# Alternative Methods of ****ing off the Haflinger



## fadedoak (Jun 1, 2009)

I am just coming back from a torn ligament, I need some advice to getting back to good. I don't compete, theres no local trainers, I ride to ride, but I like doing it correctly. 
Since coming back from leave, Leave it to the Haflinger to deposit me on the trail and have to walk back, its happened twice. I really should learn right?
With that in mind, I decided to look into alternative methods of ****ing her off - in a contained space. 
I love her, I really do... 
A little back story. 
I started exercise riding for this farm about 3 years ago, I work with a few horses but always come back to working with the haflinger (cinnamon, aka lady lumps) She is the horse that has left me eating dirt, left me in a pasture some where, more than any of the others. The farm has pretty much become my family, its a small family place, with a barn and the tiny little arena you see. They feed me, they pay me, what more could a college kid want... besides a horse. She's mine until I graduate....then they fully expect me to stick her in my car and take her home. She is a trail horse, but I like futzing around with english since thats where my background is. She does that kicking thing - Its her little dance, I'm not looking for advice on how to fix it - I don't really care, no one else rides her besides me. She is 8, A chunky beast, and trained for trails and driving. 
About me, Been riding for 16 years, my past is in HUS but for the last 5 years I have been riding "annnd this horse is currently trying to kill me" which is, ride whatever is the most secure and can get the job done - aka, western. 
I would like to jump the haflinger, nothing big, just getting her off the ground. 
Heres the video:





And if you'd like to see her dance (not for critique, just for kicks) 





and if you'd like a pair of fuzzy reins - head over to the classified section.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Why do you tolerate that kicking crap? Any horse of mine would have a bald *** the second time that happened. Although I will say you're making it far in your goal of "****ing off the Haflinger."

What are you trying to accomplish in that first video? Why is the dog allowed out there? Why is it so repetitive, and why do you lean way forward--but loosely--over each "jump?"


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## fadedoak (Jun 1, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> Why do you tolerate that kicking crap? Any horse of mine would have a bald *** the second time that happened. Although I will say you're making it far in your goal of "****ing off the Haflinger."
> 
> What are you trying to accomplish in that first video? Why is the dog allowed out there? Why is it so repetitive, and why do you lean way forward--but loosely--over each "jump?"


I find the kicking crap amusing - to each their own. She has a tantrum, gets over with it, and moves on. I don't see the harm that it causes. 

Introduction to pole. 
It happens that dogs are quite common at barns. 
Its repetitive so I can review and learn from my mistakes. 
I don't know why I am leaning forward far too much, and loosely, I am learning. 

How about you offer constructive criticism?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

fadedoak said:


> I find the kicking crap amusing


I don't. Nor does anyone else I know. Most would view it as "ruining a horse" - but to each their own.



> - to each their own. She has a tantrum, gets over with it, and moves on. I don't see the harm that it causes.


The only harm it causes is that it reinforces the fact that she is the boss and she doesn't have to do anything the rider says. Which might explain, I don't know, why she's leaving you in the dust on the trails.



> Introduction to pole.


Looks like she's quite well introduced, and clumsily stumbling over it every time. She's not _spooking_ at it, if that what you're getting at, but she's also showing absolutely no indications of wanting to pick up her feet and keenly step or cleverly pop over it, so the repetition is doing nothing but making her (and me) bored. Either turn it into a training exercise with a definite goal or don't do it at all.



> It happens that dogs are quite common at barns.


Is that so? It also happens that dogs are quite commonly killed by kicking horses....like the ****ed-off Haflinger who will apparently kick both at her own rider and at anything behind her.



> Its repetitive so I can review and learn from my mistakes.


Well, have you gained any insight?



> I don't know why I am leaning forward far too much, and loosely, I am learning.


Try tightening up your center of balance. Either sit up straight with good posture or go into true two-point.



> How about you offer constructive criticism?


Thought I had.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

I think the kicking is kind of serious as it can be a sign of discomfort or it can lead to more serious vices like full-out bucking. If another person gets on her and she kicks, they could fall off or another horse could be kicked if they are near her.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

Also, something looks funny about her left fore sometimes. Does she ever limp or seem sore?


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## fadedoak (Jun 1, 2009)

Wow, 
You guys are a nasty bunch aren't you. 

