# Leaving a horse tied for hours?



## RATHER BE RIDING

What is the point of leaving a horse in training tied for hours? I know that the theory is that it teaches them patience, but it seems cruel to me. I am trying to be open minded as some of the trainers that I am considering for my horse use this practice and I know that I have heard some of the big name trainers say that they will leave a horse tacked up and tied for hours. Interested in opinions pro and con.


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## Golden Horse

I have no problem with a horse being taught to tie for hours, it's very useful if you are a show without stalls to be able to tie your horse for most of the day.

I don't believe in tying for a punishment, or to let a horse 'think about' something it did wrong, not very productive, in my opinion.

I teach my guys to tie by starting for a short time, and gradually leaving longer and longer times. It's a lesson like any other.

If they are tied for a long time then I have them tied with a hay bag, and will offer water, it's not a punishment, so they shouldn't be deprived of anything.


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## Delfina

My trainer and I each have a 4yr old. She was in-between facilities, so she sent her 4yr old to a well-known local trainer to be started. As part of his "starting" he tied her horse up for most of a day (hay and water was given multiple times). I bought my horse from a trainer who didn't believe in tying a horse up for any more time than absolutely necessary.

My trainer has a 4yr old that sleeps in the cross ties. I have a 4yr old that dances around in the cross ties, like the barn floor is made of lava. :roll: I cannot get more than 6" away from him without him going utterly berserk. Literally, if I forget something in the tack room, I've got to haul him with me because he *will* hurt himself if I leave and the tack room is all of 10ft away.

As soon as we have a safe place to tie him, guess whose about to spend some serious time learning to stand still!! :?


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## BrewCrew

There's no harm in tying for hours as long as the situation is safe, obviously. As pointed out, there are many situations where having a horse that can tie for long periods of time is very useful. Shows, camping, events, even playdays.


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## Frankiee

I understand it will teach your horse patience and this is just my opinion but I dont believe you must make him stand for hours! Its a little over exaderation for me.


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## DubyaS6

I also don't think there is anything cruel about tying for hours. It's amazing for teaching a horse patience.

Agree with Golden Horse that this shouldn't be for a form of punishment and you should never leave a horse for a long period of time without water.

I would recommend tying in a place where someone can keep an eye on the horse, especially if the horse is not used to being tied alone.


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## musicalmarie1

Being able to be tied up for hours can be useful for many situations! As long as the horse is offered food and water, it's not cruelty.


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## DubyaS6

Frankiee said:


> I understand it will teach your horse patience and this is just my opinion but I dont believe you must make him stand for hours! Its a little over exaderation for me.


It's an over exaggeration until you NEED your horse to stand tied for a long period of time.

Picture being on a trail ride with a friend and something very traumatic happens and you are left immobile. Your friend must ride to get help and you are left there unable to move and function.

In order to hurry, your friend cannot take your horse with her (pony the horse).

Would you rather have a horse that will stand tied (maybe even ground tied) until help arrives, or one that wants to dance around on top of you when you are in physical pain?

I know this is a fictitious story, but it could happen (and probably has happened) to you or someone that may eventually own your horse. 

I have seen horses nap in the pasture in the same area for hours. I don't see how them having a halter on and tied to a tree (or something similar) could be perceived as cruel or mean.


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## Wallaby

Personally, I don't think it's exactly nice becuase horses were made to move and roam when needed, but I don't think it's necessarily cruel. 
If the horse has water and hay (and even if they don't, I think a couple of hours without hay/water isn't going to seriously hurt anything) and there is a purpose for being left tied (teaching patience because that's a skill the horse is lacking, not leaving them tied becuase they were "bad" or something) I think it has its place. 
I think it could be easily misused though so you probably want to be careful of that. I'd say that 3 hours is probably the longest a horse should have to stand tied. I mean, that seems like it's long enough to get the idea of patience across/get the horse comfortable with standing tied and I can't really imagine a reason to need to have a horse tied for longer than that... But that's just my opinion.


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## Katesrider011

If horses could be tied up for hours at a time back when cowboys got drunk in the bars I think they can handle it today. Just have water with it and it's not cruel. Once it's untied and back in its paddock everything will be fine and it will get over being tied up. I'd just keep an eye on it though, so it doesn't manage to do anything to hurt itself while being tied up. Being bored for a few hours isn't the end of the world


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## Tennessee

I think it's a great thing to do. A lot of people think I'm mean for teaching my horse to stand with hobbles, but then they wonder why I am able to leave him out in the middle of the barn isle untied and him not run or even walk away. 

My barrel horse, on the other hand, prances around like an idiot, so we've got work on that with her.


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## westernhorse

It's amazing how useful tying a horse for hours can be... example, I had a yearling hurt his leg in the field, noone but my 12 year old brother was home, he called me panicking because he didnt know what to do.. i told him to catch chevy, and Tie him in the barn so I could look at it when i got home (wasnt as serious as he thought), ... Chevy was the most paitent 3 year old I have ever seen... when told to stand he would, he would let young childern crawl all over him, and wouldnt budge, I could ride him to the lake and go for a swim, and not worry about him freaking out while being tied up and hurting himself... it also made breaking him quick and painless...


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## nrhareiner

All of mine learn from weanling to tie and by the time they are weaned will tie for as long as I need them too. Think about it. Even if you trail ride and camp the horse need to tie and tie for a long time. Show horses also at times will not be showing at places with stalls so they need to learn to tie and stay tied for a long period of time.

I have horses who will stand in their stall and sleep where they are tied up. Even when they are not.


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## westernhorse

it also helps keep them calm in a trailer


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## musicalmarie1

Katesrider011 said:


> If horses could be tied up for hours at a time back when cowboys got drunk in the bars I think they can handle it today.


I didn't think about that, either! Some horses today are, in my opinion, very spoiled. In pioneer days, horses weren't given paddocks or great fenced in pastures-- they were tied to a stake in the ground and that's the only area they had for the whole day (I just finished the Little House books again, and was reminded of that now). Sure, some horses should be allowed to run free, but they don't _have_ to be. No one cried out "abuse!" when a horse was tied for several hours, it was just natural. 

Hmm.. bit of a rant there.. sorry! My horses are spoiled rotten. I'll admit it. My mare will stand tied forever, but my yearling... well, he needs to learn some manners. He tried to roll next to the wire fence he was tied next to when the farrier came the other day.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

DubyaS6 said:


> It's an over exaggeration until you NEED your horse to stand tied for a long period of time.
> 
> Exactly! It is a good practice, given it is done in a safe manner. I knew an old cowboy type of trainer as a kid that would tie them for extended amounts of time, we are talking 8+ hrs on a post in the sun, no water...that I don't agree with because it wasn't done with any concern for the horses safety. Ours learn to tie as weanlings and they stay tied until they learn to stand still. Once they are calm and stand for a bit, lesson is over for the day. Some take 15 minutes others take hours. Our babies are taught tied on a rubber tire tube at a wall that is covered in rubber mats so they can't bang themselves up and should they fight, it's like a giant rubber band with some give but teaches pressure & release, a lesson learned early that makes for easy training later in life. I also ride 4 training horses back to back each day. I tack them all up at the same time and 3 stand tied waiting while I ride another. I rotate their at-bat order so that one isn't waiting the longest each day. You could tie any of mine, anywhere, with anything and they will be patiently waiting in the same spot when you return be it 10 minutes or 3 hours later.


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## justjump

Mine did with mine and it made him a lot better. It taught him to stand still and not be such an idiot when he's tied. That was three and a half years ago, and now he can stand without any crossties.


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## MacabreMikolaj

By that same train of thought, isn't it cruel to keep horses in standing stalls? Horses were designed to stand easily, and can spend HOURS napping on their feet.

All my horses learn to tie well, and it's a blessing at events where I don't want to pay for a stall and I certainly don't feel like building a makeshift paddock. My horses stand quietly tied to the trailer, with hay and water available, for hours at a time.

Horses spend MOST of their day standing with their heads in a feeder anyway, how is this much different? I think it's an invaluable tool!


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## maura

Standing while tied for extended periods of time not only teaches "patience", it's basic submission. 

Some trainers are good at teaching submission through other, more subtle or more complex ground work methods, but standing while tied is a good, very basic way of doing it. 

It's really the equivelent of teaching a dog a "long down" for basic submission at the beginning of obedience training - a horse that sleeps on the cross ties is the equivelent of a dog that naps on a long down. Not only have they learned basic submission, they're relaxed about it. 

I agree with the poster who asked "How long do you think you want your horse to stand quietly?" I want a horse that will stand quietly, tied to the trailer, with a hay net in front of him for 8 - 10 hours at a stretch, with an occassional water break.


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## jdw

Okay; I think this is all wonderful and though I have taught other horses in the past to do this, it has been way long ago and I remember some not-so-good incidents that happened at the time. 

I now have an 18 year old that does not stand well; it really irks him and he will try and untie. break halters, etc. to get loose. (he even broke a small tree)

Teach me to teach him, please.........


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## shmurmer4

Tree/Pole of knowledge


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## gypsygirl

my horses were tied for 8-10hrs a day where i got them from. its awesome, because you can leave them anywhere and they immediately fall asleep. they are so trustworthy.

obviously if they are tied for a long time they get water, its really no different then standing in a stall after they run out of hay all night.


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## smrobs

I am another that expects my horses to stand tied as long as I need them to. That can range anywhere from 10 minutes to 10 hours. What I like to do with young horses is give them a good ride, put their halter back on, and depending on how the session went and whether I decide they need another one later, I will either untack, wash them off, and tie them up or leave them tacked up and tie them up while I work with others. I consider it an action worthy of pride when I can jump off a horse in the middle of working cattle, loop a bridle rein over the fence, and come back 3 hours later to him still standing there even when he could have easily just walked away from the fence. I like a horse that sees the tie or feels the tie, and the first thing they do is cock a hind leg and go to sleep.

Just a few months ago, my brother was riding with me when he came off a bronc and broke 3 ribs. Didn't have time to untack and put up the horses so his horse stayed in the roundpen and the filly that I was riding got a halter put on and was tied up to the trailer. Come back home from the ER like 5 hours later and guess where the filly was. Still tied to the trailer with the saddle on and her eyes closed.

Maybe it's the way I grew up or something, I don't know, but I just cannot fathom why a person would be completely accepting of a horse that will break loose when tied:?.


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## TheLovedOne

I don't think it's necessary to leave a horse tied up to teach them to tie. However, I think it's necessary to teach a horse to tie in order to leave them tied up. 

Teaching is the key here and that is where I usually differ with the "training" barns that drag them over to the wall where they get tied and are left. I have never done that and yet all my horses tie for as long as I need. In fact, the show Arab that I got years ago could not be tied because he went kookoo every time but then I taught him and now it is no problem at all. In fact, motorcycles went past us a couple years ago when he was tied to the trailer and when I came back from the other side he was patiently waiting for me. 

Someone said please teach me.. I can't think of a good DVD but basically what you do is get a 22' line and loop it around a fence rail. The horse is attached to one end and it gets looped around a fence rail or better still a hitching rail. Now you are going to slap a stick/string/whip onto the ground around the horse and he is probably going to pull back. This when you get a chance to teach him to yield to the pressure on his poll. The idea here is not to make the rail hold the horse it is to teach the horse to yield to the pressure so that when they feel it the just have to yield and that is where they find the sweet spot. viola. Horses that don't tie have not been taught to lead.


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## TheLovedOne

Oh yes ... do I think it is cruel.. I think it is more cruel to tie a horse that has not been taught to tie. I think there is no value in tying them up for hours.


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## Northern

Horses, unfortunately, need to learn to tie because of human society. Wild horses naturally travel 20-30 miles a day, so standing tied for very long isn't natural to them, & doesn't keep their circulation going.

Agreed with TLO that you must teach the horse to yield to poll pressure in an approach-retreat fashion, rather than hog-tie him to something solid & "see if he injures himself", & even worse, gets his spirit broken/loses trust in the human.

Horses who go to sleep when tied ARE bored/frustrated & so they "check out" by sleeping. Just because they're living beings, we want to bore them as little as possible.


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## A knack for horses

The only time I think tying a horse in training would be cruel is if the person tied it in the sun or in a muddy area. 

Tying doesn't hurt the horse, and it does teach them to be patient. Horses don't really have a need to lay down like we need to sit, so standing isn't really a problem for them. 

I also think its practical to teach a horse to tie for long periods because there more than likely will be an instance in a horses life where it will have to be tied for more than 30 minutes in one setting.

If you are looking to show, there (usually) aren't pastures or corrals to turn your horse out while you are waiting for your class/turn. When there are corrals, you usually have to pay big $$ to get them. No corral or pasture means one of two things: Your horse is either tied or in a stall. 
I don't know about you, but I would be embarrased if I was the one whose horse was going bezerk because he isn't used to being stuck in one spot for 2 or 3 hours. 

Another place this skill is essential is trail riding. God forbid something happen to you, your horse, or another person or horse, but when an emergency strikes, it usually does so when you least expect it. 
I was on a trail ride this summer, and a guy's (he was fairly new to riding) horse bolted and he fell off, breaking his collarbone. We were miles from the nearest road. His wife took the guys horse and tied him to a tree, while his daughter rode back to their truck, drove all the way back (it took twice as long for her to get back). It took 2 hours for their daughter to arrive with the truck. All this time the guy and his wife's horses were tied. Neither of them caused a problem. Had they not been taought to tie for long periods, that would have been a mini nightmare.


