# Negra's Navicular



## KigerQueen

So today My 18-20 year old arab got diagnosed with moderate navicular. my farrier (Father in Law) broke his leg last year so her trimming has been somewhat erratic the past few months after his surgery. So long story short she was at 7 weeks today and her toes are a mess. 

So vet said to trim her toes short, like hack them off. Shorter than we would normally want and to keep her heels long. he gave me 40 days of anti-inflammatories to keep her on and see how she does. 

If anyone has knowledge/experience on this please chime in.


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## Smilie

Yes, you want short toes, but only backed up as far as live sole dictates, and you want low heels (not long under run heels
Your vet might be trying to simulate the old shoing treatment for navicular, where the heels are wedged. This has been dis proven as being the correct approach, long term, as it will give some short term relief, but actually accelerate the disease itself
You can google some of the research findings, concerning Navicular and Dr Robert Bowker. Basically, you want the back of that foot functioning, with a healthy frog on the ground


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## KigerQueen

the healthy frog is the issue. i have owned this horse for 4 years and she has never grown a healthy frog on the front end. she gets halfway there then she sheds them all off. Ill look into her heals. she dose not grow alot of heal. so we will likely do a slightly higher heel and a short toe. like the pic of her back foot.

Thank you for the heal info. how short we talking on the heal?


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## dkb811

So sorry your horse was diagnosed with navicular.I know very little about it other than it's painful. 
I need to read up on it..not even sure what causes it!
Wishing you all the best!


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## tinyliny

Can anyone explain what that Xray shows? I don't know what I'm supposed to be looking for, in terms of Navicular.


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## KigerQueen

This is what a healthy hoof looks like with a healthy navicular bone.








its suposed to be more rounded/anvil shaped. Negra's has what look like hooks or is more cowboy shaped. that is the bone remodeling and that is whats causing the pain. there are quite a few factors that can cause navicular. one article i read was talking about how the soft tissue can only take so many vibrations before the bones start taking damage. and with her not having a frog there is less soft tissue to absorb the vibrations.

I am thinking of putting boots over her shoes with padding in them to simulate a frog. she has never had healthy frogs in her fronts. they always fall off. the healthiest they where was with shoes (idk how that works). i have some pics. they have always looks sad though. And yes i was cleaning her feet daily they just kinda grow odly.


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## dkb811

Thanks, I do see the difference now. With Smilie's suggestion, I did find this.

Dr. Robert Bowker on Navicular Disease | The Naturally Healthy Horse


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## KigerQueen

yes i was looking at that. sadly my mare has been barefoot for over a year and the only thing her feet have done is deform, chipp and she crushed her heals. Most people dont breed for hoof quality and idk what the mare owner was breeding for when they bred Negra's sire and dam. My mare was barefoot for over 3 years when i got her and it did her no favors. she is A LOT better with shoes. i would rather keep her barefooted but its just doing her no good. the vet said shoes so ill go for it. untill i can find a way for her to not destroy her feet. 


Im leary on keeping boots on her because she is "special". she has peed in her boots before (backs though) but she has this thing about peeing and then standing in the puddle. I would do the RX boot but last one i used one if i walked further than 2ft away she tried to run away from her foot... last thing i need is her flipping over in a moment of arab inspired brilliance... I dont want to spend $70 on a pair of boots that i cant use because my mare is being "special".



Getting back to pads. What material could i use to simulate a frog? I was thinking easy boot (idk why she is fine with them) over hoof with shoe and padding where the frog is supposed to be. would that stimulate blood flow to where the frog is?


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## Yogiwick

As far as her being special. Just let her get over it.

I don't understand why you want boots AND shoes.


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## KigerQueen

because the boots are temporary. like a cuple weeks temporary. and she she misshapes her hooves horribly without shoes. these pics are 3-4 weeks apart. you can see the damage she dose to her feet without them.


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## Smilie

Well, I can see a scar that runs through her coronary band, thus you will always have a hoof wall defect there. You also have to keep the wall blended in there, with the rest of the hoofwall, using a rasp
The wall flaring posterior to that crack, is the cause of the stress, causing her hoof to break off at ground level
Look at the bottom pic also, and see how the last weight baring area at the back of that foot has moved forward
If you kept a good bevel on those hooves, and kept up with that flare, she would do much better barefoot, far as her hooves getting that beat up look


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## Smilie

KigerQueen said:


> the healthy frog is the issue. i have owned this horse for 4 years and she has never grown a healthy frog on the front end. she gets halfway there then she sheds them all off. Ill look into her heals. she dose not grow alot of heal. so we will likely do a slightly higher heel and a short toe. like the pic of her back foot.
> 
> Thank you for the heal info. how short we talking on the heal?



In the picture, heel height does not look bad, and you don't want to lower it beyond live sole.
My question is, how long does you vet want to keep those heels, and the toes look short enough, almost dubbed already. 
You said that your vet suggested 'chopping the toes back, and leaving heels high, so that mental picture almost suggested a club foot , to my mind.

Here are the links to some articles on Pete Ramey's site, that will answer your questions better than I can, complete with pictures for clarification

Frog Trim

Cornet

Navicular Syndrome


Not suggesting a trim is going to cure true navicular bony changes, but there are medications that have proven efficacy in many cases, an don of those drugs is Tilidren

FDA Provides Equine Veterinarians with Important Information about TILDREN and OSPHOS for Navicular Syndrome in Horses

Tildren, the Magical Product against Lameness?! | eurodressage


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## loosie

OK so firstly, I was hoping Patty or someone might chime in, as I'm not that good at reading xrays. Not sure these show quite enough detail either - did the vet get different angle rads, to show the rest of the nav. region? 

Tiny or whoever asked, changes in shape to the navicular bone can be various & sundry, depending on degree and chronicness of the issue. There are usually tiny 'spurs' or erosions & such visible on this sort of xray. ***The navicular bone itself is but one place to look at though! Damage from issues that cause strain to the nav. bone(IOW damage to bones is a PRODUCT not a CAUSE, is a WHOLE FOOT, not just a heel issue) also happens to P3, distal end of P2 and around the extensor process of P3, frequently leading to low articular ringbone(I've put an arrow pointing to that damage evident on rads).

I've roughly edited one of the rads to illustrate what I see/what's needed. Main thing is the angle of the bony column - quite 'broken back' and the Ground surface of P3 is actually slightly lower at the heel. Even with an 8 degree rotation(my cut & turned bit), which puts the ground surface of P3 on a better angle, it's not quite straight. 

The excess strain and wear from these angles being chronic(hasn't just happened since your FIL's broken leg, by a long shot) causes the damage to the extensor region and the navicular bone sits too low against the P2/P3 joint and there is constant pressure on it from the DDFT being tightly pulled over it constantly - it forces the nav bone to wear against the other bones.

The green lines mark *roughly* where I'd likely trim, taking little height off the heels, but 'bringing them back' a lot, and of course dealing with the excessive toe. The yellow fuzzy area is to indicate padding under the DC that will be needed to help change angles.

Oh & also want to say that it's easy to misconstrue things, esp with 3rd hand info that may not have been well understood, so (trying) not to assume about the vet, but IF he meant to let heel walls grow longer in an attempt to raise the angles, then I STRONGLY disagree with this - that is 'old school' & will only exacerbate the issues. 

I think I'd be most concerned about the articular damage to the extensor area most in these rads, which while 'navicular' is generally treatable, is something that may not be.


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## Jana F

poor girl! Thank you for sharing though, and everyone else with the links, good info.


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## loosie

First, forgot to comment that just giving anti inflammatories is *at best* going to take the edge of only, in the short term only, if that. And have side effects and do absolutely nothing for the problems.

From the rads, earlier pics, and the bare pic you included in the post below, it's just not a fact that your horse 'doesn't grow heel' - there is a ****load of excess heel, but it's crushed forward. 

In the post with the diagram & some other xray, and the overgrown(excessively heeled) bare sole pic, it appears you've included those first 2 pics as an eg of healthy hooves? If so, beg to differ. For one, they both show a lack of caudal foot development(in diagram labled 'plantar cushion'), as your horse also has. 



> that is the bone remodeling and that is whats causing the pain.


NO! That is the PRODUCT of the damage, not the cause. Although of course, the worse bone damage is, the bigger the likelihood of it contributing to further pain.



> how the soft tissue can only take so many vibrations before the bones start taking damage. and with her not having a frog there is less soft tissue to absorb the vibrations.


Forget the frog. That's just the outer skin. But yes, living(not nec soft) tissue doesn't deal well with *high frequency* vibrations, such as the pounding of metal shoes on hard surfaces. Turns soft tissue to 'hamburger meat', to quote a relevant source. And yes, inadequate *& underdeveloped*(or hamburgered) Digital cushions & lateral cartilages do not have the ability to absorb energy/shock very well, so the joints & bones & tendons cop more. So for that reason, as well as aligning the bony column, the horse is crying out for frog/heel support/cushioning.



> because the boots are temporary. like a cuple weeks temporary. and she she misshapes her hooves horribly without shoes. these pics are 3-4 weeks apart. you can see the damage she dose to her feet without them.


Still confused, what do you perceive is the point of boots for 2 weeks?? And if you're going on about not spending money on boots, but you're talking of using them WITH shoes?? No, having the horse shod conventionally or otherwise peripherally loaded(can happen regardless of rim shoes) will *reduce* the circulation so therefore ability for growth & healing, not increase it.

And again, it's not bare or boots that cause her feet to get 'misshapen'. No, it's not being bare that has caused that damage in the least. Except on a cosmetic, superficial level.

You have also not answered whether the horse actually needs boots full time - you might be getting carried away with irrelevant worries if she doesn't need boots in the paddock anyway. That she peed in her boot once is pretty much a non-issue. That she stands in pools of pee is a big issue, that I'd deal with. But that sounds like one more thing that boots over shoes would be handy for - if you can't remove her from the wee area, at least if she's in boots, hooves will be kept dry above.


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## jazzy475

loosie said:


> First, forgot to comment that just giving anti inflammatories is *at best* going to take the edge of only, in the short term only, if that. And have side effects and do absolutely nothing for the problems.
> 
> From the rads, earlier pics, and the bare pic you included in the post below, it's just not a fact that your horse 'doesn't grow heel' - there is a ****load of excess heel, but it's crushed forward.
> 
> ^^^^ Oh man i love that, it says what i wanted to say.:clap: Wish i could of liked that post like 10 times. :wink:


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## loosie

For some reason, the pics of (I gather) Negra's feet in your earlier post didn't come up to elaborate on before. So... starting with the bare one, if you mapped that foot, you will see just how far out of kilter it is(I'm guessing Patty would call it a grade 2-3, but just learning the 'scoring' myself...) It's obviously overgrown, although the toes are worn to current sole level on ground surface. The frogs are also overgrown & look thrushy. They grow in 'layers' like that when they're not getting the support they need & that's probably why you're seeing so much shedding, as each layer periodically falls off.

The shod hooves are very badly balanced, with long forward toes & no support for the feet(classic eg of what you DON'T want) but can't tell you anything about heels, as can't see from that angle. It appears they're quite a lot shorter, and yes, it seems she has little substance to her frogs in these pics, but I imagine it's after they've shed, and the shorter heels mean her feet aren't 'reaching' for ground pressure as much.


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## Smilie

The x-rays and the actual pictures of the feet, just don't look like they are of the same foot to me. The long toe is very obvious on the x-ray, and on the shod solar views,where there is more hoof in front of the apex of the frog, then behind it.
I just don't see that toe in the first barefoot pic, matching the x-rays 
On the last barefoot pic, one can see the heel becoming under run, and see a lot of false sole. Maybe that false sole is mis leading, and it should be removed and then some hoof mapping done
The frog needs to be healthy and on the ground, as well as the foot having a healthy and well developed digital cushion and lateral cartilages
In fact, farriers working with Dr R Bowker, have modified their shoing, to allow the frog to have ground contact
I used to believe that an under developed digital cushion could still , with correct rehabilitative work, be 'normalized , or developed. According to Dr Stephan O Grady, once that digital cushion is gone, it's gone for good

Bowker's research has shown that the frog must be on the ground. He emphasizes that in order to get the frog resting on the ground, the farrier must gradually lower the heel. When the heel is not on the ground, the foot will start to contract and get smaller, similar to a woman wearing "high heeled" shoes. 

Here is the link to Dr Bowker's physicological trim

http://www.healthyhoof.com/articles/BarefootList/BowkerPhysiologicalTrim.html


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## KigerQueen

the sacred hoof is her back left. i mostly have pics of that because her fronts have been a non issue until now. i was using it as a reference as how we want the hoof to look more like, less toe but not crazy heal. 

As for the shoed pics that was after fil had broke his leg so she went about 9 weeks without a trim, that was after the trim and her getting shoes on.

as for the pics of her frog, that is all before her shed. when i mean she has no frog i mean its a concave space where it should be. Freaked my farrier out and still dose at times when he is trimming. 

HEr feet in the pics where from her being in her stall and a grass turnout. no rocks, no hard ground. she will still chip above the sole and has even bled at one point. with shoes that dose not happen and her feet maintain their shape. bear they just fall apart. 

I know boots over the shoes sounds weird but its to add support and temp padding. if i just add a pad/wedg all i see is it turning into a nasty bacteria playground. she love her pee spot. when she had a 12x12 stall that was bone dry with a 12X20 run, she would stand in her pee spot in the run. she has a thing about wet and its doing horrible things to her feet. along with the fact she turns her stall into a bog within a week it dose not help. Im worried about her peeing in the boots or getting wet in there because her feet are in enough trouble, i dont need to add to the growing list. 

the goal is to have her frog hit the ground with the shoe. they dont mess with her frog as there is normally nothing to mess with. he tries to clean it up sometimes but the entire thing just flakes off. 

If you think his shoeing is bad you'd cry if you saw the other farriers around here. Horses are almost always lame, their shoes horrid. one of the "trimmers" started trimming so much sole off the horse is lame for about 2 weeks after the trim and is blowing an abscess (same farrier caused abscess in 12 of the horses i know he trims. Cant be a coincidence considering half are boarded elsewhere). FIL is the only farrier in the area who can say they did not lame a horse. If i could trust another farrier i would but i have been there done that and dont want to ride that bronc again.

here are some pics i have of her fronts.


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## KigerQueen

here are a few more i dug up.
first one is her first bare foot trim in april. 

next is a pic of her feet in august.

Third is from september. Her stall has flooded a bit and she was standing in mud for about a week. there was nothing i could do since the moment more then 1 square foot was damp in peoples stalls the flooded to the try out stalls, leaving my mare in hers and i could not bury it in enough shavings to soak it all the way up.

forth is from january.

The fifth is how she LOVEs to stand 80% of the time. Hence why she is making her one hoof curve.

and the last is the first time we put a shoe on her back hoof. the crack closes up more with shoes, she walks more solid (without shoes i cant feel her back end, its like im only riding on half a horse or she is walking on eggshells. with them it feels like she might actually know how to use her engine).


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## loosie

Agree Smilie, that pics & rads don't all appear to correlate. Those shod pics for eg look far different hooves to the overgrown bare one above them.



Smilie said:


> I used to believe that an under developed digital cushion could still , with correct rehabilitative work, be 'normalized , or developed. According to Dr Stephan O Grady, once that digital cushion is gone, it's gone for good


Yeah, I do think it depends - is it just underdeveloped or is it 'hamburgered'? Is the horse in question mature? But yeah, you can't expect miracles, EVEN with Bob Bowker onside:winkoh I'm hurting... he, Kerry Ridgeway & other amazing people are doing a conference over here this weekend AND I COULDN'T GO!!! AAAARGH!) and IF the DC could become better, it isn't going to happen with a pen kept horse anyway. So I think it's safe to assume Negra isn't going to grow strong, healthy feet, will always need extra support now. But that's not to say it can't be improved, if good mechanics can finally be put in motion.



> Bowker's research has shown that the frog must be on the ground. He emphasizes that in order to get the frog resting on the ground, the farrier must gradually lower the heel.


But the catch is in this situation, is the the feet are too low caudally already, while the walls are still to long. The foot needs to be *raised* in the heel, but the walls still must be 'lowered'.


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## KigerQueen

ok so for my farrier's knowledge (and mine) dose someone have photo examples of what her hooves should look like? i understand we dont want a long heal, but we want a short toe. im having a hard time visualizing that. 

as for her being in a pen, their 25 year old navajo pony has never lived in turnout for about 26 years and has been fine (though it kinda sad but its az boarding). I have been trying to get them out (though negra is on mandatory stall rest for about 3 weeks) at least 5 times a week into the arena, they just kinda stand thee though. The long term goal is to get property with a cuple of turnouts where they can be outside all day. sadly negra might not have a turnout partners since said navajo pony has been known to run horses though fences or cause vet bills(only horse that mare gets along with is rocket, negra's bf).


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## loosie

KigerQueen said:


> ok so for my farrier's knowledge (and mine) dose someone have photo examples of what her hooves should look like? i understand we dont want a long heal, but we want a short toe. im having a hard time visualizing that.


Keiger, I attached that rad markup didn't I?? And I'm sure it's not the only one. And you will find many, many(many) egs elsewhere too, on any good hoofcare site. And if your farrier needs to be told how to do basic stuff like that, please reconsider letting him shoe your horse!!!



> as for her being in a pen, their 25 year old navajo pony has never lived in turnout for about 26 years and has been fine


Poor horses! Please don't try to justify it just because 'it is done'. And how do you know 'he is fine'?? Does that mean his environment hasn't effected his tough, rock crunching feet? His fitness? His wellbeing? You thought Negra was 'fine' too.



> sadly negra might not have a turnout partners since said navajo pony has been known to run horses though fences or cause vet bills(only horse that mare gets along with is rocket, negra's bf).


Yes, animals kept in solitary, asocial environments for ever often become antisocial. But why on earth does that mean you'd need to keep your horse in solitary.


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## Smilie

Well that explains my confusion!
Xrays were of the front feet and the bare profile shots were of the back feet!!!!!

I was wondering why in the heck the x-rays showed a very long toe, while that profile shot showed a toes that appeared to have a decent tight profile, and toe not stretched , as the x-rays indicated!


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## Smilie

But the catch is in this situation, is the the feet are too low caudally already, while the walls are still to long. The foot needs to be *raised* in the heel, but the walls still must be 'lowered'.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you can't work both ends at the same time, or you wind up spinning your wheels, thus the toe needs to be backed up first, and that alone gets the heels more under the horse. You also have to hav ethe back of that foot healthy enough , or padded, whatever, to encourage heel first landing
Of course, you are working against any re- rehabilitation the minute you confine a horse and limit movement


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## KigerQueen

i hate the fact she is stalled but unless i want to spend over $350 for boarding one horse (who gets along with very few other horses). and have to drive over an hour to see her, she has to be stalled. and she would get solitary for a bit, id switch rocket between the two mares. out here most people dont think its safe to turn horses out together (my fiance watched a horse's shoulder get shattered). he is leery but fine with it if they get along. 

And who would you sugest shoe my horse? i have been quoted by 3 farriers over the $200 range just because of the crack in her hoof. now if i tell then navicular its going to get ALOT higher. i cant afford that, feed AND board every 4 weeks! and again, the farriers out here are crap. FIL is WILLING to LEARN and take peoples opinions into consideration. hence why i asked. there is no farrier school out here, no regulation or anything. i could buy a stand, nippers and a rasp and start shoeing horses tomorrow if i want. He talked to the vet and he has looked at the xrays. he is spending any free time he has reading up on navicular and looking up anything he can on it to find the best way to work with it. non of the horses he has ever had have navicular. and he has had quite a few and he keeps horses for life. so is he personally experienced in it, no. is he willing to learn? yes. am i going to put myself into dept just because a farrier can spew some fancy crap and then mess up my mares feet further? No.


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## trailhorserider

KigerQueen said:


> And who would you sugest shoe my horse? i have been quoted by 3 farriers over the $200 range just because of the crack in her hoof. now if i tell then navicular its going to get ALOT higher. i cant afford that, feed AND board every 4 weeks! and again, the farriers out here are crap. FIL is WILLING to LEARN and take peoples opinions into consideration. hence why i asked. there is no farrier school out here, no regulation or anything. i could buy a stand, nippers and a rasp and start shoeing horses tomorrow if i want. He talked to the vet and he has looked at the xrays. he is spending any free time he has reading up on navicular and looking up anything he can on it to find the best way to work with it. non of the horses he has ever had have navicular. and he has had quite a few and he keeps horses for life. so is he personally experienced in it, no. is he willing to learn? yes. am i going to put myself into dept just because a farrier can spew some fancy crap and then mess up my mares feet further? No.


 
I grew up in Phoenix and one of the colleges down there (I'm not sure if it was Scottsdale Community College or Paradise Valley Community College) had a Farrier Science course. That's where I learned to shoe. I shod my own horses for several years and then just went to barefoot. Easier to maintain! But anyway, that course was so worthwhile! 1/2 of it was bookwork and 1/2 was working on cadavear legs.

The cool part was, you were taught by a really skilled farrier and he looked over your work. If you had a real horse, you could bring it in and get hands-on help while the other students shod cadavear legs. 

I don't know if they still offer that, but it would give you (or FIL or whomever) continued education and help with your specific horse. 

When I lived in the Valley my horses were boarded in pens. And yeah, me and everyone else figured they would break a leg if turned out together. And now we live in northern Arizona and my guys still live in a pen (albeit a bit larger) and are living together. Horses enjoy being together so much, they are meant to be herd animals. Not all of them are good herd companions, but if you have two that are best friends (like my mare and her son) then keeping them together is one of the best things you can do.  They are meant to live together.

One of the sucky things about Arizona that other people don't understand is that you just don't have pasture or large turnouts unless you are pretty wealthy. I would say the average horse owner has to keep their horses in pens, at least if they board. It's not like you have pasture unless you own a lot of acreage and can irrigate it or something.


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## KigerQueen

idk if scotsdale still offers it but ill look into pv. Its sad there are no turnouts here. my mare is in one of the largest stalls so she can at least move around. there are 16hh horses LIVING in 14X16 stalls. I am in the city so i have to deal with city boarding. my board is quite cheep for a larger stall then most places. the only places with turnouts are show barns in scottsdale. so thats almost an hour drive (so over $20 in gas there and back) AND $400-$600 for board. I ALMOST make that much a month with my current job (that took me two years to find). So until other things come into play i have to work with what i have. and i have a willing farrier who loves my horse and wants to do good by her. I have a 14x30 stall, and a weekly paycheck to pay for feeding 3 horses and board for 1 (and the $100 in gas a month just to get to and from work every 4 days).


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## Smilie

Well, my IR horse has to be dry lotted when the grass is up. She is then in large corral, where I had the topsoil removed, and replaced with crushed gravel.
I am also then fanatical about riding her almost daily, or at at lunging her days that I have no time to ride.
Circumstances have a way of being what they are, but that does not change the fact that one of the main factors, besides diet and a good hoof trim program, for healthy feet is movement. There just is no way around that fact, and you can neither trim or shoe yourself out of that requirement.


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> because the boots are temporary. like a cuple weeks temporary. and she she misshapes her hooves horribly without shoes. these pics are 3-4 weeks apart. you can see the damage she dose to her feet without them.


But if they do the same thing why have both?

Were her shoes just pulled in the first pic? Doesn't look it.

Sorry I'm just confused lol.


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## Smilie

KigerQueen said:


> i hate the fact she is stalled but unless i want to spend over $350 for boarding one horse (who gets along with very few other horses). and have to drive over an hour to see her, she has to be stalled. and she would get solitary for a bit, id switch rocket between the two mares. out here most people dont think its safe to turn horses out together (my fiance watched a horse's shoulder get shattered). he is leery but fine with it if they get along.
> 
> And who would you sugest shoe my horse? i have been quoted by 3 farriers over the $200 range just because of the crack in her hoof. now if i tell then navicular its going to get ALOT higher. i cant afford that, feed AND board every 4 weeks! and again, the farriers out here are crap. FIL is WILLING to LEARN and take peoples opinions into consideration. hence why i asked. there is no farrier school out here, no regulation or anything. i could buy a stand, nippers and a rasp and start shoeing horses tomorrow if i want. He talked to the vet and he has looked at the xrays. he is spending any free time he has reading up on navicular and looking up anything he can on it to find the best way to work with it. non of the horses he has ever had have navicular. and he has had quite a few and he keeps horses for life. so is he personally experienced in it, no. is he willing to learn? yes. am i going to put myself into dept just because a farrier can spew some fancy crap and then mess up my mares feet further? No.


I feel for your situation, but I also find so much flaws in thinking.
First, I hate it when people consider a horse 'too valuable to turn out, or they can't risk having a horse learn to be part of a herd
Both in the end, compromise the soundness of that horse.
If you have safe fencing, horses do learn to establish their place in a herd
Conversely, those horses kept separated for the wrong reasons, don't develope the social skills, the healthy skeletal system or feet, and also their mental coping and learning process is hampered
So what happens?
Well, we can treat them for ulcers, try to hold their feet together with shoing, but in the end, we then are jsut running to apply that bandaid, when the horse did not have to go down that road to begin with, allowed to be a horse
Even my show horses get turn out
Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine
As on equine vet , who spoke at a Horse Breeder and Owner's conference stated, that the ability for a horse to move almost constantly is integral to their physical, digestive , hoof and mental health
He went on to say , that horses have a great ability to adapt, but we as owners must be careful never to exceed their ability to adapt
When conferring with a vet, about your horse, remember just like GP can't keep up with all branches of medicine, so is it with vets. They get a very basic hoof care taught in school, and based often on old methods
Thus, confer at least with an equine vet,, and better yet, one who has specialized in equine podiatry
I take anything a general vet says about feet with a grain of sand!


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## Yogiwick

Smilie said:


> The x-rays and the actual pictures of the feet, just don't look like they are of the same foot to me. The long toe is very obvious on the x-ray, and on the shod solar views,where there is more hoof in front of the apex of the frog, then behind it.
> I just don't see that toe in the first barefoot pic, matching the x-rays
> On the last barefoot pic, one can see the heel becoming under run, and see a lot of false sole. Maybe that false sole is mis leading, and it should be removed and then some hoof mapping done
> The frog needs to be healthy and on the ground, as well as the foot having a healthy and well developed digital cushion and lateral cartilages
> In fact, farriers working with Dr R Bowker, have modified their shoing, to allow the frog to have ground contact
> I used to believe that an under developed digital cushion could still , with correct rehabilitative work, be 'normalized , or developed. According to Dr Stephan O Grady, once that digital cushion is gone, it's gone for good
> 
> Bowker's research has shown that the frog must be on the ground. He emphasizes that in order to get the frog resting on the ground, the farrier must gradually lower the heel. When the heel is not on the ground, the foot will start to contract and get smaller, similar to a woman wearing "high heeled" shoes.
> 
> Here is the link to Dr Bowker's physicological trim
> 
> Healthy Hoof - Solutions for Barefoot Performance


Not going back to check but I believe the x-rays are of both fronts and the scarred foot (only one pictured?) is back. Hence not matching up.


----------



## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> the sacred hoof is her back left. i mostly have pics of that because her fronts have been a non issue until now. i was using it as a reference as how we want the hoof to look more like, less toe but not crazy heal.
> 
> As for the shoed pics that was after fil had broke his leg so she went about 9 weeks without a trim, that was after the trim and her getting shoes on.
> 
> as for the pics of her frog, that is all before her shed. when i mean she has no frog i mean its a concave space where it should be. Freaked my farrier out and still dose at times when he is trimming.
> 
> HEr feet in the pics where from her being in her stall and a grass turnout. no rocks, no hard ground. she will still chip above the sole and has even bled at one point. with shoes that dose not happen and her feet maintain their shape. bear they just fall apart.
> 
> I know boots over the shoes sounds weird but its to add support and temp padding. if i just add a pad/wedg all i see is it turning into a nasty bacteria playground. she love her pee spot. when she had a 12x12 stall that was bone dry with a 12X20 run, she would stand in her pee spot in the run. she has a thing about wet and its doing horrible things to her feet. along with the fact she turns her stall into a bog within a week it dose not help. Im worried about her peeing in the boots or getting wet in there because her feet are in enough trouble, i dont need to add to the growing list.
> 
> the goal is to have her frog hit the ground with the shoe. they dont mess with her frog as there is normally nothing to mess with. he tries to clean it up sometimes but the entire thing just flakes off.
> 
> If you think his shoeing is bad you'd cry if you saw the other farriers around here. Horses are almost always lame, their shoes horrid. one of the "trimmers" started trimming so much sole off the horse is lame for about 2 weeks after the trim and is blowing an abscess (same farrier caused abscess in 12 of the horses i know he trims. Cant be a coincidence considering half are boarded elsewhere). FIL is the only farrier in the area who can say they did not lame a horse. If i could trust another farrier i would but i have been there done that and dont want to ride that bronc again.
> 
> here are some pics i have of her fronts.


I'm thinking if she chips from that on stall/grass that you have bigger issues than lack of shoes.

Haven't said this yet but I'm guessing standing in pee isn't helping the frog issues..


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## KigerQueen

its not a too valuable thing. our arena is small. so not really enough room to turn horses out. also we have seen what happens when horses are asked to figure it out together in a small space. and its normally a vet bill and on a cuple of occasions pts. fiance's horse odie only gets along with their blm mustang. they play rough, they groom, the do normal horse things. but with other horses odie is dangerous. he wont kick, he just tried to remove their ears from their heads and has nearly succeeded a few times. negra has a scar on her ear from just walking to close to his stall. The pony only likes rocket, she wont really groom him but she will use him for shade or run around with him (or get ****y and try to kick his head off). she has ran another horse through a fence putting it out of riding for months. she also has a thing for attacking paints. she sees one and she wants to kill it. she almost ran all 16.2hh of odie though a fence (she is 14hh). its a safety thing with only turning her out with rocket. the last time i turned negra out with a pushy horse she nearly fractured his hip. she just sat there squealing and kicking him. she had backed him into a corned. poor guy was covered in bloody welts and was lame for a cuple of weeks.
the property we board at is maybe 2+acres. so they have a TINY space to be turned out with each other. i would risk it if i had A LOT more room for horses to run away from each other. but as it is now there is not enough room for them to get away from each other.

When i got negra she had 3 acres of pasture to run on with 2 OTTBs. she wanted NOTHING to do with them. she tried to stay away from them and she still has a few scars from them. I would have kept her there but i moved almost 45min north so i moved her. 

her feet got a little better on senior and a mag supplement. but she still cant keep them normal.
the goal is to get property, but now my short term goal is to pay board this month and make sure the horses dont starve on BO's feedings.


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## Yogiwick

I get that we are in different (opposite?) areas so am NOT blaming you just comparing. $350 for an hours drive is absurd. My friend is spending $850 for a drive that takes her over an hour with traffic (don't know for sure..hour and a half?). Quality show barn? Easy $1500 plus. $200 for corrective shoeing? Sweet. Obviously the drive is relative but 1 hr plus is not uncommon around here. Way too expensive though lol.


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## jazzy475

KigerQueen said:


> its not a too valuable thing. our arena is small. so not really enough room to turn horses out. also we have seen what happens when horses are asked to figure it out together in a small space. and its normally a vet bill and on a cuple of occasions pts. fiance's horse odie only gets along with their blm mustang. they play rough, they groom, the do normal horse things. but with other horses odie is dangerous. he wont kick, he just tried to remove their ears from their heads and has nearly succeeded a few times. negra has a scar on her ear from just walking to close to his stall. The pony only likes rocket, she wont really groom him but she will use him for shade or run around with him (or get ****y and try to kick his head off). she has ran another horse through a fence putting it out of riding for months. she also has a thing for attacking paints. she sees one and she wants to kill it. she almost ran all 16.2hh of odie though a fence (she is 14hh). its a safety thing with only turning her out with rocket. the last time i turned negra out with a pushy horse she nearly fractured his hip. she just sat there squealing and kicking him. she had backed him into a corned. poor guy was covered in bloody welts and was lame for a cuple of weeks.
> the property we board at is maybe 2+acres. so they have a TINY space to be turned out with each other. i would risk it if i had A LOT more room for horses to run away from each other. but as it is now there is not enough room for them to get away from each other.
> 
> When i got negra she had 3 acres of pasture to run on with 2 OTTBs. she wanted NOTHING to do with them. she tried to stay away from them and she still has a few scars from them. I would have kept her there but i moved almost 45min north so i moved her.
> 
> her feet got a little better on senior and a mag supplement. but she still cant keep them normal.
> the goal is to get property, but now my short term goal is to pay board this month and make sure the horses dont starve on BO's feedings.



The sooner you get your own property the better,so your horses can have decent turnout. :wink:

I'am so glad i don't have to board my horses,their turned out 24/7 on 4 1/2 acres with free choice hay. Only time they see a stall is in bad weather.


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## loosie

This is gettingvery frustrating. 



KigerQueen said:


> i hate the fact she is stalled but unless i want to spend over $350


In some cases it may be unavoidable. That's one thing. I'm not judging that. It's quite another to justify & discount it as fine & dandy for the horse, which is what I objected to.



> And who would you sugest shoe my horse? i have been quoted by 3 farriers over the $200 range just because of the crack in her hoof. now if i tell then navicular its going to get ALOT higher. i cant afford that,


Keiger, please actually read all I've written(& I'm sure others have said same), because your continuing to ask the same questions tells me it's a waste of time to keep giving answers! But for the last time, in capitals, incase that gets through better, my strong suggestion is, IF YOU CAN'T ENSURE YOUR HORSE WILL BE SHOD APPROPRIATELY, *DO NOT SHOE IT!!!!!* 

But please don't go on about costs - you have to pay for quality jobs, and we're all in the 'real world', you're not alone, but the simple fact is, it doesn't matter hto your horse how rich or poor you are, only whether you can afford to look after him adequately. & if you can't afford it, IMO you should give the horse to someone that can.


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## Yogiwick

Yeah I agree, we get you want to do the best for your mare, but sometimes that requires a little more work.

Most post on the price differences here is again NOT meant to blame you, I was just finding it interesting, but it was ALSO to get you thinking about it a little more.

Completely agree, if you can't guarantee a proper shoe job don't do it. IM(limited) E feet that already have issues such as long and underrun get MUCH worse with shoes (I'm sure the farrier is relative to this but sounds like yours aren't amazing). Now loosie can correct me if I'm wrong, I'm all for doing you own horses feet, but I don't think a horse with preexisting potentially serious issues that already needs a lot of corrective work would benefit from this atm. Personally I wouldn't touch her feet with a 10 ft pole and would advise getting a LOT of training and experience (basically becoming a farrier) before doing this horse, but you need someone know. I'm not sure what you're going to do that your more experienced FIL (who is going to be your mentor? aka you will learn his way) isn't.

I think this may be a case of desperate times call for desperate measures.

And to be blunt, I COMPLETELY understand where you are coming from and am NOT blaming, but I think you need to step back and think of how much of her current condition comes from her current situation. This should be a wake up call to that. (Farrier, standing in pee spot, etc)

I think it's time for a real wake up call and being proactive. Again, there is definitely a time and place for being complacent and doing things yourself etc, but right now your mare NEEDS more. You need to decide if you are able to do it or not, as it WILL be difficult, and then figure out HOW.

I think the worse thing to do right now would be make her feet worse, and personally would be looking for a GOOD farrier, no matter what, and looking at boots.

I know this is a hard "slap in the face", we were all hoping it wasn't something serious. (hugs)

Personally I would be looking for a chiro/massage as well, but I am also not made of money and am lucky that my horses are sound. I don't know what I'd do in your situation.


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## KigerQueen

i have a friend who is a chiro so i can talk to her. the only "good" barefoot trimmer in the area has already said he doesn't want to touch her feet, and he has given advice on her feet to my farrier before. ill talk to him but he has a history of lameing horses and has admitted it. the only other trimmer i know of has already done my horse and acts like he has no idea who i am because he missed her feet up, and my mare sat on him. and who is their right mind would buy a 19+ year old arab for an advanced rider WITh Navicular? all i see for her is meat truck. id shooter myself before i let that happen.


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## Yogiwick

In terms of selling there may be a home out there. Yes you would need to be VERY particular but if that is a thought it may be something you should look into. Obviously not the first option but I do think it is an option.

I think addressing the way she stands and the muscle tenseness (while good anyways) may help the way she wears her feet and the stress currently on them.

If you have a friend who is good it may be worth doing. If you can't cut a deal obviously the feet are a priority.

I don't know if you specifically need a "barefoot trimmer" I feel like you're either good with feet or you aren't. You may need to travel a bit. Maybe someone (loosie/Patty?) could post some recommendations? There are a lot of horses in AZ there's got to be something.

If someone's not good forget they exist. And definitely don't get advice!

I wish I could help more...


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## KigerQueen

thats the issue. my fiance and i have watched over 6 Farriers and we have seen how they shoe. and its not pretty. and people sit there and wonder why their horses have feet issues. they chop OFF the heal and just slap a shoe on it. 

And out here there is a difference between shoers and trimmers. shoers trim to put a shoe on (and tend do do a crap trimm to get you to put shoes on). and trimmers only do barefoot trims. and as for traveling that is an issue. Fiance has a 3 horse that my lil truck cant even dream of pulling empty. and his truck has no brakes and FIL's transmission is about to fall through the floor. and i cant spend the gas to travel far every 4 weeks. i spend $25 a week on gas. i need to fill up every 4 days and im still going within normal farrier travel distance.

I have a friend who's paint has navicular changes. he currently is bare as well. if its the same farrier she has been using ill pass. when she had shoes on him his hooves where peeling like onions. her "trainer" has also been trimming him and she can kiss rocks. i may get arrested if she goes near my horse.

You may be saying how to do it but not being a shoer i honestly dont understand it. you can say lower the heals, or change the angle, but i need specific instructions. how much do we lower the heals, and what angle? all the horse owners that i know (minus Fiance and FIL) dont pay attention to what the farrier dose. i RARELY see a owner with the horse when its getting trimmed. the farriers get to the property, set up, and then go and get the horse out of its stall and tie it up themselves. and that was my introduction to horses. 

My farrier got tired of others lameing his so he started to do it himself. he has been doing it for over 20 years. that is longer than a few of the farriers in the area.

My best bet is the barefoot trimmer as he is the #1 choice of all the barefoot nutts in the area. then again that might be another reason not to use him.


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## KigerQueen

sorry if im being argumentative. i am under ALOT of stress. i have spent over $500 in the last 3 days in vet bills for my horse and my cat (so bye bye to ALL my money). my cat now needs prescription cat food (EXPENSIVE cat food) so she doesn't go into kidney failure. My horse is now diagnosed with navicular. i just patched my trucks flat tire and im getting hardly any hours at work to pay for any of it. and there is more personal money issues going on as well. Im being split 100 ways in 100 directions and dont have money for 80% of it. 

I MUST make what i have work. i do not want to but down an otherwise healthy horse. I have an farrier willing to work for the price of shoes to help me. I need pics, angles and diagrams. i do not understand the shoeing jargon so its kinda lost on me, and the rotated pic of the x ray i dont understand either (sorry but i honestly dont). You need to pretend im a total idiot and act like you are trying to explain it to an total idiot. FIL cant seem to work well with technology so i have to relay what you guys are explaining, so i have to understand it.

Finding a 18 yer old unregistered, trainwreck of an arab a home is hard. add then between march and october she turns into a half spooked mess that will try to run you over, bold and run for the hills (has to be chased down because she will NOT come back to food or other horses). is for an advanced confident rider, had the crack in her hoof that will make shoeing expensive and then add Navicular. She is NOT a companion horse as she dose not get along with most horses. she is not a kids horse and she is not a plod along trail pony, or a show horse. there are hundreds of good, well trained sound young horses going for under $1500. I wont be able to sell her for $500 (what i paid for her).


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## Yogiwick

If you were to get rid of her I would give her for free (no you won't make money) and look for an older teenager/young adult looking for a project. I'd consider something like that for myself. I really don't think she sounds so bad or needs so much as you think. What she does need is a lot of changes. No she won't be an easy sell (to a good home) but I don't think she's impossible. She needs training a good vet and a good farrier and I am questioning your financial ability as well as the availability of those things in your immediate area.

I don't feel you're being argumentative but I do think you're thinking negatively and giving excuses as opposed to ideas.

I can imagine how hard this is. I'm sorry to hear about your cat.


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## loosie

KigerQueen said:


> the only "good" barefoot trimmer in the area has already said he doesn't want to touch her feet, ...but he has a history of lameing horses


It also sounds like you don't know what a 'good' farrier is, if you're classing one that lames horses as good. Instead of adding up all the negatives of your situation, how bout going further afield to search for some positive solutions? Sounds like that might take more effort than you're willing to give tho. 



> who is their right mind would buy a 19+ year old arab for an advanced rider WITh Navicular? all i see for her is meat truck. id shooter myself before i let that happen.


Yep, I'd certainly consider it - tho as mentioned, looks like maybe articular ringbone as well, which is potentially more serious - BUT I would ensure I provided what she needed to become comfortable. If I couldn't provide that for her, and couldn't find a home that would, yep, I'd shoot her rather than leave her to suffer. It's not that she's 'beyond hope', but we all live in the real world & it sometimes takes more than an owner is willing/able to provide.


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## loosie

Don't know why I'm still spinning my wheels here, but perhaps what I say will help others with similar problems.



KigerQueen said:


> Fiance has a 3 horse that my lil truck cant even dream of pulling empty. and his truck has no brakes and FIL's transmission is about to fall through the floor. and i cant spend the gas to travel far every 4 weeks. i spend $25 a week on gas.


Sounds like it's all just way too hard(virtually anything anyone's said here, gets a diatribe of negatives from you about how impossible everything is) & so you might as well just throw in the towel now. But if you aren't ready to do that yet, did you know you can hire horse transport? Altho that'll cost more, so you will of course have to find some more income. You might also come up with some other positive solutions, if you start looking for them & stop giving all your attention to the 'can'ts'. 



> I have an farrier willing to work for the price of shoes to help me. I need pics, angles and diagrams. i do not understand the shoeing jargon so its kinda lost on me, and the rotated pic of the x ray i dont understand either (sorry but i honestly dont). You need to pretend im a total idiot and act like you are trying to explain it to an total idiot..


You are still not listening! *YOUR HORSE IS IN A SERIOUS STATE & NEEDS *_*KNOWLEDGEABLE AND SKILLED CARE*_, *not some learner willing to follow 3rd hand advice off the internet relayed through someone who doesn't understand it herself!!!!* And if you've read(& taken in) any of my or other's advice on specifics of hoof trimming, you would realise that it would be remiss of anyone to give exact measurements etc, just from a few hoof pics anyway, and not very smart of you to follow that advice to a 'T', without knowing what you're on about, if they did.

I just did a quick search of ELPO farriers and below is a list of a number of them in Az. Even includes Gene O, so it's absolutely not the case that there's no one good around!
*Ryan Holzer* *Scottsdale* *AZ* *85262*​ *USA*​ *605-391-4732*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *No* *Gene Ovnicek* *Whitman/NW Phoenix* *AZ* *85361*​ *USA*​ *719-429-4693*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *R. Tyler Basinger* *Benson* *AZ* *85602*​ *USA*​ *520-507-5884*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *No* Shawn Fimbres St. David AZ 85630​ USA​ 520-216-0708​ Yes Yes Yes No No *Brandon Nunn* *Cortaro* *AZ* *85652*​ *USA*​ *520-360-9134*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *No* *Eddie McKenzie* *Tucson* *AZ* *85736*​ *USA*​ *520-327-7437*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *No* *Kenny Welch* *Tuba City* *AZ* *86045*​ *USA*​ *928-401-6940*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *No* *Michael Zabinski* *Prescott (to Tucson)* *AZ* *86305*​ *USA*​ *208-859-0778*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Linda Black* *Prescott (to Tucson)* *AZ* *86305*​ *USA*​ *208-440-1907*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* Willie Begay Pinon AZ 86510​ USA​ 928-380-5989​ Yes Yes


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## Patty Stiller

> Yes I was looking at that. Sadly my mare has been barefoot for over a year and the only thing her feet have done is deform, chipp and she crushed her heals.


that is directly because of poor trimming, not hoof quality. And the deformities are directly causing the navicular problems by adding stress to all the tissues and joint surfaces inside the foot around the navicular bone.


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## Patty Stiller

And if those X rays and photos are only 7 weeks after the last trim, she has not been adequately trimmed for a long time. There is MONTHS of overgrowth in those hooves.


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## jazzy475

loosie said:


> Don't know why I'm still spinning my wheels here, but perhaps what I say will help others with similar problems.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like it's all just way too hard(virtually anything anyone's said here, gets a diatribe of negatives from you about how impossible everything is) & so you might as well just throw in the towel now. But if you aren't ready to do that yet, did you know you can hire horse transport? Altho that'll cost more, so you will of course have to find some more income. You might also come up with some other positive solutions, if you start looking for them & stop giving all your attention to the 'can'ts'.
> 
> 
> Loosie i see a trend here i don't always comment,no matter what advice is given there's a reason why not. Can't find a good farrier this one chops off heels and so on. Spent all the money on vet bills,i was in the same boat here just a week ago. Took me almost a year to find a farrier but i did, i never gave up, and said there aren't any good farriers around.
> 
> Life happens to all of us we choose how we deal with it,whether it be with being negative or finding positive. You either really want help or you don't,if you do,then put aside the reasons why you cant,and find a way to make it happen.
> 
> When there's a will there's a way its up to you in the end on what you do or don't do. :wink:


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## Horseychick87

Sorry everything is blowing up all at once, it's certainly not fun.

I do wonder after all the posts I've read and what you've said about the farriers and vet's in your area if there is a way that maybe some of the other boarders or local horse community could get together and do a vet/ farrier clinic with a better vet/ farrier, maybe meeting them halfway or something.
If you could find a ride this could be a great alternative and many vets and farriers like to do larger crowds at once anyways as it saves them a bunch of travel time and increases their profit as well as yours.

It's a long shot, but you could look into it, maybe get 6-10 people together (or however many the farrier if you could find one would willingly work on in one day and have a meeting place, say halfway in between. This way the group can split the 'farm call' and still see a more qualified professional? If not it could still be worth it to look into.


Also, for money (I've suggested it many times on here) look into selling plasma, here I get $25 per visit and can do it twice a week, so that's $50 per week, which comes out to $200 per month and sometimes they do 'bonuses' for long time contributors and will bump it up to $250-$300 per month. This would ease the burden a bit and only takes a couple of hours once you get your first few visits done. I do it to help with bills, lessons, and my cat. 
Not only do you make money, but you help provide something that is much needed by other people. So feel good feeling all around.

Just some suggestions to play around with.


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## Yogiwick

Yeah I know AZs a good sized state but I also know there's a TON of horses and upper end farms around there as well as just backyard horses and such.

In horse country I'm having trouble understanding why things are so difficult.

Out of curiosity I went through and googled all those cities and there's a pretty broad coverage.


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## greentree

Buy a rasp and start working on them yourself. I was paying a trimmer, and working on them in between. I felt like I needed to explain myself to him because they did not look the same. I bought a better rasp, and then a better pair of nippers, and cut out the trimmer. I am close to 60, and have 12 horses. It is not the easiest thing to do, but I dod not have to do them all at once, and I can do them when I feel they need to be done, instead of on a schedule, be it his or mine.

I had a stranger stop by to see the horses, and he said mine was the only place he had ever been where all the horses' hooves looked good!

You can do it yourself, trust me. Then you can make adjustments and find out what actually works.


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## KigerQueen

Well we trimmed and shoed her today. She was already walking better. she started walking heal first after 5 min of walking her. I know alot of you dont agree with my trimmer but if you want to spend over $500 a month on just 1 horse you go right ahead. I have been taking care of her quite fine these past 4 years and life decides to attack all at once. within the past 48 hours i have spend over $500. I haven't even payed this months board.

her fronts are at a 58 angle. We will bring them down to 55 ish (since fronts should be around 50-52). YEs the one heald is slung under but you cant fix that in one trim. not without hacking off her heal.


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## Yogiwick

Why did you do all 4?


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## loosie

greentree said:


> Buy a rasp and start working on them yourself.


I'm all for people learning to do it themselves. But it sounds like Keiger would be starting from very much 'scratch' and I don't think a lame horse with already chronically deformed hooves is a good idea for a learner. First necessity is for a person to gain a good grasp on the theory. Then comes learning to use the tools & basic maintenance trimming. Rehab or 'corrective' trimming is a whole nother level, as there are so many 'ifs & buts'.

Putting shoes on feet that are left so imbalanced AND NOT SUPPORTED UNDERNEATH is only going to cause further issues.


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## jazzy475

My navicular horse is shod with pads and a silicone put in between pad and hoof,so there's support. 

Shod with just rims shoes they wont stay sound for long,they need support under those hoofs. I pay 124 just for front shoes,but i know its a good shoe job and my horse is 100% sound. We put on 25 mile a day riding 6 days a week.:wink:


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## loosie

KigerQueen said:


> but if you want to spend over $500 a month on just 1 horse you go right ahead. I have been taking care of her quite fine these past 4 years and life decides to attack all at once.


It is also 'false economising' I think, to save your money on bad, cheap jobs, because you'll only end up giving it to the vet. Not to mention the continuing further damage the horse suffers. 

On the second note, it is a chronic, long term issue, and the 'all at once' is because it's just reached 'breaking point'. The straw that broke the camel. It's like saying 'there's never been anything wrong with my diet of junk food - I've been eating like that for years, but now suddenly, inexplicably, out of the blue, I've got type 2 diabetes'.