Lesson I learned today, won't be posting here again.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

As someone who owns many Haflingers I find it incredibly sad that someone posts videos about intentionally ****ing off a Haffie, hell it doesn't take a genius to **** off a Haffy, just feed them late!!

I actually can't see the point in deliberately ****ing off any horse, it's just counter productive, train them yes, put them in a situation where you can provoke the undesirable behavior then correct it yes, but just to **** them off

To the rest, Bubba kind of covered it, so now I'm going to walk away shaking my head.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

I wasn't trying to be nasty, I was just trying to say why her kicking is a thing that needs to be addressed.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

fadedoak said:


> Wow,
> You guys are a nasty bunch aren't you.
> 
> Lesson I learned today, won't be posting here again.


So, did a good job in the objective of "****ing off the poster?" :lol:


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## fadedoak (Jun 1, 2009)

Do you honestly think I am going out there just to poke her with sticks to see how often I can get her to kick? No, she is my doll, I accept her for who she is and sometimes she is a pill. Just Like I am sure Bubba is outside of the forum, but we all poke fun and have a good time, and thats what the title of my post was sposed to signify. Its called sarcasm folks. I really just want to find something new to do with my horse. I just don't know how. I'm sorry none of you picked up on that. 

There was that warning on the posting of the thread, the one that says posters beware or some sort, about how people come from different places and you should stop and consider. That goes for both. 
But the key of offering yourself to criticism is hoping that the the people doing it are respectful. Which I have seen none of. Ya'll are rude and negative. 

Would you rather me say, yes, tell me how to fix the kick - then never do so? I can do that, but I am honest, and blunt. Her true owner doesn't want me to fix it, so she does it and tries to get away, but we go on like nothing happens, and she moves smoothly from there on out. Please respect that this is how it is.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Then why in the bloody tarnation did you post a thread in the Riding Critique section?

I just really hope that a) this horse doesn't end up killing you next time and b) this horse doesn't end up being killed after being taught some bad, dangerous habits.


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## fadedoak (Jun 1, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> Then why in the bloody tarnation did you post a thread in the Riding Critique section?
> 
> I just really hope that a) this horse doesn't end up killing you next time and b) this horse doesn't end up being killed after being taught some bad, dangerous habits.


What? Do all morals go to **** as soon as I post here? Who cares - about respect, lets just beat her to death. 

I am asking for new things to do with her, can you give me help on that? Without being negative, without being rude?
Besides beating her until her butt is bald (is that really a better alternative?) 
I doubt that you can.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

fadedoak said:


> I find the kicking crap amusing - to each their own. She has a tantrum, gets over with it, and moves on. I don't see the harm that it causes.


She kicked at the dog in the first video and nearly connected and she kicked at the black horse in the second video and didn't miss by much. If you keep letting her do it you'll soon see the harm it causes. You were also letting her wander all over the road and cut off the horse behind you. That's pretty bad manners on your part for allowing it. 

The little haffie probably needs a diet before she founders if she hasn't already.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Morals? Are you kidding me? Honey, you don't know what rude _is_. Nothing has been posted here that isn't in your and your horse's best interests. 

I've given you my advice. There is nothing additional you can add to your "training" regimen that will have any benefit whatsoever until you address the aforementioned underlying issues.


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## fadedoak (Jun 1, 2009)

Alrighty Then.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Whack her on the *** every single time she kicks. If she kicks when you whack her then whack her again. As far as the wieght issue, put her in a pen and don't feed her as much as she's getting now.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

Okay, if you want to try something new, try working on lateral movements, collection, transitions and speed control as these will make her much more enjoyable to ride. Have you done any sort of gaming? You could try doing some barrels or poles just for fun.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

WELL! She's a skivey little ****** isn't she? I totally get what the others are saying about her kicking, if I had been on the horse behind you I'd probably have tried to get after her myself. But, if you find it funny, ......just keep wearing your brain bucket. 

As for new things, I like barrel racing, pole bending and competitive trail rides myself.


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## fadedoak (Jun 1, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Whack her on the *** every single time she kicks. If she kicks when you whack her then whack her again. As far as the wieght issue, put her in a pen and don't feed her as much as she's getting now.


How is that any different from what I am doing now?
In both videos, I kick her, she kicks back, I kick back. In the first video she stops after the initial kick, the second it takes her a bit longer.


