# Just a Trail Horse - Discussion.



## AtokaGhosthorse

I know there was, years ago, a thread about people who look down on trail horses, but it's probably going on two or three years ago it was used. 

What made me want to start this one is a couple/three weeks ago, I was camped out vending tack at a friend's rodeo for three days. A local woman who is a trainer and horse trader, but known for her old school cowboy methods, decided to hang out at 'camp' with me for a while. I have mixed emotions about her - I want to like her, and yet something about her starts to genuinely tick me off, but that's a different story.

Anyway. She had brought a nice looking palomino gelding out just to have around the rodeo and for the kids that help me to ride him around to get some rust off him.

While drinking our beers and kicking around horse talk, she gestured to him where he was tied at her trailer.

"He ain't nothing fancy, ain't worth much. He's just a trail horse some trail riders sold me."

Now, she's dealing with a different caliber of horse, usually. She's usually dealing with rodeo athletes, not trail horses, I get that. And yes, there's a whole other level of skill and ability to the horses she usually trades in.

But the way she said it grated on me. 

I've seen barrel horses that couldn't mentally cope with the terrain we ride, with the closeness of the woods, the narrow trails, the shadows and imaginary boogers. Lord have mercy if hogs ran out in front of some of these 'athletes'. I've known people who had perfectly good, excellent roping horses... that would blow in two in an open field or would nut out at a creek they didn't want to cross.

I've known a lot of these athletes that their rider couldn't trust them as far as they could throw them.

I held my peace, but I for one wouldn't take for my 'nothing fancy broke about them' horses. Personally, I think there's something very fancy about hopping over a fallen tree, recovering from a trip into a rabbit hole, trotting through a creek, or kicking it into 4wd and going off roading. I think there's something incredibly fancy about dropping down a 20ft tall creek bank at a steep angle, and riding it out flawlessly and imagining, for just a second, you were on Jim's Ride (Man from Snowy River). I think there's something terribly fancy about a horse that stops on the trail and watches a sounder of wild hogs tear across our path - and doesn't lose his or her mind but stays motionless and rock solid (Trigger), or wants you to let her run them down (Gina).

I think there's something terribly fancy about a Welsh/Quarter horse cross pony that at the age of 3, is willing to go anywhere you point her one day, and drag a downed cow up into the stock trailer the next on the first try.

I think there's something very special about a good trail horse and the trust you develop in one another. And - they are, in my opinion and in their own right, true athletes.

They must have endurance, agility, nerves of steel, be willing and eager to go, and have a strong sense of self-preservation so they don't get you in trouble, so you don't get THEM in trouble, and you have to trust one another, rely on one another, and be kind to one another.

I'll take Trigger, Gina, or Oops, and in his day, Superman, over some of that chick's 'fancy broke' horses any day. 



PS - I'm not besmirching horses in other disciplines at ALL. There's a horse and a discipline for almost anyone. It just gets old to hear people dismiss a fine ******* equitation horse.


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## tinyliny

I'd take that trail horse you describe, in a heartbeat. Trail riding is all I do now, and mostly on very sedate, gentrified trails, so your horse is "somethin' special' from my perspective.


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## egrogan

Almost every ride I come back from, I have a mental list compiled of all the brave things my horse did that ride. At this point, the list includes handling: mud, snow, ice, rocks, streams; turkeys flying up in her face; deer bolting across the trail; mountain bikes zooming down a steep hill behind her; off-leash dogs losing their heads barking at her; loose calves in the road; baby strollers with crying kids; horses riding towards and away from her out of the woods; threading between two huge hay balers that were basically touching her sides; shooting in the woods; camo-ed hunters sheepishly crawling out from behind a tree with full bow-and-arrow and apologizing for being where they shouldn't have been...

Those are just the things that came to mind quickly, she's faced more I'm sure.

I don't know yet if she'll be fast enough to be an endurance horse, but in the 1.5 years I've had her I do know for sure that she's a pretty awesome trailhorse and I appreciate her for it!


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## Woodhaven

A horse that is "just a trail horse " is a wonderful animal indeed. Much sought after in some areas and often hard to find.

Our horses over the years had to be multitalented, we would show but also expected these horses to go out on trails and do a good job there as well. Perhaps they weren't top competing horses but good at many levels which made them nice horses to have around.


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## Kalraii

I had an instructor tell me that my horse (irish draught x something we dont know) is wasted on me. She should be out there jumping and hunting and living the life. Not stuck with _me_. They asked me twice why I didn't "just" get a cob. As if that was any better. I love cobs and would have been more than happy with one but I just worked with what was on offer and that was compatible for me. They asked if I was planning on selling mine - I'd only had her for just over a year at that point :< Obviously never got them back -.- But that was definitely the most hurtful comment I got since owning Katie and I still remember it from time to time.

Fortunately she doesn't give a hoot what her job is only that she has one. We're getting there with the trails


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Kalraii said:


> I had an instructor tell me that my horse (irish draught x something we dont know) is wasted on me. She should be out there jumping and hunting and living the life. Not stuck with _me_. They asked me twice why I didn't "just" get a cob. As if that was any better. I love cobs and would have been more than happy with one but I just worked with what was on offer and that was compatible for me. They asked if I was planning on selling mine - I'd only had her for just over a year at that point :< Obviously never got them back -.- But that was definitely the most hurtful comment I got since owning Katie and I still remember it from time to time.
> 
> Fortunately she doesn't give a hoot what her job is only that she has one. We're getting there with the trails



Yeah, a few people have muttered that Gina is 'wasted' on us. She could have been taken in any direction - roper, barrel racer, pick up horse, you name it... but we take on the woods and the creeks with her. Couldn't ask for a better 4wd horse - she can climb anything and her descent is one where she tucks her butt way down low and does this weird slide on the back in, feet moving slowly on the front end. She'll 'sniff' her way through really rough, rocky footing in the mountains too.


We kinda laugh and shrug now and tell them: Eh. She hates cows but isn't the least bit cowy or rodeoy. She's doing what she does best as a badass trail horse.


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## mmshiro

Well, you already know my opinion. "Nothing fancy" is not a disparaging remark on the quality of the horse, but on its earnings potential in the current show disciplines. It's like a motorcycle racer calling someones trusty trail bike "nothing fancy (just a dirt bike)". Yes, you won't win the Grand Prix on that dirt bike (and money for nothing and your chicks for free), but one hardly encompasses the functionality of the other in order to warrant a "superior" label. 

My five dollar bottle of beer is hardly "fancy" compared to your $100 bottle of champaign. That is a true statement, but it also doesn't mean that I drink lousy beer. And if burgers are served for food, guess who'll have more enjoyment out of their meal? 

You don't want a fancy horse, you want the best horse for the activity at hand. Nobody wins a marathon wearing a fancy tuxedo. It's a meaningless term.


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## CopperLove

There aren't as many rodeo type events here but I have slowly started to sense this divide. I've even spoken the phrase myself, "I_ just_ want to trail ride." As if that makes my goals somehow less than another rider's. Often I say this simply to fend off the assumption that, because we've found out that Dreama is gaited, I would suddenly change my goals and want to go to the local fun-shows.

I don't. I don't want that for us as a team. I love to watch horses and riders at those shows but it's not something I'm interested in doing myself. Someone at my knitting group even asked if I was going to "jump my horse." Even though the comments are often well-meaning, there is a general lack of understanding about what one is supposed to do with a horse if not to show.

I've turned out to be EXTREMELY lucky in our situation. The more the family I board with work with Dreama, the more we try to piece together her story. My instructors think she once may have been someone's show horse (at what level, we don't know, and will never know as we have no contact with anyone who owned her prior to the pound). The husband has done a variety of work in different horse disciplines over the years and says she steps like a horse that might have once had pads or heavy shoes on her front feet to enhance her natural gait more. Again, we'll never know for sure. But she's flashy, fast and showy.

But on the other hand, she has yet to spook or refuse out on the trail. The back of this family's property is STEEP. Up into and down out of the woods. I've been riding their horses as they've worked with her, so I've had the opportunity to see her confidence out on the trail. She's careful of her feet. I've watched her trip and then right herself with a rider. On our most recent ride, down the road and into the woods on a more gentle trail, she didn't shy at things that the other horses did: birds flying out from under a bridge, new feeder in a field, dogs barking, a tractor driving by (too fast) etc. Never paused at the shallow water crossings. Her focus is to "go", doesn't matter what the obstacle is along the way but she seems to have a good sense of where to put her feet too. Now that she has figured out saddling-up means we're going out to see new things and do something interesting, she is perfectly and happily willing to do so.

If someone did show with her, it really seems to me like they also trail-rode with her. She knows a lot of things, it's just a matter of learning what she knows. But so far it seems like she's the kind of horse who would take you anywhere, if you can hold on for the ride.

The mustang and quarter horse I started taking riding lessons on with my instructors have been a blessing. They're trained in a western style; they neck rein, the quarter horse goes in a bosal instead of a bit... very "point-and-go" type of ride, very little contact with the mouth required. Very easy, accustomed to being ridden by small children. They have patiently carried me through everything and helped me gain the confidence to keep going (I'm sure they think of me as the biggest, clumsiest child they've ever known). Neither would win any awards but they are so level-headed and easy on the trail, I would gladly have either of them.

I made the comment just the other day on another post that that's one of the things that makes me appreciate this forum so much... there is such a wide variety of riders, people who show, who trail ride, or do both, and for the most part seem to respect each other's disciplines and just want to see healthy, happy horses.

It's a shame that so much of the horse-world seems divided into various camps. I feel very blessed to have found the help that I have locally, who understand my goals but I also think would truly support me if I wanted to get into some other discipline as well.


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## horselovinguy

I will take and keep my "trail-horse" any day over most of my previously owned horses.
My horse is safe, wise and takes care of me, my family or any friend I may put astride...
_I trust him with my life..._
Would I have trusted my show-horses with my life, not on a bet in a show-ring or anyplace else, period.
You can not put a value on a animal that is entrusted with your life to carry you safely here or their and does it joyfully.

People who put down "just a trail-horse" are showing how foolish, closed-minded and naive they are...
Every horse has a special niche where they can excel...and where there value is...find it and you might find a value in that horseflesh skies the limit!!
:runninghorse2:...


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## elkdog

I've been through about 100 horses to get to the 5 I have now. They're the absolute best of the best at what they do....just trail horses. And not too bad with cows.


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## PoptartShop

I can't stand people that have that mentality. :icon_rolleyes: 'Just a trail horse'...there's a really good quote somewhere, I have to find it.

My OTTB is pretty bold, so she's definitely turning into a great trail horse. Still needs some work, but when we go on trails she acts like she's done it a million times. I think trail horses are pretty smart. They are bold, can go through many obstacles, water, etc. without a second thought. Not sure why people tend to belittle them so much. 

Me personally? I get bored SO easily in an arena, & so does my horse. I NEED to go on trails or ride in a darn pasture. :lol:


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## Avna

Anyone who's ever 'made' a trail horse knows that as much goes into it as any other discipline. Maybe not as much money and chemicals, but just as much training and your horse has to have the physical and emotional aptitude as well. 

Example of training ... I was at a TREC clinic (trail-obstacle competition thing) last year and we were introduced to the gate obstacle. Some of the horses could not be gotten within yards of the thing, much less go through it. Not because they were crazy show horses, but because negotiating a gate from horseback requires a lot of patient training. Brooke and I managed gates on a daily basis in California, and these were not dainty little obstacle-gates but heavy road gates fastened with chains set below your stirrup height and on steep roads with dangerous drop-offs. Not easy gates. 

So this one was a piece of cake. Because Brooke is a trail horse and has skills.


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## TeeZee

Good genuine trail horses are hard to find and rather expensive in these parts. People know their worth. I have always loved this meme. It might not be aimed at a trail horse, but any good using horse deserves to be recognized.


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## COWCHICK77

I am probably one of those people who'd say "he's just a trail horse". But I think the term 'trail horse' got thrown on a lot of horses who didn't excel as say, a cutter, rope horse, barrel horse, etc. 
It doesn't mean the horse is worthless by no means. And honestly, if the horse fits your needs and excels at what you ask of him, who gives a sh!t?

Stilts, as much as I love him and as many miles and country he has seen cowboying on him should be awesome outside but he is a horrible trail horse. 
He really excels as an arena horse or working " inside", sorting, loading cow trucks, branding calves. 
When it's a day of inside work, he's my first pick I can do all those things probably with nothing more than a piece of baling twine around his neck. On the outside days, I'll catch someone else to ride. I see the value of a horse who is "just a trail horse".

With that said, there are some horses who haven't been given the opportunity or time to become good outside. I don't think people realize it needs work just like anything else you train a horse to do but I do think there are some horses better suited for it than others.


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## QueenofFrance08

I sure do love my "just trail horses"


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## bsms

Bandit was used for informal relay races - 10+ mile legs. He grew up in very open country. He had been forced (whipped) past things and he found the washes and trails of southern Arizona overwhelming. Although NOT as evil as THIS is:










SCARY!​
It has taken 4 years to get him to where we are at now. He's pretty comfortable in the desert with another horse behind him. He is still working on going solo. But on a solo ride today, we picked our way between some cactus where I have no idea how he slipped thru without getting poked by spines. I think we're getting close to the breakthrough point where he stops thinking about the horses he left behind in the corral. He's learned to talk to me about things that worry him and that, if he'll trust me, I'll keep him safe. We went from spinning and running away and bucking to a horse I no longer wear a helmet with. He's my teammate now.

That took a lot of riding into scary situations and THEN proving I could help him. It has taken time to convince him I'll never whip him past anything. He knows his smell and hearing beats mine, but that I'm very good at handling something I see - so he points things out to me.

It works both ways. Now when he tells me, "I've got it!", I stop worrying. If he says he'll go between the cactus, he'll also get ME between them. Having a teammate on the trail is a wonderful thing, but not all horses are born to it and it certainly is nothing to sneeze at.

It has taken us work. My 7 years with Mia left ME with some deep fears. He's had to teach me even as I've been teaching him. A horse who thinks "WE" is a wonderful thing. Although a horse may think a rider who thinks "WE" is also a wonderful thing. I remember being told I couldn't take Mia out on a trail until I had "body control". In reality, I needed to take her out because she would never learn to trust me on a trail until I proved myself to her on a trail. Same with Bandit. We needed to ride into scary places before we could trust each other in scary places. And that involves work.

I know people put a lot of work into their competition horses. And I know some horses were born to be good trail horses. But some of us have worked to teach our horses to be good trail horses - and are proud of the horses we now have.


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## Lolapalooza

Wow, I really agree everything everyone is saying here!

I bought my girl mainly for trails, and I have been working really hard to get her to where I want her to be. She can be ridden on the road to get to the trails with giant garbage trucks passing by, and she's stood still as a giant flock of wild turkeys has flown up into her face. One of my proudest moments was when I was just learning the trails at my barn, and we stumbled upon a playground. First of all, she had NEVER seen a playground, and I expected her to spook at the brightly-coloured slides/climbers...but she had no reaction. Not even a second look. On top of that, the playground was very busy...as soon as we were spotted, a group of children came charging at us screaming...and still she just stood calmly. She even let them come up to her and pet her. We ride through neighbourhoods, football fields, and parks. She's even helped me find my way home when I've gotten lost, because she always remembers the way! 

Whenever someone asks what I "do" with her, I say we trail ride. It seems like people are always disappointed by that answer. But there are so many girls I board with who have competitive, "fancy-broke" horses who can't be taken on the trails as they are too high-strung. My mare might not be A-circuit material, but hell if she doesn't keep me safe doing what I love to do. Being completely trail safe takes a lot of work and training, which people who don't often trail ride don't seem to realize!:cowboy:


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## Avna

Lolapalooza said:


> <snip>... But there are so many girls I board with who have competitive, "fancy-broke" horses who can't be taken on the trails as they are too high-strung. </snip>


Some of those horses would be fine trail horses if given a chance to be. It's their riders who are frightened to go on trails, often as not.

I have a friend who has 'decompressed' saddle seat show horses into actual usable riding horses. She told me it takes at least a year of mostly just grazing in a pasture (something most of them have never done since they were weaned) before their brains start working normally, and many hours of walking on a loose rein before they realize they can relax under saddle. But most of them come around very well.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Avna said:


> Some of those horses would be fine trail horses if given a chance to be. It's their riders who are frightened to go on trails, often as not.
> 
> I have a friend who has 'decompressed' saddle seat show horses into actual usable riding horses. She told me it takes at least a year of mostly just grazing in a pasture (something most of them have never done since they were weaned) before their brains start working normally, and many hours of walking on a loose rein before they realize they can relax under saddle. But most of them come around very well.


My trail riding barrel racing friend knows some barrel horses like this. Said they're never allowed to be horses. They're let out of a trail for 15 minutes, make their run, load back up, and head down the road to the next barrel race, rinse repeat. (15 minutes is an exaggeration btw)

They never get to just... chill.

Then you get the riders that tell said friend they'd never risk taking their horse out on trails... because they don't want the horse to get hurt (and various other excuses).

(Again, this isn't me talking bad about another discipline/event. Just the people who use their horses like a turn-key machine, use it till it's broken, dump it off to the first person who buys it, then get another, and use it till it's used up. Happens in every part of the world. Sadly.)


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## Lolapalooza

Avna said:


> Some of those horses would be fine trail horses if given a chance to be. It's their riders who are frightened to go on trails, often as not.


Oh, couldn't agree more! I should have phrased that differently...it is not that they cannot be trail ridden, but that they have not had the work put into them to make them trail safe! Or, their riders are nervous of the whole ordeal Of course, not everyone wants to trail ride, which is completely fine! Some find their happiness in the ring, and that's just as well and good. With horses, you have to find whatever makes both you and your teammate happy. But there is definitely something to be said about a solid trail mount, and the riders who work with them to get them to that point. Props to all of the trail riders out there!


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## Woodhaven

TodaY Sis and I went out for a ride on our two new horses. We don't know how much trail riding they have done, probably not much and this spring was so bad with mud and then an awful crop of deer/barn/horse flies (probably due to the extreme wet wheather) we didn't get out much.
now the wheat is harvested the fields are open to us so we went out along the edge of a bean field into a wheat field then planned to cut through a narrow pass between a couple of woods to the field behind.
As we approached the deer flies attacked and we went thru this wide 
alley at a good fast trot, These horses have never been there before and there's all kinds of stuff piled up and stored there I was leading on my niece's mare and she was so brave, looking at everything but stepping right along, just because I asked her too. I was proud of her and I think she will do well when we can get out on some of our trails with some rough going.

Hopefully they will also be able to go to some shows as well. The gelding has done one already and was very good, this after we had him for only 3 weeks.

they may not be professionally trained show horses but they are good horses.

And also horses really don't care if they ever reach their potential, means nothing to them, and these high competition horses often are plagued with soundness issues because of the work they do.


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## CopperLove

Avna said:


> I have a friend who has 'decompressed' saddle seat show horses into actual usable riding horses. She told me it takes at least a year of mostly just grazing in a pasture (something most of them have never done since they were weaned) before their brains start working normally, and many hours of walking on a loose rein before they realize they can relax under saddle. But most of them come around very well.


This is particularly interesting to me... At one point, one of my instructors (the husband of the pair) offered a guess that Dreama might be an Arabian x Saddlebred cross (again we'll never actually know but it's fun to guess since it doesn't really matter at this point.) I was curious as to what someone would want that particular cross for, whether it might have been on purpose or whether it was an "oops", so I looked it up and what I found was that people use them for saddle seat shows. I know nothing about what that really means as I've never been to one.

If that or something similar were true though, the fact that she sat for at least a year and a half as a pasture pet, which we thought might have been detrimental to her training, may have actually helped her. I wish she could have been with other horses at the time though instead of just goats. Right now she's being let out with my instructor's horses for periods of time and I think it's been most beneficial for her, to get to be a horse with other horses.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

I haven't read every post on this thread, been a long hot trying day. So I'll just repeat what I've said and posted for years. I LOVE my "fancy broke" show horses to pieces. And I wouldn't give the powder and lead it would take to blow them straight to the devil if they didn't have the mental fortitude and brains and heart and try to handle anything I can toss at them on the trail. I understand that "just a trail horse" may not be able to double into the show arena for any one or more of many different reasons (referring to breed type shows, not open) but if one of my show horses can't double into a trail horse, they don't stay long. 

"Just a trail horse" is probably one of the most athletic, sanest, kindest, smartest horses you can find anywhere. I can't say the same about a lot of the "fancy broke show horses" that never get out of the arena. Talking down about "just a trail horse" shows a serious hole in that trainer's education and experience and tells me a lot about where I'd probably find the holes in her "fancy broke horse's" training.

