# Any atheists within this group



## Joe4d

we illegally invade their airspace and hit em and the surrounding village with a drone. Then scratch our heads and wonder why they hate us.


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## demonwolfmoon

depends how rude they are.

I am not a believer but I respect the religious beliefs of others.

To some people I've met, no matter how morally I live my life, Im an evil Jezebel on a path straight to the fiery pits of hell. To those people, like my mom, for example, I poke holes in their shoddy, pot calling kettle black, not practicing what they preach, hypocritical "beliefs".

There are many, many good people in this world of various religions. Just because my beliefs arent the same as theirs does not mean that I dont deserve the same respect and dignity


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## Darrin

Saddlebag said:


> I'd be most interested in hearing your take on dealing with religious folks who rudely try to push their beliefs on others.


Trust me, this has nothing to do with atheism, they'll do the same to you if you're just another faith than them. Why? It's there personality and desire to convert people. All you can do is avoid these types of people best you can. If it's a co worker tell them politely that you're not interested, if that doesn't work it's HR time.


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## SorrelHorse

Joe, I choked on my soda. I was gonna say something along those lines, but you beat me to it!

In my personal life then...lol

I often just avoid the subject, change it if possible, an bite my tongue to stay composed. If someone is being totally uncalled for rude, I politely tell them that it is not their place to judge. If they truly believe I am a sinner, they should leave me to my judgement after my death. 

I had one person tell me I was going to hell because I was wearing a short dress and had my hair dyed red on Halloween. I was working at a restaurant at the time and serving her food. I told her that if she wanted to judge me on my looks, she could find somewhere else to eat her chicken strips and fries. She huffed, said a word to my manager (Who burst out laughing at her complaint) and left.


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## alexischristina

It depends. I've had people come into my WORK and hand out pamphlets. I told them I wasn't interested and they asked me to take them, said they were an 'interesting read anyway'. They were polite, but they were still forceful and in a place of work... My boss was absolutely livid. The same people have come to my house countless times, one of the women tried to 'covert' my sister in her kindergarten class. That's too far, we were never polite to them after that. 

I've also been told to 'repent or spend eternity in the lake of fire' at the train station. That one was funny. 

And then there's the time someone on this forum sent me a PM begging me to accept Jesus or ill go to hell. The message was pages long, and I had half a mind to reem them out and report the message.

The point is- I have never pushed my views on others and haven't known many other people who aren't religious who demand everyone else a abandon their religion because it 'isn't right' and I hate hate hate that people think that because they are 'good -insert whatever religion here-' that they have the right to get in my face about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jumanji321

I either change the subject or say I respect their beliefs, but do not share them. If that doesn't work I can just walk away.


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## Darrin

When I lived in NM hardly a weekend went by that someone didn't come to my house to try and convert me. I ended by putting up a gate and chaining it shut on the weekends, luckily they respected that as a sign not to bother me. I moved back to Oregon 9 years ago and haven't had a single person show up at my door to convert me.


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## Saddlebag

Religion has been removed from most schools in Canada. The reasoning behind this is that a child's religious teachings, or lack of, belong with the parents and not the schools. We have more than enough churches to teach religion.


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## alexischristina

Religion was removed from my sisters' school as well- the woman in question was a parent lunch time classroom monitor. I agree religion has no place in classrooms because there is no 'cut and dry' and at that age children can't understand 'options'.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CLaPorte432

i wouldnt say im necessarily an atheist, but i just avoid the subject of religion and my eyes tend to get this glazed effect when someone tries talking to me regarding religion.

we've had people come to out house...thats back in the woods 300 yards...and hand out papers. if i accidently answer the door, usually i hide, then i have 3 big, loud dogs, and ill crack the door, make it quick, and then throw whatever they give me away.

if someone starts chatting with me at work or somewhere im at, ill change the subject or be polite for a few, then dismiss myself. 

my mom believes but knows i am just kinda 'blah' about it like my dad, ill make a smart *** comment and she gets offended or blows me off and says 'im naughty' 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## my2geldings

Joe4d said:


> we illegally invade their airspace and hit em and the surrounding village with a drone. Then scratch our heads and wonder why they hate us.


Drones are amazing machines. I would adopt one just because.


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## tlkng1

Even as a believer I don't press. If anyone wants to know about my faith, they will ask at which time I give them the basics. IF they want to debate I can do that to as long as it remains respectful and intreresting. I am not going ot make an enemy of someone over religion/faith or lack thereof. I also fully understand the frustration as I have encountered those who want me to convert to heir faith. I've had them tell me what I believe is totally wrong and blasphemous etc. To me faith is also mutual respect; OK, I admit some faiths give me the proverbial road rage with some of their policies but since it doesn't affect me, unless they are bugging me to convert, to each their own. Now, as a caveat, if their faith was causing child abuse/hurt or other things I would intervene appropriately and within the law. As for the pamphlets, I may glance at them as learning about other faiths is actually pretty interesting but then they get added to the shred and recycle pile. Haven't seen one yet that would make me want to convert.


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## tlkng1

...at least recycle what they give you.


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## tlkng1

CLaPorte432 said:


> ill crack the door, make it quick, and then throw whatever they give me away.


At least recycle what they give you


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## my2geldings

Bahahahaahaha! that hilarious!


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## CLaPorte432

tlkng1 said:


> At least recycle what they give you


Lol. It goes in the burn pile. Cardboard...paper...boxes....etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MHFoundation Quarters

I wouldn't call myself an atheist but I don't know what I am. I believe in something greater than us but what that is I don't know and have a hard time accepting what a book (any book) tells me to believe. I am respectful of others and their religious choices and expect the same in return. DH was raised methodist, he & DD do attend a non denominational church when time allows. I don't go and he doesn't expect me to. 

That being said, this is horribly awful and I probably shouldn't admit it but what the heck right? It was the third day in a row that the same group of Jehovah's witnesses had stopped at my house and they were pretty darn pushy & rude about it. The 2nd time I asked them to leave and the woman tried to push her way into my house. Needless to say it irked me. The third time when she tried to invite herself in I couldn't help myself and said "Well, we were just about to sacrifice a goat, come on in and join me!" They never came back after that.


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## SouthernTrails

Saddlebag said:


> I'd be most interested in hearing your take on dealing with religious folks who rudely try to push their beliefs on others.


You mean like when the Atheists which are 4% of the US population try to push their agenda on the 77% Christian population in the US?

.


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## CLaPorte432

Ohhhh.....I would went beserk on that woman. My shotgun woulda met them at the door.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tlkng1

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> That being said, this is horribly awful and I probably shouldn't admit it but what the heck right? It was the third day in a row that the same group of Jehovah's witnesses had stopped at my house and they were pretty darn pushy & rude about it. The 2nd time I asked them to leave and the woman tried to push her way into my house. Needless to say it irked me. The third time when she tried to invite herself in I couldn't help myself and said "Well, we were just about to sacrifice a goat, come on in and join me!" They never came back after that.


Jehovah Witnesses aren't generally that obnoxious. Entering your home uninvited is classified as breaking and entering...I would have had no issue with calling the police, although, she wouldn't have gotten past my two dogs in the first place. "Sure..c'mon in..the girls haven't had their dinner yet....."


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## GamingGrrl

I'm an atheist. A few months back some Mormons biked up my 1/4 mile gravel drive way and asked if my parents were home. I told them it was posted no trespassing (we've got 4 signs In a 20 foot stretch a fence) and they lied and said they hadn't seen them. I told them that lying is a sin. They pedaled back like they were in the Tour De France.

Anyone who comes on my property is met with my WORST attitude.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I wouldn't call myself an atheist but I don't know what I am. I believe in something greater than us but what that is I don't know and have a hard time accepting what a book (any book) tells me to believe.


Look up Agnostic, it's what I consider myself.

Out of curiosity I took an online "what religion am I" test and it came out Neo Quaker which made me laugh. My mother was raised catholic and my father was raised non religious. But my dad's mom was catholic but his dad was a quaker so they decided their kids could do what they wanted. Shows how beliefs go from generation to generation even when parents try not to instill any belief in their kids. FYI, my parents raised both my sister and I as non religious.


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## demonwolfmoon

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> You mean like when the Atheists which are 4% of the US population try to push their agenda on the 77% Christian population in the US?
> 
> .


No, Im pretty sure they mean people barging into your house in the name of "their" god, or people that claim all Jews/muslims/Buddhists. ..any flavor but their own is going to hell for believing something different. Actually. 

Or the whole anti choice, sinners feel free to die by coathanger lobby, just because you have a different opinion. so many examples!

Ps. my hubby is a Christian and DD has expressed interest in Wicca. I could care less. I think everyone is entitled to their beliefs as long as their beliefs arent infringing on the rights of others. Would be nice if zealots would extend the rest of us the same courtesy...


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## Muppetgirl

Well this is what I do......but then again why wouldn't I do this, I am an insufferable annoyance am I not? :rofl:


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## Mochachino

****!!


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## Shropshirerosie

I don't think I've ever had anyone try to foist their beliefs on me, or convert me. Except for the JW's at the door of course and all they really want to do is give me a leaflet which goes straight in the recycling.

Son's school in England before we came to Canada was a church school, but most Church of England schools don't evangelise so much as occasionally refer to god at Christmas and Easter. However, one day he came home from school (kindergarten) with some Creationism leaflets from some visiting Church folk. I had words with the teacher and I went out and bought a whole pile of 'how the universe was formed in a big bang' and 'the story of evolution' books. He's now a committed atheist and sometimes gets into heated debates with friends at school who are not. He's seven..... 

So I try to teach him to a) respect their beliefs and b) not get into theological debates.


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## Kotori

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> I wouldn't call myself an atheist but I don't know what I am. I believe in something greater than us but what that is I don't know and have a hard time accepting what a book (any book) tells me to believe. I am respectful of others and their religious choices and expect the same in return.
> .


This is how I am, and my family doesn't understand. I put it this way "Accept one religion, and be forever judged and hated by everyone else, or accept every(and therefore no) religion and everyone wants to recruit you" 

Still not happy with it, but with a few christian friends, two wiccans and a few I'm not even sure what, it keeps the peace. That being said, if someone gets pushy with me, I start discussing the clear relationships between different religions, and how they are basically all the same with a few names changed and slightly different rules. They can't handle that and usually just give up after that.


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## alexischristina

My biggest thing is that I can't wrap my head around the idea of God. I don't believe in heaven and hell, I'm not sure what happens after we die as I do believe in ghosts / spirits (I'm half convinced my barn is haunted, but it might just be creepy). I believe in good and evil, etcetc. I don't KNOW that there isn't a God, but I choose not to accept any religion and I don't live my life to please something that may or may not exist (especially because I don't believe in heaven or hell...). I can't fathom any religion based around a supposedly 'all good' and 'all powerful' being that created the universe, because I don't believe that any God that created OUR universe and has control of our universe _could_ be all good, due to the crazy amount of unnecessary suffering you see day to day. I also could never accept the idea of living my life for anyone or anything but myself- I see people who give the credit for all the good in their lives to God and it makes me sick to my stomach, or I see someone who can only value themselves because 'God' loves them. To _me_ that isn't the type of life I would like to live, it's not a very good way to live, and I don't like being told that it's how I SHOULD be living and while that might be extreme (or not, depending) at the heart of it all the values are there and I don't agree with them. I don't think that makes me any less of a good person, but I've been told on a couple occasions that it does, in fact, hurt my level of 'good'. :lol:


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## boots

Do the same thing I do when atheists tell me I'm stupid for believing in fairy tales and/or magic.

I put on my serious, 'why would you talk to me face,' and say, "Thank you for your concern." If they persist, and they rarely do, I say, "Go away."

People who criticize the beliefs of others and belittle people for their beliefs aren't interested in communication and understanding.


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## Brighteyes

I'm not an atheist, so maybe I'm unwelcome in this discussion. But I use to be an atheist until fairly recently. When I was an atheist, nobody messed with me. I never had anyone "shoving their beliefs down my throat." I had people tell me about their religion. I told them about mine (or lack there of.) 

They thought I was wrong. I thought they were wrong. I told them they were wrong. They told me I was wrong. One of us _was _wrong. Because that's how reality works. My disbelief can't kill God, just as their belief can't create God. Disagreements happen. What constitutes "shoving religion/atheism down someone's throat" versus "I'm not afraid to say what I think because you asked"? 

Tolerance. That's the word everyone likes to use nowadays. "Tolerance" of others beliefs. Tolerance doesn't mean agreement or approval. I believe tolerance means_ agree to disagree._

It seems like every time someone states their religious beliefs someone has to get offended. When I was an atheist, I told people straight up I didn't believe in God. I'm a Christian now, and I tell people straight up that I do believe in God and Jesus and the whole Bible shebang. Using the same words and the same tone and the same almost everything. And guess what? People got a lot more ****ed off when I spoke about Christianity. It's like they _want _to get offended. Or don't know what it means to be properly offended. Or what "shove in the face" actually means!

To have a belief shoved in your face means that you're constantly annoyed and the subject is brought up when the conversation isn't even about religion. If you can't escape it by shutting the door, changing the subject, or walking away, _that's_ shoving. Shoving is bullying, basically.

I've been properly shoved only once. Ironically, by an atheist shortly after I converted. She messaged me on facebook, texted me daily, and brought it up everyone she saw me. She insulted my intelligence, because Christians are obviously "close minded idiots." *eyeroll* Unless you're dealing with this sort of crap... You aren't having religion shoved in your faces. Your Christian friend who invites you to church and openly says she believes in God isn't shoving anything. Being given a pamphlet in a public place isn't shoving. You can throw that crap away and not even read it. I've been given so many pamphlets I never read I could create a forest. Someone preaching in a public place. Practice with me: put your hands over your eyes and go "la la la la la!" Because we're all adults here, and we have brain filters to shift through the crap we hear.

Remember: Promote what you love. Don't bash what you hate. :wink:


Ignore my disjointed ranty thingy.  I re-read it, and it sounds a little yell-y. The internet poorly translates tone. I'm not mad or yelling.


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## Saddlebag

Southern, the number of Atheits is more like 40%. It seems when census is done, there's no little box for Atheist. Alexi, I agree 100%. I would never tell anyone they are delusional for believing in God, or Santa or Tinkerbell, unless really pushed. I believe in allowing others to live their life as they see fit and not passing my beliefs or disbeliefs on anyone. Same with politics. And I expect the same from them. I think most atheists feel that way.


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## tlkng1

Shropshirerosie said:


> However, one day he came home from school (kindergarten) with some Creationism leaflets from some visiting Church folk.


This always irritates me and as a Lutheran I went to a Catholic HS and the nuns were flummoxed when I said what I am about to say.

Creation, or in this case the idea of creationism, is NOT the same as evolution. To evolve something must first exist even in its simplest elements. Create, or creationism, means bringing those elements into existence. Creationism and evolution are two different concepts even if creationism on its own can't be proven scientifically.

Those that keep pushing creationism as the only way "we" came in to existence and evolution is all a lie (even though we HAVE scientific proof there that evolution exists and existed) must have missed a lot of basic science classes in their day.


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## SouthernTrails

demonwolfmoon said:


> No, Im pretty sure they mean people barging into your house in the name of "their" god


I was quoting the original post, but yes anyone who barges in your home is wrong and also to be rude and pushy does not set well with me either :wink:



Saddlebag said:


> Southern, the number of Atheits is more like 40%. It seems when census is done, there's no little box for Atheist.


In the world, 40% is about right. 



> At the same time, the number of Americans who say they are atheists rose, from 1 percent to 5 percent.


In the US 5%, just one of many published articles confirming 5% in the US, several others studies are saying the 4%.

Atheism Rises, Religiosity Declines In America



People have the right to believe what they want.... there are overbearing zealots on both sides of the equation.

.


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## CowboyBob

Brighteyes said:


> I'm not an atheist, so maybe I'm unwelcome in this discussion. But I use to be an atheist until fairly recently. When I was an atheist, nobody messed with me. I never had anyone "shoving their beliefs down my throat." I had people tell me about their religion. I told them about mine (or lack there of.)
> 
> They thought I was wrong. I thought they were wrong. I told them they were wrong. They told me I was wrong. One of us _was _wrong. Because that's how reality works. My disbelief can't kill God, just as their belief can't create God. Disagreements happen. What constitutes "shoving religion/atheism down someone's throat" versus "I'm not afraid to say what I think because you asked"?
> 
> Tolerance. That's the word everyone likes to use nowadays. "Tolerance" of others beliefs. Tolerance doesn't mean agreement or approval. I believe tolerance means_ agree to disagree._
> 
> It seems like every time someone states their religious beliefs someone has to get offended. When I was an atheist, I told people straight up I didn't believe in God. I'm a Christian now, and I tell people straight up that I do believe in God and Jesus and the whole Bible shebang. Using the same words and the same tone and the same almost everything. And guess what? People got a lot more ****ed off when I spoke about Christianity. It's like they _want _to get offended. Or don't know what it means to be properly offended. Or what "shove in the face" actually means!
> 
> To have a belief shoved in your face means that you're constantly annoyed and the subject is brought up when the conversation isn't even about religion. If you can't escape it by shutting the door, changing the subject, or walking away, _that's_ shoving. Shoving is bullying, basically.
> 
> I've been properly shoved only once. Ironically, by an atheist shortly after I converted. She messaged me on facebook, texted me daily, and brought it up everyone she saw me. She insulted my intelligence, because Christians are obviously "close minded idiots." *eyeroll* Unless you're dealing with this sort of crap... You aren't having religion shoved in your faces. Your Christian friend who invites you to church and openly says she believes in God isn't shoving anything. Being given a pamphlet in a public place isn't shoving. You can throw that crap away and not even read it. I've been given so many pamphlets I never read I could create a forest. Someone preaching in a public place. Practice with me: put your hands over your eyes and go "la la la la la!" Because we're all adults here, and we have brain filters to shift through the crap we hear.
> 
> Remember: Promote what you love. Don't bash what you hate. :wink:
> 
> 
> Ignore my disjointed ranty thingy.  I re-read it, and it sounds a little yell-y. The internet poorly translates tone. I'm not mad or yelling.


 
Great post I could not have said it better and won't try. I agree 100% I wish I could like it twice.


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## alexischristina

Brighteyes said:


> I'm not an atheist, so maybe I'm unwelcome in this discussion. But I use to be an atheist until fairly recently. When I was an atheist, nobody messed with me. I never had anyone "shoving their beliefs down my throat." I had people tell me about their religion. I told them about mine (or lack there of.)
> 
> They thought I was wrong. I thought they were wrong. I told them they were wrong. They told me I was wrong. One of us _was _wrong. Because that's how reality works. My disbelief can't kill God, just as their belief can't create God. Disagreements happen. *What constitutes "shoving religion/atheism down someone's throat" versus "I'm not afraid to say what I think because you asked"? *
> 
> Tolerance. That's the word everyone likes to use nowadays. "Tolerance" of others beliefs. Tolerance doesn't mean agreement or approval. I believe tolerance means_ agree to disagree._
> 
> It seems like every time someone states their religious beliefs someone has to get offended. When I was an atheist, I told people straight up I didn't believe in God. I'm a Christian now, and I tell people straight up that I do believe in God and Jesus and the whole Bible shebang. Using the same words and the same tone and the same almost everything. And guess what? People got a lot more ****ed off when I spoke about Christianity. It's like they _want _to get offended. Or don't know what it means to be properly offended. Or what "shove in the face" actually means!
> 
> To have a belief shoved in your face means that you're constantly annoyed and the subject is brought up when the conversation isn't even about religion. If you can't escape it by shutting the door, changing the subject, or walking away, _that's_ shoving. Shoving is bullying, basically.
> 
> I've been properly shoved only once. Ironically, by an atheist shortly after I converted. She messaged me on facebook, texted me daily, and brought it up everyone she saw me. She insulted my intelligence, because Christians are obviously "close minded idiots." *eyeroll* Unless you're dealing with this sort of crap... You aren't having religion shoved in your faces. Your Christian friend who invites you to church and openly says she believes in God isn't shoving anything. Being given a pamphlet in a public place isn't shoving. You can throw that crap away and not even read it. I've been given so many pamphlets I never read I could create a forest. Someone preaching in a public place. Practice with me: put your hands over your eyes and go "la la la la la!" Because we're all adults here, and we have brain filters to shift through the crap we hear.
> 
> Remember: Promote what you love. Don't bash what you hate. :wink:
> 
> 
> Ignore my disjointed ranty thingy.  I re-read it, and it sounds a little yell-y. The internet poorly translates tone. I'm not mad or yelling.



To the question posed, the answer is IN the question and it's 'being asked'. I, personally, feel that being asked (after you've expressed you aren't interested in the religion) to attend church IS shoving (especially if you're asked more than once). Standing on a street corner / train / bus stop / etc. and 'spreading the word of Jesus' is shoving. Giving me a pamphlet that tells me I'm going to rot in hell if I don't repent my sins IS shoving. Someone preaching in a public place? I'm on the fence. With the intent of addressing like minded people, go ahead. With the intent to convert? Shoving. Coming into my place of work, where I'm paid to be polite? Definitely shoving.

I shouldn't have to tell customers 'no, sorry, I'm not interested in your religion' when I go to work, I shouldn't have to find a trash bin for their pamphlets on the train or the bus, I should be able to go about my day without being converted because I didn't ask to be converted, I didn't ask about their religion, and I didn't offer to tell them all about the ways of the non-believer.

I'm not constantly annoyed by the topic of religion, I talk to my Catholic friend about her religion often, but I ask and she tells, she knows I don't believe and she doesn't question that but she's happy to satisfy my curiosity. Of course there are going to be nasty atheists too, there are 'nasties' in any group, but just because one person is rude doesn't mean another has to be too.


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## FlyGap

I agree with Brighteyes too.

Atheists and Religious people are all prone to suffering the same condition which is human nature... Which means that they will twist their beliefs and the content thereof to suit themselves then impose it on others to get their way.

Until that stops the world will remain the same...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SouthernTrails

alexischristina said:


> Standing on a street corner / train / bus stop / etc. and 'spreading the word of Jesus' is shoving.
> 
> Giving me a pamphlet that tells me I'm going to rot in hell if I don't repent my sins IS shoving.
> 
> Someone preaching in a public place? I'm on the fence.


Standing on a Street corner or other Public place is shoving?

Giving you a pamphlet is shoving? People hand out flyers and pamplet about 100's of things, say thank you and throw it in the trash :wink:

Your last sentence really contradicts your 1st one :lol:


What about Atheists suing everyone for any mention of praying or God (our money says in God we Trust, maybe quit using money then), and the real kicker - demanding we do not say Merry Christmas and instead we must say Happy Holidays.... that is not shoving?... OK, whatever

.


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## GamingGrrl

I don't care if someone says "merry Christmas". I don't care if someone says "happy holidays". I'm just happy that someone said something pleasant, even if walmart's paying them to do it. 
The difference between a Christian fanatic phamplet being handed out and one for a local business or college is that the second one isn't going to tell me that I'll rot for an eternity because I happen to be bisexual.
The "happy holidays" pushers are most likely the pushy atheists.
There's bad apples in every group.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OutOfTheLoop

I don't believe there is a "God", I don't believe in heaven and hell. I also don't go around announcing this fact because to each their own. My fiance occasionally will go to church and take my daughter with him if she wants to go.I don't tell him not to, if he chooses to believe, who am I to try and change his mind. If daughter chooses to believe, that is her choice.

I have people stop me at work all the time and invite me to different churches. Am I rude and tell them I don't believe in god? No, because I am not trying to talk about my lack of religion with anyone who thinks otherwise. I am polite and smile and nod my head untill they go on their way. If it brightens their day to invite people to church, then I sure do not want to steal thier sunshine. 

When people knock on my door and want to talk to me about Jesus coming to save my sins, again, I smile and nod my head AMD send them on thier happy little way.

Who am I to judge these people for what they believe in, and I smile and nod because I surely don't want them to judge me either. If they want to leave me thinking wow she was a nice sweet woman, them I am proud to say that I am a good person. Who needs judgement flying around persuading people's emotions about other people. It sure doesnt have a place in my world. 

If I am flat out asked if I believe, then I will tell you no. If you ask why, I will explain my reasoning, but I don't volunteer the information. I don't run down the road screaming I don't believe in god and you shouldn't either. That's just uncalled for, and the shoe fits both ways.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alexischristina

How is it contradictory? You can be in public practicing your religion all you want. As soon as you start actively trying to convert me, I consider it shoving.


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## OutOfTheLoop

As far as saying merry Christmas, I tell people merry Christmas. I know it is a religious holiday, but i was raised in a christian home, and I try to keep some respect for the people around me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> Standing on a Street corner or other Public place is shoving?
> 
> Giving you a pamphlet is shoving?
> 
> 
> What about Atheists suing everyone for any mention of praying or God (our money says in God we Trust, maybe quit using money then), and the real kicker - demanding we do not say Merry Christmas and instead we must say Happy Holidays.... that is not shoving?... OK, whatever
> 
> .


believe it or not, im really really uncomfortable with people shoving pamphlets and stuff. you know those tables outside of walmart? they are asking donations for recovery centers, veterans, girl scouts etc? I feel anxious and upset when I go past them. sometimes, like when im curious and ask whats going on, thats one thing. covering all exits and attacking me going in and out is another. THAT is shoving. 

as for sue happy people...its about the same as those able bodied people that go around looking for places wihout wheelchair ramps, to sue. D-bags, IMO. Nothing wrong with a moment of silence in schools to meditate, pray, or think about Legos at recess. The only problem is when you apply force.

My Dds dad tries to enforce prayer, and it makes her really uncomfortable. By trying to force people, they just get pushed further away. I told her to nap instead lol.

But yeah, I dont have any reapect for ugly, angry, overzealous athiests, any more than ugly, angry, overzealous religious people. Take a chill pill, already.


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## DancingArabian

For me it depends on the situation.

If they knock on my door and won't go away, I'll tell them I'm a LaVeyan Satanist and try to convert them. (If anyone's curious: LaVeyan Satanism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) I think my speech needs work though, because I can't ever get anyone to listen to all of it.

If they're in another setting, I try to debate with them and see how much I can get them doubting themselves.

Of course, neither happens if they listen to my "No, thank you" that I start out with.**

** Unless it's my mother, who is a pastor, in which case I just try to be polite. She's my mom after all.


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## Saddlebag

I've had evangelicals make a point of handing me their literature, have been invited to sit at my table in a busy restaurant only to rudely interrupt conversation so they can pray over their toast. Waitress no long politely waits. I am continually invited to attend their church and get phone calls to watch religious programs on tv. I have always been polite. They ignore the No Visitor sign at the hospital and go in anyway so they can pray over someone. I feel my breaking point is nearing. One woman had a peace bond put on one woman. She can neither phone nor approach within 100'. It's a sad state of affairs when it gets to this point.


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## Brighteyes

alexischristina said:


> How is it contradictory? You can be in public practicing your religion all you want. As soon as you start actively trying to convert me, I consider it shoving.




Actively converting? That pamphlet isn't going to behead you if you don't read it. :wink: Don't wanna waste your time trying to throw it away? Let the people trying to give it to you that you REALLY aren't interested. If they press, tell them to leave you the hell alone. If they don't leave you the hell alone, you have a case. I'll give it to you; that's shoving, and I apologize if that ever happens to you. 

But no one can convert you. No one can make up your mind and force you to believe anything. That's why when people complain that they're having something "forced upon them", I just laugh. Because unless there's a "convert or ELSE!" and a threat of some sort, there isn't any force involved. Sure it's uber annoying, but "forced" and "shoved" is a little dramatic. 

Christian need to learn this too. People convert themselves. People make their own decisions. Christians don't save people; people save themselves. If someone does not want, they DO NOT WANT. Wipe the dust from your feet and move on. (That's in the Bible!) Worry about yourself, Christians-who-annoy-the-crap-out-of-people. If you feel like to need to "save" people to feel good about yourselves, you have a spiritual problem. Plant the seed and let it grow on its own accord. If people wanted religion in this age of easy to access information, they have the opportunities to seek it themselves. 

But in today's world everyone has got to learn to not be offended by crap that doesn't even matter. If you (general you; I'm not attacking you or anything, Alexis. Feel the internet love!) can't tune people out, you have a problem. It's like in grade school and that kid told you that you were a fat, ugly cow. It isn't true, so why does it matter to you? :lol:

I understand being sensitive and getting upset. I feel really pressured when I pass by donation stands outside of Walmart and give them no money.  But those people get passed up by hundreds of people a day. I'm just one, and they won't hate me for it. Or even remember me, for that matter. Once I realized the only one who cared was me, I stopped caring. And then NO ONE cared!

