# The History of Pure Breeds



## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

HGEsquire said:


> The Arabian breed is typically known as the improvement breed/blood. There is Arabian Blood in most all horses as they typically are known to be the only purebreed of horse that exisits today. There is of course those that dispute this and state the Akhal Teke is the only purebreed that exisits....so who is correct?? I am not an expert nor is there a 100% guarantee either is correct so I continue to read and learn. Thus far, based on the information I have as of todays date, my vote if I had to vote would go to the Purebred Arabian
> 
> Denise Gainey


I agree the arabian is the oldest and the foundation to every saddle horse out there.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> I agree the arabian is the oldest and the foundation to every saddle horse out there.


Very true... people tend to forget that fact... :wink:


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Except that people would then be neglecting breeds like the Norwegian Fjord, which is actually suspected to be the oldest and purest horse breed (and which is closely descended from the Przewalski, which is the oldest "modern" horse by far), in addition to Icelandics (which probably _are_ the purest current horse breed, and are certainly very old), and then breeds like the Flanders horse, which contributed not just to the draft horses we see today, but also to modern riding horses...


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

The Fjord studbook was only closed at the start of the 19th century, and before it was, there was other colours that were not dun in the breed prior to that point. I wouldn't discount Arab from them ;-)

Icelandics would have to be the only other breed aside from Arabs that I would consider to be 'pure'. A government imposed ban on importing horses for the last 1000 years will do that to a breed lol.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

bubba13 said:


> Except that people would then be neglecting breeds like the Norwegian Fjord, which is actually suspected to be the oldest and purest horse breed (and which is closely descended from the Przewalski, which is the oldest "modern" horse by far), in addition to Icelandics (which probably _are_ the purest current horse breed, and are certainly very old), and then breeds like the Flanders horse, which contributed not just to the draft horses we see today, but also to modern riding horses...


I don't see where neglecting comes into it. They are all lovely breeds, but have little influence on American breeds as a whole. European- definitely.. 
Arabians have always been used to refine and improve most other breeds throughout history.. pure in their own right, having evolved as one of the three, possibly four sources of modern horses. I don't see a lot of Icelandic and Przewalski seeding our modern stock..
Horses, having been introduced to North America, not being indigenous, owe their ancestry in large part to the Spanish Barb. Arabian blood later refined untold numbers of horses in existence, including the draft..i.e- the Percheron as one result..


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I doubt Fjords have arab in there. I'll ask my breeder friend and see what she says


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

The point I was making, simply, is that Perlino's quote is not exactly correct, nor is it an "indisputable fact," as some seem to believe and have said. I like Arabians, anyway, and the influence they've had on some modern breeds is certainly substantial, in terms of adding refinement and the "pretty factor." Perhaps some help with endurance, too. But sometimes I think people tend to give Arabians too _much_ credit, to the detriment of the reputation of other breeds, which may be older or purer or more suitable for X discipline. And there's certainly a lot of misinformation about the origin of the Arabian horse, though I don't claim to be an expert in that regard....


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Look at a Perchie for example. You might not see the Arab in there, doesn't mean it isn't there. In fact, Percheron's have a quite large percentage of Arab blood. 

The only question in my mind is when you can say the Arabian was a breed, and not just a horse of oriental type. Because if you count the oriental type as Arab, then every breed that is not a Przewalkski has Arab influence, including the Icelandic.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

MsBHavin said:


> I doubt Fjords have arab in there. I'll ask my breeder friend and see what she says


Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I never said Fjords had Arab in them. That's sorta like saying Arabs have Fjord in them. I said most modern American horses have Arab in them. 
Two completely different points of origin.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Druydess said:


> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I never said Fjords had Arab in them. That's sorta like saying Arabs have Fjord in them. I said most modern American horses have Arab in them.
> Two completely different points of origin.


I didn't quote you, so that most likely means I wasn't directing my comment at you 
:lol:


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

How are you reckoning that? Were there not hardy, thick, short-of-stature ponies in China and Russia far apart from the "Oriental" breeds--and how would the latter end up in Norway? And if you're counting everything "Oriental" as an Arabian, how does that distinguish from things like the Akhal-Teke, or the gaited Marwari?

From the Fjord registry:



> The Norwegian Fjord Horse is one of the world’s oldest and purest breeds. It is believed that the original Fjord Horse migrated to Norway and was domesticated over 4,000 years ago. Archaeological excavations at Viking burial sites indicate the Fjord Horse has been selectively bred for 2,000 years.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Druydess said:


> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I never said Fjords had Arab in them. That's sorta like saying Arabs have Fjord in them. I said most modern American horses have Arab in them.
> Two completely different points of origin.


She wasn't directing that at you  I said that since the Fjord studbook only closed a hundred or so years ago, it couldn't be discounted.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> From the Fjord registry:
> 
> Quote:
> The Norwegian Fjord Horse is one of the world’s oldest and purest breeds. It is believed that the original Fjord Horse migrated to Norway and was domesticated over 4,000 years ago. Archaeological excavations at Viking burial sites indicate the Fjord Horse has been selectively bred for 2,000 years.



Lies! what they really meant to say was Fjords are all arabs with crazy hair! lol


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> Look at a Perchie for example. You might not see the Arab in there, doesn't mean it isn't there. In fact, Percheron's have a quite large percentage of Arab blood.
> 
> The only question in my mind is when you can say the Arabian was a breed, and not just a horse of oriental type. Because if you count the oriental type as Arab, then every breed that is not a Przewalkski has Arab influence, including the Icelandic.


Good point, but I believe the Icelandic was a combination of breeds resulting from the Exmoor and Shetlands taken to Iceland from England and Scotland by the Vikings, so they are not Asian in origin.. Arab is one of the three major modern horse predecessors.. The Przewalski is a second.. I have to think on the third, but I believe the Barb is a percentage of that mix...


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> How are you reckoning that? Were there not hardy, thick, short-of-stature ponies in China and Russia far apart from the "Oriental" breeds--and how would the latter end up in Norway? And if you're counting everything "Oriental" as an Arabian, how does that distinguish from things like the Akhal-Teke, or the gaited Marwari?
> 
> From the Fjord registry:


If you subscribe to the theory of four original 'types' of horse, surely you can see that there would have been interbreeding. There is too much differentiation between the Fjord and the Przewalkski to accept there is no outside blood added. Especially since there were documented Fjords that were not dun before the stud book closed. As for how they ended up in Norway - how did any horse at all end up there?

As for counting anything 'oriental' as Arabian, I was merely pointing out that there was the 'oriental' type before the Arabian was a breed as such. There is no doubt in my mind that the Akhal-Teke and Marwari have Arab blood, I would challenge you to show me a non-isolated breed that doesn't have recognised Arabian in the blood somewhere.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Druydess said:


> Good point, but I believe the Icelandic was a combination of breeds resulting from the Exmoor and Shetlands taken to Iceland from England and Scotland by the Vikings, so they are not Asian in origin.. Arab is one of the three major modern horse predecessors.. The Przewalski is a second.. I have to think on the third, but I believe the Barb is a percentage of that mix...


There were four theorised 'types' of ancient horse - Przewalkski is one, Tarpan another (extinct), Oriental (Arabs are the living descent but I don't believe they are an exact replica, only very very close), and heavy. Of the four types, only the Przewalkski exists in the form it has for all of time. The Tarpan has been recreated but it is from modern breeds.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> She wasn't directing that at you  I said that since the Fjord studbook only closed a hundred or so years ago, it couldn't be discounted.


I suppose it's possible... the Norse had amazing trade routes, with exquisitely crafted metalwork, and were superior seafarers, traveling as far as Greece and Africa. It wouldn't surprise me that they would import a few horses, or take some home with them...


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> There were four theorised 'types' of ancient horse - Przewalkski is one, Tarpan another (extinct), Oriental (Arabs are the living descent but I don't believe they are an exact replica, only very very close), and heavy. Of the four types, only the Przewalkski exists in the form it has for all of time. The Tarpan has been recreated but it is from modern breeds.


Yes, Tarpan is one of the types... In my years, it has gone back and forth between three and four..


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Druydess said:


> I suppose it's possible... the Norse had amazing trade routes, with exquisitely crafted metalwork, and were superior seafarers, traveling as far as Greece and Africa. It wouldn't surprise me that they would import a few horses, or take some home with them...


I would be more surprised if they didn't. Viking sees pretty girl, he takes her. Viking sees rich crops, he takes them. Viking sees pretty poneh and leaves it behind?


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> If you subscribe to the theory of four original 'types' of horse, surely you can see that there would have been interbreeding. There is too much differentiation between the Fjord and the Przewalkski to accept there is no outside blood added. Especially since there were documented Fjords that were not dun before the stud book closed. As for how they ended up in Norway - how did any horse at all end up there?
> 
> As for counting anything 'oriental' as Arabian, I was merely pointing out that there was the 'oriental' type before the Arabian was a breed as such. There is no doubt in my mind that the Akhal-Teke and Marwari have Arab blood, I would challenge you to show me a non-isolated breed that doesn't have recognised Arabian in the blood somewhere.


I see your point.
There may have been interbreeding. But time and availability would have to be taken into account. Horses were not imported as they are today, and if and when they were, the little impact a few horses would have made would have been very soon bred out.
But I do agree that Arab blood is probably in nearly every horse on the planet ..whether we see it or not


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Chiilaa said:


> As for counting anything 'oriental' as Arabian, I was merely pointing out that there was the 'oriental' type before the Arabian was a breed as such. There is no doubt in my mind that the Akhal-Teke and Marwari have Arab blood, I would challenge you to show me a non-isolated breed that doesn't have recognised Arabian in the blood somewhere.


Certainly the Akhal-Teke and Marwari have crossbred with Arabians, but then it becomes a chicken-and-egg thing: Who influenced whom? Who came first? What is the "original Oriental?"


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> Certainly the Akhal-Teke and Marwari have crossbred with Arabians, but then it becomes a chicken-and-egg thing: Who influenced whom? Who came first? What is the "original Oriental?"



Clearly the Arabian........... Better publicists


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Chiilaa said:


> I would be more surprised if they didn't. Viking sees pretty girl, he takes her. Viking sees rich crops, he takes them. Viking sees pretty poneh and leaves it behind?


I agree.. 
I imagine the Northerners, with baldrics and ******* swords used to cold climates, may have a harder time of it fighting for horses in the desert against really ****ed men with scimitars on fast Arabians used to fighting in nomadic raids though.. :shock:


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Druydess said:


> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I never said Fjords had Arab in them. That's sorta like saying Arabs have Fjord in them. I said most modern American horses have Arab in them.
> Two completely different points of origin.


She would be correcting me are fjords saddle horses? I have no experience with the breed?


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## HGEsquire (Feb 21, 2010)

MsBHavin said:


> I doubt Fjords have arab in there. I'll ask my breeder friend and see what she says


Get me a documented pedigree for a Fjord that can be traced back many generations and I will most likely be able to show you where the Arabian blood comes in  I promise to share what I find.....

Denise Gainey


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Druydess said:


> Horses, having been introduced to North America, not being indigenous, owe their ancestry in large part to the Spanish Barb. Arabian blood later refined untold numbers of horses in existence, including the draft..i.e- the Percheron as one result..


If you are going to use history, use all of it, not just the part of it that suits your agenda.

Horses are most certainly indigenous to North America - North America is where horses evolved. Arabians are descended from North American stock just as ALL breeds and ALL horses are...


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Faceman said:


> If you are going to use history, use all of it, not just the part of it that suits your agenda.
> 
> Horses are most certainly indigenous to North America - North America is where horses evolved. Arabians are descended from North American stock just as ALL breeds and ALL horses are...


Modern horses are not indigenous- things change a bit in 13, 000 - 2 million years..

Modern horses, zebras, and asses belong to the genus Equus, the only surviving genus in a once diverse family, the Equidae. Based on fossil records, the genus appears to have originated in North America about 4 million years ago and spread to Eurasia (presumably by crossing the Bering land bridge) 2 to 3 million years ago. Following that original emigration, there were additional westward migrations to Asia and return migrations back to North America, as well as several extinctions of Equus species in North America.

*The last prehistoric North American horses died out between 13,000 and 11,000 years ago, at the end of the Pleistocene*, but by then Equus had spread to Asia, Europe, and Africa.

Animals that on paleontological grounds could be recognized as *subspecies *of the modern horse originated in North America between 1 million and 2 million years ago. When Linnaeus coined the species name, E. caballus, however, he only had the domesticated animal in mind. Its closest wild ancestor may have been the tarpan, often classified as E. ferus; there is no evidence, though, that the tarpan was a different species. *In any case the domesticated horse probably did not arise at a single place and time, but was bred from several wild varieties by Eurasian herders.*


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

HGEsquire said:


> Get me a documented pedigree for a Fjord that can be traced back many generations and I will most likely be able to show you where the Arabian blood comes in  I promise to share what I find.....
> 
> Denise Gainey


If anyone can find it, you certainly could.. would love to see the results of that search..


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Druydess said:


> Modern horses are not indigenous- things change a bit in 13, 000 - 2 million years..
> 
> Modern horses, zebras, and asses belong to the genus Equus, the only surviving genus in a once diverse family, the Equidae. Based on fossil records, the genus appears to have originated in North America about 4 million years ago and spread to Eurasia (presumably by crossing the Bering land bridge) 2 to 3 million years ago. Following that original emigration, there were additional westward migrations to Asia and return migrations back to North America, as well as several extinctions of Equus species in North America.
> 
> ...


Well thanks for taking the trouble to surf the net a bit and prove my point. As I said, horses are indigenous to North America, and all horses originated from North American stock. 

And by the way, horses have not changed consequentially in 15,000 years other than being tampered with by man. The horse of 15,000 years ago was an Equus just as today - otherwise known as a modern horse. Once again, if you are going to use history, use all of it - not just enough to accomplish your agenda. Heck, if you want to carry it to the extreme, your Arabs are not "modern" horses in the literal sense of the word as they are a very old breed.

My overall point, and it is true, is that the perception that Arabian horses are the root of everything is completely false...Arabs have their roots in other breeds just as all horses do. Just because those breeds are no longer around is not relevant. 

Arabs are not the beginning, nor are they the end. Is the glass half full or is it half empty? Is the Arab used to improve other breeds as you say, or have Arabs been refined to become faster and stronger by mixing in other breeds to develop Thoroughbreds, Quarterhorses, and others that are far superior at their given task than Arabs?


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

How many years back to records of parentage of arabs go?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Quite frankly the pedigrees of any horse breed prior to the advent of DNA testing and parentage verification are extremely unreliable and untrustworthy.

Found this in regards to Arabians:

_Over time, the Bedouin developed several sub-types or strains of Arabian horse, each with unique characteristics, and traced through the_ *maternal line only*_. According to the Arabian Horse Association, the five primary strains were known as the Keheilan, Seglawi, Abeyan, Hamdani and Hadban. Carl Raswan, a promoter and writer about Arabian horses from the middle of the 20th century, held the belief that there were only three strains, Kehilan, Seglawi and Muniqi. Raswan felt that these strains represented body "types" of the breed, with the Kehilan being "masculine", the Seglawi being "feminine" and the Muniqi being "speedy". There were also lesser strains, sub-strains, and regional variations in strain names. Therefore, many Arabian horses were not only Asil, of pure blood, but also bred to be_* pure in strain*_, with crossbreeding between strains discouraged, by some tribes._ *Purity of bloodline was very important to the Bedouin, and they **also believed in telegony, believing if a mare was ever bred to a stallion of "impure" blood, the mare herself and all future offspring would be "contaminated" by the stallion and hence no longer Asil.*


So according to that, wouldn't most if not all modern Arabians no longer be considered "pure?"

Arabian horse history


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Yall are working extremely hard to discredit the arabian horses.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Yall are working extremely hard to discredit the arabian horses.


Not at all, and that is a rather shallow observation. I like Arabs myself, and obviously used them in my Araloosa breeding program to produce some of the best endurance trail horses there are.

But I get weary of the fantasy world approach some people have about Arabs, cramming fairy tales down people's throats. They are what they are, and to accept them for what they are is not discrediting anything.

What they ARE is a good horse and the most popular horse breed in the world, excelling at endurance coupled with reasonable performance ability. They are extremely aesthetic and invoke a picture of what most of us think as the "classic" horse. They are very smart and easy keepers, able to survive on just about anything. They are hardy, and have strong hooves, bone, and joints. That is hardly discrediting them.