> her fronts are at a 58 angle. We will bring them down to 55 ish (since fronts should be around 50-52). YEs the one heald is slung under but you cant fix that in one trim. not without hacking off her heal.


You can indeed go a long way to addressing underrun heels in one trim, but yes, of course it requires trimming them appropriately. I guess the term 'hacking' is relative, but you have said yourself you haven't much of a clue about feet, so...

I'm curious where you came up with the proscribed angles? Did you get that from the vet/rad? And I gather you're talking dorsal wall angle(which is flared) not bone angle, as that obviously needs to be _raised_ at he heel. Yes, heel *walls* are very high & need lowering. How are you going to achieve both those necessities?


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## jazzy475

KigerQueen said:


> Well we trimmed and shoed her today. She was already walking better. she started walking heal first after 5 min of walking her. I know alot of you dont agree with my trimmer but if you want to spend over $500 a month on just 1 horse you go right ahead.
> 
> You don't have to pay 500 to shoe one horse and have a good job. I pay 124 to shoe one horse all 4 feet i shoe 2 trim 1 my bill is 283 every 4 weeks. I'am sure not made of money.
> 
> You can pay less for mediocre farrier work and possibly not keep your horse sound. Or pay more for good work and keep your horse sound alot longer. Navicular is progressive if not well managed it will progress faster,so think about that.:wink:
> 
> Couldn't edit last post but i meant i payed 124, for all four shoes not just fronts.
> 
> You seriously need to start educating yourself on hooves,knowledge is power.I'd also start educating yourself on navicular and the protocols for shoeing a navicular horse. :wink:


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## loosie

jazzy475 said:


> Navicular is progressive if not well managed


Yes, until relatively recently, it was thought of as an incureable death warrant. It is progressive & incurable if not well managed, so... your choice.


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## SueNH

Treating Navicular Syndrome without Horseshoes--thumbnail photos

I'm only going to say it once. I see lots wrong with that trim/shoe job.


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## jazzy475

loosie said:


> Yes, until relatively recently, it was thought of as an incureable death warrant. It is progressive & incurable if not well managed, so... your choice.



Iv got a good farrier,my horse doesn't have underrun heels, long toes. Also my horse is currently sound barefoot,just with proper trim. Doesn't require shoes to be sound. :wink:

My farrrier doesn't use old school methods for navicular horses she's up to date on latest ways.:wink: So think my horse will be sound for years to come...


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## KigerQueen

The farrier everyone uses for bearfoot trimming alread said he won't touch her hoves and he won't take more clients. People out here stand by there farriers even when their horses are almost 3 legged lame. And she is mostly shoed becase her back cracked hoof. The crack is startingto pull away and misshaping that hoof badly. With shoes we get that crack to close up more. And I know a little bout hooves thank you. I don't know internal workings but I know what angles th fronts and backs shoud be. She also hen long inbetwen trims s that did not help, along with standing in wet. 

If you think thouse feet are bad you would cray at the other 30 some horses where I board. I agree, her heals are still long. Next trim that will be adressed. 124 for shoes out here would only be front shoes. Most farriers if they can't just slap the shoe on, they will charge you $200. Every 4 weeks paing $200,then $100 for gas, $130 for board and $70 in food a mont I just can't swing. Now add my other bills. I cannot aford that. If I do my horse will be sound, but 100lbs underweight.


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## jazzy475

loosie said:


> Don't know why I'm still spinning my wheels here, but perhaps what I say will help others with similar problems.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like it's all just way too hard(virtually anything anyone's said here, gets a diatribe of negatives from you about how impossible everything is) & so you might as well just throw in the towel now. But if you aren't ready to do that yet, did you know you can hire horse transport? Altho that'll cost more, so you will of course have to find some more income. You might also come up with some other positive solutions, if you start looking for them & stop giving all your attention to the 'can'ts'.
> 
> 
> 
> You are still not listening! *YOUR HORSE IS IN A SERIOUS STATE & NEEDS *_*KNOWLEDGEABLE AND SKILLED CARE*_, *not some learner willing to follow 3rd hand advice off the internet relayed through someone who doesn't understand it herself!!!!* And if you've read(& taken in) any of my or other's advice on specifics of hoof trimming, you would realise that it would be remiss of anyone to give exact measurements etc, just from a few hoof pics anyway, and not very smart of you to follow that advice to a 'T', without knowing what you're on about, if they did.
> 
> I just did a quick search of ELPO farriers and below is a list of a number of them in Az. Even includes Gene O, so it's absolutely not the case that there's no one good around!
> *Ryan Holzer* *Scottsdale* *AZ* *85262*​ *USA*​ *605-391-4732*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *No* *Gene Ovnicek* *Whitman/NW Phoenix* *AZ* *85361*​ *USA*​ *719-429-4693*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *R. Tyler Basinger* *Benson* *AZ* *85602*​ *USA*​ *520-507-5884*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *No* Shawn Fimbres St. David AZ 85630​ USA​ 520-216-0708​ Yes Yes Yes No No *Brandon Nunn* *Cortaro* *AZ* *85652*​ *USA*​ *520-360-9134*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *No* *Eddie McKenzie* *Tucson* *AZ* *85736*​ *USA*​ *520-327-7437*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *No* *Kenny Welch* *Tuba City* *AZ* *86045*​ *USA*​ *928-401-6940*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *No* *Michael Zabinski* *Prescott (to Tucson)* *AZ* *86305*​ *USA*​ *208-859-0778*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Linda Black* *Prescott (to Tucson)* *AZ* *86305*​ *USA*​ *208-440-1907*​ *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* *Yes* Willie Begay Pinon AZ 86510​ USA​ 928-380-5989​ Yes Yes


And Loosie gave this list of good farriers or trimmers in AZ. Did you even bother to look at this list?? Sounds to me like you'v got one excuse after another on why not. :wink:


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## egrogan

KigerQueen said:


> Every 4 weeks paing $200,then $100 for gas, $130 for board and $70 in food a mont I just can't swing. Now add my other bills. I cannot aford that. If I do my horse will be sound, but 100lbs underweight.


I really think this is your answer to this situation. If you can't afford the costs of keeping the horse, then you just can't. It seems like you need to find another solution that can provide this horse, at this specific moment in time, the care that she needs. While I know $500 a month in horse costs seem to be more than you expected when you got the horse, the reality is that it costs what it costs (and as others have said, $500 a month for a boarded horse that you're not feeding off your own pasture is not an excessive monthly tab). Horses _are _expensive hobbies, and there have been many people (even on this forum) who have to unfortunately get out of the hobby when they can't afford it. It's not fair to the horse to chose between it being fed or being kept sound.


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## jazzy475

KigerQueen said:


> Most farriers if they can't just slap the shoe on, they will charge you $200. Every 4 weeks paing $200,then $100 for gas, $130 for board and $70 in food a mont I just can't swing. Now add my other bills. I cannot aford that. If I do my horse will be sound, but 100lbs underweight.



If you cant feed and keep her sound then you need to seriously concider the fact she needs a new home,that can. Your not being fair to her.:wink:


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## KigerQueen

So i got the watch the shoer that EVERYONE loves today in action. he trimmed a mare in the time i picked kine. did not even pick up a rasp. did NOT address the flaring, or the heals at all on this recently foundered horse. Then he slapped shoes on another. her hooves must have been 4 inches long. looks like he has the poor thing on stilts. this gue dose over 7 horses on the property and EVERYONE loves his work. 

Well if i gave up on my animals everytime i hit a money crises i would never own one. you all cannot say you never hit a hard time in your lives. i can afford my mare, and i dont afford anything else. this horse takes up 90% of my time and 90% of my paycheck. and she has for the past 4 years. Where im at, when people hear she has navicular they say "oh bless your soul" or "im sorry!". they then wonder when im going to put her down. people out in my area at least (who have owned horses for over 30 years) think the only way to treat it is to kill the horse. the shoers i have seen do navicular horses chop off their heals, leave a lot of toe and pad them to heck and back.

Im sorry my shoer is not to your specs but the others out here would make you cringe. I am doing what i can, almost everyone but fiance, FIL and vet, say to put her down. That its not worth treating or maintaining. This was a throwaway horse when i got her, but i refuse to throw her away. IF, IF i could find a GOOD farrier who dose not do a botch job on horses feet i would try to get him out. but all the shoers/trimmers people rant and rave about are crap.


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## jazzy475

KigerQueen said:


> IF, IF i could find a GOOD farrier who dose not do a botch job on horses feet i would try to get him out. but all the shoers/trimmers people rant and rave about are crap.


 And your are obviously NOT reading post or are choosing what you want to read. Loosie gave you a list of GOOD farriers And trimmers in AZ,so no excuses here you'v got a list of farriers. 

Everyone on here has given you good advice and you do nothing but come up with more excuses. You either want to help your horse or you don't but in the end the horse suffers, totally not fair.:-(


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## deserthorsewoman

Sorry, but I don't get it... you have THE Gene Ovnicek RIGHT IN PHOENIX and you haven't talked to him yet??????


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## KigerQueen

ALL but one of them is over an hours drive away, without a trailer!!! So im going to spend $20 in dissel to just GET to the person. And my mare dose NOT trailer well. as in i may need to sedate her for a long trailer ride. The one person i cant find info on his work. Ill contact him but if he wont come to my horse i cant get her to him.


My horse is walking quite sound as of today. HEAL FIRST landings and she is feeling good. She is NOT on ANY pain meds either. I am sorry i am not made of money, im sorry i am not going to put my horse through crazy amounts of stress (she tried to flip herself over once the trailer starts moving), and im sorry im listening to my vet on this. Found out he IS UTD on his info and he agrees to back the heal down a little next time. 

I am sorry it sounds like excuses. You all dont know my situation. there are people out here that think its OK to not mess with a horses feet more than once every 4-5 months. There are people who think no heal, all toe is ok. These are the horse people i can talk to daily. And they spend excessive amounts of money on less then amazing hoof care. If every horse owner needed to be financially stable %100 of the time, there would be ALOT more horses going to slaughter. 


AND this thread was SUPPOSED TO BE about HOW the navicular hoof needs to be trimmed, NOT who is doing it. AND More info on WHAT Navicular is as well as her progress. This has just turned into a attack me fest. I am 23 with a part time job that gives crap hours and not the best pay. i travel over an hour to work and about 1/4th of my check goes to gas. When i got my horse hay was $7 a bale and farriers where not charging an arm and a leg. Life happens, i have done what i can and i will continue to do WHAT i can.


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## Yogiwick

I for one am NOT trying to attack you. I definitely hear you. I am slightly older than you and paying half the bills on my own place. I had a full time job that cut my hours to 25-30 per week and make it difficult for me to get a second (which I did off and on). Because it wasn't working I made some major changes and just started a new full time job that will double my salary. You do what you need to.

I don't think anyone's trying to attack you, but many suggestions are made and being ignored and we constantly hear complaints and excuses and you trying to justify things when all people want is for you to listen. We are just trying to help. IME most farriers will drive to you and an hours drive is not unrealistic. I was talking to a farrier the other day who flew from FL to MA every few weeks. It's definitely worth going down the list and calling and talking to people, if it won't work ask them if there's someone else they would recommend that will work (that's not on the list, no point in overlapping).

Quite honestly, I don't care what the people around you are doing. It's a shame but it's their issue. Now we know you genuinely care for the horse and want to make it work, hence the advice and saying NOT to do what other are doing.

I don't think anyone said not to listen to your vet. Unfortunately I agree that "settling" in this situation will cost more in the long run, both in finances and with the horses situation. Even with my limited knowledge that shoe job makes me wince. I'm glad she's feeling better but unfortunately don't see it lasting atm.

How to manage it is extremely relative to who trims (how it's done basically). I don't feel the thread has gone off topic.

I think people are frustrated because it doesn't sound like you are listening to the suggestions given and don't even sound like you are really reading the comments. I for one definitely want the best for you AND Negra and am genuinely trying to help.

And yes, in most areas board alone costs more what you (would be) paying each month.

If things aren't working why don't you change them?


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## Yogiwick

Did you read the link given? Rather interesting and telling... :

​ *A navicular horse Sandy Judy worked on*--see *Barefoot success stories
*This horse was not yet "over at the knee," or bending the knees forward to reduce weight on her heels. She got pain relief from standing under in the hind to shift more weight off the sore fores, plus standing behind the vertical in the front to take some weight off her heels. This is an early phase of navicular syndrome. If a horse is "standing with its feet in a teacup," this is a red flag. Note that her cannon bones are more vertical in the "After" photo.​ ​


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## Patty Stiller

That shoeing is horrible. 
None of the hoof imbalances that are causing her issues have been fixed. Slapping iron onto the end of inadequately trimmed hooves is not going to solve anything in the long run. This must have been the cheapest shoeing you could get, right? . If you can't afford the right KIND of THERAPEUTIC shoeing to actually help the damage inside the foot HEAL, you are throwing your money away. I give up. Poor horse. Good luck.


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## loosie

KigerQueen said:


> The farrier everyone uses for bearfoot trimming alread said he won't touch her hoves


Have to say it... maybe because he's not experienced with horses, only bears



> And she is mostly shoed becase her back cracked hoof. The crack is startingto pull away and misshaping that hoof badly.


Wait, what? I thought we were discussing shoeing for the 'navicular'?? And yes, it doesn't surprise me that the crack was getting worse again, but that is a trim/balance issue(& likely environment/infection), not due to lack of rim shoes. 



> And I know a little bout hooves thank you. I don't know internal workings but I know what angles th fronts and backs shoud be.


I am careful not to assume what people may know or don't here, but you yourself have said(in this thread or the last??) that you don't have much of a clue, that you don't understand the rads, the info & terms that have been given here... as well as the other stuff you've said, shown, that gives that idea. So... didn't assume, didn't say it to offend, but to emphasise the relevance of what YOU have told us of your knowledge. Especially when you're judging others. No shame in not knowing, but especially when you are apparently in such a difficult area for good help, it'd be helpful for your horse(& ultimately your pocket too) to get educated. 

I asked what gave you the idea her hooves should be those angles you gave, not that they were *necessarily* wrong. Understanding the 'internal workings' is absolutely important in considering balance/angles, so I'm asking what makes you so sure? Did the vet proscribe that for eg? Those angles sound not quite right to me, especially when we're talking about the angle of a stretched toe, but it is all relative - depends on the horse/hoof in question as to what is the 'right' angle & I didn't do any measurements off the rads myself. I'm not going back to look, but I also had the idea that the fores weren't quite the same as eachother? Fores should also be shallower in angle(not including flares!), less upright than hind feet, and when they're not, they may be a product of, or cause of other body issues.

Esp in rim shoes, how are you going about raising the *internal* 'angles'(which is by far the most important, that they are right - do you know what angles should _they_ be?) while lowering the external?



> If you think thouse feet are bad you would cray at the other 30 some horses where I board. I agree, her heals are still long. Next trim that will be adressed. 124 for shoes out here would only be front shoes.


Yes, I'm sure anyone with much experience in the horse world has seen worse too, but do you see how that is not relevant or helpful to you(your horse) or the discussion here? And again, we're all in the real world, money isn't free & easy for most of us. Bottom line is, horses aren't cheap to keep well cared for in most parts, but they are domestic animals who rely on their owners. Also a bit confused as I was sure you said $500 a couple of replies back....


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## KigerQueen

how is that shoeing horrible? (like seriously angles, what is off something! im tired of people saying its horrible and not saying how) that is the only shoer who's shoed don't fall off in 3 weeks. tell be besides her heals what is wrong with it? I just watched a shoer who quoted me $150 for shoes slap shoes back on a horse WITHOUT EVEN TRIMMING IT. as for flushing money down the drain i am glad im not spending 150 for 4 horses for trims that take less than 5 min and just re setting a shoe after 6 weeks. I look at all the other horses where i board and they are ALL toe. I have seen the work of over 7 farriers in my area. and the only one who is half decent told me she would charge me $300 to shoe her (or even trimm her). 

I am willing to give that guy a call. but i dont have the money right now because of vet bills. between over what i make in a month in vet bills, a flat tire and gas, im spent this month. normally i have a but of a money cushin. but life attacked me all at once. Also what if that guy is a bust too? i know a cuple of the farriers on his site. and one of them was the guy who was out today. the ONLY REALLY GOOD farrier we had out here is gone, and its a shame to because i WAS going to have him work on my horse a while back.


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## KigerQueen

the $500 was what i paied in the past cuple of days. most farriers out here are saying the $200 t0 $300 range with the shoes. I know its nor entirely relevant but what im trying to say is that theses people mostly use different farriers. there are at least 5 different farriers who go to that property alone. that is a huge chunk of the farriers for this area. there is not one who dose a fantastic job that would make me say "Why YES! i would love you to do a half **** job on my mare's feet for $300!" I dont have alot of money after vet bills. i am looking for a second job or at least a full time one. My farrier is very willing to learn, so if i go to him and say "try this" he will. he will sit there for 4 hours if he has to to make sure everything is just right. 

As for the back hoof she did that even with a "top notch" farrier. The crack goes through most of the layers of the hoof so its easily pulls away. you can see it on the sole of her hoof. its like a second hoof is trying to grow off her main one. going through 3 trimmers shoes seem to be the only thing keeping that crack in check. it helps hold it closed and stops it from misshaping (she is cow hocked and sickle hocked so she twists her feet slightly as she walks. does NOT help that foot.)


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## jazzy475

Patty Stiller said:


> That shoeing is horrible.
> None of the hoof imbalances that are causing her issues have been fixed. Slapping iron onto the end of inadequately trimmed hooves is not going to solve anything in the long run. This must have been the cheapest shoeing you could get, right? . If you can't afford the right KIND of THERAPEUTIC shoeing to actually help the damage inside the foot HEAL, you are throwing your money away. I give up. Poor horse. Good luck.



^^^ patty tells you right here whats wrong with the shoe job. Don't think you'll get a detailed response now she GIVES UP. Can't say i blame her, seems like you don't listen so whats the point in posting with advice. 

I'am not made of money either but i make sure my horses get the care they need. And most farriers will work with you,once they'v been working on your horse for a while. I know my farrier will hold a check for a week if need be. 

My hubby gets a pay check every week i take 50 dollars and put it in savings,and after a month of that i have over half my farrier bill. :wink: 
Helps 2 horses are on a 6 week cycle for trimming and one is on a 4 week cycle,don't have to come up with as much money at one time.


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## loosie

Here we go round the Mulberry bush...



KigerQueen said:


> So i got the watch the shoer that EVERYONE loves today in action.


So what??? How is that relevant or helpful to your horse, or telling us?? Is it supposed to justify the job you've just shown us??



> Well if i gave up on my animals everytime i hit a money crises i would never own one. you all cannot say you never hit a hard time in your lives. i can afford my mare,


Sounds like you CAN'T afford your horse, IN YOUR OWN WORDS, and that yes, if you can't afford(time, money, etc) to take adequate care of an animal, you shouldnt' own one. and please stop with the sob story about money, as if you're the only poor person in the world. Especially if it's all rubbish & you can afford it after all.



> think the only way to treat it is to kill the horse. the shoers i have seen do navicular horses chop off their heals, leave a lot of toe and pad them to heck and back.


Yes, and if you aren't going to do what it takes, then it is indeed a death sentence. And there are worse things for horses than death. And if they're not going to be well managed, at least 'padding to hell & back' will provide some palliative relief that yours isn't getting. Judging that brings to mind something about a pot & a kettle...


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## loosie

KigerQueen said:


> how is that shoeing horrible? (like seriously angles, what is off something! im tired of people saying its horrible and not saying how)


Why on earth should we explain to you AGAIN, after a number of us repeatedly trying & having you obviously not read & have every conceivable excuse under the sun why it's all impossible & you can't do anything. I think everything constructive has been said, for others who need info, who ARE going to actually take in what's been said & not make excuses, so I've had it. I feel very sorry for your horse.


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## jazzy475

loosie said:


> Here we go round the Mulberry bush...
> 
> 
> 
> So what??? How is that relevant or helpful to your horse, or telling us?? Is it supposed to justify the job you've just shown us??
> 
> 
> Its called it justifys the bad farrier work,and i can tell you now your questions will only be meant with more excuses. This entire thread is about excuses why not,can't find a good farrier and so on.
> 
> Has been given good advice a list of good farriers,can't help any more if its not wanted,or not accepted. :wink: Sometimes one has to just call it quits and this is one of those times,advice is falling on deaf ears...And i'am done with this thread now...


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## loosie

jazzy475 said:


> ...and i can tell you now your questions will only be meant with more excuses. This entire thread is about excuses...


Yeah, I did get that some time back, before this thread(I'm not _that_ slow Jazzy) but I'd been continuing(well, mostly... the last couple of posts were just venting frustration), hopefully for the other people who may read this & do want help.

There are none so blind as those who _will_ not see!


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## Elana

Quite honestly if I had a horse develop navicular and the shoes were going to cost me $300 (or more) I would opt to put the horse down (which these days, with the lack of rendering plants and knackers can also be hellishly expensive!). 

Unless that horse was a valuable winning competition or breeding animal, that would be my choice. Other than the first horse I owned for 20 years and who was put down due to an injury, I never loved a horse to the point of keeping it forever OR not being able to opt out and send a horse to auction or put it down if it was headed down the road of expensive maintenance. 

I learned a LONG time ago that there are times to move forward and times to not move forward. Navicular is more treatable and better understood than it used to be (20 years ago.. where did the time go?) but it is an issue that must be managed and that management is not without extra expense. 

See how it goes KigerQueen. I am not a fan of that shoe job either.. if for no other reason than the nails are way low and the toes dubbed off. Of course, they may be low because there is no hoof to work with. I am not a farrier tho I did learn to shoe my own horses. That did not make me an expert by any stretch. 

If keeping this horse sound is out of your reach financially, then the answer is to own that and send the horse down the road or put the horse down. JMO

Good luck with how you work this out.


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## natisha

OP, I feel bad that you & Negra are in this situation.
Have you tried going around to other barns & asking who they use? Surely not everyone is satisfied with the farriers you know of. Maybe there are some barns that the farrier drives a distance to do. My farrier has some clients a couple hours away & he has done work for free just to help some horses. He can't be the only one to want to help for the sake of helping.

I tried living in AZ & I know that there are many substandard boarding stables but there are good ones too. Google show barns & start there with asking who they recommend. If you get a hit call that person & explain your situation-you could get lucky.

Can your BF help financially? Maybe if someone could do the corrective trim/ shoeing he could explain it to your shoer while he does it. At least it would give your shoer a place to start, then if he's a good student he could keep it up with the expensive person only every so often.

If your horse needs sedation to travel so be it or maybe a companion travel buddy would help.

I've had people haul to my place to use my farrier so it's not unheard of to go to where the farrier is working.

Do you have anything you could sell to get some cash?

Just throwing out some ideas.


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## Yogiwick

Elana said:


> Quite honestly if I had a horse develop navicular and the shoes were going to cost me $300 (or more) I would opt to put the horse down (which these days, with the lack of rendering plants and knackers can also be hellishly expensive!).
> 
> Unless that horse was a valuable winning competition or breeding animal, that would be my choice. Other than the first horse I owned for 20 years and who was put down due to an injury, I never loved a horse to the point of keeping it forever OR not being able to opt out and send a horse to auction or put it down if it was headed down the road of expensive maintenance.
> 
> I learned a LONG time ago that there are times to move forward and times to not move forward. Navicular is more treatable and better understood than it used to be (20 years ago.. where did the time go?) but it is an issue that must be managed and that management is not without extra expense.
> 
> See how it goes KigerQueen. I am not a fan of that shoe job either.. if for no other reason than the nails are way low and the toes dubbed off. Of course, they may be low because there is no hoof to work with. I am not a farrier tho I did learn to shoe my own horses. That did not make me an expert by any stretch.
> 
> If keeping this horse sound is out of your reach financially, then the answer is to own that and send the horse down the road or put the horse down. JMO
> 
> Good luck with how you work this out.


This mare is older and has other issues beyond the navicular. If I remember correctly the OP was considering selling her before because she could not get her the proper care and could not work with her?

I honestly don't think euthanasia is not an option here. Kiger we know you don't want that, neither do we, but sometimes it is the best option. If you're having this much trouble with the bare minimum..

I am not a farrier so can't really speak for them but regarding "what is wrong" you must understand that there is only so much one can tell from pictures and also what are they supposed to do? Give exact criteria that then go from someone who doesn't know to a third person who then does the feet their own way using the criteria? Good recipe for a lame horse and a law suit. Suggestions were made but are not being listened to.

You are getting defensive and everyone is simply trying to help but you aren't listening or learning. Honestly I think if you really make an effort to step back and see that you would find the information right in front of you.

Honestly having a farrier put in such effort is GREAT it really is but if that's the result of the effort it doesn't mean so much.

Even if you HAD to do conventional shoes could you not at least do pads with pour ins or something to support the frog?

And minimal knowledge disclaimer but wouldn't something like egg bar or heart bars be better? Wouldn't pretty much any farrier be able to do that? (If someone who knows, knows that those would NOT be better please tell me!)

Why didn't you try that?

Also you need to decide what the issue is here.

You could put the money into good shoes on her front feet that have major issues going on or use the money for a poor job on all four feet simply because the back ones have a crack.


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## Patty Stiller

> How is that shoeing horrible?


You are not likely going to bother to get it changed anyway, or hire a properly trained and experienced enough farrier to do it, so I wont even bother.


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## trailhorserider

I feel really bad for Negra. Even though I don't know her, I just don't consider her a throw-away horse. I don't think she is without hope for becoming sound. 

I understand everyone is frustrated with the OP. I am too. But I can't help but want everything to turn out okay. I do have a really soft spot for Arabians. 

I wonder how many sound horses have navicular issues on radiographs? I am not a doctor or a vet, but I can't help but wonder if that is not just the normal shape of her navicular bones. Because I don't think(?) they look arthritic. But then, I have little medical expertise. I guess I just feel like this horse is very close to being sound with the right combination of time and trimming and shouldn't be condemned as unfixable just yet. My heart really goes out to her. She's such a beautiful horse. And I feel like even the OP considers her a throw-away due to her comments.

So yeah, I wish I had the means to help this horse.


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## jazzy475

trailhorserider said:


> I feel really bad for Negra. Even though I don't know her, I just don't consider her a throw-away horse. I don't think she is without hope for becoming sound.
> 
> I understand everyone is frustrated with the OP. I am too. But I can't help but want everything to turn out okay. I do have a really soft spot for Arabians.
> 
> I wonder how many sound horses have navicular issues on radiographs? I am not a doctor or a vet, but I can't help but wonder if that is not just the normal shape of her navicular bones. Because I don't think(?) they look arthritic. But then, I have little medical expertise. I guess I just feel like this horse is very close to being sound with the right combination of time and trimming and shouldn't be condemned as unfixable just yet. My heart really goes out to her. She's such a beautiful horse. And I feel like even the OP considers her a throw-away due to her comments.
> 
> So yeah, I wish I had the means to help this horse.



Nobody here condemned her to be forever unsound. OP isn't willing or can't afford to have a GOOD farrier out. That said horse has little to no hope of being sound long term. 

I'd take her in a heart beat, i know my farrier could fix those feet no problem. I feel sorry for negra also but its out of our hands nothing we can do,not our horse. If it was my horse she wouldn't be like she is hoof wise.:wink:


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## Patty Stiller

> but I can't help but wonder if that is not just the normal shape of her navicular bones.


The enlargement at the lower edge of the navicular bone is usually because of long term stress in the impar ligament, which attaches there and connects the lower edge of the navicular bone to the bottom of the coffin bone. Long toes, breakover point too far forwards and underrun heels are direct factors in increasing that stress.


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## BreezylBeezyl

I feel bad for you, OP. My sympathies. I know what it's like, stressing the money. My mare has been to the vet twice in a month recently, totalling to over $700. Unfortunately it's an expense you've got to be able to afford if you are going to have animals.

I'm not a shoer, and know almost next to nothing of navicular. My advice is going to be different.

*I don't suggest throwing in the towel yet. *You sound like a person with really good intentions for your horse but your finances are making you struggle with making the best choices for her. If this is the root cause, look at fixing it. Personally I think people are being _really _hard on you - money is a valid excuse in my opinion so I feel you, but also understand that if that's where the issue lies then you need to look at addressing it.

When I was really pinched for cash a few months ago, I made the executive decision to get my finances in order. I realized that living paycheck to paycheck is neither fruitful, fun, or possible if you want to feel secure and generally happy with your financial situation. You need to have room for those emergencies and even fun.

A few months later, I ended up having those surprise vet bills which I NEVER would have been able to afford in the past.

Send me a PM if you want to talk. I make up budgets and do taxes part time as a profession.


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## Drifting

Elana said:


> Quite honestly if I had a horse develop navicular and the shoes were going to cost me $300 (or more) I would opt to put the horse down (which these days, with the lack of rendering plants and knackers can also be hellishly expensive!).



This. Especially if that horse was almost 20 and a fruit-loop of a mare. I'm not faulting you if you don't want to give up on her, you got a lot of try in ya. It's hard to hear criticism, especially on an online forum. Hard to be short the funds that you need when you need it too. I've been there. I hope you can take a step back, beath and decide what is best for your animal AND yourself. 


I did have a gelding that had questionable soundness. I got him for free, had the vet out once. Had the fancy shoes on once. No difference, and I was faced with invest more money into him to find out what was really going on or pass him on for free to someone who knew what they were taking on (or put him down.) I did manage to find a home for him, and he's apparently sound now and that's great. I would have put him down if no one had taken him, I had just gotten done paying a HUGE vet bill for my other horse and wasn't going to start another one on a horse I hadn't even paid for.

But he was younger, and a good boy and I wanted to give him a chance - even if that wasn't with me. If he'd been nearly 20 and a jerk I probably wouldn't have thought twice about calling for the body-hauler.


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## loosie

WillowNightwind said:


> *I don't suggest throwing in the towel yet. *You sound like a person with really good intentions for your horse but your finances are making you struggle with making the best choices for her. If this is the root cause, look at fixing it. Personally I think people are being _really _hard on you - money is a valid excuse


Willow, please read the whole thread, and the last one, so you might see why we've *gradually become* 'hard'. Virtually no one suggested 'throwing in the towel', excepting OP continually tells us why she can't possibly do any of the things suggested. So as she is effectively 'throwing in the towel' herself with regard to good care & management of the horse, we all seem to be agreed that that is not at all fair on the horse. 

And yes, many of us have money troubles, many of us have difficulty budgetting, but no, that is absolutely no acceptable reason(of course it's an excuse) for keeping a horse in suffering. Again, you shouldn't make the animal suffer for your desire to keep it despite lack of funds. If you can't afford it, find someone who can, or put the animal out of it's misery.


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## jazzy475

loosie said:


> Willow, please read the whole thread, and the last one, so you might see why we've *gradually become* 'hard'. Virtually no one suggested 'throwing in the towel', excepting OP continually tells us why she can't possibly do any of the things suggested. So as she is effectively 'throwing in the towel' herself with regard to good care & management of the horse, we all seem to be agreed that that is not at all fair on the horse.
> 
> And yes, many of us have money troubles, many of us have difficulty budgetting, but no, that is absolutely no acceptable reason(of course it's an excuse) for keeping a horse in suffering. Again, you shouldn't make the animal suffer for your desire to keep it despite lack of funds. If you can't afford it, find someone who can, or put the animal out of it's misery.


^^^ This pretty much sums up the entire thread here. I'v been following this from the start and can say OP has excuses for every thing. I feel sorry for the horse. 

Have a hard time with someone letting a horse be in pain,because of so called money trouble. If you can't afford to do whats needed then find the horse a new home,that simple.:wink:


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## KigerQueen

some people put horses down or get rid of them because they have a limit to what they will spend on a horse. I have a monthly limit at the moment. i would be more willing to find a new farrier and pay more if i did not just spend my ENTIRE month's paycheck on vet bills within a 48 hour period. And my hours got cut so i won't have the same amount of cash for a bit. The mare in question is doing great right now thank you. And the farrier that was on the "good"farriers site that someone posted (in his list of good farriers) is the guy that trimmers horses in less then 5 min without a rasp and calls it good. 

As for trailering, with another horse or by herself she rocks back and forth, scrambles and tried to flip herself over only once its moving. Trailering once in a blue moon she will survive, trailering every 4 weeks would cause A LOT more vet bills. Also I do not own a trailer, and my lil dakota is not pulling a 3 horse gooseneck. My fiance has no brakes on his first gen and FIL's cummins's transmission is all but dead. No one is willing to trailer my horse every 4 weeks and everyone keeps suggesting thier farrier (the one who slapped shoes on a horse without trimming it) everytime i ask if they would be willing to trailer to use a better farrier. they dont want to switch, they think he is golden.

I will put my mare down only when she is having more bad days than good. as of now she is sound, happy and being her normal self. My farrier has been studying and reading up on navicular. he had no reason to in the past as he only shoes a few horses and none had issues (besides trying to kill farriers, and OTTBs with their heals hacked off to extend their strides). he has talked to about 3 farriers and they all say to jack their heals up with pads so their opinions are out. 


I am sorry that the job market in my area is crap. I have been looking for a better job but its hard to find one job, much less two. Im working my butt off to become a groomer so i get a pay raise and full time. When i got my mare, i was fine financially. I know what it cost to keep a horse and i had been riding for about 5+ years. Life happens and it happens all at once. In a few months i could be in a better situation and not only NOT have to live with my parents, but not have to board either. Maybe it wont cost me over $60 a month to feed one horse. who knows. Stop saying you feel bad for my mare. when i got her she was beat daily, had been used for horse tripping. GALLOPED HARD on the street consistently (then asked to do a sliding stop on pavement). She did not have her feet even looked at for 3 years and her teeth looked like they had never been done. She was about to become dog food or taken out to the back 40 and shot. 

This horse now gets over 10lbs of pellets a day along with hay. has a nice bedded stall and is loved on almost every day. She may not get all the care of a show horse but i do what i can when i can. I can stay on top of her shoeing. I will get the vet out if something is horribly wrong. I won't let her go hungry. I have to live too though. I have not had any type of social outing with friend in over 8 months, and that was a wedding (so 3 days of social interaction outside of work). I dont buy myself things, my horse is my thing so i dont mind spending it all on her. I have bills that i need to pay as well. I was doing fine until around december when my hours got cut in half. Everyone hits a low point, they work through it. im trying, it may be at the cost of a crazy amount of stress and stomach ulcers, but im trying.


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## Elana

Kiger Queen.. you are doing your best. I surely get that. 

Have you thought of getting extra cash by doing something entrepreneurial, such as house cleaning (the last thing I would want to do) or house painting.. odd jobs.. stuff that everyone needs and no one wants to do. Sometimes there is a good buck in that (tho it leaves you with even LESS time to do what you want!). 

THAT is the way to get ahead. Not dissing what you are doing.. just tossing that out there. Reliability and returning phone calls can make you invaluable. 

I am glad your horse is feeling better with shoes. I had a barefoot horse years back that ran short.. because I rode so much and so much on roads. Shoes made all the difference.


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## KigerQueen

I will look into that, or offering to clean stalls at a local barn or something. I pulled a tendon in my wrist about a week ago so working has been interesting lol. i think it might be getting better since i emptied an ethier pickup load of grindings/shavings into my mares stall without a lot of pain yesterday. at work Dog owners look at me oddly when I came to check in their dogs with a big ol hair covered brace on XD!


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## trailhorserider

KigerQueen said:


> Stop saying you feel bad for my mare.


Sorry for caring. I won't make that mistake again. YOU just always act like you are ready to throw in the towel. And after a while, I feel sorry for the horse, wondering where it will end up. Because you don't seem to think highly of her based on your comments. That's all. 

Anyway, I'm not posting on here anymore. Best of luck.


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## KigerQueen

No i NEVER said i did not think best of her. IF you were buying a horse, would you pick up a 19 year old navicular mare who needed to be restarted? I am stating WHY trying to sell her is pointless. there are well started, sound registered horses going for $800 or less. I LOVE this horse, hence why im willing to do what i can for her. I won't get rid of her. if i can never ride her again, i will still keep her. I will never sell this horse. I would never forgive myself. i thought about it in the past because she can be too much horse for me. But that was before we knew she had navicular and would at least have a chance of finding a good home.


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## Elana

Interior and exterior painting is a good way to make pretty good money.. as is learning any of the trades. Just TRY to get a plumber!! People turn their nose up at trades and I have to say they should not ever. My ploumber and my electrician are so busy I need to make appts way ahead and they make a LOT more money than I do. 

Think OUTSIDE the box. The first guy to open a Quick Oil change place was a genius.


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## evilamc

If you're a groomer and have your own equipment people will pay big bucks for house calls too...I had one lady pay me $200 to come to her house and give her shepard mix a haircut. People LOVE the idea of not having to take their pets out of their comfort zone to get groomed. DH and I are trying to move, and place we're looking at I'll be able to just groom from home, technically I'll take a paycut compared to what I make here in the city...but I wont have any overhead which would be great.


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## KigerQueen

i dont have my own equipment yet. i'm still just a "Bather" as in not aloud to cut dog hair besides paw pads and sanitary trims. Im in the running to be the next groomer though so fingers crossed. I like painting but i dont think i would have much of a shot out here. people hire people who cant even speak english for pennies to do work for them. That dose not mean i wont try though.


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## dkb811

" I LOVE this horse, hence why im willing to do what I can for her. I won't get rid of her. If I can never ride her again, I will still keep her. I will never sell this horse"

I feel the exact same way about my horse. She was diagnosed with EPM in December. I'm very attached to her! The news was very upsetting to me.


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## evilamc

KigerQueen said:


> i dont have my own equipment yet. i'm still just a "Bather" as in not aloud to cut dog hair besides paw pads and sanitary trims. Im in the running to be the next groomer though so fingers crossed. I like painting but i dont think i would have much of a shot out here. people hire people who cant even speak english for pennies to do work for them. That dose not mean i wont try though.


Ah well start learning now as much as you can. Join the facebook group "Critique your groom" and start learning the breed standards and what not and that will get you ahead of the game!


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## Elana

this guy is my neighbor. Lawlor Family - Home

He and his wife do this business. Again.. you have to think outside the box and be creative. You start with a friend.. and a reference. You have to have a CAN DO attitude. Look at the originality in their work. They are booked ahead.. own a house.. pay a mortgage.. home school their kids.. pay all their bills and are HONEST. NY ain't cheap to live and he has to compete with pennies on the dollar labor too. 

In less than a year this person went right on UP. He drives an old truck.. an old car and the only debt he has is his house. He prices the equipment he needs into the job (paint, rollers, even the ladders and scaffolding). He charges so much an hour per person (I think like $30?? but I may be wrong). 

The thing to be is CAN do, not "Oh I don't know how" or "I can't do." No one was born knowing how. They had to learn how just like the rest of us. 

I am going to drop this now because it is heck and gone Ot from Kiger's Navicular.. but is it if it gets you doing something to afford better care for you and your horse? I don't know....................


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## SueNH

baby sitting...elder care....pet sitting

care.com


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## Horseychick87

Hey Kiger, can you braid/ band manes? Braid tails?

If so you can clean up at show barns. In my town you could make $45 per mane for bands $50 for basic braids and $150 for a tail! I'm not kidding, I'm learning how to do this as I have a ton of show barns nearby, most owners don't seem willing to do it or know how. You could advertise on Craigslist and community bulletin boards.

Also, have you thought about maybe applying for a grant and becoming a farrier? I know you're working, but have you thought about it? You could probably do really well for yourself in your area. I know it's probably something you wouldn't want to do, but I thought I'd throw that out there as well. I know nothing of AZ, but I had looked into going to The Horseshoeing School in Purcell OK years ago, until my back gave out and I was laid up for four months, figured it probably wouldn't help my back any, LOL.

Anyways, I hope everything works out.


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## KigerQueen

Im trying to learn to braid more then just maintenance braids. I dont have acses to manes that are short enough to band/ show braid. BUUUUUT my FIL has a navajo pony who MIGHT stand still long enough. I will hunt around. that is something i have been wanting to do. I am already practising clipping, hence my mare's new hair cut lol. 

This is qh and arab horse central outhere. so it will be face clipping and bridle paths and such. I could practice on my mare though i might leave the ears alone. she has a thing against fly masts so her poor ears would not stand a chance without ear hair.


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## Horseychick87

Yup, those will all get you some extra cash so long as you do a good job, the braiding scene can get kind of cutthroat at shows, so I prefer to advertise to come to the barn, save me the trouble of stepping on an established braiders toes, LOL.

Yeah I tend to leave ear hair alone anyways, I'm a rebel! I will 'fancy them up' for a show, but take care to leave some for bug protection if I can. I'm so short that most horses that would normally let someone trim their ears seem to find it funny to lift their heads out of my reach! Well I've shown them I now come equipped with a step stool!

How is Negra feeling today?


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## KigerQueen

Well she is walking heal first on her RF ans still somewhat flat on the LF but thats alot better than she used to be. sadly her sanity is running out again. she normally become an uncontrollable, spooky basket case around this time of year. come october she is the plot along trail pony i fell in love with when i bought her. spring roles around and she starts getting dangerous. I walked her to the truck to talk to fiance this afternoon, she tried to spook at herself, freaked out when i tried to back her up (trying to spin around, bolding backwards) and acted like something was going to eat her. This will be year 3 of her being a major nut (serious bipolar mare! was NOT like this at all the year i knew her before i bought her and the first year i had her). Idk what to do about it. she cycled all winter but she is majorly in heat now (its nasty DX!). Sooooo this should be FUN! 



I have been planing on going to this horse camping trip for over a year now. i go every year, and was planning on going even if i could not ride her. Since its closer this year (20-30 min trailer ride) we decided to take her. Maybe now that she can stand not so under herself she could balance better. MAYBE she might have gotten over her craziness. Not counting on it so we are bringing half the vet clinic with us -_-' The last two years because of her crazy mood swing she had dumped me twice and the first time dragged me through two cactus. SOOOOOOOOO this year IF she stays sound with me riding (there is also an arena i can work her in to see how she is holding up) She is getting ponied by my fiance. SOOOO not playing the "chase the runaway horse" game this year..... I swear she knows im going to start riding her again. vet cleared her for riding this week so we may go on the easy short ride, or i might just do the clinics.


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## Horseychick87

I like the braids, very uniform.

She does look like she's standing more comfortably in those photos, I'm glad to see that.

Have you looked into having a marble put in her? It's supposed to mimmick pregnancy and keep them from coming into heat. Vet's charge various amounts and it doesn't always stay in/ work, but it could be worth a try if she goes crazy when she's in heat.

I'm dying to go horse camping...of course that would require me having a horse, or at least a nearby friend with a horse. Oh, cactus, how fun, I stepped on a tiny one barefooted, I certainly don't want to be drug through one.


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## KigerQueen

to be honest. i would be cheaper for me to spay her. Its a 4in incision in the vaginal wall, local anesthetic and she cant lay down for 48 hours. they just remove the ovaries. its like having a gelding but easier to clean XD!!!! considering it looks like she had birth a few foals (or half draft foals 0.o') i would not bet on the marble staying in long. Im going to get some raspberry leaf (or mare magic but buying the leaves for tea is cheaper) and wild yams should help her a huge amount.

I have pics of the french braid i did on her. Not the best but she can be a brat for braiding. i would like to do a diamond braid on her but then id have to take it back out as she would get it stuck on something -_-'


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## Horseychick87

Here's it's $3,000 or more to spay. Yeah after having a foal or two she might not be able to hold the marble. I've never used the raspberry leaves, most of the mares I've dealt with are show horses, I think it's banned in show horses, not 100% on that though.

I like that French braid, I've got to practice doing those more. I've done the diamond braids, they are so much easier for me than french braids.

I like her expression in that picture, she's like 'Aw come on, take em out.'


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> No i NEVER said i did not think best of her. IF you were buying a horse, would you pick up a 19 year old navicular mare who needed to be restarted? I am stating WHY trying to sell her is pointless. there are well started, sound registered horses going for $800 or less. I LOVE this horse, hence why im willing to do what i can for her. I won't get rid of her. if i can never ride her again, i will still keep her. I will never sell this horse. I would never forgive myself. i thought about it in the past because she can be too much horse for me. But that was before we knew she had navicular and would at least have a chance of finding a good home.


Kiger just for the record please note that _several_ of us have said we _would_ love to take on a horse like that. If I were closer and had the means atm I would totally offer that.

Not saying that selling (giving away) should be the first choice of course but I do think it is a choice.

As far as "never sell her" you need to think of HER and what is best for HER when you make that decision.

So again, agree that's not a first choice, but just throwing it out there as you don't seem to hear that part.


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## trailhorserider

Yogiwick said:


> Kiger just for the record please note that _several_ of us have said we _would_ love to take on a horse like that. If I were closer and had the means atm I would totally offer that.
> 
> Not saying that selling (giving away) should be the first choice of course but I do think it is a choice.
> 
> As far as "never sell her" you need to think of HER and what is best for HER when you make that decision.
> 
> So again, agree that's not a first choice, but just throwing it out there as you don't seem to hear that part.


Yeah, I didn't respond to that earlier because I said I wasn't responding anymore, but I personally bought a 15 yr old ex-broodmare as the last trail horse I purchased. She's not a perfect riding horse, but I enjoy the heck out of her. She's had so many foals (for previous owners, I never bred her myself) that I don't know how she ever found time to be saddle broke. :lol: She had like 10 foals in 15 years. :shock: So she was far from perfect as a trail horse. Why did I get her? Because I always wanted a gaited horse and she was for sale for $500. 

Somebody out there would love a gorgeous Arabian mare for $500 (or whatever), even if she's not perfect. 

If the horse is the right price a lot of people will take a chance on them if they are looking. And a lot of people NOT looking will take on a horse for free if they have the room. 

Anyway, that's my opinion on that.


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## KigerQueen

This is not the best market to rehome a horse. she was owned by charrows and messed up. They used her for TRIPPING. as in they ran her FULL SPEED and roped her front legs out from under her. And just like i keep all other animals for life, i will keep her too. She is 100% sound as of now. That is more then i can say for the 3 other navicular horses i know. I could buy a well bred, shown broke arab for less then 2k. I would not sell her for $500. that would be sending her RIGHT back to where i got her from. Id shoot her myself before i let that happen.


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## trailhorserider

Great. Keep her and enjoy her. Nobody says to get rid of her. You just always act like nobody would want her, and I doubt that's the case.


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## loosie

Horseychick87 said:


> She does look like she's standing more comfortably in those photos,


Wow, earlier pics that I haven't seen must have been pretty bad then! She's 'camped under' behind, has weak, sore looking lumbar/sacro area & she can't quite straighten her knees. No way known I'd subject that poor horse to being ridden.


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## jazzy475

loosie said:


> Wow, earlier pics that I haven't seen must have been pretty bad then! She's 'camped under' behind, has weak, sore looking lumbar/sacro area & she can't quite straighten her knees. No way known I'd subject that poor horse to being ridden.



^^ I agree, the pics on page 2 and pics on page 11 there's some diffrence in her stance. But its not a huge diffrence,still looks uncomfortable to me also.:wink:

Because of my own horses issues i can pickup on very subtitle signs of discomfort,just from stance. I'v learned to be very intune to him and pickup on discomfort by the way he stands.


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## loosie

ok looked again at earlier pics. She is perhaps *marginally* less 'camped under' in front, maybe. But due to the 'jacked up' heels, she can't straighten/lock her legs, relax down on her heels. Obviously not even comfortable enough to stand straight(so I don't get how anyone can call it 'sound' or consider riding), and considering the xrays, the internal structures, being unsupported & given more 'room to move' with peripheral rims, will only drop/imbalance further.


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## mariahreeves

EasyCare, the makers of Easyboots, have a new product called the EasyShoe. It might be exactly what you're looking for. You should check it out. It offers frog support, promotes blood flow, and is flexible. Before you use steel, this might be of interest to you. They cost about $40 for a pair.


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## KigerQueen

well here is the issue with easy shoes. her feet need to be trimmed every 4 weeks (no later). so thats an EXTRA $40 since they can't be reapplied. two i would need 2 pairs so that $80 and then shipping. she is doing quite well with the shoes. if we can't get her frogs to touch the ground with normal shoeing (he won't touch the frog, and there is a way to get it to with shoes) i might consider a pad, not to raise the heals up though. 

We went on this group campout this weekend. lots of rocks and a deeply bedded arena. she did mostly ok for the trailer ride up but tried to kill herself on the way back (she moves so much you can feel the gooseneck move back and forth as we go down the freeway, and she was coated in sweat). She is still 100% sound. we did not do trails (a lot of horses make her somewhat stupid and there was a cliff on the trail). We did mostly arena riding and clinics. she did great. sunday she was a bit of a spazz but she got ahold of herself and settled down nicely. even got her over a tarp (never messed with her and tarps before). I have called 3 farriers and all say they would want to put pads on her to raid her heals up (sent them no pics of ref just wanted to know what they would do for a navicular horse). I even asked the local horse community what they do for their navicular horses and most said pads and raising the heels, others said living in boots with pads. Thats a nope (keeping boots on her 24/7 doesn't work. tried it a cuple of years ago). Told FIL we are bringing her heels down to normal this next trim either he likes it or not.
as for her standing like that. that has been her normal stance for over 7-8 years. she has been standing better the past few days its just hard to get a pic of it. the last squarish pic i got of her was with bell boots on all 4 feet and shipping boots (to keep her from cutting her legs up in the trailer). she was standing with all 4 feet within a 2ft space with her ears pinned. she also looked like she was from the ministry of funny walks (it was hilarious). in other words she did NOT like it and was standing funny and walking funny. she was fine once they where off.


