# "Rollkur" in a western saddle?



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

So here's the thing, I've been hanging around a new barn as a favor to my trainer. And I've noticed a TON of people riding their reining horses with their heads tucked to their chests.

Now I have ridden many a reining horse in my life and have asked them to keep themselves arched, framed up, and broken at the poll. But I don't ask them to go behind the vertical there. 

I guess I'm a little frustrated, because if they had been riding in an english saddle they would have gotten nailed for it. But it seems the trainer at this barn doesn't care, and is in fact encouraging it! I'm supposed to report back "What I learned" from this experience to my own trainer tomorrow. Well I'll have a lot to say and mixed feelings, because this trainer did in fact teach me a lot of helpful things and she helped me with some of my horses problems, but I am concerned about this.

Why do people think that kind of headset is okay for reining horses too? Is there something I'm missing? Someone care to enlighten me or join in my frustration? These horses were biting their chests.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I think it's to get them to keep in frame when NOT being over ridden or in draw reins or training fork. I know my trainer tends to ride tightly like that so that when we're at a show and the horse isn't being hauled in, he'll keep more vertical as he should, rather than nose out. I don't like it but he does tend to carry himself properly at the shows after being ridden that way.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I'm afraid it is quite the latest fashion. I don't like it at all, but most the industry's leading trainers have demonstrated that they can ride the pattern from start to finish with no contact. They have also shown that some horses can keep their heads way down low and behind vertical while keeping their shoulders up. Thus, you see the horses that can round up into a ball, slide 30 feet and do it with their chins about 1 foot off of the ground. I think it is really bizarre, but for the horses that can do it, they are winning with that look.

So many of the World Champion reining trainers are located near me. I watch guys like Craig Schmersal and a lot of the yoing horses are naturally very low headed. It is the way they are made and is natural for them. Then, you see them winning and it seems like a lot of the trainers work very hard to make every horse look like the low headed ones. 

This style actually started with Boomernic. He could round up into a ball and stop better than anything anyone had seen before. So, everybody tried to make their horses look like him.

Then, as reining got more and more competitive, the challenge was to get a horse to hold their carriage with no rein pressure throughout the entire class. They now have half the horses in a finals of any big reining where there is no rein contact during the entire pattern. They go fast to slow circles, run-downs and every stop and even the back-up on a completely loose rein. 

They went from 'not wanting to see any resistance' to 'not wanting to even see any contact'. To 'intimidate' a horse that much, they train and ride every day with their horses folded up.

What you see is more and more 'flunk-outs' that will not take the constant intimidation and constant pressure -- particularly if they are not bred to carry themselves that way. Pretty soon, no one will breed a good mare to a horse that every lifted his head in the show-ring. This is what the pleasure horse breeders have done. 

We have gotten so sick of seeing the super-low heads that we have decided to just breed for reined cowhorses. They still want them to look up through the bridle. The current reiners could not see which way the cow went while they are staring at the ground. Husband will not even go to to watch a big reining any more. 

You see trainers riding with illegal bits in the training and warm-up rings. Bits that have 11 and 12 inch shanks and 4 inch high ports to keep their horses intimidated out of lifting their heads. Then, they switch to a legal bit to go into the show-ring.

So, what you are seeing at the training stable is what they put the horses through to get the 2 minutes in the ring where the horse does not lift his head. The pleasure trainers do the same thing. 

Last year, there was big stink in Europe when the trainers were riding in the training ring with their horses all 'folded up' and constantly jerking on the reins. Someone put up a video of Craig Schmersal riding like that and he ended up going to court to get the videos taken down. We are hoping that the international standards will dictate a better head carriage -- but it sure has not up until now.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

If this link will work, it shows the reining practice pen in Sweden where Craig was filmed 'schooling' his horse. 




If you google Schmersal abuse, you can get several of these.

It is sad when trainers think that in order win, they have to intimidate a horse into not lifting its head and looking out through the bridle.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You know, they can say this is abuse but really....Isn't the bratty horse that has no contact and runs through the bit more abused? It more likely will end up neglected or on a truck bound for the meat packers before that mare. She did her run, scored high & kept her head down. She will go on to have a good life.


