# Horse Heavy on Forehand at Canter



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Corazon, to me it sounds like he doesn't have a balance even on trot. You really want him to be balanced and move from behind on trot before you'll get a nice "light" canter. Could you post some pics/videos may be? If you have a dressage instructors in area, may be taking some lessons would benefit you both.


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

I have a picture attached here that I took of him this fall. I have no recent videos, but I have a link to one from the end of August/early September with him...I need to get my most recent video on the computer first. If I have time tonight, I might post that later. Otherwise, this lesson video will give you an idea of him. He's not running out of jumps anymore and I'd like to believe my form has gotten better now. Hope this helps! Link to video: 
https://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=2153559077228

Hopefully it lets you view it.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I think a good dressage instructor will help you a lot.

In the meantime, lots and lots of transitions from trot to canter and back. Don't let him canter on until he gets really strung out before transitioning down. Get him to canter, let him go three or four strides, half halt to rebalance, and transition down to the trot.

Then do it again, and again, and again. It is exhausting work for him and for you, but it will pay off in the long run.

The trot that I could see in the video could use more over tracking of the hind legs, meaning more hind end engagement.

I'm in a similar position with my lease horse. She's been out of work for a good while and every ride is really focused on building connection from back to front and building strength and aerobic fitness.


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

Unfortunately, we don't have any dressage trainers in the area (I live where western is the primary riding style). But thanks for the idea, it sounds a lot less exhausting than cantering on haha. I'll try to get a more recent video up tonight.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Corazon Lock said:


> Unfortunately, we don't have any dressage trainers in the area (I live where western is the primary riding style).


Before you give up on that idea, ask these folks if they know of someone that you can trailer to or can come to you.

Home - Iowa Dressage & Combined Training Association

And in any case, I recommend you hit youtube for the dressage training videos by Jane Savoie. She has a way of both explaining and demonstrating her point very very well.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Just as Mildot said, trot-canter-trot transitions are your best friend
There is no point at all, in continuing to canter once the horse is on its front legs. It is very difficult to get a horse back up and sitting on its hind legs once it's already burying into the ground. 
Make sure the trot is forward, off the forehand and balanced before you ask for canter, canter for a few strides, thinking 'up' in those strides, then back to trot. I usually aim for 12 trot strides, 10 canter strides, 12 trot strides etc. for a green horse, but once they build muscle, balance and confidence, I ride transitions with only one to two strides of canter, to three to five trot strides. 
These transitions, if ridden well - uphill, balanced, in front of the leg, active etc. are just brilliant for encouraging a horse to use its back through transitions and within paces. 

As for his conformation, well yes he does have a long back, steep shoulder and low set neck, but his quarters and hind limbs are strong and sturdy, there should be no reason that he cannot sit behind with some good riding by you.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Corazon Lock said:


> Unfortunately, we don't have any dressage trainers in the area (I live where western is the primary riding style)...


You might look for a good western trainer, and explain you are looking for 3-4 lessons with your horse for ideas on how to correct this specific problem.

Trooper is stiff enough in one shoulder that his canter is terrible in one direction. Even if he starts on the correct lead, he'll switch. I hired a local trainer to give my daughter-in-law & I four lessons on how to get him off his front and balanced better. She comes from a barrel racing background, but barrel racers don't want their horses pulling themselves around the barrel with their front legs either!

She gave both of us some riding tips - position, rein use, etc. She also gave us a bunch of things to work on with him. Mostly circles at a walk or trot, and what to watch for and how to help him correct it when he turns wrong. Trooper's problem is most noticeable in a canter, but much of the work he needs can be done at a walk or trot. His previous life as a low-level ranch horse didn't teach him to use his rear.

We haven't done much riding this month due to weather, but the exercises WERE helping him. They were exercises that a dressage rider would probably recognize. In fact, ANY good trainer will know some exercises to improve collection and balance. I don't know any English trainers in our area, but I know several western ones who are big on getting the horse to use his rear end. And the ones I know have no problem with being asked for 3-4 lessons to deal with a specific problem, and they wouldn't require someone to switch tack or styles.

I would not hesitate to hire a dressage coach for some training help with a western horse, so I see no problem in asking a good western coach for help with an English horse.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms makes a good point that I hadn't thought about.

The english disciplines are not the only ones that want their horses engaging their rear ends.

He also brings up the same point my trainer made to me: the trot is the working gait that most improves a horse's fitness.

It may seem boring, but time spent trotting while performing rebalancing half halts to make Rusty seek connection and engagement will be time well spent.

I feel your pain, I am working the same issue right now. While it seems that he should not have this problem after a year and a half of work, it may be that you and your trainer were not focusing on the kinds of exercises that Rusty needs.

Tell you what though, it's fun to watch Calypso (my horse) have an a-ha moment as she grabs the bit (in a good way) and I can feel her back lift and the push from the hind end get stronger.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

I just thought of another drill that helps not only with hind end engagement (particularly the inside hind) but also helps with balance and self carriage: spiraling trot circles.

Start a 20 meter (or however wide your arena is) trot circle in either direction. As you circle, ask for a spiraling in by keeping the horse bent around using inside leg to outside rein aid while asking the haunches to move in with your outside leg just behind the girth. As you get to the smallest circle that you can, transition to a spiral out by leg yielding out as you trot around all the way back to the wall/fence.