What they ARE NOT is a horse that jumped off the page of a fairy tale book. They are NOT the origin of all breeds as I explained earlier...they are an intermediate breed - as most breeds are. They are NOT pure in blood as so often represented by the uninformed, although they are certainly more pure than almost all - or perhaps all - other breeds. They have NOT been used to "improve" the breeds of the world - quite the contrary, they and their desert cousins are base breeds that helped found more modern breeds and from which improvements have been made to create other breeds better at speed, strength, and performance. That whole "improving other breeds" line of thought is totallly illogical to begin with. Again, is the glass half full or half empty. While introducing more Arab blood into a Quarterhorse would improve endurance, introducing Quarterhorse blood into an Arab would improve speed and performance. To suggest that the former is "improving" the breed and the latter isn't is irrational and illogical.

Again, I like Arabs myself. They are good versatile horses and have a long, rich history. But they are flesh and blood horses - not mythical, ethereal unicorns with wings of gold, and there is nothing discrediting about seeing and accepting them for what they are...


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Faceman said:


> Well thanks for taking the trouble to surf the net a bit and prove my point. As I said, horses are indigenous to North America, and all horses originated from North American stock.
> 
> And by the way, horses have not changed consequentially in 15,000 years other than being tampered with by man. The horse of 15,000 years ago was an Equus just as today - otherwise known as a modern horse. Once again, if you are going to use history, use all of it - not just enough to accomplish your agenda. Heck, if you want to carry it to the extreme, your Arabs are not "modern" horses in the literal sense of the word as they are a very old breed.
> 
> ...


Well. apparently you missed mine. Being rude and arguing for arguing's sake is pointless. I'm sure there are others out there that can separate prehistoric horse and modern horse, and the fact that modern horse was re-introduced to the Americas- they were not indigenous. They were hardly what roamed the planet eons ago.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Druydess said:


> Well. apparently you missed mine. Being rude and arguing for arguing's sake is pointless. I'm sure there are others out there that can separate prehistoric horse and modern horse, and the fact that modern horse was re-introduced to the Americas- they were not indigenous. They were hardly what roamed the planet eons ago.


No offense, but you are out of your element. As I said, the horse of 15,000 years ago (which is not "eons" ago, but a blink of the eye when it comes to evolution) was a modern horse. If you refuse to believe that, then you know nothing of horse history or the natural sciences, and are ignoring physical evidence and documented history. Heck, Arabians are thought to date back to almost 5,000 years ago themselves. Why not try to learn for a change and expand your knowledge rather than blindly insisting the world is flat because you don't want to admit you are wrong. You don't have to take my word for it and I don't expect you to - research it...anywhere...


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

Faceman said:


> introducing Quarterhorse blood into an Arab would improve speed and performance.


What exactly makes you think that introducing QH to Arabian would improve the Arabian speed and performance?:?


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Yall are working extremely hard to discredit the arabian horses.


I haven't seen any discrediting here. Most of info is just what google gives us anyway.

BTW, I did search myself yesterday out of curiosity, and I found some research stating Akhal Tekes may be older than Arabs and were used in developing/improving bunch of other breeds as well. So it's an interesting question I have to say. I believe they are also more "pure" and don't have much variety as Arabs do.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Yall are working extremely hard to discredit the arabian horses.


Not me. I love them. It was an honest question.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Druydess said:


> Well. apparently you missed mine. Being rude and arguing for arguing's sake is pointless. I'm sure there are others out there that can separate prehistoric horse and modern horse, and the fact that modern horse was re-introduced to the Americas- they were not indigenous. They were hardly what roamed the planet eons ago.



Ha but I'm shallow I guess lol


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Faceman said:


> No offense, but you are out of your element. As I said, the horse of 15,000 years ago (which is not "eons" ago, but a blink of the eye when it comes to evolution) was a modern horse. If you refuse to believe that, then you know nothing of horse history or the natural sciences, and are ignoring physical evidence and documented history. Heck, Arabians are thought to date back to almost 5,000 years ago themselves. Why not try to learn for a change and expand your knowledge rather than blindly insisting the world is flat because you don't want to admit you are wrong. You don't have to take my word for it and I don't expect you to - research it...anywhere...


I'm sorry I just read this as you calling her stupid she's out of her element what the hecks that supposed to mean other than the way I took it.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> I haven't seen any discrediting here. Most of info is just what google gives us anyway.
> 
> BTW, I did search myself yesterday out of curiosity, and I found some research stating Akhal Tekes may be older than Arabs and were used in developing/improving bunch of other breeds as well. So it's an interesting question I have to say. I believe they are also more "pure" and don't have much variety as Arabs do.


Ha they also say the worlds gonna end in 2012 too lol I dont believe everything I read these days.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Ha they also say the worlds gonna end in 2012 too lol I dont believe everything I read these days.


That's not research, that's just crackpot theories based on nothing but hysteria. :?

The Incan civilization _didn't_ predict the end of the world in 2012, but people want to convolute the Incan religious beliefs into that for some odd reason. _Real_ research would show you exactly what the Incans believed, and why.

I've owned Arabians for the last 33 years, and I didn't see anyone showing disrespect for them. What I _did_ see was the debunking of certain fairy tales that have sprung up around them, exactly like the ones that have sprung up around Friesians and Gypsy Vanners. Arabians are lovely horses, but so are many other breeds.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

WhoaNow said:


> What exactly makes you think that introducing QH to Arabian would improve the Arabian speed and performance?:?


Well, it's rather obvious - for the same reason introducing Arab into Quarterhorses improves endurance.

If you need a physiological reason, it is because Arabs have been bred for thousands of years with endurance in mind, and their muscles contain a (relatively) high percentage of slow twitch fiber - long, smooth fiber conducive to endurance and not strength/power. That would be opposed to Quarterhorses, which have been bred for power, and contain a (relatively) high percentage of fast twitch fibers - shorter, bulkier fibers conducive to power and not endurance.

Thus when you add Arab to Quarterhorse, generally you increase the percentage of slow twitch fiber, increasing endurance (at the expense of power). And, of course, the opposite is true - when you add Quarterhorse to Arab, you generally will increase power (at the expense of endurance). I say generally, because with any cross there are always a few unpredictable results that don't follow the norm.

Although everyone may not know much about anatomy and physiology, and may not know the reasons behind the results of crossing Arabs, I think the results are pretty well known and well established - to the point it is pretty much common knowledge that using an Arab as a cross enhances endurance.

The same thing holds true with Thoroughbreds. TB's fall right in the middle, and demonstrate an almost 50-50 ratio of fast to slow twitch fibers. That is, of course predictable, as they have been bred for power (translation: speed), but power for a longer period of time beyond the explosive sprint power of a Quarterhorse. Thus, an Appendix, predictably, will not have the endurance (translation: speed over distance) of a TB, but will be more powerful and thus better at performance events than a TB, albeit not usually as strong as a full QH.

Once again, I am speaking in generalities or the "norm". As with any situation based upon genetics, there are always exceptions and anomalies.

It's science, but not rocket science...pretty basic stuff if you know the difference between breeds beyond the outward appearance...


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Well, it's rather obvious - for the same reason introducing Arab into Quarterhorses improves endurance.
> 
> If you need a physiological reason, it is because Arabs have been bred for thousands of years with endurance in mind,
> and their muscles contain a (relatively) high percentage of slow twitch fiber - long, smooth fiber conducive to endurance and not strength/power.
> ...


LOL, And I DO know the difference between the breeds beyond their outward appearance:-|.
Just wondered what you thought the QH could improve with regard to the Arabian??

I've known some QH/Arab crosses that were good, tough little horses, that could trail ride all day long:wink:


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> What I _did_ see was the debunking of certain fairy tales that have sprung up around them, exactly like the ones that have sprung up around Friesians and Gypsy Vanners. Arabians are lovely horses, but so are many other breeds.


Great post, SR! You so hit the nail on the head with that post.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Adding QH to an Arabian increases power and speed.

Are you looking for an answer different than that? Or are you just trying to say in an obtuse way that there is nothing a QH can do to to improve on an Arabian?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Just a jumping off point for those that want to discuss the history of the pure breeds. 

I hope to gain some knowledge here. 

What is the purest bred horse breed?


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## Laures (Aug 8, 2011)

the arabian,i think.


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

Laures said:


> the arabian,i think.


:mrgreen:


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

In that case....



WhoaNow said:


> What exactly makes you think that introducing QH to Arabian would improve the Arabian speed and performance?:?


What Face said, about muscle composition and anatomical/physiological differences. It's an indisputable fact that Quarter Horses are faster than Arabians (they do, after all, have the distinction of being the breed with the fastest raw speed), and also more athletic and suitable for the Western disciplines. Sure, purebred Arabians can cut and rein, but "cowiness" is far rarer in them than in cow-bred Quarter Horses, and due to their build and genetics, they simply aren't as good at "gettin' down and dirty," with very rare exceptions. You won't see any Arabians at the NFR, either, and that has far more to do with talent on their part than any breed prejudice. Many people have tried to make high-caliber Arab barrel horses....and failed. If you want a competitive horse for any of the above disciplines, but want to use Arab blood for whatever reason, you're far better off with a Quarab than a purebred.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Here's a great video on the Bedouin way of training Arabians..
I think what is lost in this culture is the concept of honor and consistency.. Bedouins' lives centered around the Arabian horse, therefore their word and their honor were a direct result of their breeding standard and production of the finest horses possible. They ruthlessly culled all but the best.
An interesting bit of video in the beginning is their history of feeding their mares milk and dates.. This was actually verified by a friend of mine who lives in Pakistan who has Arabians and Punjabis. They feed their horses dried fruits, figs, dates soaked in milk.. 
Also, I use some of the same training methods with my Arabs and their loyalty is just amazing.. Having bred them over centuries literally in Bedouin tents, aside their masters, certainly must have influenced their attachment to humans..


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

corinowalk said:


> Just a jumping off point for those that want to discuss the history of the pure breeds.
> 
> I hope to gain some knowledge here.
> 
> What is the purest bred horse breed?


Icelandic.


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Icelandic.


Agreed!


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## WhoaNow (Jan 18, 2011)

ponyboy said:


> Icelandic.


Agreed! I believe they are closed to any kind of outside breeding.:think:


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

The Icelandic would have a high probability being one of the purest breeds due to limiting outside breeding as they did not allow imports and once exported, ponies were not allowed to return..

Some info:
"The recently revived Eriskay Pony breed in Scotland is perhaps the closest modern day example of the type of horse that left Scotland for Iceland in those Viking longboats all those years ago. It is fair to say that the Icelandic horse shares some of its genetic history with of our native Scottish breeds particularly the Shetland, Highland and Eriskay with whom they have many characteristics in common."

"The ancestors of the Icelandic horse were small, sturdy and well adapted to the harsh Icelandic climate. They were brought to Iceland in the 9th century by settlers from the north of Britain and western Norway."

"Its closest relatives today are assumed to be the native horse breeds of Scandinavia and horse breeds of the British Isles."

"The icelandic pony is based on stock taken to Iceland by the Vikings when they colonized it between AD 870 and AD 930, and probably included the Fjord pony and a group of ponies from the Lotofen Islands. Later, settlers from Scotland, the Orkneys and Shetland brought their own ponies. These have blended into one breed, but various types and sizes can still be seen."

"The breed is not indigenous, but was brought to Iceland by migrants in disagreement with Norway's reigning King in the 9th Century. These were joined later by settlers from the Western Isles of Scotland who brought with them native ponies of Celtic stock (Highland ponies)."

"The Icelandic horse orginates from Celtic horses taken to Iceland by boat from Norway and Britain in the Ninth Century. The horses have been held isolated on the island with very little import for nearly thousand years. This makes the Icelandic horse one of the oldest breeds in the world and it preserved most of the appearance of the original Celtic horse."


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Regarding the Bedouins:

Bedouin Tribes of the Euphrates

*"The pure bred Bedouin horse stands from fourteen to fifteen hands in height, the difference depending mainly on the country in which he is bred, and the amount of good food he is given as a colt. In shape he is like our English thoroughbred, his ******* cousin, but with certain differences. The principal of these is, as might be expected, in the head, for where there is a mixture of blood the head almost always follows the least beautiful type of the ancestors. Thus, every horse with a cross of Spanish blood will retain the heavy head of that breed, though he have but one-sixteenth part of it to fifteen of a better strain. The head of the Arabian is larger in proportion than that of the English thoroughbred, the chief difference lying in the depth of jowl. This is very marked, as is also the width between the cheek-bones where the English horse is often defective to the cost of his windpipe. The ears are fine and beautifully shaped, but not very small. The eye is large and mild, the forehead prominent as in horses of the Touchstone blood with us, and the muzzle fine, sometimes almost pinched. Compared with the Arabian, the English thoroughbred is Roman nosed. The head, too, and this is perhaps the most distinguishing feature, is set on at a different angle. When I returned to England the thoroughbreds seemed to me to hold their heads as if tied in with a bearing rein, and to have no throat whatever, the cause perhaps of that tendency to roaring so common with them."*

*"It is commonly said in England that the Arabian has but one pace, the gallop; and in a certain sense this is true. Trotting is discouraged by the Bedouin colt-breakers, who, riding on an almost impossible pad, and without stirrups, find that pace inconvenient. But with a little patience, the deficiency can easily be remedied, and good shoulder action given. No pure bred Arabian however is a high stepper. His style of galloping is long and low, the counterpart of our English thoroughbred's. He is a careless but by no means a bad or dangerous walker. It is considered a great point of breeding that a horse should look about him to right and left as he walks; and this, combined with the great lengths of his pasterns, makes him liable to trip on even ground, if there are slight inequalities in his road. I have never however seen him even in danger of falling. The horse is too sure of his footing to be careful, except on rough ground, and then he never makes a false step. The broken knees one comes across are almost always the result of galloping colts before they are strong enough over rocky ground, and, though a fearful disfigurement in our eyes, are thought nothing of by the Bedouins. The reputation, so often given to the Arabian, of being a slow walker, is the reverse of true. Though less fast than the Barb, he walks well beyond the average pace of our own horses."*

*"There is among English people a general idea that grey, especially flea-bitten grey, is the commonest Arabian color. But this is not so among the Anazeh. Bay is still more common, and white horses, though fashionable in the desert, are rare. Our white Hamdaniyeh mare, Sherifa, which came from Nejd, was immensely admired among the Gomussa for the sake of her color almost as much as for her head, which is indeed of extraordinary beauty. The drawing at the beginning of this chapter is her very faithful portrait. Perhaps out of a hundred mares among the Anazeh one would see thirty-five bay, thirty grey, fifteen chestnut, and the rest brown or black. Roans, piebalds, duns, and yellows, are not found among the pure bred Arabians, though the last two occasionally are among Barbs. The bays often have black points and generally a white foot, or two or three white feet, and a snip or blaze down the face. The chestnuts vary from the brightest to the dullest shades, and I once saw a mottled brown. The tallest and perhaps handsomest horse we saw was a Samhan-el-Gomeaa, a three-year-old bay with black points, standing about fifteen hands one inch. He was a little clumsy, however, in his action, though that may have been the fault of his breaking. He had bone enough to satisfy all the requirements, even those of a Yorkshire man, but showed no sign of lacking quality. With very few exceptions, all the handsomest mares we saw were bay, which is without doubt by far the best color in Arabia as it is in England. The chestnuts, as with us, are hot tempered, even violent. Black is a rare color, and I never saw in the desert a black mare which I fancied. In choosing Arabians I should take none but bays, and if possible bays with black points."*

*"It must not be supposed that there are many first-class mares among the Bedouins. During all our travels we saw but one which answered to the ideal we had formed, an Abeyeh Sherrak of the Gomussa. Nor were there many which approached her. Among the Shammar we saw only two first-class mares, among the Fedaan perhaps half a dozen, and among the Roala, once the leading tribe in horse-breeding, none. The Gomussa alone, of all the Anazeh, have any large number of really fine mares. We had an excellent opportunity of judging, for we were with the Gomussa when fighting was going on, and when every man among them was mounted on his mare. I do not consider that we saw more than twenty "fok el aali," or, to translate it literally, "tip-top" mares, nor more than fifty which we should have cared to possess. I doubt if there are two hundred really first-class mares in the whole of Northern Arabia. By this I of course do not mean first-class in quality and appearance as well as blood."*