^^ Was that even related? Only a little. I'm just insecure too. <33


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## alexischristina

What about "repent now or spend eternity in the lake of fire", is that a 'convert or else'? Using (or attempting to use) fear as a lever is going a little above and beyond, I think. 

Honestly, it is *my opinion* (that I am entitled to :lol that people coming into public places and trying to get me to 'make the switch' IS shoving. If you don't think it's shoving then GREAT, that's your opinion and you can have it, it doesn't hurt me. :wink:


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## DancingArabian

Brighteyes said:


> Actively converting? That pamphlet isn't going to behead you if you don't read it. :wink: Don't wanna waste your time trying to throw it away? Let the people trying to give it to you that you REALLY aren't interested. If they press, tell them to leave you the hell alone. If they don't leave you the hell alone, you have a case. I'll give it to you; that's shoving, and I apologize if that ever happens to you.
> 
> But no one can convert you. No one can make up your mind and force you to believe anything. That's why when people complain that they're having something "forced upon them", I just laugh. Because unless there's a "convert or ELSE!" and a threat of some sort, there isn't any force involved. Sure it's uber annoying, but "forced" and "shoved" is a little dramatic.
> 
> Christian need to learn this too. People convert themselves. People make their own decisions. Christians don't save people; people save themselves. If someone does not want, they DO NOT WANT. Wipe the dust from your feet and move on. (That's in the Bible!)
> 
> But in today's world everyone has got to learn to not be offended by crap that doesn't even matter. If you (general you; I'm not attacking you or anything, Alexis. Feel the internet love!) can't tune people out, you have a problem. It's like in grade school and that kid told you that you were a fat, ugly cow. It isn't true, so why does it matter to you? :lol:
> 
> I understand being sensitive and getting upset. I feel really pressured when I pass by donation stands outside of Walmart and give them no money.  But those people get passed up by hundreds of people a day. I'm just one, and they won't hate me for it. Or even remember me, for that matter. Once I realized the only one who cared was me, I stopped caring. And then NO ONE cared!
> 
> ^^ Was that even related? Only a little. I'm just insecure too. <33



Let's put it another way. Unless someone has said they are open to being approached, it's shoving -- because its unwanted and unwelcome and offputting to have to deal with it. Yes you can tell someone to take their little pamphlet and shove it, but why should you have to deal with it in the first place if you haven't expressed a desire to learn about the religion? It's like an unwanted telemarketing call but at your door!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Brighteyes

I do hate when Christians do that. It's against the religion. That isn't how Jesus spread the word. :? Hell, a lot of what people try to do to Christianity isn't "what the good book said" at all. Especially in the areas of the church and ministry. 

But that's another rant for another day! 

The awesome thing is, you don't believe in the lake of fire and that kind of manipulation has no effect on you. So life long and prosper, Alexis. If anyone uses fear against you or anyone else, you have my blessing to tell them to **** off. Because they need a "ur doing wrong" smack in the face. :wink:

Wrong or right, we're always confronted with belief systems that conflict with each other. In public, in private. Everywhere. People will annoy the hell out of you and there is no way to stop it. It's an inconvenient world, but there's no need to let it ruin your day.

(PS: I hate pamphlets too. That annoyed atheist me to a rage. And annoys Christian me even more because I know everyone hates it.) 

The best way for Christians and atheists a like to keep strong is to know what you believe. Keep an open mind, but not so much your brain's falling out. You're a sifter, not a sponge! :lol: 

(I'll stop now. I love to talk.)


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## Darrin

DancingArabian said:


> Let's put it another way. Unless someone has said they are open to being approached, it's shoving -- because its unwanted and unwelcome and offputting to have to deal with it. Yes you can tell someone to take their little pamphlet and shove it, but why should you have to deal with it in the first place if you haven't expressed a desire to learn about the religion? It's like an unwanted telemarketing call but at your door!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're in public and have to expect to be approached, just politely tell them you're not interested and keep moving or ignore them and keep moving. It's no different then a local store trying to hand you a sale flyer, girl scouts asking if you want to buy cookies or the local whatever club trying to get you to pull in for a car wash fund raiser. If those activities don't equally **** you off then I think it's time to take a really hard long think on why.


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## alexischristina

They don't '**** me off', they do make me feel uncomfortable, but I don't have any sort of emotional reaction and there's no 'thinking' needed, I know why. It's because sales flyers, girl scout cookies, etc. are pretty trivial things, religion on the other hand is something that takes up a good chunk of a lot of people's lives. Even if I don't have a religion does not mean my beliefs are not important to me, I've spent a great deal of time sorting out what I currently believe and will continue to spend a great deal of time and mental energy on my beliefs. For THAT reason I feel like it's an invasion when people are there to tell me that I'm wrong and they're right and I need to convert to their 'better' way of thinking. The last time I checked (most) people don't put quite as much energy into what sort of girl scout cookies they're going to buy.


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## Roperchick

i have no problems with people comjng up and stiking up a conversation about their beliefa. But ho estly ask me first. I was raised christian and I suppose I still am?? Its more like a stuck in a rut and dont know what to believe. But I can talk with anybody about it.

I do have problems when somebody decides to force it on me. Like look, I respect that everybody has the right to their own beliefs and to voiceit...doesnt mean im going to agree with you or want you to FORCE me to believe what you believe


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## Mochachino

I just don't like it when people come knocking on my door. If I want to know about it I will find you and ask but don't be coming onto my property and be knocking and talking to my kids etc.


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## Shropshirerosie

Well I want to know why I've never been offered Girl Scout Cookies? Not fair!


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## Muppetgirl

Shropshirerosie said:


> Well I want to know why I've never been offered Girl Scout Cookies? Not fair!


I'm selling them this fall! Want some? No? That's too bad, you're going to fry!!! :rofl:


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## DancingArabian

Darrin said:


> You're in public and have to expect to be approached, just politely tell them you're not interested and keep moving or ignore them and keep moving. It's no different then a local store trying to hand you a sale flyer, girl scouts asking if you want to buy cookies or the local whatever club trying to get you to pull in for a car wash fund raiser. If those activities don't equally **** you off then I think it's time to take a really hard long think on why.


I'm talking about when they knock on your door. The only one of those activities in public that isn't annoying are the Girl Scouts and that's because who doesn't love their cookies? I only get really mad when they're bothering me when I'm at home. Thankfully, door to door solicitations are banned where I live now so its no longer a problem.

And as for the pamphlets, I do feel bad about it. They spend money making those things and most just end up in the trash. It's not good for their coffers nor the environment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DancingArabian

Shropshirerosie said:


> Well I want to know why I've never been offered Girl Scout Cookies? Not fair!


I want to know where you live so I don't go there!


I dislike when organizations loiter and try to bother me for my money, and give me some story about why they deserve it. If I want to donate, I will seek out the place I want to donate to. Don't try to convince me that one summer of soccer camp(or whatever) is going to revolutionize the world and that its a better expenditure than anything I would get for myself, family or animals. I hate the presumption and implication of being a bad person because you don't want to buy the newspaper or allegedly help some group to somewhere or whatever.

Besides, I don't donate money. I donate things. Usually blankets, towels, kitty litter and food to the local shelter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fourteen

You are sadly mistaken if you think agendas and beliefs on both sides of the spiritual coin aren't being "shoved" (if that's the word you want to use) down the collective throats of the community.

People are so upset when they are offered something to read that's of a religious nature, they accuse the religious person of "shoving" their agenda in their face in public, at work, at home. REALLY? Aren't other moral/spiritual beliefs shoved in everyone's faces every day, on TV, at school, in the workplace, on the radio, in the newspaper?

If you don't belong to a religion that celebrates Christmas, how much Christmas is shoved in your face in December. Everywhere you go, there are Christmas carrols, decorations, ads, etc ad nauseum. School learning programs (at least in the younger grades) are designed around holiday-themed activities.

Turn on the TV...if you are a person who doesn't agree with the homosexual lifestyle...it's being constantly shoved in your face that this morality is acceptable, right, whatever you want to call it.

For the atheists out there...the theory of evolution is taught in schools as a fact, when actually it is still an unproven theory. Sorry, but that's the truth. There are many scientists who don't believe in evolution, but that's not discussed. Evolution is presented as unassailable fact. Shoving much?

So cry me a river. Everyone's agendas are out there being "shoved" down everyone's throats, if that's the verbage you want to use. As has been stated, if you don't like it, ignore it. We live in a country where free speech is a constitutional right, and that right is one that each and every one of you enjoy on a daily basis. If you can't stand it that someone else exercises that right in their own way, then move somewhere where every word and action is regulated by the powers that be. But remember what you will lose in the process.


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## Saddlebag

In Ontario, religious folks are not allowed on school property for the purpose of prosthelitizing or for handing out religious literature. Would you believe some will pounce on the kids once they step off school property, with no regard for the child's family's beliefs.


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## Fourteen

Saddlebag said:


> In Ontario, religious folks are not allowed on school property for the purpose of prosthelitizing or for handing out religious literature. Would you believe some will pounce on the kids once they step off school property, with no regard for the child's family's beliefs.


And yet in Ontario, religious beliefs (or the lack of) are discussed on school property ALL THE TIME. Again, religiously based holidays, evolution, etc. All discussed freely. There are some public schools where bible schools are carried out ON SCHOOL PROPERTY after school hours and the students are all given a *SHOCK!* pamphlet to invite them. And yet, there are no requests made from the parents of the kids of said schools, to see if the parents agree with this or like this. *"No regard for the child's family's beliefs"* much? There are plenty of kids in those schools who don't celebrate those holidays, who don't believe in the bible, nor are taught to be religious at home. So who'se being offensive now?

I'm not taking sides. I'm simply pointing out that people are highly hypocritcal on this subject. They take high offense to certain people expressing their religious beliefs and the way they choose to do so in a free-speech society, but have no problems with others' and the way they "shove" their religion/morals/atheism down the throats of many who don't agree.

And I take exception to inflamatory verbage like "shoving" and "pouncing". No one literally shoves and pounces. But it sounds so much worse when you make it sound like people are out there preying on innocent little children behind their parents backs.


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## CowboyBob

So I have been thinking about this thread all night, there were only 3 pages last night now there are 6. I am sorry, last night I read all 3 pages, this morning due to time I don't read the another 3 pages. so pages 4-6 sorry.

Here is my take on all this, I have been apart of this forum for a few months now and I have been apart of conversations about helmets, training methods, definitions of words, and even lately how far should your foot be in the stirrup when you ride. I hear lots of opinions on both sides of each conversation. I have never heard someone say. In the thread about stirrups, no one has said "how dare that trainer fores her believes on you".

I find it amazing that any of use would try to help a friend or family member that was anorexic or bulimic, we would try and find them help and would tell them we care for them and we think they are killing themselves. 
Would you look at a friend that was addicted to meth and said "I don't want to tell you how to live..." or " you live the way you want, I will live the way I want". We might if we didn't really care about that person, but if we really cared for that person we would do everything in our power to try and get the friend to see that they need help. 
Now to us others words against them who are you to tell a meth addict or a anorexic they shouldn't live the way they are living. Or. How can someone push there believes about helmets on other to make someone put on a helmet that doesn't want to.

Now I am not saying that anyone here in the thread has done this, I just know of people that have and do and I would bet so do the rest of you. The thing they are pushing might be different but the idea of "pushing believes" on others we all do it in some way. Whether its Helmets, seat belts, natural horsemanship, feeding treats, clicker training, drugs, smoking, drinking, speeding, breeds of horses, should I breed my mare, politics and religion or lack of religion. We all have things we feel are important and depending on how important we feel the thing is depends on how and who we are willing to talk to about that thing. 
If you really believe that helmets are one of the best thing in the world to make you safer on a horse then you will not only wear one yourself you will try to help others see the importants of helmet and that they should also wear a helmet. So by telling others about the benefits of wearing a helmet when riding do you see yourself "shoving your believes down every ones throat"? or are you just trying to help them because you feel strongly about helmets?

where I live we get a good number of Mormons that stop by and want to talk, I have never be offended, can it be frustrating to stop what I am doing to answer the door and talk to someone, yes. But, I feel the same way when the phone rings no matter how it is. 
So I have to ask, as a Christian I have believes, but what I am hear from some of you is I am ok and free to tell people about what I believe is best in the realm of horseback riding or really in any part of live except what I believe in the area of religion???? Now, if I was not a Christian then it's ok to tell others that being a "believer" is dumb; right? But, since I am a Christian the things I believe most be kept to myself?? I can tell someone I believe they should wear their seat belt, or that they should stop smoking or that they should or don't have to wear a helmet when they ride. But I can't tell them I believe there is one God the creator of the universe and He sent His son Jesus to die so that I a sinner can stand righteous before Him??

Wouldn't it make since that if you believe that "believers" should not share their faith that you would also believe that no one should share anything; and that everyone should just live and not tell anyone that what they are doing or not doing is good or bad, right or wrong, healthy or unhealthy?

There are tons of things i want to say but seeing as I have gone on and on I think I will just stop. I really don't want to start a fight, just sharing what I think...


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## Darrin

alexischristina said:


> They don't '**** me off', they do make me feel uncomfortable, but I don't have any sort of emotional reaction and there's no 'thinking' needed, I know why. It's because sales flyers, girl scout cookies, etc. are pretty trivial things, religion on the other hand is something that takes up a good chunk of a lot of people's lives. Even if I don't have a religion does not mean my beliefs are not important to me, I've spent a great deal of time sorting out what I currently believe and will continue to spend a great deal of time and mental energy on my beliefs. For THAT reason I feel like it's an invasion when people are there to tell me that I'm wrong and they're right and I need to convert to their 'better' way of thinking. The last time I checked (most) people don't put quite as much energy into what sort of girl scout cookies they're going to buy.


That's my point, you let the "trivial" stuff go without a thought but religion bothers you because you "think" it's not trivial. If you're an atheist or non religious type it should be just as trivial as the other stuff. Only when you spend time thinking about religion does it become non trivial.


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## AgileOllie

I am a Christian, and I hope it's ok for me to post my opinion and experience.  I believe that people claiming to be Christians do more of a disservice to God than anything else. Every time my faith has wavered, it was because of something someone claiming to be a Christian has said or done. My point is that anytime you feel cornered or condemed by someone's faith, you can believe that is NOT the work of God. That is the work of people and pride. Jesus did not go around looking for people to believe in him. It was his presence and light that attracted others to him. As Christians, we are to do the same- live our lives as a testament to him, but to always acknowledge that we screwup and are FAR from perfect. As soon as we start shoving stuff down people's throats, we are bound to screw up, showing our human side, causing us to be mocked and not taken seriously. We have to live humbly, not perfectly.  That being said, I have two friends who are agnostic and atheist, respectively. My agnostic friend often asks me questions about my faith, in a friendly, conversational way. My atheist friend mocks everything spiritual and openly condemns Christianity as a fairytale, though she is very ok with her "ability" to talk to animals. Anyway, she shoves her beliefs on everyone else, but will "unfriend" you in a heartbeat after a single mention of faith. (I've been unfriended by her three times). So, yes, it goes both ways, but my point is, that anytime you feel threatened by God, please know, THAT IS NOT GOD. Fear is not of The Lord. Peace that surpasses all understanding is. At least now, with that information, you can blame the people and not God.


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## Darrin

AgileOllie said:


> I am a Christian, and I hope it's ok for me to post my opinion and experience.  I believe that people claiming to be Christians do more of a disservice to God than anything else. Every time my faith has wavered, it was because of something someone claiming to be a Christian has said or done. My point is that anytime you feel cornered or condemed by someone's faith, you can believe that is NOT the work of God. That is the work of people and pride. Jesus did not go around looking for people to believe in him. It was his presence and light that attracted others to him. As Christians, we are to do the same- live our lives as a testament to him, but to always acknowledge that we screwup and are FAR from perfect. As soon as we start shoving stuff down people's throats, we are bound to screw up, showing our human side, causing us to be mocked and not taken seriously. We have to live humbly, not perfectly.  That being said, I have two friends who are agnostic and atheist, respectively. My agnostic friend often asks me questions about my faith, in a friendly, conversational way. My atheist friend mocks everything spiritual and openly condemns Christianity as a fairytale, though she is very ok with her "ability" to talk to animals. Anyway, she shoves her beliefs on everyone else, but will "unfriend" you in a heartbeat after a single mention of faith. (I've been unfriended by her three times). So, yes, it goes both ways, but my point is, that anytime you feel threatened by God, please know, THAT IS NOT GOD. Fear is not of The Lord. Peace that surpasses all understanding is. At least now, with that information, you can blame the people and not God.


Those are the type of atheist that I consider to have turned atheism into it's own belief system, aka another religion.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

I honestly don't care what anyone believes and it doesn't affect me that much. You're having your wedding in a church - great I'll be there with bells on. You're busy celebrating the solstice tonight awesome can I bring beer.

I have ultra religious family who shun members of their own family for being gay or what have you. My little sect of the family is quite accepting, but don't go to church (mum and I are non Christian) over which there was much discussion and shame on my dad when I was young. Still went for family events, still do. Their churches are pretty non wackadoodle though and talk a lot about just being a good person which is nice. But they still insist on doing mean things to their family, which is their prerogative.
Otherwise I just ignore people. I don't answer the door unless your shirt says UPS and I don't answer the phone if I don't know the number. Want to post stuff about me going to hell on Facebook? Have at er I'll just delete it from my wall.
I used to get upset at people openly trying to convert me, now I just get up and walk away without saying a word. It works well, I find.
As far as my beliefs, I enjoy studying world religions and think it's funny how in the end they are all quite similar. I view religion in a very clinical manner. I don't believe that anyone is overseeing anything in the world. What happens when you die? Blackness and a release of energy which adds to global warming and then you feed the worms.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DancingArabian

I don't think comparing seat belts and helmets to religion is a good comparison. Seat belts save lives and so do helmets. These are facts, proven facts.

Whether or not I believe in a particular god may or may not help in those scenarios, depending on whom you ask. Even if not helped, it can be argued both ways. Praising Jesus is not assured to be of a help if I crack my head when falling off my horse. A helmet is though.

Faith strikes a very personal chord within many (most?) of us. The religion thing and what's on TV is also up to interpretation. (Picking something at random now) Is a TV show depecting a gay couple promoting gay couples or is it trying to depict something that goes on in reality? If you're (general you) against homosexuality (picking a random topic), does it being on TV promote or just depict reality?

I see prayer in movies and TV. I don't feel like there's some Christian agenda being pushed on me then. (Excluding of course the televised sermons which are of course sermons and that's kind of the point to them). I think it's just a depiction of what's going on. If I don't like it or it gets to be too preachy for me, I vote with my remote.

Same with books.

Christmas is tricky. If you look at the history of the holiday it's not purely a Christian holiday. Same with Easter. I generally don't feel religious pressure on the holidays but indefinitely do dislike certain aspects of it. I still cut down and put up my Christmas tree though. They're pretty and I like the smell of pine. It's more of a solstice tree to me though.

Would a Christian be accepting of say...a satanist coming up to them and trying to convert them or would they be offended? What about if the person were Hindu? Buddhist? From personal experience, they are not open minded and tolerant of it as they expect me to be of their speech. 

But frankly, I don't care what the religion is. If I'm not in a scenario where religions are being openly discussed, I do not want someone coming up to me to tell me how wonderful they think my life would be if only I did what their book says. I'm fine as I am and I don't like the presumption that some other random person who knows nothing about me makes that they know what is best for me. I would happily wear a pin broadcasting my disinterest! I shouldn't have to do that though. If I'm not in church asking for information, I shouldn't be hit up with it. Yes I know, freedom of speech and freedom of religion. What about freedom from religion and freedom to walk to your car in peace or freedom to not be disturbed at home?

It gets tiresome to be told you're going to hell for this or that. It's tiresome to deal with the judgement and opinion of a person. Doubly so when you don't believe in the things they're basing their opinion on. 

(Hope that came out well. I'm on mobile and tried to put real thought into this. No nasty tone or anger is meant in my post so I hope it doesn't come off that way).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin

DancingArabian said:


> Christmas is tricky. If you look at the history of the holiday it's not purely a Christian holiday. Same with Easter. I generally don't feel religious pressure on the holidays but indefinitely do dislike certain aspects of it. I still cut down and put up my Christmas tree though. They're pretty and I like the smell of pine. It's more of a solstice tree to me though.


Delving into the history of Christianity and you'll find most of the holidays started as pagan holidays. They were accepted into the Christian faith to make it more palatable for pagans to convert. I'm sure the other major religions have done the same but I haven't looked at their history that close.


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## alexischristina

Darrin said:


> That's my point, you let the "trivial" stuff go without a thought but religion bothers you because you "think" it's not trivial. If you're an atheist or non religious type it should be just as trivial as the other stuff. Only when you spend time thinking about religion does it become non trivial.


I've already explained why it isn't trivial. Regardless of whether or not I accept any religion doesn't mean my beliefs don't matter just as much as someone who DOES accept a religion.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

Darrin said:


> Delving into the history of Christianity and you'll find most of the holidays started as pagan holidays. They were accepted into the Christian faith to make it more palatable for pagans to convert. I'm sure the other major religions have done the same but I haven't looked at their history that close.


Yes this is correct.
It is actually very interesting (to me) to look at religions in regions which sprung up within the same time period and note the extremely similar nature of them and then the regional differences. It seems these books were not written in stone, but changed to suit the locals.
It would be interesting if those people spreading these religions now could see how those little differences have caused so much strife and war in the world and to ask them how that makes them feel. Of course spreading religion was initially meant to teach people to live ethically and actually to end tribal fights (love thy neighbor), but of course human beings are always mucking with things!!


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## DancingArabian

Darrin said:


> Delving into the history of Christianity and you'll find most of the holidays started as pagan holidays. They were accepted into the Christian faith to make it more palatable for pagans to convert. I'm sure the other major religions have done the same but I haven't looked at their history that close.


This is something that totally fascinates me. I love reading historical accounts of how religions changed so that the locals could still celebrate on the same days/times but now with the theme of the new religion.

Makes me wonder what the first bibles had in their texts. The oldest bibles I've seen we're I think a thousand years old or something and had a lot of what's still in there now - except each page was beautifully written in calligraphy and illuminated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HorseMom1025

I will say that my daughter (10) has been subjected to religious badgering and harassment. I am agnostic. My daughter is being allowed to explore and come to her own conclusion when it comes to spiritual beliefs. We live in the heart of the Bible Belt...in a small town dominated by one church.

On a regular basis, my daughter is asked, "what religion are you?" or "what church do you go to?" and "Are you a Christian?". She attempts to explain that we don't attend church and that she is still figuring out what she believes. She try's to change the subject, but like a dog with a bone, they won't let go.

She is constantly being invited to church and told that she NEEDS to attend (by both adults and kids). I have women and children who constantly issue invitations in an attempt to peer pressure my daughter into attending church. (They try the same tactics on me). No matter how politely we decline or tell them we are not interested it doesn't stop.

Tell me how this is not shoving religion down someone's throat? Explain to me how this isn't using children to try to convert everyone who resists?

You cannot avoid it here. Even at football games, they start with a lengthy prayer (usually around 3 minutes. Yes, I've timed it.). That includes messages specific to the dominate religion and forces everyone to stop and listen to the sermon or be seen as rude. It is pushed into our faces constantly. I do not share my beliefs with anyone except my immediate family (and sometime strangers on the Internet). I usually decline to discuss it, because most people who ask are planning to argue with me over my beliefs anyway. Rare is the individual who is genuinely curious and open. Most look to poke holes and belittle or threaten. ("I'm so sad we won't see your family in heaven.")

That's my personal experience with organized religion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CowboyBob

DancingArabian said:


> I don't think comparing seat belts and helmets to religion is a good comparison. Seat belts save lives and so do helmets. These are facts, proven facts.
> 
> Would a Christian be accepting of say...a satanist coming up to them and trying to convert them or would they be offended? What about if the person were Hindu? Buddhist? From personal experience, they are not open minded and tolerant of it as they expect me to be of their speech.
> 
> But frankly, I don't care what the religion is. If I'm not in a scenario where religions are being openly discussed, I do not want someone coming up to me to tell me how wonderful they think my life would be if only I did what their book says. I'm fine as I am and I don't like the presumption that some other random person who knows nothing about me makes that they know what is best for me.
> 
> (Hope that came out well. I'm on mobile and tried to put real thought into this. No nasty tone or anger is meant in my post so I hope it doesn't come off that way).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that; that came out very well.

I wasn't comparing seat belts and helmets to religion, i was using them as an example of other areas in life where people share with others their feelings/believes without all this drama. 

As for the satanist or other religions talking to me, I have never had a satanist talk to me, however I have had Mormons and JW come to my house and yes the random stranger at the door comes with some frustration, but I'm not rude to them I give them as much time as I have to hear them out even though I know I do not agree with what they are doing or saying. 

"I don't care what the religion is. If I'm not in a scenario where religions are being openly discussed, I do not want someone coming up to me to tell me how wonderful they think my life would be if only I did what their book says." 
I can understand and respect that. 

"I'm fine as I am and I don't like the presumption that some other *random person **who knows nothing about me* makes that they know what is best for me."
I can understand that as well, I am not a fan of the stranger or acquaintance cold witnessing. I don't do it and I think it is a mistake for "believers" to do it.

I think you make some great points and I wish that some believers would take the time to read your thoughts and understand them. 

Now I also hope that "nonbelievers" understand that not all "religious" people are the same. Its sad to me that the ones that IMO are doing it wrong make a really bad name for the rest of us. And for "nonbelievers" to judge all "believers" by the actions of a few is not really a fair judgement. There is another thread going about horse breeds and everyone is in agreement that to judge a hole breed by a few examples of that breed is not a fair method of judging a breed. Same goes for judging people. Some of you are taking the (what I would call) the worst examples in believers to judge all believers.

I don't like the side walk preachers either maybe for a different reason mostly because of how "nonbelievers" view other "believers" and lump us all into that stereotype. 

I use the words "nonbeliever" and "believer" very loosely, just to group people into two groups is not the best, I do it to try to keep this "shorter"


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## HorseMom1025

CowboyBob, I do want to assure you that I know not everyone is this way. I have met some deeply spiritual individuals who are strong in their faith and live their beliefs without needing to yell it to everyone around them. I admire and respect those individuals. 

Live what you believe. Lead by example. My Father taught me that the only universal law is the golden rule (slightly modified). "Do unto others and they would want done unto them". In other words don't do what you would want done, but try to understand the other person well enough to do what is best for them. Do not presume your way is the "right" way, only way or even preferred way.

I sometimes imagine that everyone who runs around trying to convert others does it because they believe in safety in numbers. They hope that if they find out they are wrong, they can look at whichever supreme being and say, "I wasn't the only one, look at everyone else who did it too!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BarrelBunny

GamingGrrl said:


> A few months back some Mormons biked up my 1/4 mile gravel drive way and asked if my parents were home. I told them it was posted no trespassing (we've got 4 signs In a 20 foot stretch a fence) and they lied and said they hadn't seen them. I told them that lying is a sin. They pedaled back like they were in the Tour De France.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well, being LDS (or a Mormon, same thing), I feel obligated to explain. When a baptized (Male) Mormon turns 18, he is urged to go on a mission, although women can also serve, as well as older people of either gender. Anyway, if he chooses to go, he is assigned a location, which could be _anywhere_ on this planet, and he will be there for the next 2 years of his life. Part of his job as a missionary is to go door-to-door. So, really, it is not their fault; they were doing what they were supposed to be doing. However, instead of lying, they _should_ have explained their purpose. I'm sorry they lied to you, it is not permitted. 

On another note, I agree that nobody can make you believe anything. That is up to you and only you. It does get rather annoying when people are constantly handing you flyers and trying to convert you, but at the same time, there is a recycle bin and, again, you are not converted until you truly believe whatever it is that they are dumping on you. In the end, I think it's more of a "turn the other cheek" type of thing. Believe what you want, and know that we are lucky to have that freedom.


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## waresbear

I am not an Atheist, I am from "The Church of I Don't Know & Neither Do you". ^^^^^We are on this Earth such a short time, I think ^^^^^We (sorry about the silly ^^^^^We thing, iPod corrects it to that, can't fix it) should just live our lives, try to do the right things, not hurt others, have respect for other living creatures and enjoy your time here, not spend it worshipping gods & whatnot. If there is a God & he don't like my philosophy, screw it, let me be dead forever then, I am not a bad person, their loss.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May

I am a believer, I just find that ^ funny. 

