# Parelli, Your Thoughts?



## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

I ride Parelli and my horse and I have an amazing bond, she does what I want her to do and wants to do it as well! I have benefitted so much from it but I know there are loads of people out there who don't like or agree with it and just wanted to know your thoughts of it :-o


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

savvygirl559 said:


> I ride Parelli



:lol: There is a comment you don't hear so often, it's more usual it seems to be ground based Parelli followers.

I think there is a little bit of good stuff in there, hidden by a lot of hype, slick marketing, expensive merchandise and some down right dangerous concepts.


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## 7HL (Nov 27, 2008)

We use Parelli with all three of our horse, have so for some time. All I can say, when it comes to discussion forums, best to lead by your actions and what you have going on with your horse.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I've seen some parelli trainers work on horses and then try it on my horse. It was too much for my guy. Even the wriggling the rope to back up.. it scared him more than taught him. My horse is very easy to communicate to--much like myself. If you want back, you tell him and your body shows him and he'll do it. If you want over, you tell him, and your body shows him. But.. doing something without showing him what you want, and he starts getting frustrated and confused and sometimes even sad that he can't figure it out-- and then he becomes dangerous.

So I prefer to stick with what I know, and what my common sense creates for us.. rather than do something that my horse just doesn't snap into.

I'm sure it's great and all, but not for us.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

I would never change what I do for what anyone says about it, becaus eit works for me, I understand it doesn't for everyone. My horse used to get scared when I wiggled the rope to! She nearly dislocated my arm! And there definately is to much marketing! At first it was all about 'Making a better world for horses and humans' but now theres just too much! I bought the starter kit for £15 which contained a halter, rope, savvy string and carrot stick and I have my horse at a completely Parelli yard so I was taught properly as the owner is a Parelli Professional. I personally don't think you should use Parelli if you haven't been taught by an actual human being as the videos just tell you what to do, and don't help in anyway if you can't do it or are doing it wrong! If you don't use Parelli properly, I completely agree, it can be dangerous!


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> :lol: There is a comment you don't hear so often, it's more usual it seems to be ground based Parelli followers.
> 
> If I can, I spend half of my time on the ground (to see if she is okay to ride) and half ridden to keep it all even :-o In Parelli there are four 'Savvys'; On Line (rope and halter), Liberty (no rope halter or anything to attach you to your horse), Freestyle (like pleasure riding) and finesse (like dressage). If i spend an hour with my horse, I would spend 15 minutes on each, also to keep her even.


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

savvygirl559 said:


> I ride Parelli





Golden Horse said:


> There is a comment you don't hear so often, it's more usual it seems to be ground based Parelli followers.


Maybe it's because she's riding Parelli and not a horse? :shock:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

:rofl::rofl: I'm sure there was a thread that got out of hand on that very subject, so maybe we'd better stay away from those thoughts this time.


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## TheMadHatter (Feb 26, 2007)

He talks too much for me lol


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

Delfina said:


> Maybe it's because she's riding Parelli and not a horse? :shock:


hahahh!! thats funny! 




:rofl: but i do ride a horse! and would you say 'i ride my horse traditionally', 'i ride traditional' or i ride traditionally'?:wink: and my options are 'i ride Parelli', i play with and ride my horse parelli-y' or i ride parelli-y' lol:lol:


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

You ride in the way of the Parelli! 

But nah, it is fun to see horses react to the carrot stick 'commands' though


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

Sometimes yeah! the first time i tried to send my horse out on a circle, she did this sort of sideways cantering thing! But now I dont even need to use my carrot stick! And they are Phases, not "commands"


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

I'd say "I ride my horse" because realistically, Parelli or any other trainer isn't a style of riding, it's method of training a horse. 

I personally wouldn't attempt to pigeonhole how I train my horse because I have worked with several trainers and any ideas/suggestions they have that I deem to be sane and reasonable, I'll try. I don't believe that a program with steps A, B, C, D to follow when training a horse will work with all horses. Each horse has a different personality and attitude and if a particular training method isn't working, it's time to find a new one instead of annoying/irritating the horse by repeating the same thing over and over.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

Ifeel the same way, in parelli, we use horsenalities. for each one there are different things to do with them. there is no such thing as a normal horse or a problem horse which is why we train them differently. there are four main categories; dominant, lazy, food orientated (left brain introvert), playful, forward going, excitable (left brain extrovert), shy, prestends not to be there if scared(right braing introvert) bolts if scared, spooky (right brain extrovert) basically there is introvert (if had choice wouldnt move much) extrovert (always moving) right brain (scared, shy) left brain (dominant, less scared. for each of these horsenalities, we train them differently. but i dont follow everthing pat parelli says, i use the way he thinks about how horses are treated. all it is to me is an outline of what i should be doing and i build on it myself and do what works for me but in that style


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The Parelli system, if done well, should make the carrot stick almost unnecessary, shouldn't it? I mean the idea is to get to the softes cue possible, which would be plain, old body language, minus any "aid".

If you watch Pat himself work with horses, he is very good. And I am sure that , again, done correctly, the system is really great.

I have seen horse that end up being rather dull and mechanical in their interactions to the handler because they have learned the "games" and go throught the motions without being fully there , upstairs, you know.


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## rachelgem (Oct 22, 2011)

I've done a little bit with mine, if i hadn't done it when i got my horse in May, i probably wouldn't still have her now. she was bargy and had no respect for me at all! I've only played the seven games, i ride the classical dressage way, but i think parelli on the grounds amazing, and watching linda and pat ride is so cool! it was a total lifesaver for me, i now have a safe, sane, respectful horse.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

I went to a Parelli clinic as I was fascinated by what they were able to do with the horse. But, from what I see on RFDTV for the Clinton Anderson, It's pretty much the same thing. Same techniques, same tools, same products. I take some of their tips, but I'm not a "follower" I like to use a lot of different trainers techniques and make my own for what works for my horse.


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## hannxo (Jan 3, 2012)

I've seen what it can do to a completely uncontrollable horse firsthand, and I am soon going to use it on my horse. Pat Parelli himself annoys me cause of all his annoying little sayings all using the same letter and how he talks soooo much, but some of the stuff he says does make sense, it is just mostly common sense though. However, it does work, and I support it. Although I don't support how he never wears a hard hat/helmet or anyone he teaches, as you can never be 100% sure the horse isn;t going to trip or spook. And also I think the whole Parelli thing now is quite money-orientated :/


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

the idea of parelli is to get a horse working for you as a partner, not prey or to dominate you. it uses a horses natural instincts to make it 'natural'. so if you use it correctly, a horse will be happy to do these things like they would do for their herd leader.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

claporte, i agree, parelli has become a money making scheme, pat parelli is a very good horseman but there is no need to buy dvd's a stuff! there is also no point trying to pass parelli levels, they dont do anything, i havent entered or passed my level one or two and i still do level 3 stuff, it doesnt limit you in anyway, and you have to pay to enter, and if you dont pass, you have to pay again!


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

savvygirl559 said:


> If I can, I spend half of my time on the ground (to see if she is okay to ride) and half ridden to keep it all even :-o In Parelli there are four 'Savvys'; On Line (rope and halter), Liberty (no rope halter or anything to attach you to your horse), Freestyle (like pleasure riding) and finesse (like dressage). If i spend an hour with my horse, I would spend 15 minutes on each, also to keep her even.


But what do you DO with your horse?


