# Were we young and foolish or were horses better back then?



## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

In my 20 years of riding (10 competing) I've ridden some good horses. I've also ridden my fair share of stinkers, buckers...etc. In my memory, there wasn't a bad one in the bunch. Any horse was a trail horse, not a spooker to be found. The stable I grew up in did not have one horse that nipped or kicked. Horses were turned out with not a thought as to who didn't like who. 

Now, at our barn, we are chock-full-o-issues. We have several horses with bucking problems, 2 who rear, 2 who wont let their feet be cleaned, 2 with food aggression, 3 bad spookers, 1 bratty foal, 1 houdini, 1 hot horse, 1 that wont move and so on...I thought it was just our barn and the coddling that goes on there. I've been considering a move and have visited 2 farms this week...they have the same thing! One barn is an all natural horsemanship barn who had some of the nastiest horses ive seen in a while. The other was an english show barn where 3/4 of the horses are kept stalled for the majority of the day because they 'just cant get along' out in the field. 

So, what do you think? Are we spoiling our horses too much? Was I young and delerious? Or were horses better behaved and better trained back then?


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## LolHorse (Dec 28, 2009)

Well, am to young to know how horses back in the day acted but it seems to me, people stall there horses more now (due to showing) and the horses just become sour...? Blah, that was a stupid explanation, my barn is pretty calm though, the only horse drama we have is one horse doesn't like other herd mates.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I know a lot of my "Mentors" always told me that when they were young they didn't even think about th ehrose they just got on and rode. My Mom's first horse was an unbroke 4 year old arab/QH filly and she was fourteen and she broke the filly on her own (With no previous experience) then just got on and took off like a bullet. Said she was flat broke but any experienced horse trainer who got on her just laughed. Mom thought she was brilliant. Smae thing with my Aunt. She did the same thing. If you don't know any better, then every horse is a good horse. Looking back, Mom says she's amazed the filly didn't get her killed.


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## justsambam08 (Sep 26, 2009)

I heard this in a training seminar awhile back.... "humans are intelligent beings. As a result, we tend to over think everything" I think the statement is a true one. While there are some horses who just can't get along (two very stubborn horses of the same hierarchy in a small acreage, for example) with enough time, horses can generally sort it out themselves. We as humans can't seem to understand the 'nature take its course' approach--this has been said n this board before, but we tend to anamorphasize horses and as such, we keep them in stalls all day and limit their socialization time which in turn leads toll of the problems you listed (aggression, fighting horses, etc). Some horses do perfectly well, and some do not. I think the ones that don't fare well are the ones that we try the hardest to contain


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## BrewCrew (May 12, 2010)

Horses and kids, man.....seems like we've created all kinds of excuses for issues and behaviors that were just unacceptable back in the day.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

corinowalk said:


> So, what do you think? Are we spoiling our horses too much? Was I young and delerious? Or were horses better behaved and better trained back then?


Yes people spoil horses at an amazing rate. Somehow it has gotten into the minds of so many horse people that mares can't behave like geldings, many horses don't like bits, you have to custom fit a saddle for every horse, horses must be blanketed at all times when the temperature gets below 70 degrees and horses will die if they don't get buckets of grain every day. It is impossible to convince people that horses are not terribly fragile.


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## munschk (Mar 11, 2008)

The stud I ride it is the complete opposite. Think its because the horses are only a small part of the enterprise and there isnt a lot of money to waste with them. The whole herd of horses are turned out in the same paddock, never stabled. If horses dont get on, they're expected to sort it out themselves. Sure, this does lead to a few bite and kick marks but generally they sort it out after a while. The horses live on the veld/grass, just get a bit of extra hay in winter but no grain, no blankets, no shoes.

And as a result, they're some of the strongest and toughest little horses out there (granted, they are an indigenous breed). But then, it also has its down sides as the horses lose condition in winter (dont worry, they dont look emaciated, they're just a bit skinny), sometimes they're expected to get through diseases/wounds on their own (and they do get over diseases that often kill other horses). 

So I dont know, guess its a mixture out there. I think it also depends on type of horses people have. And I also think, from a riding point of view, people are 1) far more cautious now a days and 2) a lot of people now take the horse's experience/mind in consideration (perhaps in some cases, to an extreme) so 'breaking in a horse' has changed, how we train animals has changed etc.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

yes, haha way to many people spoil their horses way to much... But Its not even like spoiling them, it just ruins their minds. No horse likes to be stalled all day. But I'm pretty sure horses were bad back then to, just not the same kind of bad. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FlitterBug (May 28, 2009)

We create our horses. The horse has not changed since "back in the day", but the person has. I've found that the best thing to create a quiet barn is to remember that every horses first priority is their safety. Then also remember that their interpretation of safety is not a strong stall and perfect fencelines with manicured pastures and timely feedings. They think of safety as a strong herd with reliable leadership. Our society has created a lot of insecure people throuh different trends, ads, making things too easy to the point that people have nothing better to do than to think about what others opinions are of them. Its rare to find an honestly confident person anymore, which is why it is rare to find an honestly confident horse, because they are what we create. Like someone mentioned before, its not just horses, it transfers to children and other pets as well. One of my students parents brought out their young dog who behaved just as poorly as their children, no surprise there. My "right hand" weimeraner just gazed up at me like "seriously, I am supposed to interact with that?". Its funny how those children have come along and listen to me better than they listen to their parents.

Like mentioned by someone else, I have definately noticed how horses that are less pampered seem to have far less problems. I only stall my horses because I'm limited on pasture, but they have no set schedule, they go out when I get to it, they come in when I get to it. They are not at all sensitive if I get a different kind of hay. Yet I know other people that are off by 10 minutes from their feeding schedule and their horse throws itself into such a tizzie that it colics or hurts itself.

Horses weren't better, people were.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

BrewCrew said:


> Horses and kids, man.....seems like we've created all kinds of excuses for issues and behaviors that were just unacceptable back in the day.


BINGO! More was expected and less was accepted (of both horses and kids).


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

BrewCrew said:


> Horses and kids, man.....seems like we've created all kinds of excuses for issues and behaviors that were just unacceptable back in the day.


You nailed it.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

corinowalk said:


> Now, at our barn, we are chock-full-o-issues. We have several horses with bucking problems, 2 who rear, 2 who wont let their feet be cleaned, 2 with food aggression, 3 bad spookers, 1 bratty foal, 1 houdini, 1 hot horse, 1 that wont move and so on...I thought it was just our barn and the coddling that goes on there. I've been considering a move and have visited 2 farms this week...they have the same thing! One barn is an all natural horsemanship barn who had some of the nastiest horses ive seen in a while. The other was an english show barn where 3/4 of the horses are kept stalled for the majority of the day because they 'just cant get along' out in the field.


Wow! That's all I can say. I've board in one place and everyone got alone well except one very nasty mare (spoiled to death), but she was with geldings and they ignored each other pretty much. In 2 english barns I'm taking lessons now horses are let out at least for the day or for the night (depending on weather, but frankly I also keep my horses in stall when it's rainy or snowy) and so far I havn't heard about problems with those horses (and I ride some during my lessons). Also the show western barn I took couple lessons in didn't have bad horses. At least I didn't hear about them. I think if people/BO/BM don't put up with crap it's just not there.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

BrewCrew said:


> Horses and kids, man.....seems like we've created all kinds of excuses for issues and behaviors that were just unacceptable back in the day.


Well said! :lol: Back there good smack on butt with the hand would work just fine for lots of issues, but now it's a "child/animal aaabuuuuseeeee" (up to the point the kids are taught in school to call police(!!!) if something like that happen, and OMG! I know it did happen around, even with friends of mine twice when they didn't give car key to the teenager son so he called police about "abuse").


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I think that the problem is we put up with crap that we never would have before. Granted, we do it 'for the sake of the horse' but it seems to me that it is making some really terrible companions. Yesterday my closest and dearest friend bought a $30 fly mask for her bratty horse. His nose is white and he refuses to 'let' her put sunscreen on it. He now as a red, nasty nose and isn't allowed out during the day because of it. When she put the fly mask on, he wasn't thrilled...I wont be suprised to see him standing in the barn again today because he didn't like something. After asking him nicely to put the sunscreen on, i probably would have forced it. 
But back to the original post. I have been searching for about a year now for a horse suitable for my kids and hubby to learn to ride on. Ive looked at 2 dozen horses and havent found one that I would take home. I havent been looking for a horse without issues...i think they all have atleast one lil thing. But the horses are are being advertised as child safe (i know there is no such thing) are really far off the mark. The last one I tried was harder to ride than my horse who is no peach. 
And God forbid a horse needs a hard correction. Im not in the habit of abusing my horse but if he attempts to hurt me, nipping or kicking etc, he would regret it. 
I do agree that kids these days (gosh I sound so old!) are generally speaking out of control. If I talked to my mother the way that kids do these days, I wouldnt have a tooth left in my head. I am pretty strict with my kids but since Ive been doing it since day one, they dont resent it.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I think it is somewhat related to the changes in public liability insurance that took place in 2002 (I think, it was certainly early 2000's). The changes made it exhorbitantly expensive to insure any equestrian business, whether it was trail riding, an equestrian centre or a boarding facility. One of the unfortunate effects of the changes was that many businesses were bankrupted. The other effect was that people became much more concious of the dangerous side of equestrian activities.

