# APHA Stallion Conformation



## Aesthetic

He's not as muscular as most stallions, I am aware. He was just a pastured horse before we got him, just wasting away. Here he is. 

In this picture, He isn't mostly square, his back legs aren't -.- Silly boy.


























That's a better one for his legs. 










He's just turned 9 years old. His bloodline consists of paints, quarter horses and thoroughbreds. If that helps you at all


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## DraftyAiresMum

He's got disproportionately long legs in comparison to his body.

His hocks are set very high. He also appears to be seriously sickle hocked.

He's over at the knee and tied in behind the knee. His pasterns are extremely upright all the way around. 

His neck ties in low on his chest and he is pigeon breasted. His shoulder appears to be upright, as well.

He does have a relatively short back.

All in all, he'd make a cute gelding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear

He has some terribly long upright pasterns that makes me disregard him for breeding purposes. I can't comment on him as a stallion with that serious confirmation flaw that he can pass on, sorry.


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## silverslinky

I actually quite like this horse, you can really see the thoroughbred influence,

Leggy, level to upright build, short back, and high set neck (though it does tie in a little low)

slightly upright shoulder, but I tend not to worry as much about that as most

I like his hindquarters to, and I disagree about the hocks being to high, I think it just looks that way because he's got a lot of leg.

That being said he's sickle hocked and those pasterns/knees are worrisome as well.

All in all I don't think he's close to stallion quality.


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## Elana

This horse has a low neck tie in to his base of shoulder and is very sickle hocked. He has long legs for his age and very upright and long pasterns. He is what happens sometimes when you mix Thoroughbred in.. you get a horse that mixes a bit like oil and water. 

He has the more upright pasterns of a stock horse while the length is thoroughbred. His hocks are small and round which is just poor conformation . They are also high off the ground like a thoroughbred but sickled which often comes from the stock horse side. He is built down hill (from the thoroughbred probably) with a thoroughbred shoulder and withers but a stock horse neck that is thick and course tying into the shoulder. 

His head is course looking. 

The last photo has him looking better but there is a knob on the front of the right hock.. probably thickened from the set in the hocks. 

This is a horse I would geld. This is not a horse I would choose to own based on what I see here. I might feel differently about that if I handled him. 

Stallion material his is most definitely not.


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## oh vair oh

Egads. I wouldn't chance those legs on a foal if somebody paid me to breed to him.

Or that neck. Or that head.

I guess the only thing you can say about him is that he's a homozygous tobiano. Congrats!


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## Kayella

He's got the neck of a QH and the butt of a TB. There's no overall balance to him. He looks as if he's walking on toothpicks and I would not have him stand up to the intensity of barrels. He will break down quickly. How old is he in the last picture? He looks like a 2 year old not even coming into their own body yet. Has he been tested for frame? His markings indicate he might carry it. 

Again, he'd make a nice gelding.

ETA: Actually, his legs remind me of my yearling's. They look so immature.


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## Aesthetic

Kayella said:


> He's got the neck of a QH and the butt of a TB. There's no overall balance to him. He looks as if he's walking on toothpicks and I would not have him stand up to the intensity of barrels. He will break down quickly. How old is he in the last picture? He looks like a 2 year old not even coming into their own body yet. Has he been tested for frame? His markings indicate he might carry it.
> 
> Again, he'd make a nice gelding.
> 
> ETA: Actually, his legs remind me of my yearling's. They look so immature.


All pictures are when hes 8. It was when we first ot him, hadnt been rode in a while. Vets said his legs would hold up, so we use him in barrels. Barrels and cutting are hard on the legs, he has been cutting since he was three and hasnt broken down. No problems. He is not being gelded.


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## oh vair oh

Well, there you have it.


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## kassierae

Because of the reasons stated, I wouldn't touch that horse with a ten foot pole for barrels or as a stallion. His legs are scary, and I thought my gelding's were bad. Your boy would make an adorable trail/pleasure gelding. Stallion quality he is not.

ETA: You say he has been cutting since he was three? He's only 9. Come back after another ten years and let me know how his legs hold up. My mare is cowhocked, and wasn't started on the pattern until she was 7. She ran once a month, five months out of the year, until she was 17, and the first few years were easy runs until we had our pattern down. She's now 20, and so stiff and arthritic(on top of an injury to her knee which makes it worse), I am contemplating having her PTS.


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## SullysRider

May I ask why you won't geld him? Honestly, as the others have stated and is the consensus, he is not stallion quality. And I used to barrel race, he will not hold up. Please do the right thing and geld him, then do riding that will keep him more comfortable in the long run, ie trail rides
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aesthetic

kassierae said:


> Because of the reasons stated, I wouldn't touch that horse with a ten foot pole for barrels or as a stallion. His legs are scary, and I thought my gelding's were bad. Your boy would make an adorable trail/pleasure gelding. Stallion quality he is not.
> 
> ETA: You say he has been cutting since he was three? He's only 9. Come back after another ten years and let me know how his legs hold up. My mare is cowhocked, and wasn't started on the pattern until she was 7. She ran once a month, five months out of the year, until she was 17, and the first few years were easy runs until we had our pattern down. She's now 20, and so stiff and arthritic(on top of an injury to her knee which makes it worse), I am contemplating having her PTS.


