# Issues with bitting and other stuff



## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

I rode Tess today with a regular O-ring snaffle. We worked in the "round pen" for a while and she did fine. She got shod today so I decided we'd ride down to the dirt road and have a bit of a run. We did, but she started acting sour on the way home. I let her canter (bad idea) and she took off so I turned her off the side of the dirt road and made her run back the other direction. We did this a few times before she quit trying to run for home. Then when we did go home, I walked past the gate, stopped, turned around and walked past again. Repeat. Then I got off and untacked. I took the the bridle off and checked her mouth, only to find sores on her lips, right where the snaffle puts pressure. It almost looked like the cheek got between the bars and the bit. 

Anyway, I feel like an idiot. I wasn't hard handed, though she was pulling a lot. I'm really trying to teach her to ride with pretty loose reins so I'd only pull to correct if she went to fast. I'd always use my voice and seat first, though it did pretty much nothing. 
I don't know what to do though. She got rubs like this before but I thought it was the martingale I used. Regardless, it hurt her mouth and I feel horrid about it. This definitely doesn't help soften her up. 

When her mouth heals up I could put her in a French link to see if that helps. Though that means backing off the speed until she responds to the gentler bit. I hate that she's hard mouthed and I'm really trying to retrain her but you know, I can't let her run off with me. I did get a little hard when she took off and wouldn't stop but I did a one-rein stop when we got to a wider part of the road and turned her in a circle. 

I'm real frustrated about all of this mess. I don't want Tess's mouth to be sore at all and would never hurt her on purpose. She responds well to the bit at low speeds but when she goes faster it's like trying to stop a volkswagen with a bungee cord. I know it's all training holes and we're working on it but STILL. It's hard.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

You can get bit guards to put on the cheek pieces. Or you can get winged loose ring cheeks. Or get a different cheek with the same mouth piece.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

I should have clarified- the sore is _inside _her mouth. I pretty much always have bit guards on my loose ring bits.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

the bit mouthpiece may not be wide enough for her mouth. If so, when you pull back on the reins, the O rings push her lips hard against her teeth.


Could you post a photo of the horse with bridle on as you normally use it? without bit rings, so we can see how well it is sized to her mouth.


you might try the same mouthpiece type that she likes, but use an eggbut, or a D ring, and offset your handpressure, so that one rein is having more contact than the other when you ask her to slow. It might help make her less likely to lean hard on the bit.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

I will do that tomorrow. She did have a some marks when I used the D ring but the day before I had used an O ring and didn't check, so that could have caused it. Though these sores heal very fast. I'll put some coconut oil on it and hopefully it'll help. I'll get pictures tomorrow.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Ok, here are some bit pictures and a terrible video because she wouldn't hold still long enough for a picture. She couldn't see her pasture buddy from inside the stall and didn't want to stand still. And yes those are the bit guards up on the side of the bridle, I didn't want to take the bit off and put it back on. The owies are at least 50% better than yesterday so that's good. https://vimeo.com/316345025 <- video


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

That last pic, her eye looks FREAKY! :lol: I don't think it looks obviously too small, but you could try a bit wider & see whether there's a difference. And it seems you don't have the old '3 wrinkle fit', but the bit could be pulling at the corner of her mouth a little still. Could try loosening it a hole or 2.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

To me that bit is to tight a fit....it barely fits now.
When you pit the guards in place the little extra space taken up now pinches the mouth to to tight a fit.
See for this reason I do not like o-rings for my horses.
I look at it as soon as you add bit guards you did away with the reasoning behind the o-ring in the first place...so why not use a eggbutt, d-ring and have a different bit end that does not create a pinch surface chance...
I understand the reasons behind o-rings but to me it defeats the purpose when bit guards are now in place..

To use a bit measure inside edge of ring to inside edge of ring is putting the mouth edge in harms way.
To use a bit that is measured to inside edge of a ring that is not hole drilled through and flexing piece of steel...it is a poor description but for me to use that o-ring with bit guards would have that horse in a minimum of 1/4" -1/2" larger mouthpiece to protect that soft tissue from rubs and pinches even with bit guards in place.

I'll try to describe it better/clearer as I think it...
So put the bit guards in place...stretch the bit and measure the inside of bit guard to inside edge of bit guard and what do you have.
If a 5" bit you only have 4.75 of space for the mouth.
If you had a 5.25 or 5.5" you would have 5" of space for the mouth. 
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## rambo99 (Nov 29, 2016)

There's no room for bit guards need a bigger bit that one isn't wide enough. Once bit guards are on it will cause pinching at corners of mouth,most people have there bits adjusted to tightly. Bit only needs to be just touching corners of mouth.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Thanks guys. I truthfully think she's more comfortable with the D ring anyhow, and I'm going to try it on her (probably) tomorrow, so long as it looks like her mouth is ok. It looks almost totally healed. If the D ring hurts her mouth though, I dunno. Maybe it's her teeth or something else wrong.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

If her mouth looks OK...give her 1 - 2 extra days for more than a thin surface heal to have taken place.
The mouth can heal quickly because of blood supply to that area...but it still takes a few days for the underneath tissue to heal and fuse together well.
To soon will get you having to start all over again. :frown_color:



Hold her lip carefully back and look at the mouth groove and see if it looks wide enough for the bit you want to try...
Bits come in different diameters for the barrels...that is what the actual mouthpiece is called, the barrel.
If you read a catalog carefully you will often see a diameter mentioned about the sizing...
Each horse is different, hence why people who ride many horses can have many bits since one size does not fit all.
Once you bit her again check that groove and make sure there is room so the bit can move when she swallows or mouths the bit for comfort reasons...
If to tight...well, go walk 2 miles in a shoe 1 size to small and see how you feel...that would be your horses reaction too..it hurts. Same idea...
Good luck.
:runninghorse2:...


