# Lilith - My First Horse EVER (Kill Pin Rescue)



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I just wanted to say to you, THANK YOU for taking a kill pen horse!

The snotty nose, I'd be concerned about strangles.


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

I had reached out to several people about the snotty nose comment, and a lot of them told me that it was common for kill pin horses.
My transporter/QT lady taking care of her for the next month told me that it was also common, and that if it didn't go away in several days she'd call out to her veterinarian. 
I really am hoping it is nothing, because everyone seems so calm about it, so I am trying to woosah myself into believing everything is okay, ha-ha.

No her color is definitely interesting! The ad had her as grey, but you can see she is more brown.
I was told that as she ages her coat will start to turn grey and then white. So that will be cool to see if it happens!


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## NavigatorsMom (Jan 9, 2012)

Aw, she has such a cute face! She probably will grey out over time. Good luck with her, it sounds like you've got a pretty good network of people to turn to for advice.  Smart of you to keep a journal too, you'll have fun looking back in a year and seeing how far she's come.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

She's cute...
Sadly horses coming through the kill pens have a history often unknown so we don't know why they are the way they are.
She's a stout horse and not a baby so I bet she has been broke to ride and maybe just not rode or handled often, kindly or recently.
Her brand means she was intentionally bred and marked she came from someplace, a farm or ranch specific.
Her brand can be traced if you take the time and make the effort you can uncover some of her history.
The kill pen knows who/where she comes from as she had to have certain paperwork given to be put through the auction...you may never know or be shared that information though sadly.

Yes, horses with the snots are very common coming through places like auction kill pen situations.
It could clear in a few days or it could fester and need vet help and antibiotics given...snots are very contagious so* do not *touch another horse but yours when you go see her, hence she is in quarantine.
_{Make sure you shower and change clothes before touching any animals at home, some illnesses are transferable between species}_
I would ask those who are caring for her if she has a temperature and to take it daily for the next week and act accordingly if she needs help....a temperature on a animal is just like a human, it shows illness occurring.
_She is beautiful._
She has not sure they call it roaning or varnish but she will change shades of color each season and each year of her life...
Enjoy her, as she works with your trainer and then with you together your bond will grow and she will learn you are fair, mean no harm and she will come to trust you...takes time to establish that sometimes after they come through a traumatic thing like auctions can be...not knowing anything, anyone and nothing is familiar is scary for animals just as it is for humans.
_Congratulations on your new horse...and the years together you will have. :smile:_
:runninghorse2:...


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Oh, I missed you talking about treats. Different horses like different things, but I've never met a horse that didn't like the brand of cookies I use: Mrs Pastures. Go and give her lots of treats and as much love as she'll tolerate!

(Of course, it will be lots of fun to try lots of different treats on her to see which ones she really likes)

If it were me, I'd try to move pretty quickly from just giving a lot of treats to giving the treats contingent on her doing something I want. For instance, she doesn't like her head being touched. Not at all uncommon, but obviously not good. I'd bring some cookies and, starting really slow, give her a treat each time she lets you do something. You might start by touching her neck, and working your hand up until where she starts to look a little uncomfortable. Give her a treat and pause. Try again, repeat. See if you can get your hand up a little higher, repeat. Etc. Since she is a rescue and you don't know about her history, keep a good eye on her the whole time to make sure she's not getting really worked up and thus ready to defend herself from a perceived intrusion.

Some horses can get lots of treats for no clear reason and not show any negative consequences, but it will make some horses pushy and even nippy.


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## Captain Evil (Apr 18, 2012)

Okay~ First, congratulations! She is lovely, and wonderful that you have rescued her. I bet she will lighten up as the years go by... cool, because your horse may be a slightly different color every year. 

Second, Yea for having a trainer work with you; that will help get you through a bunch of thorny patches. Just remember that she is your horse, and you are ultimately responsible for her happiness, health and well-being, so don't be intimidated or agree to something that you are uncomfortable with or don't understand. But if I could do one thing differently with my first horse, Djinn, I would have hired a trainer to help. We did okay but we would have done much mucvh better with some good advice, so again, yea!

And third, LILITH is one of my all-time favorite names! I can't wait to read more about you both: good luck!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi & welcome to HF,

I first want to say, great name, as she is your 'first woman' and will hopefully be treated as your respected partner! And good looking horse. Her colour & her short tail make me think she could be younger than 4yo. She will grey out as she gets older.

Do you know why she ended up in the 'kill pen' sale? Just curious, why do you call her a rescue, if she were advertised & I presume you bought her? Just that over here, 'kill pen horses' are generally those that have been already bought by knackeries because no one else wanted them at the sales - so if she were advertised for sale, she is a horse bought from a sale, not a horse 'rescued' from the knackers.

Why is the horse not eating, and why did the woman give her bute for that? That last pic you showed, I presume because you noticed the dip between her lumbar spine & pelvis? Poss just her age/lack of development, but regardless of whether there are obvious things like this, I'd personally have a bodyworker, such as a chiropractic vet out to check out any new horse. 

