# Frustrated by anxious horse



## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

How absolutely frustrating! As the owner of a reactive horse, I sympathize greatly.

It sounds like you have done a very good job ruling out medical issues. My only other thought along those lines would be testing for Magnesium and Vitamin E levels.. but honestly I think that is a stretch since her anxiety isn't constant.

I agree with your instructor that Ursula's issue sounds emotional. Some horses just cannot deal with mounting pressure and I am not sure that having more time to work with her would necessarily solve that issue, as it sounds like you have come leaps and bounds from where you started already. More time may lessen the severity of the reaction perhaps, but I don't think you can eliminate it totally.

My horse Phin is extremely reactive. He started as a spook, spin and bolter and over the course of several years has progressed to a startle or maybe a small hop sideways. While this is a great improvement over how he was to start with, it's still got the potential to put me on the ground. While some things I can predict his reaction to (loud noises), other times I am caught totally off guard (deer literally falling out of the underbrush and crashing at our feet, not a problem; a medium-sized rock on the side of the trail that wasn't there last time, horror!). 

I often ride with a heart rate monitor, so its been fascinating to see that even though his outward reaction to scary things has seemed to improve, his heartrate still skyrockets. At the start of a ride, a friend once commented on how chill he was compared to years ago, walking along on a loose rein as we warmed up, but she couldn't feel the coiled spring I was sitting on or see his heartrate of 170 bpm reading on my watch. So I have not taught him to be less anxious, I have simply taught him a different way to handle that fear. Phin is never going to be non-reactive.

If Ursula starts getting anxious, can you diffuse her by changing up what you are doing or is any ongoing stimulation too much? Perhaps taking a 5 minute timeout to focus on something else (even hopping off to do groundwork or some light massage) could keep her from hitting her boiling point?


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

Jesus what you wrote is making ME stressed! I am also having to find a solution to my own mares spooky behaviour which is very uncharacteristic of her - or was. I am fortunate though that we dont have any mounting or dismounting shenanigans because that would terrify me. I personally am anxious mounting ANY horse anyway as I feel so vulnerable so I spent MANY MANY sessions just working on mounting and dismounting. She went from trotting off before your leg was over to now standing still like babe. 

Now as for the spooking what has helped me is the one rein stop or circling, practising both directions. I really only use them as absolute last measures. I had her bolt badly after a tractor backfired in a field next to the trail. But as hindsight is 20/20 and with the help of many posters here I came to realise there were several other factors involved; being in heat, picking up contact before a bridge, lack of good vision of the field itself due to foliage. It was a true, terrified bolt not just a jolly down the lane. Ever since then I have made sure that I work on my one rein stop on both sides in a safe environment both from a walk and trot. I had to work my way up to trot. Sometimes she does want to break out into a canter but these days I catch it early and we're A-OK. IF I had space and it was safe I'd be much happier to work a larger space but you just have to deal with what you have in the moment. You do have to train the one rein stop otherwise you risk them being unbalanced. I have had some dicey moments but they have been 10x more manageable since practising these and made me 100x more confident. It used to really stress me out. I do ofc stress - I think most of us recreational riders would tbh - but it's not like my heart is tickling my tonsils. 

Arm yourself with tools to help YOU cope. I also am now hardcore working on my flexibility and balance every. single. day. just to be a better rider and more agile. Lastly, it's OK to just work on mounting. The other day I got on her bareback which took 5 minutes of convincing before she was still as a statue (she actually threatened to buck the one person who tried it before me but she sort of hopped on without warning and a bony bum. I've ridden bareback plenty times no issues myself). I was on her for 30 seconds. Then I got off. That was it. Our entire session. I don't compete so really just do as I fancy. It makes me feel better and she also learns that mounting doesn't always lead to difficult workouts or scary hacks. 

@phantomhorse13 your post is incredibly reassuring, in knowing that we're not alone. I am interested about this heart rate business. Might invest in one myself out of curiosity... or should I. Hah!

I look forward to seeing other responses and your own progress OP. You're not alone!


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

phantomhorse13 said:


> How absolutely frustrating! As the owner of a reactive horse, I sympathize greatly.
> 
> It sounds like you have done a very good job ruling out medical issues. My only other thought along those lines would be testing for Magnesium and Vitamin E levels.. but honestly I think that is a stretch since her anxiety isn't constant.


If you have the budget to try out Magnesium, I encourage it. My mare Minnie has a lot of fear, and is still getting over her anxieties. When I first got her and still occasionally, she will tremble when I enter her 'bubble' whether it be during brushing, haltering, or just visiting. Whenever we have a setback in our progress, whether it be because of Minnie scaring herself or something spooking her at just the right moment, it would take us quite a bit to get back to where we were.

When I brought her home, the first thing I ordered was Magnesium 5000 from SmartPak. I noticed a difference in her general anxiety, and the number of incidences that we would have with scary things lessened greatly. When she does spook at something, it seems a lot less extreme. I was willingly to have her second ride be on the trails, which I never thought we would be doing if you were to ask me a few months ago. We were able to walk past a scary scrap metal pile with nothing more than a glance, and when one of the dogs ran into her hinds legs by accident she only scooted her butt up a little.

A 160 day supply of the Magnesium 5000 is only $70, so it could be worth a try. There are shorter day supply options, I just opted for something that would get me through the summer riding season, and really see if it helped at all.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

You're saying that her mental state is what has caused the issues, such as her being anxious or worked up before the spooks. Yet both the mounting and the lawn mower sound rather sudden. 

Do you feel these were after her being worked up beforehand? Or would they have spooked her anyway?
If you can see it coming, and it's such a rare thing, I'd just suggest not working with her when she seems to be upset like that. Maybe you could skip one occurrence and cut it down to every four years...? By then she'll be so much older and more experienced. It might never happen again.

From how you describe your horse, I think you would be hard pressed to find another one with less issues. I think of my current horse as not very spooky, and he spooks at least every couple weeks or so. 

It's more difficult for me to give advice, because I'll accept a hard spook with the risk of falling off every week or two, and would be thrilled if it happened every year or two. 

One thing I would suggest for a horse that remains worked up and has issues after the spook happens. If she spooks, try not to react and instead make everything calm again. Even if you fall off. Don't think you need to keep working her or make her do difficult things. That will only cement it into her brain that this is a bad experience. What she needs is calmness so she can realize she overreacted. If you try to make her work through it, or keep going while she is not calm, this will create issues that last longer. 

It might seem like you are rewarding a horse if you take them out grazing or let them stop a ride after a spook. But you're talking about a horse that gets upset very rarely, and can't think when she is upset. She won't connect that. Instead, you'll teach her that calmness can follow quickly after being scared. Horses want to know "is this a big deal, or not a big deal?" The last thing you want is to make them think it is a big deal.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, firstly, while if she's fine generally, I think it's less likely an issue that she's deficient, I agree with others who have suggested extra magnesium. Also I'd consider the rest of her diet/nutritional balance, reactivity to toxins in grass etc, as this can cause 'behavioural issues'.



kiltsrhott said:


> I just can't keep going through this. I can't afford to keep falling off when she spooks like that. I can't afford the medical bills, or missed time off work. I'm usually a pretty solid rider. I'm 30 and have been riding since I was a kid. I could count on one hand the number of times I fell off before I got Ursula but she's about doubled that number with her anxiety.


To the first bit, I understand that attitude & fear. You are riding a large prey animal who doesn't have the ability for rational thought, with her own instincts, attitudes, emotions, so you just have to weigh that up yourself regarding riding ANY horse. But if your horse is wonderful doing all sorts & only tends to have a bad reaction to something every 2 years - IMO that's great & I'd consider that a very safe horse(good luck finding a better replacement), as much as that lable can apply to any. That she seems to 'overreact' for so long afterwards seems to be the big issue? Maybe that's her, maybe it's you & how you go about things.

So... you fell off 5 times by about 21yo & you have fallen off 10 times in the last 9 years. Doesn't sound too bad to me. But, esp as I get older, I'm less willing to risk falls too. You can't 'proof' your horse to every single thing, there will always be risk. But you can cut down on that 'count' by avoiding doing things that stress her out, or that are higher risk, and you can avoid riding her if she is stressed.



> I've noticed she's most likely to spook when she's anxious about something, like a particularly challenging lesson, or a break in her routine.


