# i need help with dog training.



## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

Shock collars, if used properly are fine. They really understand the concept so you don't have to use them to much. If you get a remote training shock collar then they generally have a button that makes a noise first, then the other button shocks them. 

If you tell the dog to stop whatever it is doing, followed by the noise, followed by the shock, then they will soon realize it is better to just listen to you instead of getting shocked.

The only problem with this is you have to be supper vigilant about making sure you do the same process every time and don't miss any time. If you miss a time then the dog can figure out that you have to be present for the reprimand to come so they may do the behavior you are trying to fix when you aren't there.

Good luck and hope everything works out for you.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

the only bad thing about that is she doesn't bother them alot when we are out there, it's just the off chances she is let out unsupervised, but i am definitely taking this into consideration.

another thing i was told is to tie the dead carcass to her neck and leave her out in a kennel for 5-7 days or until the chicken rots, and no have any contact with her except to feed and water her, this method supposedly works, but where am i going to get a dead chicken? and what if it does work? then i'm back to square one with a stinky dog, because dogs can be pretty nasty and they like to eat dead and rotting things as well as roll in it.. so wouldn't she just enjoy this method more then just learn from it? but again it supposedly has really good outcomes.. so who knows!


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## Silvera (Apr 27, 2010)

I've never heard of doing that so can't really speculate on that. I can't see why it would work tho, I don't understand what the thought behind it would be. Its hard to see how the dog would react to it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JamieLeighx (Nov 27, 2010)

The dead chicken method worked on a friends dog , I'd give it a go although make sure your pup has all its vaccinations first incase it catches something
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i heard it only worked if it was the chicken she killed, and she hasn't killed one in months, so would a chicken she hasn't killed worked? i know a friend who has one that occasionally upturns with dead chickens so i could possibly use one of his. i too don't fully understand how the method would work but it's been proven to work.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

lilkitty90 said:


> i heard it only worked if it was the chicken she killed, and she hasn't killed one in months, so would a chicken she hasn't killed worked? i know a friend who has one that occasionally upturns with dead chickens so i could possibly use one of his. i too don't fully understand how the method would work but it's been proven to work.


Proven to work by whom exactly? 

Whoever it is shouldn't be allowed near animals, children or frankly even themselves. Lol

I can guess where the idea developed from and it's about as rational and intelligent as shooting yourself in the foot so you can get a verruca.......

Shocking, absolutely shocking.

Anyway your dog.

There's a really simple, way to stop this. Unfortunately however if the chicken trick is the best talent you can find locally to help you then it might be a case of accepting your dog has to go. I know its not what you want, but sometimes circumstances just don't allow.

Anyway I do hope you can sort it out and any help I can offer I will. If I can find some suicidal chickens (I might manage geese and ducks easy enough but not so many chickens round here) and a frenzied terrier, then I'll even video it for you.

In terms of the solution...... You have to override his natural instincts before they red zone. How? Give him a job. What job? His job...... Is to guard the chickens!

Crazy? Not at all. You are tapping into parts of his psychi that are actually the most powerful.

(I Can just imagine some people reactions reading this right now lol)

Let me give you an example. I came to horses from dogs. One dog I worked with was going to be destroyed because he would savage local farmers sheep and calves. The dog? A Rottweiler.

The court ( yes it was a destruction case) stated that i had to demonstrate his rehabilitation and use in order to allow him to be released to a new home.

This dog was the product of a guard dog mentality. Actually owned to guard tractors and other machinery. I took him to a disabled farmer in Wales I knew and asked to use him with his flock of sheep. (this farmer has no use of his legs so he relies on a quad bike to get around)

Rottweilers ARE sheepdogs believe it or not. With the right guidance, within minutes he was focussed and a different animal. So much so that he asked to keep him. He has since written his own reflection on this (including for the court) that he has found the best sheepdog he has ever owned, and without any training.

There's your solution.


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## JamieLeighx (Nov 27, 2010)

lilkitty90 said:


> i heard it only worked if it was the chicken she killed, and she hasn't killed one in months, so would a chicken she hasn't killed worked? i know a friend who has one that occasionally upturns with dead chickens so i could possibly use one of his. i too don't fully understand how the method would work but it's been proven to work.