As i said before. He isnt being gelded.


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## Aesthetic

SullysRider said:


> May I ask why you won't geld him? Honestly, as the others have stated and is the consensus, he is not stallion quality. And I used to barrel race, he will not hold up. Please do the right thing and geld him, then do riding that will keep him more comfortable in the long run, ie trail rides
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If he works fine as a stallion and isnt problematic, why spend an extra $300 or $400 to geld him because of his age when hes fine as he is? Besides, in his next foal if my mare can counter whatever problems people are givig me, than so be it. Ill breed him.


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## kassierae

Sorry, but your horse is a conformational trainwreck. I was your age once and wanted to keep my appaloosa colt a stud. Until I woke up and smelled the coffee, realized that he was a trainwreck and called the vet the next day. You are doing that stallion NO favors by keeping his nads. All he has is a pretty color. People like ou are the reason so many horses are in the kill pen, rescues are over run, and the reason I can't GIVE away a well bred, well broke horse. Your horse has NOTHING to offer to the gene pool.


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## oh vair oh

Aesthetic said:


> If he works fine as a stallion and isnt problematic, why spend an extra $300 or $400 to geld him because of his age when hes fine as he is? Besides, in his next foal if my mare can counter whatever problems people are givig me, than so be it. Ill breed him.


That is certainly a different story than:



> he is open to breed whom ever would like to breed him and will pay a nice price.


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## Aesthetic

oh vair oh said:


> That is certainly a different story than:


You arent exactly making sense and or a point. This is a thread on his conformation whih people have been contributing too, not about if i should geld him, which im not.


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## SullysRider

kassierae said:


> Sorry, but your horse is a conformational trainwreck. I was your age once and wanted to keep my appaloosa colt a stud. Until I woke up and smelled the coffee, realized that he was a trainwreck and called the vet the next day. You are doing that stallion NO favors by keeping his nads. All he has is a pretty color. People like ou are the reason so many horses are in the kill pen, rescues are over run, and the reason I can't GIVE away a well bred, well broke horse. Your horse has NOTHING to offer to the gene pool.


Well said
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum

I'm not trying to be witchy or stir the pot, I'm honestly trying to understand your logic. 

Why, when SO many people who know what they're talking about have told you that this horse is not breeding quality and they wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole, are you keeping him a stud? Especially with SO many mediocre studs already out there? There is absolutely nothing special about this horse. Yes, I understand you love him and think he's all that and a bag of chips, but the reality is that he is going to pass on all his undesirable traits to his offspring and the world will end up with even more poorly-conformed horses who can't stand up to their jobs and have to be retired early or PTS.

I just truly do not understand why you think keeping him a stud is a great idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## oh vair oh

The thread is APHA Stallion Conformation.

We told you he would make a lovely gelding. He is not stallion or breeding material. 

So you acknowledge he has bad conformation but you are breeding him anyway because people will pay. It's very sad. Considering that makes the market for the paint horses I breed go down because it is so swamped with cheap foals on the ground.


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## Dustbunny

I can't add any to the comments already made...I'm just sorry to read he will be a breeding animal.


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## Aesthetic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I'm not trying to be witchy or stir the pot, I'm honestly trying to understand your logic.
> 
> Why, when SO many people who know what they're talking about have told you that this horse is not breeding quality and they wouldn't touch him with a ten-foot pole, are you keeping him a stud? Especially with SO many mediocre studs already out there? There is absolutely nothing special about this horse. Yes, I understand you love him and think he's all that and a bag of chips, but the reality is that he is going to pass on all his undesirable traits to his offspring and the world will end up with even more poorly-conformed horses who can't stand up to their jobs and have to be retired early or PTS.
> 
> I just truly do not understand why you think keeping him a stud is a great idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


did you not read what i posted? This thread isnt about whether id gwld him or not, because it is not happening. End of that story.


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## Aesthetic

oh vair oh said:


> The thread is APHA Stallion Conformation.
> 
> We told you he would make a lovely gelding. He is not stallion or breeding material.
> 
> So you acknowledge he has bad conformation but you are breeding him anyway because people will pay. It's very sad. Considering that makes the market for the paint horses I breed go down because it is so swamped with cheap foals on the ground.


I believe i said, if my mare can counter what bad traits he has, than sure ill breed him to her. I dont think anywhere here i said i would keep breeding him rather than to my own mare.


