# Western Pleasure from the judges POV.



## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

Question 4: * What do you like to see the most in the 14-18 YOUTH W.Pleasure classes.... Do you penalize horses if they are loping true but going a little bit fast? What rein length you like to see? I have seen horses showing with different headsets: level with the withers, a bit below the withers, and some show with lower headsets... which do you prefer to see in the YOUTH events? * 
1.The youth classes must follow the same guide lines as all other western pleasure classes. Excessive rein length, either too short or too long will be taken into consideration and judged accordingly. 
2.I don't think there is any differnce in what I want to see in any division of Western Pleasure, I want a nice walk, two beat jog, 3 beat lope, not a crawl. I like a horse with good expression, that looks like it enjoys it's job. I want a horse that looks comfortable in its head carriage and consistent in its performance. Size of the horse does not matter to me. If the horse is a good mover but a little fast, that to me is better than a horse that is too slow and not using itself well. 
3.For me I am looking to reward the best pleasure horse presented to me regardless of which class it is in. In all pleasure classes I want to find the horse that looks like a "pleasure to ride" it's topline stays level, ears are attentive, face is not behind the vertical, and is collected and cadenced in all three gaits. If this horse has a bit more speed then poor moving slower horses then this horse will still win.
 *Question 5: When you have the bits dropped, do you just look to see if they are legal or do you take the bit into consideration as to the horses performance and your placing? * 
1.The bits only need to be legal. Whatever bit is needed to make the horse perform at is best is the bit that should be used as long as it is legal. 
I just check to see if it is legal. 'Usually' a high powered bit will cause the horse to 'tell on it' before the bit check. 
2.Our job as judges is to make sure the bits are legal not decide whether the horse is being riden in the correct bit or tack for that horse. 
3.BOTH!, especially in an English class. I would rather see a horse in a grazer or correction bit than the highest allowed cathedral. But one must show the horse to its best ability and if this takes the severe bit and it is the best horse, best mover, who is following the rules, it will be my winner.
 *Question 6: In WP, what is penalized more: Lifting the hand and driving to correct movement (say if the horse got lazy), or allowing the sloppy movement in order not to show any hand/leg movement from the rider? i.e., My horse is loping sloppy and needs to be checked, do I lift and drive, or to I leave it until I'm where I'm not seen and then correct it so the judges do not see my correction? * 
1.I personally would rather see the horse lope its best, your are going to get penalized either way, so you might as well start teaching your horse to stay loping for the entire class and not let him think he can get flat in front of the judge. 
2.Sloppy movement, moving too slowly, not engaged would be the bottom of the class just above a blatant disobedience, missed lead, bolt, spook, kick-out etc. To answer your question, if you felt as if your horse was not engaged behind, I would push some buttons and get the horse to move up under itself. Remember, the judge is not ONLY looking at you. Be aware of your surroundings, realize where the judge is watching and present your horse to the judge to your best advantage. 
3.I'll give you more credit for trying to do a quiet, simple fix if needed than to let your horse get worse and worse as the class progresses. Obviously, if you can get it done while i'm not looking it would be the best scenerio, but it is not always the case. Your placing would be depedent on the outcome of the rest of your classes rides. 
4.If the lifting and driving is something more then subtle then wait until you are not seen. If it is subtle then do it as needed to make the horse look it's best. In tough competion a slight fix is less penalized then a poor moving horse.
 *Question 7: My horse (all top WP breeding) naturally carries a low headset and I worry I'll be penalized for it... do you take into account the horse's natural head carriage and way of going or just the rule about so many strides with the poll below the withers? (Note: There was also an article referenced in the April AQHA Journal page 72 & 73 where some felt correct a topline was not being rewarded.) * 
1.We must all try to follow the rules as written. I know in our program we take topline very serious. We work very hard in not allowing the horses to learn to carry their heads to low and even develope a que on our finished horse to correct topline errors. My therory is do not give the judge an easy out by exhibiting your horse with a rule violation. 
2.I must take into account the horses natural head carriage. I cannot stand a horse who is intimidated and behind the bridle. This horse would most likely not be free-flowing. I think all horsemen can decipher if the horse is naturally carrying its head low or if it was intimidated to put it there.
 *Question 8: If you are placing two horses that are both relaxed and keeping a consistent pace, but one has a natural shorter stride than the other, which one gets the higher placing? Both are doing the best they can. How do you pick? Is it just personal preference? * 
1.When all parts of performance are equal and it just comes down to style of movement it is just personal preference at this point. I reward the horse with the most unity in their stride regardless of the length. If unity is equal I prefer the horse with the deeper hock. 
2.The winner on my card would the horse that moved the best in relationship to its conformation. Personal preference would be the horse with the Natural Stride even if it is a tad longer. I do not place the horse that I refer to as 'Chippity-Choppy'. 
The better mover wins, whichever horse that may be in my opinion.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

