# Gelding Threatening to Kick When His Feet Are Picked Up



## CdnCremello (Sep 8, 2012)

Hi Everyone,

So my gelding, Amaretto, is a rescue gelding, as some of you may recall. I have a trainer working with him twice a week, and she gives me "homework" to do with him when I'm there on weekends. He's a big guy, around 16.1 with a solid build. His general demeanor is good, he leads well and doesn't get in my space. However, he has an issue that I can't seem to work out. Whenever I try to pick up his back hooves to clean them out, he lifts his leg in warning, obviously threatening to kick. Oddly enough, he also does this if we groom past his rib cage, even with a soft bristle brush, but we can rub him down with our hands there and he's fine. The farrier can easily trim his front hooves, but can't do the back because of this behaviour. He was trained and owned by the amish, and we bought him from a kill buyer, so we have no history besides the fact that he's supposed to be 8. The vet has looked at him and can find no reasons that any of this would cause him pain. When he does it, I say "NO!" loudly, and he drops his foot, but will do it again as soon as I resume what I was doing. For reading all of this, I will include a picture of him  Any advice on the cause, or how to deter it would be appreciated!


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## CdnCremello (Sep 8, 2012)

Whoops, here ya go.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Voice isn't enough. If he raises his foot you need to make him regret ever thinking about doing so. Give him a good solid smack, chase him until he's sorry. Let him know that you WILL NOT stand for that, because a horse who kicks is incredibly dangerous. Every time. He'll stop after not too long, because he'll start to understand that YOU are the lead horse, not him.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

ITA with Shoebox, even THINKING about kicking anyone needs to be the biggest mistake this horse has ever made in his life. If the voice correction was sufficient you would no longer be dealing with this behavior.....


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## wetrain17 (May 25, 2011)

It sounds like this horse would benefit from some solid ground work.
I would be more apt to stick in him a round pen and get him moving everytime he threatened you on this one. This sounds like it will take more than once or twice to desensitize this horse so I would avoid smacking him everytime. However, if you ask him to move and he kicks out, then yes, I would give him a good hard crack with whatever is in my hand, (usually a lead rope).


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

What happens if, when he lifts his leg you grab the foot?

Some horses will loft the leg fast and high when they think you want to pick its feet and when the hoof is not held they will look as if they were going to kick out?

If he is genuinely trying to kick then I would first desensitise him with the 'hand'. A bamboo pole/stick about 5' long with a stuffed glove attached to one end. You can stand back by his shoulder and rub the 'hand' all down his legs. If he does kick then you can do one of two things, the first is the whack him with the pole or rapidly push the hand down the inside of the other leg. 
When he is use to this and you can touch him with your hands down his leg get a long soft rope and place that around the pasterns and ask him to pick his leg up whilst you are standing by his shoulder. If he lifts it just a couple of inches lower it immediately. If he kicks keep pulling it up and only let it down when he stops.

Your farrier cannot be a lot of good as they should have been able to sort the problem and shown you how.


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## CdnCremello (Sep 8, 2012)

Right now we're only doing groundwork with him. He was a buggy horse, and I'm not riding him until his groundwork is solid. We don't have a roundpen where we board, just an arena that isn't secure enough to let him go in. Every weekend I go out, bring him in from the field, groom him, walk and trot him in hand, making sure he's conscious of my space and stopping because I'm stopping (and because I say "whoa"). Then I lunge him on both sides, going through his transitions. Then we go back to lead line and do trot poles, do some work with getting him to back up when I wiggle the rope (which is not his favourite, but he does it). 

What other ground work exercises would you recommend? The trainer is also the BO, and she works with him twice a week. I was more wondering if anyone had some insight as to what in his former training/life would have caused this glitch, because it's out of character for him. However, I will start giving him a smack and see if it makes a difference, it could be what he needs, and we need to be able to clean his feet, as he lives outside 24/7, not to mention the various scenarios in which being able to access his feet is vital.

