# Equine Color Genetics & breeding special colors



## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

Is anybody out there interested in Equine Color Genetics? I'm interested in seeing your unusually colored horses. I'm hoping we can put together a kind of knowledge base of rare colors, and observations about colors to help out with the discovery of new color genes. I'd like to see colors like Black Chestnut and Black Palomino (chestnuts who shed out to black in Spring, and palominos who shed out to black at first shed - often chocolating up at age 3 or so); silver dapple; champagne; pearl - or something you have in your back yard that nobody knows what it is - please let's see 'em and talk about them here! 

Also any information about REMNANTS of genes in subsequent generations (eg. a non-roan horse with roan ticking from two generations ago; a non-Champagne horse, with frosted mane, from a champagne predecessor; etc). If it seems unusual, or out of line with known breeding inheritance, let's talk about that!


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## Jacksmama (Jan 27, 2010)

I am extremely interested in color genetics! I have done a good bit of reading on it and although I am still pretty fuzzy on Appy and Paint patterns I have a relatively firm grasp on solid colors and the possibilities from different combinations. I know of a site that has a lot of very good material, if anyone is interested PM me.


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

I'm obsessed with horse color genetics. Best site is Equine Color Genetics | Learn to Identify Horse Colors and Learn Color Genetics, Discussion Forum, Photo Gallery

I have a LOT of colors in my herd, including many silvers (on buckskin dun, bay, black, even chestnut but of course you can't see it), ect. You can see them all on my website www.CheyAutRanch.com


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

Great website. Nicely laid out, and pretty horses too. 
I love the little shetland mare, and would be interested in buying her if I weren't living in the UK. Already done my share of importing this year!!


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

I love knowing about color genetics... also have a number of unique individuals

My Amber Cream Champange Tobiano mare. She's a 6yr old American Saddlebred 









My Bay or Black (not sure - haven't done the DNA test yet) Max. Sabino mare. She's a 6yr old Clydesdale









I will get to bring home my cremello American Saddlebred colt this fall... he's just a "run of the mill" cremello though.

I also have a pretty "run of the mill" Palomino American Saddlebred colt, 4yrs old. He goes from pale "peach" colored in the winter to a deep dappled gold coat in the spring/summer. I have to get updated shots this year still - he's got a lot more "soot" on him... this photo was Apr 15 of this year, and was his second ride under saddle


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## TinRoses (Jul 11, 2010)

ooo boy...

I have "Fathom" who's a yearling maximum white and black tovero filly who we're sure is positive for sabino and splash and most likely frame as well. She's 98% white and 2% black with one blue eye and a TON of ermine marks and cat tracks hidden across her (sometimes they only show up when she's wet). We're also 99% sure she's homozygous as she comes from heavily homozygous stock (parents are both tobiano, sire's tovero by homozygous sire and solid dam and dam is tobiano out of an unknown status tobiano sire and a solid dam) and she's also a true medicine hat!


































and

"Sedona"

who's a sorrel splash/sabino overo mare out of a splash/sabino crop out AQHA sire and an overo dam (presumably splash/sabino/frame as I've never seen a photo of her) we're almost positive she's homozygous for sabino and most likely splash since her dam's side has a TON of Splash. She's also starting to roan out EVERYWHERE. IE: white hairs scattered all over her body. However I think this may just be sabino ticking as there's no real roan in her pedigree anywhere close up front. We also are pretty sure she carries the frame gene as well, if she doesn't she's the weirdest marked splash/sabino I've EVER seen. The two photos of her left side are of her from March when I first got her so pardon her lack of muscle/condition and the rest are from June... And I think she may be in foal:


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Neat markings on both of them!


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## TinRoses (Jul 11, 2010)

hehe thank you. They're the whole package: great conformation, great temperament, amazing pedigree, and awesomesauce color! <3 my ponies.


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

*Riding well*



... this photo was Apr 15 of this year said:


> http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n225/riosbravo/Finlay/Ap15/P4152850sm.jpg[/IMG]


Hey that palomino is traveling in a very nice outline for a second ride!


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## TheLastUnicorn (Jun 11, 2010)

Thank you... he's a great horse, and very willing to try for people, and extremely intelligent. We haven't put a lot of work on him because he keeps growing on us, and with his intelligence it'd be really easy to push him too fast.


