# Discipline or Abuse?



## tempest

Some people have difficulty distinguishing between discipline and abuse. My question is what is your definition of discipline and of abuse? Is hitting your horse abuse? Some people believe it is. So I want to know what you think about it.


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## county

Depends, if you hit it over and over for a length of time its abuse. If you hit it within 3 seconds of an infraction its discipline. Alot depends on what you hit it with also, some think you should never hit with anything because its abuse. But I promise your never going to hit a horse with your hand and inflict as much hurt as another horse will by kicking it to teach discipline. A mare will discipline a foal with much more force then anyone can by hand.


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## Cat

It depends on the situation and how the punishment is carried out. Punishment should happen immediately after the offending action, be quick and only last a few seconds if that, and fitting of the crime.

If a horse does something dangerous - like try to bite or kick - he is going to get a quick and immediate punishment that may include me whacking the offending part. Quick and immediate being key. Something that is a clear punishment immediately after would be considered abuse and just confusing to the horse even 30 seconds later because they can not connect the two if its not immediately after the offending action. 

It also has to be quick. Anything beyond a few seconds is punishment stemming from anger in my opinion and that is going into abuse. 

And the punishment should be fitting of the crime. Dangerous actions that are done on purpose to hurt - like biting or kicking, may result in an actual whack, while lesser crimes would result with just a verbal reprimand.


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## Whipple

This is a good question. I am still not familiar with horses enough to really know the difference. At first I had a problem using the crop at all. But I realized some horses need to know it's there to behave.
That being said, one horse, Issac, is a brat. He likes to bite. And not nip or play, bite! I refuse to lead him. Anyhow, he went after a leader once in class (before a rider was on his back, thank God!) and she wacked him a few times hard on the nose. I think he got the point, and it was definately close enough to the actual biting act that he connected it. But some of the students thought that the leader was hurting him. I didn't know what to think at the time. I guess I still don't. But I figure it probably depends mostly on the horse and situation. As long as it's appropriate and whatnot, then it's not abuse.


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## tempest

What about when you're holding the horse and it refuses to stand still so you jerk on the reins?


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## smrobs

tempest said:


> What about when you're holding the horse and it refuses to stand still so you jerk on the reins?


That, I think, really depends on the horse and the particular incident. Is it a horse that is young or afraid? Is he a well trained horse that could be in pain? Is he just being a turd and trying to get next to his friend? Those are all questions to consider in a situation like that. If the horse is young, he may not know that he is supposed to stand still. If he is afraid, his flight instinct may be causing his movement. If he is in pain, movement may help make him more comfortable. If it is any of those, then jerking on the reins will not help and may only make it worse. However; if he is just being a turd and knows what is expected of him, jerking lightly on the reins just enough to get his attention can correct the problem.

I may be a little more harsh with my horses than some people and I am sure that there are lots of people that would say that I abuse my horses because I do give them a pop or a yank every now and then when they need it. A little snippet of advise that my Dad gave me that he learned from decades of working with horses many of which were considered "problem" horses.

"If the horse is afraid, then work with him and show him that he has nothing to fear from you and he can depend on you for support. Never punish a horse for spooking or being scared because it will only make the problem worse. If the horse is aggressive or spoiled, often there will come a point when the only choice is you or him. Many times, that means hurting him before he hurts you. Although, once he stops the undesirable action, then you must stop the reprimand."

Sometimes, you do have to show a horse that you are still the boss and he is a subordinate. I use the same principle with my horses that I do with inmates. "I will give you orders and if you refuse to follow those orders, I will use the minimum amount of force necessary to regain your compliance." Of course, that only works if the horse knows what you are asking and is just ignoring you or trying to dominate you.


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## wild_spot

> "If the horse is afraid, then work with him and show him that he has nothing to fear from you and he can depend on you for support. Never punish a horse for spooking or being scared because it will only make the problem worse. If the horse is aggressive or spoiled, often there will come a point when the only choice is you or him. Many times, that means hurting him before he hurts you. Although, once he stops the undesirable action, then you must stop the reprimand."


This is amazing advice. This is pretty spot on with how I discipline my horses.

Kudos :]


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## LadyDreamer

"Never punish more than the mistake."


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## iridehorses

LadyDreamer said:


> "Never punish more than the mistake."


That would make a great "signature"

smrobs, very good post and excellent advise.


