# Creating awareness of the welfare issues of Reining Horses



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I suspect a lot of competitions have ugliness behind the scenes, and sometimes up front. I'm not sure reining is any different. There are things reining does that I dislike, but that is true of most horse sports. Humans will always have a tendency to overdue things in the interest of winning.

"What those trainers and riders fail to understand is that people do understand and the pain and suffering caused when >100 pounds of pressure being applied to a horse mouth through reins being jerked or sawn through a mouth, or spurring that leaves dents on their sides like pulverized steak."

You could find abuse of the bit or excessive spurring in a lot of sports. Or outside. This is how one of our horses arrived here, and he was never used in competition:








​ 
However, I doubt many reiners are using 100+ lbs of force on the bit. Not on a normal basis.

But, as an example, the website attacks Clinton Anderson for saying to use whatever force is necessary to do the job. That isn't bad training advice. Beats the tar out of nagging. And some horses DO need more than just a gentle 'leg aid' or "_a well-regulated tap with a dressage whip_" (to quote the site) to be effective.

I don't think I'm Mr Brutality as a rider. My journal thread is here:

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/bandit-cowboy-bsms-muddling-through-together-622121/

But not every moment of my riding is gentleness, sweetness and joy. I've tried to darn near tear Bandit's head off when he started bucking, and I'm sure I've used at least 100 lbs of pressure on the bit a few years back to jerk Mia out of a bolt. I know it was every bit of pressure I could apply, because we were about to go full speed into the desert cactus. I try to keep just a few rules in riding, but I'll enforce those boundaries by whatever it takes.

Apart from criticizing, what are y'all actually trying to do?


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

bsms said:


> I suspect a lot of competitions have ugliness behind the scenes, and sometimes up front. I'm not sure reining is any different. There are things reining does that I dislike, but that is true of most horse sports. Humans will always have a tendency to overdue things in the interest of winning.


Agreed.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Also agree.
I have been to many horse seminars, where ethics and horse showing have been a topic, and the fact remains, there will always be those that do anything to win,esp when major money or recognition is at stake, which in turn, means money, either in breeding fees, or demand as atrainer
Heck, show venues are in the public eye, thus the abuse more obvious, but see what goes on in some recreational type activities also. How is that all going to be regulated?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

So because abuse happens in all horse sports we should ignore it, brush it under the carpet, bury our heads in the sand because its just too much hassle to actually make some noise about it and at least try to make a difference albeit a very small one?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Also agree.
> I have been to many horse seminars, where ethics and horse showing have been a topic, and the fact remains, there will always be those that do anything to win,esp when major money or recognition is at stake, which in turn, means money, either in breeding fees, or demand as atrainer
> Heck, show venues are in the public eye, thus the abuse more obvious, but see what goes on in some recreational type activities also. How is that all going to be regulated?


Could you give me an example of typical abuse during recreational type activities? I'm unfamiliar with that, except what pertains to simple ignorance and neglect. Which would come under general animal welfare statutes I would think.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Are there not still monitors in reining warm ups?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> So because abuse happens in all horse sports we should ignore it, brush it under the carpet...


No, but I also think the linked web site adds more to the confusion than the solution. I don't like the overflexing at least some reiners do, and I dislike the emphasis on lowered heads that seems prevalent in many western competitions. I also find it hard to believe the spins and sliding stops don't damage a horse's legs.

But asking if folks believe Clinton Anderson beats his kids takes what he said out of context and makes the web site look stupid.

They get upset over this:

"The modern reining horse trainer demands the horse submits 100% to their control at all times. The horses are purposefully bred to be horses that are most likely to be dominated.

Clinton Anderson, a well-known clinician and reining trainer-competitor, states in his video on reining training that “_reining horses need to be dumb and lazy talented horses. A reining horse is one that has to be dictated to. He has to let you take control of him. Smart horses can use their intelligence against you, so an athletic horse intelligence horse can work against you. Reining horses cannot be hypersensitive_.”"

