# If you're gonna ride a young horse, then ride them.



## smrobs

I see it all the time, folks talking about "breaking" their youngster and saying with pride that "I've been on him 3 times and he rides like a dream. I get on and just kinda let him go where he wants and if he wants to stop, I let him. He hasn't tried to buck me off or anything." Doing this is what I call 'sneaking rides' on a young horse, where you get on and do everything you can so that they don't realize they have a rider. I just got finished with one mare and now have a gelding that had this done to them when they were young. When they are started like that, it takes time after you actually start directing them to make them realize that they need to go the way you want them to go, not the way that want to go. Plus, all of a sudden, all that leg and rein pressure and they don't get their own way, it is much more likely to turn into a huge wreck. Horses that never offered to buck with 20 snuck rides will suddenly turn into a rodeo bronc when you actually ask them to do something. It is so much easier to dictate everything from day 1. Even on that first ride, they need to go the speed you want them to go and in the direction that you want them to go. It is up to you, as a trainer, to decide what they are ready for. If they aren't ready to trot circles, then fine, let them walk around but they need to go and stop when you tell them to and turn in the direction that you want to go. If you do this, you will get them broke so much quicker and they will generally be more willing to do exactly what you tell them to do instead of having their own ideas.

Edited to add: No young horse likes the bit the first few times. Just because you put a youngster in a snaffle and they act upset, don't just throw it into the "can't use that" pile. Work them through it. Get their attention back on you, give their mind something to think about other than that thing in their mouth and soon, you will find you have a horse that is quiet on the bit and doesn't mind being bridled simply because they know it is inevitible.


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## mbender

:clap:


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## MacabreMikolaj

HURRAY! I love you girl, your posts are the best.

I agree - almost every youngster is going to go through a "not liking the bit" phase. What would you do if someone strapped something in your mouth? I have only once in my life now seen a horse that would not accept the bit period - you can ride her in one, but she WILL get her tongue over it and stick it out the side and fuss the whole time.

I will not be "cautious" around my horses. After they learn what a saddle is, I will heave it up into the air and into their backs like a 20 year old dead broke horse. Yeah they may flinch a bit, but they learn fast I'll never let it slam on their backs and get over it quickly. The bigger and more delibrate your movements are, the more you "desensitize" them. It makes me laugh how people are on this huge desensitization kick and yet the BEST desensitization is simply treating them like you would your broke horse - instill that confidence that you expect of them instead of EXPECTING them to blow!

I got my one and only miniature fit from Jynx our second ride when she was still refusing to move forward - got my reins across her *** and she bolted with a half crowhop and almost skidded into the fence. Presto - stuck was unstuck and progress was made! I haven't had a single problem since with her offering to buck or blow - a few spooks, a couple miniature bolts, but all normal youngster shenanigins! 

The sooner you lay that foundation, the sooner you can get down to real work, real trust and real respect.


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## wild_spot

Amen, especially on the bit part!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyBoyPuck

Good post. I do cringe when I read an opening line that says something like "I'm training my first horse and it's a 2 year old". These are horses, not puppies. If you don't know what you're doing, you could get reaaaallly hurt.


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## Plains Drifter

Way to go Smrobs!!!  <cheer>


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## reining girl




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## Amir

AWESOME post Smrobs 

And MacabreMikolaj, "It makes me laugh how people are on this huge desensitization kick and yet the BEST desensitization is simply treating them like you would your broke horse - instill that confidence that you expect of them instead of EXPECTING them to blow!"

I couldn't agree more with that statement!
Since I got my boy at 2 years 10 months as a green broke horse (literally just came back from being broken 2 weeks before I looked at him) I've treated him like any other broke horse. People thought I was nuts doing that, but he's never done anything bad enough to throw me off or hurt me badly.
Don't pussyfoot around, just do what you want to do and they'll get over it!


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## maura

Awesome post! 

And, piggybacking on MM, "densensitizing" used to be a perfectly useful term, meaning exposing a young horse to a lot of different stimuli in a controlled setting, or, _lots of wet saddle pads. _Now it has taken on a new, different Natural Horsemanship meaning have something to do with plastic bags.


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## sarahver

Loved this. My other favourite thing people say: "Oh yeah I broke him myself he is such a good horse to ride, now I just need you to teach him how to trot and canter under saddle."

Ummm, do people realize that walking a horse in a round pen with a saddle on does NOT equal broke to ride?


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## smrobs

LOL. Yep, one of the very first things my Dad told me when I started riding colts as a teenager was "Let them know you're back there and you're piloting this jet. That way, we can go ahead and get the freak out moment out of the way." That is often what gets people in trouble is that they sneak 3 weeks worth of rides on a horse and get complacent because they think 'Well, we've made it this far, he's not gonna do anything.' That's when you get hurt the worst is when you have head up anus :lol:.


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## Amir

smrobs said:


> That's when you get hurt the worst is when you have head up anus :lol:.


:clap::rofl:

It's funny, coz it's true.
I was watching a friend jumping at states last year and she knows the horse she was riding was prone to randomly stopping or spooking at a jump for no reason. As soon as she let her guard down, *BAM*, big nasty stop and she goes right into the jump.
Not really related to young horses, but still, goes to show you can't go round with your head up your but on any horse.


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## mom2pride

Smrobs, you are one amazing young woman...and you are right on. 

I am one all for desenstizing to anything and everything I can, but when it comes down to it, when it comes to getting a horse used to 'stuff' in general, you just have to get on and ride, because doing desensitization from the ground is entirely different than being in the saddle; yes, getting them used to stuff like scarey bags CAN help alot, but it's riding that makes the horse 'broke', trained, what ever you want to call it! 

I never 'introduced' my mare to town riding, really, other than just working her in the safety of the 'arena' at the barn, and then going out into the streets when she was relaxed and somewhat 'tired'. And guess what? She has taken to it like she's done it her entire life; you can't get scarier than busy underpasses...both above and below, and she's never flinched. A confident rider, regardless of how green the horse is, is what gets a horse well broke...and of course all those wet saddle blankets!


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## Heartland

MacabreMikolaj said:


> HURRAY! I love you girl, your posts are the best.
> 
> The sooner you lay that foundation, the sooner you can get down to real work, real trust and real respect.


I agree!!! I swear you have the best posts Smrobs. 