Like I said, I am a believer, but I was raised an atheist. It has been my experience that "atheism" is treated like a religion by many of its "followers". So, do I resent anyone trying to push their religion on me, be it of a higher power or "no religion". Yes, I do. If anyone actually believes there are not environments where "believers" are frowned upon, they haven't been around, much. I'd rather have some random Johova witness come to my door than fear being judged on the basis of my personal religious beliefs. 

The way I have always handled unwanted religious "conversation" is to tell the individual that the freedom of religion in what makes this country great as well as allows every individual to enjoy their own individual beliefs - in peace.


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## IRaceBarrels

You know what find most annoying about being athiest? Tack shopping. I'll find an awesome saddle or head stall and there are crosses all over it. I've even thought of getting the American Athiest symbol stamped into leather and hang it off my saddle like people do with crosses. Honestly I don't have much issue with religious people pushing there faith on me. I get the Mormons and JHs at my door but they're nice people and leave when I tell them I'm an athiest. My mom is a minister and thinks I'm being lead by Satan. But whatever. 
it is mostly at group riding practices that I feel most awkward. People are praying and talking about God. Yeah I'm not going to ask God to protect my horse and me. I've got a helmet and vets for that. Or they ask God to give them a good time and I can't help but laughing. Why would an all powerful got care about your run?


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## Muppetgirl

This also bugs me.....I was at a family reunion a while back and they prayed about EVERYTHING and I just started eating because they were thanking Jesus for every little ridiculous thing and also praying for themselves......how about making prayer meaningful and praying for people who really need prayers??


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## Missy May

Oooops, didn't add picture. 









edit: like I said above, I am a believer. I just see the humor in this b/c there are "those".


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## AgileOllie

Muppetgirl said:


> This also bugs me.....I was at a family reunion a while back and they prayed about EVERYTHING and I just started eating because they were thanking Jesus for every little ridiculous thing and also praying for themselves......how about making prayer meaningful and praying for people who really need prayers??
> 
> View attachment 236545


This has been one of the hardest things for me to grasp, faith wise. The thing that keeps coming back to me is that we should be grateful in ALL things, even the smallest things, and we should serve God and those like the precious baby pictured. Life is not fair and it really, really sucks for many people. God wants us to use our blessings to help people like that, to spread his word through our actions, but so few people do. That is what tithing is supposed to be for. That child suffers, not because of God, but because of the selfishness of people. Yes, God could swoop down and save that baby, but what would we gain by having everything handed to us? We have not entered heaven yet; this world is riddled with evil and selfishness. WE are supposed to be his hands, feet, eyes and ears on earth. That child suffers because of US and our unwillingness to give up our comforts, roll up our sleeves, and do it. How many of us here have gone to a village like this and actually helped? I know I haven't. I refuse to blame God for this, until I get my own hands dirty and do as he commissioned us in the Bible.


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## Muppetgirl

AgileOllie said:


> This has been one of the hardest things for me to grasp, faith wise. The thing that keeps coming back to me is that we should be grateful in ALL things, even the smallest things, and we should serve God and those like the precious baby pictured. Life is not fair and it really, really sucks for many people. God wants us to use our blessings to help people like that, to spread his word through our actions, but so few people do. That is what tithing is supposed to be for. That child suffers, not because of God, but because of the selfishness of people. Yes, God could swoop down and save that baby, but what would we gain by having everything handed to us? We have not entered heaven yet; this world is riddled with evil and selfishness. WE are supposed to be his hands, feet, eyes and ears on earth. That child suffers because of US and our unwillingness to give up our comforts, roll up our sleeves, and do it. How many of us here have gone to a village like this and actually helped? I know I haven't. I refuse to blame God for this, until I get my own hands dirty and do as he commissioned us in the Bible.


I'm a non-believer, yet I don't blame anyone for the struggles of the human race. I'm a good steward of the earth (as it is stated to be in the bible) yet a hard core baptist in-law of mine recycles nothing (yet complains about the amount of 'trash' they have) and says 'it doesn't matter, the worlds going to end'........:shock: How does that make sense? I personally don't believe the world will end and want to treat the earth that my children will inherit with respect.........

I don't blame god for anything.....to me it's like blaming my imaginary friend for stealing a cookie:wink:


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## Saddlebag

As the world gets crazier it seems to affect the religious much more than in my parent's time. People seemed more respectful of another's point of view, religion or otherwise. The evangelical lady caught up with me today, apparently having called 3 times. She just had to tell me how god looked after me today. I dunno, I think I had a lot to do with it. I am being bombarded.


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## GamingGrrl

BarrelBunny said:


> Well, being LDS (or a Mormon, same thing), I feel obligated to explain. When a baptized (Male) Mormon turns 18, he is urged to go on a mission, although women can also serve, as well as older people of either gender. Anyway, if he chooses to go, he is assigned a location, which could be _anywhere_ on this planet, and he will be there for the next 2 years of his life. Part of his job as a missionary is to go door-to-door. So, really, it is not their fault; they were doing what they were supposed to be doing. However, instead of lying, they _should_ have explained their purpose. I'm sorry they lied to you, it is not permitted.
> 
> On another note, I agree that nobody can make you believe anything. That is up to you and only you. It does get rather annoying when people are constantly handing you flyers and trying to convert you, but at the same time, there is a recycle bin and, again, you are not converted until you truly believe whatever it is that they are dumping on you. In the end, I think it's more of a "turn the other cheek" type of thing. Believe what you want, and know that we are lucky to have that freedom.


No no no no no. They didn't do what they were supposed to be doing. What they were SUPPOSED to do was to obey the signs posted and not break the law and trespass up onto my property. In my area, they were lucky it was just me and not someone who shoots first and asks questions later. I was out feeding my horses and felt VERY uncomfortable that two men were suddenly up my 1/4 mile driveway and standing by my paddock when i turned around. I worried for my safety, because after all we live in a rape culture and I'm a young woman who was home alone. Only when they began the "where's your parents" thing did I realize they were Mormons. 

I'm not gonna sit by and excuse them breaking the law because of something their church sent them to do.
Not okay. Not one bit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fort fireman

Just my opinion here. I personally would rather try to live my life like there is a god and find out there isn't , than live my life like there is no god and find out there is. I'm am faaaar from a highly involved Christian and I do not like being preached to. I guess you could call me a back row baptist( except im not baptist) I think everyone needs to find their own path to god. It's ok to express views if asked but I will not force my views on someone and I expect the same respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

Fort fireman said:


> Just my opinion here. I personally would rather try to live my life like there is a god and find out there isn't , than live my life like there is no god and find out there is. I'm am faaaar from a highly involved Christian and I do not like being preached to. I guess you could call me a back row baptist( except im not baptist) I think everyone needs to find their own path to god. It's ok to express views if asked but I will not force my views on someone and I expect the same respect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But thats the thing, many non believers are good people who behave in fairly moral ways. I try to do good, I think Im a good steward. I dont lie, cheat, steal, murder or go out of my way to harm others.

All major religions come down to how to be a better human being and member of society. Some of us dont need the threat of eternal damnation to try to do right and be a decent human being.


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## waresbear

If they want to waste their time on earth damning me and thinking about what's going to happen to them after they are no longer here, gee it really sucks to be them!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag

One of the questions I have is if heaven is such a wonderful place, why haven't all the Christians committed suicide? If it is so wonderful how can one condemn abortion? What happens with the revelation? Will families be split up because some one didn't quite live up to expectations? Imagine driving on a freeway at 100mph and the driver suddenly disappears-gone to be with god. I'd be curious as to how many Christians have read the bible cover to cover? I wonder how they will justify the horror stories to do with what god commanded. Disobedient children are to be sacrificed to god, the throats of gluttons (obese) are to be slit. If a woman disobeys her husband she's to be taken to the edge of town and stoned to death. How many Christians have done that or have they disobeyed the bible?


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## Missy May

I would say that many, if not most, non-believers believe in evolution. How many of them are experts in that subject such that they can expand and explain any question from a position of authority? If not published, then fully versed in all available documentation, including works of old? I don't think that is a requirement to believe or not believe that particular theory - as one is free to believe in what they like in US. Same, same.


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## alexischristina

BarrelBunny said:


> Well, being LDS (or a Mormon, same thing), I feel obligated to explain. When a baptized (Male) Mormon turns 18, he is urged to go on a mission, although women can also serve, as well as older people of either gender. Anyway, if he chooses to go, he is assigned a location, which could be _anywhere_ on this planet, and he will be there for the next 2 years of his life. Part of his job as a missionary is to go door-to-door. So, really, it is not their fault; they were doing what they were supposed to be doing. However, instead of lying, they _should_ have explained their purpose. I'm sorry they lied to you, it is not permitted.


Here's the thing- people have the right to say they don't want to hear from religious folk, and putting up 'no trespassing' signs is a very good way to make it known that they aren't interested in having their time taken up, their privacy invaded, etc. so while they were 'supposed' to be going door to door, they still definitely have to live by the same rules as everyone else and respect another persons' rights. That can't really be defended, in my opinion.


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## Muppetgirl

alexischristina said:


> Here's the thing- people have the right to say they don't want to hear from religious folk, and putting up 'no trespassing' signs is a very good way to make it known that they aren't interested in having their time taken up, their privacy invaded, etc. so while they were 'supposed' to be going door to door, they still definitely have to live by the same rules as everyone else and respect another persons' rights. That can't really be defended, in my opinion.


Yes, it does say in the bible that man must live by the laws of his land.

Also, every sin is created equal - so trespassing and murdering are on the same par:shock:


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## Muppetgirl

Saddlebag said:


> One of the questions I have is if heaven is such a wonderful place, why haven't all the Christians committed suicide? If it is so wonderful how can one condemn abortion? What happens with the revelation? Will families be split up because some one didn't quite live up to expectations? Imagine driving on a freeway at 100mph and the driver suddenly disappears-gone to be with god. I'd be curious as to how many Christians have read the bible cover to cover? I wonder how they will justify the horror stories to do with what god commanded. Disobedient children are to be sacrificed to god, the throats of gluttons (obese) are to be slit. If a woman disobeys her husband she's to be taken to the edge of town and stoned to death. How many Christians have done that or have they disobeyed the bible?


Oh, all the questions I have asked. You see, the bible was put together long after Christ was gone. It was also put together by a group of Anglo-Saxon males who sifted through piles and piles of scrolls to create just what fitted their purpose at the time. Many of the writings in the bible can be explained away because of the time in which it was written.

Suicide - considered a sin amongst Catholics - you will go to hell apparently.
Abortion - again another sin, yet if you have a baby outside of marriage he will forever be called a ******* - so as a single female who's pregnant your damned (according to Dr Laura - she makes my skin prickle)

I once asked a prominent baptist pastor (and I'm not afraid to ask and debate with someone of a religion) do animals go to heaven? His reply 'no, they don't have a soul so they don't go to heaven' my response - ' the. How does Jesus come flying out if heaven on a white horse in Revelation?'........bahahaha! He didn't quite know what to say....


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## xlionesss

Anyone who dares to say my animals have no soul


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## Fourteen

Muppetgirl said:


> Oh, all the questions I have asked. You see, *the bible was put together long after Christ was gone. It was also put together by a group of Anglo-Saxon males who sifted through piles and piles of scrolls to create just what fitted their purpose at the time. Many of the writings in the bible can be explained away because of the time in which it was written.*
> 
> Suicide - considered a sin amongst Catholics - you will go to hell apparently.
> Abortion - again another sin, yet if you have a baby outside of marriage he will forever be called a ******* - so as a single female who's pregnant your damned (according to Dr Laura - she makes my skin prickle)
> 
> I once asked a prominent baptist pastor (and I'm not afraid to ask and debate with someone of a religion) do animals go to heaven? His reply 'no, they don't have a soul so they don't go to heaven' my response - ' the. How does Jesus come flying out if heaven on a white horse in Revelation?'........bahahaha! He didn't quite know what to say....


I feel the need to correct the above statement in bold.

The bible was not put together by a group of Anglo-Saxon men long after Christ. The Old Testament was written long before Christ, and the New Testament was written in the 60 or so years following Christ's death, by men who were of Middle Eastern descent (Jewish), and many of whom knew Jesus personally. 

_Catholic Theology_ was written by a group of Anglo-Saxon men. What escapes most people's recognition is that the Catholic Church is not the definition of Christianity, nor is the Church doctrine a valid replacement for Scripture. In fact, Catholic Theology and Doctrine very often completely contradicts what the Bible clearly states.


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## Muppetgirl

alexischristina said:


> Here's the thing- people have the right to say they don't want to hear from religious folk, and putting up 'no trespassing' signs is a very good way to make it known that they aren't interested in having their time taken up, their privacy invaded, etc. so while they were 'supposed' to be going door to door, they still definitely have to live by the same rules as everyone else and respect another persons' rights. That can't really be defended, in my opinion.


Hang on......Mormons (Latter Day Saints) follow a different doctrine than your everyday baptist/Lutheran/Protestant etc.........

It is part of their faith to spread the word, therefore door knocking.

Infact, three of the books they follow I haven't even seen, so can't speak to it, but they follow the King James Bible which is different from your standard Bible because of how it's been translated......hmmm I might have to ask about this.

Also, Jehovah's Witness are not the same as LDS and have a few different ideas and beliefs, yet spreading the word is part of their beliefs.


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## DancingArabian

^^^^^
But they should still respect no trespassing and no soliciting signage 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Muppetgirl

Fourteen said:


> I feel the need to correct the above statement in bold.
> 
> The bible was not put together by a group of Anglo-Saxon men long after Christ. The Old Testament was written long before Christ, and the New Testament was written in the 60 or so years following Christ's death, by men who were of Middle Eastern descent (Jewish), and many of whom knew Jesus personally.
> 
> _Catholic Theology_ was written by a group of Anglo-Saxon men. What escapes most people's recognition is that the Catholic Church is not the definition of Christianity, nor is the Church doctrine a valid replacement for Scripture. In fact, Catholic Theology and Doctrine very often completely contradicts what the Bible clearly states.


Yes it was - the OLD testament was written before Christ and was in bits and pieces all over creation and was compiled Many many many years after the death of Christ, it was in no way available for the masses to view. Also what we have today as the bible is only a snippet of all that was written before and after the time of Christ. Catholics have their own set of rules and interpretations, I am speaking of Protestant based branches of faiths. Catholicism and Protestant faiths have branched of from ONE book - the Bible. Any little interpretations they've made in context to suit their desires has nothing to do when the bible was compiled or written.


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## Muppetgirl

DancingArabian said:


> ^^^^^
> But they should still respect no trespassing and no soliciting signage
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly - as I said before, the bible states that man should obey the laws of his land. However not being familiar to the books the LDS and JWs follow they may have a different take on this


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## Fourteen

Muppetgirl said:


> Yes it was - the OLD testament was written before Christ and was in bits and pieces all over creation and was compiled Many many many years after the death of Christ, it was in no way available for the masses to view. Also what we have today as the bible is only a snippet of all that was written before and after the time of Christ. Catholics have their own set of rules and interpretations, I am speaking of Protestant based branches of faiths. Catholicism and Protestant faiths have branched of from ONE book - the Bible. Any little interpretations they've made in context to suit their desires has nothing to do when the bible was compiled or written.


Not to be argumentative, but isn't that what I just said...that the Old Testament was written before Christ?:? Also, the canon of the Old Testament was established before Christ. Bible Canon refers to the collective group of writings that were (and continue to be) widely accepted to be authentic and not Apocryphal.

I agree with you that interpretations made to suit agendas have nothing to do with the Bible...again, that was the point of my posting. And the Protestant branches of faith may have left Catholicism, but they retained much of the same beliefs, many not Bible-based. For example, did you know that the Cross was a pagan (non-biblical) symbol long before Christ was on the earth? Did you also know that the belief in hellfire and immortality of the soul also were pagan (non-biblical) beliefs that were assimilated into the "Christian" belief system developed by Catholics and Protestants?


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## Muppetgirl

Fourteen said:


> Not to be argumentative, but isn't that what I just said...that the Old Testament was written before Christ?:? Also, the canon of the Old Testament was established before Christ. Bible Canon refers to the collective group of writings that were (and continue to be) widely accepted to be authentic and not Apocryphal.
> 
> I agree with you that interpretations made to suit agendas have nothing to do with the Bible...again, that was the point of my posting. And the Protestant branches of faith may have left Catholicism, but they retained much of the same beliefs, many not Bible-based. For example, did you know that the Cross was a pagan (non-biblical) symbol long before Christ was on the earth? Did you also know that the belief in hellfire and immortality of the soul also were pagan (non-biblical) beliefs that were assimilated into the "Christian" belief system developed by Catholics and Protestants?


Absolutely I am aware of that - hence my non-belief. Apparently Easter eggs are the devils testicles too - according to a pamphlet handed out to me about a decade ago:shock:


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## Speed Racer

The Old Testament wasn't compiled into one book, it was originally word of mouth stories that eventually got written onto scrolls which only the temple priests had access to. So the masses had nothing but what the priests said and their own stories to go on, not an actual book.

The Old and New Testaments weren't put into any kind of recognizable book form for the masses until the 1600s, and those that did were under penalty of death if caught selling or giving away copies. Even then, the stories that made it into today's Bible were determined upon by priests and monks since the writings had _always_ been the province of the religious orders.

So, the originals were word of mouth stories that were changed and embellished to suit the needs, moods and opinions of the story tellers. The first texts made from the stories were written in Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew, which means whoever did the translating also did it with their own interpretations in mind. Even when the texts were translated to English, there were fierce debates about how a particular word or phrase should be translated, as depending on the original language in which they were written they could mean different things. 

Those translations and their meanings are still hotly debated today, which is why there are currently *233* different English versions of the Bible.


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## Fourteen

Since the point of this thread isn't to debate the authenticity of the Bible, I will refrain from making any further statements in this regard, out of respect for the OP. However I will say that there is much archaeological and historical proof that supports the Bible's authenticity, for those with an open mind and who are willing to consider all facts available. For those who have already decided to ignore those facts, nothing anyone else says will change that.


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## Missy May

xlionesss said:


> Anyone who dares to say my animals have no soul


Well, it wasn't people gathered around in the manger. When people insinuate or flat out state this type of non-sense, I just chalk it off to ignorance and arrogance. I also chalk(ed) off the all powerful and knowing "scientist" that treat(ed) other animals like globs of nothing but motor response and "instinct" when all one has to do is open their eyes to determine that cannot be true. Science also decided humans were so special (no telling what "science" that was based on) that they even evolved differently from all other species. It seems faith (believing in that which you cannot see and prove) is only a stones throw from this sort of "science"....which decides what is true because no attempt is made to prove the obvious. It is finally changing, but that "slow" on the uptake isn't what I would associate with intelligence.


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## Saskia

I haven't read all the pages but I'm going to comment anyway, and it's going to be long and boring but I'm bored and have nothing else to do. 

I'm not quite an atheist, I believe in something I just don't know what. I guess I border somewhere between agnostic and vaguely something else. 

I grew up never really experiencing Christianity, my family is not Christian, I was excused from all bible classes back then (now they're not allowed in public schools) and never had been to church. Later, I went to university and me and this girl became very close friends, she's still one of my best friends. And she is Christian, and the proper kind, church at least once a week, bible study groups, volunteering and making choices based on her religion. I went to church with her to find out more, and met a lot of churchy people. 

So I started to realise what I believed was conversion was something a bit different. These people believed, without a doubt really, in their god and in heaven and hell. They also believed, without a doubt, that people who did not repent would go to hell, and they were good people and for them, thinking that their classmates, their friends, or even strangers were going to spend an eternity in hell was pretty awful. I imagine it a bit like looking at someone and seeing that they're about to be hit by a car they can't see yet, I'd try to save them. So looking at it from that perspective I can see that if you're a good person, and you believe, it's hard not to try and convert people. 

However, I also found that a lot of these people lived in a rather insular subculture. All their family was religious, their friends were religious, they met new people through church. They were raised in an environment where religion was the norm. I found that this meant that a lot of them couldn't really relate too well to other people. Some could, but others not so much. So without understanding and accepting non-religious people, their efforts came across forceful, blunt and just would never work. 

I don't like how people try to convert, I hate it when they won't back off when I say no. But I think I understand it more now. 

However, perhaps we do the same to them. Theology (as opposed to religion) is not taught in public schools here and that is, in my opinion, certainly the way it should be. I have no problem children being taught about religion, I certainly was, but it must be from an outside perspective, and it must cover most or all major religions, religion, among other things, is to be taught at home. And I religion super interesting, I took a few classes at university. But science is taught in every school. I believe in science, perhaps I don't have the faith in it like others do, but I believe all should be taught it. 

Yet to a conservative religious person, we're preaching against their beliefs. Because for some people the two have to be mutually exclusive. A conservative Christian and an atheist scientist come together and none will give. Those with faith only in what can be experienced and predicted and repeated are just are blinded as those who have faith in a god. Yet to both people so many things are unknowable, as is the nature of the world. 

So to me, I guess I try to listen. I always ask questions, probably too many because I think that thinking is the best thing to do. I think if more people learned about whatever they don't know, and really thought about it then there would be less conflict, and not nearly as much attempted conversion. Asking questions doesn't just make me think, it makes the person think as well. I think I taught my religious friends a lot by asking them about their religion in ways they hadn't been asked before.


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## Saddlebag

The writings of the bible were borrowed from over 5500 transcripts. Let's suppose there are 5 or 6 smucks who've been given this job of editing. The hours are long, the candlelight it hard on the eyes and soon they decided to liven the stories up a little, to break the monotony and who's going to know? So now there's a revised and edited version. Wait a minute, still too big, it would take a donkey to carry a tome like that. More editing. Well now, these 6 schmucks are the only ones who can read this so it must be translated into another language so others can read it. And on it went. Translation after translation and more and more editing. The most drastic editing came about with the invention of the press. Then King James ordered a new revised version that could be printed. Is there anything of the original transcripts in the present day bible?


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## Faceman

Saddlebag said:


> The writings of the bible were borrowed from over 5500 transcripts. Let's suppose there are 5 or 6 smucks who've been given this job of editing. The hours are long, the candlelight it hard on the eyes and soon they decided to liven the stories up a little, to break the monotony and who's going to know? So now there's a revised and edited version. Wait a minute, still too big, it would take a donkey to carry a tome like that. More editing. Well now, these 6 schmucks are the only ones who can read this so it must be translated into another language so others can read it. And on it went. Translation after translation and more and more editing. The most drastic editing came about with the invention of the press. Then King James ordered a new revised version that could be printed. Is there anything of the original transcripts in the present day bible?


Are you talking about the bible, or Obamacare. Hard to tell...:rofl:


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## Speed Racer

Fourteen said:


> I will say that there is much archaeological and historical proof that supports the Bible's authenticity, for those with an open mind and who are willing to consider all facts available. For those who have already decided to ignore those facts, nothing anyone else says will change that.


You're apparently going under the assumption that some of us who know how the modern Bible was compiled and created are atheists. One should never make such presumptions when one doesn't have all the facts. :wink: 

Archeological digs and historical fact checking have proven that some of the places existed and things that occurred actually happened. That still doesn't prove a particular natural disaster was the wrath of God, even though the Bible may state it as such. The Bible is an historical volume that's true, but it _doesn't_ mean it's the unadulterated Word of God.

The Bible is full of sexual deviance, murder, and intrigue. Pretty racy stuff for a holy book, don't you think? Some of the people involved in a lot of the worst stuff were never punished for their sins, either. King David was a liar, adulterer and murderer, yet he was one of God's champions according to the Bible, and with his adulterous mistress sired Israel's greatest King, Solomon.

Let's also not forget Lot's two daughters who decided to get their father drunk and have sex with him, because they wanted children. They both gave birth to sons who became the founders of two great peoples. Doesn't sound much like punishment from on High for the grievous crime of incest, does it? 

Being able to see the discrepancies in the Bible and knowing that it wasn't compiled purely from the mind of God doesn't mean one is necessarily an atheist. I am, however, every religious denomination's worst nightmare; a _thinking_ Christian who can make up her own mind and see that the Bible has been heavily influenced by the hand of man since its inception.

As far as other people being atheists, that's their decision. I believe they're entitled to their peace and to be left alone by religious zealots trying to 'save' them. Any _true_ Christian (or non-Christian) knows we can save only one person, and that's ourselves. Haranguing someone because they don't believe is NOT the way to make someone curious about getting to know God.


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## Darrin

Have to ask on this thread if this makes any sense. Heard on the news last night that atheist are insisting the military start recruiting atheist chaplains for them.


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## Speed Racer

Not sure what an atheist chaplain would preach. Since there is no God according to them, what kind of doctrine would they expect to follow?


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## Muppetgirl

Speed Racer said:


> Not sure what an atheist chaplain would preach. Since there is no God according to them, what kind of doctrine would they expect to follow?


 Duh.....they'd follow the doctrine of aetheism:rofl:


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## Speed Racer

Hmmm, so maybe they'd play poker, drink beer, and then chant, 'Thank ME it's Sunday!'


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## DancingArabian

Speed Racer said:


> Not sure what an atheist chaplain would preach. Since there is no God according to them, what kind of doctrine would they expect to follow?


Humanism.
The man trying to be endorsed as a chaplain is endorsed by the Humanist Society. The Humanist Society is not on the list of approved organizations to receive endorsement to be chaplain and this the push.

It's about people who would like to receive support from like minded individuals. From someone who shares their outlook on life and would have a similar approach to things.

It's like if you're a dressage rider and have a problem, are you going to another dressage rider or someone who is a bull rider? Or a western pleasure rider? No, you want a dressage rider.

If I have a crisis and wanted support, I would not want words of god as help or an anecdote from the bible. That would ring hollow to me since I do not find strength in those things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

I see the comparisons DA, but why the push to be recognized as actual chaplains? Do those endorsed by the Humanist Society call themselves chaplains?


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## Missy May

Darrin said:


> Have to ask on this thread if this makes any sense. Heard on the news last night that atheist are insisting the military start recruiting atheist chaplains for them.


Yes, it makes sense to me. If the alternative to going to "chapel" is work, there should be "equal treatment". If not for that, I think someone finding or being inspired to find/remember their moral compass doesn't require one to be religious.


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## jaydee

I know that many religious people are hypocritical but honestly I've never been confronted by anyone that was rude in their proselytizing or said anything that would offend me or make me even mildly annoyed
Maybe the UK is just lacking in religious fervor
We used to get Jehovahs Witnesses at least once a month, I tell them I'm not interested and they go away with no argument - same as they do here
The Mormon missionaries the same - always very polite, respectful and pleasant young people.
Perhaps I'm just lucky but IMO there are plenty of people out there wanting to rudely force their beliefs and opinions on other people that has nothing to do with religion that are way more offensive.


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## Missy May

Having a "do not knock" list akin to "do not call" list would be fine by me. That would put the onus on a solicitor to determine if your residence accepts door to door solicitations. 

But, as far as religion in general goes, there are more religions than just Christianity/Judaism. In the big picture, states (governments) that do not allow or control religious activity, or that are governed by religious law are the "alternative" to freedom of religion. That freedom, of course, is accompanied by the right to _criticize or promote _religion.


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## bsms

Saddlebag said:


> The writings of the bible were borrowed from over 5500 transcripts. Let's suppose there are 5 or 6 smucks who've been given this job of editing. The hours are long, the candlelight it hard on the eyes and soon they decided to liven the stories up a little, to break the monotony and who's going to know? So now there's a revised and edited version. Wait a minute, still too big, it would take a donkey to carry a tome like that. More editing. Well now, these 6 schmucks are the only ones who can read this so it must be translated into another language so others can read it. And on it went. Translation after translation and more and more editing. The most drastic editing came about with the invention of the press. Then King James ordered a new revised version that could be printed. Is there anything of the original transcripts in the present day bible?


" _New Testament specialist Daniel Wallace notes that although there are about 300,000 individual variations of the text of the New Testament, this number is very misleading. Most of the differences are completely inconsequential--spelling errors, inverted phrases and the like. A side by side comparison between the two main text families (the Majority Text and the modern critical text) shows agreement a full 98% of the time. Of the remaining differences, virtually all yield to vigorous textual criticism. This means that our New Testament is 99.5% textually pure. In the entire text of 20,000 lines, only 40 lines are in doubt (about 400 words), and none affects any significant doctrine._"​Stand to Reason | Is the New Testament Text Reliable?

