# when terminology matters



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I agree that sometimes terminology can be very important. Another example is when people call a jointed mouthpiece bit such as a Tom Thumb a "snaffle." This can create quite a bit of confusion, which is one reason why I clarify with people and insist that any bit with leverage is not called a snaffle. 

A recent situation: I was riding with a friend, who was wanting to try a bit on a horse that she had been riding in a sidepull. She told me she would use the bit she used on her own horse, since it was a gentle bit. Since I'd seen her bridle, I asked her if she meant to use her Tom Thumb. She said yes, saying it would seem good to start with a snaffle. 

I explained to her that her bit was not a snaffle, but was a curb bit. I told her the reason this was important was that we did not know if this horse had ever been ridden in a curb bit, although I had ridden the horse in an actual snaffle. The horse does not know how to neck rein, so I told her I thought there would be a dozen other actual snaffles that would probably be better to try the horse in than a curb. 

This concept was very confusing to her. Having heard that snaffles were generally the best bit to start a horse in, and believing that snaffle means "broken mouthpiece," she would have thought it OK to try to start a horse in a curb.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The use of the word hackamore.


----------



## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Especially when I hear that horses 'need' grain. Most horses don't need grain. Most horses DO need supplements in some shape or form. But actual, real grain? Nope, most of them don't need it.


----------



## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

Smilie said:


> If you ask an equine nutritionist, whether grain can make a horse hot, the answer will be 'yes'.


But then you will have people asking why, if the horse is hot, you don't just take the blanket off him.


----------



## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I still do not understand, for this very reason, why we do not use the term "concentrate" . This term removes much of the confusion. A concentrated source of energy vs. a non concentrated source(forage).


----------



## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I have a peeve with near and off being replaced with right and left. Is it the horse's right or left, or mine, am I on the horse or standing in front of him? Please let's go back to near and off.


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I tend to call it grain, it confuses some people, mostly on forums. I usually have to clarify myself but I say it without thinking.

Calling broken curbs a snaffle--that annoys me and I will correct it.

Half pass, vs side pass, vs full pass, vs leg yield. I've seen some pretty crazy definitions for those from different people. You'll raise my brow if you say you are teaching your young horse to half pass when you really mean side pass or leg yield.

But I don't know what any of this has to do with Political Correctness.


----------



## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

"Wormer" .... as if we are putting worms INTO our horses!!


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm sure that some of the terminologies, or differences in, are location based and a lot are 'age related'
I don't think I ever heard any feed called 'grain' in the UK, 'concentrates' is more commonly used at least among older horse people but if anyone did use the word grain I'd immediately think of the end product of some sort of cereal crop grown to produce edible seeds in the agricultural sense - agronomists regard the legumes to be 'grains crops' too because they're also seeds
It would help enormously if people stated exactly what they were feeding their horses when they bring feed into the equation and not just call it grain or some complete feed brand name
Turnout is another confusion - Is it grass turnout on 50 acres, 10 acres, 1 acre or a dry lot that's roughly the size of two stables. It helps to know these things when you're trying to give advice


----------



## Emoore (Sep 14, 2015)

```

```



whisperbaby22 said:


> I have a peeve with near and off being replaced with right and left. Is it the horse's right or left, or mine, am I on the horse or standing in front of him? Please let's go back to near and off.


No kidding. I work in automotive. I've had people ask me to look at their "right front tire." Go out and look and the passenger front tire is fine. But they meant the driver's side-- right side if you're looking at the car.


----------



## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Hey, jaydee, it took me awhile to figure out that in the UK you say "stable" when in the US it is usually "stall". Where I am from (both in place and time) a stable is the building inside of which are stalls.

So I have to ask-----I am old(er) and have never heard the term "hard feed". Please clue me in someone.


----------



## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Whinnie said:


> So I have to ask-----I am old(er) and have never heard the term "hard feed". Please clue me in someone.


Around me, hard feed is basically anything but hay and grass. Anything pelleted, extruded, oats, corn, ect.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I don't necessarily mind when people use different terminology. It's when they get their knickers in a serious knot if someone asks them to clarify or doesn't understand what they mean. :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

ApuetsoT said:


> Around me, hard feed is basically anything but hay and grass. Anything pelleted, extruded, oats, corn, ect.


Yup, hay and grass is I guess soft feed, never thought about that side, grains, concentrates or anything else is hard feed.


One of my pet peeves....he has problems with his left ankle....should be has problems with his near fetlock, or maybe off fore depending which left they mean


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

beau159 said:


> "Wormer" .... as if we are putting worms INTO our horses!!


Good luck fixing that one!


----------



## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

jaydee said:


> I'm sure that some of the terminologies, or differences in, are location based and a lot are 'age related'
> I don't think I ever heard any feed called 'grain' in the UK, 'concentrates' is more commonly used at least among older horse people but if anyone did use the word grain I'd immediately think of the end product of some sort of cereal crop grown to produce edible seeds in the agricultural sense - agronomists regard the legumes to be 'grains crops' too because they're also seeds
> It would help enormously if people stated exactly what they were feeding their horses when they bring feed into the equation and not just call it grain or some complete feed brand name
> Turnout is another confusion - Is it grass turnout on 50 acres, 10 acres, 1 acre or a dry lot that's roughly the size of two stables. It helps to know these things when you're trying to give advice


For that reason, I think it is incumbent on the person who needs clarification to ask for it. But then see Drafty Aires post above.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Filly Colt.........Seriously. Out here Foal is a verb, as in "She foaled last night and had the cutest little Filly Colt (pronounced more feely coat) you ever saw." 

A Shar-leer Steer. Does not matter if it's a cow, it's still a steer if it's a Shar-leer (Charolais). 

I grew up when grain or oats was pretty much all you fed in addition to alfalfa. We got corn, oats & barley (COB) and mixed it with dry molasses and some vitamins and voila, your 'grain'. Then came Omolene and what a convenience that was, but of course, it cost more than mixing up your own so we used it only for away shows. 

Tom Thumbs & Kimberwickes were all in a class of their own and no reputable horse trainer used either one. I agree that a TT is not a snaffle but it's more than my life, and my time, is worth to argue that point with some of the cowpokes out here. 

I think we have to give regional & age consideration to some terms and just straight out ask for clarification if we're not sure how things are being used.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I'm sure that some of the terminologies, or differences in, are location based and a lot are 'age related'
> I don't think I ever heard any feed called 'grain' in the UK, 'concentrates' is more commonly used at least among older horse people but if anyone did use the word grain I'd immediately think of the end product of some sort of cereal crop grown to produce edible seeds in the agricultural sense - agronomists regard the legumes to be 'grains crops' too because they're also seeds
> It would help enormously if people stated exactly what they were feeding their horses when they bring feed into the equation and not just call it grain or some complete feed brand name
> Turnout is another confusion - Is it grass turnout on 50 acres, 10 acres, 1 acre or a dry lot that's roughly the size of two stables. It helps to know these things when you're trying to give advice



Also like Jaydee's post, but how in the heck do I credit myself a 'like' ?


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Yes I agree with Drafty - Forums have members from all over the world and all different age groups so I see no reason why anyone should take offence if they're asked to explain a terminology that might be familiar to them but alien to someone else - likewise we shouldn't get irritated when someone uses terminology we're not familiar with.
All it takes is a polite query and a polite reply to sort things out

I'm someone who also prefers to use near side and off side - when someone says left and right to me I start wanting to wear gloves with L & R printed on the backs again!!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Avna said:


> Good luck fixing that one!




Ditto!
A pet Peeve, but not a term where the wrong context can be taken-thus annoying, but harmless
"grain', use to mean concentrate, or shanked snaffle assumed to be a true snaffle, or hackamore assumed to include mechanical hackamores, instead of being synonymous with bosal, do cause true confusion.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jaydee said:


> I'm someone who also prefers to use near side and off side - when someone says left and right to me I start wanting to wear gloves with L & R printed on the backs again!!


I have to think about my right and left, never been good at that. But off and near I never get confused.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Most people in the UK will only think of a hackamore as the mechanical type because even though there are increasing numbers of western riders there and the NH influence has affected some the majority of ' English' riders still don't have 'bosal' in their everyday horsey vocabulary


----------



## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Maybe it's because I've spent the last 40 years working all over the world, but this is almost a non issue with me. I'm just accustomed to making sure we're all talking about the same thing. Fortunately, I'm not in this position, but if you're feeding someone else's horse, or they're feeding yours, it's VERY important to clarify. Especially if you already know that some folks use specific words in a generic fashion. 

Dreamcatchers story reminded me of the folks I grew up around. If a mare foaled, one of the first questions was "Is it a mare colt or a hoss colt?". These hillfolk would not give a rats patootie about yours or my expansive and highly refined horsey vocabulary. Most of them were raised using horses and mules for work and transportation. They knew what they were talking about, and didn't care whether you did or not.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The term "horse colt" is common here but not "filly colt". And "colt" may refer to any horse under the age of three or just green.

Hackamore , like I mentioned before, refers to a bosal, hanger, and mcCarty. A mechanical hackamore is always refered to a mechanical hackamore. It's actually pretty rare to see one here. A bosal refers to just the nose piece alone, never the whole rig. 

But I've noticed these terms and how they are used differ region to region.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> The term "horse colt" is common here but not "filly colt". And "colt" may refer to any horse under the age of three or just green.
> 
> Hackamore , like I mentioned before, refers to a bosal, hanger, and mcCarty.


What is a mcCarty? Are you referring to a mecate (reins)?


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> What is a mcCarty? Are you referring to a mecate (reins)?


Yes. That is how it's pronounced here. If you use the spanish pronunciation "mecate" everyone thinks youre a rawhide barbie that's been to too many clinics, and read too much western horeman magazine.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Do tell.... LOL!


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

gottatrot said:


> I agree that sometimes terminology can be very important. Another example is when people call a jointed mouthpiece bit such as a Tom Thumb a "snaffle." This can create quite a bit of confusion, which is one reason why I clarify with people and insist that any bit with leverage is not called a snaffle.
> 
> A recent situation: I was riding with a friend, who was wanting to try a bit on a horse that she had been riding in a sidepull. She told me she would use the bit she used on her own horse, since it was a gentle bit. Since I'd seen her bridle, I asked her if she meant to use her Tom Thumb. She said yes, saying it would seem good to start with a snaffle.
> 
> ...


Even with correct terminology you can run into problems. Before I came to HF I did not even realize the tom thumb came as a curb! When you say tom thumb, this is what I 'see'.


----------



## semper (Apr 29, 2016)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> Even with correct terminology you can run into problems. Before I came to HF I did not even realize the tom thumb came as a curb! When you say tom thumb, this is what I 'see'.
> 
> View attachment 793481
> View attachment 793489




YES!!!


(your bottom bit is actually a loose ring, short spoon cheeked snaffle to give it its proper name, but gets confused whith our tom thumb bexause the cheeks are a similar short length.)


