# Packing



## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

A fun thread for a rarer topic. Have you ever trained a pack horse/donkey/mule? What was the hardest part of training? How about the best part?

Pictures, if you have them!

I'll start by saying I have trained one horse successfully to pack. A bay tobiano Mustang named Trigger. He was a sweet boy who was very willing, though stubborn at times. At the same time, I was training his pasture mate, a Kiger Mustang named Corona, to be the lead horse. The owner left the decision as to who would lead and who would pack up to me; the dynamic and work ethic between the two decided the order for me, as both were solidly built and fairly level-headed.

The hardest part for me was teaching Trigger to pony. I resisted the urge to wind my lead rope around my saddle horn and pull, so instead I rode Corona bareback while exercising an approach and retreat method. This method proved itself to work and soon I had Trigger packed up and ponying on a loose rope with Corona on a loose rein, venturing into BLM forest trails. 

The best part was finally breaking through to Trigger and getting two light, happy, responsive horses packing in a month. 

Cheers,
RSS


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I would also be interested in learning more about packing. Its a dumb question, but how did you learn? I know enough about it to know I don't know enough. The issue of weighing a pack and balancing. Other then taking a summer being camp whip is there a way to learn to pack?


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Honestly, I combined my knowledge and experience in other areas, ie ponying, teaching to lead, teaching to hold a rider/weight, etc to train these boys. The owner had his own gear, and I worked a fair bit on getting them both used to the pack and weight as well as things like tarps/etc in case of emergency. Really, it was by the grace if God that all of it came together to work out. 

In the end, both boys could pack well, and only needed the miles put on them to polish them up. 

It was quite an experience, learning how to train a pack horse, and working on getting them to work as a team. 

Cheers,
RSS
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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The first guy I ever worked for while I was in school was a packer.(the same guy I started Mustangs for). We packed for the Forest Service trail crews and hunters. I learned a little about mules and packing..it was fun. That was a good way to start colts, pack them first. And it was great if we didn't feel like working colts at home, just jump a couple of horses and colts in the trailer and a pack saddle or two and go fishing for the day in some high mountain lake!
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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Cowchick, what was the hardest part of teaching a horse to pack?
I have still yet to go on a full ride with others and pack horses - I would like to sometime. Fishing! Fun! 
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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Like I said I learned just a little bit about it, but teaching a young horse to pack was no different than teaching one to be saddled and accepting weight. And we didn't have any older veteran horses for packing. They were all mules, we just started the saddle horses that way. But I did notice that mules have more of a sense of where their packs stick out than a horse for going around trees and obstacles. Granted we didn't have any horses that packed for any length of time, perhaps with horses it comes with experience as well.

I will say with a colt learning crossing water can be exciting...having a good solid saddle horse to lead him from is key. Some didn't want to cross, then they get drug in or all of a sudden they take a big jump and spook themselves.( I never put my good fishing pole on a colt!)

I would advise taking your time and start with small trips on easy trails. You will get hooked! Nothing beats a high mountain lake during the dog days of summer 
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## LynnF (Jun 1, 2011)

I like to pack almost every horse I train, it is great for them to learn to stand while having a tarp thrown over their back. It also teaches them to be careful not to rub on things (such as trees or the arena fence) when they have something or someone on their back because the packs boxes don't give when they hit something. 
Usually the hardest part of teaching a horse to pack is getting them used to giant orange boxes coming at them. Also getting them used to britching and a breast collar is important if they have never had one on beofre. Having them stand still long enough to tie your diamond (I am slow at it so it is not really fair to expect them to stand that long at first. More experienced packers can pack much quicker) is a bit of a challenge sometimes.
I find packing is a great tool for horses that buck with either a saddle or rider as you just fill the boxes with water and let them go to town in the roundpen or arena. They soon discover that bucking with two boxes full of water is hard work.. and they get wet.. it stops them from bucking pretty quick! 
The most important thing to remember is to make sure your pack saddle is on straight and in the correct position and that it doesn't slip to either side when you tie your boxes on and tighten them. Do your cinches tight enough that they won't slip (much tighter than you would do a normal saddle) and also that they are not pinching or slipping into an incorrect position. Ensure that you have enough rope to tie your diamond but not so much that there will be a long tail that can get caught up and cause a wreck. If you are going to be putting on a top pack ensure that it is well balanced so as not to put more weight on one side or the other. Ensure your tarp covers everything so nothing sticks out or gets caught on trees and causes a wreck. 
There are weekend courses or summer camps on packing, just look them up online. I think the best way to learn if you can is find an old outfitter who has done it a million times and just go out and learn.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Hi Lynn! 