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

The problem with Parelli is that it targets horse owners with hyper and exciteable horses, usually forgetting about the ones that you could beat over the head with a carrot stick and they'd fall asleep. For example, take my Arthur. Parelli's methods simply don't work with him because of his personality. My energetic mare has benefited some from using his methods, but she's a different type of horse than Arthur is.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

online: back up, cirlce, figure 8, sideways, jump, make her back up by picking up her tail , half circle to sideways canter, stand on objects (this takes a lot of courage for a horse, its like us going to stand on something that we think is gonna hurt us), circle and change direction in the space of like 2 seconds and so much more! liberty: (no halter) sencd out and bring back, my horse can do circles around me at canter until i ask her to stop and i dont need to keep sending her, i walk my horse walks, i imitate a trot or canter movement and my horse will do so!, send over a jump and loads more! Freestyle (pleasure riding): everything that everyone else can do but all i need to do to make my horse for forwards is bring all my energy up! and again, everything said before but with no bridle/halter(i use a halter) finesse (like dressage): everything like normal dressage but with no bit in my horses mouth and make then go using the same way as before!


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

My horse is a LBE, passively dominant light draft type guy. His method of becoming a leader is ignoring any pressure at all. However, he was started with the Parelli method and since then he has been trained with natural horsemanship methods exclusively (ok, I know they are often similar with many traditional methods, too.  ), and this type of training has been only beneficial to him - he's now active, alert, interested in people, and, though passive dominance is still his game, I do the 7 games with him on a regular basis during groundwork and I really, honestly can say that he understands them and responds to them well. If to some only more active horses respond to Parelli - then my guess is something has been misunderstood in the whole pressure thing. It cannot be used as a system, it has to applied to each horse by his character individually.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

equiniphile said:


> The problem with Parelli is that it targets horse owners with hyper and exciteable horses, usually forgetting about the ones that you could beat over the head with a carrot stick and they'd fall asleep. For example, take my Arthur. Parelli's methods simply don't work with him because of his personality. My energetic mare has benefited some from using his methods, but she's a different type of horse than Arthur is.


 My horse is exactly the same! in parelli they use horsenalities, and there is certain things to do that will motivate him, why he wont do anything is because to hime, its not interesting enough.


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## rachelgem (Oct 22, 2011)

I think parelli's a good groundwork for doing dressage


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

savvygirl559 said:


> If I can, I spend half of my time on the ground (to see if she is okay to ride) and half ridden to keep it all even


So if you're going to go on a 2hr trail ride, you would spend 2 hours doing ground work first? :shock:

Is there a point at which a "Parelli" horse becomes ok to pull out of it's stall or turnout and just hop on?


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

Delfina said:


> I'd say "I ride my horse" because realistically, Parelli or any other trainer isn't a style of riding, it's method of training a horse.
> 
> I personally wouldn't attempt to pigeonhole how I train my horse because I have worked with several trainers and any ideas/suggestions they have that I deem to be sane and reasonable, I'll try. I don't believe that a program with steps A, B, C, D to follow when training a horse will work with all horses. Each horse has a different personality and attitude and if a particular training method isn't working, it's time to find a new one instead of annoying/irritating the horse by repeating the same thing over and over.


I agree with you 
I also take tips from different trainers but don't follow just one program. But I really like learning others methods. I also attended to PNH clinic.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Delfina, mine is ok to do so. But I consider doing a little groundwork before riding just a common courtesty in order to see what is the horse like in the exact training session and day.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

there is no need to play with your horse for that long! theyed be tired out! but i never go on trail rides that long so its probably best to ask someone else


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

and saranda, mine would usually be fine as well, but id hate to get on her without her wanting me to. also, i do the cinch up in three goes to see if she is in any discomfort. so i'd do it up a bit, play a bit, do it up a bit more, play a bit, then do it up, play quite a bit and then get on


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I also like combining groundwork and bareback riding in one session - for example, work with yields from ground and then continue it with the same thing, just from mounted position, to establish the new elements.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> Sometimes yeah! the first time i tried to send my horse out on a circle, she did this sort of sideways cantering thing! But now I dont even need to use my carrot stick! And they are Phases, not "commands"



Carrot stick= funny coloured whip. 

I don't agree with it. I don't agree with Monty Roberts. I don't believe you have to buy DVD's, a dually, a 'carrot stick' to be able to train your horse. Horse sense teaches a human, a trainer with experience can help you but if you do it right then you shouldn't have a problem, working from respect on the ground to working under saddle. Perhaps you want to call it parelli or monty roberts, but if you REALLY think about it, all the fundementals of riding a horse regardless of discipline are the same.

So no, I don't agree with parelli, or anything like that. There are many ways to skin a goose, but I don't need to teach my horse circus tricks to do it.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

ive spent £15 pounds on my horses equipment since i bought herN she was orginally rode tradtionally so she had a saddle and bridlde, but i sold the brile for £30 so i made £15! ive never bought a dvd. and whip: funny coloured carrot stick and really short carrot stick to me. theres many ways to skin a goose, but id rather teach my horse circus tricks (even though i dont) thaty scare them into doing it.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

sorry about all the spelling mistakes in the last one


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> ive spent £15 pounds on my horses equipment since i bought herN she was orginally rode tradtionally so she had a saddle and bridlde, but i sold the brile for £30 so i made £15! ive never bought a dvd. and whip: funny coloured carrot stick and really short carrot stick to me. theres many ways to skin a goose, but id rather teach my horse circus tricks (even though i dont) thaty scare them into doing it.



I don't want to scare my horse in to doing things either, that would be dangerous on my part. There are other ways to train the parelli way, and perhaps I train the more 'classical' way, but my horse has never been unhappy, or scared. I use a rope halter to do groundwork, because I'd rather not use a stallion chain- I have once, and only once, and she hopefully will never need it again.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

what is a stallion chain? and how is a horse first trained 'classically'.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Savvy, it's not always either Parelli or alike, either scaring a horse into doing something. I'm pro natural horsemanship, but I know many good horsemen that do completely traditional training, yet their horses are active, happy and willing.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

i didnt mean like that, i meant as in they wouldnt do it as willingly, its not that i dont believe you but what trainers?


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> what is a stallion chain? and how is a horse first trained 'classically'.



A stallion chain works in the way a rope halter does.. but perhaps a bit more firmly.. to put it politely. Its in no way cruel if used correctly, as with a rope halter. Its a chain that attaches to a headcollar and goes across a nose, and attached to a leadrope- depending on the hands depends on the results. If you're nervous around your horse, and your horse takes advantage it may take more than one use, and sometimes continuous use. I don't agree with this. If you have more capable hands, you should only have to use it once. Maybe twice at a push, I did when I first bought my mare- 18.1hh is a lot to hang on to when it says NO. Once it was used, and when I do groundwork, a knotted halter. But then you get, with everything, the 'cowboys' and I don't actually mean cowboys, just a term, that see fit to yank and pull and put as much pressure as possible on a horse's nose.

By classically, I meant traditionally. You teach the horse, the horse understands its job. If the horse is always wanting top position, as you get with some, greenies, stallions, mares, some bloodlines, and the horse tries you, you ask nicely once, and then correct by any means necessary.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> i didnt mean like that, *i meant as in they wouldnt do it as willingly*, its not that i dont believe you but what trainers?



I think maybe you should look at threads about other trainers.. you're talking as though you're reading a parelli handout book, no offence.

BUT.. and this is why I bolded it, the smallest pony, if not willing and wanting could throw you in the dirt. It doesn't take a genius to work it out, and people I know who DO scare their horses (thread in training regarding a three yo) don't have a mentally stable horse for very long.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

i started parelli at a yard that told me that all other training methods were awful. of course i didnt believe them but i didnt realise that a horse would be as happy and willing as NH horses are, i have moved and they said that other methods can work very well, but NH is best for them


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> i started parelli at a yard that told me that all other training methods were awful. of course i didnt believe them but i didnt realise that a horse would be as happy and willing as NH horses are, i have moved and they said that other methods can work very well, but NH is best for them



I can't quote on NH, but I'm sure others can help.

Best thing to do when ever ANY horse person gives you an ultimatum like that is research it thoroughly.. there are many, many ways to do things in the horse world, some right, some wrong, and some dispicable.. you just have to find whats right for you, and whats right for you horse.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I would really suggest you visiting good "traditional" stables, riding schools, etc., if there are any in your area, to make your own opinion, not just assumptions from what somebody might have said to you.  Don't get me wrong, though. Also, my boy, although trained 100% NH, sometimes acts as if I was torturing him with the worst exercises possible, although he is just trying to dominate me into not making him learn at all.