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## loosie

KigerQueen said:


> well here is the issue with easy shoes.


What a surprise!


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## milessa3

The horse needs chiropractic work and has for a while, as you said she has stood that way for 6-7 years, that does not make it normal, a horse standing like that is painful, I have never used a navicular horse for ANYTHING. If you plan on keeping, her the most HUMANE thing you can do is just leave her a pasture puff.


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## KigerQueen

1 no pasture, so she would live in her stall for the next 3+ years with turnout once a week (assuming people dont hog it for 3 hours every time i come to the barn). 2 i had a chiro adjust her not too long ago. 3 she is sound and is only being ridden in arenas for now. Also i know a cuple of sound navicular horses that are still good riding horses. this mare has no problems telling me when she hurts (she tosses her head, she only does that when she is uncomfortable). And in the past i had a vet our for her funky stance and talked to a past farrier about it. they said it was just because she was so camped under. This is my first horse. i trusted the vets and farriers. i also trusted the people who has horses for longer than i was alive. 

Also loosie that was unneeded. I can think of better things to spent $80 every 4 weeks on than unneeded special shoes. Like a better place to board of a "certified farrier". I have been waiting for the easy shoes to come out for about 2 years now. i was quite excited and planned on ordering some as soon as i could. but the price is just too much for something that won't last more than one shoeing cycle.


I am getting real tired of how everyone is attacking me. I am trying to do what i can when i can. I wont just get rid of her. i have seen where cheep horses end up and it where i got her from. out here a good horse can stay on the market for years. a horse with issues longer or she will end up on the next truck to mexico. i LOVE this little mare too much for that to happen. the vet is pleased with her progress, she is standing better every day and she is not lame. her frogs are finally starting to do frog things and grow and not look all sad and shriveled. So im sorry if i cannot dump thousands into my mare every month. i have been saving up money to give me a better cushion but life happens. vet bills, fiance losing his job and i am the only person with a job. this week im getting more hours. i plan on getting my friend out to adjust negra (she is a chiro). Then the vet back out end of next month for another follow up. i am getting more pics and info on how she should be and how i want her trimmed. FIL will do what i want him to with her feet and he is also asking other farriers and doing his own research as well on it.


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## mariahreeves

KigerQueen said:


> well here is the issue with easy shoes. her feet need to be trimmed every 4 weeks (no later). so thats an EXTRA $40 since they can't be reapplied.
> 
> EasyShoes can be reapplied if they are nailed on.


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## KigerQueen

I contacted easy shoe about it when they first came out. they said even the nailed on ones would not last longer then one cycle. otherwise i would be all over it. they said they would wear down to much. i would not glue out here anyway. in the summer the glue dose not last longer than 2 weeks.


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## Elana

You are doing what you can for an aged horse. Looking at the photos she appears to be standing under herself like something is sore. Maybe front feet, maybe back.. something not quite right. I am not surprised looking at her coupling and croup. 

I fully expect that her soreness is bilateral so it would manifest as a shortened way of going and her stance (as she shows in the photos) and other compensatory measures.. very similar to what I do when my back is sore. I kind of camp sideways.. LOL

I have to say that I would not do even as much as you are for this horse. I was never one to stay involved in an expensive maintenance project. Never had the resources for that.. and even if I did, I admit I do not have the patience for it. This horse would have worn out her welcome with me a LOOOONG time ago between the trailering issues, lameness issues, foot issues and her age. 

As the problem progresses she will become more and more difficult to keep sound even if you spend a lot of money. If what you are doing has made her more comfortable (YOU are the one seeing the horse) then that will work for awhile. I expect that as it progresses and considering her age and resources you will do what is right for this horse. 

I am not bashing you at all saying any of this. Just my observation and opinions and not a lot of advice (which is free on the internet and ofte worth what you pay for it!!!).

You see the horse every day. We are only looking at photos.

Best wishes and good luck to you and to your horse. I mean every word of that.


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## natisha

Kiger Queen, I understand what it is like to have a horse few others value. I did everything for my old friend, spent a ton of money keeping her happy & I don't regret one day. She's gone now but I'd do it all over again if I could.
The difference between you & I is that I had the resources to do what needed to be done so it wasn't my quality of life vs hers. You're in a tough spot & I wish you & your horse the best.

Only you can decide what to do.


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## natisha

EasyWalker-Centaur Forge

Theses are the only shoes I'll use when I need to use shoes. They can be reset multiple times. They take some training on the farrier's part & though my farrier grumbled a bit at first he liked them when he got used to them. Just a thought.


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## mariahreeves

KigerQueen said:


> I contacted easy shoe about it when they first came out. they said even the nailed on ones would not last longer then one cycle. otherwise i would be all over it. they said they would wear down to much. i would not glue out here anyway. in the summer the glue dose not last longer than 2 weeks.


 I understand. Gluing is a hard protocol depending on your region. I actually work for EasyCare. You can email me at [email protected] . I promise that the EasyShoes, when nailed, will hold up for longer than one trim cycle.


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## mariahreeves

It sounds like you are doing everything you can for your horse. I wish that there was a cut and dry solution. Life with horses never offers that. Thank you for sharing your story. We've all been given an opportunity to learn from this. Best, best wishes to you and your buddy. All the right decisions will come with the right intentions in your heart.


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## loosie

Elana said:


> As the problem progresses she will become more and more difficult to keep sound even if you spend a lot of money.


Yes, if the effort & money is not going to be put in(& I too have never judged on the fact that it may not be possible) to actually rehab the horse, then the 'disease' is indeed progressive & incurable, and palliative measures are the best that can be hoped for. Therefore shoe, bar shoes, then progressively wedging heels as she gets worse is likely the best option. Back end is another issue I wouldn't be ignoring either.


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## Trinity3205

These shoes can last up to a year, require no special tools, nail on and have alot of support, Any farrier can apply them. They can be rasped off to improve breakover. They can be shapes with nippers and a rasp. You can put a nail anywhere on the shoe including outside of the nail track. They costs 10 bucks a shoe and come in colors for an added bonus although I use clear so I can see better. You need to start thinking outside of the box on how some changes can be made to happen for this horse if you want to help it. Special needs horses arent easy. They are not cheap. They will emotionally and financially tax you at times and make you step past what is easy to get to the right thing. I didnt read the entirety of the thread due to lack of time, but there it is. 

http://groundcontrolhorseshoes.americommerce.com/


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## loosie

^Trinity, thought you were talking about the Easyshoes until I got to the bit about placing nails anywhere - the steel plate that's imbedded in the N/G ones means nails can only go in the 'normal' places, but they can be placed more or less peripherally than normal. I wonder, do the GC shoes have metal imbedded for bracing for nails or studs?


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## KigerQueen

I honestly have no idea whats going on with the back end. it might be a hunters bump of as someone said a rotated pelvis. I tried to get info from one person about how they helped their horses pelvic issues and they just said lots of therapy. Kinda not helpful. 

I like the easy walk shoes. they are alot like the easy shoes but a more palatable price. I can see spending 25 a pair (she may keep metal on her backs since that scar distorts so easily) instead of 40. they also look like they have good grip. i have had that issue with boots. my mare has slipped and fallen several times with boots on and she works on her downhill rening slides with boots too when riding (she needed them for her backs for a bit). I FINALLY got an extra 8 hours a week at work so i can see buying the shoes. She is comeing up on another trim and ill stick with light rims for this trim. want to bring her heals to a more normal hight and see if that works for her. Ill look at getting a pair of easy walkers.


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## Yogiwick

Trinity3205 said:


> These shoes can last up to a year, require no special tools, nail on and have alot of support, Any farrier can apply them. They can be rasped off to improve breakover. They can be shapes with nippers and a rasp. You can put a nail anywhere on the shoe including outside of the nail track. They costs 10 bucks a shoe and come in colors for an added bonus although I use clear so I can see better. You need to start thinking outside of the box on how some changes can be made to happen for this horse if you want to help it. Special needs horses arent easy. They are not cheap. They will emotionally and financially tax you at times and make you step past what is easy to get to the right thing. I didnt read the entirety of the thread due to lack of time, but there it is.
> 
> Ground Control Horseshoes - Online Store


This this this a million times. (Don't know anything about the shoes but they look pretty amazing for this situation. The price may save you/her. Just responding to the rest of the post. The look outside the box part is very worthwhile.)


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## SueNH

Those ground control shoes intrigue me. I'm nowhere good enough to nail anything on though. I may just bit the bullet and pay a farrier a time or two to see. The crushed granite they use on the dirt roads here is just too tough on my mare that lives on river bottom land.

Hoof can still move and flex.

Kiger, you don't have much to loose trying them at 9.50.


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## evilamc

I would think those shoes would last even longer since she doesn't ride much and is stalled. They wouldn't get worn down very fast!


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## Horseychick87

loosie said:


> ok looked again at earlier pics. She is perhaps *marginally* less 'camped under' in front, maybe. But due to the 'jacked up' heels, she can't straighten/lock her legs, relax down on her heels. Obviously not even comfortable enough to stand straight(so I don't get how anyone can call it 'sound' or consider riding), and considering the xrays, the internal structures, being unsupported & given more 'room to move' with peripheral rims, will only drop/imbalance further.


 That is what I meant, after seeing how camped under she was, she was standing a bit more relaxed in the newer photo's. Still by no means completely comfortable, but at least she may have some kind of relief going on.


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## KigerQueen

Well she was actually standing like a normal horse today! of course she was cracked out of her mind (too much alfalfa) so she did not do much standing still. The 20 min it took to braid her tail must have killed her XD!!! Turned her out and she ran at least 12 laps around the arena. And all heal first landings too. makes me happy. I have seen the ground control shoes before. i knew someone who used a shoe like it and it did not do anything favorable for her horse. I may still try them. the issue out here is that all the trails are hard and rocky, so a small trail may just kill the shoes. she also is never just standing in her stall. she must walk at least 5 miles a day in that thing 0.0' Now that being said i may still give them a try. Im still a bigger fan of the easy walker. they are more open so i can clean out her feet more. even bare i was picking all sorts of crap out. we are talking about a mare who pees then turns around and stands in it -_-'.


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## loosie

Why are you considering the ground control or easywalkers over steel bar shoes? Are they cheaper?


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## Yogiwick

Can't speak for the OP but the shoes Trinity posted are dirt cheap. Pretty close to literally. For shoes they are worth a try on price alone imo as long as they are decent and won't create further issues.


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## KigerQueen

Because they can be reset so its last longer for a reasonable price. if they lasted only one cycle, no id stick with steel. she is fine as of now so unless she starts having issues i wont worry about it right away. the easy walkers would be plan B for shoes. this horse is almost 20. she is comfortable as of now, heal first landings (would not happen if she was still having heal pain issues) and absolutely out of her sane mind right now. i can safely say my riding season with her is over. she cant even contain herself at the hitching post. aparently everything including the wind is going to eat her -_-'. I need to see if i can get my hand on some raspberry leaves and wild yam. see if that helps her settle her down a bit. at this rate i wont have a rideable horse untill october.


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## Horseychick87

I do like all of the options for shoes I'm seeing, it gives you a good range to try.

I know that most of the farriers around here reset shoes, they seem to last for two cycles, but our ground is mostly sand so they probably don't wear down as quickly as shoes on rougher ground.

Does anyone know how long the different shoes listed above last on average?

LOL, I've been lucky to not have a 'crazy' mare issue, all of the mares I've ridden have been very calm, even while cycling. Now put a loose dog in their pasture and you'd see a whole different horse(s), LOL.


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## KigerQueen

the frustrating part is the first year i had her a rode her WITH studs (and boarded her across from one) and she never let out a peep. she would MAYBE leave a calling card but otherwise she gave me no sign she was in heat. next year she was still queit though during the heat of the summer she turned into a major pain. Blanmed it on the 110 degree heat, id be an jerk too and i really didnt want to ride so i did not think too much on it. next year she A#$%ed out when the weather was still cool out. started thinking she was full of crap, she whent back to being a good pony in the fall (as she did since the issues started). and last summer she was not even mentaly a horse on the ground. this is a horse who wants to please, is used as the example horse in clinics and gets what they are teaching right away, and mines her ps and qs on the ground she suddenly has panic attacks outside of her stall and tried to run you over (never gets away with it but she is shut down as soon as she leaves her stall, all she wants to do is go back in her stall). 
i think she has painful heats. when we arrived first day of camping i watched her squirt. most mares somewhat hunched over when they do that, then go back to normal within a mater of seconds. she sat hunched over for about 2 min and then had her abdomen sucked in for another min. NOT normal.


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## Horseychick87

Have you ever had her ovaries looked at to see if she has cysts? If so that can make her even more grumpy than normal, but I know of some mares who's cycles just got progressively worse for no 'apparent' reason, perfectly healthy, no cysts, nothing off on blood work, but boy, each year would bring a whole new mare when cycling.

One mare was retired to be a pasture ornament, and another I think was spayed, but she was young, about 6 years old if I'm remembering correctly.

All the trouble I've ever had has come from geldings oddly enough.


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## KigerQueen

I plan on it to be honest. but again vet bills at once -_-'. her limping was more important than her ****y mare syndrome. BUTTT my boos said im getting more hours and i got more than i was expecting this week so i may have him out for her PMS by the beginning of next month. if its actual cysts and not her just being a brat, ill call the vet clinic (that i like and is competent) dose mare spaying. IF they say she is too old to spay (just remove the ovaries) then ill just settle for riding her in the fall and winter. ill start working with my fiance's BLM mustang. at the moment he is just as reactive as her on a bad day. FIL tends to take "scarry" things away when he freaks out so he has learnt to be spooky -_-'.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> I plan on it to be honest. but again vet bills at once -_-'. her limping was more important than her ****y mare syndrome. BUTTT my boos said im getting more hours and i got more than i was expecting this week so i may have him out for her PMS by the beginning of next month. if its actual cysts and not her just being a brat, ill call the vet clinic (that i like and is competent) dose mare spaying. IF they say she is too old to spay (just remove the ovaries) then ill just settle for riding her in the fall and winter. ill start working with my fiance's BLM mustang. at the moment he is just as reactive as her on a bad day. FIL tends to take "scarry" things away when he freaks out so he has learnt to be spooky -_-'.


Ask your vet about possibly using Regu-Mate. It's worked well for some heat crazy horses I've known. It has to be cheaper than spaying.


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## SueNH

It's the magnesium in Raspberry leaves that do the work. Pumpkin seeds are another one to try.
If nothing else the pumpkin seeds make a nice healthy treat.

Even cheaper if you can get a bag of Magnesium Oxide and add a little to her feed. At $20 for a 50lb bag and a dosing of 1 or 2 spoonfuls a day it will last your little mare a long time.


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## jazzy475

SueNH said:


> It's the magnesium in Raspberry leaves that do the work. Pumpkin seeds are another one to try.
> If nothing else the pumpkin seeds make a nice healthy treat.
> 
> Even cheaper if you can get a bag of Magnesium Oxide and add a little to her feed. At $20 for a 50lb bag and a dosing of 1 or 2 spoonfuls a day it will last your little mare a long time.



^^ That's what i buy, and have a heck of time getting my horses to eat the stuff out of feed. Even soaked pellets they refuse to eat it if magnesium is mixed in.


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## SueNH

Mine aren't fussy.

I kind of rattle it around in the scoop so it will stick to a low carb, high fat senior feed I use. Some does fall off and gets left in their feed dishes but they seem to come back later and lick it up in hopes that more feed will miraculously appear.

I've tasted it. Bitter chalk but not so nasty I couldn't swallow.

I've got raspberries growing all over here and I've yet to see any of the horses go for any. I do see evidence of deer browsing them and the goats loved them.


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## Horseychick87

Good, she seem like she's a sweet girl when not going nuts ;-)

Yup Regu-Mate, Magnesium from powder, raspberries, or pumpkin seeds are al good options. I believe you said she's around 20? If so the vet may not want to spay her, but if she's got cysts then they may be still do something, I cannot remember the options for cysts, but I know the other options would likely be cheaper than spaying.

Congrats on getting more hours, it's always nice to have a little more money on hand, even if it has to go to outstanding bills.
I myself am hoping to hear back about a new paralegal job (*Fingers crossed*)


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## KigerQueen

she is getting epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) in her feed everyday. 

Also i have another cat crisis on my hands so vet followup will have to wait. i woke up to a more then half blind cat that looked like this (look at pics). So kinda freaking out but she goes to the vet at 2pm tomorrow. any sudden changes she is going to the emergency vet (where i can say good bye to more than half my monthly paycheck).


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## Horseychick87

Oh boy! Poor kitty, I hope nothing is permanently wrong.

Emergency vet visits can definitely eat up a lot of money, but since Negra's behavior is fairly 'normal' during this time of year at least you know what to expect for the most part.


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## Trinity3205

Just FYI on the Easy Walkers, once the grippy traction part of the shoe wears off, they are slick as snot on concrete. Also they require a special tool you must buy from easy walker to seat the nails properly. Easy Walkers are made from two materials. The shoe itself is hard plastic and slippery on its own. It has a bonded rubbery grip adhered to the bottom which is great while it lasts. I have a permanently broken elbow tip from them. We used them for maybe 3 months resetting shoes at 4 weeks and sold the remaining stock due to them only lasting 3 or 4 weeks before the grippy was too far gone and they were deemed slippery and dangerous. They are quite expensive and couldnt be reused. That is when we moved to the Ground Controls which could be reset until there was no more new places to put a nail. That is the only real reason the shoes were replaced. GCs are made of one material. They are pretty much made of what they make skateboard wheels from. There is no metal in them. If you do need a ridged shoe, Eponas or Easy Shoes would be more at the top of my list. You couldnt pay me to use Easy Walkers again. The horse I was riding was simply walking calmly and normally and his feet went out from under him. He landed on my leg and my elbow caught the brunt of my upper body falling. Broke it. Horses did not trust his own feet after that for a bit. Anyway, just some more info for you.


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## natisha

Trinity3205 said:


> Just FYI on the Easy Walkers, once the grippy traction part of the shoe wears off, they are slick as snot on concrete. Also they require a special tool you must buy from easy walker to seat the nails properly. Easy Walkers are made from two materials. The shoe itself is hard plastic and slippery on its own. It has a bonded rubbery grip adhered to the bottom which is great while it lasts. I have a permanently broken elbow tip from them. We used them for maybe 3 months resetting shoes at 4 weeks and sold the remaining stock due to them only lasting 3 or 4 weeks before the grippy was too far gone and they were deemed slippery and dangerous. They are quite expensive and couldnt be reused. That is when we moved to the Ground Controls which could be reset until there was no more new places to put a nail. That is the only real reason the shoes were replaced. GCs are made of one material. They are pretty much made of what they make skateboard wheels from. There is no metal in them. If you do need a ridged shoe, Eponas or Easy Shoes would be more at the top of my list. You couldnt pay me to use Easy Walkers again. The horse I was riding was simply walking calmly and normally and his feet went out from under him. He landed on my leg and my elbow caught the brunt of my upper body falling. Broke it. Horses did not trust his own feet after that for a bit. Anyway, just some more info for you.


Regarding the Easy Walkers. It must depend on the ground & the amount of riding because I never wore the grippy yellow off.


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## KigerQueen

She wears down her metal shoes rather quickly so she may wear the walkers down quickly.


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## SueNH

If those ground control shoes are lasting Amish buggy horses and being reset they have to be tough. Amish buggy horses rarely last 2 years before the horse is worn out and thrown away. They get some hard miles put on them.


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## KigerQueen

Soooo things for pony will be on pause for a bit. she is fine and being her normal self. i just spent another $340 on my poor cat who went blind overnight. I payed that for them to tell me "she is blind and here is some antibiotics, we have no idea what the flark it is". I suspect the prescription cat food that has been making cats sick recently. he says cat with renal disease can have hypertension that can cause things in the eye to rupture. But when i asked about the pet food he said it would have killed her out right. ummm it normals kills them by causing havoc in their bodies and renal failure... its not like we did not lose two cats to bad pet food in 2006 and had one become diabetic, who was diabetic until about 2 years befor he died last yer, who also when into renal failure....


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## jazzy475

KigerQueen said:


> Soooo things for pony will be on pause for a bit. she is fine and being her normal self. i just spent another $340 on my poor cat who went blind overnight. I payed that for them to tell me "she is blind and here is some antibiotics, we have no idea what the flark it is". I suspect the prescription cat food that has been making cats sick recently. he says cat with renal disease can have hypertension that can cause things in the eye to rupture. But when i asked about the pet food he said it would have killed her out right. ummm it normals kills them by causing havoc in their bodies and renal failure... its not like we did not lose two cats to bad pet food in 2006 and had one become diabetic, who was diabetic until about 2 years befor he died last yer, who also when into renal failure....


How old is the cat that went blind? I ask because i had a cat go suddenly blind who was 23 years old. Had her PTS vet told me she was going into renal failure.At 23 figured heroics weren't in the cards for the cat,plus i couldn't of afforded it.:wink:

lost my 6 year old cat here last month when vet failed to give vital information on blood panel that was taken.:twisted: Lead me to believe cat would be just fine, died 5 days later. That's after spending close to 600$ on it i'v got nothing to show for that, but a dead cat. Needless to say i wont take any animals back to that vet.:wink:


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## KigerQueen

she is 15. she went from fine to this within 24 days of being on that food (vet had me give her this food starting feb 21st). and Royal Canin has been having issues as of late. My other cat was puking it up and stopped eating it completely (should have taken the hint.) so im getting IV fluids from my horse vet tonight. Had a cat in renal failure for over a year without issues. he just went blind and could not adjust so we PTS. He was 17 and had had diabetes for 6 years, then re metabolizes and went into renal failure because we didn't know he no longer needed the insulin shots.


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## Horseychick87

I'm always nervous feeding commercially made foods to my animals, but my cat won't eat 'homemade' food (boiled or baked chicken and the like) he'll only eat canned Fancy Feast, why I have no clue, but it is what it is. I hadn't heard about RC having issues lately though.

Renal failure is definitely not fun for the animal or the owner, I hope she feels better soon.

I lost my dog when that huge contaminated pet food issue happened a few years ago. They did not list his food as affected by the contamination so we thought it was okay to keep feeding it and he went into renal failure and was gone within a week. Two days after he died they listed his food...


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## Yogiwick

natisha said:


> Ask your vet about possibly using Regu-Mate. It's worked well for some heat crazy horses I've known. It has to be cheaper than spaying.


That may be a good solution but first the cause must be established and appropriate actions taken.

I've even known some geldings on it. There are also other similar drugs available/herbal remedies etc.


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## KigerQueen

I personally dont want to be within 10ft of Regumate, and i also cant be out everyday so i cant ask anyone else to handle it either. I am all for trying smartpaks moody mare control or mare magic (raspberry leaves) or wild yams (natural estrogen). I was JUST about to order some from a friend like i had called her and was going to buy it next pay check) when kitty had an issue. I swear EVERYTIME i have more than $150 in my acount something needs a vet!!!


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## Horseychick87

I swear animals always seem to know when you have money, and that's when they get sick or break something. :/

How is the kitty doing btw? (I would have replied sooner but I was at LEGOLAND and had no internet.)


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## KigerQueen

her eye is almost normal and she can see although she seams a little unstable at times. Now PONY on the other hand decided to be sligHTLY gimpy yesterday though she acted fine today. next sat she is getting trimmed so hopefully that helps. Looking at easy walkers. i like the other ones ( like the epona shoes i think they are called) but the openings are so small i just see a lot of crap getting stuck in there. it gets stuck in there as it is with metal shoes and i have to really dig it out. 

Exactly HOW many shoeing could i get out of the easy shoes? i really like them but if i can only get two ii dont think i could swing that, but if i could get say 3, i think i could. i also like the easy walkers the easy walkers.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> her eye is almost normal and she can see although she seams a little unstable at times. Now PONY on the other hand decided to be sligHTLY gimpy yesterday though she acted fine today. next sat she is getting trimmed so hopefully that helps. Looking at easy walkers. i like the other ones ( like the epona shoes i think they are called) but the openings are so small i just see a lot of crap getting stuck in there. it gets stuck in there as it is with metal shoes and i have to really dig it out.
> 
> Exactly HOW many shoeing could i get out of the easy shoes? i really like them but if i can only get two ii dont think i could swing that, but if i could get say 3, i think i could. i also like the easy walkers the easy walkers.


Mine were rest every 6 weeks & while I don't remember exactly I know I got way more than 3 resettings from them. My ground is soft though.
One horse wore them from June to October & they were still good when they were removed for winter. The East Walkers, so as to not confuse you.


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## KigerQueen

Then i may go and order some on friday. her frogs are gone AGAIN! i mean there is just a concave space with a flat, concave thing that is a wannabe frog. her backs have amazing frogs. fronts are always lacking. her standing with one leg forward and the other back to pick at the ground dose not help. she always has that left lack stretched back and its dishing that hoof. the right is stretched out front and it's crushing her heels on that hoof.


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## liltuktuk

KigerQueen said:


> Then i may go and order some on friday. her frogs are gone AGAIN! i mean there is just a concave space with a flat, concave thing that is a wannabe frog. her backs have amazing frogs. fronts are always lacking. her standing with one leg forward and the other back to pick at the ground dose not help. she always has that left lack stretched back and its dishing that hoof. the right is stretched out front and it's crushing her heels on that hoof.


My mare had this issue, but maybe not as severe. When grazing she always has her left front back and her right front forward. Thus, her left front tends to have good heel height and a nice short toe. Her left front tends to have crushed heels and a longer toe. With proper trimming it took about a year before I noticed that she wasn't standing as crooked when grazing. She's starting to keep both feet more squared up under her than she used to. I suspect its ingrained in her to stand like that as she did it for the first 12 years of her life. I'm hoping some additional chiro work will also help.


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## KigerQueen

She has done this for 8+ years so I'm hopeing with the right shoeing I can kick her of the habbit. Most horses I know do it but she always is looking for something to nibble on.


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## Horseychick87

Glad to hear the kitty is getting her sight back. 
My aunt has a Chihuahua that has very bad seizures and goes blind each time it happens, but he regains his sight after a while. It does seem to affect him as far stability and he walks into stuff a lot.

Have her frog issues ever been identified? Like a deficient in her diet or something environmental? Hopefully the shoes will help.


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## KigerQueen

Well she is getting about 2 1/2 lbs of safe choice senior, 1tbs table salt, 1tbs Epsom salt (magnesium) along with 7lbs of Bermuda pellets soaked and 2 flakes of alfalfa a day. Her stall is dry (yay!) thanks to a pickup truck full of shavings (i need to get more soon to). I cant think of anything she is missing.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> Well she is getting about 2 1/2 lbs of safe choice senior, 1tbs table salt, 1tbs Epsom salt (magnesium) along with 7lbs of Bermuda pellets soaked and 2 flakes of alfalfa a day. Her stall is dry (yay!) thanks to a pickup truck full of shavings (i need to get more soon to). I cant think of anything she is missing.


Only 2 flakes of alfalfa? How big are the flakes?


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## KigerQueen

not particularly big. its what Bo feeds. hence why she is getting the pellets. If i dont buy extra feed my horse would be very underweight.


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## liltuktuk

2 1/2 lbs of safe choice senior is well below the recommended daily amount. When my mare was on that she was getting about 6 lbs a day, plus 20 lbs of grass mix hay, and a flax meal/vitamin supplement. You might consider using either a ration balancer or adding a vitamin and mineral supplement to her diet. Tractor supply has their own brand, Dumor Vitamin Gold, that's pretty inexpensive and decent.

I recommend signing up on FeedXL.com to see if she's missing anything in her diet.


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## KigerQueen

she was getting more but i cant afford to feet it to her in large amounts and the 30 year old tb. she is also a small lil arab and more then that she starting a cresty neck. tractor supply is over 30 miles away from here and quite the drive through traffic. i have looked for a ration balancer as well at other feed stores and just cant seam to find it. hence why she is getting safe choice senior at all.

in the pics you can kinda start seeing a bump in her crest.


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## Horseychick87

She seems okay weight wise in the photo's, probably (going on appearances, not hands on so..) a 4.5 to a light 5, which isn't bad. Maybe once her hooves are balanced and she's standing properly it'll help her frog.

I tend to prefer my horses a tad leaner, a 4.5/ 5 on the scale, but I also like to event so I'm used to seeing 'lighter' framed horses with lean muscle. 
Although I did read an article I think it was in EQUUS magazine about how horses under a certain weight, I think it was 700 pound can run into hoof issues due to 'lack' of weight on the hoof structure. I don't know how true it was, but it gave me something to think about.

Either way, so long as she's making progress that's what matters the most.


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## KigerQueen

Well when I tape her (I hve used two difrent methods) both ome to being 1050 whe she is t her ideal weight. She is in the 900s now. That puzzles the crap out of me. Ill tape her again today to see where she is at. She needs more wight on her hind end as its still more boney than I like. You can see that she is getting a bump on her neck, like she is getting some sort of cresty thing. She is not at a highenough weight to develop that. So I have that to deal with now.


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## Horseychick87

Yeah, the crest on her neck would worry me, especially since she does need to fill in her hindquarters a bit.

You can get a better estimate of her weight using this formula: Girth x Girth x length divide by 330= weight in pounds. It's far more accurate than a weight tape.

You measure the length from point of shoulder to point of buttock, and girth around the deepest part of her withers/ barrel, where the girth would sit. 
I found a horse I was helping with was 100 pounds lighter than what the weight tape was saying that way. 
Though tapes usually aren't that far off, it did worry me and the owner because he was very thin and we couldn't figure out why it said he was 900 pounds and he was still just 'too thin' looking all around...well it's because he was only 800 pounds, LOL. Once we had that number we just upped his hay and added a bit more alfalfa and he gained the weight pretty quickly. He was only 14 hands and a light/ narrow hunter build if that helps to visualize him.

We thought he had some kind of hidden health issue for a little while. Now I don't trust the tapes completely. For deworming I'll use one, but otherwise for feeding I do the formula method.

I can't wait to see how Negra stands after her next trimming.


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## Horseychick87

Ugh, I read your post as 2 different tapes, not methods. Reading for comprehension is not my thing today, LOL.


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> Well when I tape her (I hve used two difrent methods) both ome to being 1050 whe she is t her ideal weight. She is in the 900s now. That puzzles the crap out of me. Ill tape her again today to see where she is at. She needs more wight on her hind end as its still more boney than I like. You can see that she is getting a bump on her neck, like she is getting some sort of cresty thing. She is not at a highenough weight to develop that. So I have that to deal with now.


My Arab is roughly 14.2 and Polish/Crabbet. He is a healthy 850.

Honestly I don't care what the horse weighs when I feed. I care by how they look. Weight is a number. I had a friend 3 inches taller than me weigh 10lbs less than me when we were both in equal shape.

I don't see this mare at 1050 at any healthy weight and am betting she is less than 900 as well.

I'm missing how this is relevant to her feet though.


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## KigerQueen

it is and isnt. she taped at about 1,000 today. my tape my be off. last time i did the whole math thing it was within 3lbs of what the tape said so i just go off the tape.

she started doing something weird today. as i was braiding her mane she started chewing on her tongue. for the 4 years i have owned her she has NEVER done anything like that so, weird. then she tried to nip me. got on her for that but it was just weird. then i turned her out and she ran around for about 20 min straight. im assuming she is feeling good considering she was running around and screaming like a loon. by the time she was done it looked like i took the hose to her (i did after because i dont want all that sweat sitting on her). anyway i got some pics of her today. I also got pics of that funny crest thing she has. you can see by the pics that she dose not have enough weight on her for her to have that much squishy crest.


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## KigerQueen

horsey was saying some foot problems can arise form a horse being less than 700lbs. thats how it kinda started.


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## KigerQueen

Don't have pics bit she had her feet done yesterday. Walked her arounda bit and she was short stepping and walking more flat and toe fist. She also refused to trot. The only thing difrent my farrier did was brinf her heals down a little. I'm going to see her tonight so we will see how she is. Hopefuly she is feeling better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jazzy475

KigerQueen said:


> Don't have pics bit she had her feet done yesterday. Walked her arounda bit and she was short stepping and walking more flat and toe fist. She also refused to trot. The only thing difrent my farrier did was brinf her heals down a little. I'm going to see her tonight so we will see how she is. Hopefuly she is feeling better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



^^^ That doesn't sound good whatever farrier did has made her sore.:-( Can you get pictures? maybe farrier took off to much heel all at once?


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## KigerQueen

ill get pics tomorrow. he brought her down from 58 degrees to about 55 (it should be 52). I think its because bringing up the heals reduces navicular pain, but causes it to advance so we are bringing them down. she is not limping but she is not comfortable either. BUT this was the same day she was trimmed (i worked too late to see her today) so we will see how she is tomorrow. ill hopefully get vid of her too. I will be ordering the easy walkers since she will mostly be in her stall this summer. riding season is over as of today. we hit 97F and its not even april yet!!!


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## Horseychick87

Sorry about derailing the thread, thought it might be worth mentioning just in case.

Yeah, I hope she's more comfortable tomorrow. Hopefully the trims and the shoes will work for her and she'll start landing heel first again.


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## KigerQueen

well i got pics and vid (though i was fumbling in the vid a bit between the rope and the cell camera lol). She felt ALOT better yesterday. though she i still standing under herself all weird. im going to jump on this possible IR hard since i can see unusual lines in her hoof. there is some from diet change, but some dont look right. 

i am fighting with uploading the vid so ill post it later.


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## Horseychick87

Hmm, there is something not quite right, I can't put my finger on it, but her hooves look 'off' in a different way than before, or maybe I'm actually noticing it more now.

Yeah, she's still camped under, though not as much as in the beginning. I'm glad she's feeling better though.

I've forgotten, what does she get for feed?


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## KigerQueen

she was getting 10lbs of bermuda pellets (two 3qt scoops) but i may cut her down to 1 1/2 scoops. 5lbs (1 scoop) of senior though im going to cut her down to half a scoop. 1tps of epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) and 1tps of table salt. She also gets 2 flakes of alfalfa a day (from 150lb bales so the flakes can be anywhere from 7-12lb)


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## Horseychick87

Ah, okay.

I think I'd see about keeping the Bermuda pellets the same and see about a lower NSC senior feed in your area if there are any available. I think I remember you saying you couldn't find any ration balancers nearby or I'd suggest that.


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## KigerQueen

Its safe choice senior for horses with IR, Founder or cushings so the senior is safe to feed to her. she is getting less then 5lbs now. im lowering the pellets because she has been gaining weight and now that she is where she needs to be im going to back off a bit. i need to to get her off alfalfa but the issue is its ethier 2 flakes of alfalfa or 4lbs (a day total) of bermuda mix pellets.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> Its safe choice senior for horses with IR, Founder or cushings so the senior is safe to feed to her. she is getting less then 5lbs now. im lowering the pellets because she has been gaining weight and now that she is where she needs to be im going to back off a bit. i need to to get her off alfalfa but the issue is its ethier 2 flakes of alfalfa or 4lbs (a day total) of bermuda mix pellets.


4 pounds of pellets will not be enough for her. She'd gobble up 2 pounds then what?


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## KigerQueen

here is the vid (finally!)

https://youtu.be/PySIvmDm3E8


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## KigerQueen

exactly. thats why i dont want to do the pellets. not fair to her.


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## Horseychick87

She seems to have more bounce to her gaits now.  Before she seemed a bit flat.

I think once her feed is tweaked and her hooves are balanced you'll see a big change in her. She certainly seemed energetic in the video.


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## KigerQueen

Yah she is feeling better. I am going to have him get more agressive with her brake over again and have him use the easy walker shoes. I am going to see if I can lower my board if I suply my won hay. That way she will only be getting bermuda. Being an arab with no turnout she has no business eating alfalfa, thro ir into it and she definatly dose not need it.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> exactly. thats why i dont want to do the pellets. not fair to her.


As she was clearly hungry on the hay alone why not give her 1# of pellets too? She'll lose what she gained on the same amount of hay only.


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## KigerQueen

Becaue hey is expensive. And she has choked on hay so I can't give her free chouse hay. Its 16to18 a bale for bermuda grass hay. While I'm paying %20 for 100lbs of bermuda pellets that she can eat less o to keep weight. For 2 flakes of bermuda a day I would be buying a bale a week. Bee there and done that, its way expensive. Now I'm willing to buy some hay and supliment what she needs with pellets.


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## KigerQueen

So talked to bo and he said would feed bermuda if I buy it. Sooo there is more mone I can't afford but will have to. I will have to buy hay in bulk to keep cost down.


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## Horseychick87

Glad to hear he'll feed it to her if you but it. When does 'hay season' start out there?


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## KigerQueen

its year round here. we mow it like normal grass and it just grows back after a couple of weeks. in az we have 4 growing seasons, which is why its so ridiculous that we are the second most expensive state for hay -_-'. im looking at paying $16 every week in summer. and for some reason in winter (where it gets o colder than 30 out with highs in the 50-60s) its more expensive like around the $17-$20. one place tried to charge me $27 for 1 bale of grass hay!!!


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## Horseychick87

Wow, hay season is almost year round here as well, but because of rain and the fact that we do get in the teens we miss a little more time than AZ does.

Maybe the prices are because of water consumption to keep it growing?

$27 does seem steep though. Here Bermuda can be bought for $5-$6 for a 45 lb bale and $40-$60 for a 600 pound round bale.

I will be interested to see if the increase in long stem grass hay has any effect on her hooves.


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## Yogiwick

I see a horse that still needs to gain weight.

That tiny bump in her crest isn't really something I would personally read too much into (but I am on the outside looking in).

If you want to feed Safe Choice they have a Special Care option specifically for metabolic issues . I would not feed the Senior if that is your concern.

The bottom of her foot looks narrower than the top in those pics.


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## KigerQueen

it is safe choice so the senior is not too big of an issue. and i agree that she could still gain hence why the growing lump on her chest is a bit worry some. she did not have that before when she weighed more.

Here are some pics.
first is sept 2012
april 2014
june 2014
last is recent


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## KigerQueen

with her hooves it could be the angle. it was hard to get good pics while holding her foot and having a crappy slow camera.


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## Horseychick87

I don't think I ever asked, is that bump squishy or firm?

I think the Safe Choice Special care is 15% NSC while the senior is 20% NSC. Other than that they are pretty well identical.

Will you be able to have the hay tested?

Either way, she does look like she's coming along from the recent photo's of her. I always expect progress to be slow, especially with older horses and harder keepers as far as their hooves go.


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## KigerQueen

its firm, not at all squishy. and the hay quality changed monthly so there is no point in testing. BO always goes to the same farm and one load looks like straw, while the next is horsie crack (extremely rich like it is currently). im seeing if i can get her blood tested on the 6th (there is a teeth and shot clinic at the barn with my vet). it has to be in the am before she eats and the afternoon before she eats again. she may end up getting a late breakfast if it works out.


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## trailhorserider

I really don't consider her cresty at all. 

Maybe she has a bit of a swan neck. Here is a definition I found.....where else, on an old Horse Forum post:
_
The horse has a neck set at a high upward angle, with the upper curve arched, yet a dip remains in front of the withers and the muscles bulge on underside. 
This conformation type is common, especially in Saddlebreds, Gaited horses, and Thoroughbreds 
A swan neck makes it easy for a horse to lean on the bit and curl behind without lifting its back. 
Often cause by incorrect work or false collection. _

I was trying to find some pictures on Google for comparison but am having little luck. Sounds like a variation of a ewe neck. 

I don't know, but I just don't see her as cresty. And I agree, don't be afraid to give her some more groceries if you can. She's NOT overweight by any stretch of the imagination.

I LOVE the way she moves at liberty! So beautiful!


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## jazzy475

No she doesn't have a cresty neck at all, i wouldn't worry,she could use some more weight though. Looks good in video seems to be moving alot better.:wink:


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> it is safe choice so the senior is not too big of an issue. and i agree that she could still gain hence why the growing lump on her chest is a bit worry some. she did not have that before when she weighed more.
> 
> Here are some pics.
> first is sept 2012
> april 2014
> june 2014
> last is recent


Again, personally (in pics online) I'm not seeing anything to be concerned about crest wise. (I assume that was a typo for crest ;P) Yes there is a _very_ slight change. That is all. Neither the before nor after is worrisome and there is a 2 year difference. Attached is a picture of my IR horses crest. A good 3-4 inches while the rest of him is thin/lean.

The point is that Safe Choice has a feed better suited to your needs (by the sound of it). Though there are other brands that may be better I was just pointing that out as it is relative new and I didn't know if you were aware of it. So if your goal is lower NSC get the same feed that is specifically designed for lower NSC.


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## KigerQueen

she is currently on safe choice special care senior (most people at the barn feed it as well). last thing that spazz needs is more sugar XD! her and the old man snort lines together apparently, so they are being cut off from as much pony crack as i can. `
Ill keep an eye on it. its just a notable change in her neck over the past cuple of months. the funny thing is that in the older pics she used to fight me all the time and keep her head way up all the time. now she rides like a qh with her head level or down. but i haven't ridden her enough to really help create any muscle on her. But now that i have aquired a surcingle i plan on doing lots of ground driving with her. She will be getting the easy walker shoes on next cycle as well. her frogs are starting to grow now so the added frog support will be needed. 

I really wish i could feed her hay with a slow feeder right now. yesterday when i was walking her to the arena she started grinding her teeth (NEVER has done that). she was also acting off. like she was not "feeling well". not really spunky when i turned her out but would move around willingly when i asked. i went to look at her teeth (something we fight on and off about since i got her) and she just leaned into my hand and just sat there with my holding her lip. i cut back on her vinegar incase its ulcers (would not surprise me sadly). 


Sorry if it seams like im looking for every little thing wrong with her. i listened to everyone at the ranch before when nothing was a "big deal". so im kinda paranoid.


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## Yogiwick

Kiger is she on Special Care OR Senior? It really doesn't matter; I just don't feel like you are understanding the point that I'm trying to get across. There is Senior then they also have a relatively new Special Care. I am simply suggesting that if you want lower NSC to swap to the Special Care as out of all their products it is specifically designed for a lower NSC and to be healthy for horses with metabolic issues hence the name. (Though as stated I'm not sure that's a specific issue for your mare). So point is the Special Care is _lower _NSC than the Senior, they are two different feeds in the same product line. That is all lol, feed what you want I just feel like we are talking about two different things! If you got that already sorry, I'm just tired.. The sugar comment I didn't get.

She sounds pretty sore 

Just curious about the vinegar- ACV? I haven't heard of vinegar being fed to horses.


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## KigerQueen

Yes its ACV. it helps reduce calcium buildup and keeps flies off. i see what you are talking about (sorry for some reason, and lack of sleep, i though the senior was also called special care). i dont think anyplace will carry it around here for cheaper/same price as the safe choice senior. im about to ween her off of it all together a i just cant afford to feed it to her at the small amounts (its really for the 30 year old tb).ill ask the local feed store if they have a ration balancer.


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## KigerQueen

I have some pics from saturday. also have some front hoof pics from friday. i did some ground driving with her and she had a blast with hi. she still seems off though. like she suddenly just dose not have the energy (depressed maybe? or not feeling well?) she did what i asked though. never knew she could do a lil show trot at walking speed XD!

Anyway, vet will be out am and pm to draw blood from her. id rather be safe than sorry. this has been nagging at me for over a year and
i currently have the funds (kinda) to just get it done.


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## KigerQueen

well my BO is REALLY good at paying attention when i'm talking. i said "DO NOT FEED HER MONDAY AM UNTIL AFTER 9 AM!". well vet comes out and what you'd you know? she is happily munching on her hay. so there is $70 right down the drain. and now i cant afford it because my bill will go from 320 to 440. nope. she will have to deal.


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## Horseychick87

Oh boy! I'm so sorry to hear that.

Her pictures do show her standing a tad bit better than last time though.

I was curious about the bump on her crest because I've seen a horse once before with a similar bump but it wound up being an abscess, took forever for anyone to figure it out.

Do you think to BO would use the slow feeder if you say stuffed a bunch of nets at the beginning of the week? If you had a clip system or a box that the net was snapped into all he'd have to do was snap it on and go.


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## KigerQueen

i have tried slow feeder nets with her... she ate the first one (as it i was finding bits her her crap. THAT was terrifying! she ate all but the top 3 inches of it!!!) and chewed a hole in the second so she could just pull all the hey out at once -_-'. and no he wouldn't, too much work. i want to make a slow feeder where i could shove an entire bale in it and it took her a few days of slow munching to eat it. problem is that IF the horse already has food (like if you feed extra) at feeding time he will simply not feed the horse. we always feed ours extra after feeding time so thats not an issue.


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## Horseychick87

Ah, that's right, Negra likes to eat her hay nets! I knew there was a horse on here who did that, but forgot who, LOL.

I wonder if one of those plastic boxes with metal grates would work, but I'm a bit leery of those, I don't like the idea of teeth scraping on metal personally.

How is Negra doing today?


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## BreezylBeezyl

Negra is a pretty old girl, I like her! She does seem to be standing a little better as of the more recent pictures, I hope she keeps improving.


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## KigerQueen

i actually have a slow feeder made of old fencing XD! it worked untill she bent it pack and forth so much she BROKE the fencing!!! old BO (who thought slow feeders where mean) was saying she thought her mouth hurt. opened her mouth, not a single mark, she looked perfectly fine so there is that. i knew she needed one after taking an equine nutrition class, just where im at now its no feasible. i am worried about giving her free range grass hay because she choked in her grass hay last august... the had it in her lungs too vet did not give a very good prognosis. you could hear her gurgling from 10ft away.

here is a pic of it. i want to make a wood box and have a front panel that is chainlink. you can pull it back and forth without it braking.


ill try to get pics of her today but no promises. my fiance has been gone for about a week moving a friend and her horses from here to south dakota. he is getting home later today, and we have to get more feed and do a few things. poor guy has not eaten in 2 days and is exhausted so asking him to go play 'horsie horsie" is not the nicest thing to do right now XD!


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## jazzy475

Looks like negra's jaw is swollen in the picture of her today. Did she hurt herself some how??


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## KigerQueen

that was from 2014. she was chewing and it was an awkward angle XD here is a better pic of her that day. her eyes where bothering her (like they are now) from all the pollen and flies. wish she would not be a pain for putting a fly mask on.


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## natisha

Didn't you once have her at a place with grass & a couple of ponies or am I thinking of someone else?


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## KigerQueen

yeah i did for a while. but lady flipped out because the mares had a moment and mine was bigger (told her it would happen). she started having a crazy moment (and i just left a crazy moment) so i was done. i moved her the next day. it sucks though because i wish i could have kept her there. and she is a better grazer than the ponies. she moves around ALOT and gets the areas the ponies missed.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> yeah i did for a while. but lady flipped out because the mares had a moment and mine was bigger (told her it would happen). she started having a crazy moment (and i just left a crazy moment) so i was done. i moved her the next day. it sucks though because i wish i could have kept her there. and she is a better grazer than the ponies. she moves around ALOT and gets the areas the ponies missed.


There has to be more places around like that, minus the crazy.
To be honest I've always had Arabians & I never had one with navicular disease. I don't even know any with it. Maybe your horse does have it & even if not I think she would be better off at a different place, one where she can move around & at least some place that likes horses & goes out of their way a bit for them.

Have you tried stopping at 'few horse' backyard barns? Maybe someone would be glad to have some help now & then. I know I would be.


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## KigerQueen

well i was at a friends barn and it ended in them thinking they knew what was better for my horse (as in not using the slow feeder) and steeling my hay (no way in hell she went through a 150lb bale in a day and a half!). I have visited the barns in the area. one is a training only brn and just board is $600 a month (no turnout). another has about 15 horses out on a half acre dirt lot...

i have ben looking for some areas with grazing. there is a somewhat retirement home for horses but i dont know how much it is. i have planned on making a call. issue is that is almost 45 min away and i dont have the gas for that.


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## Horseychick87

That can be the trouble with boarding barns sometimes.
I have some options nearby my home, 
Option one $375 month, the horses get daytime turnout, hay in their stalls at night, hay in the pasture during the day, arenas and trainers on call, but it's a cattle farm and fencing is a combination of cattle type field fencing and barb wire, so nope no improper fencing for me.

The second one is lovely! wonderful place when I saw it, same care as above, but with nice fencing, cost $1,400 month! I about passed out when I saw that price! For $1,400 a month I can buy my own farm!

There are more laces, usually smaller, 4-8 horse barns with excellent care, so that's what I'm looking into now.

But if I remember correctly boarding in AZ with grass pasture comes at a premium because of the water used.


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## KigerQueen

yep. pasture in az for not a crazy price is about 2 hours away. So i am just going to hold on until my fiance starts driving truck. we will buy our own land and build pastures there.


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## KigerQueen

so after learning that easywalker is gone, i am just going to try the ground control shoes. now im trying to order from their website and its says $9.50 a shoe. ok, what ever, but when i go to order 2 it comes up with $19.50. umm im now really confused (this is before shipping info). is the $9.50 for the pair or shoe, that has me confused as well.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> so after learning that easywalker is gone, i am just going to try the ground control shoes. now im trying to order from their website and its says $9.50 a shoe. ok, what ever, but when i go to order 2 it comes up with $19.50. umm im now really confused (this is before shipping info). is the $9.50 for the pair or shoe, that has me confused as well.


It seems to be $9.50 per shoe.


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## KigerQueen

Well orderd a pair and they should be here this week. She may getrimmed a lil early and get th put on this next week. In other news I had a blast ground driving her today!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horseychick87

Can't wait to see her new shoes.

How did she like the ground driving?


