# Sitting Trot and Lower Back



## Meatos (Apr 30, 2012)

I've noticed after my last two lessons I've had a tight/sore lower back for a few days. I have a pretty crappy lower back anyway and doesn't take much for me to twinge it, but I think the culprit might be sitting trot. I don't do a whole lot of sitting trot but it's the only thing different in my lessons that could be causing this. Anyone else out there have problems with their lower backs and sitting trot? Is there anything I should be aware of when I'm riding that can reduce this (like sitting deeper into the saddle?)? I know I need to strengthen my lower back in general, so I'll be doing additional exercises.

If it's not the sitting trot, the other thing I'm thinking of is my lesson horse - he's an absolute chow hound. There are huge hay bales at one end of the arena and he tries like hell to get at them when we pass them during our warmup walk. He also does this to grass and random wheelbarrows outside when we're walking to/from the stables/paddock. I have to brace a lot and pull him away pretty hard to keep him moving, so that could be the culprit as well.

Thoughts??


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A sitting trot can do that. I suspect if you (or I) had enough flexibility in the lower back, it wouldn't. But my lower back was never flexible, and a riding accident a few years back made it worse on my right side. I can do a sitting trot for a few minutes, but if I do it a lot then I will pay the price afterward.


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## Meatos (Apr 30, 2012)

That sucks. Having a weaker lower back really isn't fun! I've twinged it doing the stupidest things...doesn't put me out or anything, but I just hate the feeling of not being completely mobile - especially when I'm teaching puppy classes where I spend so much time on the floor.

I'll talk to my coach about it and see if she can recommend something that will help my back based on looking at me and my form when I'm in sitting trot.

Thanks!!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Back ache is the scourge of all horse riders.
You might think to have your back examined by a sports physiotherapist - you might have some distortion in your spine - or you might have pulled a muscle.

As a result of previous injury or a poor seating position you may not be sitting level either front to rear or side to side. - Get someone to video you going round in circles - both ways.

You need to strengthen your back muscles around the central core. Go find a Pilates instructor and explain your pain and your need for a strong lower back for horse riding.

Posture is everything in horse riding - you should aim to sit upright at all times - but maintaining the correct posture will take effort - so you need to build muscle in the corrrect place.

If you have pain now the chances are it will without corrective treatment get worse.


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## With Grace (Oct 20, 2011)

So sorry about your back, I know all too well how it feels! I have PsA which started in my lower spine and SI joints. They started deteriorating and the sitting trot would put me in bed for days. I've since been on meds that have helped, but the sitting trot will still aggravate it. Have you seen a chiro to make sure there's nothing going on in your back? 

There are gel seat pads you can put on your saddle for your own back, as well as gel saddle pads can help the impact as well. Strengthening your back as well as your stomach muscles to support your back can help greatly. When it's sore ice and heat alternating can help with soreness too.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

This is why cross training is so important, especially for those of us with desk jobs. The problem is not actually weak back, but a weak abdominal core.
Pilates, yoga (power type yoga, not hatha), strength training, etc.. are all going to help your core and your riding. I have a bad back from riding and what keeps the pain at bay is being at the gym a few times a week, going to hot yoga twice a week and doing at least a little strength/core training every day.

Good luck!


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## Meatos (Apr 30, 2012)

Thanks, guys! I haven't seen any specialists about my back because I know it's muscular, so I just don't bother. Plus I could have a severed arm and still not want to see a doctor about it. I'm one of "those" types. 

I do agree that cross-training is so important, and I do a lot of it - a good mix of running and strength training. Maybe I need to re-jig some of my routines to strengthen my core/back. In the fall/winter/spring I do hot yoga on Wednesday nights. I'll likely start that back up in October when it's a bit cooler.

Will try to get some video.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Meatos, sitting trot calls for complete relaxation of the muslces around your crutch. If there is any tension in those muscles - the the anticipation of pain for example - you will not acheive that level of relaxation. You'll bounce.

You need to ask yourself why you want to use sitting trot. You need to consider whether the horse wants you to do sitting trot. If your horse has a pony's action then perhaps it is best to avoid it.

