# Wild Horses- A Viable Solution?



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

"As the non-reproducing herds started becoming too large"

Am I not seeing something, or should that be "too old"? Because the shape of the population pyramid would be my main concern with "non-reproducing" herds.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well, I haven't studied it out in detail but here's the gist of my thoughts.

At the moment, the sterile herds would be huge. All the horses in the holding pens plus the reduction of the wild herds to the levels that the BLM believes the land will support.

The sterile non-producing herds would start to decrease by attrition right away. How much and how fast I don't know and probably no one else does either, although those dealing with the problem would have a much better guess/estimate.

I do know, okay (read), that wild horses live about 20 years where those in holding pens live to about 30 years.

At any rate, once the attrition was determined, the size of the producing herds that would produce a non increasing population based on adoptions and transfers to the non-producing herds could be determined.

There's way more horses at present than the BLM feels there should be so it would definitely take a few years to balance out. But it would seem to be a matter of just determining how many producing herds there could be in order for the entire population to be decreasing.

Then it would just be a matter of time.

There is one thought about 214 million acres that wild horses have been entirely removed from. I personally would like to see that used for at least part of the non producing herds for some period of time.

Based on above, all of the wild horses that are alive today will be dead in 20 years.

So to me it seems as though it could all boil down to some knowledgeable people taking some serious looks at resources and some number crunching with the problem becoming a non problem in 20 years or less.

With the result being a permanent number of wild reproducing and non-reproducing herds. Placed far enough apart of course for no intermingling.

These are just my untested thoughts. I'm in a vacuum here.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Consider that if all the wild stallions were rounded up and gelded, in 20 years there would be zero population of wild horses. So it would seem that all would be needed would be to calculate or accurately estimate the size of reproducing herds needed to supply the adoption demand plus replenish the herds that were selected to be non-reproducing.

Again, just seems like such a no brainer to me.

In my opinion, many of the horse advocate groups are as irresponsible as the most irresponsible horse breeders or puppy mills.

They stretch the facts and in some cases are downright deceptive.

Same is true for the BLM. They claim that a herd will double every four years. With 50% of the herd being female, that would only happen if every single female was fertile, conceived and gave birth to an offspring that would reach adulthood each and every year.

Here on the ranch a 50% calf crop is estimated from non-pregnancies, still births, early death, and predation. At that rate it would take 8 years to double.

Don't know what the ratio would be on wild horses but it'd be a lot longer than four years for certain.

So both the advocates and the BLM are stretching the truth. If they can't sit down and have an honest discussion it is difficult to have a productive result and the horses continue to suffer in what many consider inhumane holding pens.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

@Hondo, has anyone from the Cloud Foundation responded to your email?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

No, nothing from the Cloud Foundation yet. And sadly, I really don't expect it. They believe, or they think they believe, their heart is in the right place, but it isn't, IMO.

I watched a recent video which included Ginger giving a talk to a group of supporters. In the video, there were three people in the midst of a very tame wild herd. One was a darter. From about 100 feet she successfully darted a mare. The mare startled, bolted, and ran maybe 200 feet as did the rest of the "wild" herd, stopped and went back to grazing.

There are a few small feral herds that are near where they get lots of vacationing visitors and become very gentle. This was one of those herds.

Ginger and the other groups insist that darting is a viable solution but it definitely is not. I spent 4 summers camping East of Carson City, Nevada where i came upon one or another feral herd 2 to 3 times each week hiking on foot. Around 1/8th mile is the closest I ever got to any and depending on the coverage, sometimes 1/4 mile. They are as spooky as deer, or more.

The herds I saw represent most of the feral herds. There is no way there could ever be enough darters to make a dent and if there were, they could not get close enough for a shot. 1/8 mile is several times the range of a dart.

And in her speech, Ginger insisted that if managed properly, the horse population could self regulate. well, that's just not true across the board. The small herd of 60 or so that Cloud is is does self regulate somewhat because of the harshness of the geography. One year not a single baby made it to the end of it's first year.

But that herd is the exception. And they get darted as well. If the horses could self regulate, why then dart? Saber tooth tigers regulated in the past, but they died out.

And so since my views are so against what they insist on, I'm doubting a response.

If they could just wake up and really see what they are doing, I do believe they'd turn around as I very much believe they are for the horses.

If I thought darting would do more than a drop in the bucket, I'd volunteer.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The herds of feral ponies in the UK aren't quite the same as the herds in the US as apart from the ponies that get frequently abandoned on there they all belong to someone
They're controlled to some extent by rounding them up and castrating the males so only a set number of stallions are left 
It works to a certain extent but a lot still get sent to feed zoo animals, pet food or for the dinner tables in Europe as the numbers just exceed the amount of land they need to stay healthy


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

jaydee said:


> The herds of feral ponies in the UK aren't quite the same as the herds in the US as apart from the ponies that get frequently abandoned on there they all belong to someone
> They're controlled to some extent by rounding them up and castrating the males so only a set number of stallions are left
> It works to a certain extent but a lot still get sent to feed zoo animals, pet food or for the dinner tables in Europe as the numbers just exceed the amount of land they need to stay healthy


Yeah, I didn't think that would work very well. Just "reducing" the number of stallions is unpredictable on how it much it would reduce births.