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

TheLastUnicorn said:


> Thank you... he's a great horse, and very willing to try for people, and extremely intelligent. We haven't put a lot of work on him because he keeps growing on us, and with his intelligence it'd be really easy to push him too fast.


That sounds very wise. When I was barrel racing, my trainer wouldn't allow me to let anybody else ride my horse. He used to say the work we put in him was carefully thought out, and took many repetitions for him to 'get' ... and what it took us hours to put in, someone else could take out in just a few minutes! Must be even more true of a young horse, I guess.


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

yeah i love equine genetics! my fave rare colour is probable sable cream dun which is black + agouti + champagne + cream + dun!
so basically amber champagne with cream and dun genes too!


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

speedy da fish said:


> yeah i love equine genetics! my fave rare colour is probable sable cream dun which is black + agouti + champagne + cream + dun!
> so basically amber champagne with cream and dun genes too!


Sounds very pretty. I'm not a big fan of the Agouti gene, myself. But I think there are forms of black that are not subject to it, as in Friesians, and Welsh Cobs - they definitely have some kind of dominant black thing going on there. I wish they'd get on and 'discover' it - so I can figure out where it comes from, and how to control it!


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

not a fan?! so you don't like bays? 

anyway here is a pic of a sable cream dun










and a black silver dun









yes you a right, a true black horse is dominant black, not to do with agouti gene. dominant black causes black pigment (red and black) and the agouti gene only controls/ limits it. Which is why get variations of bay.


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

*Pretty colors!*



TheLastUnicorn said:


> Thank you... he's a great horse, and very willing to try for people, and extremely intelligent. We haven't put a lot of work on him because he keeps growing on us, and with his intelligence it'd be really easy to push him too fast.





speedy da fish said:


> not a fan?! so you don't like bays?
> 
> anyway here is a pic of a sable cream dun
> 
> ...


OOOH - now that's what I'm talkin' bout! What byootiful babies! I shouldn't say I don't like bays - because I like buckskins, etc - the whole points thing - it's just that I don't like that Agouti (A) is dominant over black (EE) and can turn a homozygous black horse into a bay. The only way to breed blacks, is to eliminate Agouti altogether. Or to find a dominant black that comes from a locus OTHER than E. Like, maybe a variant of B/b or K (as in dogs). Am I losing you here?


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

B and K doesn't exist in horses. Just E for black. Very easy to avoid bays if you know the genetics of the particular horses, which is only $25 to see if they have agouti or not (in chestnuts for example, since it would be obvious on a bay horse haha, but will tell you if the bay is homozygous agouti or not)


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

CheyAut said:


> B and K doesn't exist in horses. Just E for black. Very easy to avoid bays if you know the genetics of the particular horses, which is only $25 to see if they have agouti or not (in chestnuts for example, since it would be obvious on a bay horse haha, but will tell you if the bay is homozygous agouti or not)


B and K have not been DISCOVERED in horses. One can not assume that everything that has not been discovered in the world therefore does not exist. We are at the very early stages of mapping horse DNA and, with respect, there is much more that we DON'T know ... than there is that we do know. For instance, how does a chestnut horse ee _(no black gene whatsoever)_ get a black mane and tail? Not possible - but it happens all the time, and we don't know why. 

It has been considered, by some researchers, that all horses are actually homozygous for B - which is the indicator for black skin - which is why it is not listed among the known locii.

This is my ee chestnut mare. She has no black gene at the E locus. There is definitely dominant black _somewhere_ in horses, and it sure looks like it ain't at the E locus.


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

*Agouti Test*

Also, testing a horse for Agouti does not tell you whether it is A+, A, or At. It's not always obvious, because a horse with A/At will appear as a bay horse, but you don't know he can produce brown (or nearly black). There is also debate as to whether brown is actually entirely caused at the A locus, or whether there are other factors in play. Since Pet DNA services keeps the test procedure secret - nobody knows how they test for brown, except them. There are a lot of black horses in brown lines. If you study pedigrees, this becomes apparent very quickly. Look at the Morgan breed, too - where browns, livers and blacks are more prevalent (probably descended from Welsh Cob). 

This brown stallion, (At a E e) was registered as a bay. But his 'a' gene came from a liver chestnut horse - so he only gave liver and brown. 90% of his foals were darker than his red mares 10% were the same red shade as his mares, and zero foals were lighter than his mares. There's so much we don't know about how Agouti series may affect the shade of red - and what effect the presence of other unknown modifiers might have.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

The dark on chestnuts with no black can be explained by sooty or counter shading. My chestnut mare has a black tail and a very soft faint wide dorsel stripe. It's classic characteristic of counter shading, and your mare is a classic example of sooty.