I think in the last few years people have become reticent to try to train horses properly in the event that they cause injury to themselves in some way. Pretty stupid really as a badly trained horse will most likely cause injury at some point in time anyway. Parents don't want their kiddies falling off even though it is an essential part of learning how to remain balanced in the saddle. There is only so much you can learn on a dead broke school horse.

Do I think people should actively look for problem horses to train in order to gain experience? No. I do believe that people shy away from their training responsibilities due to a mistaken belief that the problems will resolve themselves, leading to horses with poor manners and bad habits. Whilst equestrian activities are considered to be 'dangerous' by many, most situations, when handled correctly, should not be dangerous but may require more mettle and strength of character than today's society is promoting.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

There is a growing trend in parenting and horsekeeping to want to "be their friend" rather than their parent/leader. I have heard parents and horse people alike say, "If I do x, y or z he won't like me anymore". My response, who cares if the little brat likes you, you need them to RESPECT you. By the way, once you have their respect, they also like you - and for much better reasons than when you let them run roughshod over the top of you.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

sarahver said:


> I think it is somewhat related to the changes in public liability insurance


 
I agree, since then the BO is always on pins and needles when the horses get turned out together...if someone gets hurt under her watch, shes out big money.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Corinowalk we posted at the same time, my comments about parents not wanting their kiddies to fall off were not directed at you just so you know!!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

themacpack said:


> I have heard parents and horse people alike say, "If I do x, y or z he won't like me anymore".


I think lots of us have it at some point. :lol: I complain all the time that my horse won't like me (which won't stop me from smacking her shoulder/butt if she tries to jump on top of me).


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

corinowalk said:


> I agree, since then the BO is always on pins and needles when the horses get turned out together...if someone gets hurt under her watch, shes out big money.


Why doesn't she spend some money on a lawyer to draw up a waiver of liability?


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

No problem! My kids are still little and while i do want to protect them when I can, its impossible to be a good rider who has never taken a fall. Riding can be dangerous and I want my kids to know and respect that. I try to minimize risks where I can but you can't protect them from everything, no matter how hard you try.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> I think lots of us have it at some point. :lol: I complain all the time that my horse won't like me (which won't stop me from smacking her shoulder/butt if she tries to jump on top of me).


That is just it - you don't let the thought keep you from doing what needs to be done. Others, though, aren't so strong and DO give in to bad (and dangerous) behavior all to keep the "incredible bond" (aka dictatorship being run by the horse) they have in place.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Kevin, she has one. Its actually a pretty solid one but its all void if they can prove 'negligence' in Pennsylvania. A barn a few miles from us just went under when their BO turned a few horses out together, that horse got beat up kicked right in her girl parts. She had to be stitched and is no longer allowed to breed. They sued the barn for vet bills and damages to the horse as well as loss of revenue because they say they intended to breed her. Negligence was her turning out a mare with a bossy alpha male type who had never hurt another horse before. Its sad...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

That's too bad. Nobody believes that stuff happens witout it being anybodies fault anymore. There's always somebody to sue.


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## sandy2u1 (May 7, 2008)

I agree with the statement that we as humans tend to over think situations. We have a mean ole' boss mare in our pasture and she will not hesitate to kick and bite any horse with very little reason. We don't keep her separate from the others. It's usually a tough lesson for any new horses we get, but every single one of them have learned that when boss mare is around that they need to be alert and ready to move away from her. It doesn't take them long to learn either. Sure they will come back to the barn with a few kick marks and bites at first, but that's the only way they can learn to be out with each other. We have 10 head that all live together. That's not to say it's happily ever after or anything...they do have spats and disagreements, but they work it out themselves.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> That's too bad. Nobody believes that stuff happens witout it being anybodies fault anymore. There's always somebody to sue.


Absolutely! Personal responsibility is a long lost concept.


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

I think its mostly because times have changed. Back then we used horses as beasts of burden/transportation... we got on and RODE. Now we think more on whats going on with your dear mount more then ever before. 

I've seen some spooky horses that spooked randomly at every single unmoving thing on God's given Earth that was ever around. It wasn't until a different rider got on and made the horse move forward and gave it a job that the horse was normal and nothing bothered it.

People now a days get their head so wrapped up in horsey spoiled emotions that they forget to .... oh how do I say it... ride? lol


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## artsyjenn (May 12, 2010)

I do think a lot of it is that people didn't expect as much "back in the day", and a lot of people just didn't know any better. A friend's mom bought her a straight off the track standardbred mare as a child, because the horse was cheap. My friend, who'd had no lessons hopped on and started riding her (and spent a lot of time hitting the ground) because "this is the horse I have". Nobody thought anything of it, though now in her mid 30s she says "What the hell was my mother thinking!!?" lol


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

My horse was the boss...he never hurt any of the others but he ran things. If he didnt like the way you were looking at his friend, he would run you to the fence line and then walk back to his herd. A fellow boarder didn't like him chasing her horse. My boy is now in a smaller field with another horse that people don't want their horse in with...simply because she is big (percheron) I find this crazy and stupid...but what can you do!


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## Jhinnua (May 26, 2010)

You know, I've been saying things like that since I was 14. I'm 21 now. XD All the kids I babysat loved me. I let them learn things on their own - like soup is hot for instance.

The girl who learned that lesson still remembers how I warned her to blow on it 'cause it was hot, but she didn't so she burned herself and I laughed. X] And the kid who threw tantrums when I babysat him because I wouldn't let him eat anything but what I gave him will probably remember that I could tune him out very easily.

As for my horses... They've been in various herds and in various situations. If they get hurt, they get hurt. If not then who cares. Neither one of them has gotten injured unless you count 'omg hair has been ripped out!' All it takes is one kick in the wrong place for horses to injure each other, and really it's probably the injured horses fault for moving the wrong way to get away.

But yeah, people are wanting way too much to be friends, not leaders. It drives me nuts and that's why I'm working on opening a Rehab Ranch for teens and animals who need a leader.

Granted, I let my horses lead sometimes. When I'm too nervous they take the lead and work through it themselves. But as soon as I calm back down, I remind them that I am the boss mare and they easily slide back into their proper roles. Which is fine 'cause they don't step on me, kick me, bite me or anything like that.

The place I'm working at right now does Natural Horsemanship, and the horses are allowed to be horses. I was bugging my boss yesterday when we were having a walking-race that my mare will trot with me while her gelding won't. It's only because every time we've gone for a walk (they're currently unbroke and we were getting them used to the saddles and new places), or even put the halter on her, she is no longer allowed to put her head down to eat unless I say so. If I move, she has to move. If I move faster, she has to move faster. If I go in a zig-zag.... yeah, you get the point.

The other horses that I haven't handled stop and put their heads down whenever they want. It bugs me... but unlike a lot of issues I hear of today where horses are trying to kill each other, or kept apart because they 'hate' each other, these horses all know each other. They're tossed out in a field together and do the 'welcome run'... where they figure out their place in the herd. There are two horses out in the field who hate each other and want to kick, bite, tear into one another whenever they're standing side-by-side. They haven't killed each other yet, nor do either have any severe injuries.

But yeah... there are places that just forget about the respect and go for the love. They forget that to have respect and love you have to have boundaries. If you want a partner, you have to have boundaries.

And you also have to stop blaming others ('stop believing in God and the Devil', so to speak) and take responsibility for your own actions.


Corinowalk: If you're interested in a good little riding horse, the people I work for have a good little mare for sale. She's not nasty and moves out nice. I rode her and she's a nice little ride once you get her going. She has the potential to be 'child safe' with a bit of consistent work. It's probably outside of your shopping grounds though, but I figured I'd toss it out there anyway.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

kevinshorses said:


> That's too bad. Nobody believes that stuff happens witout it being anybodies fault anymore. *There's always somebody to sue.*


Exactly. Up to the point of just being completely ridiculous (like those people suing McDonald's for spitting hot coffee while driving a huge van, talking on phone, drinking and doing make-up all in same time). :twisted: 

I heard a horror story on my local horse forum (knowing the person I can tell it's true). The neighbor asked her to clean his driveway after a really bad snowfall. Like a friendly neighbor hand. Which she did (and BTW, I'd do too for my neighbors if they'd ask). But when she was backing (after the work was done) the idiot stand right behind the tractor in "blind" zone. So she hit him (not badly, as far as I understand nothing major, some scratches). Guess what? He sued her for that requesting absolutely ridiculous amount of money ($100K although I'm making up here, I don't remember the exact amount). After paying $$$$$ to lawyers and number of visits to the court she won, but it was big money loss and waste of nerves on her side.