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## jdw

I am the one that said teach me to teach him. One of you responed by saying a 22' line over a fence rail and make them pull back. I also said he sets her down~breaks the freaking brand new leather halter. He can really PULL. He broke a tree for crying out loud. Yes, we are working on leading correctly as well. He lags behind when we lead. We all inherit or sometimes buy horses that aren't the ideal already made into what I want horses. He is 18 years old. Do you have any avice on teaching him to tie, and if so how? I know it doesnt seem hard. I have just never owned a knucklehead like this before! Does anybody have any idea besides taking a 2x4 to his head???


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## Cherie

I, too, find tying for long periods of time to be productive and necessary. I start out doing this with young horses going into training. I would not even bother to start saddling and handling as long as the youngster is 'reactive' and not 'settled'. They are only going to resist everything I do and will learn little until they are settled and accept being tied out by themselves. Accepting this goes hand in hand with being able to focus on me and learn what I am trying to teach them. Training goes exponentially faster and better when they are settled and accepting. Tying until they are relaxed and quiet accomplishes that.

Tying out away from other horses is how I handle ALL herd-bound horses. I have had it take several days of being tied out after morning feeding until evening feeding. By the third day, even the most frantic, herd-bound horse is ready to 'give it up'. In addition to learning that they must stand there -- no matter how much they want to be with their friend(s), they learn that there IS life after being tied and they learn that they WILL see their herd mates again. After that, all of their training goes much better.

There are several safe ways to tie out a horse, but my favorite is to use a heavy nylon rope WITH a good swivel snap. I tie it to an over-hanging tree limb and tie the horse to it with a good nylon web halter. I want the snap to hang to about wither height. You MUST have a good swivel snap as all horses will go around and around at first and they will twist their rope up. The swivel snap keeps the from getting in trouble. The rope hanging down from the tree limb keeps them from pawing a fence or other structure. Mad and reactive horses WILL self-destruct if given the chance, so I just don't give them the chance. The other 'plus' to tying from a big tree limb is that there is shade and air always circulates better out in a place like that.


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## lacyloo

Aww nozzz! dey lefted dem poniez tied up fo two owersss. Save dem !!!
Dem cruelz peeps need too b beat !!!!! 

Okay I'll stop... My horses are expected to be tied for however long I need them to be. Not just for grooming and tacking up as most people do. As others have said, great training tool IMHO .


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## Chele11

DubyaS6 said:


> It's an over exaggeration until you NEED your horse to stand tied for a long period of time.
> 
> Picture being on a trail ride with a friend and something very traumatic happens and you are left immobile. Your friend must ride to get help and you are left there unable to move and function.
> 
> In order to hurry, your friend cannot take your horse with her (pony the horse).
> 
> Would you rather have a horse that will stand tied (maybe even ground tied) until help arrives, or one that wants to dance around on top of you when you are in physical pain?
> 
> I know this is a fictitious story, but it could happen (and probably has happened) to you or someone that may eventually own your horse.
> 
> I have seen horses nap in the pasture in the same area for hours. I don't see how them having a halter on and tied to a tree (or something similar) could be perceived as cruel or mean.


Well said. And it did happen to me - not on a trail and not without close assistance but it happened. Recently. And my beautiful girl walked 10' away and just stood there. I was so proud of her, even through the pain!


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## Northern

*First, Don't Call Your Horse a Knucklehead.*

JDW: The horse is not a knucklehead: he simply hasn't learned to yield to pressure, in the case of leading & tying, to poll pressure.

By breaking an expensive leather halter, horse showed you that you had the wrong halter on him. You need a rope knotted halter to start teaching him to yield to poll pressure in leading & tying.

First, start by pushing down, causing a bit of discomfort, with a finger on either side of his crest, behind his poll. When he yields his head down the slightest bit, jump those fingers off of him to show him that when he yields, his reward is removal of pressure. Get it to the point that he'll lower his head to the ground at a slight pressure.

Then, with your knotted halter, use the same pressure & release for leading, then for tying, the same, except have a long rope just looped once around a stout hitching rail, & when he goes to "rare" back, let it out, feel with him, but with a BIT of pull. This shows him that you're feeling with him in his fear, & that you're not TRAPPING him, but you're also asking him to think about not reacting so much. Stand opposite the rail from him, rather than behind him. This way, he'll gradually learn that it's ok to be tied, without further drama/accidents.


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## nworkman82

Yes. It is a good thing for a horse to learn. I do it everyday for about an hour just so she's use to it. I hope to camp and trail ride with my horse this summer and want her comfortable with being on a picket line. I started out tieing her with a hay bag close and weaned her off of it. While she's tied up I'm close usually doing chores and such. Now she'll stand quietly and doze in the sunshine content to grab a few winks before she has to "work." If you ever plan to show or take your horse off the property this is a valuable training. Not to mention having a horse that will tie quietly while you are grooming, trimming, and tacking up is priceless.


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## candandy49

jdw said:


> Okay; I think this is all wonderful and though I have taught other horses in the past to do this, it has been way long ago and I remember some not-so-good incidents that happened at the time.
> 
> I now have an 18 year old that does not stand well; it really irks him and he will try and untie. break halters, etc. to get loose. (he even broke a small tree)
> 
> Teach me to teach him, please.........


Firstly, I am not anyone, but a person who has worked and studied horsemanship and management for many years. I do take credit in having been told by an accredited trainer that I was an assest to his barn and got put on his payroll as an associate to his business. I have several issues to address here, but your's takes priority in my "mind's eye". 

Secondly, I never worked with a horse in a training situation, a camping trip with our horses without a very sharp, specially made rope cutting knife. Never can know when it might have come in handy for emergencies. Thankfully I never needed it. 

idw - This is an exact rendition of what I did to train my QH mare to stop pulling back, breaking lead rope bull snaps and stand tied quietly when ever necessary, which was very often. What you need to do with your 18 y/o is get a 1/4 inch nylon rope-tied halter with braided in lead and about a separate 15 foot of 3/4 diameter nylon braided rope. Take the 15 foot of nylon rope and make a very strong, very non-slip knot with a loop big enough to go over your horse's head and hang about a foot or so below the jowl groove. Then with the knotted halter with lead attached run the loose end of the 'neck rope" back down the jowl space between it and the halter. The next step, and make *this indelible in your mind's eye*, do not tie in any fashion a hard and fast tie knot of either the lead rope or the neck rope. Tie the halter lead rope then tie the tail of the neck rope about a foot or so longer. When you horse sets back the rope halter will stop him for certain, but the neck rope will be there for insurance.


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## Jessabel

That's how my draft horse was trained.

I believe every horse should be able to stand still and behave for as long as you ask them to. It's almost a necessity. I don't have any problem with tying them for hours, although I'd make sure they have water, especially on hot days.


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## DubyaS6

We had a "thinking" tree for horses that wanted to pull back. This tree was about 3 feet wide in diameter. No horse would budge this tree by pulling back. We also had a extremely thick chain wrapped around the tree a little higher than the horse's head. It's imperative that the horse cannot break or pull down whatever they are tied to when they pull back or this will just reinforce the behavior.

We had a horse that pulled over the hot walker because he would pull back so hard. Took him to the tree and tied him with a rope halter. He did pull back very hard and had a major fit, but it only took one fit for him to realize that it wasn't happening.

I do definitely agree that you need to have a knife handy to cut the rope if needed. Horses can definitely injure their selves and even die in severe cases. Most horses have to learn on their own to a certain extent. I definitely agree with teaching them the poll pressure give and release. This is invaluable and will help when they throw their "fit" at the tree.


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## Alwaysbehind

maura said:


> Standing while tied for extended periods of time not only teaches "patience", it's basic submission.
> 
> Some trainers are good at teaching submission through other, more subtle or more complex ground work methods, but standing while tied is a good, very basic way of doing it.
> 
> It's really the equivelent of teaching a dog a "long down" for basic submission at the beginning of obedience training - a horse that sleeps on the cross ties is the equivelent of a dog that naps on a long down. Not only have they learned basic submission, they're relaxed about it.
> 
> I agree with the poster who asked "How long do you think you want your horse to stand quietly?" I want a horse that will stand quietly, tied to the trailer, with a hay net in front of him for 8 - 10 hours at a stretch, with an occassional water break.


What she said!


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## farmpony84

It's a very humbling experience. It helps with ground manners and many other issues... I don't have an issue with it.


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## maura

I do agree with the concept of teaching to give to poll pressure; I had never really thought about it that way. Teaching to lead correctly while respecting the handler's space is one of my first steps in starting a horse, right after accepting handling on any part of their body. I guess I have always taught the yielding to poll pressure and just thought of it as halter breaking, rather than the specific skill of yielding to poll pressure. I can certainly see how trying to teach standing while tied to a horse that doesn't know how to yield to pressure on a lead rope could lead to disaster.

See? That's what I like about discussions like this and this board in general. Makes me think about things that I've just taken for granted.


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## Northern

OMG, I'm sorry I forgot to add: DON,T EVER TIE A HORSE SOLID WITH A KNOTTED ROPE HALTER & LEAVE HIM! Plus, USE A QUICK-RELEASE KNOT always, with a knotted rope halter! 

The rope halter won't break should the horse start to fight it, for whatever reason, increasing the odds greatly that he could seriously hurt himself!


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## farmpony84

Northern said:


> OMG, I'm sorry I forgot to add: DON,T EVER TIE A HORSE SOLID WITH A KNOTTED ROPE HALTER & LEAVE HIM! Plus, USE A QUICK-RELEASE KNOT always, with a knotted rope halter!
> 
> The rope halter won't break should the horse start to fight it, for whatever reason, increasing the odds greatly that he could seriously hurt himself!


I'm not sure you should ever actually "leave" a horse tied. You should always be in ear shot (my opinion). Also, it's good practice to always have a pocket knife handy because sometimes quick releases don't release when the horse has really had a fit or if it's a certain type of rope. (of course, I always forget to carry a pocket knife... bad).


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## smrobs

^^Agreed. A pocket knife is always a must and it always helps to keep it sharp. Quick release knots aren't always to quick to release when they have 1000 pounds of horse hanging on them LOL.


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## ShutUpJoe

What is your opinion on standing stalls?


















I LOVE a horse that knows how to tie. The reason we are taking the horse my Aunt just bought, last week, back is that she did not know how to tie. Not knowing that (because the horse is older) we tied her up in the barn and the horse wigged out enough to break the ring off the wall. Which in turn frightened my Aunt enough to not trust the horse. She stands tied now, thanks to me, but she is definitely not as the guy described her.


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## smrobs

I am not a big fan of standing stalls, but it has nothing to do with the horse being tied. I am not a fan of regular stalls either. IMHO, a horse should have room to move around and lay down and stretch out if they want to. But, that's beside the point and off topic LOL.

I think that each horse should be _able_ to be housed in a standing stall if their circumstances demand it.


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## Northern

By saying not to tie with a knotted halter & leave horse, I didn't say that leaving a horse tied is ok.

I've never thought that it was ok to leave a horse tied, regardless of the halter type. I had to leave one barn because I came upon two horses, two separate incidents, all alone & tied, & freaking, & I spoke to owner about it & he didn't like that.

I meant ESPECIALLY, with a knotted halter on, don't leave the horse tied.


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## Silvera

Everyone has made great points regarding showing, trail riding, emergencies, etc. I have another point to add that probably most people haven't looked at. I used to work at a big training barn, we would ride 3-4 horses each (the main trainer and myself) in a day. To get the horses ridden, worked properly, and cooled out we had to do a few things. We would tack all the horses up before starting riding so we would have to tie the horses that where waiting to be worked so they didn't roll or wreck the saddles. After riding we would have to walk them until they stopped breathing hard but they would still be really hot. We would tie the horses in their stall (after being untacked) so they couldn't drink and potentially colic.

This may seem "cruel" to someone who doesn't understand their digestion, seeing a hot steamy horse standing in the stall without being able to drink...but that's exactly what they need at that point.

Anyway, just thought I would put that little training point of view out there.


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## MacabreMikolaj

This is why I love a horse that knows how to tie - she has headgear still on, and I jumped off and said whoa, so she must be tied to something and tied she will stay until I ask her to move! I am across the yard in this photo, stopping to take pics of my friends - Zierra stood by the trailer and never moved an inch!










For whoever said they're "bored", I find that utter and total hogwash. I've watched them stand and nap for hours at a time in the pasture, it's all they do in the summer. By your logic then, every last domesticated thing we do with them is cruel. Comparing them to "wild horses" in this sense is as silly as people who compare hooves to wild horses and why they don't need farriers. Domesticated horses roam their pastures, but that doesn't stop them from spending extended periods of time dozing together under the shade.


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## Makoda

Yeah I don't agree that the horses hate being tied. Mine seem to like it. When I work them I tack them both up and work one for a bit and then the other. So when they are not being worked they get tied up. They like the break. Also I pack in a lot so its a must for that.


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## Kayty

Well if leaving horses tied for hours is cruel, I'm a pretty abusive owner!
Where I compete, we rarely have stables available to leave the horse's in for the day, so they're all tied to the side of the float. Often I'll get a ****** of a draw, my first test will be at 8am and second not until mid to late afternoon. I can tell you, I a NOT going to be walking my horse around all day so that it can 'roam around'. It can learn to stand tied all day, with hay and water constantly available. I can't imagine how frustrating it is for people who's horses fret and carry on when left tied. What a pain! Mine have always settled, as soon as they are tied at a show, they know they're not going anywhere, and usually just go to sleep, or watch the happenings of the show, watch other horses go by etc. Certainly not stressed by any means! 

IMO every horse should be taught to tie for long periods of time. As long as you're not strapping their head between their front legs and leaving them without water, they're perfectly happy! My guys stands under a tree and dozes for most of the day, as another poster said, whats the difference between that and having a halter/lead on? 
Hell, humans are designed to roam around 'hunting and gathering' and our kids are meant to be active and running around, but we 'train' them to sit in a class room for hours, and many of us spend 8-9 hours a day sitting in an office in front of a computer for work!


