# True black, smoky black, fading black



## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Soo, I was having a conversation the other day about black horses, and nobody could seem to agree on the fading aspect. A few questions came up.

Do true black horses sun bleach?
Is smoky black and fading black the same thing? If not, what's the difference?

For example, my horse is black. During the summer I don't do anything to keep her that way and she bleaches out to look a very dark bay. Would this make her a fading black, or smoky black... Or are they the same? She couldn't be a true black, right? I don't know much about black color genetics, and I'd like to learn more!

Also something I just thought of. I know in middle school it was all the rage to get Peroxide or lemon juice, lather up your hands and streak it through your hair, and then sunbathe - and it would give you "highlights" in your hair. Could I do this with a horse? Because it would be fun to paint a design on Clem's butt and have it bleach lighter.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

True black and fading black are genetically the same. BLACK. 

Smokey black is a black horse with the cream gene. 

Your horse is a black that just happens to sun bleach. 

As for the bleaching. I don't know and I don't know anyone who has tried it.


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> True black and fading black are genetically the same. BLACK.
> 
> Smokey black is a black horse with the cream gene.
> 
> ...


So when people say a true black horse will not fade or bleach, that is just myth? I've always wondered.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Not all blacks will sun bleach or fade. Some people use "true" black as to mean a horse that doesn't bleach in the sun.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Not all blacks will sun bleach or fade. Some people use "true" black as to mean a horse that doesn't bleach in the sun.


Do you know what it is that determines whether or not a horse will sun fade?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Nope. Some people speculate on a lack of copper, others speculate on different things. There is no for sure known reason why one horse will fade and another wont.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Nope. Some people speculate on a lack of copper, others speculate on different things. There is no for sure known reason why one horse will fade and another wont.


Thanks for all your answers!

I have another one to throw at you (or whoever). I know true blacks have black skin. Is this ONLY true blacks? Is it a reliable way of determining type? So, I could go out to my pony and look at her skin to determine if she's a true black or not?


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I don't know much about genetics. I do know that Vida is a black with a silver gene. She will fade in the summer but it's more of a dappling than a fading. Her mane and tail are always black and she has no other markings anywhere.
A good site with fairly easy to understand genetic stuff- Starting Point


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Nope, skin color won't differentiate between a "true" black or any other kind. Most colored horses do have black skin. My gray, who was born a buckskin, has black skin...as do the rest of my horses and I've got nearly every one of the common colors at my house; bay, brown, black, gray, buckskin, chestnut.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Vidaloco said:


> I don't know much about genetics. I do know that Vida is a black with a silver gene. She will fade in the summer but it's more of a dappling than a fading. Her mane and tail are always black and she has no other markings anywhere.
> A good site with fairly easy to understand genetic stuff- Starting Point


Your horse can't be black with a silver gene. If she were, then she would have a paler mane and tail, especially considering she is a RMH. They tend toward a lot of expression. Even other breeds, while they may not get the full silver effect in the mane and tail, most will have a definitely noticeable change in colour of mane and tail.

And that website is a really old one, with a lot of misinformation on it now that we know more about the genetics. One of the best sites is this one: Equine | Color Genetics not only do they have a lot of really accurate information, but they will keep up with current research very quickly.


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## toosexy4myspotz (Oct 7, 2007)

We were told by a vet/nutritionist that our black TWH was considered a "Black Chestnut" which I have never heard of. However, on ground flax he stays jet black. I think the sun bleaching is a lack of omega 3's


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Chiilaa said:


> Your horse can't be black with a silver gene. If she were, then she would have a paler mane and tail, especially considering she is a RMH. They tend toward a lot of expression. Even other breeds, while they may not get the full silver effect in the mane and tail, most will have a definitely noticeable change in colour of mane and tail.
> And that website is a really old one, with a lot of misinformation on it now that we know more about the genetics. One of the best sites is this one: Equine | Color Genetics not only do they have a lot of really accurate information, but they will keep up with current research very quickly.
> .


I always assumed (obviously wrong) that what caused Vida's dapple was the silver gene. I also, again obviously wrongly, assumed that in order for a RMH to have the chocolate flaxen coloration was for one parent to have the silver gene. I was told by the breeder that Vida had the silver gene. Of course that was 10 years ago. Can a gene not be present but not express itself to a parent only to it's offspring? As I stated I'm not a geneticist but by the information on the site you offered. "The dominant allele of extension 'E' causes the production of eumelanin in the horse's coat causing a "black base color"...ALL other phenotypes other than red and black are caused by the addition of other modifiers/diluters"

Dilutions-
*"Black Silver (Chocolate, Silver Dapple) *A black horse with silver *can* range in shade from creamy to nearly black in color.* The mane and tail can be from white to a color similar to the base coat,* or appear sooty. *The body commonly has dapples*. They were traditionally mistaken for flaxen liver chestnuts, or very sooty palominos. But the roots of the hair and the lower legs are both areas which usually appear lighter in true chestnut horses." I will be sure to check the expiration date on any further information I attempt to share. 


