# Tucking head excessively



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

relaxation, relaxation, relaxation. That's how you start. If possible, take him on trail rides and ride him as much as possible on the buckle (only if you are good at shortening your reins quickly in the case of an emergency)

just get him to walk out , forard, and do , basically NOTHING, for awhile. get him to dis associate going forward with sucking behind the bit. I deeply hate this bad habit, and am tempted to hate the person who instilled this, but I dont' really mean 'hate'. Just, well, . . grr .r .r.r.r. . . 

So, lots of walk on a loose rein.

eventually, you work on encouraging him to come up to 'meet' the rein, and then you do noting. then you get him to actually take the rein forward, like stretch his head down to get a carrot off the ground (with the bit in his mouth).

I think ground exersizes will be of little value, since his coming behind the bit is a habit associated with RIDING, and he may not even exhibit this behavior when you lunge or lead him.


be patient. He thought he was being a 'good boy' do curl up, so it's going to take awhile to change that response to the bit.


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## maxinekylie (Mar 21, 2018)

Thank you for the advice. I totally agree in being sad this habit was ever given to him. I totally understand its going to take a long while to break the habit. I am so excited to start working on relaxing the little guy though. Thank you so much for the advice again.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I don't know how bad yours is, but this was Fergie when we first got her






We worked her out of it by adding leg and literally 'lifting' her out of it...It has taken a while, but 2 years later she now does this






Looking for the contact rather than curling behind it....lots of patience, lots of leg, lots of corrections.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

You are discovering the "fad" way of going current today in several disciplines...
Behind the vertical, over bent, muzzle to chest the more the better..... yuck!
It took time to learn it, it will take time to unlearn it and a new way of being allowed and permitted to move.
He learned to travel this way as self-preservation to evade the hands and hurt they did to his mouth.
Over-contact, heavy hands, evasion is a nasty one to re-reach and many horses re-taught do revert back to some of their old habit ways at times...
Watch the horse move "at liberty", freely in a turnout....that is your horses natural tendency to carry their body.
It is only when us humans get involved the horse, well...sometimes moves weird and unnatural. :icon_rolleyes:
Slow and steady to unlearn the habit...continual reinforcement of the better way to carry the body will be a task for you to teach and ample praise being done.
It will take some time for your guy to learn and understand he is allowed, permitted and expected to put his head naturally. 
Someone will_ not _be in his face, rolling him into a ball as I call it...but he is allowed, encouraged to go long and low compared to what he does now... 
Patience...lots of it for you.

Good luck with your new guy. :smile:
:runninghorse2:...


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I had a horse like this 2 summers ago. He was actually my aunt’s horse that she needed to sell (he was too much horse for her and she just wasn’t in a place in her life to have horses). I put some miles on him to tune him up for her and get him sold. 

His history was a bit unknown but she thought he had some reining training at one point. IMO it was someone who did it WRONG because when you picked up on the bit at all, his nose was to his chest and his steering was horrible! (I’d turn his nose to the left and his body would move off to the right)

First thing I did was put him back into a plain snaffle. Any type of curb bit really made it worse. I also pretty much stayed off his mouth completely and tried to just let him be a horse and travel naturally again. So we hit the trails!

I was really surprised at how quickly he seemed to come out of it. I was expecting it to be a very hard habit to break but he actually started doing really nice in just a couple weeks. One good thing is that he did have a very soft mouth, despite his bad habits. So he went very well in a snaffle. 

I really really liked him. Such a pretty horse and such a pleasant personality. Someone had just given him some bad habits -poor guy. If I wasn’t boarding and had my own place , I probably would have kept him for myself. 

So I guess my advice is to put him back into a snaffle, if you haven’t already, and get out of the arena or round pen and let him relearn how to travel without having his nose in his chest. Stay off the reins as much as you can and really use your legs and seat instead.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I'll just basically repeat what everyone else said, it's his way of evading or hiding from the bit.
Put him in a snaffle, take him outside and let him figure out you're not going to put him in that spot.
If he needs a little help steering use only one rein at a time and hold your hand out to the side and to front of you rather than back to the hip just to help tip the nose and give direction. I could almost guarantee if you try to pull the rein back and out he'll end up putting his head back to his evasion spot.

