# Are You a "Good" Person?



## Shropshirerosie

In answer to your question - I was curious because I've never been directed to a link like this before.

Then I initially reacted against it because of it's overt Christian origin and I am not a Christian. But I took it anyway, because you had asked the question and I was still curious.

Then the questionnaire irritated me for a million reasons, but prominent among them were the attempts to make black & white of what is actually a grey area (for example the 'have you ever stolen anything' ... Like an idea? A biscuit? A bar of gold?), and the constant quoting from the bible, and the unscientific nature of the questionnaire.

Then I went on to the next page and continued to play along and selected the 'I am a sinner' box - still out of politeness to you for having asked, and still out of curiously.

Then I balked at the next bit where it asked me if I was going to go to Heaven or Hell. As I don't believe that either exist, and there was no 'neither' option, I exited.


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## myhorseisthebest

Ok, 1 thing, you said I am going to Hell, well God forgives you if you ask, if I you trust him, and have accepted Him in my heart, I go to Heaven, God IS forgiving! 

We can ALL very saved, BUT we have to go to God.

Does that make since?


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## aubie

Didn't take the test. Saw the title in link and surmised it was going to get around to the good works part. But to answer your question I think I am a good person.


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## rhosroyalvelvet

I think it was a little severe. Like did you ever steal? Many people when they are young would take something unknowing of what they were doing. Went to confession when they were doing their first comunion and confessed it asked for forgivness and you didn't do it again. So yes you stole and then you are told you are going to hell and God will not forgive everything...

Yes sometimes you tell a lie to protect others feelings... you go to hell

Then you see did you give money to charity box and answer yes... Giving money to charity, going to church, and reading the Bible are all good activities--but none of them impress God. The Bible says, "and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6) You do a good thing and your pelted for it. It may be to make up for bad things or you may just be a good person and they tell you this.

Now read your Bible daily They just told you that that accounts for nothing in Gods eyes...

I do find this sever and vering away from the whole religious concept of love and forgivness.


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## DancingArabian

Absurd. 

Most of the questions have nothing to do with if you're a "good person" or not, but rather if you're a "good" Christian or not. Being a good person has nothing to do with how well you follow the rules of one particular religion.


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## Saddlebag

I'm with Rosie on this one. If you believe you will go to heaven, perhaps you'd be interested in knowing that there are many convicted killers there. When someone gets the death sentence, he has only to declare that he has taken Jesus into his heart, and you god will forgive him. No thanks, not for me. If the killers are in heaven there must be a great bunch in hell.


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## tinyliny

I am a good person. Not perfect, but good. I don't need a questionnaire to know that.


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## ErinaStars

I put what I said in BOLD:



Shropshirerosie said:


> In answer to your question - I was curious because I've never been directed to a link like this before.
> 
> Then I initially reacted against it because of it's overt Christian origin and I am not a Christian. But I took it anyway, because you had asked the question and I was still curious.
> 
> Then the questionnaire irritated me for a million reasons, but prominent among them were the attempts to make black & white of what is actually a grey area (for example the 'have you ever stolen anything' ... Like an idea? A biscuit? A bar of gold?),*Well that(little sin) is serious in God's eyes, and since He is Holy he can't have sinners in heaven. Thats why he sent His son to the earth to save us from our sins.
> And we don't get to heaven by our good works "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 * and the constant quoting from the bible, and the unscientific nature of the questionnaire.*What unscientific nature, where was it unscientific?*
> 
> Then I went on to the next page and continued to play along and selected the 'I am a sinner' box - still out of politeness to you for having asked*Thank you, I'm glad you gave it a try! A very important question is where will you spend eternity, wouldn't you like to know?*, and still out of curiously.
> 
> Then I balked at the next bit where it asked me if I was going to go to Heaven or Hell. As I don't believe that either exist, and there was no 'neither' option, I exited.*So do you believe in some kind of after life? Or that this life is the end, you die, go six feet under and the bugs eat you?*


You should watch this when you have some time "180 The Movie" got 1 Million views in 22 days:

http://180movie.com


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## ErinaStars

aubie said:


> Didn't take the test. Saw the title in link and surmised it was going to get around to the good works part. But to answer your question I think I am a good person.


Actually it is totally opposite of "good works"(you'd have to take the test to know:wink it says in the Bible: 
_8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast._
Ephesians 2:8-9

So are you a good person by "God's" standards or by 'your" own?


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## ErinaStars

tinyliny said:


> I am a good person. Not perfect, but good. I don't need a questionnaire to know that.


A sheep can look pretty white against green grass, but against clean, bright, white snow the sheep looks pretty dirty! 

So are you a good person by God's standards or by your own standards?


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> A sheep can look pretty white against green grass, but against clean, bright, white snow the sheep looks pretty dirty!
> 
> So are you a good person by God's standards or by your own standards?


If you don't believe in god, then it's irrelevant what standards he may have.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ninamebo

OP, are you going to challenge the words of anyone who took the test but doesn't have the same reaction about it as you do? That seems a bit silly. 

The test also seemed completely unnecessary, and that's coming from a very devout Catholic. The whole thing made me quite mad actually. What about all of those people that do not worship God, but never break any of the Ten Commandments? Is there really no mercy for them? 

I have my own beliefs but I am quite happy to let everyone else do what they believe as it's their lives. This questionnaire did not do the same.


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## ErinaStars

rhosroyalvelvet said:


> I think it was a little severe. Like did you ever steal? Many people when they are young would take something unknowing of what they were doing. Went to confession when they were doing their first comunion and confessed*I'm assuming that is what Catholics would do, some have told me that it a "works based faith" thats not what the Bible teaches, read Ephesians 2:8-9 and you'll find it says something the exact opposite. * it asked for forgivness and you didn't do it again. So yes you stole and then you are told you are going to hell and God will not forgive everything...*Yes He will forgive, so many people celebrate Christmas and they don't even know what it means, God sent His only son to earth to die for US, to save us from our sins, God's GIFT to us! John 1:19 What we need to do is Repent, Turn away from our sins(When we have the Holy Spirit in us we have new desires, we no longer want to commit sin, we still do though but God is abounding in mercy and love.)
> And we need to place our trust in Him.
> 
> Think of a parachute, you can say "I believe the parachute will save me", but you have to put it on, you don't jump off the plain without it! That would be crazy...just like you put on the parachute you Must put on Christ *
> 
> Yes sometimes you tell a lie to protect others feelings*God never condones telling "any" kind of lie, its wrong. *... you go to hell *But God sent His only Son (Jesus Christ) to earth so you don't have to!*
> 
> Then you see did you give money to charity box and answer yes... Giving money to charity, going to church, and reading the Bible are all good activities--but none of them impress God. The Bible says, "and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6) You do a good thing and your pelted for it. It may be to make up for bad things or you may just be a good person and they tell you this.*Are you looking at God's standards or Your Own?*
> 
> Now read your Bible daily They just told you that that accounts for nothing in Gods eyes...*God wants you to Repent, Turn from your sins, He'll give you a new heart with new desires, and put your trust in Him.*
> 
> I do find this sever and vering away from the whole religious concept of love and forgivness.*Not at all! But people mix the ideas, God "does" love you and He 'does" forgive you, but you need to Repent, Turn from your sins, and put your trust in Him.*


What would you think of me 9 please humor me for a sec...)if I was fishing, siting on a rock near a waterfall and I saw some people in a boat going past me heading towards the waterfall and they were clueless, should I not say anything because I didn't want to Offend them? No, I would tell them, and warn them. 

I'm just sharing with you the gospel, the GOOD News!
You know what is the most killer in the World.....Death....10 out of 10 die(its a fact=), so will you please just think about it?

~Ivy~ 

P.S. Thanks for taking the test!


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> Well that(little sin) is serious in God's eyes, and since He is Holy he can't have sinners in heaven. That's why he sent His son to the earth to save us from our sins.


If heaven and god were real then you would have sinners in heaven. They only need repent and they are forgiven. It doesn't erase their sin as if it never happened. The sin still occurred. The person is just forgiven for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ErinaStars

Ninamebo said:


> OP, are you going to challenge the words of anyone who took the test but doesn't have the same reaction about it as you do? That seems a bit silly. *Absolutely not, and I'm sorry if I came across that way, that is not my intention(please don't read me wrong), if they reject the Gospel then that is they're decision.*
> 
> The test also seemed completely unnecessary, and that's coming from a very devout Catholic. The whole thing made me quite mad actually.*Do you care about where people spend eternity? Why should you get mad if I'm sharing the truth with people? The Bible says the gospel will offend people, I expect that...but I still need to obey Christ and share the Gospel* What about all of those people that do not worship God, but never break any of the Ten Commandments? Is there really no mercy for them? *You must read what the Bible says for the answer....all "good works" without Christare as Filthy rags.*
> 
> I have my own beliefs*are you a Catholic?* but I am quite happy to let everyone else do what they believe as it's their lives. This questionnaire did not do the same.*Did you take the test?*


I wrote in Bold^^^^^
~Ivy~


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## ErinaStars

DancingArabian said:


> If heaven and god were real then you would have sinners in heaven. They only need repent and they are forgiven. It doesn't erase their sin as if it never happened. The sin still occurred. The person is just forgiven for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So then do you believe that something created something out of nothing? Look at the creation around us, your conscious tells you there is a Creator.


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## ErinaStars

DancingArabian said:


> Absurd.
> 
> Most of the questions have nothing to do with if you're a "good person" or not, but rather if you're a "good" Christian or not*Incorrect, you'd have to read everything to make that statement about the test. *. Being a good person has nothing to do with how well you follow the rules of one particular religion.*Yes it does...*



Did you take the whole test?


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## flytobecat

So I took the test and just as I thought I'm not a good person.


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## ErinaStars

Saddlebag said:


> I'm with Rosie on this one. If you believe you will go to heaven, perhaps you'd be interested in knowing that there are many convicted killers there*Do you know that God says if you have hated someone(at some point or another) that is like murder in God's eyes? What would that make people who hate other people?????*. When someone gets the death sentence, he has only to declare that he has taken Jesus into his heart, and you god will forgive him. No thanks, not for me. If the killers are in heaven there must be a great bunch in hell.



~Ivanna~


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> So then do you believe that something created something out of nothing? Look at the creation around us, your conscious tells you there is a Creator.


Do NOT presume to tell me what I do and do not believe. You're being very pushy with your beliefs like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ErinaStars

flytobecat said:


> So I took the test and just as I thought I'm not a good person.


So are you Guilty or Innocent in God's eyes then? Does that concern you that if you died today you would go to Hell? Because by your own admission you are not a good person...

Thanks for taking the test, what did you think of it?
~Ivy~


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> Did you take the whole test?


I did.

Your test is set up to fail people who do not share exactly your beliefs, however.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> .Yes He will forgive, so many people celebrate Christmas and they don't even know what it means, God sent His only son to earth to die for US, to save us from our sins, God's GIFT to us! John 1:19 What we need to do is Repent, Turn away from our sins(When we have the Holy Spirit in us we have new desires, we no longer want to commit sin, we still do though but God is abounding in mercy and love.)


So many CHRISTIANS celebrate Christmas and don't know what it means. Christmas existed long before Christianity did. People already celebrated the solstice. When the church started invading lands, they assigned a Christian holiday tag to the season because people would be celebrating *anyway* and not because of Christianity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ErinaStars

DancingArabian said:


> Do NOT presume to tell me what I do and do not believe. You're being very pushy with your beliefs like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am so sorry! I certainly did not mean to come across that way, please excuse and forgive me...I should have asked you what you believed first, I'm sorry.

Assuming, always a dangerous thing to do, thanks for pointing that out, will you forgive me please(?), I can tell you honestly I did not mean to be pushy, assuming is a fault of mine (my brothers also tell me that "Ivy...your assuming.....")...

What do you believe DancingArabian? 

~Ivy~


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> I am so sorry! I certainly did not mean to come across that way, please excuse and forgive me...I should have asked you what you believed first, I'm sorry.
> 
> Assuming, always a dangerous thing to do, thanks for pointing that out, will you forgive me please(?), I can tell you honestly I did not mean to be pushy, assuming is a fault of mine (my brothers also tell me that "Ivy...your assuming.....")...
> 
> What do you believe DancingArabian?
> 
> ~Ivy~


I believe in different things than you do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ErinaStars

DancingArabian said:


> So many CHRISTIANS celebrate Christmas and don't know what it means.*They are not true Christians then.* Christmas existed long before Christianity did. People already celebrated the solstice. When the church started invading lands, they assigned a Christian holiday tag to the season because people would be celebrating *anyway* and not because of Christianity.*I know they celebrated the tree(our family does not, it's pagan), I'm talking about the birth of Christ.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Written in bold above....


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## ErinaStars

DancingArabian said:


> I believe in different things than you do.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A lot of people do....I agree with you!


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> Originally Posted by DancingArabian:
> So many CHRISTIANS celebrate Christmas and don't know what it means.They are not true Christians then. Christmas existed long before Christianity did. People already celebrated the solstice. When the church started invading lands, they assigned a Christian holiday tag to the season because people would be celebrating *anyway* and not because of Christianity.I know they celebrated the tree(our family does not, it's pagan), I'm talking about the birth of Christ.
> Posted via Mobile Device


He was allegedly born in something like August, not December. Technically, most if not all of winter celebration at Christmas time is pagan, since there is not a Christian holiday then. The only holiday is the epiphany which is Jan 6. A Christmas tree is not of Christian origin so if you want to be a hard liner about it, you shouldn't have one either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ErinaStars

DancingArabian said:


> He was allegedly born in something like August, not December. Technically, most if not all of winter celebration at Christmas time is pagan, since there is not a Christian holiday then. The only holiday is the epiphany which is Jan 6. A Christmas tree is not of Christian origin so if you want to be a hard liner about it, you shouldn't have one either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We give gifts in remembrance of the GIFT on that day....


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> A lot of people do....I agree with you!


No...you really don't. And that's okay - I don't need your validation of my beliefs. However to come on here and tell people what we believe is condescending. Look at the tone of your posts. They are riddled with judgement. Is that really what your religion wants you to be doing? To make people feel spoken down to? Because that's what you're doing.

It's fine to have beliefs and it's fine to want to share them if someone expresses interest. This thread however is just about you promoting your beliefs and has nothing to do with whether or not someone is really a good person. A good person has nothing to do with what you believe happens to you when you die or where you believe everything came from. It doesn't have anything to do with how you follow a set of arbitrary rules.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## flytobecat

ErinaStars said:


> So are you Guilty or Innocent in God's eyes then? Does that concern you that if you died today you would go to Hell? Because by your own admission you are not a good person...
> 
> Thanks for taking the test, what did you think of it?
> ~Ivy~


I feel regret for things I've done, and I'm sure I could be a better person. I pray that my shortcomings will be understood. Guilt or innocence, not my judgement to make.


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## SouthernTrails

.



> This test is designed to answer 2 questions:
> Are you a good person according to God's standards?
> And if so, are you good enough to go to heaven?


I will try not to preach too much :lol:

As a Christian I find this "Test" offensive

Being good is not what gets you to Heaven

Nothing in the Test mentions Salvation

This type of Fire and Brimstone is not what Christianity is all about, IMO

As with all Religions it's followers have different opinions of course, so to each their own beliefs or interpretation of those beliefs.

We cannot force anyone to adhere to our beliefs, whether it is a Religious belief, non-religious belief or a beliefs in ANYTHING (horse training, saving the whales, marriage, etc.), so great care must be used in how you state your beliefs. JMHO

.


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## hoiski

I thought the test was an oversimplification based on a few verses of scripture taken out of context of the whole gospel. I'm grateful to know I will be judged by a perfect, just, and merciful God based on His whole gospel and my whole self. Not by imperfect men based on a single verse of scripture or a single act of my life. I could quote scriptures back at you, but it would be futile. Interesting, though, how so many Christians have varying beliefs and perspectives. It's a good thing we can ask God to help us know the truth and then receive confirmation in our own hearts, rather than relying solely on another man's interpretation of scriptures that have already undergone numerous translations and interpretations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel

I feel there are a large majority of people that only are good in order to be saved and live an eternal life.

As for me, I am just and kind to people because it's the right thing to do.. not to gain something.


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## aubie

ErinaStars said:


> Actually it is totally opposite of "good works"(you'd have to take the test to know:wink it says in the Bible:
> _8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast._
> Ephesians 2:8-9
> 
> So are you a good person by "God's" standards or by 'your" own?


Ok I took it. And it was as I expected. While I respect your views and effort, this test, like the tracts people give out are drive by Christianity. I get the go out and spread the Word part. I think the let your light so shine method is more effective. As for me being a good person, I fully understand that I am far from perfect. It's difficult for me to talk about myself because in real life I don't. But on here there is no other way to communicate with out saying I or me

As far as I understand Christianity, God is interested in the condition of your heart. Jesus spoke of 3 things. That you love God. That you love your neighbor as thy self, and that when you have the opportunity when you encounter the least of theses that what you do, you do also unto Him. I try. I am kind, care for other people, am very non judgemental-which was the overall tone of this test. Again I am not criticizing you or your effors.


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## pbeebs

I did not take the test, but I looked at it. At my church (I am southern baptist), we studied something similar in a series of DVDs called "way of the master" and it's a way to tell people about God in a more eye opening way. and this is how we learned it:
It is a series of questions to show that by nature we are all by nature sinful people, it's not actually to see if we are a good person. By the Bibles standards, no one is really a good person...because... Have you ever told one lie? Yes. How many truths does it take to take back that one lie? You can't. So you are a liar. How many times have you looked at another person in lust other then your husband or wife? Can you take that back? No, you're an adulterer. By nature, because of sin and Adam and Eve, we are sinful people. We need God and we need a Savior. Without forgiveness because we are inherently sinful, we would be going to Hell. But because of Gods grace in sending his son, we can get forgiveness.


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## jaydee

So what about all of the religions that don't believe in the Christians perspective of God and Jesus Christ?
Will they automatically be rejected from Heaven?
Christianity does not have a monopoly on 'being good'.


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## Saddlebag

ErinaStars, the Bible has been written, rewritten again and again as it was translated into many lanuages. It is very difficult to translate exact meanings when going from one language to another. The literal translation may be the same but the context can be lost. What you are reading is a version that King James approved. It was not written by God or Jesus but church men trying to gain control over the masses. For millennia kings and churches have vied for power. All of them want your money.


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## SouthernTrails

jaydee said:


> So what about all of the religions that don't believe in the Christians perspective of God and Jesus Christ?
> Will they automatically be rejected from Heaven?
> Christianity does not have a monopoly on 'being good'.


Every Religion has its code of conduct you might say, many believe in an after life that is not considered Heaven or Hell.

A Preacher once explained a unique idea of Heaven and Hell.

Heaven is your soul or spiritual essence being in the presence of God

Hell is your soul or spiritual essence being banished from the presence of God

.


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## Foxhunter

What a load of twaddle! 
Neither of my parents were perfect. They were not church goers although they were Christian. 
My Mum cared and nursed so many elderly people who had no one else to tend to their needs and not just for a couple of weeks but for years. 
My Dad would shop for those that could not get out to do it themselves, he would call on the less a led to see if they were all right. He would do odd jobs for them and frequently they were a lot younger than him.

Do I believe that because they didn't read the bible, attend church regularly stole things even as children, told lies that they have not entered Heaven?

Sorry but I have found, as did my parents that all,to often those that go to church and preach the good word, do a lot less for fellow humans than those that do not follow the rules.

My Mum was told that an elderly lady she had cared for for years was wandering up the road, (this woman had dementia and was now in a nursing home) Mum just pulled on a coat and went to get her. It was a bitterly cold day and Mill, the lady only had on a skirt and a blouse and was blue with cold. Mum gave her the coat and was walking, very slowly back to the home.
As they got to the corner so who should come out of the shop but the Methodist Minister. mum called out to him asking if he could give them a lift to the home, a distance of less than half a mile. He looked at them both, got in his car and drove off.
Mill had attended his church for years, she cleaned, arranged the flowers and ran the church hall. Never once since she was in the home odd he ever visit her.
A young lad, with several facial piercings, immediately offered them a lift which was gratefully accepted. Whilst Mum returned Mil
Inside the home, he waited and drove Mum back to her home. He refused recompense. 
Now, who is more likely to enter the Gates of Heaven?
It took a lot to get Mother riled but, that evening when the Minister was taking a service, she went to the church and told him, and the congregation, exactly what they could do with their so called Christianity. The Minister tried to say he didn't recognise them but that was not truthful. If people like this Minister are telling me what I should be doing to get into Heaven then I would rather go to Hell because all my friends will be there!


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## ErinaStars

DancingArabian said:


> No...you really don't. And that's okay - I don't need your validation of my beliefs. However to come on here and tell people what we believe is condescending. Look at the tone of your posts. They are riddled with judgement. Is that really what your religion wants you to be doing? To make people feel spoken down to? Because that's what you're doing.
> 
> It's fine to have beliefs and it's fine to want to share them if someone expresses interest. This thread however is just about you promoting your beliefs and has nothing to do with whether or not someone is really a good person. A good person has nothing to do with what you believe happens to you when you die or where you believe everything came from. It doesn't have anything to do with how you follow a set of arbitrary rules.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ok, I think you didn't get what I was saying...I wasn't agreeing with your believe (How could I if I don't know what you believe in?), I said I agree with what you said...and I quoted you. 
In short that you and I believe something different. 
You said: "Your posts are riddled with judgment."
No they are not, who am I to judge other people? By their own admission people admit they are not perfect...nobody is. 
God says in the Bible: "do not judge lest ye be judged". You were just Judgeing me in your post.
Please....do not judge the motive of my heart by saying what you said in the last part of your post...refering to me as you did....only Almighty God can judge the heart. 
I care you Dancing Arabins, about where you spend eternity...will you at least think about it?
~Ivy~
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ErinaStars

Foxhunter said:


> What a load of twaddle!
> Neither of my parents were perfect. They were not church goers although they were Christian.
> My Mum cared and nursed so many elderly people who had no one else to tend to their needs and not just for a couple of weeks but for years.
> My Dad would shop for those that could not get out to do it themselves, he would call on the less a led to see if they were all right. He would do odd jobs for them and frequently they were a lot younger than him.
> 
> Do I believe that because they didn't read the bible, attend church regularly stole things even as children, told lies that they have not entered Heaven?
> 
> Sorry but I have found, as did my parents that all,to often those that go to church and preach the good word, do a lot less for fellow humans than those that do not follow the rules.
> 
> My Mum was told that an elderly lady she had cared for for years was wandering up the road, (this woman had dementia and was now in a nursing home) Mum just pulled on a coat and went to get her. It was a bitterly cold day and Mill, the lady only had on a skirt and a blouse and was blue with cold. Mum gave her the coat and was walking, very slowly back to the home.
> As they got to the corner so who should come out of the shop but the Methodist Minister. mum called out to him asking if he could give them a lift to the home, a distance of less than half a mile. He looked at them both, got in his car and drove off.
> Mill had attended his church for years, she cleaned, arranged the flowers and ran the church hall. Never once since she was in the home odd he ever visit her.
> A young lad, with several facial piercings, immediately offered them a lift which was gratefully accepted. Whilst Mum returned Mil
> Inside the home, he waited and drove Mum back to her home. He refused recompense.
> Now, who is more likely to enter the Gates of Heaven?
> It took a lot to get Mother riled but, that evening when the Minister was taking a service, she went to the church and told him, and the congregation, exactly what they could do with their so called Christianity. The Minister tried to say he didn't recognise them but that was not truthful. If people like this Minister are telling me what I should be doing to get into Heaven then I would rather go to Hell because all my friends will be there!


Sounds like your mom had quite an experience! They (the methodiest preacher that you mentioned) are what you call fake Christians. 
You can't use that example for Christianity, it is a misreprsentaion of what TRUE Christians believe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Houston

I did not take this test because I am not religious.

But to answer, yes I believe I am a good person. Why? Because I cause no intentional harm to others and feel like I am a constructive member of society. 

No test needed.


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## ErinaStars

Saddlebag said:


> ErinaStars, the Bible has been written, rewritten again and again as it was translated into many lanuages. It is very difficult to translate exact meanings when going from one language to another. The literal translation may be the same but the context can be lost. What you are reading is a version that King James approved. It was not written by God or Jesus but church men trying to gain control over the masses. For millennia kings and churches have vied for power. All of them want your money.


"all scripture is "inspired by God", and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for insruction in rightousness....."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## barrelbeginner

WOW. I took the test and all I have to say is.. I think I'm a good person. I have never intentionally hurt someone or anything like that.. But oh well.. 

I'm not going to change my 'life style' because a web questionairre told me I wasn't going to heaven...


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## Foxhunter

ErinaStars said:


> Sounds like your mom had quite an experience! They (the methodiest preacher that you mentioned) are what you call fake Christians.
> You can't use that example for Christianity, it is a misreprsentaion of what TRUE Christians believe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ah, but according to the test they would rank far higher than I, or my Mum would. 

The whole thing about religion is that it gives mankind rules to live by. The Quran runs on a parallel to the Bible, Christian, Muslim and Judaism faiths were started by Abraham. Didn't he just open a can of worms?

According to the bible, God created Heaven and Earth on seven days, science says otherwise but what is a day in evolution? That is the clever part, that they got the process of evolution correct. 

Many of the stories in the Bible have been proven possible by modern science. The parting of the Red Sea when the Jews were escaping persecution could well have been possible caused by an earthquake around that time. Mistranslated was that the Red Sea was the Red Reeds a large marsh area close to the Red Sea which many scientists believe was where they crossed.

I could go on and on. I do believe in a God, I do believe that our souls go on when we die, I do believe in reincarnation. 
No matter what religion one follows it makes sense that people follow the rules of that religion non of which tells of killing other men.


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## Fort fireman

According to the test I'm going to hell. Along with 99.999999999% of the other people that took this test. I'll see you all there. Of course I know I'm not perfect ,never claimed to be, and understand that noone is but i try. Thats gotta count for something.:lol:

P.S. If anybody answer that they never lied they just did on the test. See YOU there to. You know who you are.


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## Foxhunter

Heck FF I thought that you were perfick! 

There was a very good Irish comedian on TV many years ago and he was always taking the mick out of religion but never rudely. At the end of his show he would always say "May your God go with you." Which I always thought was a good way to cover all faiths.


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## barrelbeginner

Oh gosh. What a relief. I thought I was the only one... Whew..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clava

Foxhunter said:


> Heck FF I thought that you were perfick!
> 
> There was a very good Irish comedian on TV many years ago and he was always taking the mick out of religion but never rudely. At the end of his show he would always say "May your God go with you." Which I always thought was a good way to cover all faiths.


 
Dave Allen  I liked him.

With regards to the "test", I do not judge good and bad by how well I adhere to the Commandments so it is irrelevant to me.


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## jaydee

Fort fireman said:


> According to the test I'm going to hell. Along with 99*.999999999% of the other people that took this test. I'll see* *you all there*. Of course I know I'm not perfect ,never claimed to be, and understand that noone is but i try. Thats gotta count for something.:lol:
> 
> P.S. If anybody answer that they never lied they just did on the test. See YOU there to. You know who you are.


I'll save you a seat if I get there before you!!!


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## myhorseisthebest

I did not finish the test, s that may be why it sounded the way it did, you are right we don't get to Heaven by good works. We must trust God, because it is His gift. 

I am very sorry I sounded so critical, I did finish the test, that is why I said what I said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> Ok, I think you didn't get what I was saying...I wasn't agreeing with your believe (How could I if I don't know what you believe in?), I said I agree with what you said...and I quoted you.
> In short that you and I believe something different.
> You said: "Your posts are riddled with judgment."
> No they are not, who am I to judge other people? By their own admission people admit they are not perfect...nobody is.
> God says in the Bible: "do not judge lest ye be judged". You were just Judgeing me in your post.
> Please....do not judge the motive of my heart by saying what you said in the last part of your post...refering to me as you did....only Almighty God can judge the heart.
> I care you Dancing Arabins, about where you spend eternity...will you at least think about it?
> ~Ivy~
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is nothing to think about. I will spend eternity no where. Once I die, I will cease to be and therefore can't spend time anywhere.

If it makes you feel better to say you care about me, by all means do so. I disagree with you without question and as much as you believe you care about me, I believe quite the opposite.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch

I see that test as an example of everything I dislike about most ORGANIZED religious groups. It is nothing more that an attempt to totally control people through the use of fear and intimidation.

This test is everything Jesus stood against. Salvation is totally ignored there and Jesus would even fail that test. I would think assaulting people in a church, even if they were defiling it through commerce, would have earned him an unredeemable point in that test. 

If your hard line of Christianity suits you, so be it. However, feeling free to come here and imply we are all going to hell if we don't pass this *unpassable* test is as unChristian as it gets.


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> Sounds like your mom had quite an experience! They (the methodiest preacher that you mentioned) are what you call fake Christians.
> You can't use that example for Christianity, it is a misreprsentaion of what TRUE Christians believe.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All Christians I've ever met claimed to be true Christians. What makes you more right than anyone else?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fort fireman

Foxhunter said:


> Heck FF I thought that you were perfick!
> 
> There was a very good Irish comedian on TV many years ago and he was always taking the mick out of religion but never rudely. At the end of his show he would always say "May your God go with you." Which I always thought was a good way to cover all faiths.


Ahhh! That is a common misconception among those that know me. I am after all so very close to perfect that it is easy to mistake. However I can assure you I am not perfect. See you at the welcoming party you know where. :twisted:


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## Saranda

Honey, being a good person just doesn't work this way. God is silent, God is loving. God does not write in bold letters to carry across his message, nor does he try to convince. God waits, God is patient, Got inspires us to find our own ways, to see when and what we want to see, when we are ready to see and understand. We are born to create, to seek, to question, not to follow blindly, to fear sin or punishment. We are made to love and to accept, and also to doubt, to hurt, to get our knees bruised and to feel lonely at times, when nobody seems to understand what good persons we are trying to be. 