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## HorseyyGal (Jun 20, 2011)

Personally, I adore Parelli! It's worked for me & my horse, he's gone from an agressive ex racer to a perfect partner  I've trained quite a few horses through the Parelli method & I've had nothing but fabulous results!

I find that people can be very quick to blame the method when sometimes it's the human on the end of the line that can be at fault :lol: But my pet peeve is people who don't study the programme & label it as "circus tricks". That would be like me saying equitation is sitting there & looking pretty :lol:

And you don't have to spend $$$ to follow Parelli, you can if you want but it's not a necessity. Same as any other equestrian sport! You can use a normal rope halter & a cattle prod, as I did in the beginning. I use an excercise ball in replace of the big green ball as used in level 3 work. It does the same job but doesn't have the label. Same way as you don't need a $$$ jumping saddle to get around a course of fences 

Parelli has changed my life & I've never been happier. I totally respect people's own opinions on the programme as long as they have all their facts straight xD


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

i thought you meant differently by classically, my friend says she rides 'classical' and beats the hell out of her horse! and i will look for different trainers as well, i dont follow parelli like its math, (like always one answer) i use it like english (and outline but more creativity) if you get what i mean? i use the basics and add in some tradtional and lots from other trainers, just to see what works for my horse


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

_she rides 'classical' and beats the hell out of her horse!

_Well, that is by all means NOT a classical method. That's ignorance and cruelty, and it is an illness of mind and soul that can affect people from any race, nation, gender, age and lineage.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> i thought you meant differently by classically, my friend says she rides 'classical' and beats the hell out of her horse! and i will look for different trainers as well, i dont follow parelli like its math, (like always one answer) i use it like english (and outline but more creativity) if you get what i mean? i use the basics and add in some tradtional and lots from other trainers, just to see what works for my horse



Aha, but you get that in any discpline, any training method. I could tell some unsuspecting folk I train in parelli and beat my horse.. classically is not beating your horse, as far as I remember though 

Others will be able to help explain that better, but the Spanish riding school teaches 'classically'


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

i do understand and agree with everything you guys are saying, and i definately think that different things work for different people. i rode traditional for years at an awful place, but as i started young, i grew up thinking there was no other way! they would never tell you to use your legs, it was whip, whip, whip! they would say 'when you get him into a nice trot, keep slapping him on the bumto keep him going. if he gets to fast, yank on your reins and give him a huge slap!' i left i wondered if there was any other way and dint ride for years because i thought that was it. i know that not everywhere is like that, but it has put me off traditional riding for good! like some you you dont agree with parelli


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Maybe you'd like to look at an excellent example of combining NH and something as classical as dressage - Karen Rohlf is a skilled horsewoman and her knowledge has taught me a lot! - 
















There are more in youtube, if you search.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

honestly, its not just smacking with a whip, she put him back in his stall one day, and i started to cry at what she had dont to this poor horse! where she had hit him had gone red raw and was bleeding! she also left him with his tack on and no water! from that day on i hated her and 'classical' or whatever she called it! i didnt realise she meant tradtional! i thought that classical was a method of training when you beat your horse like that! but now i realise it was just her!


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> i do understand and agree with everything you guys are saying, and i definately think that different things work for different people. i rode traditional for years at an awful place, but as i started young, i grew up thinking there was no other way! they would never tell you to use your legs, it was whip, whip, whip! they would say 'when you get him into a nice trot, keep slapping him on the bumto keep him going. if he gets to fast, yank on your reins and give him a huge slap!' i left i wondered if there was any other way and dint ride for years because i thought that was it. i know that not everywhere is like that, but it has put me off traditional riding for good! like some you you dont agree with parelli



Each to their own, but don't be put off because of one bad experience. If we did that all the time, no one would get back on a horse for falling off it!
Search the boards, some of the dressage threads are good as it'll teach you that 'traditional' is more than just snatch the reins and put your spurs in a horse's side till it bleeds.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

thats amazing! its also amazing how she is with that horse!


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> and saranda, mine would usually be fine as well, but id hate to get on her without her wanting me to. also, i do the cinch up in three goes to see if she is in any discomfort. so i'd do it up a bit, play a bit, do it up a bit more, play a bit, then do it up, play quite a bit and then get on


You have to get permission fom your horse to ride? What if your horse says she'd rather graze than go for a ride?

With your pre-ride routine, if you & I were going riding together I'd have you call me when you got to the last play session.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Karen is truly amazing, I agree.  It might be beneficial to read her book "Dressage: Naturally", if you can get one, or watch a DVD, or the videos on youtube. She changed my opinion on dressage, too, and now I do many of the exercises she advises, and see how they do good for my horse.

Mind me, I'm not trying to advertise anything here, just sharing my experience of how not everything is black or white.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

natisha said:


> You have to get permission fom your horse to ride? What if your horse says she'd rather graze than go for a ride?
> 
> With your pre-ride routine, if you & I were going riding together I'd have you call me when you got to the last play session.


I am still waiting for her to tell me what her horse DOES. 

I don't have the patience to putz with my horse and my horses certainly do not have the patience to be putzed with. They like to DO something. Trail ride, work cattle, etc.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

i do understand what you are saying duffyduck but with that other girl making her horse bleed, i just couldnt face it even though i know its not cruel, i just break down and snivvles. she had her horse put down because she 'wouldnt listen to the whip and was too slow' its not that i hate tradtional, it brings back bad memories


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

natisha, I always ask my horse permission to mount - and, if he doesn't want me to mount, I know there's something wrong - either with our relationship, hierarchy, or the way he feels physically. Sometimes it means more groundwork, sometimes it means something's wrong with the saddle or something in the arena scares him and he'd like to get a better look at it with me leading him, not with me mounted, etc. It takes a lot of horse reading skills, but I think it's worth the effort.  Because I put his well-being in the first place, the ride is secondary...


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> i do understand what you are saying duffyduck but with that other girl making her horse bleed, i just couldnt face it even though i know its not cruel, i just break down and snivvles. she had her horse put down because she 'wouldnt listen to the whip and was too slow' its not that i hate tradtional, it brings back bad memories



Sorry if I'm wrong but this horror story is starting to look a little too far-stretched to me... If you faced such cruelty, why didn't you report it to the authorities? And putting down a horse that is just too slow instead of, for example, selling it to someone - do such things really happen?


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

mls, a horse that does parelli, can do everything that anyother horse can do. and natisha, yes, i would like her permission, i dont think id like someone to come up to me and sit on me without asking first  and if shed rather graze (which my horse does) i would change her mind, take her somewhere where she cannot eat, and make her do something (like figure 8 at trot or canter) then she will think, would i rather have her on my back or do cantering circles?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Delfina said:


> So if you're going to go on a 2hr trail ride, you would spend 2 hours doing ground work first? :shock:
> 
> Is there a point at which a "Parelli" horse becomes ok to pull out of it's stall or turnout and just hop on?


^^This. For me, I don't see the point in playing with my horse for 10 minutes or 2 hours unless I just feel like it and don't have anything better to do. I can see exactly what his temperament is like the moment I catch him out of his paddock and lead him to the barn, playing with him won't make it any more clear. Most of the time when I ride a horse, I have a job to do or a distance to accomplish. I guess I can sort of understand for people who have horses as just a hobby and nothing more, but that doesn't work for _me_.

When I daywork at the feedlot, I couldn't very well go to the barn a 4 am and spend 30 minutes in the dark lunging him to see where his mind was at and if he was ready for a day's work:?. I catch him up, clean him off, saddle up, throw him in the trailer, and away we go. The only time he gets an unplanned day off is if he turns up sick or lame, same as me. 

