# horsemanship rant



## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

I watch some of the horse shows on tv and wonder "why does that person own a horse?" I also watch reining and wonder why do people applaud those unnatural horses? I watch team roping and barrel racing and wonder why don't they train those horses better instead of tying those horse's heads down and jerking on them. 

I try my best to follow the traditions of the Vaqueros, it can take 5-10 years to teach a horse. I work on control and partnership. I than listen to folks who talk about putting 30-60-90 days on a horse and calling them trained. What the heck happened to horsemanship? I know a lot of people are going to be mad at me for this post, but oh well. I think that as horseman, we need to insist on better quality from ourselves, our disciplines and peers. If I see another post or hear another person ask me what bit will make the horse all better I am going to scream! It does not matter what bit you use if you know what the heck you are doing. Learning to use your hands, seat, legs and weight better are what is needed. We need to look at ourselves if the horse is not what we want it to be, not the gear we are using. 

I would put a good ranch horse up against a high end papered show horse in any event. I will never claim to be a cowboy or buckaroo, that would insult those who taught me. I will claim to be a horseman who doesn't know everything but will learn what I can, share what I know and try to make my horse the best she can be. I will work on my riding, ask my wife to watch me and critique my seat and hands, I will video me riding my horse to see for myself. I will read and ask questions about what I am doing, I will learn. What I won't do is blame my equipment or my horse for anything that goes wrong. I won't use gimmick gear like tie-downs and Mylar bits. I won't force my horse into unnatural frames like a peanut pushing show horse. I am a horseman and will stay true to quality horsemanship and care for and train my mare to the best of my ability.

I don't want to hear from those who defend what I have criticized, but I do want to hear from those who would like to pledge to be better horseman, who will give the horse a chance to learn, give it time to learn and teach the horse to be an athlete. Your discipline doesn't matter. If you are trail riding, rodeoing, working cattle for a living, show jumping or dressage, it doesn't matter as long as you are committed to horsemanship.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Im with you. my fiance and i were watching the reined cow horses about a month ago. we were sickened by more than half of them, horses running with their heads to their chests, gaping their mouths and riders PULING on their mouths! If you are going to show at the biggest QH show in az, act like it! There was one rider and his horse who we liked. he was gentle on the horses mouth, the horse was responsive and looked like it liked its job. another one rose in a bosal. 

I have been watching a"trainer" where i board and i pity the horse she is "training" she whomps on the horse for the smallest transgression. she trained the gait right out of him (we is a fox trotter). The worst thing i have seen was when she LUNGED him (clinton anderson style) with a leg hobble. she was trying to get him to RUN around her on 3 legs! Then she did a walking hobble, tried to lunge him at a trot (with the horse almost falling several times) then turned him lose in the arena. The horse crashed into the fence, and went down trying to run. And she left him alone for 30 min.

I have always wanted to learn the way of the vaquero, i got a bosal for that purpose. i would like to work with a trainer but the vaqueros are not easy to find in phoenix.


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## BreakableRider (Aug 14, 2013)

I work mostly with problem horses but I would love to advance my horsemanship and learn to ride and eventually train a bridle horse. 

It's frustrating enough with the 'problem' horses, more like problem owners. I'm always being asked when their horse will be dead broke for anyone... When the horse isn't even safe to ride yet.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I think we are all striving to be better horsemen. We are all here trying to learn. Maybe I am not as far along on my journey as you. And there are people who are behind me just starting out. And people who know more about horses than I will ever know. But it's an individual journey and we are all trying to get better......right?

So why knock people whom are asking questions trying to learn? 

I personally hope to keep my horses until death. I don't take training or horsemanship lightly. However, training my first green horse has been just about the biggest challenge I've faced. It should be easy I suppose. But it hasn't been. So if I come on here asking for training advice, or heaven forbid, I would like to discuss bits, why is that a problem? Would it be better if I just lived in my own little world and never bounced ideas off more experienced horsemen? 

I don't show. My horses would probably suck at ranching as well. But I still love them and am in it for the long haul. I don't have vaquero horsemanship skills. But I am doing the best I can every time I ride. So just because I "fail" at a lot of horse training, doesn't mean I don't want to be a good horseman and am not trying my best. I love my horses and want to have a good partnership with them. If I didn't, I would just live in my own little world and not even come here for advice. 

I do think a lot of people are in it for the wrong reasons. Maybe they care about money or recognition from a judge more than they do the horse. But I would hope most people are into horses because they actually care about horses and like spending time with them. 

By the way, Myler bits are actually very well thought-out. The people who designed them really seem to have a wish to improve horse-human communication without causing the horse pain. I have a feeling you are thinking of another brand of bit with a similar sounding name. But who knows. :?

Anyway, some of us are just doing the best we can with limited resources. If I came into wealth I would go to the best horseman I could find to help me and my horse learn to communicate with each other. But alas, I am not wealthy. So my horsemanship includes some trial-and-error and gather as much information as I can from wherever I can.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I apprecieate your willingness to speak out, and share a perhaps controversial opinion. I agree, to a large extent. I find many show disciplines baffling. utterly baffling, and often wince when I watch horses trained to compete, and win.

but, many of us here are not "horsemen". we are people with regular, mundane lives, full of demands that have nothing to do with horses. but, we do WHAT WE CAN. we don't have the time or circumstances to always be the ultimate student on the ultimate quest for knowledge, or video ourselves a lot or train with the best, or require the best. I am not trying to cop out. I love learning and bettering my riding. but, I don't have the ability to go anywhere near where you can. I am a city girl, learning to ride late in life . the best I can ever hope to do would be something you might find laughable. ( I hope not, not if we really knew each other)

I just mean, don't be too quick to condemn folks for looking for easy ways. some of us don't have a lifetime to devote to horses or horsemanship. you are lucky, so very lucky, that you do.


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## darkpony (Nov 20, 2013)

^^ agreed! In a perfect world, yes, you wouldnt need tie downs or other "assistive training devices"! But in a perfect world.. I wouldnt have a job, school, and other resposibilities that take away from time with horses. If I could spend all day riding, all my horses would be perfect. Don't get me wrong, I see my horses nearly everyday. *Every time I ride, I hope to get off a better horse than the one I started with. *I feel as though I am pretty light in the hands, and can read most any horse. Some people dont have the luxury of riding multiple horses like I do. And if you only ever ride one horse (The horse you own) how will you ever grow? 

With that being said... I think the OP is right to a point. There are quite a few people I know who are in it for the wrong reasons. I dont think it has to do with discipline, but people who are willing to put themselves and their own goals before their horse. If your horse has given you his best.. dont continue to ask for more until the horse can no longer walk. If your horse doesn't understand what you are asking of it, a harsher bit is not going to help your situation. If your horse fears something, it is because you or their previous owners did not take the time (or HAVE the time) to show them there is nothing to fear!


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

5 to 10 YEARS to teach a horse? Most people tend to want their horses rideable before they and the animal succumb to old age.

If you're training only your own horses and just to please yourself, have at it. To denigrate others because they don't follow your ridiculous time table however, is the height of arrogance.

I've seen how some of those Vaqueros 'train' horses. Copious amounts of whip, spurs and big spade bits. So yeah, keep talking on about how awful OTHER disciplines train. :?

Any GOOD horse person thinks of the horse first, so you're certainly neither unique nor better than a majority of the horse owning population. 

As far as you not wanting to hear dissenting opinions, tough luck. Open forum, and anyone is allowed to post their opinions whether you like them or not.


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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> I apprecieate your willingness to speak out, and share a perhaps controversial opinion. I agree, to a large extent. I find many show disciplines baffling. utterly baffling, and often wince when I watch horses trained to compete, and win.
> 
> but, many of us here are not "horsemen". we are people with regular, mundane lives, full of demands that have nothing to do with horses. but, we do WHAT WE CAN. we don't have the time or circumstances to always be the ultimate student on the ultimate quest for knowledge, or video ourselves a lot or train with the best, or require the best. I am not trying to cop out. I love learning and bettering my riding. but, I don't have the ability to go anywhere near where you can. I am a city girl, learning to ride late in life . the best I can ever hope to do would be something you might find laughable. ( I hope not, not if we really knew each other)
> 
> I just mean, don't be too quick to condemn folks for looking for easy ways. some of us don't have a lifetime to devote to horses or horsemanship. you are lucky, so very lucky, that you do.


 to correct a comment of yours....i have one of those mundane jobs too, heck I fix and sell computers, am raising 3 kids and split my off time not just with horses but also practice for competitive pistol shooting. Even with my lack of time, I will still put quality horsemanship first.


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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

Speed Racer said:


> 5 to 10 YEARS to teach a horse? Most people tend to want their horses rideable before they and the animal succumb to old age.
> 
> If you're training only your own horses and just to please yourself, have at it. To denigrate others because they don't follow your ridiculous time table however, is the height of arrogance.
> 
> ...


I wear those big spurs and will eventually use a spade bit on my horse. They are some of the most gentle gear if the rider and horse are educated in their use. A large roweled spur spreads the pressure out more than a small one, its simple physics. A spade bit is not used until the horse can be ridden with little to no pressure from the hands. The hackamore is used first to protect the mouth from harm until the animal knows the signals and subtle cues. Please educate yourself before condemning honored, time proven tack and methods.


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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

darkpony.. 