Such things make me SO mad. Sometime I feel like loosing my believe in good people and help "just because".


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

themacpack said:


> DO give in to bad (and dangerous) behavior all to keep the *"incredible bond" *(aka dictatorship being run by the horse) they have in place.


Isn't it what all of us dream about??!!


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

In a system where a person can be attempting to break into someone else's home, injur themselves in the process, sue the person they were attempting to rob and WIN (and yes, it has happened) - nothing surprises me anymore.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Ugh. I was just thinking about this yesterday. I went to get a mare and foal from a neighbor of ours because they can't keep them in the fence. They are close by so I just walked down there with the halter with the intention of walking her back up to our place. She had her head down grazing and I started to put the halter on her. I got it around her neck but no matter how much I pushed or pulled, she wouldn't lift her head so that I could put it the rest of the way on. I had to resort to kicking her in the nose to get her head up. Then she would just walk wherever she wanted, regardless if I was in the way or not and absolutely nothing I could do would get her to back off. I tried every trick I know and nothing worked. I finally got her up there and put her into a pen with electric fence all the way around and she just proceeded to walk through the fence as if it wasn't there. I know it was hot cause I touched it after she did that and holy crap! Unfortunately, that is more the norm these days cause people treat their horses like pets to be spoiled and "God forbid they have to show some respect!" Some of the problem, I think, stems from the NH movment and how so many people are being brainwashed that you can never punish a horse or they won't like you anymore.

And mac, you're right, it does happen. Last one I heard about was a guy that got attacked by a dog when he tried to break in. He won the suit and the dog had to be put down. That p!$$ed me smooth off.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

smrobs, since you opened the door, ill walk through it. I didn't want to mention the NH connection but since you did...lol Ill give a quick opinion. I think in the right hands, NH is a good tool to have on hand. That being said, I think it can ruin a horse very quickly. 
IMO most horses are physically strong and mentally weak. They want a leader. They need boundaries and consequences. If I thought my boss would let me have the day off and still get paid and all I had to do was not like him...i would sure as heck be riding more often than I do now! I think in the wrong hands, NH teaches the horse to train US...not the other way around.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Couldn't agree more.


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## Jhinnua (May 26, 2010)

I have to agree that it does stem from the NH movement also, and just from the way our society is becoming in general. NH is not about coddling the horse. It's about not cowboying them/breaking their spirit and opening up a way of communication. But again: people have lost sight of boundaries. There needs to be boundaries no matter how you train your horse, dog or raise your kids, otherwise they'll run all over you and disrespect you.

But our society is spoiled. We want to be walked over, pushed around, knocked down and are too prissy to stand up for ourselves... and then we watch someone who will stand up for themselves and call them cruel, or their actions unjust. There's a line for everything. It hasn't moved... it's just my personal opinion that humans are getting stupider and lazier as time goes on.



I've heard a bunch of stories about people breaking in and winning lawsuits. It's enough to give your head a shake. If someone broke into my house and got mauled by a guard dog or slipped on ice in my garage... and then sued me... I'd be so mad. I'd really want to commit an actual crime. They were trespassing, breaking and entering... and the dog was doing its job - protect the family. They shouldn't have the right to sue.


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## Hali (Jun 17, 2009)

People spoil their horses WAY too much.

My mare is a show horse that lives outside 24/7, isn't grained, isn't shod, and isn't allowed to throw tantrums. She survives.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Does anybody find it the least bit ironic that the more we seem to scream ZERO TOLERANCE for physical punishment for animals and children alike - the more out of control behavior we seem to witness? I don't believe it's coincidence for a even a split second.

Fear of consequence is what drives ANY intelligent being - without fear of consequence, what exactly do you have? There is a colossal difference between abuse and discipline and I find it ridiculous how often people try to liken the two - like actually trying to use the excuse that children get "complexes" if you spank them. Right, because that was SO much worse then the dysfunctional psychopaths we have running around stabbing and shooting people.

I do agree that more problems are encountered as you go - all my grandpa's horses had perfect ground manners but they certainly weren't anything more then trail horses. He did some Arabian halter showing with them, locally, but none of our horses knew much about collection or side passing or any of that. So you're going to see a rise in issues when you begin asking for more from you horse then you know how to really teach.

As far as the ground manners though, it's still a level playing field - there's simply no excuse for bad manners. I have given my horses plenty of spankings in their life, and they're still the first ones to hoard around the gate begging for food and attention. My horses have MORE love for me because it is their natural instinct to follow and enjoy being with a fair leader who makes them understand right from wrong - it's no different then momma teaching baby. I shake my head everytime I see some poor fool being bitten and kicked by their BELOVED horse because they're to afraid to lay a whupping on them because they might "not like them". Oh really, because they're showing PERFECT love for you now!

I thank my lucky stars my parents smacked me growing up. It taught me fear of consequence and I have the BEST relationship with my parents. They never hurt me, I was never scared of them, I learned QUICK that I only needed to be afraid when I did something I knew was wrong. And that fear was enough to keep me from doing a lot of stupid things!

It's like we can never find a happy medium - we've gone straight from the centuries of vicious animal and domestic cruelty, only to land ourselves in a world where the children and animals run the show. I don't know which one is worse anymore.


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## Plains Drifter (Aug 4, 2009)

> I thank my lucky stars my parents smacked me growing up. It taught me fear of consequence and I have the BEST relationship with my parents. They never hurt me, I was never scared of them, I learned QUICK that I only needed to be afraid when I did something I knew was wrong. And that fear was enough to keep me from doing a lot of stupid things!


^^I couldn't agree more!^^

I have a 16 yr old cousin that was allowed to borrow a distant relation's horse last summer and allowed to ride in roaring around town (usually at a gallop), and then just thrown in the pasture when she was done riding. She never took proper care of this mare. 

The 16 yr old's family also had a nice gelding (or would of been nice if he wasn't seriously herd bound), a now 2 yr old, and a "rescue" morgan. 

The parents of the 16 yr old allow that girl to do anything she wants. She had her own car, her own 4 wheeler, her own snowmobile and horse by the time she was 15. She was given her own cell phone..her boyfriend is allowed to sleep over and they allow them to have sex in their house and pretty much allow her to do whatever she wants. 

So...she (the 16 yr old girl) took that herd bound gelding and traded it for a hot headed 5 yr old TB Gelding that she can hardly control. My 2 yr old acts better than her TB Gelding. He wouldn't stand still no matter what. He was constantly spinning..and at one point he reared up and I thought for sure he was going over and I'd be calling 9-1-1. (this happened while she was standing on a paved road.) I just can't believe her parents allowed her to trade that gelding for this horse. I think he's just an accident waiting to happen. And if you mention anything about him...they say.."oh well, he's like this because he was used as a pony horse at the track." It's always some excuse with them.

The morgan they have, they've had for a few years now. It does nothing but sit in the pasture. I've offered to break him for them, and all the parents (the mom to be exact) tell me is..well, he was rescued and doesn't want to be ridden, so you have to go real slow with him. So...he sits there because they keep giving excuses as to why he can't be worked.

And their two yr old...I offered to help them with her to. But I was told they are holding off riding her because she doesn't like the bit....so until they can get her a bitless bridle they won't be working her.

It's amazing the difference between their horses and my horses. 

Argh....anyways. I just hate seeing parents that slack off and give excuses for everything....or children that are given too much too early. It shows in the way this 16 yr treats her horses.

My daughter is 17. She has chores, she doesn't have a cell phone and she doesn't have her own computer or tv in her room. They may seem like strict rules...but she'll survive until she's an adult.(or 18 and paying for them herself.) Until then...She's not perfect, but she's a good kid and I couldn't be prouder.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I completely agree with everyone. 
I think that whole "coddling" mindset was what messed Lacey up to begin with. She had no rules or consequences in her previous home so she invented rules for herself and expected everyone else to follow them. Once I got her, I let her get away with nothing. She isn't allowed to start eating if I'm holding the lead rope, ever, she's not allowed to eat while being ridden, she must pay attention to how I'm moving and she's not supposed to get in my way, those are just a few of the rules that she's expected to follow. The people that I board with think that I'm a little excessive with her, but which one of us has a horse that never tries to eat on the trail (even after standing, stopped in tall grass for 5 minutes), doesn't rip your arm out trying to eat while you're holding him/her, and which one of us never has to shove our horse out of the way to do whatever we need to do while leading our horse? 
I do believe the answer is me. They just say "well, he/she is just being a horse!" Well, Lacey is being a horse too, just a well behaved one. Unless of course, she changes species while I'm with her?

Of course, some horses would be fine with eating while they're being held, but because of Lacey's background she immediately starts taking advantage if I let her bend the rules at all. For instance, the other day we were out on the trail and I tried to get her to go through a puddle and she resisted quite a bit and ended up not going through the puddle. That happened about 2 more times in a row and by the third time, she was just getting sassy about anythin iasked her to do where she had been find before. Those three "wins" just sent her straight back to little miss "I'm not gonna do what you want cuz what I want is better." After that I made her go through every single puddle and after about the fourth puddle, she settled right down and stopped resisting. 

