# Pinto Colouring Probability?



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Hello Everyone, 

I am new to this forum and I have a mare that I am planning on breeding. I'm wondering if anyone is knowledgeable in how exactly the genetics on this one would work? My horse Lilly's sire was a Bay Tovero, (heterozygous for Bay, not sure about the Tovero part) and her Dam a Sorrel Anglo-Arab. Lilly ended up being a solid bay. The stallion I am breeding her to in the Spring is a black tobiano, heterozygous for both black and tobiano. Does anyone know what my odds would be of getting Paint colour? Does it matter that she carries the paint genes? Or would her being solid discredit that? I've read about so many different factors, my head is spinning, so any insight would be appreciated.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Any chance you could post a picture of your mare so we can see what she has going on? 

If you really want to know exactly what she has, you can have her tested for what genes she carries. UC Davis does testing.


----------



## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

Your probably going to get a lot of comments that are going to hurt your feelings on this subject.
Not every horse should be bred. Is your horse's conformation, temperment etc so good that you are going to be adding to the breed. There are so many unwanted horses in the world, why add another.


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Here are some pictures. I realize she is incredibly fat here... She really didn't inherit any type of pinto/paint colouring whatsoever. Aside from having a spot on her lower lip, she is pretty much a clone of her mom for markings.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Pinto patterns can be very mysterious  A "solid" horse with "normal" white markings still has at least one pinto pattern, as every bit of white is caused by one of them (except scarring, but that's different lol). I can see that your mare has at least two - sabino and splash. Sabino because of the lip spot, and the way the face white is so even, splash because of how even the white on her legs is.

I would definitely test her for frame, also known as lethal white overo. Her test results in that would greatly influence what stallions you could breed her to. If she does carry frame, then you would not want to breed her to a stallion that also carries frame, as they have a 25% chance of producing a lethal white foal, which will die within about 72 hours of birth.


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

chandra1313 said:


> Your probably going to get a lot of comments that are going to hurt your feelings on this subject.
> Not every horse should be bred. Is your horse's conformation, temperment etc so good that you are going to be adding to the breed. There are so many unwanted horses in the world, why add another.


I'm not really sure what to make of your comment as I don't know what you mean by "adding to the breed." Lilly does have a few conformation faults, however, she has an extremely sweet temperament and is very intelligent. The stallion to whom I've chosen to breed her has excellent conformation and disposition and was highpoint sr stock stallion, highpoint tobiano color horse and supreme colour champion in the 2005 Canadian Pinto National Show. Perhaps I should have clarified that I am not looking only for colour. If I get another solid foal, it will be just as wanted and loved as the one I currently have.


----------



## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Glynnis said:


> I'm not really sure what to make of your comment as I don't know what you mean by "adding to the breed." Lilly does have a few conformation faults, however, she has an extremely sweet temperament and is very intelligent. The stallion to whom I've chosen to breed her has excellent conformation and disposition and was highpoint sr stock stallion, highpoint tobiano color horse and supreme colour champion in the 2005 Canadian Pinto National Show. Perhaps I should have clarified that I am not looking only for colour. If I get another solid foal, it will be just as wanted and loved as the one I currently have.
> 
> Well, I've posted some pictures. Her conformation is fair - she does have a few faults, like she's a bit


Are you Canadian?


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Pinto patterns can be very mysterious  A "solid" horse with "normal" white markings still has at least one pinto pattern, as every bit of white is caused by one of them (except scarring, but that's different lol). I can see that your mare has at least two - sabino and splash. Sabino because of the lip spot, and the way the face white is so even, splash because of how even the white on her legs is.
> 
> I would definitely test her for frame, also known as lethal white overo. Her test results in that would greatly influence what stallions you could breed her to. If she does carry frame, then you would not want to breed her to a stallion that also carries frame, as they have a 25% chance of producing a lethal white foal, which will die within about 72 hours of birth.