Do that several times in a session in each direction.


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

These are some great ideas! Hopefully our unseasonably warm weather will stay so I can go riding him and bust out trot-canter-trot transitions. Anything to make the riding more enjoyable and comfortable (not to mention SAFE) in the long run. I'm trying to figure out how to hook up the camcorder to the computer and download the videos of my lesson from a few weeks ago. Once I do that, maybe I can upload them so you all can see better footage of his trot and canter (my mom videotaped the video on here...my dad did a much better job!).


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mildot said:


> I just thought of another drill that helps not only with hind end engagement (particularly the inside hind) but also helps with balance and self carriage: spiraling trot circles...


Dang! That is one of the things I paid a barrel racer instructor to tell me...could have got it here for free!


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> Dang! That is one of the things I paid a barrel racer instructor to tell me...could have got it here for free!


:wink: Buy a cold one to make up for it.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Corazon Lock said:


> bust out trot-canter-trot transitions.


Remember the half halt, twice. Once before asking for the down transition, and another one during the transition to reinforce the push from the back end.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

mildot said:


> :wink: Buy a cold one to make up for it.


I meant I'll buy you a cold one.......:lol:


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

I wish I had an arena but I don't...  But I'm sure I can practice all these exercises in the pasture. I had a lesson today and Rusty was pretty heavy, but I noticed after the jumps his canter lightened (we were trotting in and cantering out). Is his leaning on the bit and being hardmouthed part of the forehand ordeal?


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## brackenbramley (May 29, 2011)

transitions, spiral circles, i would also add in trotting poles and cavaletti x good luck x


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Corazon Lock said:


> I wish I had an arena but I don't...  But I'm sure I can practice all these exercises in the pasture


You sure can. To make life easier use whatever you can to easily mark you an arena. You can use wooden stakes painted in a bright color. In fact, the dimensions and reference letters of the two standard dressage arena sizes are easily found on the net. Even though you may not have any desire to compete in dressage, a standard dressage arena has several benefits for ground work.

1) You know the distances from any point/letter to the other. So it's easy to make a 20 meter circle, a 10 meter circle, a 15 meter circle, etc. 

2) Again, the known distances and reference markers make it easy to tell if changes within a gait (slower/faster canter for example) are working. It's very easy to pass A and count the number of canter strides to F.

3) If you have the self discipline, the known distances and reference markers of a dressage arena make it easy to be precise in your riding.



Corazon Lock said:


> Is his leaning on the bit and being hardmouthed part of the forehand ordeal?


Yeah, they are very likely symptoms.

As he learns to carry more of his weight on his haunches, he should stop using the bit for balance.

Watch out though, because as he become more round in the back and is pushing more from behind, he will seek more contact with the bit. It might seem like he's being hardmouthed and leaning on it, but it's a totally different deal where he stretches his topline muscles to accept the bit. One sign of good contact is that Rusty's poll become his higher point, his head is down but not behind the vertical, and you feel him mouthing at the bit (playing with it in his mouth). That's good contact and you should resist the "hunter" urge to throw it away.

Like Jane said in the video, that contact is how we recycle energy back to the haunches and is part of what makes riding a horse that is truly on the bit a pleasure to ride.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

OP - your horse is definately not built downhill - his withers are far higher than his rump!

To lighten the horse and get him off the forehand you need to get the quarters under the horse more. To achieve this you need to get him more supple both laterally and longitudinally.

For lateral suppleness you need to work on circles, loops, serpentines and changes of rein. Being more supple laterally allows him to step under his body more with ease.

For longitudinal suppleness you need to do millions of transitions between paces and within the pace. This will make him sharper to your aids and will help lower the hindquarters and lighten the shoulders.

There will be times when you have to be quite tough when you say slow down - A strong outside rein aid only - not both if he says he doesn't want to slow down. To get his head up off the floor to some degree you are going to have to tell him at what level you want his head. Lift both hands up so that the bit lifts in the mouth, and at the same time a strong leg aid.


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

Tnavas,
I feel as if I am using all my strength to pull him back and he keeps going on. Now my instructor says inside rein to get him to listen - what does the outside rein do in this instance (not saying either of you are wrong!). I also do lift my hands up to get his headset higher, but he usually ends up pulling me down. Maybe I should lift weights? Haha. 

Once again, all great ideas that I will try with him. I'm hoping to get out tomorrow after work and work with him.

Also, love the dressage arena idea in the grass, mildot. I could even make that. I wish we had an arena because Rusty gets stronger in open spaces and more excitable...his response is to drop his head way down and the canter and speed off. And of course it's tough to get him to slow down. 

Would a different bit be beneficial in any of these situations? My instructor today gave me two different bits to try on Rusty to see how he responds. I originally had him in an eggbutt snaffle, but he resisted turning, so I swapped to a full cheek snaffle, where I found him getting heavy. Then I got a dee ring with copper rollers which seemed to work a little better. My instructor gave me a slow twist dee ring and a pelham to try with him. Just curious what you all think about this.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

The D ring with copper rollers would be ideal - the D shape helps with turning and the copper rollers encourage him to salivate and not to grap hold of the bit so easily. 

The pelham will assist with brakes but will also encouorage him to get his head down.

Using the ooutside rein is giving him a half halt - if you give it strongly then the result should be more immediate. As he begins to respond to this then the aid can become lighter.

