# Ignorant horse buyer and Brand inspection.



## Windygirl

Hi, 
To start. *I* am the ignorant horse buyer in this situation. I was raised with horses and thought I did my homework when I got my horse, However, I missed a whole area I did not even know existed!! Branding inspections...Now when I bought my horse I was charged for the brand inspection, but since "Lady" is the first horse I have ever purchased as an adult
I didn't realize it was something that was separate from her bill of sale or registration. 

I have decided to move my horse to another county in the care of a friend who has cancer, the reasoning for this is because he has an innate love of horses and has the means and support to do so plus, Lady will be his therapy animal. 
And that to me is volumes for both him and the horse...When he was here earlier this month him and Lady developed a very nice repore and I know both will do well...Not the point here though sorry got off track. 

When I went to call for BI I learned that I never received the actual documentation needed though I paid for it, the inspector states he has not seen this brand in Montana and it HAS NOT been inspcted by him or his coworkers and if she had been inspected he would have been the one to do it as I was told the horse comes from our BI district by the previous owner...

So what do I do here? Does this mean my horse was stolen by the seller? The BI said I would not face repercussions because I DO have a bill of sale on her, But does this mean they will take her from me? What will happen to my horse? 
I'm worried sick!! Is there paperwork that can be traced by her registration #?
:-(

Lesson always do your homework about Paperwork...owning a horse is more then owning a horse it is a legal process as well..please info anyone!


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## kevinshorses

Many horses change hands without the proper paperwork. Usually the BI takes a description of the horse and writes you a brand inspection then checks the description against stolen or missing horse reports. It is highly unlikely that the horse is stolenas there is lots of risk and not much to gain by stealing horses and most states east of the Rockies don't have brand inspestions so that would be where horses that are stolen would be sold. Are you sure that you need to have a BI to transport a horse within the state?


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## Windygirl

Kevinshorses, I was wondering that as well, in the State of Montana you are required to get a BI upon sales of a horse or if you are leaving a BI district with your horse and does carry a pretty hefty fine.


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## wyominggrandma

Wyoming is the same, if you cross county lines, you are required to have a current BI from the county you live in. I get a lifetime BI when I buy a horse, it usually costs about $25, and I carry copies in the horse trailer, along with copies of their paperwork. 
To be honest, I have bought a horse in Utah under extreme conditions for the horse( horribly abused and dying )and did not wait for a brand inspection, I just wanted to get the horse home to the vet. I trailered him home and because I had the signed registration papers, the BI here in Wyoming came, examined him, wrote the registration information and gave me a brand inspection. If he had gotten information that the horse was stolen, as Kevin said, then he would have come back.
If you have a bill of sale and registration papers, your BI can do a brand inspection on the horse, it sounds like down the line the paperwork was lost or never done, and maybe it will make a bit more work for him and he doesn't want to do it. Especially if the horse is from the same area as you are in now.


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## Alwaysbehind

Coming from a state that does not do brand inspections, this whole conversation is interesting.


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## riccil0ve

Alwaysbehind said:


> Coming from a state that does not do brand inspections, this whole conversation is interesting.


I agree. I find the whole process very interesting. I don't think my state requires them either.


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## kevinshorses

riccil0ve said:


> I agree. I find the whole process very interesting. I don't think my state requires them either.


I think all western states require them so you may want to check.


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## farmpony84

I have to agree with ricci and always. I actually feel ignorant myself, I didn't even know about brand inspections. Very interesting.


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## Alwaysbehind

kevinshorses said:


> I think all western states require them so you may want to check.


I did a search and the state of Washington  Does appear to require them.


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## Speed Racer

Wait, the western states require something we regulation-choked eastern states _don't_? I didn't think that was possible! :wink:

Very interesting topic. Learned something new today.


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## Alwaysbehind

Speed Racer said:


> Wait, the western states require something we regulation-choked eastern states _don't_? I didn't think that was possible! :wink:


Shocking, isn't it? (Almost as shocking as me finding something on line using Google.)

Do not tell anyone. I am sure they will quickly see it as a revenue source and we will require an updated brand inspection to walk our horse down the driveway.


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## riccil0ve

If I'm reading right, it's required to move out of the [WA] state. Isn't that what papers are for, though? To prove the horse in your hands is the horse on the papers is the horse you own?

I'm not really looking for answers. I personally don't care. I can prove I own the horse, so if I happen to get pulled over moving them from one facility to another, there's nothing they can do. If I ever cross state lines, I'll deal with it then.

As a side-note, when my friend moved her mare from Washington to Montana, she got a brand inspection in Montana after the move without any problems. Another friend is moving her three horses to Utah from Washington, and she just has to get a health check and Coggins pulled. She wasn't told anything about a BI.


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## wyominggrandma

If you get pulled over in states that require brand inspections, which most western states do, and you do not have one, they can confiscate your horse until a brand inspector shows up and finds out information on your horse, etc. It doesn't matter if you have paperwork that shows the horse is yours, registrations papers, bill of sale, if a brand inspection is required, you can get a HUGE fine and the horse can be stabled until a brand inspector deals with it. 
In Wyoming, even if you cross county lines, if you don't have a brand inspection, you can be turned around and not allowed in the county.So, crossing state lines without one is even worse. Same as a Coggins, if it is required, and most states require a current one, if you are asked to show your Coggins and do not have one, the horse can be stabled and has to stay there until a Coggins is drawn, sent in and received back.
Here is the law pertaining to Washington. They require brand inspections going into or out of Washington. Plus,Transportation of livestock on the public highways of the state must be accompanied by an official certificate of brand inspection or an original certificate of permit.

Brand inspections don't cost much and so much easier to carry the paperwork in the trailer for wherever you go.


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## wyominggrandma

riccil0ve said:


> As a side-note, when my friend moved her mare from Washington to Montana, she got a brand inspection in Montana after the move without any problems. Another friend is moving her three horses to Utah from Washington, and she just has to get a health check and Coggins pulled. She wasn't told anything about a BI.


She needs to check the laws, Utah requires BI's into and out of the state, WA requires them leaving the state. And according to the WA laws, a bill of sale or registration papers are not enough to show ownership, you must have a BI or permit.
Just call the vet, they have a book that shows what ALL states require. Call the livestock board for your state, they will tell you all about BI and when they are needed.