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## candandy49

Silvera said:


> Everyone has made great points regarding showing, trail riding, emergencies, etc. I have another point to add that probably most people haven't looked at. I used to work at a big training barn, we would ride 3-4 horses each (the main trainer and myself) in a day. To get the horses ridden, worked properly, and cooled out we had to do a few things. We would tack all the horses up before starting riding so we would have to tie the horses that where waiting to be worked so they didn't roll or wreck the saddles. After riding we would have to walk them until they stopped breathing hard but they would still be really hot. We would tie the horses in their stall (after being untacked) so they couldn't drink and potentially colic.
> 
> This may seem "cruel" to someone who doesn't understand their digestion, seeing a hot steamy horse standing in the stall without being able to drink...but that's exactly what they need at that point.
> 
> Anyway, just thought I would put that little training point of view out there.


Exactally. Another very good example of training to stand tied.


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## horsecrazy84

Leaving a horse tied for a while isn't mean and it is a great way to teach them patience as long as the horse is tied correctly. 
I agree with whoever said on pg 4 not to tie with something that won't break. Also, don't tie with the rope so long the horse can get a leg over and then freak out. I usually have hay string tied in a loop down at the barn on the posts because that's where I normally tie mine for grooming, saddling,etc. I like using the twine because if they do happen to panic the twine will break, but it takes a good pull to break it. I teach them to tie to anything and even ground tie. I start out groundtying by placing a cinder block or something else heavy on the rope. They start to walk away and feel the pressure so they stop. I don't groundtie until they respect being tied to a post, tree, trailer,whatever.
I expect the horse to get to the point where if the rope is even tossed over a post or rail they'll stay "tied" and not move. If they are being groundtied and they start to move I put them right back where they were. If they are tied and getting antsy, they stay tied until they stand still and relaxed.
When tying a problem horse who wants to pull back and break something make sure he's tied to something he can't pull down. Because then when he throws a fit, breaks the post and gets free, it is encouraging him to keep breaking stuff. He has to realize that he's tied and he can't get loose. Sundance has backed up to the end of his rope before while tied and he'll end up with his neck stretched out, bracing against the rope, but after a minute he'll calmly walk forward and release the pressure. I'm sure if that post ever broke he'd think he could do that again.
Chanti is great about being tied and she'll stand for as long as I need her to. As soon as she's tied she cocks a leg and starts to go to sleep lol.
I have left a young horse tied with a saddle on before, and will do it especially after a ride or training session. I think it helps them keep from getting barn sour. Instead of finishing and taking off the tack at the barn and turning them loose I'll leave them tied for a little while so they don't associate the barn with the end of work. I'll also saddle both horses and leave one tied while I work the other.
I think it helps a young horse when they watch another horse being worked.


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## Northern

MM, a horse doesn't get bored in domesticity? It's one of the *main *problems that horses have in domesticity!

I like to set it up so that the horse suffers boredom as little as possible. The horses that you see dozing in the pasture know that they're fenced in, & have less concern for predators in domesticity, as well, so these facts must be taken into account when deducing the "normalcy" of their dozing times.

We'd do well to tune into just how much we're boring our horses, & that includes the times when we're interacting with them. It's totally important that the horse enjoys being with the human.


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## nrhareiner

Northern said:


> JDW: The horse is not a knucklehead: he simply hasn't learned to yield to pressure, in the case of leading & tying, to poll pressure.
> 
> By breaking an expensive leather halter, horse showed you that you had the wrong halter on him. You need a rope knotted halter to start teaching him to yield to poll pressure in leading & tying.
> 
> First, start by pushing down, causing a bit of discomfort, with a finger on either side of his crest, behind his poll. When he yields his head down the slightest bit, jump those fingers off of him to show him that when he yields, his reward is removal of pressure. Get it to the point that he'll lower his head to the ground at a slight pressure.
> 
> Then, with your knotted halter, use the same pressure & release for leading, then for tying, the same, except have a long rope just looped once around a stout hitching rail, & when he goes to "rare" back, let it out, feel with him, but with a BIT of pull. This shows him that you're feeling with him in his fear, & that you're not TRAPPING him, but you're also asking him to think about not reacting so much. Stand opposite the rail from him, rather than behind him. This way, he'll gradually learn that it's ok to be tied, without further drama/accidents.


There are some horses who give great to pressure but still will not tie well. It has nothing to do with presser or lack there of or knowing how to give to pressure.


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## Northern

nrhareiner said:


> There are some horses who give great to pressure but still will not tie well. It has nothing to do with presser or lack there of or knowing how to give to pressure.


For such horses as may be that way, then it's some additional issue that causes them to go against their having learned to yield to poll pressure.


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## TheLovedOne

nrhareiner said:


> There are some horses who give great to pressure but still will not tie well. It has nothing to do with presser or lack there of or knowing how to give to pressure.


I have seen horses that seem to give to poll pressure and most people will think that the horse gives to poll pressure but s/he really isn't giving to the pressure at all. The reason for that is the horse may understand that s/he needs to follow the human or stand beside the human but has never really been taught to yield properly. A horse that yields properly will do so even in a moment of panic or confusion because they have learned where the sweet spot is. A horse that is taught to yield to pressure on the poll will learn to tie easily. If there is a horse that still will not tie then I agree with Northern because there is some other reason for it. Like my Arab who not only did not yield to pressure but also had to recover from the beatings he endured while he was in the show world.


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## Hunterjumper7654

I think it's great to teach your horse patience, if your at a show and have to leave then tied to your trailer they should be able to stand there with no problems, you should have to worry about them sitting down and breaking away or dancing around for hours because you have no where to put them, I also believe that if your horse has sat back and broken a lead and they cannot tie anymore that you should tie them in a safe way(so they can sit back and not break away or hurt themselves) and leave then there until they realize they cannot break away and and they need to come forward to the pressure not backwards. Then yes I think they should be tied until they understand that IMO.


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## Endiku

I think that teaching horses at young ages to stand tied is a very, very good thing. It can help so much. We start all of our minis early (weaninglings) with standing for ten to fifteen minutes at a time, tied with a flake of hay. Gradually over two years we lengthen this time and begin to leave the ground tied, and any one of them will stand for hours, ground tied, dozing with no problem. It is extremely helpful when there are emergencies, and it always helps to have a nice mannered horse to work with when floating/farrier/vetting.


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## rissaxbmth

I think to leave a horse tied for extended amounts of time can teach them patience, I know that my horse wasn't taught that! But when I go to a show, I can tie my horse to the trailer with a hay net/bag and don't have to worry about him going nuts! My friends horse reared up when it was tied and the horse hurt itself and my friend!

I think that you should gradually build up the time though. Another thing even though its off topic, I believe a horse even if it lives in a pasture should be taught to be stalled, just in case of an emergency.


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## RodeoLoco

I have no problem with leaving a horse tied. We have standing stalls in our barn, its generally the same idea. I have left my mare tied for 6 hours (with hay and water of course) while waiting for my number to be called in our local rodeo. And she did fine, she stood like it was nothing, as for training and discipline, I have to say I believe this too. Our older mare (not in age, as when I was younger) struck my father, so we put her in the barn for the summer. (our horses are out 24/7 in summer, no run in.) Without any outside time. It seemed to teach her that kicking was not acceptable. She never kicked again.


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## nworkman82

Looking for I put from my earlier comment. 

When I tie my horse (while doing chores and such) to train her to stand quietly I use her nylon halter and lead rope... With a quick release knot. A couple have mentioned using special knotted halters and the like. I'm a newbie and am not clear (exactly) what you are refer to. I may need further explination... I fear I may be inadvertantly doing my tieing incorrectly. Thanks.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Northern said:


> MM, a horse doesn't get bored in domesticity? It's one of the *main *problems that horses have in domesticity!
> 
> I like to set it up so that the horse suffers boredom as little as possible. The horses that you see dozing in the pasture know that they're fenced in, & have less concern for predators in domesticity, as well, so these facts must be taken into account when deducing the "normalcy" of their dozing times.
> 
> We'd do well to tune into just how much we're boring our horses, & that includes the times when we're interacting with them. It's totally important that the horse enjoys being with the human.


Kindly point out where I said horses don't get bored in domesticity? I said that the idea that horses sleep while tied is due to them being "bored" and "checking out" is utter and total hogwash. 

I am constantly focused on making things as unboring as possible for my horses. I assume it's some sort of "natural horsemanship" idea that actually convinces people that their horse is so terrified of being tied they just "check out"? The idea that my horse would respond to a "prey instinct" by falling asleep has got to be one of the most nonsensical things I've ever heard.


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## Northern

Since you say in your last post that horses do get bored in domesticity, does it not stand to reason that they can get bored standing tied for extended periods of time?

Utter hogwash? Why do you say this?

When a person, dog, horse, or other mammal gets bored, the tendency is to doze, is it not? Horses, when repeatedly frustrated, tend to "check out", "shut down", even when they're not tied. It's a mental/emotional escape from their boring/frustrating reality.

If you want to insist that horses cannot possibly get bored or frustrated by being tied for long periods of time (but can get bored at other times?), whatever.


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## Sarahandlola

I am gonna do this with Lola! She does stand tied pretty well but she does not like standing at all when loose etc..I will also tie her to a piece of string in a release knot so if she does panic or whatever the string will break.

A few weeks ago a horse was tied to a metal pole for a few minutes. She got afraid of something and started going crazy! The lead rope clip broke. If it hadn't he would have been seriously hurt..That is why I am always told to tie them to string!


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## HollyBubbles

When I got bubbles I was only learning to ride, and i was nervous because she would dance around when tied up and one day managed to rip out a fence, nearly giving me fence wire braces (bailing twine didn't break *HeadDesk) so after that I didn't tie her up and would put up with her dancing around me while I tacked her up. Then my neighbour took her for a while and left her tied up for hours one day, I got her back and ever since then she has not flinched while tied up.

So while I don't leave Mitchell tied up for hours on end, I do make the point to tie him up for EVERYTHING I do with him, even the little things like adjusting a strap on a cover, which I can very easily do in the paddock.


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## PaintHorseMares

Our mares are rarely tied for hours, but will do so without problem when needed. I view this just like having a horse stand still, load in a trailer, etc. It is not done as punishment, but as something that just needs to be done at times (I don't like going to the dentist, but I do). My approach with the young ones has always been... I need to do _________ (pick/trim feet, give a shot/wormer, clean a cut, put tack away, etc) and you need to behave, stand still and just let me do it without fussing. Patience and consistency is all you need, and it's great to have horses that you can just walk out to and do these things whether they are tied, saddled, or loose without having to bring them all in every time.


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## Cherie

I think that tying a horse with something that it can break only teaches it to set back and break everything it is tied with. 

Find a safe place to tie it with something it cannot break. I cannot stress how counter-productive it is to intentionally tie a horse with something you know it is going to break. It only teaches it to break equipment.


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## iridehorses

jdw said:


> I am the one that said teach me to teach him. One of you responed by saying a 22' line over a fence rail and make them pull back. I also said he sets her down~breaks the freaking brand new leather halter. He can really PULL. He broke a tree for crying out loud.


Use a rope halter and a stout tree.


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## AllThePrettyHorses

Cherie said:


> I think that tying a horse with something that it can break only teaches it to set back and break everything it is tied with.
> 
> Find a safe place to tie it with something it cannot break. I cannot stress how counter-productive it is to intentionally tie a horse with something you know it is going to break. It only teaches it to break equipment.


That's what I thought too...how can a horse learn to tie solid if it knows that every time it flips out, it will get free?

I recently went to a big trail ride, and of course, I learned that with these horse guys that it's a lot more about sitting around drinking than it is about actually riding  My mare stayed quietly tied to a tree all day, dozing. I could leave, go inside, go to the bathroom, and knew that when I got back she would still be quietly standing there. There was another rider there who couldn't tie her horse at all. It was a big, spooky, reactive warmblood, and she had to stand there holding it for hours because she couldn't tie it.

I am very glad that the trainer taught my horse to tie. Tying is a necessary skill in my opinion. It's something that a horse needs to learn. In fact, if a horse I was considering buying wouldn't tie, I don't think I would be taking that horse home-it's that important to me. 

I like a horse that you can tie anywhere, anytime, and trust that it will still be there hours later dozing. I absolutely despise horses that pull, rear, flip out when they are tied.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Cherie said:


> I think that tying a horse with something that it can break only teaches it to set back and break everything it is tied with.
> 
> Find a safe place to tie it with something it cannot break. I cannot stress how counter-productive it is to intentionally tie a horse with something you know it is going to break. It only teaches it to break equipment.


 
I agree 100%! That's why I have a wall & a post of knowledge equipped with rubber tire tubes. Horses need to know to stand tied for their safety and ours. There are too many situations that require them to do so even if you never plan to tie to tack up, etc. Shows without stalls means tying to the trailer, sometimes for hours.(How many times at a show do you hear "Loose horse" over the p.a. system?) Emergency vet calls may mean needing to be tied so you can assist the vet instead of holding the horse. It would be pretty tough to camp/trail ride with a horse that wouldn't tie and facilities that don't allow portable pens. If you ever plan to breed a mare live cover without pasture breeding she needs to know how to be tied. Treating injuries without someone to hold your horse for you. Clipping & banding or braiding manes is a real treat on a horse that won't stand still tied. 

I require all of mine to learn to tie (and not with baling twine or something breakable) from the time they are weanlings. There have been more than one occasion in my life that had they not been taught to tie and stand there would have been horrible consequences for something that IMHO is basic training.


