# QH conformation- why?



## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I googled QH stallions, and came across these horses. My question is why are people breeding for this?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Because many people seem to care for nothing but looks in the show /breeding scene... & beauty is in the eye of the beer holder! And people buy them without understanding or consideration of health & soundness... Often thinking if it's show bred & exxy it must be good, so there's a market.

The first horse is just ugly all round imo, like one of those 'improved' beef bulls. And looks like it wouldn't be all that much more athletic or long term sound either. Second horse looks like he has a nice hind end, but mismatched, light on compared to the heavy front half - looks like a TB hind on that beefbull front.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Same with dog breeds...


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## horsegirl234 (Mar 8, 2021)

4horses said:


> I googled QH stallions, and came across these horses.* My question is why are people breeding for this?*


I know right? I think it looks rather ugly and especially the halter horses often have soundness issues because of their confirmation.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Both horses are breeding fit weighted, or aka overweight and it shows!

I am not a fan of many halter horse builds today but older stock were nice looking, well balanced and "good-using" horses..
Years ago few people had "just" a halter horse but the animal had to also ride and ride decently...
Today with such class specific wants, all many halter horses do is halter so...tweaked and tweaked till what you see is what you often get.
No thank-you, not for me.

The second horse actually has many positive attributes seen and going for it.
Bred to a mare who has weak to his strong, nice to his nice the chances for a *nice* baby and growing youngster increase.
You are also looking at color, and if the horse throws dominant color patterns could attract many a breeding his direction.
He also has a using build...
For a horse with minimal muscle he is not so out of balance...he is a stud and exhibits many traits of a stud who only is used for stud duties, not ridden much if at all...his job is breeding not riding I would think.
I don't know either stallions nor their lineage...

Based on bone structure if I was looking to breed I would go for the second horse to service my mare over the first horse just because my horses are not statues but riding horses and need to be able to do their job under saddle.

Based upon the pictures you found and presented, the quality of the animals appearance and set-up of the animals for positive results seen, my guess is both of these animals have full books for breeding duties...  
🐴...


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I have written ad nauseum on the subject of the communal psychology which ends up causing extreme deformation of appearance and disregard of functionality in animal breeding. I have thought about it for decades. But briefly, the way it goes is:

1. *Humans are extremely visual animals*. They are obsessed with the way things look, and it is a very rare skill to be able to "see beneath the surface", so to speak. My goat mentor would never keep a breeding animal with flashy markings because she felt that she, and others, would grade that goat higher than it deserved, and she knew she couldn't stop herself. Wise woman.

2. The way appearance competitions work, and they CANNOT work any other way, is that the animal which has the edge wins. The edge will be "just a little more" of something -- if muscularity is emphasized in the judging standard, the muscliest, if refinement, the most refined. Since the animals come from the same general breeding pool and closely resemble each other, this edge will be usually be quite small, at any given point in time. 

3. Winning animals are bred together to produce more winning, i.e. more extreme, animals. Of these, the most extreme are always selected. These extreme animals are more and more inbred (google 'popular sire syndrome'), and start showing the weird homozygous problems associated with inbreeding without culling for unhealthy traits, along with both the deformation of type, and the passing on of unsoundnesses which don't affect winning. 

Even if you, as a breeder, begin to worry about the direction you see the show ring heading, you only have two choices -- quit, or keep doing what everyone else is doing. You have no influence over the direction toward extremeness, and -- this is important to understand -- neither does anyone else. Not judges, not writers of breed standards, no one. The system runs the system, not the participants. Judges are not hired back if they use the standard to judge by, once the breeding pool has moved past the standard into extremity. It makes me tired to hear the same old rants: if the judges only! If breeders only! It's all about winning! (well, duh). There is only the game, which runs itself. 

What happens after a breed is so extreme or so sickly it is no longer functional? One thing that does NOT happen is the fanciers who bred those animals collectively realize with horror what they have done. Nope. They always double down, with a giant cloud of denial and nonsense. They have invested their lives in this charade, they are not going to give it up. No, what happens is, popularity wanes, new people do not replace the old, while at the same time, a parallel, you might call it a reform group, arises, which invariably intends to showcase the original type of animal which no longer has a place in the appearance competitions. Typically this also involves some activity which showcases the original use of the animal.

I have seen this happen in several species and any number of breeds. It appears to be a kind of inevitable progression.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

The first horse is a halter sire and he has won a ton. People who show halter or breed halter want to breed to a proven stallion - that is what he is. You breed for what you are looking for.

Frenchmans Boogie is also a proven sire. Barrels I believe. People breed to them for what he can produce.

What's the reasoning behind the question?


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

If you are stallion shopping the great thing is you have close to unlimited choices of stallions and can choose who you breed your mares to.

The palomino horse is Frenchmans Boogie. While I'm not huge on the Frenchmans Guy bred horses I'm not opposed to a Sun Frost(Frenchmans Guy's sire) and had good luck with them although they can be a tough ride.

