# Tobiano, Overo or Both?



## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

Does anyone know what paint pattern this mare is? She belongs to my mom and it's been kinda bugging me. At first I thought she was a tobiano but her paint markings aren't as smooth are your typical tobiano, they are more rough and jagged.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I'd say tobiano, frame, and sabino (maybe on the sabino). 

Just as a point of clarification, "overo" is a very broad, generic term meaning basically anything that isn't tobiano. It emcompasses frame, splash, and sabino.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I'd say tobiano, frame, and sabino (maybe on the sabino).
> 
> Just as a point of clarification, "overo" is a very broad, generic term meaning basically anything that isn't tobiano. It emcompasses frame, splash, and sabino.


I know for sure she isn't overo, just maybe have a mix of overo with tobiano. I highly doubt it's sabino. I don't know lol!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

daystar88 said:


> I know for sure she isn't overo, just maybe have a mix of overo with tobiano. I highly doubt it's sabino. I don't know lol!


You didn't get what I said. Overo is a broad generic term meaning anything that isn't tobiano. It encompasses *frame*, _splash_ and sabino. She most definitely has something other than tobiano going on. I'd say it's likely *frame* with the way the white is on her neck and on her near side. Like I said, I'm on the fence about the sabino, as frame can cause jagged edges to the markings as well.

What makes you "highly doubt it's sabino"? My gelding (look in my barn for better pics) is tobiano, frame, and sabino and his markings are similarly dispersed to your mom's mare's.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You didn't get what I said. Overo is a broad generic term meaning anything that isn't tobiano. It encompasses *frame*, _splash_ and sabino. She most definitely has something other than tobiano going on. I'd say it's likely *frame* with the way the white is on her neck and on her near side. Like I said, I'm on the fence about the sabino, as frame can cause jagged edges to the markings as well.
> 
> What makes you "highly doubt it's sabino"? My gelding (look in my barn for better pics) is tobiano, frame, and sabino and his markings are similarly dispersed to your mom's mare's.


Now I see what you mean.

Sabino just doesn't seem like it. I definitely could be wrong! I've never really seen a sabino mixed with other patterns before so I guess that's where my doubt comes from.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

daystar88 said:


> Now I see what you mean.
> 
> Sabino just doesn't seem like it. I definitely could be wrong! I've never really seen a sabino mixed with other patterns before so I guess that's where my doubt comes from.


Like I said, I'm on the fence about it. Especially since frame can cause the jagged edges to markings as well as sabino. I'd say for sure tobiano and frame, though.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Like I said, I'm on the fence about it. Especially since frame can cause the jagged edges to markings as well as sabino. I'd say for sure tobiano and frame, though.


I just googled a tobiano frame sabino and she actually does look very similar. When I think of sabinos I think of a whole different category of paints. Clearly I was wrong. Thank you so much for helping me out!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

You're welcome. Sabino can be very subtle when mixed with other white genes. Most people think of the flashy arabs when they think sabino. We're pretty sure my best friend's filly is sabino (she has scattered roaning through her pitch black coat during the summer) and all she has is a 3" belly spot that you have to be under her to see, four white socks, and a blaze.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> You're welcome. Sabino can be very subtle when mixed with other white genes. Most people think of the flashy arabs when they think sabino. We're pretty sure my best friend's filly is sabino (she has scattered roaning through her pitch black coat during the summer) and all she has is a 3" belly spot that you have to be under her to see, four white socks, and a blaze.


She sounds adorable!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Got it wrong. She has a star, not a blaze. Please ignore her gnarly feet. They've since been taken care of.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

She IS adorable!!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

She's a handful. Most likely Arab/paint or quarab. Very much got the Arab opinion and smarts. Too bad she was almost ruined when my best friend got her. She'd been started under saddle as a long yearling and been ridden hard by her ex-boyfriend because the people who sold her to him told him she was a 6yo and he was too dumb to check. He couldn't figure out why she would blow up and was so hard to deal with, so instead of trying to figure it out, he tried to beat it and ride it out of her. She'll still bolt at a dead gallop if given half a chance to and she just turned 5. :sad:


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

Poor baby!! I HATE it when people lie about a horse's age. We bought an arab mare back in 2008 and were told she was 4! Had the vet out to look at her cause she had a bad cold and found out she was really 2..


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

She was barely two when my best friend got her and we figure at that point, she'd been under saddle for at least a year. Her knees weren't even close to closed and she still had her baby teeth. She's been sitting for the majority of the last three years, just being a horse. She wasn't quite 14hh when my best friend got her and now she's pushing 14.3hh. She's bulked up a lot, too. She'll make a wonderful barrel horse or even a nice little hunter. She's got beautiful Arab movement. She just needs someone with time, patience, and *knowledge* to work through her issues. Unfortunately, that combination is in short supply in this area.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

daystar88 said:


> I just googled a tobiano frame sabino and she actually does look very similar. When I think of sabinos I think of a whole different category of paints. Clearly I was wrong. Thank you so much for helping me out!


