# Seabiscuit v. Secretariat



## horseluver2435

Just saw Secretariat (was pretty good, but it didn't really move me like I expect most racehorse movies to), was looking at IMDB and found a few interesting threads- like Seabiscuit v. Secretariat-who do you think would've won in a match race? 

A lot of interesting points were brought up, such as Sec. having an enormous heart (someone said 3x the size of a normal horse, but I don't know how accurate that is), Seabiscuit being able to psych his competitors out, and their racing styles. Others said Pharlap or Man O' War would've beat them. 

I won't pretend to know much about racehorses- that's why I'm posting here.
Who do you think would've won?
I really want to hear everyone's opinions!


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## Redial

Pharlap.


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## RedTree

haha go Pharlap


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## horseluver2435

Reasons why?


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## iridehorses

LOL, PharLap was Australian (look at the members who posted!).

I saw the movie last night and enjoyed it. Since I lived through it, and knew how it turned out, it wasn't as stirring as the other two movies but it was a good night out.

As for who would win, I think a toss up between Big Red and Pharlap. Both horses were enigmas. Interesting that none of Secretariat's get did anything note worthy.


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## horseluver2435

Ah, that explains it.  

I think I felt the same- I knew what was going to happen. The only part I didn't expect was the mouth abscess- but even then it didn't scare me because I knew what was going to happen.
Thanks for the input!


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## Citrus

I think that since most people know Secretariats story, the movie makers are trying to play up Penny's role, thus making it new. I am going to guess it takes the focus off the horse, which is not something that should be done to a superstar like Secretariat.

And it is accurate that Big Red's heart was larger than normal.... google Secretariat'e heart...... Normal horse heart= 8.5lbs. Secretariat's heart= approximately 22lbs. Sham's heart= 18lbs. Apparently a big heart is something passed down the female side of genetics pool so of course his get would not have the same large organ....

As for who would win...... I am thinking that Secretariat would- he would let Seabiscuit play with him a bit until the far turn, and then, as always, he would take off


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## horseluver2435

That's interesting about the heart being passed through the mare! I didn't know that.


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## Sunny

I saw the movie last night and I really liked it. I knew the story but I still got a tad choked up during the Derby and Belmont. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## horseluver2435

Aw Sunny!  I was very surprised I wasn't moved by the movie- most horse movies I absolutely bawl.


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## mliponoga

Where'd you find it in theaters at? Grand Blanc?? It's definitely not in at our little theater.


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## horseluver2435

I went to a small theater near where I live, but it is playing in Grand Blanc.


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## mliponoga

Awesome, think we're going to go see it this week. And I'm clueless to race horses, so no imput on who would win.


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## EventersBabe

Well thats easy.  Secretariate I promise he would but then again Ruffian beat him 
She was a great filly.
Next question Ruffian or Rachal Alexandra or the other filly thats running in the race in Nov


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## mrtphotography

horseluver2435 said:


> Aw Sunny!  I was very surprised I wasn't moved by the movie- most horse movies I absolutely bawl.


have you seen Ruffian? now thats a really sad movie


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## noogie the pony

I am going to see secretariat tomorrow! I just love his story! personally, i think he would have won.


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## Sunny

-gasp- 
Ruffian is a movie?!?!?! Why did I not know this??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EventersBabe

Sunny said:


> -gasp-
> Ruffian is a movie?!?!?! Why did I not know this??
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Beware of the end of the match race. Not something I knew about and I was in shock and I started crying I freaked I couldnt hold it together


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## Redial

I can;t watch horse movies...Black Beauty still turns me into a complete mess and he doesn't even die.


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## kitten_Val

Does it worth to watch? To be honest I was not extremely impressed with "Seabiscuit" (although it was a good movie). I loved "Dreamer" though!


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## farmpony84

I'm going with Man O' War. I read Seabiscuits story which was really good, the version I read. I think it was by Walter Farley? Or it might have been by the guy that wrote Fury of Broken Wheel, I forget... 

Anyway, I also read Man O' Wars story and Pharlaps. I never did read anything on Secretariat, I hear about him since he was born at Meadow Even Park which is where our state fair is held. 

Man O' War is the one that impresses me the most, especially since he was forced to carry more weight then any other horse and still won by enormous distances. The only race he lost was because of a stumble and he almost caught the other horse.

He also won 2 I think of the 3 races for the triple crown. He didn't race one because his trainer felt it was too much strain on a young horse. So who knows, maybe he could have even bin a triple crown winner.

Race horse storys are so neat. These animals do have heart and they love what they do. It's a shame that most of them get "thrown away" when their careers are over. I'm just glad so many hunt folks take them on and give them new jobs.