Thanks for the suggestions, keep them coming!


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## CdnCremello (Sep 8, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> What happens if, when he lifts his leg you grab the foot?
> 
> Some horses will loft the leg fast and high when they think you want to pick its feet and when the hoof is not held they will look as if they were going to kick out?
> 
> ...



He puts his hoof back down and won't lift it, and then does it again. The trainer and farrier were the first ones to see it happen, and I trust that they recognize when a horse is threatening to kick. To be honest, I've never been there when the farrier is there, I live an hour away and drive there Saturday and Sunday. He seems pretty good, and came highly recommended. He usually does my guys when he's on a call there anyway, do you think it would be beneficial for me to try to be there next time he's out? I will print out the hand suggestion and bring it with, it sounds like a good solution for working with this problem, without getting myself kicked. Thanks!


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## Janna (Apr 19, 2012)

Could use a rope. Get a. Rope looped around and pick it up with the rope so if he kicks it can't get you. Just follow his foot and let him kick. Hell quit eventually. Soon as he quits, put it back down, then (using the rope still) put pressure to lift back up

Repeat till you can pick it up without him kicking


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## CdnCremello (Sep 8, 2012)

Thanks for taking the time to reply . So in this case, would I just have a helper hold him while I do this, or would it be better to put him in crossties? There are crossties in the arena, so I could clip him up there, have a helper on hand watching him, and rope him (I'm assuming around the pastern?), let him kick if he's going to. Up to this point, he just threatens and never carries through. Repeat this until he learns that a)kicking isn't going to stop me from picking up his feet and b) there's nothing to be afraid of in the first place?

In case anyone is interested, I've asked the trainer to help me on the weekend and evaluate how I've been doing everything. I worked with horses long ago, but they were mostly turn-key ranch horses. I wasn't looking to get a rescue horse, but I did, and I've been putting a lot of time and money into doing right by him. My barn came highly recommended, and I trust the barn owner's advice on many things. I'll be asking her what she recommends as well, but there is such a wealth of information here that I thought I'd get some suggestions here too.


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## Janna (Apr 19, 2012)

Don't tie him. 

Either you or someone hold him. Hell probably move his hindquarters around if you keep his head still,just let him... Let him kick. As long as he can't get that rope off his leg, he's not winning and I've never had one not give up.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Are you certain he's threatening to kick or is he lifting his leg in readiness because he knows you are going to ask for it? If he does kick at you, this is an easy fix. Get him out where you can safely lunge him. Take you whip and pick with you. Have him trot 3 or four circles then draw him and and put your hand on his back then walk toward the hind leg. If he kicks at all, grab the whip and wave it at him and chase him out to lunge like you intend to kill him. Have his circle 3 times at a brisk trot., no doddly trot. No canter eighter. Again bring him in a repeat to pick up his hoof. Be sure your left hand slides down his back and hip so he knows where you are. Their rearward sight is poor. Again if he kicks, send him out again and make him work. Most figure this out after the second time lunging but some take a third time. He's now learned he can cooperate or he'll have to work. Pick his feet in the same place for the next week. He may test you again so be sure to use the lunge line and have the whip handy.


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## Breella (May 26, 2012)

Time and patience. I've had Topaz since August and I still can't pick his back feet. He's been abused pretty bad in the past. Keep touching him, reward with whatever you are rewarding with (treats, affection, et) I can finally get Topaz to let the farrier trim and care for his rear hooves if I am standing by his head.


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

I'm with fox hunter and saddlebag on this. If he hasn't kicked out (I skimmed and didn't see where you said he did) I honestly think he's picking his feet up for you and should not be scolded for it. Actually you should be happy! We have 2 that do that and it's a godsend. You mention Amish, they don't have the same ummm, tactics as the average pleasure rider. Lol. But if the horse is Amish broke I'd highly doubt it's wanting to kick. Y'all may just be going about it different then the horse is used to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waleybean (Jan 20, 2013)

Is he okay with you just touching his back legs? If not start with a prop like a very long feather duster, this is what I did with my boy when we first started working on lifting his feet for picking out. He used to be very unhappy and tried to move around if I tried to touch his legs before I did this. Show it to him, take it away, then bring it back so he can see it again. Then each time move it closer until it touches him, start somewhere like his shoulder then gradually across to his rump then move down to the leg then the foot. The idea is if the horse stands still you take the prop away. If he moves you hold the item there until he stands still.