I have never tied a diamond; do you have instructions or know where to look to learn?

The boys I trained had big orange bags on their pack saddle as opposed to boxes. I thought this was an even greater opportunity to work on tolerance and patience, as the bags made all kinds of noise and when empty were more prone to move around. 

Also, can you explain a "top pack"?

Cheers,
RSS
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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

There are 2 excellent books that have photos of every hitch (from packing salt blocks to every kind of panniars that can be bought or made). I am sure both are out of print but may be available on E-Bay or Amazon.

One is 'Horses, Hitches and Rocky Trails' by Joe Back. 

The other is 'Horse Packing in Pictures' by Francis Davis. 

The first one is the one that taught me all of the hitches back in the 60s when no guy would show a 'girl' how to pack a horse. [Thank goodness there aren't quite as many male chauvinists around.] I took out many pack trips and hunting groups into the Colorado Wilderness areas and did a pretty good job of it. I used to pack a lot of young horses and mules, especially if they were already pretty spoiled when they came to me. I did have a couple of spectacular wrecks. One included picking up camp gear and groceries along a 5 mile stretch of trail. Finally found the horse -- minus all packed gear --so tangled up in his breeching that he could not move. 

The 'top pack' is usually a tent or big tarp folded up and laid on top of the panniars in the center of the horse's back. The diamond hitch or double diamond is what holds everything on. It is made from a 30 foot rope with a lash cinch on one end. It goes around the horse and pack and then catches every corner and holds the whole mess together.


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm training two! Minina, a pony of 13.1hh (not as butt-high as she looks in this photo; her front feet are in a hole that she's just been digging...)










and Canelo, a Percheron cross of around 14.2hh:









Neither has packed before. Being from the UK, and the horses being in Chile, I've had to depend a lot on books and various out-of-the-way websites. I have used these books a lot:
Blue Creek Outfitting book
Le site officiel d'Emile Brager, cavalier au long cours - Le livre "Techniques du voyage cheval"
Amazon.com: The Cavalry Horse and his Pack: Col. John J. Boniface: Books

and I have found some useful things on the websites for Outfitters Supply (plus stalking them with questions by email). Useful knots are dealt with in the Blue Creek book, and I learned other ones from the internet. 

We bought one pack-saddle and decided to make the other, in fact we more or less decided to buy one set of pack equipment, and manufacture the others according to our ideas. 

This is Minina sporting the purchased pack saddle, home-made pack pad (not finished in this photo), home-rigged double girths and a breast-collar that isn't the final version (it was just doing service):









and Canelo in his rig at some point during its development (basic saddle bars adapted for pack-rigging; Y-straps for the girth; pack pad just getting started for size; purchased harness):








(please excuse nice poo-pile... :lol

We started with basic leading and ground-work, moving hips over, mostly, and backing up. We practice ponying very often, since we have four horses to bring in and the top pasture is around a mile away. Generally, Minina will probably pony with Quillay, my boyfriend's riding horse, and Canelo will come along with Luna, my horse. Canelo is still learning that ponying with another horse doesn't mean 'lead from the front', but Minina is a gem. 

We have packed both of them very lightly and I swear by taking them for long walks in woods: after a couple of times of running their bags into a tree and getting poked in the ribs, they pay more attention. We have loaded the packs with all kinds of things, including rattly metal things and rustly tarps. 

