantly changes. But it gave me a place to start. It helped me learn about the differences in a world that I had no clue about. I was on my own with people laughing at me and this horse. That horse was one of the best things that ever happend in my life. Granted, I could only ride her and she put all of her confidence in me....I had no idea a horse/human relationship could be so special.

I don't say one method is better than the other. I think it all depends on how you learn and what you are comfortable with so you can teach your horse successfully. Does it really matter so much that people have to argue about which trainer/method is best? I've used CA method, John Lyon's methods and Monty's joinup. I make a blend that 'seems' to be suited towards the individual horse and myself at that time.

Sorry, not meaning to get off topic. So, horsenality chart? I think it's a great for something to refer to and get a general understanding, knowing that it changes.


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## bsms

Here is an example of what I think ought to be common sense, and may or may not be covered in a left brain/right brain analysis:

My mare had not been out of an arena. So when I started taking her out, I started by walking her on a lead line. We started at 100 yards max before a meltdown, and extended it. While doing that, it became apparent that she considers backing up a fair and reasonable way to be disciplined, but spinning in circles to be abusive. I don't know why she feels that way, but she would get ****y if I turned her in multiple tight circles. I could back her up 100 yards at a near run, and she would drop her head, lick her lips, and want to be near me.

So with Mia, when we started riding, a scary thing was responded to by backing up. We might then approach a few steps at a time, watching her for tension, or I might dismount and lead her. But I would not turn her in circles to try to convince her she was being bad and had to listen to me. That would have turned it into a fight. I gather the latter works for some horses and some people, but not for Mia & I.

Each horse is an individual. Back in the 70s, there was a popular book that tried to break humans into 4 basic types, and then had further breakdowns within those 4 types. I read it, but found it too simplistic to be useful. In the end, I found I had to treat each human as an individual. But I also found that certain principles - honesty, fairness, genuine concern, etc - worked well on about 95% of humans. So far, based on 4 horses, I'd say they have different personalities, but they don't fit into neat patterns, and the basic principles of training mentioned earlier work well.


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## jaydee

You have to accept that though like humans horses all start out with individual personalities, in the same way as humans their approach to things and the way they react is also scarred by whatever life has thrown at them on the way to the point they land up at your door. So you have all of this to deal with as well
Unfortunately horses cant sit down and have a chat with you and discuss things over a cup of tea/coffee so a lot of time we are 'making it up as we go along'. 
PP has packaged and marketed his ideas in his own unique way but none of it is is strictly unique - they are methods used from way back and passed down from person to person so they will work on some horses - it all depends on how far you want to go down that route and if your horse needs an different approach and then you need to research or dig deep into your own book of plans.
A horse owner that cant take the time to understand his/her horse is going to be a rather sorry one.


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## Dame Nuit

bsms said:


> Back in the 70s, there was a popular book that tried to break humans into 4 basic types, and then had further breakdowns within those 4 types. I read it, but found it too simplistic to be useful.


That's the reason why Parelli horsenalities are not 4 types you have to lock our horse into one. 
But 4 tendencies and the horse personality goes from one to another. :wink:


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## Fargosgirl

Cathy is the best traditional horse trainer I've ever known, she's adamant that each horse must be trained individually, and that some techniques should never be used with some horses, while being very effective with other horses. She has 45+ years of experience in training literally thousands of horses for high levels of competition, so she learned mostly through trial and error what techniques to use on which type of horse. She also admits that there are certain types of horse that she refuses to train, not because she can't train them, but rather because she doesn't enjoy their "horsenality" or whatever you want to call it, and her lack of enjoyment brings a negativity to the lessons that she feels damages the horse's ability to progress in its learning.

The concept of horsenality is the one aspect of Parelli I appreciate most, because it gives me a way to classify a horse rather quickly, similar to the way Cathy does, even though I don't have experience with thousands of horses to draw on. In the Parelli program each horsenality type has training guidelines to help the rider or trainer to use the best possible techniques for each horse. It also helps in choosing a horse that will be most compatible with a specific rider.

While most horses fit pretty well into one "horsenality type" all horses change horsenality behaviors occasionally based on the situation. Being able to label these reactions and behavior problems makes it easier to categorize the training techniques at your disposal to be more effective in the moment.

The idea of training each horse as an individual is not new, all of the best trainers I have met have expressed those sentiments, but few trainers have tried to capsulize the the concept to be accessible to the relatively inexperienced horseman, like Parelli has. I have several of Hempfling's books, I find his teaching principals to be very harmonious with Parelli training, but I found his descriptions of types of horses difficult to understand, until I read it as a companion to the horsenality chart. The simplicity of the horsenality chart has really helped me to tailor my lessons and techniques to each of my horses and each situation.


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## Army wife

Pegasus1 said:


> Why would you believe that horses are less complicated than other animals ? Even humans. They just perceive the world and react to it in a very alien way to us. Their brain is also organised to be optimised for one time learning which ours isn't. I would agree that they don't have the complex problem solving abilities of humans but in their own way they are just as capable, you just have to remove the human biased view of what constitutes a powerful complex brain to understand this.
> I cannot even begin to really understand what it feels like to be a horse as my brain is wired up in a totally different way, my eyes work in a different way and my hearing has a different sensitivity and range. But I would like to try.
> In a way that is what makes us Natural Horsemen. We try to see things from the horses point of view, and try to adapt our behaviour to make communication with them easier.
> The more I read about current research into how animals behave and think the more complicated I realise they are. I am currently reading Animal Learning and Cognition by John M Pearce Animal Learning and Cognition, 3rd Edition: An Introduction: Amazon.co.uk: John M. Pearce: Books. This is a very academic book and I would only recommend it to real enthusiasts but for me it is proving fascinating. I'm afraid it does include details on animal behavioural experiments that were done in the past, and some may find distasteful. But the truth is those experiments were done and it would be a waste of the animals suffering if those results were not now used to increase our current understanding of animal behaviour and improve welfare standards today. They were done in a different age when animal welfare was not the issue it rightly is today. Pavlovs dogs, for example, had surgically implanted tube to collect and measure saliva.
> For a more equine oriented book then Equitation Science Equitation Science: Amazon.co.uk: Paul D. McGreevy, Andrew N. McLean: Books would be a good starting point.


I never said I think horses are less complicated then others. As a matter of fact, I acknowledge and appreciate the fact that they are VERY intelligent animals and are all different in their own ways. From my opinion of the "horsenalities" descriptions, the majority are in regards to fear responses. I don't think that when horses are truly afraid, they rationalize their fear the same way we might. While some horses might be "flightier" and others may be more "brave" about scary objects, I think that basic survival needs are all the same...across the board. Even for human beings. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here. I'm not trying to argue, or turn your thread away from your original intention. I may not agree, but I definitely don't mean or intend to be dramatic or disrespectful! As far as having a human bias, I think we all do to some point. Some more so then others. But to be honest, no human would ever be successful with a creature who speaks a totally different language, unless they put themselves in their shoes and tried to think as they do. So yes, I do try to think as a horse. But also after observing them, I would have to say that the "horsenalities" are more for the human to dissect and classify their horse. I truly cannot put my mare in just ONE of those categories. If I had, I would've limited our communication and success together.