YES, horsemanship is growing with each encounter with a horse and the horses growing with each encounter with the rider. If mistakes happen, learn from them, don't force perfection. Unfortunately this takes time, no gimmick gear can replace time and horsemanship. My mare has only 2 years of training, many call her broke because she will ride forward, back, and left and right. she is still green because I still have to guide her and remind her of were we are going. Can I use her to help my friend bring in his cattle, yes. Is she a finished horse....no even close.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

First, when I read Ed Corrnel's book on Hackamore reinsmanship, I don't exactly see all old time Vaquero horsemanship training of a bridle horse being completely gentle, and in fact, many programs of reined cowhorses, that produce a good bridle horse today, have a more gentle technique that old Vaquero traditition
I'm not saying that I negate the length of time that was used to produce a bridle horse, but I do resent the implication that it is either use the Vaquero method of training, or you are producing a pushed, un happy or les strained horse, and that is simply not true
You also can't use examples of horses pushed towards upper end futurities as the only example of western horses trained outside of the Vaquero tradition
When horses become a business, be it in the racing industry or some futurity where the big purses are put on the young horses, those horses will be pushed, no doubt about it
But, there are many of us, like myself, that show at the regional level, don't push our horses, use the smae horse to ride trails, move cattle ect, and have always advocated never using a 'bigger' bit for control, but rather for increased refinement, as that horse advances to being shown mainly off of seat and legs, on a loose indirect rein
Conversely, I can see pictures of old time Vaqueros, with that horse way over bent,mouth slightly gaping, more contact that I ever use on the reins, roping grizzly bears. THat was their one area of competition/sport outside of working ranch application, and you sure can see how competition does at times change horsemanship, in the pure sense of the word.
On the other hand, how can you dispute the basics in training of western horses, in programs where that bridle can be completely dropped and the horse runs a reining pattern or a western riding pattern, purely off of seat and legs?
If those horses were just jerked on, controlled by bits rather than solid basic training, those demos would not be possible
Can you drop the bridle on your horse and run a reining pattern?
People asking here as to what bit to go to, are not representing any standard good western modern training program, so , while I appreciate old Vaquero tradition, please don't put it up as the golden standard of western training, with all other programs as being inferior, nor assume that unless ahorse is up in a Spade bit eventually, he lacks training and refinement. I, and many others don't want a Spade bit horse, and am quite happy in riding my finished horses in simple curbs.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

sorral3 said:


> I would put a good ranch horse up against a high end papered show horse in any event.
> ....
> I will video me riding my horse to see for myself


Well, let's see some videos. 

Let's see a sliding stop, a reining spin, a flying lead change, roping a calf, _running_ a barrel pattern, etc. 



sorral3 said:


> I watch some of the horse shows on tv and wonder "why does that person own a horse?" I also watch reining and wonder why do people applaud those unnatural horses? I watch team roping and barrel racing and wonder why don't they train those horses better instead of tying those horse's heads down and jerking on them.


Not to mention, what are your accomplishments in the show pen?




sorral3 said:


> I won't use gimmick gear like tie-downs and Mylar bits.


Huh. Wasn't aware Mylar bits were a "gimmick". I don't happen to have any in my barn but I know many people who they work very well for. I wouldn't hesitate to try one if I think it is what will work best for my horse. 

What make's Mylar bits a "gimmick"?



sorral3 said:


> I don't want to hear from those who defend what I have criticized


Well that doesn't seem hardly fair. You can say whatever you want, but if anyone defends against the claims you are making?

I think you are lumping "everyone else" into a huge stereotype bin. Being (primarily) a barrel racer who DOES highly value horsemanship on my horses, I'm offended when someone lumps "all barrel racers" into the same cluster. I don't tie my horses head down and I certainly don't jerk on them.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Horses aren't stupid, so unless you're perfecting the Airs Above the Ground movements of the Spanish Riding School, they don't need multiple years of training. 

For certain disciplines there is ongoing refinement, but 10 years of training before they're finished? Newp.



News flash; just because someone doesn't agree with you and can point out the flaws in your argument, doesn't mean they're uneducated. If you want to point out the bad practices of other disciplines, yours is subject to the same scrutiny. 

You're trying to set yourself up as some sort of uber horseman, when all I'm seeing is rigidity and unwillingness to actually DISCUSS anything. You merely want to pontificate, and expect the acolytes to praise your wisdom of all things horse. Yeah, not so much.


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## Iseul (Mar 8, 2010)

Bits definitely do make a difference, horses do have preferences. I can do absolutely anything with my mare (except jump, I don't do that, lol) and she rides in a medium port correction bit. I've had her for two years and she's finished (as an all around horse that anyone can manage anything with on her). She was finished over-all (no set discipline) within a little over a year. I also didn't get to start with a fresh slate, I started with a dangerous horse that took off any chance you have her. 

I think you need to educate yourself more instead of spouting off degrading, rude comments about a few riders in different disciplines. While I'd love to ride my mare (and my gelding) in a spade, there is NO ONE even remotely close to learn from. How am I expected to learn that? I've honestly never taken an actual lesson in my life and I get compliments on my soft hands, how well trained my mare is, how well my gelding is coming along, how nice of a seat I have, etc.
There's no reason to put other people down if they don't handle/ride/train their horse like you do.

I'll also be darned if it's going to take me 5-10 years to finish a horse in a certain discipline, no one has time for that. While I appreciate the art of the old vaqueros (who can actually ride and train, not the ones who constantly claim to be but can be found accidently hitting their horse's mouth, accidently spurring their horse (yes, I have big, scary spurs I usually ride in too), etc.

I'd absolutely love to watch a video of such a great rider on their horse that took 10 years to finish as a ranch horse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

Something you need to remember is that just because not everyone wants the same thing out of their horse that you do, does not make their methods or end goals necessarily wrong or yours better. 

What's my end goal with a horse? What do I want to see in a horse that is "finished" or "perfect" for me? 

I want to be able to jump on in a halter and have them be light a responsive. I want to be able to guide them almost completely with my legs and seat and have them respond quickly to a gentle cue. I want them to ride down a trail willingly, over all kinds of terrain. 

I don't want or need them in a spade bit. Ever. I also don't want or need them to do spins or slides or high level dressage moves. 

In any and everything I teach my horse to do, I believe in asking myself why I want that. What do I hope to accomplish? Is that for the horse or just myself? 

The relationship between my mare and I has been growing in leaps and bounds lately because I stopped trying to push what I wanted the way I wanted to and started listening to her. Once I really started listening to what she wanted, she taught me how to make her willing to work and the ways she likes to learn. 

That is what I call good horsemanship regardless of what your end goal with your horse is - Listening to your horse. If I religiously followed a set training method, we'd still be butting heads and both be frustrated.


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## IndianaJones (Aug 13, 2014)

I watched 4 "Vaqueros" take a horse down in a public arena based on the old ways recently...she had sand in her eyes and up her nose...came up off the ground and ran through a metal gate. 4 guys had so many ropes and contraptions on this horse I actually went across the arena to scream them off the property. They abandoned her thank GOD...and luckily she was taken in and after almost a YEAR of rehab is functional again .... only for children tho...bless her heart. Put an adult on her and she goes into full panic. 

I'd take a sweet, light relationship ANY day. And yes...it's always case by case. I've seen enough in person and in video to form my own opinions.... and yeh, I've certainly got one.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

If I may, I would like to clear up what my original post was to say.

I am NOT attacking anyone or am I insisting everyone follow the vaqueros way. I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that I see a lot of people on TV who are supposed to represent the horse world who ride terribly and their horses show it. That those of us, no matter what discipline, need to make it a lifestyle of improving our horsemanship. I know I can always improve. I am doing this by having my wife video me, with her cell phone, for a minute or two so i can see what I need to improve.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

sorral3 said:


> If I may, I would like to clear up what my original post was to say.
> 
> I am NOT attacking anyone or am I insisting everyone follow the vaqueros way. I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that* I see a lot of people on TV who are supposed to represent the horse world who ride terribly and their horses show it.* That those of us, no matter what discipline, need to make it a lifestyle of improving our horsemanship. I know I can always improve. I am doing this by having my wife video me, with her cell phone, for a minute or two so i can see what I need to improve.


The bolded statement you made is where many of us got a little upset. For you to say that these top riders are riding terribly is a strong judgmental statement. When was the last time you tried to perform Grand Prix movements or tried to jump a six foot jump or tried to do a triple combination on a cross country run?

Even the best can appear rough, yet still ride kindly. When you post what you did and then say no one is allowed to counter it, you might rile a few people.


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## Malice (Mar 10, 2012)

sorral3 said:


> I wear those big spurs and will eventually use a spade bit on my horse. They are some of the most gentle gear if the rider and horse are educated in their use. A large roweled spur spreads the pressure out more than a small one, its simple physics. A spade bit is not used until the horse can be ridden with little to no pressure from the hands. The hackamore is used first to protect the mouth from harm until the animal knows the signals and subtle cues. Please educate yourself before condemning honored, time proven tack and methods.


I find this slightly laughable, you defending the tools you use to better your horse while in your first post you are shaming ropers and barrel racers for "tying" their horses head down. Tie downs are used so the horses can brace against something and better their balance, whether from taking a jerk from a cow or from running tight around a barrel. 
The jerking on horse is another thing but also understandable when you take into consideration how HOT those horses get. Sometimes you can train a horse all you want but they'll always be a little different when you take them somewhere and put them in front of a cow/barrel. And your, the horse, and others safety always is more important here where a jerk might be deserved.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think the difference between a rider that simply has a poor style but is still sympathetic and gets good results and one that is purely a bad rider is evident when you look at the horse.
That is what the OP was trying to say.
QUOTE:
_..............who ride terribly and their horses show it...._
Sadly that is seen at all levels and not just confined to novice riders at a local show.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I think it's fine to have your own opinion and your own way of doing things. 

That said, it's ALSO fine for people to have differing opinions and differing methods. To say that those people are explicitly wrong or out of line is ridiculous. Perhaps if you came at things--and presented your views--in a more amicable way, people would be more willing to listen, and less apt to be offended.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

some people build themselves up, hold up their standard as the standard, wonder why others even own horses, and tell critics that their opinion is not wanted

does not sound like the kind of open/honest communication needed to build a good relationship with any horse


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I wanted to add that "horsemanship" (to me) is taking good care of my horse. I don't think I need to drag out training for years, use specific types of tack and equipment, and not show to give my horse the best care.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

While I sort of agree with you in the fact that good horsemanship should come first, I also agree with others in their statements that not every other method is wrong, nor are upper show levels inherently bad horsemanship. I know I've had horses that I start, finish in two years and are very well trained animals by the end of it. I don't cut corners when it comes to horsemanship; however, I don't have the luxery of letting a horse be slowly broken till it's in its teens or so. I don't think either ways right or wrong, just a different perspective. I will always be striving to have better horsemanship. I will always be seeking new ways of training and riding to better myself and my mounts. That being said the wisest words I ever heard spoken were by my trainer. We typically have horses broke in two to three years. Along those years however, there is never a lack of good horsemanship. Those words were: "A horse isn't broke till the day after it dies." Just like us horses are always learning and trying to improve their 'peopleship'. 