Thank you for your reply! I had no idea about the sabino and splash markings! Her dam (who was an Arab) had the same white socks on the hind legs, but they were not even at all like Lilly. I didn't know that was considered a paint characteristic. Very interesting.


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Nokotaheaven said:


> Are you Canadian?


I am indeed.


----------



## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Glynnis said:


> I am indeed.


Haha thought so  I am too!


----------



## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

If she has conformation faults then she can pass that along to her babies. I should have said improving the breed, not adding sorry.


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Pinto patterns can be very mysterious  A "solid" horse with "normal" white markings still has at least one pinto pattern, as every bit of white is caused by one of them (except scarring, but that's different lol). I can see that your mare has at least two - sabino and splash. Sabino because of the lip spot, and the way the face white is so even, splash because of how even the white on her legs is.
> 
> I would definitely test her for frame, also known as lethal white overo. Her test results in that would greatly influence what stallions you could breed her to. If she does carry frame, then you would not want to breed her to a stallion that also carries frame, as they have a 25% chance of producing a lethal white foal, which will die within about 72 hours of birth.


Also, regarding lethal white, her sire tested negative for it and the stallion I have selected is also not a carrier. Again, I appreciate your insight.


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Nokotaheaven said:


> Haha thought so  I am too!


Where in Canada? I'm from Alberta.


----------



## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

The overo part she gets from her sire is recessive so she may be carrying that and pass it on.

She also may have a tobiano baby if she gets the tobiano gene from the stallion you plan to breed her to.

Do you have any idea what this stallion you plan to breed her to has already thrown? Lots of color? Tobianos? What about off solid mares? What is his percentage of coloured babies off solid mare?

This will help you figure out your percentage of a coloured baby.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Red Gate Farm said:


> The overo part she gets from her sire is recessive so she may be carrying that and pass it on.


The underlined part is not true. None of the genes lumped under the ambiguous term of "overo" are recessive.


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Glynnis said:


> Also, regarding lethal white, her sire tested negative for it and the stallion I have selected is also not a carrier. Again, I appreciate your insight.


No worries. I would much rather remind someone who is already aware of it and come off as condescending than not warn someone and have them breed unknowingly


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

chandra1313 said:


> If she has conformation faults then she can pass that along to her babies. I should have said improving the breed, not adding sorry.


Absolutely she can pass these traits on to her offspring. But I don't see what difference my single horse's conformation would make to the entire Pinto breed. I don't show anymore, I ride for recreation. The stallion I've selected and booked her with has excellent conformation. Hopefully the flaws that she has will not be inherited by her foal, although I don't think any of her flaws are terrible. My two greatest priorities are health and personality. Looks are secondary. Unless the foal has faults that will be detrimental to its well-being, I'm not too concerned.


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> No worries. I would much rather remind someone who is already aware of it and come off as condescending than not warn someone and have them breed unknowingly


Not condescending at all! I'm pretty new to this, so more information is better than no information!


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Red Gate Farm said:


> The overo part she gets from her sire is recessive so she may be carrying that and pass it on.
> 
> She also may have a tobiano baby if she gets the tobiano gene from the stallion you plan to breed her to.
> 
> ...


According to the stallion owner, so far he has thrown about 80% colour from solid mares, and yes, all Tobiano. There have been some Tovero coloured ones, but only when he's been bred to an Overo. He hasn't yet sired any solid foals from Paint coloured mares.


----------



## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Glynnis said:


> Where in Canada? I'm from Alberta.


I'm in Ontario


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Do you have a link to the stallion's page?


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Do you have a link to the stallion's page?


Sure do. Karma Ridge Stables - Painted Coos APHA #4060181997 APHA/PtHA Stallion(Coosunga X Lances Flash Back) PEDIGREE


----------



## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

kk that makes it easy now 

50% chance of tobiano from the sire. I would also say he has some form of sabino, so probably a 75% chance of sabino in some form on the foal. 50% chance of splash from dam. All three of these can be present at once, so chances are really good for a foal with a white patterning gene.