Being a good person cannot be measured. It is not a status you achieve, it does not carry a bonus, like getting into Heaven. The fact is - we're creating that Heaven, right here and now, by how in peace we are with the world around us, and by creating more peace by what we are good at - not by judging people that are simply good at other things, which may or may not be in line with what we believe in. 

Spoken by a Luciferian.


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## WhyAHorseOfCourse

Wow, now I know why so many people on the internet label Christians the way they do :lol: 

I didn't take the test because people can't really judge such things. I don't think anyone can be labeled as "good" because technically my "good" could be defined differently then yours. There's no "true" good, just our individual idea of it.

It might help if you guys realize most of the stuff you are arguing about is just an _opinion. _It's kinda like arguing about tomatoes tasting good or bad. :wink:

JMO


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## rhosroyalvelvet

ErinaStars said:


> What would you think of me 9 please humor me for a sec...)if I was fishing, siting on a rock near a waterfall and I saw some people in a boat going past me heading towards the waterfall and they were clueless, should I not say anything because I didn't want to Offend them? No, I would tell them, and warn them.
> 
> I'm just sharing with you the gospel, the GOOD News!
> You know what is the most killer in the World.....Death....10 out of 10 die(its a fact=), so will you please just think about it?
> 
> ~Ivy~
> 
> P.S. Thanks for taking the test!


Ok how would telling someone that a waterfall was right ahead of them offend anyone at all. Lying so as not to offend someone is like saying to some one who spent hours baking buns but they taste awful that their buns are lovely. all I said was about what the test said not in the religion in general. 

it asked for forgivness and you didn't do it again. So yes you stole and then you are told you are going to hell and God will not forgive everything...Yes He will forgive, so many people celebrate Christmas and they don't even know what it means, God sent His only son to earth to die for US, to save us from our sins, God's GIFT to us! John 1:19 What we need to do is Repent, Turn away from our sins(When we have the Holy Spirit in us we have new desires, we no longer want to commit sin, we still do though but God is abounding in mercy and love.) 
And we need to place our trust in Him. 

Think of a parachute, you can say "I believe the parachute will save me", but you have to put it on, you don't jump off the plain without it! That would be crazy...just like you put on the parachute you Must put on Christ I was saying thatThe test said that God does not forgive everything and that you would go to hell not the religion.

Then you see did you give money to charity box and answer yes... Giving money to charity, going to church, and reading the Bible are all good activities--but none of them impress God. The Bible says, "and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away." (Isaiah 64:6) You do a good thing and your pelted for it. It may be to make up for bad things or you may just be a good person and they tell you this.Are you looking at God's standards or Your Own?

What?? I am saying what the test told me. It said that if you give money to charity that it does not help for any sins and that you would go to hell. What I was trying to say was that it does not know whether we gave the money out of kindness or because of guilt and either way it is a good thing to do in my mind. And all it tells us is that we will go to hell because of it.

Now read your Bible daily They just told you that that accounts for nothing in Gods eyes...God wants you to Repent, Turn from your sins, He'll give you a new heart with new desires, and put your trust in Him.

I am saying that they contradicted themselves and you tell me something completly off the point I was making. Its like me saying the sky is blue and then you say oh but cows say moo as a natural calling...

I do find this sever and vering away from the whole religious concept of love and forgivness.Not at all! But people mix the ideas, God "does" love you and He 'does" forgive you, but you need to Repent, Turn from your sins, and put your trust in Him.
The quiz said that no matter what u answered that you were going to hell and that God will not forgive everything which does veer away from the religious concept of forgiveness and love...


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## Ninamebo

I just want to say that this quiz link put a bad taste in my mouth. I haven't been able to get this thought out of my head since I took the questionnaire this morning. That sort of belittling tactic is the exact opposite of what Gods intent is. 

I am bad at putting some thoughts into words, such as this instance, but I am glad that many posters are able to describe what I was thinking, so I thank those.


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## Saddlebag

As far as historical evidence in the bible, countless stories have been written around two world wars, 911, etc but that doesn't make them bibles. They are just novels using past historical events to create stories. The bible is no different.


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## VickiRose

Well I took the test, but already knew I'd be Hell-bound before I started  See you guys there! LOL
IMHO its a judgemental test, from a judgmental segment of the Christian religion. Sorry if that offends.

I have an acquaintance that insisted my children and I were putting our souls in immortal peril, we'd be going to hell, as I am not baptised/christened and neither are they. This test reminded me of her. 

Personally I believe I'm a good person. My maxim? "If it harms none, do as you will."


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## Chokolate

Well, I guess I'll be seeing the rest of you in Hell too...seeing as according to the test practically every single person that has ever lived should be there, it'll be a pretty full party!

I took the test (as an atheist) to see what everybody was talking about, and _wow_. Of course I've stolen things, as a child everybody does. Of course I've lied...

Seeing as I want to become a politician I suppose there's no hope for me :lol:.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corazon Lock

I took the test and was unimpressed. The whole "hell" tactic was just ridiculous, the kind of Christianity that makes me sad because it scares people away rather than bringing them in.

Doesn't matter who we are. We all sin. Nobody is perfect. If we were, we would be God. And God knows that, which is why he sent Jesus to die for ALL OF OUR SINS. As long as you believe, you will get to heaven. 

I believe what God truly wants for us is to help other people and lead by example rather than these other tactics. He wants us to look out for others, feel empathy, and grow. Life is God's journey for us. It's riddled with ups and downs, like a roller coaster. Everyone handles the roller coaster differently, but God is the constant to it. We live to strengthen our relationship with Him and to get a better understanding of what He created. 

Reading the Bible and going to church isn't gonna get you to heaven either. Both are supplemental to your faith, but they don't guarantee that you are going to heaven. 

God doesn't set us up for failure either, which is what the test suggests. I believe everything that happens He makes happen for a reason to look out for us or make us stronger.

And for those of you who share a different faith or belief, that's okay! Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and beliefs. Life is all interpretation, and while I am Christian, I accept everyone for who they are religiously. It's not my place to change your mind, and frankly, trying to convince someone to believe in God is just going to drive people away. It all stems from the heart. 

One last thing: what you believe does not dictate whether we are "good" or "bad." We all have both in us. Goodness is how you choose to live your life in accordance to others and what is in your heart, not what you believe in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Clayton Taffy

Nope!!


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## SorrelHorse

Oh my lord (Sorry for the irony there) I am laughing SO hard!

I went on ahead and took the test, just to humor the thread. I answered everything honestly. When it asked me if I was innocent or guilty, I put guilty. Of course it then asked me if I am going to heaven to hell. I put hell. It says, yes, you are going to hell. It then asked me if that concerned me. I said no. This is what I got after that:


"It should concern you.

Would you sell one of your eyes for a million dollars? How about both eyes for ten million? No one in their right mind would! Your eyes are precious to you... but they are only a "window" for your soul. Your soul (your inner being, your life, your personality) looks out through those eyes. Consider how precious your eyes are... then realize that Jesus said that Hell is so horrible that you would be better off tearing out your own eyes than ending up there for all eternity (Mark 9:43-48).

Perhaps you feel safe because you don't believe in Hell. This can be likened to standing in the middle of a busy highway and shouting, "I don't believe in trucks!" Your belief or disbelief in trucks will not change reality. The same applies in this situation. Your disbelief in Hell will not cause it to cease to exist. God has given us HIS WORD on the existence and purpose of Hell... LOOK HERE to see what God says in the Bible about Hell."



I'm not here to defend myself. But let's just have a look at my reasons for my answers, hmm?

I've stolen before. One time that comes to mind was an accident. (There was a vendor with business cards out front, and attached to the card were little tiny clay pins the size of my fingertip. I thought they were meant to go with the card, so I took one. Turns out they were meant to be sold...But by the time I found the price sticker we were many hours away, headed home.) The next couple was when I was a little kid, I would take quarters out of my dad's coin jar so i could buy ice cream on the way home. And I have some of my friend's clothes, but that's less of "stealing" and more of, "She came over, left them, and they just never found their way back." So, I said yes to stealing.


Lying? Yep, that too. I have flat lied to people. And I'll admit to it. I'm egotistical. Prideful. Sometimes online when I was younger I would make myself sound better than I was at things. I don't behave that way anymore, but I can recite to you an entire life that isn't mine that I created when I was thirteen for forums. As I grew up, I found that the experience I gained didn't make lying necessary to get anyone's attention. And, my own insecurities have resolved themselves enough where I can say "Yeah, I screwed up, I don't know what to do, and I need help."


I have given to charity. But of course, according to that test, God doesn't care. I've run at Run4Hope barrel races, volunteered at various other benefit things, given money to people who needed it, and let kids frequently ride my pony free of charge provided they are safe about it.


I do not read the bible. I do not go to church. I do not recognize that there is heaven or hell, or God. I sin. I support gay rights. I could continue to list all the things that I have done that "God" would not approve of.

But here's the thing. I love myself. I love other people. I have stayed up all night on a webcam, with a girl literally holding a gun to her head, and talked her through those suicidal thoughts. Another girl i delayed my own homework to help her with her own, because she lived in an abusive household and couldn't get the help she needed. I have taken on "projects" where I do these things. I am always the first one to volunteer my horse if someone needs something to ride, because their horse is lame, or otherwise. I always offer to pick people up, and don't ask for any gas money in return. When my dad cheated on my Mom for five years before finally leaving, I still helped him even though I loathed everything he had done and wanted nothing more than to cut all ties and never see him again. 

I don't think I'm a great person. But I don't think I'm a bad one, either. I have enough self esteem that I don't need reassurance from anyone, let alone something that cannot be proved to me. I don't believe in faith. I believe in living life to the best of your abilities, and seeing where it leads you at the end. When I die, I hope it's the speed of my barrel horse that does it and I will greet whatever happens with acceptance.


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## Shropshirerosie

I will answer your questions ErinaStar.

*the unscientific nature of the questionnaire*

Some questionnaires are designed to find out information, to clarify, or explain, to illuminate those who commissioned the questionnaire. A well written q'aire is not constructed with a pre-judging of the outcome, and a well written q'aire is not intended to influence the completing of the questionnaire.

Yours I quickly realised wasn't one of these - yours is designed to open up a form of conversation with the reader, and to lead that person down a certain path to the conclusion that 'one needs god on one's life'.

So - I was expecting some form of scientific questionnaire (albeit a probably clumsy internet version), and I got the other. Which annoyed me because there is a certain implication that by putting me through questions leading to the discovery that 'I need god' would somehow overcome the last 43 years of education and thought that have led me to the considered position that I hold now.

*would I like to know where I am going to spend eternity?*

No, because I know I won't. When my heart stops pumping blood, and my lungs stop pumping air, my brain cells will stop firing electrical signals and I will no longer be.

*do I believe in an afterlife?*

No, for the previous stated reason.

*You should watch this when you have some time "180 The Movie" got 1 Million views in 22 days:*

Thank you for the suggestion, but as I have a strong suspicion that the film will be trying to convert me to a religion that I am not seeking, I won't be watching it.


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## Foxhunter

I think that posts like this can really stir up trouble and commend all that have replied for keeping the topic more amusing than getting riled. 

_Please keep it this way._


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## Reckyroo

Looks like i'll be seeing you all "Down There" too haha. But hopefully not for a long time - too much to do up here first 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

Of course if the beliefs of some Druids and the Buddhists are correct then I will most likely come back as a Japanese Beetle and get sprayed with bug killer on Day One by a human that was the Japanese Beetle in his/her previous existence that I sprayed with bug killer


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## DancingArabian

What do you have to do to come back as a fat, rotten pony? That's what I want to come back as if that's the case.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Damadeer

I didn't need to take the test to know that I will be spending my eternity in the fires of hell, according to Catholic/Christian beliefs.

It doesn't matter what I do, how much I give or pray. I'm a homosexual male and as such, I will burn for loving who I love.

I've always been gay. I didn't choose it nor was I "converted" by another gay person, but I firmly believe I'm just as good and just as decent as the next person. Regardless of what anyone says, allow me to toot my own horn for a moment: I volunteer, I donate to charity and I attend church regularly.

But for some reason, the religious in my family recoil as if I have the plague. I'm not allowed to attend church with them, I'm not allowed to go near their children (they fear they'll catch my "gay") and against the wishes of my parents I refuse to "pray the gay away."

Will I still go to hell, even if I've asked for forgiveness, I go to church and do everything I possibly can to make those around me happy?

I sincerely hope not.

He made us in His image, as imperfect as we are, we're still his children. All of us.
Why would he judge us as one lump of flesh? Like: Oh, this child stole an extra cookie, he burns just as the thief who stabbed and robbed a convenience store clerk will.

There is no black and white morals. We live in a gray world. We can do good, but at some point we have "evil" feelings or thoughts. We feel hatred and spite just as we feel love and kindness. We feel because we're human and as such, we are simply strange, hairless apes trying to make sense of the world with deities and creators.

We're quite selfish in a way, to believe that we cannot exist, that *our* soul must go somewhere. That *we* simply cease to exist. Don't get me wrong I believe in ghosts and spirits, angels and demons. I believe in an afterlife, though what it is I doubt any of us will know until the final chapter.

But what I refuse to believe is that I'm any less of a "good" person for loving my fiance'. That I'm any less of a person, in spite of what the good book says. But according to my former minister, my "lifestyle" is one that can be compared to murder.

Which frankly, is a bucket of hogwash, I mean, how can the two even be compared?

Plus what give anyone the right to pick and choose passages from the bible to assert themselves over someone else? If you follow the book, it would be wise to follow all of it, not just the parts you like. You (general use) cannot pick and choose what you like, and frankly, most straight folk are no better off than us "queers" when you get down to the nittygritty.

If that's the case, none of us get to heaven and none of us ever will, so in my honest opinion, what's the use of worrying? Do good on this Earth: Help your fellow man, be gentle to his creations and be kind to each other. There's no use in worrying about something you can't change.

That's what upsets me about this faith: That everyone is grouped together and that we aren't judged as individuals. That we may judge our fellow man based on his actions, but God cannot.


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## Foxhunter

For all those that think Hell is going to be hot - please read the following.


The following is an actual question given on a University of Arizona chemistry midterm, and an actual answer turned in by a student.
The answer by one student was so ‘profound’ that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.


Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle’s Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. 
One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving, which is unlikely. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let’s look at the different religions that exist in the world today.

Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not .
Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle’s Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.


2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it? 
If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, ‘It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you,’ and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct….. …leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting ‘Oh my God.’

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED AN A+


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## Shropshirerosie

Thanks you Foxhunter for your voice of reason 

And I am now going to bow out of this thread as I was always taught to avoid religion and politics at a dinner party, and I think a nicely behaved Internet forum qualifies as a Dinner Party in this day and age.


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## aubie

I knew better to reply as well, but did so when challenged.


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## gunslinger

ErinaStars said:


> Actually it is totally opposite of "good works"(you'd have to take the test to know:wink it says in the Bible:
> _8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast._
> Ephesians 2:8-9
> 
> So are you a good person by "God's" standards or by 'your" own?


Yes, but what about the book of James?

*14* What _doth it_ profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
*15* If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
*16* And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be _ye_ warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what _doth it_ profit?
*17* Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
*18* Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
*19* Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
*20* But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
*21* Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
*22* Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
*23* And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
*24* Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


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## Walkamile

Chokolate said:


> Well, I guess I'll be seeing the rest of you in Hell too...seeing as according to the test practically every single person that has ever lived should be there, it'll be a pretty full party!
> 
> I took the test (as an atheist) to see what everybody was talking about, and _wow_. * Of course I've stolen things, as a child everybody does. Of course I've lied...*
> 
> Seeing as I want to become a politician I suppose there's no hope for me :lol:.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Don't feel bad, I according to the test will also be going to hell, and even as a child never stole anything! Or did I and I just can't remember? **** getting older! 

Someone remember to bring the marshmallows okay!


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## NorthernMama

Well gee darn, I'm going to Hell. Of course, I don't think Hell exists so that's not a problem. No surprise there. As soon as I saw the reference to God I knew it was going to be a bash against anyone not Christian based. Actually goes against Jews as well since they don't believe that Christ the Saviour has come yet, so if a Jew uses "Jesus Christ" as a term of frustration, is that swearing? 

So, yes I've lied; yes, I lusted after someone; no I don't go to church; blah, blah, blah. The only things I got "right" were that I give to charity and I don't put any other god before your god. Because I don't think there is a god at all, of any kind. So phooey. 

I guess you'd better go and tell all the people and animals that I have helped in my life that I'm bad. And you can tell my Mom that I lied to her about scratching the dryer. You can also tell MDH about all my lustful thoughts that weren't about him both before and after marriage. But he already knows so not sure there's a point to that.

Man, it just drives me batty when someone tries to neatly pack away good vs. evil and then use religion and a specific religion's "rules" as the backup. Let me guess, you think Sunday is the Sabbath too, right? Nah, nevermind, don't answer that. I don't really care.


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## NorthernMama

Let's do this question by question:
1. *Have you ever told a lie?* Duh. Yes. Everyone has. So we're all bad because of that? Hardly.

2. *Have you given money to charity?* If you are just scratching by on your own, without enough money to feed your own family and you don't give to charity, does that make you bad? No, it makes you a survivor. When I was in that situation, I still helped people though in other ways. Apparently that doesn't count... typical institutional Catholic outlook: it's all about the money.

3. *Have you gone to church regularly?* So, if I sit in church hungover that's better than not going at all? Or if I go and say "Amen," sing the songs, nod my head and cross myself at the right times, I am a better person? Just because I make the motions? And for those people that are Christians, church isn't a building, it's anywhere and anytime you choose to worship.

4. *Have you ever stolen anything (no matter how small)?* Duh, yes. I don't know anyone that hasn't. Though it's possible there are people out there that haven't. So, I stole a bubblegum when I was 5. I stole a blouse when I was 12. I'm 50 now, but I'm a terrible person because of that.

5. *Have you ever used "God," "Jesus," or "Christ," as a curse word?* Yup, oh evil me. I do respect, or try to respect whatever environment I'm in though. So when I am working with someone who is Christian, I chose my language appropriately; just as I chose my language appropriately when visiting my elderly neighbour, my crazy (literally) aunt, or around small children. That doesn't matter though because when I'm alone or with someone who doesn't care, I have definitely said "Oh, Jesus!" when something doesn't work out right. I've said a lot worse too (as measured by our current society), but apparently that doesn't matter either.

6. *Have you made it a practice to read the Bible regularly?* Nope; tried a few times but got either incredibly bored or incredibly confused. Need a group to discuss it as it's read. Like the Jewish people do: they debate it endlessly. It's great. I always thought I'd like to join a bible discussion group, but anytime I've found one, it's been all about religion instead of about the stories in the bible. I think I need to go to a university for what I am looking for. Maybe when I retire and have more of my brain left available at the end of the day. 

7. *Have you ever looked at someone and had lustful thoughts?* Well, I should hope so! Sure would make a for a boring marriage without it. Lust leads to sex which is a healthy part of the human condition. Sex without lust? Boring... why would we bother if it wasn't fun? Out of duty? Pleeeeze... duty to whom? God? Ya, uh huh. I think God figured out he'd get more results if He made it fun for us. (trying to go a bit along the God line with that)
8. *Have you ever broken the first Commandment? *Nope. As mentioned above. However what about the millions of people that don't believe in your God? or just one God? Because their words and frame of reference are different, they are evil? Nevermind the good that they do every day in their lives? 

Most of the world isn't a "Good person according to God's standards." Most of the world doesn't live by the Christian God. I never could fathom the narrow-mindedness of organized religion.


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## gunslinger

I spent a couple of years trying to figure out why the Christian church is in the state it's in today. I spent years looking at the faults of the church rather than looking at the strength of the Church. Through out the history of the Christian church the governing body has done a lot of things to destroy itself from within. While I will continue to seek, the one thing that's apparent to me is there is one who rules the earth that seeks to destroy......read my signature line as that pretty well sums it up.

Satan's mission is to destroy the church, destroy us, and destroy the kingdom of God. 

I'm thinking god knows we're going to sin....and is standing ready to forgive should we ask.

There is a perpetual cycle of sin and redemption. Even the mightiest among us fall.

I guess that's the good thing....we aren't expected to not sin, but we are expected to pay penance, repent and ask forgiveness....or at least, that's the way I believe it works....

Maybe that's why is seems hypocritical to some, as I think we all know the struggle to be perfect yet we are unable to achieve it..... and thus fall short of the glory of God. 

The glory of God is he's reachable without being perfect...all you have to do is seek in order to find....

We can't look into the hearts of men to see if the spirit lives there or not. I can't speak for Phil, but he, like all of us, will one day stand before god and be judged....we will all ask for mercy....

So if this were survivor, would you vote Phil off the island?


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## Cat

7. Have you ever looked at someone and had lustful thoughts? 

Love how there is no differentiation between spouse vs others. Just "someone". 

I find the quiz narrow-minded at best.

Hope you find peace - whatever your beliefs.


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## Jessabel

Well, that was ridiculous. 

It's ironic how some religious groups deem to judge everyone who doesn't share their beliefs, when some of the worst atrocities in our history have been committed in the name of the very same god. 

The First Commandment thing especially got me. Christianity as a whole is heavily based off of Paganism, which is a polytheistic faith. Christmas and Easter were taken from ancient Norse and Germanic holidays. The literal belief in the First Commandment fueled senseless mass murder in the Middle Ages and continues to breed hatred today. Tolerance would be the moral of the story, I suppose. 

Since you like to quote the Bible, here's one: 

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged. Condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned. Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven." - Luke 6:37


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## wildandfree

I didn't read this thread but I was not at all fond of that test. I am not a religious person though so that may have something to do with it. Everything in it seemed incredibly judgmental. I did take it though, and according to that test I am definitely going to hell. I found it funny when I pressed the button to say I am not worried about that (as I don't believe in it) that it said I should be. I am all for practicing and being passionate about your religion but that test was very pushy.


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## BornToRun

I'm Agnostic, but I took the test anyway.
How biased. 
I found it to be rather closed minded, and even a little insulting. 
Had a good laugh when it told me going to hell should concern me, though ...


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## Allison Finch

Hmmmm....looks like the OP is afraid to associate with us sinners on this thread any more. Oh, well.......


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## Bagheera

The test pretty much told me I was going to hell. I'm a sinner. That test was just the clarity I needed in my life. *rolls eyes* I guess I'll be sitting in hell sipping bloody marys when I die. Maybe I can even get a tan on my pasty skin. ****!


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## ErinaStars

Allison Finch said:


> Hmmmm....looks like the OP is afraid to associate with us sinners on this thread any more. Oh, well.......


 
Nobody wants to speak nicely(Yes, you can even speak nicely when you have differences like these), I have been bashed by so many people at this point..... I did not want to argue if nobody is willing to listen or talk lovingly anyway. 

All I can say is that...I tried...and I was met with Score, Sarcasm, Ridicule and Jokes. I can't say I was surprised though, I was expecting it(John 15:18-19).

I'm praying for y'all! =)
~Ivy~


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## ErinaStars

aubie said:


> Ok I took it. And it was as I expected. While I respect your views and effort, this test, like the tracts people give out are drive by Christianity. I get the go out and spread the Word part. I think the let your light so shine method is more effective. As for me being a good person, I fully understand that I am far from perfect. It's difficult for me to talk about myself because in real life I don't. But on here there is no other way to communicate with out saying I or me
> 
> As far as I understand Christianity, God is interested in the condition of your heart. Jesus spoke of 3 things. That you love God. That you love your neighbor as thy self, and that when you have the opportunity when you encounter the least of theses that what you do, you do also unto Him. I try. I am kind, care for other people, am very non judgemental-which was the overall tone of this test. Again I am not criticizing you or your effors.


 

Thank you for (as you put it)


> not criticizing you or your efforts


I appreciate you didn't bash me, and at the same time disagreed with me nicely, I really appreciate it. 
Of all the post I can think of that were kind and not bashing of me, yours comes to mind. =)

~Ivy~


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## jaydee

I think when you believe you are actually trying to help people what you are really doing is coming over a bit preachy and pious.
The best way to influence anyone to follow a certain lifestyle is to set an example of being a good, caring person because that was really what Christ was all about. Following all the rules in the Bible won't do that for anyone if it isn't in their heart to really 'love' their fellow human beings because they're spending so much time judging them for a lot things that mostly don't matter if they don't hurt anyone


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## Zexious

Wow. That was a waste of a couple minutes. xD

Firstly, I do not think that this is an appropriate place to post something like that. It is obviously accusatory, obviously meant to incite argument... I don't think that was your intention, OP, but that was clearly the intention of the "test". 

I am agnostic, but I have read the bible as part of the western canon. That is, not as a religious text but as a collection of stories. That is to say, I am familiar with the basics of the religion.
If there is a god, I do not think that how many times you read the bible, or how many times you went to church will really matter. What matters is whether you are TRULY a good person, and not good determined by this quiz. Good people make mistakes. Good people lie. Good people love (uh-oh! 'Dat lustful gaze!). Sorry to burst that bubble for 'ya.

See y'all in hell ;D


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## Cat

Did anyone go back and take the test using fake answers to see if it would say something positive? Nope - no matter what you are putting in - you're going to hell.


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## NorthernMama

Wow. I just did as Cat suggested. What an utter lot of crap. It is designed to set you up for failure. Nice religious support there <huge sarcasm> 

Again, typical of organized Catholics - no one is good enough for them. But you can probably buy your way to heaven anyway, so just get money any way you can, give it all to the Catholic church and you're good to go.


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## SorrelHorse

Sometimes I like to run through my small, religious town shouting things such as this:

"I kissed a girl once!"
"DAY-YUM, Look at the abs on that Hemsworth boy!"
"I killed thirty seven people on Skyrim today!
"I LISTEN TO ASIAN MUSIC AND DYED MY HAIR PINK TODAY."

anddd various other things that they all hate. That's what they get for telling me I was going to hell when I was eleven. Yes, ELEVEN. Good for me I was cynical and egotistical before I even know what those words meant. 



dem bisexual asian-loving whipper-snappers with their evil witch worshipping Skyrim game and dyed hair. They're ruining the quality of life for the rest of us!

:rofl: :rofl:


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## MyJumper

Zexious said:


> Wow. That was a waste of a couple minutes. xD
> I am agnostic, but I have read the bible as part of the western canon. That is, not as a religious text but as a collection of stories. That is to say, I am familiar with the basics of the religion.
> If there is a god, I do not think that how many times you read the bible, or how many times you went to church will really matter. What matters is whether you are TRULY a good person, and not good determined by this quiz. Good people make mistakes. Good people lie. Good people love (uh-oh! 'Dat lustful gaze!). Sorry to burst that bubble for 'ya.
> 
> See y'all in hell ;D


Ok, I didn't read though all the quotes, but wanted to put my 2 cents in.

Firstly, that test is NOT done by Catholics. It's done by Bible-believing Christians. Yes, there is a HUGE difference between the true groups.

Zexious, what is your definition of a 'Good Person'. Mistakes and sins are totally different things. Sin is something against God, mistakes are things like accidentally breaking your friend's phone, spilling coffee on your boss, etc. Sins are things like stealing, murder, lies, jealousy, anger, etc.

You are right the Bible is not a religious book, but it is not a collection of stories. It is a history, science, prophetic and holy book. It was inspired by God as a way to show us how to behave, it is God's instructions to us. It is unlike the Koran, the WatchTower or the Book of Mormons. The Bible has been proven through archaeology and through it's prophesies. 

Did any of you read the end of the test? You have to accept Jesus as your savior and repent of your sins. You _cannot_ buy your way into heaven or do enough good deeds to earn your way into heaven. The only way is though Jesus, as that test is trying to show you.


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## Zexious

^My definition of a "good person", is someone who puts others before themselves. Someone who respects all living creatures, and their points of view. Someone that works hard for themselves, and those that they love. That someone doesn't have to be perfect. Some lies are justified--if someone worked hard to purchase a gift that you hated, would you tell them that it was atrocious? Maybe. I certainly wouldn't. To me, a lie on my conscious is worth protecting someone that it may hurt. In some cases.
That someone can "look at people with lustful thoughts". That doesn't effect anyone but themselves. xD Furthermore, anything that happens between two consenting adults isn't any business of mine.

I'm wondering how the Bible can be both "not a religious" but also a "holy" book. Also, comparing it to some of the texts that you have doesn't make sense. Mormons also believe in and read the bible, The Book of Mormon is just another text.
When I read the bible, I saw stories. This is my opinion of it.

I did read to the end of the test, and I don't agree with it. 
Again, I am agnostic. For those on this thread that don't know what that means, it means that I am willing to acknowledge the possible existence of a higher being. I just don't know who or what that higher being is. I am not all knowing. I am human and make mistakes (and sins). That said, I'm not interested in buying my way into heaven. 
If God is more interested in my weekly attendance to a building than to what kind of life I lived, then that's not a God I'm interested in spending eternity with anyway.


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## NorthernMama

MyJumper, I think that some of your comments were directed to me or as a result of what I posted.
Re: my Catholic comments - sorry, I was being sarcastic. I didn't indicate that and should have.

Jealousy and Anger are sins? These are valid human emotions and reactions. 

I really should sign off this thread for my own sensibilities... I just keep coming back; like driving past an accident: you don't want to look, but you do...


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## Red Gate Farm

From the Living Waters webpage (the people wo put out this test)
*Vision*

Inspiring and equipping Christians in fulfilling the Great Commission.
*Mission*

In our passion to glorify God, magnify His grace, and exalt His Son, Jesus Christ, it is our mission to serve the local church by assisting in globally educating God's people in the principles of biblical evangelism; Exhorting them to fulfill the Great Commission; and equipping them with every necessary resource along the way. We do this primarily through the teaching and preaching of God's Word, strategic conferences, academic and practical training opportunities, networking platforms, and the production and dissemination of various printed and audio/visual media.

