# How to fix kicking while handling hind feet



## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

I have a 4 year old gelding who was untouched for most of his life. The first time he had his feet done was as a 4 year old (back in april) and his feet were tied up to do it because neither I nor the farrier had time to work with him properly and they badly needed done before i moved and took him with me. No good, I know, but on the other hand I've seen many horses have their feet tied up for their first trims with no ill effects so I wasn't worried about it. He had kicked at the longe whip in thhe roundpen a couple times before so I knew he wouldn't hesitate to use his back feet.

Fast forward 2 months. He has had his feet done by a farrier again (no ropes), but farrier was unable to do one of his back feet. The person who has been working with him has been playing with his feet and though he is still a bit nervous he will pick up his fronts and even his backs (last time I tried the backs he gave a halfhearted kick at me). He has kicked the other lady twice 

What do I do?? He is QUICK with those feet and I don't want to get hurt. If it were my dad I know he'd tie his hinds up and make him get used to it. Trim them while he's tied up again. I would like to solve the problem through working with him but he has proven to be unpredictable with those hinds and, again, I don't want to get kicked. Like I said, he has been worked with for 2 months now. He is a big, solid guy lol. I'm tempted to tie them up so even if he tries all he's doing is fighting himself. I'd love any other suggestions!
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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

This may sound a little bit cruel, but whenever he even _acted_ like he wanted to shoot a foot at me, he'd be getting his butt worked off instantly. If he actually swung or made contact, he'd get his *** beat and _then_ get it worked off.

Immediately after the correction, go right back and try to pick the foot up again. If he swings again, do it all over. If you are able, even once, to walk up and have him pick up the foot at all without swinging, give him a scratch and call it a day.

Of course, if you're not really comfortable doing this (there is a very real possiblity of getting kicked repeatedly LOL), I'd go ahead and go with tying his feet up.

There is another thread where I discussed something...hold on, let me find it.


ETA: Here it is, where I discuss a set of homemade "stocks" so that you can pull the feet in any direction you need them.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/picking-up-feet-217610/#post2903130


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I assume a big, soft cotton 'Scotch rope' was used to tie up his feet? That is what you need to get him used to having his feet handled; just stop short of tying a hind foot up.

Use the big soft rope to get him used to having them rubbed on. Get him used to having the big rope between his hind legs with you standing back far enough to be safe. Do not get after him for kicking. Just stay with it and out-last him. Take all of the pressure off when he does not fight it.

Then, use the big rope to come up behind his fetlock to bring his foot forward, take it off of the ground, and then pick his foot up with it. When he is relaxed, rub his leg and lift it up out of the Scotch rope and set it back down. Even bad kickers can be taught with the rope to willingly pick up their hoof, let you rub it, walk it back and set in on your knee and then let you set it back down. Do a little more with it each time you pick it up with the rope and be sure you take it out of the rope and set it down when he is relaxed and being good.

We have two big, soft, 25 foot cotton Scotch ropes. We use them to teach every horse to let us handle their hind feet. I am too arthritic, stiff and move waaay too slow to handle hind feet any other way. It is so much better to use this method than to have horses learn that they can take a foot away from you. Actually, we find it much more difficult to teach un-handled and spoiled horses to let us have their front feet and keep them up.


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## tlkng1 (Dec 14, 2011)

smrobs suggestion is good and is a fairly standard technique of some of the horse trainers out there. When he kicks out, work him hard...a lot of changes of direction, keep him moving...make him look at getting his feet picked up as a chance to rest. It may take a few tries but eventually he is going to get the point that standing and having his feet picked up is much easier than being winded, hot and sweaty.


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## Jore (Dec 4, 2010)

Agreeing with a couple others here.

Indie was absolutely horrible about letting me wrap her hind legs when I first brought her home. I could spend over half an hour trying to get just one on and the only thing that taught her to keep still, was that I never gave up. 

With horses that try kicking, I just get them moving... that's actually my solution for quite a few issues and it usually works well.


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

Thanks everyone! I've actually never had to deal with a kicker so was a bit miffed. I like Cherie's thought of just sticking it out rather than getting after him - any other horse I'd have no problem smacking or running around if they kicked but this guy is already a nervous dude and I don't want to lose what trust has already been gained. I do think he is kicking out of nervousness rather than dominance. Glad there were some suggestions that didn't involve making him fear for his life (cause last time he did that he jumped an arena fence and smashed through another solid wood one lol)
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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

Smrobs I like your idea of the panels and will definitely use that at some point in the future. Right now though I'm boarding and have limited facilities (no panels) and am suuuuuper broke at the moment lol (chasing a line of work that makes no money, silly me)
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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

With this horse, I'm going to disagree with making her move. She needs to be desensitized more to being touched there. If the horse was previously good and started kicking, then I would agree to making her move. 

