# Video of the spoiled pony



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Subbed to watch later.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

Huh, one thing I noticed from the get go is he has immediately tuned you out. Head is out to the side and way up, he is not watching you. But part of what looks like is going on is you are giving him a bit of contrary body language- sometimes you do not turn your body as he circle and end up in front of his driving line. But I wouldn't peg that as the reason he is a butt. If it were me I'd use that whip a lot more. He looks so at ease (which is great if the horse is not being a butt) I'd ask for what you want nicely once and if you dont get it what you want insist on forward NOW and BIG- Im back from college and have been riding the horses I grew up on, one TB in particular thought it was totally okay to buck and bolt going into canter- for him it was a harsh one-rein stop, then brief alignment, and then he had to canter from the standstill. He tried that move once on either side then went back to work- licking and chewing and being docile because he was totally sure of what the standards were and how to follow them.
In lunging the pony Id work with a very stern "traditional V" with my body. Hold your whip so it is always there and READY to be used when he turns in without a cue. at 4:12 when he swings back and pulls away from you- do not pull on the halter. Rather move behind his driving line and use the whip a little more than you normally would to push him out into a big trot. if he keeps pulling- keep swinging the whip- escalating until you get a response. You want him really attuned to your driving aids and not so much the line. If you pull on them they often just pull more. (im not saying that he shouldn't yield to pressure- im saying that if he puts tension in the line make sure his release is from his obediance to your forward driving aid.) When he backs up and you shake the line you are using a method a lot of trainers use to teach to back up. If you snap the line across his nose and back and forth he is not going to want to stop backing up he is going to want to keep retreating. 
at 9:25 when you lift the line to ask for forward and he does not respond promptly- id like to see you really insist on forward with him. use the whip, you brought it for a reason right? but so far you've hardly used it and it seems like this pony needs convincing that you will. 

I can see that by the end you get what you want from him- but I think you could get it a lot easier and with more consistency if you can push him to focus on you. Where he is in the circle should not affect how he behaves or misbehaves if he is attuned to you. So I would encourage you to be intent about all your cues and to be predictably unpredictable so he knows that he constantly has to watching you. Insist on quality and promptness of transitions, throw some canter in there some- to really convince him that you decide when he MOVES. So he turns in. Okay, ask for a turn on the haunches and change of direction- that really makes him engage both sides of his brain and admit you control his direction of travel, also it will make it less fun for him to turn in, he'll just want to continue in the current direction- just like you want him to. 

Thats it for training,
BUT- STRaightness, this pony is very unevenly balanced and almost looks gimpy because of it (just my guess) at the beginning of the video, He could do with some work in hand/ undersaddle to get him to align better. Id begin with proper gentle flexion of the head and neck while standing, then asking he barrel to swing out and the haunches step in while walking. I wont go into detail but there is a free Ebook from "straightness training" that introduces it. It did wonders for the horses I ride and my understanding of how they move.

I really like him...I havent given advice in awhile so Im sorry if I wrote way more than you need, I think he could be a really cute pony some day.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

For the most part, he seems to be trying, and almost looks abit off at times, but that could be an illusion, caused by pressure on the head.
He also is confusing easy with whoa. I would not use easy, but rather walk, trot, canter and whoa, which you can combine with leg cues when you ride.
You also need to use your body language more, as you can see where he wants to stall out, and you need to get into position to drive him on
Whoa should also mean stop parelli and wait for any command to reverse, not automatically to turn in towards you
He seem sto be trying, but you need to use your body language more, and not just that lunge line and lunge whip
Overall, much as I watched, seems a nice pony, and not anywhere near as bad as I expected!


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## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

I didn't watch the whole video, but it looks like he's lame in front at the trot, not sure which leg. He is focusing on you pretty intently with his ears, but going in circles both ways, his head and eyes are tilted to the outside. There's something about the way he's carrying himself in the front, head and neck that seems to be off to me, but I can't pin it down. 

He seems very responsive to your cues. When he faces you, his eyes and ears are on you. I think he may have been taught previously by someone when asked to stop, to stop and turn and face you when on the lunge line.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 40232 (Jan 10, 2013)

I got to about 5:20 until I stopped watching. I believe this situation is being handled TOTALLY wrong from what I seen in the video. It may just be me, but I honestly think your body language and how you are communicating with the "spoiled pony" is part of the problem. The video makes it look like you are more near his shoulder while lunging, instead of behind the drive line. At 6:00 the line tightens, the pony begins to turn in, and then instead of hopping behind the drive line and whipping at his butt, you yank and yank on that lead. If you are having problems with him turning it while lunging, yanking all over his face and causing him to leave the circle isn't going to solve a thing.

Change that halter and chain out to a rope halter. Get a solid "carrot" stick. Teach that horse respect by making him move forward, not backwards-sideways-hopping in the air. If I learned anything from teaching horses not to turn in and back up while lunging, it's not to make them back up more. 

I don't think this pony needs a chain over his nose. I think he needs work with natural horsemanship. Not foo-foo natural horsemanship, but instead Clinton Anderson or similar. The only place where I have ever found a use for a chain while lunging is with a horse that takes off and has no intention of stopping until I'm not on the other end of the line anymore.

Just my interpretation of the situation presented in the video, not looking for arguments. I just don't see any progress being made with the current method.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I think that YOUR body language cues [or lack thereof] are a big part of what is happening with this pony. 
He seems like he's trying super hard to figure out what you want, but he also looks like he may have been taught to lunge by a person who "drove" him more strongly. 
You stay consistently behind his drive-line, which is a location where you have less control overall. Virtually any horse, well trained to lunge or not, is going to be on his/her "worst" behavior when the person lunging them stays out of the drive-line. 

A potentially easy way to explain it is to imagine that you have a star on the center of your chest - the star should always line up with the middle of his barrel, while your leading hand has a direct line to his head and your following hand has a "line" to his rear end.
Like this Google image:










I think you'll see a dramatic improvement in his behavior if you just focus on that for a bit. Being properly placed gives you A LOT more control, and he knows it. :lol:

I don't claim to be any kind of lunging expert, but here's an old video of me lunging my horse and demonstrating that "V" form if a "real life" visual would help. Start at 1:30 for the easier-to-see video.
My horse also used to be kind of a wild card on the lunge line [if you watch the video from the beginning, you can see some of his old behaviors], but consistency and using "The V" helped a lot. 






Best of luck! He's super cute and he clearly wants to please.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

the reason i dont use more whip to drive him, is that he just bolts when you go after him with it. ive been dragged across that ring on more than one occasion going after him with a regular lunge whip. you smack him across the butt with anything and its instant rodeo time. i get what everybodys saying about get behind him and drive him, but he goes into psycho mode when approached with anything more than a crop. he'll stand on a lead, and let me rub it all over him at close range, legs back, face, all fine when im standing right next to him. but put him on a circle, and show him that whip, and its go time. 

i could be more behind his shoulder, ill have to work on that. 

as far as if hes lame...hes not. i thought he was off the other day when i tried to get a video, so i took him out and trotted him on flat hard sand and he trotted off nice and even.i think its a combination of the footing and his leaning. hes always stiff to the right side, and under saddle (when i actually feel brave enough to ride him) we do a lot of bending to the right.

when i ask for a whoa, i want him to turn and face me, i taught him that. i want both eyes and both ears on me, waiting for the next cue.

we havent advanced to the canter yet because of my above statements about the whip. when i ask for the canter, he trots faster and faster, and when i finally lift the whip to push him into it, he bolts, then dragging me across the ring. 

im leaving to go out of town tomorrow, so he'll be off for the next three days. ill try to get a video when i get back, implementing some of your advice, and we'll see what we get.


