# strap from bridle to breast collar



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

Tie Down, or Standing Martingale in the english sphere.
They can be used to keep an excited horse from getting its head too high. I personally think they are used way too much. In all my years riding i have only used them in 2 instances:
1. Early stages of retraining a horse who would star-gaze (put his head WAY high and tilt it to the side, like he was looking at the sky)
2. Polo, for the rider's safety.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

karliejaye said:


> Tie Down, or Standing Martingale in the english sphere.
> They can be used to keep an excited horse from getting its head too high. I personally think they are used way too much. In all my years riding i have only used them in 2 instances:
> 1. Early stages of retraining a horse who would star-gaze (put his head WAY high and tilt it to the side, like he was looking at the sky)
> 2. Polo, for the rider's safety.


I'm going to add a correction to your response. 

If the OP saw these being used at a *rodeo*, it was most likely a nose *tie-down* (which is different from a head setting tie-down, and is different from a german martingale or running martingale). 











When a roping horse goes to make a hard stop, they will need something to brace on and help balance themselves. That is the purpose of the tie down for a roping horse. 

Yes people will use them to "keep a horse's nose in" but in my opinion, that is the wrong way to use them. *Training* is what should control your horse's nose ... not a tie down (or anything else for that matter). They can be useful tools for certain things, but they should never be used as a crutch for proper training. 

The OP might have possibly also seen a tie down used on a barrel horse. While in most cases a barrel horse does not need a tie down (and again, they are sometimes used incorrectly) there are a few select horses that will run barrels better with a tie down (or other similar aids) because they can use the extra balance help.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

beau, I love you're posts! So informative. I am new to Western Riding and didn't realize there were 2 types. Thanks for the clarification.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

beau159 said:


> I'm going to add a correction to your response.
> 
> If the OP saw these being used at a *rodeo*, it was most likely a nose *tie-down* (which is different from a head setting tie-down, and is different from a german martingale or running martingale).
> 
> ...


nailed it 

Thanks Beau

All of the roping horses were wearing one, and most of the barrel horses were wearing the same thing --- i thought it might have been some sort of bucking strap to keep them from rearing ... but when i looked up bucking strap, turns out i was wrong wrong


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

In addition to what Beau already said (which was completely correct), the added benefit on roping horses is that they can use it to brace against to tighten the muscles in their back in preparation for the hard hit of the calf. 

Think of it like being punched in the stomach. If you are prepared and can flex your abs, the hit is much easier to take than if you are caught unawares with your belly flabby :wink:.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

smrobs said:


> In addition to what Beau already said (which was completely correct), the added benefit on roping horses is that they can use it to brace against to tighten the muscles in their back in preparation for the hard hit of the calf.
> 
> Think of it like being punched in the stomach. If you are prepared and can flex your abs, the hit is much easier to take than if you are caught unawares with your belly flabby :wink:.


is there any other reason to use them other than when roping or doing something of that nature?


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## sorral3 (Jun 7, 2013)

its a crutch for poor training and bad hands. My horses do anything from roping to running, and I do run them around barrels, and don't ever need the tie down. Horsemanship is not stressed at all in rodeo events, its what ever it takes to get a winning run. 

I don't even call them cowboys, I usually say "rodeo contestants". Cowboys know how to ride and train horses.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

jmike said:


> is there any other reason to use them other than when roping or doing something of that nature?


IMHO, no. And it's like Beau said, probably 80+% of people who use them are using them wrong or have them adjusted wrong. I've seen many that are adjusted too tight so the horse cannot even walk with their head/neck relaxed and I've seen many adjusted too loose so that they have no effect at all, regardless of where the horse has his head.


As for what sorral3 said, IMHO, that's only somewhat correct. There are too many people who use them as a crutch, but that doesn't mean that they don't serve a true, correct, useful purpose.

My Dad used to train and compete show/rodeo/trail/ranch/everything horses, he used a tie down on many of his horses while they were roping because it was easier on their body for them to be able to brace and absorb some of that impact.

