# 3 nights on the trail



## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

Could you graze your horse will camping?
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## cwsmith (Jul 3, 2011)

I knew i left something out :lol: No grazing is not allowed :-(


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Three nights?
I can't imaging being out, not being able to graze and having to pack all your stuff, plus food, bedroll, etc as well as feed for the horse too, and not seriously overload the horse...unless you load the horse and you walk.
I have done it but for only one night and we had a high meadow to graze in.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I does seem challengeing to take all you need without a pack horse. Can it be done?


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

I looked at hydration hay (interweb search) and could see why you consider it. I personally had never heard of it before now. Seems you'd need at least a whole block, which from what I read weighs 25lbs. Sounds doable. But I'd think you'd need to get your horses on it way ahead to be sure how much they'll really need to eat, and get used to eating it. From what I read its finely chopped Timothy and alfalfa, I'd be concerned that one bale wouldn't be enough for three nights of good riding, so youd carry 2, and there'd be no long fiber. Just to me personally, I'm thinking it could cause some issues. Health wise. But maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe you could tell us a lil more about your trip so we could help more?
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## TrailheadSupply (Sep 6, 2012)

do worry about supplements your horse will do fine without them and it will save you weight and space. But I would start working the hydration hay into his diet a few days before you leave. are you cooking over a fire ? that would save space not bringing a stove


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

" What else should I take"

A couple spare horses to replace this one, when it colics and dies on you. 3 days without long fiber, is very, very dangerous.


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## cwsmith (Jul 3, 2011)

The first night would probably be after a short 5 mile ride. The second and third nights would be after 20 or so miles. I was thinking that since the thrid night would be in the same place that my first night was that I could possibly stash the feed near that location that I will need for the third night to lighten my load some.
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## cwsmith (Jul 3, 2011)

Would the hydration hay not take care of my long fiber problem?
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## TrailheadSupply (Sep 6, 2012)

With Hydration hay you'll have to have a bucket to soak it. If its public ground you are riding on ? do you need certified feed ? If so hydration hay is not certified.


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## cwsmith (Jul 3, 2011)

Yes it is in the smoky mountain national park. I didn't realize hydration hay wasn't certified. Any other suggestions?
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## TrailheadSupply (Sep 6, 2012)

Stop by the feed store and double check and see if your hydration hay is or isn't certified. It is not out west. then pick up a bag of certified hay cubes or pellets. You can't graze in a national park but you can get off and lead your horse and if he happens to graze the edge of the trail thats alright so supplement his feed with grass along the way. Have a great trip !!!


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## cwsmith (Jul 3, 2011)

Thanks yall
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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

"Would the hydration hay not take care of my long fiber problem?"

Nope.

You'll have a hard time getting enough grass along the way. Rule of thumb, 1/3 to 1/2 of a horse's intake of feed, must be long fiber.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

3 days. No grazing. One horse to carry rider, gear and all feed. Only certified (i.e. no seed) feed allowed.
You don't want much :lol:

"Technically" it's doable (a horse can get by on less for short periods), but not in a way that most people would want.
Since you'll end at the start point you can (as pointed out) leave the 3rd nights feeding in place there (and make it a good feeding).

beet pulp is easily digested fiber and worth about 1/3 more it's weight in hay (and it's a no seed feed). You can carry enough to "get by" on for two days, but your horse won't be full and there's always a risk of colic when the digestive tract isn't working normally. Try to feed at least 4 times during the day to keep some food moving throughout the day.

No grazing is the real killer here since grazing stops allow for the gut to be worked thoughout the day as well as providing some level of the nutritional needs.

Of course you can lead the horse allowing it carry more so it meets what it needs. You can hike and backpack what you need.


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## Painted Horse (Dec 29, 2006)

I guess it really depends on how much you weigh. A horse needs 1-2% of its body weight each day in feed. That's usually 15-20 lbs of feed. So three days could equal 60lbs of feed. If you go really light weight on your gear, Say 30 lbs and you only weigh 100lbs, You will be fine

If you are 200lbs like me and your camp gear weighs more than 30lbs, You are in trouble and need a pack horse. Or. Pack you horse and lead them as you walk. I've done that on occasions. After camp is set up, I can saddle up and ride.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Painted Horse gave you a good over view.

Everyone who's done distancing riding/camping will have a system that they've perfected and works for them (or they wouldn't still be doing it ). I personally wouldn't want to do it with those restrictions, but this would be the scenario if I had to do it with one of my horses. 
(of course, as Painted Horse pointed out, you'll need to look at your horse -size and condition-, your tack/gear and your own weight.)