The only way they get broke is with riding time. I don't just do arena work either. I think the best way to get a good quiet horse is to haul them. I started my mare and before she'd even had a full 30 days on her, I hauled her to her first show and competed in the snaffle bit class. I also hauled her to 8 different outdoor arenas, 4 indoor arenas (not including shows, that was just for daily work), had taken her on 2 club trail rides and done road riding and trail riding at a lake with a friend. I even dumped the saddle and rode her bareback in the water at the lake! She's now super quiet and docile and I get soooo many compliments on her. She'll go anywhere and do anything. The only way to get them that way is to put the time into them. Expose them to _everything_.


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## smrobs

Aw, ya'll make my horns feel all warm and fuzzy :wink:.


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## corinowalk

smrobs...great post as always girl. I've been thinking this a lot lately and am glad you opened this up for convo. 

I have found myself recently over thinking riding. When I was younger, you know, when I used to bounce instead of break, I just got on and WENT. You say that horse wont go out by himself? Wanna bet? Oh he bucks at the canter, eh? We will just have to see. My confidence has always been the strongest point of my riding. It certainly never was my position! I took a crap-tastic fall a few months back...one of those 'oops...should have been paying attention' falls..no ones fault really...but ever since then, I've been a bit gunshy. I broke myself out just yesterday. I have been wanting to go on a trail by my lonesome forever. I always have to wait until there is a group of us. Barn rules mostly dictated by a bunch of herdbound horses. I walked in that barn like I owned the place, snatched up Scooter, the spookiest of the bunch, tossed tack on him and ran his fat hiney up and over the hill. Had one of the best rides of my life. And amazingly...so did he. While my confidence was just recovering...his doubled. He thinks he is a trail MASTER now. 

Sorry to turn that into a novel. I just had to share with the group. I should have said this before. 

Hi. My name is Cori. I Ride.


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## mom2pride

Hey those horns need nourishment too :twisted: I know...I have my own set...they hold my tarnished halo up...:wink::lol:


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## smrobs

Wonderful story Cori. Glad to hear your getting your confidence back though I can understand the gunshy thing after taking a fall. I still feel that way every time I take a fall.

Mom2, my halo went far past tarnished years ago. It is now fully corroded LOL.


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## corinowalk

To your post though...I got a little off track...

I never really did understand those who ground work a horse for months on end, thinking its going to make this huge difference when you are in the saddle. I guess I have just never seen that one play out well. I work on the basics on the ground...but if the horse is of age to be ridden, they may get 2 weeks out of me before its TIME. I just never was any good at ground work. I can't fix any problem you would have under saddle on the ground. I just don't understand how that translates.


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## riccil0ve

I heart you, smrobs. =]

I haven't started riding my little one yet, but her first experience ever with a blanket was when I just walked up and threw it on her. She learned very quickly that it didn't bite, and I didn't give her a chance to even think that it might. The trick, at least with Gracie, is skipping the "Ohmigod, what is THAT?!?" moment and getting to the, "Oh, okay," moment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs

That's kinda the same way I look at it. I have done more with this little sorrel mare than I ever have with any horse simply because she is so mortified of everything but doing it for months and months? Nuh-uh, thank you very much. I have been around too dang many horses that were little angels on the lunge line, had perfect ground manners, even with the saddle on, they acted like an old broke kid-horse. Then the second you get into the saddle, they turn into a vicious killing monster. I don't know, I'm sure people would say I expect too much from my horses too soon, but if nothing else, I want to be able to get their head to the side and get a 2 reined stop out of them before I get off on that first ride. Even if my horses won't do anything else, they will **** sure plant their *** when I pick up on the reins. That has saved my bacon more times than I can count so if you can't do anything else, having a stop is paramount.


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## MacabreMikolaj

I think groundwork is good for NEW people. It's good for all people, but to spend months on those things are good if you haven't ever ridden the snort out of a bronc - getting dumped repeatedly isn't going to teach the horse anything good either.

I did so much with Zierra before I could ever ride her, it's like she was born broke - the day I got on was the day I simply started riding a beautifully responsive and well trained animal. This was because I owned her since she was born though - 4 years is a looooong time to invent things to do with a horse! 

Jynx I got on as soon as I bought her only to discover she knew absolutely nothing. I spent about six months on groundwork with her before riding her - mostly because I had to undo so much damage that had already been done in making her a spoiled brat. She was also a little young for me to want to ride at freshly 2.

I wouldn't spend much groundwork at all if I was handed a 3 year old to train from the ground up - get the basics, and on we get! I just always end up doing tons of groundwork because I have the darn things since birth! :lol:


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## smrobs

That I understand. Rafe has had more groundwork done with him in his short life than I have done over all my other horses added together. I finally had to just stop because he was bored and so was I. Now I just go to the pasture and give him a scratch a few times a day :lol::roll:.


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## corinowalk

LOL thats different MM. I know a few people who have had their horses from weanlings and have had very little trouble and resistance in training them. Mostly because as a yearling they were wearing a saddle, they knew weight on their backs as a 2 year old, they ground drove as 3 year olds and they were started officially at 4. When we get a new rescue in at the barn...I am always the first to say 'when can we ride him!" not because I am an impatient 14 year old...but because the faster they get under saddle, the faster they find a new home. No one wants an untrained, unrideable horse. My dear friends at the barn are the ground work gurus. I would rather ride. LOL


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## mom2pride

I tend to use ground work as a 'mental check' before I get on my horses...even older ones can have days where they just don't want to pay attention, but a little bit of "well fine, you don't want to pay attention, then we'll work harder and longer" wakes 'em up pretty quick. I think properly done ground work has it's place, even with well trained horses, and it's certainly not something I let slide, because what happens if the horse get's injured, or sick and your "stuck" with only ground work until the horse is well enough to ride? 

However, that said, I don't spend "hours" on end, doing ground work, either...quick reminders of proper lunging, round penning, etc, are all that's needed to keep the horse fresh in it, unless there is a spot that get mucky, then you work through it, and move on. I probably spend about 5-10 minutes out of 3-4 hours doing ground work with my mare now...before it was more, simply because she needed it more. 

When I am working with a young horse who is untrained, I make sure he knows how to move on a lunge line, and round pen, make sure he can bend each way, can yield his hip and shoulders, and then once he is desensitized to the saddle, I get up and we start working undersaddle. 

