# TB Stallion - neck / chest critique



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Super critical is completely appropriate and SHOULD be the go to for looking at a stallion.

I agree with what you're saying but can't say much more lol


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Also long front canon bones.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

He has a steep shoulder and a poorly placed point of shoulder. Might run fast but I would not be 'chasing with this horse. Lay his shoulder back more and raise the point of shoulder and he would look fine. 

He is a bit downhill in build. 

That said, if he runs fast and can turn left (or right in Europe) and has won a lot of money he will be bred!


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Elana said:


> He has a steep shoulder and a poorly placed point of shoulder. Might run fast but I would not be 'chasing with this horse. Lay his shoulder back more and raise the point of shoulder and he would look fine.
> 
> He is a bit downhill in build.
> 
> That said, if he runs fast and can turn left (or right in Europe) and has won a lot of money he will be bred!


Thanks Elana, I thought his shoulder looked a bit choppy alright,

But yeah - he was champion 3yo in Europe and was very popular when first retired ... but his progeny never quite lived up to it on the racetrack, so his price has come right down and he gets far fewer mares these days, 

that's why I'm interested, he was an unbelievable racehorse, and has fantastic breeding characteristics, but was always out of my price range / abilty to get into him, but just a chance I could squeeze it now .. but I'd want to be very sure,

Here's two different sires, not quite as spectacular as the one above, more of a stamina influence (though I have plenty of that on the dam-side) ... though in fact they did both win the Breeders Cup Turf over 12f, 

How do you like these ones ? They are 'Milan' and 'Shirocco' 

If you had to choose ?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I can tell you right now that if you're actually asking it would be best to post a picture of the mare. We may all pick one then seeing your mare think it's not a great match and pick another.

I like Milan (I think) though I don't love the legs.

Photoshopped just doesn't do it for me and I also wonder what else they photoshopped besides the background.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Milan's got a good racing record himself and his progeny seem to be doing well - he's got some good breeding too
Shirocco had some good wins himself and retired sound, he looks to have sired some good horses including Michael Owens Brown Panther and 24 winners over jumps
What are you breeding for? - Racing or a competition/hunt horse?


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

In looking at these two, Milan has light gaskins and is light boned through the hocks and knees. His hocks are way up there too you know? His body looks good but he is fat which can hide a multitude of sins. I wish he looked more like the English Thoroughbred I like.. heavy boned. 

Shirocco is a nicer horse and less down hill in build. He has the best shoulder of the three and would do something over fences. His cannons are a bit light and a bit long. I like more substance and bone and I do not like how his feet have been done. 

Of course I could (and you could) go through the Stallion catalog and find better horses that are well beyond what anyone could afford! 

I too would like to see a nice photo of the dam. 

I will also qualify that I have said all of the above and NOT looked at progeny or progeny records or bloodlines.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

of the 3, I like the gray the best. he seems to have the best bone and pastern length.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Milan is actually sired by US TB Saddlers Wells so not your typical British/Irish horse. He's aimed at dual purpose breeding but was a flat racer hence the lighter build. He probably performed better himself at higher level than his progeny have
Milan | Stud Record | Bloodstock Stallion Book | Racing Post
Shirocco is the better horse of the two based on form and progeny - but again not a British/Irish horse. He's got German, US and Canadian bloodlines
I'd have expected him to be a more expensive stallion to use Shirocco | Stud Record | Bloodstock Stallion Book | Racing Post


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

LTG said:


> So this is a high-class fella ... but his neck seems to tie-in a bit low ? and I'm not sure what's going on with the lack of distinction between his chest and neck ...


Isn't that what they call a "nest" (neck+chest)? Like the horse equivalent to a cankle?


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> Milan is actually sired by US TB Saddlers Wells so not your typical British/Irish horse. He's aimed at dual purpose breeding but was a flat racer hence the lighter build. He probably performed better himself at higher level than his progeny have
> Milan | Stud Record | Bloodstock Stallion Book | Racing Post
> Shirocco is the better horse of the two based on form and progeny - but again not a British/Irish horse. He's got German, US and Canadian bloodlines
> I'd have expected him to be a more expensive stallion to use Shirocco | Stud Record | Bloodstock Stallion Book | Racing Post




We've a lot of great racehorses in Ireland who retire to stud for National Hunt at reasonable prices because the commercial market for flat sires is all about speed.