Of course, if she is totally untrained to be handled, that needs to be done first. At her age, I'd concentrate on getting her trained to be handled, not yet ridden. Once she's good to be checked out/treated by a vet, bodyworker, have her teeth & feet attended, then you can think about training to be ridden. And as she is your first horse, are you experienced with training? If not, you will want to have some lessons too.

Enjoy! And enjoy the forum too! Remember, the only silly questions are those you should have asked but didn't!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

LilithK said:


> No her color is definitely interesting! The ad had her as grey, but you can see she is more brown.


Yeah, I'd call her dapple grey, because she will be. This colour, also Perch breed known for it, will often start out black or really dark, getting lighter as they age. 

Here is my little dapple grey boy - apparently he was jet black until he was around 4yo, then the first pic is when he was around 7yo, then the last, with my daughter beside him in the paddock was when he was around 14yo, totally 'whited out'.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah treats... had to look up 'fig newtons' but... why would you waste those on a horse??! :lol: If she has never been given things like this before, even carrots may not be well received. Esp if she's stuck in a dry pen with only hay, a handful of fresh grass may be far more appreciated.

She also doesn't look thin in the least, looks quite well covered. But she's at a ... gangly stage of development. Perches often don't fill out until at least 6yo or more.


> Some horses can get lots of treats for no clear reason and not show any negative consequences, but it will make some horses pushy and even nippy.


Not disagreeing with this comment, but clarifying.... If you are not particular about the behaviour you're getting when you give treats(or whatever reward/reinforcement), then you may be inadvertently reinforcing 'rude' or 'nippy' behaviour. Remember, horses learn by association to do what works & quit doing what doesn't work, so ensure you never, ever reward 'rude' or unwanted behaviour.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Congrats on your new pony Woo Hoo!!! She is a beauty and I love the name as well. 

I would be willing to put money on it that she is younger than four. When you get her home ask the vet to try to age her by her teeth. Now would be a good time for that as they change so quickly at this young age.

She looks gray to me. It looks like she was born a bay. All gray horses are born a color and then change over time.

Good luck with your new baby, and yes, let people help you because there will probably be some rough spots as you get to know each other. I can feel your excitement, I would be excited too.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Horse often LOVE watermelon, too, even the rinds.


I'd call her a 'rose gray' now, but as said, she will lighten up with each year.


She might be a PMU foal. somehow brought down from Canada. I really couldn't say.


She is well built and looks like a powerful horse. You are in for an exciting journey~! Don't do this alone. Get good help, make good horsey friends, and hang out here.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

She now owns a horse, is a newbie, with a green horse. She has some big and exciting challenges ahead. What is done is done, and we don't know the whole story....


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

Just an update on my journal (mainly as a record for me to be able to use and go back for info)
\
Photo provided of snot 7/23 









*Saturday 7/25*
My husband and I made our way out to a training facility I plan on using with Lilith. I wanted to meet the owners, get a feel for them, ask all my questions, etc.

Facility is a work in progress; building from ground up (pretty good since they've only had it for 7ish months)
Male trainer is a farrier and has been working horses all his life
Female trainer very knowledgeable about western style training

*Both have worked with many green horses
*Works with a Mustang rescue and helps train fresh off the trailer mustangs

Husband with one of the mustangs: 









Went over how they trained. 30 working days; ie. working days being the days they work on your horse
Welcomed me to visit anytime during training and requested I do come multiple times
Walked facility and grounds

Overall good feel for them. They were able to answer all questions and gave me professional references
*Professional references checked out (including Vet) 

*Sunday 7/26*
Husband and I drove down to visit Lilith for the first time

Arrived with lady in quarantine pen with Lilith, rope around neck 
- Allowed touching of everything EXCEPT face [extremely face shy]
- Strangles confirmed (recovering well)
- Not afraid of rope at all {could put rope to face without issue, but move hand and she was shy}
- Not trusting of treats (would eat in her grain bucket)
a. HATES fig newtons, loved her carrot
- Showed to be interested in people, just did not trust them
- Alert

Brought a new halter for her to wear. Old halter is tight on her, and the woman would work on getting it off.
Open face wound from halter rubbing on nose (flys everywhere)
- Going to work on removing old halter this week

Right eye had boogers

Eating better and regularly now. Drinking well. 



















Snot Nose 7/26


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

*Six Months Progress*

Lilith was moved over to her new facility for boarding and training on Thursday, August 20, 2020. I was there with her all day on the 21st, and spent more of the time reading Harry Potter and allowing her to get use to my voice. I went and visited her every day, and then after a month every other day back and forth reading Harry Potter and slowly earning her trust. She's extremely food motivated, and only truly seems to love carrots - so carrots she got (AND she got a lot of carrots). My drive to Lilith was an hour each way.