It can be different with horses like my current mare, who have a less than desireable history, but even with her, I taught her the above mentioned 'basics' and was on her in less than two weeks after I got her. From there we've gotten plenty of wet blankets, and she has settled down ALOT from her first few rides, although she never bucked, or otherwise went bronc on me, either. Sometimes undoing damage done by bad training, is sooooo much harder than working with a colt who's had NO training at all.


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## Alwaysbehind

Great original post smrobs! Love this thread.


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## kitten_Val

mom2pride said:


> I tend to use ground work as a 'mental check' before I get on my horses..


I do it too if something feels off (too nervous or in a VERY hyper mood (I bet that's when in heat) or can't tell if there is a slight lameness or not, just move funny). 

Actually I also start with 3 - 5 days groundwork when I start them over after 3-4 months off work in winter. But overall I prefer to ride.


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## mbender

Sarahvr, love your post! :rofl:


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## mbender

smrobs said:


> Aw, ya'll make my horns feel all warm and fuzzy :wink:.


I like it when someone has the bal!$ to say something. I am too afraid I may get into trouble on here but I know that if you arent being rude to someone I think you are ok. The thing that "trainers" need to know is, your always going to learn something new each time you train and just because you think you "know" your horse and it is the kindest, gentlest, non aggressive animal you've worked with, doesnt mean it cant and wont do something to surprise you. I hate it when someone gets on here and posts a thread asking for help and no matter what anyone tells them they think they know better and get upset at our advice.


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## sarahver

I wish there was some way you could broadcast this thread to all the owners of young horses out there. 

I just had a call last night from some lovely people who own a young Anglo Arab that I finished over summer. This was one of the horses that was so called 'broken' but after talking to the owners, she hadn't gone past a walk in the round pen. 

In one month I had her up to w/t/c in the arena, basic patterns like figure of eights, serpentines, 20m circles etc and I also took her out on the trails three times for a few hours each time, w/t/c again. What I would call 'green broke'. The only thing she ever does is have a little wriggle when you ask for the first canter, nothing dramatic and she is very easy to push through it.

Well of course I am not riding her now that I am in college as I don't have time but I was very direct with her owners and told them that she needed constant, regular work to keep her going in the right direction. Well the call last night was because apparently she 'bucked' (very doubtful, probably just crowhopped once or twice) and they were quite shocked.

Here's the kicker - she is kept in a stall, fed grain twice a day and hasn't been ridden in THREE WEEKS!!! What the hell do you expect??? You know what young horses need? MILEAGE!!!

So I am off to ride her on Saturday.....


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## MN Tigerstripes

Great post Smrobs. 

I generally prefer to ride mine too. The main exception is in the very early spring when everythings a slick, wet, nasty, dangerous mess and the horses are insanely hyper and extremely barn sour. We do a little work on the ground to remind them that they need to pay attention to me, not the wind. We do about 3-5 days worth before I start riding mainly because my area is like greased asphalt in the spring and I have no wish to get landed on.


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## herdbound

Excellent post. I actually enjoy the diversity amongst training methods. I am more interested in the results, than the method people use to get them. Everyone does have their own style of doing things and I think that is ok. I am not a big fan of putting time limits on things, I just want to see someone making forward motion. Horse A will not always respond like Horse B. Ground work is an excellent opportunity to observe your pupil, to gauge it's willingness to submit, it's aptitude for learning. It is a chance to get to know the particular "quirks" of a horse. You then use that information to proceed, but I agree being on the back is a whole new world than being on the ground. It should be a process which is always making forward progress. Just like when we were in school, we had different teachers, we remember the kind ones and we will never forget the strict ones, but each one moved us forward year after year. My BIGGEST pet peeve is placing that "30 days" limit on green breaking horses. I hate that terminology. HATE IT. It is more about the results, I don't really care how you do it, just do it right. Produce a good solid horse with no holes.


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## sarahver

^^Agreed on the '30 days' thing and excellent post. I just wanted to clarify I only stopped riding the Anglo Arab in my previous post after a month as I went back to college and the owners were aware of my time constraints!!


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## herdbound

oh hun I wasn't talking about you...I just get sick of picking up the paper and seeing all these horses advertised as having "30 days of training" like 30 days is some magical time frame. It depends on what happened in those 30 days. Just a little vent about it.


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## sarahver

herdbound said:


> oh hun I wasn't talking about you...I just get sick of picking up the paper and seeing all these horses advertised as having "30 days of training" like 30 days is some magical time frame. It depends on what happened in those 30 days. Just a little vent about it.


OK, I just didn't want to be lumped into the 'typical trainer' basket!  I completely agree with you by the way.


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## HorsePoor_n_BigSky

Great post! A lot of very true information.

I have a 3 year old that is green. Mind you she was started a year ago. I have a lot of saddle time on her though. She is good minded but of course has the typical youngster mind. She will try to root out at times and you have to check her back into place. Although with her it hasn't been the typical lets just work on walk, trot, canter. I want to be able to flex her head, move her shoulders/hips, counter leg yield, etc. She does both arena work and trails. Mind you I'm not pushing her over the limits. I want her attention and body before I push her into another direction. Her right lead can be a bear to get. It's amazing how fast she'll catch it once reminded how to do it and stops resisting. 

There are too many people that "start" youngsters that shouldn't be doing so. As you stated they have limited rides that are just happy wanderers..(is that a word? lol) Too many green on green incidents. 

I agree with others, I've noticed you have a lot of good/informal posts.


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## DieselPony

I'm one of those people that got a lot of flack for taking to much time on ground work on a 4 year old that was ridden the "30 days" the summer before. 
Why? She had all winter off, was in a new place and I saw other horses this "trainer" had and there was no way in hell I was getting on her and assuming she was a good horse. But, as most people at that barn were the kind that if the horse was having problems, one up it physically. I had so many shanked bits and hard, hard crops given to me to try and told to buy spurs when I started riding her because he hauled her around by the mouth so much that she was really good at grabbing the bit and spinning. So I started in a eggbutt copper snaffle and took my dear sweet time. This impossible to turn and stop horse now can be ridden in a halter. Without the help of anyone's equipment to help her turn.

