# Mucking out--can't get it just right



## littlebird (Jan 22, 2014)

For some people nothing anyone else ever does will ever be perfect. My tip, without knowing the whole situation, is to have your 12 year old move to a more positive and less-nit-picky environment if that is possible or to stop mucking out for this person who will probably never be satisfied.

My experience mucking out for people is this: every place seems to have a different standard. Some places are big on conserving as much bedding as possible and some places are more into having a super clean stall.


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## bkylem (Sep 21, 2013)

There is no such thing as a perfectly mucked stall. The BO is just being an unappreciative and unkind individual. Your daughter is volunteering for goodness sakes! You cannot muck without picking up a small amount of bedding. Scoop, sift and move on. There is no real trick to it. I will simply rake towards the wall or corner and then scoop it up(after first picking up the good dry bedding and moving it away). When it's wet, you are naturally going to pick up more bedding. I also volunteer and the BO is just glad to have my help.
Your BO is just being a B in my opinion.

My best to your daughter and don't let her feel bad.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

Highly critical and won't offer to show her how she wants her stalls done...time for your daughter to move on and not beat herself up.

So...that said...
She could try this way...I use to work for the biggest anal PITA boss about stalls...

Muck fork and wheelbarrow at the ready, now go in and take the horse out so the stall is empty and safer for her to work in. Put that horse on cross-ties or another stall, in a t/o but out...
So, in the stall she goes...now go pick up the manure she sees easily. Once on the fork she gently sifts side to side so the shavings stay in the stall and only manure goes in the wheelbarrow.
Do the entire stall this way. 
_Work in a circle that way you always are double-checking your work.
_Now once all easily seen is removed she will start to gently scoop and toss against the stall wall causing the manure to roll out, down and easily scooped up, sift again out the shavings...dump in the wheelbarrow.
_All the way around the stall._
She will now see that wet spot to scoop and toss out. Even if she digs and splats the wet spot she can easily see it and feel the weight of it and scoop and toss it away...
Once that is done she gently starts to pull down a small amount of bedding from the wall at a time...any manure she sees, scoop, sift and toss.
It will take time till she gets a rhythm and comfortable handling cleaning and tossing shavings...
She will though have clean and dry stalls with no hidden wet spots or manure balls.

*If that doesn't please her "boss", tell "the boss" she can clean her own stalls!!*
:wink:


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

It has to be just so because.....? Horses are pooping and peeing on it?


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

bkylem said:


> There is no such thing as a perfectly mucked stall. The BO is just being an unappreciative and unkind individual. Your daughter is volunteering for goodness sakes! You cannot muck without picking up a small amount of bedding. Scoop, sift and move on. There is no real trick to it. I will simply rake towards the wall or corner and then scoop it up(after first picking up the good dry bedding and moving it away). When it's wet, you are naturally going to pick up more bedding. I also volunteer and the BO is just glad to have my help.
> Your BO is just being a B in my opinion.
> 
> My best to your daughter and don't let her feel bad.


I have a feeling the BO is glad to have her around, but she just can't help herself--maybe perfectionism, and such.

The reasons my daughter wants to be there--she also takes lessons there (each lesson is paid, there's no discount or anything like that) and she loves how this BO teaches. From what I've seen, the BO is very positive and encouraging and knows how to push just enough, and my daughters loves it (especially after several less experienced instructors.) 

Daughter says she's very different during her volunteer time. Not as encouraging and positive at all. She is not rude or mean or abusive, she's just very matter of fact and nit picky and keeps talking about her very high standards. 

Basically right now we are trying to decide whether to persevere there and volunteer, or to just take lessons there. The barn is very calm and drama-free so this is a plus as well. 

I've asked the BO myself several times, and I'm not sure what to make of her reaction. I'd usually say, "How's my daughter doing? She really wants to do a good job for you but is worried she isn't improving." 

And the BO would say, "Oh yeah she's eager to learn. She'll get it eventually. She is not exactly the fastest, ha ha." 

So I can see that she is not super pleased, but not really displeased either. She started volunteering there after a barn hand left, so the BO really needed help. Now she might not need that much help and sometimes there's another person there as well (I'm not sure whether paid or volunteer).


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

horselovinguy said:


> Highly critical and won't offer to show her how she wants her stalls done...time for your daughter to move on and not beat herself up.
> 
> So...that said...
> She could try this way...I use to work for the biggest anal PITA boss about stalls...
> ...