About This Blog - Reining Trainers

But Clinton Anderson is right. A horse like Mia, who would do maybe 2 figure 8s before looking back at me and asking me if I was lost, would not make it as a reiner. Bandit and Cowboy are both less inclined to question than Mia, but they both thrive where they can use their minds and initiative. A horse who actively wants to be part of the decision-making process may be fun for me on the trail (at times!), but that isn't ideal for a reining horse - or a dressage horse. You don't want a reiner or dressage horse, halfway thru the test, stopping to stare at someone in the stands, wondering what that stale hot dog smell is and if the person selling them is dangerous.

When Cowboy was a lesson horse, people brought their own saddles to ride him - and there was at least one 200 lb woman who regularly rode 13.0 hand Cowboy. I'd bet many of those saddles were FQHB saddles, far too wide for Cowboy. When he was given to us, free, he was extremely arena sour and very mistrustful of people. Almost 4 years later, he is doing a great job of teaching my wife how to ride on the trails. As far as I'm concerned, he was an abused lesson horse...but a lot of lesson horses are like him, at least where I live.

I don't like how Clinton Anderson rides, and I'm not fond of him as a trainer - although he has helped a lot of people. I've given up watching western pleasure, reining and dressage because I don't enjoy seeing how the horses are ridden. But not everyone likes the way I keep and ride horses, either.

And regardless, no one in reining (or dressage, or western pleasure) cares about my opinion.

I don't like how CA rides Titan, but I don't consider it abuse. My corral has enough glass, so to speak, that I cannot afford to cast stones...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Avna said:


> Could you give me an example of typical abuse during recreational type activities? I'm unfamiliar with that, except what pertains to simple ignorance and neglect. Which would come under general animal welfare statutes I would think.


Sure, know an outfitter that used a running W to teach horses to stop, and some of the pack saddles he used on those horses was plain abuse
Know many recreational riders, that happen to ride in a western saddle, who use curbs that should never be in their hands, jerking on those horses mouths, riding with tight contact,two hands, often adding a tied down
In fact, one trail rider rode his Arabian stallion always with a tie down, and heavy handed. Once, riding along a bank, after a flood, that bank gave way, and that horse drowned, as he could not get his head up.
Just a few examples, but no one polices recreational horses, nor drug test them
How about recreational horses, that I reported, driving by, as they were in a corral, with only a moldy bale of hay to eat
In no way am I saying abuse should be tolerated, but look closely at ALL horse venues, even where major bucks are not at play, and you will see abuse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> So because abuse happens in all horse sports we should ignore it, brush it under the carpet, bury our heads in the sand because its just too much hassle to actually make some noise about it and at least try to make a difference albeit a very small one?



Definitely not, BUT everyone in any horse industry has to look into their own discipline, before taking a broad judgmental stance, and then come up with a working solution as how to monitor things, and not just in the warm up, although , any associations jurisdiction, ends outside of their sanctioned shows
Drug testing, on humans or otherwise, often becomes a race of new drugs to foil the drug test, or many trainers become 'chemists' 
For instance, and this is coming from avet, whose position to to enforce, monitor drug rules at many venues
Often one drug is used to mask the drug that the drug test is able to detect. Some dressage horses are given cocaine, so that they are on a downer, by the time of the test
Common for even geldings on the hunter jumper circuit to be on regulmate
All an organization can do, is also enforce standards in the warm up, and in fact, I saw one reiner disqualified at the Canadian Supreme, for hitting his horse with a bat between the ears, to get that sliding stop, rewarded by a low head set
There is an effective due process, if you think rules are not followed at a show, either on the grounds or in the show pen. You put your money up, with a written formal protest. The bigger shows have video reviews, and if your observations have merit, you will have your money returned
Posting on internet sites, does not get anything done
I saw one dressage show clip, in the warm up, with horses being warmed up in Rolkur-and the question, where are the ring stewarts?"
Far as that abusive reining trainer that I posted about, whop crippled a horse of mine, and who taught at the local college, I took him before the college board.
Sitting back, doing nothing, just posting bad examples, does zero!


