# Neck reining and bits?! URGENT



## darkpony

Best bit IMO for neck reining is a low curb. The only thing you can do is give it a try. Most horses wont neck rein as well in a bit without shanks (which is why your horse worked better in a tom thumb.) I think a tom thumb might feel harsh to him because of the nut cracker effect it has on the mouth. As I'm sure you know, be gentle with his soft mouth especially when trying a new bit.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

I have the Circle R (by Reinsman) version of this bit Sharon Camarillo Lifesaver Tender Touch Bit - Horse.com and my gelding LOVES it. I got it at Tractor Supply for $21.

This is also a nice mild curb bit. It's good because the sides can move independently and the shanks swivel: Western SS Low Port Futurity Bit - Horse.com
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## darkpony

Also, does he know what you expect from him? If he's not sure what you want a different bit wont be your answer.


----------



## Ilovespirit

darkpony said:


> Best bit IMO for neck reining is a low curb. The only thing you can do is give it a try. Most horses wont neck rein as well in a bit without shanks (which is why your horse worked better in a tom thumb.) I think a tom thumb might feel harsh to him because of the nut cracker effect it has on the mouth. As I'm sure you know, be gentle with his soft mouth especially when trying a new bit.


I was VERY gentle... hes a horse you typically have to stay on but I felt like when I was trying to ask him thinks he would throw a fit but do them. even with a loose rein he would throw his head and throw a fit. I belive he has done neck reining in the past because he was catching on fairly quick. Im very nervous to try one of those curbs on him because he is so sensitive and when he dosnt like something he will tell you and it becomes scary. (remember hes been ridden in a full cheek snaffle pretty much all the time)So you don't think it will be to harsh on him?


----------



## Ilovespirit

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I have the Circle R (by Reinsman) version of this bit Sharon Camarillo Lifesaver Tender Touch Bit - Horse.com and my gelding LOVES it. I got it at Tractor Supply for $21.
> 
> This is also a nice mild curb bit. It's good because the sides can move independently and the shanks swivel: Western SS Low Port Futurity Bit - Horse.com
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I was talking to a lady today at my barn and she also recommended the tender touch... but by the look of it, it dosnt look very forgiving. (my horse is extremely sensitive) can you give me any info on how it works by any chance?


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

It works first off poll pressure, then the curb strap engages, then the mouthpiece engages. It's more mild than a Tom Thumb because the mouthiiece is into three pieces, so there isn't the nutcracker action of the TT.

My gelding doesn't like snaffles much, but he LOVES the TenderTouch (the knockoff I have has a smooth sweet iron mouthpiece). He's a completely different horse in it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BarrelRacer23

You need to teach him to neck rein most of all, if he doesn't know how a bit is just a cover-up. Just work on teaching him to move off the rein pressure, and leg pressure. Stay consistent and he will get it. My gelding neck reins in a halter


----------



## TXhorseman

Think this through. The basic idea of neck reining is that a horse moves right when the left rein is applied to its neck and moves left when the right rein is applied to its neck. Therefore, the bit in its mouth should be irrelevant. In actual practice, much more is involved, including how the rider uses his body. Again, however, the bit in the horse's mouth should have a negligible effect. However, we are discussing training.

Before discussing the use of the reins, I would like to stress: the better a rider sits his horse, the better the horse will respond. Riders often unwittingly hinder a horse from doing the very thing they are asking the horse to do. The best seat is one that is both relaxed and balanced. This includes the basic alignment of head over shoulders over hips over heels. The bones of the rider's spine over a vertical pelvis should support the rider's weight so his muscles can relax and respond subtly as needed. The muscles throughout the rider's hips, crotch, legs, and even feet should be without tension and hang easily along the horse's side as a result of gravity.The rider's center of gravity should be over his horse's center of gravity.

To turn right when sitting this way, a rider usually need only draw his left leg back slightly while rotating his whole upper torso as a single unit to the right. He should look ahead about 1/6th of the circumference of an imaginary circle with the eyes in his head and imaginary eyes in his chest. As he does this, the rider is doing many little things which should influence his horse to turn much like when one is walking along with his arm around a friend's shoulder. He turns and his friend turns with him without thinking about it.

If, for some reason, the horse does not respond to this, the rider may resort to a very basic way of explaining to the horse what is desired. This technique is best practiced with a snaffle bit because its design is better suited for lateral action than that of a shank bit. If a shank bit is used, the shorter the shanks the better.

Using this technique to turn right, the rider would apply the left rein to the horse's neck without any tension. Initially, this would probably not elicit a response from the horse. The rider would, then, draw the right rein smoothly to the right. If the rider is relaxed and has his horse relaxed, the horse's head should be drawn to the right and it should start moving in that direction. The moment the horse responds, the rider should release any tension in the right rein. He may, then, apply it again if necessary rather than simply pulling harder.