A buckskin with sooty:










There are classic and almost infamous examples of sooty completely altering the color of a horse so as to swear it was bay or black without genetic testing.


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

*Sooty gene theory*



MacabreMikolaj said:


> ^
> 
> The dark on chestnuts with no black can be explained by sooty or counter shading. My chestnut mare has a black tail and a very soft faint wide dorsel stripe. It's classic characteristic of counter shading, and your mare is a classic example of sooty.
> 
> ...


Yes, I know a lot of people accept that. But not all sooty horses shed out to absolute black every Spring. My black palomino mare, for example, had to be tested twice to come up with any chestnut result at all - and even then, it was a very weak result. Would that be caused by sooty? Sooty is just a theory like everything else. There is no test for sooty, and it can't be proven or disproven. At the moment Sooty is just a label we give in an effort to lump things that seem alike to us into a category. When we get more educated, we begin to break those labels down into new categories, and subcategories, according to how the individuals in that group differ from the other individuals in that group. Then it takes generations to discover whether we can reliably reproduce those characteristics, and we observe the pattern of emergence to discover inheritance traits. It is only THEN that the geneticists sit down and try to pinpoint what breeders have already discovered. We must not get set in the idea that what we think we know today is all that will ever be known about anything. We are in the infant stages of horse color genetics and we know much less than what we DON'T know. That's why it's important to gather as many observations as possible, and keep an open mind. When I refer to black chestnut, or black palomino I mean that these horses have specific pattern of characteristics that are similar to each other ... and distinctly different to to other horses that can appear to be like them. Some horses have dapply sooty. Some have evenly spread over the back and neck - is it the same? Some is caused by seasonal changes - is that the same? Some palominos shed to absolute black at first shed, some chestnuts shed to black or purple every spring, is that the same? And at least in Lace's case - genetic testing does not give a clear, strong, satisfactory, result. Also sooty does not, traditionally, cover the soft points or the muzzle. Thanks for the picture of your beautiful mare - I agree with you that her coloring DOES appear to be caused by evenly and distributed sooty. My stallion has similar shading, but it's not at all the same as Ruby's coat. Sooty does not fade in the sun. Ruby bleaches out to burgundy. By the way, what breed is your mare? She's very pretty. Her muzzle is very pale, and could indicate the presence of At (brown). Looks like a seal brown, actually! I'm glad you sent this - because I'm surprised her genetic results came back as chestnut! Very interesting, Thanks!! Notice there doesn't actually appear to be any red in her coat - is this always the case, or does she turn reddish at certain times of the year? Very cool!


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

LilacsGirl said:


> OOOH - now that's what I'm talkin' bout! What byootiful babies! I shouldn't say I don't like bays - because I like buckskins, etc - the whole points thing - it's just that I don't like that Agouti (A) is dominant over black (EE) and can turn a homozygous black horse into a bay. The only way to breed blacks, is to eliminate Agouti altogether. Or to find a dominant black that comes from a locus OTHER than E. Like, maybe a variant of B/b or K (as in dogs). Am I losing you here?


yeah but im all for variety too, there is an abundance of bays (especially here-uk) but if agouti is bred out there will be an abundance of black, i spose it is taste. i do love black horse though


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

*Agouti control*



speedy da fish said:


> yeah but im all for variety too, there is an abundance of bays (especially here-uk) but if agouti is bred out there will be an abundance of black, i spose it is taste. i do love black horse though


Hiya Speedy, Agouti would never be bred out because it is so prevalent in chestnuts. As soon as you breed an Agouti chestnut to a black - BANG there's that bay again! The most you could hope for is one or two isolated lines (or studs) where the Agouti gene is carefully controlled by selection. Then you would have a chance to breed some nice blacks (and livers). But I definitely agree with you - variety is the spice of life!!


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Very interesting LilacsGirl!

I do apologize though - that was not a photo of my mare. I was just showing her as an example of a sooty buckskin.

