# Natural H'ship, No Way ! (video)



## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

poor man probably thinks he has control of the situation


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

:shock: What in the world?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horsesdontlie (Mar 11, 2011)

Eh, I have seen a lot of trainers using a rope around the middle for 'bucking out' a horse. Here is clinton anderson using it. 






I personally have no problem with it. Honestly where I stand I saw nothing horribly wrong with what the guy was doing. I don't like how often he gets jerked around by the rope that is on the flank, but honestly I don't think I, or anyone for that matter could have avoided it. Yes the horse was having a violent reaction, but for one this is a video to only show the horrible parts. I am looking this guy up now to find more proof one way or the other. Maybe the horse turned out to be a wonderful horse under his supervision, or maybe it turned into a monster. Can't judge by that video. I am always very slow to judge because I have seen tons of people confront horse training / sports and will base facts off of limited information.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

The part that confused me (and the horse, too, by the looks of it) is where he was "charging" the horse when the horse wasn't doing anything seemingly wrong. It wasn't even like he was trying to change direction or anything; just kind of throwing himself at the horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Horsesdontlie said:


> Eh, I have seen a lot of trainers using a rope around the middle for 'bucking out' a horse. Here is clinton anderson using it.
> 
> YouTube - ‪NEW!! On FSN, Sunday July 10, 2011: A bucking problem is no match for Clinton and the Method.‬‏
> 
> I personally have no problem with it. Honestly where I stand I saw nothing horribly wrong with what the guy was doing. I don't like how often he gets jerked around by the rope that is on the flank, but honestly I don't think I, or anyone for that matter could have avoided it. Yes the horse was having a violent reaction, but for one this is a video to only show the horrible parts. I am looking this guy up now to find more proof one way or the other. Maybe the horse turned out to be a wonderful horse under his supervision, or maybe it turned into a monster. Can't judge by that video. I am always very slow to judge because I have seen tons of people confront horse training / sports and will base facts off of limited information.


agree totally. I am not sure what he was trying to achieve when the horse had the saddle on tho....that confused me also.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

I've seen several BNT's use a lariat to prepare the horse for girth and flank pressure, including CA and Dennis Reis. My understanding of the point is that it's like another level of desensitization, beyond tossing the rope all over the horse. The horse in the video was reacting pretty dramatically, but the video was clearly edited for dramatic effect. It's hard to pass judgment over training ability based on videos like that. All shock value, and no information.

What exactly he was trying to accomplish in the clips where the horse is saddled, though, I have no idea. The thing that concerns me most about the entire display is that he seems to have the horse's head tied down in a few shots - with what I can't quite tell; too much dust and too much movement for my early morning eyes to spot it, lol. IMHO, if the horse is that willing to buck, then "headset" shouldn't be a factor at all, much less to the point that the horse is put in some sort of gadget to fix it.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

This method is certainly crude and a demonstration of a lack of real horsemanship expertise or knowledge. However it is an effective method of 'training' and a common one.

Trainers i have seen use this include Pat Parelli, Clinton Anderson, Chris Cox, Craig Cameron, Buck Branaman and Monty Roberts.

Monty ties them down with what he calls the 'buck stopper' then asks them to go forward and try to buck. Much like what was being done here when he chases the horse away, saddled and tied down.


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## bobtwotracker (Jul 9, 2011)

christopher said:


> poor man probably thinks he has control of the situation


He's being tossed around like a rag doll.. clearly he doesn't know what he's doing. This is the type of trainer that makes horses dangerous and problematic.


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## bobtwotracker (Jul 9, 2011)

Sunny said:


> The part that confused me (and the horse, too, by the looks of it) is where he was "charging" the horse when the horse wasn't doing anything seemingly wrong. It wasn't even like he was trying to change direction or anything; just kind of throwing himself at the horse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The horse was bitted up laterally when he charged the horse. Makes no sense to spook a horse when it's bitted up. Only causes the head to go up and the bit to cut into the horse's bars. The horse definitely had a sour mouth after that one I'm sure.


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

I understand what they guy is trying to do.... 

Google Toah Hatch he works with rescues in arizona...

