# Bay or brown mare?



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

She's a very lovely brown.

My best friend's Arab gelding is similarly colored at certain points during the year. Browns are also known for their color changing abilities (they'll rarely be the same color/shade two seasons in a row).
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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I vote seal brown as well


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

I dont get the whole brown vs bay... Bc all the bays I know would actually be browns... And that would make bay rare? I dont get it.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

I wouldn't say bay is rare I see regular bays all the time. I have a bay though he has pangre.
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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Wheatermay said:


> I dont get the whole brown vs bay... Bc all the bays I know would actually be browns... And that would make bay rare? I dont get it.


If you are confused, you can always test for it. It's not like we have just made it up to mess with people's heads, brown is a separate mutation to bay. They are genetically different. That is what the "brown vs bay" thing is.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Wheatermay said:


> I dont get the whole brown vs bay... Bc all the bays I know would actually be browns... And that would make bay rare? I dont get it.


The majority of the horses that are called "dark bay" are, in fact, brown. What makes a horse visually brown instead of bay is the lighter soft points (i.e.-places the sun wouldn't normally reach to cause fading, like the armpit, underside of the flank, and point of the buttock). True bays tend to be the lighter, more red bays (also called bright or blood bays).

Example: This picture is of Dakota, my old gelding, and Aristotle, a Holsteiner gelding that belonged to someone I know. Dakota is the shorter, true bay on the left. Notice how his coat is one, uniform color? Aristotle is the giant on the right. Most people would call him a dark bay, but he is actually brown. See the lighter areas under his elbow and flank?








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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Bays have a uniform color to them.










Browns the lightened soft points with the brownish/orangey hue.









And bays with pangre/mealy have the lightened soft points too. But the soft points have a light creamy color to them instead. Like Jet for instance, my family calls him a mule because of his primitive pangre markings lol. Well in their defense I haven't a many stock breed horses with pangre either but I think he's adorable 








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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

I understand your pain Wheatermay. For the longest time, I just thought my horse was a dark bay  until someone on here corrected me that she is brown and I now see the error in my ways. Looking back, I can't see how I missed she was a brown, but I definitely see it now.

Like what was said above, the easiest way to spot a brown is the "cinnamon" coloured points on their muzzle, flanks, etc. The other giveaway is the sometimes drastic difference between Winter and Summer. Many browns look just like a Bay in summer and the lighter orangey points sort of blend into the rest of them, but then becomes more obvious in Winter when darker hair comes in. I've posted examples of my mare below, although I think at this point, you probably catch the drift. 

Lilly a few summers ago - she has darkened significantly since then, but you can see how her lighter points kind of blend in with the rest of her and how I mistook her for Bay for the longest time. Her coat colour varies from year to year but has remained darker for the last few.









This is not a good picture because she was super fat this summer, but you can really see her lighter points on her inner legs, flanks and face. 










Wintertime - lighter points really stand out. You won't see those softer points in Wintertime on a Bay like you do with a Brown.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

So...browns can have a black mane and tail and legs?


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Yes - and I believe most do. Someone who is a little better versed in colour genetics can expand on this, but from what I understand, Bay and Brown are very similar genetically save for a slight variation that gives the Brown horse the softer points. I'm not very good at explaining, but I think that's the basic gist. Someone can correct me if I have misspoken.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Correct- there are three known agouti mutations. Classic bay, wild bay, and seal bay (aka seal brown, brown, dark bay, black bay, etc). All of these affect black based horses by restricting black on the coat. All of these will have black manes and tails and black (to a varying degree) on the legs, unless some other gene is at play (pinto patterns, silver gene, etc.)

Wild bay restricts black the most- the mane and tail are black, but the black on the legs stops very low, just around the fetlock. The rest of the body is a uniform reddish color (the exact shade can vary from horse to horse, but will be fairly consistent from season to season on the same horse) Wild bay is uncommon and is thought to be recessive to classic and seal bay. Classic bay is very similar in characteristics to wild bay (body is a uniform color without a lot of seasonal variation), but with the black going up higher on the legs, generally over the knees/hocks.

Seal bay restricts black the least. It's trademark features are a high degree of seasonal variation and the lighter "soft points," especially on the winter coat. Seal bay horses are often so light in the summer that the appear to be classic bay, but darken in the winter. Some are nearly black (except for those tell-tale soft points!) year round.


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## Reiner8 (Sep 1, 2012)

I would say dark bay


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Reiner8 said:


> I would say dark bay


Any particular reason?