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## Pegasus1

Ok. Glad I got a debate going . One mistake I made in the original post is that I linked to the purely hegative attributes chart. This is a better link http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...TUjYEg&usg=AFQjCNEEcv9q1WXCAlgI_t0HurZjPzD8YQ which has both the positive and negative attributes chart. Too many people concentrate on what their horse can't do, and I agree with the poster who said lots of folks use it as an excuse for not even trying to do particular things with their horses. That is an abuse of the horsenality system. It is not to explain what can't be done, just to point out areas where your horse, with its' current horsenality will struggle. This gives the horseman a chance to empathise with the horse and work gently with the problem area to overcome it, not ignore it all together. Also, if the horseman knows there is likely to be a problem with a particular area of training it stops them going predatorial and forcing the horse through its' thresholds just to achieve a task, whilst doing huge damage to the rapport.
An example of this might be playing with a Left Brain Introvert. They hate to move their feet, and so to get them to maintain gait without continuous nagging is a challenge. They are easy to spot on your yard as they are ridden by people who are continuously using their legs to maintain gait, making weird noises to their horses to help the leg and the horse has a sour look on its' face.They need a reason to move and a known duration of activity to really engage in it. 
Point to Point is a good pattern for them. When following the rail around an arena take a rest in each corner. This gives them a known destination which they then make an effort to get to. With our LBI it worked wonders with transitions. The merest suggestion of asking for canter and he would. He knew the quicker he got to the next corner, the quicker he got to rest. And he maintained gait right up to the fence. Once the game is established then miss out a corner, so he has to go two sides of the arena to get rest. All the time he is learning the responsibility to maintain gait. After a week or two we were cantering 5 to 10 minutes on each rein without stopping. Prior to this, in fact prior to Parelli, he would buck into every canter, his way of saying "I don't see the point in this, I don't want to go". 
And as for the comment "I don't want to play with my horse", that's a shame. It's a phrase we use to help us not become direct line thinkers with the horse. By thinking about playing it keeps your attitude and body language light and, well, playful. I find that in this frame of mind, when I hit a problem I am more likely to use lateral thinking and puzzle a way through it, like you would in a game, rather than getting frustrated and blasting a direct line through it which rarely works.
To answer AceIsHigh post on the 7 games. I strongly suggest that you read my post on the http://www.horseforum.com/natural-horsemanship/7-parelli-games-141054/ thread. You'll find a proper explanation of the 7 games there rather than the rather biased and negative view you currently have of them.


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## Army wife

Even with that chart I'd say my mare has a few personalities out of all them! But heck, she's always been kind of an odd ball  You know, I 100% agree with you on people making excuses not to do things with their horses because they think their horses "can't" or "won't" do it. Something I've learned, if you don't find your horses weak points, you"ll NEVER be able to help turn them into their strengths. Like us, if we avoid our weaknesses, how will we ever overcome them and become a stronger person? I know, you wanted a debate...sorry, I'll stop agreeing with you now!! lol


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## Pegasus1

I totally agree that horses should not be shoe horned into a particular horsenality for life. That has been one of the faults of the Parelli program that I agree with most of you on. If you look closely at what they say I don't think it is a fault of the educational material as such, they say repeatedly that you must play with the horse that turns up on the day, hour, minute, second. 
The value of the idea is to allow inexperienced folks to asses what sort of horse is in front of them this second and react accordingly. Without the knowledge that, superficially, an LBI can look a lot like and RBI it would be extememly easy to get into serious trouble. An LBI stands there looking calm and collected with a "you and whose army is going to make me" expression which is unlikely to do much if you push them but get firmer in their resolve not to move. An RBI looks calm, quiet as well. The difference is that they are unconfident to downright scared, but have withdrawn into a "happy place" inside their minds where they don't even notice that you are pressuring them to do something. Right up until the point they can hold it in no longer and explode. How many stories have we heard of the quiet calm horse who "for no reason, bucked me off, kicked me on the way down and ran for the hills". There was a reason, they could take no more pressure and like a pressure cooker that is too hot suddenly exploded.
There is merit in knowing what the inherent horsenality of the horse is as well, again especially for the inexperienced horseman. Even though your horse could be all over the chart depending on circumstance, if the horsemen is not sure where to start there is a good chance that the inherent horsenality and associated ideas, attitudes and techniques will not actually do too much harm. Thus the horseman can, in reasonable safety continue to work with the horse and gain the experience needed to assess the horse on a second by second basis. Something I suspect the "anti" folks on this thread already do subconsciously and so cannot understand why for inexperienced people this can be a useful tool. It's (over)simplification is one of its' strengths for people who are just learning about horses. It will try to keep them safe(r) whilst they learn there is much more to learn !

RBI = Right Brain Introvert
LBI = Left Brain Introvert


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## bsms

I've never read Parelli and have only seen a few clips of video. I've got one book by CA. I read it 4 years ago and haven't re-read it. My wife bought a mare that had never been ridden and we hired a trainer to break her. I later rode the little mare out, and then the same trainer worked with the mare & my daughter for riding lessons. 










Our Appy gelding was spurred viciously at a ranch he was loaned to just before we got him. 










He was very erratic to ride, and we eventually let him stand around for 8 months. Then we again hired the same trainer, and he spent 5 weeks at her place. He came back a bit timid, but ready to ride. Again, I rode him out first until my daughter was ready to take lessons on him. He is now an excellent horse - willing to move out if asked, willing to loaf if not asked, and always determined to stay between his rider and the ground. He is easily our best horse.

Mia & I have been at it for 4 years. I couldn't count the spooks and bolts we did. Eventually, she was so spooky I stopped riding her, for 8 months as it turned out, until I felt my riding had improved. I then hired the same trainer, who was very worried about Mia for the first 4 sessions. On the 5th, she concluded Mia had never been broken at all, which gave a way ahead. She came over 4 times/week for 3 months, and twice/week for 3 more.










Sorry for the history, but it is needed to understand why I'm going to say what follows:

One of the things that really bothers me about the NH video trainers I've seen is that it makes people think they can train a horse when they don't have enough experience at reading a horse. I now have watched a trainer working a horse for countless sessions, and have had her supervise me doing round penning and have ridden out several horses. If someone asked me to do even elementary horse training, I'd tell them to go get someone who knows what they are doing.

As I watched someone who has lived her entire life with horses work on desensitizing Trooper and later Mia, I realized that doing it successfully depends very heavily on reading the horse's mind and emotions and pushing enough but not too far, and knowing when it is time to back off. And I mean time as in 1-2 seconds of accuracy.

After 4.5 years being around horses every day, I wouldn't feel confident doing that with a horse. Get the timing off by just a little, or misread the horse's emotions, and you can take 10 steps back in 2 minutes.

From a 'horsenalities' perspective, if you really need a chart to see it, then you probably aren't ready to train a horse. Not without supervision. At least, not a 'problem horse'. Once someone has enough experience to train a non-problem horse, then maybe the stuff Parelli (or Lyons, or Anderson) teaches may help a new trainer make progress. I can easily see any of these programs as a 'teach the teacher' type system. The trainer who has done so much for my horses (and daughter) was taught under Lyons program, although she has continued to study with others to broaden her outlook. But she went to Lyons having grown up with horses and competed in barrel racing. She had 20+ years around horses before trying to learn a systematic approach to training them.