It is one thing to work on improving, to challenge, but if the horse becomes anxious with lessons, something's not right. Perhaps you're asking for too much, too soon, perhaps it's going on too long, too intense, or your timing's out or she's otherwise not getting enough reinforcement. Perhaps for some reason she physically can't do what you want, or it's hurting.. If she isn't reinforced/doesn't understand/can't do something, she will become confused, frustrated, anxious, reactive if you keep asking. Once a horse gets anxious & emotional, they quit being able to think clearly, to learn, and just get more reactive & anxious under pressure. So a big part of effective teaching is to avoid/minimise confusion & stress, and to recognise when it's happening & quit *before* it becomes a Thing.

So... if there are particular situations that you know she stresses about, set up lots of easy, short 'sessions' where she can 'win' at them without it being too much & then be stress free back in her 'comfort zone'. In that way, you can 'stretch' that comfort zone & gradually get her comfortable & confident doing those things.



> She's better when I'm working with her alone. She doesn't like the attentions of more than one person at a time, or strangers. It's not about the thing she's spooking at. Its about her mental state leading up to it.


One of my horses, due to horrible experience a long time ago, still has a 'phobia' about men, and due to my situation, while he's had quite a few good experiences & no Bad since, I haven't been able to give him enough 'exposure' to get him over that completely. So I just accept that I have to be a bit more careful when there are guys around he doesn't know.

But I also appreciate that my own anticipation & responses can make matters worse. And that horses sense our smallest 'bodylanguage', even if we're unaware we're transmitting. Eg. if I'm expecting/worried/overly focussed about something, even if I'm not very, or I'm trying hard to 'hide' it, I might still be just a little bit tight, a little bit abrupt, etc. Which can cause him to wonder & worry about what it is I'm worried about, setting the ball rolling, having him more on alert, more likely to 'spook'. So, not sure if that applies to you, re 'it's about her mental state leading up to it'.

And as for control when you find yourself in that situation, agree with Kalraii that *teaching*(not forcing) a 'one rein stop' really well is really helpful.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your input! I did try a magnesium calming supplement back when she had ulcers (before the ulcers were diagnosed) and it didn't help, but I guess if she had ulcers and a magnesium deficiency, she still would have been in pain from the ulcers and I may not have noticed any benefit from the supplement. So I'm adding smartcalm ultra to her next smartpak shipment and I'll see if it does anything. I'll try other possible solutions from there.

Practicing a one-rein stop won't really help. She has very good brakes and doesn't run through her bit at all. When she anxiety-panic-spooks she sits down and scoots sideways or surges forward very quickly. I'm lost in the sit. She just drops out from under me and I have no horse between my legs anymore. I'm on the floor before I even know what happened. I have no time to react.

Then once I fall off she's mentally gone. She's quite the people-pleasing horse and really tries to take care of her rider. She gets really upset when she thinks she's done something wrong. This is a good quality when trying to teach her new things or when giving her commands. She never fights me, and bends over backwards trying to understand me. But when she makes a mistake, she gets very upset and depending on how bad the mess up is in her mind, she sometimes comes entirely unglued. I've never gotten upset with her after a fall. I sometimes get back on and sometimes don't, depending on how I feel and how she seems to feel. I did not continue my lesson after the last incident, and she still held onto the fear for weeks after.

Probably part of the reason this only turns into an issue once every couple of years is I can usually see it coming and avert a crisis. Ursula does usually get tense, and visibly nervous before she explodes. Usually diverting her attention or working her through it with an exercise she's familiar with is enough to take the edge off, but every once in a while, I'm caught off guard. During our last incident, she started off the lesson pretty tense. I had rushed to the barn from work and brought her in early to get her ready for the lesson in time. She was out of sorts from the change in her routine and the rushing around. We took some extra time to warm up before diving into the lesson and she had seemed to settle, but I guess I was wrong and she lost it in the middle of an exercise early in the lesson. Some of the other stuff that's happened, has been stuff that would have spooked her anyways, and I get it. That lawnmower backfire was enough to scare me. I'm not expecting her to be dead to the world around her, but it's the fact that once she is scared, she can't let it go, and whatever scared her becomes a source of long-term anxiety. Each incident becomes a drawn out issue that lasts for weeks or even months. It sets us back significantly with our riding, and has made it impossible to make significant progress. I guess there is a lesson to be learned here. The next time she's anxious at the start of a ride, I won't get on. We'll just ground work it for the day. This should help us avoid at least some disasters.

I described an issue with dismounting in my first post and I may not have been clear. It was an issue only during a dismount. She's never been bad for mounting, and it's been years since she's had any issue with dismount. She stands very still for both. The recent issue with the mounting block did not involve mounting. We had been mounted for a good 20 minutes and she violently spooked at it while riding passed it.

I am aware that any horse is capable of spooking sometimes. It happens. They all do it. I've been unseated by a spook or two on other horses, but never has it become such a pattern with another horse, and never has another horse held on to their anxiety like Ursula. Another issue I have is how violent her spooks are. No one can ride through that. They're absolutely explosive in nature, happen very fast, and she's a big horse. It's dangerous, and her brain totally shuts down. I'd rather ride a horse that snorts and shies at random stuff every day than a horse that's usually very good but periodically loses her mind in dangerous fashion.

I will admit, my confidence is shaken every time this happens. I have taken lessons on other horses in the past when this happens, to help myself overcome it. It helps, but obviously has not resolved the issue for Ursula.

It takes a lot to unseat me. When I was a kid, I was often the one put on the problem horses, or new horses. I'd help with backing youngsters. I've seen my share of bolting, bucking, rearing, and general misbehavior, and yes, I've been dumped because of it at times, but it was always a one-time thing with an explanation in lack of mileage and exposure, a freak accident, or something else, and after a few minutes, the horse would be back to normal and we'd be on our way. This is different.

She sounds a lot like your horse, @phantomhorse13. We have made a lot of progress over the years. Some things she has learned not to get upset about at all, but most of what I've done is teach her to better handle the anxiety. She still gets nervous fairly often. The first year I had her was a mess. I couldn't take lessons at all because she was terrified of the person on the ground. She freaked the first time a took a lesson and my instructor touched her neck. She still gets really anxious when someone else is in the arena while we ride, but usually keeps enough of a lid on it for us to get through a 45 minute lesson, and the instructor I have now knows to approach her with caution and pay close attention to her body language. We live near an army post and the artillery drills don't bother her, but don't let someone on the ground touch her while she's being ridden. She can handle a deer popping up in her face on a trail ride, but the same pink mounting block she's seen 1000x is terrifying.

A friend of mine runs a riding program. Many of her students are adults, and she was looking for a larger horse to add to the program. I told her she could use Ursula for free if that meant Ursula would get some training and experience. She declined, admitting that Ursula scares her and she would not trust Ursula with her students. She will not ride Ursula herself. About half of the trainers I've worked with will not get on her themselves. The instructor I was with a few weeks ago is one of them. She is the one encouraging me to find a different horse. This upsets me because when she is good, she's amazing, but when she's scared, she is absolutely terrifying. She is simultaneously the best and the worst horse I have ever ridden.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I think from your first post I got the impression this was a non-anxious, calm horse that doesn't spook except for every couple of years, and then it's a big one. But this last post sounds more like a horse that is not actually calm, but is anxious and you and your instructor manage that anxiety.

If that is the ongoing state of the horse for a few years, then I would consider that not an unusual "blow up" incident, but rather the personality of the horse. Quite possibly, some horses have different vision or hearing that does not work as well with the usual horse brain. Combine this with a sensitive personality, and it can be challenging. 

As far as I can tell, there are three things you can do:
1) Accept the risk, and keep riding her while trying to work on not letting her anxiety get to the level of an explosion.
2) Keep her but take less risk, and don't have her do anything that normally causes anxiety. That would mean you would trade less risk to yourself for not doing all the things you want with her. This is actually a fairly common approach I've seen with people who have horses with anxious personalities - they stop riding them or only ride them in certain settings.
3) Find the horse a home with someone who doesn't mind an anxious horse. It does sound like your horse has many good qualities. But that doesn't mean she is right for you, and it sounds like you may have riding goals that are not working out well with her personality.

It's a personal thing for you. Something to think through carefully and decide what you need, what you can deal with, etc.

I wouldn't let words from others deter you, since _many_ trainers and instructors won't get on horses or say they scare them or are dangerous. I've dealt with that quite often. Assess the horse for yourself. If you feel she is too dangerous for you, don't assume she is too dangerous for another, because someone might be just right for her. The words like dangerous, big, explosive, fast, shuts down, those don't have to be things that keep her from getting a good home. People say those words a lot about horses. Some of those horses have quite useful lives.

