# Immigration?



## mudpie (Jul 15, 2011)

Hello,

In my U.S. history class, my teacher asked us to write a short essay on immigration views in the U.S., specifically on today's views versus the the views in the early 1900s. We're comparing these views to the Sacco/Vanzetti case, which took place in 1927, in any way we'd like.

However, I do not feel that I am educated enough on this subject to form an opinion. My teacher said that I could compare these previous views to the views of the U.S. government, but I don't know a lot about that, either. I'm really not opinionated, and I honestly am not educated enough to _have_ an opinion. So... what are your views on U.S. immigration? On immigration itself, on the policies therein, etc.?

Your personal opinions, the ideas backing them up, etc. would be much appreciated! 

Thanks!


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

the US government has no interest in adressing immigration. They are only interested in using excuses to create a police state by hiring more and more armed federal militias.
Seriously why do immigrants come here illegally ? 
To get jobs, 
Who's giving them the jobs ?
Americans.

If the fed really wanted to stop illegal immigration, we dont need fences, or drones, or border patrol with machine guns and thermal scopes. 
We need to lock up the Americans giving them jobs. Any business that hires them has all business assets confiscated and sold at auction. I am talking severe life changing penalties. And that includes the homeowners turning a blind eye to the cheap carpet installers and landscapers. They are to blame as well. No jobs no immigrants.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Geeze Joe, where did the OP say anything about illegal immigration? Oh that's right, she didn't!

As far as 'taking jobs away from Americans', what a crock! The illegals do the jobs so many Americans think are beneath them. I say if you want to pick fruits and vegetables in the blazing hot sun for less than minimum wage, nobody's stopping you. You can also quit your day job and work fast food or do hard manual labor for a pittance. Go ahead, tell me again what GREAT opportunities the illegals are taking from Americans.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Joe the US is NOT China. Our governments goal is not to control its population by a show of force, we do not live in a police state.
The federal government is solely responsible for immigration, Not the local municipalities, or states, The federal government is.
Immigrants has arrived on our shores long before we were independent and have added to the vitality this country enjoys.
Most undocumented workers that I know work 2-3 jobs and pay cash for cars, electronics, thereby adding greatly to our economy. Shalom


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> Most undocumented workers that I know work 2-3 jobs and pay cash for cars, electronics, thereby adding greatly to our economy. Shalom


Most bank robbers use the stolen money to purchase cars, electronics, etc.

Not sure I understand your point DB :think:

.


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## Nightside (Nov 11, 2012)

My husbands grandparents are illegal, and they lived the American dream. They started out doing manual labor and now own a construction company that a lot of the extended, legal family works for. I've hired illegals to do a few odd jobs and they are honest and hard working. When we lived in a downtown area, they'd give me a hand if I was trying to do.something difficult in the yard and they didn't ask for anything. They just thought helping was the right thing to do. Many people of my age and race can't even be bothered to hold a door open for someone. Besides, unless you're 100% native American, you're an immigrant, too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

While I have rather strong views on illegal immigration, that is not the OP's question.

From what I can remember of history, immigrants from familiar countries - England & Germany - were always welcomed. There was a lot of open space to fill in. Immigrants from unfamiliar countries, or whose lack of skills meant they weren't very useful to society - the Irish, or Chinese - were hated. "No Irish Need Apply" signs were common, and the Chinese were barred from citizenship for many years.

Most countries have strictly controlled immigration and access to citizenship to A) improve their society's set of skills and B) keep their society fairly homogeneous. Mexico, for example, doesn't allow unlimited immigration across its southern border. Switzerland has strict laws governing citizenship. Japan despises outsiders. It has a very homogeneous population and it wants to keep it that way. And that isn't all bad. Commit a crime in Japan, and your neighbor will probably turn you in.

Contrary to public service announcements, those goals are not evil. Most countries have a population with shared values. If you allow unlimited immigration from other cultures, you lose that cultural unity. London is increasingly shaped by sharia law, not English common law. I think that is a big minus for England.

In the 60s, America made the decision - or the government did without consulting the populace - that immigration should focus on allowing the poor and unskilled to enter. We also turned a blind eye to uncontrolled immigration from Mexico. And there has been almost no focus on assimilation - allowing time for the newcomers to become a part of AMERICAN culture. My sister worked in Tucson trying to help Somali immigrants learn, for example, that a man doesn't have the right to beat up a woman who questions him. 

I think that is a serious mistake, but no one in government cares. We've turned into a tribal form of government, with tribes that consist of artificial groups manipulating government for goodies or power. Instead of a melting pot, we've become a tray with separate spots for each type of food. That has destroyed the idea of a common American culture and American values, and thus America has become something I find hard to recognize. Political life in America is starting to resemble Afghanistan more than historic America. Political discussion has largely ceased being about IDEAS and become discussions of white men vs black women, or hispanics vs blacks vs asians vs whites vs whoever. We tend to mock Afghanistan for having warring tribes, but we seem to be following their example.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

For those with a legal interest, here is what Wiki has on the case mentioned by the OP:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacco_and_Vanzetti

Also see:

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/SaccoV/fulleropinion.html

It is important to remember that Europe and America were having some serious problems caused by anarchists. There was at least one Sherlock Holmes story written with anarchists as the main evil, and a number of others that touched on it. It is also helpful to remember that the American legal system of the 1920s was a much more antagonistic style system than today. There was no such thing as 'discovery' and sharing information. It wasn't unheard of for both the defense and prosecutor to try to manufacture or hide evidence. In one of the first Perry Mason shows, Perry Mason fires extra bullets into a post to confuse the police and DA about where the real bullets fired during the murder came from. That wouldn't have been to odd a thing to happen in the 1920s or 30s.

A defendant's political beliefs can still influence how lawyers approach a trial. In the Ruby Ridge trial, IIRC, the daughter wasn't put on the stand by the defense for fear she would make racist statements that would bias the jury against her father.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I have a very strong view on illegal immigration as well, but it's not a question in a topic, so lets not start a discussion here whether you agree with it or disagree (if someone wants to starts a new thread on it you are very welcome to do so in "Politics").

