# Judge my horses' conformation!



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Your horses are cute but you can't give any meaningful critique based on these pics. You need pics from all 4 directions, with the horse standing square, not moving or parked out.


----------



## Karine (Jul 5, 2018)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Your horses are cute but you can't give any meaningful critique based on these pics. You need pics from all 4 directions, with the horse standing square, not moving or parked out.


I have attached some more photos- does this help? Unfortunately I do not have many photos where they are standing still!


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Conformation evaluation photography is very specific. It does not seem to be common knowledge. Maybe there should be a sticky. 

HOW TO TAKE CONFORMATION PHOTOS

1. Your horse must be standing square and even with his legs plumb as possible, on level ground bare enough that hoofs are visible, groomed, and without tack. 
2. Photo of front, rear and side
3. In each pose, the horse must be dead square to the camera

If these requirements are not met, you do not have conformation photos and your horse cannot be fairly judged. Period. 

Examples of acceptable conformation photos:


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Beautiful horses. No critique without appropriate photos though.


----------



## Karine (Jul 5, 2018)

Ok sorry! Didn't realise! Will try and get some proper photos 🙂


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi & welcome to the forum! 

Ditto to others. Nice looking horses but will await appropriate pics for more than... 

Gather the dun is the 3yo. She looks rump high, but that's normal as she's immature, they tend to grow in fits & starts, like teenage kids. 

And her feet desperately need attending. If you wanted to check out the links in my signature & post hoof pics in the hoofcare section, we could give you more specific feedback on them too. 

Please also learn about equine development & consider how much you do with your 3yo. IMHO they should be ridden little if at all at that age.


----------



## Karine (Jul 5, 2018)

loosie said:


> Hi & welcome to the forum!
> 
> Ditto to others. Nice looking horses but will await appropriate pics for more than...
> 
> ...


Hi, thanks for your comment. Her feet were donw after these pictures were taken (couple days after I bought her) 🙂 At the moment I am riding her as follows: 1x week 20mins dressage, 2x week trail riding 45 mins (99% walking). Some weeks she does nothing. Do you consider this OK?? Or should I cut back on the riding?


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I would personally cut back on riding. By all means still work with her & take her out & about & exercise her(& her mind - she has a lot to learn & experience at that age) but as said I'd do little if any weight bearing on her for another year or 2, and also avoid 'high impact' stuff like jumping & fast circles(lunging).


----------



## Karine (Jul 5, 2018)

loosie said:


> I would personally cut back on riding. By all means still work with her & take her out & about & exercise her(& her mind - she has a lot to learn & experience at that age) but as said I'd do little if any weight bearing on her for another year or 2, and also avoid 'high impact' stuff like jumping & fast circles(lunging).


I hate jumping and do not lunge her at all. I weigh 110 pounds. Would something like this sound better then: 1x week walk the trails with her (not sitting on her but walking her), 1x week 45 min trail ride (only walking) and 1x week 20 min dressage lesson (the basics-little bit of trot and canter). Would this be OK? In addition to this I would still do liberty work/trick training (but not involving riding)


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Karine said:


> I hate jumping and do not lunge her at all. I weigh 110 pounds. Would something like this sound better then: 1x week walk the trails with her (not sitting on her but walking her), 1x week 45 min trail ride (only walking) and 1x week 20 min dressage lesson (the basics-little bit of trot and canter). Would this be OK? In addition to this I would still do liberty work/trick training (but not involving riding)


This sounds fine to me. 

The main issue with riding too early is that the spinal processes are some of the very last to finish maturing (growth plates closing). Here is a good chart showing times of bone maturation in the horse

You can see from the chart why many people feel that any strenuous weight bearing should be put off until at least four years of age.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I'll be a dissenter here. A 110 lb person riding a 3 year old at a walk isn't going to do damage. The legs should all be grown now, and there is no need to wait until all growth plates are fused - which happens around 16 years old in humans, and lots of humans do fine in sports before then.

I wouldn't ask a 3 year old horse to max perform in sports any more than I'd expect a human teen to compete in the NFL. But a 110 lb rider, walking? That barely qualifies as exercise for the horse, let alone stress. 