*"I cannot help suspecting that a certain amount of deterioration has taken place within the last fifty, perhaps the last twenty years. There is no doubt that in the early years of the present century, the Roala were possessed of immense numbers of mares, and had the reputation of having the monopoly of some of the best strains of blood. It was to their sheykh, Ibn Shallan, whom he called the "Prince of the Desert," that Abbas Pasha sent his son to be educated, and from them that he bought most of the mares, of which he made such a wonderful collection. Yet from one cause and another the Roala, though still rich and powerful, have now no mares to speak of. They have within the last few years abandoned the old Bedouin warfare with the lance, and taken to firearms. Horses are no longer indispensable to them, and have been recklessly sold. The Shammar of Mesopotamia have suffered for the last two generations by the semi-Turkism of their Sheykhs, Sfuk and Ferhan, and have been divided by internal dissensions to such an extent, that their enemies, the Anazeh, have greatly reduced them. Abbas Pasha also bought up many fine mares from among them at extravagant prices; and they now have not a single specimen among them of the Seglawi Jedran breed, for which they were formerly famous. The Montefik in the south, once also celebrated for their horses, have allowed the purity of their breed to be tampered with , for the sake of increased size, so necessary for the Indian market which they supplied. It was found that a cross-bred animal of mixed Persian and Arabian blood, would pass muster among the English in India as pure Arabian, and would command a better price from his extra height. The Persian or Turcoman horse stands fifteen hands two inches, or even, I am told, sixteen hands; and these the Montifik have used to cross their mares with. The produce is known in India as the Gulf Arab, but his inferior quality is now recognized. Lastly, among the Sebaa themselves, who have maintained the ancient breeds in all their integrity, various accidents have concurred in diminishing the number of their mares. Several seasons of drought and famine, within the last fifteen years, have reduced the prosperity of the tribes, and forced them to part with some of their best breeding stock. Many a valuable mare was thus sold, because her owner had no choice but to do so or to let her starve, while others, left "on halves" with inhabitants of the small towns, never returned to the desert. Mijuel, of the Misrab, told me of a mare of his, which he had been obliged to leave in this way with a townsman, and which , from having been left standing a whole year in a filthy stable, had become foundered in all four feet and could not be removed. Finally the continual wars, which for years past have devastated the tribes, have caused an immense consumption of horses. When a mare is taken in war she is usually galloped into the nearest town, and sold hurriedly by her captor, for what she will fetch, for fear of her being reclaimed when peace is made. While we were at Aleppo, mares were thus every day brought for us to look at, terribly knocked about, and often with fresh spear-wounds gaping on flank or shoulder."*


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

*"Besides all these reasons, the Bedouin system of breeding, as at present practiced among the Anazeh and Shammar, must have had a degenerating effect upon their blood stock, which is only now beginning to show its results. That this system has in most of its features been the same from time immemorial in Arabia, is no doubt true, but there is one point on which it is more likely the practice has been modified by recent circumstances. In former times when the tribes were rich prosperous, it cannot be doubted, but they kept a larger proportion of horses as compared with mares than is now seen. At present time there can hardly be more than one full-grown horse kept for stud purposes to every two hundred mares. Indeed, the proportion is probably far smaller, and this fact alone is sufficient to account for much of the barrenness and much of the inferiority of the produce, complained of in the desert. In England such a proportion would not be tolerated. Then , if there be any truth in the doctrine that in-and-in breeding is wrong, this too may be looked upon as an increasing evil in the desert. The Shammar have long been separated from the rest of Arabia, and, though occasionally recruiting their breeding stock by capture from the Anazeh, they have been for a couple of hundred years practically cut off from all communication with other horse-breeders. They have despised the horses of their Kurdish and Persian neighbors too thoroughly to allow any infusion of blood from them, and thus have been forced to breed in-and-in during all these generations. The Anazeh, too, though not so absolutely severed from Central Arabia, have, since the reduction of Jebel Shammar by the Wahabis, been precluded from free communication with the peninsula, and have become more and more isolated; and the evil has been exaggerated by the extraordinary fanaticism shown by both Anazeh and Shammar in favor of certain special strains of blood which monopolize their attention. At the present moment all the blood stock of the Anazeh tribes must be related in the closest degrees of consanguinity. That this fanaticism operates most injuriously there can hardly be a doubt. The horses bred from are not chosen for their size or their shape, or for any quality of speed or stoutness, only for their blood. we saw a horse with a considerable reputation as a sire, among the Aghedaat, for no other reason than that he was a Maneghi Hedruj of Ibn Sbeyel's strain. The animal himself was a mere pony, without a single good point ot recommend him, but his blood was unexceptionable, and he was looked upon with awe by the tribe."*

*"It is difficult to understand how it happens that the pure Arabian race should have in fact retained as much of its good quality as it has. In all ages and in all parts of Arabia, to say nothing of the points I have already mentioned, an unpractical system of breeding has prevailed, due in part to prejudice, and in part to peculiarities of climate and soil. To begin with, there has been the extraordinary prejudice of blood I have spoken of, and which, though doubtless an excellent one as between pure Arabians and "kadishes," is hardly valid as between the different strains of pure blood. An inferior specimen of a favorite strain is probably preferred all over Arabia to a fine specimen of a lower strain, or rather of a less fashionable one. Thus the Bedouin's judgment of the individual horse itself, when he does judge it, is rather a guess at this pedigree than a consideration of his qualities. In examining a horse, the Bedouin looks first at his head. There, if anywhere, the signs of his parentage will be visible. Then, maybe, he looks at his color to see if he have any special marks for recognition, and last of all at his shape."*

*" The education they receive, no doubt, prepares them for this, but at the same time it interferes with their growth, and prevents them from developing the full posers of strength and speed they might otherwise acquire. The colt, as soon as it is born, and this may be at any time of the year (for the Bedouins have no prejudice in favor of early foaling), is fastened, by a cord tied either round the neck or round the hind leg above the hock, to a tent-rope, and kept thus close to the tent all day, its dam going out the while to pasture. The little creature by this early treatment becomes extraordinarily tame, suffering itself to be handled at once and played with by the children. It is fed, as soon as it can be made to drink, on camel's milk, which the Bedouins pretend will give it the endurance of that beast; and, at any rate by the end of the month, it is weaned altogether from the mare. The real reason of this can hardly be the good of the foal, but the necessity of making use of the mare for riding. The Bedouins allow at most a month before and a month after foaling for rest. The colt then has not the advantage we think so essential to proper growth, of running with its mother during its first season. It continues, however, quite tame, and, as soon as it is a year old, is mounted a little by the children, and later on by any boy who is a light weight. The Bedouins declare that, unless a colt has done really hard work before he is three years old, he will never be fit to do it afterwards; so in the course of his third year he is taken on expeditions, not perhaps serious ghazus, where he would run some risk of breaking down or being captured, but on minor journeys; and he is taught to gallop in the figure of eight, and change his legs so as to grow supple. This treatment is indeed a kill or cure one; and, if the colt gets through it, there is little fear of his braking down afterwards. It is seldom that one sees a three-year old without splints, though curbs and spavins are not common. I have seen several animals with the shank bone permanently bent, through hard work when very young. I agree, however, with the Bedouins, in believing that to their general health and poweres of endurance this early training is necessary. The fillies go through the same course of treatment, and themselves become mothers before they are four years old. The colts are sold off when opportunity offers to the townsmen of Deyr, Aleppo or Mosul, as the case may be, or to dealers who come round to the tents of the tribes, during their summer stay in the extreme north. The best are usually taken by the townsmen, as the dealers, especially those who supply the Indian market, seldom or never purchase hadud colts. These cost about three times as much as the others, and it is easy to forge a pedigree. The townsmen, particularly those of Deyr, who are almost Bedouins themselves, know the difference well, and care for nothing but the best. Others are sold to the low tribes, who take them in to the towns for further sale, as soon as they have broken them. The fillies are generally kept in the tribe."*


*Very interesting stuff!*


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Regarding the Bedouins:
> 
> Bedouin Tribes of the Euphrates
> 
> ...


Are you flipping kidding me that video was neat and I enjoyed watching it the horses were gorgeous. Sadly you felt the need to rip it to pieces....unbelievable , you go out of your way to contradict Druydess very obvious I see a certain few follow her from thread to thread alway's after her every word.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

From the same article:

* As I have already said, they will not tell a falsehood in respect of the breeding of their animals, a habit partly due to the honor in which all things connected with horseflesh are held, partly, too, not doubt, to the public notoriety of the breed or breeds in each family, which would at once expose the falsehood; and public opinion is severe on this head.*

*
"The Arabians have indeed no tables of genealogy to prove the descent of their Kochlani; yet they are sure of the legitimacy of the progeny; for a mare of this race is never covered unless in the presence of witnesses, who must be Arabians. This people do not indeed always stickle at perjury; but in a case of such serious importance, they are careful to deal conscientiously. there is no instance of false testimony given in respect to the descent of a horse. Every Arabian is persuaded that himself and his whole family would be ruined, if he should prevaricate in giving his oath in an affair of such consequence.
.*

Interesting indeed.

"Horse traders" are everywhere... a quality breeder is just that...


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I did see that. Wonder why she contradicts herself....or perhaps she was talking about two different tribes, and just didn't make that clear?

And LMPQH, if you'd actually read what I'd posted, you'd see that all of my post was _QUOTED FROM A LINK FROM AN ARTICLE WRITTEN IN 1869 BY SOMEONE WHO EXPERIENCED IT ALL FIRSTHAND._


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> We were told by the admin guy to keep the discussion going lol that he was gonna create a separate thread after a certain post then his posts were poof gone lol





bubba13 said:


> I did see that. Wonder why she contradicts herself....or perhaps she was talking about two different tribes, and just didn't make that clear?
> 
> And LMPQH, if you'd actually read what I'd posted, you'd see that all of my post was _QUOTED FROM A LINK FROM AN ARTICLE WRITTEN IN 1869 BY SOMEONE WHO EXPERIENCED IT ALL FIRSTHAND._


I would think in part, because her husband wrote part of the article, and from what I've learned of their history and the history of Crabbet Stud, he wasn't always in agreement with Lady Blunt. SHE however made the decisions as to what Arabians were imported..and spent lengthy amounts of time living in the Middle East doing her research.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

That man in the video has such patience and kindness, the horses respond so well to him. I can see how centuries of this training would have resulted in such loyal, calm mounts, especially in battle. Their mares were their prized warhorses..


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Celeste said:


> How many years back to records of parentage of arabs go?


Most of the time, if registered, or with an oral history, per Arabian tradition, all the way back to the desert, and before..

My Arabs can trace their history to the desert. Before the "Registry," Arabs kept "books" highly valued with the breeding records or cited them from memory, a task very carefully honed by families.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah, well, my Quarter Horses can trace their history to the forests. See the familial resemblence? :mrgreen:


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## RisingPhoenix (Oct 19, 2008)

Druydess said:


> My Arabs can trace their history to the desert.


Isn't that a given for every _Arabian_ at some point in its lineage?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

All of this is assuming that the old studbooks really _are_ accurate. I don't take that as a given fact. Were fences (or stakes in the ground) really that much stronger in those days then they are now? Did mares never slip foals after being covered by a certain stallion (with witnesses), only to be rebred shortly thereafter by a roving stud? Was every single person honest every single time? Were horses never "lost" for a time, in battle or whatever, and then regained, and misplaced? Did horse traders never cheat, lie, steal, forge, or substitute proof of pedigree? Without DNA evidence, there is absolutely no way to verify claims, and absolutely no way that all of our knowledge of Arabian (or any breed) pedigree is correct.

As for the Bedouins treating their horses so very well, there's a lot of disagreement on that point from the link I stumbled across. 

*"They go, however, immense distances in this way, cantering and stopping and cantering again, and are out sometimes for a whole month together, during which time their mares are very insufficiently fed, and often kept for days at a time without water. They are also exposed to every hardship in the way of climate, heat, and cold, and pitiless wind. The mares then, depend rather on stoutness and long endurance of privations, than on speed, for finding favor with their masters."*

*" Horses, mares, colts, and all alike are starved during great part of the year, no corn being ever given, and only camel's milk when other food fails. they are often without water for several days together, and in the most piercing nights of winter they stand uncovered, and with no more shelter than can be got on the lee side of the tents. Their coats become long and shaggy, and they are left uncombed and unbrushed till the new coat comes in spring. At these times they are ragged-looking scarecrows, half-starved, and as rough as ponies."*

*"He knows little of showing off a horse, or even of making him stand to advantage, but, however anxious he may be to sell him, brings him just as he is, dirty and ragged, tired, and perhaps broken-kneed. He has a supreme contempt himself for everything except blood in his beast, and he expects everybody else to have the same. He knows nothing of the simple art of telling a horse's age by the teeth, and still less of any dealer's trick in the way of false marking. this comes from the fact that in the tribe, each colt's age is a matter of public notoriety. We avoided, as much as possible, having direct commercial dealings with our friends in the desert, but, form all we heard and the little we saw of such transactions, it is evidently very difficult to strike a satisfactory bargain. As soon as one price is fixed, another is substituted; and, unless the intending purchaser rides resolutely away, there is no chance of the bargain being really concluded. Once done, however, and the money counted and re-counted by half a dozen disinterested friends, the horse or mare may be led away. I do not think the Bedouins have in general much personal love for their mares, only a great deal of pride in them, and a full sense of their value."*

Much like the Indians of the Americas, and the Vaqueros of Mexico, and the Greeks of Xenophon's time, it seems as though much of the "horse whisperer" and "gentle, trusting, understanding horsemanship" stuff has been greatly exaggerated to suit myths and stories.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Druydess said:


> Most of the time, if registered, or with an oral history, per Arabian tradition, all the way back to the desert, and before..
> 
> My Arabs can trace their history to the desert. Before the "Registry," Arabs kept "books" highly valued with the breeding records or cited them from memory, a task very carefully honed by families.


"Back to the desert" has absolutely no chronological meaning....that could mean the sire or dam is from the Middle East or it could mean 100 generations ago.

The fact of the matter, of course, is that DNA is the only positive proof of ancestry. Records...whether oral, written, through registries, or not through registries, are only as accurate as the word of every person in the succession. It would be naive for any of us to assume any long term ancestry record on any horse is 100% accurate. Hopefully it won't bust your bubble, but people in the Middle East lie, cheat, steal, and are greedy just as much as anyone else.

I don't think that affects the point that Arabs are likely the purest of the common breeds, which I think they obviously are, because the fence jumpers and lieing breeders are probably equal in all breeds so is a wash, but "purest" is the key word - no breed is actually pure...


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Some information on the five strains of the Arabian horse, which all have origins in the purest blood..

For centuries, the Bedouin tracked the ancestry of each horse through an oral tradition. Horses of the purest blood were known as Asil and crossbreeding with non-Asil horses was forbidden. Mares were the most valued, both for riding and breeding, and pedigree families were traced through the female line. The Bedouin did not believe in gelding male horses, and considered stallions too intractable to be good war horses, thus they kept very few male foals (colts), selling most, and culling those of poor quality.
Over time, the Bedouin developed several sub-types or strains of Arabian horse, each with unique characteristics. The strains were traced through the maternal line, not through the paternal. According to the Arabian Horse Association, the five primary strains were known as the Keheilan, Seglawi, Abeyan, Hamdani and Hadban. There were also lesser strains, sub-strains, and regional variations in strain names. Thus, many Arabian horses were not only Asil, of pure blood, but also bred to be pure in strain as well, with crossbreeding between strains discouraged, though not forbidden, by some tribes. Purity of bloodline was very important to the Bedouin, and they also believed in telegony, believing if a mare was ever bred to a stallion of "impure" blood, the mare herself and all future offspring would be "contaminated" by the stallion and hence no longer Asil. Carl Raswan, a promoter and writer about Arabian horses from the middle of the 20th century, held the belief that there were only three strains, Kehilan, Seglawi and Muniqi. Raswan felt that these strains represented body "types" of the breed, with the Kehilan being "masculine", the Seglawi being "feminine" and the Muniqi being "speedy".
This complex web of bloodline and strain was an integral part of Bedouin culture. The Bedouin knew the pedigrees and history of their best war mares in detail, via an oral tradition that also tracked the breeding of their camels, Saluki dogs, and their own family or tribal history. Eventually, written records began to be kept; the first written pedigrees in the Middle East that specifically used the term "Arabian" date to 1330 A.D.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Some very interesting facts about the spread of the Arabian, including evidence of similar skeletal structure dated 1700BC, thought to be brought to the area by the Hyksos invasions, as well as the importance of Lady Blunt's Crabbet Stud..

