# Saddle Seat Riders: Feel Out Of Place?



## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

What sort of training devices do you use that you get ridiculed for?


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

^ I think that's the question here.

There are some devices who are just flat out cruel, with no excuse otherwise. I know several saddle seat riders who are horsemen just like the rest of us, but some use things that should NOT acceptable.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

I'm curious too, are the methods you use truly controversial or just misunderstood? Have you tried explaining your tools? 

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I find it hard to be accepted with an attitude like "I refuse to ride anything but Saddleseat". I hope you're more accepting then how you're coming across. You could learn about your friends discipline and teach them about yours, that may make everyone feel better?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

^ I agree with that too.

It's just as annoying as the people who are "I will ONLY ride english!" Or "I will ONLY ride western!" followed closely by "English sucks!" or "Western is stupid!"

There really does have to be a neutral acception. It doesn't have to be your sport. I was born into a family of reining and reined cowhorse and LOVE it to death, but it's not my main focus. I tried doing the eventing thing for awhile, decided that wasn't my thing either. I'd always at least gone to play days with my reining horse just to play with barrels and poles and other gymkhana events and have decided that barrel horses are where my main passion is. That said, I learned so much that could be applied to my barrel horses from these other disciplines I tried. It has made my horses 110% better from that experience.

Moral of the story, keep an open mind, relax and reach mutual understanding.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

SorrelHorse said:


> It's just as annoying as the people who are "I will ONLY ride english!" Or "I will ONLY ride western!"


Actually, there's nothing wrong with either of those phrases. I only ride English. Tried Western, and it wasn't for me. Doesn't mean I think Western disciplines 'suck'.

I love watching speed events and team penning, but that doesn't mean I have to want to ride them. Spectators are important too. :wink:

Yes OP, what gear are you using? Some things are very controversial.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Lol SR you know what I mean. I'm talking about those horse show snobs and kids who have the "it's my way or the highway" attitude.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Years ago I'd ride any horse and use whatever saddle the owner had. A few old pelters I regretted using but overall it didn't matter english or western. And we had enough manners to never condemn someone else's choice. Ahh, show snobs. At a large jumping competition a farmer showed up in his coveralls leading a stout horse with lots of draft in it. It was immaculately groomed and it's dark bay coat gleamed dapples in the sun. He saddled the horse with an older english saddle and slipped the snaffle bit in. You could almost feel the affection between those two. A young skinny lad of about 14 was boosted into the saddle. You could hear the sniggers from other riders as the lad didn't have a "proper" jacket but rather his Sunday jacket in a brown tweed. The other riders did the jump course and the kid went last and put the whole works to shame. Like the farmer, he and that horse were partners and flew over the jumps. Comments like Beginner's luck abounded but the trio cleaned up all summer, they were unbeatable.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I don't see anything wrong with only wanting to ride Saddleseat. It is comfortable for one thing. It is fun. As far as action devices, I was not big on them. I did use developers to build muscle but not big on chains as I think that the weight bouncing constantly on the pastern can be damaging and quite frankly, isn't worth it to me. Teaching a horse to collect and lift works great. 


I did feel a bit uncomfortable for about a month while I was in basically a Quarterhorse barn with my Saddlebreds while waiting for the other barn to open. It was.... interesting. They would all sit around staring at my horse like she was an alien and all commented about how Hyper and Psycho she was because she held her head up and moved out at a trot. ha ha 

When I moved to a different barn there were many Quarterhorse trainers and several Saddlebred trainers. They barely mixed and there were multiple indoor arenas and they didn't mix in their either. I got along with everyone in that barn and learned a lot about other disciplines. Thankfully, most of the other people learned to appreciate my horses as well. I think you how you portray yourself will make a difference. Be willing to answer questions, don't be defensive and treat people with respect, just like you would like to be treated. Kill them with kindness, so to speak.


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## kavalon (Dec 17, 2012)

When I rode saddleseat I felt like an outcast too. I was in a group call FFA and all the girls in my chapter would be so rude about me riding saddleseat saying how cruel it was (once they found out what it was, as they were all mostly wannabe barrel racers) and to be honest I dont think its cruel. Its just the way it is and it has been that way for years. Saddleseat and Saddlebreds (idk if thats what breed you ride) is so amazing and beautiful. These horses are true performers. But I definatly felt people looked at me different for riding saddleseat I felt very out of place.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

If your soring your horse, or using stacked shoes, I understand why you are being ostracized.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

kavalon said:


> When I rode saddleseat I felt like an outcast too. I was in a group call FFA and all the girls in my chapter would be so rude about me riding saddleseat saying how cruel it was (once they found out what it was, as they were all mostly wannabe barrel racers) and to be honest I dont think its cruel. Its just the way it is and it has been that way for years. Saddleseat and Saddlebreds (idk if thats what breed you ride) is so amazing and beautiful. These horses are true performers. But I definatly felt people looked at me different for riding saddleseat I felt very out of place.


You should have seen the look on the faces of the barrel racers at the barn when I tore around the barrels on my Saddlebred with a flat saddle and full bridle on. They changed their tune after that and we all got along just fine. Teaching people what you are about in a nice way goes a lot further to mend fences then to just do your thing and feel upset about what they might be thinking. 



> Joe4d If your soring your horse, or using stacked shoes, I understand why you are being ostracized.


As far as I know, Tennessee walkers are the only ones that are sored and that is also a small percentage of those. Only the Big Lick horses. MOST Saddleseat riders wouldn't consider such a dispicable thing. It is sickening and cruel and has no place in the horse world. Personally wish anyone that has been involved in that would spend the rest of their lives behind bars. The OP didn't say what breed she/he rides.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

What is out that they feel you're doing so wrong? 

I rode saddleseat for years and still ride my friend's saddleseat arab and nsh. Of course, riding and showing arabs and nshs in a qh and hunter/jumper area, I was well accustomed to the "looks" and "crazy horse" comments. In fact, when I first got my gelding as a long yearling, the were a couple of boarders who wouldn't ride when I was working my crazy ay-arab in the arena. 

People who judge you and your horse because you do something different or move differently than they're used to seeing tend to be the ones I'm most likely to ignore.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Overly long toes, stacked shoes , chains, straps and other abusive items are associated with saddleseat and the exaggerated steps. Could be the source of your problem if thats what you're doing. if it's not what your doing thats great, ride your horse and enjoy.


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## kavalon (Dec 17, 2012)

That's awesome! I would have loved to do that!


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## SaddleSeatCowgirl (Dec 16, 2012)

To answer everyone's question, I use a saddle and bridle. When I use a double or full (show) bridle it always has a low port. My farrier uses show pads (shoes) on some of the horses that show under the Show Pleasure and Park horse classes. To add motion or action to the Country Pleasure and Classic pleasure (and sometimes Academy) division horses, Bands and Chains are used in lessons about twice per month. These devices strengthen the muscles in the horses legs using resistance to result in the horse picking their feet up higher. I do believe that these methods are misunderstood through the horse world because Jumpers and Western riders don't understand that a) we DO NOT just go in circles on the rail, b) We work hard to get the horse's headset and feet picked up. Just like any disciplnie, we love our horses and work hard to get to where we are and do well.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

....
Well I'm done anyone else wanna have a go.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

SaddleSeatCowgirl said:


> To add motion or action to the Country Pleasure and Classic pleasure (and sometimes Academy) division horses, Bands and Chains are used in lessons about twice per month. These devices strengthen the muscles in the horses legs using resistance to result in the horse picking their feet up higher.


How does that work when horses don't even have muscles in their lower legs?


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> How does that work when horses don't even have muscles in their lower legs?


Developers or stretchers build up the muscles,(chest, legs, shoulders neck) there is nothing cruel about them unless they are over used or too short making it too much resistance. With anything, muscle must be built up slowly and over a period of time. The cruel ones are the weekend warriors who don't regularly do anything with their horses but then put developers on to show off their horses gait. They are much like the rubber bands humans use in resistance training. Same theory. 

Also, the pads that are used in Saddlebreds, and even wedges are not like the giant shoes used in the Big Lick events. As with any discipline there are those that are not nice and worry only about winning and will do things that are less ethical. Show me a discipline of any kind that doesn't have some bad apples. It is unfortunate as they ruin it for everyone.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I don't see anything wrong with anything that was just described. I think the people who are giving you grief just don't understand the discipline and see the unfamiliar as scary and dangerous. It happens. You may try to ask any of them if they have any questions. 

I know with my guy, I'll get odd questions or I make jokes about his breed. I call him "Crazy Pony" and make jokes about him being weird and having quirks. It seems to make people feel more comfortable and then they'll ask me questions. Most commonly, I am asked what I do with his tail (I braid it and vet wrap it), why he's small/if he'll get bigger, what I'm going to do with him/am I going to jump him, etc, etc.

I would just take other people's comments with a grain of salt, answer any questions they have, and try not to take anything personally.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I dont think you give people enough credit. I and others perfectly understand wrapping chains around a horses pastern and stacked shoes. To answer your original question. You feel out of place because people dont want to be associated with people that participate in barbaric, abusive practices.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Inga said:


> Developers or stretchers build up the muscles,(chest, legs, shoulders neck)


So these "stretchers" go around the horse's bodies and not their legs? I have never seen that. Do you have a video?