No ways right or wrong, and no way lacks horsemanship. A lacking of horsemanship is put back onto the individual and that situation, it isn't a competitive thing or a 'they trained a horse in two years' thing. I agree with zexious in that there are MANY ways to define horsemanship, and many ways to excel at it. I think a lot of the time it's about persepctive. What I consider excellent horsemanship may not be what someone else considers good. There are thousands of ways to ride a horse and the great thing about it is that they all have their correctness.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Everything you do with a horse is training
Every time you get on your horse you're training it
That doesn't essentially mean that you're one day going to be world champion anything
It means that whatever you do makes a difference either for good or for bad
By making an effort to always try to do things for the better your horse will improve even by just a small amount.
Even if I don't want to compete any more I see nothing wrong in having the best trail horse I could possibly have - rather that than one that's barn/buddy sour, spooks and bolts and generally doesn't want to go where I point it and at the speed I ask for


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## RegularJoe (Aug 26, 2014)

Take this FWIW since I'm a complete newb where horses are concerned, but I see frequent variations on this theme at HF: 


> If you don't have the experience I have or use the approach to training horses that I use, you just shouldn't even be riding and/or you're doing it all wrong and/or you're abusing your horse.


That's how this kind of thing reads to me. I can't start out with 30 years of experience, nor do I have any way of determining if the OP's advice is any better than the recommendations of those he condemns, who are also experts. Furthermore, posting something and then saying you're not interested in hearing rebuttals is to me an admission that your viewpoint can't stand up to scrutiny.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The OP isn't criticizing novice riders (that are prepared to learn properly) or people that just want to be leisure riders. 
Like many of us he's sick of hearing people who can't be bothered to take the time to train a horse properly, the ones that are always looking for shortcuts instead of doing things slowly and thoroughly and then when they realize they have a wreck on their hands are asking if such and such severe bit or latest gadget will cure it
I find some of the responses here rather odd since every time we get a thread asking if they should use one of these 'wonder gadgets' or super fierce bits to sort out a problem there's a rush of posts telling them to go back to basics and fix the holes the right way instead of using a band aid
Oh well.............................


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

cut the OP some slack. it was "RANT" . Rants are like that; feel good when we do them, but rarely produce long term satisfaction.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^I agree with this, but one still has to be held responsible for what they've said, even if it is just a rant.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

So he was ranting about the sort of people that would rather mess up a horse or inflict pain on it than do the job properly from the 'get go'
Why is that so awful to everyone?


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^Because, in my opinion, he was including a large number of people in this "people that would rather mess up a horse or inflict pain on it than do the job properly" which (again, just in my opinion) is unfair and callous.

I see a "holier than thou" attitude in regards to--
-People showing on high enough levels to be on television
-reining
-team roping
-barrel racing
-people who take less than five years to train their horse
-people who use tie downs
-people who use Myler bits
-western pleasure
-novice riders
EDIT--This was just in the first post.

Further, he implies that a ranch horse would beat a "high end papered horse in any event." Why then, do we not see ranch horses in all events?

He also claims to "not want to hear from people who defend what [he] criticize". Unfortunately, that's how public forums work. It's fine to have an opinion, and fine to put it out there for people to see. But, it's then in turn fine for people to not agree with you, and to voice their opinions as well. 
One can still rant and not be disrespectful.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I know. Ranting has it's risks. I 've had a few that played out in my head, but I wasn't gutsy enough to post them.


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## RegularJoe (Aug 26, 2014)

jaydee said:


> So he was ranting about the sort of people that would rather mess up a horse or inflict pain on it than do the job properly from the 'get go'
> Why is that so awful to everyone?


The problem for us novices out here is that we have no idea if the OP is right or the people that say things like "bit <X> will cure problem <Y>" are right. 

Sometimes there are simple solutions to things. Sometimes there aren't. 

And I do get rants and know that this was one. Rants aren't usually trying to win converts, they're just venting. Nothing wrong with that. It's cathartic. That said, more converts are won with less aggressive tactics.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I agree with so many things that have been said here. I've owned my old gelding for a long time. He was 12 when I got him and a spoiled, tantrum throwing mess. I learned a lot about "training". Constructive round pen work, leadership skills and so on. I also found that while I was teaching him, he was teaching me. In many areas he needed a different approach than what the current clinicians were recommending. Was that wrong? No, because I experimented and found ways to teach him. And yes it was a long process. I rode him until he was 30 and we were still teaching each other something everyday. 

All that said I don't know much about Vaquero style other than some old photos I've seen and those methods don't interest me much. Are there new beliefs in the Vaquero tradition? I don't know. What I've found is that not all horses respond to all methods the same way, any more than all children learn math at the same rate.

I too get very frustrated with some of the things I see going on. But, there are good and bad people in every walk of life. Just because I don't see the point in making my horse spin a dozen times in each direction but someone else can make money doing that, then go for it. Just please take care of that horses joints. I've had a million opportunities to get my horse to "bend" around a curve or step back exactly where I tell him to, or step up on a ledge, or please don't spook while we're on the side of this ridge. Those are useful tools to me, but would never be needed in a jumping ring. However, if I tried to jump something higher than a foot, I'd probably fall off.

I guess my point is that from what I've seen, all disciplines have wonderful examples of horsemanship and horrible examples. 

And I have to achieve what I can when I can, on my timetable, no one else's.

Have I been wrong in something I've tried to do? Sure. That's how we learn. Told by someone to try something and then research finds that is only a "bandaid". It happens, but certainly doesn't make me abusive. It makes me human willing to learn something new.

And as far as bits go, my personal opinion is that all horses are different. Their mouths are different. My mare can't tolerate a simple snaffle or even a light grazing bit. Nothing but head shaking, foot stomping, bowed back misery. But, put a jointed medium port correction bit in her mouth and she's great. Or even a Little S Hack, she does well. My paint gelding could put anything in his mouth and he still rides with leg cues and body weight. They're all different and we as humans and riders need to recognize that.

Whew! That was a little more long winded than I'd planned. Kudos to anyone who actually read all of it.

I get what OP is saying about trying to cover a hole in training with a tool, but I think that he actually meant something a little broader. And it was a little insulting to some, but someone said that's what a RANT is. 

Yes it can take years to refine teachings. I don't think we - any of us - are ever "finished".


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## 4hoofbeat (Jun 27, 2013)

TessaMay said:


> Something you need to remember is that just because not everyone wants the same thing out of their horse that you do, does not make their methods or end goals necessarily wrong or yours better.
> 
> What's my end goal with a horse? What do I want to see in a horse that is "finished" or "perfect" for me?
> 
> ...


:thumbsup::clap:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think a lot of people are trying to read things into the first post that aren't there
He wasn't criticizing any of those horses that were correctly trained/ridden - just the ones that aren't
I find it hard to believe that anyone who watches competitions regularly on TV or for real hasn't at some time thought they were watching a total wreck even at high levels
I have no place for tie downs in my training at all and I know more people who think like that than the other way. If you feel the need to use them in competition and its not because there's a gaping hole in your training then that's your choice but I've seen plenty of top barrel racers win without one - maybe they were just lucky
He wasn't knocking novice riders at all - only the type of rider that thinks they can do stuff without any training or help that they can't and end up ruining a perfectly good horse as a result
That old saying 'Green on green makes black and blue sound familiar?
As for show horses - well I rode plenty at a top barn here that could do nothing more than ride the rail in either direction, take the rail away, ask them to go outside of an arena and the wheels drop off them - so yes I would also say that a well trained ranch horse would be a far better animal.
Why aren't they in the show ring?
Simple - they aren't 'fancy enough' or have the right pedigree
I can see that its tough for novices - but that's why whenever anyone here is in trouble and out of their depth with a horse there's a common cry -
'Get a good trainer'
I know we all make mistakes at times when Plan A doesn't work - there are no "Cookie Cutter' horses - but to blunder on and keep making mistakes to the point that the horse ends up so bad its on a fast track to the kill pen is unforgivable when there are people out there with the knowledge to step in and help you.


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## BreezylBeezyl (Mar 25, 2014)

sorral3 said:


> I watch some of the horse shows on tv and wonder "why does that person own a horse?" I also watch reining and wonder why do people applaud those unnatural horses? I watch team roping and barrel racing and wonder why don't they train those horses better instead of tying those horse's heads down and jerking on them.


Phew. This statement reminds me why I have such a hard time being a part of the horse community... Just knowing that people are going to judge me, for every thing that I do with my horse, is honestly terrifying to someone with little confidence.

It looks like you are passing judgement on something you aren't one hundred percent familiar with. And I mean this in the best way. I just mean that you don't know that rider and horse you are juding, and so you don't know what methods work for both of them.

Let's look at why tie downs are used. From my understanding, tie downs are not used to "tie the horse's head down" in a cruel manner. It's to give them a _place_ to put their head. It helps them stay balanced going around a tight corner or heading a cow (because moving their head too much can cause them to go off-balanced).

Another reason they might be used is on a horse who has a tendency to raise their head too high *in a particular situation*. Maybe your horse is great at bending and getting collected on the flat, but over jumps he gets excited because he loves to jump. These horses tend to be strong, both physically and in personality. While him raising his head does not impede his jumping, it poses as a safety risk to the rider - because the horse can get "strong" and uncontrollable, plus you risk taking a horse to the face. Literally. 

It's not necessarily a training fault though. Horses who love their jobs are, coincidentally, excited about their work and should be. That's personality. I wouldn't want to "train" my horses to relax to the point where they are not enthusiastic about their work. Why would I try to train a horse who has enthusiasm about what they do to tone it down? Seems counter-productive to me!