Correctly catagorised, a kimblewich falls within the pelham family, not in a class of its own. I wonder if this "tom thumb" you are referring to is also a form of pelham bit?


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Yes. That is how it's pronounced here. If you use the spanish pronunciation "mecate" everyone thinks youre a rawhide barbie that's been to too many clinics, and read too much western horeman magazine.


I'm totally stealing 'rawhide barbie'.


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

There appears to be a whole range of tom thumbs, and while some might be classed as pelhams, some are definitely curbs. And some are snaffles! I'm sure the makers just do it to confuse us!! lol


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

double post


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> Even with correct terminology you can run into problems. Before I came to HF I did not even realize the tom thumb came as a curb! When you say tom thumb, this is what I 'see'.
> View attachment 793481
> View attachment 793489


That's interesting, I've never heard either of those bits referred to as a Tom Thumb. Your top bit pictured is what we would call a full cheek snaffle.
I know in Europe they call a type of Pelham a Tom Thumb like this:








In the US this is commonly called a Tom Thumb:








Both of the ones I posted are curb bits, although Pelhams can also be used as just a snaffle depending where you put the reins on.


----------



## semper (Apr 29, 2016)

gottatrot said:


> That's interesting, I've never heard either of those bits referred to as a Tom Thumb. Your top bit pictured is what we would call a full cheek snaffle.
> I know in Europe they call a type of Pelham a Tom Thumb like this:
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for this. I would not class your top bit as a curb ever as it has two rings for two reins.
Your bottom one is technically a pelham too if it was designed to have two reins used in conjunction.....? It seems a large "training" step to use a single rein where the cheek ring is and then drop it to the bottom ring at a later date. No inbetween stages?


Australia and NZ have always referred to the snaffle as a tom thumb. The top bit you mentioned of the snaffles is quite different to a full cheek (egg butt) snaffle as it has very short cheeks to it which are flattened like a spoon cheek but thicker.




It beggars the question; "What's in a name.......?" (to quote a famous playwright)


----------



## semper (Apr 29, 2016)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> There appears to be a whole range of tom thumbs, and while some might be classed as pelhams, some are definitely curbs. And some are snaffles! I'm sure the makers just do it to confuse us!! lol




I'm sure half the makers do not know themselves now days, but when you look at the old trade catalogues, there has always been a variety around of stange design. Some well made by trained Loriners, some not.


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

semper said:


> Thank you for this. I would not class your top bit as a curb ever as it has two rings for two reins.
> Your bottom one is technically a pelham too if it was designed to have two reins used in conjunction.....? It seems a large "training" step to use a single rein where the cheek ring is and then drop it to the bottom ring at a later date. No inbetween stages?


Pelhams are technically curb bits because they use leverage. You may not always use the curb element when you are using the snaffle rein, but unless you are only using them with a snaffle rein they are a leverage/curb bit. 
The bottom one can't be used as a snaffle since any rein would attach above the mouthpiece which would not engage the bit. The extra part of the ring above the bit is for attaching a curb strap/chain.


----------



## semper (Apr 29, 2016)

gottatrot said:


> Pelhams are technically curb bits because they use leverage. You may not always use the curb element when you are using the snaffle rein, but unless you are only using them with a snaffle rein they are a leverage/curb bit.
> The bottom one can't be used as a snaffle since any rein would attach above the mouthpiece which would not engage the bit. The extra part of the ring above the bit is for attaching a curb strap/chain.




Ah, I did wonder about that top slot, but am completely unfamiliar with western bits and their useage.


In UK Pelhams are (or were) not _technically_ curbs and one would fail an exam for answering so. As far as physics goes it may be logical to classify them this way, but the way I was taught had nothing to do with the physics and all to do with the use of the curb chain, hense a kimblewick was classified as a pelham.


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

semper said:


> In UK Pelhams are (or were) not _technically_ curbs and one would fail an exam for answering so. As far as physics goes it may be logical to classify them this way, but the way I was taught had nothing to do with the physics and all to do with the use of the curb chain, hense a kimblewick was classified as a pelham.


I'm curious what is meant by this...they would call it a Pelham if it had a chain? Don't all curbs use chains (or straps)? 

I can see calling a Kimblewick a Pelham due to both can be used with two reins so you can use them as both a snaffle and a curb...?


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Avna said:


> I'm totally stealing 'rawhide barbie'.



Rather be a rawhide barbie, then a buckle bunny, LOL!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> Even with correct terminology you can run into problems. Before I came to HF I did not even realize the tom thumb came as a curb! When you say tom thumb, this is what I 'see'.
> 
> View attachment 793481
> View attachment 793489



Those are full cheek snaffles. There is no leverage


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Ahh, now we are on my favorite pet peeve- wrong classification of snaffles and curbs, even by tack catalogs, as anyone that shows esp, knows when a bit is truly a curb and when it is a snaffle, regardless of the shape of the mouth piece, thus it is used purely for convenience, being easier to say then curb with a broken mouth piece!
A great oxymoron is that infamous `shanked snaffle`, as you are basically calling it anon leverage , leverage bit!
A snaffle has no leverage, thus the reins are attached in direct line of where that bit exits the mouth. Western bridles will often have a curb strap used with that snaffle, but it is purely non functional, far as the action of that bit, and serves a similar purpose as a cavasson on an English bridle
Since most riding snaffles are jointed, the incorrect association is made by many, that if the mouth piece is jointed, it is a type of snaffle_ Ie shanked snaffle


----------



## semper (Apr 29, 2016)

gottatrot said:


> I'm curious what is meant by this...they would call it a Pelham if it had a chain? Don't all curbs use chains (or straps)?
> 
> I can see calling a Kimblewick a Pelham due to both can be used with two reins so you can use them as both a snaffle and a curb...?



Two reins and a chain, the kimblewick became a pelham because although it was one rein, it had a curb chain.


----------



## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Those are full cheek snaffles. There is no leverage


Yes, that was my point. When I first came to hf I would see people saying how severe the tom thumb was, but now I know they were talking about the curb.



> Since most riding snaffles are jointed, the incorrect association is made by many, that if the mouth piece is jointed, it is a type of snaffle_ Ie shanked snaffle


So by definition, would the same people call a straight or half moon snaffle a curb? :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> So by definition, would the same people call a straight or half moon snaffle a curb? :icon_rolleyes:


More great examples!?
That all depends:
"Half Moon Snaffle"








Snaffle, not curb.

Versus "Half Moon Snaffle"








Curb.

"Straight Snaffle" aka mullen snaffle:








Snaffle, not curb.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Rather be a rawhide barbie, then a buckle bunny, LOL!


Yeah I guess if I had to choose. Of course, one may be both. Multitasking.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Speaking from a British perspective I've never heard of a Pelham described as anything but a curb bit and I've never heard of a kimberwick described as a type of Pelham - just as another type of curb bit
But that does take me to one of my peeves because the Kimberwicke/kimberwick or to call it by its original name Kimblewick (as it was named after the British town Kimblewick where it was first made) is not the same as the slotted Uxeter Kimberwick and cannot be used with two reins
If the pictures are working today:


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> So by definition, would the same people call a straight or half moon snaffle a curb? :icon_rolleyes:


No, because we're not talking mouthpieces, we're talking shanks or lack thereof. A curb can have any type of mouthpiece (straight/mulled, ported, broken), but if it has cheek pieces which cause leverage on the horse's mouth, it is a curb. Likewise, a snaffle can have any type of mouthpiece, but if the reins connect to a ring directly attached to the mouthpiece in some fashion (excluding kimberwicks, as has already been discussed...the slots on the cheek pieces of a kimberwick makes it a curb, as the reins don't slide to reduce/eliminate leverage, they are fixed, to engage the curb chain) and the reins can slide on that ring, then it is a snaffle.


----------



## KLJcowgirl (Oct 13, 2015)

beau159 said:


> "Wormer" .... as if we are putting worms INTO our horses!!


Thank you!!! I understand it's just what people call it and that's fine... it just grinds on me. I was always taught to call it DEwormer or DEworming, because we're getting rid of worms... But that's just me, and I will use it. I won't get mad at others for using wormer. :wink:


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

whisperbaby22 said:


> I have a peeve with near and off being replaced with right and left. Is it the horse's right or left, or mine, am I on the horse or standing in front of him? Please let's go back to near and off.


Huh, I never thought of this one. Might be that I am too new in horses so I never learned those specific old timer's terms. I assume 'near' and 'off' refer to the same sides as when we saddle them? 
I use 'right' and 'left' but it is *always* in relation to the horse's own parts- i.e. as if I could get kicked in the chest by the horse standing behind them facing the same direction.

I have never had issues with clarifying it, but that is likely because I almost always specify 'his/her left/right.' That extra word helps, I am sure. 

And for 2 of our horses, I can also say 'the white foot,' as they each have a sock on a back leg. Only usable 25% of the time but oh, well lol.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

I tried to edit, but guess I was too late: 

ETA: I should add: I was just thinking, I am fairly sure I only use right and left when discussing a loose horse, or if the horse is not in front of me. (i.e. a conversation with the vet discussing my mare's fractured right hind/back cannon bone is exactly as I just typed it. What would you say, the 'off hind cannon'?) If the horse is in front of me, tied while getting saddled, I know I have used 'off-side' and.... hmm, not sure 'on.'?


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

whisperbaby22 said:


> I have a peeve with near and off being replaced with right and left. Is it the horse's right or left, or mine, am I on the horse or standing in front of him? Please let's go back to near and off.


This has never been confusing for me because I was always taught right and left on an animal is as if you are standing behind it. 
You don't say "the brand goes on the near rib". You do say "the brand goes on the left rib". It is also described that way in brand books whether it be cattle, horses, etc.
So just like if you are facing forward your left, near hand same with livestock.

HOWEVER I'm one of those that need left and right written my gloves. I seen gloves, Border Collie people will get this, "away to me" and "come by"..lol


----------



## mkmurphy81 (May 8, 2015)

I need labeled gloves, too. I remember a physics class in college when we learned the right hand rule. I walked into that test with the word "LEFT" written across my left hand.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

mkmurphy81 said:


> I need labeled gloves, too. I remember a physics class in college when we learned the right hand rule. I walked into that test with the word "LEFT" written across my left hand.


Well... I googled 'right hand rule'.... that waaaay tops the 'hold your hands up with the thumbs 90 degrees and the 'L' is your left hand, (or loser, lol, depends on how old you are!).


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

GracielaGata said:


> Well... I googled 'right hand rule'.... that waaaay tops the 'hold your hands up with the thumbs 90 degrees and the 'L' is your left hand, (or loser, lol, depends on how old you are!).


Lol! I do that!


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Lol! I do that!


Yeah, I figure most of us Americans (at least, maybe Brits and Aussies do it too?) do it. 

