# Seedy Toe (hooves)



## califcowgirl (Oct 13, 2008)

Does anyone know anything about Seedy Toe in horse hooves?


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## Frog (May 24, 2007)

What did you want to know??


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hoof Care

this site has a little information on it. Does your horse have it?


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

I believe seedy toe is simply fungus that grows in the stretched "white line" area due to the flaring that occurs when toes are not trimmed properly. Treat with ACV soaks and keep the outer wall out of ground contact by backing up the toe from the top by beveling the wall. This will allow the hoof wall that grows from the top to remain attached rather than being pulled away with each step. The best way to keep fungus out of the "whiteline" is to keep the line tight.. Remove flares.


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

Some people think a simple stretched white line as seedy toe, but it is actually a hollow pocket created by a fungus that's entered a weak white line. Horses with shoes may be more prone to it, due to several factors from the general nature of wearing shoes. Nails introduce an easy path, the toe will usually have more stress on it than a beveled trim, and the shoe holds more dirt/mud/manure/moisture that breeds fungus and bacteria, plus the shoe itself is tight up against the foot, and doesn't allow much air in that area to dry it. Also, shoes slow blood flow, no matter how good the farrier, and the germs take advantage more easily.

Once it starts, it can become bad enough to nescessitate a "re-section" where a large portion is removed to allow meds complete access. Most of the time, you can avoid that by removing the shoes, soaking with the appropriate meds and a good trim. ACV is good, but may not always take care of it, and your farrier or vet can recommend what is right in your situation. If it persists, or comes back, something in your horse's daily routine needs a change, either change in trims or a cleaner environment. Sometimes, it can be a side-effect of chronic founder, the laminae seem to be forever weaker and diet plays a major factor. Cutting back on sugars/starches helps with those horses, as the fungus seems to be opportunistic, and horses that have diabetic-like issues will be more prone to foot problems (like founder, seedy toe, thrush, and canker). Takes experience to know what exactly you are dealing with. Even with a great barefoot trim, if it isn't frequent enough, the white line will beging to stretch, allowing for the infection, so be sure to stay on a regular trim cycle, even if the hooves "look okay" as barefoot hooves tend to look good longer, but they still need to be done in the usual 6-8 weeks cycle.


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## califcowgirl (Oct 13, 2008)

thanx for all the help...i will give theses suggestions a try!


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

barefoothooves said:


> Some people think a simple stretched white line as seedy toe, but it is actually a hollow pocket created by a fungus that's entered a weak white line. Horses with shoes may be more prone to it, due to several factors from the general nature of wearing shoes. Nails introduce an easy path, the toe will usually have more stress on it than a beveled trim, and the shoe holds more dirt/mud/manure/moisture that breeds fungus and bacteria, plus the shoe itself is tight up against the foot, and doesn't allow much air in that area to dry it. Also, shoes slow blood flow, no matter how good the farrier, and the germs take advantage more easily.
> 
> Once it starts, it can become bad enough to nescessitate a "re-section" where a large portion is removed to allow meds complete access. Most of the time, you can avoid that by removing the shoes, soaking with the appropriate meds and a good trim. ACV is good, but may not always take care of it, and your farrier or vet can recommend what is right in your situation. If it persists, or comes back, something in your horse's daily routine needs a change, either change in trims or a cleaner environment. Sometimes, it can be a side-effect of chronic founder, the laminae seem to be forever weaker and diet plays a major factor. Cutting back on sugars/starches helps with those horses, as the fungus seems to be opportunistic, and horses that have diabetic-like issues will be more prone to foot problems (like founder, seedy toe, thrush, and canker). Takes experience to know what exactly you are dealing with. Even with a great barefoot trim, if it isn't frequent enough, the white line will beging to stretch, allowing for the infection, so be sure to stay on a regular trim cycle, even if the hooves "look okay" as barefoot hooves tend to look good longer, but they still need to be done in the usual 6-8 weeks cycle.