Fiery war horses with dished faces and high-carried tails were popular artistic subjects in Ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, often depicted pulling chariots in war or for hunting. Horses with oriental characteristics appear in artwork as far north as that of Ancient Greece and the Roman Empire. While the horse wasn't called an "Arabian" in the Ancient Near East until later, (the word "Arabia" or "Arabaya" only first appeared in writings by the ancient Persians, circa 500 B.C.,) these "proto-Arabian" or "Oriental" horses shared many characteristics with the modern Arabian, including speed, endurance, and refinement. For example, a horse skeleton unearthed in the Sinai peninsula, dated to 1700 B.C., is considered the earliest physical evidence of the horse in Ancient Egypt. It was probably brought by the Hyksos invaders. This horse had a wedge-shaped head, large eye socket and small muzzle, all characteristics of the Arabian horse. 
Following the Hijra in A.D. 622 (also sometimes spelled Hegira), the Arabian horse spread across the known world of the time, became recognized as a distinct, named breed,[82] and played a significant role in the History of the Middle East and of Islam. By A.D. 630, Muslim influence expanded across the Middle East and North Africa. By A.D. 711, Muslim warriors had reached Spain, and controlled most of the Iberian Peninsula by 720. Their mounts were of various oriental types, including both Arabians and the Barb horse of North Africa.[citation needed]
Another way Arabian horses spread to the rest of the world was through the Ottoman Empire, which rose in 1299, and came to control much of the Middle East. Though it never fully dominated the heart of the Arabian Peninsula, this Turkish empire obtained many Arabian horses through trade, diplomacy and war. The Ottomans ecouraged the formation of private stud farms in their territories in order to ensure a supply of calvalry horses. Ottoman nobility, such as Muhammad Ali of Egypt also collected pure, desert-bred Arabian horses. An early record of importations and horses occurs with the stud farm of El Naseri, or Al-Nasir Muhammad, an Egyptian Sultan (1290-1342) who imported and bred numerous Arabians in Egypt. A record was made of his purchases, which describes many of the horses as well as their abilities. The record was deposited in his library, forming a source for later study. During his time, an early anatomical study of Arabian horses was also conducted, with several Arabic anatomical diagrams of Arabian horses surviving in manuscripts today.
From the Middle East to Europe
There were some ways the Arabian horse reached Europe .Muslim invasions and during the Crusades, beginning in 1095, European armies invaded Palestine and many knights returned home with Arabian horses as spoils of war. As the knights and the heavy, armored war horses who carried them became obsolete, Arabian horses and their descendants were used to develop faster, agile light cavalry horses that were used in warfare into the 20th century. Probably the earliest horses with Arabian bloodlines to enter Europe came indirectly, through Spain and France. Others would have arrived with returning Crusaders. Under the Ottoman Empire, Arabian horses often were sold, traded, or given as diplomatic gifts to Europeans and, later, to Americans. 
One major infusion of Arabian horses into Europe occurred when the Ottoman Turks sent 300,000 horsemen into Hungary in A.D. 1522. Many Turks were mounted on pure-blooded Arabians, captured during raids into Arabia. By 1529, the Ottomans reached Vienna, where they were stopped by the Polish and Hungarian armies, who captured Arabians from the defeated Ottoman cavalry. Some of these horses provided foundation stock for the major studs of Eastern Europe. 
Polish and Russian breeding programs
With the rise of light cavalry, the stamina and agility of horses with Arabian blood gave an enormous military advantage to any army who possessed them. Thus, many European monarchs began to support large breeding establishments that crossed Arabians on local stock. One example was Knyszyna, the royal stud of Polish king Zygmunt II August, and another was the Imperial Russian Stud of Peter the Great. 
European horse breeders also obtained Arabian stock directly from the desert or via trade with the Ottomans. For example, Count Alexey Orlov of Russia obtained many Arabians, including Smetanka, an Arabian stallion who was a foundation sire of the Orlov trotter.[89][90] Orlov provided Arabian horses to Catherine the Great, who in 1772 owned 12 pure Arabian stallions and 10 mares. To meet the need to breed Arabians as a source of pure bloodstock, two members of the Russian nobility, Count Stroganov and Prince Shcherbatov, established Arabian stud farms by 1889. 
Notable imports from Arabia to Poland included those of Prince Hieronymous Sanguszko (1743-1812), who founded the Slawuta stud. Poland's first state-run Arabian stud farm, Janow Podlaski, was established by the decree of Alexander I of Russia in 1817. By 1850, the great stud farms of Poland were well-established, including Antoniny, owned by the Polish Count Potocki (who had married into the Sanguszko family); later notable as the farm that produced the stallion Skowronek
The rise of the Crabbet Park Stud
Perhaps the most famous of all Arabian breeding operations founded in Europe was the Crabbet Park Stud of England, founded 1878. Starting in 1877, Wilfrid Scawen Blunt and Lady Anne Blunt made repeated journeys to the Middle East, including visits to the stud of Ali Pasha Sherif in Egypt and to Bedouin tribes in the Nejd, bringing the best Arabians they could find to England. Lady Anne also purchased and maintained the Sheykh Obeyd stud farm in Egypt, near Cairo. Upon Lady Anne's death in 1917, the Blunts' daughter, Judith, Lady Wentworth, inherited the Wentworth title and Lady Anne's portion of the estate. She obtained the remainder of the Crabbet Stud following a protracted legal battle with her father, Wilfrid. Lady Wentworth expanded the stud, added new bloodstock, and exported Arabian horses worldwide. Upon Lady Wentworth's death in 1957, the stud passed to her manager, Cecil Covey, who ran Crabbet until 1971, when a motorway was cut through the property, forcing the sale of the land and dispersal of the horses.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

The severe desert conditions surrounding the Euphrates and Tigris rives would have guaranteed that the unique ancestors of the Arabian evolved in an isolated environment with little or no influence from other breeds..neither able to wonder far nor other breeds wander in.. Only with human influence later in history was there opportunity for breeding inlux..

he origin of the Arabian horse remains a great zoological mystery. Although this unique breed has had a distinctive national identity for centuries, its history nevertheless is full of subtleties, complexities and contradictions. It defies simple interpretation.

When we first encounter the Arabian, or the prototype of what is known today as the Arabian, he is somewhat smaller than his counterpart today. Otherwise he has essentially remained unchanged throughout the centuries.

Authorities are at odds about where the Arabian horse originated. The subject is hazardous, for archaeologists' spades and shifting sands of time are constantly unsettling previously established thinking. There are certain arguments for the ancestral Arabian having been a wild horse in northern Syria, southern Turkey and possibly the piedmont regions to the east as well. The area along the northern edge of the Fertile Crescent comprising part of Iraq and running along the Euphrates and west across Sinai and along the coast to Egypt, offered a mild climate and enough rain to provide an ideal environment for horses. Other historians suggest this unique breed originated in the southwestern part of Arabia, offering supporting evidence that the three great river beds in this area provided natural wild pastures and were the centers in which Arabian horses appeared as undomesticated creatures to the early inhabitants of southwestern Arabia.

Because the interior of the Arabian peninsula has been dry for approximately 10,000 years, it would have been difficult, if not impossible, for horses to exist in that arid land without the aid of man. The domestication of the camel in about 3500 B.C. provided the Bedouins (nomadic inhabitants of the middle east desert regions) with means of transport and sustenance needed to survive the perils of life in central Arabia, an area into which they ventured about 2500 B.C. At that time they took with them the prototype of the modern Arabian horse.

There can be little dispute, however, that the Arabian horse has proved to be, throughout recorded history, an original breed-which remains to this very day.

Neither sacred nor profane history tells us the country where the horse was first domesticated, or whether he was first used for work or riding. He probably was used for both purposes in very early times and in various parts of the world. We know that by 1500 B.C. the people of the east had obtained great mastery over their hot-blooded horses which were the forerunners of the breed which eventually became known as "Arabian."

About 3500 years ago the hot-blooded horse assumed the role of king-maker in the east, including the valley of the Nile and beyond, changing human history and the face of the world. Through him the Egyptians were made aware of the vast world beyond their own borders. The Pharaohs were able to extend the Egyptian empire by harnessing the horse to their chariots and relying on his power and courage. With his help, societies of such distant lands as the Indus Valley civilizations were united with Mesopotamian cultures. The empires of the Hurrians, Hittites, Kassites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians and others rose and fell under his thundering hooves. His strength made possible the initial concepts of a cooperative universal society, such as the Roman empire. The Arabian "pony express" shrank space, accelerated communications and linked empires together throughout the eastern world.

This awe-inspiring horse of the east appears on seal rings, stone pillars and various monuments with regularity after the 16th century B.C. Egyptian hieroglyphics proclaim his value; Old Testament writings are filled with references to his might and strength. Other writings talk of the creation of the Arabian, "thou shallst fly without wings and conquer without swords." King Solomon some 900 years B.C. eulogized the beauty of "a company of horses in Pharaoh's chariots," while in 490 B.C. the famous Greek horseman, Xinophon proclaimed: "A noble animal which exhibits itself in all its beauty is something so lovely and wonderful that it fascinates young and old alike." But whence came the "Arabian horse?" We have seen this same horse for many centuries before the word "Arab" was ever used or implied as a race of people or species of horse.

The origin of the word "Arab" is still obscure. A popular concept links the word with nomadism, connecting it with the Hebrew "Arabha," dark land or steppe land, also with the Hebrew "Erebh," mixed and hence organized as opposed to organized and ordered life of the sedentary communities, or with the root "Abhar"-to move or pass. "Arab" is a Semitic word meaning "desert" or the inhabitant thereof, with no reference to nationality. In the Koran a'rab is used for Bedouins (nomadic desert dwellers) and the first certain instance of its Biblical use as a proper name occurs in Jer. 25:24: "Kings of Arabia," Jeremiah having lived between 626 and 586 B.C. The Arabs themselves seem to have used the word at an early date to distinguish the Bedouin from the Arabic-speaking town dwellers.

This hot blooded horse which had flourished under the Semitic people of the east now reached its zenith of fame as the horse of the "Arabas." The Bedouin horse breeders were fanatic about keeping the blood of their desert steeds absolutely pure, and through line-breeding and inbreeding, celebrated strains evolved which were particularly prized for distinguishing characteristics and qualities. The mare evolved as the Bedouin's most treasured possession. The harsh desert environment ensured that only the strongest and keenest horse survived, and it was responsible for many of the physical characteristics distinguishing the breed to this day.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Druydess, if you are just going to copy and paste long articles from elsewhere why not give people a link and a source?


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

An interesting bit about the strains, and why Arabians vary in look and "type" so much. Some people turn up their noses to anything that doesn't meet "their" preconception of what an Arabian "looks" like and has it in their head that only one ideal is a "real" Arabian. Each strain from the typiest to the plainest, bred for different characteristics, all remain pure Arabians. All of my Arabians exhibit characteristics of different strains. 

Each strain, when bred pure, developed characteristics that could be recognized and identified. The Kehilan strain was noted for depth of chest, masculine power and size. The average pure in strain Kehilan stood up to 15 hands. Their heads were short with broad foreheads and great width in the jowls. Most common colors were gray and chestnut.

The Seglawi was known for refinement and almost feminine elegance. This strain was more likely to be fast rather than have great endurance. Seglawi horses have fine bone, longer faces and necks than the Kehilan. The average height for a Seglawi would be 14.2 hands, the most common color Bay.

The Abeyan strain is very similar to the Seglawi. They tended to be refined. The pure in strain Abeyan would often have a longer back than a typical Arabian. They were small horses, seldom above 14.2 hands, commonly gray and carried more white markings than other strains.

Hamdani horses were often considered plain, with an athletic if somewhat masculine, large boned build. Their heads were more often straight in profile, lacking an extreme Jibbah. The Hamdani strain was one of the largest, standing as much as 15.2 hands. The common colors were gray and bay.

The Hadban strain was a smaller version of the Hamdani. Sharing several traits including big bone and muscular build. They were also known for possessing an extremely gentle nature. The average height of a Hadban was 14.3 hands, the primary color brown or bay with few if any white markings.


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

The only reason to give a rip about bloodlines is breeding. If you don't breed or, in the case of geldings can't breed, bloodline is nothing more than a bragging point.

What makes any horse great is the way in which he or she relates to his or her rider.

I am not a fan of Arabians. I don't care for that whole arched neck thing therefore Khemosabi means about as much to me as Kohlrabi. I understand this information might be important to a portion of the horsepeople population but for us Hillbilly Hollow-esque folk, it means diddly.

I love Appaloosas. If the horse is spotty, sparse in the mane and tail and can shoot a good appy stinkeye, I don't care what sire did the nasty with what mare.

Hi, I'm coffeegod. My ride is a Percheron/Thoroughbred nurse mare foal throwaway named Hugo, who is perfect for me.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

coffeegod said:


> The only reason to give a rip about bloodlines is breeding. If you don't breed or, in the case of geldings can't breed, bloodline is nothing more than a bragging point.
> 
> What makes any horse great is the way in which he or she relates to his or her rider.
> 
> ...



LOL wow......


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> LOL wow......




Yeah, I ranted. Please pardon me. My BIL recently acquired a 17 year old full Arabian gelding who was something of a reining champ in the Arabian horseshow circuit back in the day. All I hear is 'blahblahblah....Khemosabi was his grandsire...blahblahblah....my horse's bloodlines...blahblahblah..." Facebook updates of 'I just looked up my horse's bloodline and he's a rockstar!'


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

coffeegod said:


> Yeah, I ranted. Please pardon me. My BIL recently acquired a 17 year old full Arabian gelding who was something of a reining champ in the Arabian horseshow circuit back in the day. All I hear is 'blahblahblah....Khemosabi was his grandsire...blahblahblah....my horse's bloodlines...blahblahblah..." Facebook updates of 'I just looked up my horse's bloodline and he's a rockstar!'



Everyone thinks their horse is the best kin of like their kids


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

coffeegod said:


> I love Appaloosas. If the horse is spotty, sparse in the mane and tail and can shoot a good appy stinkeye, I don't care what sire did the nasty with what mare.


Personally I prefer my spotted creatures to have a reasonable mane and tail.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

coffeegod said:


> I love Appaloosas. If the horse is spotty, sparse in the mane and tail and can shoot a good appy stinkeye, I don't care what sire did the nasty with what mare.


Haha...I'm not sure I would go that far, but I'll take an Appy any day...

Speaking of which, I assume you do know pictures of "Appys" were drawn on cave walls 20,000 years ago. Of course they weren't contemporary Appys, but they were LP dudes nonetheless - probably had Appytude, too. I wonder why there were no drawings of "Arabs" back then? 

Perhaps Jean Claude Oog was a far better artist than Abu Bin Oog. Or perhaps the French branch of the Oog clan ate all but the spotted horses, holding them sacred. 

Come to think of it, if we go by documented evidence, I guess we could say it's very possible Arabs were developed from Appys. I wonder how long it took those desert folk to breed out the spots?


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

coffeegod said:


> The only reason to give a rip about bloodlines is breeding. If you don't breed or, in the case of geldings can't breed, bloodline is nothing more than a bragging point.
> 
> What makes any horse great is the way in which he or she relates to his or her rider.
> 
> ...


Nothing wrong with any of that Coffegod.. you are 100% correct- the way the horse relates to the rider is what makes them great..


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

Well, this has been a very interesting thread. Quite a lot of good reading.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

coffeegod said:


> I love Appaloosas. If the horse is spotty, sparse in the mane and tail and can shoot a good appy stinkeye, I don't care what sire did the nasty with what mare.


I don't like Appys for the same reason: spots. I also don't like paints much (even though I own one), Perchies, Gypsy Vanners, etc. List may go on. Just not my cup of tea  However I do enjoy looking at the horse when that horse (any breed and any color) has a correct confirmation and muscles. 

I do think knowing the lines can help even if you don't breed. In particularly it may give a hint on what your horse can excel in (even though it's not absolute of course). I also think that learning breeds (as well as learning anything else) = educating yourself about something (even if you won't need it for living). which is a very positive thing IMHO. 

So personally I found the whole discussion to be interesting.

P.S. I still like Akhal Tekes over Arabs though....!


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> I don't like Appys for the same reason: spots. I also don't like paints much (even though I own one), Perchies, Gypsy Vanners, etc. List may go on. Just not my cup of tea  However I do enjoy looking at the horse when that horse (any breed and any color) has a correct confirmation and muscles.
> 
> I do think knowing the lines can help even if you don't breed. In particularly it may give a hint on what your horse can excel in (even though it's not absolute of course). I also think that learning breeds (as well as learning anything else) = educating yourself about something (even if you won't need it for living). which is a very positive thing IMHO.
> 
> ...


I had an appy rescue she was so flighty horrible spooky had alot of white in her eyes always I now wont look twice at a horse with all that white some reason I associate that with her spooky nature dunno why dunno if its a legit reason, but I cant get past it.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

"I don't care what sire did the nasty with what mare.

