# 3 day old Bay colt with silver legs, is he going to go grey??



## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

I have a newborn colt and he is a odd color he was born a red color with grey legs and black at the bottom by his grey hooves. His father is a grey Andalusian and his mother is a Bay Quarter horse. In the pictures you can’t really see his legs but I’ll try to get some when I get home. Do you guys think that he will grey out? The pictures of him out in the snow was on day one the one inside the barn is day 2. He also have white in his tail.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

At the moment he looks as if he is going to be bay. His leg colouring at the moment, if normal for bays. 

He might start to go grey but usually that begins to show with roaning around the eyes.

Please do not leave him unattended with that halter on nylon halters are dangerous on young foals as they will not break should they get snagged.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Aww I am hoping he is going to grey. Don’t worry I was working with him and took it off after I was done. 🙂 his mother was way lighter on the legs then him her legs were fawn his are grey so I found it a bit off.


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## AugustWarpony (Mar 9, 2019)

You will find out if he's going to go grey as he ages. They do it gradually. Even Lipizzaners who are white, are born dark. You have a good chance that he may, as a lot of the Spanish bred horses like his sire, carry the grey gene! Either way, he's beautiful!


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I'm just here for the pictures. LOL


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## rmissildine (Feb 1, 2019)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I'm just here for the pictures. LOL



Me too. 

But he is gorgeous. As he ages you may find that his color changes, could be from either side. Depends on which parent has the dominate genes.


Again, he is gorgeous, keep us updated....


Roger


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Thank you! 🙂 I hope so the stallion’s father was grey and mother was white and the colt’s mother’s father was black and mother was a red dun I believe.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

So the sire of this baby MAY be homozygous for grey....cute baby!


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Ya They never did a DNA test on the stud so they have no idea but I hope he is it would be really cool to have a grey since I already have my bay.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

These are of a foal out of a seal brown mare by a bay stallion. The legs can be anything from cream to fawn to grey. This horse has no grey possibility but the legs are very grey. Napping pic is hours old. The other is from day 3. The Andalusian has a base color that is being hidden by the grey. Depending on whether the mare (white would be completely greyed out) and the stallion each passed a gray gene to your foal's stallion your horse may have gotten grey or not. If both of the stallions parents passed grey to him then he is homozygous and baby will eventually grey out. Baby looks brown rather than bay. I have found grey legs to be more common with brown foal coats and the fawn or cream to be more common to bay foal coats.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hmm. I'm a little puzzled on the leg coloring because if I thought he was grey, I would expect his legs to be a little darker BUT I would say the white in the tail is a good sign, especially if it's white at the roots. On my one and only foal, the first sign of grey was at the roots of his tail, not his eye lashes which is supposed to be the typical way they start.


Let me see if I can find a photo of my baby right after birth. This little guy DID turn grey. And he was bay-based. Although for a while there I thought he was liver chestnut!


Oh, and a photo of him at age 8 with his dapples. :smile:


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Foals that grey, typically, are super saturated color wise. Note the legs on trailhorserider's foal are black not the typical lighter color.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Awww your foals are so gorgeous! Thank you for the reference pictures hmm maybe he is brown it’s really weird because he has very white hairs in the tail so maybe.. I’ll go get some more pictures of him I just got home from work. 🙂


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Here is him right now. Underneath his tail is all white and on top is black. What do you guys think? Couldn’t get a great shot of underneath his tail he gets a bit scared, sorry.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

In one picture he looks to have the "goggles" around his eyes that most grey foals have and his muzzle looks grey-ish in one pic. Not so sure in the others. So, I'm gonna say 1 grey parent = 50/50 chance he'll go grey.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

If there is also pangare present the nose, belly and underneath/sides of tails can be really creamy or white. Some bays also have that but not as pronounced. I'll look tomorrow for our bay foals as a couple had creamy coloring in the tails.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Here is a picture of his eye up close. His nose is starting to grey on top, but his nostrils are black. His tail is Snow White underneath. Thank you for all of the help so far. 🙂


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

The white in his tail is foal flaxen & is normal.

The light legs are foal camo & are normal.

Grey foals are nearly always born hyperpigmented with little to no foal camo.

In simple terms, this foal is bay


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

blue eyed pony said:


> The white in his tail is foal flaxen & is normal.
> 
> The light legs are foal camo & are normal.
> 
> ...


This. Genetically he has a 50/50 chance. Grey foals almost always fall into one of two categories 1) obviously going grey, big goggles around the eyes, this can be more subtle but is usually noticed around the eyes (white eyelashes) OR 2) no distinguishing grey marks, but the foal is hyper pigmented with an adult color to it vs the washed out normal bay foal coat. Great example of that posted.

He has no obvious grey and all his lighter markings are normal for a bay foal (a black foal is often a washed out grey all over! that's just how babies are) and he also is a nice light color, again normal for a bay foal. I see no indication of him turning grey. A color test would tell, as will time too. Personally I would consider him bay unless proven otherwise. I would not expect him to end up grey.