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## Mocha26

I don't think ive ever left Mocha tied for hours, maybe more like an hour, for training purposes. But I find it's very helpful for many reasons. As long as the horse isn't hitting it's head on anything or digging at the ground, I see no problem with it. Mocha doesn't "check out" or anything like that, in fact, she doesnt even mind it a bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RodeoLoco

Cherie said:


> I think that tying a horse with something that it can break only teaches it to set back and break everything it is tied with.
> 
> Find a safe place to tie it with something it cannot break. I cannot stress how counter-productive it is to intentionally tie a horse with something you know it is going to break. It only teaches it to break equipment.


My old belgian stud did this. He would put all his weight on the rope, and snap it. So I tied him to a big tree with a chain one day, and left him there for 10 hours. He never broke things again. :lol:


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## glitterhorse

I could see how it sounds cruel, but what else would the horse be doing? Grazing? Standing in it's stall? I don't think the horse would mind at all, though he may get bored every once in awhile.


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## Sarahandlola

RodeoLoco said:


> My old belgian stud did this. He would put all his weight on the rope, and snap it. So I tied him to a big tree with a chain one day, and left him there for 10 hours. He never broke things again. :lol:


Not clever at all! What on earth would you have done if he started freaking out and got really hurt =/

I will always tie to something than can break for the horses safety. Lola hardly ever pulls..and when she does it is not strong enough to break so she is not gonna think she can escape the whole time.


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## RodeoLoco

Sarahandlola said:


> Not clever at all! What on earth would you have done if he started freaking out and got really hurt =/
> 
> I will always tie to something than can break for the horses safety. Lola hardly ever pulls..and when she does it is not strong enough to break so she is not gonna think she can escape the whole time.


If he did pull, he wouldn't get hurt because nothing would snap. I have a pull horse rear, and his halter snapped, the metal part hit him in the eye and he went blind.


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## Sarahandlola

So what happens if he falls over and cannot get up?

A pony here a few days ago caught his headcollar in a chain in the stalls. Luckily he was quiet enough not to panic or he would have been badly hurt.


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## Silvera

Sarahandlola said:


> So what happens if he falls over and cannot get up?
> 
> A pony here a few days ago caught his headcollar in a chain in the stalls. Luckily he was quiet enough not to panic or he would have been badly hurt.


That is a possibility, but it's also a possibility when you have something that breaks. I had a mare that broke the cross ties and cast herself against the stall on the other side. The barn was an old cattle barn that the stalls where tubes, they had put up plywood for safety. She kicked through the plywood and had her legs through the bars. We are lucky she didn't break her legs. The reason she fell is BECAUSE the cross ties broke.

Generally speaking (not always as there is always a chance for something to happen) they brace themselves and are pretty balanced so aren't as likely to fall. They are more likely to fall after what they are bracing against suddenly is no longer there.

You should always be close by if you are doing anything that could be potentially dangerous. However that being said, you need to do what you have too to get the job done.


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## DubyaS6

RodeoLoco said:


> My old belgian stud did this. He would put all his weight on the rope, and snap it. So I tied him to a big tree with a chain one day, and left him there for 10 hours. He never broke things again. :lol:


Agreed!

And with Cherie too


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## sandy2u1

My personal opinion on this (and it is just an opinion as I'm not a trainer) is that we need to teach our horses to deal with as many situations as possible. Our domesticated horses are a long way from the wild and free horses of the past. Their lives have changed completely and they will face many things in life that a wild horse would never have to. I believe it is our responsibility to teach our horses to deal with as many situations as possible...before it becomes a have to. 

You start desensitizing a trail horse to scary objects and sounds at your barn in the safety of the arena or round-pen long before you take him out on the trail (or you should any way). It prepares them for uncertainty of what happens on the trail. If you didn't, the first time a bag comes blowing by you in the wind, you have a bolting or even bucking horse on your hands. 

To me it is the same theory with tying. You can't wait until your horse has to be tied for a long period of time (for whatever reason) and then worry about it. That is a disaster waiting to happen. Why not go ahead and prepare him for that...just in case. 

To make an argument that we shouldn't teach our domesticated horses to stand tied because wild horses don't do it is...well, just pointless IMO. It is no excuse not to prepare them for the life they now live.


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## AlexS

Standing tied is one thing, and I would like this to be for a few hours, but then I would walk the horse before tying again. I would not leave them for 10 hours, unless I was a long trail rider and the horse was tied overnight - for most of us, I think we can give a horse a break, even at a show. 


As for tying a horse to a tree. I used to board at a place where the owner was old school and has his way of doing things. He would not hear anything else. He got a young horse who knew little, and to teach it respect he put on two halters, and three lead ropes and tied the horse one inch from a solid tree. The horse freaked, slashed up his face and eye, and flipped over. I walked away but the owner came in with a calm horse that now does what it needs to do. 

I would never do this to a horse, but he was successful in breaking the horses will or soul. And I am not a NH follower, but it is not for me.

I can see a need for a 4 hour tie, but not a 10+ hour.


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## HollyBubbles

Sarahandlola said:


> Not clever at all! What on earth would you have done if he started freaking out and got really hurt =/
> 
> I will always tie to something than can break for the horses safety. Lola hardly ever pulls..and when she does it is not strong enough to break so she is not gonna think she can escape the whole time.


What was the owner supposed to do being that she had a belgian stud that would put all his weight on things and break them on purpose knowing that he could get free? Was she supposed to just sit there and say, "ohwell, there goes another halter/leadrope down the drain, and look loose horse again" ? I don't know about you but if my horses did this on purpose they would **** well learn you just do not do that. For their safety and mine. I wouldn't be able to take my horses anywhere if they broke things on purpose, imagine having to be tied to a float/truck at a show, that would be a nightmare for everybody at the venue.

(not trying to sound mean, you know how things come out on computers:lol: I'm just stating my opinion, I hope it didn't sound rude because I didn't mean it to)
Although I will add if I ever have to use the method of force and tie them by a chain to a big tree, I would keep watch of them with my trusty bolt cutters in case something did happen.


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## Sarahandlola

That is what I am saying...She said she had left him for 10 hours..So no watching him or having something to free him quickly. Unless she did and worded it wrong..

I would never ever do that to my horse. If she got stuck etc she would freak out and be worse off than she was before.


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## Cherie

Well, I live on a VERY busy US Highway where thousands of semi trucks go past every day at 70MPH. Sometimes it takes me several minutes to get out of my own driveway and out onto that highway. The very last thing I need is to have a loose horse running out on it. 

So, I teach them all to tie solidly and to tie well. I have 60 horses and they ALL will stand tied for hours including my two stallions. I have several very safe places to tie horses up. I have three oilfield storage tanks that have been made into a grain storage bins (a 400 barrel tank hold 1 1/2 semi-loads of grain and stands 20 feet tall X 12 feet in diameter). I now only use 1 as a grain bin and the other two have been made into tack rooms. They are smooth and have had big horseshoes welded to the outside of them some 7 feet above the ground. 

A second horseshoe is welded some 8 feet away. I can run a strong 20 foot nylon rope THROUGH the one horseshoe and tie it off to the second one. A quick release knot allows me to tie a horse to one of the horseshoes, seven feet above the ground and I can quickly untie the horse without getting near it if I have to.

I tie a horse long enough that it can stand comfortably. By having the horseshoe 7 feet above the ground, I can give a horse enough freedom to be comfortable and still not have the rope long enough to have him get in trouble. About as high as his withers seems to work the best.

I never have to worry about the horses I raise and teach to tie, but the spoiled ones I trained for so many years were a different story. Many set back and threw themselves to the ground when they found they could not break their halters. This is the kind of violent reaction you can get when you teach horses that they can break anything they are tied with. It is soooo much better to not spoil them in the first place. I spent a lifetime cleaning up enept people's messes, so I can tell you first hand that doing it right the first time is so important.

I start out tying young ones for short periods of time and ALWAYS put them up when they are standing quietly. After tying one several times for grooming, I leave them alone while I work on a different one but stay where I can keep an eye on all of them. They are most likely too throw a fit when you take other horses away and they are the only one still standing there. So, I make sure they are standing quietly before I put the last one up.

Once a horse has been well taught to stand tied, you can then tie it anywhere, and not have to worry about it. I never give it a thought to tie a trail horse overnight to a tree limb, picket line or trailer and go to bed. I will tie such a horse with enough rope to lay down, eat hay and reach a water bucket that has been set in an old tire. The rope typically comes a foot from the ground. I have also taught a good many horse to 'stake out' on a 20 foot rope tied to a stake. Horses that have been taught to properly give to a rope will learn very quickly to not fight and will learn to step out of the rope. I used to run pack strings and take out hunters in the mountains of Western Colorado. Every trail horse and pack horse was taught to stake out. Other people would send my their horses to tech them to tie and to stake out well.

It all starts with teaching a horse to stand quietly while tied. To me, this is a most important lesson for every horse to learn.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Love the oil tank idea Cherie. Brilliant set-up. Although I think I'd be hard pressed to find one here in the middle of corn country lol! 

I like you have never had issues with my own as they learn from the time they are weanlings, but have also dealt with several spoiled horses for others that were never expected. I took a colt a couple yrs ago that had been to a cowboy colt starter (normally not a problem) but he just saddled and did everything with him in the middle of the pen, never tied him as his only objective was to get on his back. My every day barn saddle is an old custom Charles Crawley (he sold to Crates years ago) and there is no way I could toss that old heavy thing one armed on a dancing green colt! He was rideable but all of the training basics had been skipped. So of course we started over at the post of knowledge. 

I too live near a very busy highway, it's about a 1/2 mile away. It's a major highway that runs cross country so it's always loaded with long haul truckers and a nasty S curve right off of our little country road. I shudder at the thought of the outcome of a loose horse. 

As far as the stud who was tied for 10 hrs, I say kudos to you. If that's what it took, I would have absolutely done the same. Any horse that breaks free can be dangerous, a stud even more so. I judged a show once where a young couple had a young stud (imho they had zero business with him to begin with) The stud freaked at the trailer when tied & busted loose on a packed show grounds. Before he was caught he had chewed up a couple geldings & covered several mares. I stopped the class in the pen, had them stay put and joined to help catch him. Once caught all information was exchanged and they were asked to leave the show grounds. Fortunately for other owners they did take care of vet bills and shots to abort the mares he had gotten too....if they had tied his dumb butt up for 10 hours and let him fuss it out the situation would have turned out much differently.


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## candandy49

There is so much great input here in this thread. What I found to use for a tie rail is 3 surplus - 10 foot long railroad ties. Each upright got a hole dug and concrete poured to set them in. Then the cross rail *make certain it is at least wither high or taller,add gusset plates* and bolted securely. After getting that done only one horse here started to pitch fit, wanna know what I did? I told said horse, "you want to pitch a fit, well here goes, I kicked him square in the belly, waved my arms. As soon as he realized I was the "alpha mare" he did back down.


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## TheLovedOne

I know so much good input here... it reminds me of the story that I read on the fuglyblog about a world class trainer that tied a horse to a tree to teach 'em and the said horse ended up killing himself and the entire area was completely blood soaked. Good for you candandy49 for kicking said horse you are a winner!


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## nrhareiner

When I tie a horse I make sure they are tied solid also. I do not what them getting away. Once they learn they can get loose that is all it takes and it is very very hard to teach them that they can not get loose and to not pull. If they never learn it the first time then they have it and they do not continue to pull in an attempt to get loose.


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## TheLovedOne

I prepare and teach my horses to stand tied. The point is that I teach them so that they are happy to be tied and there is absolutely no abuse or kicking or strangling or anything like that to "get them to understand". It is important to tie them to things that are not going to come apart like a gate etc since that could also create terrible injuries. It could be that everyone here that talks about tying is teaching their horse but they are not communicating that. I know people who think teaching a horse to trailer load also involves whipping, bum ropes whatever and in the end you have a horse that won't load or that loads but is a nervous wreck the whole time they are in the trailer. Same thing with tying: if you teach them it is a good place then it will be retained. If you just drag them to a wall and make them "fight it out" then chances are they will not tie reliably either since there may be a time they get tied to something that isn't so strong - now what do you think will happen then. So in conclusion we have to teach/prepare our horse and not just expect them to "understand" when they can't get away. The same thing is true for all aspects of horse development the more we get horses to relax and think the things we want are good the better the horse will be. It really is simple, however, it means that we humans have to learn things and become better ourselves. Maybe that is where the challenge is.


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## Northern

There's an assumption in the conclusion that people who tied their horses solid have made:

"He never tried to break free again!" doesn't mean he never *will *(if still alive).

The longer you leave that horse tied, the more chance there is that he'll test it.  Nothing much else to do, right?


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## nrhareiner

Northern said:


> There's an assumption in the conclusion that people who tied their horses solid have made:
> 
> "He never tried to break free again!" doesn't mean he never *will *(if still alive).
> 
> The longer you leave that horse tied, the more chance there is that he'll test it.  Nothing much else to do, right?


You are also making the assumption that no matter how well they are trained that they will never test it. All mine are well trained and tie well. They all give very well to pressure they under stand very well about being tied yet they will still test it from time to time. Does not matter how well trained they are they will still at some point test it. If they get loose when they test it they will keep doing it. That is why I tie them solid. If they test it and they do not get loose they are less likely to test it again. If they get loose they are more likely to test it again. B/C they have learned something by testing it.


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## Northern

nrhareiner said:


> You are also making the assumption that no matter how well they are trained that they will never test it.


 Horses will test IS my point, whether they at first were just tied solid, or whether they were taught to yield to poll pressure before being tied, but:

I was discussing the assumption some made concerning the* first* scenario; never said or implied that a horse won't test if taught to yield to poll pressure, the *other* way.