And if your gut gets riled by this gal, there's probably a good reason, listen to it.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians

Oh and the bit about a show horse being too valuable to risk out on the trail. Nonsense, they aren't valuable enough if they can't handle it. When I was riding a show string and the trainer was based in 
TX, I went down for 3-4 days a week to train and then we went showing on the weekends. I would take the horses for a "trail ride" around the area where the ranch was and then at the shows the first thing we did was to walk, in hand, around the grounds and let them find the Boogeymen. Then we'd progress to riding around the grounds and dealing with the noise, sights, crowds, dogs, yadda yadda yadda. Trainer always threw a wall eyed fit about me riding around outside of the arena. PFFFFFT a crowded indoor is a LOT scarier (to me) than riding around out in the open air.


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## boots

Sensible, sound trail horses are the closest thing I've found to ranch horses. 

We actually rope very few cattle to doctor them. We don't often sort bulls from cows, or cows from calves, so not much cutting action. But we do cover many miles over varied terrain, in all sorts of weather. 

Some days are more stop than go, if you're working on fence, or checking grass varieties. 

I find many show or sport horses like trails, too. I've hired out to take jumpers, 3 and 5 gaited saddle breds, barrel and rope horses, polo horses, and pleasure and equitation horses out on trails. It's really fun to watch their reactions to the many things you run into on trails, or in pastures. And I have a "cold" seat. I can generally get even hot horses walking out calmly pretty quick.


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## lostastirrup

I HAVE a horse that is getting evermore daily fancy broke. He also lives a double life as my trail pony. Trail work is phenomenal for a show horse. I can see two main benefits:
1. Fitness without strain. 
Slow work on hills will save the joints, and build the booty and topline you need for the collected work all without pounding on the joints and hooves. 

2. If they're gonna be sane at a show it's because they've learned to be a sane, thinking creature everywhere else. 

Mine did not start as a safe trail horse he started as a shot out of a gun at the chirp of a gopher, but we did work at it and we kept going out and seeing new and different things til it's something that is both old-hat and enjoyable for both of us. At this point I have a horse that will gamely swim, cross deadfall, climb mountains, go over bridges, and deal with wildlife and the occasional cow, and do it all on a loose rein. I also have a horse who can ride a killer volte and a half pass and a flying change. He's fancy broke and has been at shows and been the calmest creature while performing well. An arena with flowers on the cones has nothing on an angry badger. We've got this.


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## ApuetsoT

Most of the trail horses I know are uneducated or have questionable soundness. That's why they have that job. You can point them in a direction and they won't spook, but good luck getting them to open a gate or pivot or any other useful action beyond stop, go, and go faster. All my "arena" horses can do most things a good trail horse does.

Around here, the good trail horses are usually qualified by riding mountain trails. I would not take my horse to the mountains.


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## Foxhunter

A horse that can deal with all sorts of terrain and enjoy it is, in my opinion, worth its weight in gold. 

Not everyone wants to compete but ride purely for the enjoyment of being with a horse enjoying the scenery. What is wrong with that?


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## trailhorserider

ApuetsoT said:


> Most of the trail horses I know are uneducated or have questionable soundness. That's why they have that job. You can point them in a direction and they won't spook, but good luck getting them to open a gate or pivot or any other useful action beyond stop, go, and go faster. All my "arena" horses can do most things a good trail horse does.
> 
> Around here, the good trail horses are usually qualified by riding mountain trails. I would not take my horse to the mountains. *Out of curiosity, why not? *


There are a lot of educated and sound trail horses out there. That's kind of a weird thing to say. :shrug:

My gelding that I raised from a foal (just a trail horse) went to a clinic and he was the only horse that knew how to move his shoulders and hind quarters independently. He also side passes both directions with ease and does gates, no problem. Stands stock still for mounting from both sides and parks next to any sort of mounting block I choose. He was well on his way to becoming the perfect trail horse until I rehomed him to a more confident rider........who also rides trails.

Now my first few trail horses didn't really do those things because I wasn't up to that level myself. It's hard to ask a horse for something you don't even know yourself. But the more educated the rider, the more educated the horse. Now when I buy a trail horse, getting them to moved off my legs is one of the first things I work on. Most of them probably know it but just haven't been asked lately. So we work on lateral movements, backing, moving front end, moving hind end, etc. I like a horse that moves off my legs just like everyone else. 

One thing that is fun and good practice is every Halloween and Christmas I like to hang decorations on the trees on my favorite trail. Getting in just the right position to hang a Christmas ornament or a ghost give you lots of practice moving the horse's body exactly the way you want it. It also teaches them patience for standing still. That's how I got my current horse moving off my legs well. And just yesterday I took a hand saw and did a little trail maintenance and she was so awesome to get into just the position I asked her so I could saw the limbs and stand there patiently while I did it with the reins just hanging loose on her neck.

There is no reason a trail horse can't be soft in the bridle and move off your legs just as good as any other horse. It just takes a rider who is willing to practice it.

One thing I admit I don't do with my trail horses is work on leads. I am not really educated enough myself to teach them and to be honest, I have never seen the need for it in a trail horse. If we canter, we canter and we've always done fine on whatever lead the horse picks up naturally. So no, my trail horses aren't ready for the show ring. But they are light in the bridle, patient when we stop and move off my legs very well. :Angel:


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## trailhorserider

Foxhunter said:


> A horse that can deal with all sorts of terrain and enjoy it is, in my opinion, worth its weight in gold.
> 
> Not everyone wants to compete but ride purely for the enjoyment of being with a horse enjoying the scenery. What is wrong with that?



That would be me.......I want to enjoy nature with my best friend........my horse. :loveshower:


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## JCnGrace

I remember that thread from before and I'll repeat (maybe not verbatim) what I said then. I can take my "just a trail horse" and do just about anything with it. I might not win in the show arena but it will do it's best at whatever I ask of it and act like it has some sense while doing it. I've been on fancy broke show horses or competition horses (not mine) that only know their discipline. Ask anything else of them and it's like your riding an untrained horse. Not saying that the horse is at fault in those situations.

@ApuestoT, I don't understand unsound trail horses. Trail horses need to be sound to do their job unless your talking about riders that stick to flat, even ground only.


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## ApuetsoT

@trailhorserider

I wouldn't take my horse to the mountains because it wouldn't be safe. He's great to ride out, but ultimately he's a dressage horse, not a tail horse. 

My point about the rest was there are plenty of horses who fit the stereotype. Might be my location. Lots of flat fields and little challenging terrain unless you go looking for it.


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## Avna

ApuetsoT said:


> @trailhorserider
> 
> I wouldn't take my horse to the mountains because it wouldn't be safe. He's great to ride out, but ultimately he's a dressage horse, not a tail horse.
> 
> My point about the rest was there are plenty of horses who fit the stereotype. Might be my location. Lots of flat fields and little challenging terrain unless you go looking for it.


Why wouldn't it be safe? All he has to do is watch where he's putting his feet, and go up and down hills. As long as a horse is sound and calm, they just need experience. All horses have a million years of coping with moving over variable terrain in their DNA. If a horse is sound and sane, all it needs is experience and in some cases muscle tone, to traverse most any trail. 

As I said before, most of "he can't be a trail horse" is in the mind of the rider not the horse.


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## CopperLove

@ApuetsoT I'm not sure if your area might be a situation like ours in general with what a lot of people want to call a trail horse.

Even though we live in a hilly area (we typically like to think of eastern KY as mountains, but in reality I believe we don't have true mountains, I think I've read before that they're actually foothills) where a horse could gain a lot of experience, and lovely state parks and national forest that could be ridden in, you find more and more that there is a lack of people who really take their horses out riding, other than a loop around the same property over and over.

This creates what they want to call "trail horses" but they really haven't traveled or done much. And it isn't the horse's fault, but they really haven't been exposed to enough to have real experience on a variety of trails. You see people selling horses all the time talking about how calm and kid-safe they are, or showing off one particular gait but you have to wonder how they would behave in a new area (I've seen that people tend to over-exaggerate the qualities of a horse they are trying to sell, I've even seen it in my own family.) Or they've indiscriminately bred a horse from parents that had poor qualities to begin with but were "pretty" and as a result created offspring that were unsound, which of course is then really unfit for a rider that might want to go out camping and spend any prolonged amount of time on trails.

I started out trying to learn from my Aunt and quickly found out that she and her fiance do next-to-nothing with their horses. They like having them, that's perfectly fine, but I quickly saw that their goals and mine were different. You can't ride a horse a few times a year and expect it to perform the way a horse does that's ridden multiple times weekly does... or even once a week or once every few weeks. That's true in any kind of riding.

I was just discussing this yesterday as I was taking my partner out to see the "Ranch" for the first time... eventually, when I've gained a lot more experience and feel comfortable riding on my own, and have my own property to keep my horse on, I would like to acquire a second horse, to ride but also to have a companion for my mare. She spent so long without being able to really be turned out with other horses I feel it would be unfair to eventually bring her from where she is now to a pasture alone. BUT it's also a daunting thought, trying to find a horse that would suit our needs in the area. That's still a very far-off thought, but hopefully when that time does come I'll still be connected to my instructors and be able to have one or both of them along for advice.


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## ApuetsoT

Avna said:


> Why wouldn't it be safe? All he has to do is watch where he's putting his feet, and go up and down hills. As long as a horse is sound and calm, they just need experience. All horses have a million years of coping with moving over variable terrain in their DNA. If a horse is sound and sane, all it needs is experience and in some cases muscle tone, to traverse most any trail.
> 
> As I said before, most of "he can't be a trail horse" is in the mind of the rider not the horse.


It's not that he can't handle hills and trails and stuff. I've taken him bushwacking through the forest at previous barns and stuff. I would hack put regularly despite the weather, day or night. I certainly don't ride avoid riding him out under the pretense of "he can't do it, he's a dressage horse". I could probably take him out to the mountains and not die.

I'd still choose my old qh over him to go actual trail riding. My qh was more surefooted, agile, and brave. If he came across wildlife, he wouldn't lose his marbles the same way my warmblood will. I took my wb to move cattle once and I could hardly keep him in the same county. There are cows in the field next to him, and he still can't go near the fenceline. Never mind if he saw a moose, elk, or bear. He wouldn't take off, but he'd be showing off some high school moves.

Doesn't help that my WB is huge. I'd get clotheslined by a branch. And don't ask me to get off, because I'm not getting back on without help! Lol


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## Avna

ApuetsoT said:


> It's not that he can't handle hills and trails and stuff. I've taken him bushwacking through the forest at previous barns and stuff. I would hack put regularly despite the weather, day or night. I certainly don't ride avoid riding him out under the pretense of "he can't do it, he's a dressage horse". I could probably take him out to the mountains and not die.
> 
> I'd still choose my old qh over him to go actual trail riding. My qh was more surefooted, agile, and brave. If he came across wildlife, he wouldn't lose his marbles the same way my warmblood will. I took my wb to move cattle once and I could hardly keep him in the same county. There are cows in the field next to him, and he still can't go near the fenceline. Never mind if he saw a moose, elk, or bear. He wouldn't take off, but he'd be showing off some high school moves.
> 
> Doesn't help that my WB is huge. I'd get clotheslined by a branch. And don't ask me to get off, because I'm not getting back on without help! Lol


Gotcha. I got my horse over being scared of cows by going out with her and moving them. But she's innately bossy. 

"Trail horse temperament" is an interesting subject for me. Some people will imagine a sleepy moseyer that nothing upsets (I once rode out with four ladies on big fat Quarter Horses. They were so incredibly slow I had to quit them. I could have beat them if _I _was on all fours). Then there are those who want/need a horse who loves to get down the trail at a spanking pace. Never the twain shall finish a trail ride together ....


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Avna said:


> Gotcha. I got my horse over being scared of cows by going out with her and moving them. But she's innately bossy.
> 
> "Trail horse temperament" is an interesting subject for me. Some people will imagine a sleepy moseyer that nothing upsets (I once rode out with four ladies on big fat Quarter Horses. They were so incredibly slow I had to quit them. I could have beat them if _I _was on all fours). Then there are those who want/need a horse who loves to get down the trail at a spanking pace. Never the twain shall finish a trail ride together ....



Man. Local trail riders are all Spotted Saddle horse riders. Trigger can keep pace with them, but poor Gina. She's not slow mind you, but she has to trot almost non-stop to keep up. Hubs hates riding with gaited horses on the trail - he felt beat up and wore down by the end of last years Big Trail Ride with them.

When I ride with my friends, they're all on QH's. When the weather is cooler and he's feeling sassy, Trigger and I do a lot of getting way out ahead, his pace is just so brisk. But we turn back return to the group at a trot or lope. It's been good for him to have to turn back, rather than try to make a beeline back to camp. Getting out and riding him on trails and going brush popping has been the best thing I could have done for him and me both.


I've found ONE quarter horse that could keep pace with him on flat ground - Dan. He's the barrel horse another one of my friends rides. He could be mistaken for a TB, he's so leggy and naturally lean, built for speed and covering a lot of ground in a hurry. Dan and his rider kept pace with Trigger and I without ever breaking a sweat. Dan is an awesome horse, with an awesome person.


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## Dustbunny

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I think there's something very special about a good trail horse and the trust you develop in one another. And - they are, in my opinion and in their own right, true athletes.
> 
> They must have endurance, agility, nerves of steel, be willing and eager to go, and have a strong sense of self-preservation so they don't get you in trouble, so you don't get THEM in trouble, and you have to trust one another, rely on one another, and be kind to one another.


Amen!!!!!!!! :cowboy:


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## bsms

ApuetsoT said:


> Most of the trail horses I know are uneducated or have questionable soundness. That's why they have that job. You can point them in a direction and they won't spook, but good luck getting them to open a gate or pivot or any other useful action...


Wow. Questionable soundness? Uneducated? And that is why they are relegated to trails?

A trail horse MUST be educated, just in different things. Something I learned on Mia years ago: If I asked her to sidepass in an arena, she was clueless. If I asked her to scoot sideways because we were stuck somewhere, she'd act like, "Well, I've been WAITING for you to figure it out" - and then scoot sideways.

If I ask Bandit to pivot around his front in an arena (after reading up on the cues), he'd be clueless. In the desert, we do it if needed without my knowing the proper cues. He's a thinking horse. Not an obedient one. That thinking is a result of training. Training to think. Training to assess the situation correctly, which means exposing him to various things and letting him make small mistakes (if needed) - and then build on that foundation. The goal is to teach him to handle himself. To give him confidence and trust and allow HIM to figure out HOW to move. Yesterday, threading between cactus, I really didn't think he could get through without being stabbed. But he did. He went between cactus that I would have been nervous walking between on my two feet, and got us both through fine. He's educated. Just doesn't know a lot of cues. 

And unsoundness? Really? A horse who isn't healthy enough for the arena gets sent to the trails? Because a trail is a good place for a horse with physical problems?

Oh well.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

@*bsms* You said what I was thinking. I wanted to go away and give my response some thought, but you said it all.


My 'trail horses' get gates, pivot, side pass, back, go through all gaits, move off seat and leg pressure, and understand cues from spurs. They neck rein with a life of a finger, and we can ride them with a fully loose rein. Even high-strung Trigger will get a gate. He's learning to be better and better at it as we go. 

Oops is 3 and a trail horse - but she's learning to do pivot/drill team, and working at the sale barn. She needs a proper education and she's getting it.

True ignorance... as in lack of education... can be corrected (Trigger learning to get gates). Willful, stupid, pig-headedness type ignorance? Well? That's a whole other ball game.

They must be physically sound to trail ride, so that really baffled me.

I'm just boggled by that opinion that they're by and large ignorant and unsound. I don't know if we're calling two different things by the same name here, or if it's a regional thing or both. IDK.


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## Avna

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> @*bsms* You said what I was thinking. I wanted to go away and give my response some thought, but you said it all.
> 
> 
> My 'trail horses' get gates, pivot, side pass, back, go through all gaits, move off seat and leg pressure, and understand cues from spurs. They neck rein with a life of a finger, and we can ride them with a fully loose rein. Even high-strung Trigger will get a gate. He's learning to be better and better at it as we go.
> 
> Oops is 3 and a trail horse - but she's learning to do pivot/drill team, and working at the sale barn. She needs a proper education and she's getting it.
> 
> True ignorance... as in lack of education... can be corrected (Trigger learning to get gates). Willful, stupid, pig-headedness type ignorance? Well? That's a whole other ball game.
> 
> They must be physically sound to trail ride, so that really baffled me.
> 
> I'm just boggled by that opinion that they're by and large ignorant and unsound. I don't know if we're calling two different things by the same name here, or if it's a regional thing or both. IDK.


It's two different things. I have seen plenty of the "trail horses" spoken of. They are ridden a few times a year off site, usually at some club camp out where they move slowly in a group along a very well-marked trail. 

I have bailed out a number of riders on these horses. They are usually people who match the horses in unfitness and ignorance. Their tack breaks, they get off to pee and can't get back on, their horse won't go across the little stream or down the little hill, they can't manage the gate, blah blah. 

They are not trail horses and their riders aren't trail riders either, by my definition. But they ARE horses and they ARE on a trail ....


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Avna said:


> It's two different things. I have seen plenty of the "trail horses" spoken of. They are ridden a few times a year off site, usually at some club camp out where they move slowly in a group along a very well-marked trail.
> 
> I have bailed out a number of riders on these horses. They are usually people who match the horses in unfitness and ignorance. Their tack breaks, they get off to pee and can't get back on, their horse won't go across the little stream or down the little hill, they can't manage the gate, blah blah.
> 
> They are not trail horses and their riders aren't trail riders either, by my definition. But they ARE horses and they ARE on a trail ....



Ah. Okay. Not gonna disparage those poor equine souls either - It may not be their fault they are where they are in life.


So we're likely talking about two very different types of trail rides and trail riders.


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## pasomountain

I was told that same thing recently about my KMH--that he's "just a trail horse". I've had him almost exactly one year now and he has been pretty awesome on trails and with obstacles. And he's had all different kinds of riders on him--with different skill levels--or lack thereof. I sent him to a trainer this spring after having the winter off--just for a refresher and to see what all he knows. She said he was a bit stubborn in the arena and he didn't see the need to learn anything new. LOL! But on the trail he was great for her. So she told me he should be fine for what I want--"just a trailhorse". Oh well. He has continued to be good on the trails and he is quite a character around the barn--very affectionate and amusing. So yeah, that IS what I wanted!


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## ApuetsoT

bsms said:


> Wow. Questionable soundness? Uneducated? And that is why they are relegated to trails?


I said the horses *in my area* are largely uneducated or unsound. Around me is flat fields, gridlocked by fences and roads, no challenges, no long treks to go on. We don't have miles of desert or forests to ride in. You need to trailer somewhere to get anywhere. Retired or chronically unsound horses get relegated to trail riding on Saturdays. So yea, we have a lot of trail horses and riders who point and shoot down a fence line and that's trail riding for them. So around here, a horse who's just a trail horse is just that most of the time.

If you read to the end of my post, you'll see that I make a clear distinction between those kinds, and the 'real' trail horses. Those are the ones that are taken to the mountains to ride, because it's somewhere you can actually ride and requires skill.

In my following posts I actually grade the 'real' trail horses above my own horse in terms of reliability.



Avna said:


> It's two different things. I have seen plenty of the "trail horses" spoken of. They are ridden a few times a year off site, usually at some club camp out where they move slowly in a group along a very well-marked trail.
> 
> I have bailed out a number of riders on these horses. They are usually people who match the horses in unfitness and ignorance. Their tack breaks, they get off to pee and can't get back on, their horse won't go across the little stream or down the little hill, they can't manage the gate, blah blah.
> 
> They are not trail horses and their riders aren't trail riders either, by my definition. But they ARE horses and they ARE on a trail ....


Exactly.


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## Foxhunter

ApuetsoT said:


> Most of the trail horses I know are uneducated or have questionable soundness. That's why they have that job. You can point them in a direction and they won't spook, but good luck getting them to open a gate or pivot or any other useful action beyond stop, go, and go faster. All my "arena" horses can do most things a good trail horse does.
> 
> Around here, the good trail horses are usually qualified by riding mountain trails. I would not take my horse to the mountains.


Just because some of the trail horses you know do not understand opening a gate doesn't mean they are only good for going forward - they just haven't been taught. 

All the racehorses I had would open and close gates, no problem. To open a gate and hold it open for others of it is opening towards you requires a horse to pivot so I guess those racehorses might have been able to do barrels!


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## Celeste

If you guys find some of those "just trail horses" that are actual real trail horses and are "not worth much" as in they may be obtained cheaply, please let me know.

Horses that are sound and safe on trails are worth their weight in gold. I could buy those "cheap" horses and make a fortune flipping them. 