For example, I've found some horses that completely lose their mind for a bit can sometimes not be as bad as horses that are thinking and continuing on and on with a behavior. It can be easier to get a horse to where they don't lose their mind very often than it can be to deter a horse that has not lost their mind but is having extreme behaviors anyway (long term). I say that after having one horse that would lose her mind, and two others that didn't but still were difficult. Also, a tiny explosive horse can be more difficult to stay on than a large one, because even a small horse can overpower you and they move so dang fast. Plus I can say from experience that there is not much difference in pain or injury coming off a 17 hand horse than a 14 hand horse. Especially if you get bucked up in the air first.

My point with all that is just to think about what is emotional or reaction to others' words, and try to separate that from your actual experiences and what you want from and for the horse. Since you've made so much progress, I'd say you probably know what your horse needs. You seem to know how to improve her ability to deal with things. The fact that you haven't reached where you think you need to be might simply be because that point is not actually attainable with this horse.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hmm, your update gives me a very different idea than your first post did. It seems that she is NOT OK for the most part & just freaks on the odd occasion or for a few known specifics, but is a generally nervous horse. More reason to look into nutrition for starters - and magnesium is also a nutrient that is used/needed by the body more in times of stress, so that may be a 'vicious circle' type factor.

It also sounds like even when she is 'good' it may be more that she is just 'keeping a lid on it', holding it together, rather than truly calm & confident & relaxed? Perhaps she's also a horse that is not so extroverted, tends to internalise, hold her breath even, not show the 'minor' signs as easily as some horses, so things just build up without you realising, until they're 'too much'. The mounting block or your dismounting for eg were just the 'final straw', not the reason for the spook. You know how even minor stresses throughout the day can build up inside, until by the end of the day you might end up losing it at someone for saying 'how was your day'??

I have/had a horse like that, that I didn't realise how he was really feeling - he was 'quiet', obedient, tried hard, but every once in a while - often when I thought he was quiet & obedient, so ready for something more - 'out of the blue, for no reason' he would just explode with violent, 'over the top' reactions & fear. Guess I was just more used to 'louder' extroverted horses, because it took a trainer(after many others, different tactics, desensitising, etc, etc) saying 'listen to his breathing' when he was 'quiet' & me to say 'I can't hear or feel it' for me to realise he was holding his breath! And there were other 'quiet' signs, that all was not well with him. I realised that although I'd never *intentionally* punished him for it, because I'd kept 'pushing' when it was too much for him, he was afraid to tell me how he felt, afraid to make mistakes & be 'corrected'. I still have him, he is old now, and he IS now pretty well unflappable, I'd trust him implicitly with my 6yo niece, or smaller kids to be led on these days. But it took that revelation that I had to 'listen' to him better, to not unwittingly 'push him over the edge', before I could really get through that.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

Ursula is nervous a lot more than she actually explodes but the things that stress her out are consistent. As I said in my first post she is generally truly calm. I don't have the budget to take lessons every week. I mostly ride alone or hack out on trails alone. In these scenarios she is rarely stressed. She is truly calm when I am the only one involved and when nothing out of the ordinary is happening around her. It is really only an issue when another person, someone she doesn't see every day, is around. Every single explosion has happened after or during a lesson or when someone else was with me and had attempted to interact with her. Even someone else taking the reins from me while I run to the bathroom can be enough to upset her.

Certain people are better than others. It depends on the person. Though the odd thing is she seems totally fine away from home. When I've had her at shows she's cool as a cucumber. The last show we went to was a benefit show for a therapeutic riding program and she was the center of attention among many people in electric wheel chairs and all she did was soak up the attention.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

To (as usual for me) reference Warwick Schiller, your horse sounds like she has a case of "too many rabbits." You say that it's unpredictable when she spooks, but it sounds like it happens under certain circumstances that actually are predictable: that is, her baseline anxiety is higher than usual, so added small stresses that normally wouldn't upset her (at least not in a big or even noticeable way) accumulate and put her over the top.






Another analogy he uses for this, and why desensitizing alone can't fix these problems of mounting anxiety:

Scenario one: you're cooking something in your kitchen, and you back up and bump your hip into the kitchen table. You go "Oops" and laugh and keep doing your thing.

Scenario two: it's midnight and there's a huge thunderstorm crashing outside. You're alone at home. The power goes out. As you fumble around in the dark and struggle to find a flashlight, a candle, some matches, anything... you hear a slow, steady knock coming from somewhere in the kitchen. You know you have to check it out, so you carefully, carefully, walk towards the kitchen and look out the window. Suddenly lightning illuminates a pale face pressed up against the glass. You stumble backwards. Your hip knocks into the kitchen table and the surprise of the impact makes you scream and jump three feet in the air.

The problem isn't that you're not desensitized to the kitchen table.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I guess I would recommend considering what your goals are with Ursula. It sounds like you really care about her a lot. Is it important to keep doing lessons with her, if that's a possible source of stress, or could you dial it back and just ride her and have fun? It sounds like you guys have really come quite a ways. I guess the question is, do you think this is as good as she can ever be (with the anxiety), or do you think that by working her some more you could get her even better?

I have a horse (Teddy) who sounds a lot like your Ursula, although not as severe. He doesn't spook, but he is potentiall exposive. He has low-level anxiety that has resulted in explosions before (this was before I got him; he's never had an explosion since I've had him), which was why he was given to me: he couldn't be used for lessons any more. A couple of things that have helped with him:
- In addition to being anxious, he's also very sensitive. So if I am upset or anxious, he becomes that much more anxious. Then I become anxious because of his anxiety, and it becomes a vicious circle. I don't know if Ursula is like that or not. I am a calm rider but I force myself to be super calm when riding him. I don't even drink coffee before riding him.
- I praise him All.The.Time. I'm actually hoping to be able to start cutting this out because it's starting to make me crazy. But it's super important for him to know that he's doing a good job. He tries so hard and is so afraid to mess up. So when I'm riding him I'm constantly saying things like "What a good boy! Who's such a good boy! What a good Teddy! I love you so much!" Every instructor I've ridden him with tells me that he loves to hear my voice, and he visibly relaxes when I start telling him how good he is. I'm a pretty new rider, but I'm starting to be able to see and feel him relax when I do this. I think his anxiety and his (over) eagerness to please are related, so by letting him know that I am pleased with him, I seem to reduce his anxiety. 

If you think Ursula's spooking may be related to anxiety, maybe you could try one of the things above? Like I said, I'm a pretty new rider, and you sound pretty experienced. This is part of the reason I didn't respond earlier -- I'm not sure whether this isn't stuff you have already tried.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

> When she anxiety-panic-spooks she sits down and scoots sideways or surges forward very quickly. I'm lost in the sit. She just drops out from under me and I have no horse between my legs anymore. I'm on the floor before I even know what happened. I have no time to react....
> 
> ...Another issue I have is how violent her spooks are. No one can ride through that. They're absolutely explosive in nature, happen very fast, and she's a big horse. It's dangerous, and her brain totally shuts down....
> 
> ...I mostly ride alone or hack out on trails alone. In these scenarios she is rarely stressed. She is truly calm when I am the only one involved and when nothing out of the ordinary is happening around her. It is really only an issue when another person, someone she doesn't see every day, is around. Every single explosion has happened after or during a lesson...


What I write may sound harsh. It isn't meant to be. Mia was different in many ways. She was generally happy in the arena and found trails challenging, although I now realize much of her challenge was primarily with human things - neighborhoods, or humans in the desert. Her startle reaction was a violent spin, sometimes a 180 but sometimes 2-3 full circles. For a few years she would bolt. But her problems were near constant. We might have a half-dozen bland rides, then one where she would do a couple of violent spins because...because...well, I'm not sure SHE knew why!

I traded her for Bandit, who was more reactive when I got him but who has calmed down and become a vastly safer horse to ride. Mia went to the Navajo reservation and has become a horse who is often ridden bareback. I think the difference is comes down to two things: She can see everywhere for miles and gets taken out for frequent runs. 3-4 miles of running if she feels like it. But I think MOST of the difference is her environment. She thrives in a place where she can see 360 degrees for 5-10 miles. That is the background that leads to this advice, but you are welcome to think I'm nuts and ignore me. 