Try using one rein stronger than the other - this unbalances the bit in his mouth making it harder for him to lean. Remember that if you pull - he will pull. The aids need to unbalance him a little - this is where lots of turns, loops and serpentines come in to use, but you need to do lots, and not go around and around the schooling area without doing soomething different.


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## Valentina (Jul 27, 2009)

Corazon Lock said:


> I wish I had an arena but I don't...  But I'm sure I can practice all these exercises in the pasture. I had a lesson today and Rusty was pretty heavy, but I noticed after the jumps his canter lightened (we were trotting in and cantering out). Is his leaning on the bit and being hardmouthed part of the forehand ordeal?


Yes (for leaning and No for hardmouthed - hard mouth was caused by poor riding/training). Jumping makes horse shift weight off forehand onto hind legs, thus making the forehand lighter.


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

So does jumping itself help Rusty learn to lighten his forehand and use his hindquarters? He's always been hardmouthed...not sure how to cope with that, but he definitely ignores me the worst at the canter when he's leaning on the bit.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Corazon Lock said:


> So does jumping itself help Rusty learn to lighten his forehand and use his hindquarters? He's always been hardmouthed...not sure how to cope with that, but he definitely ignores me the worst at the canter when he's leaning on the bit.


Haven't read the entire thread but have you tried half-halts? And also playing with the reins thus wiggling the bit in his mouth a little might make him give.

As for hard mouthed.. it helps to make sure your horse knows AND RESPONDS to key words like walk, halt, trot so you can work on using softer aids to get him to come back down. If he responds even a little bit, make sure you reward it.. it can be hard though.

What happens if you use a loose rein and go through w/t/c and down again?


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Wriggling the bit is what you don't do! If the horse is not yet accepting the contact all wriggling the bit will is possibly drop his head but will not engage his hind end.

When the horse truly accepts the contact he brings his hindquarters under him and works through a rounded supple back yielding at the poll.


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## hannxo (Jan 3, 2012)

My horse is EXACTLY the same, some people who watched him put it down to him being green and said he'd grow out of it, but after 9 months or so of extremely little improvement, if any, i got an instructor in. He also used to do it pretty bad in trot. Never at walk though so I thought it was a balance thing. My instructors first suggestion was a stronger bit, but I disagreed straight away and said I didn't want to use anything stronger than a snaffle on him. She also suggested a dentist to check out his teeth, but he'd seen one. The last thing was, in canter, or trot, to lift up the inside hand quickly and sharply to stop him leaning, it has to be up though, not back, straight up. It did get his head up, but most of the time it went straight back down, but I continually did it, and we are seeing an improvement, so maybe it'll work for you. We also do lots of circle work, transitions and such. Halt/Walk to canter is a good one but it makes my horse really lively and excitable so I tend to stick to trot-canter etc.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Tnavas said:


> Wriggling the bit is what you don't do! If the horse is not yet accepting the contact all wriggling the bit will is possibly drop his head but will not engage his hind end.
> 
> When the horse truly accepts the contact he brings his hindquarters under him and works through a rounded supple back yielding at the poll.


Well if he's pulling on the bit, pulling won't help and I understand the mechanics of being round and supple.. but if he's just plowing on the front end, I've found that getting them to soften in their mouth (NOT yank them into a headset, but to stop holding onto that bit) then you at least have more to work with and can work on bringing the horse back on its hind. 

Right? Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Gently sponging the reins (aka wriggling the bit) I have found helps the horses I have ridden to relax their jaw. 

It's a waste of time to try to engage their hind end if they don't relax at the jaw and at the poll first.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

mildot said:


> Gently sponging the reins (aka wriggling the bit) I have found helps the horses I have ridden to relax their jaw.
> 
> It's a waste of time to try to engage their hind end if they don't relax at the jaw and at the poll first.


 yeah I agree!


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## Ransomed (Jan 2, 2012)

I agree that spiraling trot circles work wonders.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Conformation and the rider's ability to overcome certain conformations are also something that needs to be taken into consideration.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Spyder said:


> Conformation and the rider's ability to overcome certain conformations are also something that needs to be taken into consideration.


Would you elaborate, please?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Okay I watched the video again and I think you need to take the jumps away and work him on the flat (not a lesson.. just, riding.) Someone brought up the fact to me that he seems stiff.. and now I see it too. You need to get him working on being giving and soft in his neck, his feet, his jaw.. his back, everything. 

When you were trotting him, it was a working trot, but it wasn't put together. Probably because you had a lot of things going on and there were jumps you had to prepare for. I would slow this trot down with some good half halts and get him working on the rail and then figure eights, and 20 meter or larger circles. Get him bending.. carrot stretches when you are tacking up, little bits of ground work here and there. Lunging on a line directing his nose and pushing him away and forward. Etc.

I wouldn't even focus on his heavy on the forehand until you address the stiffness.

But slow that trot down and keep it very slow. Almost a jog. It's harder work and he'll learn how be very light with his feet instead of plowing them down. 

When he's looser, and softer, then you can start directing him more on his hind. And I think you need more trot and walk work before you can get that canter down. 