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## Windygirl

So I just got finished with the BI and we were able to get enough done to get a TRANSPORT ONLY BI done. The previous owner had apparently felt I did not need it since he (I paid him) he paid for it...grrr. None the less Lady will be on her way at 7 am to her new pasture and friends. The Brand inspector, totally schooled the previous owner about it and I would not have wanted to be on the other end of the phone when that man went off on him LOL...needless to say, read the laws before you buy or transport!!!


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## wyominggrandma

Good, sounds like your hard work paid off. Glad the BI inspector was able to help so you can move her. Will the old owner give you the current BI that you paid for?
Yes,it does pay to make sure what the laws are. Had an interesting scenerio from a dog show back east, seems folks were stopped and asked for rabies certificates on the show dogs they had. They did not carry them and got in trouble, fined and almost had their dogs confiscated. They did not know the laws crossing state lines. Like I said about the horses and BI, carry rabies certificates in your vehicles and if you ever get stopped, you have them
Copies of these kind of things don't cost much, and sure saves alot of headache. Most law enforcement are nice, but what happens if you just get one that is a "stick by the book" kinda officer and you do not have the correct paperwork, horses or dogs???? Not worth the risk or trouble if you ask me.


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## Juniper

the brand inspection laws are strict, and a bit convoluted, in Montana and you are expected to know all the details. Better not cross county lines without a current one in your trailer. So many people do not understand them and some new comers don't even know they are required. My suggestion to anyone in a BI state, call the brand inspector when you purchase or sell a horse, before you make the transaction, and get the scoop.


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## Delfina

Brand Inspection laws are so strict that here if you are transporting a horse without a copy of it's BI paperwork and you have a Commercial Driver's License, you will automatically lose your license, even if you are hauling for personal reasons, not as a business. 

The papers for the horse are irrelevant when it comes to Brand Inspections. If you get pulled over, they don't even want to see the papers.... just Brand Inspection and Coggins. 

My hubby has a Commercial License, so we are very careful to ensure that we always have the Brand Inspection (just a copy, original is in a filing cabinet) and Coggins when traveling.


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## Pidge

Now this is truely interesting...what if your horse doesnt have a brand?

Just curious...Im from TX and this doesnt affect me...so long as you have coggins your good down here...but its interesting to say the least.

But really if for say you had a horse without a brand...what would become of the BI restrictions? Neither of my two horses are branded...


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## Delfina

There is no actual "branding" of the horses for a Brand Inspection. 

Basically the Brand Inspector visually examines the horse, colors it's markings/defects onto a diagram of a horse and adds any comments, then compares it to the markings/comments noted at the last Brand Inspection to ensure it's the same horse and then signs off on it. If the horse was branded or tattooed, that would also be noted.

My horse has no "brand" but she has had her Brand Inspection done. She has a rather significant divot in her neck (we were told it was a t-post accident but who really knows.....) so that is marked on her Brand Inspection as an identifying mark.


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## Windygirl

wyominggrandma said:


> Good, sounds like your hard work paid off. Glad the BI inspector was able to help so you can move her. Will the old owner give you the current BI that you paid for?


When the BI called him, he told him he wanted papers on his desk by Friday Morning or he would be paying a hefty fine. He can send them to me or the BI the BI said that there should be no reason they are not here by then, and to notify him if I do not get him, The BI also told me the man didn't give me "real" registration papers just a transfer report for AQHA..so basically he gave me close to nothing! But sounds like that is going to change and that all the paperwork should be in order and complete by next week or so...Whew!


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## Windygirl

States that require Brand inspections

South Dakota, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Nevada, Colorado, Utah seems to be some in California, Nebraska, Washington,

Oregon is not needed for ownership change but for crossing counties and districts...
Please expand if I missed any


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## wild_spot

How bizarre! We don't have coggins or BI in Australia. Sounds very complicated!


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## kevinshorses

If youare passing through a state that requires a brand inspection and you don't have a BI and you get pulled over DO NOT UNLOAD YOUR HORSE. I was told by a relatively reliable source that if you don't unload your horses they are on less firm ground for holding them. Tell the officer that it took you 4 hours to load them and your buddy is still in the hospital from helping you but don't unload. There are lots of reasons that you could be hauling a horse through say Colorado without a BI. For instance when my parents moved from Oklahoma back to Utah they didn't have a BI for any horse because there is no BIs in Oklahoma. Had they been pulled over in Wyoming by an overzealous cop it could have caused trouble.


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## riccil0ve

I'm sorry, I know most of you that replied to me are looking out for me, but I really don't care, lol. I only know one person, out of the many, many horse people I know, who has a BI. I hardly ever transport my horse, I have no trailer so vets come to me. When I do move them to a new place, I'll do what I need for that place, but until then, meh. =]


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## Windygirl

riccil0ve said:


> I'm sorry, I know most of you that replied to me are looking out for me, but I really don't care, lol. I only know one person, out of the many, many horse people I know, who has a BI. I hardly ever transport my horse, I have no trailer so vets come to me. When I do move them to a new place, I'll do what I need for that place, but until then, meh. =]


I know you don't think it's a big to do and your state doesn't require transfer papers on ownership change, but something could come up and waiting til the last second is what gets most people into trouble because most BI's are nto cool with being rushed. 1 emergency is all it takes and you could lose your horse, it's only 10.50 in WA to inspect and 25.00 covers her entire lifetime...After going through this with my mare, I will always have it done, I was not so concerned with any fines I may have had to of paid I was worried about Ladies safety on this one...it's peace of mind for sure!:wink:


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## wyominggrandma

riccil0ve said:


> I'm sorry, I know most of you that replied to me are looking out for me, but I really don't care, lol. I only know one person, out of the many, many horse people I know, who has a BI. I hardly ever transport my horse, I have no trailer so vets come to me. When I do move them to a new place, I'll do what I need for that place, but until then, meh. =]


Ahhh, the thoughts of youth. Don't fix it ahead of time, wait until you get caught and then fix it. 
BI's are REQUIRED in your state to move you horse, anywhere within the state, on ANY public road, they are PROOF of ownership(registration, bill of sale, etc are not enough) and you are not worried about it and "really don't care"..... You will care when you get caught for whatever reason and have the law come down on you. So will the many many horse people you know, but the one SMART person who does have a BI will be laughing at all of you.$25 for the lifetime of the horse is a small price to pay for fines and possibly losing your horse for not obeying the laws.