I object to the marketing which tells people you can learn to train a horse even if you are brand new to horses. You can certainly ride them out, and give them experience at what they have been taught, but there is a big difference between that and actually training a horse - particularly one with bad habits or bad training.

Give me another year or two, and I might be at the point where I could read a horse well enough to START using Lyons or Parelli or Anderson to learn about training a horse. My guess about why people get 'stuck' using Parelli or other video trainers is that they just can't read a horse well enough to have any real chance of success in training one. And a personality chart won't solve that!


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## jaydee

I think you might be right when you say that most of the 'antis' are people who arent new to horses. I'm fortunate to have been into a horsey family of many generations and surrounded by extended family and friends who were the same.
I think that anything that helps people to really progess with their horses cant be a bad thing wherever it comes from but some of it just seems to be about avoidance - too much play maybe?
I am in the 'older peoples club' so I guess I do take a lot for granted about the way I handle my horses. For me its about getting on with the job, when a horse reacts in a certain way I dont stand around psychoanalysing it I just deal with it as it comes because its not usually something I havent seen before. When I get a new horse and dont know enough about it I could spend hours trying to imagine all sorts of scenarios to explain behaviours but I'd only be guessing and thats not going to get a problem solved. 
We cant understand our fellow humans or our own irrational fears so what chance do we have of understanding a horse?
A lot of the time you have to think on your feet. Same with riding I cant get on a horse and be thinking 'well what will I do if it does ........' so that I'm prepared That would make me tense and horses pick up on tension really fast. What happens is that automatic reaction kicks in and the more you ride the faster you get at doing that. Most of the time I dont even think about it.


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## Oldhorselady

BSMS....I do agree with all of the trainers marketing to inexperienced people maybe making them think they can be trainers. Just like anything in life, some people get training horses and some do not. It doesn't make them less of a person, just not good at training horses....which, in turn, can be extremely dangerous...especially with a problem horse who someone got for free and had no clue what they were getting into. Some people are good at dancing, some are not....some people are good at music, some are not and so on.....

So, this was where I was left when I got my first horse. I was given a horse for my daughter, who at the time was leasing a horse and taking lessons on the weekends. I had never been around horses, except for one guided trail ride in high school, many years ago. I went to look at this free horse with my trainer and barn owner. Yes, looking back now, lots of red flags when I went to look at this horse. But, I honestly did not know any better and left it in the hands of the two people I had with me who were 'horse people' their whole lives. After 3 hours of trying to get this mare in the trailer, we took her to our barn. She wouldn't eat for a week and had to have appetite stimulant shots. She was a nervous wreck, wouldn't stand still, walked all over you, squealed and kicked out at everything. Never mind trying to get a bit in her mouth or a saddle on her back. My daughter cried after two days and hated her. My trainer had to have stiches in her head after the first lunge lesson. As news spread around, we learned more about this horse. She was never saddle broke at 16 years old. Owner told that she never would be because her bloodline was known for being crazy. Anyone trying to ride her got hurt.

So, here I am.....daughter hates her, trainer won't help me and barn owner says I need to sell her before someone gets killed. I didn't want to give up on her. I feel she needed some time and everyone just needed to calm down and stop expecting so much. I had no choice but to open a book and research online.

Was this very risky? Absolutely. Did it work out for me? Absolutely.

I will say.....and I don't want to say this wrong......but I get it. I get reading horses and the communication. Parelli, or any other trainer, didn't give it to me from a book, just helped what I already had inside and fine tuned it. Am I perfect and a know it all? No way....but I have the understanding and personality where it all worked for the basics to where this horse learned to trust and chill out to where I could call her my first horse that I actually learned to ride on.

Would I ever recommend this to just anyone? No. I've had friends who were first time horse owners since then. I tried to explain and show them certain things and it never went anywhere...they didn't get it. There also was a friend I have that 'did' get it. Her and I have similar relaxed, patient and observant personalities maybe?

Can I train a horse beyond the basics of riding? No way. Am I a magical person? No way. But I had enough to change a very potentially dangerous situation into a wonderful relationship. Was this due to a NH trainer specifically? No. If I was a person who maybe didn't comprehend the whole picture from the beginning, it may never have worked no matter how many trainers I watched or books I read.

I hope this makes sense. I always say I'm not a good teacher because I can't explain things clearly.

So, horsenality charts, or anything else isn't magic. It was simply a guideline to follow, which changed during training, or even with one specific situation. But it made me aware that these horse traits existed. I am a literal person and can't say that if it was given to me in black and white that I would have noticed all this at first by just watching a horse. It was a starting point and, like I said, a simple guideline. For experienced horse people, you already have that knowledge so it seems mindless.


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## blue eyed pony

According to the "negative attribute" chart my filly is heavily right brained [I agree with this - she is highly reactive] and leans towards the introvert but she fits in both introvert AND extrovert. More towards the introvert though in that she seems so calm and quiet and then explodes over "nothing" and everything.

Gelding is heavily left brain. He is SO smart! Holds grudges, gets jealous like you wouldn't believe, can be hard to motivate. He routinely flicks between LBI and LBE and it's a pain in the butt because I never know whether to expect lazy or forward.

Mum's pony is left brain too. On the line, I think. She is just forward enough but not too forward, very smart, tends to be a bit pushy/dominant.

I tend to work best with LBI's because I am very dominant and high-energy so I have enough energy for both of us. I would say that probably the most difficult "type" for me to work with would be RBI's because I do push harder if I'm not getting what I want and I do tend to push a little too far when they're the sort of horse that goes into their "happy place". RBE's are also challenging but at least with them I know to always tone down my energy and I'm not tempted to push harder!


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## jaydee

*Oldhorselady* What you are saying actually makes a lot of sense though it might not be obvious to some people. What it almost comes down to is 'You either have it or you dont' 
Some people could read all the books, watch all the videos and get all the right hands on training and they would never 'have it' while others with no real help at all will take on an animal they have no real experience with and somehow make a success of it
I'm not sure how much of it is plain common sense and how much is the natural ability to read animals and see things in them that you will also see in children or dogs
Too many people think that a problem horse can be cured with aggression and too many people think it can be done with unlimited treats and a lot totally underestimate the horses ability to 'play you'


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## Oldhorselady

jaydee said:


> *Oldhorselady* What you are saying actually makes a lot of sense though it might not be obvious to some people. What it almost comes down to is 'You either have it or you dont'
> Some people could read all the books, watch all the videos and get all the right hands on training and they would never 'have it' while others with no real help at all will take on an animal they have no real experience with and somehow make a success of it
> I'm not sure how much of it is plain common sense and how much is the natural ability to read animals and see things in them that you will also see in children or dogs
> Too many people think that a problem horse can be cured with aggression and too many people think it can be done with unlimited treats and a lot totally underestimate the horses ability to 'play you'


THANK YOU...exactly!!!!!! Well said.


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## bsms

I think some people are natural, and some definitely are not. I think most of us are in between. I have no natural ability to read a horse, but I can do so far better now than I could 4 years ago. But my reading is limited. After 4 years and uncounted hours with Mia, she & I get along fairly well. I can usually read Trooper all right, and most strange horses I meet seem to accept me fairly quick as someone of good intentions, at least.

