# New confo pics of Cinny today, please critique him



## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I took some new conformation pictures today because I wanted to compare what he looks like now with what he looked like when I got him. I thought it would be the perfect opportunity for a re-critique as well. The shot of his right side got messed up because someone's dumb blood hound started bellowing and freaked cinny out a bit, but the left is a pretty good pic.

What I can see is that he still needs to build his topline more and he is very definitely COWHOCKED...which looking at the pic of his hind is sort of an understatement. Also you may notice that his right hind looks a little enlarged, it's due to scar tissue from a fence cut when he was a yearling. It healed just fine and causes him no problems at all. I'm interested in what other people see.

He is registered APHA in the solid registry
8 years old
registered as "black" but he's probably more black bay I'd say (this is what he looks like faded, the rest of the year he's jet black)
He measures 15h
I have mainly been using him dressage and he has done well showing intro at schooling shows. We also do trail and a little WP so that he's easier for my daughter to ride. We play at barrels but nothing very serious and have never competed, just played at the stable.
I bought him a year ago as "untrained" but in reality he was more of what Maura calls a "green reclaim."

Left Side









Right Side









Back









Front








Head (just because he's so cute)


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Very nice horse. Very nice. The sort of horse I wouldn't mind owning. If I were to nitpick, I'd complain about the ever-so-slightly steep slant of his croup, his over-at-the-knee-ness, and his somewhat fine bone. And the cowhocks, as you pointed out.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I never really noticed his being over at the knees before you said that, but yes... you are right he is lol. Just looked at my old pictures, and he is there too.... I thought maybe if he wasn't in those then maybe it was something chiro and other therapy could put back but it looks like he's knee over for the long haul 

Never noticed his croup either, I just always used to my old QH who was always a tad too big in the butt.

And thank you for the compliment. I think I got him for a steal and his previous owner still periodically calls asking if I still like him because if I don't she'll take him back ha ha. I think she regrets selling him.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Over at the knee? Well, maybe a tiny bit, but way better to be over at the knee than calf kneed (the opposite).
He is definintely cowhocked , something that a lot of people say about horses when actually it's normal for the leg to angle outward a little from the hock.
His back is a little bit long, or maybe it's just the short croup/steep angle. His shoulder is nice and his front legs really nice and straight. He is a nice looking horse and has a pretty head.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks Tiny. I love his head too, although I had one trainer that said his head was ugly and that I should never show him halter, ****.

I also forgot to mention that the vet says he's missing a vertabrae, which would account for part of his back soreness. And if he isn't worked consistently he starts to have issue with his sacroilliac joint getting stiff on him. I've always thought of him as short backed myself as most saddles are just too long for him.

All in all, from what I hear he was an "oops" breeding (neighbors no name paint youngster got in whith a champ AQHA reiner), so where "oops" breedings are concerned I think he lucked out


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Actually I agree but he isn't REALLY cow hocked. A cow hocked horse would have the feet out and the cannons at an angle. This horse has cannons that areturned but perpendicular to the ground. Cow hocks is a serious flaw when it is real. The spiral of the leg conformation will always give a horse a toed out stance behind (allows the stifle to clear the belly among other things).

What this horse IS behind is "standing close." He toes out because he is standing so close and he is not a skinny minny up top! This means he likely TRAVELS Straight (a truly cow hocked horse will keep his hocks close when he trots away from you and swing his feet wide.. and it is very strange to see). What he MIGHT do is interfere a bit (brush) behind and it seems the inside of his ankles are a little puffy. He might be a horse that shoud be ridden with brush boots when he is shod behind. 

Yes.. a bit over at the knee (not a serious flaw) and a bit of a dip behind his withers.. but a nice package altogether.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Elana said:


> What this horse IS behind is "standing close." He toes out because he is standing so close and he is not a skinny minny up top! This means he likely TRAVELS Straight .


Could this be the reason he just can't seem to get it in his head that it is actually possibly to BEND. That is the one major thing we have issues with when riding. Don't get me wrong, he has improved by leaps and bounds but the bendy things in dressage are always his biggest struggles.