But what also seems likely is that you need an accomplished instructor to review the way you sit on the horse. Maybe you have to modify your 'seat'. If you were not taught to 'sit' properly from the beginning then perhaps the problem lies there in.

A horse goes from stand to walk, from walk to trot; to canter; to gallop. Sitting trot is useful for work in the arena on a flat surface at a slow trot pace - it is virtually a jog. The upward thrust of the horse's movement must be absorbed by the rider's seating position.

Perhaps it might be an idea for you to find a friend who can readily ride in sitting trot on her horse and then see if you can manage to sit it out on her horse - equally for your friend to ride your horse to see if she can sit your horse in sitting trot.

There are some horse with a conformation and action which makes their trot uncomfortable - so it is best to let the westerners have them - they rarely use the trot.

Trot was developed to allow a body of horsemen - usually military - to ride over hard surfaces in formation say 3 ,4 or more horsemen abreast. Then later in modern times the dressage riders incorporated it into their discipline - do you need it?


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## Meatos (Apr 30, 2012)

What's my crutch? Do you mean my core? I'm very much a beginner (maybe 15 hours in the saddle), and only now am I finally able to commit to weekly lessons, so I know I'm still a bit tense. I don't feel any pain when I'm doing the sitting trot (so therefore I'm not thinking about it), the stiffness usually sets in on the long car ride home. Perhaps I need to stretch before and after my ride - would that help, in addition to relaxing and doing other cross-training exercises?

So far I've only been sitting the trot in my transitions and I'm still getting the hang of my diagonals. I don't do it for extended periods of time, so at this point, I don't know how much I need it or what my instructor has in store for me down the road. The horse I ride is pretty awesome, and I don't think he's the problem - it's all me! My instructor is amazing (very well accomplished) and she is always reminding me to relax in order to smooth out my transitions, but I haven't mentioned the stiffness to her yet. I will at our next lesson on Saturday.

And like I said, it's not full-blown pain I'm feeling. Just muscular stiffness/tenderness that restricts my mobility for a day or two afterwards. So I'm not worried about it per se, but I do want to correct it so that I don't have any problems down the road.

Maybe this is a good excuse to start getting massages.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Meatos, I had not realised that you are a novice rider - it is important for you to point that out when asking for advice on the forum.

From what you say about your instructor then she is the best person to advise you because she can see you on the horse. And as you say the horse is probably a school master.

Your aches and pains, providing you are sitting correctly, are most likely to be to do with your body settling in to a new but strenuous exercise - it certainly is not surprising if you ache after a lesson of say an hour or so.

Your crutch - in English English is your fork - the bit you sit astride on the saddle. It is what keeps you on the back of the horse and when you are more adept the bit thru which the instructions you give to the horse pass.

In the olden days, when I was a young man - before the civil war - we used to do physical exercises on horse back. Nowadays there is Pilates - a group of exercises which work on the central core of muscles - those around what we know as the stomach and lower back, included are stretching exercises and balancing exercises. You'll ache after performing the exercises for at least two days - but it is good for you.

In passing, if you have faith in your instructor - ask her for advice - if she is any good she will explain in far more detail than can be expected over the internet.

Enjoy your new hobby - it is worth it - but allow for years to learn how to ride well.


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## Meatos (Apr 30, 2012)

Sorry about not mentioning my newbieness here. I've mentioned it several times elsewhere and figured the issue had been covered. I'm back to hot yoga hopefully in October when it cools down a bit outside (going into a 40C room after working outside in 40C weather sucks), and I'll look into doing pilates as well. Will definitely mention it to my coach now that I've had two bouts of lower back strain after a lesson. Thanks for all your advice.


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## Lanny Collins (Mar 30, 2012)

I don't believe your question about sitting a trot required knowing how much experience you have. I'm not a fan of sitting the trot but seems I remember seeing linda parrelli on rfdtv doing a show on this but all I remember is that she talked about sitting back a little and with your legs acting like you are riding/peddling a bike in sync with the horses footfall. One leg goes forward while the other leg comes back. I'm too old and stiff to try and sit the trot but you might want to investigate linda and pat parelli to see if maybe they have this part on dvd. I got a new horse a while back which is a Morab. His trot is much different than my previous quarter horses. I'm sure this Morab would be much easier to sit the trot. Good Luck.