When we got Harley, he had to have his legs tie to a pole or tree to trim his back legs. I started with tossing a lead rope at his rear legs. If he kicked or moved, I kept tossing it. If he stood still and relaxed, I would quit, rub his side and let him stand for a while before trying again. Once he stood still with the rope, I would rub his back and slowly work my way to his rear. Approach and retreat, slowly working farther back and down his leg. Once I could touch around his hoof with no reaction, I looped a rope around it. Standing straight out from his hip to the side, I pulled on the rope to get him to lift. If you stand forward of his hip and he kicks back, you could get rope burn or have the rope pulled from you. Standing to the rear, you could have a good chance of being kicked. To the side, you can keep pressure on without getting pulled around. Once he quits kicking, I released the pressure. With practice and patience, he started to lift his hoof before I even asked for him to lift it.
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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

I have a lot of luck with this technique, get a stout white cotton rope AND A HELMET!!!! Start by looping the rope around his feet, one hand on either side of the rope. This is important, *you hold either end* . if he starts kicking out drop the rope and get the heck outta the way! When he is used to that and doesn't twitch, start pulling it snug against the foot. Same scenario, if he kicks drop it and get out of the way. Once he handles the pressure, start applying upward pressure until he lifts his foot, even if it is just a centimeter , and let it down. Slowly increase the height, until he is comfortable with it at trimming height. Then start on holding it there, as soon as he starts to act up set it down. Once he is comfortable with holding it for as long as you want at the height you want, start with your hands (this is where the helmet is important). This may take several sessions over several days, the key is steady, slow (as in glacial) progress, and making the horse feel comfortable and safe with his foot of the ground.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Actually, if you use a Scotch rope, you tie one end low around a horse's neck and only handle the other end well away from his kicking zone. My 2 Scotch ropes are 25 feet long and I have braided back a loop in one end of each. One is a 1 inch cotton rope that has been untwisted and rebraided in a soft 3-strand braid. The other is a 1 1/2 inch 'soft twist' rope.

I use a Scotch rope to 'sack out' every horse (while tied). It gets them used to having the big soft rope touch and flop around on them everywhere. You do not have to step back from a horse that has a 'come-apart'. You just stay right with them until they quit. THEN, you step back and take off the pressure.

I have done this with some really rank dangerous kickers and I outlasted them all. When they give it up, they have decided that it is OK and they are good with not kicking from then on. It works particularly well with high-strung reactive horses. Like tying one out, they find out it is easier to just settle down and be nice. With really serious kickers, I handle them very carefully for a good while. I ONLY tie up a hind leg (barely off of the ground) on viscous horses that are really trying to hurt someone. These horses are few and far between, thankfully. 

Horses learn to kick by having someone get scared and drop a foot and step back away from them. This the perfect way to teach a horse to kick. Anytime you take off pressure and step away from any horse, you are teaching them to do exactly what gets you to step back away from them.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Cherie said:


> Actually, if you use a Scotch rope, you tie one end low around a horse's neck and only handle the other end well away from his kicking zone..


 No, that is if *you *use a scotch rope. That is not how I do it.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Then you are doing something other than using a Scotch Hobble. Here is a photo of a Scotch rope just being used to pick up a foot.










Here is a photo of one used to Scotch Hobble the horse -- actually tie his hind leg up -- something I seldom do as they can fight this and hurt themselves. 










This is the same procedure described in the Calvary Manual on "How to Restrain a Fractious Horse".

I had watched old time horsemen use a Scotch Rope and a Scotch Hobble from about the age of 8 or 10. This is how they always used it. Most Scotch ropes either have a loop braided in the one end or are just tied around the horse's neck with a 'bowline' knot. Mine are thicker than most (to be safer and less chance of rope burns) so they are more difficult to tie and work easier with braided in loops.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Actually I never said scotch anything until you did, the only scotch I use is the single malt variety, I just use a 4 ft length of 2" cotton rope


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

OK -- I thought you were calling a short little rope a Scotch. Sorry.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

6gun Kid said:


> I have a lot of luck with this technique, get a stout white cotton rope AND A HELMET!!!! Start by looping the rope around his feet, one hand on either side of the rope. This is important, *you hold either end* . if he starts kicking out drop the rope and get the heck outta the way! When he is used to that and doesn't twitch, start pulling it snug against the foot. Same scenario, if he kicks drop it and get out of the way. Once he handles the pressure, start applying upward pressure until he lifts his foot, even if it is just a centimeter , and let it down. Slowly increase the height, until he is comfortable with it at trimming height. Then start on holding it there, as soon as he starts to act up set it down. Once he is comfortable with holding it for as long as you want at the height you want, start with your hands (this is where the helmet is important). This may take several sessions over several days, the key is steady, slow (as in glacial) progress, and making the horse feel comfortable and safe with his foot of the ground.