I always looked at the tie down as being used for *support*, not restriction of movement. Can it restrict movement, is attached improperly? Of course. But that can happen with any equipment you use on a horse.

It's how you use it that matters.

I think we all get to a point where we've developed a list of methods and "ways-of-doing" that work for us and we forget to _question_. We immediately jump on people instead of looking at the bigger picture. I've seen many vaqueros use cruel an inhumane methods, just as I have seen hunter jumpers and reiners do the same.

Instead of immediately putting the blame on the equipment and people involved, try to look at where the horsemanship is truly failing - _after _you have all the necessary information required to make that generalization and back it up.


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

I agree that the OP got some peoples' backs up through his phrasing and it then got blown out of proportion and people started seeing him as saying something other than what he meant. He didn't say he was a horse training god, he didn't say his way was the only right way to train a horse. There are things that he considers gimmicks that others don't. Everyone has a different opinion on what is and isn't gimmicky and there is no authority on the matter. 

I think the OP was trying to communicate a concept that most of the experienced people on this forum agree with: don't cut corners in your horse's training. He was also communicating his frustration at seeing bad horsemanship in the supposed "best" riders (those who show at high levels). If you haven't experienced the same frustration, then something is wrong.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

sorral3 said:


> I watch some of the horse shows on tv and wonder "why does that person own a horse?" I also watch reining and wonder why do people applaud those unnatural horses? I watch team roping and barrel racing and wonder why don't they train those horses better instead of tying those horse's heads down and jerking on them.


They need the tie-downs because of the jerking. Same with English riders and their martingales. I think horsemanship has gone downhill in all disciplines.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

sorral3 said:


> I watch team roping and *barrel racing* and wonder why don't they train those horses better instead of tying those horse's heads down and jerking on them.
> 
> ...
> 
> I just wanted to bring attention to the fact that I see a lot of people on TV who are supposed to represent the horse world who ride terribly and their horses show it.


Well let's get specific. 

Which professional have you see barrel racing that has rode terrible, jerked on their horses head, and tied it down with a tie down?

Please clarify who, and we can further the discussion.


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

sorral3 said:


> I watch some of the horse shows on tv and wonder "why does that person own a horse?" I also watch reining and wonder why do people applaud those unnatural horses? I watch team roping and barrel racing and wonder why don't they train those horses better instead of tying those horse's heads down and jerking on them.


For "horse shows on TV" are you talking about like the SaddleClub, etc. type shows? Where they have actors that probably have 0 horse experience acting as horse riders/owners? 

By unnatural horses in reining, please enlighten me on what you mean. Unless you mean the maneuvers? Like a sliding stop and spin? I wouldn't call those unnatural because a horse can certainly do those things on his own. 

Like someone posted before me, tie downs are used as support and not to actually keep a horse's head in place. Sometimes you'll see in barrel racing what looks like jerking but isn't. Tell me, do you see the horse's mouths gape open? 



> I try my best to follow the traditions of the Vaqueros, it can take 5-10 years to teach a horse. I work on control and partnership. I than listen to folks who talk about putting 30-60-90 days on a horse and calling them trained. What the heck happened to horsemanship? I know a lot of people are going to be mad at me for this post, but oh well. I think that as horseman, we need to insist on better quality from ourselves, our disciplines and peers. If I see another post or hear another person ask me what bit will make the horse all better I am going to scream! It does not matter what bit you use if you know what the heck you are doing. Learning to use your hands, seat, legs and weight better are what is needed. We need to look at ourselves if the horse is not what we want it to be, not the gear we are using.


 I do not have any knowledge with the "Vaqueros". Yes, it can take many years to get a really good horse that has been-there-done-that. When people talk about putting 30-60-90 days on a horse, they mean starting a foundation. Going over the basics. Now the horse may not be completely finished/trained, but he has some training and can be said is trained although he may have much more to learn. 



> I would put a good ranch horse up against a high end papered show horse in any event. I will never claim to be a cowboy or buckaroo, that would insult those who taught me. I will claim to be a horseman who doesn't know everything but will learn what I can, share what I know and try to make my horse the best she can be. I will work on my riding, ask my wife to watch me and critique my seat and hands, I will video me riding my horse to see for myself. I will read and ask questions about what I am doing, I will learn. What I won't do is blame my equipment or my horse for anything that goes wrong. I won't use gimmick gear like tie-downs and Mylar bits. I won't force my horse into unnatural frames like a peanut pushing show horse. I am a horseman and will stay true to quality horsemanship and care for and train my mare to the best of my ability.


 I take it you are not an English fan, eh? I would just _love _to see your "ranch" horse go up against a high end papered warmblood horse in an Olympic event and we'll see who wins. 

Are you saying that all cowboys/buckaroos insult people? PAH! 

Everyone is always learning, even with 50+ years of horse experience, they are still learning. It is good to ask questions and see yourself ride, and also get tips from other horse people.

Often times, your tack/equipment CAN be the problem behind some things. Take this for example: Your horse begins to develop some behavioral issues in the saddle. He bucks, doesn't listen, is always going fast, etc. What could be the problem behind that is your SADDLE (wow! A piece of equipment!). Your saddle could not fit and its hurting your horse. You get the saddle fit, a new saddle, bam! You have your old horse again.



> I don't want to hear from those who defend what I have criticized, but I do want to hear from those who would like to pledge to be better horseman, who will give the horse a chance to learn, give it time to learn and teach the horse to be an athlete. Your discipline doesn't matter. If you are trail riding, rodeoing, working cattle for a living, show jumping or dressage, it doesn't matter as long as you are committed to horsemanship.


 Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. This is a public forum and you cannot decide who can and cannot post, and what they can and cannot post. If you do not want to hear everyone's opinions, then you should not be on a public forum. 

That being said, I want to be a better horsewoman. I am still learning and will forever be learning. I will use whatever tool that will work and help my horse, whether it be a Myler bit or tie-down. If they make the horse go better and my horse is happy in them, I will use them.

Why are you singling out a certain type of bit? All bits serve their purpose. Some bits will not work on every horse and rider.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Vaqueros can produce very nice horses, if they know what they are doing. BUT, I have seen some "vaqueros" who were brutal and used that spade bit harshly. It is not the style but the application. 

And, a vaquero trained ranch horse could hardly do some things that some of those show horses do. I would be horrified if I ever saw anyone try to do dressage, eventing or jumping of any obstacle with this bit.










Training for a specific purpose take specific techniques. There IS NO one size fita all or cookie cutters that will produce a horse that can "outcompete" every horse out there regardless of discipline.


Pick you intended discipline and learn the best and most efficient methods to get the needed training. The rub is, as someone already said, is how do you know the person teaching you has all the answers?


BTW, I have nothing, at ALL, against a spade bit. I would love to have the one above hanging in my house. I do believe, however, that they are not intended for every equine application.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I think that anyone who rides should be working towards better horsemanship.

As with anything there is more than one way to skin a cat! What works for one doesn't work for another. 

To try and compare a dressage horse with a reining horse is unfair, they are different styles of riding and training. There are videos of a dressage and western order swapping horses. Those that rode western think that the dressage horse goes better for the western rider and English riders the opposite. 
Truth is that both riders do well considering that it is a different style and it goes that both horses are exceedingly well schooled to try for a different style of riding.

To try and emulate riders that train through understanding, patience and kindness cannot be a bad thing.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

beau159 said:


> Well let's get specific.
> 
> Which professional have you see barrel racing that has rode terrible, jerked on their horses head, and tied it down with a tie down?
> 
> Please clarify who, and we can further the discussion.


I could go through Youtube and find dozens of riders that would fit that description - probably a lot faster than I could find the really good ones
Unfortunately HF does not allow members to post videos or to name people in the way you are asking purely to bash them.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Roman said:


> _what looks like jerking but isn't. Tell me, do you see the horse's mouths gape open?
> _
> You'd have to be blind not to see this happening plenty of times
> 
> ...


 He wasn't attacking people that are still learning - he actually said that he is still learning himself. The secret is to do your research and learn correctly. His philosophy actually is that we should always be striving to do better and not settle for 'mediocre'
Yes tack and physical issues should always be looked at as reasons - but they should never be used as an excuse for bad behavior when they are not the cause. Too many people do that.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I could go through Youtube and find dozens of riders that would fit that description - probably a lot faster than I could find the really good ones
> Unfortunately HF does not allow members to post videos or to name people in the way you are asking purely to bash them.


Well I'm more hoping to *defend* the people that the OP is trying to bash. Hence if the OP would share what show he was watching on TV and what professionals he thought were so horrible. (or at least PM me if it can't be posted)

Maybe the OP can correct me if I am wrong, but I am somewhat highly doubting the OP has ever ridden the caliber of barrel horse he sees on TV with WPRA professionals. They are not easy to ride and no one ever makes a "perfect" run. Many uneducated eyes think the things they see in barrel racing are wrong, when really, they just don't have a clue. Now I'm not saying there aren't bad riders in barrel racing (because of course there are, like any other discipline), but you can't knock on something that _you've never done_ nor understand.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

What I know about barrel racing could be written on a postage stamp with a felt tipped pen! 

I can see nothing wrong with this video - then watch the best and it is unlikely you will.