It would have to be a chicken she has killed because a chicken she hasnt would have no relevance to her. If she killed another one tie it to her neck straight away until it starts to rot and she definately will not go near them again because she wont want something rotting tied back onto her.
I would try training first though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ilovemyPhillip (Apr 4, 2009)

I mean, if she kills a chicken do it. Whether it sounds 'inhumane', or it sounds 'horrible and irresponsible' - do it. I have a feeling it will work. Farmers around here to get rid of coyotes, they kill one from the pack and hang it til it rots. It keeps the pack away.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

ilovemyPhillip said:


> I mean, if she kills a chicken do it. Whether it sounds 'inhumane', or it sounds 'horrible and irresponsible' - do it. I have a feeling it will work. Farmers around here to get rid of coyotes, they kill one from the pack and hang it til it rots. It keeps the pack away.


In that case you would need to kill a local dog and hang it over the chicken pen.................


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## Missdv (Nov 4, 2010)

I agree with Doe, but have not seen anything as to the type of dog, it may have only been playing with your chickens. My Lab/Golden Retriever killed 2 of the neighbors chickens and one rooster playing with them. She was having fun and chasing them, she gets rough with my cat also, so I have been working her on leash with sitting and leave it exercises. I agree you have to give her a job and refocus her attention, it may be boredom that's causing it.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

The dog makes no connection between killing a chicken and having a rotting one adorn his neck. Why not contain the pup when no one will be home? A pup gets bored and soon starts looking for something to do whether it's going after chickens or scattering the garbage all over the house.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

she is contained when no one is home, but occasionally she will dart out the door, or we will let her out and look away for a split second, i thought about the giving her a job but i don't really understand the concept, i did however think about setting her in a pen with the chickens and me, and when she focused on me and was calm with the chickens, reward her. and when she acted overly excited or aggressive, make her uncomfortable by fussing at her, as for her Breed she is a Australian Shepherd/Brittany Spaniel/ Blue Heeler mix.


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

Please don't put a dead chicken around your dog's neck. 

The only way to stop a dog from chasing chickens is proper training. You have a 3 second window of time to make a correction if you want the dog to associate that correction with the behavior they're doing. 

That means that by the time you grab the dead chicken and tie it around your dog's neck, all you have is a dog with a dead animal attached to him wondering what the heck is wrong with his human. He's not making that connection.

Keep the dog on a leash outside. Don't leave him unsupervised around the chickens. Practice basic obedience around the chickens, and get control of the dog. It's simple as that but in a lot of cases it take a lot of work to get the kind of control your looking for. You need to plan on at least a couple weeks to a couple months of training and I'd suggest hiring a trainer to help you.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

lilkitty90 said:


> the only bad thing about that is she doesn't bother them alot when we are out there, it's just the off chances she is let out unsupervised, but i am definitely taking this into consideration.





lilkitty90 said:


> she is contained when no one is home, but occasionally she will dart out the door, or we will let her out and look away for a split second,



I do not understand this at all. I live in a town, if my dogs were out loose and not in a secure area they would be hit by cars. If she is darting out of the door, then you need to train her to wait, or sit so this cannot happen. It is never acceptable for a dog to dart of the door, that is the fault of the human. While you are training the dog, train the humans to move the dog away, and block the door with their leg. 

Your dog should not be with the chickens. She needs to be leashed when she goes out, so that she cannot kill them. If she is outdoor a lot, she needs his own fenced in area. If not, just take her out on a leash, sure it takes some human effort, but I do it all the time, I live in a town and do not have a fenced yard. 

I would imagine if it were a cars tire the dog was going after you would stop this opportunity from happening, so do that now for the chickens (and other prey animals the dog might encounter).


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

well i don't live in town, i live way out in the country, i also live down a very long drive way, about half a mile or so. there is basically NO way she is going to get hit by a car. its the beauty of living in the country, as well as no leash law around here, and honestly when it's 4 am i expect to trust that i can let her out and stand at the door, and wait for her to come back like all the other dogs do, she's just hard headed and has a higher prey drive then my GSD i assume. our GSD literally slept with the chicks when they were little peeps. Claire is a house dog, and still a young one at that, about 8 months old tops. like i said definitely not my choice to get rid of her i would definitely like to work through it ,but my mom is expecting at least a good dent in training in a week. i think the best method like i said would be the leave it, but then she gets so excited what if she ignores me? we are also working on her recall command, she came from a VERY abusive home, and therefore has a hard time trusting. she listens to me best, but when she gets to excited sometimes she ignores commands, she's also learning stay, to wait at the door no matter if it's open and not come out unless told to, which she listens to 90% of the time. but as i said sometimes she gets to excited and darts out the door anyway, but she's still young and is definitely learning and knows a good bit for her age anyway, especially comming from a bad background.

and here are some pictures of her.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Two things.

