# Dorsal Stripe on a Black Horse?



## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Hey Guys!

My reg. Paint mare, Charity, is solid black, but has a very visible dorsal stripe. Her father was a purebred Paint horse, and her mother a purebred Quarter Horse.

Here is her pedigree: Poco Lady Charity Paint

Any clues as to why she has a dorsal stripe? Maybe its something in her breeding? I don't think King or Poco Bueno had a dorsal (I LOVE King babies, so i know a bit about them) But i know a lot of people managed to get grulla horses out of King babies... so maybe he has the dorsal stripe/leg barring somewhere in his breeding.

I've seen dull dorsals on other horses too (sometimes chestnuts, palominos, etc) I've even seen a Palomino with a very visible dun stripe AND leg barring.

Anyways... Do all horses have some form of dorsal if they get sun bleached? Charity isn't really sun bleached... and if she was, wouldnt the dorsal on her back get bleached out too?

I've heard people talk about how there is no true black horse... just really really dark bays. But i'm pretty darn sure Charity is considered black. I can spot a phoney black horse in a New York minute.

I'd love any input on this that I can get! I feel all.. newbish.. for asking, LOL!

Thanks guys!!

Dorsal:









Another picture of her taken the same day i took the dorsal picture to show you what her whole body color is like:


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## Flyinghigh12 (Feb 17, 2009)

She deffinitly looks like a bay to me, even if a horse that is all black but has a brown nose is considered brown. Do you have any pictures of her in the summer?


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

I have a theory... Some palominos have the dun gene way back in their pedigree, and it gives them a dorsal stripe. My palomino has a faint dorsal stripe and black in his tail. I'm not sure if that can happen to black horses, but I suppose it's a possibility.


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

I do not have any pictures of her in the Summer. I got her Feb 1st, and she will be a year old on the 28th of this month, so truth be told, she hasn't really shown her true colors yet (literally, lol). The first shed that a baby has is usually a facade coloring (from my experience).

I can -kind of- see a stocking mark on the front left leg in the picture... but im not entirely sure. Here is another picture of Charity to show why I really think she is more on the black side rather than dark dark DARK bay. This picture was taken Feb 1st.










See? The reason the other picture is so washed out is because she is standing in the sun and its picking up all her highlighs.

Thanks for the reply =)


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

I don't think black horses can have a dorsal stripe--but Bays can. My Paint Bay has a dorsal stripe... My black friesian cross colt does not. She looks like a dark bay to me.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

A dorsal like that is actually countershading from the smutty gene, not from the dun gene. In addition to the countershading, the smutty gene can also act to darken the whole coat. I've seen it act so drastically to make a palomino look like a dark brown color - but the horse genetically tested as a palomino. 

I suspect this horse is a bay with the smutty gene.


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

So is there such a thing as a black horse? Or is it indeed a myth like I had first thought? Does that mean that Black and white paints are actually all bay and white paints? I'll be interested to see how Charity looks when she sheds out this summer too, Maybe the bay factor will be more obvious.

Im not crazy though am I? She does look black in that second photo i posted of her.. right? LOL Immediately after posting the first picture i noticed the front black stockings. I had never noticed before because I had never been looking at her color, more at her build lol!

Thanks for all the helpful info guys! I am really interested in coat colors and genetics =) So this is a great discussion for me! =)


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Where did you get "black horses are a myth" from what anyone wrote? Black horses are real and they can be genetically tested for. 

You can see red tones still even in the 2nd photo. It could be sun bleaching as well. UC Davis can do a genetic test and tell you if the horse is black or bay with just a few hairs. If you are really curious that is the best way to find out for sure - winter coats can be deceiving.


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## Velvetgrace (Aug 17, 2008)

Horse looks bay to me


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Cat,

A few colleagues I used to work with told me there is no true black horse, just really really dark bays. I think they figured that if a horse sunbleached it must be bay (no joke, someone actually told me a true black horse will not sunbleach.. L O L) So i've heard it both ways, that black is a color, and that it was actually bay.