Then once he has accepted the prop use your hands instead. I started by just touching my boy's lower back leg and said "up" each time I did it. First I had to put some pressure on to get him to lift but even if it is only for a second and you are the one controlling the lifting and putting back down, saying "down" when you do, the horse will get it eventually. Back feet are always harder to lift and pick out because they need more support than the front and if he's a big boy his feet will be pretty big and heavy.  Wear a riding hat to be on the safe side.  

You could also try clicker training which is quicker. The method I used took about a week and a half for my boy to get the idea with the back feet, so that I was fully able to lift the hoof and pick it out. But as I had already done the same on his front feet which took longer originally due to him being shy around the feet, he learnt quicker on the back feet being used to my handling his front hooves already. Even if your boy only holds his back foot up for a second, gradually increase the amount of time, but make sure you are the one putting the foot down before his is pulling it away from you.


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## PaintedFury (Aug 18, 2010)

Personally, I would try the hand method mentioned earlier before the rope method. From your description he threatens more from ignorance then meanness. Take the time to get him used to being touched *everywhere* with it, then when he calms about having his legs touched with it, start working your way back there with your hands. Take your time and work in an approach/retreat methodology. Gradually work your way back there and down his legs. Making sure to retreat before he can react with a threat. Just go a little farther each time before retreating. 

I understand that you can only get to the barn on weekends, but this is really something that needs to done daily for a while until he is comfortable with having his rear legs handled and his feet picked/trimmed or whatever done to them.

You also mentioned that he does not like to be brushed behind the rib cage with even the softest brush, but does not mind if you touch him with your hand. Have you ever thought that maybe his skin is most sensitive there and that is why he doesn't appreciate being brushed there. Just a thought, about something that stuck out to me in your original post.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

First, GET SOME HELP from a trainer.
This is where I totally agree with Clinton Anderson's theory of controlling your horse's behavior by moving his feet.
A horse's feet are like a dog's teeth. It is their first line of defense if cornered, and we know that a horse would prefer to run away than fight. Those back feet are particularly dangerous bc a horse's motor is from the rear, and they can inflict the worst damage kicking.
Something else about training horses to be safe for you and good for the farrier. You must take it in stages. I really like using a rope to pull the foot forward.
I am working on perfect foot behavior this winter with my 6yo QH. While I spot clean his stall every day I spend 5-10 minutes training. I start picking up the back foot that is cocked, and I rub him and make a fuss. I will also pick up the front foot, same side and do the same. I don't even bother to pick the hooves out. I want him to "offer" his feet to me. 
OP, this will take time but it is worth the time spent to retrain him.


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

My dad has a horse with this issue (the horse was a kicker before we got him, just to clarify). I hate dealing with this kind of stuff, so I don't mess with his feet.

Our farrier uses a soft lead rope on his back legs. He pulls the foot forward, sets it up on the stand, and trims. However, the horse can still kick forward, so the farrier is still really cautious. 

For my young horses, I first rubbed a stock whip on their legs, then used soft ropes. Once they didn't mind the rope, I would apply a bit of pressure, and ask them to just lift the foot slightly. Then I got them used to my hands touching their legs, and finally asked them to pick up their feet with my hands, an inch at a time.

Personally, I would rather jump on a salty green horse than deal with an older one that threatens to kick when you work with its feet. I would suggest being there next time your farrier is out. Good luck and be careful.


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## LisaG (Nov 11, 2012)

With the rope method, be aware that the horse can kick forward. And also, if he kicks back, he could rip your shoulder pretty good if you hang on (and you don't really want to let go, or it will be a win for the horse). 