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> So these "stretchers" go around the horse's bodies and not their legs? I have never seen that. Do you have a video?


 
No, they go from one front pastern to the other front. Think about a person doing physical therapy with the rubber bands. When you do that yourself you will see that you don't just feel it in your wrist, it builds muscle in your chest and arms. Depending on how you are using it, your neck and back as well. Nothing cruel about that unless over used.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

General pads on a horse are not abusive. A lot of times they are used for shock absorption, creating a more stable base, and adding a little extra length so you won't have to make up for it in foot. The normal saddleseat pads are not the monstrous things you see with TWHs. You will never see a stack like that outside their world. Chains are not heavy and do not hurt when used alone. When used with caustic chemicals, that again, only the TWH folks use, then yes they hurt. For trotting horses they are used to encourage the horse to lift up and out as if they were trying to step out of them. Stretchers are there to develop the leg lifting muscles in the shoulder and chest and provide a little more strength training. With both chains and stretchers, some horses will react to them an use them, others will not. The ones that won't, there isn't much you can do to force them. For trotting horses, they have to be made and capable of that movement, as I cannot be forced. It can be encouraged, but you can't make one do it if they can't or won't. 

If you don't have open minded people who want to learn and want to make you feel bad, don't worry about it. Don't let them get to you. Do your best to teach them, but it is very difficult. If you can't, you can't. Like with our horses, you can't force them. You just keep being nice. Compliment their horses. Listen when they talk sense. Ignore them when they are being jerks. Keep your own mind open. Let them take care of themselves. 

You sound a bit like me. I am very reluctant to try H/J or dressage or any "english" other than saddleseat because of the ridicule I have endured from people of that background. I have since made a few decent and caring friends who understand. They almost have me convinced to try another English. Western folks, psh. They are awesome. Accepting and friendly. Yes, there are snobs there too, but I have found better friends quicker in western circles than English. It is just the way they are. My experiences if you compliment an English rider on her horse the response you get is "I know." You compliment a western rider on her horse it is "Thank you!" And if you compliment a KY mountain horse rider, you are invited to dinner and church an out to ride and trade recipes....they will destroy you with niceness. Hehehe. I am just kidding of course. Except for the KY Mountain horse people. I know lots of wonderful people from all walks of life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

This thread led me to YouTube, as I know nothing about Saddleseat. My first thought was, this looks SO HARD to ride---how uncomfortable! Quite a few riders took the "wrong" diagonal at the trot; perhaps it's different in Saddleseat? And I don't know how those men...well, it's not what I expected. You must have the most exellent balance and strong legs!

The only "nice" examples were those in the Young Riders. The riders were elegant and soft, and the horses quite graceful.

The next thing I can't quite get over is the tails. Broken, I assume; Anyway, a swishing tail of anxiety would ruin the effect. I saw nothing very wrong with their feet. I believe when I was a girl the toes were shod much longer, more like the TW. I remember there used to be a class for them in the local shows; I can't remember too much except for "Let 'em rack!" and the horses would go into pinwheels of energy.

I've had experience with several Saddlebreds; every single one of them was the kindest, and sweetest of horses. And they could ALL jump. They weren't too easy to ride, feeling very wiggly under you.

I don't know why you feel "out of place" as it seems popular enough. Maybe you just need to find the "right place"?


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

This is for saddlebreds. No the tails are not broken. Some are hand stretched, some are in "humane braces" where the high tail is just a piece of wire and a cap or wig, but most of them require a simple surgical procedure. They are put in a harness of sorts that is specifically fit to each horse. At first thy are put in a bustle which is a really thick crupper to help loosen the muscles and to ensure that the horse will even tolerate wearing it. After a few weeks of wearing the bustle and hand stretching, a vet comes out and does a simple procedure where the muscles that allow the horse to clamp their tail down with force are nicked. When they heal, the horse still has full use of his tail, they just canno clamp down with force. It also makes the tail loose enough to be put in a brace do the show ring creating that balanced look. It is purely for fashion now, though back when horses were a major mode of transportation it was a safety measure so that the horse couldn't clamp down on the lines. It is similar to, though much less hurtful than cropping ears in dogs. Not necessary, and they require an absurd amount of care during healing. Every effort is made before, during, and after the surgery to make sure the horse is comfortable and pain free in order to protec the tail. A horse in discomfort will rub his tail, pull his set off, of find some othe way to try to ease the discomfort which will obliterate the tail and cause the horse greater pain. They are pampered, and carefully tended every day until they are fully healed. Once the procedure is complete, the horse does not need to wear his set 24/7. Show horses only wear their sets a week or two before a show. In the off season, they are fine. 

There are many in the industry moving away from the practice. Which is good. I love the look, but hate the care it takes. Luckily, I is legal to show a horse in any class with a natural tail, and many shows, including the world championships have added classes specifically for natural tails. Our judges are our trainers, so we have some that are prejudiced and some that will tie a good horse regardless... And we have some that just play politics and don't actually judge. We are making progress away from it. It is something the industry just has to get used to. Similar to odd colored horses in the ring. A lot of times it is difficult to place on a horse with too much flash or an odd color because he will draw the eye and his every movement and mistake is noticed. A horse with an unset tail sticks out a lot and he will have to be exceptional to place. We are working on it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

And boy is it fun to ride! The saddle is small, thin, and flat and you really do need good balance, but they are unbelievably comfortable. You get great contact with the horse. 

If anyone would like to try out a Saddlebred do free just go to EquestrianLife.com and you can find a barn near you and get a coupon for a free lesson. There are barns nationwide who participate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

sorry but you do not need stretchers to builld muscle in the shoulder. Correct schooling and time will do that same for picking up feet. stretchers are a shortcut.
chains are barbaric, even if they are not covered in caustic chemicals the chain itself will cause sensitivity simply by the movement, rubbing and bruising.

Surgicly modifying a horse for aesthetics is barbaric and has no place in the 21st century


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## SaddleSeatCowgirl (Dec 16, 2012)

faye said:


> sorry but you do not need stretchers to builld muscle in the shoulder. Correct schooling and time will do that same for picking up feet. stretchers are a shortcut.
> chains are barbaric, even if they are not covered in caustic chemicals the chain itself will cause sensitivity simply by the movement, rubbing and bruising.
> 
> Surgicly modifying a horse for aesthetics is barbaric and has no place in the 21st century


I am sorry you do not understand the discipline, Faye. Your loss.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Funny, I have asked several vets on their thought about the Stretchers (developers) and all of them agreed it didn't do any damage and used correctly was a benefit. Nothing barbaric about that. Don't hang around in any hospitals, they use the same type of thing with a lot of old folks and people who have had injuries to loosen up their muscles and for strengthening. I have used them myself and it feels good. 

I agree that they shouldn't be used all the time and the amount of time they are on should be limited. Also, building up, not all of a sudden forcing a long work out with them but that goes without saying.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

nope not my loss. any discipline that advocates shortcuts and cruel training methods is not something most people want to be involved in or associated with.

chains used to be common practice on welsh cobs for showing in the 80's. it is now banned in the Uk for welfare reasons, if a discipline cant move with the times and stop the short cuts then it has no place in the 21st century.

I dont think a stretcher is "cruel" in that if used properly it probably wont cause pain or harm, it is however a short cut and unnessecary.

How on earth do you think they got Valegro to do that extended trot of his, it certainly wasnt with a stretcher, it was with schooling, hard work and time.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

The chains themselves are very light. They do not pinch or bruise or cause lameness or harm. They do not cause increased sensitivity. The horse feels them yes, and respond by trying to step out of them, similar to how they would step out of tall grass. If left on for long periods of time, or over used, do you want to know what the result is? They no longer respond to them. They no longer try to step out of them. If it was pain which caused them to pick their feet up, then why would the chain work from a standstill to a walk? The chain never struck the hoof or bounced at that point. Just the feeling of it there makes the horse step up and out. It is no different than putting socks on a dog. 

The only time I have seen chains hurt one of my horses was when one was being a goof and stepped on himself and the chain and it did bruise. Poor dear. 

If I were to go out and put these on my sisters quarter horse, he wouldn't react at all. Sometimes, a high stepping bred breed won't respond to them. It all depends on the horse. Same with stretchers. There are ways to get out of pulling them and horses figure them out. Pulling them is work. Some horses just won't do it. 

With Saddlebreds, also, they do not have the minds to be in pain for long periods of time. They are not unwavering gentle creatures like the TWH. They will not tolerate it. They will get mean and dangerous. Some bloodlines more so than others. We are not trying to get an extended trot. We are not trying to get a piaffe. We are not trying to do what you see in dressage. What we are looking for is completely different as well as how we train. The first and most important part of getting a horse to move like that is successfully breeding for one that can already do it. We are pretty good at that part.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Inga said:


> Funny, I have asked several vets on their thought about the Stretchers (developers) and all of them agreed it didn't do any damage and used correctly was a benefit.