My "just trail horses" are not for sale for any amount of money.

They also are both show bred horses. My mare is a straight Egyptian Arabian with championship halter bloodlines. I wanted a horse with correct conformation so that she would stay sound and a horse that was pretty. I wanted a pretty horse to ride. Nothing wrong with that if I can afford her.


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## AndyTheCornbread

Trail riding is a discipline and in my honest opinion it is one of the hardest of disciplines to teach a horse to do well.


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## jaydee

All of our horses and ponies over the many years DH and I have owned them, went out on the roads and trails. Show ponies and horses, jumping, dressage, eventing, mounted games and all breeds including the ‘fancy’ warmbloods went out regularly. 
We have no interest in just riding in an arena. 
The only reason some horses don’t seem to be able to cope with it is because they’re never given enough of a chance to learn.


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## tinyliny

Kalraii said:


> I had an instructor tell me that my horse (irish draught x something we dont know) is wasted on me. She should be out there jumping and hunting and living the life. Not stuck with _me_. They asked me twice why I didn't "just" get a cob. As if that was any better. I love cobs and would have been more than happy with one but I just worked with what was on offer and that was compatible for me. They asked if I was planning on selling mine - I'd only had her for just over a year at that point :< Obviously never got them back -.- But that was definitely the most hurtful comment I got since owning Katie and I still remember it from time to time.
> 
> Fortunately she doesn't give a hoot what her job is only that she has one. We're getting there with the trails





This would really make me angry. Whose business is it , anyway!:?


Sorry, but anyone talked to me like that would be hearing an earful, for sure.


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## charrorider

Anyone who views trail horses as somehow being worth less than other discipline horses, can come and ride the hilly, rocky, narrow trails in the Mark Twain NF in the Ozarks of MO. Lets see what those other horses do when they have to descend a hill with rocks rolling under their feet, or when a deer suddenly jumps up from a bush a few feet ahead, or step over a big fallen log. What are those horses going to do when they are just riding along and suddenly a big limb breaks off a tree and comes crashing down in front of them? Or what about a military jet breaking the sound barrier right overhead? Can those horses even ride solo as all of mine do? Thanks, but I'll keep mine.


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## JCnGrace

charrorider said:


> Anyone who views trail horses as somehow being worth less than other discipline horses, can come and ride the hilly, rocky, narrow trails in the Mark Twain NF in the Ozarks of MO. Lets see what those other horses do when they have to descend a hill with rocks rolling under their feet, or when a deer suddenly jumps up from a bush a few feet ahead, or step over a big fallen log. What are those horses going to do when they are just riding along and suddenly a big limb breaks off a tree and comes crashing down in front of them? Or what about a military jet breaking the sound barrier right overhead? Can those horses even ride solo as all of mine do? Thanks, but I'll keep mine.


My favorite place to ride although it's been a while since we've been able to head out that way. We're standing in the Big Piney River in this picture.


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## Foxhunter

I would get so bored just riding in an arena! 

I don't know why people think that a 'special' horse cannot be ridden out on the trails. Top riders in the U.K. all ride out and about, show horses go Fox Hunting, dressage horses go hacking out and about, event horses also hunt. A few years back a top show jumper hunted one of his top horses to teach it to go better in mud. 

Even racehorses get hacked out. 

As for 'special' horses not being able to cope with tough going, odds are they can do it perfectly well, it is the riders who cannot.


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## charrorider

JCnGrace. Was the photo taken while riding the Paddy Creek Wilderness Area, behind Ft Leonard Wood? That's only about 35 mins from my house. I mostly ride the Cole Creek Trails, since they're across my mailbox.


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## mslady254

As already said a couple of times, a good, reliable trail horse is worth his/her weight in gold, however perhaps that only holds true to trail riders. However, I do think that a lot of folks who are generally horse/horsemanship knowledeable but don't happen to trail ride, would also agree. Details of training and experience have already been covered by previous posts, but I can share a couple of my own experiences where I was very thankful that I'd trained Sonny to do more than go forward down a trail, and to have confidence in my decisions. The first time that I ever found it necessary to ask for a HQ yield on the trail we came to an abrupt dead end of the trail around a blind curve. Thick underbrush was in front of and on 3 sides of us on a narrow trail,,,too narrow to just turn around going 'forward'. A handy-dandy HQ yield got us easily and safely headed back up the trail. Another time, at a trail obstacle competition, Sonny and I were at the head of a group of 6. We had paused to let the folks up ahead finish with the obstacle before we approached that obstacle, maybe 20 feet away. The horse attempting the obstacle, spooked, spun and headed directly at us leaving the rider on the ground, at a good pace (can't remember, think it was a canter). I could feel Sonny's concern and he was asking to 'go!' to get out of the way, but there wasn't any room and we had 5 horses kinda bunched behind us on a downward slope. I felt our best chance at safety was to hold our position and for me to ask the oncoming horse to stop. I had a spare rope (always!) , so I started swinging it and calling 'whoa!" . Of course that meant that it was swinging right in front of Sonny's face. Thankfully the horse respected the rope and my cue to whoa, he/she stopped about a foot and a half from us and seemed releived to do so. I was so proud of Sonny for listening to me instead of his own instincts, and ignoring the rope commotion that he understood was not meant for him. The one and only time that he bolted on the trail (I think he stepped in a hornet's nest), he stopped easily in just a few strides just by me beginning the cue for a one rein stop. 

If you love to rail ride, a 'good' (just????) trail horse is worth his weight in gold.

Fay


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## SilverMaple

A good trail horse is worth his weight in gold, but 'just a trail horse' doesn't have to mean 'knows nothing' as sometimes seems to be the case. There's no reason your trail horse knows nothing more than 'kick to go, pull to stop,' and plow reining. Riding a horse with a good neck rein who will go on a loose rein, knows how to extend and collect, is 'slicker broke', will pack and ride, can be mounted from either side, is hobble broke, rope broke, can pony other horses or be ponied, can be tied anywhere, knows his leads, knows how to sidepass, leg-yield, pivot, back, and move off your leg and is comfortable at a walk, trot, lope, and gallop on his own or with a group and in strange places and with rough ground is a FAR safer and more pleasant animal to ride than one that doesn't know anything.


A little 14hh paint mare and I got on a trail once that we probably shouldn't have been on... a friend misread a map, and what was supposed to be a simple, pleasant mountain ride up to a lake for his young gelding and my green mare ended up on a trail on the side of a gorge that was about 10" wide with a sheer drop on the downhill side and a shale slide besides. We figured since we had already started across and were doing fine, we'd just keep going. Then partway around a curve, we see a pack train coming down from the summit, and pack trains coming down have right of way. My little reining/cutting mare had no problems sitting back on her haunches and executing the prettiest rollback on the side of that mountain you'd ever seen, then proceeding to walk back down the way we came with aplomb. My friend's gelding had to be backed down as he was just too big to turn, but because he was soft and could be controlled step by step, that also wasn't a huge concern.... back, move the hind legs over, back a few more steps, etc. until he was down to a wider area to turn. Both of those horses were rather green with only about 60 days on them, but both had good basics and good minds, and what could have been a mess turned into a nice ride and a good story. I shudder to think what could have happened with a horse that wasn't broke well or didn't have a good mind. 



The MIND is, by far, the most important thing for a trail horse. It doesn't matter how broke he is if he goes to pieces if a branch gets hung up in his tail, or if the saddle shifts onto his neck going down a steep hill and he bucks, or if there's an emergency and you need to ride for help and he won't leave the other horses.


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## Woodhaven

Silvermaple I should write down all your skills for a good trail horse, you have covered many points that in the far past my horses could have done, most but maybe not all on your list but I have gotten lazy the last years and the two new horses do not know most of these. 
Now I have a "to do" list to work on

good story about your two young ones


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## Deodar

Personally one of the most boring ways I can think of to spend a day is watching a horse show, unless it's upper level dressage which, to me, looks almost like magic. That said, I went to a fun exhibition type thing several years ago. This guy had 3 horses, he could sit on one and direct one or the other two by calling them by name. He said that was difficult to teach. Someone in the audience asked what would be the hardest thing to train for and his reply was trail riding. He said trail horses are bombarded by so much stimuli, they have to learn to tolerate so much whereas his horses and most show horses only have to learn to deal with the inside of a ring or arena. I no longer ever think of myself as 'just' a trail rider.


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## bsms

My horses couldn't do all the stuff @SilverMaple suggests, although they get around quite well. Context means a lot. Mia couldn't do a sidepass or rollback in the arena but could do what sure looked like them if the terrain & vegetation and reason meant they were needed.

Consider Trooper, a former sheep herding horse:








How my youngest tended to ride him:

















I think he dislikes me in part because I am a directive rider. By his standards, at least! At this point, he barely knows plow reining any more. But he's the calmest of our horses. He covers rough spots with no complaint. Even when his 875 lb body is hauling a 6'3", 200+ lb guy:








He walks slow - probably from his sheep herding days. Trots fast. Can gallop fast if needed. And...he was named Trooper because "he's just a trooper" - a soldier who does his duty without fuss. Never fallen. Doesn't buck. Waits for his rider when scared. Once, the instructor teaching my daughter set up a game where my daughter was supposed to cue Trooper thru cones. She had to quit. Why? Because Trooper figured out the game, and would slip his feet sideways or do whatever else was needed so they would "win".

Trooper has disliked me for 11 years now and I have a hard time being fond of him. But my daughter is in the military and Trooper wasn't ridden for 7 months. When my wife - who rides a half dozen times a year, tops - rode him last week, it was as if he had been ridden every day for a month. Maybe because my wife sometimes takes him out for walks, and he figures he needs to take care of her?








Hard for me to like Trooper, but I respect him. Some years back I rode him regularly for 6 months and he knew a number of cues then. Doesn't seem to now. But...if you have a new rider, or a very infrequent rider like my wife, and want to go out with Bandit & me...Trooper will get the job done. In a rough spot, hang on and let him do his thing.

Good equitation can be beautiful. I sometimes ride Bandit in the arena to practice (although I still look awful). But there is also a place for a good horse (3/4 Arabian, BTW) who just gets the job done regardless of who is tossed on his back. There are a lot of folks out there who could REALLY use a "Trooper"! A good disposition covers a multitude of sins!

PS: The rancher who sold him to us has been my friend since we were in college together in the 70s. He picked Trooper as the best horse on his ranch for a beginning rider.


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## JCnGrace

@charrorider, I don't know what that particular area is called. It's the 4-J Big Piney Trail Ride and the old campgrounds was leased from the Fort. They lease their new campgrounds from a private individual and instead of driving through Ft. Leonard Wood you drive through Duke, MO. It's not very far from there. We still used the same trails from both camps. 

Here's the link to their location which will probably pinpoint it for you.

Location | 4jhorsecamp.com

I have to say I'm envious that you live in the area and can hit all those great trails out your back door.


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## redbadger

My mom once wisely said: "It doesn't matter if you have a smart dog if you have a good dog." And I think a similar concept fits to horses: they don't need to be fancy, they just need to be able to do their job. Maybe their job is barrel racing or jumping or Olympic dressage, or maybe it's working on the trails. I tell people about one of the trail horses, Nugget (interestingly, OP, also a palomino gelding), that he's a work horse. He's not necessarily fast, and he (like all other horses) is always tempted to eat (90% of the world is a salad, after all), but he has a job and he does that job. Go from A to B, back to A, eat, drink water, go out and do it again. He's utterly unbothered by pretty much everything, he's smooth, and he's smart enough not to let some rando fall off if they're wobbling all over him, which makes him absolutely perfect for a wide variety of customers. There's plenty he can do, if asked (like trot, canter, maneuver), but if not asked, he's perfectly content to walk A-B-A-eat-water-A-B-A all day. You probably wouldn't want him for a show horse, but he's just about worth his weight in gold when you need a good honest ride. 



Toby and I have been practicing being the lead a few times now, on the trail (just with my instructor so far, no other people), and it's been a huge confidence boost and I learn so much from leading with him. We take on rocks and mud and empty stream beds (and full streams), uphill, downhill, under trees, through fields. He learns to listen to me better. The other day, we were helping a lady and her husband fill her bucket list, and I maneuvered Toby, took out my phone, and snapped some photos of the husband on horseback (so there would be some without me or my instructor in them), and put my phone in my pocket. That's something that "just" a trail horse can do - something he and I can do together from having to brush past trees and swing a fly whisk and hold the reins and sidestep ruts all at the same time. 



I wouldn't disparage the jobs that any other horse does - the show ring isn't for every horse, neither is the lesson ring - but trail horses have their own special jobs and encounter all kinds of uncontrolled stimuli that can't be underestimated.


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## Bombproof

Funny...I've never heard an actual working cowboy denigrate a trail horse. Like the OP, I've seen and even owned horses that were great at an arena sport but couldn't be trusted on the trail. You enjoy your sport and I'll enjoy mine.


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## Woodhaven

bsms "just a trooper" sounds a good deal like "just a trail horse" combined should be awesome


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## SilverMaple

Bombproof said:


> Funny...I've never heard an actual working cowboy denigrate a trail horse. Like the OP, I've seen and even owned horses that were great at an arena sport but couldn't be trusted on the trail. You enjoy your sport and I'll enjoy mine.



Me either. Likely because a good working ranch horse makes a good trail horse, and most trail horses would do decently as a ranch horse. That's one reason the price is so high for a good working ranch-broke gelding. Most of them make darned good trail horses, and you can also take them anywhere and get a job done, or go to a local show and show nearly every class, too.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Bombproof said:


> Funny...I've never heard an actual working cowboy denigrate a trail horse. Like the OP, I've seen and even owned horses that were great at an arena sport but couldn't be trusted on the trail. You enjoy your sport and I'll enjoy mine.



The specific person I mentioned seems to have an arrogance issue - she's also notorious for setting up at my tack vending 'camp' at rodeos and telling other people (lookie lous and potential customers that come by to look at what I have for sale) that she has something better or that 'that brand saddle ain't nothing special (Referencing a hand made Carl Ammerman roping saddle I have for sale).

So... she has a way of chapping my grass anyway, but then the way she said 'just a trail horse' with the tone and demeanor that trail horses are all worthless, grated on me.

I'm more forgiving of the people who don't actually do anything with horses when they say that. The person I mentioned should know better - and that's what bugs me.


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## SilverMaple

^ I'd likely make some comment that having 'just a barrel horse' usually indicates a bad trainer, and if she doesn't know a good saddle from a bad one, she should keep her mouth shut.

Have a friend or relative set up on either side of you to keep her away.... I had one gal who insisted on setting up next to me at fun shows, and her little kids running around drove me nuts, plus her mare was a kicker. My mom ran interference and would park her car just far enough out that nobody could fit in next to me, and the car kept others from getting close enough to be an issue. Pop-up tents, picnic tables, grill setups or corral panels work, too. Get creative


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## keelan

I train dressage to make a better trail horse.
I rode with a formal English Fox Hunt years ago. The ultimate trail ride. It was a blast!
Everyone there trained their horses in dressage to make them fit and responsive.


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## bsms

I ride my horses in hills and sand and twisting between cactus to make them fit and responsive. It shouldn't be arena versus trail. It should be "ride where & how you & your horse enjoy". Nothing wrong with asking a trail horse to do an arena ride, or an arena horse to hit the trails. Nothing wrong with playing basketball one day and doing a long run the next, and hitting the gym the day after that. Nothing wrong with a horse who is happy doing stuff with his rider in an arena. Nothing too wrong with former lesson horse Cowboy, who panics in an arena but is very sensible on trails.

Cowboy, BTW, is responsive to his own thoughts on a trail. Like Trooper, he's a good horse for someone who doesn't want to pay attention to their riding - and matched with the right rider (my wife!), that is a good thing:


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## kewpalace

bsms said:


> It shouldn't be arena versus trail. It should be "ride where & how you & your horse enjoy". Nothing wrong with asking a trail horse to do an arena ride, or an arena horse to hit the trails.


 I cannot afford more than two horses ... while I mainly show now, my horses have to be able to be flexible and do trails, other things, since they are all I have and I want to do more than just show or just trail ride. Plus I think it is good for their minds to get out and do different things.

When I had my first horse, I knew nothing really about horsemanship and would only trail ride as it was easy to just go forward, LOL. I called him "just a trail horse" As I began to learn more and gain more skills, my trainer began to tell me to use those skills on the trail since I had no arena (I still have no arena). So I did - we'd do bending around bushes and trees, back, side pass, whatever. I dropped the "just" and called him a trail horse. When I hear someone say "just a trail horse" I think they have not taught the horse any skills or they don't know that their horse has so much in him with a little training that the "just" could be dropped with a little effort and investment in teaching them (and maybe the rider) a few skills. If the person is a "trainer" I think they are not really a trainer, since all the trainers I know who work with trail horses never describe them as "just" a trail horse - they want the horse to have some skills and be a safe mount for their riders.


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## AndyTheCornbread

I own working ranch horses on which I do a ton of different types of work. The way I see it is some good trail horses are good ranch horses but all good ranch horses are good trail horses. You spend a lot of time on the trails with a good ranch horse be it too and from hunting camps or to and from remote graze leases etc. If they aren't good on the trails then they aren't a good ranch horse.


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## redbadger

After posting, I went off to the barn, and came back with the perfect example of my just a trail horse. 😄 (Toby does ring lessons as well, but his primary job is on the line). So we were lead (with my instructor and Steel following us) and all was going more or less usual until we found a downed sapling, directly across the trail. Well, I thought, I'm lead so this is my responsibility. And credit to my instructor, she elected to hang back and let me try and solve it myself. So picture skinny sapling, barely a branch, small enough for me to grip, with some brush at the very tip. It's partly snapped, so at about stirrup height. Swung Toby's butt over so we were parallel and sidepassed him close enough to grab the branch/sapling. My thought was to lift it and pass it over us and then push it out of the way. Toby was perfect: he did just as I asked, he kept steady when I moved the treeling. Unfortunately, I failed because the tree was too green to just snap, and I lost my grip. My instructor dismounted to wedge it behind another tree but: even though my plan didn't work, Toby trusted me, did exactly what I needed, didn't freak out about the rattly whispery tree. We've practiced similar things in the ring, and now we've had a practical application in the wild. His training (note: we really don't know his history before about age 9 or so, whenever he came to the barn, but obviously indications are he's had some dressage training) before helped, and what I've learned about him in lessons. There are definitely horses at the barn I'm not sure could've done it, but we also did it together.


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## texasgal

I love this thread. 

Living in a world of "every horse needs to be a roping horse or a barrel horse" .. I proudly call mine "just a trail horse" .. then I don't hear anything else that is said because I'm daydreaming about my next adventure: horses eagerly loading in trailer, unloading in unfamiliar place, settling into unfamiliar pens, early morning rides on new trails, ears pricked and horses and riders enjoying the sights, smells, sounds, terrain. Bedding down for the night, horses munching hay, campfires .... What were you saying?


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## phantomhorse13

CopperLove said:


> a guess that Dreama might be an Arabian x Saddlebred cross (again we'll never actually know but it's fun to guess since it doesn't really matter at this point.) I was curious as to what someone would want that particular cross for, whether it might have been on purpose or whether it was an "oops", so I looked it up and what I found was that people use them for saddle seat shows.


That is also a good cross for distance riding. This is Flo, a National Show Horse who was purpose-bred to be an endurance horse:









I hear the "just a trail horse" thing a lot as well. While I admit that still makes me grind my teeth, my response now is to invite the person saying it to ride with me. I make sure to tell them they can pick the mileage, terrain, and speed as I don't always ride 20 miles up the local mountains at a trot every conditioning ride.

Funny, nobody has taken me up on it.. :Angel:


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## CopperLove

phantomhorse13 said:


> That is also a good cross for distance riding. This is Flo, a National Show Horse who was purpose-bred to be an endurance horse:


That's awesome :smile:


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## nohiogal

My horse is “just a trail horse” because that is what I wanted to do. I LOVE the trails.

In her previous life she was a halter show horse. After she was broke at 12 she was in one walk/trot show and then I started leasing her. I told the woman I leased from that I had no interest in showing, still don’t. She gave her to me as she can no longer show due to health reasons, she is 86, and I think she finally came to terms with the fact that the her mare was not going to be in any future shows. 

She is a Part-Bred Arabian and she is turning into a wonderful trail horse. Not only that but I think she really enjoys it. She likes to think and to please so I feel we are both doing what we love.

I guess some people may say that she is not doing what she was bred for, but I always feel that you should do what you love to do, not what someone else dictates you should be doing.


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## mslady254

@atexasgal Love the boots hanging from the horn ...lol..but have to ask....why?