I can't tell much about the immigration in the past, but I do know quite a bit about current system. At the moment you can immigrate through the relatives, through the job, or as a refugee/asylee. There is also so-called "green card lottery" (when you can submit your docs and win if you are very lucky), but I'm not sure if it's still running. 

You can read more about different ways to immigrate here: 

USCIS - Green Card


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> J
> The federal government is solely responsible for immigration, Not the local municipalities, or states, The federal government is.


So, if the Federal government can ignore a law, then why should the states feel obligated to comply with any federal law?

The rule of law is necessary for an orderly society. Enforce the laws or change them. Don't selectively chose to ignore the law.

If you don't like a law then change it. If you don't like a constitutional amendment then amend it.

There are tens of thousands of people who are willing to stand in line waiting to legitimately immigrate. Those who come here illegally should be rewarded and those who wish to come legitimately be denied?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

It used to be exciting when you met an immigrant. Regardless if they were here and hoping to become a citizen or just here for a short time for school or contract work. Those were the legal ones. The illegal ones were seen as criminals and shunned as such.




Speed Racer said:


> Geeze Joe, where did the OP say anything about illegal immigration? Oh that's right, she didn't!
> 
> As far as 'taking jobs away from Americans', what a crock! The illegals do the jobs so many Americans think are beneath them. I say if you want to pick fruits and vegetables in the blazing hot sun for less than minimum wage, nobody's stopping you. You can also quit your day job and work fast food or do hard manual labor for a pittance. Go ahead, tell me again what GREAT opportunities the illegals are taking from Americans.


Um, I will disagree based on the experience of two of my daughters and their college friends. Both like outdoor work and when I took an 11 month job back east, just so they could experience life there, they had a terrible time getting work because so many employers were used to hiring illegal immigrants. They pushed and persevered, got jobs, and did well. They and the illegal immigrants all made a bit better than minimum wage.

Then youngest daughter went to college in a midwestern state for two years. She applied for and got an agricultural job - after having to really beg. The boss hired her because he was curious to see if a western kid would really do the work. She did so well that he asked her to recruit other college kids for his summer work. He now uses American college kids and they recruit the next crew as they graduate. His immigrant crews were here on work visas and he saved money by hiring Americans because he didn't have to pay travel and bond insurance.

Fast food places don't hire illegal aliens like ag does. And ag work is so healthy. Maybe some Americans are lazy, but many give up when they are first rebuffed. Americans are up to hard work, and I wish more would chose those fields.


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

Speed Racer said:


> *As far as 'taking jobs away from Americans', what a crock!* The illegals do the jobs so many Americans think are beneath them. I say if you want to pick fruits and vegetables in the blazing hot sun for less than minimum wage, nobody's stopping you. You can also quit your day job and work fast food or do hard manual labor for a pittance. Go ahead, tell me again what GREAT opportunities the illegals are taking from Americans.


We have 12 million Citizens out of work, some have had 2 years of Unemployment Benefits run out.

I know several people who have taken these kinds of jobs, problem is they have a hard time fitting in and following instruction as the Foreman and everyone else working there speak Spanish.

As far as the 1st sentence I highlighted, that is just talking points form people trying to justify letting illegals get away with breaking the law. 


Back to the OP, America was founded by immigrants and at a time when America was young and building itself we needed all the talent and people we could attract, I am not opposed to attracting new Immigrants, but Today we are getting full and need to clamp down on Illegal Immigration, and also get rid of the Stupid Anchor Baby Law.

.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Employers demand cheap labour. undocumented workers are plentiful, cheap and do not require benefits. They also pay into Social Security and will never recieve one dime back.
We need immigration reform in this country that allows those that are already working and contributing to our economy the opprotunity to work legally without fear of deportation yet demands that they return to their native country.
My family has sponsored an individual and his wife. both are now citizens and their children were born here. The family owns land and a business the children are either in college or have already graduated.
A son is serving in the US Army as an officer.
I personally know of more than a few undocumented workers that were given a fast track to citzenship after joining the Army.
Our immigrations laws are outdated and do not address the current needs of this country. Shalom


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Employers demand cheap labour."

Yes, but we shouldn't give it to them. My friend with a ranch hires guys from South America to herd sheep. He has to pay their travel and pay them a decent wage and provide health benefits. They come, work - and very few Americans want to work herding sheep - and then go back and visit their families.

I'd love to see that program expanded. But if employers can get away with hiring near slave labor, many will. We should not let them. And yes, that means requiring employers to check immigration status, and fining those who do not.

In the 1800s, we could afford open immigration. We cannot any more. There are very few jobs Americans won't do, although there are a lot of jobs Americans won't do for slave wages. Immigration policy should be determined by what advances the country, not by what makes someone feel good about themselves.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> Employers demand cheap labour. undocumented workers are plentiful, cheap and do not require benefits. They also pay into Social Security and will never recieve one dime back.
> We need immigration reform in this country that allows those that are already working and contributing to our economy the opprotunity to work legally without fear of deportation yet demands that they return to their native country.
> My family has sponsored an individual and his wife. both are now citizens and their children were born here. The family owns land and a business the children are either in college or have already graduated.
> A son is serving in the US Army as an officer.
> ...


Couple of counter points for you.

-Unskilled laborers enters the country unskilled and take unskilled positions. Who would get those jobs if they weren't already taken? Unskilled teens and college students. Both parties leverage that unskilled beginning into skills to better themselves down the road. We have to manage the rate unskilled immigrants enter the country to prevent what we have going on now. That is american youth having a hard time getting a job. There isn't any jobs americans wont do and is a big lie foisted off on the country. 

-Paying into social security? I guess you don't pay to much attention to what is going on. Immigrants are not being denied social security or other government hand outs. They take out way more in benefits then they put in. Immagrate here legally at 65 and bang, you are on social security. Immagrate here at 25 with 6 kids and bang, your kids are in school. A K-12 education takes about 150k per kid in Oregon. In our state social services are going broke handing out all this money and so they keep wanting to jack up tax revenue to pay for it. The biggest users of social services are immigrants and we don't even know their immigration status because the state refuses to ask.

-I agree our immigration laws need a serious overhaul.

Now to the OP.