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## lostastirrup (Jan 6, 2015)

> As far as if he's lame...hes not. I thought he was off the other day when I tried to get a video, so I took him out and trotted him on flat hard sand and he trotted off nice and even.i think its a combination of the footing and his leaning. He's always stiff to the right side, and under saddle (when I actually feel brave enough to ride him) we do a lot of bending to the right.


Thats totally what I saw as well. I think it is their way of trying to compensate for physical weakness. They engage more the improper leg and try to work on "the offside" while going through a curve. 

Do you have a roundpen you can work in? If he reacts badly to the whip, using it well is the only way I can think of to familiarize him with it. If you use it, let him run as fast as he wants until he slows down- technically he did you what you wanted- go faster. give him a release the initial moment he moves out, let him go a few strides then slow him down. If he is taking off across the yard and dragging you with him- I think a chain is a great idea just so you have more stopping power when you need it. But I would not hesitate with the whip because of his reactions- his reactions are saying "I have not been educated so it scares me" I like working canter on the lungeline even for one that is rotten as all get out, because it is a gait that really stimulates their flight response- allowing me to fine tune it and get it so that we are both comfortable with him moving at a canter. If he thinks he may only walk and trot when attached to a line, then he may feel trapped. If he can move around in a circle at a canter- that usually makes them gain confidence, which is a little of what i think is the problem. 

I know some people like to gain things gradually on the ground- but I like to ask for the basics all in the same day and insist that I get them. It may take some work- like putting him in a round pen where he cannot rip your shoulders out- or committing to give the cue anyway even if it upsets him. That way I can make him a "safe horse" day one. 

I can see that he is a butt and is quite reactive, and you appear to be getting really frustrated with him. I'd sit down before your session and make a plan for all of the things you suspect he will pull, Set up a rule for yourself on how you will react and how you will respond to his badness. Also make a plan for prevention- I would go over your video quite a bit by yourself and make note of the parts where you think your body and what you did did not set him up for success and where it did. Figure out what you do well and where you tend to get frustrated and react badly. Keep that in mind as you work with him. Become a person that he feels safe with being a leader. Be fair. Give him incentives that make sense (not shaking the line when he pulls back- but encouraging forward). 

Thats all I got.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I, personally, am in no way saying use more whip. You have enough line in your other hand, I'd be tempted to get rid of the whip completely and toss that excess line at his butt when he disregards your forward cues.

Forget the whip to "drive" him, the thing that should be driving him is YOUR BODY. 
As seen in the video I posted, I don't have a lunge whip in my hand and my horse is going along fine because I'm driving him with my body. I rarely use a whip for lunging and I have rarely come into a lunging situation where I felt like I needed a whip. Usually tossing out the excess line is plenty 'push.'
When I first got my horse, he'd get "tired" of lunging and try to charge at me - THAT was a time I needed a lunge whip. But he got over that "trick" pretty quickly and my lunge whip remains largely unused.

This pony looks forward enough, I would bet that he would do just fine if you left the whip in the tack room and used the excess lunge line as "motivation" when he needs it.
Focus on driving with your body, your body is key. The whip/excess lunge line is just "back up" for your physical cues. The whip should be the last thing that comes into play during lunging - voice, body, whip/excess line is what I always taught my lesson kids.


I do see how he might be difficult to lunge, and he clearly is dealing with some "stuff" mentally. 
His bolting away screams to me that there is too much "pressure" on him and he's trying to escape, so I would _really_ love to see how he lunges when there is no lunge whip, no chain on his nose, and he's wearing a properly fitted rope halter [as a precaution for you - more control, if you need it]. 
He strikes me as the type to do well with less pressure [from the whip, chain, etc], but I could be wrong. I'd be interested to see what happens.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Quite honestly, I think you're figuring this out. Give it time! The only thing I can think to offer is maybe try using the whip as you would when lunging the average horse now that you have the stud chain on him. It may help to stop the bolting off when the lunge whip touches him. I can think what I would do: Lightly flick line of whip over his back, when he freaks out just hold on to the lunge line and keep him on the circle (this would work even better if you could work him with the lunge line in a round pen). Teach him that while the whip isn't something to be afraid of, acting like he's afraid of it and bolting off isn't going to get him out of work either. That's why I think he does it: an excuse to make you not want to keep working him. He sees you actually start using the whip and "oh, now she can MAKE me do what she wants so its time to quit" and pulls his tricks out of the bag. Kind of the same thing I'm seeing when he turns to the inside and starts backing "I don't want to and you can't make me". He did it several times where I saw no body language trigger from you. He would almost go one round trotting and then pull that in the same spot. Instead of backing him, I would just take the lunge whip across his back side and drive him forward again. So getting him to accept direction from the lunge whip seems key here. 

Those are my thoughts. Good luck! Don't get dragged. Whatever you need to keep him from dragging you on the line when you lunge, whether the stud chain works or you need a snaffle bit or whatever else, use it. I think once he figures out he can't get away from you and that you can make him do what you want he'll shape up!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I think another part of the problem is maybe that he's slipping? It looks like the ground is muddy. in some spots and those look like the areas he keeps slipping on and having problems. Maybe that's just the video and the ground isn't muddy, but that's what it looked like to me.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

I unfortunately don't have any kind of round pen. He lunges well in a round pen. He'll try to change directions on you when asked to go to the left for too long, but he canters well (fast, but well) and still has an awesome whoa. But what I was using as a round pen was taken over by the woman who runs "A" barn for turn out, and she had multiple horses in it for extended periods of time, so all the grass is gone, and the footing is eight inch deep muck. So I had to start teaching him to lunge on a line. That's when these problems came up.

But horseluver that's exactly what I'm seeing...He decides he doesn't want to anymore, and just swings his butt out, and starts backing up like "no no no, I don't want to"

It rained this morning, so the ground is a little slippery. He did slip trying to make that one stop.

I don't actually have a rope halter that will fit him...I might have to make one.


I tried to lunge him without a whip after realizing he had such extreme reactions to it....He was an absolute nightmare. I couldn't get a single decent trot circle out of him. He had no motivation to go forward, and would trot two steps, then swing his butt and haul off backwards. And since I had nothing to aid me in pushing him, when I tried to move to the side of him to push him forward, he'd just keep his face on me and evade me. I eventually went up to the barn and grabbed my crop, and he did much better with that, so I've been using that ever since.