I picked up Equinety XL for her as a supplement at the second or third week of her stay at the facility she was in. I would purchase this supplement again. I honestly believe it helped her stress level, made her calmer, focused, and overall changed her body composition. She gained muscle, changed her entire coat, and kept her feet healthy. 

Overall the first month was me sitting/standing outside her stall reading Harry Potter to her. We got to the point where she'd come over and just listen to me talk. Carrots were a big help in allowing me to get closer to her. I was eventually able to touch her neck, and then it slowly moved down to the side. She never really allowed me to touch her face (and you'll know why when we hit the month of October). It seemed though Lilith wasn't very accepting of anyone, but me, and even the female trainer and farm hand on hand had a bit of trouble gaining her trust. 






















I eventually told my family I bought a horse (like several months later) and they came out to visit her. By this point you could walk up to her and she didn't freak out. My dad was able to give her a carrot right off the bat, and she allowed him to get rather close to her than any other guy had been able to before. My stepmom was a little cautious of her, and because of that Lilith was cautious of her. By September though I was able to walk her in/out of the barn without issue, and we were able to start walking around the front of the property. Cars driving by, dogs barking, lawnmowers, etc did not bother her. It was the most bizarre thing to experience. She'd get spook more by a rock laying on the ground, or a twig half way up. Things that should spook her, didn't and the things she shouldn't even care about scared the heck out of her. I got a jolly ball and tied it in the middle of her stall to get her use to her butt being touched. She was less than thrilled with that. 

*October 17, 2020*

I scheduled a vet appointment and the dentist the same morning. I figured if I was going to stress her out and make her angry - might as well do them all together. The vet came first, and gave her two shots. She was not very happy about the shots and reared up a lot. We also learned that the smell of alcohol (rubbing alcohol) really set her off. Like made her into one nasty demon horse. She got the shots on the same side as well. She would not allow Susan to give her the shot on her right side, and did not appreciate the pinching. She also bent the needle on the first shot.

When the dentist arrived she was very professional, sweet, and really took the time to earn Lilith's trust. She spent about 45 minutes working her hands on her face, and was eventually able to get her sedated with the dorm gel in her mouth. She gave Lilith time to get drunk happy, and worked on two other horses before coming back to her (a 20 year old mustang, and a 7 year old quarter horse). The mustang had the best teeth, followed by the quarter horse, and poor Lilith had such horrible teeth that the dentist will actually be out for her in April after six months to finish up the float. 















Lilith was listed as a four year old Percheron/QH Cross and after the dentist came we knew she was roughly 5.5 years old (DNA test results also came back and there is no QH in her.) We learned the reason she didn't like her face being touched is because she was in extreme pain, and this was also the reason why she always spilled food when eating. She had never had her teeth floated before. Her jaw was locked in the back, and she was unable to open it completely when eating. Her teeth were jagged on top and bottom and were piercing into her gums. It was a horror show in there, but we were happy we did it when we did. After Lilith had her teeth floated she became a completely different horse. She did a complete 180.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Yay that is AWESOME! Please keep posting updates!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

So glad to see the update! 

Out of curiosity where did you send dna off to and what were the results?

As they don't give percentages looking at the markers I wouldn't say no QH depending on the results. There are QH lines with draft and many QH have significant amounts of TB.


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

I came back out about a week after her teeth were floated and this was the first time she came to me and nuzzled her head at me. This was the first time I felt like we were truly bonding, and she was basically saying, "Hey, thanks for making me feel better. You aren't as bad as I originally thought."

A few weeks later we were able to get a bareback pad cinched to her without issue. We then were able to add a saddle pad, and a western saddle cinched. She still had no issue. I began to desensitize her or as I dub "terrorize time" with me being a bit sporadic approaching her and doing things not many people would probably do to a horse.

Lilith eventually got accustomed to terror time, and eventually stopped flinching or tensing her body.

Some of the things I would do to desensitize her:
Clap my hands together or make extreme weird noises
Jumping jacks
Running straight at her or from the size
High kicks next to her
Squatting down and jumping up
Flags and tarps






















It's now November and I am asking about when we think we might be attempting to get on her. We are able to cinch her with a saddle without issue. She's now grown accustomed to people of either sex coming up to her and petting her head (without issue), and I'm pretty sure she was tired of me walking her around the front of the facility. So the trainers agreed that they'd bring out a friend (who apparently really wanted to ride Lilith, but I'm still unsure as to why the trainers I was paying didn't want to do it..) and the friend came out. They were able to get Lilith all tacked up, and they quickly learned that the minute you raised your knee to get into the stirrup - Lilith bolted it. They were at it for what I understand 2 or 3 hours and got no progress.

After that incident it didn't seem like the trainers were going to attempt it for awhile. So, as the owner, I figured it was my duty to get her prepared for someone getting on the saddle. We all agreed if someone got into the saddle and just stayed on her for the time she "freaked out" and realized that she wasn't dying that she'd be fine. She would accept that nothing bad was happening to her, and she'd move on (but no one seemed to want to just jump on her and hold on, except me but my husband was highly against it).