I also want to add, if you're going to ride a young horse, don't be to old to get bucked off. If you're in your late 50s and want to ride a 2 year old, don't blame the world and bash someone and their horse if your horse gets spooked and you get bucked off.


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## countmystrides

people you've described in this post.. make me really dread getting into the sport. especially in hunters. i've been in it for years and i can NOT tell you how many of them cut corners. They're legs suck, so they stick em to the saddle. They're horses don't get down on the bit, so they force them down with draw reins and martingales. They're too fast and strong, so they throw them into jumpers. FRUSTRATES THE HECK OUT OF ME. do you not know how to train a horse? Probably should go back to lessons and learn the basics.


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## Cowgirl140ty

On the whole thirty day thing... it really depends with me. Say the horse was broke out already to all the basics... and a trainer took the horse for "30 days" to train in a specific area/discipline is one thing. But "30 days" of breaking/teaching the horse the ropes is another.

Just a month ago, this lady tells me shes buying a horse with 60 days. She w/t/c/whoa, but she still green at the canter. So she wants me to take her for 30 days, to basically just ride and finish out the basics. 
The first day I go to saddle, the horse acts like it has never seen a saddle. So I did lunger her with a saddle just to see what she was gonna do... she did great. So I got on. The horse had absolutley NO CUES whats so ever. Didnt stop, was dead sided, wouldnt bend, give to the bit or anything. So I called the woman.. and she asked me to call the trainer she bought her from... this part gets me... the trainer said.. and I quote... "Oh, well I only had 60 days on her so I just got on her and went. Didnt teach her any cues. Work with her for 2 weeks, you'll see a different horse."
Well... obviously... if im working her everyday for 2 weeks, im gonna see a different horse. But its people like that, that frustrate me. How can you claim your this great trainer, and ride a horse for 60 days without teaching it the basics. But when the horse left my house after 30 days she truly would w/t/c/whoa. Everything was leg/body cues, never had to get in her mouth. She was even doing slow spins.
Sorry for the novel.


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## DieselPony

countmystrides said:


> do you not know how to train a horse? Probably should go back to lessons and learn the basics.


Sadly, one of the ladies who gave me Tom Thumb bit after watching me ride saying it'll help my horse with her bad turns (I was working on yielding on and off the wall when she was watching), she is now giving riding lessons and trying to advertise as a trainer. I later found out that she doesn't even know what a leg yield is.


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## mls

sarahver said:


> I just had a call last night from some lovely people who own a young Anglo Arab that I *finished* over summer.
> 
> Well the call last night was because apparently she 'bucked' (very doubtful, probably just crowhopped once or twice) and they were quite shocked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to guess if you used the term finished with these folks - then yes - they would be shocked when she bucked.
Click to expand...


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## sarahver

mls said:


> sarahver said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just had a call last night from some lovely people who own a young Anglo Arab that I *finished* over summer.
> 
> Well the call last night was because apparently she 'bucked' (very doubtful, probably just crowhopped once or twice) and they were quite shocked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am going to guess if you used the term finished with these folks - then yes - they would be shocked when she bucked.
> 
> 
> 
> Mmmm, OK, poor choice of words. No horse is ever finished after all hey?
> And no, that is not how I described it to the owners, I told them what I had her doing when I went back to college and explained what she needed to continue doing in order to progress further with her training under saddle.
> 
> Edit: 1.) I highly doubt the horse really bucked - people are very quick to use the word buck when in actual fact very few horses REALLY buck, usually they crowhop, pigroot etc. 2.) Many 'fully trained' horses will misbehave when they are kept in a stall and fed grain with the exclusion of being worked.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## herdbound

The truth about the whole 30/60 day thing is that the horse stays with them for 30 or 60 days but doesn't get worked but an hour or two a day if you are lucky. Sometimes a lot of the days are spent milling around the trainers paddock...I just don't like the terminology it leaves a lot of room for error.

On a horse that is "finished" that throws a buck. Horses are not robots, there are no guarantees that if you put in X amount of work you will get X results every single time. Maybe the saddle pad had a bur on it...maybe the cinch was pinching...maybe a bee stung the horse...Horse trainers are not the end all. Horses spend a lifetime learning, and just because that's the way it works, they do things that are off center at times...most of the time bad stuff happens because of human error...but sometimes it just happens. Trainers are people and they do make mistakes, but they can't control horses that have been returned home, they must hope they laid a good foundation and the horses new rider knows how to develop that foundation...but just like everything in life sh*t sometimes happens. I really don't know why trainers are put up on these pedestals like they are God's or something. They aren't. Just like there are no perfect horses - there are no perfect trainers. The most dangerous horse in my opinion is the one that is so good you forget that in an instant it can turn ugly.


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## MacabreMikolaj

^

This. The biggest name Grand Prix horses in the world still buck. I think it says a lot about the person who owns the horse if they actually believe that "finished" means "I am 110% safe and I will never misbehave for the rest of my life."


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## smrobs

LOL, my brothers horse, Snuffy, that is now 11? years old will still crow hop every time Brother rides him into that first lope of the day. If you get him on a cow before that, hold on cause he'll crow hop the entire time he's cutting the cow. It's not that he's untrained, he is actually one of the most trained/broke horses you could ever meet, it's just one of those little personality quirks that he has. His momma was a Mr. San Peppy mare and it didn't matter how hard you rode her or how you rode her, she would occasionally just twist off and go to crow hopping. She continued to do that up into her 20's until she was retired from riding. What is completely ironic is that my 11 year old niece can ride him at whatever speed she wants to and he never even considers acting up. Maybe he's just waiting until she's older :lol:.


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## Alwaysbehind

I do not disagree with the point that finished does not mean dead to the world to a horse person with horse experience.

But I think the point MLS is making is that these people are beginner types and if you use the world 'finished' to them they are going to think it means the horse is....well...finished.... which means they can ride it.