However, there are problem horses who would be way outside my experience. There are horses who could deceive me, because I wouldn't catch their signals. And there is no way I would attempt to do any serious training, apart from the sort of training we all do every time we ride. I have a long way to go before it will be "instinctive enough" for me to be good with an average horse.

Some horses are pretty straightforward. Some are not. Mia is complex, but it is worth noting that I rode her for 2 years as a total beginner, PRIOR to her ever learning about yielding to pressure, standard bit & leg cues, etc. As the trainer put it a couple of weeks after she concluded Mia had never been trained, or had very minimal training a long time ago: the good news was that meant she had uncommonly good intentions, while the bad news was her real training was starting at 11 years old. But she tried to make it work for 2 years even though she didn't understand. Like a lot of horses, she is a very forgiving creature who wants to get along. That saves a lot of us from ourselves...:wink:


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## Lockwood

jaydee said:


> ..... What it almost comes down to is 'You either have it or you dont'
> Some people could read all the books, watch all the videos and get all the right hands on training and they would never 'have it' while others with no real help at all will take on an animal they have no real experience with and somehow make a success of it
> I'm not sure how much of it is plain common sense and how much is the natural ability to read animals and see things in them that you will also see in children or dogs......


You hit it exactly, and it’s what I alluded to in my post about common sense and the lack of I see too much these days.

I was raised around horses and all manner of animals and seemed to have an innate sense to read them. I understood all kinds of herd/species dynamics from a very young age, and the approach/retreat ideas as well as the drive forward/turn away by simply choosing to apply pressure in front of/behind the shoulder. This works for most herd and prey animals and isn’t unique to horses or the trainers who teach it.
No one ever had to explain these things to me, or the fight/flight type of thinking as well as the zones of comfortableness in prey animals. Making the right thing comfortable and the wrong thing uncomfortable works as a training tool with many animals.
Anyone ever heard of halter breaking a calf by tying it to a donkey? Calf will learn very quickly to give to the pressure and follow the donkey because the donkey is going to go where it wants to go regardless of having to drag a calf along or not.
Years ago this was a very common way to halter break nearly any animal with hooves and it worked. (Not saying it was nice, just that many people used the concept.)

So, after riding and working with animals for 25 years, I had to move to and work in the city. The ability to read most animals did get a little rusty, but after returning to having a farm it came back nicely. I did not, however, ever have the ability to read kids… that’s for sure! LOL And I’m still allergic to all of them except my own.

Seeing what some of these trainers/human coaches are doing mostly makes me grin because yes, these ideas have been around for ages. But I wouldn’t say it is the experienced people that are the anti’s.....we are just the ones kicking ourselves because we didn’t think to market the stuff and get rich like they did. :?

Anyway, unfortunately a friend of mine doesn’t have “it” and never will. She has done the trainer in a box thing, was able to get her horse to back up by wiggling a rope, and produce some ok ground manners, but she never understood what she was doing/asking of the horse or why. She never understood the way horses think or why they do what they do.
She has also had farm animals of all kinds for many many years and is no closer to understanding any of them.
I’ve unfortunately had to help her way too much and know this first hand. She can fake it a little when an animal is standing still and being good (any animal) but beyond that, she is the one who is mentally going… “Ok, the trainer said do “xyz” and animal will do “abc“ but it isn‘t working….I have no idea what to do now!!??”

I do believe her lack of ability to read and understand the basic concept of horses is what led to her terrible wreck of a riding accident that changed her life (before I knew her.)
So yes, there is a flip side as mentioned above that some people will think their abilities are far greater than they really are, which obviously can be dangerous.


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## Oldhorselady

I think my situation was founded by luck. I was forced into the situation, not knowing it would work. But had to try.

There are also trainers, with the gimmicks included, who look like they don't get it....despite their proclaimed knowledge.


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## Saranda

I think I've got at least some natural feel in me, but I'm hesitant to call it a gift or anything of the kind. I'm still learning and I always will be, and some amount of talent should not stop me from gaining all the experience I can get. I know just one thing - calming down flighty horses and speeding up the lazy ones comes easy to me, but that should never make me thinking that I can find my way with ANY horse I meet. They are all so different and I think every person should regard a horse just as a slightly different equivalent to himself, and thus be open to anything that he horse has to offer.


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## jaydee

I have all respect for people like* bsms* and others who are open to admit they are a bit 'lost' - happens to everyone after all - but they seek out someone to hands on help them instead of relying so much on Youtube videos and Trainers with good marketing skills. You can master the basics to a certain extent but having someone on the ground that can point out your faults and also show you how it should be done with your horse makes a huge difference
A lot of people do over react to things - horses are big powerful animals so easily done and calling bluff when you arent sure if thats the right thing to do is very daunting so you tread that fine line between going in all guns ablazing or letting them intimidate you. Trouble is no one thats not there with you reading that horse can actually give you safe advice which I suppose takes it back to trying to buy the 'right' horse in the first place and avoiding complications
The sort of people that really annoy me are the ones who have only had really nice well behaved well trained schoolmasters and assume that somehow makes them an expert with a right to judge others


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## gypsygirl

idk...i agree with what you guys are saying about people who know nothing and want a trainer in a box AND people who have been around horses forever and dont need that kind of help. but all i can think is that most of the horse people i know are somewhere in between, so doesnt this sort of thing help them a lot ?

just thinking out loud...


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## jaydee

You can be around horses forever and still not have a clue so anything that makes people see horses as individuals - all different has to help. 
Too many narrow minded/one size fits all philosophies out there
And if I dont do some ironing I will run out of clothes soon


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## bsms

How much it helps depends on the person knowing how much he has or has not learned. When I first got started in horses, Statelinetack had a bunch of free videos by Chris Irwin. Those videos were of enormous help to me, but they didn't pretend to make you a horse trainer. They just helped you with things like: how to best approach a horse, how to lead a horse, how a horse interprets and expresses aggression, how to handle a horse so the horse won't feel bullied, etc. They were great for teaching me why my horses sometimes acted irritated or nervous around me, and how I could make them feel comfortable.

What worries me is when I see videos like "How to start a colt!" Frankly, if you think you need to see a 30 minute video on how to start a colt, you shouldn't buy a colt and try to start him. If you are just looking to expand your horizons, it is fine. But you cannot learn how to train a problem horse from a video. 

Mia doesn't have a malicious bone in her body, but she has enough inner demons of fear and a big lack of confidence that she can be challenging for someone like me to ride. But in today's market, there was no one with experience who would have bought her (or taken her in) for the pleasure of training her and selling her, because the end result wouldn't have enough value to pay for her training. So it was to the auction with her, or up to me to find help and try to work thru things with her. She has been a great horse for me, because she motivated me to learn and she pushes my envelope darn near every ride. But she has been a horrible horse for me, because I've never known what it is like to relax on a horse. Every ride is an adventure, but sometimes I don't *want* adventure. Boring would be nice, once in a while!

I honestly think Mia is at the upper limit for someone like me to ever work with. She was way beyond my limit for knowing how to train her. Even with watching a trainer work several horses, and hours of videos, and books, and advice - those aren't a substitute for 20 years with horses, or for an innate understanding of them. And Mia is, to her credit, a sweetheart. After 4+ years with her, I feel comfortable saying she would never intentionally hurt me...but I can still feel stiffness and a bit of soreness in my lower right back, where she unintentionally hurt me 4 years ago in January.