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## horseluver2435

Alright- answers.
1. Yes, I've seen Ruffian. I completely lost it and couldn't function for about an hour afterwards. My mom thought I was nuts.

2. Worth seeing? Maybe. I suppose if you liked Dreamer, you'd really like it. I'm not a huge fan of Dreamer, but I loved Ruffian and thought Seabiscuit, so I guess it's up to you. My opinion was that while a good 'family' film, it focused more on Secretariat's owner than on Secretariat, and that's not what I look for when I go to see a horse movie.

3. I don't actually think there was a third question.  Whoops. I'm so lazy I'm not going to delete the 3.


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## mom2pride

Hmmm...I am not sure; My toss up is between Phar Lap and Seabiscuit. maybe that's because I'm a sucker for the ones who have come 'from behind' to become a champ...hahah...although, if Ruffian were thrown into the mix, now that would have been a race! Couple of awesome front runners, and a couple of come from behind greats? OMG! I'm not sure who I would bet on in that race! They were all fantastic!


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## MacabreMikolaj

I'm very eager to see it.

I have been a diehard Man O' War fan all my life. I think it really boils down to a Man O' War VS Secretariat when you're talking world's most famous/well known racehorses. It reminds me of Team Edward and Team Jacob, LOL.

I've read Walter Farley's version of Man O' War, and I think that's a huge factor. I'm extremely interested to see if Secretariat's story moves me to sway my opinion at all.

I also hold Man O' War in high regard because he was a good SIRE. Seabiscuit and Secretariat were freak flukes - Man O' War was the real deal. I measure the greatness of a horse not by what he is, but what he has done. Man O' Wars influence on the Thoroughbred breed is almost tangible - he was a magnificent racehorse, but he was a legendary sire.

Maybe they'll make a Man O' War movie next.


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## mom2pride

Me thinks Zenyatta will be made into a movie at some point...Lol!! Especially if she wins the BC classic again this year...


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## horseluver2435

I'd love to see more racehorse movies- if they're done well.  I still hold Ruffian as my favorite racehorse movie, don't ask me why. It just hits me so much harder than Seabiscuit or Secretariat.


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## Lunarflowermaiden

Redial said:


> I can;t watch horse movies...Black Beauty still turns me into a complete mess and he doesn't even die.


I know. It makes me cry every single time I watch it, from the first time I saw it in theaters (when I was about seven), till now.


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## Cinnys Whinny

I am not Australian, but I say Phar Lap! He was a freak, I love freaks.... farmpony84 argued that Man O' War Carried the most weight, 138 pounds but Phar Lap also carried 138 pounds  

Out of curiousity I just looked up Phar Lap on Wikipedia and I didn't know that they actually have determined his cause of death with forensics.



Wikipedia said:


> On 19 June 2008, the Melbourne Museum released the findings of the forensic investigation conducted by Dr. Ivan Kempson, University of South Australia, and Dermot Henry, Natural Science Collections at Museum Victoria. Dr. Kempson took six hairs from Phar Lap’s mane and analyzed them at the Advanced Photon Source at Argonne National Laboratory near Chicago. These high resolution x-rays detect arsenic in hair samples, showing the specific difference "between arsenic, which had entered the hair cells via the blood and arsenic, which had infused the hair cells by the taxidermy process when he was stuffed and mounted at the museum".[24][25]
> 
> Kempson and Henry discovered that in the 30 to 40 hours before Phar Lap’s death, the horse ingested a massive dose of arsenic. "We can't speculate where the arsenic came from, but it was easily accessible at the time," Henry said


So sad...


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## horseluver2435

That's awful. Arsenic poisoning = not a fun way to die. 

Is it assumed that it was an intentional poisoning because he was a great racehorse, or do people suspect an insurance fraud thing? (Sorry if I sound stupid, I literally know next to nothing about racehorses, famous or otherwise.)


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## Cinnys Whinny

I don't think they know that. As far as I know they suspect many different things from accidental poisoning to Mexican mafia killing him in fear that they would take losses in the illegal gambling ring. I don't think anyone will ever know.


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## LuvsArabella

Well I think that actually if you could have thrown in Northern Dancer into the mix, then he would have won. He still stands as the undefeated triple crown winner!! At least I think so. IF I am wrong please correct me.
On another note my OTTB has him in her bloodlines and also Seattle Slew, who is a brother to Secretariat!!


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## horseluver2435

That's another thing I really dislike about horse racing- all the bad things that happen around it. :/

Really, Northern Dancer? I can't say I've heard of him, I'd love to hear others opinions on him.

That's cool that you can trace the bloodlines back- a TB at my boarding barn is distantly related to Man O' War and Seattle Slew, but both sired many foals, so... haha, I guess it's still cool to know though! I wish I knew if my mare was related to anyone cool.