I think when I get back from my trip I'll try him with the actual lunge whip again. If I get dragged, then I get dragged. I hesitate to put him in a bit to lunge because I don't want to damage his mouth with his antics.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the horse IS off. not badly, but somewhat. I cannot tell for certain, but I think it is front left. but, he IS off on a circle. 


here's my take on what is happening, and I am in agreement with most of what has been said.
1. first, *get rid of the whip*. it is causing her to "flee" you, and you dn't want that. or, at least try NOT having it in your hand.

2. now that you are no longer holding the whip in the supporting hand, transfer the bundled line to you supporting hand, (the one NOT leading), and hold the line in your leading hand, just exactly how you would hold it if it were a rein. WEAR GLOVES. even if it's hot. if you hand is tangled in the line, the glove slides off and lets your hand come free, and you will have a firmer feel. utililize this way of holding the lunge line to transmit small "feel" down the line, just like you would a rein; closing your hand firmly, or giving TINY vibrations to remind her to listen, or giving her a tiny release if she bends toward you.

3. Do not back up. when you are standing in the middle, and pivoting, you need to be pivoting in a forward manner. you are actually stepping behind yourself to turn and you end up facing too far in back of her, which triggers her to think, "does she want me to turn in and face her?" you need to be focussed on her shoulder area, or at furthest back, her girth area, and be walking FORWARD in a tiny circle. think of it like having your inside foot nailed to the floor, while your outside foot pushes you forward like you were riding a scooter. your soutisde foot goes out in front of your inside. your are moving forward. it seems like a meaningless difference, but it is not. I would say to actually walk a tiny circle, not pivot, just walk around a circle that is about 2 feet in diameter. think of having your toes literally pointing at teh horses shoulders, or if you want to push her face out, at her nose. 

you can use the bundled line in your supporting hand to move the pony forward, insstead of the whip.

4. Watch her and when you see her start to lose the bend in her body, which will start with her thought going out of the circle, use a cluck or a tiny squeeze of your rein hand to bring her mind back to you BEFORE she takes her whole body outside of the circle. watch and you will see that she is leaving teh circle almost always in teh same place. she gets troubled there, and cant hold her speed nor her bend. help her BEFORE she gets to that place. if you watch and know where that is going to happen, then before it happens, get her soft attention on you. a little cluck or whatever.

5. in order to get her attention with a cluck, you need to minimize them. you are clucking so much to her that it becomes meaningless. it is an aid, a supporting aid, dont' wear it out.

6. pony is very stiff going left, so work on that having her walk on a much shorter line. this may be one reason why he is evasive going left and tries to switch directions. he is uncomfortable

7. I do not get your backing her wildly when she boards up and leaves. it is literally scaring her and I believe making her repeat this behavior.
instead, disengage her. don't run toward her shanking her (and that's another thing. shanking this pony with a chain on. that's for serious offences only, in my book)

so instead of running her backward, disengage her. if she starts to try and get her body straight and bust out of the circle, quickly move toward her tail , and pull her head back around toward her tail so that she is disenagaged. get her to stop, look at you with two eyes, then aske for a good depart. if she whizzes off in a panic, repeat the disengagement. NO SHANKING. jsut disengagen (shut her down), ask for her attention and calmly ask again for the depart/speed/bend that you were trying to get.

if it isn't good at a trot, go back to a walk.

this pony has a lot of try and if you shank and yank and chase her, you will make it worse.

and sorry, I thought pony was female. should be "he" not "she".


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

KylieHuitema said:


> I got to about 5:20 until I stopped watching. I believe this situation is being handled TOTALLY wrong from what I seen in the video. It may just be me, but I honestly think your body language and how you are communicating with the "spoiled pony" is part of the problem. The video makes it look like you are more near his shoulder while lunging, instead of behind the drive line. At 6:00 the line tightens, the pony begins to turn in, and then instead of hopping behind the drive line and whipping at his butt, you yank and yank on that lead. If you are having problems with him turning it while lunging, yanking all over his face and causing him to leave the circle isn't going to solve a thing.
> 
> Change that halter and chain out to a rope halter. Get a solid "carrot" stick. Teach that horse respect by making him move forward, not backwards-sideways-hopping in the air. If I learned anything from teaching horses not to turn in and back up while lunging, it's not to make them back up more.
> 
> ...



I agree with you. 

the pony has two responses that are problems:

one is that he stops and looks in. this is due to the handler's incorrect body position/language. pony has also learned to look in whenever he thinks he can, since this is associated with stopping and resting, and so, if handler's body language wavers from clearly saying "Forward!", pony fills in the unclarity with the habit of turn in and face handler. 
to correct this, body language must be clearer, and focus of driving pressure needs to be closer to the shoulder or face even.

Two, pony goes faster and faster, gets stiffer, starts to lose balance, and then stiffens body (to take control of the line and in anticipation of the punishment) and bolts out of the circle. 
handler must anticipate this and keep pony focussed on her/inside, and, if pony does, she must disengage(put bend back into his body) 
BEND is the antidote for bolting. not a chain or a shank. 

that said, I have used a chain/shank on a horse that would do this, especially as a cunning escape strategy at trailer loading. but, he was not trotting around. he was right next to me where I could apply just enough to remind him that he needed to do what I said. you can use it if you really need it, but try to get away from it as soon as you can.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I do use a chain shank to lunge a horse that has learned to pull away but that chain is attached under the chin, with attachment changed with direction.
Of course, not handy for asking the horse to change direction himself, but I only need to use it once or twice, until the horse gets the idea of not pulling and keeping slack in the lunge line
Since I do have a round pen, it I want to teach a horse to reverse on command, either to the outside or inside, I free lunge
You have to watch your own position, as if you focus on that shoulder, that is a block of forward, which you can use, for 'whoa, followed by reverse-inside, or reverse outside. If a horse starts to stall out, drive him up, focusing on his hip area
Your position is confusing him at times, and why I said you need to focus on your own body language.
I agree on not shanking him, esp with that chain over his nose.
With the chain run under the chin, you only need to give on etug, if he pulls, and he immediately gets relief, the minute he gives and stops pulling
The chain has to be attached in such a manner that it has zero effect, unless the horse is resisting,, and also instantly rewards the horse when he gives.
It should not be wrapped, as it often done, when run over the nose, thus always exerting increased pressure than that plain nose band.
My horses have to learn this complete respect, never pulling on that lunge line, as they are often lunged at shows, before the show starts when they are still green, and thus there are other young horses being lunged, people riding along the rail, and it you don't have 100% control, can be a real wreak!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I see a lame pony that is trying to do the right thing. But, what the right thing is, is hard to discern.

I recommend getting him to a vet who is good with soundness issues. That is where I would start with this horse.

If you do get an exam, don't tell the vet the horse is for light riding. Tell him or her that you hope to show. Over fences. Or team pen. Or chase wild cattle in the Florida swamps (He'd fit better than a full-sized one on a boat). Personally, I want to know what a horse's limits are so I can plan its' training and get an idea what I can and cannot expect.