Did you google the right hand rule?! I am pretty darn smart, but my brain had no interest in computing it right now!  Gimme my L is for loser method my day!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> No, because we're not talking mouthpieces, we're talking shanks or lack thereof. A curb can have any type of mouthpiece (straight/mulled, ported, broken), but if it has cheek pieces which cause leverage on the horse's mouth, it is a curb. Likewise, a snaffle can have any type of mouthpiece, but if the reins connect to a ring directly attached to the mouthpiece in some fashion (excluding kimberwicks, as has already been discussed...the slots on the cheek pieces of a kimberwick makes it a curb, as the reins don't slide to reduce/eliminate leverage, they are fixed, to engage the curb chain) and the reins can slide on that ring, then it is a snaffle.


Well put. Forget the mouth piece. Concentrate as to where the reins attach. If that attachment is below where that bit exits the mouth, then it has leverage, and thus is a curb. Simple principles of physics!

If the reins attach, where that bit exits the mouth, then it is a snaffle, having no leverage, regardless if that mouth piece is solid, is jointed, or even has a port
Therefore, there is no need to post endless examples of mouth piece shapes, and instead simply absorb that a snaffle is a non ;leverage bit. Ie, one lb of pressure applied, equals one lb of pressure effect, as there is no lever. Basic physics!
Once you add shanks, you multiply that pressure applied, by both those shanks, and total purchase to shank ratio.
Again, forget the shape of that mouth piece, and just look as to whether there is a lever effect-basic physics!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Lol! I do that!


While most people learn to ride with one rein, using their left hand, there is no rule that says you can't ride with your right hand, as I do, simply from habit. It does mean, many times, when working a gate, for a normal walk through,(right hand push ) I have to change hands, but as long as I change my reins back to my right hand, same as I rode up to that gate with, after having worked that gate, no penalty


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

semper said:


> Two reins and a chain, the kimblewick became a pelham because although it was one rein, it had a curb chain.


 Only if you attach those reins on a kimberwick, in the slot below the level of the mouth piece


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Smilie said:


> While most people learn to ride with one rein, using their left hand, there is no rule that says you can't ride with your right hand, as I do, simply from habit. It does mean, many times, when working a gate, for a normal walk through,(right hand push ) I have to change hands, but as long as I change my reins back to my right hand, same as I rode up to that gate with, after having worked that gate, no penalty


I don't think we meant all this stuff too... or at least I didn't.  
But I never thought about which hand I single rein with, as I frequently switch up my hands when I get bored holding with the hand in use, or need to move a branch or something as we go down the trail. Though admittedly I don't do a heck of a lot of neck reining. It is more sort of a modified very mild direct with lots of seat and the occasional attempt at neck reining. lol


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

semper said:


> Two reins and a chain, the kimblewick became a pelham because although it was one rein, it had a curb chain.


 I guess you could use a kimberwick with two reins, thus having both snaffle and curb action, and thus a pelham, but I have never seen one used that way. Only way I have seen it used, was to use the lower slot, with one rein, thus curb action. Many youth and non pro use Kimberwicks in HUS, in that manner, for more 'control', but you see open horses , ridden by pros, using a D ring snaffle, regardless of age of horse
a kimberwick, stock g=horse, spells, amateur /youth !


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

COWCHICK77 said:


> This has never been confusing for me because I was always taught right and left on an animal is as if you are standing behind it.
> You don't say "the brand goes on the near rib". You do say "the brand goes on the left rib". It is also described that way in brand books whether it be cattle, horses, etc.
> So just like if you are facing forward your left, near hand same with livestock.
> 
> HOWEVER I'm one of those that need left and right written my gloves. I seen gloves, Border Collie people will get this, "away to me" and "come by"..lol


 Yes, I refer to a horse's near side and off side, taking into consideration as to which side one 'normally leads them from, and mounts on
It only makes sense, that if referring to a horse's left and right side, you are standing facing in the same direction as the horse. That is a simple no Brainer to me!
If you take registration pictures of a horse, if the head is pointing forward, to the left, that is the left side of the horse, regardless if you are standing facing the horse, thus with your right side to his left!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

GracielaGata said:


> I don't think we meant all this stuff too... or at least I didn't.
> But I never thought about which hand I single rein with, as I frequently switch up my hands when I get bored holding with the hand in use, or need to move a branch or something as we go down the trail. Though admittedly I don't do a heck of a lot of neck reining. It is more sort of a modified very mild direct with lots of seat and the occasional attempt at neck reining. lol


Well yes, just riding out, who cares, as to which hand you use!
Shows do have rules, and western riding, one handed, is steeped in tradition, where one rode with the left hand, leaving the right hand to throw a rope, ect
Thus, while it is not 'incorrect' to ride with your right hand, it is not considered 'classical or ideal'
. Who knows, you might be left handed!
All show rules stipulate, is that the reins must fall on the same side of the horse, as the hand you are riding with, and, if you work an obstacle, as in trail, where you must change hands to do so, with most being set up fro riding with your left hand, you have to make sure to change your reins back to your right hand, before leaving that obstacle


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Smilie said:


> Well yes, just riding out, who cares, as to which hand you use!
> Shows do have rules, and western riding, one handed, is steeped in tradition, where one rode with the left hand, leaving the right hand to throw a rope, ect
> Thus, while it is not 'incorrect' to ride with your right hand, it is not considered 'classical or ideal'
> . Who knows, you might be left handed!
> All show rules stipulate, is that the reins must fall on the same side of the horse, as the hand you are riding with, and, if you work an obstacle, as in trail, where you must change hands to do so, with most being set up fro riding with your left hand, you have to make sure to change your reins back to your right hand, before leaving that obstacle


Yeah, I figured you meant in showing as well.  And that does make sense to use the left so as to leave the majority dominant right hand open to throw a rope or whatnot. 
I've always found it interesting that even though we try to make it so that people can be comfortably left handed- writing, throwing a ball, hitting at bat, scissors and can openers exist for them as well... there are still things they have to learn the opposite- driving a stick shift, throwing a rope and neck reining in a show, lol. 
--- But to caveat... I assume in England all right handed people get the joy of learning to stick shift with their off hand as well. (Hehe, like how I snuck that horse term in there?! Though I suppose it is only the 'off hand' because it is non-dominant for the majority lol).


----------



## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Smilie said:


> While most people learn to ride with one rein, using their left hand, there is no rule that says you can't ride with your right hand, as I do, simply from habit. It does mean, many times, when working a gate, for a normal walk through,(right hand push ) I have to change hands, but as long as I change my reins back to my right hand, same as I rode up to that gate with, after having worked that gate, no penalty


Even this is going to be regional. In the eastern US, I'd wager that most people riding western style, one handed are using their dominant hand, whether left or right. Most will never, ever throw a rope or handle a weapon while mounted.

I've always used my left hand, because I wanted to throw ropes and handle weapons from horseback. when I was a kid, showing western pleasure in Virginia, judges would sometimes comment on my unusual left handed rein handling. 

When I was in the cavalry unit, in Fort Hood, Texas, there were quite a few new troopers who had to be taught to hold the reins in their left hands. The distinction seemed to be between pleasure riders and those who had actually worked stock from horseback.


----------



## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

RE: bits.

This thread has likely been more educational for me than all of my random internet searching. It's obvious that here is a hug variation in terminology with the same words being used for different bits, and vice versa in different parts of the world. 

What I think would be more beneficial when talking bits face to face, would be to talk function rather than terminology. WHY do you use this bit rather than the other? 

And from my own experience, sometimes the correct answer is "I don't have a clue. The horse just works better in this one than the other".


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> Even this is going to be regional. In the eastern US, I'd wager that most people riding western style, one handed are using their dominant hand, whether left or right. Most will never, ever throw a rope or handle a weapon while mounted.
> 
> I've always used my left hand, because I wanted to throw ropes and handle weapons from horseback. when I was a kid, showing western pleasure in Virginia, judges would sometimes comment on my unusual left handed rein handling.
> 
> *When I was in the cavalry unit, in Fort Hood, Texas, there were quite a few new troopers who had to be taught to hold the reins in their left hands. The distinction seemed to be between pleasure riders and those who had actually worked stock from horseback.*


Is it safe to assume that those who did left reining were stock workers, or are stock workers of a type that you slung that rope whatever way was most comfortable for you? 
i don't know the real answers to any of this because I did not grow up around horses, we have only had ours for 4.5ish years. That is all my exposure, time wise. lol. I did take 'enough' lessons to teach me the basics, with the caveat that if I hit a wall with my mare, I shall find another trainer again. But for the every day we go out on trails and in the trees, we do fine and learn quite well together as we go.


----------



## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

GracielaGata said:


> *Is it safe to assume that those who did left reining were stock workers, or are stock workers of a type that you slung that rope whatever way was most comfortable for you?*
> i don't know the real answers to any of this because I did not grow up around horses, we have only had ours for 4.5ish years. That is all my exposure, time wise. lol. I did take 'enough' lessons to teach me the basics, with the caveat that if I hit a wall with my mare, I shall find another trainer again. But for the every day we go out on trails and in the trees, we do fine and learn quite well together as we go.


Yes. In the cavalry unit at least. The troopers who were already accustomed to holding the reins in the left hand were overwhelmingly from the western states, and had worked cattle from horseback at some point in their lives. 

The others were from all over the US and had mostly gained their horse experience from pleasure riding. And by that I mean riding for fun, with no need to keep the dominant (usually the right) hand free for work. When *Smilie* refers to western pleasure, she is mostly speaking of the formal, judged shows of various horse associations. Though she also has plenty of experience in using horses for various types of work.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> Yes. In the cavalry unit at least. The troopers who were already accustomed to holding the reins in the left hand were overwhelmingly from the western states, and had worked cattle from horseback at some point in their lives.
> 
> The others were from all over the US and had mostly gained their horse experience from pleasure riding. And by that I mean riding for fun, with no need to keep the dominant (usually the right) hand free for work. When *Smilie* refers to western pleasure, she is mostly speaking of the formal, judged shows of various horse associations. Though she also has plenty of experience in using horses for various types of work.


Exactly.  So a lefty writing and ball throwing person, growing up on a cow working farm, would still 'have to' learn to ride reins in the left so they could throw rope with the right? Why would that matter in the end when working a cow? 
(And I figured that was exactly what you meant in regards to Smilie, as with the conversation with her, I was figuring it out.  ) 
I am the 'pleasure rider'/trail type. Or as I used to always call myself when asked what style of riding I do- whatever gets us from point A to point B all in one piece. lol


----------



## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

GracielaGata said:


> Exactly.  *So a lefty writing and ball throwing person, growing up on a cow working farm, would still 'have to' learn to ride reins in the left so they could throw rope with the right? Why would that matter in the end when working a cow? *
> (And I figured that was exactly what you meant in regards to Smilie, as with the conversation with her, I was figuring it out.  )
> I am the 'pleasure rider'/trail type. Or as I used to always call myself when asked what style of riding I do- whatever gets us from point A to point B all in one piece. lol


When working cattle, you use your dominant hand for the work. A left handed person would throw the rope with the left hand and hold the reins in the right. Competition roping is a timed event. Doesn't matter which hand you use as long as you're faster than the others. Actual work is pragmatic. Which hand you use isn't important. Getting the work done is. You may have to coordinate left vs. right handed ropers when working as a team though.

