# One sided - UPDATE and more



## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

Finally brought my camera outside with me today it was nice out. Wish i had some one to video us riding today. So i have a few things going on here. please read all. 

I tried the suggestion on putting all my weight on the side she has trouble with and we got her lead correct two out of 5 times today so i guess thats an improovment. I have to get a new farrier out and look at her . I took photos of her legs / hooves today and they really are totally diff. shapes and maybe thats a BIG contributant to this. The side she has the problem with (solid side not the socks side) , That hoof has a higher heel and different shape than the other one . I think that can be the cause of all this.. Im going to post all the pics and videos i took today.

The videos are warm ups before i got on her and after he being off for about 4 days. Hence the head in the air not paying attention at all. The horse youll hear screaming in the backround is luna screaming at the neighbors gelding . lol it's quiet embarrising what a ***** luna is lol.

I included pics of her scabs on her front tendons and the scabs on one of her hind legs . Does any one know what that is?

Some angles make her look gross and idk why. The tacked up walk trot ones make her look icky so please no comments shes really not thin. 

I also put some after work photos in here. Is she sweating in the correct spots? Theres some dry spots where the saddle goes but i think its from the half pad, am i wrong?

thanks every one. you've all been so helpful latley.

I didn't want to do a gazillion topics in all diff sections.
shes had these scabs since ive got her. i've used betadine and aloe and every kind of shampoo and conditioner out there nothing at all has helped.





























New confo shots, well kind of lol.




























the solid colored hoof looks to me like the heel is still much much higher . this is the one shes 'favoring' ground isnt the most level .




























10.









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13. i tried to get her to stand square i swear lol










more comming please hold. lol


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

14









15


























































































all done










*Please again, the tacked up longeing photos she looks skinny. look at the others posted. shes actually at a pretty healthy weight finally. i'd like to get another 20 lbs on her though. just because id rather her ribs covered more.*

*videos comming next*


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

I'm going to repeat myself again. These are warm up videos and it was a bit windy. She was looking into the woods and wasent paying much attention. she hasent been out in about 4 days as well. its hard videoing and lounging at the same time , i only have 2 hands lol.

ignore my ***** horse in the backround screaming





 





 

only video i got on her bad side i didn't want to push it. you can see how she favors this side.





 
ok all done now.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

what I see is that your horse looks lame in the second video. Her feet do look like they need done- what is with that huge crack on her left front? I'd say that you do need a farrier out but more importantly a vet check. She doesn't look totally sound. Also, just an FYI, horse's feet are not supposed to be symmetrical, all four feet usually have some variation to them. I don't know, I don't think there is a huge difference in her heel height but it is hard to tell with the different coloring.

Good luck with your girl, I hope you get her issues sorted.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

farrier was just here last sunday and thats when she started acting up. the crack has been notched thats the hole you see above the crack . it keeps it from proceeding up higher. i think the problem foot's heel is too high but i told him that and he said no. so im going to get a different farrier out in 6 weeks and see what he says. He's supposed to be a specialist (the new guy im going to try) so i guess we shall see.

as for being lame, shes not. she always acts like a giraffe on the lunge when she hasent been out in a few days.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't think she needs more weight, but I think like Mercedes said in the previous thread, she needs a LOT of muscle. I could be seeing things (my eyes are amateur!), but I don't think she's using her back/hind end properly at all and that could be the reason why shes favoring her front end and also why she might be so sore up there. I don't think you're doing her any favors by asking her to canter without the proper muscle and without using herself properly.

I second telamutt's observations. In all of the videos as she comes down on her front left, she bobs.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

it isn't her head carriage that bothers me, it is her bobbing. Lameness is often very difficult to spot, even to the trained eye. Since her problem fits well with a lameness I would personally have her evaluated by a vet.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

I think that he cut her too short on that left front . but i posted to see if any one else sees any other possible contributants. So i am open to hear it all. Shes my world and shes the best horse i've ever worked with . I'll be retiring her when she hits 20. shes turning 18 in may. we've worked too hard to quit now.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

It actually looks more like a hind end lameness to me. But if it is front end, the head bobs on the sound leg, which would mean her right front is the problem. Lameness is really, really hard to localize from a video. Usually the trotting is done to get an over all "feel" for whether the horse is sound or not and then flexion tests and hoof testing done to localize anything that "feels" off from watching them move.

I hope you're not reading my posts as being snarky or rude, I feel the same way about my boy and would be trying hard to find answers too! I'm just sharing what I know with you since we're studying equine lameness right now. I feel like I've watched a hundred million lame horses in the last few weeks!! I'm still learning this stuff, but I do feel she is lame and that you should have her soundness evaluated by a pro.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

Not at all, im trying to take everything in now , i used to get defensive and still do, its a bad habit ive always had my whole life. I apprechiate the tips. I'm actually going to get the new farrier out the 2nd week of next month, hes supposed to be a hoof specialist. if he cant help then the vets next on the list =] im wanting him to come out anyway and look at those scabby things that wont go away.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

If you're not going to have the vet out for a while then you should quit riding and lungeing her untill the vet has seen her. She is definately lame but it's hard to tell where. If you notice on the video her stride is really short and choppy and her head bobbs at the trot. I would not ride her with the heels that unbalanced either. I agree with your farrier that the taller heel is not too long but the other heel is too short. If she were my horse I would have had front shoes put on and wedged the low heel. The problem with taking rescue horses is that someone thought they should be sent to slaughter and you don't always know why. When your vet or farrier comes out you should ask if there are signs that she has been "nerved" due to navicular. It may be time to retire her regardless of your timetable. I definatley would stop jumping her she is just not going to be sound enough.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well i asked him to shoe her all around to see if that helped and he said she didnt need to so he advised not to shoe her for her best intrest. but i think she should have shoes on i wanted to do some trial and error, start with all 4. then just fronts and see what helps.

the only info i have from her prev. owner is after she raced she was a brood mare untill i got her. never was a riding horse. and i didnt know that untill about 9 months into having her. never would have known. she was 80% normal despite some cross tie issues and rearing lol.