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## AnnaLover (Sep 27, 2009)

Definitely looks like he won't grey out! Adorable little guy, congrats


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Oh ok thank you I really appreciate it. I am thinking about getting a genetic test done on him, I’m curious as to how dark he will be. 🙂


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

No harm in testing, but really the only thing to test for is if grey or not if you want to be positive without waiting. Unfortunately something like the exact color or shade can't be tested they only test for the genes that create certain colors. So a light palomino looking chestnut and a dark liver chestnut will test the same since they are both chestnuts.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Good to know thank you! Do you guys know of any good places to test?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Animal Genetics or UC Davis! They're the most reliable labs, both fully accredited. They are a bit more expensive than certain other labs but WAY more reliable.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

^That!


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Awesome, thank you I will look into these labs!


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Oh ok. Is there a way to tell how dark he will be? It's really weird because he is starting to get white markings such as white is extending on his nose and he is getting a white streak on the edge of his eyes and his legs are getting whiter? I raised his mother from a foal and she never lightened like him. Also he has blue grey eyes that seem to be lightening instead of darkening. Thoughts?


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

This is the newest picture I took of him. His nose is also getting some grey. What do you guys think? Have you seen this in bay foals?


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Need another close up of his eye....that’s where my greys start...like 6 grey hairs over the eye! Cutie, though!


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

AthenaWisdom said:


> This is the newest picture I took of him. His nose is also getting some grey. What do you guys think? Have you seen this in bay foals?


That is pangare, also called mealy.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

Still bay!


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

I will try to get a close up of his eye tomorrow. Pangare can become lighter and prominent as the foal ages?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The gray muzzle is not hair that is skin. Unless they have white or are dilutes (double) skin will be dark. He is bay. He may have pangagre but that can also be foal camo. You'll know when he sheds. If I remember earlier pics I'm thinking brown which is a variant on the agouti gene.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

QtrBel said:


> I'm thinking brown which is a variant on the agouti gene.


Agouti has been fully mapped and the At/A+/A theory disproven. There is only A and a. If there is a genetic factor to bay vs brown vs wild bay it is not on the agouti locus.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Can you point me to that current research?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

I haven't read the study but was told this directly by a leading expert in the field. I'm in some fb groups dedicated to current, up to date information, populated by some actual scientists who are part of the research.

I tried to find the study itself but google scholar failed me...


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

What I have read was 2017 and latest early 2018. Most interesting was behavioral effects influenced by color. I figure tryp has something to do with it if they have successfully mapped and that they still need the A designation but it is like layers of colors "Layers" of genes produce different effects. The little I saw leading to confirmation was only with a tiny population but I haven't seen the latest.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Can his skin change color? Because his nose was all white when he was born...I finally was able to get pictures of his eyes. 🙂


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Brown. No grey. That white was hair from his foal coat. It is usually the first to shed off.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

He has beautiful grey eyes. 😻 shedding can start as early as 17 days old?


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Yes. It can. Depends on day length and genetics.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Awesome!!! Then I will get to see his true color soon! 😊


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## AndalusionTales (Dec 25, 2018)

Typically, if either parent are grey, the foal will be grey since the color grey is a dominant gene. Andalusian foals can be any color, except for bay, when born and still turn grey. The grey you see on the legs is what they call a mousy grey which usually means it's going to change color as it grows. The mouse grey, usually turns black as they get older. The foal has a lighter tummy and I don't see other black points in the pic to suggest bay, though there is a color of bay with low black points which is called a wild bay. Though some darken up once they shed out.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

AndalusionTales said:


> Typically, if either parent are grey, the foal will be grey since the color grey is a dominant gene. Andalusian foals can be any color, except for bay, when born and still turn grey.


Grey is passed like any other dominant gene: heterozygous = 50% chance of it passing the gene and homozygous = 100% chance. A foal born to heterozygous parents does not have to be grey.


Grey will affect any base color, including bay, regardless of the breed (though it can be hard to notice on a double dilute or max white for obvious reasons). Why would you expect PRE foals born bay not to turn grey?


This foal (JC Tiziano) was born bay and is clearly turning grey!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

To add to my post on March 24th - the muzzle loses first and or above the eyes sometimes because of rubbing when they nurse.


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## AndalusionTales (Dec 25, 2018)

http://www.spanishvisionfarm.com/Articles/Color/color_genetics_1.html

This is one article I found about it just now for reference.