He has always been completely barefoot. Last week he took a chunk out and I was sure that we were heading into needing shoes but it turns out he started growing out at drastic rates so my farrier just changed him to a 4 week trimming schedule and said that it should prevent the hoof issues. We have been doing the usual 6 week and last time he had to almost take off 6 inches of flared out, cosmetic yuck. But regardless, he does have boots... I usually ride him in Legacy boots.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

The reason he has trouble bending is because he does not know how to track up and put his weight to the rear. In all reality horses do not really do a lot of bending in their body. What they learn is how to place their rear feet and how to be balanced. 

Looking at him I see a hollow back.. and a need for hills and caveletti. Transitions.. up and down.. working him forward and teaching him to com up into your hands (or up into the bridle). He needs to learn go be obedient to your leg.. 

IOW's a lot of training.  But that is what we do is it not?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

The past year we have mainly worked on acceptance of a person on our back, acceptance of a bit in our mouth and also that there are 3 other gaits besides gallop as fast as you can lol. Oh, and leg pressure doesn't always mean go faster (he still occasionally misinterprets that one though).

The past 4 months or so we have also been concentrating on turning around barrels both forwards and backwards, Hills Hills Hills on trail and transitions. I haven't done any ground pole work because our BO is working on getting ground poles for us. We mostly use what we can find on trail as far as fallen branches and the such.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> Very nice horse. Very nice. The sort of horse I wouldn't mind owning. If I were to nitpick, I'd complain about the ever-so-slightly steep slant of his croup, his* over-at-the-knee-ness*, and his somewhat fine bone. And the cowhocks, as you pointed out.


What types of long term issues could something like that cause? And what is the "correct" term? I ask because a girl I ride with has a horse that has "funny looking" legs. I won't post pix because the horse isn't mine but they are much more severely noticeable then Cinnys. But I think it's that sort of conformation only much more. Maybe I could post pix of just the legs and nothing else. I ask out of pure curiousity. Nothing else.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Well, I'm not exactly an anatomy/physiology expert, but my understanding is that, unless severe, it is generally not something to be worried about in regards to soundness. I've never heard a term besides "over at the knee," and I've never read a truly technical article about it, but all the information I have read agrees that it is a far less worrisome fault than "back at the knee" / "calf-kneed," which is the opposite problem. I think a horse that is badly over at the knee is somewhat more prone to soft tissue injury, but milder cases are more cosmetic. In other horses, it can be a sign of hard work in the past, though I don't know what the mechanism is that causes the knees to "buckle" over time. You see it a lot in older TB's.


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Above: The horse at the left exhibits calf knees or backwards knees, a severe conformation fault with potential lameness implications if used for strenous athletic work. The middle horse shows perfectly straight legs with solid strong bone structure. The horse at the right is slightly bent over at the knee, perhaps caused by hard use earlier in life. This is more consmetic in nature than truly detrimental. All horses pictured above have good angle to their pasterns and adequate length, though some disciplines might like them to be marginally longer for smoothness in gait. The middle horse has good ratio of bone length from upper to lower leg (short cannons are ideal for greater speed and fluidity of movement). The horse at the right has slightly longer-than-ideal cannon bones.

That's the image I use a lot because the horse on the left has about the worst example of calf knees I've seen. The horse on the right is my teenage gelding, who was used pretty hard in the past. He's only slightly over at the knee, but I suspect that his may have been caused more from hard riding than genetics.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

One of my favorite reads on Conformation is "Conformation, the relationship of form to function" by Marvin Beeman, DVM. It can be found on the AQHA website. It touches a lot on different conformation flaws in regards to what they can cause later on down life's road. In the case of being forward, it doesn't seem to be a huge deal according to him, especially not in comparison to the opposite. The way I understand him, horses that are over in the knee may seem shaky or week, but it isn't necessarily true and at least the knee is still bent in the direction it is meant to bend in. He also said it's preferred to calf kneed which puts the horses weight and power directly on the navicular bone causing slight calf kneed horses to be more prone than horses over at the knees.