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## oh vair oh

Aesthetic said:


> I believe i said, if my mare can counter what bad traits he has, than sure ill breed him to her. I dont think anywhere here i said i would keep breeding him rather than to my own mare.


Oh, except for the jutlands and your friends who would love the experience of a foal.

Why should a mare have to counter the bad traits? Why can't a stallion just HAVE good traits to make an even better horse?


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## kassierae

You said in another thread you were going to stand him in 2014. Also, NO mare will fix ALL of his faults, which are rather severe. I thought my mare being cowhocked and sightly over at the knee was bad. Your stallion is sickle hocked, looks like an immature two year old, extremely fine boned, has long upright pasterns. Not things that should be passed on, period.


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## waresbear

It is your horse and you can do as you as please, but unfortunately breeding is a crapshoot. Look at the flaws of a stallion and all the flaws in the mare you are breeding him to, chances are the baby can inherit all those. Breeding a horse with long pasterns to a horse with short pasterns doesn't give the resulting foal medium ones, more often than not, the offspring will either get long or short ones. If you want to contribute to the horse world and make some coin, geld him, race him until he's solid, manage his shortcomings with the help of preventative veterinary medicine, he will be worth more money than you are going make keeping him intact. Whatever you choose, good luck, he looks well cared for and trained decently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SullysRider

Look hun, you're not doing any good by him by running his legs off. And I know you don't want to hear it, but what is being said here is the facts, you need to face them. He is not anywhere near stallion quality, and should NOT be allowed to breed. You asked for a conformation critique, you got it. You can't reject it because it's not what you wanted to hear. Based on his conformation he should be gelded and not used on barrels. You seem young, so I just hope you mature and come to your senses
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum

Aesthetic said:


> I believe i said, if my mare can counter what bad traits he has, than sure ill breed him to her. I dont think anywhere here i said i would keep breeding him rather than to my own mare.


Unfortunately, even a mare with perfect conformation isn't going to be able to offset the majority of the faults he has. And it's unfair to the mare and foal to experiment with them like that. Besides, with the train wreck that the stallion is, I sadly doubt your mare is much better, if you consider him breeding material.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Aesthetic

oh vair oh said:


> Oh, except for the jutlands and your friends who would love the experience of a foal.
> 
> Why should a mare have to counter the bad traits? Why can't a stallion just HAVE good traits to make an even better horse?


i have already agreed to cover his mares, so i will.


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## Aesthetic

SullysRider said:


> Look hun, you're not doing any good by him by running his legs off. And I know you don't want to hear it, but what is being said here is the facts, you need to face them. He is not anywhere near stallion quality, and should NOT be allowed to breed. You asked for a conformation critique, you got it. You can't reject it because it's not what you wanted to hear. Based on his conformation he should be gelded and not used on barrels. You seem young, so I just hope you mature and come to your senses
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hats not our decision. Sorry. Thr vets said he will hold up fine in barrels, and he gets ran about twice a month. Maybe three. So running hiss legs off, no.


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## Aesthetic

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Unfortunately, even a mare with perfect conformation isn't going to be able to offset the majority of the faults he has. And it's unfair to the mare and foal to experiment with them like that. Besides, with the train wreck that the stallion is, I sadly doubt your mare is much better, if you consider him breeding material.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Shes very nice. Far better than what i expected. I dont have any pictures of her wihout me on her back, and until after she foals i wont take any pictures to use for conformation. She's a nice mare, people we obtained her from say they regret selling her because of her last foal she produced was nice. And i regret selling the colt she produced. But my mare, is a nice mare.


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## wausuaw

I think my mare is nice, too. But, I'm not breeding her.


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## COWCHICK77

oh vair oh said:


> The thread is APHA Stallion Conformation.
> 
> We told you he would make a lovely gelding. He is not stallion or breeding material.
> 
> So you acknowledge he has bad conformation but you are breeding him anyway because people will pay. It's very sad. Considering that makes the market for the paint horses I breed go down because it is so swamped with cheap foals on the ground.


Exactly. There are already much better bred horses than this stallion ran through the sales going for a couple hundred dollars.


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## Golden Horse

Aesthetic said:


> If he works fine as a stallion and isnt problematic, why spend an extra $300 or $400 to geld him because of his age when hes fine as he is? Besides, in his next foal if my mare can counter whatever problems people are givig me, than so be it. Ill breed him.


Because it is better for your horse and the gene pool as a whole?

If a horse isn't of breeding quality it just seems cruel to me to leave him entire, he will have that strong desire to breed and never being allowed to can lead to temperament issues. Also you have to be on the alert everyday of his life to make sure that he is securely contained, and not going to cause any issues.

Purely a personal view, but having kept a breeding stallion here for a few years, who was as good as gold to handle, life is so much less stressful now he isn't here.


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## SullysRider

Aesthetic said:


> Hats not our decision. Sorry. Thr vets said he will hold up fine in barrels, and he gets ran about twice a month. Maybe three. So running hiss legs off, no.


