# Is it Harsh?



## MAG1723 (Jul 24, 2012)

Ugh my picture didn't load I will try again


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## luv my horse hinke (Aug 7, 2012)

the picture didnt show up


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## GamingGrrl (Jan 16, 2013)

Tom Thumbs are horrible bits. They have a nutcracker action and give confusing signals to the horse. Chuck it in the garbage ASAP.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

I agree with GamingGrrl. Horrible bit; if used correctly (which rarely ever is) it's an okay bit. If not used correctly, it can ruin a horse. My Arab had huge issues from that nasty bit that his first owners used on him; it took months for him to accept a (much gentler) bit and not be afraid of bits anymore.


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## MAG1723 (Jul 24, 2012)

Can anyone help me get the picture on please?


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

MAG1723 said:


> Can anyone help me get the picture on please?


Click on the paperclip "attachments" in the advanced view and you can upload the picture from your computer that way.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

While Tom Thumb bits are not designed real well, it still boils down to the hands on the reins and the how the rider rides and cues in general.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

Now I don't know of every bit ever made, but there are good bits for beginner horses and there are good bits for beginner riders. Asking if a bit is too harsh is the same as saying this fork made me fat. Its not the bit its who's hands are using it and what horse are you putting it in. To train a colt with a spade bit would be way way way past harsh, does that make spade bits harsh? No. in the right hand and in the right horse a spade bit can work and not be harsh.

As to your question about tom thumb bits I agree with everyone else I real don't like the cheep tom thumb bits and I am working them out of my program.


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## MAG1723 (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks Justimagine! Here is a pic of a bit exactly like mine


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## Laffeetaffee (Dec 5, 2012)

I can always tell when someone is riding their horse in a tom thumb bit. It's usually the horse with his head straight in the air and with his mouth open and jerking his head to any kind of pressure from the reins.

I'm a believer in the saying that bits are only as harsh as the hands that use them, but you can tell when someone designed a bit made for people who don't know how to have soft hands. Take for instance, the bicycle chain bit:










The Stop n Turn bit:









I don't even know what this bit is called:









For those of you who hate TTB, how do you like THEM shanks???


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

I have the bit in the first picture.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

They are really a poorly designed bit and even though some horses do okay with them, they will do much better with different bit. TT's just don't have the design to encourage a horse to seek it's contact.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## beverleyy (Oct 26, 2011)

I am a very firm believer that a bit is only as strong as the hands that touch it. Personally, I have never used a tom thumb, nor know anyone off the top of my head that uses one. I use a kimberwick on my pony, and I can think of a few times I've gotten certain looks for using it. I feel like that's because some (a lot) of people are uneducated on bits - they hear a certain type of bit and automatically assume it's HARSH or assume a person is using said bit has heavy hands or what have you. I don't have a problem with a person using a stronger bit if that is legitimately what is needed and the rider is educated on the purpose and use of that bit, and uses it correctly. That being said, there are a number of bits I can think of that you couldn't pay me to stick in any horse's mouth.


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## CowboyBob (Feb 11, 2013)

Ok so I know someone that used this bit, "because their horse wouldn't stop" I never got them to understand that they needed to retrain the horse. I never understood this bit.










The Stop n Turn bit:









"I don't even know what this bit is called: ":shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:wow!!!









"For those of you who hate TTB, how do you like THEM shanks???"
So when I was young and teaching my self to ride (this is why its important to get help when you are starting out) I was having trouble getting my horse to stop, I went to a "tack shop" and stood and looked at the bit all until a guy that worked there came up to "help" I told him my problem with my horse and he sold me this bit I took it home put it on my horse and STILL had trouble getting him to stop. Long story short. I went away for the summer to work at a summer camp working with horses. Came home at the end of the summer and this and my old bridle was hanging on the wall. Both were missing the curb strap . went out bought two curb straps and surprise surprise my horse didn't have a stopping problem. The moral be careful how you take tack advice from. and when you are a beginner get help. 







[/QUOTE]


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## PunksTank (Jul 8, 2012)

OP - what are your goals with your horse.
I think it's been stated well enough that Tom Thumbs are poorly designed bits - and even if they're not always harsh in gentle hands, there are more kind and effective options out there.

If you're looking for just a basic western bit, you want something with a solid mouth piece, not jointed, either ported or mullened. Shorter shanks in relation to the purchase make the bit milder, and vice versa - longer shanks to a shorter purchase make them harsher. You'll want to look into your particular sport and try some on your horse to see what you both work well in.