E.g. probably the best racehorse standing now is Fame and Glory 

Fame And Glory Horse Pedigree

He had 10f speed but is more associated with stamina so he goes to the National Hunt arm, despite being phenomenal as a racehorse;


Re: Shirocco - he started as a flat sire but his progeny needed time and he got very few over less than 10f so he went to National Hunt also.

Milan being a 14f horse was never going to cover flat mares, so though he's dual-purpose he really only does NH.


The best sires for National Hunt, out of interest, are below: Presenting and Robin des Champs, but unfortunately both are having difficulties with age, so the search is very much on for the successors,

I think the key to them is the beautifully shaped necks they have, really passes on to their progeny and helps with balance and jumping fences no end - exactly the problem I have with the grey Dalakhani.


The grey, Dalakhani, is a flat sire and has had G1 winners, but overall his progeny again are best over 10f+ and aren't precocious so he's lost a lot of his commercial appeal, .. that's why I might be able to sneak him,


I tried to find a decent photo of the mare, this is the best I could do, she's in foal in October there, she's 1992, very strong and a great constitution, was hindered in her racing career by a muscular imbalance but still won over fences and hurdles and has produced really well,


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> What are you breeding for? - Racing or a competition/hunt horse?



It's for racing. Specifically for sales, though always the chance to keep a filly.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Nice mare.
I wasn't crazy about the grey based on that pic but he was owned by the Aga Khan, has good racing blood and his son Reliable Man looks a super horse that's done well
This is a better photo
DALAKHANI - Conformation - Aga Khan Studs
Exciting Stallion prospect. Dual GR.1 Winner in both hemispheres
Reliable Man
Reliable Man | Reliable Man Stallion
When you breed for the racecourse you also need to think 'what will the horse do if its not fast enough' so you don't lose too much money


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

What a NICE mare!!

Curious to see what people say.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I wasn't crazy about the grey based on that pic but he was owned by the Aga Khan, has good racing blood and his son Reliable Man looks a super horse that's done well



This is exactly it ! ... we have a lot of Northern Dancer stallions available here, and thankfully that mare, and her best daughters are still outcrosses. Dalakhani would also be, and that's the real beauty of him. 

Also, he carries the Darshaan line which crossed very successfully with the same Northern Dancer line. So, his fillies actually sell for more than his colts.

And, yes, he has had excellent progeny on the flat. Conduit won the Breeders' Cup Turf for him I believe, and this year Integral was a dual Group 1 winner over 8f. Reliable Man was also a very good horse.

I just wonder, comparing him to the conformation photos of Presenting and Robin des Champs (who were so brilliant at breeding steeplechasers) would Dalakhani be good in that sphere also. 

Definitely he has breeding that is very desirable, that's what brings me to him. And he is tall, 16.2, but what about his 'nest' lol ?


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

One thing I did think is that your mare seems pretty solid in those areas ('nest' department lol). So while I didn't like the studs conformation persay I think he may be a better cross for your mare. I like the others more but don't see them crossing as nicely.

But that's what I DIDN'T say as I'm sure other people know more lol.


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Like the mare. Quite correct. 

Diddly, my dressage horse, is out of a northern dancer stallion called Albano. Not sure if you know him LTG. He was at stud here in Ireland though he's retired now.
I really like the temperament that Northern dancer lines tend to inherit. I have known a few and they were all very sweet horses.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Your mare is really lovely. A bit straight through the hocks but nice bone and nicely put together. 

I always look at this with a need for good blood and good conformation. That said, does your mare tend to throw her neck and shoulder to her offspring? That grey stud has a bunch of offspring out there. Does he tend to throw his front on those offspring? THAT should help answer your questions. 

Here is another thought. The best conformed horses are not always the winningest horses. In fact, there are many examples of quite the opposite (ugly, crooked legged winners). 