*Question 9: With the emphasis in the past couple of years towards forward motion, is it viewed as a negative if your horse comes off the rail to pass slower horses, but is loping naturally and free flowing? How important is rail position and is controlled passing penalized? * 
1.Controlled passing has become something I almost expect to see in a class. Passing helps to keep the natural flow of the horse. When a rider tries to stay behind a slower moving horse their horse's movement suffers. You need to know at what pace your horse looks it best and show at that pace. If this allows you to stay on the rail, great. If it does not, pass as needed and try to resume a postion on the rail. 
2.I think coming off the rail and passing shows you have a broke horse who can move off the rail and pass other horses. It is most likely advantageous to be the first one to lope off so the judges can see you respect the call and you know you have a horse that can stand up lope. Rail positioning is important but its not what we are judging; rail position is what allows the judge to clearly judge your horse. No, controlled passing is NOT ever to be penalized. 
Who views it as negative to pass? It's not the passing or the off the rail part that most judges have issues with, it's what you look like while doing it. Show your horse at a speed and rhythm where it looks the best. A slow crappy mover will not place above a horse that has to pass it to maintain proper cadence and flow in my book any day as long as it is not running off. On the other spectrum, if a slow, great moving horse is in the class it would probably beat the horse that has to pass some simply because it is much harder and a much higher degree of difficulty to be great legged and do it slowly. In my opinion a horse can be great legged, slow and still have plenty of forward motion. It all depends what your doing while you are passing and what kind of horse you are going around!
 *Question 10: How important is the outfit the contestant is wearing? Have they gotten too 'Glitzy'? What would you like to see in the arena? * 
1.Outfits are something that should compliment the whole picture. A rider does not want to draw attention away from the judge looking at the movement of the horse. I personally like to see people express themselves with the type of clothing they show in. 
2.I rarely notice clothing, it really has very little importance, I notice really great outfits or really poor fitting ones, but neither really comes into my placings. 
3.Does it make a difference if there is a lot of 'Glitz' in a single word.NO! I want a tasteful outfit, clean equipment, and a horse presented well groomed and neat. 
4.I don't have time to look at the outfits. Spend your money on your horse and it's training program.
 *Question 11: If you want to be serious in this event how important is it that you put a 'name brand'² trainer on your horse? An honest answer from a professional Judge would be so helpful....*1. Keep in mind all "name brand" trainers use to be just another face in the crowd trying to catch a break. If a trainer is doing an excellent job, then with time this will be rewarded. It may seem like they do not get their just reward that day. However, for the one judge in the pen that failed to recognize this trainers efforts, there are 5 judges on the outside saying how that horse should have placed better. Next weekend you maybe judged by one of them. Reputation is something that judges reward and reputation is something earned. If as an owner you feel like you can not afford to allow a young trainer to earn his/her stripes on your horse than that is your choice. All trainer's who are now "name brand" had clients that believed in them when they were coming up the ranks. 
2.It's not important (to me) at all who is sitting on top of the horse when its shown as long as they are gettting the job done. Trainers are professionals and because they train horses for a living should be able to present your horse to the best of it's ability in the show pen. Nothing pleases me more than to see a Youth or Amateur show their horse back in the Jr or Sr, sit back and show their horse and knock the socks off the class. Whoever has the best horse and presents it beautifully will be my winner regardless of past show results. 
3.Everyone thinks your have to have a name brand on the horse, I can think of several instances in the past 15 years were a relative nobody has won the Congress and World Show. *The most important thing is to put the best rider on that particular horse.* In 1999 we were looking for a rider for Artful Investment in the Hunter Under Saddle at the World Show, now Jackie Krshka was definately not a nobody, but she was not known for winning hunter under saddle titles, but I had always thought she was a really nice rider and she would really fit Artful Investment, sure enough, she looked great and rode him wonderfully and they went on to be the World Champions in Jr HUS that year. Another year, we took The Coosanova to the Congress, Jason and I had shown him all year and done very well on him, but at Congress we both thought we weren't the right choice to ride him, after asking a few top trainers to show him and being declined, Jason rode and helped prepare him and Jennifer Thompson his owner showed him and were named Congress Champions in Jr Western Pleasure. 
3.This is such a difficult question because I am a professional. A professional exhibitor has become professional hopefully through good ethics, hard work and a lot of talent. I hear the criticisms regarding the same winners always win; it is probably because these same people know their business and know how to get a horse shown. 