Then watch the wannabes and it is a different matter!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

jaydee--I am just explaining the way that I read OP's posts. To me, they came across as rude and disrespectful. Apparently, they came across that way to others, too. You're fine to defend him if you feel so inclined, but it's also ok for me to disagree c:

Ultimately, we can't know what OP really meant as, for whatever reason, he is no long posting


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't think the OP is bashing any specific discipline or person, but rather those who don't have time to learn properly or teach the horses. Short cuts everywhere, gimmicks and harsher bits to make up for lack of training, or better, basic training, copying something without knowing why and how. There are good and bad people in every discipline, but unfortunately the horse has been included in our throw away society of today. That's where the big money is. 
As for the vaquero/californio style of training, yes, it takes a long time, about as long as it takes to produce a GP dressage horse. The finesse of a finished horse is the same just with a different goal. Very few understand the double bridle, and even less the spade bit.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Zexious said:


> jaydee--I am just explaining the way that I read OP's posts. To me, they came across as rude and disrespectful. Apparently, they came across that way to others, too. You're fine to defend him if you feel so inclined, but it's also ok for me to disagree c:
> 
> Ultimately, we can't know what OP really meant as, for whatever reason, he is no long posting


I'm defending his right to rant about the sort of people who use shortcuts in their training which leave big holes for someone else to fill. The sort of people who immediately resort to gadgets, spurs and harsher and harsher bits instead of going back to basics, the sort of people who are totally over horsed or out of their depth in a competition, the sort of people who think that a plan for breaking and training a horse is 'just winging it', the sort of people who immediately want to blame the horse or their tack when things go wrong and never look to themselves first
When I was a child/teenager in the UK you could go to a sale or a dealer and buy a cheap pony or horse and know it would be OK because it had been broken and trained in the slow traditional way. Now it seems that finding a reliable genuine horse is getting harder and harder
So what is going wrong?
I'm afraid that I also find it hard not to be rude and disrespectful to the sort of people that are sending perfectly good horses to slaughter yards for the sake of doing the job properly
But if you think that's OK then you are entitled to your opinion


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Roman said:


> For "horse shows on TV" are you talking about like the SaddleClub, etc. type shows? Where they have actors that probably have 0 horse experience acting as horse riders/owners?
> 
> I think the OP is probably three times your age and it's not likely he is watching " SaddleClub", since it's a teen or tween level audience show.
> 
> ...



yes, a double fold barbed wire twist bit can serve its' purpose, that is true. do you want that purpose, though.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Subbing
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I can tell you what is going wrong - at least in the UK.

Going back to my youth only the very wealthy or farmers children actually owned their own ponies so most learned to rode at a riding school.

Majority of the instructors were of the army school. They had either been in the army or taught by someone who had. This meant there was a lot of discipline, concentration was on the seat, balance and confidence, position followed. Majority of work was done at a sitting trot. 
So it was. 
Then there came the time when there was more money so, rather than pay out for lessons more and more parents bought ponies for their children and looked after them themselves.
Parents who had ridden as children taught them to a certain standard but there was not the group competition of a class ride.
These children grew up and started teaching and or training horses when they hadn't the experience of working with youngsters or of riding a lot of different animals. 

When they were not getting the results with what they knew they resorted to gadgets which had always been around and used by experienced trainers who taught their trainees when and how to use them correctly. 

Then along comes 'natural horsemanship' which many interpret as being so nice and kind to the horse that they are never corrected. 

I am of the old school, I work with what I was taught and learned along the way, many would say it is old fashioned but I have yet to find a better way of either starting youngsters or teaching novices.


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## Rebelwithacause (Aug 7, 2013)

This is interesting perspective. As a novice rider (which, to clarify, I'm _not_ saying the OP was/is targeting), the discussion of other people watching and critiquing is something I have had to come to terms with.

In regards to people on Youtube or on TV who are supposed "professionals". I see professionals on TV all day who muck up the job, ya know? Professional singers flubbing their own songs, professional athletes that have terrible games, professional thespians who say/do something screwy and it's caught on camera. Professional makeup or hair stylist on Youtube that burn off half of their hair!

I think we all need to learn to be a little more gracious when it comes to judging someone else. It could have been an "off" day or performance, they could be new to the discipline or they could still be newly learning, or-- in probably the very last category--- they just don't care and aren't interested in their horse. 

Many of you have been around horses way longer than I, but everyone I meet--- here and in life, the _horse_ is the priority. Many of us (me, especially) are learning as we go, taking in bits and pieces of information from all directions and ya know what-- some of the things I learned may not sit well with you! Just like some of the things you do might not sit well with me. So, a grain of understanding and a whole lot of humility will get you far in life, in my experience.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

deserthorsewoman--But very specific examples were used in the first post. How is that not targeting specific disciplines or individuals?

jaydee--You seem to be missing my point.

I don't have an issue with someone ranting--regardless of what their intention, goal, or the subject matter is. That's absolutely their right on a public forum.
I am saying that, when you open up that discussion, there will be people that disagree with you. And, in the same way that his opinion was presented, it's alright for people to vocally disagree. 

Furthermore, I agree that there are issues with training and "horsemanship." That said, there is more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. OP seems to have a very narrow definition of horsemanship, and (according to the first post) that doesn't include very many people, even on this forum.
OP was very specific (particularly in the first post) about whom he thought his own horsemanship skills less than.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Humility is a quality to admire
I still struggle to not get irritated or downright angry when I see people abuse horses or ponies for things that aren't their fault and all down to lack of good training
Knowing that you're being scrutinized when you go into a show ring is all part of the game and something you have to learn to deal with early on if you're going to keep it up
Of course even the best can get it wrong sometimes but its easy to spot the ones that have the occasional hiccup with the one's that are consistently awful and obviously reliant on a very obliging and well trained (by someone else) horse to keep them out of trouble
We were at a big show two years ago - international riders and some intimidating fences so not for the novice rider and yet half way in every single one was coming at the first fence from the wrong direction to be on the right leg for the second fence that came on them really fast so they were knocking it down - then in comes Beezie Madden and shows them how to do it properly and from then on they all took the same route as her


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## Roman (Jun 13, 2014)

sorral3 said:


> I will never claim to be a cowboy or buckaroo, that would insult those who taught me.





tinyliny said:


> Are you saying that all cowboys/buckaroos insult people? PAH!
> where did the OP ever say that?


There ya go.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Roman said:


> tinyliny said:
> 
> 
> > Are you saying that all cowboys/buckaroos insult people? PAH!
> ...


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## TessaMay (Jul 26, 2013)

Roman said:


> There ya go.


You're misunderstanding the sentence. He's not saying being a cowboy/buckaroo means he would insult people, it means those who taught him would be offended by him associating that name with himself because he isn't qualified. 

Edit: Posted before seeing the above post saying the same thing


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

beau159 said:


> What make's Mylar bits a "gimmick"?


I also asked this question (before the thread got closed and re-opened) because the OP said Mylar bits were gimmicks. 

I am truly interested in why the OP thinks Mylar bits are a gimmick, although the OP hasn't responded. (and maybe won't)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I gave up reading aLL


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Maybe because people were able to do a great job of training horses before they designed the Myler bits?
A lot of these things come on the market and become the 'must have' - but really they aren't most of the time and sooner or later another 'must have' comes along that's even better.
They seem OK but they aren't sprinkled with magical fairy dust and won't replace basic good training skills


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

TessaMay said:


> You're misunderstanding the sentence. He's not saying being a cowboy/buckaroo means he would insult people, it means those who taught him would be offended by him associating that name with himself because he isn't qualified.
> 
> Edit: Posted before seeing the above post saying the same thing



yep. you misunderstood, Roman.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

jaydee said:


> sort of people that are sending perfectly good horses to slaughter yards for the sake of doing the job properly
> But if you think that's OK then you are entitled to your opinion


WOW

*NOWHERE* did she say anything like this. That was pretty strong, don't you think?

He specifically called out specific disciplines and called them out, in a way. Of course most of us believe in taking the time to train correctly. It was the dismissive *TONE* of his post that many were taking exception with.

Why is that so discounted?

Your posting the good and the bad could go with any discipline, including the vaqueros. There, sadly, will always be the shortcutters. Just be careful in rants not to act like you are including everyone who isn't only working for a "well trained ranch horse".


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

jaydee said:


> yet half way in every single one was coming at the first fence from the wrong direction to be on the right leg for the second fence that came on them really fast so they were knocking it down - then in comes Beezie Madden and shows them how to do it properly and from then on they all took the same route as her


That's learning by example. I've never had a lesson, but I try to pick the people who's horses are behaving well and have a good relationship and just try to do what they do.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

but that is the nature of a "rant". you get to blow off steam, and you aren't going to be perfectly without some "tone" to your post. if we've had the experience of ranting, we know that we can get a bit crabby or snippy. you have never?

of course it miffed others, and they answered, but come on people, it's a RANT, not a dissertation.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Unfortunately every time a horse gets poorly trained in a way that leaves it reliant on artificial aids that eventually will fail to work because they find a way to avoid them it does become a candidate for the slaughter yard. Occasionally a good trainer will pick them up and sort them out if they're worth it - but the average run of the mill horse isn't. No one really wants them. The horse world seem to be overflowing with problem horses.
He picked out the disciplines he's familiar with - if I'd written that post I would have picked out show jumping, eventing or dressage - but the thinking behind it would have been exactly the same
How do the threads on using Rolkurr to improve my horse go?
How do the ones on 'Can I get my horse collected by strapping its head in with 'whatever is the gadget of the week' go?
Having a discussion on the tone of his post would IMO just become a pointless 'bash the OP thread' with no informative value at all
It seems to me that if anyone disagrees with him and feels that using shortcuts to replace good training methods is the way to go and that there are no bad riders in any form of competition then they should just ignore the thread and move on to another one.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

beau159 said:


> I also asked this question (before the thread got closed and re-opened) because the OP said Mylar bits were gimmicks.
> 
> I am truly interested in why the OP thinks Mylar bits are a gimmick, although the OP hasn't responded. (and maybe won't)


I agree that the comment on Mylar bits bothered me. While I really personally dislike the combination bits, they make wonderful "comfort" snaffles.












They make a baucher bit I would love to have!!

THIS is just one reason I disliked the original post.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Blue said:


> That's learning by example. I've never had a lesson, but I try to pick the people who's horses are behaving well and have a good relationship and just try to do what they do.


Yes but at that level of showjumping you shouldn't need to be learning something so basic from example - they are the sort of things a young pony club rider would be taught. 
It costs a small fortune to enter and travel to these shows and then you blow away the chance of a big prize because you can't figure out something as simple as being on the right leg.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

jaydee said:


> Yes but at that level of showjumping you shouldn't need to be learning something so basic from example - they are the sort of things a young pony club rider would be taught.
> It costs a small fortune to enter and travel to these shows and then you blow away the chance of a big prize because you can't figure out something as simple as being on the right leg.