If you are direct reining (as so many falsely think they can do in a TT) You'll want to look into some snaffle options (bits with rings, not shanks). My preference is double jointed bits like French links or lozenge styles like KK ultra. 
I think how you and your horse rides and what your ultimate goals are will help find you an appropriate bit. TT's just aren't ideal in any situation (IMO).


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

So many factors with this. While I can't think of ANY circumstance I would use a Tom Thumb, I am a firm believer that the rider plays a big role in how harsh the bit is to the horse. So rider, horse attitude and mouth anatomy play huge roles.

My percheron's D-ring single jointed snaffle seemed like a milder bit to people. However, for her, it was quite harsh since she has an extremely wide tongue, fleshy lips and very low palate. I ride very light in my hands, so I got away with it, but you could see she wasn't happy.

I have a kimberwick with a double-jointed losenge and a low port solid mouthpiece curb. She has responded very nicely to both of them and is much more relaxed, even though they would be considered harsher bits I guess. The points of pressure are different then with the snaffle and works for her. Each horse is individual and have different tolerances too. Then combine that with maybe the person does not have the correct size bit for the horse or have it positioned correctly with the horses head....that can be disasterous too.


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## bbsmfg3 (Aug 12, 2010)

I agree, harshness is mostly in the hands of the rider.

However, the snaffle, that is one of the most common starter bits is also one of the most severe. At one time we used a snaffle to start all of our horses, then I found some of them did poorly in the snaffle. After quite a bit of research, I found the cause of the problem. The floor of the mouth of quite a few horses is too shallow to allow the tongue to get under the bit, without a lot of pressure on the tongue. We started using the toklat #89-20015 HBT 5" shank w/the SI 01 CI mouth. You can attach the reins to the bit at the connection to the mouth piece, so there is no lever action at all. Then when your ready for lever action move the reins to the shanks. The bit has a raised mouth piece that provides clearance for the tongue.

Many, many hard mouthed horses are made this way because the horse is simply protecting his tongue.

The bicycle chain bit, if properly fit, and has the smooth side down, is actually a milder bit than the simple, one joint snaffle. The chain has multiple joints, giving more rise to make room for the tongue.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

bbsmfg3 said:


> I agree, harshness is mostly in the hands of the rider.
> 
> However, the snaffle, that is one of the most common starter bits is also one of the most severe. At one time we used a snaffle to start all of our horses, then I found some of them did poorly in the snaffle. After quite a bit of research, I found the cause of the problem. The floor of the mouth of quite a few horses is too shallow to allow the tongue to get under the bit, without a lot of pressure on the tongue. We started using the toklat #89-20015 HBT 5" shank w/the SI 01 CI mouth. You can attach the reins to the bit at the connection to the mouth piece, so there is no lever action at all. Then when your ready for lever action move the reins to the shanks. The bit has a raised mouth piece that provides clearance for the tongue.
> 
> ...


I like that bit too and have one, just not in a 7" for my percheron. I'd have to have it made by Myler for her, which I may just do.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I have yet to see a TT hanging in a trainers tackroom, that ought to tell you something....


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## Laffeetaffee (Dec 5, 2012)

CowboyBob said:


> Ok so I know someone that used this bit, "because their horse wouldn't stop" I never got them to understand that they needed to retrain the horse. I never understood this bit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
Lol I remember I was teaching my little neighbor about different bits and how they work, and I was putting them on my horse and saying "this is how you use this bit" and such... and I found a TTB in my barn and I half considered just leaving it in there, but I wanted to show her the effects of it. So I put it on my horse and she immediately stuck her head straight in the air. My little neighbor was so confused, she said "Are you pulling on the reins?? How come her head is so high?" I had the reins dropped on the horse's neck, I wasn't even touching them and the horse was reacting that bad.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

> Lol I remember I was teaching my little neighbor about different bits and how they work, and I was putting them on my horse and saying "this is how you use this bit" and such... and I found a TTB in my barn and I half considered just leaving it in there, but I wanted to show her the effects of it. So I put it on my horse and she immediately stuck her head straight in the air. My little neighbor was so confused, she said "Are you pulling on the reins?? How come her head is so high?" I had the reins dropped on the horse's neck, I wasn't even touching them and the horse was reacting that bad.


That's exactly how my Arab was in the TT his first owners had him using; he would jam his head straight in the air. So what did they do? They tied his head down :shock: For YEARS. One of the best days of my life, was the day I put a bit in my Arab's mouth and he didn't clench his teeth to keep it out. I can't even begin to tell you how badly the combination of that bit and the tie-down messed him up.