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Sadly abuse is prevalent in virtually all equine disciplines. Big Lick in TWH's, rollkur in dressage, poling jumpers and hunters, spurring WP horses so their sides are bloody, jerking reins connected to harsh bits, using bicycle chain bits, running W's to teach stop, tying up a horse's head so high he's almost standing on tip toes, etc. Even pleasure riders are guilty--I've seen horses brought in after a challenging ride on a 100* day left tied in the sun with no water, skinny, old horses asked to canter up steep buttes carrying a rider flopping around like a sack of potatoes, harsh bits with constant jerking at every step, horses race to camp and tied up without loosening the saddle or cooling out, etc. What I've seen after hours behind barns at shows is disgusting, such as blood letting, chasing a horse around on a lunge line for hours, beatings, and other horrors


Thankfully our trail club is proactive of abusive riders and the state itself has made animal abuse a felony.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I think a lot of the problems come in when the Unicorn F*rt and Rainbow Stew Club try to get involved in sports where they have no knowledge and no experience. They don't have the horses to compete, let alone compete at that level, and a lot of the time they don't even ride. Things do need to be cleaned up but they need to be cleaned up by people with knowledge and experience at the level the clean up occurs. Bashing individual trainers, whose clients are not going to pay the least bit of heed to a rabid website is useless. 

The website is poorly written, twists comments and takes things out of context. I can't get past barely skimming the first 2 articles before quitting in disgust. Yellow Journalism is not the way to effect change in a certain discipline.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I know nothing about reining, but it is hard to take an organization seriously when they misspell their own name in their logo.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

Agreed Dreamcatcher. I was reading the comments on that site thinking to myself, "Jeez, this feels just like watching a YouTube video on x training technique and all the people who know nothing about horses come racing in all 'OMG, that poor horsie shouldn't have to load in a trailer, he should be in a field eating grass!'" It's hard to take the web site seriously when so much is taken out of context there, even if I think the material is *kinda* legit.

-- Kai


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I do not think this was the response the OP was hoping for. She/ he dies not know Horseforum. We are a sensible bunch. 

A discussion on reining training and what is done and what isn't good might have gone a long ways (because personally, I really dislike watching the training , what little I've seen is harsh ). But the website does nothing more than try to whip up frenzied gossip. Not cool here.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I do not think this was the response the OP was hoping for. She/ he dies not know Horseforum. We are a sensible bunch.
> 
> A discussion on reining training and what is done and what isn't good might have gone a long ways (because personally, I really dislike watching the training , what little I've seen is harsh ). But the website does nothing more than try to whip up frenzied gossip. Not cool here.



I think most show training is pretty harsh by necessity. Most of the time the trainer is given a green, untrained in just about everything, horse and has 90-120 days to turn out a darn near finished horse that can go and be competitive at upper levels of competition.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I think most show training is pretty harsh by necessity. Most of the time the trainer is given a green, untrained in just about everything, horse and has 90-120 days to turn out a darn near finished horse that can go and be competitive at upper levels of competition.


I blame some of that on the emphasis on very young horses carrying the sport at the highest levels. 

In Cutting terminology I think an 8 year old 75 horse is a lot more impressive than a 3 year old 73 horse. But the industry and money says differently.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

yes, that has been an endless 'chicken and egg scenario, with cries,rightfully so, to take the money of the young horses=does not matter if it is reining, cutting or racing, the big purses are on the young horses.
It has then been argued, would that prevent the pushing of two and three year olds, often started as long yearlings, or just give those same people more time to push those young horses?
I have seen a reined cowhorse, disqualified, because wiping a rag over his flank, showed some blood, where he had been accidentally hooked, turning a cow on the fence
At our breed show, a roper, was disqualified from the rest of the show, as he was abusive in the warm up pen
These incidents all happened because people in that industry policed what was wrong, with rules enforced, regardless of excuse, as a horse showing some blood in his mouth, because he stepped on a rein, still DQed.