I think another thing about people now is that we have become so inconsistent as a culture. Wishy-washy-ness is expected and consistency is a shock. I used to work at a dog boarding kennel and about 80% of the owners would say "we tried training 'Fluffy' but he/she's just untrainable!" No animal is untrainable. I mean, I have my freaking betta fish trained to go into his cup when I put it in his tank and it only took me about 4 tries to teach him. If I can very easily train a fish that is probably the size of your dog's brain, I'm pretty sure your dog can be trained.

People. Gosh. This is why I hope to never to any sort of job that extensively involves people, I just can't handle how ridiculous they are! Stop making excuses or complaining and figure out a dang solution!


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## Jhinnua (May 26, 2010)

Haha. I'm not as excessive with either of my horses, but hell if they're ripping anything outta my hands. There are probably times when I should be harsher with them though...

My gelding has figured a way around the whole 'not eating while riding' issue which is harmless and amusing. He waits for there to be grass tall enough for him to reach over and grab at while continuing to walk forward. He starts grabbing it when his nose gets equal to it and has it ripped up by the time his nose passes it. Usually the plants are on the side of the hill. If he can't reach it in time or can't grab it in time he has a '****' look on his face, but keeps going.


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## ridergirl23 (Sep 17, 2009)

I was watching my aunties old vcr tape of a reining clinic she did a longlonglong time ago, and there was some really crazy horses... the sad thing was, most of them wouldnt be crazy like that if they didnt have those "cowboys" yanking and bootin and whippin' theyre sides in all at the same time. People are crazy.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

Well I'm confused.. Natural Horsemanship is not about coddling or allowing the horse to be the boss. None I've ever been party to either watching or utilizing anyway. It may be about showing the horse how to make the right decision. Any mollycoddling done by those who "practice" NH is due to their mindset prior to, not learned via that medium. All the NH clinicians and trainers I've ever learned about stress respect from the horse.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

I think too many poeple really kind of take the "natural horsemanship thing" to the extreme; refusing to 'get tough' even if that may be what the horse needs. I also believe people now a days are WAY too quick yo coin all behavior issues as "pain related"...I mean, when most people ask a question about a horse's bad behavior, what's the most common response? "This horse sounds like it's in pain"...Now, maybe a horse is in pain, but maybe he's learned how to 'work the system' so to speak, and learns that if he pins his ears, people back off; he turns and runs away in the pasture, people walk away or try to bribe him in with treats; he doesn't move his feet, whether on the ground or undersaddle, and people get off, or put him away, thinking that he's just sore. Horse's aren't that dumb, in my experience, and learn quickly what gets them what they want...


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Wow M2P, you must know my friends horse Izzy! He has been cleared by 2 vets, a chiropracter and 2 massage therapists including myself! When you get on him, he humps up like its his first ride and 'bum bucks' leaving his owner to believe that he is in pain...therefore she takes him back to the barn. He has no previous injury, he is pretty young (7) and will lunge all day long, with or without a saddle without a buck in sight. Get on his back, hes a bronc. A lazy, half hearted one...but a bronc non-the-less. He must be very proud of how well trained his human is!


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## Jhinnua (May 26, 2010)

Ahahaha. XD

Ugh. My mare is kinda in the 'if I buck I'll get her off and she'll leave me alone' stage at the moment. It was my fault for not riding her consistently, I know that. I know I've made mistakes... which is why I'm going to be fixing that in August (I want her to w/t/c for school, but I don't want to put too many hours on her as I still want her to be a little untrained when I go to school... otherwise I have to find a diff. horse to use for class.)


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Wow this thread is much needed. Seriously i HATE spoilt horses. My competition horse was like a prized princess darling with her old owners i mean disgraceful! From Septembet the first until June the first she was stabled with big rugs on and a light summer sheet on June, July August! She was babied if she didnt want to be ridden then back to the stable for a groom.
Now i dont believe in that at all im from farming back round animals have been around for thousands of years they can survive!
I dont bring my horses in until the ground is getting damaged by them then 4come in and my ponies stay out on the side of a mountain and deal with it. I have no routine in my day if i sleep in they get fed when i wake up TOUGH.

I recently took in my friends horse and my paddocks are all electric fences her 'darling' paraded through four fences like they were nothing. Soooo up went the voltage to 12000 volts and i put the fence up to her nose and shocked her. None of my horses would EVER break my fences they know the consequences of mis behaviour.

I hate going to shows or yards and just seeing what people have done to horses they are treated like fragile chins taken out when its riding time then instantly back in to keep them safe. 
My pet peeve is they have to live in because " they vcant be caught for aaaages"- yeah?? Teach them. Or " is to cold out there"- Tough. 2 he needs to be inside where its warm and i can look out for him"- Yeah im sure what he always wanted was to live in a 12*12 box with hay twice a day in comparisson to large fields with his friends.

Or calling the vet for antibiotics for EVERY single thing, there was a stage where none of my horses had vaccinations. I dont get there teeth done cause guess what.....they dont need it there grazing. I think i saw my vet once last year whwn i collected my vaccinations off him if there injured i deal with it. There is no need to pump them with anti biotics etc they recover from worse.

Or every time a horse misbehaves its ALWAYS pain pumpkin would NEVEr rear buck or bolt on mummy!! Imagine actually.....DISCIPLING your horse god its shocking! There is nothing a few long rides dripping wet numnahs and one big stick wont fix!

Why do people want to be here horses friend.....he cant talk to you and probably wouldnt want to even of he could. Your there to tell him what you want done thats it.

Sorry about the long rant alot to get off my chest it probably doesnt make sence and goes in loads of different directions,


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

Here's my 2 cents for what its worth.
One, I don't think people really understand what respect is and therefore don't know how to ask for it. When you respect someone you don't necessarily like them, agree with them, or understand everything about them. You defer to their judgement and preference. Why? Maybe its trust, fear of consequences, the rules, habit -the reasons really don't matter. My mother's favorite answer to the "Why" questions was "because I said so" If I didn't do what she asked then there were consequences (spanking, grounding, no tv) end of story.

Horse -"Why should I move here" 
Person "uhm, because I said so" 
Horse doesn't move - enter "consequences".

Two- I think the other problem is time. People let horses get away with bad behavior because they don't want to take the time to fix it, work it out, correct the horse, or whatever. I'm guilty of this one. If I get off work and am tired, I'll tolerate things I normally wouldn't because I just want a nice quiet ride. My older mare is great at figuring that one out. She can tell by the way I walk to stall what I'll put up with that day and what I won't.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

mom2pride said:


> I also believe people now a days are WAY too quick yo coin all behavior issues as "pain related"...I mean, when most people ask a question about a horse's bad behavior, what's the most common response? "This horse sounds like it's in pain".QUOTE]
> 
> Couldn't agree more. Don't get me wrong, if I think a horse really is in pain I will be the first one to exhaust all resources trying to sort it out.
> 
> ...


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

MaggiStar said:


> Wow this thread is much needed. Seriously i HATE spoilt horses. My competition horse was like a prized princess darling with her old owners i mean disgraceful! From Septembet the first until June the first she was stabled with big rugs on and a light summer sheet on June, July August! She was babied if she didnt want to be ridden then back to the stable for a groom.
> Now i dont believe in that at all im from farming back round animals have been around for thousands of years they can survive!
> I dont bring my horses in until the ground is getting damaged by them then 4come in and my ponies stay out on the side of a mountain and deal with it. I have no routine in my day if i sleep in they get fed when i wake up TOUGH.
> 
> ...


*Bravo *very well said.


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## BrewCrew (May 12, 2010)

flytobecat said:


> Horse -"Why should I move here"
> Person "uhm, because I said so"
> Horse doesn't move - enter "consequences".


Love this. So simple to understand and follow through with. Zero tolerance.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I think the problem emerges when people confuse zero tolerance for abuse. I have never beaten my 3 year old filly - she had severe leading and ground problems, so I would carry a Dressage whip with me, carried on my left side because it was long enough to flick back and give her a tap in the belly without ME having to move from my position at her head. These were never smacks, but it's equine nature to be startled when something from behind sneaks up on you. She would often jump forward, the pressure would release and we would continue. It only took a few days for her to figure out I want her head AT my shoulder at ALL times, no exceptions.

I never had to HIT her to make her understand - I just used her own nature of fear against her. Her owner actually believes you just "stand quietly and ask" until they do it for you - we have pics of our battle royale over a water puddle the first few days I owned her. Planting your feet and not moving it NOT an option. And I never beat her for it - within 3 days I had a mannerly filly who ALWAYS moves forward when asked because she doesn't like the slapping sound tapping her belly or haunches.