I honestly do come up with some crazy goal, said with a grin, so the vet looks hard and gives me the most accurate picture they can.


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## SomethingSpecial (Aug 14, 2015)

I see a pony who is trying rather hard to understand what you are trying to communicate but is rather confused at the mixed signals.

I also see a slight lameness.

I see a pony who is not yet balanced enough to be trotting in such a tight circle. (let alone canter in that proximity)

I see a pony who turns and backs up the moment any tension is put on the lead because he anticipates his face getting yanked on and backed up profusely.

This fella looks "rushed". I would go back and start with a walk. Getting a relaxed attentive walk. No micromanaging (you are giving a lot of commands in a short amount of time and I personally don't think this guy can handle that quite yet).
I would get a nice relaxed, attentive walk and have pony walk a few circles to the left. say whoa. have a change in direction walk a few circles to the right. whoa. pats. call it a day and end on a good note. The next day, do it again but add another whoa and direction change. 

I would do this till I could consistently (may take a few days, may take a few weeks) get a nice walk with no freak outs. I would reward the small advancements. 

I would also allow pony out on a larger circle before allowing the trot. He really just seems unbalanced and stiff in a tighter circle. I would also lose the whip and desensitize him to the line.

I really think he's going to be a great pony once you figure out what works for him. Each horse/pony is different and requires different training techniques.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

Every time you go to jerking on his nose with that chain you're destroying any chance of him ever developing confidence in you or your hands and creating the very behavior that you find so dangerous. He's actually trying to do what he's asked and would, if you knew how to ask him instead of treating him like he's the one with the problem. That's why he's continually dropping his shoulder, looking to the outside for an escape route. 

Hurting him more so when he's resisting out of confusion (not to mention that he's real lame) won't help you. Understanding that you're the one that needs to make some changes will, but a person has to be interested first. Anyway, good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

(sorry double post, this phone is screwy. I'm out though.)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EquineBovine (Sep 6, 2012)

Subbing to watch later. Lots of good advice on here too!


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

To me it looks like the pony is confused and is rushing because it doesn't understand or feels pressured to continually keep going. 

It's been suggested before but I would get a vet to look but also have a look at straightness training by marike de Jong it's really informative and interesting.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Here are my observations FWIW. 

I see a pony that is slightly off. On a circle it is very difficult to tell if it is the (I think) right front or left hind. Their stride on the circle only tells you that they are consistently off when one front or the other is coordinated with the horse lifting its head. This will coincide with their inside front or outside hind. I've been fooled too many times by a horse being off on its outside hind but could not tell until the horse was trotted away from me on a straight line. Only severe hind limb problems are obvious. 

But, I think that has little to do with his problem. A lameness is not an excuse or a reason. A 3-legged lame horse or an injured horse should still be obedient. It is never an excuse for bad behavior. 

I also think you can walk and trot and stop him from now on and he will blow up, stop, face up and run backwards (which you are making worse). The way you are going, he will continue doing this every time you want him to move out and maintain any form. All of the running him backwards when he wants to stop and run backwards is just making him worse. He is winning every battle as he is never anchored and made to continue forward and canter. 

A round pen will not help you a bit. The fence will control him and not you and he will know that. He will only work well inside the pen and just run sideways or backwards until he is stopped by a fence if he is not in the pen.

As for 'good' longeing form and being in the right place -- he is waaay past that making any difference. He is spoiled enough that he has just plain decided he is not going to go forward any faster than a jog or go at all when he has hit his limit for putting up with you. 

He is not even close to being confused. He may have been at one time but now he is very deliberately NOT doing what he does not want to do. 

You have two options: You have to get someone to help you or you have to set a strong, wooden post very solidly, either in cement or at least 4 feet deep. I got tired of being drug off by spoiled horses, so I set a post out in the pasture. I hung a bucket of mineral on it until I needed it. Then, I took down the bucket and used it to 'break' horses of trying to run off when I longed them. 

I used a rope halter (not a chain) when using the post. The object of the post was to anchor the horse effectively so I could get after it and MAKE it keep going forward -- a win for me and a lose for the horse. Some set back really hard, sat down and finally leaped forward with a huge leap just before they decided I was going to eat them alive if they did not get the heck out of there -- forward -- like I wanted in the first place.

The cedar post was about 8 inches in diameter and started out almost 10 feet long. I carved out a slight notch around the post about 4 feet above the ground. I would take one wrap so that the horse would wind up tighter if I did not walk around with him as I did this. It takes a little practice to get good at, but a 150# person (like I was at the time) can handle a 1300# spoiled, rank horse with this post. I was in control and could do it by myself.

Being in charge is everything. Right now, this little beast is calling all of the shots. He will be in charge until he can no longer stop when he feels like it and cannot run backwards when he feels like it.

I would probably get a good lameness specialist to figure out his problem while I obtained and set a big post. If he is sore behind, setting him up to set back (or letting him run backwards like he is now) will only exacerbate it.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

I'll get the vet out to look at him. He's not showing any limp on a straight away on Hard surface, but after looking at the video some more, he's more off in the front end than he was the other day even. 

He's not confused. This pony knows how to lunge. He knows what is being asked of him. If you read my other post about him (frustrated with my pony) when worked a few days in a row, he'll go perfectly fine by the second or third day. But if you give him even one day off, he pulls his butt swing/haul back move. The more time off he gets, the worse it is. The more pressure you apply to ask him to move off, the more he fights you.

Cherie, the post thing is exactly what my husband suggested we do. 

I'm going to try (with video proof, so everyone can see exactly what this pony is about) first without a whip in a rope halter for the NHers, then with a whip for those who said to get after him, all in the "v" body set up.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I only saw the first 2 seconds of the video.....but rather than continue to fight with longing, I would put him in long lines. Use a surcingle or the stirrups on the saddle to run the lines low and give you a bit of leverage on the inside. Start out walking only for at least a few days. Do not jerk and yank on him. (That first second of the video where he went forward and you yanked the chain is what I saw)


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> The more pressure you apply to ask him to move off, the more he fights you.


This is exactly how HE has trained people. This is how he has learned to stay in charge.

If your husband is big and strong (and willing), let him anchor the rope WITH a chain on him. If you opt for a post, use just a strong rope halter. Just don't let up when you get after him until he lopes at least one or two continuous circles. Then, be sure you have told him to slow down to a trot -- not stop.

There are no spoiled horses you cannot get after. The 'hot bloods' and the smart ones (often the same horses) just learn to throw timely fits and train people to give up and take the pressure off. [And people call them 'dumb animals'!] Yea! Right! 

Another note about your ineffective punishment technique --

My guide for punishment or any negative reinforcement technique (actually it is a + R technique) is this: if you have to get after a horse more than twice, your method is flawed and needs to be re-thought. 

This is just as true of the horse that nips or bites. If you have to get after him more than twice for biting, you have not broken the bad habit. If horses need occasional reminders that they should not bite you, you have failed to teach them to not bite -- period.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

Cherie, that's why I came on here with My original post (frustrated with my pony) because I knew my method wasn't working. My husband is a big dude and could probably anchor him pretty well, he just lacks the timing and finesse to get behind him and drive him at the same time as keeping him in the circle. But that can be worked on. Our only other problem would be that my husband works until after dark most days. 

