# CAIR vs Wool Flocking



## livestoride

I have heard mixed reviews on the CAIR air panels by Wintec. I have flocking in my current saddle and my husband has the CAIR. I know it is supposed to be better (claimed by the manufacturer, of course) in dispersing weight. Some complaints I have heard is that it feels "bouncy" although I think some if this is in the person's head thinking they are riding on air so it must be bouncy. Also, you can't reflock it, but the air should eliminate the need for that. Anyway...I am currently trying a new wintec dressage pro with countorbloc and if I like it I can order it either way and wasn't sure which was way to go. Any opnions?


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## Clava

You can reflock with wool...I posted this on another thread.



Clava said:


> Inside a Wintec Cair saddle you will find these...and hard cotton wool like lumps of flocking.
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> and just a bit of foam inside the plastic bags
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> They were uneven on my saddle:gasp:
> Except my saddle is now flocked like this...
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> and my saddler put this bit back on it
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## Clava

I think Cair is pretty awful and goes uneven far too easily as well as having bits of balled flocking in there as well.


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## crimsonsky

my saddler was saying he's had quite a few Wintecs/Bates brought to him to have the CAIR panels removed and the saddle reflocked with wool. the CAIR pockets have been known (at least around here/to my knowledge) to "pop" leaving you with a deflated section or side. 

personally, i've never noticed an "bounciness" when i've ridden in my Wintec with CAIR however, overall, it's just my spare/sacrifice saddle so i like the idea that it will adjust to whatever horse i need to put it on. that being said, any of my saddles that are more daily use are wool flocked.


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## bsms

My horses seem to love CAIR. 

I do not. Put me in the category of "Too bouncy". I know there is no reason why it should be that way, but I've had folks ride the saddles without knowing about the CAIR panels, and they made the same complaint. In theory, the air is just at normal atmospheric pressure anyways...although we're at 3800', so maybe THAT makes a difference.

I don't think it is my imagination. I find the stuffed Aussie saddles much more stable. That could be a design issue, tho.


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## crimsonsky

bsms said:


> My horses seem to love CAIR.
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> I do not. Put me in the category of "Too bouncy". I know there is no reason why it should be that way, but I've had folks ride the saddles without knowing about the CAIR panels, and they made the same complaint. In theory, the air is just at normal atmospheric pressure anyways...although we're at 3800', so maybe THAT makes a difference.
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> I don't think it is my imagination. I find the stuffed Aussie saddles much more stable. That could be a design issue, tho.


now i want to go ride in my Wintec again to see if i notice the "bounce" i'm at ~5000' elevation. perhaps that has something to do with it?


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## bsms

The CAIR folks say, "Air is captured at atmospheric pressure in an open-celled foam and sealed in the Air Cushion. Once the air cushion is welded the open-celled foam becomes irrelevant, as it is the air trapped in the cushion, which is doing the work.

At 5,000' MSL, the atmosphere is 83% of sea level, so the panels should be about 20% larger with no one sitting on them. I don't know how that would affect things after you sit on them, but it SEEMS like with would be somewhat overinflated. I noticed the CAIR manufacturer says there isn't a significant change with temperature ("There is minimal affect of temperature on the CAIR® Air Panels. For a 30 degree (Celsius) change in temperature there is approximately 1% change in expansion of the Air Panel."), but leaves altitude unmentioned. Is that because a 20% expansion IS significant? :?


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## waresbear

Sounds all too technical. My husband rides with a Cair wintec, he likes it better than the dressage saddle he used to ride in, but not as much as the Barnsby which was too small for him. I have ridden it once, didn't really notice any difference, other than the saddle was too big for me.


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## livestoride

Hmmm...they didn't offer the flocked version for trial, just the CAIR so I was stuck with it. I think if I like it I may just get the flocked. It isn't that much more money. Will have to try out the saddle first and see if I even like it. The knee blocks are much bigger than I am used to or was expecting.


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## crimsonsky

bsms said:


> The CAIR folks say, "Air is captured at atmospheric pressure in an open-celled foam and sealed in the Air Cushion. Once the air cushion is welded the open-celled foam becomes irrelevant, as it is the air trapped in the cushion, which is doing the work.
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> At 5,000' MSL, the atmosphere is 83% of sea level, so the panels should be about 20% larger with no one sitting on them. I don't know how that would affect things after you sit on them, but it SEEMS like with would be somewhat overinflated. I noticed the CAIR manufacturer says there isn't a significant change with temperature ("There is minimal affect of temperature on the CAIR® Air Panels. For a 30 degree (Celsius) change in temperature there is approximately 1% change in expansion of the Air Panel."), but leaves altitude unmentioned. Is that because a 20% expansion IS significant? :?


VERY good points there!


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## tinyliny

As for that "Bouncing" feeling, I notice when I have used a "gel" pad. It kind of feels wobbly, or , not surprisingly, Gelly-like.


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## waresbear

A good feeling or bad one?


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## ~*~anebel~*~

As well as being obnoxiously bouncy, because the pressure is "evenly" distributed the panels will conform to the horses body and slide around so you have to crank the girth up. I have also seen very few horses who do not have muscle atrophy underneath the panels of the saddles after prolonged use.

It is a money making gimmick and a well fit wool flocked saddle will always fit better. As well as wintecs in general place the pelvis of the rider in an incorrect position, rounding the back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sharpie

I like my Wintec AP with Cair, that said- it's nothing fancy. I mean it to be and use it as a general all purpose saddle. It's not a 'nice' saddle, not one I'd pay big bucks for, but it is durable and comfortable enough to use daily. The really nice saddles I have ridden in have all been real leather with real flocking. I can understand the 'bouncing' comment, even down here at sea level, they do have a different feel.