If this works for you, great. However, it shouldn't because you are rewarding or releasing pressure when the horse kicks. That actually tells the horse kicking is the correct response.
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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

usandpets said:


> If this works for you, great. However, it shouldn't because you are rewarding or releasing pressure when the horse kicks. That actually tells the horse kicking is the correct response.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're missing the point. This his how we teach a horse to allow it's back legs to be touched and handled. Just like a horse that doesn't like to be tied just needs to know its able to move to stand quietly, the horse that has had it's legs handled like this learns that the kicking is unnecessary. A great way to get hurt badly (both horse and human) is to use force and NOT release the leg when the horse kicks. The horse has to learn that that behavior is not necessary. 

Also, good luck keeping a hold of that leg if the horse really decides to kick and throw a fit. Having worked with violent kickers, this approach works much better and faster.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

palogal, you're right that I must be missing something. Like I said, releasing the pressure when the horse is kicking would tell the horse that kicking is the correct answer. Releasing the pressure when the horse stops kicking tells it that not kicking is correct. To each their own way. 

You are also right about trying to hold onto the leg when a horse is kicking. That is why I explained in my first post about tossing the rope at their leg. You could also use a stick with a string to keep yourself at a safe distance. You can keep tossing the rope at their leg and they can move around. When they stop moving and kicking, you quit tossing it. Once they get used to being touched with the rope, they don't kick as bad so you can hold the their leg with a rope looped around it. 

If your way works for you, great. 

Cherie, I've done something similar to thescotch rope idea. Instead of tying the rope around the neck, I just had it clipped to the halter.
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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

It's not about stopping the kicking it's about handling the feet. If you go about it slowly enough the horse most of the time will not kick. If they do, you get out of the way and start over without making a huge deal out of it.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

palogal said:


> It's not about stopping the kicking it's about handling the feet. If you go about it slowly enough the horse most of the time will not kick. If they do, you get out of the way and start over without making a huge deal out of it.


Isn't getting them to learn that kicking is unnecessary and getting them to stop kicking the same thing? I say purple and you say violet. I say burgundy and you say maroon. Different words but same thing. I do agree that they need to learn that they don't need to kick. I just disagree with your way of doing it. 

It has everything to do with them not kicking. You can't handle their hoof if they are kicking.
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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

usandpets said:


> *Isn't getting them to learn that kicking is unnecessary and getting them to stop kicking the same thing?* I say purple and you say violet. I say burgundy and you say maroon. Different words but same thing. I do agree that they need to learn that they don't need to kick. I just disagree with your way of doing it.
> 
> It has everything to do with them not kicking. You can't handle their hoof if they are kicking.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. It's not.
You don't teach a horse to tie by tying him tightly to a tree and waiting for him to stand nicely...unless you are willing to risk a broken neck. Same concept.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

palogal said:


> No. It's not.
> You don't teach a horse to tie by tying him tightly to a tree and waiting for him to stand nicely...unless you are willing to risk a broken neck. Same concept.


You also don't teach a horse to tie or give to pressure on their pole by dropping the rope and getting the heck out of the way when they pull back or rear. You DESENSITIZE them. No where did I say to tie their leg to let them figure it out or get them to stop kicking.
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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

OK you win. I'm done.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

It's not about winning. Please, just explain how dropping the rope which is releasing the pressure, and running away, teaches the horse that kicking is unnecessary. 

I'm sure you know that horses don't learn from pressure but instead the release of pressure. If they get a release by kicking, that just reinforces that they should kick.
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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

Just want say... Cherie, thank you for your advice. The photo you showed is the method my dad and grandpa always used, and one I use on any colt I start. Silly that it didn't cross my mind for training a kicker.

6gun, I do have to say that I
DON'T agree with letting the horse win when it comes to kicking, which your method seems to do, but if it works for you then that's great 
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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

Also.. I'm going to sound like the uneducated ******* here but how DO you teach a colt to tie other than tying em up and letting them figure it out??