ErinaStars, you fulfilled your mandate. You didn't really expect everyone to agree with you, did you?


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## Zexious

Nothern--Jealousy and anger actually are sins xD Except they're listed as "envy" and "wrath". 

Not in my opinion, of course. I think, like you said, every human feels these, sometimes.


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## NorthernMama

Zexious, I didn't know that. I'm going to have to stir up the supper table conversation tonight with this! Should be interesting. I'm with you on it though.


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## Saddlebag

The bible is full of prophesies that were written after the occurrences, not before. How can a sin be created against something of which there is no physical evidence of it's existence? I also have a hard time that God sacrificed his son (barbaric practise) so people wouldn't sin. Would you forfeit your child so your neighbors wouldn't sin? You'd get the death penalty.


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## SorrelHorse

To quote Russel Brand, 

"The Holy Spirit ain't got a pen!"


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## Zexious

Nothern--The other five are Lust, Pride, Gluttony, Sloth, and and Greed. That would make for an interesting dinner table discussion, let us know how it goes!


And, piggybacking off of what Saddlebag said, actual predictions that were made (be it by the bible itself, or by priests, prophets, etcetera) have been incorrect thus far. You can't really call something a prophecy when it was made /after/ the event, or when it turns out to not predict the future xD


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## MyJumper

@ NorthernMama -Haha, yes, I was referring to your comment. I didn't know you were being sarcastic, my bad. Just trying to make sure there was no confusion, as I am not catholic.
@Saddlebag, the prophesies in the Bible were all written hundreds of years before they came true. In fact, the original author was typically dead long before the prophesy came true. 

Yes, Anger and Jealousy are sins. Jesus took things one step further and taught that your thoughts are just as sinful as your actions. Anger has it's place and is at times justifiable, but for the most part it is a sinful feeling. Think about, no murderer kills his best friend, or someone he likes. People murder people they're anger with, people they hate. The same with Jealousy, you wouldn't steal from someone who you weren't jealous of. 
*Your feelings lead to thoughts, your thoughts lead to actions and your actions lead to consequences. *
Even if you didn't go so far as to murder or steal from someone, your anger or jealous will make you bitter which will ruin your relationships and eventually your life if you let it. Because you'll find it awful hard to enjoy the company of someone you are anger with and it's hard to be friends with people you're jealous of.


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## MyJumper

Zexious said:


> And, piggybacking off of what Saddlebag said, actual predictions that were made (be it by the bible itself, or by priests, prophets, etcetera) have been incorrect thus far


Actually, every prophesy that is recorded in the Bible has come true. If a prophet claimed to be from God and made *Any* mistake whatsoever, he was to be stoned to death. Any prophesy that has not come true, is talking about events in the future and will come true.


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## Incitatus32

Well I'm a bit late to this thread but I took the test (curiosity for the most part) and can honestly say that I failed miserably. MISERABLY. And that's bad considering I'm supposed to be a good catholic and all that jazz....... oh well. By MY standards I'm a good person. I like to think that I am. To me a good person is not necessarily someone who follows the bible or "God" 100% or even religious. I've met quite a few atheists who were better people than most Christians. Heck I turned away from the church and became agnostic because I couldn't stand the hipocrasy, narcissism and intolerance. I think a good person is someone who tries their best to be kind to all creatures on the earth be it man or animal and is never afraid to do the right thing. IMO any god should judge me based on how I treated others who shared my world instead of how much I believed in him. If he's gonna play those games I might be better suited to go to hell...... maybe I'd learn to keep my mouth shut? :lol:

That test was set to make people fail, took it about ten times with different answers and got the same result each time: hell. 
Northern I actually laughed at your comment about Catholics, it's so true it's scary! 
MyJumper I don't mean to come off as rude (really, honestly) but by what you said about every prophecy coming true I tend to have mixed feelings. Humanity has a vicious cycle it seems, war is always on the forefront of the mind. It doesn't take a genius to hear from someone that their neighbor struck gold in the backyard and that five people will come and try to take the gold. IMO prophets lived in this cycle, it was more prevalent and life impacting than today in some aspects. Prophecy is one of those things to me that has too many variables. God gave free will, therefore according to logic it can be prohpecied that I will go right but I may chose to go left. Same with the whole '666' and apocalypse (that's my little nerdy nod to "Good Omens" by Gaimen and Pratchett). 

Oh well, that's my two cents.


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## DancingArabian

Technically, jealousy is NOT a sin. Jealousy and envy are not the same things. Jealousy is the fear that someone will take away something you perceive as you're (like a jealous girlfriend going nuts over a female talking to her boyfriend). Envy is being unhappy with what you have and wanting what someone else has (like seeing a fancy saddle and feeling sad your saddle isn't as nice and wishing the nice saddle was yours instead).

I used "you" as a general you and not a specific you

Edited to add: Don't forget to include the seven heavenly virtues in your discussion! Chastity, Temperance, Charity, Diligence, Patience, Kindness, and Humility
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DancingArabian

MyJumper said:


> Actually, every prophesy that is recorded in the Bible has come true. If a prophet claimed to be from God and made *Any* mistake whatsoever, he was to be stoned to death. Any prophesy that has not come true, is talking about events in the future and will come true.


I think the argument was that the prophecies in the bible were noted AFTER they took place....so of course they would have come true.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyJumper

DancingArabian said:


> I think the argument was that the prophecies in the bible were noted AFTER they took place....so of course they would have come true.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, all the prophesies in the Bible were recorded *years* before the fact.
In fact some of the prophesy talk about today. There are prophesy in the Bible that talk about the Muslims and Jews fighting over the temple mound, the Jews preparing to rebuild the temple, etc. Things that are happening today.


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## MyJumper

DancingArabian said:


> Technically, jealousy is NOT a sin. Jealousy and envy are not the same things. Jealousy is the fear that someone will take away something you perceive as you're (like a jealous girlfriend going nuts over a female talking to her boyfriend). Envy is being unhappy with what you have and wanting what someone else has (like seeing a fancy saddle and feeling sad your saddle isn't as nice and wishing the nice saddle was yours instead).
> 
> I used "you" as a general you and not a specific you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hmm, I've never heard jealousy defined that way. I've always heard jealousy and envy used to define the same thing...


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## DancingArabian

MyJumper said:


> Hmm, I've never heard jealousy defined that way. I've always heard jealousy and envy used to define the same thing...


Google it and read up  I used to think so too until someone explained it to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zexious

My-Need I remind everyone of... The Rapture? xD 

Dancing--When you look up the definition of jealousy, a synonym that comes up is envy. So they are similar enough in my book xD


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## Tobysthebesthorseever

Well I did it and I found it severe.....


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## natisha

Eternal life? Oh boy, I have enough trouble with this one.


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## Foxhunter

What one must remember is that most of the bible was passed on verbally. There was no such thing as pen and paper hence poor Moses having to cart stones with the Ten Commandments written on them'

All should know what happens with a Chinese Whisper! things get distorted and changed.
The Bible contradicts itself many times, the fact that Adam and Eve had sons and they took themselves wives. Where did those wives come from?

The fascinating thing for me is that so many things in the Bible have been proven to be true. The fact that God created Heaven and Earth in seven days and the order he created them in have all scientifically been proven to be true. 

What is a day in eternity? It could be millions of years and, many tribes (for want of a better word) had no words for higher numbers. 

There is much that cannot be answered despite modern man trying to prove how something was done. 
How did they cart the stones to build Stonehenge? It has been tried and failed miserably. The distance was from Wales to Wiltshire, no roads and no wheels. They tried on pole rollers and got nowhere. 
How did the Mayans build such beautiful temples and dwellings? Such precision and such weights to move. 
How did they know about ley lines and star alignment? 

Non of it can be answered. Nor can many things in the Bible.


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## ErinaStars

Red Gate Farm said:


> From the Living Waters webpage (the people wo put out this test)
> *Vision*
> 
> Inspiring and equipping Christians in fulfilling the Great Commission.
> *Mission*
> 
> In our passion to glorify God, magnify His grace, and exalt His Son, Jesus Christ, it is our mission to serve the local church by assisting in globally educating God's people in the principles of biblical evangelism; Exhorting them to fulfill the Great Commission; and equipping them with every necessary resource along the way. We do this primarily through the teaching and preaching of God's Word, strategic conferences, academic and practical training opportunities, networking platforms, and the production and dissemination of various printed and audio/visual media.
> 
> ErinaStars, you fulfilled your mandate. You didn't really expect everyone to agree with you, did you?


Sorry....but I don't understand what your saying, or what point you are trying to make.
Maybe you could be just a tad more specific? (Sorry *smile*)


~Ivy~


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## Red Gate Farm

My point was, that you are "teaching and preaching of God's Word" through this media. You are doing what your religion expects of you.

But don't be surprised if people don't agree with you. Or how they disagree with you.


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## jaydee

Even individual churches under the Christian 'umbrella have differing beliefs on some things that are quite fundamental so why would everyone have the same opinions?


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## Saddlebag

Prophesies have a 50% chance of happening, no matter who makes them. Which bible do you follow, the King James version or the Revised Standard? People began to worship deities as a means of explaining what they didn't understand.


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## MyJumper

Foxhunter said:


> What one must remember is that most of the bible was passed on verbally. There was no such thing as pen and paper hence poor Moses having to cart stones with the Ten Commandments written on them'


Actually, no. The Bible was not passed on verbally. It was written down on Papyrus (pressed reeds), parchment (Dried animal skins) or stone tablets. 
There are 24,970 surviving manuscripts of the New Testament. Homer's Iliad is second with 643. The New Testament was written around 50-100 A.D. Eyewitness would still be alive, you can't have misinformation spreading when hundreds of people who witnessed the accounts are still alive. 

The Dead Sea Scrolls (Old Testament Manuscripts) Were compared to today's Bible and there was no major differences between the two.


As for the Bible's contradictions, could you please be more specific, I have not encountered any contradictions in the Bible.
The example you gave (Where did Adam and Eve's sons get their wives?) can be explained. Adam and Eve's sons married their sisters. This did not cause any genetic issues and was acceptable. The reason marring a close relative isn't acceptable today is because we all have problems with a DNA and the closer related someone is to you the higher chance you will have the same DNA mistakes and the higher chance those mistakes will be passed to your children. At the beginning they did not have all these problems with their DNA, so marring a sister had no harmful effects on the offspring. 
This practice was later banned by God once the population had multiplied to the point where it was no longer and necessary.


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## tempest

This is what Foxhunter might be referring to.

A List Of Biblical Contradictions
Bible Inconsistencies: Bible Contradictions?
The Thinking Atheist - | Bible Contradictions
Losing Faith In Faith
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CC0QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cs.umd.edu%2F~mvz%2Fbible%2Fbible-inconsistencies.pdf&ei=-qXUUoHvNIOR2wWv3YDYCQ&usg=AFQjCNG6Q8MzrJ2H1yha-YFKbmCNssOoEQ&bvm=bv.59378465,d.b2I
http://atheism.about.com/od/bibleco...e-Contradictions-Inconsistencies-Overview.htm
http://atheism.about.com/od/biblecontradictionserror/

I did take the test even though I knew what it would say (the link gave it away). Everyone else has basically the same opinion of it as I do.


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## MyJumper

The prophesies in the Bible are very specific. For example, here are prophesies about Jesus:

1.) He would be born of a virgin
2.) He would be born in Bethlehem 
3.) He would be crucified (This method of execution was not even invented at the time of the writing)
4.) He would be betrayed by a friend
5.) His side would be pieced 

There are many more prophecy such as these about Jesus. There are hundreds of _extremely_ specific prophesies that list city names, names of kings, dates, specific actions, honestly I just can't believe that these prophesies are all coincidences. I don't have that kind of faith.


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## MyJumper

Ok, I don't think I have the time to explain all those contradictions, but here are a few. 


*GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time. 
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.*
Gen. 2:7, 21-22 goes into detail as to how God created things. Gen. 1 was just an outline of the events. 

*GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel's offering and has no regard for Cain's. 
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.*
Cain disobeyed God's orders. God gave clear instructions on what to give and how to give it. Cain disobeyed and suffered the consequences of his actions.

*GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is. 
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.*
This was to get Cain to admit his sin. God knew where Abel was, God was giving Cain the opportunity to repent.

*GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world. 
1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.*
God confused the languages to get the people to spread out and inhabit the whole world. Paul is saying that God does not cause strife or anger.

*GE 17:8 God promises Abraham the land of Canaan as an "everlasting possession." 
GE 25:8, AC 7:2-5, HE 11:13 Abraham died with the promise unfulfilled.*
Canaan was promised to Abraham's descendants for an "everlasting 
possession".

*EX 4:11 God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc. 
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love.*
God did not sin. It was our own sin that brought on this punishment. God loves us, but he must punish us for our wrongs. These are the consequences of our actions.

Do you have any specific contradiction in mind? I don't have the time to go through and answer every one.


----------



## Chokolate

I went through many times to try and make it tell me I was going to heaven. Nothing you say will have it tell you that you will...so why bother trying? Surely those who MADE the test hope they will get there, but they are telling everyone else that they won't? What must we do to get to heaven?

As for contradictions in the Bible...excuse me jumping in here to ask about my own, but doesn't the theory of evolution contradict it? Do you believe one or both?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tracer

MyJumper said:


> *EX 4:11 God decides who will be dumb, deaf, blind, etc.
> 2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is a god of love.*
> God did not sin. It was our own sin that brought on this punishment. God loves us, but he must punish us for our wrongs. These are the consequences of our actions.


I'm sorry, but what about the people who are born dumb/deaf/blind etc? If reincarnation does not exist, then what sins brought on their punishment?

I personally do not see how anyone can definitively say that the bible wasn't started as a drunken campfire story. I'm sure we've all heard tall tales before. And, as previously mentioned, for a story to have been passed down through so many generations, there would undoubtedly be inaccuracies.

And yes, what about evolution? It and religion seemingly cannot coexist, and yet there is solid evidence of the former and not the latter.

My personal opinion is that God does not exist, that his story was created in order to induce fear in the masses. Just like the controversies surrounding the terrorist attacks in the US, how they are claimed to have been set ups by the government. The easiest way to rule has always been through fear of punishment.

But, if God does exist? He sure doesn't seem to give much of a **** about anyone. I don't see any Christians living untarnished by crime and natural disasters. If those who have never sinned truly are embraced by God, then you'd think he'd at least look out for them.

I also find it rather amusing that the Virgin Mary was, essentially, raped.


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## Foxhunter

Sure the New Testament was written on parchment and stone but the Old wasn't. 

There are contradictions and that is bound to happen with such a large variety of stories.

Science cannot prove everything that is for sure but it is more or less proven that we are all descendants of a black African woman. 

Science has proved that many things such as the Egyptian plague, famine and other things happened. 

It is many years since I read most of the Bible and I also read the Quran which runs a remarkable parallel to the bible having been 'invented' by Abraham. 

No one can answer the questions of why, if God is good, small children suffer to other terrible things. 

Catholics were taught to believe that if they did not confess their sins then they would go to purgatory. Does this mean that others following the Christian faith, or those that do not, all go to Jell or Purgatory even though they were good people? 

Supposing that someone went back in time, someone with basic medical knowledge, they could miraculously cure many illnesses.

Most religions were followed in a variety of ways because man decided that it was the way not because God told them. Many religions were followed because of fear. 

No matter what one believes, as long as the rules are followed then the world would be a better place.


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> The prophesies in the Bible are very specific. For example, here are prophesies about Jesus:
> 
> 1.) He would be born of a virgin
> 2.) He would be born in Bethlehem
> 3.) He would be crucified (This method of execution was not even invented at the time of the writing)
> 4.) He would be betrayed by a friend
> 5.) His side would be pieced
> 
> There are many more prophecy such as these about Jesus. There are hundreds of _extremely_ specific prophesies that list city names, names of kings, dates, specific actions, honestly I just can't believe that these prophesies are all coincidences. I don't have that kind of faith.


The guys who wrote the NT were definitely NOT ALIVE at the time that Jesus would have been, should he prove to be a real historical figure (the jury is out, can give evidence either way should you want it). The expected life-span back then was about 45 years, yet the first NT texts started popping up 70 years later. Not eyewitness, sorry.

Secondly, it is really easy to make a prophecy come true when it is worded the right way. Especially when the person writing the tale of the FULFILLMENT of the prophecy has the original text to refer to, and is not writing an eyewitness account.


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## Chiilaa

OP - I am good without god. I don't need fear of eternal torture to make me want to be a decent human being - I am good for the sheer sake of being good, as hard as that is to imagine. Also, if you are following the bible to the last letter, I bet my last dollar that I am going to be picked as the more "good" of the two of us, every single time.


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## MyJumper

Yes, evolution does contradict the Bible. Evolution has not been proved. First of all,evolution is the idea that organisms *gain* genetic information over time. This has never been observed. In fact, it has been observed that organisms *lose* genetic information over time.
Secondly, life has never come non-life. Life always comes from other living organisms.
In 1953, Stanley Miller performed an experiment which he believed proved intelligent life is not needed to create the universe. However, this experiment is flawed. It proves the opposite, intelligent life(in this case a scientist) is needed to create life. Also,in the beginning there would be no laboratory, nor would there be any such chemicals. In the beginning there was nothing.


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> The guys who wrote the NT were definitely NOT ALIVE at the time that Jesus would have been, should he prove to be a real historical figure (the jury is out, can give evidence either way should you want it). The expected life-span back then was about 45 years, yet the first NT texts started popping up 70 years later. Not eyewitness, sorry.
> 
> Secondly, it is really easy to make a prophecy come true when it is worded the right way. Especially when the person writing the tale of the FULFILLMENT of the prophecy has the original text to refer to, and is not writing an eyewitness account.



Actually, Jesus brother wrote some of the NT books. Jesus' disciples also wrote some books. Yes, eyewitness were around and some even wrote the books.

Jesus is a real person. Historian Josephus (who was not a follower of Jesus) wrote about him.


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## MyJumper

I think some of you are missing the point. The Bible does not teach that you must be perfect to get to heaven. Christians sin, being a Christian does not mean that you will never sin. We all sin. I've sinned, you've sinned and so has every Christian I'v ever met. Jesus came and died for our sins. He took the punishment. We just have to accept His gift. Nothing we do can ever save us. We cannot get to heaven simply because we some good thing.


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## MyJumper

Why do good people suffer? Good people suffer because of sin. God never said if we follow Him, we'll be healthy, wealthy and happy. He said he'd be with us, He said He'd help us. 
Everyone sins and disease, natural disasters and mutations are the consequences of sin. Just because wee follow God, doesn't mean we'll put a magic bubble around us and take away the consequences of sin.


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## Saddlebag

The original meaning of Sin is "to miss the mark". In other words, we mess up. The best learning tool is making mistakes. When a Christian offers to pray for someone, what is really being said is "I won't do a thing to help you but I'll ask God to help you".


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> Yes, evolution does contradict the Bible. Evolution has not been proved. First of all,evolution is the idea that organisms *gain* genetic information over time. This has never been observed. In fact, it has been observed that organisms *lose* genetic information over time.
> Secondly, life has never come non-life. Life always comes from other living organisms.
> In 1953, Stanley Miller performed an experiment which he believed proved intelligent life is not needed to create the universe. However, this experiment is flawed. It proves the opposite, intelligent life(in this case a scientist) is needed to create life. Also,in the beginning there would be no laboratory, nor would there be any such chemicals. In the beginning there was nothing.


Evolution is proven. It is beyond any doubt that evolution has occurred. And when you talk about the moment of life beginning, this is called "abiogenesis" and is completely separate to evolution.


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> Why do good people suffer? Good people suffer because of sin. God never said if we follow Him, we'll be healthy, wealthy and happy. He said he'd be with us, He said He'd help us.
> Everyone sins and disease, natural disasters and mutations are the consequences of sin. Just because wee follow God, doesn't mean we'll put a magic bubble around us and take away the consequences of sin.


What about the children starving in Africa? What kind of loving god does that?


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> Actually, Jesus brother wrote some of the NT books. Jesus' disciples also wrote some books. Yes, eyewitness were around and some even wrote the books.
> 
> Jesus is a real person. Historian Josephus (who was not a follower of Jesus) wrote about him.


The names of the guys on the books of the NT are not who wrote them...

Like I said, there is evidence that Jesus could have been a real historical figure, someone preaching the christian religion in that general area was listed once in one book. That doesn't prove it was Jesus, it just proves that christianity was in the area. I am not denying the possibility that this guy was named Jesus, just that I have not seen enough evidence to prove or disprove his existence.


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## jaydee

Most of the Old Testament was written well after the event and even the Jews now believe a lot of it to be 'stories' and not actual events
Even if we accept that the "days' in the creation story were a thousand years and not an actual day there is now enough scientific evidence to prove that the Earth is much older than that and that aquatic & animal life is also much older than that
There are intellectuals who have dedicated a lot of their lives studying the Bible and far more depth then we can and the consensus of opinion is that the Gospel of Matthew depends on the Gospel of Mark and that Matthew was not the apostle. The Gospel of Mark is generally believed to have been written in a range of 65 - 80AD which would put Matthew later than that - a range of 80 - 100AD
Research on the Gospel of Luke indicates that was written in a range of 80 - 130AD and the Gospel of John at 90 - 120AD
One of the problems with in depth study of the Bible is that the more you do the more discrepancies you find
That isn't to say that there isn't a God and that Jesus Christ didn't exist - I think there is some record of his crucifixion in ancient Roman records and the Jews who lived through that period of history regard him as a prophet as do the Muslims but these things were written by humans who have proved themselves time and time again to not always be the most reliable of any species and sometimes as a means to control a population
If you followed the rules of Paul then no women would be 'preaching the word of God because it was not their role to do so


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## ErinaStars

Chiilaa said:


> OP - I am good without god. I don't need fear of eternal torture to make me want to be a decent human being - I am good for the sheer sake of being good, as hard as that is to imagine. Also, if you are following the bible to the last letter, I bet my last dollar that I am going to be picked as the more "good" of the two of us, every single time.





> I am good without god.


First what is your definition of “good” Chiilaa? 
If you mean you can have good manners, do volunteer work, give to worthy causes, then of course you can be “good without God.” 
If you mean you can be sophisticated with good taste, with fine connections in the world and a place at high table, of course you can be “good without God.” 
If you mean you can love family and friends and country and be loyal and kind and gentle and feel the sweep of fine feelings within their heart, of course you can be “good without God.

A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.

Without God, morals are meaningless. When man makes the rules, either individually or by majority rule, there will always be mistakes, because mankind is not perfect. 
“No one is good except God alone” Mark 10:18 
God alone is perfect, holy, and "good" He exists outside of the realm of mankind as the source of objective moral standards.





> Also, if you are following the bible to the last letter, I bet my last dollar that I am going to be picked as the more "good" of the two of us, every single time.


What do you mean by that:


> ”I bet my last dollar that I am going to be picked as the more "good" of the two of us, every single time.”


? I don’t understand. Do you mean by “your” standards?
No one (as I mentioned above) is perfect. 
I try every single day to live for my Lord and Savior, to glorify and honor Him with my life, to obey His commands. 
I accepted Jesus Christin my heart as my Lord and Savior, turned away from my sins that I had been committing and now live for my King of kings. Of course I still make mistakes because I am not perfect, don’t get me wrong!

~Ivy~


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## jaydee

To say that without a God morals are meaningless could indicate that some bright person way back decided that giving the population something 'all seeing' to fear would be a great way to keep them under control
Every recorded culture has had some form of a God or Gods but you would expect if mankind had had knowledge of one God and one set of rules from Day One that was vital to them even after they spread around the world they would have retained those beliefs and ways of worship and yet that is far from the case because the oldest religion still practiced today (by one third of the worlds population) is Hinduism which is quite different. 
In the Western World the oldest recorded religious practices come from Egypt written around 4000 BC
There is a general theme in religious writings from the western world of a creation by a supernatural being that 'produces other similar supernatural beings including a son that in some way dies for his people and comes back to life and an afterlife that's not unlike life on earth that date back to Phoenicia in 2700BC spreading though Sumer, Palestine, Greece (800BCE) and finally Rome but they don't exactly mirror the Adam and Eve story


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## Zexious

Erina--Morals are meaningless without god? Where, then, do we get laws, and people that abide by them? 

My--You can see evolution today, all the time, everywhere. Just say'n.


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## Saddlebag

Being good or being bad is only a matter of someone else's opinion. Look at then 10 commandments. No one shall work on the 7th day. How many Christians are working at Walmart and McD's on weekends? In one of the commandments God confesses that he is a jealous god. God, jealous? Isn't that one of the sins? We're not supposed to sin but it's ok for this ethereal figure to sin. What a contradiction. Sounds like "do as I say and not as I do"


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## Chiilaa

ErinaStars said:


> First what is your definition of “good” Chiilaa?
> If you mean you can have good manners, do volunteer work, give to worthy causes, then of course you can be “good without God.”
> If you mean you can be sophisticated with good taste, with fine connections in the world and a place at high table, of course you can be “good without God.”
> If you mean you can love family and friends and country and be loyal and kind and gentle and feel the sweep of fine feelings within their heart, of course you can be “good without God.
> 
> A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line.
> 
> Without God, morals are meaningless. When man makes the rules, either individually or by majority rule, there will always be mistakes, because mankind is not perfect.
> “No one is good except God alone” Mark 10:18
> God alone is perfect, holy, and "good" He exists outside of the realm of mankind as the source of objective moral standards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean by that: ? I don’t understand. Do you mean by “your” standards?
> No one (as I mentioned above) is perfect.
> I try every single day to live for my Lord and Savior, to glorify and honor Him with my life, to obey His commands.
> I accepted Jesus Christin my heart as my Lord and Savior, turned away from my sins that I had been committing and now live for my King of kings. Of course I still make mistakes because I am not perfect, don’t get me wrong!
> 
> ~Ivy~


Morals are actually a side-effect of evolution and societal constructs. I follow a simple moral structure that ensures the success of the human species - don't be a *********. That is as simplified as it gets. I don't do anything that hurts you, and you try not to threaten me with eternal ****ation as much as you can. 

Why would I be the "more good" person? If you are following the bible (even the NT applies here, don't give me a cop out about the OT being the mean one), then you are not going to be a nice person, what with the general nastiness.


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## Chiilaa

Saddlebag said:


> Being good or being bad is only a matter of someone else's opinion. Look at then 10 commandments. No one shall work on the 7th day. How many Christians are working at Walmart and McD's on weekends? In one of the commandments God confesses that he is a jealous god. God, jealous? Isn't that one of the sins? We're not supposed to sin but it's ok for this ethereal figure to sin. What a contradiction. Sounds like "do as I say and not as I do"


Isn't one of the "most important" commandments not to kill? Because the god in the bible sure does a great job of modelling that one for us...


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## DancingArabian

@ErinaStars
The way your posts read makes me feel like you have a lot of pride in the choices you've made regarding your religion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ErinaStars

Chiilaa said:


> Morals are actually a side-effect of evolution and societal constructs. I follow a simple moral structure that ensures the success of the human species - don't be a *********. That is as simplified as it gets. I don't do anything that hurts you, and you try not to threaten me with eternal ****ation as much as you can.
> 
> Why would I be the "more good" person? If you are following the bible (even the NT applies here, don't give me a cop out about the OT being the mean one), then you are not going to be a nice person, what with the general nastiness.[





> Morals are actually a side-effect of evolution and societal constructs.


Do you believe in evolution Chiilaa? Just curious.... 



> I follow a simple moral structure that ensures the success of the human species - don't be a *********.



Excuse me, you are referring to me as:


> *don't be a **********


, and I'm not sure of its meaning, maybe you could enlighten me Chiilaa????


> That is as simplified as it gets. I don't do anything that hurts you, and you try not to threaten me with eternal ****ation as much as you can.


Chiilaa…I’m not threatening you…I wouldn’t threaten you….all I’m doing is sharing the gospel with you. 



> Why would I be the "more good" person? If you are following the bible (even the NT applies here, don't give me a cop out about the OT being the mean one), then you are not going to be a nice person, what with the general nastiness.


I just want to clarify something before I move on to what you said.
It has nothing to do with being "the more good person" concerning you and me. I'm not getting into a competition to see who is the "good person" here, I'm nothing without Christ.



> then you are not going to be a nice person, what with the general nastiness.


Chiilaa, what point are you trying to make by saying this? Because I didn't get it........What general nastiness are you talking about?

~Ivy~


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## ErinaStars

DancingArabian said:


> @ErinaStars
> The way your posts read makes me feel like you have a lot of pride in the choices you've made regarding your religion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @DancingArabian 
You know, on the list of the 7 things God hates *Pride *is the first one?? 
I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I was not prideful. 
You may see things differently because you do not agree with what I have said. 
I'm joyful that I have a God who loves me, who died on the cross for me!! 
I love spending time with Him when I'm go to Him in prayer! 

~Ivy~


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## ErinaStars

Red Gate Farm said:


> My point was, that you are "teaching*I'm not teaching* and preaching*I'm not preaching* of God's Word" through this media. You are doing what your religion expects of you.*I'm simply sharing the gospel.*
> 
> But don't be surprised if people don't agree with you. Or how they disagree with you.*I'm not, in fact I expected that.*


In BOLD above.


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## Saddlebag

"He would be crucified (This method of execution was not even invented at the time of the writing)". 
Actually it had been. The word cross is a derivation of ancient Greek referring to a tree. Criminals were tied to a post but not for very long, but long enough for people to stone them. They were then freed. They were not tied to what is now depicted as a cross. The word Christ means leader in ancient Hebrew. Many rabbis were also called Christ. Who's to know that Mary was a virgin? Because some male scholar said so? BTW, the story about going to Bethlehem for census is dead wrong. There was no census at the time.


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## MyJumper

@Chiilaa,

Could you please inform me as to how you know evolution is true. Do you have any proof? Also, where might I observe evolution happening? (Since you say I can see evolution happening today.)