I know she is sunbleached, and she has had a really rough start in life (already has scars from rain rot =/) so maybe she's black... maybe she's bay.. maybe I'll get her hair tested at UC Davis, LOL

Do you have a link to more information on UC Davis and the color test? I'd like to know how much it is =)

Thanks for your input Cat! =)


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

There are two base colors for horses - black & red. Everything else are modifiers on top of those. A bay is actually a black horse with the agouti modifier.

Here is a link to UC Davis. $40 for the first test - you would want the agouti one.

Horse Coat Color


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## whitetrashwarmblood (Aug 24, 2008)

An old farmer once told me that true black horses don't turn brown-ish while being out in the sun all day. True?


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

^^^ False. I can't access my photos here at work (on my lunch break) but if you click the link in my sig go to my Friesian page and see the Friesian I had. FPS/FHANA registered Friesian, no debate she was BLACK. But if you look at the saddled photos, she appears bay due to drastic sun bleaching (darn Az summer sun!)


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## Twilight Arabians (Dec 14, 2008)

yes, that is true, although when it comes to horses, breeds, and colors people never agree... but there is a turn Black and what makes a horse a true black is when there out in the sun the dont look brown. here some pics.

Horses that look black, but in the sun are not.






























Now this is a ture OLD black horse. and it was super bright out when i took these pics. if you dont think the bellow horse is black then by god what color is he?



























True black horses are very rare, i my self have a black horse, is he a true black? while i wish he was he is in fact not, even though people beg to differ with me on just how black he is. he my horse i think i know what color he is. lol!!


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

There is no such thing as a 'true' black.  Some horses bleach and others don't; just like some people burn and others don't. Some people say it's a copper deficiency, and with at least 100 g. of copper they won't bleach as bad.

Bleaching happens ESPECIALLY when the horse sweats, so you could also suggest that horse's who sweat more, bleach more. And since not all horses sweat really bad... Who knows.

A lot of horse's bleach. Who's to say bay's aren't true bays if they bleach? 

A lot of show friesians, who are BLACK and can only be registered black, are kept in during the hottest part of the day. = no bleaching, woo!


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

This horse is not black. A true black has black skin which makes a dorsal stripe not possible. She probably was a dark bay at one point which might have looked black to you but even sun bleached, this horse was never a true black.


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Cache, Don't most horses have black skin? Or am I mistaken?

The thing that gets me about Charity his how deep deep black her head is. I can usually call a dark bay horse in a New York Minute, but Charity has been harder to read for me. I might just cough up the 40 bucks and get her tested just to know. Im looking out the window at her right now and though her fur is bleached out, she still looks very black. The one thing that really convinces me she may be dark bay is the slight presence of front stockings.

I know about the Black and Brown families (read all up on that when i found out about Cremellos and Perlinos) The other thing that has me thrown for a loop is "Brown"... When I was a budding young horse person my instructors taught me a horse can never be "brown" in color (they are usually bay, chestnut, etc).. Its funny, because ive heard more people call bays "brown" but bays are part of the black family 

Oh the hilarity of the horse world, someone else who posted on this thread said it right... no two horse people can agree on horse color, LOL!


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

whitetrashwarmblood said:


> An old farmer once told me that true black horses don't turn brown-ish while being out in the sun all day. True?


Not true. Its called sun fading and genetically verified black horses have been shown to sun fade. The fading has more to do with diet, sun exposure, etc.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Skippy! said:


> I know about the Black and Brown families (read all up on that when i found out about Cremellos and Perlinos) The other thing that has me thrown for a loop is "Brown"... When I was a budding young horse person my instructors taught me a horse can never be "brown" in color (they are usually bay, chestnut, etc).. Its funny, because ive heard more people call bays "brown" but bays are part of the black family
> 
> Oh the hilarity of the horse world, someone else who posted on this thread said it right... no two horse people can agree on horse color, LOL!


There is a new theory on "brown". Its believed to be a variance on the agouti gene and thus related to bay. UC Davis hasn't come out with anything to verify it, but another color testing facility claims they have discovered and have a test for "brown" now. However, most color people are still waiting for the scientific paper for peer review that seems very slow coming - if it ever will. 

But anyway - the theory is that while bay is the agouti gene on black that creates a horse with the black restricted to the points, that brown is an different version of the agouti that also works on black, but partially restricts it through the whole coat - making a mixture of red & black hairs creating the brown/seal brown look.