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## Alwaysbehind

Windy, glad things are getting worked out!

Ricci, I have to agree with grandma, you really should just get your BI so you do not have to worry about it. It is a silly thing to be so hard headed about.


For all you in the know about brand inspection stuff - if you live in a state that does not require BIs, but you are traveling through some states that do require a BI, how do you go about getting one? Are they a state specific thing? Do you have to stop some where in each state and get that states seal of approval? Is there a place to get a BI in states that do not do them?


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## wyominggrandma

Just check with the local authorities and they should be able to head you in the direction of the local brand inspector. Or give a call to the state vet in your state and tell them what you want and how to obtain it. Any state that has cattle will have a brand inspector. The inspections are made of the animal and a paper filled out stating the animal has/has not a brand, the markings are filled out,ownership etc. Sorta like a Coggins paper to fill out, but signed by the brand inspector.
Yes, if you travel from a state that does not require one, into a state that does, you need one. 
Like I said earlier, a brand inspection is like a rabies vaccination certificate for dogs. Why not just travel with one in case your dog should bite, you have proof of a vaccination. Otherwise your dog could be impounded or like in Wyoming, they can take you dog and euthanize it immediately and have the brain sent off if the dog bites someone and no vaccination for rabies. A simple paper takes care of that. 
A simple piece of paper showing a brand inspection takes care of possible fines and impound of your horse. I know some people say" I have the registration papers, bill of sale, etc and that shows ownership, so I am okay". Actually if you really read into livestock laws, some states specifically state that you have to have a brand inspection or state permit to travel on ANY public road, bill of sale, etc is not proof of ownership. How silly ricciLove will be if she gets stopped and is asked for BI or state permit showing ownership and not have it, and get a fine and have her horse impounded. So many folks just figure its not a big deal, it certainly can be and when it happens its too late to laugh about it then.


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## riccil0ve

Did I not say that when I do move my horses, I'll do what I need to do? A cop isn't going to come to my barn and demand a BI or Coggins. As I said, I don't trailer anywhere, I don't even have a trailer, nor a truck big enough to pull one.

Sorry, but comments about my youth affecting my judgement is uncalled for. I am very responsible, and seeing as no one on here knows me, I would rather not be clumped into the group of silly little girls. I haven't been a child since I was five. Ask my mother.


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## mls

kevinshorses said:


> If youare passing through a state that requires a brand inspection and you don't have a BI and you get pulled over DO NOT UNLOAD YOUR HORSE. I was told by a relatively reliable source that if you don't unload your horses they are on less firm ground for holding them. Tell the officer that it took you 4 hours to load them and your buddy is still in the hospital from helping you but don't unload. There are lots of reasons that you could be hauling a horse through say Colorado without a BI. For instance when my parents moved from Oklahoma back to Utah they didn't have a BI for any horse because there is no BIs in Oklahoma. Had they been pulled over in Wyoming by an overzealous cop it could have caused trouble.


Hmm. We have a horse hotel. Have not had one customer comment on any issues with brand inspections coming from or going to the west.


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## Windygirl

riccil0ve said:


> Did I not say that when I do move my horses, I'll do what I need to do? A cop isn't going to come to my barn and demand a BI or Coggins. As I said, I don't trailer anywhere, I don't even have a trailer, nor a truck big enough to pull one.
> 
> Sorry, but comments about my youth affecting my judgement is uncalled for. I am very responsible, and seeing as no one on here knows me, I would rather not be clumped into the group of silly little girls. I haven't been a child since I was five. Ask my mother.


I think what is trying to be said here is, you never know when you may have to move your horse, I don't own a trailer either and was not planning on my friend getting cancer or ever sending my horse anywhere, wasn't in the books, but realistically life happens, Fires, emergencies, any sort of thing could require you to move your horse, Waiting until the very last minute can cause possible undue stress on you AND your horse....Would you drive your car w/o insurance or wait until the day before a major trip to cover it? Would
you wait until you are sick to by health insurance or dead to by life insurance?

I think the comments about your age is because you are definitely portraying your frame of mind as such, When I was a teenager, I waited until I HAD to do something to do it, As an adult I have become proactive and do things before they are needed, I have become proactive. That is a tell tell sign of age, and you cannot blame the other posters for pointing it out. I hope for you that you will never have the emergency that will require your horse to be moved, but still it's better to have been prepared.


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## riccil0ve

I see what your saying, but I do not find it that important. You may think that's silly, but seeing as how many people I know that do not have one who have moved their horses several times, as well as sold and bought and sold again, it just doesn't seem to be a pressing matter. The one friend who DOES have one, has one because the school she took her horse to in Montana required one. And she got hers IN Montana.

When I have the money that I can spend on things that are fairly irrelevant, I'll do it. But as I said, I don't really care, and until then, I'd rather use that money for necessities, like food. Not a piece of paper that I most likely will never ever need. I am young, I am NOT stupid, naive, a child, etc. I am an adult who has made a decision after she thought about it, as well as weighed the pros and cons.


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## farmpony84

does that mean all horses in the western states have to be branded?


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## Alwaysbehind

No, read Delfina's post on the bottom of page 2.


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## farmpony84

Alwaysbehind said:


> No, read Delfina's post on the bottom of page 2.


Thanks. Gosh, I missed to whole pages of responses since yesterday!:shock:


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## Pidge

Delfina said:


> There is no actual "branding" of the horses for a Brand Inspection.
> 
> Basically the Brand Inspector visually examines the horse, colors it's markings/defects onto a diagram of a horse and adds any comments, then compares it to the markings/comments noted at the last Brand Inspection to ensure it's the same horse and then signs off on it. If the horse was branded or tattooed, that would also be noted.
> 
> My horse has no "brand" but she has had her Brand Inspection done. She has a rather significant divot in her neck (we were told it was a t-post accident but who really knows.....) so that is marked on her Brand Inspection as an identifying mark.