I'm coffeegod."

What if I served you Walmart brand coffee?


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

It is interesting to look at different body types and conformation, and the competing theories of this adaptation. Some believe there are four prototypes which were separate species or subspecies, while others believe they are all same species, with different physical traits. 

In addition to the Tarpan, thought to be the predecessor of modern horse, now extinct..three other subspecies are thought to have existed:

The "Warmblood” subspecies the “Forest Horse” (once proposed as Equus ferus silvaticus, also called the Diluvial Horse), which evolved into a later variety sometimes called Equus ferus germanicus. This prototype may have contributed to the development of the Warmbloods of Europe and heavy horses such as the Ardennais.

The "Draft" subspecies, a small, sturdy, heavyset animal with a heavy hair coat, arising in northern Europe, adapted to cold, damp climates, akin to today’s Draft Breeds and Shetlands.

The “Oriental” subspecies, (once proposed as Equus agilis) a taller, slim, refined and agile animal arising in western Asia adapted to hot, dry climates, thought to be the progenitor of the modern Arabian and the Akhal-Teke. 

The only two wild horses that has survived to modern time and domestication is the Przewalski's horse (Equus ferus przewalski), and the Tarpan. Although researchers such as Maria Gumbutas theorized that the horses of the Chalcolithic period were Przewalski's, more recent genetic studies indicate that Przewalski's horse is not an ancestor to modern domesticated horses. Other subspecies of Equus ferus, appear to have existed and could have been the stock from which domesticated horses are descended. 
In addition, unlike all other horses today, Przewalkski horses have an additional set of chromosomes, which may support that they are indeed a different species..


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

I visited the Denver Zoo over 20 years ago and they had a pair of Przewalkski horses on loan from somewhere. It was awesome to see them! Made the whole trip worthwhile.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Celeste said:


> I visited the Denver Zoo over 20 years ago and they had a pair of Przewalkski horses on loan from somewhere. It was awesome to see them! Made the whole trip worthwhile.


Incredible! Would love to see them someday. I believe their numbers are around 1500 now..


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Wow! I didn't know there were that few left.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Celeste said:


> Wow! I didn't know there were that few left.


That was the last number I'd read, hopefully it's more now.. They are planning new breeding programs to reintroduce them to the wild again.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

None left in the wild?


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Some have been introduced in Mongolia and Russia- The Ukraine has a pretty good breeding/preservation program.
Just found it:

The world population of these horses are all descended from 9 of the 31 horses in captivity in 1945. These nine horses were mostly descended from approximately 15 captured around 1900. A cooperative venture between the Zoological Society of London and Mongolian scientists has resulted in successful reintroduction of these horses from zoos into their natural habitat in Mongolia; and as of 2005 there is a free-ranging population of 248 animals in the wild. The total number of these horses according to a 2005 census was about 1,500.
ZSL Living Conservation, December 19, 2005


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Dang. So they have such a genetic bottleneck that the are in a very precarious position even if it were not for the low numbers.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

A bit OT - But how can you find out what strain an Arab is? I'm sure I remember reading on my boys papers under strain 'Ah Kehailan Rodan' (Not sure on spelling, that was how it sounded to my 11yo brain when I memorised his papers lol) but I can't find his original papers and it isn't on the online studbook...


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

wild_spot said:


> A bit OT - But how can you find out what strain an Arab is? I'm sure I remember reading on my boys papers under strain 'Ah Kehailan Rodan' (Not sure on spelling, that was how it sounded to my 11yo brain when I memorised his papers lol) but I can't find his original papers and it isn't on the online studbook...


It's possible he's of Kehilan strain.. would take one who researches pedigrees to be sure..or you can search his bloodlines yourself - eventually it should point you to his strain(s)..


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Celeste said:


> Wow! I didn't know there were that few left.


Yep. I actually believe less than 1500 from what I read while back.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

I had forgotten to mention with regard to the Przewalski horse, their tail and mane fall off and re-grow each year, which also may point to a different origin..

I found that intriguing..


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

Cool! I never knew that.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Celeste said:


> Cool! I never knew that.


I was quite surprised by it as well..


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

Celeste said:


> "I don't care what sire did the nasty with what mare.
> 
> I'm coffeegod."
> 
> What if I served you Walmart brand coffee?


Gotta tell you, there is very little wrong with WallyWorld's coffee. McDonalds has a great cup o' joe as well.

I do find your argument a bit grammar school playground but whatever floats your boat.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Celeste said:


> Dang. So they have such a genetic bottleneck that the are in a very precarious position even if it were not for the low numbers.


A definite genetic bottleneck... to think they nearly died out..


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

With such small numbers, they are still in a very precarious position. Are there any in the United States? The pair that I saw in Denver were on loan; I don't know of any others.


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## HGEsquire (Feb 21, 2010)

Wow ~ there is *A LOT* for me to catch up on. Hoping to learn yet even more and that there are education pieces to this new/split thread. Goodness.....

Denise Gainey


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

This thread is loaded with information!


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## HGEsquire (Feb 21, 2010)

It does appear that way....

Denise Gainey


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

HGEsquire said:


> Wow ~ there is *A LOT* for me to catch up on. Hoping to learn yet even more and that there are education pieces to this new/split thread. Goodness.....
> 
> Denise Gainey


Hope you add to it Denise!


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

An interesting commentary by the daughter of Lady Wentworth..

Memories of the Crabbet Stud

by Lady Anne Lytton

(reprinted from The Arabian Horse Journal, August 1963, Vol. 6, No. 2)
Appearing in The Crabbet Influence Spring-Summer 1998 issue

As a small child the names of my great-greatgrandfather Byron, the poet, my great-grandfather Bulwer Lytton, the novelist, left me strangely unimpressed; but the mention of MESAOUD, PHAROAH, SHERIFA, QUEEN OF SHEBA and others was quite a different story.

QUEEN OF SHEBA died the year I was born, 1901, and MESAOUD was sold in 1903. I wish I could say that I remember him, but alas I do not, although I recall episodes when I was under three years old. I do remember many of the first descendants of the famous ones, and the most outstanding was NEFISA, the great dam of 21 foals, the best being NEJRAN and NEJIBA by AZREK, NARGHILEH and NADIR by MESAOUD, NAWAB by ASTRALED, NASRA (a most beautiful mare) by DAOUD. Her last foal, a filly NUEYNA also by DAOUD was born in 1912. 1 can well recall my grandmother (Lady Anne Blunt) saying "this is her 21st foal" NEFISA died in 1913 aged 27. Her stock seems to have been rather bigger as a rule than the average Arab at Crabbet. According to Crabbet studbook records, two at least, by MESAOUD, NAREUK and NARKISE were well over 15 hands at maturity, and from a picture the former was a fine horse, very true to type. I wish I could have seen MESAOUD, and in my view his combined beauty of type and conformation exceeded anything else of his day or during the whole of my youth, and the only horse who approached him in perfection, quality and balance was RASIM. Dare I say that I preferred RASIM to the Polish-bred SKOWRONEK.

AZREK is another I wish I had seen. Lady Anne Blunt describes him in her studbook thus: "A grey with very black points and black mane and tail (at 7 years) after - and became white and fleabitten. A magnificent horse in every way, grand head and neck, powerful shoulder, with unrivaled trotting action. Seen approaching at the trot one saw underneath the hoof. Enormous strength of back and quarter, up to any weight. Tail set very high and splendidly carried. Legs absolute perfection, the sinews literally like steel to the touch. Great speed and impossible to tire. His stock superior to any other." Not much over 14 hands, he measured 7 and 7/8ths below the knee. After her lyrical description of this unique horse, one learns that he was sold to the Cape of Good Hope. How terrible to contemplate!

PHAROAH I feel I have seen, for my grandmother's life-sized oil painting of him hung in the drawing room at Crabbet and must have been a perfect likeness. The reproduction on the cover of "The Authentic Arabian" by Lady Wentworth was from a watercolour copy painted by myself, and therefore less valuable as a record.

AHMAR was another stallion I wish I had known. He was a brilliant bay and appears to have had splendid action and a very beautiful head. He is entered as having a "black line on quarter." He was sold too as was also that typical and lovely grey horse SEYAL. A very beautiful and now unknown horse ROALA was sold at the age of four and he was certainly a great loss. Another horse I greatly regret leaving the country was SHAHWAN, exported to America in 1895. 1 hope there are descendants of this horse, who appears to have been quite as beautiful as SKOWRONEK and of the same pure white. SHERIFA is of course legendary with a head of such beauty of shape and quality that it was renowned even in the desert. It has been drawn to perfection by Lady Anne, and SHERIFA's skull set up by her also was in its glass case here. It is now on permanent loan to the Equine Research Station at Balaton Lodge, Newmarket, where it has been properly mounted, and the rather fragile bones treated to preserve them.

My grandparents seemed bent on selling many of the most precious Arabs they had been at such pains to obtain. SHERIFA had few foals, and all in turn were sold, but by great good fortune the blood of her daughter SHEMSE by PHAROAH has been preserved through a mare called SHEEBA, purchased by Sydney Hough. This mare was by BEN AZREK whose sire was AZREK. SHEEBA's dam RIAD goes back to HAGAR through the sire and to KARS through her dam, and therefore combines some very precious blood which has been handed on, the champion MIKENO being a direct descendant. He was out of NURSCHIDA (bred by Lady Yule) by NURI SHERIF who was out of SHEEBA, her dam SHEMSE out of SHERIFA. I have two fillies by MIKENO, and Mrs. Linney has my MIFARIA's colt EL MELUK by him, and I hope this blood will be preserved.

Looking back I can remember more bays than any other colour in the Stud. Quite a few of the mares of this colour were rather dull and uninteresting in shape and often had poor quarters and bent hocks, and not a few had plain heads. It is a mistake, I think, to assume that the early descendants of the first importations all had perfect shape and the highest quality. I have always thought that the really beautiful heads were rather rare compared to the less distinguished rather ordinary types. This may well have been partly due to some distortion caused by worm infestation in the young colts and fillies, more in the latter because they are not brought in and cared for the way colts are. It is a fact that starvation in children causes their heads to grow abnormally large, and it certainly is the case with horses, judging from my experience. There seemed to be no way of coping with bloodworms and according to entries in the studbooks, quite a few foals and yearlings died of worms; and compared to the present day, the mortality among young horses was high.

As I said, bays were more common than chestnuts, fleabitten greys quite numerous, several browns; chestnuts came next to bays in numbers, and when Lady Wentworth took over the Stud I think she found that the quality among the chestnuts was usually much higher, with a few notable exceptions. At the time of her death there was not a bay left at Crabbet. She was not very fond of bays, or I think FERDA would never have left the Stud. This was my mare and I loved her especially because she was a bay, but that is a digression!

One of the earliest mares to impress her personality on me was MESAOUD's daughter SHIBINE, a rather big chestnut mare with a very strong will, and not very well schooled. I was placed on her back when I was six, and she bolted at once with me. I can remember my terror lest she should leap over a very high gate with perpendicular heaven.wo

In an interview with the Press representative of the Pall Mall Gazette July 12th 1893, Wilfrid Blunt says this of the Arab: "I make it a rule now, after much experience, never to buy unless at first glimpse of the animal walking by, I have felt a certain almost electric thrill, the sense of sudden admiration. The thrill of course may deceive you on a nearer inspection, for you may discover defects, but without it, and the power of thus 'striking the eye' an Arab horse can hardly be of first quality. He may be speedy, he may be sound, he may be useful, but he can hardly be the horse to breed from." That is, I think, the essence of a true Arab. Of such was NASIK and before him IBN YASHMAK - a horse that impressed me greatly in my youth-all fire and beauty, but with very few defects. He was foaled in Egypt by FEYSUL out of YASHMAK by SHAHWAN out of YEMAMA. His sire FEYSUL while being only 13-3 nevertheless measured 8 inches below the knee.

The best-looking mares I remember as a child were RAMLA, RIADA, and KARINA. I had much to do with these three. The fleabitten greys BUKRA and BEREYDA, and afterwards KIBLA, I remember only as broodmares in the stud. RAMLA was, I think, only part broken, judging by her behaviour, and she would be brought in from a field blown out with grass and could not therefore be girthed up firmly, so in order to keep the saddle straight, a crupper was added, which she took strong exception to and would kick in frenzied bouts. Even now I can almost see the ground as it appeared before her vanished head. I would hold on to everything but did not enjoy it at all. RIADA gave me the first perfect ride I ever had, and she was sweet and gentle. I loved her dappled brown colour and the black penciling of her nostrils below the tan. My grandmother taught me to drive her, and that was a great joy to me. RIADA was by MESAOUD out of ROSEMARY. The awful tragedy of her death is something I do not like to think of even now. I watched her die of twisted gut in agony- that sweet and gentle mare.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

KARINA must have been the prettiest chestnut daughter of FEYSUL, and she remains in my mind because my grandfather drove her everywhere, and we sometimes had expeditions to the Downs on Chantonbury Ring, about 14 miles from Newbuildings and she would take that great climb of about 800 feet at a non-stop trot and canter. She died either at the beginning or during the first World War and was buried in quick lime quite close to this house. Her skeleton was to have been sent to some museum in America but it was never done. I know the very spot, but now it seems better to leave it where it lies.

When we were children my grandfather used to ride a small bay mare ABLA by MESAOUD out of ASFURA. He taught her to walk faster than any horse I have known -we had to run to keep pace with her. He would take her round the woods and fields or in Worth Forest, and she was quite tireless. At other times we rode with him, and he even put my sister and myself on three and four year old stallions while he rode ABLA. This was quite an adventure which I enjoyed, being blissfully unaware of any dangers, but my sister was less horse-minded and therefore somewhat scared, but also very courageous of and we survived these adventures without mishap.

Certain horses I recall for different reasons. RIJM because of his size he was 15-3 when fully matured, and compared to the quality and beauty of the best, he was undoubtedly coarse, as I have described. He was beautifully schooled to saddle, and whatever his faults his head perhaps the worst-he sired some fine stock, his fillies being better than his colts. By way of contrast there was the dark bay BERK with his superb action which has been handed down very persistently to his descendants. He was a bit flimsy, with very light bone, but his blood has been most valuable.

ASTRALED and RUSTEM made an impression because they had no white marks with their very dark bay and brown colour. The FERIDA line might have been noted for straight profiles. FELUKA and FEJR (chestnuts) I recall well, and my bay FERDA, had a fairly straight head too, though not unpleasant.

Among the horses we used were the "near sisters" BELKIS and BALIS. BELKIS was by SEYAL out of BEREYDA and BALIS by SEYAL out of BUKRA. The former was also a half sister to the Endurance Test winner BELKA who was by RIJM. Incidentally BEREYDA and BUKRA were full sisters by AHMAR out of BOZRA. BELKIS was the most beautiful of the three and BELKA probably the strongest. BELKIS was my father's favorite mare and he could make her perform at dressage-though it was not called that. She and BALIS were driven as a pair, and were most spectacular in harness.

I could go on far longer about these early horses but I have said enough for the present. My opinion is that the general standard is higher now than in the early days, and our very best are probably even better than the best ones of the past, but these are always rare. At present there are not many-the Crabbet Stud has still the great ORAN; and that masterpiece of Lady Wentworth's breeding, INDIAN MAGIC, a big horse with perfect type; as well as one or two very promising young colts, the best a yearling of very great beauty by SILVER VANITY. Mrs. Linney has MIKENO and his son EL MELUK out of my ORAN mare MIFARIA. Then there is Miss Wolf's BLUE DOMINO bred by Miss Yule, who has proved himself to be an outstanding sire, and his son MANTO from my mare MIFARIA. MANTO is a horse of great strength and equal quality, due, no doubt, to the ORAN blood; and BLUE DOMINO's other Junior Champion son BLUE MAGIC from an INDIAN MAGIC mare, showing the same strength of limb. The only other really outstanding stallion (not counting colts under three years old) is a son of GENERAL GRANT by RAKTHA, GENERAL DORSAZ. A few Polish Arabs have been imported to England, and if used in the right way they should help our blood greatly. Two very lovely mares are Miss Lindsay's KARRAMBA and Mr. Hutching's TRYPOLITANKA. As I have already said, I bought from Miss Lindsay the fine colt GROJEC by COMET, of whom I expect great things.



Original note by Gladys Brown Edwards:

The foregoing was written by Lady Anne Lytton on my request and I am sure it will be of great interest to everyone having Arabians tracing to Crabbet bloodlines ... and most American Arabians do, even though some may have only one such line.