I'm not big on Frenchmans Boogie's look(conformation) and I don't know a lot about him. But I believe he has out produced himself in the barrel pen.
Something to consider is, he was a performance horse(producing performance horses) winning money rather than a look being chased by what judges want to see or a trend.

Again while not my choice but at least he produced performance winners.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Halter horses are one of the main reasons I will not knock grades and Mustangs. They are more often the sound, usable animals of the bunch. There is nothing "wrong" with purebred animals in theory. I really love most all horses. But as long as stock halter horses are being bred like the first one.........give me a nice Mustang any day!

Also, with purebred animals comes great responsibility to prevent doubling down on hereditary defects. Because members of the same breed are bred back to each other from the same gene pool, you have a much greater chance of passing along defects. That's why crossbred animals are usually healthier. It's not that you can't have healthy purebred animals, but it is a lot harder. And when what wins is a result of defect (like HYPP) then breeders will often look the other way.

Now wouldn't a person who rides their horses rather have something like this?

















The Frenchman's horse isn't "pretty" either, but he's sure a lot prettier than halter horse! The hocks in particular on the halter horse make me go ! 

I really don't buy that color trumps conformation in a breeders eyes. I guess I'm not a breeder, but I LOVE color on a horse. Pintos, Appaloosas and blacks make me swoon. But color will not cover up ugly conformation. If it does, the person knows zilch about conformation. Maybe that's the root problem......lack of education among buyers. But I don't see why you can't have color AND conformation. With all we know about genetics today and all the fancy ways to get your mare bred to a stallion across the country, it shouldn't be that hard to have both.


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

4horses said:


> I googled QH stallions, and came across these horses. My question is why are people breeding for this?


 I think of it as different strokes for different folks. Everyone has their own definition of what they want out of horses. A halter bred QH is good for some, others might want an Andalusian, some people love mules. To me, it's fun to see all the breeds and their advocates.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

@trailhorserider -- that's one fine little horse you got there.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Avna said:


> @trailhorserider -- that's one fine little horse you got there.


Awe, thanks, but he's not mine. He was a horse I was admiring at a BLM adoption. He had gone through an inmate training program and was trained and ready to go. At the time I had too many horses.

But this guy was a wonderful BLM Mustang I owned until he passed away. Best trail horse ever!


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## ChieTheRider (May 3, 2017)

The first one would be alright if his hocks were normal and he wasn't so overweight. He'd still be ugly IMO but he might be sound to ride. Those hocks....

The yellow horse is disproportioned but otherwise alright. Maybe if he gained some backside muscle and lost some weight he'd look better. He's pretty at a glance.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Palfrey said:


> I think of it as different strokes for different folks. Everyone has their own definition of what they want out of horses. A halter bred QH is good for some,


Yeah, IMO 'different strokes' is fine, until it impacts on health & soundness of the animal - which with horses like that first at least, dog breeds, obscenely heavy beef cattle, huge uddered dairy cows, dwarfed animals kept as pets... Etc, we have caused suffering in the animals we claim to love & care about - which IMO is NOT good for any.


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

loosie said:


> Yeah, IMO 'different strokes' is fine, until it impacts on health & soundness of the animal - which with horses like that first at least, dog breeds, obscenely heavy beef cattle, huge uddered dairy cows, dwarfed animals kept as pets... Etc, we have caused suffering in the animals we claim to love & care about - which IMO is NOT good for any.


Oh, I agree. I've seen plenty of blind and deaf double Merle Aussies, brachycephalic bulldogs, etc through my job. I'll add broiler chickens to your list of oversized production animals. Humans seem to be dissatisfied unless they take it to the extreme. What can be done?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Palfrey said:


> What can be done?


Well I read Avna's very interesting thoughts, as, perhaps nothing can be done - the animals(& people) are just the 'subjects' of an unstoppable process(Avna?)? But while humans have proved ourselves... not very intelligent on... a few occasions, I believe there is hope, in educating people about it - I do believe people generally do this blindly, ignorantly, not because they know better & don't care, so if we continue to educate people of the health & soundness probs... dunno how much difference on the meat/milk(etc) industries, but if more people were educated & choosy about the meat they ate...


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Quarter Horses are very discipline specific these days. The only ones that are good (in my opinion) examples of what the breed is supposed to be are the Race Horses (Dash for Cash), Roping Horses (Driftwood), and Ranch Horses (pick one).

Because the Quarter Horse show world is so diverse, and people really hone in on what is a winner in that specific show class/sport you don’t see much crossover at all. Reiners and Cutters for example are a very different kind of horse, as much mentally as physically.

Personally I find the old Stock Horse that could do it all the real Quarter Horse but that horse hasn’t existed for several decades now aside from a few ranches that have held on to it.

