# Help me understand our mares registration papers!



## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

As a cross between Percheron and Belgian she would not be able to be registered in either of those breed registries even if both sire and dam were registered with their respective breed registries. NASDHA allowed registration of full drafts or crosses for breeding purposes. I'd say she was registered for that purpose and may have been used for that before being sold to your boyfriend. Sad that they did not record her sire and dam with their information so that you would have more to go on. Grulla is not a recognized color for the American Belgian or Percheron that I am aware of so she may be not full draft.


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## AndalusianRobyn (Nov 27, 2017)

Not sure about papers but she is definitely gray and not grulla, as grulla doesn't fade and gray does! Nice mare.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Grey horses have a base color for their coat and a gene that causes them to grey over time. The Greying gene causes the change to white eventually. Depending on the registry the horse can be registered as grey with no notation for the base color or as the base and no mention of the grey if it was not realized when the foal was registered or like the NASDHA which registers the base and has a place to add if there is grey present or not. Grey is common for Percherons and the Grulla suggests to me that she was already greying out and mistakenly noted as grulla when she is actually black with a grey gene. There is no grey in the American Belgian and they come in sorrel/chestnut. So you would have an EEG? (Perch) bred to an ee (Belgian) and have a foal that is EeGg making that foal black with grey. The only way for grulla is if the sire or dam were crossed with something that carried Dun.


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## humanartrebel1020 (Nov 12, 2018)

Percheron and Belgian both come in grulla . She could have just shed out her baby coat and revealed a light coat which got lighter over time due to a grey gene. It would be cool to contact the original owners to see what she really is though ;p. Best case is this was an honest mistake and can be correced.


Animal Genetics identifies 2 mutations of the TBX3 gene responsible for Dun dilution and primitive markings and presents results as one of the following:

D/D 2 copies of Dun. Horse will have Dun dilution and express primitive markings. Dun will be passed on 100% of the time.

D/nd1 1 copy of Dun and one copy of nd1. Horse will have Dun dilution and express primitive markings. Horse can pass on Dun dilution or primitive markings without dilution.

D/nd2 1 copy of Dun and one copy of nd2. Horse will have Dun dilution and express primitive markings. Horse can pass on Dun dilution with primitive marking 50% of the time.

nd1/nd1	2 copies of nd1. Horse will not be Dun diluted. Varying levels of primitive markings are present. Horse will pass on nd1 100% of the time.

nd1/nd2 1 copy of nd1 and one copy of nd2. Horse will not be Dun diluted. Varying levels of primitive markings are present. Horse will pass on nd1 50% of the time.

nd2/nd2	Non Dun


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## humanartrebel1020 (Nov 12, 2018)

You can play around here Coat Color Calculator
She most likely had a dam that already contained dun dilution. If sire contained the grey gene homozygous or hetero the grey was more dominant. One horse can contain multiple genes of dilution. "The Gray gene causes the progressive loss of pigment throughout the horses coat and will affect any color horse. Even though the horse is gray, it still has all the genetics of the color it was before going gray. To determine the possible offspring colors that the gray horse can produce, it is necessary to know what color the horse was before going gray. "


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I bet she was never grulla. I bet that someone unaware of how grey affects color. Many greying horses “look” grulla. But is it just a grey phase. 

I believe indexed stock means she could be used as a foundation mare of the spotted draft breed, but is not officially a spotted draft.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

@humanartrebel1020 "Percheron and Belgian both come in grulla . She could have just shed out her baby coat and revealed a light coat which got lighter over time due to a grey gene. It would be cool to contact the original owners to see what she really is though ;p. Best case is this was an honest mistake and can be correced." "Even though the horse is gray, it still has all the genetics of the color it was before going gray. To determine the possible offspring colors that the gray horse can produce, it is necessary to know what color the horse was before going gray. "

With very few exceptions dun is not present in the heavy draft horse breeds. Not D nor nd1. Now in the draft pony breeds it is fairly common with a handful that carry it. Most notably the Fjord. The accepted colors for Percheron are are black, chestnut or bay with or without roan or gray. Gray was the favored choice when breeding. In some registries the only color allowances are for black or gray. Here in the U.S. that is all you ever saw for generations so those bays and roans were rare finds. Same is said for the American Belgians. They were bred for the sorrel/chestnut with flaxen and pangare. The Brabant breed from which they came came in black, bay, chestnut/sorrel with both roan and gray but with the Brabant the roan was more favored. 