The little pony that I was training and using at the 'lot got a couple of unplanned days off because when I went to catch him one morning, he was lethargic and had a snotty nose. Other than that, he got his little hiney worked off and he loved every minute of it. Why else would he start sticking his own head in the halter when I went to catch him, he would nearly dive into the trailer when I went to load him, and he got all excited when he saw all the cattle? 

But, then again, I suspect a large part of that is that I expect my horses to know that being caught means that play-time's over. Shenanigans are not acceptable at any moment that I am handling them, regardless of whether they _feel_ like acting a fool that day or not. Once they are trained enough to figure that out, we get along smashingly and they are always happy to work.


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

If I'm riding a very green horse as in only a couple of rides I will do a fairly intensive groundwork session. However if working my own mare it's only a short session as a warm up. 10 mis or so. I could just lead her around but it's more FUN to play with some liberty! 

My youngster who I'm working on starting and is a difficult mare and the parelli methods have worked wonders with her.

Riding wise I'm looking at going back to ARC so have been focusing on my jumping and dressage


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

i did, they said that the injuries could have been from the feild or anywhere, but his was the same person who taught me to ride with using only whips, so that might be the only person in the world but one is still to many


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

smrobs, i dont just mean temperament, my horse doesnt show signs of lameness well, so i have to play with her on the ground properly to see if she is in any pain.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I have boyfriends that probably wish I was Parelli trained :wink:


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I guess that's just another place where our experiences differ. If I have hands on a horse, I normally don't even need to see them move to tell when something is off.


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## VetTech2011 (Nov 3, 2011)

Nope, I do not use Parelli's methods. 

First of all, I don't think of training as "games" or "play time" and I don't want to spend over $200 for each DVD set. Sure I took lessons over the years from a wonderful local horse trainer ... he admired Ray Hunt and I agree fully with the logic behind the "method" - but anything I did on the ground? I learned from the horse, fallowed by common sense. There are a few DVD's available on his website but the cost is a fraction of what Parelli would charge. I have only seeked out one additional trainer for help with my horse and we participated in a 3 day clinic and it was the best money I had spent. I like trainers that don't try to sell me a bunch of useless murchandise. For example: There is nothing special about a Parelli halter, lead rope etc. when its something I can buy locally or even make myself for a fraction of the cost. 

Parelli offers a simple laid out program of basic ground exercises. It's nothing new. It's nothing special. It's just in a very simply explained form with great marketing and high prices. 

I own and ride a horse that only total 4 people can ride ... he is just mentally unique. I didn't use any fancy expensive training programs or fancy equipment. I learned how to read the horse and used my common sense. I can have my horse circle me at liberty if I'd like ... I didn't drill it in his brain... it's about the feel, I know when to ask him to move forward and when to back off, and how to guide him around iwth nothing but body language. 

In simple terms I don't think a lot of Parelli


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## Kimmylikestojump (Dec 20, 2011)

To each their own. Parelli must work for some people, I just can't see it being very practical. 

The day I ask my horse for permission to mount is the day that someone needs to check me for dementia. I pay the bills, I decide when and where we ride. Buddy doesn't seem to mind.

Edit to add:

Besides, how does all this liberty/groundwork translate to under saddle work? I've free lunged many a horse in circles around me, never once have a needed to do it.


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

I think NH and parelli have some good concepts, and when an experienced, knowledgeable horse person applies them, some fabulous things can be achieved.
However, I do not like the brainwashing that sometimes goes hand in hand with the 'Parelli method' in particular.
Just because you may not be a disciple, does not mean you are abusive to your horse. 
Just because you are a disciple, does not mean you may Not be abusive. (Savvy, this friend of yours sounds like an abysmal horse owner. As she would prob still be even if she 'trained' under Parelli>)

I think the most dangerous part of the Parelli method is that it allows inexperienced or timid horse owners to believe that they can 'gentle' any horse, if only they use kindness and play the '7 games' with them. This is how people get hurt.

I am extremely mistrustful of all of the labelling that goes on as well. I think the whole 'horsenalities' concept is a load of malarky. Not every horse fits neatly into one of those catagories. Can you imagine any of our forum members who actually has a job in horses relying on that?
Kevinshorses: Lets see, I can't use Dusty today, because he is right brained introvert, and it is windy today, so that won't work. Bucky is left.. no, right? ..extrovert, and its Tuesday, so that aint happening. And Star didnt want me to ride her today when I asked her, so thats out. Aw crap, where is my bicycle??


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## skippatuffson (Dec 25, 2011)

I went to one clinic and saw a lot of hype, extravagantly priced stuff, and a lot of inexperienced wanta be horse trainers. I take the good I can find from instructors and clinicians and use some skills by adding them to what I already know and do correctly. Some of the things I saw at the clinic made no sense at all and could be dangerous for any of us to try. Common sense. Look at many views. Look at many trainers. Take the best from each and use what makes sense.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I play with my horse at liberty by letting him be completely without a halter and I just run around and he stays by my side. But I don't do anything parelli related. I just understand my horse and whatnot. He looks to me as a leader, and a friend. But I don't like the methods used to get the horses to where they are. He's always in the mood to be ridden and we don't ask each other if we feel like riding, or we'd never ride! Because, heck, sometimes I don't even feel like it, but I do it anyway because it's good for us both and once I'm in the saddle, we're both happy.

It seems all fun and good, but I'm not a parelli fan. My horse isn't either from the exposure he had. And I rather not ride with a carrot stick.. I am ever so clumsy.. I don't even have a whip. It's all from my body.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

savvygirl559 said:


> id hate to get on her without her wanting me to.



This is where I get totally lost, obviously I want to make sure that my horse isn't ill or hurting, but I do those checks when I catch him, groom him and tack him up. Also I'm watching him as I hand walk between the saddle going on and 2 tightenings, before I mount.

After that he knows the routine, we go to the mounting block, I'm going to get on and ride, and I really don't care if he 'wants' to or not, it's going to happen:wink:


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## skippatuffson (Dec 25, 2011)

Skippatuffson likes this


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

savvygirl559 said:


> mls, a horse that does parelli, can do everything that anyother horse can do. and natisha, yes, i would like her permission, i dont think id like someone to come up to me and sit on me without asking first  and if shed rather graze (which my horse does) i would change her mind, take her somewhere where she cannot eat, and make her do something (like figure 8 at trot or canter) then she will think, would i rather have her on my back or do cantering circles?


I am very confused. :?

So you go get your horse, play your games and upon asking permission to ride, she tells you to go pound sand. You then take her somewhere she does NOT WANT to be (IE "where she cannot eat") and FORCE her to work until she gives in and says you can ride her.

Why is her opinion asked, if all you are going to do is punish her if you don't like the response? It would be like me asking my kiddo if she wanted to wear her blue shirt or her red shirt and when she chose red, spanking her because *I* wanted her to wear the blue one.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Delfina said:


> I am very confused. :?
> 
> So you go get your horse, play your games and upon asking permission to ride, she tells you to go pound sand. You then take her somewhere she does NOT WANT to be (IE "where she cannot eat") and FORCE her to work until she gives in and says you can ride her.
> 
> Why is her opinion asked, if all you are going to do is punish her if you don't like the response? It would be like me asking my kiddo if she wanted to wear her blue shirt or her red shirt and when she chose red, spanking her because *I* wanted her to wear the blue one.


And therein lies the great mystery as to what is so wonderful about the mustachioed one and his ways......one would think that if the horse says, "Not today, thank you." then you should just take them back to the field, turn them out and maybe offer a nice mani/pedi and massage, no?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

My guess is that the OP meant that she does some ground work prior to mounting to see if her horse has a good attitude for being worked.
Asking it's permission might not be the best way to describe it. But I think she means that she wants to see if there are any real issues. If the horse displays a bad attitude, and it is not pain or lameness related (also helps to see by creating movement in the horse to observe), then the bad attitude might need some adjustment. I think her description of taking him to somewhere without the distraction of grass and working him til he became less resistant is not so farfetch to be worthy of mocking. Personally, that makes reasonable sense.

