# Arabian heads



## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

This is going to be a stupid question, but hopefully not offensive to anyone. I like Arabs, I know there are people that love them and people that hate them. I'm fairly neutral, I enjoy looking at them, but don't think I'd ever own one. 

Anyway, to the question: Why are Arabians (particularly those intended to show) bred for _such _dished faces? They look unnatural to me, I look at them and it makes me feel like it may be difficult for them to eat normally...I know that's silly, but it's to such an extreme it makes me wonder. They almost resemble anteaters, with the long face and extremely thin nose. 

Like this one http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4986/michael8130lw2.jpg 

and some are even more dished...

I'm used to thinking of an arabian head and seeing something like these:
http://15pictures.com/wp-content/gallery/15-pictures-arabian-horses/arabian-horse-1.jpg

http://www.sitevip.net/wallpapers/Animals/Horses/Arabian-Stallion.jpg

Is there a reason for the trend towards such thin noses? Are there any health problems caused by it? It just bothers me because it seems like something so beautiful is being distorted and caused to look deformed...almost alien.

I really hope I don't offend anyone by this, I just really want to know.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I love the extreme dish, looks exotic to me and sends chills up my spine. I can't be the only one, so I am guessing that is why?


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

People like the more exotic head, and different "strains" of Arabians can tend to have either dishier heads, or less dishy heads. If I remember correctly, I think that Egyptian Arabians tend to have dishier heads than say Russian Arabians. I personally don't like the extremely exotic head, but I do like a nice little bit of a dish in the face. 

There are a few out there where the actual bone has developed in a concave way, and they do have some health problems, but even the extremely exotic heads tend to have fairly large nostrils so don't have any breathing problems, or teeth problems that I've heard about.


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

So it's just a personal preference thing? I thought it might be that or trend, similar to how the modern dressage has switched to the flashy front end action with minimal hind leg action being favored by the judges..just a trend that with hopefully pass. It would definitely make sense if the different types of Arabians have a different look about them. I don't care for the "exotic" look myself it doesn't sit well with me for some reason.


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

How old is the horse in the first picture? I like a dish but one that is more classic. I am not fond of the last picture. Some Arabs that are extreme in dish do have dental issues. There was a farm in England, can't remember their name, that had a mare with an extremely dished head which to me, was deformed.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm with you. I don't like Arabs simply because I REALLY don't like the mega-dish faces. I also don't like the curved, arched necks. I just think it looks really unnatural and - to ME, speaking for myself - that it can border on looking like a deformity. (I'm so sorry, Arabian lovers! I am capable of *appreciating* a good 'arab-y' arab, but it doesn't mean I like them LOL). Their firey attitude turns me off a bit too, as I like big, gentle giants (WHOO draft horses).

But I also know that there's animals like that in most breeds - For example, Some day I really want a hairless cat. I know some people think they, too, look incredibly unnatural LOL. Some people just like them, I guess. I don't think there's any health issues that I know of - I have heard that the dish and big nostrils make them good for endurance. But I honestly don't know, I've never looked too much into them.

I think some Arab crosses can look just gorgeous - the right blend of (what I think of as) the best arab traits mixed with other horse traits can produce a stunning horse. I would certainly own an arab or a cross - just, not a SUPER arab-y arab. I'll leave those to the people who love them


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

Halsdon......Arabs tend to have a more archy neck. Ya' know, if you were to see these "halter" horses when they are in their natural state....Sometimes we humans have a tendency to take things to an extreme, "sometimes."...haha


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

First of all, take away the make up and a good portion of the " exotic" is gone. Then keep in mind, only the typiest photos are being published. 
I've seen a few " typey " Arabians outside of a show environment and had a hard time recognizing them. 
I've also noticed lots of straight Russian Arabians are super typey when young, but straighten out with age. 
Type is not only the dish. It's a straight or slightly concave profile, large eye, small tippy ears, wide forehead and dryness, no excess flesh.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

deserthorsewoman said:


> First of all, take away the make up and a good portion of the " exotic" is gone. Then keep in mind, only the typiest photos are being published.
> I've seen a few " typey " Arabians outside of a show environment and had a hard time recognizing them.
> I've also noticed lots of straight Russian Arabians are super typey when young, but straighten out with age.
> Type is not only the dish. It's a straight or slightly concave profile, large eye, small tippy ears, wide forehead and dryness, no excess flesh.



^ multiplied by a bajillion

You nailed it, DHW!