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> What about the children starving in Africa? What kind of loving god does that?


It isn't God's fault that people suffer. God didn't force us to sin. We sinned, we brought this suffering on ourselves. God gave us a free will and we chose to reject Him. God, loved us enough to sacrifice His Son, so we don't have to suffer forever and go to hell.


----------



## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> @Chiilaa,
> 
> Could you please inform me as to how you know evolution is true. Do you have any proof? Also, where might I observe evolution happening? (Since you say I can see evolution happening today.)


What breed of horse do you have? I bet it isn't a replica of the original horses that were domesticated on the steppes a while back: 










And wait, because I have argued this point with evolution deniers before, let me clarify something - if you tell me that breeds are "micro" evolution, and species transitions are "macro" evolution, then I WILL LAUGH AT YOU, because there is no such thing as this differentiation. Change over time due to selection for traits, regardless of the method of selection being man or nature, is evolution.


----------



## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> It isn't God's fault that people suffer. God didn't force us to sin. We sinned, we brought this suffering on ourselves. God gave us a free will and we chose to reject Him. God, loved us enough to sacrifice His Son, so we don't have to suffer forever and go to hell.


Let's be logical about this. 

Situation: God creates man, knowing man is going to stuff everything up, and this will lead to innocent children that have not made any choices or committed any sin starving slowly to death or dying slowly from various illnesses (which, ironically, God would have had to have created...). Add into this that God is omniscient and omnipotent, i.e. he is all knowing and all powerful, and all loving as well.

If he was omniscient, he should have known that we were going to sin, and these children were going to suffer, in which case he is most definitely not loving.

If he didn't know we were going to sin, and that sinning would lead to the deaths of millions of innocent children, he is not omniscient.

If he is all powerful, and loving, then why doesn't he act? You cannot tell me that these children starving to death every day are a just and fair side effect of some fat guy in some town looking at his neighbour's wife with googly eyes.


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## SouthernTrails

.

This can be a tough read as part of it mentions the Aurora Shooting, but kudoos to anyone who actually reads the whole story :wink:

Why Does God Allow Tragedy and Suffering? | Bible Gateway Blog

.


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## Chiilaa

SouthernTrails said:


> .
> 
> This can be a tough read as part of it mentions the Aurora Shooting, but kudoos to anyone who actually reads the whole story :wink:
> 
> Why Does God Allow Tragedy and Suffering? | Bible Gateway Blog
> 
> .


For me, this whole thing just reinforces my point. A good, loving God wouldn't do this! If someone came up to me, and said "you will love me, or I am going to cause all kinds of misery to those you love, yourself, and total strangers", then I would probably call the cops. How is this any different?


----------



## SouthernTrails

Chiilaa said:


> For me, this whole thing just reinforces my point. A good, loving God wouldn't do this! If someone came up to me, and said "you will love me, or I am going to cause all kinds of misery to those you love, yourself, and total strangers", then I would probably call the cops. How is this any different?


If you have children, what do you do? Do you raise them the best you can and then let them go out into the world on their own? 

Do things happen to them? Can or do you keep them at home and protect them their whole lives?

In the beginning there was no sin, no sickness, no destructive weather, but God did not want puppets, he gave mankind free will, thus sin was born and the repercussions of it.

Did you read that whole story? Did you have an open mind when you did or did you have already set in stone pre-concieved thoughts about the whole thing?

Not being smart, just curious as it was only posted 10 min. ago and it took me a lot longer then 10 min to read the story :lol:

.


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## Chiilaa

I read approximately 1600 words per minute lol. So I read things pretty quickly.

I probably do have some pre-conceived thoughts about the article, but you would have had your own about my analogy too.

And yes, I have children. I raise them to be decent, caring humans that are good for the sake of being good. I also expect them to take responsibility for their actions. However, they shouldn't have to take responsibility for the actions of others, that crosses the line. If their actions directly (or indirectly, but with clear causal links) cause a problem, I would expect them to fix it as best they could. But self denigrating to the point where you actually believe that your impure thoughts can be part of the reason 60 homes were burnt to the ground in my home town this week is just not right.


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## LauraN

ooooh the terror! I'm a bad person ! I have done everything wrong in the test! (except for the adultery part) what am i gonna do??? This test makes me soooo mad! Seriously! What about all the people on earth who are not christians and took that test and are now put off christianity for ever?!! Huh? That test is a load of BS! I mean, obviously we are bad people. But that's the reason a certain someone DIED for us! Ok, sorry for the rant... 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MyJumper

@LauraN,

The end of the test talked about how Jesus died for your sins. That was the whole point of the test, no one is good enough and Jesus is the only way.
@Chiilaa, I think you're missing my point. Those starving children in Africa *SINNED*. Everyone has sinned. No one is being punished for something they didn't do.


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> I raise them to be decent, caring humans *that are good for the sake of being good.*


I'm really confused about the bolded part "good for the sake of being good".
You keep saying how you're good, but if you're just following your own standards, then you can't really be good. I may say I'm perfect, but my standards may say that stealing is okay and it's fine to lie just so long as no one gets hurt. Without God morals are really just what ever you 'feel' is right and that doesn't work.


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> What breed of horse do you have? I bet it isn't a replica of the original horses that were domesticated on the steppes a while back:
> *No, that horse is not the same as the original horse. However, that horse has not gained any genetic information. That horse has lost genetic information.*
> 
> And wait, because I have argued this point with evolution deniers before, let me clarify something - if you tell me that breeds are "micro" evolution, and species transitions are "macro" evolution, then I WILL LAUGH AT YOU, because there is no such thing as this differentiation. Change over time due to selection for traits, regardless of the method of selection being man or nature, is evolution.
> *Actually there is a difference. A big difference. I do believe in evolution. I do believe animals change over time. I don't believe animals change from one species to another. If you could show me a whale turning into a giraffe, then you'd have proof evolution is real. However the fossil record shows no such thing. The fossil record shows whales having whales and giraffes having giraffes. Every missing link is still missing.*


Also, how does life come from non-life? Can you give me proof that life just appears from nothing?

(My answer in bold)


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## Chiilaa

This is me laughing at you, just like I said I would.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Ok, understand that I had to laugh, because I said I would. In all seriousness, questions are good.

Let's go back to basics, and get some definitions done with. 

ev·o·lu·tion ( v -l sh n, v -). n. 1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. (source: evolution - definition of evolution by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.) Something to note about this: it does not mention anything about the actual beginning point at which life occurred for the first time. That is because this is not the same as evolution.

a·bi·o·gen·e·sis ( b - -j n -s s). n. The supposed development of living organisms from nonliving matter. Also called autogenesis, spontaneous generation. (source: Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Again, we need to note here that this is not the same as evolution.


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## LauraN

Ok, point taken. I am not very good with words, and i actually meant something else, but anyways... What did the starving children do? Some of them may have never done a bad thing in their lifes and they still have to starve. Hitler was most definately not a good person and he lived better than most people could even dream of. Man has sinned. Sin is in the world, but people don't always get punished for what they did while they are still on earth. So saying that it's the starving childrens fault that they are staving is wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa

Next, let's examine evolution a little closer. There is no "loss" of information, only information being added. Each mutation is a whole new piece of information, and the other information isn't lost. Let's look at horses. All horses were originally probably bay duns. That is a limited amount of information - one piece to make the horse black, one piece to make the black horse bay, one more piece to make the horse dun. Then along comes this strange mutation, and all of a sudden, we have a grulla horse. The same amount of information is there - one to be black, one to be dun, but now we have a different thing happening where the horse doesn't have bay. It still has a gene that sits at the same place, and sends a message to the pigment producing cells, but in this case it is telling the cells to NOT be bay. This works for every other gene within the horse - it is a matter of different, not less.


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## Chiilaa

LauraN said:


> Ok, point taken. I am not very good with words, and i actually meant something else, but anyways... What did the starving children do? Some of them may have never done a bad thing in their lifes and they still have to starve. Hitler was most definately not a good person and he lived better than most people could even dream of. Man has sinned. Sin is in the world, but people don't always get punished for what they did while they are still on earth. So saying that it's the starving childrens fault that they are staving is wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, if I read you right, God is the reason that those children are starving.


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## SouthernTrails

Chiilaa said:


> Let's go back to basics, and get some definitions done with.
> 
> ev·o·lu·tion ( v -l sh n, v -). n. 1. A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. (source: evolution - definition of evolution by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.) Something to note about this: it does not mention anything about the actual beginning point at which life occurred for the first time. That is because this is not the same as evolution.


We were Created to Adapt to changes in our environment, so I agree in part with evolution, but I would call it Adapting.




Chiilaa said:


> a·bi·o·gen·e·sis ( b - -j n -s s). n. The supposed development of living organisms from nonliving matter. Also called autogenesis, spontaneous generation. (source: Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Again, we need to note here that this is not the same as evolution.


This part, where humans supposedly came from nothing, turned into a a single cell and eventually crawled out of the mire then became an ape then turned into a human is beyond belief.

But to some thinking God created everything is beyond belief also :wink:

Personally I believed a higher being (God) created everything, long before I became a Christian.

.


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## Tracer

Hold up a sec -

"God, loved us enough to sacrifice His Son, so we don't have to suffer forever and go to hell." So by rights, everyone is going to heaven, so lets all be as bad as we want!

"Christians sin, being a Christian does not mean that you will never sin. We all sin. I've sinned, you've sinned and so has every Christian I've ever met." According to the test then, you're a bad person, and you're going to hell.

See, contradictions! The test said that if you've sinned even once, you're going to hell. But if Jesus died for our sins, then technically our sins are forgiven, and therefore we go to heaven. (not that I believe in either).

The only thing I have ever appreciated about Catholicism is Pope Francis. That man is going wonders for the religion, and if every other religion and religious follower could take a page out of his book, out of accepting those even his own religion shuns, then the world would be a much better place.


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## SouthernTrails

Chiilaa said:


> No, if I read you right, God is the reason that those children are starving.


No, sins of their father or their fathers father or fathers father, etc.

Father being used in a generic term meaning the people before them

.


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## Chiilaa

SouthernTrails said:


> We were Created to Adapt to changes in our environment, so I agree in part with evolution, but I would call it Adapting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This part, where humans supposedly came from nothing, turned into a a single cell and eventually crawled out of the mire then became an ape then turned into a human is beyond belief.
> 
> But to some thinking God created everything is beyond belief also :wink:
> 
> Personally I believed a higher being (God) created everything, long before I became a Christian.
> 
> .


I don't know enough about the beginning of life to make a conclusion. If I read up on it, and educated myself about it, perhaps I would be able to offer more than a disbelief. At this stage, I believe that there is no proof that any being started life, the universe or anything else, so until there is proof, I wait for science to solve more of life's great riddles.


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## Chiilaa

SouthernTrails said:


> No, sins of their father or their fathers father or fathers father, etc.
> 
> Father being used in a generic term meaning the people before them
> 
> .


But God created free will, knowing those children would starve despite the fact they are innocent. If he knew it would happen, why did he not stop it from happening?


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## SouthernTrails

Chiilaa said:


> At this stage, I believe that there is no proof that any being started life, the universe or anything else, so until there is proof, I wait for science to solve more of life's great riddles.


There is no proof of of a lot of Scientific Theories as no one was there in the beginning, Scientists tend to devise ways to prove their theories.

Many things in the Bible have been proven by Scientists

Eternal Productions - 101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge

.


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## Chiilaa

SouthernTrails said:


> There is no proof of of a lot of Scientific Theories as no one was there in the beginning, Scientists tend to devise ways to prove their theories.
> 
> Many things in the Bible have been proven by Scientists
> 
> Eternal Productions - 101 Scientific Facts and Foreknowledge
> 
> .


Not denying that some stuff has relevance to science today (a lot of stuff back then was a lot more sophisticated than we give them credit for, especially in the middle east). However, there is plenty in the bible that is clearly not true as well.


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## SouthernTrails

Chiilaa said:


> But God created free will, knowing those children would starve despite the fact they are innocent. If he knew it would happen, why did he not stop it from happening?


Your child grows up and wants to got work in the deadliest part of the world where they most likely die quicker than if they stayed at home.

Do you allow that or allow them their Free Will?

God allows Free Will and because of choices made by people previously other people suffer from the original sin. 
No one is truly innocent of sin and it's repercussions, that is why Jesus died for everyone. 
The innocent children as you say will be in Heaven, While of course I wish everyone had the chance to live to be 100 or more, but as with a lot of things I have no answers to everything :wink:

.


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## Saddlebag

If heaven is such a great place, why aren't people committing suicide to get there sooner? "The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad." Frederich Neitzsche


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## tempest

I find it interesting that you (general) believe that you have free will. If God already knows what you are going to do before you even do it and he has your entire life planned out for you already, your decisions in life have been chosen for you. Even if you think you are deciding for yourself you aren't because you are following God's predetermined plan for you.


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## SouthernTrails

Saddlebag said:


> If heaven is such a great place, why aren't people committing suicide to get there sooner?


Suicide is a Sin, thus if you commit suicide you have no chance for redemption to get into Heaven, kinda of a ridiculous theory on how to get to Heaven :lol::lol:

.


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## DancingArabian

SouthernTrails said:


> No, sins of their father or their fathers father or fathers father, etc.
> 
> Father being used in a generic term meaning the people before them
> 
> .


So if you mess up it's okay to take it out on your If your great-great-great-great whatever did something awful then it's okay that YOU are punished for it, even though you haven't even existed yet.

This is fair and just how?
(Use of general you)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ErinaStars

@Chiilaa (Down below):

*
Originally Posted by Chiilaa* 



> Morals are actually a side-effect of evolution and societal constructs.


So we all evolved from apes? How did the world start? I'm really curious now!



> Quote:
> I follow a simple moral structure that ensures the success of the human species - don't be a *********.


Excuse me, you are referring to me as:


> *Quote:
> don't be a **********


and I'm not sure of its meaning, maybe you could enlighten me Chiilaa????



> That is as simplified as it gets. I don't do anything that hurts you, and you try not to threaten me with eternal ****ation as much as you can.


Chiilaa…I’m not threatening you…I wouldn’t threaten you….all I’m doing is sharing the gospel with you. 




> Why would I be the "more good" person? If you are following the bible (even the NT applies here, don't give me a cop out about the OT being the mean one), then you are not going to be a nice person, what with the general nastiness.


I just want to clarify something before I move on to what you said.
It has nothing to do with being "the more good person" concerning you and me. I'm not getting into a competition to see who is the "good person" here, I'm nothing without Christ.



> then you are not going to be a nice person, what with the general nastiness.


Chiilaa, what point are you trying to make by saying this? Because I didn't get it........What general nastiness are you talking about?

~Ivy~


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## DancingArabian

SouthernTrails said:


> Suicide is a Sin, thus if you commit suicide you have no chance for redemption to get into Heaven, kinda of a ridiculous theory on how to get to Heaven :lol::lol:
> 
> .


A sin is a sin. They're all considered the same. So if you kill yourself or cuss or murder someone you're all the same. According to religion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee

Its always been my understanding that 'Satan' was once one of Gods good guys but when the Earth was created he wanted humans to be totally controlled but God wanted us to have free will so we could prove ourselves and earn a place in 'heaven' (wherever that might be) There was a War and Satan and his followers were cast out
My main problem with this concept is that if we are here under those conditions and God has no control over the bad things/bad people or anything we do then what is the point in praying to him asking for help or thanking him for the good things in our lives because by the understanding of free will and we're here on our own he can't help and the good stuff is also down to us or just pure luck
As for evolution - there are fossils that show gradual change in a species but fossil records are really scant and things changed over a long period of time - not in the space of a few decades, hardly surprising since the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old. In the same vein as asking why are things no longer evolving you could also ask that since we do know that certain species were on the earth well before others if each one was an individual creation why are we no longer seeing any new species suddenly appearing?
The biggest problem with trying to understand how we got here using the Bible is that we're relying on the words of early men who were trying to answer the question in the simplest & best way they could to keep the population happy but really didn't have a clue - even with all the scientific evidence and facilities at our disposal we aren't that much better informed


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## DancingArabian

@ErinaStars
The world started from the Big Bang theory or something similar.

And you can put all the smileys you want, but your posts are haughty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ErinaStars

DancingArabian said:


> @ErinaStars
> The world started from the Big Bang theory or something similar.
> And you can put all the smileys you want, but your posts are haughty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 @DancingArabian. 
The Big Bang theory....Is that saying that something created something out of nothing? 



> And you can put all the smileys you want, but your posts are haughty.


I'm sorry if you see it that way. 
I like smileys! Thats just my personal preference...*smile* 
A smile can really brighten up a persons day. People have told me so, and I've seen what a quick smile can do:
For example, when you walk into Wal-Mart(or some other store), and you see a gloomy face, depressed, blank, ect...ect and you smile a bright and an encouraging smile at them, you should see how their face lights up in just a moment! Like a little bit of sunshine!

Anyways DancingArabian.....I know the above is off topic but I just got carried away! *laugh*


~Ivy~


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## SouthernTrails

DancingArabian said:


> A sin is a sin. They're all considered the same. So if you kill yourself or cuss or murder someone you're all the same. According to religion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you commit suicide you have no chance to ask for forgiveness, if you commit other sins you still have a chance to ask for forgiveness for your sins and be born again in the Lord.

.


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## Amba1027

SouthernTrails said:


> If you commit suicide you have no chance to ask for forgiveness, if you commit other sins you still have a chance to ask for forgiveness for your sins and be born again in the Lord.
> 
> .


That's only assuming that you would die immediately. Many forms of suicide take a bit to actually kill you. So it is possible to ask forgiveness while you are dying.


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## SouthernTrails

Amba1027 said:


> That's only assuming that you would die immediately. Many forms of suicide take a bit to actually kill you. So it is possible to ask forgiveness while you are dying.


hmmmm...... Interesting thought..... no idea on that part :lol:

.


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## ErinaStars

Amba1027 said:


> That's only assuming that you would die immediately. Many forms of suicide take a bit to actually kill you. So it is possible to ask forgiveness while you are dying.


I never thought about that one either:?
Whats your opinion(if you have one on that)?


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## ladygodiva1228

Ok I never get into conversations when it comes to religion because honestly I could careless who/what/how/where/when others believe/worship/look up to/whatever. 

But the thing that has always bothered me is how there is so much proof that dinosaurs lived on this plant millions of years ago when human did not. It has been proven that horses evolved from a much smaller (dog size) equine that ran around some 50+ million year ago to what they are now. Horse Evolution - The Story of Prehistoric Horses

No where in any bible (that I am aware of) have I heard about dinosaurs being written about. If there is a god and he created life when did he create dinosaurs? What about cavemen? And if there is a god where did he come from? Did he himself just materialize? 

My opinion is this planet is a test plant that was "created" but not in the way many think.


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## aubie

About suicide. Cant quote exactly or remember verse but I remember something about that neither Angels, things present or things to come, nothing can remove you from the hand of God. To think that you can do it yourself puts you ahead of God.


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## Ninamebo

As someone who studied biology in college, I struggled at first with what my religion taught me and what I was seeing in my science classes as evidence to refute those teachings. 

I have since then learned to completely separate the two things (for my own sanity) and believe through faith my own, unique understanding of God and also of the theory of evolution taught in my classes that also makes so much sense to me. 

That is the way I handle it, and it works for me. Some others may need more proof or solid answers in their lives, and that is fine, but in this circumstance I just think to each their own.


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## jaydee

The fact that evolution happened (and we know it did) does not disprove the existence of a higher being or God even though it does put real doubt about the accuracy of the Creation story - and many of the other stories - because that's mostly likely what they were
The time span between Adam and Noah is estimated at somewhere between 950 years and 1700 years. We do know that dinosaurs existed and that was not enough time for them to become extinct and a whole new type of mammal and bird to appear because modern day science does allow us to know how long those creatures were on earth and when
Being able to recite every scripture in the Bible and believing in them all is not going to make someone a good person or a better person than someone who's never read a single word from it


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## tempest

Erina, I'll do my best to explain Chiilaa's post, the parts that are confusing you. I am not Chiilaa but you do seem very confused. 

What Chiilaa is saying about not being a ********* is that what Chiilaa has learned is that the best way to go through life is to not be a *********. That's what I took from that particular statement. Chiilaa isn't calling anyone a ********* (at least I didn't interpret it like that).

And your question about evolving from apes. These might help.
https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/Top10MythsEvol.HTM
Human Evolution | FactMonster.com

If I recall correctly, no scientist (after Darwin's proposition originally came out and was disproven) has ever said that we evolved from apes; I believe that was just an quick assumption and misunderstanding made by people who didn’t like the idea of being related to apes or because it conflicted with their views. On the second link, just before halfway down the page, it addresses this argument.

And sharing the gospel with someone is preaching (regardless of the receiving person's views on the topic).

And Chiilaa’s final point, about not being a nice person if you (general) follow the Bible closely may be based on observations people make from reading the Bible. Observations of God’s followers being very mean and rude and intolerant. That may be where she is getting that from.


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## SouthernTrails

jaydee said:


> The fact that evolution happened (and we know it did) does not disprove the existence of a higher being or God even though it does put real doubt about the accuracy of the Creation story - and many of the other stories - because that's mostly likely what they were
> The time span between Adam and Noah is estimated at somewhere between 950 years and 1700 years. We do know that dinosaurs existed and that was not enough time for them to become extinct and a whole new type of mammal and bird to appear because modern day science does allow us to know how long those creatures were on earth and when
> Being able to recite every scripture in the Bible and believing in them all is not going to make someone a good person or a better person than someone who's never read a single word from it


A few scholars I have talked too had this explanation of Time in the Old Testament, 2nd Peter verse 3 I think it says a day is like a 1000 years to God, so since God inspired the Old Testament and He spoke to the writers, maybe the writers though a day was 24hrs and God meant a day was 1000 years, thus the iniquities of time as in Creation and the length between people in the Old Testament, now when Noah was reported as living 950 years that would have been man writing part of history and not 950x356x1000 years :lol:

So possibly Creation was 6,000 years in our time

Food for thought....

.
.


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## jaydee

We do know that the real creation of the Earth took way more than 6000 years - that doesn't mean that there wasn't something more behind it than a 'big bang' though - just that the person who wrote Genesis got it wrong. 
Its just like the Biblical explanation for why some people were black (The curse of Ham) - they had come across those races in that area at that time so needed an explanation as to why they were different to the other ancestors of Adam & Eve but that's not something we believe in now surely?


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## Saddlebag

Southern, that's the kind of logic that gets people into trouble because it's supposition. 
If someone believes biblical teachings regarding historic events, yet believes in science, that is called ambivalence. The two don't mesh.


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## Foxhunter

I well remember having a wonderful discussion with a teacher at school over the Bible and evolution and he asked me ”What is a day in evolution?"

One thing is that the Bible, in describing how God made the earth they had it right in the process of evolution. 

As for dinosaurs - perhaps God made a mistake hence the meteorite hitting earth causing devastation so He could start with a clean slate!

I believe that 'the sins of the father' does not mean that any parent's child will suffer because the parent sinned, I believe it means that we are reincarnated and in another life, we suffer for previous sins. 

All this discussion has never mentioned anything about Satan. He was promised the Earth before he rebelled and went bad. Surely of you believe in God you have to believe in Satan?

My beliefs vary from what I was taught in that I believe we are all striving for perfection. We have to suffer and learn in life and before we are born we have chosen the life and what is going to happen to us. All part of the learning process towards perfection. Jesus chose to do all his learning in one lifetime. 
This could explain déjà vous. 
Many years ago I went for hypnosis to regress back to when I was born. I did not want to know about previous lives only the moment of birth. 

It was interesting because I did not want to be born, I wanted to stay safe and where I was (must have had a strong will because I was three weeks late!) 
It was an interesting experience because present were two people, Miss Parry who I knew as the school/district nurse and a Dr Gilespie who was not our Dr. 
I could also see that I was not born in the house where I had always thought I was born, which was the nursing home where my sister was born. 
I called my Mother and asked her. When I was born Dr Gilespie had a nursing home which was where I had seen it. Nurse Parry had been the midwife for many years and was in attendance at my birth. There were several other factors that I could not have known but had experienced/seen in the regression. I knew I was a forceps birth and knew I had a water bump on my head, had long hair, and two teeth coming through but I did not know where the marks were and was able to see the bruising which was not on either side of my head. I was able to ask and have this confirmed. 

I did think about going for past life regression but decided against it, not really interested. 

There are many things that happen in life that we cannot explain, some could be coincidence but I often think that it is more than that. I have had to many experiences to believe it is just one of those things. 

As for predictions, what about Nostradamus?


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## SouthernTrails

Saddlebag said:


> Southern, that's the kind of logic that gets people into trouble because it's supposition.
> If someone believes biblical teachings regarding historic events, yet believes in science, that is called ambivalence. The two don't mesh.


Not really, science gives me Aspirin, science has proven the flood did exist, science put a man on the moon. 

How can that be conflicting with Religion?

Did you know chariots and other artifacts were found in the middle of Red Sea about the place where Moses went across.

Sure there are contradictions in the Scriptures they have been translated 1000's of times, there are contradictions in science too, put 5 scientists in a room and you may get at least 3 answers for the same problem :wink:

.


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## Saddlebag

OK, chariots were found in the Red Sea. There is too often an assumption that bodies of water were at the same depth they are now. It could have been that the Sea was much shallower then and a natural sand bar had been formed which permitted travel. Why would God have spoken only to Noah, an old drunk and told him to build an ark. And look at the incest in Noah's family since everyone was supposedly drowned. Anyone who has mucked a stable knows that neither Mary nor Jesus would have survived his birth in a stable nor would Noah's family and the animals have survived the methane gas with only one relatively small opening. In Mary's time many women died in childbirth and if she didn't, only half the children born survived. These make for great stories written 400years after the supposed fact.


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## SouthernTrails

Saddlebag said:


> OK, chariots were found in the Red Sea. There is too often an assumption that bodies of water were at the same depth they are now. It could have been that the Sea was much shallower then and a natural sand bar had been formed which permitted travel. Why would God have spoken only to Noah, an old drunk and told him to build an ark. And look at the incest in Noah's family since everyone was supposedly drowned. Anyone who has mucked a stable knows that neither Mary nor Jesus would have survived his birth in a stable nor would Noah's family and the animals have survived the methane gas with only one relatively small opening. In Mary's time many women died in childbirth and if she didn't, only half the children born survived. These make for great stories written 400years after the supposed fact.


When my Baby Blegian almost died, I spent 14 hours sleeping (not really sleeping if you call keeping one eye open all the time) in a Barn/Stable, no ill effects from that :lol:

Was Jesus born in a stable? â€¢ ChristianAnswers.Net

As I said words have been translated so many times.

Noah, why do you think Noah or any Christian is prefect? Maybe this was Gods way of redeeming Noah.

Can I prove how Jesus was born? No I was not there, and I cannot prove a one celled amoeba crawled out of the mud and turned into a land dweller and then turned into a Monkey as I was not there!

But Christianity has its roots in the Old Testament as does the Jewish Faith and the Muslim Faith, so 3.9 Billion Total people believe in that Basis of the Old Testament, so I guess we are all wrong?:wink:

That is over 55% of the Planets Population, BTW

No harm to me if you do not believe :lol:

.


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## ropinbiker

I do believe we, and all parts of the earth evolve...somewhat -- we adapt, we change, it is small, but there is change.

However, it takes more faith to believe we somehow came from nothing, slithered out of the ocean, there was an explosion and life "became" and then somehow kept "morphing" into other life forms...And, then all was extinct, and it somehow started again....no way, not happening.

I like how some scientists use "carbon dating" for artifacts to summize how old the earth is....carbon dating has only been around for a few decades, and the artifacts that they "date" we really have no idea what has happened to them the last few thousand years.....but, they used a few decades worth of data to "date" old artifacts that have been buried, burned, under water, etc....so in reallity, there is no way to truly know how long these things have been around.

But, hey, if you want to think we came from nothing, or the sea, or an ape, or monkey, or whatever...then that's cool, but it just isn't rational. How did so many DIFFERENT things come from one thing, or nothing, or a few things that once swam? Nope, can't believe that for a minute.


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## jaydee

Science doesn't have to disprove a Creator - it only proves that it took much longer and was far more complicated than the writers of the Bible made it out to be - it has proved that we all go back to one human type originating in Africa and yet look at the different races that emerged from that
Those people only saw what was in their own immediate area - so to them that was the whole world. Many of the animals didn't even exist in that area so no way could they have all been put on an ark - but to people living in those days that was the whole world because they had no idea just how huge it really was
Hinduism is the oldest and the third largest religion in existence today but they have very different stories that they believe in - whats to say they aren't the ones who are right?


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## SouthernTrails

ropinbiker said:


> I like how some scientists use "carbon dating" for artifacts to summize how old the earth is....carbon dating has only been around for a few decades, and the artifacts that they "date" we really have no idea what has happened to them the last few thousand years.....but, they used a few decades worth of data to "date" old artifacts that have been buried, burned, under water, etc....so in reallity, there is no way to truly know how long these things have been around.


There is a well know place where I used to live, where they cut out a major road back in the early 1900's.

One day back in 1970 or so a local college and some scientists were doing a carbon dating test on the rock outcroppings.

What they found was the rocks/earth about 100 foot from the top were 150k years old and the rocks/earth at 200 feet from the top were 25k years old.

Why? The Flood of Noah's time really happened and placed the old rock on top of the younger rocks :lol::lol:

.