Here’s a Stallion that I really like all the colts I’ve seen by him, heavy Cutter breeding which is not a bad thing. Bet Hesa Cat (Highbrow Cat x Bet Yer Blue Boons)


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

jgnmoose said:


> Quarter Horses are very discipline specific these days. The only ones that are good (in my opinion) examples of what the breed is supposed to be are the Race Horses (Dash for Cash), Roping Horses (Driftwood), and Ranch Horses (pick one).
> 
> Because the Quarter Horse show world is so diverse, and people really hone in on what is a winner in that specific show class/sport you don’t see much crossover at all. Reiners and Cutters for example are a very different kind of horse, as much mentally as physically.
> 
> ...


It looks like a very edited photo......but he is certainly very attractive! But would he be just as attractive as a solid chestnut? (Maybe, maybe not?) My only concern is that aren't the Highbrow Cat horses prone to that skin tearing disease? Not saying this particular stallion is, but I recall reading that. There was even a theory that a single copy of the gene is what makes them so flexible and athletic. But he is certainly much better built than the two horses at the beginning of this post, that's for sure.

One thing that always bothers me about a lot of QH's is the big body on the spindly legs and tiny feet. I had a friend with a beautiful QH mare. Well bred, expensive horse. The only thing I would change about her is I think she needed larger bone and feet. Sure enough, the horse was diagnosed with navicular. Correlation? Who knows, but I always felt like QH's in general need more bone and foot for their size. Just about every other breed of horse on the planet has larger foot to body ratio than the QH. Heck, in the photo of the pretty roan it is so edited that you can't even SEE what his feet look like.

The friend's horse I mentioned was probably a good 1200 lbs at least, and she had an "0" sized foot. My chestnut Mustang a few posts above was 14.3 and wore a size "2" when he did wear shoes (I switched him to barefoot). I honestly don't understand why they don't breed QH's just a _little_ heavier boned. I think they would be healthier for it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

He's a nice horse! I haven't ridden any of his offspring, so I'm curious.

Bet Yer Blue Boons was a Freckles Playboy daughter out of a King bred mare. Just goes to show how prolific Freckles Playboy continues to be 35 years later in several disciplines. Amazing horse. If I remember right he still in the top 20 producing maternal grandsires for both reined cow horse and cutting. He has proven to be desirable in the barrel pen as well.

I have a Freckles Playboy grand daughter who is also King bred on the bottom, I bred her to a lesser known HBC stud for a foal this month.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> It looks like a very edited photo......but he is certainly very attractive! But would he be just as attractive as a solid chestnut? (Maybe, maybe not?)


Just to answer your question, cow horse people don't care about color, especially cutters. They prefer a sorrel. The roans came later and it wasn't from breeding for color, it came from having successful horses.




trailhorserider said:


> My only concern is that aren't the Highbrow Cat horses prone to that skin tearing disease? Not saying this particular stallion is, but I recall reading that.


HBC is (N/Hrd) but when bred to a (N/N) there isn't issues.
Bet Hesa Cat, the horse pictured, is 6 panel N/N.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

@jgnmoose
Why do they always hide their feet? Very frustrating!

I'm finding myself leaning more and more into animals with "crossbreed vigour". Dogs and horses alike. 

As far as most modern quarter horses go, I tend to like a cross of "types". Appendix type crossed on cutting/cowhorse or ranch horse makes for nice horses. Ive heard folks talk about the cross of run on cutting/cowhorse being the "magic cross".

People scoff at Hancock bred horses, but I've always enjoyed them. I have a Hancock x appendix mare right now and she's tough as nails, I really enjoy her for what I use horses for. I have two other unregistered Hancock/older style QH (my best speculation, I know the studs were Hancock) mares too. One is an absolute beast of a barrel horse, and the other is only 3, but smart as a whip and has movement to die for.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

@QHriderKE the crosses like you mention can be really good. I had a mare that I’ve talked about on here that was straight Hancock just about on the top side and mostly running bred on the bottom. Solid Bay with almost perfect black feet.

That mare had a temper, she was not cut out for arena work it made her mad. Give her a job in a big open pasture working cows and she couldn’t get enough you could tell she loved doing that. Today she belongs to a cowboy who makes a living looking after cattle for people who don’t have the time. Perfect life for her.

So that’s just an example but I think crosses are just fine for many things people want to do with horses. For the competitive scene people want proven bloodlines that have a shot and that is really all there is to the story.

@trailhorserider I think the stereo type of a Quarter Horse’s size is bigger than they really are on average. In the Performance Horse world there is no advantage to being a big horse, but there is an advantage to being as quick and athletic as possible.

I’m not disagreeing here on the canon bone or hoof size. It would probably take more time and trial and error to get that back that it would be worth. The Driftwood and Hancock horses have great legs and feet that I’ve seen. Correctness for me is as much for me in the angles and proportions, slope of the shoulder etc


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> But I don't see why you can't have color AND conformation.