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## 2BigReds (Oct 7, 2011)

Cherie, I entirely agree that reiners' heads are too low nowadays. It's flat out unsafe, IMHO, to have a horse's head that low in a high speed event. Shoot, even in pleasure classes! One of these days a horse is going to put a foot through a rein and all hell will break loose... That is if it hasn't happened already. I won't allow to tips of my gelding's ears to be lower than his withers. I don't want his head up high either, but I'd like it to stay level enough to be controlled while still safe.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

2BigReds said:


> Cherie, I entirely agree that reiners' heads are too low nowadays. It's flat out unsafe, IMHO, to have a horse's head that low in a high speed event. Shoot, even in pleasure classes! *One of these days a horse is going to put a foot through a rein and all hell will break loose... That is if it hasn't happened already.* I won't allow to tips of my gelding's ears to be lower than his withers. I don't want his head up high either, but I'd like it to stay level enough to be controlled while still safe.


 
Actually that happened at a show this year but it was in one of the gaming warmup arenas. Someone was just doing barrels or something for points, had their WP in long barrel reins, the horse stepped right through the thing and yes, it was definately a pretty bad accident. I thank god sometimes that the WP riders are in split reins, because at least then they are long enough that even if they do step through and pull back they won't be totally stuck.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't know if that video will generat the storm this time that it did before.
I find it hard to watch. My neck hurts just watching that very, very unhappy horse. It's immature of me to think this, but I secretly want the horse to buck him off!


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## CurlyIsASpecialStandie (Jul 19, 2011)

tinyliny - i also share that thought :S


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Ack. I hadn't seen that video before now. He disgusts me. I especially love the quote about not trying to "damage" his reputation... Because the footage speaks for itself, and no one could make him look any worse than he makes himself look.

However. It is important to remember that in EVERY discipline there are people who will put the ribbon before the horse. They will do whatever it takes to win, and often their horse's welfare suffers because of their drive. Ambition is not a bad thing, but to put your partner second to the goal is disgusting. 

We have to remember not to tar all reiners with the "omg you're cruel" brush. Just like all dressage riders should not suffer from the rolkur hatred. And we, as fair and true horse people, should use videos like this to remind ourselves of the true prize - a harmony between horse and rider, no matter the discipline.


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## horseluver50 (Mar 19, 2009)

From what I see in the video, I would call it abuse, and I can't see how anyone could do that to their horse.
That is extremely uncomfortable for the horse to have their head bent like that, and they know that if they put their head out, they will be punished and be forced to bring it in again. 
My neck hurts just watching that video, and I feel extremely bad for that poor horse :[
The people that do this, obviously have no empathy or thoughts to how their horse might feel.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

waresbear said:


> You know, they can say this is abuse but really....Isn't the bratty horse that has no contact and runs through the bit more abused? It more likely will end up neglected or on a truck bound for the meat packers before that mare. She did her run, scored high & kept her head down. She will go on to have a good life.


Part of me agrees, since I prefer to use abuse to describe something more physically harmful. However, it is a false dichotomy to suggest the choice is between a horse that doesn't respond to a bit, and one that is made to run around with its chin at its chest.

I don't understand the fascination with headset. It seems to me a horse can figure out well enough where it needs to see for a given speed & task, and should be allowed to place its head in response. I see no harm in momentarily overriding it, based on your knowledge of what you are about to ask the horse to do, but I don't understand the mentality that wants to rule every movement of the horse's body.

I don't mind asking the horse to do something he doesn't want to do. I do that every time I ride. If I didn't, I could just climb on his back and he would magically do everything I imagined, just like in a Disney film. But sometimes, when things click, I'll finish the ride and the horse will give me a look as if to say, "I was good, wasn't I? Wanna cigarette?" My mare is the most expressive of the three, and she will get a 'silly grin' look to her.

That is what gives me a thrill in riding - when we've connected, and the horse is trying to work with me while I'm trying to work with him/her, and we are two very different species doing it together. Or when the horse perks up, and you can feel the excitement in his body because we're about to do something he considers fun.

The horse in the video may be fairly content, like mine is when we work on trotting around cones. He doesn't LIKE the cone work, but he is content enough to do it because I've asked him to and he knows it won't last forever. The difference, to me, is that the cone work ultimately works to the horse's benefit. It is like my jogging, which sometimes is painful but ultimately helps me do better. < / rant >


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

horseluver50 said:


> ...That is extremely uncomfortable for the horse to have their head bent like that, and they know that if they put their head out, they will be punished and be forced to bring it in again...