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## ErinaStars

tempest said:


> Erina, I'll do my best to explain Chiilaa's post, the parts that are confusing you. I am not Chiilaa but you do seem very confused.
> *It is confusing me, I'll admit, thats why I asked her what she meant.*
> What Chiilaa is saying about not being a ********* is that what Chiilaa has learned is that the best way to go through life is to not be a *********. *She didn't mention that in her statement.*That's what I took from that particular statement. Chiilaa isn't calling anyone a ********* (at least I didn't interpret it like that).*She was talking to me tempest....*
> 
> And your question about evolving from apes. These might help.
> https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/Top10MythsEvol.HTM
> Human Evolution | FactMonster.com
> 
> If I recall correctly, no scientist (after Darwin's proposition originally came out and was disproven) has ever said that we evolved from apes; I believe that was just an quick assumption and misunderstanding made by people who didn’t like the idea of being related to apes or because it conflicted with their views.*The reason I was asking is because I've heard a lot of people actually defend that position(I just can't wrap my brain around such an idea)* On the second link, just before halfway down the page, it addresses this argument.
> 
> And sharing the gospel with someone is preaching (regardless of the receiving person's views on the topic).*I differ with you, but I guess thats just your view. *
> 
> And Chiilaa’s final point, about not being a nice person if you (general)*Again, Chiilaa was talking to me. She even said that she is a better person (if I follow the Bible) out of both of us. She was talking strait at me.* follow the Bible closely may be based on observations people make from reading the Bible. Observations of God’s followers being very mean and rude and intolerant.*She was saying that right at me. I'd like it if she herself would clarify because you cannot speak for her (I do appreciate that you want to be of help though)* That may be where she is getting that from.*Again....I'd like her to clarify for herself.*


In *BOLD *above^^^^^

She said


> *Don't be a **********


, and who was she talking to? Me. 
What is a '*********" tempest(or anyone out there on the forum who knows what it means, I'm really curious now)? 
I pointed these questions to her(since we were in a discussion and I wanted clarity on what she had said to Me)...
So, I would like her to answer and to speak for herself. 

I do appreciate you writing though.
I'll see if I can read the links when I have time...

~Ivy~


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## tempest

Actually, it is possible for the tectonic plates to move in just a way that would put the oldest rocks at the top of a rock formation with the youngest rocks at the bottom.

********* is often synonymous for jerk. And I reread what she wrote and I still don't think she was calling anyone a *********. But I guess only Chiilaa could say for sure. Just because someone is addressing you in a reply doesn't mean that they any foul sounding words that may be said are directed towards you.

Preach (verb)

1. to proclaim or make known by sermon (the gospel, good tidings, etc.). 
2. to deliver (a sermon). 
3. to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.


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## SouthernTrails

tempest said:


> Actually, it is possible for the tectonic plates to move in just a way that would put the oldest rocks at the top of a rock formation with the youngest rocks at the bottom.


There are no indications of that kind of activity or the possibility of that kind of activity in that area of the country :wink:

.


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## tempest

As for the testing itself, carbon dating showed up around 1950, so in the 1970s it would still have faults. However, do you know if they tested the rocks again?


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## SouthernTrails

tempest said:


> As for the testing itself, carbon dating showed up around 1950, so in the 1970s it would still have faults. However, do you know if they tested the rocks again?


No idea, one of my ISP Professors was involved, I moved from the area in the 80's

.


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## Amba1027

ErinaStars said:


> I never thought about that one either:?
> Whats your opinion(if you have one on that)?


I don't believe in heaven or hell. But the rules do say all you have to do is ask forgiveness, so if I did believe in such things I would think that would work.


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## Chiilaa

Erinastars, I did not in anyway call you a *********, and you are really showing your paranoia with your obsession with that, and your inability to read it any other way. Also, I did not say I was better than you, but that I would be considered a much nicer person than anyone who followed every single letter of the bible, even though I am an atheist. Most christians would probably agree with that too, some parts of the bible are particularly nasty, what with all the killing and all. (Also, if anyone other than you had read that I was calling you a *********, the moderators would have removed my post. They are good like that. It's just you reading it wrong there.)

Also, we didn't come from apes (or at least, nothing that would be recognised as modern apes.) Modern apes and humans share a common ancestor. There is a vast difference.

Southern Trails, science proves quite emphatically that a global flood could not possibly have happened. There is absolutely no way. First of all, where did all the water come from? There is not enough water on the planet to cover every land mass. Secondly, why do some cultures that pre-date the flood have absolutely no record of it, and how did they survive? Thirdly, how did the animals replicate themselves again, and what about the animals that didn't make it to the ark?


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## SouthernTrails

Chiilaa said:


> Southern Trails, science proves quite emphatically that a global flood could not possibly have happened. There is absolutely no way. First of all, where did all the water come from? There is not enough water on the planet to cover every land mass. Secondly, why do some cultures that pre-date the flood have absolutely no record of it, and how did they survive? Thirdly, how did the animals replicate themselves again, and what about the animals that didn't make it to the ark?


The water came from the Sky, could not someone who created everything create extra rain and then dry it up?

What culture pre-dates Noah? Of course they would have no record they were destroyed with their records.

How did the animal replicate? A male and female were aboard the Ark and God of course could hold back the problems with genetics with that part of replication. Maybe the dinosaurs did not make it, possible God decided he did not want them anymore.

If we had all the answers two things might be true, the Bible would be 5 million pages thick or we would be gods and all knowing :lol:

.


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## DancingArabian

ErinaStars said:


> @DancingArabian.
> The Big Bang theory....Is that saying that something created something out of nothing?
> 
> 
> I'm sorry if you see it that way.
> I like smileys! Thats just my personal preference...*smile*
> A smile can really brighten up a persons day. People have told me so, and I've seen what a quick smile can do:
> For example, when you walk into Wal-Mart(or some other store), and you see a gloomy face, depressed, blank, ect...ect and you smile a bright and an encouraging smile at them, you should see how their face lights up in just a moment! Like a little bit of sunshine!
> 
> Anyways DancingArabian.....I know the above is off topic but I just got carried away! *laugh*
> 
> 
> ~Ivy~


No the Big Bang theory is not saying something was created out of nothing. It's saying everything has always existed, just not as it is now. Everything was broken up into molecules and atoms and bits. That's why you may hear people say that we are made of stardust.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa

SouthernTrails said:


> What culture pre-dates Noah? Of course they would have no record they were destroyed with their records.
> 
> .


Aboriginals in Australia have been here for between 40 000 and 60 000 years. Noah would have been around in the last 6 000 years (should he have existed at all, and being mentioned in one single book written long years after he died is not confirmation of existence, for what it's worth). Aboriginal cultures have no mention of a single large flood event (smaller, local floods, yes, but not a complete disappearance of the ground one).


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## DancingArabian

Re: humans related to apes

Humans and chimps share something like 98 or 99% of DNA. The differences are due to evolution.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kotori

And Noah couldn't find the unicorn- that's how we have narwhals.

My theory on religion: there are dozens if not hundreds of them, and most of them believe that if you don't believe in their God, you're going to he'll. Instead of wasting time worrying about it, I just live my life as the law says and help others where I can. I trust in the sentiment behind the bible, but not the exact wording- have you seen how many times it has been translated and edited? 

Are you a good person? Look outside- are your animals happy and well fed?


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## Chiilaa

SouthernTrails said:


> The water came from the Sky, could not someone who created everything create extra rain and then dry it up?
> 
> .


Here's a crazy idea. What if, the guy, the one who wrote this, didn't have any idea that the Earth was round, or that there is always a finite amount of the things that make up water? What if there was a flood in his local area, and he thought "Gee whiz, this would make a good story". Poor guy probably didn't even know he was published in the most frequently shoplifted book.


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> This is me laughing at you, just like I said I would.
> 
> :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
> 
> Ok, understand that I had to laugh, because I said I would. In all seriousness, questions are good.


First of all laughing at me and then telling me questions are good is a contradiction and it's rude. Also being rude and laughing at people does not make your point clearer or make you sound 'smarter'.

Also you have given *NO* that evolution exists at all. I simply cannot stretch my imagination to believe just because a horse once was black and now comes in five different coat colors, that sudden;y evolution is a fact. 
How did life form? Where did it come from?
Assuming that you have an answer for the first question:
Can you give me proof that a species over time has changed into an *entirely* different species? (For example: Horses turning into pigs.)


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## MyJumper

DancingArabian said:


> Re: humans related to apes
> 
> Humans and chimps share something like 98 or 99% of DNA. The differences are due to evolution.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That proves nothing really. We share 70% of the same DNA with bananas...


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> First of all laughing at me and then telling me questions are good is a contradiction and it's rude. Also being rude and laughing at people does not make your point clearer or make you sound 'smarter'.
> 
> Also you have given *NO* that evolution exists at all. I simply cannot stretch my imagination to believe just because a horse once was black and now comes in five different coat colors, that sudden;y evolution is a fact.
> How did life form? Where did it come from?
> Assuming that you have an answer for the first question:
> Can you give me proof that a species over time has changed into an *entirely* different species? (For example: Horses turning into pigs.)


That's the thing, you are repeating creationist dogma without realising how ridiculous it is. Horses don't turn into pigs. Pigs don't turn into horses. No one is claiming that.

Let's be clear here - evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. Evolution is what happened AFTER that. I have in no way claimed to be any sort of expert on either evolution or origin of life, but I do know a bit about evolution. As for the origin of life, I don't know enough to form a solid opinion, but I do know that every other mystery ever solved has been of natural causes, so the idea of supernatural being behind this one is getting less and less likely.

Evolution is gradual change over time. That is all it is. Eventually, something will change enough that it is a new species, but it won't change into a new type of animal. Take our horse for example. It started as the tiny little Eohippus, and gradually changed over millions of years into the modern horse. It would have been little changes - a tiny bit of height here, a lost toe there, a bit of hair. The individual in which the change is present is not hugely different from its parents, but a tiny amount of difference is enough. Take the height - the tiny horse that is a smidge taller than the other tiny horses sees a predator a tiny second before the rest of the herd, and manages to get away faster. Because of this advantage, it has more foals than other tiny horses, passing on its smidge more height. That is how evolution works.


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## Kotori

MyJumper said:


> First of all laughing at me and then telling me questions are good is a contradiction and it's rude. Also being rude and laughing at people does not make your point clearer or make you sound 'smarter'.
> 
> Also you have given *NO* that evolution exists at all. I simply cannot stretch my imagination to believe just because a horse once was black and now comes in five different coat colors, that sudden;y evolution is a fact.
> How did life form? Where did it come from?
> Assuming that you have an answer for the first question:
> Can you give me proof that a species over time has changed into an *entirely* different species? (For example: *Horses turning into pigs*.)


That would never happen, since pigs already exist.

So with the DNA thing, you're saying it proves nothing? So zebras can't be related to horses, because they look different? And why are Icelandic horses so different from thoroughbreds? Selection for a certain trait, and if humans can achieve that, then why couldn't mother nature take it one step farther?

Not trying to come off as an attack (after looking over this, it looks like one, but I honestly can't think of a better way to word it) but the last time someone tried to tell me it didn't exist, he told me it was all a government conspiracy.


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## MyJumper

God created the world in *6 literal 24 hour days*. It did not take thousands of years and evolution was not involved at *ALL*.

About the flood:
1.) The water came from the ground (Underground springs) and the sky(rain)

2.)Noah brought 2 of each species onto the ark. Once off the ark they multipled and filled the earth. 

3.) There were 8 people on the ark (Noah, his 3 sons and their wives) After the flood they had children and repopulated the earth.


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## Kotori

MyJumper said:


> God created the world in *6 literal 24 hour days*. It did not take thousands of years and evolution was not involved at *ALL*.
> 
> About the flood:
> 1.) The water came from the ground (Underground springs) and the sky(rain)
> 
> 2.)Noah brought *2 of each species onto the ark*. Once off the ark they multipled and filled the earth.


1) where does it say 24 hours? 
2) this is a common misconception. The truth is he brought 7 of each clean animal and only 2 of the unclean.


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## Saddlebag

And the only way Noah's children could have repopulated the earth was by incestuous relationships. So it's ok for Noah's kin but no one else. Noah missed the Arctic animals, Antarctic, Australia's. The story is pretty far fetched. A duplicate of an ark so described in the bible was built and the design was so bad the first wave action would have had it breaking up. Noah was not a seaman because in his time there were many seaworthy craft but his wasn't one of them.


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> God created the world in *6 literal 24 hour days*. It did not take thousands of years and evolution was not involved at *ALL*. This is wrong. Science has proven evolution, there is no controversy, there is only creationist trying to create controversy where none exists. Look at the evidence, instead of just closing your mind to it. There is evidence of evolution in EVERY FIELD OF SCIENCE. Biologist support it. Astrophysicists support it. Anthropologists support it. Geologists support it. Just because Ken Hams doesn't, does not mean that it is not true. These papers published by creationists, the ones they claim are peer reviewed? They are published in journals set up to promote creationism, and for no other reason. That is not science, it is religion trying to disguise itself.
> 
> About the flood:
> 1.) The water came from the ground (Underground springs) and the sky(rain)
> There is still not enough water on the Earth. No way, no how.
> 2.)Noah brought 2 of each species onto the ark. Once off the ark they multipled and filled the earth. What about kangaroos and koalas? They exist, they are real. Why weren't they on the ark too? How did they come into being if they weren't on the ark at the time of the flood?
> 
> 3.) There were 8 people on the ark (Noah, his 3 sons and their wives) After the flood they had children and repopulated the earth.First of all, ewwww. Secondly, how do we have such diversity in human population today if we came from the DNA of two people? We have examined DNA. We know how much information it carries. There is no way that, within the last 6 000 years, human populations bottlenecked at all, let alone down to 8 individuals. There HAVE been bottlenecks in the past, down to 10 000 individuals perhaps at one point, down to 2 000 perhaps at another. Not 8.


Responses in green.


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## Shropshirerosie

Chiilaa said:


> Morals are actually a side-effect of evolution and societal constructs. I follow a simple moral structure that ensures the success of the human species - don't be a *********. That is as simplified as it gets. I don't do anything that hurts you, and you try not to threaten me with eternal ****ation as much as you can.
> 
> Why would I be the "more good" person? If you are following the bible (even the NT applies here, don't give me a cop out about the OT being the mean one), then you are not going to be a nice person, what with the general nastiness.


@ ErinaStar I am not here to re-enter this discussion on beliefs and religion, because both sides are entrenched and my contribution would add nothing.

However - I am a pedant, and I cannot sit by while you continually misinterpret Chillaa's words here.

Yes, she missed some punctuation that would have made it clearer, but no, she did not call you a *********.

What Chillaa said can be re-written for clarity as this:

I follow a simple moral structure which could be summed up by the simple instruction "do not be a *********". That is as simplified as it gets......

What she did not say is this:

I follow a simple moral structure which ensures the success of the human species. Don't be a *********!

The difference between a hyphen and a full stop (period) is important to recognise.


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## MyJumper

I'm only repeating myself, because you had not answered my questions.

You say you don't know how life started, but you refuse to believe God.
You have no proof for your belief. Adaption does not proof evolution.

You continue to repeat yourself. I too believe in evolution, Micro-evolution. I doesn't matter how many times you laugh at me, laughing does not make your argument true. Micro-evolution is real, Macro-evolution is not. I know pigs are already alive, I was using them as an example. I wanted you to give me proof from the fossil record that one species changed into another. But you can't. The fossil record shows no evolution. You make a lot of assumptions in your belief system. You assume that life was formed without any divine interaction. You assume life needed to evolve. You assume that as it evolved, it changed into different species.you haven't given proof for any of assumptions.


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## MyJumper

Kotori said:


> That would never happen, since pigs already exist.
> 
> So with the DNA thing, you're saying it proves nothing? So zebras can't be related to horses, because they look different? And why are Icelandic horses so different from thoroughbreds? Selection for a certain trait, and if humans can achieve that, then why couldn't mother nature take it one step farther?.


I never said zebras weren't related to horses. I was trying to point out that we share our DNA with a lot of things whether or not we're related.

I was using pigs as an example. :lol: I was asking for proof that one species can turn into another. There is no proof of that happening. To believe mother nature over millions of years could change one species into another requires blind faith, since you have no proof.

As to the day thing, the Hebrew word there means 24 hour time period.

I do know about the 7 clean animals on the ark, I was just too lazy to write all that detail.:lol:


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> I'm only repeating myself, because you had not answered my questions.
> 
> You say you don't know how life started, but you refuse to believe God.
> You have no proof for your belief. Adaption does not proof evolution.
> 
> You continue to repeat yourself. I too believe in evolution, Micro-evolution. I doesn't matter how many times you laugh at me, laughing does not make your argument true. Micro-evolution is real, Macro-evolution is not. I know pigs are already alive, I was using them as an example. I wanted you to give me proof from the fossil record that one species changed into another. But you can't. The fossil record shows no evolution. You make a lot of assumptions in your belief system. You assume that life was formed without any divine interaction. You assume life needed to evolve. You assume that as it evolved, it changed into different species.you haven't given proof for any of assumptions.


See, that's the thing. Adaptation IS evolution. They are one and the same. Gradual change to suit environmental conditions. Creationists like to throw around the terms "micro" and "macro" as if they are completely separate processes, involving different steps for different reasons. They aren't. Change is slow, and is in tiny steps. Sure, an animal that has a slight mutation can still breed with the same species as its parents. So can it's slightly mutated children. However, after a long time (talking a few thousand generations at least), the "current" model of the animal will have sufficient change to be something different to those original animals. 

I don't believe that any god created life. There is not a single shred of evidence for this to be true. Sure, there is not much evidence for any of the hypothesis about abiogenesis, but that doesn't mean that "god did it". That is the classic "god of the gaps" fallacy, and I just won't buy into it. Every other mystery we have ever solved has turned out to be not god. Why should this be any different?


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> I never said zebras weren't related to horses. I was trying to point out that we share our DNA with a lot of things whether or not we're related.
> 
> I was using pigs as an example. :lol: I was asking for proof that one species can turn into another. There is no proof of that happening. To believe mother nature over millions of years could change one species into another requires blind faith, since you have no proof.
> 
> As to the day thing, the Hebrew word there means 24 hour time period.
> 
> I do know about the 7 clean animals on the ark, I was just too lazy to write all that detail.:lol:


There is proof. There is so much proof that it is astounding.

DNA is evidence for evolution. It fits the theory. We share enough DNA with plants to prove we shared a common ancestor at one point. Life forms that are similar share a higher percentage of DNA than life forms that are dissimilar. 

The fossil record is evidence for evolution. If you look at the fossils from the pre-Cambrian times, through the Cambrian, you can clearly see the development of life forms. Horses have one of the most extensively known evolutionary paths, you should check them out some time. 

Dating is evidence for evolution. Contrary to creationist rumour, science uses more than a dozen different dating methods, and, coincidentally, they all tell us the same thing - how old things are. Just like many other things we have in our technologically rich world, these dating methods are all suited to different time scales, but there is crossover that confirms the validity of these methods.

There is a huge amount of evidence out there for evolution. See, in science talk, the word "theory" is one that is commonly misinterpreted, most commonly to support creationism. "Theory" doesn't mean "I have a hunch this is true". Instead, "theory" means "an explanation for an occurrence that has a large body of evidence to support it". Put it this way - gravity is a theory, yet no one is trying to say that doesn't happen.


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## jaydee

SouthernTrails said:


> The water came from the Sky, could not someone who created everything create extra rain and then dry it up?
> 
> What culture pre-dates Noah? Of course they would have no record they were destroyed with their records.
> 
> How did the animal replicate? A male and female were aboard the Ark and God of course could hold back the problems with genetics with that part of replication. Maybe the dinosaurs did not make it, possible God decided he did not want them anymore.
> 
> If we had all the answers two things might be true, the Bible would be 5 million pages thick or we would be gods and all knowing :lol:
> 
> .


It would take more than 40 days and nights of rain to flood the entire world but various parts of the world have been underwater at different times - Cleeve Hill in the UK where we often walked as children was covered in fossils of sea creatures - but that was more to do with Teutonic plate movement which raised, lowered and moved huge land masses than rainfall.
The oldest site of civilization is possibly in South Africa though little is known of the people who lived there the origins of todays humans does trace back to Africa.
http://www.michaeltellinger.com/stone-circles.php

The earliest signs of humans living in a settled lifestyle developing agriculture and forms of housing date back to 12000BC 
Judaism is quite young compared to the earlier forms of worship and appeared approx. 1000 years after Hinduism
Using Biblical dating to give a time for the flood to have occurred - and the level of civilization they were at - its also possible to use known reliable existing ancient records from other civilizations that were thriving at the same time to know that they weren't affected by a flood at that same time - even in Egypt that was a close neighbor, the Chinese have an ancient sacred book that dates back to the time Noah is supposed to have lived that gives no account of a flood devastating their part of the world
At the accepted time in history that Noah lived there were advanced civilizations in Mesopotamia (Sumer), Egypt, China, Minoan, Indus Valley and Phoenicia 
There's also something like 200000 different species of animal alive today and given that a large number have become extinct since the time of Noah that would have been a lot of live cargo. 
I think if you try to use the Old Testament as historical proof of God then you're more likely to destroy your faith than strengthen it. 
What sets humans apart from animals isn't a belief in punishment from some divine creator or the promise of an afterlife - because there are millions of good people who don't have those beliefs - its called a conscience and the ability to empathize. Atheists aren't evil people


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## ErinaStars

Chiilaa said:


> Erinastars, I did not in anyway call you a *********, and you are really showing your paranoia with your obsession with that, and your inability to read it any other way. Also, I did not say I was better than you, but that I would be considered a much nicer person than anyone who followed every single letter of the bible, even though I am an atheist. Most christians would probably agree with that too, some parts of the bible are particularly nasty, what with all the killing and all. (Also, if anyone other than you had read that I was calling you a *********, the moderators would have removed my post. They are good like that. It's just you reading it wrong there.)
> 
> Also, we didn't come from apes (or at least, nothing that would be recognised as modern apes.) Modern apes and humans share a common ancestor. There is a vast difference.
> 
> Southern Trails, science proves quite emphatically that a global flood could not possibly have happened. There is absolutely no way. First of all, where did all the water come from? There is not enough water on the planet to cover every land mass. Secondly, why do some cultures that pre-date the flood have absolutely no record of it, and how did they survive? Thirdly, how did the animals replicate themselves again, and what about the animals that didn't make it to the ark?


Thanks for making things clear Chiilaa! That was all I wanted so thanks


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## ErinaStars

Shropshirerosie said:


> @ ErinaStar I am not here to re-enter this discussion on beliefs and religion, because both sides are entrenched and my contribution would add nothing.
> 
> However - I am a pedant, and I cannot sit by while you continually misinterpret Chillaa's words here.*I just didn't understand what she was saying Shropshirerosie...I already said that I did not understand in another post. That is way I "asked for clarity".*
> 
> Yes, she missed some punctuation that would have made it clearer, but no, she did not call you a *********.*Ok, thanks! *
> 
> What Chillaa said can be re-written for clarity as this:
> 
> I follow a simple moral structure which could be summed up by the simple instruction "do not be a *********". That is as simplified as it gets......
> 
> What she did not say is this:
> 
> I follow a simple moral structure which ensures the success of the human species. Don't be a *********!
> 
> The difference between a hyphen and a full stop (period) is important to recognise.*Thanks again Shropshirerosie!*


Above in *BOLD*
@Shropshirerosie Thanks for jumping in, it is greatly appreciated=)! 

=),
~Ivy~


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## Chokolate

Interesting where this thread went 

Not going to get really into this discussion, but here is one thing I personally consider proof for evolution and natural selection. 

Lines of Evidence: Experiments

(Read the next topic as well, there's a little button down the bottom on the right to go to it.)

Here, the guppies evolved to have duller colours so as not to be eaten. Only one thing was changed in their environment for this to happen. If the whole landscape changed gradually where some guppies lived, this is evidence that they would again adapt. If the landscape was different enough, they would become a separate species or type to guppies living in their original environment. This is evolution. 

Over millions of years, guppies living in a changing environment will eventually become a completely different animal to the original guppy. They may become duller, or, if water dries up, they may grow legs and breathe air. Proof of this in all animals is found in DNA, in looking at bone structure and skeletons (basically all mammals share the same design = common ancestor), looking at how the internal organs work (again, all the same, all down through history back to dinosaurs and before.)

As for micro- and macro- evolution, I've never heard of it. All species changing to adapt to a new environment or new challenges is evolution.

Wow I said a bit more than I meant to...carry on!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dozer789

If evolution is real, there should be more fossils of animals evolving than there are of them that aren't evolved. Also, scientists say they found "proof" that evolution is real, by saying they found fossils, and that it proves humans evolved from apes. They have only found 5 or so, and all of them have been debunked, so does that say anything? 
To anyone who does not believe in evolution, and the people who do believe in evolution; You should watch debates, and other videos by Kent Hovind.


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## jaydee

There is quite good fossil evidence to show how the horse evolved over time
Considering that you're looking at a process that took place over millions of years and that conditions have to be perfect for bones to be preserved its more amazing that as many are found at all
Most modern scientist don't support the theory that humans evolved from apes - research has moved way beyond that. Similarities in chromosomes indicate that they are a very close relative and most probably had a common ancestor - but that goes back some 8 million years
From recent finds its believed that modern man and Neanderthal man co-existed from 100,000 to 28,000 years ago and may even have interbred


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## Chokolate

Yes, one very common misconception is that humans evolved from apes. Like several have said, scientists do not believe this to be the case. Instead, we, chimpanzees, gorillas, monkeys and the like all have a common ancestor. The idea is that part of the ancestor species adapted to a new or changing environment and, over millions of years, became something so different that it was a new species.

As for the 'there should be more evolved fossils than non evolved'...all animals have evolved from those single cells which first floated around in the water many hundreds of millions of years ago. There is no such thing as a completely non evolved animal. Whenever there is need, an animal will change.

Also, there really aren't that many fossils. The conditions for making one are so precise we're lucky we have so many! Plus because they have to be made in a river or water body animals who lived in dry places were even more unlikely to have one made once they died. 

------

To address something completely different, a very reasonable answer in science is simply 'we don't know.' Just because we don't know exactly where life came from originally does not prove the existence of a god. It means that we don't know yet. Instead of putting faith in a higher power we can in no way prove exists, we can keep searching for the answer in a logical way.

Why should we not put our belief into a theory which has been proven (or at least partially proven for those who do not wish to accept all the proof)? Why should we believe in a God? None of what He has supposedly done can be proven any more than our theories and science, logic, and known history contradicts many of the stories.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DancingArabian

Why is it that evolution requires proof but god creating the earth does not? 

Where is the proof that god created the earth, or anything, or even exists? Hard, solid proof. Not interpreted proof. Not man-made proof. Where are your 'fossils'?

Edited to add: General you, not directed at anyone specific.


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## Missy May

Dozer789 said:


> If evolution is real, there should be more fossils of animals evolving than there are of them that aren't evolved. Also, scientists say they found "proof" that evolution is real, by saying they found fossils, and that it proves humans evolved from apes. They have only found 5 or so, and all of them have been debunked, so does that say anything?
> To anyone who does not believe in evolution, and the people who do believe in evolution; You should watch debates, and other videos by Kent Hovind.


Evolution is a theory, and no scientist worth their weight will state they found "proof". They will probably say the data currently available supports the theory, or something along those lines. And, as others have stated, humans did not evolve from apes and no respected scientist has ever stated they did.

I have a lot of problems with the current evolution models. I also have a scientific reason for not appreciating _any_ theory being treated like a religion. It slows scientific research and advancement of knowledge to a crawl, if not altogether ends it. And, it (theory of evolution) has been treated like a religion for far to long. 

I have met many people that say they "believe in evolution", but couldn't actually tell you, on a fifth grade level, what exactly the theory of evolution involves. That is pure blind faith. If someone is atheist, so be it, but that doesn't "require" finding a "alternative" belief.


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## Missy May

DancingArabian said:


> Why is it that evolution requires proof but god creating the earth does not?
> 
> Where is the proof that god created the earth, or anything, or even exists? Hard, solid proof. Not interpreted proof. Not man-made proof. Where are your 'fossils'?
> 
> Edited to add: General you, not directed at anyone specific.


There is a vast difference between a scientific theory, and a religious belief. If one understands the difference, they don't ask for data or measurable evidence to substantiate the latter.


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> See, that's the thing. Adaptation IS evolution. They are one and the same. Gradual change to suit environmental conditions. Creationists like to throw around the terms "micro" and "macro" as if they are completely separate processes, involving different steps for different reasons. They aren't. Change is slow, and is in tiny steps. Sure, an animal that has a slight mutation can still breed with the same species as its parents. So can it's slightly mutated children. However, after a long time (talking a few thousand generations at least), the "current" model of the animal will have sufficient change to be something different to those original animals.


You're forgetting a few things. Things like:
*Genetic Limitations* 
Horse breeders can breed anything from a Clydesdale to a Fallabella; we can have zorses, zonkeys and mules. But despite the best attempts by intelligent breeders an Equus will always remain an Equus. Scientist have tried to manipulate fruit flies, however their experiments only produce fruit flies. No intelligent scientist has ever been able to produce something other than a fruit fly. 

*Cyclical Changes*
Most of the time an animal goes through a cyclical of adaption. For example Darwin’s finches, would have varying beak sizes dependent on the weather. But they never really made any change toward a new creature; they just cycled back on forth depending on what beak size they needed.

*Amazing Complexity*
Darwin was quoted as saying, “If it can be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications my theory would absolutely break down.” Now we know that there are many things which can break Darwin’s theory, things like cells. Cells are extremely complex. If just one system, one part wasn’t functioning properly, the cell would never survive. Slight modifications over millions of years would never work. The cell would have died long, long ago.

*Survival of Transitional Forms*
Even if you had proof that there were transitional forms, how would they survive? A half-bird , half-reptile would probably die immediately. A fish with lungs instead of gills would never survive.


As others have said the fossil record does not show evolution at all. It shows animals from the time they lived until they became extinct remaining the same, no changes nothing.


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## MyJumper

DancingArabian said:


> Where is the proof that god created the earth, or anything, or even exists? Hard, solid proof. Not interpreted proof. Not man-made proof. Where are your 'fossils'?