Ah thank you for clearing things up for me...hmm...this is interesting...i may have to check into this....


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## wyominggrandma

ricciilove, I did not mean to insult you at all. I think of "youth" as anyone under 21, and I certainly did not mean you are a child. 
I just meant it as a comment, younger folks tend to do things when they need to be done, not ahead of time, like us old timers have learned to do. I plan 6 months ahead for dog shows and just get used to doing all things like that. 
You are right, the cops won't come to your barn, just was advice from folks that may have had to deal with the issues we are discussing


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## riccil0ve

wyominggrandma said:


> ricciilove, I did not mean to insult you at all. I think of "youth" as anyone under 21, and I certainly did not mean you are a child.
> I just meant it as a comment, younger folks tend to do things when they need to be done, not ahead of time, like us old timers have learned to do. I plan 6 months ahead for dog shows and just get used to doing all things like that.
> You are right, the cops won't come to your barn, just was advice from folks that may have had to deal with the issues we are discussing


I understand. No hard feelings. =] It's just that I could go through the hassle of two brand inspections, or I can put that money towards finding a truck and trailer for any emergency haulings that come up, you know? Money adds up [or subtracts ] awfully quickly.


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## Juniper

Remember, brand inspections are actually to help find stolen horses. They are for our protection! Brand inspections keep unsavory people from being horse dealers with out a license too. Since you can't transfer ownership without the BI, people can't sell more than a certain number of horses in a set time without getting a "dealer" license. More regulation but sadly needed in the horse community because of the few bad apples. I am not huge on government paperwork but this is actually a help to the horse community. For example, a horse cannot be stolen and sold for slaughter with out a brand inspection.


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## AlmostThere

Windygirl said:


> States that require Brand inspections
> 
> South Dakota, Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Nevada, Colorado, Utah seems to be some in California, Nebraska, Washington,
> 
> Oregon is not needed for ownership change but for crossing counties and districts...
> Please expand if I missed any


Anyone know if Arizona is on the list? My horse was abandoned, then taken in by the people who gave him to me. I have a bill of sale for $1. But at the time I thought his name was Gus, they had never checked his lip tattoo. If I do need a BI, will the hand written (signed by previous owner, but I'd bet a million dollars they never had him Brand inspected) bill of sale be enough to prove ownership?


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## smrobs

Huh, I have never had any experience with BI either. I know that there is one that goes to the local stockyard sometimes to check cattle but I've never had one done on a horse. That's kinda screwball that some states require them but some states don't.


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## AlmostThere

AlmostThere said:


> Anyone know if Arizona is on the list?


Okay, now to answer my own question. My husband's google-fu is awesome and he found that as of 2002 licensing and registration (our equivalent of a BI in regards to horses apparently) in AZ is voluntary and there is no penalty if a horse owner chooses not to participate.

Whew.

The only reference to BI, with regards to horses, in AZ I could find was in reference to horses intended for use as meat.


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## Indyhorse

Three of my horses (Claymore, Freyja, and Finn) had BIs done when they were transported to me out of SD. I hung on to the paperwork because I didn't know if it was important or not - since I am not in a BI state is there any reason to continue to hold on to them (a year later)?


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## Delfina

I'd hang onto them just in case or some reason you end up transporting your horse into or through a BI state, you'll have the paperwork. It also serves as one more piece of "proof" that you own those horses, should that ever be questioned.


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## Indyhorse

You know what, that's probably a really good idea. Since my horses aren't registered, all I have are BOS. I don't even have that on Freyja, since she was free, but I do have her transport coggins and her BI - so I'll keep hold of them - thanks Delfina!


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## Nita

Sorry, I know I'm kinda randomly popping in, and I apologize if I say something that's already been discussed....

In Montana, a BI is proof that you own your horse, as much as or more so than a bill of sale. I'm not sure why that is, but that's what people are all about. Every time I've bought a horse, that has been a major point. And you can get permanent ones, where the inspector gives them to you and they are all laminated and nice and they say the owners name... And it's for as long as you keep your horse. Some you have to get... like every time you leave your county, but it gets expensive.

Just throwing that out there. =)


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## Amarea

I have a binder will all of Stifflers info in it so that way I always know where it is


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## mudpie

Now this may be a stupid question... but what if a horse doesn't have a brand?


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## smrobs

I believe that their markings and any scars they may have that get documented as well. Basically, anything that can positively identify the horse.

I may be wrong though, we don't have brand inspectors around here.


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## Delfina

It was covered a couple pages back, but I'll repeat it.

A brand inspection has nothing to do with an actual brand. A brand inspector comes out, physically inspects the horse and checks to see if it matches any missing horses if you do not already possess a valid brand inspection. He then fills out a piece of paper which has a diagram of a horse and he draws in all applicable marks/defects and makes notes of anything notable regarding said horse and signs the piece of paper.

Brand Inspections were originally started in an attempt to reduce cattle theft (as cattle are normally branded) and some wiseguy figured "Oh hey, we can make more $$$, lets brand inspect EVERYTHING!!".

So in reality, brand inspector shows up on your property, glares at the 6" mud that tends to be present at barns, glances at said horse from halfway across the barnyard, fills out his form and holds out his hand for a check. I had to make the brand inspector re-do my last BI because it didn't match the horse! 

Legally they are required in many states and it's a bad idea to skip out on having it done, even if it is a joke. Penalties can include confiscation of your vehicle, trailer and un-inspected livestock.


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## Juniper

Why are brand inspectors always SOOO cranky?


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## trailhorserider

Juniper said:


> Why are brand inspectors always SOOO cranky?


I am in Arizona and when I first moved up here they DID require brand inspections. And guess what? I got a cranky brand inspector too! 

I had just bought the horse and he was a little shy of people around his face and the brand inspector was irked because he kept moving his head away from her.

But the horse was a Paint and she did make a very good effort at getting his markings correct, so no complaints there.

Now they aren't required and I don't know of anyone who has one done. Well, a friend did find a stray horse and I think someone from the county came out and looked at it so it could be sold if not claimed (it never was), but that's about it.


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## DieselPony

Juniper said:


> Why are brand inspectors always SOOO cranky?