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Tried her in the D-ring, still started to bruised. Stopped as soon as i noticed it. I'm thinking it's because she's not used to the snaffle because she's been ridden in bits that had leverage before, not just the bar pressure of the snaffle. Trainer suggested I work her in a halter (in contained area) to get her more responsive, then move up to the bit.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

So I've been riding her bitless for a little while and she's going well (getting better at it). I tried a bit again today to see if it worked. It bruised her again! I only rode for about 15 mins and it was hurting her. It bruised even before she started pulling a little. She pushes hard against the bit whenever I give her the "stop" cue. I'm guessing it's because it hurts her. I used a french link O-ring. My trainer thinks the bit might be to big but she hasn't seen it yet. I think it's been a couple years since she had her teeth done, but I have to call the vet to check the records. I don't know if it's the teeth. 

I was hardly putting pressure on the bit and it was not too high in her mouth. One or two wrinkles. Maybe her teeth are hitting it? She chews the bit a little but it's pretty much only if we're not going somewhere she wants to go. It's only one easy chomp at a time and not constant chewing.

I can try a rubber bit but I'm getting kind of frustrated with all this. 

I don't know of anyone in the area who does bitting specifically, any ideas on where to try and find someone like that? Maybe the equine dentist?


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## Kalraii (Jul 28, 2015)

So my horse is hard mouthed. I don't wanna comment on the bit sizing coz everyone else here pretty much taught ME about that haha. But mine used to realllllllllllllllllly lean on the bit at one point. Her teeth were *ridiculously overdue* (even tho I'd had her vetted and cleared for months on purchase -.-). She also had quite a head tilt but that's related to an old injury in her jaw. Things my instructor noticed during this period:

- she never foamed at the mouth (foaming is good, I then learned)
- she was always tight in the mouth, holding it clenched, NEVER relaxed
- when you applied pressure to halt she would heavily resist but when you released pressure she would ever so subtly grind her teeth (but only ever on release, as if relieved of pain). The bigger the pressure applied the bigger the grinding after
- she head tilted a lot but she we discovered TWO things later: she has an arthritic jaw on one side AND she had quite the ulcer from a sharp tooth
- all in all we all agreed (with the vet) that she was "running away" from the pain, trying to push against the bit to make it go away

One her pain was sorted and managed she was still in a habit of anticipating pain. So we had to soften her mouth which is as boring as it sounds - the moment she let's up she got some respite. Over time, talking months, and regular dentistry, shes so much better. In fact, I always give her the option of a verbal cue before using a physical so I can avoid overusing her mouth where possible. I look forward to other peoples responses as they are so helpful on here!


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

I have a question. 

_Maybe it's the broken mouthpiece? _When I rode her in a curb bit (just kind of for the heck of it) she did well. A little confused because she's used to more solid contact and not so much on the loose rein but she did well. And it did *not *bruise her mouth, whereas every single snaffle I have tried does. And it's not because she's pulling. She's always a little strong but there was no yanking or sawing on her mouth, nothing that should cause bruising.
The curb looks like this:









There are only two things I can think of that is different between this and the snaffles that would make a difference in her mouth bruising. The thickness isn't a factor because my snaffles of all different thickness didn't work. There's 1) the fact it uses leverage and not the direct pressure like the snaffle (though it still puts pressure on the bars?) and 2) it's not a broken mouthpiece. I think I can find out which one it is by using a Tom Thumb which she was ridden in before. If it begins to irritate her, it's probably the broken mouthpiece because in all other respects a Tom Thumb isn't any different from the curb I used. 

(she still hasn't had her teeth done but isn't having any issues with her mouth other than bitting. Our truck had issues and has been in the shop for weeks)

My main questions are, how might the curb be *not *hurting her in comparison the the snaffle? How would the broken mouthpiece be possibly hurting her but not the mullen? Do those mouthpieces affect the teeth differently? 

I have not tried a mullen mouth snaffle, but I want to. I'm just not sure how well she'll go in it. I could maybe get a type like a Myler that moves a little in the middle for clearer communication?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Not all horses go well in a snaffle. It's a myth that they are the gentlest option-- a horse that roots at the reins in a snaffle but not in a curb will find the curb more comfortable. I know many horses who are happier and go better in a curb than in a snaffle. A jointed mouthpiece puts pressure on the bars, tongue, lips, and sometimes the palate. In a non-leverage bit, that pressure is the first the horse feels. With a curb bit, the horse feels the cue through the rotation of the bit, the curb strap/chain, and poll pressure before it really applies pressure to the mouth. That 'signal' is what makes a soft, responsive horse. A mullen mouthpiece that your horse can carry on the tongue may be far more comfortable than a snaffle with jointed mouthpiece that puts pressure on the bars when you pull the reins. Horses have varying mouths, and what some find comfortable, others find painful, so trial and error is important. 



A horse who finds a jointed snaffle uncomfortable is one I will try in a low-port, loose-cheeked curb bit. Usually they settle down and go much better in that.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

If your wish is to do direct reining like is done English style then find a mullen mouth bit with eggbutt rings so no pinch, a bit of turning assistance and the horse carries the bit not you carrying the horse on your arms..
They make a actual straight bar and ergonomic slightly rounded mouthpieces...
I have both styles. My one horse likes the straight my other horse likes slightly curved ..