Some reject reiners, depending on who they come from, have this issue and it can make it difficult sometimes when transitioning into a new job. It'll feel like you've got it fixed but they can revert back to it when learning something new and get a little worried trying to figure it out. Something to be mindful of.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

This YouTube channel has many fantastic videos on working with horses who tuck back behind the vertical, getting them to stretch down and relax through their toplines.

https://www.youtube.com/user/ArttoRide/videos


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Agree with Cowchick77 - its is a lot about evasion - they find a way to be comfortable when the pressure's too much and getting behind the bit is one of the tricks they learn. 
Its also about muscle memory and a fake headset. 


You can help remove that muscle memory by riding in a bitless sidepull on a light contact if he's safe to do that - it takes away the knee jerk reaction to the bit in his mouth 
I don't find that riding on a long loose rein helps because they've already developed that headset and even on a long rein and zero contact they'll carry their head that way - something I discovered with Arabians that had been trained like that.
I have a mare that had been trained like it and found that she needed to accept contact and ride into contact to move on from that way of going. I had her in a Happy Mouth shaped mullen mouth bit for a long time and she eventually stopped doing it and went from avoiding contact to seeking it


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think you cannot totally address the issue solely by riding on a loose rein. However, this is a good way to start. It's people spending too much time and energy and focus on fiddling in their mouths, in the first place, that causes this.

When you have the feeling that your horse is relaxed and you are feeling some connection to him, you start experimenting with how much rein contact he can tolerate before he retreats to that old evasion.

you do this, perhaps, with just one rein at first. A horse will feel a WHOLE lot more like that have an escape route when only one rein is lifted/tightened, as compared to two. start 'talking' to him through one rein for a bit, and find small things you can 'ask' with the rein, that he can do successfully, and give him a huge reward of slack rein.

do this a lot. the idea is to teach him that he CAN earn a release, and that the contact will be very brief, and how long is under his control.

At some point, you will have to address his reaction of curling. And, patience is required. you do need more leg, at this point, and you need very steady hands that just stay where they are supposed to be and 'wait' while the horse finds how to meet you.

when he curls behind, you add a bit more leg. If he goes up, you simply raise your hands correspondingly, so that your 'presentation' fo the bit to him is unchanged. if he sucks behind, you move your hand just a bit, so that he still has a wee bit of contact, and the SECOND he comes forward (probably the last thing he will try in his quest to escape the bit), you give him some looseness.

you can, in time, give him a reward with only one rein, keeping the other one in the same contact you are eventually wanting him to tolerate , without curling up.


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## Layneywashere (Apr 6, 2018)

This sounds like an issue that will take some time to correct. I would ride him on a looser rein, doing a lot of flexion, and moving his shoulders. Try and move and bend all those muscles around to loosen all those muscles up. Collection shouldn’t be your goal for right now, focus on loosening everything up and getting him moving forward and freely.


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## DanielDauphin (Mar 11, 2014)

Agree with pretty much everything that has been said. Will add one thing. You don't mention what type of riding you do or what bit you use. If you are riding in a curb type bit, there are certain balanced of design that will help/hurt your cause. Anything with a straighter shank (especially if a taller port is being used) will be finding a neutral position near the vertical. In other words, gravity is acting on a straighter cheeked bit so that the only time it isn't giving the horse some signal is when they are on the vertical. Thus, if you have an obedient horse to the bit and you pick up the reins at all, they'll automatically be behind the vertical. The answer is to find a bit that has more curvature in the shanks or some weight behind the axis of the shank and mouthpiece. This type of bit, when held by two finger on its bars, will rock forward. Thus, this cheek balance type will be asking the horse to stay in a much more natural headset in front of the vertical until the reins are taken up and he's asked to get in frame.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

I defer to Daniel as the bit expert if you want to use a shanked bit. 

However, I would begin by working this horse in a simple double jointed snaffle until the issue you mention is resolved. Helping a horse overcome a developed tendency to over-flex the head and neck often takes time. So be patient. 