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## kitten_Val

waresbear said:


> A good feeling or bad one?


I'd say bad. I tried gel half-pads. They feel, well, strange... 

I'm all for wool flocking. You can always re-flock or more flexible in adjusting your saddle to the horse.


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## bsms

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> As well as being obnoxiously bouncy, because the pressure is "evenly" distributed the panels will conform to the horses body and slide around so you have to crank the girth up...


That doesn't describe my experience. I don't like CAIR panels, but the girth pressure is no different than what I use with my Aussie saddles. I don't know if my horses tall withers make a difference. I also never rode them in a demanding sport - have a jump saddle, but have always ridden it for flats only, and fairly undemanding flats at that.

I have only ridden it a few times in the last year...I've been drifting west for several years, and now ride more with a Circle Y than anything else. But if I ever go back to riding English, I'll get the panels stuffed. I agree that it is a money-making gimmick, not a real advance in saddle technology.


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## blue eyed pony

I strongly dislike CAIR. All my saddles are flocked now.

That being said I had a pony that would buck like no tomorrow in a flocked saddle that technically was a good fit - and yet in a CAIR saddle that did not fit, he was a dream. Not sure what that was about.


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## livestoride

Thanks for all the responses  My current Wintec is flocked and with all these opinoins I will stick with the flocking. I haven't had a chance to ride in the saddle yet due to work, but am very excited to try it out. I know that Wintec saddles are not fancy and most people consider them bottom line type saddles, but I am not a fancy person and need a rough and tumble, easy to keep clean saddle for trail rides and endurance. The knee blocks ahve me a little leary on how comfortable the saddle would be after 6 hours.


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## Rachel1786

I have a wintec pro dressage with cair and I don't notice it being any bouncier then riding in my stubben. I have heard that they are meant to be used with then pads and that gel pads can cause a bouncy ride.


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## livestoride

Thanks again everyone! unfortunately Gem was not a happy camper in the trial saddle even after switching the gullet around to fit her. She acted very odd during the ride and at first I thought it was just the overgirth that could not be made tight enough to avoid flapping with her movement and hitting the back of her front legs. I stopped the ride early due to her being so uncomfortable and when I took the saddle off the hair on either side of her withers by her shoulders was all roughed up like I took a brillo pad to it. The saddle must have been rocking and pinching her skin with every stride. I did really like the external knee/thigh blocks, the very wide channel and the narrow twist. On to saddle #4.


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## snootyfox

I (and my horses and the horses of my clients) prefer wool flocking (or even foam) over air panels. Air doesn't absorb concussion hence the bounciness everyone is talking about while wool will absorb concussion. Think about a basketball- the more air you put in the more it will bounce! If the rider can feel a bounce what does the horse feel?

If you can't find a Wintec without the Cair panel look at the Thorowgood synthetic saddle at Dover Saddlery. I think they are more comfortable for both horse and rider as well as being wool flocked and most importantly...less expensive.


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## jumanji321

I had a saddler tell me that CAIR panels can actually concentrate the concussion on to a horse's back because it doesn't spread out as evenly as wool.


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## wild_spot

I work in a tack shop. All of our sponsored riders choose to ride with CAIR on their own horses and clients horses. 

CAIR panels are adjustable - laser cut foam pieces either 4mm or 8mm thick shaped to fit either the front, middle or back of the panels. 

I don't lean one way or the other, but I don't think CAIR is horrible.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## snootyfox

I have been a saddle fit consultant for years and have found that most horses will prefer wool flocking over the Cair panels(yes, the above comment about concentrating the concussion is one of the reasons). I have also found that if given the choice between a Wintec panel shape (under the cantle) which can be a bit pointed and "A" shaped and a Thorowgood panel shape the horses prefer the flatter, broader Thorowgood panel. The Thorowgood is also adjustable with a multiple of gullet plate sizes from regular to XXwide for drafts and wide ponies.

PS I am not a rep for Thorowgood but I still put riders on a budget in them with great results for both horse and rider.


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## bsms

I don't think CAIR is horrible. In fact, if the saddle will regularly be used on a variety of horses, it has some advantages. My horses like it. I find it a bit bouncy feeling, but my horses don't mind.


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## adinteriors

Hi. I am having a REALLY hard time finding a saddle fitter to remove my bates cair panels and replace with wool. Would you please send me your saddlers name? I would REALLY appreciate it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## elleng0728

I have to say that I've ridden in two saddles with CAIR and had no issues with either one. Neither did my horse.


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## snootyfox

adinteriors- I will PM you some contact info. I am not comfortable posting someone's contact info on a public forum without their permission.


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## crimsonsky

adinteriors said:


> Hi. I am having a REALLY hard time finding a saddle fitter to remove my bates cair panels and replace with wool. Would you please send me your saddlers name? I would REALLY appreciate it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


where are you located? that might help.


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## churumbeque

I would contact the manufacturer and have them do it if it is even possible. Or sell it and start over


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## crimsonsky

churumbeque said:


> I would contact the manufacturer and have them do it if it is even possible. Or sell it and start over


it is possible but, in my understanding, they'll only do it within a certain amount of time from when you purchased it assuming you bought it new from an authorized dealer.


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## adinteriors

crimsonsky said:


> where are you located? that might help.


I am in San Diego, CA
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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