I was looking at the one and only foal picture I have of Cinny (the one on his registration) and even in that picture, though he isn't square and has his weight only on one foreleg, the leg the weight is on appears to be over at the knee to the same degree he currently is. I also know he has had one owner besides his breeder, and while owned by her he did pretty much nothing until I bought him at age 7. She had him broke to ride at 2, put him back in the dry lot, attempted to start riding him on trails in which he consistently and violently bucked her off so he sat another year until someone wanted to buy him.... me. So as for previous overwork, strain, etc.... unless you count chasing his brother around the dry lot, he hasn't really had any ha ha.

I brought him along slowly, ground work, ground work, ground work. Then walking under saddle, then trot, I don't think we even cantered until about 9 months after buying him except an occasional 3 or 4 strides he broke in to or just to see what he would do....but again, only a few strides. Mainly it was because he pretty much had NO balance. I bought him in April of 2010 and it took until Jan 2011 for him to really be balanced enough to carry out a nice, smooth, balanced canter.

My 12 year old wants to possibly use him hunter/jumper in a year or so, and I need to think about where the concussion and weight will end up when he lands on those knees. I think I may have to really limit her heights on him.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I do seem to recall jumping as being the one discipline known to be hard on over-at-the-knee horses, but that is not my area of expertise. Oh why oh why do you not have that horse on cow and ranch work, though?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I don't have a ranch, nor do I have cattle lol. I thought it would be fun to learn team penning sometime down the road and in the turnout he seems to have speed. He is also too smart for his own good. He was bred for reining (Doc Bar, Doc's Jack Sprat, etc) The one thing a good ranch horse does need, is to carry a Western Saddle and well.... this horse is very very particular about his saddles which I suspect is why he consistently and violently bucked off his previous owner (she was sort of a one saddle for every horse kind of person when we first met).

I started with dressage (btw it took me over 20 tries to find a dressage saddle he would approve of) because I thought it would be good foundation for any horse. I also wanted him to learn to use his body properly and to his advantage, including not falling onto his fore and not engaging his hind which was a habit of his when I bought him. I have lost count of how many western saddles I have tried on him. Two fitters have attempted to fit him with much frustration because he still bucked the heck out of anything they said should fit him. Mind you, he has NEVER even offered to buck with me on his back, not once. And he normally doesn't buck on the lunge either (except during saddle fittings) but I have never been on him with a saddle that I didn't know for sure that he was okay with. I finally found that he would tolerate a friend's custom saddle and began working him in that (technically it doesn't fit him). I have since found an Abetta trail saddle that he also seems to like even though it technically doesn't fit him either.... with this horse I have learned that sometimes any saddle that does not cause him to violently buck, leave sore spots, or rub him ... was the saddle for us it doesn't matter what the textbooks say in his regard.

My plans are to continue with Dressage for at least a year longer. I know he will never be a great grand prix dressage horse or anything even close, I just want him to really learn how to use and control his own body well. I also like doing schooling shows with him and he really enjoys show atmosphere (he's the only horse I have ever known to lay down and fall asleep with his stall under the judge/soundsystem stand). My daughter wants to take him hunter/jumper (though she is NOT ready to ride any horse h/j right now and doesn't want to buckled down and develop herself), my friend's daughter wants to use him for 4H next year for WP and EP as her old push button is now boring to her. The most likely will be to continue schooling shows with dressage and the 4H shows.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I just wanted to say that I have seen your videos of him as you brought him along and your patient and systematic development have done well by him.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Thanks Tiny. You should see him now, actually...... but alas, we have yet to find the video camera ha ha. We recently moved and that was one of the things Rob packed, and well...he has a habit of just grabbing stuff and throwing it in boxes and not marking them to boot ha ha.

I can tell you I can ride with reins completely dropped now. He reaches so far forward with his rear that we have to keep boots on front because he occasionally nicks them (that's the biggest diff), and I can get him to bend and go deep into the arena corners now. Something that he got kudos for at his last show because none of the other intro horses were doing it, they all avoided the corners lol.


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