But, he implied that people at that level were no better. Nowhere did I see him say that there were some riders at that level who were wonderful. It was more of "do it my way or you are wrong" kinda rant.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We actually bought one of those Myler snaffles because I wanted the ordinary french link DH was using back on my son's horse. 
I can't say that the mare went any differently in it at all - though she isn't a problem anyway. So while I can't see anything much wrong with them for the money they cost they aren't anything special either.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

_sprinkled with magical fairy dust 
_O my gosh, how awesome would it be to order little velvet bags of this on Amazon! I need that! I would sprinkle it on all my headstalls for better minds and on my saddle seat so I stick! 

:hide:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Fullseat breeches are all the magical fairy dust you need for sticking to your saddle! :wink:


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

jaydee said:


> Yes but at that level of showjumping you shouldn't need to be learning something so basic from example - they are the sort of things a young pony club rider would be taught.
> It costs a small fortune to enter and travel to these shows and then you blow away the chance of a big prize because you can't figure out something as simple as being on the right leg.


Absolutely agree! They _shouldn't,_ but they _do_ don't they.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Blue said:


> _sprinkled with magical fairy dust
> _O my gosh, how awesome would it be to order little velvet bags of this on Amazon! I need that! I would sprinkle it on all my headstalls for better minds and on my saddle seat so I stick!
> 
> :hide:


But all of these 'must haves' come with that bag of fairy dust - hidden in the charge of course so its not free
And you read the blurb and think - well if 'joe/jill Blogg' who's endorsing it uses one then it must be wonderful because he/she's so amazing and their horses go so well
Look - I was the young person who rushed out and bought a Grackle noseband so my horse would perform just like Tigre (well she was grey) 
Of course it made no difference to her at all - show jumping was never going to be her thing whatever piece of tack I hung on her!!!


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> Yes but at that level of showjumping you shouldn't need to be learning something so basic from example - they are the sort of things a young pony club rider would be taught.
> It costs a small fortune to enter and travel to these shows and then you blow away the chance of a big prize because you can't figure out something as simple as being on the right leg.


I remember when you posted about going to Old Salem to watch. What you might not know is that Old Salem is often used as a move up horse show for many people that are entering the Grand Prix ranks. It is a deceptively hilly field to ride and the course designers like to set the jumps to take advantage of the hills. There are very few fields like Old Salem's on the East Coast. 

If someone is new at the GP level, has not ridden Old Salem's field, the course is difficult, perhaps the riders did need to see that a different approach than they walked worked better. Courses do not always ride the way courses walk. Riders watch the other riders before them all of the time and then adjust their rides accordingly if necessary.

Even if the horse show you mentioned is not Old Salem, it would be the same. Courses do not always ride the same as they walk and riders watch the riders go before them. That is one of the advantages to going late in a class.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

jaydee said:


> We actually bought one of those Myler snaffles because I wanted the ordinary french link DH was using back on my son's horse.
> I can't say that the mare went any differently in it at all - though she isn't a problem anyway. So while I can't see anything much wrong with them for the money they cost they aren't anything special either.


No one said that they were "special". HE said that they were a "gimmick". Anything but. I might have agreed if he had zeroed in on the combination bits, which I detest, personally.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Allison Finch said:


> No one said that they were "special". HE said that they were a "gimmick". Anything but. I might have agreed if he had zeroed in on the combination bits, which I detest, personally.


I'm sorry I'm dense. Not up on all the new bits. What is a "combination bit"?

I just use what works for my horses, but I only trail ride.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

I read your statement and while I can appreciate your passion, I believe your views on other elements of horsemanship (and other disciplines) are misguided to the point of being stereotypical. 

Different disciplines value different things, and different people want to do different things with horses. I myself cannot see taking 10 years to train a horse. Even the Spanish Riding School horses are broken to ride by the time they are 6 years old (and their “formal” training does not formally begin until they are 4 years old), and their entire lives from birth to death are scripted through a program that is even older than the Vaquero tradition by many hundreds of years. They are bred to perform in a perfect partnership with human desires, and the humans themselves live and breathe the horse’s life in an almost symbiotic relationship. 

There is no 100% right way to train a horse- we are attempting to translate human wants and needs into equine standards of behavior, and there is a huge language barrier there that anyone who cares about horsemanship struggles to overcome for their entire horse-handling lives. A “gimmick” to me, is a tool which does not work. A Mylar bit can be someone’s solution to a problem they are having, just like a Bitless bridle, a sidepull, a different kind of stirrup, a different saddle, or a different kind of horse might be someone else’s solution. This does not make them gimmicks – and frankly the word “gimmick” is throwing the baby out with the bathwater insofar as tools are concerned. 

Let’s look at it in a different context – Art, for instance. For most of us on this forum, equines and equestrianism is our passion and our art form. But, our art takes different shapes and forms, just as you don’t see all exact paintings in a gallery in all the same style- or sometimes, no paintings at all. You may consider yourself Picasso, but you cannot forever be screaming at everyone else who is just beginning to finger-paint, or tell a sculptor he is a horrible, stupid person because he prefers marble over brass. You cannot look at the Rembrandts, Ruebens, and DaVinci’s of the horse world and tell them they’re idiots because they found success a different way than you did. For one, it removes the joy of learning and introduces a lot of negativity into someone else’s relationship with horses- and that’s just not fair to someone who is just starting out. We are a community and we learn from each other – so I think those who are experienced owe it to the “new” generation to be patient with them while they do their own learning. 

Not everyone values the same ideals in the horse world, and you can’t make them. You’re better off screaming at the sun to go dark and the ocean to go dry. 

It might be better to examine your own reactions about why you get so angry about what other people value. Is it because you believe it’s cruel to the horse? Preserves their health or their mental integrity? Somehow honors their spirit more than another way of doing things? Feel like people don’t work as hard as you do to achieve the same result? View it as preserving a way of life that took the horse’s nature more into account? 

It is never as simple as “You’re doing it wrong and you’re stupid”.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Are full seat breeches allowed in this perfect, gimmick-free world? 'Cause I NEED them. with or without fairy dust on them.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

A couple of weekends back I my daughter and I took our green horses out for their first extended off property trail ride with 11 other horse-rider teams through un managed trails. We both rode in a bosal and mecate, the usual head gear they ride in.

The two horses did very well for their first time out away from home for so long. Mine had some issues with everyone moving too slowly for his tastes and a bunch of new horses he had never met and periodically would try to get to the lead (he is the alpha in our herd).

By many ways of thinking, after the first hour I would have been told by all to dump the bosal and the mecate and get him at least into a snaffle bit for trails next time. I may have been told to get me some spurs. I would have struggled through the three hour ride and cursed at myself for riding in a bosal and probably punished my horse in frustration the whole time. Some people would solve the issue by simply insisting that the horse must be in the lead.

In the Vaquero method it is an indicator that he and I BOTH need more training as a team. It would be approached as a rider-horse, partnership-training issue.

I asked him to go against his instincts to lead and he gave me some push back until we came to an understanding that I, not his instincts, was going to be the one calling the shots regardless of where or who we were with. Every time he would speed up, I would slow him down. Eventually, I was feeling him thinking about it and cut it off at the foot lift for the first quickened step. He gave up very quickly once I got the timing right. It was a small but very important lesson for both of us to learn. 

It could have turned out that we did need to go to a bit, but instead we were able to work through it and I learned something about myself and my horse in the process. 

If I had been back at the barn and simply changed to the bit for an immediate solution, we both would have missed that lesson entirely and never would have known we missed it until there was a bigger problem. 

I think sometimes we look to the quick fix, never realizing that in the process we are missing a lot of valuable learning along the way.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

updownrider said:


> I remember when you posted about going to Old Salem to watch.


Yes it was Old Salem - we go there quite a lot - and it wasn't a novice class and most if not all of the riders are 'regulars' there.
It was actually very easy to see which was the best way to approach the first fence to automatically be on the right stride for the second one. 
I would forgive a novice rider for getting it wrong but not those guys at that level. You can't afford to make silly mistakes like that when the stakes are so high.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> I would forgive a novice rider for getting it wrong but not those guys at that level. You can't afford to make silly mistakes like that when the stakes are so high.


Did something happen to the horses and riders that made unaffordable mistakes that I am unaware of? I'm pretty sure I watched the Grand Prix at Old Salem (both weeks) and I do not remember anything terrible happening.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Blue said:


> I'm sorry I'm dense. Not up on all the new bits. What is a "combination bit"?
> 
> I just use what works for my horses, but I only trail ride.


This is a combination bit. The Mylar is one of the less tough ones. They combine several different actions on the horse...poll pressure, bosal nerve pressure and mouth bar pressure all at once.

Mylar










Some of the "other" tougher combination bits.




















How they are used.