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## tempest

Thanks. i just wanted to know what everybody thought. I do exactly what smrobs does. I always seem to get stuck with the "problem horses" and I've managed to retrain three of the four. One had a habit of rearing during line-up, the other had major trust and anxiety issues, my current one had trust issues. The one I failed at was the one who taught me how to stay on and ride it out. He was just hopeless in the show ring.


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## kershkova

i have to use a crop on my horse i i do not find it abuse. because i have to hit him with it to get him to jog and behave.but he is a baby so he does not know how to listen whell yet.


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## Jessabel

I would say a good whack when they do something really naughty is discipline. Along with using spurs, crops, and whips properly. _Beating_ a horse is abuse. As in hitting them over and over, or hard enough to leave a mark and/or draw blood. Just look at Cleve Wells. Ripping a horse's sides up with your spurs is definitely abuse.
I think anyone charged with horse abuse should get their horses taken away for good and be locked up for a good long time. *cough*CleveWells*cough*


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## trashcore

I think this could be a very touchy subject. Younger kids or not very experienced kids are less likely to understand disciplining a horse. My Standardbred Gelding is (obviously) a lot bigger than me, and he sometimes tries to show me he's the boss (haha). He will nip on occasions (if in a bad mood), he will shove me when walking (leading), and he will even kick out sometimes when I do up his rug. All because his last owner let him, and cuddled him after doing so. I will smack my horse of the bottom if he tries to kick, and I will tap his nose lightly if he tries to bite. Far from abuse. 
If I were to abuse him, I'd stop feeding him, or beat him viciously without reason!

I don't think some people understand how dangerous horses can be when not diciplined.


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## Trissacar

O I'm touching this one with a ten foot pole. :-O


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## speedy da fish

depends how you hit the horse. i think that wearing spurs and using a whip when you need to is fine but ive seen over use of the whip and horse being injured by people being careless with spurs


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## Siestasgirl16

There is not line between training/correcting and abuse. Pulling back on the reins to make you horse stand is making a correction, using draw reins without your regular reins causing your horse to bleed on the sides of its mouth is abuse. Giving your horse a little smack on the neck for biting at you is training, taking a whip to your horse because he bit you is abuse. There is a time and place for correcting your horse and there is ALWAYS a humane way of correcting and training your horse!


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## Deej

Jerk on the reins?? I totally hate it when I see people jerking on the reins. I can almost feel the pain in the horses mouth when that bit comes down hard on the bars of its mouth. Why would anyone do that??? If I 'm trying to make a restless horse stand still I just juggle the reins a little, say stand, and repeat the command no matter how long it takes and the horse will eventually stand still. NO JERKING!!!


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## Deej

Ps... well said Siestasgirl16


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## ChingazMyBoy

I never "hit" my horse with the whip unless he has done something extremly naughty and that he hasn't yet. If I ever need to punish Chinga while riding he gets spun in a circle.


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## masatisan

Personally, I hate whips/crops But when I took lessons I was forced to carry one, eventually I learned three things:
1, A horse that has been disiplined with a whip will change his behavior according to weather or not a rider carries a whip and he will often react at just seeing it move.
2, A whip serves as an extention of the arm, but it has amplified force.
3, the whip should be implemented as a very last resort after all other methods have failed (leg, voice, seat)

I don't carry a crop on my horse, if he is being very stubborn I simply reach back with my fingers spread and gently tap the sensitive spot just behind the saddle. As I do this I squeeze as hard as I can with my legs. It works every time.

As for horses who play with the bit and jerk while standing still, I find that most often the horse is simply asking for a looser rein so he can stretch his neak a little and not have to deal with pressure from the bit. If I loosen the rein and the horse starts to wander or some such thing, I'll retake contact, enough that the horse can feel it but not so much that I'm tugging on his mouth.


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## Misfit

Discipline: Being as gentle as possible, but as firm as necessary.

Abuse: The minute you cross that line. 

I have seen people welt their horse. Some situations, I would call it abuse. Others, I feel it may have been justified (VERY dangerous/rude behaviour, there was a progression of the aids, warning, and every chance for the horse to answer the question the 'right' way and make it stop). The horse understood and had a chance, they just said "make me" and the person said "Okay, I will". Discipline was applied, and the rider asked "Do you want to rethink that answer?" the horse says "No. Make me" and the rider said "Okay". And it went on like that until the horse said "I changed my mind, I'll behave" and the rider said "Okay, good boy". 

I think a lot of what qualifies as abuse depends upon the manner/attitude of which the action is applied, as opposed to the action itself.