I think the video trainers provide a valuable service to someone who is willing to admit they also need a human to help them. I think they ruin some horses by giving people the belief that they know how to train a horse even tho they are barely competent enough to lead one on a lead line...

I guess, in the end, for some people, there is no cure for stupid.


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## sherkad25

This has been an interesting thread. I don't know much about the Parellis, but I do remember reading an article in one of the magazines quite a while ago about "horsenalities" and left brain right brain stuff. I didn't pay alot of attention to it, but I do know every horse is different and you can't treat them all the same. I think most anyone can get enough knowledge to work with a horse from a DVD or whatever, but I think what the best trainers I've seen have, that you can't learn from watching a show, are wisdom and an appropriate temperament. This thread seems to elude to both.


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## Saddlebag

From observation, the "horsenalities" has created a lot of confusion. Klaus Ferdinand has a few videos on youtube that better describe horses by common traits and has given these a name for easy reference. I read all that stuff and am glad I didn't get caught up in it as the focus would switch from doing something with the horse to worrying too much about whether it's right or wrong. Do you know why a horse will bond with a person? Because he doesn't know he's a horse. He has no knowledge of what he looks like and can only go by what his mother looks like when he is born.


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## jaydee

bsms said:


> How much it helps depends on the person knowing how much he has or has not learned. When I first got started in horses, Statelinetack had a bunch of free videos by Chris Irwin. Those videos were of enormous help to me, but they didn't pretend to make you a horse trainer. They just helped you with things like: how to best approach a horse, how to lead a horse, how a horse interprets and expresses aggression, how to handle a horse so the horse won't feel bullied, etc. They were great for teaching me why my horses sometimes acted irritated or nervous around me, and how I could make them feel comfortable.
> 
> What worries me is when I see videos like "How to start a colt!" Frankly, if you think you need to see a 30 minute video on how to start a colt, you shouldn't buy a colt and try to start him. If you are just looking to expand your horizons, it is fine. But you cannot learn how to train a problem horse from a video.
> 
> Mia doesn't have a malicious bone in her body, but she has enough inner demons of fear and a big lack of confidence that she can be challenging for someone like me to ride. But in today's market, there was no one with experience who would have bought her (or taken her in) for the pleasure of training her and selling her, because the end result wouldn't have enough value to pay for her training. So it was to the auction with her, or up to me to find help and try to work thru things with her. She has been a great horse for me, because she motivated me to learn and she pushes my envelope darn near every ride. But she has been a horrible horse for me, because I've never known what it is like to relax on a horse. Every ride is an adventure, but sometimes I don't *want* adventure. Boring would be nice, once in a while!
> 
> I honestly think Mia is at the upper limit for someone like me to ever work with. She was way beyond my limit for knowing how to train her. Even with watching a trainer work several horses, and hours of videos, and books, and advice - those aren't a substitute for 20 years with horses, or for an innate understanding of them. And Mia is, to her credit, a sweetheart. After 4+ years with her, I feel comfortable saying she would never intentionally hurt me...but I can still feel stiffness and a bit of soreness in my lower right back, where she unintentionally hurt me 4 years ago in January.
> 
> I think the video trainers provide a valuable service to someone who is willing to admit they also need a human to help them. I think they ruin some horses by giving people the belief that they know how to train a horse even tho they are barely competent enough to lead one on a lead line...
> 
> I guess, in the end, for some people, there is no cure for stupid.


 We seem to be singing from the same sheet on this one anyway!!!
I cringe when I hear someone say that they have learnt how to catch, lead, groom and tack up etc all thanks to one youtube video trainer (Trainer in the loosest possible sense of the word). All I can say is they're really lucky that they bought a good obliging horse that someone else had put a lot of effort into because really these are things that you need to know before you buy a horse - and then they move on to a challenging one and most often disaster strikes
These are the same people who will tell you if things dont work out that its your fault - that you got it wrong - when in reality its often you are just too far out of your comfort zone or the horse is just too much for you. Some things you can put right and some you cant
I got a horse about 8 years ago that had been point to pointed but not fast enough and the seller thought he might make a nice one day eventer.
I loved that horse from day 1, he was perfect on the roads, he came on really well in his dressage and showjumping but the moment his feet touched an open stretch of grass he was gone. I did a few terrifying cross country courses on him - he never hit anything but I felt so out of control over things that weren't going to easily fall down I knew I was out of my strength zone even in the strongest bit. I had him for a while with a rider who competes at the Badminton level and she said he seriously scared her too so as most of our local rides involved going over fields I decided to let him go - to a 6ft 2 196lb man who hunted him no trouble. he just had more weight behind the bit than I ever could
Could be you need a more solid reliable horse *bsms* that will give you confidence and show you how to relax and enjoy riding more? I wouldnt like to suggest that at the expense of anything bad happening to Mia though - maybe a second horse?


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## Foxhunter

So, if horses can be classed as left or right brained, introvert or extrovert how can it be explained that a horse ridden by one rider goes brilliantly, is brave, never spooks, jumps anything first or last, bomb proof in traffic and good to do anything with, yet, with another rider who is more experienced becomes a nervous wreck and does nothing correctly? 
Two totally different personalities but the same horse in the same environment.

That same mare was always the last to go to the feed in the field, she would have all foals following her within minutes of being out with them, she would allow them to feed from her bowl.

Anyone who knows horses would say that because she was the last to the feed bowls she was lowest in pecking order yet nothing would ever try to drive her away from it and occasionally the mare that looked boss must have annoyed her because she would just keep driving that boss mare away from every bowl she went to. No threatening with ears back and teeth or heels, she would just walk towards the bowl and the boss mare would move. 

So, what personality would she have been?


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## bsms

jaydee said:


> ...Could be you need a more solid reliable horse *bsms* that will give you confidence and show you how to relax and enjoy riding more? I wouldnt like to suggest that at the expense of anything bad happening to Mia though - maybe a second horse?


fftopic:

Off topic, but...my wife and I have talked about it. Trooper is a good horse, but he's ridden by the females and he honestly likes females. He tolerates me, but the hard use he saw when loaned to a ranch seems to have soured him on guys. Mia, incidentally, adores guys. She darn near tries to climb into our farriers lap while he trims the other horses.

Cowboy is a good little trail horse, but at 13 hands and maybe 650 lbs, I'm a burden to him. He may end up being more pet than riding horse, or get used a year from now when our granddaughter is old enough. I may talk to the trainer who did so much for us, and ask her to keep her ears open for a good trail horse. It would improve my riding, and that in turn would be good for Mia as well. I can't really imagine ever selling Mia. I don't know anyone who wants her, for one thing, and she tries very hard...just too much imagination!

OK - back to Parelli, video trainers and horse personalities!


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## Fargosgirl

In my experience, horses of any horsenality type can be herd leaders, though confident calm (Left Brained on the PP chart) are a bit more likely to be the heard leaders because they are not as intimidated by other horses, but that is not always the case.

There seems to be some confusion about what Horsenality is. It is NOT meant to classify every reaction of a single horse, it is just a general statement of how a horse USUALLY behaves, and how it should USUALLY be trained. Outside stimuli, including the changing of a rider can greatly effect a horses usual behavior patterns.

