# Splash, Tobiano, Buckskin- correct????



## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

OK - So I've never been into paints or pintos- or grays for that matter :wink: (not a fan at all & said I'd never have one)- then Murphy struck (on both accounts :rofl: ) & I ended up with a Pinto filly- I fell for her blue eyes lol.

I got her as a yearling, her sire & dam are both reg Tobiano pintos as is she & I just thought she had blue eyes due to being a pinto/tobiano. I started to look more into the genetics behind blue eyes (I love her blue eyes) & found out about Splash, then found out tobiano doesnt cause blue eyes?:? ...at least that seems to be the consensus anyway :wink: & she shouldnt even really have a blaze if she's simply a tobiano either? 
I am thinking I'd like to get a foal out of her when she's older, so her markings/colouration have become more relevant than just pretty blue eyes & fun to ponder over :wink:

So am I correct in thinking she is a Splash, Tobiano, Buckskin (I assume she is smutty/countershaded bay base due to her sire being bay & dam looking flat buckskin, however she does have the much paler tan flanks, muzzle & eye areas that Seal Browns have & goes MUCH darker over winter than in summer, so unless her Seal Brown looking brother is also out of the same sire, I'm sticking with Dk bay rather than having her tested as that test alone will cost approx $100nz) 

If in doubt which pattern should I test for to get the clearest idea on her colouration?


As a foal with her dam-
1day old








few mths old








As a yearling








1 & 1/2yrs
















1yr 10mths

















Her dam -








Her sire - 
As a foal








...& Now


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Oh, she is also the only foal with blue eyes that either sire or dam has thrown- all their other offspring from all other crossings even those with a different stallion or mare have never produced blue eyes- having said that her sire seems to stamp his off spring strongly with his pattern- ie bit of colour around the flanks & on the head (with some on the chest if they are lucky), along with a big lop sided blaze- the stallion has produced only one foal who is almost 50/50 in pattern/colouration & a much narrower irregular blaze than the others.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Tobiano in and of itself does not cause face white. All it means if a horse has face white and is tobiano is that they have another white pattern causing the white. 

Splash is though to cause blue eyes, people are on the fence as to whether or not frame also causes blue eyes. 

IMO she is a smokey brown rather than a buckskin (brown with cream where buckskin is bay with cream). 


Bay is dominant over brown, so a bays can produce browns, but brown does not hide bay. The At (brown) could have come from either sire or dam since they are both carrying agouti.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Something about her is making me think frame for some reason. It could be the 'sideways-ness' of her face white on the side of her head, or the way her blaze wants to slip under her ears like that.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Same here Chiilaa. I just came back to say something about frame. 

OP have either horses been tested for frame (sire/dam)


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## BlackCricket (Oct 20, 2011)

I agree with the smokey brown--or brown creme or brownskin, or whatever people are calling it now..lol It seems to vary at the moment..but brown with creme.

Yes splash tobi...and I would want to say frame as well..


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Even if you don't test her color, I'd certainly be testing for OLWS. 

"
Although the condition lethal white syndrome is also sometimes called "overo lethal white," that term is somewhat a misnomer. Because there are many different ways a horse can be classified as an "overo," and different genes linked to overo patterning, it is not accurate to say the "overo gene" is what "causes" lethal white syndrome.[1] The frame allele is associated with lethal white, but the other genetics, such as horses with sabino and splash alleles, are not."

From Wikipedia


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Same here Chiilaa. I just came back to say something about frame.
> 
> OP have either horses been tested for frame (sire/dam)


No they havent but both tested positive for Tobiano (Sire is TT)- I know TT can be nO as well-breeder doesnt from what I can tell.

The only reasons that have made me uncertain that she is indeed Seal Brown with creme is that the foals out of this stallion seem to have very little colour on them making it very hard to say for sure if they are simply Dk/sooty bay's or Seal Browns, he has thrown what looks to be a seal brown to a seal brown mare & Cynders dam has had what looks to be a Seal Brown to a Seal Brown Stallion, however it's hard to say for sure with all the white masking everything so well. The other reason was that from what I've seen of the horses confirmed (tested) to be Seal Brown with a copy of creme is that they almost always look rather dark gold over summer, which she does not- she goes pale tan the same as she is in winter- just in winter she also gets much darker like she is counter shaded/ sooty- I guess I'll wait until next yr & see if the Brown test becomes available here, otherwise I will have to get her tested via Pet DNA Services of Arizona.

Since her sire & dam have not been tested for Frame - I will have her tested for it - Yes I know about LWO already (I have LOVED genetic inheritance since I was 8yrs old & have continued to study the inheritance patters of equine coat colours & modifiers for 15-20yrs now- like I say I didnt go 'into' pinto&paint patterns only knew the bare basics which I consider LWO to be a part of).


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## SarahAnn (Oct 22, 2011)

Subbing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

I can't really help you out with her coloring, but I'm always interested in hearing about it all from the experts  she's gorgeous btw!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I would think this is a tovero, but I am really bad at pattern & color terminology. How about a cute little paint filly?