Also:

Are the Biblical Documents Reliable?" _Most of the biblical manuscripts found at Qumran belong to the MT tradition or family. This is especially true of the Pentateuch and some of the Prophets. The well-preserved Isaiah scroll from Cave 1 illustrates the tender care with which these sacred texts were copied. Since about 1700 years separated Isaiah in the MT from its original source, textual critics assumed that centuries of copying and recopying this book must have introduced scribal errors into the document that obscured the original message of the author._

_The Isaiah scrolls found at Qumran closed that gap to within 500 years of the original manuscript. Interestingly, when scholars compared the MT of Isaiah to the Isaiah scroll of Qumran, the correspondence was astounding. The texts from Qumran proved to be word-for-word identical to our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The 5 percent of variation consisted primarily of obvious slips of the pen and spelling alterations (Archer, 1974, p. 25). Further, there were no major doctrinal differences between the accepted and Qumran texts (see Table 1 below). This forcibly demonstrated the accuracy with which scribes copied sacred texts, and bolstered our confidence in the Bible’s textual integrity (see Yamauchi, 1972, p. 130)._"​Apologetics Press - The Dead Sea Scrolls and Biblical Integrity

Also, translations are translations. In English, the first full translation of the Bible was Wycliffe's, based on the Latin translation done around 400 AD. The next was Tyndale's, about 100 years prior to the KJV and based on the original languages. Interestingly enough (to me) is that Tyndale's translation (1526) is very close to modern English, except for spelling:_Nicodemus said unto him: how can a man be born, when he is old? can he enter into his mother's body and be born again? Iesus answered: verily, verily I say unto thee: except that a man be born of water, and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh, is flesh. And that which is born of the spirit, is spirit. Marvel not that I said to thee, ye must be born a new. The wind bloweth where he listeth, and thou hearest his sound: but canst not tell whence he cometh and whither he goeth. So is every man that is born of the spirit. And Nicodemus answered and said unto him: how can these things be? Iesus answered and said unto him: Art thou a master in Israhell, and knowest not these things? Verily verily, I say unto thee, we speak that we know, and testify that we have seen: And ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things and ye have not believe: How should ye believe if I shall tell you of heavenly things?

And no man ascendeth up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, that is to say, the son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lift up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lift up, that none which believeth in him perish: but have eternal life.

God so loved the world, that he gave his only son for the intent, that none that believe in him, should perish: But should have everlasting life. For God sent not his son into the world, to condemn the world: But that the world through him, might be saved. He that believeth on him shall not be condemned. But he that believeth not, is condemned all ready, because he believeth not in the name of the only son of God.
_​the newe testiment. John Chapter 3:1-36.

The KJV was deliberately translated into more ornate language, since King James believed "No bishop, No king" - after all, if the church was not top-down, why should the rest of society be? People who chose their own pastors might want to chose their own king...:shock: :wink:

From the English Standard Bible website:"_The ESV is based on the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible as found in Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (2nd ed., 1983), and on the Greek text in the 1993 editions of the Greek New Testament (4th corrected ed.), published by the United Bible Societies (UBS), and Novum Testamentum Graece (27th ed.), edited by Nestle and Aland._

_ The currently renewed respect among Old Testament scholars for the Masoretic text is reflected in the ESV’s attempt, wherever possible, to translate difficult Hebrew passages as they stand in the Masoretic text rather than resorting to emendations or to finding an alternative reading in the ancient versions._

_ In exceptional, difficult cases, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Septuagint, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Syriac Pe****ta, the Latin Vulgate, and other sources were consulted to shed possible light on the text, or, if necessary, to support a divergence from the Masoretic text. Similarly, in a few difficult cases in the New Testament, the ESV has followed a Greek text different from the text given preference in the UBS/Nestle-Aland 27th edition._"​About the ESV Translation « ESV Bible


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## DancingArabian

Speed Racer said:


> I see the comparisons DA, but why the push to be recognized as actual chaplains? Do those endorsed by the Humanist Society call themselves chaplains?


Chaplains are the ones you seek out for counseling and advice in addition to moral support. Right now, seeking the services of a chaplain have to either choose a chaplain endorsed by a religion or go without.

The endorsement is something the military requires of chaplains. Since this guy is the first I assume he would still be a chaplain but who knows. I don't know if chaplains exist outside the military but they probably have roles specific to their church, and titles to go with it. You cannot be a chaplain without an endorsement, the military has a list of specific organizations whose endorsement they recognize and the humanist society is not on there. He is pushing for the society to be added to the list so his endorsement can be recognized and thus be allowed to be a chaplain. He can't just set up a booth and accept walk ins, he's trying to get this as his iob.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin

DancingArabian said:


> Humanism.
> The man trying to be endorsed as a chaplain is endorsed by the Humanist Society. The Humanist Society is not on the list of approved organizations to receive endorsement to be chaplain and this the push.
> 
> It's about people who would like to receive support from like minded individuals. From someone who shares their outlook on life and would have a similar approach to things.
> 
> It's like if you're a dressage rider and have a problem, are you going to another dressage rider or someone who is a bull rider? Or a western pleasure rider? No, you want a dressage rider.
> 
> If I have a crisis and wanted support, I would not want words of god as help or an anecdote from the bible. That would ring hollow to me since I do not find strength in those things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here's the problem with what they are trying to do. I was on an air craft carrier, we had one chaplain. That one chaplain had to take care of all the denominations on board, not one. So our chaplain was as capable of taking care of an atheist as any other religious people we had on board. Will a humanist (first I've heard the term) who doesn't believe in god be able to comfort the religious people on board? I ask because there's something non military don't understand a lot of the time. There isn't enough space to accommodate everything everyone demands. So 1 person, all faiths. Not 1 per faith.


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## DancingArabian

Darrin said:


> Here's the problem with what they are trying to do. I was on an air craft carrier, we had one chaplain. That one chaplain had to take care of all the denominations on board, not one. So our chaplain was as capable of taking care of an atheist as any other religious people we had on board. Will a humanist (first I've heard the term) who doesn't believe in god be able to comfort the religious people on board? I ask because there's something non military don't understand a lot of the time. There isn't enough space to accommodate everything everyone demands. So 1 person, all faiths. Not 1 per faith.


Which is fine but the military requires each chaplain to be endorsed by ONE organization of their choice. This particular person has the endorsement from the place of his choice but that organization is not on the military's list.

So even though he will have to help all faiths in need, he still needs one faith to endorse him

Edited to add: Humanism has been around for something like 500 years. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin

That link shows why the military doesn't accept Humanism for a chaplain. 

Humanism rejects:
-revelation
-mysticism
-divinity
-tradition
-authoritarianism
-faith

So if you reject things like divinity, faith and revelation just exactly how would a humanist chaplain deal with his religious congregation? If you reject tradition and authoritarianism how will a humanist chaplain fair in the military over all? I can see why they are not a recognized organization.


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## HorseMom1025

Darrin said:


> That link shows why the military doesn't accept Humanism for a chaplain.
> 
> Humanism rejects:
> -revelation
> -mysticism
> -divinity
> -tradition
> -authoritarianism
> -faith
> 
> So if you reject things like divinity, faith and revelation just exactly how would a humanist chaplain deal with his religious congregation? If you reject tradition and authoritarianism how will a humanist chaplain fair in the military over all? I can see why they are not a recognized organization.


If you believe all those things are true, how can a religious person offer assistance to a humanist/atheists?

If you claim a person of religious faith can set that aside to assist someone without faith, than the counter argument is true as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin

That's an easy argument to counter. This discussion thread wouldn't even exist if religious people didn't reach out to atheist.


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## HorseMom1025

My point, if you missed it, is that an atheist could just as easily reach out to a religious person. If one can do it, than so can another and you cannot keep them out of a position because they are "not religious" and cannot offer comfort to a religious person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Stephne2007

*Godless*

I belong to a CoDa step study group that believes in a higher power to turn our will & our lives over to. I don't believe in god so I use the stories of my fellow seekers of mental health & serenity. It works for me.


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## PattyAnn

Religion as a topic? I thought this was a horse forum. C'mon folks, unless I missed something this is a bit of stretch. Carry on.


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## Speed Racer

PattyAnn said:


> Religion as a topic? I thought this was a horse forum. C'mon folks, unless I missed something this is a bit of stretch. Carry on.


It's in General Off Topic, so anything goes. I can see you're fairly new here....


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## Darrin

I know you're point and disagree. Why? Because most if not all military chaplains have a degree in religion. Not only that they have to study and understand the different faiths so they can also work with all denominations in their command and give sermons. Now how is someone who doesn't believe in god going to do get those credentials? I'll give you it is possible but it's not likely


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## DancingArabian

An article about the person in question: Outspoken Atheist Seeks Position As U.S. Navy Chaplain | Christian News Network

Says he has 2 master's degrees but not in what. From what I gather, the only thing holding him back is the endorsement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin

After reading that I'm even more convinced this guy shouldn't be a chaplain in the military. He can still serve if he wants and sounds qualified to, just not as a chaplain.

FYI, according to the article there's an estimated 10,000 agnostic and atheist in the military. Since this information is put on your dog tags I would say they have a pretty good idea of the stats. Split those 10,000 up amongst all the commands in all the branches and whoop dee doo, there's a few per command. The command would be better served with a regular chaplain than this guy.

This is all about pushing an agenda that maybe a couple people want. I bet if you polled those 10,000 you would find most saying they don't think the guy should be a chaplain.


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## DancingArabian

No...it's about all belief systems being equal, regardless if there's 1 or 1000 or 10000000000. Progress comes from people willing to make a stand. I'm sure I can find a group on that list that has maybe a handful of service members involved with. Should groups like that be taken off the list because they're not popular?

I think if be can do the job, which I believe he can, and if hes qualified which it sounds like he is he should be a chaplain.

It's not an attack against Christians. He's just trying to say his belief system is just as valid.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin

You're point is invalid with the military, they try to accommodate everyone but the reality is they can't and they know it. Knowing that, they try and do the best the can for majority and this is one of those cases. With an unlimited budget, unlimited number of personnel and unlimited resources they could accommodate the 1 or 1000 or 10000000 but we live in reality not fantasy land.


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## DancingArabian

Darrin said:


> You're point is invalid with the military, they try to accommodate everyone but the reality is they can't and they know it. Knowing that, they try and do the best the can for majority and this is one of those cases. With an unlimited budget, unlimited number of personnel and unlimited resources they could accommodate the 1 or 1000 or 10000000 but we live in reality not fantasy land.


I don't think adding another group to the list will cost that much in resources 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HorseMom1025

As an agnostic, I often offer comfort to all my friends regardless of their beliefs (or lack thereof). I am not less because I don't quote scripture at them. A compassionate person is compassionate by nature, not religion and my thoughts, words and actions are not of lesser value to those who turn to me in a time of crisis.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin

You missed the part where I said doing the best they can for as many as they can. Putting an atheist in that position doesn't make the cut.


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## Saddlebag

A very good friend of my father's was a university educated theologian who became and army chaplain. As he spoke with soldiers he was skillful enough to touch everyone and the words god and jesus weren't mentioned. Nor did he quote from the bible. It isn't necessary.


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## Darrin

HorseMom1025 said:


> As an agnostic, I often offer comfort to all my friends regardless of their beliefs (or lack thereof). I am not less because I don't quote scripture at them. A compassionate person is compassionate by nature, not religion and my thoughts, words and actions are not of lesser value to those who turn to me in a time of crisis.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I honestly don't think agnostic and atheist should be pigeon holed together. They are two different beliefs. Agnostic believe something is out there they just don't know what. It could be an advanced alien race, it might be God, it could be a super advanced AI or anything else that comes to mind. Atheist believe there is nothing out there.

But here's the other issue you are not running into in your position. No one is coming to you expecting answers about theological questions, that's what they go to their chaplain for.


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## HorseMom1025

Darrin: And I disagree that only a religiously trained person can do the job. It takes a compassionate individual to handle the great variances in people's backgrounds and belief systems. Perhaps the military should do away with chaplains completely and just use trained counselors and therapists. THOSE individuals could serve everyone without the worry over religion (or lack thereof).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HorseMom1025

I only say that I am agnostic. Agnostics have similar problems to atheists when it comes to this type of question. All the religious people want to shove us in a corner and treat us as "less" or without value because we do not buy into organized religion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin

And just how do you plan to answer questions on religion and give sermons to the people under your command without the back ground?


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## HorseMom1025

Why should the military provide it? Can a Christian chaplain minister to the Muslims, Jews, and Buddhists in their command? Can they put together an appropriate service for all? Why is the military wasting resources on religion in the first place?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

HorseMom1025 said:


> All the religious people want to shove us in a corner and treat us as "less" or without value because we do not buy into organized religion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hyperbole much there, dear? No not ALL religious people want to shove you in a corner and treat you as 'less'. There's that ugly reverse prejudice rearing its head again. :-x


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## HorseMom1025

Prejudice is prejudice. Reverse prejudice does not exist.

I apologize for my exaggeration, but the my point still stands. Many Christians claim that there is a war against Christianity. I say that the silent minority is finally standing up and demanding the same rights and consideration that most Christians take for granted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin

HorseMom1025 said:


> Why should the military provide it? Can a Christian chaplain minister to the Muslims, Jews, and Buddhists in their command? Can they put together an appropriate service for all? Why is the military wasting resources on religion in the first place?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First of all the chaplains are from multiple faiths. Second is they are trained to administer to the different faiths. Third is they can provide sermons for the different faiths but usually give non denominational sermons so you have a wide variety sitting in the chapel. Fourth of all if you haven't noticed the military travels a lot so a chaplain is provided to travel with them. Lastly, their door is open to all comers regardless of faith or lack there of. 

I've got the distinct impression you don't know how the military operates and so arguing from a civilians perspective on how it should be. These are two completely different worlds.


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## Darrin

HorseMom1025 said:


> Prejudice is prejudice. Reverse prejudice does not exist.
> 
> I apologize for my exaggeration, but the my point still stands. Many Christians claim that there is a war against Christianity. I say that the silent minority is finally standing up and demanding the same rights and consideration that most Christians take for granted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lets check, the article you posted had 10k atheist/agnostic and we have about 1.4 million active members. That's .7% of all active members who are atheist/agnostic. Those same 10k can go to the chaplain, counselor or see a psychologist if they want.

EDIT: removed part of the post due to realizing I had not read something right.


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## Missy May

HorseMom1025 said:


> Why should the military provide it? Can a Christian chaplain minister to the Muslims, Jews, and Buddhists in their command? Can they put together an appropriate service for all? Why is the military wasting resources on religion in the first place?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This would be the least of your worries concerning waste of resources, trust me. Why would they not provide a chapel (which can be used as a multi-use building, btw) and a "chaplain"? Say you are stationed in Japan, do you speak Japanese? Or, say you are a young recruit...do you have a car?


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## Faceman

DancingArabian said:


> I don't think adding another group to the list will cost that much in resources
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think you are missing Darrin's point. If the military is required to provide a special "chaplain" just for atheists, to be equitable they should have to provide a chaplain for Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and many other denominations - on every single military post. The concept is both absurd and expensive. The military has always taken an ecumenical stance and there is usually one Protestant Chaplain, and one Catholic Chaplain that serve everyone...sometimes there are more on very large posts, of course. If you want to add 15 more chaplains to every post, that is around $1 million in annual salaries PER POST, and there are over 1,000 military posts around the world - that's over $1 billion a year - and that wouldn't even begin to cover all the denominations and religious type groups there are. Are you aware there are over 200 religious denominations in the US? Having a chaplain for each at each military base would approach $200 billion a year.

There is nothing "special" about atheists - we do not owe them a "chaplain" of their very own paid for with our tax dollars any more than we owe every one of the 200 denominations and scores of other groups classified as a "religion".

As usual, just another minority group wants special consideration - at taxpayer expense...


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## Saddlebag

Can a chaplain minister to other faiths. That's like asking if a psychiatrist is trained to deal in a particular religion only. It's not always about the religion but the emotional support a good chaplain can provide.


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## tempest

Yes, chaplains can minister to other faiths. And in the military environment they often do.


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## Missy May

Well, I think calling it an atheist chaplain is a bit ridiculous. But, I can't see where having some sort of "group leader" is a big deal. There are plenty of counselors already at hand, there would be no need to hire someone to specifically facilitate "atheist group" meetings. If there are that many atheist on any given post that are interested in "meetings" - surely one could volunteer to be a "leader". I don't see why they couldn't use the chapel for their "flock". Otherwise, do these people have anything else to complain about - it is not a recognized organized religion.


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## bsms

People in the military who don't believe in God already have a vast support system in the military. You can get non-religious advice from uncounted varieties of family support, financial support, etc. Yes, religious people can also get secular advice and support from those sources.

The chapel exists to support people who HAVE religious beliefs. If the non-religious want to get together and do something together on Sunday morning, they can meet at the Golf Course (if it is a US Air Force base), the Gym, or gather in a dorm common room and watch secular humanists preaching humanism on any secular show - and there are hundreds.

The question is not "Does the military have support systems for non-believers?", because they do. The question is if religious people can be given any support in their belief in God. And for 200+ years, the answer has been, "Of course!" Refusing that would be bias and discrimination against believers. During the last half of my career, I averaged nearly 6 months a year deployed. Since I worked 7 days/week, I often forgot it was Sunday, or would have been hard pressed to get free during services. But I should not have been forced to spend half my adult life in a totally secular environment.

Although I'm a Baptist, I'm not big on going up to strangers and saying, "Are you SAVVEEDDDD?" It is like when the pastor of the church I go to wanted to go door-to-door in the local neighborhood. At 8 AM. On Saturday. I told him someone knocking on my door at 8 AM Saturday had better start off with "Your house is on fire!" Anything less than that would get him thrown off the property!

If someone asks me a question, I should be free to respond. If asked about XYZ, I ought to be able to include my belief in God in response, if it is relevant. And when I deployed to a tent in Saudi Arabia - as I did more times than I counted - I should have been able to go to a religious service when my military duties did not conflict. The chaplain might be Lutheran or Catholic instead of Baptist. Oh well. I've known some wonderful Catholics, and some rotten Baptists.

In Afghanistan in 2007, finding a Catholic priest would have been a challenge. The military tried, but having a priest available everywhere someone might be dying wasn't possible. But as a retired old fat fart, it seems the current military is increasing hostile to anyone who is a Christian, cowed by atheists who attack every manifestation of religious belief.

I went to college in Utah. I wasn't Mormon, but I didn't expect my Mormon neighbors to give up their beliefs to humor me. I didn't see any value in trying to stamp out any Mormon influence. If I couldn't stand Mormons, I shouldn't have gone to college in Utah. And in return, FWIW, the Mormons always treated me decently. Well, one guy refused to rent to me because I was Baptist, and I once heard a woman explain why she kept her kids away from our house on Halloween by saying, "You just don't know what a Baptist might do!" :shock:

But other than that, I had 6 years of good experiences in Utah...:wink:


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## Missy May

Well, you have to admit....the timing for demanding an atheist priest, oh..I mean chaplain (i.e., paid position), is kind of funny. That budget cut memo must have been put on a smaller, cost savings post-it that was so small and thin they missed it. I suppose they could send out non-prayers to the big non-god in the sky for direction,


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## Faceman

Missy May said:


> Well, you have to admit....the timing for demanding an atheist priest, oh..I mean chaplain (i.e., paid position), is kind of funny. That budget cut memo must have been put on a smaller, cost savings post-it that was so small and thin they missed it. I suppose they could send out non-prayers to the big non-god in the sky for direction,


Timing is never an issue for radical minority activists making frivolous demands - you should know that by now...


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## cowgirllinda1952

*I actually unsubscribed to another forum called cafe Mom, because of so many post saying things like "In order to be a good mom, I must teach my kids that God does not exist, and the Bible is a Fairy Tale!!"*


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## DancingArabian

Faceman said:


> I think you are missing Darrin's point. If the military is required to provide a special "chaplain" just for atheists, to be equitable they should have to provide a chaplain for Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, and many other denominations - on every single military post. The concept is both absurd and expensive. The military has always taken an ecumenical stance and there is usually one Protestant Chaplain, and one Catholic Chaplain that serve everyone...sometimes there are more on very large posts, of course. If you want to add 15 more chaplains to every post, that is around $1 million in annual salaries PER POST, and there are over 1,000 military posts around the world - that's over $1 billion a year - and that wouldn't even begin to cover all the denominations and religious type groups there are. Are you aware there are over 200 religious denominations in the US? Having a chaplain for each at each military base would approach $200 billion a year.
> 
> There is nothing "special" about atheists - we do not owe them a "chaplain" of their very own paid for with our tax dollars any more than we owe every one of the 200 denominations and scores of other groups classified as a "religion".
> 
> As usual, just another minority group wants special consideration - at taxpayer expense...


All bases are not equipped with a chaplain of every faith now so why would they be required to do so if the humanist society was approved as an endorsing organization? All that needs to be done is to allow the humanist society to be approved to endorse chaplains. Anyone else who wants to be an atheist chaplain will still have to undergo the same processes as before, that won't change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

Darrin said:


> First of all the chaplains are from multiple faiths. Second is they are trained to administer to the different faiths. Third is they can provide sermons for the different faiths but usually give non denominational sermons so you have a wide variety sitting in the chapel. Fourth of all if you haven't noticed the military travels a lot so a chaplain is provided to travel with them. Lastly, their door is open to all comers regardless of faith or lack there of.
> 
> I've got the distinct impression you don't know how the military operates and so arguing from a civilians perspective on how it should be. These are two completely different worlds.


 My first husband was in the armed forces and I was an army wife so I know how the system works in the UK at least
What I struggle with though is even if a chaplain can study all faiths and be trained to administer in all of them, and from what I saw they were always very sincere welcoming people but they must still fundamentally believe in one particular faith that they actually belong too - as in 'was baptized into'
There are basic similarities between Catholics and Protestants but Mormons (probably the wealthiest Church in terms of disposable wealth) and Jehovah Witnesses wont take part in any form of worship in a Church other than of their own affiliation so how could they be involved in an 'all comers church' that acknowledged the Cross as a sacred or believed in the Holy Trinity?
That's not even touching on all the Jewish and Muslim people in the Military
Just a thought.


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## bsms

Most folks in the military accept the limitations that manning and budgets impose. It is probably harder on Catholics than Protestants, since Catholics need a priest to perform certain religious functions. For my part, I considered chaplains to simply be people who would offer support from the perspective of someone who believes in God. 

When I was stationed in England, an LDS (Mormon) chaplain was nearly given the Protestant service to head. The 'congregation' told the other staff that no one would attend, because the theological differences between Protestant Christianity and the LDS are greater than the divide between Catholics and Protestants. The Chapel backed down, and let him lead an LDS service for anyone who wished.

It isn't a perfect system, but it does allow some consideration for those who believe in God. If I needed advice, I'd much rather go to a Jewish Chaplain than a humanist one, because the Jewish chaplain would undoubtedly share more of my worldview.


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## Missy May

Well, if I did not have faith to help me forgive and accept the actions of non-horsey people - God help them.


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## RedHorseRidge

GamingGrrl said:


> The "happy holidays" pushers are most likely the pushy atheists.


This may have been addressed already (I'm reading posts in order), but I very much disagree with this statement. When one does not know the religion of another, it is much more polite to say Happy Holidays than Merry Christmas. Where I work we have such a wide variety of religions, Happy Holidays covers them all, where Merry Christmas does not. It has nothing to do with being a pushy atheist and everything to do with respecting people's religions...


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## jaydee

Since the Protestant are a 'spin off' from the Catholics courtesy of Henry 8th then they are actually very close but the Mormons & Jehovah Witnesses do have some pretty major differences but both are very committed to their faiths - more likely in the UK at least to attend church meetings several times a week than the average protestant who goes several times in a lifetime - baptisms, weddings, funerals and maybe Christmas and Easter
When I was in Germany they used to go to local Chapels - the same would apply in most countries that have the facilities - its where they don't exist and they are likely the most traumatic to be stationed in like Iraq and Afghanistan where its likely most important to be able to talk to someone of your own faith if you're struggling
The Happy Holiday is a tough one as it wouldn't actually be a holiday at all if not for certain religious groups acknowledging Christmas as the time to remember the birth of Christ
I'm inclined to think a totally non-religious sympathetic trained ear might work better for me in that situation than someone who had very different beliefs in who or what God, Jesus Christ & the Holy Spirit are, heaven, hell, purgatory, life after death ................


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## RedHorseRidge

Darrin said:


> I honestly don't think agnostic and atheist should be pigeon holed together. They are two different beliefs. Agnostic believe something is out there they just don't know what. It could be an advanced alien race, it might be God, it could be a super advanced AI or anything else that comes to mind. Atheist believe there is nothing out there.


Not quite. While an agnostic believes it is impossible to know if god(s) exist (or simply refuses to believe one way or the other), atheism is the absence of a belief in god(s)...but that doesn't mean "nothing." Some categorize Buddhism as atheism because of there is no "personal god." An atheist could believe in an advanced, alien, non-god race or a super advanced AI; he just doesn't believe they are gods.

Agnostic is about "not knowing" and gnostic is about knowing. A theist believes a god exists, an atheist does not believe gods exist. You can actually have agnostic atheists (doesn't believe gods exist but doesn't know for sure), gnostic atheists (does not believe any god exists and claims to be know for sure), agnostic theists (believes a god exists, but won't claim this belief to be true), and gnostic theists (believes a god exists and claims to know this as fact).

But yes, agnostic and atheist are certainly two different things.

I'm an agnostic bigfooter... while I don't believe in the existence of Big Foot, I can't claim to know for certain... Oh, and a Frisbeetarian... : )


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## Darrin

I'm agnostic myself. I believe there is something or someone hanging around but it could be an advanced alien race or a god. Heck it could be a pantheon of gods for all I know.


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## Faceman

RedHorseRidge said:


> This may have been addressed already (I'm reading posts in order), but I very much disagree with this statement. When one does not know the religion of another, it is much more polite to say Happy Holidays than Merry Christmas. Where I work we have such a wide variety of religions, Happy Holidays covers them all, where Merry Christmas does not. It has nothing to do with being a pushy atheist and everything to do with respecting people's religions...


Well, I totally disagree. Christmas is not only a Christian holiday, it is a national holiday. I know lots of Jews and other non-Christians that celebrate "Christmas" - just not the religious aspect of it. I will NEVER say "Happy Holidays" or "Holiday tree", and I don't feel a bit guilty about it and if non-Christians don't like it tooooo bad. Most of them, such as Muslims and Jews have their own holidays. For Pete's sake, I don't hear anyone belittling Jews for saying Happy Hanukkah, and I certainly am not going to be offended if db wishes me a Happy Hanukkah or tell him to say "Happy Holidays" instead - the proper response is to say thank you and wish him a Happy Hanukkah in return...


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## DancingArabian

Faceman said:


> Well, I totally disagree. Christmas is not only a Christian holiday, it is a national holiday. I know lots of Jews and other non-Christians that celebrate "Christmas" - just not the religious aspect of it. I will NEVER say "Happy Holidays" or "Holiday tree", and I don't feel a bit guilty about it and if non-Christians don't like it tooooo bad. Most of them, such as Muslims and Jews have their own holidays. For Pete's sake, I don't hear anyone belittling Jews for saying Happy Hanukkah, and I certainly am not going to be offended if db wishes me a Happy Hanukkah or tell him to say "Happy Holidays" instead - the proper response is to say thank you and wish him a Happy Hanukkah in return...



Christmas is not a Christian hoiday, it's a holiday adopted by Christians.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tempest

Actually, Christmas is a Christian holiday, they time of year it is celebrated at is based on pagan celebrations though.


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## GamingGrrl

RedHorseRidge said:


> This may have been addressed already (I'm reading posts in order), but I very much disagree with this statement. When one does not know the religion of another, it is much more polite to say Happy Holidays than Merry Christmas. Where I work we have such a wide variety of religions, Happy Holidays covers them all, where Merry Christmas does not. It has nothing to do with being a pushy atheist and everything to do with respecting people's religions...



I just don't understand why people can't take the intention to heart instead of the exact wording. Soon saying happy holidays will be frowned upon because what about people who don't celebrate anything? Don't want them getting offended. As I said earlier, I personally believe that it's the thought that counts. At least they said something nice to a stranger or customer...I do not like overt political correctness whatsoever.

However, say what you will, merry Christmas or happy holidays. I personally say merry Christmas, and I'm an atheist. Still waiting on the day that someone gets offended by me wishing them well. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlexS

Faceman said:


> Well, I totally disagree. Christmas is not only a Christian holiday, it is a national holiday. I know lots of Jews and other non-Christians that celebrate "Christmas" - just not the religious aspect of it. I will NEVER say "Happy Holidays" or "Holiday tree", and I don't feel a bit guilty about it and if non-Christians don't like it tooooo bad. Most of them, such as Muslims and Jews have their own holidays. For Pete's sake, I don't hear anyone belittling Jews for saying Happy Hanukkah, and I certainly am not going to be offended if db wishes me a Happy Hanukkah or tell him to say "Happy Holidays" instead - the proper response is to say thank you and wish him a Happy Hanukkah in return...