Fay


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## egrogan

I thought of this thread this morning while I was out riding. We were trotting along up a hill, minding our own business, when over the crest of the hill comes three motorcyclists on fancy road bikes. The lead guy nicely slows down and asks if we'll be ok if they go by. I said of course, so they revved up and went...followed over the crest of the hill by 10 more...and 10 more after that. It was some kind of road tour and this endless line of them went by as we trotted on our way. They were very respectful and kept things pretty slow, waving and saying hello as I thanked them. This road is a country dirt road which is wide enough for only one car at a time, so we were in pretty close quarters. But my horse just trotted along like it was no big deal as the bike chain snaked past us. Gotta love a good trail horse! :grin:


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## walkinthewalk

This is my 25 year old show bred-but-never-made-it Tennessee Walker, Rusty. 

He's been with me since he was 2-1/2 years. He's a broke-to-death trail horse who royally saved DH's bacon on a narrow cliff side trail in Southern California many years ago. DH lied about checking his cinch before we started down that narrow trail -- saddle slipped -- thankfully toward the cliff side and not the drop off side. Rusty stopped and pretty much held his breath while DH struggled to get his foot un-stuck from the stirrup as the top half of his body was lying against the rocks.

I was ahead of them on Duke (RIP), the trail so narrow I couldn't get off Duke so had to slowly back his also show-bred self backward about 75 feet. By the time we backed up, DH had un-stuck himself, I reamed his awrse out royally and he hand walked Rusty down the rest of the trail.

A few weeks later DH put Rusty down, crossing a small ravine and tried to throw Rusty under the bus, saying it was his fault --- anyone on this forum who "knows" me, knows how well that went over, lollol. 

That was the last time DH ever rode any of my horses. He is grounded off my horses forever BUT he is very much allowed to help with the grunt work, which is what he was doing in this picture this morning.

What you can't see is the 17 CuFt dump cart full of shavings, manure, & hay hooked to the 4-wheeler. DH had been doing all of that while I was shampooing Rusty -- "just an old trail horse" Rusty was totally unflapped when the 4-wheeler backed up behind/beside him, to hook to the dump cart, while I was shampooing him.

My Rottweiler and Catahoula/Pit Bull mix were also milling around in there.

Granted Rusty is 25 and has been "to several county fairs and a couple of wagon burnings", but he was this good when he was a five year old. I tell him every summer to be thankful for his humble life style -- he has a lot of relatives getting primped for WGC right now. Many of them will end up at auction for being deemed "Losers", just like what happened to him as a two year old -- Rusty was one of the lucky ones in that he had a soft landing and became a priceless "just some old trail horse".


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## trailhorserider

You know, we talk about show horses like it is the pinnacle of horsedom. But I would like to think shows.......at least originally, were for showing off what your horses could do at home and the quality of horses you bred. A showcase of horses brought together for quality inspection and "showing off" to your fellow horsemen, not the actual final GOAL of all your training and breeding as it seems to have become now. 

I'd like to think 100 years ago if you have a wonderful trail horse (they were probably actually just considered good using horses back then!) you brought him to the fair and had fun on him and showed him off to your neighbors and maybe if you bred your own horses, you would find people interested in breeding to your stallion or buying one of your colts. Now it seems like the show ring is the end goal. I'm not sure if I like that. Having a top show horse would be wonderful and fun. But I'm not sure if we are doing horses a disservice by breeding for that goal alone, instead of breeding for horses that could actually be used outside the ring.

It's like showing has become the goal instead of a showcase of horses that actually get used in real-world activities. You see that the most in halter I think, but I also think it shows up in some pleasure type riding classes. I think the danger of this shift in philosophy can be seen in dog showing where they are bred specifically for some arbitrary standard of beauty instead of dogs that can actually perform the function they were bred for. Why aren't they judged on the ability to do what they were bred for? That would make a lot more sense. Conformation standards should be judged on the ability of the dog (or horse or whatever) to perform it's function in the real world. At least that's what I think.


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## Avna

walkinthewalk said:


> This is my 25 year old show bred-but-never-made-it Tennessee Walker, Rusty.
> 
> He's been with me since he was 2-1/2 years. He's a broke-to-death trail horse who royally saved DH's bacon on a narrow cliff side trail in Southern California many years ago. DH lied about checking his cinch before we started down that narrow trail -- saddle slipped -- thankfully toward the cliff side and not the drop off side. Rusty stopped and pretty much held his breath while DH struggled to get his foot un-stuck from the stirrup as the top half of his body was lying against the rocks.
> 
> I was ahead of them on Duke (RIP), the trail so narrow I couldn't get off Duke so had to slowly back his also show-bred self backward about 75 feet. By the time we backed up, DH had un-stuck himself, I reamed his awrse out royally and he hand walked Rusty down the rest of the trail.
> 
> A few weeks later DH put Rusty down, crossing a small ravine and tried to throw Rusty under the bus, saying it was his fault --- anyone on this forum who "knows" me, knows how well that went over, lollol.
> 
> That was the last time DH ever rode any of my horses. He is grounded off my horses forever BUT he is very much allowed to help with the grunt work, which is what he was doing in this picture this morning.
> 
> What you can't see is the 17 CuFt dump cart full of shavings, manure, & hay hooked to the 4-wheeler. DH had been doing all of that while I was shampooing Rusty -- "just an old trail horse" Rusty was totally unflapped when the 4-wheeler backed up behind/beside him, to hook to the dump cart, while I was shampooing him.
> 
> My Rottweiler and Catahoula/Pit Bull mix were also milling around in there.
> 
> Granted Rusty is 25 and has been "to several county fairs and a couple of wagon burnings", but he was this good when he was a five year old. I tell him every summer to be thankful for his humble life style -- he has a lot of relatives getting primped for WGC right now. Many of them will end up at auction for being deemed "Losers", just like what happened to him as a two year old -- Rusty was one of the lucky ones in that he had a soft landing and became a priceless "just some old trail horse".
> 
> View attachment 994647


Any TWH has to be grateful to be a trail horse instead of what they do to those poor poor horses in the show ring.


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## mmshiro

trailhorserider said:


> You know, we talk about show horses like it is the pinnacle of horsedom. But I would like to think shows.......at least originally, were for showing off what your horses could do at home and the quality of horses you bred.


There is no doubt - just like the Olympic Games were for warriors to show off their useful skills, not for Greece's youth to train for medals (or laurels). Some people thrive on measuring their worth by the opinion of a random and artificially selected set of judges; and I most likely wouldn't stand a chance. However, if I can ride a horse so that it is calmer with me than when being ridden by a pro, I know I have sufficient skills to do well by whichever horse I'm riding.

The thing is that competitions are valuable for feedback in the lower and middle ranks - where it goes from "You suck!" to "You're solid!" At the top, you quickly get diminishing returns with higher ranks. In Statistics, we say "Not everything that it statistically significant is practically significant."


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## AndyTheCornbread

The same thing happened with hunting dog breeds like labs. Years ago they started to stop being hunting dogs and started just being bred and shown purely for the show itself. To combat this people started what are known as field trials but then people started breeding dogs that were really good at field trials only so we ended up with really light, small, very hyper labs who were good at finding a couple of bids real quick and were worthless for retrieving all day in icy water which is what they were bred for originally. Try finding a good lab now days that can hunt all day and handle being in and out of icy water. It's like trying to find a unicorn. I had to drive 500 miles one way to get mine and he isn't registered. It was just two families who both had hunting labs that decided to have a litter of pups with their two dogs. A guy locally had bailed out after placing a deposit on one of the pups for whatever reason so they had one left over. I drove down that day, picked him up and drove late into the wee hours of the morning bringing him home. He had better live forever because I have no idea how we are going to replace him. Anyway, it just goes to show you that the whole culture of breeding for shows ruins more than just horses, it ruins dog breeds as well. I see it with pigs too, the pigs that are shown in 4-H are super lean with large muscle structure and very little intramuscular fat. They make terrible, very chewy bacon, and super dry pork that is pretty awful to try to cook with. You can go buy a cheap meat pig for 1/3 or less the price and end up with a much, MUCH better end eating result when it is fully grown. I think by and large the whole concept of "showing" does more harm than good in the long run as far as breeds of animals are concerned. In the case of dogs even trying to correct this to have purpose shows like field trials ended up ruining the breeds just as badly as the traditional show ring did.


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## ksbowman

AndyTheCornbread said:


> The same thing happened with hunting dog breeds like labs. Years ago they started to stop being hunting dogs and started just being bred and shown purely for the show itself. To combat this people started what are known as field trials but then people started breeding dogs that were really good at field trials only so we ended up with really light, small, very hyper labs who were good at finding a couple of bids real quick and were worthless for retrieving all day in icy water which is what they were bred for originally. Try finding a good lab now days that can hunt all day and handle being in and out of icy water. It's like trying to find a unicorn. I had to drive 500 miles one way to get mine and he isn't registered. It was just two families who both had hunting labs that decided to have a litter of pups with their two dogs. A guy locally had bailed out after placing a deposit on one of the pups for whatever reason so they had one left over. I drove down that day, picked him up and drove late into the wee hours of the morning bringing him home. He had better live forever because I have no idea how we are going to replace him. Anyway, it just goes to show you that the whole culture of breeding for shows ruins more than just horses, it ruins dog breeds as well. I see it with pigs too, the pigs that are shown in 4-H are super lean with large muscle structure and very little intramuscular fat. They make terrible, very chewy bacon, and super dry pork that is pretty awful to try to cook with. You can go buy a cheap meat pig for 1/3 or less the price and end up with a much, MUCH better end eating result when it is fully grown. I think by and large the whole concept of "showing" does more harm than good in the long run as far as breeds of animals are concerned. In the case of dogs even trying to correct this to have purpose shows like field trials ended up ruining the breeds just as badly as the traditional show ring did.


 Truer words were never spoken! Good job Andy!


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## AtokaGhosthorse

AndyTheCornbread said:


> The same thing happened with hunting dog breeds like labs. Years ago they started to stop being hunting dogs and started just being bred and shown purely for the show itself. To combat this people started what are known as field trials but then people started breeding dogs that were really good at field trials only so we ended up with really light, small, very hyper labs who were good at finding a couple of bids real quick and were worthless for retrieving all day in icy water which is what they were bred for originally. Try finding a good lab now days that can hunt all day and handle being in and out of icy water. It's like trying to find a unicorn. I had to drive 500 miles one way to get mine and he isn't registered. It was just two families who both had hunting labs that decided to have a litter of pups with their two dogs. A guy locally had bailed out after placing a deposit on one of the pups for whatever reason so they had one left over. I drove down that day, picked him up and drove late into the wee hours of the morning bringing him home. He had better live forever because I have no idea how we are going to replace him. Anyway, it just goes to show you that the whole culture of breeding for shows ruins more than just horses, it ruins dog breeds as well. I see it with pigs too, the pigs that are shown in 4-H are super lean with large muscle structure and very little intramuscular fat. They make terrible, very chewy bacon, and super dry pork that is pretty awful to try to cook with. You can go buy a cheap meat pig for 1/3 or less the price and end up with a much, MUCH better end eating result when it is fully grown. I think by and large the whole concept of "showing" does more harm than good in the long run as far as breeds of animals are concerned. In the case of dogs even trying to correct this to have purpose shows like field trials ended up ruining the breeds just as badly as the traditional show ring did.


I was never involved in the ag stuff in school - my family just weren't the ranching/farming types. My husband was, and even won a scholarship to some college for judging cattle. Which he didn't use because that wasn't the field he wanted to go into. 

Fast forward from the late-80s/early 90s when he was in ag in H.S. to a couple of years ago.

He and a friend of ours were catering the local livestock show (Big smoker trailer food, mmm mmm) and he came home and just shook his head.

He was stunned. Absolutely stunned. He said some of the show calves could barely walk they were so fat, legs too short, no muscle tone to speak of. He said they looked bloated and obese, and the winner was one of them that could barely support his own weight. He said back in his judging days, there would have been NO WAY any of those calves could have won - they were just unhealthy examples of livestock and in no way reflected what an actual rancher would want to raise, breed, and sell, they'd have too many health problems as they matured.

On another note: We rode Platter Flats on Lake Texoma this weekend. Met some new people, have stayed in touch as they were looking for other people to ride with that day and in the future. They were camping. He's a roper, she trail rides and had a friend with her who also trail rides.

For the husband and wife, it was a day long training activity - they have horses that haven't been out of a rodeo arena much, both are 7 year olds, and it was indeed a rodeo the entire day for them. Third person's was super laid back and chill. The other two were trying to get their horse's minds right and I applaud them. I saw a few things I'd have done differently, but then, those aren't my horses, I don't know their history or training, I don't know how they react or don't react, etc. 

When we stopped at Roosters Roost (The halfway point/turning back point) we all had a snack and a stretch. The wife mentioned she'd watched a video a few months back. Couldn't remember where, but talked like it was an e-zine for horsemen. A guy that trains barrel and roping horses and does training videos started his video with: Let me tell you about these trail riders... And she said, I thought, oh boy. Here we go... and was ready to hate that guy.

He went on to say (And I'm paraphrasing because I got all this 2nd hand): 

I get people in here taking lessons, needing their horse sent for training, and I ask them what they do with their horse and a lot of them reply: Oh, I just trail ride.

Well, let me tell you about just trail riders, rodeo people. Trail horses are badass. They have to have endurance, agility, be sane, be sound, and trustworthy. They get a work out your horse doesn't get. They get exposed to wildlife and situations no arena horse will ever encounter. What trail riders do is as dangerous as what you're doing in the arena, if not more so. 

He went on a length, and she said it was a good, solid discussion on trail horses and trail riders. She was trying to remember where she'd seen it and has promised if she remembers, she'll send a link.

To go on even more at length - I've been meaning to put taps on my saddle. I know it'll look stupid since I ride a barrel saddle, but after Saturday's ride, I'm pretty sure I need to.

Riding along, going down a slightly slick and muddy red clay slope, Trigger is chugging along, and WHAM.... a tree limb, fallen beside the trail, had a stick up. It stabbed right over the top of my boot, wedged between the stirrup and was poking through enough to gouge Trigger in the belly.

It was about 8 feet long... and began dragging along... Before I could shut him down, he caught a glimpse of A SCARY THING throwing up leaves and dragging MORE LIMBS along with it. He wanted to turn to face it, LOOOOOK at it, but when his but would swing around a little and his body would shift in position, it would sweep around and rake up leaves and debris.... YEfreakinHAW.

I expected all Hell to break loose... I couldn't get the darn thing out, we're on a downhill slope, in slick clay, it won't break off, I couldn't shake my boot loose from the stirrup, I couldn't turn my boot out enough to get it dislodged because when if I'd tried, the spur would have engaged and he'd have swung around on that slick slope and could have lost his footing. I couldn't lean forward to reach down and get it because of the angle of the slope. We literally had to get down in the creek bed, dragging it and everything else it gathered up with us. Half of it snapped off on the drag. The sound of that happening boogered him even more. I had to be his rock... he was wanting to lose his mind and bolt in fear... and I was not the least bit anxious. Just aware there was a problem that needed a solution. Me to him: Dude, let me fix the problem... just hold still... Hold what you got...

He did, he wasn't happy about it, but he got still enough I could reach down, lift the limb enough to get my boot out and the limb dropped to the ground.

It's nutty stuff like this that makes a person realize how much trust you and your horse have to have in one another to trial ride. Weird stuff can happen at any moment.

I think I'll put taps on my saddle now. LOL


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## walkinthewalk

@AtokaGhosthorse, doesn't country singer Blake Shelton have a cabin on Lake Texhoma? 

Or maybe his entire ranch is there. He's from that area

Boy, I'd be carrying my binoculars looking for that, lol

@AndyTheCornbread, this has happened to many dog breeds. The Doberman I had back in 70's was thick boned and muscular. He was svelte compared to other dogs but he still would not begin to come close to resembling the thin/spindly-looking Dobermans of today


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## bsms

Do an image search for "quarter horse halter champion". Scary stuff!

I've spent 4 years trying to convince Bandit that if he feels very bad about something, I'll dismount and make the bad thing go away. It took a couple of years for him to really believe it. Now? If he is scared or nervous, he WANTS to stop and stand still while I dismount. And that's a beautiful thing! Mia viewed my dismounting as the Captain abandoning ship, so any attempt to dismount meant she would explode. That was NOT good!

I prefer a horse who says, "_I'm getting overwhelmed! How about I stop, you dismount, and take care of me?_" And when the bad thing is gone, Bandit is like, "_Cool! Now get back on...we're burning daylight!_" :Angel: But it took work and riding into some bad spots to get him there. Training. Not in rein cues or how to move, but how to behave in a way that helps us both on a trail.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

walkinthewalk said:


> @*AtokaGhosthorse* , doesn't country singer Blake Shelton have a cabin on Lake Texhoma?
> 
> Or maybe his entire ranch is there. He's from that area
> 
> Boy, I'd be carrying my binoculars looking for that, lol



Yes, yes, and yes. LOL He is from Tishomingo, Oklahoma, about 45 minutes east from where I live. He regularly flies in to the Durant muni airport, then takes a private chopper (His) from Durant to Tish. 

He bought out Miranda's businesses in downtown Tishomingo, and has put in a restaurant which he sometimes randomly shows up at. Has live music on the weekends, lots of events there, etc. I have not been there to eat yet, it's supposedly rather pricey compared to other eateries within our driving range. Website doesn't give any prices, so I can't say if that's true or not from first hand experience. Could just be that folks local to Tish find it pricey when really, it isn't.


Rumor has it he still goes to the local feed store in Tish and just sits around shooting the stick, hangs around there all morning long.


We have a couple other a-list county music artists from around here. By around here, I mean... anywhere in Oklahoma. Reba McEntire is from my town, I know her entire family, but have never met her. Her brother, Pake, is a salty fellow but I LIKE him. Alice, her oldest sister (I think) is very involved in the Atoka County Trailriders I'm a part of, and I've talked with Susie (Youngest sister) many times. Her son ropes and also sells live crawfish and fresh shrimp during crawfish berl season.

I've seen Toby Keith at Ken Lance (Arena and dance hall) back when he wasn't known at all. We didn't go see to Toby Keith at Ken Lance. We saw some guy (A really BIG DUDE) that sang for the Easy Money Band on rodeo night and had no idea that's who it was until years and years later.


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## Avna

I only know of one single AKC dog breed that has not been turned into a worthless grotesque caricature of itself (even toy breeds!) and that is the Brittany. Still a lot of dual field/conformation champs who are family hunting dogs. But it's an uncommon breed and that helps. 

It is sad but unsurprising that the same exact thing happens with horses. I went to watch a national Morgan show recently and the next weekend went to Vermont to see the Lippitt Morgan Country Show. The two types of Morgan looked like two different species. But my teacher, who went to both shows with me, told me that you can usually bring those show Morgans back down to earth if you take their artificial feet off, and their tail-set harness they live in, let them out of their stalls on to pasture and let them be horses, and, importantly, take them out on trails. Walk them out in the real world on a loose rein for a year, and they will be real horses again, and pretty good ones.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

@*Avna* You know, I'd noticed this with TWHs. The ones people actually ride out and about vs. the ones you see in the ring, are two very different animals. I'd say the same thing with a lot of Thoroughbreds. 

And I love Arabians, always have, but some of what a few are breeding for now... that extreme dish face... just looks BIZARRE to me. Like a cartoon horse. I wonder what sort of problems, mentally and physically those horses will develop as the breeding trend continues.


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## Woodhaven

@Atoka I found your story about the branch very interesting, and:my hat off to you on how you handled it. Very scary indeed for your horse.

a very small incident (not like yours at all) but still shows the capabilities of a trail horse. Sis and I were riding this deer trail that we had worked on and opened up a bit. One side was thick heavy brush the other side a steep drop into the river. We came across a downed tree too low to squeeze under and too high to get over so I decided we could "bush whack" and break a way around through this thick bush/trees. I started to work my way around and my mare stopped, I thought she was concerned that she couldn't push through and encouraged her on. She wouldn't and tried to back up but then stopped and just stood there.
Sis calls out to me that she had her leg caught in the fork of a large branch.

I got off and she stood like a statue as I wrestled with the branch and got her foot out and managed, with some effort, to move it out of the way. 

If my horse had panicked and flew back, it was over the bank and down into the river, and I'm not sure how well she swims so didn't want that.

A good sensible horse is worth a great deal, no matter what you do with it.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

@*Woodhaven* - I've never had that happen before. At least not to that extreme. I've had smaller sticks jab up in my stirrup, which is why in the past I'd considered tapaderos. I've never had one that wouldn't break and was big enough to scare the horse do that. It was just a freak deal. I'm just glad I didn't panic myself, like I would have done two or three years ago. Now I have more of a deadpan Well.... Crap. reaction. Getting all worked up just spins Trigger into orbit and doesn't fix a problem. 