I think this is yellow editing on someones part.... i'd like to see more of the part where the bay is saddled and he is moving it out of his space.

either he made someone mad or something he was on extreme mustang makeover. 

the flank rope he's ruining that horses career in PRCA rough stock events, take notice he has flank rope on and it's jumping the barrels... i'm going to take this video with a grain of salt untill i see more of this guy.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I've seen live demonstration by Cris Cox using the rope around the belly on bucker. He definitely did a very good job with it, the whole thing was done very calm, horse didn't look POed, and he got on horse right after that and horse didn't even try to buck. However he also said there has to be perfect timing and this method is NOT for the beginner (or someone unfamiliar with it).


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## bobtwotracker (Jul 9, 2011)

ledge said:


> I understand what they guy is trying to do....
> 
> Google Toah Hatch he works with rescues in arizona...
> 
> ...


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I would like to know why the OP refers to this as NH? Because they don't like NH and also don't like this training technique? Or perhaps because if you put NH in the title more people may read it and react? Like it or not, this technique works. See above posts.

I looked up Toah Hatch, and in the google matches I came up with it never refers to him as an NH trainer! He was trained by his Grandfather who was a roping trainer. 

I am in favor of good horsemanship (whether it comes under the guise of NH or not), I am also NOT a fan of bad, NH or not. But I do not label something NH just because it might get a reaction on a forum, since it is such an emottional topic.:wink:


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

It definitely works! I've had a few knuckleheads comment that I was just "making them worse" or "teaching them how to buck" when using this trick. So anymore I won't even do it when people are around. The truth is, it makes the first ride much safer and works wonders on old horses that are flanky. We've broke lots of SB and BB horses that didn't buck well enough and always used this technique. My wife won't get on a horse unless I've done this to them. You DO have to be responsible with it or you'll get them hurt.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This tactic is completely unnecessary if a trainer introduces a girth and then a saddle slowly, does not scare a horse with it and does not let the horse learn to buck as his reaction to a girth and a rider.

But, when a horse has already learned how to buck and has gotten quite good a bucking people off, this method is very effective in teaching him 'after the fact' that bucking is not a pleasant trip for him.

Ray Hunt was the first person I saw using this method and as far as I know, he only used it on spoiled horses that already had a bucking problem. I believe that is the same with the modern clinicians that I have watched. Once a horse has learned to unload riders, you have to do something to 'break the cycle' or you have an unsafe bronc that bucks a rider off anytime it suits them better than being ridden. 

When I used to get in so many spoiled horses to retrain for the public, I did this to the confirmed buckers. Without some good reason to quit bucking, they were headed for the slaughter plant anyway, so I guess it beat the alternative. Two that it did not work on headed to the PRCA (RCA back then) rodeo string and one of those was still bucking 10 years later. Most buckers just buck hard enough to get their average riders of but not hard enough to get paid for it. 

Like all other 'pressure and release' techniques, it requires perfect timing. You pull on the flank rope as long as the horse is bucking and kicking and the instant he quits and just runs, you quit pulling. You have to do this several times on confirmed buckers. You do it every time you saddle them up for a while. You can give it up when they give it up. When you saddle them up fresh and they just let you longe them by the flank rope without bucking or kicking, they are usually done with it.

BTW, 'yellow editing' is when someone with an agenda edits out bits and pieces of several tapes to make someone look bad. This is something that HSUS and PETA are very good at doing. You can make anyone and anything look very bad if you take bits and pieces and put them together with an agenda.


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

Exactly Cherie,

I introduce the flank with the one clinton item i use his progress string that goes on his golf club stick to tie around the flanks to get them used to it.


As for NH title... its a buzz word a lot use to sell their training, they add it to their business cards to get more business, not that they have changed their style of training.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I agree with Horsesdontlie, franknbeans, and cherie. There is nothing wrong with the method of the rope around the flank (or even around the butt and under the tail), you just have to know how to properly use it for it to be effective. That is not something I would do on a typical young horse because I don't want them to buck even once if I can avoid it. However, on those that are very willing to buck, it works.

In that video, it is really hard to see enough to make a final judgement one way or the other. I've dealt with some horses that had been spoiled and they would react to a regular saddling much like this horse did to the flank rope; they would start bucking and come right toward you because that is what they'd been taught. If you didn't either get yourself out of the way fast enough or get them away from you, they were perfectly content to just buck right over the top of you. That may be the type of horse he's dealing with, we don't know.

It _is_ yellow editing done by someone just looking for a ":shock:OMG" reaction from people who don't know better. The fact is, anyone with a lick of sense knows that you can't tell anything about someone's training from a video of 1-5 second clips strung together. Sometimes it gets dramatic and everything doesn't always look all smooth and perfect.