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Cat, That makes a whole lot of sense... so a "brown" horse would be the same shade of brown as a traditional bay and/or dark bay, only there would be -no- black points... just brown all the way through. Very interesting!

TwilightArabians, I meant to say this a few posts ago but i forgot, lol. The first few pictures of horses you posted were very obviously bay to me... the tell tale brown around the bellies, etc.. the reason I am having such a hard time telling with Charity is because she had a very poor nutrition from her first home/breeder, which apparently lends to the fading out of black horses. The horse you posted after them was very very black, and thats more what Charity looks like in person.

I just came in from giving Charity a bath (Yay for nice weather!!) and had trouble locating her stocking again... BUT.. when I was going over her with the brush after she dried, there are select shorthair spots on her (from shedding out and from hair growing back from the rain rot) and it is appears very, very black. I guess the last oddball thing is the dorsal stripe... which probably makes her a bay, lol.

I'm still thinking very seriously about getting her tested just for my own peace of mind.. plus, its just one more thing to have in her files =)


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

What you have is a dark bay or sometimes called a seal bay or brown. They can be mistaken for black as there will be times they will appear to be black but any horse that shows lighter brown highlights is not a true black. 

True blacks do occur.

black horses

*the genetics of the black coat*



Black horses have at least one E+ allele at the extension locus (i.e. they are of genotype E+E+, E+e or E+ea). This dominant allele causes the production of the black eumelanin pigment. 

The A or agouti locus controls the distribution of black pigment in horses with at least one E+ allele: whether it occurs evenly throughout the body, as in true black horses, or only in certain parts, as in bays and browns. 

The recessive allele Aa of the agouti locus has no effect on eumelanin production. Horses of genotype AaAa therefore have a base color of black. It is the Aa allele that is rare in some breeds. Breeders interested in producing black foals would ideally have horses of genotype AaAa E+E+, i.e. true-breeding blacks. 

The coats of some black horses fade – or rather redden - in the sun. The genetic basis of so called fading and non-fading black isn’t currently known. However the phenomenon is well known and not confined to horses, occurring in people and cats, and probably in other animals too. 

Since red (chestnut) horses are true-breeding for red it is easy to breed red foals. It is more difficult to breed black horses, since they may be of genotype E+E+ or they may be heterozygous. Breeding together heterozygous blacks may produce chestnut foals.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Some black horses bleach and some don't, but that doesn't mean only the ones that don't are "true" black. Bleaching can happen in any color... I've seen a palomino bleach to the point where they looked cremello.


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## cowgirlfitzy (Jan 27, 2009)

I didn't read this whole thread so I don't know if this was already said or not, but a true black horse will not have any brown hairs. A lot of horses that look black are really brown. I seen someone put a a few photos. If you look in the flank and around the muzzle is usually where you will the see the brown. 

I think this little filly is a bay. It would be nice to see her shed out tho.

I think all horses can fade. My Dun gelding who has alot of dun factor will fade in the summer if I allow it too. His dorsal stripe will almost disappear unless I keep a sheet on him and feed him a good diet. I like adding paparika to his grain to help with that. 

A lot of horses have false dorsal stripes like your chestnuts and bays that hay them. I don't know much about the gene thing but I think its considered a dilute gene or something like that. A real dorsal stripe will really show up and they will have other dun factors to prove that is a real dun marking. 

Heres is my boys Dun factor.






































I found a picture of him after I body clipped him and he was sun bleached from a few years ago. You can barely see his dorsal or shoulder stripe


















http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j281/fitzycent4dot6/Dukes Dallas/Photo Shoot/021-1.jpg


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

whitetrashwarmblood said:


> An old farmer once told me that true black horses don't turn brown-ish while being out in the sun all day. True?


 


If that were true, no Friesians would bleach. There are no bay Friesians. And I've seen some pretty sunbleached ones.


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## Lucara (Apr 5, 2008)

Fred, the black percheron. Hes definitely black but because he was kept up in a stall in the front (the sun constantly was on him), and they let him out during the day, hes started to bleach out.