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## fadedoak (Jun 1, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> WELL! She's a skivey little ****** isn't she? I totally get what the others are saying about her kicking, if I had been on the horse behind you I'd probably have tried to get after her myself. But, if you find it funny, ......just keep wearing your brain bucket.
> 
> As for new things, I like barrel racing, pole bending and competitive trail rides myself.


I don't let her get away with it - I will kick her back until she figures out we are moving forward no matter what she does. 

Sometimes we are distracted about steering in the process of figuring out who has the foot on the gas.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

What you are doing is not uncomfortable enough to make her stop. Make the consequenses harsh enough and the behaviour will stop. I would either use a spur or a crop and I would use both enthusiastically every time she did it.


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## fadedoak (Jun 1, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> She kicked at the dog in the first video and nearly connected and she kicked at the black horse in the second video and didn't miss by much. If you keep letting her do it you'll soon see the harm it causes. You were also letting her wander all over the road and cut off the horse behind you. That's pretty bad manners on your part for allowing it.
> 
> The little haffie probably needs a diet before she founders if she hasn't already.


Yes, I see that often her kicking at me, could harm others in the outlying areas. Usually the dog keeps his distance. In regards to our curvy road experience, I was intentionally going on the other side of the road before the videographer told me she could only point the camera one way. 

She is on a dry lot, she has lost weight, but its slow going.


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## fadedoak (Jun 1, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> What you are doing is not uncomfortable enough to make her stop. Make the consequenses harsh enough and the behaviour will stop. I would either use a spur or a crop and I would use both enthusiastically every time she did it.


Good point, that would teach her, and royally **** her off enough to stop. Gold star for you! Do I need to put a disclaimer on this comment? Or will everyone accept that its a training method and not a animal abuse case... can't be too careful you know?
I will try a crop next time, I am curious what type of fit she will throw. We shall video that one. And wear the brain bucket.


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## jumanji321 (Dec 1, 2010)

I don't think anyone's objecting since almost everyone who has commented implied the exact same punishment.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

To help with the wieght loss you can ride her faster. That would also keep her mind on placing her feet and less on kicking or wandering around.


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## jumpingrules92 (Aug 2, 2011)

Remind me to never let you "exercise" my horses..good lord. If ANYONE tried to **** off my horses for "amusement" I would be down right upset. You can make up all the excuses you want for why you let her do it, or why you don't correct it and whatever else you wanna say- it's not going to make you a better rider/trainer/owner/whateveryouwanttobe in the end. Excuses don't get you anywhere- finding the problem and fixing it does.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

fadedoak said:


> I am asking for new things to do with her, can you give me help on that?


No not really..you have no real basic understanding of horse/human relationship.and an attitude that seems unwilling to learn 



> Without being negative, without being rude?


That is as polite as I can get.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

You are posting in the critique section, so people are responding with what they assumed you wanted, a critique. 

I personally believe that if you don't correct the kicking issue and soon, you will have a pony who escalates and is a bucker. In the first video, you need to push her on more, don't give her time to kick out. And I'd like to see you in more of a 2 point with more release over the jump. 
I don't think it is safe for your dog to have it around the horse at the moment while you are riding. 

In the second video, she gave lots of warning before she kicked out at the horse behind. As it is known that she has these issues, that horse should never have been allowed to get so close. 

As far as the direction of travel, I can see where you went to the other side of the road, and then changed your mind - however in the rest of the video, you are allowing her to just amble along as long as she is going in the general direction you want. She has your number and is taking advantage of you because you are you not taking charge of the situation.


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

Although you may not see it, I think a big problem here is respect. When you say "go forward" she should go forward immediately, you shouldn't have to kick or fight. Her kicking back is just asserting her dominance over you. Her "dancing" on the road is another of these assertions of dominance, and she's winning. The way you can tell this is because she keeps repeating this behaviour. 

This riding critique forum is a place where, by posting, you invite the complete advice of anyone on this website. Out of all the boards this is one of the main "full advice" ones. If you're not open minded and willing to listen to what others say then don't post here, there are many other boards on here, like Horse Talk, or Horse Pictures where you can post. 