And yeah. HOLY MOLY. That's a situation you found yourself in that the wrong horse on the trail could have absolutely lost his or her mind and gotten you and them both hurt, or at the very least, dunked.


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## Avna

I watched a long video clip from the Tevis Cup (run yesterday or the day before) where the riders come out from under an overpass, make a sharp steep turn, cross the overpass and down another trail. It's a head-count check point so the riders call out their numbers as they pass. It is about 5 miles into the 100 mile race, and the clip starts before dawn, as the race begins and ends in darkness. I bet 95% of those horses are Arabians or Arab crosses. They are clearly raring to go but are all controlled. They are so fit it made me ashamed of my pudgy mare, but it was also inspiring. The endurance-bred Arabians are one of the, I hope, success stories about how breeding for competition CAN be a good thing every once in a while. I think it helps a lot that the sport is so intensely regulated, and that doped-up or otherwise abused horses have no chance to even pass the first vet check. At least in the US (the opposite is true in the Middle East).


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## Dustbunny

All of you fellow trail riders are just THE BEST!!!!!!!!


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## trailhorserider

Avna said:


> I watched a long video clip from the Tevis Cup (run yesterday or the day before) where the riders come out from under an overpass, make a sharp steep turn, cross the overpass and down another trail. It's a head-count check point so the riders call out their numbers as they pass. It is about 5 miles into the 100 mile race, and the clip starts before dawn, as the race begins and ends in darkness. I bet 95% of those horses are Arabians or Arab crosses. They are clearly raring to go but are all controlled. They are so fit it made me ashamed of my pudgy mare, but it was also inspiring. The endurance-bred Arabians are one of the, I hope, success stories about how breeding for competition CAN be a good thing every once in a while. I think it helps a lot that the sport is so intensely regulated, and that doped-up or otherwise abused horses have no chance to even pass the first vet check. At least in the US (the opposite is true in the Middle East).



Endurance isn't the same as a show competition because the horses HAVE to be sound athletes. There is really not a good way to cheat in endurance! What worries me about show ring classes is the horse only have to stay sound for a few minutes in the ring, and then they can probably be on bute or whatever to help with that. There is less incentive to breed for a long lasting, sound horse as long as it can make it through it's classes and do well. I guess I feel this way for selfish reasons........I want any horse I buy to be rideable (God willing) into it's early 20's at least. That's my hope anyway!


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## Avna

trailhorserider said:


> Endurance isn't the same as a show competition because the horses HAVE to be sound athletes. There is really not a good way to cheat in endurance! What worries me about show ring classes is the horse only have to stay sound for a few minutes in the ring, and then they can probably be on bute or whatever to help with that. There is less incentive to breed for a long lasting, sound horse as long as it can make it through it's classes and do well. I guess I feel this way for selfish reasons........I want any horse I buy to be rideable (God willing) into it's early 20's at least. That's my hope anyway!


Yes, exactly.


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## walkinthewalk

trailhorserider said:


> There is less incentive to breed for a long lasting, sound horse as long as it can make it through it's classes and do well. I guess I feel this way for selfish reasons........I want any horse I buy to be rideable (God willing) into it's early 20's at least. That's my hope anyway!


If I were younger, therefore still able to ride because my injuries wouldn't have caught to me yet, I am pretty sure I would go back to my Arab/crosses. 

This guy was Arab/Saddlebred. He was five in this pic and not even saddle broke. I was 18 (1965) and just graduated high school. His hooves had hit the ground on my parents farm so I trained him with my granddad's help

He went on his last 30 mile organized ride when he was 27. It was not a timed ride but he finished well ahead of a few QH's whose owners had mocked him at the beginning of the ride

He was tough as nails and so was his Arab/Morgan buddy who was also on that ride and finished right alongside. -- he was 25

This fella was with me from his birth until I laid him to rest with cancer at age 29. He was a huge motored horse - much more "go" than the average trail rider wants but he did not have an ounce buck, kick, rear or bite in him.


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## CopperLove

I thought about this thread some this weekend, as Miss Dreama had another chance to show us how she handles being a trail horse and I was proud of her.

Friday was the first time I had personally ridden her on a trail. My instructor was going to ride her out to get past some of the antsy-prancey stage that she tends to go through out of eagerness at the beginning of the ride, then we would switch on the trail and I would ride her around and back.

I saddled and bridled Dreama by myself and apparently did a better job checking her cinch before we headed out than we did on Winchester, the quarter horse I was to ride out before the switch. My instructor was in front on Dreama when we headed up the hill. (In front because she REALLY prefers to be in front. She will stay back if you ask her, but she dislikes being stuck behind a slow horse.)

On the way uphill, my saddle started to slip sideways. We were on an incline and not in a good place to stop nor dismount; my instructor gave me verbal instruction to shift my weight to the right. It speaks volumes about how far I’ve come so far compared to where I started that I was not freaking out… I could feel myself sliding but knew enough to shift my weight and sort of “wiggle” the saddle back in place until we got to the top. If that had happened a month ago I’d have been in a panic.

Once at the top the trail split and was a bit narrow, still was not the best place to dismount, but he told me to stay put while he dismounted to fix the cinch. By this point I’d managed to shift and wiggle the saddle back to center over Winchester’s back and she was waiting patiently (another good example of “just a trail horse”, she can be a bit stubborn but is largely unflappable when it comes to situations on the trail.)

My instructor was having problems dismounting on the narrow trail. On the low side was a ditch and on the high-side was brush. Eventually he unwound her lead rope from the saddle-horn and took it in hand so he would still have hold of her, and slid back off the saddle and came down over her bum. It was definitely not a maneuver I’d have tried, but he has worked with her a lot with trail situations in mind and I guess (I hope) had a pretty good idea of how she’d react. She handled it beautifully even though it was unconventional; to her it was just another human coming down off her back.

Later when we switched, we encountered a small ditch across the trail and my instructor was explaining that I could walk her over, and she would probably have to extend herself just a bit to get over it, just a little bit of a hop as he described it. He pointed out off to the side of the trail that there was an area there was no ditch to cross and said I could take her that way, or he would dismount and he could lead us across if I wanted to try it but was concerned since I hadn’t gone over a spot like this on the trail before. I told him it was fine and that I would guide her around.

Except that guiding her around turned into a much bigger jump than the little stretch over the ditch would have been. I don’t think she was certain of the ground… we’d just been looking at a ditch, and now I was asking her to cross a little farther up and all she could see was leaves and brush on the ground. In her mind, I assume that going over was safer than stepping into uncertain ground and possibly putting her foot in a hole.

It was all over so fast I didn’t have time to worry about it. She jumped, landed, and came back to our walk easily without freaking out about the human on her back rocking very un-gracefully in the saddle. It wasn’t ideal, wouldn’t have been my first choice, but she did what she thought I was asking of her and kept both of us intact so that’s all I could really have hoped for.

I feel like someone had to have spent time with her on trails in addition to whatever else she did in her former life because she is proving to be so confident so far, and I am very grateful for that.


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## CopperLove

@walkinthewalk I just have to say, that is THE most gorgeous photo.


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## QueenofFrance08

My "just a trail horse" experienced the craziest trail obstacle we've ever had this weekend. While on our 50 mile ride at one of the MN state forests we were on the trail next to a privately owned potato field. Apparently the irrigators started running on the other side of the trees right when we passed by so he had to deal with a giant monster spitting water over him that he couldn't see. He wanted to run but stayed sane and got us out of there safely. He just turned 18 by the way and has done 5-25 mile competitions and 2-50 mile rides this season (since May). Purebred Arab.


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## SilverMaple

Avna said:


> I only know of one single AKC dog breed that has not been turned into a worthless grotesque caricature of itself


Not all breeds. My two breeds, the Samoyed and the Belgian Sheepdog (I'm also including the Tervuren, Malinois, and Laekenois in here as in Europe they're all one breed) still look as they did in the past, and most dogs, whether bred for work or the show ring, can do both. Today's Samoyed looks like the expedition dogs that came out of the arctic 130 years ago, and most of the show dogs can (and many do) run on sled teams, do weight pull, herd, as well as do dock diving, obedience, agility, and therapy work. My Belgians were show Champions and titled in agility, obedience, agility, and one did narc detection. Littermates to both are titled in Schutzhund, French Ring, and one worked with the Border Patrol, and my Samoyeds compete in conformation as well as obedience, weight pull, and all but one have spent time on a sled team at some point in their lives. Some breed fanciers do still want, and breed for, a dog that can win in the ring AND do the work for which it was intended.


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## SilverMaple

I was riding a colt with 20 rides on him the other day with a friend who has an OTTB mare. We were ambling down the road when directly over us comes a crop dusting plane. That plane was so low he was going UNDER the electric lines along the road-- literally about 6 feet over our heads. My colt got a little antsy but stayed under control, and by the third pass over, didn't react at all. The big mare champed her teeth and pinned her ears, but also did not react dangerously. The OTTB mare was ruled off the racetrack for misbehavior at the gate and a habit of dumping her jockey and running back to the barn as soon as the gate opened or when anything scared her, and the colt I'm starting is quick and catty and bred to be a cutter, but both did us proud. 



So, add 'getting buzzed by a cropduster' to your list of things trail horses have to put up with! That's also not the first time it's happened to me-- I think I've been buzzed by cropdusters half a dozen times, at least, over the years. Surprisingly, the only horse that lost his cookies was a pleasure-bred Quarter Horse, and those are usually 'born broke' and unflappable.


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## Avna

SilverMaple said:


> Not all breeds. My two breeds, the Samoyed and the Belgian Sheepdog (I'm also including the Tervuren, Malinois, and Laekenois in here as in Europe they're all one breed) still look as they did in the past, and most dogs, whether bred for work or the show ring, can do both. Today's Samoyed looks like the expedition dogs that came out of the arctic 130 years ago, and most of the show dogs can (and many do) run on sled teams, do weight pull, herd, as well as do dock diving, obedience, agility, and therapy work. My Belgians were show Champions and titled in agility, obedience, agility, and one did narc detection. Littermates to both are titled in Schutzhund, French Ring, and one worked with the Border Patrol, and my Samoyeds compete in conformation as well as obedience, weight pull, and all but one have spent time on a sled team at some point in their lives. Some breed fanciers do still want, and breed for, a dog that can win in the ring AND do the work for which it was intended.


Samoyeds don't look like they did originally. They are heavier-built, with the posty legs and plush-toy faces that are popular in the show ring for many breeds. If you look at vintage photos of Samoyeds with the nomadic reindeer-herders, they are a smaller, more wolfish looking dog. Also they, like other AKC sled-dog breeds, have been totally eclipsed in terms of performance by 'Alaskan Huskies' which are not a registered breed at all, but totally performance-selected. They leave AKC sled dog breeds in the dust. 

The Belgians have gone a different route. The Malinois has become a pre-eminent police and military K-9 in both the US and Europe, more popular than the German Shepherd and Doberman for that work now. They are probably the most intense dogs I have ever met. Not a beginner dog. The Tervuren and the Sheepdog varieties are not generally used for professional K-9 work at least in the US, and most of them are bred for conformation shows. I am not saying they are not able dogs, but they rarely compete with purpose-bred dogs at the top levels any more. They also look different than they used to, having heavier showier ruffs, thicker coats, and their heads are now oddly narrow and without a 'stop' and are beginning to remind me of the show Collie head. 

This is a discussion I have had hundreds of times in the past thirty years. You can divide serious dog breeders into three types. 

One, those solely interested in breeding the best-performing animals. Those who use Border Collies and Kelpies for herd and flock management, Alaskan Husky mushers, people who run coonhounds, K-9 breeders of various breeds, and a very few others. These people believe that the work forms the appearance of the dog. They pick the best working dogs and let appearance sort itself out. Often these dogs "don't look like purebreds" to the public, but they work exactly like them.

Two, those solely interested in breeding dogs that win beauty contests. These people often pay lip service to the "original use" of the dog and how it is supposed to look like it could still do that job, but they couldn't be more delusional. 

Three, those like @SilverMaple who want to "have it all" -- the performance, the show looks. They almost always compete in multiple dog sport venues which have proliferated in the past 25 years or so, many of which were invented to showcase various traditional uses of those breeds-- carting for the mastiff breeds, "barn hunts" with caged rats for the terriers, lure coursing for the sight hounds, and low-bar herding contests for the herding breeds. These vary in strenuousness and amount of both training and instinct required. Schutzhund is not for the fainthearted! 

My personal observation is that you cannot have it all. The goals of the show ring are, despite what anyone wants to believe, incompatible with breeding for top performance. In dogs anyway. Good performance, sure. Fun performance, sure. Beat out a breed which has done nothing more than pose for ten generations, sure. But not top performance. Ask an Iditarod competitor what they think of Samoyeds, or Siberians, which were actually racing sled dogs originally. Ask a rancher if they would let a show Border Collie or Aussie in with their sheep. Ask a military dog trainer if they take in a lot of Belgian Sheepdogs.

People who are intensely passionate about breeding show dogs who can also work are a small subset of dog enthusiasts -- I knew a lot them in the Aussie world. Nobody works harder than the "versatilty" breeders. And I have seen a lot those dogs work. They are athletic and biddable, and can do the non-instinctive sports like agility very well, but not the work they were originally bred to do, not at anything like the level needed to compete with the non-show, performance-only dogs. They simply have been bred for too many widely differing things. 

I think it is just the way genetics is. I've been observing this for decades, and nothing I have seen has convinced me otherwise, in any breed. I think it is truly laudable to try to "keep the work" in show breeds. It does much to keep the breed healthier, more athletic, and saner. They still are not true performance breeds, as in my Category One. 

Now this has gotten far off the subject!


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## Woodhaven

We have crop dusters here but never have I been buzzed by one, by a helicopter tho. 
I had bought this gelding and he had been ridden by a teen age boy who rode with a mechanical hackamore and just let the horse race back to the barn when they went out. This horse had the worst head tossing problem I have ever seen in a horse but I thought I could work with him and get him over his problems.

I rode him in a Myler comfort snaffle and did a little ring work with him and the first time I took him out for a long ride, I rode across a couple of fields and was just turning back for home ( this is where I anticipated any problems) when a helicopter passed right over us. There is a pipe line running through these properties and they are checked occasionally by helicopter. 
It was the worst place for this to happen as we had turned back for home and this is when he would really take off. Well, I managed to keep him under control but we had to travel up and down that property until he finally settled down and walked and of course we had to walk ALL the way home as he was so agitated that to trot was not something to do at that time.

I have to say that when we got the head tossing solved we went on to show dressage and he won 5 year end awards for me. A good horse.


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## dustywyatt

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> It just gets old to hear people dismiss a fine ******* equitation horse.


"******* Equitation"...lol! I'm gonna have to remember that one. 

I am ashamed to admit that once upon a time I was one of those "just-a-trail-horse" snobs. When I was a teenager showing was where it was at and trail riding was for sissies and stupid horses who couldn't do anything else.

Fast-forward to my mid twenties, when hubby and I started dating. The first time I went to ride lines with him (checking cows) made me appreciate just how well-trained and awesome a real ranch or trail horse needs to be - we scrambled up steep ravines, through heavy brush and downed logs, saw deer and quail and rabbits (never mind all the cows) and his gelding I was on never blinked an eye. It was a truly eye-opening experience and I will never refer to a horse as "just a trail horse" ever again. <3


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## mmshiro

QueenofFrance08 said:


> My "just a trail horse" -- Purebred Arab.


I'm starting to get interested in Arabians. I have mentioned before that I'm riding an Arabian show horse out on the trail, and while he is a bit of a basket case, it is always impressive how fast he grasps situations and gets used to them. That was most apparent on my last ride when we rode the same stretch of trail at the beginning and the end of the ride - it's like I had swapped out a little lunatic for a tourist horse. He lived with a herd for two years, and then the next five years saw him stowed away in a box with minimal turn-out, training for whatever it is they win their ribbons for to keep the prices of their horses up. He's very smart, which means that by now he's a cribber, too. Still, I love riding him, but I can just imagine having him after having grown up in a herd and having seen more of the world on a day-to-day basis. It's such a shame...but as I said, he has got me interested in Arabians.

And they are so frickin' affectionate! I once walked into the tack room where a horse was in cross ties. Naturally, I said Hi!, and she spent about two minutes sticking her nose into my face - full contact! I had never interacted with that horse before!


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## nohiogal

mmshiro said:


> I'm starting to get interested in Arabians. I have mentioned before that I'm riding an Arabian show horse out on the trail, and while he is a bit of a basket case, it is always impressive how fast he grasps situations and gets used to them.


 
This is my part bred Arabian mare. She was not a basket case but was barn sore. She catches on extremely quickly. They are so smart and eager to please. If I feel her stiffen on a new trail or something that she is shy of all I have to do is tell her she is a good girl and I can feel her relax. She is new to the trails but I have taken her off site 5 times so far this year and she is doing wonderful. I really think she enjoys it. I can tell she is learning. A new thing she crossed last time she walks right by the next. She remembers it didn't attack or bite her. She is still shy of dogs but doesn't freak out. Water crossings are becoming almost a non-issue. She likes water and loves to paw in it but new water crossing is always a bit scary for a green trail horse. We are still working on bridges. She will follow another horse with no issue but I need to get her back on a trail with bridges so I can work with her to get her to lead. I know once she does a couple she will move out a lot easier. She crosses the teeter bridge at the barn with no issues. 


At the end of the month I am taking her to a group trail lesson on an obstacle coarse, I am really looking forward to that.


When I first started riding her she was very ornery. While she had training and was in one show she was pretty green broke but I think the main issue was that she didn't have a person. The woman that owned her barely visited. She did not take her out and groom her nor spend time with her. The first time I took her out I thought "what have I gotten myself into". She was restless and didn't pay attention to me at all. She moved around so much I could barely groom her much less saddle her. She had the mean mare stare and kept kicking out her back foot. She was a mess. 


But I hung in there and continued to work with her on ground and under saddle. She tested me a LOT. I think she sat in her stall at night thinking up ways to shake me. Almost every ride there was a new issue. She would stand at the mounting block fine one day and refusing the next. She would bridle fine one day and refuse the next. She would move out fine one day and refuse the next.

We have tackled all those issues together and they are now gone.

She couldn't shake me and now she has a person and I think that makes a huge difference. She no longer appears angry at the world. Everyone at the barn cannot believe how much better she looks and how much nicer her personality is. They say she is a changed horse but it is her that has changed me. 



mmshiro said:


> And they are so frickin' affectionate!


 They really are. Before I had her she always had her ears turned back and that witchy mare stare on her whenever you approached her. Now she loves for people to pet and love on her. Even on trails when she sees people she wants to wonder over to see if they are going to give her some love. 


I never rode much less owned an Arabian before. They are a horse of a different color. She has changed my life! Her trust in me is growing as well as my trust in her. I know there are many trails we will go down together as partners.


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## QueenofFrance08

@mmshiro I have a 9 year old ex halter Arabian. I bought him when I started endurance thinking I needed an Arabian (mind you we already had Chico my current 50 mile horse but I thought he was too old and too slow at 16). He has a long sad story.... Dumped at an auction bought by a lady who sent him to a trainer and tried to make him into a kids horse (while riding him in Quarter horse tack with bits that fell out of his mouth and hurt his teeth), traded her to a friend because he was too spooky.... friend was pretty afraid of him and kept him in a small dry lot and stall. We got him and the first day I walked him down the driveway and he started jumping around and rearing because birds and snow and dirt and gravel were scaring him. He had only been ridden in an indoor arena for the past few years and was terrified of everything. It has taken us a year and a half to get him to be a decent trail horse and to be a normal horse who lives outside.


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## SilverMaple

Samoyed were not originally sled dogs. Originally they were reindeer herders and hunters of polar bear and seal, who sometimes dragged sled when their nomadic owners moved from place to place. The purposeful sledding came later when the arctic expeditions discovered that they were more adaptable to extreme cold than other sledding breeds. They are not meant as a speed dog, but an endurance dog. If you want to win the Iditarod, you use Alaskan Huskies. If you want to run a trapline with heavy loads, you use a Malamute. If you want a dog that can pull a load at a faster pace than a Malamute, you use a Samoyed. All are different for different reasons. Several all-Samoyed sled dog teams have proven their worth in distance races where endurance, not speed, are what matters. And they don't need blankets and jackets to keep from freezing to death like the Alaskans, either. 