Well yes and no. Happy Holidays includes everyone. A Holiday tree is just insanity, it's a Christmas tree, as true to the beliefs and customs of Christians. That would be as insane as calling a menorah something else. 

However it's not Christmas to everyone, and I think it's respectful to realize that. 

I choose to say Happy Holidays to people unless I know 'what' they are, and can wish them their own thing. Usually that's Happy Christmas, but not always.


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## SouthernTrails

.

If 90% of the USA starts celebrating Kwanzaa or whatever other name a few use, I will say Merry Kwanzaa, until then I will say Merry Christmas, you will have to pry happy holidays from my cold dead lips, PC people can stick their head back in the sand......sorry :lol:

.


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## Faceman

DancingArabian said:


> Christmas is not a Christian hoiday, it's a holiday adopted by Christians.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, that's what you people are always saying. Perhaps you need a reminder as to what Christmas is...

*What is the origin of the word Christmas?*

*Christmas* comes from the Old English words _Cristes moesse_, 'the mass or festival of Christ'. The first celebration took place in Rome about the middle of the fourth century. The exact date of the Nativity is not known, but even in pre-Christian times the period between December 25 and January 6 was considered a special time of year - now known as "The Twelve Days of Christmas". The abbreviation Xmas, thought as sacrilegious by some, is entirely appropriate. The letter X (_chi_) is the first letter in the Greek word for Christ.

What some yahoo dancing around a maypole at Stonehenge did is irrelevant, as is whatever festivals, fairs, ceremonies, human sacrifices, midnight orgies, body painting, or anything else may have been done at the same time of the year by other cultures or religions. To over 2 billion Christians in the world, Christmas is exactly what it is - Christmas...


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## RedHorseRidge

Faceman said:


> Well, I totally disagree. Christmas is not only a Christian holiday, it is a national holiday.


So what? Just because it's a national holiday doesn't mean everyone who lives here has to celebrate it. If DB wished me a happy hanukkah, I wouldn't be offended either... I'm not belittling people for saying merry christmas or happy hanukkah or whatever; I'm simply saying SOME people who say "happy holidays" do it out of respect, NOT because they are pushy atheists or trying to be PC.

For what it's worth, I think "holiday tree" is sort of stupid myself.

Merry christmas, happy hanukkah, merry yule, happy kwanza, happy festivus, feliz navidad, happy bodhi, happy winter solstice, happy new year, happy holidays.... ALL of these are simply seasonal greetings of good will. I see no reason to be offended by ANY of them. But perhaps I'm simply not arrogant enough.


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## Clayton Taffy

People who get upset or offended by me wishing them a Merry Christmas need to get a life!
I would never be offended if someone wished me Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa or Happy anything for that Matter. Do Jehovah's Witnesses get offended if they are wished Happy Halloween? Should we stop saying that now? What about saying Happy Independence day to all of the illegal immigrants, Should we be careful there too? What if someone wishes me a Happy birthday and it's not my birthday?

For God's sake, (oops to all the atheists out there) Is there not enough to be offended by out there, than someone wishing you HAPPY?



*HAPPY TO EVERYONE!*


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## Faceman

AlexS said:


> However it's not Christmas to everyone, and I think it's respectful to realize that.


**sigh**

As I said, Christmas is also a national holiday. Should we say "Happy Holiday" on Thanksgiving to accommodate blacks and immigrants to whom the historical significance of Thanksgiving in America does not apply? Should we say "Happy Holiday" on July 4th to accommodate those here on visas or permanent aliens? Should we say "Happy Holiday" on Memorial Day to accommodate those same non-citizens and to accommodate pacifists?

Hell, why not drop ALL the names of our holidays and just call them Holiday #1, Holiday #2, Holiday #3, Holiday #4, etc...just do away with ALL of our traditions and culture in the interest of accommodating every minority and special interest group in the universe. I have nothing against diversity, but as a nation we are losing our identity. I realize that is one of the goal of radical leftists like Obama - achieving a "New World Order", but personally I prefer individual nations with individual identities and cultures. It's funny and quite hypocritical how some people want to bend over backwards to preserve black culture or Hispanic culture or Chinese culture, yet are perfectly willing to discard American culture.

In case I am out of town in 5 months or forget...Merry Christmas...


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## Shropshirerosie

Faceman said:


> Yeah, that's what you people are always saying. Perhaps you need a reminder as to what Christmas is...
> 
> .........
> 
> What some yahoo dancing around a maypole at Stonehenge did is irrelevant, as is whatever festivals, fairs, ceremonies, human sacrifices, midnight orgies, body painting, or anything else may have been done at the same time of the year by other cultures or religions. To over 2 billion Christians in the world, Christmas is exactly what it is - Christmas...


"You people" ?!

Does this refer to all atheists on this thread, or to those involved in the debate about Christmas, or just to people whose views you don't like? Does lumping everyone together like that make their views less valid?

And if you're going to get picky, there were no Maypoles at Stonehenge. That's just plain silly.


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## RedHorseRidge

Taffy Clayton said:


> Is there not enough to be offended by out there, than someone wishing you HAPPY?


I agree 100%, which is why I don't see why people are offended by ANYthing, including happy holidays...


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## RedHorseRidge

Faceman said:


> Should we say "Happy Holiday" on Thanksgiving to accommodate blacks and immigrants to whom the historical significance of Thanksgiving in America does not apply? Should we say "Happy Holiday" on July 4th to accommodate those here on visas or permanent aliens? Should we say "Happy Holiday" on Memorial Day to accommodate those same non-citizens and to accommodate pacifists?


These are specific holidays, not part of holiday seasons. I'll say merry christmas ON christmas day. But as a general greeting, in the holiday season, I see no problem with happy holidays to encompass everyone. See, that's the point... it's a "holiday season", which includes new year's and a bunch of others (some even lump thanksgiving in there and say "happy holidays" from thanksgiving through new year's). "Happy holidays" doesn't exclude christmas; it just includes everything else.


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## Cat

I'm not Christian but I'm not atheist either - though my husband is. The way I look at "Merry Christmas" or any other similar saying/greetings/etc no matter the religion is that in this day and age if someone is wishing me good tidings in whatever form I'm going to accept it with a smile. I may not have their same beliefs, but I can still understand the good intent behind the words and accept them as such. My husband is pretty much the same way. 

I see nothing wrong with Merry Christmas or Happy Holidays. Happy Holidays has been around a long time - nothing new. It was used to combine Christmas and New Years in one easy greeting though the meaning has seemed to evolve. I know Christians who have gone off on someone for saying Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas. The extremes go both ways. 

What I think this whole "Christmas tree" vs "Holiday Tree" etc comes down to is how egocentric we have become as a society. Why are we asking others to change for us? I don't want people to change how they say simple good-intention greetings or what they call things because is might offend. Its about them offering good cheer in the way that has significant meaning to them. Those with different views should be tolerant and accept them as the good-meanings intended like adults rather that whining about the fact someone has not bent over backwards to our own beliefs like sniveling children. 

As a society we should not be moving toward generic greetings so everyone is the exact same to prevent stepping on some toes. How boring! We should accept our differences, embrace them, and learn true tolerance towards others. I don't like people pushing their beliefs on me, but at the same time I hardly see a simple "Merry Christmas" "Happy Hanukkah" etc as pushing beliefs.


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## RedHorseRidge

Taffy Clayton said:


> For God's sake, (oops to all the atheists out there) Is there not enough to be offended by out there, than someone wishing you HAPPY?
> *HAPPY TO EVERYONE!*


I find it rather ironic that two of the people who have "liked" this post clearly have issues with "happy holidays"....


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## morganarab94

Faceman said:


> **sigh**
> 
> As I said, Christmas is also a national holiday. Should we say "Happy Holiday" on Thanksgiving to accommodate blacks and immigrants to whom the historical significance of Thanksgiving in America does not apply? Should we say "Happy Holiday" on July 4th to accommodate those here on visas or permanent aliens? Should we say "Happy Holiday" on Memorial Day to accommodate those same non-citizens and to accommodate pacifists?
> 
> Hell, why not drop ALL the names of our holidays and just call them Holiday #1, Holiday #2, Holiday #3, Holiday #4, etc...just do away with ALL of our traditions and culture in the interest of accommodating every minority and special interest group in the universe. I have nothing against diversity, but as a nation we are losing our identity. I realize that is one of the goal of radical leftists like Obama - achieving a "New World Order", but personally I prefer individual nations with individual identities and cultures. It's funny and quite hypocritical how some people want to bend over backwards to preserve black culture or Hispanic culture or Chinese culture, yet are perfectly willing to discard American culture.
> 
> In case I am out of town in 5 months or forget...Merry Christmas...


I don't usually like to get into debates but I agree with everything about this post..


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## morganarab94

I don't mind if someone says happy holidays to me, just as I would hope someone wouldn't get all bothered if I said Merry Christmas to them!


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## Clayton Taffy

RedHorseRidge said:


> I find it rather ironic that two of the people who have "liked" this post clearly have issues with "happy holidays"....


Ironic??? I thought liking a post means you agree or like, at least somewhat, what the poster is saying. What is ironic about that?

Like I said above, I have no problem with someone wishing me Happy holidays or Happy anything. I do have a problem of being shamed or forced into saying Happy holidays, when my preferred greeting is Merry Christmas.

Just like I send Christmas cards that say Merry Christmas, I do not send holiday cards that say Happy holidays.


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## DancingArabian

Faceman said:


> Yeah, that's what you people are always saying. Perhaps you need a reminder as to what Christmas is...
> 
> *What is the origin of the word Christmas?*
> 
> *Christmas* comes from the Old English words _Cristes moesse_, 'the mass or festival of Christ'. The first celebration took place in Rome about the middle of the fourth century. The exact date of the Nativity is not known, but even in pre-Christian times the period between December 25 and January 6 was considered a special time of year - now known as "The Twelve Days of Christmas". The abbreviation Xmas, thought as sacrilegious by some, is entirely appropriate. The letter X (_chi_) is the first letter in the Greek word for Christ.
> 
> What some yahoo dancing around a maypole at Stonehenge did is irrelevant, as is whatever festivals, fairs, ceremonies, human sacrifices, midnight orgies, body painting, or anything else may have been done at the same time of the year by other cultures or religions. To over 2 billion Christians in the world, Christmas is exactly what it is - Christmas...


"You people"? Wow.

Like you said...Christmas is a date the old time Christians made up. They did not know when Jesus was born - they were guessing. It also conveniently is a time when people of other cultures were celebrating *anyway* - independent of Jesus. The date was picked for a number of reasons, but people were celebrating at that time well before anyone heard of Jesus. It's not a celebrating exclusive to and for him.

I also sincerely doubt a Christmas tree is Christian in origin.

"You people" should perhaps not presume an atheist is devoid of all religious knowledge. I was raised catholic, have completed sacraments (I think 5 of 7), have read the bible multiple times etc etc. Disagreeing with the Christian faith does not make me ignorant of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May

Merry Christmas? Seriously? I hear people say in real life and movies, "Jesus H Christ" (or some derivative of it) pejoratively. Yet, I don't see any cartoons of Allah. There is no constitutional clause concerning limitations to free speech based on who finds what "offensive". Having selective "offensive" hearing is a personal problem, not a "legal right".


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## Faceman

Shropshirerosie said:


> "You people" ?!
> 
> Does this refer to all atheists on this thread, or to those involved in the debate about Christmas, or just to people whose views you don't like? Does lumping everyone together like that make their views less valid?
> 
> And if you're going to get picky, there were no Maypoles at Stonehenge. That's just plain silly.


Yes, "you people" - do you have a problem with that? The context is clear, as is the meaning. People that constantly refer to Christmas as just being a modification of some pagan holiday are full of crap. Christmas is, and always has been, a celebration of the birth of Christ. Period...


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## Faceman

Taffy Clayton said:


> Ironic??? I thought liking a post means you agree or like, at least somewhat, what the poster is saying. What is ironic about that?
> 
> Like I said above, I have no problem with someone wishing me Happy holidays or Happy anything. I do have a problem of being shamed or forced into saying Happy holidays, when my preferred greeting is Merry Christmas.
> 
> Just like I send Christmas cards that say Merry Christmas, I do not send holiday cards that say Happy holidays.


I think your post obviously went over her head...


----------



## Faceman

DancingArabian said:


> "
> "You people" should perhaps not presume an atheist is devoid of all religious knowledge...Disagreeing with the Christian faith does not make me ignorant of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No one said otherwise to either of those statements, did they?

Once again, "you people", obvious in the context, refers to those ignorant people that insist that Christmas is something other than what it is - a celebration of the birth of Christ. For all I know, some culture 2000 years ago had some festival on July 4th right after the summer solstice. If so, it has absolutely nothing to do with the celebration of our independence.

What is it YOU PEOPLE have against using the term "you people"? When it's usage is appropriate, it is appropriate. When it is not it is not. Are you incapable of determining when it is appropriate and when it is not, or do you think the term should just be struck from the English language along with 10 or 20 thousand other words and expressions that can be used inappropriately?...


----------



## SouthernTrails

RedHorseRidge said:


> I find it rather ironic that two of the people who have "liked" this post clearly have issues with "happy holidays"....


The Majority of people that are saying Happy Holidays are people that work in some kind of store and a *forced* to say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas, *that is my issue*..... 

A few of these employees at a store I may frequent and remember me have said after the Happy Holidays "Merry Christmas" in a lower voice after the "official store response" and winked or said "we are forced to say Happy Holidays.....

So yes, being forced to be PC is a real issue with me :wink:

.


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## Speed Racer

I must live in the most un-PC place in the U.S., since everyone here says 'Merry Christmas', not 'Happy Holidays'. Yes, even the retail employees.


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## morganarab94

In my elementary school we were not allowed to say Merry Christmas...it had to be happy holidays and we couldn't do anything that pertained to the idea of "Christmas"...yet we could say Happy Halloween and celebrate that..At my old job we had to say Happy Holidays as well.


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## SouthernTrails

Speed Racer said:


> *I must live in the most un-PC place in the U.S.,* since everyone here says 'Merry Christmas', not 'Happy Holidays'. Yes, even the retail employees.


Shame on you for living there :lol::lol::lol:

In the last few years, the amount of people having to say or saying Happy Holidays has decreased in most stores, maybe because of Public Outrage of them being forced to say that :wink:

.


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## Muppetgirl

Last Christmas I went into a Macs store here in Canada (you see where this going right) and the East Indian clerk (I assume, excuse my ignorance, not meaning to be, but he was wearing a turban and had a long beard) said 'Merry Christmas' to me.......I was actually stopped in my tracks and I offered the same greeting back, I say it all the time, it's ingrained in my brain and I don't take offence to it nor do I ask or require people stop saying it. I'm not that much of a grinch:shock:


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## Faceman

Speed Racer said:


> I must live in the most un-PC place in the U.S., since everyone here says 'Merry Christmas', not 'Happy Holidays'. Yes, even the retail employees.


Is that why they call it Sanity?...:rofl:


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## jaydee

There was a small group of older women in the UK village I moved from that were the mainstay of the little church there and central to everything that went on, it should sound homely and comforting yet they were also the source of all the bad gossip, petty complaints, ill will and spitefulness that gives that sort of Christian a bad name and sets a bad example.
Surely if someone says Happy Holiday they are at least being pleasant and wishing you well? I have no problem with it. Its the thought behind it that counts.
Whatever happened to the love thy neighbor and tolerance that Christ tried to teach?


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## Muppetgirl

Oh I can't help myself, this whole discussion makes me want to post this - darn it:wink:


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## Speed Racer

We'uns who live in southern Virginia are far too close to the Baptist holy city (Lynchburg) to say anything _except_ Merry Christmas! :wink:


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## Cat

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> Shame on you for living there :lol::lol::lol:
> 
> In the last few years, the amount of people having to say or saying Happy Holidays has decreased in most stores, maybe because of Public Outrage of them being forced to say that :wink:
> 
> .


When I worked in customer service for a short while - we were not allowed to say Merry Christmas unless the customer said it first - then we could feel free to do so as well.


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## RedHorseRidge

Taffy Clayton said:


> Ironic??? I thought liking a post means you agree or like, at least somewhat, what the poster is saying. What is ironic about that?


You were saying people shouldn't get bent out of shape if someone wishes them happy _anything_... yet some of those who "liked" it get bent out of shape if someone says _happy holidays_... if you can't see the irony, then I can't help you.

ETA: Southern has explained why... he doesn't like people being forced to do it.


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## Shropshirerosie

Faceman said:


> Yes, "you people" - do you have a problem with that? The context is clear, as is the meaning. People that constantly refer to Christmas as just being a modification of some pagan holiday are full of crap. Christmas is, and always has been, a celebration of the birth of Christ. Period...


I suspect this is a combination of colloquial use, and typed language leading to misinterpretation by me.

I would never use "you people" unless I was being deliberately aggressive in tone and meaning. I would use "you" meaning the many people I am addressing. When I read your statement I was so surprised at the aggression in that first statement that I reacted strongly to it.

This may be an international language use thing....


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## Clayton Taffy

RedHorseRidge said:


> You were saying people shouldn't get bent out of shape if someone wishes them happy _anything_... yet some of those who "liked" it get bent out of shape if someone says _happy holidays_... if you can't see the irony, then I can't help you.
> 
> ETA: Southern has explained why... he doesn't like people being forced to do it.



As I read their posts the posters said they will never say Happy Holidays themselves. They said nothing about being offended if someone said it to them.
And I think it is pretty much a given, most people, that are offended by happy holidays, are offended when they or anyone, is forbidden to say Merry Christmas.

So, you can read irony into whatever you wish, I do not believe it applies here.
See I can help you.


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## Saddlebag

Everything written about Jesus birth (which is a story that came much later) was all based on Equinox and the Pagan rituals. The story of Jesus being born in a stable, think about it, the reality. A baby born in a stable would have had zero chance of survival as would the mother. It wouldn't have been the lovely fluffed up feed box we see depicted. And how did the shepherds and wise men follow the star to the stable. A star that's thousands of miles high would be shining over entire cities. It makes for an imaginative read but definitely not feasible.


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## FlyGap

Ok! Go tell the billion people in Africa they should be dead for being born/birthing in huts... And what do you think the sailors did before GPS? Ummmm, that would be navigate by the stars.

I'm terribly sorry so many of you have had poor experiences with so called religious people...
But in general they are a good lot. Regardless of all the wars that have been waged throughout history (that have gotten us to where we are now) there is a lot to be thankful for when it comes to religious charity and morality. I wonder what the percentage of purely Atheist charity is compared to say... Christian Missionary work, Mormon service, etc...


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## demonwolfmoon

flygap, I imagine a lot of women and infants DO die from unsanitary conditions and lack of healthcare.

actually, given the sheer number of believers, im sure the charitable contributions are greater.My one ex FB friend (unfriended for being an ignorant hateful thing) contributed to a lot of causes FINANCIALLY. She was big on anti slaughter, for example...but wouldnt get her hands dirty. Wasnt christ, for example, one who got down WITH the impoverished? I know Buddha was...

Anyway, I just went on a tangent, but there is more than one way to contribute, and im sure many of us do, though smaller in NUMBER, and without the religious GUILT. Though seeing how hateful human beings are, I help in small ways and encourage DD to do the same. Admittedly, I prefer rescuing animals, nursing wildlife over dropping money in a donation jar...

PS for the fiftieth time, not everyone needs religious guilt to try to live a moral life. 

Though, I was once told by a Muslim coworker of my DH (we were arguing religion) that the inner voice that tells me stealing/lying etc is wrong...IS the voice of God.

*shrug*


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## jaydee

FlyGap said:


> Ok! Go tell the billion people in Africa they should be dead for being born/birthing in huts... And what do you think the sailors did before GPS? Ummmm, that would be navigate by the stars.
> 
> I'm terribly sorry so many of you have had poor experiences with so called religious people...
> *But in general they are a good lot.* Regardless of all the wars that have been waged throughout history (that have gotten us to where we are now) there is a lot to be thankful for when it comes to religious charity and morality. I wonder what the percentage of purely Atheist charity is compared to say... Christian Missionary work, Mormon service, etc...


 Yes they are - and that's speaking from experience.
I was baptized by my great grandfather as were all of his grandchildren and grt grandchildren born in his lifetime. He was a wonderful example of what he stood for and believed in - that regardless of how we worship, where we worship or what our religion or lack of religion we will be judged by our works and how we treat our fellow man
Sadly its often the so called 'Christians that do set the bad example that make the most noise with their rudeness and aggressive attitude who are the ones that are the most seen and heard
Christmas did just replace the old pagan festivals from that time of year that the people didn't want to give up. It fitted in very well. They celebrated the 'coming of the light' which was vital to their survival, a sign that there would once again be life in nature after the death of winter and Christ was seen as the Light who showed us there was life after death.
I don't think there is anywhere in the Bible that orders us to celebrate his birth which is why the Jehovah Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas - only Easter as it was the sacrifice that mattered.


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## Fort fireman

Saddlebag said:


> Everything written about Jesus birth (which is a story that came much later) was all based on Equinox and the Pagan rituals. The story of Jesus being born in a stable, think about it, the reality. A baby born in a stable would have had zero chance of survival as would the mother. It wouldn't have been the lovely fluffed up feed box we see depicted. And how did the shepherds and wise men follow the star to the stable. A star that's thousands of miles high would be shining over entire cities. It makes for an imaginative read but definitely not feasible.


Human babies were born out doors, caves, log huts, teepees, wigwams , you name it for mallenia before the birth of Christ. Christmas was placed close to some Pagan holidays(true), there are some pagan traditions involved(true) but the day of Christmas is for the celebration of the birth. Regardless of whether or not that is the true day. 
July 4 is set aside for independence day but it was actually unanimously approved on July 2. should we say that isnt what the day is for just because 1500 years ago on that day some pagan slaughterd a sheep?


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## Saddlebag

The chances of both child and mother surviving birth was almost zero for thousands of years and it's still like that in third world countries. Unsanitary conditions was and still is the cause. So how unsanitary is a stable? Right at the top of the list. In jesus time people were put in sepulchres because no one knew if they were dead for sure. There were many instances where the so-called dead arose and left.


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## Missy May

Saddlebag said:


> *The chances of both child and mother surviving birth was almost zero for thousands of years* and it's still like that in third world countries. Unsanitary conditions was and still is the cause. So how unsanitary is a stable? Right at the top of the list. In jesus time people were put in sepulchres because no one knew if they were dead for sure. There were many instances where the so-called dead arose and left.


Obviously, this is not true. Humans radiated nearly all over the globe. They are no different from other animals - or do you think they are "special", chosen perhaps? And, certain races have almost no childbirth deaths (either the mother, child or both), while others have a significant percentage - but none has near 100%. 

If I were faced with the choice between straw manger bedding in the open air and human "bedding" that had probably not been washed in months in close enclosed quarters with humans which carry human diseases, infections, and parasites - I would choose the straw w the moo cow, any day. Unsanitary is a relative term, in this case.

Religious text is just that, it is not to be confused w a scientific journal. It appears as if Mendel took a few liberties w his data....does this mean there is no such thing as inherited traits? 

Whatever your personal belief is concerning the origin of life is - it is. And? I may have missed it, but I don't believe you have identified what your personal belief is. You have only attacked what _you_ believe the beliefs of individuals that identify as Christians/jews to be.


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## Jessabel

I don't get a lot of flack because I try to avoid the subject of religion, especially when I'm around people who I know will have a problem with my beliefs. It's a useless thing to debate. Your faith is your business, and trying to convert people is 1) totally wrong and 2) an exercise in futility.

I have had encounters with JW's, but so far, they've been very polite. I just thank them for whatever booklet they're handing out and that's that.


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## Missy May

demonwolfmoon said:


> PS for the fiftieth time, not everyone needs religious guilt to try to live a moral life.


I was raised a "staunch atheist". I was deprived of being encourage to read the bible, which if nothing else leaves a huge hole in one's education. However, my parents could/can quote the bible with the _very best of them_. When I got around to becoming familiar w the bible, I noticed there was shocking similarity to the morals and values I had been taught and to those of biblical teachings. I wouldn't attribute that to my not having needed religious influence to know right from wrong from a "moral" aspect, I would attribute it to the obvious - there was a religious influence - indirectly. If you merely live in western culture the same influence is there. I feel no guilt if I swat a fly or mosquito, but maybe I would if I were hindu. But I would hope to God that if I were raised in a country where the state was the religion (communism), I would still be horrifically repulsed by the idea of eating puppies.


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## DancingArabian

Shropshirerosie said:


> I suspect this is a combination of colloquial use, and typed language leading to misinterpretation by me.
> 
> I would never use "you people" unless I was being deliberately aggressive in tone and meaning. I would use "you" meaning the many people I am addressing. When I read your statement I was so surprised at the aggression in that first statement that I reacted strongly to it.
> 
> This may be an international language use thing....



Ditto this. "You people" comes off as very condescending, hostile and just snarky.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## demonwolfmoon

Missy May said:


> I was raised a "staunch atheist". I was deprived of being encourage to read the bible, which if nothing else leaves a huge hole in one's education. However, my parents could/can quote the bible with the _very best of them_. When I got around to becoming familiar w the bible, I noticed there was shocking similarity to the morals and values I had been taught and to those of biblical teachings. I wouldn't attribute that to my not having needed religious influence to know right from wrong from a "moral" aspect, I would attribute it to the obvious - there was a religious influence - indirectly. If you merely live in western culture the same influence is there. I feel no guilt if I swat a fly or mosquito, but maybe I would if I were hindu. But I would hope to God that if I were raised in a country where the state was the religion (communism), I would still be horrifically repulsed by the idea of eating puppies.


missymay, there are similarities in the values of all the major religions.

As for me, I was raised by huge religious hypocrites. So I read and was preached to, and went to Christian school, and 
largely kept apartmfrom my peers (wasnt allowed outside, and apparently all the neighbors were evil). I found that not hurting people for the sake of not hurting people MAKES SENSE. as do most of the othwr religious "rules". I reject the reasoning, and just try to be a good person.
Religion set forth a guideline that allowed the human race to be successful as a large com,munoty. You could replace the wordmreligion with culture, and the effect is the same. But really it boiled down to rules to keep us together cohesively instead of killing each other over goats, women and farmland. I just think that many of us see the sense in containing ourselvea without the threat of hellfire.


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## Saddlebag

A week ago I had a chance encounter with an old friend at our medical clinic but she hastened away. Today I got the story. The night before she'd had a stroke and could see only light and dark. This woman over the past 10 years has been attacked by one form of cancer after another. The first in her shoulder, chemo and surgery. It returned a few years later. Knee surgery, cancer returned in her mouth, more chemo and surgery. Because the chemo steals calcium from the bones her lower back now requires shots of potent drugs and now the stroke. I asked her what else could be thrown at her. Her response was God was looking after her. I suggested perhaps he'd turned his back on her. She believed he'd give her only what she could handle that she needed to believe that.


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## Fort fireman

Saddlebag said:


> A week ago I had a chance encounter with an old friend at our medical clinic but she hastened away. Today I got the story. The night before she'd had a stroke and could see only light and dark. This woman over the past 10 years has been attacked by one form of cancer after another. The first in her shoulder, chemo and surgery. It returned a few years later. Knee surgery, cancer returned in her mouth, more chemo and surgery. Because the chemo steals calcium from the bones her lower back now requires shots of potent drugs and now the stroke. I asked her what else could be thrown at her. Her response was God was looking after her. I suggested perhaps he'd turned his back on her. She believed he'd give her only what she could handle that she needed to believe that.


I have a hard time understanding what it accomplished by throwing that statement at someone that is faithful and obviously using that faith to stay strong. Nothing like a kick to the ribs when someone is down.


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## Missy May

Saddlebag said:


> A week ago I had a chance encounter with an old friend at our medical clinic but she hastened away. Today I got the story. The night before she'd had a stroke and could see only light and dark. This woman over the past 10 years has been attacked by one form of cancer after another. The first in her shoulder, chemo and surgery. It returned a few years later. Knee surgery, cancer returned in her mouth, more chemo and surgery. Because the chemo steals calcium from the bones her lower back now requires shots of potent drugs and now the stroke. I asked her what else could be thrown at her. Her response was God was looking after her. I suggested perhaps he'd turned his back on her. She believed he'd give her only what she could handle that she needed to believe that.


Maybe you could have told her something a little more uplifting from your own book of faith, you know, something like, before modern medicine either the child or the mother died at childbirth - so it is a miracle that any humans are alive - anywhere.