In the western world of riding, grown men would be riding the 3 year old. I might find it distasteful, but I've seen no evidence that it causes problems for the horse. And it is common enough in the western riding world that there surely would be evidence by now if it was actually causing harm. If anyone has any data showing that light riding of 3 year old horses causes harm, I'd love to see it.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Karine said:


> Hi, thanks for your comment. Her feet were donw after these pictures were taken (couple days after I bought her) 🙂 At the moment I am riding her as follows: 1x week 20mins dressage, 2x week trail riding 45 mins (99% walking). Some weeks she does nothing. Do you consider this OK?? Or should I cut back on the riding?


That sounds like a pretty good schedule to me. She's getting enough to keep fit and to show her stuff in and out of the ring, so learning to deal with new things. I wouldn't do a whole lot more with her and I'd probably turn her out during the winter to just be a horse and bring her back in next spring and go forward from there.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is from humans, but it might be relevant:

"We measured areal BMD (g/cm2) by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry in 45 active prepubertal female gymnasts aged 10.4 ± 0.3 years (mean ± SEM), 36 retired female gymnasts aged 25.0 ± 0.9 years, and 50 controls....During 12 months, the increase in areal BMD (g/cm2/year) of the total body, spine, and legs in the active prepubertal gymnasts was 30–85% greater than in prepubertal controls (all p < 0.05). In the retired gymnasts, the areal BMD was 0.5–1.5 SD higher than the predicted mean in controls at all sites, except the skull (p ranging between <0.06 and <0.0001). There was no diminution across the 20 years since retirement (mean 8 ± 1 years), despite the lower frequency and intensity of exercise. *The prepubertal years are likely to be an opportune time for exercise to increase bone density. As residual benefits are maintained into adulthood, exercise before puberty may reduce fracture risk after menopause.*" 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1359/jbmr.1998.13.3.500

I don't know of good studies done with horses. Two year old Thoroughbreds have been studied. What I've seen indicates stronger bones from exercise, but with horses, there is not evidence this cannot be done adequately by playing in open fields - IF the horse has access to playing in open fields. That would be uncommon in Arizona.

There are a number of studies in humans indicating strength training and even high impact aerobics can strengthen the bones BETTER than training done as an adult. Note the gymnast study looked at 10 year old females, which is well before growth plates fuse. Instead of damage, they were seeing life-long improvement.


----------



## 272159 (Jun 15, 2018)

It's a little hard to tell but from what I see most of your horses have a good conformation.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Karine said:


> I hate jumping and do not lunge her at all. I weigh 110 pounds. Would something like this sound better then: 1x week walk the trails with her (not sitting on her but walking her), 1x week 45 min trail ride (only walking) and 1x week 20 min dressage lesson (the basics-little bit of trot and canter). Would this be OK? In addition to this I would still do liberty work/trick training (but not involving riding)


As said, I'd do *very little if any riding*. Perhaps a couple of 30 min trails with a few minute's trotting here & there, IF you're a well balanced, not bouncy rider. You need to do your own study, to learn about equine development and WHY you may or may not do stuff. Just asking me, a total stranger that you have no clue about, 'is it OK?' is not enough to make an objective decision. What about when someone comes along with an alternate opinion? If you don't learn for yourself, which one of us are you going to take on blind faith?


----------



## Karine (Jul 5, 2018)

loosie said:


> Karine said:
> 
> 
> > I hate jumping and do not lunge her at all. I weigh 110 pounds. Would something like this sound better then: 1x week walk the trails with her (not sitting on her but walking her), 1x week 45 min trail ride (only walking) and 1x week 20 min dressage lesson (the basics-little bit of trot and canter). Would this be OK? In addition to this I would still do liberty work/trick training (but not involving riding)
> ...


Many thanms for your comments, always appreciated (even if perhaps a little bit aggressive 😉 Of course I do my own research and of course the final decision is not made based on one persons' comments!! What I wanted to know is simply what different people consider appropriate in terms of training 🙂 Perhaps I did not phrase my comments correctly. In any case, once again- thanks for your input.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Loosie is just restating what others of us have said. You came back with adding cantering and increasing the length of time even though you decreased the number of days. Those of us that have started late 3 year olds (or some that start earlier) don't do long stretches of time. For me 15 minutes of ride time more frequently would be better than one longer ride and no cantering. Walking quietly is the goal for the youngsters. We each have our own opinions. If your horse has pasture time and someone to play with she gets plenty of exercise. If she is stalled then the more time you spend with her out of her stall moving (and not on her back) the better for her. You're light and it is not necessarily stress on her legs (depends on what you are doing - as loosie said jumping should come later) but her back. Horses are built differently than humans and we're adding weight at a point where trouble can readily develop.