Nobody who ever saw him ride would think for one moment that they were "nothing but a crutch to cover up bad hands". He showed AQHA for almost 30 years and whatever show he went to, someone would approach him and ask him to help fill up a class to make it worth more points. He could take any of his roping horses and show them in WP or reining or working cow horse and usually end up at the very least placing in the top 5....if he didn't just bring home the win LOL. At some big show in the mid 80s, someone asked him to help fill a barrel class. He took a mare that had been a failed cutting horse that he got and retrained to be a roping horse and entered the class. She had never seen a barrel before and he took home 3rd in a rather large class.

So, no, they aren't _always_ a bandaid, but many people do use them that way.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

jmike said:


> is there any other reason to use them other than when roping or doing something of that nature?


As smrobs already said, there are other reasons to use one, but most people aren't using the _correct_ reason. 

A standard nose tie down can come in leather (use this when you want the horse to lean into it, like with roping), rope, or cable (use this when you want the horse to stay OFF it). 










There's also a "head setter" tie down. Rather than going over the nose, this goes around the ears. Some barrel racers use this to keep a horse on their butt in a turn. I myself personally don't find any valid use for it, IMO.










There's a few variations of a German martingale. If I am going to use something to help a horse understand where to put its head, this is my choice. 










And a few variations:









Running martingales have a similar function. However, I personally don't like them. This picture shows exactly why I don't like them (they don't do anything!)











All of these are tools that can be used correctly, or incorrectly. Most people use them incorrectly, unfortunately. 

Most of the time, with good TRAINING on your horse, you don't need these aids unless you are doing something event specific (like roping).


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The English standing martingale goes from noseband to girth. The western one is basically the same except it may be either free of the breastcollar or attached. The breastcollar is attached to the girth.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

I see a lot of people using tie downs for trail riding. In fact a lot of my riding buddies won't ride without one. Why?, no reason other than that's what they've always done. Doesn't matter that they know that horses have drowned on river crossings when they hit a deep hole because they couldn't get their head up. 

I was watching a rodeo on TV earlier this summer and was surprised and quite pleased to see most of the barrel racers not using one.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

smrobs said:


> In addition to what Beau already said (which was completely correct), the added benefit on roping horses is that they can use it to brace against to tighten the muscles in their back in preparation for the hard hit of the calf.
> 
> Think of it like being punched in the stomach. If you are prepared and can flex your abs, the hit is much easier to take than if you are caught unawares with your belly flabby :wink:.



I am curious how, physically, having a tie down to brace against helps them tighten their abdominal muscles. or , is that just part of your analogy? which muscles do they need to have tightened in preperation for the jerk of the calf hitting the end of the rope?

let's see . . . . . .if they lift their neck upward, to exert upward force against the downward force of the tie down, which muscles area actually used?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Saddlebag said:


> The English standing martingale goes from noseband to girth. The western one is basically the same except it may be either free of the breastcollar or attached. The breastcollar is attached to the girth.


\

here's an image of an English standing martingale. 










the neck strap just keeps it from looping out too far. the force goes to the girth, which is pretty much the same as a Western tie down.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> I am curious how, physically, having a tie down to brace against helps them tighten their abdominal muscles. or , is that just part of your analogy? which muscles do they need to have tightened in preperation for the jerk of the calf hitting the end of the rope?
> 
> let's see . . . . . .if they lift their neck upward, to exert upward force against the downward force of the tie down, which muscles area actually used?


It's the muscles in their back. Reread the first paragraph of smrobs response.


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

beau159 said:


> Running martingales have a similar function. However, I personally don't like them. This picture shows exactly why I don't like them (they don't do anything!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I totally agree about not needing them when you train, unless specific. 

Running martingale is actually really NOT supposed to do anything. It is there as a safety precaution. I was taught that we use it for horses, who might have a tendency to raise their heads too high, "gaze in the sky". You put it on, and the moment they raise their head, the reins are no longer a straight line, they get "broken" and then the pressure on the bit changes - it becomes downward pressure. However, that also helps with giving less pressure to their mouth at that moment (safety pin for those who cannot control their hands.)