As an example, my grandfather was a calm good natured man who was reserved and not given to expressing his emotions publicly, but he cried like a baby when he seen my brother born. My mother is out going, generous and kind, but when she gets around my sister in law, she becomes quiet and snarky when she does talk.

In the same way, when we label a horse to a certain Horsenality, we are not making a hard and fast decision about how we expect our horse to act all the time. A horse's Horsenality can also be shaped by experiences and training, horses can be made either more confident or more fearful. They can also be taught to enjoy moving forward, or discouraged from moving as much, all in how they are trained and ridden. 

Horsenality type just states how a horse innately will most likely react the majority of the time. It is meant simply as a starting point for outlining your training program, knowing both your horse's likely strengths and weaknesses so the horse can be benefited.


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## justicehorse

I think parelli went too far with charts and categories for marketing sake, but the information is good. Horses have different personalities and varying degrees of spirit. Based on the type of personality an individual horse has, he/she will respond accordingly to certain situations, training techniques, and types of activities. This may seem like common sense to many, but sometimes it helps to have information pounded in basic kindergarten language for some people to fully mentally process.

Many horse buyers do not assess a horse's personality. They do not ask themselves if their wants and skill set match that horse. Often they find themselves in over their head with a horse or view their horse negatively. And way too often I hear a story about a horse being sold to someone more suited to handling that horse. At least parelli is trying to get people to understand horses better and show his students how to adjust training techniques so that the ownership turn-over is not so bad. My arab (with excellent bloodlines/conformation/health) came to me over a decade ago as a 14yo, abandoned by his 5th owner. He is a great horse that was very misunderstood. Parelli gave me the knowledge and tools to develop a wonderful lifetime partner. So... even with my distaste for the marketing, if parelli helps people find lifetime relationships with their horses, that's awesome. 

And to answer the question about why a horse acts differently depending on who is handling him... as I posted before, a key element to a horse's personality is learned behavior. A horse learns quickly that not all humans are created equal and will adjust/modify its personality accordingly.


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## Shropshirerosie

Subbing, because it's my bedtime and I want to read this tomorrow


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## Fargosgirl

This is a little off topic, but I wanted to speak up. Many here have said that you can't really learn horsemanship from "a trainer in a box", in some ways I agree, you have to get out, use some trial/error and common sense.

BUT for me videos have been a lifesaver! I have learned everything I know about training, from books and videos, I have never had a personal "mentor" and only have been able to afford one live lesson with a professional trainer. While I know I still have holes in my horsemanship, and riding abilities, I also know _what_ those flaws are and I have strategies for working on them. Because of Parelli, Lyons, Hempfling,and other trainers who try to put their thought down in simple terms, I continue to make progress, in training my horses and myself.


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## CessBee

I honestly think that it is a no brainer that different horses need different training methods. If you have 10 horses, chances are they aren't all going to fit one rug, so why should training methods be any different?

In my experience some people need this kind of guidance to help them work with their horse, which I have no problem with, it's when people spout "OMG THIS IS THE BEST THING EVER YOU HAVE TO USE THIS AND IF YOU DON'T YOU DON'T LOVE YOUR HORSE"***

Good horsemanship comes from common sense, not from books and videos. Books and videos can help, but in reality they aren't going to solve all your problems, you need to have the right mindset to see this is what X person does with X horse and it works, my horse is similar to that horse, maybe it will work for me too, person goes out and tries it, if it works good they continue with that method, if it doesn't, well back to the drawing board. But in the end that's still common sense.



***Note, none of this has been said here, but I have seen it.


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## jaydee

Foxhunter said:


> So, if horses can be classed as left or right brained, introvert or extrovert how can it be explained that a horse ridden by one rider goes brilliantly, is brave, never spooks, jumps anything first or last, bomb proof in traffic and good to do anything with, yet, with another rider who is more experienced becomes a nervous wreck and does nothing correctly?
> Two totally different personalities but the same horse in the same environment.
> 
> That same mare was always the last to go to the feed in the field, she would have all foals following her within minutes of being out with them, she would allow them to feed from her bowl.
> 
> Anyone who knows horses would say that because she was the last to the feed bowls she was lowest in pecking order yet nothing would ever try to drive her away from it and occasionally the mare that looked boss must have annoyed her because she would just keep driving that boss mare away from every bowl she went to. No threatening with ears back and teeth or heels, she would just walk towards the bowl and the boss mare would move.
> 
> So, what personality would she have been?


 Thats not unlike Mark Rashids view on is the Alpha mare actually a leader and why its probably not a good idea to liken ourselves to an alpha mare in the eay we treat horses
Our ID apperars to be at the bottom of the heap, she happily stands back and allows the others to take first pick but if she wants to be first she just walks calmly through and they all stand back - no threatening at all. If anythings going on in the field that disturbs them she is the one they all follow and lean on for guidance.
Our clyde cross is your typical alpha - appears dominant, something of a bully who will try to force the others into whatever she wants but no one follows her, they mostly will keep a distance from her
Out riding the ID will always attack the spooky thing head on regardless of rider but actually prefers a quieter non aggressive rider as she dislikes too much confrontational pressure but the clyde cross totally relies on a confident rider to lean on and responds better to a stronger experienced rider
He calls it passive dominant


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## PunksTank

justicehorse said:


> I think parelli went too far with charts and categories for marketing sake, but the information is good.


I think this exact quote is Parelli's issue with everything - and many other big name trainers too. The information, the foundation, the skills are all well founded intelligent ideas. But they're taken to a marketing extreme which attracts many, but repels many more. This over marketing leads to a loss of valuable information, which is unfortunate. It also leaves it subject to personal opinions - as seen by this forum, 30+ people can read the Horsenality page and see 40 different things. Information like this needs to be thoroughly explained, even studied by the reader, not mass produced in 'simple easy to understand' ways, that really don't teach you the solid facts behind the concepts. 
These big name trainers try to mass produce their styles with the idea of 'follow these simple steps and you too can be a trainer!' but the 'simple steps' require more than a little actual understanding of how and why the methods work, how and why horsenalities actually matter. So unfortunately his marketing did him more of a disservice than anything.

Sorry if I repeated anything someone's already said.


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## Pegasus1

If you just look at the horsenality chart and conclude that this is the main information about horsenality I would agree that it is insufficient knowledge. In fact there is a video pack with 14 hours of DVDs which take you by the hand reading horse behaviour, both classroom lectures and just watching, real time, horse behaviour. It can be a bit like watching paint dry, but was very valuable to me. I could sit at home in comfort and see horse behaviour occurring with expert commentary on top. This does NOT compare with years of experience watching and playing with real horses, of course not. What it did do was give me a primer lesson so I did not spend years not even noticing subtle cues from horses. I could see things happening which without this knowledge I would have just missed, from that foundation experience could be built much faster.
There is also a huge amount of online information on the Parelli website about this topic, but then of course you have to pay to see this. Digital access is $9.99 a month, and the first 30 days is free. Not exactly exorbitant but you can watch the whole level one pack online. (Bit upset about that to be honest, as I bought the DVD pack  )

For those who think that Parelli is a video training program I would have to disagree. They do have DVDs of course, but they are just for homework. Real knowledge comes from the instructors, who, having all been trained by Parelli, at least all speak about the same language, but with personal styles. Personally I liked James Roberts teaching style, it was tough, fun and fair. But I have lessons with others to, in fact I am having one from one of Pats apprentices tomorrow  .
I also agree that it is a mistake to think that you can use a box set of DVDs to become a horse trainer. Pat suggests that you need to be a minimum of Level 3 to even think of training a young horse, and then only under supervision.