But the mullen mouth will take the pressure off the mouth edges and bars and put more of the pressure on the tongue, a thick spongy material that might make the difference in comfort or sore mouth.
If you use a eggbutt ring bit there is no poll pressure like you get in the curb bit line...
Once you put a shank and a headstall attachment ring that sits above the barrel of the bit you added leverage to any bit...the degree of leverage can vary but leverage applied, period.


You might also look to see if your horse is happy with a Billy Allen mouthpiece...many horses enjoy this and it can be found in English, western...direct rein snaffle or curb rein styles...















The way it is constructed the bit moves independent each side. 

:runninghorse2:...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If she doesn't like a snaffle, she will be less than thrilled with a French link. The Mullen mouth might be the way to go. However, if you said she goes well bit less, why not stick with that?


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

@*horselovinguy* I've been looking at the Billy Allen style bits. I like that they have a little more movement than just a straight metal bar. And It's either eggbutt, D-ring, or full-cheek for me. The full cheek sides get stuck on everything though.



@waresbear I'll certainly ride bitless more often, -like for trails- but she bends better in the bit. Dunno why but she does. And if I show English there are the rules about bits and all. She goes "ok" in a bitless setup. I'm kind of frustrated with her - we had a bad day today. She decided she didn't know what "whoa" meant and I just about wiped off while trying to lope the barrel pattern- she's not collected at the lope very well. (It could be the saddle though, tried something different) I want to find a good hackamore for barrel racing and playdays that isn't ridiculously strong. 



@SilverMaple I tried to find one of those curbs in my bit box- didn't have one. But at this point I think I'll try a mullen mouth snaffle. She went really nicely in the curb. Except for her needing correction for being a barn sour brat I barely had to move the reins.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

If you want to show, yes your horse has to be shown in a bit. I would try her in a ported snaffle and see how she goes.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

What are the advantages of a ported snaffle vs a straight mullen mouth aside from being a little stronger and giving some tongue relief?
This one is pretty much the same mouthpiece as my curb.











So pretty much I have three choices. I can't borrow any bits because I don't know anyone who has these. I can either get a regular mullen mouth eggbutt, a ported d ring, or a d ring with a Billy Allen/Myler mouthpiece. They're all about the same price, somewhere around 30$. Amazon has them and I'd use them because they're easier to return to. I checked the seller (One Stop Equine Shop) and it looked as if returning bits is ok but I'm not sure.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I am confused. Why don’t you just use the curb?

On another note, I think that the rule I follow is that when a horse gets shoes on that day you try and keep them off of gravel or any rocks because they will easily stone bruise if any sole was removed.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Knave said:


> I am confused. Why don’t you just use the curb?


Well, multiple reasons. For barrel racing, I like a bit that at least as the swivel shanks if it's a curb. Mine doesn't, so that'd mean another bit anyway. And then for jumper *if* I do it curbs aren't allowed. Also, I like the closer contact of a snaffle bit and my horse seems to as well. Even then I can still ride on a loose rein.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I wondered if they were allowed in English disciplines.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Fot English there's the pelham which can work like a curb but also like a snaffle. Two reins. Confusing. Most people don't jump in it.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I guess I don’t know what I’d do if I were you then. It would be hard to keep pressing something the horse doesn’t like though. I know when I was running barrels, or even now if I do on Bones, although I ride in a curb I put a broken mouthpiece in for running because the bend is better. 

Or, if I had a horse that liked a broken mouthpiece better, which I have had but not show horses, I would get them comfortable in a curb and only use it in a show pen after that.

I know a lot of people think that anything with a shank is not nice, but I don’t believe that unless you wanted to constantly ride with contact. It can be a gentler bit. In any case, I want to do what best benefits the horse and the training I am doing. (It goes without saying I wouldn’t put a horse in a bit it wasn’t prepared for.)

Like tennis shoes... I can’t stand wearing tennis shoes unless I am on a basketball court where they are necessary. They make my feet hurt and are too hot and heavy and I just hate them and almost feel claustrophobic in them. Most people would say tennis shoes are the best.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Actually... the pelham bit is the bit everyone jumped in years ago.
Few used simple snaffle bits.
Children, lead-line child riders rode handling 2 reins.
Hunter classes horses rode in pelhams...
Appointed classes the bridles were sewn in bits, headstall and reins...there were no buckles for adjusting, bridles were "fitted".

It is today when fad has taken over that you see fad bits...and bridle pieces.
3-ring gags, a this or that bit, weird crazy configurations of nosebands, headstalls that are to difficult to describe all with claims of comfort to the horse is made to separate $$ from your pocket.
I could open my ex-bosses bit box and show you things that would curl straight hair...all used and made for particular reasons...none of which to the unsuspecting eye look anything more than a simple single joint bit till you peer inside the mouth or drop the bit for inspection..
Even some of those innocent are not innocent bits to knowledgeable eyes. 

Yes, a pelham* would *work and you _are not _supposed to ride off the curb rein either but have that to finesse a communication given and shared. 
They make the exact mouthpiece you mention the horse enjoys riding with...