This is just knowledge I grew up hearing otherwise from breeders which admittedly could use an update since the WWW has come into play. Lol

Ahh, the days and knowledge before the web. The things we knew then and what we know now!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

AndalusisnTales, I think you are missing the big picture. All horses have a base color. Some genes act independently some can't show with a combination of genes. The article you linked contains several errors in presentation. The grey gene is a dominant gene. When present the base color transitions to white over time. The genes that give the base color are still present just not phenotypically present after enough time has passed. A bay with either one or two grey genes will still be bay genetically but the dominant form of grey (G) will also be present.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That should have been without a combination of genes working together. A black horse has E_aa - all they need to be black is one copy of E. If they have Eeaa then they can pass that e and produce an ee if the second parent also has an e to pass (Ee or ee). The A or a representation on agouti determines bay. It works together with E. A chestnut/sorrel will be either AA, Aa or as. There will be no change in base but te animal when bred to a black can produce a bay if there is an A to pass and the foal inherits it. If the animal is AA then anytime bred to black will produce bay. All of this happens whether or not dominant grey is present.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

All really great information!! Thank you!


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Here are some updates of him he is starting to get a brown nose, do you guys think he will be a black bay?


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Also, is it normal for a bay foal to have blue eyes that are getting lighter?


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

AthenaWisdom said:


> Also, is it normal for a bay foal to have blue eyes that are getting lighter?


Most foals have baby blues. They will darken to brown. They don't always do it right away.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

And to your other question - foals' first shed is nearly always very dark and isn't at all indicative of adult shade. I've seen palomino foals shed out nearly black the first time, and then lighten back out to a lovely gold.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Oh ok good to know! His mother never did that so I found it really odd that he is darkening. I read on other forums that by now his eyes would be starting to darken but they are lightening. They used to be blue/grey now they are turning lighter and more like a crystal blue. Does that mean they are going to stay? He's a month and 8 days.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

No, blue eyes that stay blue are born a light ice/crystal blue. It can take a few months for brown eyes to darken. Even longer for amber/hazel eyes (which is just for your interest, your foal is not champagne so his eyes will be brown)


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The muzzle is showing skin color which is dark.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

My eventually fleabitten grey Arabian mare at birth:










At age two:



















At age six:



















At age 10:










At age 27:










You can click on these photos to enlarge, e.g. to see the flea-bitten appearance up close.

Intermediate to the photos of her at six and ten was a stage where her coat had greyed out like in the ridden photo, but her mane and tail were still jet black.

My mare was a heterozygous grey (one grey gene) and greyed out slowly. Homozygous greys (two grey genes) generally grey out totally or near-totally by maturity. 

If one of the parents is a homozygous grey and the other is not grey, the offspring will get one grey gene by default and as grey is a dominant characteristic, will be a (heterozygous) grey. If one of the parents is a heterozygous grey and the other is not grey, the chances of offsping getting a grey gene are 50%. 

Comparison photos of my brown riding horse Sunsmart as a foal and at maturity...

Newborn:




























A little older:



















All grown up, towering over his mother, with whom he was re-united in his teens:


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Ooh ok good to know thank you Blue Eyed Pony!


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Ooh my goodness SueC your horses are gorgeous!! Thank you for the comparison pictures, maybe I might still have a chance at getting grey...


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

But I am doubting it because he is starting to get a brown nose...maybe a black bay?


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

If I'm remembering correctly your foal looks about the same color as Gamble was as a foal so my guess is he'll end up looking along these lines color wise unless he did inherit gray.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Oh and I was going to post pictures of foals with blue eyes last night but got sidetracked. Just guessing here but I'm wondering if what you are seeing is the pupil which can look blue in bright light.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Well, the eyes didn't show up very well in these pictures but if you click on them you'll get a larger version where you can see them better.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

For reference, first is a bay foal, second is a grey colt. Full brothers, sire is EE aa and dam is ee AA Gg. First colt has a lot of light areas, around the face, nose, under belly, inside of legs, the entire underside of tail. Second colt has hyperpigmentation and took almost a year for the grey hairs to even start showing, almost 2 years before you could start telling something was off to his bay color in photos.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Ooh ok beautiful horses! Thank you for the references they have helped so much!


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## buckskinbaby (Aug 16, 2017)

@AthenaWisdom what is he looking like now? I'm curious!!!


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

Hey he is starting to shed his baby coat 🙂 His ears are a chocolate red color so maybe a dark bay 🙂 I'll post some pictures 😄


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

The up close picture of his ear is when it started to darken now his ears are fully the dark color 🙂


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

First foal shed is typically the darkest and isn't necessarily indicative of adult shade. It'd be lovely if every red foal that shed out nearly black liver would stay that shade, but most shed that colour and few keep it into adulthood.

So your cute little bay MIGHT grow up to be a dark bay, but it's equally possible for him to be your typical middle of the road bay, or even a light bay.


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## AthenaWisdom (Mar 9, 2019)

For me this is my first foal that I've had that's changing a darker color (other than the legs) on the body than the color that they were born with. It's so interesting watching him grow he is definitely going to be a handsome boy. 🙂 Thank you for all of your help. 🙂


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