But if you want, maybe you can have fun with my girls. My Arab mare seems very straight forward - she's just a chestnut, right? But from her tail being black and her broad dorsel type stripe, she seems to have sooty. From her big splashy blaze, I've had people tell me she's sabino. From her white ticking and slightly white tail base, I've been told she has rabicano. Feel free to decipher! She's just a chestnut to me, but it's interesting. I can also post a pic of her VERY plain bay dam (star and small white coronet band) and her sire was black, I know zero more then that (every possibility he could have carried rabicano or sabino, I never saw a pic of him either).

My mare's dam:









My mare:








Shows her tail turning black halfway down









Closeup of her blaze (yes, it smudges like paint over her right eye)









Picture in summer

I can't seem to find anything that shows her white ticking or white tail tuft - that's how unnoticable it is. I could definitely take pics - she just has this white hairs scattered all over her body, mostly concentrated to the back half of her body (stomach, hindquarters).

I also have this tovero filly who makes me shake my head - she's obviously black (both parents were black), I would think, and yet her flank spots fade to this murky light brown color while her head ALWAYS stays black, it never fades.

The pain of it? On camera, her flank patches always come out black as black or close to black. I can't get a camera to show how swampy brown they are. Any idea what would cause that?

Doesn't show well, but you can see how her head is PITCH black and yet her flanks are a "dark bay" color - in reality, they were crazy faded in this photo:










AHA!!!! This picture KIND of shows it:









You can see her head is totally black and her flank patch is faded - and this is only spring. It changes color constantly and seems to have nothing to do with the actual sun. Although this summer it's looking extra faded.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Color genetics is always neat. I'm not sure what gene he has, but my aunt owns a stallion, who is a registered palomino, Tobiano Paint. He has had numerous foals as people like to breed to him because of his color & looks (his pedigree isn't bad but it's based mainly on showing lines, not alot of competition). He doesn't always throw a paint (i was sorely dissipointed when my own filly by him came out solid ) but it is never a problem to determine what color the baby will be. He has yet to fail in diluting a mare's color.
For ex: when he's bred to a chestnut (liverchestnut, NOT sorrel color) you get a palomino. When he's bred to a brown horse (or black bay) you get either a dun or buckskin. When bred to a bay, you will have a buckskin foal. When he's bred to a black mare you get either a brown or a grulla & when he's bred to another palomino he throws either palomino or cremello.
Pretty neat hey! And as i said it has NEVER failed in the 15 years he's been a stud. The only color that doesn't change is sorrel-chestnut. So i knew that when i bred him to my mare (brown) that i was going to get a buckskin & sure enough, 11 months later there she was!
I'm not sure how he'd do if bred to a mare with a homozygous (think i spelt that wrong) color, but it would be interesting to see. My aunt owns a mare who's homozygous for the red dun gene but she has yet to try the two together.


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## CloudsMystique (Mar 3, 2009)

Here's my unusual horse...




























Two blue eyes, a star, a huge snip, and a partial pastern. Her snip is very jagged and uneven around her muzzle. She has no white anywhere else. She tested negative for sabino.


Her dam has a stripe/thin blaze and no leg white:










Her sire is black without a single white hair:












You can see photos of her ancestors here: Clouds Mystique W Missouri Fox Trotter (hover over "Reports" and click on "Photos")

I don't see any obvious frames or splashes in there - do you? I see a few sabinos, though. (BTW - somebody screwed up and there are a few horses that don't belong there... ignore Balladier, Noor, Krack C, and Goodtimes. The rest are correct.)

Mystique has a full-brother with the EXACT same markings as her, except his star and snip are more connected than hers. He even has the same partial pastern on the same leg. I wish I had a picture of him.

This is her other full sibling: Princess Aida W., foxtrotter for sale in Florida

None of her 100+ half-siblings have blue eyes that I know of (and I've done extensive research on the subject).










I also have a palomino who I think *might *be champagne. He has light eyes and is completely covered in freckles except for his muzzle and around his eyes. Even there, the skin looks greyish instead of black. I've seen some proven champagnes who have so many freckles around their muzzle and eyes that they look black.

His sire is bay and his dam has a palomino base coat, although she grayed out so it's possible nobody noticed she was champagne until it was too late.










This is what the rest of his body looks like (when wet):









I'm going to go ahead and test him for champagne when I have some extra cash laying around : ]


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

I would say nope, not champagne. Freckling is very common with palominos.


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

*Hi MIkola*



MacabreMikolaj said:


> Very interesting LilacsGirl!
> 
> I do apologize though - that was not a photo of my mare. I was just showing her as an example of a sooty buckskin.
> 
> ...