One - I get that you are in the country and you want to be able to let your dogs loose. I don't agree with it, but addressing your issue based on that point - 

Firstly, even if the ultimate goal is for her to be trustworthy loose, right now she is NOT. She has shown you that. So the first commitment has to be to make sure, until she IS trained to leave the chickens alone, that she is not left with them unattended.

You have a dog with herding blood, she is just following her nature. Any dog is going to be inclined to have interest in chickens, but a herding dog in particular is going to have that overpowering chase instinct so when the chickens run, her instincts over-ride just about anything else.

And just to make things a little harder on the poor pup, her other side of the bloodlines (the brittany) is a very active hunting dog who also has a very strong chase instinct. A breed that generally has a reputation as cat killers, as well. So she is fighting against a lot of history there. All things to take into consideration, in the future, when selecting a dog you intend to have around your livestock.

Your very best bet in this case would to get involved with a herding trainer that can give you a couple sessions with your dog to help her learn some boundaries when it comes to livestock. Most stockdog trainers are willing to address issues like this pretty cheaply. And you may find you have a sport/hobby you enjoy with your dog, in the process. This is the best advice I can give you, but I suspect it will be out of the question.

Your option, if you are not willing to contact a trainer, is, as coffee suggested, keeping the dog on leash and working around the chickens - correct her (not beat her, or hit her, or kick her, or tie rotting carcasses to her) when her attention is fixated on the chickens and reward her attention on you. 

None of this can be done in a weeks time. If keeping her leashed and supervised until you HAVE had time to properly train her (several weeks to months, as Coffee mentioned) is not possible for you, then I suggest finding a better suited home for her now is probably what you should go ahead and do.

Just as a final curiosity - your dog is a double dilute. Double dilutes are very, very often deaf. Are you absolutely, 100% certain she can hear?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

lilkitty90 said:


> and honestly when it's 4 am i expect to trust that i can let her out and stand at the door, and wait for her to come back like all the other dogs do,


Well you can't. She needs to be leashed until she has been trained. Just because you say 'I expect to be able to trust her' doesn't make it the case.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

yes AlexS i know that but for the last couple of months she HAS been trusted and she did fine, but then all of a sudden wham she starts attacking again, so now no one can take her out but me, and we are working on the stay command so she doesn't bolt when someone else opens the door, when i take her out she's on a leash, but apparently she doesn't like using the bathroom when your looking so i ahve to take her out twice as much, so that i don't have to worry about her using the bathroom in the house, because thats a whole other issue,

Indy, we thought that when we brought her home, so i've constantly kept up testing her hearing by making noises behind her or lightly whispering to her and she can hear luckily, things would be so much harder if she couldn't though. i don't kick or hit her nor do i intend to, it's just upsetting in my opinion to hit a dog, especially if they are running around, and you catch it and then hit it. because you've just taught it that being caught means it gets slapped. 

we are working on taking her out and socializing her with the chickens, be it the chickens are VERY afraid of her and run when she's in sight, but we just tell her NO when she gets excited and so far it's working. but we'll see.


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Rotweilers were traditionally bred in Germany - in the region of the town of Rotweil - to herd cattle. They have an inbred ability to round up cattle, sheep and horses. Likewise in the days before artificial insemination, Staffies were bred to work together and herd bulls. 
Sadly some breeders have encouraged the development of the aggression in the Rotweiler breed and have trained them to be aggressive guard dogs. It is the dog's body weight - usually in excess of 50 kilos- and their lack of fear of humans which attracts the guard dog breeders. Most British police forces prefer to train German Shepherds for police work. 