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

waresbear said:


> I would think this is a tovero, but I am really bad at pattern & color terminology. How about a cute little paint filly?


Lol, yep she is cute & a Pinto not Paint :wink: - but as I plan to bred from her (if she is good enough conformation wise), colour/pattern sort of counts (esp if there's a chance of unhealthy foal because of it)


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

OK for those that think she is Seal & creme, can you please either post a pic or link to any confirmed (via testing of themselves or parent) Seal Brown buckskins whom are as pale/light as she is? I’ve looked for 3hrs now & cant find anything other than burnt/smutty/counter shaded buckskins

Also is there a test for Splash yet?

Can Tabiano only pattern actually have blue eyes? (some site’s say yes but rarely, others say not at all unless Overo is also present- any papers confirming or disproving either?)

& I now see why you think she's Frame rather than Splash, the fact she looks to have 2 coloured patches on a white head rather than a white marking on a coloured head makes her look very much Buckskin Frame Tovero doesnt it....
So testing her for Frame- if that comes back neg, she’s what… either a warped `new’ kind of Tobiano or a Splash? Do splash have pointed leg markings (the ones I’ve seen look fairly rounded & even)


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Surayya said:


> OK for those that think she is Seal & creme, can you please either post a pic or link to any confirmed (via testing of themselves or parent) Seal Brown buckskins whom are as pale/light as she is? I’ve looked for 3hrs now & cant find anything other than burnt/smutty/counter shaded buckskins
> 
> Also is there a test for Splash yet?
> 
> ...


Wow lots of questions lol. I love questions 

In terms of finding any that are as light as her, there are plenty. It is not the darkness of the coat that makes a horse brown instead of bay. Brown can be really light in itself, but it will still have the paler flanks and muzzle etc. While we can't see the soft part of your lady's muzzle, we can see her flank, where she shows a definite lighter shade.

As far as I am aware, there is no test yet for splash.

As for blue eyes, I do not believe there is any reason to associate them with tobiano. I also do not believe that it is associate with sabino. However, it is hard to say for definite if it is any of them, as we only have a test for tobiano, frame and sabino 1 (there is thought to be at least a sabino 2, if not more).


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

*Thanks*



Chiilaa said:


> Wow lots of questions lol. I love questions
> 
> In terms of finding any that are as light as her, there are plenty. It is not the darkness of the coat that makes a horse brown instead of bay. Brown can be really light in itself, but it will still have the paler flanks and muzzle etc. While we can't see the soft part of your lady's muzzle, we can see her flank, where she shows a definite lighter shade.
> 
> ...


Lol I had to temper those questions so there wasn’t 5 more :wink:


Can you direct me to any one pic of the many horses as pale/light as she is please?- Cause honestly I havent found a SINGLE horse who is confirmed Seal via testing to look this light (I have seen lighter than almost 'normal' looking seals but not this light), however I have seen a fair few (who to be fair have had no testing for Seal as far as I know) that look much like her that are considered counter shaded/smutty/burnt 'bay' buckskins.

Yes I understand a little about Browns - I've had a few lol (some from foal to full grown with extra modifiers on top as well). I have never had an overly pale seal brown horse tho – can you direct me to this variation of Seal brown please? I'm interested to see for myself how pale they can get, as all mine have been much of a muchness colour wise & as far as I knew Seal was just the black being expressed over the horses body aside from the soft parts, so very interested to see how this 'black' pointing can be diluted with out other modifiers at work 

Cynder looks Seal Brown + creme in Winter- in summer not so much at all- however it is hard to tell with so much white, but her flank & side of her belly on the larger spot look to be the same colour as each other rather than paler flank, darker belly area....I do know that counter shading/ smutty can & do get very dark over winter esp over the head & neck area, which is why I am resisting the temptation of calling her Seal Brown- I'll try get some new pics of her now she's in her summer coat for all to take a look at. 

I'm not really interested in I 'think' this is seal brown & creme examples, Im after it's 'proven' Seal Brown & creme examples  If there's a strong chance she is Seal I'll spend the $100 & get her tested, I wont if I cant see another very pale/light coloured confirmed Seal Brown buckskin tho as it'd be like burning that $100 when I got the neg At results back & this close to christmas, burning $100 is not really an option lol :wink:


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I wish I had taken a picture of him when I had the chance, but last year there was a gelding at my barn who looked exactly like your horse with his winter coat. I never saw him in his summer coat, but I imagine he was about as light as she is. I am willing to bet he hadn't been tested for At, but still it would be a picture for you to see.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Again, the problem is that there is only one test for brown, and as it is unpublished, not many people are testing as yet. Another factor is that there is no test for sooty - some people are beginning to wonder if sooty expresses on bay at all, or if all those "sooty" bays were actually some shade of brown instead.

This mare is tested AAt, so she is brown. As you can see, she is fairly light, and easily mistaken for bay.

http://colorgenetics.info/equine_ga...2_GALLERYSID=d5065bb5263352438157eb43ae84d67d


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Found it!!