My fear with that, would be that my husband would get him going well, then as soon as I took the lead back, lovebug would go right back to his tricks because he knows he can drag my 100lbs around.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Let husband anchor him and you use the whip to make him move where you want him to. You can have the timing and he can stop him from pulling and backing up.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am not disagreeing with Cherie but what I am seeing is that your longeing skills need a lot of honing. 

Watching the video (thanks for not adding some crappy music!) I see you faffing around instead of getting him to move amd really work. 

I would carry a lunge whip, the fact that you say he runs off from it is neither here nor there, he has to get use to it, many the time I have been told that you couldn't use a whip whilst longeing which is rubbish, they soon get use to it. 

You are to slow in reading him. Just watching I could tell when he was going to swing in and run away. If I was in the middle then the moment I suspected what he was going to do I would be far more to the side of him so I could get the whip behind him. As fast as he swings his butt out so I would be moving to keep behind driving him forward. 

I would also not be fussing with getting him to walk and change direction so fast he would be made to work at trot and canter before I tried to refine the walk. 

He isn't sound that is for sure. 

I am looking for a difficult horse to lunge to get a video of to show what I mean.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree with FoxHunter

From the part I watched, the horse is not sound, and the Op is not reading the horse correctly.driving him on , when he first gives a sign of stalling out, allowing him to face her unasked, ect


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

IF the pony was sound, I would probably let him/keep him moving forward, and continue that until he is comfortable and complaint with just going one direction before trying for the stops and reverses.

Yeah, he does give signals that he's going to duck, turn, etc and I would love to see how much, or little, it would take at that point to cue him to do otherwise. 

But, *AnalisaParalyzer*, even with all the armchair quarterbacking you are getting here, I hope you don't get too disheartened. I believe you will get things sorted out, the pony will be fine in the end, and you will enjoy him.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

If this pony has been out to pasture for a year and the vet finds lameness, you may be dealing with a permanent problem. It may be the reason they stopped showing him.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

He was out to pasture for a year before I bought him, then in light work for a couple of months trying to get him right under saddle. He was sound then. Then I had to focus on my other horses for a bit to keep them going right for the kids who were leasing them. He had about six months of being ridden about once a month, then last month I started working with him again. He's always been stiff to the right, but never off like he was in the video. That started last week. He's had three days off, since I've been out of town, and tomorrow I'm going to take him out and see if he's still off. If he is, then I'll have my vet out this week. 

If he's got something seriously wrong, it's not a big deal. As long as he's pasture sound, He'll be turned out on 220 acres with my cattle and two donkeys to just be a pony for the rest of his life.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, first & foremost, could he be limping when he's trotting esp clockwise?

I'm assuming you're just teaching him to lunge? I'd first want to ensure he led & drove well first, and would be asking/motivating him to *pay attention* before I got to the 'lunging'. I couldn't really see any subtle signals you may have been giving, and was a bit confused by what you were asking/accepting(was hard for me to tell what you wanted, so praps hard for pony too!) so my comments are mostly about how the horse was going. I think you need to get clearer with your bodylanguage/cues.



AnalisaParalyzer said:


> you can see in the beginning of the video, he walk nicely at first, then gets rushy and wont respond to my command of "easy", but if i wiggle the line, he over-reacts and stops to turn in.


I didn't see much 'walks nicely at first', but that he immediately wanted to trot & *went with his head to the outside the whole time* - wanting to be outta there, not listen to you. *I'd want to get him paying full attention to you, not 'ignoring' you, before asking for anything else.* Going to the right at a walk he seems generally more attentive & relaxed though. Possibly getting his attention, getting him to want to be there is the most of the 'battle'. 

Lunging to me isn't about just going round in circles at proscribed paces, but is a training/attention exercise, just taking leading/driving up close, to the next 'level' - the same but at a distance. I don't just want the horse 'obedient'(tho of course that's an important part), but _wanting_ to be there, play my 'games'.

I wouldn't worry about 'overreactions' too much in early training - it means slow/stop, and I'd basically accept it any way it came to begin with. Excepting that I think it was probably your abruptness & responses that weren't helping. If you're going to use the shaking the rope as a cue for him to slow down, I would also be doing this on a short lead/close up while leading first, and 'backing up the ask' with more direct pressure rather than getting 'big' with the rope 'wiggles', so he's more likely to understand it means slow/stop straight, not turning in & less likely to 'overreact', less likely for you to need to 'overreact'. I also like to have a separate 'stop' cue to slow. 

I'd also start with less circling & lot more reinforcement for what you are getting. I reckon there were many missed opportunities for reinforcing, that would have made it clearer & easier for the horse - & motivated him more. Eg to begin with, just like accepting any kind of stop at first, also accept/reinforce any 'go' in the right direction/pace. Even if it's a few steps in the beginning. Get the basics understood & working before asking for 'improvements' of a circle or more, or whatever.



> in the beginning of the video, i only have the stud chain over his nose.


Only?? Not a fan of that at all. A halter is enough IME. But you say he's 'spoiled'? (How so??) If perhaps he's learned to resist/escape people before you, that may be a reason to use... but it doesn't look like that's a problem. Perhaps you might need a 'wake up!' tactic to get his attention, or a strong 'reminder' occasionally, but I really feel the attention/motivation is the biggest thing & that not asking for that, then then getting 'heavy' is not very fair or productive. So far as I could see, don't know that he behaved any different as I'd expect, by reacting backwards. 



> you can see, going to the left, he trots a nice circle, then decides hes over it, drops his head, swings his butt out and starts to turn in. when asked to keep going, he throws his head up and goes back. after a couple of times, i respond by chasing him back.


Saw where he was running around looking away from you & either decided to try stopping, or he got startled/concerned/confused at something you did & *reacted* by stopping & facing you(couldn't quite tell which, bit of each I reckon). Some looked more like a confused/reaction to me & he tripped a couple of times. Then you're response caused him to react backwards a bit before carrying on. I think the first few times, where he stopped/reacted & then you immediately drove him forward again were fine. When he moved off for you again, I would have then asked him to stop/reinforced him for doing 'right', to motivate more of that 'good' behaviour. 

I would not have been getting aggressive & driving him away backwards like that though. I don't think that's at all helpful, just something to get in the way, interrupt, confuse... Instead, I'd be quietly (but forcefully if necessary) continuing to 'ask' for what I wanted, instead of something totally different & scary. Ensure his 'wrong' behaviour just wasn't reinforced and there were unpleasant consequences until 'right' happened. Assuming he understood what was wanted. I get the idea that he basically understood, but was a confused/left wondering because he wasn't reinforced for stuff. So kept deciding to try something else to see if it worked - stopping.



> but this is a mild representation of lovebugs resistance to work.