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## howrsegirl123 (Feb 19, 2012)

I used a Tom Thumb on a horse once, only because that's all we had. But he would always pull and gape his mouth. So I switched to a plain snaffle and all of that stopped. He wasn't hard mouthed, it was the bit :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RiverBelle (Dec 11, 2012)

*Too Harsh?*

I don't want to 'steal' someone's thread, but I saw this thread, started reading, and thought that maybe I had been mistaken about horse bits too, like a couple other people had mentioned. You may want to read the whole thing to get the idea.

I had a grade saddle mare (who I figure was a Missouri fox-trotter) who had trouble staying at a walk. She had been trained by her pervious owner to pick up into her gait as soon as someone was in the saddle. For the 6 years I had her before she passed away, I could never ever ever get her to slow down. I rode her with a basic snaffle bit at the beginning, and she nearly ran off with me, so I moved to this bit:









I found this bit in the garage because my dad used to own horses and has some left over stuff. Please remember that this mare was my first real horse that I could call my own, and that my dad had never been a horse person. He didn't even now what a 'frog' or 'bridle path' was. I had been studying for years before I got my first horse, but I never really studied up on bits..

Now my mare did really well with this bit for a while. She would want to gait and go faster, but she would tuck her head and have this beautiful show, flashy walk. She seemed to do really well with it.

I don't know if I was doing something wrong, but over the years her mouth got harder and harder, and I got to the point where I was scared she would try to bolt with me. so I went to the tack store and the man there told me I needed this bit, so I bought it.:









the tack shop owner is a older man who has been riding, showing, breeding, and training Tennessee Walkers his whole life, so I trusted his judgement. He told me that my mare needed a longer shank, and that this bit would be the next step up. He said it would make her slow down and listen but wouldn't be too harsh and hurt her mouth. I rode her in it and OMG she rode like a dream. nice and smooth and slow.

Was this bit too harsh? It this bit with its longer shanks like a tom thumb? my mare rode great in it, or so I thought... never threw her head or acted strange,. she tucked her head and moved great. so, whats the verdict? just curious here.


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## Copperhead (Jun 27, 2012)

Usually the answer to "bitting up to slow a horse down" is not the correct answer. In order to slow a horse down, you gotta retrain. The bit can't retrain, it can only contain.

I'm starting to sound like a Dr. Seuss book!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

Riverbell, the mouth pieces look equal to each other in form. I'm not sure how much play there is at the corners/ends of the mouthpiece where it attches to the shank... There may be a slight gag action there. Between the massive leverage and the curb chain, I'd imagine any horse being finger-light. That bit is certainly only as harsh as your hands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

Re: Riverbelle, as Copperhead stated in a Seussism, moving up in bits is never the right thing to do when it comes to slowing down a horse. That being said, you didn't move "up" in bits, you moved to a totally different one!

A basic snaffle attaches at the rings, which means that when you pull on the reins, there is no leverage-- that is, the pressure you put into the bit is the pressure it gives out to the horse.

The bit you switched to (first) is a basic low-port curb. Because of the shanks, the pressure you put into the bit is now magnified in the horse's mouth! What this is supposed to mean is that subtle changes can be detected by your horse, allowing the rider to offer imperceptible cues, neck rein, etc. However, what it meant for you was that you were operating off of more pressure in your horse's mouth-- the bit gave your hands more ouchie power. That is not the purpose of this bit. To give you an idea, whenever I use a curb bit I make it my goal to barely touch my horse's mouth with it!

It is likely that your horse's mouth hardened because you are treating the curb like a harsher bit (and it is, but it is not meant to be) and direct reining in it (pulling on the horse's mouth, not neck reining and using your seat to give your signals).

The longer shanks on the last bit just make it harsher, in that your same "pull" now applies even more pressure than it did formerly! You are avoiding the true problem, which is your horse's training and lack of respect for your cues.

My last two cents-- just because your horse is tucking his nose doesn't necessarily mean he is moving happily, efficiently or relaxed.


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## Laffeetaffee (Dec 5, 2012)

Here's an awesome explanation about how bits act on the mouth and why horses behave the way they do towards bits. It's kind of on the exaggerated side, but still very helpful in understanding bit action.

