# Straight in the hind



## savvylr

Hey guys. Could someone please explain to me exactly what I am looking at/for when a horse is straight in the hind legs and why this is considered a precursor to lameness? Am I looking at the cannon, the pastern, what? Also, is straightness of the front legs looked at in the same way?

Sincerely,
Someone Who Has Been Staring at Back Legs of Horses and Can't Seem to Figure it Out


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## tinyliny

well, before I try to go find photos of conformation, let me just say that the hind leg is designed to sort of collaps and expand, sort of like an accordian fold. When the horse lifts his leg, the stifle will bend, the hock will bend, the fetlock will bend. when the horse lands on that leg, a lot of weight goes down the leg and the bend points of the leg (hock , stifle and fetlock) can bend a little to absorb some of the impact, and then having absorbed some of that energy, they can 'rebound' and provide lift with that very same energy . 

the horse with an overly straight leg is not as able to absorb impact energy, nor utilize it for rebound. if you can't absorb impact concussive energy, it will be transferred into the body of the horse (and the rider feels this as a stilted, hard gait). that is hard on a horse, and might lead to premature wear and tear.

does that make any sense?


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## Yogiwick

To add, horses with straight hind legs tend to have stifle issues specifically (locking stifle).

G2843 Leg Set: Its Effect on Action and Soundness of Horses | University of Missouri Extension

I knew a horse with very straight legs, no definition to the joints. Of course they thought he was a good eventer... whelp he had pretty bad locking stifles. I wasn't surprised to find when I visited the barn years later that he had a torn ACL and they didn't know if he would ever be sound again. In fact I was tempted to shout "what did you expect!".

The leg is not intended to be that way....and what tinyliny said. The legs are the most important part and the most easily damaged. I wouldn't ever consider a horse with noticeably bad leg conformation for anything other than a pet.

And front legs are supposed to be perfectly straight. The joints all line up in a straight line. They are designed that way unlike the hind legs.


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## loosie

Here you go - the first is 'post legged' / straight back legs. The second, the foal, is also 'posty' - just thought it was such an ugly, ill built eg, as are so many of your 'beef bull' built modern halter class QH's - why they're only suitable for halter class & not cut out to actually do much & remain sound!
Next pics, for comparison, are the opposite eg - sickle hocked. Then there's the diagram to explain...


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## trailhorserider

Gosh, that weanling is extra creepy! 

I just wanted to mention that there is a theory out there that sickle hocks are a pain stance, not necessarily a conformation defect. I would definitely choose sickle hocks over a horse that is too posty.


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## Smilie

trailhorserider said:


> Gosh, that weanling is extra creepy!
> 
> I just wanted to mention that there is a theory out there that sickle hocks are a pain stance, not necessarily a conformation defect. I would definitely choose sickle hocks over a horse that is too posty.


True sickle hocks are a conformation defect
A horse will stand under himself, as in when front feet are painful. Acute laminitis is an example, but standing under to relieve pain in front feet, has zero to do with true sickle hocks
However, this post is about being not , straight, but too straight in the hind end, as in post legged, which I agree is a serious defect

For info, this is what sickle hocks are, and the stress they cause:

'Sickle hocks

If a horse has too much bend at the hock joints (cannon bone sloped rather than vertical), this adds more stress and strain to the joint, and creates a type of conformation called sickle hocks. This hind leg structure makes a horse more likely to develop curb (enlargement of the tendon at the back of the hock due to excessive strain), bone spavin at the lower hock joints (enlargement on one or more of the hock bones), or bog spavin (permanent swelling in the soft tissues of the hock).

Here is post legged:

Post legged

Hocks that are too straight (not enough bend) put the whole hind leg too forward--not directly under the buttocks. A horse is considered post-legged (hocks too straight) if the joint angle between the upper leg bone and the cannon bone is more than 170 degrees. Viewed from the side, if a hind leg is too straight, a line dropped from the buttock falls in back of the cannon; the hock is set forward almost under the stifle; the leg as a whole is almost as straight as a fence post. The tibia (above the hock) is almost vertical, rather than having a normal 60 degree slope.

Post-legged structure can cause locked stifles. Since the stifle joint is also too straight, the patella (kneecap) sometimes slips out of position and locks the leg in backward extension. The straightness of the stifle limits the movement of the ligaments across the patella, which not only tends to lock this small bone in the wrong place at the wrong time, but can also lead to degenerative arthritis in the stifle joint.

If the hind leg is so straight that the stifle is upright (with the femur--the bone above the stifle joint--and the patella nearly in a straight line) there is great risk for dislocation of the patella and locking of the stifle joint."