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Reiner8 said:


> I would say dark bay


How did you get that after I gave the photo examples of the difference btw bay, brown, and pangre.
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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

I was in the same boat with you guys. The brown, black, bay thing drove me nuts! My horse was adviertised as a black and white when I bought her. Vet said she was a tri-colored tobiano. I thought she was a bay. Now I would say seal bay. Her muzzle, flank, behind her rear and tummy get lighter brown in winter. In summer she almost looks black. Her mane, tail and spots on her legs are black.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Definitely seal brown without a doubt. And I hate the term tri colored paint unless its one of those neat chimera paints its not tri colored its just a bay horse with white patterns.
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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Oldhorselady...Your horse is beautiful!!!!!!There is another color thread "Your horse is not a tri-color. It's a bay Paint" with a lot of discussion. Your vet's comment calling it a tri-color made me mention this. A lot of flap about terminology.

We have a Bay Paint in the barn and two Bay mares. At least the registeries call them bay. Until this thread I had no idea a horse with black mane, tail and points could be brown. This is all very interesting but since I don't breed and my braincells really don't want to spend a lot of time absorbing genetic information I will happily stick to the color info I have operating with for lo these many years. However, I will be looking at bays a little closer from here on out and thinking "Well, maybe...and maybe not." : )


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Ok I think I understand now.... Let me see if I can get this right.... I know they tend to be lighter around the their points... My gelding I always thought was a bay. I figured out his half brother was a brown, but of course he was typical brown! I posted my gelding before to figure him out, and I was told he was most likely a light brown. I'd like to see a true bay with a winter coat. Anyone got one of those? I get that the brown has alot of coat changes through the seasons. But I havent seen a single bay that I know have a winter coat without the lighter muzzle. So all the bays I know are actually browns... I dont think I know any bays, lol...

So this my my gelding's face in summer and winter... See why I get confused.... lol.... A picture of a true bay in winter coat would be awesome though.... I know that people arent screwing with me, lol... I just dont understand bc I'm a visual person I think. I NEED a picture, lol...


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Definitely seal brown without a doubt. And I hate the term tri colored paint unless its one of those neat chimera paints its not tri colored its just a bay horse with white patterns.
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Yes, but I honestly didnt know what a true tri color paint was. Just like most people. I NOW know my mare is a bay paint. It had to be explained to me! LOL But ALOT of people are very attacked to the tri-color "idea" for some reason and dont want to listen to it.


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## tiffrmcoy (Apr 13, 2012)

I am so confused about the true bay thing because I also have a bay who I thought was a true bay really isn't because she has light points during the winter? I'm confused.










Although I'm confused about that. My mind has also been blown because the filly who I thought was a bay, who is registered as a bay (I didn't register her) is really brown. I see where I (and everyone else) went wrong in mistaking her for a bay.










So I thought I had 2 bays but in reality I have a bay and a brown? Or 2 browns?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

The lighter mare appears to have pangere. See how white/cream the soft points are, compared to the orangy-tan of a brown?
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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

tiffr...the registry may call a "brownish" and all shades from light to dark (not buckskin) with black points a bay.
This thread is my introduction to this whole bay/not-bay thing and I have had horses most of my life. I've decided to not let it rattle my braincells. I'm going to call my two bays bays.
Ooops! Forgot to include the bay tobiano Paint...three bays

Nice horses, by the way.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Tiff - 1st horse is bay with pangare and the second is a brown.


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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

Ha, I was right then! Yessssss, I'm learning! Chil, Nd, and peppy... see how your efforts in explaining all that genetic info to me before hasn't gone without use?! It peaked my interest so now I've been examining different horses to see if I can figure out the color and what, if any, dilution genes and masking genes are involved. You should have seen the barn owner's face when I was explaining to him how he ended up with a palomino foal (he's a 2 year old now) out of the same smoky black tobiano stallion my mare is bred to and a black mare. I don't think I'll bring up the fact that his "blood bay" who is supposed to have a buckskin foal is in fact a brown. I don't want to seem cocky or like a know it all. However, if it happens to come up, I might mention that she is actually a brown and what makes her so.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

So is my gelding a bay or brown? He looks exactly like Tiff's light one. I waws being told he was a light brown. His muzzle does the same thing and the said that the lighter spots under his belly and thighs where NOT pangre....


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## horsecrazygirl (Apr 23, 2012)

So if a horse has like a light brown color like Glynnis horse does on their legs that would be a brown? I have to get pics of gypsy.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Wheatermay post a full side view pic that shows his light areas. Lets look at him.
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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

horsecrazygirl said:


> So if a horse has like a light brown color like Glynnis horse does on their legs that would be a brown? I have to get pics of gypsy.