At the NRHA 3 year old futurity, there is no doubt those horses have been pushed, as they are up in the bridle, doing spins, flying changes and sliding stops
So, take that 150,000 purse away, as a start. How about two and three year old 
It is abunch of bunk that race horses are carefully monitored, as many here in North America are run on lasix, being bleeders, due to the way they are managed and conditioned
In Japan and Europe, I believe, horses can't run on lasix, so have lung conditioning by some exercise besides those short track training sessions
The horse people that I truly admire, are the ones that compete at upper end, yet do not surcome to the mindset of doing anything to win
Very easy to say, 'not I', if, never in that position of pressure or temptation, where perhaps even your livelihood depends on you producing winners. Does not make it right, but does question someone's self righteous stance.
How about the infamous horse murders, where highly insured jumpers, no longer winning, were killed, by a hitman, hired by those owners, so that owner could collect on the insurance, and buy another horse that would maybe take him to fame and glory??


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

You will never stop the abuse of animals. it will never happen. 
People are cruel. There are many people whom pay the trainer and want the result and they want the result Now. They do not want it in a year or two which would give a trainer more time to teach the horses. A lot of cutting reining horses are half crippled by the time they are 8 yrs old. They have bred them down to pony size , tiny legs, tiny feet. They are down in their hocks. 
It is not just the reiners and cutters. Look at all the Halter bred horses. The TWH.
The over collected dressage horses. The dancing horses. Racing horses of any breed . 
The bottom line is Money.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jgnmoose said:


> I blame some of that on the emphasis on very young horses carrying the sport at the highest levels.
> 
> In Cutting terminology I think an 8 year old 75 horse is a lot more impressive than a 3 year old 73 horse. But the industry and money says differently.


I agree with you and it's why we don't do futurities. I'm not willing to push the young ones that hard.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Does not make it right, but does question someone's self righteous stance.


^^^^This right here. 

I don't have the answer to the futurity money chicken & egg question because I've seen what people will do for a $10 Ribbon and blanket of roses, so money really isn't the problem. It doesn't help, and may tempt some to go farther than they would without it, but if you're just a sorry baggage who'll do anything to win you'll still do it money or not.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Back in the 60s, my Mom and Dad enjoyed bowling. Please don't ask me why. I never understood it. But after a few years on bowling leagues, my Mom refused to bowl with my Dad any longer. Why?

My Dad was fiercely competitive. My Mom wanted to sling a few balls while drinking beer and telling jokes. My Dad wanted to crush the competition. They did fine - on different teams, or in different leagues even!

In riding horses, I take after my Mom. I just like to go out and ride a little with my horse, 'talking' with him, doing the equine equivalent of slinging a few balls while drinking beer and telling jokes. My Dad, riding horses, would have wanted to crush the competition - and no excuses from the horse!

Happily, my Dad didn't ride horses. But people like him do, and I don't know how one stops them...


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

bsms said:


> In riding horses, I take after my Mom. I just like to go out and ride a little with my horse, 'talking' with him, doing the equine equivalent of slinging a few balls while drinking beer and telling jokes. My Dad, riding horses, would have wanted to crush the competition - and no excuses from the horse!
> 
> Happily, my Dad didn't ride horses. But people like him do, and I don't know how one stops them...


I like to win. Who doesn't? But it isn't the be all and end all of the equine thing. If I'm going in the ring, I'm in it to win it, fully knowing that I may give my best and still someone else could be better that day. It's why I no longer go in to school. I can school at home, if I'm going to haul my horse 2 hours away, spend the night in a motel, eat out in restaurants and spend the money enter my horse in the classes, then I may as well be judged on what we do. My DH doesn't get why I still like to show. It's a good way for me to spend all day with my favorite friends (horses) and groom them, love on them and go out in the arena and see if we can do better than we did last time. I told DH, "I have nothing to prove to anyone. I've been here, done this since I was a very young kid. Now it's all about how well can this horse and I tune into each other and perform to the best of our abilities.". Being judged and receiving (or not) an award is one way to measure our progress as a team. 

I also get the 'throwing a few balls and having a few beers' thing. I love to go out on trail and ride, ride, ride and chat with my horse, sing to them if they like it, and bring them back to base camp and groom and feed treats and just enjoy the sheer joy of a horse's company. It doesn't get much better than that. 