My Appy finds it very uncomfortable to canter on a right lead. Even if I get him started on a right lead, he often switches in a few strides to his left lead. The work I'm doing to get him looser and more flexible so he can canter on a right lead isn't fun for him, any more than jogging uphill is fun for me.

I don't understand WANTING your horse to run around with his chin at his chest, but I'm not sure it bothers the horse a whole lot more than many of the other things we ask horses to do. There are not many horses who, if left to their own choice, would jump a 5' fence or do dressage or, in my case, trot in tight circles around cones.

The video may look weird to me, but I think horses find most of what we ask them to do kind of weird. I just try to mix up a few minutes of weird stuff with a few minutes of something they enjoy.


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## 2BigReds (Oct 7, 2011)

bsms I think you're right on the dot. My horse hates loping under saddle, but he needs to learn how to balance it somehow. He also hates downward transitions-he'd rather sit his butt down and stop than simply slow down to a walk or jog, but if I let him do what he wanted, he'd end up with arthritis in his hind end pretty darn quick. He also used to hate being tied alone, but now he's figured out that nobody is going to come eat him, so he stands nicely.

To me, these all seem like reasonable tasks to ask your horse to learn. To Schmersal a nose to the chest for reasons that I don't understand seems reasonable. I don't understand it or agree with it, but bsms is right that we ask our horses to do things they don't want to do on a regular basis.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Ugh. That pretty much all there is to say. 
People are stupid.
I feel sorry for that horse. 
It makes me cringe. 
I'd rather have my horse's head up in the air, with zero roundness than have the horse look like it's trying to stick it's head between it's legs. 
At least it's natural for horses to have their heads up.
But whatever. Each to their own I guess. I'd rather have my horse look "untrained" with her nose sticking out than what was demonstrated in that video.
But whatevs. People will do whatever they can to win. As I said. People are stupid. (It's part of my life motto: _People are stupid; dont trust them_)


What's on that horses knee?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

QHriderKE said:


> Ugh. That pretty much all there is to say.
> People are stupid.
> I feel sorry for that horse.
> It makes me cringe.
> ...


 
I hope you find yourself rethinking that motto as you live your life. It will color your life in an ugly way, I fear.

I do agree that that that video shows more than just working a horse and making him do something he doesn't want to do, like canter on a right lead or whatever training thing your horse dislikes.
You work with your horse to try and make these things easier for him. But constant yanking on a curb bit, for nearly every choice the horse can make, will really sour him. He has to know that there an "easy and good" place to be. And that rider made that place so small and so hard to be in that the horse was in a nearly lose-lose situation. You want to work toward making it a win-win situation for your horse. That horse looked really misearable to me. I can see no joy there, only slavishness.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

This guy is doing it too. Must be that **** Craig Schmersal again.....Oh wait, it's Clinton Anderson. Nevermind it's ok


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

At least CA isn't snapping the reins repeatedly . He's quiet when Mindy is in the right place and I see a fair amount of loop in the reins, at least much of the time. The horse is pulled back a lot, but she gets a release that is at least logical.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> At least CA isn't snapping the reins repeatedly . He's quiet when Mindy is in the right place and I see a fair amount of loop in the reins, at least much of the time. The horse is pulled back a lot, but she gets a release that is at least logical.


That's because Clinton's putting on a demonstration. Of course he doesn't do it at one of his clinics where people paid to see it. Craig's tuning on his horse before a class probably. Watch him in a class "under the lights" and he has slack in the reins too.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

This is the point I always try to make with people who think NH trainers are God. They are no different than any good trainer. They just explain their techniques and sugar-coat them until you believe it's okay. 

I'm not even a Craig Schmershal fan. But I respect what he can do. And unlike most of the people that are posting here, I admit I will probably never reach the level he's at. I don't think anybody can argue they're doing the same thing to their horses. Clinton is just an awesome communicator with people.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I do not think NH trainers are God, least of all CA. I don't care for his methods, but I can only make that judgement based on a very small slice of observing him. Even smaller for Craig S. From what I saw, Mindy is the happier horse, by far. The other horse was being literally pulled off balance in its stops. One of these days, it looks like the horse could just flip **** over teakettle.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The biggest objection I have to the C S video and all the others that snatch and jerk like he does is that they are severely punishing the horse's mouth by not taking the slack out of the reins before they jerk or pull. I think you can pulll about as hard as you want if the slack is out first. I know that 'over-correcting' is how you get a horse to not just keep doing something over and over and over. It is the incentive to keep the horse honest.