1 - Either keep her as a trail horse or sell her to someone who is happy doing trails. Our mustang Cowboy is a bitter ex-lesson horse. 5 years later, he still melts down in an arena. On the trail, he is the most reliable horse I own. We like to put total beginners on him because he's as good a trail horse as I've met. Just don't ask him to ride around in an arena. He was free. No one who knew him from lessons would take him. But he is a darn good trail pony and that matches our need.

2 - Riding out a violent move is very different from "good equitation" on an obedient, steady-state horse. Good equitation is good for an obedient, unreactive horse. IMHO, it sets you up for a fall on a horse who reacts hard and without warning. This photo sequence is of a fairly typical spook move:








The rider's position starts out "good". When the horse reacts, fast and hard, the horse shifts weight way back, drops a shoulder and starts a violent turn away. No one can reacts as fast as a horse, so the rider's good balance is now forward and to one side of his horse. In this case, the rider was able to recover (barely). But the "right" balance becomes the "wrong" balance during the first 1/4 second of a horse's typical spook. Position 3, maybe 1/2 second tops from position 1, is a very tough spot to be in.

With Mia, I had to learn to ride the spook. Always. I couldn't react in time. No one could. So I had to adjust my position and technique so that, WHEN she spooked, my position would already be one that would help me during that first 1/4 second. Since the horse shifts sudden back, I needed to be "back" before my horse started the spook. If I was, then her shifting back merely put her under me.

For a turn like that, draped legs hanging like wet towels don't work. Weight needs to be in the stirrups because that gives you very firm legs (not braced, but firm) and legs that are subconsciously being actively held together - just as they are when you stand or walk. Your muscles cannot tense fast enough during the first 1/4 second, so they need some tension all the time. Anticipate the spook and ride for it.

The feet should be forward of the hips. If a horse does what I called "The OMG Crouch" when Mia did it (often 20 times a ride at the start, maybe a couple times a month after 7 years), their back drops, they suddenly decelerate and your weight is thrust forward. If your stirrups are long, in front and you are always riding with some weight in them, an OMG Crouch will slam you into your stirrups. If you are riding "properly" before the OMG Crouch, your torso WILL go forward. How forward depends on how violent the crouch is. And no one can react during that first 1/4 second. That 1/4 second determines the outcome.








Good riding is supposed to be the first two. The third sets one up for success when the spook strikes. It is "bad riding" except for when it is needed.

3 - If you assume the spook during a lesson, your instructor will probably get upset. An alternative - one that probably kept me alive when I rode Mia the first few years - is to use an Australian saddle.








No horse drops out from under your legs, assuming you have a 30 inch inseam and your legs go around the horse. They might drop a lot, but with an Australian saddle, your thighs WILL hit the poleys and you will have a hard time getting too forward. Even in a spook. If the horse spins, the inside poley WILL slam into your leg and spin your HIPS around, which does wonders for keeping you on the horse. Mia sometimes moved so hard that I had 4" bruises on one thigh, but the saddle kept me on. I learned I could ride normal if I wanted and the saddle would take care of Mia's explosions. Firm, engaged legs and an Australian style saddle do wonders for staying on during an unexpected explosion. 

In a bolt, you can slide your thighs against the poleys and are now in a very strong position both to stay on and to figure out how to handle the bolt. With Mia, the best was was to call her name softly. When an ear flicked back, she was no longer bolting. Just running. It isn't hard to stop a RUNNING horse. I don't think anyone stops a BOLTING horse.

I am certain the saddle in the picture is all that kept me alive until Mia got better.

All just IMHO, based on Mia's explosions. And if it doesn't help, it won't hurt my feelings if you ignore everything I wrote. I can only share based on my own experience and yours might be very different. FWIW, this video gave me food for thought back when Mia and I were have so many problems. Cutters ride powerful horses who are "spooking" continuously:


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

Don't worry. No one has been harsh. You all have been amazingly helpful. You've definitely helped me see the situation more clearly in my own head. I've been thinking about this all day and have come up with a plan.

I'm having surgery in October so will not be able to work with her at all for a while after that, mounted or on the ground. I'm going to put any further lessons on hold until after recovery. I'll continue to do groundwork and ride her lightly when she's in a good mood until October, at which point she will just have the winter off. Once both me and the weather are in favorable condition I will take lessons at a different barn, on another horse and just do my homework between lessons at home on Ursula. That should take some of the pressure off of her. 

As I said in previous post, there are things she's gotten a lot better about as far as being scared and anxious. I may take this time to work on some desensitizing to things that make her anxious, but only one at a time as not to overwhelm her. I'll work on throwing off her routine best I can and continue what I'm doing in the round pen so the next time she's worked up and an object moves from one eye to the other in her field of vision it won't send her over the edge.

I am still going to start her on magnesium and see if that makes a difference.

It sucks that I really don't know a whole lot about the first 5 years of her life. I know she was not treated kindly. I wonder if she was tag teamed by two people at some point and still remembers that. Ursula really is the elephant that never forgets.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

kiltsrhott said:


> As I said in previous post, there are things she's gotten a lot better about as far as being scared and anxious. I may take this time to work on some desensitizing to things that make her anxious,


I love SteadyOn's analogy about the kitchen bench! It's not about the bench... Again, rather than just working on 'desensitising to things', I'd consider that her 'gotten a lot better' may be that she's better at not showing it outwardly, but she's still generally on edge, so any little thing can 'tip her over'. So I think I'd work on getting her reliably relaxed and confident(not just 'quiet') with 'the basics' before working on 'things' that may be triggers.

Another analogy... well, 2 in 1... is to think of stress as straw on a camel's back - or a bucket under a leaky roof. Each straw, or drip in the bucket may be almost negligible of itself. But if it just keeps on coming, if the camel isn't unloaded, if the bucket isn't emptied frequently enough, it will still eventually break the camel, overflow the bucket.

I'd also use positive reinforcement/rewards to encourage her to be actively willing, wanting to do stuff. And I've found it's also amazing how positive reinforcement can distract an animal from *low grade*(if the experience is too much, rewards can be UNhelpful IMO) fear, and replace that emotion with 'good vibes' about the situation. Keeping it 'low grade' might be about length of time she is exposed to the situation before removing her from all stress(how long between emptying buckets), or it may be the distance you are from the 'scary', the speed or such, what else is going on at the time...



> It sucks that I really don't know a whole lot about the first 5 years of her life. I know she was not treated kindly. I wonder if she was tag teamed by two people at some point and still remembers that. Ursula really is the elephant that never forgets.


I do think it could be helpful, to a degree, to know what happened to the horse in the past. But you're never going to know, and to a large degree it _doesn't_ matter what the specifics were, as to how you overcome that. You still have the horse you have today to deal with.

I don't know if we CAN ever know fully how a horse thinks, remembers, sees the world. But from my studies in animal psych and behavioural psych, then reading Temple Grandin's work, I really think her way of seeing it is appropriate & helpful. That they 'think' and remember in pictures. That is why 'the kitchen bench' may *become* 'a thing' when it wasn't about that in the first place. They can't think rationally, so what they remember is that 'picture' of that situation, coupled with their emotion at the time. Which yeah, they don't forget. But if presented in a way that's not too stressful, then the emotion attached to the 'picture' is replaced with 'good vibes', then with repetition & avoidance of further 'bad' associations, you can 'overwrite' that association. In that way, you can 'stretch' her comfort zone without risk of it causing further stress to build.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

loosie said:


> Another analogy... well, 2 in 1... is to think of stress as straw on a camel's back - or a bucket under a leaky roof.


Or "A Cup of Worry":


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

bsms said:


> Good riding is supposed to be the first two. The third sets one up for success when the spook strikes. It is "bad riding" except for when it is needed.


Depends on the horse's favorite spook. When Hamlet sees something from the corner of his eyes, he goes straight forward, like a race horse out of the gate, coupled with a lateral evasive maneuver. It's rare that I get a spin, and in all cases I got a spin, I saw it coming and could shut it down: "Wait, what's that? (He stops.) Oh, nononononono - don't like! (Attempts to spin and bolt, I keep him facing the scary thing and think about it for a while, then inch forward.)" 

The other day, we passed a hedge, and behind that hedge was - something. I didn't have time to see it before we were in the next ZIP code. With my c.o.g. back and feet forward, I'd have been over the butt.