I think it may also interest folks as to where the horsenality idea originated. When Linda first married Pat and travelled on his road shows with him she would see him work with different horses at each show stop. And each time he did things differently being the natural horseman he is. Of course she could badger him with questions as to why he did one thing with one horse and something else with another. Slowly she began to see a pattern. According to her she suddenly got inspiration at 3 in the morning and dashed downstairs to write it down. She was so excited that she took Pat coffee early in the morning, who just insisted on drinking the coffee in peace first before he looked at anything. When he did finally look at the prototype chart he just said "Yup, that's about right" and thought it no big deal. I guess for him it was all obvious and did not need writing down, but for his student Linda, it gave her a knew way to look at horses and start to gain experience. 
That is how I think about the folks on this forum. There are those for whom it is all innately obvious and doesn't need writing down and is thus just marketing hype to make money off the gullible. They probably can't even remember the time when they were groping in the dark to understand behaviour, and what a bewildering place it can be.
For others it is a place to start the path to experience from, without wandering around for years in the dark before we start to notice patterns in horse behaviour ourselves. If it accelerates the progress of these folks so that they can enjoy being around their horses and maybe even be a little safer I can only say it is a good thing. It certainly provided this function for me. 
Do I think of the horsenality in analytic terms these days. When I'm with the horse, mostly not. When I'm reviewing, or planning a session then often yes. That probably means I am part way along the path of reading horses naturally. Could I have got to this point without the training from Parelli over the last 3 years ? Almost certainly not.


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## GotaDunQH

PunksTank said:


> I think this exact quote is Parelli's issue with everything - and many other big name trainers too. The information, the foundation, the skills are all well founded intelligent ideas. But they're taken to a marketing extreme which attracts many, but repels many more. This over marketing leads to a loss of valuable information, which is unfortunate. It also leaves it subject to personal opinions - as seen by this forum, 30+ people can read the Horsenality page and see 40 different things. Information like this needs to be thoroughly explained, even studied by the reader, not mass produced in 'simple easy to understand' ways, that really don't teach you the solid facts behind the concepts.
> These big name trainers try to mass produce their styles with the idea of 'follow these simple steps and you too can be a trainer!' but the 'simple steps' require more than a little actual understanding of how and why the methods work, how and why horsenalities actually matter. So unfortunately his marketing did him more of a disservice than anything.
> 
> Sorry if I repeated anything someone's already said.


Love this post....best one on here is you ask me. First off, I am not a PP or LP fan at all and I won't turn it into a bash fest, but will explain why because it IS founded in facts. He teaches nothing about correct riding and he himself is not a great rider. He may have been around for a while, but so have I.....51 years in the business. Yes, the marketing turns me off big time, but there is also some hypocrisy with PP and LP....ESPECIALLY when their previous views of Dressage were a thumbs down. Now LP claims to be an expert and has actually put all across the internet...that SHE has unlocked the secret to getting a horse "on the bit". It's laughable. 

As for horsenalities thing, one more cutesy thing for the PP system. Yes, horses have "personalities", but if you hang around with them long enough...you can pretty much figure them out. But because PP puts his name on it, it becomes this big deal. All of the left brain, right brain...I'm not buying it as the way he explains it....sorry.


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## Pegasus1

GotaDunQH said:


> As for horsenalities thing, one more cutesy thing for the PP system. Yes, horses have "personalities", but if you hang around with them long enough...you can pretty much figure them out. But because PP puts his name on it, it becomes this big deal. All of the left brain, right brain...I'm not buying it as the way he explains it....sorry.


That's the point. If you hang around them long enough you will learn it all by experience. I am 49 years old, I don't have 51 years to learn. What I need is a resource which will let me know what to look for rather sooner than that. 

I suspect you'll say that you can only learn by experience, and I think that is probably the best way to learn. But what would you do if you knew that you only had a certain number of years of gaining experience left, and by the time you had gained it you would be too old to use it ?

If you have this much experience then please please write it all down, make videos of it and set up an instructors school. Then those of us coming back to horses late in life can learn from that experience, plus our own hard work in studying, to get at least half way to where you are now. Or should we just give up on our dream to be safe and have fun with horses because we are too old ?

Maybe I should have stayed in horses when I was younger, but I had such an acute allergy that I could not even get in my wife's car. It is only since new ways were invented to control that allergy that I could go back to my love of horses. This has left me with an extreme experience deficit and I find that the Parelli system, plus others, goes a long way to helping me overcome that deficit. Not all the way I'll grant you, nothing beats real experience.

I also agree that the horsenality chart is not all that is required to understand this topic. That is why there is a 14 hour dvd pack on the subject, a huge amount of info on the website, and every Parelli instructor will help you asses your own horse. It is a huge subject that I can quite believe would take 51 years to absorb without intense tuition, but the resources for that tuition are there to help you short cut it to say 20 years


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## jaydee

You are never to old to learn and I have total admiration for anyone who takes up horses later in life because you just dont see the dangers so much when you're young
But that has nothing to do with 'having a feel for horses' and I dont think its something anyone could teach you either.
14 hours of PP DVDs - I think I'd have lost the will to live never mind ride!!!
I worked with horses and hung out on yards and we bred and brought on horses ourselves and yes - you do get attached to some more than others which is really tough when they are there to be sold. I have stood crying many times when a special one went BUT each horse had to be cared for as well as the next, each one had to perform to its absolute best regardless of its personality, it doesnt take years of experience to see what they best relate too. I think you are over-thinking a lot of things and creating issues that done exist - all good for the bank balances of PP and his sort.
I am all for people having hands on tuition on basic things and on going riding but a lot of this seems like a step too far for anyone
I was really quite young when I was switching from one type of pony to another and still having to understand them so I cant help but struggle to see the need for all the hype.
Maybe you need to spend less time stressing about all this personality stuff and just relax and spend time with your horses, enjoy them, get to know them, stop trying to psychoanalyse everything they do because half the time they dont even know themselves why they do things.


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## GotaDunQH

^awesome post! People tend to overthink the way HORSES think...way too much.


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## Pegasus1

I do analyse things a great deal as for me it is a path to greater feel. My instructor James memorably said "do your thinking at night and your feeling during the day" and that is how I tend to operate. I suspect many others do as well, it depends on your personality. But then I shouldn't analyse that too much here as after all people are only people and should be treated on the forum as such and not over analysed :wink:

By profession I am a pilot. I have learnt an awful lot about aerodynamics, structures, engines, law, aircraft systems etc etc. All this knowledge is required by law for me to keep my airplane and passengers safe. Some of it I am tested on every 6 months for 2 days in a simulator. 

Do I have this knowledge at the front of my mind landing a Boeing 767 in a 30 mph cross wind onto a short runway. Of course not. I just have to feel the airplane and the wind when I do that, but all that knowledge is lurking there in the background informing my feel and letting me know where the boundaries are that should not be crossed. In moments like that the aircraft and weather really feel like living beings.