Hopefully I didn't seem rude or get too rambly. I would DEFINITELY find someone that knows dressage in one way or another.. it would benefit you and your horse soooo much. The reason I say dressage is because they focus entirely on the mechanics and deep seat to connect the horse. Though you could probably find a trainer in another discipline that is just as knowledgeable. I just speak from experience is all


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Skyes - stiffness and being on the forehand go hand in hand. 
Stiffness must be addressed at the same time as bringing the horse off the forehand - riding forward, juggling the horse between the legs etc.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Corazon Lock, you might try posting this question on the jumping forum. There are differences in what a jumper is after and what a dressage rider is after, and you might get some jumping specific advice on the jumping forum. 

I don't understand the differences well enough to explain, but I think for jumping you need him to be able to gather himself is a short distance and for a short duration in prep for the jump, while dressage is oriented to teaching collected movement. I don't do either sport, but the jumping folks may be able to give you some discipline oriented advice._"...you hear people say that they collect their horses before the jump or in a trappy situation in the hunting field...One in a thousand of those who use this word so easily, really collects his horse. The best of the rest merely refer to the ability of their horses to change their balance by gathering themselves, which is known as 'coming back' and which requires only a simple technique on the part of the rider....and you will have to argue hard to prove that it [collection] is necessary for cross-country riding and jumping."_ - V.S. Littauer, "Common Sense Horsemanship" page 203​


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Kayty said:


> Skyes - stiffness and being on the forehand go hand in hand.
> Stiffness must be addressed at the same time as bringing the horse off the forehand - riding forward, juggling the horse between the legs etc.


Why's that?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Because if the horse is balancing on his shoulders and neck, there will ALWAYS be resistance in the shoulder, neck, poll, jaw and back. If the back cannot swing, there will be resistance in the hind quarters. You will never get the horse truely supple and relaxed, if it is dragging itself around on its front legs.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

My guess is this horse is traveling true straight and not horse straight, hence no proper bend which makes half halts useless since they cannot go through. OP, when you are cantering this horse on a straight line, can you see his inside eyelashes and touch of nostril?


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Basic schooling for a show jumper is no diferent than that for a dressage horse. You want to develop a horse that will move off your leg as soon as asked and will slow down when asked and is supple so that it can get around turns in a balanced manner - these are achieved in exactly the same way in both disciplines.

When you want to go further then yes the dressage rider want expression in paces and the show jumper wants to jump higher and faster.

For both, the horse supple both laterally and longitudinally will be able to co-operate.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Adding to the above post, the showjumper needs to be sitting on its haunches just as well as a low-mid level dressage horse if its going to get over big fences in a controlled manner. Therefore, advice from a straight out dressage rider and straight out showjumper SHOULD be the same.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Sorry bsms, but Tnavas and Kayty are right. 

There is no fundamental difference between what jumpers (not show hunters) and dressage riders want out of their horse.

The power to jump = the power to collect = weight on the haunches.


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

As above ^^^^^ and would add that the Show Hunter would want the same obedience and suppleness too.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Kayty said:


> Adding to the above post, the showjumper needs to be sitting on its haunches just as well as a low-mid level dressage horse if its going to get over big fences in a controlled manner. Therefore, advice from a straight out dressage rider and straight out showjumper SHOULD be the same.


My point was that a dressage horse needs to move in a collected manner for a sustained time. According to V.S. Littauer, that is a different requirement than a jumper has, and he considered the need of the jumper easier to attain.

I don't do dressage, and I don't jump. I'm simply suggesting that this:



mildot said:


> Sorry bsms, but Tnavas and Kayty are right.
> 
> There is no fundamental difference between what jumpers (not show hunters) and dressage riders want out of their horse.
> 
> The power to jump = the power to collect = weight on the haunches.


is wrong. Collection is NOT the same as gathering for a jump - according to an expert in the field of jumping. Collection in dressage involves collected gaits, which are a different requirement from temporary shifting of weight.

As an example that involves neither jumping nor dressage...if I ask Trooper to canter thru a tight turn, he WILL transfer a lot of weight to his rear and power thru the turn. It helps if I lean back a bit and support his shoulder. That is NOT the same as riding collected, and does not require Trooper to be on the bit.

What I need from Trooper is flexibility, and the ability to gather himself at appropriate times. We're working on both, but trying to put him on the bit, or teach him dressage collection, is not required.

Since I do not jump, I recommended the OP see if there is any jumping specific advice. Perhaps someone can tell her how to gather her horse for a jump without first teaching it full collection. I don't know - so I suggested she ask.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

BSMS, if you read through my previous posts, you will see that I don't mention 'full' collection. The level of 'collection' required at the basic level of dressage is not to do with having the horse 'on the bit' and 'collected' to the point of being able to pop straight into a piaffe. 
A horse at this level is just moving freely forward, off the forehand, over the back with active hind legs. They should be able to 'sit' a little more through turns, and push off the hind legs in transitions.

There are many degrees of collection, collection is not just collection that you see on Grand Prix or baroque horses.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"They should be able to 'sit' a little more through turns, and push off the hind legs in transitions."

Pretty much all horses do that to some degree. Getting them to do so better is something most riding disciplines want. Getting them to do much more is the aim of dressage.

As I wrote earlier on this thread, dressage can help a western horse and a western trainer might be able to help a horse with transitional weight shifts. But since the goals are different, it seems that the training might also differ. Thus the suggestion to check with jumping enthusiasts to see that she isn't heading in the wrong direction - as I would be, if I tried to put my horse 'on the bit'.