He mostly focuses on the snaffle, but a tom thumb bit basically adds leverage to the snaffle. So if you pull on the reins with 5 pounds of pressure, because the TTB has leverage, it's going to be more like 20 pounds of pressure on the horse's mouth.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I'm giving lessons to a girl and her brother came and rode his horse as well. They were showing me how the horse "neck reined". All i saw was a tom thumb bit, a novice rider with harsh jerking hands, and a horse with his head high and on the wrong lead. Experienced eyes could see immediately the horse with very uncomfortable. But these people have not had horses long. I went up to him and told him to get off the horse and I took the tom thumb away from them lol. I nicely explained to them that this was a horrible bit and the boy didn't have the softness to ride in a shanked bit anyways. I put the horse in an O-ring snaffle and showed the boy softer hands and showed him what a real neck rein was. The horse did know how to do it but he did not enjoy the contact in the TT nor should he.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Fluffy (I hate her given name), the mare in my avatar, is being rode in a Tom Thumb there. Her owner liked them. 

I showed the guy that she goes well in a curb, and showed that if someone with crummy hands rode her with the tom thumb how it could work poorly. He went with the curb, but told people "that tom thumb was a good training bit." *head desk*

But, please notice, her head isn't up high, her mouth isn't gaped, she doesn't appear to be in anything approaching distress. We were sorting in a set of corrals, in other words, we were a busy pair. 

It's still up to the rider how it will go.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

"Fluffy", what a horrible name for a horse, LOL!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> "Fluffy", what a horrible name for a horse, LOL!


 


That's just what I call her. Her owner named her something "Indian" that is very common, but truly offensive.

Since my kids are part N. Cheyenne (with a dash of Lakota and a jigger of Scotch/Irish) we don't use that kind of language. Cool thing is, now every calls the mare Fluffy! The owner is getting used to it. :wink:


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

LOL! Gotcha...Fluffy it is!


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## hemms (Apr 18, 2012)

For propriety's sake, will you share the name with us, so we can be sensitive to others we may encounter? If you'd rather not, I understand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MAG1723 (Jul 24, 2012)

Thanks everyone! I use the TTB for western, if I am going to change what should I change it to?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

MAG1723 said:


> Thanks everyone! I use the TTB for western, if I am going to change what should I change it to?


Perhaps you could provide more information on his training and what you are using him for then someone could help make some bit suggestions for you.


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## MAG1723 (Jul 24, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Perhaps you could provide more information on his training and what you are using him for then someone could help make some bit suggestions for you.



I do everything with her. Jumping, Trials, cows, I'm on a drill team, Bareback, Shows, Gymkhanas ( pole bending, barrels, etc) Showmanship, Reining. Everything Western and English. Before I got her in April she was a broodmare. Had 7 foals. she is 19 this year. I have tought ( or reminded) her about a lot of things. you can find out more about her on my page. Her name is Ally. Is that all you needed to know?:lol:


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

MAG1723 said:


> I do everything with her. Jumping, Trials, cows, I'm on a drill team, Bareback, Shows, Gymkhanas ( pole bending, barrels, etc) Showmanship, Reining. Everything Western and English. Before I got her in April she was a broodmare. Had 7 foals. she is 19 this year. I have tought ( or reminded) her about a lot of things. you can find out more about her on my page. Her name is Ally. Is that all you needed to know?:lol:


 
You and she may get along fine in a curb. Don't assume that a low port curb is the most gentle. It depends on the anatomy of her mouth, too.

But, excuse me while I put on my flame resistant suit, if she and you are getting along just peachy with the Tom Thumb, stick with it. In my experience, horses trained with a TT can go either to a curb that fits them, a Mona Lisa, a mouthpiece with a cricket, just darn near anything. Again, it's a whole bunch on the rider.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

See the thing with Tom Thumbs is...is doesn't matter about the hands holding the reins AT ALL. It's THE WORST DESIGNED BIT ever made...period! (Without even attaching reins to it, a curb strap, and putting the reins in someone's hands!). The architecture is wrong from the get go, the mechanics of how it works is wrong from the get go. There is a huge problem with this bit...no matter what. So in this case, the bit is as harsh as the hands does not apply.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

It ALL has to do with the bit is a poor way for uneducated hands to communicate with their horse. SOME people think it is kinder than a solid mouthpiece, but, for some horses it pinches with the broken mouthpiece and pinches with the loose shanks.
Pick a snaffle or a curb, instead.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

FWIW, one of these might be a better option. This is the basic style that I use on all my more broke horses.

I have bits identical to these and really like them




 




 


This one is very similar but has a full copper mouth instead of sweet iron with copper inlays.