Because they have terrible bosses...But that just may be the guys I know. Hey, lets give this poor one man 7 farms of 300 head to inspect in one day and then freak out when he doesn't get it done. Or heaven forbid, one steer slips through. 

And horses do NOT have to be branded. Its hard to get a branding right and with so many "pet" horses, can you imagine every horse owner that ever bred their own foal having their own brand? It would be an awesome way to lower the back yard breeding thing, but completely different story there.

Edit: Oops, just realized this is a fairly old thread. Oh well.


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## Crossover

need a delete button


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I find all this BI discussion interesting. Until I met a person from CO I had never heard of such a thing. I have travelled into and out of NM, UT, & CO with horses who are not brand inspected, on my way to somewhere else and stopped at the weigh stations to have the Coggins and Health Certs stamped and NEVER once have I been asked about a BI. On the Coggins it says where you're coming from and where you're headed, and as long as I've just been passing through, they've never cared about a BI. I have had inspectors come out and look at the pretty ponies (rarely) but that's it.


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## Missy May

I have always had brand inspections on my horses. I grew up w "that is what ya do". It is protection for every horse owner, and I think it should be inforced (i.e., random stopping of horses being hauled). Ordinarily, if someone doesn't have a BI coming from a western state crossing state lines, they can't produce a vet check or a coggins, either. If a horse never left your property, there would be little need for a bi. They are dirt cheap, and a lifetime is only about $10 more than annual. It proves the individual that is hauling the horse has the right to do so - or info by which it can easily be verified.


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## WickedNag

South Dakota only requires brand inspections west river....so if I take my horses to the Black Hills, I need one.


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## Missy May

WickedNag said:


> South Dakota only requires brand inspections west river....so if I take my horses to the Black Hills, I need one.


Wow, that is interesting. There must been some forgotten "logical reason" there.


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## COWCHICK77

In Nevada you are required to have a BI, no questions asked, also a current set of health papers. You can buy a lifetime inspection for $20. The BI is also good in neighboring states- CA, AZ, ID, OR and UT. Also you are required to a have a Transportation Permit, you buy a book of them through the brand inspector. You must have a completed Transport Permit for every trip.

If you are just passing through, you are required to have the documentation required from your orgin state.

Nevada takes it pretty serious and will fine and/or seize your livestock if not followed.


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## cmarie

COWCHICK77 said:


> In Nevada you are required to have a BI, no questions asked, also a current set of health papers. You can buy a lifetime inspection for $20. The BI is also good in neighboring states- CA, AZ, ID, OR and UT. Also you are required to a have a Transportation Permit, you buy a book of them through the brand inspector. You must have a completed Transport Permit for every trip.
> 
> If you are just passing through, you are required to have the documentation required from your orgin state.
> 
> Nevada takes it pretty serious and will fine and/or seize your livestock if not followed.


I've never been stopped hauling horses in NV, I've been stopped with an empty trailer because a tail light was out. I don't carry papers around when hauling locally, only if I'm moving a horse I sold or bought, not for trips to the vet or to the lake.


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## COWCHICK77

cmarie said:


> I've never been stopped hauling horses in NV, I've been stopped with an empty trailer because a tail light was out. I don't carry papers around when hauling locally, only if I'm moving a horse I sold or bought, not for trips to the vet or to the lake.


I have been stopped on several occasions, especially hauling cattle up to the sale in Twin Falls. If we left the ranch the owner required us to fill out a TP. 

Never been stopped with one or two horses, but if it was full, we have been stopped. We went back and forth from Ely a lot to lease ground.


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## cmarie

I see cattle trucks stopped all the time but not rigs hauling horses, at least not around Carson, Reno, and Fallon areas. It could be different in Eastern NV. I believe there is a clause in NV law that says you can haul to shows/vet in surrounding counties without BI's but your supposed to have them if your moving them from county to county. Sales is a different ball game.


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## COWCHICK77

cmarie said:


> I believe there is a clause in NV law that says you can haul to shows/vet in surrounding counties without BI's but your supposed to have them if your moving them from county to county. Sales is a different ball game.


Ok, well that would explain it!


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## mildot

Thank God here in the east we don't have to deal with all that BS paperwork.

A transportation permit to take my damned property to another county? GMAB..........

I need zero paperwork to move a horse anywhere within Ohio for my own personal use on private non-commercial or public property. I need a Coggins if I take her to a show or to certain commercial trail riding places. I need a Coggins and a health cert if I go a different state.


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## COWCHICK77

LOL, yes it is a lot of paperwork!

I think maybe why it is so strict is because of cattle theft, and people who catch wild horses off the desert and haul them to the sale to make a quick buck.


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## gypsygirl

i have never even heard of a brand inspection....


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## mildot

gypsygirl said:


> i have never even heard of a brand inspection....


It's a western thing. No state that I know of east of the Mississippi requires one.


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## kevinshorses

There are some states west of the missisippi that don't require them either. In fact some of the midwestern states require them in the western half of the state but not the eastern half.


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## Skyseternalangel

Juniper said:


> Why are brand inspectors always SOOO cranky?


Mine was so delightful! We even joked around and Sky loved on him (which is REALLY rare!) 



mildot said:


> Thank God here in the east we don't have to deal with all that BS paperwork.
> 
> A transportation permit to take my damned property to another county? GMAB..........
> 
> I need zero paperwork to move a horse anywhere within Ohio for my own personal use on private non-commercial or public property. I need a Coggins if I take her to a show or to certain commercial trail riding places. I need a Coggins and a health cert if I go a different state.



Oh I'm so thankful CO had Brand Inspection. My horse isn't registered.. probably CAN'T be registered (unless I find a registry where they don't need dam and sire info LOL) and that's the only paperwork I have that proves that I own him.

I'd be heart broken if he were stolen.. though he'd put up a really good fight!

It was a very simple process. I paid around $60 for the title to the Brand, his transport brand, and transfer/gas fees to the guy. Best $60 I ever spent.
He gave my horse the look over, sketched him and included white marks (which means everywhere is red except the chestnut parts LOL) then wrote down his information, any marks, and my contact information. It was laminated and I have all the paperwork (really not that much, 3 pages maybe) and I couldn't be happier.