Without having pictures, it's tough to say, but those lighter soft points are usually the most obvious indicator that differentiates a Bay and Brown horse. These lighter points are usually located on the flanks, inner legs (both front & back), underside of the belly and muzzle. My mare also gets light brown eye shadow. It's easier to tell in Winter because you can rule out sun fading as a factor. In Lilly's case, her lighter points become a lot more obvious in Winter vs. Summer. If Gypsy's coat is similar, I would venture to say she is a brown. Also keep in mind that my mare is at the darker end of the Brown spectrum. Many Browns are a little lighter, but consistently have those softer points. A good thread to visit if you want to see the different variations is the Badass Brown thread.

Lilly in Summer








Winter - please excuse that these are absolutely wretched pictures, they just show her brown points really well.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

These are all I have that shows anything. I have better summer pics but I forgot how to resize them, so they are small enough to upload.....


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

But he does have light tan around his eyes in the winter. So light brown? My avatar pic is his eyes in the summer.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

See that looks like pangre to me wheatermay not brown.


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Wheatermay said:


> But he does have light tan around his eyes in the winter. So light brown? My avatar pic is his eyes in the summer.


Can't tell real well in those pics but does it look like this?


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Okay! I couldn't stand it anymore. This evening while our three "bays' were eating, I'm moving around each giving them the old eyeballs in an attempt to see if I could tell what color they really are. And they are glancing at me with a "What IS her problem" look back.
I believe the mares are bay...probably. One is mahogany and the other (see avatar) has far less red and is a couple of shades lighter. Both muzzles are lighter with the winter coats but no light body tones behind the front legs or in the flank. 
The tobiano Paint gelding (thank goodness half his head is dark or I would be sunk) has a lighter muzzle and a lot of light around the eye. What body color he has is more of a walnut tone. So, may I be correct in thinking he may be brown? He has black in this mane and tail making him three colors with the dreamiest blue eyes.
I find it so interesting what one actually sees when looking for something specifically. Education is a wonderful thing.
I will take photos later this spring when we have summer coats.
I'm still going to call them all bays, just because it's easier!


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## Peppy Barrel Racing (Aug 16, 2011)

Actually take some winter coat pics it makes it easier for us to tell them apart. So lets gets some pics and look at them 
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## horsecrazygirl (Apr 23, 2012)

I should be going to there tomorrow so i will get pictures!


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Ok I posted nothing but winter coat pics of him this time. What so u think now? Chiilea (who is a very recognizable and very good at colors said she leaned towards light brown)... Since it seems farther along in understanding... I am really sorry for hijacking the thread a little OP. I'm think you are trying to learn though, and so am I! If I'm bugging you, give me a word, and I'll just make another thread.


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Also how do you tell difference between brown and pangre when they are really light? I dont really thin the has pangre.... but I DO think he is a brown... but can browns be red?

Being brown would explain his color change from that all over red to a more coppery red in the summer. He has a gold look to him too. His neck stays close to the winter color with tons of countershading on his shoulders. He looses the snip on his nose on the winter and he sheds all the light hair off his muzzle, and loosed the tan "eyeshadow" and even gets darker points on his face near his cheeks.... 

THAT much of color changing would point more to brown right? Am I getting it yet? And how can you tell if they are browns in summer? I dont get how you guys did it with Fanta and Hugo,, lol....


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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

Peppy Barrel Racing said:


> Can't tell real well in those pics but does it look like this?


Yes, he is the same color as your horse, lol... but the eyeshadow and muzzle is more like a brown I think. It isnt really a cream... Maybe in between both....


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## cakemom (Jul 4, 2010)

You guys have to stop, I'm now scouring every horse I see for different signs of what they are, I'm so confused!! 
They're all beautiful- almost as beautiful as I am confused.
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## Wheatermay (Aug 22, 2011)

cakemom said:


> You guys have to stop, I'm now scouring every horse I see for different signs of what they are, I'm so confused!!
> They're all beautiful- almost as beautiful as I am confused.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OMG I KNOW! I just read one site that said a brown will have little to NO RED! (So I thought, my gelding is VERY red, so he's a bay!). I continue looking at sites and came across another that shows a dark brown saying to note THE RED AREAS?!?! (DIDNT THE LAST SITE JUST SAY THEY HAD LITTLE TO NO RED?). Pangre mealy creamy colors under flanks, eyes, muzzle, etc... (my boy had that too... but not really as light as I would think as pangre. It's noticeable, but not really cream).... I THINK he is a copper bay with heavy countershading.... I think, lol.... I mean he is REALLY RED in the winter and in the summer when it bleaches he turns a copper color (golden red). 

They were talking that browns TURN copper bay after the sun bleaches them out in the summer, but my horses BROTHER (by another mother, lol... really is his half brother, tho...) IS a seal brown and he never looks copper.


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