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## mls

herdbound said:


> On a horse that is "finished" that throws a buck. Horses are not robots, there are no guarantees that if you put in X amount of work you will get X results every single time. Maybe the saddle pad had a bur on it...maybe the cinch was pinching...maybe a bee stung the horse...Horse trainers are not the end all. Horses spend a lifetime learning, and just because that's the way it works, they do things that are off center at times...most of the time bad stuff happens because of human error...but sometimes it just happens. Trainers are people and they do make mistakes, but they can't control horses that have been returned home, they must hope they laid a good foundation and the horses new rider knows how to develop that foundation...but just like everything in life sh*t sometimes happens. I really don't know why trainers are put up on these pedestals like they are God's or something. They aren't. Just like there are no perfect horses - there are no perfect trainers. The most dangerous horse in my opinion is the one that is so good you forget that in an instant it can turn ugly.


I pointed out what was said in order to be P O L I T E. Green/newbie horse people take a 'trainer' at their word. I merely suggested that if the poster told this green folks the horse was finished - they would indeed be shocked that the horse bucked.


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## mls

Alwaysbehind said:


> I do not disagree with the point that finished does not mean dead to the world to a horse person with horse experience.
> 
> But I think the point MLS is making is that these people are beginner types and if you use the world 'finished' to them they are going to think it means the horse is....well...finished.... which means they can ride it.


 
Thank you! 

IMHO - you cannot 'finish' a living, breathing, independent thinking creature. I also do not feel you can be an expert on such a creature. Sure, you can understand a lot of the nuances. But unless life is exactly the same day after day, all you can hope is that you land right side up.


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## mom2pride

MacabreMikolaj said:


> ^
> 
> This. The biggest name Grand Prix horses in the world still buck. I think it says a lot about the person who owns the horse if they actually believe that "finished" means "I am 110% safe and I will never misbehave for the rest of my life."


However, the way these horses handle on the ground tells me that there are some serious holes lacking in their training. Just because he's winning, doesn't mean his training is by any means complete, imo. I have handled varying breeds of show stock, and some are marvelous from the ground up, and others have NO manners what-so-ever on the ground, and you have to do everything "just right" or the horse won't respond from the saddle either. 

I really think there is a big difference in what a person calls finished, now a days...and the way I see it, is a horse is finished when you can ride him out, in any situation, and he will respond the same as he would in any controlled environment; ie...he is a "useable" horse, not just one that looks and acts pretty in the showpen. Does that mean he's dead to the world? No. But he's also not a complete idiot all the time, either...


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## herdbound

My earlier post was not directed at anyone mls...it was a generalization. Being around a multitude of horse people with different levels of experience, I witness this almost "cultic" following of some of them. It's like angels in heaven sing a little choir ensemble when their name is mentioned. To have a good horse you have a simple recipe...take one good horse (they are not all equal imho) add in one good trainer and mix well...then place a seasoned rider on it's back for a good bit of time who can ride out the bucks, the temper tantrums, and the resistance until more often than not the horse acts like it has some sense...then carefully place that horse with a rider who can handle having that particular horse. There are so many mix-matched mates in the horse world...so many...people just don't get it. You wouldn't buy your son a ferrari the first day he got his license and say...have at it. He needs something safe, dependable and a little forgiving. I understand there are newbies who need terms they can understand...finished sounds well like something is completed...ready to go...I think this is where honesty and good communication skills are required of the trainer.


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## sarahver

sarahver said:


> I wish there was some way you could broadcast this thread to all the owners of young horses out there.
> 
> I just had a call last night from some lovely people who own a young Anglo Arab that I finished over summer. This was one of the horses that was so called 'broken' but after talking to the owners, she hadn't gone past a walk in the round pen.
> 
> In one month I had her up to w/t/c in the arena, basic patterns like figure of eights, serpentines, 20m circles etc and I also took her out on the trails three times for a few hours each time, w/t/c again. *What I would call 'green broke'*. The only thing she ever does is have a little wriggle when you ask for the first canter, nothing dramatic and she is very easy to push through it.
> 
> Well of course I am not riding her now that I am in college as I don't have time *but I was very direct with her owners and told them that she needed constant, regular work to keep her going in the right direction.* Well the call last night was because apparently she 'bucked' (very doubtful, probably just crowhopped once or twice) and they were quite shocked.
> 
> Here's the kicker - *she is kept in a stall, fed grain twice a day and hasn't been ridden in THREE WEEKS!!! What the hell do you expect??? You know what young horses need? MILEAGE!!!*
> 
> So I am off to ride her on Saturday.....


I have already admitted that 'finished' is not a good word and wasn't the way I described the horse to its owners. 

I have highlighted a couple of things from my ORIGINAL post that I think some may not have seen the first time around.


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## Just Ruthiey

Yes! I know have posted a few where I was worried about Pepper but I soon got over that. 
I through the saddle up on her like it was nothing, she has gotten so much better. She takes the bit like its nothing, never really fought me. 
Now... I haven't honestly ridden her yet but its a process! I have clambered up on her back. Khanner went after her so I wasn't on long but I am still proud of her standing still so I could jump off. 

I now have three or four horses that are HUGE, like monster drafty huge that have been ridden around like that, I have no idea how I am supposed to help this family but these horses need manners.


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## Eliz

I REFUSE to sneak around any horse... they get over it quickly that way.


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## equiniphile

YES! Thank you! The closest I get to "sneaking" is sitting on my 23-yr old while he grazes and letting him graze and walk around as he wishes.


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## kiwigirl

sarahver said:


> I have already admitted that 'finished' is not a good word and wasn't the way I described the horse to its owners.
> 
> I have highlighted a couple of things from my ORIGINAL post that I think some may not have seen the first time around.


It's all right sarahver, I hear you!

Phoenny had been under saddle for 6 weeks when I took her on a local horse trek with 70 odd other horse and riders. I had no idea how she was going to react to so many strange horses in one place but honestly, how else do you find out? Lets face it you could ride a horse on it's own for a year and still have no realistic picture of how it is going to react in a group of that size.

There is one thing that I always quietly laugh about on this forum and that is the threads by people wanting to know how to train your horse to be a good trail horse. Well shoot... get it out of the arena and get on the trail. Sometime the answer really is that simple. How do I make a good riding horse? Well, you ride it.


