# Help Undo Damage?? Sicko Trainer



## pbernier (Nov 19, 2014)

Greetings forum folk- have gained so much from all your input since I came to riding a few years back, am hoping to ask your advice in how to undo damage a trainer did to my horse...
I have a BLM Mustang, 5 y/o gelding. Have been working with him for about six months (he was initially gentled in a prison training program); he's lovely and gentle, green but reliable. Recently brought him to a local renowned trainer for some finishing. I discovered yesterday that one of the trainer's 'tools' is to sic his dogs on a horse to get the horse to move his feet. He gleefully admitted to me he did this the first day my horse was there because my horse wasn't leading well. It took me five long months to desensitize my horse to dogs; mine is a horse that has never once bucked, reared, or kicked, and yet, yesterday, when I was leading him at the trainer's barn, the trainer's dogs ran buy, and my horse did all three- totally panicked. I'd had the horse able to pass strange dogs on the trail without issue, and now he is terrified of our own dogs (I brought him home that day). Clearly, the trainer is a kind of sick-old school cowboy type. What's happened is done, and I'm moving on. But. I need to desensitize my horse to dogs after this trauma, as dogs are frequently on the trails and beach where I ride. Would so appreciate any input, and heartfelt thanks for taking the time to read my post and respond.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Sorry this has happened, but you're right. It's done. All you can do is start all over, desensitizing the same way you did before you took him to the trainer. He'll get it. One thing I discovered about my mare who had been attacked by dogs, is she responded to my "protection". If strange dogs got too close and I shooed them away, she quickly began to see that I wasn't going to tolerate misbehaving dogs around her. It didn't take long. Now our dogs (6 of them) can run all over the pasture and she just ignores them. If we come across strange dogs on the trail, she's watchful, but will take her cues from me. She won't get upset unless I do.

Your guy is young enough to relearn what you want him to.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Now you have him home he'll probably just get used to your dogs again and gradually forget the bad experience - it won't happen overnight and you're going to have to use all the trust he has in you as his leader to reassure him that not all dogs are like that
Can't think why anyone would do that - I've had more than a few horses that wouldn't think twice about attacking a dog that ran at them in a threatening way


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Just want to say, this is just plain ignorance, has nothing to do with being a "sick old cowboy type". 
Anyone that has good working dogs will not tolerate a dog biting or working horses as a horse that is worried about being bit by dogs will not focus on his job. I have seen horses that have been worked over by dogs kill dogs, curious baby calves and injure people.
I am sorry you have to fix this problem as it is not an easy one to deal with, time and being around kind, smart dogs.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

As you're still in the desensitizing phase, every time your horse is around dogs, they need to be in your control. Whether your dogs are well trained to vocal cues, or on a leash, you need to direct them. Depending on how frightened your horse really is you may need to speed a good deal of time on these exercises or you may be able to go through them pretty quickly. 

I would start with a dog tied in the middle or the arena. From there, just work your horse as normal and have your dog just become part of the scenery so to speak. As your horse gets more comfortable, you can ride closer to your dogs. 

The next thing i'd do is track your dogs. You can do this under saddle or on the ground if you have someone lead your dogs. It's a huge confidence boost to a horse when they realize that they can make something move away from them. You don't need to do this at speed as you don't want to frighten your dogs either but a walk and a nice jog is excellent. 

Next is getting your horse used to your dogs moving around at speed. I've preferred to do this with the horse tied using a blocker tie ring, the tie ring will ensure that the horse doesn't turn tail and bolt while they can still move their feet. I'll have the dog on the opposite side of the fence. From there, play fetch, tug of war etc. Things that get your dog moving around. You may have to start a fair distance from your horse before you get closer. 

At this point, your horse should have some decent confidence around horses and so you should be able to turn your dog loose in the arena while you ride. If your horse gets a little worried, allow him to turn away from the dog but put a little pressure on him as he does then ask him to softly turn back to the dog where the pressure is removed. 

From there you can up the ante even more. You can play fetch from horseback ( if your horse is alright with things moving around from above him of course) or other games. This will get your dog more active while you remain in control of the situation so you don't run into a surprise spook if your dog darts off. 

Whenever you see your horse is alright with one dog, you can start adding in more. 

It is kind of a process that seems like a bit much but, I for one have run into some horses that are absolutely terrified of dogs that did need a structured program to desensitize them.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I have trouble with my 4 yr old being afraid of dogs. And I don't have a dog so that makes it harder. But I try to turn and face an approaching dog and then ideally chase it away (track it as BreakableRider suggests). Its hard for the rider too as pretty soon you are anticipating the horse reacting when dogs approach. And that's not confidence building to the horse. :-( 

Our problem started when a certain dog would rush out whenever we passed his house. My gelding was still being ponied from his mom at the time. The dog is long gone (he got run over because he also chased cars) but my gelding still spooks at dogs. :evil:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

if you have the chance, later when he's getting a bit happier about being around dogs, if you can "chase" the dog, this can build his courage. have someone lead the dog ahead of you, even running with the dog, away from you, and have your horse follow the dog, almost chasing him. this can help a scared hrose become less of the pursued, and more the pursuer.