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## thunderhooves (Aug 9, 2009)

sure....rearing is so normal.......... anyway, there may be a reason she was a brood mare. I agree with kevinshorses


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

you can't trust a previous owner. My horse was given up for bogus reasons which I was able to get to the bottom of, only because I have a hospital filled with board certified practitioners in every area of equine health at my finger tips. Oddly enough my case was the opposite of most- they said he had this problem and that problem when really they just wanted a cheap, guilt free way of getting rid of him to make way for new stock.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

thunderhooves said:


> sure....rearing is so normal.......... anyway, there may be a reason she was a brood mare. I agree with kevinshorses


HENCE why i said 80% normal... and yes rearing IS normal behavior for most track horses...

when she couldent concieve any more they sold her to a man in nj to be a riding horse.... i guess she didn't like him and he sent her to the auction. the orig owners were shocked.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> HENCE why i said 80% normal... and yes rearing IS normal behavior for most track horses...


I need a bag of popcorn. 

Rearing is NEVER 'normal' behavior. Unless specifically trained, rearing is an unwillingness to be forward.

Let me repeat what I said in the original thread:

Your horse is in a serious way physically. She needs attention from healthcare professionals. She needs to be rehabbed and even after all that is said and done....8-12 months later...she's going to be limited in her usefulness.

She's used up. Her body has been abused about as much as it can be.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> HENCE why i said 80% normal... and yes rearing IS normal behavior for most track horses...
> 
> when she couldent concieve any more they sold her to a man in nj to be a riding horse.... i guess she didn't like him and he sent her to the auction. the orig owners were shocked.


My guy has never reared on a lunge line. Ever. He was on the track for eight years and had plenty of wins on his race card. If he ever tried to rear, I wouldn't accept it as something he "just does"...He'd have the lunge whip so far up his butt it wouldn't come out until he moved forward.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

i never said she reared on the lunge. she never did. she reared once in xties and twice when i got on her , and only bucked once. then never again. shes been an angel since. i didn't beat her or whip her or anything . just talk to her everytime we work. shes more than happy to do what i ask. i thought the rearing was a normal behavior as she was, now that i do know and look back, not a riding horse she was probably confused.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> HENCE why i said 80% normal... and yes rearing IS normal behavior for most track horses...
> 
> when she couldent concieve any more they sold her to a man in nj to be a riding horse.... i guess she didn't like him and he sent her to the auction. the orig owners were shocked.


Rearing is not normal regardless of discipline. I also think it's quite possible that the man in NJ sent her to the auction because she was lame and he couldn't get her sound.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

one month would not be long enough to try to get her sound being thats all he had her for. she was sold in sept 08 and i bought her oct 11th 08.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

It would be long enough to tell she isn't sound and to go to the vet and find out why. I wouldn't keep a horse any longer than a month if it was lame when I got it.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

well everyones different. idc what her diagnosis is shes not going anywhere. I had her vetted three times, two different vets, since ive had her and shes had her feet done regularly. i think if she were lame some one would have said something.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

She's lame in your video regardless of what any vet said.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

you do realize the ground is divetted and frozen here right...


hold on idk why the link is not working


GInger Counter Clock Wise Video by .:The One And Only Princess:. - MySpace Video


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Am I the only one who noticed she's cantering on the wrong lead in the "bad side" video? :-|

I agree, mostly, with the other posters. I honestly don't know if she's "lame" persay, but I almost entirely agree with the "completely used up" statement. She's stiff absolutely everywhere. This is probably a lot worse then just being lame, because I highly doubt this animal will ever make a good riding horse, especially given her age. You may bring her around for light trail riding, but in my honest opinion, it's borderline cruel to try and make her into something she's not at her age. She's had a long hard life to begin with, much less learning how to be an athletic riding horse at the ripe old age of 18.

Take it easy on her. The old girl is just beat up, down and out and wanting some TLC.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

okay its not working this is really frustrating



> Am I the only one who noticed she's cantering on the wrong lead in the "bad side" video?
> 
> ​


thats the point to the thred.. she dosent pick the correct lead up 1.2 the time


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Don't bother. I'm done with this thread!


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

i cant get the ones of her playing with luna to upload but i have these
these are from oct on non frozen ground.


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

Ok, work with me here bp. Stand up, rotate your pelvis forward as far as you can until your lower back starts hurting and your belly is sticking out. Now, I want you to stick your midsection out to the left and lean most of your weight onto your left leg. Pull your head back so the muscles along the front of your neck start to ache. Now, do this for about 10 years, pop out a baby or two, carry about 20% of your weight on your back while jumping over some fences, and you will understand exactly why your horse has an off side. Not only that, but once that weight distribution is that off for that long, it is very common for hooves to be different sizes.

That is why I said in the other post to hold your weight to the left side, to block the barrel and give room for that hind leg to come forward, to allow her to bend to that side. Its a long time holding pattern that has taken its toll on her body. To say "not using her hind end properly" isn't even skimming the top on this one.... her body is shot. I personally would go back to slow even groundwork with her. I wouldn't even lunge her any faster than a walk and would spend more time long reining and hand walking. I'm personally surprised she's lasted this long.

