# controlling the hind end without giving the canter aid



## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Lonannuniel said:


> I've been doing more "advanced" movements recently, shoulder in, shoulder out, leg yields, etc. in the trot. I've found that when i put my leg behind the girth to control ( for lack of a better word ) the hind end, my horse thinks i am giving him the canter aid & speeds up or attempts to canter.



Probably the reason why I NEVER teach the canter aid by putting the outside leg back. 

I have corrected many students that get frustrated when they want to do a simple half pass and end up with the canter.

Re teach the canter aid by the use of the inside leg/hip closing on him. Outside leg is there to PREVENT the haunches from swinging out. If they don't swing out then the outside leg becomes passive.


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## kat44bg (Sep 2, 2010)

I agree with above, I also only teach inside leg. It will be a little confusing in the beginning but in the end it will all make so much sense and "flow" you will wonder how you ever did it any other way Good Luck.


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Spyder-can you elaborate on this just a little?

I am also another rider who has always known the canter cue to be the outside leg behind the girth. 

I have a new horse and she is very green. We havent done any canter work yet, but I would like to teach her this when we do start...


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

DubyaS6 said:


> Spyder-can you elaborate on this just a little?
> 
> I am also another rider who has always known the canter cue to be the outside leg behind the girth.
> 
> I have a new horse and she is very green. We havent done any canter work yet, but I would like to teach her this when we do start...


You simply teach the horse off the pressure you apply through the closing of your inside hip. If the horse is a little green the aid can extend farther down the leg to the riders heel or spur. If the horse swings the outside rear out then yes the outside leg will become active to STRAIGHTEN the horse and monitor any further potential crookedness.

If you get to the point of flying changes ESPECIALLY temi changes ( multiple lead changes) the alternating leg cues can be done very easily without causing the horse to swing their haunch...so early teaching from the inside saves on a retraining period.


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

So (forgive me) you cue the horse to canter on the left lead by closing your inside hip (left side hip) and applying pressure (if the horse is green and doesnt understand the hip closing) with the left heel *at *the girth?

I may be getting ahead of myself, but I dont think my horse is going to get this the first few times...any suggestions of how to introduce this to her?

She is *very *light on her sides and will literally sidepass with minimal leg pressure. I can see this causing her confusion thinking I want her to move to the rail instead of canter.

Thanks for all your help on this =)


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## mumiinek (Aug 4, 2010)

DubyaS6 said:


> Spyder-can you elaborate on this just a little?
> 
> I am also another rider who has always known the canter cue to be the outside leg behind the girth.


Spyder was explaining exactly the same to me a few months ago here
http://www.horseforum.com/dressage/leg-yielding-62955/page3/


My horse canters perfectly with just the inside leg now (we also moved to another stable and changed the trainer).


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_When I cue to canter...I use my inside leg, with maybe just a fraction of inside rein. If he doesn't get it right away, then I will also put my outside leg on._

_My coach prefers the inside leg method. It took some time to figure it out, and I do revert back sometimes to using my outside leg. Just takes time to remember inside leg...inside leg._


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## mumiinek (Aug 4, 2010)

VelvetsAB said:


> _When I cue to canter...I use my inside leg, with maybe just a fraction of inside rein. If he doesn't get it right away, then I will also put my outside leg on._
> 
> _My coach prefers the inside leg method. It took some time to figure it out, and I do revert back sometimes to using my outside leg. Just takes time to remember inside leg...inside leg._


Luckily I didn't have any problems switching to the inside leg cue as that's what always felt natural to me, I think that's how I must have been taught to do it as a kid (I then had many years break from horses). I always had to be reminded of the outside leg behind the girth, my trainer would be running behind me and yelling at me to put the leg behind all the time and I felt like crap for constantly failing to do so. I remember thinking to myself once "drat, I'm teaching my horse to canter on the inside leg" believing I'm making a big mistake. When I had my first lesson with the new trainer I asked him (amongst other things) how to make the horse canter and he said "always the inside leg!", I felt so happy :lol:


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

mumiinek said:


> Luckily I didn't have any problems switching to the inside leg cue as that's what always felt natural to me, I think that's how I must have been taught to do it as a kid (I then had many years break from horses). I always had to be reminded of the outside leg behind the girth, my trainer would be running behind me and yelling at me to put the leg behind all the time and I felt like crap for constantly failing to do so. I remember thinking to myself once "drat, I'm teaching my horse to canter on the inside leg" believing I'm making a big mistake. When I had my first lesson with the new trainer I asked him (amongst other things) how to make the horse canter and he said "always the inside leg!", I felt so happy :lol:


