# lethal white?



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

No, the foal is not lethal white. Lethal white or LWO foals die shortly after birth.
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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I would say dominant White and by dumb luck the foal did not come out LWO.


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## JetdecksComet (Jun 11, 2013)

It can take up to 72 hours for the foal to die if it is lethal white. That foal looks like it is straining hard, has it passed any fecal matter at all? Does it show signs that are similar to colic?


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## SlideStop (Dec 28, 2011)

JetdecksComet said:


> It can take up to 72 hours for the foal to die if it is lethal white. That foal looks like it is straining hard, has it passed any fecal matter at all? Does it show signs that are similar to colic?


Agreed. That doesn't look like a comfortable foal!
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

How old is the foal? Has it passed any fecal matter?

Lethal white, while connected to the colour of the horse, actually affects the bowel, leaving the foal with an intestine that cannot pass matter any further. 

In this case, a vet needs to be called IMMEDIATELY. Not tomorrow, not next week, now. If the baby is indeed LWO, then it needs to be euthed humanely, not left to suffer until it eventually passes away from impaction or rupture of the intestine.


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

Sorry to thread hijack, can someone explain exactly what lethal white syndrome is? And what causes it? 

More specifically how would the sire and dam in question cause this foal to have lethal white syndrome?
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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Looks lethal white to me. Has it pooped? If not, get your vet out asap to euthanize this poor foal.

Sire and dam don't have to be related to cause LWO. It's all in the Frame Overo gene.

A Frame Overo has 1 copy of the Frame gene.

When breeding Frame X Frame, there is a 25 percent chance of getting a homozygous frame (LWO) foal. The foal develops to term, but it does not have a complete digestive tract. So the foal cannot poop. So it dies a horrible, painful death. These foals are Homozygous Frame, and live less then 72 hours. 

Responsible genetic testing, and responsible breeding will prevent this from happening. 

Never, ever breed frame to frame.
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Indeed I can.

Lethal white is caused by the "frame overo" gene. When a horse has one copy, they are healthy as can be, with the "frame overo" pattern. However, if a horse has two copies, they are white all over, and their intestines don't work, resulting in a slow, painful death if not euthanased. They generally remain in pain for 72 or so hours before they die. 

The colour part of frame is a simple dominant, so just one copy is needed for colour to appear. However, it can hide really well either on horses with other patterns, horses with "normal" white markings, and even solid horses. And when you breed two horses that are positive for frame together, you have a 25% chance of a lethal white foal.

These horses are all TESTED frame carriers, showing the great extent of expression you can get.




























This one I have no idea if she has been tested, but this is the markings that would normally be called "frame". As you can see, what most people expect to see when thinking about frame is different to the multitude of ways that it can express.










At the end of the day, the test for frame is $25. There is no reason that any two frame positive horses should EVER, EVER, EVER be bred together when the test is that cheap and very convenient.


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

Okay thanks for the info! Man, that is horrible. Hoping with all my heart this foal does not have LW.
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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

That foal still looks very very new, so there is a chance it is a lethal white. Same with everyone else: how old is it and has it pooped?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I'm going to ditto the question of if the foal has pooped.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> No, the foal is not lethal white. Lethal white or LWO foals die shortly after birth.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Disclaimer! The pic wasn't up when I replied. If I had seen the pic, my answer would have been VERY different.
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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Hopefully this isn't your foal as this is very irresponsible breeding and it looks like the foal might be LWO. Waiting on question answers like the others.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My post was amusing the foal was not a new born (possibly a week old and stretching). If this foal was/is under 72 hours old then I say LWO. If not, then dumb luck.


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## gramdee (Sep 25, 2013)

Angel has earned her wings. She was laid to rest last night. The vet was out and confirmed that she was LWOS and we let her go peacefully. Rest in peace Our little Angel.


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## gramdee (Sep 25, 2013)

Angel's sire we were told was a black solid.... dam is overo.... now we know the sire is actually a black overo. 
Angel was only 12 hrs old. We let her go humanely


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Sorry to hear that. :-( As you can see if the photos Chiilaa posted it's not always obvious when a horse carries frame overo, which is why testing is important for any breed that carries frame (and grade horses whose history is unknown) Looks like you learned the hard way this time :-(


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

R.I.P. Little one.