In the past our immigration policy has been pretty wide open, as said, we had a lot of space that needed filling. Now we need to control the rate at which immigration occurs. Why? We need to give our citizens first crack at opportunities and backfill what's left from outside the country. With fast growth there is a lot of opportunities for all, with slow growth there isn't enough to go around and growth has slowed. That's for skilled and unskilled workers. 

We also can't afford to keep bringing in those that are close or already at retirement age and feeding them benefits. Again, there's only so much money available to dole out. We need those paying into the system, not those taking from the system. 

Immigrants need to be brought in at a rate no faster than can be assimilated into our culture. When brought in to fast they don't assimilate at all but instead stay off to the side and create little "China, Mexico, Somalia, whatever" ethnic group they are. This creates divisiveness, they don't learn english, there is tension between groups and they follow the laws of their native country, not US law. This isn't good for anyone.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

you want to immigrate to the U.S.
follow the law/s that are now on the books.

plan and simple. these laws worked for the mass
majority of immigrates who came from countries across the Atlantic.
Why should countries south of the Rio Grande be any different.
(special).


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

*Theodore Roosevelt on Immigration*


Theodore Roosevelt on Immigrants and being an American – January 3, 1919
_“In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man’s becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American. If he tries to keep segregated with men of his own origin and separated from the rest of America, then he isn’t doing his part as an American. There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language for we intend to see that the crucible turns our people out as Americans, and American nationality, and not as dwellers in a polyglot boarding house; and we have room for but one soul[sic] loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”_


. The text actually comes from a letter he wrote in 1919 just days before his death. If you would like to see the original document from the Manuscript Division of the Library of Congress, it can be viewed here.

Theodore Roosevelt on Immigration | The Clockwork Conservative


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

That letter was written at a time when Irish, Jewish, and Itallian immigrants were discriminated against on a national level.
It is also somewhat racist if you ask me and reflects the isolationist policies of the time. Thankfully we have progressed as a nation.
to those who think it was easy to immigrate in the past let us not forget the thousands of jews who were denied entry to this country and perished in the death camps of WW2. Simply because the quota for jews was already filled.
I am an American and proud of the fact. Yet I am also a citizen of Israel. My loyalties have not been tested and I hope that they never are. It would be decision I would not want to make. Shalom


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## LexusK (Jan 18, 2013)

I legally immigrated to the USA in 2005 and was granted a "Green Card" and permanent resident status. If you have any questions about the current immigration policy from someone who's been through it all, I would be happy to answer them for you through PM


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Don't know if this is relevant, but my wife & my two oldest kids are immigrants. It gave me a hatred for the INS, which was filled with incredibly stupid people. At one point, when my oldest daughter was then 5, some woman sat on the other side of her desk and suggested I had adopted her for use as a maid. I lost it. I sprang up, leaned over her desk, and shouted, "Come take a look at her F'n pigsty of a room!" 

We filed hundreds of pages of documents. While stationed at Ft Hood, I was being required to go to Austin almost weekly, each time with a new piece of paper. Finally, I had in inspector say we had filed every possible paper and would not need any more. Sure enough, a few weeks later, I received another demand for a personal delivery of some paperwork. It was at the time of the World Trade Center bombings. I wrote back that I should have put a turban around their heads, stuck a bomb under their arms, and had them claim asylum on entry!

Apparently someone found my letter funny, and posted it on a bulletin board in the INS office. A week later, I got a phone call from the head of the Austin office, telling me that a court date had been set for my kids to become citizens.

Fast forward 20+ years. The oldest daughter, who couldn't clean her room to save her soul, joined the US Marine Corps and did a tour in Iraq. My son has done tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I still think badly of the INS. :-x


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

It's actually a lot harder than you would think to immigrate here legally. 

For one, you have to prove that an American couldn't do your job? Well how do you do that? If I were a brain surgeon and American brain surgeon could do my job. 

I am married to an American, but have no desire to become a citizen here as much as I love the country. So I am in the endless tax process of visa's and green cards. And it's darn expensive. I don't have my green card yet, but it will have cost me about $10k by the time I get it.


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

Let me ask the question again.

If the federal government ignores laws, then how could they possibly expect the states to comply with any federal law they don't like?

Or, if the feds can ignore federal laws then why can't the states?

So, if the feds, and the states, can ignore a law, then why not the citizens as well?

The rule of law is important to society, enforce the darn laws or change them.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

It is very hard to become a citizen of the US. We need to revamp our policies to expedite those that have the educations needed for our countries future.
gunslinger the federal government receives billions in taxes from those here without the proper documents.
To deport the millions of undocumented workers would leave a severe shortage of labour and cost billions to round them up and deport them. Most are lawabiding hard working members of our communities. the economies of Texas and California as well as the other southwestern states would collapse. Shalom


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> It is very hard to become a citizen of the US. We need to revamp our policies to expedite those that have the educations needed for our countries future.
> gunslinger the federal government receives billions in taxes from those here without the proper documents.
> To deport the millions of undocumented workers would leave a severe shortage of labour and cost billions to round them up and deport them. Most are lawabiding hard working members of our communities. the economies of Texas and California as well as the other southwestern states would collapse. Shalom


Stick to the facts, db...illegal aliens cause a net loss of billions of dollars a year more than they contribute. Don't try to make a negative into a positive - in this case it can't be done...illegal aliens are a net loss to this country - not a gain...


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> the federal government receives billions in taxes from those here without the proper documents.


DB.... oh DB... 

Don't forget the pandering for votes............

Also, would you like a *list* of the Billions and Billions it cost Taxpayers to allow illegals here? 

Not to mention the loss of life of innocent Americans killed by illegals everyday!

People are breaking the law by coming here illegally.

They are demeaning the good intent of all the people that came here legally.

I just cannot understand the justification some have for making an illegal activity into some kind of greatness... arghhhh

.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

I work in a warehouse where US "natives" are the minority..

I've met a few very nice people with alien cards..I've also met the majority that won't stop touching me when I tell them to stop, look at me like I'm stupid when I speak to them in ENGLISH, and have no respect at all.

I have no problem with foreigners coming here..but learn my f'n language!