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## FlyGap

Oh my. I really have no words for your little story...

Welcome to the stereotypical athiest club.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Muppetgirl

Hmmmm Saddlebag if I were your old friend I would've hastened away too hearing a remark like what you said....atheist or not.


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## Missy May

demonwolfmoon said:


> missymay, there are similarities in the values of all the major religions.
> 
> As for me, I was raised by huge religious hypocrites. So I read and was preached to, and went to Christian school, and
> largely kept apartmfrom my peers (wasnt allowed outside, and apparently all the neighbors were evil). I found that not hurting people for the sake of not hurting people MAKES SENSE. as do most of the othwr religious "rules". I reject the reasoning, and just try to be a good person.
> Religion set forth a guideline that allowed the human race to be successful as a large com,munoty. You could replace the wordmreligion with culture, and the effect is the same. But really it boiled down to rules to keep us together cohesively instead of killing each other over goats, women and farmland. I just think that many of us see the sense in containing ourselvea without the threat of hellfire.


I think religion is a very personal "matter". I am guessing your parent's personal interpretation of whatever religion is the exception. I don't fear hellfire, for example, and I have absolutely no desire to "convert" anyone to my way of thinking. 
People can have bad thoughts, but not act on their thoughts b/c they fear the consequences of what they will face here on earth due to laws - written or otherwise. Almost all known "societies" practice(d) some sort of religion and had/have cultures, and many never constructed cities. But, no civilization was ever created w/o agriculture of some sort. Of course, communist states eliminated religion by law "after" both the cities and religion(s) existed. Other animals have cultures, and they contain themselves, too - but granted, no cities, none known, anyway. I don't think religion is all that keeps people from committing crimes either, in other words - and I don't think religions were independently devised to "control the masses" while civilizations were being built. Humans are the most dangerous animal on the planet, bar none. Like it or not, w/o freedom of religion any freedom you have is guaranteed to evaporate - _not_ civilization. Maybe civilization as you know it, but not civilization. While people are free in a free society to attack religion (I am not saying you are), they might want to look at the really big picture. 
Religious persecution is either a good thing, or it is not.


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## Faceman

DancingArabian said:


> Ditto this. "You people" comes off as very condescending, hostile and just snarky.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry you take it that way, but that is your problem - not mine. A person can assign connotations to just about anything if they are so inclined. The word "shuffle" is offensive to many blacks when referring to blacks, but there are perfectly innocent ways to use the word. "Greasy" is offensive when referring to Italians or Mexicans, but it is not offensive to say hamburgers are greasy.

Why look for something that is not there and try to make something out of nothing?...


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## demonwolfmoon

Fort fireman said:


> I have a hard time understanding what it accomplished by throwing that statement at someone that is faithful and obviously using that faith to stay strong. Nothing like a kick to the ribs when someone is down.



erm, agreed!

I have my beliefs, others have theirs. My inner belief is that religion is a crutch, and one I dont need.

But dammit, others believe, and that poor soul, of all people, NEEDS that belief! If anything, it clearly gives her the strength to keep going.

IMHO, there is nothing to be gained by rudely attacking someones religious beliefs, and especially kicking someone when they're down. 

If she was someone who made you suffer greatly, thats one thing, but its stated that the sick woman is a "friend". As they say though..."with friends like these"!


----------



## Faceman

Saddlebag said:


> A week ago I had a chance encounter with an old friend at our medical clinic but she hastened away. Today I got the story. The night before she'd had a stroke and could see only light and dark. This woman over the past 10 years has been attacked by one form of cancer after another. The first in her shoulder, chemo and surgery. It returned a few years later. Knee surgery, cancer returned in her mouth, more chemo and surgery. Because the chemo steals calcium from the bones her lower back now requires shots of potent drugs and now the stroke. I asked her what else could be thrown at her. Her response was God was looking after her. I suggested perhaps he'd turned his back on her. She believed he'd give her only what she could handle that she needed to believe that.


Do you also pull the wings off of flies and kick puppies? This is a case where I hope whatever goes around comes around. As the saying goes, with friends like you...


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## demonwolfmoon

Faceman said:


> Do you also pull the wings off of flies and kick puppies? This is a case where I hope whatever goes around comes around. As the saying goes, with friends like you...


If westboro baptist is no more representative of the Christian Church

than the Taliban is of Islam

I hope that people understand that unkindnesses like The OP's comment to her friend are not representative of the majority of nonbelievers....


----------



## SouthernTrails

Saddlebag said:


> A week ago I had a chance encounter with an *old friend* at our medical clinic but she hastened away. Today I got the story. The night before she'd had a stroke and could see only light and dark. This woman over the past 10 years has been attacked by one form of cancer after another. The first in her shoulder, chemo and surgery. It returned a few years later. Knee surgery, cancer returned in her mouth, more chemo and surgery. Because the chemo steals calcium from the bones her lower back now requires shots of potent drugs and now the stroke. I asked her what else could be thrown at her. Her response was God was looking after her. I suggested perhaps he'd turned his back on her. She believed he'd give her only what she could handle that she needed to believe that.


Really?, I guess she could say; with friends like that, who needs enemies :-(

That was a very cruel thing to say to her.

.


----------



## Clayton Taffy

Saddlebag said:


> A week ago I had a chance encounter with an old friend at our medical clinic but she hastened away. Today I got the story. The night before she'd had a stroke and could see only light and dark. This woman over the past 10 years has been attacked by one form of cancer after another. The first in her shoulder, chemo and surgery. It returned a few years later. Knee surgery, cancer returned in her mouth, more chemo and surgery. Because the chemo steals calcium from the bones her lower back now requires shots of potent drugs and now the stroke. I asked her what else could be thrown at her. Her response was God was looking after her. I suggested perhaps he'd turned his back on her. She believed he'd give her only what she could handle that she needed to believe that.



*Yikes! * 

I don't know where you work , but I hope it isn't at "our medical clinic" where you might have to have some semblance of a bedside manner.


----------



## Faceman

demonwolfmoon said:


> flygap, I imagine a lot of women and infants DO die from unsanitary conditions and lack of healthcare.
> 
> actually, given the sheer number of believers, im sure the charitable contributions are greater.My one ex FB friend (unfriended for being an ignorant hateful thing) contributed to a lot of causes FINANCIALLY. She was big on anti slaughter, for example...but wouldnt get her hands dirty. Wasnt christ, for example, one who got down WITH the impoverished? I know Buddha was...
> 
> Anyway, I just went on a tangent, but there is more than one way to contribute, and im sure many of us do, though smaller in NUMBER, and without the religious GUILT. Though seeing how hateful human beings are, I help in small ways and encourage DD to do the same. Admittedly, I prefer rescuing animals, nursing wildlife over dropping money in a donation jar...
> 
> PS for the fiftieth time, not everyone needs religious guilt to try to live a moral life.
> 
> Though, I was once told by a Muslim coworker of my DH (we were arguing religion) that the inner voice that tells me stealing/lying etc is wrong...IS the voice of God.
> 
> *shrug*


Maybe I'm having a senior moment, but I don't quite understand your references to "religious guilt". Are you saying that religious people support charitable causes because of some kind of guilt associated with religion? I give a lot to charities - mostly out of compassion...possibly some guilt, but any guilt I feel is because I am blessed by health and wealth, while life for so many people in this world is such a daily struggle just to survive...I'm not sure I understand why someone would give to charity because their religion somehow made them feel guilty...


----------



## Clayton Taffy

demonwolfmoon said:


> If westboro baptist is no more representative of the Christian Church
> 
> than the Taliban is of Islam
> 
> I hope that people understand that unkindnesses like The OP's comment to her friend are not representative of the majority of nonbelievers....


I love this!! BUT how many of you, posting your faithless beliefs, are judging the entire Christian faith by your few encounters with, Bible thumping faith pushers.

Now, Redhorseridge, we can use the word *IRONIC*!


----------



## Faceman

demonwolfmoon said:


> If westboro baptist is no more representative of the Christian Church
> 
> than the Taliban is of Islam
> 
> I hope that people understand that unkindnesses like The OP's comment to her friend are not representative of the majority of nonbelievers....


No - I for one certainly don't believe all atheists or non-believers are like that...it takes a "special" person to be that crass, and it has nothing to do with religious belief or non-belief. I know a lot of non-believers, and none of them have so little compassion and humanity that they could say something like that to a woman in those circumstances...


----------



## demonwolfmoon

Faceman said:


> Maybe I'm having a senior moment, but I don't quite understand your references to "religious guilt". Are you saying that religious people support charitable causes because of some kind of guilt associated with religion? I give a lot to charities - mostly out of compassion...possibly some guilt, but any guilt I feel is because I am blessed by health and wealth, while life for so many people in this world is such a daily struggle just to survive...I'm not sure I understand why someone would give to charity because their religion somehow made them feel guilty...


I take it you're not catholic. :lol:

Mostly, what Im saying is this: I dont not steal because God is watching, and will know I sinned.

I dont donate to homeless shelters because I have been "blessed", and feel a religious obligation to share.

I dont rescue animals to be a good steward, and get in good with god.

I dont Not Kill because God hath commanded it, and I dont want to be damned for eternity.

Im sure I fornicated enough when I was younger. I dont feel guilty, I dont ask anyones forgiveness, and if I decided to commit adultery, fear of god wouldnt stop me. Nor the guilt that he was watching my "shame".

I dont do anything, or not do anything, because an otherworldly presence has commanded. I dont need that to decide that hurting people is bad.

PS, one of my ex bfs moms was a devout catholic. the church felt no shame hitting up a sick old woman for every bit of disposible income....and some nondisposible..that the old woman had. Too bad they felt no shame in causing their own some hardship. They knew she would give, every single time. :/


----------



## demonwolfmoon

Taffy Clayton said:


> I love this!! BUT how many of you, posting your faithless beliefs, are judging the entire Christian faith by your few encounters with, Bible thumping faith pushers.
> 
> Now, Redhorseridge, we can use the word *IRONIC*!


Not all Christians are Bible Thumping Faith Pushers.

Just the crazy ones.  We all know they yell the loudest.

(and unfortunately, its the squeaky wheel that gets the grease).


----------



## RedHorseRidge

First, I'd like to say we need to remember that when reading something on line, it may not come across as it was meant and I think we should find out first before we start slamming people and accusing them of pulling wings off bugs and kicking puppies.

Regarding Saddlebag: I see two, quite opposite situations where someone might say what she said. 

Scenario 1: I find out my friend is very ill and go talk to her. She is very religious; me, not so much. She talks about how god is looking after her. We have a very, very long talk about god. And she says she knows god is with her. I don't understand (no faith); how can someone who is so sick and has gone through so much still believe? So I ask how she knows... suggesting that perhaps god, for some reason, has actually turned his back on her.. how does she KNOW he is looking after her and has not forsaken her? I want to understand... so she explains that it's faith. And that god would never give anyone more than they can handle...

Scenario 2: I am talking to my very religious friend who has gone through all of this and she says god is looking after her and I reply "he's not doing a very god job now is he? Looks like he's turned his back on you..."

In the first scenario, I am trying to understand her faith and she witnesses to me. In the second, I'm a 100% A**hole.

I can see both of these (and anything in between) based on what Saddlebag said...


----------



## Faceman

demonwolfmoon said:


> I take it you're not catholic. :lol:
> 
> Mostly, what Im saying is this: I dont not steal because God is watching, and will know I sinned.
> 
> I dont donate to homeless shelters because I have been "blessed", and feel a religious obligation to share.
> 
> I dont rescue animals to be a good steward, and get in good with god.
> 
> I dont Not Kill because God hath commanded it, and I dont want to be damned for eternity.
> 
> Im sure I fornicated enough when I was younger. I dont feel guilty, I dont ask anyones forgiveness, and if I decided to commit adultery, fear of god wouldnt stop me. Nor the guilt that he was watching my "shame".
> 
> I dont do anything, or not do anything, because an otherworldly presence has commanded. I dont need that to decide that hurting people is bad.
> 
> PS, one of my ex bfs moms was a devout catholic. the church felt no shame hitting up a sick old woman for every bit of disposible income....and some nondisposible..that the old woman had. Too bad they felt no shame in causing their own some hardship. They knew she would give, every single time. :/


Mrs. Face is Catholic, but no, I'm just a plain old Presbyterian. I have to admit though that now that you have jogged my thoughts, Catholic teachings can tend to use guilt as leverage. Obviously Protestant ministers often leverage guilt to fill the collection plate, but I don't equate that with philanthropy/charitable giving independent from tithing...


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## MyBoyPuck

I was raised a Catholic. I can attest 100%, that particular religion is completely based in guilt and shame. When I was 5 freakin years old, I was in bible class while my parents were in church. I was the smartest kid in the class, could answer any Jesus question they threw at me. We were doing something that involved pencils and erasers. The erasers were these cool looking quarter sized round things. As a five year old, I thought it was the neatest thing ever. Even though I know God was watching, I pocketed the eraser on my way out. That stupid $1 eraser caused me so much guilt over the years as a kid, it was unbelievable. As I got older, each Sunday sitting in church listening to all the things that would **** us and send us to hell was utter BS. What kind of religion would lay all that on anyone, no less a child? My parents told me, once I was confirmed, I could make whatever decision I wanted. The second my confirmation party was over, I left organized religion behind. I find the whole concept of a god archaic. There is so much evidence of evolution right before our eyes and not one hint of a benevolent entity. I live my life as honorably as I can, and don't need a book or god to tell me to do so. I try to do the right thing because it's what you do. I'm am very spiritual and feel connected to other living things, but organized religion has no place in my life. I still have the eraser.


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## Faceman

MyBoyPuck said:


> I was raised a Catholic. I can attest 100%, that particular religion is completely based in guilt and shame. When I was 5 freakin years old, I was in bible class while my parents were in church. I was the smartest kid in the class, could answer any Jesus question they threw at me. We were doing something that involved pencils and erasers. The erasers were these cool looking quarter sized round things. As a five year old, I thought it was the neatest thing ever. Even though I know God was watching, I pocketed the eraser on my way out. That stupid $1 eraser caused me so much guilt over the years as a kid, it was unbelievable. As I got older, each Sunday sitting in church listening to all the things that would **** us and send us to hell was utter BS. What kind of religion would lay all that on anyone, no less a child? My parents told me, once I was confirmed, I could make whatever decision I wanted. The second my confirmation party was over, I left organized religion behind. I find the whole concept of a god archaic. There is so much evidence of evolution right before our eyes and not one hint of a benevolent entity. I live my life as honorably as I can, and don't need a book or god to tell me to do so. I try to do the right thing because it's what you do. I'm am very spiritual and feel connected to other living things, but organized religion has no place in my life. I still have the eraser.


Whenever I think of Catholic kids feeling guilty, I think of a funny incident when I was in the Army. I was a Chaplain's Assistant in the Army (as was my father ), and one day this "earthy" priest we had (he was a troop priest, but not a very good "family" priest) came in my office just shaking his head and cussing. He had just heard first confessions from some kids and one of them was guilt ridden and confessed that she had been chewing her lip or cheek and had swallowed some skin right before she took communion. Older Catholics will understand that and remember how rigid the Church used to be before a lot of the rules were relaxed, but this poor little girl had taken everything so literally and was really upset...


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## Faceman

While the topic of this thread is the intrusive nature of (some) Christians, I thought this story came at an appropriate time to illustrate the intrusive nature of (some) atheists. It works both ways, folks. This is really sad...

*Atheist group opposes Holocaust memorial on Ohio statehouse grounds*

By Cristina Corbin
Published July 25, 2013FoxNews.com











An atheist group believes the Holocaust memorial depicted above violates the separation of church and state. (daniel-libeskind.com)


A Wisconsin-based atheist group has expressed its opposition to a Holocaust memorial set to be built on the ground of the Ohio statehouse, arguing that its location violates the separation of church and state and calling the Star of David "exclusionary" in memorializing victims of the Nazis.
But Ohio Gov. John Kasich and proponents of the memorial say it will teach people about man's inhumanity to man and that, contrary to the atheists' claim, it will include all those killed by the Nazis -- including U.S. soldiers, ethnic and religious minorities, homosexuals and the mentally ill.
Joyce Garver Keller, executive director of Jewish Communities, an organization that represents Jewish groups across the state, said the memorial is intended "mostly to honor those who had survived and who had come to Ohio to build a life."
Keller said it is appropriate to build the structure on state grounds because it will "remind lawmakers and those who work in and around government of the important role and responsibility they have in speaking out in the face of hatred, anti-Semetism and genocide."
"The Holocaust did not begin in concentration camps in the ovens with smoke stacks and mass graves," Keller told FoxNews.com. "It began in the halls of government with the passage of laws that targeted Jews, taking their properties, their businesses, their home, their freedom and ultimately their lives.
Kasich first proposed the idea of a memorial during a May 4, 2011, annual Holocaust commemoration at the statehouse.
"We need to have remembrance in this statehouse," Kasich said at the time. "I’d call on the Jewish community, along with our brothers in faith, to develop some sort of a memorial that members of our legislature and members of the public, as they pass through this great rotunda, will be able to understand not just the history of a time when people wouldn’t stand, but the fact that it’s today we must stand against evil."
"Let’s construct something in this rotunda that can teach people about man’s inhumanity to man, best exemplified by what happened in the Holocaust," he said. 
The inscription planned for the memorial will read: "Inspired by the Ohio soldiers who were part of the American liberation and survivors who made Ohio their home. If you save one life, it is as if you have saved the world."
"In remembrance the six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust and millions more including prisoners of war, ethnic and religious minorities, homosexuals, the mentally ill, the disabled, and political dissidents were suffered under Nazi Germany."
The Jewish Star of David will be prominently featured at the site. 
Kellers and others call such a memorial "inclusive," while the Wisconsin-based Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) claims the memorial is discriminatory and has no place on government grounds.
"The Star of David is a religious symbol that is exclusionary," Dan Barker, a spokesman for the group, told FoxNews.com. "We’re not opposed to the memorial and we have sympathy for all the victims. We would probably give money to it if it were not on state grounds."
"A secular government is not supposed to have a religious endorsement," Barker continued. "I have Jewish heritage myself, but just because we like the religion and we're sympathetic to Holocaust survivors, doesn’t mean we should violate the precious American principle of separation between church and state."
Barker said the group expressed its opposition in a letter to the state, but has no plans to sue.
Approximately 11 million people perished in the Holocaust. Historians say at least 6 million Jews died at the hands of the Nazis, as did 1.9 million Polish civilians, mostly Christians. More than three million Soviet prisoners of war died and more than two million Soviet civilians, mostly Christians, were killed. More than one million Yugoslav civilians died and between 22,000 and 500,000 Gypsies were the victims of genocide, according to historical accounts. Approximately 70,000 men, women and children with mental and physical handicaps were murdered as well as an unknown number of political prisoners, resistance fighters, homosexuals and deportees.
According to Kasich's office, the memorial will sit 84 yards from a bronze inscription in front of the statehouse that reads: "With God, all things are possible." The American Civil Liberties Union had previously sued over that inscription and lost.





Read more: Atheist group opposes Holocaust memorial on Ohio statehouse grounds | Fox News


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## SouthernTrails

^^^^^

Maybe some atheists do not believe the holocaust happened either


.


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## HorseMom1025

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> ^^^^^
> 
> Maybe some atheists do not believe the holocaust happened either
> 
> 
> .


http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/holohoax.htm

And this goes both ways too. There are always people who want to believe conspiracy theories. They come from all beliefs (or lack thereof).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

Maybe these people should have spoken to someone like my father who as a very young man was in the (UK) Engineers Regiment attached to an American division and among the first to enter the concentration camp at Belsen
When they bulldozed bodies into mass graves they weren't always certain that some of them were dead as occasionally someone spotted movement and a living skeleton of a person was pulled out alive
He had nightmares about it for the rest of his life.
Many of the men who served in that war became atheists because they couldn't believe that a caring God could allow such a thing to happen. 
Events like that can move someone's faith in either direction.


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## Canterklutz

All my relatives are extremely religious people from different religions that all despise one another. I feel fortunate to be born from parents who are non-religious and have never pushed or forced a certain belief on us other than being a decent human being. I don't care whether someone is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, etc. as long as they keep it to themselves and their place of worship.


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## LadyDreamer

I had a customer at the movies the other night come in for a movie. His friend was late so he switched movie times. I spoke with him for a short while, and then he got a call saying his friend went to the wrong theater across town and he only had about 10 minutes to get there. I refunded his ticket and he walked out. A few seconds later, he ran back in "Oh! I forgot to tell you. God loves you and he has great plans for you!" While I do not consider myself a "Christian" and have my own ways of worshiping my god, that made me feel so good and sad at the same time. I know of many people who would not have taken his words with thanks. I know so many who would have laughed at him, or gotten all uppity and offended. There was absolutely no harm in those words. Religious in nature, but meant as encouragement and thanks. I was very appreciative.


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## Missy May

One of my good friends is jewish. We met in college. After we graduated and trying to be considerate, the first time I sent her a "holiday" card I sent her a pretty not to Christmassy card that was blank inside and used the word "holidays" in my message. I was then an atheist. She sent me a Christmas card.:wink: She thought it was funny that I had been careful not to send her a Christmas card - she didn't let my "religion" stop her.


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## Clayton Taffy

jaydee said:


> Many of the men who served in that war became atheists because they couldn't believe that a caring God could allow such a thing to happen.



Oh Please! Where do you get your facts,I use that word loosely?
God didn't carry out the holocaust, man did. 
There still is free choice in religion.

You didn't mention if any of the first responders, survivors or any members of victims families of 9-11 are now atheists.


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## jaydee

Taffy Clayton said:


> Oh Please! Where do you get your facts,I use that word loosely?
> God didn't carry out the holocaust, man did.
> There still is free choice in religion.
> 
> You didn't mention if any of the first responders, survivors or any members of victims families of 9-11 are now atheists.


 I worked for most of my later employment life in Social Services with the elderly and then as a manager in a care home where all of the residents and clients were of the age that they lived through WW2 and a large number of them had lost all faith in God. Only a small handful were ever interested in attending religious services, seeing local religious leaders or having a religious person with them in their last hours.
God may not have carried out the holocaust but to many people who had spent their lives thanking God every day in school, Church or Chapel for all the good things he bestowed on them it gave the idea in their heads that he had control of what happened - otherwise why thank him at all if it was 'pure luck'. With this in their minds they then could surely be excused for not understanding why he had no control over the bad things too. People form their own opinions - you or I have no control over that at all.
I've lost count of the number of times I've heard people say 'How can God allow this to happen?' 
People see things differently.
I cant possibly speak from a US point of view as I know nothing about religion here - other than it seems to have more interest than in the UK where most people have little to no interest in it all and for those that do attend Churches its more of a social club


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## Missy May

jaydee said:


> I worked for most of my later employment life in Social Services with the elderly and then as a manager in a care home where all of the residents and clients were of the age that they lived through WW2 and a large number of them had lost all faith in God. Only a small handful were ever interested in attending religious services, seeing local religious leaders or having a religious person with them in their last hours.
> God may not have carried out the holocaust but to many people who had spent their lives thanking God every day in school, Church or Chapel for all the good things he bestowed on them it gave the idea in their heads that he had control of what happened - otherwise why thank him at all if it was 'pure luck'. With this in their minds they then could surely be excused for not understanding why he had no control over the bad things too. People form their own opinions - you or I have no control over that at all.
> I've lost count of the number of times I've heard people say 'How can God allow this to happen?'
> People see things differently.
> I cant possibly speak from a US point of view as I know nothing about religion here - other than it seems to have more interest than in the UK where most people have little to no interest in it all and for those that do attend Churches its more of a social club


And, there were those like CS Lewis (WWI) that went the other way (atheist to religious). Far more people were eliminated in Russia and China than were in the holocaust. Note the policy on religion of both at the time. And, the holocaust didn't end b/c the Nazi's changed their minds - and it wasn't exclusively atheists that fought against the Nazis. The citizens of countries that replace religion with the "state", or where the government is religion (e.g., Iran) don't tend to fair to well in the end. It doesn't prove their is a god, but it does prove that when men take the role of god...it isn't pretty.

I wonder how anyone, mortal or God, can allow the wholesale slaughter of fellow creatures at the hands of man. My personal beliefs do not start and stop with welfare of humans. Is that just not comparable to genecide? It depends on your personal religion.


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## jaydee

Missy May said:


> And, there were those like CS Lewis (WWI) that went the other way (atheist to religious). Far more people were eliminated in Russia and China than were in the holocaust. Note the policy on religion of both at the time. And, the holocaust didn't end b/c the Nazi's changed their minds - and it wasn't exclusively atheists that fought against the Nazis. The citizens of countries that replace religion with the "state", or where the government is religion (e.g., Iran) don't tend to fair to well in the end. It doesn't prove their is a god, but it does prove that when men take the role of god...it isn't pretty.
> 
> I wonder how anyone, mortal or God, can allow the wholesale slaughter of fellow creatures at the hands of man. My personal beliefs do not start and stop with welfare of humans. Is that just not comparable to genecide? It depends on your personal religion.


If you read my original post I did say that traumatic experiences can go either way - it can push people towards God just as easily as it can push them away
At the time of WW1 & WW2 the majority of British people were Christians who attended Church or Chapel on a regular basis. They went to war believing it to be a worthy cause not to mindlessly kill people. Many were very young, raised on the Old Testament as much as the new and firmly believing that God was 'all powerful', he could produce plagues to kill the enemies of the righteous , divide the waters to allow for Moses to flee............they must have felt very abandoned out there when none of that happened
My own father who was raised in a deeply religious family where the Churches and Chapels were the focal point of village life and had been for generations never set foot in one again after the war other than what he called social events like weddings etc because he felt that the things the Church had taught him were misleading and led him to expect too much.
There is a view on God - that we are all here to do the best we can with what we are given, that God interferes in no way at all, he doesn't make good things or bad things happen but what he does give us is the courage & strength to cope with things when they do go wrong.


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## Missy May

jaydee said:


> If you read my original post I did say that traumatic experiences can go either way - it can push people towards God just as easily as it can push them away
> At the time of WW1 & WW2 the majority of British people were Christians who attended Church or Chapel on a regular basis. They went to war believing it to be a worthy cause not to mindlessly kill people. Many were very young, raised on the Old Testament as much as the new and firmly believing that God was 'all powerful', he could produce plagues to kill the enemies of the righteous , divide the waters to allow for Moses to flee............they must have felt very abandoned out there when none of that happened
> My own father who was raised in a deeply religious family where the Churches and Chapels were the focal point of village life and had been for generations never set foot in one again after the war other than what he called social events like weddings etc because he felt that the things the Church had taught him were misleading and led him to expect too much.
> There is a view on God - that we are all here to do the best we can with what we are given, that God interferes in no way at all, he doesn't make good things or bad things happen but what he does give us is the courage & strength to cope with things when they do go wrong.


Yes, I missed it. I didn't mean it in an argumentative way - just as point that it was not entirely one way. 
Aside from wars, which tend to have significant and lasting affects on populations for understandable reason including vegetarianism, it would appear that during the same years (WWI forward) the UK became increasingly socialistic. Having a rather long history of battles and invasions, the UK was no stranger to "war" prior to WWI. I will stop there b/c UK history would be (or most likely is) your strong suit, not mine.


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## jaydee

UK Socialism wasn't like Communism - still isn't. The UK is too fond and proud of its democracy and associated rights to ever go down that route. 
WW1 was about fighting for freedom. They could have saved a lot of lives and agony by forming an alliance with Hitler and had King Edward as a 'puppet king' but that would have meant bowing to a fascist dictator
Men (and women) returning from a war fought for King & Country, so many mourning lives lost and the devastation that had been caused by bombings were suddenly faced with the harsh reality that they couldn't afford decent healthcare, acceptable housing and still faced the horrors of the Workhouse system if they had no employment. They soon began to wonder what it had all been for.
It created an atmosphere of unrest that had the potential to turn really ugly
1945 saw the Labour Party (Socialist) that represented the working classes come into power and the advent of the NHS & Welfare State aimed at giving everyone a fair deal regardless of income status.
It was the brainchild of Aneurin Bevan, a politician who rose from a Welsh coal mining family. His statement below is what UK Socialism stood for and has nothing to do with religion - 
_The collective principle asserts that... no society can legitimately call itself civilised if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means._
_—Aneurin Bevan, In Place of Fear, p100_


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## Saddlebag

"With God, all things are possible." Now there's a statement that could get twisted about. If the state government is secular then why is that written there?