In my case:
Horse: 1217 lbs, 9.5" cannon bones, short back, wide loins
Goal for loaded weight: 240 lbs (which at 1457lbs still exceeds what her 9.5" cannon bones should be carrying, but it's doable and provides for good load bearing riding to increase the cannon bones)
Rider: (todays weight on the scales) Fully dressed - (i.e. jeans, flannel shirt, US Army issue boots) - 167.2 lbs
Saddle/tack/etc..: 23.6 lbs
Gear: Tent 5 lbs, mess <1 lbs - rounded up 6 lbs (no sleeping bag, I use the saddle blanket and for 3 days I'll survive with what I'm wearing....will look forward to the bath and clean clothes)
Food: Get by on 5 lbs of MRE's

So we're at 205 lbs (round up)
What about potable water? (we have to drink too) Is it available at the campsites or do we have to carry it in? Water weighs over 8 lbs / gal (US). We need at least 2 gal and might be pretty thirsty by the time you return to starting point on day 3.
Water: 17 lbs (2 gal)
We have to have a lot more than that for the horse, but we'll say that we're allowed to use water that's available even if we can't eat the grass.

222 lbs.

That leaves about 18 lbs for horse feed (if we're riding). We can go over that and it won't kill the horse (providing the horse is healthy and in good physical condition). 20% is the ideal top limit, not something that "cannot" be exceeded (and is only part of total equation...cannon bone size, loin width, back length also make up part of the total equation).
At 1200 lbs it will need about 24 lbs of food a day. We can manage with 20 lbs for a short time.
So I "over load" by about 22 lbs (262 vs 240....even more so for the cannon bone, but I'm only going to ride at a walk for days 1 and 2) to cover day 1 and 2 (having day 3 waiting for you at your end point). I'll feed out 20 lbs on the first night plus what I eat and drink so that on day 2 I"ll start out at about 235 lbs (reduced food and water) for a 2nd day of slow and easy riding. Day 3 will be a bit over 200 lbs and I can have at it then (how soon willI reach final camp and all the supplies there ). Never fun to be out of supply.

For feed I’ll use beet pulp and copra. Neither have seed, but easily digested and the beet pulp will give me extra value equal to about an extra 1/3 it’s weight in hay. That might get me the extra nutritional needed to equal the 24 lbs.

Yes, it’s doable, but I’d still rather have the grazing. Gives the horses something to do and it’s better for the gut.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Good grief I just read over the rules there, they did everything they could to say, "No Horses" without saying no horses. Id find somewhere less restrictive to ride like the VA highlands trail .


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If you are in the middle of nowhere, how is somebody going to stop your horse from grazing?


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> Good grief I just read over the rules there, they did everything they could to say, "No Horses" without saying no horses. Id find somewhere less restrictive to ride like the VA highlands trail .


ditto

I can understand the no seed feed, but there are plenty of good places to ride that allow for grazing.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

petersburg battlefield has taken the same type of attitude recently. hqving hissy fits if a horse drinks out of a creek. And it ISNOT an erosion issue the creek in question has a gravel trail into and out of it. Supposedly they have a camera up and have written tickets in the parking lot. They get good pictures of me flipping them off when I cross the creek.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Joe...your face...er, finger... is probably on a poster on a wall somewhere.
Wanted for crimes against the camera.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

yeh I figure I'll moon em next time.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> petersburg battlefield has taken the same type of attitude recently. hqving hissy fits if a horse drinks out of a creek. And it ISNOT an erosion issue the creek in question has a gravel trail into and out of it. Supposedly they have a camera up and have written tickets in the parking lot. They get good pictures of me flipping them off when I cross the creek.


Now Joe, you're probably not making any new friends that way.....

We ride at the Chickamauga Battle Field on a somewhat frequent basis.....nothing like that going on yet....as a matter of fact, when the parking area was full, I stopped at the visitor center and ask what I should do....and they gave me permission to park in another area.

I doubt they would have made the effort had I been rude to them. 

We rode in the Smokies last fall, but rode out of an established campground. Again, we rode up on several park rangers and all were quite nice to us.....no one checked our hay......

Maybe the best thing to do would be make a phone call and talk to someone about what you're planning and see if they can find away to accommodate you.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Just made reservations for Cataloochee....nothing about hay.


_Know Before You Go
Park

Bear Habitat!!

All food and items used to store or prepare food, including coolers, MUST be stored in the trunk or cab of your vehicle/s at all times when not in use.
Dispose of garbage promptly in bear-proof dumpsters.
This rule is strictly enforced!



Firewood Quarantines are in effect!

The possession of any firewood originating from any location for which a federal or state firewood quarantine is in effect is prohibited. The movement of firewood into the park from counties adjacent to the park for which a federal or state quarantine is in place is prohibited even if the quarantine allows for movement within the county.
Firewood which bears a USDA certificate or which is purchased from a park concessionaire is allowed.
The National Park Service STRONGLY discourages the movement of firewood from location to another.
More details are available on the park website at Firewood Alert: Destructive Insects May Be Hitching A Ride! - Great Smoky Mountains National Park
This rule is strictly enforced! 