----------



## Karine (Jul 5, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> Loosie is just restating what others of us have said. You came back with adding cantering and increasing the length of time even though you decreased the number of days. Those of us that have started late 3 year olds (or some that start earlier) don't do long stretches of time. For me 15 minutes of ride time more frequently would be better than one longer ride and no cantering. Walking quietly is the goal for the youngsters. We each have our own opinions. If your horse has pasture time and someone to play with she gets plenty of exercise. If she is stalled then the more time you spend with her out of her stall moving (and not on her back) the better for her. You're light and it is not necessarily stress on her legs (depends on what you are doing - as loosie said jumping should come later) but her back. Horses are built differently than humans and we're adding weight at a point where trouble can readily develop.


Ok thanks. Indeed, they are out 24/7 in a small herd 🙂


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> ...Horses are built differently than humans and we're adding weight at a point where trouble can readily develop.


Are we? Realistically? I understand a 250 lb rider on a small horse causing issues, or riding an undernourished horse with weak back muscles, or a rider of ANY weight with bad saddle fit. But a 110 lb rider on the flat in a good saddle?

Given how many 3 year old horses are successfully ridden at higher weights, is there any evidence showing harm, on a healthy horse of suitable size with a saddle that fits? I'm not suggesting strenuous, competitive riding. Just modest weight training. In humans, the stuff I'm seeing indicates moderate weight training before puberty HELPS, possibly for life.

Seems this is like asking if a 100 lb 13 year old can safely carry a 10 lb backpack...


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

A horse is built like a bridge. 4 supports and the suspension (muscles, tendons) to hold up the road (spinal column). There are so many things to take into consideration. Would you drive across a bridge if you knew that the underpinings were not correctly installed or all the nuts and bolts were left loose? Sure there are those that put incredible amounts of weight on Young stock and at that point in time seemingly get away with it. The QH trainers that I know utilize a UTV and lead the horse through W/T/C over varying terrain to build them up. They do back them to ensure they have the cues down but the time they spend on them is minimal. Most of the work is done from the ground. They are increasing saddle time slowly over that 3rd year. Those that are showing their 3 year olds are doing very little in the saddle. They will get on to make sure the buttons are working and keep enough saddle time to keep them grounded but reserve most of the riding for the arena. This is my experience with those I know here in my area. I've seen and ridden their 25 year olds that are still going strong. I have also seen many in the area replacing those that were rode hard by heavier riders training them. They are "retired" as kids horses and wind up as pasture puffs when the kids parents don't want to bear the cost of joint maintenance now necessary or sold on. I'm not talking about 25 or even 20 y.o. but 10, 12, 15 year olds. Can some horses handle it? I'm sure there are a few. Are the majority of us here capable of weeding out those few genetically, muscularly, skeletally and mentally capable of withstanding that early abuse? No. IMO better safe than sorry.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

ETA BSMS after your post she is now changing her walking to W/T/C and talking about increasing the time she spends in the saddle on the trail though decreasing the frequency. There is also the dressage time that is undersaddle. That is a concern as we don't know just what that covers for her. Then there is also another telling her she needs plenty of wet saddle blankets. There is more than one thread by the OP covering the same ground. I don't entirely disagree with you but I feel it isn't something I can say say with a blanket approval is ok for most. We don't know the OP or what her experiences or capabilities are.


----------



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Those that start those horses and show them their very young years then sell them on. They dont continue competeing on them they move on to other youngsters.


----------



## Karine (Jul 5, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> ETA BSMS after your post she is now changing her walking to W/T/C and talking about increasing the time she spends in the saddle on the trail though decreasing the frequency. There is also the dressage time that is undersaddle. That is a concern as we don't know just what that covers for her. Then there is also another telling her she needs plenty of wet saddle blankets. There is more than one thread by the OP covering the same ground. I don't entirely disagree with you but I feel it isn't something I can say say with a blanket approval is ok for most. We don't know the OP or what her experiences or capabilities are.


Hi, just to clarify: I consider myself an experienced rider but do not have much experience with very young horses. In terms of what I am doing at the moment with the marw is riding her 2x week on the trail for +/- 45 mins (99 percent walking, maybe a tinnnyy bir of trotting ocassionally). And 1x week 20 mins dressage (this involves mostly walking/stopping/very large circles/a bit of trotting (5 mins max) and a couole of very short canters. Just to clarify! But for example this week all I did was a 30 min walking trail. So the schedule is not rigid


----------



## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

Honestly, how often or hard you want to work your horse is up to you. I don't believe in working horses too hard until they have developed, but with that said I was riding my 3 year old. She is now 4 and I have started taking her on trails - these rides are not hard as they are 99% walking, however they can be long. She is also in dressage lessons, which are an hour long. But this is mostly walking and a bit of trotting with some trot poles. 