Thank you!!! This is very helpful. Maybe indeed she lacks an efficient system and the BO can't verbalize and explain it. I'm going to print it out for her and ask her how it compares to what she does. 

How long does this method take per stall? The stalls are big (not sure of the size, but bigger than I normally see.) The BO says it should take about 8 minutes per stall. It does take my daughter longer at the moment. 

The horses are usually out when she comes, unless it is bad weather, and then they move horses to empty stalls while she mucks. This barn is very strict on safety, so she is not allowed to muck if a horse is in the stall.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

I use to do 14'x14' boxes with 8-10" deep of bedding at least.
My stalls were completely turned every day, dry and clean is a understatement.
Once I found a rhythm and comfortable doing my stalls it took about 15 minutes start to completion with fresh bedding added. Normal cleaning, about 10 minutes...
Oh... I _wasn't _a "kid" either but a late teen or twenties at the time so my size was considerably more and more strength...

As for doing them on a "volunteer" basis and still paying full-freight for lessons...
_Don't do that to yourself or your daughter please._
She/you earn the right to a discount on what is paid for a lesson, some kind words of encouragement and since "the boss" isn't paying her _who cares how long it takes!!_
I think you are being taken advantage of with what you now disclose... your daughter is saving "the boss" a salary, and still paying full-price for lessons....*"NO!"*

Go back to going for lessons, enjoying your ride time and the "doting" instructor not the hag who has not a nice word for her free labor!!

Sorry...the golden goose just laid a BIG FART of an egg...
:-(_..yup, my opinion!
_


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

horselovinguy said:


> I use to do 14'x14' boxes with 8-10" deep of bedding at least.
> My stalls were completely turned every day, dry and clean is a understatement.
> Once I found a rhythm and comfortable doing my stalls it took about 15 minutes start to completion with fresh bedding added. Normal cleaning, about 10 minutes...
> Oh... I _wasn't _a "kid" either but a late teen or twenties at the time so my size was considerably more and more strength...
> ...


Thanks! 

I'm ambivalent about this, to be honest. I guess I'm not super confident that her contribution is that valuable and I don't know how to ask for things. When she first started, I knew this BO had high standards and that she will have a lot to learn before being actually useful. There's training and supervision involved. It wasn't the right moment to talk about any kind of reimbursement. 

Right now it takes her probably 20 minutes to do a stall, if not the whole 30--due to her not being as strong as the BO, and probably not having a system, and doing the same spots several times because she's worried she missed things. Daughter says she still can't sift as effectively and fast as the BO. 

She does about 4-5 stalls on a good day. She'd gladly do more (and has done more) but if there's another helper there she get to the stalls quicker and to my daughter's disappointment (ha ha, seriously, she gets disappointed if she doesn't do enough stalls) she doesn't have more than 4 stalls left. 

And then the BO walks into each stall and does a light sifting to check it. And it is never a "good job."

So realistically speaking, at the moment my daughter "saves" her what, an hour of work? Not much. I'd feel awkward to even ask for any kind of reimbursement for this. Yeah, technically every couple of months she could have a freebie lesson. I'm not comfortable even mentioning this. 

I think if the BO is a decent person eventually she might offer something like that herself--when daughter is actually able to be of more help. On the other hand, if her MO is to be perpetually somewhat critical, then maybe this is how she safe guards herself from ever giving a free lesson--the volunteer contribution is never up to her standard. Tricky.

I printed out your steps (thank you again!) and I'll see what daughter says about her own method and how it compares, and we will see if the BO will notice the difference.

Then we'll reassess. Daughter loves many aspects of being there, loves learning new things, just loves being around horses. The only problem is that she's becoming insecure about whether she's doing a good job, and desperately wanting to do a better job.


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## littlebird (Jan 22, 2014)

horselovinguy said:


> As for doing them on a "volunteer" basis and still paying full-freight for lessons...
> _Don't do that to yourself or your daughter please._
> She/you earn the right to a discount on what is paid for a lesson, some kind words of encouragement and since "the boss" isn't paying her _who cares how long it takes!!_
> I think you are being taken advantage of with what you now disclose... your daughter is saving "the boss" a salary, and still paying full-price for lessons....*"NO!"*
> ...