I consult with vets about a lot of things, but I know rehab trainers that I have worked with that have solved problems that have left vets stumped. A farrier is not going to fix her body. A vet is not going to be able to fix that body. The problems are so deep in there that to make that horse truly rideable again would take a long time of dedicated, skilled, slow work with an expert eye and expert hand. If I were you and did not have the resources to begin the rehabilitation process on this horse, I would retire her. The fact that she didn't pick up the left lead would be the least of my concerns, as her body is screaming in every other way. I'm sorry if I sound harsh with this, but I work with rehabilitation on a daily basis, and I know that to truly solve any problem, you have to fix it at its source. All you are seeing right now are the symptoms. Good luck.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> well everyones different. idc what her diagnosis is shes not going anywhere. I had her vetted three times, two different vets, since ive had her and shes had her feet done regularly. i think if she were lame some one would have said something.


I don't think anyone is suggesting you "get rid" of her or that she go anywhere. Simply, she is not sound, she is unlikely to become sound, it is not ok to use her in the condition she is in especially for jumping.

Yes you love your horse, but given her history, she is going to have to be your pasture buddy most likely. Having foals is very hard on mare's bodies, racing is hard on any horse's body. You need to see that this is not a "she's off" issue. It's a "she's very unsound" issue.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

My bad. I didn't see your other topic about this and didn't realize when you stated up top that it was the reason you were posting - I thought you were concerned with her looking ouchy.

As a note, the scars on her legs could be from firing. Which means she's had tendon problems in the past.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

firing is ueually tiny holes and more than one isnt it? ive seen pixs of pinfiring before the looked like tiny dots in a verticle line.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> firing is ueually tiny holes and more than one isnt it? ive seen pixs of pinfiring before the looked like tiny dots in a verticle line.


You are correct. This is not pin-firing or cryro markings. It is dermatosis (a disease of the skin) caused my auto-immune issues, frequently seen on older/sickly/physically stressed horses.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

ive used betadine and conditioner and shampood it daily all summer and it never went away.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> ive used betadine and conditioner and shampood it daily all summer and it never went away.


What part of my last post did you not understand? I said it's related to AUTO-IMMUNE issues. How is betadine, conditioner and shampoo going to correct an auto-immune system issue? Go do some research.

She's old, used up, and her body is struggling to keep going.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

explain what you mean by auto-immune.. shes had bloods done.. shes seen a vet.. she was on anti biotics for a respitory infection when i first got her , and meds 2 months ago for a hematoma. the meds she was on both times were broad spectrum and if this was a infection if would have cleared up. so please do explain. stop getting nasty. if you dont want to be bothered stop visiting this topic.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

I do believe you have access to the internet. Pull up Google and go research it. I'm not here to write a book for you. Time for you to show more than a passing interest in your horse's welfare.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

Dermatological problems are very difficult to diagnose in person, let alone from a picture on the internet. They often require biopsy to be certain of the cause and even then results are likely to be inconclusive. Response to treatment is more often than not the means of coming to a presumptive diagnosis.

As for auto-immune disorders, first of all this term is often thrown around and rarely used correctly. They infrequently present as a discrete lesion and most certainly cannot be diagnosed from one picture seen on the internet. Your best bet for this gal is to have a trained medical professional (DVM) examine her, both for her soundness problems and for the skin issue.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

thanks =D . She's going to be off , as in left alone, untill i get the vet and farrier out to see her =]. thanks for all the help guys , i apprechiate it.


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## Mercedes (Jun 29, 2009)

tealamutt said:


> Dermatological problems are very difficult to diagnose in person, let alone from a picture on the internet. They often require biopsy to be certain of the cause and even then results are likely to be inconclusive. Response to treatment is more often than not the means of coming to a presumptive diagnosis.
> 
> As for auto-immune disorders, first of all this term is often thrown around and rarely used correctly. They infrequently present as a discrete lesion and most certainly cannot be diagnosed from one picture seen on the internet. Your best bet for this gal is to have a trained medical professional (DVM) examine her, both for her soundness problems and for the skin issue.


Been there, done that. Seen this. Seen the horse. Not rocket science.

But certainly, I agree and said so on the original post...horse needs to be seen by some healthcare professionals.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

mercedes you need to take your attiturde and stuck up self to a different topic. stop repeating yourself.


any way

farrier emailed me back said she definatley needs some corrective shoeing that he can definatley fix the issue. he says it looks like the left front is a club when my other farrier said it wasent. AND best part is he'll let me do payments ! so i asked him to quote me an extimate and what exsactly he wants to do for her and i'll have him out asap =]


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

mercedes, where did you go to vet school? I don't know a single vet or dermatohistopathologist who would diagnose a skin disease by a picture on th e internet.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I find it disturbing that you cannot understand what bad shape this mare is in. All you seem to care about is making this old girl as "healthy as possible" before you ride the **** out of her anyway. She's EIGHTEEN. That may not be old for a pampered pasture pet, but it's darn near ancient for a racehorse and broodmare. She has not been kept in proper shape, and the years and strain have taken a hard toll on her body.

You would have to be blind to not see the stiffness in her joints, the awkwardness in her movements. She MAY be a decent light riding horse, but the fact that you're even RIDING this mare right now quite frankly tells me you don't give one **** about her health.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

macabremikolaj said:


> i find it disturbing that you cannot understand what bad shape this mare is in. All you seem to care about is making this old girl as "healthy as possible" before you ride the **** out of her anyway. She's eighteen. That may not be old for a pampered pasture pet, but it's darn near ancient for a racehorse and broodmare. She has not been kept in proper shape, and the years and strain have taken a hard toll on her body.
> 
> you would have to be blind to not see the stiffness in her joints, the awkwardness in her movements. She may be a decent light riding horse, but the fact that you're even riding this mare right now quite frankly tells me you don't give one **** about her health.


amen!!!!!!


