# What is the difference between a barefoot trim & a farrier trim?



## draftrider (Mar 31, 2010)

IMO there should be nothing different between a barefoot trim and a regular trim. I think a horses hoof should look the same regardless if it is shod or not. I don't believe in all the "barefoot" stuff that they tout now, but I also don't believe in shoeing horses unless absolutely necessary. 

Cripes when we were kids our horses were barefoot because no one had the money to have horses shod. They always were just trimmed and given a pasture roll (now its a mustang roll) to increase breakover and keep the edge of the hoof neat.

I don't necessarily agree with shortening the hoof to the degree that some barefoot people do in the quest to make it look like a mustangs hoof. A mustang travels a LOT more than our pampered pets does, just to find food and water. Its not that their foot is tougher because it is short, its just tougher because they walk on shale, rocks, gravel and has to be hard and tough or the horse is dead. They are shorter because they do get worn down on this terrain. Not many people have this terrain in their backyard!


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## totalfreedom (Nov 23, 2009)

I don't know everything about a farrier trim but here's a few that I do know. Erm, maybe I should say, what I think I know. My knowledge is barefoot.

It seems to me that a farrier trim doesn't take into account heel height to stimulate the frog. They also don't take into account for any toe flaring and address the breakover point or a thick lamellar wedge to bring the hoof back to a normal hoof. Instead it seems that if there's a lamellar wedge/long toe then it's common practice to, "stand the horse up". There's no knowledge of the collateral grooves and what that knowledge will do for you when trimming. The farrier trim removes sole area to force a concave sole even though it's thinning the sole material.

To me it seems that a farrier trim doesn't consider the position of the coffin bone and trim accordingly. Nor does it try to generate heel first landings and develop a nice thick frog. Also it seems that a farrier trim removes large chunks of the frog, and try to keep the frog from contacting the ground.

The farrier trims I've seen, seem to try and grow out long heels to address a long toe which continues to push the frog from the ground. "standing the horse up"

Hopefully someone that does a regular farrier trim can comment cus I don't know much about em. Just what I've seen done seems that there's not much about a farrier trim that tries to create normal hoof function. It also seems to lack knowledge to generate that proper hoof function.

I visited a website of a farrier with like 30 years experience and was reading around through all the articles and stuff. In one article he was explaining how the bones should form a straight line with the front of the hoof wall. But all that was doing was growing out long heels and forcing the coffin bone into a rotated position. And in another he was saying that the frog is passive and shouldn't be contacting the ground.

But again I don't know the farrier trim that well. Just from what I've seen done in person and the little I've read from the internet.


In a nutshell a barefoot trim creates a hoof with proper function. It addresses rotated coffin bones, contracted heels, generating heel first landings with proper frog contact to the ground. It teaches to read the sole plane to understand the sole thickness under the coffin bone and what position the coffin bone is in. It addresses long toes with thick lamellar wedges by bringing breakover to where it should be. It teaches how to grow in well connected hoof walls. How to grow out wall cracks. How to get nice long strides with heel first landings. How to grow a nice concave sole instead of forcing it with a knife. Following Pete Ramey's methods teaches to allow the hoof the time it needs to grow in a proper hoof with a well connected wall and not to force it.


Basically it seems that farrier trim is knowledge on how to trim a hoof to accept shoes. And a barefoot trim is knowledge on how to generate proper hoof function by being barefoot like a wild horse.


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## Anvil (Feb 21, 2009)

In my opinnion the trims should be considered the same.
The steel should be to protect the hoof against harsh and rugged enviroment
not to form long toes or any flares all flares should be removed before nailing
any shoes on.
My practice is to shoe with a short heel and short toe.
Let the frog be your guide where to start your trim as the frog is the foundation of the foot.


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

I think that any bad things about a "farrier" trim that people tout are just ignorant people pretending to be farriers. 

A good horse professional - farrier or trimmer or whatever they want to be called -- cares about the horse, their balance their posture their heels and their everything. If a farrier doesn't know/care enough about the horse to not know/care about their entire body and foot then they shouldn't be taking anyone's money to tend to their horse! Honestly I think that negative stereotype makes absolutely no sense. The people trying to spread the idea that farriers as a general rule who apply shoes don't know/care about a horse and how their feet function is absurd. Maybe really lousy awful ones but no, not a a rule. 