However, this does not guarantee a baby with an extensive expression of any of these genes. We know there are some sort of white suppression genes in horses, and their inheritance is not understood at this point. We see homozygous tobiano horses, for example, who have two small socks on back feet and no other white on their body. So while the genes are there, they may just manifest as "normal" white markings.


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Thank you! That helps clarify some things. I know there is no 100% guarantee for colour in this case and if I don't get colour, I can still register the foal with CptHA as breeding stock anyway. It would be nice, but colour is not a necessity for me. I'm more concerned with health and temperament.


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

chandra1313 said:


> If she has conformation faults then she can pass that along to her babies. I should have said improving the breed, not adding sorry.


I've yet to see a horse with NO conformation faults- it's a matter of picking the horses with minimal faults to breed. The goal of a responsible breeder should be to balance out those minor conformation faults that do exist on the horses they decide to breed by picking an appropriate match, while at the same time paying just as much attention to temperament, genetic diseases, and (for some breeds, like Paint) color.


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Also, thought I'd point out to OP- your horse isn't just bay, she's brown: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/badass-brown-92038/


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Really? I've always been told she is Bay! I read the post about "badass browns." Do you happen to know what the actual difference is between Bay and Brown? I've done some research on it, but it seems difficult to differentiate between the two. I've included some photos from her in previous years, although these are about 4 years old. She looks more "bayish" in these ones. The other reason why I suspected Bay is because her sire was heterozygous dominant for Bay. Her dam was a sorrel.


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Visually, the difference between bay and brown is that brown horses have lighter orangey-red 'soft' points (muzzle, behind the elbow, flank) They also tend to vary a lot more seasonally than bay horses, with the soft points being most obvious in the winter coat. In the summer coat, many brown horses lighten and can look just like bay horses, which is one example of why it's best to have winter pictures (or better yet winter and summer) pictures of a horse when trying to determine it's true color. Most horses that people call dark bay or seal bay are actually brown.

Genetically, both 'bay' and 'brown' are variations of agouti- the "bay gene," which restricts the expression of black on an otherwise black-based horse. Chestnut horses can carry agouti, but they don't express it because they have no black to be restricted. 

When you see results for a horse that's been color tested, they usually look something like Ee AA: the 'E' represents the Extension gene (e for red, E for black) and the 'A' is the agouti gene. A horse with two 'a' genes does not carry agouti; 'A' is classic bay, and 'At' is brown (there's also a 3rd variation called wild bay which is marked 'A+' but there is no test for this one yet) There's currently only one lab that can test for 'At' (PetDNA), so if you test with another facility like UC Davis, they can differentiate between 'a' and 'not-a', but not between 'A' and 'At'. 'At' is dominant over 'A', so if a horse is genetically At/At, At/A or At/a, he will be visually a brown horse.


----------



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Verona A is dominate over At and At is dominate over A+.


----------



## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> The underlined part is not true. None of the genes lumped under the ambiguous term of "overo" are recessive.


Learn something new every day.:wink:


----------



## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Well that is very interesting indeed. She's registered as Bay, do you think its worth having this changed to Brown? Also, her sire was Tovero and only had a medicine hat, and no other colouring on his face and minimal around his flanks, so it's quite possible that he was registered Bay and was actually brown? I have a copy of his genetic report (done at UC Davis) and the only thing I recognize is Aa. The rest is all greek to me. I don't have any information on her dam's colouring or what markers she carried, however, being a sorrel, I know she at least had ee. Now I'm contemplating having Lilly tested... just for fun, to see what the result is. I find genetics fascinating.


----------



## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Verona A is dominate over At and At is dominate over A+.


Ah, you're right >.< Ignore that part of my post. A visually brown horse would be At/At or At/a.


----------