Showing has rules, which I haven't bothered with since the mid 1970's. Smilie is a better source for those. The military is hidebound in tradition and uniformity. In the Cavalry, we all had to handle our reins with the left hand and our weapons with the right. Did not matter what your dominant hand was. 

My observation comes from the fact that most people are right hand dominant.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> *When working cattle, you use your dominant hand for the work. A left handed person would throw the rope with the left hand and hold the reins in the right. Competition roping is a timed event. Doesn't matter. Which hand you use as long as you're faster than the others. Actual work is pragmatic. Which hand you use isn't important. Getting the work done is. *
> 
> Showing has rules, which I haven't bothered with since the mid 1970's. The military is hidebound in tradition and uniformity. In the Cavalry, we all had to handle our reins with the left hand and our weapons with the right. Did not matter what your dominant hand was.
> 
> My observation comes from the fact that most people are right hand dominant.


All that bold is what I assumed you would say, since while there are 'sorta specific ways' to do everything, in the real world, one has to realize sometimes you can't mold them to your way when they aren't built to do it your way lol. 
And as for the military... tell me about it. My husband is a retired Marine. 
So a left handed shooter had to learn to shoot right handed for the sake of looks? I sure as heck hope they weren't doing that in combat as well! :O lol

I am right handed, but VERY left eye dominant. I can't even open my right eye to look through a microscope or binocs. I have to do it all left eye only. I am still trying to figure out how to sight long guns like that! I think we've decided to start teaching me to shoot left handed, since I can't seem to override my eyeball. (It's been a while since I truly aimed one, as the coyotes are never truly close enough to do more than scare. lol)


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I use my left hand for the reins. The right is for taking pictures. Unless, of course, my wife is taking the pictures:










Happily, my horse doesn't care. In practice, I use both hands on the reins 25-30% of the time, too. But Bandit & I will never show.

Terminology counts more when using the Internet. It is hard to communicate if one uses a well-known term in an unusual or incorrect manner.​


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

True, terminology matters more when asking for advise, or trying to comply to show rules.
There is no rule that says you must ride with your left hand, however, there are rules as to how many fingers you can have between the reins, or the space required between both hands, if using Rommel reins
You also have to know what is a true snaffle
When i just trail ride, I have been known to use either hand, or both, or none. If I take pictures, I use both hands, with reins just drapped in a bridge, over my horse's neck


----------



## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

GracielaGata said:


> All that bold is what I assumed you would say, since while there are 'sorta specific ways' to do everything, in the real world, one has to realize sometimes you can't mold them to your way when they aren't built to do it your way lol.
> And as for the military... tell me about it. My husband is a retired Marine.
> *So a left handed shooter had to learn to shoot right handed for the sake of looks? I sure as heck hope they weren't doing that in combat as well! :O lol*
> 
> I am right handed, but VERY left eye dominant. I can't even open my right eye to look through a microscope or binocs. I have to do it all left eye only. I am still trying to figure out how to sight long guns like that! I think we've decided to start teaching me to shoot left handed, since I can't seem to override my eyeball. (It's been a while since I truly aimed one, as the coyotes are never truly close enough to do more than scare. lol)


It wasn't about looks. It was about practicality. You're doing everything in ranks in close quarters. A lefty here and there will gum up the works in short order. It also wasn't about marksmanship, so much as sending as much lead as possible toward the enemy at the same time. Also, historically, most long guns had the firing mechanism on the right side. (The OFF side to bring this back to being horse related.) Holding it left handed would put that mechanism right in front of your face. 

I don't know how others do it, but when I'm shooting from horseback, I don't aim. I concentrate on the target, bring the weapon up and fire.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> It wasn't about looks. It was about practicality. You're doing everything in ranks in close quarters. A lefty here and there will gum up the works in short order. It also wasn't about marksmanship, so much as sending as much lead as possible toward the enemy at the same time. Also, historically, most long guns had the firing mechanism on the right side. (The OFF side to bring this back to being horse related.) Holding it left handed would put that mechanism right in front of your face.
> 
> I don't know how others do it, but when I'm shooting from horseback, I don't aim. I concentrate on the target, bring the weapon up and fire.


True on all those thoughts.  

And I haven't shot from horseback yet, so haven't a clue how I would do.


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

I'm very left hand dominate, but my mouse is still keyed with right buttons. 

When I ride, I switch hands often, mostly because of my peripheral neuropathy - if I don't switch, the hand holding the reins goes numb. Not Good.  I also ride quite often with two hands, but that's because my horse is in a side-pull (bosal) and occasionally ignores seat, legs, and neck when she thinks we should go that way instead of MY way! LOL. 

With guns and rifles, I shoot left handed, which sometimes sucks as most semi-automatics eject to the right - or in front of me. If shooting from horseback, I try to shoot across my body, since I have to be careful that the brass doesn't hit my horse. 

That there is one reason most lefties prefer revolvers!


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

If I were to shoot from my horse, I would be doing a whole lot of praying that she didn't kill me..............


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Hehe, me too, Celeste!!


----------



## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

In days of old when knights were bold, if you went to the off side of a horse coming at you, you were looking for trouble because most knights were right handed. If you rode to the near side you were just passing by. Or maybe I just read that somewhere in a book.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Celeste said:


> If I were to shoot from my horse, I would be doing a whole lot of praying that she didn't kill me..............



Well, they say you can shoot off of any horse.....ONCE, LOL!

No, neither hubby or I have done mounted shooting, but hubby does hunt, on horseback, and I ride along
He gets off to shoot an elk, etc.
For one thing, it is not legal to pack a hand gun in Canada, which is kinda impractical, should you run into a grizzly, and your horse and you part company. Haven't taught any of our horse's to shoot, so that rifle on the horse would be useless!
Have held the horses , right beside hubby, while he got off and fired over the heads of some obnoxious wild studs, eyeing up the mare I was riding
Topic seems to be heading off track, as these threads often do!
Not an example of when terminology matters, but one with just a bit of humor, since we are already derailed!
One time, when I had a nice young horse,advertised as well started , for sale , I got a phone call from someone with an English accent.

The woman asked me if the horse had been backed. 'Well, yes, I replied, we teach them also to back up, as well as ride forward at all gaits"

Another time, I sold two nice trail horses to someone and their husband, also from an English background. I always gave new halters , to go with any horses that we sold. I was told, 'no worries, as she had head collars. For a moment, I pictured some large dog type collars!


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Smilie said:


> Well, they say you can shoot off of any horse.....ONCE, LOL!
> 
> No, neither hubby or I have done mounted shooting, but hubby does hunt, on horseback, and I ride along
> He gets off to shoot an elk, etc.
> ...


So THIS is what I've been doing wrong! My mare needs to be the one doing the shooting!! lol


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There are no slots on a kimberwick bit!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

They don't? 

FES Ported Barrel Kimberwick in Kimberwick at Schneider Saddlery

https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/k...g&utm_campaign=nb_shopping_tes&utm_term=14413

I was taught that the holes in the cheek pieces where you can affix the reins are called "slots." :shrug:


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

jaydee said:


> There are no slots on a kimberwick bit!!!!!!!!!!!


Google Image disagrees. More do than don't. What do you call a bit with slots and a curb chain but no shank, yourself?


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If it isn't a slot, what is it?










For shooting off a horse, I figure I can get away with it, provided my horse is pointed north. The south border is only 60 miles away, and I don't ride with a passport...:smiley_flag:


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Provided I understand what someone is saying, terminology doesn't really matter to me. There will be discrepancies in all types of language (conversational speech, formal speech, etcetc). If I'm confused by what someone is saying, I'll ask. No big deal /shrug.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

bsms said:


> If it isn't a slot, what is it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha!! 
I figure I too could get away with it one time, but I will be walking back home! We have trained 2 of ours a bit to guns, but hadn't gotten as far as mounted shooting at all, so still next to nothing.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That is called an *Uxeter* Kimberwick
A true kimberwick (that was originally called and is still commonly called in the UK a Kimblewick after the town in England where it was first made) doesn't have slots
It actually makes a big difference when talking about using a Kimberwick because the Uxeter Kimberwick is able to produce more leverage action which increases the severity of the bit
Do not always believe everything Google Images tells you
It's a shame that modern terminologies are losing original one's especially when the 'difference' makes a big difference - its rather like the Tom Thumb being called a snaffle really


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

That then raises the question: Who determines what is a TRUE XYZ?

This, according to Wiki, is an old Kimberwick:










Good luck finding one to buy in the western USA! And having a slot doesn't change the effect. If you attached the reins to the lower portion of the above bit, it would still have leverage. If you attached it in the upper part, it would not - and neither would this slotted one:










Words change meaning over time. In the time of King James, "kill" meant "murder", thus the KJV has "Thou shalt not kill" and the ESV has "“You shall not murder." Both have the same meaning, but one was from the 1600s and one is for today.

So...does a Kimberwick have slots? If you order one in a store near me, it will. If that is the commonly used meaning, then who gets to say it is wrong, just because it is different than the original?


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Some people call my saddle a "Wade" saddle:










It is not. It is a slick seat, slick fork saddle with rounded skirts and a thicker than average horn suitable for roping. But it is NOT a "Wade": Wades

But it is kind of like a Wade, superficially.

I also have ridden Australian saddles:










OK, no real Australian saddle has a saddle horn, and no real Australian saddle sells new for much under $3000. But if I want to tell someone what type of saddle I used to use, what should I say. "An Australian-style made in India imitation with a horn added?" That is overkill - more than they want to know.

So...did I spend years riding an Aussie saddle, or not? Do I ride in a Wade saddle, or not? Is a .45 Long Colt:

"_The most common “western” cartridge would surely be the .45 Long Colt. Many will say that it ought to be called simply the “.45 Colt”, as there is no “.45 Short Colt”. But to distinguish it from the .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) cartridge, I believe the .45 LC is a good name._"

The Box O' Truth #28 - Cowboy Pistols and The Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth

"_*Much to the irritation of cartridge buffs*, the .45 Colt is often* incorrectly referred to* as the “.45 Long Colt,” and many guns, cartridge boxes and cases have been so labeled. But this was never an official designation for the round._"

Reloading the .45 Colt - Guns & Ammo

And yes, I've had folks get all bent out of shape if I say, ".45 Long Colt"...:icon_rolleyes:...so I now have a 44 Magnum instead, and it is not "The MOst Powerful Handgun in the World", regardless of what Dirty Harry says.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

A true English Kimberwick/kimblewick has no slots at all bsms - doesn't even look like the 'old' one you've shown that you found on Wiki, that one looks more like a transition to the Uxeter.