_Isn't it interesting how things are taught so many different ways, even in a close location? _


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## mumiinek (Aug 4, 2010)

VelvetsAB said:


> _Isn't it interesting how things are taught so many different ways, even in a close location? _


Well the stable I was in before was a few-horse teaching-in-the-backyard kind of thing, the stable I'm in now is a 60+ sport stable, number one in the country, they have the best horses, riders and facilities. They can't really afford making a mistake or tell you something just because _to them_ it seems ok. My former _trainer_ wasn't even a trainer, which I found out only here because as I learned he's a famous BSer (I met a few people here who moved out of his stable too). Actually I've never even seen him riding a horse (and neither did others that I asked). I spent many years without horses believing my years with them are over so when I got an oportunity to start riding again and found his stable I was so overwhelmed to be around horses again that I failed to see all the stuff going on around. I fell in love with one of his mistreated horses and decided to buy him no matter what, he was a little underweight brown-orange friesian with tangled tail and mane and rotten hooves, you can see his before/after pictures in my profile. Anyway, to prevent this from being another novel of mine, I'm very happy we're gone. I wouldn't belive him even if he came to me telling me a simple "hello". He was the kinda guy that would yell at you "PULL HIM TO THE INSIDE!!" and right after you did that he would be chasing you with "WHY THE .... ARE YOU PULLING HIM TO THE INSIDE!!"

I'm sorry for the rant, I'm still trying to put up with me being so stupid and ever considering him a good trainer. I now have to drive for one hour to get to my horse (while the "little funny stable" is 10 minutes away from here) but I know both me and my horse get the best we can possibly get.


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## mumiinek (Aug 4, 2010)

But it's true that on the internet you can find so many websites talking about the "outside leg behind the girth" canter cue over and over again. That's something I truely don't understand...


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

mumiinek said:


> But it's true that on the internet you can find so many websites talking about the "outside leg behind the girth" canter cue over and over again. That's something I truely don't understand...


The thinking behind this is that the outside hind leg is the starting leg for the canter so you use your outside leg to START the canter.

The flaw in this is that you are taught to start the canter from a grounded leg. This cannot be done as a grounded leg cannot be influenced...

The rider influences the thrust distance and power of any leg that is about to land in the action it will provide AFTER it strikes the ground. They can influence any leg by shortening and lengthening the stride. So in effect any leg used by the rider to initiate the canter is in fact shortening or lengthening it to create the desired gait.


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

When I taught my gelding the cue for canter, in addition to my outside leg he HAD to wait for me to kiss to go into the canter, outside leg back only meant canter when I kissed as well.


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

Icyred said:


> When I taught my gelding the cue for canter, in addition to my outside leg he HAD to wait for me to kiss to go into the canter, outside leg back only meant canter when I kissed as well.


The point? You've taught him to canter with your voice aid not your leg aid. Should you want to ride a dressage test, you'll have big problems - use of voice = penalties/disqualification!


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

And this is why I love Molly!

The leg behind the girth, for her, is the cue for a half-pass. Canter is either a kiss or a gentle squeeze with both legs, never both or she canters too fast.

I would go back to basic aid training and reteach to her that a leg AT the girth means canter, and behind the girth means "move the back end".


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

Kayty said:


> The point? You've taught him to canter with your voice aid not your leg aid. Should you want to ride a dressage test, you'll have big problems - use of voice = penalties/disqualification!



I was just giving an example of what I do...No need to get snappy. :?


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

I'm having the same problem. I was thinking of using a firm press with the outside leg for canter and a tap, tap with the outside for the side pass. But I have no idea how well that would work in reality. My girl is sensitive to aids, so the moment I put the outside leg on she's cantering, she won't give me time to tap if I want to do a side pass. 

I may have to see about re-training her to use the inside leg as a canter cue instead.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Icyred said:


> When I taught my gelding the cue for canter, in addition to my outside leg he HAD to wait for me to kiss to go into the canter, outside leg back only meant canter when I kissed as well.