Actually, my favorite spook of his is during a canter. Because he goes forward, it's like an afterburner kicking in. Since I'm usually in two-point (as we don't do collected canters across a field), I am _much_ more forward than your favorite defensive position, but it's the right one for that type of event. 

I absolutely agree with "locked and loaded" regarding legs on the saddle, because even at speed, Hamlet finds it easy to make a berth around something he doesn't like (rock or tree stump in the bushes, different-color grass...)


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

It really does depend on your horse's favorite spook. Many horses will do the occasional look and shy, or more dramatically, look and spin. I have actually never fallen off of one of these.

I started riding western and am now doing dressage. I never developed a hunter forward seat. I sit back and deep in my seat, which keeps me well anchored for spinning maneuvers.

This may, however, be what gets me with Ursula's spooks. Her panic spooks are almost always a drop and tuck the hindquarters and rocket forward into a bolt. Sitting back gets me left behind in this scenario and I end up on my back on the ground in a split second. I probably need to ride with a more forward seat in these cases but unfortunately I'm being further encouraged to sit up and back and keep my horse in front of the leg for dressage.

In response to what someone said about Urs not really getting better, but just learning to hide her fear of things, and I disagree. Yes, there are certain things, such has being handled by two people at once, that she has learned to manage her fear better but is still very afraid, but there are other things she has legit lost a fear of. She used to be very ear shy, and would get very tense about hands near the top of her head. Now she begs for scratches in this area. She used to hate being haltered or putting her fly mask on, likely for the same reason, but now it's entirely a non-issue. I can tell when she's anxious and holding back vs when she's calm.

Ursula is expressive, and keeps no secrets. Her eyes are visibly worried, her muscles through her neck and back tight, and her heart rate elevated when she's anxious. Her ears are usually turning every which way. When calm, her ears are relaxed, eyes calm and droopy, muscles smooth and relaxed. Her lower lip is usually hanging quite low when she's relaxed too. Her eyes and muscles in her neck are the biggest giveaway.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

In my opinion (and we used to have our horses bolt from a walk on purpose so I know what it's like to come over the back of the saddle), it's not that you need a forward seat to stay with a bolt, but you can't be behind the horse's movement, or completely on your seat without putting weight down into your legs. In front of the leg does not mean you should be behind the horse's center of gravity or not with the horse's movement. I think that is a mistake, especially when it comes to safety.

I see a lot of excellent dressage riders that stay with the horse and would definitely be with the horse with they bolted. 

















Carl Hester said that riders who lean back and sit behind the movement will never have a horse with self carriage.


> “No, because they are driving the horse down in front. If they sit too strong, behind the vertical, then they are pushing the horse down, through and into the hand. I was told by ‘Rocky’* when you go forward you bring your body forward and when you want to come back, you bring your body back. And it is amazing how most of us do the opposite to that. He always said to me, when you piaffe, you should be sitting over your knee, not sitting on your backside.”


Hopefully you won't feel you need to be behind the movement in order to ride well, especially if it is compromising your safety!
Edit: Forgot say, it sounds like you know your horse really well, and how to read her.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Valid points on spooks. I've never ridden a horse whose favorite spook mode was a big leap forward. My horses are all smaller and slender. Mia was the biggest and she only weighed 900 lbs. They can build good speed and then keep it, but they are not explosive going forward. The rare times they do leap forward won't result in anyone sliding over the cantle of a western saddle.

For a defensive seat, I don't mean leaning back. I was frustrated for a long time when folks would suggest riding "on my pockets". Turned out a back injury just after I started riding kept me stiff and wouldn't allow me to do it right until it finally healed 10 years later. I thought of it as leaning back to get on my pockets, but it really is just rotating the pelvis back a little, loosening my always stiff back and getting the CoG of my torso a little more behind my thighs. I think the people who tried to demonstrate it to me exaggerated to make their point and I took the exaggeration to be reality. Done right, it doesn't put weight on the horse's loin or put one noticeably 'behind the horse'. Same with putting the stirrups forward of the belt buckle. It actually pulls your weight forward, not back.

I also used to hear "when your horse is about to spook" and was told they ALWAYS give some warning. They do sometimes, but some really are more like a bolt of lightning! I'd swear at least half of Mia's spooks were caused by Zeus deciding to entertain the crowd of Greek gods on Mount Olympus by tossing a lightning bolt at her rump! I still believe that if you can survive the first 1/4-1/2 second of the bolt in decent balance, the rest is easy.

I also am convinced that some horses are just that way. Zeus just finds some horses more entertaining than others, so to speak. You can't cure them entirely and can't always ride out a reaction. Then you are left with risk management - are there places or activities that make it more likely? Can a change in equipment - saddle, helmet, etc - help? After 4 years with Bandit, there are still times I can feel his emotions rising...and I find myself putting my free hand on the horn to help keep my shoulders above his back. Like Mia, he can jump sideways in a way fitting Olympic competition. I also took years to realize the majority of spooks came during the 5 minute walk thru my neighborhood to the desert. So I now lead my horse to the start of the desert. My neighbors may look down on me but it beats clinging to my horse as he races through their yards...or bucking in their driveway...

Good luck to all! I've often berated myself for not being able to get my horse to stroll relaxed from A to B, trusting my "leadership". I now just admire those who ride the horses Zeus is so fond of....:rofl:


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

kiltsrhott said:


> This may, however, be what gets me with Ursula's spooks. Her panic spooks are almost always a drop and tuck the hindquarters and rocket forward into a bolt. Sitting back gets me left behind in this scenario and I end up on my back on the ground in a split second. I probably need to ride with a more forward seat in these cases but unfortunately I'm being further encouraged to sit up and back and keep my horse in front of the leg for dressage.



You aren't getting left behind because you are sitting deep. You're getting left behind because, well, you're getting left behind!!


Coming from the barrel racing world, some riders get "left behind" when the horse powers out and leaves the turn to go to the next barrel. You don't want to be ahead of the horse, but you can't get left behind or you are at risk of falling out the back door.  And you can't get to far forward coming into the turn because if your horse "sets up" to make a move, you'll be bounced out in front over their head. 



It's just a matter of staying centered. Doesn't really matter if you are sitting deep, or somewhat out of the saddle, because if you stay centered no matter what, then you stay centered. 



Now I'm not a dressage person so I might not be saying things right to relate to that (or maybe just saying things differently) but you should always be centered no matter what you do. That allows the horse's body to move uninhibited under you.


So here's a still from a recent barrel race last week we made. (Took 3rd place out of 67 people, btw!) I recall feeling this huge PUSH of power as he left the first barrel. While I am still sitting in my saddle, my body is still "forward" and moving with him. I'm not getting left behind. Does that make sense?? So try to think of it in those terms when you horse is bolting forward. You can be sitting in the saddle but you've got to stay with them.


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

I agree with the two posters who talked about "too many rabbits" and "a horses cup of worry". If you join Warwick's video subscription site he has a clear training path of videos in the called something like "focus for relaxation" or something along those lines that is exactly what your horse probably needs. I have been working an extremely reactive Appendix I have up here through that program and he is a thousand times better now than he was before and he can even recover mid-spook now, stop and calm himself down. I don't normally recommend big name trainers but I think in this case it would be well worth your money to do a trial subscription for a month and work your horse daily for 30 days through that program and see if this issue doesn't go away. Some horses will always be "hot" but they don't need to be uncontrollable and have their mind leave you and be hard to get to come back down.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

kiltsrhott said:


> As I said in previous post, there are things she's gotten a lot better about as far as being scared and anxious. I may take this time to work on some desensitizing to things that make her anxious, but only one at a time as not to overwhelm her. I'll work on throwing off her routine best I can and continue what I'm doing in the round pen so the next time she's worked up and an object moves from one eye to the other in her field of vision it won't send her over the edge.
> 
> I am still going to start her on magnesium and see if that makes a difference.
> 
> It sucks that I really don't know a whole lot about the first 5 years of her life. I know she was not treated kindly. I wonder if she was tag teamed by two people at some point and still remembers that. Ursula really is the elephant that never forgets.



I think you have a good game plan, but I just want to say it doesn't really matter what happened in the first 5 years of her life. What matters is the horse you have in front of you right now. Obviously, she does not know how to handle her anxiety or deal with pressure. Of course, it sounds like you've made leaps and bounds with her, but some horses never fully "get rid of the problem" 100%. 