My grandpa uses to own a horse that wouldn't get over in his standing stall - he got so excited by dinner time, he'd start dancing and smash whoever was feeding him into the side of the wall. These were the old time stalls where you had to walk alongside the horse in the stall to get to the manger. My grandpa was a wily fox, and instead of beating the horse, he set up brackets and attached a pitchfork to either side of his stall - tines curving in. I know, everyone is going OMFG WHAT AN ABUSIVE SOB. Is he? That horse learned REAL fast that the walls of his stall were not a fun place to stand and within 48 hours, he was the most gentlemanly horse in the barn. My grandpa never laid a hand on him, and never had another issue with him.

My grandpa was never afraid to rule with an iron fist when it came to his horses, and yet he could holler the entire herd off of 80 acres with one whistle - and he DIDN'T feed them carrots and handfuls of goodies from his hands constantly! He sang to his horses, he loved his horses, and he demanded respect of his horses. And over 10 years since the last foal was born on that farm, people still speak in admiration of the respectful and affectionate horses that ALWAYS stepped off that farm.

Haha, last week we had all four horses tied in the arena - the two older ones and the two 3 year olds. There are box stalls in the arena, and the cowboy was coming in with the tractor to clean them out. He stops and he asks "Will they be ok?" and I turned in surprise and said "yes!" Would they be ok? I could really care less - they were tied strong and they could flip out any way they pleased, I refuse to coddle my animals!

As a note, not one of them even blinked an eyelash. :wink:


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Nico, my constant tester, decided that he did not like baths. He was snorting and dancing on the line...avoiding the water...a friend suggested trying to coax him into it. I started slow and was sweet talking him the whole time. He continued to act up. I had had enough...a long hot day in the sun working combined led me up to stand back and spray him with full force. 2 minutes later, he stood like the well seasoned horse that he is and by the end, actually enjoyed the water. He did the same thing with fly spray and anything else. He came from a pretty prominent barn in the area and I have to assume that he has had a bath and been fly sprayed before. He just likes to see how much he can get away with. Now that I have started putting my foot down, he has really made a turn around. He is still high strung and dancy, not just under saddle but even in his stall and in the pasture. The difference is he is no longer dangerous.


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

I see a lot of "bubble-wrapping" of horses these days. You know, by the owners who insist that their horse _must_ be kept sheltered from the elements at all times, protected from flies and loud noises and flapping tarps and loose dogs and whatever else _might_ frighten them. They call in animal communicators and try to attribute all kinds of human emotions and motivations to use as an excuse for the things their horses do. It's similar to the parenting trend of trying to be the child's "friend," where _discipline_ has become a dirty word.

Not surprisingly, there are now barns full of spoiled horses, and classrooms full of spoiled kids. 

In addition, there is the Lassie syndrome (I call it this because it happens a lot among dog owners, too). . .where owners (especially novice owners, who are altogether new to horses) don't realize that horses are not born knowing everything and that you actually have to teach/train them. They think that they're just going to be able to get a horse, throw a saddle and bridle on and the horse will just "know" what is expected of it.

When the horse makes it obvious that it doesn't know what it hasn't been taught, the owner wants a "quick fix." That's just the nature of our society. People want instant gratification, especially when they're paying $$$ to board and train, or even taking lessons. They want things on their terms, on their timetable. 

For those of us who choose to have horses in our lives, it's easy to forget that most people in the general public really don't know anything about them. . .that includes general behavior, safety, breeds, colors, riding disciplines. 

A lot of that is due to more and more people growing up in the cities and suburbs. They simply don't have the same exposure to horses growing up that previous generations have had. Even those who do get involved in horses often base their ideas of what a horse needs on their OWN needs and wants. . .sure, nice big box stalls and heated wash stalls and climate-controlled indoor arenas are a _nice_ place for a horse to live and be exercised, but those are all ideas based on what is convenient for _people_. 

I've talked to some horse owners who were aghast when I mentioned taking my horse camping. . .because my horse would not be standing in a heavily-bedded stall overnight. Instead, all of the horses were tied out on high tie-lines, able to move around and lie down, with plenty of access to hay and water throughout the night. The horror!:shock:

:lol:


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Jolly Badger said:


> I've talked to some horse owners who were aghast when I mentioned taking my horse camping. . .because my horse would not be standing in a heavily-bedded stall overnight. Instead, all of the horses were tied out on high tie-lines, able to move around and lie down, with plenty of access to hay and water throughout the night. The horror!:shock: :lol:


I've encountered several people over the years that are like that! Even the people who I've worked for this last year were always like, "are the horses able to get in the barn?" and this is in decent weather...:? Didn't matter either, how many times I assured them that they prefer to be outdoors, and even in 'bad weather' I always find them outside the barn, butts to the wind...:lol:


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Our barn is open on both sides of stalls...its basically a run-in that has been separated into stalls that, when turned out, any horse can get in any other horses stall. In the dead of winter, they come in. In the heat of summer, they come in. Other than that, they are way up high until it is feed time. The saddest sight I ever saw was a sweet old rescue we had named Geo. He was a show horse all of his life and in 18 years was NEVER turned out (not exaggerating, the horse never saw sun til he came to us). We unlocked all the horses doors and let them run...Geo stood there and cried and cried for his friends to come back. He walked through mud like it was eating his very flesh. The first time a fly bit him, he freaked out and bolted through 5 strands of hot wire. 2 weeks later, try to catch him. He quickly found his way in the herd and wouldn't let you blanket him even if it was 20 below with wind. They tolerate us, they work for us, some will even protect us, but deep down they are herd animals with a deep need for fresh air and companionship.


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## 5cuetrain (Dec 11, 2009)

It all boils down to one simple word--RESPECT.

DISRESPECT WAS NOT TOLERATED AND THERE WERE CONSEQUENCES.

Seems that nowadays things have turned upside down.

If you need an indicator simply review most of the posts on this site.


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## tealamutt (Aug 21, 2009)

Appyt said:


> Well I'm confused.. Natural Horsemanship is not about coddling or allowing the horse to be the boss. None I've ever been party to either watching or utilizing anyway. It may be about showing the horse how to make the right decision. Any mollycoddling done by those who "practice" NH is due to their mindset prior to, not learned via that medium. All the NH clinicians and trainers I've ever learned about stress respect from the horse.



totally agree! NH is supposed to be about "speaking the horse's language", which includes swift consequences for misbehavior or disrespect. And in their own language this includes, bites, kicks, etc. I really think the biggest problem with the NH movement is the lovey dovey sunshine daydreamers that come into it thinking it is supposed to be about being your horse's best friend and trying to make it all about that. Certain of these self proclaimed "NH clinicians" should be correcting this misconception but it is just such a **** good marketing technique they can't resist going with it! 

I would say I do a fair amount of NH type stuff with my horse and he wouldn't think twice about biting, crowding, etc. When I say move he says "how fast?"


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Here is some food for thought, I would be genuinely interested to hear from NH and non NH people on this:

Why is it that when you swat a horse to kill a horse fly (or 20) they do not flinch. Barely blink an eye. However when you give them a smack for doing something naughty such as nibbling clothing or whatever they react more dramatically? I use the same intensity of smack for both actions however the interpretation by the horse couldn't be more different.

To me, it seems as though the horse knows whe you are swatting a horse fly that they had done nothing wrong and intrinsically understand that you are helping them out. Therefore they are not bothered by it. When they are behaving in a disrespectful manner and recieve THE SAME smack they understand it is swift retribution for an unacceptable behaviour. It is not the pain or 'abuse' that bothers them, it is the fact that they did something naughty and are now in trouble. My horses attract horse flies all over their bodies so the location of the smack is irrelevant.

Opinions?


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## roro (Aug 14, 2009)

It's times like these where I realize what my barn is really like. I bought my horse with a slight pawing issue, nothing I couldn't fix really. If he pawed when I was in with the hay I wouldn't give him food until he stood nicely, and if he pawed while I was tacking up I'd clap my hands loudly and he'd stop. However, he was now pawing in a different way. 

He learned he couldn't paw when I had the hay or when he was standing with me, BUT-It turns out during the day when I'm gone kids from a preschool across the street come with their parents and hand feed various horses carrots. He pawed at them and they would give him carrots. I also notice people saying "good boy Cezar, it's okay...iiiitt'sss oookkaaayyy..." when he paws at someone carrying hay by for another horse, and sometimes they will give him a bit of hay. When the rider of the horse next to him enters her stall she pets him if he's pawing. It's like he's trained everyone in the barn to give him anything he wants just because he bangs on the wall a few times.

I have told multiple people not to give him things in the barn aisle. I have even put up a sign saying he is allergic and can't take treats. Them being "nice" to my horse is ruining his manners. It's quite aggravating to me and stressful for everyone involved. Maybe if people listened to me and tried to be rational instead of encouraging the behavior things would go better. But no, obviously he is pawing because he is a traumatized starving horse that needs emotional support and food pronto. End rant-


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## Deerly (Apr 18, 2010)

sarahver said:


> Here is some food for thought, I would be genuinely interested to hear from NH and non NH people on this:
> 
> Why is it that when you swat a horse to kill a horse fly (or 20) they do not flinch. Barely blink an eye. However when you give them a smack for doing something naughty such as nibbling clothing or whatever they react more dramatically? I use the same intensity of smack for both actions however the interpretation by the horse couldn't be more different.
> 
> ...