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## xxJustJumpItxx

So I am trying to retrain an OTQH. He can be very pushy at times. When he used to bolt ahead of me, I pulled him in a circle and made him stay even with me. I did this as many times as needed for him to get the idea. He's now a very good horse to lead. He's patient and doesn't charge ahead.

I have hit him once. It was hot. I was tired. He was being a jerk to another horse. I smacked him with the lead rope. Not hard enough to leave a mark, but hard enough for him to come to me and stand there with his head near the ground.

He doesn't like my friend's boyfriend. At all. When Danny gets close to Monster, he does this thing where he pins his ears and tries to nip him sneakily. It's acutally pretty cute, because he's never nipped. He'll open his mouth sideways and sneak towards Danny. I will say "Mooonnster!" in that mom voice and he ****** his ears like "What Mom? I'm being a good boy!" Normally a harsh tone will get him to stop being dumb and then I pet him and talk to him sweetly. He's a good horse  I love my man.

Abuse to me is constantly hitting. I think my friend has crossed my imagined line a few times. I just tell her to back off and let me handle it. I don't really like hitting. I know horses do it in the wild, but I try not to. If needed I will, but I will not be a bully to my horse and I will not tolerate anyone else being a bully to my horse or the horses I ride. (PS. Great post Misfit! Exactly what I think when it comes to DANGEROUS behavior.)


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## Beloved Killer

I see discipline as showing the horse the difference between right and wrong consistently without using punishment that will really hurt the horse. For example, pinching the horse on the shoulder should remind the horse of when their mother nipped them when they were being naughty. I don't see why people can't use that as a reasonable, even natural means of discipline.


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## .Delete.

To each is own. I punish accordingly. I use aids accordingly like whips and crops and such. If my horse bites im gunna give him a good whack. If my horse kicks, he will regret it. If my horse rears he will learn. It all depends on how you do things. I personally think its stupid to argue over this. Obvously there is a certain line that if its crossed it is abuse. It just depends on where you draw that line. I have no problem useing a crop if im working a stubborn pony who refuses to move. Or if im spur training a horse. It all depends on your point of view. And really, this thread will just run in circles. Eventually everyone will agree to disagree so why bother.


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## AlmagroN

well i think there are no real clear cut lines that say this IS abuse and this ISNT, becuase everyone handles their horses their own way. BUT i will say there are some things are are clearly abuse. 

my uncle owned a racehorse, i cant remember his name. he claimed the horse (meaning the horse raced with basically a pricetag on him and anyone could buy him out of the race if they wanted, you have no say to tell them they cant have the horse).... anyway the horse had been racing good so he claimed him, couldnt do any good with him. the guy who he claimed the horse from said "look ill tell you how you get that horse to race good" my uncle says "ok"... the guy says "you have to put him in crossties and put a running hood on him, take a rake and an extention cord. strip the end of the cord and connect it to the head of the rake and plug it in. and keep shocking him till he climbs the walls and p*sses imself" :shock: really? who could do such a thing to a horse for a little $$????? my uncle of course said "i would just as well amish the horse for half of what i paid for him before i would do that". well this guy claimed the horse back from him the next week, sure enough the horse goes and wins, and wins and wins, now how do you think he did that? .... but ya know what, its not worth it.....


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## sillysally

To me it depends on when you strike the horse (if it's longer than three seconds, etc) and how you strike the horse.

My first job was working as a guide at a public trail riding barn. We got a horse in from a trader that had problems, rearing being the big one. My manager took him on the trail to try him out. We couldn't even get him out on the trail without me hand leading him out there. As soon as he got out there i tried to let go of him, but every time I did he would rear. the manager clearly had no idea how to handle this situation and was royally ****ed that what ever she tried was not working.

When we got back to the barn (minutes after the last time he reared), she took him to his stall and proceeded to beat the living crap out of him for a couple of minutes. She felt she was completely justified because he had been rearing, but there is no way that was not abuse in my mind. That was 10 years ago and i can still hear her striking him and yelling at him and still hear him trying to escape her.....


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## anna13

Gentle as possible, firm as necessary - Rick Lamb


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## starhorsepax

Sometimes a horse acts up when he has inconsistent handling. Like a rental or a lesson horse, never knows what he can get away with. I save serious whacking for when they are trying to seriously hurt me! Then keep a crop handy and a carrot too. Reward is important too. Consistency helps a lot. And try and figure out if there is a problem. I knew one horse who went fine until someone decided he needed a harsher bit. I ended up riding virtually reinless. So I knew someone was jerking on his mouth. Horses are better at talking then we are at listening.