It is a fine line of teaching them how to handle pressure and how not to just blow up .... but not to actually make them freak out. You HAVE to put pressure on them in training so they know how to handle it, but too little pressure and they won't make progress and too much pressure, well, you know! 



With a horse like this, I think it is so important to teach them to focus on you at all times. (She shouldn't even worry about the object out on the field, because she shouldn't even know it's there b/c she should be paying attention to you.) But .... if they do get into a spooked situation (like the lawn mower instance) it teaches them that when something like that happens, that they can always rely on YOU to guide them on what to do and you can get their attention back on you quicker and diffuse the situatoin quicker, and get them to calm down.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A horse with some intelligence will notice he smells and hears things that we humans do not. So if the tension is based on smell, he'd be stupid to trust us.

I encountered that with Bandit this morning. I planned on riding him in our little arena just to make sure he was good with a new bit. He's calm to the point of bored in the arena. But not today. Something to the north or northwest. Smell. He was on full alert, deep breaths, flared nostrils. We did a lot of prancing and dancing. We ended up working the arena east to west, back and forth, sometimes going into the NW corner and sometimes not. After 45 minutes, the steel beam in his back softened. His neck relaxed. We were going on a slack rein. He was still concerned, but not on the edge of flight or flight. 

After the ride, I led him out into the land to the northwest of our arena. He seemed to be trying to find "it" too. Breathing deep, listening, more like a hound dog than a horse. We found a rattlesnake but that wasn't "it". He finally seemed to accept "it" wasn't there.

It has been several years since he has been so worried. It was obviously a smell, and he knows he can smell things I cannot. Asking him to focus on me would be like telling him, "_I don't have a clue what you are smelling, but in spite of my total ignorance, I want you to trust me._" Maybe some riders could pull it off. His previous owner would whip him hard enough to push him past things. Not me. Some might be able to project such strong self confidence that Bandit would trust them. Not me either. But he went repeatedly into an area that concerned him greatly with just pressure from my calves and some contact with the bit. "Trust but verify" was his motto!

We didn't quit. Neither did I force him. We worked the edges. I swapped out my cotton hat for my helmet and very actively rode him. He needed to learn that even if I cannot smell something, I can still tell if there is an IMMEDIATE threat. To his credit, he never broke and tried to run away. To my credit, I encouraged rather than demanded. But to some degree, Bandit will never change. He will never be a 'point and go' horse. My farrier said if I wanted that, I needed to sell Bandit & buy a different horse. I don't want different. I want Bandit. I'll take the bad with the good.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

beau159 said:


> With a horse like this, I think it is so important to teach them to focus on you at all times. (She shouldn't even worry about the object out on the field, because she shouldn't even know it's there b/c she should be paying attention to you.) But .... if they do get into a spooked situation (like the lawn mower instance) it teaches them that when something like that happens, that they can always rely on YOU to guide them on what to do and you can get their attention back on you quicker and diffuse the situatoin quicker, and get them to calm down.


I don't think that's how it works. Worrying is not a decision that you make, it is something that happens to you. If you worry about your mom having a serious medical procedure done, you will not focus on a lesson in the classroom. Safety and survival comes first for the horse, not learning tricks. If their sensory apparatus detects "danger," it doesn't matter what the horse "should" do. "Not being eaten" beats mastering the "shoulder in." 

What you can expect from a horse is to _follow your lead to safety_ when it is worried, but not to ignore the worrisome stimulus altogether, like a Shaolin monk in deep meditation.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

By sitting back I didn't mean behind the vertical. I just meant, not leaning forward like hunters often do, keeping your pelvis open, allowing your horse to move freely and keep their weight off the forehand. I'm pretty sure if I were leaning back behind the vertical my riding instructor would come smack me off my horse. Ursula wouldn't even have to bolt. 😂

I don't have a problem moving with my horse if we're both on the same page about where we're going and what we're doing. It's been a lot of years but I did start out Western and have done barrels, poles, keyhole and figure eight. I never got left behind then, but of course I was prepared for it then, and the dramatic sit was not a factor. The worst part of Ursula's spooks is that drop. She goes from 17 hands to 15 hands in a split second and then bolts.

And yeah, I'll look into Warwick.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

kiltsrhott said:


> In response to what someone said about Urs not really getting better, but just learning to hide her fear of things, and I disagree. Yes, there are certain things, such has being handled by two people at once, that she has learned to manage her fear better but is still very afraid, but there are other things she has legit lost a fear of. She used to be very ear shy, and would get very tense about hands near the top of her head. Now she begs for scratches in this area. She used to hate being haltered or putting her fly mask on, likely for the same reason, but now it's entirely a non-issue. I can tell when she's anxious and holding back vs when she's calm.


That were me. Great that you recognise all her 'signs' & appreciate the difference. As it sounded like she is generally anxious though, I'd just work in small steps, towards getting her truly & reliably calm then, with all the 'basics' before getting her calm at things *gradually* more 'difficult'. And just as that wonderful ear rub won the day over being 'ear shy', don't forget to reward her(not just negatively reinforce/remove pressure) for stuff every chance you get.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I have ridden for over 50 years. I have ridden calm horses, crazy horse, all kinds of horses. One reminds me of your Ursula.

She was a "free lease" from my sister. She said that she was too spooky and that she didn't have time to work with her. This horse had a lot of good things going for her. She was big, she was bold. She would go absolutely anywhere. 

But every single day, she would spook at least once. When she spooked, she would jump as much as 6 feet to the side. Sometimes she would spin and bolt off in the opposite direction from where we were going. I rode her daily for two years on trails for about 2 hours each day. She never got better.

My sister finally asked me if I wanted to buy the horse because she was ready to ride. I decided not to keep her. 

My sister traded her to a very active trail rider. The woman loved her and would not take any amount of money for her. She stopped spooking as much. Things were better. 

Then, they were riding in the mountains. According to one of the owner's friends, the mare had a severe spook on a narrow mountain trail and that was the end of them both.

I feel really bad that we sold the horse. I feel glad that I didn't ride her in the mountains. Think about your goals. What do you want? Is this the right horse?


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

My Paso is similar to your mare. I'm certain he was ear twitched. I also suspect he was tied to a post and beaten repeatedly. It makes me really angry because I'm certain he would have been a great horse, if someone had not abused him so badly. 

As for riding he is not spooky, but he doesn't trust his rider. There's an incredible amount of tension in his body at all times and he dances everywhere he goes. Accepting a rider, does not mean you have the horse's trust. He accepts the rider, he does what I ask. He doesn't really spook at things, but he is on guard. He seems like he is looking around for the person who abused him to pop up from behind something, especially when I ride in the yard. Again, not really spooking, but looking.

He remains really flinchy. He's improved in that regard - sometimes i can pet him and scratch him without having him flinch, but it is a part of him. 

I don't think you can ever truly extinguish abusive memories. Any stimulus associated with the original abuse can cause the horse to revert to a fear behavior response.

" Why is spontaneous recovery so significant? This phenomenon demonstrates that extinction is not the same thing as unlearning. While the response might disappear, that does not mean that it has been forgotten or eliminated. "

My horse does lose his mind over things. I stopped at a trail head in a new environment, dismounted, and pulled out a map. He saw that map and totally freaked- went bolting off at a full gallop. He was so terrified, he couldn't find his way back to his buddy horse at camp, and went about 3-4 miles before stopping at a road where someone caught him. In other words, he totally lost his mind and stopped thinking. I had a very long hike back to camp and arrived just as the person who caught him was walking him up.

Pulled out the map at camp and he was shaking in his boots. Took him home and pulled out the map- no fear response at all. Makes it difficult to desensitize a horse to something when they are fine at home, but terrified in a different environment. 

He doesn't handle stress well. Long trailer ride, being in a new environment, seeing other trailers and people walking around, then going for a trail ride was enough to completely overwhelm him. Even though we had been there before once, even though he is trailered somewhere weekly, did not mean he was mentally okay. A horse can only handle so much mental stress at one time. The map was the last straw, to an already overwhelmed horse.

Of course, he gets overwhelmed so easily, it is hard to tell if he is at his limit. He can stress himself out completely without me even stepping foot in the pasture. OMG! There's a horsefly! Or there's traffic on the street! Or the neighbors children are playing! It's the end of the world!!

Your horse is anxious to begin with, then suddenly sees something terrifying and spooks. Another consideration is that your horse could have been beaten for throwing the rider in the past. So once you come off, she is afraid, even if she doesn't know why she is afraid.