They don't have to cause damage to be cruel. Think about it from the horse's perspective – they don't know what the stretchers are for. All they know is that they're being asked to move while they are more or less tied up which is difficult. It is just like chains – it doesn't matter how light they are, they work precisely because the horse doesn't want them there. They lift their legs higher in an attempt to fling the chains off.

And why the heck would I want to make horses more bouncy than they already are?? Saddleseat could be the most gentle discipline in the world and I still wouldn't be interested. It does not sound like fun at all. Just because somebody doesn't like your discipline doesn't mean they're being unfair.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

LadyDreamer said:


> The chains themselves are very light. They do not pinch or bruise or cause lameness or harm. They do not cause increased sensitivity. The horse feels them yes, and respond by trying to step out of them, similar to how they would step out of tall grass. If left on for long periods of time, or over used, do you want to know what the result is? They no longer respond to them. They no longer try to step out of them. If it was pain which caused them to pick their feet up, then why would the chain work from a standstill to a walk? The chain never struck the hoof or bounced at that point. Just the feeling of it there makes the horse step up and out. It is no different than putting socks on a dog.


Sorry but it is plain physics that the weight of the chain will cause friction when it moves and the horse moves. the whole point is that is causes increased sensitivity and the horse reacts to try and avoid it. The long term results of using chains'? pressure sores and scarring! Scarring causes a thickening of the skin and a deadening of the nerves therfore because the horses can no longer feel the discomfort they no longer react.

Tell me if it is just the feeling of something being there "like tall grass" then why doesnt a feather boa work the same way. infact using your theory thay they are trying to step out of them then a feather boa should work better as they are tickley.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> It does not sound like fun at all. Just because somebody doesn't like your discipline doesn't mean they're being unfair.


 
And just because they don't like it, doesn't make the people doing it, cruel or barbaric which is what was suggested. Also, since you never tried it, you wouldn't know if it is bouncy. I have had horses I could ride while holding a glass of water and not spill a drop. Some of them are very very smooth. Others, not so much but each horse is an individual, just like any other breed.

Also, the same could be said for bits, saddles and anything else used on horses. They don't know what is happening to them then either, do they? I have never suggested people use them, I am simply saying that developers are not cruel. They are a useful tool when used correctly, just like a bit is a useful tool when used correctly. I am speaking only of developers.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Please tell me in what training method the horse performs what is being asked because he wants to? I can think of only one. It is not saddleseat, but it isn't any discipline that is commonly shown or used. In most training, you will find that the most common training is through pressure an release. Making the horse mentally or physically uncomfortable until he does what is asked. Regardless of the pressure being removed with the proper response, that is still cruel to some. That is generally accepted as proper. It is rare to find a horse that wants to wear a saddle or bridle, too. Early in training, many horses actively try to dislodge the saddle. 

One thing many people notice when they try Saddleseat is that it really isn't bouncy at all. Saddlebreds were selectively bred to be incredibly smooth and comfortable riding horses. Hence the name. Their trots are floating. You occasionally get the few rough animals, but overall they really are quite comfortable. I never feel more safe or secure than when I am riding in a cutback. Western saddles put so much leather between you and the horse it is hard for me to feel safe. I honestly have never ridden in a hunt or dressage saddle, so I cannot say anything there. 

No one asked you to try it, Ponyboy. No reason to get nasty. No one said anyone was beig unfair. It is unfair to ostracize another rider in the barn over not liking what discipline or horse they ride though. That is childish and rude. I feel for the OP. I am blessed with great friends of all disciplines and breeds who woul never think about making me feel bad for what kind of horse I have. Granted, they took the time to ask questions and learn about my horses. Most people are unwilling to do that though. Anything strange is wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

In 20 years, I have never seen pressure sores or scarring caused by chains. I grew up in a show barn. I visit some of he top training barns in the country regularly and I attend all of the major shows annually. Please tell me where you have seen this? And do not show me a picture of a TWH. 

Inga, you have about ten years of experience with the breed on me(from what you said in another post). Have you seen pressure sores and scarring from chains?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

As for the feather boa, to prove a point to someone, one of my friends tied a loose bracelet of fishing line around her horse's pasterns and he responded just the same.

The sound of the chains helps the horse with his timing and balance, as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

LadyDreamer said:


> In 20 years, I have never seen pressure sores or scarring caused by chains. I grew up in a show barn. I visit some of he top training barns in the country regularly and I attend all of the major shows annually. Please tell me where you have seen this? And do not show me a picture of a TWH.
> 
> Inga, you have about ten years of experience with the breed on me(from what you said in another post). Have you seen pressure sores and scarring from chains?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Not even once. I think that is part of the problems that Saddlebred people face. There is a lot of hype about the Tennessee Walkers and people tend to lump them together. Also, I have never seen the Saddlebreds wearing the big thick heavy logging chains that the Tennessee Walkers use. I think that is what people are picturing in their heads. 

I will be the first person to admit that there are Saddlebred trainers out their that I wouldn't give 2 cents for but... the majority of them are good to their horses.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Oh heck yeah there are some true slimeballs out there. Abusive nothing SOBs that shouldn't be within a mile of a horse in this industry. We are most definitely not free of abuse in our breed. Sadly, people on the outside are blind to it and only see the similarities to the most highly abused breed. 

I think a lot of it stems from the imagery of chains. To many, they are solely an object of pain. Kicking chains, stud chains, logging chains, chains used to tie so they won't break like rope... Every other use for chains in the horse world are used for pain. Action chains are the only ones not used to cause pain. The feel, the movement, the sound of them all play a role in how the horse reacts to them. There are ways to make them cause pain, but for a trotting horse, it is counter productive to cause pain. A trotting horse with sore feet will not pick his feet up high. A simple fact that all Saddlebred people know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

In the late 80's and early 90's there seemed to be a fad with longer feet. Still not like the TWH in the Big lick classes but... longer then a healthy hoof should ever be kept. Also, some of those "slime balls" would over pad the shoes as well. That was often the "slime balls' attempt to fake a mediocre horse to show like a high quality horse to an amateur audience. Fortunately, that seems to have for the most part died off. Most of the horses in the ring now have nice feet an appropriate shoes. Again, a horse carrying too much weight is counter productive. It won't move freely, it will labor in it's movement and not look good at all. A Saddlebred should look like it is picking it's feet up, not thumping them down from fatigue or strain.

I understand questions about this breed. I know what it is like to look at another breed and think things being done are cruel. Talking to people will hopefully help them to understand things from the "inside' rather then speculating about something unfamiliar.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Thank you LadyDreamer for the explanations! 

As for cruelty: I see it in every discipline. It seems to come with competition, unfortunately. But things will and do improve, and it's in threads like this, where a "hidden" topic is opened up, that we can all learn.


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## WesternRider88 (Oct 30, 2012)

I don't like it when people put stuff on horse's legs to make them lift their feet higher, that's my opinion. And also when you say "I refuse to ride anything but saddleseat" it doesn't come across very nice. Why not just let the horse walk naturally how it was made to walk. I will never understand why someone would want to make the horse do something it wasn't made to do.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Pssst, WesternRider, horses weren't 'made to' carry riders, either. That's something humanity did to them.

While I don't agree with chains, soring, or some of the other cruel devices, if you want to argue things that horses weren't 'made to do', carrying riders would be right at the top of that list.


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## kenda (Oct 10, 2008)

Horses were not "made" to carry people or pull carts or live in stalls or eat grains. People have bred them to be useful in all sorts of endeavours and so long as you are not practicing cruelty, whether through intention or through ignorance, its not anyones place to judge what path you want to pursue your with your horse.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Inga said:


> And just because they don't like it, doesn't make the people doing it, cruel or barbaric which is what was suggested.


That's a separate issue. I can think saddleseat is both unappealing and cruel. 




Inga said:


> Also, the same could be said for bits, saddles and anything else used on horses. They don't know what is happening to them then either, do they?



On the contrary, a bit is easy for the horse to understand: Pressure is released when the horse does a certain action. That is not true with stretchers and chains - they continue to contact the horse no matter what it does. Correct behavior does not result in the release of pressure. The horse cannot escape them. That is why so many people object to stretchers and chains.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think my biggest problem is that many of the horses are forced into an unnatural outline as its the only way to get them into that way of performing. The do build the shoes up and tend to leave the feet long to get the high knee action in breeds like the arab that arent naturally that way and I think this prevents pasture turnout during the show season
I also wonder how many can do anything but 'ride the rail'
It seems like a very boring life for the horse


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

As I have stated probably a dozen times now, I also am not a fan of chains. I do not however think the light weight action chains that are used in most Saddlebred barns are cruel. I do not think that developers are cruel in any way shape or form either. 

I think it is a funny argument that anyone would say "I will never understand why someone would want to make the horse do something it wasn't made to do". on a horse forum. Horses were not made to do any of the things man makes them do now. They have however been bred for hundreds of years to do what we now do with them. 