Now..this is from my uneducated POV. I just don't have the effort to research everything about it when I won't ever have to make decisions with it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Iseul said:


> I work in a warehouse where US "natives" are the minority..
> 
> I've met a few very nice people with alien cards..I've also met the majority that won't stop touching me when I tell them to stop, look at me like I'm stupid when I speak to them in ENGLISH, and have no respect at all.
> 
> ...


In my case I have nothing - absolutely nothing - against those that are here legally. But I have no tolerance whatsoever for illegals. And people can call them "undocumented workers" or any other name they want, but they are exactly what they are - illegal aliens.

And quite frankly, it turns my stomach that BOTH parties, Republican and Democratic, are caving in to immigration reform just to buy votes - it is disgusting. At least the Republicans want our borders protected first, but the Democrats don't even want that. Illegal aliens are invaders and criminals and should be treated as such.

Personally, I think almost ALL immigration should be stopped except for marriages and job transfers to the US, and professions in which we have a critical shortage, until we get back on our feet economically. Let's get real here...how stupid is it to allow immigration when we are sitting here with 12.3 million people unemployed? Pretty dang stupid...sort of like having a family of 4 and you only have 3 hamburgers and 2 potatoes to cook, but you invite 6 other people to dinner...duh.

If we don't crash and burn first, someday we need to start putting the interests of the country above some distorted and unrealistic view of what is politically correct....there have been and will be times when the nation needs immigrants, and there have been and will be times when we don't. Immigration to the US is not some entitlement that every person on Earth is born with...


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> Don't forget the pandering for votes............
> .


What votes? Unless you are a citizen, you can't vote. 




Faceman said:


> Personally, I think almost ALL immigration should be stopped except for marriages and job transfers to the US, and professions in which we have a critical shortage, until we get back on our feet economically. Let's get real here...how stupid is it to allow immigration when we are sitting here with 12.3 million people unemployed? Pretty dang stupid...sort of like having a family of 4 and you only have 3 hamburgers and 2 potatoes to cook, but you invite 6 other people to dinner...duh.


I can't get people to do my job. Heck I get a $750 bonus for recruiting a foster parent, and I wouldn't mind having that money, so I try. In 5-6 years, I have recruited zero people. I know quite a few American's who are out of work, I know zero who are willing to do something for someone else and get themselves out of a hole. It's a shame. My work is hard, but it pays well because of it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

AlexS said:


> What votes? Unless you are a citizen, you can't vote...


BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

However, most of the pandering is done because we now believe in tribal voting. Hispanic? Anything that helps some helps all. Want free condoms? Vote as the free condom vote (or pander to women and accuse the other side of hating women). There's the black vote, the asian vote, the chinese vote, the white vote...doesn't seem like folks discuss ISSUES anymore.

I think that is because the stupid people find it easier to vote "woman", "black", "white", whatever - and not think. And that is something that has always been with us - the Irish vote, the Italian vote, etc. A horrible side effect of democracy is that stupid people get to vote, and to vote on whatever basis their stupidity encourages them to use.

Pity I can't be King of the World (that is a GS-100 position) and rule everything...:wink:


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

AlexS said:


> ..I know quite a few American's who are out of work, I know zero who are willing to do something for someone else and get themselves out of a hole. It's a shame. My work is hard, but it pays well because of it.


And while there are many unemployed that would not qualify, there obviously are many that would...makes one shake one's head. As I say all the time, there are jobs out there and people drawing unemployment, and we keep on extending and extending and extending unemployment payments...makes no sense...none...zippo. The longer this goes on, the more disgusted I get...I am about to the point where I am willing to let people that refuse to work just starve. Not working because you can't find work is one thing...not working because a job is "beneath" you, or you don't like the job, or it doesn't pay what you want to make, or you don't want to work outside, or you don't want to wear a tie, or any of hundreds of excuses, is quite another...


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

AlexS said:


> What votes? Unless you are a citizen, you can't vote.


Guess you missed where I said my state refuses to check immigration status for benefits, that goes for voting too. Matter of fact you can now register on line and we are a vote by mail state. No proof of ID is ever needed and no one will see you face to face either.

Now is there any proof of illegals voting in Oregon? No but no one is looking either. Is the system ripe for voter fraud? Yes.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

The undocumented workers here in Texas contribute greatly to the economic strength this state has enjoyed while most of the country has suffered far worse in the last few years. In fact Texas has increased its surplus from 6 Billion to !0 billion. why do you think the republicans here are not shouting from the top of their lungs to deport those here illegally? Because they are good for the economy.
undocumented workers pay cash for things US citizens buy with credit.
In fact every major city in Texas has their own little mexico that has many business that cater to the community., They are thriving.
I can take you to several areas in the DFW metroplex
Undocumented workers pay taxes, pay into social security , which by the way they will never recieve, do not get unemployement or any federal or state assistance. Their children do that are born here but they just so happen to be US citizens .
There has never been a case of an undocumented worker voting illegally. Voter fraud is very rare. Shalom


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

They aren't "undocumented workers". They are here illegally. They do not legally qualify for documents. I went thru the nightmare of getting documents and following the law for my wife and the two kids we adopted. My daughter-in-law has gone thru the legal process required to get documents - but then, they are from the Philippines. Filipinos and Filipinas don't have the 'right' to be "undocumented workers". That is just for Mexicans, or those from central America.

Slavery might have been good for the economy, but that didn't make it right. Paying pee-poor wages and being able to abuse someone because they are afraid of the law isn't moral either. I'm not so desperate to eat fruit that I couldn't pay more to buy fruit picked legally.

I'm also not thrilled with importing Mexican culture. Mexico is politically corrupt, and bringing in millions of Mexicans and not requiring assimilation means our culture becomes more like the corrupt political culture of Mexico. And it also is bringing in crime and violence, because a border that isn't controlled makes it simple to bring in drugs. Many of the areas I hiked in as a kid are now marked with warning signs, because the government makes no attempt to prevent armed drug runners from crossing thru. My son-in-law has come across drug and gun caches while riding a dirt bike. When I go hiking now, I carry at least one gun with me. Often two - one openly, and one concealed. :? That is a change that has come about because the border isn't controlled, and it isn't controlled because Democrats want to pander to tribal voting by Hispanics, and the GOP-E wants slave labor for big business.