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## Lanny Collins (Mar 30, 2012)

Below is a quote taken from this website: Horseback Riding Lessons The Natural Horsemanship Way | Parelli

Freeing your hips is described like peddling a bicycle in sync with your horses movement. If you are in sync with your horse it is much easier to sit trot.

quote below:

The Trot

The trot is one of the hardest horseback riding lessons for the human to learn, and the easiest for the horse! The trot is difficult to ride unless you can free your hips up to do what your horse’s hips are doing – moving independently of each other. Because our hips are usually stiff when riding, rising trot is often the easiest choice. You can practice sitting trot by trotting very slowly at first and coordinating your hip movement with your horse’s hips. This makes an amazing difference!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Lanny Collins said:


> Below is a quote taken from this website: Horseback Riding Lessons The Natural Horsemanship Way | Parelli
> ...


fftopic:
From the same link:_"Pat Parelli comments: “In lessons with International Study Center students, I saw that if the horse went fast and the student did, too, then the horse became calmer and slower. If the horse braced his body against the rider and the rider did exactly the same thing, matched it physically, the horse calmed down.”_

_With normal horseback riding lessons, if the horse gets braced and faster, we try to get more relaxed and slower. This actually feels like opposition and lack of rapport to the horse, and because he is emotional, it upsets him and makes it worse! Weird but true! Just when we think the life-saving thing to do is to hold back, the horse thinks the opposite! So, if we want to get on with the horse, to be in total harmony, we should do what he does."_​That is enough for me to reject what Pat Parelli says about learning to ride. I learned to ride at 50 on a spooky mare. If I matched her, we'd still be running! By far the best way to stop her in a bolt was to relax and softly call her name. If I braced my body, I only told her that I was scared too. Parelli's advice here isn't just wrong, it is extremely wrong & potentially dangerous.

Of course, no one will ever pay me hundreds of dollars for me to teach them riding via DVDs...:wink:


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Rythym - ah yes. The best way is to close your eyes and feel - let the instructor from the centre of the arena handle the horse on a lunge line and you sit in the saddle with your eyes closed and hands on hips - but this is a route not to be taken until you are ready because it hurts a lot if you get it wrong and wind up on the deck. 

But my guess is that as a novice you presently need muscle tone rather than fancy solutions - providng you are otherwise seated in the correct position.

Remember whilst it is important for you to understand the physics of riding - that's what the instrutor is there for to explain - it is the rythmic horse that teaches your sub concious brain to ride by rote ie constant repetition.


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## Lanny Collins (Mar 30, 2012)

It's not real smart to learn to ride @ 50 on a spooky mare. Guess if someone had learned from professionals they wouldn't have needed to learn to ride a spooky horse. They would fix the spook problem before they tried to ride.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Lanny Collins said:


> ...It's not real smart to learn to ride @ 50 on a spooky mare. Guess if someone had learned from professionals they wouldn't have needed to learn to ride a spooky horse. They would fix the spook problem before they tried to ride.


Well, I've never charged someone $10 for $1 worth of advice or equipment, and my spooky mare taught me that Parelli shovels horse poop - at least some of the time - without my spending money on his stuff. And some of a spook problem has to be dealt with from the saddle. Groundwork is good, but it isn't a total replacement for saddle time. But if I ever figure out a way to bottle sweaty horse blankets, I'll be rolling in dough!

Closer to the topic: "_she talked about sitting back a little and with your legs acting like you are riding/peddling a bike in sync with the horses footfall. One leg goes forward while the other leg comes back_" is also not the way to sit the trot. Those with tight hips or a stiff lower back (me, and possibly the OP) need time to get looser. For Meatos: Make sure you don't grip with your knees - that creates a pivot point and robs you of the weight of your legs pulling your butt into the saddle. Try to smile while sitting the trot - it makes it harder to tense up, and the more you tense the harder you will bounce and the more it will hurt afterward. My daughter-in-law was sitting the trot fairly well in one lesson, but I think she has rubber bands instead of bones. With experience, the body gets looser and your subconscious will learn to go with the flow of the horse's movement.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The OP's newness to riding is absolutely pertinent to this question. She is probably still very much just working on achieving her balance, in ANY gait. She probably cannot hold and work the rein in an automatic fashion, thus a part of her brain is working there, too. Riding takes focus on so many parts of the human body, and the horse's body and mind. It means we have to split our focus many directions. At the beginning, it seems impossibly hard. But, as one gets better, they need put less concious focus on each part and continue with some things, such as posting , or such as keeping a smooth rein contact, without atually being aware they are doing it. That way , they can focus concisously on the next challenge.