The interesting thing about all chestnuts with black tails is that a chestnut, technically - should not be able to display black hair AT ALL. It's bull to attribute this to the 'sooty' gene, because sooty doesn't just attack manes and tails, and leave the rest of the horse red! Obviously your mare has SOME kind of black gene ... or she couldn't display black, since chestnut is completely recessive. So where does that black tail come from, I wonder. Don't you think that's interesting? 

If the tovero is black - and I agree the head is an excellent indicator - the appearance of bay is most likely due to sun bleaching. I had a black horse who looked bay in the summer, and his tail even reddened in the late summer from bleaching out. But the head is a good indicator of black. My guy's head never bleached out either. This is called fading black, and at the moment, I think it's probably caused by the normal E gene, crossed with a normal chestnut gene (even from two black parents, unless they are homozygous -you spelled it right! - each parent probably carried a chestnut gene). However, when you cross that E black with Liver, or black chestnut, I believe THAT is what causes NON-fading black - where there is very little or no sun bleaching. I think it's USUAL for black horses to fade to brown or bay in the summer. Definitely doesn't mean he's not black. 

You have pretty horses! 
Lilacs


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

lilruffian said:


> Color genetics is always neat. I'm not sure what gene he has, but my aunt owns a stallion, who is a registered palomino, Tobiano Paint. He has had numerous foals as people like to breed to him because of his color & looks (his pedigree isn't bad but it's based mainly on showing lines, not alot of competition). He doesn't always throw a paint (i was sorely dissipointed when my own filly by him came out solid ) but it is never a problem to determine what color the baby will be. He has yet to fail in diluting a mare's color.
> For ex: when he's bred to a chestnut (liverchestnut, NOT sorrel color) you get a palomino. When he's bred to a brown horse (or black bay) you get either a dun or buckskin. When bred to a bay, you will have a buckskin foal. When he's bred to a black mare you get either a brown or a grulla & when he's bred to another palomino he throws either palomino or cremello.
> Pretty neat hey! And as i said it has NEVER failed in the 15 years he's been a stud. The only color that doesn't change is sorrel-chestnut. So i knew that when i bred him to my mare (brown) that i was going to get a buckskin & sure enough, 11 months later there she was!
> I'm not sure how he'd do if bred to a mare with a homozygous (think i spelt that wrong) color, but it would be interesting to see. My aunt owns a mare who's homozygous for the red dun gene but she has yet to try the two together.


It's difficult to arrive at solid conclusions as to what will result with color crosses. In order to say what a stallion is likely to produce with a particular color, it would be ideal to have bred him to at least 5 mares of this color - and even then, they would have to be of the same Agouti combination - depending whether the mare is Aa (single Agouti); AA (homozygous Agouti) or aaee - which MIGHT be liver or not, depending on other unknown gene sequences; etc. To say "when he is bred to a chestnut, you get X" is not scientific enough to deliver a accurate predictions. While your observations are certainly interesting, they would probably not be conclusive, unless the mares were in a genetically controlled group. 

It is Very interesting about the gray skin, and the freckles, and I would not write off some kind of Champagne remnant . INTERESTINGLY, I also have a palomino colt with gray skin and a mad shine - don't know if he has freckles - but he is DEFINITELY carrying some kind of sheen gene! Maybe single dilute Pearl - we don't know a lot about this one yet, except that it shows up on Balitor (google him as "Balitor Pearl gene"). It sounds likely you may have something special there! Does he have any Morgan horse in his distant pedigree? I'm VERY glad to learn about the gray skinned palomino - you are not alone!!


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

CloudsMystique said:


> Here's my unusual horse...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry - I actually sent your gray skinned palomino reply to the wrong person. I am very interested about your palomino - and would definitely NOT write off some kind of champagne remnant, or other "sheen gene' - I also have a gray skinned palomino colt with a mad shine to him ... very unusual; looks impossible when you look at him. He outshines my champagne mare any day of the week! I'm exhausted now (long day) but would like to talk to you some more about this. 