I know these are primarily used in barrel racing and that these horses can be barely in control and hot. But I consider that less than ideal training. I know of some very successful barrel horses that will walk calmly to the chute, do their run, and walk calmly away. And these horses win.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I really did not read all of the replies, and I also have no disagreement that there is good and bad horsemanship in all disciplines and all levels of showing and training.
I could go on a rant too, of poor horsemanship that I see, and believe me, some of those horses have been trained in the Vaquero way
There is not THE GOLDEN standard of Vaquero training, and then all other training falling into poor horsemanship, with the assumption made, that if you did not use the Vaquero tradition, then your horses must be less trained in the end, ridden without finesse, controlled by bits, rather than the horse having learned correct response, and advanced to that curb, through a system of training that differs somewhat from Vaquero training, but in the end has equal finesse, with that horse not ridden on just light contact, but no contact at all
I don't even own a tie down, don;t use draw reins and ride my young horses for two years in a snaffle.
I then use a short shanked, loose jawed curb-a bit that did not exist in Vaquero days. Eventually, by horse is ridden in a curb, , on a loose rein, off of seat and legs
I don't need several pounds of iron in the mouth of my horse, as a Finished horse, so that in the end I have the 'signal and lightness-I get that in a plain curb
I have ridden numerous green horses out in the mountains for the first time, using a plain snaffle. If my horse goes a long on loose reins, what the heck is the difference?
We have better bred horses today, that learn faster, we have transitional bits, before that horse is up in a solid ported curb,.
Again, bring your Vaquero trained horse, ride any mountain miles with me, drop that bridle and do a series of straight line lead changes, and then maybe your view will not be so bigoted 
Sure, you are going to see horses pushed in the showring, If you knew anything about rules, you would realize tiedowns are only used in roping and games, and not even legal in judged events
I am not defending either games or roping, but roping against the clock is a heck of a lot different then being able to give the horse for time to set up for that stop Those rope horses are jerked into a stop, not because of lack or training, but because that quick burst of speed and sudden stop in a few seconds, does not allow fro setting the horse up for that stop
I love that the people that don't show, are the quickest to criticize, while they are no different then all the people in Biblical times, that cried' not me, until put to the test
It is therefore the people that actually show, yet remain true to the horse, that I truly admire, as they like Job, 'walked the talk"
Just tooling around the ranch, does not mean anything, and rather ridiculous to then use show horses that have been pushed to the max (owners want results )to validate that only good trianing ,w estern, has to havE thaT vAQUERO ATTACHED TO IT
tHERE WAS ALSO NO DENTAL WORK DONE IN THE DAYS OF gLORY (Vaqueros).
There also were no transition bits, thus the need for the two reins, as you certainly could never go straight from a bosal to a bit like a Spade, or a Mona Lisa or a Half BREED.
Just perhaps, due to better horses, more choice in a gradual bit progression, the double rein stage has become redundant
I have finger tip control on my finished horses, and I don't need a Spade for the horse to respond to the same light signal
In fact, anyone com,es to ride our horses, and I;m not sure about their hands, the horse gets a snaffle, regardless of what bit I usually ride him in.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> A couple of weekends back I my daughter and I took our green horses out for their first extended off property trail ride with 11 other horse-rider teams through un managed trails. We both rode in a bosal and mecate, the usual head gear they ride in.
> 
> The two horses did very well for their first time out away from home for so long. Mine had some issues with everyone moving too slowly for his tastes and a bunch of new horses he had never met and periodically would try to get to the lead (he is the alpha in our herd).
> 
> ...


Yes, one always should fix holes in training, but my horses would 'laugh' , at that being a test of a first real trail ride.
Our horses go in the mountains for that, crossing fast flowing rivers, perhaps running into elk, walking along sheer drop offs, and know what, they just have good training, no Vaquero label needed!


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Smilie, not all of us "non snow people" are slamming show methods. If I had been able to start younger and with different horses I probably would know all abut what's required. But I wasn't and didn't and don't; I trail ride with maybe the occasional trail competition (which I've won the ones I entered). What I'm saying is that I wish more of the "professional show" people of any discipline would consider their horse and take care of their health. I'm sure that you do, but we all know people that use horrific methods to achieve 8 or 9 minutes of excellence. Then discard the animal when they can no longer perform.

Sorry, it's late, I'm tired and distracted with lots to do before the sun goes down.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I guess we each ride what we have access to. I had a child with me as well on a green horse so cliffs and raging rivers were out for the day. 

They did pretty well when the Jackrabbits being chased by a baying pack of beagles came running out of the brush and through their legs or when we came across the rotting carcass of a deer in the middle of the trail surrounded by a bunch of none too happy vultures (we have mountain lions here too). Ride what you have. 

I really don't know why many are becoming so defensive. People train differently and it is no skin off my nose one way or the other. Nowhere in there did I say somehow it was superior or the only way. I pointed out where I have found value in some of the methods. Feel free to take it or leave it.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I guess we each ride what we have access to. I had a child with me as well on a green horse so cliffs and raging rivers were out for the day.
> 
> They did pretty well when the Jackrabbits being chased by a baying pack of beagles came running out of the brush and through their legs or when we came across the rotting carcass of a deer in the middle of the trail surrounded by a bunch of none too happy vultures (we have mountain lions here too). Ride what you have.
> 
> I really don't know why many are becoming so defensive. People train differently and it is no skin off my nose one way or the other. Nowhere in there did I say somehow it was superior or the only way. I pointed out where I have found value in some of the methods. Feel free to take it or leave it.



Gee, I feel accomplished to ride on manicured, non-motorized vehicles allowed trails with an occasional polite coyote


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> Gee, I feel accomplished to ride on manicured, non-motorized vehicles allowed trails with an occasional polite coyote



^^as you should Tiny.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

updownrider said:


> Did something happen to the horses and riders that made unaffordable mistakes that I am unaware of? I'm pretty sure I watched the Grand Prix at Old Salem (both weeks) and I do not remember anything terrible happening.


No nothing terrible happened - they just blew their chances of being in the prize money because getting that second fence wrong had a knock on for the next ones. 
I used to ride horses for people including the person I worked for and not at that level but how they performed reflected my riding and their sale value because a horse that's winning is worth more than one that isn't so owners would have been really annoyed with me if I'd made a fundamental mistake like that and had a fence(s) down as a result.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BY the OP:
try my best to follow the traditions of the Vaqueros, it can take 5-10 years to teach a horse. I work on control and partnership. I than listen to folks who talk about putting 30-60-90 days on a horse and calling them trained. What the heck happened to horsemanship? I know a lot of people are going to be mad at me for this post, but oh well. I think that as horseman, we need to insist on better quality from ourselves, our disciplines and peers. If I see another post or hear another person ask me what bit will make the horse all better I am going to scream! It does not matter what bit you use if you know what the heck you are doing. Learning to use your hands, seat, legs and weight better are what is needed. We need to look at ourselves if the horse is not what we want it to be, not the gear we are using. 


What we have is , I , I , I. and the rest of horsemanship, by God is missing
I know of people that send out horses to be started fro 30, 60 days or even longer, but I know of no one that then considers that horse 'finished.
When I am riding my horse on a loose rein, off of seat and legs, I guess I am also riding through education of that horse's entire body and not off of my hands
I ride my junior horses at least for two years in a plain snaffle, heck, I might even ride them in a bosal at times
Why applaud those reiners? Because they are performing at a high degree of athletic ability, and the good ones, on a loose rein
I think If I hear that term 'peanut roller once more, by someone who has no idea of western pl standards today, I am going to scream!
The showring does not always apply to outside of the showring, strictly far as practicality. The showring, esp at upper end, demonstrates degree of difficulty
I know some dam good horsemen, and they all don't wear flat hats, on top of fat heads!
Good horsemanship is good horsemanship. It does not have the label 'Natural, traditional or Vaquero. Bad horsemanship trancends all of those labels, including Vaquero.
I don't need nor want two lbs of iron in the mouth of my horse when he is 'finished, as my horse is able to 'listen to that whisper, just as well, with a simple curb'


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

jaydee said:


> No nothing terrible happened - they just blew their chances of being in the prize money because getting that second fence wrong had a knock on for the next ones.
> I used to ride horses for people including the person I worked for and not at that level but how they performed reflected my riding and their sale value because a horse that's winning is worth more than one that isn't so owners would have been really annoyed with me if I'd made a fundamental mistake like that and had a fence(s) down as a result.


Your expectation of riders at that level are impossible.

If an owner expected their horse to win a prize in every Grand Prix, then they are in the wrong business. I do not know any rider that would accept the ride from an owner that would make that demand. Even Beezie does not place in every class or Grand Prix because she is human and makes mistakes.


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## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

I feel like no matter the discipline you will always have "those" people. AS A barrel racer I absolutely can not stand when people jerk their horses around in huge bits, while there horse is resisting, and meanwhile they cant even stay in their saddle because they are kicking so hard. It drives me nuts BUT what I do like it seeing a well balanced team that has taken the time and training and has a calm horse walk in do it's job with out being jerked around and kicked to death and be able to calmly walk out. I love seeing a horse that truly loves their job and a team that works together. You will always have the people that pull their horses head around and barely make it around the barrel because their horse has no training. All their horse know is speed and to go faster and get away from the pain. All I ask is that you don't categorize every one with the bad people. You can pick out bad people in every discipline but you can also pick out the good ones who truly love their sport too.

Heck I was at a barrel race last summer and I saw a lady who's horse seemed like it wasn't having a very good time in the ring. It looked scared. (though I have to say the lady had very quiet hands and handled everything extremely well.) Later when the girl riding the horse came to sit with her friends, the people behind me, to discus her run I overheard that the horse was completely blind in its left eye and she took on the horse to give it a chance because the previous owners where going to put it down. She said she would give it a little while to see if barrel racing was its thing, if not she would trail ride with it. She had put training and time in to the horse and had done a lot of slow work at home and it was one of the horses first shows and he was still getting used to everything. The horse did end up calming down more and adjusted well. Ill be curious to see if they come back this summer. BUT at this same race I saw a snobby teenager (who I have seen ride more than once who does not handle her horses well and is very rough with them) hit her horse multiple times on the head because he wouldn't walk in to the arena.... Now if it were me that would not be my choice of action. It looked like that horse had been more than soured by her owner and was done with barrel racing altogether. 


My point is that there are good and bad in every discipline and to lump everyone together is not fair.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Casey, I have been to some trail competitions where if I rider was seen treating their horse like that, they would not only be sent packing, but word would get around pretty quick in our little town. Our trail comps are based on partnership, not ownership.


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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

Oh boy, I have been having fun reading all the responses. 

Like some have said, I put up a rant. I was watching shows I had on my DVR. I watched a low level rodeo, seeing barrel racers jerking on horses faces with more force than I would use to swing a hammer. Names of the riders, who knows they were not that important to me at the time. Then I watched a show from July Goodnight, The Horse Master, and I swear to God she has to shove a Mylar Bit into every horse's mouth claiming it is going to fix this or that. She even had an episode with the founder of the company and together they went over how their bits would fix the issues. I actually refer to her as "The Bit Master" haha. The bits are fine, well constructed, my problem is with how they market them as the cure for the common horse. 

Now, on to the Vaquero training...Smilie...You seem to have the need to defend yourself as a good trainer who doesn't follow the traditions I do...Good for you. I never said everyone had to. I only pointed out that I study this method and am continually studying. One trainer I watch and read for pointers is in no way a Vaquero, Chris Cox. I am only pointing out that many people, pro and amateur are all too satisfied with shortcuts. 

