# Cantering In Two-Point



## Stella

My instructor likes beginners to canter in two point. What are the advantages and disadvantages of two-point canter?
(Ive just learned to canter, but I think that sitting canter is more useful.)
Opinions?


----------



## darrenvale

May I ask? Two-point canter? what is it? I have never heard of it :L x


----------



## horsegirl15

Two point cantering is helpful becuase it helps you find your balance over your horse and once you have your balance sitting at the canter is easier


----------



## Stella

darrenvale said:


> May I ask? Two-point canter? what is it? I have never heard of it :L x


 YOu canter in two point. Pretty simple.:wink:


----------



## Stella

horsegirl15 said:


> Two point cantering is helpful becuase it helps you find your balance over your horse and once you have your balance sitting at the canter is easier


 thank you. I understand.


----------



## azarni

Yeah, many people who canter slam the horse's back the first while, as they haven't figured out the motion. It would make sense to start cantering in two-point, just to get the feel of it and proper balance before attempting to sit it.


----------



## corinowalk

I always taught my students to canter in 2 point because it is easier on the lesson horses back as opposed to a beginner flopping around. Some horses respond to the flopping by speeding up. It usually doesn't end well! 

I have been doing a ton of 2 point trotting myself lately and actually prefer it to posting on my friends Draft horse. It lets her find her rhythm and balance without all my pesky interference.


----------



## MyBoyPuck

The main advantage is that it gets you accustomed to balancing over your horse's center which is the foundation for jumping and really all riding. The better your balance, the better your horse will be free to move and do his job.


----------



## sandsarita

I use two point when I need a more forward, freer moving stride, such as going down a line of jumps or when hand galloping. I sit the canter when I need more collection, such as corners on a course, esp tighter ones, and for equitation work.


----------



## Beau Baby

when you canter in two-point you learn to balance and you learn to use your leg {to a extent} to keep the horse moving. Many riders pump with their pelvis instead of using their leg to keep the horse moving, which is incorrect. it also helps you to get your leg in the proper position, which is under you. my instructor makes every student no matter the level canter in two-point if she is unimpressed with our position. even the riders who compete at Training level in eventing, right down to the beginners, it helps everyone.


----------



## darrenvale

I still do not understand. As far as I can tell you are all from America. And from my many years of riding over here I have never once heard this. Also 'you canter in two point' doesn't help :L not simple. From what I have learnt we had to ride on the lunges for ages with no stirrups and no hands to get our balance.. Not so nice :L



Beau Baby said:


> Many riders pump with their pelvis instead of using their leg to keep the horse moving, which is incorrect.


I do agree to this a bit. But to keep your horse going you have to use your seat, you have to sit deep and push whilst moving with the horse? But of course like you said, you have to squeeze with your legs on every stride. Well thats what I was told. I may be completely wrong


----------



## Alwaysbehind

corinowalk said:


> I always taught my students to canter in 2 point because it is easier on the lesson horses back as opposed to a beginner flopping around. Some horses respond to the flopping by speeding up. It usually doesn't end well!


This totally!

That is the main reason beginners are taught to canter first in the 2 point position. For the sake of the horses.


----------



## VelvetsAB

_Darren--Europeans ride in a more deep seat, where Americans/Canadians ride in what is called a more forward seat. (I got yelled at for it when I was in Ireland on vacation...put your butt in the saddle!!) We would call what you guys ride in as "3-Point" (leg, butt, leg). 2-point is no butt in the saddle and the two points of contact are your legs. Although some seat push is fine to keep your horse going, people who are still learning can look like they are grinding/humping the saddle and it doesnt look good at all...lol. Plus, if beginners learn in a 2-point position, most are learning on schoolies, so it keeps them off of their back which in turn makes the horse last longer. Its the same reason most of us use a mounting block to get on....to help save the horses back a bit._


----------



## darrenvale

Thank you VelvetsAB I now understand . I can see that for a begginer that it is a very good idea. We kind of have the same thing ( a little bit) where we where made to canter in a jumping possision, but i dont think its the same :L. I definatly agree with using a mounting block!! x


----------



## Beau Baby

darren you are right that you do need to move with the horse but I know some riders who over pump. they don't kick with their leg to keep them going, they pump more with their pelvis therefore forcing them to sit on their back pockets and when they sit back that far their legs go forward and they form a chair seat. 2 point prevents the thrusting and the chair seat,


----------



## VelvetsAB

_Darren--Jumping position and the 2-point are pretty much the same I think._


----------



## Stella

VelvetsAB said:


> _Darren--Jumping position and the 2-point are pretty much the same I think._


 Thats right. Its the exact same thing.


----------



## Stella

What do you mean, "No flouncing off in a huff?" I just wanted good reasons, and I found them! Thank you.