Right now you are likely trying to get the basics on your filly - when my girl was 3, our sessions were short and positive. I mixed it up with a bit of ground work, a little bit of lunging (more to work on cues, then to just run her in circles) as well as ground driving and a bit of under saddle stuff. Plus I'd hand walk her a lot to get her off the property. 

I'm sure what you are doing is fine - I'd keep the catering/galloping to a minimum though.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> A horse is built like a bridge. 4 supports and the suspension (muscles, tendons) to hold up the road (spinal column)...


Not really. The front legs aren't even attached to the spine, and the spine has nothing to do with structural integrity. A more apt analogy would be you have a pipe (the spine) with a fiber-optic cable (the spinal chord) embedded in a road (the muscle).

The spine of a badly nourished horse is as big as the spine of a well nourished horse, yet no one would think of jumping on the back of a starving horse. That is because we instinctively know that the integrity of the spine depends on the ability of the MUSCLES to support out weight.

Consider my horse Bandit. Yes, he wasn't ridden until 4. But the spine hasn't matured at four! And he was then ridden, for speed, for up to 15 mile training runs carrying 35% or more of his own weight. I worry about what that did to his LEGS. I see no reason for worry about his BACK.

I think there is reasonable evidence that modest exercise - stress - strengthens bones when done before maturity.

"_While we believe that the primary reason we did not observe significant differences between exercisers and controls was a result of the active control group, it is also plausible that following puberty, the skeleton is not as responsive to exercise training as it is before puberty. 

Results from several investigators support this theory since they have demonstrated that adults who began high load activity before or around puberty (6–14 yr) have higher bone mass than adults who were not active before puberty or began exercise after puberty (19,20). Further, the recent report by Morris et al. (25) who showed significantly higher bone mass in prepubertal girls who participated in 10 months of moderate to high load activity compared with controls corroborates this theory._"

Effects of plyometric jump training on bone mass in adolescent girls, Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, Official Journal of the American College of Sports Medicine

I think regular flat riding by someone who is 110 lbs on a 3 year old, solid looking horse is more likely to help than harm. I cannot prove it and I doubt any definitive studies will ever be done in horses. However, I increasingly see people arguing that horses should NEVER be ridden at above 15% or even 10% of their body weight. Shows in England will disqualify someone riding at above 20% - as I do every time I mount up! I'm worried that the end game will be people saying we can't ride horses at all.

If your horse needs to brace his back to support you, get off. Right away. Wait until he is bigger or in better shape. If you ride for 30 minutes and he starts tensing up, get off. If he isn't willing to OFFER a good trot, maybe you are too much weight on him - or he is getting tired. Give him a break. I really think it is as simple as that.

PS: I understand your point, though, QtrBel. I'd love to see studies that look at useful things - like when can one start riding a horse, and how hard - instead of studying things like rollkur. The stuff I think most people could really benefit from never seems to get studied. At least I cannot find any. :evil:


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> Seems this is like asking if a 100 lb 13 year old can safely carry a 10 lb backpack...


I guess it is rather. And if you're going to be pedantic, you need to answer some specifics, to work that out. I gather you mean while they're on all fours. For how long? At what speed? Is the backpack bouncing around...??


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ Frankly, a 10 lb backpack bouncing on the back of a 100 lb 13 year old on all fours isn't likely to do much damage, particularly if it had a good fitting saddle between it and the kid. 

I spent some time - wasted it, I guess - trying to find info on race horses carrying jockeys at 2 - and any associated back issues. Couldn't find anything. Which, in a way, IS a finding. Because if it was causing a lot of problems, wouldn't there be something somewhere about it? Leg issues, yes. But no signs light riders riding 2 year old horses harmed the horses' backs. And some evidence exists that it might HELP the horses' adult bone strength.

Deb Bennett published an article discussing growth plates fusing and assumed it was critical information. She offered no evidence then or since that it is relevant to horse longevity or health. That is what I'm after. Some reason to believe when growth plates fuse is related to horse health or longevity. And that is what, to date, no one has shown me.