Absolutely! I think maybe this has a lot to do with horses "testing" boundaries and people and seeing how far they can push things and get away with them. Just like they do with each other!

I've seen horses be pesky to each other and nibble or be a nuisance and if the other horse reacts negatively it's like they knew it was coming all along but wanted to see what they could get away with!

Additionally, it's not the smack that bothers them because the point of the smack isn't to hurt them or scare them but to distract/reprimand/stop the behavior. They can sense emotion and intention and understand at the very least what sort of energy you are giving off and what your attitude/mood is.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Have to agree, Sarahver. I also think a part of it is our body language is more aggressive when they misbehave and they pick up on that, just like an alpha mare pinning her ears before she kicks.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

I haven't read the whole thread but I have a couple of random pet hates that I have to get off my chest LOL!! 

First is a horse that dawdles and walks slow and meanders along reluctantly while it's rider go on about the "poor horse and how unfit he is or he must be tired" (not joking!). Then as soon as you turn for home the horse turns into a raging wanker and keeps running up my horses bum ( while it's rider sits there going, I don't know whats got into him he must have his second wind!) Aaaagh!!! Seriously??!! Problem horse or stupid rider?

Second one is preschooler with SNOT STREAMING out of both nostrils, all over the sleeves of his shirt, down the front of his shirt, down his chin, into his mouth (ewwwrk!!!!!). Then him playing with MY preschool daughter, and his mother telling me that she would love to wipe his nose but he doesn't like it - so she doesn't!!!! Aaaaaargh!!! What is wrong with people??

I know this is probably random but hey, sometimes ya just have to get it out there.


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## Broski1984 (May 28, 2010)

The barn I stayed at for a while had a lot of "problem" horses; a biter, a kicker, a bucker-biter-kicker-stomper, a cribber-digger, a weaver and one 100% crazy horse. A lot of these problems were relating to underworking the horses, or spoiling them. My horses, being little ****s, were still some of the "well behaved" horses there - seeing as the one only cribbed, and the others were fine.


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## Appyt (Oct 14, 2007)

> My horses attract horse flies all over their bodies so the location of the smack is irrelevant.
> 
> Opinions?


Body language... period


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

I think it's because of the growth of backyard breeding nowadays. 15 years ago, that term was barely in use :shock:. But now, the economy is so darn bad that horses are being sold for pennies, uneducated and just-beginning horse people buy the ka-ute ponies, breed them to make little babies because terribly-conformed studs of unknown lineage are being sold for a dime a dozen, and voila, you already have a total over-population of unproven, unknown-lineaged, un-gelded horses that don't get any time in training because the owners either want them as pasture decorations, think it's cruel to ride them, or are too busy breeding more darn horses to even THINK about even halter-breaking the ones they have on the ground! Little princess, pwetty baby grows up pushy because she's been told over and over by YOURS TRULY that horses are at the top of the hierchy and humans were put on this earth to be bossed around. Then the animals get seized by animal control, another innocent just-starting out horse owner buys the horse, brings it to a less-than-reputable stable where they turn all the stallions out with the mares, and voila! More pwetty, unwanted little foals who have no manners and whos breeding and training aka worth is less than decent. Rant over


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Really good points Equiniphile'! The other thing that I have noticed and it is something I was guilty of myself is that people want the breaking of a horse to be absolutely risk free. They think that if they handle horses from the day they are born by the time the horse is ready to be ridden it will just happen naturally. Instead a lot of horses are way over handled, they are over familiar with people and have no concept of human/horse respect. 

I made that very mistake with my previous horse and I will never do it again. If I ever feel the need to bring on a weanling I will be turning it out to be a horse untill it is at least three and a half and it will be left basically unhandled untill serious training time. I think horses need the chance to be horses for a while before we try to 'humanise' them.


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## ilyTango (Mar 7, 2010)

This thread brings up the topic that me and my sister's boyfriend argue about quite a bit. There are a lot of Mennonites around here (heck, my dad's team are Mennonite horses) and he is totally convinced they're cruel and don't care about the horses and hit and whip them. Now I would never honestly say that they beat them-sure, there are some that are more competent horsemen than others, but the only reason they might appear cruel is because they do not take **** from their horses. They don't coddle their horses-the horses aren't pets, they aren't there to be loved and brushed and talked to-they are there to work and only work; I suppose you could say Mennonites care for their horses as you care for your family car-it's useful, it gets you places, and you will take proper measures to care for it, but there's no way you feel the need to go out and clean the interior and wash the windows daily. Humans feel this is cruelty because they can't imagine making their horse pull a buggy to town and back then throw it in the field when they get home without treats, pats or praising in a baby voice. The fact remains that Mennonite horses are extremely well-behaved. They know exactly what is expected, they know exactly what the boundaries are and what the consequences are for crossing those boundaries. 

When my dad's team came home they had no clue what carrots, apples or other treats were-they barely knew what brushes were and what it was to be groomed. Yet, they knew how to pull a wagon. They knew how to lead without stepping on your feet and getting in the way. They knew how to pick up their feet and move from pressure and the works. Clearly, the lack of treats and fondling did not do them any harm. Horses can do just fine without treats and cuddles-they _can't _do just fine without rules, discipline and proper training.

As for the outdoor argument-I'll say that our horses are out 24/7, rain or shine, winter and summer, and you know what? It makes them tough. They don't get diseases. People who stable their horses every night and leave them in when it's stormy and rainy forget that wild horses didn't have shelters to go in or a nice 12x12 box stall to munch hay in. It will NOT hurt them-they have hair-they can survive!

I'd have to say I'm more guilty of being too strict with Tango than I am loving. I'm sorry for it, but I'd much rather she respect me and not be her best friend than give her treats and love and let her walk all over me. I'm probably going to offend so many people by saying this, but I can't stand when people say that their pet/horse is their best friend in the world and "we love each other" and "my horse would never hurt me!" Your horse is not a human. Your horse does not love you, and yes, your horse could hurt you very easily-maybe without even meaning to. What really irks me is the people who refuse to admit they can't handle their horse and that the thing is too much for them because they've grown attached to it. I mean, I suppose you could say I "love" Tango, but honestly, if she ever purposely hurt me, or got unmanageable and impossible for me to handle you can bet your butt I'm going to sell her. I actually _have _considered selling her a couple times (though obviously never have). People just get too attached, which is the wrong thing with animals. Because a heated barn with a thick bed of straw seems awesome for you does not mean your horse needs it. Because you want to be nice and give treats and love and be a friend does not mean your horse needs it. Too many people give their horses human emotions, but it's a strong leader and clear rules that horses really need-not a friend.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

THANK you, Tango! Different horses will be mannerly with different amounts of strictness. My 22yr old gelding, I can sit and feed him treats all day and he will still work his butt off for me. My mini would get pushy if I handfed her a bazillion treats a day. Horses are individuals, like I just stated, but as a whole, drum roll.....
***your horse doesn't love you because you're the perfect little Black Stallion couple. You have to remember that horses form bonds of convenience. You feed him, he's not gonna push his limits too far if he knows you won't take his crap. A horse has to RESPECT you! Enough of letting your horses walk all over you.***
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jhinnua (May 26, 2010)

ilyTango said:


> but there's no way you feel the need to go out and clean the interior and wash the windows daily


I swear if my dad had the time, he would do this to his car every day. <_<;;

I agree and disagree with the 'we love each other' statement... Meaning: I love my horse, and I know he doesn't love me the way a human does... but if I need someone on an emotional level, he's there. He shows jealous behavior if I pay too much attention to another horse, though unlike some horses he isn't pushy 'mememe'. He's more of a jester about it...

But yeah... Human love and animal love are two completely different things irregardless.

Edit:
Equiniphile said in better words than I what I mean by animal love. X] Animal love = bond of convenience, whatever the convenience of it may be.


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

then we come to the discussion of what emotions are human emotions. I think horses experience jealousy hatred spite happiness exuberance....the list goes on. I don't think they experience:

love the way we do. Yes they feel passion about things, but not intensified, nor the same as we do

and embarrassment. Horses don't get embarrassed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jhinnua (May 26, 2010)

Of course, there should always be talk of emotions and who experiences what. lol.

But I agree completely. X]
Dunno about embarrassment, but as I haven't seen a horse get embarrassed yet I'll agree for now.
I have known some horse to make a mistake and take on a 'Mistake? Haha, yeah... I totally meant to trip and fall on my face... what're you talking about?' attitude. Though it could just be my imagination gone wild. lol.

(on an off topic note: Dogs experience embarrassment. I accidentally got scissor happy with my dogs tail when I was younger and he didn't want to show anyyyone the horrid result. As soon as the hair grew back out it turned into a helicopter tail.)