Samoyeds often pass herding instinct tests at higher rates than traditional herding breeds, in spite of not having been bred for herding instinct for generations. Herding was the original purpose, and the breed club would like the dog classified as a herding breed, but AKC refuses. The Samoyed breed standard allows for some variation within the breed, as the original dogs had. Some were more wolf-like. Others a bit heavier. The middle-of-the-road dog was, and still is, a jack of all trades who can still do the job for which he was intended. He wasn't ever meant to be a racing dog. You can find small wolf-like dogs and heavier dogs with more coat and more bone, and both are within standard. The dogs you pictured in harness are a mostly show-champion team that also did mail runs in the Sierras and pulled downed planes out of the snowfields; the lead dog is Rex of White Way, who, when not working, was winning left and right in the show ring. Any of those dogs would do just fine in the show ring today, and the working sled teams that run Sammies also show them with success today. 

The modern working-bred Malinois has been taken to the extreme, but not all Malinois are like that--- and those that are at the pinnacle of the protection sports are not good pets. I don't consider that as what the Belgian should be, and neither do most breeders. The vast majority of Belgians of all varieties are perfectly capable of the job for which they were originally intended--- an all-around family and farm dog, herding dog, and guard dog to protect home, family, and stock with the speed and agility to herd sheep, endurance to work all day long, and the power to protect from threat if need be. Nearly any Belgian is a stellar dog for this use. I would not have any other breed as an all-around working farm dog. Head planes vary, and a dog doesn't work on his head. The dog you show as a Belgian would not have been ideal as a working farm dog-- no double coat. A pet, certainly, and the structure is not all that different from modern Belgians which, when you soak with water, look like greyhounds.

You can't compare a modern coat to a historical coat, especially on a working dog. A dog working outdoors in all weather with no grooming will not carry the same coat as a dog who is bathed and brushed out because he also comes indoors to sleep on the couch, or goes to shows or obedience trials on the weekends. There are plenty of dogs of both breeds that look virtually indistinguishable from their ancestors. The big mane and heavy coat was present on the original expedition dogs in the winter, and a modern dog out of coat looks like those same dogs when they came off the ships after crossing the equator on their way out of the arctic. There are Belgians that carry a lot of coat, and ones that don't. I had both extremes and they were littermates. The big plushy coat in the show ring photos looks quite different in the backyard on Wednesday afternoon. 

Is there some variance in breeds currently? Of course, but there was in the past, too.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

dustywyatt said:


> "******* Equitation"...lol! I'm gonna have to remember that one.
> 
> I am ashamed to admit that once upon a time I was one of those "just-a-trail-horse" snobs. When I was a teenager showing was where it was at and trail riding was for sissies and stupid horses who couldn't do anything else.
> 
> Fast-forward to my mid twenties, when hubby and I started dating. The first time I went to ride lines with him (checking cows) made me appreciate just how well-trained and awesome a real ranch or trail horse needs to be - we scrambled up steep ravines, through heavy brush and downed logs, saw deer and quail and rabbits (never mind all the cows) and his gelding I was on never blinked an eye. It was a truly eye-opening experience and I will never refer to a horse as "just a trail horse" ever again. <3



I've seen foxes, flocks of turkeys and geese, solitary tom turkeys drumming in the spring, IDk how many squirrels and rabbits, sounders of hogs, single boars, busting through the brush and crossing the trail right in front of us, deer (Saw a doe and her two spotted fawns bedded down when we rode Saturday), lost count of all the birds... You want to know how solid your horse is? Jump up a wild turkey right in front of you or a covey of quail. Ride past a ticked off coiled cottonmouth, showing you his fangs.


And then we get to the tricky footing places and water crossings and quick sand and bogs, having to dismount and drag brush out of the trail. Ranch and trail horses got it going ON.


I'm not dissing rodeo horses by saying this btw, but it was interesting, the difference in the horses and RIGs that were at a ranch rodeo our friend was having vs. the regular rodeo rigs that rolled in that night for the rodeo-rodeo.


Two different types of people, very different rigs (Half-top stock trailers pulled by farm trucks vs. shiny new slants pulled by shiny new trucks, different tack, etc), very different horses. I mean, they were all quarter horses, all were athletes, but you could tell the blue collar working horses from the regular rodeo horses.


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## Avna

SilverMaple said:


> Samoyed were not originally sled dogs. Originally they were reindeer herders and hunters of polar bear and seal, who sometimes dragged sled when their nomadic owners moved from place to place. The purposeful sledding came later when the arctic expeditions discovered that they were more adaptable to extreme cold than other sledding breeds. They are not meant as a speed dog, but an endurance dog. If you want to win the Iditarod, you use Alaskan Huskies. If you want to run a trapline with heavy loads, you use a Malamute. If you want a dog that can pull a load at a faster pace than a Malamute, you use a Samoyed. All are different for different reasons. Several all-Samoyed sled dog teams have proven their worth in distance races where endurance, not speed, are what matters. And they don't need blankets and jackets to keep from freezing to death like the Alaskans, either.
> 
> Samoyeds often pass herding instinct tests at higher rates than traditional herding breeds, in spite of not having been bred for herding instinct for generations. Herding was the original purpose, and the breed club would like the dog classified as a herding breed, but AKC refuses. The Samoyed breed standard allows for some variation within the breed, as the original dogs had. Some were more wolf-like. Others a bit heavier. The middle-of-the-road dog was, and still is, a jack of all trades who can still do the job for which he was intended. He wasn't ever meant to be a racing dog. You can find small wolf-like dogs and heavier dogs with more coat and more bone, and both are within standard. The dogs you pictured in harness are a mostly show-champion team that also did mail runs in the Sierras and pulled downed planes out of the snowfields; the lead dog is Rex of White Way, who, when not working, was winning left and right in the show ring. Any of those dogs would do just fine in the show ring today, and the working sled teams that run Sammies also show them with success today.
> 
> The modern working-bred Malinois has been taken to the extreme, but not all Malinois are like that--- and those that are at the pinnacle of the protection sports are not good pets. I don't consider that as what the Belgian should be, and neither do most breeders. The vast majority of Belgians of all varieties are perfectly capable of the job for which they were originally intended--- an all-around family and farm dog, herding dog, and guard dog to protect home, family, and stock with the speed and agility to herd sheep, endurance to work all day long, and the power to protect from threat if need be. Nearly any Belgian is a stellar dog for this use. I would not have any other breed as an all-around working farm dog. Head planes vary, and a dog doesn't work on his head. The dog you show as a Belgian would not have been ideal as a working farm dog-- no double coat. A pet, certainly, and the structure is not all that different from modern Belgians which, when you soak with water, look like greyhounds.
> 
> You can't compare a modern coat to a historical coat, especially on a working dog. A dog working outdoors in all weather with no grooming will not carry the same coat as a dog who is bathed and brushed out because he also comes indoors to sleep on the couch, or goes to shows or obedience trials on the weekends. There are plenty of dogs of both breeds that look virtually indistinguishable from their ancestors. The big mane and heavy coat was present on the original expedition dogs in the winter, and a modern dog out of coat looks like those same dogs when they came off the ships after crossing the equator on their way out of the arctic. There are Belgians that carry a lot of coat, and ones that don't. I had both extremes and they were littermates. The big plushy coat in the show ring photos looks quite different in the backyard on Wednesday afternoon.
> 
> Is there some variance in breeds currently? Of course, but there was in the past, too.


The only Samoyed I have known personally was in fact competed in arena herding trials, although I have to say he was not exceedingly good at it. He was a California dog and I never saw him not panting. They don't have California coats. 

Where reindeer are still herded in northern Scandinavia, they are herded with Border Collies. 

"Herding Instinct Tests" don't actually test anything much at all, they are a popular thing to do but have no meaning in the real world. Stockdog people consider them to be nothing more than fundraisers (lots of owners of AKC herding breeds will pay to have their dog "tested"). There are simply no AKC breeds that I know of that have enough herding instinct to be useful herding dogs except quite randomly (I knew a show-bred Bearded Collie who was awesome but she was a total fluke). Working-bred Aussies which are dual-registered with the AKC (they are all also reg with ASCA) do, mostly. Maybe show-bred Border Collies might have enough for arena trials, although the working BC people certainly have nothing but contempt for them. 

It is not true that all Huskies need coats, but some do, because they are often crossed with running dogs that don't have the nordic coat. 

And I have seen a few Tervs herd too. Not impressive, like other AKC 'traditional herding' breeds. To really be a useful herding dog it is not enough to be biddable and athletic. You also need to breed for many other specific things, like eye, group, wideness, pace, courage, patience, and above all, stock sense. Exactly like a cowhorse is a cowhorse before it hits the ground. And Tervs have not been selected for those things for many generations. However, I am not dissing Tervs at all. They are admirable all-arounder dogs indeed, and are one of a very small handful of pure breeds I would own myself.


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## dustywyatt

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Ride past a ticked off coiled cottonmouth, showing you his fangs. Ranch and trail horses got it going ON.



TRUTH. We were helping a friend gather off a BLM allotment and hubby was on my gelding. What was probably a 4 1/2' rattler was coiled up in the brush ahead of him. The two other horses around him snorted and spooked like the devil was after them. Wyatt just kinda side-eyed it and kept on going like it was nothing. He's a great desert horse.


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## SilverMaple

I'm sorry your experience with purebreds has been so negative. That has not been my experience at all. I used Belgians for herding for several years, and they do an admirable job. They are an upright breed that herd differently than a BC, but that doesn't make it wrong. Same with the Sams. If the dog gets the job done, I don't care if he herds with 'eye' or with 'presence.' 

Arena trials vs. farm type/practical herding are also vastly different, and I've learned to take what the BC die-hards say with a grain of salt. They remind me of the people who say they'd like to shoot every 'crazy worthless Ay-rab horse because they're all worthless'. You couldn't pay me to take a working-bred Border Collie as an all-around working/farm dog. They would drive me completely nuts. No thanks. Most also lack the guarding instinct I also want. That doesn't mean they're bad dogs, but they're not the dogs I want and vice versa. Different strokes for different folks does not equal 'all AKC dogs are ruined and worthless for any sort of job" any more than it means all race-bred TB's are unsuitable for anything but the track or all Arabians are spooky, flightly nutballs.

I'd rather judge the animal in front of me than where he came from.


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## bsms

Concerning trail horses...this is from a description of today's ride. Please note my wife was riding a horse for the second time in 2019, and her horse Trooper was being ridden for the second time in 2019:



bsms said:


> ...When we reached this point, Bandit became concerned. You cannot see it, but 200 yards ahead is a road where semi-trucks run and traffic goes 60+ mph. I figured he was concerned about the noise of the unseen traffic and urged him forward.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Moments after the above picture, Bandit did a 180 and tried to beat a retreat. He hadn't done that in over a year. Happily, it ops checked the idea that the Poppa Bear stirrup position and a relaxed but engaged leg would handle things. Now I know. Took the slack out of the reins and stopped him before getting to Trooper, then turned him back 180. "_This will profit you not._" We advanced to this point, cautiously:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bandit balked. "_WE SHALL NOT PASS!_" - in his best Gandalf voice. My wife, behind me, said Trooper was concerned. We waited. I took the picture. And (of course) about a half second later, the largest javelina I've seen darted across the wash 50 feet ahead of us! Wiki says they top out at 100 lbs, so I guess it WASN'T 200 lbs. Just looked like it to me! Wiki picture:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​Good Bandit! Sensible Bandit! We waited to see if any others crossed, but it was a single javelina. We then moved forward and Bandit trotted past the crossing point. He was a bit put out, I think - maybe "Stupid Bob! Foolish Bob!" - and so my wife, on her second ride in a year, took the lead on Trooper on his second ride since December.
> 
> We turned out of the wash, which crosses the road ahead, and started to pick our way across the desert. Sometimes my wife led. When she would dead end, she'd let me know and Bandit & I would take the lead. When we would dead end, she would take it. Lots of cactus and brush and it was hard to pick our way through.
> 
> I still think she looked very natural on Trooper:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When Bandit & I led, Bandit was as involved in picking a route as I was:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you look closely, you can see a ton of cactus here. We finally hit a spot where there was brush with dead branches above his belly in a line ahead, but then more open terrain if we could get through:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I told Bandit it wasn't going to get better until we pushed through. At one time, Bandit would refuse to go through brush. But he has more experience, so he looked, saw the clearing ahead [Hard to see in the picture, but about 1 o'clock from Bandit's nose on the other side of the brush], and then HE pushed through. I recommended. His decision to accept it. And Trooper followed close behind so Bandit would take the brunt of the poking brush...
> 
> ...You don't teach a good trail horse to obey. You teach him to think, and to take responsibility for the ride. To trust you, but not totally. Bandit was just a bundle of good sense and willingness today, in the right amounts of each.
> 
> NOT some darn plodding beast, obeying blindly. A thinking, actively engaged horse working as part of the team.


Notice Bandit's ears. He is soooo NOT a plodding beast of burden! And my wife really doesn't have the experience. She was counting on Trooper, who stepped up and hit the ball out of the park. He made HER confident. He took care of her. 21 year old former sheep ranch horse. Both horses were alert without being spooky. There was a time Bandit would explode and fight. Now he just strongly warns, or tells me where to stuff it. He makes ME confident. Neither horse would pass a basic equitation class. I doubt either of their riders would. But a good trail horse can make things work.


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## Avna

SilverMaple said:


> I'm sorry your experience with purebreds has been so negative. That has not been my experience at all. I used Belgians for herding for several years, and they do an admirable job. They are an upright breed that herd differently than a BC, but that doesn't make it wrong. Same with the Sams. If the dog gets the job done, I don't care if he herds with 'eye' or with 'presence.'
> 
> Arena trials vs. farm type/practical herding are also vastly different, and I've learned to take what the BC die-hards say with a grain of salt. They remind me of the people who say they'd like to shoot every 'crazy worthless Ay-rab horse because they're all worthless'. You couldn't pay me to take a working-bred Border Collie as an all-around working/farm dog. They would drive me completely nuts. No thanks. Most also lack the guarding instinct I also want. That doesn't mean they're bad dogs, but they're not the dogs I want and vice versa. Different strokes for different folks does not equal 'all AKC dogs are ruined and worthless for any sort of job" any more than it means all race-bred TB's are unsuitable for anything but the track or all Arabians are spooky, flightly nutballs.
> 
> I'd rather judge the animal in front of me than where he came from.


I agree that BC's normally make frustrating small-farm dogs.

I wasted fifteen years defending working-bred Aussies' talents, attacked on both sides, the Versatility Aussie people on one hand and the Border Collie people on the other. And it really fried me. But here I am again! What is the matter with me? know every argument on every side, God knows. I have trialed in AKC and ASCA and AHBA. I have watched many different breeds work and attempt to work livestock. I have worked on a sheep ranch. My dogs have herded everything from baby chicks to cattle. And I am really done with it. Mostly because, just like everything else, people prefer what they prefer, and believe what they want to believe, and that's the long and short of it. 

I have a clever little working-bred Aussie who helps with the chickens and goes trail riding with me, and two retired ones who are both pretty deaf and doddering now. When all of them are gone I don't even know if I will get another dog. I am surprisingly bitter and tired after all that enormous focus and effort. 

I like riding my horse in the forest, with no agenda other than seeing what is behind that next bend. I just have a trail horse. She's pretty good. Good enough anyway.


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## mmshiro

bsms said:


> Concerning trail horses...


 @Avna has a thread re: _Things to be grateful for_. I wish to add: The wildlife in New England. :rofl:

Yep, also looking at you, Aussies!!


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## bsms

Avna said:


> ...I wasted fifteen years defending working-bred Aussies' talents, attacked on both sides, the Versatility Aussie people on one hand and the Border Collie people on the other. And it really fried me...
> 
> I like riding my horse in the forest, with no agenda other than seeing what is behind that next bend. I just have a trail horse. She's pretty good. Good enough anyway.


Happy horse. Happy rider. Why is anything else required?

I had a friend with a working Aussie back in 1980. Amazing dog. Nothing like what the average Aussie looks or acts like now, after years of AKC & sports dog ruining. The few working Aussie breeders I've talked to in the last 10 years only sell dogs to ranches. I don't blame them. They are few and far between and have to be disgusted by what has been done to a wonderful breed. I'm more a Border Collie kind of guy, but my friend with 3000 sheep prefers "just a herd dog", so to speak...doesn't care about breed, but about the parents. The AKC doesn't understand this:


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## Avna

This morning. Went out about five miles to see if the snowmobilers had cleared that giant tree across the steep ravine that blocked one of the biggest loop trails last year. They had.

Nothing really phased Brooke this trip except my husband drilling a giant slab of granite, when we got back. She is better with bears than loud machinery. I guess I am too.


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## AndyTheCornbread

I love my lab of course but my favorite dog of all time will always be working ACDs. I love the breed, so smart, so loyal, great guard dogs, and they have the life attitude of "_any difficult problem can usually be solved with my teeth_" 

e.g. "_UPS driver is a nuisance, bite him_", or "_2,000lb bull won't leave the brush and get back on trail, bite him_" or "_cougar stealing meat off the game pole, bite it_" and the list goes on and on and on. 

I wish US breeders would QUIT DOCKING THEIR TAILS!!!! 

Mine has a docked tail because the breeder didn't listen to me when I said I wanted my puppy undocked, raaaaah!!! 

Makes me so mad sometimes when I think about it. Another case of a breed being altered for no good reason other than looks. 

ACDs make great trail dogs for horseback riding so long as you train them early not to mess with the horses.


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## evilamc

AndyTheCornbread said:


> I wish US breeders would QUIT DOCKING THEIR TAILS!!!!
> 
> Mine has a docked tail because the breeder didn't listen to me when I said I wanted my puppy undocked, raaaaah!!!
> 
> Makes me so mad sometimes when I think about it. Another case of a breed being altered for no good reason other than looks.


Actually some people dock tails on farm dogs to help keep them from getting caught/grabbed by things. I agree, I prefer undocked BUT there are cases when it is beneficial to the dog.


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## AndyTheCornbread

Grabbed by what? Dogs use their tail for balance especially when cutting/herding animals. When is it beneficial to dock an ACD's tail? My family has been ranching and farming with ACDs since before I could walk, I still haven't seen a single time having their tail docked was any kind of useful to the dog.


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## Avna

evilamc said:


> Actually some people dock tails on farm dogs to help keep them from getting caught/grabbed by things. I agree, I prefer undocked BUT there are cases when it is beneficial to the dog.


That's an excuse not a legitimate reason. Only real reason is to visually identify a breed or line of dogs. 

Fact is, the large majority of working herding dogs on cattle and sheep are BC's or Kelpies and wouldn't they have docked tails if that was a real thing? But they don't.

Cow dogs get banged up plenty but mostly they get run over or kicked not grabbed or caught.


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## Avna

AndyTheCornbread said:


> I love my lab of course but my favorite dog of all time will always be working ACDs. I love the breed, so smart, so loyal, great guard dogs, and they have the life attitude of "_any difficult problem can usually be solved with my teeth_"
> 
> e.g. "_UPS driver is a nuisance, bite him_", or "_2,000lb bull won't leave the brush and get back on trail, bite him_" or "_cougar stealing meat off the game pole, bite it_" and the list goes on and on and on.
> .


Takes one to know one .... :mrgreen:

I once talked to a guy who used them on his cattle ranch and he told me "every morning you gotta pee higher up the pole than your dog."


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## trailhorserider

walkinthewalk said:


> If I were younger, therefore still able to ride because my injuries wouldn't have caught to me yet, I am pretty sure I would go back to my Arab/crosses.
> 
> This guy was Arab/Saddlebred. He was five in this pic and not even saddle broke. I was 18 (1965) and just graduated high school. His hooves had hit the ground on my parents farm so I trained him with my granddad's help
> 
> He went on his last 30 mile organized ride when he was 27. It was not a timed ride but he finished well ahead of a few QH's whose owners had mocked him at the beginning of the ride
> 
> He was tough as nails and so was his Arab/Morgan buddy who was also on that ride and finished right alongside. -- he was 25
> 
> This fella was with me from his birth until I laid him to rest with cancer at age 29. He was a huge motored horse - much more "go" than the average trail rider wants but he did not have an ounce buck, kick, rear or bite in him.
> View attachment 994693



Oh wow, he was gorgeous! I like a big motor as long as they are safe. I find a forward trail horse a lot of fun! :smile:


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## evilamc

Lol I dunno! I’d just had a few customers that have had to dock their dogs tails. One got caught in machinery, one I guess another animal grabbed it? So I just assume some people do it for those reasons. Oh and one did because their dog kept wagging it’s tail so hard into things it broke it multiple times!

So maybe it’s just because poor training on owners part? I don’t like the look of it personally.


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## SilverMaple

Some traditionally-docked breeds have fragile tails. We have a neighbor with German Shorthair Pointers, and the dog with the undocked tail has wagged his tail into a bloody mess on more than one occasion-- when he goes in for his neuter in a few weeks, they are going to have the tail docked at the same time, as they're tired of blood all over their house, and the dog in a cone to keep him from chewing his painful tail. The lady across the street has an undocked Cocker Spaniel, and he looks ridiculous and is always hurting that long, weak tail. 