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## KigerQueen

Well I have never been able to get such a nice trot out of her under saddle. Almost gt her lopeing but she was getting confused. And when she is conused her keps her head up so need to work on that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horseychick87

LOL, the head up thing, I used to ride a gelding that would do that when he got confused, he was half Arab.

Does she seem to step out any better with her new trim?


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## KigerQueen

well ground control shoes came in yesterday. they will probably go on tomorrow! ill take before and after pics/vid (maybe, we try to not move them around alot after a trim)


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## Horseychick87

Nice, can't wait to see the pic's.


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## KigerQueen

well the pics are mia (fiance deleted them from his cell before the email sent -_-'). but i got after vid. 
https://youtu.be/xBcLcd97w4A


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## Horseychick87

I'm no expert, but it looks like she's moving better with the new shoes.


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## KigerQueen

i got pics and my pony is standing NORMAL!!! She got a full haircut today (she likes her winter coat and wont give it all up. so i clipped WITH the hair to make it summer length). i also did an arabian cut on her face (like you can tell -_-') as i'm going to start showing her in open halter. i think she has shown before because i asked her to set up 3 times and she squared right up with her right rear leg slightly back each time.


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## KigerQueen

more pics


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## natisha

While she's standing well on the fronts she is still under herself behind. Does she have issues there too?


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## KigerQueen

She is sycle hocked to an extent s that dose not help. And in the pics where she is on the dirt she was on a slight hill so that did not help. The only issues she has with her backs is a hoof scar that is only through one laer of the hoof and a locking patella that acts up once in a blue moon. Vet did a lameness exame on her backs too and got nothing thankfully.


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## natisha

I don't think she's sickle hocked all that much. Can you get a side picture of her hock lined up with the point of the buttock? In other words, bring her legs back.


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## KigerQueen

i can try tomorrow. i may need help as when i tie her up on any flat surface (where she is not happy) she stands under herself in irritation. its the weirdest thing with her. put water on the ground or make her stand on something she dose not like and she stands under herself with all her legs like this. (look at first pic) that was the im not standing on the wet mat tantrum. i do have older pics of her standing "square". ill post them.


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## Patty Stiller

She looks SO uncomfortable in her hind end.... no horse stands that way if they feel alright in their hind feet and back. So the pain could be from be one or the other or both. 
Also, have your farrier take a rasp and roll the front of those shoes.A lot. Just as if the toes were worn out. The breakover point is much too forward so she is landing toe first at a walk partly because of the where the end of the toes of the shoes are. 
Since the shoe design does not offer better breakover , the farrier needs to grind or rasp it in it is easy to do with the shoe on the foot. Bot more worrisome is how bad she is in the hind end. That is a sore horse.


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## Patty Stiller

> Well I have never been able to get such a nice trot out of her under saddle. Almost gt her lopeing but she was getting confused. And when she is conused her keps her head up so need to work on that.


It is more likely from PAIN.


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## KigerQueen

Chiro and vet can't fin anything wrong with the back end. I can't aford the $700+ for her pelvis to get xrayd at the clinic so that's not happening. It could be a side afect from being fliped over repeatedly by the charros. I have no idea. I will have my farrier take her hind ends back more and ill rasp her shoes off more fo a brake over. She is brakeing over realy well though.


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## KigerQueen

sorry for typos, my cell hates me. i had the vet out about her back end a cuple of years ago and she has seen the chiro about it. her hip was out but that was about it. i can bring her to my friend (who is a licenced chiro) and have her look at her again. i have not found any pain in the back end and neither has the vet. if we take her toes WAY back on her hind end and leave the heals slightly longer she stands more normal. i dont necessarily like FORCING her to stand that way though. im having the vet back out for follow up x rays in july and i can have him loot at her backs again.


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## Horseychick87

I didn't expect those ground control shoes to be so...thick, LOL. I've never seen them on a horse or in close up pictures, so they seem kind of thick to me, but so long as she's comfy in them that's what counts. 

I hope she starts doing better in her hind end, but up front I've seen some improvements.


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## KigerQueen

im going to get ground control shoes for the back. who knows, it might help her back end.


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## KigerQueen

well i found out today that Furminator shampoo and conditioner works WONDERS for horses!!! majorly cut down on her shedding and made her feel like velvet! my friend came over and played around with her a bit. this horse has done halter before. she was getting her to set up, pivot and stand while we moved all around her with no training involved. she just did it. She was adamant that me and my mare go to the show this weekend so thats what we are going to do. just halter, nothing crazy or strenuous. 

Ill try to get more pics tomorrow if she dose not turn into a dirt ball overnight


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## Horseychick87

I've always wanted to try the furminator comb, I haven't seen the shampoo or conditioner. I do love that velvety feeling.


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## KigerQueen

got more pics of her today (kinda set up) with her show halter. its just an open show so nothing fancy. we did try an arabian halter on her she she did amazing with it. she was trying to fall asleep when we were working on where i need to stand and such. it should be fun once we get to the show. she is going to be snorting fire once she sees where she is at. 
forgive her sleepiness. she had been standing there for about an hour while my fiance was unloading shavings from my truck bed into her stall.


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## trailhorserider

Very pretty halter and she's standing more normal. 

Ideally she needs a little more weight for showing though. I know you're doing what you can. But just saying......


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## KigerQueen

agreed she needs more weight. she is getting 10lbs of soaked Bermuda pellets and 10lbs of alfalfa Bermuda mix pellets a day along with 5lbs of senior. BO ether feeds alfalfa (either compete garbage or still wet alfalfa that is horsie crack from hell) or Bermuda blend pellets. since this lil mare dose not need THAT much energy (and still waiting on getting blood test for IR) she does not need the alfalfa. Im going to up her pellets and senior once i have a big enough bucket for it (add water and suddenly it overflows soaked pellets). she dose not look that thin in person. at least from behind. she needs hill work. i just dont know if I AM ready for hill work!


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## Horseychick87

LOL, I've overflowed a bucket with not only pellets, but beet pulp also....I felt so special.

She is a pretty girl and did stack up better in the photos and once up to weight I think she'll look very good.


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## KigerQueen

Ill get vid/pics of the show on sunday. it probably wont be purdy since its my first show and my mare will probably be breathing fire showday.


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## Horseychick87

LOL, I love the ' fire breathing' moments.


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## KigerQueen

No show tomorrow. huge storm rolled in and there will be flooding. they canceled the show and will have it at a later date (when the arena's are not slippery soup for obvious safety reasons). all well, more time to prepare.


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## Horseychick87

Aw, sorry to hear that, but safety first and all that ;-), maybe by the time they reschedule the show Negra will be even more ready for it.


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## KigerQueen

its in june so its going to suck. its supposed to be 101 on wednesday and its only getting hotter from there...


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## Horseychick87

Oh goody 101! I know what that's like, plus the horrible humidity that comes with being in FL. Would they maybe move it indoors since they should know how hot it will be by that time?


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## KigerQueen

there is no indoor at the showgrounds we are going to. it would cost A LOT of money to use the states only air conditioned arena. 

not much to update. i'm going to set up a appointment with the vet for july for re-x raying her hooves. probably to the nav skyline as well. she is looking better DESPITE what the BO is "feeding" her. cant wait until we can move the horses. as of now not much of an option. soo ill just keep feeding her 20lbs of pellets soaked.


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## KigerQueen

added about 1 qt of strategy healthy edge to her feed. seriously in about a week it put some SERIOUS weight on her 0.0'. and made her a bit of a spazz. i got vid of her today, i dont know if she is gimping just because, or its a result of her "moment" from earlier. she decided "i dont have to listen to you!" and refused to let me catch her after turning her out in the arena. well she got in A LOT of trouble for that, and once i had her she decided to act like i had beaten her (i guess cutting her off several times and calmly putting a halter is beating) and ran around me like i was going to eat her -_-'. this is why i cant have nice things...

the pics where after our episode. she was falling asleep with me grooming her. then i tried to lead her back to her stall and we had another meltdown cuz you know, there's food in her stall and she had to get there before the food fairies stole it... soooo to the round pen we went. and then there was gimping so i quit her shortly after vid. but she figured out that i was not putting up with it, regardless if she is a sad sack or not.

https://youtu.be/poxyw04GwCA


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## Horseychick87

LOL, maybe she's learned if she limps she can get out of work? I knew a pony gelding who would develop a limp when his owner would show up, but was otherwise fine. Some equines are too smart for their own good.

Glad to hear she put some weight on, too bad she spazzed on it.


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## KigerQueen

well her shoes are getting reset tomorrow. and i have a set for her backs in the mail, should be here on wednesday so she will have them but on her back end when she comes in.

But i got this epic halter as a b-day gift (parentals got it from ozarkmama).


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## natisha

The halter looks beautiful on her (slide the conchos up a bit & it'll be perfect)


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## KigerQueen

i would but they cant go up further lol XD! thank you!!!


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## Horseychick87

I love that halter on her!

You'll have to share pic's of her hind shoes, resets, and when she finally gets to that show.


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## MaximasMommy

I think the last set of pics are the first ones I've seen where she had a little shine in her eye. You seem to be slowly beating this thing together


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## KigerQueen

than you! i have a good farrier who is willing to try new things, as he is not in it at all for money, he just cares about the horse. and the shoes are helping A LOT. I have given up riding her as i think her past history of being tripped is catching up with her. the clicking in her neck is getting worst too. im tempted to have her neck x-rayed when i have her hooves re-xrayed. she is enjoying being walked and being lazy XD! now if only i had a horse i could ride.


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## Horseychick87

It's a shame her past is catching up to her like it is. Hopefully she'll be able to be comfortable once everything get's lined up and in place.

Have you considered working as an exercise rider at your barn or other local barns? You could do it for free in exchange for the rides or even charge a small fee, and you'd be able to set your own hours that way.


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## Saddlebag

Because she's sore, her muscles will tighten all the way to the poll. This could be causing the click. Her independence made me laugh. This morning I let the two boys out in another field. My walker, who usually stops for an outstretched "hello" pulled a smartypants and took off about 30'. OK. I meandered along, not looking at him but the sky or trees until I was directly behind him, about 20' back. He was grazing and would look first with one eye then the other but didn't move his butt away. My moment came and I ran a few steps, clapped my leather gloves together and he shot off. I turned and started walking away and the look on his face "ok,ok, I'm coming" and he did right smartly. He got a few lip twitching scratches and I left.


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## KigerQueen

well fronts where reset and backs had the ground controls put on. FIL put a good brake over on her backs as well as the fronts. silly horse did NOT know what to make of the back shoes. She is a horrible toe drager when it comes to her backs, but with the brake over, she cant seem to drag them. this confused her and she temporarily forgot how to trot XD! BUT the big success it that when she was eating in her stall she was standing COMPLETELY NORMAL! as in no camped under in tha back, and no camped under in the front! im charging my olympus camera to take good pics tomorrow. my cell was dead and it take potato quality pics anyway. ill get some good ones in raw file.


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## KigerQueen

as for her neck, i normally would agree, but all of her bending is AT her poll. she will flex down and to the right fine. i can get her to flex to flex to the left (by asking with a treat of acting like i have one) but you can tell its hard for her. it might be form soreness but the clicking sounds like some sort of arthritis, and with being flipped over quite a few times, i would be surprised if she did not have neck issues.


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## Horseychick87

Awesome! Can't wait to see the pictures. 

LOL with the forgetting to trot. I knew a horse that wouldn't walk forward with shipping boots on, only backwards, he backed onto the trailer wonderfully (he could travel backwards in that trailer.)

Yeah you know that wasn't easy/ gentle on her body. I'm surprised she didn't severely break something. I've seen some nasty injuries from horse tripping.


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## Saddlebag

Muscles that have been tense a long time take a while to lengthen again. Perhaps now that she's more comfortable you can help her work on this. Carrot stretches are good as it provides incentive for her to try a little harder.


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## KigerQueen

well one step forward 4 steps back. she was in quite a bit of pain on her front right. cleaned the hoof, not trimmed to drastically, no heat but no heal pain either (heal first landings). she nearly falls over when i asked her to cross the right front over to the left, and trotting to the right (for like 5 steps) she was 3 legged lame. the most baffling part is that she is now standing like a NORMAL horse. her fronts not as far under her as she was standing, and her backs not as camped under. im going to go gray over this mare...

ill post hoof and stance pics first.


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## SueNH

She is camped under in those pics. I don't know what else to tell you other than give it some time because the back shoes may have changed things. It may just take time.

Those ground control shoes intrigue me. I'd love to put some on my mare but I'm afraid I'd have to find a farrier with a clue; then find one with a clue that is willing to experiment a bit. Not a search I'm up for at this time.


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## KigerQueen

i know she is camped under still in the pics, just not to her normal degree. she was standing better on wednesday but because her hoof hurts she was compensating. we are going to give her a cuple of days and see if she improves. if not we are going to pull that front shoe and see if its a hot nail issue. dont think thats what it is because we moved her around after all the shoes where on to see if she moved normal (also the normal horse kinda lets you know when you slam a nail in wrong).


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## Horseychick87

She is standing more spread out, especially if you compare the most recent picture to the very first one you posted of her.

Have you tested her for any possible neurological issues. You don't need a vet to do it, just an extra set of hands. I've not noticed any of the facial signs listed, but I like to do the test on each new horse I work with, just to see how they respond and know what a 'normal' reading is for them. Test Your Horse's Nervous System | EQUUS Magazine

I think from the photo's her front right heel is still crushed under a bit, but it does look like she maybe has more heel growth than before.

All in all she's making baby steps in her progress, and that is certainly better than none at all.


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## KigerQueen

Yes I have done the nuro test on her. Did that when this irst started happening before the vet came out. 

She is still off. Asked her to trot on the line for just a cupl of steps. She actedlik she was trying to pace and then just walked. I just turned her out in the arena to do her own thing. I put the old man out with her too. The both of them are a matced set in gimpyness. He is blowing an abcess (from a stepping on a rock) and she is just sad. They are both hapily walking around. She looks fine unless you really watch her. You can see she if off but not unless you are looking closly.

Now she drank hardly any water yesterday. She is a bit dehydrated. I'm going to put 2 scoops of gatorade powder in her water for electrolites (and she likes the flavore so it helps). That normaly gets herGav hoe her 1gm ofbute as well.


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## KigerQueen

Well according to FIL she was better yesterday. She was willing to trot in hand (would not do that when she was ouchy). He lunged her both directions. she was 100% sound going left and only SLIGHTLY off going right. im going to talk to my vet about getting her privacox again. maybe only give it to her a day before her feet get done and for the next week after and see if that helps. I DO NOT want to bute her as bute is really bad for their kidneys and long term use is never good.


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## Yogiwick

If there's a correlation between "worse" and "farrier is out" I would be concerned.

I would only bute a horse (or previcox though I wouldn't use it for that sort of situation) for the farrier for arthritis issues or something major. Even if the horse has foot issues the farrier visit should help not hurt and I wouldn't expect any offness (let alone actual limping) unless the farrier made major changes and he would need a pretty darn good reason to do that. Are any changes being made?


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## KigerQueen

Nope. he did not change her angles, did not take her any shorter than normal and he trimmed her the same as he as for the past cuple of trimms where she was doing better. she was off for about a week and a half before he was out, but nothing major. 

checked on her again today as he said he checked on her and that she was only slightly off. Lunged her left and she was fine. lunged her at a slow trot right and she gimped 3 steps and fell flat on her side. soooo yeah... i flat out dont know what to do. i have asked about 5 farriers who come to the area and they all said pads and eggbar shoes.


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## KigerQueen

i posted the pics of her last trimm as well. we board our horses at the same place so when i told him she was lame he checked on her when he was out giving them extra food. to clarify he hasn't messed with her feet since she reset her shoes.


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## Horseychick87

She actually fell over? If that's so I think there is definitely more than just her hoof issues going on.

Negra is one of those cases that I'd love to see in Equus. But I'm a bit of a 'mystery lameness fan' as far as horse health magazines go, LOL.

I hope she's feeling better today. Give her a big pat for me.


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## Yogiwick

Uh did she trip and fall? Leg gave out? Random collapse? Keel over?

I'd be concerned about that..


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## KigerQueen

i am a bit concerned. she gimped and stumbled and fell. this may not be the most graceful horse out there but she normally does not fall on the front end. she has had her butt slide out from under her more than once, but not the front and has never gone flat on her side like that. vet will be out by end of june. possibly sooner as he will let me make payments. someone suggested trildren and said it helped her horse ALOT. her horse went from unrideable to rideable after the shot so we will see. 

im also going to get more privacox for her as it seamed to help when i had it before. i have also spent the past month looking for pasture board for her and not alot of success. i could spend my entire paycheck and take her 80 miles away. i could also keep her with a lady's horses 15 miles away from my house. issue is that there is not shelter and its irrigated so they will be standing in water for a cuple of days at a time.


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## Horseychick87

I'm wondering if she has a spinal issue or some kind of a pinched nerve. I remember you saying awhile back she stumbled sometimes, but falling flat is a whole new can of worms.

That would probably be a shock to her standing in water for that long 
I'm surprised more stables don't offer at least turnout lots, not grass pastures, but larger sand or clay areas where the horses could run around a bit during the day.


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## Yogiwick

What is tilden?

She could possibly of been so sore as to fall due to not wanting to step..?

Here is a link (not my channel) of my lamintic horse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QubyjWZ97Zs&feature=youtu.be
Note right before 10 seconds where he just about falls on his face due to not wanting to put weight on his feet.

Flat on her side seems odd though. As you can see in the above video if he had fallen it would've been onto his face.

I also find it very odd that she was OK in one direction and actually fell in the other. There shouldn't be THAT much of a difference!!

While I get wanting to check her (see the above video of walking the lame horse over packed sand and a little gravel as opposed to just soft sand lol) it sounds like she is being "checked" pretty regularly. I would definitely not be lunging her at all or asking her to trot. Don't check at this point..


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## KigerQueen

she kinda knew she was going down. she is smart, she would have gone on her face but she kinda turned mid fall. and i do suspect spinal issues. when a horse is run full speed then has it s front legs roped out from under it and is flipped over, they are going to have some issues.

Good news is that she is fine going right today. no gimpy and willing to trot that way. NOW going LEFT she is slightly gimpy! Lord this horse is going to put me in an asylum! she was a bit sassy today but not in a disrespectful way. so i take that as a good sign.
https://youtu.be/HQ5LC9NBktI
https://youtu.be/gnjOo4SnMI0

as for the Tildren i have this 
"ACTIONS
Tiludronic acid belongs to the bisphosphonate therapeutic class, a class of products with activity on bone metabolism. The main pharmacological property of TILDREN lnjection is to reduce bone resorption by inhibiting the activity of osteoclasts.

TILDREN lnjection acts as a regulator of bone remodelling in all situations involving excessive bone resorption. This regulator effect is not associated with a negative effect on bone formation or bone mineralisation at the recommended therapeutic dosage.

Areas of reduced bone density are a pathological change common to most cases of Navicular Disease and Bone Spavin and are due to inappropriate resorption of bone ("osteolysis"). In double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trials for both conditions, TILDREN treatment produced clear improvement as demonstrated by longterm reduction in lameness and progressive resumption of sporting activity.

In another double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial into the treatment of back pain associated with bony lesions of the vertebral column, TILDREN treatment induced a clear improvement in back flexibility, however further research is required to add this indication as a registered claim. Other studies have shown that TILDREN treatment can prevent the bone loss which usually occurs during inactivity in horses, as shown by measurements of bone density in spelling horses.

TILDREN lnjection has also demonstrated anti-arthritic properties in a model of poly-arthritis in rats. In vitro data identified inhibiting effects on the secretion of enzymes which degrade cartilage matrix."

its used for navicular in the UK (so i have heard). Im willing to give it a shot. ill have to ask my vet what his take on it is and if he can get it.


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## Yogiwick

Interesting. I've never heard of it (I googled "tilden" and didn't get anywhere lol)


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## KigerQueen

took me a second to find it thought google. you need to look it up with a keyword like horse or navicular.


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## Horseychick87

I've heard of the drug, but never bothered to look to deeply into it. Though that will change if I can get my grant application to go through and go back to school to get my Vet Tech degree.


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## SlideStop

There is a similar drug called Osphos out there which is much cheaper because it doesn't have to be imported from France. I've been looking into it for my horse. For $300 if it works it works, if not I won't be that upset!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

i was looking at it because someone in my area recommended it. if my vet can't get it for relatively cheap, ill look at osphos. That is if he ever texts me back -_-'


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## KigerQueen

well i have a vet appointment for the 17th. im going to get 4 xrays, side shots and the navicular skyline. he also said we will talk about the tildren shot when he comes and sees her. 

I haven't seen pony for more then a few min in the last cuple of days. its hitting the 100s and i cant handle it very well. Im going to see her tonight and spend some time with her. For the rest of the summer all pics of her are going to be slightly dark or during the golden hour XD!


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## Horseychick87

You'll have to post the results, I do like to see how horses progress during their treatments. ;-)

I haven't heard of the Osphos, sounds interesting.

Ugh, the heat is horrible. I'm already getting into my ' do more at night' phase and it's throwing off my sleep schedule.


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## KigerQueen

a cool night is going to be in the mid 80s. we finally had to bring the rabbits inside for the summer yesterday. they where laying on top of the frozen soda bottles. NOT looking forward to the 119+ summer... Its 80 something in my house and im dieing.


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## Horseychick87

Ugh, I can't stand the heat here. It doesn't get as hot, but it's far more humid and that is a killer when you can't even sweat to cool off.

Do the rabbits like their summer home?


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## KigerQueen

nope. ornery ******s hate just about everything it seems. they are currently stuck in small dog crates and NOT happy about being moved. and we are not thrilled as neither are fixed so they smell like bad garlic. I have been trying to rehome them for the past 3 years... thats worked out well -_-'


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## Horseychick87

LOL, of course not. Yeah I've noticed rabbits don't like being moved, but who does? LOL. I've never noticed he garlic smell with unaltered rabbits, but then all of the rabbits I've handled were meat rabbits and kept clean so their fur could be sold.


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## KigerQueen

they are clean. but they are both boys who like yo have ****ing contest since they are next to each other -_-'.

Anyway i went over to my friends house about 30 min away to see her pasture. it has two stalls with a small dry pen attached to it in the pasture as well. 3 mulberry trees for shade too. Im moving Negra there begining of next month. she will be a companion to my friends yearling (who is getting gelded next week). she is looking ALOT better today. she didn't want to trot and she trotted funny but not gimping. didn't push it. but she is standing alot more square so thats progress i guess.

Anyone know of something i can slather on her tail and her tail bag to stop mouthy colts from chewing on it?


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## KigerQueen

they are clean. but they are both boys who like to have ****ing contest since they are next to each other -_-'.

Anyway i went over to my friends house about 30 min away to see her pasture. it has two stalls with a small dry pen attached to it in the pasture as well. 3 mulberry trees for shade too. Im moving Negra there begining of next month. she will be a companion to my friends yearling (who is getting gelded next week). she is looking ALOT better today. she didn't want to trot and she trotted funny but not gimping. didn't push it. but she is standing alot more square so thats progress i guess.

Anyone know of something i can slather on her tail and her tail bag to stop mouthy colts from chewing on it?


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## KigerQueen

double post -_-'


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## Horseychick87

Ah, yeah the urine odor can get bad.

That's cool, I'm sure she'll enjoy her new place.

Hopefully she'll get back to normal soon.

Hmm, You could try a little Vaseline, but I don't think it would work and of course you don't want to use anything that would burn or irritate her skin either so that limits your options.


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## Saddlebag

Yogi, you typed in the name of the large car rental business. Try T I L D R E N.


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## Rain Shadow

KigerQueen said:


> Anyone know of something i can slather on her tail and her tail bag to stop mouthy colts from chewing on it?



Bitter Apple. The stuff you buy for puppies that chew. Works wonders. They also have a horse version, called No Chew but the puppy one I already had on hand

Amazon.com : Grannick's Bitter Apple for Dogs Spray Bottle, 16 Ounces : Grannick's : Pet Deterrent Sprays : Pet Supplies


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## Yogiwick

Saddlebag said:


> Yogi, you typed in the name of the large car rental business. Try T I L D R E N.


Yes I noticed that when Kiger responded 

I told you I'd never heard of it! :lol:


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## KigerQueen

well she was 100% better yesterday. was not planing on turning her out but she gave me that face. so i grabbed the halter that normally just holds her gate closed and put it on her and walked to the arena with her following me (she is good without a halter but there is grass munchies and she sometimes gets distracted to its easier to redirect with a halter on. safer anyway). she was following me and i started jogging to see what if she would pick up the pace and she did, without hesitation, no gimp and she seemed quite pleased with herself. turned her lose in the arena and put the old man out. 

My loving fiance grabbed the wrong senior last time and it has corn and molasses in it... sooo the old man is REALLY feeling it. that horse was bucking, farting and galloping all over snorting with his tail higher then my arabs. she took off bucking (i have never seen her actually buck like that before) and went about a lap with him. she was done after that but again no gimp so there is progress. 

Note to self maintain a good 7ft when asking old man to move. i clicked once to ask him to step forward and he pawed, bucked and kick as he took off. just a LITTLE too close to my personage for my liking 0.o'.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> they are clean. but they are both boys who like to have ****ing contest since they are next to each other -_-'.
> 
> Anyway i went over to my friends house about 30 min away to see her pasture. it has two stalls with a small dry pen attached to it in the pasture as well. 3 mulberry trees for shade too. Im moving Negra there begining of next month. she will be a companion to my friends yearling (who is getting gelded next week). she is looking ALOT better today. she didn't want to trot and she trotted funny but not gimping. didn't push it. but she is standing alot more square so thats progress i guess.
> 
> Anyone know of something i can slather on her tail and her tail bag to stop mouthy colts from chewing on it?


I'm so happy you're moving her. I think being able to walk in straight lines will do her a world of good. 
Be careful turning her out with a newly gelded horse, even one so young could still do the deed.
Will your BF's horse be moving too?


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## KigerQueen

no his horse is staying sadly. and i want to wait a cuple of weeks after he is gelded to be positive he cant get her. he is still small. i would say 11-12hh. but that dose not mean anything and my mare is a hussy. hopefully it all works out. im finishing up a boarding agreement. i dont like combining friends and money as i have has problems in the past but this is my option so im going for it but i want it in writing.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> no his horse is staying sadly. and i want to wait a cuple of weeks after he is gelded to be positive he cant get her. he is still small. i would say 11-12hh. but that dose not mean anything and my mare is a hussy. hopefully it all works out. im finishing up a boarding agreement. i dont like combining friends and money as i have has problems in the past but this is my option so im going for it but i want it in writing.


I think it's more like 30 days they can still be fertile.


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## Yogiwick

Yup 30 days.

Granted at that age you may be "safe" either way but not worth the risk. Wait the full 30.


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## natisha

Yogiwick said:


> Yup 30 days.
> 
> Granted at that age you may be "safe" either way but not worth the risk. Wait the full 30.


Or separate them.


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## Horseychick87

I actually just saw ads for both Osphos and Tildren in a few horse magz.

Hopefully Negra will like her new digs.


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## KigerQueen

the issue is i told bo that i'm moving. now they will be separated in the beginning as she will slowly be transitioned to grass. he turned a year on on the 5th so he is just barely a yarling and the size of a standard donkey. ill give her that info and they can get to know each other over the 30 days. maybe have her turn my mare out a night and bring her in during the day. 

i also got pics of her today. she is all shiny! BUT she has a small bald spot in her mane and its driving me nuts. it fell out in one large chunk and it makes me think her boyfriend had something to do with it (saw the chunk still hanging to the rest of her mane after it happened). she is not rubbing and she is not catching her mane on anything either.


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## Horseychick87

She is quite shiny. 

Sounds like a plan with getting her accustomed to her new home.
Will she be in another mare motel set up or will she have an enclosed barn?


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## KigerQueen

its a two stall mare motel. its not too common to find inclosed barns out here as its hot as heck.


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## KigerQueen

talked to my friend and we agreed on turnout rotation for a bit. Negra goes out at night and he is out during the day. My friend is not 100% positive he has fully dropped yet so if he has not he cant be gelded yet. i said to just keep them on opposite turnout schedule. the fence is high enough that it should stop any shenanigans. not worried about him getting her though a fence considering he is the size of a standard donkey and would fall off the fence before he was angled right (and she would have to seriously squat). that being said if i see any funny business that is concerning i will see if i could get her marbled or something.


things can never be easy -_-'


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## Horseychick87

LOL, I watched a 16 hand mare lay down so a Shetland stallion could reach her, the hussy! It was a cute foal though ;D

Yeah it would probably take some serious AC to keep an enclosed barn cool there.

Do you see fans in the mare motels out there? The few MM's I've seen here have had fans that run off of solar to keep a breeze going to repel the insects. But FL is well swamp land for the most part so...yeah, LOL.


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## Saddlebag

Jiger, if there's a mare in heat, depite what you may consider impossible obstacles, and if he wants to breed her he'll figure a way.


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## KigerQueen

some stalls do. my friend has one for her OTTB. he cant handle the heat well and 100+ has led to colic, excessive sweating and at one point his kidneys trying to shut down. so he spends the worst of the summer in prescott.

i dont bother as there is no outlet within 100ft of my mare's stall. i just hose her off once a day.

im aware of that. hence why they will be kept in separate pens. its 4 pole panels so kinda hard to coordinate though. so with them being in separate areas im not worried about her lowering herself so he could get her. ill evaluate how it is though. if he starts acting really stud ish ill put her in the stall in the corner (he cant get her there unless he jumps a fence 3 times his height to maybe get to her stall. remember he just turned a year old on the 5th). ill then put fencing up so that even IF he managed to aim himself, HE can't fit through the fencing and get her.


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## Horseychick87

Ah, I was wondering.

Oh, yeah, an outlet nearby doe help, LOL.

Yeah, I just couldn't believe the mare just laid down. Of course the fence was four board wood fencing. The owner has since put up horse safe mesh, that way nothing can ahem 'reach through'.

Sounds like you at least have options of where she can be placed if anything happens.


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## KigerQueen

yeah and if i suspect funny business i will get her luted. i was also thinking of useing fencing so nothing can reach though lol. but i dont THINK he will act studdish. he turned a year old this month and he is a small yearling. i dont think he even knows they where there IF they have even dropped yet.


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## KigerQueen

Im starting to dred this vet visit. im worried that he is going to find that she has gotten worst and that im at the point of putting her down. there are days i see that fast aproching and days where i see it far off. I looked up the ELOP farriers in az. all but one have moved out of state and i can hardly find any info on the one. Like i can afford it. after this the next 4-5 paychecks are going to go almost entierly to my vet.


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## Horseychick87

It's never easy knowing the end is approaching, but at least you can prepare yourself a bit, not that it helps anything.

Hopefully the vet won't find anything horribly wrong and maybe she's just feeling her age a bit.


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## Yogiwick

How about calling the ELPO farriers and ask if there are any other farriers in your area they would recommend..?


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## KigerQueen

there is only one elpo farrier in my area. i might call him. the issue is that its going to take me almost 2 months to pay my vet off, and i cant afford farrier ontop of it. FIL has been reading all he can get his hands on and her feet look fantastic. she has the best hooves out of all 40 horses at the barn. her underrun heals are almost normal (well the one would be if she stoped standing funny while eating but thats a habbit thing for her), she is standing normal and last time i asked her to set she set with her back legs camped out slightly and her front legs straight instead of all under her. she just smeals to fall apart at anything faster than a walk and that is driving me bonkers!

Also i have had to do thince since i noticed the new emots.

"Charlie..... Charrrllleeeee..... Charrrleeee... charlie-"
"What!?"
"... Were're on a bridge Charlie!"
inkunicorn::faceshot::blueunicorn:


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## greentree

She looks fantastic!


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## KigerQueen

**Update* X Rays!*

i am so happy i could just start crying. first thing the vet did was lunger one way then the other. with just a lead rope and halter she jumped into the trot, and when he changed hands with the rope she stoped, brought her front end up and changed directions. he said she was 100X better then the last time. she was slightly off but you had to look for it. and the xrays. the skyline was CLEAN! there is a TINY lil sopt on one where its SLIGHTLY darker but otherwise perfect. no holes that are abnormal. the side shot is exactly the same looking as the last one. this means all her lameness is soft tissue! he was extreamly happy about that and said we wont even bother with the osphos since "we wont get much out of it" (he is useing it on 7 other navic horses curently). he really wanted to know the name of the shoes to recamend to his other clients as well. 

he proscribed privocox 1/4 tab every other day unless she is haveing bad day, then give it daily for a bit. im so happy! who knows one day she could be sound enough for me to pony kids on her!!! point being she will be ok. we caught it earlieenough before any major bone damage was done.


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## Yogiwick

Good news, but why is she so gimpy? She had a good day and that's great but it's often NOT good when they are at their best when the vet comes.

Glad the x-rays are good, that is the most important part.

Regarding farriers I meant call the ones that USED to be in your area and say "I know you have moved but can you recommend someone in this area?"

It's also very common for farriers to travel, often quite a bit. I know several that go back and forth across the country.


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## KigerQueen

i could do that though again i really cant aford a specialist. as for her gimpy it could be from lack of blood flow and previous damaged caused. she has been haveing more good days then not the past cuple of weeks (she is on a upswing?). being in a stall cant be helping and the vet agreed. its also flipping hot outside and she is somehow packing on weight. we are going to continue what we are doing as it seams to be working. i see no reason to drain my bank acount further for someone who is going to do the same thing my farrier is doing. the vet is hard on farriers in my area (as in he dose not like them at all) and he was quite happy with her hooves. on her her left hoof (the tender one) the frog shed a bit again and is no longer makeing contact with the shoe/ so we are going to try and fix that a bit with next weeks trimming. i have some sillacone that i might bring for him to fill her hoof with. that way no crud is getting in there and we can fill in the gap where her frog is not touching.

Note: i am sick with some horrible head cold thing. i am haveing a hard time braining so there will be some intresting typos and spelling.


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## SlideStop

My vet recommend magic cushion hoof packing to me today. Apparently the ingredients draw the inflammation out of the hoof. It's pretty pricey, but it may be good to use on your mares "bad days". May be worth a try! I ordered some to use after I ride.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

its by hoof flex and i have always loved their products so thats a plus. its not too bad. $38 for 4lbs. he would not use all of it that fast. i just got a card in the mail for my b-day and i could use that to buy it. will it stay in the hoof or will it kinda fall out? if its not something i can just leave in as a hoof pad i might pass on it.


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## Yogiwick

Depending on the cause of the pain I will definitely vouch for Magic Cushion. Have used it plenty.

It is very sticky (gloves and baby oil), and it is expensive (you will use it faster then you may think) though it's not THAT bad.

Sounds like a good day.

Personally I would call the farriers anyway. If you do find someone they may be willing to mentor and help even if you can't have afford them and if/when you can then great.

I hope you feel better!


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## KigerQueen

Yogiwick said:


> Depending on the cause of the pain I will definitely vouch for Magic Cushion. Have used it plenty.
> 
> It is very sticky (gloves and baby oil), and it is expensive (you will use it faster then you may think) though it's not THAT bad.
> 
> Sounds like a good day.
> 
> Personally I would call the farriers anyway. If you do find someone they may be willing to mentor and help even if you can't have afford them and if/when you can then great.
> 
> I hope you feel better!



Thank you  working in a fish bowl (grooming salon) when one person gets sick we all do. but my fever broke and i already feel better.
I like the idea of calling and the mentoring aspect. now the magic cushion, would it stay for the mostpart under the shoe? or could i pack the foot with it (with shoe on) then put sillicone over the holes and lock it in?


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## SlideStop

KigerQueen said:


> Thank you  working in a fish bowl (grooming salon) when one person gets sick we all do. but my fever broke and i already feel better.
> I like the idea of calling and the mentoring aspect. now the magic cushion, would it stay for the mostpart under the shoe? or could i pack the foot with it (with shoe on) then put sillicone over the holes and lock it in?



I think it says you can put it under put it under pads, silicone I'm not sure about though. 

Your supposed to pack it into the shoe. I hear it stays in well without wrapping (pack with shavings after) but if I were you I'd wrap it with some vet wrap or duct tape. I want to get my money's worth :wink:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Yogiwick

Hard to say as I'm not familiar with the shoes you are using (though I am tempted to try them myself!). I have used it on conventionally shod horses and barefoot horses. The shoes helped hold it in. You basically pack the foot then wrap (vetwrap you can put a gauze pad underneath to hold it together, I don't remember exactly the way I've done it) with the shoe you could probably get away with not wrapping (though I would anyways). I guess I'm a little confused by what you meant for "locking it in" with the silicone and holes.

It's like a soft goopy putty (and sticky lol though it won't hold itself on just with stickiness)

I guess a visual of the bottom of the hoof with shoe would help.

My visual is that it would look pretty similar to how this foot would look before being picked out when packed with dirt/mud. Then just vetwrap to hold it in place:


I was going to say I'm sure I don't need to describe that but maybe I do to you strange desert dwellers?:lol:


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## Horseychick87

Glad to hear she's doing so well and won't need the Osphos.

Ugh, head colds suck! I'm working on my third straight upper respiratory infection. Working with kids is going to be the death of me...literally one of them is going to give me a deadly virus...or the plague, possibly rabies. ;-)

I don't know that you can lock/ seal in the Magic Cushion with silicon, but I've seen vetrap and gauze used, even hoof boots.


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## KigerQueen

what im asking is that is i packed it into her hooves would it stay through out the trimm cycle? she is getting gunk stuck in her shoes and its becomeing a problem. i was kinda thinking of packing it in there and siliconeing over the two holes in the shoe to make it stay in like it was under a pad.

*note the pics are not of my pony*


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## Yogiwick

Ah got it. I think it would stay for a decent amount of time but I would want to reapply it regularly (don't actually know I guess but I think it looses effectiveness). I'd probably just vet wrap and redo it. Keeps other stuff out too!

I would worry about managing to mess up her foot with trying to fill those holes though I suppose your FIL could help with that but I wouldn't recommend shutting it off for a whole trim cycle.


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## KigerQueen

the issue i am haveing is she is getting crap stuck in it and its causing thrus. im sokeing her hooves in viniger at least once a week because i cant get it all out with a pick. kinda why i want to pack it with something. i know some horses where pads and that locks stuff in, at least this stuff is better then nothing. it may lose effectiveness but it will still keep bacteria and manure out. she is also a pee spot stander.


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## Horseychick87

Can you fit a pad under the shoes? I'd try the pad first if you can.

If not you might have to find a way to close the holes but still be able to remove the packing and let the sole 'breath'.


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## KigerQueen

her sole dose not breeth now and putting on a pad would defeat the purpose of the shoe unless i put a thin leather pad underneeth. her hooved are always cacked with manure. i can cklean them put her away and the next day its just as bad. it was like this even when she didnt have shoes on. now its 10x worst. i was looking at useing a poor in pad but this looks like this stuff might work better if i could get it to stay in.it wont be hard to pull the silicone off the shoe ethier.


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## Horseychick87

You could always try it once and see how it works. If it doesn't then maybe a pour in pad would be an option.

I know one of the local (and highly recommended farriers) likes to see horses with dirt packed into the hoof, he says it gives them natural support like they would have in the wild. 
But if it's got manure and urine in it, then nope.

I'd go ahead and try and see how it works.


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## greentree

Equi pak makes a padding that is infused with copper sulfate to help with thrush. It is an epoxy, and you have to have the gun to apply it, but you slap a piece of plastic over it while it is wet, and then peel the plastic off, and it stays.


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## Yogiwick

Using it to close up the shoe seems like a waste of money imo. Agree with greentree. Let the farrier deal with it.


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## KigerQueen

he has never had a reason to use any typeof padding soo im in charge or telling him while i hand it to him lol. he has noticed the issue with crud getting stuck in the hoof and if there is no place for crud to pack in then i dont have to worry about it. if she gets thrus that would not help her gimpyness ethier.

inregards to her gimpy ness she looked fine lastnight and was a bit playfull and lovey for the first time in weeks so thats a good sign.


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## Yogiwick

Doesn't need to be padding persay just filling (though obviously you don't want a negative effect on her feet. Priorities!)


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## KigerQueen

the magic cushin might work considering manure can stay in there dispite my best efforts. at least in the places i need it to. i want to try it anyway. there is a gimpy old man who could use it as well.


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## evilamc

Try packing each night or every other night with magic cushion. Get a bucket and fill it with bedding, pack the magic cushion into her foot, then put her foot down hard into bedding. That will help pack it into the shoe and help it last all day, that stuff works wonders.


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## Saddlebag

The products that work best are applied before the shoe is applied then the gaps around the frog are sealed to prevent material getting in under the pad.


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## KigerQueen

evilmac, i wont need to use bedding (and im out anyway). if you look at the past pics she has two 2 inch by 1/2 inch openings in the shoe that lead to the hoof. ill se if we could pack the hoof first. i might have to be there for that. i might have to wait untill next cycle since i cant order it yet and she is getting trimmed next week.


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## Yogiwick

I definitely think it would be a good product for you, just not sure about the "side use". Worth a try. If she's standing in puddles it will still get in though.


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## evilamc

KigerQueen said:


> evilmac, i wont need to use bedding (and im out anyway). if you look at the past pics she has two 2 inch by 1/2 inch openings in the shoe that lead to the hoof. ill se if we could pack the hoof first. i might have to be there for that. i might have to wait untill next cycle since i cant order it yet and she is getting trimmed next week.


Putting the foot down in the bedding just really helps pack it in there and then kind of gives an extra layer too between the mud. Even with your openings, you wont get it packed as tightly in there as you would if you made her bare weight on the foot in a bucket of bedding. That will get it super squeezed in there


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## KigerQueen

well i have not goten the magic pack stuff yet. hopeing to pay the vet back tomorrow and then ill have $1 to my name untill friday. ill be moveing her sunday evening/monday around noon. 

anyway i got pics from her yesterday. she seamed kinda blaugh so i gave her some privacox lastnight as well.


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## KigerQueen

so i got vid of her today. i asked her to move a lil to see how she moved faster than a trott. she was SLIGHTLY off at the trott going right but otherwise she was good. asked for a bit of a lope to see how she moved. ill just stick with walking and trotting her for the next cuple of months befor asking her to lope again.
https://youtu.be/l-GFwds7FjM


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## SlideStop

Looks good! Do you have any before videos?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horseychick87

She looked good in the video, more comfortable.


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## KigerQueen

i have one from when this first started and before i got more privacox. that stuff is seriously working for her.

When this all stated. nov 4 2014
https://youtu.be/zZe3O4Fxjoo


seecond trimm with with navicular and privacox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PySIvmDm3E8


With ground controle shoes for the first time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBcLcd97w4A


This was in may after i ran out of privacox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poxyw04GwCA

Then yesterday after a cuple of weeks with privacox
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-GFwds7FjM


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## KigerQueen

im starting to wonder if her tenderness about going from haveing shoes to no shoes is where this all started/ first warning signs


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## Yogiwick

Have you blocked that LF?


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## KigerQueen

no. i have not done any blocking. it cost more then the xrays so its on the list but high up on it. i would LIKE to have it done but i just got my hours cut again so i wont be affording it for a while.


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## Yogiwick

I hear that. I'm glad you have done what you have done but I think there's more going on in that LF.

May just be an issue due to other issues but the LF is pretty consistent. Also interesting it's worse to the right..


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## KigerQueen

i think she is makeing it worst. she will stand like this for hours while she is picking though crap. she has always done this.


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## Yogiwick

Not to scare you but something like a suspensory issue could represent like this. Obviously it's not super serious (if it's a tendon issue) as she would be in even worse shape, but I just feel like there's more going on (and no doesn't seem like she's helping her case!)


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## SlideStop

I watched the videos, what an amazing transformation! 

Just one thing... Personally, I go easy on the free lunging. Every time I do it and my mate takes off like a bat out of hell I cringe. Then of course there is the slamming on the breaks in every corner. I really try to limit the shinanagins if I can help it. All that pounding can't be good for the feeties! If I free lunge my mare I put her on the line first so she can get the sillies out where I can control her, then I let her go. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

I only free lunge her. She lunges the same on line as off. I see what you are saying but even if she has had 2 weeks stall rest she won't just spazz out unless I seriusly go after her. I normaly just turn her loose and she trotts about half way out. Rolls and then pics through the dirt looking for any hay bits she can find. How could I tell if its a tendon issue? I check her legs daily and have never seen swelling or any heat. My fil wants to pay for xrays in 6 months (vet said he would not xray for at least a year if at all but fil wants to see how the foot is doing. I don't care ifhe wants to pay for it lol. But at that time I can get her blocked.


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## Yogiwick

I think any sort of lunging period is a concern esp since you seem to do it (somewhat) regularly, I think that's what SlideStop is trying to say (though obviously "shenanigans" are worse) and is what I think either way.

I am dealing with a horse with a mild suspensory injury. No heat or swelling, just started off as a mild lameness. Diagnosis was done with blocks (to pinpoint suspensory) then ultrasound.

Like I said you would know if it was severe which is good but something subtle may be hiding. This horse was also noticeably more lame on a circle when the lame leg was on the outside (the red flag I'm seeing here) (I asked the vet and I guess the theory is since the suspensory branches it may put more stress). This isn't usually the case unless it's a foot issue (and then not always). Note in the first video how pronounced that is.

Didn't you just get follow up x-rays?

I would do blocks on that sore leg. It should be pretty simple as the known issues are all in the hoof so block the hoof and you'll know immediately if there's something else going on or not. You probably won't need to go higher unless there's another issue.


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## KigerQueen

i have not lunged her in at least 2 months. and its not serius lunging. if the horse is compleatly sound at a walk and only slowly plots around its kinda hard to tell where they are at sound wise. i moved her around a bit to see where she was at and she she had not canterd for a long time so i wanted to see where she was at on that. she is getting moved monday so i will only see her a cuple of times a week but she will be out o pasture. 

and yes i did just have fallow up xrays. i am still paying the vet off 3 weeks later. but i should have that payed off in a cuple of days. i will talk to him about blocking that leg sooner than later but i need to pay board first.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> I only free lunge her. She lunges the same on line as off. I see what you are saying but even if she has had 2 weeks stall rest she won't just spazz out unless I seriusly go after her. I normaly just turn her loose and she trotts about half way out. Rolls and then pics through the dirt looking for any hay bits she can find. How could I tell if its a tendon issue? I check her legs daily and have never seen swelling or any heat. My fil wants to pay for xrays in 6 months (vet said he would not xray for at least a year if at all but fil wants to see how the foot is doing. I don't care ifhe wants to pay for it lol. But at that time I can get her blocked.


Why would the vet refuse to X-ray YOUR horse?

Has any other vet seen those X-rays?


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## KigerQueen

he did not refuse xrays at all. he was saying if i where him he would not do it for at least a year unless she gets worst. he is really pleased with her progress. and she has no bone dammage so he feels we have stopped any damage on that front. he is all about saveing people money where he can (and he only charged me half the price of privacox since he knows im hard on cash). i dont want to deal with the other local vet as she is all for old cowboy ways of healing (that killed my friends horse star i might add who survived 13 years of raceing without injury). so not dealing with her. and any vet from chaparell charges an arm and a leg. and i have watched them fumble badly and that resulted in my friend's horse being put down within 24 hours of the vet's fumble. sooo the ONLY other vet i would let near my vet is the vets from durango and my friend uses them. so if something happens they would be called out for her and they already know me so that works.


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## KigerQueen

moveing day! i get to get her in a two horse... this will be fun. im going to have to wrap her in bubble wrap. she scrambles in trailers and more so in two horse trailers (even when they are NOT moveing). im thinking ill give her privacox before we leave so she wont be as sore when we get there (she will be with how she acts in a trailer). i get to hit the feed store today (that in itself makes my day. i love feed stores like teenagers love the mall) and get her some senior to bring with her. Im thinking of putting her in pen connected to the stalls so she can meet the colt without anyone getting hurt (colt is pushy, and she dose not like pushy). ill see if i can let her out for a cuple of hours on wendsday to graze. she has not been on pasture in a long time so i cant just set her loose. she has an iron stomech and quickly changing foods has never caused her issues but i really dont want to play that game with how her feet are.


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## Yogiwick

I would open up the 2 horse as much as possible and also would consider a light sedative. Good luck!

I don't think Previcox works the same way.. it takes awhile to take effect, more of a buildup. I would give her some banamine maybe.


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## KigerQueen

Fiance is going to take out the center devider and let her ride backwards if she wants to. see if that helps. im giveing the privacox before hand to help with the inflamation. she gets it every other day but she got it llast night so it should dubble up a bit. she rides better in a stock trailer, wish i had one. where o board people cant get thier horses in the trailer (spent 3 hours last thursday trying to help a fridn get her mare in. nearly passed out from heat stroke.). mine hops right in. then acts stupid... i love my mare. she is special.


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## Yogiwick

It's almost easier when they're hard to load but ride well!!

I get why you are giving the Previcox (and know she's on it regularly) I'm just not sure it's the first choice for the situation.

Hopefully things go well!


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## KigerQueen

my fiance removed the trailor devider and was perfect! she was amazing in the trailor. 

she dose not like the over excited colt. he was running back and forth along the fencline and she got tired of him. he kicked at him and pinned her ears. she them walked herself back to her stall and closed the gate behind her lol. most horses let them selves out. she locks her self in. so she will be staying in the dirt penn/stall for a cuple of weeks. that gives them time to get used to echother. and mr exuberent time to get over seeing a horse for the first time in 7-6 months. we shall see. if she cant get over herself then we are back to square one.


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## Yogiwick

So funny. Honestly I wouldn't worry about it. I would do the same...