Lady Anne Lytton is the daughter of Lady Wentworth and accordingly the granddaughter of Lady Anne and Wilfrid Blunt, founders of the world-famous Crabbet Park Stud in England. Lady Anne Lytton owns the Blunt Arabian Stud, on the grounds of the old "Newbuildings" place, and her stallion MANTO is a joy to behold. A dark liver chestnut, he is the essence of type and quality. The name of the Crabbet Stud itself was taken over by Cecil Covey, former manager of Crabbet before Lady Wentworth's death, and he is the lucky owner of the magnificent stallions and mares so long identified with Crabbet. Their progeny and descendants still dominate English shows.

Of the horses mentioned by Lady Anne, most need no introduction, but others are less well known. For instance RIADA was the dam of RAYYA, who produced *RASEYN. I have never felt that AZREK was given his due in the usual histories with their emphasis on MESAOUD, MAHRUSS and the like, so it was gratifying to see this report by Lady Anne Blunt herself, crediting that stallion not only for his ability to trot (the main reason he is remembered, now) but also for other good points. RAMLA certainly eventually became well broken, for she won one of the U.S. Official Endurance Rides here, and of course having lost her "grass belly" needed no crupper. The Polish colt GROJEC was Reserve Junior Champion at the 1962 Kempton Park horse show (all-Arabian); MANTO was second to SILVER VANITY in an entry of 18 stallions; KARRAMBA won the senior mare class (and NAWARRA, another Polish mare, was second).

I'm very proud that some of these very horses grace my Arabians' pedigrees..


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

> I'm very proud that some of these very horses grace my Arabians' pedigrees..


You do, I hope, realize that the same can be said for nearly every horse in any breed, regardless of how well or poorly bred?

Heck, I can trace Brandy back to Go Man Go:










Man O' War:










Eclipse:










And yes, even the Goldophin Arabian:










And the Darley Arabian:












....as can nearly every other Quarter Horse, and probably most Thoroughbreds, too....and Paints, and Appaloosas, and any other TB-derived or -infused breed. Having "old greats" in the pedigree is so common that it's nearly a necessity (where do all horses come from, anyway?), and many nags of all breeds come from such once-famous bloodlines.

That's where the Foundation Quarter Horse people, and many other breeders (if you read back through some of my quotes, you'll see that Blunt talks about the exact same problem with the Bedouins), got into trouble--by assuming that good bloodlines means a good horse. It doesn't. Virtually all horses once descended from good bloodlines, at some point or another, and virtually all horses will have a big name (or more) if you trace their pedigree back far enough. If the horse doesn't resemble its pedigree, or if it can't perform, or if the last horse that really made a name for itself is several generations back....the papers don't mean squat.

In Brandy's case, while she _is_ lightning fast, I rather doubt she'd have the endurance, size, or soundness to win much of anything on the track, though her pedigree says she should and she was bred for that purpose....


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Silver Vanity, one of my mares' predecessors in the aforementioned article was a favorite and stamped his get well..

*Silver Vanity 22555, foaled in 1950, was imported by Bazy Tankersley and Charles Prange in 1962 (the same year Dr. H. F. Kale imported *Serafix's full brother, *Silver Drift 23494.) He was a gray son of Oran (Riffal x Astrella) x Silver Gilt (Indian Gold x Silver Fire). Oran was the principal stallion used after the second world war, and was actually bred by Hanstead stud out of entirely non-Skowronek blood. Silver Gilt (*Silver Vanity's dam) produced 13 registered foals in England, five of whom became British National Champions. 


Silver Vanity was to make a profound mark not only on the United States Arabian breed, but also in both in Australia and in his native country of England.
*Silver Vanity was twice British National Champion in 1958 and 1962, and left 18 registered get in England prior to his importation to the United States. In England, his son Hanif (x Sirella by Dargee) sired Haroun, who was Reserve Supreme Champion on three occasions before becoming Supreme Male Champion in 1974.
Hanif ,when bred to his half sister Sirella, sired *Shatir Ahs 305929, who went on to become an Israeli champion stallion before his U.S. importation. On this continent, he was 1984 Canadian Top Ten Stallion, and 1984 Top Ten Scottsdale stallion. I saw Shatir shortly after his arrival at the 1983 World Crabbet Symposium in Denver, CO. I remember him to be a tall, reachy liver chestnut stallion with a beautiful face and lovely movement.
Hanif's presence in the aged stallion class at the British Nationals was for years a tradition that many will remember, as he strutted and roared his presence on the grounds, always to the admiration and applause of the crowds. I was fortunate enough to witness Hanif in this display at each British Nationals that I attended.
*Silver Vanity's daughter, Silver Ripple (x Risseefa), produced 1982 British Reserve National Champion Silver Flame, and Silver Vanity's son Shalwan (x Shalina) was Supreme Champion in South Africa.
In the United States, *Silver Vanity alternated stud seasons between Charles Prange's farm in Pennsylvania and Al-Marah, which was then located in Barnesville, Maryland. In 1970, he was sold to F. Lynn and Barbara J. Artress of California. They relocated to Georgia where *Silver Vanity died in 1979 at the age of 29.
*Silver Vanity sired 206 get in the U.S., 41 of which became champions. Some of his most notable daughters are: *Al-Marah Silver Silwa (x *Silwa) who was a halter champion; *Sharafa (x Sharfina) who produced six champions, notably *George Washington; *Silver Pearl (x *Perle D or) a halter and English pleasure champion, and *Silvanetta, twice British Reserve National Champion (1962 British Reserve Champion Foal and 1963 British Reserve Junior Champion Female) who in turn produced three champions in America, including U.S. Top Ten Pleasure Driving Mare Baskanetta (by *Bask).
Other notable Silver Vanity sons are: 1967 U.S. National Champion Western Pleasure horse Al Marah Silver Sparrow (x *Blue Millet); Royal Vanity (x Al-Marah Rallentando) who was 1973 Canadian Reserve National Champion Western Pleasure and Top Ten Native Costume; Vanity's Count (x Perihan Bint Dorsaz) was 1976 U.S. Top Ten Western Pleasure horse, and BL Majestic Gold (x Al-Marah Sola Mia)1984 U.S. Reserve National Champion Native Costume.
Vanity's Count himself sired over 38 Class A Champions, 11 Regional Top Fives, and for years was the leading sire of winners at the Ohio Buckeye show. Royal Vanity went onto sire 1983 US Reserve National Champion Western Pleasure JOTR RV Golden Vanity. The Silver Vanity son Indian Silver, (x *Taheki) sired 1984 U.S. Top Ten Informal Combination and Pleasure Driving BL Indian Velvet.


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> You do, I hope, realize that the same can be said for nearly every horse in any breed, regardless of how well or poorly bred?


Butbutbut....these are ARABIANS!!! That's not just any horse!

I really want a sarcasm font.....


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Another Predecessor, and one of the most influential sires in history:

*RAFFLES 952
*Raffles 952, foaled in 1926, was imported by Roger Selby in 1932. *Raffles is considered one of the most important stallions ever to come to the United States. His prepotence was due to the fact that he was inbred, a product of his sire, Skowronek put to his own daughter, *Rifala.


Inbreeding often leads to a loss in size, but it also tends to concentrate the best features (and sometimes worse) of an individual. In *Raffles case, he stood 13.3 hands while his dam *Rifala was 13.2. His prepotence to pass on his inbred qualities made him a highly successful sire.
Skowronek, the sire of *Raffles, was a cornerstone sire of the Arabian breed and considered quite prepotent as a sire. Although Skowronek was bred by Count Jozef Potocki's Antoniny Stud in Poland, it wasn't until Lady Wentworth obtained him at age 12 and used him on her Crabbet mares that his breeding reputation was made.
But *Raffles didn't start out as a successful sire, in fact, he was sold from Crabbet Park because he proved sterile. He was still sterile for five years after arriving at Selby's. It was Mr. Selby's stud manager, Jimmy Dean, who is credited for reviving Raffles fertility at the age of 11, primarily through the use of exercise.
*Raffles sired horses of beauty, particularly in the head, with overall refinement, good movement (some were brilliant movers), and very good dispositions. His get were not usually known for their size, but were many were taller than their sire. Often their one drawback was that they tended to lack defined withers.
Raffles sired 61 sons and 62 daughters, a total of 123 get. Most of his get had enormous influence themselves in either the show ring or in the breeding barn, and are much too numerous to mention individually. Some of his best known sons are: Geym 2363 (x Rageyma) a very successful son; Indraff 1575 (x *Indaia) the foundation sire for Al-Marah Arabians; Aarief 3717 (x Aarah) a foundation sire for Lasma Arabians; Rasraff 2365 (x *Rasmina) who did well as a stock horse; Sotep 8385 (x Zareyna) a very popular sire; Rapture 3783 (x Rafla); Handeyraff 3940 (x Hanadina); Azraff 5596 (x *Azja IV) one of his best known sons and Tut Ankh Amen 3830 (x *Roda).
Some of his best known daughters are Cassandra 3831 (x Rodetta); My Bonnie Nylon 3832 (x Joharah); Rose Marie 4168 (x Rodetta), Aarafa 2872 (x Aarah), Flaia 3378 (x *Indaia) and Scheraffa 3938 (x Scheherazade).
*Raffles survived a broken leg in 1949 at age 23, and after his recovery, was sold to Alice Payne of Whittier, CA. *Raffles died May 11, 1953 at the age of 27.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

*MIRAGE, pure white 14.2 hands "Seglawi Jedran of Dalia, the most prized of the Seglawi strains," foaled in 1909.
English Champion, Richmond Royal Show, 1926. American Champion, National Arabian Show, Nashville, 1934, at the age of 25, a most unique honor for a horse of such remarkable age. Only one other horse, Mr. Selby's mare, Champion Rifala, holds the same record of being both a British and American Champion. Died in 1939.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

And for the Gainey Tribe.. 

Ferzon, an amazing stallion whose blood also runs in my mares' veins..

Ferzon (Ferneyn x Fersara, by Ferseyn) 1952 Grey Arabian Stallion. 
The McCoys promptly put a $10,000 price ticket on Ferzon's head, never dreaming that anyone would come up with that kind of money in the early 1950s when the average yearly salary was well under $5000.

McCoy showed Ferzon himself and walked away with a many ribbons while bringing distinction to Ferzon and his close equine relatives in California. For instance, on March 29, 1953, Ferzon was named reserve Champion stallion at the Palm Desert, California, First Annual All Arabian Show. At the same show Ferneyn, Ferzon's sire, took the grand championship. Moneyna, the dam of Ferneyn, was named reserve champion mare, while Hasa, a half sister to Ferneyn by Ferseyn, was the grand champion mare. This show was the beginning of clear evidence that the influence of Ferseyn was to be felt for a long time.

Then came Daniel Gainey, Sr, with $10,000 to purchase Ferzon and to produce a distinctive look to Arabians that many people now call the Gainey-look. Mr. Gainey showed Ferzon lightly as a two year old and a three year old, although Ferzon no longer placed as spectacularly as he had during his yearling season.

In the breeding shed at Gainey Fountainhead Arabians, Ferzon produced 251 registered Purebred offspring and was the the grandsire of 7616 registered purebred get. Among the better known offspring of Ferzon, we can name BF Rageymazon, Gaffizon, BuZahr, Shar Mar Ferzay, Gazon (sire of Raffon), Perlezon (sire of Arn-ett Perlane), Comar Raffdan, Comar Rafeymon, Comar Regal, Gai Ferzon Louis, and most notably Gai Parada. Gai Parada was to take over the role of chief sire from his deceased sire at Fountainhead Arabians. In the year 2000, the Gai Parada son, Gai Monarch, won the Canadian Nationals Grand Championship, and appears to spell an influential return to favor of the old foundation lines produced by the many sons of Skowronek (Crabbet Stud, England) as a well-deserved source of Arabian blood.

Ferzon died in 1982 at thirty years of age.


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## Ebzeenah (Aug 3, 2011)

Druydess said:


> And for the Gainey Tribe..
> 
> Ferzon, an amazing stallion whose blood also runs in my mares' veins..
> 
> ...


 
Wow! Kierra has lines to Ferzon and Skowronek, Raffles, Nazeer, Naseem, Silver Drift and The Real McCoy:

Aaa Fans Kierra Arabian

Now how cool is that! Sure glad she picked us to love....

Although I know very little about bloodlines, it does not suprise me to find that she comes from Arab "royalty". She is incredibly smart and not only does whatever you ask of her, she does it WELL. They broke the mold when they created that mare.


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## Ebzeenah (Aug 3, 2011)

I guess falling in love with Ebzeenah was a stroke of luck as well:

Ebzeenah Arabian


Morafic: Morafic - Arabian Stallion - Historical Photo

Ronek: Arieana Arabians - Heritage Notebook: R (Ronek)

The second picture of Ronek on the above page looks just like Ebzeenah when she gets all full of herself and starts prancing around. I think it is really cool that he was double registered as an Arabian and in the Thoroughbred Jockey Club. Now if I can just figure out how to keep her nice black coat to keep from fading in the brutal Florida sun!


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## Deslumbrar (Jul 31, 2011)

Not to offend you guys... but MOST decent Arabs currently around trace back to a majority of the foundations and are closely related to other significant sires as well.

I am enjoying the pedigree talk though, so dont think Im trying to off you at all. Its just kinda like all the people that are flipping out and announcing they own a granddaughter of Secretariat - there are SOOOOOOOO many of them its a silly thing to be hyped about unless she was a track star as well. Ive seen three newspaper articles on Secretariat granddaughters being rescued this summer alone, on three different horses.

And the Arabs youre both talking about are far enough back that its a common find in most Arabian pedigrees.

Please carry on with the pretty ponies


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Some history of the Spanish Arabian- much more rare as the Spanish were extremely selective in their breeding and not many were brought to the US. Every, or most Arabians does not have these bloodlines. My Echo Magnifficcoo daughter, who is over half Spanish has been a very interesting horse to research.. will posts some of her ancestors later..

Spain was occupied by the Moors who brought with them not only their culture and their architecture, but also their ancestral breeding techniques, giving the most important part to the selection of the broodmares.

Spain discovered these prestigious little war horses : Arabian horses.In fact, the Moors would leave a large number of them at their departure. They would put their mark on the Iberian Peninsula and contribute to the creation of new breeds : Andalusian , Lisutaniens, and Lippizans. (breed created from horses imported in Yougoslavia in 1580)

Expansion of the pure bred Arabian from the 15th to the 18th century:

The Army, convinced by its qualities as a sire, breed improver, war mount, racing horse, made the Arabian horse one of its fundamental piliar and wouldn’t let anybody else control its development. New “Arabians from the desert” were bought or confiscated as war loot by the nomade tribes which, having preserved a very sharp sense of breeding, regularly came to improve and regenerate the Spanish Arabian bloodlines. However, the Army authorized the private breeders to use some stallions for their own mares.
The first permanent stallion depot was created in Cordoba in 1834.
The Yeguada Militar, which headquarters were in Jerez de la Frontera, created in 1847 the “Spanish Arabian Stud Book”,
the first record of purebred Arabian horses. (the first one in the world)

The first recorded Arabians were horses imported from the desert and owned by Queen Isabel II who took an active part in the establishment of this register. The first horse registered was ABAYOUL, a dark-bay stallion. The following importations from the desert were organised, first on the Spanish gouvernement's behalf, and then by the Duke San Carlos, and finally by the General Marchesi, but the contribution of this new blood was particularly intended to improve the existing breeds.

The first volume of the Spanish Arabian Stud Book, which started in 1847, was published in 1885, but none of the first Arabians' bloodlines would survive. In 1893, the Yeguada Militar settled in Cordoba. They were depending of the Ministry of War. The army imposed a very strict control over the registration in the Stud book (certificate of origin and proof of the excellence of the bloodline), the horses imported from the desert were not accepted unless they were coming from certain parts of the desert or certain tribes that had proved themselves. However, facing increasing difficulties to find good breeding stock in the desert, the army decided to establish in Spain a serious purebred Arabian breeding program. They had at their disposal few stud farms and few stallions stations. The Yeguada Militar only preserved the best stallions, selected after a presentation in front of senior officers, and the best mares : the one producing good males (the main objective being the use of the Arabian as a war horse); the other ones were leased or sold by auction to private breeders. 