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

for some one who said they were done looks like theyve been following any way. lol.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

And once again, you ignore your horses welfare in favour of a cheap dig.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

once again? and you are? i don't even know who you are so how do you know my horse.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Based on your inability to see what's right in front of you, I'm going to go out on a limb and assume a midget in Alaska knows more about your horse then you do.

And you don't care do you? You're going to go right on riding her unsound, underweight, unmuscled, used up body for your own pleasure until she collapses right out from underneath you.

It's to late to make up a story about the farrier being able to save her. This mare's problem has little to nothing to do with her feet. You just want to backpedal now and try to find a way out so you can't face facts that you're abusing your mare by riding her at this point.

If you can't find out WHY she's like this, you don't CONTINUE pushing her into work until you find out. You STOP and find out or you make her COMFORTABLE. Is that really a difficult concept?


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## Gillian (Aug 2, 2008)

barnprincess said:


> once again? and you are? *i don't even know who you are so how do you know my horse.*


^ Because you posted videos of her... that show her obviously unsound. We can all see that and are amazed that you don't see the severity of the situation. I've been watching this thread, and am sorry she's having these problems, but I just don't see a sound horse, or see that she might become sound enough for serious riding and jumping anytime soon. I wouldn't even think about riding her past a walk, or at all, in the condition she's in. Caring for your horse means that sometimes you have to give up what YOU want to do for your horse's benefit.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

underweight? not at all... shes at a healthy weight for her stature. i personally would like to see another 20 lbs on her but most say shes fine the way she is. im not baking out of anything. i'll screen shot the email from him... hes a hoof specialist and best in my area... should have been using him from the get go . he says with the right trim and shoes she'll be fine. AS SHE WAS before this trim . this thred just needs to die now.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> underweight? not at all... shes at a healthy weight for her stature.


Not at ALL. You have to be blind not to see that. She sags everywhere, look at the picture you posted of her butt! It reminds me of one of those sad underfed kids from Africa. In the pictures/video you posted, you can see her ribs on one side of her body.

"Weight" is not just about how much fat she has. She isn't a blob of goo. Muscle tone also counts, which she has none of.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I can't resist adding my two cents worth. WTF is wrong with you Barnprincess? Your horse is OLD and UNWELL! Feed her, love her, but for gods sake STOP RIDING HER! Even in the still photos she screams stiffness, her body is ******ed, it is physically stuffed and people can see it in every vid and pic that you post. 

At her age she is going to deteriorate at a rapid rate, every month is going to be like six, health wise. There is nothing you can do about it she is OLD and Nothing you can do will prevent the continued downward spiral of the breakdown of her body. For gods sake let her retire with dignity.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Okay, I can't stand it any more. BP how many of your threads end up like this? I think about all of them have. That tells me where the problem lies. Retire the poor old mare and go back to the sale and get something younger and healthier. Nobody here had anything against you when the thread started we only wanted to point out that the horse had some physical problems and you once again ignored all advice and tried to justify doing the wrong thing. Let go of your ego and look at the mare objectively and evaluate her. Just because she was not lame when the vet examined her doesn't mean she is not lame now after you have been jumping her and loping her on the wrong lead. Don't compound your mistake by refusing to admit that you made one. You started this thread for advice and that's what you got. Try to handle it with a little dignity.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Seriously? I didn't even notice her feet in amongst the train wreck that is her body.

I am nowhere near as knowledgable in biomechanics as Flitterbug or Mercedes - And even I can see that she is seriously damaged in body and should not be worked - let alone 'jumping 5 foot' *snort*.

Weight isn't the issue - Feet aren't the issue - the WHOLE LOT is the issue! Do you seriously look at her and see a horse that is healthy enough in mind and body to be working for you? Would you expect a human in comparable condition to do manual labour?


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> underweight? not at all... shes at a healthy weight for her stature. i personally would like to see another 20 lbs on her but most say shes fine the way she is.


First of all, your horse looks like she's got mud fever/scratches on her legs. 


Next.... weight. 
Go back and look at the pictures you posted of your horses butt, looking at her straight on from behind. 

Here is my horse:




















Can you see the difference? Your horse is underweight. As for gaining 20lbs-- a horse can gain/lose up to 50lbs in any given day without notice. 20 lbs is nothing. I'd guess your horse is about a 2.5-3 on the body scale. But, you have some very different looking pictures of your horse posted. There are a couple pictures where the horse is significantly fatter than it is now.... I can tell those pictures are older because the recent videos you posted show the horse in this dismal body condition.... when the fatter pictures match the videos you said were from last season. 

The things that make your horse underweight are very clear in your pictures. The protruding tailbone. Look at my horse-- you can't see where the tailbone is. There are divots on either side of the tailbone. On a healthy horse, there would be two mounds of muscle on either side of the tailbone. 

Another obvious sign of emaciation is the indentation coming down from her rump on the sides of her hindquarters. That is not healthy. The complete lack of muscle in the neck, the bigheaded look, the caved in hindquarters.... it's bad. The withers are totally protruding, there is no fat on them to cushion the spine. The sweat marks on your horse show me that, because your horse is so underweight, the saddle doesn't fit like it could. It sits right on the withers and bridges over the back. It is too wide right now and that is bad. Seeing some ribs is one thing, but seeing them all is another. 


Frankly, your horse looks a lot like my rescue horse looked after a few months of being rehabbed. Here is a picture of him in that stage:









At this angle, he really doesn't look *that* bad... but he was still terribly underweight. 

Here is a picture of him after he was up to full weight. He looks like a completely different horse, he's got a spark in his eye, he's fat, muscled, and happy. You can't tell me the first picture of him is healthy. 




