Sad the foal as been on his own though, I didn't realize that. I'm sure that's part of his poor behavior.


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## KigerQueen

he was not bad per say. he was just excited and was running around like a fool. slipped and fell in the mud, got up and continued. its ms cranky pants im worried about. i will not rist her kicking a horse half her size (the colt is a yearling and he is the size of a pony. he is more like 12hh). and since we still have two weeks untill his swimmers should be gone they can get used to each other with a fence keeping kicks at bay. ill see if i can get vid of her today when i go down. i have to dropp her meds off since i forgot them yesterday -_-'


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## natisha

Can you take the colt out of her sight for a few minutes? That may make her miss him.


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## KigerQueen

no and sadly she dose not "miss" horses. she honestly only likes and tolorates 1 horse and thats my fiance's gelding and she could still care less. she only wants food. she could be in isolation her entier life and be happy as long as there is plenty of food lol. also this colt is hardly halter broke and i dont feel like playing the "lets not run Kiger over" game with a colt thats not mine. now my fiance can because he wants to take him home (and bring him back when he is full grown and no longer cute lol), but im out.


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## KigerQueen

so i have some vids from today. one is when i first let her out of her stall. then her being less of a Be Witch to the colt.

https://youtu.be/yFmb_Pcs6Co

Her being nice to Mojo JoJo
https://youtu.be/lxwV58wbTG0


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## natisha

She already looks happier.


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## Horseychick87

Yup, she does look happier, and she's moving well.

LOL Mojo JoJo, I like that name. He's a cutie too.


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## KigerQueen

oh he is adorable. he is tiny for a yearling though. his mother is a grade qh and his sire is a twh. hopefully they can get along and all ponys will be happy.


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## greentree

Looks like a lovely place! I really like that barrel feeder, could you possibly measure the cutout opening for me? Thanks!


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## KigerQueen

yes i can. i might make it down there today. I dont bother feeding her in the barrel though. she just throws it out of the feeder.


----------



## BreezylBeezyl

Oh my gosh I watched some of the videos, Negra has the most _adorable _canter. Just super cute. I don't know what it is about it, but I love it! Must be the short stride.


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## KigerQueen

Thank you! its more of a bunny hop. she kinda hops around like a deer. that sadly is a tell tail sign of sacroiliac injury (hunters bump) that has resulted in a roteted pelvis. in some of the pics you can see her spin dips infront of the hunters bump. that could be causing a kissing spine like issue. once she is sound this issue might still prevent me from riding her. maybe ill have her trained to pull a cart .

Cause And Effect Of Hunter's Bump In The Horse

If you want to really see her spazz i have a vid from a cuple of years ago before she has navicular issues.
https://youtu.be/ACora1eWTE4


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## BreezylBeezyl

That's too bad then, I'm sorry. She does remind me a lot of a deer! The driving/cart idea is a good one.


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## KigerQueen

honestly im suprized she dose not have worst issues. she was used for horse tripping in her past so that messes them up.


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## dkb811

KigerQueen said:


> honestly im suprized she dose not have worst issues. she was used for horse tripping in her past so that messes them up.


That's so sad!!


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## KigerQueen

So between my horse and my cat i will never have money. my cat had a stroke yesterday (the same one who whent blind begginging of may) and was walking like a drunken salior. vet viset, blood work and anti-inflamitory shot and anti-biotic shot. blood work is normal and she is almost 100% better today (about 90%). vet is stumped. seriously... I just cant win -_-'...

Well im asuming Negra is behaving herself at my friend's as i have not goten any phone calls lol. ill be going down to see her on monday since i have the day off. maybe let her out in the small yard to graze.


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## Horseychick87

So sorry to hear about your cat. It's never easily, emotionally or financially.

At least my latest financial troubles are not pet related, just well pump related, but that means no cross country lessons for me. 

LOL, Negra is still getting the lay of the land, she may decide she likes it and behaves or decide she likes it but wants to have some fun. ;-)


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## KigerQueen

well kitty is fine. 3rd round of blood work since feb and it was normal. she may have pulled something in her front leg. she has been grumpy so i gave her some kitty pain killers and she gets REALLY sweet and cute... soo yeah...

As for pony going down to see her today. my friend has been leaving her in the turnout for area with her stall open at night. im fine with that as her and the colt ignore each other. hopefully next week we can introduce them without a wall. ill keep my mare on a lead just in case she has a "moment". she may have plastic shoes on but she is bigger then the lil colt.


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## KigerQueen

Further conformation that i will NOT be useing the ELPO shoer that most of the barn uses. first thing he did when a horse he was working on was diagnosed with navicular was jack up the heals. and there are bony changes. he dose all but maybe 7 horses where i board and all the horses he works on have horrid feet. he has been working on this horse for almost 2 years and the horse had no navicular issues when she got the horse...


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## Horseychick87

LOL, it's so funny when they get a tiny 'buzz' going and get all friendly and extra cuddly.

If he's messing up the horses I'd take pictures and report him to his 'association' and see what they might do. I hate watching people butcher a horses feet because they 'think' they know what they're doing, but really don't.

I'm lucky I have a farrier in my area that everyone loves, not only because he does great work but because he's friendly, pretty easy to get ahold of, and is fair in his prices. he's not the cheapest around, but I'm willing to pay more for his good work.


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## KigerQueen

i wish i could but i could no longer find him on elpos shoers list so idk. its honestly sickening. thata why my fil started working on his own horses. they got tired of farriers messing up his horses hooves including their morgan with a club foot. my FIL has never made a horse lame from his trimming/shoeing.


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## Horseychick87

Hmm, maybe someone else has already reported him and he's still using the ELPO designation without actually being a member?

I really do wish the US had required courses/ schooling like the UK does for farriers/ trimmers. One of my biggest fears is that Jeff the farrier will retire before I get a horse and I'll have to find someone else.


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## KigerQueen

So my mare was a witch with a capital B today! holy crap i though i was going to kill her! She is always goof for haveing her hoves done but today... she kept takeing her feet away, jumping to the side and she kicked me onece kicked at me 2 times and got my father in law at LEASE twice with a cuple of good kicks. she gets like this when ever she is turned out for more than a day and its was showing today. she did ern a good kick from me after kicking me. I had to run the snot out of her in hopes that she would figure it out. 

On that note shes not lame anymore lol. 100% no gimp, and she was moveing like a normal horse. we have an issue with her back hooves though. she keeps standing on her toes. we took more toe off of her to help corect that and it somewhat worked. because she is a toe dragger she slid the ground controle shoes back about 1/2 an inch. nearly ripped the nails through the shoe. her fronts are fantastic though. this will be the 5th reset on the same pair. might get new ones in november at this rate. 

im looking to see if i can make clips for the ground controle shoes or get the easy walkers for her back hooves because they have clipps. i know why she is dragging her toes but i can only ford to fix one problem with her at a time. and i have to save my money up since ill be loseing my job in december. hopefully i can get it back once im back from vacation (the vacation that tickets where baught for in april of 2014. And i informed my boss of this in my first interview and reminded her and managment of every 2 months and then suddenly they where like "oh you can't go its during block out dates". yeah sorry still going my ticket cost more than i will make in a year, non-refundable and i didnt pay for it.)

I have a crappy vid of her. got a new cell and trying to switch hands with it and lunge a illbehaving horse at the same time dose not work well.


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## Horseychick87

Oh boy, sounds like she was feeling her oats! I hope your FIL is alright, you too as well. 

Wow, 5 resets! That's great. How many resets did you get out of steel shoes? My poor trainer had to use aluminum shoes on one of her hunters and she only got one reset on the fronts. It drove her up the wall, but she just couldn't use steel shoes on that horse.

I recently have been looking at these: https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_search_results.html?gas=easyshoe

It's a shame about the toe dragging, it can really mess up their toes and shoes. Hopefully you'll be able to get some clips onto the shoes.


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## KigerQueen

well no clipps but gc said i could have my fil put a nail at the toe to act as a clip. so its worth a shot. as for her behavior... when she is turned out she gets like this. she has not even been turned out on grass yet, just in a dirt pen with very limited grass time. she is just being a brat and im NOT outting up with that crap. delt with that type of behavior when i got her and i dont want to again with the same horse -_-'. that being said im going to go dow to harass her tomorrow. i left her tail down and i cant leave it down for too long. it drags 2inch on the ground now and it needs to stay up. 

also here is the headach inducing vid i promised. i was trying to hold the phone, record and lunge in a small space at one time.. yeah. also this was her after we just pulled her shoes. im hopeing to get better vid tomorrow but i wont hold my breath on that one lol.
https://youtu.be/pBgsC8k5UBA


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## Yogiwick

I'd be curious to see a video of her trotting out in a straight line.

And while I am VERY glad to see she's feeling better I wouldn't consider her "cured".


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## KigerQueen

ill try to get that today though i wont count on that. dont have anyone to hold the camera and dont have the space to move her at the moment. today is the first day she will be turned out with the colt and we get to supervise that. might get some vid but it will mostly be of her stuffing her face and teling to colt to **** off.


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## Smilie

Yogiwick said:


> I'd be curious to see a video of her trotting out in a straight line.
> 
> And while I am VERY glad to see she's feeling better I wouldn't consider her "cured".




Agree that she does not look like a totally sound horse to me, in her movement
I am glad that you got her some turn out now, as, without going back to the beginning, was she not also stalled most of the time?


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## KigerQueen

she was boarded where my fiance boards his horses. and az horse boarding 90% of the time dose not have turn out. so she was stalled 24/7 in a 30X14 stall. i would get her out as much as i could put that was not enough. im working on uploading a couple of vids i took of her today.


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## KigerQueen

here they are. first one is me moveing her around a bit after she was out and moveing a bout for a bit. the one after that was her being a brad about being caught.


Ignore my less than fabulous fashion statment. thats the style of I-just-got-off-of-work and Its-1,000-Dagrees-out mashed together.
https://youtu.be/-GSvSjRqw5Q


https://youtu.be/MbjBLd97ONs


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## Phura

I have a gelding with navicular in front and back. I have spent the last yr trying to get him comfortable. While his confirmation is good, that of his hooves is not. Navicular can mean a lot of things and can affect more than bone. In mine's case, he has it in the bone, but he also had a bad angle that needed to be corrected. So sadly he will have to remain in a wedge. We tried many different corrective shoeing options but he has done best in the wedge with pads providing frog support. He also gets equioxx daily for pain to keep inflammation down. We are avoiding bute due to the long term side affects creating gastroinestinal issues or kidney issues.

I understand that first you must use corrective shoeing to address the root of the issue. Make sure you have a solid, experienced farrier. Then compliment with other treatments. Other options include injections into navicular bursa. I shy away from this until last resort as it seems to be a limited option which can degrade the area over time. New to the market are tildren and osphos which are designed to treat navicular in the bone itself. They don't heal current lesions but are designed to prevent future ones. The results have been encouraging. Tildren is more expensive and is administered via IV and Osphos is intramuscular and significantly cheaper. I'm considering Osphos for my boy as a next step if needed. TheHorse.com has some great articles on the subject and even did a podcast on the topic which was informative. You can google tildren and osphos and read about the new drugs.


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## Phura

Horseychick87 said:


> Oh boy, sounds like she was feeling her oats! I hope your FIL is alright, you too as well.
> 
> Wow, 5 resets! That's great. How many resets did you get out of steel shoes? My poor trainer had to use aluminum shoes on one of her hunters and she only got one reset on the fronts. It drove her up the wall, but she just couldn't use steel shoes on that horse.
> 
> I recently have been looking at these: https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_search_results.html?gas=easyshoe
> 
> It's a shame about the toe dragging, it can really mess up their toes and shoes. Hopefully you'll be able to get some clips onto the shoes.


I used the easyshoe for awhile on my boy in the back. I used both the nail/glue option and the glue only option. I liked them both however, it is tricky in muddy conditions. They didn't last long. Especially when I tried to get a wedge in there. My farrier tried modifying the shoe itself a couple ways to simulate a wedge and that helped a bit but wasn't enough for what we needed. The glue seemed to work better. But again if you have muddy conditions, you will go through them quickly. That aside, I liked them.

My local feed store also mentioned the epona shoe which her navicular guy did well in as recommended by her vet. Another one was happy feet. Though I never personally tried either of those due to our muddy conditions and need for a wedge. We were able to find alternative options that were better for my guy.


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## KigerQueen

i wont wedge her as the few horses i have know that had/where wedged did not last longer than 2 years. considering how bad she was and now good she is doing im going to continue what we are doing. 

When this all first started
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZe3O4Fxjoo

and now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GSvSjRqw5Q


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## Horseychick87

Phura said:


> I used the easyshoe for awhile on my boy in the back. I used both the nail/glue option and the glue only option. I liked them both however, it is tricky in muddy conditions. They didn't last long. Especially when I tried to get a wedge in there. My farrier tried modifying the shoe itself a couple ways to simulate a wedge and that helped a bit but wasn't enough for what we needed. The glue seemed to work better. But again if you have muddy conditions, you will go through them quickly. That aside, I liked them.
> 
> My local feed store also mentioned the epona shoe which her navicular guy did well in as recommended by her vet. Another one was happy feet. Though I never personally tried either of those due to our muddy conditions and need for a wedge. We were able to find alternative options that were better for my guy.


Good to know how they do in mud, being in FL I get lots of mud year round. Luckily so far none of the horses I've taken care of have had any kind of navicular issues. So the shoes would be for those that needed something because they can't go barefoot for whatever reasons. I do wonder how they would hold up during a show since I do hunters, jumpers, and eventing mainly.


Kiger, Negra is looking good, she seems to like her new home. I think that she has shown a decent amount of improvement. She may however stay a bit 'short/ tight' in her stride due to her past abuse that's led to her issues. (Anyone who trips horses for 'sport' should be tripped themselves and see how they like having their legs roped out from under them. IMO.)


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## KigerQueen

she has not seamed to have issues with mud. they have some good grip to them. hopefully her short stridedness will go away with her being able to be on pasture full time. she is still locked in the dirt pen untill we are 100% confident in their behavior. she did kick him once yesterday but it was a quick pop and he seamed to get the hint. just dont want her to hurt him.


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## Horseychick87

You're using the Ground Control shoes, right? I'd like to get my hands on a pair of each type of shoe I've been looking at just to see what they're like, but I'm not buying shoes that I don't need yet, LOL.

The turnout will do her a lot of good being able to stretch her muscles when she feels the need to.


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## KigerQueen

the ground controle shoes are the cheepest and last longer from what i hear. they are $9.50 each i payed $25 for a pair and shipping.


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## Horseychick87

Ah, okay. That's not a bad price at all.


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## KigerQueen

AND they come in purdy colors!!! i want the blue or pink ones next time!!! (not even ashamed of my "moment")


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## Horseychick87

My stable colors are black and red, I could mix and match the colors if they have red!


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## hardiesjusticedream

KigerQueen said:


> the sacred hoof is her back left. i mostly have pics of that because her fronts have been a non issue until now. i was using it as a reference as how we want the hoof to look more like, less toe but not crazy heal.
> 
> As for the shoed pics that was after fil had broke his leg so she went about 9 weeks without a trim, that was after the trim and her getting shoes on.
> 
> as for the pics of her frog, that is all before her shed. when i mean she has no frog i mean its a concave space where it should be. Freaked my farrier out and still dose at times when he is trimming.
> 
> HEr feet in the pics where from her being in her stall and a grass turnout. no rocks, no hard ground. she will still chip above the sole and has even bled at one point. with shoes that dose not happen and her feet maintain their shape. bear they just fall apart.
> 
> I know boots over the shoes sounds weird but its to add support and temp padding. if i just add a pad/wedg all i see is it turning into a nasty bacteria playground. she love her pee spot. when she had a 12x12 stall that was bone dry with a 12X20 run, she would stand in her pee spot in the run. she has a thing about wet and its doing horrible things to her feet. along with the fact she turns her stall into a bog within a week it dose not help. Im worried about her peeing in the boots or getting wet in there because her feet are in enough trouble, i dont need to add to the growing list.
> 
> the goal is to have her frog hit the ground with the shoe. they dont mess with her frog as there is normally nothing to mess with. he tries to clean it up sometimes but the entire thing just flakes off.
> 
> If you think his shoeing is bad you'd cry if you saw the other farriers around here. Horses are almost always lame, their shoes horrid. one of the "trimmers" started trimming so much sole off the horse is lame for about 2 weeks after the trim and is blowing an abscess (same farrier caused abscess in 12 of the horses i know he trims. Cant be a coincidence considering half are boarded elsewhere). FIL is the only farrier in the area who can say they did not lame a horse. If i could trust another farrier i would but i have been there done that and dont want to ride that bronc again.
> 
> here are some pics i have of her fronts.


First I am so so sorry about your baby having navicular, I had one that had it too, it is a sad thing. I understand what you are thinking about boots over the shod horse giving her some cushion for comfort, you can get pads put under the shoe, to give her cushioning to protect the frog, and bottom of the foot, I know endurance riders do this, and we did it with our old faithful boy, it helped him alot, ask your vet about this, hopefully you have a good farrier around to help her out, that can look at her xrays and know what to do, and have him work with your vet on angles etc, good luck with your baby


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## KigerQueen

my farrier and i have it under controle. she is 100% better and happy with gorund controle shoe.


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## KigerQueen

I want to cry right now. Saw her since i could not fot the last 2 weeks. She looks like hell. She lost quite a bit of weight. I can see her spine and her ribs. She is coated an i thick layor of dried sweat and is crusty from it. She compleatly bleached out in a bad way. Turned her out and she moves beautifuly. I cant move her back because she wont stay sound if i do. But i cant find pasture board under 250 and within 45 min of me. I feel lost right now. Damed if i do dammed if i dont.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> I want to cry right now. Saw her since i could not fot the last 2 weeks. She looks like hell. She lost quite a bit of weight. I can see her spine and her ribs. She is coated an i thick layor of dried sweat and is crusty from it. She compleatly bleached out in a bad way. Turned her out and she moves beautifuly. I cant move her back because she wont stay sound if i do. But i cant find pasture board under 250 and within 45 min of me. I feel lost right now. Damed if i do dammed if i dont.


Why would that be happening? Is she not getting fed? Is she stuck in blazing heat?
Why hasn't your friend told you of this weight loss?


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## KigerQueen

I dont know if they have been feeding her sadly. And its hot and humid where she is. 30% humidity and 105f heat. She has two fully shaded stalls she can go into whenever she wants but my mare is not the brightest. Ill post pics later and a vid. As for why she did not tell me. I have no idea and im extreamly upset. I dont like keeping horses at friends because of things like this tend to happen.


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## egrogan

What can you do to up your budget or expand the distance away from your house? I can't imagine finding board for $250, particularly not with a horse that requires special care. Even if it means you see her less, can you expand your geographic search so that you can get her into a full-care place where dramatic weight loss over a 2-week period isn't missed? 

I have an easy keeper so it's hard for me to imagine so much decline in such a short period, but I feel terribly sorry for your mare if she's had such a tough go of it. The heat and humidity can be so hard on animals.

It really sounds like this is a horse that, if not in your backyard for daily care, needs a high-quality facility that is providing really individualized care.


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## ksorensen

Poor thing! I hope he heals up!


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## KigerQueen

She dose not need special care. She needs special shoes and meds every other day that can be ploped in supliments. And she is an 45min druve from my house as it is. I would have to go over an hour away to find what i would like for her. That being said i get 14mpg so that would be $25 in gas just v to see her a cuple of times a month. I dont like her being far because of things like this happening. And most actual pasture boarding isvover 1hour and 45 away from me. As for budget i have to see. My hours are so sparatic Thats one month i could afford 300 in board and next im happy to afford 130. Im on the hunt though. Im also trying to find a place to move my dh and fils 4 horses too.


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## KigerQueen

Here is a vid of her. She is moving very well. They said she has turned her nose up to grass hay because she wants to graze. Well ill give it another week. They are now giveing her alfalfavin the am with grass hay and upping her senior. If i see no improvement i will move her.

Anyway here is the vid.
https://youtu.be/gu42WaYY4U4


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## evilamc

I think she looks pretty good in the video, and so happy! Have you done a fecal check or dewormed her lately? That could cause some weightloss too if she has worms.


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## evilamc

Have you been looking on facebook? Here in VA we have some really great horse facebook groups that you can post what you're looking for in.


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## dkb811

I can't see her weight loss, I'm on my phone. She sure looks happy and playful though! Of course she needs to be fed right .But this seems healthier for her than being stalled all the time.


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## KigerQueen

she was dewormed not too long ago. i will be worming her on monday to see if it helps. i am on several az fb groups and have asked on there first before i found where she is at. still cant find boarding for the other 4. wish we could just rent land.

here is a pic of her yesterday and before i moved her. she looks better in the pic than she dose in person. the hardest part is that she seams happy but she looks like hell.


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## SlideStop

Did the BO switch the hay or something? Maybe she isn't eating enough of what she is given?? 

Also, if she out with that colt all 24/7? I see a lot of him chasing after her, not really "playing". Being harrassed like that could of also caused her to lose weight. 

Did you ask the BO why she dropped weight?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

no that was the second time out with him. she was in a large dirt pen with two stalls to go in whenever she felt like. they would lock the colt up and let her graze for half the day. she was getting bermuda but started dropping weight within a week. it was slow weight loss and she had more room (and it was horribly hot and muggy out) so did not think much of it. it evened out after about a week or so and i had them up her hay a bit. she stayed the same weight for about a month. then she just dumped it. it could have been from our 115+ heat with 20-50% humidity (she is not doing humidity well) having more room and her hunger strike. Really want this to work but feeling extremely discouraged. she looked happy but like some rescue horse that had not been there long. going to bring up some strategy healthy edge for them to feed her daily. 

Fiance doesn't think she has been getting turned out like they said though. he went to turn her out and she tried to bolt with him. she dose NOT act like that and it had him concerned.


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## natisha

I wouldn't jump the gun on moving her. Sure she may have lost some weight but you'd expect that after being stuck in a stall for so long. Now she's actually moving around. She looks happy & sound. I wouldn't blow it by taking her back to one of those mare motel prisons.
Of course she wants the grass! She was barely fed where she was before & was likely often hungry. I think her belly looks more filled now than before.
In time she'll settle down.

I had a fancy Saddlebred show horse come here for boarding after his show life of being in a stall 24 hours a day. I told the owners he would lose flab & develop muscle & not to worry when he looks thinner. 
One day they showed up & said the vet was coming to check him out "for weight loss." The vet pulled up, watched 2 horses play fighting then came in the barn to see the sick horse. The owners brought him in, vet asked if he was the one she just saw running & playing. Confirmed. Vet wouldn't waste their money on labs but did explain the same things I had. She did charge for a farm call.


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## egrogan

Ah, seeing the pictures, she doesn't look how I expected based on your description. Doesn't seem too bad.


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## KigerQueen

that pic makes her look better. her top line is gone. nothing but bone. and when her head's up i can see her ribs. for some reason that pic looks good. ill get more on monday. BO came out and before i said anything about her weight she got kinda defensive and said they had upped her hay and she has dropped weight in 2 days after letting her graze for the better part of the two days. thats set off an alarm in my head. id belive that level of weight loss in a short time if my mare was in pain. but she is not so....

thats why i have not moved her. she is not running around by any means where she is currently. its smaller than a round pen with stalls attached. im giving it time for her to gain weight with her getting the alfalfa and the strategy. she is not handling the humidity well though. she is covered in crusty sweat. from the tips of her ears to her tail. like if someone dumped her in the ocean and did not rinse her off. dont know how to help her with that one though. 

it was a shock to see her like that though. a cuple of weeks ago she looked fit, had a nice topline and only slightly bleached out. come back and she is at least 50-60lbs lighter than she was, completely bleached out and her coat looks dull (it was shiny and healthy). she is kinda past the normal time a horse will drop weight from a move. thats why im alarmed. this is the end of month 2 of being there.


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## Saddlebag

How's her salt intake? Horses don't get enough salt from a lick as it makes the tongue sore. Loose salt should be provided also. I started doing this years ago and immediately noticed a greater uptake of salt. Then someone did a research paper on this and came to the same conclusion.


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## KigerQueen

she gets table salt in her feed every day. she is not aloud to have a salt lick after she went though her 50lb one in less than 3 weeks (and i was pulling 5 wheelbarrows of **** dirt out of her stall every day. self like i was digging to china). she is getting plenty of salt. i might give her a mineral block as it has soome salt in it as well though not as much.


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## KigerQueen

Before its asked she had her teeth floated last september and she should be good. ill have them checked at her next vet appointment in jan. she was wormed middle to end of june so ill worm her again. cheaper just to worm her then get a fecal done at least with the vets i know.

this is what she was getting before i boarded her.

am 2-3lbs of bermuda alfalfa pellets.

Lunch 15lbs of bermuda pellets and 5lbs of senior, mineral salt, epsom salt, oil and some days some ACV made into a mush, with meds.

Pm 2-3lbs of bermuda alfalfa pellets.

and she looked like this.









she is now getting 

am 2 (10lb) flakes of bermuda.

some grazing about 4+ hours a day

pm scoop of senior with water and salt with her meds. 1 flake of bermuda.

and she looks like this.


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## evilamc

That's almost been a year then for her teeth? I've always had to get my horses done yearly, but maybe since shes a little older she doesn't need it as soon?

She went from being in covered enclosure pretty much 24/7 to actually getting out on pasture and being in the sun to be a horse! I wouldn't be so stressed about he getting bleached out some. Shes probably happy shes getting to be a horse in a field for a few hours a day 

myhorsemanslab.com does fecals for I think $16 a piece, they send you a package with everything you need and prepaid envelope to mail it back. Keep that in mind if you do decide to do a fecal, may be cheaper then your vet.


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## KigerQueen

this is not the first time my horse has been on pasture. this was when she was on pasture before and she was out for at least 12 hours a day, every day. when i bought her she has spent the past 3 years on pasture. she was faded but not that bad. and its not just the fading. its the weight drop, the dull unhealthy coat and the fact it looks like she is not being fed properly. how defensive BO was about it, lack of communication between my friend and i as to the fact my mare dropped weight and nothing was said. her horses are healthy, fat and have shiny coats. there have been alarms bells going off but im ignoring them for now. Im willing to give it a little while but if i dont see any improvement soon i will find a place to move her too.

as for her teeth most of the horses in our area over 10 dont need their teeth done every year. she is about 1 year and 6 months before she needs it done (from what my vet and i have observed) rocket has not had his teeth done in over 4 years and the vet says hes good (hes 30 though).


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## natisha

Please stop comparing other horses to yours. Each is different.
Your mare clearly needs better food. From what I've read bermuda hay isn't always the best nutritionally. Try alfalfa now that she's not cooped up all the time.
A good pelleted fat supplement would help too.


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## SlideStop

If you were gone and she had sweat on her for two week of course she is going to bleach. I'm pretty impressed she didn't bleach already. 

It doesn't sound like she is getting nearly enough hay. Only 3 flakes a day? Also, maybe the hay is different, causing a change in the nutritional content of the hay? 

I'd be reluctant to move her too, there's a missing piece to this story I think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

she was fat on 3 flakes of bermuda when i boarded her at another friends house. she got daily turn out there too. she is getting safe choice senior now and we are adding alfalfa. as for the sweat the first week down there i was there every other day. and within a day she was coated. i dont know why she is but the other two are not. i dont think there is a different hay supplier where she is getting her hay but who knows. i am also reluctant to move her. BUT. the fact no one said anything to me about any of this is what i dont like. my friend has my number and facebook, she could have mentioned it to me easily. i had to see her to find out. there is little to no communication and that's the icing on the cake with this.


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## SueNH

She's getting older. Horses are creatures of habit, older horses more so. You just moved her. Possibly she's taking it a little harder. Horses aren't generally a big fan of change.

She could be missing her old neighbors even if there wasn't much chance for them to interact in those little pipe corral/stall things I see so many pictures of out west. Add an annoying colt to the picture and I could see her loosing weight fast.
Horses do mourn friends. She may have had a friend you never suspected.

Being loose and moving is so much better for her in the long run. 

Just be there more and watch for now. Add some alfalfa pellets to her ration. Rinse her off. Make a mental note of her feed and watch.

If you go off half cocked you could ruin a friendship and a good thing for your horse.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> she was fat on 3 flakes of bermuda when i boarded her at another friends house. she got daily turn out there too. she is getting safe choice senior now and we are adding alfalfa. as for the sweat the first week down there i was there every other day. and within a day she was coated. i dont know why she is but the other two are not. i dont think there is a different hay supplier where she is getting her hay but who knows. i am also reluctant to move her. BUT. the fact no one said anything to me about any of this is what i dont like. my friend has
> my number and facebook, she could have mentioned it to me easily. i had to see her to find out. there is little to no communication and that's the icing on the cake with this.


Maybe they didn't want to worry you if there was nothing you could do from where you were?


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## greentree

Kiger, i see what you are concerned about......however, i can also see the other side. That is, as you say, you cannot afford to jump in your truck and run out there. You cannot afford to spend a lot extra in supplements, and or vets. Your mare looks like a pasture horse. They sweat, it bleaches them out. They don't get a bunch of controlled exercise...they lose the topline. If there is not enough lysine in their feed, they lose the topline. 

They see her everyday, so the change is not dramatic to them.


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## egrogan

I feel like a real dummy for asking this, but...

What does a coat lightening from the sun have to do with potential neglect?

The two horses at my barn with a dark brown coat color similar to Negra's also get much lighter in the summer, and my mare's bay coat changes color winter vs. summer.

I'm stumped!


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## Horseychick87

egrogan said:


> I feel like a real dummy for asking this, but...
> 
> What does a coat lightening from the sun have to do with potential neglect?
> 
> The two horses at my barn with a dark brown coat color similar to Negra's also get much lighter in the summer, and my mare's bay coat changes color winter vs. summer.
> 
> I'm stumped!


 Her coat likely would have bleached anyways, but it probably bleached faster since she's been coated in sweat and since Kiger can't be there everyday it is apparent that the people caring for her may not be taking proper care of her and at least brushing her coat out.



Kiger, you said she bolted with your fiancé? Could Negra maybe have gotten the upper hand on your friend and now they maybe don't want to have to handle her to turn her out as often or go into her stall to feed her? Figured I'd just ask since I've seen this happen fairly often at boarding stables.

Either way I can see her topline is thinned out a little bit in the photo, but I expect some weight lose going into turnout from basically none. As suggested some more alfalfa, and maybe some kind of fat supplement should do the trick.


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> I want to cry right now. Saw her since i could not fot the last 2 weeks. She looks like hell. She lost quite a bit of weight. I can see her spine and her ribs. She is coated an i thick layor of dried sweat and is crusty from it. She compleatly bleached out in a bad way. Turned her out and she moves beautifuly. I cant move her back because she wont stay sound if i do. But i cant find pasture board under 250 and within 45 min of me. I feel lost right now. Damed if i do dammed if i dont.


Honestly the weight is a valid concern but the rest? Doesn't matter.

She's sweaty? You're in AZ.. Bleached? See what I just said (and that is PURELY cosmetic!!) I would DIE if it was 30% humidity here. That is a REALLY REALLY nice day. Maybe more than you are used to in the desert but really not something that makes that much of a difference even if you aren't used to it.

Take a big breath. First- why 2 weeks? If you're doing all the work you should be taking care of her. If you are gone have an agreement like your friend will hose and flyspray her on hot days, etc. Just some basic stuff that you usually do that should be done while you're gone.

Second- weight, obviously needs to be addressed, why has she lost weight? Also, change/up her feed. Not a big deal. Honestly I am a little concerned cause she was pretty darn thin to begin with :/

Can't see her weight in the video but I would put my money on that snotty little chestnut brat causing the weight issues. He REALLY needs a good butt kicking!!! He's going to kill that dog some day.

Separate those 2. Idk what "up her grain means" but with senior you can usually just pour it right into them.


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## Yogiwick

Writing as I read- it sounds like you are feeding her LESS?


And "Her coat likely would have bleached anyways, but it probably bleached faster since she's been coated in sweat and since Kiger can't be there everyday it is apparent that the people caring for her may not be taking proper care of her and at least brushing her coat out."

I have worked at many top notch places. Unless a horse came in covered in sweat I would not be brushing or hosing them unless the owner specifically asked. I highly doubt these people are aware that they should be "at least brushing her coat out"... If Kiger wanted that (or hosing) she should have asked and she should also expect to pay for it.


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## egrogan

Yogiwick said:


> Writing as I read- it sounds like you are feeding her LESS?
> 
> 
> And "Her coat likely would have bleached anyways, but it probably bleached faster since she's been coated in sweat and since Kiger can't be there everyday it is apparent that the people caring for her may not be taking proper care of her and at least brushing her coat out."
> 
> I have worked at many top notch places. Unless a horse came in covered in sweat I would not be brushing or hosing them unless the owner specifically asked. I highly doubt these people are aware that they should be "at least brushing her coat out"... If Kiger wanted that (or hosing) she should have asked and she should also expect to pay for it.


I'm glad you said this as I just don't get this part of it. I think we'd have a lot of people angry of their BO was grooming their horse regularly without their knowledge. I sometimes need to go out of town for a week at a time for work, and if I asked the BM to groom or hose my horse, she certainly would, but otherwise she'd just get feed and turnout and feet looked at at turn-in. A sun leached coat just seems like part of summer to me.

But weight loss and importer feeding, I think we all agree that's worrisome. I wish this sweet little mare could catch a break one of these days...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Horseychick87

Yogiwick said:


> Writing as I read- it sounds like you are feeding her LESS?
> 
> 
> And "Her coat likely would have bleached anyways, but it probably bleached faster since she's been coated in sweat and since Kiger can't be there everyday it is apparent that the people caring for her may not be taking proper care of her and at least brushing her coat out."
> 
> I have worked at many top notch places. Unless a horse came in covered in sweat I would not be brushing or hosing them unless the owner specifically asked. I highly doubt these people are aware that they should be "at least brushing her coat out"... If Kiger wanted that (or hosing) she should have asked and she should also expect to pay for it.





egrogan said:


> I'm glad you said this as I just don't get this part of it. I think we'd have a lot of people angry of their BO was grooming their horse regularly without their knowledge. I sometimes need to go out of town for a week at a time for work, and if I asked the BM to groom or hose my horse, she certainly would, but otherwise she'd just get feed and turnout and feet looked at at turn-in. A sun leached coat just seems like part of summer to me.
> 
> But weight loss and importer feeding, I think we all agree that's worrisome. I wish this sweet little mare could catch a break one of these days...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Around here it's a common courtesy to quickly brush any dried sweat off of a horse, and most of the barns in my area do seem to include this in the board , especially if the owner cannot be present everyday. Unless the owner asks them not to of course. I guess I automatically assumed that Kiger would have had some kind of agreement to have Negra brushed down.

Yes a sun bleached coat is part of summer, that is a given. The point I was trying to make and seems to have been missed was that maybe the BO is not doing what she is supposed to for some reason.


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## liltuktuk

It seems like she's getting less to eat (or at least less nutritious) and more free exercise. Both of those would contribute to the weight loss. Switching from Alfalfa to bermuda was probably a decrease in the calories, even if you're feeding the same weight. Alfalfa has more calories per pound than grass hay generally. I see you added some alfalfa cubes back in, good, give it a few weeks and see what happens.

She's getting 1 scoop of senior pellets a day? How much does that weigh? Using my scoop, one full scoop of safechoice senior was about 2.5 pounds. My arab mare who is in the 950 lb range should be getting about 5 lbs a day, so would need 2 of those scoops. If she's not getting a full amount of the pellets she could be lacking certain nutrients, which could contribute to the dull coat and rain rot. Adding the alfalfa or more senior could remedy that.

30% humidity!!! I would kill for that. We've been in the mid 80's recently with at least 70% humidity. My mare never had any dried sweat on her and she's out 24/7, and the herd tends to hang around the roundbales out in the sun all day and not in the shade. I suspect the sweat is due to her being run around by that colt. Anyway to have her out by herself? Let her graze and relax? 

I wouldn't worry about the bleached out coat, its summer, it happens. My mare would be bleached out if she wasn't grey. Heck, my own hair is bleached out from spending so much time in the sun. You're not showing her, its a good sign that she's been outside being a horse!


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## KigerQueen

The vid was the FIRST time her and the colt where let to run around like that. the past two months she has been in her dirt run of out by herself with no pestering colts. so he has not been running her around as she has not been out with him.

30%+ humidity with 115 degree heat is not fun though. and she is getting more feed weight wise. 30lbs of hay and 5lbs of senior. she was getting 19+lbs of pellets and 5lbs of senior. and she did kick snotts butt snortly before the vid and after lol. he tried to jump on her and got a hoof to the chest and gut. when my mare is not getting the right amount of food she bleaches. she was on pasture for 3 months at another friends, hardly any shade and only a shade sail for shade in her stall (and was not fully covered). she has more room and was out A LOT more in the big field than she is where she is at now. she did not drop weight at all during that time and she did not bleach or sweat at all like she is now. that's why im concerned. she has ALOT more shade where she is at now, you can see why the fact she is suddenly bleaching this year as opposed to the 3 years on pasture, 1 year being turned out into a dirt lot and stall with run, and a friends pasture with almost no shade and no weight loss (quite the opposite) and no bleaching. that to almost 2 months where she is now and a quick weight drop and severe bleaching.

i know the bleaching is cosmetic but her coat is dull, not a healthy coat. she has bleached a bit in the past but she was always shiny. it would not be a concern if she has bleached at the various other mostly outdoor places i have boarded her at. the humidity may well be over 30 and she is not weathering it well. might not be helping with her weight since she is always coated in sweat. normally on a day with 115 degree heat she would minimally sweat in her stall. now its 106 and it looks like someone took the hose to her.

as for board it basically full board. i come out and do basic groomings (they dont normally even groom theirs, they dont need it). they feed and clean and fill the water. 

as for the 2 weeks it was due to schedule change at work. i work more hours and only have monday and thursdays off. with how my days off are spaced i have a harder time getting the things i need done, done. and just going to work and back im spending over $60 a week. so its taking a chunk out of where and how far i can drive besides an hour to work. its a 4th of a tank to go see my mare and come home. i can do it maybe one day a week but the first week i could not afford the gas. the next week my truck was so desperate for an oil change that it was not moving more than it needed to (looks like parents did not change the oil when they said because 5k miles of street driving will not make oil look like black tar).


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> The vid was the FIRST time her and the colt where let to run around like that. the past two months she has been in her dirt run of out by herself with no pestering colts. so he has not been running her around as she has not been out with him.
> 
> 30%+ humidity with 115 degree heat is not fun though. and she is getting more feed weight wise. 30lbs of hay and 5lbs of senior. she was getting 19+lbs of pellets and 5lbs of senior. and she did kick snotts butt snortly before the vid and after lol. he tried to jump on her and got a hoof to the chest and gut. when my mare is not getting the right amount of food she bleaches. she was on pasture for 3 months at another friends, hardly any shade and only a shade sail for shade in her stall (and was not fully covered). she has more room and was out A LOT more in the big field than she is where she is at now. she did not drop weight at all during that time and she did not bleach or sweat at all like she is now. that's why im concerned. she has ALOT more shade where she is at now, you can see why the fact she is suddenly bleaching this year as opposed to the 3 years on pasture, 1 year being turned out into a dirt lot and stall with run, and a friends pasture with almost no shade and no weight loss (quite the opposite) and no bleaching. that to almost 2 months where she is now and a quick weight drop and severe bleaching.
> 
> i know the bleaching is cosmetic but her coat is dull, not a healthy coat. she has bleached a bit in the past but she was always shiny. it would not be a concern if she has bleached at the various other mostly outdoor places i have boarded her at. the humidity may well be over 30 and she is not weathering it well. might not be helping with her weight since she is always coated in sweat. normally on a day with 115 degree heat she would minimally sweat in her stall. now its 106 and it looks like someone took the hose to her.
> 
> as for board it basically full board. i come out and do basic groomings (they dont normally even groom theirs, they dont need it). they feed and clean and fill the water.
> 
> as for the 2 weeks it was due to schedule change at work. i work more hours and only have monday and thursdays off. with how my days off are spaced i have a harder time getting the things i need done, done. and just going to work and back im spending over $60 a week. so its taking a chunk out of where and how far i can drive besides an hour to work. its a 4th of a tank to go see my mare and come home. i can do it maybe one day a week but the first week i could not afford the gas. the next week my truck was so desperate for an oil change that it was not moving more than it needed to (looks like parents did not change the oil when they said because 5k miles of street driving will not make oil look like black tar).


I get why you're worried but think you are reading too much into some things (bleaching is not related to weight, though it may be to diet...or may not).

Why don't you give her some pellets too?

Weather- wanna trade? XD

Sweating- pretty sure you already said you give her salt. She is 19ish right? She may just be changing as she ages, I know mine are. She may also be developing some "old age" issues. Not necessarily related to care at the barn. Cushings comes to mind.

You need a different car lol. Can't help but cringing every time I hear "14mpg"!! Anyways, I get it and wasn't trying to give you a hard time for not coming out just that if you don't/can't come out either expect the minimum (what you've agreed to) or arrange for any extras you want ahead of time.

I know it must of been a shock but wouldn't be so quick to panic. Just up her feed. When were her teeth done? She's not ancient but may have some tooth issues.


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## SueNH

72% humidity right now. Rarely goes under 60% this time of year.

You moved her. She's getting older. Watch, adjust feed and watch some more. A good scoop of alfalfa pellets may just do it. It would be the first thing I'd try. I've had several old horses. I've had to adjust feed at least 2x as they have aged. Some more.

As I have aged I've had to adjust my own feed intake. I also tolerate heat less well. No reason to believe a horse is going to be different. I also ache in places that didn't bother me 10 yrs ago and know it was from something I did to myself at 18.

I've got an 8 cylinder, 4WD pickup too. Raspberries on the Hemi. I don't move the darn thing unless I can combine trips.


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## Horseychick87

How does Negra look today? (I was away for the weekend, yet again with no internet, ugh.)

It's supposed to be up to 91% humidity here tonight at 9 pm...meh, so much for going for a run once it's 'cooled off'.


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## KigerQueen

i have not headed down there yet. its 102 and i have no a/c so a 30 min drive in this weather is not happening lol. when the vet checked her in june he said her teeth where good and they were done last august. she has been there about 2 months now and was settled within the first 48 hours so i dont think its move related. I have asked if they have started giving her alfalfa (i pay them and they buy the feed) but have not heard back yet. ill try to get better pics. i tend to have someone there breathing down my neck and i dont want them to think im taking pics of a crime scene lol!

as for the humidity yes high humidity is not fun (even though i love maryland and PA in july, it feels cooler then out here at the same time). but when its 102-110 with 20-40% humidity and the horse is used to MAYBE 15% humidity on an odd day it a bit of a shock to their system.


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## KigerQueen

Sooo ****ed! Her feed bin was open against her stall. She helped herself to 30lbs of senior. Luckily she did not eat 80 days worth of privacox while she was at it! She is coverd in fleaky dandrift, the hair is falling out in climps on her butt and face. And now im worried she will collic after helping herself... Ill post pics when im home.


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## KigerQueen

she has lost MORE weight since i was there. she looks like hell, her hair is falling out, she is covered in body dandruff and is beyond spooky. she spooked so bad at the wind she almost fell on her butt tied up. this horse has NEVER been this spooky. Done. so done. i have to get another $17 bag of feed. im getting the safe choice power boost. has more fat than the senior and is a little cheaper. think we found a place that will turn her out in the arena for almost the entire day if i ask for it. we shall see.

gave her a good scribbdown today with shampoo. redid her tail and tale bag and quickly brushed her mane. scrubbed all the scaleness on her butt and most the hair with it. She liked it and i think she feels better now. wish i could have scrubbed her face but she was acting way to stupid and with the storm i was not fighting her with it today. she has nearly ripped her shoes of her back hooves so idk what to do with that. might get easy walkers for her backs because they have clipps.

anyway here are the pics i got today. not the best as she was very fidgety.


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## Yogiwick

If you are talking about Neutrena Empower that's a weight supp and not a feed. I'm not a fan of safe choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## liltuktuk

Based on these photos, she is definitely thin, mostly in lack of muscle along the topline. Her neck and ribs don't look horrible, but she's obviously not getting proper nutrition, and a healthy horse getting sufficient hay and safe choice senior would not look like this. So:

1. its been about a year since her teeth were done, maybe she's due? Who's doing her teeth, do they actually know what they're doing?
2. Ulcers? 
3. Your friend is not feeding her what she says she is. 

Regarding the dandruff/rainrot, another sign that she is not receiving proper nutrition. My mare gets some rain rot every now and then, not a big deal, but I live in the northeast, its a wet climate. You're in the desert, so what's causing it? Could be fungal, could be bacterial. Do any of the other horses have it?


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## KigerQueen

her hair falling out is a skin issue. it has happened before but has been gone the past cuple of years. its not rain rot though what it is i cant figure out. she gets it sometimes when she is not bathed weekly. And only vets can do teeth out here and she was checked before she went down there in june by my vet (who dose her teeth). she also was fine before i moved her down there. remember this is ALL within a 2 month time period. The other horses are FAT, not a little fat, their mare i would have on horseie weight watchers in a heart beat. Both dam and the colt have shiny healthy coats and they dont get groomed or hosed down either. they are healthy as can be. My mare has never been a hard keeper ethier. when i boarded her at a friends she was getting 4 meals a day. 2 3 flakes in a day and two of the feedings where only half a flake, she was turned loose with 2 tbs all day and had a large stall with a run. she was chunky, happy and not bleached out. I know i keep coming back to her coat but its more than just bleached. her skin looks bad, her coat looks bad and she looks bad. her coat never looked this bad before. even when she was in pasture board situations within the past 2 years.

Im also ****ed off that my mare was allowed to eat 30lbs of senior. they said the wind must have blown it against her stall. there had been NO storm between this morning when they should have fed and when i got there. So either they left it to close to her stall or they did NOT feed that morning like they said they did.

as fore ulcers she dose not act like she has them. dont have the money to have her scoped though you would think access to hours of grazing would alleviate any she had. Assuming she is even getting the grazing. 

there is a place my fiance knows of we will be stopping by today. she has 3 arenas and a large round pen. she will tour your horse out for the entire day if you want her too so if i can i may move my mare there. im looking for a place to move her. i know my horse. she should be getting just as much if not more feed than she was before. she was getting maybe 4 lbs of pellets total a day from the old BO and i would sup with 15-20 lbs of soaked pellets and 5lbs of senior. she should be getting 10 lbs of alfalfa and 20 of grass AND 5lbs of senior. There is NO reason she should be dropping weight. I have a pic of her after her first month there and i had warning alarms go off but i shrugged it off as from moving her. now i call bs.


She healthy coat and weight to skinny and dull fast.


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## KigerQueen

here is what she looked like the first month that i moved her.


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## SueNH

Do you have biting midges in the early morning, like dawn? I know nothing much is moving in the midday heat. Could she be rubbing the hair out?

I have terrible no-see-ums this time of year but it's only at dawn and dusk. The deer flies didn't let up this year but the big horse flies are few because we have been on the dry side, for here.

How long ago did you switch feed brands/types?
The hay is different from when you moved?

My old STB was a dark bay, nearly black. As she aged she bleached out more. I'm assuming she just wasn't digesting things like she used to. My old app mare is a dark bay and she seems like she bleached out more this year but apps are so changeable from season to season, year to year it doesn't bother me because I can see dapples among the roaning, spots and gray hairs.

You bathe her frequently. Are you drying her skin out? Getting all the soap out? Old horses and old people generally have trouble with dry skin. Things just don't recover like they use to. I rarely bathe my horses unless there is a medical problem or the heat is horrendous. 

The water comes out of the hose at about 45 degrees so it's a bit of a rude awakening. It's only just got that warm. Most of the year it's colder.

There is a big nutritional difference between alfalfa and bermuda. Most of the west is in drought. I would expect the growing conditions to be marginal. The actual values can differ depending on husbandry practices, weather and soil conditions.

HAY ~ NUTRITIONAL VALUE CHART | bunniesinneed.net


I'd add a scoop of alfalfa pellets to her diet. Could be just that simple.

Granted my app is much older but she is about the same size, small horse/large pony. I give her a large coffee can, 2 lb can, of senior feed morning and night. That's just under 4lbs of feed per can. She also gets a large coffee can of a hay stretcher and alfalfa pellets mixed with each meal. I've got plenty of green grass. Grass hay is free choice once the cold weather hits. I rarely get hot enough for the grass to go dormant from heat.

I still consider the app an easy keeper. I have had some where I've given similar amounts of feed but also fed a full 5 gallon pail of soaked beet pulp at each meal to them and still couldn't get them plump. The last few years of my old STB, she was a bottomless pit. She wasn't always like that though. It changed and I had to keep upping the feed.


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## KigerQueen

did not switch feed types. the pellets she was eating was from one of the 2 main hay suppliers in az so its the same hay just not pelleted. and they have biting bugs but the only bug bites she has is mosquito bites. they hair loss happens only when she is losing weight at not getting cleaned enough (really only in that combo because before i moved her i did not always clean her well but she was a good weight. this seems to happen with weight loss so bad nutrition?)

also i had this mare at good weight about 2 months ago. she was getting alfalfa bermuda mix pellets and senior. she was healthy and happy but pellets when they are not grazing is not good for their gut as there is no free choice feed. i prefer to feed grass hay ans feeding her alfalfa where i used to board was like giving crack to a crack head. my mare was not getting out enough and hyper arab who needed to not run and buck did not need that level of hyper. now she is moveing around that much im ok with the alfalfa.