Even when I competed fiercely for titles, I never got the 'crush the competition' mentality. It's just not my style. I've always competed against myself, or for fun, against friends but it's never been the crush 'em, kill 'em, kick over the traces kind of competition. That's a real good way to get me to walk away. It's one reason why I am getting more and more into Western Dresssage, it's me & the horse against a scorecard. That works for me.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm getting confused with the responses now. It still sounds as if 'because it happens a lot nothing can be done to stop it?
I don't understand why recreational riding has come into it because it's unlikely that any country is going to organize a horse police division to go around checking on people out trail riding or little boarding yards - or was it to somehow justify the abuse that goes on at competition level?
The only relevance I see in pointing at high profile people like CA is the very contagious 'monkey see monkey do' syndrome where fans see someone they admire doing things so they copy it - which is how Rolkurr spread like wildfire through the dressage community
The extreme hyperflexion that CA is always openly promoting is no different to Rolkurr. Anky used it and was always in the ribbons so others jumped on the bandwagon. If CA is winning then the same will happen.
Two studies reveal undesirable elements of hyperflexion in horses - Horsetalk.co.nz


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I'm getting confused with the responses now. It still sounds as if 'because it happens a lot nothing can be done to stop it?
> I don't understand why recreational riding has come into it because it's unlikely that any country is going to organize a horse police division to go around checking on people out trail riding or little boarding yards - or was it to somehow justify the abuse that goes on at competition level?
> The only relevance I see in pointing at high profile people like CA is the very contagious 'monkey see monkey do' syndrome where fans see someone they admire doing things so they copy it - which is how Rolkurr spread like wildfire through the dressage community
> The extreme hyperflexion that CA is always openly promoting is no different to Rolkurr. Anky used it and was always in the ribbons so others jumped on the bandwagon. If CA is winning then the same will happen.
> Two studies reveal undesirable elements of hyperflexion in horses - Horsetalk.co.nz


I think what we're trying to say, maybe not very well, is that WE have to stop the abuse where ever we see it. WE need to be the example that you CAN get a horse to do things without going to abusive extremes. And that applies to small boarding yards, recreational riding and the show ring, no matter the discipline. Pointing at CA or any other trainer isn't going to do much good. Most of their clients are too busy making and spending money to bother with boards like the OP has put up and really don't care what anyone else thinks anyhow. As long as THEY get to go around on CA's arm and their horses are with him and winning they are happy. \

If a certain sport is targeted, like reining, then the MEMBERS of NHRA need to be the ones who demand rules to stop the abuses, whatever they may be, and demand that the judges and ring stewards and time keepers and so on, enforce those rules right up to and including permanent suspension from competition. Unless an organization's members get really active and vocal, no, there's not much that can be done because it's not going to be supported. Look at Big Lick, there are rules, the Government has even gotten involved and they STILL can't stop the abuses. 

The Arabians have been complaining about balding, gingering and the hard stance for years and passed rule after rule. The Big Hair Trainers ignore them and no one in power steps in to enforce them and if someone goes to USEF, they get a deaf ear. So what can be done? Until you can mobilize an entire organization and get some support, the good old boys are far too entrenched for some newcomer wannabe to have any real impact.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We do seem to be on the same page then Dreamcatcher
It's very hard to for Joe Public to not get involved though, especially when they're horse lovers or just animal lovers - they can be helpful in making enough noise to attract useful attention, you just have to be able to separate the good from the excessive.
It's rather like the blood rule that centres around spurs and bits - it doesn't mean that spurs and bits are always abusive and cruel, just that they should be used correctly.
Some European countries get very involved in horse welfare laws, maybe too much, with the growth of competitive reining over there its likely that the FEI rules will soon tighten up a lot if abuse is pointed out too much


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I'm not involved in reining, at all, so don't know. Is NRHA and the competitions they put on part of FEI here in the States? If they are their own governing body, it won't matter what FEI does overseas, if they don't belong they'll just go their merry way. USEF and USDF are too involved here in the US in a lot of stuff and my experience with USEF is that they take their membership dues and pretty much do bloody * all for them. At least with the Arabian breed, so I'm not a huge fan of those so called governing bodies.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

jaydee said:


> ...The extreme hyperflexion that CA is always openly promoting is no different to Rolkurr....