4.Yes, an honest answer from a Professional Horseperson and a Judge. I do believe when you get to the top tier, a World Show, Congress/National show, a 'name brand' is beneficial. Not from a "Political Aspect", but because this professional knows how to prepare the horse, knows when it is time to peak the horse and knows how to get the horse shown to the horses' best ability. 

5.I also believe that a 'name brand' has more to live up to. He/she better have near perfect trip, better have a great horse under them, better come every time with a great horse or one will quickly loose credibility. 

6.I think at the week-end shows/circuits the 'Name brands' are very beatable and often judged a little bit harder, but at the finals level, where the nerves and show jitters are taking over, the I think the professionals raise to the top. 

7.Do I believe just because "Ol' so-n-so" is showing the horse it is a sure winner? NO! So-n-so still has to step up to the plate and hit the ball squarely to make the home run.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Cool article very informative


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

What the author should have ask is if the horse is dragging one hind toe in the dirt if that indicates freedom of movement and the kind of stride that would be a pleasure to ride. Also is there a WP judge that actually knows what a 3 beat canter looks like? Judging from the videos I have seen on youtube I would say NO.


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## Ridehorses99 (Dec 23, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> What the author should have ask is if the horse is dragging one hind toe in the dirt if that indicates freedom of movement and the kind of stride that would be a pleasure to ride. Also is there a WP judge that actually knows what a 3 beat canter looks like? Judging from the videos I have seen on youtube I would say NO.


Kevin - 
I agree with you. Although I have seen some improvement after the rule change, I still see jogs that are not 2 beats (and riders are not penalized) and lopes that are not 3 beats (with no penalties). We still have a long ways to go until all judges are there.


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## WesternPleasure1029 (Feb 2, 2009)

Kevinshorses and Ridehorses99-
I completely disagree with you. Do some horses move like crap and look lame? Absolutely. But, look at the winners of Congress and the World Show and you will see that now more than ever before, judges are looking for a horse that moves well up under itself. They want them to stretch their front leg out and move their back leg up under themselves. A nice rolling lope is actually a 'pleasure' to ride and is MUCH more likely too win. Just because you have seen bad movers on youtube does not mean that every WP horse moves like that. I currently have a WP horse that 4-beats to much and I am working very hard to get her to move forward and more fluidly. This even means that I am making her go faster because that is when her legs are moving well and that is how she will place well. Look at some of the top trainers and you will see what I'm talking about. The good trainers are the ones who move their horses forward. Don't judge an entire sport on some bad individuals or every sport would be judged negatively.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

The youtube videos I watched were of Congress winners not some backyard amature.