Here is the issue. almost a year ago i boarded at a friends. my mare was getting ONLY 3 flakes of bermuda a day. and she got chunky. she spent most of her time on her 12X20 run of she was not turned out in the arena with 2 tbs (who she ran around with alot as they liked to run) or she mowed their lawn for them. The fact that 3 flakes of bermuda and 5lbs of senior a day she is losing weight is not ok. considering she should be getting grazing time. Adding alfalfa has not helped though like is should have. my 14.2hh arabian is getting 35lbs of food a day and not being able to maintain a healthy body weight. considering less than that WAS making her gain weight there is only 2 thinks that make sense as to why she is losing weight. the humidity and heat are causing her to sweat her weight off. or they are not feeding her right.


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## liltuktuk

Based on your above post, I would go with they're not feeding her what was agreed upon.

If what you're saying is correct in regards to number of flakes and weight, she should be maintaining just fine on 30 lbs of hay a day and 5 lbs of pellets. I doubt the weight loss is due to the heat and humidity, even if its hotter/more humid than normal currently, she's lived in that type of climate for how long? Her whole life? Her body is adjusted to it. So either something else is physically wrong or she's not being fed.


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## natisha

I can't see why someone wouldn't feed her a you requested. No one likes to look at an unthrifty horse under their care, I would hope.

How does her manure look. It may be helpful to get it examined or you can.
What Does Your Horse's Stool Say? | TheHorse.com


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## KigerQueen

Her manure is dry as always. She pees alot but she dose not drink alot. Thats why any and all pelleted feeds she gets is fed to her in a mush. Her watter barrel is filled a cuple of times a day and clean so she always has water. She looked slightly better today. But im still going to move her. Her eating her entier months worth of senior in one day was it for me. There was only 1 gallion on oil and 8lbs of epson salt in the bin and the feed bin did not move after the crazy storm we had.


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## Yogiwick

Not saying there's not something going on but it is true that she's getting older and things change and also pellets may work better for her than hay and 5lbs is not a lot for her condition (before or now).

Regardless sounds like something is going on, like the bag propped against her stall, etc.


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## KigerQueen

Yeah. Looked at a place today. Will find out tomorrow if it will happen or not. The 5lbs of senior is more for her medication than anything. But 30lbs of hay for a 14.2hh egyptain arabian should be enough.


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## Yogiwick

If you are concerned about her weight up her senior, that is all I was trying to say.

I don't weigh my hay, just go off "feel" and knowing what the horses need lol. 30 lbs doesn't sound like a crazy huge amount though and she's never been fat since I've "known" her. Does she eat it all? Is it good hay? She may just need more hard feed now that she's getting older. My Arab is 22? and is just starting to look "old" (relatively speaking lol) and is needing some diet tweaks.

Good luck with this new place. Let us know how it goes. I would be looking for quality of hay and plan on upping her senior (or doing some other tweaks).

She definitely lost that shine she had a few months ago poor girl.


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## KigerQueen

the hay in az is all crap. its filled with dirt and some loads are good and some a crap. dose not matter where you get it from. that being said i had them up her senior though if they are i have no idea. 

Checked out the new place. BO has 10+ arabians including 3 well behaved studs (two are stalled next to each other in pipe stalls. had to look and see if they were studs because i could not believe it). all horses are a lil chunky and healthy. BO also still shows alot and more then just halter and she shows in the A rated shows. Two issues. 1 it $280 a month for board. i MIGHT be able to afford that though i will be suffering quite a bit for that. If i want turn out in the arenas its an extra $100 a month. That i cant afford at all that would be more than half my monthly income at that point. So im stuck. move here and have her turned out only a few times a week (when i can get up there) or leave her where she is at and where she is sound, but looked like hell.


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## Yogiwick

I wish board was $280 here lol. I'm always amazed at how different things are!!

Did you talk to the BO about her navicular? What does "no turnout" mean? a 12x12 stall?

Having a knowledgeable BO/BM is huge in my book. Not necessarily worth locking a horse in a stall, but definitely worth finding a compromise esp since you have concerns with the place you're at now. It would be nice if something came up and you couldn't go to check in and see she looks even better than when you left!


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## KigerQueen

the stall looks like its close if not bigger than her old stall that was 14x30. im thinking its 16x25-30. I can turn her out in one of the 3 arenas myself but if i wanted them to turn her out for me it would be $100 extra a month. but i would feel better with her there. she feeds pellets and i will ask if she could soak them before she fed them (or fed them in a bucket of water so she has to get enough water in her daily since apparently drinking like a normal horse is too much for her). 
I LOVE the place though!
The place has 3 wash/grooming stalls and a standalone wash rack. hot walker and large round pen. 3 arenas, several tack sheds, fly spray system (though it might only go to some stalls not all) and someone there all the time. Ill have to keep think on it as i may not be able to afford it though if i say goodbye to any social life i pretend to have (so leaving the house once or twice a week besides going to work). It will be a bit easier once work picks up more for my fiance.


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## Yogiwick

It sounds nice!

Honestly if this place is the way it sounds.... Peace of mind = priceless.


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## KigerQueen

kinda where im at. ill more then likely move her there before my shoe on the 3rd of next month. wish i could move her sooner but its what it is.


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## KigerQueen

hay forgot to post pics of negras shoes. these have been reset every 4 weeks since april (so 5 months). they still look fantastic. And i only got a pic of one foot. its the front left. the front right still has a slightly crushed heal but its from how she stands when she eats/grazes. only so much can be done about that.


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## Horseychick87

Hopefully the new place will work out well. It does sound like they just aren't feeding her and if they truly are then maybe she's not digesting it well enough anymore.

The shoes still look good, how many resets have you done with those?


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## KigerQueen

thats 5-6 resets on them. i have had them on her since april. im quite impressed with them and kinda sad that the ones on her backs are not working. ill try them again once i move her. but i cant have her losing the shoes where she is at (and she took a nice chunk of hoof with the last one).


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## KigerQueen

Woot its set! i move her monday!!! and i can brake board into two payments so that makes life that much easier!


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## greentree

That IS good news! I hope it works out- it sounds WONDERFUL!


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## KigerQueen

it is! considering the BO is the pres of a branch of the Arabian horse Association (wont say what as i dont her her permission). Was texting her and she ask to see recent pics (i mentioned she was losing weight). i was set to move her at the end of the month but once she saw the pics she offered for this weekend! Im so excited! hopefully she will be ok with turn out 4-5 days a week.


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## Yogiwick

You can always tweak things later as you/her get settled in and life changes.


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## KigerQueen

Moving her went somewhat smoothly. went to pick my mare up and they had just irrigated so we were sinking in 5in of mud. THAT was fun. than all 3 horses were in her dirt lot, her being lock in the stall while mother and colt had run of the place. so THAT was fun. 

Once i got her to the new barn the BO set her up with a hay net filled with bermuda and alfalfa. she has no problem feeding her senior ethier and she will ad the salt, epsom salt and oil for me no charge. She has an auto waterer and a water bucket in my mares stall until Negra figures out the auto waterer. misters are on from 12 or 1 till 4pm while its hot out and my mare was LOVING that! Very excited! she agreed my mare needs a lot more weight and as she put it "we will have her show ready in no time". and considering all 14 of her arabians look fantastic i will believe her on this. 

Here is a cuple of crappy pics of her enjoying her hay.


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## Yogiwick

So excited. Hope this works out and a BO like this could be a wonderful mentor for you. I'd be curious to see how her other horses look. Negra has always been pretty thin and that picture about really shows how much weight she's lost beyond that . I am glad you are (both) in capable hands!!

Like I said, peace of mind = priceless!!

Good luck!


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## Horseychick87

Glad she's in the new place, she looked happy to have her hay net. 

Hopefully this new place will be just right for her and she'll gain back the weight.

5-6 resets are awesome! I do wonder how well they would hold up to eventing...I'll have to look that up.


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## KigerQueen

Ill get more pics of her cleaned up today. Possibly introduce her to the hot walker. If the arenas are ocupied i could always let her walk on the hot walker to help with her feet.


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## KigerQueen

was kept at work late yesterday so did not make it over there but i was bale to get there this morning. She was a turd for the first hour but she got over herself. did NOT like the wash stall. so she got to spend about 30 min in it before i left. she pooped 12 times just being in and near the wash stalls. she calmed down though. braided her name and rebagged her tail. both will need some TLC (the mane more than the tail) to get them back to where they were before i moved her. 
I dont know how much a weight a horse can gain in 2 1/2 days but she already looks alot better! so happy! and once she is at a good weight the BO offered to help me retrain her (if she can hold up to riding). Everyone is really nice there, place is filled mostly with Mothers and their kids boarding their horses so the drama is almost non existent from what i can tell. SO glad i moved her!!!

This vid was at the end of her wash stall stay. 
https://youtu.be/br9OjsaGS70

and her first time turned out there.
https://youtu.be/eaFXS8HFtQs


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## ApolloRider

I love her cute face. I'm glad you got her moved she looked like she needed a break! ❤


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## natisha

All good news.
She needs a fly mask, I think she'd appreciate it.
If you'd like I think I have a almost new Arab size I'm not using anymore & would happily send it to you.


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## Yogiwick

OT but how cute is that pony eating the polo wraps?? LOL

Nice to see a bunch of happy healthy looking horses in the background!!

So excited for you and her!


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## KigerQueen

I might try a fly mask again. She talorates the fly mask for a few days. Then she dose this half rear spin as soon as you try to put it on. If you are looking to get rid of it though ill give it a try. Maybe she has grown up in the past two years. 


Today i put her on the hot walker for the first time. She was on it for about 40 min. I like the hot walker. On days like today when i cant turn out she can still move around. And its not strenuous work ethier. I might be able to come down on sat and ether put her on it again or turn her out.

Anyway here is a vid
https://youtu.be/0j9tLIIoO-g


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## KigerQueen

here are some pics. i cant believe how much better she is looking. Found out some exciting news. BO was saying at the last board meeting the AHA was playing around with the idea of genetically testing arabians whose papers were lost. Then after confirming they are indeed arabians having them registered as half arabians. once its official (Bo said it was agreed upon now they just need to implement it) I can Get Negra Registered with the aha and show in breed shows (if i want to). BO really likes her. cant wait to see what she looks like once she is in better shape. :loveshower:


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## Yogiwick

^What does she do after that? Just hold her so she can't do it..?

and LOL at that video. She is so confused lol. What a good girl!


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## KigerQueen

once i give up on the fly mast she is completely normal. she is fine with the mask until i try to put it near her head. i will post a vid on how bad she was about the mask. And once its on its off again and smooshed into a pee spot. she has given me her opinion on them i guess lol. i need to pick up more swat soon and that helps alot.

She is being really good. im surprised she is not in head considering there are 3 studs on the property and 2 only 3 horses down form her. we walk past them to leave the stall area.

this was the tail end of her being a brat. she went past the rearing and spinning to the "well if you can't reach my face you cant get the mask on me!" i will say cutting back on her alfalfa did not impact her brattiness.

https://youtu.be/HRdUcQrt1J0


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## Yogiwick

Just halter her first. It's weird that she hates it so much but maybe just not used to it? She's so funny.


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## KigerQueen

She tolorates it at most. She just dose not like it. We put one on her when we trailer to protect her eyes. Ill try again with her. Worst case i use wat on her.


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## Yogiwick

Maybe it's similar to buying your cat a $50 cat bed and they prefer to sleep in the wood box on top of the wood lol


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## KigerQueen

that is really accurate with this mare. that's why i gave up on hay nets. she eats them. i had to use no climb fencing to make one. cheaper to make one out of fence than to buy a hay net lol.

now if i can eventually register her i need a name... Something La Negra (cant use La Negra as there is already an arab registerd as that on all breed).


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## KigerQueen

Ugh! One step forward two steps back... She is now gimpy going to the right and is starting to stand weird again. She walks and trotts nicely going left. I just cant win now can i.


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## Yogiwick

Hey, no worries, ups and downs are normal.

I would ask your fancy new BO for advice. I know the pics aren't "of" her horses but from what I've seen/heard she seems like an excellent mentor and contact.


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## Horseychick87

It's probably just her age showing a tiny bit at this point honestly.

She's so funny about some things, the fly masks, the hot walker. I can understand why, but it's cute.


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## KigerQueen

well i got some vid and pics from today. already looking so much better! it was fun watching her lunge her polish stallion. he moves like a horse twice his size. 

anyway undid the homemade tail bag. it was a braid in type but it was just to heavy. Will have to wait until i can afford the lycra to make one. i just might make her a sleazy too while im at it during the winter (or at least to put it on a day before a show/at a show).

Here is a vid of her free lunging. she was feeling good. did not ask much from her and she let me know when she was done. you can kinda see the slight gimp going right. and how normal she seems going left.

https://youtu.be/AiHfHbO8VS0

And here is round 2 on the hot walker. next time ill introduce the stud chain (Bo uses stud chains as it discourages most horses from stopping the hot walker) and then the pvc. that way i won't have to disassemble how she has it every time i put her on. and if i ask someone to throw her on it for me one day they wont have to do that much work.

https://youtu.be/VbbhBg2GQMQ


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## Horseychick87

LOL round 2 with the hot walker. :-D

She's looking better, and happier. The gimpy-ness is very slight, but I did see it (I often have trouble seeing any kind of gimp because of a vision issue.) but it looked like maybe she was just a bit sore.

The pictures look good. Her heels are coming along.


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## natisha

She doesn't appear to be the kind who would need a stud chain & I wonder how safe that is?
Does the hot walker only go one way?


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## KigerQueen

yes put all the studs chains are hooked up to quick release snaps so if she had a moment she would be free before she hurt herself. its not so much a need as a convenience thing and less hassle. she will also have more room on the end of the hot walker so she could get her head lower. and the chain will only "bite" if she tries to stop the hot walker. 3 of the BOs horses dont seem to care and will just stand there and stop the walker randomly. someone has to go over and yell at them to get walking again. then they will go around once and then spot again and chill out -_-'.

she has had a chain on her before and she dose not care really. she responds the same as she dose in a rope halter.

yes the hot walker only goes one way though BOs polish stud tried to bring it the otherway after a small snit fit. quickly got over himself though.


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## Yogiwick

Yeah I would only tie with a flat halter personally..

Does the BO have a decent farrier?


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## KigerQueen

nope. all the horses have 4-5inch long feet with flat collapsed heals. like just about every horse i have seen out here. my farrier is being called on to help more navicular horses. one guy has dumped over 5k into his horse just to try and get it sound. been though over 6 farriers who all have used wedges and backwards shoes. az farriers SUCK. one farrier (who i used once and my mare sat on him) talks about all his schooling and maps out the hoof. he has gotten sloppy and is shoeing horses in 30 min and doing a crappy job at best. ill stick with mine. 

i normally exclusively use rope halters on my horses. never had an issue. i just like her fancy halter . and it works better for the hot walker and cross ties.


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## natisha

Could her gimpiness be caused by only turning in one direction?


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## KigerQueen

It only seams to only be to the right. And its consistant so idk. Ill be getting her nerve blocked on dec or jan.


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## Horseychick87

How is she settling in?

It could be the increased movement in one direction, or age showing.

Have her shoes been wearing evenly? If not I'd suspect she's standing awkwardly and putting pressure on her gimpy leg.


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## KigerQueen

One heal is still slightly crushed. We are fighting an uphill battle with that one. She crushes it with how she stands. She has gotten better but she is still doing it.


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## KigerQueen

so i'm thinking of maybe next month hoping on negra for 10 min (if she is at a healthy weight. she is almost there and should be by next month). ill even time it. just walk her around the large arena. no tight turns or anything and see is she is ok afterwards. My fiance says he wants to get the ok from the vet (he said she was fine after last visit though). im ok with that but she wont be seeing him until next year or early december. 
At said vet appointment she will be getting more x rays (FIL insists so we can see if everything is staying the same/better) and i want to have her nerve blocked to see why she is still of on that one hoof.

what do you all think? im going to start ground driving her next week as she is already put her weight back on for the most part. walking/trotting on lines should not be too much for her.


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## Yogiwick

You want her lame for the blocks, no point otherwise.

No reason not to walk around if she's sound. Just experiment and take it slow. She will tell you.

Personally I don't feel the issue(s) is under control as she keeps on coming up lame again. As I said ups and downs are normal but I think there should be a game plan.


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## KigerQueen

that's the issue. she has been consistently off on that side. looking back on some of the vid when she was on pasture she was off. she is 100% going left and off going right. the only game plan my vet gave me was privacox and to keep shoeing her the way we are. so im kinda at a loss. i have added to as much movement for her a possible but pasture board/daily turnout is not going to happen.

agreed with the nerve blocking but if she is still off on that foot we might be able to narrow down something. my vet dose not like doing/charging for unnecessary things so if he feels we wont get anything out of it he wont do it.


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## KigerQueen

LOL found my old farrier's clist ad (the farrier my mare sat on). he must be the guy who dose BOs horses as all their feet look like this. he when to school to dod this. this is 20 years of experience for you. And it sure looks balanced!

seriously though this is 90% of what farriers do out here and how most hooves look. this is why i get so combative when people suggest a different farrier. unless i want to spend over 150 a month in gas and trimming to bring her 2 hours north for the eplo trimmer (not happening) ill stick with mine.


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## KigerQueen

negra was feeling fantastic today! she spazzed out when i turned her loose in the arena. then she got to spend 20 min on the hot walker. im going to switch her to the rope halter with side rings for the hot walker. she was stopping it today because she wanted to go back to her stall. 

Some of BOs bunnies got lose so negra had some fluffy stall mates. they were cute little ginger and black bunnies just hopping around scrounging any stray food. 
will be heading up there after work tomorrow. it was in the mid 90s today so its now cool enough to function outside.

anyway here is the end of her spazz attack. she was being silly. she insisted on making a circle in that one corner. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0UwCQkshfw


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## Yogiwick

Prices are good


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## KigerQueen

not if he lames your horse lol.
my farrier just worked on a horse about an hour away. this guy spend 6k in vet bills and farrier bills trying to make this navicular horse sound. gone through a lot of farriers who jacked up the heals, used pads or egbars and all around mess this poor horse up more. this poor horse looked crippled when my farrier saw it. my farrier (father in law) used the GC shoes and trimmed him the way he dose Negra. the horse walked off with heel first landing and was able to cross his front legs over when turning (he could only shuffle before, not cross over). he is scheduled to trim this horse again in 4 weeks. i like my farrier. and he is cheaper XD!

i plan on seeing my pony tomorrow and hope on getting better pics. fiance is adamant on waiting for the vet ok at the next appointment to ride her so for once ill listen to him (when ever i dont it seams he is right and i hate that lol). im thinking on playing with target training her. i want to have fun with my horse and watching her go around in circles get boring after a while.


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## KigerQueen

I dont have recent pics but im kinda stuck with something. my mare is hard on her feet and in 4 weeks has ground down her back heals to her heal bulbs. and she has chipped them above the sole level. i might have to put metal shoes back on her to prevent it. she has always moved around alot and she pivots on her backs alot. that's how she ripped off one of her GC last time. i may try them one more time on her backs with a nail in the front. we shall see.


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## KigerQueen

Lord give me patience because if you give me strength i will end up in jail! someone where i moved my horse is convinced my mare is ether faking or its a shoulder issue. she went on saying i need to start working her but bute her every day so she dose not associate work with being sore. then she went on about how at the track they would bute horses every day so they dont get sore and therefore will work and run better. that bute is fine for horses and that you can give it to them daily with no problems... then she said that if she starts acting up when riding that she has copious amounts of ace and that i could ace her like she dose her horse... omg i do not want to ride a drugged up mess! if i have to drug up my horse just to ride her i dont need to be riding her! 

sorry kinda a vent as i got to hear that for the better part of an hour last night. she may be got at rehabilitating track horses but my mare is neither a track horse or dose she have a track horse injury. as i have mentioned in another thread, people in az are very liberal with bute, everyone (including me thought i rarely use it) has bute in their tack room. apparently some are liberal with ace too.

ANYWAY pony has put on quite a bit of weight. she was fantastic yesterday too. FIL was more aggressive with her brake over and she was perfect. no slight gimp and she wanted to work. to her lunging is a bit of a game and she wanted to keep playing. ill be going up there tomorrow and ill get picks of her hooves and what not. my friend and i are also body clipping two ponys and she will be butting this pattern one one of them









since my show is on the 3rd i may body clipp mine as she is just starting to get winter fuzz. its not really noticeable though so im kinda iffy on it. my friend is going to leave the zelda coat of arms on her butt so that will be fun .
here are some pics. i may have to post vid later as my computer is spazzing.


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## Horseychick87

She's looking better weight wise.

Ugh, let's just Bute and Ace every horse then there will never be a problem ever. *Eyeroll* 
I actually had someone ask me if it was legal to give a horse a sedative before a show. When I told her no she got upset because apparently her friends trainer had been drugging the horse before shows. Apparently it was Reserpine, yeah because that won't get you in trouble if they decide to test your horse.

I want to try and do the Pegasus clip myself, but I've got to get better at it.

At least she seems okay even with the more aggressive hoof work. It's too bad that she's having issues with the heels and grinding them down like that though.


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## KigerQueen

it drives me bonkers! dont want metal shoes on her backs but bcause she pivots on them ALL THE TIME (like at least 50 times a day she will turn on her hindquarters by herself in her stall) and that destroys her back hooves. she will grind down metal shoes. she did not grid the GC like she dose metal ones. nope she just rips them all and bends the nails until they fall out of the hoof...

this time she has not really grown at all so he just took her toes off. im getting new shoes though. from 6? months of use they have gotten hard where she bears the most weight and lost alot of their flexibility. i might get the blue ones this time.


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## Horseychick87

It's too bad you can't put clips on the GC, it seems like that would do the trick for keeping them from twisting off.

Are the blue ones thicker?


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## KigerQueen

no they are all the same. i just like blue XD!


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## Horseychick87

Ah, okay.

Negra's heels remind me of another horse I used to ride. He had low slung heels and he did cattle work and would pivot on them a lot. Once he went to a new home it took them about 2 years to get his heels back to normal because he would pivot under saddle if you didn't ask him to make a larger turn. -_-


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## DraftyAiresMum

Horseychick87 said:


> Ugh, let's just Bute and Ace every horse then there will never be a problem ever. *Eyeroll* .


Unfortunately, Kiger is right. Here in AZ, Bute and Ace are a common replacement for actually *gasp* training one's horse.

My best friend used to Ace her OTTB gelding heavily when she'd take her QH mare anywhere because he is RIDICULOUSLY herd-bound. He'll pace and call to the mare even if she's just on the other side of the arena from him (they can't be turned out together because he beats the crap out of her...figure that one out). It got to the point where even the Ace didn't work because he'd basically built up a tolerance to it.


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## KigerQueen

yeah its horrible. heck i could ask any vet for bute and they would just hand it to me. even if i did not have a horse -_-'.


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## KigerQueen

today was fantastic!!! i dont know what i would have done without my friend there! she has been showing for years and played "show mom" for me today. Negra was fantastic. for our first show and going up against 7 paints/qhs she did well. we got 5th our of 8 mares! (she was the only arabian). Im so proud of my pony!!!

Ill post more pics later. they were taken with my big camera and are still in RAW files.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Great job! Can't wait to see the pics!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

Here are my favorite pics from today. she was a pro. she was actually falling asleep lol!


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## Horseychick87

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Unfortunately, Kiger is right. Here in AZ, Bute and Ace are a common replacement for actually *gasp* training one's horse.
> 
> My best friend used to Ace her OTTB gelding heavily when she'd take her QH mare anywhere because he is RIDICULOUSLY herd-bound. He'll pace and call to the mare even if she's just on the other side of the arena from him (they can't be turned out together because he beats the crap out of her...figure that one out). It got to the point where even the Ace didn't work because he'd basically built up a tolerance to it.


 
Yeah, I understand it's just aggravating that the answer out there is to Ace or Bute everything. It seems to me that a vet and farrier worth their salt could do really well out there if they were affordable enough for the majority of owners to use them and the animals would benefit as well.

I have no problem with using Ace on a horse like your friends, especially if it's for the safety of the horse and those around the horse. I see so many horses for sale because they cannot be put in with other horses due to behavior/ aggression, it would be nice to have a long term product available without as many side effects that Ace has.


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## Horseychick87

KigerQueen said:


> Here are my favorite pics from today. she was a pro. she was actually falling asleep lol!


 She looks great, and congratulations!


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## KigerQueen

thank you!

took her for an hour walk on the trails yesterday. she was quite happy and was enjoying out stormy cool weather. did NOT want to go back to the barn lol!


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## KigerQueen

so im thinking of bumping up my vet appointment to this month, i would love to start riding my mare again and she is having more good days than bad. im hopefull.


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## KigerQueen

and shes a gimp again -_-' so i will give up on thinking of rideing her -_-'.


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## SlideStop

KigerQueen said:


> and shes a gimp again -_-' so i will give up on thinking of rideing her -_-'.


Ups and downs happen. My mare is just coming off a "down" streke. I was very discouraged as what I have been doing has been working so well. Just give her time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

its been a year and i still have a lame horse. she has better days but i am starting to think she may never be sound enough to ride. and she hates going out for walk only rides and IF she was ridable she would likly be walk only sound.

here is the vid i took yesterday. she was hyper as heck. acting like someone gave her horsie crack. but you can see she is off.

https://youtu.be/eU4v-WEIyMo


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## Yogiwick

Do get the vet out now so you can do the blocks while she's lame


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## Horseychick87

That suck's that she came up gimpy again, but as Yogi said, see about doing the blocks now if you can. Hopefully something will give an she'll be able to go normally.


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## KigerQueen

i would but i have $50 to my name after getting gas for the next 4 days and board. ill have to talk to my fil. its being confined to a stall for the better part of the week i think. she only got out for an hour on monday then an hour the thursday. Ill talk to my FIL as he insisted on paying the next set of xrays. i think the earliest we could do is november. but since im losing my job in december i need to save up so the least amount i can spend on anything the better. hence why im not going out to see her as many days a week as i would like. i go through a entire tank of gas every 4-5 days.


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## SlideStop

KigerQueen said:


> its been a year and i still have a lame horse. she has better days but i am starting to think she may never be sound enough to ride. and she hates going out for walk only rides and IF she was ridable she would likly be walk only sound.
> 
> here is the vid i took yesterday. she was hyper as heck. acting like someone gave her horsie crack. but you can see she is off.
> 
> https://youtu.be/eU4v-WEIyMo


This is how I feel about my mare with navicular... She will tell me when she is in pain. When I ride her in the ring or take her on trail and she isn't her normal, forward-loving, self I get off. But, 90% of the time she is leading the trail with two other Tennessee walkers behind her (and boy do they walk fast!). In the ring she is willing to go forward, and you can just feel her willingness. The other 10% of the time I just know something isn't right so I don't ride her or I hand walk her around the block 1-2 miles. 

Our horses living situations are probably very similar. My horse only has a small turnout, on Long Island we just don't have land for pasture. And since I cannot afford $850 + a month my horse has to sacrifice on turn out space. To me the risks outweighs the benefits of riding her, especially for her mental well being!

I'd say ride her, even if it's just walk only on short trail rides. Just listen to her, she will tell you what she can and cannot handle!


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## KigerQueen

the thing is if she is not sound enough to walk around on her own my chubby butt has no business riding her. and she is back to being stalled 24/7. her stall is the size of a small run but its not big enough. il thinking of moving her as i just cant afford it where she is at but i dont want her half starved again.

im also frustrated because she has not been sound enough to ride for about a year now. i have not been able to ride my own horse for a year. and at this rate its not likely i will. and i can only ride my fiance's 30 year old tb in the tiney arena where he keeps his horses (like 20ft by 55-60ft. its tiny) so that gets old really fast too.


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## evilamc

KigerQueen said:


> i would but i have $50 to my name after getting gas for the next 4 days and board. ill have to talk to my fil. its being confined to a stall for the better part of the week i think. she only got out for an hour on monday then an hour the thursday. Ill talk to my FIL as he insisted on paying the next set of xrays. i think the earliest we could do is november. but since im losing my job in december i need to save up so the least amount i can spend on anything the better. hence why im not going out to see her as many days a week as i would like. i go through a entire tank of gas every 4-5 days.


Aren't you a dog groomer? I can't imagine losing a dog groomer right around the holidays thats crazy. You need to find a small shop to work for, I just moved to Ohio where cost of living is WAY cheaper than where I was in DC...I can be lazy and only do 4-5 dogs a day and still make $100+ a day on commission. If I don't want to be lazy I can do like 8-12 dogs. You def need to find a better shop to work for!!

That stinks about not being able to ride her though  I go bat s*** crazy if I can't ride for a whole week or two, I can't imagine a year  Too bad she can't fit into some type of therapy program working with kids on the ground or something? Then you could find her a great little retirement home and maybe get a horse you could ride.


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## KigerQueen

im a bather. my boss would not send me to groom school because he knew i was going on this vacation. so i dont know how to do dog hair cutts.

I have thought about contacting horses's help (they are right down the street) and seeing if they could use her. My worry is that they would change shoes and do backwards shoes and mess her up by jacking up her heels (like every other navicular horse in the state i have met). so im kinda stuck. 

I may b moving her to my sil for a cuple of months though. i would only have to pay feed. but she would be in a 14x16 stall 24/7 with no shade so il try my best to limit the time she is stuck there.


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## evilamc

Ah, I'd still call around other shops and even vet offices. Maybe you can gets job at a better shop and they'll actually teach you to groom too. The schools are a waste of money in my opinion, learning under a good nationally/internationally certified groomer is the way to go! We pretty much always needed a bather so you may be surprised the demand for a bather even at some other shops!

Maybe if you contacted the place you could make it in the contract your fil continues her foot care and you could be there when he does them? Then you can make sure she continues on the right track with that!


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## KigerQueen

well after vacation im going to get my class a CDL and drive semi with my fiance. if we can pull in 6k a week we can buy property up north and we will be set. i only plann on driving for a year (enough to afford our initial horse set up) and then man the ship while he is out driving. 60-70 acres. huge pastures and nice arena and a large (like 3 lane rode wide) firebreak/track around the property i can work and drive the horses on. it will be fantastic 

BUT have to work on short term goals first lol. like what im doing with her after next month.


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## Horseychick87

My uncle did long haul driving, now he works for the US mail service and does just fine doing short routes. 
You can also look into FedEx or UPS as they pay well for local delivery drivers if you think you might need something sooner they tend to hire extra drivers around the holidays if you need some spare cash. (A heads up, if you decide you don't want to drive and you have a FedEx or UPS warehouse nearby, you can make $24 + an hour (at least you can here anyways) just sorting packages inside in the A/C. And here you can go 'Union' as well and get more benefits.)

Hopefully you'll be able to find a good compromise for Negra until you can get your property. 
After everything you've told me about your local farriers and vets I'd be looking really hard at any therapy place before letting her go to them, just to be sure they took proper care of the horses.


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## SlideStop

Horseychick87 said:


> My uncle did long haul driving, now he works for the US mail service and does just fine doing short routes.
> You can also look into FedEx or UPS as they pay well for local delivery drivers if you think you might need something sooner they tend to hire extra drivers around the holidays if you need some spare cash. (A heads up, if you decide you don't want to drive and you have a FedEx or UPS warehouse nearby, you can make $24 + an hour (at least you can here anyways) just sorting packages inside in the A/C. And here you can go 'Union' as well and get more benefits.)
> 
> Hopefully you'll be able to find a good compromise for Negra until you can get your property.
> After everything you've told me about your local farriers and vets I'd be looking really hard at any therapy place before letting her go to them, just to be sure they took proper care of the horses.


My mother works for UPS. She was a delivery driver for 17 years. After 17 year she finally had enough seniority to get a CLD license so she now drivers trailers. 

Pros: she managed to raise two kids and buy a condo. Good benefits and competitive pay. 

Cons: they will work you to the BONE. They really don't give a crap about their employees. The hours are long (my mom worked 10-14 hour days Monday-Friday).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

we will be over the road. so long hall huge semis. we will team drive and y law we can only drive 11 hours at a time and the truck can move a maximum of 23 hours a day we will be gone for about 14 days at a time with 4 days of then another 14 days out. it will suck. i will hate it but 6k a week for 1 year will buy us a property, a small cabin house and a horse set up. then he can do it for another year or two. after then he can become instate driver and be home almost every night.

it will be worth it in the long run. and then negra can retire with our 30 year old tb in a nice large pasture and heated barn. she and rocket will be spoiled and live happily ever after lol.


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## Horseychick87

SlideStop said:


> My mother works for UPS. She was a delivery driver for 17 years. After 17 year she finally had enough seniority to get a CLD license so she now drivers trailers.
> 
> Pros: she managed to raise two kids and buy a condo. Good benefits and competitive pay.
> 
> Cons: they will work you to the BONE. They really don't give a crap about their employees. The hours are long (my mom worked 10-14 hour days Monday-Friday).
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 I have heard that FedEx does treat it's employee's better than UPS does as a general rule of thumb. But I've also had many friends that worked the UPS warehouse and said it was good hours and they were treated well.

I'm sorry your mom had to go through that, it's never easy when you have to work long hours like that.


Kiger, good luck with the long haul driving, it can be both fun and tedious all at the same time. But like you say the pay can be worth it in the long run.


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## KigerQueen

So bo barated me today saying my horse was too skinny and that i need to buy supplemental feed. So that will bring me over 300 a month... Why im i payong you 280 a month if i still have to buy feed? And no need to barate me infront of other boarders. My mare is not skinny. I cant see her ribs at all. I cant see her hipbones sticking out. She has a good topline. She needs like 20 maybe 30lbs max. And he is not getting worked so she dos not look in shape. All the other horses there are overweight. I cant let her get fat with her feet issues.

She also tried saying i was behind on mu board when i payed her the first half last week. I payed her 20 less fully expecting to add it to next payment. Was never told that would be an issue but aparently it was. Its minor bs but bs all the same. She wont soak her feed and it caused her to colic for the first time in the 5 years i have had her.

She is insistant that my mare dose not need a barrel and that she will figure the auto water out. She has not and my mare attacked her bucket when i put it back and filled it. She was trying to push past me to drink and did not wait for it to finish filling to drink.


So im going to move her. Possibly to a self care place down the street to where our other horses are. Ill pay 100 a month and they feed mu feed. So i can spend 100 a month in feed and still pay less that where im at now.


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## KigerQueen

Dose this horse look skinny? Like im kicking you out skinny?


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## greentree

N.O.

I am so sorry you are having to deal with this. Geez.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Everyone has a different idea of what "good" looks like. My old gelding's owners were appalled at how "skinny" he was when he was actually working fit and they had him severely overweight, which caused issues with his arthritis. When they took him back, they went right back to stuffing him with feed and he went right back to being a little roly-poly and now he's pretty much only pasture sound because of it.


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## natisha

She hasn't been there that long so how much weight does she expect her to gain? 
Does she want the extra $20 for additional hay?
It's too bad you're moving her again because honestly she looks better while there than she has anywhere else. By better I mean in her movement & especially her stance. She looks happier too.


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## greentree

Maybe you could get a veterinarian's note that "prescribes" her weight for her health and soundness. Just something that came to me.....


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## KigerQueen

no she is getting gimpyer by the day sadly. yesterday i had to stop her from playing in the round pen because she gimped so bad. with where she is now i can only get her out 2-3 times a week. and recently people have been using all the turnouts so i have not been able to turn her out. her hot walker kicked it so cant use that either.

No she doesn't want the $20 but she expects me to buy extra feed for her to feed her. so if feed prices go up i may end up paying more. all the horses there (including her stud) are fat. as in IR looking fat deposits. 

the last cuple of weeks i have felt less welcomed. i think its because the lady who told me to bute my horse daily is buddy buddy with her. sorry i will not work my horse and give her 2 grams of bute daily until she is "better". that me be how tendon injuries and old fractures work but not navicular. 

I love it there but i have learnt to recognize the early signs of massive bs and its starting. first with the blo swearing i was behind on board and i had to repeatedly tell her WHEN i moved in before she realized i was not behind. that worries me. she would not do a boarding contract so that makes me uncomfortable as heck. and with how she berated me in front of other boarders was rude and unnecessary. she has my number she has in the past and can text me. i said good morning and she said "you need to supplement your mare, i only feed enough to keep them where they are at and i will not have a skinny horse on my property" (insert storming off here). myfiance where kinda standing there like umm good morning to you too?




there is a place i boarded at in 2011 shortly after i got my mare. the place dose not look fantastic but for $100 a month i get a nice stall and bo feeds my feed for me. so i can spend as much in food as i want and still be saving 100 a month. and she will be right down the road of where we board our other horses, so if the arenas or grazing area (its smaller then a round pen but its something) are occupied i can walk over to my old place and turn her out with the old gelding of ours. and considering its closer i can see her almost every day a week.

Im keeping my eyes open for something better but considering come the second week of december i will be jobless for who knows how long i need to save money.


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## Yogiwick

If you have 2 months notice I assume you're looking for another job/have a plan put into motion?

I'm concerned about how often she's been moving. She does look better than she has and the moving will just stress her more than she already is.

No way to compromise?


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## Horseychick87

Her weight is fine right now, sure she could gain another 20 pounds like you said, but in the grand scheme of things it's not going to make that big of a difference.

It's a shame you can find some small piece of land to rent for cheap close to your house so you could just do DIY board on your own and now have to worry about a BO who either won't feed or gets their panties in a twist because the horse isn't gaining weight fast enough for their taste.

It does however sound like you might have a solution with that other barn.


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## KigerQueen

wish i could reach a solution but one main issue is the cost. another i have already stated and i will not have someone lock my horse up over her thinking im behind. 

im hoping this will be the last move for a while. i hate moving but i have have been at a place for 1 month and 1 week and bo tries telling me im behind on board im concerned. i have been there less than 2 months and she is pulling bs. no thank you it rarely gets better.

I plan on sinking money into the stall to make it negra proof and be able to hold shavings/grindings better. she will always have a full barrel of water too. BO took that away yesterday and im beyond ****ed i had to fill her auto waterer for her to drink it and she sucked that water up. its really hard to push that auto waterer to give water and its harder then my mare will push. she will end up going a few days without water... and that worried me the most.


sadly for me i live in the heart of glendale so no land near me. im smack dab in the middle of the metro area.


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## KigerQueen

here is a vid from yesterday. was not making her move. she was insistent on trotting. ended up putting her back on the lunge line just to MAKE her walk. very much still gimpy. i kept changing her directions hoping she would cool her jets but that did not work. she looks like she is half gaited .

https://youtu.be/pYDHZsM3CtM


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## Horseychick87

Yeah, maybe she's just having an off few weeks, hopefully that's all it is anyways.

Oh heck no, nobody takes water away from my animals. I'm usually quiet when it comes to myself, but never, ever mess with my animals food or water. That brings out a whole other side of me that people do not like to see.

Do you know anybody at that barn you can trust to make sure she has water when you can't be there?

Ah, metro areas can be difficult. I'm just on the 'outskirts' but still in town myself. Oddly enough even though I have less than a quarter acre of property I'm zoned agriculture and can have livestock, go figure.


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## KigerQueen

yeah this was all within a week period (well the last two anyway) so im done. been there less than 2 months and its already starting. she is also putting two horses to a stall and its a but too small for 2 horses to a stall. i can understand the weanling and the almost yearling but not to middle aged geldings next to a stud like that. 

and sadly i dont know anyone. anyone who is under $300 a month and has room. BUT if i move her where i want to my good friend lives up the street and while im gone i could ask her to walk down and check on her. maybe even turn her out for a bit.


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## Saddlebag

That sand your mare lives in. I can see how it rasps her heels down when she does those turns.


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## Horseychick87

Around here you won't find anything under $375 for full care. You can get DIY care for about $275-$300, but that's fairly low and you'd have to compromise on some things like stall size or possibly fencing.

I'm actually looking at a place about 15 minutes away from my house, it has six stalls and three acres for $350 a month...you get everything, all six stalls and pastures for your own use. It would be beyond worth it if I wind up with even two horses. For one horse I'll try to find a small private farm nearby if I can.

It's always nice when you have friends nearby that can help you out.
I'm the 'go-to' girl for family and friends that need their animals or homes looked after, it makes me feel good to do something nice for them, no money required.

When do you think you'll be able to move?


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## DraftyAiresMum

Move up here!! I pay $185 a month for full care turnout board and my BO is AMAZING! Even the full indoor/outdoor barn stalls are only $275. And the BO likes her horses a little on the chunky side, but if you don't, she'll feed accordingly. For example, I told her that I don't want Aires fat, so she cut back his alfalfa and upped his bermuda. 

:loveshower:


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## KigerQueen

yep and she pivots like that all the time. it drives me bonkers! and by all the time i mean in her stall too. once she gets moved i can add shavings to help prevent that. i want to avoid metal shoes on her backs but she has been ripping the GC off her back feet within 2 weeks.


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## KigerQueen

lol id love too but cant at the moment. took me over a year to find a job at petsmart. and where im moving too is not full care. i dont care honestly. i just need them to feed for me whether they provide it or i do. I plan on moving her end of this month.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> yep and she pivots like that all the time. it drives me bonkers! and by all the time i mean in her stall too. once she gets moved i can add shavings to help prevent that. i want to avoid metal shoes on her backs but she has been ripping the GC off her back feet within 2 weeks.


That tells me her problem is in her back end. That & the way she sometimes canters.


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## Yogiwick

Horseychick87 said:


> Around here you won't find anything under $375 for full care. You can get DIY care for about $275-$300, but that's fairly low and you'd have to compromise on some things like stall size or possibly fencing.
> 
> I'm actually looking at a place about 15 minutes away from my house, it has six stalls and three acres for $350 a month...you get everything, all six stalls and pastures for your own use. It would be beyond worth it if I wind up with even two horses. For one horse I'll try to find a small private farm nearby if I can.
> 
> It's always nice when you have friends nearby that can help you out.
> I'm the 'go-to' girl for family and friends that need their animals or homes looked after, it makes me feel good to do something nice for them, no money required.
> 
> When do you think you'll be able to move?


I'll take a couple stalls!


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## KigerQueen

i know she has back end issues. she has a SI joint injury from before i had her. hence why she bunny hops instead of canters. I can tell you that is NOT a fun thing to ride either. Another reason why i dont think i would be able to ride her again. to many minor issues compiling at once for her. if you look at her back end you can see the massive hunters bump she has.


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## Horseychick87

Yogiwick said:


> I'll take a couple stalls!


 IKR! If you break it down that's less than $60 a month for each stall and pasture! I can handle that any day of the week. I do wish there was more pasture though, but I can deal with it at that price.


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## Saddlebag

I'm in Canada. Too far away. I love arabs. If she overwintered here she'd go home with lots of weight on her. And she'd quit grinding those heels down. Pretty hard to do when there's lots of snow. She's have two boy friends. Now how can you deny a gal that!.


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## KigerQueen

Lol i would love to let her winter with you. Sadly that would cost alot more than. I could afford. The place i was looking at is full so i might have to go back to where i was boarding before and spend more on feed. At least untill after im done showinng. Then she still might go to my sister in laws. 

Lastnight it was a bit chilly and it has been rainy soni put a rain sheet on her. I also got my sleazy in the mail andnhad to torment uer with that! Oh i had too much fin with that. She wont be wereing it overnight for a while though. Not cold enough yet. 

She was feeling good today though. Ill post the vid later.


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## KigerQueen

here is a vid of the spazz!
https://youtu.be/QLA3HPf0UUU


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## Saddlebag

Just to taunt you, in a playful way - I'd need $125 mo. which works out to about $100 US with our devalued dollar. She'd have room to run and two boys to boss around.


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## KigerQueen

oh so mean! lol! it would cost me thousands just to gether to you sadly so she will have to stay in this dreadful state (seriously it just can't make up its mind. cool in the evening then back in the 80s in the morning). Very tempting though!


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## SlideStop

Saddlebag said:


> Just to taunt you, in a playful way - I'd need $125 mo. which works out to about $100 US with our devalued dollar. She'd have room to run and two boys to boss around.


If SaddleBag is serious this may be a really good option for her. Why keep her 1. Where you are having a hard time affording her, and 2. Where her living conditions are less then ideal regarding space/turnout. . Moving to a place like SaddleBag's would allow her to live like a horse again! Don't you think she deserves it? Do you plan on using her again? What is the "purpose" of keeping her close to you? Plus, in the long run it will SAVE you money. Yeah, the trailer isn't going to be cheap, but with your board bill reduced my 1/2-2/3 it will quickly pay for itself. $300 a month X 12 months is $3,600 a year. At SB's $125 a month X 12 months would be &1,500. With in the first year, maybe year and a half, the savings should cover the cost of the trailer. 

PS, I'm not trying to be mean or rude. Just thinking of things realistically. With my mare having the same problem this is stuff in always thinking about. I actually have a place lined up when I do decide my mare is no longer able to work. Not fair to keep her on this tiny island and not fair to my wallet to be paying top dollar for a horse who isn't "earning their keep".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

Honestly the main reason im keeping her close is i have been burned too many times and im afrade to move her far away again. I thought i moved her to the perfectly place. Now im s till putting weight on her from that and thats from someone i have known for longer than i have had my horse. if i cant go out and see her i cant moniter her care and thats important. I could not get out for 1 week when she was et min away and you saw how well that turned out. Im kinda gun shy about it. Trust me im still looking for the perfect place to keep her but in az thats hard (aparently).


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## Saddlebag

Kiger, don't let anyone try to guilt you into anything. She's your precious girl and I can certainly understand your apprehension. I wish I'd had pics of my arab when I bo't him, big worm belly, ribby, no top line, hooves that were so long they'd broken like long shards of glass. In 3 months he was completely changed, to how he should look. If anyone would consult a map, Kiger's drive would involve three days on the road each way plus meal and accommodation costs.


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## SlideStop

Sorry, I certainly not trying to guilt you into anything, but from an outsiders prospective it seems like a very logical choice. Maybe not quite moving her 3 days drive away (didn't realize you were so far SB!), but somewhere that's day trip-able. The barn I'm looking at for my horse is 2.5-3 hours drive, depending on NYC traffic. When she was at the other barn in PA I'd leave at 6am get there around 9am spend a few hours, make sure everything was hunky dory, groom her really well, ride, clean off her blankets, etc. I be back of the road by 12-1 and home befor rush hour! Don't her my wrong, it was a long day so I always brought a friend, but the more I started to trust the woman the less I had to go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

The only place like that here is 80 miles away and cost over 300 a month. We are moveing her back to where our other horses are for now. Im not going to move her again for a while as i always seam to end back up where i started. Ill wait untill i have property i guess.


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## DraftyAiresMum

KigerQueen said:


> The only place like that here is 80 miles away and cost over 300 a month. We are moveing her back to where our other horses are for now. Im not going to move her again for a while as i always seam to end back up where i started. Ill wait untill i have property i guess.


Kiger, I'm about 90 miles north of you. My barn is amazing and my BO is awesome. There's a nice arena, round training arena, round pen, and turnouts. The BO will feed what you want, but if it's grain/supplements or pellets, you have to provide it. She feeds three times per day. She'll blanket, fly mask and do turnout for you. Prices top out at $275 for an indoor/outdoor barn stall, less for pipe stalls and turnout board. Stalls are cleaned daily and the BO lives on site (only time she's gone is if she's running errands or picking her kids up from school). Negra could get used to the colder winters, too. We don't get as cold as Heber, but taking an Arab who has lived in the Valley all its life and tossing it into the winters up in Heber without a transition will be REALLY hard on her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

agreed. (before any horse will winter in heber there will be a nice warm barn first!). i will look into it Drafty! it wont happen right away as i dont have that much and i know this BO. i can own him board for a month or two IF huge IF it comes to that. but he is cheaper and im thinking i might be able to pay up to 3-5 months of board before i go on vacation. i can still supplement feed as well. i will look into it next winter if we are driving truck by them. if i move her i'll plan on moving the old man (30 year old tb) an Odie (8 year old paint who is a hard keeper) with her. i REALLY like the blanketing part lol! old man and negra will need it once we move them. i dont know about odie. he is younger and tends to grow a winter coat unlike rocket.


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## natisha

Horses do better moving from hot to cold areas than the other way around.


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## KigerQueen

agreed. but odie has never seen snow or frost in his entire 8 years of life (or pasture for that matter). so it might take him a winter to adjust. and rocket is 30. he is getting over 50-60 lbs of food a day just to keep him looking half decent. he will be blanketed or he will break the bank food wise.


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## KigerQueen

Well today sucks. Drafty dose your place have any openings?


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## DraftyAiresMum

I think we do. I can ask my BO if you want. 

You can look up Santori Ranch on FB to see pics of the place. It's awesome!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## greentree

You OK, Kiger??


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## KigerQueen

nope. im having a REALLY bad cuple of weeks and im about to put my head (or someone else) though a wall. My FIL's mustang pees alot and almost lives in the dry out stall. SOMEONE is complaining to the guy where we board (the place i was going to move my mare back too) and he took it out on us. suddenly he has no room and i cant move my horse back. he also tried to make my fiance move the horse. he put his foot down and said its not my horse, i dont pay for it talk to my dad if there is an issue. it was an all round bad day. so looks like my mare is going to live in tonopah (about an hour + away) so i might see her once a month at most until i can figure something out. im looking at buying a cuple of panels otherwise she will be in a 12 x12 stall with no shade for months. its a mess. i hate boarding and my stress levels are at the point i might blow a blood vessel.

