# Not frame overo? Srsly?



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I'm havin a color discussion with some people and an individiual says both these horses tested nn for frame/LW. Am I losing it? What else could they possibly be?


















_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Hmmm....I would say they were frame, personally.

Id have the test re-run at a different center...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Apparently the dam (first) was tested twice through UC Davis. The foal is hers and also tested negative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pyrros (Feb 10, 2012)

Only a few variations/types of overo are testable. Just like sabino and DW, there are more than just the ones they test for. There are others that won't show up on a test, and I'm sure there's even a few that haven't even been discovered yet.


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Apparently the dam (first) was tested twice through UC Davis. The foal is hers and also tested negative.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh very interesting...

Was the dam tested for splash do you know?

Like Pyrros said, there are probably a bunch of patterns we cannot test for or have not even found.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I get that but frame overo has always been frame overo. I have never heard of any horse this definitively frame testing as nn. This opens a whole new set of doors into LWO if it's true. I wouldn't even have tested these horses and certainly would have never bred them to any other frame overos. 

Mom as a baby with dam who also shows as frame and apparently DID test nO for frame. 









_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Did they post the test because I don't see how they couldn't be frame.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

No they didn't and of course, how do you really say "um, prove it?" But I feel either the test was botched, they tested for the wrong pattern or read the results wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Apparently a color expert told her they were frame overos and to test for LW. But what color expert would tell you to test for something visible?

The discussion being had is because some people think that a horse can be frame overo and not "carry" LWO. I'm trying to explain it's the same thing - the color itself is the deadly mutation in homozygous form.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Interesting. Did they show UC Davis the pictures of the horses? Because I have a feeling that they would want to know if a horse that phenotypically appears to be the definition of frame came up negative twice, they'd want to look into it. Right after they released the splash tests, they were getting responses from people who had horses that looked like textbook splash horses that were negative for all three mutations so they requested further contact from those owners to research further mutations.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

She said the mare tested N/N and her granddam tested N/L. Those are not the "letters" they use to describe frame. Is she confusing a different test or does UC Davis set them out differently?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

As far as I know, UC Davis does not have an "L" test. Are these the same folks you've posted about (I believe it was you) that were totally fine with breeding frame to frame? 

I see it two different ways: 1) On the really off chance they do have some mutation, they should really get around to contacting UC Davis about it for further testing or 2) They can keep denying it and breeding frame to frame until they get a lethal white foal.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Nope, different person who seems super genuine and honest and not afraid to test for whatever may need to be. Apparently UC Davis saw the photo, tested the mare a second time for free, and still came back negative. And told her they've had frame overo's test negative before. 

I really wish I could see those tests!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

This mare tested n/n for LWO and I had been told that she was LWO and had actually lost a foal to LWO. So, if she in fact lost a foal, I have no idea what it was to. She does carry Splash 1, and I didn't bother to test for Sabino, since that is still pretty limited. What you can't see in her pics is the belly spots she has. She has a couple of fairly large ones and then several smaller ones. None come up on her sides. She also has 2 blue eyes. Her foal is by an LWO stallion, so I was pretty worried all during her pregnancy.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I feel like she is pretty blatantly splash though and both splash and sabino can explain certain belly marks. I just can't wrap my head around the bay mare - the black colt MAYBE could be blamed on something else, and even that's a stretch, but that mare is as frame as frame gets. Granted, if she tested negative, it makes sense if her foals did and she may actually be the beginning of some new weird frame like pattern?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

It wouldn't be terribly surprising to me if that mare was just splash. But if the LWO foal was true, that would throw it off. However, just throwing out different options, the foal could have been homozygous splash (which does cause solid white foals. Can't Hear Guns is an example) and died of some other condition.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Dreamcatcher - wasn't there recently some new information where they believe a rare form of splash we can't test for yet seems to also be lethal in homozygous form? I can't remember where or why I think I heard that. Maybe that explains your girl having an LWO foal? I know there's been rumors and whispers of non-frame parents producing LWO regardless?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I feel like she is pretty blatantly splash though and both splash and sabino can explain certain belly marks. I just can't wrap my head around the bay mare - the black colt MAYBE could be blamed on something else, and even that's a stretch, but that mare is as frame as frame gets. Granted, if she tested negative, it makes sense if her foals did and she may actually be the beginning of some new weird frame like pattern?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But the thing that would be bad with that possibility would be is that mutation lethal too? If not and it was spread around, there would be a lot of confusion (as if there already isn't in the frame over/LWOS situation) between who is positive and negative and probably cause a lot of unnecessary lethal foals. If that makes sense..that was a serious run-on sentence.

