# Was the "Celtic pony" a Caspian



## Terrier Man (Jun 28, 2013)

I have often wondered if the "Celtic pony" was in fact a Caspian ?

Victorian archaeologists in Britain often compared the small Bronze Age / Iron Age pony to the Exmoor pony, this theory seemed to have persisted right up to modern time. But this comparison can only be made to the height only. Back in the old days they looked around for a breed that was about the same size that was believed to be an ancient type. But now modern science has proved that the Exmoor pony is not an ancient breed at all. The Caspian was only rediscovered about 48 years ago. The modern osteo archaeologists describe the Bronze Age Celtic pony as follows "rather small and slender" "shoulder heights of 111 cm and 120 cm" The only horse type that fits that size and build is a Caspian. What do you think ?

Irish Eddie


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## MissingStar (Feb 20, 2013)

Modern DNA-testing of the most ancient UK horse fossils suggests that these animals were not closely related to any horse breed known today, including the Caspian. 

However, by the end of the Iron Age, ponies similar to the Exmoor were most certainly on the scene. They may have resembled the Tarpan, with whom they share a genetic history. Evidence suggests that the Exmoor as we recognise it descended directly from these animals.

Heck, even Dartmoors like my boy were recorded by the Saxons - he sure fits the bill!









Do you have any information to back up your theory?


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## Terrier Man (Jun 28, 2013)

The DNA of Bronze Age / Iron Age horse don't match modern horse in Ireland, Britain or Europe. The Exmoor pony like the Dartmoor are very Dwarf looking in their appearance. The Bronze Age / Iron Age horse was small slender but they did not have Dwarf features like the Exmoor and Dartmoor. 

Some modern research "Exmoor fanciers claim the breed is directly descended from an isolated population of wild ancestors which have bred pure since the Ice Age, and thus is more than 10,000 years old. However, modern DNA research to date has not supported the traditionally-held view of the origin of the Exmoor pony, as existing studies indicate they share their maternally-inherited mitochondrial DNA with various other horse breeds from across the world, and their paternally-inherited Y-chromosome is identical to that of most other domesticated horses."

Irish Eddie


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## MissingStar (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm confused. Which period in history are you talking about, Ice Age or Iron Age? Horses of a Tarpan type were in the UK during the latter, according to DNA findings. Not identical DNA to more recent ancient European horses, but enough markers to show a connection. Then came evolution. 

Are you suggesting Caspians migrated to (or originated from) the UK and then died out before the Tarpans arrived? Is there evidence elsewhere in Europe to prove a migratory route?


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## Terrier Man (Jun 28, 2013)

Good questions and I am talking about from the Bronze Age this is why Ireland was so important, the wild horse went extinct in Ireland during the Ice Age, but this was not the case in Britain or in mainland Europe where the wild horse continued to survive. The horse returned to Ireland as a domestic during the Bronze Age so there was no problems in trying to distinguish between the domestic and wild horse in Ireland as there is elsewhere in Europe.



> Are you suggesting Caspians migrated to (or originated from) the UK and then died out before the Tarpans arrived?


No, but from the Mediterranean in the South and South West all the way to Ireland in the far West of Europe the domestic horse from the Bronze age was a very small light boned horse just like the Caspian in both size and breed type. When some of our Celts traveled from the Mediterranean to Ireland back in the Bronze Age they might have brought these very small light boned horses with them ?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

If you google the world you can vividly see the continental shelf of each country bprdering an ocean. In many cases it was above water at one time until the ice age melt began, then the levels gradually rose. I was of the belief that the Caspian was the forerunner of the Arabian and a few others.


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## Terrier Man (Jun 28, 2013)

> I was of the belief that the Caspian was the forerunner of the Arabian and a few others.


Correct.

The Caspian was rediscovered in the Alborz Mountains on the shores of the Caspian sea and that is where it got it's name. But this horse was widespread at one time.


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## MissingStar (Feb 20, 2013)

I see where you're coming from now, Eddie. I was taking the word "Celtic" in your thread title in the literal sense. The timeline for UK Celtic history commences 500-400 BC, the ancestors to our Exmoor and Dartmoor ponies were certainly on the scene by then. However, I believe you are talking about the period in time prior to this - an early "Bronze Age horse" rather than a "Celtic pony"?

Whilst to the best of our current knowledge all horses descended from one common ancestor, there were several branches of horse that evolved from this point, eg the Mongolian horse was developing at the same time period in history as the Caspian. Since archaeological examination of the most ancient remains of UK horses cannot reliably link it to any modern day breed, one could theorise that this was one of the "branches" that didn't make the grade and died out?

However, I wouldn't discount your theory either. Unfortunately, the evidence to support or disprove it has been lost or is yet to be discovered (perhaps in one of your Irish peat bogs?). It is a fascinating subject.

PS. Merlin is still smarting from you describing his features as "dwarf like". In his head he is all of 16hh - he's only 2, got some growing to do . . .


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## Terrier Man (Jun 28, 2013)

Yea but Celtic culture was in mainland Europe in the Bronze Age. Those very small horses are found in the lands of the Celt.



> However, I wouldn't discount your theory either. Unfortunately, the evidence to support or disprove it has been lost or is yet to be discovered (perhaps in one of your Irish peat bogs?). It is a fascinating subject.


But we have "small and slender" horses from the Bronze Age with "shoulder heights of 111 cm and 120 cm" that is from about 10.3 hands to about 11.3 hands that is about the average size range of a Caspian and the same type of build too.



> the ancestors to our Exmoor and Dartmoor ponies were certainly on the scene by then.