Horses will test just about everything, to avoid further confusion such as may have arisen in your mind, reiner, on what I think about it.


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## nrhareiner

I understand what you are saying. My point is that you are better off tying a horse solid to begin with. Teach them what they need to know but at the end of the day if they get loose they will keep testing it.


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## TheLovedOne

Horses will keep testing the rope whether they are tied to something solid or not but if they are not prepared and you tie them to something solid then that is abuse. Now some horses like your really nice Pocos may be fine; however, there are plenty of other highly reactive, uneducated horses (which I believe are being called spoiled) that will likely kill themselves.


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## Cherie

I used to train a lot of Arabians and most of them came to me thoroughly spoiled by people that told me "you can't do this or that with him" etc. They had been taught that they had no boundaries because they were Arabians.

I also used to get a number of big, stout TBs in to break after the yearling sales every fall in KY. Most of them, too, had not been tied outside of in their stalls where they could not set back.

I trained all of them to stand tied solidly and to go correctly on a hot walker. I did not kill any of them and did not injure any of them and they were very 'reactive' kinds of horses. Many went on to great show records and noteworthy race records. The trainers at the track always liked to get horses that I started because they were so well mannered and never threw fits at the gate or in the saddling paddock.

Being a 'hot-blood' does NOT mean that a horse cannot be trained to have good manners including being tied however long you want to tie it.


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## Alwaysbehind

TheLovedOne said:


> it reminds me of the story that I read on the fuglyblog about a world class trainer that tied a horse to a tree to teach 'em and the said horse ended up killing himself and the entire area was completely blood soaked.


I am not sure I would use the term world class trainer and the horse (if we are talking about the same situation) had known issues with being tied and said trainer knew it.


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## jwells84

I do not believe tying horses for an extended period of time is cruel either. I saddle break horses, and if I get one who is really impatient I'll tie him or her up. It's a good training technique and look at it this way most horses stand up all day in the pasture or stall so besides being "stuck" to something it's not all that different.


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## nrhareiner

Not sure why TLO you think that Pocos are not reactive horses and why that the horses I have are not reactive. A good reiners is very reactive. They are just taught to control it.


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## TheLovedOne

Reiner - I am pretty sure that you teach your horses to tie before you tie them to something solid - right. As far as the pocos go - they are easy compared to the other breeds I have worked with that is what makes them desirable. Of course they need to have some get up and go but compared to a hot warmblood I will say it again - easy!

You are all focusing on just tying them up and leaving them for hours. In contrast I am focusing on teaching them to tie before you tie them up and walk away. Do guys realize how many people out there hear what you are saying and then just tie them to something solid and hope for divine intervention. Lots of people and that is why so many horses have issues tying. 

Cherie I read some of your posts and I think that you are more than likely quite effective with your horses but I also think that you are not communicating what it is that you do to teach a horse. Instead you focus on what it is that the horse must do for you which should be your goal (as it is I'm sure) but having a goal without discussing how you arrived at it is not very useful. Sadly this leads a lot of people to just drag their horses to the nearest tree and leave them. Guess what happens they learn how not to tie.

I have a pretty diverse herd of horses and guess what they all tie and all have great manners and I don't force them and I don't abuse them.


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## nrhareiner

I teach my horses to tie from day one. It starts but teaching them to lead. It is a progression from there. However once they actually start to tie they get tied solid even when they are tided as weanling. 

Boy you have not worked with my Poco Bred horses at least ones with Poco close up when crossed with Doc Bar horses and then add in some Peppy.

Then lets talk about Dun It horses. What makes they great is the fact that they are very responsive up horses. 

The difference is that they are taught to control that from day one. At least the good ones are. I do not keep laid back lazy horses. Had one once and sold him. They do not work well.


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## TheLovedOne

I actually find horses that are responsive way easier to work with and I am 100% sure that I would have no problem working with your horses whatsoever. What I find more complicated is horses that appear slow (or lazy as you call them) and then they are extremely reactive. I have never seen a quarterhorse act like that. I know a women here locally that works with warmbloods and she says that when someone sent her a quarterhorse she thought that she should pay them to work with the horse because it was soooo easy. I know some AQHAs can be a bigger challenge than others - of course - but in general and comparing to other breeds especially warmbloods these little AQHAs are a piece of cake. I can assure you that I have worked with lots of AQHAs.


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## DubyaS6

TheLovedOne said:


> I actually find horses that are responsive way easier to work with and I am 100% sure that I would have no problem working with your horses whatsoever. What I find more complicated is horses that appear slow (or lazy as you call them) and then they are extremely reactive. I have never seen a quarterhorse act like that. I know a women here locally that works with warmbloods and she says that when someone sent her a quarterhorse she thought that she should pay them to work with the horse because it was soooo easy. I know some AQHAs can be a bigger challenge than others - of course - but in general and comparing to other breeds especially warmbloods these little AQHAs are a piece of cake. I can assure you that I have worked with lots of AQHAs.


Just my personal opinion here, but you are WAY over generalizing breeds here :wink:

To ASSume that all AQHAs are "a piece of cake" would just be ignorant on your part.

We have several top quality show horses (including both AQHAs and Warmbloods) at the barn I board at and some of the Warmbloods make the AQHAs look like basketcases.


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## nrhareiner

TheLovedOne said:


> I actually find horses that are responsive way easier to work with and I am 100% sure that I would have no problem working with your horses whatsoever. What I find more complicated is horses that appear slow (or lazy as you call them) and then they are extremely reactive. I have never seen a quarterhorse act like that. I know a women here locally that works with warmbloods and she says that when someone sent her a quarterhorse she thought that she should pay them to work with the horse because it was soooo easy. I know some AQHAs can be a bigger challenge than others - of course - but in general and comparing to other breeds especially warmbloods these little AQHAs are a piece of cake. I can assure you that I have worked with lots of AQHAs.


I am sure you have since there are so many out there. There is a big differance between different lines of QH. I would ask what the pedigree was like. I too have worked around and know a lot of WB as I have several friends who show ride and breed them. I have had many in to be bred over the years. Not that hard to handle or train. They are no where as quick as the QH I have worked with and collected and bred over the years. Now TB that is a different story. Really hate collecting TB stallions. They are not here long enough to get them going well. TB mares are a bit different too. However by the 3rd or 4th day they are just like the QH mares in to be bred. Just depends on how you handle them.

It all comes down to how you handle them a lot of the time.


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## TheLovedOne

Cherie said:


> I used to train a lot of Arabians and most of them came to me thoroughly spoiled by people that told me "you can't do this or that with him" etc. They had been taught that they had no boundaries because they were Arabians.


Arabians are very smart horses and are not difficult at all. 



Cherie said:


> Being a 'hot-blood' does NOT mean that a horse cannot be trained to have good manners including being tied however long you want to tie it.


Of course not.

Cherie you seem to focus on horses that have been mishandled by people and I personally find horses like this are quite easy to work with and turn into well behaved horses. What I find more difficult is modifying behaviors of horses that have been abused and stupid people doing stupid things because they don't understand or they misunderstand. That is why I think it is important to explain how we teach horses. You have not done that very well in this thread.


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## TheLovedOne

nrhareiner said:


> It all comes down to how you handle them a lot of the time.


Yes I agree and this it my point completely. It is about knowledge, skills, technique, and time. 

As far as AQHAs go of course there is a huge variety and also with the warmbloods and TBs. I've worked with some really hot TBs and also really hot warmbloods. The hot warmbloods are way more difficult because they are more flexible, athletic, smart, aggressive, fearful ... I could go on than any TB I have ever seen. I've got one and have turned him into a good horse and many people say he seems gentle. But I know that he could be someone's worst nightmare if he were in the wrong hands.


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## TheLovedOne

I have to laugh that you think WBs are not as quick as AQHAs... you haven't seen my WB. He's about 16hh and is quicker than all of my AQHAs and I've got one that is pretty hot.

I would love to see your horses - do you have a website or maybe you could post some photos.


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## nrhareiner

TheLovedOne said:


> But I know that he could be someone's worst nightmare if he were in the wrong hands.


This is true of any horse. I know when I first moved back up here I had to board my horses. They had no clue as to how to handle a stallion. Te b/c very very hard and dangerous for them b/c they had no clue what they where doing. They had just about as hard a time with my mares.

The people who handled them who did have a clue could not figure out why the others where complaining. 

Te is one of the easiest horses to ride and work. Even kids ride him. However if you do not know what you are doing he will in time take advantage of that as any animal would.


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## nrhareiner

Lets see those AQHA's there are a lot of them that are not very quick. However a good cutter or reiner is going to be very quick. They must be.





































I could keep going but you get the picture.


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## TheLovedOne

Yes I know they must be quick - I have a cutting bred gelding and he is very quick but not as quick or as aggressive as the WB. What you have to realize is that WBs were bred for the military to be be big, strong, and aggressive. AQHAs were bred to work on ranches to be calm, smart, and submissive.

I think a lot of horses can be difficult in the wrong hands but my WB would be difficult in "most" hands because most people don't have enough savvy to handle a horse like that. I guess it's just one of those things that cannot be appreciated unless you see if for yourself.


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## nrhareiner

Again I have worked with and collected and bred a lot of WB mares and stallions. Have yet to find one that is as quick as my reiner. I can not speak for ever QH or every WB. I can only speak of the ones I have worked with and been around. Believe me when you are under them collecting you find out how quick they really are.


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## TheLovedOne

nrhareiner said:


> Believe me when you are under them collecting you find out how quick they really are.


Too funny! I'll bet that is true and another I don't need to ever do in my life . We certainly all have our own experiences. BTW your horses (I assume they are yours) are lovely.


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## nrhareiner

Yes they are mine. Thanks. 

Would love to see some of yours. Love WB. My favorite has been a TB Trakaner cross that my vet owned that was in for breeding. She was a big thing and so sweet. One of her daughters not so much but the last one out of that mare very very nice. Would steel her however the owner (my vet) would find her at some point.


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## TheLovedOne

DubyaS6 said:


> Just my personal opinion here, but you are WAY over generalizing breeds here :wink:


I probably am but over the years I have noticed breed similarities and guess what that's what registries try to accomplish. They breed for specific qualities and specific reasons so it's not just my imagination.




DubyaS6 said:


> To ASSume that all AQHAs are "a piece of cake" would just be ignorant on your part.


Thanks. However, that has been my experience and I have worked with a lot of horses over the past 40 years; however, I do find any horse that has been abused more difficult than other horses regardless of breed.



DubyaS6 said:


> We have several top quality show horses (including both AQHAs and Warmbloods) at the barn I board at and some of the Warmbloods make the AQHAs look like basketcases.


Well there's your problem at boarding farms you get to see all sorts of incompetents handling horses. I know loads of people who are sooo careful around the big warmbloods and mistreat the smaller AQHAs so they turn into nervous wrecks.


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## TheLovedOne

nrhareiner said:


> Would love to see some of yours. Love WB. My favorite has been a TB Trakaner cross that my vet owned that was in for breeding. She was a big thing and so sweet. One of her daughters not so much but the last one out of that mare very very nice. Would steel her however the owner (my vet) would find her at some point.


It is so nice to hear someone say something favorable about a Trakehner. They have a bad reputation here in BC but I know that in Germany they are considered to be the best WB. I started my neighbors Trakehner across the street years ago and he was so sweet - a little hot but not that bad and he had not been messed up like so many others. 

OK I haven't got any good digital photos of the WB .... but I will try to get some but I did find this one of my Poco with her last foal a few years ago. I had the good fortune to ride that pally when he was two for his second ride around the park. What a sweetheart ... I should have just rode him home


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## DubyaS6

TheLovedOne said:


> I probably am but over the years I have noticed breed similarities and guess what that's what registries try to accomplish. They breed for specific qualities and specific reasons so it's not just my imagination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. However, that has been my experience and I have worked with a lot of horses over the past 40 years; however, I do find any horse that has been abused more difficult than other horses regardless of breed.
> 
> 
> 
> Well there's your problem at boarding farms you get to see all sorts of incompetents handling horses. I know loads of people who are sooo careful around the big warmbloods and mistreat the smaller AQHAs so they turn into nervous wrecks.


Well its painfully obvious to me now that you are the trainer of all trainers.

I am sorry for having my own opinion in your thread.


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## TheLovedOne

Now don't be silly DubyaS6. I just love teaching horses, being with horses and I also like some humans.


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## HollyBubbles

> What I find more complicated is horses that appear slow (or lazy as you call them) and then they are extremely reactive.


You've just smacked the nail on the head if you wanted to describe Mitchell... Want to come over to nz and gimme a hand :lol: ?

But back to the tied up business.... What if, instead of forcing the difficult horse to be tied for a long period of time to teach him/her a lesson... I know that some people "desensitise"(sp?) horses to floats by working them by it, and letting them learn that when they are by it, it means they can rest, so they think it's good.

so what if you were to work the difficult horse, and let it realise that being tied up means rest, by only letting it rest properly when it is tied up?


-Just a thought  if it even made sense :lol:


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## iridehorses

Clinton Anderson does a training exercise using the tie ring and a 20' lead rope specifically for horses that don't tie well.


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## jwells84

from what I've seen the tie ring works well. I have one,but have never(yet) had the opportunity to use it.


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## RATHER BE RIDING

@HollyBubbles - That is exactly what I did when teaching my horses to tie. FIRST, I taught yielding to pressure and how to give. Then, when I had them tied and was grooming or working on feet and they got antsy, I would untie them and make them move. Circles, backing, yielding the hind end or shoulder. Then I would tie them again and go back to what I was doing. All of mine, now stand quietly whether I am working with them or doing something else around the barn.