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

goneriding said:


> How old is the horse in the first picture? I like a dish but one that is more classic. I am not fond of the last picture. Some Arabs that are extreme in dish do have dental issues. There was a farm in England, can't remember their name, that had a mare with an extremely dished head which to me, was deformed.


I'm not sure how old the horse is, it was just a picture I found from a quick google search this is the original link: Scottsdale 2009 - The Arabian Horse Hot Topics Forum - A Black Horse Community


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I tried....;-)


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

deserthorsewoman said:


> First of all, take away the make up and a good portion of the " exotic" is gone. Then keep in mind, only the typiest photos are being published.


You are probably right on that part, the make -up doesn't help mine, and others, opinions that the "exotic" look is unnatural looking. I imagine it can be night and day difference, just like women who wear a lot of make-up.

Funny thing is I only fairly recently found out about horse make-up. Before then I always just thought they greased them up with Vaseline or something


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks for your post deserthorsewoman! I love my Arab's head - the refined look, the large eyes, the large airways and floating nostrils, the tippy ears, the wedge shape, everything. 

I don't like heads on most other riding type breeds. I think they are clunky, plain, and generally just uninteresting. That's my opinion. Not everyone likes the unique Arabian shape (head and body) and that's fine.

As far as the extreme dishes, there are some instances of health being negatively impacted at high exertion. That's only with the very extreme cases as far as I've seen. I've never seen anything for the most extreme cases having every day breathing problems, but it may be possible. That being said, it's so very rare. I imagine it's much easier to find a horse positive for HERDA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

I like the mild dished head. My mare has a dished face but not overly so.


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

I definitely can appreciate a nice Arab head, they are gorgeous! Like I said, I'm certainly not anti-arabian...It's just the extreme dishing that has been described as "exotic" and "typey" that I find bother some, it seems like too much of a good thing in my opinion.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Just remember that in addition to the "makeup" and very carefully sculpted clip jobs, MOST of those ultra dishy and exotic pics are photoshopped all to Hades and back again. If you saw those horses in the flesh, you wouldn't think it was the same horse in MANY if not MOST cases.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-tal...s-thread-meetup-6-a-220930/page6/#post2951626
check out post 52, 53 and 54....Arabians in pasture condition, no make up, unclipped, au naturel ...belong to a forum member


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Just remember that in addition to the "makeup" and very carefully sculpted clip jobs, MOST of those ultra dishy and exotic pics are photoshopped all to Hades and back again. If you saw those horses in the flesh, you wouldn't think it was the same horse in MANY if not MOST cases.


I didn't want to suggest that....I know it's being done...
I remember many moons ago in Germany, a breeder from Austria, named Trummer was the first to do it. So word was " oh, these pics are trummered"...;-)


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

Its like most things "show" take a great horse then do everything in the world they can to ruin and change the breed . Those overly dished faces create horses that cant breath efficiently, pretty much negating the entire advantage of the Arabian to begin with. 
Arabians with dainty legs and dished out faces that cant breath or hold up long term,
QH's that look like steroid infused freaks on such little feet they are lame by the time they are 7
TWH, with rail thin narrow backs and shoulders, with no runwalk only a high stepping rack and bone jarring ragged half trot,
Very little in so called show breeding I find attractive at all. SOmeone wants to breed some kinda useless freak because of it's look go for it, but at least have the decency to call it something different than the original breed.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

this is my Egyptian Arabian mare. I used to dislike her head, having owned some very typey arabs before, but I have grown to like it. she happens to be the best saddle horse I have ever owned.


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

BlueSpark, that's pretty interesting to see such a difference in how dished their faces can be! If I were to just see that picture I might think that she was a TB with how non-dished it is. I'm sure her body is more like an Arabian than TB, but that is pretty cool! Thanks for sharing, she's very pretty!


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

yes, she is definitely Arabian in body type, just a strait profile. she is registered Egyptian Arabian, complete with DNA test.


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## SEAmom (Jan 8, 2011)

Something else to consider: Many times the dish you see is actually a result of breeding for a more pronounced jibbah (the bulbous-looking area of the forehead). The more pronounced the jibbah, the more pronounced the dish. That has absolutely no negative impact on the horse's ability to breathe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Here you see a Jibbah, pronounced, on a foal.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Same filly, at 11 months. Jibbah almost gone. 
Excuse the pic quality. I had to take pics from old photos.