And MM, I want to say it might be Splash3 that is lethal in homozygous form. Though take that with a grain of salt until I do some research or someone corrects me. I'm supposed to be studying so my brain is fried.


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Splashed White Overo (SW-1, SW-2, SW-3)

This is what I was thinking about, Splash 2 and 3 possibly being lethal but result in non-viable embryos which I assume means no homozygous baby has even been born. 

How horrible would it be if someone euthanized a white foal thinking it was LWO without verifying? Yikes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

I said that to NdAppy one day when looking up pictures of Can't Hear Guns to post here. She's genetically a bay splash, but being a Gunner crossed with a different Spl1 line, she ended up completely white. If I were her breeder, I would have crapped my pants when she was born. 

I saw another gelding for sale on a local facebook classified page that was solid white except for tiny spot apparently on his nose. Stupid APHA registered him as a Solid too. headdesk.


----------



## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> I said that to NdAppy one day when looking up pictures of Can't Hear Guns to post here. She's genetically a bay splash, but being a Gunner crossed with a different Spl1 line, she ended up completely white. If I were her breeder, I would have crapped my pants when she was born.
> 
> I saw another gelding for sale on a local facebook classified page that was solid white except for tiny spot apparently on his nose. Stupid APHA registered him as a Solid too. headdesk.


I can relate to that the APHA registered Pepper as a red roan but I guess he's not he only DW that that's happened to. 
















_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Dreamcatcher - wasn't there recently some new information where they believe a rare form of splash we can't test for yet seems to also be lethal in homozygous form? I can't remember where or why I think I heard that. Maybe that explains your girl having an LWO foal? I know there's been rumors and whispers of non-frame parents producing LWO regardless?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, supposedly Splash 2 & 3 are the ones that result in non-viable embryos, she tested n/n for both of those and heterozygous for Spl1. Her previous owner was a little old lady and she didn't understand LWO very well, but she had said that Boo had had a foal by a "different stallion" and lost it to LWO. She was blaming the stallion for the LWO which, I suppose you can say it's his fault, if the mare is LWO and you breed to an LWO stallion, the baby couldn't have been homozygous but for the stallion......LOL! Anyhow, I wasn't able to test until after her foal was born, so you can imagine my relief to see a nice solid little colt when she delivered. 

Now that I know she's got nothing but splash and sabino going on, I won't ever bother to try to get a pattern out of her, I'll just breed to a nice, solid stallion and let her put some extra chrome on the babies with the splash.


----------



## haviris (Sep 16, 2009)

Why not contact UC Davis about this?


----------



## Bridgertrot (Dec 2, 2011)

Poseidon said:


> I said that to NdAppy one day when looking up pictures of Can't Hear Guns to post here. She's genetically a bay splash, but being a Gunner crossed with a different Spl1 line, she ended up completely white. If I were her breeder, I would have crapped my pants when she was born.
> 
> I saw another gelding for sale on a local facebook classified page that was solid white except for tiny spot apparently on his nose. Stupid APHA registered him as a Solid too. headdesk.


Makes me wonder how many foals people put down thinking they are lethal white when they truly aren't.


----------



## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

If they even know about it. I imagine the actual lethal whites come more as a surprise to people when their foal is suddenly colicking because I feel like the average horse owner probably doesn't know much about it.


----------



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

There is a APHA stallion that stands around here. His breeder almost did put him down at birth thinking he was Lethal white:shock:. He is considered primarily a max sabino.I Believe he is Palomino overo ,but is register as White solid bred Whata Lethal Weapon (Taz) 

also know another girl that had her horse tested for OLW she had results that he was negative. We said no way he was classic frame in appearance:shock:. She went on & advertised him as being negative. I never did believe results,lab she used had history of sometimes having inaccurate results,but she never did retest:-(. Well she believed after he sired a OLW baby:-( 
UCD is a reputable lab & having 2 tests you have to wonder what else may be going on with these horses posted,agree I would say they should test positive for Frame:? ???


----------