Tiedowns...I would never use one! I have never seen a need for one on a properly trained horse (western that is, I do not participate in any English riding and have no basis to judge). I know that roping horses don't need them, barrel horses don't need them. It is (in my opinion) a crutch for poor training. Hate me for the statement or not, it is an opinion. 

30, 60, 90 days....again, in my opinion, a good start but in no way a trained horse. A good foundation can be obtained in a couple months, but for a horse to truly work harmoniously with a rider, it takes time. The rider must also take time to learn and grow harmonious with the animal. 

Am I against trying new tack to find a better FIT for the horse, no. Not every bit fits a mouth perfect. Some horses have lower pallets, larger tongues. Not every Vaquero horse can carry a spade bit. But no matter what I put in a horse's mouth, they must learn to respond to my cues as long as they are reasonable and humane. A little tongue pressure will not be a reason I allow head tossing (as an example). A bit will not make my horse stop better consistently, we as horseman must learn to train the animal. 

I respect all disciplines. I watch Dressage videos to help me understand my seat and collection, does this mean I am going to buy a set of breaches and a top hat....NO. But I am going to respect the training and commitment to good horsemanship. 

I also would NEVER tell anyone but my own kids that they can not use a piece of equipment, but would like to challenge them to understand why they should or should not use it. Have I used a snaffle bit on my horse, yes, is it part of the Vaquero tradition, no. I had a reason at the time and did what I thought was best for my horse, but I knew why and how I was going to change. 

Please, don't think I am attacking anyone or a style. I am just trying to call attention to Horsemanship. Not everyone has a hands on mentor to learn from, not everyone wants to compete, but having a horse is a responsibility. This forum is a great way to learn, videos, lessons, all great resources. I just want to challenge anyone who reads this to think about their own horsemanship and how you can improve. 

Good luck


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

sorral3, that was so much better said!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Julie Goodnight has some good info and good videos. But, she likely HAS to promote certain items as a part of having sponsors. trainers who work publickly like that have to make compromises. it least she isn't like Clinton Anderson, who is so slick about promoting gear it will make a person gag within 10 seconds of cliking on one of his videos.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Sorral, had that been your initial post instead of the impression you gave of strutting in and proceeding to 'educate' the rest of us, the replies would have been VERY different. 

Each discipline has its shames. None are exempt. Each of us has to decide whether we want a responsive, willing partner, or use shortcuts. For some, they have no 'feel' for the animal and think gimmicks will fix that blindness. For others, they simply see horses as a means to an end and treat them accordingly. For yet another group, they simply don't know what they don't know, but have a desire to learn.

While I don't agree that you need to take years to train, I do believe the longer a horse/human pair is together the more refined and in tune with each other they become. Not all of that rapport comes from saddle time, either. Quite a bit of it is just being around each other and learning to read and understand one another.

I ride English. Always have, always will. Even as a rank noob, I never used tie downs or any other dubious 'fix'. Heck, I even changed disciplines for my horse when I found he hated the show ring. I loved the horse more than I cared about chasing ribbons, so we became trail riders. He was happiest doing that, so I hung up the patent leather bridle and fedora, and spent many happy years riding all over the countryside.

I also believe that you fit the bit to the horse, not expect every horse to just accept and be happy in whatever you put in their mouth. My TB goes best in a full cheek low port correction bit. To me it doesn't look comfortable, but it's made all the difference in his attitude. My Arab goes best in a D ring French link. The horse I mentioned above was happiest in a loose ring single jointed snaffle. There simply is no 'one type fits all', and if we listen to what the horse is telling us we'll all be happier. 

I've had horses for 37 years, and I'm still learning. I do know that if we don't listen to our partners when they're trying to tell us something, it can result in injuries and a very soured, rank animal.

So yes, what you would like to see from all horse people, I've already had in practice for many years. I'm much more forgiving of noobs than I am of experienced folks who are deliberately callous and uncaring, and merely want to dominate the animal and force them to do what may not be best.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I agree that if THIS had been Sorral's OP, then he would have had a FAR different reaction from everyone. There is nothing that I disagree with, including the tone, with this latest post.

See how easy it was to sit back, ruminate and then post? LOL!! Rants are rarely a good idea and will often only bring trouble. I have found that to be true in my own rants.....But that's another story.......


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

Blue said:


> _sprinkled with magical fairy dust _
> O my gosh, how awesome would it be to order little velvet bags of this on Amazon! I need that! I would sprinkle it on all my headstalls for better minds and on my saddle seat so I stick!
> 
> :hide:


 
50/50 glitter and talcum powder

my wife says if i just carry glitter with me and throw some in the air when we start arguing -- i can just walk away as she stands mesmerized by the sparkles


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Shiny things enthrall us, jmike. That's probably why we like diamonds so much. :wink:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Shiny things enthrall us, jmike. That's probably why we like diamonds so much.



:clap::clap::clap:


YES!! More diamonds, please!


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

And rubies and emeralds and sapphires too!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Luckily these are classified as BLING, and not gimmicks!





























Yeah, not my taste, at all. BUT, if they were real stones, I could sell them and buy a couple of new horses!!





This browband, however, I night consider.......


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

sorral3 said:


> Like some have said, I put up a rant. I was watching shows I had on my DVR. I watched a *low level rodeo*, seeing barrel racers jerking on horses faces with more force than I would use to swing a hammer. Names of the riders, who knows they were not that important to me at the time.


I bolded the important part. 

You are going to see all sorts of people come out of the woodworks at a low local level rodeo .... good and bad (sometimes more bad).

Here? Not so much. 









sorral3 said:


> Then I watched a show from July Goodnight, The Horse Master, and I swear to God she has to shove a Mylar Bit into every horse's mouth claiming it is going to fix this or that. She even had an episode with the founder of the company and together they went over how their bits would fix the issues. I actually refer to her as "The Bit Master" haha. The bits are fine, well constructed, my problem is with how they market them as the cure for the common horse.


*shrugs*

If they work for her, why not? Every trainer has their "favorite" bits that seem to help with most issues.

Julie also really focuses on HOW to properly cue your horse, ride your horse, use the bit effectively, and overall good training. She doesn't slap the bit on a horse and send them down the road. She works on everything else that should be worked on; not just the bit change. Therefore I don't see it as a gimmick, because she is also addressing all the other angles. 

It's a TV show. They don't get put on the air for free. It's a business. Of course they have to make money to continue. 



sorral3 said:


> Tiedowns...I would never use one! I have never seen a need for one on a properly trained horse (western that is, I do not participate in any English riding and have no basis to judge). I know that roping horses don't need them, barrel horses don't need them. It is (in my opinion) a crutch for poor training. Hate me for the statement or not, it is an opinion.


And I disagree with your opinion. :wink:

Sherry Cervi is one of my idols. She's a multiple world champion and one heck of a good rider. And she uses a tie down on her champion mare, Stingray. I guarantee there's not one ounce of poor training in this mare, or this rider. 










I have seen many people use tie downs incorrectly and use them as a crutch, so I don't oppose that it doesn't happen. 

If you don't want to use one, more power to ya. Your horses; your choice. I've never had to use one on my barrel horses either. But I am open-minded to the fact that it _may _help _certain_ horses perform_ better_. If it helps them, why not?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

updownrider said:


> Your expectation of riders at that level are impossible.
> 
> If an owner expected their horse to win a prize in every Grand Prix, then they are in the wrong business. I do not know any rider that would accept the ride from an owner that would make that demand. Even Beezie does not place in every class or Grand Prix because she is human and makes mistakes.


My expectation of riders at top level is that they are supposed to be the best of the best and the ones that young up and coming riders look to for example - how can they do that when simple mistakes like being on the right lead for the upcoming 'bend' can't even be managed
No one 'expects' the rider to win - but they do expect them to give the horse their best shot at it - otherwise why bother?
How can you expect riders to improve when you're so willing to excuse basic riding errors?


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Allison--Dear god... I need those ;-;~


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

This thread when it was closed had actually prompted me to start this one because some of the comments on this one.
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-talk/vaquero-californio-training-546962/ 
It pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject at hand. A few things I can add though since the thread has been opened back up and I am on my laptop rather than trying to do convey my thoughts via a mobile phone.

Myler bits, straight off, I own a few or rather one or two and some knock-offs. I get why sorral3 was saying they are a gimmick. They market them as the end all, be all bit to solve your problems and obviously Julie Goodnight is sponsored by them so she has to push them. They push tongue relief but tongue relief works for some horses not all., it's not the problem solver. I have horses that like them and some that don't. Not a big deal but now a lot of people think that tongue relief is the answer to their bitting problems, sometimes it, sometimes it is not. And what I think that sorral3 was getting at was that in the Vaquero/Californio method tongue relief isn't used to that extent. The horse is taught to hold the bit and signals transmitted to the tongue. The bit is not meant to rotate and apply pressure like in a curb bit situation.

Tie downs, meh, I can say I don't use a tie down _BUT I am not riding at the pro level_ and I don't think I need one on a horse that I cowboy, show and rodeo on. On a different horse and a different level I may think it helpful.


I did ride team roping horses for a multiple NFR qualifier and the only time those horses got a tie down was for competition otherwise they went with out and it was trying to ride them right. They were accustomed to one and knew how to use it if needed but I wouldn't think of it as a crutch as they were not ridden in it constantly or used to keep a horse from evading the bit.


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## scootsadandy (Mar 1, 2015)

I show reined cow horses and I completely agree with you. So many "trainers" not matter what discipline, do not care about the individual horse. If the horse doesn't fit the program he is thrown out like garbage. I am lucky enough to have a trainer who cares for the horses and will do what is best for THEM. He trains his cow horses the vaquero way and helps them understand what it is they are supposed to do. You will never see one of his horse abused, and that I why I trust him with my gelding. Sadly, there are very few trainers who really care about the horse. They are forced to perform, and never given the chance do do right. I've had horses that have inch deep indents? from spurs.


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