IF the mare is truly grulla (black with dun) and gray then there is some other breed represented besides Percheron and Belgian. I suspect the mare was black, going gray in the picture used for registration and someone with no clue about breeds or colors arbitrarily put grulla down. As a prior poster said grulla is often mistaken for gray at the in between stage where the white is heavy on the body. It is also mistaken for roan on black. 

Here the Percheron would be genetically EEG_ (black with gray) and the Belgian would be eegg. The dominant E would mean black and the gray would have come from there as well. Any foal from that cross would be Ee (black) and could be Gg or gg depending on if the sire is **** or heterozygous for that gray.


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## humanartrebel1020 (Nov 12, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> @humanartrebel1020 "Percheron and Belgian both come in grulla . She could have just shed out her baby coat and revealed a light coat which got lighter over time due to a grey gene. It would be cool to contact the original owners to see what she really is though ;p. Best case is this was an honest mistake and can be correced." "Even though the horse is gray, it still has all the genetics of the color it was before going gray. To determine the possible offspring colors that the gray horse can produce, it is necessary to know what color the horse was before going gray. "
> 
> With very few exceptions dun is not present in the heavy draft horse breeds. Not D nor nd1. Now in the draft pony breeds it is fairly common with a handful that carry it. Most notably the Fjord. The accepted colors for Percheron are are black, chestnut or bay with or without roan or gray. Gray was the favored choice when breeding. In some registries the only color allowances are for black or gray. Here in the U.S. that is all you ever saw for generations so those bays and roans were rare finds. Same is said for the American Belgians. They were bred for the sorrel/chestnut with flaxen and pangare. The Brabant breed from which they came came in black, bay, chestnut/sorrel with both roan and gray but with the Brabant the roan was more favored.
> 
> ...



This is all perspective and here say. Percheron and Belgian do come in a grulla coat. The picture in the registration is tainted black and white filter. It doesnt mean the person "Knew nothing" about horse color. IF it is a mistake or sorts its a general common misconception with a foal coat and thats why AQHA and other associations allow for correction. Whos to say her parent Wasnt Grulla and her Dam or Sire Had a Homozygous or event hetero Grey gene. Like stated from the DNA site it doesnt mean She ISNT Grulla. Grey Gene is the Gene. The site i mention above, which im sure you ( QtRebl) already clicked on has all possibilities and information to further help OP :faceshot: Id say dna test her haha but baby pics would also help.


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## humanartrebel1020 (Nov 12, 2018)

https://www.fqha.com/articles/Grulla - breeding_for_the_dilute_colors.htm


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

humanartrebel1020 said:


> https://www.fqha.com/articles/Grulla - breeding_for_the_dilute_colors.htm


But the OP doesn't have a quarter horse - nobody is saying dun isn't in quarter horses. 

A brief glance at the linked site shows outdated, incorrect information; bay is NOT "black-based," it is a base color on its own. The original base color, in fact.

I would love to see links to sites showing tested dun Belgians and Percherons.


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## humanartrebel1020 (Nov 12, 2018)

phantomhorse13 said:


> But the OP doesn't have a quarter horse - nobody is saying dun isn't in quarter horses.
> 
> A brief glance at the linked site shows outdated, incorrect information; bay is NOT "black-based," it is a base color on its own. The original base color, in fact.
> 
> I would love to see links to sites showing tested dun Belgians and Percherons.


wow. Thats what you got from that? All i can politely say is you need to do more research yourself.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

humanartrebel1020 said:


> wow. Thats what you got from that? All i can politely say is you need to do more research yourself.