The bo (lets call him G) Was rude about it too. suddenly he needed all 3 extra stalls for dry out and horses that were supposed to move (there where no horses moving me, my fiance and our ex cop friend who was there knew that). Fiance is ****ed because he has done soo much for G. digging up 20 ft of busted water pipe and fixing it for $20. being called out at 4am for busted pipes, lose or sick horses, fixing fencing, stalls and the arena. you name it and he has done it for G. and now suddenly he is being that way? all because a mustang pees alot. its rough board, he just throws maybe 5lbs of hay at the horses a day. he dose not set foot in any stalls. he dose not have to clean it and frankly he has never cared up untill now. so yeah that set me off. now i will have NO money saved up for when i leave. might have to cut showing this year short and move her early.

My SIL is letting me just pay for feed for my horse and keep her there so thats a good deal i guess. i just wont get to see my horse until i find a new place to board her.

sorry if im rambling. kinda out of it. too stressed and more things are piling on top of my plate than i can handle and sadly there is no way out of it or to deal with it.


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## greentree

People are crazy. Horses gotta go where horses gotta go....geez.


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## Horseychick87

Seriously, the horse has got to pee somewhere! What a wonderful way for the BO to treat your bf after all the work he's done. I'm sorry you're having to go through all of this.


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## KigerQueen

Well things come in 3s. My clutch on my poor bakota whent out in the middle of driving today. Atarted screaming and smelt like burning. I know it was going to need replaced but it has bad timing. I have to wait a week for a new one to come in. It might last me a week getting ro work. My fiance might be driving me to work for the next week as that truck wont let me float my gears. Ugh i need a vacation! Luckily i have one comeing up in december so.


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## Horseychick87

Wow, that sucks. Hopefully now you'll catch a break though.


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## KigerQueen

So thanks to my truck being down i only got to see pony for maybe an hour this week. saw her last night an she was off in her back end. she is known to have locking patella in her back left but that's not what was going on last night. it was almost like she was not stable on her back end. Fiance thinks she was just stiff from being in a stall for a week. not entirely convinced. im making him check on her before he gets me from work today.

I wont be able to see her until wednesday evening and i'm worried about her. Nothing i can do though.


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## Horseychick87

Poor girl, I hope it's nothing too serious.


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## KigerQueen

No brakes for me! truck will be down for a while as my mechanic is recovering from a foot issue. and once he puts in the new clutch HE needs to brake it in. Also the upper control arm on my fiances 89 Dodge cummins decided it wanted to take a nap... So that snapped and is getting replaced. so now my transportation options are REALLY limited ha. we are using FIL's truck so we can run around and get parts tomorrow. then we are going to the trucking school to fill out a few things. AND its getting too cold to bath that dirt ball i call a horse so she is going to live in her rain sheet (and possibly sleazy) for the rest of the winter once i manage to get that mud out. 

And to top it all off i have an issue going on with my fish in my 90 gal tank (that's my pride and joy right there. my other money hungry hobby).

I might need a drink lol!


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## Horseychick87

Sounds like you do need a drink, and a vacation ;-)

Hopefully everything gets fixed up quickly.

How cold is it getting there? Here it's still in the high 80's to low 90's during the day but drops to between 60 to 50 at night. 
Maybe you could do a hot towel bath on her if it's too cold or windy?

I love looking at fish, but I can't bring myself to buy any. I used to have the basic goldfish, I named my first one Killer since my mom wouldn't let me name my dog that, haha. But now I have an expensive cat, so yeah...no extra house pets for me right now.

Maybe this is the storm passing over and you'll soon have calm skies headed your way.


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## KigerQueen

its already starting to drop down into the 40s. and its raining like crazy so i think its going to be colder than projected. so pony is bundled up. she has a winter coat but the sudden drop is what im more concerned about. tomorrow morning ill pull the warmer blanket and leave the rain "slicker" blanket and sleazy. its already snowed 4-6 inches in flagstaff and heber and Crown King are snowing. its going to be a cold winter.

Won't see pony until the day before our show next week. someone tried to break into my 9 year old niece's room again and left a note saying "Give me what i want or i will kill your family". poor idiot had no idea he has tangled with a family of gun happy italians (and one ornery german indian irish girl). so we shall be spending a cuple of nights there.


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## KigerQueen

Well today sucked. Bo was ****y because i did not pay board "ontime" (someone NEVER told me the rules or DEADLINES for things like board). Funny thing is that i texted her the 4th (2 days earlier than i can normally pay) that i would try to get board to her that that day but might be miss her because the clutch on my truck was done (and apparently all the bolts in my shifter where missing or almost out as well). never got a response. was there friday and she had another boarder feeding but was not there. Then she flipped out because im going to a show tomorrow. apparently i should be able to afford board (all 280) at once (event though BEFORE i moved her there i told her i could ONLY be able to do board in 2 payments) if i can afford to show. umm my class costs $8 plus a $5 arena fee and im hitching a ride... She then said i could have given it to the girl feeding. umm yeah im totally going to give my money to another boarder that i dont know. because THAT sounds like a good idea! 
My mare had a huge lump on her belly (well 2 but they are so close they might as well be one) that no one seamed to care about. they where more concerned about the fact my mare got tangled in her blanket 2 days ago (I bet that would not have happened if i did not fallow someones advice and cross he leg straps). So my light sheet is destroyed and now she went from blanketed to blankets. considering how BO is acting as of now i dont want to use anything of hers. AND to top it ALL off im missing at least $60 from my past two checks and i cant long into I Pay to find out why im missing so much money.


Im sorry for the vent but i just dealt with a family emergency for the past cuple of days, got sick from the well water, did not sleep waiting for my 10 year old nice's stalker to try and brake in again, and build a fence late into the night. This may all be trivial things but they are stacking up and i feel at the end of my rope.


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## natisha

I've never understood the need to make 2 payments a month. If you get paid every 2 weeks you simply put 1/2 the board aside from one check then add it to the next paycheck & pay it all at once. That would solve one problem for you.
I had a boarder who wanted to do the 2 week thing. Each week got later & later until she owed $260 & I kicked her out never to see that money that I knew she'd never pay anyway. I should have known what was going to happen when the first day of boarding here she "forgot" to bring board money-for 3 weeks.


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## KigerQueen

i get payed weekly. i work only part time so i dont make enough in 1 paycheck to pay all of board. i might make enough in 2 but i lose about $30-$40 a week in gas alone. I CAN pay board every month, just not all at once. She was ok with this and we discussed it before my horse ever set foot on the property. she said two payments. last time i gave her more in one payment then the next she said i was behind. so thats why i will only pay exactly half each time (and that was also agreed on) And its incredibly hard to pay someone when they are not there and there is no drop box of any kind. I will NOT give board to another boarder either (as she suggested). I texted her when i had the money and was looking for her. did not hear back from her until i was over 2 hours away and had looked for her a cuple of times. she knew i had the money and that i was leaving town for a cuple of days on a family emergency. More importantly that i had had her money and was actively trying to pay her in the first place.

According to a few people who used to board with her this is a normal thing with her. she can be incredibly nice and then freak out at you for no reason. that's just her.


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## Horseychick87

I knew a BO who would wait until I believe it was the third week of each month to collect board. However you had to give a check at the first of the month with the full amount and she'd wait to cash it until the third week. It seemed really odd, but she never missed a board payment either so I guess it worked for her.

I'm used to paying up at the first of the month, working part time I had to figure out what I could and couldn't buy and if I needed it when I could buy it. Bills are wonderful things *eyeroll* I don't miss that part of ownership right now, LOL.

I hope everything is okay with your niece, it's scary to go through something like that. It's a good thing the family has her back in this.

Hopefully with the holidays coming up something will work out for you, and I hope your show goes well.


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## KigerQueen

the show went. it was an apha judge and he not only allowed minis to show in out classes (they have their own so idk WHY they had to show in ours) but he nearly walked past both my friend in the gelding class and me and my mare in our class. He did ask to see my mare's teeth though. idk why he only asked us but she was a champ and just stood there while i showed him her teeth. The mini placed higher than us (is was also a pinto) and we placed last. what ever thats showing. Now that im out of the running for high point im not bringing her to the last show and will be moving her the end of the month.


she is getting her feet done today so she will be due again while im gone out of the US. She may have to get done a week early or 2 late (ill fight for a week early).


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## Horseychick87

Good pictures. 

Yeah if they had a separate class for the mini's then they shouldn't have allowed them into your class, unless it was open breed/ age related. Either way Negra looked good, even with her boo boo.

I hope your travels go well, I'm stressing about travelling myself. I'm planning a trip to Australia in the future and the cost is sending me into small panic attacks, LOL.


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## KigerQueen

Guy harassing my SIL and my nice let another threatening note. Soooo yeah there is that. Im worried for them and now my horse who will be moving up there... So there is that. IF things go well there though we may move our other horses up there as well and just pay feed. thats something to look forward too!


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## Horseychick87

Only having to pay for feed is great if it works out. 

Have the police been called about the note? I've been stalked before and you definitely want any evidence to be on file in case something happens one way or another.


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## KigerQueen

Yep. they have copies of the notes and have been called out with each brake in attempt too. so about 4-5 times now. and they are just making reports...


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## KigerQueen

So pony has been moved to my SIL's. Old BO got my pony a wee bit chunky and its already causing foot problems for her. she is somewhat standing under herself again. soo the past 10 or so months of trying to fix that are almost moot. so pony needs to lose just a tad bit or fat and she should be good. i hope anyway. 

She instantly got along with my SIL's mare. its probably got more to so with her being in heat and trying to get anything to mount her (not kidding she spend 30 min squirting at the other mare). she seams to be settling in quite well. if this works out well we will be helping build more permanent stalls and moving our other horses up there.

anyway i got some pics. you can see how she chunked out.


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## KigerQueen

So day befor yesterday i hoped on negra. Besides being a little fired up she did good. Tossed her head (her waybof saying something hurts) when i asked her to turn but was otherwise fine. No lameness today or yesterday so thats good. Im seriously questioning if she has navicular at all. She is still slightly off on that one foot but the level of lameness in the foot had not changed at all or seams to bother her so there is that. Dont know what to n do with her to be honest. She will never be a slow plot along pony. If thats all she isnsound for i wont ride her as it kills her to just slowly plot on down the trail. Anyway here are pics of the fatty. 
She apears to be standing normal so thats good. Still baffled. I may hop on her again this week. If the pen next to her is dry that is.


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## JCnGrace

I don't think she's fat, looks just about perfect weight wise to me.


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## KigerQueen

I was wanti g her slightly on the leaner side for her fert but she dose not seam botherd so i think she is good lol. Everyone is calling her fat and says she needs to lose 20lbs. I think she is fine. Dose not stop me from picking on her lol.


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## natisha

She looks good.
As for her having navicular, well, you know what my vet said after he saw her X-rays & read her history.


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## SlideStop

Just curious, what did your vet say Natisha?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

Her angles are better now. Ill try to take pics this week though she is kinda a mud pony. And it will be a long time before i can get a vet out. Parents car, my truck and my fancies truck went down (some luck huh) so i have not been able to get my job back if i can ( friend and my cat died within 5 days of each other so i missed days during my two weeks). So vet viset is far off. My fil was going to get more xrays but the union is striking. I sware if its not one thing its another ��


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> Her angles are better now. Ill try to take pics this week though she is kinda a mud pony. And it will be a long time before i can get a vet out. Parents car, my truck and my fancies truck went down (some luck huh) so i have not been able to get my job back if i can ( friend and my cat died within 5 days of each other so i missed days during my two weeks). So vet viset is far off. My fil was going to get more xrays but the union is striking. I sware if its not one thing its another ��


I know money is tight for you right now but have you ever had her stifles checked out? Her stifle in the close up picture looks oddly enlarged.


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## KigerQueen

Never had a stifle issue. Worst issue she ever had was after she kicked a fence she had locking stifle for a week but thats it. And that was 2011. The lump you are seeing there is fat lol. She is a shape but not in shape. That is 60% muscle and 40% flab lol. Mare jiggles as she moves. She is a good weight but she needs work. That is esier said than done.


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## KigerQueen

Got some crapy hoof shots and a quick vid.
https://youtu.be/Ci9QfggGuIk


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## Horseychick87

I like her weight, not too thin, and not too fat either.

Her hoof angles do appear better (I have to go back and compare them, it's been a while, LOL.)

She looks happy where she's at now so that's good.


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## KigerQueen

yeah and she has gotten sassy. but if its not one thing... the past week a Kit fox in the area (first time anyone has seen one in over 3 years) has been harassing the dogs. well it started acting friendly though the fence at the kids. tonight its hiding under the truck hissing at everyone. sooo we are looking at shooting a possibly rabid fox. and i have slacked on negras rabies (since rabies is only in the northern part of the state according to vets/drs -_-'.) sooooo guess im borrowing money this week to FIX that issue ASAP. im normally good on vax but people out here vax 2 times a year a crap ton of shots. unless im at a huge show barn i dont see a point in all of them (strangles, flu and west nile are the ones i consistently give). soooo yeah. 3 vehicles down, one limping along and now a rabid fox. AND all my favorite actors/singers are dropping dead. not liking 2016 so far...


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## Yogiwick

Rabies isn't worth playing around with. Around here at least the vaccine is dirt cheap. Doubt it's too much more, though pain to have to get the vet out (unless you can do it yourself there)

As far as the fox the poor thing just sounds scared to me. You can usually tell if they are sick. If you really do think it's rabid you need to call the police and have them dispatch it. They will need to remove the head and send it in for testing. Don't just shoot it yourself.


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## KigerQueen

the area dose not have police that will do much (and it takes almost 45 to an hour for them to get there to begin with). yes we give shots ourselves so that can be done. she had the shot about 4 years ago, i think it was a 2-3 year shot, dont remember a friends vet gave it and the vet would not give the the records (its my flipping horse for crying out loud! but because someone else had it done there is some sort of issue why i cant get it. its stupid and i gave up on trying to get the info). when i got bit by a dog at work and went to the hospital the Dr said there was no point in me getting a shot as 1, rabies was only in the northern part of the state and had not been as low as the valley for years. and 2 the dog had shots lol. BUT my vet said something along similar lines so did not bother with it as she had had her shots utd for years and it was in her system. 1 or 2 years should not be an issue as she was a trail horse (then lame yard ornament) anyway. hopefuly we can get the money today or tomorrow to get the shots for the horses. whisper may be utd but i'm not positive.

the issue with the fox is that its 1, new. we never knew we HAD foxes out there for the 3 years they lived there. 2 Its BFE. there is almost 10-20 miles of open untouched land connected to at least 10 acres to get there RIGHT next to of where it was hiding. it went from minding its own business to overly friendly then suddenly aggressive. it's odd behavior. Ill tell them tonight to possibly call animal control. we already have a live trap we will set up (easier to get someone of authority to do something about it if we already HAVE it. and yes we know better than to go near it lol). IF its by the horses, dogs or under the truck again we will shoot it with a quickness. the truck where he was hiding and hissing at everyone is less than 45ft from the front door and how the kids and adults go to feed the horses. you have to pass within 3 ft of the truck. if its under there again AND id rabid someone will get hurt. I dont want one of the little kids to get bit.

here is an areal view of the land and were the truck is. kinda gives you a picture on WHY is terrifying. i dont think its scared. it has plenty of other places to go away from us.

the blue id the truck its hiding under. the red is the door. there are normally 2-3 vehicles parked closer to the front on the easement where he could also hide.
the green is the way the kids normally go as they check the goat pen along the way. the green lines are where the fronts of Negras pen and Whisper's pen are.


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> the area dose not have police that will do much (and it takes almost 45 to an hour for them to get there to begin with). yes we give shots ourselves so that can be done. she had the shot about 4 years ago, i think it was a 2-3 year shot, dont remember a friends vet gave it and the vet would not give the the records (its my flipping horse for crying out loud! but because someone else had it done there is some sort of issue why i cant get it. its stupid and i gave up on trying to get the info). when i got bit by a dog at work and went to the hospital the Dr said there was no point in me getting a shot as 1, rabies was only in the northern part of the state and had not been as low as the valley for years. and 2 the dog had shots lol. BUT my vet said something along similar lines so did not bother with it as she had had her shots utd for years and it was in her system. 1 or 2 years should not be an issue as she was a trail horse (then lame yard ornament) anyway. hopefuly we can get the money today or tomorrow to get the shots for the horses. whisper may be utd but i'm not positive.
> 
> the issue with the fox is that its 1, new. we never knew we HAD foxes out there for the 3 years they lived there. 2 Its BFE. there is almost 10-20 miles of open untouched land connected to at least 10 acres to get there RIGHT next to of where it was hiding. it went from minding its own business to overly friendly then suddenly aggressive. it's odd behavior. Ill tell them tonight to possibly call animal control. we already have a live trap we will set up (easier to get someone of authority to do something about it if we already HAVE it. and yes we know better than to go near it lol). IF its by the horses, dogs or under the truck again we will shoot it with a quickness. the truck where he was hiding and hissing at everyone is less than 45ft from the front door and how the kids and adults go to feed the horses. you have to pass within 3 ft of the truck. if its under there again AND id rabid someone will get hurt. I dont want one of the little kids to get bit.
> 
> here is an areal view of the land and were the truck is. kinda gives you a picture on WHY is terrifying. i dont think its scared. it has plenty of other places to go away from us.
> 
> the blue id the truck its hiding under. the red is the door. there are normally 2-3 vehicles parked closer to the front on the easement where he could also hide.
> the green is the way the kids normally go as they check the goat pen along the way. the green lines are where the fronts of Negras pen and Whisper's pen are.


I just said that because around here there is no law about shots but rabies specifically must be given by a vet. You cannot buy it or handle it yourself. That is the law in most states, I didn't know about AZ .

Scary. Around here dogs cats and I think ferrets are required. I don't belive horses are legally required but you are supposed to and it is done yearly. There is no 3 year as there is for dogs and cats. If you got any sort of bite you need the shots if it's unvaccinated or acting sick. Our dog was barking at a raccoon and may or may not have had a tussle with it. She had absolutely no marks but was quarantined for 3 months. Our cat was unvaccinated due to age but when we went to vaccinate her we couldn't as she had a bite on her tail (from another house cat) and needed to be quarantined before vaccinating. It's taken very seriously. It's also more common of course, but something like that is not worth the risk. Not only is it fatal but it's just a nasty way to go 

I don't know what BFE means but even if it's not right that doesn't necessarily mean rabies. If it is young and lost/confused/injured that could explain that. Animal control or better yet some sort of Fish and Wildlife should be called unless it's an immediate threat. Hiding and hissing sounds like scared defensive behavior as opposed to aggressive. I would definitely be detouring around the truck though!

For an example our red (and grey) foxes are a little larger but still very small (20 lbs?) and timid and shy with humans not exactly a threat..a recently confirmed rabid fox in our area was spotted when it charged out at a hiker and attacked him. The hiker literally had to beat him off. A few days later a police officer was sitting for speeders in the same woods when it charged out of the woods and attacked the CRUISER... luckily the door was shut!! The officer was able to sneak the window open and shoot it.

I think you are doing all the right things. Be very very careful. Hopefully it's just confused and goes on it's way, or if sick, it is not rabies.

I would stay far away from the truck and keep the kids away. If it is rabid it may suddenly attack, I would also expect it to get worse (staggering, drooling, very aggressive).

Trapping it and calling wildlife control sounds like a good option.


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## KigerQueen

bfe means bum fark egypt. basically out in the middle of nowhere. we are over 30 miles away from the closest shopping area. the closest thing to a store we have out there is a truck stop lol. agreed about staying away from the truck though we are currently trying to fix it. its our only mode of transport. i know you can give our dogs the rabies yourself. i THINK we can do rabies on horses ourself. if not that's not good as i dont have 70-80 for a vet to come out then the 35 for the shot itself. we do have red and gray foxes ot here but our problem is a kit fox so its about 5-9lbs. 


My fiance just informed me it was fighting with Whisper over her soaked alfalfa pellets... hissing at her and she was stomping at it... yeah not panicked at all.


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## Yogiwick

I don't see why you couldn't do the horse if you can do the dog.

I don't know why it would want her food if it was rabid. They aren't usually rational or interested in eating/drinking (and are often afraid to) It's a neurological issue.

Poor thing, they are so cute. I've never seen one in person. Maybe at the AZ zoo I went to but don't remember. It's good it's so small, doesn't make the bite less dangerous if it's rabid but at least makes the animal less dangerous.

If it wants some of the pellets maybe a lure to get him in the cage?

Not sure if it's good or bad that it's moving around!


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## KigerQueen

agreed. they normally dont want food but normal foxes dont eat hay or pellets. there are other places near buy to steal food from too. the guy behind them feeds the quail all the time, fat lazy birds too. and there are plenty of rodents and rabbits. the coyotes are doing fine without bothering people. its odd he is attracted to the busiest noisiest house in the area.


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## natisha

State laws regarding rabies vaccine.



http://canigivemydog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Rabies-state-laws.pdf


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## Saddlebag

Does she have to wear shoes? Where she's living her hooves will pretty much self trim and maybe that's what she needs. Let her find the angles that work.


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## KigerQueen

i messaged my vet to see. i can buy the vax from him too if i can (or anyway). ill also check the feed store to see if i can buy it there. My SIL vaxes all her dogs herself (she has 8 so its alot cheaper). and i normally vax my mare as its $50-70 opposed to $170.


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## KigerQueen

My mares ideas on her own angles are incredibly long tones and heals so short they bleed (then she just chips to the point she bleeds. she has bled before on grass pasture). so yes shoes tough they are plastic and allow the hoof to flex naturally. she is also living on dirt so its to soft to trim naturally. she has no shoes on her backs and that causing issues in itself. she nearly ripped her quarter off from the crack back, had to trim that down A LOT (not pictured that happened after a ride on a dirt rd. her souls bled a bit to and she was with another horse who had did fine with no shoes). in 5 weeks her bars over grew too (only on her backs oddly) and she distorted one pretty bad and we cant figure out how she pulled that off (i think its from her spinning she thinks she is a reiner). she has only been bare on her backs for 2-3 months -_-'.

this is what her hooves looked like with 3 years of no hoof care on a large pasture (before i got her). Look at full body pic. it was the day i bought her)

she is doing really good now. before this all happened the only other time she was lame is when i pulled her shoes. she was gimping on a sand arena. and chipping and distorting in a sand arena. she has always done better WITH shoes and she had done very well with the ground controls so ill stick with that. still have the ones for her backs but because she spins on her back end so much she physically rips them on (we find them in her pen... kinda too expensive to lose so they are back ups.) 
her angles are hard to fix because how she likes to stand. one leg stretched back and one way forward as she eats and picks crap off the ground. a lot of horses do it (we have 2 others that do) but she just makes things harder to fix.


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## KigerQueen

this was her first barefoot trim after shoes. this was the beginning of her going down hill and were her "ir" lump on her neck started. she was not sound until shoes.


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## Yogiwick

You may be able to get your rabies online.


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## KigerQueen

not a bad idea though dont know how long until it arrives. 

my mom thinks its rabies as growing up my grandparents (and my mom) dealt with many rabid racoons. they watched one fight others for food though he did not eat it. the behavior pattern was always the same. they would get bold, fearless and almost friendly with people, then they would start to get aggressive before "classic" rabies symptoms set in.

After research im only 40% positive it rabies but i still dont want to chance it. I do not want to have to shoot my horse. or the other horse.


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## Yogiwick

Obviously the humans and your pets/livestock come first. Have you had any luck so far?


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## KigerQueen

nope. my fiance is there right now and has his 22 and his 40 ready. im going to try to get the rabies vax from my vet as he knows i can pay him back if i dont have the full amount.


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> nope. my fiance is there right now and has his 22 and his 40 ready. im going to try to get the rabies vax from my vet as he knows i can pay him back if i dont have the full amount.


Have him use one of those guns. I love all animals but as that fox is clearly displaying odd behavior something is wrong with it. Maybe he only never learned fox ways & if so his life won't be good. Better to end it quickly before it turns into a real mess.

A few weeks ago I saw a strange lump in my hay field. Upon inspection it was a very slow moving racoon. No racoon is out in the open , especially at 11 AM. 
It was very ataxic, twitching it's head & the eyes were twitchy as if trying to focus. We couldn't see any injuries & I strongly suspect rabies. It went to racoon Heaven. It was then triple bagged & disposed of. 
All my animals are vaccinated but not so the wild creatures who may happen to come across it or eat it, so as bad as I felt for the racoon it had to be.

One way or the other the fox has to go. Either you guys or wildlife management.


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## KigerQueen

agreed (and its something comeing from me the biggest bleeding heart you will meet! i feel bad for butting half dead bugs out of their misery!). i am already done with 2016 -_-'.


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## Yogiwick

Please Kiger, or anyone. If you feel the need to take matters into your own hands (and sometimes that's the only option) DO contact authorities. The animal really should be tested and properly disposed of. It is a public health concern and important to track the disease. Try not to damage the head. If you do they can't test but it should still be reported as suspected. 

Poor fox. I hope at this point it wasn't sick and ran away or has been put out of its misery and everyone is safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

authorities will be called if it comes to it. i LOVE foxes (looked into getting a pet fox) and i got mad when family started saying it was going to cause issues and blah blah. i HATE it when they are right (im just a stupid hippy and dont know what im talking about apparently). i have been trying to convince them not to kill the one coyote that wanders through the back of their proportie every now and then since he minds his own business.

i will say i am done with this month and 2016. my dad is in the hospital (terminal cancer he as fought for over 10 years). saver malnutrition, confusion and his COPD got worst (i found out TODAY that he even HAS that...). So i have ti borrow money from someone for plane tickets AND rabies shots. yep done.
If you guys dont hear from me for a bit that's why.)


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## Horseychick87

That sucks about the fox, I hope nothing is really wrong with it in the end, just for everybody's well being.

Sorry to hear about your dad.


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## Yogiwick

So sorry to hear about your dad


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## loosie

Saddlebag said:


> Does she have to wear shoes? Where she's living her hooves will pretty much self trim and maybe that's what she needs. Let her find the angles that work.


Is the horse finally allowed to be a horse now?? I haven't visited this thread since early pages, when Kiger was insisting it was perfectly OK & unchangeable & no problem, that her horse lived permanently in a small yard, without any turnout & wasn't sound so wasn't ridden. So absolutely no possibility of 'self trimming', even if her feet were comfortable to allow good hoof function. Body issues too, of which the hind end is obviously still a huge prob & effecting hind hoof balance...


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## Yogiwick

loosie, Negra has been moved multiple times. I've honestly lost track. And is now at the sister in laws I believe.


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## KigerQueen

for the most part yes loosie. i found one place that had turn out. moved her begining of august. took less than a month for her to end up half starved by someone i thought i have known since 2010. moved her to an arabian show/breeding barn. she got better and gained weight. lady whent nutso and board was killing me, so i moved her over an hour away to my sisters. she has more space, she is inlove with the mare there, down side is no shelter whatsoever. 

trust me i have been FIGHTING with my fiance and sister in law to make a turnout big enough for the horses to be out together. we are moving the other 4 up there and their stalls will attach to the round pen making it into a bigger arena/turnout. all horses will get mandatory daily turnout time (either my father in law likes it or not. he has issues with letting horses be horses). My goal is to get land and our 3 horses out all day and away at night (the only compromise for letting them be out "unattended" for hours).

Also never said being stalled all the time was "ok". its just all that's available. trust me its impossible to find turnout board. spend the better part of a year looking.

the pic was the day i moved my mare to her new place. she looked like hell and ****ed was an understatement. i could not get down there for a cuple of weeks to my friends but i THOUGHT be was gaining her weight back and being taken care of. the other pics are of her now.


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## KigerQueen

sidenote the fox is MIA so yay? sad note we now owe the emergency room $280 because my fiance tore the tendon holding his calf muscle to his bone. and possibly his hamstring. this is the second time in 2 years too. so YAY! is 2016 over yet? or at least January?!


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## tinaev

I just came to see pictures of Negra. I think she is so pretty. 

Kiger, I'm sorry to hear everything has been so crappy for you lately. I really hope things start looking up soon.


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## stevenson

okay , I got lost in this... What did the Vet say ??


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## Rain Shadow

There is turnout in Arizona if you look. I took five minutes and checked out the Phoenix Craigslist and found plenty of places that offer turnout in their board. Here are plenty under 300 a month

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/grd/5367243702.html

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/cph/grd/5385646494.html

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/grd/5342470585.html

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/grd/5371689947.html


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## stevenson

I think she moved to her relatives was because she could not afford board. 
and had problems .


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## KigerQueen

The first one i have eyeballed but its a quarter tank of gas one way for me (used to live out there. still on the table for me but it HAS turnout, its not pasture board and having them turn out is extra.

will NOT board in laveen. its also 30-40 min in traffic (boarded my mare at my friends in laveen). i could get down there maybe once a week and i called that place. they want A LOT. also same as above on pasture. unless you go down and turn out your horse will sit. and most times you have to wait for the pasture.

mesa is over an hour away from me and i might get to get out there once a month. and that price is close to what i make in a month. 

last one my fiance used to board at. he said the lady is very her way or the highway and kinda nutty.

when places offer turnouts out here its not like the horse spends a lot of time in it. its a rotation of an 30min- an hour. normally dirt and usually extra. thought its close to me.

when I mean pasture board I mean my horse spends most of her out of her stall. where I had her was close to a lot of these. but no real pasture. where she is at now she gets daily one on one attention and room to move. and i only pay feed so i cant beat that. this is the best she has ever looked so cant argue there. Now there IS SOME true pasture board but the pastures are either overcrowded, a 80 mile one way trim (and over $600 a month) or a 1 acre dirt lot with 7 horses on it. trust me she is not getting moved anytime soon. she is happy, their mare who had been alone for 3 years is extremely happy and my wallet is happy. Plus side they are family so i can absolutely hold them accountable for slacking in care and they won't just abuse her because they can.


thank you for looking up the other boarding places though. i think i have all but memorized all the available ones out here. i searched for something that would work but after my horse suffering horribly from being too far away for me to see her at least 3 times away i just cant do it again. 

the second place i ever boarded her not only did NOT even feed her but she had gon at least 3-4 days without water. i ended up riding an horse with a score of 3 (out of 10) on the BMI scale 7 miles though the city just to get her to the place i used to board at (where my fiance has his horses). then my friends down the street rented a nice house with a barn. it was perfect and my mare only spend the night in her stall. then they started stealing my hay as vet bills piled up. and my friends husband insisted using a rope around the neck to lead horses strangling his horse and nearly mine. tolerated that untill $60 worth of hay disappeared in a day. 
after a year being there moved her to my friends pasture where her minis were. all was good until mare got marish and hers was a mini. her mini had a small scrape (we had warned her this would happen) and she flipped out at me saying if my mare could not behave it would not work out. Being down THAT road i said nope and just moved her back where my fiance's horses were. 
stayed there until she got navicular so i moved her to my friend's who starved her. that lasted amaybe 2 months? (moved her in august and left the day after labor day). the last 2-3 weeks i started looking and found another place. 
things for HER where working out but the owner was a little nutty and got to the point i was out. within the first month she had removed my mare water bucket forcing her to use an auto water (that she would not drink out of as she never dose). coliced her (by NOT soaking her pellets like we agreed on and taking her bucket away) and left her on a hot walker (then was going to give her alfalfa to help with colic because you know feeding a colicing horse with hight energy feeds is a fantastic idea). she then accused me of being behind on board my 3rd board payment (i paid half of board twice a month and that was agreed on before i moved her) then said i was late on board (she was not there for the week i kept trying to pay her and i will NOT give my board to another boarder). i recently found out she has no money and 20 arabians consisting of mares, geldings weanlings and 3 stallions (within the 3 months i was there she acquired 3 weanlings, a crippled mare who should not be left to suffer, and a stallion who dragged her across the property to mount a horse statue, breaking it).
i was done with all the crazy boarding places (dont get me started on the first place i boarded at) that i jumped on my sister in law's offer. 

sorry for the rant i just want you all understand where i am coming from. boarding out here is ridiculous and irritating. 
i HATE switching barns as i hate making new friends, learning new rules written and unwritten, and trying to figure out the social structure. being socially awkward and then being tired from working kinda strains my social skills and dose not help with any of that. working and/ or school limits my time i can see her and when i cant be there my horse suffers. i nearly cried when i saw my mare when i was at my sisters. she is happy, looks fantastic and i saw my mare sleeping for the first time in 5 years. up till then i had never seen her sleep (and i have shared her stall quite a few nights). 

here is a pic of the first place i mentioned. she was there less than a month. i only was able to see her maybe 2 times after the first week as i had to go to class and take the bus.

again sorry for the rant. you all live in areas where horses get to be horses. here horses only get to be horses on the owners time.


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## KigerQueen

Well things are FINALLY looking up and im beyond relived. turns out i was never terminated after my two weeks notice from my last job. sooo I can transfer to corporate to the call center and make $12+ an hour. and actual livable wage!!! beyond excited! (Know better than to count my chickens before they hatch but this egg is half incubated.)

AND my truck is getting looked at on thursday so hopefully it will be a somewhat easy to fix (knowing my truck im going to have to drop my transmission half my exhaust system my torsion bars just to remove the clutch to get to it...)

just have to get though my friends funeral tomorrow. then back to my sisters for a week.

So ill be working with pony. doing some ground work and bringing her on walks. maybe ride her on a short trail ride to see how she is doing. if she is going to be a brat and bolt she will go back to her buddy and there is no cactus in the area so i should be good lol! (long story short the AZ back country riders call me cactus for a reason and its Negra's fault).


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## greentree

You are beyond lucky to be able to have a horse on $12 an hour!

Happy to hear things are looking up!


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## DraftyAiresMum

greentree said:


> You are beyond lucky to be able to have a horse on $12 an hour!
> 
> Happy to hear things are looking up!


I think horse-keeping in Arizona is different than a lot of places. We take a more "minimalist" approach than a lot of places do. Not only that, but we don't need to fuss with things like winter blankets and such. 

I afforded my gelding on minimum wage for the first three and a half years that I owned him. You learn to cut corners where you can in order to make it work. 

Would I do it again? Heck no. Am I glad I did? That's a loaded question. I wouldn't trade him for the world, but things are a heck of a lot easier now that I have some breathing room.


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## KigerQueen

I have been keeping her for $8.50 an hour for 25 hours a week lol. But i live at home. So with me paying $320 every 3 to 4 months i will be very ok with $12 plus an hour. 

Rode pony yesterday on a very short ride down the dirt rd. My sil was very happy to have a riding buddy. Sadly we did not get half way down the rd before she started limping. So hopped off and walked her home. She gimped most of the way back. But she was a sweetheart and very well behaved. She was not gimpy at all this morning though.


Side note my fiance and i have been included in the death threts from the people harazsing my sisters family. They said we are comeing soon with guns and you will die with them. Leftbthe note on a little box with a .22 bullet in it. To bad they dont know we have a huge hinting rifle uzed to take down elk, a .40 thats my fiances and my .22 thats semi auto. Not including the other guns in the house. Soooo done with this...


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## natisha

Did you report that to the police? Guns are no good if there is no one there to use them. Call the cops!!!
Why are those people so upset with you guys?
==================================
Which leg was she limping on?


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## KigerQueen

They are just punk kids. But their antics brought them to shoot worthy status after their death threts. And yes police are involved but they cant do anything untill one of these kids shoots someone. They know who they are where they are. The police have been there over 7 times the past 4 months too. 

Its her front right. The one she keeps crushing the heel.


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## KigerQueen

Hey had a thought. could it be a Suspensory Tendon Injury? or more precisely a deep flexor tendon injury? i was looking it up and vet say the horse is never the same after. She was long when it all happened its possible it could have happened. supposedly horses are never the same after and can take over a year to recover (about a year with proper rehab). any thoughts?


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## greentree

Could be DSLD.....are her pastern angles steeper than her hoof angles? DSLD could also account for her standing under herself like she does.


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## KigerQueen

Im thinking more injury the degenerative disease. i know a cuple or horses with dropped tendons and that dose not seem to be an issue. it could also count why she is still having soundness issues all on one leg. I will post some pics and her x rays again to take another look.







































when she was first lame
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZe3O4Fxjoo

this is her in October
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYDHZsM3CtM

and for a baseline this was her march of 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhAWIhWwu6k


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## Horseychick87

Hmm, I hadn't even thought of a DDFT injury, but it very well could be, especially with the hoof angle issues you were having. Of course it could be more than one thing occurring at once as well.

I think it's time to pull out the big guns on those punks are scare the living dog snot out of them. 
Of course in my area it would have turned into the big freaking shoot out long ago, LOL.


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## KigerQueen

contacted a Durango and the vet said first line of business would be nerve blocking. problem is she may not be lame enough to easily detect her lameness. idk i could alway ride her as that seems to work i guess. my truck is getting reassembled as i type so i may be able to put my transfer in today. then i have to keep my phone charged for the phone interview. 

once i get my first paycheck and my tax return shows up (any day now) she will be going to the vet. well once we have a truck that can pull a trailer is working (not mine the sad lil dakota v6 is not pulling anything).


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## Horseychick87

Well at this point all you can do is try, but at least you haven't given up on her.

Good luck with that phone interview!


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## KigerQueen

Last Night my friend (a QH breeder) pointed something out in her x rays. she says on the left lateral x ray, at the base of the DFT you can see a lot of haziness (i thought this was part of the digital cushion). she says it looks like ligament swelling. its alot more noticable on the left than the right. anyone else see that?


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> Hey had a thought. could it be a Suspensory Tendon Injury? or more precisely a deep flexor tendon injury? i was looking it up and vet say the horse is never the same after. She was long when it all happened its possible it could have happened. supposedly horses are never the same after and can take over a year to recover (about a year with proper rehab). any thoughts?


That's all news to me!!

And here I was thinking my horse's back legs were the sound ones!!

However, if not treated it may of never actually healed? I wouldn't even think that except (pretty sure I said this 30 pages ago or something LOL!) horses with suspensory issues often show as lame on a circle worse on what should be the good side. For example her LF is the focus, yet instead of being lamer in a circle to the left (more weight) she is worse to the right. I know I mentioned that already but honestly other than that little fact I really don't see why it would be a tendon thing.

Do ligaments even show on x-rays? I don't see anything obvious and I don't really know how to read them. It's also not necessarily even her foot which is my hunch. (As a primary lameness).

You would really need an ultrasound and I completely agree the first step is blocking..


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## KigerQueen

the reason i did not, and still am kinda iffy on the tendon injury is tha the legs/tendons swell and it looks almost like a bowed tendon. she never had any heat or swelling in her legs, even when she was 3 legged lame. all than im reading the legs look like this









or like this










but she had non of that. not even heat in and around her hoof. but who knows what she did knowing her. and sorry i did not pick up on what you said about the tendon. thats was back when i believed in my vet. now i dont believe in any truly.


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## Yogiwick

A horse at my work had a mild, very mild, suspensory strain (not even "sprain") over the summer.

He was very lame at first, NO heat and NO swelling. Was diagnosed with nerve blocks and u/s by a lameness specialist. Sound on meds. Got meds for about a week. Then aside from stall rest (with a paddock) and attempting (lol) to keep him quiet the only treatment was shockwave. She doesn't really do anything that I would feel would make something mild worse and if it wasn't mild then I would expect her to be worse.

I think injury is quite likely, or at least part of the problem but am not seeing it being anything like that. Just that circle thing is odd to me.

You really do need u/s and blocks or it's all just guessing. Show the vet your x-rays, maybe even before they come out, but I think they will want to start with blocks anyways.


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## KigerQueen

I sent her the X rays with the email. i will be doing nerve blocking though her lameness can be so intermittent it may not show up. i could alway ride her though at the vets (thought i would feel bad).

Im conflicted though. If its something like a DDF injury (looked it up quite a bit) and it will take 2-4 years or rehab and stem cell injections stall rest with sedation and what not. Is it really worth it? she is happy being fat and lazy. I love her but there is a money cap for this. can i justify spending over 8-10k in vet bills for a $500 unregistered 20 year old trail horse with a small chance of recovering back to being w/t sound? I am willing to spend alot more than i probably should because i love this horse but i agree to a point with what my Fiance's saying. 

Im hoping its something that can be managed. I know a navicular horse who had her navicular bursa injected. she is back to riding now. hopefully its something simple like that.


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## Horseychick87

At this point I would look at Negra as more of a pasture puff/ companion animal honestly. She's getting up there in age and she's going to have other issues crop up as she gets older most likely. I personally would try to get her pasture sound and manage her that way considering that her lameness is very evident when ridden.
That's not saying that you can't have fun taking her to showmanship/ halter class and the like. It's exercise that will keep her going at her age, light to moderate walks, maybe long lining if she'll tolerate it and of course turnout as much as possible.

Stem cells usually have to be used pretty early on to get the most benefit out of them, though they can still help later on, but the number of treatments needed and the cost per treatment can be prohibitive to say the least.
I'd look into a long term pain medication and of course proper hoof care to try and manage her, maybe acupressure/ puncture and chiropractic work if you can afford it and she responds well to it.


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> I sent her the X rays with the email. i will be doing nerve blocking though her lameness can be so intermittent it may not show up. i could alway ride her though at the vets (thought i would feel bad).
> 
> Im conflicted though. If its something like a DDF injury (looked it up quite a bit) and it will take 2-4 years or rehab and stem cell injections stall rest with sedation and what not. Is it really worth it? she is happy being fat and lazy. I love her but there is a money cap for this. can i justify spending over 8-10k in vet bills for a $500 unregistered 20 year old trail horse with a small chance of recovering back to being w/t sound? I am willing to spend alot more than i probably should because i love this horse but i agree to a point with what my Fiance's saying.
> 
> Im hoping its something that can be managed. I know a navicular horse who had her navicular bursa injected. she is back to riding now. hopefully its something simple like that.


You may need to ride her. Don't feel bad it's what you have to do to help her.

You are way overthinking it. The DDFT injuries I have dealt with were nowhere near that intense (and not on front legs anyways)

IF that is what it is, which seems random to me, there are more and less intense options. My own gelding has an old DDFT injury, the vet picked up on it at the PPE (post purchase exam ) and he is 100% sound on it and I am experienced and good at picking up on details and I have NEVER been able to tell any difference between that and his other leg. Now he may not be a Rolex mount but he is completely sound and healed. I wrap his legs when I work him but that's it. I know an upper level dressage mare with a back leg DDFT injury who is also 100% sound, and in hard work.

The internet is amazing but I think this is a good example of when it's a bad thing. I know it's hard but just wait for the vet, you have waited this long. You need this mare sound, but what sound means is relative. If you can get her pasture sound and chose to permanently retire her (and actually do that) then that is fine and won't be as intense as attempting to get her working sound again.

Just wait and see what the vet says, there are so many options not only on what it is but how to treat it, to what extent, etc.

The breeding thing is huge here, but you have a separate thread on that. I assume the vet you have coming out will know about that?


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## KigerQueen

The issue with retiring her is that she is in a small pen every day. and she more then likely will until the day she dies. and knowing her and arabians she could very well live for another 15 years. I now wont be able to get her out and let her get exercise anymore via riding. My SIL wont put in a pasture as she sees no point in it (here we go again with the mentality that horses should live in stalls with limited turnout time). And there is nothing i can do for it either. As for showing i can't. I can't pull a trailer with my truck and my fiance will NOT take 4 hours of driving time for 20 min of showing. Im hoping i could move her closer but the issue with that is then she will be in a smaller stall with no turnout unless i turn her out.

I know im overthinking it but i underthought it to begin with and now here i am. A year following vets orders for "navicular" with a still lame horse, while i know someone who's "navicular" horse with horribly contracted heals on all 4 hooves, long toes with eggbar shoes and wedges can still take her horse on a trail ride.

I just feel horribly discouraged. If she is never going to be close to riding sound again ill send her to my friend in Oklahoma maybe. though they only get the farrier out every 4 months or so (they have a 20 acre pasture but their feet still dont look fantastic).


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## SlideStop

Have you attempted buting her before you ride? This issue is always a teeter totter to me... Quantity vs quality. You can quit riding and retire and let you horse live in a small pen for 10 years or you can give your horse several years of QUALITY life. Personally, I know my horse LOVES to work! While I don't ride her into the ground I still work her in the arena and trail ride her. I'd say she is in moderate work, probably more like light with the winter being here. If that shorten up her lifespan I'm cool with that, and I'm sure she is too! 

Just like every other disease, navicular effects every horse differently. Years ago my friends horse was diagnosed. I think it was less then 6 months before she ended up putting her horse to sleep because he was that lame. When I found out I was devastated. I thought, "here I am with my heart horse and I'll have to put her down shortly". Alas, my mare seems to be very stable. In April I'll have the X-rays redone to see if there are any changes, which I don't think there will be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

Im hoping its something that can be corrected or managed. as it was i was riding her at a slow walk (my fiance had a lead rope on her just incase she had a moment). we did not make it 3 houses down before she was limping. by the 4th she was dead lame. hoped off and she was nearly 3 legged lame all the way home. She loves a job. that's why she loves groundwork. but she also loves to not work, eat and play all day (or sleep). My moral dilemma is that if i have to drug my horse to ride her i have no business doing so. If its causing enough pain to a stop pray animal to let me know riding hurts i should not be riding her. and giving her a pain med to cover it up dose not feel right. If it was just arthritis that would cause some discomfort until worked though i would not feel bad. 

Now if the vet says there is something that can be done to make her ok for light riding or driving i would be ok with that. but if they say she is just a pasture puff i will look into her living with my friend. she has two other horses a little older then Negra that have their own hige grass pasture. They live happy fat and sassy. I think that would be a good retirement for her if that's all she can be happy doing. I may get to see her once a year and it would brake my heart but she would be happy. and its the best i can give her if that's an option. I wont board somewhere again. I know this friend VERY well. her gelding has been in her name since she was 4 (they are the same age too). her parents had a huge show barn and bred paints and QHs so they know how to take care of horses. It dose not hurt that her uncle is a horse vet.


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## KigerQueen

What possesses people to be nosy and have to make people live harder? Our Mustang gelding is a peer as in if he is standing in an uncovered stall when its in the 100s he will still have a bog in 3 days. no matter WHAT you do. we have had complaints about our horses since this person accused us of stealing her saddle. 1 she left all her tack when she sold her horse FIVE YEARS AGO! soo its not stolen if its abandoned. 2 the saddle she says was her is my FILs saddle he has had for almost 10 years. So since then we have been getting "complaints" about every little thing. "your horses feet are long" "their stalls are muddy" (um yeah we had rainageddon they are ALL muddy!) "they are thin" Umm has anyone seen how much food said horse EATS! over 50lbs a day and he is 31. the other also gets close to 50 lbs a day and is a hard keeper at 9 years old. 

So Chris's (the mustang) stall was muddy from him peeing 50gal a day and rain, there is nothing for it. We were told that the ASPCA was out and said his stall condition was borderline animal cruelty. umm what? He has 2 pees spots! his stall is relatively dry for once! and he has PLENTY of space to lay down away from mud. his feet were just trimmed and he is at a good weight (thankfully an easy keeper). So thanks to that BS Chris needs to be out of there by the end of the week. SOOO now i can say goodbye to half the feed i saved up for. Looks like no vet visit for at least two months as we now have to get stalls (and more feed) sooner because some LOVELY person has her panties in a knot. Its not like my fiance hasn't had his horses there for over 9 years or anything. Not like he helped build most of the stalls and saved people horses from dying of colic or hanging themselves (he is everyones free superman). but this chick comes in with a stunted foal (who lunges him hard at less than 5 months old with legs as straight as a slinky) and suddenly she runs the place. 

and to top it off no one at work knows if im still an employee or not. so now i have no idea if i need to apply or get a transfer. or better yet if in on the not hire list because of the days i missed during my two weeks notice. I hate people. i really do.


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## KigerQueen

Well going to a lameness seminar at the vet clinic i will be taking negra too. its from 9am till 1pm. hoping to take away a bit of knowledge and possibly some info.


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## KigerQueen

the vets and the seminar were fantastic. picked their brains about pony and got feedback. they said that we would start from the beginning. new x rays, lameness exam nerve blocking and possible ultra sound. He said the total exam should take about 3-4 hours and run about $400-$600! My other vet charged me almost $400 for a 45min exam! Im feeling hopeful that they can finally tell me whats going on in my mare! but first have to deal with moving chris. and we are going to try and get our paint on free choice alfalfa (talked to vet about our hard keeper. no worms no sand. just cant keep weight on. been this way since he was a weanling). we are looking at a live in ranch job about 2 hours (so over 3 hours from horses) away. hopefully it works out and we can save some money up.


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## Yogiwick

That's a great price!!!


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## KigerQueen

That's what i said! i can't argue with that! now if i can only get the money... i can't even apply to work anywhere since i dont even know my employment status. i just love it when no one had any idea whats going on -_-'.


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## Yogiwick

Can't you apply regardless? Or are you hoping to work at the previous company


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## KigerQueen

well i dont know if i am still employed and there is a no compete clause were i work. i also want to work in a different depart ment of the same company but have no idea what is going on. on that line of thinking i may be on the not hire list because i missed two days during my two weeks notice (friend died then cat died within 4 days of each other and i was a wreck). was told i was never terminated so went to work to transfer and this whole debacle started. sooo while this is trying to sort itself my fiance and i got a job offer to be the live in caretakers of a rescue and lesson barn (no boarders yay!), 20-25 horses. feed, clean waters, groom and pick hooves. maintain the property. not something we have not done before when my fiance worked at a ranch. it may not be a permanent solution but for 1 year to a year and 6 months (or more, you never know) it will work. and we can save money away.


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## Horseychick87

Hopefully the work situation works itself out for the better.