My notion is to have a balance of reproducing and non-reproducing herds. The non-reproducing herds would have 100% geldings. Then transferring mares from the reproducing to non-reproducing herds would produce a definite calculable reduction in births in the reproducing herds.

In time, this could be adjusted where there were no extra unwanted births at all.

Just a matter of arithmetic and of course doing it.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I'd almost guarantee you will not get a reply because it is not an option they want to discuss. Which is too bad.

Self regulate. *sigh*
Before that happens wildlife and rangeland grasses would be completely destroyed by complete mismanagement(even more than now) before they start dying off from starvation.

Darting may be an option for the few horses that hang out right in Stagecoach, Dayton and Virginia City as they are barely feral due to people feeding them. But like you witnessed, the herds farther out away from the public eye, not an option. I too have been in the parts of Nevada not a lot of people have seen and the BLM claims there are no horses. Seen horses and couldn't get within a mile of them in rough country horseback.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I got to almost making friends with one stallion I saw often. He was beautiful and curios. I'd set and look at him and he'd stretch his neck at me. Maybe a football field or less. The herd would be way way off and when the lead horse said it was time to leave, the stallion would take off after them.

One day I noticed his herd was significantly smaller. Some time later, day, week, less than a month, I saw another stallion with a small herd that looked like some of his. Then one day I saw "my" stallion limping badly on one fore. And a few days later I saw the new stallion with all of the mares.

I wanted badly to do something for "my" stallion and actually got pretty close, but there was nothing I could do but let nature take it's course. I did not see him again after that. He was about 10 miles East of Minden.

Watching The Adventures of Cloud brought back some of those memories.

There was one feral herd near Minden that had a wild horse that "grew" a halter


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I wonder if the mares would stay in the non-reproduction herds?
They'd have to be a long distance apart or they'd soon find their way back to a stallion based herd - the natural instinct to reproduce is really strong.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Off hand I'd say at least 100 miles, maybe more. The BLM should have a handle on how far the wild horses roam. That would be a basis for how far apart the herds needed to be.

I don't think a mare would take off across the country in search of a mate. Just not that safe for a lone horse. Survival instinct is strong also.

The whole idea seems so simple, I just don't understand why it wasn't done in the very beginning.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Sounds good in theory, perhaps, but not so simple in actual real time, JMO
First, in those producing herds,there are going to be colts produced,which will be driven out of the herd, when they reach sexual maturity. Those bachelor studs will be driven to find mares, regardless of distance
Round up every stud and castrate them-again, sound simple, but doable? Only need to miss a few.
Remove stallions from herds , and you change true wild herd dynamics, and you have in essence, a modified domestic herd
What happens when one or more ranch stallions escape_ start a square one?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Sounds good in theory, perhaps, but not so simple in actual real time, JMO
> First, in those producing herds,there are going to be colts produced,which will be driven out of the herd, when they reach sexual maturity. Those bachelor studs will be driven to find mares, regardless of distance
> Round up every stud and castrate them-again, sound simple, but doable? Only need to miss a few.
> Remove stallions from herds , and you change true wild herd dynamics, and you have in essence, a modified domestic herd
> What happens when one or more ranch stallions escape_ start a square one?


Not sure how far bachelor stallions would travel in search of a mare while traveling alone and I doubt they'd travel in groups. I suspect they would hang around the area trying to steal another stallion's mares. That's what they do in the existing herds. They don't just go traipsing off across the country just because other stallions currently posses all the mares. You need to rethink this one.

As far as rounding up the herds. That is done now so is obviously doable.

Many geldings retain stallion habits. Rimmey here on the ranch will herd and posses mares in heat. But of course they don't get bred. I'm not convinced the non-producing herds would really notice that much difference. They'd still be living as feral herds.

As far as unnatural, the darts they use on mares cause them to have births out of season when the chemical wears off and they get pregnant again. This causes problems for the newborns and for the entire herd.

And finally, compare the unnatural setting of all geldings and mares living in a wild setting to all geldings and mares living in holding pens with all of the associated costs.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Our bachelor studs do travel in groups, and in fact, are a major problem when riding mares in the areas they are in
Also, what happens to natural selection, when man decides as to what stallions to cull?
What about inbreeding, when you just keep one breeding herd? 
What about those colts produced? Are they going to hang around that herd, thus if they get lucky, breed their own dams and sisters?

I like the idea of getting those feral horses out of holding pens, so perhaps your idea could have a trial run, as we know many other attempted solutions have failed
But then again, should the image of the 'wild horse', become that of an aging population, slowly dying off, versus natural selection?

Also, by returning all those feral horses in holding pens, to the wild, how does that address the problem where they were taken off the range in the first place? Can that rangeland support their number , until they die off?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Our bachelor studs do travel in groups, and in fact, are a major problem when riding mares in the areas they are in
> Also, what happens to natural selection, when man decides as to what stallions to cull?
> What about inbreeding, when you just keep one breeding herd?
> What about those colts produced? Are they going to hang around that herd, thus if they get lucky, breed their own dams and sisters?
> ...