Its scary when people don't realize how wrong a horse looks. Please consider what I said. Your horse doesn't need 20 lbs, it needs 70-100 lbs. Feed her lots of good quality hay. Don't overdo the grain, if she seems to have a hard time eating hay and finishing her grain, give her hay pellet and nutrena senior mash. Please.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

I went back and looked at it, and even in the "fatter" pictures and videos you posted, the horse is still very underweight. 

This horse doesn't necessarily need to be retired... I've seen horses her age come back from her body condition and go on to be very fit and healthy. An aggressive feeding schedule with plenty of rest is all you can do. This horse needs to conserve her energy. Give her all the hay she can eat. 

If you haven't had her teeth checked, now is a great time.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Ok, I've been silently following this for days, and I can't keep quiet anymore.

BP, the last thing this mare needs is to be working. _*MAX*_ work a_*little *_walk/trot on the flat or very easy and short trail rides to help her start rebuilding enough muscle to look healthy. As has been said, muscle tone is a large part of a horse's "healthy weight." With her physical issues (i.e. stiffness, lameness, general off-ness, plus the fact that a saddle can't fit her right in that condition), extended turnout could accomplish much for her, condition-wise. 

Yes, she does need some attention from a few kinds of professionals before any exercise will do much at all to help her stiffness, tension, etc., but that is basically lost on a mare in her state. Working her that stiff will only make the problem worse. BP, I hate to say it, but doesn't look a whole lot better than my little guy did when I brought him home. He came back well, but he's young and didn't have your mare's other physical issues between him and rehabbing.

My Advice: As much turnout as possible, with free choice hay/graze (the best quality you can afford). MINIMAL riding if you must, w/t only if trot at all. Nothing strenuous even at the walk. NO JUMPING. Give her at LEAST 6 months off to decompress and recondition to at least a healthy appearance, in the meantime try to figure out the rest of her problems (if it means vet workup, chiro visits, massage therapy, dental check/float and so on, so be it). If you want to jump her, you want her to be an athlete. _*No*_ athlete, human or equine, can perform under-weight, under-muscled, half-lame, and that stiff. All that trying in that state will get is higher potential for injury. As old as she is, in the condition that she is, her best bet is a quiet retirement. In her current state, I'd say that she'll probably never be totally reliable physically, but by retiring her you may be able to bring her back to pasture-sound for a comfortable retirement. 

If you can't deal with what she needs to get back to pasture-soundness, find someone who can and wants to, and make their day. If you want a 5 foot jumper prospect, head back to the sale.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

^So agree with the posts by Scoutrider and SeWHC.


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## Seahorseys (Nov 14, 2009)

I use to board at a barn where my horse was the youngest, and most everyone else's horses were in their late teens/early twenties. They had a sweet life and their owners were older, they would come down and groom, hang out in the barn and set up lawn chairs to watch their horses graze. I used to think to myself, gosh, why are you spending so much of your time and money taking care of a horse that is old and retired? Then I thought to myself, Frida will be old and retired one day, and I will have earned the right to enjoy the presence of her company without expecting anything of her but to just be a happy old horse. I look foward to growing older with Frida and creating a history that forges a special bond. I think maybe you should consider that you are young and would like to do lots of active things with your horse, to match your age and ambitions. You are also young and may not have the faculties to take care of a senior horse, gosh, the vet, chiropractor, dentist, and massage therapist were down almost every week to tend to those older horses. I learned that it was really an art to properly take care of these senior horses. They were given supplements and special feeds, it was really expensive to keep them maintained and at a healthy weight. I wish you the best of luck. It seems as if your horse needs quite a bit of rehabilitation, and she is probably trying to tell you that in her own way herself. Even at her healthiest, it may be that she can only offer you her company or at best light trail/pleasure riding. I am not being offensive in any sense, as I realize everyone has a dream, as do I, and if someone said to me "Frida will never be..." I would be upset too, but in the end we really have to do what is best for the horse, even if that means separating.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

i skimmed through the latest replys.

Shes turned out all day... 8am to 8 pm.
She gets ALL DAY timothy / alfalfa hay and has for over 6 months now
Triple crown 30% & Triple crown Complete since october
6lbs Beet pulp a day

Farriers comming when this horrible snow melts and he can get in the yard. Going to do shoes and pads.

as for underweight... shes not...
this is the same day as the videos




























NO RIBS... you cannot see her ribs... 



this is malnurished.. when i first got her



















How dare any one say shes malnurished when shes on THE BEST possible diet out there...... Malnurished is the last 2 photos posted. This horse has the best of care. Vet has been here numerous times, he said every time he's come, that she looks great and she's healthy now, he was JUST here. weve done bloods numerous times, shes been checked for worms numerous times. The only thing shes lacking right now is muscle tone. now that shes at a good weight we can work more on that. Wich is what we were doing b4 this farrier trimmed her too short. I dont apprechiate some of the critisism when ive repeated myself so many times on how i got her and her history and how it was about 4 months before she gained a noticible amount of weight being she was so sick when i got her. . . Shes a pretty happy horse who runs around on her own , and follows me when i dump the wheel barrow, who dosent even need a halter to be brought in or out, or to be tacked up. This is a horse whos been through hell and back and suprisingly enough was able to trust again and show affection. This is a horse who was bred 10 times and throughout those 10 years of being bred one after the other she sat in the pasture. then she was sold and ended up at the auction the way i got her. 

Im tired of being told i don't take care of her because i havent bought myself ONE thing in the past 2 yrs b/c ALL my money goes into her and Luna. Mostly ginger.. the vet has been here so many times i may as well say hello neighbor. I have seen multiple vets and have stuck with my current one being he works up at belmont and all the local tracks and he knows his thoroughbreds. 