I think to answer the question for "tobiano" "overo" "tovero" she is definitely tobiano.

But as Drafty explained that doesn't mean too much as far as genetics. Definitely tobiano and I am not good on picking out other patterns unless obvious, but I agree she has more then just that.

Yikes on the buckskins leg! Poor boy, what did he do?


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

Wow DraftyAriesMum!

Yogiwick he cut his leg loading into a trailer I was told. It's been taken care of though. I know she definitely has tobiano, but she seems more than that with her markings.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Almost all tobianos have at least one other white expression gene in play as well. Many have 3 or 4 white genes at play but the other genes at play on this mare is not expressing enough to be considered "Tovero", she is classified as tobiano. But I strongly agree that she likely carries frame, which means if she were ever bred in the future, she needs to be tested for frame just to be sure. If he does carry frame, any potential stallion matchup must be tested no matter the white pattern or even lack of white (frame can hide on solid horses) before otherwise you risk a 1 in 4 chance of watching a full term beautiful baby die and no amount of vet care or even surgery will be able to save its life. That is the sad, harsh reality when breeding frame carriers.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

SunnyDraco said:


> Almost all tobianos have at least one other white expression gene in play as well. Many have 3 or 4 white genes at play but the other genes at play on this mare is not expressing enough to be considered "Tovero", she is classified as tobiano. But I strongly agree that she likely carries frame, which means if she were ever bred in the future, she needs to be tested for frame just to be sure. If he does carry frame, any potential stallion matchup must be tested no matter the white pattern or even lack of white (frame can hide on solid horses) before otherwise you risk a 1 in 4 chance of watching a full term beautiful baby die and no amount of vet care or even surgery will be able to save its life. That is the sad, harsh reality when breeding frame carriers.


What do they die of? I've never heard this before and it's making me nervous!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

daystar88 said:


> What do they die of? I've never heard this before and it's making me nervous!


It is called Lethal White Overo Syndrome. When two frame carriers cross, you have a 25% chance of getting a homozygous frame foal and it is lethal, the foal dies painfully within 72 hours of birth because there is an undeveloped part of their digestive system which is vital to survival outside the womb. The foal is usually born all white or nearly all white but cannot poop, there have been many unsuccessful attempts by vets to try to save these foals just incase there was a way. There is not, the only thing you can do is humanely euthanize the foal to save it the pain and suffering. There have been times in the past that someone on the forum has had the tragedy of a lethal white foal, one was a foaling thread of a mare that a previous owner had claimed had tested negative for frame and the forum member believed them even though she had markings that looked like it could have been expressed by frame. There was a more recent occurance of a lethal white foal on the forum when another member had no idea that there was a problem with pasturing their stallion with their mare/s until the first foal came with they then had to euthanize the same day it was born as the vet confirmed that the white foal was indeed a lethal white. If you google lethal white syndrome foals, you will see images of these babies that have been posted on the internet to educate others about the dangers of breeding frame carriers, the foals in the pictures are in pain as though they are constipated (which basically they are because no matter how much they try or how much you try to help them, nothing will come out and they begin dying from the toxic wastes building up inside them)


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

daystar88 said:


> Wow DraftyAriesMum!
> 
> Yogiwick he cut his leg loading into a trailer I was told. It's been taken care of though. I know she definitely has tobiano, but she seems more than that with her markings.


Yes I agree, so technically she is tovero (tobiano + ?), but as far as registration purposes I do not believe they would consider her that. I think she would be called tobiano.

But yes there is definitely at least 2 if not more patterns at work there. As I said I just don't know what! lol

Poor guy, it's ugly


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> Yes I agree, so technically she is tovero (tobiano + ?), *but as far as registration purposes I do not believe they would consider her that. I think she would be called tobiano*.
> 
> But yes there is definitely at least 2 if not more patterns at work there. As I said I just don't know what! lol
> 
> Poor guy, it's ugly


Yep, I agree.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

Thank you everyone! 

Yogiwick it was surprisingly better than what I was told when it happened. I thought it was to the bone (in which case would have been really bad like 2 of our previous horses). It's just the skin pulled up and it bled. But it's taken care of and he's had his tetanus shot and everything needed to heal completely.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hope you fixed the trailer.....


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

greentree said:


> Hope you fixed the trailer.....


I'm not even sure how he cut his leg to be honest. There isn't any part that's sharp unless they fixed it after it happened.


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## EliRose (Aug 12, 2012)

Please get your mares tested for frame, especially as the stallion she is presumably IF to (considering he's pictured with her) is also a pinto. LWO is not something to play around with.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Here are a couple articles that discuss the (known) genetics of patterns in Paints and the complexities when multiple patterns mix. http://apha.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/TheColorInside1.pdf


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