So I worked on getting Lilith ready to have someone on her throughout the month of November and December. I laid 60 pound pellet bags on her (4 to adjust as close to my weight as possible), worked with the stirrups touching her or making sounds (throwing them up and whacking the saddle), worked on being above her on the setup block. Just overall a lot of different things to get her comfortable for when the times come for someone to get up on her.
















Here are some photos of me and the terror sessions:


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

QtrBel said:


> So glad to see the update!
> 
> Out of curiosity where did you send dna off to and what were the results?
> 
> As they don't give percentages looking at the markers I wouldn't say no QH depending on the results. There are QH lines with draft and many QH have significant amounts of TB.


I did her DNA testing via Texas A&M. They offer the Genotyping and Breed Testing. 

I'm going to attach her results down below. I did call into the office after receiving the results, and go ahold of someone who was able to look further into their records, and determine that the best identification for her would be an Irish Sport Horse due to the Draft and Welsh Pony mix. I assume they had results that they couldn't send over that would be closer markers, but that's what she suggested I would identify her as. The Veterinarian who came out and gave her the vaccinations (who actually had experience with Irish Sport Horses thought she was one before she had even asked me, and had already marked her down as one on the paperwork. Apparently Irish Sport horses are expensive (with training) and I don't really care about her money value. I just love my horse).


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

2021 Update;

The goal before the New Year was to have someone up on her, and that did not happen due to the weather on Texas. That was their ultimate 90 training day goal, and that has now come and gone.

Last Wednesday, at around 6:30am, I sent a pre-payment for the rest of her training days (75 days). So my horse is supposed to have 180 training days under her and be as close to as 'boom proof' trail horse as you can have (but I've had my suspicious that's not going to happen after the month of October when I kept feeling like I was the one desensitizing her to all of the things that her trainers should be doing). Later that morning I was being told they had narrowed down the locations to where they planned on moving (for a new facility) and that they were taking votes. Now I knew they were moving locations, and so far every location was doable or okay with us. That night the people of this facility went out and purchased a very expensive paper broodmare from an auction.

My husband and I go to visit our horses on Saturday (January 9th) and are told from another boarder (former farmhand) that they had chosen a location and were moving horses this upcoming week. Something we were never told! (This isn't the first time they don't relay information like that. They've changed the lock numbers numerous times and have forgotten to tell us). I reach out Saturday evening and ask when they are moving the horses and to which location. They decided they weren't going to go with a pre-built facility, or lease out a facility - they were going to go to move to a rent-free family farm (that's on the husbands side) and build everything from scratch. There is no barn on the property, no round pen, no arena, nothing. Not to mention this new "place" is a two hour drive one way, and that is something we aren't down to do.

I requested my pre-payment back for the training days that will no longer being happening, and was put on read. I told them I was very appreciative of everything they had done, which I still am, but they are young and this was a dumb business move to make on their end. However, this is part of growing up and being a business owner, and I am both familiar and know all to well. She responded back and said they were planning on dropping the price in board for the additional cost in driving, but the board price was never the issue. I responded back saying just that, and I even said that if they pre-payment for training days could not be refunded in one payment that I would be willing to take payments on it (something my husband was not happy about me saying). She left me on read.

I did not hear back on Sunday, but I was sent photos of my horse in the snow on Facebook messenger. 

On Monday morning, after my husband had time to think and sleep on the idea of going down to this new location he was highly against it. I reached out on Monday, and told her that we would not be making the move with them down to this farm, and I against requested a refund. She left me on read, and never responded. I had my husband reach out to them on Tuesday, and request for his horses vaccination and coggins test and documentations (we purchased this horse, Billy, from them for my husband). They did not have the documents. After my husband reached out to them I received a text message with the female trainer and her new husband (oh yea they got married during this whole 6 month deal) saying that "_We have been thinking and I think a sit down conversation needs to be had about Lilith and training. Billy will be done this month and y'all can transport him to a new facility_." I responded back asking when. Left on read. I then sent another message saying that we could be over there tonight or anytime during the week. I mentioned that I knew they did lessons on the weekends, and wouldn't want to take away that time from them. She responded with "_Let's just do it Saturday_". I responded with an "_Okay! I just want you two to know that I appreciate everything you two have done, but Lilith will not be going to Rice and that won't be changing_". Because it won't be. There isn't anything they could say or do that would make me stay with them at this point. We aren't down with the two hour drive one way, and it's just not happening. 