If the horse is lowering his neck as well as tucking his head back, it may help to try to reach your hand (or hands) forward and upward in gentle guidance when trying to help the horse understand he doesn’t need to tuck his head so much. This needs to be done with tact and its effectiveness may depend on the length of your arms and the length of the horse’s neck. Observe the results and use or discontinue the technique accordingly. This technique can only work with a snaffle bit. With a shanked bit, the technique would have the opposite effect.

The most important thing is to try to relax as much as possible and do what you can to help your horse relax. Let him know he doesn’t need to fear you, only accept your guidance. Try riding with little or no contact. Talk calmly to the horse as you ride. If he over-tucks his head, tell him he doesn’t need to do so. Some horses understand much more human speech than we often give them credit for. We may also unknowingly change what we are doing when we verbalize things, so the horse may be picking up on this.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This general advice comes from Lt Col Chamberlin, who literally wrote the book on riding for the US Cavalry in the late 1930s:



> One rule which is unchanging in regard to the action of the rider's hands, but not in regard to their position, is as follows: *Whenever the horse places his head in a position other than the correct one, the hands are moved to where they can increase tension on the bit and make his mouth uncomfortable*. In these cases, they must be so placed that the horse cannot possible escape the bit's tension for a fraction of a second, until the rider permits it. When he ultimately seeks to avoid discomfort by putting his head in the correct position - *and then only* - the hands must soften immediately...In the first instances, it is better to let the reins go slack when rewarding the horse...


It uses what Tom Roberts considered a basic rule of training horses: "*This will profit you. This will profit you not.*"

The horse tucks his head to get relief from the bit. So...when he tucks his head, don't give him relief. But the moment he starts to untuck his head, give him total relief.

In a snaffle, pulling back no longer works when a horse tucks his head. But if you hold your hands out to the sides, you can still give an unpleasant feeling side-to-side with the bit. And any time he untucks, just a little bit, give him lots of slack.

In a curb bit, it is easier to continue to apply pressure. Move your hand out over the neck, to keep the same geometry with the reins that you normally have with an untucked head, and give nagging bumps - not a steady pull, but NAG - until the horse realizes he is not getting relief, and tries something else. And the moment he tries untucking, give him lots of slack.

Ultimately, he needs to learn that tucking is unproductive, and that there is no reason to ever tuck at all. He needs to learn to trust the bit. But he tucks to get relief...so don't give him relief when he tucks.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> the late 1930s:
> 
> It uses what Tom Roberts considered a basic rule of training horses: "*This will profit you. This will profit you not.*"
> 
> ...


That's rather like using more abuse to deal with a situation that was caused by abuse in the first place
The horse might not be behaving correctly but he's doing it because he's been 'trained' to do it by someone using forceful methods.
Nagging at the mouth is only going to reinforce the horse's viewpoint that bits are a tool of pain and won't encourage him to seek the contact or trust the bit. He'll also learn to stick his nose in the air to avoid the new form of force so you're replacing one fault with another one.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> That's rather like using more abuse to deal with a situation that was caused by abuse in the first place...Nagging at the mouth is only going to reinforce the horse's viewpoint that bits are a tool of pain...


That hasn't been what happened the two times I've tried it - with both Mia and Bandit.

First, I did NOT suggest one abuse the horse's mouth. Making things "uncomfortable" means just that - the horse does not get the relief it seeks. You do not "punish" the mouth. You just don't allow the horse to get relief. 

As Tom Roberts put it:



> _“That will profit you – that will profit you not.”
> _​
> These terms mean exactly – exactly – what they say.
> 
> ...


WHY does a horse go behind the bit? To get relief. So PART of the answer is to simply stop putting objectionable pressure on the horse's mouth. But suppose the horse had already learned the habit? So...you teach him that there is no "profit" in continuing it. If doing X brings the horse relief from pressure, he'll keep doing X. If doing X brings no relief, then he'll have to try some other answer - which is why you give TOTAL release the moment he makes a small improvement.

"_He'll also learn to stick his nose in the air to avoid the new form of force so you're replacing one fault with another one._" 

Again, I've only had two horses to try it on - and neither showed ANY tendency to stick their noses in the air as a result. If the horse has learned that X works for him (relief), and you want him to stop doing X, then a very good step is making sure X *stops working*. NOT PUNISHMENT. JUST *STOPS WORKING*. "_That will profit you not_." You do not punish the mouth. But neither do you reward his wrong behavior by letting him get release by doing X.