I think, in this situation, i would practice emergency dismounts at unexpected times, and give her treats. You want her to look forward to seeing you get off. 

I would really focus on getting her to relax under saddle. Just relax and put that head down. Something I'm trying with the Paso. 

I would try treating for ulcers. Nexium isn't that expensive and horses are so ulcer prone, especially horses that tend to stress themselves out. It wouldn't hurt.


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

I've been riding Arabians horse in the woods for more than 30 years. I have learned to help them with their anxieties. Right now, I'm working with one that has 12 years of negative inputs. I don't know how he's going to work out. Having said all that, I'm not pretending to know the last word about your particular situation. I doubt anyone does. Because for one, mares are mares. One thing that works for me is recognizing when the horse is doing the best it can. And then I am the one who has to make adjustments. It sounds like you are at that place with Ursula. It sounds like you want to force her to be what she isn't. Instead I would help her. I'll give you a couple of examples. You write she does best when it is just the two of you working alone. So why have you had 4 different trainers work with her? Why are you taking lessons if you have been riding all your life? It sounds like you pretty much know what kind of situations set her up to be spooked. So why aren't you taking her out of those situations? I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think you're asking something from her that she can't give. And it sounds like she's already a solid trail horse.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

charrorider said:


> I've been riding Arabians horse in the woods for more than 30 years. I have learned to help them with their anxieties. Right now, I'm working with one that has 12 years of negative inputs. I don't know how he's going to work out. Having said all that, I'm not pretending to know the last word about your particular situation. I doubt anyone does. Because for one, mares are mares. One thing that works for me is recognizing when the horse is doing the best it can. And then I am the one who has to make adjustments. It sounds like you are at that place with Ursula. It sounds like you want to force her to be what she isn't. Instead I would help her. I'll give you a couple of examples. You write she does best when it is just the two of you working alone. So why have you had 4 different trainers work with her? Why are you taking lessons if you have been riding all your life? It sounds like you pretty much know what kind of situations set her up to be spooked. So why aren't you taking her out of those situations? I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think you're asking something from her that she can't give. And it sounds like she's already a solid trail horse.



I'm taking lessons and training because I want to learn dressage and I want to eventually compete. I wanted to start competing years ago, but haven't been able to get there due to Ursula's anxieties. (My financial situation hasn't helped either.) We've been to a few open shows just doing pleasure and she seemed to enjoy that but because I'm new to dressage and Ursula hates lessons I've had a hard time progressing enough on the dressage end of things to go in that direction. This is exactly why my instructor suggested I get a different horse, one that is more suited to my riding goals.

I've been kicking around the idea for the last few days and it's just so hard. My heart says not to give up on Ursula, just keep trying and maybe someday we'll get there. Because I love her, and we do get along very well most of the time.

There is still that nagging part of me that says maybe now is a good time to part ways with her, take lessons on someone else's horses for a while after my surgery and then get another horse later, when I'm back in the swing and have trained myself to where I want to be.

I know the latter is the logical choice, but it's not an easy one to make, and I'm not sure I'm capable of making it.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

mmshiro said:


> I don't think that's how it works. Worrying is not a decision that you make, it is something that happens to you. If you worry about your mom having a serious medical procedure done, you will not focus on a lesson in the classroom.



Except that horses don't "worry" like humans worry. 



And except that you CAN control what your mind does and if you (for example) need to take a test that day in class, you can control your mind to "temporarily" forget about your mother to focus on your test, and then go back to worrying about it after the test is done.





mmshiro said:


> Safety and survival comes first for the horse, not learning tricks. If their sensory apparatus detects "danger," it doesn't matter what the horse "should" do. "Not being eaten" beats mastering the "shoulder in."
> 
> What you can expect from a horse is to _follow your lead to safety_ when it is worried, but not to ignore the worrisome stimulus altogether, like a Shaolin monk in deep meditation.



Again, if your horse has it's focus on YOU, it is impossible for it to also focus on the "other" stimuli at the same time. Yes, "shoulder in" can absolutely trump "whats-that-thing-going-on-over-there-across-the-yard." Don't mean the horse won't momentarily shift it's focus there, but that also means you can immediately re-direct their attention right back on you again before they have a chance to do anything about what's going on across the yard. You need to make yourself more important than whatever else is going on; the horse will pay attention to what is the most important.



So I guess we will agree to disagree.


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## charrorider (Sep 23, 2012)

kiltsrhottt. Just out of curiosity, because I really have no idea. You have mentioned the matter of limited funds. How much money does it take to compete in dressage? And by that I mean, all costs above and beyond that of a horse one would use for trail riding. How much does a dressage horse cost where you live? What about travelling, the clothing attire, and the Stubben saddle (or whatever saddle is used)? Are you going to have the funds for that? But I guess the bottom line is that if your mare cannot take you where you want to go and you don't want to change your destination, then a decision has to be made. You might find another horse and never look back. Or you might be one of those people who years later is wondering what ever happened to that mare, posting on social media, "Has anyone seen this mare?" Decisions in life would be easy if we could all look into a crystal ball. JMO.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

beau159 said:


> And except that you CAN control what your mind does and if you (for example) need to take a test that day in class, you can control your mind to "temporarily" forget about your mother to focus on your test, and then go back to worrying about it after the test is done.
> 
> ...
> 
> So I guess we will agree to disagree.


I had a girl in one of my _Honors_ courses last year whose mother in the UK underwent some serious medical treatment for a time... I have seen what "being worried" does to someone's cognitive abilities.

Yes, I can expect of her a certain degree of mental presence; but no, I could not expect of her being fully engaged, absorb new material, and then do well on assessments while this was going on in her life. And that's talking about an ambitious student with clear academic goals, not an animal for which the only time is "Now".

Yes, we will have to disagree on this one.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> Except that you CAN control what your mind does and if you (for example) need to take a test that day in class, you can control your mind to "temporarily" forget about your mother to focus on your test, and then go back to worrying about it after the test is done.


I thought you were agreeing with/arguing FOR what mm said with that bit. Humans being 'rational thinkers' & horses not. Humans being present in a class/test because THEY want to be, it's important to them. And yes, that sort of 'worry' not being the same as survival instincts in a horse. And yet you still can't even expect 100% from a human in that situation either. 


> Again, if your horse has it's focus on YOU, it is impossible for it to also focus on the "other" stimuli at the same time. Yes, "shoulder in" can absolutely trump "whats-that-thing-going-on-over-there-across-the-yard."


Yes, agree distraction can indeed work a treat(& didn't think mm was saying otherwise). But that's a very big 'if'. If the 'worry' is not overbearing. If the horse trusts and has confidence in the human to look out for it. If the shoulder in or whatever is not at all stressful of itself, etc. Otherwise attempting to just force the horse to ignore a worry & pay attention only to what you want may just make it worse. And associate the emotions at the time with what you're asking.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

charrorider said:


> kiltsrhottt. Just out of curiosity, because I really have no idea. You have mentioned the matter of limited funds. How much money does it take to compete in dressage? And by that I mean, all costs above and beyond that of a horse one would use for trail riding. How much does a dressage horse cost where you live? What about travelling, the clothing attire, and the Stubben saddle (or whatever saddle is used)? Are you going to have the funds for that? But I guess the bottom line is that if your mare cannot take you where you want to go and you don't want to change your destination, then a decision has to be made. You might find another horse and never look back. Or you might be one of those people who years later is wondering what ever happened to that mare, posting on social media, "Has anyone seen this mare?" Decisions in life would be easy if we could all look into a crystal ball. JMO.


The cost of a dressage horse is relative to what kind of dressage horse you're looking for. The instructor I'm working with now has a grade draft cross she's working at 4th level. A dressage horse doesn't have to have world reknown blood lines or be expensive to purchase. They just have to be sound and have the mind for it.

Some people will drop tens of thousands of dollars for a well bred Warmblood but that's not necessary, at least not for me. I'm not looking to go Grand Prix, just enjoy some local dressage shows, perhaps through second level. Any sound horse can do that.

I just love the learning. I love getting off the farm to show with friends. In addition to dressage, I'd love to do low level eventing, paper chases and some jumping.

I can afford local shows. I've done it in the past with this horse and others. I already have the tack, clothing and access to a truck and trailer. The money issues lie in repeat expenses. I can't afford $500/month in board right now, hence why my horse is on self care on family property and not in a training barn with an indoor. I can't afford $45/week in lessons right now but I can swing that every other week or so, or skip some of those lessons and take a $100 clinic instead. I can't afford to compete every weekend, but I can afford a trip to a local show ground and entry fees for a few classes once a month or so. And this is all I really want.