I dont' always do the "preflight check" with Mac, but if he feels a bit "off", either physically or mentally, I may take him into the round pen and work with him a bit. My thinking there is that I want his mind, that is far away in this kind of a situation, to release that hard hold on some outward thing and come back to being focussed on me. Sometimes I feel a real change in the horse, and I am really glad I took the time to work with him. Other times, well, I s'pose I just wasted some of our time. 

But I am not, and I think a large percentage of the members here are not, the kind of horse person that uses horse in daily life for work. I dont' have the background skill and training that Smrobs or Kevinshorse have. But, working with NH ideas has helped me tremendously for the level of riding that I do and for what I can expect from my horse, and can get from my horse , as per MY skills and level of riding.

One should remember that not all of us had the benefit of a ranch childhood or the access to daily riding or skilled teachers onhand .


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

Tinylily, you are I think a great example of an intelligent person who has taken the best traits of NH and applied it to their personal horsey situation. I am glad it has worked well for you, as have some ideas worked for me in the past.
It is your second sentence that has caught my attention.>>
"Asking its permission might not be the best way to describe it."

Therein lies the problem with Parelli, because that is Exactly how he describes it.
Everything is packaged, numbered, catagorized, and set up in '10 Easy Steps to Train Your Horse in 10 Specific Sessions.'
I used to have the 7 games book about 10 yrs ago. I put it away because I got tired of having to run back and check to make sure I was doing everything right in the exact correct order in order to 'graduate' to level 3.
It is the gimmick, schtick, and inconsistencies in public (remember Linda??) which make the real 'working' horsemen and women view him so disdainfully.

Do I think parelli is a good horseman? Yes, as a matter of fact I do. I have seen him do some amazing things in the roundpen with youngsters.
But I think he has become primarily a showman and business man.
After all, you can't possibly train your horse without this carrot stick, and that set of dvds.

Perhaps I am bitter because 2 personal friends of mine have fallen for it, and have become mindless followers. They are both newbies, and refuse to listen to Any advice except Parelli. And they can't understand why their horses have no manners, and are borderline dangerous.
Maybe because you can't train a horse just from a book, not when you have no prior horse experience!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Skips,

I agree with you quite a bit more than you might realize. 

I just wanted to post that the OP's wording made it sound funny. But now I am hearing that this is how Pat words it? Yeah , I didn't know that.
I have not read much of his stuff, finding that I cannot keep all the new names and categories and his sayings also are irksome.
I have some strong misgivings about Parelli. The training that I have received is marked different.

But I think the OP has said that she doesn't take it hook , line and sinker. She uses what works, and there is some good sense to the "preflight" check she is talking about. especially for the weekend warrior type rider/horse combo.


I have a dear friend who drank the koolaid, but she is worth the effort of looking for the good in Parelli work and ignoring the bad, 'cause she's a good friend and they dont' grow on trees.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> i do understand what you are saying duffyduck but with that other girl making her horse bleed, i just couldnt face it even though i know its not cruel, i just break down and snivvles. she had her horse put down because she 'wouldnt listen to the whip and was too slow' its not that i hate tradtional, it brings back bad memories


Perhaps you misread my post- It was meant to read, that if a horse is trained CORRECTLY there should be absolutely no need to beat and whip the bejeebus out of it. Using whips and spurs should be done properly and fairly.
If the horse was treated that cruely the girl would have been thrown off any yard I know.

Also, I have to agree with natisha... you ASK your horse if it wants to be ridden o.0
Maybe its just me, but my horse knows its job, and there is a job to be done. My boss doesn't phone me up on a daily basis and ask if I want to work or stay in bed all day.


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

the problem in following one method is that people often stop looking at horse and think only about doing program.
I consider 'natural rider' to be the person who thinks about developing relationship with a horse. Someone who doesn't put achievements before a horse. Someone who keeps in mind horse's best interest, allow a horse to show its opinion, and see horse's resp Ionses.
People like this are from PNH, SH, are jumpers or doing dressage (Karen Rohlf is a great example). It doesn't really matter, but they must consider a horse. It also doesn't matter which tools they use. btw Mark Rashid is very reasonable person.
Funny thing is that 'naturals' from pnh aren't natural when they follow the method without thinkig (according to my definition). But I don't mean that pnh is bad. I have learnt a lot from Parelli but I don't agree with everything.
About asking a horse for a permission: it is ok to allow your horse to express itself and it isn't ok to completely ignore that, but you can't always ask your horse for everything! You decide. Especially if you want to be a leader for your horse. How can you expect a horse to treat you as a leader when ypu can't make decisions? If it is all up to ypur horse then he becomes a leader.
But as always there's a way in the middle of that when you follow your common sense.



> I think the most dangerous part of the Parelli method is that it allows inexperienced or timid horse owners to believe that they can 'gentle' any horse, if only they use kindness and play the '7 games' with them. This is how people get hurt.


In lower levels of pnh there are some conditions that you shouldn't work with stallions, dangerous or difficult horses. It is for safety. What people think and do is not because of the sytem but because some people are like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Golden Horse said:


> This is where I get totally lost, obviously I want to make sure that my horse isn't ill or hurting, but I do those checks when I catch him, groom him and tack him up. Also I'm watching him as I hand walk between the saddle going on and 2 tightenings, before I mount.
> 
> After that he knows the routine, we go to the mounting block, I'm going to get on and ride, and I really don't care if he 'wants' to or not, it's going to happen:wink:


Totally agree. My horse gets approxinately 23 hours a day to do what HE wants. I figure he can give me (or right now, the trainer) one. I have done "Parelli", (or CA, or CC, pretty much the same) groundwork, and yeah, as smrobs said-it is nice, when I feel like spending the time. Shoot-I spent all last winter at a "Parelli" barn, because there were no other indoor arenas within 30 miles that would let me ride western. I learned a lot, and it was great. But mostly I learned that I like good old fashioned horsemanship. Plain and simple without all the sticks and ropes. While I was at the "Parelli" place, I also learned that the whole "horsenality" crap is just that. My guy was labeled as an "LBI", so I spent the winter trying to get him to go forward.....it really, in the long run did no good. Get him with a "traditional" trainer-and yup-just as I thought. He is LAZY!.. No, he doesn't get a treat every time he does some minor thing right......and he now has to figure out how to do what the trainer is asking, not vise versa. Bottom line is I want a horse I can do something (reining) with. I am not getting any younger, and do not have 15 yrs (I know that is an exageration, but he has learned more in 6 wks than the previous 18 months) to convince my "widdle howsey" he wants to do it!. FINALLY we are making progress! Mind you this horse has been thru 6 owners who ALL have done some form of NH with him and got frustrated with his "LBI" mentality, throwing his little hissy fits and getting "stuck". He now is getting to know his job. He also now has a future actually DOING something with a rider!

OP-I do not understand how you can say you don't need the DVD's etc-how else do you learn? Osmosis?

And, BTW, saying that "Parelli trained horses can do anything other horses do" does NOT tell us what YOUR horse actually does. We have yet to hear that-other than have you very well trained........:wink:


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## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

may work for some but I find most of it to be a JOKE!


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

I jump my horse and sometimes help herd the cows 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

Some of the parelli stuff I like, other stuff goes out the window. I like the 7 games but don't believe they need to be done all in order exactly as is said. I do find it a whole bunch of ways to ask the horse to move how I want. 

Some days I can be indecisive as to what I want to do especially after teaching lessons for 3 hours doing bandage changes on the bosses horse. Coordinating the girls helping out and ensuring everythingnis done. In these cases it can be nice to look at a list of things and say ok I'll work from here to here today. In exercise one, say small jumps on a completely loose rein all at trot, something doesn't work, today our trot is rushy for example, I'll stop what I'm doing and fix that issue if it takes me all ride.