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## WesternPleasure1029 (Feb 2, 2009)

Watch this video. It shows exactly what is looked for in the Western Pleasure ring. 



If you think that winning horses don't move like this, think again. I have placed many times with a horse that moves like this. Forward, getting up under itself, a happy expression on its face. This is what Western Pleasure is. Smooth, supple, light cues, and a pleasure to ride. Obviously though, no matter how much I explain it to you, you aren't going to change your mind. This is your opinion and I appreciate that but I just want you to know that in no way are these horses asked to move in any way that is unnatural for THEM. Many sports have horses do things that are unnatural like pirouettes and jumping 6 foot fences but this is what they are bred and trained to do and the winners enjoy their job. Yes, some Western Pleasure horses are abused in horrible methods that make me sick to think about but nowadays, they are the minority. AQHA keeps close tabs on what trainers are doing to their horses in ways such as checking the bits of horses in the show ring to make sure they are AQHA legal and random drug tests


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## WesternPleasure1029 (Feb 2, 2009)

Also watch this recent World show winner. She is happy, moving forward and not even close to being a 'peanut-roller'. This is what places and this is what good trainers strive for.



Yes, her gait may be slower than what you like but she is relaxed and enjoying herself. Isn't that what showing is all about?


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

She looks lame, like she is pushing with her right hind, almost dragging it(it does not visibly leave the ground), and pulling with her left... I really don't see collection, her hinds are falling at least a good foot or more behind her fronts...


I am not being obstinate, I just do not see how you see a collected not lame looking horse... could you please explain to me how you see it? I really want to learn how to look at a WP horse and see what you do, cause I just do not see any functionality ... and again, i am not bashing, I really want to learn what you are seeing...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

WesternPleasure1029 said:


> Watch this video. It shows exactly what is looked for in the Western Pleasure ring. YouTube - AQHA Western Pleasure Video


 
I like this horses movement but the video in the next post kind of makes my point. All the horses in the video are dragging along behind and there is no suspension in the way they are moving. I couldn't find a way to count that made it a 3 beat gait either . From about 1:30 to 1:50 you can actually see the horses toe dragging on the ground.


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

APHA World Show Bridleless Western Pleasure


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Oh! Another western pleasure thread attempting to say that western pleasure riders are all cruel, horrible, and unnatrual... awsome. :roll:

A zillion threads later the fact remains the same:
If you don't like it, show in somthing else.

There are plenty of events out there I'm sure you can find somthing you enjoy watching and showing in .


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Honeysuga said:


> I really want to learn how to look at a WP horse and see what you do, cause I just do not see any functionality ... and again, i am not bashing, I really want to learn what you are seeing...


No, you don't want to learn to see it. Plenty of people have walked through western pleasure on this board.

You just don't like the class, you don't like how the horses move, you don't like how its being judged.

That is fine, there is nothing wrong with that, I myself don't like some horses and the classes they show in. It is all a matter of preference; you will never see what I see in Western Pleasure becuase I like it and you don't... thats just life and individuality...its what makes this world so nice.


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## Ridehorses99 (Dec 23, 2009)

WesternPleasure1029 said:


> Kevinshorses and Ridehorses99-
> I completely disagree with you. Do some horses move like crap and look lame? Absolutely. But, look at the winners of Congress and the World Show and you will see that now more than ever before, judges are looking for a horse that moves well up under itself. They want them to stretch their front leg out and move their back leg up under themselves. A nice rolling lope is actually a 'pleasure' to ride and is MUCH more likely too win. Just because you have seen bad movers on youtube does not mean that every WP horse moves like that. I currently have a WP horse that 4-beats to much and I am working very hard to get her to move forward and more fluidly. This even means that I am making her go faster because that is when her legs are moving well and that is how she will place well. Look at some of the top trainers and you will see what I'm talking about. The good trainers are the ones who move their horses forward. Don't judge an entire sport on some bad individuals or every sport would be judged negatively.