When it stops working, the horse has a reason to look for another solution. And when he does, you reward him.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I understand what bsms is saying. And, I agree. But, the reason I started out saying to ride with little or not contact for some time is to show the horse that he can move around that way, just fine, undersaddle. It's to spend some time kind of changing the horse's perception of what being ridden means. 

Before, it meant; rider gets on, as soon as she is ready to go, she picks up and tightens rein, and then pushes me into that, and HOLDS me there. 
such an experience leads the hrose to anticipate the discomfort and go immediately to his 'escape' position, with the tiniest contact of the bit.

To me, before utlitizing the bit/rein to change his mind, I would have him experience prolonged freedom.

But, if riding on contact is part of what is required of the horse, or, if the horse is using this curling up to evade the bit when it comes time to ask the horse to stop (running right through the bit), then eventually you HAVE to get the hrose to become honest to the bit, and that means you have to take up contact again.

And then, you would use the thing that bsms is talking about; you would make it so that his curling back behind the bit doesn't 'work' for him.

you could do that by maintaining exactly the same level of contact with his mouth as you'd want him to have if he weren't curling. And, you can put additional leg on to get him to move forward more (making his curling be less of a rest for him i.e. 'not profit him').
I think of it less of trying to remove his 'profit' as staying constant with your request. you are asking him "please come forward to meet this bit".

the thing is, he does not have trust in the bit, since his former rider gave him no reason to. He does not trust that he can stretch out more forward, or that trainging sessions will have frequent breaks, etc. So, you have to be UBER ready to find places to reward his tries. So, yes, you have to make it so that his curling behind does not feel like a 'right answer' to the bit, but you have to find many, many places to show him that he CAN find a right answer in other positions, and freedom from the bit is his for taking but not by fleeing it, more by trusting it.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms said:


> WHY does a horse go behind the bit? To get relief. So PART of the answer is to simply stop putting objectionable pressure on the horse's mouth. But suppose the horse had already learned the habit? So...you teach him that there is no "profit" in continuing it. If doing X brings the horse relief from pressure, he'll keep doing X. If doing X brings no relief, then he'll have to try some other answer - which is why you give TOTAL release the moment he makes a small improvement.
> 
> .



While the horse will initially go behind the bit to evade the pressure, the longer that form of pressure is used the more the head/neck set ceases to become evasion and muscle memory turns it into its natural way of going in reaction to having a bit in its mouth and a rider on its back.
You can remove all the pressure and ride on the lightest contact and that horse will continue to go with its head behind the vertical. 
You can push it forward with your legs and the horse will just go faster but won't stretch out to seek contact and will also find it hard to extend the length of its stride.
If you look at western pleasure Arabian horses - they hold their heads in that position without any rein pressure at all because they've spent so much time being worked in artificial contraptions it becomes normal to them. 




When this horse is at liberty he holds his head in a very different position to the one he's conditioned to hold it in when ridden




same horse in training on the lunge






Even though what they're doing is wrong, they're doing it because that's what was wanted from them.


The idea for giving a sharp upwards tap on the reins will work for horses that lean down on your hands and get on the forehand but these horses don't lean - they're actually super light on your hands
What you want them to do is stretch forwards - long and low - as you do in a free walk or free trot and you won't achieve that by doing any sort of nagging on their heads


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## maxinekylie (Mar 21, 2018)

Wanted to update you all. We have a week of riding under us now and I have only been using a pullstyle hackamore because looking at his teeth they looked sharp and beyond ready to be floated. I didnt want him to associate the bit with pain and very much wanted him to relax so after riding in the round oen and feeling he responded well to a side pull, I brought him to the arena. He has relaxed his headset completly, the only time he tucks now is when you que him to (hands up and pulled in if that makes sense) which is not how I ride. His teeth were floated today, but I dont want to put him in a bit until I work on his flexation. His head set has been so off that he doesnt flex well. Although he is already improving in that catagory in ONE week! I think I have myself a little rockstar who is happy to please and happy to have relief from his old persons riding habits. We have a lot more to work on but this is a great start.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Yeah! I had a feeling he would blossom with correct care.


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