Well, the main reason is that good horses are hard to breed. Say you have a very flashy-colored horse whose conformation is quite good, and a plain brown horse who has truly superior conformation. Which one will you breed? If you have half a brain you'll breed the flashy one. Because color sells. It sells to the savvy and ignorant alike, where only the experienced will buy a superior but plain-colored horse.So the high-colored horse gets his genes passed on and the superior horse doesn't. Keep choosing that way, and eventually the excellent conformation is going to leave. People will start excusing problems -- "well, all Paints have bad feet, you just have to accept it" blah blah. 

Whenever you hear "why can't we have it all?" -- there are reasons why.


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## fireandicehorse (Nov 21, 2020)

QHriderKE said:


> @jgnmoose
> Why do they always hide their feet? Very frustrating!
> 
> I'm finding myself leaning more and more into animals with "crossbreed vigour". Dogs and horses alike.
> ...


This is part of the reason I love Icelandics as a breed. They have rigorous breeding standards and a scoring system for horses with judge comments so the potential breeder knows exactly what they are getting. 

For example, this is a palomino Icelandic stallion with average scores (7.5 average, breeding quality is above 8, range of 5-10). It shows that he has a great score for mane and tail, and a very good one for canter and walk, but his joint alignment is below average and quite poor, and his pace is the worst quality it can be while still being present (6 minimum and 5 only happens if gait isn't present). The M#s represent the measurements of the horse taken in cm

M1highest withersM2lowest backM3highest croupM4breast depth (highest pt withers to breastbone behind front leg)M5length (pt shoulder to end hindquarters)M6width chest (between pts of shoulders)M7width hips (between hip joints)M8width hips (between points of pelvis)M9min circumference front leg (below front knee)M10max circumference kneeM11width legs & tendons (below front knee)









Here is a picture of the said stallion.















He looks pretty great in the photos, but positive traits, such as color and hair, along with the angle and lighting make him look like a good quality horse when he is not breeding quality. This is why I think it is so important to have an unbiased judge survey potential breeding horses and having a database for all breeds like Worldfengur is to Icelandics so you can see unbiased evaluations of horses. At least he has good feet, though.


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## fireandicehorse (Nov 21, 2020)

Here is an example of the exact opposite thing happening with a horse. This picture of an Icelandic stallion who is the highest judged in the world shows him as quite mundane because of his sleepy posture, lack of fitness, and sonewhat disheveled appearance (this is him in pasture on baby making duty). Also, the way the camera is tilted makes his head look disproportionately large. In reality, he has great conformation.















Here are more flattering pictures of him.


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## fireandicehorse (Nov 21, 2020)

The first stallion has a much prettier color (in my opinion) than the second one (palomino with star vs black tobiano), and if there was not a system in place to educate buyers and breeders on the quality of horses they are interested in, I think you would see a lot more people breeding for flashy horses within Icelandics instead of a good quality horse (as often sadly seen in breeds with little to no good breeding standard). 

The quality of both these stallions is available to the public, though, and the number of offspring reflect this. The first stallion, although born in 2009, has only 3 foals. The second stallion was born in 2012, but has 153 foals (150 more than the first). Because buyers can also look at individual horse stats, it makes actual good quality horses much easier to sell and less people fall into the color trap (though many still do). If you have good horses already, you can easily sprinkle in a little color with the right crossing (as is seen with this buckskin stallion).


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

QHriderKE said:


> Why do they always hide their feet? Very frustrating!


Not all of them! LOL!
Flipping through the QHN Stallion Register, a lot of the pictures are taken on grass or performance pictures but there are several that are on pavement or gravel so you see their feet.
Stallion pics are basically dating profiles. But if you get on the cow horse pages, people ask, "What does so-and-so look like in person?" 
Here's High Brow Cat showing his tootsies-









Something I've been told about HBC breeding, his sons aren't all that big but the size comes out in the grandsons.
Another note, AQHA doesn't recognize the rabicano. The horse is registered under its base color.

Here is Smooth Talkin Style, you can see his feet. He is the sire or grandsire of a big bunch of horses where I work. Fun horses to ride, really feely.












QHriderKE said:


> As far as most modern quarter horses go, I tend to like a cross of "types". Appendix type crossed on cutting/cowhorse or ranch horse makes for nice horses. Ive heard folks talk about the cross of run on cutting/cowhorse being the "magic cross".


I think @jgnmoose sums it up at least for the cowhorse/cutter scene.


jgnmoose said:


> I think crosses are just fine for many things people want to do with horses. For the competitive scene people want proven bloodlines that have a shot and that is really all there is to the story.


But I totally agree for a ranch horse, rope and barrel horse. I love the running crossed on the cow! They are the horses you can cowboy on and take to town.