Like some other people have said, there should be no difference if the person is any good.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Deerly said:


> A good horse professional - farrier or trimmer or whatever they want to be called -- cares about the horse, their balance their posture their heels and their everything. If a farrier doesn't know/care enough about the horse to not know/care about their entire body and foot then they shouldn't be taking anyone's money to tend to their horse!


I agree completely. Our old English farrier who convinced me and taught me to trim our mares myself was shoeing horses and doing barefoot trims before I was born (and I'm not young). In this area, if your horse had a foot or leg problem, you called him before thinking of calling a vet, and he would come and look at your horse without charging anything. He was still shoeing and trimming until shortly before he passed away at the age of 74. He was a wonderful man and horse lover, and to be honest, considering the years he had to work as an apprentice and his experience, felt it was too easy these days for someone to call themselves a farrier. 

Talk about experience....this man was not only a farrier, but a professional horse person and trainer whom we all trusted without question. You don't find them like this anymore. I was lucky to be able to learn from him. From his obit (with names removed)..

He was born in 1931, in County Durham, England, He served an apprenticeship for Farriery and became an expert farrier. His work was interrupted to serve two years in the Royal Army Corp. During his service, he was selected to participate in the Queen Elizabeth II Coronation. During the ceremony, he was in charge of Winston Churchill’s Coach Horses. After his discharge from the service, he continued shoeing in Royston, England. While there, he trained the 1951 English Derby winner. Later, he moved back north and while there the stable became the first to train over 100 Steeplechase winners in one season.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

deerly said:


> i think that any bad things about a "farrier" trim that people tout are just ignorant people pretending to be farriers.


exactly!!!!!!!!


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Thanks for the input. I have seen shod horse with really high heels, so I know what Totalfreedom is talking about.
That said, I'm sure there are bad trimmers just like there are bad farriers.
The trims I've seen done by farriers I respect, look to me like barefoot trims except they don't do the mustang roll. I didn't know if maybe there was something going on that I wasn't seeing which made them different.


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## Peggysue (Mar 29, 2008)

There shouldn't be any difference my farrier rolls my horses feet just not quiet as drastic as most barefooters do...


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Lots of great replies

As has already been stated, in general, there should not be any difference but not all shoers are created equal and neither are barefoot trimmers.

Back when I was hard trail riding and a couple of my guys wore shoes, the main difference I saw between my shoer trimming "for pasture" was he would pare off way too much sole and trim way too much frog. I couldn't have ridden anyone barefoot until nearly the next trim time if I'd wanted to. No one was sore but they would have been if I'd tried to ride them on the road.

When a horse is barefoot, none of the soul or frog should come off, unless they are ready to shed and need some help to speed the shedding process along.

Rolling the toe has been around for eons, as someone else commented. It is how my granddad taught me back in the 60's.

"Pulling the toes back" is something that should only be done by a very knowledgeable trimmer and only under certain circumstances. One of my four horses wears a really agressive roll on his front toes and he does need it.

I have trimmed my horses off and on all my life and it is not something I would have ever tried, but this horse now hits a lick at liberty that is pure delight to watch.

I continue to be amazed at the many horse ownerson these forums who don't have a clue what is going on with their horses hooves. They act shocked when the farrier mentions "whiteline, bruised sole or wall separation thrush, fungal issues", and wonder what each looks like:shock:

"no hoof no horse" is certainly the truth. While horses need brushed and shined, learn about the hooves and spend less time brushing and examine the hooves part of that time instead.

Every person that owns a horse (or several) OWES IT to each of those horses to have your nose down in those hooves to understand how each hoof on each horse looks and functions. Especially when the shoer or trimmer is there. There is no excuse for not learning - teach the horse to stand without holding it so you can observe and ask INTELLIGENT questions.

Sorry, got off the subject a little, but somehow this seemed like the opportunity to speak up


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## Binder (Oct 3, 2013)

What people refer to as a barefoot trim is where they roll the toe at the natural breakover point and you make a few degree dip on the bottom of the hoof wall at each side in the center so that the weight is distributed on the toe and heel rather than the weaker sidewall. The heel is cut down to a lower angle so that the frog makes contact with the ground. A 'farrier' trim is a regular trim where the contact surface of the hoof is trimmed flat(unless corrective trimming is used to remove pressure from a certain spot)to seat tightly against the surface of the shoe. The toe is not rolled because the shoe is now responsible for proper rollover. The sole is usually lifted higher off the ground becaue you need the longer wall for the nails to hold properly.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

The difference, IMO is mainly between a *good, appropriate* trim & a bad one. Whether farrier or 'trimmer', different people work to different theories, so it depends on the 'school of thought' as to the job you'll get. There is no one 'farrier trim' or one 'barefoot trim'. Whether farrier or trimmer, there are also (IME) way more average/substandard ones than well educated & experienced.