Also, a horse wouldn't understand a bit being jerked about in their mouths anymore then the use of developers. It will however get used to it, and accept it if it is treated humanely while using the tool, the same as with developers. 

Saddlebred people do not sore their horses and It amazes me how some people cannot seem to separate the two. 

I could care less if someone likes Saddleseat or not. I don't see how someone who says "I refuse to ride anything but saddleseat" is offensive to anyone else. Who cares what kind of riding someone else enjoys doing. Would it be offensive if someone said "i only like to trail ride?" I don't get that anyone would take offense to that statement. 

We could sit and pick apart any number of disciplines and people could pipe in about what they don't like about that type of riding. I tried to start a thread like that once but it was quickly derailed and made to something very different. Truth be told there are no disciplines that someone out there won't find distasteful. There are many things I do not like about many different types of riding. I know however, that I love every animal that I have ever owned and treat them with compassion and respect. I would do nothing to them if I believed for a second that it was harmful or cruel.

I am fine with others not liking a discipline I enjoyed for many years. I am also very open with trying to talk about it or answer any questions people might have. It is a diverse world we live in. The reason there are so many different breeds is because people had different needs and wants and they bred the horses to fit those needs and wants.

In response to Jaydee's post and videos. I have also commented in other threads about how I find the "newer Arabians' a little sad. I think they are being made to look like Saddlebreds, which they are not. Forcing an unnatural frame? Well, Saddlebreds have been bred to carry their head high so, it isn't unnatural to them. It is no different riding a horse of any breed collected, just that they are higher headed then some other breeds. I hate long feet and giant shoes on any horse. I hate that horses are pushed too hard in any disciipline and higher, faster, bigger jump, lower head, higher head fashions make some people do things they should not do. IMO I just don't paint a whole discipline with a wide bush. There are good people and bad people in all disciplines.

Sorry long post but also had to add. I don't like the second video for a few reasons. One, Why in the world are the long lines flopping up and down so much? Too much concern on doing a video and not enough focus on the horse and what they are doing, it seems.


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## WesternRider88 (Oct 30, 2012)

Horses were made to carry people, they were specifically designed to help humans do their jobs. And I wasn't judging anyone with how they train their horses or how they are riding them, that is their choice. I was just stating my opinions.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Nope, horses aren't designed to carry people, we just took advantage of their good nature. A horse is designed so that most of its weight hangs, and nothing applies pressure on its spine from above. If they had ben designed to carry weight above their backbones, they wouldn't look much like the animals we know.

Do you think their mouths were designed to hold bits? Hardly. Humanity saw how they have a natural gap, and made something to fit.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

westernrider88 said:


> horses were made to carry people, they were specifically designed to help humans do their jobs. And i wasn't judging anyone with how they train their horses or how they are riding them, that is their choice. I was just stating my opinions.


wth??????


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Actually cows are built much better to carry humans than horses. Why don't we go ride them and try to make them into pretty high steppers?


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

I certainly think it's important to have friendly, informative conversations about breeds, riding disciplines, genetics, etc. One thing that is important to remember in these discussions is the it's easy to find the exact examples you want to use to serve any purpose. 

My point in saying that is that while the videos previously posted (one of which isn't a saddlebred) may prove one point - though I'm not entirely sure why either was used when the bigger issue seems to be development tools, there are plenty of examples that show that saddlebreds (and, yes, Arabians) can easily have that motion au natural.

No horse can be forced into that kind of action if they can't do it naturally. Hence, you never QHs or TBs in the english pleasure/saddleseat classes at open shows and they don't exist in their own breed shows. I just chose those two breeds at random, but one gets the idea. As with other riding disciplines, natural motion or talents are enhanced to show a horse's best features. Some horses excel at reining, some are amazing cow horses, some can jump higher than they are tall, some have more animated motion than most other horses. 

Also, it's important to know that not all Saddlebreds are "high steppers" - nor are all Arabians or Morgans. There are variations in every breed. Blanket statements don't do any discussion any good because they are all too easy to disprove. They cause the person making the statement to look ignorant, close-minded, rude, and can cause offense to a lot of people. 

If you are going to looking through youtube, take a look at any Saddlebred or Arabian liberty class. Remember, that means no saddle, no training devices, just the horse moving in its most natural state. You can't force that and you can't "train" that with any devices. 

A good example of a Saddlebred:






A good example of an Arabian:





Even the babies have a good amount of action:





You can't force animated motion, only enhance it. I know - as does everyone else - that there are people out there in any breed, any discipline, who abuse and exploit horses to their own end with no care about the well being of the animals. There are fads in all disciplines that come and go - some are purely aesthetic and some - well, some are not. It's all very sad when that happens and I'm glad when those people are banned and stopped from their practices. Just because you aren't familiar with something doesn't mean that it's terrible or cruel. 

There can be something found in any discipline that someone won't agree with or will refuse to understand and everyone is allowed their opinions. Ideally, I'd like to see people make opinions based upon facts and knowledge rather than assumptions and blind ignorance. I love saddle seat and I have a blast doing it. I enjoy taking my friend's country pleasure Arabian out on the trails with her english pleasure (formerly-park) NSH. (And no, she doesn't ever use any devices other than a martingale on occasion and rarely even that on either of her two) 

I tried to keep this from rambling, but it happens sometimes. If it did, my apologies.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

First off, no. Horses we not 'made' to carry people. As has been stated, we simply saw an advantage and we took it. We saw how they were shaped and said hey, we could maybe sit on that. We saw the big gap in their teeth (Which is there because they are herbivores and that is just how their teeth are) and no, it's not there specifically to hold a bit - we saw how it could be used and developed a tool to utilize it. They weren't made to fit a saddle, the saddle was made to fit them.

Secondly... I am certainly learning new things! I am a novice when it comes to saddlebreds, and I find this thread very informative. I will be honest... I lumped the saddlebreds with the Big Lick horses before reading this thread (oops). 

While I find this looks absolutely ridiculous myself (And I apologize if others disagree - Just my own opinion):






I really like how this looks. I don't like how the head is flexed SO far in towards the chest, but it looks so elegant:







Is there a way to get the result without using chains / pads / bands? I am intrigued now. I'd like to look more into the breed and whatnot, I'm not going to jump in to the chains/no chains debate - I myself would not use them, and thus am curious as to what other methods of training are used to get them to walk like that. 

As to the original question: While I would not use your particular choice of 'tools and aides', if you do and are uncomfortable with people staring you have a few choices: 

1.) Stop using them. Try employing different training techniques.

2.) Ignore them. Yes, it hurts when the others ostracize you. But if they're going to do that you probably don't want to talk to them anyways, they sound like jerks.

3.) Don't practice when there's a ton of people there. Find a time when it's relatively empty and head down to the barn.

4.) Politely ask them what their problem is, and see if you can explain your practices to them.

Hope everything works out for you.


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## Skunkworks (Oct 22, 2012)

Sooooooo does this mean dressage and western are abhorrently evil and inhumane because they have things like rollkur, cathedral bits, draw reins, running martingales and the like? And think of the cart horses! All those poor horses having all those leather straps and collars on them and rubbing them, not to mention how those poor things are broke to be cart proof, pulling random stuff about!

Ok, done being a smartdonkey... Saddleseat is in the same pasture as western pleasure, a specialized class that requires specific training. I could claim western pleasure looks evil thanks to the nasty curb bits, insane spurs, and evil things that people must have done to win because I saw it on a youtube video. However, I know it's not anything like that. Saddleseat has different goals and uses different ways to get there but none of them are evil or abusive by themselves. It's the rotten apples that make the tools evil and abusive.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Just wanted to address another thing that is often questioned about Saddlebred horses. In the video you see a woman running behind the horse with a whip with a bag attached. Now, the reason she is doing this isn't to freak the horse out, or to hit the horse. They do this simply to push the horse up into the bridle in hand. Now, not all bulbs burn as bright as others and I have seen some seriously bad "shags" (the people running behind) out there. Some of them do not pay attention to the horse. If the horse is nervous or getting ahead of the "header" (person leading) then they are to back off. If the horse is moving off in a direction they don't want, the shag could direct from behind. This person's job, when showing in hand will also work to get the horse "looking through the bridle" when parked out (set up) When you see a good show combination of header and shag, the horse trots in beautifully, isn't all crazy. The lady is the video above does a very nice job. The horse is a stud and can be a bit full of himself but considering they are trotting in front of a bunch of people hooting, and clapping, they control the horses energy quite well. Also, that horse is moving in hand without chains or anything. The things on front are simply bell boots.

This next video is a country pleasure horse that is for sale. Just a keg shoe on, no action devices. Pretty decent movement. 





 

Then just for fun.... Pride, the Saddlehorse


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Y'all Saddlebred riders still getting beat up in this thread? What a shame.

I love riding Saddlebreds. 3 or 5 gaited. Love the action. The ones I've ridden all had good brains and personalities, too. Couldn't stop smiling when I was riding them.

As a therapist (primarily for humans, but also contract to a vet for horses), I have no problem with stretchers, light chains, surcingles, etc. Whether in rehab or in personal training, people use things that would be comparable to target specific muscle groups to achieve desired movement. 