I do alot of liberty as warm ups because it's more fun then leading the horse at walk and trot. Sometimes I like the cool tricks like playing with the ball. All in all I ride to have fun and I don't care who markets what program if it works I'll use it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Funny how "widdle howsey" , a mocking term, for sure, gets appended to NH users pretty exclusively. I call my horses all kinds of nonsense "love" name, (none of the little howsey, though), but I 've noticed that the hunter jumper rider in our barn, the dressage rider and the owner of non broke filly tend to do the same. The use of love names isn't limited to any one genre of riding.
Currently, I call Zulu, the 17 hh draft cross, "Bubby".


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

henia said:


> In lower levels of pnh there are some conditions that you shouldn't work with stallions, dangerous or difficult horses. It is for safety. What people think and do is not because of the sytem but because some people are like that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But, you see, that doesn't mean anything that he warns against studs or dangerous/difficult horses. It can take as little as a few weeks with someone inexperienced for a typical, well mannered horse to become "dangerous" through inadequate training and/or improper handling.

I believe that what Skips was getting at is that those DVD's give people who are completely new to horses the idea that they can go out and buy a weanling or unbroke 2 year old, play these games, and end up with a well-trained, willing partner...._if_ you buy the stick and the halter and the saddle and the pad and the DVDs. They give new or inexperienced horse people the false sense of experience and ability.

It's kind of like giving someone a book on human anatomy, a few tapes of surgeons doing their thing, and then expecting them to perform open heart surgery. There is a _lot_ more to it than just knowing a bunch of terms, hearing the ideas behind methods, and watching someone trained/experienced performing.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

As it is the same with every other type of training method out there! A good horse can be completely ruined by training methods even if it is NH or traditional, it depends on the person training them. And with any training method you have to buy something! In traditional, bridle, saddle, headcollar whip and so on. In parelli halter, rope, carrot stick. The same applies with everything else! I have never bought a DVD or anything like that and I am completely fine!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

savvygirl559 said:


> As it is the same with every other type of training method out there! A good horse can be completely ruined by training methods even if it is NH or traditional, it depends on the person training them. And with any training method you have to buy something! In traditional, bridle, saddle, headcollar whip and so on. In parelli halter, rope, carrot stick. The same applies with everything else! I have never bought a DVD or anything like that and I am completely fine!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unless you are always planning or riding a buck naked horse, buck naked, I suppose you are right. Something to be purchased for anything. Difference is, I can put my butt IN my saddle, and ride him.:wink: Same cannot be said for dvds.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

henia said:


> the problem in following one method is that people often stop looking at horse and think only about doing program.


VERY true, I agree highly with this statement.



henia said:


> I consider 'natural rider' to be the person who thinks about developing relationship with a horse. Someone who doesn't put achievements before a horse. Someone who keeps in mind horse's best interest, allow a horse to show its opinion, and see horse's responses.


This is also very true, I try to make things as lovely for my horse as possible and if something isn't working, I stash it in my toolbox for another time. I know my horse begs for us to be done on days where he gets lunged first and then ridden, and I listen. I tell him "okay we'll work on this one thing, and when we get it down, we'll stop. And we both put our effort into it and it comes out really nice and he gets slack reins and a few minutes on the grass as his reward. 

I don't like the Parelli wording, tinyliny made that clear to me when I read her post. And as I said earlier, I don't like some of the methods... but I did play those 7 games with him. We had a 7 games playday (more like a workshop but whatever!) with an 8 mo foal and an OTTB with a bum knee and they were so happy and they felt safe and we all learned by watching the others get through the 'scary monsters.' And we got the parelli ball and the foal taught the two biggies to play and kick it back. 

I'm open to learning.. but if I don't like something, or my horse doesn't like it (and by like I mean respond to it well, be positive about the situation, feel safe, etc.) then I put it away for later. Cause one day I might need to get my horse to back up without going near.. maybe because there is something infront of him that is dangerous.. like a snake or a kid or God knows what. But for now, we're doing fine without it.



henia said:


> About asking a horse for a permission: it is ok to allow your horse to express itself and it isn't ok to completely ignore that, but you can't always ask your horse for everything! You decide. Especially if you want to be a leader for your horse. How can you expect a horse to treat you as a leader when ypu can't make decisions? If it is all up to ypur horse then he becomes a leader.
> But as always there's a way in the middle of that when you follow your common sense.


I agree with this to a degree.. yes I decide when we do stuff.. but if I can tell my horse isn't feeling it that day, I keep the riding short and focused on doing a little of what he does really well (to get his confidence up) and then work in some stuff we struggle with.. and end it there. 

Like I said earlier.. there are days where I sometimes don't feel like riding, so I do a favor to my horse and myself, and listen to those feelings.



In lower levels of pnh there are some conditions that you shouldn't work with stallions, dangerous or difficult horses. It is for safety. What people think and do is not because of the sytem but because some people are like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

And that is exactly why I, among others, advocate against people _buying_ any horse or attempting to _train_ any horse without hands on help from a good, experienced trainer or horse-person. Some people get lucky and end up with tolerant horses that don't change no matter what you do to them. Others are not so lucky, as can be seen by almost every thread in the training section of the forum.

People buy horses they aren't prepared for, and when problems come up, instead of consulting with a trainer or instructor, they buy a DVD or ask questions of a bunch of strangers on the internet. That is exactly why there are so many threads that are full of responses that say "GET A TRAINER". 99% of what a person needs to know about handling horses simply _cannot_ be learned from watching videos or reading posts.

A large part of the mentality of people in general comes from the box-set trainers who advertise all their stuff all over the place. It gives naive people delusions of grandeur in regards to horses. Some people were still that way before the DVD revolution, but it was not nearly so common as it is now.

In all seriousness though, for all the nonsense I think it is, I shouldn't complain that much. It's job security for me because I'm one they bring their horses to when they can no longer handle them. :lol:


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

I personally think the dvd's are rubbish! they show what pat parelli does, and he explains! but i dont think everyone who does parelli will be able to start out doing stuff as good as he does! he is a very good horseman but isnt very good at teaching beginners with a dvd! even if they dvd did have stuff with beginners, if something was going wring, you would have no clue how to solve it! i agree with anyone who thinks buying the dvds is useless!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

savvygirl559 said:


> I personally think the dvd's are rubbish! they show what pat parelli does, and he explains! but i dont think everyone who does parelli will be able to start out doing stuff as good as he does! he is a very good horseman but isnt very good at teaching beginners with a dvd! even if they dvd did have stuff with beginners, if something was going wring, you would have no clue how to solve it! i agree with anyone who thinks buying the dvds is useless!


OK-so my question to you is, if you did not have help, nor did you get the DVDs, how did you learn "Parelli"? Osmosis? Or, do you do "games" similar to PP and think you are doing "parelli"?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

franknbeans said:


> OP-I do not understand how you can say you don't need the DVD's etc-how else do you learn? Osmosis?


I am curious about this as well. If the DVD's are crap, then how are you learning the Parelli method? Youboob videos? Books? Or do you have some access to PP himself that we are unaware of?


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

when i started learning parelli at my yard, an person who had been doing parelli for years and was amazing taught me how to do everything, personally i think that this is how it should be done  so that everything you do, you know is right and you have a happy respectful horse! if done wrong, it can be as bad as any other training method gone wrong! and about asking my horse for permission, i dont exactly ask her, i see if she is fine with me riding her. if im getting on and she pulls a face, i check her girth and under her saddle to see if shes in any discomfort and if she isnt and just doenst want me to ride, i will make her do some circles until she realises its better to have me on her back, than doing harder work on the ground  this is what i mean by asking not literally, 'can we go for a ride' 'no' 'okay then, back to the field'


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

smrobs said:


> I am curious about this as well. If the DVD's are crap, then how are you learning the Parelli method? Youboob videos? Books? Or do you have some access to PP himself that we are unaware of?


i know lots pf people who are amazing at parelli and they have taught me, okay?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> Funny how "widdle howsey" , a mocking term, for sure, gets appended to NH users pretty exclusively. I call my horses all kinds of nonsense "love" name, (none of the little howsey, though), but I 've noticed that the hunter jumper rider in our barn, the dressage rider and the owner of non broke filly tend to do the same. The use of love names isn't limited to any one genre of riding.
> Currently, I call Zulu, the 17 hh draft cross, "Bubby".