One day I'll get him his own passport in case he has to do overseas traveling cause I'm not leaving him ever again.


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## mildot

I don't have a problem at all with voluntary branding and brand inspections.

I do have a problem when the government tells me I can't move my personal property around without their paperwork.


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## WickedNag

I think it started with states that had open range laws. Which is why South Dakota has brand inspections west river and not east. Most states do not allow open range anymore.


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## Missy May

mildot said:


> I don't have a problem at all with voluntary branding and brand inspections.
> 
> I do have a problem when the government tells me I can't move my personal property around without their paperwork.


Brand inspection is one of those government requirements that I agree with. It protects you and your livestock. For example, if 50 head of cattle appear on your privately owned range or BLM leased range - how do you know what diseases they have much less who owns them? Or, if 50 of your cattle disappear, your only protection is - brand inspection. It is not just for horses, but it protects against theft, disease (tracability not testing wise), etc.,. It does not require a brand.


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## mildot

Missy May said:


> Brand inspection is one of those government requirements that I agree with. It protects you and your livestock.


If it's for my protection, what business is it of yours, the government, or anyone else? Don't I get a say in this?

What if I don't care for the "protection"?

My unbranded livestock causes no direct harm to you or anyone else. So what gives anyone the right to make me get it branded?

Very few things get me more riled up than government intervention in my private affairs and property.


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## smrobs

Mildot, you are missing her point. You do _not_ have to have a brand on your animal for brand inspections to be legit. They record markings and scars too. For some people, that is the only actual proof they have that they own their horse. So if your unregistered horse is stolen and the police recover it, you can actually prove that the animal is yours instead of depending on them taking you at your word.

The reason that some places still require it is antiquated, but still legitimate. Rustling was much more common in the western states than it was the eastern states. With brand inspections being required, then thieves had a harder time selling the stock that they stole.


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## Missy May

mildot said:


> If it's for my protection, what business is it of yours, the government, or anyone else? Don't I get a say in this?
> 
> What if I don't care for the "protection"?
> 
> My unbranded livestock causes no direct harm to you or anyone else. So what gives anyone the right to make me get it branded?
> 
> Very few things get me more riled up than government intervention in my private affairs and property.


Well, I am no fan of government regulation, but in this case...it is not "new" regulation, it is age old.

Like mildot said, no brand is necessary. They can go by markings alone..these days most states are going to computerization for horses, they take "all sides" color photos to save "drawing" the markings...and it is stored for easy retreival.

If you move your horses, it can affect other horses - as well as you if there is no proof of ownership required in transit. 

As mildot said, it is antiquated...and many are going to chips and tags for cattle b/c it is more effective...not necessarily required. But same "idea". Traceability may seem unimportant....until disease hits.


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## kevinshorses

Missy May said:


> As mildot said, it is antiquated...and many are going to chips and tags for cattle b/c it is more effective...not necessarily required. But same "idea". Traceability may seem unimportant....until disease hits.


Nobody is going to chips and tags for livestock. Branding is the most immediate, permanent, effective way to identify livestock. I can ride through a herd of cows with nothing but my eyes and tell what cattle belong and which ones don't. Can't do that with microchips.


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## Missy May

kevinshorses said:


> Nobody is going to chips and tags for livestock. Branding is the most immediate, permanent, effective way to identify livestock. I can ride through a herd of cows with nothing but my eyes and tell what cattle belong and which ones don't. Can't do that with microchips.


I agree w the ease of use. But, chips provide a lot more info, and are mostly used on the east coast...for now - but I doubt it will "never" come to the west. They also keeps stockyards honest.

As much as I don't like the branding process itself, there is no better way to immediately id a cow OR a horse. So, I would think - both would be the "ultimate".


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## mildot

smrobs said:


> Mildot, you are missing her point. You do _not_ have to have a brand on your animal for brand inspections to be legit. They record markings and scars too. For some people, that is the only actual proof they have that they own their horse. So if your unregistered horse is stolen and the police recover it, you can actually prove that the animal is yours instead of depending on them taking you at your word.


I understand perfectly. I refer to the act of having an inspector record identifying information as "branding".

If someone wants to do that voluntarily, more power to them.

I have a major sore about me being forced to have it if I don't deem it necessary. And even more sore about having to have such paperwork to move my property around.

It's simple libertarianism, a concept many struggle with after years of conditioning that big daddy .gov knows best.


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## mildot

Missy May said:


> Well, I am no fan of government regulation, but in this case...it is not "new" regulation, it is age old.


Being age old is no proof of being right.




Missy May said:


> If you move your horses, it can affect other horses - as well as you if there is no proof of ownership required in transit.


Really? How so? What of my other personal property should I have to prove is mine to anyone? Certainly not my firearms, since there is no registration in the state that I live.




Missy May said:


> Traceability may seem unimportant....until disease hits.


Whatever we would do in Ohio with tens of thousands of cattle and horses and no brand inspection?


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## Missy May

mildot said:


> Being age old is no proof of being right.
> 
> 
> 
> Really? How so? What of my other personal property should I have to prove is mine to anyone? Certainly not my firearms, since there is no registration in the state that I live.
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever we would do in Ohio with tens of thousands of cattle and horses and no brand inspection?


No, I agree with you - being age old doesn't mean it is "right". Brand Inspection requirements came long after branding was widely practiced. Honest self policing ones own herd (e.g., making sure your cattle and/or horses stay on your range) is fine...until it comes to transport or question of ownership. And, most ranches prefer that thier cattle can be identified as their cattle - or not. So, the BI system was devised, for all intense and purposes, to "further" the beneficial and practicle use of branding as transport and population increased.. And proof of ownership may not be required for firearms in Ohio, but in most real states anyone can carry one most everywhere - in the open....but concealed requires yet another piece of paper you have to go fetch. I don't agree w it...but I doubt Ohio "escaped" that kind of firearm law. I don't know.

You are required to prove the very vehicle you are tranporting livestock in belongs to you or that you are "authorized" to operate it. If it were not a requirement, I imagine auto and trailer theft would skyrocket - as would livestock theft. 

I don't know how they get along in Ohio without it! I find the whole state spooky! :lol: KIDDING. BI will not prevent equine disease or theft (e.g., people are rarely stopped)...it is a "measure" not a cure. 