I see no morality in our current policies. We could easily allow employers to check on citizenship, and then drive out of business those who hire "undocumented workers". We could greatly expand the guest worker program. If that drives up the cost of apples, so be it. We could give ranchers on the border the right to defend themselves. But then, that would require us to be a serious country - one that would vote based on things like deficits or crime instead of tribal loyalties...






BTW - "There has never been a case of an undocumented worker voting illegally."

Given the total lack of enforcement, and how difficult the courts & feds have made it to CHECK on the citizenship of those who vote, how would anyone know?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I recently volunteered at a non profit part time last year. I had to show 3 forms of ID. My Drivers license, retired Military ID, and social security card. The information was run against a national data base during my background check. Just to prove I was a US citizen. I had to apply just as if I was seeking employment.
It is not so easy to overlook undocumented workers as it used to be. Shalom


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> I recently volunteered at a non profit part time last year. I had to show 3 forms of ID. My Drivers license, retired Military ID, and social security card. The information was run against a national data base during my background check. Just to prove I was a US citizen. I had to apply just as if I was seeking employment.
> It is not so easy to overlook undocumented workers as it used to be. Shalom


That's a state by state thing and because it's that way in Texas does not mean it is how other states are run. They are called sanctuary states like Oregon and California. Laws are on the book but directive from up high tells everyone to not enforce those laws.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> There has never been a case of an undocumented worker voting illegally. Voter fraud is very rare. Shalom


db, with all due respect, you just say things off the top of your head without any investigation or knowledge. 

Voter fraud by illegal immigrants is common - just not normally prosecuted. If you want a "case" - here is one, and this is from the ICE website - not a conservative website...

Illegal alien arrested, charged with voter fraud 

As to illegals contributing in Texas - no one said they don't contribute (as a group). So what? Murderers and rapists and child molestors pay taxes too. The net cost to this country of illegals is still billions of dollars a year. I am not sure what is so hard for you to grasp there.

And, as I said, Texas has 1 million unemployed we all are paying for, and 1.6 million illegal alien workers. That is idiocy, and it is idiocy by any reasonable measure...


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## gunslinger (Sep 17, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> It is very hard to become a citizen of the US. We need to revamp our policies to expedite those that have the educations needed for our countries future.
> gunslinger the federal government receives billions in taxes from those here without the proper documents.
> To deport the millions of undocumented workers would leave a severe shortage of labour and cost billions to round them up and deport them. Most are lawabiding hard working members of our communities. the economies of Texas and California as well as the other southwestern states would collapse. Shalom


So, I'm sure most (insert favorite politically correct term) are great people and hard workers. I'm sure there would be consequences for deporting them as well. I'm not calling for deportation necessarily although that shouldn't be ruled out IMO.

Tell me please, what's this got to do with the rule of law?

Tell me why you should obey any law you don't like if the federal government doesn't have to.

Why should the expectation be that you obey the law and the federal government not?

Isn't this hypocrisy? Don't do as I do, do as I say do!

We don't have to like the law, but the law needs to be obeyed and enforced until the legislature (not the president and not by executive order) changes them.


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## FlyGap (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm with the others that say we REALLY need to limit legal immigration right now.
Again, 12+ million people out of work don't need competition. A federal deficit now around the "reported" 17 billion dollar mark is obviously something we need to be addressing FIRST, then backing it up with immigration reform.

I have some experience with both types of immigration. A former employer ran a tremendously profitable business (a cheap jewelry supplier). He was from India. He helped other Indians come over... But he used them like indentured servants. Work for X amount of years, live in a one room apartment, toilet was right next to the bed, that he provided. He paid them a bit of money for food, some went to pay him back, and the rest was sent to India to both bring over a age appropriate child and support their family. The man was a tax genius, multi millionaire.

Been to a major tourism area in the states? All of the malls, shops, whatevers are using the same tactics.
Gas stations? They are all doing it. You will be hard pressed to find an American teen getting a summer job in these areas.

Illegal Immigration. Funny how the media and Liberals keep spouting that American's won't do this "menial" labor... They need to come on out where I live! We do not have an Illegal population. We are completely rural. There are farm hands that live at the ranches, college kids, farm kids, and people making decent however seasonal labor wages. They are paying these people minimum wage and doing just fine. They harvest fruit crops, hay, corn, run cattle, log, you name it. If there is an area where labor is needed people WILL move there if they pay a decent wage, what the big farmers are avoiding, thus "not being able to hire Americans."

I implore every American who doesn't agree with what's going on to please grow a garden, raise a few animals or go in with other people to purchase meat from a small local farmer, to become as self sustainable as possible. That is the only way we are going to make a difference.

Buy local, avoid Chinese/Indian manufactured goods, do not support the atrocities and the systems that are seriously impacting our lives.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

As someone else who is a green card holder - so a permanent legal resident - I can tell you that it is far from easy to get into this country. First off you need to have a job to come too and that means that the company has to prove they cant find anyone in the US who they believe to be as capable as you are. 
You have to go through a whole series of hoops to prove you are not a health or social risk
If you break the law in any serious way you are booted out
You cant come here and go straight onto benefits and a retired couple wouldnt be able to emigrate here and claim health or pension benefits as they wouldnt have paid into the US SS system
The cost of getting Green cards and Visas was so high that we wouldnt have come here if the company my husband worked for hadnt insisted on it and paid for everything
I would have thought that the Illegal Immigrant issue was totally different and not what the OP was asking about


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Are we still helping someone with a paper about the views of immigration today compared with 1900 ... ?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> As someone else who is a green card holder - so a permanent legal resident - I can tell you that it is far from easy to get into this country...


LEGALLY, yes. Illegally? No. Cross over from Mexico.

My wife had a patient who broke his leg jumping the fence. His medical bills were paid out as charity from the hospital & doctor. He was then deported. Two months later, he was back in the hospital - with the same leg broken. Jumped the fence before it was fully healed. The hospital she works at has a LOT of illegal immigrant patients being treated for free. They also have a deficit resulting in cutbacks to the number of nurses and PCTs. That affects everyone who goes there...

Entering legally is a painful process. It applies to anyone except Mexicans and those who pass thru Mexico.