Access to Cataloochee is via a narrow, winding, mountain road. A 3 mile stretch of gravel road contains many narrow, blind curves. Though many campsites will accommodate large rigs, motorhomes over 32' and trailers over 25' in length are not recommended due to the access road.
There are no showers or electric, water or sewer hook-ups in the park.
Quiet hours are in effect from 10 PM to 6 AM. Generator use is restricted to 8 AM to 8 PM.
Fires are allowed in fire rings only.
A reservation is required for all horse camps and you must have a horse to camp here. A maximum of 6 people and 4 horses may occupy a campsite. All horses must be accompanied by a negative Coggins test. The park stay limit is 14 consecutive days.
Stalls are provided but may not be visible from your campsite. Check the site page for details. Horses may not be tied to trees.
With the exception of Big Creek, horse camps do not have potable water.
A Tennessee or North Carolina fishing license is required to fish in the park. Special regulations apply in the park.
Pets are permitted but cannot be left unattended. All pets must be kept on a leash at all times. Pets are not allowed on trails.
For additional park information call 865-436-1200 or visit Great Smoky Mountains National Park - Great Smoky Mountains National Park

Yes, I have read and understood this important information.

_


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

You see there? This is exactly why I hate it out here in the east! Too many people! Too many goofy rules! It's starting to get bad out west, but at least you still don't have to carry out your horse dung!

Funny, in most areas of Arizona, on BLM and USFS land, camping is still unregulated. You can still graze your stock, have a campfire, ride where you want, BUT DO NOT STOP TO PICK A WILDFLOWER! That is a criminal offense! 

Things are getting crazy all over.

I recently found a good book, written by an old rancher in Arizona, that talks about a lot of that stuff: Looking Through the Smoke, by Jinx Pyle.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

There is a place(Pine Martin Run)in the upper peninsula, MI where a few campsites make you pick your manure up. The sites are relatively close to the water which would be such a cool place to camp, but too many people did not spread their manure leaving it piled up so "they" say. How on earth do you pack that much manure back in your truck or trailer?.....You really can't, I believe it is a way to stop people permanently from camping there. I can understand certain restrictions but it is becoming ridiculous. I don't think trail riders are liked by the DNR....:wink:


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

thenrie said:


> You see there? This is exactly why I hate it out here in the east! Too many people! Too many goofy rules! It's starting to get bad out west, but at least you still don't have to carry out your horse dung!
> 
> Funny, in most areas of Arizona, on BLM and USFS land, camping is still unregulated. You can still graze your stock, have a campfire, ride where you want, BUT DO NOT STOP TO PICK A WILDFLOWER! That is a criminal offense!
> 
> ...


Yeah, but in Southern AZ I use to always worry about finding water for my horse. I could get enough out of cactus for me if I had to, but not for my mount (and at over 8 lbs / gal there's no way to carry enough with you for the horse). Ft Huachuca was "20 miles from water and 2 feet from hell".

In the east water is pretty easy to find. More often it's a pain having to ride to a bridge to get across, but the water is there. I remember crossing (ok, the horse stepped over it) the San Pedro River outside Sierra Vista that out east we'd call a creek :lol:. More grazing along the way too in the east. Most of the area I rode in AZ always had a bumber crop of rocks, gravel and sand :lol: so any weeds (if you find some) were quickly devoured.
Lot of room to ride, but easy to end up a casualty if you're not very careful from the lack of water and the search for grass.
I remember picking up a date once who told me I'd know her house because it was the only one with grass in the yard :lol: (and she was right).


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## Roadyy (Feb 9, 2013)

I know a guy that lives in LasVegas and is a landscape designer. I remember all of his stories of the county paying people to replace the grass with more efficient landscaping to conserve water.


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## thenrie (Sep 10, 2012)

its lbs not miles said:


> Yeah, but in Southern AZ I use to always worry about finding water for my horse. I could get enough out of cactus for me if I had to, but not for my mount (and at over 8 lbs / gal there's no way to carry enough with you for the horse). Ft Huachuca was "20 miles from water and 2 feet from hell".
> 
> In the east water is pretty easy to find. More often it's a pain having to ride to a bridge to get across, but the water is there. I remember crossing (ok, the horse stepped over it) the San Pedro River outside Sierra Vista that out east we'd call a creek :lol:. More grazing along the way too in the east. Most of the area I rode in AZ always had a bumber crop of rocks, gravel and sand :lol: so any weeds (if you find some) were quickly devoured.
> Lot of room to ride, but easy to end up a casualty if you're not very careful from the lack of water and the search for grass.
> I remember picking up a date once who told me I'd know her house because it was the only one with grass in the yard :lol: (and she was right).


Not all of Arizona is like that, just most of it. The White Mountains has some premium riding country where there is plenty of water to be found. I'm an AZ boy myself. Didn't mean to sidetrack the thread.

Packing it all in on your saddle horse for a multi-day trip is a tall order that requires the sacrifice of quite a few creature comforts for both yourself and the horse. I've done it before, but I don't recommend it. Your idea of packing in 5 miles the first day and stashing feed is a good one. You might even consider packing the horse with saddle paniers and walking that first day, stashing the paniers with your feed and excess camp gear, then riding the other days. By the time you finished the trip, the saddle paniers would be empty and you could roll them up and tie them behind the cantle.


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