Currently, only one of my horses is branded (not required), along w a brand inspection it ensures that if he were stolen or lost, law enforcement would easily be able to identify him and return him to me -(easier than if he were not branded, and easier if he had no BI). That is protection I prefer to have - even if its one more "freedom" I never had to begin with, gone. If your horse were stolen...how would they id them - and how much longer would it take at the taxpayer's expense?


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## tmoesky

*I have a question. We brought a horse from a state you did not need anything for it to montana 14 years ago. We never got a bi. We found out later we should have. Do you know if I could still get a fine if I tried to get a bi now?*


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## Skyseternalangel

tmoesky said:


> *I have a question. We brought a horse from a state you did not need anything for it to montana 14 years ago. We never got a bi. We found out later we should have. Do you know if I could still get a fine if I tried to get a bi now?*


A fine? I'm confused on that part. But it'll cost to get a brand inspection Not that much.. around $70 or so max.

Talk with the Brand Inspector over the phone with your questions, should get the answers you need


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## wyominggrandma

In Wyoming it costs $23 for a lifetime brand inspection. The inspector comes to the house/ranch and does it, fills out the paperwork and you hand him a check.
As far as getting a Montana inspection, just call out the brand inspector. Show him paperwork, vet bills, registration, whatever you have showing he is your horse and they will fill it out. You can get a fine for not getting a brand inspection on your horse when you bring it in now, but 14 years ago, not likely


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## tmoesky

*Thanks guys for you replys. Someone told us we could still get a fine for not having the BI done when we brought the horse into Mt. But it has been 14 yrs ago now. *


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## Joe4d

I find it laughable you guys are seem to think this government bureaucracy that is nothing more than a TAX, provides you with any protection. Protection from what ? You honestly think getting one of these done protects you from anything ? Seriously are you that naive ? Sounds like most people dont get them anyways. You pay a $70 dollar tax to some cranky government tax collector who fills out a form that says I got a brown horse just like the other 8 million brown horses. Whippty doo, my horse gets stolen tomorrow and driven a state or two away and is sold, Heck the thieves can just call a BI and get a new one anyway.

This is a horse tax, nothing more nothing less.


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## Skyseternalangel

It's peace of mind for me. I don't care about "horse tax" or whatever as long as I have some way of proving this horse belongs to me. My property. They cannot get a new BI for him because CO would tear them a new one lol.


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## Joe4d

seriously you believe that ? SO I come to CO, take your horse, drive to Montana call a BI, show him a handwritten bill of sale from Va. Say I bought him in VA, you honestly think that MT has some kinda ESP to check every BI ever done ? The fact that the horse is in my yard is proof I own him, if he gets gone most of that proof is gone with him. Horses are just not unique enough to send out an APB. An actual unique brand than can be spotted at a distance that a layman could see from a Netposse flyer may do some good. But from the way I am seeing these BI procedures described, what ever piece of mind they are providing is misguided.


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## Skyseternalangel

I can see your point, Joe.


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## wyominggrandma

I don't consider a BI a real proof of ownership if the horse is stolen. As you said, anyone can do anything.
However if I decide to take my horse across state lines and am stopped by a highway patrolman, sheriff, police or brand inspector and have no BI for the horse I am hauling, I face a STIFF fine, plus legally they can take the horse and make you pay board until the BI comes out, goes through the ownership paperwork I have and make a new BI. If the horse is found to have a brand inspection and I have not had it signed over and a new one made for ME, the new owner, then that is even more fines and more boarding costs until the line of ownership is established.
Not woth $25 to have my horse taken from me.
Course in my old age, I tend to want to not push laws and like to keep things clean and legal..Less hassle in the long run.


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## Tazmanian Devil

wyominggrandma said:


> However if I decide to take my horse across state lines and am stopped by a highway patrolman, sheriff, police or brand inspector and have no BI for the horse I am hauling, I face a STIFF fine, plus legally they can take the horse and make you pay board until the BI comes out, goes through the ownership paperwork I have and make a new BI.



I am glad someone resurrected this thread. Interesting conversation.

I am in the east. No BI. No possibility of getting one done. At some point in the future, I am considering traveling west with my horse. I can get a Coggins and health certificate - I have that anyway since I travel to various local states.

What is my responsibility when passing through or stopping in a BI state? Am I actually required to get a BI from every state I may pass through? How exactly do I do that? Do I call ahead and have an inspector meet me at a motel on the state line? 

This is a "registration" rather than a health issue. (Even on health issues, they still honor a coggins or health paper from your own state). If my state doesn't require a front license plate, I cannot be ticketed for the missing plate in a state that doesn't require one. I would like to think standard rules of honoring other state's laws/rules prevail in this case as well.

If not, it can be very tricky (and costly) for a "personal use" person deciding to take a trip west. How does this work for non-residents who are passing through or just visiting?


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## wyominggrandma

In Wyoming and I believe Utah and Idaho, you must have a brand inspection to enter the state. You can try to slip by, but if caught as I said above, you will be held.
Isn't there farms out there that sell cattle? Ship cattle to market for food? They also have to have a brand inspection to go to feed lots/slaughter houses I think. Call your state vet and ask about a brand inspection and how to get one.
If people , lets say rodeo participants, horse show participants, travelers come into Wyoming without a brand inspection, they will have problems. 
There are stops all along highways stating if you are traveling withe livestock/horses, you must pull into the insection areas and will be checked.
I was selling a horse less than 2 hours away. It was crossing a state line into Utah, going through Idaho from my state of Wyoming. I had to have a current coggins, health certificate and a brand inspection on the horse, less than two hours drive time. Not worth the fines if I got checked, which I did not
Almost any state will honor a BI from another state, just like they will honor a health certificate/coggins. However, you need to check regulations from each state you will be passing through, each state might require a test done at certain times before traveling.. Some state are really sticky, most will just be happy with coggin/health/BI. 
Every state, I beleive has brand inspectors for animals that travel out of state for feeding, working, feedlots, etc. I cant' imagine you can't get a BI for your horse to travel with. 
I spend alot of my time on the phone getting travel requirements for horse/cattle traveling out of state to other states.. We also gets lots of calls from an attending vet to find out what their client needs to come into our state. Your state will have a state vet lab with a state vet. That is where to find out your information needed.