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

I forgot to mention the rope under the tail.... I've seen a few Roper's have wrecks when the rope got under the tail.

I like to do the flank rope sadly though it will ruin their career as a bronc for the rodeo.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I'm not for or against NH, I use some techniques myself but not all. I usually like to check out different techniques, trainers, etc... I take what works for me and my horse and leave the rest behind.

I adore my horse. We all have recently stopped calling him green, and he has been holding his own at local "schooling" shows. That said....If I tried ANY of the above techniques on him....especially the one with the rope around the flanks... he would act much worse than that horse and I would probably get my head kicked in! I have no clue what those techniques were supposed to train the horse to do??????


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

Cinnys 

That is part of a progression, you prepare for the flanking out (as i call it) by the time i get to that point I have already established several other steps.... I wouldn't take a young never touched horse and introduce him to my flag on day one, I will do the "join up" thing.... Horses are like us we had to learn the alphabet before we learned to spell, learned to spell before we learned to write (still working on the spelling myself!!!)


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

ledge said:


> Cinnys
> 
> That is part of a progression, you prepare for the flanking out (as i call it) by the time i get to that point I have already established several other steps.... I wouldn't take a young never touched horse and introduce him to my flag on day one, I will do the "join up" thing.... Horses are like us we had to learn the alphabet before we learned to spell, learned to spell before we learned to write (still working on the spelling myself!!!)


I don't mean to sound snarky, I'm truely curious. Does this mean that my horse is missing part of his training because nobody has ever done this portion with him? Is this bad, and is this a basic that maybe I should go back to?


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

No not at all, all horses are different and require different progressions, i was just saying with anything you train a horse to do its a progression... whether you are watching those guys on RFD or specializing in your discipline..... mostly it comes down to the amount of sweat equity you put into the horse, I've learned the more I work with the horse the better we both get.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I have no clue what those techniques were supposed to train the horse to do??????


If they are done properly, then they desensitize a horse to pressure all over their body and teach them that they aren't going to get hurt so there is no reason for them to buck. I've seen lots of people get bucked off (and some of them hurt bad) because their cinch hobble broke on their saddle and their back cinch slid back into the horse's flank, or like Ledge said, a horse gets a rope under their tail during ranch work or roping. If a horse has never had pressure there before and learned that, while it may be uncomfortable, bucking/kicking is not an appropriate response, then people can get seriously hurt.

It's not something that you do instantly on the very first time you handle them, they are prepared for it first. I usually use my hands at first and, after they are used to being touched everywhere, I will apply pressure to one side of a horse's flank. Most of them just look at you like "What are you doing, you nut" or, at worst, pin their ears and pick up a hind leg in a half-assed threat of kicking. But, if you take a bit of time and work with them, then when you do use the flank rope, they may bring their head up and tilt their ears, but most of them don't kick or buck. Same thing with the tail rope. They are comfortable with me touching all around/under their tail before I ever bring the rope into it.

Just like this filly. She reacted better than some but it was a pretty typical reaction that I get. She kinda clamped her butt for a minute and ran a little faster until she figured out that it didn't really hurt, then she just trotted out like nothing was there. Because I did that, the chance of her bucking off her owner in the event that something gets stuck under her tail is much less than it would have been.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Okay, I get it. Cin is used to some of that stuff, I've put ropes just about anywhere on him...but he just can't get over anything going around his flanks. We have now been working with a Western trail saddle without buck but I don't dare put a back cinch on him. When I tried my friend's saddle on him I made the mistake of leaving the back cinch on even though she told me I should take it off until he's used to it and well.... He looked like that horse in the video for about half hour straight. I couldn't even stop him long enough to to get the saddle off or do anything, all I could do was helplessly stand there and make sure the lunge line stayed out from under him.


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

sounds like you can start him in the round pen with a string around the flanks.... lunge him just don't be scared if he crow hops or bucks a bit, just keep him moving he'll learn that the string isn't some tiger or bear on his back trying to cripple him. then you can move to a western saddle with properly fit back cinch

i'm sure if you ask around you my find someone close to help if you need but sounds like you got things under control.