I had the pleasure of riding Saddlebreds for a barn about six years ago where the owners let me, asked me to, take them out in addition to my lesson time. They all made great trail mounts and the change was good for them as it would be for any horse.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

boots, I am happy that you had a good experience with them. I had one of my vets ride one of my young horses a few years back in sort of an impromtu lesson of sorts. She was smiling from ear to ear and said "I never thought I would be able to stay on one of theses horses" She was pleasantly surprised to find out how gentle and easy going that horse was and how forgiving. She wasn't a great rider and a couple times lost balance but the horse would just slow down or stop until she got positioned again. 

A couple more videos of the American Saddlebred horse. These both just show the diversity of these horses.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Inga said:


> Also, a horse wouldn't understand a bit being jerked about in their mouths anymore then the use of developers.


Are you arguing that there is no difference between how a bit works and how developers work? There is, which I just explained. If you don't understand I'll try to explain again. 



> I could care less if someone likes Saddleseat or not.


I thought you started this thread because you felt out of place? How could you feel that way if you don't care what anyone thinks?



> Truth be told there are no disciplines that someone out there won't find distasteful.


But there are also reasons why some disciplines attract more controversy than others.



> I know however, that I love every animal that I have ever owned and treat them with compassion and respect. I would do nothing to them if I believed for a second that it was harmful or cruel.


Intentions aren't everything.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

> Boots, I am happy that you had a good experience with them. I had one of my vets ride one of my young horses a few years back in sort of an impromtu lesson of sorts. She was smiling from ear to ear and said "I never thought I would be able to stay on one of theses horses" She was pleasantly surprised to find out how gentle and easy going that horse was and how forgiving.


They were all of that.

As I got to know the owners and they got to know me, they had me take different ones out into the woods. 

I was impressed by how well they handled varying terrain and surprises.

If I thought they make good cow horses or were built for polo, I'd be happy to have some now.


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## AgileOllie (Mar 28, 2012)

That brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for that story.



Saddlebag said:


> Years ago I'd ride any horse and use whatever saddle the owner had. A few old pelters I regretted using but overall it didn't matter english or western. And we had enough manners to never condemn someone else's choice. Ahh, show snobs. At a large jumping competition a farmer showed up in his coveralls leading a stout horse with lots of draft in it. It was immaculately groomed and it's dark bay coat gleamed dapples in the sun. He saddled the horse with an older english saddle and slipped the snaffle bit in. You could almost feel the affection between those two. A young skinny lad of about 14 was boosted into the saddle. You could hear the sniggers from other riders as the lad didn't have a "proper" jacket but rather his Sunday jacket in a brown tweed. The other riders did the jump course and the kid went last and put the whole works to shame. Like the farmer, he and that horse were partners and flew over the jumps. Comments like Beginner's luck abounded but the trio cleaned up all summer, they were unbeatable.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> Are you arguing that there is no difference between how a bit works and how developers work? There is, which I just explained. If you don't understand I'll try to explain again.
> 
> I thought you started this thread because you felt out of place? How could you feel that way if you don't care what anyone thinks?
> 
> ...


 
You are not as brite as you think you are. I DID NOT START THIS THREAD. I was just here chatting about the subject like you are. Do you honestly think that your opinion on bits and developers will somehow become fact if you say it enough? Lot of ego there.

As far as some disciplines getting more controversy... Saddleseat (Saddlebreds anyhow) don't get anymore then dressage, Rollkur. Wester/peanut rolling, Rodeo/killing or seriously injuring animals. I think you are still confusing Big Lick and Saddleseat. Big Lick horses are under the gun on a regular basis because of abuse but not all Saddleseat riders do Big Lick. In fact, a very small percentage. 

I have not now, nor have I ever defended any abuse on animals. In fact, I have dedicated most of my life to rescue and I find your snotty comment "intentions aren't everything" laughable and sad at the same time. How old are you, 16?


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## AgileOllie (Mar 28, 2012)

faye said:


> the whole point is that is causes increased sensitivity and the horse reacts to try and avoid it.


I am not trying to be a smart-ace, and I am truly learning here. I have no idea about saddle-seat riding. I'm more of a western girl, myself, but it sort of sounds like these bands provide the same sort of sensitivity that many bits are used for. I mean, the whole purpose of a bit is to get the horse to do what YOU want him to do instead of what HE wants to do. Right? So how are these bands any different? Either way, whether it's pleasure riding or dressage, the horse would probably much rather not have someone on his back with a metal bit in his mouth. How far off am I?


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

AgileOllie said:


> I am not trying to be a smart-ace, and I am truly learning here. I have no idea about saddle-seat riding. I'm more of a western girl, myself, but it sort of sounds like these bands provide the same sort of sensitivity that many bits are used for. I mean, the whole purpose of a bit is to get the horse to do what YOU want him to do instead of what HE wants to do. Right? So how are these bands any different? Either way, whether it's pleasure riding or dressage, the horse would probably much rather not have someone on his back with a metal bit in his mouth. How far off am I?


I am just learning, too. What I'm getting from this, what seems to be what is bothering some people, is that they act in the same way, but with a bit, the horse does what you ask and pressure is released as a reward. But with the chains, which are there to make them step higher, there is no release, and their is no reward. So, they step up because it's uncomfortable and they're trying to escape it, and even though that's what they're supposed to do there just isn't that release or reward. No matter what they do the chains are still causing the discomfort that makes them want to step so high and it just is confusing and upsetting to them. The bit works on pressure release, and the chains are there no matter what the horse does. So while the horse doesn't particularly want either of them, the bits are acceptable because the horse can understand after a short while the bit cues and learn from the pressure and release system, but can't do so with the chains.

Am I wrong? (I honestly don't know. Throwing out an educated guess here based on what I've read in this thread - if I need correcting please feel free to correct me!)


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## AgileOllie (Mar 28, 2012)

i get that the release of the pressure of the bit is the reward, but simply having a large metal shank in one's mouth can not be very pleasurable and is certainly not natural. And that by itself is constant pressure, even when there is no added pressure being put on the mouth by the reins. Does that make sense?




Shoebox said:


> I am just learning, too. What I'm getting from this, what seems to be what is bothering some people, is that they act in the same way, but with a bit, the horse does what you ask and pressure is released as a reward. But with the chains, which are there to make them step higher, there is no release, and their is no reward. So, they step up because it's uncomfortable and they're trying to escape it, and even though that's what they're supposed to do there just isn't that release or reward. No matter what they do the chains are still causing the discomfort that makes them want to step so high and it just is confusing and upsetting to them. The bit works on pressure release, and the chains are there no matter what the horse does. So while the horse doesn't particularly want either of them, the bits are acceptable because the horse can understand after a short while the bit cues and learn from the pressure and release system, but can't do so with the chains.
> 
> Am I wrong? (I honestly don't know. Throwing out an educated guess here based on what I've read in this thread - if I need correcting please feel free to correct me!)


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

Shoebox said:


> I am just learning, too. What I'm getting from this, what seems to be what is bothering some people, is that they act in the same way, but with a bit, the horse does what you ask and pressure is released as a reward. But with the chains, which are there to make them step higher, there is no release, and their is no reward. So, they step up because it's uncomfortable and they're trying to escape it, and even though that's what they're supposed to do there just isn't that release or reward. No matter what they do the chains are still causing the discomfort that makes them want to step so high and it just is confusing and upsetting to them. The bit works on pressure release, and the chains are there no matter what the horse does. So while the horse doesn't particularly want either of them, the bits are acceptable because the horse can understand after a short while the bit cues and learn from the pressure and release system, but can't do so with the chains.
> 
> Am I wrong? (I honestly don't know. Throwing out an educated guess here based on what I've read in this thread - if I need correcting please feel free to correct me!)


With the chains, I can again, only speak from the Saddlebred (breed) side of things, not the entire Sadleseat side of things. Again, I still thin people confuse the chains thing iwth Big Lick horses (Tennessee walkers small % that participate in that class) to Saddleseat which encompasses many different breeds and several different classes. To be clear yet again, I am NOT a fan of chains. That said, in the 35 years of dealing with Saddlebred horses, I have not seen sores or anything from those using chains. As far as the straps for the developers, they are often fleece lined so as to NOT cause any discomfort at all. As has been mentioned, Saddlebreds are not a breed that would work in pain like the Tennessee walkers. They are loving and wonderful horses but are also hot and can be high strung and very sensitive. The chains I have seen on the Big Lick horses are huge and heavy and are there for the sole pupose of causing pain/disconfort and I believe they are worn all the time, including the ring for shows. Saddlebreds (those who use them) use very light weight chains or just a light weight leather band and they used the from time to time, and NOT in the shows. It is a tool that some people chose to use to teach the horse timing, and to lift. Yes, there is a release as they don't wear them often or long.