Look at polo bits...see it in many stores, catalog and online described as a polo bit.. _https://www.statelinetack.com/item/korsteel-polo-pelham-bit/SLT900241/_
Just remember the shorter the shank the less leverage applied when that rein is activated and the less purchase, the loop the headstall connects/hangs from, the closer that loop is to the actual barrel mouthpiece the less leverage is...
Combine shank length and purchase height and a innocent looking bit is far from innocent in any style of riding discipline..
The curb rein in English work to lighten the horse and offer extra communication to the horse in understanding...no different than a western trained horse actually.
Hence a true snaffle bit is headstall, rein and bit barrel mouthpiece _all using the same ring_ for attaching "stuff" to.
:runninghorse2:...


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Trainer keeps telling me I need a strong bit if I'm going to run barrels....I mean yeah I wouldn't run in a halter but nobody says I can't if my horse is trained to do so. I kind of like the looks of this one https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41-WQwefL0L.jpg ...similar mouth to mine but the sides swivel. 
That's a thing I like about curbs. They're not harsh if you use them right. I do want to try the ported D ring. 
Not a fan of gags. My gelding HATES them. When he was younger I tried to jump him in one...didn't work out so great. 
For some reason I feel unsure about using ported bits though. I mean you find what the horse likes and ride with it but I feel I should be able to have her 100% responsive in halter, sidepull, and snaffle with no flaws whatsoever before putting anything "bigger" in her mouth? I guess that's true...how harsh exactly would the ported D be compared to a mullen mouth D? I don't like feeling like I just made a temporary fix by "bitting up".


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

So...my gf runs her horses in a single joint snaffle or a 3-piece bit...
If correctly trained, you aren't hauling the face, neck and head around but the horse is working off of your legs and seat pressure with minimal rein pressure used...
The very best in the womens pro barrel racing...watch them closely.
They aren't hauling on the face, not at all...
They may pick the spot to make the dig and turn on but that refining communication is all of what they use the bit for...they ride off of seat, butt and legs!

Your trainer is looking for you to do shortcuts...
Yea, they work at slow speed runs but when it is time to get down and dirty and put the real pressure and turn the afterburners on...the horse with holes in training falls apart and it shows with the horrible looking pictures of inverted, wide-eyed, mouth barred open and hauled on face...
Watch the videos of those who win and win consistently how they ride their horse and with what equipment...
A bit is still only as harsh as the rider makes it...
Many do use a piece of twisted wire...but they don't touch the mouth...
Some of those barrel combo bits are horrible to see hanging...but you must see the person holding the rein in action to see what is truly involved.
But to "bit up" to skim over holes in training...no, just don't do that to you or your horse.
If this is the best your trainer can offer...find a new trainer!!

_If beau has not seen this thread...bring it to her attention.._
She barrel races, trains her own horses and has pleasant results. :smile:
:runninghorse2:...
_jmo..._


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

It's kind of making me want to barrel race in a halter and win just to prove a point. Like really...we went to a rodeo last night and God almighty this one girl came in on a wild eyed bucking paint and she was YANKING on that horse's mouth. With a very heavy bit too. I hate barrel racing bits! A lot of them anyway. I feel like the low levels is a bunch of half-wild horses and half-crazy riders. I mean my mare will not run if she's got a really heavy bit on. She just won't. She's still mad about the people before me hauling on her face i guess.

There is a bit of a reason the animal hippies pick on barrel racers. Some are crazy.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Might there be the possibility that this horse might never be a barrel horse?
She might be a terrific trail horse and a short shank English style mechanical hackamore might be a good piece of tack for her.
Just a thought...


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

I mean she would be an amazing endurance or just trail horse because she's half Arabian and just does not get tired. Whenever we go on trails we end up riding with the other Arabs and the Tennessee Walkers. Thing is, she's freaking fast. She's quick and can beat the shizzle out of the local barrel horses around here when on a pattern. I wouldn't be surprised if she could make an even 16 seconds _easily_. The fastest at the last race I went to was about 16.6. It's just that I can't find a bit to fit at the moment, for any discipline. I prefer the contact of a short/no shank bit vs one with shanks. First thing first is to get her teeth done and rule that issue out. (The darn truck has been in the shop for a month now. I'm just about to ask if I can borrow someone's rig because she needs a coggins and a teeth float)

But I was actually looking at those fleece/leather hackamores. I think she might like that, but I don't know. She's picky about those. I think she doesn't like the chain under the chin. When I wrap a curb chain with vetwrap or tape she does better. Her discomfort response is to ignore everything you tell her and just run. Like, I wouldn't use a Little S Hack on her. 

Sensitive Arabians....


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

People talk about bits like you can just rank them from softest to hardest based on the amount of leverage they have and the style and thickness of the mouthpiece. However, this is based on mechanics and physics but does not take into consideration the individual horse's anatomy and preferences. 

So let's say a thick, gentle snaffle is supposed to be more comfortable than a thinner curb bit with some leverage, but in reality the horse might have sensitive skin or touchy nerves on the tongue or bars and that "gentle" snaffle might be very painful for the horse. In contrast, the thinner curb might avoid all those areas and the horse might feel very comfortable with it hanging lightly off its tongue and only contacting with a light squeeze of the chain under the chin, which the horse responds to before it gets uncomfortable.

What is most important is what the horse tells you. My last mare was most comfortable in a myler curb and even if I rode with contact and direct reining (supposedly a "no-no" with a curb), she was quite comfortable and did not think it was harsh. Ditto for an English hackamore, which I would use with contact sometimes when galloping around, and people use them for speed work and jumping.