As much as I love trail riding, riding gets boring for me if I don't have goals to work towards. If I give up on learning new riding techniques to retire Ursula to a life on the trails, I'll lose interest and I know it. I know with trail riding you can have goals too, however there aren't many challenging trails in the local area. I'd have to travel farther, and miss more work than showing. That would be even worse for the budget.

The reason I hesitate to sell Ursula is I know I'd think of her often and miss her. I would be that person looking for her long after she's gone.

The crappy thing is she's great at shows. I'm sure I could haul her to a show tomorrow and she'd be fine. She just hates lessons. Too much pressure. Too many people focused only on her. That's why I'm hoping I can work on me somewhere else and bring what I learn home to her, so Urs doesn't have to deal with lessons herself.

As I said before, she has a magnesium supplement coming with her next smartpak shipment, so we'll give that a shot.

I've attached a picture of her before her last lunge session. I've been using the t-touch body wraps and she seems to like that method. She comes back to earth faster with the wrap on.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

kiltsrhott said:


> The crappy thing is she's great at shows. I'm sure I could haul her to a show tomorrow and she'd be fine. She just hates lessons. Too much pressure. Too many people focused only on her. That's why I'm hoping I can work on me somewhere else and bring what I learn home to her, so Urs doesn't have to deal with lessons herself.


Seems like you don't need a new horse, you need a compatible and flexible instructor who can disguise "lessons" as an enjoyable game for her. There is only as much pressure in lessons as people put on her. Maybe that entails calling it quits and ending on a high note after 10 or 15 minutes for the first few times - anything to make her look forward to some more of the same. If you are looking for a goal to work towards, that would be mine.


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## Idrivetrotters (Jan 5, 2013)

I have your mare but in gelding form, he is amazing on the trail but arena work? Hates it. 

Here is what I do and hopefully it helps a bit as I don't have tons of funds also. I take lessons on a finished horse so I know what the correct movement feels like and how to properly ask for it. Once I'm 100% with what skill I'm working on, I then take it back and work on it but on the trail. 20m circles around tree stumps, shoulder in, turn on haunches/forehand, even working more of my leg by sidepassing etc. It allows me to work on goals but keep my horse less stressed. If you can have your trainer come out to you if you can or ship in and have a lesson on your horse at the show to get that final polish, that's how we roll.


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## kiltsrhott (Mar 11, 2012)

Idrivetrotters said:


> I have your mare but in gelding form, he is amazing on the trail but arena work? Hates it.
> 
> Here is what I do and hopefully it helps a bit as I don't have tons of funds also. I take lessons on a finished horse so I know what the correct movement feels like and how to properly ask for it. Once I'm 100% with what skill I'm working on, I then take it back and work on it but on the trail. 20m circles around tree stumps, shoulder in, turn on haunches/forehand, even working more of my leg by sidepassing etc. It allows me to work on goals but keep my horse less stressed. If you can have your trainer come out to you if you can or ship in and have a lesson on your horse at the show to get that final polish, that's how we roll.


It's really good to know my horse and I aren't alone in this and that others are managing to work towards their riding goals AND keep their anxious horses. This sounds like an excellent work around. I've done this in the past when Ursula has been having a bad time of it and keep trying to go back to lessons on Ursula, but maybe this is what we need to do long term. Thanks!


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## MissLulu (Feb 3, 2019)

mmshiro said:


> Seems like you don't need a new horse, you need a compatible and flexible instructor who can disguise "lessons" as an enjoyable game for her. There is only as much pressure in lessons as people put on her. Maybe that entails calling it quits and ending on a high note after 10 or 15 minutes for the first few times - anything to make her look forward to some more of the same. If you are looking for a goal to work towards, that would be mine.



I think this is a great idea. Find a way to make lessons fun. Can you take dressage lessons on another horse? That way you can learn dressage without stressing out your girl. 



One thing my trainer has said to me is how frustrated she gets when she is giving a lesson to a child and, half way through, they do something perfect that was a challenge before and the trainer wants to quit on a good note and the parents are, "We paid for an hour lesson.... the kid must do an hour lesson!!" If I ever decide to write a book, "End on a Good Note", will be the title.



I have read through all the posts but may have missed something so please clarify if I am wrong. Mounting/dismounting is an issue as well as two people handling Ursula. Can you do these things away from the arena (which seems to cause her stress). Work someplace she is comfortable. 



I'm a new horse owner (I have had Lulu since December of last year) but I have had a bit of experience training dogs. When training a fearful dog I work in very short sessions (10-15 minutes), use lots of treats and praise, and work only at a level that the dog can handle (so if you are 20 feet away from the scary object, so be it). 



Ursula looks like a lovely horse. I hope you can figure her out.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

"One thing my trainer has said to me is how frustrated she gets when she is giving a lesson to a child and, *half way through, they do something perfect that was a challenge before and the trainer wants to quit on a good note and the parents are, "We paid for an hour lesson.*... the kid must do an hour lesson!!" If I ever decide to write a book, "End on a Good Note", will be the title."


They paid for the time they should get the time and a good trainer can always end on a good note if they are conscientious about what they are asking the student to do prior to ending the lesson. Go back to something she/he knows they know and will do well then end on that and praise. It doesn't hurt to also be prepared to go over a few minutes if that is what it takes too. Or there is the reward for that getting it right by giving high praise and saying you've earned a free time (not free as in added lesson but lets work 15 more on something else then take your last 15 and do something of your choice. Kids happy, parents happy (or not) and trainer has rewarded the work.



You sign up for hour lesson you get hour lesson. Or how ever it is understood. If they signed on and clearly understood it wasn't the time they were paying for but the perfect ending then ok end there. Too many though won't pay for that sort of lesson and she would find herself short of students I suspect. Here tacking is part of the process. In the beginning it may be 1/2 hour tacking and 1/2 riding. After several weeks it becomes 15 tacking and 45 riding then after they have been at it enough that they don't have to be watched over tacking they get that full hour and come early to go get the horse and tack and are getting on the horse ready to ride at the assigned time. It is made clear that is how it works so there is no one feeling shorted. Lessons start with warm up, movements to aid balance or increase strength, review, move to something new then go back to something on the review list that she knows they will do well at. The very beginner beginners the balance and strength comes at the end with the horse stopped but she still ends with an exercise they are all capable of. Time for each of those components is dependent on the level of rider. The highest levels are expected to have the horse in the ring warmed up and done all their strength or balance before the lesson starts then the lesson focuses on what they need to learn.


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## MissLulu (Feb 3, 2019)

@QtrBel The trainer is very generous with her time. The time is always made up with another lesson. 



And some parents won't accept going back to something the child knows. Child has been frustrated for a long time trying to learn a skill. Child finally accomplishes that skill. Praise and happy kid  ...... Parent: "Now go on to the next thing!" The type of parent that thinks their kid will be at Wimbledon or playing for the NFL by the time they are 14 (sorry, couldn't think of a horse event equivalent).


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Winning the derby, competing Grand Prix, World Championship in some division.... There will always be parents like that. If she is making up the time that's good but why not go on? I'd be curious to know. Not that I expect an answer. Each trainer has their own philosophy and knows the kids they work with.


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## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

QtrBel said:


> "One thing my trainer has said to me is how frustrated she gets when she is giving a lesson to a child and, *half way through, they do something perfect that was a challenge before and the trainer wants to quit on a good note and the parents are, "We paid for an hour lesson.*... the kid must do an hour lesson!!" If I ever decide to write a book, "End on a Good Note", will be the title."


You have to end on *a* good note, yes, but you don't have to end *as soon as* there is a positive learning outcome (for student and horse). The horse has a much shorter time horizon than that. Give the horse generous release after the tricky skill was accomplished, then - for the remainder of the lesson - do something zero-risk and rewarding that'll guarantee ending on a good note at the end of the allotted time. I'm pretty sure a competent trainer/coach can come up with something.

NB: This does not appear to be QtrBel's quote, but I'm too lazy to dig back to find the original. My response is to the content of the quote only, and the original author as appropriate.


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## MissLulu (Feb 3, 2019)

I'm done. I'm not expressing myself well and and everyone is taking my quote as not intended. This is totally derailing the OP's question and that was not my intent.


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