What I object to is trying to hurt a horse enough, that is not naturally bred to be that low headed, to make him want to carry his head that low. A low head is natural for some horse. For others, it is absolutely not a natural way to go. It is simply a matter of 'intimidation'. The pleasure horse trainers do the exact same thing. The judges committee made a ruling last year that horses doing a 'walk-in' pattern would be judged from the moment they came through the gate. Previously, they were judged after they faced the judge's stand and got ready to do their first spin or lope departure. Now they are judged from the moment they come through the gate. This ruling was made because trainers had gotten so bad about snatching and jerking their horses when they were walking from the gate to the center of the ring. 

There are Association representatives present at the big events in the warm-up rings now (since this CS video was posted) that are supposed to stop and report trainers that are jerking their horses so hard that it can be called abuse. 

There have also been proposals made that equipment that is illegal to show in should not be used in the warm-up and training pens. This is how NCHA cuttings are run. No training equipment allowed in the warm-up or practice pens. [So trainers just haul off the grounds to 'work' at somebody's ranch that is close by. Then they can jerk and spur and hammer them all they want.]


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I do not think NH trainers are God, least of all CA.


I know you don't Tiny. The comments were made for people that think NH trainers do no wrong. I was just making a point that I make all the time. These NH guys are simply using common techniques that are used by reining trainers and others. They just explain the reason behind their tactics and say, "This makes the horse happy. You can do it too, here's how!" 

IT'S NOT WHAT YOU DO, IT'S HOW YOU PRESENT IT. If a guy seems like a nice guy, people think he's nice to horses too. Clinton Anderson's horses ride the same way as Craig's do. Somebody posted a video that's all over the internet that's edited and made Craig look bad. I picked the first video that I saw of Clinton Anderson riding. And their horses go virtually the same. 

Maybe Clinton can get those results without the snatching, maybe not. But I can assure you that if he does it, you'll never see it. 

I don't ride like that, but I'm not going to accuse these men of abuse. Both are at the top of their game. It's just that the reining trainers don't try to BS anyone. 

Here's one of my horses practicing "ROLLKUR" by hisself.


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

While I will say first and foremost that I am not condoning the heavy handed riding that a lot of today's big name reining trainers seem to be favoring, I would like to interject one thing. Confirmation. The vast majority of reiners are built level if not down hill, rather than up like sport horses are, and this includes their neck set. An average reining horse that is low at the poll and behind the vertical is not as tightly curled as a horse with an uphill build in the same position. 

This is not a training method I like or use, but I know that the little pleasure gelding I used to have would quickly go into that over curled frame, with nary a complaint or strain, if I did not put a lot of effort into pushing him out into the bridle. The mare I had at the time was more uphill and her natural position with the same balance of aids would do a lovely long and low.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Mystery, the issue is not the horse being curled IMO. The issue, for me, is the constant punishment for a horse that is clearly trying to please her rider.


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## StarfireSparrow (Jan 19, 2009)

Chiilaa, I agree. I admit that I only skimmed most of the posts after the first few and was mostly replying to the OP. 

As for the punishment when they are trying, I actually got a chance spend a little time at the farm a big name based here in NC a few years ago and watched him bloody a horse's mouth, ribs and flanks because the horse would not spin fast enough or stop deep enough to suit him. It was late summer of that horses 2yo year. This person won one of the NRHA's highest awards and in the same magazine there they published his award, they also posted his 6 month suspension for abuse in the back. To me, if they had to suspend him, he should not have gotten the award.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Maybe the association's judges should stop pinning these overly collected horses, ya think?


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

waresbear said:


> Maybe the association's judges should stop pinning these overly collected horses, ya think?


This is exactly what needs to happen....I've seen horses give harder slides and correct, fast spins with their heads in the air. It makes me wonder how long it'll be before they have to develop a rule about this headset issue.

The problem being, a lot of these judges are seeing nothing wrong with being behind the vertical, chin to chest.


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