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## whatsupdoc

I am moving from Colorado to Florida and just agreed to purchase a horse in Colorado. The subject of brand inspection came up during negotiations on price but I never pursued who would pay as it was my understanding it was only $20 or so. I just looked on the Colorado brand inspection site and for 2012 it is $275!!!!! I am calling to confirm this tomorrow, but if that is so, what is the etiquette for who pays?


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## Skyseternalangel

There is no way it's that much money.. I was there nearly a year ago and it was like $80, with transport permit included. 

I paid for the transfer since they gave me the horse. But they NEED NEED NEED to give you all their brand paperwork and you either get a letter saying that they give you ownership of the horse, or have them call and confirm. Or they will NOT approve it!

EDIT:



> A transfer form must be completed in order to add or delete a name or names to or from the recording of a current brand. The transfer fee is $50.00 per brand. All transfers of ownership on Colorado brands must be completed on the transfer form supplied by this office. You can download the transfer form from this page, or call the Denver Brand Office to have one sent to you.


From http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite/Agriculture-Main/CDAG/1176829158786

I did see where it was over $300.. which is insane, but I think that's if you are making your own brand (as in for your ranch) and need to have it registered. I'd call and make sure though, but I'm pretty darn sure you are looking just to pay the transfer fee.


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## Left Hand Percherons

Joe4d said:


> seriously you believe that ? SO I come to CO, take your horse, drive to Montana call a BI, show him a handwritten bill of sale from Va. Say I bought him in VA, you honestly think that MT has some kinda ESP to check every BI ever done ? The fact that the horse is in my yard is proof I own him, if he gets gone most of that proof is gone with him. Horses are just not unique enough to send out an APB. An actual unique brand than can be spotted at a distance that a layman could see from a Netposse flyer may do some good. But from the way I am seeing these BI procedures described, what ever piece of mind they are providing is misguided.


A brand inspector will not issue a new brand card on a horse based solely on an out of state bill of sale. There must be a paper trail that shows where the horse originated (Coggins typically). They will not accept registration papers either



Tazmanian Devil said:


> I am glad someone resurrected this thread. Interesting conversation.
> 
> I am in the east. No BI. No possibility of getting one done. At some point in the future, I am considering traveling west with my horse. I can get a Coggins and health certificate - I have that anyway since I travel to various local states.
> 
> What is my responsibility when passing through or stopping in a BI state? Am I actually required to get a BI from every state I may pass through? How exactly do I do that? Do I call ahead and have an inspector meet me at a motel on the state line?
> 
> This is a "registration" rather than a health issue. (Even on health issues, they still honor a coggins or health paper from your own state). If my state doesn't require a front license plate, I cannot be ticketed for the missing plate in a state that doesn't require one. I would like to think standard rules of honoring other state's laws/rules prevail in this case as well.
> 
> If not, it can be very tricky (and costly) for a "personal use" person deciding to take a trip west. How does this work for non-residents who are passing through or just visiting?


If you are from a non brand state traveling through (camping, showing...) to a brand state, you DO NOT need a brand inspection to enter the state. Yes you have to stop (WY and UT are the worst) often at the state line but they'll wave you through. You will have your Coggins and HC to travel. If you are from another brand state, you'd better have your paper work in order and your travel card/BI. After 30 days in one state, you are supposed to get one.




whatsupdoc said:


> I am moving from Colorado to Florida and just agreed to purchase a horse in Colorado. The subject of brand inspection came up during negotiations on price but I never pursued who would pay as it was my understanding it was only $20 or so. I just looked on the Colorado brand inspection site and for 2012 it is $275!!!!! I am calling to confirm this tomorrow, but if that is so, what is the etiquette for who pays?


This is for a BRAND. A brand inspection will run $20. It is part of the selling process and the responsibility of the SELLER.


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## Tazmanian Devil

Left Hand Percherons said:


> If you are from a non brand state traveling through (camping, showing...) to a brand state, you DO NOT need a brand inspection to enter the state. Yes you have to stop (WY and UT are the worst) often at the state line but they'll wave you through. You will have your Coggins and HC to travel. If you are from another brand state, you'd better have your paper work in order and your travel card/BI. After 30 days in one state, you are supposed to get one.


This certainly makes more sense. My own state, which doesn't have brand inspections, couldn't and wouldn't give me information on rules for other states. It would be crazy to have to contact each state on the way and obtain individual brand inspections in advance of a trip (if that was even possible).

Thanks for the tip on WY on UT. I will make sure to plan around those states on my trip west.


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## Corporal

*Don't feel bad...*

...Dh and I couldn't figure out brand inspections for YEARS! Finally, the 1st year we were at a horse camp in the Black Hills, the owners had a contact who came to their camp to do the lifetime inspection on our horses.


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## JoesMom

I live in Idaho and it does require BI. The BI is usually grumpy because people wait until the last minute to call him to set up the inspection. One guy here got a call at 3:00 am to come and do the BI on a semi load of cattle to go to the sale that morning. I also know of a couple of incidents that horses were brought back to the owner because they had a lifetime BI done that came up on the stockyard search of stolen horses. The lifetime BI has a picture on it of the horse. It also records any scars, white markings and even hair swirls if you want. When I had mine done the BI had me fill in the markings and scars myself. He then checked it and took pictures and laminated it right there. If my horse is stolen I have a card that I can show anyone that is an accepted proof of ownership in my state and the surrounding states as well.

What most people don't realize is that cattle rustling in on the rise again since cattle prices are quite high again. The local BI does a stint at the stockyards checking for stolen cattle. Our local cattlemen have had cattle show up without there calves when the range rider checks fences and troughs.

Everyone can do as they choose, but for $25 a head I have had all mine done.


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## Skyseternalangel

Left Hand Percherons said:


> A brand inspector will not issue a new brand card on a horse based solely on an out of state bill of sale. There must be a paper trail that shows where the horse originated (Coggins typically). They will not accept registration papers either


Thank you for the piece of information. I didn't know nearly all of the requirements for brand inspection as I've only had to deal with it once and it was a very good experience.


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