I can't remember what my farrier's advice on this was exactly - maybe others will have tips to make sure he doesn't rip your shoulder to shreds.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Quit the wiggling to back horse up as that is counterproductive.

As for feet? Moving him around only tells him he is to move. Which is not what you want him to do, not to mention it is a huge waste of time.

Get after him. Can use whip handle to rub him down, but I also wonder if your handling skills need to be readjusted. You may be allowing him to get by with things, and he is testing to see what else he can get away with.

I would not treat him either. It will not make the horse like you, or respect you.

And why if this is happening, is the farrier not using a twitch? That would come closer to getting this stopped than monkeying around will.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I have a feeling he has no intentions to kick and is picking them up for you. Amish do not tolerate kicking, at all. I've seen Amish buggy horses tied up in the barn. Three to a 12x12 stall and many tied in the aisle way while others brought horses in and out of the stalls, not one horse even lifted a leg up.
One gelding they had was used in a presentation on trimming (on of their worse horses), and he picked the foot up as soon as you got to that shoulder/hip. I thought the horse was planning to kick as well, and he never did.

Both my mares (ST and Lucky) either pick it up when I get there or pick it up rather swiftly when I give a squeeze. One of the leasers thought Luck was going to kick for the first time, but she never did. Lucky has horrible arthritis in her hocks, and I have to go slow with her or she'll yank it back out of pain.

I'd suggest standing to the side and picking the foot up. The general horse will kick out as opposed to the side the first kick (as per my experience), so you'll have time to drop and dodge out of the way and beat his *** for it.
The Amish I know will beat a horse for kicking, and none of their seasoned horses will even think about kicking, in any situation.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Iseul said:


> I have a feeling he has no intentions to kick and is picking them up for you. Amish do not tolerate kicking, at all. I've seen Amish buggy horses tied up in the barn. Three to a 12x12 stall and many tied in the aisle way while others brought horses in and out of the stalls, not one horse even lifted a leg up.
> One gelding they had was used in a presentation on trimming (on of their worse horses), and he picked the foot up as soon as you got to that shoulder/hip. I thought the horse was planning to kick as well, and he never did.
> 
> Both my mares (ST and Lucky) either pick it up when I get there or pick it up rather swiftly when I give a squeeze. One of the leasers thought Luck was going to kick for the first time, but she never did. Lucky has horrible arthritis in her hocks, and I have to go slow with her or she'll yank it back out of pain.
> ...


I agree. Has anyone tried to take the leg when he had it raised?


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## Thrill Ride (Feb 18, 2013)

My horse Storm is kind of the same. Storm was with people who were mean to her, then with someone who didn't discipline her. I am medium person. I don't beat my horses for doing wrong, but I don't do nothing. With her back legs she tries to kick. I had a neighbor help me once. He talked slowly and calmly while rubbing her leg for a minute. He tried picking up her leg and he said No in a voice that wasn't yelling but stern, he kept rubbing her leg and finally got the foot. 

I usually try that way with her, but if that doesn't work after a few times if she tries to kick I smack her in the hindqaurters, say NO, and push her hindquarters away and make her turn a few circles. I try again. If she does the same thing then the same thing happens. If you can get to pick up the hoof for a second, put it down and give a TON of praise. Its going to be a slow process. Try looking some Clinton Anderson videos up. I know some are total anti Clinton Anderson but you could take a look at his methods. I watched his method of making them spin if they try to kick but he is of course more rough. So I toned it down and I use that method. Try the calm approach, and try the immediately moving their hindquarters approach.


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## JenniMay (Aug 17, 2011)

Iseul said:


> I have a feeling he has no intentions to kick and is picking them up for you.


 
I made this mistake with my Belgian mare! She wasn't good about picking her feet up AT ALL when I first got her. My trainer & I worked with her religiously (& our farrier is SO patient & wonderful!) & did clicker training (I know---it's somewhat controversial, but it really worked for us) to help her with this. It totally worked! 