Yes, bachelor stallions do travel in groups. But they do not travel for miles and miles out of the area in which they were born, looking for mares.

They group up for mutual protection, and while they're at it they spare with one another keeping skills up for the day they may decide it's time to challenge a band stallion. I'm basing this mostly on Cloud's Legacy of which I have the DVD.

I'm not sure how natural selection works in the wild for inbreeding, but it would be no different than with the producing herds. There was one case videoed where a band stallion permitted his "daughter" to mate with a stallion from a group of bachelors, but then made her return to the band.

If we truly were to have natural, we would get the DNA from some sabre tooths and perhaps a few other extinct horse predators and create a Jurassic Park for the wild horses.

Unable to do that, the most economical and humane method needs to be decided on that will create the broadest citizen satisfaction.

With citizen education, and in particular the wild horse advocate groups, I think the idea has merit. But as you suggest, it would certainly need testing on a smaller scale as all contingencies are never thought of before hand.

I've not heard of a better workable solution. Alternate suggested solutions would be welcomed.


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## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

Why would the non-reproducing herds need to be separated from the reproducing herds? Wouldnt lowering the amount of reproducing stallions (or possibly chemically sterilized mares, though gelding might be cheaper/easier/more permanent?) be enough? Would geldings still keep their herds or would they lose their instict to protect 'their' mares from outside stallions? 

I havent followed the issue too much, have they looked into adding in predators? Not necessarily sabretooths xD But wolves maybe? I saw a video the other day about how they added a pack of i think 14 wolves in a national park to control the deer population, and the whole park had flourished as a result. (Not sure how true that was but it seemed like a cool concept)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Luce73 said:


> Why would the non-reproducing herds need to be separated from the reproducing herds? Wouldnt lowering the amount of reproducing stallions (or possibly chemically sterilized mares, though gelding might be cheaper/easier/more permanent?) be enough? Would geldings still keep their herds or would they lose their instict to protect 'their' mares from outside stallions?
> 
> I havent followed the issue too much, have they looked into adding in predators? Not necessarily sabretooths xD But wolves maybe? I saw a video the other day about how they added a pack of i think 14 wolves in a national park to control the deer population, and the whole park had flourished as a result. (Not sure how true that was but it seemed like a cool concept)


To have the mixed herd work, you would need to sterilize both the stallions and the mares in the non breeding herd.
Here in Alberta, they have tried the darting solution, at a cost of about $2,500 per mare-who picks up that cost? Donations only go so far. 
Gelding stallions is the least costly method, but then you only need to miss afew, to have the entire program fail.
We know of someone , on a ranch, who always has too many cats. He neuters all the males, but obviously, stray Toms are getting the job done.
Natural selection, doe snot just mean having predators there that were present at the dawn of time, when what we now know as the horse, evolved, nor even the predators that we now have
Natural selection removes the horses that have metabolic conditions, the ones that are not the strongest, .fittess, far as breeding animals, those killed by severe winters, ect
Will the general population be content to watch old horses starve, when conditions become severe, or will those feral horses, over populating the range, still be fed?
We have natural predators here, like wolves , grizzly and cougars. Unfortunately, when they become numerous enough to effectively control feral horse populations, they don't stick with just horses, but become problems for cattle ranchers
Ask those Ranchers affected by having Alberta timber wolves re introduced in the yellow stone area !
The balance of nature is gone, when man is present, as he modifies it according to his own need, and his 'fixes' often are un balanced
We had so many wolf packs in the YA Ha Tinda, so that for a few years, elk calf survival was about nill
Ever see a wolf pack take down a horse/ I beg to consider the slaughter option, for surplus horses, way more humane


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Just playing Devil's advocate, concerning the big picture and 'wild horses'
Horse died off In north America, in spite of a desire to find fossil remains, that would make them native, versus a feral introduced species, thus sharing the rights of all native species.
If natural predators, even when they were plentiful, able to have controlled 'feral horse numbers, those original Spainish imported hroses would not have exploded in numbers as they did
There are a lot of emotions, when it comes to horses, versus other species, and as a horse lover myself, I am not immune. The story of Wild Horse Annie was a tough read!
On the other hand, we know what happens when a species, not native to an area is introduced
Sparrows, rabbits in Australia and the pythons in the Everglades, are just a few examples. Thus, the solution remains very complex


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> In north America, in spite of a desire to find fossil remains, that would make them native, versus a feral introduced species, thus sharing the rights of all native species.


The species of the horse as we know it today, evolved in North America over a period of 5 million years or so. About 1 million years ago they made it to Europe and other parts of the world where they were selectively bread beginning a few thousand years ago to different breeds but same horse.

There is an abundance of fossil remains in North America plus early drawings of horses by the ancestors of the American Indians before the horse died off.

Then came the big freeze (way before the Indians came) where 70% or so of the horses died off. Then came the indians ancestors across from Alaska abut 11 thousand years ago bringing domesticated animals with diseases that horses and some other large mammals did not have resistance against and the rest died off.