Commissions of veterinaries and officers were regularly sent into the desert and later to other parts of the globe in search of the best root stock of purebred Arabian and, that is, ameliorate constantly the quality of the Spanish breeding stock…


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## Ebzeenah (Aug 3, 2011)

Deslumbrar said:


> Not to offend you guys... but MOST decent Arabs currently around trace back to a majority of the foundations and are closely related to other significant sires as well.
> 
> I am enjoying the pedigree talk though, so dont think Im trying to off you at all. Its just kinda like all the people that are flipping out and announcing they own a granddaughter of Secretariat - there are SOOOOOOOO many of them its a silly thing to be hyped about unless she was a track star as well. Ive seen three newspaper articles on Secretariat granddaughters being rescued this summer alone, on three different horses.
> 
> ...


No offence taken! We love our babies even if they come from no-name nags! It is a bit uncanny though that our Kierra shares a second generation bloodline with a new mare we just purchased and we didn't know that until after we decided to purchase her. It might be coincidence, or it might be that we noticed some similarities between the two. Like I said before, we love them all no matter what! Thanks so much for your input.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

The first pure Spanish Arabian private breeder was the Marquis de Domecq in 1910, who bought back few stallions not used by the Yeguada Militar, but the only importations made by private breeders were the work of the brothers Guerrero.
From 1920, two new private breeders started to breed pure Arabian stock and would have a significant influence on the Spanish breeding stock:
The name of Don José Maria De Ybarra, whose son Luis would take over, is still associated today to the pure Spanish Arabian breeding
breeder of CONGO, SHERIF, GANDHY GANDHY, ABOUKIR, GOMARA GOMARA, TRIANA.

Don Cristobal Colon ( descendant of Christopher Colombus in direct line),better known as the Duke of Veragua , bought back all mares of the Marquis de Domecq after the death of the later in 1921 ( EUTERPE, BENI AMER, FIANZA , etc... ) 

During this short period of time, the Duke of Veragua brought a very important, unfading and personal touch to the pure Spanish Arabian breeding. Passioned by the pure Arabian, he was constantly obsessed by improving constantly the genetic heritage of his horses; he was ready to wander through the whole world for it.

In 1926, he imported from the Clark's Courthouse Arabian Stud (England) the stallions AJLUN , SHADRACK and the beautiful and impetuous RAZADA, sire of NANA SAHIB and KASHMIR.

In 1929, he bought the stallion SIRIO III, , sire of SIRIO IV , born at the Marquis de Domecq’s. 
In 1930, he bought 5 daughters of Skowronek to Lady Wentworth , Crabbet Park (England), one of the world most outstanding figure of the pure Arabian horse breeding. We can find these mares in many Spanish pedigrees.
SHELIFA 
( out of Selima) 
NAMIRA 
(out of Nessima ) 
NASIEDA 
(out of Nasra )	
REYNA 
( out of Rissla )
And the gorgeous 
JALILA (out of Rasima )

In 1934, he bought from Lady Wentworth the mare INSILLA .( out of Naseem )


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

The Spanish Civil war created an environment of isolation and no new Arabians were imported, thus breeding was kept pure,

Isolation of Spain in 1939

The end of the Civil War marked an important step in the Spanish Arabian breeding. 
The Yeguada Militar collected all the best stallions who had survived the war and bought some others to private breeders, especially to Luis Ybarra who sold them Soliman, Aboukir, Sherif, Congo.

The army decided to stop importing new blood lines.
From now on, Spain was going to live in isolation for few decades and the Purebred Spanish Arabian will not change in its type. The only important acquisitions during this period were 2 mares given as a present to General Franco by King Abdullah of Jordan in 1949 : Saklauia Yadran (dam of Betonica ,Jacericina) and El Yadidia. Few mares were also imported from Portugal, Germany or the United Kingdom between 1970 and 1980, the stallion Cranleigh Karim was imported from England in 1973.


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

The aforementioned Congo:

Horsemen can differ remarkably when it comes to judging superiority of horseflesh. Each of us, because we are individuals, judges from a personal set of criteria. Yet now and then, we come to an agreement on a certain horse. So it is when horse-lovers think of Congo – never beaten in a race, renowned for his beauty, progenitor of Zancudo and Tabal. 
Congo was foaled in 1941 at La Cascajara, the ranch of Don Jose Maria Ybarra, one of Spain’s preeminent breeders. (Senior Ybarra gave us Gandhy and Tabal, also.) Congo’s sire was Illustre, son of Seanderich, a proud Saklawi imported into Spain in 1908 who founded one of the two principal lines pervasive in Spanish breeding today. It has been said to the point of cliché that Seanderich offspring produce true to type even after six generations. Today, Seanderich offspring predominate in numbers. Perhaps as important as his prepotency are the desert attributes preserved through his Spanish Arabian descendants – speed, stamina, intelligence and courage. Lady Donna Maria Paz Murga Igual (the Condesa de Balalcazar) has called the Seanderich line “the best of the stallion lines.” But Congo also boasts Ursus blood through his dam, Triana (x Facina), a successful nick merging the breed’s foundational lines. 

My Echo daughter has multiple lines to Congo, Zancudo, Seanderich, and Illustre- and there is a difference in the breeding subtleties...

Congo:









Zancudo:


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Since we're Copy/Pasting. 

Caspian Horses: 
An Ancient Lineage

Research into the history and origin of this elegant horse proved the ancient lineage of the Caspian. It was identified, as a royal breed previously thought long extinct.

Through examination and research of ancient Persian ar*chaeological remains, along with blood type, bone struc*ture and genetic testing, the Caspian was found to be the forerunner of Persia's native wild horses. *It was used to develop the ancient Arabian by the Mesopotamians in the 3rd millennium BC. * Identification of the Caspian was aided by several of its unique features such as its blood hemoglobin composition and its skeletal structure.

The rediscovery of the Cas*pian and the archaeological and scientific research it inspired have offered solid and convinc*ing proof of the origin of the hot blooded, Near Eastern horse. As Louise Firouz states, "Iran's position at the cross*roads of the earliest human in migrations with the lush pas*tures of the Elburz and Zabros mountains and plentiful water, put her in the unique position of having all the natural ele*ments for being the first to selectively breed horses for different uses and specific characteristics. " With findings from cave diggings made in Iran in 1949, Carleton **** discovered remains, which proved that the horse was in Iran in the Mesolithic period. This finding refuted the pre*viously held belief that horses were not native to Iran, but was introduced by Indo-Eu*ropeans in the 3rd or early 2nd millennium BC.

Small wild horses roamed the district of Persia around Kermanshah, now known as Bakhatran, in west central Iran. The most common theory of the horse's presence around Kermanshah is that many species were swept southward before glaciers, re*treating to warmer climates. After the glaciers melted, many species returned to their former northern habitats, but some remained within fixed geographical areas forming isolated breeding groups with distinctive genetic character*istics. This would account for the very early isolated pocket of Caspians in ancient Persia in the Zabras near Kermanshah.

Timotheas of Gaza, writing in the 6th century AD, stated that a small breed of horse was then being raised in the area of Kermanshah: "The horses of the Medes are of moderate size with small ears and heads unlike those of a horse.” The typical, ancient large horse to which he would have com*pared this breed was substantially smaller than an average sized modem horse, and was Roman-nosed. This horse of moderate size would have been a small horse with a head unlike the Roman-nosed Nisaean horse, in other words, a small, dish-headed horse, *the Caspian.

The Caspian can no longer be found in the Kermanshah region, only in the Elburz Mountains south of the Cas*pian Sea. A probable explana*tion of the Caspians presence in the Elburz Mountains is suggested by the wanderings and settlement of a native Ira*nian tribe. Noel, in 1921 Geo*graphic journal writes: "The natives of the Kaler Dasht are a tribe that originally brought over from Kermnanshah and they breed ponies." It is notewor*thy that no true "ponies" have been located in the Kaler Dasht, a foothills region of the Elburz Mountains, only small horses, the Caspian.

So the Caspian found ref*uge in the Elburz Mountains at the southern Caspian sea*shore. The preservation and purity of the breed was due to this fortunate circumstance. In the interven*ing centuries, the small Cas*pian horse ran wild or was cap*tured and bred as a workhorse in this remote mountainous region. Local villagers referred to these horses as "Mouleki" or "Pouseki".

Upon her discovery and survey of the Caspians in the region, Louise Firouz com*mented: "That they are so distinctively peculiar to one small region leads one to be*lieve that they were system*atically bred for a purpose at one time. Their remarkable characteristics come through so clearly that they are prob*ably throw-backs to a strongly dominant breed." Archaeology can help understand the pur*pose for which the Caspian was systematically bred as a pureblood breed.

Research has demon*strated that the Caspian is de*picted in ancient Persian statu*ettes, friezes and writings go*ing back to 3000 BC. The most famous artifacts are the stone frieze on the eastern staircase of the Palace of Persepolis (the "Lydian Horses"); the trilingual seal of King Darius the Great (possessed by the British Museum); and the Gold Oxus Treasure of Darabgird, which depicts four tiny horses pulling a ceremonial chariot, dating back to the sixth or fifth century BC.

King Darius I, of the Achaemenid dynasty estab*lished in Persia by Cyrus the Great of biblical fame, came to power in 550 BC. The seal of King Darius the Great is of particular interest. The small horses pictured have several of the physical characteristics of the Caspian - slim legs, con*cave faces and small ears. As a public ritual demonstration of their fitness to rule, Persian Kings killed captured lions, which were brought into amphitheaters and released. At this event, which the seal of King Darius portrays, the small size of the horses pulling the chariot is worthy of note. The idea horses were purposely down sized for spe*cial considerations on the seal, or for stylized artistic interpre*tation, has been refuted. The horses necessarily were small for fast maneuvering at high speeds in a confined space. For this particular ceremony, Caspians would have been the premier choice due to their ac*celeration, small size and agil*ity. Such characteristics were highly prized by King Darius and his royal successors.

The later, Sasanid dynasty, maintained the Old Zoroas*trian order with its ancient royal investiture ceremonies. The rock relieve at Naqsh-e-*Rostam in Iran, which depicts the 224 AD investiture of Ardashir 1, the first Sasanid king, shows the king on a small horse with slim legs and small ears. Though he is mounted, the king's feet are almost touching the ground.

The last king of the Sasanid dynasty was Yazdegerd III. He was defeated by the followers in Islam at the battle of al-Qadisiyah on the Euphrates River in 637 AD. This was not long after Timotheus of Gaza, quoted above. This Arab inva*sion made a break with the Persian Zoroastrian past and traditions, which had included a prominent place for the Cas*pian horse. The new Islamic rulers had no use for the royal investiture ceremonies. Their authority was derived from the Caliph, rather than from a dy*nasty that had ritually to prove its prowess in chariots drawn by Caspians.

So from 3,000 BC to 637 AD, there is a historical conti*nuity for the small, refined pre*Archamaenian horse. After that there were doubtless some records or inventories made of the horses in Persia, but the great libraries suc*cumbed to repeated raids and invasions by the Moslems and the Mongols over the centu*ries. In this way the fate of the royal horse became a mystery for over 1300 years.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

History Of The Caspian Horse : The Caspian Horse Society of the Americas

Here's the longer article--I won't copy and paste because I don't want to be obnoxious, and people can go and read for themselves if they are so inclined, rather than being bombasted with a continuous stream of arresting, eye-numbing text (I only pasted before so I could highlight certain specific points of interest). I, for one, find this fascinating--I'd never heard of the history before. Thanks for bringing my attention to it, MsB!




























(Interestingly, looking at pictures on Google Images, a lot of them seem to have the same [bad] hind end.)


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Thanks for posting the Caspian info. As I said way back on page 3, Arabians are neither the beginning nor the end. They are an intermediate breed just as all others. And as an intermediate breed, other breeds don't trace their roots TO Arabians - they trace them THROUGH Arabians. There is absolutely nothing "original" about the breed... it certainly didn't morph spontaneously out of thin air - it is just one link in the evolutionary chain of most modern breeds...


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

The strict breeding practices of the Spanish explains why there are far fewer Spanish Arabians, as the consistent breeding produced thereof:


Requirements for Registration by the Cria Caballar for the REGISTRO-MATRICULA - The Spanish Stud-Book

There are two forms of registration by the YM : 1) Resena – simple, which consists of : species, gender, name; state of genital organs; race, sub race, variety; coat color with noticeable markings; age; height or size; brand; use or possible service; date of identification (resena).
The second is called Resena complicada and is used only for those horses(males) which are destined for reproduction or when there might be a question as to the identity of the horse (male). These consist of 49 detailed measurements and observations on the horse’s conformation: 14 on the head alone. 11 on the forelegs and hooves, 4 on the hindlegs and hooves, 2 on the chest,1 each on the neck, withers, shoulder, ribs, back, loin, croup, flank, overall hindquarters (no hip specifications),musculature, robustness, testicles, movement, docility, spirit, breed, aptitude and classification.
The height is measured in the military manner of "cuartas and dedos" and in meters and millimeters. If the horse does not fall within the categories required as a reproducing equine he is not classified as being "apto" (apt) for reproduction and will not be used as such. Hence if not apt for reproduction, the horse is not eligible for registration in the Registro-Matricula Studbook, as the Spanish Stud-Book is a registry for reproducing horses only. As foals they hold temporary registration in the appendix. At 4 years of age when considered adult the foals are transferred to the Official Registry as mares or stallions. If the stallion is to be used as a reproducer he must be inspected as such with the "resena complicada". If he does not pass, he does not breed. If he is gelded, he is dropped from the Registro-Matricula Studbook, as he is not a reproducer. To avoid this happening, many breeders including the YM , do not request breeding certificates until the horses are much older and more developed--knowing that the Arabian is slower to develop than the PRE (for which the rules were made). This is often the reason that many Arabian stallions are not used until much later in their lives and why there are so few geldings. No matter how incredible a performance horse a gelding may be, placed in the correct hands, if he has been gelded, no longer actively registered, he may not be registered in another country nor participate in shows requiring registration. Hence he cannot be exported or shown. The new Sport Horse Registro-Matricula Studbook may solve this discrepancy in registration of gelded Arabians.
One must realize that the stringent regulations and time sequence which the Cria Caballar use to judge their national horse, the Andalusian (P.R.E.) are in no way applied to the breeding of purebred Arabians. Whereas all PRE must pass the inspections at the completion of 3 years whether privately or state bred, the Arabians do not have this requirement. However, they must pass the resena complicada in order to breed.
Without the Certificate of Breeding Permission granted by the Cria Caballar and inspection by officers of the Yeguada Militar, a stallion either privately or state owned/bred is not allowed to propagate in Spain. Some stallions will be allowed to breed privately only (within the owner’s broodmare band only). Some are permitted to breed publicly within their own race/breed. Some are allowed to breed publicly part-breds or grade non-papered horses or donkeys only. The highest classification is to be able to breed publicly all breeds. Although there is no registry for Half-Arabians, there is acknowledgement of half-papered progeny. In Spain, all breeding is strictly supervised.


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## Ebzeenah (Aug 3, 2011)

Druydess said:


> *MIRAGE, pure white 14.2 hands "Seglawi Jedran of Dalia, the most prized of the Seglawi strains," foaled in 1909.
> English Champion, Richmond Royal Show, 1926. American Champion, National Arabian Show, Nashville, 1934, at the age of 25, a most unique honor for a horse of such remarkable age. Only one other horse, Mr. Selby's mare, Champion Rifala, holds the same record of being both a British and American Champion. Died in 1939.


That's so cool. Kierra has Mirage in her bloodline, too. I think I stumbled on some Spanish in there also a while back, but I'll have to check on that. I swear I love this mare more and more every day. What is really cool is how she mothers Zena as if she were her own foal. I couldn't ask for a better teacher for Zena than Kierra. We've got breeder friends that relly want us to breed her, but I couldn't take the chance with her being older. I'd never forgive myself if something happened to her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I think it is has been pointed out multiple times, that many, many, many horses have these horses in their pedigrees and that it shouldn't be a surprise... Of course most horses in a breed are going to trace back to a select few at some point in time.


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## Ebzeenah (Aug 3, 2011)

Now where are my manners! Yes, MsB, thanks for the cool article. I remember the Caspian from my research long ago when I was a kid. Since I couldn't have my own horse back then, riding lessons, Breyer horses, and researching/learning everything I could about different breeds was how I got my "fix". But back then I spent hours at the library as we didn't have computers to be able to "Google" things at our fingertips. Of course this was also back when dinosaurs roamed the earth! Lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

In researching my double Padron mare, I found information on Barich De Washoe, a Spanish Arabian, extremely interesting. He was almost overlooked for breeding, but once started, produced exceptional foals.