I really didn't see anything unexpected/bad from him, considering what you were doing/accepting. We're all 'resistant' to 'work' when there's nothing in it for us, when it's a horrible 'job'. If you instead focussed on making the 'right' behaviour good for him rather than just trying to punish 'wrong' I think you'll find him a lot less 'resistant'. JMHO

**ED to add... boy, wrote this yesterday when there were few replies but didn't get to send. So haven't read replies yet....


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Trotting him in a straight line doesn't rule out that he's lame on circles.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Have you tried just a halter and lead and swinging the end of the lead to get him to move? Your pony IS listening to you in the video. Every time you yank on the chain you are telling him to stop, and so, he stops. That chain on a lungeline should only be used to teach a solid whoa, to a horse that will NOT stop, if used at all. I agree to switch either to a lunging halter and snap in front of his nose, or just use a regular halter to lunge in, OR buy a knotted training rope halter. STOP YANKING on this pony!!! It thought from your post that he was EXTREMELY disrespectful. You are beating him up! He needs to be asking nicely to move, and then you step in front to Ask him to stop, let him stop and think and then change reins.
http://www.amazon.com/Clinton-Ander...sr=1-1&keywords=clinton+anderson+horsemanship
If you watch his programs, he and many other tv trainers ONLY use the end of their ropes to move the horses that they have started. It works because the horse initially reacts to visual stiumuli, the rope swinging and then learns that the swinging rope is a cue to move their feet.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

BTW, I tried teaching my older herd of horses to lunge. I had never done it, and my horses were FINISHED under saddle. Every time I made that stupid triangle, outside hand to the outside and whip behind the HQ's, they didn't understand anything but to face me. MY horses didn't need any additional training, but they wouldn't lunge. THIS pony will work for you but is very frustrated and needs to go back to turning on the forehand, with just a regular halter and swinging a short lead.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I have not read through all the comments but the problem in this video is two fold. The first problem is your handling. You are not CLEAR and do not know what to do with a whip. The drawing by Wallaby is how you lunge a horse. It is a driving exercise. You stand there with the whip doing nothing because it IS nothing.. you need a proper lunge whip .. and then you whap him on the face wiggling/yanking the line. NOT how it is done.. and that pony is trying and confused and that just leads to evasion and resistance. 

The second thing is the equipment. He should be lunged with a proper set up. This means a bridle with a snaffle bit and a saddle or a lunging rig and loose side reins (loose to start but not so loose he can get his nose to the ground or a foot through the reins if he puts his head down.. but with a curve in them when he is standing relaxed). The reins should be attached to the saddle at the same level where the stirrups attach to the saddle. NEVER EVER EVER lunge a horse with a chain on the end of the lunge! Just because they sell this equipment does not mean it should be used. It is sold because people provide a market!

If you cannot afford a lunging cavesson, use a snaffle bit and a lunge line with no chain. have it snapped to the outside ring of the snaffle bit and then run it up behind his ears and through the ring on the inside to you. 

Adding to this is he is lame. He takes several lame steps in the video. A horse with pain issues trotting in a tight circle like this is not going to learn much and will, if he has any sort of sense of self preservation, evade the exercise to avoid the pain!

His bolting is an evasion due to your lack of clarity and skill coupled with improper equipment and (possibly) pain. You need to be an active participant in lunging, not just stand there and talk. Horses are not verbal animals but they are visual and they do read body language. You give this pony nothing and expect him to just do it. 

I am not trying to be mean here. Honesty often comes across as mean in print, so please do not take this as mean to you. 

You need someone who knows how to lunge a horse to teach you how!


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

She re homed the pony. Problem solved.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Deleted my post per Greentree's comment.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Elana said:


> The second thing is the equipment. He should be lunged with a proper set up. This means a bridle with a snaffle bit and a saddle or a lunging rig and loose side reins ... NEVER EVER EVER lunge a horse with a chain on the end of the lunge!


Agree with Elana except this bit.... well, actually I FULLY, TOTALLY 1000% agree not to use a chain either... But I don't see anything wrong with using just a halter & long rope personally. I don't use a roller or saddle & don't tie reins to it just for lunging, but long reins always go thru rings on a roller, to keep them in the right pozzie and keep them from getting stepped on or such. And I sometimes use a lunge whip, but more often use a stick or the tail of the rope. I just think you need to know how to be clear & effective, no matter what equipment you choose.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I find a halter, line snapped to the bottom, and no whip to be just fine on a well trained/behaved horse..


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Corporal said:


> BTW, I tried teaching my older herd of horses to lunge. I had never done it, and my horses were FINISHED under saddle. Every time I made that stupid triangle, outside hand to the outside and whip behind the HQ's, they didn't understand anything but to face me. MY horses didn't need any additional training, but they wouldn't lunge. THIS pony will work for you but is very frustrated and needs to go back to turning on the forehand, with just a regular halter and swinging a short lead.


If you teach them to lunge by turning on the forehand than that would explain your problem.. 

Or if you overdo the turning on the forehand aka yielding exercises aka respect exercises none stop (not saying you do) that would also be a problem. Went to do some ground work with my new mare and couldn't get her to STOP yielding!! Needless to say, initial lunging was a PITA.

Turns on the forehand have absolutely nothing to do with lunging imo.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

agree ^. having the horse so ready to yield his hind end every time you move over that way creates problems. they should yield it only whent told to do so. that's why repertive "step by step " exersizes for respect where you just get the hrose to yield teach them to anticipate what you want and become so anxious about it that they try to run away from you (move away from you) before even being asked to do so.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Longeing is way more than just having a horse go in circles around you. 

Body language is a big part, and forming the triangle with line, horse and whip important. Majority of horses, if there is no whip will slacken off the way they are working, you can swing the end of the line but, if the horse is going on a descent size circle then you are not going to have the needed length. 
If you are using two reins then the outside rein will form the third triangle side so no need for a whip. 

If a horse swings to face then you have two choices, first is to be super fast to got behind it with the whip and to make this easier I would be working it on a short line *but* be walking a circle myself so I am in closer contact but not working the horse on a tight circle. 

The second is if they turn and face you and stop is to swing the while in a circle parallel to their body, about a foot away. If they still stand then I will flick them with the whip along their body, of no reaction then they will get a good crack across they back legs driving them forward 

As for control I would use a proper longeing caveson or a bridle with the rein from the outside over the poll and through the ring on the other side. I did make a device of a length of nylon strap with a ring on either end that went over the head through the bit rings and the line clipped onto the rings so it didn't need changing every time you changed direction. 

I do not have the horse walking much on the longe, I have them trotting and cantering, I also do not, with the horse that knows how to longe, have them in a continuous circle but have them go straight, on a square. And when adept with two reins, frequent direction changes. 

I would not recommend a chain unless the person using it was capable of impeccable timing.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

I gave this pony back to his former owner. Not because of the lunging issues, but because of his issues under saddle. He was meant to be my daughter's pony, but he's just too unpredictable.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

AnalisaParalyzer said:


> I gave this pony back to his former owner. Not because of the lunging issues, but because of his issues under saddle. He was meant to be my daughter's pony, but he's just too unpredictable.


Probably a smart choice.