Sitting trot is not easy, so this newbie should not expect it be so. There isn't a big "secret" that once you get it , sitting trot will be a piece of cake. It takes time to get the balance, the mucsles and the sense of timing to do it, even if you were told the big, special secret that the trainers know and sell for big bucks.

At this point in her development, she should stick mostly with rising trot, and work in sitting trot in small amounts on the lounge line., That would be my advice.


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## Meatos (Apr 30, 2012)

Whoa, didn't expect this thread to take a downturn! 

Thanks for all the helpful advice. My body is still getting used to riding and I've definitely got a lot to think about when I'm in the saddle. The majority of my lesson is in a rising trot, and very little in a sitting trot (like I said, I'm only doing it for transitions and diagonals, etc.). It was just the only thing different in my lessons that I could think of that would be causing this all of a sudden.

I've ordered some pilates DVDs to help me develop my core/back, and will talk to my coach at my lesson on Saturday about what she thinks I could be doing differently in order to ease up on my lower back muscles a bit. 

Thanks again...at ease, everybody!!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Another thing that just came to my mind is that some saddles are not comfy for certain persons, and this will become radically apparent when they start doing the sitting trot. I had a Crosby that I just loved in general, but when we started doing sitting trot work, my lady bits were being massacred and I had to sell that saddle. My Klimke does not do this to me. That's why I call it "The Sofa".


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

I also used to think a sore back was one of those "rider" things.

But it does't need to be! It all changed one day when I had my one and only lesson with Charles de Kunffy. "Sit up--NO NO NO! Do not arch your back!" And he proceded to rearrange my postion: lowering the thigh and knee, lengthening the front of the body, and doing the "lumbar tuck."

Later I had to look up what in the world the lumbar is :?. . .but it worked! I couldn't believe it, but after a week or so of "tucking" and lowering, there was no back pain AT ALL!

That was back when I was in my thirties. Since then, I've experienced some back pain when I tried to ride my new horse with the long stirrup. Just shortening the stirrup fixed things.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I audited one day of Charles deKunfy clinic. He had a lot of good information on position and such. 

Can you explain further about this position? I mean what you were doing before and what you do that does not cause the pain? Specifically.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

First, my own conformation: short, light flat upper body, tend to be round-shouldered (the studious-student posture.)

I've always had trouble sitting "up" and having no "chest" doesn't help. I was taught the strict thumbs-up, heels down way, and I think most of us did indeed arch our backs. Especially over jumps. I believe it's the trauma to the arched back that makes us hurt.

Now, we all expected Mr. de Kunffy would shorten our stirrups; but he did not. First, he took hold of a knee, and lowered it, bringing the whole leg backwards. This made the stiurrup seem quite a bit shorter!

Then he pushed the lower back forward (the "tuck") and said to raise the rib cage--I forget exactly how he phrased this part. I think of it as making my front "long"; I've seen Europeans with the deep chest, and the way they hold themselves, and I try to sit as though I could balance a glass on my chest. (Ha ha! Not a chance, but it helps my postition to think so.)

I know it's about right when I can feel my core tighten--not from effort, the belly and all just sort of contract together firmly. I've been able to develop a more independent seat, and sitting the trot of even my bouncy horse is not so much of a problem, because I can follow her movement without too much muscle-power---_most_ of the time!

Strangely, all this didn't take too long to learn. (My friend and I kept telling each other "Lumbar tuck!" whenever we saw each other slouching!)

I hope this makes sense. As I age, I find there are enough other ways to get one's aches and pains. At least it's not in every-day riding.


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