I'm worried that too many people are using fake science to justify no riding at all.

"_A survey in the Journal of Veterinary Behaviour found that very few riders are aware that it is recommended that a rider weighs about 10% of the horses weight and that the rider should not exceed 15% of the horses weight._ "

Are you the right weight for your horse? ? Horse Clips

"T_o that end, an industry practitioner proposed a 10 per cent rider-to-horse ratio for optimum performance, up to 15 per cent as satisfactory and a level of 20 per cent to be a potential welfare issue. Just 5 per cent of the riders involved in the study met the optimum threshold. Thirty-two per cent of the riders weighed more than 15 per cent of the weight of their animal, which is considered to pose a potential welfare risk_."

https://www.horsetalk.co.nz/2013/04/01/the-great-weight-debate-how-heavy-is-too-heavy/
_
"The guidelines in Dr Randle’s research state that the “optimum” weight for a rider is less than 10 per cent the weight of their mount (US guidelines say 20 per cent). With the average stable horse weighing 500kg to 600kg (79 to 94 stone) this means a rider should weigh 60kg (9.4 stone). [Note: means I would need to weigh under 85 lbs to ride Bandit...]

But since horses have been lugging heavy loads for centuries – armour; carriages; caravans – you’d have thought they’d be used to it by now.

Not so, says Julian Marczak, chairman of the Association of British Riding Schools. “A horse’s back is precious,” he warns. “The combination of a heavy rider and an incorrect saddle fitting is enough to put a horse out of work, long-term. And, behaviourally, you can turn a very sweet-natured horse into a cranky horse overnight._” 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/active/9952758/The-horses-saddled-with-our-obesity-epidemic.html

"_RoR’s policy states that “as a general guide”, the weight of rider and saddle should be no more than 17% of the horse’s optimum bodyweight, “consistent with a body condition score of 3/5”. It adds that this means a 500kg thoroughbred can carry up to 13.5 stone._" [Note: I'd have to lose 35 lbs to meet their rule, more if they include saddle weight. Again, Bandit doesn't seem to mind - but then, he's carried up to 300 lbs at a run, so his ideas may be slanted!}

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/ror-disqualify-overweight-riders-shows-602442

--- I realize that is rider weight and not starting age. But like starting age, it ignores the fact that heavier riders DO ride happy and healthy horses all the time. And lots of horses started at 2 doesn't seem to show significant back problems, particularly if ridden with lighter riders. So what is right? The theory? Or reality? Deb Bennett's growth plate fusing likewise would have people wait until a horse is 7 to start it. Kind of ignores a few thousands years of experience, all for an unproven assertion.


----------



## Karine (Jul 5, 2018)

Hi All, having had alot of different opinions, there is something I am a bit stuck on: Is it better to ride a young horse (destined for trails and leisure) 20 mins 3x week in the arena (walk and a bit of trot and canter) or rather lets say 1x week a 45 min trail ride 99% walking? I guess the first option means the horse does not have weight on its back for very long but it is being ridden more frequently and the second options means the horse has longer breaks in between being ridden but is riddwn for longer periods of time (although mostly at a walk). But wouldn't this help build endurance better than riding 20 mins in the arena? Obviously I care about my horses and do not want to hurt them in any way but sometimes I would like to accompany my boyfriend on a short 45 min/1 hour trail ride (him riding the 8 year old gelding and me the 3 year old mare) and I assume in terms of training it would be better to go 1x or 2x a week on a short walking trail ride with her rather than 2/3x short riding cessions in the arena? I don't know 😞


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> ^^ Frankly, a 10 lb backpack bouncing on the back of a 100 lb 13 year old on all fours isn't likely to do much damage,


_Frankly,_ I do believe you are very wrong, DEPENDING on factors like how long it's happening. I am not interested in arguing with you. I know this is one of those subjects you are not open to. I'm not interested in trying to change your mind, you're welcome to your opinion. I just want to give OP my opinion for their consideration. Which is not just based on theories from the net & anecdotal theories about my own horses, but info from bodyworkers - eg. chiropractic vets & the likes, that work with horses & see the problems.



> I spent some time - wasted it, I guess - trying to find info on race horses carrying jockeys at 2 - and any associated back issues. Couldn't find anything. Which, in a way, IS a finding. Because if it was causing a lot of problems, wouldn't there be something somewhere


Have you never heard the saying 'money talks'?? There is a LOT about the racing industry that's... swept FAR under the carpet. I personally know someone who actually had death threats to her AND HER KIDS because of certain findings about a particular line of racehorses... 