And yes, this DOES affect all discussions on current immigration. We don't have an illegal English immigrant problem, or an illegal Filipino immigration problem, nor an illegal Canadian immigration problem.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I agree with bsms it is a valid discussion about immigration and it is a civil one.
bsms there are plenty of people here from europe and other countries whose status is questionable they just happen to blend in.
I have helped interpret or negotiate leases, contracts, bill payments, and problems with utility bills for close to a hundred people or so that are undocumented over the years. Every one of the adults WORK in those families that I have encountered
As long as employers will hire them, people will sell them cars, lease apartments and sell them houses we will not see a reduction in the problems we are experiencing due to those here illegally.
Not to mention the current war raging between the drug cartels that has claimed tens of thousands of lives in Mexico alone. 70,000 in the last 8 years alone. 90 so far this month. the US, Mexico and the nations of Central America all are responsible for the problem of undocumented workers. Shalom


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

AlexS said:


> I don't have my green card yet, but it will have cost me about $10k by the time I get it.


Alex, I know plenty of people who got GC through american citizen spouse, and it only cost them the forms (around $1000 or so). It gets expensive though if you need to hire a lawyer (and many of the people immigrating through the relatives don't hire one). 

And yes, I also know LOTS of people who immigrated through work immigration. While it's tough, it's still possible if you have an education. 

The sad part is there is SO MUCH fraud in EVERY type of immigration that it's getting ridiculous.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Faceman said:


> Personally, I think almost ALL immigration should be stopped except for marriages and job transfers to the US, and professions in which we have a critical shortage, until we get back on our feet economically.


Immigration based on marriages has the huge number of frauds.  Probably more than any other type of immigration. 

I do NOT think immigration through the relatives or job should be stopped, but it should be checked very very carefully for each case.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

FlyGap said:


> Buy local, avoid Chinese/Indian manufactured goods, do not support the atrocities and the systems that are seriously impacting our lives.


Some stuff you can ONLY buy with the stamp "made in China". I often try to find US-made alternative if I can (even if it's more expensive), but for certain things it's impossible to find.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> LEGALLY, yes. Illegally? No. Cross over from Mexico.
> 
> My wife had a patient who broke his leg jumping the fence. His medical bills were paid out as charity from the hospital & doctor. He was then deported. Two months later, he was back in the hospital - with the same leg broken. Jumped the fence before it was fully healed. The hospital she works at has a LOT of illegal immigrant patients being treated for free. They also have a deficit resulting in cutbacks to the number of nurses and PCTs. That affects everyone who goes there...
> 
> ...


 While I dont disagree I also dont see how this relates to the OP's question (neither did my response - it was just to point out that coming in legally is not easy and not cheap)
Maybe if you do go back to the 1900's there is a comparison of sorts to illegal immigrants - I dont know what if any requirements there were then so maybe prior to immigration laws everyone (other than the Native American Indian) was a sort of illegal immigrant and no control of who came in. I have a direct line of ancestors who came here in the early 1700's and established themselves in the northern parts of the west coast area- some moving into Canada. They were all farming people. Of course no benefits in those days so people had to provide for themselves. As that family grew and flourished other family members moved to the US & Canada to join them up until the 1950's. My father & his cousins visted many times for reunions.
Given the tight restrictions to qualify now to get here *legally* (other than by marriage/family) I would say that the immigrants now are more likely to be professional people with relevant qualifications as they have to prove they will add value to the society and not be a drain on it.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

For a few of you who think that they should not even allow legal immigrants.... I think you are forgetting where all of us here in the US came from. 

If you want to go after someone... go after the employers/farmers/ranchers who hire the illegals.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Remali said:


> ...If you want to go after someone... go after the employers/farmers/ranchers who hire the illegals.


In some places, it is illegal to check to see if someone is here legally or not before hiring. In those places, an employer cannot know in advance if he is hiring someone here illegally. E-verify needs to be expanded and required.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Really fighting illegal immigration isn't that hard. Simply pass a law that if name and social security number doesn't match, employer can't right off that workers wages. Employers would quickly divest themselves of any illegal aliens they have hired. They'll self deport quickly when they can't get a job.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> Alex, I know plenty of people who got GC through american citizen spouse, and it only cost them the forms (around $1000 or so). It gets expensive though if you need to hire a lawyer (and many of the people immigrating through the relatives don't hire one).
> 
> And yes, I also know LOTS of people who immigrated through work immigration. While it's tough, it's still possible if you have an education.
> 
> The sad part is there is SO MUCH fraud in EVERY type of immigration that it's getting ridiculous.


Agreed, and if it was a parking ticket, I'd do it alone. However I don't know what I don't know, and do I know enough to know when I am wrong? 

I did 3 years of a 4 year law degree, I think it's something I could manage, but it's scary. It has a massive impact on my life if I make a mistake. I have foster kids, 2 dogs, 3 cats, 1 horse, 1 husband. We have a house we are renovating. This is my WHOLE life, I'd rather pay a professional.

I know people who completed a form correctly, in the wrong color ink. The form was returned to them, and they had to pay the filing fee again. This is my life, I can't afford a dumb mistake, so I'd rather pay a really good lawyer, it's worth it to me.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Remali said:


> For a few of you who think that they should not even allow legal immigrants.... I think you are forgetting where all of us here in the US came from.


And who would that be? I don't recall seeing anyone post about not allowing legal immigrants - when needed.

And where we came from is irrelevant. This is 2013. Every person on the planet is descended from people from somewhere else...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

texasgal said:


> Are we still helping someone with a paper about the views of immigration today compared with 1900 ... ?


I hope so. We needed immigrants in 1900. We do not need immigrants today in the middle of a poor economy and high unemployment - except for in some job categories with critical shortages...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Faceman said:


> I hope so. We needed immigrants in 1900. We do not need immigrants today in the middle of a poor economy and high unemployment - except for in some job categories with critical shortages...


 Given that to qualify to begin the immigration process you have to have a job here that the company has proven that no american can be found to fill it surprises me that anyone is currently coming into the country at all with unemployment figures as high as they are.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

jaydee said:


> Given that to qualify to begin the immigration process *you have to have a job here *that the company has proven that no american can be found to fill it surprises me that anyone is currently coming into the country at all with unemployment figures as high as they are.