Well, I watched the APHA World Show in November and I can't tell you how many non-two beat jogs and non-three beat lopes placed or even won their classes. If you will re-read my post, I stated that we have made some definite improvement but we're not completely there yet. You can't expect to erase years of riding, training and judging in just a couple of years following a rules change. I absolutely applaud the judges who have embraced the change and are judging accordingly, but there are still many of them who aren't there yet.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

WesternPleasure1029 said:


> Don't judge an entire sport on some bad individuals or every sport would be judged negatively.


I think it's entirely fair to judge a sport by the individuals that are winning WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS. If that is not the way to judge the sport then what is a better one?


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## Mira (Aug 4, 2008)

FlyinSoLow said:


> Oh! Another western pleasure thread attempting to say that western pleasure riders are all cruel, horrible, and unnatrual... awsome. :roll:
> 
> A zillion threads later the fact remains the same:
> If you don't like it, show in somthing else.
> ...


Completely agree. 

This thread is just going to go round and round like the rest of the western pleasure ones have, primarily the same people making the same points/observations.

Don't like it? Don't do it and don't watch it. Quite simple. Perhaps this thread could then stay on track and some could benefit from the article rather than this turning into a mini-battle like dozens of others.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Mira said:


> Perhaps this thread could then stay on track and some could benefit from the article rather than this turning into a mini-battle like dozens of others.


I agree however, like all the other western pleasure threads, the rule changes have been explained.... and still here we are. :lol:

For some reason people still think it is abusive...

They just don't like it, nothing can be done to change that.


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> I think it's entirely fair to judge a sport by the individuals that are winning WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS. If that is not the way to judge the sport then what is a better one?


 
I'll start listening to your opinion on WP when you get your judge's card & actually have an education about WP besides what you watch on youtube videos.


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

Here is an opportunity for people to learn more about western pleasure from the insiders: http://www.westernpleasuretraining.com/


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## Mira (Aug 4, 2008)

GottaRide said:


> I'll start listening to your opinion on WP when you get your judge's card & actually have an education about WP besides what you watch on youtube videos.


 kudos


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

er... all I want to say is I have no respect Cleve Wells... he one trainer who has been outed for being abusive....

in response to the link Western Pleasure Revolutionary Clinic with Cleve Wells, Rusty Green and Shane Dowdy


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Here is my last post on this: I don't think WP is abusive but I can't agree that it is horsemanship well applied. The reason I referenced youtube videos is that I don't have the time or the inclination to attend the QH congress and watch a world chamionship WP class. Thanks to Al Gore and his internet I can watch a clip of the "best" wp horse in the breed and only spend 4 minutes doing it.

Now we can agree to disagree but the part I have a problem with has nothing to do with any rule change about head position. I can't tell you how many times I have heard spectators watching WP for the first time ask why the horses are moving like they are lame. Watch with an open mind and you will see what I'm talking about. Horses are barely getting thier feet up high enough to not trip. Most of the time they are dragging them through the dirt of the arena. That is not what makes a horse a pleasure to ride. A few rule changes are not going to help the sport. It is going to take a restructuring from the ground up but that is not going to happen because too many people have shut thier minds and closed thier eyes to what these horses FEET are doing. I could care less where the head is at but look at thier feet and tell me they could be of use anywhere but in an arena going that slow.

I understand that you guys have alot of time and money invested in WP horses and training and you're probably very good at it but the judges are not selecting a horse that would be a pleasure or even particularly safe to ride outside of an arena or even in an arena with any speed. 

I'm going to try very hard to stay away from WP related threads for a while so that this won't happen to a persons thread again.


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## GottaRide (Dec 10, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> I don't think WP is abusive but I can't agree that it is horsemanship well applied..