Actually...it is different. He asks a horse to flex, then releases. He doesn't - that I've seen - hold it there for 10 minutes straight. That is because his goal is to have the horse flex quickly to very light pressure, and his goal includes riding with intermittent contact. 

It seems like a number of reiners are using that approach, and I don't understand why. I want my horse's BODY to respond to light pressure on the rein, not his HEAD. I suspect some of it comes from western riders trying to borrow terms from dressage like "round" without any understanding of what dressage means by the term, or any understanding of actual body mechanics. So they think of a rounded profile, and thus think of this as "round" and well balanced (random Internet picture, and I know nothing at all about the horse or rider...just using it as an example):








​ 
I don't understand it, and maybe a reiner could explain it to me. I see nothing desirable about that outline...but it seems to be rewarded in competition.

I'd love to see someone measure the differences in actual weight distribution and peak impact forces between the current style of stops and the old one. I'd also love to know why anyone WANTS a sliding stop - but that may be 'a bridge too far'! (and notice the reins below...):








​ 
I don't know if the hyper-flexing works for competition or not. I think it looks awful. But if I understand it at all, and maybe I do not, it is not the same as rollkur.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

bsms - Hyperflexion is hyperflexion (including lateral) regardless of how long you hold the horse in that position for and no one knows how long he or anyone else rides the horse in that position when training - the favourite for producing the muscle memory to make a horse work easily in that frame was to tie their head's in to their chests and leave them like that for often hours at a time.
When novices see a well known rider using it even if it is just for a few seconds they're quite likely to extend the time they ride that way to try to get the same results. 
I've watched the Titan videos and CA uses it a LOT, I have no clue why because I don't know of any competition situation where having a horse that drops btv so easily is anything desirable


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I like to win. Who doesn't? ..... Being judged and receiving (or not) an award is one way to measure our progress as a team.


I don't like winning. So there's one. Why don't I like winning? A lot of reasons. Including that in order for me to win, someone has to lose, and I'm usually conscious of the disappointment of others more than of my own triumph. Yes, I'm sensitive. But also:

1. the goals of competitions rarely coincide with my personal goals, so I'm working hard for no reason that makes real sense to me. Do I WANT a horse that does a four beat lope? Can canter sideways perfectly? Will jump over gigantic obstacles? Will trot a hundred miles? Will slide to a stop from a gallop? Personally, no. I have no use for those skills in my everyday riding life. I of course want a soft responsive calm horse, but I can work on those things -- without competing -- just fine. 

2. I'm really bad at keeping my clothes clean. I showed livestock in 4-H whites, the agony.

3. It's a lot more relaxing hanging out with friends without competing with them, in a place without a loudspeaker, that I didn't have to get up at four a.m. and drive hours to get to. Just my style.

5. Big one: most competition involves some kind of exaggeration. Which often enough incites people to abuse their horses to achieve that exaggeration. Maybe the abuse is slight, maybe it's grotesquely obvious. But competition in itself does not reward patience, kindness, compassion, or understanding. It doesn't reward a deep quiet bond with your horse. Those things can be present, but if they are absent, you can still amass tons of ribbons and prize money and accolades. Therefore it is really not particularly aligned with my values, much less my goals.

The OP wanted to draw attention to a part of horse competition which doesn't get as much scrutiny as some others. But as so many have said, there is abuse everywhere. My feeling is that competition itself invites abuse. Doesn't require it, but invites it. Anything for that winning edge. Hence all the semi-futile cries for regulation and oversight and rule changes. These cries are as much part of competition as the arena itself. I don't see any end to the cycle.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I lose all the time Avna. It's no big deal. It's part of improving and getting better as a team with my horse. But, that's the beauty of horses, we don't have to compete if we don't want to, there are LOTS of things to do with your horse if that's not your cup of tea. 

I don't disagree with your number 5 especially. I don't do the exaggeration thing, we don't wog, we don't trope and we don't peanut roll or over flex. We also don't 2 track down the rail loping so slow that the poor horse looks lame. Not my thing at all. We go out and do the best we can and have fun together. Some days it's good enough and others, it's not. Doesn't really matter. 