Any tool, is supposed to be there for teaching purposes only. Example: Side reins (I hate those too) only used to teach the horse where the human wants their head to be then they shouldn't be used anymore. 
Humans use tools, the toolbox is big and the tools are diverse from breed to breed. I have also said before but it bares repeating. That there are those within the breed that shouldn't be allowed to ride ponies at the fair much less be involved in training a horse of their own but again, show me a discipline were those types do not exist. The majority of Saddleseat riders are horse lovers that wouldn't dream of hurting their beloved mounts. 

The time my horses have picked their feet up the highest was upon wearing shipping boots. The feeling certainly didn't hurt them, it just feels funny. That is the feeling they are trying to mimic with the light weight chain or leather strap, I believe.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

Inga said:


> You are not as brite as you think you are. I DID NOT START THIS THREAD.


I apologize for that. 



Inga said:


> As far as some disciplines getting more controversy... Saddleseat (Saddlebreds anyhow) don't get anymore then dressage, Rollkur. Wester/peanut rolling, Rodeo/killing or seriously injuring animals. I think you are still confusing Big Lick and Saddleseat. Big Lick horses are under the gun on a regular basis because of abuse but not all Saddleseat riders do Big Lick. In fact, a very small percentage.


I'm not a fan of Western pleasure, rodeo or competitive dressage either. 

I understand that many people get confused between saddlesat and Big Lick but I've done a lot of research on the subject because I like gaited horses and many people think that's all Big Lick too. To put it simply Big Lick can involve soring and saddleseat does not. I think it's also more possible to win in saddleseat without resorting to using questionable equipment, whereas in Big Lick everyone pretty much goes the whole 9 yards. 



> I have not now, nor have I ever defended any abuse on animals. In fact, I have dedicated most of my life to rescue and I find your snotty comment "intentions aren't everything" laughable and sad at the same time. How old are you, 16?


That's okay. I'm actually quite happy with the way this thread is going because of the comments I made. People are thinking... 

As for my "intentions aren't everything" comment – Just remember that everybody says they love their horses. Even the people who do things like Rolkur and rodeo. They're probably telling the truth too - but feeling affection for an animal doesn't necessarily correlate with treating it properly. Just look at animal hoarders.

I'm flattered you think I'm 16. If only that were true!


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Where every "Saddlebreds are Sored!" Argument goes, the simple fact remains that you cannot sore a trotting horse. If a trotting horse is sore in any fashion, they will not pick their feet up. Will not and cannot. The force of impact at the trot is much greater than at a four beat gait and the horse will do anything but lift their feet high. Even our five gaited horses still have to trot. When a saddlebred is sore in any foot, even in the slightest bit, you can spot it a mile away. There will be unevenness. There will be a head bob. There will be a look of general misery. No bright eyes and excitement. No ears up and "go forward" attitude. Lameness and soreness is very clear and very noticeable. Three legged horses are never tied in shows. Lame horses are never tied. In fact, they are excused from the ring if an idiot owner still tries to show one lame. I'm sure people have tried. 

Not to mention that Saddlebreds are not TWHs. They do not have that unfaltering gentle nature. If a saddlebred is in constant pain he can become quite dangerous. Eat you alive kind of dangerous. They will always tell you when something is wrong. They are not the forgiving animals that TWHs are. They are great animals and very people oriented, they just don't have a great deal of tolerance when it come to pain or BS. 

I couldn't imagine what an Arab would do in a soring situation. Yikes.

Also, saddlebreds are not "gaited" horses, like the TWH. They are a trotting horse with the natural ability to learn the rack and the slow gait. TWHs are "naturally gaited" meaning they were born doing it. Ours have to be taught. 

Saddlebreds too, are governed by the USEF, whereas the TWHS are not. I am pretty sure this issue was part of the reason the TWH people split away from the USEF. There is an entire set of rules just for us and we all pretty much abide by them. If we don't, we face pretty hefty fines and the possibility of being banned from rated shows. There are show stewards and USEF reps at every rated show. If there is a complaint, or if something illegal pops up, they are quick to respond. You will often see them hanging around the warm up areas to see if you are using illegal equipment. 

I think the only rule blatantly ignored by Saddlebred people is the peppermint rule. Everyone knows that saddlebreds live for peppermints. It is amazing how much immediate posing you get when you crinkle that wrapper. Bunch of beggars. 

Chains by themselves do no harm. They do not bruise or hurt. They do not cause lameness. They do not cause discomfort. When used by themselves. 

If Saddlebreds and other saddleseat breeds were guilty of soring, why do we not have to go through the checkers and have a soundness evaluation before and after our shows? We are just as prevalent as the TWHs, and likely more so. Could it be that we have enough evidence to support the simple fact that our horses are not sored?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

LadyDreamer said:


> This is for saddlebreds. No the tails are not broken. Some are hand stretched, some are in "humane braces" where the high tail is just a piece of wire and a cap or wig, but most of them require a simple surgical procedure. They are put in a harness of sorts that is specifically fit to each horse. At first thy are put in a bustle which is a really thick crupper to help loosen the muscles and to ensure that the horse will even tolerate wearing it. After a few weeks of wearing the bustle and hand stretching, a vet comes out and does a simple procedure where the muscles that allow the horse to clamp their tail down with force are nicked. When they heal, the horse still has full use of his tail, they just canno clamp down with force. It also makes the tail loose enough to be put in a brace do the show ring creating that balanced look. It is purely for fashion now, though back when horses were a major mode of transportation it was a safety measure so that the horse couldn't clamp down on the lines. It is similar to, though much less hurtful than cropping ears in dogs. Not necessary, and they require an absurd amount of care during healing. Every effort is made before, during, and after the surgery to make sure the horse is comfortable and pain free in order to protec the tail. A horse in discomfort will rub his tail, pull his set off, of find some othe way to try to ease the discomfort which will obliterate the tail and cause the horse greater pain. They are pampered, and carefully tended every day until they are fully healed. Once the procedure is complete, the horse does not need to wear his set 24/7. Show horses only wear their sets a week or two before a show. In the off season, they are fine.
> 
> There are many in the industry moving away from the practice. Which is good. I love the look, but hate the care it takes. Luckily, I is legal to show a horse in any class with a natural tail, and many shows, including the world championships have added classes specifically for natural tails. Our judges are our trainers, so we have some that are prejudiced and some that will tie a good horse regardless... And we have some that just play politics and don't actually judge. We are making progress away from it. It is something the industry just has to get used to. Similar to odd colored horses in the ring. A lot of times it is difficult to place on a horse with too much flash or an odd color because he will draw the eye and his every movement and mistake is noticed. A horse with an unset tail sticks out a lot and he will have to be exceptional to place. We are working on it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


In Wisconsin no vets will cut the tails. Vets automatically do not use the tails to help a Saddlebred to it's feet after sedation/surgery as they assume it has been cut. Trainers usually do it or someone who claims to know what they are doing does it. It doesn't always turn out well.
Tail sets look like a full harness. At shows there is often a sheet over them so they aren't readily visible. 
Very often there are sores or scars from an ill fitting tail set.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

LadyDreamer said:


> And boy is it fun to ride! The saddle is small, thin, and flat and you really do need good balance, but they are unbelievably comfortable. You get great contact with the horse.
> 
> If anyone would like to try out a Saddlebred do free just go to EquestrianLife.com and you can find a barn near you and get a coupon for a free lesson. There are barns nationwide who participate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've ridden in those saddles, to me they feel like straddling a canoe paddle. I have a Saddlebred & have never used the saddle he came with. I have a friend who trail rides in a Fox Lane, she loves it.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

natisha said:


> In Wisconsin no vets will cut the tails. Vets automatically do not use the tails to help a Saddlebred to it's feet after sedation/surgery as they assume it has been cut. Trainers usually do it or someone who claims to know what they are doing does it. It doesn't always turn out well.
> Tail sets look like a full harness. At shows there is often a sheet over them so they aren't readily visible.
> Very often there are sores or scars from an ill fitting tail set.


 
That is not true. There ARE vets in Wisconsin that will cut tails. At least there were a few years ago. This is a practice I wish would go out of fashion. I agree that often times, the idiots who cut the tails do not take proper care of them and they look pretty bad. Even with really good care, often the tail looks pretty fuzzy on top. I have never seen people put a sheet over the top of the tailset, usually there is a blanket under the set to keep the set from rubbing. With good trainers, great care is taken to make sure the horse is comfortable while wearing the set so they do not rub or anything else.





 
Even if I didn't think it were cruel or unneccessary, I wouldn't do it because I hate that the horse would have to be in a tailset. I wouldn't want to wear anything like that so I wouldn't want my horses or any of my animals to need to wear it unless they had to. Also, I would be too lazy to monkey with that every day. 

I have seen a few really good examples of bad people and their use of tailsets to never wish to do that to a horse myself.



> I've ridden in those saddles, to me they feel like straddling a canoe paddle. I have a Saddlebred & have never used the saddle he came with. I have a friend who trail rides in a Fox Lane, she loves it.


Really? I used to do everything from showring to trail to even run around barrels in my flat saddle. I thought it was perfect. I guess it is all what you are used to.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

I adore Clem. He is one of the nicest guys around and one of the best. Talking to him always brightens up a horse show for me. 