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## AmazinCaucasian (Dec 10, 2010)

A twisted nylon (team roping) rope works good for me. It will open up better when you give them slack. That's why I like this technique so well; if they get in a wreck you can throw the slack to 'em and it's over. We used to practice saddle bronc with a rope around the flank because you can practice by yourself and if you get unseated, just give them slack and they quit. You'd be surprised how many horses that are considered well broke will kick up. Anyway, I try to do it in a larger arena and keep them in the middle (away from the fence).


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## ponyjocky (Apr 12, 2010)

lol people have been roping around the flank to get a horse tired for ever.... its not abusive. i tried it on a hackney once. The pony wasnt spooks, saddle fit it, would let you sit on her, but if you asked her to move would go into a dangerous bucking fit. ITS NOT ABUSIVE.


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## ZRanch (Jul 20, 2011)

*This video is a lie and video stolen off the internet.*



bobtwotracker said:


> Does this tactic of training qualify as natural horsemanship ? I think NOT ! This is one training video that really disturbed me.
> 
> YouTube - ‪Poor horse training‬‏


This video was taken at my house in my round pen. The person who created the video stole the video from the horse's owner's facebook page or off of YouTube and then proceeded to clip the video to make Toah Hatch look bad.
This is NOT a true representation of what happened that day and the person who made the video should be ashamed of themselves. They created a lie to try and make someone look bad out of spite.
Toah DID give the mare release and the mare responded very well to the training that day as well as all the other lessons.
I have also personally taken lessons from Toah and he is a very good instructor and very gentle and in tune with both horse and rider.


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

Thank you for some clarification I could tell from the video it was some weird editing job. I just hate to see people slandered, this video is the same style PETa or the ALF would do.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

To answer one of the other questions, as to why he shooed the horse away while the horse was saddled - it looked as if the horse was very slightly flexed in side reins to teach her how to give to the bit. Because it's so slight it was hard to see. When he shooed the horse, it was to encourage the horse to move; the first time or two that they try to walk away while flexed some horses will get upset. This is not uncommon and helps teach the horse to flex and give to the bit and use the thinking side of her brain, as CA would say, without having the rider aboard.


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## scenestorm (Jul 20, 2011)

Um I'm sure this guy is training a bucking horse... like what else would he be doing??


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

;-) Training a bucking horse, yes, but not training a horse to buck... :


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

Actually if he does what he's doing correctly he'll ruin that horse's bucking horse career


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## Buckcherry (Nov 18, 2010)

IMO if a horse is well trained and desensitized then they would have no reason to act that way when you put a cinch or girth on them. I really like CA methods and have seen how they work first hand it's all about building trust and respect from your horse and if you have that from them they won't want to do the wrong thing. 

Its about making the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy. I think it can be very effective in the right hands. 

But you never know about videos online, because there is always going to be someone trying to make someone else look bad because they don't agree with their traininig techniques.


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## ledge (May 23, 2011)

While desensitizing the flanks, I have seen a gambit of responses from PRCA Bronc contender to okay this thing around my flanks is supposed to bother me.

Generally most horses will give crow or bunny hops or even a few bucks.... once they learn that A) that thing around there flanks wont hurt them or B) eat them they generally realize it just tickles.

I normally use that little string that came off the CA stick someone had to buy.... then i can progress to my 30' ring rope around the middle of the horse


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## kywalkinghorse2010 (Dec 9, 2010)

I have seen CA do that on a few of his shows and I understand the point in it. I've also noticed that its mainly western style trainers that use this method. I understand that its for getting the horse used to the rear cinch and getting it used to pressure on its flank. But, unless the person is going to be using a rear cinch, its really rather pointless. The thing I have an issue with in the video is how the horse is being charged at like it was doing something wrong. I personally didn't see it doing anything wrong.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

The point of the flank rope is to get a bucker to stop bucking. The horse soon realizes that it's a lot of work to buck & that when it stops bucking the pressure is gone. I've seen this work. Eventually a horse will just stand there or keep moving without bucking even if little tugs are put on the rope. The initial explosion doesn't last long.


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

My first impression was that must be a horse with problems, not how he would start an unspoiled horse. And obviously someone edited out anything where the horse relaxed and the trainer looked good. Probably a horse people messed up and he was trying to give it a chance to avoid the slaughter house.


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## elnaturel (Jul 28, 2011)

I wonder why someone would put this on youtube, i like the idea that he is trying to get his horse a custom to ropes around their flanks, that would be a plus, the rest................well?


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## elnaturel (Jul 28, 2011)

how do you set it up to put up a youtube video like this thread?
thx


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