When he can't even walk comfortably to his feed and water I hope you at least feel bad knowing you could've prevented it


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## Golden Horse

Aesthetic said:


> Shes very nice. Far better than what i expected. I dont have any pictures of her wihout me on her back, and until after she foals i wont take any pictures to use for conformation. She's a nice mare, people we obtained her from say they regret selling her because of her last foal she produced was nice. And i regret selling the colt she produced. But my mare, is a nice mare.


Nice is great, I love nice. I have a very nice gelding, and I have a bunch of really really nice mares. Now one mare is beyond nice, she has bred several spectacular foals, when crossed with top notch stallions.

One of her daughters I happen to think is way way better than nice, and I have a proven, spectacular stud lined up for her, but I'm still hesitating.

But back to the subject in hand, you guy is a really cute horse, and would make a really really nice gelding. As breeding stock though 'nice' is a failure, you breed awesome, spectacular, fantastic, and hope that the offspring make it to nice. 

Seriously if you posted this guy as a gelding, people would still point out is flaws, is asked, but would still wish you well an like him, because he is all sorts of cute. You could have great fun with him doing anything you want. What you are trying to do is make him something he just isn't and that leads to heartbreak for someone. Love him for what he is, not what you want him to be.


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## Aesthetic

Golden Horse said:


> Nice is great, I love nice. I have a very nice gelding, and I have a bunch of really really nice mares. Now one mare is beyond nice, she has bred several spectacular foals, when crossed with top notch stallions.
> 
> One of her daughters I happen to think is way way better than nice, and I have a proven, spectacular stud lined up for her, but I'm still hesitating.
> 
> But back to the subject in hand, you guy is a really cute horse, and would make a really really nice gelding. As breeding stock though 'nice' is a failure, you breed awesome, spectacular, fantastic, and hope that the offspring make it to nice.
> 
> Seriously if you posted this guy as a gelding, people would still point out is flaws, is asked, but would still wish you well an like him, because he is all sorts of cute. You could have great fun with him doing anything you want. What you are trying to do is make him something he just isn't and that leads to heartbreak for someone. Love him for what he is, not what you want him to be.[/QUOTe
> 
> thank you, i respect this comment because you are not attackin me like others. I bred her because her last foal was a stunning colt. She is thirteen and i wanted.one more prospect to work with. And with the two personalities, it should be a calm foal. As for everything else, people assume im Going to Keep him up, but once again being attacked isnt goig to result in many answers to anyone. Thank you for the calm and non-sarcastic response.


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## CCH

I would be interested to see videos of him cutting.

I did watch all your barrel/pole videos on the other thread, and thought he looked to be bunny hopping a bit and definitely short strided behind. Because of the angle, lighting and shortness of the video, I won't take a guess as to whether his movement is from stifle/hock issues, his inexperience or need for different training/riding/physical fitting.

I will say that I agree with much of what has been posted regarding conformation. It is America though and I support our free market system. I hope you take some of this to heart and try to grow as a horseman & stallion owner. I do think if you want anyone to take you seriously, that you must get his papers transferred to your name, stallion list him, do all the proper genetic testing, and only breed to mares that have a definite improvement on him. That means registered mares with impeccable limb conformation and good slope.


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## Lopin N Paint

Aesthetic,

If your going to keep him a stallion that's on you...

...but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE test him for whatever genetic diseases are needed, talk with your vet and do your research on what you need to know about which genetic diseases your horse may have. HYPP and HERDA are the most common...


However today, it pains me to say this :-(. I had to put down my beloved and cherished 11 year old reg paint gelding... I loved him, but after yet another PSSM attack he just was not coming back like he should, after much consulting with my vet and his trainer, we decided it was best to let him go... It sucked royally. I do not wish this on anyone. I will carry this experience with me the rest of my life.


If your gunna talk the talk, walk the walk... DO GENETIC TESTING.


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## Aesthetic

Lopin N Paint said:


> Aesthetic,
> 
> If your going to keep him a stallion that's on you...
> 
> ...but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE test him for whatever genetic diseases are needed, talk with your vet and do your research on what you need to know about which genetic diseases your horse may have. HYPP and HERDA are the most common...
> 
> 
> However today, it pains me to day this :-(. I had to put down my beloved and cherished 11 year old reg paint gelding... I loved him, but after yet another PSSM attack he just was not coming back like he should, after much consulting with my vet and his trainer, we decided it was best to let him go... It sucked royally. I do not wish this on anyone. I will carry this experience with me the rest of my life.
> 
> 
> If your gunna talk the talk, walk the walk... DO GENETIC TESTING.