However I owned a Springer Spaniel once who once ran off and killed ten prize chickens within a few minutes. Of course I was prosecuted since we lived in the countryside amongst farmers. I soon discovered that the dog, which could smell chickens from a distance could not be trusted off the lead near any type of bird. I had taken him to a dog trainer and he was positive that bird hunting was in the dogs genes and there was little that I could do to deter the trait. I managed to keep the dog out of trouble until one day he again escaped from my car, and disappeared through a hedge. Within10 minutes I was facing an irate farmer who claimed that my dog had killed some of his chickens. I was prosecuted and the judge ordered that my dog be put down.

My own belief is that when training horse or dog, we are bringing out traits of behaviour which are already inherent in the animal. In training we are actually training them to respond to instruction (by cue/aid) rather than teaching them some completely new behaviour. Asking an animal to do something is one problem - whereas demanding that a dog or horse does NOT do something is altogether more difficult. Whilst my own 9yo Rotweiler is very friendly towards humans - even strangers - I can't trust him within a hundred yards of a cat. 

I'd like to think that negative enforcement works but we deter our horses and dogs from misbehaving by instantly chastising them - but if the owner is not present then the horse or dog will revert to an innate behaviour pattern.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Barry, I am sorry you experienced that, the laws are so harsh in England (I am English but live in the US) a dog here can bite someone on your property and not ordered to put to sleep. 

Lilkitty, so you have a second issue, you are house training too. I have no option but to take my dogs out on a leash, my one older female will not go if the grass is wet, but she needs to go out, so I end up taking her every 20 mins at times, until her need is dire enough to have to cope with the wet grass. 
You need to be responsible and only take the dog out on a leash, I don't really care how much effort this takes, it needs to be done. 
If the dog is going in the house, you need to get them on a routine, where you will take them out every hour, when they go outside, massive prize, massive treat. When you have this down, you can move to every 2 hours and so on.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

oh AlexS she is potty Trained, but oddly enough my sister has a friend that comes over also named Claire, when human claire is here, dog claire pees in the house, no matter what! it's insane, and the moment human claire leaves, dog claire is perfectly fine again, human claire isn't mean or anything to dog claire and actually they are really good friends and cuddle on the couch, but dog claire peed on human claire's pillow twice, on a different pillow once and in my stepdad's chair, as well as on the floor, in only 2 days, and the moment the girl leaves the dog hasn't peed in the floor, but that was only the first time the girl came over, she was over the last 2 days and the dog has yet to pee in the house again, so i'm hoping it was just a freak accident, it was really weird though. i do tend to take her out every 2-3 hours during the day and not at night, but just whenever i get up in the morning, whethers thats 3 am or 7 am, she has never had a problem waiting until the girl came, but only while the girl was here, and then fine again after. though she did take longer to potty train then any of our other dogs, but i believe she's got it, i think like some horses that need it showed to them time and time again to understand i think she is the same way, with a thick skull and needs to be showed repetively what she is suposed to do. so i think that will also be put in use with teaching her about the chickens, just needs to be shown, ALOT, that chickens are friends, not food.


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## arashowjumper (Apr 28, 2011)

i have been in the dogs world since i was in collage that makes me 8 yrs dalmatian breeder and 5 yrs doberman breeder.
i asked a friend who is a pretty good trainer about ur case and he said.
"you cant correct a dog something you havent teach him to do"
i would leave the electronic collar to an expert they can correct and ruin a dog in a simple mistake.
i pweronally love the chain collars used properly they are an awsome weapon.
here is a short video explaining how yo put it on a dog properly




 
ok now here what Ivan or I would do.
we would put some chickens in a cage or a pen somewhere the puppy can have use a leash or rope moderately long, get the pupy close to the chickens at the outside of the cage.
and wait observing evertime he stares, barks, move forward to the chiken, or anyreaction like that correct that means you will pull the collar and realease.
just pull one shock reallise and say no or shh! that will get your dog attention back to you and ignoreing the chickens thats the main reaction we want ignore the chickens.
if he barks growls or gets tensed next to the chcikens.
make him lay down next to them, sideways gran a chicken and show it to him form top carefully u have him controled (this is mostly in case he is agressive to them).
remmeber once he ignores the chickens re enforce the action with a Good Boy and pet him.
be sure he doesent have contact with the chickens without supervision.cos getting another chicken can ruin the progress.
then do it with a larger rope and loose chikens. until he is able to ve with out leash, rope or anything.
i hope this helps, he is really good


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

The average person doesn't need to be using a choke collar. I'd rather they use a prong if a correction collar is needed, they are actually safer for the dog and require much less force for a proper correction. 