----------



## VelvetsAB

_Stella....thats just Alwaysbehind's signature. It wasnt addressed directly at you. It is at the end of all her posts. _


----------



## Alwaysbehind

VelvetsAB said:


> _Stella....thats just Alwaysbehind's signature. It wasnt addressed directly at you. It is at the end of all her posts. _


Thank you Velvet. 

Yes, Stella, that is my signature line. It is not addressed towards you.


----------



## MaggiStar

Darren id never heard of it untill we started to get American students on riding holidays over and i didnt know why nobody sat in the saddle!
ITs definitely not common in eurpoe.
I seem to remember one of americas international show jumpers goes around the entire course in 2point


----------



## darrenvale

Beau Baby, I do agree that some people really do go a bit far with the pelvic movement :L . x


----------



## Stella

Alwaysbehind said:


> Thank you Velvet.
> 
> Yes, Stella, that is my signature line. It is not addressed towards you.


  oops Im new to the forum, so... well, just take it as a joke.


----------



## Alwaysbehind

No problem! We all have to learn how these things work.


----------



## Beau Baby

yeah darren one of the girls in my lesson does it a lot. like she really thrusts. my instructor has got to the point where some lessons she won't let us sit down at all. maybe a minute rest here and there but it is a completely standing lesson. i understand some people need it to help them but i don't thrust so it kills me. lol. guess u do wat u have to.


----------



## darrenvale

Hahha you do! I feel sorry for you though! having a standing lesson! there are the worst x


----------



## Eolith

Hmm, I think I should do a little more two pointing myself... my horse and I could probably benefit.

Have you ever done the exercise wherein you stand in two point for two or three strides of trot, sit for one stride and then stand for two or three again? That will really throw you for a loop, but if you can master it, it teaches fantastic balance and timing.


----------



## VelvetsAB

_One of my coaches will make us do 2 laps sitting, 2 laps posting and 2 laps in 2-point without stirrups. SOOOO hard. (I only ride every other week right now because of shift work and trying to do a high school correspondance course to go to college, so I dont have the muscle to do this well . Makes me sad!)_

_Eolith-never even heard of that, but it sounds interesting!_


----------



## Brithorse1996

Yes, you have no Idea how much I like sitting trot over doing that and that's an understatement


----------



## Stella

VelvetsAB said:


> _One of my coaches will make us do 2 laps sitting, 2 laps posting and 2 laps in 2-point without stirrups. SOOOO hard. (I only ride every other week right now because of shift work and trying to do a high school correspondance course to go to college, so I dont have the muscle to do this well . Makes me sad!)_
> 
> _Eolith-never even heard of that, but it sounds interesting!_


Ohhh, that must be torture! Two point without stirrups does NOT sound fun.:-|


----------



## Beau Baby

Eolith that is one of my coaches favorite activities. and darren it is torture, especially when we go the WHOLE lesson like that. I'm about dead at the end.


----------



## Void

Eolith said:


> Hmm, I think I should do a little more two pointing myself... my horse and I could probably benefit.
> 
> Have you ever done the exercise wherein you stand in two point for two or three strides of trot, sit for one stride and then stand for two or three again? That will really throw you for a loop, but if you can master it, it teaches fantastic balance and timing.



I love this exercise


----------



## darrenvale

aww, i feel sorry for all of you that have to do a lot of this exercise! x


----------



## MIEventer

It is a great excercise! The Eventer I work with once a month has us do it at the walk, trot and canter! I have yet to master it, it's a toughie! But she says if you can do it at all 3 gaits, you can jump almost anything.


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

Lol we used to call that the "waltzing trot".

A dressage clinician I was riding with the other week had all of the clinicers having trouble with their legs stand with their bums 1" away from the saddle and they were all cursing her, it was priceless, but they sat a lot better after that!

Of course I'm going to take this as on opportunity to post my jumping video that everyone's already seen lol  But yes, it is important for all riders to be able to ride without stirrups and without a seat! You never know when you will need to employ either skill!


----------



## Uma

Stella said:


> Thats right. Its the exact same thing.


I have actually learned that there is a difference between jumping position and two-point. It can be the same depending on the height of the jump but there is a difference.
Two point you shoulders are back father and you are getting ready to jump. My instructor has explained that jumping position is when you fold your hips more, as if you are going over a jump and you give a release. 
For your purpose two-point is what you want to practice.

Two-point without stirrups is an awesome workout- hard but very useful.
If you want to jump I would highly recommend learning to two-point without stirrups. You never know when you will loose a stirrup at a competition and only be 2 strides from a jump....


----------



## Stella

Uma said:


> I have actually learned that there is a difference between jumping position and two-point. It can be the same depending on the height of the jump but there is a difference.
> Two point you shoulders are back father and you are getting ready to jump. My instructor has explained that jumping position is when you fold your hips more, as if you are going over a jump and you give a release.
> For your purpose two-point is what you want to practice.
> 
> Two-point without stirrups is an awesome workout- hard but very useful.
> If you want to jump I would highly recommend learning to two-point without stirrups. You never know when you will loose a stirrup at a competition and only be 2 strides from a jump....