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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

😰😥
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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Poor thing. I'm sorry you had to experience this. There is a positive in this: this can be used as an example for the future when we bring up testing for frame in breeding threads. The last time there was a scare like this posted, the foal ended up only being N/O, but still an unnerving wait until it was born.

I should ask now as well: would you mind if her picture was used as an example of what a LWOS foal looks like? It's a semi-frequent question, but there are few pictures to be found (of decent quality, anyway) to fully depict how the foals look. 

My condolences to you.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Was the stud your horse Coal? I highly suggest gelding him ASAP. She will end up pregnant again and you face this possibility with every mare you him housed with.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Was the stud your horse Coal? I highly suggest gelding him ASAP. She will end up pregnant again and you face this possibility with every mare you him housed with.


I'm going to be harsh for a second, even after posting a sympathetic post. I saw in your other thread that he is not already gelded because your husband does not believe in altering male animals. Honestly, if he still doesn't believe that Coal should be gelded after you just had another animal die because of it, then you should not own a male horse.


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## Aesthetic (Aug 7, 2012)

I'm sorry for your loss. Definitely perform tests in the future. 

If the stud is your stallion coal, I agree with others. Geld him. That gene itself makes me turn from all animals carrying it. He will make a happy nice gelding.
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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Aesthetic said:


> That gene itself makes me turn from all animals carrying it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Off topic, but may I ask why? It is completely harmless with a single copy and if you were planning to breed, it's really not that difficult to avoid another frame stallion because most reputable breeders will know the frame status of their stallion.


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## Aesthetic (Aug 7, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> Off topic, but may I ask why? It is completely harmless with a single copy and if you were planning to breed, it's really not that difficult to avoid another frame stallion because most reputable breeders will know the frame status of their stallion.


I should have specified as "breeding." Haha. 
No matter, I don't like the gene. I actually read a story posted of a solid registered QH mare having a lethal white foal. Why? Because she had a solid overdo in her lineage somewhere! It showed me how easily accidents can happen like that. Also, I only breed quarters and paints IF I do breed. So the gene itself in BREEDING makes me turn and walk away. 
Now if it were a gelding or a mare that isn't bred. By all means, I have no issue.
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

See that doesn't make sense to me as it's a testable gene. That's why po, chiilaa and I advocate testing ALL stock type horses for Frame before breeding.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Aesthetic said:


> I should have specified as "breeding." Haha.
> No matter, I don't like the gene. I actually read a story posted of a solid registered QH mare having a lethal white foal. Why? Because she had a solid overdo in her lineage somewhere! It showed me how easily accidents can happen like that. Also, I only breed quarters and paints IF I do breed. So the gene itself in BREEDING makes me turn and walk away.
> Now if it were a gelding or a mare that isn't bred. By all means, I have no issue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Gotcha. To be fair, the test is only $25 and this is the reason we encourage many people breeding on the forum to test their stock breeds for frame regardless of how much white they show. I have a solid Paint that is N/O. However, I also know she's out of a loud colored mare and have enough color knowledge to know that the shape of her blaze is a pretty good giveaway.


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## Aesthetic (Aug 7, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> Gotcha. To be fair, the test is only $25 and this is the reason we encourage many people breeding on the forum to test their stock breeds for frame regardless of how much white they show. I have a solid Paint that is N/O. However, I also know she's out of a loud colored mare and have enough color knowledge to know that the shape of her blaze is a pretty good giveaway.


I also personally find overo not being a pattern I find attractive. I really like tobianos  
But yes I understand, I recently found out about Lethal White, which makes me wonder if paint breeders or stallion owners ever mention the risk to their customers. 
Anyways, I definitely am testing before I breed my next mare. If I would have known about the serious risks of Lethal White and other items I would have tested before I bred her last time. 
I've just never really heard about it! I guess it just isn't common!
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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

It's more common than you think and REPUTABLE breeders will discuss it with you :wink:


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## Aesthetic (Aug 7, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> It's more common than you think and REPUTABLE breeders will discuss it with you :wink:


Well now I know not to breed to a breeder who won't mention a possible gene risk! 
I'll definitely learn to keep that in mind!
Goodness, strange and devastating disease
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## Rideordie112 (Dec 7, 2013)

I love overos! But this is why people need to be careful!
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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

OP, your stallion carries the Lethal White gene, anything, and I mean ANYTHING that stallion breeds with should be tested, LW hides in solid horses, as you have discovered. So sorry for your loss.