As I said before too, there are steps being taken to make it easier for people to place in shows with an unset tail. Our trainers(aka. Our judges) are getting used to them, there are rules in place making it legal to show with a natural tail, and shows are adding classss for natural tails.

The after care is the most important part. If you are not dedicated then you can really screw a horse up. Those first few days are critical when it comes to around the clock monitoring. 

That is odd to me about the saddle too. Granted, western saddles make me feel so very uncomfortable and not secure, I am sure that sounds odd to a western rider. So no qualms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hberrie (Apr 28, 2012)

EwWW I don't like it!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There seems to be a lot of focus on saddlebreds on the thread but I'm not sure if the OP actually has mentioned what breed she rides in saddleseat - certainly not in the first post
My only experience of saddleseat is with arabians and part arabians and other than I dont like to see the high knee action in arabians I never saw any cruelty, the horses were all well loved and cared for - and it is a top show yard. I rode on saddleseat horse in normal english and he moved fine - he was unshod for the winter so his higher knee action in saddleseat was down to the shoeing but its nothing compared to the way they shoe the Big Lick horses and not fair to judge all saddleseat against those


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## cb06 (Dec 30, 2012)

As a horse lover who has been around the saddlebred show world for 2 decades, I find it disheartening to see so much misinformation still floating around regarding saddlebreds and the use of action devices, tail sets, etc. However, I am also glad to see the well-informed posts by inga, lady dreamer, boots, etc.. that will hopefully help educated others who may not have first hand experience and are forming opinions based on inaccurate information.

There are many aspects of the horse world that I may not like, and there are certainly some in the Saddlebred world I would change. HOWEVER, in my FIRST HAND experience at many saddlebred shows (big and small) and saddlebred barns (including BNTs), I have never seen cruel or abusive practices. Never.

Saddlebreds are not sored. Period. Ever. We want a bright, big, square trotting horse... and in every class, they must TROT...and this can only be accomplished on a happy, sound horse.
Action chains used for saddlebreds are light and loose and applied for short periods of time. They work by tactile stimulation that can help a horse with timing and elevation (the comparison to shipping boots is a good one). I have applied them and taken them off of many, many horses over many years and can uniquivocally say, they do not hurt, rub or in any way cause pain to the horse..at all. 
To read some actual science on how this works, google "*Short*-*term habituation of equine limb kinematics to tactile stimulation of the coronet*. by Clayton HM" where it is discussed how they can be used theraputically.

Tail cutting/setting. I have seen the procedure done in person and applied tail sets. The actual procedure is very minor and done properly, does not impede the long term use of the tail. However, it does require proper aftercare and continuing care (fly control, daily adjusting set) and the horse cannot normally be turned out wearing a tailset....and for these secondary reasons I wish this practice would fade away. Luckily, most show horses are only in tail sets periodically during the show season and are 'let down' in the off season. A stable sheet is often put UNDER the tail set to PREVENT rubbing. Please, go to a show, those horses are IMMACULATELY turned out...you would never, ever want to see rubs or sores. 

The saddles. I have ridden in them everywhere also (show, trail, trail class  and never noticed...you just get used to it. ...and I must say, if you learn to ride in a saddleseat saddle, you can ride in almost anything. ha! ...and yes, LOTS of breeds are ridden in saddleseat saddles including, arabs, morgans and fresians.

Anyway, I hope some of the misinformation expressed in this thread has been addressed and that we can all go out and enjoy our horses, regardless of the saddle we use.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

cb06 said:


> As a horse lover who has been around the saddlebred show world for 2 decades, I find it disheartening to see so much misinformation still floating around regarding saddlebreds and the use of action devices, tail sets, etc. However, I am also glad to see the well-informed posts by inga, lady dreamer, boots, etc.. that will hopefully help educated others who may not have first hand experience and are forming opinions based on inaccurate information.


Myself and others have already said we know that saddlebreds are not sored. I also never said that the chains and developers used in saddleseat cause any kind of physical damage. What I said was that I believe they are cruel for other reasons. You might not agree with that opinion, but it is not based on "inaccurate" information. A person can be well-informed and still not agree with what you think.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

ponyboy said:


> I believe they are cruel for other reasons. You might not agree with that opinion, but it is not based on "inaccurate" information. A person can be well-informed and still not agree with what you think.


 
You have not stated what well-informed information you had to prove they were cruel either. Do you think that Saddleseat riders that use these are turning out a bunch of horses that will have mental problems due to the equipment choices they have made? Are only saddleseat horses at danger of this fate? Any other equipment that should be avoided to not damge the horses mentally, that you are aware of? 

Do you think Side pulls, over checks, curb bits, crib straps, harnesses, shipping boots, tie downs are alright? What about tying in general? How does one explain that to a horse?


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

I was referring to this:



ponyboy said:


> On the contrary, a bit is easy for the horse to understand: Pressure is released when the horse does a certain action. That is not true with stretchers and chains - they continue to contact the horse no matter what it does. Correct behavior does not result in the release of pressure. The horse cannot escape them. That is why so many people object to stretchers and chains.





> Do you think Side pulls, over checks, curb bits, crib straps, harnesses, shipping boots, tie downs are alright? What about tying in general? How does one explain that to a horse?


Both over checks or tie downs are fine if they are loose enough to only prevent drastic movements, but they usually aren't. I'm not a fan. 

A curb bit is still a bit (see above) and side pulls work on the same principle as bits.

Crib straps are for the horse's own good. 

As for tying, the horse does not feel any pressure if they submit to the rope. Pulling against rope = wrong thing, horse feels pressure. No pulling against rope = right thing, horse feels no pressure. The horse has the ability to avoid the pressure, therefore it is not cruel. 

All of the other equipment you list is stationary, i.e. it either applies constant pressure or no pressure at all. Either one a horse can get used to, just like we're used to wearing clothing. It is not like having something repeatedly banging against you or pulling on you every time you move.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I think you should probably actually witness the proper use of the developers as you will see no stress by the horse. It isn't like it is working really hard to pull against them, they are used for very short amounts of time and are adjusted to have only slight resistance. 

The truth is that ANY equipment used on a horse takes them time to get used to, just like it would for any human. If you have a bond with your horse, and ask them to do something gently, they are willing to do so. I find it amusing that people will pick and chose which pieces of equipment are considered "cruel" vs. others they chose to use that are just fine. If I were to chose which I thought would be more confusing to a horse based on my 35+ years of working with them, I would say a bit in their mouths, far more then developers. It takes about a minute for horses to figure out what to do with developers but far longer to figure out what to do with a bit. Also, it certainly depends on who's hands are on the reins, I have seen some horrors out there in that area as well.

Either way, you will likely never adapt the "developers do not hurt horses" theory so... enjoy your horses how you will and others will do the same. Peace.


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## graceunderpressure (Aug 2, 2012)

Thanks for this thread--I have always wanted to really understand saddleseat practices. I'm still not feeling very clear on the subject, but I've learned important vocabulary, history and viewpoints. Every discipline has its "iffy" sides and some things make me uncomfortable from really every side, even disciplines I'm involved in. Always good to check on your own practices and really examine them to be sure you're in the right. 

There is something to be said for watching MANY breeds, though especially the typical saddleseat ones, at play in the field. They get very flashy, so certainly for some there is a natural inclination towards what saddleseat emphasizes. Further than that, I still have a lot to learn before I form an opinion.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

graceunderpressure said:


> Thanks for this thread--I have always wanted to really understand saddleseat practices. I'm still not feeling very clear on the subject, but I've learned important vocabulary, history and viewpoints. Every discipline has its "iffy" sides and some things make me uncomfortable from really every side, even disciplines I'm involved in. Always good to check on your own practices and really examine them to be sure you're in the right.
> 
> There is something to be said for watching MANY breeds, though especially the typical saddleseat ones, at play in the field. They get very flashy, so certainly for some there is a natural inclination towards what saddleseat emphasizes. Further than that, I still have a lot to learn before I form an opinion.


If you get a chance, spend a day or two observing at a Saddlebred barn. My first exposure was through helping at a neighbor's facility after he had broken an arm. I was managing a TB farm.

The gear and training aids were all so foreign, and the horses were great to work with. Very enjoyable and interesting.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

And don't just observe. Ask questions. 

It got buried a few pages back, but there is a GREAT program right now with EquestrainLife.com . Saddlebred barns(and Hackney barns) across the country are offering Free riding and driving lessons to try Saddleseat and to meet Saddlebreds, and talk to owners and trainers and just try it! You just go to the website, find a barn in your area and schedule a time. I will share some o their videos when I get a chance. 

Also, it might just be my location being in a highly concentrated area, but you can also find discounted lessons from time to time on deal sites such as LivingSocial and Groupon. 