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## RATHER BE RIDING

Wow, I have to say that I am really surprised at the number of posts regarding this topic. I stand corrected and will concede that it is not cruel if used for the ultimate goal of keeping horse and rider safe. I do not trail ride to the extent of long breaks and did not consider a horse having to stand for long periods of time quietly if you were injured and waiting for help. I did show when I was younger and the horses always stood quietly at the trailer while waiting for our next class. We never taught them to do that, they just did. I guess we were lucky that we always had calm horses. 

For those of you who felt it necessary to be a little snide with your response, please note that I said IMO it seemed cruel, but that I was willing to keep an open mind, and I did, and I learned something.


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## TheLovedOne

HollyBubbles said:


> You've just smacked the nail on the head if you wanted to describe Mitchell... Want to come over to nz and gimme a hand :lol: ?
> so what if you were to work the difficult horse, and let it realise that being tied up means rest, by only letting it rest properly when it is tied up?
> 
> -Just a thought  if it even made sense :lol:


Yes that is it exactly. You have to make it a place of comfort and you have teach them to yield to poll pressure so that they think "oh I'm confused but wait if I just come forward and yield to this pressure I will be fine". Now you've got a horse that will tie reliably.

If there was one place in the world I would actually move to, it would be NZ. I would love to come over and give you a hand


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## MHFoundation Quarters

RATHER BE RIDING said:


> For those of you who felt it necessary to be a little snide with your response, please note that I said IMO it seemed cruel, but that I was willing to keep an open mind, and I did, and I learned something.


 
Best thing you could have gotten from it  I'm pretty new on here and it's amazing to me how quickly these threads go from someone genuinely wanting to learn to he/said she/said right fighting over opinions. I can't count how many times I've heard my grandfather say "Opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one". 

Here's my 2 cents. Read it, watch it, observe it, try it...take the bits and pieces from each experience and tweak it into what makes it feel right for you and the individual horses you work with. Some like natural horsemanship, some don't. There are laid back trainers and agressive trainers. There are trainers who work slower & some who push for deadlines. As there are horses with a million different personalities & quirks. There isn't a right or a wrong, just a combo of what works for each person. You wouldn't send your dressage prospect to a cutting trainer or vice versa, but could each learn something from the other, of course! 

Good luck in your training endeavors! It's the best job in the world


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## ridergirl23

sorry, I'm on my iPod and I haven't read to many posts, but I think it's important for any horse to know how to be patient and tie well, no matter if it's a QH or WB, it should stand patiently and relaxed while tied. I think it's useful because if there's an emergency you should be able to leave that horse there and trust it won't hurt itself from being impatient or flipping out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoHorse

I haven't read all the pages so far, but I believe it was Clinton Anderson who said he always ties his horses after a lesson; it teaches them there's no reason to rush back to the barn because once they get there, they just stand-- versus getting fed, brushed, etc. He also said that it lets the lesson kind of 'sink in'. 

I totally agree with horses being tied for hours- for safety, convenience, and sanity reasons- but what about tie stalls? I know they're safe because the tie is weighted so they can't get tangled up, and they can lie down, but isn't facing one direction for up to 12 hours mind-numbing?


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## Sarahandlola

And today I realise why I tie Lola to something that will break...She was pawing the ground. I was helping with a lesson so I was pretty far away from her. But I seen her paw pretty high. She got her leg stuck in the lead rope. If she did not pull back and break the bailing twine she could have flipped over, broken her leg etc. If the twine did not break so quickly she would have had a severe panic attack. So I will still be tying her to breakable things XD


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## nrhareiner

Sarahandlola said:


> And today I realise why I tie Lola to something that will break...She was pawing the ground. I was helping with a lesson so I was pretty far away from her. But I seen her paw pretty high. She got her leg stuck in the lead rope. If she did not pull back and break the bailing twine she could have flipped over, broken her leg etc. If the twine did not break so quickly she would have had a severe panic attack. So I will still be tying her to breakable things XD


First thing tie so they can not get their leg over it. I do not give them that much slack. So that will not happen.

Next teach then of they get tangled to just stop and stand. All mine are taught this again from an early age again so this will not happen. I have horses tangled in all kind of things over the year and they will just stand until you get them out of it.

Maybe b/c I use to rope that I do this with all my horses but even before that they learned this from foals.


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## Sarahandlola

It was tied really high. That is the thing! She was lifting her leg so high it got stuck in the lead rope in the air. So she was pretty much standing on three legs with one in the air stuck XD I was so worried because it was her bad leg but she was ok.


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## equiniphile

I have not read any but the first few posts.

Tying for hours is very valuable. Actually, Molly could benefit from it, she'll probably come to terms with this practice sometime this summer. She needs to learn some patience.


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## TheLovedOne

nrhareiner said:


> Next teach then of they get tangled to just stop and stand. All mine are taught this again from an early age again so this will not happen. I have horses tangled in all kind of things over the year and they will just stand until you get them out of it.


This reminds me of one of my paint mares who rolled underneath my horse wire fence about a year ago. I saw it and thought oh boy I guess I'll have to get the wire cutters.... but she just lay there trapped underneath. Her eyes were blinking and she was also licking. So by the time I came back my appyX mare had taken an interest and asked her to get up from out there. So she wiggled her way out of it, got up and just walked away calmly. If she had panicked that would have been ugly. She has been taught to yield to pressure and think things through but this story is really just a testament to her temperament.


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## Sarahandlola

Oh and I forgot to say after she broke away she just stood there until someone went to get her and put her in a stall.


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## AllThePrettyHorses

Sarahandlola said:


> And today I realise why I tie Lola to something that will break...She was pawing the ground. I was helping with a lesson so I was pretty far away from her. But I seen her paw pretty high. She got her leg stuck in the lead rope. If she did not pull back and break the bailing twine she could have flipped over, broken her leg etc. If the twine did not break so quickly she would have had a severe panic attack. So I will still be tying her to breakable things XD


This happened to my mare-I tied her up outside at the hitching post and left her, going inside the barn to clean stalls. I heard her clattering around out on the pavement, poked my head out the barn door and she had her leg caught up in the chain. I ran over, told her to whoa, and got her free. Never again have I made the mistake of leaving a loop dangling at leg-height. If she wasn't so sensible, I would've lost my horse that day.


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## Northern

Reiner, would you be good enough to share how you teach your horses to stand still when tangled in a rope? I'd love to learn that!


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## nrhareiner

Not all that hard. You first get them use to things hitting their legs. I use a lunge whip for this rubbing it around their legs then lighting swinging it so it wraps around their leg. This also is how I get them use to picking up their feet if they are older and do not know yet.

Then I move up to a rope once they get use to the lunge whip and do it so it will slip off if needed. Then onto a regular rope like you use for calf or team roping. They also learn to lead by their leg this way and then also to hobble. By the time you are done they learn to stand when they get scared.

This is one of the first things I teach a horse as most of them are roped off of at one point or anouther and I have seen horses get all tangled in the rope too many times.


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## Northern

Thank you very much, reiner!


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## RodeoLoco

Sarahandlola said:


> And today I realise why I tie Lola to something that will break...She was pawing the ground. I was helping with a lesson so I was pretty far away from her. But I seen her paw pretty high. She got her leg stuck in the lead rope. If she did not pull back and break the bailing twine she could have flipped over, broken her leg etc. If the twine did not break so quickly she would have had a severe panic attack. So I will still be tying her to breakable things XD


I do agree with reiner. I have to say, my horses cant get their legs over their head. But it may help that my tie ring is 2 feet above my head. Thats roughly 7 feet above the ground, and I tie them with no slack, unless their eating. But IMO horses shouldn't be eating if they are getting ready to work. I could see if it was practice or just standing being brushed. But when I tie my horses to saddle up and go, I tie tight. So I am totally with Reiner.


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## mom2pride

Frankiee said:


> I understand it will teach your horse patience and this is just my opinion but I dont believe you must make him stand for hours! Its a little over exaderation for me.


When you decide to take a horse overnight on a trail ride, or to a show where there are no access to stalls, you will not feel that that extra time you've put into having your horse stand tied is exxagerated. As long as the area you are tying the horse is safe, and you can see him while you work, there is no reason you can't have him stand tied for a long while here and there. It pays in dividends later on.

I also usually tie up fairly high. A horse should ALWAYS be tied NO lower than wither height in the first place, and he shouldn't have a ton of slack to get his legs over a lead rope.


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## RodeoLoco

mom2pride said:


> When you decide to take a horse overnight on a trail ride, or to a show where there are no access to stalls, you will not feel that that extra time you've put into having your horse stand tied is exxagerated. As long as the area you are tying the horse is safe, and you can see him while you work, there is no reason you can't have him stand tied for a long while here and there. It pays in dividends later on.
> 
> I also usually tie up fairly high. A horse should ALWAYS be tied NO lower than wither height in the first place, and he shouldn't have a ton of slack to get his legs over a lead rope.


Exactly. I was at a barrel show, with two horses, so I tied one to the trailer while I worked the other. Well, before I got back there was an accident with one of the other horses in the ring. By the time they got it cleaned up, both my horses were standing, tied for 5 hours. I was glad I taught them to stand correctly. If not I would have had to take them home.


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## kevinshorses

Sarahandlola said:


> It was tied really high. That is the thing! She was lifting her leg so high it got stuck in the lead rope in the air. So she was pretty much standing on three legs with one in the air stuck XD I was so worried because it was her bad leg but she was ok.


If you were tied high enough and short enough your horse wouldn't have gotten a leg over the rope. I tie at about wither height and no longer than my arm. The only way a horse can get its leg over the rope is to rear and even then it is highly unlikely. Do what suits you but in my many years of handling horses (many of them untrained) I haven't seen a horse seriously injured when tied properly in a safe place but I've seen a few get loose and get hurt.


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## RodeoLoco

kevinshorses said:


> If you were tied high enough and short enough your horse wouldn't have gotten a leg over the rope. I tie at about wither height and no longer than my arm. The only way a horse can get its leg over the rope is to rear and even then it is highly unlikely. Do what suits you but in my many years of handling horses (many of them untrained) I haven't seen a horse seriously injured when tied properly in a safe place but I've seen a few get loose and get hurt.


I agree. I have been training horses for 16 years now. The worst I have seen is a horse that got tangled in a rope on the trailer. That was because the tie rings on the trailer were about knee high on the horse. I now tie onto a horse shoe I welded to the top (7 feet).


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## nrhareiner

I have shown a lot of weanlings and even they know how to stand tied to a trailer for quite some time. What else are you going to do with them if they can not tie?


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## RodeoLoco

nrhareiner said:


> I have shown a lot of weanlings and even they know how to stand tied to a trailer for quite some time. What else are you going to do with them if they can not tie?


Exactly. I had a mare that would not stand. I couldn't do anything with her. So I tied her to the trailer and went inside for a couple of hours. She now has no problems with tying.


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## HollyBubbles

TheLovedOne said:


> Yes that is it exactly. You have to make it a place of comfort and you have teach them to yield to poll pressure so that they think "oh I'm confused but wait if I just come forward and yield to this pressure I will be fine". Now you've got a horse that will tie reliably.
> 
> If there was one place in the world I would actually move to, it would be NZ. I would love to come over and give you a hand


Yay I got somethng right:lol: I just remembered seeing that technique in another thread about desensitizing to horse floats and thought the method could be adapted slightly .

If you ever think about coming over to new zealand let me know :lol: he's not a badly behaved horse by any means, just young and a pain in the bum 6 days out of 7:lol:.


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## westlytraining

Ive used it on alot of horses to teach patience it works very well. If I have a horse that is jiggy and wont stand still at all I have seen alot of good results and its safe for people because the horse learns that if they stand still and move up enough to let the rope go loose . I have gotten great improvement on ground manners afterward. Plus then if you do have to tie them for some reason and leave off out of site you know they will be safe. The barn I ride at has a tie wall in a corner of the arena and it works great because you can have one tied and work another one.


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## jwells84

Really not trying to change the subject,but what is a horse float? I've never heard that term. Thanks


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## Cherie

It is the British / Aussie term for a trailer to haul horses. A truck is a lorie or some such thing.


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## natisha

jdw said:


> I am the one that said teach me to teach him. One of you responed by saying a 22' line over a fence rail and make them pull back. I also said he sets her down~breaks the freaking brand new leather halter. He can really PULL. He broke a tree for crying out loud. Yes, we are working on leading correctly as well. He lags behind when we lead. We all inherit or sometimes buy horses that aren't the ideal already made into what I want horses. He is 18 years old. Do you have any avice on teaching him to tie, and if so how? I know it doesnt seem hard. I have just never owned a knucklehead like this before! Does anybody have any idea besides taking a 2x4 to his head???


Get an Aussie/Blocker tie ring. Works every time, nothing broken, no one hurt


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## hotreddun

This is one of the more interesting things I've seen as a switched from western riding (of my youth) to english riding (of my adulthood). For some reason...at least in the horses I've been around...most western horses are EXPECTED to stand tied patiently for hours and most english horses are not. I wonder what the difference in thinking is on that one? I wonder if its just rooted in the fact that many western events are one-day haul ins and most jumper shows are overnighters with a stall?

I've found with my new horse that it really relaxes him to get tacked up and allowed to stand for about 20-30 minutes minimum before riding...something that was NOT done with his previous owner. He can't stand to be rushed in and out of the arena...allowing him to relax after saddling really improves his work.


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## nrhareiner

That is how it is around here too. When I started shooting English events and talking to friends who ride English I could not believe that non of their horses with very very few exceptions (and those horses came from western disciplines to begin with) would not tie.