You can call things whatever you like but for me as a British person seeing it from the perspective of someone taking a pony club exam or a BHS exam it does matter that you know which one is which
Standard Kimberwick Bit by Carlyle
You can buy them in the US - they just seem to refer to them as a 'standard' kimberwick as opposed to a slotted one I assume
Its not that different to the German Martingale which was/is called a Market Harborough in the UK and was called that long before anyone heard of a German martingale


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_You can call things whatever you like but for me as a British person seeing it from the perspective of someone taking a pony club exam or a BHS exam it does matter that you know which one is which._"

And technically, a .45 Long Colt is just a .45 Colt, since there is no such thing as a ".45 Short Colt". But if the only ones who care are those taking a BHS exam, then maybe the BHS exam needs updating. Maybe it is teaching out of date terminology.

Or maybe it is like when I was in England, and they told us a "rubber" is an eraser, not a condom...

"_Its not that different to the German Martingale which was/is called a Market Harborough in the UK..._"

When terminology doesn't match what the majority of people use, then are the people wrong, or the specialists? If the goal is communication, then isn't it prudent to use the terms your audience uses? When DOES terminology matter? Because if you tell a western rider to consider a "Market Harborough", he'll have no clue what you are talking about. And isn't communication the point?


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

bsms said:


> Or maybe it is like when I was in England, and they told us a "rubber" is an eraser, not a condom...
> 
> "_Its not that different to the German Martingale which was/is called a Market Harborough in the UK..._"
> 
> When terminology doesn't match what the majority of people use, then are the people wrong, or the specialists? If the goal is communication, then isn't it prudent to use the terms your audience uses? When DOES terminology matter? Because if you tell a western rider to consider a "Market Harborough", he'll have no clue what you are talking about. And isn't communication the point?


Hehe. The rubber comment reminds me of Spain Spanish vs Mexican Spanish referring to shots (the drink). In Spain 'chupito' (small suck, literally), is the term for a shot of alcohol. In Mexico, they don't use chupito, but might use 'caballito' ('small horse' lol). 
In Mexico, asking one to go out for 'chupitos' would not get you where you thought you were going, lol Whoopsy.

PS- So a Market Harborough is simply a different name for a German Martingale?
And I loved someone else's post on 'McCartys' for mecates. That pronunciation-change-over-to-English-spelling difference is awesome.


----------



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

:dance-smiley05:


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

GracielaGata said:


> And I loved someone else's post on 'McCartys' for mecates. That pronunciation-change-over-to-English-spelling difference is awesome.


 I never knew the proper spelling "mecate" so I spelled it like it sounded and never changed it. LOL

I am learning all kinds of new terminology on this thread!!!

Going back to the OP, around here, any feed that comes in a sack and use a scoop to feed is considered grain in a general sense.


----------



## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

bsms said:


> Some people call my saddle a "Wade" saddle:
> Wades


That was informative, I was under the impression that Wade saddles were a brand that happened to use the wood post tree as a trademark. It turns out I also had no idea what slick fork meant, I thought it was just a more upright design.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

jaydee said:


> A true English Kimberwick/kimblewick has no slots at all bsms - doesn't even look like the 'old' one you've shown that you found on Wiki, that one looks more like a transition to the Uxeter.
> 
> 
> You can call things whatever you like but for me as a British person seeing it from the perspective of someone taking a pony club exam or a BHS exam it does matter that you know which one is which
> ...


Lol, totally agree, and when it was developed in the UK, the correct terminology stays with the correct bit.


----------



## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

jaydee said:


> That is called an *Uxeter* Kimberwick
> A true kimberwick (that was originally called and is still commonly called in the UK a Kimblewick after the town in England where it was first made) doesn't have slots
> It actually makes a big difference when talking about using a Kimberwick because the Uxeter Kimberwick is able to produce more leverage action which increases the severity of the bit
> Do not always believe everything Google Images tells you
> It's a shame that modern terminologies are losing original one's especially when the 'difference' makes a big difference - its rather like the Tom Thumb being called a snaffle really



I agree with Jaydee. If I am correct, the original kimberwick had a solid low port mouth as did the Uxeter with the slots. You can now find them with higher ports, correctional mouths, and two and three piece broken mouths. So it becomes like saying someone uses a snaffle without saying loose ring, egg butt, or full cheek and indicating what type of mouthpiece it has


To comment on a previous post about Pelhams . . .A Pelham is not a curb bit but combines a curb function with a snaffle and would be used instead of a "full bridle" (Weymouth ?) that would have two separate bits, one being a curb and the other a narrow snaffle which I think is properly called a bridoon. And again a Pelham can have long or short shanks and a variety of solid or broken mouthpieces.


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Just to drift back to shooting from horseback - it really helps to have a shooting range in the backyard to desensitize the horses to gunfire! LOL. And because I use my near hand to shoot from the off side, I have to use my off hand to keep the horse between the reins, because, to shoot, my hips twist in the saddle giving the horse conflicting instructions. LOL. 

Grain was (and to me still is) a feed mix without molasses or any other sweetener. Add the molasses, and you have sweet feed. Other bagged foods were alfalfa pellets or cubes, corn bits, rolled oats, bran mash, etc. 

Now, however, I can go to my feed store and get 'sweet feeds' that are 10, 20, 30%, based on caloric count - generally used to fatten up a hard keeper, rather than something that will make a hot horse hotter. ~shrug~ I dunno anymore. 

Back when - a mechanical hackamore was a hackamore. If it didn't have leverage it was a just a side pull, or training rig (i.e., bosal - which isn't truly a side pull as the knot/reins come from under the jaw). Likewise, a snaffle has no leverage, and a curb does. And the longer the shank the more leverage - inch for pound or something like.

Buying hay meant getting 3 wire bales of alfalfa that weighted 100+lbs. Now, it means (where I live) getting 2 string, 60# bales of Bermuda. Free feed alfalfa would be WAY to much protein for a horse not being exercised regularly... but I look at the Bermuda and wonder if there's any protein in it at all! Yes - I read and understand the facts, but those are always arguing with years of experience. 

Terminology correctly used can be important in conveying specific detail to those who know and understand that terminology. Just as important, though, is to understand the vernacular of a region. Too often I have seen discussions get snarky when both parties are in vehement agreement but not conveying their thoughts in ways the other understands. Sometimes, you just gotta KISS it.

(KISS - Keep in simply simple) <-- G-rated.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Change said:


> Just to drift back to shooting from horseback - it really helps to have a shooting range in the backyard to desensitize the horses to gunfire! LOL. And because I use my near hand to shoot from the off side, I have to use my off hand to keep the horse between the reins, because, to shoot, my hips twist in the saddle giving the horse conflicting instructions. LOL.
> (KISS - Keep in simply simple) <-- G-rated.


I bet your horse loves the miscues lol. 
And oh so true on the backyard gun range. We don't do it often enough, but we do live where we have that same set up- shooting right next to their pasture. Plus all our 'neighbors' (no one is really that close) shoot at random coyote-scaring intervals as well, so they hear gunshots at least a few times per week.

I am guilty of the grain for all things. We don't feed any grain. I feed pelleted alfalfa that I wet down. But I still call it grain when I tell my husband I am going out to feed (or I just call it 'feed') because it is waaay less syllables. But I am sure to clarify to anyone else outside of us or when having a discussion on feeds/grains/concentrates.

And KISS with the original stupid isn't so bad. lol


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Change said:


> Just to drift back to shooting from horseback - it really helps to have a shooting range in the backyard to desensitize the horses to gunfire! LOL.


When I first moved to the barn I board at now, they used to have mounted shooting practices. I asked my BO how my gelding reacted to the shooting, as he had never been around guns of any kind. She laughed and said that every practice she had someone come up to her and ask her if that "big black and white paint was for sale 'cuz he was one cool cucumber once the shooting started" (her words, not mine). Aires was the only black and white pinto of any kind on the property at the time. Apparently, he was actually _curious_ about what was going on in the arena. She said he didn't care when anyone else used the arena, but when mounted shooting started, he'd stand there and watch with his ears pricked and this look of intense concentration on his face. All this while the majority of the other horses were going nuts every time a shot was fired.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Off-topic...but when a friend & I were being shot AT last fall, the horses were nervous (with good reason!) - but when asked to rush where the shooting was coming from (some idiots emptying pistols in the desert without a backstop) - they did it.

On topic...terminology matters for communication. If someone at the local feed & tack store asked me if I had seen the new snaffles, I wouldn't be shocked if they were referring to curb bits. Nor would I bother to correct them. I'm not up to saying, "_I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun! It's a CURB!_" 

Besides...I might want to talk them down on price...:wink:

It is tougher on the Internet since you have no way of knowing the background of the other person. If in doubt, ask. Terms like "collection" or "western snaffle" or "grain" mean different things to different people...and always will.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> On topic...terminology matters for communication. If someone at the local feed & tack store asked me if I had seen the new snaffles, I wouldn't be shocked if they were referring to curb bits. Nor would I bother to correct them. I'm not up to saying, *"I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun! It's a CURB!" *
> 
> Besides...I might want to talk them down on price...:wink:


:rofl:

Ahhhhhh!!! The LOTR reference is killin' me!


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Ahhhhhh!!! The LOTR reference is killin' me!


I was assuming it LOTR, thank you for clarifying for my lazy self! 

And I meant to add also your comments on Aires wanting to become a mounted shooting horse sound awesome! My mare is usually the 1st to check out new stuff- when we were on a new trail here, someone had tacked an Air Force poster to a tree (?!). She was all but dragging me over to go investigate this new thing, while my husband's gelding just stood waaay back with a look of 'oh, sure, yep, I will let you take care of this one.' He us such a big wuss.
But then she also loves to stick her head in trash cans too. lol (Any grain in there?! Nope, just us raccoons!)


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> There are no slots on a kimberwick bit!!!!!!!!!!!



Sure there are-on that fixed D ring!
If you attach reins tot he slot opposite the level of the mouthpiece, you have snaffle action. If you attach them in that slot off set below there the mouth piece exits to mouth, you have curb action


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here are some pictures. I sure see slots in that D ring, and mine is like the first one in that row

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Kimb...l=b_b8pYvOHYEEHM%3A%3BKo2BS6QQEKYecM%3Bhttp%2


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Just saw a perfect example of good communication regarding terminology in the thread @DreamCatcherArabians made to announce that Goldie was confirmed in foal to Skippy. A newer member asked what the term "have another US done" meant and DA replied that US was an ultrasound to confirm the pregnancy and heartbeat. We're all here to learn. There's no reason to get snippy or your knickers in a knot because someone doesn't understand what you mean.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

GracielaGata said:


> I was assuming it LOTR, thank you for clarifying for my lazy self!
> 
> And I meant to add also your comments on Aires wanting to become a mounted shooting horse sound awesome! My mare is usually the 1st to check out new stuff- when we were on a new trail here, someone had tacked an Air Force poster to a tree (?!). She was all but dragging me over to go investigate this new thing, while my husband's gelding just stood waaay back with a look of 'oh, sure, yep, I will let you take care of this one.' He us such a big wuss.
> But then she also loves to stick her head in trash cans too. lol (Any grain in there?! Nope, just us raccoons!)