A friend from CA moved to NV, she has a couple studs she stands to the public. She didn't understand the running horse crossed on the cow, she thought it was a waste. I told her she's missing out an the majority of market of where she's living now. (cowboy country, barrel racing, team roping, ranch rodeo)

No offense to the Hancock lovers, but a lot of guys I know are getting away from them and moving towards the modern run/cow cross for cowboying. HBC can make some bigger colts and same with Peptoboonsmal which is pretty common in cow horse breeding. Some of the cow horse lines work better for the cross than others.
Some lines are great alone for the crossover to barrels or roping, Dual Rey being the first that comes to mind. 
Rocking W, (which is Ruby Buckle nominated), I have ridden a daughter of him and I'd love to try to try one if given the chance.


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

@fireandicehorse It's interesting that you bring up the point that in other countries, there are far stricter breeding standards than the US. I was just thinking of how in DE and NL there are strict stallion approvals, mare performance tests and offspring evaluation. Bit of a governor on the engine so to speak. Even with these protocols in place, there still not immune from breeding for trendy or what's hot. (black dressage horses were all the rage for awhile!) So, I think it's a bit of human nature that we can't really avoid. JMO.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

High Brow Cat isn't in the same universe as that first shown sorrel stallion Isn't High Brow Cat bred for reining?

That diaper-butted one, first photo posted, has such a straight hock as to be non-functional as a using/riding horse. THAT is where breeding for a certain look goes off the rails; when you get horses that can't really do anything. I just don't see horses quite as pure pets, yet, as most dogs are. Dogs used to be bred for using, too, but they've 'graduated' to being pets , for the most part. But it's sad when a dog is bred so big headed that they can't even give birth normally, but require Ceasarian birth.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> High Brow Cat isn't in the same universe as that first shown sorrel stallion Isn't High Brow Cat bred for reining?


No he's not in the same universe as the halter horse pictured in the OP. 
I posted his pic in relation to the the discussion of stallions not showing their feet in their "dating profile".
High Brow Cat was/is a cutting and reined cow horse sire.(he died in 2019 but frozen semen is available)


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

OTE="QHriderKE, post: 1970954479, member: 25615"]
@jgnmoose
Why do they always hide their feet?
[/QUOTE]
Maybe embarassed...


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Lol! I figured someone would say something about the picture.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

The Bad And The Ugly – Halter Horses


For some strange reason I was under the impression that QH Halter horses had moved away from the muscle bound, post-legged creature when HYPP was confirmed to follow these horses’ bloodlines;…




hoovesblog-com.cdn.ampproject.org





This was a decent cover of the topic related to the first.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

QtrBel said:


> The Bad And The Ugly – Halter Horses
> 
> 
> For some strange reason I was under the impression that QH Halter horses had moved away from the muscle bound, post-legged creature when HYPP was confirmed to follow these horses’ bloodlines;…
> ...


This quote I pulled from the above article sums up my feelings (and what I was trying to say rather wordily) nice and neatly:

_*"The real big issues for these halter horses are the lightness of bone and the excessive post-leggedness."*_

Ironically, Impressive wasn't nearly as extreme as today's halter horses. While heavy, he looks like a functional horse you could actually ride, especially if he were fitter than the photo shows. I always assumed he was some sort of monstrosity, but it is clear now that he didn't start the conformation problems, even if HYPP started with him. 

What's up with the "diaper butt" anyway? (On the modern horses, not Impressive, he actually has a decent butt.) Is that a result of the over-straight hocks? Is that in itself a "desirable" look? Maybe a result of steep croup AND straight hocks? It's really odd compared to ANY other horse breed on the planet.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> View attachment 1111773


This ^^^^^ is what I consider a nicely built Quarter Horse. He's muscular and typey but has nice conformation and nice feet and legs. I like him a lot better than the red roan posted near the end of page 1.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Avna said:


> Well, the main reason is that good horses are hard to breed. Say you have a very flashy-colored horse whose conformation is quite good, and a plain brown horse who has truly superior conformation. Which one will you breed? If you have half a brain you'll breed the flashy one. Because color sells. It sells to the savvy and ignorant alike, where only the experienced will buy a superior but plain-colored horse.So the high-colored horse gets his genes passed on and the superior horse doesn't. Keep choosing that way, and eventually the excellent conformation is going to leave. People will start excusing problems -- "well, all Paints have bad feet, you just have to accept it" blah blah.
> 
> Whenever you hear "why can't we have it all?" -- there are reasons why.


While that _may_ be true, I really don't quite buy it. If we can breed nice solid colored horses, we can breed nice patterned horses. Nice patterned horses do exist. If people can't see the conformation for the color that's one thing, but that doesn't make the horses any different to breed. And certainly colored horses don't have the monopoly on bad conformation, the horses at the beginning of this article prove that. 