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## RubaiyateBandit

Discipline, I'd say, is something that is intended to correct behavior, but does not cause the horse to be injured. Just sorta something that gets their attention and maybe causes a slight startle.

Abuse would be anything that physically injures the horse.... cutting it, whipping it repeatedly for no reason, with holding necessities without good reason...

I think self-defense needs it's own category: if a 1000+lb horse is coming at you, you're likely to need to make a quick judgment call, and I'm sure it won't be a gentle tap on the nose or whatever. Especially for small children or someone inexperienced with horses.
I can think of one example that probably would've counted as abuse from what you all have been saying. A horse that my uncle had once, a big 16+hh stud, was known to get vicious in the pasture around mares in heat. He'd never hurt anyone, yet, but we all knew it was a possibility. I'd taken to carrying a walking stick with me when ever I had to go in his pasture (which I rarely did... he was alone in a pasture.). On one particular day, I was in his pasture (I've forgotten why) and he rushed at me several times, biting adn kicking at me, until I finally swung around with that walking stick and cracked him across the chest, maybe once or twice. He paused long enough for me to slip through to the opposite side of the fence. My unle told me later that I had, apparently, broken skin. (That horse has since been put down, after taking a chunk out of my uncle's arm.)
That may've been considered abuse by some of you, but I felt that my life was in danger, and that was the best option I had at hand.


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## roro

^^^I wouldn't consider that abuse. He was trying to kick your skull in and you gave him a scrape. I would have done the same thing. It wasn't like you purposely went in there to injure him, you just wanted to, well, live lol


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## RubaiyateBandit

I meant that it could be considered abuse by some people in that it was (presumably) an avoidable situation. People could say that if he were a dangerous horse, I shouldn't of been in the pasture with him, or someone should've taught him better. In other words, it becomes abuse because if the horse knew better or I'd stayed away, then I wouldn't have had to hit him. 
I've had people tell me that I was wrong for hitting him, before, is all.


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## smrobs

I agree, it is not wrong to hit a horse who is charging you. If he never recieved proper training, that isn't your fault (unless you were training him). And I don't know about any one else, but I refuse to avoid a certain area just because a certain horse is there and he is a little aggressive. I would probably go through his paddock on purpose as often as possible because he may not like me, but he WILL respect me and my space.


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## AlmagroN

smrobs said:


> I agree, it is not wrong to hit a horse who is charging you. If he never recieved proper training, that isn't your fault (unless you were training him). And I don't know about any one else, but I refuse to avoid a certain area just because a certain horse is there and he is a little aggressive. I would probably go through his paddock on purpose as often as possible because he may not like me, but he WILL respect me and my space.


absolutely. thinking about this more though, i can name an instance of discipline that ruined a horse.

South Jersey Devil, oh did he end up living up to his name. Anyway there was a girl that worked for my uncle. this horse used to play around and nip sometimes. well she would never leave him alone, she wanted to play and play with him, but when he nipped she would bop him on the nose. well one day Jersey had enough, his nipping turned into BITING, his biting turned to LUNGING over the door, and that turned into ATTACKING people. 
one day after that all started, a guy went into change his water bucket (AFTER my uncle instructed him to not do anything with that horse) and Jersey got his arm. tore it up pretty good. then after that, one day, he got my uncles arm. he REALLY tore that up and ****ed off my uncle so he gelded him. well that didnt make him stop. one day later my sister was raking the isleway in the barn. my sister is large, 200+, and Jersey was small, only about 900lbs. Jersey came over the door and got her by the shoulder. he tried to pull her over the stall door and wouldnt let go. my cousin ran in when he heard her screaming and grabbed the metal pitchfork, he thought he had her by the head. he started beating on that horse. had my sister not stopped him, he probably would have killed him, he was that upset.


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## smrobs

Yep, it is amazing how inappropriate or nonexistant discipline can ruin a horse but proper discipline can make them respect you.


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## dee

I've always considered discipline to be constructive in it's intent, while abuse is DEstructive in it's intent. IE a serious smack on the nose when a horse tries to bite is an attempt to teach the horse not to repeat that behavior. (A light tap on the nose for that same behavior could be considered "play" by the horse and actually encourage the undesirable behavior!) Abuse would be beating the horse out of anger and revenge for the bite...


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