I've met a couple horses with pink skin and white mouths that were very sensitive to bits and could not be ridden in anything that applied pressure to the skin around or inside their mouths. 

As far as the mullen vs ported D goes, it really depends on the individual. My current gelding does not like tongue pressure or anything near the palate. So he did not like either a mullen mouth or a higher port, which I got thinking it would be kinder since he doesn't like tongue pressure. But he only likes a lower port, with relief for both his tongue and palate. A Kimberwicke is ideal for him. 









If I were showing, I'd ride mine in the Kimberwicke and then switch to either a D with a similar mouthpiece or a curb with a similar mouthpiece, depending on what I was doing. So I'd say find out what type of mouthpiece avoids the pressure your horse does not do well with, and then go from there.


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## Filou (Jan 16, 2014)

I would second looking into kimberwick after hearing how you want something with a short shank. The kimberwick lets you choose how much shank you use. 

Then there's something like this, which is similar in that it has a slot for the rein to go so it's not just loose in the ring. It would also apply some of the same principles of a curb bit. 









I'm not sure if you can use the slotted bits in english shows or not.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

A D ring has leverage, and there are ones with a port so it has tongue relief. If I do some further experiments and find she likes the port better than mullen, and a D is legal for English. I feel like I have better communication with a shorter shank or no shank at all. 

I have two kimberwickes. One I'm selling because it's a snaffle style one with a twisted mouth, don't like it. Horses don't really like it either. The other has a very thick mouthpiece and it doesn't work with her mouth. And I need to get it off the old bridle it's on now...chicago screws rusted lol. I'm not the biggest fan of kimberwickes though, I'd rather use a pelham if it came down to it. But it all depends on the horse. Some like them, some don't. And frankly if a horse likes the bit, ride them in it. I saw something somewhere that said a bit should be less than 5% of the rider's communication with the horse...seems reasonable. 

I'm not against using a "big" bit. I'm a firm believer that most of the time, the bit is only as hard as the rider. A horse can work in a spade bit better than most can work in a "gentle" one. There are some exceptions, like certain nasty chain bits and wire wrapped ones. But generally speaking as long as the horse and rider understand exactly what they're supposed to do with that bit...it's as gentle as can be.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ChieTheRider said:


> She got shod today so I decided we'd ride down to the dirt road and *have a bit of a run.*
> 
> She responds well to the bit at low speeds but when she goes faster it's like trying to stop a volkswagen with a bungee cord.
> 
> I don't know what to do though.


 If she does not respond well at speed, then do not allow her to "have a bit of a run". If you purposefully put her into a situation where she will "fail", then she will. Instead, set her up for success by only asking for speeds you know you can control her.


And yes, please get her teeth checked if it has been a couple years because at least that is something you can rule out for hurting her.



ChieTheRider said:


> My main questions are, how might the curb be *not *hurting her in comparison the the snaffle? How would the broken mouthpiece be possibly hurting her but not the mullen? Do those mouthpieces affect the teeth differently?


Some horses are much happier in a bit with a solid mouthpiece of some kind.

However, also keep in mind that the curb you posted is a lot more bit compared to a plain snaffle. It might be that it gives more "bite" and thus makes her respect it better and then she doesn't pull on you.

I much prefer to use "enough bit" on a horse so I do not have to pull. Rather than use something too light and then you end up pulling and creating sores, which also does nothing to soften the horse's mouth. When they have learned to respect the "bigger bit" then you can go back down to something lighter and keep the horse soft at the same time. You re-train them to be soft to anything.


Yes sometimes people will go to a bigger bit and then end up relying on that bigger bit to control the horse. But the difference there is that if you PULL on the horse in the bigger bit, then yes, you will just create a worse problem by bitting up and going stronger. The bit is only the training tool. If you do nothing different with your hands, then yes you will also create problems in the bigger bit. But if you ride them correctly and keep them soft, you can start with something they currently respect and then gradually reduce the bit.




ChieTheRider said:


> we had a bad day today. She decided she didn't know what "whoa" meant and I just about wiped off *while trying to lope the barrel pattern*- she's not collected at the lope very well. (It could be the saddle though, tried something different) I want to find a good hackamore for barrel racing and playdays that isn't ridiculously strong.


Quite honestly, you have a horse that you cannot stop and therefore you should be _nowhere near_ the barrels with her. You need to fix her training holes before you put her on the pattern. Stop working the barrels.

Again, do not put her into a situation right now where she is set up to fail.

And DO put her in something you can control her in. It is WORSE to her to put her in something too weak that you are going to pull on her with and get into a runaway situation, than to put her into a bit that she RESPECTS. Then work your way back down as the horse re-learns to respect the bit.




ChieTheRider said:


> *Trainer keeps telling me I need a strong bit if I'm going to run barrel*s....I mean yeah I wouldn't run in a halter but nobody says I can't if my horse is trained to do so.


What does your trainer say about you not being able to stop your horse? (I don't understand why your trainer would allow you to run barrels when your horse does not have the basics required to do so.)

While it is important to find the "right bit" for your horse that they like, I quite honestly think you are thinking too hard about this. *I believe that less of your problem is the bit, and more of the problem is TRAINING.* Focus on the training. There will not be a magical bit that will fix all her training holes.



ChieTheRider said:


> Like really...we went to a rodeo last night and God almighty this one girl came in on a wild eyed bucking paint and she was YANKING on that horse's mouth.
> 
> I feel like the low levels is a bunch of half-wild horses and half-crazy riders.