I guess to answer your question, I would breed them both.....I would have both in my breeding program. I would cross the exceptional colored horses with the truly exceptional solid horses. Sure, there will be a few solid patterned horses as a result perhaps, but that's why there are "breeding stock" Paints. And crossing two flashy horses doesn't necessarily increase your odds of getting a colored foal either. And breeding two flashy horses (frame for instance) can increase your odds of genetic problems (lethal white) as well. There is a whole lot that goes into it. 

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't see why we can't have both.

I always thought a good strategy would be to breed a homozygous tobiano stallion (of very good conformation of course) to quality mares of any color. That would give you very good odds of color AND quality.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

That is where affordability comes in. Those well conformed, performing at elite level, proven whether sire (semen cost) or broodmare (cost of breeding plus proven foals on the ground) and then to be flashy whether color, pattern or variant and stable in what you will get genetically meaning homozygous so unless lethal doubled will be guaranteed to pass means you can ask a pretty penny for breeding. That leaves those that want the flash to breed to the ho hum and not so conformationlly sound to get it. Then they perpetuate it by breeding generations of been there done nothing to keep that color cheap.

Then there is the weirdness of halter and obsessive need to go just a little bit further to attract attention.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

@trailhorserider, you are indeed an optimist. You know the adage, optimists are happy, and pessimists are right? 

Remember my original response to the OP, about how my goat mentor would sell her gaudy-colored goats? She was raised on a ranch, and has successfully bred (as in won competitions with) not just goats but horses, cattle, sheep, and rabbits. Breeding is what she does for a living and has for fifty years. She wasn't being frivolous, she was speaking from lifelong experience. 

I saw this in dog breeding, and trust me, those dog breeders said EXACTLY what you are saying. "Why can't I have these colors and markings and hair coat and conformation that please me visually, and also breed for working qualities? Frankly, it was perfectly infuriating because that mindset virtually destroyed the very qualities that made the breed so valued.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

4horses said:


> I googled QH stallions, and came across these horses. My question is why are people breeding for this?


Probably the same reason why some folks (men and women) partake in body building.

Not my cup of tea to see 8-pack abs on a female, but to each his own I guess.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

Another questions - Considering the "legendary" stallions, why have many popular breeds deviated from what was once treasured?

Zippo Pine Bar popped to the top of my head as far as AQHA western pleasure horses go, but I could only find a picture of his son, Zips Chocolate Chip. He still has a big booty and some pretty upright pasterns, but he looks usable still (and not ridiculously photoshopped!).









And for Arabians, I don't think I could find a more perfect example of the Arabian breed than Bask (who is found in MANY pedigrees of horses around today). What a beautiful head that isn't obnoxiously dished. If I found a modern day Arabian that looked like him, I would buy it in a heartbeat.









And for Thoroughbreds, Secretariat. What a beautiful example of a horse. I look at a lot of ads of OTTB's, and very few look as substantial as Secretariat. Of course he was built to run, but I think he could have been successful no matter which direction he went. Also, with my limited research, he retired sound.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Hopefully this will work and there will be a photo of Zippo Pine Bar








This would be one of my favorites
Boston Mac


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

ClearDonkey...
Secretariat did retire sound...he developed laminitis years later and that is what ultimately euthanized him...
He was a incredible athlete as were his get...
First generation were the pits for racers, but as riding horses they excelled in many disciplines English, not sure western.
His first foal was actually a beautiful App..
It was Secretariats second crop and those after those that again returned to racing as winners and still today carry on the bloodline of winners.
They still make some spectacular babies too.
I had a friend who had a Secretariat grand-baby...looked nearly identical to grand-daddy. He was gorgeous and knew it!! Movement incredible he loved to do dressage and jump and did both well...not sure he is still alive today as he was think 5 - 6 in 1987 would make him very old indeed...
I rode Secretariats stable pony as a kid taking lessons...same gorgeous copper coat, markings but a Quarter Horse...
Pretty horse...
I also got to ride some of his grand-babies as riding horses not racers.. 
I found them to be fun rides. Smart and very scopey athletic to ride...kept you on your toes or in the dirt with a face-plant. 
I met Penny Chenery many, many years ago. A beautiful lady who loved her horses, specially "Red"...she left quite a impression on me.

With this...holy cow how this "critique these QH for confirmation" has strayed..._my apologies to the original poster for straying your thread..._😚
🐴...


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> High Brow Cat isn't in the same universe as that first shown sorrel stallion Isn't High Brow Cat bred for reining?
> 
> That diaper-butted one, first photo posted, has such a straight hock as to be non-functional as a using/riding horse. THAT is where breeding for a certain look goes off the rails; when you get horses that can't really do anything. I just don't see horses quite as pure pets, yet, as most dogs are. Dogs used to be bred for using, too, but they've 'graduated' to being pets , for the most part. But it's sad when a dog is bred so big headed that they can't even give birth normally, but require Ceasarian birth.