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## JetdecksComet (Jun 11, 2013)

Aesthetic said:


> I also personally find overo not being a pattern I find attractive. I really like tobianos
> But yes I understand, I recently found out about Lethal White, which makes me wonder if paint breeders or stallion owners ever mention the risk to their customers.
> Anyways, I definitely am testing before I breed my next mare. If I would have known about the serious risks of Lethal White and other items I would have tested before I bred her last time.
> I've just never really heard about it! I guess it just isn't common!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I'm glad you are having her tested before breeding. 

I see you said you like tobianos, just be aware that any horse, even solids and tobianos can carry the LWO gene.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Sad situation. Sorry for your loss. I hope this hard lesson will help your husband understand why gelding is necessary.
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## Nikkibella (Mar 10, 2012)

Rip little one, sorry for your loss!
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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

I also advocate testing for frame on any stock horse. Heck, my mare I used to own, now that I know a lot more about colors, I bet you bottom dollar she would test positive for frame. I recall on her papers (had papers but never got registered, figure that out lol) her dam was black overo and I think her sire was too :-x so she lucked out.

She is all black except for a small white marking on her neck, which you can kind of see in my avatar, and some white flecks in her flanks. If I still owned her I'd test her out of curiosity, next time I visit I might snag some hairs from her haha. New owner is a friend of mine.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Bridgertrot said:


> I also advocate testing for frame on any stock horse. Heck, my mare I used to own, now that I know a lot more about colors, I bet you bottom dollar she would test positive for frame. I recall on her papers (had papers but never got registered, figure that out lol) her dam was black overo and I think her sire was too :-x so she lucked out.
> 
> She is all black except for a small white marking on her neck, which you can kind of see in my avatar, and some white flecks in her flanks. If I still owned her I'd test her out of curiosity, next time I visit I might snag some hairs from her haha. New owner is a friend of mine.


The term overo basically means not a tobiano pinto. Frame, sabino and splash are all lumped into the overo classification.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

SunnyDraco said:


> The term overo basically means not a tobiano pinto. Frame, sabino and splash are all lumped into the overo classification.


Only in the APHA. Otherwise overo is the frame gene and sabino and splash are... well, sabino and splash.


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## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

I don't know why my picture keeps not working on my previous post. Here's a picture to replace it. I forgot too she did have a roan patch on her barrel too.










And closeup of her only paint spot since I was talking about it anyway lol









I so want to test her haha


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

ponyboy said:


> Only in the APHA. Otherwise overo is the frame gene and sabino and splash are... well, sabino and splash.


Not just in the APHA. Many, many people still lump those together and they are not all in the APHA.
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## mysticdragon72 (Nov 1, 2010)

I would like to add here that it's not just stock type breeds that have the LWO genes.. I recently found out that TWHs also can carry it so I'm guessing that the safest way to breed ANY horse that has pinto patterning in their pedigree should be tested? Sounds like a good idea and it's well worth the $25 even if the breed itself has never been found to have it. 

ttfn
Mystic.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

The reason we stress most for stock breeds is because most people know QHs as solid colored and Paints as spotted, but not much past that; however, QHs carry all three overo genes and those were the reason the APHA was even created: random horses were born with extra color that was not desired. So for QHs: the white patterns "hide" as what are considered "normal" white markings. 

For Paints, many don't know much about individual white patterns other than tobiano, overo, and, unfortunately, "tovero" because god forbid the APHA provide actual descriptions on their website, which is the main reference many Paint owners use when citing information. This means they don't know that a horse can have multiple patterns without outright distinction. (Though admittedly, last year the Paint Horse Journal published a series of well informed articles describing each pattern and how they interact. Unfortunately, the actual association did not seem to care.)

Appaloosas also fall into both of those categories.


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## Annefrankvb (May 26, 2015)

Hi,

I am a vet student currently writing my Bachelor thesis. I am writing about Lethal White, and I a picture that you posted a little while ago with a foal on it...
I am so sorry to hear that it was LWO 
And I hope I don't sound too heartless now, but can I use your picture in my thesis? Since it is very difficult to find pictures with LWOs....
Beneath the picture I will put "Kindly borrowed from (your name)".

I hope you can help me 

Kind regards, Anne Frank vom Braucke


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