 
From doing lots of non bias research these seem to be the two biggest cause I have found... shoes have NOTHING to do with Seedy toe and the research I did showed it in barefoot hooves MORE then shod hooves!! LOL


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

Peggysue said:


> From doing lots of non bias research these seem to be the two biggest cause I have found... shoes have NOTHING to do with Seedy toe and the research I did showed it in barefoot hooves MORE then shod hooves!! LOL


 
I would sure like to know your sources. And were the barefoot horses just out of shoes? Were the barefoot horses just without shoes and in a pasture trim? Or were they given the barefoot trim that is supposed to mimic natural wear and tear? The trim and freqeuncy has a big influence and in my own experience, I see more of it in horses I'm pulling the shoes off of, than even ones that just had pasture trims. There's more problems, period. History of founder is probaby the leading factor, but many shod horses have severely stretched white lines yet never had an acute bout of laminitis, and were becoming infected, and on the road to seedy toe.:-|
I'm not claimimg barefoot trims to be a magical fix. Some horses have crummy feet, regardless of competant trimming or shoeing. Thay just do better than with shoes relatively. Yes, any horse can get seedy toe or any other ailment. It's far less likely and chronic conditions can improve where shoes have failed, when the horse gets proper barefoot trims> I think, also, you are likely to see barefoot trimmers to display any ailments and how they fix it, and farriers tend to be less open about it. They may see the problem and work to fix it, yet never feel it necessary to mention it. Could be they don't think the owner needs those details, could be a bit of ego with some,:roll: to admit there's anything wrong, would be like saying they aren't competant, or they don't want to mess with explaining every detail when they have another client waiting. In the, what I call "farrier culture" it's generally that you tell the owner the big things and the minor things aren't told. After all, the farrier knows more than the owners it's their job. But us barefooters tend to point out every flaw and make a case study out of it, a bit of ego on our side, as well,:roll: to show off what we can fix. 
And don't forget, many more people attempt to trim without training than attempt to shoe which could scew the results un your research.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

if you have a farrier or trimmer NOT telling you about your horses problems they need FIRED!!!

I dont' use farrier or trimmer sites when I search I look for University studies pertaining to it ... I am NOT closed minded I see all sides 

I have one barefoot one in front shoes and one with full shoes


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

Peggysue said:


> if you have a farrier or trimmer NOT telling you about your horses problems they need FIRED!!!
> 
> I dont' use farrier or trimmer sites when I search I look for University studies pertaining to it ... I am NOT closed minded I see all sides
> 
> I have one barefoot one in front shoes and one with full shoes


 
Well, I dont' think many universities have really done a ton of research on it, compared to shoes, yet. Excellent sources of information, just the same. . If you've studied red delcious apples for 75 years, then do research on golden delicious for 5,and say that reds are definitly the best and golds have more worms, is it really a fair statement?

And yes, farriers/trimmers SHOULD tell the owners everything, but many don't. If you could be a fly on the wall when farriers get together casually, and you'd probably be suprised.


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

sorry, computer blipped on me before I finished the other post.

The professionals in many fields are like that-human doctors, plumbers, etc. They may see a lot of details that they don't feel is worth the time or trouble to tell you. Time is money. I dont' agree with that attitude, but it's there a lot of the time. That's why I advise people to ASK while the farrier/trimmer is there. Do you see any little things? Any infection or signs of trouble to come? What do you think of his/her hooves overall? What can I do to improve them? etc.


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## hotreddun (Jun 27, 2008)

barefoothooves said:


> They may see the problem and work to fix it, yet never feel it necessary to mention it. Could be they don't think the owner needs those details, could be a bit of ego with some,:roll: to admit there's anything wrong, would be like saying they aren't competant, or they don't want to mess with explaining every detail when they have another client waiting. In the, what I call "farrier culture" it's generally that you tell the owner the big things and the minor things aren't told.