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## Hunter65

This is a great thread! Maybe you guys can help me a bit. Hunter went to the trainer last March, I went there quite a bit and I rode him there a few times. The trainer is my farrier and friend and I have had her still come out and ride. My problem is I don't have the confidence I used to. I used to have no fear of any horse and get on and ride anything. Hunter has some attitude, he is 3, nips at me and hates to be groomed. He knows I am nervous. He bucked twice on me in the summer - first time he did that. Shocked me a bit. Then he bucked again 2 times in the arena and yes they were bucks. He is usually pretty good, he is a smart boy. We have been working on leg cues and he knows them quite well sidepasses etc. I almost traded him this week but I really don't want to give up on him. How do I get my confidence back. I keep saying ok I gotta just go do it but I can't seem to do it when I get there. I even took him to a fun games day for the exposure and it was stimulation overload - he was rearing and bucked in the arena. He is great on trailrides, has to be in the lead. I guess I am afraid of being bucked off and I hate it. I have only been afraid of one horse my entire life and I want my confidence back. BTW I am 45 and have been riding since I was a kid but had some time off in my late 20's and 30's. Sorry for the long story.


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## Fifty

Rick Gore?


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## CinderEve

Love this thread!! I'm going to bookmark it.


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## sarahver

kiwigirl said:


> It's all right sarahver, I hear you!


He he, glad someone did!


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## Mutt

Way to go on this post! It is oh so true!


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## Crickett

Lots of "good quality" ground word during the years leading up to the beginning of real training, can help carry over into saddle work, to make it easier. Like teaching a horse to move his body away from pressure, on those areas you will be applying your leg cues to. Ground driving, ponying, and desensitizing are all good things to do. However, you don't want to over do the desensitizing thing. Desensitizing in a round pen with bags, works in the round pen. It looks different out of that comfort zone, and your horse will react to it. Once you get the basics down pat, nothing works better than lots of wet saddle blankets. And by that I don't mean just lots of riding. I mean lots of riding, but continuing with training exercises while out on the trail. Exposure to things outside their comfort zone helps to make a good horse. 

When you send your horse out for 30, 60, or 90 days of training, with a good trainer, it never means you get back a bomb proof, dead broke horse. It usually means the horse has a good solid foundation started, and that you need to carry on perfecting it, when you get the horse home. It doesn't mean that when you get the horse home, that the horse gets put out to pasture for weeks or months, before you ride it again. You need to be on the same page as the trainer, which I hope means, the trainer gave you one on one instructions with the horse, before sending the horse home. If all you do is turn the horse out, and not ride it consistently, as you were shown, then you've wasted your time and money. Don't blame the trainer then if things don't go right, because you didn't put your time in.


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## smrobs

Hunter, your guy would likely benefit from a lot of really wet saddle pads. When you take him out on the trail, spend a lot of time at a long trot or a lope and also, a lot of loping circles in the arena or a flat area of land you have access to. When he starts to buck or otherwise act silly, the best thing I have found is to bring his head to one side and make him spin as fast as you can in a little bitty circle. Keep his head bent and keep him going until he is breathing hard and struggling to keep going. If you get dizzy before he has had enough (I often do), then switch sides and turn him the other way. Push him and push him and don't be afraid to bump him in the mouth if he starts laying on your hand. If you do that every single time he acts stupid, then he will start to figure out that being stupid = work and he won't want to do it anymore. This should also help to give you some confidence back because it will take much of the power away when he tries to buck and puts you back in control of his body instead of just being along for the ride.


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## smrobs

Fifty said:


> Rick Gore?


Um....huh? I'm not sure what you are asking.


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## Hunter65

smrobs said:


> Hunter, your guy would likely benefit from a lot of really wet saddle pads. When you take him out on the trail, spend a lot of time at a long trot or a lope and also, a lot of loping circles in the arena or a flat area of land you have access to. When he starts to buck or otherwise act silly, the best thing I have found is to bring his head to one side and make him spin as fast as you can in a little bitty circle. Keep his head bent and keep him going until he is breathing hard and struggling to keep going. If you get dizzy before he has had enough (I often do), then switch sides and turn him the other way. Push him and push him and don't be afraid to bump him in the mouth if he starts laying on your hand. If you do that every single time he acts stupid, then he will start to figure out that being stupid = work and he won't want to do it anymore. This should also help to give you some confidence back because it will take much of the power away when he tries to buck and puts you back in control of his body instead of just being along for the ride.


Thanks sm. At the moment I can really only use the arena, which both of us hate and since he just barely turned 3 I didn't want to push him too much (we aren't 100% sure of his exact age but my farrier thinks he is younger than what I was told). I think the last time he bucked in the arena was after we had slowed down from a canter. With my trainer we have been working a lot at the walk getting him more in tune with the leg commands. I am ok and less nervous on a trail ride than in the arena and after a lesson I have confidence and think ah next time I will come out and ride but then I get there and don't want to ride. I am hating this because I never used to have this fear and don't know how to get past it. When I first adopted Hunter he tried to charge me in the round pen and arena on a lunge line. That was when my confidence first went bye bye. I got some backbone back and got past that. Hmmm I sometimes wonder if he just doesn't like me, he hates when I groom him, nickers when I come up the alleyway in the barn but then pins his ears and tries to bite when I pet him. Sometimes I don't even want to go see him, but I don't want to get rid of him yet as we have invested a lot of time and money into him and I think he will be a great little pony eventually. Its not like I pussyfoot around him either, I am not one of those "Oh my cute little pony" feeding hand treats etc etc. Ahhh I don't know...


I will definately try the spin though


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## TheLastUnicorn

Honestly... good, solid groundwork at any stage of training will only better the performance undersaddle. 

For this reason the "greats" of dressage have always started their horses "in hand", for YEARS, before ever getting on their backs. Movements are trained in hand, the horse is taught self-carriage. It's important in developing a horse in a way that it will be performing high levels in their late years (note how many of the SRS Lippizanner stallions are in their 20's!!!).

Personally, I'd rather see someone take the time to develop their horse slowly, from the ground before getting on their back. Not only will they (the horse) be more confident, but they will have better balance, be better able to carry a rider and more mentally prepared for work. 

Now... after saying that, I don't mean "groundwork" like many NH people do it... nor how many other people take "short cuts"... I'm talking about working the horse, from the ground, in a manner which follows the training scale. I'm not talking about mere desensitization either... I'm not talking about doing boring "circles" on the longline, I'm talking about real work - proper work, to prepare the horse for more work, under the weight of a sometimes less than balanced rider. Working in the long lines, double longing, ground-driving. Working the horse Relaxation, Rhythm, Contact, Impulsion, Straightness, Collection. 