It's interesting that you say this because I find myself agreeing with you when you post about your training methods & such. It's exactly how I train my horses that I use in WP classes. Hmmmm.......



kevinshorses said:


> I understand that you guys have alot of time and money invested in WP horses and training and you're probably very good at it *but the judges are not selecting a horse that would be a pleasure or even particularly safe to ride outside of an arena or even in an arena with any speed.*


This is where your comments are skewed. You don't know what the judges are selecting in the show ring today, nor do you have to ability to determine what others might consider to be a pleasure to ride.


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## PaintsPwn (Dec 29, 2009)

GottaRide said:


> I'll start listening to your opinion on WP when you get your judge's card & actually have an education about WP besides what you watch on youtube videos.


... Have I told you lately that I love you? XDDD

I agree, Cleve Wells leaves a bad taste with me anymore. He was really nice when I met him, and I was really shocked to hear about that case 8(

Has anyone gotten the Dana Hokana DVD's? Are they any good?




> Watch with an open mind and you will see what I'm talking about.


Jesus, practice what you preach.

​


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

FlyinSoLow said:


> No, you don't want to learn to see it. Plenty of people have walked through western pleasure on this board.
> 
> You just don't like the class, you don't like how the horses move, you don't like how its being judged.
> 
> That is fine, there is nothing wrong with that, I myself don't like some horses and the classes they show in. It is all a matter of preference; you will never see what I see in Western Pleasure becuase I like it and you don't... thats just life and individuality...its what makes this world so nice.


That is rude and uncalled for. I do honestly want to be able to look at a western pleasure horse and know what I am looking at... You gripe and gripe and gripe about all the WP bashing threads and take no time to try to rectify and educate, good job. Please grow up a little and post something helpful instead of griping the ole "pity on us, they just don't understand" WP bit!:roll::roll:



FlyinSoLow said:


> Oh! Another western pleasure thread attempting to say that western pleasure riders are all cruel, horrible, and unnatrual... awsome. :roll:
> 
> A zillion threads later the fact remains the same:
> If you don't like it, show in somthing else.
> ...


I actually posted this in response to all of the WP bashing going on, to show people that according to the judges themselves, they are looking for a better more natural frame and movement. I found it helpful in opening my eye to the actual improvements, not the ones noone can see, but direct from the horses mouth.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

GottaRide said:


> This is where your comments are skewed. You don't know what the judges are selecting in the show ring today, nor do you have to ability to determine what others might consider to be a pleasure to ride.


Which is why I posted this article, so you can see what they indeed look for. I posted it to be helpful. It is funny how now it is you WP fans that are being the negative ones on a thread posted to try to help out... kudos guys. Very stuck up indeed.


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## paint gurl 23 (Jan 26, 2009)

WesternPleasure1029 said:


> Watch this video. It shows exactly what is looked for in the Western Pleasure ring. YouTube - AQHA Western Pleasure Video
> If you think that winning horses don't move like this, think again. I have placed many times with a horse that moves like this. Forward, getting up under itself, a happy expression on its face. This is what Western Pleasure is. Smooth, supple, light cues, and a pleasure to ride. Obviously though, no matter how much I explain it to you, you aren't going to change your mind. This is your opinion and I appreciate that but I just want you to know that in no way are these horses asked to move in any way that is unnatural for THEM. Many sports have horses do things that are unnatural like pirouettes and jumping 6 foot fences but this is what they are bred and trained to do and the winners enjoy their job. Yes, some Western Pleasure horses are abused in horrible methods that make me sick to think about but nowadays, they are the minority. AQHA keeps close tabs on what trainers are doing to their horses in ways such as checking the bits of horses in the show ring to make sure they are AQHA legal and random drug tests


Thank you for posting this video. I seen many things I havent really noticed before. Excellent post as well.


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Honeysuga, it was not uncalled for. Many, many, many people have given an educated point view, explained, and talked... and what comes of it? 

More arguments. :roll:

It is just getting old. You now know the rule changes in effect, and that people are trying to improve the class, but you still don't like it.... 

...what do you want everyone to say?


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I never said I still do not like it, never once, I am happy it is changing, I was just pointing out what I saw on the world congress mare, was I wrong? I was not bashing at all. I have not been given one bit of education, I have been given excuses and "you do not understand so I will not try to tell you". 