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## Missy May

Jaydee, I didn't mean I confused the two (communism and socialism). I just felt that "parameter" (increasing presence of socialism) should be mentioned in that "timeline". Whether brought about by labor party or journalism - most advanced nations eventually implement government assistance for the indigent. It does not necessarily require that socialism be part of the equation. However, the establishment of socialism _tends_ to see a decrease in religion.


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## jaydee

I can see where Socialism took away the reliance on the Church for charity - which many people relied on.
The decline in UK church going began in the 1950's and has steadily gone downhill ever since. Atheists and Agnostics only account for about one third of the population according to surveys but of the remainder even though people declare themselves to be Christian they don't actually attend church and have separated themselves from churches in general.
Interestingly an American Mormon we became friendly with when he and his wife were living in the UK and still keep in touch with (he and my husband shared a common interest in agriculture) said that the Christianity in purity would be socialism - where everyone had a completely equal share in everything regardless of what they did for a living
The Mormon Churches tithing system has similarities to the UK welfare system
The trend doesn't appear to be isolated to the UK though so not sure how much education plays a part in it with people seeing confusions in interpretations from different denominations and things they just cant accept any more as facts


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## Saddlebag

Atheists aren't tithed. One would think churches can't handle money as they are always asking for more, more, more. When our town set up a fenced area and garden plots, I paid for a few for someone who couldn't, plus money for seeds. To me that is directly helping someone, not putting money out and not knowing where it's going and maybe supporting a pretty nice lifestyle for the fat cat at the top.


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## Clayton Taffy

Saddlebag said:


> Atheists aren't tithed. One would think churches can't handle money as they are always asking for more, more, more. When our town set up a fenced area and garden plots, I paid for a few for someone who couldn't, plus money for seeds. To me that is directly helping someone, not putting money out and not knowing where it's going and maybe supporting a pretty nice lifestyle for the fat cat at the top.



Oh please, what do you think taxes are?
Are you going to be anti-Canadian too?
The logic just flew out the window.:wave:


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## DancingArabian

Taffy Clayton said:


> Oh please, what do you think taxes are?
> Are you going to be anti-Canadian too?
> The logic just flew out the window.:wave:



Taffy beat me to it!

It does admittedly make me reluctant to donate to charity when I have to involuntarily contribute to flawed tax-funded programs, hierarchies and shady politicians.

Everything comes with all these stupid fees these days. Just to get the registration paperwork for my trailer was $400!


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## Saddlebag

I can see at least part of what my taxes pay for. With the churches one sees very little to nothing as to where the money goes. Why do you think they are so popular AND they don't pay taxes, even on the property the building sits on which is a heresy.


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## Clayton Taffy

Come on Saddlebag? You really can't see where the money goes? 
I don't know about property taxes where you are, but I am relatively certain a church pays property taxes where I live.
Electricity, water, maintenance, publishing, salaries, schools, retirement, just to name a few of the big money items.
how do you think a church pays for itself without donations? 

Its just like a club, if you want to join the club, you pay your dues. You have no interest in joining this club, big deal, I don't really care, buy what is your point on bad mouthing this "club"? It makes you no better than the "Bible thumping, faith pushers" you dislike so much.


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## DancingArabian

And don't forget that clergy still have expenses. Food, medical bills, clothes, etc. 

Giving to the needy also is a never ending thing. Someone who needs food today will likely need it tomorrow, or perhaps health care or something else. If a person is in enough of a dire situation that they are relying on charity, that's not something that changes quickly or easily.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Faceman

Saddlebag said:


> I can see at least part of what my taxes pay for. With the churches one sees very little to nothing as to where the money goes.


That is just a bunch of bull. If you want to see where church money goes, look at their financial statements. Churches are required to have formal financial statements compiled. They aren't secret, you know. Here are the financial statements of the Episcopal Church, just as an example...look up whatever church you want...

http://www.episcopalchurch.org/site...s/dfms_12-31-2011_consolidates_statements.pdf

So you hate religion and hate churches - bully for you, but why not at least base your hatred on facts rather than ignorance...complain about how they spend their money if you desire - that is your choice, but don't say "one sees very little to nothing as to where the money goes", which is just ignorant prattle...


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## SouthernTrails

Saddlebag said:


> I can see at least part of what my taxes pay for. With the churches one sees very little to nothing as to where the money goes. Why do you think they are so popular AND they don't pay taxes, even on the property the building sits on which is a heresy.


When was the last time you were in a Church, the last time you helped at a Church that gave out money to homeless people, money so a stranger could buy gas to get to a job interview, were at the yearly Book Bag marathon where they gave away 250 book bags to needy children at the beginning of school, our the Church that once a month had a Free Lunch for a 100 people, or the Church that twice a week changed the oil in Single Mothers Cars or a Dozen or two other things like Community Helping Programs?

I am not talking about a Mega Church on TV, I am talking about the average small town church? The ones that make up 90% of American Churches. Yes, our books are free for inspection by any member, trust me no one on the Payroll make very much money at our Church or most others I have ever attended! 
And every penny is spent on helping someone in the community!

Every been on a Mission Trip that bring Medical Supplies to kids in 3rd world countries? I have, it is the most rewarding experience you will ever have!

How much does the ABC Atheist Group give the Community?, any Money?, any food?, any book bags to kids?, any time as in building a deck on someone's house ?, or Insulting an attic for someone who cannot afford it? or fixing a leaky roof of a single mother with 2 kids?

Please tell me what they do, I have it heard Zero, but that could be hearsay :wink:


.


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## Northernstar

You've just described what our tiny churches do here in the N Country! Small towns with big hearts


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## Missy May

jaydee said:


> I can see where Socialism took away the reliance on the Church for charity - which many people relied on.
> The decline in UK church going began in the 1950's and has steadily gone downhill ever since. Atheists and Agnostics only account for about one third of the population according to surveys but of the remainder even though people declare themselves to be Christian they don't actually attend church and have separated themselves from churches in general.
> Interestingly an American Mormon we became friendly with when he and his wife were living in the UK and still keep in touch with (he and my husband shared a common interest in agriculture) said that the Christianity in purity would be socialism - where everyone had a completely equal share in everything regardless of what they did for a living
> The Mormon Churches tithing system has similarities to the UK welfare system
> The trend doesn't appear to be isolated to the UK though so not sure how much education plays a part in it with people seeing confusions in interpretations from different denominations and things they just cant accept any more as facts


I am no fan of the mormon church, to put it mildly. I could write a book on why not, but I will refrain. Suffice it to say that I strongly believe in separation of church and state - and strong enforcement of it.

Again, communism or socialism _as practiced_ either see the complete removal of religion or the decline of it as well as the importance of the individual. The "state" is not a bunch of buildings, it is people. Notice that Stalin and Moa did not want for anything ... whilst sharing and sharing, alike. Freedom of religion was a direct threat to their dictatorships, and needless to say so was the "importance of the individual". When people in power (the state) dictate what "charities" earners will give their money/labor to - the takers generally hail the state (those in power), and those in power gain more power by an increase in the number of loyal dupes _and_ their _personal_ riches. It is a rather old formula. I do not personally believe that attending church is any sort of requirement to be religious. However, I have seen a lot of arguments that imply the greater the education level the greater the number of non-believers. I guess they excluded Israel. Either way, like I have stated before - I have met _many _atheists that "believe" in evolution but couldn't even begin to provide an "educated" explanation of the theory. But, I am sure they "feel" better educated than "something"....probably the religious.


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## demonwolfmoon

It's one thing to disagree with pushy religious people. It's also one thing to disagree with the concept of organized religion.

It's another thing to intentionally seek out everything that you can about them to find things that you hate or disagree with.

I don't have that kind of time on my hands, nor any desire to do so. Frankly, I don't see the point in it either.


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## tempest

I know this thread is old but I didn't feel like it would be worth making a new thread about.

I'm having some trouble with my family and I really need some advice on how to appropriately handle my situation. About 4 weeks ago, give or take a week, I finally told my parents, my siblings, and a good friend of mine that I do not believe in any higher deities. My family and my friends are all highly religious and they reacted exactly how I thought they would. My parents freaked out and would ask me questions but when I would try to answer they would yell at me to shut up. The yelling continued for about 10 minutes before I was actually able to tell them why I no longer believed. And then my parents called me some choice adjectives, which I normally have a thick skin for, that really hurt because even though I expected their reaction I had a slim glimmer of hope that they would be calm and rational about it. No, I hadn't raised my voice to them yet, I was surprisingly calm through it all.

As I suspected they accept my reason why, if they even heard me at all. And then they yelled at me some more and I finally lost it. I screamed back at my mom. I was raised on the notion that you never raise your voice to your parents so the fact that I did this meant that I was out of options. It shut her up. I'm thankful that they didn't kick me out of the house but now I'm beginning to regret ever telling them. I feel as though I should have just continued to lie to them.

My parents, while not being on my case about it constantly, are not going to let this go. They want me to talk to someone they approve of. It's as though they don't believe that I truly didn't try to keep believing, that I didn't ask lots of questions to large amounts of people. They make it seem like I just threw it all away without a second thought. They don't understand that I don't want to talk about my beliefs anymore. And yes, I'm talking about them now but I'm out of ideas on how to nicely tell them to leave me alone. I'm not being rude to my parents, I'm not criticizing their beliefs, I go about my day the exact same way that I have since I realized that I was no longer believed in any deities. I'm a live and let live kind of person. I will leave you and your beliefs alone as longs as those beliefs aren't going to cause you physical harm. I'm not asking for them to accept it, understand it (because I know that they never will be able to understand no matter how many times I explain it to them), or be happy about it but all I want them to do is to tolerate and respect my choices and beliefs the exact same way I do theirs. They constantly look at me with disappointment and sadness and I'm seriously looking in to finding some place else to live if they don't let me be.

And then my friend, a person who I've been friends with for 16 years, she wasn't happy when I told her but she was willing to let me be. That was until my mom talked to her a few days ago and told my friend the exact same thing that my family has told me and implied to me on a daily basis. That they are failures as parents, that they were the cause of this (despite me telling them that this has nothing to do with them), and that I'm hurting them and they only want what's best for me. That I'm a huge disappointment. And yes, I did tell her that I no longer wanted to talk about it. But she continued on, telling me nothing that I haven't already heard, been told, or figured out. I know where my friend and family is coming from and why they keep pushing the issue but I just want them to leave me alone. Next time one of them brings it up I'm going to tell them that the topic is closed for discussion with me. But what do I do if that doesn't work?

I'm sorry that was so long but I really need advice on how to politely tell them to leave me alone. Especially if my "closed for discussion" idea doesn't work. How did you all handle your family and friends when you told them?


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## Speed Racer

Why did you feel the need to tell them anything? You knew it was going to cause a major tempest and you still live with them, so what was your ultimate purpose in causing such upheaval in your family?

You get to make your own rules when you move out. When you're still living under the parental roof, you respect their beliefs even if you don't hold them. 

If you're at the age of majority, it's time to move out. Especially since you seem to feel your parents owe you some sort of respect for having beliefs that are anathema to everything they hold dear.

My parents and I didn't see eye to eye on a lot of things, but I moved away from home when I was 18 y/o. However, I also knew enough not to challenge them on their strongest beliefs. Keeping the peace with those you love is much more important than being 'right'.


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## squirrelfood

I have learned that not one of the local churches (and there are MANY; bible belt town) will give any help to anyone NOT of their congregation. Tried to get any one of them to help a homeless couple til they could get going again. NOTHING. Nada. NO way.


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## squirrelfood

Speed Racer said:


> Why did you feel the need to tell them anything? You knew it was going to cause a major tempest and you still live with them, so what was your ultimate purpose in causing such upheaval in your family?
> 
> You get to make your own rules when you move out. When you're still living under the parental roof, you respect their beliefs even if you don't hold them.
> 
> If you're at the age of majority, it's time to move out. Especially since you seem to feel your parents owe you some sort of respect for having beliefs that are anathema to everything they hold dear.
> 
> My parents and I didn't see eye to eye on a lot of things, but I moved away from home when I was 18 y/o. However, I also knew enough not to challenge them on their strongest beliefs. Keeping the peace with those you love is much more important than being 'right'.


How long would you prefer she live a lie? How christian is THAT?


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## squirrelfood

> But what do I do if that doesn't work?


Just walk away.


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## DancingArabian

I kind of agree with SR. It's really not most people's business what you believe in.

What's done is done. Now it's just a matter of how much effort you want to put into them accepting it. Trust me when I say it's probably going to be a topic of conversation for a while.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tempest

I'm not walking around flaunting my beliefs, SR. I don't talk about my beliefs at home on a regular basis. In fact, that was first time in five years that I've said anything about what I believe in that house. I'm being respectful to them despite not agreeing with their beliefs and I do think they owe the same respect back to me. I am working on moving out, but it's not as simple as me just packing up my possessions and leaving.

I told them because they were getting suspicious about my reluctance to partake in religious activities and they finally asked why. And this isn't about who is right or wrong. At least not for me. To them it might be.


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## Chokolate

I disagree, SR. Tempest does NOT have an obligation to her parents (or anyone, whether she lives with them or not) to believe what her parents believe and she does NOT have to lie about what she does believe to appease them. It sounds as though she kept very quiet about it until she was actually asked and then she calmly explained succinctly and moved on. Her parents have not moved on, which is what caused her to lose her temper a little. That her parents cannot accept their daughter's beliefs should not be her problem. You cannot force a person to believe what you want them to believe, and you cannot force them to participate in religious activities they don't want to participate in (that is the reason she told them in the first place).

I do agree that if you are old enough and have the means it may be time to really work on moving out and becoming more independent. If they want you to go talk to someone they trust, my first thought was do it and you can explain to someone a little further from the situation what's going on. That neutral person may be able to help you both come to a conclusion.


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## TwistedSerpent

I had to deal with almost the exact same thing, but I took a different route then you. I believed it as strongly as I believe in Santa - the older I got the more it didn't make sense to me and the more offensive being forced to attend and participate and promote it got.
I kept it all to myself though, I put on a mask and played nice and flat out lied and faked it when needed just to avoid the outcome, and honestly I regret it. I feel like I threw those minutes of my life away in order to keep others happy which goes fully against my own personal morals. I feel it fed other emotional issues I had growing up, feeling trapped and unable to express myself which forced me to end up down at the extreme end of things and leaving me pretty physically scarred up. Over all I wish I knew then what I knew now, I would of cared less about how my family felt, if they couldn't love me for who I was then parents or not I still need to live for myself.

Luckly love usually overcomes ingrained believes and statuses, its just a shock sometimes and in times of stress things are said that often weren't meant to from both sides. My advice would be to not back down on your believes, but not back down on your love either and give them a chance to see you're no different then before they knew as I'm sure they would ask for the same if they came with big news that you felt was life changing.

Now if they end up being the type of people who would rather disown, kick out, and shut off all ties with you then of course its much rougher, but you have to take it in a larger sense that that was the road you could of followed, and be thankful that you weren't afraid to keep an open mind and be willing to question everything in pursuit of what makes you truly happy.


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## TwistedSerpent

And as far as when they bring it up, I would kind of judge to see what kind of mood they're in, if you're feeling just a group of closed minds looking to push against you then defiantly be straight forward telling them your not going to talk about it at that time. If you feel they're asking with more of a willingness to learn then I see no reason to tell them that you don't want to follow a path you're not completely convinced about and you need your own time and space to come up with it without outside interference. I've found giving specific details as to why you dont believe it just shuts down their thinking side and makes them get defensive, but if you offer something a part of them can relate to they handle it much better. Unfortunately sometimes being a strong minded person who refuses to follow just because you're told to you have to take the higher and more tactful road if you wish to remain at peace with some people, along with having the responsibility of needing to make that choice.


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## Saddlebag

I was listening to a well educated historian on TED the other evening and he recommended that the history of religion and what is known of the origins of various religions came in to being. He'd like to see it taught the same as any history course. His thinking was that it would create more tolerance for the various religions and atheists. Southern, that 4% is inaccurate, it's more like 40%. To admit atheism often causes problems at work or school so most keep quiet about it. People began stepping away from the churches and religion in the 1960s. It was very strong post WW1 and WW2 as people tried to pull their lives back together as most people lost a family member. People didn't drive everywhere then so walking to church became the Sunday morning social activity.


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## Saddlebag

At the age of 72 my father became a chaplain for a large children's hospital in western Canada. There was nothing "religious" about his job, yet people seemed to draw strength from his words. He had an incredible command of the English language and was very skillful in how he used it. I always marvelled at how he could say so much in so few sentences.


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## .Delete.

Woop I just stumbled upon this thread at little late and I have to admit I only read the first post. 

One of my passions is religious history. I am fascinated by the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. Right now I am studying the first Crusade and I'm on my second book. Religion was the first form of government and I firmly believe that is still it's role today.

I grew up in an incredibly religious household and my father basically disowned me when I declared I was anti-religious. I'm not an atheist though, I am not anything. I study and analyze both sides of the theories and form my own opinion. I could talk about this stuff for hours. 

I even have a tattoo that expresses my religious beliefs. It's not a quote that originally directed towards religion but it fits how I feel perfectly. An the cross is a crusaders cross to represent the foundation of Christianity and how people often forget how horrific the Crusades actually were. 









When it comes to "bible thumpers" and people who like to shove it down other's throats. I actually don't mind them one bit. I admire their passion and I like to listen to them. The whole religious "thing" is incredibly fascinating to me. I have dated several boys who are religious and have gone to church with them an everything. I know there is a lot of good things that have come from religion as a whole. I do not knock it one bit, if that is what they choose to believe in then that is perfectly fine by me. 

What bothers me is the lack of education of what they are actually going around preaching about. So often people don't take the time to learn about things like the Crusades, Richard The Lion Heart, King James, etc who all played huge rolls in the creation of what Christianity is today. 

However like I said, I have tons of respect for people who are strong in their faith. I admire it so much because I have never been able to invest myself into something I cannot explain.


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## tempest

Saddlebag, I took a college course that talked about the most influential religions in the Middle East. It was set up like a history course. The professor was very unbiased. I loved that course because I was actually able to see the similarities and differences between the Middle Eastern religions. I too wish religion would be taught the same as a history course.

.Delete. I love your tattoo.

Thank-you, everyone who responded to my post. Thanks for the advice.


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## DancingArabian

Some schools do offer religion-history courses.

"Coming out" as a atheist really can have a negative impact on your life. Most people will shut down at certain words because of their own ignorance that they won't even bother to try to hear you out. Usually if someone asks me if I am Christian I say no and leave it at that. If pressed, I just say I'm an inverse Christian and if pressed further I say that most of Christian principles are sins in my faith (which is true) and I rarely get pressed farther than that and usually not even that far.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TwistedSerpent

I have respect for those who who have taken the time to learn, to ask questions, and do whatever it takes to find the perfect set of beliefs or simply just morals for themselves. I have a hard time giving that same respect and appreciation to someone who lets their whole lives revolve around something the really don't understand, something they don't know the history of or know why this is the way they do things other then that someone told them it was the only way; especially when it comes at a cost of loosing respect and love for family, friends - and even a hatred for people they don't know who have done nothing wrong in the world besides believing something even just slightly different them then, to the point where some take it to the extreme and are so strong in their faith they feel the need to harm others - verbally, emotionally, or physically.

But that's totally different then the wonderful people who are 100% happy in their lives and their faith who just want to share that happiness unbiased towards differences that everyone needs a little taste of in their lives as they can teach us all something.


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## DancingArabian

The hatred and anger is in part fear. Imagine building your whole life around something but then someone says or does something that strikes a chord with you but goes against what you've been doing your whole life. Most people just don't handle that well so go on the offensive.

Church doesn't teach about the Crusades or any of that history, therefore people don't know it. It's not considered to be a part of the religion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## squirrelfood

You don't have to be atheist to be non-christian. If you believe in ANYTHING, even just life, you are not actually an atheist.


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## MN Tigerstripes

I think it's less fear than some people just being geared towards having that sort of intolerant hateful type of personality. You can find people that act like that in all walks of life, all religions, atheists, so on and so forth. I'm a member on some science type pages where there is apparently large atheist population and the hateful comments that are posted towards anyone even remotely religious are astounding. You see it on all sorts of pages and walks of life.

Interestingly enough a friend and I were talking the other day about changes that should be made to the schooling system and one of the things that we were discussing was the addition of a class on the religions of the world. Not one aimed at converting or anything like that, but one that teaches the history and goes over the general point kind of thing. I took a "bible as literature" course in college and it was very interesting. 

Hopefully it's ok that I posted, I'm not an atheist, although I'm not terribly religious either and just finally got baptized at 33 years old last Sunday. :lol:


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## TwistedSerpent

Initial fear is expected and understandable, but to me is no excuse to cause harm to something totally undeserving. If more people chose to stop and look at the creature in front of them instead of automatically grabbing a shovel, they may see that even though its different it is not causing them any harm and is in fact beneficial with a place of its own in the world just like them.

Then you run into the types of people who use it as a form of a weapon or higher power. There is no fear in them.


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## DancingArabian

squirrelfood said:


> You don't have to be atheist to be non-christian. If you believe in ANYTHING, even just life, you are not actually an atheist.


Not quite. 

Theism is the belief that there is at least one deity that exists. Anyone that believes in at least one kind of god, regardless of their religion or even if they just believe and don't belong to a specific religion is a theist.

Therefore, atheism is the opposite - the belief that no deity or deities exist. 

An agnostic is someone who believes that it's impossible to know either way and won't pick a definite stance.

It's not just about believing in something. It's about whether or not you believe in something specific.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whisperbaby22

Seems like there's a lot of deep thinkers here.


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## MyBoyPuck

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Interestingly enough a friend and I were talking the other day about changes that should be made to the schooling system and one of the things that we were discussing was the addition of a class on the religions of the world. Not one aimed at converting or anything like that, but one that teaches the history and goes over the general point kind of thing. I took a "bible as literature" course in college and it was very interesting.
> 
> :lol:


Tigerstripes, I agree schools should have a class on religions, but a chapter touching on the key points and origin on each organized religion that exists. It will never happen since the students might actually start thinking for themselves and decide that the religion currently being rammed down their throats is complete BS, but it would be nice to offer an overall view of religions versus herding sheep toward only what we want them to think. 

I also took Bible as a book in college. It is an interesting read as a book and refreshing to be able to point out all the inconsistencies in it without fear of being burned at the stake.


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## jackboy

In mark 16:15 Jesus gave that great commission Go and preach the gospel to every creature. If a person has half a brain cell you can talk about your belief and not be mean or pushy. There are a lot of times when it's not just the right time. I am a Christian a minister I grew up in a very strict home and I'm glad I did it has taught me how to be a real man and responsibilities that we all have. There are those who try to be a witness for Christ and do nothing but turn people off because all they want to do is tell people your goin to hell if you don't do this and that and quit doing this. Jesus is about love if we as humans can truly show the love of Christ we'll never hurt no one feelings or be rude in any manner


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## DancingArabian

jackboy said:


> In mark 16:15 Jesus gave that great commission Go and preach the gospel to every creature. If a person has half a brain cell you can talk about your belief and not be mean or pushy. There are a lot of times when it's not just the right time. I am a Christian a minister I grew up in a very strict home and I'm glad I did it has taught me how to be a real man and responsibilities that we all have. There are those who try to be a witness for Christ and do nothing but turn people off because all they want to do is tell people your goin to hell if you don't do this and that and quit doing this. Jesus is about love if we as humans can truly show the love of Christ we'll never hurt no one feelings or be rude in any manner


I've yet to come across someone like this who wants to do more than give their talk about why their religion is amazing. They've only ever wanted to be agreed with and not have an actual discussion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TwistedSerpent

Everyone who I've come across who was willing to have an actual discussion has never been the type to come up to someone to try and convert them. Even if someone's intentions are good I'm offended when someone tries to tell me that my very personal beliefs and morels are wrong just because its different from theirs. Jesus may mean love to many people, but it's not the only way to love.


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## jackboy

That's very sad dancing then more than likely you've never got to meet a real Christian there are a lot of hypocrites out there. In Matt 7:21 Jesus tells these men not everyone who says lord lord are goin to enter in the kingdom and I'm afraid that statement is going to ring true to a lot of people when ther time comes. I love to make friends and I have a lot if someone don't see there need to live a Christian life at least we can be friends. Really when it comes down to it a man who has friends is genrally a happy person


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## TwistedSerpent

The best Christians I've meet never really preached to anyone, they knew their actions spoke much louder then any sermon or bible passage; as well as seeing that a good person is a good person no matter their beliefs, and there is no reason to hold those differences against them or think any less.


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## MyBoyPuck

What I don't get is, when did the phrase "keep it in church" go out of style? I'm sick of religion creeping into schools, politics, and every other crevice of society. Hell, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays had to change their name because it offended religious groups. Praying, preaching, quoting psalms, that all belongs in church where you worship your god. Not everyone believes in the same god, or any god at all. Freedom of religion also includes freedom from religion. Just ask the state of Rhode Island and Roger Williams. My mantra is and always will be, keep it in church.


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## Saddlebag

I don't understand the importance of a belief that heaven waits for believers. If heaven is the place many Christians would have us believe, then why don't they end their lives and be done with their earthly existence? I know when I die I'll become dirt and that's ok by me.


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## MyBoyPuck

Saddlebag said:


> I don't understand the importance of a belief that heaven waits for believers. If heaven is the place many Christians would have us believe, then why don't they end their lives and be done with their earthly existence? I know when I die I'll become dirt and that's ok by me.


See how it works is, they are not allowed to kill themselves. That's a sin. They have to wait for their god to kill them, but he doesn't do that until they have earned enough sky miles to get into heaven. That being said, killing isn't allowed either via the 5th commandment, so why their god gets to kill them despite him being so against it is beyond me.


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## .Delete.

MyBoyPuck said:


> See how it works is, they are not allowed to kill themselves. That's a sin. They have to wait for their god to kill them, but he doesn't do that until they have earned enough sky miles to get into heaven. That being said, killing isn't allowed either via the 5th commandment, so why their god gets to kill them despite him being so against it is beyond me.


Because he is god and the only one allowed to make this judgement.

However it's said that we are created in his image. So it's a "do as I say, not as I do" type deal.


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## DancingArabian

jackboy said:


> That's very sad dancing then more than likely you've never got to meet a real Christian there are a lot of hypocrites out there. In Matt 7:21 Jesus tells these men not everyone who says lord lord are goin to enter in the kingdom and I'm afraid that statement is going to ring true to a lot of people when ther time comes. I love to make friends and I have a lot if someone don't see there need to live a Christian life at least we can be friends. Really when it comes down to it a man who has friends is genrally a happy person


I don't discern between "real" Christians and "fake" Christians. The Bible is a book subject to interpretation by everyone that reads it - there is no one hard interpretation of it. If there was, I doubt we'd have so many denominations of Christianity or so many opinions on what being a Christian involves.


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## TwistedSerpent

Not to mention how much of it has been lost or twisted in the centuries of translation as well as the different interpretations different eyes take on its passages.


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## MyBoyPuck

.Delete. said:


> Because he is god and the only one allowed to make this judgement.
> 
> However it's said that we are created in his image. So it's a "do as I say, not as I do" type deal.


I know the deal. I was raised a Catholic. Live you whole life trying to please a deity and don't question the bible or else you won't get into heaven.


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## .Delete.

DancingArabian said:


> I don't discern between "real" Christians and "fake" Christians. The Bible is a book subject to interpretation by everyone that reads it - there is no one hard interpretation of it. If there was, I doubt we'd have so many denominations of Christianity or so many opinions on what being a Christian involves.


To build on that. The Christianity that is popular today and the modern bible is an interpretation originating from King James. So really, modern beliefs are just an aftermath of a manipulative king.


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## .Delete.

MyBoyPuck said:


> I know the deal. I was raised a Catholic. Live you whole life trying to please a deity and don't question the bible or else you won't get into heaven.


& go to church once, or twice a week to be lectured on how awful of a person you are. An if you don't repent, you're going to hell because you're a bad sinful person.


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## MyBoyPuck

.Delete. said:


> & go to church once, or twice a week to be lectured on how awful of a person you are. An if you don't repent, you're going to hell because you're a bad sinful person.


Come for the mass. Stay for the guilt.


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## DancingArabian

.Delete. said:


> To build on that. The Christianity that is popular today and the modern bible is an interpretation originating from King James. So really, modern beliefs are just an aftermath of a manipulative king.


It goes beyond that.

The King James is just an interpretation in translation. If you discuss passages with people, you will often get different interpretations on individual passages themselves.

Look at how many denominations of Christianity there are. They're all using the same Bible, but they've all got their own views.


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## Canterklutz

IMHO, people pushing their religion on me is just as uncomfortable and unsolicited as someone spewing their sexual rituals to me. 