Not if you go through Category 1 or as NIW. :wink: People in high education come this way all the time. USCIS - Green Card Through Self-Petition


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> Not if you go through Category 1 or as NIW. :wink: People in high education come this way all the time. USCIS - Green Card Through Self-Petition


 I can see these being people who are going to be considered as high value - they must have to show means of being able to support themselves though mustn't they as you have to pay Social security contributions to be eligible for benefits?
I looked at some history - as the *OP* was asking for that sort of info and its quite interesting to see how the changes affected the figures 
The first immigrants were mostly British and for obvious reasons the numbers coming in were low. The laws were introduced when 'people of colour' began to flood in. In the 1790 Act only 'Free White People' were allowed into the country - they did bring in indentured servants (slaves black or white) as presumably they were considered to be possessions and not people
In the 1860's Blacks were allowed entry but it wasnt until the 1950's that Asians were allowed following the Page Act of 1875 that prevented Asians entry to 'prevent cheap forced labour, prostitution and people fleeing from criminal acts'
In 1924 a Law was passed to restrict the entry of southern & eastern europeans - mostly aimed at Jews, Italians and Slavs
After WW2 Most refugees were barred from entry
In the 1930 depression era more people left the US than entered
After the ethnic quota rule was removed in 1965 the numbers of immigrants quadrupled - 9.6m in 1970 to 38m in 2007
The highest numbers of immigrations now come from Mexico, India, China & Phillipines
Two thirds of immigrants (legal) are now family members of the original immigrant - and this is where you can see the problem spiralling exactly as it has in the UK - because in 2009 66% of immigrants came in this way against only 13% who came in through employment skills.


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

jaydee said:


> Given that to qualify to begin the immigration process you have to have a job here that the company has proven that no american can be found to fill it surprises me that anyone is currently coming into the country at all with unemployment figures as high as they are.


I know this is the law but companies can and do find loop holes in the law. Several semi conductors companies do this on a regular company (industry I'm familiar with). They bring in a ton of foreign engineers every year claiming they can't fill the positions with american engineers. Problem is I know for a fact that american engineers, who fit the bill, have applied and don't get a job. 

Why? Mostly because they abuse the engineers pretty bad and foreign engineer are more willing to take that abuse than american ones just to be here. I'm talking making 40k-60k/yr starting salary, working 80-100hr weeks(including weekends and salary so no OT), rarely getting a day off and willing to take a lot of crap from their bosses. Due to this there is a pretty darn high burnout rate so they need a constant supply of newly minted, compliant engineers.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Darrin said:


> I know this is the law but companies can and do find loop holes in the law. Several semi conductors companies do this on a regular company (industry I'm familiar with). They bring in a ton of foreign engineers every year claiming they can't fill the positions with american engineers. Problem is I know for a fact that american engineers, who fit the bill, have applied and don't get a job.
> 
> Why? Mostly because they abuse the engineers pretty bad and foreign engineer are more willing to take that abuse than american ones just to be here. I'm talking making 40k-60k/yr starting salary, working 80-100hr weeks(including weekends and salary so no OT), rarely getting a day off and willing to take a lot of crap from their bosses. Due to this there is a pretty darn high burnout rate so they need a constant supply of newly minted, compliant engineers.


 I think if you looked at my previous post you will see that on research I found that only 13% of the immigrants for that period were actually employment related. If a company relocates someone they have to pay all the costs of the move and the Green card/visa applications which is pretty expensive - I suppose if they were bringing in cheap labour from Mexico etc it might work for them but no skilled engineer from any of the developed European countries would come here for those conditions as wages are much higher there as are the employment regulations by the sound of it. I'm amazed that Health & Safety/ workplace regs in the US would allow for it either - isnt that why so much manufacturing and production is now being located in countries like India & China where they have 'slave labour' readily available?


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Still a lot of Semi Conductor manufacturing going on in the US. Mostly because that cheap slave labor can't be trusted to make good chips. They are getting better at it though so it is slowly shifting that way.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

jaydee said:


> I can see these being people who are going to be considered as high value - they must have to show means of being able to support themselves though mustn't they as you have to pay Social security contributions to be eligible for benefits?


I don't think you can get any benefits legally (at least federal ones) till you become a citizen (which takes several years). And from what I know you have to work for at least 10 years to get SS and medicare. I think you can still get medicare if you are disabled, but I never dealt with it, so not sure really.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> I don't think you can get any benefits legally (at least federal ones) till you become a citizen (which takes several years). And from what I know you have to work for at least 10 years to get SS and medicare. I think you can still get medicare if you are disabled, but I never dealt with it, so not sure really.


Actually, legal immigrants (non citizens) are eligible for lots of benefits, totalling billions of dollars. The link below, from the AFL-CIO hilights some of them, but there are others...

http://www.workingforamerica.org/documents/checklist.asp

Personally, I have nothing against legal immigrants receiving essentially the same benefits as anyone else, with the exception of voting, of course, and holding public office. I do of course disagree with the specifics of many of the programs themselves, which are far too liberal and are partially responsible for society's entitlement attitude...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

^^ FM, I agree. However it depends on what you mean by "benefits". For example to get COBRA or unemployment you have to work for the company that provides you with insurance and pay those unemployment taxes (or whatever it's called). And frankly COBRA costs SO MUCH that it's much cheaper to buy an individual insurance (here I'm speaking from own experience as well as experience of my relatives). 

BTW, I always thought Medicaid and Unemployment are state-based, not federal. Am I wrong?


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> BTW, I always thought Medicaid and Unemployment are state-based, not federal. Am I wrong?


No, you are not totally wrong - they are state based, but federally subsidized. I've seen a lot of people on here (and elsewhere) make the mistake of saying, pertaining to unemployment, "well, we paid for it"...while it is true we pay FUTA out of our paychecks, that pays only part of unemployment benefits.

Here is a link to the Department of Labor Budget. Scroll down to the Unemployment Insurance, and look at the budget (in thousands), which starts with a summary and then the individual line items. The feds have over $4 billion going into the program that does not come from FUTA contributions...