I second making sure that the girths are done up properly: we first rigged Canelo with a double girth as Minina has in the photo above. He didn't move a muscle as we were tacking him up, even with pad flapping and straps flying everywhere. But as soon as we untied him and went to walk a few steps, he exploded, ripped the rope out of my boyfriend's hand, went on a bucking frenzy coming horribly close to the support posts of the house verandah - and the pick-up - and then galloped off in the direction of the woods and his pasture. Of course I had all the visions that everyone has - he'll wrap his foot in the rope and go flying, he'll try and roll to get the saddle off and he'll break his back, he'll get a branch caught between him and the saddle trying to rub it off and he'll lacerate his back, etc. etc. - but finally we just found him standing peacefully at the broken bridge that leads to his northern pasture. The saddle was still in place and just a few leaves here and there. He led back just fine and didn't give a problem since. 

My next objective is to teach both of them to ground tie (in fact, all four of them) and to be OK with a top-tarp being thrown over to cover everything. Plus, we have to get better at our knots.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Anna, this is an awesome contribution! Wow! I look forward to learning about your progress! It is making me itchy to train some more pack horses!

Have you found any added or lessened stability with the Y-cinch opposed to two cinches on your purchased rig? The boys I trained had a wooden frame saddle with two cinches. We used a nice lightweight yet thick saddle pad, didn't have a real proper packing pad. 

Does anyone wrap/use boots on the legs of your pack horse? Seems a good shock absorber could be useful on long haul packs. ?

Cheers,
RSS


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Also: What do "you" (anyone) use when packing as far as headgear? Rope halter? Nylon? Cavesson with D-ring on the nose? Combination?

I used plain jane rope halters on the boys; under Corona's headstall with rope in my pocket as a kind of mecate. 

Cheers,
RSS


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

I think both cinch systems have their advantages. 
With the two-cinch, you don't have to cinch the front one as tight, and the back cinch has a very slight crupper action to stop forward motion of the saddle. 
With the Y-rig, we've got the advantage of being able to move the position of the cinch if needed. This is good for Canelo because he's got what seems to me to be the typical delicate skin that roans have (is this just me? Or is it actually the case?)
Plus, Canelo doesn't really have the belly that I think they need to pull off the two cinch approach - Minina has that nice pony grass belly and it all holds together in the right place. Though I have to say, in the photo above she's pregnant and we didn't know it yet... let's see what her belly's like when she doesn't have a baby in it! :lol:

Our pack pads are just a big rectangle of thick wool felt in a removable canvas cover. Actually, it's two bits of felt so there's nothing actually that touches the spine. The pad is cut-out over the withers, and there's leather reinforcement/protection on the corners and on the wither edging. The leather is more to protect the horses' skin against my seaming than it is to protect the canvas... They have a rectangle of vet-bed under that for sweat-protection.

This photo shows some fabrication going on, or at least shows where it goes on - I think we were mostly on the beer by this point. But in the background you can see the nice red fleecy blanket (courtesy of our flight over ) that became the underside of the canvas cover for Canelo's pad. 

For headgear, I'm currently debating this as well, for our trip. Up till now we've used a plain vanilla nylon headcollar. But until now, we've only been working in v quiet places. I am wondering whether, when we start our trip, we might want something with potentially a bit more control, in case a massive earthquake happens while we're crossing a bridge in the middle of a motorcycle parade, that kind of thing  So I was wondering whether to make / get something like the one at the bottom of this page: Pack Saddles & Accessories. Hobbles, Panniers, Top Packs, and More! - you've got the option of using it like a bog-standard headcollar but if you think the horse might need a bit more reminding, then there are options. Or maybe a rope halter - but I know that Mr-weird-skin-Canelo probably won't do well in that. 

Does anyone have any experience with the draw halters?


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Very interesting! I am curious how the purchased rig holds up on back strain as it seems to look like the panels move? Curious if static positioning helps weight distribution vs variable width positioning, if that makes sense?