It is not an insult to dressage, but a suggestion to make sure she doesn't go too far down a road that won't get her where she wants to go. And since I don't jump (I only read!), I cannot advise her. But there are a lot of jumpers on the forum, and not many have chimed in on this thread.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> if I ask Trooper to canter thru a tight turn, he WILL transfer a lot of weight to his rear and power thru the turn. It helps if I lean back a bit and support his shoulder. *That is NOT the same as riding collected*, and does not require Trooper to be on the bit.


Oh but it is, you just explained how you did it in the sentence previous. It was enough collection for the job at hand, but nothing more.

And Trooper had to have been on the aids (not just on the bit) to respond to your weight and rein cues by shifting his weight back and inside to make it around the turn.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

I think you will find that a lot of the 'die hard' jumpers will say the same thing as I have. I know MIEventer is quite an experienced jumper, and she has always preached the need for dressage training of a jumping horse, to improve jumping ability.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mildot said:


> Oh but it is, you just explained how you did it in the sentence previous. It was enough collection for the job at hand, but nothing more...


This is where I need to quote my previous post to explain terms a bit:



bsms said:


> ..._"...you hear people say that they collect their horses before the jump or in a trappy situation in the hunting field...One in a thousand of those who use this word so easily, really collects his horse. The best of the rest merely refer to the ability of their horses to change their balance by gathering themselves, which is known as 'coming back' and which requires only a simple technique on the part of the rider....and you will have to argue hard to prove that it [collection] is necessary for cross-country riding and jumping."_ - V.S. Littauer, "Common Sense Horsemanship" page 203​


A collected gait is different than momentary 'collection' - what Littauer called "_'coming back' and which requires only a simple technique on the part of the rider"._ Now, if 'coming back' requires only a simple technique on the part of the rider, then maybe the OP should seek that out first...and feel free to explore greater levels of collection at a later date.

With Trooper, I want him to learn simple collection, perhaps - or gathering back. I want him to gather himself in preparation to accelerate or to turn or pivot, but I don't want a collected gait so a half-halt MIGHT not be the way to teach him what I want. A turn into the rail might do the trick for him & for me. Maybe not - I'm still learning.

Unfortunately, since I don't jump, I can't tell her where the line is drawn, if it will affect her, or what the "_simple technique on the part of the rider"_ would be - so I suggested asking the question in the jumping subforum.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

All of the above is somewhat off topic but maybe this will explain that a horse taken off the forehand works for both dressage and jumper.

When there is an even weight distribution it is the basis for lightness and balance.

As one BNT puts it, like a ball rolling along easily in any direction. Impact is reduced and as a result of flexed joints taking up the force of that impact.

A stiff horse will be heavy because the legs are taking the full impact on unbent joints that will compromise their stamina and endurance. 

Once the hind legs are engaged either through equestrian means ( rider influence) or naturally ( horse adjusting their balance naturally) the the balance improves and collection as we see in both jumper and dressage can be worked on to the degree that is required for that discipline.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Let me give an example from today's riding, which may horrify everyone on the forum...

Trooper likes to canter. He knows I like to canter. So I spent much of today working on an easy trot, because I don't want him to think trotting is just preparation for cantering. However, while walking at one point, I started talking to him about cantering. I've done this with Trooper before. Ask him if he wants to canter, if he thinks it is exciting, etc.

How did Trooper respond? Well, his head came UP. His back hollowed a bit, I'd say. But his hind legs came under, he got light on the front end...and when I whispered "GO!!!" and gave him a squeeze, he unloaded. I was leaning forward to help keep my balance. He sprang into a canter.

Arguably, that is not the most efficient manner of going from a walk to a canter. Maybe it would be faster if his head was tucked in, his back round, and there was a 'circle of energy' going from his rear to the bit to my hands...but then, I had hard enough time keeping up with him anyways.

And when I reverse direction with him at a canter, I don't see him dropping his nose and rounding his back. Maybe he does it and I don't see it since no one films us and I'm not a very sensitive rider - but I'm pretty sure his nose is stretched out, his neck level or above. 

This sure as heck isn't me or Trooper. Our turns are incredibly wimpy in comparison:










But the horse's neck & head position is more like Trooper's than a collected horse would be.

This picture pulled from the Internet of a horse preparing to jump may not epitomize what a jumper should be doing - again, I don't jump. But this doesn't look like a horse that is thinking, "I collect, therefor I jump".


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

bsms said:


> Unfortunately, since I don't jump, I can't tell her where the line is drawn, if it will affect her, or what the "_simple technique on the part of the rider"_ would be - so I suggested asking the question in the jumping subforum.


As a person whos horses jump and do dressage, my horses all work at home to Open Medium level - it makes them great for jumping as they are able to respond very quickly to the riders requests.

Any showjumping horse schooled in 'dressage' (which show jumping people prefer to call 'flat work') will be able to perform better. The OP could do with flat lessons as well as jumping to improve her overall position. 

*OP* - I have looked at your video. Currently your horse is strung out, you needs to straighten your back, bend your elbows, lift your hands until you have a straight line elbow/hand/horses mouth, and make sure you have thumbs on top. Your hands are unsteady at the moment because your rising trot is originating from your feet rather than your knees. At times your rein contact is non-existant so means that the horse has nothing to work to. As your position stabalises you will be able to apply the aids with more effect. 