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## Spyder

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I'm very eager to see it.
> 
> I have been a diehard Man O' War fan all my life. I think it really boils down to a Man O' War VS Secretariat when you're talking world's most famous/well known racehorses. It reminds me of Team Edward and Team Jacob, LOL.
> 
> I've read Walter Farley's version of Man O' War, and I think that's a huge factor. I'm extremely interested to see if Secretariat's story moves me to sway my opinion at all.
> 
> I also hold Man O' War in high regard because he was a good SIRE. Seabiscuit and Secretariat were freak flukes - Man O' War was the real deal. I measure the greatness of a horse not by what he is, but what he has done. Man O' Wars influence on the Thoroughbred breed is almost tangible - he was a magnificent racehorse, but he was a legendary sire.
> 
> Maybe they'll make a Man O' War movie next.



The problem with comparing horses is they came from different times and ran on surfaces that have gotten better and better through the years. 

Seabuscuit never ran the triple crown because of circumstances that occurred when most horse were preparing their horses for that race Seabuscuit was considered too lazy and the people that brought him around came too late. They all ran on dirt tracks that were nowhere near as good as they are now.

What lowers him in my opinion is that he couldn't pass any of his greatness on to the next or following generations.

Secretariat was a great horse but again he ran on better track than Man O'War did so by comparison I would give the edge to Man O'War. 

As far as breeding again maybe Man O'War as he was able to pass his greatness DIRECTLY to the first generation but remember that not all horses pass their stuff to the first generation and Secretariate did his best genetic passing through his grandsons and grand daughters through mostly his FEMALE offspring. 

Phar Lap really was a freak of nature. Great race horse but was a gelding so we would never know what he might have produced and his untimely death killed any chance of knowing what he would have done racing wise in North America.

Ruffian...I saw the actual race as it unfolded...so very very sad.



horseluver2435 said:


> Really, Northern Dancer? *I can't say I've heard of him, *I'd love to hear others opinions on him.



Then you need to read about TB more.

Northern dancer has been without a doubt the most prolific breeding sire in the last half century. Virtually EVERY TB out there carries his bloodline. In the breeders stake over the last few years 90 % of all contestants carried his blood ( remember in one race they confirmed that EVERY horse had his blood within the last 2 generations). It is in France, England, Japan and Middle East. His sons are spread over the world and they themselves are multiple stakes winners and have produced multiple stakes winners. His sons or grand sons/daughters won every top prestigious race in the world.

Won 2 of the three American triple crown and who knows ..may have won the Preakness as the jockey was told NEVER to hit the horse but the jockey did hit him. He also developed a quarter crack just before the Preakness. Not 3 weeks later he won the Queen's Plate.

To me Northern Dancer in ALL aspects comes out on top.


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## Tennessee

I'm very partial to Man O' War. For the most part, you can thank his racing genes for all of these big name racehorses.


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## horseluver2435

I apologize, Spyder- but I did mention I know nothing about TB/horseracing- sounds like I'm going to have to read up on him. Sounds like a pretty amazing horse.

Hmm... sounds like there's a poll in the making here.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Great post Spyder! I couldn't agree more - Northern Dancer probably tops them all. I think he's not as well known because although he was a great racehorse he didn't have one of those great "stories" that made horses like Man O' War or Secretariat so famous. He left a more quiet legacy, although he WAS the first horse ever inducted into the Canadian Sports Hall Of Fame (Big Ben was recently the second). 

I am definitely more impressed though by any horse that can pass his or her greatness on as opposed to simply being a fluke. The stories are great for morale, and fantastic to hear, I just prefer the legacy that lives on for generations.

Someone commented on Phar Lap, and as far as the stories go, everyone believes he was poisoned because he was "too good". People were frustrated with him being such a sure thing, and as no insurance was really involved, it's considered pretty much fact that he was killed just for being too **** fast. It was REALLY common back then, more then a few racehorses met their ultimate demise by jealous competitors tired of losing.


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## horseluver2435

MM: That's even worse. How awful...
I actually just realized I recognize Northern Dancer from my great big book of Kentucky Derby winners. But that's all I know of him. Sounds pretty amazing though.


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## farmpony84

I don't think I could watch a movie about Ruffian. It would surely leave me a sniffling crying baby. I never watched the Pharlap movies for that reason. 

My horse has Man O' War in his bloodlines. It's 8 generations back but I still think it's pretty cool.

If they do make a Man O' War movie, I kind of hope they go with the Walter Farley version. I loved that book.


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## horseluver2435

Oh, farmpony, I cry so much when I watch Ruffian, it's obnoxious. It leaves my family absolutely baffled. But it's a very good movie all the same.


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