Diaper Butted!!!! BAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!!

I actually like the big butt on the quarter horse. That one has actually been a big earner (over $2M). I doubt he's making any money now though since he is NH (HYPP) and since AQHA has recently changed the rules... Also - as you were talking about what he would feel like or how he would function for riding - you are right. Yes you can ride a halter horse, but those big butted Impressive types don't move well unless they are mixed with something that is athletic.

I don't like big butt tiny hoof quarter horses... I like the big thick original shape of the QH. And I actually am a fan of High Brow Cat (He was a cutting horse) and Zips Chocolate Chip.


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## fireandicehorse (Nov 21, 2020)

trailhorserider said:


> While that _may_ be true, I really don't quite buy it. If we can breed nice solid colored horses, we can breed nice patterned horses. Nice patterned horses do exist. If people can't see the conformation for the color that's one thing, but that doesn't make the horses any different to breed. And certainly colored horses don't have the monopoly on bad conformation, the horses at the beginning of this article prove that.
> 
> I guess to answer your question, I would breed them both.....I would have both in my breeding program. I would cross the exceptional colored horses with the truly exceptional solid horses. Sure, there will be a few solid patterned horses as a result perhaps, but that's why there are "breeding stock" Paints. And crossing two flashy horses doesn't necessarily increase your odds of getting a colored foal either. And breeding two flashy horses (frame for instance) can increase your odds of genetic problems (lethal white) as well. There is a whole lot that goes into it.
> 
> ...


I completely agree. I think by turning a blind eye to color and instead breeding for quality horses, high quality colorful horses will become more common with time as long as the color genes never truly go away.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

The importance of color really depends on what the horse is for. Something flashy will always be that something extra that people want. In some disciplines the “look” is just part of the breeding which is what people are shooting for.

Two examples of sons of famous Stallions bred for what they can do not how they look.

Metallic Cat
















HF Mobster


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

I didn’t read all of the responses yet, but I wanted to chime in anyways. My answer is “nothing.” I personally dislike making general rules or following them because they fail to take so much into consideration. As far as breeding horses goes, if someone wants some odd bred atrocity, more power to them if they are willing to deal with the consequences. It’s not anyone else’s right to judge.

I don’t like the looks of halter horses, but I had a Jackie Bee grandson, who often produces halter horses (although also roping horses and using horses), and he was a good solid horse. He did end up with ringbone early due to his mass on tiny feet. Had I realized the conformation defect I wouldn’t have bought him, but I did accept the consequences. We had an Impressive mare once too, and she was a long term ranch mare who ended up with cancer eye and being put down for that. She lasted many years though and was a dependable mare. She wasn’t anyone’s favorite, but she did work.

I have a little mustang filly. I couldn’t imagine wanting to breed her, but who’s to say she doesn’t become the best horse I’ve owned and I decide to cross her with a cowhorse? I don’t imagine that would ever be a choice I would make, but I don’t think anyone should have the right to judge me for it if I did.

To each their own.

I do think the breeding standards someone mentioned would be a good solution though. It isn’t a rule or a judgement, but it provides an easily seen review.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

I think the absolute best thing would be implementing breed standards and for judges to actually stick to them at shows, ESPECIALLY world show level. What wins is what is in demand. The unfortunate thing is that a conformation-monstrosity can be a wonderful under-saddle horse (well, until it becomes unsound).

I don't know how the world could revolutionize breed standards and expectations...I know my #1 priority with buying a horse is long-term soundness, not just soundness in the few years it's in the show ring. My half-Arab is still sound at 23, and performing as he did at 10. Meanwhile the 10 year old QH (that has HORRID leg conformation) at my barn seems to be dead-lame every other week, requires special shoeing, injections, etc etc (and it's still lame half the time!). You would think that longevity would be prioritized when breeding for a foal, but I truly think that is something that is on the backburner. Instead it's what will win and sell NOW.

It frustrates me to no end.

Denny Emerson recently posted about how many foundation Morgan fans are upset at how the Morgan breed has evolved (especially revolving around how light bodied many of the show-ring Morgans have become). I don't think it's necessarily bad to breed traits in for a specific discipline, but looking at the horses below, I see one that is clearly a Morgan and one that could be confused for an Arabian or Saddlebred...

Foundation-bred Morgan:









ECP Anchor Man, a featured stud on the Morgan website:


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Knave said:


> if someone wants some odd bred atrocity, more power to them if they are willing to deal with the consequences. It’s not anyone else’s right to judge.