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

Thanks for all the info too. I forget that they do use make up on the horses for show and picture purposes, which does make a huge difference. I know someone who breeds, trains, and shows halter Mini's, and I watched him shave a rather fuzzy mini with a huge winter coat. He was doing a show that weekend, and man, the difference between the horse with the "normal" fuzzy winter coat, and the horse all shaved up, you almost wouldn't think it was the same horse. So there are many different ways to make the horse look different than it maybe really is. 

I tried to ask someone who used to show Arabians, trains them still but no longer shows, about the whole dished head thing, and I loved my mare so much that I want to find another Arabian like her, I wanted to know what type of breeding she was, i.e. Egyptian, Russian, etc. The answer to the dished head thing wasn't really an answer at all, so I've been kind of wondering myself, I thought that the jibbah was a very desired trait if the horse had it, but I got a "what's that, it's got nothing to do with the dished face" type of answer which made no sense to me. He also said that my horse was a "domestic" bred with a little Egyptian I believe, which leaves me scratching my head as I've never heard the term "domestic bred". But anyways, just goes to show you that everyone had a little different opinion, or explanation, and there are many different types out there, which is the same with any breed. You can get TB's that look more like Quarter Horses etc. People always thought my Arabian was a Quarab. They had a hard time believing she was purebred, as they were used to the skinny, very refined Arabs. Anyways, great information.


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I love the exotic look of the Arabian. I am an old gal and attended many many shows over the past few decades. I actually think that Arabs have gotten LESS exotic looking. The Arabians of old (at least 25-35 year ago) were much different then what you see in the rings now. They had the dished heads, but were not so extreme in high neck set, angled shoulder and high knee action you see in the ring now. I used to stand ringside in Awe of the Arabians floating trots and Big eyes. They looked like they could breath fire like a dragon, they were HOT but controlled. Amazing horses. Now, they look more like Saddlebreds and though Saddlebreds are now and always have been my favorite breed, I miss the old Arabians. I think that some folks are beginning to breed more like the old Arabians again. I mean, why work so hard to turn one breed into another? Saddlebreds are great, love the animated trots but Arabians are great for a totally different reason. I wish I had, had digital cameras back in the day so I could show you guys more pictures of the lovely Arabians back in the day.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

If you breed exclusively for a pretty head you might get it but that horse might not be a performance prospect.
Thanks deserthorsewoman for the link to my horses. They are never clipped and are all purebred arabians. 
The dark bay 2 year old colt is about as exotic as I want to get in my breeding program. The bay yearling will have a nicer head in a couple of years.
OP arabians come in all shapes, sizes, and types. IMO there is one for everyone.
I do not breed horses for the show ring exclusively nor do I focus my breeding program on one discipline. If I get a horse with a very nice exotic head I am happy but if he cant perform then I have failed. There are lots of arabian breeders who think as I do. Shalom


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Here is my Arab, I do not know anything about his breeding except that he has papers and he was one of the best!


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Since it appears like we're sharing pictures of our Arabians now, Lacey would never forgive me if I didn't add her dish to the group. :wink:
Everyone has such lovely Arabs!

Lacey here is, as far as I can tell, predominantly Polish bred. She's not registered but she's pure. Her sire was Polish with a dash of Crabbet and her mom is unknown. But, from how Polish-y Lacey looks/acts, I bet that her dam was pretty Polish as well.
She's not super dishy, she's just about how I like them. I wouldn't mind just a touch more though...but not too much.

[she's a 1986 "model" so hello, older-style Arab! ]


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is MY preference for an Arabian head:










NOO! Not the fat guy with glasses! I'm talking about the overburdened mare! Jeez...:wink:


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

dressagebelle said:


> Thanks for all the info too. I forget that they do use make up on the horses for show and picture purposes, which does make a huge difference. I know someone who breeds, trains, and shows halter Mini's, and I watched him shave a rather fuzzy mini with a huge winter coat. He was doing a show that weekend, and man, the difference between the horse with the "normal" fuzzy winter coat, and the horse all shaved up, you almost wouldn't think it was the same horse. So there are many different ways to make the horse look different than it maybe really is.
> 
> I tried to ask someone who used to show Arabians, trains them still but no longer shows, about the whole dished head thing, and I loved my mare so much that I want to find another Arabian like her, I wanted to know what type of breeding she was, i.e. Egyptian, Russian, etc. The answer to the dished head thing wasn't really an answer at all, so I've been kind of wondering myself, I thought that the jibbah was a very desired trait if the horse had it, but I got a "what's that, it's got nothing to do with the dished face" type of answer which made no sense to me. He also said that my horse was a "domestic" bred with a little Egyptian I believe, which leaves me scratching my head as I've never heard the term "domestic bred". But anyways, just goes to show you that everyone had a little different opinion, or explanation, and there are many different types out there, which is the same with any breed. You can get TB's that look more like Quarter Horses etc. People always thought my Arabian was a Quarab. They had a hard time believing she was purebred, as they were used to the skinny, very refined Arabs. Anyways, great information.