Google says:
_When the horse raises its head above the desired point, the running martingale adds leverage through the reins to the bit on the bars of the horse's mouth. The leverage created by this pressure encourages the horse to lower its head. A running martingale provides more freedom for the horse than a standing martingale, as the rider can release pressure as soon as the desired result is achieved. Additionally, if a horse happens to trip on landing after a fence, the rider can loosen the reins and the horse will have full use of its head and neck._

So ye, when jumping, riding correctly on the flat, the running martingale is NOT supposed to do anything..


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> It's the muscles in their back. Reread the first paragraph of smrobs response.



I am just trying to think about which muscles are actually engaged when the horse lifts upward and pulls against the tie down and how that translates to hardening the back muscles.


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## skiafoxmorgan (Mar 5, 2014)

I've always thought of the running martingale to be a bandaid, too, for poor hand position. If I rider has a tendency to raise his or her hands, the martingale keeps the rein pressure at the same angle. Of course, I've never used one, so I only know what I've read about them or sussed out by observation. 

I used a tie-down on my barrel horse because he did benefit from leaning into it. I never used it otherwise. 

More recently, a friend bought a $350 auction horse. When she got her home, we found that the mare jigged constantly and if she wasn't in motion at at least a trot or gait (Missouri Fox Trotter), she threw her head violently. **** near smashed my face once. Put a tie down on her, and she instantly stopped and became an INCREDIBLE trail mount. Not great for quiet, on the farm hacking, as she'd jig and dance, but point her nose out to the road or trail and she settled in quite happily. Swear to god, if I were ready to buy a horse, I'd consider her seriously for an endurance horse. I'd need to send her to a trainer to get a better handle on her, but that little mare had endless go and was almost unflappable.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Cherrij said:


> I totally agree about not needing them when you train, unless specific.
> 
> Running martingale is actually really NOT supposed to do anything. It is there as a safety precaution. I was taught that we use it for horses, who might have a tendency to raise their heads too high, "gaze in the sky". You put it on, and the moment they raise their head, the reins are no longer a straight line, they get "broken" and then the pressure on the bit changes - it becomes downward pressure. However, that also helps with giving less pressure to their mouth at that moment (safety pin for those who cannot control their hands.)
> 
> ...


Your response all the more proves why I don't like running martingales. 

If your horse has the tendency to raise it's head to the sky, _use proper training_ to teach it to give to the bit and soften, and lower their head. If you are using a running martingale for the purpose of keeping your horse's head down when the horse puts its head up, then you are using it as a band-aid or a crutch. 

If you can't control your hands and need a running martingale to control your hands, you've got bigger problems to worry about.


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## jmike (Aug 21, 2013)

wow -- you guys are a wealth of information
that is a lot to take in  

i would think the tie down would allow them more to brace in a certain position, rather than against something.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> I am just trying to think about which muscles are actually engaged when the horse lifts upward and pulls against the tie down and how that translates to hardening the back muscles.


Tiny, it's the big muscles that run along either side of the spine, where the bars of the saddle sit. They aren't just bracing upward, but also out with their nose.


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## Cherrij (Jan 30, 2013)

beau159 said:


> Your response all the more proves why I don't like running martingales.
> 
> If your horse has the tendency to raise it's head to the sky, _use proper training_ to teach it to give to the bit and soften, and lower their head. If you are using a running martingale for the purpose of keeping your horse's head down when the horse puts its head up, then you are using it as a band-aid or a crutch.
> 
> If you can't control your hands and need a running martingale to control your hands, you've got bigger problems to worry about.


That is why I never use it, unless my trainer has claimed that the particular horse needs it. I have used it a few times for keeping the saddle in place, but that martingale didn't have removable rein straps (the ones that connect to reins), but had the buckles to the saddle and worked as a breast collar. Now I have one that I can just use as a breast collar without the martingale part, but even that one is not needed. 

A lot of young people in our competitions use them, because it is the teenagers who mainly ride those horses and they get agitated in competitions and the kids just cannot control them and to avoid damage to the mouth and raising the head too high running martingales are used, as tie downs cannot be used for jumping, the running martingale is the only "band-aid' that can be used safely.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

I have never heard of a running Martingale being used to cover up bad hands...that's a bit far fetched I think.