To me, it's not about "fearing" the buck, or misbehavior, it's about being able to physically prepare the horse for correct work. If I can have the horse built up, correctly, from the ground, there's a better chance that it will "naturally" continue that way under saddle, I will not have to "go back" and fine tune anything, everything will be moving forward (naturally, that's only provided I do my part properly... otherwise, like all riding and handling I'm only treading water)


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## MIEventer

Excellant post Unicorn! A+!


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## Piaffe

^^^^ agreed!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Hunter65 said:


> I am ok and less nervous on a trail ride than in the arena and after a lesson I have confidence and think ah next time I will come out and ride but then I get there and don't want to ride. I am hating this because I never used to have this fear and don't know how to get past it. When I first adopted Hunter he tried to charge me in the round pen and arena on a lunge line. That was when my confidence first went bye bye. I got some backbone back and got past that. Hmmm I sometimes wonder if he just doesn't like me, he hates when I groom him, nickers when I come up the alleyway in the barn but then pins his ears and tries to bite when I pet him. Sometimes I don't even want to go see him,


If I felt the way you do about this horse, he'd already be on a table in France. At 40 I decided to quit coming off the horse because the ground hurts too much. At 45 I decided that if I wasn't enjoying a horse and didn't look forward to riding, I'd sell the horse and get one more suited to me. At 53, after a devastating accident that almost cost me one of my feet, any horse I don't feel 100% comfortable with, is down the road. 

I just spent this whole spring and summer laid up from a crush injury and nearly lost my foot because of it. The horse who did it was not at fault and I'm not at all nervous around her. However, there are horses I'm not real sure of, and they are going back to training or down the road. I don't have the time nor do I have the inclination to spend another 7 months wondering if I'm going to wear a prosthesis. 

So my answer to regaining your self confidence is to sell this horse and buy one that is well trained and less reactive. It sounds like you want and need a calm, loving, wonderful horse who will be your friend and partner. Not a toddler who throws tantrums when he doesn't get his way. JMHO of course!


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## Hunter65

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> If I felt the way you do about this horse, he'd already be on a table in France. At 40 I decided to quit coming off the horse because the ground hurts too much. At 45 I decided that if I wasn't enjoying a horse and didn't look forward to riding, I'd sell the horse and get one more suited to me. At 53, after a devastating accident that almost cost me one of my feet, any horse I don't feel 100% comfortable with, is down the road.
> 
> I just spent this whole spring and summer laid up from a crush injury and nearly lost my foot because of it. The horse who did it was not at fault and I'm not at all nervous around her. However, there are horses I'm not real sure of, and they are going back to training or down the road. I don't have the time nor do I have the inclination to spend another 7 months wondering if I'm going to wear a prosthesis.
> 
> So my answer to regaining your self confidence is to sell this horse and buy one that is well trained and less reactive. It sounds like you want and need a calm, loving, wonderful horse who will be your friend and partner. *Not a toddler who throws tantrums when he doesn't get his way.* JMHO of course!



Thanks dreamcatcher. I am almost to that point and have been considering it. I guess I am having a hard time with it because I rescued him over a year ago and spent a lot of time and money on surgeries (he had a hernia) and training and I really believe he will be a good horse. My trainer thinks he is good and he is very smart just naughty. I know I really shouldn't be nervous of him for the most part he is good but your last line hit the nail on the head. ahhhhhh we are having a lesson this weekend, I will see how he goes.


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## TheLastUnicorn

Hunter65 said:


> Thanks dreamcatcher. I am almost to that point and have been considering it. I guess I am having a hard time with it because I rescued him over a year ago and spent a lot of time and money on surgeries (he had a hernia) and training and I really believe he will be a good horse. My trainer thinks he is good and he is very smart just naughty. I know I really shouldn't be nervous of him for the most part he is good but your last line hit the nail on the head. ahhhhhh we are having a lesson this weekend, I will see how he goes.


"Naughty" is how horses show us we're being weak leaders. 

A horse will only be well behaved if he feels he can trust his "leader" (whether it be horse or human)... otherwise his behavior will be geared towards taking over... and taking control. 

If your personality makes you a more timid person (or past experience has shown you to be more cautious with him) then you are allowing fear to take hold of you... that fear is picked up by your horse, and then it's amplified and expressed as "bad behavior". Either you need to adjust that about yourself, or get a less challenging horse.


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## Hunter65

TheLastUnicorn said:


> "Naughty" is how horses show us we're being weak leaders.
> 
> A horse will only be well behaved if he feels he can trust his "leader" (whether it be horse or human)... otherwise his behavior will be geared towards taking over... and taking control.
> 
> If your personality makes you a more timid person (or past experience has shown you to be more cautious with him) then you are allowing fear to take hold of you... that fear is picked up by your horse, and then it's amplified and expressed as "bad behavior". Either you need to adjust that about yourself, or get a less challenging horse.


I know that what I need to do, I am not sure how to adjust it about myself. It's not that I don't reprimand him etc and I don't pussy foot around him either. I know he picks up on my lost confidence, I am trying to get it back.


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## Fifty

smrobs said:


> Um....huh? I'm not sure what you are asking.


Lol. Do you watch him?


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## smrobs

I've heard the name but I don't recall having ever seen any of his stuff.


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## JoBlueQuarter

I looove your post, smrobs!


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## Foxhunter

When I first rode a youngster I ride it out on the roads and tracks, they have been long reined out and about and I have found that they are looking at where they are going rather than worried about a rider. 

I never sit quietly, I slap them on their necks, sides and quarters, I will flap my legs and move around, they know I am there that is for sure! 

I will also walk trot and canter them first ride. 

All to often people are so softly softly that if something untoward happens and the rider bounces in the saddle it scares the bejebers out of the horse and they react badly.

I learned this with one youngster when I was in my teens. She had been easy to ride and was going nicely. I was riding her in the field where there were other horses loose. I had halted alongside the hedge next to the road. She wasn't worried about anything I was stroking her neck, leaning forward when there was a car wreck the other side of the hedge slightly behind us. She jumped forward, I jerked in the saddle and grabbed at the reins, she took off giving a right royal rodeo display! I stayed on top but not really in control, she naturally made for the loose horses and stopped sharp when reaching them, as she did so she threw her head up knocking my hunting cap off which startled her again, one more bucking episode and she stopped! 