"*Barich had some of the things my Skowronek mares lacked," says McDannald. "He had tremendous strength in the the loin, a real nice hip, and very good coupling.--which is the real strength of the Spanish horses. 
The first year at BruMarBa, Bruce broke *Barich to ride, and won the Western Pleasure championship at Salem, OR, with him. "He was a really nice horse to work with, and learned easily. But since I was a public trainer back then, was nearly 20 stallions between our own stallions and outside horses, we were always willing and able to lease one out." And Paul McDannald of Missouri was all too glad to take one in particular. "*Barich had some of the things my Skowronek mares lacked," says McDannald. "He had tremendous strength in the the loin, a real nice hip, and very good coupling.--which is the real strength of the Spanish horses. But we went to *Barich because we liked him, not necessarily because he was Spanish. " 
*Barich stood at the McDannalds' for three years, breeding 15 outside mares and three or four of the McDannalds mares each year. His stud fee was $1,000. "He sired some super breeding mares here, and many, many champions. I still have one daughter, Touch of Spanish (x Expectation by Victor Hugo)," says McDannald. "I showed her at halter 12-15 times and she was either Champion or Reserve Champion every time out. The only horse that ever beat her was another Pure Spanish mare we had at the time. 

"*Barich was a very nice horse, with an outstanding disposition. He was a real handy to have around and pleasant to handle. My children, who help me in all aspects of the business, were quite young when *Barich was here, and I trusted him completely. But, of course, I trust all the stallions here, because if I can't, they're geldings," says McDannald. "All in all, I think *Barich has done more to promote the Spanish Arabian than any other horse ever imported." 

Meanwhile, *Barich's first BruMarBa foal crop had arrived. "And then we realized what we had," says Bruce. From that first crop, came La Tres (x Bint Elibn Mirage by Ibn Mirage), a Canadian Top Ten Mare, and to this day one of Bruce's favorites. 

For the next three years, *Barich spent half the breeding season at BruMarBa, and the other half at Bill and Mary Ann Hughes' Will Mar Arabians in Chino, CA. "We thought he was absolutely beautiful over the topline," says Mary Ann, "and all of his offspring were very strong there too. He was big and bold, and he had a great personality, but I fell for his Spanish eyes. My kids could lead him around with just a lead rope---he was just a big gentle guy, more of a family pet than a breeding stallion. We'd hop on him bareback and just ride him around. " 

The first of the Hugheses' *Barich get was a colt named WillMarGrande (x Bint Latseyna). He was also the first one they showed, winning 1980 Region 1 Reserve Champion gelding. Another *Barich gelding owned by Will Mar, WM Barcelona (x Bint Sapphire by Comar Bay Beau), was U.S National Top ten futurity Gelding in 1983. "He's been winning championships in driving this year with Bill in Open classes," says Mary Ann. 
"Our pure Spanish *Barich daughters are being bred back to Spanish sires such as *An Malik (Galero x Ispahan) and *Aram (Bambu x Corteza), while we are breeding *Barich's half Spanish daughters to Polish stallions. We have one in foal to Zodiac Matador, and others may be bred to our *Bask/*Aladdinn son." 

In 1979, *Barich came home to BruMarBa's Garden Valley, CA, facility for good, and in the years that followed, he found his niche at BruMarBa. "His nick with the Comar Bay Beau daughters was the answer," says Bruce. "He shortened the coupling and added inches to the legs, especially with the little Skowronek mares. He gave them snort and blow, which is what we needed. Our horses all had good conformation (to me, Beau was the perfect horse), but *Barich put a certain showiness into his foals." 


One of the most striking things about the *Barich foals is their uniformity. It doesn't take much imagination to guess the outcome of a given mating. "We wanted an inbred of a different line---that strength of pedigree to breed with our linebred mares," says Bruce. "As it turns out, the poorer mares of a bloodline breed as well with *Barich as the best of that bloodline, which means that his strength is coming through the blending of the blood. But, of course, that's hybrid vigor--the crossing of two different inbred lines. " 
After Bruce and Gerry saw the great consistency and the prettiness that *Barich was throwing, they went to Spain to research his pedigree, finding that there was nothing bred quite like him. They returned 13 times, subsequently importing several pure Spanish horses, including the handsome *Vallehermoso (Procyn x Betelgeuse by Tabal), who is being used on BruMarBa's *Barich daughters. 

*Barich was bred by Luis De Ybarra's La Cascajera Stud, Seyville, Spain. He is the product of a 7/8ths brother-sister mating, with Zurich and *Aldebaran II both being sired by Malvito, and out of daughters of the mare Uganda. *Barich's sire, Zurich, left only one foal crop before his accidental death. "He was a very strong and athletic grey stallion, with a nice head and good way of moving," remembers Ybarra. "And Zurich's sire, Malvito, was one of the most beautiful stallions in Spain. Although small, he was very strong as well, with a very beautiful head and neck. He was very Arabic, with an extremely nice topline and wide chest. *Barich's dam, *Aldebaran II, was a big bay mare, very strong with gigantic eyes."


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I do love caspians, and it's extremely interesting to find out they are the reasons arabs exist. Adorable horses, I'd love to own one


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

A few more of him... I can see why he produced foals with such substance..


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Quite honestly, Caspians aren't my type. Were I looking for an "Oriental-type" horse, I really think I'd have to see about importing some (good) Marwaris/Kathiawaris!










I didn't realize until recently that they are gaited, and are considered good dressage and jumping horses.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> Quite honestly, they aren't my type. Were I looking for an "Oriental-type" horse, I really think I'd have to see about importing some (good) Marwaris/Kathiawaris!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw two of those when I was over there. The ears are fantastic! Great minds on them too!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I'll take this one in pinto, please!










Love this one, too.










And their native costume is just stunning:


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I love the native costumes. Heavy, thick, and hand crafted. you can tell they take care to hand craft everything


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Quite honestly, Caspians aren't my type. Were I looking for an "Oriental-type" horse, I really think I'd have to see about importing some (good) Marwaris/Kathiawaris!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Yuck those horses do nothing for me imo they look like freaks.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

I hope India gets the breed numbers back and starts exporting them. I'd love to see them over here, I can't imagine how awesome a breed show would be!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Yuck those horses do nothing for me imo they look like freaks.


Spoken like a true expert with no sense of cultural bias!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Another horse breed that I find fascinating is the Akhal Teke, which also looks like to be a horse breed that contributed to the making of the Arabian breed. 

There is a lot of really good information on this site about them (starting with the history on this link and going from there) - Akhal Teke: A Differentiated View - The Primeval Oriental


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Another horse breed that I find fascinating is the Akhal Teke, which also looks like to be a horse breed that contributed to the making of the Arabian breed.
> 
> There is a lot of really good information on this site about them (starting with the history on this link and going from there) - Akhal Teke: A Differentiated View - The Primeval Oriental


I've always thought they were such a neat breed.The shine to their coat is awesome.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

The Akhal-Teke has had influence on many breeds, possibly including the Thoroughbred through the Byerly Turk (which may have been Akhal-Teke, an Arabian or a Turkoman Horse), one of the three foundation stallions of the breed. Three other stallions, known as the "Lister Turk", the "White Turk" and the "Yellow Turk" also contributed to the foundation of the Thoroughbred breed.[8] The Trakehner has also been influenced by the Akhal-Teke, most notably by the stallion Turkmen-Atti, as have the Russian breeds Don, Budyonny, Karabair, and Karabakh.

Very cool.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Actually, LMPQH, there _is_ something _genetic and unique_ to the Akhal Teke's coat.

Metallic Sheen as observed in the Akhal-Teke breed


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Conservation of the Rare Horse Breeds of the World Not sure how current that list is, but it's very interesting to see


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I do like the marwari but I really love the Manipuri (bred further north in India) It is less likely to be gaited and is credited to be the first polo ponies in India. Small, agile and with the nifty ears.


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## Ebzeenah (Aug 3, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> Another horse breed that I find fascinating is the Akhal Teke, which also looks like to be a horse breed that contributed to the making of the Arabian breed.
> 
> There is a lot of really good information on this site about them (starting with the history on this link and going from there) - Akhal Teke: A Differentiated View - The Primeval Oriental


I hope you realize you were reading my mind. I had this Sckoolastic book on horse breeds of the world and I've always liked them since seeing them in that book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Manipuri Pony Breed Standard

Very, very cool. I'd never heard of them before.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Actually, LMPQH, there _is_ something _genetic and unique_ to the Akhal Teke's coat.
> 
> Metallic Sheen as observed in the Akhal-Teke breed


 
What a cool coat!! Most folks I know (me included) would pay money for something out of a jar to make horses shine like this!!


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

MsBHavin said:


> Manipuri Pony Breed Standard
> 
> Very, very cool. I'd never heard of them before.


What a neat website. Thanks! 

In 1989 I spent a month in India, mostly in the north. I saw many of the ponies there, many pulling carts. They were strong and looked like they were very intelligent. I enjoyed seeing them.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

Allison Finch said:


> What a neat website. Thanks!
> 
> In 1989 I spent a month in India, mostly in the north. I saw many of the ponies there, many pulling carts. They were strong and looked like they were very intelligent. I enjoyed seeing them.


I wanted to travel to India when I was stationed in Bahrain and Dubai, but the military would not allow it  I am extremely jealous!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Never heard of the Manipuri before. Skimming the link, looks as though they are very genetically isolated, almost "primative?" That would explain their diminuitive stature, anyway. They aren't very attractive to look at, but they appear sturdy and steady, and that's worth a lot.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

They do have a primative look. The dun in the first picture looks a lot like a Prewalski's horse. I know that they are not descendants of them, they just have that same primative look.


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

The Norwegian Fjord Horse Registry

Possibly still my favorite pure breed. They are just such sweet hearts!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks for reminding me! I need go contact the lady whose Fjord I'm supposed to be training. She called me the other day and I never got back to her....

I've already ridden the mare once. She's narrower than I'd imagined Fjords being, but supposedly she's well bred, so maybe that is the breed standard. Cute head, very sturdy legs...kind of an odd mover. Not bad, and not rough, just...mincing? The biggest problem I had is that with her being so short, at around 13.3 hands, her back and neck are short as well, and I feel like I'm practically sitting on her head.

I'd say she looks quite a bit like the mare in this picture:


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## MsBHavin (Nov 29, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> Thanks for reminding me! I need go contact the lady whose Fjord I'm supposed to be training. She called me the other day and I never got back to her....
> 
> I've already ridden the mare once. She's narrower than I'd imagined Fjords being, but supposedly she's well bred, so maybe that is the breed standard. Cute head, very sturdy legs...kind of an odd mover. Not bad, and not rough, just...mincing? The biggest problem I had is that with her being so short, at around 13.3 hands, her back and neck are short as well, and I feel like I'm practically sitting on her head.
> 
> I'd say she looks quite a bit like the mare in this picture:


I've got such a soft spot for them! I've got a Fjord breeder on my FB and she's got some AMAZING stallions. When I finally decide where I want to live I plan on buying one (or 4) from her because she really knows her stuff.


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Thought this is interesting esp since we are on the subject of the history of the horse note it doesnt give an exact breed but it does give some cool info . Horses Domesticated 9,000 Years Ago in Saudi Arabia : Discovery News


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I was just doing some looking and I find this guy, Velox











He is my Fancy's 14th generation back ancestor:lol:

Fancy BTW is a registered Haflinger


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

You know, GH, 14th generation ancestor is practically the same as sire. You can really see the resemblence between the two. You are very lucky that your horse is related to such famous ancestors!


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> You know, GH, 14th generation ancestor is practically the same as sire. You can really see the resemblence between the two. You are very lucky that your horse is related to such famous ancestors!



I love history one of my favorite subjects in school and researching horse history is like one of my fave things to read about.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Golden Horse said:


> I was just doing some looking and I find this guy, Velox
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haffies are a relatively recently developed breed.

I have you beat by a bunch. Appys are a very ancient breed. Here we have a depiction of the great broodmare Eohippadina. Note the reverse leopard pattern and the typical varnish marking at the hip...


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Haffies are a relatively recently developed breed.
> 
> I have you beat by a bunch. Appys are a very ancient breed. Here we have a depiction of the great broodmare Eohippadina. Note the reverse leopard pattern and the typical varnish marking at the hip...


Kind of weird looking almost cat like tail and legs


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I knew that they had crossed Arabs onto Tyrolean mares to give the foundation of the breed, but Velox there is an Anglo Arab, I now need to dig further into Alto's past, who knows, maybe Stewie the Moose has TB blood, that makes him a real sports horse right??


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> I knew that they had crossed Arabs onto Tyrolean mares to give the foundation of the breed, but Velox there is an Anglo Arab, I now need to dig further into Alto's past, who knows, maybe Stewie the Moose has TB blood, that makes him a real sports horse right??


Shame old Alto didnt pass his speed onto his foal with Ace lol


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I haven't found any TB blood yet, BUT







I so far have found Friesian, Lipizzaner, Andalusian, Spanish Purebred, so if I could find a Gypsy in there somewhere he will come out farting butterflies, peeing rainbows, and obviously he is waiting for his wings to cook:lol:








​


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> I haven't found any TB blood yet, BUT
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Arent anglo-arab's part tb?


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Golden Horse said:


> I haven't found any TB blood yet, BUT
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't understand - Velox's sire was a TB...you just needed to go back 1 more generation. Alto actually goes all the way back to Eclipse, believe it or not - 4 times that I count off hand, probably more, but I'm not going to explore all the scores of lines, and going back from Eclipse of course you have the Turks and Barbs.

Alto is a celebrity!


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

I'm thinking, actually, given his lineage, that he ought to make an awesome endurance horse. Or put him on the track--he'd probably do either equally well.


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## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> I'm thinking, actually, given his lineage, that he ought to make an awesome endurance horse. Or put him on the track--he'd probably do either equally well.


 
Who? What? I'm confused...........


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Golden Horse's colt. Hey, GH, post a picture! He's really delicate and refined, as all horses should be. Ought to be lightning fast, though.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Now I know what he has Andalusian blood, that explains his well developed neck, and of course the strong Friesian head.










I see a bright future:wink:


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Golden Horse's colt. Hey, GH, post a picture! He's really delicate and refined, as all horses should be. Ought to be lightning fast, though.


Ha I read this and went looking at the Ace thread.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Haha - with Stewie's mix and lineage, he could be a reproduction of the missing link between the primitive breeds and those developed later like the Turks, Barbs, and Arabs. He does remind me of Ayla's horse - perhaps you should have named him Whinny...:lol::lol:


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## Cecelia Roscow (Aug 25, 2011)

HGEsquire said:


> Disclaimer: The discussion below was moved from the http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeding/why-you-breeding-94683/ thread. Thank you!
> Kitten_Val
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, it's true, don't no when people realize this fact though.:wink:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

LuvMyPerlinoQH said:


> Arent anglo-arab's part tb?


Anglo-Arabians are 1/2 Arabian and 1/2 TB.

The AHA recognizes them as an actual breed and registers them as such, not just as Half Arabian.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

Very intertaining to read. Nothing really new, but intertaining.
I have always enjoy how so many people tend to think that the Arabians are the original "pure bred" horse. They just showed up one day (walking out from behind the sand dune into a bedouin camp probably) and said "Here we are. A pure breed of horse and we've selected you lucky people to discover us after the millions of years we've been hiding from you." )

Let's change to over to reality now. The arbian, like every domestic animal we have in this country (no matter how far back you can trace it's blood line) is the product of selective (or in some cases not so selective) breeding.

The closest thing to a "pure" bloodline horse would be the Przewalski's Horse, but I'm not sure that even they are genetically pure and haven't been altered at some point by other domestic pairing in their history. I don't believe they even have the same number of chromosomes as domestic horses.

Anyway, forget the pure blood concept with horses. It doesn't exist and likely has not existed during any part of man's recorded history.

Does make for intertaining reading though *laugh*


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## coffeegod (May 6, 2011)

its lbs not miles said:


> Very intertaining to read. Nothing really new, but intertaining.
> I have always enjoy how so many people tend to think that the Arabians are the original "pure bred" horse. They just showed up one day (walking out from behind the sand dune into a bedouin camp probably) and said "Here we are. A pure breed of horse and we've selected you lucky people to discover us after the millions of years we've been hiding from you." )
> 
> Let's change to over to reality now. The arbian, like every domestic animal we have in this country (no matter how far back you can trace it's blood line) is the product of selective (or in some cases not so selective) breeding.
> ...


Are you married? :wink:

Well said, ilnm, well said.


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## its lbs not miles (Sep 1, 2011)

coffeegod said:


> Are you married? :wink:
> 
> Well said, ilnm, well said.


No, I'm not *laugh*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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