THIS! I completely agree with what horselovingguy said. You daughter does not need to clean stalls if you are paying full price for lessons. It's great that she wants to help, but I just can't see what she's getting out of it besides being constantly beaten down (not in a malicious way, but never receiving approval can be harsh for a 12 year-old). Cleaning stalls is a great experience and doing it efficiently is a great skill to learn, but it's repetitive work and it takes awhile and some arm and back strength and sweat to develop a system that works for you in order to get it done quickly. Your daughter has had the experience of mucking regularly and now she has that tool and the dedication needed to do it over-and-over under her belt, I think she should move on to other skills that will also help her in her pursuit of riding and horsemanship.


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## bkylem (Sep 21, 2013)

Am I missing something here

Your daughter is 12 years old.
She is a volunteer.
She is a client

The BO may be a good instructor, attends church and loves kittens, but she is treating your child like crap. My concern would clearly be with her and not the little muck marbles that hide in the hay. The lady should be highly appreciative of your daughter's efforts. 

Make her feel good about herself ! She is a 12 year old child trying to help.

Get your priorities in line.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

So I talked to daughter this morning. About the list above by horselovinguy--she's not allowed to toss against the wall, no matter how gently, as this is called "breaking it all up" by the BO. In the stall only sifting allowed.

She tries to do the same as BO--in a circle, overlapping. Pretty similar to the list, I think. 

Daughter says BO stalls always look whiter than her own, but when she tries to copy, the BO tells her she wastes too much bedding. 

There's no doubt that the BO is very efficient and perfected her technique of sifting and what not, especially compared to a kid, no matter how conscientious and hard working. 

My guess is that the BO is upset with *herself* for *NEEDING* to "waste" bedding in order to achieve her own high standards, but instead she criticizes my daughter. 

If daughter wants to continue riding there, I probably shouldn't talk with the BO, but should just withdraw her from volunteering, claiming that she needs to focus on school work or chores at home, or something.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

horselessmom said:


> So I talked to daughter this morning. About the list above by horselovinguy--she's not allowed to toss against the wall, no matter how gently, as this is called "breaking it all up" by the BO. In the stall only sifting allowed.
> 
> If daughter wants to continue riding there, I probably shouldn't talk with the BO, but should just withdraw her from volunteering, claiming that she needs to focus on school work or chores at home, or something.


Maybe I wasn't clear in my description, my apology....the bedding never leaves the stall when you gently toss it to the stall wall...the idea is you toss slightly high and the manure falls and rolls out of it, then you scoop and sift, dump in the wheel barrow. The manure doesn't break apart if at all. 
When you toss the bedding the idea is to loosen it and fluff it up...
I have a feeling it the "experts" way of doing stalls always has her stalls white/whiter she is either banking some shavings and pulling them in to "lighten" the color or is adding small amounts of shavings more often than she alludes to...:think:...the stalls will darken over time with a horse walking around and no way around it some moisture is in them, but a "dry test"...reach down and grab a handful of shavings and see how they feel in your hand...your hand is more sensitive to moisture felt than you realize.
Are they wet or dry? Can they clump in your hand or fall apart?
My other thought was who cleans her stalls on the days your daughter doesn't... your daughter could be inheriting a ****-poor job by another done and taking the blame for it in innocence!
BO/trainer is just a ungrateful person who bit off her nose to spite herself she is about to discover.

As for withdrawing her from volunteering... that is something only mom knows what is happening and how your daughter is reacting to so much negativity and put downs.
_*You need not make any excuses though*_... just simply tell the BO/trainer your daughter will no longer be cleaning stalls for her as of this date... then stick to it. 
Do give her a few days notice though as is fair, she has come to rely on your daughter for work done even though her compassion and words of encouragement and praise stink!!

There are many places that would enjoy having a dedicated young lady come and help them out... think about rescues... there is always something that needs doing and a animal that needs a little extra love and time spent with them....with you also there it would be more than allowable I bet!!

Best of luck with this and please don't let your daughter be dumped on like this...it truly isn't fair to her!
:wink:


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## Sirius (Aug 12, 2013)

It sounds like your daughter is a very lovely, hard working, conscientious person. I thought HorseLovinguy gave some excellent advice and so did the others in this thread. Also, it's good that your daughter is confiding in you but be careful. Girls who love horses can be easily exploited in the barn especially the hard working ones. (I know not many people would agree with me) I would stop the "freebies" too but I would also be present during the time your daughter is having a lesson. Be tuned in to any "putdowns" or little inappropriate "slivers of criticism." If you get that twinge that it doesn't feel right, well trust your Mother Lion instinct. Make sure too she is advancing in her lessons. Just be aware, that's all. Always protect their possibilities. There are always other places with other wonderful horses and it costs nothing to visit or check them out.