> --- I realize that is rider weight and not starting age. But like starting age, it ignores the fact that heavier riders DO ride happy and healthy horses all the time.


If you're interested in changing _my_ mind, you will need to provide evidence for your assertions. Eg. show me rads done on (a large test study of)horses showing no injury, despite carrying of heavy weights. Show me evidence that the common injuries such as 'kissing spines' found in racehorses are not from them being started early... etc.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Karine said:


> Hi All, having had alot of different opinions, there is something I am a bit stuck on: Is it better to ride a young horse (destined for trails and leisure) 20 mins 3x week in the arena (walk and a bit of trot and canter) or rather lets say 1x week a 45 min trail ride 99% walking? I guess the first option means the horse does not have weight on its back for very long but it is being ridden more frequently and the second options means the horse has longer breaks in between being ridden but is riddwn for longer periods of time (although mostly at a walk). But wouldn't this help build endurance better than riding 20 mins in the arena? Obviously I care about my horses and do not want to hurt them in any way but sometimes I would like to accompany my boyfriend on a short 45 min/1 hour trail ride (him riding the 8 year old gelding and me the 3 year old mare) and I assume in terms of training it would be better to go 1x or 2x a week on a short walking trail ride with her rather than 2/3x short riding cessions in the arena? I don't know 😞


I don't think you need to make that choice. Any exercise is better than none, regular exercise is better than irregular. So, my vote would be more along the lines of MWF arena training for 30 mins or so, depending on her attention span and then an easy trail ride for approximately an hour or thereabout on the weekend. As long as she's acting happy, engaged and interested in what you're doing, I don't have a problem riding the 3 y.o. as long as you're not asking for upper level dressage moves, or galloping for an hour, extreme stuff. I prefer to put mine in regular, light work when they're young and then give them a month or 2 off during the worst of winter. I find it keeps them sound and gives them time to grow up and mature. Each spring they come back into work and each year we work in some new stuff until they're done or sold.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

loosie said:


> _..._I know this is one of those subjects you are not open to....
> 
> ...If you're interested in changing _my_ mind, you will need to provide evidence for your assertions. Eg. show me rads done on (a large test study of)horses showing no injury, despite carrying of heavy weights. Show me evidence that the common injuries such as 'kissing spines' found in racehorses are not from them being started early... etc.


First, I AM open to changing my mind. I just want evidence. None has ever been given. People just talk about growth plates fusing and make no attempt to show why it is relevant.

Second, no one will EVER have detailed, large scale studies done with horses. No one will EVER do large scale studies of hundreds of horses comparing those started at 3 with varying levels of weights and comparing X-rays with hundreds of horses started at 4, and started at 5 and started at 6. That is a standard of proof NO ONE will ever get.

That doesn't mean it is impossible to discuss rationally.

1 - *If there is significant damage, then "significant" suggests an observable change in behavior or longevity.* "_Julian Marczak, chairman of the Association of British Riding Schools. “A horse’s back is precious,” he warns...And, behaviourally, you can turn a very sweet-natured horse into a cranky horse overnight._” Julian isn't far wrong. The effects of an ill-fitting saddle are well known, not thru studies with X-rays, but thru horses being injured or behaving differently. 

Put the wrong saddle on my BLM mustang, and he'll buck and refuse to move forward. Heck, put a bit in his mouth in the wrong spot and he'll do the same. Not all horses are "stoic". many talk. Loudly. Bandit will do "Can you hear me now?" bucks.

The FACT that many horses are started at 2 and go on to have long, productive lives without behavioral issues related to their back IS EVIDENCE. The rancher whose horses start light riding at 3 and full time work at 4, carrying adult sheepherders for 12 hour days, often covering 20+ miles a day in the mountains - the FACT that his horses don't have back issues is a valid data point.

People can hypothesize about early riding / heavier riders causing back injuries, but many horses do it successfully. Any theory of damage needs to account for what happens all the time in the real world.

2 - *Human studies are not totally irrelevant*. We are still mammals. We obviously have structural differences, and nothing seen in humans is absolute proof. But when one cannot study the horse, and when it involves issues like bone density and age of work, then human studies provide insight. Particularly since some work HAS been done with horses, and it indicates race horses get stronger bones if they are worked as two year olds.