We got her to 'point' her hind feet so I could clean her feet. This is how I did it for many months & one day (recently), I grabbed onto her feathers & lifted. She lifted her foot up & I got nervous! It took me a few times to realize she's picking them up! When it finally clicked for me, I praised the hell out of her! 

She is awesome with picking up her feet now...I can basically point at her foot & she'll lift before I even bend down (which is good for a 1500 lb horse!). She is really good for the farrier too now! He always comments about how she is a different horse these days!


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## Liligirl (Jun 9, 2012)

My young Standardbred looks like he is threatening to kick when you ask for his back feet. First time I did his feet I got a heck of a scare. 

My farrier said sometimes people are lazy and they teach the horse to pick up their feet by tapping/hitting them with a stick. This teaches them to jerk their foot up fast and high.

He showed me how to blocked it with my hand when asking and making him give it to me nicely. It's been about 7 months now and he is a lot better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## moniegx3 (Feb 18, 2013)

Hobble one front to the back you're not picking up. he physically can't kick. eventually he'll give up.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

moniegx3 said:


> Hobble one front to the back you're not picking up. he physically can't kick. eventually he'll give up.


Horrible advice. OP please do not do this.
If he is threatneing to kick, making him regret even thinking about it is a far better option, shout, smack him, anything to make him regret it


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## ctomsey (May 25, 2009)

A bit different, I had a horse that had significant problem picking up his back feet. Kicked me good once in the knee. Finally figured out he had a "hurt" problem and couldn't have them picked up and out to the side. Had to make sure they were picked up and back. Once this was figured out he has been good as gold.


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## aldebono (Mar 15, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> Are you certain he's threatening to kick or is he lifting his leg in readiness because he knows you are going to ask for it? If he does kick at you, this is an easy fix. Get him out where you can safely lunge him. Take you whip and pick with you. Have him trot 3 or four circles then draw him and and put your hand on his back then walk toward the hind leg. If he kicks at all, grab the whip and wave it at him and chase him out to lunge like you intend to kill him. Have his circle 3 times at a brisk trot., no doddly trot. No canter eighter. Again bring him in a repeat to pick up his hoof. Be sure your left hand slides down his back and hip so he knows where you are. Their rearward sight is poor. Again if he kicks, send him out again and make him work. Most figure this out after the second time lunging but some take a third time. He's now learned he can cooperate or he'll have to work. Pick his feet in the same place for the next week. He may test you again so be sure to use the lunge line and have the whip handy.



Wouldn't this just make the horse think, every time you go to the haunches he needs to move out? If this horse is trying to kick, I don't think he knows what he is suppose to be doing. IMHO, desensitizing needs to be happening.

My mare also picks her hind feet up high and tenses or stretches them up really high under her belly. I just have to let her relax the foot back down. Her mother also did this.


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## CdnCremello (Sep 8, 2012)

For anyone wondering how this turned out, 

We eventually found out what was going on. My BO talked to a couple people that worked with Amish people and their horses and learned that they beat their horses severely for moving their feet when they are being worked with (I'm assuming not ALL Amish people do!). My gelding, as it turns out, was doing the leg lifting to test us and see what we would do to him. My trainer corrected him with a crop twice when he lifted a leg and he hasn't tried it with her since. We made sure we had a crop and when we took him out and worked with him, we corrected him in the same way, and he hasn't tried again. He also visibly relaxed when he found out that this is all we're going to do. He was so full of nervous energy before, so this is a huge breakthrough for us. 

Thanks for everyone's input, I really do appreciate people taking the time to read and respond!


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## CdnCremello (Sep 8, 2012)

Also,

The reason I never used lunging as punishment is because right now, that's his main form of exercise and he LOVES it! He loves to have something to do. If we take him out for any reason and he doesn't get lunged he seems almost annoyed and stares at the arena longingly, poor guy.


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