Im so sorry to hear for your loss, but im sure after going through what he did it was the best. Im so sorry. I will get my stallion tested, he may already have been but i dont believe he has been. Thank you for the concern, i will indeed make sure my little man is clean


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## Aesthetic

CCH said:


> I would be interested to see videos of him cutting.
> 
> I did watch all your barrel/pole videos on the other thread, and thought he looked to be bunny hopping a bit and definitely short strided behind. Because of the angle, lighting and shortness of the video, I won't take a guess as to whether his movement is from stifle/hock issues, his inexperience or need for different training/riding/physical fitting.
> 
> I will say that I agree with much of what has been posted regarding conformation. It is America though and I support our free market system. I hope you take some of this to heart and try to grow as a horseman & stallion owner. I do think if you want anyone to take you seriously, that you must get his papers transferred to your name, stallion list him, do all the proper genetic testing, and only breed to mares that have a definite improvement on him. That means registered mares with impeccable limb conformation and good slope.


Currently we are getting his papers transfered. He hasnt cut since i believe 2010, when i think he was bought by a man named John. Not sure. I will call him up and ask if he has any. We personally dont cut, lack of facility and cows needed to do so. He however didnt go to competition because he was to tall, at 16hh. He doesnt have a stifle problem, nor a hock issue. He has been checked. The mare i have right now has a great hind end. Ill try and get a decent picture of her after she foals. He only 'problem' she has is scar tissue on one of her i believe right front leg.


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## CCH

Aesthetic said:


> He however didnt go to competition because he was to tall, at 16hh.


The horse in my profile photo is 16H and weighed 1380lbs before retiring from heavy hauling. He did quite well. Another recent example, Woody Be Lucky, the 2011 NCHA Non-Pro world champion has earnings over 600,000 and is nicknamed "Super Freak" because he is huge.

On the other end of the spectrum, take the late Theodore O'Conner, a 14.1H pony competing and winning against horses 8 inches taller. While these are examples of exception to the norm, there are many horses that are taller or shorter than the "average" for their sport, Super Freak & Teddy are just the famous ones that many will have heard of.

Height alone does not have near as much effect on performance as some believe. Balance, proportion, and musculature (i.e. good conformation) as well as training and the magic ingredient of "heart" are what make for the best performers.


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## Aesthetic

CCH said:


> The horse in my profile photo is 16H and weighed 1380lbs before retiring from heavy hauling. He did quite well. Another recent example, Woody Be Lucky, the 2011 NCHA Non-Pro world champion has earnings over 600,000 and is nicknamed "Super Freak" because he is huge.
> 
> On the other end of the spectrum, take the late Theodore O'Conner, a 14.1H pony competing and winning against horses 8 inches taller. While these are examples of exception to the norm, there are many horses that are taller or shorter than the "average" for their sport, Super Freak & Teddy are just the famous ones that many will have heard of.
> 
> Height alone does not have near as much effect on performance as some believe. Balance, proportion, and musculature (i.e. good conformation) as well as training and the magic ingredient of "heart" are what make for the best performers.



Really? The trainer that trained him said he was to tall to compete, and started workig with a 15.2 hh gelding. He said Chief was fantastic at his job but just was to tall to get low enough for the level of competiTion.


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## Golden Horse

CCH said:


> Height alone does not have near as much effect on performance as some believe. Balance, proportion, and musculature (i.e. good conformation) as well as training and the* magic ingredient of "heart"* are what make for the best performers.


:thumbsup: this is so true, without that you have nothing. A superstar athlete any any discipline has to have that magic.


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## Aesthetic

Golden Horse said:


> :thumbsup: this is so true, without that you have nothing. A superstar athlete any any discipline has to have that magic.


He best horses always have hat heart no one can break. Makes me miss my paint gelding:/ that sucker had some serious heart. He was one of those lucky guys. No bloodlines, and one of his front legs was shorter than the other. But man that horse could run. He won a saddle for a lady when he was four and a local vet was watchig him and hats how they found out about his leg. He could run a long while. . True heart and spirit


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## TheLastUnicorn

From the front back... This horse has a coarse head, very thick, lowset neck, what appears to be a very steep shoulder slope, he appears to be acceptable in shoulder angle, his cannons appear long, and he lacks bone, his pasterns are upright and on the long side, his back length isn't terrible, but he has a long loin, LS placement is not terrible, he seems to have adequate pelvic length (hip) but the angle of it is a little shallow, he matches that all the way down his hind leg making him post legged, with high set hocks. His overall mechanical balance is downhill, which is not terrible in a race horse, but not idea for most riding disciplines. 

This horse might be a good jack of all trades guy for someone who just wants a cute colored horse to play with... But I wouldn't necessarily see him as potential "top of the game" material - in a breed like Paints (and QH's) where they are literally a dime a dozen, without trying to sound mean, he just wouldn't be a stallion I would breed to, there just isn't much about him which will improve a mare, or the breed as a whole... And until he has both papers and his genetic testing done he just isn't a gamble I would take with the market being as it is... No matter how cheap his stud fee. 