Nether is good, and I would avoid both


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## Smilie

Ps, I would not evaluate that horse won the left, far as being sickle hocked or not, as the horse is standing under himself, both front and back
A horse that is truly sickle hocked, if stood up correctly, will have those hind legs angled under him

Here is the entire article on hind limb conformation

The abnormal 'straightness of the hind legs is gauged by the angle in the hock area, with that angle being very open in a posted legged horse

http://equimed.com/health-centers/lameness/articles/importance-of-proper-hind-leg-conformation


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## Yogiwick

trailhorserider said:


> Gosh, that weanling is extra creepy!
> 
> I just wanted to mention that there is a theory out there that sickle hocks are a pain stance, not necessarily a conformation defect. I would definitely choose sickle hocks over a horse that is too posty.


Agree, sickle hocks aren't typically a soundness issue, though of course not a desired trait.

Any type of postiness will stress the joints and honestly you could not pay me to take either of those horses. They WILL NOT be sound, no "maybe" about it. Not only will they not hold up to any type of riding whatsoever but those 2 are so extreme I don't think they'd stay sound to even middle aged standing in a pasture (how do they move NOW?)

I absolutely think that the physical stance of "sickle hocks" can be attributed to pain, sort of like a mild founder stance. It is also commonly due to poor positioning of the horse in many photographs. BUT actual sickle hocks IS conformation as it's how the leg is shaped that puts it in that position. If you step the horse up and their leg looks completely normal then they are not truly sickle hocked.

This horse for ex is truly sickle hocked, no matter how you position this horse those legs will NOT be normal. Note that to get the cannon bone straight up and down he would be extremely camped out (and yikes!)


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## savvylr

These posts are very helpful, guys! Thanks a bunch  I'm figuring out more what I need to look for. Thanks a bunch!


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## Smilie

True sickle hocks can cause a soundness issues, such as curbs
Any time limbs deviate from normal aliegnment, there is excess stress on a joint
Simple engineering law

I did paste the info above, but since is is important, will paste it again:

''Sickle hocks

If a horse has too much bend at the hock joints (cannon bone sloped rather than vertical), this adds more stress and strain to the joint, and creates a type of conformation called sickle hocks. This hind leg structure makes a horse more likely to develop curb (enlargement of the tendon at the back of the hock due to excessive strain), bone spavin at the lower hock joints (enlargement on one or more of the hock bones), or bog spavin (permanent swelling in the soft tissues of the hock).


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## cbar

Yikes! Is that foal for real??? 

I do have a horse who is quite 'post-legged'. He is a pasture pet...and his injuries are all in his hind legs (I adopted him off the track). Who knows if he would have sustained these injuries if he had better confo? Not sure, but I'm guaranteeing his conformation flaws didn't help him out any. I haven't really ridden him, so no idea what his gaits would be like under saddle. He isn't nearly as extreme as the examples posted above though. - that foal is just ridiculous - it almost looks photo-shopped.


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## Smilie

Agree that the foal is extreme, far as being postl legged, and can't imagine any judge using him, even in a halter class
Are there actual pictures of the horse in question, by the OP?
As 'straight in the end end, is a vage term, and could mean just correct aleignment, although the Op is asking it in context of pre disposition to lameness, so am led to believe, taking about post legged. And,no, that defect does not transfer to front legs, which can have their own defects, like offset knees, pasterns too straight, ect
For me, it, and what the OP needs to look at, is that hock angle:

if the joint angle between the upper leg bone and the cannon bone is more than 170 degrees. Viewed from the side, if a hind leg is too straight, a line dropped from the buttock falls in back of the cannon; the hock is set forward almost under the stifle; the leg as a whole is almost as straight as a fence post. The tibia (above the hock) is almost vertical, rather than having a normal 60 degree slope.

You can see, as to how 'open that joint angle is. (inside of hock )


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## Yogiwick

Smilie said:


> True sickle hocks can cause a soundness issues, such as curbs
> Any time limbs deviate from normal aliegnment, there is excess stress on a joint
> Simple engineering law
> 
> I did paste the info above, but since is is important, will  paste it again:
> 
> ''Sickle hocks
> 
> If a horse has too much bend at the hock joints (cannon bone sloped rather than vertical), this adds more stress and strain to the joint, and creates a type of conformation called sickle hocks. This hind leg structure makes a horse more likely to develop curb (enlargement of the tendon at the back of the hock due to excessive strain), bone spavin at the lower hock joints (enlargement on one or more of the hock bones), or bog spavin (permanent swelling in the soft tissues of the hock).


Absolutely, I don't mean to imply that there is no effect from sickle hocks. Just that comparative to other conformational issues there is less of a soundness problem. Sickle hocks are not uncommon and many horses have mild sickle hocks with absolutely no (obvious) soundness issues or long term ill effects. I would never choose a horse with anything more than very mild sickle hocks but wouldn't run away from one that did have them. I would choose sickle hocks over most other *mild* conformational defects. Just like a horse that is slightly over at the knee. Not a good thing, but better than one that is back, or has crooked legs, etc. Simply a lesser of two evils and one that in a mild form is often inconsequential. The horse I pictured I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole!
@Smilie I think the OP was simply asking to learn more about it.


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