That's how I learned to do it, and only ONCE remember seeing a broken neck (wild 6 year old Indian stud who got in with our mares when I was about 6). That's one out of many colts.. and, well, this wasnr even a colt.)
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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

When halter breaking a horse, you teach them to give to pressure up, down and to the side. That prepares them for being tied.
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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

That's the nice part about using the long Scotch rope. You completely desensitize the horse to having the rope touch all parts of its body and legs. You bring the rope around behind the horse's rump and smooch and the horse soon learns to step over away from the pressure. If he kicks, (seldom happens if you gradually desensitize them), you just hold your ground until he quits kicking and then give instant release. Even spoiled horses with a really bad reputation for kicking and hurting people figure out the release comes when they 'give' to the long rope. The whole time, you are in a safe place.

Only when the horse yields to the pressure of the rope and it totally OK with it touching him everywhere do you run it behind the fetlock and pull forward lifting the hind foot off of the ground. Then, you make sure you set it back down before he fusses at it. You pick it up for a longer time each time. Withing a few minutes, you can pick it up, rub it all over and lift it by hand out of the loop of the rope and set in down. 

The next time, most horses will just let the rope pick it up, you can start walking the foot back, set it on your knee for a short while and give it back to him. By the next time, you can pick it up without the rope. 

This method is so safe for both horses and handlers that we have not changed it any in 40 or 50 years. A horse shoeing school with very green students trim and shoe all of our horses. They never give them any trouble. I bring them there 10 head at a time and pick them up trimmed or shod. Different students handle them each time, so I guess the method is pretty fail-safe. Some students take all day to shoe one horse. They sure learn patience and do it all tied hard to a pipe rail in a big building on concrete with forges and big fans making a lot of noise. I seldom have to stay with them and hold or help with any of them.

For tying, if a horse is very well broke to lead it is usually very easy to get them to tie. I have not had any horses hurt themselves as long as they were tied to a place higher than their withers, preferably above their heads. I have horseshoes welded to the side of big oil tanks (15 and 20 feet tall and 12 foot in diameter). I run their lead-rope through a horseshoe and tie it off to a different one several feet away. That way, I can hold one by hand the first time it is tied (just take a wrap around the second horseshoe) and can always release one if I have to without cutting a rope or getting in front of one that is struggling.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

SnowCowgirl;2996842Tgso.. I'm going to sound like the uneducated ******* here but how DO you teach a colt to tie other than tying em up and letting them figure it out??
That's how I learned to do it said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_[/size]


There are lots of steps. The drag rope, breaking to lead, and then finally tying where you teach the horse that although his head is tied, he's not stuck. Once they learn they can move while tied, they don't want to and are very willing to stand quietly. Its not that a horse particularly wants to move around while tied, horses are lazy creatures, they just want to know they're not stuck and they can move.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

usandpets said:


> It's not about winning. Please, just explain how dropping the rope which is releasing the pressure, and running away, teaches the horse that kicking is unnecessary.
> 
> I'm sure you know that horses don't learn from pressure but instead the release of pressure. If they get a release by kicking, that just reinforces that they should kick.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No thanks. I've talked in circles enough on this topic. You are all right.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The reason a lot of horses will kick out when the back lets are handled is he figures something is trying to hamstring him and he'll be dinner. Same with tying, he means of escape has been blocked and he fight it or panics. We need to take the time to help these horses with their issues. A horse that can't be tied will often, if taught, to ground tie because he knows he can escape that predator that lurking out there. Because he can escape he'll stay.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Good God this thread is exactly why I don't post on forums, I wish I had remembered BEFORE I posted. Instead of attacking someones technique _that has worked_ for 30 + years, why not support the OP? For Christ sake using the rope is only an extension of your arm so you *can *get away safely if you have to, not just because they move like you seem to think. I have used this on probably 2 dozen horses of all breeds and sizes and never has one learned that it is ok to kick. Quit regurgitating buzz words and try something before you trash it.


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

Work with his hind feet a lot. Pick them up if you can, even if it is for two seconds. If you can, while you pick up one of his good hind ends - have someone stand in front of the horse and when he is being good with his foot up, have them give him a treat. Then go to his bad hind and only give him the treat when he holds it good. 
If you want to be able to pick up his hinds pretty well, you need to work with them and when you pick it up try and make it a good experience. Try and make him look forward to you picking up his hind feet.


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