If you can put her pedigree on allbreedpedigree.com, we can check her out and tell you a little about her


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

She's on allbreedpedigree already, Alada Dreame V.S. She also is the horse in my avatar. She I think is more the old style Arabian, topped out at 14.1 or 2, pretty stocky compared to some of the Arabians I've seen, and like I said, people don't believe she's purebred, they think she's half Quarter Horse. She's quite flashy when she wants to be, but she loved jumping, and had more of a dressage/flat type movement than high stepping knee and hock action. She's currently being trained for HUS by the person I gave her to, and she cleaned up at her first breed show. Nice to have the small sport horse type Arabian win in a show!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

She's domestic bred alright
Very closely related to my avatar....Patino Arabian


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## dressagebelle (May 13, 2009)

Okay. Cool, thanks for the info. The grey is really cute! Definitely similar to my mare, and the type of Arabian I like.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I was absolutely stunned when I saw his pedigree. I'm German, and I only ever saw two Bask sons and fell in love. But they were sooooo out of reach( of course, an ocean in between lol). 
Of course I had to have him! I would have taken him anyway, he was in a bad bad situation and had already signaled that he wanted to come with me;-)


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Amerikan Beauty WP, no photoshop, no clipping, no grease.


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## HGEsquire (Feb 21, 2010)

There are pedigrees that tend to produce more extreme dishy faces than others. There are breeders that like to focus on those lines first and foremost. Faces and how they mature out are as pointed out a lot of times much different than what the foal is born with. 

Here are a few faces of GCA & Sport Horses that we love however..........we appreciate their mind and correct structure much more than their pretty faces.....after all we try to breed for longevity and the betterment of the breed 





































Denise Gainey


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## speedy da fish (May 7, 2009)

I love Arabs and I love dished faces but I really don't like the extreme dish.


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## HGEsquire (Feb 21, 2010)

speedy da fish said:


> I love Arabs and I love dished faces but I really don't like the extreme dish.


Nor do I......Found another pic to share of the type of face we like here and while it is breedy it is NOT extreme and for this we are grateful!!!










Denise Gainey


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I'm not a huge fan of that extreme dish, either. However, I'm not really seeing an extreme dish in the horse used as an example.
**** Reed is probably one of the finest breeders of Arabian horses and has an INCREDBILE program that has produced National champions again and again. 
In fact, he owns one of my all time favorite stallion, Kordelas, and was the breeder of Reining champion TA Mozart. 
Here is his website - I find it hard to go on there and not appreciate the quality:
Toskhara Arabians - Success in Reining, racing, Dressage, endurance racing and western division

This, to me, is an Arabian where the breeding for that dish has gone a little too far for my liking:


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Here's a few of my guys:


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

A lot of what a head can look like depends on the photo angle. My mare Dream is not very araby-headed under normal circumstances. Most people think she is Anglo at best. :wink:










But catch her at the right instant, she suddenly looks very araby!










The other mare:










the boys:



















I suspect the plain versus pretty heads are mostly related to their breeding: both mares are mostly polish, having been bred for racehorses and the boys have some egyptian in them, having been bred more for the show ring.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

None of the pure bred Arabs I ever saw when I lived in Jordan had any extreme dish face, some didn’t have it at all, and most of the horses that the Bedouin I lived with thought were the best horses never had the dish face. I also seem to recall years ago reading Lady Ann Blunt's books, as part of my research, and I vaguely recall her saying that the horses she was seeing in Nejd back in the 19th century didn’t have much of a pronounced dish either. My guess is that its probably a reasonably modern preference selectively bread for.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I've read the Bedouins culled the too dished ones, sold them to the Europeans and later Americans......


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## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

I don't think anyone answered the OP's question about the reason why they have such a dished face.

Don't take this as gospel, as this is what I'm remembering from my Equine Exercise Physiology lectures, but the dish in the face developed due to the hot, arid climate the Arab evolved in. The dish effects the shape of the sinuses, which, coupled with the large nostrils, allows a large oxygen intake and cools the air efficiently, helping prevent potentially fatal overheating of the brain.