So technically, the horse cannot be considered a native species, although it once was. Indigenous? Depends on the definition.

Not sure the horse has a home anywhere in the world that it could call it's native lands. But the horse has been here in the US for over half a century and played a big part during most of that half century. That's got to count for something.......I'd think.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I agree on your points, and wild horse advocacy groups are working hard to prove that the hrose never truly died off in North America, as that would certainly strengthen their quest for rights, far as feral hroses
I have no argument that the horse played a major role in developing North America, as it did in other parts of the World, ever since man found out a horse could serve a purpose beyond the dinner plate
Further argument them stems around isolated populations of feral hroses, with little introduction of ranch, draft and other horses that escaped, introduced to their gene pool, and those with a great deal of subsequent domestic escaped horse genetics.
Should one group then be protected, allowed to remain feral, more then others? I think so, with those isolated horses , like the Keiger Mustangs, being selected, far as that breeding population


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> To have the mixed herd work, you would need to sterilize both the stallions and the mares in the non breeding herd.
> 
> *Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. If all the stallions are sterilized, no babies. If all the mares are sterilized, no babies. Works for people, works for horses. Sure, there could be misses, but a drastic reduction for certain.*
> Here in Alberta, they have tried the darting solution, at a cost of about $2,500 per mare-who picks up that cost? Donations only go so far.
> ...


You need to share what you would do if you had the authority.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Luce73 said:


> Why would the non-reproducing herds need to be separated from the reproducing herds? Wouldnt lowering the amount of reproducing stallions (or possibly chemically sterilized mares, though gelding might be cheaper/easier/more permanent?) be enough? Would geldings still keep their herds or would they lose their instict to protect 'their' mares from outside stallions?
> 
> I havent followed the issue too much, have they looked into adding in predators? Not necessarily sabretooths xD But wolves maybe? I saw a video the other day about how they added a pack of i think 14 wolves in a national park to control the deer population, and the whole park had flourished as a result. (Not sure how true that was but it seemed like a cool concept)


If only the stallions were sterilized in the non-producing herds, the mares would mate with the stallions in the producing herds if mixed.

It is very costly and time consuming to sterilize mares, so the idea of the non-producing herds would be to only geld the stallions and have the two types of herds separated farther than they travel.

Chemical sterilizations just have not worked to control populations. Reducing stallions would have no effect on populations as it only takes a few stallions for many mares.

Some geldings preserve the instinct to retain mares, but for the notion to work, the herds would need to be separated at a distance where no mixing would occur.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> I agree on your points, and wild horse advocacy groups are working hard to prove that the hrose never truly died off in North America, as that would certainly strengthen their quest for rights, far as feral hroses
> I have no argument that the horse played a major role in developing North America, as it did in other parts of the World, ever since man found out a horse could serve a purpose beyond the dinner plate
> Further argument them stems around isolated populations of feral hroses, with little introduction of ranch, draft and other horses that escaped, introduced to their gene pool, and those with a great deal of subsequent domestic escaped horse genetics.
> Should one group then be protected, allowed to remain feral, more then others? I think so, with those isolated horses , like the Keiger Mustangs, being selected, far as that breeding population


This is news to me. I did not know there were arguments that the horse never died off completely in North America. That would certainly change a few things. But that said, I'd think there would be evidence of that by now.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

My response, far as the mixed herd, was not to you, but to whoever suggested that they could be run in the same areas.

Debate
https://www.statelinetack.com/statelinetack-articles/the-american-mustang-wild-or-feral/10121/

And here is the challenge , that claims to have archaeological supported evidence

Are wild horses native to the U.S.? A federal court seeks the answer | Greenspace | Los Angeles Times


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Smilie said:


> And here is the challenge , that claims to have archaeological supported evidence
> 
> Are wild horses native to the U.S.? A federal court seeks the answer | Greenspace | Los Angeles Times


Interesting article. I do think the chance is good that small pockets of horses most likely survived. It seems almost incalculable that every.single.specimen of a numerous, adaptable, and thriving species died completely died off over such a huge area much of which was uninhabited and isolated. It only takes a very small breeding herd to be viable. Science is discovering small populations of animals thought to be extinct quite frequently. Many of those saying the horse is not native do not realize that the horse evolved on the North American grasslands, and descendants of those animals were then reintroduced by the Spanish, so in that sense, yes, the horse is native even if not one single specimen survived in North America.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Thanks for the articles. Read them both. Thinking about the argument if a re-introduced species is native. There are other species that have become extinct in certain locals and then reintroduced. The wolf would be one. Not sure if grizzlies were ever extinct in any areas.

But anyhow, wondering if those re-introduced species are now considered feral? Food fo thought.

It is possible that some horses survived but it would sure seem that as populated as North America is that some would have been found, unless they intermixed with later feral herds. And Countries South of the US do have some rugged country.

But I believe they died of disease brought in by the domesticated animals of humans. And there are no sabre tooth tigers or woolly mammoths that died out along side of the horse, or when the horse is believed to have died out.

And I wanted to come back to the idea of natural selection.