As an aside... There is absolutely no reason at all you need to breed a stallion just because he has testicles. (Though generally speaking gelding him would likely be kindest for his mental health.... This is dependant on how he is able to be kept). In many countries they do not geld male horses, even if they are never, ever, bred.


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## Aesthetic

TheLastUnicorn said:


> From the front back... This horse has a coarse head, very thick, lowset neck, what appears to be a very steep shoulder slope, he appears to be acceptable in shoulder angle, his cannons appear long, and he lacks bone, his pasterns are upright and on the long side, his back length isn't terrible, but he has a long loin, LS placement is not terrible, he seems to have adequate pelvic length (hip) but the angle of it is a little shallow, he matches that all the way down his hind leg making him post legged, with high set hocks. His overall mechanical balance is downhill, which is not terrible in a race horse, but not idea for most riding disciplines.
> 
> This horse might be a good jack of all trades guy for someone who just wants a cute colored horse to play with... But I wouldn't necessarily see him as potential "top of the game" material - in a breed like Paints (and QH's) where they are literally a dime a dozen, without trying to sound mean, he just wouldn't be a stallion I would breed to, there just isn't much about him which will improve a mare, or the breed as a whole... And until he has both papers and his genetic testing done he just isn't a gamble I would take with the market being as it is... No matter how cheap his stud fee.
> 
> As an aside... There is absolutely no reason at all you need to breed a stallion just because he has testicles. (Though generally speaking gelding him would likely be kindest for his mental health.... This is dependant on how he is able to be kept). In many countries they do not geld male horses, even if they are never, ever, bred.


Thank you for your input.


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## CCH

Aesthetic said:


> Really? The trainer that trained him said he was to tall to compete, and started workig with a 15.2 hh gelding. He said Chief was fantastic at his job but just was to tall to get low enough for the level of competiTion.


That may have been the trainer's way of communicating that Chief's legs couldn't flex enough while still supporting him because of the joint angles of his fetlocks, knees, hocks & stifles and overall upright leg conformation. It isn't a height issue so much as balance. He may well be cowy and try hard, but I doubt he has the physical ability to use his hind end in an advantageous way [in terms of cutting at the least] based on his conformation.


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## Aesthetic

CCH said:


> That may have been the trainer's way of communicating that Chief's legs couldn't flex enough while still supporting him because of the joint angles of his fetlocks, knees, hocks & stifles and overall upright leg conformation. It isn't a height issue so much as balance. He may well be cowy and try hard, but I doubt he has the physical ability to use his hind end in an advantageous way based on his conformation.


I dont what his ahletic extent is for cutting, but from how he works in practice he was decent.in barrels. I had a woman very interested in him for either a hunter or show jumping horse. Im not sure if you know much on that subject, but i have a little cousin looking for a cross rail jumper. That will eventually move into a lwrger class with higher rails. Do you think he would work nicely for her?


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## TheLastUnicorn

CCH - you nailed it. His leg, especially hindlimb, construction would limit him. The same will go for most riding disciplines beyond starter levels.... Or if he has tons of heart, he might do alright for a few years on sheer will to please then wind up with soundness issues later.


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## SullysRider

He isn't suited for hunter/jumper. The way his hind end is structured wouldn't allow him to use himself like he needs to is those disciplines, and just wouldn't hold up in the long run
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLastUnicorn

Aesthetic said:


> I dont what his ahletic extent is for cutting, but from how he works in practice he was decent.in barrels. I had a woman very interested in him for either a hunter or show jumping horse. Im not sure if you know much on that subject, but i have a little cousin looking for a cross rail jumper. That will eventually move into a lwrger class with higher rails. Do you think he would work nicely for her?


I'm sure he can do cross rails... But most places have rules against youth riding stallions, so he would likely need gelding if your cousin is young and wanted to use him. Could he do Higher jumps? again, he might have enough heart to try for you, but in the end his conformation will limit him.... How high is "higher" too... Are we talking 2'9 or 4'? 

The best jumpers tend to have a more laidback shoulder slope, a more open shoulder angle, a shorter loin, and a more angulated hindquarter, and more bone is often preferred.


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## CCH

Aesthetic said:


> I dont what his ahletic extent is for cutting, but from how he works in practice he was decent.in barrels. I had a woman very interested in him for either a hunter or show jumping horse. Im not sure if you know much on that subject, but i have a little cousin looking for a cross rail jumper. That will eventually move into a lwrger class with higher rails. Do you think he would work nicely for her?


When it comes to English, I will leave that for those much more experienced than I am. I have some amazing friends who show at high levels in dressage and some hunter jumper stuff, but I met them because they do cross over showing in cutting. I quit english many years ago after doing breed showing as a youth which is vastly different than proper english riding. I do LOVE George Morris' articles!!