Compare them to the draft horses/British native ponies - they often have a more roman nose. The larger sinuses allow the air to be warmed before it is taken into the lungs, as they are typically from colder climates.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Makes sense....now( I know, off topic lol), somebody explain the barb, Andalusian and Lusitano....all convex profiles and at least the barb stems from similar climate to the Arabian......not saying you're wrong, Indie lol....just something that popped in my mind.


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## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Makes sense....now( I know, off topic lol), somebody explain the barb, Andalusian and Lusitano....all convex profiles and at least the barb stems from similar climate to the Arabian......not saying you're wrong, Indie lol....just something that popped in my mind.


Hrmph. You have me stumped now :lol: I might have to go and dig out my revision notes and make sure I haven't just embarrassed myself


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Then add that most of the original imports from the desert had only a slight hint of a dish......
Which leads me back to my original post waaaayyyy up there...it's not only the dish that makes an Arabian head


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## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

My mostly Crabbet bred gelding.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

IndiesaurusRex said:


> I don't think anyone answered the OP's question about the reason why they have such a dished face.
> 
> Don't take this as gospel, as this is what I'm remembering from my Equine Exercise Physiology lectures, but the dish in the face developed due to the hot, arid climate the Arab evolved in. The dish effects the shape of the sinuses, which, coupled with the large nostrils, allows a large oxygen intake and cools the air efficiently, helping prevent potentially fatal overheating of the brain.
> 
> Compare them to the draft horses/British native ponies - they often have a more roman nose. The larger sinuses allow the air to be warmed before it is taken into the lungs, as they are typically from colder climates.


 
Well, going back to my observations on Arab horses, and I prefer quarter horses, so I know only what I was told by my Bedouin about Arab horses, but I doubt that is the answer. One, Deserthorsewoman has pretty much given a good argument as to why that probably isn’t the case,. And as I said, none of the horses I saw through the desert when I lived there in Jordan had the dish face, a few of the fancy ones had a little, but mostly they were brought in from the north, Syria and even as far away as Turkey, all the well known local horses had pretty much straight faces, and they were the ones the Bedouin liked for their endurance races, they liked the thoroughbreds for shorter distance races. (on a side note I have a video I took of a race in which my friend’s thoroughbred won, it’s worth watching to see how fast this horse could go, I’ll try to figure out how to upload it and make a post about it). 
The horses I saw there all look like Arabs, they have the same body and the face is kinda the same but for the dish. I’d almost be willing to bet money on it that the reason so many have the pronounced dish face is because some of them, in the past probably exhibited a predisposition for it, breeders focused on that as a particular trait of the breed and have selectively bread horses to emphasise that particular characteristic. The same has happened with all sorts of animals that are put in the show ring, they are bread for “breed characteristics” above everything else. For example, have a look at a real Shetland pony, then look at an American Shetland pony; hard to believe they came from the same stock.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

It is the different strains of arabians that exhibit different degrees of the jibbah.
The different tribes bred different strains and some have a very pronounced jibbah and others a straight profile.
The arabs did not believe in crossing the strains. So different regions had horses that were different sizes, colours, and degrees of the dish.
Though I do not think the extreme dish we see in the show ring was prominent in the desert. Shalom


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I have seen some of the really dished faces with the bulgy forehead and they are disturbing .
I think some of the show horses are bred that way , and just like the quarter horses that are butt high and really downhill, and the very uphillness of some WB's , I think it is wrong. 
the grey arabs posted a few comments up , with nice heads and faces are pretty , and were what was common when i was young in this area, they had a nice head and were very dainty heads compared to the quarter horse


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> It is the different strains of arabians that exhibit different degrees of the jibbah.
> The different tribes bred different strains and some have a very pronounced jibbah and others a straight profile.
> The arabs did not believe in crossing the strains. So different regions had horses that were different sizes, colours, and degrees of the dish.
> Though I do not think the extreme dish we see in the show ring was prominent in the desert. Shalom


 