Theories need to be tested against reality. People are claiming evidence that horses cannot carry more than 10% of their weight, and that going over 15% is abusive. I've been unable to find any description of their "studies". But I know this: I spent 7 years riding an Arabian mare at 23-25% of her weight, and there wasn't a single ride where she acted tired of carrying me. 

I know my current horse is uncommonly slender, and I know he was used in relay races. His training involved guys "at least 265 lbs in his socks" riding him HARD for 10-15 miles. I know it was hard on him because he arrived here bracing his back like an I-beam. I also know he learned I didn't ride him that way and learned to trust me with his back. I know he often initiates trotting - big trots - near the end of a trail ride. It seems he doesn't know I'm causing him pain and abusing him!

There is ample evidence that riding a horse hard before the knees fuse causes problems. That has been accepted for hundreds of years - because people dealing with lots of horses - a cavalry commander might have 2,000+ he was responsible for - SAW BAD RESULTS from riding horses before their knees matured.

Where is similar evidence for needing the back's growth plates to fuse before riding - which happens at 6-7 years?

I'm "open". Just want evidence. Why should I ignore what horses do every day and believe Deb Bennett's theory?


Kissing spines & racehorses: 

“Kissing spines is a radiographic diagnosis,” he says, explaining that while the condition is fairly easy to document, the actual significance for each horse is much less clear. *In his original study, 4,407 horses were evaluated over seven years.*1 These horses were presented for lameness or poor performance, and back pain was identified in 310 (7 percent) during clinical examination. Seventy horses that had never shown any signs or history of back pain were also examined, and all horses in both groups had their backs radiographed. Of the horses with clinical back pain, 212 (68 percent) had a diagnosis of kissing spines on the basis of radiographs alone, *but 27 (39 percent) of the horses without back pain history had the same radiographic diagnosis...*

... “The presence of ‘kissing spines’ alone is not necessarily cause for concern but should be considered as a predisposing factor for back pain,” Turner concludes...

... *Turner’s research showed a statistically significant overrepresentation of primary back pain in young thoroughbreds (less than 5 years old) and in dressage horses.* Leo Jeffcott of the Equine Research Station of the Animal Health Trust in Newmarket, England, found that *the highest prevalence of cases of ORDSP in the 443 horses he studied occurred in competitive jumping horses (39 percent)*.3 

*Turner speculates that since the discipline of dressage requires that the horse progressively use its back and hind end to perform collection and lateral movements, it predisposes some horses to problems. *“During training and competition,” he says, “the horse may overuse its back resulting in inflammation and pain at the sites of spinous impingement.” 

Kissing spines in veterinary equine patients: Easy to diagnose, complicated to treat

It seems a significant percentage of horses are predisposed to have problems from kissing spines, but that the problem doesn't result in back pain unless the horse is expected to use its back in a very athletic manner - jumping or dressage...or racing. But PRIMARILY in jumping and dressage. Competitive dressage horses tend to be BIG, tend to be ridden by fit riders, and are rarely started at 2. So...ridden at a lower percentage of body weight (as are jumpers!). Started later (as are many jumpers). But more problems!

Food for thought. Instead of worrying about a solid 3 year old horse carrying a 110 lb rider on a trail, maybe the solution to kissing spines is to be very selective about what horses enter serious dressage or jumping training? *Maybe we should stop expecting horses to perform elite sports without X-rays of their backs first*?


For the OP: I don't get a lot of riding done during the winter, even though I live in Arizona. When I start riding again in the spring, we start with short rides. Mostly walking. Then increase the distance and start doing more hills and more trotting. If my horse acts reluctant, then we do less. He's a forward horse by nature. So if he acts pooped, I figure we've overdone it and need to back off until he's better prepared. When he feels ready for more, he'll OFFER to do more.


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bmsm, your second paragraph effectively contradicts your first. You're asking for evidence here, on a forum, that you say can't be had. It seems you are discounting the evidence & info you DO get, could get, if you go out *into the field* & learn from people who work with horses, rather than looking for evidence in studies you say can't be done.



> Put the wrong saddle on my BLM mustang, and he'll buck and refuse to move forward. Heck, put a bit in his mouth in the wrong spot and he'll do the same. Not all horses are "stoic". many talk. Loudly. Bandit will do "Can you hear me now?" bucks.


Yes, not all horses are 'stoic' - but you're confusing this with learned helplessness here & assuming also that because some horses are 'heard' & understood *when they 'talk' loudly enough* that means all horses will 'talk' loudly...