Ive always wondered if this has to do with the high% of male farriers and high% of female horse owners:???: I know with my previous farrier (I loved the man but what he was doing was WRONG) he refused to admit that he didn't know the exact answer for my horse and refused to listen to little old female me about my suggestions.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

no the barefoot people want to blame all problems on the shoes or the shoes contribute to the problem the farrier sees both sides ask any GOOD farrier and he will tell you he can make MORE money on good balanced trims then shoeing because it takes much less time and EFFORT 

the barefoot people just blame the shoes ... I use a farrier and at one point I had TWO completely barefoot horses go from shoes to barefoot with no lame time at all.. no chip no cracks NOTHING... if your farrier/trimmer is not listening to you FIRE HIM or FIND OUT WHY he is not listening to you... actually most creditable studies are backed by univeristies  just have to DIG to find them ... 

not all horses can be barefoot and not all need shoes... and shoes properly applies will NOT casue Seedy toe...


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

I disagree about the shoes, even properly applied, they can contribute to seedy toe. I DO see a lot of issues that go away when the shoes are removed. I've seen crappy farrier work and some really good, but that being said, shoes are unnatural for hooves so no matter how well they are applied, they cause their own little side effects, which are magnified by poor skills on the farrier's part. 
If your farrier DOESN'T tell you about minor things that are covered up by the shoes, how will you ever know if he manages to keep it in check, for you to fire him? 
I think Peggy Sue and I will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this one. =)


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

The shoe will NOT cover up the problem if the owner take the time to educate themselves which all good owners should do


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Shucking Seedy Toe


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

I copy and pasted for those who do not have a member log in for the site 
The Horse: White Line Disease


> Look up “white line disease” in your equine veterinary book, and you might not find it. This name for the condition was first coined in 1990, and the disorder is also known as *seedy toe*, hoof or stall rot, hollow foot, yeast infection, Candida, wall thrush, and (incorrectly) onychomycosis. But when white line disease came to be recognized as a unique condition what it’s called is of no consequence if a serious case of the disease puts your horse out of commission. In its worst stages, white line disease can leave a horse with little hoof wall and can cause permanent loss of athletic ability.
> *Opportunistic Invasion*
> Simply stated, white line disease refers to hoof wall separation within the hoof’s non-pigmented layer. Explains Tracy A. Turner, DVM, Dipl. ACVS, professor of Large Animal Surgery at the University of Minnesota, “White line disease is characterized by progressive hoof wall separation that occurs in the non-pigmented horn at the junction between the stratum medium (middle layer of the hoof capsule) and laminar horn. The separation is usually progressive and typically involves most of the toe and quarters. The name is a misnomer, as the white line is not actually involved, but rather the deepest layer of the non-pigmented stratum medium.”
> The cause of white line disease is unknown, but it’s thought to be a multifactorial condition linked to an invasion into the area by infectious organisms such as bacteria and/or fungi. Stephen O’Grady, DVM, MRCVS, of Northern Virginia Equine in The Plains, Va., says these organisms might be secondary opportunists that invade the area after some sort of hoof wall trauma.
> ...