With your jumping - I'd like to see your stirrups up a hole or two more to secure your lower body position, as you are finding riding in jumping position rather unbalancing. 

Enjoy your horse he seems to be very kind and tries hard for you.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I haven't paid attention to anything but the first page, but I must say I lurve your dun  I just love duns. They're pretty horses


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

BSMS, I think you have misunderstood collection in general terms. Collection is not about the position of the head. 
The horse doesn't need to put two and two together "If I am collected, that means I'm about the jump".


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Spyder, Trooper is a stiff horse. He takes too much weight on his front. He's a poor example to use for anything but needing improvement. One of the reasons I don't want to canter him much is he almost ALWAYS picks up a left lead. If he starts on a right lead, he'll switch. We have a LONG way to go. He's had some rough times in his life, and I wouldn't be surprised if his shoulders or legs just don't have the flexibility to do otherwise right now.

In that sense, I'm well behind the OP in training. We're working circles (real circles, which both of us find hard) and turns. I like some of the cantering because a change in direction to the lead he favors seems to encourage him to dig underneath him and hopefully get a feel for what happens when he uses his rear for the turn.

I don't doubt dressage training would help us both, and we may do it sometime if I find anyone to come out and work with us (and at a price I can afford - right now all my training cash is going into my mare, who is a whole different story).

I don't in any way mean to disparage dressage. I only want folks to remember where the difference in goals might lead to some differences in training - and I don't know enough to know what they might be.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

bsms said:


> In that sense, I'm well behind the OP in training. We're working circles (real circles, which both of us find hard) and turns. I like some of the cantering because a change in direction to the lead he favors seems to encourage him to dig underneath him and hopefully get a feel for what happens when he uses his rear for the turn.
> 
> I don't doubt dressage training would help us both, and we may do it sometime if I find anyone to come out and work with us (and at a price I can afford - right now all my training cash is going into my mare, who is a whole different story).
> 
> .



Actually I don't think you are behind the OP.

For a right lead canter.

Walk...turn right as in a pirouette and ask for the canter from that movement. The minute he switches or tries to switch go back to a right pirouette and do it over.

That is how I would get a young or difficult horse to canter and canter on the correct lead.

The pirouette does not have to be dressage quality but the tighter the turn usually the better the results.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Spyder said:


> Actually I don't think you are behind the OP.
> 
> For a right lead canter.
> 
> ...


 
So, it's like you are riding the corner of a square? How many steps to the right (in your example) would you walk before cueing to pick up the canter?
I mean, do you take several steps into this pirhoette or just one?


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

bsms said:


> This picture pulled from the Internet of a horse preparing to jump may not epitomize what a jumper should be doing - again, I don't jump. But this doesn't look like a horse that is thinking, "I collect, therefor I jump".


As Kayty mentioned, the head is not indicative of collection. That horse is most definitely collected. Look at how far under him his hind legs are and how low is the croup compared to the withers.

There's no other way for a horse to jump cleanly and powerfully than to collect first. I think horses can jump with very little collection, but they are flat in the air, pull rails, and even crash into fences.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

From what I can see you need
To work on suppleness. You said he struggles to canter a circle. My first thought is stiff everything, possibly including rider. 

Lots of bending, hind quarter yeilds and general suppleness at trot.

There are 2 canter strategies I'd use SEPERATLY 

W/c transitions are good once he's fitter

Also , learn a 1 rein stop before trying this,

Ask him to canter in a straight line and let him have as much rein as needed. It sounds like he's stiff and unbalanced and leaning on you for balance. Sit quietly and let him figure out his own feet and lead! When you need to slow down slowly pick up one rein and spiral down to a halt on the side he's leading with.

Sit back as he may have some baby stumbles and treat him like he's never cantered before
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

mildot said:


> As Kayty mentioned, the head is not indicative of collection. That horse is most definitely collected. Look at how far under him his hind legs are and how low is the croup compared to the withers...


Definitions. Does "collect" mean "weight on the rear legs"? If so, then that horse is collected, and I've ridden collected horses.

The point of the quote I posted was that collection has a meaning that goes well beyond a short term transfer of weight to the rear. Dressage wants collected gaits, not a 'collected' transition. Many other sports do NOT want collected gaits, but DO want weight to transfer to the rear in preparation for something.

Take this quote from early in this thread:_"There is no point at all, in continuing to canter once the horse is on its front legs. It is very difficult to get a horse back up and sitting on its hind legs once it's already burying into the ground."
_​If the goal is a collected gait, that is true. And if the horse is 'strung out', with no power coming from the rear, it is also true - but that is much easier to correct. If my horse is getting strung out, I don't need to stop the trot or canter to correct him. I can make him do small weaves, or gently work the reins to slow him a little until he's better balanced, or do a *******ized version of a half-halt (I don't think I do half-halts very well, but I know of them from books, not instruction).

When I learned how to canter last OCTOBER , Trooper hadn't cantered with a rider in a year, and had only done so a couple of times in the last 3 years. He wasn't very good at cantering either, so the first time was pretty wild for both of us. I was counting on him to judge turns, and he had forgotten...there are probably better ways to learn cantering than on a rusty horse in an open area. Oh well.