1.) An intelligent design, requires a designer. 
2.) Miracles
3.) Jesus 
4.) The Universe has a beginning and an end. 


The fossil record matches up with the biblical record. Animals staying the same, not evolving. The flood would produce the perfect conditions to produce fossils, which is why we have so many.


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## Foxhunter

Recently the body of King Richard 3rd was found. These remains are 500 years old, one of the changes found with bodies found that are just 500 years old is in the teeth. We modern man have an overbite of the teeth, the old bodies did not because they used their hands to eat with a tore meat from the bones. 
Nothing much but surely a small change that could count as evolution? 

There is a big gap between Neanderthal man and modern man. Just supposing there were two 'human' species evolving at the same time? One, the Neanderthal died out and modern man, who some believe were amphibious creatures actually came from the sea hence why no developing remains have been found?


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## jaydee

The Qur'an version of the Flood in Noah's time implies that it was regional and not global - there is no global evidence that the world was all underwater at one set time
We don't have many fossils - when you look at how many animals have existed on the earth the number of fossils we have is tiny
If the Universe had a beginning and an end there would be a wall of sorts at either end - but there's always something on the other side of that wall!!!
Scientists are likely not that far off being able to create life but the chances of them ever being allowed to do that are unlikely - even cloning & GM crops has thrown up a lot of hysteria
Science doesn't disprove a creator - but it does disprove the time scale in the Biblical creation version - it was written by a man or men - not by God
And then you have the question - Who created God? Another God?


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## ErinaStars

Dozer789 said:


> If evolution is real, there should be more fossils of animals evolving than there are of them that aren't evolved. Also, scientists say they found "proof" that evolution is real, by saying they found fossils, and that it proves humans evolved from apes. They have only found 5 or so, and all of them have been debunked, so does that say anything?
> To anyone who does not believe in evolution, and the people who do believe in evolution; You should watch debates, and other videos by Kent Hovind.


Kent Hovind's videos are awesome! My family and I really enjoyed watching some of the debates he had with atheist and evolutionists! It was really great! 

Really, y'all should see some of those debates folks!


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## ErinaStars




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## jaydee

Meryl Streep famously won a case in CT to oppose the use of a certain chemical on apple orchards where she represented the opposition and managed to convince them she was right over the expert scientists who had all the real evidence because she was a very convincing speaker even though she was actually incorrect


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## ladygodiva1228

Lets throw another wrench in the whole creation vs. evolution debate.

Who is to say that beyond our galaxy there is not other forms of life who at one time found our solar system by pure chance. As they looked at the different planets and how they orbited around the sun they decided to try an experiment. They felt that Earth was the ideal test plant. They started with plant life and then added animal life starting with dinosaurs. As they watched the dinosaurs grow to enourmous creatures over millions of years they realized that their size was not suitable for the plant and destroyed them. 

They then tried smaller species and different types like mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, etc. I believe there was a type of human added into the mix to see who and what thrived and became the dominate species of the planet. 

Look at how the human race has evolved in the last 150 years we went from horses as our only means of transportation to space shuttles to the moon. Something or someone had to of put those ideas in our heads. 

There are past cultures that have been discovered tthat had elongated skulls and drawings showing a "higher" being with an elongated head. Those cultures bound their heads to be more like the "God" they worshiped.


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## jaydee

There are some really strange things on the Polynesian Islands that make you wonder


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## Shropshirerosie

ladygodiva1228 said:


> Look at how the human race has evolved in the last 150 years we went from horses as our only means of transportation to space shuttles to the moon. Something or someone had to of put those ideas in our heads.


I disagree with this. The more you study civilisations across the world and throughout history, you will see that Man has always been imagining, exploring, inventing and creating.

The differences between the intellectual exploration made by the ancient Egyptians, the Europeans of the Renaissance, the inventors of the Western Industrial Revolution, are much less than you think. There a few small but vital factors that can be used to explain why one civilisation achieved certain things and others not.

Until the discovery of Antibiotics and vaccines man was anchored to the primal pursuit of staying alive. This takes up so much time that there is little time left to invent the internal combustion engine. But you look into history of cultures and religions and you will see that pretty much every peoples have looked up to the stars and wondered what was there.

Add horse-less transport and industrial machinery to an epidemic free population and it suddenly becomes easy to feed the population, to feed a workforce, and to free up the populace from the struggle to stay well fed. THEN it was possible to invest surplus resources into designing spacecraft. The motivation and desire had always been there, but not the means.


I think that the amazing facts of our planet, of life, of evolution, of man's ability to think, converse, imagine, and create are huge. To try to 'excuse' our achievements by suggesting that aliens gave us the idea is at best lazy and at worst insulting to every great thinker that has been on this planet.

Genghis Khan, Leonardo da Vinci, Amerigo Vespucci, Confucius, Plato, Charles Darwin, Bill Gates. I think they would all argue that original thought comes from Man and Man alone.


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## New_image

@ ErinaStars - what exactly is your _goal _with this test? 

"This test showed you how you stand up when judged by just five of God's Ten Commandments."
Except for the fact that there are 613. Lucky for me Jesus came to fulfill the Law. 

Your questions are ridiculous. This test does not prove anything to anyone outside of how ANNOYING Christians are. What kind of a response were you hoping to get? 

I couldn't read much more than a few pages of this debate. You said "Well that (little sin) is serious in God's eyes, and since He is Holy he can't have sinners in heaven. That's why he sent His son to the earth to save us from our sins."
He cannot have sinners in heaven? Then where does that leave you? You and I will sin until we take our very last breath. No matter how hard we try we cannot even come close to living up to God's law. Read the Sermon on the Mount. The "Ten Commandments" says "You shall not murder and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment." BUT Jesus takes it a step farther to say "But I tell you that anyone who is _angry_ with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment." Have you ever been angry? Then you are just as guilty as a guy who has murdered. How about this one, "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery." Again, Jesus continues "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

I for one am angry about something trivial nearly every day. I worry. I judge. I sin. I am a great person. I am also fantastic at sinning.

Why do all of the Christians assume A) that every non-believer is a bad person and B) that showing the non-believer how awful and dirty they really are by means of judgement and online tests is going to send them running to God?

Not to mention, this website is confusing. Its like you are trying to preach "do more, try harder, be a good person, keep yourself out of hell" and trying to preach God's grace saying "you cannot win brownie points for sitting in the pew every Sunday, you need Jesus" IF I were to go through the test I just took (granted, only half of the test worked for me???) as a non-Christian, I would say "Super. The God that I do not believe in has un-obtainable goals that I must reach but I cannot even win extra credit for doing things like donating to the poor, which is a good thing to do." 

It makes me wonder sometimes if Christians have taken "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost" and turned it into "Jesus tells us to to seek and to save the lost." Which always ends up "Seek and annoy the p!ss out of the lost."


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## Missy May

I am not sure what the point is here. That people shouldn't have a religion b/c there is scientific evidence that supports the theory of evolution, or that religion should be attacked on the same basis?

Lets try this. Okay, so say someone feels comfy with their vast and all knowing knowledge of the theory of evolution, which itself has greatly evolved over time and they feel infinitely intellectually superior to those ignorant "religious folks". Explain the mathematical probability of a single species evolving on a planet along side millions of other species that not only develops opposing thumbs and a voice box that "sets it apart" from "the others", but ALSO gets graced with intelligence that far exceeds all others, AND emotions, AND compassion, AND a memory, AND the ability to contemplate the future, AND mourns their dead, AND, etc., etc,. etc.,. My guess is, the probability is so tiny it would not be accepted as "fact" by any reasonable thinking individual. Yet, with zero evidence that fellow creatures are large blobs of motor response - it is/has been the accepted "religion" of evolutionist and the religious, alike. Only in very recent history has this "belief" been seriously challenged. 

Here is a good example of how "religion" cloaked as "science" is deadly. It was once "accepted" and taken as the gospel on "faith" by the scientific "community" that birds, having small brains by mere fact their heads are small, dedicated most of their brain matter to the motor responses required for the extreme complexities of flight. No real need for proof, since it was taken to be "true" on faith. Of course, to the shock and horror of the Scientific's most revered holy men, it was proven WRONG by a very inexpensive, but time consuming experiment at the U of A, among other places. Wow, the scientific Pope must have felt he was in danger of loosing his sheep. 

Just about every single man made thing you touch today, or in your life, and the skills you employ are the direct result of contributions of very tiny, tiny percentage of the human population over thousands of years, aka as geniuses. The great "intelligence" humans believe they posses is far from a characteristic shared by all. Yet, humans appear to collectively and on an individual basis believe intelligence "sets them apart", and some believe they are really smart b/c they aren't religious.

Lets try this. Does/did the theory of evolution have some "religious exception" that prevents an honest scientific discussion concerning the origins of the differences in peoples? Or even - the actual differences? Humans are by far the most narcissistic of all species, and this doesn't garner extreme interest? It is accepted and taught that there are no differences? In order for that to be even _remotely_ possible, human kind would have to have been "created". Uh, oh....oh, no.

I have a faith. I am free to have one in this country, as is everyone. What my personal faith is probably not in total concert w any other individual's. And, I do understand the differences between "scientific method", what is sold as "science", and "fact". I think it is wrong to not question the accuracy of a theory on the basis one "believes on faith" it is "fact", much less attack another "religion" on that basis.

FWIW, on a scientific basis, including evolution, I do not at all believe we are "set apart" from fellow creatures, and my religion dictates that I do not treat them as disposable.


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## ladygodiva1228

Shropshirerosie said:


> I disagree with this. The more you study civilisations across the world and throughout history, you will see that Man has always been imagining, exploring, inventing and creating.
> 
> The differences between the intellectual exploration made by the ancient Egyptians, the Europeans of the Renaissance, the inventors of the Western Industrial Revolution, are much less than you think. There a few small but vital factors that can be used to explain why one civilisation achieved certain things and others not.
> 
> Until the discovery of Antibiotics and vaccines man was anchored to the primal pursuit of staying alive. This takes up so much time that there is little time left to invent the internal combustion engine. But you look into history of cultures and religions and you will see that pretty much every peoples have looked up to the stars and wondered what was there.
> 
> Add horse-less transport and industrial machinery to an epidemic free population and it suddenly becomes easy to feed the population, to feed a workforce, and to free up the populace from the struggle to stay well fed. THEN it was possible to invest surplus resources into designing spacecraft. The motivation and desire had always been there, but not the means.
> 
> 
> I think that the amazing facts of our planet, of life, of evolution, of man's ability to think, converse, imagine, and create are huge. *To try to 'excuse' our achievements by suggesting that aliens gave us the idea is at best lazy and at worst insulting to every great thinker that has been on this planet.*
> 
> Genghis Khan, Leonardo da Vinci, Amerigo Vespucci, Confucius, Plato, Charles Darwin, Bill Gates. I think they would all argue that original thought comes from Man and Man alone.


*I wasn't trying to excuse anything I was trying have people think outside the box. No one knows how this plant or the universe formed. No one knows what made the great thinkers achieve what they did, maybe they saw something and thought "wow how can that be done"? Or maybe something came to them in a dream. *
*We don't know and we will probably never know. People need to have an open mind and look at all possible scenarios that could have happened throughout this planets life*.​


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## Missy May

We shouldn't forget that along with all the wonderful things people believe human kind has achieved, one the most visible is destruction. It would appear they don't/didn't have the intelligence to calculate that into their activities.


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## jaydee

I think LadyGodiva was just trying to add some more flavor to the discussion
For all we know we might be ancestors of some aliens that crash landed here thousands of years ago and had to start again from scratch
If we humans were the best a creator could come up with I would think he's already busy cooking up a new batch to replace us because we're a pretty weak, fragile, tribal, warmongering, mentally and physically challenged lot!!!!


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## ladygodiva1228

Missy May said:


> We shouldn't forget that along with all the wonderful things people believe human kind has achieved, one the most visible is destruction. It would appear they don't/didn't have the intelligence to calculate that into their activities.


 
I couldn't agree with more about that. And it has been seen over and over again throughout history.


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## Missy May

The truth is, I just can't seem to find it in my heart to be a fan of my own species - its collective arrogance is astounding. However, no _real_ scientist would say "a creator of some sort cannot be a possibility b/c I say so, so completely remove it from the table of 'possible explanations' ". Likewise, they can't completely remove "aliens" from the table, either. To remove either would mean that, if at some future point evidence strongly pointed to one or the other, neither could be considered. Eliminating possibilities for consideration _before_ all the data is in - simply isn't how "good science" is conducted. 

For starters, you can't just take the building blocks of "life", mix them up or even put them in exact correct order and get "life". What , exactly, "life" is - remains a mystery, yet I can sit here on a computer and discuss evolution - world wide, or on the phone at the speed of light. We know so little, so no point in pretending we are so advanced and have all the answers.

Religion requires faith, something "scientist" do not feel the "lesser species" are intellectual capable of "practicing". Needless to say, I disagree. But, I don't see a reason to attack anyone's "belief" in how we all arrived here - be it evolution or by a higher power. 

Am I a good person? Well, everyone tells me so, by golly.  In the eyes of God? I am soooo not in a hurry to find out the answer to that question, and no earthly being can answer that for me. I think questions should be phrased correctly, such as, "are you a good person as measured by "so and so's" measuring stick for "good"?


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## ladygodiva1228

I think religions are needed. I myself am not a religious person, but I know many people who are, including some family members. 
I would never disrespect or put someone down because they believed in God or a God, just as they would never do that to me because I believe in something else. 

I will say there is one organization, as I truly do not feel they are a church of any God, that just disgusts me. I believe most, if not all of you know who I am talking about. The crap that spills from that place and what they do to people is just unacceptable in my eyes.


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## Missy May

I'll second that Ladygodiva. Believing something is fine, believing it is a heaven sent license to kill, maim, and torture is not. Big diff in my book.


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## DancingArabian

MyJumper said:


> 1.) An intelligent design, requires a designer.
> 2.) Miracles
> 3.) Jesus
> 4.) The Universe has a beginning and an end.
> 
> 
> The fossil record matches up with the biblical record. Animals staying the same, not evolving. The flood would produce the perfect conditions to produce fossils, which is why we have so many.


1. You're assuming we were created off an intelligent design. That's a theory, not a fact. No fossil here.
2. I can claim anything coincidental or fortunate or that I simply cant explain to be a miracle. No fossil here.
3. I don't believe Jesus in the bible ever existed. Dusty old parchments saying he did is not evidence. I could write out something that's a flat out lie now and that doesn't make it true in the future. Where are his remains? How do we even know those are his remains? Why can we not trace ANYONE back to the apostles or Jesus? No fossil here.
4. The universe is not known to have a beginning or an end. Just a theory. Maybe everything destroys itself in a giant explosion, breaking all matter down to molecules and they float around until another Big Bang comes and starts it all back up again. No fossil here.

The fossils are dated millions of years old. No evidence showing humans existed with dinosaurs. No fossil here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DancingArabian

Missy May said:


> There is a vast difference between a scientific theory, and a religious belief. If one understands the difference, they don't ask for data or measurable evidence to substantiate the latter.


A belief is a belief. Science or religion just determine how you got there.

We have faith that our science is right when we say that the sun is 14 billion years old (or however old it is). We cannot prove that number. We have math that says that number is correct. However, even two points on a curved line, if close enough together, can work for a formula for a straight line. Doesn't remove them from that curve though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May

DancingArabian said:


> A belief is a belief. Science or religion just determine how you got there.
> 
> We have faith that our science is right when we say that the sun is 14 billion years old (or however old it is). We cannot prove that number. We have math that says that number is correct. However, even two points on a curved line, if close enough together, can work for a formula for a straight line. Doesn't remove them from that curve though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not sure who "we" are that have "faith" that "science" is "right". No, we don't have "math" that says "that number is correct", we have applied mathematical techniques. And, it isn't just a number of years that is provided by anyone concerning the _estimated_ age of the sun, it is ordinarily expected, and for good reason, that it is followed by "as determined by "x" method". The method and to what it can be applied is accepted by experts in an area, and it is published and generally sports a title and a number, and it describes the method in great detail, including instrumentation and applicable calculation. It is hardly accepted on "faith" by anyone actually operating above board in the "area" of science - and it is near guaranteed that someone else will publish another paper questioning the accuracy of the method. 

Anything can be described mathematically, however, one would have to know how, what, and to what to correctly apply the math. That isn't a matter of "faith", it is a matter of fact which in and of itself, proves little.

Some people do blindly accept statements from the scientific arena as fact. And, yes...that qualifies as "faith", it does not qualify as "science".


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## Chiilaa

Agreed Missy May. I don't have "faith" in science. I choose to always question. I educate myself on areas that I am interested in by examining all the evidence available. As well as that, I am not afraid to say "I don't know". Science is not about faith, nor about accepting anything as fact - without rigorous examination and testing. Most scientists don't set out to prove each other right - they much prefer to prove each other wrong. 

If just one person could collate all the evidence that disproves evolution, present it in an academic paper, and submit it to a respectable (read: not run by creationists to get intelligent design into the science classroom) journal, then you can proceed directly to the Nobel Prize that will be waiting for you. Unfortunately, that is yet to happen.


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## MyJumper

jaydee said:


> The Qur'an version of the Flood in Noah's time implies that it was regional and not global - there is no global evidence that the world was all underwater at one set time *I don't believe the Qur'an, it is contradictory to the Bible.*
> We don't have many fossils - when you look at how many animals have existed on the earth the number of fossils we have is tiny
> If the Universe had a beginning and an end there would be a wall of sorts at either end - but there's always something on the other side of that wall!!! *What?*
> Scientists are likely not that far off being able to create life but the chances of them ever being allowed to do that are unlikely - even cloning & GM crops has thrown up a lot of hysteria
> Science doesn't disprove a creator - but it does disprove the time scale in the Biblical creation version - it was written by a man or men - not by God
> And then you have the question - Who created God? Another God? *No one created God. God lives outside the realm of time and does not need a creator. He always existed.*


My answers in Bold.


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## MyJumper

New_image said:


> @ ErinaStars - what exactly is your _goal _with this test?
> 
> "This test showed you how you stand up when judged by just five of God's Ten Commandments."
> Except for the fact that there are 613. Lucky for me Jesus came to fulfill the Law.
> 
> Your questions are ridiculous. This test does not prove anything to anyone outside of how ANNOYING Christians are. What kind of a response were you hoping to get?* I think she was trying to show people that they are sinners and need Jesus.
> *
> I couldn't read much more than a few pages of this debate. You said "Well that (little sin) is serious in God's eyes, and since He is Holy he can't have sinners in heaven. That's why he sent His son to the earth to save us from our sins."
> He cannot have sinners in heaven? Then where does that leave you? You and I will sin until we take our very last breath. No matter how hard we try we cannot even come close to living up to God's law. Read the Sermon on the Mount. The "Ten Commandments" says "You shall not murder and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment." BUT Jesus takes it a step farther to say "But I tell you that anyone who is _angry_ with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment." Have you ever been angry? Then you are just as guilty as a guy who has murdered. How about this one, "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery." Again, Jesus continues "But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." *Yes, that's why Jesus died for our sins. We will always sin, but we are forgiven and can go to heaven.*
> 
> I for one am angry about something trivial nearly every day. I worry. I judge. I sin. I am a great person. I am also fantastic at sinning. *I'm too am fantastic at sinning, welcome to the club*.
> 
> Why do all of the Christians assume A) that every non-believer is a bad person and B) that showing the non-believer how awful and dirty they really are by means of judgement and online tests is going to send them running to God?
> *A.) Because everyone, regardless of whether you are a believer or non-believer is a sinner and a bad person.
> b.) Because no one needs a savoir if they haven't sinned. You have to show someone that they are a sinner before they can be saved. (It's also the method Jesus used.)*
> 
> Not to mention, this website is confusing. Its like you are trying to preach "do more, try harder, be a good person, keep yourself out of hell" and trying to preach God's grace saying "you cannot win brownie points for sitting in the pew every Sunday, you need Jesus" IF I were to go through the test I just took (granted, only half of the test worked for me???) as a non-Christian, I would say "Super. The God that I do not believe in has un-obtainable goals that I must reach but I cannot even win extra credit for doing things like donating to the poor, which is a good thing to do." *God never said we have to be sinless to get to heaven. We sinned, so God sent Jesus to heaven. No matter what we do, we can't get ourselves to heaven. We need Jesus.*
> 
> It makes me wonder sometimes if Christians have taken "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost" and turned it into "Jesus tells us to to seek and to save the lost." Which always ends up "Seek and annoy the p!ss out of the lost." *Jesus said to go and witness to others. He commanded us to tell the world about Him. We're just obeying God. I'm sorry that you are this upset*.


My answers in bold.


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## Shropshirerosie

ladygodiva1228 said:


> I will say there is one organization, as I truly do not feel they are a church of any God, that just disgusts me. I believe most, if not all of you know who I am talking about. The crap that spills from that place and what they do to people is just unacceptable in my eyes.


Radical Christians in parts of the world are using their belief to justify torture and murder of gay men. Is that where you mean?

Radical Hindus in parts of the world use their belief to justify bombing and murder. Is that where you mean?

Radical Muslims in parts of the world use their belief to justify ear, bombing and murder. Is that where you mean?

Radical Politicians in North Korea use their belief to justify murder, imprisonment, and torture. Is that where you mean?

I do not believe that ANY religion is responsible for the murderous evil ways of our world, I believe that it is the people who take the words of their religion and twist them to justify their own ends are responsible.

Coming from the UK recently I saw the majority of Muslims time and time again reaching out to the rest of the country time and time again saying that their religion promotes peace and respect, and that they utterly condemn the attacks in the name of Islam. Those people, the peaceful and the brave, I respect them the most.


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## MyJumper

DancingArabian said:


> 1. You're assuming we were created off an intelligent design. That's a theory, not a fact. No fossil here.
> 2. I can claim anything coincidental or fortunate or that I simply cant explain to be a miracle. No fossil here.
> 3. I don't believe Jesus in the bible ever existed. Dusty old parchments saying he did is not evidence. I could write out something that's a flat out lie now and that doesn't make it true in the future. Where are his remains? How do we even know those are his remains? Why can we not trace ANYONE back to the apostles or Jesus? No fossil here.
> 4. The universe is not known to have a beginning or an end. Just a theory. Maybe everything destroys itself in a giant explosion, breaking all matter down to molecules and they float around until another Big Bang comes and starts it all back up again. No fossil here.
> 
> The fossils are dated millions of years old. No evidence showing humans existed with dinosaurs. No fossil here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


1.) No one looks at the Mona Lisa and says "What a beautiful painting that just randomly formed after from an explosion in a pain factory.{" We would all assume that someone intelligent painted the Mona Lisa. Creation is much more complex, yet we believe that we just randomly appeared one day out of total chaos. 

2.) A miracle is an act of God. Miracles do not include Magic, Satanic signs, Abnormalities (Freaks of Nature) or Psychosomatic events.
A miracle is something God does, like raising the dead.

3.) What would you accept as evidence that Jesus existed? (Jesus had no family or children, hence why no one traces back to Him.)

4.) In 1917 Einstein's theory of General Relativity proved that the universe has a beginning and an end. Since then other scientist have proven that the Theory of General Relativity is true.

Why are looking for a fossil to prove everything? You aren't going to be able to prove everything using the fossil record.


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## DancingArabian

Edited to delete my post. Too long for mobile mode typing!


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## Saddlebag

Worshiping deities seemed to help ancient peoples deal with what they didn't understand. These people were illiterate and had no idea as to why children died in childbirth, why a crop was bountiful one year, yet not the next. In today's world we know why these things happen and know what to do to help prevent it. Why do we need deities in this day and age? We don't.


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## jaydee

The Muslim religion comes from the same source as the Jewish religion - they were originally the 'same people so share many beliefs, there are Christian denominations that interpret things differently - are they wrong too?
Is your way right simply because it the one you affiliate too?
Similarities between Judaism and Islam | Judaism and Islam – comparing the similarities between Judaism and Islam
If the universe has a beginning and an end what do you think is at the end of the Universe? My metaphoric brick wall?
If the angels that came down to earth to produce the Nephalim were able to have intercourse with human women they must have had flesh and bone bodies - as did the two angels that were raped by men in Genesis


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## New_image

MyJumper said:


> My answers in bold.


MyJumper - I am "upset" because I am a believer. And this type of thing is exactly what my non believing friends loathe about Christians. With good reason. My hubby was not saved when we started dating. He had years and years of Christians "preaching at him", that he was a horrible, sinful person and he needed Jesus. They would make "Are you coming with us, or going to hell?" comments. His response was to back further away from this God who thought he was a horrible person. He is very honest, a gentleman, he would go out of his way to help anyone, he always gets himself screwed over because he is so kind so all this did was make him think "If this God is real and if I am not allowed in heaven, maybe I do not want to be with this God anyways." 

*Because no one needs a savoir if they haven't sinned. You have to show someone that they are a sinner before they can be saved. (It's also the method Jesus used.)*
Then why don't you just let Jesus use this method? It is not up to us, as believers, to point a finger at someone who does not believe in God and say "You sin. You need Jesus." They do not and will not see it this way. My husband loved that I "left him alone" about God while we dated. We could talk about it peacefully, he knew if he wanted to know more about God I would gladly share. He told me that he needed a sign. He was open to it, but he had never seen or felt God. I told him to be careful what he wished for :lol: and just before we were engaged God hit him over the head with a sign he couldn't ignore. THEN I stepped in to take the hand of a man that God brought to his knees. He dove head first into books I suggested, of course the Bible, read through it several times, he couldn't get enough. He is a wonderful man of God and leader of our house today. And this had NOTHING to do with everyone harping at him for being a dirty smelly sinner. It was God. God works on the heart. You cannot make someone receptive to an idea. Especially not by this so commonly used tactic that makes everyone think Christians are nuts. I believe in, (more than that, hate that term, its not like he is Santa, I _know_ God) and I think most Christians are nuts. Why wouldn't you? If I had a dollar for every time a non-believing friend has told me "I'm alright with the concept of your Christ, I hate your Christians."

Does that make sense?


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## FlyGap

Wow, I see a bunch of people who say they dislike a certain religion or non-religion because they proclaim their beliefs, proclaiming their beliefs in a rather hateful way.
So what are you going to do? "Give it back to them", "make em squirm", does that make a person feel better? It would make me sick.

There are a LOT of generalizations in here too. 86% of Americans say they believe in some sort of God, I don't see 86% of Americans shoving their beliefs down others throats. Both sides of the minority groups of "radicals", each hollerin and gripin at each other, are causing the most ruckus. 

No person is a "good" person. I have my faults, and my failings... All I can say is I'm workin on doin better, and I'm not going to drag down someone else if I miss a few steps along the way.

As far as "evolution", I haven't been sold. Adaptation, absolutely.
This video cracks me up. Evolution Vs. God - YouTube


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## jaydee

I don't believe that Jesus did go out and show people they were sinners - they lived in the stifling rules and regulations of that day so already knew what they were and how they were regarded and ostracized by the pious ones around them
What Jesus did was going amongst them, lived amongst them, didn't judge them, treated them respectfully not like they were garbage or rejects. Essentially he loved them regardless and that is how he won them over
PS - I misunderstood the meaning in the beginning and end Universe comment - actually Einstein wanted to believe that it was ageless and eternal - modern day scientists estimate that our solar system is approx.4.5 billion years old but the galaxy it sits in is at least twice as old as that and the oldest star clusters put it as much as 15 billion years old but no more than 20 billion but we still don't have the science to know how enormous it all is or who/what really lies beyond our own immediate galaxy


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## Zexious

My--Did you really just compare the world to a painting?

Fly--I think you can be a good person, while still having short comings.


I'm just caught up on why all this matters? If you whole heartedly believe in this god or that god, that's fantastic. If it brings something extra to your life and makes it more whole, or makes you strive toward being a better person, then great. But not every person needs that. Why try to force it on people?


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## MyJumper

jaydee said:


> PS - I misunderstood the meaning in the beginning and end Universe comment - actually Einstein wanted to believe that it was ageless and eternal - modern day scientists estimate that our solar system is approx.4.5 billion years old but the galaxy it sits in is at least twice as old as that and the oldest star clusters put it as much as 15 billion years old but no more than 20 billion but we still don't have the science to know how enormous it all is or who/what really lies beyond our own immediate galaxy


Yes, Einstein, did want to believe the universe was eternal, which is why he tried to prove it was wrong, as did most of the evolutionist scientists. However, it is proven to be true, despite their attempts.


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## MyJumper

Zexious said:


> My--Did you really just compare the world to a painting?


Yes, yes I did. I compared it to a painting to show how absurd it is to believe that something as remarkably complex as the human body just came from nothing.


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## MyJumper

Deleted


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> If just one person could collate all the evidence that disproves evolution, present it in an academic paper, and submit it to a respectable (read: not run by creationists to get intelligent design into the science classroom) journal, then you can proceed directly to the Nobel Prize that will be waiting for you. Unfortunately, that is yet to happen.


Basically what you're saying is that all creationists are biased and only evolutionists can be trusted, right?


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> Basically what you're saying is that all creationists are biased and only evolutionists can be trusted, right?


No. I am saying that creationists are biased, and only evidence (not some creationist fallacy) should be trusted. I don't trust scientists - I educate myself and look at the evidence to make my own mind up. I don't "believe" in evolution, because that implies that I am not capable of knowing what makes it true. I have examined a lot of the evidence, and it is the only model I have seen that fits all the evidence at hand. Creationism doesn't fit all the evidence, and instead of admitting that, they say that the devil put those pesky fossils there to challenge their belief. So yes, creationists are biased. You can't dismiss evidence just because it doesn't fit your belief. 

Imagine you were on trial for murder, and the prosecution wanted to dismiss evidence because they believe you did it...