That said, the chain collar in that video is too wide, if you're going to use one, make it thin regardless of the size of the dog. A wide, long chain collar is practically useless.

I will once again say that the OP would be better off finding a trainer to work with to resolve this problem. Doing it on your own without any training experience can at best take a long, long time and at worst get one of the chickens killed.



> , just needs to be shown, ALOT, that chickens are friends, not food.
> ​


Agreed on the repetition point. However, chickens will never be friends, they will always be food or something to herd. The best you can hope for is to control that behavior, not remove it.


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## arashowjumper (Apr 28, 2011)

i know the collar is to wide is just a good video to show how to put it on, i also agreethat if u have a proffesional trainer able to work with the dog thats ALWAYS the best option


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## TheQuietGirl (May 21, 2011)

It seems like alot of people have given you advice and it's up to you which one you chose at this point. But whichever one you pick just make sure it works for Claire. Every dog is different. But please, please, PLEASE, keep her on a leash as much as you can! It might be super annoying for you but it will keep Claire out of trouble and I'm sure your mom will be much happier because of it. 
P.S Claire loves like the totally opposite of my dog Dewey (he is all black, with brown eyes)and they are about the same age and their personalltities are super similar. Freaky. Maybe my dog is your dog's evil half-brother or something!:?


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

Likkity
For much of my adult life I have kept dogs. Mostly I have lived in a semi rural environment - out in the country on what is a fairly densely populated island - Britain. Of late I have drifted towards owning rescued dogs. My old dog Duke was a large old fashioned Staffordshire bull terrier - a breed often confused with pit bulls. My present dog is a rescued Rotweiler.

The first lesson to learn when working with certain breeds of dogs is that it is the owner's responsibility to protect the dog from other humans. Not all people love dogs. You should never put your dog Claire in danger by allowing her to mix with chickens - she might welll kill them. The act of killing will put her in danger of your mother - who sooner or later will either beat the dog or will call for it to be sent away. 
In reality you have two training objectives - one to try to deter the dog from chasing chickens and the second to plead for clemency/forgiveness from your mother. Whilst the dog should be restrained - so should the chickens. 

And then there is the delicate issue of which life is worth more - the dog's or the chicken's. (However I accept that owning chickens can be fun too).

Personally from what you have written, I'd be looking for a new home for the dog - it is too late to try to erase an inborn trait of behaviour. 

In the UK most dog training is done in groups. Classes are formed with a mix of owners and dogs of all breeds. One objective is socialisation but some dogs seem to learn better by copying the behaviour of others. Success depends fundamentally upon the ability of the trainer, who in effect is training both dog and handler. Experienced long term dog owners can sometimes go it alone but the independent dog trainer is able to watch from afar the response of dog to owner.

We have out in the British countryside, dogs bred especially to follow the shoot. Their job is to collect fallen pheasants and partridges. Such dogs either have an ability by selective breeding or they don't. Sheep dogs either round up by nature or they don't. It is very difficult to instil the behaviour in a reluctant dog. Likewise the killing instinct in a dog is either there, (maybe dormant) or it isn't.

My 50 kilo Rottie would not aim to kill a cat, but in chasing it away, (often so as to protect the wild birds who feed in my garden}, he might collide with it and the impact might kill the smaller cat. That result would perhaps justify a plea for 'manslaughter' rather than 'murder'. Luckily for me and my Rottie, hereabouts cats are pretty agile.

Sadly your Claire has made an enemy in your mum. Maybe you could take her to adult training classes?


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Coffee, Indy could you please your dog training experience level (I am familiar with it the OP is likely not). Thanks.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Alex. sure. :lol:

I breed, raise, and train herding Collies, and have trialed most of my dogs competitively, and have titled them. All but my two youngster dogs (I have 7 dogs total) also have their CGC and their TDI certification. My oldest dog (an Australian Shepherd, BTW) was also extensively competed in obedience, agility, and dabbled in flyball.

I also keep a flock of free range chickens that are loose on my property during daylight hours. 

My dogs are NOT loose on the property. They are worth too much to me as beloved pets (as well as financially) to risk them being injured, shot by a farmer neighbor, hit by a car, or wander off to be bred by the neighbor's mastiff. I live in a very rural area too, but protection of my dogs is a priority to me.