With the two classes of herds I'm suggesting, natural selection in the reproducing herds would continue to operate to the same extent it now operates. Only a number of mares from the reproducing herds would need to be moved to the non-reproducing herds. The stallions could stay. The total herd size of both combined would be targeted at the current BLM recommendations.

Say that number is 200,000. Might be 80,000 reproducing and 120,000 non-reproducing. Or vice versa. Or something else. In the end the size of the reproducing herds would be that which would sustain the population of both classes of herds plus the adoption rate.

I still think it would be cheaper and more effective than anything that has been done so far. And more humane also.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Your idea sure is worth a proposal, but you know that you are fighting an up hill battle, fueled by those with vested interests, like the cattle ranchers.
We have the same problem, far as our feral horses. The suffield Mustangs, were supposed to have a long history of being 'feral, wild, whatever you wish to call it.
None the less, government in it's infinite wisdom, removed those horses, and re introduced elk.
Well, those elk exploded, population wise, and are damaging local farm crops way more then the wild horses ever did

Rancher calls for action to reduce elk numbers at Alberta military base? - Calgary - CBC News

https://bridlepath.wordpress.com/2006/11/09/the-mustangs-of-suffield/

Is not the BLM still managing.preserving the Kieger Mustangs?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiger_Mustang


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I think the two herd proposal would be in the interest of and beneficial to the cattle industry. Right now the horse population is way over the BLM recommendations. This is a way to bring them down and maintain them. It would also be in the interest of hunters as it would leave more for other wild life. The only opposition would come from the horse advocate people who are actually doing great harm to the horse through their misguided efforts.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Should not the breeding herd be of mustangs like the Prior mountain and keger mustangs, as they evolved ,isolated from most feral horses, thus retain the original genetics , brought to north America by the Spaniards , versus blood from re mount stallions, turned out to breed feral mares,draft and other ranch horses

North American Colonial Spanish Horse - Spanish Mustangs
I though that they were already receiving some protective management measures


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I think there has to be selection, far asbreeding herds, ,and not just any feral horses.
Is not that already being done to some extent?

Info on Prior mountain Mustangs


'The Pryor Mountain Mustang is a substrain of Mustang considered to be genetically unique and one of the few strains of horses verified by DNA analysis to be descended from the original Colonial Spanish Horses brought to the Americas by the Spanish. They live on the Pryor Mountains Wild Horse Range located in the Pryor Mountains of Montana and Wyoming in the United States, and are the only Mustang herd remaining in Montana. They are protected by the Wild and Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971 (WFRHBA) and managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), who has set the optimum herd number at 120 animals. Genetic studies have revealed that the herd exhibits a high degree of genetic diversity and a low degree of inbreeding, and BLM has acknowledged the genetic uniqueness of the herd. Pryor Mountain Mustangs are relatively small horses, exhibit a natural ambling gait, and domesticated Pryor Mountain Mustangs are known for their strength, sure-footedness and stamina.'


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pryor_Mountain_Mustang


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Should not the breeding herd be of mustangs like the Prior mountain and keger mustangs, as they evolved ,isolated from most feral horses, thus retain the original genetics , brought to north America by the Spaniards , versus blood from re mount stallions, turned out to breed feral mares,draft and other ranch horses
> 
> North American Colonial Spanish Horse - Spanish Mustangs
> I though that they were already receiving some protective management measures


Hee, that'l be the next argument if and when a two herd solution is adopted. Good points though. Some might argue for herds in other parts of the world that compare genetically closer to the original North American horse.

Good point to think about though. The horse Cloud was turned back to the wild herd because of his unusual white color. So if this happens, there will surely be a squabble about guidelines for genetics beyond an unusual color.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

One stallion could easily impregnate fifty or more mares in a season. From what I have seen on these horses the stallions have smaller herds, so cannot see that gelding would be a lot of help.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> One stallion could easily impregnate fifty or more mares in a season. From what I have seen on these horses the stallions have smaller herds, so cannot see that gelding would be a lot of help.


The non-producing herds would have 100% geldings. The producing herds would have 100% stallions. Separation distance would be sufficient to avoid mixing of herds.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Hee, that'l be the next argument if and when a two herd solution is adopted. Good points though. Some might argue for herds in other parts of the world that compare genetically closer to the original North American horse.
> 
> Good point to think about though. The horse Cloud was turned back to the wild herd because of his unusual white color. So if this happens, there will surely be a squabble about guidelines for genetics beyond an unusual color.



I think that selection should be based on as to which feral horses remained the most 'uncontaminated by more resent domestic horses, thus 'purer descendants of the hroses that were instrumental in re introducing horses to the "new World"
This is based on genetics, not color, although many of those hroses have the more primitive coloring of dun
The Prior and Kiger mustangs fit that bill, and already exist where isolation has kept them as to what they are, plus they give more credibility, far as the move to preserve and keep them part of the landscape.
I would hate to see man made breeding herd selections based on no values, thus perhaps allowing some resent draft cross to breed on, represent the wild horses, if you will, while 'true' mustangs that have little influence from all the other breeds introduced in fairly resent times, breed on, with all feral horses then just becoming any mixture of once domesticated breeds


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I think they should all be Morgan Appaloosa crosses like Hondo hee.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Just recieved an invitation to attend a fundraiser in Colorado for the Cloud Foundation. You could go and be our spokesperson.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Just recieved an invitation to attend a fundraiser in Colorado for the Cloud Foundation. You could go and be our spokesperson.