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## Cherie

I have also found that to be the case. Seems to me that many if not most English riders set a very low bar for horse behavior and manners.

It absolutely amazes me that so many English riders accept horrid and even dangerous behavior and expect people to work around these and change their routine to fit the bad manners of the horse.

Like the 'kicking' horse thread -- It is evidently 'normal' to have a horse kick at other riders and horses and everyone else is supposed to watch out for the spoiled dangerous beast. 

I trained Arabian for many years. I could not believe the 'lists' that some of these horses came to me with. They were supposedly trained and partially trained. It was like the horse had spent 6 months training its riders and handlers instead of the other way around. The owners could not believe it when they saw their baby standing still with good manners and riding like a horse was supposed to. They did not think Arabians were supposed to have good manners. After all, they were Arabians and they were supposed to be 'hot' and temperamental. 

I just sit here sometimes and shake my head.


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## TheLovedOne

HollyBubbles that is really sweet of and if I ever go I will let you know 


Yes I too notice a difference between english folks and the western folks but I think that hotreddun may be onto something with the stalls and overnighting.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

TheLovedOne said:


> It's just common for everyone to have a stall whereas the western people don't want to spend any money on that and would rather just tie their horses to a trailer.


Sorry TheLovedOne, but that is a bit offensive. Some of us "western people" do pay for stalls and don't mind spending the extra money. I always stall when it's an option but there are some grounds that don't offer stalls and you have no choice but to tie to the trailer.


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## TheLovedOne

Now I feel like you're picking on me MHFQ. I didn't mean that as an insult. I've had people at events tell me that. So what if they don't want to pay for that and if their horses are well behaved good on them.


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## TheLovedOne

And now I feel bad MHFQ - thanks. I really didn't mean it as an insult at all. Gosh I'm definitely one of those people that wouldn't want to pay. In fact, the last event I went to I got one pen for two horses. I thought my horses are good to be in one pen together... why should I get two. So people look down at others for this. Well I'll be.


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## MHFoundation Quarters

Not trying to pick on you at all and the first part wasn't in reference to what I quoted from you. You are absolutely right that there are many who don't want to spend the money, it was just how it was generalized I guess that made it feel insulting if that makes sense. Kinda like when someone says "Don't by an Arab because they are hot and flighty" or "Ugh, lazy ol' Quarter Horses" maybe those statements are fairly factual and have some base to them, I'm just saying not everyone or everything in one category is the same.


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## TheLovedOne

Oh OK. Now I feel better.... sheesh I'm a little sensitive today  Hey my Arab is not hot & flightly - he's as cool as a cucumber. My quarterhorses are not lazy at all - one's a little hot actually.


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## nrhareiner

It is not a money thing it is a logistic thing. Most places do not offer stalls and if they do the show either requires you to have a stall and if they do not there is a haul in fee. So you are still paying in one way or the other. 

I find that in western events riders tend to bring several horses to show. I do not see that in a lot of English events and when they have more then one they seem to want to put it up before they pull the other out. You never see an English rider ponying a horse like you do at western shows. At an cutting or reining show it is not at all un common to see people ponying and horses tied while the other horse is being wormed up.


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## Speed Racer

Cherie said:


> Seems to me that many if not most English riders set a very low bar for horse behavior and manners.


Hey, way to go feeding the stereotype that MOST English riders let their horses get away with crap, and all those wonderful Western riders are the only ones doing it right! :roll:

MOST English riders, and I can say that, having an English background, do NOT let their horses get away with any more than do MOST Western riders. There are bad in every discipline though, and you're going to get the DQs everywhere.

ALL of my horses, yes even my jiggy, spazztastic Arabian gelding, are expected and _do_ stand tied quietly to the trailer for hours on end. Or the fence, or in their stalls.

But you keep on talking trash, sweetie. After all, we English riders are all just rich snobs who really don't know how to ride anyway, right? :?


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## TheLovedOne

Reiner I take your point and even at english events there is a haul in fee plus the stall fee because not everyone does take a stall. Some people just show up with one horse and then they stay for the class and leave after. Lots of people bring more than one horse but they do get stalls for all of them. 

English, Western I do both and I think that there is good and bad every where in this world.


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## nrhareiner

I agree each have good and bad. It is perhaps b/c of the event I do and then what I shoot. There is such a vast difference between the 2 and how the horses work and behave. 

Ex: One circuit I shoot and have for years. 99% of the horses (in both the H/J and the HUS) do not have a flying lead change. Even the ones I have been shooting for 5+ years still have not flying lead change. Among other problems I do not see at the shows that I show at. Although there are other shows I shoot that have both western and English classes and you will see some of the same things there too. However those are mostly kids.


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## AlexS

My goodness Cherie. Maybe you need to see more English riders. My horse gets away with NOTHING because I expect good manners from him all the time. 
I think it is silly to assume it is due to the style of riding rather than the lack of leadership from the rider.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLovedOne

nrhareiner said:


> Ex: One circuit I shoot and have for years. 99% of the horses (in both the H/J and the HUS) do not have a flying lead change. Even the ones I have been shooting for 5+ years still have not flying lead change. Among other problems I do not see at the shows that I show at. Although there are other shows I shoot that have both western and English classes and you will see some of the same things there too. However those are mostly kids.


Wow really. I have to say that has not been my experience. Everyone or almost everyone can do flying changes but it probably depends on the level you're competing at. But what do the H/Js do if they can't do a fly change?
Do they break gait?


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## nrhareiner

The shows I shoot are rated level state shows. I know that is not the top level but a lot of the horses/riders also show at A rated shows and still have no lead change. The ones who do are either the riders whos horses where originally Western horses and Pams horses who are Gypsy Vanners. Who she sends to a reining trainer to be started.

They just brake gate down to a trot then either stay in the trot or try and pick on the correct lead. There are so many things I see that my 2/3 yos know that these horses do not.

Is it the rider the trainer the discipline I can not say. It is what I see and hear with in these rated shows.


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## TheLovedOne

Interesting. I guess the H/J events that I've seen are probably of high caliber with purses of 30k or more so that probably explains it. Well I guess if it's not required then that's OK and I suppose an argument could be made the other way. Which is the reining community does way too much with horses that are not even 2 years old. So many of them end up unsound by the time they are three. So I don't know I suppose I would rather have a sound horse.


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## nrhareiner

TheLovedOne said:


> Interesting. I guess the H/J events that I've seen are probably of high caliber with purses of 30k or more so that probably explains it. Well I guess if it's not required then that's OK and I suppose an argument could be made the other way. Which is the reining community does way too much with horses that are not even 2 years old. So many of them end up unsound by the time they are three. So I don't know I suppose I would rather have a sound horse.



See that is an incorrect assumption about reining horses. First reiners who are started at the beginning of their 2yo year are started very slowly. Mine even the ones at the trainers do not move out of the walk for the first few months and the next few months are at the trot. They are not asked to stop hard or do anything at speed until they are 3 and the flying lead change is the last thing put on them but they have every thing so solid it is not hard.

I have had quite a few reiners all started as 2yo and every single one retired sound and even my 21yo is still sound to this say and he is a breeding stallion on top of it and that is as hard if not harder on them then showing.

I just expect that a horse especially a show horse should know who to do all these things that really are very basic like flying lead changes side pass stop back and so on.


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## TheLovedOne

Well it could be that the people who do reining, reined cow etc in my community are just not that good. They do a lot of galloping, hard stopping etc on two year olds. In fact, they start backing them when they are 18 months old to get them ready for the futurities. That is what I have seen and I've talked to other people and they say the same things. It's good to hear that you do it differently and that in your circles it is done differently. Do your horses compete in the futurities? 

I don't think that flying changes and half pass (I know you guys don't do half pass) are basic training but of course it is good to ride horses that are that well educated.


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## Katesrider011

Speed Racer said:


> Hey, way to go feeding the stereotype that MOST English riders let their horses get away with crap, and all those wonderful Western riders are the only ones doing it right! :roll:
> 
> MOST English riders, and I can say that, having an English background, do NOT let their horses get away with any more than do MOST Western riders. There are bad in every discipline though, and you're going to get the DQs everywhere.
> 
> ALL of my horses, yes even my jiggy, spazztastic Arabian gelding, are expected and _do_ stand tied quietly to the trailer for hours on end. Or the fence, or in their stalls.
> 
> But you keep on talking trash, sweetie. After all, we English riders are all just rich snobs who really don't know how to ride anyway, right? :?


Well said. 

It's amazing to me how some people somehow manage to stereotype every little thing they can find out there. :roll:


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## nrhareiner

Although a lot of reining trainers start the horses at about 20 months that extra time is spent working on basics. They do not start going the big sliding stops and fast turns and such until closer or even into their 3yo year.

I am in an area where there is more NRHA shows then any other place in the world. There are a few other states that are catching up but if you add the shows that are with in 4 hours of me there is no other place in the world with more shows. Some of the best trainers are in this area and even more travel here to show b/c of the number and size of the shows.

What you are seeing is not the norm. Sounds like the trainers you see are trying to write checks their body's can't cash.


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## TheLovedOne

But what about these futurities. Aren't they all 2 year olds in these shows? I've read about them in the AQHA magazine and there's been talk about all this stuff even in the magazine. 

The reining trainers here are doing what I say. I've seen it and I know other people involved who say that is the way it is. They ruin many horses. Some of them travel to Las Vegas and Texas for shows. They spend months out the year in those areas.


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## Cherie

Wow! Talk about stereotypes?

Most of the high level reiners I know can perform a true half pass and can accomplish very good tempe lead changes. I have watched many of them done with no bridle and watched one (several times) ridden with no neck strap.

Many of the riders have won over $1 million and many of the prospects are purchased for $100,000.00 or more, so they don't go ripping and tearing around on them like old time cowboys. It is very precise training.

No, reining Futurities are for 3 year olds late in their 3 year old year.

Western Pleasure futurities are for 2 year olds, but never reining futurities. (I know absolutely nothing about WP showing or WP horses and don't want to know.)

Some do have soundness problems but more of those are from OCD and other inherited problems. Some bloodlines are very well known for such problems. Some trainers do push them too hard, but most of the really well known trainers are very careful with their prospects. They just have too much time and money invested in them.

I, too, have seen a lot of H/J horses that cannot perform a clean lead change and some of them are on TV in the big Grand Prix classes that are televised on the HRTV network. Some are at the biggest shows in Europe, the UK and Eastern US. I have watched many of them take a good part of the course crossfiring and totally out of sync. I cannot believe so little attention to detail is paid by some of the very high level riders / trainers. Certainly not all of them are that poorly schooled, but I have been very surprised at how many are.


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## TheLovedOne

Stereotype? I only said this since I'm pretty sure that this is not required in any reining pattern. 

Many of the riders winning a $1million - really please name them. 

I am very sure that the top competitors are careful with their horses; however, they represent a very small percentage of the population. That's the problem. All these people want the end result without understanding what went into it. 

I've seen many young horses unsound because of all the strain that the local trainers put on them to get them show ready. How else can you get a 2 year old to do all that stuff without pushing them. If the reining futurity is for 3 year olds then I stand corrected; however, 3 is still very young.

I'm afraid that I haven't observed these things at H/J shows. I have attended more dressage shows and when you ride a test it is required that you perform certain movements - end of story. So I haven't observed people in these shows not being able to do the things they need to. 

As was said before there is good and bad in all things in this world.


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## nrhareiner

Million Dollar Riders YEAR RIDER 1995 Bill Horn 1997 Tim McQuay 2003 Shawn Flarida 2003 Duane Latimer 2004 Todd Bergen 2005 Dell Hendricks 2005 Craig Schmersal 2006 Andrea Fappani 2006 Tom McCutcheon 2007 Mandy McCutcheon 2008 Brent Wright 2008 Craig Johnson 2008 Randy Paul 2010 Todd Sommers

Two Million Dollar Riders YEAR RIDER 2005 Tim McQuay 2006 Shawn Flarida 2010 Craig Schmersal 2010 Andrea Fappani 

Then there is Shawn who is a $4 Million $ rider.

What I have described is the norm that I have seen on about 15 years of breeding and showing NRHA reiners. Do bad trainers exist? Sure. Especially the ones who are not quite there and do not have access to some of the top trainers. Since we have so many of the top trainers live and ride in this area I get to see the best of the best.

The NRHA Futurity is at the end of Nov beginning of Dec of the horses 3yo year. There are NO classes in NRHA for 2yo horses. All aged events are limited to that age of horse.

If you look at the green/rookie/non pro and youth horses you will see a lot of horses well into their teens still showing.


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## TheLovedOne

Well then you're lucky you don't see any of the bad things. I still don't understand what million dollar rider means since there are no events with that kind of purse. It must mean life time winnings - I would assume. They should also list the life time expenses so that people can really come to understand the financial aspect of this.


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## nrhareiner

TheLovedOne said:


> Well then you're lucky you don't see any of the bad things. I still don't understand what million dollar rider means since there are no events with that kind of purse. It must mean life time winnings - I would assume. They should also list the life time expenses so that people can really come to understand the financial aspect of this.


Million $$ riders is what the rider earns in NRHA Sanctioned shows.

What is the out lay for the trainer? $0. Typically how it works is that the owner pays the entry fees and all expenses. Then the purse is split 50% after all expenses are paid. When a you say a rider is a million or a $4 million $$ rider it is what was won not what was made. 

NRHA futurity guarantees $125K to the winner. This class is a $100K added with 10% retained.. Most NRHA affiliate level classes are anywhere from $500 added to $2K added with 50% retained.