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> No. I am saying that creationists are biased, and only evidence (not some creationist fallacy) should be trusted. I don't trust scientists - I educate myself and look at the evidence to make my own mind up. I don't "believe" in evolution, because that implies that I am not capable of knowing what makes it true. I have examined a lot of the evidence, and it is the only model I have seen that fits all the evidence at hand. Creationism doesn't fit all the evidence, and instead of admitting that, they say that the devil put those pesky fossils there to challenge their belief. So yes, creationists are biased. You can't dismiss evidence just because it doesn't fit your belief.
> 
> Imagine you were on trial for murder, and the prosecution wanted to dismiss evidence because they believe you did it...


So...all creationists are biased. That's a pretty bold statement... You do believe in evolution, whether or not you want to admit it. Evolution is a theory and not a fact. Really the only proof you have is adaption, which you insist is evolution, even though I've shown you how it can't be evolution. 
What evidence are you talking about? The fossil record doesn't show that evolution is true.


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## MyJumper

New_image said:


> MyJumper -
> Then why don't you just let Jesus use this method? It is not up to us, as believers, to point a finger at someone who does not believe in God and say "You sin. You need Jesus." "I'm alright with the concept of your Christ, I hate your Christians."


Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

Jesus commanded us to witness to the world. That's really the only reason were on earth, to glorify God and do His will. We can witness with love, but we are commanded to witness. Yes, God can use other methods to save unbelievers, but often He uses us to witness.
I'm sorry that you meet some bad christians. Not every one who claims to be a christian really is a christian.


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## MyFillyAspen

I didn't and won't take the test after having read some of the replies. I am not a believer of Christianity (I went to numerous private Christian schools, and public school also throughout my schooling years) nor a believer of any religion whatsoever. It's the whole egg before the chicken kind of thing to me. If I were to believe anything (which I don't) I'd probably be more inclined to believe we humans originiated from Apes etc... and where did they originate you ask? I don't know, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I believe in gravity - if there is a guy in the sky, well... *fall...dead*. I am not a believer, you are and that's fine, but please don't expect everyone else to be - we have a right, as much as you, to have our own understandings and beliefs.

Am I a good person? Well yes I think I am - I have been given a lot of opportunitys and had a lot of comments about my work ethic and manners also, I always go out my own way to help people (unless I know it would be in vain) and get more out of helping or giving to friends and family etc than buying things for myself. I think I am a good person.

Reference: MeAndNoBelief, 3: 3-5.


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## Missy May

Chiilaa said:


> No. I am saying that creationists are biased, and only evidence (not some creationist fallacy) should be trusted. I don't trust scientists - I educate myself and look at the evidence to make my own mind up. I don't "believe" in evolution, because that implies that I am not capable of knowing what makes it true. I have examined a lot of the evidence, and it is the only model I have seen that fits all the evidence at hand. Creationism doesn't fit all the evidence, and instead of admitting that, they say that the devil put those pesky fossils there to challenge their belief. So yes, creationists are biased. You can't dismiss evidence just because it doesn't fit your belief.
> 
> Imagine you were on trial for murder, and the prosecution wanted to dismiss evidence because they believe you did it...


Yet, the models for the theory of evolution had some serious flaws, through the ages, and revised as new tech provided new evidence. Um, okay. I believe that evolution "occurred". - I have always had some serious problems with "current models". I was once an atheist, and I have always had a nasty habit of questioning. When current day "models" are questioned - you cannot tell me you have never, ever witnessed the "questioner" dismissed as "not understanding" the "holy word" and/or their inquiries even being "threatened" with being confused with the truly ignorant "religious" types - outright or by "body language" of the men of the science cloth. If not, you haven't been around much. 

The fact is, creationist have asked some very relevant questions. The questions were entirely dismissed on the basis they were asked by a religious "person" or "group". That is not science. A question is a question, and math is math. 

Related is the area of "magic". High and mighty "scientist" of the past (and today is tomorrows past, too) don't believe in hooey like "magic". YET, they have had many interesting words over the years, such as "instinct". What is that, exactly? Pre-programed thinking? Did they, until very, very, very recently....have any "proof" of the mechanisms of "instinct"? It is a word used SO loosely that it turns out a lot of things that were assigned as "instinct", really aren't. Uh oh, this means some things are "taught". Uh oh. But, that which is not taught is behavior that "evolved".? Really, where was the fossil evidence of that? And, where was any tangible evidence all those hundreds of years during which "respected science" used the word "instinct". Honestly, it is pathetic. 

And the word "life"? Not to be confused with "magic", no, no. It has yet to even be "described" scientifically. But, by golly it "evolved". Really? It can't be "seen", it cannot be "measured", there isn't even a modicum of "explanation" - just accept that it "is", b/c that is what scientific methods dictate? Which ones? 

Oh, wait, wait you ignorant religious people. Epigenetics has arrived. We didn't know it was there, we didn't look for it b/c we "believed" in our models, but it just getting harder and harder to deny. Lets revise those models - AGAIN. Oh, and let us please, please, please, BURY the fact that many of the questions "creationists" (and mathematicians, but what do they know, right?) asked and our own religious "scientific" text taught us to resist...now have the beginnings of a few answers. I have a bible, it says "revised" on its cover. I do not know the text or its history well - to say the least. But, apparently, it has been "revised". 

I do not see where religion excludes the theory of evolution, at all. I do see some people that accept the theory of evolution as_ their_ religion - exclude other religions. To have a "religion" and not know it..wow, I call that ignorant.


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> So...all creationists are biased. That's a pretty bold statement... You do believe in evolution, whether or not you want to admit it. Evolution is a theory and not a fact. Really the only proof you have is adaption, which you insist is evolution, even though I've shown you how it can't be evolution.
> What evidence are you talking about? The fossil record doesn't show that evolution is true.


I have read a huge amount of creationist's arguments against evolution. The problem? They are fitting the evidence to their conclusion. They take all the evidence that they think will fit their argument, then say the rest of it is wrong or not applicable. Think of dating - a "new earth" creationist cannot allow rocks to be dated at more than 10 000 years old, so instead of proving that the rocks are that old, they try to dismiss the dating techniques that prove the rocks are older. Can't you see how that might be a bit biased?

Here, I did some googling for you. Because it is really hard to educate yourself on something when you only read one side (answers in genesis is not a scientific source, but I HAVE read most of the page they have there). Instead, go to an independent source. I found a good compilation of evolution information on Berkeley's website: What is the evidence for evolution?


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## Chiilaa

Missy May said:


> Yet, the models for the theory of evolution had some serious flaws, through the ages, and revised as new tech provided new evidence. Um, okay. I believe that evolution "occurred". - I have always had some serious problems with "current models". I was once an atheist, and I have always had a nasty habit of questioning. When current day "models" are questioned - you cannot tell me you have never, ever witnessed the "questioner" dismissed as "not understanding" the "holy word" and/or their inquiries even being "threatened" with being confused with the truly ignorant "religious" types - outright or by "body language" of the men of the science cloth. If not, you haven't been around much.
> 
> The fact is, creationist have asked some very relevant questions. The questions were entirely dismissed on the basis they were asked by a religious "person" or "group". That is not science. A question is a question, and math is math.
> 
> Related is the area of "magic". High and mighty "scientist" of the past (and today is tomorrows past, too) don't believe in hooey like "magic". YET, they have had many interesting words over the years, such as "instinct". What is that, exactly? Pre-programed thinking? Did they, until very, very, very recently....have any "proof" of the mechanisms of "instinct"? It is a word used SO loosely that it turns out a lot of things that were assigned as "instinct", really aren't. Uh oh, this means some things are "taught". Uh oh. But, that which is not taught is behavior that "evolved".? Really, where was the fossil evidence of that? And, where was any tangible evidence all those hundreds of years during which "respected science" used the word "instinct". Honestly, it is pathetic.
> 
> And the word "life"? Not to be confused with "magic", no, no. It has yet to even be "described" scientifically. But, by golly it "evolved". Really? It can't be "seen", it cannot be "measured", there isn't even a modicum of "explanation" - just accept that it "is", b/c that is what scientific methods dictate? Which ones?
> 
> Oh, wait, wait you ignorant religious people. Epigenetics has arrived. We didn't know it was there, we didn't look for it b/c we "believed" in our models, but it just getting harder and harder to deny. Lets revise those models - AGAIN. Oh, and let us please, please, please, BURY the fact that many of the questions "creationists" (and mathematicians, but what do they know, right?) asked and our own religious "scientific" text taught us to resist...now have the beginnings of a few answers. I have a bible, it says "revised" on its cover. I do not know the text or its history well - to say the least. But, apparently, it has been "revised".
> 
> I do not see where religion excludes the theory of evolution, at all. I do see some people that accept the theory of evolution as_ their_ religion - exclude other religions. To have a "religion" and not know it..wow, I call that ignorant.


What you are describing, where the model of evolution changes based on new evidence? That is just good science. That is the whole point of science. You take what evidence you have, and find a theory that fits ALL the evidence. New evidence comes along? Time to test if it proves or disproves our viewpoint. It doesn't fit? Well then we have to change our stance.

What bothers me about this is that there is no controversy. Outside of a few creationist "scientists", no one else has seen any reason to doubt evolutionary theory. It is solid science that has not yet been disproved, so it stands.


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> Evolution is a theory and not a fact.


I wanted to come back to this. There is a huge difference between the standard person's definition of "theory" and the scientific definition.

In science, a theory is as good as fact. It is a explanation for an occurrence, with a large amount of supporting evidence, and no evidence against it. That is the scientific definition of the word "theory". It is not a hunch, not a stray thought, it is solid and supportable.


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## Missy May

Chiilaa said:


> In science, a theory is as good as fact.


 I don't agree, at all. It is exactly what the word implies, a "possible explanation". An "accepted theory" generally requires some sort of supporting data - but it does not mean it is accepted as "fact". There are many different "theories" about many different things in any given area of "science". WHen something comes along that suggest a given theory does not hold, it is no longer "accepted", but it was never "fact". 

I understand "real" science just fine, thank you Chiil. I also understand what happens when "real science" meets up with "real people", in and out of the field. People ARE a parameter in the field of science as it is studied by people. For example, I am quite sure people always breathed air, _even_ before its composition was fully identified.


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## Chiilaa

Missy May said:


> I don't agree, at all. It is exactly what the word implies, a "possible explanation". An "accepted theory" generally requires some sort of supporting data - but it does not mean it is accepted as "fact". There are many different "theories" about many different things in any given area of "science". WHen something comes along that suggest a given theory does not hold, it is no longer "accepted", but it was never "fact".


No, a "possible explanation" is a hypothesis. The following is the definition given by the United States National Academy of Sciences:



> The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence. Many scientific theories are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics)...One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed.


Or what about this one? From the American Association for the Advancement of Science.



> A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.


Another example I like to remind people of is that gravity is "only" a theory. Yet you don't hear anyone disparaging that one.


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> Another example I like to remind people of is that gravity is "only" a theory. Yet you don't hear anyone disparaging that one.


Gravity is a law, not a theory.


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> What bothers me about this is that there is no controversy. Outside of a few creationist "scientists", no one else has seen any reason to doubt evolutionary theory. It is solid science that has not yet been disproved, so it stands.


Actually there is more then just a few creationist scientists that doubt the theory of evolution. A lot of the evidence for evolution is fake. In some school textbooks they continue to use outdated data and evidence that has been shown to be wrong. Some evolutionist hide evidence that doesn't fit their theory. Evolution has serious flaws, but because it is widely accepted, most people don't even question it.

Creationist are scientists. Their belief system does not immediately make them biased, unintelligent or fake scientist. You seem to be convinced that anyone who doubts evolution is stupid.


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> Gravity is a law, not a theory.


No, this is wrong.

The rate at which gravity affects objects is a law. How gravity works is a theory.


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> Actually there is more then just a few creationist scientists that doubt the theory of evolution. A lot of the evidence for evolution is fake. In some school textbooks they continue to use outdated data and evidence that has been shown to be wrong. Some evolutionist hide evidence that doesn't fit their theory. Evolution has serious flaws, but because it is widely accepted, most people don't even question it.
> 
> Creationist are scientists. Their belief system does not immediately make them biased, unintelligent or fake scientist. You seem to be convinced that anyone who doubts evolution is stupid.


Not stupid. Just unwilling or unable to examine the evidence themselves with an open mind that doesn't have a previous bias. 

The fact that the only "scientists" that discount evolution all happen to be creationists is a huge glaring factor in why they discount it. To dismiss this is to ignore that maybe they are trying to prove evolution wrong for the wrong reason - they are scared that evolution discounts existence of a god, and so by smearing evolution, they can prop their god back up. Evolution alone does not discount god.

Missy May, I don't count you as one of these that "discount" evolution - you seem to feel that the evidence doesn't fit the current model, but you don't seem to be discounting evolution as a whole. That is a scientific process. 

MyJumper - show me the evidence that is falsified. Show me what part of evolution is wrong - using fact based evidence.


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## MyJumper

To quote the late Harvard paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould (He's an evolutionist)

"The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism: 1.) Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; Morphological change is usually limited and directionless. 2.) Sudden Appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed'."

An evolutionist admitting that the fossil record shows the opposite of evolution.
I've already explained how adaption is different from evolution, and how evolution can't work.

Do you have any other proof for evolution?


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> Not stupid. Just unwilling or unable to examine the evidence themselves with an open mind that doesn't have a previous bias.
> *Don't you have a previous bias? You seem convinced that evolution is right and anyone who disagrees is biased. Just because people don't agree with your worldview doesn't mean their biased or close-minded. Everyone has a belief system even evolutionists.
> *
> The fact that the only "scientists" that discount evolution all happen to be creationists is a huge glaring factor in why they discount it. To dismiss this is to ignore that maybe they are trying to prove evolution wrong for the wrong reason - they are scared that evolution discounts existence of a god, and so by smearing evolution, they can prop their god back up. Evolution alone does not discount god. *That's is kind of redundant. evolutionist are obviously going to support their belief. The only scientist that would discount evolution would be creationist.*
> 
> Missy May, I don't count you as one of these that "discount" evolution - you seem to feel that the evidence doesn't fit the current model, but you don't seem to be discounting evolution as a whole. That is a scientific process.
> 
> MyJumper - show me the evidence that is falsified. Show me what part of evolution is wrong - using fact based evidence.


My answer in bold


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> I've already explained how adaption is different from evolution, and how evolution can't work.


I posted a link to a credible source for basic evolution education. Also, I have repeated a few times that evolution and adaptation are the same thing. Evolution is the result, adaptation is the mechanism.


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## jaydee

MyJumper said:


> To quote the late Harvard paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould (He's an evolutionist)
> 
> "The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism: 1.) Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear; Morphological change is usually limited and directionless. 2.) Sudden Appearance. In any local area, a species does not arise gradually by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and 'fully formed'."
> 
> An evolutionist admitting that the fossil record shows the opposite of evolution.
> I've already explained how adaption is different from evolution, and how evolution can't work.
> 
> Do you have any other proof for evolution?


Some things do disappear because they simply cease to exist for some reason but other things simply change but it doesn't happen overnight or even in a thousand years - it can take millions of years for that to happen
Evolution occurs slowly when a species has to adapt to suit the needs - or become extinct or more quickly when the change is caused by DNA mutation
Given the length of time that animal life has been on the earth, the speed at which the bones decay and decompose unless conditions are ideal for preservation and the many changes the earth has been through in that time its hardly surprising that there are pieces of the jigsaw missing and yet for some species there is quite a good chain of evidence
As science progresses evolution becomes more understandable - and many of the 'dinosaurs' that were believed to have been reptiles are known to be closer related to birds, new research using new technology is giving new answers all the time
Human ancestor lived with dinosaurs - Times Of India


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## ladygodiva1228

Shropshirerosie said:


> Radical Christians in parts of the world are using their belief to justify torture and murder of gay men. Is that where you mean?
> 
> Radical Hindus in parts of the world use their belief to justify bombing and murder. Is that where you mean?
> 
> Radical Muslims in parts of the world use their belief to justify ear, bombing and murder. Is that where you mean?
> 
> Radical Politicians in North Korea use their belief to justify murder, imprisonment, and torture. Is that where you mean?
> 
> I do not believe that ANY religion is responsible for the murderous evil ways of our world, I believe that it is the people who take the words of their religion and twist them to justify their own ends are responsible.
> 
> Coming from the UK recently I saw the majority of Muslims time and time again reaching out to the rest of the country time and time again saying that their religion promotes peace and respect, and that they utterly condemn the attacks in the name of Islam. Those people, the peaceful and the brave, I respect them the most.


 
I was referring to The Westborough Baptist Church. Look up their website and tell me what you think of them.


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## Zexious

^Oh, them... /sigh.


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## Missy May

Chiilaa said:


> No, a "possible explanation" is a hypothesis. The following is the definition given by the United States National Academy of Sciences:
> 
> 
> 
> Or what about this one? From the American Association for the Advancement of Science.
> 
> 
> 
> Another example I like to remind people of is that gravity is "only" a theory. Yet you don't hear anyone disparaging that one.


Oh, oh, oh...or what about this one: epigenetics. Was genetic "theory" NOT "accepted" when they pumped millions into the genome project? Did they not have reams, and reams, of _undeniable_ evidence and reproducible data? Not that the results are the project are of no value, but they are not of the "value" that _then _accepted "fact" would have predicted. 

Apparently, you seem to think that I "disparage" a theory, or components of a theory, on the basis I question its overall "accuracy" - if I can use that word w/o you attacking semantics. And, actually, there are a number of scientist that have just recently "questioned" the theories involving gravity and continue to research it. Be they right or be they _completely_ wrong in their endeavors...they are NOT "disparaging" the theory of anything. They are applying real science and are not letting "accepted theories" blind them along the way. 

You seemed to skip right over my earlier point about the fact that school children are taught there are no differences between the peoples of the earth, yet they are at a minimum introduced to the theory of evolution, which in and of itself I have no problem with. But, the "theory" doesn't apply to that which one can observe in the human species? B/c they were what? Divinely created? 

IF you cannot understand or acknowledge the "human factor" is inextricably present where humans are performing "research" and exploring "science" in search of the "truth" - not to mention how the general populace misinterprets, or "cherry picks" and/or accepts anything published as "scientific findings" as "fact", then I do not think there is any point in continuing the conversation.


----------



## Chiilaa

I guess you missed the reply directed at you Missy.



> Missy May, I don't count you as one of these that "discount" evolution - you seem to feel that the evidence doesn't fit the current model, but you don't seem to be discounting evolution as a whole. That is a scientific process.


If the evidence doesn't fit, a scientist adjusts the theory, not the evidence. I was implying that you seem to feel the same way.

Creationists don't adjust their theory. They are certain that "God did it!" and so they try to manipulate and select evidence that only supports their theory (and they do so poorly at it!). That's not science.


----------



## Missy May

Chiilaa said:


> I guess you missed the reply directed at you Missy.
> 
> 
> 
> If the evidence doesn't fit, a scientist adjusts the theory, not the evidence. I was implying that you seem to feel the same way.
> 
> Creationists don't adjust their theory. They are certain that "God did it!" and so they try to manipulate and select evidence that only supports their theory (and they do so poorly at it!). That's not science.


Yes, I did miss that. You must have missed where I stated I accept evolution occurred, but have always had problems with the model(s). 

I have an inkling of how the "scientific world" goes about their business, and there are many instances with which I am not impressed. There is a vast difference between limiting your search for evidence to only that which "fits", and taking all evidence into account. This would include...don't believe your lying eyes on the basis there is no "scientific evidence" to substantiate the obvious. Hence, if no one funded the effort that would be required to study "x", it cannot be proven so let us all ignore it? Again, the human factor determines how "science" is practiced and applied...and how, exactly, that "goes" can be down right disturbing not to mention adversely affect people and fellow creatures. So whatever their collective beef is with people having "faith" ...they need to get over their egos, which are often undeserved.

I am not familiar with the particulars of what creationist believe. But, it is obvious that it is a "religion". I see no point in arguing with anyone's religion, especially concerning the origins of life. My individual religion doesn't exclude evolution, no. In fact, IMO, it embraces it far better than "science" does (as it currently is and has been "practiced"). Evidence? Why, sure...I do not now, nor have I _ever_ believed that opposing thumbs and a voice box were somehow magically accompanied by the ability to experience all sorts of "conscious experiences" that fellow creatures just never had or would develop. But, hey, it is my religion and I am free to believe it.


----------



## AlexS

Back to the OT, I am a bad person - good to know I will burn in hell for all eternity while I raise the teenage boys that others don't want. You know what, I will wait and see how God judges me. 

*RESULT:
This test showed you how you stand up when judged by *_*just  five*_* of God's Ten Commandments. So, if God judges you  by that standard would you be innocent or guilty of breaking His Commandments?*


----------



## Chiilaa

AlexS said:


> Back to the OT, I am a bad person - good to know I will burn in hell for all eternity while I raise the teenage boys that others don't want. You know what, I will wait and see how God judges me.
> 
> *RESULT:
> This test showed you how you stand up when judged by *_*just five*_* of God's Ten Commandments. So, if God judges you  by that standard would you be innocent or guilty of breaking His Commandments?*


The way I figure, Alex, if people like you are not let in, maybe it won't be such a good place after all.


----------



## Zexious

I couldn't agree more with the last two posts.

There is more to being a "good" person than just attending a place of worship x amount of times a week.
In fact, I'm pretty certain that has nothing to do with it at all..


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## New_image

My point _exactly_. The above three comments are to a t the reaction that I said this would have. And with good reason. I do not blame you folks one bit for drawing this conclusion! 

For what its worth, just know that the test & those defending it are not at all a good representation of this religion. Although, its pretty much the only example you will see given by many mislead, confused, self righteous, judgmental, hypocritical Christians.


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## BaileyJo

I'm late to the thread and admit that I didn't read all 300 posts but I have a question for the OP, if she is still here.

I would like to know who is influencing/teaching you and your beliefs? Maybe you stated that? Is it a church or your family? You look young and most young people are influenced by someone or something.


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## ErinaStars

BaileyJo said:


> I'm late to the thread and admit that I didn't read all 300 posts but I have a question for the OP, if she is still here.
> 
> I would like to know who is influencing/teaching you and your beliefs? Maybe you stated that? Is it a church or your family? You look young and most young people are influenced by someone or something.


@BaileyJo 


I study Gods word, spend time with him in prayer, I learn from what my Lord and Savior teaches me through the Bible, I don't rely on my answers from my friends, or even my family, I rely on Gods Holy and Infallible word(the Bible):

_All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:16 _

I agree with you Bailey, most young people (and older as well but mostly the younger generation) are influenced by someone or something, they follow the crowd and want to be like everyone else...I was on that same path. But long story short: I Repented, Turned from my sins, and Followed Jesus Christ. Looking back now I see what a dangerous path I was on. In the lives of many of my friends I have seen that the world's way brings misery and trouble. 
I know how hard it is to be different, and to live fully for Jesus. But He is with me, I trust in the Lord for strength, and He has Always been there for me.

Most people take the years of their youth(I have seen happen countless times) and use them for fun, self, and things that don't last. 
Instead of finding the "fun" they were hoping for, they ended up in unhappiness and many more problems... 
Those years were wasted because of their wrong decisions. 

But a _few_ people take these years and give them to God. They know that the only things that really matter are the things that last for eternity. 

God wants to use those _few_ to be a Bright Light for Him:
_"For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward Him(2 Chronicles 16:9)._

In Christ,
~Ivy~


----------



## BaileyJo

ErinaStars said:


> @BaileyJo
> 
> 
> I study Gods word, spend time with him in prayer, I learn from what my Lord and Savior teaches me through the Bible, I don't rely on my answers from my friends, or even my family, I rely on Gods Holy and Infallible word(the Bible):
> 
> _All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:_
> _2 Timothy 3:16 _
> 
> I agree with you Bailey, most young people (and older as well but mostly the younger generation) are influenced by someone or something, they follow the crowd and want to be like everyone else...I was on that same path. But long story short: I Repented, Turned from my sins, and Followed Jesus Christ. Looking back now I see what a dangerous path I was on. In the lives of many of my friends I have seen that the world's way brings misery and trouble.
> I know how hard it is to be different, and to live fully for Jesus. But He is with me, I trust in the Lord for strength, and He has Always been there for me.
> 
> Most people take the years of their youth(I have seen happen countless times) and use them for fun, self, and things that don't last.
> Instead of finding the "fun" they were hoping for, they ended up in unhappiness and many more problems...
> Those years were wasted because of their wrong decisions.
> 
> But a _few_ people take these years and give them to God. They know that the only things that really matter are the things that last for eternity.
> 
> God wants to use those _few_ to be a Bright Light for Him:
> _"For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward Him(2 Chronicles 16:9)._
> 
> In Christ,
> ~Ivy~


Ivy, I read your answer and since there is no influence I can't help but think that you are afraid of something - and it's not going to hell. It's something in this life that's driving you to be afraid of your own decisions. And it seems to be revolving around your previous choices/misery. Many people are very extreme when something dramatic happens and they need change in their life. What was causing your life to be so miserable?


----------



## jaydee

The Bible is inspiring in many parts but it was written by men over a long period of time living very different lives and its easy to see how that influenced them and why there are contradictions in it - So totally the word of God? - well I'm afraid I'm not so sure
I think there are better ways to 'find' God than in the Bible - look around for the good in people, the love, the kindness, the true generosity.


----------



## AlexS

Chiilaa said:


> The way I figure, Alex, if people like you are not let in, maybe it won't be such a good place after all.


Thank you.


----------



## ErinaStars

BaileyJo said:


> Ivy, I read your answer and since there is no influence I can't help but think that you are afraid of something - and it's not going to hell. It's something in this life that's driving you to be afraid of your own decisions. And it seems to be revolving around your previous choices/misery. Many people are very extreme when something dramatic happens and they need change in their life. What was causing your life to be so miserable?


@BaileyJo
When I accepted Jesus Christ into my heart, I cannot express my unspeakable joy! Even now, when I go and talk to my Lord when I pray, I cannot describe to you my unspeakable joy, even in person I can't, its something words cannot express! 

I am afraid of nothing past, or present, and I can tell you this with full honesty Bailey, my life is not miserable, and when I _was _miserable it was when I was without Christ in my life. 

_Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord._

You asked me:


> What was causing your life to be so miserable?


What was making my life miserable?: my sin was, life without Christ was unfulfilled, God helped me see that, His Holy Spirit convicted me, and the realization that God would would still forgive me of telling lies, stealing things (no matter if it was little things, like candy or a pen, whatever, it was still stealing), hating, lust, all those sins that I was guilty of! Yet, He would still forgive me. 

_Lamentations 3:22-24

22 It is of the Lord's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.

23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

24 The Lord is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him._
~Ivy~


----------



## ErinaStars

jaydee said:


> The Bible is inspiring in many parts but it was written by men over a long period of time living very different lives and its easy to see how that influenced them and why there are contradictions in it - So totally the word of God? - well I'm afraid I'm not so sure
> I think there are better ways to 'find' God than in the Bible - look around for the good in people, the love, the kindness, the true generosity.


I've heard lots of people ask "Wait, didn't men write the Bible?" Absolutely. When you write a letter, do you write the letter, or does the pen? Obviously you do. The pen is merely the instrument you use. God used men as instruments to write His "letter" to humanity. They ranged from kings to common fishermen, but the 66 books of the Bible were all given by inspiration of God. Proof that this Book is supernatural can been seen with a quick study of its prophecies Jaydee. =)
~Ivy~


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## BaileyJo

You're really only giving surface level programmed answers. You need to dig deeper. I don't really see the relationship with God that you are espousing. I don't see it in your postings. I don't see a depth to your relationship. Just Bible quoting and cardboard answers. Don't get me wrong, I think that's great that you have found something that makes you happy and complete. But in digging deeper, you will discover more of yourself and what is pushing you to do this. 

I still believe that you are either looking for self-acceptance or self-affirmation. Maybe self-love... not sure. Like you have been rejected in some way and this is your self love. Women join convents all the time because they feel they are called but they don't get on the Horse Forum and shout to the world that all need to be like them. They are comfortable in knowing that God has called them - a particular person and they grow from there. There's a missing link to this that you are not explaining. We are not getting the whole story. I would suggest that you dig deeper too on why it is so important for you to save all of us. What satisfaction are you getting out of this?


----------



## jaydee

I'm not sure why you feel the need to quote scriptures to justify being a good person - you should be a good person because you feel in your heart that its the right thing to do and not out of fear of divine punishment. 
I don't obey the 'shalt not kill' commandement or law of the land because I fear being punished for it - but because its not in my nature to want to take someone's life
Nostradamus made prophecies and he was involved in the occult
The Bible was written thousands of years ago, times have changed, the world has gone through some terribly troubled times when maybe some advice from God through a man would have helped but unless you're a Mormon the Prophets seem to be a thing of the past


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## Zexious

Many times, people turn to religion and God because they are afraid.


----------



## FlyGap

I wouldn't say that's the majority of the case Z.

I have faith, and my prayers DO help me through the rough times, but I GIVE THANKS in 99.99999% of my prayers.

If life is nothing but chance do I just thank myself for being "lucky" enough to have been born here? No, I give thanks to the Lord, and choose to help others who haven't been as fortunate.

Does that require faith, no. But FOR ME and most others on the planet a simple meal, a roof however humble, good health, and the strength to do his will is more than enough to pray about.


----------



## Saddlebag

I am a somewhat private person. A dear friend tells her church if I'm not feeling well so they can all pray for me. I asked her not to do this but she truly believes all their prayers helped me to get better. She absolutely disregards those who've passed away. Their prayers did nothing. I will no longer share with her.


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## BaileyJo

Zexious said:


> Many times, people turn to religion and God because they are afraid.


I totally agree with you. There is something this girl is not telling us. If you are cruising along life and suddenly take a dive into being extremely overly zealous about the Bible, there's something more to the story. She's not elaborating though. Hard for her to break through her cardboard responses. Honestly, I feel kind of bad for her. Hope she comes back.