Buy me a plane ticket? Just kidding, after all, I am Canadian, Heh!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hondo said:


> The non-producing herds would have 100% geldings. The producing herds would have 100% stallions. Separation distance would be sufficient to avoid mixing of herds.


I would be interested to know what mileage they would use to separate the herds. 

Brumbys in Australia will travel 40+ miles from water to grazing every three or four days. 

Believe me, I am not against gelding.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Foxhunter said:


> I would be interested to know what mileage they would use to separate the herds.
> 
> Brumbys in Australia will travel 40+ miles from water to grazing every three or four days.
> 
> Believe me, I am not against gelding.


I think all the herds in the US are already separated by a lot more than 40 miles.

If there are herds closer than that, then the close herds could simply be made to the same class, either producing or non-producing and choose the different classes by the distance they are already separated.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Nope, I think you need to separate breeding from non breeding feral horses, not just by distance, but by criteria that make some, who have remained mainly un diluted from the original horses re introduced tot he New World, from just any herd that happens to be feral, for some reason or another, including just having escaped from ranches, draft horses turned loose, as in our case, when tractors replaced them, ect
If the idea is to preserve 'wild horses', then at least select a genetic pool where that is stronger., far a breeding animals


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I don't disagree at all about the gene pool. But we'll have to work on that after the two herd solution is adopted.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Still curious, is there not already at the moment, some two herd adaptation, with bLM recognizing the Prior mountain hroses as already being an isolated, 'pure' mustang herd, for want of a better word, deciding as to how many of them the area can hold, allowing them to breed on, versus the general non selective round up they have implemented towards feral hroses in general?
Are you not perhaps suggesting the re-invention' of the wheel, to some extent?"
Perhaps all feral hroses, other then groups like the Prior mountain and Kiger mustangs, should be 'non breeding herds.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

No, this wheel has not been invented. There is no management of non-producing herds by the BLM other than holding pens.

Again, the feasibility of what I'm suggesting would have to be tested first before other criteria such as genetics were added. Thing is, the more criteria that is added up front, the more opponents there will be as every criteria seems to breed opponents. There would be enough opponents to deal with just using the basic structure I've suggested and outlined.

Which areas to select for producing and non-producing and the population of each would be a ways down the road from brainstorming and testing by the BLM.

As far as genetics of the various breeds, those genetics were all present in the original stock other than perhaps a few mutations. If a group of selected breeds are interbred they tend to drift toward the original genetic makeup. I'm not an expert in that field, but my guess is that your concern is genetically a non-issue.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I guess we differ, on the point of genetics.
Horses In North America, by strict definition, are feral
However, there are sub groups, like the Prior mountain Mustangs, that already live in an isolated area, so that, unlike most of the feral horses, have not had their genetic pool infiltrated with horses of a more recent escape, or even release, into the wild, and remain genetically more like the original horses that first were brought tot he New World
It was common practice of ranchers and even the army, to set a stallion loose into the wild, to breed with range mares, producing thus horses more along the line those ranchers wanted, or as re mount horses for the army.
Draft horses were brought tot he New World also at a later date, and many escaped or were released into the wild.
THus, if there is a strong argument by anyone, as to which feral hroses should compose that breeding herd, the logical conclusion, would be to preserve those mustangs who have lived free for several hundred years, versus mixed pool of horses that include many recently introduced, by escaping from ranches, being deliberately introduced, etc

hERE is the Prior mountain herd management

https://www.blm.gov/site-page/progr...t-herd-management-areas-montana-dakotas-pryor

it has been an on going battle, with the following policy finally established

'Thousands of letters deluged the Department, from elementary school students and their parents to concerned citizens all over the country, asking that BLM create a refuge for the horses. Director Rasmussen personally visited the Pryor Mountains in 1968 and concluded that the area should be established as the Bureau's first wild horse range. On September 12, Secretary Udall signed a Public Land Order establishing the refuge; BLM dropped its plans to remove horses from the area, but set a limit of 125 to 145 horses for the range to protect its forage.


National Mustang Association

Point being, even turning non breeding herds back out, taht solution might work it's way out in 20 years or so, through non production,iF, they truly remain non breeding, with feral stallions still out there, the possibility of escaped stallions being introduced ect, but does not solve the immediate position of land not there to support the existing number of feral horses,


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Hopefully there will eventually be more supporters than non-supporters. 

Again, interbreeding of different breeds tends to return the offspring closer and closer to what the original genetic makeup was before the various breeds were developed. Theoretically, if all the breeds of the world were interbred, the original species genetic makeup would eventually return.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Hopefully there will eventually be more supporters than non-supporters.
> 
> Again, interbreeding of different breeds tends to return the offspring closer and closer to what the original genetic makeup was before the various breeds were developed. Theoretically, if all the breeds of the world were interbred, the original species genetic makeup would eventually return.