My husband believes they are going to try to pull some clause out of the contract I signed, but they have no real standing on it. The contract was only good for the first 30 days of training, and even their contract stats that if they extend or renew training they would make a new contract for me to sign (which never happened). Anyways, this whole thing has put me on edge and left a sour taste in my mouth. Friday we are going to view a new facility (which is also cheaper), and if we agree that this is a good place, we will have the people come Saturday and pick up the horses. The stable manger has gone above and beyond with all my questions so far, and I've been very transparent about what is happening at my current facility and she doesn't blame me for wanting to get the horses out of there, before they are moved to a private residence. She also said that she would have no problem getting Billy his coggins test on the way back to their facility, and having their vet come out and giving him his vaccinations in the next couple of weeks. I have also found a new trainer for Lilith, who unfortunately, should have probably been her trainer from the get-go and I wouldn't have wasted so much time and money at this other place. However, that is life and you learn and move on from it. 

So I'm hoping for a smooth transaction of moving our horses and just wiping our hands of the place she was at, and moving forward this year.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Honestly with respect to training it seems like you're doing all the work anyways. It sounds like you've done a really good job so far, too. Hopefully this new place will be better.

Also she looks much better!


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

This is from their website and explains pretty well why you are seeing what you see. As a 4 year old, sold as a Percheron/QH cross with her looks and color (bay going grey) that is not out of the question. With their explanation and those results a believable cross since it also isnt out of the question to see Welsh as a third in a full QH. They have to report three breeds and with any full you'll see the other two and go ???. But horses are all so closely related and they are only giving you probabilities of most likely ancestry. Not close up crosses.

In two or three years she will bulk up and fill out and you"ll see another inch or two in height and what she was sold to you as will make sense.

"We then report the three breeds with the highest probability that the subject horse could have come from the breed in order of their probability of being an ancestral breed. The results cannot give the proportion (percent) of the breed that the subject horse may have. That really isn’t possible because horses are so genetically similar. The test is reasonably good but there is no way to determine how accurate it is. If a purebred horse is tested it will almost always be assigned to the correct breed. When a two breed cross is examined, the two parental breeds will almost certainly be given very high probabilities although not necessarily the 1st and 2nd assignments. The more breeds involved in a cross the lower the probability that a good result will be delivered.  *Also, understand that even though three breeds are reported that does not mean the subject horse has all three in its ancestry.* *Another point is that breeds within a group of related breeds will be given similar probabilities. Thus, the subject horse may be half Belgian draft and half Suffolk but the test results may show Percheron or even a pony breed.* *That is because these draft breeds are very similar at the level we can test and the true pony breeds are closely related to the heavy draft breeds."*

Looking forward to reading more of your journey and pictures of your girl.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

Well I just finished the journal! Lillith is soo cute!  You have done such a great job with her! I love all the pictures, and you seem to be just the person Lillith needed! She is so lucky someone like you came in to her life in a time of need! Keep doing what you're doing!


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

sorry about the trainer/s it sounds like you didn't get what you paid for. I think i live relatively nearby if you got the horse from cleburne and your profile says fort worth. My lesson teacher has had a few started for her by local trainers if your new trainer doesn't work out. She sent off a very anxious kill pen horse she purchased and in 45 days got back a ridable (for her) green broke horse and is finishing his training herself. 

I hope your new place works out. 

Also based off of your horse's face i can really see the belgium, so i don't find the DNA surprising.


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

Lilith was transported off the former trainers property on Saturday, and has been thriving so far at her new location! It's a completely different atmosphere at this new location. I didn't know I felt like I was suffocating until showing up at this new place. They've been in the business for decades, and have experienced/dealt with almost everything.

I was a little timid at first on Saturday because to my knowledge Lilith had only ever been on a trailer three times (going to kill lot, getting picked up from kill lot, being delivered to the trainers property). Low and behold my diamond in the ruff horse just WENT IN the trailer without any issues, AND she had a man lead her in. LIKE WHAT?! That was a truly proud moment for me.

My husbands horse, a seven year old buckskin that we purchased from these trainer people, was supposed to be the easiest loader. We were told he had no issues or vices being loaded up into a trailer. Thirty minutes later we got him in. That was embarrassing to me. So after that incident I began to suspect everything they had ever told us about this horse was a lie. It didn't help they also couldn't provide his medical documentation like Coggins and Vaccination records for this new facility so he was going to have to be isolated.






















​We came back to the facility around 3pm after they were given time to settle in. This gave us a chance to drive to Elkhart, TX and visit the Elkhart Horse Auction facility where I had won a saddle the Saturday before. When we got back to the facility they had moved Billy around, and was taking our word that he was up to date on his vaccinations and coggins test (and they would have the Vet come out Thursday and still take care of him all the same). Billy was now placed next to Lilith because he was throwing a FIT in his isolation stall, and apparently once they put him next to Lilith he calmed tf down. I already knew this horse had no manners, but geez. It's just sad to know that I can't believe anything they told me about that horse, and it's just upsetting.