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## pbernier (Nov 19, 2014)

Blue said:


> Sorry this has happened, but you're right. It's done. All you can do is start all over, desensitizing the same way you did before you took him to the trainer. He'll get it. One thing I discovered about my mare who had been attacked by dogs, is she responded to my "protection". If strange dogs got too close and I shooed them away, she quickly began to see that I wasn't going to tolerate misbehaving dogs around her. It didn't take long. Now our dogs (6 of them) can run all over the pasture and she just ignores them. If we come across strange dogs on the trail, she's watchful, but will take her cues from me. She won't get upset unless I do.
> 
> Your guy is young enough to relearn what you want him to.


Thank you so much for your input- I really appreciate your perspective, and helping me keep mine...many thanks!


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## pbernier (Nov 19, 2014)

Thank you so much for your input- your perspective helped me re-gain mine. many, many thanks!


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## pbernier (Nov 19, 2014)

thank you so much; seem to be having difficulty posting, so sorry if this posts multiple times. Your great perspective has helped me find mine! Thank you...


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## pbernier (Nov 19, 2014)

agreed. Seems a risky method. Thank you so much for your response; will keep on the trust!


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## pbernier (Nov 19, 2014)

Brilliant. Can't thank you enough for all the time you took to post....very, very solid advice, and I'm on it. SO many thanks to you for taking so much time to help me with this!!!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Your horses reaction around dogs is odd considering she's a BLM, because if my dog got a little too exuberant around the horses, he risked getting kicked or chased. How is a horse supposed to discern a dog from a wolf yet we expect them to. Both are predators. If the dogs ran up behind her at the trainers they may have startled her as horses don't see as well behind as forward, movement more than anything, thus a reaction.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Saddlebag, I think it depends on what this "trainer" was letting the dogs do. If he was actually letting them nip and heel the horse like you would cattle on the range, then the horse will get upset.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Blue said:


> Saddlebag, I think it depends on what this "trainer" was letting the dogs do. If he was actually letting them nip and heel the horse like you would cattle on the range, then the horse will get upset.


I agree. I have a friend with several dogs (Queensland Heelers) and her horses are used to the dogs. They ride great with the dogs. But the dogs will still "heel" the horses at pasture when she's not home and the horses run.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

trailhorserider said:


> I agree. I have a friend with several dogs (Queensland Heelers) and her horses are used to the dogs. They ride great with the dogs. But the dogs will still "heel" the horses at pasture when she's not home and the horses run.


Yeah, I have a blue heeler, 2 pit mixes and three german shepherds. Took a LOT of training to teach them the horses were off limits. And I still have to occasionally put the shock collar back on the heeler to remind him. Some people think that's awful, but I'd rather teach him than let him get kicked. I was out riding one day and we came across a few cows in the desert. A couple of them had new calves. My heeler was young and tried doing his thing with this cows. Just as I was started to yell at him and call him back one of those mama cows chased him quite a ways away! To this day, he won't mess with the cattle.


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## Roux (Aug 23, 2013)

Something that I was taught to do and do on the trails when we come across dogs we don't know:

We always whistle or say hey doggie, good boy. NOT for the benefit of the dog but for the benefit of the horse. If the horse senses you calling to the dog in a friendly tone they will hopefully sense that the dog is not something to be upset or spooked about. Also if you see the dog before the horse (which rarely happens) its a way of letting your horse know there is a dog before the dog sneaks up and scares them. 

I'm sorry this trainer did this and set you guys back so far. That's terrible.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Very much agree(as usual) with Breakable's controlled & gradual desensitisation advice. Your horse just needs lots(& lots) of *non confrontational* experiences with dogs, then be desensitised to *gradually* more 'scary' situations with them. He will get over it, but I'd also keep in mind that if these 'early impressions' are strong, then in times of stress or surprise, or when things get too much for him, he may always be inclined to 'come unglued'.

My current horse had a similar 'phobia' to motorbikes, after a friend's brother thought it would be fun to 'play chasey' with them on his dirtbike in the paddock!! Took a lot of getting used to motorbikes at a 'safe' distance before we could be close to a road with one passing. Took more, with the help of some 'stink-bike'  friends, to get him comfortable about a motorbike actually coming towards him. He's fine now(altho I imagine with a nervous rider he'd be outta there!), until a pack of Harleys goes by at close quarters(don't blame him hating that noise!)... he handles the first 6-7 calmly now, but it starts to get too much for him after that, if they keep coming. Can still control him OK, but I generally get off at that point & let him 'bravely' hide behind me while the rest go past!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

just go back to how you did it the first time. He should come back around. 
My paint mare always spooked at one house with dogs, I would call the dogs,so they did not jump from behind a bush , before i got to the house, and then i would pat her neck and say here come the dogs.. and bark, and pat her neck, she spooked for about a month and then stopped. (except fire trucks .. never got over them)


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Roux said:


> Something that I was taught to do and do on the trails when we come across dogs we don't know:
> 
> We always whistle or say hey doggie, good boy. NOT for the benefit of the dog but for the benefit of the horse. If the horse senses you calling to the dog in a friendly tone they will hopefully sense that the dog is not something to be upset or spooked about. Also if you see the dog before the horse (which rarely happens) its a way of letting your horse know there is a dog before the dog sneaks up and scares them.