If it brings meaning to your life, makes you feel fulfilled, floats your boat that's nice and all. 

But I really don't want to hear about it. :-|


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## Chokolate

The other day I was coming home from school and at the train station, I saw a group of women attempting to _hand out leaflets to school children_. This REALLY irked me for several reasons, but the main issue I have with it more than other kind of religious pushiness was that they were handing it to impressionable children - mostly avoiding the teens - when their parents weren't there to stop them or explain what was going on! It was manipulative and almost creepy! 

She didn't try to give one to me because I put on my 'don't mess with me' face but she did send me a very fixed smile and sort of shook one in my direction, which I ignored. Argh. I can't stand that kind of thing.

I must say though that not all of them are like that. I go to a Christian school, owned by the church, and in RE (religious education) we not only learn about Christianity but ethics, morals, and other religions. We just completed our half-yearly on the basic principles and meaning of Judaism and are now beginning Islam. I thoroughly agree with that kind of religious education!


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## MN Tigerstripes

Reading all of your responses makes me really glad I am not a normal churchgoer! I won't say I have never heard the church leader talk the way you all describe nor have ever encountered a Christian who was anything but. That was my big reason to not hey baptized for so long. Recently I realized that, much like me, they are just people. They're good, they are bad, and everything in between. Some of them are total jerks and others would give the shirt off your back. I was the one putting this expectation on Christians that they should be better people failing to realize that they are JUST people.


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## DancingArabian

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Reading all of your responses makes me really glad I am not a normal churchgoer! I won't say I have never heard the church leader talk the way you all describe nor have ever encountered a Christian who was anything but. That was my big reason to not hey baptized for so long. Recently I realized that, much like me, they are just people. They're good, they are bad, and everything in between. Some of them are total jerks and others would give the shirt off your back. I was the one putting this expectation on Christians that they should be better people failing to realize that they are JUST people.


I have to disagree.

When someone chants and preaches and bemoans against certain behaviors, then the same day goes and engages in those behaviors themselves - who is setting the bar here? If I hear a preacher go on and on and on about why strip clubs are bad, that sets the expectation that he of all people wouldn't be caught dead there, yet it happens! If I hear a preacher/priest talk about how humility and modesty are awesome and good things, yet to find out they're stealing from the till or taking 6-figure salaries from the church - who is setting the bar here?

If someone preaches something, the act of preaching it puts it on the preacher to set the example and act on it.

Yes Christians are just people. However, preachy Christians need to realize that you need to practice what you preach, otherwise what you're preaching is junk.

IOW - I don't see it as MY failing to hold someone to the standards they're telling me are the good and holy standards to uphold.


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## .Delete.

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Reading all of your responses makes me really glad I am not a normal churchgoer! I won't say I have never heard the church leader talk the way you all describe nor have ever encountered a Christian who was anything but. That was my big reason to not hey baptized for so long. Recently I realized that, much like me, they are just people. They're good, they are bad, and everything in between. Some of them are total jerks and others would give the shirt off your back. I was the one putting this expectation on Christians that they should be better people failing to realize that they are JUST people.


I have to agree with at the end of the day they are just people. We all can agree humans as a whole are corrupt. 

It's a fact that religion was created by people, the bible was wrote by people, religious standards are set by people. Without people there would be no "god" to worship. Church, to me, is a place you go once a week where you're taught how to live your life better. Because you're a bad person who sins and is going to hell if you don't live your life according to god. Who was created by people. Enforced by people. So in my eyes, religion is a giant manipulation manifested over hundreds of years of people. 

But that is just me. I admire your faith MN, however you wish to conduct it. Like I said faith can be a very good thing, and has been for millions of people. Right now the good outweighs the bad. Whether or not it's foundation is build upon genocide of "pagans", it's evolved into something positive for so many people. Even tho I'm not religious, I fully support it.

Yes there is corrupt people in religion. There is corrupt people in rabbit breeding for christ's sake. Unfortunately it's something we have to deal with in ever aspect of life.


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## MN Tigerstripes

Dancing, I don't disagree with you at all. However, they aren't bad people BECAUSE they are Christians, they're just plain bad people. Their religion isn't going to make them good or bad. Sure, they'll pretend all day long that they are the most amazing and they'll flail others with how terrible they are, but that is a personality flaw, not a flaw in the religion in question. Like Delete said they are corrupt people. Sure they "represent" their religion, but it's in the same way Big Lick trainers(or any trainer like that) represent horse people. I've met several of those people in my lifetime and they were a huge part of the reason I have stayed away from churches. 

Delete - I agree with just about everything you said too, with one exception. "Without people there would be no "god" to worship." To me, God is not religion, He is not church, or the bible, or the worship. He's (and I don't even think that he is "male" per se, it's just easier for me to say it like that) so far beyond all of that stuff it's incomparable. In my opinion, religion is what humans use to try and make God comprehensible to their minds.

You can probably imagine the fun conversations I've had with some of my very religious friends. :lol: Actually, for the most part they are very willing to discuss their religion and they aren't generally jerks about it, but they do have their bad days, just like me, where they get a little preachy and judgmental. 

I appreciate the discussion with you guys too. I am one of those really awful people that LOVES to talk about this stuff. :lol: Not in a preachy way, my faith is my own and I have no interest in converting anyone, heck if I did I'd probably have better luck just being a decent, understanding, and compassionate person, but in a "I find this really interesting" way.


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## bkylem

Pretty simple to me.

Belief is a personal thing and doesn't need to be shared with anyone. I don't mind talking about it, but only if asked and I feel like the person in sincere. The word belief is fairly straightforward in that you either do or you don't. I think to try to persuade someone otherwise is a bit foolish and also fruitless. If they try to convince you or convert you, just quietly walk away. You are basically removing the audience they so desperately need. Smile and walk away. You will feel better. I promise.


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## Katz1411

All you really have to do is look at the title of this thread, then look at how quickly, and how very predictably, believers jumped in. I can't imagine circumstances in which i would reply in a thread titled "any baptists within this group" or similar.


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## alexischristina

Bkylem, I don't think belief is so straightforward as 'you do or you don't'. I used to call myself irrevocably atheist, but after Philosophy classes, Psychology classes, even Biology classes I've decided agnostic is a little more fitting. I don't know that I believe, because you can't prove either way that higher power does or does not exist. I don't believe in organized religion, I think it's a social structure that has done and is doing far more harm than good. But that doesn't mean I don't support a person's right to choose what they do and don't 'believe' in. Where it stops being okay, to me, is when religion is fed to children outside of their own homes (school, media, etc.), and when religion is pushed on others, when it infiltrates ANY other institution (school, government, etc.) that isn't private, and when it detracts from the rights of others. As I've become more open-minded I've decided not to take offence (as I used to) to people bringing up their religion, talking about their religion, using their religion to console other people, etc. and what it took was for me to look at things at a more basic human level. For somebody to say they're _praying_ for me (outside of prayers for change, that is :wink doesn't actually have very much to do with religion. What it has to do with is that PERSON on an individual level doing what they think at the bottom of their heart will help, it's incredibly meaningful. Unfortunately, because it's tied to religion, there tends to be a very strong bitterness about it. 

There will always be extremists, which is a large part of the reason I'm against organized-religion (although I acknowledge extremists exist outside of any one organized religion), and I am still vehemently against them, but since the first time I've posted on this thread I've had a bit of a change of heart :lol:


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## Cielo Notturno

Atheist here. I don't have much experience with religious people being rude, other than JWs ringing at the door and trying to leave their leaflets. 

I usually avoid the topic though; my non-belief is a belief in itself, and I don't want to be insulting and belittle other people own believes. 
Especially since I recognize that religion helps many people with everyday life, it gives them strength and hope during hard times. It would be awful of me to tell them that in my opinion they are fooling themselves. If they are happy this way, who am I to be mean about it? 

Anyway, I couldn't marry a very religious man. Being respectful with friends and random barely known people is one thing, sharing everyday life (and possibly raise children) is another. 

I'm already having small disagreements with my mom since I told her that, when I'll marry, I don't want to marry in church (which is a _huge_ tradition here). The reason is not that I hate religion and don't want to have anything to do with it; but going there and making promises "in front of God", when I think that there is no god, would be very disrespectful towards the priest who believes in it. I was already baptized when I was too young to have an opinion about it, and had the first communion when I was still young enough to just do it because I was told to. I think that it's more than enough.


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## Katz1411

"Where it stops being okay, to me, is when religion is fed to children outside of their own homes (school, media, etc.), and when religion is pushed on others, when it infiltrates ANY other institution (school, government, etc.) "


If someone wants a religion-based education for ther children, there is no lack of church schools out there, or they can home school. Public schools are just that - public, for everyone, of any or no religion. But that's not enough for some believers, they want everyone taught in their specific belief system, they want books banned that they don't approve of, creationism taught as science, organized prayer to their deity, etc. 

Some also want to ring your doorbell at any hour, trespass and break the laws under the guise of "religious freedom". They want tax breaks and incentives for their own brand of fundamentalism ::cough cough creation 'museum' cough::
When we lived in KY I had a "no preaching" sticker on the window next to the door and there were posted 'no soliciting' signs in the neighborhood but it never stopped the JW's and Mormons, I think they saw it as a challenge.


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## Speed Racer

Katz1411 said:


> All you really have to do is look at the title of this thread, then look at how quickly, and how very predictably, believers jumped in. I can't imagine circumstances in which i would reply in a thread titled "any baptists within this group" or similar.


It's an open board, and posters are free to discuss the topic whether or not they're believers. If all you want is agreement from like minded people, maybe starting a blog or closed group is a better idea.

I've often seen Christian-based threads inundated by nonbelievers, so the blade is double edged. 

Believe or not believe, as your conscience dictates. Living a moral life should be everyone's goal, regardless of their spirituality or lack thereof.


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## Endiku

I only read the last few pages out of curiosity, so forgive me if I'm missing something here.

I am fairly certain that most of you realize that I am a Christian by now...my denomination does not matter in my opinion... from previous threads, so maybe I'm unwelcome here.

However, I'm utterly confused about what a few of you are saying, beginning with Saddlebag's comment,


saddlebag said:


> I don't understand the importance of a belief that heaven waits for believers. If heaven is the place many Christians would have us believe, then why don't they end their lives and be done with their earthly existence? I know when I die I'll become dirt and that's ok by me.


Yes, heaven waits for those of us who are believers in Christ, but we don't "just end our lives" for a large variety of reason. I'm actually kind of horrified by your statement. Surely you don't believe all of us are that selfish or petty? We aren't just so 'holy above holy' that we WISH we could just die and go to heaven, but don't because we're not _allowed to._ In fact we live in freedom, and if we want to kill ourselves, just like you can kill yourself, so can we. There are consequences, but that doesn't condemn us to hell- although that is a popular myth. Salvation, remember, is a gift. You can not un-earn a gift by doing something bad. That doesn't mean it is right to do it though.

Some of those reasons that we stick around thought, are that we _are_ called to 'advance' or 'share gospel. However, it actually isn't our job to 'convert' anyone because I think you will all agree with me when I say that you have independent minds and choices, and it is 100% entirely up to YOU what you do. We are also called to glorify God, who is our creator, and take care of each other- Christian or otherwise.

We do not earn entrance into heaven. As I said, it is a gift. Good deed are to be done for his glory as we try to be more like him, but they aren't _required_.

I'll stop trying to correct your beliefs about our beliefs now, and get to the point I actually came here to make.

Like I said, Endiku = a Christian. Not one like any of the ones you guys seem to be describing...I work very hard to "walk what I talk" and I, also, see a big problem with hippocracy...everywhere. Not just church and not just outside of it.

I'm not incredibly verbal about my faith. If you ask me, you'd better believe that I'm going to tell you about my faith, but I am otherwise more of an observer. I do not tell people they will go to hell after meeting them and finding out that they aren't Christians, and I NEVER lower myself enough to make fun of unbelievers. However I do realize that their are Christians who do these things.

But you know what else I've found out? Athiests are a big culprit when it comes to this too, but because they're 'not religious' they seem to get less flack for it. I have a History Professor at my college who, from the moment he opened his mouth, obviously had something against Christians and the idea of God. He is snarky, condescending, and cruel in the words that he says towards Christians. He constantly makes fun of us and of God, pretending to apologize to a 'fake god in the pie in the sky' when he curses or says something crude about us, lifting his hands up and rolling his eyes back. When he realized that I was a Christian (and note that I had stayed silent and endured this for 3 weeks before this incident) after directly asking me "well YOU don't believe in this crap do you?!", he turned all of his comments to me, constantly belittling my faith and making the other student laugh. I'm only a month into classes now and feel like I only go in there to be demeaned.

But no one really mentions that or cares, because he isn't religious. Freedom of speech, right? It's ok to say terrible things about my religion, try to quote my bible (by the way he says everything completely wrong, from a different religion that he has mixed up, or out of context), and make me sound stupid for believing what I do, because he isn't push a BELIEF on anything. Except for maybe one that I am a ridiculous person who believes in fairy tales.

Turns out there are a lot of people like that. I know of at least 4 others who use personal attacks and sarcasm to argue with believers, instead of real facts. Isn't this exactly the same thing that you guys complain that we do?

But you aren't associated with them, you might say. Not all athiests are that way. In fact many aren't. Most are quiet about their lack of belief. 

It is EXACTLY the same with us. We have good and bad, loud and quiet, cruel and kind. I feel like this is really a "pot meet kettle" type of topic.


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## gingerscout

I am an athiest as well..it does NOT go over well for my religious family, also that we haven't had our daughter baptised is another thing they don't like, but I feel it's my choice, I don't force my beliefs on anyone, and I don't like people trying to convert me back ( which most of my family does all the time). I tell them that when I die, I have about 10 people I am going to haunt the krud out of, because of the krud they gave me in life, which usually makes them be quiet:lol:


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## Katz1411

Speed Racer said:


> It's an open board, and posters are free to discuss the topic whether or not they're believers. If all you want is agreement from like minded people, maybe starting a blog or closed group is a better idea.
> 
> I've often seen Christian-based threads inundated by nonbelievers, so the blade is double edged.
> 
> Believe or not believe, as your conscience dictates. Living a moral life should be everyone's goal, regardless of their spirituality or lack thereof.


:::shrug::: You'll never see me on christian based threads, I simply have no interest. And the title asked about other atheists here, not for debate. Of course anyone can post anything anywhere here, and so I'm equally free to point out how indicative it is that christians just had to jump in.


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## Speed Racer

I'm not certain why this whole discussion was dragged back up from the dead thread depths, anyway.

I don't care what your belief system is but you don't get to point fingers and say, 'JUST as expected, dang Christians mucking up where they're not wanted!', when the shoe fits everyone else equally as well regardless of their convictions.

Pretty obvious you didn't actually READ the original post, as it was asking _about_ religious people.


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## Saddlebag

"In God we Trust" came many years after the constitution was written. It should be removed because there are so many religions with differing beliefs.


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## jaydee

Agnostic seems to be the best route when you have doubts
So many holes and inconsistencies in the evolution theories and in religious writings that I find it hard to believe in either without some major doubts


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## Speed Racer

It should be removed from what, US money? It has been, several times, and reinstated several times as well.


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## Katz1411

Speed Racer said:


> I'm not certain why this whole discussion was dragged back up from the dead thread depths, anyway.
> 
> I don't care what your belief system is but you don't get to point fingers and say, 'JUST as expected, dang Christians mucking up where they're not wanted!', when the shoe fits everyone else equally as well regardless of their convictions.
> 
> Pretty obvious you didn't actually READ the original post, as it was asking _about_ religious people.


Nice try but I did read it, and comprehended it very well. You might want to look again.
It specifically asked how atheists here deal with religious people attempting to force their beliefs. So yes, I very well do get to point fingers, if I so desire.


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## Canterklutz

I never really understood why Christians worship the cross and wear it as bling. It's pretty much like worshiping and wearing a gun, noose, or an electric chair around your neck. Especially when people have crucifixes in their houses, its kinda like putting on display someone with a gun pressed up against the side of their head. :-| Before someone argues "But the cross is the symbol of Jesus' sacrifice!" we honor the memories of people like JFK and MLK jr. by the impact on society they have made not by worshiping the guns that killed them. The cross wasn't even the symbol of Christianity until the Crusades and before that it was represented by the fish and boat which commemorated his life and teachings. I have met Christian scholars who also share this same sentiment and describe modern Christianity's obsession with an object of violence as "wiping their butts with Jesus' teachings of pacifism" (Their word not mine! :lol. I guess Jesus' words of beating swords into plowshares= being obsessed with your gun.


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## jaydee

The Jehovah's Witnesses and the 'Mormons' don't regard the cross as a religious symbol for that reason. No crosses to be seen in their places of worship


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## Canterklutz

Ya I've seen some Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, etc. refuse to acknowledge it as a symbol too.


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## GallopingGuitarist

I was raised independent Baptist, gone home churching, home schooling, gone mennonite. We looked much like the Duggars from 19 kids and counting. 
I left when I was almost 20 years old. 
I am now quite agnostic. I hate how I used to think I was above everyone else who wasn't exactly like me. I feel sorry for my family who still acts and believes this way. They snub me and look down on me because I cut my hair, I have a tattoo, I wear pants, and worst of all I am living out from under a man's rule. I haven't even bothered to tell them that I am agnostic because they are already praying for me to 'get right with the lord'. 

Funny thing, I was at a movie theatre and ended up getting witnessed to and prayed over by a pushy pastor's daughter that had just watched Heaven is for real.... It gave me a look at how I had been in attitude (I never have prayed over anyone as I was too shy for that). 

I am too nice to tell someone off. I usually listen politely and hope they don't ever come back. Thankfully where I live the JWs don't come around knocking on doors so I'm lucky there. 

The ones I have to deal with pushing religion on me is my parents, brothers and sisters, grandparents and aunts and uncles. 
Thankfully I have one sister that is the same as I am so I have at least one person to talk it over with.


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## whisperbaby22

What holes and inconsistencies in evolution theory are you referring to?


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## squirrelfood

Canterklutz said:


> I never really understood why Christians worship the cross and wear it as bling. It's pretty much like worshiping and wearing a gun, noose, or an electric chair around your neck. Especially when people have crucifixes in their houses, its kinda like putting on display someone with a gun pressed up against the side of their head. :-| Before someone argues "But the cross is the symbol of Jesus' sacrifice!" we honor the memories of people like JFK and MLK jr. by the impact on society they have made not by worshiping the guns that killed them. The cross wasn't even the symbol of Christianity until the Crusades and before that it was represented by the fish and boat which commemorated his life and teachings. I have met Christian scholars who also share this same sentiment and describe modern Christianity's obsession with an object of violence as "wiping their butts with Jesus' teachings of pacifism" (Their word not mine! :lol. I guess Jesus' words of beating swords into plowshares= being obsessed with your gun.


Dharma. It's the Way.:thumbsup:


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## jaydee

whisperbaby22 said:


> What holes and inconsistencies in evolution theory are you referring to?


The fossil evidence is understandably so scant that there are many missing links in the chains for a start
Even the 'experts' often disagree on key issues and the more scientific methods improve the more is learnt and often that new knowledge contradicts existing 'facts'


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## whisperbaby22

I'm not arguing, I would just say that new knowledge adds to and complements existing "theories".


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## jaydee

Sometimes it does and sometimes it completely blows a theory out of the window
At one time all dinosaurs were believed to be 'reptilian' and now they know many of them are more closely related to birds


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## whisperbaby22

To my way of thinking I believe we just gain better understanding of what we are seeing.


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## Saddlebag

In Canada, a woman has challenged a ruling made in 1996 about religion remaining out of schools and public buildings. She was on city council and felt quite uncomfortable when the Lord's Prayer was spoken. She has sued the city for not adhering to the ruling but she is willing to wait as this will soon be challenged in the Supreme Court, about mid October. I don't have a problem with the Lord's Prayer as long as all religions in attendance get their turn. And then the Atheists get to have their turn with silence. Prayer was originally not about speaking words aloud to a deity, but having times of silence and reflection, a looking inward.


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## squirrelfood

Agreed. There are MANY people in the US and Canada who do NOT believe in the bible or the lords prayer. What right do the rest of you have to keep shoving such in our faces?


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## RegularJoe

jaydee said:


> At one time all dinosaurs were believed to be 'reptilian' and now they know many of them are more closely related to birds


Well, that's the beauty of science. Our understanding changes as new evidence is discovered. Religion could take a lesson from that. It took the Catholic church four centuries to admit Galileo was right.

To address the original post, when I get people at my door proselytizing, I'm always tempted to quote Jack Nicholson in _As Good As It Gets_: 


> *Melvin Udall*: Sell crazy someplace else. We're all stocked up here.


Alas, I never quite have it in me to be that direct, but I've gotten awfully brief. I answer the door and say "Hi, I'm not interested. Have a nice day." Then I just shut the door. 

If they think I'm rude, I don't care. They just interrupted whatever it was I was doing. Plus, I figure I'm saving them time they would waste talking to someone who has zero likelihood of believing anything they say.


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## jaydee

When you go back to the first impressions our early primitive ancestors made on their landscape they had an overwhelming need to believe in something that was superior to them and a need to worship whatever it was.


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## squirrelfood

One would hope we, as a race, would have grown by now.


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## jaydee

I don't think we ever will - its part of that need to always have something to blame for things rather than realize that bad stuff sometimes just happens
Its like the 'Why me?' question
I try to think - 'Why not me'
The problem I always see is that when you're conditioned to thank a god of some form for the good things who do you blame for the bad ones?


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## squirrelfood

I prefer to blame whomever or whatever was truly responsible; often that is ME.


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## alexischristina

> I'm not arguing, I would just say that new knowledge adds to and complements existing "theories".


The beauty of science is that we're always adding new information- that doesn't mean it complements anything. One of the strongest points ABOUT science is that everything is 'falsifiable'. If they can't be proven wrong, they don't try to prove something right. That's why no reputable scientific organization will try to disprove there is no God. Creationism is one thing- because there are strong theories supporting evolution, but they cannot disprove the existence of _a _God so it's not a question that is dealt with scientifically.



> the problem I always see is that when you're conditioned to thank a god of some form for the good things who do you blame for the bad ones?


I agree with you, Jaydee and I think another big one is blaming God FOR the good things. So many times I've seen someone thanking God for giving them the strength to do 'x' or for giving them 'y' that has made their life better and, in doing so, discredited themselves or somebody else.


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## jaydee

Someone once used statistical analysis to prove that storks really do deliver babies


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## squirrelfood

Far too many people do bad things then want to claim "the debbil made me do it" and refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. It's a childish thing to blame or commend a "something" for your own actions. Its like having a childhood imaginary friend.


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## clumsychelsea

squirrelfood said:


> Agreed. There are MANY people in the US and Canada who do NOT believe in the bible or the lords prayer. What right do the rest of you have to keep shoving such in our faces?


I'm not on anybody's side here because I really don't have an opinion either way, but to be a devil's advocate (pardon the pun), people of devout religion could argue the same thing. Being silenced because of other peoples lack of belief is as upsetting to them as having religion present among people who are athiest, etc. I don't think there's any solution to make everyone happy.


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## squirrelfood

I don't expect you to be silent. I DO expect you to leave me the heck alone about it because I'm not interested. WHY do you get such a kick from forcing your religion on those who don't agree with it? I'm not forcing mine on you, or I'd be constantly preaching dharma to you. Probably an improvement. Go celebrate your religion with like-minded folk.


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## RegularJoe

jaydee said:


> Someone once used statistical analysis to prove that storks really do deliver babies


Somehow I suspect that this analysis wouldn't fare well in a peer review. :wink:


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## tinyliny

@Regular Joe:

my all time favorite movie!


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## SouthernTrails

squirrelfood said:


> Agreed. There are MANY people in the US and Canada who do NOT believe in the bible or the lords prayer. What right do the rest of you have to keep shoving such in our faces?


But a lack of belief means it is OK to shove your opinion?

Just like an Atheist likes to share their disbelief of a god, a person who believes in a deity likes to share their beliefs.

Funny how thoughts/beliefs only work one way for some :wink:

Do not get me wrong, when the JW crowd came to the door last month I closed the door faster than I opened it. BTW, last year someone came to the door with a pamphlet about a Satanists Group, I treated them the same way, No thank you. :lol:

.


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## squirrelfood

SouthernTrails said:


> But a lack of belief means it is OK to shove your opinion?
> 
> Just like an Atheist likes to share their disbelief of a god, a person who believes in a deity likes to share their beliefs.
> 
> Funny how thoughts/beliefs only work one way for some :wink:
> 
> Do not get me wrong, when the JW crowd came to the door last month I closed the door faster than I opened it. BTW, last year someone came to the door with a pamphlet about a Satanists Group, I treated them the same way, No thank you. :lol:
> 
> .



*I* do not go around preaching my religion to others, nor tell them they will burn in hell if I don't believe the way they do. I don't have evangelists preaching for money. I don't accost strangers and offer to "pray" for them. I do not insist only one religion has any place in government. I don't shun those who believe differently. And I certainly don't go to war over religion. And people who have colds like to share those germs too. Doesn't mean I want some.


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## RegularJoe

SouthernTrails said:


> But a lack of belief means it is OK to shove your opinion?


It's not just you, but I have to say that the whole "shoving" rhetoric is, I think, inherently argumentative. How often do we hear about this group or that group "shoving" things at one another. We use language like this reflexively, I think, without considering the hostile imagery it invokes. Using argumentative language leads to people becoming defensive and closing their minds to other viewpoints. 



tinyliny said:


> my all time favorite movie


One of mine as well. Some of the wittiest banter since _All About Eve_.


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## jaydee

RegularJoe said:


> Somehow I suspect that this analysis wouldn't fare well in a peer review. :wink:


No it wouldn't!!! - But it did show how easy it is to get a 'result' you want simply by putting in the things you want to prove your theory and leaving out the things you know will disprove it


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## alexischristina

jaydee said:


> No it wouldn't!!! - But it did show how easy it is to get a 'result' you want simply by putting in the things you want to prove your theory and leaving out the things you know will disprove it


Which is precisely why REAL science uses a scientific method, does not concern itself with non-falsifiable issues, and engages in a peer review process. Anybody can say they've "proven" something, but just because somebody says so doesn't mean they actually have.


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## RegularJoe

jaydee said:


> But it did show how easy it is to get a 'result' you want simply by putting in the things you want to prove your theory and leaving out the things you know will disprove it


Well, naturally you can "prove" anything you want with junk science. 

Or as I like to call it: Just making stuff up. 

The trouble is that the scientific literacy in the population is so poor that huge numbers of people aren't able to understand the difference between junk science and the real thing, so demagogues decorate BS in scientific-sounding window dressing and pass it off as real research. 

What's worse is that it's becoming increasingly common now for people to be openly hostile to science when it doesn't provide the answers they want to hear. Things like climate change, evolution, and vaccinations are the best known examples, but even things as innocuous as reclassifying Pluto as a rather unremarkable Kuiper Belt Object instead of a planet raised a ruckus. 

Incidentally, while looking up the correct spelling of "Kuiper Belt" I stumbled upon this interesting article on the politics of Pluto's status: 

http://www2.ess.ucla.edu/~jewitt/papers/2007/JL07.pdf

I found this quote noteworthy: 



> We believe that the public attachment to Pluto-as-planet reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the evolving, self-correcting nature of science.


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## RedHorseRidge

SouthernTrails said:


> Just like an Atheist likes to share their disbelief of a god, a person who believes in a deity likes to share their beliefs.


I know a lot of atheists and have never heard even one want to shove this "non-belief" on me personally... ever... in my entire life. It might come up in conversation (that is true for both sides), but it is far from pushing anything on anyone. 

Atheists don't use this non-belief to place rules/regulations on those who believe; religious people, however, use/want to use their belief in god to place rules/regulations on those who do not believe. For example, you won't find an atheist saying "I believe in allowing gay marriage because I don't believe in god." Rather you would hear "I believe in a gay marriage because people should be allowed the freedom to pick their partner." Ask any christian why they don't support gay marriage...

As to pushing, shoving or forcing views on someone: People with strong religious views often see their "mission" of sharing their beliefs as a responsibility. But it goes beyond that. I have heard christians argue that labor unions are anti-christian, Jesus was a capitalist, the bible verse "anyone unwilling to work should not eat" means Jesus was against welfare, the bible is against homosexuality, and so on. The problem is that these religious views shape laws which are indeed forced on everyone... those who believe in Jesus, those who are of different faith, and those that just don't believe.


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## squirrelfood

And for those who don't understand, not being christian does NOT mean you must be atheist.


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