 So how does that differ from your horse running off with you the other day while you were doing the barrels at home?



I do agree there are plenty of barrel racers out there that give barrel racing a bad name. But if you can't even control your horse at home, I don't think you are in a position to be judging others.



ChieTheRider said:


> She's quick and can beat the shizzle out of the local barrel horses around here when on a pattern. I wouldn't be surprised if she could make an even 16 seconds _easily_. The fastest at the last race I went to was about 16.6. It's just that I can't find a bit to fit at the moment, for any discipline.


So.... I am confused now. She's won barrel races??
You say she can run a 16 at your local race .... but she hasn't?
I'm not sure if you are just talking up your horse, or if she ran barrel before you got her, or what.

Again, I think less of your problems have anything to do with the bit ... and more to do with training. The bit is not going to make you outrun everyone else by 6 tenths.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

@beau159 I agree, but I think we're having a misunderstanding here. 



> If she does not respond well at speed, then do not allow her to "have a bit of a run". If you purposefully put her into a situation where she will "fail", then she will. Instead, set her up for success by only asking for speeds you know you can control her.


I agree...I was being dumb here. My fault. I've since started from the bottom. Perfect groundwork. then perfect the walk. Then the trot. Then lope. Etc.

*1. *I can control her *now.* This thread was posted almost three months ago. Since then she has vastly improved. *Vastly.* Most of the time she'll stop on a dime *in a halter*. Now sometimes she gets spooked or hyped up or something and then doesn't listen, and that's a training issue. We're working on that. But most of the time she stops on _voice alone_. We've come a long way in three months. I think she'd be ready to actually race at full speed in a week or two if I actually worked with her. The reason it's taken a long time is because I'm still a full time student and nobody else rides my horses. I've got to do it all. And she's got to have her teeth done. 

*2.* No, she hasn't won races, *I didn't say she had*. I said I "wouldn't be surprised *if* she could". Now maybe she can't but I think it's a valid assumption that she can if she's responsive. IF. If is the big word here. 

*3. *Again, I can stop her. She was fine at a walk on the barrels. I wouldn't have trotted if she couldn't walk it. Then she was fine at the trot. I wouldn't have gone faster if she couldn't trot it. And she was fine at a slow lope, but it was there that it fell apart. She looked at the gate and went that direction. What frustrated me is not really that I almost fell or she didn't respond, but that a few days before I loped the pattern and she did *perfectly fine*. And then suddenly she went back to being a spaz. Part of it is separation anxiety from her buddy who was in the stall where she couldn't see him. 



> But if you can't even control your horse at home, I don't think you are in a position to be judging others.


See above. 



> However, also keep in mind that the curb you posted is a lot more bit compared to a plain snaffle. It might be that it gives more "bite" and thus makes her respect it better and then she doesn't pull on you.


Well aware of that, actually. And I considered that. I focused for the entire ride using seat/leg/neck rein aids instead of the bit. She stopped when I said "whoa" without me touching the bit.

The main reason I made this thread is to find a bit that she's comfortable with because for some reason the ones I tried didn't fit or made her uncomfortable in some way. I know she's got some responsiveness issues- *that's not what I'm worried about.* I can fix that. I have fixed that. But for example, I had a french link snaffle in her mouth with the bridle fitting and everything and just let her hang out in the round pen. No reins attached. I just watched her. Then I checked the bit a little later and lo and behold, bruising. So that had literally _nothing_ to do with my hands on the reins. The bit just didn't fit. 



> Again, I think less of your problems have anything to do with the bit ... and more to do with training.


I won't say this is always the case with bitting issues, but it usually is. Of course, the only reason a horse responds to any bit is because they were trained to. Unless someone just threw something harsh on their face to muscle them into stopping, which all her previous owners (barrel racers...) did. That's a great way to ruin a horse.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ChieTheRider said:


> *1. *I can control her *now.* This thread was posted almost three months ago. Since then she has vastly improved. *Vastly.* Most of the time she'll stop on a dime *in a halter*. Now sometimes she gets spooked or hyped up or something and then doesn't listen, and that's a training issue. We're working on that. But most of the time she stops on _voice alone_. We've come a long way in three months. I think she'd be ready to actually *race at full speed in a week* or two if I actually worked with her.


Well actually, it was only 4 days ago that you posted that she "forgot" how to stop. I would say you still have holes that need fixing and absolutely NOT ready to RUN barrels at full speed in 1 week.



ChieTheRider said:


> The reason it's taken a long time is because I'm still a full time student and nobody else rides my horses. I've got to do it all. And she's got to have her teeth done.


Long time? I don't think 3 months is _enough_ time, for a horse to go from uncontrollable to running barrels at full speed. That's a very short time frame to accomplish all that.



ChieTheRider said:


> Again, I can stop her. She was fine at a walk on the barrels. I wouldn't have trotted if she couldn't walk it. Then she was fine at the trot. I wouldn't have gone faster if she couldn't trot it. And she was fine at a slow lope, but it was there that it fell apart. She looked at the gate and went that direction. What frustrated me is not really that I almost fell or she didn't respond, but that a few days before I loped the pattern and she did *perfectly fine*. And then suddenly she went back to being a spaz. Part of it is separation anxiety from her buddy who was in the stall where she couldn't see him.


And again, all these things tells me she is absolutely not ready to be running barrels. 

It is normal to have setbacks in training. It's kind of the way that horses learn. So that's okay that she had a bad day. However, I'm a pretty big stickler on having working brakes at all times no matter what. That's a hard line for me, for safety reasons. 