With relaxed practice, the horse should soon respond by turning right as soon as the left rein is applied to its neck. Of course, you will want to reverse everything to turn left.


----------



## bsms

Once a horse neck reins well, they'll do it fine in any bit. I think the signal is a little clearer to the horse if the mouthpiece doesn't fold or flex - so I'd suggest either a Billy Allen or ported curb bit with independent shanks.








​ 
I switched my horse to a curb before she knew neck reining. She learned in a Billy Allen. It worked fine for teaching her.

Curb bits do not work off of additional pressure. They don't work off of poll pressure, either. Try standing next to the horse with your fingertips under the bridle at the poll, and pulling back on the reins. I've done it a bunch of times and can't feel anything.

The beauty of a curb bit is that you can adjust the curb strap so the shanks rotate 45-60 degrees before the curb strap tightens. The bit merely ROTATES in that stage. No significant pressure is applied to the horse's mouth until the curb strap tightens. Only then will pressure be applied.

As always, the amount of pressure is up to the horse. None of us decide to apply 5 lbs of pressure as a cue. We apply increasing pressure until the horse responds, then remove the pressure. The horse hasn't studied mechanics, so he doesn't know if the 6 lbs of pressure he is responding to comes from 6 lbs applied to a snaffle, or 2 lbs applied to a curb which then multiplies the force 3 times to deliver 6.

You will be fine as long as you:

A) Do not snatch at the reins. Always give a little time for the horse to feel the shanks and mouthpiece ROTATING and obey there. If the horse does not obey there, then pressure will be applied. But if you don't snatch on the reins, the horse WILL learn it is easier to obey when the shanks rotate, and then you can ride without EVER applying pressure to the horse's mouth.

B) Release at response. Just like any other bit - when the horse response, remove the pressure. Riding with continuous pressure and no release will ruin a horse's mouth in a snaffle just as quickly as in a curb.

However, the most important piece of advice I'd give about neck reining is that it is done with the reins, not the bit!

If you want the horse to have a clear, understandable cue, then leather split reins work better than most others - the heavier the better. There needs to be some weight applied to a spot that make the horse recognize a cue. I tend to use yacht rope reins. They are soft and light, and the only way I found to give the horse a CLEAR cue was to move the reins about 6" forward before giving the cue.

With leather split reins held so the extra length went down each side, moving my hand left pulled the side hanging down on the right up her shoulder. She almost immediately figured out that when the rein hanging at her shoulder moved, she should turn. In a sense I guess she was 'shoulder reining' - but it gave a clearer cue.

But even moving my hand a few inches forward before moving it sideways gives her a clear idea that I'm about to neck rein. Think about how you handle the reins, and how to give the horse a clear, distinct, cannot mistake it for something else cue using the reins.

Also, this advice worked for me in teaching her neck reining:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSEpVq2v-Rk&feature=player_embedded


----------



## Reiningcatsanddogs

Agree with Tx Horseman, proper balance, feel and timing. 

For ease of learning, horse being taught to neck rein should already have a solid response to seat and leg cues prior to training to neck rein. By combining leg and seat (known stimulus-response), you then introduce the neck rein so that the horse can learn to associate the new cue-response with well understood cues. 

When I say solid response, what I mean is that you should be able to get that horse to respond correctly to basic leg and seat regardless of what you are riding him in whether bosal, halter or snaffle. 

Seat and legs are the foundation of proper riding, reins apply the finishing touches.


----------



## GracielaGata

bsms said:


> ​


bsms, is this a snaffle bit with a center roller over the top of the joint to stiffen it? I was looking up Billy Allen bits, because I like the look of this one, and all I can find by him that seem similar are ones like I describe. 
Thanks.

Also wanted to add that teaching neck reining can be done in a full cheek snaffle as well, I think someone else mentioned it already. 
My mare isn't 100% by far, but she is definitely getting it. And my reins are a very light braided paracord single 9ft piece, so no real neck weight to help signal. Obviously done in a full cheek snaffle, as I mentioned. 
I tend to also use my legs and very light body shifts to get her to understand what I am asking. Can't say how 'real' or proper it is as a way to do it, but it works for her and me very well.


----------



## Ilovespirit

GracielaGata said:


> bsms, is this a snaffle bit with a center roller over the top of the joint to stiffen it? I was looking up Billy Allen bits, because I like the look of this one, and all I can find by him that seem similar are ones like I describe.
> Thanks.
> 
> Also wanted to add that teaching neck reining can be done in a full cheek snaffle as well, I think someone else mentioned it already.
> My mare isn't 100% by far, but she is definitely getting it. And my reins are a very light braided paracord single 9ft piece, so no real neck weight to help signal. Obviously done in a full cheek snaffle, as I mentioned.
> I tend to also use my legs and very light body shifts to get her to understand what I am asking. Can't say how 'real' or proper it is as a way to do it, but it works for her and me very well.