I'm a bit of a LOTR buff. :redface: Drives my husband nuts, 'cuz I can quote just about the whole thing (even the extended editions). Although, whenever someone says "potato" on TV, he immediately wants me to recite Samwise's line from The Two Towers: "Po-ta-toes. Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew." :icon_rolleyes:

When I first bought Aires, he'd never been off the property in the two years he'd lived there since he came down from Canada as a weanling. So, since I wanted/needed a fearless trail horse, I took him on walks and showed him stuff. His favorite game is "Show me." Anything that he gets looky at, I walk him over to it and tell him to "show me" what it is. Now I have the only horse most people have seen who LOVES mailboxes (the weirder, the better), plays with trash cans (and doesn't spook if he "accidentally" knocks it over), and just likes exploring new things. My best friend was riding him in the arena at the barn for the first time a couple of years ago and she took him down one side where there's a shed and then some rusty farm equipment as decoration. He "spooked" at the farm equipment and got looky, so I told her to take him over and ask him to show her what it was. She did and he reached his head over, sniffed it, then was like "Oh, cool" and ignored it the rest of the ride. :lol:


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Sure there are-on that fixed D ring!
> If you attach reins tot he slot opposite the level of the mouthpiece, you have snaffle action. If you attach them in that slot off set below there the mouth piece exits to mouth, you have curb action



See THIS is a true Kimblewick










Rather than a Uexter Kimblewick that has slots...

So this is where we run into issues of is it correct terminology, being pedantic or trying to get better understanding....

Kind of like, as a dressage rider, both English and Western a leg yield is a specific movement, rather than a horse just moving off the leg.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I'm a bit of a LOTR buff. :redface: Drives my husband nuts, 'cuz I can quote just about the whole thing (even the extended editions). Although, whenever someone says "potato" on TV, he immediately wants me to recite Samwise's line from The Two Towers: "Po-ta-toes. Boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew." :icon_rolleyes:
> 
> When I first bought Aires, he'd never been off the property in the two years he'd lived there since he came down from Canada as a weanling. So, since I wanted/needed a fearless trail horse, I took him on walks and showed him stuff. His favorite game is "Show me." Anything that he gets looky at, I walk him over to it and tell him to "show me" what it is. Now I have the only horse most people have seen who LOVES mailboxes (the weirder, the better), plays with trash cans (and doesn't spook if he "accidentally" knocks it over), and just likes exploring new things. My best friend was riding him in the arena at the barn for the first time a couple of years ago and she took him down one side where there's a shed and then some rusty farm equipment as decoration. He "spooked" at the farm equipment and got looky, so I told her to take him over and ask him to show her what it was. She did and he reached his head over, sniffed it, then was like "Oh, cool" and ignored it the rest of the ride. :lol:


The potato quote is awesome lol. My hubby and daughter are buffs too. I would be as well, if I could stay awake long enough to finish and memorize a movie lol. Haven't read the books yet... one day. 

I love your 'show me' command. I think I may start that with my mare, since she enjoys seeing new things. She isn't quite as non-spook as Aires, so could use that. But I give her credit- she doesn't spook much at all, and never very strong at all. Just a snort and sideways bum usually.
And the mailboxes- when I first got her, she was green and young, and I was green. We would go on trail rides near where she was boarded, and I could never figure out why we always ended up on top of mailboxes- I thought she has interest in them and brought us to them. Nope, I was concentrating so hard on not running them over, I body-lead her straight to them lol.


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Avna said:


> Google Image disagrees. More do than don't. What do you call a bit with slots and a curb chain but no shank, yourself?



LOL, If I Google Western Snaffle Bit, half the results are in fact curbs of some description, Google is NOT that smart:wink:


----------



## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Filly Colt.........Seriously. Out here Foal is a verb, as in "She foaled last night and had the cutest little Filly Colt (pronounced more feely coat) you ever saw."


This is an odd one.

At least half the people I have heard use this term have real Cowboy cred with dozens of started horses behind them. 

Buck Brannaman calls any young horse being trained a "Colt". 

Of course he knows the difference. I think the people who use "Colt" this way use it like the word "Kid" for human children, even though that is the real term for a baby goat. 

Also, Cowboys love to use slang. It is practically an art form. There must be 10 different ways to pronounce "Brahman", but few people actually just call them by their actual name. 

Listen to any of Chris Ledoux's early stuff. He must use every slang word for a rough horse, and probably still missed a few.

A classic example of what I'm talking about, just not with horse gender words.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

jgnmoose- 
This reminds me of the way people here in rural eastern WA seem to pronounce 'gelding' Many people call them 'guildings,' as if they are gilded in gold or something?


----------



## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

GracielaGata said:


> jgnmoose-
> This reminds me of the way people here in rural eastern WA seem to pronounce 'gelding' Many people call them 'guildings,' as if they are gilded in gold or something?


Lol, that is great.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

GracielaGata said:


> jgnmoose-
> This reminds me of the way people here in rural eastern WA seem to pronounce 'gelding' Many people call them 'guildings,' as if they are gilded in gold or something?


There was a running "argument" between my mom and the teacher she did her student teaching with (they ended up teaching at the same school for another ten years or so). The other teacher was from Washington state or somewhere like that and pronounced the word "wash" as "wush." My mom, who was born and raised in southern California pronounced it "warsh." It was _hilarious_ listening to them go back and forth over which was correct...when technically, neither were. :lol:


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> There was a running "argument" between my mom and the teacher she did her student teaching with (they ended up teaching at the same school for another ten years or so). The other teacher was from Washington state or somewhere like that and pronounced the word "wash" as "wush." My mom, who was born and raised in southern California pronounced it "warsh." It was _hilarious_ listening to them go back and forth over which was correct...when technically, neither were. :lol:


Exactly!!! Even people from eastern WA all pronounce 'wash' different. Oddly enough, my old(er) friend who does the 'r' in there, doesn't as much when saying the full name of the state, only when she does clothes lol. Go figure. 

Oh, and chaps!!! Who hears people call them 'shaps' ??!?!?!?! Many people here do! My brain can't handle that- makes me wanna offer them some shapstick for their shapped lips! makes me think of Stewie from Family Guy with his 'whhhhiped cream' strong 'h' in there lol That one we quote a lot anytime a conversation has a 'wh' in it: i.e., 'wHHHere is ___.' lol Almost like the German fricative! lol


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

GracielaGata said:


> Oh, and chaps!!! Who hears people call them 'shaps' ??!?!?!?! Many people here do! My brain can't handle that- makes me wanna offer them some shapstick for their shapped lips! makes me think of Stewie from Family Guy with his 'whhhhiped cream' strong 'h' in there lol That one we quote a lot anytime a conversation has a 'wh' in it: i.e., 'wHHHere is ___.' lol Almost like the German fricative! lol


I hear both and it always makes me laugh, because everyone knows that a car has a chassis, pronounced shassis, at least in my country it is.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

@Golden Horse- really?! I think in the US it is 'Chass-ie' (the '***' being like the animal, so all rhymes with 'cassie' the name, but with a hard 'ch' like in 'chew.' 
I wonder if I am wrong, as I am not a car person.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Suppose someone asks on HF - and I've seen it a number of times - "How do I collect my horse's head?"

The PROPER answer is, "Hire a taxidermist!"

A HELPFUL answer is, "What are you trying to achieve?"

Google Images has no interest in what is "proper". It only cares about "what people USE". So if communication is your goal, use Google. If educating others in proper terminology is the goal, buy a BHS manual...and try to convince America to go metric.

It is like telling my RN wife that someone had a heart attack. 

"You mean a 'cardiac arrest'!"

"No, _YOU_ meant a 'cardiac arrest'. _I_ meant a 'heart attack'!"


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

GracielaGata said:


> Oh, and chaps!!! Who hears people call them 'shaps' ??!?!?!?! Many people here do! My brain can't handle that- makes me wanna offer them some shapstick for their shapped lips! makes me think of Stewie from Family Guy with his 'whhhhiped cream' strong 'h' in there lol That one we quote a lot anytime a conversation has a 'wh' in it: i.e., 'wHHHere is ___.' lol Almost like the German fricative! lol


Around here, it's "shaps," as that is how it is pronounced in the original Spanish. Chaps is a shortened form of chaparral, named after the dense, coarse bushes that the early cowboys rode through from which the chaps protected their legs. Chaparral being pronounced "shap-arrell."

My husband and I always do the "WHeat thins" like Stewie does, where he puts the emphasis on the WH sound. That inevitably leads to us reciting the whole bit. 







GracielaGata said:


> @Golden Horse- really?! I think in the US it is 'Chass-ie' (the '***' being like the animal, so all rhymes with 'cassie' the name, but with a hard 'ch' like in 'chew.'
> I wonder if I am wrong, as I am not a car person.


Where I come from, it's pronounced "CHassie," even by the car guys.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> Suppose someone asks on HF - and I've seen it a number of times - "How do I collect my horse's head?"
> 
> The PROPER answer is, "Hire a taxidermist!"
> 
> ...


My husband and I have this argument all the time. What is meant versus what is said. Because of his TBI and ADHD, he sometimes uses the incorrect word in a sentence. A perfect example is when we were watching the news last night. There was a blurb about Donald Trump's pic with the taco salad and the news team decided to interview a local Mexican restaurateur about it. She couldn't have cared less about what "The Don" had posted, however she asserted that the taco salads at Trump Tower Grill were not the best, but that the ones at her restaurant were the best. Her exact words were "You can ask anyone and they will _contest_ that ours are the best." Contest means to oppose. She meant to say _attest_, which means to witness or affirm. My husband had a ten minute argument with me that "contest" could mean the same as "attest" and that it may be an old form of "attest." :icon_rolleyes:


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

@DraftyAiresMum Yes, wHeat thins! And yes to the whole bit! lol

As for shaps- how odd, since Spanish on the whole has the 'ch' as 'ch' not, 'sh.' Must be a regional Mexican country pronunciation. I remember when I went to college in Spain, I lived in a VERY rural town- no one really spoke English at all. The Spanish- wow- it was like a foreigner learning English, then going deep south or to Boston and hearing them speak- nothing like what you are taught. Needless to say, no one can figure my Spanish out, since most days it is the rural, countrified Spanish accent, with an occasional Cuban or Puerto Rican intonation due to my husband's family lol.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> My husband and I have this argument all the time. What is meant versus what is said. Because of his TBI and ADHD, he sometimes uses the incorrect word in a sentence. A perfect example is when we were watching the news last night. There was a blurb about Donald Trump's pic with the taco salad and the news team decided to interview a local Mexican restaurateur about it. She couldn't have cared less about what "The Don" had posted, however she asserted that the taco salads at Trump Tower Grill were not the best, but that the ones at her restaurant were the best. Her exact words were "You can ask anyone and they will _contest_ that ours are the best." Contest means to oppose. She meant to say _attest_, which means to witness or affirm. My husband had a ten minute argument with me that "contest" could mean the same as "attest" and that it may be an old form of "attest." :icon_rolleyes:


I am with your hubby that to use contest this way is perfectly okay. You are doing both- she was literally contesting Trump's words, AND she is also attesting/affirming that her sentence is more correct.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jgnmoose said:


> This is an odd one.
> 
> At least half the people I have heard use this term have real Cowboy cred with dozens of started horses behind them.
> 
> Buck Brannaman calls any young horse being trained a "Colt".