I have found the same when I play with horses. I don't think about what horsenality is in front of me much these days, but the background knowledge this information gives me enables my "feel" to be more acute and fun. I don't think about which of the 7 games I am playing, but again they inform the "feel" of what I do.

I also study the martial art Aikido. We practise the individual moves very slowly and precisely, looking at how a move effects the opponents balance. Of course this is not how you would fight, but these slow motion practises are vital to you being able to perform the correct moves under pressure. In a way that is like the early practise of the 7 games, once you know them well enough to do them without thinking they enable you to be more effective.

I have therefore learned that so long as you gain knowledge with this idea of how to eventually use it in mind, then it is rarely wrong to gain as much knowledge as you can from whatever sources are available. For me Parelli has a large part of the foundation picture, though I tend to agree with your comments about dressage. 

Pat himself says to follow the program to level 4 and then find a specialist instructor in your desired sport to train you further. And, to be honest, level 4 is where I am heading at the moment, and then I'll look around for instructors in my chosen sports probably from outside Parelli.

And who says I'm stressing about this horsenality stuff, for me its' fascinating


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## bsms

I think a few people have an innate feel for horses. Many more learn horses like they learn a language when young. **** Francis is best known as a mystery writer, but he was also a top jockey and he told people starting at 16 that they would never equal someone of the same talent who started at 5.

But in 4+ years around horses, I have learned some. Not enough to train a horse, and barely enough (if that!) to deal with my somewhat eccentric mare in daily riding. I have no use for LBI/RBE classifications, but since I started at 50 and was an F-4/F-111 WSO/EWO, I can fully understand how such a diagram could help someone learn more about horses faster than they would without. I prefer terms like fearful, submissive, imaginative, etc - those clarify things for ME. If the Parelli diagrams help someone else, well...I've got several shelves filled with books on horses, most of which didn't help me at all. I can't complain if someone spends money and actually gets something in return.

My only caution is that a person can absorb that sort of stuff and still be overhorsed. The trainer I hired has a lifetime with horses, and even she would regularly look at Mia & mutter, "What are you thinking?" It keeps me from feeling so bad when I'm confused by her too!

Happily, Mia is like a great many other horses in that she is a forgiving and giving soul. She knows I mean her well and that covers a multitude of sins. If she could talk, I'm sure she would sometimes say, "You aren't very bright, but we'll keep plugging away until you catch on..." :wink:


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## jaydee

bsms said:


> I think a few people have an innate feel for horses. Many more learn horses like they learn a language when young. **** Francis is best known as a mystery writer, but he was also a top jockey and he told people starting at 16 that they would never equal someone of the same talent who started at 5.
> 
> But in 4+ years around horses, I have learned some. Not enough to train a horse, and barely enough (if that!) to deal with my somewhat eccentric mare in daily riding. I have no use for LBI/RBE classifications, but since I started at 50 and was an F-4/F-111 WSO/EWO, I can fully understand how such a diagram could help someone learn more about horses faster than they would without. I prefer terms like fearful, submissive, imaginative, etc - those clarify things for ME. If the Parelli diagrams help someone else, well...I've got several shelves filled with books on horses, most of which didn't help me at all. I can't complain if someone spends money and actually gets something in return.
> 
> *My only caution is that a person can absorb that sort of stuff and still be* *overhorsed.* The trainer I hired has a lifetime with horses, and even she would regularly look at Mia & mutter, "What are you thinking?" It keeps me from feeling so bad when I'm confused by her too!
> 
> Happily,* Mia is like a great many other horses in that she is a forgiving and giving soul. She knows I mean her well and that covers a multitude of sins.* If she could talk, I'm sure she would sometimes say, "You aren't very bright, but we'll keep plugging away until you catch on..." :wink:


 Those two comments there pretty much sum up a lot of the root of some peoples problems and why they need someone like PP
1 They start off with the wrong horse in the first place believing it all to far easier than it is - or they are better than they actually are
2. They dont chose a horse that is basically forgiving - and actually most horses are and many are totally idiot proof which is why there arent that many cries for help on these forums in ratio to the number of people who own horses


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## Nokotaheaven

Horses have personalities and characteristics that vary as much as our own do. They can be classified into left brain extrovert/introvert, right brain extrovert/introvert, but none are completely one thing. It's like saying I am totally Introverted because I have more introverted characteristics than i do extrovert. But truth is, I'm not. I think, on this topic there is a video everyone should maybe watch. It's pointed at people, but I'd say to fully understand a horse we have to understand ourselves
The Power of Introverts - Ep 1 - YouTube


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## Nokotaheaven




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## GotaDunQH

Great stuff BSMS and Jaydee....so many people are out-horsed or not well matched to their horses according to the rider's level and the horse's level/training or lack thereof. In many of these cases, the owner's ego takes over and they insist on attempting to ride or train a horse that is beyond their level....JUST so they can say did. People get into a whole lot of trouble when their ego takes over.....safety being number one. The saying "green on green results in black and blue" is sooooo true.


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## Oldhorselady

I'm an introvert too! However, I am NOT lazy and I an reactive. I could be considered boring because I can sit, quietly for hours and be totally ok with that. I do also live in my head. I can have a whole conversation with myself in my head and solve things. I do over-think everything. I over analyze. However, I appreciate others' coversation and love to just 'watch' people do it, while I sit quietly and take it all in. However, I do worry and do have anxiety, especially when it comes to being a perfectionist. Ugh.


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## countrylove

Thank you Pegasus! I appreciate you answering my question. It has been a very interesting discussion. I would love to hear more about the personalities and less about the marketing though. I find behavioral studies fascinating even if no one else does 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PunksTank

Oldhorselady said:


> I'm an introvert too! However, I am NOT lazy and I an reactive. I could be considered boring because I can sit, quietly for hours and be totally ok with that. I do also live in my head. I can have a whole conversation with myself in my head and solve things. I do over-think everything. I over analyze. However, I appreciate others' coversation and love to just 'watch' people do it, while I sit quietly and take it all in. However, I do worry and do have anxiety, especially when it comes to being a perfectionist. Ugh.


You just described me to a T xD


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## Nokotaheaven

Oldhorselady said:


> I'm an introvert too! However, I am NOT lazy and I an reactive. I could be considered boring because I can sit, quietly for hours and be totally ok with that. I do also live in my head. I can have a whole conversation with myself in my head and solve things. I do over-think everything. I over analyze. However, I appreciate others' coversation and love to just 'watch' people do it, while I sit quietly and take it all in. However, I do worry and do have anxiety, especially when it comes to being a perfectionist. Ugh.


Haha you just described me as well xD
Except I'm more on the lazy side (i still walk/jog almost every day though). And actually I HAVE been sitting here quietly for hours reading things and having conversations with myself lol.... Haha that makes me sound like a crazy person! But then again who isn't crazy in their own way? lol


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## Saddlebag

Has anyone ever thought that it takes a trained psychologist to figure people out. I would think it would take someone that well trained to figure out horses as well. Horses have always been categorized but often referred to as "forward" ie like to be going somewhere, "spooky" self explanatory, "dull" over worked, "spoiled" self explanatory, etc and any observant horseman knew to handle each differently. A lot less confusing as well. Once a person spends time with a horse hopefully there's an understanding of how to deal with it, not psychoanalyse it.


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