It is one of my dog's job in particular to make sure the chickens are up in the coop at night and she knows how to herd them appropriately. All my herding dogs are actually started on chickens first, before moving up to larger livestock.

I agree with Barry in the sense that Claire's instinct to herd and chase is inborn, and is not going to go away. You can't expect her to just not do it. It's in her blood. That is why your better choice is to teach her to have an appropriate outlet for that behavior, and the guidance of a good instructor who knows herding dogs. It does not cost a lot to have just one particular issue addressed. And being in a very rural area works to your benefit in this case - good herding/stockdog instructors rarely ARE in cities, as most people frown on a herd of sheep in the back yard. :lol:

The upside is, you could not only have a dog not posing a danger to your chickens, but she could actually be a useful and valuable tool around the place if you bothered to put the effort into having her trained correctly. A good stockdog is incredibly helpful in so many ways.

That being said - I am of the personal opinion that no dog, EVER, should be allowed off leash, outside of a fenced yard - unless their recall is absolutely 100%.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

well claire's Recall isn't 100%, but Sophie's our GSD's are, and since neither leave the yard, if you call sophie claire comes as well. what i find ost Odd is tht Claire wont try to Herd the horses, but will try to "herd" the chickens (IE chasing them) but Sophie doesn't bother the chickens, yet she tries to herd the horses which they dont like to we don't take her around the horses often, as we are afraid she will get nippy, i don't think my mom will go for a trainer, and i have to use my money for my 3 horses, so for now she's just always on a leash and we'll work on teaching her to behave around the chickens, and especially the leave it command,


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

lilkitty90 said:


> i don't think my mom will go for a trainer, and i have to use my money for my 3 horses,


LilKitty, have you even bothered to look into what is in your area, or the cost of the trainers?

Might be worth doing before you just dismiss the idea out of hand.

The stockdog trainer I used to work with was $15 dollars for a group lesson (only $10, actually, if you did only a single run on the sheep with your dog, and then an additional $5 for a second run) and $30 dollars for a single private lesson. It's not like we are talking about several hundred bucks here or something. Even if you could only arrange a single private lesson with a trainer, one could give you some tips and teach you proper handling techniques and proper forms of discipline to continue to work with Claire at home.

I can't imagine a difference of $30 dollars or so means taking food out of your horses mouths. If it does, there is obviously a much bigger issue here.


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## amymarie57 (Feb 20, 2011)

Do you have any friends/neighbors with a bold rooster? At my papa's barn there's this rogue rooster that doesn't take crap from any of the dogs. If they get within a couple feet he'll chase the dogs down. They know not to mess with him, so they stay away from the rooster AND all chickens in general.

lol I know that's a kind of odd solution but it's a lesson your pup will never forget if the chicken/rooster was to turn on him.


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Just read through this. I think Indy gave great advice from someone well versed in the area you need input from. 

My dad trains dogs -upland bird, water retrievers & utility dogs. My mom keeps 15 laying hens free range. His Drathaar (though not a herding breed) has learned to put them in their roost at night. I find it amusing the bird dog is a chicken herder. I jokingly tell my dad that his dog is going to try & make friends with the pheasants & quail when hunting now  Think we may have to teach my Kurzhaar to bring the horses up from pasture next lol!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> Think we may have to teach my Kurzhaar to bring the horses up from pasture next lol!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


LOL That would be great! Why not? Kurzhaars/GSPs are very smart, athletic dogs - he would certainly be up for it! :lol:


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Indyhorse said:


> LOL That would be great! Why not? Kurzhaars/GSPs are very smart, athletic dogs - he would certainly be up for it! :lol:


Thanks Indy! I think he'd love it. I've had several akc GSP's but Dell is the first I've had imported from Germany. Man does he have some stamina! Adding a couple of pics, well, just because I love him 

Dell Vom Gansehimmel aka "Smelly Delly" 







Just as he was about to pick up a pheasant.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Random question, fftopic: but...

It'sd my understanding that, (like so many other breeds) the GSPs and the Kurzhaars have gone in different directions with purpose, do you notice a big difference with Dell as opposed to the GSPs you have had in the past?