What bit were you using on her that day? (Or what have you been using?)



ChieTheRider said:


> She's quick and can beat the shizzle out of the local barrel horses around here when on a pattern.
> 
> No, she hasn't won races, *I didn't say she had*. I said I "wouldn't be surprised *if* she could". Now maybe she can't but I think it's a valid assumption that she can if she's responsive. IF. If is the big word here.


But you did say she "can beat" the barrel horses here, you made it sound like she has. That's what confused me.



ChieTheRider said:


> The main reason I made this thread is to find a bit that she's comfortable with because for some reason the ones I tried didn't fit or made her uncomfortable in some way.


Well if you still haven't gotten her teeth done, personally, I wouldn't waste time trying so many different bits at this point in time just in case it's her TEETH that are the issue and not the bit. So make that your next priority to get her to the dentist, and then figure out the bit after that.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

The day she had some brake issues i was riding in a sidepull. No bit. 

Working on getting her teeth done. Truck is still inthe shop


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ChieTheRider said:


> The day she had some brake issues i was riding in a sidepull. No bit.


A sidepull certainly has little to no brakes. Of course, I would not ride her out in the open again with that at this point in time. Again, don't let yourself get into a situation where she could potentially run off if she tried.



ChieTheRider said:


> But I was actually looking at those fleece/leather hackamores. I think she might like that, but I don't know. She's picky about those. I think she doesn't like the chain under the chin. When I wrap a curb chain with vetwrap or tape she does better. Her discomfort response is to ignore everything you tell her and just run. Like, I wouldn't use a Little S Hack on her.


Honestly, I was going to suggest you try a Little S Hack if you have access to one, if you prefer to go the bitless route for the time being. I think it's a matter of that since she is used to being able to run through everything, and you need to re-teach her that it's not acceptable. Whether or not she is uncomfortable, that is not an "excuse" for her to push through the bit. I would honestly use a rope nose Little S Hack because she needs to knock it off and RESPECT what you have on her head. She's going to respect that rope noseband. If you don't need to use it (not apply any pressure), then don't. But you want it available if you need it.

Is it possible that she doesn't like the chain under her chin because she either doesn't understand it or doesn't respect it? (and not that she's uncomfortable)


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

I think she doesn't understand the chain. There are no signs of actual pain caused from the chain so she probably just doesn't get it. The "sizepull" had a rope nose and the curb strap was one with a chain. That's not entirely why but I think she's worse with a chain vs a leather strap. 

I know it's not an excuse for her to run through. There's no excuse for her running off like that. I was in a smaller field and normally I wouldn't fall off if she took off like that. Normally when she gets pushy we circle down to go slower or I just make her run till she decides that's not going to get her anywhere. I don't put up with her mess. I didn't get off when I almost fell, I got up and we loped big circles. 

Before I had her she'd try to buffalo people into doing what she wanted. She was being ridden in a hackamore combo gag bit and not because she liked it. It was only because the rider was scared to death of horses and didn't like that Tess was too fast. So she sawed on her mouth all the time and that just made Tess frustrated as you can imagine. There's a reason she's got some issues. 

No racing is in the near future. The event season is slowing down for the summer anyhow. I'll soon have access to a round pen (Juneish) so we can do some extremely controlled work. She can't go anywhere in a round pen. Time to watch some Warwick Schiller vidoes....


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

ChieTheRider said:


> A D ring has leverage, and there are ones with a port so it has tongue relief. If I do some further experiments and find she likes the port better than mullen, and a D is legal for English. I feel like I have better communication with a shorter shank or no shank at all.


Huh? A D ring has no leverage unless you are talking about one with slots. Slots aren't legal in some English disciplines. You'd also need to check the rulebook on ports.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

A D ring has some leverage, just a little bit. When the reins tighten the D rotates instead of just plain pulling.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ChieTheRider said:


> Normally when she gets pushy we circle down to go slower or I just make her run till she decides that's not going to get her anywhere.



I caution you on the second part. For some horses, making them run until they don't want to anymore can really backfire and make the problem worse. In your situation with a horse that does not stop well, I personally would not be doing that.





ChieTheRider said:


> I'll soon have access to a round pen (Juneish) so we can do some extremely controlled work. She can't go anywhere in a round pen. Time to watch some Warwick Schiller vidoes....



Why wait until June? There's no reason you can't work on her riding or ground work issues little by little, with the surroundings you have. No round pen necessary! 



Correct "round penning" is NOT to allow the horse to run around loose like a nut. I person to have them on a line anyway to work on their body control, which is why you can easily work on body control and ground work without a round pen. If all you have is the middle of the yard by the barn, great! Use that. Fences are helpful but they are NOT necessary. You can make do with whatever you have.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Oh of course, I am working on ground work. Whenever there's an issue I work from the ground up. And I'm not waiting till June to work, I'm just waiting till June to do some no-rein ground work. Providing she doesn't run around and be crazy. If she does we won't work without a rein. But I worked in a makeshift round pen (until out cows broke it) and she benefited a lot from it. With no rein. I just want a contained area to work on more liberty type things. And no, she's not so explosive that she can't learn a couple voice commands and work without tack in a round pen. She can lunge though.

And I don't really run her till she won't run anymore. I tried this years ago and it did. Not. Work. If she begins to actually take off then we slow and go back the the next slowest gait. Not running her into the ground, just easy work. I couldn't run her till she was tired even if I wanted to. She's got way more energy than I do. 