I did not want anyone to say anything to this article, just to read it and be a little more informed, since most of you will only give opinion, I thought I would go and find an article that clearly illustrated that the judges are indeed trying to make a change.

But here you come along again just bashing me because I do not see what you do instead of addressing What I see. If you will really look at my critique of her there is absolutely no bashing, but what i honestly see in relation to normal equine movement and soundness... 

I feel bad that there is so much bashing of WP. whether deserved or not, but how can you expect that to change if you just throw your hands up and Say screw it, or give a biased opinion instead of actually trying to be helpful?


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Well, ask a question and you will recieve an educated answer I'm sure... but you originally just posted an article... no questions.... 

So what do you want to know about western pleasure?

By the way; there are different opinions on collection and what makes a horse collected. I think western pleasure horses are very collected, so please don't say "they don't look collected" becuase that is an opinion also; just like collection is and all I can answer to that is "yes, they are collected" becuase I have ridden them before and I have felt uncollected wp horses vs collected ones. They may not be what you picture as your ideal collected horse.... again, to each there own.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I started out in dressage and moved on to hunt. I rode hunt for a good 20 years and switched to western pleasure and aqha style english. I personally like it much more. It wasn't until I made the switch that I learned how little I knew. I am really enjoying myself. 

I love my horse very much. I bred my mare specifically to get myself a western pleasure horse. My mare has Impressive bloodlines and yes, she's HYPP/NN. I bred to an Impressive stud as well. I like the Impressive line. I like western pleasure horses. I don't mind a port bit, I like a horse that moves from the hind end. 

I love the sport, I love my horse. I'm not sure why this week turned into bash the quarter horses with the "why do you call them AQHA's and then the frame and the judges and this and that..." 

Bash away. You won't change my opinion.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I am glad you are so passionate and happy in your passion Farmpony. IMO your horse Riley(?) looks amazing and has a lovely frame and to me he truly does collect(in just the few pics I have seen of him)in the classical sense. I am glad all the bashing does not bother you, that is what happens when you are secure in what you do, major kudos.

FlyinSoLow, I have been doing a ton of research lately since starting this thread to be more specifif and realize that WP horses have their own definition of collection, that it is nothing like conventional collection, and I am fine with that because now I know after looking for a while that that is what thy mean when they say collected, not that the horses have "true" collection as in
"collection - when the rider balances the driving (forward) and restraining aids on a horse. This causes the horse's frame to become compacted, the horse light on it's feet and supple in hand. The baseline is shortened, the shoulder is raised, the croup is lowered and the head is held on the vertical. The horse works off it's hind end, where it's hind end does much of the work."

,and that is what my problem was, I did not understand that they did not mean this kind of collection, but their own "brand" and that is how they are suppose to move. i think more the defensive from your side came maybe from thinking I belong to a particular discipline and was comparing to that discipline, and that is not true. I do not have a "discipline" and was just comparing to the definitions of the specific terms, but WP has a dictionary all its own.

I still have a slight issue with the dragging toes and heavy-ish forehand, but that is WP and that is how they are supposed to be and how all the horses look, nothing to bash. Consider me educated and not a basher. I really do appreciate the level of discipline that it required to move as they do. I just wish you would have been more willing to clarify what I observed, but it is ok, I realize how aggravating it can be to have to constantly deal with the true bashers...

I apologize that this thread turned out as it did, I did not mean it to be so, I really did want a bit of education to happen to help with the bashing...


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I loved the video of the chestnut mare - in my opinion, that mare looks like a pleasure to ride. The second video posted pretty much compounded exactly what I dislike about WP. Unless stock horses are mimicking TWH, I'm pretty sure a bobbing head at the canter means lameness in most circles. :-|

But that's just my humble opinion. I don't like it, but WP people aren't hurting nothing, so what's the big deal? I'm not really aware of any websites dedicated to keeping WP horses sound. I don't much often hear in the news how WP horses are going to slaughter by the hundreds. Heck, if it weren't for everyone commenting about how much they dislike the WP horses, I doubt any of us would notice them at all!