Inga, myself, and several others on here as well are always happy to answer questions and educate, if you are interested in learning more also. Don't be shy!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kellylee (Oct 29, 2012)

I am for sure doomed to never ride saddleseat again. Lady Dreamer - I just went to the equestrianlife.com website to check out the lesson program, and there is not a single barn in Maryland and only two out in southern Virginia :-(. I am, however, going to make it to Northwind Stables in NJ one weekend this spring and take advantage of a free lesson for sure! They have a wonderful rescue - AMERICAN HORSE ADOPTION operated by Saddlebred Rescue Inc. a 501C3 horse rescue - and I spend far too much time on their website dreaming of getting one of their horses. Now that is an organization that exemplifies the good in the Saddlebred world and shows just how much heart Saddlebreds have.

As a teenager, I learned to ride saddleseat at a Saddlebred farm in Alabama. They did a ton of showing and not only did they treat their horses extremely well, they took good care of all the barn rats that hung out there day in and day out. When my family moved to Georgia, I got a Morgan and even though I LOVED my horse, I always secretly wanted a Saddlebred. I returned to riding recently after all of these years, and I didn't even bother trying to find a farm that taught saddleseat because I am pretty sure they don't exist within a 2 hours of DC. I know that when I do take the plunge at get my own horse, it is going to be either a Saddlebred or a Morgan, and I will happily ignore anyone at the barn that looks down on me for not riding a breed more "suitable" for dressage


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

I have always been fascinated by the Saddlebreds.They are such a beautiful,versatile,and unique breed with a rich history. I rode Saddlebreds alot when I was a little girl,fell in love,and have wanted one ever since;a dream,that if all goes well,will be fulfilled very soon!  Every breed out there has good ones and bad ones,of course,but 99.9 % of all my experiences with Saddlebreds have been nothing but wonderful. They're a joy to ride (powerful and energetic,yet oh so smooth!),fun to watch as they naturally like to show off and strut their stuff,and easy to work with. Smart as a whip,and very loyal to their person(s). Can't wait til I have one of my own! 
I've appreciated all the information and knowledge that has been posted on this thread in regards to ASBs and saddleseat;learned a few new things..


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

kellylee said:


> When my family moved to Georgia, I got a Morgan and even though I LOVED my horse, I always secretly wanted a Saddlebred.


You all are making me miss riding my old Saddlebred. Thanks a lot. I love Saddle seat as a whole. I started out in western, moved to hunt seat, and only after some pressuring from my mom did I move into saddle seat. I loved it from the moment I tried it. It was almost as if I was made to ride that seat. Eventually it got to the point where if I had to choose between riding hunt seat at a show or saddle seat, I'd choose saddle seat without even blinking. I miss it a lot. And Kellylee, I totally understand. I love my Morgan/Friesian cross, we get along really well and work well together but I truly miss riding a Saddlebred. They are one of my most favorite breeds. The Saddlebred I used to ride had to have the smoothest trot in the world and the faster he trotted the smoother he was. And his rack was incredible. Wow, I really miss all that.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

countryryder said:


> 99.9 % of all my experiences with Saddlebreds have been nothing but wonderful.


 
Isn't it frustrating that in life, there are always those few people that have to ruin it for others? When I think of how often people who have had little to no experience with the breed have these bad feelings about them because they heard of or saw a bad example it makes me so sad. It is heartbreaking how bad news travels around the globe but good stories are often over shadowed by those few bad ones. 

I know just how the people who love the Tennessee walkers but would never consider doing the things that are done to them to put them in Big Lick classes suffer from all the negative hype. You want to brag about your breed because you love them but know that there are others that are cringing just at the mention of it. It is sad. As they say, One bad apple spoils the rest. In this case, it isn't spoiling the rest of the horse, just the perception of their owners.


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## cb06 (Dec 30, 2012)

kellylee said:


> I am for sure doomed to never ride saddleseat again. Lady Dreamer - I just went to the equestrianlife.com website to check out the lesson program, and there is not a single barn in Maryland and only two out in southern Virginia :-(. I am, however, going to make it to Northwind Stables in NJ one weekend this spring and take advantage of a free lesson for sure! They have a wonderful rescue - AMERICAN HORSE ADOPTION operated by Saddlebred Rescue Inc. a 501C3 horse rescue - and I spend far too much time on their website dreaming of getting one of their horses. Now that is an organization that exemplifies the good in the Saddlebred world and shows just how much heart Saddlebreds have.
> 
> As a teenager, I learned to ride saddleseat at a Saddlebred farm in Alabama. They did a ton of showing and not only did they treat their horses extremely well, they took good care of all the barn rats that hung out there day in and day out. When my family moved to Georgia, I got a Morgan and even though I LOVED my horse, I always secretly wanted a Saddlebred. I returned to riding recently after all of these years, and I didn't even bother trying to find a farm that taught saddleseat because I am pretty sure they don't exist within a 2 hours of DC. I know that when I do take the plunge at get my own horse, it is going to be either a Saddlebred or a Morgan, and I will happily ignore anyone at the barn that looks down on me for not riding a breed more "suitable" for dressage


You are right, not much around DC...down around Charlottesville/Lexington there are some good ones. Saddlebred Rescue has had some really cute young sporty types lately that I have drooled over also!  I am in NOVA and my ASB showed dressage for the first time this past year at First level at recognized shows ...and did quite well...so you will not be alone!... and some of them can actually be quite suitable for dressage. Keep us posted when you take that plunge.


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## Cinder (Feb 20, 2011)

LadyDreamer, thanks for the link to that site. Living in a more suburban part of New York, I always try to keep my expectations low as to barns, but there was one only thirty minutes from my house! I've always been sort of interested in Saddlebreds, and this thread has just increased that.


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

For those who have questions about the motion of the horse and its gaits. Here is a video of a Saddlebred at liberty. I can't tell if this horse has shoes on though. He doesn't appear to.


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## RunSlideStop (Apr 21, 2012)

Didn't read past page 4. I have this to ask:

Why on Earth would we promote a discipline that encourages surgical procedures to enhance the "look" of things? I know this is not limited to Saddleseat horses: Some dressage horses and certainly WP horses have their tails modified so that they cannot swish them. Some drafts have their tails docked completely. 

If I wanted to be a basketball player, I wouldn't go to the doctor to have my legs stretched and have screws and pins added to make me taller. I would simply work harder to become faster and more agile, with better aim. If I wanted to be a swimmer, I wouldn't have webs surgically added to my fingers and toes. Why oh why is it acceptable to surgically modify animals for our amusement? Doberman Pinschers, Pit Bulls, and the like, have their ears docked. Why?... I can understand a cattle dog having it's tail docked so it doesn't get stepped on, but why does a Rottweiler need it's tail docked? Or any other basically non-working house dog?

Why don't we just breed for excellence and cull the losers? Sure would cut down a lot on all this backyard breeding and mass production breeding. Save a lot of money, too.

Rant over.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

RunSlideStop said:


> Didn't read past page 4. I have this to ask:
> 
> Why on Earth would we promote a discipline that encourages surgical procedures to enhance the "look" of things? I know this is not limited to Saddleseat horses: Some dressage horses and certainly WP horses have their tails modified so that they cannot swish them. Some drafts have their tails docked completely.
> 
> ...


First off, as it has already been stated, there are people working to put an end to the cut tails and more folks going natural. 

This isn't a thread about dogs but I also have Rottweiler's with cut tails. I didn't cut them, they were like that when I got them. That said, I did have a natural tail Rottie years ago that had to be docked as an adult because of a series of tail injuries. He had happy tail too so his tail was forever bloody and problematic. I didn't want to do it as I thought it would be a big deal but the vet said it was the best choice for that dog. Finally I had it done and the dog never seemed to notice. Not saying all dogs should be docked just that was my experience. 

Did I read that right? You are against docking or cropping but FOR culling? Really? 

As for promoting a discipline that encourages sugical proceedures? Some of the horses are cut but many are not. There are a lot of natural tail horses out there. In Saddleseat overall, more uncut then cut. Also, every discipline has it's dark side whether it is training methods, equipment or surgical. So much goes on that many don't see. One of the things I hate the most is the yearlings that are being ridden so they can be competing as 2 year olds. That happens in many disciplines.


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## LadyDreamer (Jan 25, 2008)

Well, it is a similar thing to the cropping of dogs ears, however it is less... Traumatic. We are not cutting off parts of them. Why crop a dobermans ears or dock his tail? Just for looks. 

It started off as a safety thing with the carriage horses, so that they could not clamp down should the lines get under the tail. Now it is purely for fashion. The high tail balances the image with the high neck. The horse maintains full use of his tail(exceptions occur with neglect of the tail during healing).

To reassure you, I posted a few pages back, we are slowly moving away from the practice. It is legal in every division for a horse to be shown with an unset tail, our judges(which are also our trainers) are getting used to them, and many shows, including the World Championships have added natural tail classes where they are playing on an even field. Right now, they stick out like a sore thumb and draw the eye. In doing so, every fault and mistake they make is noticed. They must make flawless shows and be considerably better than the rest. As they grow in popularity they will tie better. It is like odd colored horses or horses with a lot of white. They have to be so much better. 

We are working on it as an industry. There are many who love it and many who don't, but steps are being made to encourage natural tails and not penalize those who show in the higher divisions without a high tail.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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