Im just very worried that 10 weeks wont be enough. because he has to be doing these maneuvers at a trot with neck reining (we are novice) And we do sharp turns and stuff ALL these other horses are already trained to do this. this is something I want to do but im scared I will mess it up for my team!!! :-(


----------



## GracielaGata

Ilovespirit said:


> Im just very worried that 10 weeks wont be enough. because he has to be doing these maneuvers at a trot with neck reining (we are novice) And we do sharp turns and stuff ALL these other horses are already trained to do this. this is something I want to do but im scared I will mess it up for my team!!! :-(


Oh definitely. 
I wasn't trying to imply that you had to do it with a non-shanked bit.  I am sure using a shanked/curb bit that the horse tolerates will speed up the process a lot.  I guess my comment was more general... sorry about that.  
Have fun on drill team! I wish I could do it. When my mare was boarded, some of us boarders would do our own drill type stuff in the arena. It was fun. No one knew how to neck rein, and my horse was the shortest so we had a hard time pacing the rest, but still very fun.  Very good thinking exercise for you and the horse.


----------



## verona1016

DraftyAiresMum said:


> This is also a nice mild curb bit. It's good because the sides can move independently and the shanks swivel: Western SS Low Port Futurity Bit - Horse.com
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There have been a few curb bit threads lately, and this bit comes up a lot. It's almost the same as this bit, which has a sweet iron mouthpiece: http://smile.amazon.com/Francois-Gauthier-Collection-Metalab-Futurity/dp/B009HZMTFI 

I was looking at those when I was looking for a curb bit for my horse (usually rides English, had only a basic understanding of neck reining) and ended up getting this one to get my Schneider's order up to free shipping ;-) It looks somewhat different from the other two but has more or less the same functionality: FES Bit Western Jointed Port/Roller Mouth in Mullen/Low Port at Schneider Saddlery


----------



## bsms

GracielaGata said:


> bsms, is this a snaffle bit with a center roller over the top of the joint to stiffen it? I was looking up Billy Allen bits, because I like the look of this one, and all I can find by him that seem similar are ones like I describe.
> Thanks...


It wouldn't be considered a snaffle because it has shanks. A Billy Allen snaffle looks like this (I have one and it works OK):










The Billy Allen uses a roller over the joint, so the sides can rotate independently of each other, but the mouthpeice stays flat. Another one (Bob Avila) looks like this:










There is no port for 'tongue relief'. Some say it results in the horse carrying it head more vertical. I've seen no sign of that. Mia in her Bob Avila BA:


----------



## GracielaGata

bsms said:


> It wouldn't be considered a snaffle because it has shanks. A Billy Allen snaffle looks like this (I have one and it works OK):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Billy Allen uses a roller over the joint, so the sides can rotate independently of each other, but the mouthpeice stays flat. Another one (Bob Avila) looks like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There is no port for 'tongue relief'. Some say it results in the horse carrying it head more vertical. I've seen no sign of that. Mia in her Bob Avila BA:


Hehe on the snaffle part- I was focusing on it being a split mouthpiece with a roller over it and didn't even think about what I had typed. 
I will look up some info on those, if I ever change bits. I tried an Argentine dog bone on her. 
She was very confused and I couldn't do anything to help the situation. From her reaction, I was thinking it was due to the bit having the middle break and the shanks together. That those together might be too much for her still. So I like that the roller keeps the bit stiffer, but not fully solid. 
Thanks!


----------



## mslady254

I'm drill team ignorant,,,but why does it have to be neck reining? As long as you get the turns and the sharp turns, why does it matter wether it's done by neck reining ??

Thanks to whoever answers, don't mean to sideline the thread,b ut am curious.

Fay


----------



## DraftyAiresMum

Verona, I have the exact bit I posted and I LOVE the mechanics of it. The cheek pieces swivel and the mouthpiece moves independently, so if you have to pick up a rein to correct the horse, the signal isn't muddied like it would be in a solid curb. It also has nice short shanks. It is EXACTLY the same as the FG bit you linked to on Amazon, minus the sweet iron mouth. I've had hands on both bits and love them both, just the generic version was half the cost.

Fay, I'm pretty sure a lot of drill teams carry flags in their routines, which would make neck reining a necessity, as you can't direct rein when one hand is occupied holding a flag. Also, drill team is all about uniformity of movement and looks. If one person is direct reining while everyone else is neck reining, it ruins the uniformity. It's all about tight formations and everyone working as a unit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## mslady254

DraftyAiresMum,
Thanks!! I didnt think about them possibly carrying a flag. That makes sense. Also, I see the point made about the uniform appearance as well.
'preciate it.

Fay


----------