I agree that is a good price for that exam, hopefully everything will work out quickly and you can get it done.


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## KigerQueen

Well. Truck wont start. Need it to remove the old water heater and the now dead washer. Os 2016 over yet? In other news the mustang got moved and is now next to negra. I bet shenis thrilled. Not really she dislikes him. And its dropping below freezing with rain. YAY!


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## Horseychick87

Knowing you're in AZ and reading freezing with rain I was like Whhhaaatt!? LOL. (I always picture Phoenix in the summer when I think of AZ.)

Sounds like you're having the same trouble I am. I've got to replace my water heater and my dryer...oh and my entire guest bathroom thanks to a leak under the tub...lovely.

Is Negra giving him the evil eye? ;-)

Hopefully things will look up for you soon, it's truly tough to be ina spot like that.


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## KigerQueen

SOOOOOOO.... I got called in for an interview at the call center!!! meaning IF i get hired i start in march! Passed the phone interview (i was in the middle of a nap when they called lol!) so on to the in person interview next week! SOOO excited.

on another note people are complaining about our other horse now -_-'. someone asked if we would be willing to rehome him. he is getting 2 (small crappy flakes) of good alfalfa and 35lbs of pellets and safe choice performance. Still a BMS of 3 out of 10. he is a hard keeper and vet told us free choice alfalfa and oats/corn. that being said we cant start him on that untill either i start working (so i can make a slow feeder that can lock with a padlock and fits an entire 80 lb bale of alfalfa) or until we move him as people might walk off with the hay. and the BO will not feed a horse who has any food. people annoy me. they drove one of our horses out because of a pee spot -_-' i understand odie has an issue but it is being addressed but only so much we can do. he has been getting worst the last 6 months (slowly) so im thinking BO is feeding less so people complain about him. the horse has spent his entire 9 years of his life there. always been a hard keeper but now i think something is up. cait WAIT to move them all!


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## Horseychick87

Hey, that's great. Good luck on the in person interview!

Hmm, I wonder what could be going on with the poor guy. That's a lot of food and not a BCS I would expect. If I had fed that much to TJ or Apache they would have exploded. Shoot TJ stayed chunky off of 24/7 Bermuda hay and a ration balancer and he worked 6 days a week for 9 hours per day (Ranch horse and hunter). Apache got just about the same thing if I remember right and worked almost as much until he was retired.

Is he the same BO where you originally had Negra? Kinda sounds like him from the description.

Heh if they're bothered by pee spots don't let them see one barn I used to take lessons at. They had a lot of horses on high protein diets for one reason or another and were constantly peeing. They had full time staff just for stall maintenance.


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## KigerQueen

my interview yesterday was fantastic. ended up talking about horses and chickens for the last half of the interview lol! told me they will call me next week if i got the job.

Got a call today and i DID GET THE JOB!!! SOOO Flipping EXCITED!!! now after my first week of work (and i see my schedule) i will plann NEgras vet appointment. probably the first to second week of next month!


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## Yogiwick

Congrats !!!


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## Horseychick87

Congrats! Way to go girl! :-D


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## KigerQueen

thank you!!! i will be setting her vet appointment for the first week of march. first week if 40 hours so i should have MORE than enough to pay for anything she needs done short of surgery.

is it rude to film the lameness exam? i really want to film it and show it but i dont want to be rude asking.


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## KigerQueen

UGH!!! i swear im going to just stop banking. i double and triple checked my routing number to get my tax return directly deposited. checked the IRS tracking today and my flipping bank SENT MY TAX RETURN BACK TO THE IRS!!! sooo maybe negra will be seen middle of next month. i need to pay off my phone since we are switching carriers and cant do that without $200 in my pocket... sooo wont have enough after the first week for vet visit...


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## natisha

KigerQueen said:


> thank you!!! i will be setting her vet appointment for the first week of march. first week if 40 hours so i should have MORE than enough to pay for anything she needs done short of surgery.
> 
> is it rude to film the lameness exam? i really want to film it and show it but i dont want to be rude asking.


You may be too busy helping the vet to film much.


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## KigerQueen

maybe. the vets normally have their assistance handle the horses, not the owners. i will be just standing around watching. said vet im bringing her to dose not have owners handle the horses except in extreme situations (like an exceptionally bratty horse). when I was dealing with this vet when my mare choked they had it without any help from me.


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## KigerQueen

oh lord i may end up on the news. now because of crazy nosy people we have to move both our paint AND the pony next month. meaning negras vet appointment might get moved back further!!! So someone who we board with attacked me on my fb after she offered to "take him off your hands" him being our hard keeper paint. then she went off about how our mustang was living in mud and feces and we have skinny horses. Umm 1 the front of the mustangs stall was a mud bog and it was SMALLER than his normal mud "spa". and he is slowly turning a 40ft round pen with no cover into a bog as well and he has been there about a week! 2 i dont know where she is getting the skinny horse"s" part. odie is skinny but he is getting 35-40 lbs of soaked pellets a day and about 10lbs of alfalfa. his neck and withers score about a 4, his back and ribs about a 2 and his back end about a 3. so overall about a 3 (out of 10. 1 being about to die, 5 being perfect and 10 being obese). He has been wormed, we are going to do another round of psyllium for sand and slowly up the feed. (im attaching crappy pics i took of him tonight)

The 31 year old horse has no top line. all his weight shifted down lol! he is so chunky it looks like he is about 3 months out from foaling. I cant feel his ribs unless i push gently. He is feeling fantastic too. had to leave the halter on for a few min because he was so over excited to be out i did not want to lose my head from an excited buck. (you can turn him out everyday and he gets like that. when he is done running he wants to go back to his stall. weird horse).
Here is crappy dark vid of said spazz from tonight.

https://youtu.be/WbRfK0j5VjY


the only other horse of ours there is a 14.1hh navajo pony who is 26 and has not been worked in 3-4 years. so she has old horse big belly no top line (and all have been wormed and are fine on that front).


End Rant. just needed to get that off my chest as i am beyond frustrated. These horses have been there over 9 years and no one has had a single issue with them. suddenly there are HUGE issues the past 5 months and its gotten old.


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## DraftyAiresMum

So you go through an 80lbs bag of pellets (size most are sold in) for Odie every other day? That's got to be crazy expensive. :shock:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

yep. rocket is getting about 30-35lbs a day too so a bag lasts a day and a half. so yep. one bag lasts all 3 other horses 3-4 days each horse (20 lbs a day). yay for hard keepers. worst part is this person's horses are all next to odie -_-'. best part is i KNOW they have been in his stall! new chain, gate NOT how it was closed last time and two of the feed buckets were sitting on top of our pellet bin (odies pellet buckets and one of rockets 2 buckets. rockets are small and can only fit 15lbs of pellets each). Soo yeah. all was good for 9 flippin years untill this last october/november.


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## Horseychick87

It could be the light but the paint (Odie is it?) does not look that bad, thin yes, but not anything un-manageable by any means. He does seem to lack some muscle/ weight in his hind quarters, but he looked overall like a 3.5 or so on the BSC scale in those pics. But again it is dark.

That's a lot of pellets, I'd be beyond broke buying all of that, LOL. 

Ugh, don't ya just love banks and the IRS.


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## natisha

If someone wanted to go in a stall they wouldn't need a gate.

Wouldn't the way those horses are kept be a good reason to try something different on your own place?


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## KigerQueen

i got in it with the BO this morning because if a horse has even 2 bites of pellets left from the night befor he won't feed and this horse missed 2 morning feedings. i almost lost it! but i HAVE to play nice untill we can move the stalls. then i can tell him off. And yes they dont need a gate to get in but i dont want them taking him out of his stall. dont think any of you would want someone doing something with your horses without your permission. especially if your horse can be horse aggressive. there are just some horses he does not like. he will randomly try to remove their ear when within biting range. i do NOT want to pay for that vet bill. He is normally good but i know him and know how to handle his stupid moments.

Once we get our own place they will be out at least 60-80% of the time. eventually they may get out 100% of the time but again the mindset of most people out here is "my horse could get hurt out in a big field with another horse!!!" Still working on that with family. since i got my truck back they have been out for at least 3-5 hours a day so there is that. better than nothing though.

he is about a 3. he just has no top line and i want a little more weight on him before i try to build him up at all. a cuple of horse friends there even said he doesn't look fantastic but not even as bad as a 30 year old mare on the property (she scores a 1.5 -2). she is horribly skinny but vets just say she is old. and she is owned by an ex mounted cop too. So me snapping at said person seems to have shut people up and i have not had to deal with stupid. apparently quiet little me snapping scared a few people. Good!


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## KigerQueen

we just spent about $50 on 3 bags that might last us 4 days... OW... won't be as bad once we are not paying $160 per horse as well. we can get 25 bags for 320 from the mill itself so once they are moved we will be spending almost half of the monthly horse bill (and by we i mean me and my soon to be father in law). we are going to start tearing down stalls wednesday and them bring more feed up to my sisters thursday. at least two of our horses are easy keepers -_-' all 5 could be hard keepers (Well Negra is middle of the road keeper lol). Ill post pics of my "skinny Horses" tomorrow. 



On a side note went to a lameness exam for my friends horse. poor guy needs to get a bone scan to figure out whats going on with him.


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## KigerQueen

so here is my skinny horse. switched him to straight alfalfa pellets and it seems to be helping. he is getting about 21qts of feed (3qts is about 5lbs last time we weighed it). thinking by next weekend i can slowly start working him. just lunging at a walk and trot for a cuple of min. im just turning him out now and letting him do his own thing.


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## Horseychick87

He looks better in the daylight. I'd say maybe 50 pounds is what he needs, even with his 'winter' fuzzies you can see he's a tad thin but definitely not anything horrible. (Of course I might be a bit biased as I'm used to sleek bodied Thoroughbreds and Akhal-Tekes...in fit condition soo, yeah.)

21 quarts at 5 pounds per 3 quarts is 35 pounds of feed. So if that's alfalfa he should put some weight on. I don't like to see older horses too fat, it's hard on their joints and they certainly don't need any more trouble moving around than they might already have. I tend to look for a 4.5 (if they're fit) to a 5 on the BSC on any of my horses. 
Though Reba was a chunky monkey no matter what, typical Quarter pony. LOL.

Pellets seem to run about the same where you are as they are here. I can get 50 pounds of alfalfa pellets for about $13/ $14 or 40 pounds of the Standlee brand for a few bucks more. I usually go with the 'store brand' as they seem to work just as well and I get 10 more pounds for less money.


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## KigerQueen

the brand we get is $14.95 + $1.50 tax. pet club dose not have a store brands to lakin is the cheapest brand. it also the better brand IMO. being that he is a pure bred paint (not pinto though since no one filed for registration its a moot point) he should be bulky and its what im looking for for him. want to get a bit more weight on him then start working him quite a bit to build him up. i think he would be a nice little all round horse. maybe a cute hunter jumper.
Disassembled his stall today so he is chilling in the uncovered dryout stall untill we get the ball rolling. need a hacksaw for the other half of the stall (were the pony is at) because someone thought they should sink the corner of the stall itself in the concrete along with the support post -_-'. They also welded the clamp holding two panels together on both panels because that makes sense. 

I have not had to deal with anymore stupid people so that makes me happy. Well besides BO but i have to keep reminding myself that if i want the stalls i have to be nice...


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## DraftyAiresMum

KigerQueen said:


> being that he is a pure bred paint (not pinto though since no one filed for registration its a moot point) he should be bulky and its what im looking for for him.


Not necessarily. Do you know his breeding? Because he looks like he's got A LOT of TB influence, to me.


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## FrostedLilly

You said he is 31? Sorry if you mentioned this already, but have you had his teeth checked? We had an old mare who when we took her to the vet ended up having 4 teeth pulled and she held her weight a lot better once that had been taken care of. We had to soak her feed most of the time to help her chew it. Even with that, because she was completely retired and wasn't exercised, she lost a lot of her muscle mass which made her look a lot skinnier than she truly was. He honestly doesn't look that bad for his age. A little thin? Yes. So thin that he is at risk? Certainly not.


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## Horseychick87

He does appear less stocky and more 'Appendix' like to me, but either way some muscle and maybe some more weight will do him some good.

Who sinks a movable stall panel in concrete? I mean I could see it if the horse was taking the stall apart on a regular basis, but wow. Seems like they didn't intend for those movable panels to be so movable.


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## KigerQueen

he is 9. his sire was a 15.2hh stocky paint and his dam was 14.2hh stocky paint. and then this 16.2hh moose was somehow produced lol! i think its more because he was gelded at 9 months old.

his teeth do need done again but we want to move him first. the vets out here dont always do the most fantastic job when it comes to teeth. Durango has a teeth specialist so there is hope lol!

Dealing with stupid petty people again though. someone removed the beta biothane strap and a steel clip WITH Rockets bucket and its gone. Checked all the tack rooms type gone. it has been on his fence for 3 months with no problem and the leather strap has been there for 10 months no problem. but now suddenly its just gone? and because of that i can only shove 3 1/2 scoops in that bucket. rocket needs 3 more. at least the old man is keeping weight better the odie (the paint). 


Saw Negra yesterday. she is doing good but her back foot is warping again so i might have to but metal shoes back on them. Seams to be the only thing that can stay on her back end.

I also have pics of the mustang we moved. the 24-5 year old mare ate his tail... My SIL REFUSES to believe her mare did it and thinks he either came there like that or someone stole it. problem is no one can get close enough to him to do that lol! took me 2 hours to just to jut a small strand off for a hat band. but what ever. i honestly dont care. just my mares stall will have fencing on the front so no one eats her tail...

Im also including some new pics of odie in the dry out penn since i refuse to move him to the stall next to the WONDERFUL person who is stepping way out of line. and pics of the 26 year old pony. who is also "skinny". has nothing do do with her being out of work for almost 5 years.


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## KigerQueen

well already having issues with the mustang. he is trashing the stall (hence why we told her to keep him in the round pen). think he broke a panel... sooo i have told my FIL many time to rehome him.. maybe he will listen sooner than later when the horse has nowhere to go.


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## Horseychick87

If you wouldn't have mentioned that nobody could get close to the mustang I would have thought someone chopped his tail up myself. That's exactly how the tail on a local girls horse looked after someone got into his stall and cut his tail before a show along with chopping of parts of his mane and painting him.

Poor Negra, with that scar on her coronet band her hoof will likely always be that way. She looked like she was trying to keep that leg under herself in the one picture.

Hopefully the FiL will listen and find a better place for the mustang. Some horses just don't do stalls very well.


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## KigerQueen

She has had the hoof scar for at least 7-8 years. it wont worp if i keep metal shoes on it. she has ripped the GC off within days because of all the spinning on her hind end. i think she thinks she is a reiner -_-'. it has never seamed to bother her though. she was just standing awkwardly in the pic. i swear that mare cant take a non weird pic -_-'

I would be surprised if they got that close to his tail. You should see someone trying to halter him (that is not me, my fil, or my fiance). it takes an 30 min sometimes for us to get him if he decides he wants to be left alone. I honestly dont care though. his tail will grow back. if it was negras i might lose it a bit though... 

Last week rockets bucket went missing then magically showed up again (shoved in his feeder with clip intact along with a perfectly intact biothane strap) a day later. then the 31 year old horse who has been kept in that stall almost 5 years MAgically got lose last night and had to get locked into the empty stall he wondered into... Soo yeah cant wait to get out of that crazy. Odie is gaining weight. convinced BO just cut down his feed to the point of it being hardly a snack. 

Here is a vid of him being a spazz. then he went full arab on me and i still feel confused about it lol!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksS0IWoTs8M

First day at work was AMAZING! My state tax return came in a few days ago but was gone within 48 hours because my master cylinder on my dakota died. the rest of my tax return came into day. think that means my already dead ball joints are gong to crap out on me this week -_-'. All well i can hope they wont at least untill my fiance and mechanic are back in town.


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## Horseychick87

It is amazing how things will just vanish and then show back up isn't it?

Odie looked like he was having fun.  When I heard you call him Odie-O, it made me think of my neighbors English bulldog Otis, I call him Oti-O.

I'm glad work was great, it's always nice when the first day goes well. 
Ugh, I hate having to fix vehicles. Finally got a new car and it had a freaking recall on the transmission, but it was fixed and runs better than it did, but now I'm looking to maybe find something else since it was brand new off the lot and came with issues and still doesn't feel like it drives right...just ugh.


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## KigerQueen

i like my 17 year old dakota. just old and needing things lol! 

Funny thing. day after the magical reappearing bucket Rocket (mr well behaved senior citizen) Managed to "get out on his own" someone said they say his gate open and he bolted. had to corner him in a different stall. Umm his stall is on a downhill and i CANT prop the gate open. unless you are holding it it will close itself. also the only other person who goes in his stall always checks the gate latch when she leaves. sooooo yeah. i call bs.


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## Horseychick87

I want a truck, but I'll have to make due with a car, gas is still not cheap enough for my taste, LOL.

LOL, missing buckets, horses getting out and changing stalls. It sounds like one of the local boarding barns here. I'm glad you'll eventually have your own property and not have to worry about things like that once all moved in.


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## Saddlebag

Kiger, try and find an old wooden table. Secure 1x4's all the way around to form a lip and put the pellets on that, well scattered. It slows the consumption down which means better digestion. My horses seems to enjoy nibbling rather than bolting down their feed. My arab would fill his cheeks like a chipmunk then chew for 10 min if fed with a pail. With all the snow, their grain is scattered in the clean snow. As they move about while nibbling this, they pack down the snow nicely making it easier for me. I'm not dumb.


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## KigerQueen

I will try that if i can. i get to board odie while the others go to BFE. I can actually DO something with odie and he has talent. soo boarding shopping again. but the great thing is that i can be as picky as i want because i dont HAVE to board him (though i kinda do if i want to spend time with horses at all the next year or too.


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## Horseychick87

I've seen what Saddlebags described and they work great. I've also seen people nail 2X2's to an old rubber stall mat as well and use that as it was more portable and could be cut to a specific size much easier than a door or piece of plywood.

Good luck in the barn hunt.


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## KigerQueen

i have found he is not really a bolter when it comes to pellets. there are times ill come out and he still has some pellets left. I also found a place up the road. 4 arenas including a dressage arena, stalls cleaned every day. feed included and they will feed him a little more than i can (and if i pay extra and supply it they will give him lunch too) and 3 round pens. Now i just have to get more weight on him. if you guys hop over to my other thred
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/registered-name-help-680842/page2/
You can see pics of him at the show this weekend. still needs weight but not what i would call skinny. just no muscle and needs a bit more weight. he actually placed so im happy lol!

We also got another stall. well its two actually but turned into one huge stall. we are moving that one too out to bfe and going to put two panels back in it to divide it. then rocket and negra will have a stall out there AND a shade! it will also extend the arena alot more and give them moor room to run around.

Pic of odie just because


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## Yogiwick

You did a great job with all that white!


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## KigerQueen

lol the pain rolled in manure the night before! baby wipes and baby powder! I will always thank my friend for teaching me that! now we are on a weight gain program for him and learning how to stand still and keeping his nose and mouth to him self lol! so far we are up to 20 seconds without trying to take my hat (his "dad" taught him that horrible habbit lol) or pull at my sleeves or pick at the ground lol! progress i think XD!


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## Horseychick87

LOL, nothing like a good roll in the mud right before a show. Congrats on placing with him.


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## KigerQueen

thank you . he was quite smug. 

He got moved today and is quite happy. The BO was floored by how big he is. she had to stand next to him lol!


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## Horseychick87

Nice pictures. he looks happy.


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## KigerQueen

i decided to stop hijacking my own thread and start his own journal thread lol. dont know how much i can do with negra now as crap is going down at my sister in laws again. this time the (insert profane word here) got ahold of my 10 year old niece, dragged her out into the desert and beat her up before they were interrupted. then they left her in a ditch and split. the police sat around, did nothing (seriously we watched them) then said because there were no footprints she must have made it up. yeah a 10 year old gave herself that type of bruising by her self and managed to sprain her ankle that bad by her self. even the doctor thinks some one did it to her and that she could not do that to herself... again police said that because there were no footprints they think she made it up. Umm my 280lb fiance with heady grip work boots did not leave prints. much les a much of teenagers! they left a not as well saying we have your daughter haha! yesterday they left another note saying give us your sons or we will kill your daughter. AND STILL the police are not doing ANYTHING! so yeah thats a thing and cant do much with pony while thats a thing that is happening...


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## SlideStop

Honestly, how much further does this have to go before your sister actually does something?! Get those darn kids OUT of that house before they DO kill one of them! To me she is endangering her children. Maybe they only meant to beat your neice up, but it only takes one fall or one misplaced blow to KILL her!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen

they cant leave and they have nowhere to go. they spent their lifes savings so they could not even sell the place and get their money back. they have looked into it and the bank flat out told them that they will lose more then they will make. so its homeless or stay there. and the kids responsible moved but keep comeing back. Trust me we are well aware of the dangers. but we are at a loss. the police have been called out almost 10 times since november and they have done NOTHING! the kids never leave her sight now and she always has her gun with her. if you lived 25-30 miles outside of town in a good area (was good till the trouble makers rented a house in the area) and spent all your money for your dream home. then were trapped there as you have no money to leave and no where to go?


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## Yogiwick

At this point SOMETHING needs to be done. If the police won't do anything talk to whoever is in charge. Make a huge stink. Call your local government and even not so local and complain about the police not doing anything. The doctor should be able to do something and provide a legal comment that this girl was abused and that he does not believe it was from the parents and the story given is very valid. I can't believe no one is doing anything. A very big fuss needs to happen. Not just call the police and say "oh well they aren't doing anything". They need to get a big dog too. I would call my representative and the state governor as well, or whoever else you have.

As far as Odie I laugh when you go on about his height. 16.2 would make him the smallest at the barn I work at . So different!


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## KigerQueen

they have 2 big dogs but because they cant fence the entire property off yet the dogs are not much help (and the nasties cut up the invisible fence within 12 hours of it being set up so that wont work either). their entier church is up in arms and there are over 15 people (not including us) who have gone to the news. our retired cop friend is also helping us as this is just way out of hand. im just so angry that the sheriff has been called out over 10 times now and this is still even going on!

out here unless you are at an exclusively English barn most horses are 15.2hh and under. the only horse bigger then him there is a Percheron lol! my friend has a jumper who she got at a show barn. he is 15hh and a quarter horse lol! he did well though.


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## Horseychick87

Something would happen to those guys and nobody would ever find out about it if it were me, that said. Try to go higher on the list as Yogi said, state police, then state government and reporters. Make the local police look like they aren't doing anything (which they aren't) and make a huge stink over it. 
The people that moved in, are they renting or did they buy? If they are renting I'd harass the snot out of the landlord until he decided to terminate their lease.

Hopefully the animals will be alright out there.


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## KigerQueen

turns out everyone in the area is afraid of this kid and his old landlord is pressing charges against him for steeling things out of the house two days in a row(they were renting and he did evict them). there are several other people who are also going to press charges against him as well once they get him. the police are now taking it serious now that there are more people getting involved.


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## Horseychick87

Good, people like that need to be locked/ kept away from society if they can't act civilized. Hopefully now that more people are coming out he'll feel the pressure and either move on or get caught and put away.

I hope Negra and you are doing alright.


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## KigerQueen

Long time no post. Negra has been lame on and off since i moved her back to the valley in july. I also noticed her back dropping like it was starting to sway. A friend who dose some equine massage poked at her and said her back is sore. I put some linament on it and she picked it back up to normal. I also noticed something interesting. She became significantly less lame. Same the day after. Yesterday a friend from the track gave me some trainers choice (strong icy hot stuff). She picked het back right up. Turned her out and she ran around bucking rearing and she looked 95% sound in a circle. So i decided to hop on her. And i had my old horse back. No limp. She was incredibly light and she was licking and chewing the entier time. I rode her aroind for 10 min. Hoped off her and my friend from the tracks dad flexed her legs (we where talking about how bad she was when the vet did it over a year ago). She was fine. Her shoulder poped and she loved that lol. So i will get more trainers choice and see. I also have i chiro comeing out in 3 weeks. 

Could it have been her back this entier time?


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## walkinthewalk

Glad you have access to track therapists ---- they can't be beat.

When I rescued my Arab, back in 1993, it was a track PT who told me, along with starving, he had an injured vertebra and I would never be able to trail ride him.

We had a deep river behind the farm, where I boarded. Streeter loved to swim so I would take him back there and swim across the river, alongside of him.

To answer your question ----- I don't know. It is possible the back soreness came along as part of trying to compensate for the hooves. I know when Joker's hooves get sore, it's a domino affect with every injury he has acquired thru the years and I can count on having the chiropractor out.

BTW, I just bought Joker EasyCare's "Rx" boots. I really like them but you have to get your hoof measurements exact. I bought Joker a Size 1, which won't fit by the end of a trim cycle which is four weeks. I will stick his Size 2 Boas back on him that are too big the first few weeks of a trim.

I bought the Rx's at Valley Vet, which is cheaper than at EasyCare. Saved me enough PER BOOT to buy two Farnum fly masks!


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## KigerQueen

her back was bothering her more yesterday and she was more gimpy. took her on a walk instead. lol i handle hills better than she dose XD! she is huffing and puffing and my out of shape self is fine. will put more of the trainers choice back on her again today. im thinking in November i will get another set of xrays as well.


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## Horseychick87

Hmm, interesting about her back, but not totally surprising given her history.
I wonder if you could lunge or long line her in a frame where she has to use her back a bit and say go over some poles if it would help at all. Things like that can be iffy, they can help or hinder depending on what is wrong.
I'm glad to here the Trainer's Choice helped. My old hunter instructor used it on her horses and it worked great for them 'back in the day'.


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## KigerQueen

when i lunge her she drops her head and peanut rolls when i tell her to m"drop it". once she learned she COULD but her head down and trot she dose it at liberty all the time too. gues it feels good. the issue is i cant bring myself to lunge a horse who is obviously lame. it feels cruel though she gets sad when i stop "playing" with her. she stands more normal now though. ere are some pics. you can see what i mean by dip in her back. her back has been more straight after 2+ weeks of the liniment mixed with trainers choice and water (sponged on her back directly). 

the pics where from about 2-3 weeks ago.


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## Horseychick87

(Sorry my replies are so infrequent, I have like one day a week to get online -_- )

Yeah, I know what you mean about lunging a lame horse.
You could just lead her over with a lead rope, my trainer did that with her elderly horses and it worked well, even at a walk. But FL is pretty flat where I'm at so they needed some work to help make up for lack of varying terrain.

Her back does look better. I would not be a bit surprised if she had arthritis in her back at this point in life. It's good to hear she still likes to play and be active.


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## KigerQueen

so i cried today. Stable Hands (a equine message group) came out today. (no chiro just the message this time). i had NO idea how messed up this poor mare was. first off her hind end was so out of wack and tense it was rock solid. her hamstrings were so tight that as soon as the worked them loose she held her tail way in the air for 20 min. the tendons in all 4 legs are way tight as well. i turned her out and so moved SO stifly after. they told me to leave her out for a while to get the lactic acid moveing and out of her muscles. turned her out with Notty for a bit. note how quiet i am in the vid. i was starting to cry.


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## KigerQueen

question. what can cause tendons in all 4 legs to become super tight? im starting to think thats why she failed the flexion test for the lameness exam. if her tendons are so tight its causing her to stand funny it would be painful for her to have them flexed (and Stable hands told me NOT to stretch things with how she is for fear of causing damage).


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## Horseychick87

Any number of things could cause that really. I do bet that's why she failed her test though.
she most likely is compensating for pain in another area and it's putting strain on her tendons, navicular can cause a tightness as well. If a vet gives the okay, maybe you can do poultice and liniments if you're not already?


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## KigerQueen

i need a second opinion but my list of vets gets smaller and smaller each year. i may have to start looking at track vets. my vet thinks navicular from a flex test and a hoof test (he test so hard though he can make a sound horse lame). alot of people question the x rays as well. i do NOT think its navicular at all. the lameness dose not act like it. he also said it was both fronts but she is now only lame in one. im having the girls come out for a second visit next week. negra has been ALOT better since her first session. im still using the liniment. will look into other options. im now trying to think how i can warm her tendons up without working too hard.


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## trailhorserider

I could be totally wrong, and of course you know your horse best, but I didn't think she looked lame or particularly stiff in the last video. (Actually, I thought the horse in the background looked a little "off" at the start of the video. )

Arabians do trot a little posty when they are showing off. But I'm assuming you are familar with seeing them trot, right? My first and second horses were Arabians and they really kind of do a stiff legged trot (and sort of float) when at liberty. That's what I thought I saw with Negra. But of course, I don't know her like you do. But I really didn't see anything alarming about the video. It could be that I'm just not good at catching that kind of subtle lameness. That's entirely possible.

Best of luck with her. inkunicorn:


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## KigerQueen

thats the point of the last vid. she is looking SOOO much better. here is the comparison

about a year ago





After Message






Before this all happened


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## KigerQueen

i think negra has been sound 2 days in the past 2 weeks. so far she has been off on her front (right or left) and now her back end (right or left) today it seams BOTH stifles are swollen (no heat though) and she was hobbling around. i have gone though so much liniment and she has gotten bute the last 3 days. will have a long talk with my vet on the 2nd when he is out for odie. if this is something that cant be managed i will have to put her down. i cant look at her every day and see her limping around. its just cruel.


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## trailhorserider

Gosh Kiger, I am so sorry to hear she's doing poorly. I hope she makes a positive turnaround in short order. I would hate to hear that you had to euthanize her. :icon_frown:

Wishing you both the best of luck. :hug:


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## KigerQueen

she has been a 4-5 on the lameness scale on and off for 2 weeks. first it was the left front. then the right front, then back to the left. then her back left was bothering her. then her back right. last night it seamed BOTH back legs were off but the right being the worst and she stood for 45 min without standing on it. fluid build up on BOTH stifles. no heat. I have NO idea what she is doing. she is somewhat on stall rest though her stall is more of a penn. all she dose is wonder in circles intermittently. a friend who works at the track checks up on her and he spots her lameness even before i take her out of her stall. i dont know what to do. im pulling my hair out.


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## Yogiwick

Liniment only does so much, I wouldn't consider it a treatment by any means.

Definitely have the vet examine her.

I know you put the old guy on Previcox...have you tried Negra on that?


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## KigerQueen

yes but it did not give the same drastic improvement to her as it did him. im going to try it again but the fact the lameness is moveing from front to back and is so severe is what's concerning me. one day she is running around like a loon. a few days later she is 3 legged lame, then the next day she is fine, the fallowing she is not, lame for days, then fine , then lame and so on and fo forth. with NOTHING changing! it not cold out. we are still in the 90s. i have been turning her out less to see if that helps, and there is no change. on the same food she has been on for a year. physically she looks amazing. she has the shiniest winter coat i have ever seen. for spending most her time in the sun she s jet black. her mane is now past her elbow. she has thick strong hooves that make me and my fiance cry to trim. and yet here we are with a horse constantly in pain. 

i am going to owe my vet upwards of $700 by the end of wednesday... 

we will try privacox with her again. bute dose nothing for her. she was fine today though still off on the back end, just not "my leg is broken but the other might be too" lame like last night. im hoping for good news. she may be 20 (vet and i argue that he thinks she is 16-17) but she has ALOT of life left in her. i kills me to see her all full of arab energy to take off and gimp so bad she just slowly wonders around even though you can tell she just wants to run. 

and losing hours at work is makeing this all that much harder on me. its going to cost me $60 extra a month for privacox for both horses. seams like a drop in the bucket but it adds up. then there is odie and his weirdness going on that just adds to it.

When it rains it pours right? the storm will pass. but it feels like the world is flooding.


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## CaliforniaDreaming

Has she been blocked to determine if the pain is in her legs for sure or if she's just presenting that way?

I know what you mean about watching gimpy horses move. My senior mare was diagnosed with DSLD. Her right front pastern/fetlock is totally gnarly, her left front is starting to look puffy and the hinds flex doooooooooown hard when she steps and are starting to drop. I have to bite her pretty heavily for the farrier to trim her since she can hardly bear weight on the right if he's working on any of the other legs, but she gets along fine with Devils Claw otherwise. She navigates her paddock like a boss though, just moves around nice and slow. The vet was glad I've got her in a 24' x 72' pen as she needs to be out and moving, and I take her out for very slow grazing walks. She's not sound, that's for sure. But she's still happy, gaining some weight and loves her sunbath nappies and was out wallowing like a pig in the mud after yesterday's rain. Sometimes watching her walk makes me cringe, but I'm measuring her condition by her ability to stand after she's been down and so far, she's doing that fine. She's got it pretty good. I only wish I could pony her, but she can't keep up and usually starts limping badly so I won't put her through that. 

When you say you're doing less turnout, does Negra still have a sufficient amount of pen space? I couldn't imagine what it would be like for my mare if she was in a 12 x 24 mare motel (and even a 24 x 24 might be too small) and being an Arab, your girl's probably got that pent up energy that she needs to move and when she gets turnout, it's like boom, GO! and that might be making it worse for her lameness. Is she still able to move around enough without the turnout?


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## KigerQueen

yeah her stall could fit 2 17hh tbs in it (barely but they where fine for a cuple of months). its more like a 35ish by 20ish (its more of a pen). she always wonders about in it.

as for lameness i fell its in her hips and back, but the swelling of stifles concerns me. ill post a vid of how bad she looks on and off in a bit. i hear it from everyone. i dont know how people dont think i dont know she is off. its not like i dont spend 5 hours a day with the horses or anything, or see her 2xs a day.


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## KigerQueen

here is how gimpy she was on the 21st. she was FINE the next day, then 3 legged lame again the fallowing. 
she is in her "stall" in this vid so you can get the size of it better


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## Horseychick87

Poor Negra.

I can't remember if it's been asked / done. But have you had her impar ligament checked along with her DDFT and suspensory ligaments? I know typically damage to these areas only show up well with a MRI or ultrasound in some cases.

I certainly hope she begins to feel better soon.


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## KigerQueen

So vet rechecked her and her tendons. Was diagnosed with DSLD. She is not dropping but she has soreness and alot of inflimation in all 4 deep flexor tendons. So privacox more agressive trimmings a hope and a prayer.


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## CaliforniaDreaming

KigerQueen said:


> So vet rechecked her and her tendons. Was diagnosed with DSLD. She is not dropping but she has soreness and alot of inflimation in all 4 deep flexor tendons. So privacox more agressive trimmings a hope and a prayer.


I got one of those. She will have her good days and her bad days. Really not much you can do for that disease since it's basically uncurable, just pain management and playing it by ear.


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## KigerQueen

how do i manage it so she has more good days than bad? i was told to avoid deep sand (so limited arena turn out) and mild work so i am going to take her for walks. giving her msm though as my vet said the benefits for DSLD are inconclusive (but wont hurt her so might as well). and of coarse she is on privacox


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## KigerQueen

what do you all think on this
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_GlW1kAoAAwf2L1pNLonDWLoxFZojKvavzUtyEhmImI/edit

also if a mod can update to "Negras Navicular **Update Its DSLD**" that would be fantastic!


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## CaliforniaDreaming

KigerQueen said:


> how do i manage it so she has more good days than bad? i was told to avoid deep sand (so limited arena turn out) and mild work so i am going to take her for walks. giving her msm though as my vet said the benefits for DSLD are inconclusive (but wont hurt her so might as well). and of coarse she is on privacox


I generally avoid turnout altogether, my mare has a big enough pen she can move around in, and it's long rather than wide so she gets real travel space. Since she's so familiar with the area, she knows not to do crazy things like try and run around in there. I did take her to the round pen yesterday to see if she wanted to roll, but she didn't do we just went back to our walk. 

Her walks are slow, letting her choose the pace and usually involve grazing. She's barefoot, with a short toe and easy breakover, but requires Bute on trim days. On other days, she gets Devils Claw and Yucca. I've tried ponying, but it doesn't go well, so I don't do that anymore. It helps for me that I do self care and can see my mare twice (if not three times) a day and can judge how she is on any given day. She generally will have more good days than bad, but some days looks really gimpy, but still wants her butt scratches and cookies. Overall, she's living a pretty retired life, and seems pretty content with it. 

I figure she's going to let me know when it is time to go. 

Definitely do plenty of reading. I've been doing a lot of research, and ran across the study that Dr Kellon is doing. I've heard mixed reviews on it, and haven't decided whether I'd commit to it or not, but it might be something worth considering.


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## KigerQueen

she is in a stall. a large on but she is by herself and board. i turn her out on the grass field with her buddy and they slowly meander about and eat. not allowing her to run at all (more so for an arab who loves to run) makes me call into question her quality of life. i als need to get her her own salt since im giving her mineral salt and that has iron in it.


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## Yogiwick

What exactly did the vet do to diagnose?


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## KigerQueen

palpated all 4 legs and flexed. her joints are fantastic but she dis not pass a flex test. and he palpated her tendons she almost when down. the more he messed with them the more she just tried to lay down. it obviously hurt.


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## Yogiwick

I meant to add- I'm sorry I won't be any help, I've dealt with horses with DSLD, but none were acutely lame like that. In fact I knew some really bad ones that were perfectly sound (not worked hard of course), I hope that makes you feel better.

This link is interesting:
DSLD/ESPA Symptoms, Diagnosis and Management.

I'm surprised he didn't do more for diagnostics. I remember thinking it was suspensory related in the beginning, wonder if it's been the same thing just building up all along.


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## KigerQueen

her tendons are all swollen and tender. im thinking of doing a blood test but i dont know what more i can do diagnostic wise. i know a cuple of DSLD horses and one is given bute daily for at least 5 years. another is in her stall 99.9% of her time. maybe turned out once every 2 months... yeah not happy ponies. now is there some sort of blood test or hair test i can have done to solidify the diagnosis?


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> her tendons are all swollen and tender. im thinking of doing a blood test but i dont know what more i can do diagnostic wise. i know a cuple of DSLD horses and one is given bute daily for at least 5 years. another is in her stall 99.9% of her time. maybe turned out once every 2 months... yeah not happy ponies. now is there some sort of blood test or hair test i can have done to solidify the diagnosis?


I believe the standard test is to u/s, then also xray to look for secondary issues. I don't think there is a genetic test yet though there is a genetic link.

There are definitely options other the bute when it needs to be given daily, and keeping a horse in I understand is NOT wanted for this condition. I think it largely comes down to management look at good long term pain relief (not bute) and I've heard of some anti inflammatory supplements working wonders.

Do check out the link I posted, I thought it was very thorough, how to shoe, how to manage the horse, things you can do for the legs. I would definitely be doing all of that stuff and trying to get her out of the stage she's in now. There's so much more you can do then just medicate.


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## KigerQueen

she went from lame to forward and trying to out run me on a walk in 1 day with privacox so i feel its promising. she was sound yesterday too so will keep her on privacox. vet said 1/4 tab daily for 30 days then every other day. will see if we can back it down to a cuple of times a week by 3 months. and im almost on break ill check the link out asap.


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## Yogiwick

That's GREAT news! Check with your vet but as you try to taper back it may be worth looking into something herbal as day to day back up, healthier for her and cheaper for you.


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## KigerQueen

ok yes i have seen the link you sent. thats where i got the study that i asked about from. i want to ultrasound her legs but i dont have over 1k to do that and my normal vet dose not have an ultrasound machine.


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## KigerQueen

Flex test of fetlock joints, ultrasound of suspensories. Dsld horses will fail the flex test in two or more legs.
Palpation of suspensories will find them to be very hard & taunt, maybe lumpy from calcification or could be mushy. Pain response is also noted. Enlarged suspensories and the branches will be evident in cases that have progressed. 

this is how he diagnosed her. her tendons feel like broom handles. there is NO elasticity. trying to get any movement out of them is like trying to get movement out of her cannon bone. 
and if you gently squeese or touch her tendons on all 4 legs she tries to pull away or fall over. and when he flex tested all 4 legs she nearly fell over.


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## CaliforniaDreaming

Yogiwick, I remember running across that link when my vet told me to research DSLD. Going through the list of symptoms was like a checklist, hitting every thing and saying "yup". We also did the nuchal ligament biopsy to verify that yes, my mare's got it. My vet made a number of recommendations, one of which was keeping her light on the hoof, barefoot, and short toe with easy break over. My farrier gives a bit of a rocker to her toe as well which helps her break over and she is able to navigate her corral comfortably by taking her time and walking slow. I only need to give her Bute on the days she is due for a trim since she can't comfortably bear weight on the bad leg while the good front leg is being worked on, but otherwise, she has Devils Claw as a recommendation of my vet (dealing with a cribber with a history of ulcers so we wanted to avoid Bute as a daily regimen)

She still has her share of gimpy days, but her good days tend to out number the bad and she is comfortable enough walking out to get grass. Her riding days are over, but she's still plenty happy. Her corral is by one of the ranch roads and people always ride by so she likes to people (and horse watch). Hopefully (and I remain optimistic about things) Negra will be the same way.


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## KigerQueen

im hoping so. she LOVES to run and the more she could not the more depressed she got. she is also in a stall away from the other horses (mane and tail eater) so that did not make her too happy. but i can turn her out on the grass (its a small area. maybe 60x70 space) with her buddy and they just walk and graze.


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## KigerQueen

so negra was pacing and was busy so i turned her out with rocket. she took off across the arena then slowly meandered around for an hour. i decided to take her on a walk to a local stable and chat with a friend. she was forward and quite happy. then there was the return trip.... yeah she pranced and tried to trot the ENTIRE WAY HOME! all not even 1/4 mile of it lol. needless to say she feels FANTASTIC. and she has only had 3 doses of privacox. er tendons dont seam as hard so that's good. her typical spazzy arab selfe is comeing back and i dont know if im prepared for the fire breathing dragon that's lurking beneath the surface. pray for me ****!


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## Smilie

KigerQueen said:


> what do you all think on this
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_GlW1kAoAAwf2L1pNLonDWLoxFZojKvavzUtyEhmImI/edit
> 
> also if a mod can update to "Negras Navicular **Update Its DSLD**" that would be fantastic!


I have heard of Dr kellon;s Jiaogulan study. Maybe enrole Negra?


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## KigerQueen

im thinking about it. im going to have negras blood tested to see what comes up as well. my issue is the ultrasound that the study calls for. i dont know of a vet that can do that and i REALLY dont want to trailer her to a clinic (the only clinic i KNOW that can do it charges a ridiculous amount of money for anything. and they make ALOT of mistakes). i can see if i can get a hold of a track Vet as they may have something.


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> im thinking about it. im going to have negras blood tested to see what comes up as well. my issue is the ultrasound that the study calls for. i dont know of a vet that can do that and i REALLY dont want to trailer her to a clinic (the only clinic i KNOW that can do it charges a ridiculous amount of money for anything. and they make ALOT of mistakes). i can see if i can get a hold of a track Vet as they may have something.


I would assume a track vet would have an u/s machine...

Did you find a blood test for DSLD?


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## KigerQueen

the blood test is too see her iron level. DSLD horses have a high buildup of iron and sometimes low magnesium. so if she is DSLD her iron levels should at lease be SLIGHTLY elevated.


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## KigerQueen

well looks like the study may be out of the question. the study wants before ultrasounds and then another set 6 months later. im looking at $260 PER LEG! that is almost an entire paycheck! and unlike my normal vet the clinics dont do payments so there is no way i can afford that. and even if i could my family is lecturing me on how "stupid" it is to "waste" that much money on an old horse. i can see that but 20 is not old for an arab. she is not even getting gray on her face yet. but she seems quite happy with the msm and privacox. has not been gimpy since. a little off at the trot here and there but not like it was. i still want blood work though. 

is there ANYTHING else that is like DSLD (symptom wise without the fetlocks dropping)? i have had two VERY different diagnosis from the same vet within a year. is there something that i can test for with blood work or even a hair test? i am tired of 5 min of palpation, hoof testers and a flex test for my answers. love my vet but when it comes for things that are NOT run of the mill... he is an amazing vet but he is being spread too thin as of late,


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## SlideStop

If you don't want to drop a boat load of money I'd stop the quest for answers. If she is comfortable on the Previcox an MSM, let her be. When that's not enough any more think about sending her over rainbow bridge. At 20 years old is she ever going to be sound? Doubtful at this point. Maybe it time to live and let live.


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## KigerQueen

i agree and yet i dont. if i belived my vet i would still be treating my mare for navicular and NOT dsld. she could have a tick born disease for all i know, something like lyme. i want something other than 5 min of moving her leg and poking at her and going "yep its this". she has improved but paint killers can mask an issue and trick you ito thinking you have the answer. i dont care if what she has is curable or not i just want to know im treating the right thing.


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## Wallaby

You read about how there's a type of DSLD where the fetlocks don't drop, right?


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## SlideStop

But that would require you spending money on expensive testing. If you spend $260 on an ultra sounds it's not DSLD, then will you drop the money for a blood test AND treatment? Or what if it's a combo of two things? Or if its none of thee above? Personally I'd just treat her symptoms until they become unmanageable. 

That said, I do commend you for sticking with her. I know a lot of people would have tossed in the towel.


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## Yogiwick

If you were around here I would be POSITIVE it was Lyme


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## natisha

Yogiwick said:


> If you were around here I would be POSITIVE it was Lyme


You make a good point. There could be some low grade infection somewhere. Maybe a course of SMZ's would be worth a try, can't hurt.


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## Smilie

Won't hurt to test for lymes, and won't break the bank

Lymes does present like arthritis, with alternating lameness on various legs
Other then that, at her age, I would work on managing symptoms
IR horses also have an iron over load, so not definitive for DSLD


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## Yogiwick

natisha said:


> You make a good point. There could be some low grade infection somewhere. Maybe a course of SMZ's would be worth a try, can't hurt.


Good idea, though if Lyme/tickborn would probably need something far more "heavy duty".

Around here we usually do a month Doxycycline then 1 month Tetracycline....fun.


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## KigerQueen

the first case of lyme in az was only a couple of years ago so it may not be lyme but it wont hurt to test. a blood test will tell me hor blood cell count ( would indicate infection) high iron levels may not be dsld but IR is an easy test to do (two fasting blood tests). i am willing to spend some money if i can make payments. i might see if he can do a tendon biopsi as that's a more definite way to rule it out.


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## KigerQueen

so vet is fired. after so many incorrect diagnosis i have gotten from him (other horse did NOT have canker, just bad thrush from standing in his crap right after he craps) im on a vet hunt. had an old time horseman come out to put pads on the gelding and he looked at her legs there was no swelling or sensitivity. she moves like its up in her shoulder. hoof tested her and no issues. my vet is know for hoof testing sound horses to be lame and leave bruising. thinking he did something similar to her legs. also not happy he charged me a full lameness exam for poking at 2 legs for less than 5 min while she was tied to the hitching post... and a full dental exam for checking the gelding mouth to verify nothing was STUCK in there. but i digress

Im going to say negra dose NOT have DSLD. msm and privacox has made her a new horse and there is no dropping of tendons, no swelling and honestly no lameness. also she went from Navicular to DSLD within 5 min sooooo....
i just said what ever and trned her out with rocket. if she damages herself if she has dsld then she had fun doing it. at this point keeping her confined is driving her mad and she is trying desperately to break out of her stall. it is now chained on both sides of the gate to prevent her from busting the hinges. so i just let her run. and amazingly she AND rocket where not even sore the day after this spazz attack.


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## KigerQueen

So we finally FINALY have an answer. Negra has nothing wrong with her legs or feet. It is in her neck. Had a ompitant vet out. She had see this type of injury before. She papated and when she pushed on her lower eck negra nearly jumped out of her skin and had a horrible grimmace on her face. The injury wont effect neck movement per say. Negra dose 90% of her head turing in her poll to avoid agrivating her lower neck. It has caused a neuropathy like issue and thats why the lameness is hard to pinpoint. It is also causing her to have random lameness in her back end as well. So we will try gabapintin and privacox with a joint supliment. She may be ridable but i wil not hold my breath on that. At least i have an answer that makes sence. Mods if we can change it to "Negras Navicular- Mystery Solved" i would be very greatfull.


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## Yogiwick

KigerQueen said:


> So we finally FINALY have an answer. Negra has nothing wrong with her legs or feet. It is in her neck. Had a ompitant vet out. She had see this type of injury before. She papated and when she pushed on her lower eck negra nearly jumped out of her skin and had a horrible grimmace on her face. The injury wont effect neck movement per say. Negra dose 90% of her head turing in her poll to avoid agrivating her lower neck. It has caused a neuropathy like issue and thats why the lameness is hard to pinpoint. It is also causing her to have random lameness in her back end as well. So we will try gabapintin and privacox with a joint supliment. She may be ridable but i wil not hold my breath on that. At least i have an answer that makes sence. Mods if we can change it to "Negras Navicular- Mystery Solved" i would be very greatfull.


It's interesting though how she's reacted to pretty much everything done in some way or another. I get that things with the spine can do that but she seems pretty extreme... :/

Do keep us updated on how she does with her new game plan!


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## KigerQueen

one of the clinical signs on the lower neck injury is forelimb lameness without reason. and since she was used for horse tripping i think neck and back paint is a thing.

Diagnosing Equine Neck Conditions | TheHorse.com


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## Horseychick87

I'm glad to hear you finally have a diagnosis.


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## Yogiwick

Did she react on her neck during the massage?


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## KigerQueen

a bit but i thought it was because she was tense all over.


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## Yogiwick

Let us know how she continues to do!


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## KigerQueen

well the pharmacy where being less the helpfull and never called me when the prescription was ready. And i cant get it now because i live in a Right to Work state and have found myself jobless so yay to that.


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