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

Just read this whole thread on the edge of my seat! For the sake of your sweet daughter who's doing her best! I'd do this, *A.S.A.P*

*1.* Inform BO that as of the end of the week end, she will not be available to muck stalls any longer. (**** Be strong and steel yourself against any huff* *from her, btw!!* Your daughter _deserves_ to not volunteer from this 'lady')

*2.* "We will, of course be continuing her lessons." (You don't owe her any further explanation, and if she is huffy toward you in _any way_, simply take your hard-earned money and nice daughter to a better barn!) 

Best of luck!


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## BossHoss (Nov 11, 2011)

Ugh. I have worked on and off for a barn owner like that for roughly 3 years. It was never right. It was never going to be right. It wasn't right because it was me doing the work, and not her or one of her favorite stablehands. :/ I feel for her. I hope you get good advice and find a way to make the BO happy, but don't be completely destroyed if there is no middle ground.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

horselovinguy said:


> Maybe I wasn't clear in my description, my apology....the bedding never leaves the stall when you gently toss it to the stall wall...the idea is you toss slightly high and the manure falls and rolls out of it, then you scoop and sift, dump in the wheel barrow. The manure doesn't break apart if at all.
> When you toss the bedding the idea is to loosen it and fluff it up...
> I have a feeling it the "experts" way of doing stalls always has her stalls white/whiter she is either banking some shavings and pulling them in to "lighten" the color or is adding small amounts of shavings more often than she alludes to...:think:...the stalls will darken over time with a horse walking around and no way around it some moisture is in them, but a "dry test"...reach down and grab a handful of shavings and see how they feel in your hand...your hand is more sensitive to moisture felt than you realize.
> Are they wet or dry? Can they clump in your hand or fall apart?
> ...


Thank you! 

I do understand what you are saying about the manure not breaking up, but still daughter said this was not allowed. I'll doublecheck with her again. 

Knowing the BO, I know she's not singling out my daughter, so whoever does the stalls before her is held to the same standards. BO does fix the stalls if they are not to her satisfaction. I'm not sure how the stalls compare after a horse been in them, but they are whiter just after they are done.

Daughter is not even after praise, she just wants to know if she's being useful there. This is what bugs her. She feels that if BO has to fix her stalls, she is not being useful. From my perspective, if she wasn't mucking out, the BO would need to spend her 10 min per stall, but now she spends about 1 min to check it and fix if necessary. So she's still being useful and saves the BO some time. 

The BO is also very positive when she teaches--she points out the problem areas (which daughter loves) but also is very exuberant in her praise and encouragement when daughter does something right. So it is either the BO changes "modes" while teaching, or daughter indeed does a really crappy job at mucking. Sigh.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Sirius said:


> It sounds like your daughter is a very lovely, hard working, conscientious person. I thought HorseLovinguy gave some excellent advice and so did the others in this thread. Also, it's good that your daughter is confiding in you but be careful. Girls who love horses can be easily exploited in the barn especially the hard working ones. (I know not many people would agree with me) I would stop the "freebies" too but I would also be present during the time your daughter is having a lesson. Be tuned in to any "putdowns" or little inappropriate "slivers of criticism." If you get that twinge that it doesn't feel right, well trust your Mother Lion instinct. Make sure too she is advancing in her lessons. Just be aware, that's all. Always protect their possibilities. There are always other places with other wonderful horses and it costs nothing to visit or check them out.


The things is, her lessons are excellent. Never a putdown. Yes, she does get corrections (which she loves) but it is always in the context of "one step at a time, I'm here to guide you through this, don't worry if you get it wrong" etc. Lots of encouragement and exuberant praise when she does something right. *Quite* different from what she describes while she's there volunteering.


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

To add: We watched this video together: 




Daughter says that her manure does break up easily, and on the video it seems to break up less.

She says she is not allowed to pile up the bedding, BO prefers it is always flat / distributed evenly around the stall as she cleans.

She says she used to make little piles of bedding for the manure to roll out (not against the wall), and she thought it was working out really great, but the BO said not to pile things up, and didn't show her the against the wall method. So daughter assumed that tossing against the wall was another method of piling up, and to be avoided. 