I'm loath to judge people on all sorts of things I disagree on, including 'fashions' of breeding. And many things are done in ignorance - I can understand that too. But if you are going to _knowingly_ take things to the extreme that the animal suffers for it, you bet your bottom dollar I will judge you, and I will judge people who don't care whether others knowingly cause suffering to animals too.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah cleardonkey, the Morgan's I've seen here look nothing like the first eg, but more like the second, indistinguishable from arabs.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I thought the answer to the OP question was actually self evident. Money. People bred selfishly and unscrupulously when they can make money from it. You can't even blame the breeders - after all they are just fulfilling a market niche.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Yes agree, 'money' is the no brainer one word answer, just that we took it further. But I sooo disagree that 'you can't blame breeders' if they're knowingly doing this - that's like saying don't blame sweatshop owners for treating/paying their staff terribly because there's a market for cheap clothes. For that matter, don't blame drug dealers, dope growers, because there's a market. Why on earth should we not 'blame' someone who _chooses_ to breed an animal, at the expense of the animal/breed?? Again, ignorance is one thing I can understand & forgive - if you just don't realise these 'conformation traits' are bad for the horse or such, that's one thing, but if people are educated, know the probs they're perpetuating, whether as a buyer or breeder(or show judge), you ARE perpetuating the problem knowingly, which imho very much equals blame.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

COWCHICK77 said:


> No he's not in the same universe as the halter horse pictured in the OP.
> I posted his pic in relation to the the discussion of stallions not showing their feet in their "dating profile".
> High Brow Cat was/is a cutting and reined cow horse sire.(he died in 2019 but frozen semen is available)


My friend's reining horse is one of his get, I think. or grandson? not sure. This Cat got a Gun.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I think its a chicken or the egg situation Loosie. I shouldn't have said the breeders aren't the problem, what I should have said is that breeders are only half the problem!

Do consumers drive the market or the producers? Every person that buys into that breed standard, has a mare serviced, buys semen etc justifies the breeders choices. When the argument is "hey, I'm just giving the people what they want!" AND it's TRUE! Then I think that those supporting this heinous breeding ethic should cop as much of the blame as the breeder. You can't tell me that every person who buys a service from that stallion is ignorant of horse conformation issues and that it's only the breeders that are 'knowingly' perpetuating this travesty! People spend big money on pedigree blood lines to make big money. At the end of the day money drives both ends of the problem.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

As long as we have shows and the focus is on showing only and not having a working animal vs having a working animal that shows then there will be these extremes. Opening up.a performance halter class is one way to get back to conformational soundness but it didn't close the door on the other because of the money involved.


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

ClearDonkey said:


> I think the absolute best thing would be implementing breed standards and for judges to actually stick to them at shows, ESPECIALLY world show level. What wins is what is in demand. The unfortunate thing is that a conformation-monstrosity can be a wonderful under-saddle horse (well, until it becomes unsound).
> 
> I don't know how the world could revolutionize breed standards and expectations...I know my #1 priority with buying a horse is long-term soundness, not just soundness in the few years it's in the show ring. My half-Arab is still sound at 23, and performing as he did at 10. Meanwhile the 10 year old QH (that has HORRID leg conformation) at my barn seems to be dead-lame every other week, requires special shoeing, injections, etc etc (and it's still lame half the time!). You would think that longevity would be prioritized when breeding for a foal, but I truly think that is something that is on the backburner. Instead it's what will win and sell NOW.
> 
> ...


I feel a little bit the same about how the Andalusians/PRE have changed.

They've become a very popular competitive dressage horse and therefore breeders have shifted the horse from a classicly Baroque horse, to a more modern build. To the point that I feel the Spanish look is fading away. It used to be easy to pick an Andalusian out of a mass of horses, now I find myself thinking, "I wonder if that horse has Spanish blood somewhere?" 

The short coupled, agile, master of the haute ecole is being re-shaped for a more competitive arena that plays to the strengths of the ever popular and successful warmblood. 
There's been more focus on breeding for exotic colors too. In the 80s & 90s the Andalusian was known to be 3 colors, with the population at 80% grey, 15% bay and 5% black. Chestnut, double dilutes, smoky colors are now all the rage. 

I don't blame people for wanting an Andalusian as a mount in the dressage court. They are sensitive yet sensible, forgiving and possess a loving temperament--but when the breed starts to _not_ display these qualities, what's the point anymore?


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

@loosie I’ve been trying to think of how to respond to what you said about judging me for not caring. Here’s what I think. A person who breeds a halter horse, who is to that extent extreme in the competitive world, probably spends a ton of time with that horse, babying him and giving him everything under the sun. I’m sure the stud in that photo is highly well taken care of. He probably is more comfortable and contented with his life than many of the horses owned by the regular person.

The barrel horse had nothing I could see wrong with it, and again, probably is highly prioritized.

Someone mentioned dogs with big heads, requiring cesarean birth. Obviously those dogs are getting the medical care for such, or the problem would be self solving.

Yes, I doubt the halter horse would remain sound for a life of ranch work, but truly, that’s not the life he is given. He likely is quite happy in his own life.

That’s why I don’t see any right for anyone to judge them. Probably it isn’t knowledgeable breeding that makes for bad livelihoods.


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