My critique is that you're far too passive. You think her "dancing" is fun and it makes her like you but that's not the way horses think. Her dancing is her saying she's better than you, that she doesn't have to listen to you. The fact that she throws you on the trail and then runs off completely demonstrates the attitude of this horse - she doesn't want you around her, unless probably you have food. The reason for this is not because you're bad, or she's bad, and its not a personal attack. It's because horses follow the most dominant, they crave leadership and acceptance from the most dominant. To give the horse what she wants you have to be the most dominant. 

I don't like spurs or whips and I think the repeated use of spurs just exacerbates a problem. I'd head back to ground work. A nice long lead, helmet, gloves, a dressage whip or something as an extension of your arm, and start getting her to yield away. Work with her until she'll move forward with just a touch, or even just a voice command. 

Then ride her and get her moving, if she stops and doesn't listen to your leg you send her forward with everything you have, get a good fast trot or canter out of her. You don't want to be arguing with her, you don't want to spend the time kicking, if she stops you want to immediately have her going forward faster. 

As for your riding. Her trot needs impulsion, movement, she's just sort of stumbling along. Keep her going, get some good solid canter work in. Start working on your two point, do a few laps in the two point position. You just sort of collapse forward over the pole, and your whole position weakens. If anything your are making it harder for the horse, not making it easier which is what the two point is meant to do. Really, for just a pole like that, you probably don't even need to change your position, just keep rising trot. If you decide to practice your two point put your stirrups up a few holes. 

Once you have your two point down pat, then instead just having a single pole, set a row of them, like caveletti, or when they get bigger, basic grids. Before Cinnamon can do that though, you need to get her fit, and moving with a lot more energy and impulsion. 

I know sometimes it can seem like you are being "attacked" on here, but coming online, especially on critique, you're asking for honest opinions from experienced people, and that's what you got. I think this forum can be a great resource, but you can't get offended and defensive at every turn.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Folks, let's chill a little bit.

The OP was using the "let's **** her off" figuratively, not literally. I was able to see that. I do not think she was really intentionally ****ing her off, for goodness sake.

That said, this haffie needs to be taught her role in life. She is definitely wanting to be the boss in your relationship. If I were riding that horse, I would have a dressage whip in my hand and I would be ready to violate a rule I have about dressage whip (tap, not smack). Every time she did that behavior, I would give her ONE good whack. Just one correction for one violation of her part. It would sting!! If she reacted by doing it again, I would smack her again, every time. The minute she stopped and simply moved forward off my leg, I would PRAISE her mightily.

I also see some possible lameness, seen in her head bobbing. Mostly in the first video on the clockwise circle. At :16, at 1:04, for example. There are places where it is even more noticeable. You need to get her checked out as some of this behavior may be pain based.

If she checks out sound, I would take her on long fitness hacks as she is bordering on obese. I would do brisk trots on that fabulous dirt road you have. Brisk trot with few breaks. It will build fitness, which she seems lacking, and help lose weight.

Yes, people have been overly harsh in their criticism, here. For that I am sorry. Criticism CAN be made in a constructive and less belittling fashion. However, some feel frustrated if they feel their advice is being discounted.

Advice might not get discounted if it is made a bit more palatable and less defense building method.

Hope this helps a bit


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

You have a couple of incorrect assumptions in your original post. First, the Haffie is not a trail horse. Second, she has not been "trained for trails". I raised and trained trailhorses for many years, and when trained they do not exhibit the behaviors your Haffie does, and certainly don't dump you and force you to walk back.

As I see it the issue is you are trying to accomplish some training objectives - what I would term intermediate training, but the Haffie hasn't yet completed her basic training. What she needs is to be taken back to square one and be trained properly one step at a time...you are trying to move her to jumping and trails when she doesn't even meet most people's definition of greenbroke. 

You state you aren't interested in fixing her issues, but honestly she is not going to perform to your expectations unless those issues are addressed. I hope you can work them out - she is a nice looking girl, albeit a bit chunky as you say...


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## deise (Nov 9, 2011)

wow didnt realise people were so mean on this i dont think ill ever post up pics if me riding now


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

deise said:


> wow didnt realise people were so mean on this i dont think ill ever post up pics if me riding now


In the critique section, you will get honest answers. Unfortunately sometimes those answers are things we may not want to hear or acknowledge. Comments are posted with intent of helping the op. 