Today I spent the afternoon bathing Ducati and grooming him and starting to get him ready for Color Congress in November. We had a lovely afternoon just grooming/being groomed and he's enjoying it as am I. We'll keep on up with it until the show and then at the show, he'll do the best a young horse can be expected to do and he'll get pampered and loved on during the whole thing. It does not matter to me if he goes, first, last or gets the gate and never even makes the cut. That's not the point. There's no $$$ in it, except for the $$$ I put out to get us there. I don't really care how or what anyone else in the ring does their thing, that's how we do ours.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Momentary hyperflexion is something horses do to themselves. Bandit will often hyperflex when passing something he dislikes. I refer to it as "_Giving the snake neck and evil eye_" - totally horse initiated.

"_the favourite for producing the muscle memory to make a horse work easily in that frame was to tie their head's in to their chests and leave them like that for often hours at a time_"

This is from the book "Cutting" by Leon Harrel (click to enlarge for reading):








​ 





Again, anyone can read of a technique and over use it or use it incorrectly. That is true of every post on HF as well. What I tell people has worked well for me HAS worked well for me, but that doesn't mean they should do it or that they will do it the same way I did or for the same reason. The lady who did well with Mia, Trooper and Lilly used that approach as part of their training. She felt some horses learn better without a human getting in the way.

Done for hours at extreme angles, it is abuse. Done as Leon Harrel teaches, well, MY horses had no problem.

I obviously prefer flexions to hyperflexions, and I don't understand the goal when it becomes "hyper". I just don't think it is the same thing as rollkur, nor am I convinced the science says rollkur is harmful. I've seen studies on both sides.

"This study measured parameters of stress in recreational, trained horses (REC; n = 7) and elite (International Grand Prix level) trained, dressage horses (DRES; n = 5). The training of the DRES horses uses an unnatural head–neck position (Rollkur), whereas in the REC horses such training techniques are not common. The study measured stress by using heart rate variability analysis for 30 min postfeeding in the morning and 30 min postexercise after a morning training session. The study found no significant difference at rest between the REC and DRES horses. During the posttraining measurements, however, the DRES horses showed, among others, a less sympathetic and increased parasympathetic dominance. These results suggest that DRES horses tend to have less acute stress than do REC horses postexercise. The findings of this study suggest maintaining the health and well-being of DRES horses despite nonnatural, biomechanical positions."

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327604jaws0901_5

"The aim of the present study was to compare the workload of eight riding-school horses when being ridden deep and round with a draw rein (‘rollkur’) and when being ridden in a natural frame with only light rein contact (‘free’).

Workload (as measured by heart rate and blood lactate concentration) was slightly higher when horses were ridden ‘rollkur’ than when they were ridden ‘free’. There were no differences in packed cell volume, or glucose and cortisol concentrations. No signs of uneasiness or stress could be determined when the horses were ridden ‘rollkur’. Subjectively, all horses improved their way of moving during ‘rollkur’ and were more responsive to their rider."

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...in_contact/links/0f317538ad4770ad7b000000.pdf

"'If I am now forced to take on the Lotus position without any prior training in yoga, that will seriously affect my well-being but does not necessarily mean we should ban the position for everybody practising yoga’, was a remark by one of the representatives of the Animal Welfare organisations during the 2010 Round Table conference on hyperflexion at the FEI Headquarters that hit the nail right on the head.

https://www.writingofriding.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/rene-van-weeren-rollkur.pdf

Also: https://atrium.lib.uoguelph.ca/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10214/1792/rollkur.pdf?sequence=6&isAllowed=y


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I'm training my new Mare to do SHOT (Stock Horse of Texas) because it is a lot more well rounded. We'll need to do trail, pleasure, reining and cow work. I'm personally more interested in just doing something fun, and don't care too much about being the top horse and rider in any event. If I'm honest, I'd rather be decent in several than amazing at one or two. 






Don't tell my coach, she thinks we are gearing up for NRHA. I have no problem with the NRHA, but beyond getting through some shows and getting the experience on her I'm just not that into it. Would rather chase some cows and do some weird fun competitive trail stuff. I think my horse agrees. 