_I am not a fan of having a horse associate a noise (click/cluck/kiss/smooch etc) as it makes the person rely on that noise. I ride with a bunch of kids who smooch before even giving the proper cue for walk/trot/canter. They carry crops for decoration. They sound like chickens. Cluck cluck smooch cluck cluck cluck._

_Saying woah is fine... That doesnt bother me._

_But this is my point of view on it._


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

Idk, when I give my voice aids they are very quiet, and people don't usually here them as they are only just enough so the horse can pick up them. I don't like clucking chickens either, I give the small sound and that is it, I don't repeat it over and over, my legs, seat and hand help reinforce and maintain the cue.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Icyred said:


> When I taught my gelding the cue for canter, in addition to my outside leg he HAD to wait for me to kiss to go into the canter, outside leg back only meant canter when I kissed as well.



So is there a kiss for the left lead and a different kiss for the right lead ?


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## Kayty (Sep 8, 2009)

*snort* it's a french kiss for left, peck for right


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Kayty said:


> *snort* it's a french kiss for left, peck for right




Ah that makes sense...I think.


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## DubyaS6 (Aug 30, 2010)

Thanks for everyone's input on this! I *think* I have a good understanding of how to introduce my mare to this idea. Good thing is that she hasnt really been taught anything so she will be the easy one to teach...me on the other hand;I will have to be re-taught


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

Icyred said:


> Idk, when I give my voice aids they are very quiet, and people don't usually here them as they are only just enough so the horse can pick up them. I don't like clucking chickens either, I give the small sound and that is it, I don't repeat it over and over, my legs, seat and hand help reinforce and maintain the cue.


_If you can make them quiet enough for them not to be noticable, your face could still possibly give you away._

_What happens if you were to sell the horse next week? The next person would have to be taught the noises, or might not even use them, so the horse *could* possibly become confused._

_Even when I lunge a horse, I say walk, trot, canter....no smooches. The only time I try to smooch is when I am jogging the race horses, and then its a flick of the line on their butt and a quick cluck._


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm curious, how do you guys make a walk-canter transition without smooching? I always have to smooch to Molly because I'm not sure how else she knows how to pass over the trot.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

equiniphile said:


> I'm curious, how do you guys make a walk-canter transition without smooching? I always have to smooch to Molly because I'm not sure how else she knows how to pass over the trot.



I will answer your question with one of my own.

If you smooch to get a walk --canter transition just how does she know it is a walk to canter and not a walk to trot transition needed?


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

If I'm at a walk, to trot I either squeeze with my legs or cluck very softly.
If I'm at a trot and I want to canter, I squeeze with my legs or smooch.
Is there a different place to place your aids for trot or canter?


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

equiniphile said:


> If I'm at a walk, to trot I either squeeze with my legs or cluck very softly.
> If I'm at a trot and I want to canter, I squeeze with my legs or smooch.
> Is there a different place to place your aids for trot or canter?


Absolutely everything you need is right here.


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-articles/my-article-part-1-a-16171/


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Thank you, that was very informative.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Spyder, you are the first person I have heard agree with the way I cue for canter.

If you don't mind my asking, what is your halt-to-walk and walk-to-trot cue?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Sunny said:


> Spyder, you are the first person I have heard agree with the way I cue for canter.
> 
> If you don't mind my asking, what is your halt-to-walk and walk-to-trot cue?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


As far as the downward transition read post two on the link I provided earlier.

Upward transitions require a balanced position (even loading on all legs) and the rider increasing the load to the rear so that the full request can be complied with by the horse. This will require a fitting rein for the horse to "jump into" with the rider allowing only so much rein forward to allow the horse to be lifted into the required gait and not fall on the forehand. I applied the aids I use BEFORE the horse has moved into the required gait and just continue as the horse makes the transition.

I know the above sounds a bit generic but the upward or downward transitions from whatever gait to whatever gait is applied the same.

What I use for each gait is also in that article.


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

Spyder said:


> So is there a kiss for the left lead and a different kiss for the right lead ?


No, my leg dictates which lead. 


And sure, voice aids aren't 'approved' of in dressage ring, but I think the lightest aid you can give a horse is the best one, and if my horse can and will respond to a slight movement of my leg and a soft kiss that is what I will do. It may not be the best for the dressage ring but in general riding work I find my voice to be a valuable aid.