Check out the mare on this page called Devine Mountain Echo.

Morgan Colors- Buckskin Morgan Horses

Same colour as your girl IMO. Just add white in the right places


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Again, the problem is that there is only one test for brown, and as it is unpublished, not many people are testing as yet. Another factor is that there is no test for sooty - some people are beginning to wonder if sooty expresses on bay at all, or if all those "sooty" bays were actually some shade of brown instead.
> 
> This mare is tested AAt, so she is brown. As you can see, she is fairly light, and easily mistaken for bay.
> 
> http://colorgenetics.info/equine_ga...2_GALLERYSID=d5065bb5263352438157eb43ae84d67d


 Wow that is VERY light!!! Was she tested for any other modifiers? (esp with that roan patch on her quarters). Thinking there is a good chance theres another modifier of some sort at work there, as her 'Tan' parts look almost white in that pic....Very interesting tho, thanks 

My Brown filly looked very washed like this at between 1 & 3yrs come to think of it, but she also has a copy of the gray gene, so that is what I put it down to.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Found it!!
> 
> Check out the mare on this page called Devine Mountain Echo.
> 
> ...


I've seen those pics before - I discounted them as the mature coat looks a way darker/richer brown than Cynder gets, even in winter.
I know why you think she's Seal Brown base I too feel she is rather 'beige' to be bay however in summer she goes uniform bright beige, with just a touch of darker shading about the eyes & a slightly darker chest....I may look into getting her tested for Brown next yr maybe- I know hardly labs test for it & thats the only reason why I've held off testing, like I say it's a good $100Nz for that one test alone & when I have 2 other tests at $30Nz each to do, it starts to add up :-(
I may not even bother testing her for Seal Brown if I decide to put her to a homozygous Black & Tobiano Gypsy cob- she'll either throw a bay, brown or black with 50/50 chance of creme, if it's bay I know she's not Seal Brown, if it's Brown I know she's not Bay- the only kicker will be if she throws a black lol :twisted: :lol: 

Would you say her Dam is also a Seal Brown Buckskin?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Nope. Mumma is a bay based buckskin IMO. Brown is thought to be recessive to bay, so can "hide" in bay horses. I am still fairly certain that your girl is brown based, mostly because of the difference in colour from her flank to her neck in those older shots.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Chiilaa said:


> Nope. Mumma is a bay based buckskin IMO. Brown is thought to be recessive to bay, so can "hide" in bay horses. I am still fairly certain that your girl is brown based, mostly because of the difference in colour from her flank to her neck in those older shots.


 Well she's actually the exact same hue as her Dam right through summer – I will ask the breeder if she has photos of her Dam over winter & see what turns up – didn’t think to ask before now…whoops, she just gets darker hairs in winter on top of the beige. 

I hear what you are saying though with regards to sooty/ countershaded horses possibly being Seal Browns, will do some more research before forming an opinion on that tho


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

Hmmm no pics of Dam over winter as "she looks hideous over winter". Owner did say she goes a couple of shades darker but not like Cynder does.....so yep looks like she's Seal Brown & Creme - test will tell for sure 


Now back to Frame .....Who tests for Frame? Or is it just the test for LWO thats used? Because it's my understanding that being Frame doesnt guarantee the horse will also carry LW????


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Frame is OWLs/LWO. You can't have one without having the other. Frame is just another name for it as it describes the pattern that is typically put on the horse.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Frame is OWLs/LWO. You can't have one without having the other. Frame is just another name for it as it describes the pattern that is typically put on the horse.


Ok so I'm confused, because some Frame horses have tested Neg LWO or are these just Look-a-like Frames who are actually Splash or Sabino???

It sucks there's no Splash test yet - I know her breeder wont be convinced Cyn is anything other than Tobiano if the test comes back neg Frame/LWO (she has a friend who has her convinced any coloured horse can have blue eyes if they are Tobiano:|)- I suppose only time will tell if thats the case, since I havent found any studies disproving it, but it will be a loooong wait as all the Gypsy Cobs over here are either homozygous Black TT or Tt (I want to add bone & substance to her offspring without getting too tall, so that only leaves Gypsy Cobs to bred from with 10 & 1/2+ inches of bone, if I want to stay under 15.3hh).
Im hoping Cynder will be Tt 

Will post results of her tests when they come in - weather is BAD here atm so will have to wait for it to clear up for collection of her hairs, to be sent off.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

... I just fell in love.


I can't help you, I'm clueless, but she's beautiful and so are her parents.


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## Surayya (Dec 7, 2011)

soenjer55 said:


> ... I just fell in love.
> 
> 
> I can't help you, I'm clueless, but she's beautiful and so are her parents.


 Thanks she is a cutie. She's the 1st light boned horse I've had in many years, so she looks tiny next to my med weight hunter (who I consider rather light boned lol :wink


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

If a horse is obviously frame and tested negative for it I would want a retest if it were my horse.


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