 But that is not the point, JMO, to 'return to the original EQUUS. We have the horses for that !

'The last remaining true wild horse, Przewalski's horse, is also dun-colored with primitive markings. So, too, are horse breeds such as the Konik and the Heck horse, "bred back" to resemble the now-extinct tarpan, many of which are grullo or mouse dun in color.

What should be preserved, is the original horse, brought back to the New World by the Spaniards which represents the horse that first went feral in the New World, thus , the 'true mustang',


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well, the Spanish origin of the word mustang is "unclaimed". Whether the genetics are of the first horses reintroduced to North America or the genetics of the horse that died out 11k years ago is a whole new argument I have not even considered.

I will say that I do appreciate you saying the two herd classes has merit and consider that supportive. In fact, if everyone just felt that much about it, BLM would be in the process of working out the details.

What do you think would be the best approach for promoting the idea. Go directly to somewhere in the BLM or research the list of people on the advisory board and contact some of them? Ginger Kathrens is on there and would oppose it but Ben Masters is on there too and he would support it. Have no idea who else is on it. Maybe find out and present the idea in detail to all members?

I'd need to find someone to write it up.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

BLM wild horse and burro advisory board meetings on youtube...

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL26A2F5474B0CED19


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Will get back with some ideas later.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

okay, some thoughts.
Have you read the book , Wild Horse Annie, real name Velma Bronn ?
If not, perhaps some of the activistst methods she used, to get laws passed for the humane treatment of wild horses, might give you some ideas
The book was a great read, although tough at times, as wild horses were captured in very cruel ways, transported to slaughter in horrid conditions, shot for fox meat, ect


https://www.chapters.indigo.ca/en-c...goo-Shopping_All+Products&gclid=Cj0KCQjw6NjNB


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velma_Bronn_Johnston


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

sure hate it when my post dissappears, for I can submit it!
Anyway, have you read the book, /Wild Horse Annie (Velma Bronn Johnston)
If not, reading it might give you some ideas, as she was an activist that earned some protection for wild horses, far as how they were captured, treated, ect
A very interesting read, even if hard to read at times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velma_Bronn_Johnston
I also googled the present controversy on how to control population of wild horses,and it gives why there is oppostion by some, on spaying mares and gelding stallions

https://returntofreedom.org/2016/03...trol-wild-horse-population-stirs-controversy/

And volia, back from cyber space,my original posts, thus the repetition!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

just in case you don't get a chance to read the entire link above, here is apart that should be pertinent

The birth control debate
To control wild horse populations, Bolbol advocates the use of the porcine zona pellucida vaccine, or PZP, a birth control injection given to mares that blocks fertilization for a year.
Permanent sterilization methods change the nature of the horses, she said. “You don’t have wild horses anymore. You have their bodies, but they are … domesticated.”
Sophia Krajewski, an equine veterinarian in Santa Fe, agreed that sterilizing a horse “totally changes their attitudes.” While spaying a domestic mare is “extremely difficult” and rarely done, removing a domestic stallion’s testicles, or gelding, is more common and safe. And the reason it’s done, she said, is to make a horse “less likely to bite, less likely to be aggressive — they are much more manageable.”
Karen Herman, director of the Sky Mountain Wild Horse Sanctuary in Tesuque, said neutering horses won’t remove their wildness, but “their herd behavior will be changed forever.”
Bolstad countered that current birth control methods for wild herds are too short-lasting.
“The activists don’t really want us to have any alternative rather than to allow the horses to reproduce [naturally],” he said. “That’s an irresponsible position.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here you go Hondo-your voice can be heard!

'The BLM has issued a Request for Applications (RFA) to alert veterinarians, scientists, universities, pharmaceutical companies, and other researchers of the BLM's need to develop new, innovative techniques and protocols for implementing population growth-suppression methods. Specifically, the BLM is interested in finding experts to develop new or refine current techniques and protocols for either contraception or the spaying/neutering of on-range male and female wild horses and burros. The methods may be surgical, chemical, pharmaceutical, or mechanical (such as intrauterine devices). The submission deadline for applications is May 7, 2014.

https://americanwildhorsecampaign.o...-suppress-population-growth-wild-horse-burros

Oops, see 'we' are a couple of years too late!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well, the video I posted gives the important names that I could get current information on how to submit suggestions. There is also a typed verbatim of the meeting for the spelling. Difficult to read as sometimes it's not always clear who is talking.

I've sat through a few USNF meetings like that. I was part of the meeting which made it easier but it's not something I enjoy doing for certain.

Sterilizing mares I do not suggest. It is just too invasive, difficult, and unnecessary if there are only geldings.

Yes, the dynamics of the non-producing herds would be altered. Enough to call them not wild herds? I don't know. But it would certainly alter their behavior less that life in a holding pen.

Add the fact that there would still be producing herds with no sterile members so there would still be wild herds by anybody's definition. Some of the herds would simply be converted to non-producing herds to avoid over population and life in a holding pen.