If I had to say though, I would bet that having upright pasterns would cause his coffin & fetlock joint to take a pounding while jumping. Will it cause lameness or arthritis - maybe, maybe not. The only plus is that he is fully grown and his epiphyseal plates won't be an issue like they are when people jump 3-6 year olds.


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## Aesthetic

TheLastUnicorn said:


> I'm sure he can do cross rails... But most places have rules against youth riding stallions, so he would likely need gelding if your cousin is young and wanted to use him. Could he do Higher jumps? again, he might have enough heart to try for you, but in the end his conformation will limit him.... How high is "higher" too... Are we talking 2'9 or 4'?
> 
> The best jumpers tend to have a more laidback shoulder slope, a more open shoulder angle, a shorter loin, and a more angulated hindquarter, and more bone is often preferred.


Right now she is learning basic. Flat and cross. Im sure she will use him up to about 2'9 or so. Nothing big. Shes 15. I am not really sure what the status is on stallions. When i was younger, i think 12, there was a 16-17 year old who used a nice wetphalian stallion.


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## Elana

FWIW I don't care if you geld him. He can stay intact. He may never need 'em but he can keep 'em.

He would make a great teaser stallion..... 

That way he gets to be a boy and never pass any of that poor conformation on.


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## Aesthetic

Elana said:


> FWIW I don't care if you geld him. He can stay intact. He may never need 'em but he can keep 'em.
> 
> He would make a great teaser stallion.....
> 
> That way he gets to be a boy and never pass any of that poor conformation on.


genius. Absolutely genius. I never thought of using him as a teaser stallion. we have always teased wih the stallion we breed with.


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## Golden Horse

WOW, how little you think of your horse than to condemn him to the life of a teaser stallion:twisted:

That is like giving me a job in a chocolate factory but saying I can never ever eat any of it.


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## Aesthetic

Golden Horse said:


> WOW, how little you think of your horse than to condemn him to the life of a teaser stallion:twisted:
> 
> That is like giving me a job in a chocolate factory but saying I can never ever eat any of it.


Im being told he is no good to breed, and im not gelding him. So a teaser stallion would be a nice spot for him. And well those jobs happen dont they.


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## Elana

I was being facetious.... there are those who do not cut a stud because of some anthropomorphized thinking that has us equating a stud with a human... 

On the Thoroughbred farms they NEVER use the stallion they breed with to tease. I have never seen a professional operation where the breeding stallions are used to tease. 

There are farms where they do not ever stand a stud but they keep one for teasing mares. the teaser is not bred. Of course, the mares are all bred (to top of the line stallions elsewhere) and preggo for most of the year and he is no where near the yearlings and weanlings.. so no horses in heat to get him going. 

That being said, the stallion on such an operation does not have the greatest life. He is isolated and while well cared for and well fed, his socialism with humans or horses is pretty limited. Some farms use a pony or mini stud to tease mares. However, some mares won't show for a pony or mini stud. 

The stallions I knew that were teasers were most often race horses that were colts that broke down on the track and were not of good enough lines to use to breed with. 

Is life for a teasing stallion BAD? No.. just colorless.. even if the horse is a paint.


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## BarrelracingArabian

a stallion is not a good mount for a young rider so I would go against him for your cousin just for the fact that there will be mares around , he is a stud and your cousin isn't advanced enough to know how to handle that situation, heck I'm not even willing to be in that situation. I do know many places won't allow anyone under 18 to show a stallion. 

Teaser stallion isn't a bad idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse

OK, the teaser stallion question has me thinking, and to avoid de railing this thread even further I have asked the question on a new thread http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/*spin-off-thread*-teaser-stallions-182777/#post2356441

Elana I have quoted you there not to be nasty or anything, but to give a context to my question. I am just interested in how people feel about this one.


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## Aesthetic

BarrelracingArabian said:


> a stallion is not a good mount for a young rider so I would go against him for your cousin just for the fact that there will be mares around , he is a stud and your cousin isn't advanced enough to know how to handle that situation, heck I'm not even willing to be in that situation. I do know many places won't allow anyone under 18 to show a stallion.
> 
> Teaser stallion isn't a bad idea.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Chief has had an 8 year old girl ride him around at an event. We wouldnt take him if he wasnt kid safe. He has had mares squat and pee about four or five feet infront of him and he wont do a thing. Sure he sniffs like any other stallion or proud cut, but he wont flehmanor he wont move toward her, whinny, or drop. The man who trained him for cutting trained him very nice stallion manners.


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## Djinnjer

OP - I don't post a lot, as I figure I still need to read & learn more than share, but this thread made me want to offer you another perspective on the idea of not gelding him. 

I've not got nearly enough experience yet to make any critique. However, there are many seasoned people/experts on this forum whose opinions I value greatly and love learning from their experience and believe that he is probably not one you want to keep a stud. They have given you good advice and while I understand you would like to be able to earn some $$ with your stud, or maybe just a personal reason for not wanting to geld him, please at least consider looking at it from another standpoint, one that I offer with personal experience. 