Some breeds like Greyhounds have a higher-than usual incidence of tail issues, too. We fostered one for a few months after her tail was surgically docked after she broke it in multiple places. The popular cross of Border Collie x Labrador when I was in Montana was generally docked to distinguish them from regular Labs, as most just resembled leggier, lighter Labradors, but they had herding instinct. I ended up with one puppy that I saw thrown from a moving pickup going down the road-- he was a great dog for my parents. When I pulled him out of the ditch with a broken leg at 7 weeks old, his tail had already been docked but dewclaws weren't. We had to have those removed when he was neutered as he kept catching and tearing them.

Some dogs do use the dewclaws and some breed standards require them, but if they are loose and catch on things rather than remaining tight to the leg, the dog is better off without them. 

I guess docking is one of those things that I'm not going to get too bent-out-of-shape about provided it is done by someone knowledgeable when the pups are only a few days old and hardly notice. We'd do dewclaws and tails regularly for litters at the vet clinic and most puppies didn't even cry out, and went back to feeding and sleeping right away, but it MUST be done early-- 3 days is really the limit for doing it humanely. People who dock and crop later (I'm looking at you, pitbull folks) have no business doing it, and at that point it's cruel.


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## walkinthewalk

My previous three Rottwilers (I lost all of them to cancer) all had their tails docked.

The Rottweiler that was recently rehomed to me, did not have her tail docked. Dew claws were done thankfully but that massive tail is strikingly handsome even if the dog is a female, lol. 

It is my understanding Germany has banned tail docking as the necessity for it has long since faded away -- Rottweilers were herding dogs before they were guard dogs.

She is exceptionally graceful with her tail and she is not a hard wagger, more like a swisher

This pic was last December on her arrival day on our farm. I can't believe I don't have better pictures of her tail.

I gotta say, she is a strikingly beautiful dog -- even the the vet was impressed with her.


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## Celeste

I am a (semi-retired) veterinarian. I used to dock tails on 3 day old puppies because I had to in order to keep my job. Regardless of who says what, it is not humane. They probably don't remember it later. But they scream bloody murder when you do it. 

Before I took my most recent job, I told the veterinarian in charge that I would not dock tails, crop ears, or euthanize healthy pets for the convenience of their owners. She said that was great because it was also their policy. 

I know that people argue on every side about these issues. I argue on the side of wanting to sleep at night.


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## VVolpe

I will never appreciate enough a good trail horse. 

Especially after my difficult adventures with my mare (who has difficulties in going out solo) I truly understand how clever, brave, confident and strong trail horses are. 

I think that a horse might be the best horse in working in a protected environment like an arena, but if then they get scared of every single moving thing outside, then you cannot actually really enjoy the time with them and relax together. 

I hope to get there soon with my mare


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## Avna

Was thinking what a "real world" trail trial would look like ... note it is also a test of the rider, as is so often the case in real life.


* guy in a bear costume walks across arena in front of horse (this actually happened to me yesterday except I was five miles from anywhere and it wasn't a costume. My horse stopped dead, stared hard, bear continued on its way and then so did we)
* motorcyclist appears from behind a screen and guns engine as he goes past horse
* branch situated so rider must cling to side of horse in order to pass under it
* slide down cliff into shallow water full of round rocks
* gate with rusty latch at about stirrup height, must be dragged open and closed, cannot let go of latch
* jump over log from a walk
* trot down hill 
* must pass between two narrowly spaced upright poles such that the rider's knee does not touch either one
* stand on a loose rein to be mounted from the ground while other horses walk or jog by


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## AtokaGhosthorse

Avna said:


> Was thinking what a "real world" trail trial would look like ... note it is also a test of the rider, as is so often the case in real life.
> 
> 
> * guy in a bear costume walks across arena in front of horse (this actually happened to me yesterday except I was five miles from anywhere and it wasn't a costume. My horse stopped dead, stared hard, bear continued on its way and then so did we)
> * motorcyclist appears from behind a screen and guns engine as he goes past horse
> * branch situated so rider must cling to side of horse in order to pass under it
> * slide down cliff into shallow water full of round rocks
> * gate with rusty latch at about stirrup height, must be dragged open and closed, cannot let go of latch
> * jump over log from a walk
> * trot down hill
> * must pass between two narrowly spaced upright poles such that the rider's knee does not touch either one
> * stand on a loose rein to be mounted from the ground while other horses walk or jog by



You forgot some guy on a mountain bike doing jumps and pedaling faster when he sees you. Can be coming in from behind or in front, it's a random selection.


Traffic on road near a trail bend can see riders, and think it's cute to rack off pipes, blow a train horn, or otherwise scream and yell in an attempt to spook horse.


And my favorite: Surprise tree down across the course that wasn't there previously. Tree must have lots of brushy limbs, be large enough you can't move it, tall enough it covers any convenient route around it. Bonus points if horse goes through a stand of sumac, green briars, or scrub oak. Alternatively, the trunk can be jumped.

Bonus Points: Being okay with being mounted from the right side in the event of a necessary dismount to rescue ball cap that got snatched off while being forced to brush pop, and there isn't room on the left side for the rider to mount.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

About tail docking:


I don't think people do it are monsters. However. With our heeler pups, we never dock tails. The dogs were bred to have a long sweeping tail for a reason. It's like a Cheetah's tail - a counterbalance to help them make quick, agile turns. We lost our beloved LuLu to a school bus, but it was a delight to watch her work cattle. That tail was definitely an asset to her.


Bo, OTOH, is an Aussie Shepherd and he was born with a natural stubbie. Maggie's was docked.


There's a good chance we'll have some natural bob-tailed pups out of a litter between the two.


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## Avna

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> You forgot some guy on a mountain bike doing jumps and pedaling faster when he sees you. Can be coming in from behind or in front, it's a random selection.
> 
> 
> Traffic on road near a trail bend can see riders, and think it's cute to rack off pipes, blow a train horn, or otherwise scream and yell in an attempt to spook horse.
> 
> 
> And my favorite: Surprise tree down across the course that wasn't there previously. Tree must have lots of brushy limbs, be large enough you can't move it, tall enough it covers any convenient route around it. Bonus points if horse goes through a stand of sumac, green briars, or scrub oak. Alternatively, the trunk can be jumped.
> 
> Bonus Points: Being okay with being mounted from the right side in the event of a necessary dismount to rescue ball cap that got snatched off while being forced to brush pop, and there isn't room on the left side for the rider to mount.


I like all of these! Except riders should be wearing helmets not ball caps. Mine is ever so handy at keeping me from being scalped or slashed in the face by brushy trees (I added a big stiff brim). Not to mention the falling off on your head thing. 



The downed trees are all too common around here. Brooke has become used to figuring a way around and through without a pause, since she got to the Big Woods.


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## SilverMaple

We'd carry a pocket saw (basically a chain saw blade rolled up in a tin with handles at each end) and a small ax when riding in NW Montana. Sometimes brush was so thick there was no way around a downed tree, and when that's the case, you cut a way through. It's also good courtesy on a known trail to clear it for later users. Sometimes it was small enough to loop with an old lariat rope and drag to the side--- that's also something that needs to be trained. Even some good rope horses will booger when you dally off to a pine tree and all the branches move when he does. Most get over it pretty quick and dig in and pull. 

The die-hard guys would pack a chainsaw on their packhorse. They cleared trails a lot faster than us recreational riders.

Real-world trail challenge should also include walking a narrow trail with water running down it simulating a deluge

Horse willingly allowing the rider to don a slicker, raincoat, or trash bag flapping in the wind with aplomb

Horse tolerating annoying heel-biting herding dogs people seem to always bring along on rides, even if the dog is a menace and untrained.

Riding double in case someone is injured.

Allowing a shoe to be reset on the side of a shale slide

Remaining calm while a helicopter lands and takes off close by, simulating a real-world emergency wilderness rescue

Horse should load into any relatively-safe conveyance even at night in a hailstorm with three horses he's never met before, and stand quietly once loaded.

Horse tolerates a saddle slipping onto his neck or down around his side without dumping the rider

Horse can pony another animal with aplomb and leads up well when ponied so the leading rider's arm is not wrenched from the socket

Horse tolerates mules. You'd be surprised at the ones that blow up the first time they see or hear one...especially if said mule is wearing a pack

In states where hunting/packing with horses is common, horse should demonstrate that he can pack a dead elk without blowing up, as well as rattly panniers filled with empty beer cans, tin plates, and rocks for ballast.

Horse tolerates a grouse flying up under his nose and whacking him in the chin, or getting stuck under his tail. (Had that happen, little mare got real low to the ground there for a bit, but did not move while I slithered off and released the bird...)


----------



## AtokaGhosthorse

Avna said:


> I like all of these! Except *riders should be wearing helmets not ball caps*. Mine is ever so handy at keeping me from being scalped or slashed in the face by brushy trees (I added a big stiff brim). Not to mention the falling off on your head thing.
> 
> *The downed trees are all too common around here.* Brooke has become used to figuring a way around and through without a pause, since she got to the Big Woods.



Well, Y'know. To each their own.

Every. time. we. ride. Every time. There will be a tree down that wasn't down the week before, the month before, or even that morning. Those kinda wig out the horses if the root ball is facing us - they look like dark blobs of bear or hog, lurking around the edges of the trail to snatch away any unsuspecting ponies... so we do a lot of approach and retreat, a lot of sniffing and then onwards we go.... all the while being wary it could still transmogrify at any second into a nasty predator. 

Across the trail? Mr. Trigger just chugs right along, finds us a way around and on we go. Only one time did we encounter one that caused a problem. It came down during the night, the left of the trail was a bog that holds water almost year around and full of old timber, and probably snakes. To the right was the creek that flows out of the bog area, and it's also boggy looking. The top of the tree was the part across the trail itself and was tall enough it was going to be hard to get around it on the right.

Some folks with mules had taken the way through the creek on the right. I figure if mules could do it, Mr. Trigger and I sure enough could.

NOPE. He tried to tell me no, repeatedly, this gone suck mom! We went anyway. He bogs to the knees, we flounder around, he has to truck through the green briars, clothes lines me on the way out, I nearly got dragged out of the saddle...we make it back onto the trail right where we stepped off... and he's facing the way we came, very upset with me, shaking, buck snorting, jiggling his head, but standing still, facing my friend and her nutty barrel horse.

Friend starts laughing: WOO he is ticked off at you for making him try!

I had to get out of the saddle, kicked as many limbs off the part across the trail as I could, some were still too green to snap, then I had to stand on them to hold them down while Friend ponies Trigger across and he could barely step over it it was so high off the ground.

That's the day I learned to mount from the right because there was NO solid ground on the left and I'd have had to try to mount from standing in a muddy hole in the ground. Right side was dry-ish and the high side. It wasn't pretty, but it wasn't ugly either. And Trigger, for all his high state of emotions, did just fine with it.

I wouldn't take for my Just an ol' Trail Horse.


EDIT: I had just bought a NICE camp ax with a sheath and y'know. Maybe I should have tied it to my saddle that day. I've yet to do it, but as many times as we've had the need for one, maybe I should!


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## dustywyatt

Had a whole post typed up, accidentally bumped the backspace button and lost it all. *wails* 


I'll redo and post once I'm done sulking lol.


----------



## dustywyatt

Avna said:


> Was thinking what a "real world" trail trial would look like ... note it is also a test of the rider, as is so often the case in real life.
> 
> * guy in a bear costume walks across arena in front of horse (this actually happened to me yesterday except I was five miles from anywhere and it wasn't a costume. My horse stopped dead, stared hard, bear continued on its way and then so did we)
> * motorcyclist appears from behind a screen and guns engine as he goes past horse
> * branch situated so rider must cling to side of horse in order to pass under it
> * slide down cliff into shallow water full of round rocks
> * gate with rusty latch at about stirrup height, must be dragged open and closed, cannot let go of latch
> * jump over log from a walk
> * trot down hill
> * must pass between two narrowly spaced upright poles such that the rider's knee does not touch either one
> * stand on a loose rein to be mounted from the ground while other horses walk or jog by


 
I would totally ride in a class like this. 






AtokaGhosthorse said:


> You forgot some guy on a mountain bike doing jumps and pedaling faster when he sees you. Can be coming in from behind or in front, it's a random selection..


 
Or hikers with big packs! We came across some backpackers one time. Wyatt handles most trail obstacles with no cares but he was CONVINCED that hikers eat horseflesh. I had the first hiker talk to him so he knew she was an actual human and he settled right down.



AtokaGhosthorse said:


> And my favorite: Surprise tree down across the course that wasn't there previously. Tree must have lots of brushy limbs, be large enough you can't move it, tall enough it covers any convenient route around it. Bonus points if horse goes through a stand of sumac, green briars, or scrub oak. Alternatively, the trunk can be jumped...


ALWAYS. *headdesk* Last time it was a GIANT old Ponderosa. Too big to jump, no room on the left to go around the root ball, steep brushy downhill slope to the right. Tons of trees (standing and fallen), giant rocks, and saddle-high manzanita. FIL and his giant do-all-the-things gelding broke trail for the rest of us, and we made it down and around and back up again with minimal trouble. My poor fat stubby-legged pony thought I was trying to kill him though. 





SilverMaple said:


> We'd carry a pocket saw (basically a chain saw blade rolled up in a tin with handles at each end) and a small ax when riding in NW Montana. Sometimes brush was so thick there was no way around a downed tree, and when that's the case, you cut a way through. It's also good courtesy on a known trail to clear it for later users. Sometimes it was small enough to loop with an old lariat rope and drag to the side--- that's also something that needs to be trained. Even some good rope horses will booger when you dally off to a pine tree and all the branches move when he does. Most get over it pretty quick and dig in and pull.


 
We always have at least one rope with us, but the saw is a good idea!




SilverMaple said:


> Horse tolerates a grouse flying up under his nose and whacking him in the chin, or getting stuck under his tail. (Had that happen, little mare got real low to the ground there for a bit, but did not move while I slithered off and released the bird...)


 
*dies laughing*


What a good girl! Of all the things that could happen, lol. That is HILARIOUS...more so in hindsight I'm sure.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

SilverMaple said:


> We'd carry a pocket saw (basically a chain saw blade rolled up in a tin with handles at each end) and a small ax when riding in NW Montana. Sometimes brush was so thick there was no way around a downed tree, and when that's the case, you cut a way through. It's also good courtesy on a known trail to clear it for later users. Sometimes it was small enough to loop with an old lariat rope and drag to the side--- that's also something that needs to be trained. Even some good rope horses will booger when you dally off to a pine tree and all the branches move when he does. Most get over it pretty quick and dig in and pull.
> 
> The die-hard guys would pack a chainsaw on their packhorse. They cleared trails a lot faster than us recreational riders.
> 
> Real-world trail challenge should also include walking a narrow trail with water running down it simulating a deluge
> 
> Horse willingly allowing the rider to don a slicker, raincoat, or trash bag flapping in the wind with aplomb
> 
> Horse tolerating annoying heel-biting herding dogs people seem to always bring along on rides, even if the dog is a menace and untrained.
> 
> Riding double in case someone is injured.
> 
> Allowing a shoe to be reset on the side of a shale slide
> 
> *Remaining calm while a helicopter lands and takes off close by, simulating a real-world emergency wilderness rescue*
> 
> Horse should load into any relatively-safe conveyance even at night in a hailstorm with three horses he's never met before, and stand quietly once loaded.
> 
> Horse tolerates a saddle slipping onto his neck or down around his side without dumping the rider
> 
> Horse can pony another animal with aplomb and leads up well when ponied so the leading rider's arm is not wrenched from the socket
> 
> Horse tolerates mules. You'd be surprised at the ones that blow up the first time they see or hear one...especially if said mule is wearing a pack
> 
> In states where hunting/packing with horses is common, horse should demonstrate that he can pack a dead elk without blowing up, as well as rattly panniers filled with empty beer cans, tin plates, and rocks for ballast.
> 
> Horse tolerates a grouse flying up under his nose and whacking him in the chin, or getting stuck under his tail. (Had that happen, little mare got real low to the ground there for a bit, but did not move while I slithered off and released the bird...)



In Texas and Oklahoma, those choppers are more likely hog hunters... and will be firing off AR-15s! Had one swoop in LOW over camp the last time... trees whipping around, the whole enchilada... buzzed off... 2 minutes later, I could still hear it, but then the shoosting started!


(Shoosting... From Austin Powers, Goldmember)


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## Woodhaven

Silvemaple, a horse that meets all your qualities would be a wonderful animal indeed and I would love to have such a horse, they should build monuments to horses like that.


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## SilverMaple

dustywyatt said:


> *dies laughing*
> 
> 
> What a good girl! Of all the things that could happen, lol. That is HILARIOUS...more so in hindsight I'm sure.



She only had about 10 rides on her at that point too...


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## SilverMaple

Woodhaven said:


> Silvemaple, a horse that meets all your qualities would be a wonderful animal indeed and I would love to have such a horse, they should build monuments to horses like that.


When you find one, you keep it! I've had two... still looking for another one. Lost one to old age, and sold the little mare in the grouse incident who was just such a horse when I needed the money and had nowhere to keep her, and I really, really regret that.


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## Aprilswissmiss

What a great post - I definitely needed to hear this from someone other than myself.

Sometimes I certainly do feel like I might be missing out on something neat, since I own such a beautiful horse with such beautiful gaits who jumps anything - but would never, ever be collected enough in an arena to be a show horse. It's just never going to happen, and that's alright, because then I remember all the things she has done/can do that a lot of show horses would never even fathom.

She will go all day - hours and hours - without showing the slightest bit of fatigue or complaint, whether walking, trotting, cantering...

The other day, while on a ride, we saw a plastic bag blowing around in a field. Without my prompting, my mare approached it and played with it. What a great toy, she thought! and then walked on.

Just a few minutes later, a HUGE groundhog came shooting practically out from under her feet while we were in waist-high grass beside a treeline. My mare had a little startle, but didn't move her feet and watched it go running out into the woods, then walked right on. Same thing for turkeys, squirrels, chipmunks, the like.

She has trekked both up and down very steep, sandy mine-like hillsides with plenty of loose rocks and has never once lost her footing.

She crossed scary creaky narrow wooden foot bridges for the first time in her life and barely hesitated to get on, and was in no rush to leap off.

She got loose wire wrapped around her back leg once during a ride (that's how we discovered the cornfield fence is broken) and took a few sidesteps and had quietly stepped out of it before I even could tell what had happened. No injury to myself, herself, or the fence (any more than it already was).

Her previous owner wasn't very keen on keeping dangerous stuff out of her pasture - ladders, coils of wire, screws sticking out of the stable walls, etc. Never once hurt herself on anything, but also wasn't afraid of it.

She follows me wherever and stands perfectly still for grooming/tacking without so much as a halter on.

And these are all things she's done with very minimal training or trail hours. All I can think is just, what a _great_ horse. Yeah, my friends have their warmblood hunters and TB eventers, but not a single one of them would do what my mare does! Meanwhile she's getting a fraction of the feed and no supplements as compared to the show horses, and overall seems in much better regular health than them. Incredibly naturally intelligent and highly aware, but not high strung. Has never needed shoes - hooves are solid as rock, and needs very minimal farrier work. Really, what a _great_ horse.


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## NightFell

Funnily enough, my mare was one of those "fancy trained horse athletes" but couldn't cut the grade. She was a western pleasure show horse burn-out in Florida and ended up being moved around to 4 different owners before I picked her up at an feedlot auction in NJ and gave her a new job as my distance/endurance partner. It was definitely a risk taking her on as my first horse but she was exactly what I needed as a young, ambitious rider. She's taught me so much and more about horsemanship, ownership, and just how important it is to listen to your horse. 

All those trail miles have helped her become an even better horse overall. I love how versatile she is too- got the fire to motor down miles of trails solo leaving all of our riding companions in the dust but also knows when to quietly pack me and my 2yo nephew riding bareback around the indoor arena and pastures. Wouldn't give her up for anything.


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## CopperLove

SilverMaple said:


> Horse tolerating annoying heel-biting herding dogs people seem to always bring along on rides, even if the dog is a menace and untrained.