Vida is obviously the black one. Saro, her daughter is the chocolate flaxen.. They are all summer faded in this photo.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I thought I'd throw this one in there to show the color changes during the summer. All my horses are on fresh ground flax (I grind my own) year round. Not sure if the lack of Omega's makes much difference in the fade. We do have very hot very sunny summers though.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Vidaloco said:


> I always assumed (obviously wrong) that what caused Vida's dapple was the silver gene. I also, again obviously wrongly, assumed that in order for a RMH to have the chocolate flaxen coloration was for one parent to have the silver gene. I was told by the breeder that Vida had the silver gene. Of course that was 10 years ago.
> 
> 
> Vida is obviously the black one. Saro, her daughter is the chocolate flaxen.. They are all summer faded in this photo.


Vida appears to be black. Saro appears to be silver black. What color was Saro's sire? Silver is a dominant gene, and it only takes one copy to be expressed. The only way it can 'skip a generation' is if it is hidden on a red based horse (since silver doesn't show on red based horses they can carry it and not show it). Black based horses will show it if they carry it.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The daughter looks like a silver black to me. That is far more the "normal" expression in RMHs. However, she has to have gotten the silver from her sire, because I cannot see any sign of it in her dam. Like I said, RMHs tend to have quite good expression of silver, especially when compared to other breeds. In fact, out of all the horse breeds (so not pony breeds) only RMHs and Gypsies ever have that much expression as a normal standard.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Both younger horses (the two in the middle) have the same father. He looked like Shiloh whose mother is the chestnut.


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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

So the sire was a chestnut? I'm sorry, I am not sure which horse is Shiloh.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I should have said Shiloh is the one on the far left. The chestnut in the photo is her mother. Shiloh is the same color as her sire. So in the photo are 2 mother (the black and the chestnut) and their daughters who are half sisters. 
Sorry to the op, this is getting way off topic. Didn't mean to highjack your thread.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I use the terms "non-fading black" and "fading black," since both are genetically black (at least for what we know so far) and therefore "true black" IMO. I believe there is some as-yet unidentified genetic difference (as I have seen non-fading blacks who did not receive great nutrition) but that nutrition will affect just how much a fading black fades.

As mentioned, smoky black is a black horse with the cream gene. While the cream gene doesn't express on a black coat, it does seem to make them more prone to fading. There's no foolproof way of identifying a smoky black horse from a fading black horse without genetic testing (or by producing a dilute offspring with another non-dilute horse)


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Having had a smoky black I'd say it does express in the degree and evenness of fade. It isn't obvious at all when the winter coat comes in or off but give it a few days and the fade begins. Mine and the ones I've seen once fade starts can look like buckskins. Here is a pic of mine (tested EE Cr) This isn't the height of fade it is just begining - notice how even. His ear fluff is cream year round.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Some smoky blacks don't fade at all, so that is not a reliable way to tell. There are two ways to be 100% certain of a horse being smoky black - testing, or one parent is a double cream dilute (cremello, perlino, smoky cream).


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Some smoky blacks don't fade at all, so that is not a reliable way to tell. There are two ways to be 100% certain of a horse being smoky black - testing, or one parent is a double cream dilute (cremello, perlino, smoky cream).


I have NO idea who Clem's sire and dam were. I don't even know which one was the Percheron, and which was the quarter horse! I'll just be happy with 'black of some sort,' haha.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

QtrBel said:


> Having had a smoky black I'd say it does express in the degree and evenness of fade. It isn't obvious at all when the winter coat comes in or off but give it a few days and the fade begins. Mine and the ones I've seen once fade starts can look like buckskins. Here is a pic of mine (tested EE Cr) This isn't the height of fade it is just begining - notice how even. His ear fluff is cream year round.


We had a fading black that faded like that, but my I haven't seen anywhere near that fading in my smoky black. He does have lighter eyes that look almost amber and punk-rocker bleached out tips and something "off" about his black color, but no where near the fading your horse shows there. He was tested Ee Cr.

Here he was last August:










And one attached from a few weeks ago showing his punk rocker tips.


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## MelissaAnn (Aug 26, 2011)

Vidaloco said:


> I don't know much about genetics. I do know that Vida is a black with a silver gene. She will fade in the summer but it's more of a dappling than a fading. Her mane and tail are always black and she has no other markings anywhere.
> A good site with fairly easy to understand genetic stuff- Starting Point


 
I don't think the dapples are a marker of what genetic color she is. But it is a sign she has a very healthy coat and diet!


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## JetdecksComet (Jun 11, 2013)

Vidaloco said:


> I thought I'd throw this one in there to show the color changes during the summer. All my horses are on fresh ground flax (I grind my own) year round. Not sure if the lack of Omega's makes much difference in the fade. We do have very hot very sunny summers though.


OMG the dapples! *dies* She's gorgeous!


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## CAVaqueroHorses (Jul 25, 2013)

For those that own black horses, what has been a common theme? I have noticed that people who breed for dun colored horses often confuse black offspring for a grulla or even an obvious bay for a zebra dun. These people claim that the horse has a "dorsal stripe" at certain angles which to them proves that the horse is a dark grulla (they forget that the dun gene lightens the coat). Sometimes the horse will have a buff colored inner ear which also proves to them that the horse is a grulla. However, to me, a dorsal stripe is a clearly defined line (so says color expert Dr. Sponenberg). Perhaps their black horse has a degree of counter shading? 

What are your opinions and experiences of owning a black horse? Have you noticed similar things with your black horses?


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