And that, whether you ever aspire to doing any of the work yourself or not, is about the biggest reason why I believe it's so important for owners to educate themselves on the principles & function of hooves, to make informed decisions on the approaches & professionals you use.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

& now I read the other replies...



Deerly said:


> A good horse professional - farrier or trimmer or whatever they want to be called -- cares about the horse, their balance their posture their heels and their everything. If a farrier doesn't know/care enough about the horse to not know/care about their entire body


Agree with you & very good points. It does seem that traditional farriery/education doesn't take that much above the knees into account, but then that's just my experience - may be another unfair generalisation.



> The trims I've seen done by farriers I respect, look to me like barefoot trims except they don't do the mustang roll.


IMO it depends on the state of the hooves & also the environment/footing the horse lives & works on, as to whether & what degree a 'mustang roll' is needed, as with the length of hoof walls, so I don't think that's necessarily a valid difference either.

The one major traditional difference I can think of is that most farriers work to the theory that the hoof should be peripherally loaded - that is, the load of the horse should be supported by the walls, whereas 'barefoot theory' (I think across the board) works to the premise that the entire hoof should share the load and the walls should not be a primary weightbearing structure.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Binder said:


> and you make a few degree dip on the bottom of the hoof wall at each side in the center so that the weight is distributed on the toe and heel rather than the weaker sidewall.


Yes, but there's no specific degree or rule(in my book) as to how much/whether you need to 'scoop' quarters - depends on the horse/hoof in question. The walls are basically trimmed equally from heel to toe, in relation to the sole plane. The quarter walls should not be(albeit they often are) weaker than heel & toe, and heel & toe walls shouldn't be taking the brunt of the load, but equally all round.



> The heel is cut down to a lower angle so that the frog makes contact with the ground.


I think that also depends on the state of the feet & environment as to whether/how much the heels should be in contact with the ground, and I can't recall any traditional farrier in these parts who likes high heels either... on horses altho for some reason they often leave ponies high heeled.



> The sole is usually lifted higher off the ground becaue you need the longer wall for the nails to hold properly.


Not in my experience/understanding. Most farriers IME trim walls to the sole(sometimes into:-() before shoeing, but some leave the walls overhanging, to shoe with more of a 'buffer'(I surmise). Either way the extra length isn't needed for shoes.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If a properly qualified farrier is trimming a horse for the same purpose as a barefoot trimmer then there should be no difference at all
There are 'rogues' on both sides because of the lack of certification laws in the US
In the UK only registered farriers are legally allowed to work on horses other than under supervision while in training. It takes 4 years and 2 months to qualify provided you are passed as capable and fulfill these other requirements
Technical Certificate – WCF Diploma in Farriery (QCF)
Diploma in Farriery (Work Based)
English and Mathematic Functional Skills (Level 2)
College Certificate in Business
6 Personal Learning and Thinking Skills
Employee Rights and Responsibilities


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

> Personal Learning and Thinking Skills


That's pretty special, that pommie farriers have even been taught to THINK!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

^^^^I was going to comment on that Loosie then thought better of it!!!!


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

jaydee said:


> In the UK only registered farriers are legally allowed to work on horses other than under supervision while in training.


Only for preparing a hoof to be shod, it is currently still legal for anyone to trim if they wish too.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I thought they were tightening up on that as well - but sounds as if they haven't.
I know there was a lot of concerns raised about the fact that totally unqualified/trained people could be potentially doing harm to a horses feet as owners had little way to check if they really knew what they were doing


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I thought they were tightening up on that as well - but sounds as if they haven't.
> I know there was a lot of concerns raised about the fact that totally unqualified/trained people could be potentially doing harm to a horses feet as owners had little way to check if they really knew what they were doing


There are discussions about tightening it up, but it mostly seems to be coming from the farriers and their fear of losing trade to trimmers rather than a public demand for tighter controls.


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