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

I used to train a stallion that would show signs of embarrassment (I think). He quite liked having his ears scratched.... unless another horse saw him enjoying being patted my a mere mortal human. If he was busted enjoying a good ear scratch, he would immediately turn his head the other way and pretend he was just standing there all along, ignoring everyone.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

I totally agree about the 'love' issue. I think there are probably so many people who have been hurt by a horse they 'love' because they think that the horse will take care of them. Its all about rewarding and reprimanding. I am guilty of giving treats but like everyone else, I feel I have a valid excuse. My horse was abandoned by himself for over a year. We had to herd him into a stock trailer. He is just starting to accept people in his life again. And though he can be hard to catch, hes alot easier when you shake treats at him. I know its a lazy cop-out but when you have 2 hours to ride and it takes and an hour and 15 minutes to catch your horse...whatcha gonna do?! So I bribe him. Now in our 'work' routine, there are no 'treats'. The reward is less work, the reprimand is more. I know its against the norm but I dont seek out the 'end on a high note'...when Im ready to stop, he will know. A friends ride goes like this every day. Get on, he walks away while mounting...she spins him like crazy til 5 minutes later he will stand still...he walks hesitating at every step...she asks for a trot...he bucks...she starts looking for a good place to stop. When I ride him, he stands stock still and will toss a buck but believe me he pays for it with sweat. With the mennonite (amish in our area) their horse dont get breaks. They are just like a car to them. One of the best colt starters in our area is amish and is never abusive...but he just doesn't budge. If you pay him to train your horse...he will. But you dont wanna be there when he does.


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## Broski1984 (May 28, 2010)

I agree with the Amish/Mennonite bit, to some extent; in my days in Texas, some of the BEST horses I ever saw were ones shipped down from Ohio who the Amish had worked. If they had a job to do, they'd do it if it was the LAST thing they did.

The amish-trained horses in my area are a bit... off, lets just say, though. Not sure why, but they are.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

It might be the quality of the horse that is off. In our area, the amish buy whatever suits their needs. OTTBs, drafts, crossbreeds. It only takes them a bit of time to train them to cart and since they dont show and dont much care about material things, they dont care about pedigrees or papers.


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## ilyTango (Mar 7, 2010)

I'm not saying treats and such are bad-just people tend to prioritize treats and love over discipline because they want the horse to like them, and that's not good. 

And yeah, I agree with the statement horses don't love the same way we do. Horses might feel affection, they might be used to your presence and trust you, but their love is not on the same degree that humans' is.


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## Broski1984 (May 28, 2010)

corinowalk said:


> It might be the quality of the horse that is off. In our area, the amish buy whatever suits their needs. OTTBs, drafts, crossbreeds. It only takes them a bit of time to train them to cart and since they dont show and dont much care about material things, they dont care about pedigrees or papers.


They don't seem ill-fitted for their jobs, just _ill-tempered_ down here. The few I've seen go through auction, if they were what they said they were, probably did their jobs well. Their temperments could've been due to stress, and it could've been due to them _knowing_ they could get away with more from the auction employees, but with better-tempered animals going through, they had a hard time getting sold.

A few of the ones I mentioned were trained by the Amish, but not owned by them; these are the ones I have more experience with up here. All three of them were crazy, although that could of been their breeding, training they got AFTER the basics from the Amish, or something like that. The two that were at the barn I boarded were some of the worst horses I've ever met; biters, kickers, chargers, etc.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Wow, isn't it amazing how much of a difference can be seen even in the same type of community across the country. I am familiar with some Amish families up in Kansas, we usually go to a horse sale in Kingman once a year and there is hundreds of Amish there. I hear all these horror stories about people rescuing horses from the Amish and how horrible they are to their animals but in all the years that I spent visiting up there, I never saw one skinny horse, or an ill-shod horse (sometimes it wasn't perfect but it was still functional), or even an ill-tempered horse. Not from the Amish anyway.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

ilyTango said:


> I'm not saying treats and such are bad-just people tend to prioritize treats and love over discipline because they want the horse to like them, and that's not good.
> 
> And yeah, I agree with the statement horses don't love the same way we do. Horses might feel affection, they might be used to your presence and trust you, but their love is not on the same degree that humans' is.


ITA - on both points.


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## Broski1984 (May 28, 2010)

The animals seem healthy, don't get me wrong. The last two Amish bred, trained and owned I saw go through the (mostly not-Amish) auction were two HaflingerX ponies that were supposedly broke to death, broke to pull and kidbroke to ride. From the start, the one was spooky in the ring; prancing in place, refusing to lead, shaking, etc. Then someone climbed on the _other_, and was quickly bucked off. I believe they also had a mule, that no one could even get in the pen with.

Could've been a bad group, or a bad night for the group, but, needless to say, they didn't go for much. The mule went for $20 I think (and they normally go for a LOT more here), and the horses went for $80 for the set.


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## corinowalk (Apr 26, 2010)

Maybe thats why they were at the auction and not pulling carts down rt. 30! lol all kidding aside, our amish are very friendly and generally pretty good with their animals. If I had a youngster or a problem horse, I would send him to the amish without looking back.


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## Broski1984 (May 28, 2010)

Probably was. If I owned those animals, I'd of sold them there, too, but I wouldn't of said they were deadbroke. But, seeing as I haven't seen the "good" animals the Amish have, I have nothing to compare them to up here. 

The Amish are certainly not rude here; they just aren't... talkative. I went to the auctions with a friend, who knew the guy who had bought the two ponies and could buy them himself, from them. He asked the owner of the horses, who was of course Amish, how the horses normally acted and if their behaviour was normal, or if they just got spooked. He has kids, and he wouldn't want to bring home dangerous animals.

Basically, the Amish man wouldn't answer his questions, and kept saying they'd already been sold, so it didn't matter (even when my friend said he knew, and could buy them from the guy that had gotten them).

Seemed rude, but it may just of been the guy's personality.

I'm derailing this thread, though, so I best stop.


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## Ilovemyarab (Jun 1, 2010)

I have a small pony who hasn't seen the vet and hasn't been stabled more than a few times in a few years, and he is the happiest, healthiest little guy, very few problems. I just think he was built sturdy. I have an arabian(I know they are supposed to be more high-needs) who has settled down a lot sice I got her. They fight sometimes, but I guess I expect them to work it out and toughen up.


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## ChristineNJ (Jan 23, 2010)

Well, this post was certainly interesting. Years ago when I rode at a barn with a German Dressage trainer/instructor/barn owner he mostly kept the horses in the barn. However, they got regular use. Trail rides all day every week-end and lessons during the week. Each horse had his own personality -- one mare had a kicking problem...she would kick out at anyone at anytime, one horse had been abused and would buck out on the trail, one horse was very high spirited and one horse would roll out on the trail. I don't think any of these horses were "spoiled" but each was had their own personality and was very different.

Now at the stable I ride at, the horses are mostly out in the fields. They do fight once in awhile but do settle it among themselves pretty much. I really think they are happier out in the field with at least one other horse to keep them company. They are herd animals after all. They are brought into the barn on very cold snowy nites and it all seems to work out well. (All geldings & mares - no stallions)


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## artsyjenn (May 12, 2010)

My very first horse was Amish broke, to ride and drive (though I never drove him). He was a mess when I got him as a 3 year old, and I directly attribute a lot of it to the treatment he got during his "training". If he even saw a whip sitting in the tack room he flipped out. "Amish broke/trained" is NOT a selling point for me when it comes to horses, to put it mildly.
Also, I have been to the Sugarcreek auction here in Ohio. Felt it was something I needed to see for myself. How the Amish workers there treat those horses was burned into my brain. Not to mention the myriad of cast off buggy horses and drafts going to meat. The whole thing was downright soul sucking.


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## x Branded Heart x (Jun 17, 2010)

Just a something to add to this thread, not that I read the whole thing..
But my friend bought a 3 year old paint/draft sport horse type horse. Trained by "the amish", from an auction. (this was a few years ago).
At the auction, this gelding seemed quiet, evidently ride-able and looked to be pretty broke. But when we brought him home, I guess the drugs wore off or something because that horse was TERRIBLE. He would strike you from behind when being lead, would rear up on you, would drag you around without a care. I was disgusted. In the right hands, that horse could've been great, but my friend did not have the experience/knowledge it took to get him there so she ended up selling him. Just goes to show that the "amish trained' horses are not always good. Not saying all aren't. But I have heard of a lot of stories..


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## ilyTango (Mar 7, 2010)

x Branded Heart x said:


> Just a something to add to this thread, not that I read the whole thing..
> But my friend bought a 3 year old paint/draft sport horse type horse. Trained by "the amish", from an auction. (this was a few years ago).
> At the auction, this gelding seemed quiet, evidently ride-able and looked to be pretty broke. But when we brought him home, I guess the drugs wore off or something because that horse was TERRIBLE. He would strike you from behind when being lead, would rear up on you, would drag you around without a care. I was disgusted. In the right hands, that horse could've been great, but my friend did not have the experience/knowledge it took to get him there so she ended up selling him. Just goes to show that the "amish trained' horses are not always good. Not saying all aren't. But I have heard of a lot of stories..