Yeah, that sounds about right. Bedouin are pretty careful about keeping track of their own linages, those of their camels and horses. The linages of camels and horses are associated with certain groups so that they know the family tree of the animals as well as their own, spanning generations, and many groups are well known for breeding particular types of animals. For example the Al Murrah Bedouin of the Rub alKhali in Saudi Arabia are well known for breeding very expensive black milking camels (which can sell for over a million US), some Howeitat Bedouin from the south of Jordan are famous for breeding pure white camels that are highly valued for producing very fine wool, others in Egypt were known for producing enormous draft camels that were highly valued for many of the Bedouin who were involved in smuggling between Egypt, Saudi and Syria up to about the 1980s, and there were many tribes or sub-tribes throughout west Asia and north Africa who were famous for producing valuable racing camels too. It was the same for horses, as far as I can remember the Rashid, who were powerful throughout Nejd and the Hejaz, until the Sauds beat them and established Saudi Arabia were famous for their horses, as were many others. 
But, given that Bedouin tribes are fairly anarchic in their operation with very little central decision making processes that could have shaped a unified breeding programme, and, though major linages of camel and horses may have been in the hands of maybe a sub tribe rather than a whole tribe, which could have given some measure of unity in breeding, the animals, or the whole breed, would have usually been spread across sub tribes of many tribes given the practice of raiding and the prestige involved in seizing the animals from other tribes, I'd be guessing that there would be a reasonable amount of variation in characteristics that people would have been breeding for. 
Still, from what I can recall from reading Blunt's books, she noted that back in her day that some breeders were digging the dish head, mainly in Britain and Europe as far as I can remember; she seemed to be a bit critical of the practice. But it wasn’t so prominent in Nejd, and maybe Hejaz. But if it was becoming a thing even back in her day it is certainly something that has been thought to be a major breed characteristic for a very long time. But then it was a while ago that I read her books; my memory might be a bit hazy.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I have seen those white camels in Jordan while I was living in Israel . If you go to the Negev or Sinai you can still seen them using camels . Probably for smuggling. Shalom


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> I have seen those white camels in Jordan while I was living in Israel . If you go to the Negev or Sinai you can still seen them using camels . Probably for smuggling. Shalom


Well, I don't know if that was as funny to everyone else as it was to me, but I just lost some of my coffee on my laptop reading that! :lol::lol:


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Glad that you got a kick out of that wsarabians. 
I strive to be funny as often as possible. With varying degrees of success however. LOL
. The Bedouin have been smuggling, kidnapping, and raiding for centuries. Lots of terrorist use those ancient trade routes to cross the desert and enter other countries. Weapons also and no matter who is in power in whatever capital the Bedouin are still free and independent.
They keep the Palestinian majority in Jordan at rest so the King of Jordan remains on his throne. They ousted the PLO from Jordan in the 80's and exiled Arafat when he tried to rest control of the country from King Hussien. Shalom


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think the extreme head came out of a desire for an art form rather than a functional horse, certainly that shape seems to have become more evident in recent years regardless of the strain
Here are 2 pics of Al Farouk the arab I had in the mid 80's for a few years, he was a grandson of Grojec (pic of him attached too) and looked a lot like him. Grojec was brought to the US to introduce more body into the lighter weight Arabians.
Even Skowronek who appears in so many pedigrees didn't have the extreme dished face we see now in the polish strain
I think I'm more concerned about the lack of substance in some of the modern Arabians than I am about the head - but there does seem to be a drive to address this and get back to something that can be a really wonderful useful riding horse - which is what they were originally meant to be - and away from being pasture ornaments or halter horses
I've seen some fantastic Arabians belonging to HF members so someone must be getting it right again!!


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

That is what an arabian horse should look like IMO. It is also the direction I have taken and intend to stay on in my breeding program.
I have two mares with very prominent dishes. Both are very athletic and correct.
The arabian horse should be able to go 25 or more miles with very little conditioning and be able to cross well with most breeds as they have always done.
This is why the breed is so valuable both historically and for the future.
If we as arabian breeders and owners neglect the soundness and versatility the breed is known for we are IMO committing a crime against the breed. Shalom


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Jaydee, your horse was freaking gorgeous, and Gorjec (as well as Skowronek - there's a reason he is one of my favourite sire lines) is an perfect example of what an Arabian should be.