It only took a few days for him to regain his balance, and now if he gets too much weight too forward, I can lean back a little, use pinky pressure on my reins (no bit, usually), and he'll reset. If not, we'll weave a little and he pulls his head back from the strung out position, engages his rear more and we'll straighten out as a reward.

Some of this is me thinking through things in public, and that is always high risk. It is hard to explain one's thoughts when one isn't entirely clear in them, and grasping to figure something out. For that, I apologize to all.

Spyder, thanks for the advice. If I don't get to try it today, I'll try it out tomorrow. Poor Trooper tries hard, and I sometimes wish he had a better rider than me to work with. But he knows I mean no harm, which counts for a lot with him. Like a lot of horses, he deserves a better rider than he has.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

Collection has many degrees. It isn't an on/off condition.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Spyder said:


> Conformation and the rider's ability to overcome certain conformations are also something that needs to be taken into consideration.


Very very true.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> So, it's like you are riding the corner of a square? How many steps to the right (in your example) would you walk before cueing to pick up the canter?
> I mean, do you take several steps into this pirouette or just one?



It is not the amount of steps that is important but giving the canter aids when the horse's outside leg is in position to receive the aid. So the rider will feel this easier because the horse is straight and the connection between the fore and rear is there.

The huge difference between this way and those that advocate the haunches in position is that the horse is not crooked.

With haunches in the people are saying...move the horse around the fore.

With the pirouette I say move the horse around the rear and maintain a more shoulder in/shoulder fore position. When you do strike off from this position you maintain the turn in a somewhat of a circle.

If the horse is facing a corner but positioned far enough from a corner to allow the horse forward...then the corner itself will also assist the horse to understand what is wanted. In time all that will be needed is a slight shift of the horse forequarters with the aid to canter and the canter will come...and nowhere was the horse put in a crooked position to get it.

All the demands of good equestrian balance will have been satisfied.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Kayty said:


> I think you will find that a lot of the 'die hard' jumpers will say the same thing as I have. I know MIEventer is quite an experienced jumper, and she has always preached the *need for dressage training of a jumping horse, to improve jumping ability*.


Absolutely agree with the statement. It's interesting that I just discussed it with my eventing trainer other lesson. We talked about the "head set" (I know, I know, people don't like the expression :wink: ) and the way you approach a jump (since I'm a beginner jumper we talk about position, approach, and what and what not and why every lesson). The "head set" is definitely different because you want that nose towards the jump, however forwardness/moving from behind is the same whether you ride towards the jump or ride the dressage horse. As long as you lack either it's _very _noticeable at the jump. 

In my experience you bring that weight from forehead first (and that may take lots of flat work depending on horse's confo/ability). Only then you are ready to start working jumping. Heavy on forehead horse is a disaster to jump.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

bsms said:


> Definitions. Does "collect" mean "weight on the rear legs"? If so, then that horse is collected, and I've ridden collected horses.


How do you know the weight was on rear legs though? Most horses I've seen/tried (unless well trained or you know how to ask) throw weight on front.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> How do you know the weight was on rear legs though? Most horses I've seen/tried (unless well trained or you know how to ask) throw weight on front.


 
It takes a lot of practise, feeling, and someone with knowledge to yell on the ground so you can tell what the difference is 

Also, a horse that runs on the forehand will be heavy, dragging on your hands, some sound heavier too. Not only that but the 'roundness' will false as a horse needs to engage its hind end, top line and come in to the hands softly.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

DuffyDuck said:


> It takes a lot of practise, feeling, and someone with knowledge to yell on the ground so you can tell what the difference is


Bahahahahahaha... Very true. I can feel it now, but year ago every horse moving fast enough felt like a rocket.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> Bahahahahahaha... Very true. I can feel it now, but year ago every horse moving fast enough felt like a rocket.


 
Its true though, eyes on the ground is ALWAYS a big help, and thats how I learnt, mainly, to feel the difference.. then I worked on how to achieve it from the word go!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

kitten_Val said:


> How do you know the weight was on rear legs though? Most horses I've seen/tried (unless well trained or you know how to ask) throw weight on front.


I'm not a sensitive rider, but I can tell if my horse is using his rear and shifting weight toward it.

The most helpful exercise I had for this was riding a horse at a walk in a sharp turn. The instructor had me carry my weight forward during the turn. The horse's body was then stiff, and he pulled his body around the turn. Part way thru, she had me shift my weight to the rear. I could feel the horse bring his rear legs under, his body flex, and we were making a nice, balanced turn.

That horse had been trained, and Trooper couldn't do that at first. But once you've felt it, it is pretty unmistakable. The lesson horse wasn't doing a collected gait, but he most certainly engaged his rear and lightened his front - more so than Trooper is capable of doing right now.

I find it very noticeable in turns. If the power is coming from the rear, the horse's body bends some. If it is coming from the front, a stiff & straight body is pulled along behind the front legs. It is as if the horse's torso is a cart. I'm not sure a horse pulling from the front can even do a true circle. When we started, Trooper's circles were hexagons, or maybe a pentagon. We sometimes can only walk a half circle or so before he unbends and starts pulling - but we're improving. I consider straight lines with turns a sign he is pulling his way thru the circle. There certainly is a different feel to him when our circles look more like circles.

Another example would be a horse turning around its rear. He cannot do that if his weight is all on the front.