I do this with dogs and people too! I will say hello to a person in their yard if I see them first just so they will answer and my horse won't get startled. Otherwise they sometimes see someone move out of the corner of their eye and don't realize it's a person. 

Also, when meeting up with another friend on a horse, I will call out hello when we meet so the horse realizes it's another horse/rider coming towards them. It's amazing at the things they can startle at if they don't recognize it's a "friendly" right away!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

stevenson said:


> just go back to how you did it the first time. He should come back around.
> My paint mare always spooked at one house with dogs, I would call the dogs,so they did not jump from behind a bush , before i got to the house, and then i would pat her neck and say here come the dogs.. and bark, and pat her neck, she spooked for about a month and then stopped. (except fire trucks .. never got over them)


Sorry *stevenson*, I just saw that you said basically the same thing. Still, I suppose good advice can't be repeated enough. :lol:

I also think it sets the horse up for a positive experience if you are speaking in a friendly tone of voice. So sometimes I will "fake it" with dogs, by saying what a pretty doggie they are and sweet talking them in hopes my horse won't panic if they run up.

But if a dog seems aggressive, I will forgo that and tell them to "go home" in a stern voice. Sometimes the listen, especially when you turn the horse to face them or take steps towards them. Most dogs will run from a horse coming towards them, thankfully.


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## buckinblondie (Nov 26, 2014)

that trainer should be sued. you can't undo that. all you can do is learn to work with it now. don't desensitize your horse. that is one of the worst things you can do especially a traumatized horse. engage your horse's intelligence. increase his strength through good training. if he resists something it's because he is not physically prepared. you need a horse to be sensitive to be light...not brain dead and obedient. a horse whose body is physically prepared and mind is engaged in what you are requesting is hard to rattle.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

buckinblondie said:


> that trainer should be sued. you can't undo that. all you can do is learn to work with it now. don't desensitize your horse. that is one of the worst things you can do especially a traumatized horse. engage your horse's intelligence. increase his strength through good training. if he resists something it's because he is not physically prepared. you need a horse to be sensitive to be light...not brain dead and obedient. a horse whose body is physically prepared and mind is engaged in what you are requesting is hard to rattle.


I'm just curious as to how you can say desensitizing your horse is one of the worst things you can do (regardless of whether there was trauma or not). You can have a horse with the best foundation in the world 'prepared' for anything who will STIlL spook at something they aren't desensitized to. Horses should be sensitive to cues and communication from their rider, not outside stimuli that will serve to frighten / confuse / distract them. In my opinion, you can't have a horse who is 100% engaged in what you're doing WITHOUT being desensitized.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing buckinblondie. Why is desensitizing your horse a bad thing? Or are we talking about two different things?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

buckinblondie said:


> if he resists something it's because he is not physically prepared.


You are quite incorrect buckin, that horses cannot be gotten over things that have terrified them previously. Even humans can do this too!

In addition to the interesting attitude about desensitising(I'm guessing perhaps you've only seen 'flooding' type tactics labled as 'desensitising' ~ eg. restraining a horse and forcing him to 'put up with' whatever until he quits reacting?), I'm curious where the view that physical 'preparedness', rather than mentally, is helpful?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

buckinblondie said:


> that trainer should be sued. you can't undo that. all you can do is learn to work with it now. don't desensitize your horse. that is one of the worst things you can do especially a traumatized horse. engage your horse's intelligence. increase his strength through good training. if he resists something it's because he is not physically prepared. you need a horse to be sensitive to be light...not brain dead and obedient. a horse whose body is physically prepared and mind is engaged in what you are requesting is hard to rattle.


 
I am calling BS, you can undo what has been done but it takes time. I am riding a horse now that has been chased and heeled by unsupervised dogs. He wants to kick everything that brushes up against his back legs, I used loading calves in the tub the other day and at first we wanted to kick all of them but he slowly started coming around. Also started taking my dog(who is properly trained and will NOT work a horse) and he is finally letting down around her as we work. But I do agree with you on engaging the horse's mind, giving them a job to focus on is a big help. Sometimes his focus changes back and forth from worrying about my dog to gathering cattle but he is getting better. Other horses that I have rode have gotten over it as well.

I somewhat agree with you about desensitizing. I don't think desensitizing itself is bad, _*OVER-desensitizing is what creates a dull horse*_. Desensitizing shouldn't be about exposing your to every single little thing you might encounter that might scare him. It should be about teaching him to control his reactiveness no matter what he sees even if you didn't expose him to the item before in a controlled situation.


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## hyperkalemic4 (Dec 8, 2014)

It could have been that the guy just wanted to tire the horse out before he got ready to ride and was to lazy to work him in the round corral for a while. If the horse is broke, I do hope you will go ahead with the horse yourself and find that you able to teach the horse yourself. Just remember to train every time you ride and you would be happy with what you can do yourself.


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