You make a good point, because I too have seen a lot-a LOT-of very quiet, well broke horses at auction and when they go home they are nuts. (Just, for example, Maggie, one of my dad's Mennonite-trained horses, is really high-strung and not for the timid or inexperienced.) I think the cause of this is that the Mennonites _are _experienced, and their horses know it. Have you ever seen a Mennonite farrier? One we have around here is excellent working with those high-strung horses. He'll go up to it, talk to it etc, and the horse quiets right down. It's incredible watching it. The horses know they won't be getting away with any crap, and so when they go to people who have looser rules and whatnot they take advantage of it. Just as you said above: in the right hands the horse could've been great, and that's just it. That's probably why a lot of people have problems with Amish/Mennonite horses-they don't have the experience or knowledge to handle them.


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## artsyjenn (May 12, 2010)

Yeah, if a horse knows that if it rears up while it's being driven, a 2x4 is going to come down between it's ears, it's definitely an incentive for that horse not to rear up! But for someone who doesn't wish to handle a horse that way, the same horse probably won't behave as well.
I'm sure that just like anyone else, not all Amish are the same when it comes to animals. But ultimately, in that culture, an animal is a tool/cash crop, not a beloved family member (I won't even get into the Amish puppy mill issue). Once it's no longer useful, nobody seems terribly worried about forever after. It's off to Sugarcreek or New Holland, just like a car goes to the junkyard.
A family in our old 4h group took their horse to an Amish trainer to be "de-spooked". Evidently that was the guy's supposed specialty. The trainer hobbled the horse, put him down on the ground, and ran a chain saw with no chain all over his body. Let's just say it didn't work.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

In this day and age with all the new found training technology and all these must have supplements, it really is a wonder any horse before 1990 ever managed to live and be ridden!

I think horses of this day and age are babied way too much. Back in the old days (the 80s) you hardly ever heard of drugged horses at auctions. Now it seems like common practice. 

I don't think horses were better back then, but there has been a huge change in people that work with them.


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## ilyTango (Mar 7, 2010)

Yep, I've heard the stories of the training gone wrong and all that too...actually my instructor knows someone who sent a horse to be broke to drive by the Mennonites and the doubletrees hit it's hocks or something along that line, it absolutely freaked out and forever after it was terrified when anything or anyone was behind it.

But I also think that some people only focus on the bad things they hear about them, and not the good. Just like any religion or culture or place or whatever, there are good and bad people, and good and bad horse trainers. My dad knows a lot of Mennonites that he trusts very well and sent his team to one for a tune-up before he brought them home, and they were great. 

Mennonites aren't all cruel, but it's true their horses are not a family member and are more seen as a vehicle or machine. Having said that, they are worth money and they aren't intentionally going to be cruel to them either. I'd like to hear from an Amish/Mennonites perspective on this.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

We have Amish groups around here in Oregon. I've never heard one good thing about a horse being sent to them. It may be just that their methods are different but I think even if the horse isn't seen as a family member, some of their methods just aren't necessary.


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## horselady36501 (Oct 29, 2009)

stalls have also changed back then they were more open and a horse could interact with his nabor now there only open vey is the fron sometims even just teh door. with solid walls in between. me i have pipe pannel stalls and only a few of thoes mostly just for summer months and the white horses so they dont burn it the texas heat. and back then we expected a horse to work for his food and put in a good days work thus being to tired to get into to much trouble, i too do not feed on a schedule and my horses do just fine. they are fed what hay i can get bremuda, alfala, wheat, oat. and grain depends on the horse and the hay quality as well as rain fall and grazing.


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

One thing about the stalls, there are a lot more people in urbanized areas keeping horses. When I was a kid I'd never heard of a boarding facility. Everyone had pasture or a pasture and a barn with some stalls in it. 

We lived in northeastern Oregon and never even had a shelter for the horses during winter. They got lots of feed and they did fine. Around where I live know there are horses blanketed on a cool night in the summer!


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## payette (Jun 3, 2010)

LOL! I trained my first horse when I was 11. She was a 4 y/o arab/QH cross, who was halterbroken when I got her. I had recently read "The Black Stallion", so I knew everything I needed to know. . . I rode that little horse everywhere, and she turned out bombproof, sane, spirited. . . absolutely a joy to ride, and be around! 
Ahh, blissful ignorance!


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## BaliDoll (Sep 21, 2009)

My mom tells me amazing stories that make us both wonder how she lived through her early horse years. She convinced her mother to buy a horse a man was starving to get back at his wife for divorcing him. They kept said horse in their back yard in a REGULAR HOUSE for a week before they found a boarding facility. She RODE that horse, without any prior lessons, to said boarding facility on a pretty busy street, with the bridle on incorrectly because she had taken it apart to clean it. (lol thats the best part of the story to me) I mean, a horse that dead broke not to pitch a fit, even if it was a little underweight (she said she wasn't too skinny yet but it was obvious the man wasn't feeding her) would be hard to find now. The fact my mom, at 11 could ride a horse she knew nothing about 5 miles to a boarding barn she found... it's just amazing to me. 

Horses are VERY spoiled now. Even Bali, who has been trained by the best and handled by only my family and I since birth, has weaving issues and very nervous tenancies when he thinks he's being left alone. Every horse seems to have an issue now, and from how my mom tells it, her first horses when she was 11 - 25 were AMAZING... but maybe that's how I'll be telling my kids about Bali and Foxy, too. Memories are always better than what really happened just by the slightest bit...


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## Solon (May 11, 2008)

What has really gotten out of hand is all the supplements. Back in the good ol' days you had hay and water and pasture. Now you have to have supplements for nerves, supplements for hair growth, supplements for everything.

I admit, I use one supplement and that's only because my horse had super bad feet and it's really helped keep his feet healthy. 

It's hilarious listening to some of the boarders where I'm at talk about all these things their horses need. Just bizarre.


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## RadHenry09 (Mar 22, 2009)

When I grew up riding horses they were on turn out 24/7 with run ins. Mostly ate oats and good quality grass hay. I rode just about anything I could get my hands on...naughty little ponies to 16 h horses. I think I was mostly young and didnt think about getting hurt or riding horses with issues. If I could ride it successfully( not being thrown ) it was a good horse. i didnt fall off alot so I must of been doing something right : ) 
Anyhow...I truly believe that horses are very spoiled and I know to a certain degree I am guilty of following certain trends in the horse world when it comes to taking care of them. I try not to get caught up in all of it and do what I feel is best for my horses.
I think CA said this .....Most horses are : Overfed and Under worked...

As far as the respect issue...I get looks from horse people and others when I discipline my horses for naughty behavior ..I hate horses that are pushy w/o ground manners. I know a lot of horses that will take off with you at the end of a lead, or push into you while leading also stepping all over you. With my own horses I make sure I take special attention in this area so that if anyone has to handle them they most likely will not act up on the lead.
When it comes to the disicpline of my child , I get "looks" from certain people , I am sure that they think I am too harsh but if she acts up or is rude I am going to be proactive about changing that behavior. No , it is unacceptable to be rude, disrespectful, pushy etc.. Horses and children are so much a like!


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## Madyson (Aug 27, 2009)

I got Rhythm as a yearling when I was 13. Everyone I knew in the horse world (except my trainer/his breeder) doubted me. They said that I was too young to even think about training a horse start-to-finish, especially since the most work he'd ever had done with him at the time was being led from the stall to pasture. People said that I would never be able to ride him until he was at least 6 years old. They said that he would turn into a nut-case if I didn't have work done with him before I could handle him.
But that didn't stop me from believing in myself and my horse. I remember when I was almost going to sell Rhythm because of what other people were saying. But then I realized that people were jealous of me as well. I know of so many people who would kill to have the opportunity that I had/have. I knew that I could prove people wrong, especially if I put my mind to it in the correct way.
Now, I have a horse that follows me around anywhere and everywhere, does anything I ask of willingly, whinnies at me every time he even hears my voice, etc. At his first show, people were making big offers on him, and nobody could believe that he was only four.

In reality, I think it really just depends on the person who is dealing with the horse, and in what way they deal with him/her, as well as the mindset.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

_"Was I young or delerious or were horses better trained back then?"_

Oh my what a question about times back when I had hair and a black beard
and before I drunk the beer which turned my hair grey and made my spectacles thicker. There was this horse of mine namely: Puddy the Golden Palomino. He used to lead me astray by taking me up to his favourite watering hole - an inn up by Gibbett Corner. Eventually, long it would have been prudent to depart, he would carry me back home, fast and furious down narrow trails through the pitch dark satanic woods which lay down in the valley. He'd get his bowl of oats - I'd get a thick ear from She 'who should have been obeyed'.
No they don't breed 'em like him any more - all I have now is a dapple grey Irish mare bossing me about and she is teetotal. She won't even mosey out after dark. But Puddy was a man's hoss, he was.


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