Sooo.. this is back in your corner with a need for a little more looking to think what the mare and what any stud is prepotent for.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If I was aiming specifically at National Hunt/Steeplechasing with a thought to having the horse sell into Eventing, hunting/show hunter, point to point, showjumping if it failed on the racecourse I think I'd be tempted to use Robin Des Champs. He's proven himself over hurdles and so has the attitude to do the job that hopefully passes on to his offspring - plus he's a good looking horse. 
Robin Des Champs | Rathbarry Stud


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I like him. He is quite straight through the hock.. but he has a nice roomy hock. Clearly he knows how to fold in front to get over a fence! Nice and scopey.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

oh yeah - Robin is a great sire - probably the best to get a scopey chaser, and they really stay sound and get a good trip.

but he's not aging well ... his ferility is gone way down, and with a good class mare with a foal at her side it's not ideal to leave her at the stud to be cross-covered / risk missing a year.

If he was in full health then it would be a simple question - same with Presenting that I posted earlier. Both get fantastic progeny, especially over fences more than hurdles.


Here's another one, maybe you won't like him so much, he's very flat-bred but his shoulder is fantastic and his progeny are v v agile and quick with their feet. He also just sired the Cheltenham Gold Cup winner (blue-ribband for steeplechasers !) 

Oscar - Coolmore : Coolmore

Actually - you may notice how similar his head is to Milan's ... they are both Sadler's Wells ... Oscar on the dam side goes back to a full sister to Hidden Talent (Kentucky Oaks winner)


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I like him a lot - he's got some progeny doing well over fences which is a positive and has the looks and shape to produce stock (with the right mare) that could do something else if they didn't succeed in racing
Shame about the fertility issue with the other one - too big a risk if you don't want to end up losing a year or the extra costs of the stud farm
My late uncle is one of the resident ghosts at Cheltenham racecourse - I was born almost literally just up the road from it!!!


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Sorry, I think maybe I am missing a picture? Your mare is the third horse you pictured in your second to last post right? And the other two horses are the two high price and high quality stallions you were talking about? I can't figure out how everyone is judging the made based on that picture unless I am missing one. From that one all I can see is that she has good bone, a high wither, sharpish shoudler, and a serious broodmare belly. The angle is wrong for many kind of critique.


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## Maple (Jan 10, 2012)

Ltg - I was going to suggest Oscar when I saw this thread earlier today. Every Oscar I've dealt with has gone on to win multiple races both over hurdles and fences. They've all had a brilliant temperament, are sensible and give 110%. Very much a respected and in form sire in the Irish market.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Endiku said:


> Sorry, I think maybe I am missing a picture? Your mare is the third horse you pictured in your second to last post right? And the other two horses are the two high price and high quality stallions you were talking about? I can't figure out how everyone is judging the made based on that picture unless I am missing one. From that one all I can see is that she has good bone, a high wither, sharpish shoudler, and a serious broodmare belly. The angle is wrong for many kind of critique.


Lol, there are quite a few photos now alright. 

The first, the grey, is the expensive stallion.

Then the next two are good / solid stallions,

Then there are two older, less fertile but brilliant sires (why I'm looking for another option - specifically the original, the grey Dalakhani).

Then the mare is photoed with a foal alongside, like you said, the third of three together.

Then there's Oscar, as Maple says





Maple said:


> They've all had a brilliant temperament, are sensible and give 110%. Very much a respected and in form sire in the Irish market.



This is it - they don't always look fantastic, but they have great mentalities and will-to-win. 

Oscars just make great racehorses. Unfortunately, they don't sell brilliantly, as in a sale with Robins and Presentings they look quite light and sometimes a bit short / small.

Shirocco and Milan tend to get bigger ones also.

Imo Oscar is under-rated, but breeding to sell you have to go with what the market wants, and that's big, scopey substantial horses.


If it was to breed a racehorse for myself I'd have no problem going to Oscar.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I like him a lot - he's got some progeny doing well over fences which is a positive and has the looks and shape to produce stock (with the right mare) that could do something else if they didn't succeed in racing
> Shame about the fertility issue with the other one - too big a risk if you don't want to end up losing a year or the extra costs of the stud farm
> My late uncle is one of the resident ghosts at Cheltenham racecourse - I was born almost literally just up the road from it!!!