I have not used a draw halter, though I fear it could work something like a "be nice" halter, which applies increased pressure as a horse pulls against it; scary to me! I think a pull around the muzzle like that, even slightly, could do more damage than good. Purely speculating, though.


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

The purchased tree has movable bars but not adjustable width, though those do exist. The bars move against the back of the horse with the movement of the deadweight. I had my doubts about this but the experiment so far seems to be going well, and it has to be said that the sheer proportion of good reviews of those saddles was pretty amazing. 

re. the draw halter, I am currently debating the same thing. One of our riding horses tends to lean a bit on the halter when you're leading (but never on the bit/bridle when riding). I do occasionally think that if she makes it uncomfortable for herself, then she would correct herself. If the pressure increases because of something that the horse itself does, then is that not the aim? They can seek a release of pressure by doing the right thing. 

But like I said, I really don't know. I think the important thing is to teach the horse to pony properly all the time. The draw halter is there for emergencies, not to rely on. A bit like some mechanical hackamores I suppose - you force yourself to have v light hands because in 99% of cases you know you have the training to not need the hack. For the 1%, you're glad that you have the brakes if necessary. 

I'm rambling...


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

I think you are dead on there with the draw halter. In the case of a horse who leans on the lead, I would be inclined to use it, though I am still apprehensive about the possibility of a freak out. I guess it would just be a game of chance if that were an option. Have you considered something like a cavesson with D-ring on top? 








I think perhaps it would discourage her from leaning, as she would have to pull down pretty hard - flip side could be that she uses it to hold her head up entirely. Hmmm ?

As for the rig, what I meant was what you said, not width but the adjustable bars. I am curious if the static bars of the built rig offer as much relief? Interesting study 

Cheers!
RSS
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## traildancer (Oct 27, 2010)

The double rigging in your photo is curious. I haven't seen cinches done up like that on double-cinch packsaddles. What I have seen is either a double cinch (woven together in the center but with two separate cinch rings on each side) or two separate cinches with the rear cinch overlapping the forward cinch. In the photo it looks to me like that configuration is asking for a buck.

Your horse tolerates this with a load?


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## traildancer (Oct 27, 2010)

A-ha!

I clicked on the link for M. Brager and read some of his stuff. And there was a photo with a horse cinched like you have yours. Interesting.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

traildancer: I am curious what these cinches you describe look like. The pack saddle I used was like the one Anna uses with two cinches, and seemed no different to me than a rear cinch on a Western saddle. So long as it is on the belly and not the flank, it seems okay?

Cheers,
RSS


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## traildancer (Oct 27, 2010)

If you go to outfitterssupply.com and type "pack cinch" in the search box, you will see what I use. When I first started packing we used two individual cinches. You would tighten the front cinch and then lay the back cinch over it and tighten it. That would be with a sawbuck packsaddle. The Decker packsaddle only uses one cinch.


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

TD, that's interesting : the overlapping cinch is what the Chilean saddles use. There's a normal one at about 7/8, and then there's a surcingle girth that goes over the seat and overlaps the cinch underneath. Actually I have to say it kind of annoys me, there's a lump of latigo underneath the knee, or two buckles : either way, it's right where you don't really want it. But you get used to it. 

The double cinch that is on Minina, I see that it's something the Canadian packers use a lot. I think it's adapted to the configuration of your horse - if s/he's got a nice hay belly (which is what I want in my trip horses) then it'll hold on just fine. There's a strap between the two to stop the rear cinch slipping back into her groin. Canelo (the draft cross) doesn't like the double cinch - see my story about the buck-fest . I still want him to be able to do it, though, so we're working on lots of desensitisation. But Minina, with sacking out and lots of preparation accepts that more readily than she likes having a tight cinch. She takes a load with it and it doesn't bother her. So I just went with what they seemed to prefer. 

RSS, the cavesson with a ring on it is interesting. I was also wondering about rigging a 'triangle' of either rope or bungee cord between the two side rings of the headcollar so that the lead rope attaches to the point of the triangle. That way the headcollar doesn't twist round according to what side the horse is on - but if they're not leaning on the halter, that doesn't happen anyway. Hohum. Your cavesson idea is neater. 
It's funny, because I was thinking about trying the Micklem bridle on that riding horse that I was talking about, and there's a ring on the cavesson for lunging purposes... 