I've found the continuing conversation interesting, though. Lots of opinions, unrelated to your specific pony, which may be beneficial to someone else. 

Best wishes on finding the right mount for your daughter.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

AnalisaParalyzer said:


> I gave this pony back to his former owner. Not because of the lunging issues, but because of his issues under saddle. He was meant to be my daughter's pony, but he's just too unpredictable.


I think you tried very hard and gave every chance. There is a better pony out there.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree that while it was hard for the OP to hear so much advice, sometimes frustratingly conflicted advice, too . . . it was a good discussion and will be a good reference to someone else with similar issues.

I almost think we could have an entire suf-forum on "Lounging. or Lunging", since there are more folks with issues doing this than about any other training activity.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> I agree that while it was hard for the OP to hear so much advice, sometimes frustratingly conflicted advice, too . . . it was a good discussion and will be a good reference to someone else with similar issues.
> 
> I almost think we could have an entire suf-forum on "Lounging. or Lunging", since there are more folks with issues doing this than about any other training activity.


Or "longeing" 

I think this is a great idea! I learned a very specific way (cavesson, saddle, and side reins), and not until I joined the forum did I know about things like rope halters and leads, round pens, etc. Fascinating to see how people approach things so differently!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

yes, "loungeing" might be a good one, too.
I am a pro at loungeing.


I had a couple of lessons doing traditional lounging, and I was amazed at how much more there was to it than I realized. I don't do it much, since we have no need. the horses at our barn are out 24/7 and are not the high strung kind that need their ya-yas out. and, for training, we just ride.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I like all horses I work with to know how to lunge/longe/lounge. I find it useful for a few things. Initially, I use it for beginning education - learning to work with a human, to get used to the feel of saddle and bridle while in motion, to understand what words mean such as walk, trot and canter. Long lining is especially useful. Later on, I use it to enhance straightness and bending. For any horse I use it on occasion for exercise when I don't feel like riding but still want to give the horse a short workout. For every horse I use it to evaluate soundness if I suspect they are off somewhere. On a horse I've never met, I use it to get an idea of their temperament before riding. The one thing I never use it for is to "get the kinks out" before riding. If the horse won't settle, we will just go for a longer and more demanding ride.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> Longeing is way more than just having a horse go in circles around you.
> 
> Body language is a big part, and forming the triangle with line, horse and whip important. Majority of horses, if there is no whip will slacken off the way they are working, you can swing the end of the line but, if the horse is going on a descent size circle then you are not going to have the needed length.
> If you are using two reins then the outside rein will form the third triangle side so no need for a whip.
> ...


^^^^^^^^^^^ *Why oh why would you lunge a horse in a halter with the line at the bottom ring and drive him in mindless circles?* *This teaches NOTHING at ALL.* Every time you work with a horse you are training that horse a little bit and helping them gain something physically and mentally. Mindless drilling serves no purpose (be it on the ground, in a round pen, on the horse's back, in longe lines or lunging). 

If you _need_ to lunge a horse so the edge is off so he is tractable, then the horse is _not broke and you need to revisit your training, feeding and stabling program!!_ 

I have beat the drum on this before and, as energy and time allow, will probably beat the drum on it again. Lunging is a training tool... just like a round pen is a tool or bit is a tool.. and the use of training tools is how you develop your horse.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Elana said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^ *Why oh why would you lunge a horse in a halter with the line at the bottom ring and drive him in mindless circles?* *This teaches NOTHING at ALL.* Every time you work with a horse you are training that horse a little bit and helping them gain something physically and mentally. Mindless drilling serves no purpose (be it on the ground, in a round pen, on the horse's back, in longe lines or lunging).
> 
> If you _need_ to lunge a horse so the edge is off so he is tractable, then the horse is _not broke and you need to revisit your training, feeding and stabling program!!_
> 
> I have beat the drum on this before and, as energy and time allow, will probably beat the drum on it again. Lunging is a training tool... just like a round pen is a tool or bit is a tool.. and the use of training tools is how you develop your horse.



Not sure what you are refering to but I do not longe with just a halter.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I left out the words: THIS is how it's done! before adding the rest of the post. 

I LOVE your posts on Lunging Foxhunter.. I swear we learned our basics from the same English Horsewoman (Elsie Powell back in the 1960's!). 

I was referring to all the OTHER ppl who post they lunge their horse in a halter.. not what you said. You do not just push your horse around in mindless circles.. not at all.. from your posts on lunging!!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Elana, thanks, I couldn't see where you are coming from!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

HaHa Foxhunter! Sometimes I can't see where I am coming from either!!!!! (Scary!)


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Why are you continually shaking and flopping the line? There is not any need for that at all, and is more than likely the reason he is traveling with nose away from you, trying to protect his face.

If you aren't getting him over the nose you are getting him under the jaw.

Makes me sick to watch it and had to shut it off.

This isn't spoiled pony as much as you are a handler that doesn't know what you are doing.

I don't know who taught you to "lunge" by using the line as a weapon, nor why, but it is wrong. And to do it with a chain shank too, is beyond belief.

Poor pony. You should be ashamed of yourself.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Palomine, you might want to read some replies & think about the way you put things. While I think people have generally found a much fairer & more helpful way to explain to OP, it's essentially already been explained many times that the way she was going about it wasn't helping. But OP & pony have already parted ways anyway...


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

So here's a question, to continue the discussion... If a horse ignores your verbal "whoa" or "walk" command, what do you do to command a stop or slow down? 

I was taught to wriggle the line, to get their attention back on you and your command...but apparently I'm a horrible horse abusing numbskull.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

AnalisaParalyzer said:


> So here's a question, to continue the discussion... If a horse ignores your verbal "whoa" or "walk" command, what do you do to command a stop or slow down?
> 
> I was taught to wriggle the line, to get their attention back on you and your command...but apparently I'm a horrible horse abusing numbskull.


Wiggling was how I was taught as well but I was also told to disengage the hind end.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I was taught to use the line to get their attention, too. To do the least possible but most necessary to get the horses attention. The timing and strength of this "wiggle" of the line is what is critical.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Honestly? This is what I would do:

I stare at the goober horse and ask "Really? You just _have_ to run around when there is absolutely no need for it?"

Then I would take up a bit of the slack in the line (I lunge only on very large circles. Sometime use more than one line and don't use round pens.). I would position myself slightly forward and ask for a whooooooaaaaaa, taking up more slack in the line.

If needed, I would also put up an arm horizontal to the ground. Shoulder height. So the horse would see it in front of them.

If needed, I would continue to bring the horse in, making it move in smaller circles.

I never use a whip. I'd probably trip over it. 

Horses respond well to how I cue them when lunging. I've schooled some pretty salty ranch horses so handicapped kids could lead and lunge from motorized wheelchairs for leisure or exercise activities. 