She had also asked a long time horse owner at another barn for advice, and she was shown the method of sifting the clean stuff into a pile (which obviously worked for decades for that horse owner) but it is not allowed in her current barn. So I can see there are different ways and different preferences, obviously.

I'll get her to ask more specific questions this week when she's there.


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## Ace80908 (Apr 21, 2011)

Honestly, why bother? 

You and your daughter are putting WAY TOO MUCH time, worry, and effort into this situation. 

Be honest with the trainer- tell her that your daughter enjoys her lessons, but her volunteer efforts are not working out and it has become a source of anxiety for your family. 

If your daughter wants to continue to volunteer there, ask if she can clean tack instead.

Anyone can muck a stall, but getting it done in a manner JUST SO is the barn owner's deal, not yours or your daughters - absolutely no point in continuing this mental beat down.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I don't know, I'll be the voice of opposition here. I think it's great a 12 yr old wants to know the right way and is still excited and eager to go to the barn-to me, that doesn't say "broken spirit," that says responsibility and dedication beyond her years. So I applaud her dedication (and relate to being a horseless kid who would happily shovel poop to be at the barn, even if not in exchange for lessons.)

Now-sounds like BO has a system but is annoyed at giving continued instruction. You've mentioned other barn assistants being there, but not whether they could help instruct. I get that they might be on the clock and not have time to give a full on lesson. But could your daughter spend a day just watching their technique unobtrusively from the stall door? Could she tape the assistant or even BO doing a stall and study the technique on video? I know that sounds ridiculous to us, but to a really motivated 12 yr old who sounds like a visual learner, I bet it wouldn't sound too arduous, especially if it helped her start to feel like her contributions were more valuable.

Good luck OP-I think we'd be happy to have someone like your daughter at our barn! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

You know, I get it that the BO likes to have things done to a certain standard, and as a boarder I would totally appreciate that. However, when the help is 'free', beggars can't be choosers. She needs to cut your daughter some slack and just say thanks.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

This reminds me of a bad experience I had back when I used to board my horse. My best friend and I love horses and spending time at the barn. We each boarded a horse there.

The barn owner worked late every day because that was the shift he worked at his day not. No problem, me and my best friend loved horses so much that we fed the horses each and every evening after we rode. Not just our horses, but every horse on the place. We got no discount for such, we just wanted to volunteer and get the horses fed earlier than they would have been otherwise.

So we kept finding mold issues in one particular stack of hay. Our personal horses were fed from this stack of hay and it worried us. So I wrote a note to the barn owner expressing my concern and tore off a smallish chunk of the moldy hay (maybe a 1/4 of a flake) and left the note with the hay sample on his doorstep. The note was not nasty or rude. My best friend's mom even proofed it for me.

Well, hell broke loose the next day because apparently the barn owner came home late a night and tracked hay in his house. Boy was he ****ed. He didn't even want to talk to me, he went straight to my parents (I think I was 17 at the time.....still a minor but hardly a child). So it was a big deal apparently to the barn owner. There was nothing bad in my intent.....I just wanted to make sure the horses weren't being fed moldy hay!

So I probably stayed there another month until I found a new place to board and I moved. I didn't have to, but I didn't feel comfortable boarding there after that incident. I didn't even give notice. I found a place to board, packed my horse up and left without telling him. My best friend and her horse followed.

So yeah, no good deed goes unpunished. We were free farm labor for months (maybe longer, I don't remember how long I boarded there) and the barn owner didn't appreciate anything we did. :evil:


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

Update: I watched daughter muck out yesterday. It did take her 22 minutes to complete a stall, but she was very thorough and methodical and worked non-stop. At that point I thought that if the BO wouldn't be satisfied, I'd take my kid and be out of there. 

Then I asked the BO to comment on the stall and let us know on how to improve. She was put on the spot and was forced to admit that daughter is doing a good job, and that she's too busy to "praise" and has time only to nit pick--which is what I suspected, but daughter needed to hear it from her. Daughter doesn't really want a "good job" on everything, and as long as she knows her help is valued, she's very happy to work her heart out and doesn't take criticisms personally.

So when that got worked out, the BO offered daughter to do ground work / "natural horsemanship" several times a week with one of the retired horses there. This is my daughter's dream come true, and something we didn't expect to happen at all. 

All is well that ends well.


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## Glenknock (Feb 27, 2013)

Delighted to see she finally got some praise for a job well done


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