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## BaileyJo

This is flipping scary. This crap really exists....totally mindblowing. My jaw dropped on a couple titles of the threads.

The Landover Baptist Church Forum


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## TessaMay

BaileyJo said:


> This is flipping scary. This crap really exists....totally mindblowing. My jaw dropped on a couple titles of the threads.
> 
> The Landover Baptist Church Forum


 
That's actually a fake forum started by someone off of the SomethingAwful Forum lol


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## BaileyJo

Seriously! Oh thank God! I was floored!


----------



## TessaMay

I was for a second too before my boyfriend told me I'd been trolled (not intentionally on your part) :wink:


----------



## jaydee

I see nothing wrong in thanking God or simply getting strength from prayer when things are really difficult but if you feel so sinful that its making you feel worthless and so unhappy all the time that your only way out of it all is in prayer and Bible Study then that does worry me
Ivy - I hope you belong to a good caring 'credible' Church where you have people to share things with - we're human beings - we need other human beings to help us through bad times as well as needing God
I can remember one very good Church leader telling me I was a wonderful person and could get through my problems - way better than telling me I was a miserable sinner and making me go over every single little transgression in my life.


----------



## MyJumper

BaileyJo said:


> I totally agree with you. There is something this girl is not telling us. If you are cruising along life and suddenly take a dive into being extremely overly zealous about the Bible, there's something more to the story. She's not elaborating though. Hard for her to break through her cardboard responses. Honestly, I feel kind of bad for her. Hope she comes back.


I don't think Ivy's scared of anything. I don't understand why you can't accept her answer.
She loves Jesus and is obeying Him. Jesus commands us to witness to others, that's what she's trying to do and that's what I'm trying to do. I'm not 'emotionally scarred' or anything like that.


----------



## BaileyJo

MyJumper said:


> I don't think Ivy's scared of anything. I don't understand why you can't accept her answer.
> She loves Jesus and is obeying Him. Jesus commands us to witness to others, that's what she's trying to do and that's what I'm trying to do. I'm not 'emotionally scarred' or anything like that.


Because IME, something happens to a person to make them take on such a drastic change. Like I said, I'm all for her being happy and finding happiness but something caused it. 

Are you Ivy? You talk like the first person.


----------



## MyJumper

BaileyJo said:


> Are you Ivy? You talk like the first person.


No, ha ha.:lol: I switched to first person when I was talking about myself. I believe in*witnessing, like Ivy.


----------



## BaileyJo

MyJumper said:


> No, ha ha.:lol: I switched to first person when I was talking about myself. I believe in*witnessing, like Ivy.


Oh. So you can't really speak for her. While I appreciate your experiences, every person's journey is different. You're not like her.


----------



## ErinaStars

BaileyJo said:


> Oh. So you can't really speak for her. While I appreciate your experiences, every person's journey is different. You're not like her.


I appreciate MyJumper speaking, that is *exactly* the point I was trying to make(Thanks MyJumper!). 
And like MyJumper I don't understand why you can't accept my answer...

I answered you honestly Bailey, sorry if you see me responses as


> cardboard


 I did my best to explain to you what you asked me...

In Christ,
~Ivy~


----------



## ErinaStars

jaydee said:


> I see nothing wrong in thanking God or simply getting strength from prayer when things are really difficult but if you feel so sinful that its making you feel worthless and so unhappy all the time that your only way out of it all is in prayer and Bible Study then that does worry me
> Ivy - I hope you belong to a good caring 'credible' Church where you have people to share things with - we're human beings - we need other human beings to help us through bad times as well as needing God
> I can remember one very good Church leader telling me I was a wonderful person and could get through my problems - way better than telling me I was a miserable sinner and making me go over every single little transgression in my life.


You missed my point entirely jaydee.


----------



## MyJumper

BaileyJo said:


> Oh. So you can't really speak for her. While I appreciate your experiences, every person's journey is different. You're not like her.


I agree, I can't speak for her. I'm just trying to understand why you're so certain that Ivy has some traumatic back story.


----------



## BaileyJo

ErinaStars said:


> I appreciate MyJumper speaking, that is *exactly* the point I was trying to make(Thanks MyJumper!).
> And like MyJumper I don't understand why you can't accept my answer...
> 
> I answered you honestly Bailey, sorry if you see me responses as I did my best to explain to you what you asked me...
> 
> In Christ,
> ~Ivy~


I'll tell you why I don't buy that nothing happened. Your behavior is very odd. Odd enough that you come on a public forum telling everyone to take this quiz and be saved. *It's not normal behavior.* MyJumper didn't do that but you did. That's why I say she's not the same as you. Something big pushed you to do it even though you don't want to dig down and find it. 

I just don't buy your burning relationship. Your responses have no depth. They are standard cut responses like "God is great!" or "The Bible proclaims it!" "He's got me through so much!" And then you quote Bible verses. It's like a school girl crush. There's nothing beneath the surface of it. It's the same as a person saying...."Oh he's so cute!" Or, "I like him because he has a nice car." There's no complexity to it. 

I'm all for people having and developing a spiritual relationship with their God. But you're not there yet. When you mature in your spirituality, you will see that God is more than just the cuteness and Bible quotes. You will begin to have your own thoughts and own ideas. You will discover that God is so much more than a book and so much more than just a quiz on the internet. And you will let other people have their *own* relationship with God too. Evenutally you will even be comfortable with some not having one.


----------



## jaydee

The 'witnessing' in the Bible was to a plea made to those who had been made aware of Christ and his message to spread it to a world that had no knowledge of his existence.
There can't be many people now who don't know that Christianity exists and from my experience of the people who go around 'Witnessing' are preaching to the converted and just trying to move them from their own church/faith to the 'witnesses ' one.
I also think there's a danger that some Christians will fall into the same trap as the Scribes and Pharisees and end up worshiping the rules and laws and forget about the real word of Christ which was about loving and caring for our fellow men (and women!) which is why He focused so much on stories like the Good Samaritan and the Prodigal Son.
There's far more to being a Christian than spouting scriptures - you want to please God then go out and help make someone's life feel better or easier. There are lots of organization that you can work with to do that.


----------



## ErinaStars

BaileyJo said:


> I'll tell you why I don't buy that nothing happened. Your behavior is very odd. Odd enough that you come on a public forum telling everyone to take this quiz and be saved. *It's not normal behavior.* MyJumper didn't do that but you did. That's why I say she's not the same as you. Something big pushed you to do it even though you don't want to dig down and find it.
> 
> I just don't buy your burning relationship. Your responses have no depth. They are standard cut responses like "God is great!" or "The Bible proclaims it!" "He's got me through so much!" And then you quote Bible verses. It's like a school girl crush. There's nothing beneath the surface of it. It's the same as a person saying...."Oh he's so cute!" Or, "I like him because he has a nice car." There's no complexity to it.
> 
> I'm all for people having and developing a spiritual relationship with their God. But you're not there yet. When you mature in your spirituality, you will see that God is more than just the cuteness and Bible quotes. You will begin to have your own thoughts and own ideas. You will discover that God is so much more than a book and so much more than just a quiz on the internet. And you will let other people have their *own* relationship with God too. Evenutally you will even be comfortable with some not having one.





> I just don't buy your burning relationship. Your responses have no depth. They are standard cut responses like "God is great!" or "The Bible proclaims it!" "He's got me through so much!" And then you quote Bible verses. It's like a school girl crush. There's nothing beneath the surface of it. It's the same as a person saying...."Oh he's so cute!" Or, "I like him because he has a nice car." There's no complexity to it.


BaileyJo, let me tell you now, I am not an author(you can ask anyone I know and they'll tell you the same...:wink, I don't know what you require of me to write. I'm not writing fiction for you, with words that make you feel like you are actually there, that create a strong image/feeling,


> There's no complexity to it.


 I don't have that gift, this is not Fiction or anything.
If my method of writing does not suit you, that's absolutely fine! My writing does not have to.=) But you can't make the call and Judge the motive of my heart, only *God* can Bailey, not _you_.....



> You will begin to have your own thoughts and own ideas. You will discover that God is so much more than a book and so much more than just a quiz on the internet. And you will let other people have their *own* relationship with God too. Evenutally you will even be comfortable with some not having one.


Bailey....I know that God is so much more than a quiz(He is above anything you can think or imagine!), I know that, so you can't assume I don't.
*Evenutally you will even be comfortable with some not having one.*​No True Christian can be comfortable with this, because then they (true Christians) wouldn't be worried about people going to hell because they wouldn't take the time to witness and share the gospel! True Christians WILL be concerned for the welfare of others spiritually! They will go out and share the wonderful news with unbelievers that Jesus came on earth to die for their sins! I don't want people to go to Hell, and I'm sure you don't either.... ​ 
Lastly Bailey, as I've read over your post, it is evident in what you say that you believe something different then I do.​You can't tell me I don't have a (as you put it burning relationship with God, it like me saying: 
"Hey Bailey, you don't eat sugar!" and you reply, 
"Of course I do Ivy, what made you think I don't?" And I say 
"I can tell by the way you speak that you don't. Trust me I would KNOW. You don't eat sugar...."
Get my point?



> Something big pushed you to do it even though you don't want to dig down and find it.


I don't know why you persist in this^^^^ I'll tell you right off that I do not have a heart wrenching, gut churning, mind blowing, _story_ to tell you. =D

You're just reading into something that isn't there, MyJumper put it just right, in few word so you can try to understand:


> *By MyJumper:*
> She loves Jesus and is obeying Him. Jesus commands us to witness to others, that's what she's trying to do and that's what I'm trying to do.


In Christ,
~Ivy~


----------



## BaileyJo

ErinaStars said:


> BaileyJo, let me tell you now, I am not an author(you can ask anyone I know and they'll tell you the same...:wink, I don't know what you require of me to write. I'm not writing fiction for you, with words that make you feel like you are actually there, that create a strong image/feeling, I don't have that gift, this is not Fiction or anything.
> If my method of writing does not suit you, that's absolutely fine! My writing does not have to.=) But you can't make the call and Judge the motive of my heart, only *God* can Bailey, not _you_.....
> 
> *Exxxaaccttlllyyyy*. Only God knows what is in each individual's heart, in their mind, in their desires. If you really believe in God, who is the creator of all, you would believe that God creates them, puts them there! You *cannot* judge a person for not following what you believe. Which is exactly what you are doing.
> 
> 
> Bailey....I know that God is so much more than a quiz(He is above anything you can think or imagine!), I know that, so you can't assume I don't.
> *Evenutally you will even be comfortable with some not having one.*​When you do this you are judging people. You are deciding that they are not living their life as they should. Not God. Stop judging.
> 
> No True Christian can be comfortable with this, because then they (true Christians) wouldn't be worried about people going to hell because they wouldn't take the time to witness and share the gospel! True Christians WILL be concerned for the welfare of others spiritually! They will go out and share the wonderful news with unbelievers that Jesus came on earth to die for their sins! I don't want people to go to Hell, and I'm sure you don't either....
> 
> Actually I am a Christian. But to be quite honest, as I get older and mature in my thoughts and relationship with God, I question whether there is a Hell. There is only a distance from God. It is *us* rejecting God. God desires to be with us even when we reject God.
> 
> Lastly Bailey, as I've read over your post, it is evident in what you say that you believe something different then I do.​You can't tell me I don't have a (as you put it burning relationship with God, it like me saying:
> "Hey Bailey, you don't eat sugar!" and you reply,
> "Of course I do Ivy, what made you think I don't?" And I say
> "I can tell by the way you speak that you don't. Trust me I would KNOW. You don't eat sugar...."
> Get my point?
> 
> But you're saying the same thing about everyone else who does not believe as you do!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know why you persist in this^^^^ I'll tell you right off that I do not have a heart wrenching, gut churning, mind blowing, _story_ to tell you. =D
> 
> Listen, you said your life was miserable. That you were headed down an awful path. Awful path of what? And then had to come on to a public forum lit up to tell us about God's love and quoting the Bible. How often does that happen? It doesn't. So, something made you do it.
> 
> You're just reading into something that isn't there, MyJumper put it just right, in few word so you can try to understand:
> 
> 
> In Christ,
> ~Ivy~


I can see that you are not here to really learn from us. You are here to teach us. You have your blinders on and fingers stuck in your ears. Did you ever think that perhaps God brought you here to learn from us? 

Just try to remember, the greatest teachers are the best students.


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## Zexious

Fly--It's not true in all cases, but I would argue that's why people (generally, and as a statistic) become /more/ religious as they get older. Because they are more able to recognize the end of their life, and aren't willing to admit that being six feet under is the last step.



Anyway, I still don't get the point of all of this. It isn't right or fair to push your religion on anyone. In my opinion.


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## ErinaStars

BaileyJo said:


> I can see that you are not here to really learn from us. You are here to teach us. You have your blinders on and fingers stuck in your ears. Did you ever think that perhaps God brought you here to learn from us?
> 
> Just try to remember, the greatest teachers are the best students.


Bailey, I have tried and tried to talk with you, and you continue to miss the point. I read all your judgments against me, I have tried to answer you, you just want to argue.

However, I will continue to pray for you Bailey.

And I answered your question as to why I was miserable, it was because of my sins against God...can I be any plainer? 

If you don't believe in Hell, where did Hitler go? Where did Stalin go? Where did all the rapists who raped women and slit their throats and did so many other unspeakable things, where are they? Where are they if they never repented? I could go on... 

What about all the passages about Hell in the Bible Bailey? Here are just 3:

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. 
_Revelation 20:15_ 


And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
_Matthew 25:46_


Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 
_Matthew 25:41_

You _say_ you are a Christian but yet, you don't believe the Bible.

I'm praying for you,
~Ivy~


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## ErinaStars

Zexious said:


> Fly--It's not true in all cases, but I would argue that's why people (generally, and as a statistic) become /more/ religious as they get older. Because they are more able to recognize the end of their life, and aren't willing to admit that being six feet under is the last step.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I still don't get the point of all of this. It isn't right or fair to push your religion on anyone. In my opinion.


Zexious...we aren't pushing it on anyone...

~Ivy~

P.S. And just for clarification, *religions* are work biased(if you do good works you can go to heaven, if you lie on a bed of nails you go to heaven, if you punish yourself you are going to heaven...ect...ect), Christianity is not a religion, its not "works biased" Zexious.


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## TessaMay

ErinaStars said:


> P.S. And just for clarification, *religions* are work biased(if you do good works you can go to heaven, if you lie on a bed of nails you go to heaven, if you punish yourself you are going to heaven...ect...ect), Christianity is not a religion, its not "works biased" Zexious.


 *re·li·gion*

/rɪˈlɪdʒ







ən/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled [ri-lij-uh







n] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA 
noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions. 

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.


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## BaileyJo

When I was first challenged about the concept of no hell from my Theology teacher, I was infuriated. I said the exact same thing. But if you think about it, ALL of these people rejected God. Hell just might be a place away from God. Read those Bible quotes again, with the idea that the person rejected God. Not God rejecting them. 

What if I told you that I don't believe that you are Christian. You are not following the Bible. 
"Judge not, that you be not judged."

If you are so willing to pray for me, please pray that I can challenge you to think outside of yourself, to dig deeper than the surface and enlighten your relationship with God.


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## MyJumper

BaileyJo said:


> When I was first challenged about the concept of no hell from my Theology teacher, I was infuriated. I said the exact same thing. But if you think about it, ALL of these people rejected God. Hell just might be a place away from God. Read those Bible quotes again, with the idea that the person rejected God. Not God rejecting them.
> 
> What if I told you that I don't believe that you are Christian. You are not following the Bible.
> "*Judge not, that you be not judged*."
> 
> If you are so willing to pray for me, please pray that I can challenge you to think outside of yourself, to dig deeper than the surface and enlighten your relationship with God.


You are miss quoting that verse. Jesus is not saying we shouldn't judge, he's saying not to be hypocritical or self righteous in our judging.

Hell is a real place. It's total separation from God and total agony. God does not reject anyone. All the people in he'll had the opportunity to accept Christ and go to heaven, but they chose to go to hell.
I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, I'm trying to warn everyone.


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## jaydee

So do you refrain from sinning because of your fear of Hell or because you are a really good person and don't enjoy sinning?
If you don't enjoy sinning then why do it in the first place?
I hope you keep your heads covered in Church - even that might be regarded as a sin if you take Paul by his word


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## ErinaStars

TessaMay said:


> *re·li·gion*
> 
> /rɪˈlɪdʒ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ən/ http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.htmlShow Spelled [ri-lij-uh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> n] http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.htmlShow IPA
> noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
> 
> 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
> 
> 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
> 
> 4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
> 
> 5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.


There are lots of definitions of the term "religion" TessaMay.


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## Amba1027

ErinaStars said:


> Zexious...we aren't pushing it on anyone...
> 
> ~Ivy~
> 
> P.S. And just for clarification, *religions* are work biased(if you do good works you can go to heaven, if you lie on a bed of nails you go to heaven, if you punish yourself you are going to heaven...ect...ect), Christianity is not a religion, its not "works biased" Zexious.


So... You think Christianity isn't a religion? What is it then?


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## BaileyJo

MyJumper said:


> You are miss quoting that verse. Jesus is not saying we shouldn't judge, he's saying not to be hypocritical or self righteous in our judging.
> 
> Hell is a real place. It's total separation from God and total agony. God does not reject anyone. All the people in he'll had the opportunity to accept Christ and go to heaven, but they chose to go to hell.
> I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone, I'm trying to warn everyone.


But *I* say you are being hypocritical and self righteous. And this is how *I* translated the Bible and since it's how *I* believe it to be so it must be true. You are also going to hell as well. 

BTW, you are saying the exact same thing about hell that I am! It is not a judgment from God, by rather a rejection from us. There is no judgment day. 

Anyway, your warning comes at the cost of being judgmental on who is going to hell and who is not. Again, you're judging. Don't do that.


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## TessaMay

ErinaStars said:


> There are lots of definitions of the term "religion" TessaMay.


You're right, and every one of them that I have found online or written from credible sources say pretty much exactly the same as the dictionary quote that I posted. Nowhere have a seen anyone (except for you) state that a religion has to be based on a doing works system. 

You don't get to redefine words to fit your arguments, at least not if you want to be taken seriously by anyone. 

Christianity is a religion and no one except those inside the religion say any different. And why do Christians want to call it something else? Probably because they want to be set apart from other religions.


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## MyJumper

BaileyJo said:


> But *I* say you are being hypocritical and self righteous. And this is how *I* translated the Bible and since it's how *I* believe it to be so it must be true. You are also going to hell as well.
> 
> BTW, you are saying the exact same thing about hell that I am! It is not a judgment from God, by rather a rejection from us. There is no judgment day.
> 
> Anyway, your warning comes at the cost of being judgmental on who is going to hell and who is not. Again, you're judging. Don't do that.


It doesn't matter what you say, or what I say or what the pastor down the road says, it only matters what God says. 

There is a judgement day, God will send these people to hell. Hell is a punishment from God. God is going to punish these people for sinning.

I'm not saying whose going to hell or not, God already made it very clear who is going to hell. Everyone who sins is going to hell, Unless they accept Jesus as there savior.


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## MyJumper

jaydee said:


> So do you refrain from sinning because of your fear of Hell or because you are a really good person and don't enjoy sinning?
> If you don't enjoy sinning then why do it in the first place?
> I hope you keep your heads covered in Church - even that might be regarded as a sin if you take Paul by his word


I refrain from sinning, for multiple reasons.

1.) God commands us not to
2.) Sin never has good consequences
3.) Sin leads to more sin and turns into a vicious cycle. 

I still sin. I still have a sin nature and I know I need God's help.

P.S. I do take Paul at his word, but that's not what he was referring to.


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## MyJumper

Amba1027 said:


> So... You think Christianity isn't a religion? What is it then?


It's a relationship with God.


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## New_image

Intrigue Bailey, drag me along... I do not understand what rejecting God vrs. God rejecting someone has to do with the fact that there may or may not be a hell?

*When I was first challenged about the concept of no hell from my Theology teacher, I was infuriated. I said the exact same thing. But if you think about it, ALL of these people rejected God. Hell just might be a place away from God. Read those Bible quotes again, with the idea that the person rejected God. Not God rejecting them. *

Since God doesn't reject anyone, one should always read those verses understanding that the people headed "to hell" would have been people who never knew Him, who did not believe and thus rejected God. So I am missing how understanding makes the difference in drawing the conclusion that there is no hell other than a place away from God. 

Curious.


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## jaydee

MyJumper said:


> Everyone who sins is going to hell, Unless they accept Jesus as there savior.


 Since only one third of the worlds population are Christians Hell is going to be rather overcrowded don't you think?
These people know about Jesus - they just don't accept him as their Saviour or Christianity as their religion.
If you take the passage in Revelations literally only 144000 will be in Heaven with God
A lot of these people who go around preaching/witnessing have a negative effect - they put people off Christianity rather than inspire them so that makes them really bad sinners I would imagine


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## Chokolate

I personally would prefer to be doing good because I try to be a good person, not because I am afraid of eternal agony or the wrath of a (loving) God who would condemn us to this fate for the simplest of sins...

ETA As for Christianity, it is a religion. It has a God, it has a holy book, it has a set of beliefs, it has rules. Is Judaism a religion? Is Islam a religion? These are also a 'relationship with God' and are intertwined with Christianity throughout history. Any religion is having a relationship with a god.


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## Missy May

Unless and until an individual's specific "faith" gives license to harm or destroy, I don't see what the particulars of anyone's individual faith matters. By definition "faith" is believing in something for which there is no tangible proof.


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## Jessabel

The Bible is two thousand years old and has human fingerprints all over it. It's been translated over and over for _centuries_. It might have some solid lessons to teach, but I do not believe it should be taken as a literal set of rules to dictate every aspect of your life. I don't need to consult a higher power about every move I make, and the only person who commands me, divine or otherwise, is myself. 

Furthermore, any religion is accepted by faith. That means there is little to no factual basis. There is no single religious path that works for everyone. It's a personal choice and it's something you have to go out and find for yourself. Your faith alone does NOT determine whether or not you're a "good person".


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## MyJumper

Jessabel said:


> It's been translated over and over for _centuries_.


It has been proven that there is little to no difference between today's copy and the dead sea scrolls. Not much has changed, despite the fact that it's been translated for centuries.


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> It has been proven that there is little to no difference between today's copy and the dead sea scrolls. Not much has changed, despite the fact that it's been translated for centuries.


Proven by who?

Actually, I think you will find that it has been proven that there HAVE been changes. A few are listed here: 

The famous tale in John’s Gospel in which Jesus challenges a mob about to stone a woman accused of adultery — “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” — is a variant that copyists began inserting into John at least 300 years after that Gospel first appeared.

In the conclusion to Mark, the description of Jesus appearing to various disciples after his resurrection does not appear in the earliest manuscripts.

And in Luke, the crucified Jesus’ plea that his executioners be forgiven “for they know not what they are doing” likewise does not appear in the earliest versions of his Gospel.


Something a lot of religious people very quickly learn is that atheists are usually very well versed on the bible. We tend to have read it, and as a rule, know the bible better than a large portion of the christian community.


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## jaydee

I wonder how much of the Greek and Roman beliefs were incorporated into the New Testament to appease a population that were torn between a new religion and offending their old gods?
As for only being good because you're commanded too or are in fear of being cast into hell - then that is not truly being a good person.


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## Saddlebag

When a person's actions are questioned my first question is "where in the bible does it say we should stick our nose into someone else's business?" I don't remember the passage but Jesus said to "closet your beliefs". IOW - keep it to yourself. How many do?


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## New_image

I just wanted to clarify MyJumper, when you said: Because no one needs a savoir if they haven't sinned. You have to show someone that they are a sinner before they can be saved. (It's also the method Jesus used.)
And I responded with: "Then why don't you just let Jesus use this method?" I should have gone into more detail. You are very mistaken and that is not at all "the method Jesus used".

Throughout the gospels Jesus showed us several things. 1. He met "sinners" on their own turf. He did not drag them into church as many Christians think is necessary. He was interested in establishing common ground with others. 2. MOST of the time the conversations regarding God were started by "the sinner" or a third party member. Someone looking for answers and receptive. In the small handful of cases started by Jesus directly to "the sinner" he did not use "the method" that you use. Read John 4:7-42 or John 5:1-15 as examples of conversations that HE initiated and tell me how you do the same. SHOW me where Jesus has called these sinners bad people. SHOW me where Jesus demanded that they do anything for the gifts they received. Note verse 42, "Now we believe, not because of what you've said, but for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world". 3. How did Jesus discuss with "the sinners"? Jesus asked questions. He answered questions with questions not accusations. He seldom pressed for "closure" or a decision. He understood the time required for ideas to simmer and for people to own them before they act on them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May

Chiilaa said:


> Something a lot of religious people very quickly learn is that atheists are usually very well versed on the bible. We tend to have read it, and as a rule, know the bible better than a large portion of the christian community.


Well, I am not proud of the fact that I am not well versed in what the bible says, or that I am unsure how to interpret a lot of it. With that said, having been an atheist most of my life I knew/know several, many of which are not that familiar with the bible. Regardless of how many times most (not all, but _most_) read the text, they will not be able to verify what, exactly, the "original scrolls" say, or what scrolls that have not yet been discovered say. 

I have met few people in my life that could quote the bible as accurately and with as much ease as my parents, both atheist. obviously, faith isn't a function of how well one can quote the bible, or any other religious text. However, there is the freedom of religion for which we should all be thankful.


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## MyJumper

Chiilaa said:


> Proven by who?
> 
> Actually, I think you will find that it has been proven that there HAVE been changes. A few are listed here:
> 
> The famous tale in John’s Gospel in which Jesus challenges a mob about to stone a woman accused of adultery — “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” — is a variant that copyists began inserting into John at least 300 years after that Gospel first appeared.
> 
> In the conclusion to Mark, the description of Jesus appearing to various disciples after his resurrection does not appear in the earliest manuscripts.
> 
> And in Luke, the crucified Jesus’ plea that his executioners be forgiven “for they know not what they are doing” likewise does not appear in the earliest versions of his Gospel.
> 
> 
> Something a lot of religious people very quickly learn is that atheists are usually very well versed on the bible. We tend to have read it, and as a rule, know the bible better than a large portion of the christian community.


I'm sure you do know the bible we'll, I never said you didn't. I also know the bible quite well.

When the dead sea scrolls were discovered, archeologists and scientists found that there were very few differences.

What earliest manuscripts are talking about? I've never heard of anyone finding a manuscript that was not the same as the ones we have today.


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## MyJumper

Saddlebag said:


> When a person's actions are questioned my first question is "where in the bible does it say we should stick our nose into someone else's business?" I don't remember the passage but Jesus said to "closet your beliefs". IOW - keep it to yourself. How many do?


Mark 16:15 Jesus says to preach the gospel to every creature.


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## MyJumper

@New Image,

I am not dragging anyone to church. I never told anyone they had to go to church.

Jesus did call people sinners. In Mark 7:21-23 He tells the people their hearts are full of wickedness and they are sinners. 
Jesus commanded His disciples to preach the gospel. 
I never said you had to do anything to be saved. Jesus did everything.


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## jaydee

MyJumper said:


> Mark 16:15 Jesus says to preach the gospel to every creature.


Since the Gospels weren't even written until well after Jesus died that must be a translation error or another of those things that got added in?


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## Chiilaa

MyJumper said:


> I'm sure you do know the bible we'll, I never said you didn't. I also know the bible quite well.
> 
> When the dead sea scrolls were discovered, archeologists and scientists found that there were very few differences.
> 
> What earliest manuscripts are talking about? I've never heard of anyone finding a manuscript that was not the same as the ones we have today.


Which edition of what bible do you happen to have handy?


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## Zexious

If you're not dragging anyone to church, then why bother telling people that they are wrong?

The point was made about about Roman and Greek mythology. I saw a chart once in one of my classes (I'll have to see if I can find it...) and it listed all the similarities between Jesus and Greek, Roman, Pagan, and Egyptian gods. It was a very interesting read. There were far too many to discount.


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## Saddlebag

"Mark 16:15 Jesus says to preach the gospel to every creature. " Ok, on Sunday my horses will get a sermon. Not sure of the topic yet and not sure if I can keep them interested. Perhaps I can get the dog to join my little congregation.
Zexious, in the early days, Christ, meant religious leader when multiple deities were worshipped, long before the bible was written. This was back when women were accepted as religious leaders.


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## New_image

MyJumper - I generalized there, did not say that you were dragging anyone to church.
In the verse that you quoted, Jesus had stepped AWAY from the crowd and was speaking directly to believers, his disciples specifically. Who had ASKED for this definition. 
What you are not understanding is that Jesus did NOT start conversations with nonbelievers by showing them how "bad" they are as has been done in this thread. You say this is "the method that Jesus uses" and I am showing you otherwise. It is extremely alarming the "method" Christians claim that they should use.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ErinaStars

Saddlebag said:


> "Mark 16:15 Jesus says to preach the gospel to every creature. " Ok, on Sunday my horses will get a sermon. Not sure of the topic yet and not sure if I can keep them interested. Perhaps I can get the dog to join my little congregation.
> Zexious, in the early days, Christ, meant religious leader when multiple deities were worshipped, long before the bible was written. This was back when women were accepted as religious leaders.


@Saddlebag

Did you read that verse knowing what the meaning of "creature" is in the Greek?
Did you actually study what that verse meant?
Clearly it does not mean animals, you have to read it in context. 

~Ivy~


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## jaydee

Yet another verse with different interpretations. You have to decide which one to go with based on what best suits whatever you want to believe it to mean
Mark 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Translated from Greek it could mean creature so could well apply to a dog


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## Missy May

I will go with the meaning of "creature" to mean fellow creatures, I rather like that and it _makes sense._ If one were to do so they might themselves be forced to consider the subject of "stewardship" and "all creation".


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