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

VelvetsAB said:


> _If you can make them quiet enough for them not to be noticable, your face could still possibly give you away._
> 
> _What happens if you were to sell the horse next week? The next person would have to be taught the noises, or might not even use them, so the horse *could* possibly become confused._
> 
> _Even when I lunge a horse, I say walk, trot, canter....no smooches. The only time I try to smooch is when I am jogging the race horses, and then its a flick of the line on their butt and a quick cluck._


I don't know about where you are from, but where I am from it is largely universal for voice aids to be a small cluck to trot and kiss to canter, woah to stop. However if I were to sell the horse then I would explain what I did, and if they would like to retrain for a different cue they would be able to and have every right.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Icyred said:


> No, my leg dictates which lead.


So the voice cue is a supercilious cue you give after you have ALREADY requested an action from your horse BY YOUR LEG.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Thanks for the explanation, Spyder.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I was told/taught that the cue is inside leg at the girth and outside leg behind, gentle squeeze with both at the same time. 

One of my horses was taught that smooch = canter with no leg aids. The other was taught outside leg behind = canter. The horse with the smooch cue was pretty easy to re-train to my way. The outside leg one was more of a pain because I had no control over her hind. Everytime my leg went back she'd start cantering. It made turning interesting... 

I think I will re-train just on the inside leg though, from the sounds of it I can eliminate an uneccesary cue and gain the free use of my outside leg. I think... :lol: 

I'm just a "backyard" rider trying to figure out as much as I can without the money for lessons, so thank you for the explainations.


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## Icyred (Mar 31, 2009)

Spyder said:


> So the voice cue is a supercilious cue you give after you have ALREADY requested an action from your horse BY YOUR LEG.


NO. Once my horse hear's the cue for canter, he' knows which lead to pick up by which leg is back, just because my leg is back DOES NOT MEAN CANTER. If my leg is back and there is no kiss, then that means means he is to be doing another movement of sorts. 

I noticed you were all talking about how the canter cues skew with other movement cues and I just thought I'd share how I do it differently, next time I guess I know better than to offer my thoughts because obviously anything that isn't your way is wrong it seems.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

Icyred said:


> I noticed you were all talking about how the canter cues skew with other movement cues and I just thought I'd share how I do it differently, next time I guess I know better than to offer my thoughts because obviously anything that isn't your way is wrong it seems.



Not true. You can teach the horse to canter by waving you hand around. It is whatever you get the horse accustomed to. If you want to do simple W/T/C and never advance beyond the three simple gaits then standing on your head is acceptable.

The problem is not understanding exactly what you are or are not doing will become clear when you want to make the horse more responsive, supple and sensitive.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I never knew about putting a cue at the girth. I do know that in front of the girth drives the front end and behind the girth drives the back end. I did teach my mare to move her hind end with pressure behind the girth. I taught her to sort of side pass by pressure in front of the girth. Just never perfected it because of a no need thing. 

Just something fun! I did try to get her to canter off my leg but I think I was using my inside leg. But she seemed to get confused and ****y so I quit doing it! Now she knows only body position to move out. If I were to EVER kiss or cluck to her it would only mean "GO fast!". So I only use that when I race!  I know that the way I do it is wrong and in shows would be bad. But that's the way I do it and never planned to show or sell so it doesn't matter to me. 

Different story with my filly though so I'll be looking into this further.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

I think training starts with CUES: specific word/action that is answered by a specific act. As training progresses the cues get combined: so now I'm using AIDS, if that makes sense. It CAN be confusing to a horse, if you've taught him a cue, like leg=go, and suddenly you want it to mean leg=yield. So you take it gradually, take the responsibility of explaining what you mean. 

And I also believe the aids themselves change as you advance. By advance, I mean getting control of your horse's feet. I think most horses learn their leads better when your own leg "points" to the foreleg you want to lead with. However (and I've only taught this to one horse, so you can call me inexperienced!)-- when I started doing lead changes through the halt and canter, I wanted my horse to jump FIRST with her hind leg, to start the canter back there, so I began to prepare with the leg at the girth, but my horse learned to strike off with the leg behind. I'd gotten control of her hind legs.


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

I was considering working with the horse I ride to get her to use inside leg and seat for a canter. We've been doing more lateral work and she gets a little confused sometimes, but I try my best to keep all of my (canter) aids passive so she won't canter.
The reason I won't is because she's a school horse and I want future riders to be able to canter her without issues. (Even though I'm mostly the only rider and the barn is closing within the next two years, its just a bad idea.)


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