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

*THe rest of the article*

*



Therapy
Treatment consists of several steps geared toward providing support while the affected hoof area grows out. The entire undermined outer hoof wall is removed to expose the diseased area, and the affected areas of the horn are debrided until good horn attachment can be identified. 
“Thorough exploration and debridement of any remaining tracts should take place at 10-day intervals,” O’Grady says. “Some form of dye marker can be placed on the resected area to highlight the remaining tracts or fissures. When all tracts are removed, a thorough examination is indicated at re-shoeing intervals every four to five weeks. A wire brush is used daily to keep the resected area clean.”
The most important treatment is to correct or eliminate the primary cause that led to the disease. “If you have a long toe or a club foot, treat the condition,” O’Grady instructs. “If there’s an old abscess, clean up the area. If there is chronic laminitis, give the horse the best foot conformation you can by shoeing.”
Provide therapeutic shoeing to support the frog and weakened hoof wall. “If the defect is small, the hoof can be shod accordingly,” says O’Grady. “If the toe is involved, fit the shoe so breakover is moved back under the toe toward the apex of the frog. This will remove pressure on the resected area of the toe. If the resection is extensive and/or if rotation of the third phalanx is present, a heart bar or egg bar-heart bar combination shoe can be used to provide support to the heel area. 
“An alternative method would be to use a bar shoe or open shoe combined with some type of impression material, with or without a pad,” he continues. “The impression material can be applied to the entire solar surface of the foot as long as it is molded thicker at the heels to provide the necessary support.”
Turner notes that glue-on shoes of other alternatives should be used if nailing a shoe is too painful for the horse. “For major loss of hoof wall,” he says, “large clips can be welded to the shoe and short screws used to attach the clip to the remaining hoof wall. Alternatively, fiberglass casting tape can be used to create an artificial wall so that a shoe may be applied.”
Experts disagree on the effectiveness of topical medications. O’Grady says there was no difference in a group of 10 horses which he debrided and treated with topical medication versus a group of 10 which were just debrided. “The hooves in all of them grew out just fine,” he says. 
Turner observes that some experts report good results with topical medications such as povidone iodine solutions (undiluted or mixed with dimethyl sulfoxide), copper sulfate, Venice turpentine, and merthiolate. He notes, though, that phenol, formaldehyde, and strong tincture of iodine can damage sensitive tissues and lead to permanent hoof damage.
Both Turner and O’Grady warn against covering the resected area with acrylic. “Microorganisms can become trapped under the repair and continue to destroy the hoof wall,” O’Grady states. “There is no medication in the acrylic that is effective for fungi or many of the causative bacteria.” 
However, the need to get into the show arena might cause an owner to ignore that advice, in which case Turner recommends covering the hoof wall with an antibiotic hoof acrylic. “I caution the horse owner that covering it could make it worse,” he says. “To date, we have not seen this happen while utilizing the medicated Equilox under these conditions. The medication is an antimicrobial that is most effective against anaerobes (bacteria that proliferate in a non-oxygenated environment); I feel that it provides an environment that prohibits these microorganisms from proliferating.”
As the hoof grows out, the affected area will continue to need debridement and treatment. “Maintain a shoeing schedule of four-week intervals,” O’Grady recommends. 
During this recovery period, the feet should be kept as dry as possible. Avoid turn-out in rain-soaked and dewy pastures, and keep bedding clean and dry. “A well-balanced diet with the addition of biotin and methionine can also be helpful,” O’Grady adds. 
Exercise during recovery is permitted, depending upon the severity of the damage.
Prognosis and Prevention
In most cases, prognosis for recovery to full soundness is excellent, although it may take up to 10 months for the undermined area to grow out, depending on the amount of hoof wall removed. The only reason that a horse might have a poor prognosis is if rotation is involved. Also, O’Grady notes that white line disease can return in some horses, even those with strong hoof walls and no signs of separation. Therefore, horses which have had white line disease need careful monitoring for future episodes.
Try to minimize risks by avoiding large moisture changes to the feet and turn-out in wet pastures. Keep the toe short to avoid stressing the hoof wall-sole junction. Maintain a proper trimming and shoeing schedule in order to preserve hoof integrity and to catch small problems before they become big problems.

Click to expand...

*


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

All shoes do cause stress on the wall, and nail holes create a direct path for opportunistic organisms, mechanical stress is on the walls that can't expand and contract as needed, and yes, trap a nominal amount of moisture in the hoof next to the shoe. Shoes are more apt to lead to long toe/low heel syndrome ,or clubby feet. 