Your black horse is INCREDIBLE! How exciting! 
ThANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SENDING THESE PIX


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

lilruffian said:


> Color genetics is always neat. I'm not sure what gene he has, but my aunt owns a stallion, who is a registered palomino, Tobiano Paint. He has had numerous foals as people like to breed to him because of his color & looks (his pedigree isn't bad but it's based mainly on showing lines, not alot of competition). He doesn't always throw a paint (i was sorely dissipointed when my own filly by him came out solid ) but it is never a problem to determine what color the baby will be. He has yet to fail in diluting a mare's color.
> For ex: when he's bred to a chestnut (liverchestnut, NOT sorrel color) you get a palomino. When he's bred to a brown horse (or black bay) you get either a dun or buckskin. When bred to a bay, you will have a buckskin foal. When he's bred to a black mare you get either a brown or a grulla & when he's bred to another palomino he throws either palomino or cremello.
> Pretty neat hey! And as i said it has NEVER failed in the 15 years he's been a stud. The only color that doesn't change is sorrel-chestnut. So i knew that when i bred him to my mare (brown) that i was going to get a buckskin & sure enough, 11 months later there she was!
> I'm not sure how he'd do if bred to a mare with a homozygous (think i spelt that wrong) color, but it would be interesting to see. My aunt owns a mare who's homozygous for the red dun gene but she has yet to try the two together.


It's just sheer luck that he's always passed on his dilute gene. A palomino is just a chestnut horse with one copy of the creme gene, so he has a 50/50 shot at passing on creme to his foals. He also doesn't carry the dun gene, so it would be impossible for him to produce a grulla when bred to a black mare or a dun when bred to a brown or bay mare (buckskin is caused by creme, dun is not). The mare would have to be carrying dun in order for either of those colours to be possible.
His genetics would be ee ?? dd CcrC, meaning he is red based, possibly carrying agouti, not carrying dun, & heterozygous for creme.
Your aunt's red dun mare's genetics are ee ?? DD CC, meaning she's red based, possibly carrying agouti, homozygous for dun, & not carrying creme. Any foal from that cross will be a red based dun, possibly a dunskin if the stallion passes on creme.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

sorry, I meant DUNALINO, not dunskin.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

Anyone wanna have a go at my girl? i'm not sure on basecoat but i assume buckskin, or chesnut, maybe sabino? rabicano? or roaning.. still not sure yet. she has a half bald face, and high jagged stockings on her rear legs, at some point the white splotches go so high to connect to the white spotches on her udder's. i originally thought maybe she was mixed with appaloosa, but she has no mottling so i assume something spotted? she's at least half mustang, and not sure what else is in there = )
pictures!
Dry pictures.
















strange freckling like the palomino from the page before. so possibly palomino?
















as you can see the freckling is mainly on the base of her legs, on all 4 legs and on the base of her neck and chest
















wet horsie









































what do you guys think??


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

I'd say she's definitely sabino. Buckskin would be my first colour guess, especially because of the black on her knees & hocks. She's really pretty!


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

LilacsGirl said:


> The interesting thing about all chestnuts with black tails is that a chestnut, technically - should not be able to display black hair AT ALL. It's bull to attribute this to the 'sooty' gene, because sooty doesn't just attack manes and tails, and leave the rest of the horse red! Obviously your mare has SOME kind of black gene ... or she couldn't display black, since chestnut is completely recessive. So where does that black tail come from, I wonder. Don't you think that's interesting?
> 
> If the tovero is black - and I agree the head is an excellent indicator - the appearance of bay is most likely due to sun bleaching. I had a black horse who looked bay in the summer, and his tail even reddened in the late summer from bleaching out. But the head is a good indicator of black. My guy's head never bleached out either. This is called fading black, and at the moment, I think it's probably caused by the normal E gene, crossed with a normal chestnut gene (even from two black parents, unless they are homozygous -you spelled it right! - each parent probably carried a chestnut gene). However, when you cross that E black with Liver, or black chestnut, I believe THAT is what causes NON-fading black - where there is very little or no sun bleaching. I think it's USUAL for black horses to fade to brown or bay in the summer. Definitely doesn't mean he's not black.
> 
> ...


It's very normal for chestnuts to have some black in their manes/tails.

If you're saying Ee is a fading black vs EE, you're incorrect. Many EE horses fade, including the Friesian I had (RIP)


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

CloudsMystique said:


> Here's my unusual horse...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would say Mystique has splash. That would cause the eyes and the big snip in the shape of a rain drop. Splash cause heavy face white on the muzzle that dwindles smaller as it goes farther up the nose.