"modern DNA research to date has not supported the traditionally-held view of the origin of the Exmoor pony, as existing studies indicate they share their maternally-inherited mitochondrial DNA with various other horse breeds from across the world, and their paternally-inherited Y-chromosome is identical to that of most other domesticated horses."

Regarding the Dartmoor pony .... "The Dartmoor Pony was used in medieval times for carrying heavy loads of tin from the mines across the moor. It suffered greatly from the infusion of Shetland blood in the years between 1789 and 1832" "The Dartmoor received Arab blood from the stallion Dwarka, foaled in 1922, as well as Dwarka’s son, The Leat. Welsh pony breeding was introduced from the stallion Dinarth Spark, and infusions of Fell Pony blood was also added."

Not Iron Age but New Age.

Irish Eddie


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## MissingStar (Feb 20, 2013)

I did say "ancestors to" the Exmoor and Dartmoor. Both these breeds have reached near extinction several times and received infusions from elsewhere to keep them alive. I'm not disputing the theory that the Caspian horse is likely to be the purest ancient breed we have. Nor am I raining on your original idea - I think I'll leave it there.


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## Terrier Man (Jun 28, 2013)

I would not even say "ancestors" to them and here is why, the horse in Bronze Age Ireland and Britain was very rare and they were even rare on these islands in the Iron Age. 

"The ancient horse remains were all grouped in haplogroup A. There was a major clustering when the ancient sequences were compared to the modern sequences; this suggests that the ancient sequences did not reflect the distribution of the modern day horse populations. This can then imply that an ancient haplogroup has been lost during evolution.

By Katelyn Belz"


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## MissingStar (Feb 20, 2013)

Isn't that more or less what I said when I put forward the suggestion that a branch of equines descending from the universal ancestor was present in the UK during the early Bronze Age, but died out? That might explain why the earliest remains so far discovered don't appear to relate to any breed alive today. Caspian horses have skeletal anomalies that would be apparent, even if DNA typing was not possible.

You keep referring to the height and build of the animals of that age and that only a Caspian horse would fit the description. Pick a modern horse breed and take a look at a photo of one just a hundred or so years ago and see how much physical change can potentially take place through selective breeding. Same goes for dogs, cows, etc. 

Once again, I'm not disputing your theory.


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## Terrier Man (Jun 28, 2013)

I wonder did they die out or were they hybridised out of existence ?



> Pick a modern horse breed and take a look at a photo of one just a hundred or so years ago and see how much physical change can potentially take place through selective breeding. Same goes for dogs, cows, etc.


All of the ones that I can think of have only changed because they have been mixed with other breeds of livestock.

What is known about the real Tarpan could be written on the back of a postage stamp a disgrace. A lot of what is written is fake and the only picture on the net looks like a domestic horse or a hybrid.

Have scientists not even done a reconstruction of what the Tarpan looked like from all the bone material that they have ?


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## MissingStar (Feb 20, 2013)

In the '60s and '70s my Grandpa kept German Shepherd Dogs. Loved the breed and was an avid collector of historical records, pictures, etc. The GSD, say, of the 1920's was a well-built dog with a straight back and a leg at each corner. Then, for no other reason than aesthetics, it was decided that a more sloping back was desirable. So that's what they bred for. Decades later we ended up with show dogs with this exaggerated posture, weak spines, hip dysplasia and back legs camped out yonder. Still GSDs, no other breed infusion, but skeletally different.

Pugs in 17th century art show a dog longer in both leg and muzzle. They are a very ancient breed. Their genes have been introduced to other breeds, but not vice versa. Then along came the fashion for dogs shorter in both leg and muzzle. They put the most extreme specimens of the breed to eachother and continued on until we get the pug as we recognize it today. Again, no other breed involvement.

I am using dogs as an example because the physical changes are so visual and dramatic. Obviously, changes occur more quickly in a species which can produce more than one offspring per year and which matures early. However, my point remains valid. If physical change can occur within a breed in the space of 200 years, how much could potentially arise in 2,000 years, with or without human intervention. I would not expect an animal of two centuries ago to be an exact carbon copy of what we recognise today. Could be shorter, narrower, longer-legged, who can say?

Anyway, back to business! I recently read an article that might be of interest to you, Eddie. It regarded Phoenician traders and how they may have been responsible for introducing "ponies" to the West Country over 2,000 years BC. I think they used the term "ponies" because of the height of the animals. They traded them for Cornish/Devon metals and these became the animals we know as Exmoor and Dartmoor ponies. Both breeds became isolated and evolved separately to adapt to their different environments. The Phoenicians did not breed the ponies/horses themselves but traded with the Bedouin who, as we know, were master horse breeders.

If that was proven to be the case, perhaps I can take you to task for that dig at Dartmoors. They didn't just pitch up to the mineshaft one Medieval morning looking for work, you know. Logic dictates that there had to have been an evolutionary starting point earlier than that!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

I always question "DNA studies to date indicate" when comes to comparing the DNA of ancient anything to that of current anything. The DNA sample from the "ancient" being how reliable? And, the fragment "length"? 
For example, my appx has every "characteristic" of an akhal teke, which is _thought _to be one of the oldest horse breeds. There is no genetic testing available to confirm my suspicions. I spent quite a bit of time trying to determine if some reliable form of testing exists. So far, there appears to be none. Yet, what modern day horse breed is a descendant of a given "ancient" horse breed can be? It would be a little difficult to believe any current breed escaped some infusion from other breeds over hundreds of years such that mitochondria DNA would be expected to remain unchanged. IMO, it would boil down to measuring to what degree current breed x is a direct descend of ancient breed y. That does not appear to be measurable to any real degree of accuracy for _most_ breeds.


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