I don't care about calling everything a colt, I know what they're talking about and don't get to wound up about it, but FILLY COLT just cracks me right up. And everyone is a "colt starter" not necessarily a trainer, LOL! 

But the jobs get done, the world still turns and Shar-leers still taste good and so do Bray-mers. :icon_rolleyes: (We need a tongue in cheek icon.)


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Which one is a Bray-mer?


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> LOL, If I Google Western Snaffle Bit, half the results are in fact curbs of some description, Google is NOT that smart:wink:


Well,t hat of course is due tot he fact that even professionals and tack catalogs use terms for convenience, similar to grain for any concentrate, knowing what they actually mean, but un fortunately, that causes problems when people take that word literally!
Then any concentrate becomes grain, even when it contains no grain, thus hot calories, and in fact has cool calories. I have had people decide their hard keeper metabolic horse should be taken off his "grain', because they have heard not to feed grain to an IR horse, thus remove those needed safe cool calories

You are not going to see any professionals turning up at a hackamore/snaffle bit class, with either a curb with a broken mouth piece, nor a mechanical hackamore, nor train a colt with either, thinking they are using a snaffle or a bosal.
See it all the time at open type shows, and also on boards, where a person declares they are riding with a snaffle, when in fact, it is a curb-that infamous shanked snaffle!

Far as slots, as on the D ring of many kimberwicks, if the reins are attached to the slot below the level of that bit, it is acurb


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

GracielaGata said:


> Which one is a Bray-mer?


They're Brahman cattle, but around here they're called Bray-mers.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> They're Brahman cattle, but around here they're called Bray-mers.


Oh yeah, I forgot about those. What is the proper way to say it- brah-mahm, as it's spelled?


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

We say "brah-mah" around here.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Wait, Brahma and brahman are the same?!!!?!?!?!


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

GracielaGata said:


> Wait, Brahma and brahman are the same?!!!?!?!?!


Yep. 

I know it's Wikipedia, but...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman_(cattle)


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Yep.
> 
> I know it's Wikipedia, but...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman_(cattle)


I wonder if the fact that I have chickens make that get my attention more. 
There is a 'light brahma' chicken. I don't have any... but the word for me only associates with chickens, so I didn't know that the word is also the same as a different pronunciation of brahman cows/bulls/cattle.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is another one, often seen in horse ads , 'the horse has great confirmation. I'm always tempted to ask, if the horse was raised like I was, thus a Lutheran , who was confirmed. One can confirm that a horse has good conformation, by analizing as to how he is put together
Most of us know that a buffalo is actually a Bison


Early American settlers called bison “bufello” due to the similar appearance between the two animals, and the name "buffalo" stuck for the American variety. But it's wrong.

The American bison (Bison bison) lives only in North America, while the two main buffalo species reside in Africa and Asia. A small population of bison relatives called the European bison (Bison bonasus) lives in isolated parts of Poland

- See more at: Bison vs. Buffalo: What's the Difference?


----------



## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

GracielaGata said:


> Wait, Brahma and brahman are the same?!!!?!?!?!


Yep.

Brammer, Braymer, Bramen. You could go to the Decatur TX livestock auction on Mondays and hear five people from the area pronounce it different. I don't know why, but it is like a game to pronounce it weird.


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Big cow/steer/bull with funny bump on shoulders. That one. Uh-huh. ;-)


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Change said:


> Big cow/steer/bull with funny bump on shoulders. That one. Uh-huh. ;-)


Oh yeah!! Its the one with the funny camel back hump! lol 
They are Indian, aren't they? 

And I always use 'cow' even for a male, yes, I know it should be bull or steer... My confusion- is there no singular unisex term for cattle? I.E. we have 'horse' to mean either sex, for instance. Besides 'dinner' or 'hamburger' that is.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

GracielaGata said:


> Oh yeah!! Its the one with the funny camel back hump! lol
> They are Indian, aren't they?
> 
> And I always use 'cow' even for a male, yes, I know it should be bull or steer... My confusion- is there no singular unisex term for cattle? I.E. we have 'horse' to mean either sex, for instance. Besides 'dinner' or 'hamburger' that is.


Actually, "cow" _is_ the unisex singular. If you're going to designate sex, it's heifer, bull, and steer. 

Brahman are a type of zebu cattle that were originally bred in America from stock brought over from India. They were the first beef breed developed in America, so technically they are an American breed. They were created by crossing the Kankrej, Ongole, and Gir breeds of cattle. (Yay Google!  )


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Actually, "cow" _is_ the unisex singular. If you're going to designate sex, it's heifer, bull, and steer.
> 
> Brahman are a type of zebu cattle that were originally bred in America from stock brought over from India. They were the first beef breed developed in America, so technically they are an American breed. They were created by crossing the Kankrej, Ongole, and Gir breeds of cattle. (Yay Google!  )


I always get corrected when I say 'cow' for boy cattle it seems. Guess I was right all along! 
And I did see they are bred from Zebu... Zebu are so cool looking, as are Brahman/Bramha/Braymers/etc/ lol (PS, I think I just read your same sources!  )


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

Bovine is also the unisex for cattle. But don't try using it in a conversation with a cattleman. He'll likely spew his beer all over you! ;-)


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Haha, Change!! Yes, bovine would be the equivalent of equine, canine, and feline. I assume. Which makes us humines, last I checked. 

I don't think I ever thought to use bovine as the 'regular' term, as it is more scientific, so I assumed since I was always corrected from cow, that there wasn't one.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"OK, boys, time to saddle up and move some BOVINES!"

"An old cowboy went ridin out one dark and windy day
Upon a ridge he rested as he went along his way
When all at once a mighty herd of red-eyed BOVINES he saw
Plowin through the ragged skies and up a cloudy draw..."

Just isn't the same...so I guess sometimes terminology DOES count!


----------



## weeedlady (Jul 19, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Actually, "cow" _is_ the unisex singular. If you're going to designate sex, it's heifer, bull, and steer.


Around hear a Heifer is a young female. I think after she's had a calf, she becomes a cow.
_M_


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> LOL, If I Google Western Snaffle Bit, half the results are in fact curbs of some description, Google is NOT that smart:wink:


Google isn't smart at all, it's a mathematical calculation. What I meant to show is that one relatively narrow definition of a word isn't how a lot of other people understand it. Google just shows what the most popular images going by that name are. 

No force in the 'verse can stop language evolution.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Avna said:


> No force in the 'verse can stop language evolution.


A "like" for the Firefly reference. Though I might have gone with "power" over "force." ;-)


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> A "like" for the Firefly reference. Though I might have gone with "power" over "force." ;-)


True, very true.


----------



## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I love this thread. I am a bit of a pedantic, but I don't mind asking someone for clarification.


It's interesting what horse folks take for granted, word wise. I thoroughly confused my hubby when I told him I needed to look at bell boots last time we were at the feed store. He got all excited, saying he found them, I went around the corner and he was holding up soaking boots. I found the bells a few aisles down and showed them to him. He was ****ed. To him a boot must go under the sole to protect from the ground surface, so that was NOT a boot. I then showed him splint BOOTS, sport medicine BOOTS, open front BOOTS. He was actually pretty mad. I asked him what he would call them and he replied "shin guards". I then explained that the equivalent of our shin is actually the horse's gaskin, while the cannon that we cover with "boots" is equivalent to our plantar and palmar surfaces. He still won't call them boots, lol.


----------



## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

A few more that I am fond of, but have yet to nitpick anyone about.

"Buckaroo". People think this is just a goofy/cute name for any and all Cowboys. Nope. It is a specific version of the American Cowboy that is basically an Americanized Vaquero. They live in the Great Basin area (Northern California/Nevada, Idaho, Eastern Oregon). Everything including dress, tack and training/handling preferences is different (but perfectly legitimate, if not sometimes superior), to say "Cow Punchers" which is the classic Texas Cowboy. 

"Hackamore". It isn't genuinely a Hackamore unless it is a rawhide braided Bosal with a leather hanger and Mecate reins. By the way, this is a mangling of "Jaquima", the Spanish word for this headset. 

On the subject of Spanish mangling. There is no such thing as a Ten Gallon hat. This phrase actually comes from another Spanish term "tan galan" which translates to very stylish.

"Assless Chaps". They all are.


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I dunno...I've met some chaps who were 100% asses...


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Okay, here's one for you. I have never heard this before.

Looking at ads on Craigslist and come across an ad for a Circle Y saddle. Looks like a Wade, so I open up the ad and read it. Second to the last sentence on the ad is "It's A frame saddle with _*squaw tits*_." :shock: 

Wait...what?! 

I'm assuming they mean bucking rolls.

FWIW, it's a nice-looking saddle:
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/wvl/grd/5578872772.html


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!!

OK, that has ruined the option of bucking rolls for me forever. I'd never be able to keep a straight face while riding...








​ 
Oh well. I took them off after a week anyways. Mia wasn't a bucker, and Bandit doesn't either. Not really. He gets "hopping mad" sometimes, but not to the point of real bucking. In my terminology, hopping mad is very different from 'get off my back' bucking.

But I now know how to describe my saddle to someone. It's not a "Wade", it's an A frame....

PS - Since they are removable, does that make them "falsies"?

PSS - Now we know why those old time buckaroos sang, "Happy Trails to you..."


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> "OK, boys, time to saddle up and move some BOVINES!"
> 
> "An old cowboy went ridin out one dark and windy day
> Upon a ridge he rested as he went along his way
> ...


Bovineboys , just does not have the same ring as cowboys !
Bovine puncher, versus cow puncher.
Women don't mind at times being called a cowgril, but add bovine to a woman ,as an adjective, and quite sure she will be insulted!


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

bsms said:


> In my terminology, hopping mad is very different from 'get off my back' bucking.


Depending on the attitude behind them, I call those little bucks "I don't wanna" bucks. :lol: At least that's what the only one Aires has ever thrown at me was.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

However, we do have 'cattle drives and not cowdrives!

Also, going along song lyrics, 'don't call him a cowboy, until you see him ride' !


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Given MY level of riding, maybe I ought to call myself a "bovineboy"...

Heck, it might be a good thing to call some of the buckarroo-wannabes! *All costume, no seat!*

Or maybe, "_It's a good thing those chaps are assless, cuz he ain't got no seat to put in 'em anyhow..._"

And Bandit's bucks are ALL "I don't wanna" bucks. But the last time he tried one, my leg was about 6" from cactus and I was NOT amused.


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Depending on the attitude behind them, I call those little bucks "I don't wanna" bucks. :lol: At least that's what the only one Aires has ever thrown at me was.