Shoeing every 4 weeks, while it might take care of excessive growth issues, creates more nail holes and weaker walls, esp. with more of the more invasive trims that farriers do in order to create a flat surface to match a shoe to.

Barefoot trimming is less invasive, does NOT create mechanical stress, and allows easier access to the problem area at all times, while allowing the foot the most breathability and circulation.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

One of the reason I do not get into these barefoot vs shoes arguments as there are hurt feeling and nothing is resolved because each side is so sure their side is right.

I really was hoping it would have been about seedy toe ( and a topic on this was recently on JUST seedy toe)....I should have known different. :roll:


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

Spyder said:


> One of the reason I do not get into these barefoot vs shoes arguments as there are hurt feeling and nothing is resolved because each side is so sure their side is right.
> 
> I really was hoping it would have been about seedy toe ( and a topic on this was recently on JUST seedy toe)....I should have known different. :roll:


 
I posted some good unbias information on Seedy Toe ... aka White Line Diesease and from my understanding if not caught earlier enough a resection is needed to get rid of it


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

Spyder said:


> One of the reason I do not get into these barefoot vs shoes arguments as there are hurt feeling and nothing is resolved because each side is so sure their side is right.
> 
> I really was hoping it would have been about seedy toe ( and a topic on this was recently on JUST seedy toe)....I should have known different. :roll:


 
I don't think there were any hurt feelings about this, and certainly shouldn't be. When a hoof question is asked, barefoot vs. shoes is a topic that is likely to come up, because most hoof things are seen/cared for by the professional hoof people, whether they are farriers or trimmers, and of course, we will add any observations twe may have made in the course of our work, and how we've fixed it, etc.
Yes, you only asked "what is it?" but to answer that, it's very easy to want to explain the circumstances that influence the occurence, so that you could perhaps avoid it in your own horse, as logically, the next question would be "why" or "how does it occur". 
Nobody has been disrespectful and your question has been the more thorougly answered for it. Perhaps you should be very specific when asking a question and state you only want minimal information-"just the simple, basics, please" It is a public thread and everyone that wants to help will most likely always offer more information than you really ask for if you don't stop us in our tracks.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

barefoothooves said:


> Perhaps you should be very specific when asking a question and state you only want minimal information-"just the simple, basics, please"


*I am not the original poster* :???: but someone that didn't want to wade through arguments of shoes vs barefoot. As I said I am just about drowned with the barefoot people arguing one way and those going for shoes the other and done my own research regarding this topic. I can go to COTH and see trainwreck after trainwreck on this topic.

I had a horse that had chronic seedy toe and I did not go bare foot to resolve it. I had an excellent team working between my vet and farrier and we kept him as sound. 

AND HE WAS SHOD throughout.


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## barefoothooves (Sep 6, 2007)

Since you weren't the OP, could have just opted to NOT read the thread. =)


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

Wow...another thread gone awry! 

Barefoot and Peggy Sue thanks for the article and the discussion. It is always a very hard thing to discuss because people are so passionate. I, too, wanted to read about Seedy toe, but got a bonus! Some great information!

I think there is a place for barefoot and shod horses. Although I choose the barefoot route because of pretty much what Barefoot talked about, I do understand that some horses simply need a "fix". Just like us humans need things to fix our ailing bodies, misalignments, etc. We have domesticated an animal who out in the wild would never need shoes....JMO:wink:


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

ahearn said:


> . We have domesticated an animal who out in the wild would never need shoes....JMO:wink:


 
Actually the ones in teh wild that NEED shoes end up as critter food.. survival of the fittest and a horse with bad feet would not survive long enough to be studied...


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## ahearn (Jul 10, 2007)

And one of the MAIN reasons put shoes on their horses is so that the PEOPLE can ride their horses on rocky terrain, concrete, etc. In the wild this could be done NATURALLY! 

I AM NOT going to continue this with you. Like others have said, everyone is passionate about what they believe in. We could all argue about this for years....


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