The horse in question looks bay to me though. Even in the darker picture you can see red highlights


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## FGRanch (Feb 9, 2008)

I have to agree that the little filly is a bay. She is going to be a very dark bay, but a bay none the less.


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## upsidedown (Jul 10, 2008)

As for their being a "brown" gene (different agouti dispersal pattern) While its true people often confuse dark bays for brown, but I usually see more liver chestnuts being mistaken for brown and on occasion smokey black will look brown too (or bay for that matter) which has nothing to do with agouti. So this is why I really doubt that brown is another way agouti effects a horse as the most brown looking horses I've seen were liver chestnut and red based horses do not show agouti. Although it'd be interesting to see if liver chestnuts carried the agouti factor, and that was just their way of reacting to it. Of course, I doubt it, as agouti just controls the dispersing of black pigment... but still... it'd be interesting to see.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

A very interesting topic! My colt is a 'smokey black', and has been DNA tested--no agouti gene. But he has the 'seal brown' look around his nose, and his hair bleaches easily. This summer will be his first 'real' coat when he sheds out... so we'll see!


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Mayfield, could you share a picture? I've never actually seen what a smokey black looks like before, lol! I've only heard of them =)

I'm going to get in touch with UC Davis today for information on getting the color kit... Everyone has me really interested now, lol!


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

lol, Sure! I'll show a couple so you can see how he 'changed' so far.

Here he is only a few weeks old:










Here he is about 4-5 months old--and you can really see the 'creme' in this one!!










And here he is with his winter coat:










As you can see... he's all over the board so far!! Let me dig up the results from his DNA testing...

Okay:

E/e for 'red factor', with this: 'basic color is black, bay, or brown in the absence of other modifying genes.'

a/a for agouti, the recessive gene. 'Black pigment is distributed uniformly.' [Pssht. not yet! lol]

And one 'Cr' gene from his cremello german warmblood dad, which is SUPPOSED to be recessive if with a black gene.

*rolls eyes* who knows what color this boy is going to be! I can't wait for him to shed out.


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## Skippy! (Dec 18, 2006)

Wow Mayfield! He looks so black in that winter coat, and so very bay in the summer coat, LOL! This will be Charity's first "reliable shed" of her life. She was born in march and had her baby coat well into the summer. And of course, everything is darker in the winter... Dreamer is a peachy roan in the summer but looks downright chestnut in the winter, lol!

After furthering Charity's pedigree search, i've educed that there could -possibly- be the chance that she is a smokey black... and when i say that, im not hopeful, im just saying I think the potential may be there.

Here is her pedigree (i forget if i posted it already or not): Poco Lady Charity Paint

I have no color information on her Sire or Dam. (Any help would be SO LOVED <3!!! I need to get the registration through on the APHA side so i can get my online account and research some myself.

On her Father's side (APHA) Her grandsire was a black and white, and her Great Greats were chestnut, Sorrel, Black, etc. So there is some of the red gene there.

On her Mother's side (AQHA) No info on grandsires, but the great grandsires were Chestnut Buckskin and Brown... so there is more red to throw into her, as well as the Buckskin.

Again.. if anyone could get any color info on her folks/grandparents, I would really appreciate it. I'd love to know!

This topic had turned out to be more interesting than i expected! =)


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## upsidedown (Jul 10, 2008)

I suspect Fiona is smokey black, but as she isn't mine (...yet?) I haven't really bothered to get testing done.

Smokey black usually looks plain black or dark bay. Though it can look like a faded black, which is what I suspect Fi is, either that or she is just REALLY dark bay.

Fi in fluffy winter coat (probably a bit sun bleached, we don't really have cloudy winters) - 









Fi shaved -








This pic is kinda dark...


















Fi and Brutus. 

Don't have a picture of it, but her summer coat looks dark bay. Although NC summer sun's bleach out dark coats BAAAD, so she could just be plain black in the summer. To give you an idea, my friend's chesnut has a blond mane on top in the summer, but the mane protected and under the top layer is like liver chesnut.

It'd be interesting to see if she was smokey black, and I'll probably do that if/when I buy her, just for curiosity's sake.


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## Flyinghigh12 (Feb 17, 2009)

I can see brown in her nose and ears.. she's for sure a bay


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