Here's a few of my favourite old foundation sires that I think should be brought back:

Lewisfield Magic (my jr. stallion is a g-grandson of his):










Mesaoud:










Fadjur:










Magic Domino:











Eacho:










Tripoli is attached.
Back when legs and hips and backs were not compromised for a pretty head. In MY opinion.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

They are some fantastic Arabians aren't they. Not only did they breed some great purebreds but also many wonderful show ponies, anglo's etc
Our boy was eventually gelded at age 9 - he had a sad complicated story that eventually didnt end well - but after being nothing other than a stud horse he came to us and I broke and showed him in ridden classes. I like to think that the time he was with us was the happiest he ever had.
Keeping his weight down was the biggest problem!!!
He also did some dressage - which at the time many people said an arab couldn't do and what you call hunter paces. He would jump anything cross country but saw no point in show jumps at all.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

Ugh will try to post my gelding again later.
I'm not seeing the photo insert button.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## goneriding (Jun 6, 2011)

I have to say, they have heart. I liked riding them on trails. I have one SE mare left who is retired and I sure do miss riding her. I love my QH's but there is something to be said about an Arabian horse....I will always have a place in my heart for the breed, always.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

wsa has some really awesome looking horses, they are in a past post and are drop dead gorgeus. in my opinion


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## As You Wish (May 22, 2013)

I never thought twice about Arabians.... until I got one and then another. They are Arab X but I just love them. Now I am all about the Arabians. I love their attitude and firey personalities. Not a fan of the super deep dish face, but a nice soft dish and the wide set eyes are nice.


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## Country Woman (Dec 14, 2011)

I love the Arabian dished face so noble


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

WSArabians said:


> This, to me, is an Arabian where the breeding for that dish has gone a little too far for my liking:



I have seen photos of this horse before. She is so extreme that I wonder if it isn't an accident of nature (ie., something similar to wry nose) rather than an example of intentional breeding for extreme dish.

I wonder what her sire/dam looked like. 

Someone else here posted that after owning Arabians every other horse's head just seems so plain and boring. I feel the same way! My first two horses were Arabians and it really took some getting used to when I bought some other breeds. Every other horse breed out there, at best, has a "level" head that is perhaps noble but not beautiful. And some breeds, well, let's just say stock horses for example, took some getting used to. So many stock horses have plain and even ugly looking heads to me. And it's like their eyes are sunk into their heads, not large and beautiful like on an Arabian. And my Mustang, well, he was no better. But the funny thing is, the better the horse treats you, the more beautiful it grows in your eyes every single day. 

But it was hard going from Arabians to plain headed horses. I really like a dry head that is level to dished but not roman nosed at all. That's what I like about my Fox Trotter and her son. They are not dished, but at least they are level with curved, shapely ears like an Arabian. What the heck is it with ears on stock horses? Some of them have ears that are so short and fat. I like a shapely, curved ear and I don't care if it is a tad on the long side.

These are my Arabians (they passed away or I would still own them). I loved them so much! They were my first and second horses. Wonderful horses. I would own another Arabian in a heartbeat if I was looking for a horse and it fit my purpose.


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## Zora (Mar 18, 2010)

I love the old style Arabians! We used to own a wonderful Egyptian Arab mare named Goldin Majesty(Majic) 
Now we have her filly, "Morning Glory" who is an Hispano-Arab, but still has a mildly dished face.
Below are some pictures>

Majic


A few of Majic's ancestors that I love.
Grogor (Grandsire)>

Ansata Shah Zam.(grandsire)

Ansata Shah Zaman.
[/URL

Majic's filly, Morning Glory, age 7.
[URL="http://s240.photobucket.com/user/pamzora/media/IMG_1896_zps8f496772.jpg.html"]


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## Kotori (Jun 18, 2012)

I always thought the dished face was an identification thing, much like the Shire's size and feathers, the Quarter horse's volumptuous hindquarters, and the Tb's legginess. Past that, I feel if it gets too extreme, like post-legs in QH halter horses, then it will slowly back off.

I remember as a little kid I used to always check if they had dish, because it was the only breed I could tell apart. I was always so proud if i got it right :lol:


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## RememberPearl (Jul 21, 2013)

I grew up around very spirited show horse Arabians that had really dished faces. It was something I never found pretty rather I thought they looked alien to me. I like Arabians that have a very slight dish to there heads, not extreme.


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## Country27 (Aug 16, 2013)

I don't know for sure but I've heard since they are from the Arabian desert where it is really hot the dished in face, the big nostrils, and the arched neck help them get in more air and that when they were domesticated and bred it became a standard for them


But anyway I'm not sure but I've heard that more than once


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Country27 said:


> I don't know for sure but I've heard since they are from the Arabian desert where it is really hot the dished in face, the big nostrils, and the arched neck help them get in more air and that when they were domesticated and bred it became a standard for them
> 
> 
> But anyway I'm not sure but I've heard that more than once


 
I doubt it. Like I said, most of the ones I have seen when I lived in the Arabian Desert (North, not on the Peninsula) which were owned by ordinary Bedouin, never had the dished face. Those that did have it, it was only slight. I have seen some Arabian shows from the Gulf on YouTube, and they all have a bit of dish going on, but that could be the make-up (and I am still astonished that there actually even is horse make-up) or they have been bred to fit to the supposed characteristics. That’s my guess anyway. Or maybe the Bedouin in Southern Jordan just don’t dig the dish so have bred their horses not to have it? They certainly told me that they are better in desert endurance races without the dish.