Your horse is a stud, he wants to breed. It's the way nature made him. Horses do escape sometimes, no matter how great your enclosure and studs do breed others' mares accidentally. My neighbor has a stud he also refuses to geld and occasionally he does show up here, where I have a young mare. So far I have seen or heard him before he got close enough to her to get up to no good and we have avoided accidental breeding. So far...and I go out of my way to try to ensure that doesn't happen. But my mare carries frame and he appears to possibly also carry frame and that frightens me. Should he ever get to her and manage to breed her, I'm potentially stuck with the loss and heartbreak of her delivering a lethal white. Unless we were able to know she'd been bred and stop the pregnancy early.

From that standpoint alone, why chance him accidentally breeding someone else's mare and possibly throwing a lethal white foal (I agree with other(s) about the potential for frame there)? Or as others have said, throwing foals could end up going to slaughter, or end up abused, neglected and/or PTS early because they couldn't hold up to hard work long-term? 

Just please at least consider gelding him. He does have beautiful coloring and looks like a good-minded horse, why not just love & enjoy him as a gelding and give him a little different (or less) work?


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## Aesthetic

Djinnjer said:


> OP - I don't post a lot, as I figure I still need to read & learn more than share, but this thread made me want to offer you another perspective on the idea of not gelding him.
> 
> I've not got nearly enough experience yet to make any critique. However, there are many seasoned people/experts on this forum whose opinions I value greatly and love learning from their experience and believe that he is probably not one you want to keep a stud. They have given you good advice and while I understand you would like to be able to earn some $$ with your stud, or maybe just a personal reason for not wanting to geld him, please at least consider looking at it from another standpoint, one that I offer with personal experience.
> 
> Your horse is a stud, he wants to breed. It's the way nature made him. Horses do escape sometimes, no matter how great your enclosure and studs do breed others' mares accidentally. My neighbor has a stud he also refuses to geld and occasionally he does show up here, where I have a young mare. So far I have seen or heard him before he got close enough to her to get up to no good and we have avoided accidental breeding. So far...and I go out of my way to try to ensure that doesn't happen. But my mare carries frame and he appears to possibly also carry frame and that frightens me. Should he ever get to her and manage to breed her, I'm potentially stuck with the loss and heartbreak of her delivering a lethal white. Unless we were able to know she'd been bred and stop the pregnancy early.
> 
> From that standpoint alone, why chance him accidentally breeding someone else's mare and possibly throwing a lethal white foal (I agree with other(s) about the potential for frame there)? Or as others have said, throwing foals could end up going to slaughter, or end up abused, neglected and/or PTS early because they couldn't hold up to hard work long-term?
> 
> Just please at least consider gelding him. He does have beautiful coloring and looks like a good-minded horse, why not just love & enjoy him as a gelding and give him a little different (or less) work?


As i said before. Im not gelding him. Thank you though


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## DraftyAiresMum

Aesthetic said:


> and im not gelding him.


Which once again begs the question: WHY NOT?

Is it the money? Use the money from covering those two Jutland mares.

Talk to Poco1220 on here. She had an absolutely superb paint stallion that she used to breed and then made the decision to geld him when she was no longer going to use him for breeding. Come to find out, he made an even better gelding!

The thing about a stud is that, no matter how well they are trained, you always have to watch them and be on alert. Natural instincts (especially the instincts to breed) can take over at any moment and can, and will, override any training he has. The desire/instinct to procreate comes before all and they don't have the reasoning abilities of humans to say "Wait, what I'm doing may hurt someone or goes against all the training I've had."

The life of a stud unable to breed is no life I'd wish on even the rankest stallion. Nothing but endless frustration, which can easily turn to violence.

Everyone always says "But Snookums would never hurt me"...and then they end up in the hospital because "Snookums" did what any stallion intent on mating would do and removed the obstacle (the owner) keeping him from doing what millions of years of biology and instinct is telling him to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

Aesthetic said:


> Im being told he is no good to breed, and im not gelding him. So a teaser stallion would be a nice spot for him. And well those jobs happen dont they.


So even if you decide that he is not good enough to breed what is your reasoning behind still keeping him a stallion?


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## Dustbunny

Aesthetic said:


> Chief has had an 8 year old girl ride him around at an event. We wouldnt take him if he wasnt kid safe. He has had mares squat and pee about four or five feet infront of him and he wont do a thing. Sure he sniffs like any other stallion or proud cut, but he wont flehmanor he wont move toward her, whinny, or drop. The man who trained him for cutting trained him very nice stallion manners.


Dear God...
Is this thread continuing simply to see how many people come uncorked????


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## Aesthetic

Because i dont want to geld him. Simple as that. My stud my choice, correct?


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## Lockwood

The responses here have been varied and good. Now it’s time to put this thread to rest and the let the OP do decide what to do with her horse.


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