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

WOAH!!! That's the kind of stuff I was hoping to get! Whoopie that's great!
I'm gonna say sooty buckskin paint with possible sabino gene ... anybody care to expand ??? This is gonna be FUN! Thanks for submitting this one - she's wonderful!


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

Yes, it's VERY normal for chestnuts to have black manes and tails. But genetically, how is it possible. What we think we know about Agouti and the Extension factor does not explain WHY it happens. ee means the horse HAS NO BLACK gene. It can not have a black mane and tail - but it does, all the time. 

I agree - and no, I am NOT saying it's caused by EE. I'm saying it MAY be caused by whatever causes black chestnut - we don't really know what causes black chestnut, but it doesn't appear to be caused by E - because black chestnuts are supposed to be ee. Yet they are almost completely black. There must be something else that causes black that we haven't found yet. That's what I'm saying.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

hehe yeah she's a toughie! let me know if you need more pictures or angles or anythings, i pretty much have every possible angle, as i've been trying to figure out her color for a loooong time now. buckskin would definitely explain the white bits on her mane and tail known as "frosting", and her mane and tail isn't exactly black but it's a deep steel grey under all the red looking hair i also edited pics darker to show exactly how her spots and splotching really is.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

^^ You should test her.. for everything! lol


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i totally would! but every spare bit of money i have laying around goes towards helping my parents pay for feed, or replacing my own tack, or buying school supplies and school clothes lol i would also need a good idea on what exactly to test her for lol


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Aw that's too bad. Mysteries are fun though


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

Oh! I love genetics! 


Loki here is registered as a 'Sorrel Roan and White/Sabino' which is... incorrect! He's actually a true SABINO Roan, meaning he's not a TRUE roan. 

In the winter he's solid brown, with his white markings. No 'roan' in sight  


Loki:









Sire, he has the strangest band going around all of his markings:









Dam is a minimally marked Bay Sabino. She has a blaze, milk chin, and ragged socks. Some very minimal 'roaning' in her coat. 

Siblings:
















He also has a minimal Black Tobiano sister, and a Black Roan Sabino brother. He was a real cuddle bug as well. 


I have better pics here somewhere, I just don't have the time to upload them at the moment!

Loki doesn't have very fancy papers. His Great-Great Grandfathers on the sires side are Zane Grey and Missouri Traveler E. On the dam's side, the only one I recognize his Red Rawhide. No idea what his Grandparents looked like, I can't seem to find anything on them.


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

*Loki is lovely!*



twogeldings said:


> Oh! I love genetics!
> 
> 
> Loki here is registered as a 'Sorrel Roan and White/Sabino' which is... incorrect! He's actually a true SABINO Roan, meaning he's not a TRUE roan.
> ...


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

I believe what she means is that Sabino causes white flecking, or "roaning", throughout the coat that is often mistaken for true Roan, even though the horse is not carrying the Roan gene. You CAN have a horse that carries both genes, but her horse only carries the Sabino gene. They are both a mutation of the same gene, called the KIT gene. This is also the same gene that causes Dominant White and Tobiano (but not Rabicano, Splash, or Frame).


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

*TRUE sabino*



Quixotic said:


> I believe what she means is that Sabino causes white flecking, or "roaning", throughout the coat that is often mistaken for true Roan, even though the horse is not carrying the Roan gene. You CAN have a horse that carries both genes, but her horse only carries the Sabino gene. They are both a mutation of the same gene, called the KIT gene. This is also the same gene that causes Dominant White and Tobiano (but not Rabicano, Splash, or Frame).


Thanks, Quixotic, for explaining that. So I take it, if it's possible the horse can carry both genes - that they're not found at the same locus - even tho they are both mutations of the same gene? That's amazing. Does that mean there's a Roan locus - and a Sabino locus; rather than a KIT locus? And the same with Rabicano, Splash and Frame - all different locii? I wonder how many more we still haven't discovered! White pattern genetics are a whole new world for me. 

I wonder if Pearl and Palomino are located at the same locus. Some folks think they are; which would mean a Pearl Palomino would have to get one of the genes from each parent. Fascinating stuff. Thanks again -
Lilacs.


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## Quixotic (May 22, 2009)

Peal is a variation of creme, & creme causes palomino, so yes, they are related. Pearl will only express itself if the horse is either homozygous for the gene or carrying another creme gene - it won't show up if there's a pearl gene paired with a non-creme gene.