Re. the rig, we'll have to see for the stability. We tried both saddles on both horses, and although Canelo looks longer than Minina, the purchased saddle bridged between the back of his shoulder and his ribs, so was an automatic no-go. Whereas the other saddle bars fit him almost as though they were made for him... I'll let you know!


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Hate to resurrect an old thread, but I am very curious how things are going for everyone here! I am looking into investing in some packing gear soon, if only for training. 

So, hows the packing?!
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## TrailheadSupply (Sep 6, 2012)

I teach packing at clinics and at the college, what do you want to know ?

Andy


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## AnnaHalford (Mar 26, 2012)

Going well, RSS. 
After we had to postpone the trip because two horses were pregnant - neither caried to term - we´ve been back in Chile since October and should be leaving on the trip-proper on December 27th, touch wood. 

We´ve been doing increasingly long training trips, culminating in a four-day, 85-mile round last week (following on from two three-day ones back to back with one day off in between each).

Canelo and Minina are excellent, now carrying around 40 kgs each (which is everything we have plus either 6 days total autonomy for the horses (hay and grain) or a longer period of just grain. They pony well in their rope halters with nothing extra although Canelo does have a draw halter with fleece lining for his weird delicate roany skin. I switch them so that he doesn´t rub too much and depending on where we´re walking (the draw halter was pretty useful when we crossed three miles of green oats ). Minna drifts out to the left a little if she´s asked to walk immediately behind rather than to the right, so we´re still watching that, but Canelo follows like a dream - apart from when he nibbles Luna´s tail for fun. 

No problems with sore backs or sore points for the two packers, although we´re still working on fixing all the padding layers so that the bottom one doesn´t work its way out. However, we always unsaddle and re-do things if we see something is going awry. Both saddles are working well with no probs about stability: we pack low, though, and don´t exceed more than 20% of the total weight on top, if that, which probably helps. The double girth system that Minina uses has not had any ill-effects. 

We haven´t been so happy with our soft packs which have taken a beating and needed repairs / reinforcement already, but our home-made slings which pack using drysacks slung inside are brilliant. We have also had to make some alterations to Canelo´s harness to avoid friction points. 

The riding horses are super entertaining because they have learned the position the packhorses are supposed to be in and get very shirty with the packers if they drift out. Quillay can get Minina back in line with just an ear-flick, but Luna as the natural bottom of the four has to work harder to get Canelo to pay attention, going as far as baring her teeth or getting a little kick in. 

Some pics : 

Canelo and his slings. He can carry up to 50kg grain, 25kg on each side in a drysack. 









Minina packs our equipment and clothes, etc. As Canelo´s charge decreases (cos the horses are eating it), we swap out bits of equipment with Minina so that she´s not always carrying loads. 









This is the first of four river crossings and the shallowest (we are glad we have drysacks!)









There are more photos on the facebook page in my sig. Hope to have some of your news and see how the rest of you are going!


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

I've worked with, and trained, pack horses for years. All of our horses are packed before they are ridden. I think it's fantastic for them - learning to tolerate a potentially noisy pack, having trees bang off the side of boxes, learning to pony anywhere etc etc. One downside.. if you have a bucker. They can almost always throw the boxes, which can teach bad habits for sure.


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

RunSlideStop said:


> Does anyone wrap/use boots on the legs of your pack horse? Seems a good shock absorber could be useful on long haul packs. ?
> 
> Cheers,
> RSS


Be interesting to see if anyone says differently, but I think that due to constantly going through mud, water, sand, etc that boots would be more detrimental than good. 

Plus, like I just said, I've used pack horses in the bush my entire life and know many people who do too, and I've never seen someone use boots or wraps.


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## SnowCowgirl (Jun 3, 2010)

AnnaHalford, just curious, why did you get off and wade the river?


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