When you look at what a rider has earned you need to look at many things. Shawn has won over $4 Million. However most of that is from aged events (Cat 2 and 6) where the purse money is much much higher. Some trainers earnings are in Cat 1 where the purse money is much smaller. So a trainer who say has $70K in Cat 1 earnings can be just as good of a trainer as one who has $750K in Cat 2/6 earnings as the purse is much larger and the money is won faster.

Typically if you have a good horse you can go home with more money then you left with. This has been my experience most of the time.


Also I am not saying there are no bad trainers or riders. NRHA goes out of their way to stop it when it shows up. EVERY horse EVERY run MUST drop bridle to the judge. The judge will walk the entire horse and look at ever inch of the horse. If there is so much as a scratch on the horse the horse/rider is DQed. IF a trainer/rider is seen abusing a horse they are reported to NRHA and the incident WILL be investigated and the person can and will be suspended if warranted. I have seen it happen even with some top riders.


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## maura

Nope, sorry, that's an incorrect generalization about English and Western riders, at least based on my area and my experience. 

Training is training, basic submission is basic submission. 

I expect my horses to stand quietly tied, or stand quietly on the trailer. I preferred not to get stalls at shows as it greatly adds to the expense. 

From foxhunting and trailriding, I expect my horses to stand quietly when tied, for hours if need be. I once tied my horse to a tree during a foxhunt, while I administered first aid to a rider on the ground. After the ambulance left, I remounted and found hounds. 

When a boarder's horse learned to lean back and break crossties, etc, I insisted that the horse be sent to a trainer and be retaught to tie. (Yes, I could have done it myself, but she was a nervous sort of pet owner, and I would have had a hard time doing it at my barn without a lot of drama.)

A horse that won't tie is a nuisance, period. Handwalking the horse all day or getting a stall that you wouldn't otherwise because the horse won't tie is allowing the horse to train you. 

English and Western have nothing to do with it.


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## Alwaysbehind

maura said:


> Nope, sorry, that's an incorrect generalization about English and Western riders, at least based on my area and my experience.
> 
> Training is training, basic submission is basic submission.
> 
> I expect my horses to stand quietly tied, or stand quietly on the trailer. I preferred not to get stalls at shows as it greatly adds to the expense.
> 
> From foxhunting and trailriding, I expect my horses to stand quietly when tied, for hours if need be.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> A horse that won't tie is a nuisance, period. Handwalking the horse all day or getting a stall that you wouldn't otherwise because the horse won't tie is allowing the horse to train you.
> 
> English and Western have nothing to do with it.


This!



nrhareiner said:


> Ex: One circuit I shoot and have for years. 99% of the horses (in both the H/J and the HUS) do not have a flying lead change. Even the ones I have been shooting for 5+ years still have not flying lead change. Among other problems I do not see at the shows that I show at. Although there are other shows I shoot that have both western and English classes and you will see some of the same things there too. However those are mostly kids.


This sounds like a very scary poor example of a hunter circuit. 



nrhareiner said:


> The shows I shoot are rated level state shows. I know that is not the top level but a lot of the horses/riders also show at A rated shows and still have no lead change.


I highly doubt they show at A rated hunter shows with out a good lead, if they do they are showing in the non-rated classes and still not placing well.
I love the jab about all the horses that have a lead were formerly western horses.
Sigh.

My old man was originally trained as a western horse. They backed him to start showing as a 2yo in western classes.
When I bought him at 5 he had no lead change. They actually had him so unbalanced from trying to get him to be a peanut roller that loping/cantering was next to impossible. 
It took a full year to undo what those amazing western trainers had done to him.
Now, as an English hunter horse he has a lovely lead change and will stand tied to wherever I want to tie him all day long*. (Note, he did not come to me with tieing thing either. Something else us horrible English people taught him.)

It is hard for me to believe that someone with as much true knowledge as you have (reiner) would be pushing such a short sighted stereotype.


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## Sarahandlola

Why is there always a big conflict with english and western! English riders are not snobby and they do train their horses properly. One thing that annoys me is that western people say all english people do is ride around in circles...Sorry for bringing that up but it annoys the heck outta me..

And that is the only reason I get so defensive and attack western riding. Even though I would really like to try it some day =D


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## maura

No horse places in a rated division at a USEF hunter show without clean lead changes. Very few pin in the unrated divisions of USEF without them either. Breed shows, I can't say, I have little to no experience with breed show hunters. 

Local rated and unrated hunter shows, you can get away with a late change behind and still pin. Or a cranky change, with pinned ears and some tail wringing, if the rest of the class is weak and your trip was good. 

Crossfiring? Only if the judge is blind. 

Clean, whole *automatic* changes are pretty much a requirement to show USEF hunters. I was once told my otherwise lovely horse wasn't an ammy owner horse because I had to set him up and ask for the change (a clean, whole change); and I was probably told correctly - the expectation for an ammy horse is auto changes, no matter what.


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## Alwaysbehind

Sarahandlola said:


> And that is the only reason I get so defensive and attack western riding.


The sad part here is, no one was attacking western riding. 
For some reason a few of the western riders here feel only western riders know anything and they are shoving it down our throats. But no one was attacking western riding.

I believe most of us here know that there are great english riders and great western riders and bad english riders and bad western riders and the vast majority of us people in between who are average riders.

Some english riders let their horses act like jerks. Some western riders let their horses act like jerks.


ETA:


maura said:


> No horse places in a rated division at a USEF hunter show without clean lead changes. Very few pin in the unrated divisions of USEF without them either. Breed shows, I can't say, I have little to no experience with breed show hunters.
> 
> Local rated and unrated hunter shows, you can get away with a late change behind and still pin. Or a cranky change, with pinned ears and some tail wringing, if the rest of the class is weak and your trip was good.
> 
> Crossfiring? Only if the judge is blind.
> 
> Clean, whole *automatic* changes are pretty much a requirement to show USEF hunters. I was once told my otherwise lovely horse wasn't an ammy owner horse because I had to set him up and ask for the change (a clean, whole change); and I was probably told correctly - the expectation for an ammy horse is auto changes, no matter what.


Love you Maura!

And you are so freaking right.

The busy local hunter show series in my neck of the woods if you have no lead change you get no ribbons, period.

And so right about an ammy horse lead change. They do them on their own. (Love my horse and his auto lead change.)


I think breed shows (or the ones that I have watched, mainly appy) a sloppy lead change can still get your ribbons. They seem to like scary things in those classes.


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## Sarahandlola

Maybe because they are more into natural horsemanship and all of that...Wait that gets me thinking is there any natural horsemanship trainer who is an english rider. Like I know Monty Roberts and all of them are western...


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## TheLovedOne

Natural Horsemanship has nothing to do with it. There are lots of english and western riders that are natural horseman. 

I do agree I've never seen all these claimed lead problems at H/J or dressage shows. 

I do not see H/J or dressage people tying there horses or ponying other horses. I think that the eventers are different and do tie etc but I've not gone to any XC events.


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## TheLovedOne

nrhareiner said:


> IF a trainer/rider is seen abusing a horse they are reported to NRHA and the incident WILL be investigated and the person can and will be suspended if warranted. I have seen it happen even with some top riders.


This is good and I'm glad to hear it. The fact that you actually saw someone get disqualified tells me that bad stuff is still happening. People still talk about the torture pit at these events.

Honestly I'm still confused over the million dollar rider thing but that's OK we can just leave it at that.


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## nrhareiner

Alwaysbehind said:


> This!
> 
> 
> This sounds like a very scary poor example of a hunter circuit.
> 
> 
> I highly doubt they show at A rated hunter shows with out a good lead, if they do they are showing in the non-rated classes and still not placing well.
> 
> *The ones I know that show A rated do fairly well. *
> 
> I love the jab about all the horses that have a lead were formerly western horses.
> Sigh.
> 
> *Not a jab. Just a fact of what is around this area.*
> 
> My old man was originally trained as a western horse. They backed him to start showing as a 2yo in western classes.
> When I bought him at 5 he had no lead change. They actually had him so unbalanced from trying to get him to be a peanut roller that loping/cantering was next to impossible.
> It took a full year to undo what those amazing western trainers had done to him.
> Now, as an English hunter horse he has a lovely lead change and will stand tied to wherever I want to tie him all day long*. (Note, he did not come to me with tieing thing either. Something else us horrible English people taught him.)
> 
> *Will not go into my opinion of WP horses or how they are trained. *
> 
> It is hard for me to believe that someone with as much true knowledge as you have (reiner) would be pushing such a short sighted stereotype.


Not a stereotype. It is what I see after many many years shooting a lot of H/J and Dressage shows. Talking to the trainers and owners of the horses who are showing in these shows. I can not speak to shows in other areas of the country b/c there is no set association that I have seen that regulates these shows.


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## HollyBubbles

> It is the British / Aussie term for a trailer to haul horses. A truck is a lorie or some such thing


Yeah that's it  but in NZ the truck is still a truck, actually I have to look twice when I hear someone say lorrie :lol:


-And as for the english vs western thing.. I ride english and still expect my horses to stand tied up properly when they get tied up. I don't just go out and hire a stall unless I'm not allowed to tie to the float (show ground rules)
-I also expect them to behave well for anybody who is near them, no exceptions, and big trouble if they misbehave.


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## Hunterjumper7654

I have a western horse and will be looking for an English horse as well. Every English horse i've ridden can stand tied and has a clean flying change and the young ones have a great simple change. My western horse can stand till the cows come home and I don't own cows. He also has a very nice flying change. People are people not English riders and Western riders, everyone does something wrong or something others consider wrong but to group those people into a stereotype those people is wrong.


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## maura

nrha - I am curious as to what part of the country you're seeing this in; and what type of hunter shows. There are 'A' rated _breed _shows that are not actually USEF rated hunter shows but rated breed shows with hunter divisions and there are shows with unrated divisions or lower rated USEF divisions. 

Now, my part of Virginia is considered hunter country, and some of the best rated hunter shows in the country are a couple of hours or less away - Warrenton, Upperville, Middleburg, Rosemount, Deep Run and the Washington International. 

In years and years of hunter showing, I never saw anything like what you are describing. In our extremely local, informal Wednesday night schooling show series, I was shocked to be called back for a ribbon in a 3' class with a blown change/late change behind. So shocked I was loading the horse up when called. It must have been a really weak class. 

So I really am curious as to where and when you're seeing an A-rated hunter division, not in a breed show, where a horse pins with blown changes or late changes, let alone crossfiring.


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## Cherie

It is the jumpers in the H/J shows where I have seen the bad lead changes and the cross-firing, and they are not small shows. I have not ridden any hunter or jumper classes in 30 years and have not seen an A rated show in 10 -- there are only a couple in OKC and a couple in Tulsa that I even know of.

I watch a lot of the BIG international shows on HRTV. I watched a World Cup event last night -- held in France last winter, I believe. One of the the American horses cross-fired about 1/4 of the course. These are World class horses on 5' + courses. I used to go to the big A rated A to Z show in Phoenix every winter, the A rated shows in Salt Lake City and in Denver. I saw entire championship jumping classes where nearly every horse cross-fired at some point in their class.

Obviously, the hunter divisions of these H/J shows is not that way as it is judged rather than scored. I field hunted 30 and 40 years ago, did some point to points but rode mostly jumpers and then stopped showing and just sold started prospects. I started standing stallions and could not do both -- run a stallion station and be on the show circuit. I quit riding them, but I still like to watch them and critique what they are doing.


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## BlueEyedBeauty

I happen to be just another pro for a horse that can stand tied for a long time. 

One of the greatest feelings in the world was the day my horse would stand ground tied while I danced and ran and acted like an idiot all over the 200 by 400 ft arena.


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## nrhareiner

I am on Ohio and Mi area. There are several A rates shows and not breed shows. There is also the OHJA and the MHJA. A lot of the people who show in these classes are placing and do not have a lead change. Some are just really really nice jumpers and movers. One who does have a very very nice lead change is a Gypsy vanner and he does quite well at these shows. Not so much rated shows but the OHJA shows. 

At one point for many years I was shooting about 50-60 shows a summer. Most H/J shows and Dressage shows. So I have seen a lot of horses over the years.


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## TheLovedOne

Is it not weird to have a Gypsy Vanner at a H/J show?


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## Countrylady1071

Thats what I was thinking, TLO! i thought gypsies were a draft type horse..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maura

Cherie,

That makes a little more sense. While I agree that incomplete changes and crossfiring indicate a poor foundation and poor schooling, in a jumper class, it has absolutely no effect on scoring. I'm surprised that a horse with incomplete changes or that cross fires is fast enough to place in a jumper class, but since the scoring is just on faults and time, the attitude may be if they're fast enough to win, who cares about going back and fixing the changes? Unfortunate, but probably the attitude. 

Perhaps we're having a failure to communicate over the term hunter/jumper, which I've always disliked, and with separating the two very distinct disciplines? I'm talking about hunters over fences and on the flat, NOT jumpers.

nhra, I can only conclude from what you've said that either you're refering to jumpers, not hunters and/or that the OHJA and MHJA are not terribly competitive circuits.

A Gypsy Vanner pinning in a hunter class is a good indication that's the case. While technically a hunter can be any breed, Vanners are certainly not "to type" and do not have the style and way of going expected. I can't imagine one pinning in this area, no matter how cute a jumper, except perhaps in an unrated division like Schooling Hunter with a sympathetic judge.


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## traildancer

nrhareiner--what do you mean when you write "shoot"? I thought at first you were in to mounted shooting, but later posts didn't seem to fit what little I know about that event.


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## nrhareiner

I am a professional Photographer. I shoot a lot of different type of events over the years.


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## Azale1

I have no problem in teaching a horse to stand tied for long periods of time as long as they have access to food and water. It teaches them patience and comes in handy more times than you would think.


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