Im done ranting now. -inhale- -exhale-


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I see all fat and no muscle. My statement still stands.....you can't shove food in her mouth, make her round, and call her healthy.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

I was reffing to the ones saying she was malnurished... when shes no where even a smidgen close to malnurished.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

Regardless of who you were referring to, I have to agree with SeWHC. While you are right that she may not be malnourished, she still is very much underweight. Go look at my TB. You can barely see his ribs on either side, and he needs another 100 pounds or so put on him, and loooots of conditioning to get his muscle tone back....and thats just from three months of no work. Horses lose condition fast. Instead of giving her free choice, you need to buy bales and monitor her intake....just because its there doesn't mean she eats as much as she should of it, especially when you have other horses. In addition some older horses don't like dry hay, they need it to be soaked in order for them to want to eat it. You failed to mention how much of the Triple Crown she gets per day. There is a good possibility that she'll need more than 6lbs of beet pulp, especially since she is older and it is winter.

Her saddle sits RIGHT on top of her back by the looks of the pictures you posted in the OP, unless the pad is bunched up, which would mean your girth isn't tight enough and your saddle is moving. Even English saddles need to have 2-3 fingers between the gullet and the withers. She probably puts up with you riding her like that because shes old and you don't feed her enough to give her the energy to fight you.

I strongly recommend talking to your vet and have him do an honest assessment of her health and soundness, and give you recommendations of feeding based on that. If she is not already on some kind of supplement for her joints, put her on one. I am sure that she creaks and pops....thats a sign of arthritis. If you are absolutely positive that she eats a lot lot lot of the free choice hay, I would talk to your vet about putting her on a probiotic to help her with digestion and absorbing the absolute most nutrients possible from what she's eating.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Maybe I missed something, but your most recent posts BP are the first time I have seen the word "malnourished" thrown around. Yes, she does look much better than she did. Bravo.  But diet is only a part of the conditioning picture. Conditioning as in becoming physically fit and prepared to do the work that is being asked of her. A horse with invisible ribs is not by default "in good condition." As far as her physical appearance, she does need a lot of muscle, but with the addition of muscle should be fine in the fat-carrying department right now. You said before that she's 18. That's really getting up there with the life that you're describing. I doubt that her topline will ever come back to what it could if she were 15 or younger with her history, but she can definitely build that hind end up a lot. Her hindquarters are my main concern as far as her appearance; way too hollowed out around her tailbone and pelvis. Proper conditioning should help that, and I am glad to hear that you are working on that. 

At any rate, at the end of the day the issue is far greater than physical appearance and lack of muscle. Ginger seems to have some pretty big soundness issues. I'm not just talking lame vs. not lame or a wonky trim. The root of her stiffness and other soundness issues needs to be found and treated before much else can be done, including real conditioning and muscle building. At 18, arthritis and other older horse issues may be an worth investigating as well. Bottom line, personally I would minimize strenuous activity that isn't her idea until her issues are sorted out and she's moving naturally again. Her jumping days at any height above cavaletti are probably numbered.

Best of luck to both of you.

EDIT: Just read your post above, JustSam. Well said.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

My god. How can you not see that horse is underweight. You can see her spine and her tail bone. She looks better than when you first got her, but she's a ways from being good. How can you even be riding that horse without getting it healthy. Those videos so obviously show that something is going on. 

I think it's a real tragedy for that horse. Let it be a pasture puff if you are keeping it. That horse is tired. If you can't see that, I am absolutely just shocked.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

I can't help but think, BP, that your responses in this thread to what has been said is very much like the responses given by those brought up in court on AC charges who truly just DO NOT SEE the facts in front of them even when every other person in the room can see what is right there plain as day. Maybe you are blinded by an unwillingness to take an honest look at yourself and your role in this poor mare's misery - it's just too bad that she ist he one paying for it.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

Honestly, I wonder how much that horse is suffering by BP's inaction.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

justsambam08 said:


> Regardless of who you were referring to, I have to agree with SeWHC. While you are right that she may not be malnourished, she still is very much underweight. Go look at my TB. You can barely see his ribs on either side, and he needs another 100 pounds or so put on him, and loooots of conditioning to get his muscle tone back....and thats just from three months of no work. Horses lose condition fast. Instead of giving her free choice, you need to buy bales and monitor her intake....just because its there doesn't mean she eats as much as she should of it, especially when you have other horses. In addition some older horses don't like dry hay, they need it to be soaked in order for them to want to eat it. You failed to mention how much of the Triple Crown she gets per day. There is a good possibility that she'll need more than 6lbs of beet pulp, especially since she is older and it is winter.
> 
> Her saddle sits RIGHT on top of her back by the looks of the pictures you posted in the OP, unless the pad is bunched up, which would mean your girth isn't tight enough and your saddle is moving. Even English saddles need to have 2-3 fingers between the gullet and the withers. She probably puts up with you riding her like that because shes old and you don't feed her enough to give her the energy to fight you.
> 
> I strongly recommend talking to your vet and have him do an honest assessment of her health and soundness, and give you recommendations of feeding based on that. If she is not already on some kind of supplement for her joints, put her on one. I am sure that she creaks and pops....thats a sign of arthritis. If you are absolutely positive that she eats a lot lot lot of the free choice hay, I would talk to your vet about putting her on a probiotic to help her with digestion and absorbing the absolute most nutrients possible from what she's eating.