We took the babies from their stall, and gave them a chance to stretch their legs and get an idea of their new surroundings. This places is on a couple hundred acres of land, and has a beautiful indoor arena, outdoor arena, trails with creeks, etc. It was fun to watch them both get a feel for their new home, and to be honest, I think this was the first time Lilith had ever been out in the "woods" per say with actual trees with swinging limbs, crinkled up grass, wildlife, and even fresh grass. She was loving it all. We went back on Sunday, and did our walk around with the property, and even though Sunday was this facilities day off from working (except for feeding and watering the horses), the manager of the facility still came out to say hello and allowed us access to her trailer for training. (Oh, I don't think I mentioned it, but everyone lives on property at this facility; owners, manager, horse trainer, farm hands, etc).















Anyways this is Lilith checking out her new digs. Her stall is definitely a lot larger than her previous one AND this one comes with a window, ha-ha. She seems very at ease with the transition, and I'm glad to see that she's not anxious at all. We're going to go today to visit them, and since they are a lot closer I'm going to try to get back into our every other day routine instead of every weekend like we've had to do since the Winter times.

As for the previous trainers they have no made any effort in my refund request, until today after I mentioned legal action in Small Claims court. They've offered to do payment plans on half of the training amount, and refund half of it back - but that just isn't going to cut it for me. Before we left I took a photo of the training board and it showed Lilith was at 92 days of training. That's 92 DAYS of GROUNDWORK training. I'm beyond frustrating, and am looking forward to putting this behind me in the near future.

Thank you to all who have been following our journey on here.


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## AbbySmith (Nov 15, 2020)

Yay! I'm so glad you found this new place! It sound amazing, and Lillith looks sooo relaxed!


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I've also learned to discount pretty much anything a seller says. Sad but true. I'm glad you eventually got them both moved OK. Lilith is really a gem.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Sorry you are having so much trouble getting your money back.
Lilith is really pretty, and perhaps she has more training than they said at the kill pen auction. the new facility looks really nice.

Just wanted to mention one thing; an Irish Sport Horse is not just a mix of any draft and a non-draft. It's a mix of an Irish Draught (draft) and a thoroughbred or some thoroughbred-like horse (can be a warmblood, or a trakenher, or Selle Francais )


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Yea, she is lovely.


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

tinyliny said:


> Lilith is really pretty, and perhaps she has more training than they said at the kill pen auction.


Her ad said that she was originally halter broke, and just needed a refresher. She had zero training. Completely green. 

When she arrived at this training place you could not get near her. She wanted nothing to do with anyone. Not halter broke at all. She's come along way thanks to a lot of time and patience on my end. The former trainers told me I had been making their job easier because I was an owner who'd come out almost every other day and work their horse.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Good to hear the horses are in a much better place! I've never heard of paying for 90 days of groundwork before.


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

gottatrot said:


> Good to hear the horses are in a much better place! I've never heard of paying for 90 days of groundwork before.


It was originally 180 days of training, and only got to 92 days total. No one has ever heard of 90 days of groundwork. It's not a thing, and I was just getting toyed around by those people it seems 😅


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

She left for training on the 22nd with James Stewart out in Bowie, Texas. She has made some good strides with the training, but non-rideable strides. Seems like all my groundwork training with her has started to pay off. She was afraid of James at first, but after several days she has apparently warmed up slightly to him. She'll allow him to touch her and whatnot, but that's about it. He said he could build up to the level of trust she has with me, but that's easily $8k - $10k I'm looking at - and I personally don't think it's worth it. 

I've signed her up for a female trainer in June that I had my husbands horse at before we sold him. I know she will work from the ground up with her, and if anyone is going to contemplate getting on this horse it's going to be this trainer (if it's not me by this point). I'm just still blown away that you can tack up this horse, put 200 pounds of weight on her IN a saddle, but yet no one will do hobbles to make her not bolt the minute you put your foot in that stirrup. We all believe that once she has someone on her, and she sees that she's not dying - she's gonna be a-okay. Just still working on finding the person who is willing to give her a shot up in the saddle.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I wouldn't put hobbles on and get on a horse, that could end up badly. Plus the horse is going to feel trapped and overwhelmed. Instead, I'd work a lot on having her allow a foot in the stirrup, and someone leaning over her back while another person leads, and someone just laying over her, stepping up and down over and over. Tons of that kind of desensitization. I agree that if she learns she can tolerate someone on her it will help, but that might mean she does run forward a bunch of times, so it should involve having the person sliding off quickly and trying this over and over.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

LilithK said:


> no one will do hobbles to make her not bolt the minute you put your foot in that stirrup.


Agree with @gottatrot - mounting a hobbled horse in the best of situations is not a good idea; especially with one who has issues with people on her back. It is very dangerous for horse and the purported rider. Reputable trainers will NOT get on a hobbled horse - with good reason.


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## ferricyanide (Jan 14, 2020)

I also agree with gottatrot. 

8k-10k also sounds unreasonable to get a ridable horse and i live near you. Did you actually pick up a fire breathing dragon?