THIS. Mercy. The heeler that has always observed and gone with us for the months I've been with the family I board/train with, for whatever reason, has suddenly decided within the last couple of trips that it's a good idea to "herd" the horses with riders in the saddles. I think the puppy they kept from the last litter is starting to grow up and test its limits and be a bit annoying (as any puppy is, kind of a "teenager" phase) and I think that is affecting the behavior of the adult. He used to be so good about just traveling with us and not bothering anything. But, the horses are definitely used to him and I think it's helped in other situations... on the road from and back to home if we go off the ranch property, we have to pass a trailer where what feels like A MILLION yapping dogs live... all turned out loose, all hound-mixes... sometimes none are around but sometimes it could be 5 or 6 at a time that run out in the road to bray at and menace us. I think they are a bit intimidated by the horses though and don't usually come up on our heels. I've often wondered what anyone would want with SO MANY hound crosses that they aren't doing anything with, no hunting, etc. And their owners can't call them off even when they care to try. To each their own... I love animals but I've never hated a group of dogs so much in my life.



AtokaGhosthorse said:


> ... clothes lines me on the way out, I nearly got dragged out of the saddle...


It JUST finally clicked with me this last ride that... yeah you need to not lean forward, but it's ok sometimes to bend to duck something on the trail. This realization didn't come before I let myself get swarped in the face with a tree-branch at a water-crossing :lol: When I let go with one hand to fight the tree off, Dreama realized she didn't have guidance anymore and the human on her back was struggling, turned mid-creek to head back to our companions. Still got turned around and went through the water fine. Then we got to a point I had to practically lay down over her neck to fit under a tree across the trail and realized... yeah, you could have ducked that branch instead of looking so dumb :rofl:


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## AtokaGhosthorse

CopperLove said:


> It JUST finally clicked with me this last ride that... yeah you need to not lean forward, but it's ok sometimes to bend to duck something on the trail. This realization didn't come before I let myself get swarped in the face with a tree-branch at a water-crossing :lol: When I let go with one hand to fight the tree off, Dreama realized she didn't have guidance anymore and the human on her back was struggling, turned mid-creek to head back to our companions. Still got turned around and went through the water fine. Then we got to a point I had to practically lay down over her neck to fit under a tree across the trail and realized... yeah, you could have ducked that branch instead of looking so dumb :rofl:



Wait till you aren't paying attention one day and you get carried up under a blackjack oak limb... and it hangs up under your boobs... and you lose the reins because you're fighting the limb with both hands... Horse keeps chugging along, limb keeps bending and bending with you hung up on it, then has that... longbow pulled to full draw... then released... type energy and it sweeps you outta da saddle backwards. 

I knew when I felt the hair on Trigger's rump touching the back of my neck (I was leaning back that far to try to get that stupid limb up and over my bewbs) that it was all over. I landed like a sack of potatoes on my butt and hip... prescription sunglasses are... missing... bad words were said... Trigger is already back on the trail and hiding behind Son and Supes, his head jiggling like: SHE'S GONNAE BEA' MEH! HALP!

That's still one of the kids' favorite Stupid Stuff Mom/Misty (I don't mind telling my first name here) Does on a Horse stories.


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## SilverMaple

A friend of mine who is, uh, well endowed on her upper half got her bra hung up on a branch trail riding. There she hung on the branch, bobbing up and down about 4 feet off the ground as her horse walked out from underneath her... And we could not figure out how to get her down without cutting her bra, which she refused to let us do because she'd just paid $120 for the thing... 

We ended up walking her mare back underneath her, she stood up on the saddle a bit, and we were able to get the branch unsnagged.

I'm not sure which of us laughed harder--- her or the rest of us. We were sworn on pain of death to take no photos, so I don't have one, but dang... that was one industrial-strength bra.

Kudos to three good trail horses who were unfazed by the initial ruckus, laughter ensuing, person hanging in midair, or three of us with our horses sandwiched side by side trying to get her unhooked without wetting ourselves.

More than one gal has hooked the saddle horn with her bra and been stuck half-on, half-off, too. Training one's horse not to blow a cork if this happens is a good thing. I've had it happen with a coat, too. Now I train my colts to accept me hanging off the horn and flailing around!


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## AtokaGhosthorse

SilverMaple said:


> A friend of mine who is, uh, well endowed on her upper half got her bra hung up on a branch trail riding. There she hung on the branch, bobbing up and down about 4 feet off the ground as her horse walked out from underneath her... And we could not figure out how to get her down without cutting her bra, which she refused to let us do because she'd just paid $120 for the thing...
> 
> 
> 
> We ended up walking her mare back underneath her, she stood up on the saddle a bit, and we were able to get the branch unsnagged.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure which of us laughed harder--- her or the rest of us. We were sworn on pain of death to take no photos, so I don't have one, but dang... that was one industrial-strength bra.



Well. That's a twist on the old West hanging scene where the guy is in the saddle, rope around his neck and they just... leave him there... and the horse starts to walk off. I think that's the opening scene of Maverick with Mel Gibson if I remember correct.


Y'know. The first time I rode Coffee Mill in Texas - last September? I think it was... our first ride through, we don't see a soul on the trails. We had the equestrian campgrounds and trails to ourselves that weekend...


Second ride through that evening? There's a new white bra hanging out of a tree about 20 feet off the ground... NO WAY we missed that the first ride through. NO idea how it got there or who had been on the trails to fling it up there.


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## CopperLove

@AtokaGhosthorse :rofl: I think given a similar situation Dreama would definitely keep on going too... I haven't hit the ground yet but I could see it happening.


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## Woodhaven

I got "strung up" once altho not by my bra but by the neck. I went out to some woods to do some trail clearing, the mare I had then was not good to stand quietly when I first got her so I got off and was lopping and cutting along the trail, then after it cleared up a bit I got back on and rode on. the trail ended by the edge of a field and lots of brush/branches in the way but I thought the mare could push through so ahead we went and a vine caught me around the neck and I was pulled out of the saddle, hanging by my neck with really just my feet still on the horse. 
I didn't want to let my feet off the saddle as I was afraid I would be hanging by the neck. the mare stopped and stood quietly ( a miracle) and then she kind of turned and came back under me. I got the vine off my neck and then hugged her and told her what a good horse she is. As it tuned out if I had come off her the vine would have sagged enough for me to reach the ground but I didn't know that at the time.

It seems every time I read an interesting story here






I think back and recall something that for the most part I have forgotten about. Lots of interesting stories here and I like reading them.

The mare did learn to stand better after a bit.


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## dustywyatt

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Wait till you aren't paying attention one day and you get carried up under a blackjack oak limb... and it hangs up under your boobs... and you lose the reins because you're fighting the limb with both hands... Horse keeps chugging along, limb keeps bending and bending with you hung up on it, then has that... longbow pulled to full draw... then released... type energy and it sweeps you outta da saddle backwards.



Been there, done that! Right into the water. No injuries fortunately! Aside from my pride anyway.


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## walkinthewalk

Woodhaven said:


> I
> It seems every time I read an interesting story here
> View attachment 995281
> I think back and recall something that for the most part I have forgotten about. Lots of interesting stories here and I like reading them.
> 
> The mare did learn to stand better after a bit.


1. I've been strung up by the ole bra a couple of times -- it had a lot to do with why I stopped using a saddle, lollol

2. Your limb cutting pic reminds me of the days I cut trails for the kids on my Arab/Morgan. As long as I left Fury where there were leaves to munch, he would stand quietly and wait for me to holler for him, as I bushwhacked a trail. I could be out his sight and he wouldn't leave me for the barn. My Arab/Saddlebred had no patience for such folderol, he would have left me the second he couldn't see me, lollol

3. Yes, I also do a lot of recalling on this thread. We are the long timers who, as our grandparents used to say, have forgotten more than a some people will ever know. I never quite got that until I became that person, lollol


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## Woodhaven

I've never been strung up by a bra but once thought I would be riding home in just a bra, my niece and I were following a deer trail, started out not too bad but as deer are shorter than horses (we were on small horses, luckily) the brush closed in on us and got pretty thick, we were hanging right over the sides of the horses and my blouse was getting caught in the branches and I thought I might leave it behind.
The trail was so narrow we couldn't turn around and finally got out of that. Was glad the blouse was just torn but still covered most of me.

The mare I had before was great on trails, would go through anything and I could trim and lop from her back dropping great big branches on her and she just stood there, was back in the woods tonite with my niece on our two new horses, this is as easy a path as can be and they were just looking at everything so it will be interesting when we get to some tougher going, hills water etc.


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## AndyTheCornbread

SilverMaple said:


> A friend of mine who is, uh, well endowed on her upper half got her bra hung up on a branch trail riding. There she hung on the branch, bobbing up and down about 4 feet off the ground as her horse walked out from underneath her... And we could not figure out how to get her down without cutting her bra, which she refused to let us do because she'd just paid $120 for the thing...
> 
> We ended up walking her mare back underneath her, she stood up on the saddle a bit, and we were able to get the branch unsnagged.
> 
> I'm not sure which of us laughed harder--- her or the rest of us. We were sworn on pain of death to take no photos, so I don't have one, but dang... that was one industrial-strength bra.


Talk about a wonder bra! Must have been made of kevlar thread to hold a person's entire weight off the ground without busting.

I was thinking about this thread this morning when I was out riding on a local ranch's mountain graze lease. I was riding along in some high grass next to thick brush and tree and a fawn popped out under my horse's nose. He was like "_whatever_" and just kept chugging along. I have seen a lot of horses who couldn't handle something coming out of the brush at them right under their nose. Also had a turkey and her babies flush out from under us in the long grass and again my horse was like "_whatever....another day in the life, if I can't eat it and it can't eat me, I ain't bothering with it_".


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## Woodhaven

this morning I took our fairly new (3 months) quarter horse out for a trail ride solo. On new trails to him, went around about four farms, we did some trotting along a wheat field first and then into some woods. He is a real tourist, looking at EVERYTHING. He's a slow walker, we are working on that and just inside the woods came across a downed tree, it was only about 8" thick and about a foot high, oh boy, a horse eating tree. He stopped, looked and backed a few steps, snorting at it, I encouraged him to go forward and he did, stopped to check it out, I took hold of his mane as I suspected he might take a huge leap over but he just stepped over and on we went. What a good boy.

Then trotting along beside a corn field with thick pine trees on the left and high corn on the right he was suspicious of the trees and moved away from them and some corn brushed his hind legs which kind of surprised him but he just spooked in place and continued on.

I think he will do well, just needed more exposure AND he hacks home quietly on a loose rein.


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## walkinthewalk

Woodhaven said:


> I took hold of his mane as I suspected he might take a huge leap over but he just stepped over and on we went. What a good boy.
> 
> Then trotting along beside a corn field with thick pine trees on the left and high corn on the right he was suspicious of the trees and moved away from them and some corn brushed his hind legs which kind of surprised him but he just spooked in place and continued on.
> 
> I think he will do well, just needed more exposure AND he hacks home quietly on a loose rein.


He sounds like a real sweet horse but I am sure your at-ease confidence played a huge part in his being calm and saying, "ok, if you say so--" 

Yepper, that is why I won't roach a mane --- no matter how ugly it is. I might need to grab hold of it in a hurry, lollollol

I used to ride my horses between the corn rows, on granddad's farm, to get them used to all that rustling and brushing of the leaves against them. It also taught them how to travel in a straight & narrow line, ANNND keep their mouths off anything they were not supposed to eat, unless I said "ok", lollol


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## walkinthewalk

@Woodhaven, the little fella on the left, in this pic, was my Arab/Morgan cross that I could leave several hundred feet behind me while I was bush whacking trails, and he would come when I called him

He was supposedly Straight Egyptian & Lippit Morgan. He came to me when he was 17 and a stallion. I thought he was only ten and had him gelded - that same day the Seller called to apologize and tell me he was really 17 -- boy that was a panic attack while I waited for him to recover at the vet facility.

Fury was 25 in this pic, we were on a weekend orangized ride for cancer. If my math is correct, this was 1987.

The horse on the right is my Arab/Saddlebred at age 27. He is the horse in my previous post when he was a five year old. 

https://www.horseforum.com/trail-riding/just-trail-horse-discussion-806463/page10/

These two fellas were tough. They ran on big pasture with hills and I was a weekend warrior rider because I was raising a son and had a full time job. They both wore steel shoes during riding season. Neither of them ever stored up and they both always finished ahead of the horses whose riders poked fun at them.

Thinking back, ALL of my horses were heart horses. Each one holding a special place for their ethics and integrity. I "watch" people go thru horses like a dose of salts, trying to find the right one. I must have been pretty lucky to find the right one every time someone has come to live with me, permanently:cowboy:

***
Evidently I like red horses, lollollol


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## Woodhaven

Nice looking horses WALk
Once years ago I went to ride with a friend and was riding one of her horses and we were walking along thru the woods, horses relaxed and on a loose rein and we came to a log over the trail. Friend was walking along chatting to me over her shoulder and her horse stepped over the log, I was sitting there quite relaxed and when my horse got to the log I expected him to step over but he took a big leap and landed on the other side of the log, I did a complete flip and landed on my feet at his left shoulder facing his tail, I just put my foot in the stirrup and swung up continued walking and friend still chatting had no idea of what just happened.
Now even after many years when I come to a similar situation my brain sends an automatic yellow caution flag to pay attention and be aware.

I have also ridden many times through corn fields but in the old days the rows were 36" apart and was easier to do without tramping too much corn but now they are planted 30"or less and the stalks are so much higher so I am more careful about it but with these new horses we do have to get them used to having corn brush up against them so it's no problem for them as we go along between the crop and fence line it can get pretty close at times. Something to work on with them.


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## ArizonaSun

I grew up with trail riding, but also took occasional lessons, including some time when I had an interest in dressage. For me, it seems that the difference between the trail riding horse and the "arena" horse has a good part to do with the rider. With trail riding, we want our horse to be able to think for itself a lot of the time. The arena horse must always wait for the next cue from its rider (don't jump out of the chute until the rider hits the start button; don't trot until "C"). I'd compare the difference between a trail horse and an arena horse as like comparing a Green Beret, Ranger or Seal to a ballet dancer. They have different thought processes.

That said, I hear a lot of horse owners telling how they do both arena work and trail with their horses. Ranch horses especially seem to have that versatility.


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## Aprilswissmiss

I just thought about this thread after a trail ride yesterday. I was riding my pretty great mare who has some but not a lot of trail experience, and the barn owner was riding her rescue horse that's only had five or so rides since she got her. Both of them were balking at a stream we came across. Since my mare tends to be the braver one, and I felt she was just feeding off of the other mare's hesitation, I backed her into the stream butt-first. She didn't even notice she was in the stream until I turned her around to face the right direction again, and she just had a "Well, would you look at that! This is neat!" moment, and then ate some lush grass on a nearby bank. LOL now she thinks water is the best thing ever.

We also got some great bird and dog desensitizing. We rode by a tree with 50 or so turkey vultures seated in it (meat processing plant nearby). Neither horse batted an eye, even with some of them very loudly unseating themselves from the tree and flying right in front of us. As we were walking through the suburbs on our way back, a huge dog came barreling across someone's lawn coming straight for my mare, and only came to an abrupt stop about five feet away (probably where the invisible fence ended). I swear, she didn't even look sideways for a second, just kept walking on. What a good mare.


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## BarbandBadgerandPedro

to add to req's for trail horses: can carry full saddlebags of beer & ice, empty cans, trail trash & other noisy things. must not shake up the beer! this is a MO trail req  Also can take a full grown turkey to the jaw or belly!


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## ksbowman

BarbandBadgerandPedro said:


> to add to req's for trail horses: can carry full saddlebags of beer & ice, empty cans, trail trash & other noisy things. must not shake up the beer! this is a MO trail req  Also can take a full grown turkey to the jaw or belly!


 I want to trail ride with you! :smile:


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## Woodhaven

I took our fairly new (since april) gelding out this am, did a little schooling and then headed back to the woods for a ride, he has been there a few times and with the dry weather the creek beds have been dry and he did them nicely so I was pleased with him.

Today however we have had some rain and at the first crossing, HOLY CROW, there's water in THERE!!!mg: I can't go through there! It took some coaxing to get him to even consider it and then on to the next, Same thing but he didn't take as long, He stopped and didn't want to do it but I let him stand there for a minute and he put his head down to observe the situation and I could even hear him thinking, "maybe I can just step across this" which he did.

I don't think he has had much experience with this kind of stuff. On the way back he did cross them without any fuss, so I think with a little more time we can turn this nice horse into - just a trail horse-


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## kristiebatchelor1981

I have done Pony Club, eventing, shows, lessons and ARC, but more than anything, I love being out of the trails with my horse. It's just you and your horse taking it all in, building a bond, earning each others trust and that to me, is the best feeling in the world. No-one judging you, no-one to compare yourself with, just the pure love and joy of being with your best friend.

After years of being involved in the clubs, not having endless amounts of money, and not having expensive horses and always being made to feel I wasn't good enough, now trail riding is all I do. For me, it's never been about the ribbons, or who has the most expensive.... horse, gear or float, it's been about the love I have for horses, sometimes I feel that gets lost in the "horse" world, but can always be found out on a trail with our horse.


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## therhondamarie

I have called horses "trail horses" but never in a derogatory sense. Some of my best and most favorite horses were the greatest trail horses. I could ride them through anything and they'd never blink an eye. I just call them trail horses because that is their discipline. I actually am having to teach my mare to be on trails. She is incredible in an arena, but that's because it is pretty much all she has ever done. When I took her on a trial trail ride, she was slightly better than the head horse my boyfriend rode (he is 11 and has been on the trail a handful of times). And the trail we rode on was pretty basic. I thought gelding my boyfriend was on would lose his mind when we passed a spot where someone had dumped an old sofa. And sure that horse was an amazing head horse, always get you where you need to be, quiet in the box, etc. but he could not handle a trail. And as much as I love barrel racing and competition, I also love the quiet of an early morning trail ride and seeing all of the amazing and interesting things that come across your path on the trail. I would get bored if all I did was haul and run around three barrels. I imagine my horse would as well, and I want one with a sound mind as well as a sound body. I think trails help give them that.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

therhondamarie said:


> I have called horses "trail horses" but never in a derogatory sense. Some of my best and most favorite horses were the greatest trail horses. I could ride them through anything and they'd never blink an eye. I just call them trail horses because that is their discipline. I actually am having to teach my mare to be on trails. She is incredible in an arena, but that's because it is pretty much all she has ever done. When I took her on a trial trail ride, she was slightly better than the head horse my boyfriend rode (he is 11 and has been on the trail a handful of times). And the trail we rode on was pretty basic. I thought gelding my boyfriend was on would lose his mind when we passed a spot where someone had dumped an old sofa. And sure that horse was an amazing head horse, always get you where you need to be, quiet in the box, etc. but he could not handle a trail. And as much as I love barrel racing and competition, I also love the quiet of an early morning trail ride and seeing all of the amazing and interesting things that come across your path on the trail. I would get bored if all I did was haul and run around three barrels. I imagine my horse would as well, and I want one with a sound mind as well as a sound body. I think trails help give them that.



I rode with a large group this weekend. I think there were 9 of us there. Four of us were ladies who had their barrel horses out and wanted to, and I quote, 'get them in shape, mentally and physically' before next weekends races.


I think I was the only one NOT on a barrel horse and one that's actually 'in service' and being used as a barrel horse concurrent with the trail riding. Every one of those ladies extolled the virtues of getting their barrel horses out on the trails and getting a factory reset in their heads so to speak. Not one of them was hot or spooky.


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## therhondamarie

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> I rode with a large group this weekend. I think there were 9 of us there. Four of us were ladies who had their barrel horses out and wanted to, and I quote, 'get them in shape, mentally and physically' before next weekends races.
> 
> 
> I think I was the only one NOT on a barrel horse and one that's actually 'in service' and being used as a barrel horse concurrent with the trail riding. Every one of those ladies extolled the virtues of getting their barrel horses out on the trails and getting a factory reset in their heads so to speak. Not one of them was hot or spooky.


YES! In my personal experience watching other people with their barrel horses, the best ones are the ones that did multiple things and included riding in trails with them. The horses I have seen behave the worst and be the most burnt out were the ones that rode in an arena and then rode at events. Trails is where I go to get my own mind right...so it makes sense to me that trails would help horses get their mind right as well.


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## AtokaGhosthorse

therhondamarie said:


> YES! In my personal experience watching other people with their barrel horses, the best ones are the ones that did multiple things and included riding in trails with them. The horses I have seen behave the worst and be the most burnt out were the ones that rode in an arena and then rode at events. Trails is where I go to get my own mind right...so it makes sense to me that trails would help horses get their mind right as well.



This is all just guessing, of course, but it seems to me it helps them remember they're a part of a natural world - something humans either took them away from or never let them experience. There's always something new to look at, smell, taste, experience on a trail as opposed to an arena chasing cans. It teaches the two of your to rely on one another, to relax together, and in some instances, learn to PLAY together and laugh. I think that's pretty darn important to a horse - learning to be a teammate with a human, be it for work or play, or both.


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