Smart horses seem safer than dull horses, many times.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

boots said:


> Honestly? This is what I would do:
> 
> I stare at the goober horse and ask "Really? You just _have_ to run around when there is absolutely no need for it?"
> 
> ...


in the case of this pony, allowing him to start winding himself up, faster and faster, just sets him up into the place where he gets his head to the outside, braces his neck, lines up his front in in line with his back, and then no human in the world could hold him from busting straight off the circle and leaving. it is necessary to keep him from getting to the place where he starts thinking about, and rushing into this strategy. that's why, I WOULD use a wiggle in the line to derail him the instant I felt him start rolling into that pattern. it's a "No, not that thinking!", then quietly ask again as soon as he has said, "what?". the idea is to interrupt it while you can, before it's set in stone.

some horses, letting them run a bit, if that's what they need to do, I'd agree with your approach, but not with this pony.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

One thing I (think) I just noticed OP is that you put the chain straight over the nose. While I personally disagree with that if you want to do it that way please make sure you "wrap" it (around the noseband) so the pressure is on the noseband and not directly on the bone. Metal on bone = OW, especially when you are having yanking wars.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> some horses, letting them run a bit, if that's what they need to do, I'd agree with your approach, but not with this pony.


I would likely have tried it with this one, too. Lameness aside, there was something to suggest that he liked the reaction he was getting. 

I rarely react to behaviors. But if I need to... it will be before they happen, with that initial pre-signal most animals give, or it will be enough to extinguish the undesirable behavior.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

AnalisaParalyzer said:


> So here's a question, to continue the discussion... If a horse ignores your verbal "whoa" or "walk" command, what do you do to command a stop or slow down?
> 
> I was taught to wriggle the line, to get their attention back on you and your command...but apparently I'm a horrible horse abusing numbskull.



I certainly DO NOT think you are a horrible horse abusing numbskull - so get that out of you head! 

What I do think so that you have never been taught to lunge correctly - for a purpose and most importantly taught how to read/anticipate when something is about to happen. 

Wriggling the line is fine if done occasionally or as a signal to slow a pace but to continuously do it is nagging and soon it means nothing. 

Body language has a lot to do with slowing a pace or stopping, moving so you are slightly ahead of them can work but with some they will ignore it. So what I do then is to work them in an area where I have a corner. I will prepare them with voice cue, waaa ho, whoa then. The first is drawn out and I will move to be slightly ahead of the shoulder, if they do not stop then I will keep parallel to them and run them into the side so they have to stop. They soon catch on.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

AnalisaParalyzer said:


> I was taught to wriggle the line, to get their attention back on you and your command...but apparently I'm a horrible horse abusing numbskull.


That bit first... I for one, don't believe, from the little I know of you, anything of the sort. Some people just don't respect anyone with 'different books' to what they read & also forget that no one started off knowing it all... even if they apparently do now. Not your problem, don't let it be. 

I too was taught long ago the _value_(IMO) of 'wiggling' the rope as ONE signal... albeit I don't go in for the whole way you do it(wouldn't call that wiggling anyway, esp with a chain) & do think it's part of the problem here....


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I think that any of us professional trainers could look back and recall how, had they known more, they might have achieved a lot more with certain horses in their early days.

Over the years, if you take it that for at least five hours a day I was riding/training horse for fifty years, that gives me something like 90,000 + hours riding/training experience with nearly as many hours interaction with the horses whilst doing stable work. 

That is a lot of experience, people who are with horses as a hobby (a time consuming one at that!) have to go many years before they have the experience I had by the time I was in my twenties.

The other thing is that until I was in my twenties I always had someone more experienced to correct/advise me. 

We all had to start somewhere.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

To be frank... The amount of bull pucky that has come out of me trying to learn something has completely put me off of EVER asking advice from the internet again. I've worked with horses since I was seven years old. I broke my first horse at fifteen. I had a round pen and free lunged every horse I've ever worked with. 

I free lunged this pony until I lost adequate facilities, and he did great when there were walls to keep him in line. In an open space, on a line, it just didn't work out for either of us.

I've been accused of abusing this horse. I've been told I should get an atv and never be allowed to touch a horse. 

I've got thick skin, but by god I have never in my life felt so disheartened about the horse community. 

I just took in a half starved, completely terrified yearling two and a half weeks ago. You couldn't touch him without him darting sideways. He kicked if you touched his legs.He had worms so bad his belly looked like an exercise ball.

He's gained weight. Stopped flinching when you touch him. Picks up all four feet, leads well, and has the best vet in my county attending to him. His worms are under control, and I've done all of this without further terrifying the little guy. 

And yet because of some higher than thou Facebook personality and the "I'm better than you" horse community at large, I'm labeled as someone unfit to be around a horse. 

Those of you who have seen me around here have seen pictures of my horses. Fat, sleek, healthy, well behaved animals. My mare, whom I broke and trained, carries around a seven year old twice a week. 

Toby, who was thin, hadn't had his feet done in a year, reared and attacked people when I got him, is now a mellow, healthy seventeen year old horse learning dressage. 

I have done more good in the horse world than bad. Do I still have more to learn? You bet. I'm twenty five, I've still got years to learn. Do I deserve to be labeled as a horse abuser? Hell no.


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## AnalisaParalyzer (Apr 25, 2012)

I didn't say I was doing anything right when I lunged that pony. The whole point of this god forsaken thread was to get help with what I was doing wrong. Or has that completely gone out the window? 

As I stated, do I still have more to learn? Yes.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I think you're taking things out of context and taking them personally, understandable from your end, I sympathize. But do try and take a step back and realize that for us we are simply responding to a video and trying to help and I have personally really liked this discussion and think it goes a lot further than just helping you and has excellent advice for anyone having lunging troubles.

You were doing things wrong. The list of things you have done right are irrelevant to this video and this thread. Doesn't mean you're a horse abuser or anything absurd like that but comments were directed towards lunging..

The list of "things you've done right" is a turn off as it does sound like you aren't willing to learn and think you just know everything. It's great you don't actually think that way but it's how it comes off when you list your accomplishments when someone says something critical.. Especially when what you are having trouble with is something basic as far as formal training goes.

I truly believe all the advice was meant to be constructive, and I definitely found the thread very informative which is why it's continued so long past your decision to sell the pony. I'm sorry you are taking it personally.


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## BearPony (Jan 9, 2013)

While some comments were very harsh, it seemed to me that most posters were genuinely trying to be helpful. And it is hard to know for sure as "tone" can be very hard to read over forum posts.

I think this thread has been really informative too - I've definitely picked up a few tips and things to try next time I have one who is difficult to lunge. We all have strengths and weaknesses in our horsemanship and I think its great the pony has found someplace better suited to him and you have found a horse that can really benefit from your strengths.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Closing for moderator review - this thread had started going a nice direction, but now appears to have run it's course.

The adage that it's easier to catch flies with honey might be something to keep in mind.

Also, the Etiquette Policy we all, by virtue of signing up for this forum, have agreed to abide by:
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-forum-rules-announcements/conscientious-etiquette-policy-6069/



> Our interest in preserving the nature of the community trumps our interest in allowing everyone to share their opinion here. If you can't share your opinion in such a way so as to preserve the friendly, fun, helpful nature of the community, don't.


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