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

He is bigger (not in hunting shape he's about 85 lbs, hunting season about 75) He's much more relaxed in general than the gsp's I've owned. He seems to have a bit keener nose (he is birdy as all get out) and has a massive heart girth. He can literally run alongside me on the 4-wheeler at 20mph for an hour and not be the least tired. He LOVES water work & bails in like a big air dock dog. I couldn't get my female gsp in the water unless she fell out of the boat lol! In general personality wise he is very similar, he's a big lover! I've found the biggest difference is that he seems a bit more focused\intelligent\trainable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

Awesome, thanks for the info! He sounds like a fun dog!


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## coffeeaddict (Jun 18, 2010)

Alex, I've been training dogs professionally for the last decade (probably more at this point). I've trained at least 500 dogs myself, more if you count group classes.

I have herding dogs (Aussies and Collies) and have titled them as well as other breeds up to the CDX level. Working on Utility now, aiming for an OTCH with both the Aussies before I'm 80, LOL. 

And just because I hate it when trainers go on about their herding dogs (I'm so guilty, haha) I have to say I've gotten a CD on a borzoi too, those hounds can rock it just as much as any BC! (they just rock it slower...)

Anyway, lilkitty, I understand not having the money for a trainer, but I will second the suggestion to look at a group class instead of private sessions or board & train. I may know a few places in NC that have reasonably priced classes if you let me know what area you're in.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I think Indy's advice is probably your best bet. Train the dog to herd chickens and behave appropriately around them. I doubt though if you will ever be able to leave your dog unsupervised with the chickens.
I had a couple dogs as a kid that killed chickens. We got a puppy from a friend. He taught our 5 year old German Shepherd to kill chickens. The shepherd had never chased anything on our farm until then. 
We were never able to totally work the dogs out of that behavior. They would be fine if you were watching, but as soon as your back was turned the dogs would go after the hens. We ended up keeping the dogs in kennels. They were only let out if someone was watching them.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Doe said:


> In that case you would need to kill a local dog and hang it over the chicken pen.................


 
:rofl:


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Thanks Coffee and Indy, I was hoping that explaining your experience levels would help the OP to hear what you were saying.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

well first off Dell is gorgeous! i love GSP's

Indy it's not that i can't afford it exactly it's my mom has it in her mind that we can't so therefore she wont pay for that because we should be able to do it ourselves, i would take it upon myself to spend the money, but since i don't have a job, my money is essentially their money, as well as if it was my money to spend and even if it's not i'd still spend it anyway, i don't have a license to go find a trainer or to take my dog up for a lesson, and mom sure wont take me because she's a busy woman and barely has time to do what she needs most of the time, but for now she's on a leash and we are teaching what we can, but in a few months i get my license and i should be able to go track one down, just have to buy myself some time with the rents by teaching her myself for now. though it wont be 100%, and definitely not fool proof, but she doensn't go outside without me now, my mom actually made me pretty mad lastnight by taking the dog out without a leash, i swear she's setting her up to fail, though she was watching claire, what is she going to do when claire takes off after the chickens? blindly chase her through the night trying to stop her? nooooo of course not. so i had to grab a leash and go hook her up and take her for walk and let her go to the bathroom.


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## JustAwesome (Jun 22, 2011)

I have only read your OP!

From my view this is human error, You bring a puppy into a home with chickens, remember dogs have natural traits, puppy 'plays/hurts/kills' chicken and then human punishes it, Puppy does NOT understand WHY! It comes naturally!

I am a strong believer in 'once they get a taste, majority of the time there's no turning back' and if it was a farmers puppy that done that, I could see that puppy and a bullet meeting! - as sad and horrible as that seems!


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## xxBarry Godden (Jul 17, 2009)

This thread on a horse forum is all about a dog.
The OP's questions have been pretty much answered by all the contributors. Put very crudely, the dog is not fit for purpose - not because the dog is bad but because the needs of the household to which the dog belongs conflict with the innate instincts of the dog.

When I look down at my little 16yo terrier *****, I can see the head of a Jack Russel and the body of a collie. She has all the instincts of a killer - which indeed is what she is. Yesterday she was trying to flip out a plump, juicy but very dead fish from the pond in the garden. She would have eaten it, if she could have reached it through the anti-heron netting. 