Im also surprised that you can get a saddle on her but not a trainer. The one i ride now, surprised me with our first ride at home. He stood like a little angel for me to get on, then he exploded when i went to pick up the reins. We got it sorted but i spent a lot of time just sitting there playing with the reins. For some reason moving the reins while stopped made him him really nervous but riding around was fine. 

I'd spend a lot of time just putting a foot in a stirrup. Shaking the stirrups. Putting some weight in the saddle like a feed sack or whatever you can reasonably secure. And hand walking her like that. Play with the reins while saddled but dismounted. Maybe hand walk a few steps while a foot is in the saddle. Lean in saddle with more hand walking. And work up to sitting in the saddle with handwalking. Obviously not if you think she will react. I would say trainers are cheaper than medical bills but it doesn't sound like you have had much luck with trainers. I feel like confident trainers on the low end around here are 800-1000 a month and it goes up from there. 

There is a guy that travels up from houston that comes this way sometimes that comes to you and charges by the session/hr. He seems to follow methods similar to warwick and others. Spends a lot of time reading body language and working on relaxation.


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

I worded my post wrong, and I'm sorry guys in advance for that. When I meant using hobbles, I didn't want someone to get up on her when she's wearing them. I've seen some techniques of using hobbles for a horse who bolts, and I just wanted her to get use to not being able to move if a foot touches the stirrup. Everyone's advice has been sound, and it's everything I have been doing with her.

The furthest I got before she went off to training was being able to have my knee on her back and my toes touch her sides. However, I learned she was okay with my leg on top of her, but when my toe of my boot touched her ribs that was a no go and she cow kicked. After working on her with that, she stopped cow kicking and actually allowed for me to put weight on my knee and have my boots touch her side without issue. She's just a weird horse. Things that should spook a horse don't, and the things that shouldn't spook a horse do. I've been getting boned by trainers, and so this last trainer in June she's going to will be the last one and if it doesn't work out then I'm going to buckle down and do it myself.

I will say though from where she started to where she is now it's a real eye opener. It's only been 8 months and I've taken a basic green, non-halter broke horse and turned her into a cow. ha-ha. I guess I just wanted to rant slightly, but also get some ideas on what I could do to help with the stirrup issue. I'm going to be working on the stirrup issue and her feet until June when she leaves again. I'm really hoping we'll have a better outcome and I can update with something exciting!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

LilithK said:


> I'm just still blown away that you can tack up this horse, put 200 pounds of weight on her IN a saddle, but yet no one will do hobbles to make her not bolt the minute you put your foot in that stirrup. We all believe that once she has someone on her, and she sees that she's not dying - she's gonna be a-okay.


Um... not sure I understand - you are wanting to find someone that will hobble her, in order to get on without the horse being able to take off in terror?? That sounds like a VEEERRRYYY bad idea, to do anything of the sort! Hopefully I've totally misunderstood, but IF you really see fit to force her into something she is terrified of & prevent her escaping(which I wouldn't advise in a pink fit, unless it were emergency vet care & there were absolutely no alternative), would IME be safer for both horse & rider, to lie her down - throw her & tie her down with ropes.

Rather than that, I'd be taking the time it takes, in 'baby steps' to get her _confident & comfortable_ with being mounted. If she's so traumatised that it will be too long/hard, or too dangerous to get on her without her being tied down, unable to move, then I wouldn't be thinking about riding her.

Why do you 'all' believe that as soon as you get someone on her, esp if you're doing it by force, that she will suddenly just be OK after that? That doesn't make sense to me either.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

LilithK said:


> I just wanted her to get use to not being able to move if a foot touches the stirrup.


Not a lot of difference really, in her eyes. You're 'training' her, by force, to give up any hope of self preservation - be 'shut down', unable to escape to defend herself from something terrifying. So, best case scenario with this treatment IMO, she may just become 'shut down' generally, a robot - which, at times when she doesn't feel so hopeless, will leave her still prone to explosions. But it could well also just make her 'blow up' in other ways.



> It's only been 8 months and I've taken a basic green, non-halter broke horse and turned her into a cow.


Oh, I figured that it was so difficult because she'd been previously handled terribly, not just that she was untrained. So if she hasn't had terrible ridden experiences to get over, if you have been able to do what you have with her, what exactly is the problem, that trainers haven't made any headway & it's been so long? Is it just that you only have ornary trainers in your parts, or...?


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

@loosie It is believed she is a failed bronc horse and that is the issue with mounting her 

I promise to everyone in this thread I'm going to go about this in the most safe way possible for her, and to make mounting an enjoyable experience for her.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Oh💩! That makes sense then, why no one wants to ride her! You're a glutton for punishment then, if you're keen to do so! Each to their own, but personally, I'd... Sit this one out😄

I still would not be considering hobbling her to ride, but I'd be inclined to work on changing her associations with clicker training principles... If someone held my family hostage to force me to try to ride a bronc!