Shes in her own paddock... no one to bug her while she eats. she eats 1/2 - 3/4 of a bale and my bales are 75 lbs.... and she eats every bit i give her... wich is why she gets all day hay. her grain is 3 qts 3x a day of complete, with 6 lbs beet pulp and a lb of the 30% supplement a day. shes eating more than enough. 

as for having no energy you dont know her.. shes quite a handful to ride. shes got energy .

she dosent creek or pop... at all.. my 8 y.o does.. but she dosent. i use a very very thick fleece saddle pad with a thick foam and fleece half pad. the saddle dosent go up to or on top of her wither. saddler said to slide it a bit back. 





> Honestly, I wonder how much that horse is suffering by BP's inaction.
> 
> ​


my horse is NOT suffering or any where near suffering. You can take your moronic oppinions else where.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

The only moronic thing in this thread is you and your actions. Look at all the people telling you what is going on with your horse and you are ignoring it. You have been given very good advice that you are tossing off to the side.

If your horse is getting plenty of food and has a tail bone that sticks up like that you need to get a vet out NOW and get it dealt with. I don't see a bundle of energy in those videos you posted. I watched every single one and carefully read every single thing you posted before I replied. 

What I see is an underweight unsound horse that needs an owner to look to it's needs.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

Honestly, I'm skeptical. The pictures you posted since I've posted show a different horse than the pictures you posted at the beginning of this thread (weight wise). 

Even still, a horse like that with absolutely no hind end and covered ribs is not healthy. That is a skinny, malnourished horse. Malnourished doesn't necessarily mean emaciated, although the first pictures you posted were emaciation. Malnourished just means improper diet and body weight. 

I don't know anything about your horse, other than the first pictures you posted in this thread. You said they were current. Yes, she looks better than the pictures you posted of when you first got her. How long have you had her? A horse that skinny can put on weight simply by having access to good hay. It looks to me like, you got started on the right track with her, and she lost a lot of weight this winter. Old horses require A LOT of special care, especially in her body condition. Sometimes it takes two heavy blankets to keep that old horse warm enough that it doesn't shiver off all of its weight. 

I think you've done a good job helping her gain weight after rescue. But, it breaks my heart a little having you call her fat, when she's still got a lot to gain. It breaks my heart even more seeing you post videos of you jumping her when she has no hindquarters to speak of. You can't expect a horse to gain weight when it is being worked like that. Trotting is excellent for building muscle.... in moderation, and only if the horse is sound enough to do the work, which she isn't. 

Here is that horse I posted a few pages ago. This is during his weight gain. Again, close to the body score of your horse. 










You can't see his ribs, correct? His hindquarters are severely under developed, as is his topline and his neck. The ribs covered mean nothing in the whole picture. I wouldn't have even THOUGHT of riding him in this state, let alone jumping. 

This horse was put into a comprehensive, rehabilitative training program at about this weight. Five months later, he was a regular horse again, and was owned by the perfect little girl that still spoils him today. Here is how his day was in this program:

7am- get to the barn with bucket of hot water. Soak 2.5lbs senior, 2lbs beet pulp, and 1 big scoop of a 50/50 alfalfa/oat hay cubes. While this is soaking I go through and feed the horses on the other side of the barn. Once that is done, I give Ace his. I let him sit and eat as long as it takes until he's done. 

7:30 - 8am - Horses go out. Ace went out with a very docile older fellow like himself, so there was no chance of fighting. When he goes out, he goes out to two flakes of grass hay, and one flake of alfalfa. 

12:00 - Ace and his pasture mate get another flake or two of grass hay each. 

5:00 - Ace comes in to another three flakes of hay, fresh water, free choice minerals and salt. He also gets another bucket of soaked hay cubes, senior feed, and beet pulp. 



He at all of it. He gained weight quickly. By quickly, I mean in about 6 months he went from emaciated to fat, round, and muscled. You saw the after photos I posted. He looked like a totally different horse. His exercise regimen started at 5 minutes of trotting on a very long lunge line in each direction every day. Once he had the stamina and the muscle to do so, it was increased to 7 minutes per side per day. No cantering, lots of walk breaks. Eventually he got to the point where he could trot 15 minutes straight on the line without stopping in one direction. This helped build up his heart strength, it built up muscle in the hindquarters, and we only trotted as much as he could handle. He never broke a sweat. It takes serious time and you have to be patient with a horse like that. Not jumping 5ft when the horse has zero muscle. 

Also- that horse had major chiropractic issues. He hit a plateau at one point where he stopped gaining weight. The chiropractor adjusted him and said he looked like someone had flipped him over onto cement with a giant spatula. After he was adjusted not only did he gain the rest of his weight, he carried himself completely different and wasn't in pain anymore. He was also having a hard time picking up his right lead at that point, and after he was adjusted he was physically able to do that again.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I just absolutely LOVE how just because a person pumps a horse full of food, that automatically gives you free rein to do whatever you wish to it. Nevermind physical appearance, you're feeding her 300 pounds of food a day so she MUST be in good health, RIGHT?!?!?!?!

:roll:

I will never, in my life, understand having such an ignorant and cruel attitude. Just because YOU don't want to admit your horse looks like crap, doesn't make it so. I don't care HOW much you're feeding her, SOMETHING IS OBVIOUSLY WRONG. I don't know how ANYBODY here can make that any more clear to you. Healthy horses DO NOT LOOK LIKE HER.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Unfortunately, Macabre, she "can't" see it because she does not WANT to see it.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> i use a very very thick fleece saddle pad with a thick foam and fleece half pad. the saddle dosent go up to or on top of her wither. saddler said to slide it a bit back. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> The way the saddle fits when it sits without pads on the horses back is the way that it fits, period. Adding very very very thick padding only makes it narrower and pinch, it doesn't change the fit of the saddle. Clearly, based on the sweat marks on the horse, the saddle doesn't fit at all. There are sweat marks on right on her withers, meaning the saddle pinches/sits right on them.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

> Sometimes it takes two heavy blankets to keep that old horse warm enough that it doesn't shiver off all of its weight. ​


she wears three blankets.. a sheet, medium weight and her heavyweight on top. i take off the heavyweight some days when shes out b.c she sweats. 

this has gone far enough now. Let this die. im no longer interested in what people from the internet have to say, when the VET WHO HAS A LICENSE was just here .