Also good news, the truck is fixed. We should be able to get it this weekend and if that's the case I'll call the vet to get a dentist appointment for Tess. It's gonna be an expensive trip. She needs teeth and a coggins and Jay might need to come get a shot for his allergies.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

ChieTheRider said:


> A D ring has some leverage, just a little bit. When the reins tighten the D rotates instead of just plain pulling.



There needs to be a purchase and lever for there to be leverage. The reins are free on a D ring so they will move to be even with the mouth piece, the rings don't move..


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

We got her teeth done. I waited a few days to make sure she wasn't sore then tried in a mullen mouth eggbutt. That rubbed her inner cheek less than the broken mouthpiece but I checked today and there is bruising all along the inside of her lips and her tongue. Maybe the bit was too thick, idk. So that's out. I've got a rubber type bit arriving tomorrow and I'm going to try that once she's completely healed. She did like the straight mouth better than the broken though, so there's that. 

I might try that ported D. The mouth looks thinner than the eggbutt I tried. She's just not advanced enough to ride in the curb yet. 

She's not hard mouthed, she's hard headed. Her mouth is apparently really sensitive.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Here's a pic of her mouth from a few days ago. (Attatched below) This is always where the bruising is. UGH. 

And...this may be a wild stab in the dark, but i wonder if something like a waterford mouthpiece would work for her? She does lean on the bit and maybe that's part of the bruising issue, with a waterford it's kinda hard to lean because they can't grab at it and go as easily. I've ridden her in a war bridle type thing (just a rope in her mouth) and she didn't lean. People say a waterford is a good loose rein bit. I don't know much about them. Some people say they're "harsh" but I think that's more of a hands issue.

Just to be sure I'm not talking about a chain bit. Noooo siree. I mean the one with the little round metal "beads". Some people call those waterfords but they're not lol.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Where the bruising is, her inner lip is getting pinched between the bit and her teeth. It's not because the bit is too small, I've checked that. It doesn't do it in the curb but I'm thinking that's because of how the bit attaches to the bridle and how the bit doesn't pull back against her cheeks like a snaffle does. So uh, is there a snaffle that doesn't pull her lips into her teeth?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

That's tricky because the concept of a snaffle is that it pulls back toward the teeth, so if a horse has loose/thick lips that can definitely happen.

Possibly a kineton noseband adjusted right could prevent the bit from being pulled back far enough and would transfer the pressure to the nose instead. 

I'd still suggest a kimberwicke which as a very mild curb rotates rather than pulls back, and yet can also be used for direct reining and used as a snaffle.

My guess is that a Waterford would be worse for the loose lip issue, since it has more movement in the mouth.


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

I rode her in a kimberwick (twisted mouth- ew I know) a long time ago and it did not bother her mouth. I'll check again and make sure...but maybe I just have to use a bit that won't pull back on her lips like a snaffle will. I could try a baucher style bit or a D ring with hooks...the D ring with hooks is "unconventional" for hunter as far as I know but if you don't use a curb chain with it there's a good chance nobody will notice.

Here's a prime example of how a snaffle isn't always the kindest bit....


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Honestly with a mouth that sensitive I'd stay away from snaffles of any sort. I would stick to curbs, since she does rather well in those, or bitless something-or-other. And I wouldn't necessarily rule out something like a little S either … I swore up and down when Dreams was green that he'd never make a hackamore horse. One day I slapped a bosal on him just for kicks and wouldn't you know it, that ****** is the best darn hackamore horse I've ever rode. He is so incredibly soft and responsive in a bosal or a sidepull - but when I tried a little S on him he was terrible. He hated that thing. I would have figured he'd go okay in it. 

He also HATES snaffles of any sort. I tried bunches. He grinds his teeth, he lugs on the bit, he shakes his head. He doesn't like any mouthpiece that moves in his mouth - the quieter the bit sits, the more he likes it. You know what I've found he likes the most? A cathedral spade with a 4" port. It looks like it's going to rip his tonsils out but he carries it so nice and quiet. His mouth is moist, he works the cricket gently, he never resists, he is only soft and quiet with a relaxed expression. 

SO - I wouldn't rule out a bit or hackamore until it's actually been used on your horse, but I'm guessing you'll have more luck with either a curb or bitless. You never know what they're going to like - it might be something you'd swear they will do horrible in, or you might think "This one is perfect!" and your horse might hate it. You never know until you try it. Ride what your horse wants. Hell, if you said your horse does well in a halter, ride in a halter - you said your horse will run the pattern and stop in a halter just fine, and I may be wrong but I don't think there are any rules against running barrels in a halter? I do however second the opinion that running the pattern is probably going to end up pear-shaped until you fix your brakes - I, too, think you've got a training issue more than a bitting issue.

-- Kai


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

Oh yeah, brakes are almost always a training issue. Tess will stick her head down and take off if the bit hurts her though, so that's more of a discomfort issue. kind of want to try a bosal some time, can't hurt. Then there are those fleece lined hackamores or the leather ones. Well see what she goes in. 

Yep, no rules about tack in barrel racing as far as i know. You could go in tackless and dressed as a clown and nobody would care so long as you made it around the barrels fast without hitting them.

The D ring with hooks i looked at was entirely a curb bit.Technically anyhow. It functions like a kimberwick, which is a curb. It's milder than something with a nutcracker action imo. No broken mouthpiece either, she's much quieter in something that doesn't move.


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