That's a really interesting story ! ... I wonder did you see the Lord Windermere (by Oscar) win the Gold Cup last year ? or do you keep in touch with racing from GB+I ?

I have used Oscar before and the great thing is that he's very, very fertile. Never had any problem and walk-in covers are so easy.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Elana said:


> Your mare is really lovely. A bit straight through the hocks but nice bone and nicely put together.


Thanks Elana, she is good, substantial type, a real old-fashioned stamp of a mare who has a bit of class also. She tends to straighten out her stallions, and her stock are usually very correct. 

That said, I've had best success with her using a similar type of sire and got some really excellent types - strong, chasing, staying. The one time I tried a faster, sharper horse to breed something with more speed I got something that looked unbalanced and sold well but didn't go great.


As Reliable Man (Reliable Man Gr.1 win big boost for Dalghar) shows, Dalakhani does also leave that mark on his progeny, but I think my mare would fix up his neck and his chest some amount.

Just the question is, how much of a fault is it that he has ? Especially for breeding a 'chaser. I tend to think it's probably quite important for balance and extending up over a fence, to push out with the neck and have good control.

Dalakhani has other atttributes that are great - he's tall, they like a drop of rain, good stamina and progress with age, all important for a 'chaser.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

My immediate thought is:
LOOK AT THE TURNOUT IF YOU ARE *SELLING YOUR HORSE!!!*
Immaculate grooming and good weight will turn more heads than a good build.
I'm not fond of any of them. I'm almost thinking of stopping at the TB broodmare farm 10 minutes from my house and take some pictures. Some of their mares are exquisite, particularly a lovely dapple grey.


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## CrossCountry (May 18, 2013)

Endiku said:


> Sorry, I think maybe I am missing a picture? Your mare is the third horse you pictured in your second to last post right? And the other two horses are the two high price and high quality stallions you were talking about? I can't figure out how everyone is judging the made based on that picture unless I am missing one. From that one all I can see is that she has good bone, a high wither, sharpish shoudler, and a serious broodmare belly. The angle is wrong for many kind of critique.


I'm with you on this.. I feel like I'm missing a picture too.


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

CrossCountry said:


> I'm with you on this.. I feel like I'm missing a picture too.



Well, the point of the thread was to ask opinions on the Grey, the first horse anyway - so hopefully you can see him - Dalakhani.

He has a lot of good qualities, but I don't like the way his neck seems to tie in low, and runs in to his chest,

Is that a problem ? or is it more cosmetic ? ... especially for jumping.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Yes I still keep up with UK jump racing - a UK friend/ ex-neighbor breeds on a small scale for that market too and I have to watch Cheltenham via Youtube
Lord Windermere - well he certainly came from nowhere to win last year!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l13B9_O5_jQ
Re. Dhalakhani - I don't think the neck's going to go against him for what you want out of him especially if your mare can compensate
Lets face it - if the Aga Khan wasn't put off him he can't be too bad!!!


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Am I right in thinking though that the neck is really crucial for jumping ?

Firstly, for balance, and secondly to extend for extra propulsion when a horse approaches a jump a little off stride ? (either too far back, or gets in too close - in the first case to make it over, in the second to make the angle workable).

That's kinda what I'm thinking all along, as it 'Chasers I'm looking to breed.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I can't say that he'd be my first choice of the stallions you've considered so far but I'm not sure his neck is extreme enough to hamper him - if its decider then take a look through his bloodlines and see how often it comes up. His sire Darshaan produced some winners over jumps and if you could get another Reliable Man you wouldn't complain!!!


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## LTG (Aug 24, 2013)

Lovely picture of a smashing horse there Jaydee 

Dalakhani does get fantastic horses, as indeed did Darshaan. And Darshaan bred incredibly well through his fillies, the hope is Dalakhani would do likewise.

A 'Reliable Man' .. that would be something !!

More realistic would be a dual-purpose horse, able to mix it between the flat and over hurdles / 'chasing in time ... that's a great kinda horse to have because you can, say, get a handicap mark over hurdles and then progress with a couple of flat races and go try win a valuable handicap hurdle !

Thanks for all your input everybody. 

Liam.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Let us know who you decide to use when you finally make up your mind
Good luck


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