Ten years ago I rescued her from a home in a hotel for which she was grossly unsuitable. She's now coming to the end of her life on this planet - she's bent, crooked, stiff, lumpy, deaf, part blind and very slow. However, somehow despite her very obvious frailties she can still boss the Rottweiler about; she can bark to tell me of visitors and she will follow me where ever I go. Her role in my life is that of companion, a task which she takes very seriously even if she is very old - say the equivalent of 112 years in human terms. When we go for our evening stroll around the village - I have to put one foot in front of the other and watch to see if she has kept up. The route is getting shorter and shorter.

All those years ago when I took on responsibility for her, I asked myself whether her killer instincts would present a problem. I knew that I wouldn't be able to keep chickens, gerbils, rabbits, pidgeons or even another terrier *****. Nor could I leave her chained up to an outdoor kennel and neither could I go away to a fancy hotel and leave her alone to yap in the bedroom.

But when in the not too distant future she goes to sleep and doesn't wake up, I am going to cry. Just what am I going to do with the 'lefties' off my plate? 

What's the connection with horses? Well, many of the problems we face with them are a result of choosing the wrong horse in the first place.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

sorry if you have already answered this but how old is the puppy and what commands does she know ?


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

well she was here first, the chickens came AFTER. when we didn't need them... trust me on that one.. the puppy is around 8 months but we don't know for sure, as she was just given to us. right now she knows Sit, 100% she's learning Stay and leave it, and she did have a good recall, but she fell back so we are reworking on that as well.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

i just wanted to update that she is doing great so far with this method of training, and she hasn't bothered the chickens yet, though she has been on a leash. i have walked her by them and stuff, and we havel et her out twice without a leash, but me walking with her. so far we have good progress.

i do also want to update, that Claire got fixed te other day so yay! that means we are keeping her. but because of this, she got sick and had really bad controlling her poo, and she was throwing up alot, and we asked the vet and they just said it was because we didn't wait long enough to feed her again, so we pulled food away for that whole day, but because she poo'd in the house and didn't get reprimanded for it because she really couldn't help herself, she has taken to going to the bathroom in the house AGAIN so we are redoing that training.. again. lol


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

the killer, as i am now calling her has struck again, she doesn't bother the chickens anymore and doesn't even really flick an ear at them. but my sister got a guinea pig... Twix was in her cage in my room and the cage was under a blanket, to keep her away from drafts.

we went to a friends house and when we came back, my bedroom door was open, the blanket was drug all the way down the hall way and the cage was mutilated. twix is nowhere to be found just some bits of hair in some places, there is NO blood, and nothing to say she may be dead, but we've searched everywhere and can't find her. claire must've gotten a wild hair up her button to even try to get in my room to destroy the cage, she didn't bother the guinea pig at all when we had her out, aside from sniffing it really, but i think the best bet may be to find a new home for her. i really don't want to, but i don't really have much of a choice, she has become a bit of an avid killer, and i know it's high prey drive, but still. first it was 3 baby possums, and then 2 chickens, and now the guinea pig. i really don't want to chance her eating a cat next, she doesn't bother the cats, but she also didn't bother the guinea pig and ate it anyway, so i'm afraid she'll hurt a cat next or something.


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## Indyhorse (Dec 3, 2009)

What she has done is not unusual or even surprising for a high drive herding dog (particularly one of predominately aussie decent) when put in a situation and home that is unsuitable and totally unprepared to provide for the dog's needs. I'm sorry it came to this, and I am sorry about Twix. 

Please don't just stick her on craigslist or dump her at hsus. Make an effort on her part, even if you wouldn't contact a trainer for her yourself, do it for her now, perhaps the trainer will know a good home to place her in, or a rescue that is experienced in working with high drive dogs. And for yourself, in the future, don't get a dog without researching the breed backgrounds first.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

oh definitely not, i don't hate the dog and i don't wish a bad ending for her, she's definitely going somewhere i know she'll be well taken care of, i love the dog to bits and i wish it hadn't come to this, but it's not my household to control, i didn't think a guinea pig needed to come into the home, but it did, and i did what i could to keep it safe but she even broke into my room when my door was shut. not much else i couldn't have done to prevent aside from not getting it. she may stay or she may not it's not my decision to make, all i can do is continue to work with her on such things. i think now it may come to when we are asleep, or not home she'll be put in a crate that i picked up for her.


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