Rabicano, Splash, & Frame are all their own separate genes.

Like with all other genes, a horse can get 1 KIT gene from mom & 1 from dad. However, I know inheritance with this is a bit tricky. I can't remember which locii tend to stick together, so I really can't give you much information on that. But I do know that, for example, you will never ever see a roan homozygous tobiano, because that would mean the horse had 3 different KIT genes, which is impossible.

This is a really informative article that explains Sabino 1 & all the different variations of Dominant White.
http://duncentralstation.com/PDF/KITGeneMutations-Castle.pdf


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

Hi and thanks for that. It's very helpful - I haven't read the article yet, but will get onto that in a little while. 

Yes, they say Pearl only expresses itself in the presence of creme or another Pearl gene. However, although pearl doesn't DILUTE except in those circumstances, there is now evidence that in its single form, it can give the shine - regardless of the presence of creme. Here is Balitor - a tested single Pearl carrier. Cool, eh?


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## twogeldings (Aug 11, 2008)

LilacsGirl said:


> twogeldings said:
> 
> 
> > Oh! I love genetics!
> ...


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

twogeldings said:


> LilacsGirl said:
> 
> 
> > Oh I LOVE the Pearl gene! I had a rabbit doe that carried one copy of Pearl and she just glowed  She was solid white with a tiny blue bit on the nose and her coat was a beautiful translucent metallic. Pearl in rabbits manifests itself extraordinarily similar to horses when it comes to shine.
> ...


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## CheyAut (Nov 26, 2008)

Guess I'll add my unusual colored horse... Classic Silver (silver and champagne on black) appy mare


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## maggiesshowjumping (Jan 3, 2013)

I have spent a lot of time studying color coat genetics. I would be happy to answer any questions you have. however, there is no such thing as a black chestnut. the E gene controls if thehorse is capable of making black hair, if it is ee then it is chestnut, if it is Ee or EE then it is black. the A gene controls if the black hair is restricted to the points, this makes a bay. I hate to burst your bubble, it would be cool to have horses that change colors like that, but it just dosnt exist. I do love the creme and dun genes though!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

maggiesshowjumping said:


> I have spent a lot of time studying color coat genetics. I would be happy to answer any questions you have. however, there is no such thing as a black chestnut. the E gene controls if thehorse is capable of making black hair, if it is ee then it is chestnut, if it is Ee or EE then it is black. the A gene controls if the black hair is restricted to the points, this makes a bay. I hate to burst your bubble, it would be cool to have horses that change colors like that, but it just dosnt exist. I do love the creme and dun genes though!


This thread is over two years old. If the OP is still here, I am sure they would have posted other threads to ask their questions before now.

Also, black chestnut is a term used for really dark chestnuts, mostly in the Morgan breed. Like this guy:


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm sure his breeder wont mind if I share the picture she took of my boy.
This is Viking. He's a Gra Dun Fjord.










I'm super interested in color genetics, I love reading the color experts take on colors


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## Merlot (Sep 12, 2012)

It's funny, you Americans seem to have so many different names for colours - we tend (although I bet it is changing) to stick to the colours chestnut -(liver, bright or flaxen mane and tail), Palomino, Bay (red, brown or bright), Dun, Buckskin, black, cremello etc. I'd never heard of champagne (except as something I like to drink) before coming to this site. Anyhow here is my boy Zephyr (buckskin) who most of you must be getting sick of by now - does he count? :shock:


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Cant get enough of that little dude. cripes hes cute


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## LilacsGirl (Jul 14, 2010)

*Black Chestnut*



maggiesshowjumping said:


> I have spent a lot of time studying color coat genetics. I would be happy to answer any questions you have. however, there is no such thing as a black chestnut. the E gene controls if thehorse is capable of making black hair, if it is ee then it is chestnut, if it is Ee or EE then it is black. the A gene controls if the black hair is restricted to the points, this makes a bay. I hate to burst your bubble, it would be cool to have horses that change colors like that, but it just dosnt exist. I do love the creme and dun genes though!


Yes, that's all well and good. However, a chestnut horse - that is, ee, as you say should not be able to have ANY black hairs at all. It has (as you say) NO BLACK mechanism. At all. So ... no black manes and tails, and certainly not this:









Yet ... here we are. A chestnut who is nearly completely black. Calling it liver doesn't make it not black. Just saying. You can call it whatever you like. It is covered with black hair.


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