 


And, I've been really wanting to try one of these but haven't had the chance yet.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

MAG1723 said:


> I do everything with her. Jumping, Trials, cows, I'm on a drill team, Bareback, Shows, Gymkhanas ( pole bending, barrels, etc) Showmanship, Reining. Everything Western and English. Before I got her in April she was a broodmare. Had 7 foals. she is 19 this year. I have tought ( or reminded) her about a lot of things. you can find out more about her on my page. Her name is Ally. Is that all you needed to know?:lol:


You seem to do a lot with your horse, that's great, I think that keeps their minds fresh.
In how many of these events are you neck reining or using a direct/open rein like if using a snaffle? That should be a consideration when choosing a bit along with some of the other suggestions made, mouth conformation, horse's preference, event and capability of your horse and you. You may need a couple different bits to accommodate each style of riding your doing.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

MAG1723, I actually do much of the same stuff with my horse! English, Western, shows, dressage, gymkhanas, trails, obstacle clinics... I use a french link snaffle 80% of the time (ESPECIALLY gymkhanas! I cry every time I see a rider with a curb bit and short gymkhana reins, yanking away on the horse's mouth!), and the only time I switch into my low-port, short-shank curb is when it's required by showing or if I'm just switching it up to keep my horse fresh and sensitive to a bit where I am not providing much of real contact, but using my body and neck-reining for direction.

IMHO it takes some arena practice and control exercises "bit down" to a French link snaffle if your horse is used to something else, but it is so worth it!

ETA... keep in mind, you don't need a curb bit to neck rein! I neck rein in a snaffle all of the time.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I will put myself out to be flamed and state my Arabs always rode better in tom thumbs than curbs. I don't know why.  Someone made me put a curb on my old Arab once and she almost went over just from touching the reins. 

I do a lot with my Arab mare and its all in a french link snaffle - jumping, Dressage, gaming. However, out on the trail she gets silly with other horses and in a snaffle, she will fight me tooth and nail sometimes. Using the tom thumb allows me to go on a loose rein 99% of the time and when she acts up, gives me a little wiggle to let her know prancing like a knob is not an option. 

I would never start a horse on this bit and my Paint will never know it as I prefer snaffles always always always, but in this one case, my mare simply does best with it. And I have tried DOZENS of diff bits and even a hackamore. This bit in her mouth is the only thing that makes her go head down and relaxed on the trail and listen to me when she gets snorty. 

I'm sure she could be reschooled but after 14 years and semi-retirement, I really couldn't be bothered. I don't argue that this isn't a bad bit but I DO argue with "no horse could ever possibly like or go well in this bit". Perhaps not for high performence like reining or barrels no, but it serves its purpose well for us out on the trails.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> *I will put myself out to be flamed and state my Arabs always rode better in tom thumbs than curbs. I don't know why. Someone made me put a curb on my old Arab once and she almost went over just from touching the reins. *
> 
> I do a lot with my Arab mare and its all in a french link snaffle - jumping, Dressage, gaming. However, out on the trail she gets silly with other horses and in a snaffle, she will fight me tooth and nail sometimes. Using the tom thumb allows me to go on a loose rein 99% of the time and when she acts up, gives me a little wiggle to let her know prancing like a knob is not an option.
> 
> ...


A Tom Thumb IS a curb bit.


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## MAG1723 (Jul 24, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> You seem to do a lot with your horse, that's great, I think that keeps their minds fresh.
> In how many of these events are you neck reining or using a direct/open rein like if using a snaffle? That should be a consideration when choosing a bit along with some of the other suggestions made, mouth conformation, horse's preference, event and capability of your horse and you. You may need a couple different bits to accommodate each style of riding your doing.



Most of the events I neck rein. ( other then English ) I am teaching her to neck rein though. She is doing very good, but there is that odd moment were she says " ya right mommy:-x" and she starts to walk in a completely different direction, were I cant get her back without using two hands. I would like to switch bits for gymkhanas because I often have to pull her the way I want but I don't want to hurt her ( b/c of the TTB ) I try not to go two handed because a TT is a shank ( i believe:?: ) and the whole leverage thing gets all wonky. And I can make a habit out of that and I don't want to. Thanks for all your help everyone! You are all so nice:thumbsup:


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I am perfectly aware that a TT is a curb bit. For sake of arguement, I assumed we all knew what I was referring to when I said TT and curb but for anyone confused, I was referring to a non jointed mouthpiece curb.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I am perfectly aware that a TT is a curb bit. For sake of arguement, I assumed we all knew what I was referring to when I said TT and curb but for anyone confused, I was referring to a non jointed mouthpiece curb.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But it's important to be accurate when it comes to bits, as a newbie on here might be reading this and then think a Tom Thumb is not a curb....when it is.


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