They are more of an emergency tool so you don't get your nose broken if the horse flings its head in the air. I wouldn't judge people to harshly for using them on a jumping horse if you don't have experience with that sort of event.

That being said...a lot of people use them for the "look".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equitate (Dec 14, 2012)

Running martigales PROPERLY fitted are only a leverage if the horse bolts. When they are used the rings should be lifted straight up, and they should be level with the point of the hips. So, hacking out they can be used as a pulley if needed.

Standing martingales are imho useless (for jumping). IF they are short enough to prevent head tossing/etc then the horse cannot bascule properly, and if they are long enough to allow bascule they are useless to prevent much.

German martingales are really rather like draw reins, they are meant for assisting in lateral flexilbity (on certain stiff horses) and have little effect otherwise.

Proper training includes the ability to mobilize the jaw, and to work into the hand but still be up/open/iFv/active/etc. The horse should NOT 'give to the bit' longitudinally. That is a misunderstanding which leads to the uses of all these devices (improperly).
If the horse is hollowing/too much iFv/etc then it the rider which must change the effects of the aids/equitation/(likely hands) so that the horse will work into them. Usually riding on curved lines (with timed aids) is the best idea. LATERAL FLEXIBILITY is the key to LONGITUDINAL balance/flexion over TIME.


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## Spiritandjuniper4711 (Apr 12, 2014)

I want to add something about the tie down. I know a barrel racer that is very successful - and she doesn't particularly like tie downs, but on one of her horses I rode, you HAD to use a tie down on him. He was trained well and was the type of horse you could go gallop through a field with nothing but a halter on him and count on him to stop when you asked. When you would get in that arena, he would need something to brace against when going around the barrels. It was not a training Problem at all. That is one example of a barrel horse needing a tie down


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> I am curious how, physically, having a tie down to brace against helps them tighten their abdominal muscles. or , is that just part of your analogy? which muscles do they need to have tightened in preperation for the jerk of the calf hitting the end of the rope?
> 
> let's see . . . . . .if they lift their neck upward, to exert upward force against the downward force of the tie down, which muscles area actually used?


_(reply) Tiny, it's the big muscles that run along either side of the spine, where the bars of the saddle sit. They aren't just bracing upward, but also out with their nose. 
_
Hmm, the way I see it is, if the horse tightens his back, his neck is more likely to _drop_, as in reining stops, or cutting. I believe that most roping horses are tacked up with tie-downs out of tradition/habit. The bracing occurs in the shoulders--- and we know QH have immensely powerful shoulders--- and I believe there is actually a hollowing of the back before the quarters jump in for the stop, or turn (if heading.)


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Beling, you're talking 2 completely different things here between reining and roping. A reining horse sure looks pretty with that head dropped down in his stops, but a roping horse has to prepare to absorb the impact of a cow that weighs anywhere from 200 to 900 pounds already running at 10-20 mph. If something like that hit a reining horse in a stop, they'd get yanked halfway across the arena.

Until you've seen up close and person or rode a performance roping (team or calf roping) horse and seen exactly what happens to a horse with a tie-down while roping and without, it can be hard to wrap your head around exactly _how_ it works, just take my word that it does. I've spent my entire life around roping horses.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

Smrobs, I totally hear what you are saying! So similar to a horse jumping, it sounds like. Horses only have so much topline or length between their nose, up over their poll, and to their tail. If they really need to sit down, their head will come up. So what you are saying makes so much sense to me and I certainly take your word for it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

The things I learn on this forum that I never even THOUGHT of before! But in general, I don't like to just "take someone's word for it." And I'm not at all convinced roping is comparable to jumping. 

I kept thinking about what happens when a horse braces against the weight of a steer, and after examining a lot of YouTubes & thinking about the local ropers, I can see there's a lot of variance in how riders ride, and how their horses are trained, the length of the tie-down, etc. which naturally affects how their horses move.

In general, calf-roping involves less weight than team roping, I think. Still, I feel this video shows a very good example of how the tie-down comes into play. It seems quite minimal, in fact, and the horse is NOT relying on his shoulders, but stopping from behind. (I also enjoy the fact that this horse's sire is my little one's granddad! Her sire was a buckskin, too.)

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread!


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