I know it was me bouncing in the saddle as she jumped that set her off and after that I was never 'nice' when I rode them first time!


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## Acadianartist

maura said:


> Awesome post!
> 
> And, piggybacking on MM, "densensitizing" used to be a perfectly useful term, meaning exposing a young horse to a lot of different stimuli in a controlled setting, or, _lots of wet saddle pads. _Now it has taken on a new, different Natural Horsemanship meaning have something to do with plastic bags.


I agree that ideally, you would desensitize every young horse as part of the training process, just by doing normal things around them. But there are instances when specific training is necessary to help get a horse/horse owner over problems.

I bought a mare that was supposed to be bombproof and beginner-safe last summer. She spooked at everything and promptly sent me flying off her twice within the first two weeks. I was in over my head. We brought in a trainer to deal with this problem. I would call this remedial work, because obviously, she should not have spooked (once it was at a jump standard, the other time, a flying plastic bag, so YES, we used plastic bags as part of her desensitization process, and now I can dump a plastic bag of bedding in her stall while she is in there, shake it to get all the bits out, and she doesn't care). 

I do treat her like any other horse and do not tiptoe around her. But I also think there were holes in her training, so the desensitization addressed a specific gap that was dangerous for an adult born-again rider like me.


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## WhattaTroublemaker

This is basically how I started trouble. I got him at nine months so I took him everywhere with me and expected him to be solid. By the time I put my first ride on him he WAS solid. I've only put about 30 rides on him in a year since he's still young, but I do something different every time I ride. Wether it be waving sticks all over the place, putting jackets on, hacking down trails or roads, or just plodding up and down hills in the pasture. #1 though, he does what *I* want. He's not allowed to just carry me around, he must work _with_ me. Even when I fell off when he was frisky and bucked, I took him home and made him trot around the yard until he was sweaty and didn't want to anymore, and then we did some more trotting and bending. I know a girl who "starts" colts by just sitting on them and letting them graze in the pasture. Her horses have a history of blowing up, presumably because when they're put into real work they think they're allowed to graze and wander where they want. No way to start a horse imo. But I do believe groundwork is the foundation to a good ride. If the horse trusts you as a leader before you get on his back he is going to go much better for you.


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## Foxhunter

I cannot ever remember a time when I have ever used a polythene bag to desensitise a horse. The only thing I have done is to tie a bucket either side of the saddle with some pebbles and cling film over the top so it rattles and bangs on the saddle. 

I have never had horses frightened by bags, let the blighters have a chance to get hold of them and they play silly beggars with them! Then you will see them look at a bag on the ground when you are leading them past so, they get corrected for that. 

I had a pile of feed sacks on the back of the ATV and one of the youngsters reached over and grabbed one. He frightened himself and took off around the indoor barn to thick to just open his mouth and drop it.

I was laughing so hard and I swear the other horses, just stood watching, were doing the same!


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## Acadianartist

Foxhunter said:


> I cannot ever remember a time when I have ever used a polythene bag to desensitise a horse. The only thing I have done is to tie a bucket either side of the saddle with some pebbles and cling film over the top so it rattles and bangs on the saddle.
> 
> I have never had horses frightened by bags, let the blighters have a chance to get hold of them and they play silly beggars with them! Then you will see them look at a bag on the ground when you are leading them past so, they get corrected for that.
> 
> I had a pile of feed sacks on the back of the ATV and one of the youngsters reached over and grabbed one. He frightened himself and took off around the indoor barn to thick to just open his mouth and drop it.
> 
> I was laughing so hard and I swear the other horses, just stood watching, were doing the same!


Yes, I've seen Harley do this. He thinks plastic bags are toys. But not all horses are like this, unfortunately. Some have gaps in their training, or perhaps they are just naturally more sensitive. Kodak was terrified of plastic bags. Not anymore, but given that she was afraid of them, we used some to desensitize her. Along with a bunch of other things. And once I was relatively confident she wasn't going to break my neck with one of her all-out spooks, I started exposing her to lots of other things. She's much better now.


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## Woodhaven

My thoughts on starting a young horse under saddle is, I expect them to behave and listen to me and do what I ask of them while on the ground, why wouldn't I expect the same when I am on their back? I maybe didn't do as much first few rides as some others but I did expect them to listen to me and go where and how I asked.
Usually I did so much with them before backing that this was just one more thing I did and they never fussed about it.


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## COWCHICK77

This post is a blast from the past! Lol


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## kewpalace

COWCHICK77 said:


> This post is a blast from the past! Lol


 @COWCHICK77, I was thinking the same thing! :cheers:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Very well said. I've always been told, "If you want a broke horse, ride them like they're broke.". No sneaking around here. And AMEN about the bit. Of COURSE they're going to disagree with having a bit in their mouth, it's NEW. Horses hate change. Just change one thing in their feed and see how they act. I think they're more paranoid than cats about change. "She put something new in the feed. I knew it, she really is going to kill me and eat me!". 

When I started Patti, kind of by accident because she was just so laid back, I got on her in her stall and just sat. No issues. Ok, so hubby led her around outside on a lead rope with me just sitting up top. No issues. No reins, no legs at that moment. Then the next time, he still had a lead rope but I also had 'reins' (a lead draped around her neck) and I steered with the reins and started applying leg. Just a little leg, only a few steps at a time, but still no issues. All this time I was also bareback, didn't have a saddle that fit her and at 2 wasn't going to buy one. So, we barebacked it all over the Catalinas in Tucson and she learned how to steer and how to balance with a rider and how to accept leg and seat pressure. I rode without a bit at first, again, didn't have one that fit, so we just skipped it. 

Then I introduced the bit. A Myler Comfort Snaffle, and you'd have thought I was killing her. And I wasn't even on her back. Just bitted her up in her stall, LOL! She got very emotional. So, we stood and waited and worked her way through the wall eyed fit stage. Then we moved outside to the lunge pen and just worked in circles with the bit in our mouth, free lunging, no pressure on her face. Drama again but only for a few minutes. Then we started with the surcingle and side reins so she could learn how to give herself some relief from pressure and to give to it. MORE Drama! LOL! But you know what? She got through it and she didn't die.


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