EXCA also looks fun, and from what I've seen the emphasis is entirely on horsemanship. I haven't attended an event in person or read the rulebook from cover to cover. It does seem though that the emphasis is on what you and your horse can do rather than holding an idealized frame or similar rigorous constraints. That seems more authentic to me.


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## Kaifyre (Jun 16, 2016)

I don't compete anymore. I like my horse to stop instantly when I sit down and say "Whoa" but he doesn't need to slide half a mile first. A nice, soft, stop on his back end is more than enough for me. I had people and judges telling me "slide him further!" Why? He stopped, as many judges commented, "perfectly". Nice and soft in the face, using his back end, etc etc. Why does the sliding stop require a runway to land on? I also like a nice clean quick spin. But spinning around and around and around in 3 or 4 circles is pointless to me as well. I think a full 360 degree turn is fine. Nowadays I mostly teach spins as a component of rollbacks anyway, which I think are neat little useful things. I know reining evolved as the western equivalent of dressage, to show the public what a horse can do with his body when properly trained. I think a smidgeon of reining training is generally beneficial for a western horse, to help him use his body better, as a smidgeon of dressage training is useful for an English trained horse.

Plus, I ride and train horses to have fun. I have a "real" job (a conductor for BNSF railway) that pays the bills. I have waaaay more fun performing for myself, or one or two close friends who appreciate the hard work it takes to train a horse well, than running through a list of pointless exercises for a crowd of people I have no association with. Everyone (well, 90%) of the people I met at shows was out to win. Well, we can't all win. Someone's got to come second. Or last. It sucks all the fun out of everything when you're pushing so hard to be the best, the best, the best! I'd tell people "I just want to run a nice clean pattern with my horse soft in the bridle" and people would look at me like I had 3 arms or something. Competition is great. But it's just not my thing. 

So many of those people who were simply out to win would do ANYTHING to win - I saw horses hit on the head to get that low head set the judges praise so much (In my opinion if the horse is soft in the bridle who cares where his head is?), riders taking their legs out a foot or more from the horse's side and jamming the spur into the ribcage to "bend" the horse (more like cut in half), one woman riding her horse in a tie down that held his nose nearly level with his knees! It's not worth some cheap ribbon in my opinion. Nor did I ever like the futurities - 2 year olds cannot be expected to live long and productive lives after having such an intense first year in. I agree with someone else's suggestion of taking the big money away from the 2 year olds and saving it for older, more experienced horses. That will help a bit.

-- Kai


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## reiningtrainers (Sep 15, 2016)

The monitors are often the show manager and he/she turns a blind eye to keep 'in with the crowd'. It would only be the extreme that is pulled up unlike in the cutting where the monitors are vigilant and the slightest discretion and you are packed up and sent home.


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I occasionally compete in reining. Not currently as my last main horse wouldn't have been competitive due to being a big old beast lol, but I am working on a colt to rein and cut. He however is seeing the vet tomorrow, so think what you may.

I did not read the website, but did read all the comments. I do not futurity so I have nothing to say in that aspect as honestly some of those horses do break down early. My last good show horse did come down with navicular. However I think that what I do and what I have seen is that most do not abuse their horses at all. My horse is a spoiled little brat. Lol. I am concerned for his longevity in the sport as well as his longevity working the ranch. I do not ride him in a way that I think would damage that. 

Most reiners I know, and myself included have very light hands. Our horses are not being pulled on. I will admit to seeing some seesaw on their horses face and I hate that, but I cannot imagine them going too far in the sport because their horses require that. I don't think CA is hard on a horses mouth either because he releases quickly, but that is just my opinion.

I see much worse riding when watching other sports and even recreational riding. People jerking on their horses faces for balance or when they are scared or want to do something fast and with zero timing. Horse trips, let me jerk on his face... 

And even these recreational riders, although I don't respect their riding, I don't think are really abusing their horses as long as they are not making their mouths bleed. Not feeding horses, hitting them with two-by-fours, these types of things are abuse and they happen regularly. Let these issues be the forefront and not a disrespect of someone's style of riding.


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