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

*head, desk* - I just feel so very badly for the poor horse, but you have made it abundantly clear that any and all sound input is falling on deaf ears. Good luck to your poor mare.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

Its weird how that always happens when someone hears something that they don't want to hear and they get called out when they ask for opinions.... I wish people would be smart and listen when 15+ people are telling them the same thing. 

Do you tell your vet that you jump your horse 5 feet? How does your vet feel about that? Did your vet do a lameness test, trotting off on concrete? Did you ask your vet what your horses body score is? Why was the vet out?


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

No responsible vet would say this horse is healthy. Not one.


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## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

Even your horses face shows that its underweight. *shrug*


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I would like to know the name of your vet. I don't care if its long distance, I'll give him a call and give him a piece of my mind. Unless you bring him a different horse, no one who is responsible for the health and well being of animals would give you the go ahead to ride that horse.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Can I just ask what your vet has passed her fit for?


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

Ok this is going to be a nice warning. Everyone has their opinion. Say it do not make it personal. 

The horse has issues. WAY more then needing weight. The conformation issues on this horse is more of what you are seeing then anything.

Past that I will say nothing more. If this thread dose not stay civil it will be locked. Which I would hate to see happen as there is some good info and advice in it.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

barnprincess said:


> farrier was just here last sunday and thats when she started acting up. the crack has been notched thats the hole you see above the crack . it keeps it from proceeding up higher. i think the problem foot's heel is too high but i told him that and he said no. so im going to get a different farrier out in 6 weeks and see what he says. He's supposed to be a specialist (the new guy im going to try) so i guess we shall see.
> 
> as for being lame, shes not. she always acts like a giraffe on the lunge when she hasent been out in a few days.


Don't always trust your farrier. Some of them are very educated and highly experienced, others...not so much. Part of why I love my farrier so much is because he will not overstep his boundary as far as his knowledge go's. He will tell me to call a vet out in a heart beat and if the vet says trim it this way, he does not argue it like some farriers will.

I would call a vet out on that front hoof. To me it looks like there could be an abscess, you'll know if she go's 3 legged lame in a few days. I am not the greatest when it comes to confo shots but to me she looks like she has an injury in the back end, up high, either in her back or in her pelvis area. (I would geuss it's an old injury). Of course I'm not a vet.

She looks tons better from when you first got her, her coat is starting to shine and she is really turning out to be a pretty girl. I would suggest having the vet check her out again, something looks off to me.

Pretty girl though.


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## barnprincess (Dec 17, 2009)

Thankss =].

The new farrier i have comming out was highly reccomended to me by a couple people. hes a actual hoof specialist. hes comming once this snow clears up, then i'll be getting the chiro out, and then last but not least the floater. Its been on the list of to -do's moneys just tight unfortunatley. The chiro has to see luna too so im hoping theyll give me a good price to see them both. same for the floater. My farrier knocked $10 off to do them both lol . 

Id like to hear some excersizes for her hind end. we do a LOT of trotting. i just dont have a hill or anything i can work her up . Maybe little raised trot poles ?


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

barnprincess said:


> Thankss =].
> 
> 
> Id like to hear some excersizes for her hind end. we do a LOT of trotting. i just dont have a hill or anything i can work her up . Maybe little raised trot poles ?


How is this for advice...Don't ride her untill she is sound!!!!!!


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

^Took the words out of my mouth.


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## Gillian (Aug 2, 2008)

I'm sorry, but HOW, just HOW could you still be thinking about riding her when she's that LAME?
I get worried if my horse is even just a little bit stiff, and would never think of riding him if he moved like your girl. Let her rest, let her gain weight, go ahead and get chiro out, teeth floated, lameness figured out, etc., before you even entertain the idea of working her.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Just had a quick discussion about this and here's the advice from that:
Pack in riding her for a while and just walk her for exercise. Let her rest and recover then reintroduce really gentle exercise.


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## Gillian (Aug 2, 2008)

^ Walking is a good idea. If you do anything, do that. In-hand that is.


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

I forgot to add, do the walking in hand. Don't get on that mare's back until she is sound.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

The thing that I can't comprehend that YOU can't comprehend, is that Ginger is old. She is at the stage where the best you can expect is a healthy shine on her coat and a happiness to relax in her paddock. I am sorry but I truly do not believe that you are ever going to get back the all the muscle that has wasted away through malnutritian at this late stage in her life. If she were twelve, and you were careful and followed a good program, yes you would probably get good results but at eighteen? 

I know that in the grand scheme of things eighteen shouldn't be old (ancient) for a horse however it is obvious that she has had a hard, hard life. It is written in every line of her body. When something has come so close to starvation the body begins to eat itself in order to survive, it leaches calcium and goodness out of it's very bones to keep going. Just consider that her body deteriorated to a point where there is no coming back from. I think that you will find over the next two winters that her ability to keep on weight and condition will become more and more difficult. I truly think that your poor, beautiful girl has crossed a physical threshold, her body did it too hard for too long and there are somethings that can never be fully recovered from. 

Please consider that even if you got a good run out of her jumping wise last year, that a year later, just maybe, that ship has well and truly sailed. Please think about her age and the fact that time is against her. She is not going to get any younger or more vital.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I think everyone has made their point so it's time to close the thread.


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