How does a crow hop? Apparently, like a horse that does not buck seriously!

how do you sunfish! Apparently though, a bad bucker, as in Marty Robins, song, 'turning his ole belly right up to the sun', is a sun fishing son of a gun!
A good cutting horse is said to be 'cowy'. Somehow, being boviney, just does not ring right!
Some guys do like to be called a stud, though!


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

And since I've always said I wanted my horse to "talk" to me, and tell me what he thinks, maybe I could call them "*Can you hear me NOW?*" bucks...:cheers:


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In the end, each little world of interest, develops it's own slang,.
You know, everyone watching gang type movies, knows what being iced is, or what it means to 'sleep with the fishes' and when a Godfather, is not really some family relative
Ever check to see if some new person is truly green behind the ears? A greenhorn is a hardly a tarnished forgotten trumpet!


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Okay, here's one for you. I have never heard this before.
> 
> Looking at ads on Craigslist and come across an ad for a Circle Y saddle. Looks like a Wade, so I open up the ad and read it. Second to the last sentence on the ad is "It's A frame saddle with _*squaw tits*_." :shock:
> 
> ...


Squaw tits has become another name for bucking rolls but those are not true squaw tits. We have some somewhere, I'll see if I can't post a picture. They actually have nipples on them...lol


----------



## KLJcowgirl (Oct 13, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Okay, here's one for you. I have never heard this before.
> 
> Looking at ads on Craigslist and come across an ad for a Circle Y saddle. Looks like a Wade, so I open up the ad and read it. Second to the last sentence on the ad is "It's A frame saddle with _*squaw tits*_." :shock:
> 
> ...


My Grandpa always called them that. My mom told me of the day when she was a young teen he sent her into the local tack shop for some. She said the look on the clerks face when she asked if they had Squaw Tits was priceless. He pulled her close and whispered "Honey, I think you mean bucking rolls" and pointed her in the right direction. I had always wondered if others called them that or if it was just my grandpa being silly... :icon_rolleyes::lol:

He also called Jolly Ranchers "Gay Farmers", that caused my mother another day of embarrassment... he had lots of weird names for stuff.

Edit: @COWCHICK77, we posted at the same time... I had no idea bout that... guess the tack store guy didn't know about that either haha Either way, I've gotta see them!


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Squaw tits has become another name for bucking rolls but those are not true squaw tits. We have some somewhere, I'll see if I can't post a picture. They actually have nipples on them...lol


It's bad enough that someone called them squaw tits to begin with...now I find out that they aren't TRUE squaw tits?! :rofl:


----------



## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Cayuse, bailer, mallard, sunfisher, crow hop, star gazer, bangtail, kack, broomy, floater, outlaw, "Canadian made".

It must be fun to make up terms like that, I see why there are so many.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Smilie said:


> How does a crow hop? Apparently, like a horse that does not buck seriously!


I always assumed those I don't wanna bucks were considered crow hops. I have gotten a few of those out of my mare on occasion. I like them as 'Do you hear me nows?!' lol



Smilie said:


> In the end, each little world of interest, develops it's own slang,.
> You know, everyone watching gang type movies, knows what being iced is, or what it means to 'sleep with the fishes' and when a Godfather, is not really some family relative
> Ever check to see if some new person is truly green behind the ears? A greenhorn is a hardly a tarnished forgotten trumpet!


I never realized that is why a greenhorn is a greenhorn!!! I *love* learning where insane sounding phrases come from, such as 'don't throw the baby with the bathwater' type stuff.... 

These are all very cool!


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

The term buckaroo has actually became a derogatory term around here due to the flat hat craze that has come about. 

"That guy is a cowboy." Is a very good compliment. Being called a buckaroo is not. 
And as a girl if you are called a cowboy, the same. The term cowgirl is not used as cowboying is a job so male or female is a cowboy.


----------



## Celeste (Jul 3, 2011)

COWCHICK77 said:


> The term buckaroo has actually became a derogatory term around here due to the flat hat craze that has come about.
> 
> "That guy is a cowboy." Is a very good compliment. Being called a buckaroo is not.
> And as a girl if you are called a cowboy, the same. The term cowgirl is not used as cowboying is a job so male or female is a cowboy.


I hope they don't start saying "cowperson".


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Celeste said:


> I hope they don't start saying "cowperson".


Ahh, but 'bovineperson' would be MUCH worse.


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Celeste said:


> I hope they don't start saying "cowperson".





GracielaGata said:


> Ahh, but 'bovineperson' would be MUCH worse.


Lol, oh geez I hope not!


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

This has developed into a very entertaining thread!


----------



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

well, in this day of 'political correctness, I am surprised those bucking rolls are called squaw tits!
At the Ya Ha tinda, up on one old pack trail those goes along a ridge, above the tree line, a formation there used to be called Chinaman's Hat. It is now called the ice cream cone!
Brazil nuts once were referred to a ****** Toes-also won't hear that today, so is 'squaw tits a hold out, in Red neck country?


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, we still have the Grand Teton range in Wyoming...


----------



## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Smilie said:


> well, in this day of 'political correctness, I am surprised those bucking rolls are called squaw tits!
> At the Ya Ha tinda, up on one old pack trail those goes along a ridge, above the tree line, a formation there used to be called Chinaman's Hat. It is now called the ice cream cone!
> Brazil nuts once were referred to a ****** Toes-also won't hear that today, so is 'squaw tits a hold out, in Red neck country?


The cowboy crowd isn't really known for political correctness. LOL


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-breeds/differences-coldblood-horse-warmblood-horse-704489/

MY definition of warmblood (small w) would probably offend breeders of Warmbloods. Although I had an Arabian mare (Lilly) I would have trusted with just about anyone, and have met stock horses I didn't want to get near, let alone get on!


----------



## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Being offended by something is the new thing to do.

Warmblood is like Thoroughbred. They should have picked better names as each actually means something else. Their (breed association/foundation) fault if you use it wrong, in my opinion.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Avna said:


> This has developed into a very entertaining thread!


Yes it has. 




Smilie said:


> well, in this day of 'political correctness, I am surprised those bucking rolls are called squaw tits!
> At the Ya Ha tinda, up on one old pack trail those goes along a ridge, above the tree line, a formation there used to be called Chinaman's Hat. It is now called the ice cream cone!
> Brazil nuts once were referred to a ****** Toes-also won't hear that today, so is 'squaw tits a hold out, in Red neck country?


There are TONS of places with 'bad' names in WA, from what I have heard (self transplanted here 4 years ago, still learning. lol). I also saw tale that they are possibly changing some... Ugh... its like the Redskins/any Indian mascot argument...  STUPID.

Though I do agree calling them Brazil nuts now is much better. The N word is the only one I can think of right now that I hate. It is associated with so much crap from rap music idiots.


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

When my mare does those "I don't wanna" or "can you hear me now" crow-hoppy dances, I just call them "hissy-fits." 

My son is a dog person, but he loves the horses. He won't ride them, but loves handling them. I laugh when he uses dog commands like "stay" or "heel."


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Change said:


> My son is a dog person, but he loves the horses. He won't ride them, but loves handling them. I laugh when he uses dog commands like "stay" or "heel."


*whispers* I do that too sometimes. :redface:


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Change said:


> When my mare does those "I don't wanna" or "can you hear me now" crow-hoppy dances, I just call them "hissy-fits."
> 
> My son is a dog person, but he loves the horses. He won't ride them, but loves handling them. I laugh when he uses dog commands like "stay" or "heel."


I also use 'stand' as a horse command also. I started it when I taught my mare to ground tie. 'Whoa' simply means stop walking/stop where you are (when under saddle) or it is also a calming 'easy boy/girl' type command. 

'Stand' has become my command for you need to quit the crap and keep all four feet planted on the ground right where you are. I mostly use it when I am trying to get all 3 horses thru a gate while I keep my mare in the halter, so they are slightly controlled thru one pasture to the next. I 'whoa' then 'stand' the one gelding to tell him to back the bleep up and keep all 4 feet planted where they are. He gets it, usually better than the whoa alone, or when they are both used as whoa- stop where you are, stand- STAY where you are.
I also use it when the farrier is working with them to tell them that the position they chose/were put into works just fine, so quit trying to shift over 2 feet when he comes near you. The farrier sometimes forgets that is what I am doing and tells me to 'whoa' them instead. But then I explain to him again why I said it (Since it is so rare that it is needed). He looks at me and says 'oh sorry, carry on.' lol


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

I should add that I whoa and stand my dogs all the time.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Graciela, I use "stand" with my gelding, too. I started using it with my old gelding when he'd start getting antsy while tied (which was always :lol: ).


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

- Stand means "stay, and plant those feet."
- Whoa means "stop."
- Ho means "pay attention" or "slow down"
- Walk on means "keep moving"
- Step up means "get moving" or "move faster"
- Bleep bleep bleep you stupid bleep bleeping bleep means "You better stop that or you're dog food!

Edited to add:
I also use 'easy,' 'back,' 'wait,' and a few others.


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I use "step up" when I want Aires to step onto something. Have used it to load him in a trailer and to get him to step onto something scary (cement, wet cement, stall mats, a stacked trail bridge :lol: ). I also use just "step" if I want him to move one stop in a direction (I'll usually be poking him in the direction I want him to move and add "step" to reinforce when I'm asking, if he isn't listening).


----------



## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

GracielaGata said:


> I should add that I whoa and stand my dogs all the time.


And kids, sometimes husband..have also been known to try and WHOA the truck, and I often cluck to it.


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

Drafty- Yeah I don't use step up so much as 'load up' to trailer load. 
(But first she must inspect it, then circle back and get on. Go figure lol)

I use ' back, back, back... step down' to denote that she needs to back out the trailer then step down when the lip/edge comes.

When I first got my horse, I clucked and whoa'd EVERYTHING. Now I don't seem to do it as much to non-animals at least anymore... which is good, because I am sure other shoppers got quite tired of it. 

Plus hip thrusts and and expectation that they move really doesn't look very good! ;P


----------



## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

GracielaGata said:


> Drafty- Yeah I don't use step up so much as 'load up' to trailer load.
> (But first she must inspect it, then circle back and get on. Go figure lol)
> 
> I use ' back, back, back... step down' to denote that she needs to back out the trailer then step down when the lip/edge comes.
> ...


I poke my husband, my dogs AND my cats to get them to move out of my way, usually while growling "Move!" like I would with Aires. :lol: At first my husband would get soooooooo offended, but once he saw me do it to Aires, he was like "Smeh. Whatever." :lol:


----------



## GracielaGata (Jan 14, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I poke my husband, my dogs AND my cats to get them to move out of my way, usually while growling "Move!" like I would with Aires. :lol: At first my husband would get soooooooo offended, but once he saw me do it to Aires, he was like "Smeh. Whatever." :lol:


I suppose I still do that one with my family... but that likely existed before horses. I tend to get in people's personal spaces a bit when I know them lol


----------



## Change (Jul 19, 2014)

For side work, "Give" means I want the hind to give, "Cross" for the front end, and "Side" for both at the same time. 

"Move" works with every thing, including other vehicles on the road.


----------