I can also see it when watching others riding my horses. Trooper knows my daughter doesn't want to canter, and he won't canter with her even if she asks. But they do a lot of trotting, and Trooper's movement while trotting has become lighter and stronger. Trooper's 3/4 inner Arabian is coming to the surface, and he's starting to get that floaty trot with her. A horse doesn't float if they are pulling themselves from the front.

A floaty trot is what I would consider a beginning of a collected gait. If, as some here say, collection should be thought of as a continuum between stiff & top dressage, a floaty trot is about as far as I care for Trooper to go on the continuum - although he has problems doing it with my greater weight. OK, right now he CAN'T pull it off with my 175 lbs...but he's improved.

Hope that makes sense.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

DuffyDuck said:


> Its true though, eyes on the ground is ALWAYS a big help, and thats how I learnt, mainly, to feel the difference.. then I worked on how to achieve it from the word go!


As long as they aren't the rider's eyes 



Spyder said:


> With the pirouette I say move the horse around the rear and maintain a more shoulder in/shoulder fore position. When you do strike off from this position you maintain the turn in a somewhat of a circle.
> 
> If the horse is facing a corner but positioned far enough from a corner to allow the horse forward...then the corner itself will also assist the horse to understand what is wanted. In time all that will be needed is a slight shift of the horse forequarters with the aid to canter and the canter will come...and nowhere was the horse put in a crooked position to get it.


I love how clear your explanations are. Though I'm just learning canter on the lungeline (my horse isn't 100% ready and I am a little farther ahead than he is..) this was helpful.

Thanks


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## Corazon Lock (Dec 26, 2011)

Today it wa nice out, so I went for a ride and decided to try the pelham bit on Rusty. I was skeptical of it, but it was wonderful. Rusty would not lean at the canter. But, like someone pointed out, he's stiff. He masked his stiffness by leaning to me. Now that he won't put his head in the sand, I can tell he's as stiff as a 2 by 4. To the point where I thought he would fall over at corners at the trot.

Point being, does anyone have extra suppling exercises? And why is my horse so stiff anyway?


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

Suppling exercises come in the form of plenty of circle work, loops and serpentines on both reins. 

MAke the circles large to start with - like 25m diameter and make sure that his body conforms to the shape of the circle - you don't need masses of bend to get him to fit the shape. Make sure that you keep a contact on the outside rein and ask for flexion with vibrant fingers on the inside rein. Your inside leg asks the horse to shape his body to the curve and engage the inside hind leg. Make sure that you sit straight over his body - don't lean in as if on a motorbike as this will encourage him to step into the circle rather than around it. Think hips square with horses hips, shoulders square with the horses shoulders head looking in the direction you are going, eyes up.

When you change direction do so on a straight line so that he has time to stretch the side that has just come off the inside of the circle. Make sure that you change the subjecy constantly to keep his mind on you and where he is going.

Along with the longitudinal suppling exercises you also need to supplpe him from tail to nose - you do this by doing lots of transitions, between paces and within the pace as these encourage the hocks to come further under the horse making his shooulders lighter and him able to balance better.

I'm just about to start this all with my mare - today is the day I will begin riding again after a long break. Hoping the old bones will not complain too much!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Corazon Lock said:


> Today it wa nice out, so I went for a ride and decided to try the pelham bit on Rusty. I was skeptical of it, but it was wonderful. Rusty would not lean at the canter. But, like someone pointed out, he's stiff. He masked his stiffness by leaning to me. Now that he won't put his head in the sand, I can tell he's as stiff as a 2 by 4. To the point where I thought he would fall over at corners at the trot.
> 
> Point being, does anyone have extra suppling exercises? And why is my horse so stiff anyway?


Sometimes horses are stiff because the muscles have built up wrong. Sometimes things are "stuck" and they need an adjustment. Sometimes they just haven't learned to be supple. 
If it's the last option, ground work ground work ground work! Carrot stretches, bending with pressure, lateral work, lowering the head, *releasing the jaw* (probably the MOST important one!!!!) 

This thread: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/horsehelp-building-up-your-horses-back-72621/

Has a lot of ways to help a horse's back, which will help the horse a lot, and also build up muscle too  I love that thread.. it has helped me so much.

If you want more specifics, feel free to ask. But that should get you started!


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## Tnavas (Nov 29, 2011)

skyeseternalangel - that is a good link and those exercises are great for building up back muscles - I do the tummy lift one with my TB's as they are prone to being hollow when they come off the track.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Tnavas said:


> skyeseternalangel - that is a good link and those exercises are great for building up back muscles - I do the tummy lift one with my TB's as they are prone to being hollow when they come off the track.


Yeah me too! The difference is astounding and it helps them get 'unstuck' and things become smoother too under saddle.

I've noticed since I've started doing those little exercises, my horse now stays hollow less, even out in pasture.. and the correct muscles are being worked, which is a huge hip hip hooray!

So now I spread that thread around as a place to get good advice and tips and whatnot. I even have it bookmarked


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## Horse lover77 (Jan 2, 2012)

*Horse Heavy onForehand at Canter*

My horse too is heavy on the front end - although this is because he is still growing into his butt. My trainer was having him learn to push off from his rear end by cantering him - stop, reverse, canter 20 steps, stop, reverse, canter 30 steps, stop and keep doing this. It forces the horse to push off and put his weight in the back of him. Its been working for my horse. Hope it helps.


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