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree macabre... It has kinda been blown way out of proportion on here lately.. I feel like I had a part, but it is not like they are BL's or anything, aside from the personal opinions, there really isn't much to complain about with them, the horses arent outright being abuse and aside form a few bad eggs, it seems a bit more wholesome and horse friendly than other current trends in the horse showing industry.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

thanks honeysuga...

We aren't the big winners in the classes, we are usually coming in lower end of the class, but at least we are placing. Our jog is natural but Ri does not have a natural lope so we will never win a class. I tried to "force" it but it became a broken four beat heavy on the forehand mess. He looked broken so I opted to stay on the "mediocre" end of the spectrum and aim for a forward moving lope....


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

Believe me, my ideal horse is one that can jump mondays, trail ride tuesdays, rope cows wednsdays, western pleasure thursdays, dressage fridays, cut saturdays..... you get the point....

If you want to win, you just can't (although its common now for trainers to hit the trails which is awsome). For me, its never about winning, and I refused to subject my horse to the fake 4-beating lope... but I do wish I would have a horse that I could compete in Reining and Western Pleasure the same day with and do well in both classes. :lol:

FarmPony; my old instructor had a mare with an AMAZING little lope but her jog kept them from placing really well... when she would get to slow she just looked crappy, so they just stayed on the fast end. They did 'well' in their classes but never won. In the end she had a happy horse though and that is what counted for her too!

Also if you start a horse and it just isn't taking to western pleasure in any way shape or form you have to be responsable and go in another direction. We get a lot of horses that may be bred and built for it... but the personality isn't there, they would rather do somthing else; so we switch gears. Sadly; some owners refuse to see that thier horse is unhappy and they force the issue. That is when you get into trouble. :-x

But a lot of people think just becuase they have a horse that it should be built and have the peronality to do anything, and that just isn't true.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

FlyingSolow,

That's funny about your instructors horse. Mine has a KILLER jog. He placed 2nd out of 25 in an open walk/jog AQHA class. He is only 3 so I think in time he will have an acceptable lope, I just don't want to push him too hard because I want him to be my forever horse... He has a "good" english trot and a great english Canter so, although western is what he's bred for, he's placing higher in the english. He'll probably make an ok all around horse in the long run. We tried a few equitation classes the last couple shows and we actually placed higher end of the class. I'm thinking about trying some trail classes as well...

But like you said, it's about the happy horse and the happy rider... not the big wins... (Although it would be neat!)


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## FlyinSoLow (Jan 5, 2010)

FarmPony,

My instructors horse was a Skippa Star bred mare. She was of a much bigger build than the other western pleasure horses but she matured physically and mentally faster than a lot of the other youngsters. She was a bit long in the back, and she was (sadly) a big girl on little feet, but it made her move kind of like a ballerina. 
But in her 2-3 year old years is when she did her best. I think it could be becuase she was more mature physically than the others.. she is 18 years old and still sound and happy to work, but my instructor doesn't show anymore. The mare is a lesson horse and does around 3- hour long each lessons a day in the summer. She has always been sound and barefoot, but she needs boots to trail ride.. **** little feet :roll:.

I try to get out and ride my horses as much as possible outside the arena, and whatever I want to show in I try not to burn out in. I just go out and ride, I try to mix things up a lot, then when we have too I will buckle down and practice. But when doing Western Pleasure, like everything else, you can just ride wp, wp, wp... you need to mix it up.

Really, I love my western horses; when in the arena I tend to ride my horses like they are going to be professional reiners (even if they aren't, and I couldn't make them one on my own anyway!) but doing 'baby' roll backs, lead changes, getting a great stop, and doing circle after circle seems to keep my horses light and fresh. I HATE rail work, and unless I'm showing I refuse to ride on the rail .


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