U.S. Department of Labor - Fiscal Year 2013 Budget in Brief


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Faceman said:


> And who would that be? I don't recall seeing anyone post about not allowing legal immigrants - when needed.
> 
> And where we came from is irrelevant. This is 2013. Every person on the planet is descended from people from somewhere else...


Page four of this thread regarding legal immigrants.

And, actually, yes, it is relevant. But we're all entitled to our opinions.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> I don't think you can get any benefits legally (at least federal ones) till you become a citizen (which takes several years). And from what I know you have to work for at least 10 years to get SS and medicare. I think you can still get medicare if you are disabled, but I never dealt with it, so not sure really.


 We are Green card (legal permanent residents) and we pay the same tax and payments to Social Security/Medicaid (think those are the right terms) as US Citizens do so we would be able to claim benefits if we had to - though we would be more likely to go back to the UK. 
We are now in our 6th year here and can apply for dual citizenship if we want too - takes 5 years to be able to do that.
We still have our UK private pensions plus the US 401K and will have UK state pensions if we were still here when retirement became an issue - I think maybe these remove rights to claim state UK pension - not sure how that works


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

jaydee said:


> We still have our UK private pensions plus the US 401K and will have UK state pensions if we were still here when retirement became an issue - I think maybe these remove rights to claim state UK pension - not sure how that works


Would be interesting to know. I know people from some other countries, and they receive the pension here as well as in the country of origin. You just have to prove every year that you are still alive (or something like that).


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Immigration now differs from immigration back "then." People brought their heritage but became "Americans." It seems very sectional now. People do not want to become Americans....they just want. My family came from Germany and worked hard to become "Americans." They were proud of their heritage and never forgot where they came from but were also very proud to be an American. I hear from my elders how ungrateful people are who come to this country. Too many takers...


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> Would be interesting to know. I know people from some other countries, and they receive the pension here as well as in the country of origin. You just have to prove every year that you are still alive (or something like that).


Haha...I recently started receiving a small pension this year from a company I worked for back in the 80's. In the paperwork it specified that periodically I would have to prove I was still alive. It didn't say how, and I am interested in seeing what I have to do next year to prove my existance...I've never had to do that before...:lol:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> Would be interesting to know. I know people from some other countries, and they receive the pension here as well as in the country of origin. You just have to prove every year that you are still alive (or something like that).


 I've looked into the UK pension side of things and it seems that as its not 'means tested' - your right as earned then you get it wherever you live but I'm now thinking it would affect the US equivalant of a state pension as is that only awarded per need - if you have other income would you still qualify for it? Off subject I know.
The person who posted the change in attitude of immigrants/citizens then and now makes me think of *darrens* post about the company bringing in foreign workers because 'americans' refuse to do the work. I'm not saying that employees should be abused but in the past people were glad to do any job they could find to feed their families - that has all changed
I wonder how some of these would cope with being a working farmer though - I can remember my DH getting up at 4am to start the first milking, slogging it out all day and finishing the last milking of the day at 10pm!!!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman just have Allison testify that only a living breathing person can be such a pain in the A$#. that ought to be proof enough. Shalom


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ We can have an affidavit filled out here on HF, quoting recent posts...:wink:


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

.

What are the Rules to immigrate to Canada, UK or Australia?
Will they just let anyone in and allow them to be there illegally and better yet, *will they allow them to stay there indefinitely knowing they are illegal????*

I know just to visit Australia on a vacation it takes a mountain of paperwork. I could only imagine how hard it is to immigrate.

.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> .
> 
> What are the Rules to immigrate to Canada, UK or Australia?
> Will they just let anyone in and allow them to be there illegally and better yet, *will they allow them to stay there indefinitely knowing they are illegal????*
> ...


The UK is pretty much the same as any other country with the difference that as a part of the EU the UK has had to struggle with immigrants from eastern europe in more recent years as they have different rights of entry under the 'free movement' policy. The UK is currently discussing a need for a change in its relationship with the EU for many reasons
There are many illegal immigrants in the UK, they manage to get in and disapear - supported by immigrant families already living there legally so they are able to stay off the radar, they then manage to get legal rights under the 14 year rule, something else that is being examined as the country is sinking under the weight of its population
I have read through this article and its pretty accurate
Enough illegal migrants to fill three cities the size of Newcastle: 863,000 of them in UK, study finds | Mail Online


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

jaydee said:


> The UK is pretty much the same as any other country with the difference that as a part of the EU the UK has had to struggle with immigrants from eastern europe in more recent years as they have different rights of entry under the 'free movement' policy. The UK is currently discussing a need for a change in its relationship with the EU for many reasons
> There are many illegal immigrants in the UK, they manage to get in and disapear - supported by immigrant families already living there legally so they are able to stay off the radar, they then manage to get legal rights under the 14 year rule, something else that is being examined as the country is sinking under the weight of its population
> I have read through this article and its pretty accurate
> Enough illegal migrants to fill three cities the size of Newcastle: 863,000 of them in UK, study finds | Mail Online


Interesting...I knew the UK had an illegal immigration problem, but didn't know it was that extensive...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> .
> 
> What are the Rules to immigrate to Canada, UK or Australia?
> Will they just let anyone in and allow them to be there illegally and better yet, *will they allow them to stay there indefinitely knowing they are illegal????*
> ...


Don't know about UK or Aus, but it's rather easy to immigrate to Canada (MUCH easier than to US). You pass based on score, which is rather low (IMHO).


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Faceman said:


> In the paperwork it specified that periodically I would have to prove I was still alive. It didn't say how, and I am interested in seeing what I have to do next year to prove my existance...I've never had to do that before...:lol:


****! I know some people who have to go to the Embassy to get a doc stating you are still alive. So that's considered to be a proof. 

Should you prove you are alive to receive SS benefits?


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> Should you prove you are alive to receive SS benefits?


Actually I think we should have to. We hear story after story how someone has been dead for years but their son/daughter/husband/relative/caretaker keeps cashing those SS checks.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Darrin said:


> Actually I think we should have to. We hear story after story how someone has been dead for years but their son/daughter/husband/relative/caretaker keeps cashing those SS checks.


Yes, I read about it. That's why I'm curious.


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## gogaited (Oct 8, 2012)

Illegal Aliens Bringing 60 Percent Lethal Drug-Resistant TB to the United States


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