 I made it as far as the third paragraph, where the ongoing incorrect information meant I was not going to waste my time reading any further. Genetics is a constantly changing field and it's a shame when people don't update their pages to reflect more recent knowledge.


Again, I would love to see links to tested dun Belgians and Percherons.


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## humanartrebel1020 (Nov 12, 2018)

phantomhorse13 said:


> I made it as far as the third paragraph, where the ongoing incorrect information meant I was not going to waste my time reading any further. Genetics is a constantly changing field and it's a shame when people don't update their pages to reflect more recent knowledge.
> 
> 
> Again, I would love to see links to tested dun Belgians and Percherons.


The information is accurate to the foundation of colors, genes, and outcome foaling possibilities. Please decide to do more research on the forever changing field. Nobody said bay isnt a Color
Do you research and look for your answers then please dont quote me again, Thanks. Id rather this be enjoyable and not debated over.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

humanartrebel1020 said:


> The information is accurate to the foundation of colors, genes, and outcome foaling possibilities.


No, it is not. 

For example, the site says "It is also important to note that there is now a test for homozygosity of the E gene. This inexpensive test will let a breeder know if his stallion or mare will produce 100% "black-based" colors."

Testing for E alone will not tell you about ability to produce black. Testing for E alone doesn't even tell you if the horse in question is black. You cannot know about a horse's ability to produce black without testing for extension and agouti, as both loci together determine base color.

Bay is not a modifier.


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## humanartrebel1020 (Nov 12, 2018)

phantomhorse13 said:


> No, it is not.
> 
> For example, the site says "It is also important to note that there is now a test for homozygosity of the E gene. This inexpensive test will let a breeder know if his stallion or mare will produce 100% "black-based" colors."
> 
> ...


Says the one who says " bay is NOT "black-based," it is a base color on its own. The original base color, in fact."

Gladd you took my advice to re bay is NOT "black-based," it is a base color on its own. The original base color, in fact." 

Glad you took my advice to research . Black based referring to Agouti ( bay/Black). This post isnt about Bay its about Betseys Genetic makeup and registration papers that states grulla.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Actually it is not. 30 years breeding Belgians, following trends and keeping up with Percheron breeders that a business partner bought mares from to produce consistent color for the crosses we bred along with research and attending various breed functions tells me otherwise.


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## humanartrebel1020 (Nov 12, 2018)

QtrBel said:


> Actually it is not. 30 years breeding Belgians, following trends and keeping up with Percheron breeders that a business partner bought mares from to produce consistent color for the crosses we bred along with research and attending various breed functions tells me otherwise.


What did your business partner tell you


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I am certainly no expert on genetics, but when I have questions especially related to coat colors; I ask @phantomhorse13

If I have a question about drafts, I ask @QtrBel who has decades of experience with the draft breeds, especially Belgians.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

No, Belgians and Percherons DO not come in the grulla coat. If there is a dun, they have been crossbred. 

Perhaps one of the parents in question WERE crossbred with a breed that has dun as possible color. But the most likely conclusion is a mix up about the phenotype “looking” grulla but genotypical is a grey. 

So many people ask if my greys are buckskin or grulla and I have had to fix many registration papers because people miss-register a color.


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## elt77 (Aug 10, 2016)

Thanks so much everyone, very interesting discussion and you have all taught me a lot!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

You really have to look at the breed standard
For the Percheron to be accepted into the stud book they have to be either black or grey. Sometimes a chestnut foal comes out but they aren't eligible for registration
The Belgian is bay, chestnut, sorrel and roan. In the US the sorrel colour seems predominate 
Looking at the conformational breed standards the OP's mare doesn't look like a typical straight cross between those two breeds so I imagine something else got thrown into the mix
The colour when registered was probably a guess


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