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## Arab Mama (Jun 10, 2012)

My turn. I'm not real big on the dish thing myself, though a slight dish is attractive. My "dishiest" horse is probably my Peanut in my avatar. Here are some of my other totally non-dishy faces (please excuse the beginner's choke hold on my mare's mouth in the last pic).


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

Not all breeders strive for a "head", most good breeders breed for sound legs and good conformation. But of course there will always be those breeders that are "head hunters". Also, it does depend, quite often but not always, on the bloodlines.


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## Gallop On (May 1, 2011)

Ive always loved Arabs, mega dished face or not, but the only thing I dont like about the extremely typey ones is how fine boned they look. I rescued my Arab about three years ago and when he filled out it was obvious he wasnt a extreme looking Arab, as he was rather... thick :lol: Never the less, hes a amazing horse.


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## Arab Mama (Jun 10, 2012)

Gallop On - love your boy. Looks a little like my 3 year old:


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Twilight Arabians (Dec 14, 2008)

I have seen many arabians over the years and love the dishy face, although there are some that are a little over the top. Here are a few pics of my girl Missy.


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## Faustinblack (Aug 16, 2011)

I call the extremely dished arabs mutants. Never liked them before until I got my Rikki. Best horse I have ever owned.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

*whistles* Look at those older style Arabs. Just beautiful. THOSE are the types of Arabs I like to see. Good strong bone. Something you'd WANT to use to do a bit of everything or handle a long endurance ride. I can appreciate a super type-y head if it's on a good bodied Arab. I don't personally _like _them, but can appreciate the beauty of them. Although I'm sure some people would consider my mare fairly type-y >.> I never have though.



















These are both super old, but for some reason I only have pictures of her all fuzzy in the winter >.>


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## Faustinblack (Aug 16, 2011)

Love the second one. She looks like my Rikki
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arab Mama (Jun 10, 2012)

Twilight & Sketchy - lovely horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

This is an example of 'type' taken tooooooo far!


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## StormCloud (Mar 3, 2013)

WSArabians said:


> This, to me, is an Arabian where the breeding for that dish has gone a little too far for my liking:


Is it just me, or does that image look photoshopped? I'm seeing a diagonal line across the face of the horse, starting just below the "eyebrow" area just visible to the right of the head, and ending near the point where the curve of the jaw changes angle. That diagonal line, with the slight change in colour/shading on either side of it, says "cut and paste job" to me - specifically, that someone altered that image to make the horse's head shape appear MORE extreme.

If someone can reference other images of the same horse that look similarly extreme, I'll be more convinced.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Better?


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

last one.

As I have stated before I love a slight dish but some breeders are taking it a bit far. 

These horses have cute and slightly dishy faces.


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## StormCloud (Mar 3, 2013)

I'm not sure "better" is exactly the word I'd use, but "clearer", definitely. :wink: Those photos really do look bizarre! Has anyone seen these horses in real life? Do they look as strange in actuality as they appear these pics?


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## tranquilo (Dec 17, 2007)

KigerQueen said:


> This is an example of 'type' taken tooooooo far!


This mare's head is actually a birth defect. She had a leg wrapped around her face in the womb. She was bred and her babies had very typical Arabian heads. It's nice that she has owners who think she's beautiful anyway, but I don't think there are too many Arabian breeders who would want to breed something that looks like that lol.

I'm not into really extreme heads but I do like to ride a pretty horse.  It's been covered in this thread but the bulged forehead that gives them the dish did have a practical purpose for desert horses. The problems I see with some modern lines is breeding for tiny muzzles which make the dish more pronounced but can also cause issues, and breeding horses that are way too long from eye to muzzle which just isn't Arabian type.


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

stevenson said:


> wsa has some really awesome looking horses, they are in a past post and are drop dead gorgeus. in my opinion


Thanks Stevenson!! 
Can't wait to show off some new ones soon....


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