It's so simple. Too many babies? Just transfer a few mares from a roundup from PH to NPH.

Just thinking.........eventually there would be no geldings left in the NPH as they died off from old age and mares still coming. So maybe some stallions would need to be gelded for the NPH along the way.

The notion is really just boiling down to replacing the holding pens with non producing herds.

And again, with life in the wild ending at 20 years, it should take no longer than 20 years to get control of the population to recommended size.

I see no other solution other than just killing the excess. Chemical sterilization is not a solution for most of the herds. Only a few very tame "wild" herds that are visited frequently by tourists.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I had an epiphany today! There are bound to be resistance about wild herds with all geldings being an unnatural grouping.

So why not "proud cut" them as in a human vasectomy? Then for all practical purposes the males would still be stallions but there would be no babies. It wouldn't be "perfectly" natural because there'd be no babies to protect but pretty darn close, I'd think.

I'll try to put all this together in a brief form and see if I can get any interest from the BLM.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Sigh.............


Legal Victory in Saylor Creek

The Future of America's Wild Horses: The Options


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, there you have it. There is aloud voice that does not want just an aging population of neutered horses living out their life, and against all logic, want to see those foals and young horses in that herd
Even if permanent sterilization becomes policy, where will the funds for that come from? perhaps, alot from the feed expense in holding pens, but can that population, released, presently be sustained by the range alone?


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

One thing that I had not realized in reading Ben Masters' Nat'l Geographic article is that the (1971?) horse and burro protection act included authorization for the humane euthanization of unwanted surplus just as is done with cats and dogs. It was the BLM that laid out the policy that they would not euthanize healthy animals. Don't know if it was what the BLM wanted or if the bowed to public pressure but the option is still there. It wasn't completely clear to me but from the article it sounded like the slaughter vote was actually a vote for euthanization.

If proud cut stallions, mares, and foals were transferred periodically from producing herds to non-producing herds it just doesn't seem that far from natural. I'd like to ask the judge if she thinks the holding pens of geldings and mares is a more natural setting. I just don't get it.

Why didn't the judge say nope, can't put them in holding pens. No studies have been done on that. You're gonna have to euthanize like the bill says until you do a holding pen study to determine if that is cruelty. Which I sort of lean towards that it is.

Did I already say, I don't get it?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

YEAH, well, with so many fraction of voices in the 'save the mustang camp', how can any rational petition be given convincing support?
I think those that want to save the Mustang, need first to become united.
Sort of reminds me of Lawrence of Arabia, when he tried to unify the Arabs!


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

What about this...............

Create the non-producing herds from the normal cross section of ages and sexes but with all the stallions, young and old, proud cut or cryptorchid stallions.

Then when transferring over population from producing herds, transfer the normal cross section of ages and sexes but again with cryptorchid stallions.

Give me a devils advocate of the objections that might be raised against that proceedure.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Logistics of implementing,and continuity of such a program , not to mention, forcing herds to accept different herd members, disrupting order in established herds


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Roundups are done frequently on all the herds with surplus being transferred to holding pens or rented pastures. The logistics and disruption doesn't sound much different.

Over........


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

There are frequent roundups done on all the herds already with the excess being transferred to holding pens or rented pastures. Logistics and disruption doesn't sound much different to me.

Over............


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> There are frequent roundups done on all the herds already with the excess being transferred to holding pens or rented pastures. Logistics and disruption doesn't sound much different to me.
> 
> Over............


Well, except that you are introducing new herd members in the wild. 
Domestic horses, or those in some enclosure, like those holding pens, obviously have to learn to live with new horses being introduced.
In the wild, without our interference, horses are driven away all the time, from herds where they are not welcome
Crypt and proud cut stallions in particular, are not going to take kindly to young male horses being introduced to their herd
That is why bachelor stud groups exist in the first place
Alos, many studs will kill foals that are not theirs


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The BLM has 25 off range pastures rented that range in size between 1,000 acres and 35,000 acres. The horses are branded,gelded, and treated in a short term holding facility before being transferred to a rented pasture where there is a definite procedure for incorporating into the existing herd.

But there are no stallions, even though geldings do at times retain stallion behavior. But never the less, the nature of the herd is much different than a free roaming wild herd.

In addressing the concerns about adding crypt stallions to an existing free roaming wild herd of an average cross section population of wild horses with crypt stallions I refer to a DVD of "The Adventures of Cloud" that chronicles the first nine years of the life of Cloud, a free roaming stallion.

Cloud lives within a herd of around 60 horses comprised of several bands which range in size from several down to only two, one mare one stallion.

When a young stallion in a band reaches around the age of two, he is driven from the band. With no instructions or playbook to follow, he is a lone horse in the wild. To survive he must find and gain acceptance into a bachelor band of stallions. Within this band there are many small skirmishes presumably to develop the skills needed to challenge an existing band leader in a sometimes quite bloody combat.

From watching the video, I cannot see how the introduction of a crypt stallion into a herd of several bands and one or more bachelor bands would be any different than what exist already in the wild.

As far as the mares, with or without foal, well, they won't have any problem finding a home.

More advocate please. This is helping me think about details.


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