There is a sticky at the top of this forum discussing this exact thing. 
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding-critique/all-people-asking-critique-48441/


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## deise (Nov 9, 2011)

yes but there is constructive critisism and there is being mean!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

And there is honest ignorance and then there is knowingly wallowing in that ignorance.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I agree with the others about how to fix her kicking and attitude problem. The kicking is really NOT ok by any means and by encouraging it (or not fixing it) you are increasing the odds that someone is going to get hurt badly by that horse. Lily is a kicker and though she has never kicked under saddle (if she did her life would become an instant living hell) I always warn other riders and watch where I'm putting her ***. Personally I'd feel pretty terrible if my horse shattered someone's knee with something I thought was funny/cute. 

Basically in my opinion you need to RIDE her, right now you're just kind of sitting on her back screwing around. She's the boss not you. Yes there are definitely times I'm screwing around on my horses' backs and being a lazy bum, but that is a "treat" so to speak and only granted when they've behaved during a ride and you can bet that if they start acting up while I'm relaxing I put their butts to work. By work I mean circles, speed changes, direction changes, serpentines, backing up, sidepassing, turns on the forehand and hindquarters. These are all things that will keep her mind busy and if used correctly will teach her that YOU are the boss NOT her. She'll be a happier horse and you'll have a ton more fun with her because of it.

She seems like a cute little mare and I really think you guys make a good pair, but you do need to step up and be the leader before one of you or someone else ends up hurt.


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## MandiMal (Sep 29, 2011)

I didn't really think anything else needed to be said after Allison Finch's reply, thought she summed it up nicely, but since everyone else is chipping in still, why not add my two cents?
I can see points on both sides of this argument; I completely agree the kicking is a problem and needs to be addressed. I also agree with the methods already mentioned; a corrective whack from a crop is no where near abuse (I thought I remember abuse being brought up in a comment somewhere, forgive me if I'm mistaken) Also, a diet would be in this pony's best interest!
I also understand that the OP was being sarcastic when talking about "****ing off" her horse. And I can see why she might have felt attacked. The advice given was sound, but in all honesty, it could have been said in a "nicer" tone, if you will. Yes, people are offering themselves up for critique, and if that is what they are truly after, they should be receptive to advice, when given constructively. 
Anyhow, that's just my thoughts!


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

I didn't get to watch the videos, it said they were removed by the user. However, I did read what you wrote about it. Hopefully I can offer some constructive criticism & hopefully, even though you said you weren't posting here again, you'll get this somehow:

The horse constantly leaving you in the dirt on trails shouldn't be tolerated, especially if you're just recovering from an injury. You don't want to hurt yourself again, possibly even worse. If you're riding trails alone now, would it be possible to ride with other horses? My guess is that every time she dumps you, she goes back to the barn. Try going out with other horses that she gets along with. Horses are social animals and she might feel more at ease and happier if she has some equine comrades in the woods.

As for the kicking, I personally don't tolerate it from my horse. If he kicks, I do a one rein (in case you don't know, that's taking one rein and pulling it up to your chest) and that makes him constantly do hind-ends. He can't kick because of the way he's bending and doing constant hind-ends is a lot harder than going straight forward. Make her do that until she comes to a stop. If you do this immediately after she kicks every time, she should eventually cut it out since it's more work for her. However, on the other hand, my trainer has told people before when a horse kicks to just ride it out and show them that it doesn't bother you and every time they've done that, the kicking stops. 

A good exercise to do before even getting on is flagging her. This will get out all the extra energy she has. You can do this by going into the arena with a lunge whip and letting her run around freely. However, using the lunge whip, you're in charge of how fast she moves (but it's best to let her run as much as she needs to) and what direction she goes. She has to know that you are in charge of where her feet move. You don't hit her with it, just pop it and she should go. Eventually, you should notice her body language telling you that she's listening to you and relying on your instruction. By the end of the flagging session, she should ideally walk up to you when you have your back turned to her. Then you can pat her, walk forward, and she should follow. Even if she has never done this before, she should catch on. It'll just take longer the first few times. I introduced my horse to this and I do it practically every time I go to ride. It really makes a difference!

As for the whole intention of making her mad, I would cut that out. The point of being around horses is to form a partnership with them, letting them know that you're in charge, but that you're a trustworthy leader. Making her mad just for fun is only going to make her resent you and your riding. That may even be part of the reason she dumps you off all the time. Just sayin'. 

Good luck with the Haffie!


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