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

Lilith came back from the trainer and of course had a bit of attitude with me the first day, but she quickly went back to her old self which I think its a very good sign! It didn't take her long to transition back to her home, and I'm taking that as a win.

Since she's been back I've been pushing her a bit more. I've started to re-apply my body weight to her and she's taking it! She hasn't tried to buck, bite or kick 😂 She's doing fantastic!

I had a farrier come out and view her on Wednesday, and we've scheduled a date to have her to come out and give Lilith her FIRST farrier experience (she's 6) on Saturday thr 8th. She did very well for the farrier, and even allowed her to touch her legs and even pick them up slightly. Working on her legs has really paid off. I feel like a proud mom.


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## TheMarcher (Dec 7, 2020)

Lilith is absolutely gorgeous! I love her roman nose so much ❤

Just found this thread and read through it. I look forward to seeing you two come together as a riding pair! Seem to have a nice bond. Cheering you two on!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think you are doing magnificently! Perhaps start ground driving her. Start with just a circingle or , use her saddle with long lines through the stirrups eventtually, put weight in the saddle and ground drive her. Just an idea.

You can jerryrig a circinge with a couple of girths, or buy one. Lunge lines make good long line reins


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

Yesterday was a MASSIVE day for us and the bond I have formed with this horse. We had been able to tack her before, but the minute you put your foot in the stirrup she'd bolt.










After we got her tacked up (took about 40 minutes) every time my husband got close to her to help me with the cinch she'd react and buck. Eventually though I was able to do it on my own and she settled down quickly. 

I then when around her and messed with thr saddle. I threw the stirrups up and let them come down, banged them against the saddle, etc. Tried my foot in the stirrup the first time and she didn't bolt, but she moved her body away quickly. No buck or kick but it was a no go.

Then I retried it again after about 5 minutes of messing messing her AND SHE LET ME ADD WEIGHT TO THE STIRRUP AND HOLD THE HORN. OH MY GOD.

If my husband wasn't there I would have attempted to get fully on her, but after she accepted the weight and stood there like an angel I called it a day for training. 

Then I released her into a pasture she'd never been in and she was off and running faster than I had ever seen her do before. She loves to throw up her tail like an Arabian.


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## TheMarcher (Dec 7, 2020)

_Ah!_ Congratulations! It is too cool to see how far you two have come since the beginning of this journal.


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## LilithK (Jul 20, 2020)

This past Saturday I had a farrier come out to trim Lilith's feet for the first time in her life. She's SIX YEARS OLD! 

Anyways the farrier I had hired came out about a week and a half earlier to actually meet Lilith and get an idea with what she was going to be working with. I told her the whole background of Lilith and was ready to give it her best shot. When she came out Saturday it was definitely an interesting show. I had purchased Dormosedan Gel from my Vet for Lilith when it was needed with experiences like this, and overall I think giving her a small sedative was the best way to go about it. Now she didn't get the full tube. She got about 1/6 of the full tube, but that was enough to make her calm down and accept that her feet were going to be worked with. I'm very thankful I had practiced taking her in and out of the stocks before this. She was a perfect angel, but hated each and everyone of us after she was given the drug. She was side eyeing us all and wishing us death.










After about 45 minutes we moved her out of the stocks and tied her up next to her old stall. It was to give her a place of familiarity and a sense of calm? I'm not sure, but we did it anyways. It worked out pretty well because for the hour this took she did very well. She didn't like having her front feet done, and hated the stand for her feet, so our lovely farrier did it by hand with her hoof between her legs. Like the dedication and patience this woman had was a god send, and she was actually enjoying it. She said Lilith was being a piece of cake, and she's had worse horses than her.










Lilith learned after her left front hoof was done that if she leaned back on her back left when the farrier was working on her right that she'd "trip" and "fall" and the farrier would have to let go so she could catch herself. She was being a butt on purpose and played this little game for about 15 minutes before she got bored of it, and allowed the farrier to finish up. She has such sass. Now came the hind legs. We had a bet going on about her hind legs and how she'd react. The farrier said she'd probably kick and we might not get to them. I said the opposite and said she'd be a perfect angel. So the farrier got to work on getting her hind legs geared up with rope to see how she'd respond to it.


















Y'ALL SHE WAS AN ANGEL. NOT ONE KICK. SHE PICKED UP HER HIND LEGS WITHOUT ISSUE. SHE EVEN ALLOWED THE STAND. 
LIKE WHAT THE HECK IS WRONG WITH THIS HORSE. JUST OH MY GAWD.

By the time the farrier finished up with her third foot Lilith was no longer sedated and was fully awake. However, she allowed the farrier to continue working and did not cause one issue. I take it as she appreciated what the lady was doing and knew that she was trying to help, but also I like to think all of this was a little bit because of all the work I had put into her and she knew she was in good hands. Ha-ha.

Anyways here is her before and after of her hooves. Six years in the making. She use to break them off evenly on her own, but after stall boarding her they started to grow.


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