 Interesting. thanks for telling me.


----------



## Stella

Nice jumping Anabel


----------



## QHDragon

Uma said:


> I have actually learned that there is a difference between jumping position and two-point. It can be the same depending on the height of the jump but there is a difference.
> Two point you shoulders are back father and you are getting ready to jump. My instructor has explained that jumping position is when you fold your hips more, as if you are going over a jump and you give a release.
> For your purpose two-point is what you want to practice.
> 
> Two-point without stirrups is an awesome workout- hard but very useful.
> If you want to jump I would highly recommend learning to two-point without stirrups. You never know when you will loose a stirrup at a competition and only be 2 strides from a jump....



I was under the same impression, the two point you use on the flat is different than the two point you use for jumping.

I will have to try the sitting and two-pointing drill when I get back into riding, even though I have been riding for many years, I just in the past year became comfortable really two-pointing at the canter (I am a nervous rider and was always worried about what would happen if my horse tripped). The one I use to hate is when my instructor had me sit two beats of canter then post one then sit two to help slow down my horse's trot.


----------



## devildogtigress

Stella said:


> Ohhh, that must be torture! Two point without stirrups does NOT sound fun.:-|


My instructor in high school used to do that to me. It was wretched. Lots of trotting and cantering and jumping in 2-pt w/o stirrups. But, it gave me some iron legs, and taught me to use my legs instictively...something that I'm SO grateful for now. When my OTTB spooked over a flock of horse-eating pidgeons he startled yesterday, my legs instantly did what they needed to to keep me ballanced and with the horse. There was not thinking on my end...just reaction (something in hindsight I was proud of b/c my legs are SOOOO out of shape after 10+ years out of the saddle). That's how she taught me to ride...over and over and over and over until it was reflex and instinct so I could focus on what was important. My mind can be otherwise occupied with things liks the course, the jump, my horse...and not with my form. Riding w/o stirrups did this. My body just "knows" what it's supposed to do...and does it (and w/o the muscle strength/tone it used to have this = shorter rides for me as my legs become fatigued easier...but I'm getting there! LOL)


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

A jumping position is two - point. They are one and the same. Riding around a course one should be in a forward seat, half seat or three - point (all three terms mean the same thing). Practicing a two point on the flat helps to strengthen the legs but it should really only be used in a gallop, or over a fence, otherwise the half seat should be used.
Two-point or "jumping position":








Three point or "half seat":


----------



## Uma

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> A jumping position is two - point. They are one and the same. Riding around a course one should be in a forward seat, half seat or three - point (all three terms mean the same thing). Practicing a two point on the flat helps to strengthen the legs but it should really only be used in a gallop, or over a fence, otherwise the half seat should be used.
> Two-point or "jumping position":
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Three point or "half seat":


I agree that jumping position can be the same as two-point, but it can also be different. Compare your two-point picture to this:

















So like I mentioned before, I was taught there was a difference. There is more of a closed hip angle and more of a release than the two-point


----------



## VelvetsAB

_Ananbel--The second picture is not showing up for me_
_Uma--your first picture isnt showing up either._

_Is anyone else having problems with the pictures? I would love to see them so it is easier to follow the thread and learn as well. _


----------



## darrenvale

Yeah I can't see it either x


----------



## Uma

Hmm...working for me...lets see what i can do.


----------



## VelvetsAB

_On my home computer, I can see both of Anabels now, but still cant see your first Uma. Guess thats what I get for looking at stuff at work!_


----------



## Uma

Let's try this one:









So, again, smaller hip angle than two-point and more release.



(here is the link if image doesn't work:http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/20/l_d6cf1fd7928946b999dfff52007345b3.jpg


----------



## StormyBlues

Ok. This is what I learned under an Olympic and WEG level eventer and an international dressage judge this weekend:

Three point: full dressage seat. It has little place in jumping because the horse's back is hindered by the rider.

Half Seat/light brushing seat: Used on the approach to the jump when you're half halting and changing the stride so the horse is more on their hind end, ready to jump.

Two point: jumping position or what you use around a stadium jumping course

Galloping seat: standing up in your irons but closing your hip angle to become aerodynamic so the horse can gallop up from underneath you on the XC course.

Balancing seat: galloping seat with the shoulders brought up so your leg is more under you as you are approaching the incial set up of the jump.

You should never sit much when jumping a horse unless you're saying HEY LISTEN HERE BUDDY! Even then, you should be able to in the galloping seat. When you're sitting on the horse's back, you're hindering their movements. Why do we use jumping position over jumps? To free the horse's back as they're jumping, so why wouldn't we do this on the flat in between jumps? There is a definite difference in the way my horse moves when I'm sitting on his back and when I'm in two point. He can use his back, therefore, the jump is better, and actually cleaner, AND I'm more secure so that I'm not going to fall off because my leg is strong and underneath me.


----------