> The FACT that many horses are started at 2 and go on to have long, productive lives without behavioral issues related to their back IS EVIDENCE.


No, I believe it is NAIVITY - people who understand what they're seeing/experiencing in horse's bodies DESPITE lack of OBVIOUS TO MOST 'behavioural issues' have shown me evidence of this, that, without my being a bodywork expert myself, I can now see. Often 'little things' to us, such as a horse who's too stiff in the hind end to lift his hind leg high, or a horse who is 'lazy'...



> FACT that his horses don't have back issues is a valid data point.


You are assuming lack of 'behavioural issue' is evidence for this. If you're going to call it FACT, I'd want proof of this. 



> People can hypothesize about early riding / heavier riders causing back injuries, but many horses do it successfully. Any theory of damage needs to account for what happens all the time in the real world.


Suppose with this reasoning you don't believe in global warming either.



> 2 - *Human studies are not totally irrelevant*.


Funny, I recall saying this, using human studies to make a point in the past & you discounted that...



> Where is similar evidence for needing the back's growth plates to fuse before riding - which happens at 6-7 years?


When so much damage to horse's bodies is taken as 'normal' and horses are just expected to be arthritic by a certain age, etc. Heck, re hooves, the anatomy books show osteoporotic pedal bones as normal, side bone as normal. They show nuchal ligaments in the wrong spot, there are many 'conditions' which are not understood... 

Anyway, as said ad nauseum to you, I am not about to throw caution to the wind at the possibility of my horse's expense just for absence of 'proof'. Which is NOT to be confused with proof of absence.


----------



## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

Karine said:


> Hi All, having had alot of different opinions, there is something I am a bit stuck on: Is it better to ride a young horse (destined for trails and leisure) 20 mins 3x week in the arena (walk and a bit of trot and canter) or rather lets say 1x week a 45 min trail ride 99% walking? I guess the first option means the horse does not have weight on its back for very long but it is being ridden more frequently and the second options means the horse has longer breaks in between being ridden but is riddwn for longer periods of time (although mostly at a walk). But wouldn't this help build endurance better than riding 20 mins in the arena? Obviously I care about my horses and do not want to hurt them in any way but sometimes I would like to accompany my boyfriend on a short 45 min/1 hour trail ride (him riding the 8 year old gelding and me the 3 year old mare) and I assume in terms of training it would be better to go 1x or 2x a week on a short walking trail ride with her rather than 2/3x short riding cessions in the arena? I don't know 😞



Denny Emerson believes that one of the best things that you can do to condition any horse, is walking. Personally, if I were to have a do over on the horses I saddle broke, I would've taken them on walking trail rides more often than I did. An arena can only teach so much to young horses, when realistically, they likely need to re-experience things with a rider on their back. A lot of horses are totally fine with obstacles when their owner is on the ground, but sometimes that doesn't translate to saddle, and this is where the walking trail rides would help build up confidence. 

I am a believer that a horse can be ridden lightly at 3 years old, and an hour trail ride of walking is light, and very beneficial for strengthening their bodies. It could be a good idea to do a little bit of arena work before your trail rides, just to keep building on under saddle skills, but have those trail days focusing largely on walking. Otherwise, I like what you are doing with your horse. Please look past those that are choosing to argue on this forum, this can be a great place to learn a lot, but sometimes people get stuck on a disagreement! 

Please keep updating us!


----------



## Karine (Jul 5, 2018)

ClearDonkey said:


> Karine said:
> 
> 
> > Hi All, having had alot of different opinions, there is something I am a bit stuck on: Is it better to ride a young horse (destined for trails and leisure) 20 mins 3x week in the arena (walk and a bit of trot and canter) or rather lets say 1x week a 45 min trail ride 99% walking? I guess the first option means the horse does not have weight on its back for very long but it is being ridden more frequently and the second options means the horse has longer breaks in between being ridden but is riddwn for longer periods of time (although mostly at a walk). But wouldn't this help build endurance better than riding 20 mins in the arena? Obviously I care about my horses and do not want to hurt them in any way but sometimes I would like to accompany my boyfriend on a short 45 min/1 hour trail ride (him riding the 8 year old gelding and me the 3 year old mare) and I assume in terms of training it would be better to go 1x or 2x a week on a short walking trail ride with her rather than 2/3x short riding cessions in the arena? I don't know 😞
> ...


Thanks! 😊


----------