I think that most of us call our horses by funny names.......looks round....Oh well maybe it's just me and you then.

I call my 17hh of black powder keg Benjamin Bunny, or Bunnykins, but I NEVER EVER forget that he has the size and power to flatten me by accident. At the moment I'm doing my own version of 'playing games' with him, I groom him, tack him up, lunge him, long rein him, all good useful stuff to improve the communication and trust between us, in preparation for actually riding him.

The trouble I have seen and read about with some parelli followers is that they never progress past playing games, and that and calling them horsie worsie makes you wonder if they would be better off having a pet dog. That together with the general manners of some Parelli trained horses leads you to wonder.

Again not saying it's all bad, and like most things you can take good bits out. I think with a lot of us the thing that tends to grate is the rabid followers who think that here is no other way, and that us conventional people are all whip happy abusers.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

I agree, there is no point doing parelli (without a mixture of other training methods) if you only do the seven games! They are the foundation! Like they teach horses not to break gait, to get out of space, and listen to steady pressure(which is used to turn) and rhythmic pressure (to go forwards and backwards), if you do this and this only, there is not point!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

savvygirl559 said:


> when i started learning parelli at my yard, an person who had been doing parelli for years and was amazing taught me how to do everything, personally i think that this is how it should be done  *That is the best way to learn anything, and I am glad you had a mentor.*
> so that everything you do, you know is right and you have a happy respectful horse! *Lets be clear. ALL of us make mistakes, even Parelli-ites. That does NOT mean we have unhappy, disrespectful horses who don't "like" us anymore. *if done wrong, it can be as bad as any other training method gone wrong!* In a reallllllll hurry.* and about asking my horse for permission, i dont exactly ask her, i see if she is fine with me riding her.* and the difference is.........?* if im getting on and she pulls a face, i check her girth and under her saddle to see if shes in any discomfort *Most of us do that I think. If our horse is noticeably different than other days we double check them. *and if she isnt and just doenst want me to ride, i will make her do some circles until she realises its better to have me on her back, than doing harder work on the ground  this is what i mean by asking not literally, 'can we go for a ride' 'no' 'okay then, back to the field'


As I said-I have done Parelli, and to some extent, I "get it". Does NOT mean I agree with much of it. However-the whole "asking permission" which as I recall is how PP refers to it-reminds me of fairies, unicorns and buttterflies...... and it is difficult for me to take anyone seriously who even SAYS this! It just makes me laugh. After all, we all have to do things we don't want to. The thought that my horse should somehow be excluded from this concept is just silly, IMO. 
Sometimes our horses try and manipulate us. It is MY OPINION, and it is just that-that PP feeds into that. My horse, labeled the LBI in Parelli speak, remember, is the master manipulator. The whole thought that I spent last winter "opening the door" for my horse so that he would go forward-I now laugh at. He doesn't want to go forward? Ok. Then perhaps the heel of my boot in your ribs will change your mind. (with a spur (**GASP**) if needed. I am no longer going to sit on top of him and basically beg him. Life is too short. And you know what-HE GETS IT! And after only a couple of weeks! Not months! Finally we are making progress!

I know Parelli works for some. I can only tell you what has been my personal experience with it. I think it is a lot of hot air, and I for one, am over it.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I think the status under your avatar sum up good horse training Frankn!

if we all set out to:

Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult.​
Then there would be less problems:wink:


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

Franknbeans: I really understand what you mean! I would never have started doing parelli if there wasn't anyone there to teach and help me, I would have made a lot more mistakes than I did! And, I am DEFINATELY NOT saying that you cannot get a happy respectful horse without using Parelli, that is stupid! There are wonderful trainers out there that can get the same results as parelli but using a different method, I am just saying that parelli was the best way for me and my horse to achieve it  and by okay with me riding her I mean is she in any discomfort . And also, I completely agree with you about the mistake thing, I made more as I was first starting Parelli! My horse would walk all over me and I would move and except it! That was maybe the worst mistake I have ever made with a horse! Which is why you CAN'T RELY on parelli DVDs! And even though I made those mistakes, they have been corrected and my horse does like me and is happy! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

And the same is said with lots of other training methods 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I once hired a Parelli follower as a part time barn worker. The job included free board for her horse. I figured what she did with her own horse was none of my business. However, she would walk around with her horse loose because she expected him to follow her & a few times I had to intervene when her horse decided to go in another direction, usually towards another boarder working with their tied or ridden horse. She would lay on the ground behind her loose, grazing horse (on my lawn) I guess to show off how much he loved her. 
She did not turn horses out safely, left gates & doors open too long- basically counted on the 'honor system' of horse handling. 
Other boarders complained & a few said they did not want her handling their horses. She had unsafe practices & when they were pointed out to her she always had some Parelli type excuse about being in a partnership & giving the horses options.
She was fired.
I now understand why there are Parelli only barns.


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## rocky pony (Oct 5, 2007)

I'll admit that I haven't read through this entire topic, that's just too much for me.
I just wanted to put my two cents in.

The OP sounds like a lovely horsewoman and I definitely respect that. Personally I can't stand Parelli, but I don't argue with results (that involve fair, respectful handling of a horse and achieving what is set out to be done without excessive force) and when it works for somebody I think that's great. However, I have found that about 95% of the Parelli people I have encountered (and mind you I board at an NH-based barn with emphasis on Parelli) did not know how to properly handle a horse that was displaying dangerous behaviour of any kind, could not comfortably ride a horse that was not previously dead broke, were regularly not just scared but seemingly terrified of their own horses, and could not even think to set goals for themselves or their horses because they were never able to a achieve them, all while claiming to be better able to bond with a horse than the average horseperson. Supposedly what they do is supposed to be softer and gentler and easier to understand than other methods of training, but I have very often seen sloppy, messy-looking and often harsh displays I could not understand even with step-by-step instruction, and what I'm describing was the people at higher levels who were trained and very familiar with the method. I find that all extremely unfortunate.
The remaining 5% have seemed to be very successful in what they set out to do and handled a wide range of horses with at least reasonable confidence. The common theme there was a pretty unanimous agreement that the newer material is a lot of BS and oftentimes they incorporated other training methods into their horsemanship at least on some level. I have nothing to say against that at all, I can completely respect that.

I often find it confusing, however, that it's seemingly such a common thought among Parelli followers that there are only two methods of horsemanship: Parelli and traditional. Then I often find that that concept of "traditional" horsemanship is a bit warped on top of that.
As a self proclaimed anti-Parellite, I personally train in a manner that can only be described as natural horsemanship as it is almost completely derived completely from studying the way horses think and behave and communicating with them in ways that make clear sense to them quickly if not immediately, following that way of thinking, as well as a lot of good old hands-on trial and error to figure out what each individual horse responds best to. I'm not sure it can get more natural than that as long as you're still a predator strapping a saddle to a prey animal's back and asking him to carry you around on it.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

Natisha, I hate it when people at my place do that! Just because you do parelli doesn't mean you can't take precautions or be safe! Just because she knows her horse won't do anything doesn't mean that any others won't!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> Natisha, I hate it when people at my place do that! Just because you do parelli doesn't mean you can't take precautions or be safe! Just because she knows her horse won't do anything doesn't mean that any others won't!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The thing is her horse seldom did what she wanted. She'd leave him standing loose in the barn aisle & walk away for some reason & I'd have to catch him as he trotted down the driveway or into the arena with other horses being worked. She gave him "freedom to make choices", jeeze he's a horse. 
She made poor choices with her own horse & I couldn't take the chance that she would do the same with someone else's horse. She was generally a flake & her Parelli excuses were more than I could handle with an employee. She wasn't open minded, maybe I'm not either :wink:


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

if my horse wanted to walk off, I would give her 'freedom of choice' I wouldn't let her! Its like her saying to you, 'I don't want to work today' and you say 'okay, freedom of choice!' And especially because she is an employee, she should stick by the rules if your yard and set and example for people who ride/board there! I completely agree!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HorseyyGal (Jun 20, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> I'm going to get on and ride, and I really don't care if he 'wants' to or not, it's going to happen:wink:


 Sorry Golden Horse but this seems like you really don't respect your horse at all! Would you like it if someone grabbed you out of your bed & put you to work without having some fun first? :lol:


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

HorseyyGal said:


> Sorry Golden Horse but this seems like you really don't respect your horse at all! Would you like it if someone grabbed you out of your bed & put you to work without having some fun first? :lol:


That pretty much describes what happens when I have to go to work.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

What makes you think the 'games' you play with your horse are something he/she considers fun? As far as the horse is concerned it's_ all _work, regardless of what the clueless predator on the other side of the round pen thinks! :wink:

I do not ask my horse's permission to ride him, just as my supervisor doesn't ask my permission to do work for pay. Oh, no thank you, boss! I'd rather just sit here and play on the interwebz all day! KThnx!!! 

My horses do not get to choose what we do or don't do, _I_ do. _I'm_ the herd leader, and what I say goes. My relationship with each of them is just fine, because I find that horses are MORE willing when they have a strong, confident _leader_. 

You can and should be friends with your horses, but being someone the animals can look up to is _much_ more important. Respect is mandatory; friendship is optional. I'd much rather my horses respected me than 'lurved' me, because with respect they're less likely to try and walk all over me.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

savvygirl559 said:


> if my horse wanted to walk off, I would give her 'freedom of choice' I wouldn't let her! Its like her saying to you, 'I don't want to work today' and you say 'okay, freedom of choice!' And especially because she is an employee, she should stick by the rules if your yard and set and example for people who ride/board there! I completely agree!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


and when i said i would give her freedom of choice, i mean woulnt


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

Speed Racer said:


> What makes you think the 'games' you play with your horse are something he/she considers fun? As far as the horse is concerned it's_ all _work, regardless of what the clueless predator on the other side of the round pen thinks! :wink:
> 
> I do not ask my horse's permission to ride him, just as my supervisor doesn't ask my permission to do work for pay. Oh, no thank you, boss! I'd rather just sit her and play on the interwebz all day!


what makes you think your horse considers them work?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

HorseyyGal said:


> Sorry Golden Horse but this seems like you really don't respect your horse at all! Would you like it if someone grabbed you out of your bed & put you to work without having some fun first? :lol:


Are you serious?

If you have a good relationship with your horse, s/he ENJOYS working.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> and when i said i would give her freedom of choice, i mean woulnt


I knew what you meant


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

okay good :')


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## HorseyyGal (Jun 20, 2011)

natisha said:


> That pretty much describes what happens when I have to go to work.


 That's why most people don't like work  So why don't we try & change our horses point of view? 

Speed racer, I can't vouch for others but my horse thoroughly enjoys our sessions! If he didn't like it, then he wouldn't do everything he offers with such exubherance


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

savvygirl559 said:


> what makes you think your horse considers them work?


I honestly have _no_ idea what you're saying here. :?:

I don't think most people hate their jobs, but I do think SOME people are spoiled little divas who think the world owes them a living. 

Horsey, what do you call exuberance? If the horse has pinned ears and is giving you death looks that's not exuberance, that's annoyance. I've seen far too many skeeved off 'Parelli-fried' horses than not, because they're bored and simply just TIRED of doing the same, repetitive stuff over and over again.

There's a time to quit playing games and actually get on and RIDE the animal. You don't _need_ to do however many 'games' there are every single time you take the horse out. For heaven's sake, get ON that animal and stop with all the silliness!


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## HorseyyGal (Jun 20, 2011)

mls said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> If you have a good relationship with your horse, s/he ENJOYS working.


 mls - deadly serious  I have a good relationship with my mother, but I still don't enjoy doing the dishes :lol:


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

speed racer, you said how do you know if your horse finds it fun? and i said (or meant ) how do you know that they dont?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

HorseyyGal said:


> mls - deadly serious  I have a good relationship with my mother, but I still don't enjoy doing the dishes :lol:


Perhaps she didn't train you correctly.


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## HorseyyGal (Jun 20, 2011)

mls said:


> Perhaps she didn't train you correctly.


 Yeah, maybe if she beat me with a crop for not doing it fast enough I'd get more out of it :lol:


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## HorseyyGal (Jun 20, 2011)

Speed Racer said:


> Horsey, what do you call 'exuberance'? If the horse has pinned ears and is giving you death looks, that's not exuberance, that's annoyance. I've seen far too many skeeved off 'Parelli-fried' horses than not, because they're bored and simply just TIRED of doing the same, repetitive stuff over and over again.


 At what point did I say my horse has pinned ears? Just because some of your parelli friends bore their horses doesn't mean we all so. Thanks for tarring us all with the same brush 

When I play with Border, his ears are pricked & his eyes are bright. He'll do everything I ask or suggest with gusto, tucking his legs right up over a jump or offering a canter to our circling game


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> What makes you think the 'games' you play with your horse are something he/she considers fun? As far as the horse is concerned it's_ all _work, regardless of what the clueless predator on the other side of the round pen thinks! :wink:
> 
> I do not ask my horse's permission to ride him, just as my supervisor doesn't ask my permission to do work for pay. Oh, no thank you, boss! I'd rather just sit here and play on the interwebz all day! KThnx!!!
> 
> ...




Sidebar-this just reminded me of how we raised our kids.:grin:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think some of the problem is with the use of the word "games" to describe the different actions that are used in Parelli training. Those same actions are used in pretty much all natural horsemanship training, but not called games. Once you use the word Game, it comes off as silly, not training.


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## HorseyyGal (Jun 20, 2011)

Good input tinyliny! The term "playing" will appeal to some, but come off as a "gimmick" to others. But at the end of the day the games are still excercises


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## Delfina (Feb 12, 2010)

Parelli himself chose the word "Games". :wink:

My horse's idea of a "game" is to stand in the barn and slurp any bare patch of my skin he can get to. When I'm really good and soggy, he then would like me to take him back to turnout and serve up a huge bucket of the "good" hay.

Doesn't mean he hates working, he got a month off for various reasons and yesterday when he realized I was taking him to the cross ties to tack him up, he about dragged me there in excitement. He was an awesome little guy and worked hard for me, so in return I kinda played his game. IE I dodged his slurping as much as possible (which I think he finds more fun than if I just stood there :lol but still ended up pretty soggy and gave him lots of the "good" hay in his turnout.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Hmm, I guess the reason I see no purpose behind the "games" is that I just don't need them. My horses are easy to catch, easy to handle, they never sull up or act ****y when I ask them to do something. I don't peck at them, I ask them to do something when it needs done and I leave them alone when I don't need something.

I think it was this thread but I don't remember so I may be repeating myself. I had a pony in for training this summer/fall. After the first few days, I never did any groundwork with him at all. I used him for daywork in a local feedlot where we normally hit a long trot as soon as it was light enough to see the cattle in the morning. We kept that same pace or faster for an entire day. When we got home in the evening, he was worn completely out. 

The next morning when I approached him with a halter in the dark, he would walk right up to me and stick his _own_ head in the halter, he would jump in the trailer when it was time to go with no encouragement from me, when we got to the 'lot and went to work, he always had a happy expression and was excited to get going. Every single day I rode him over there, he offered more and more of himself, tried harder and harder to get things right, was more and more willing, and faster to respond to every cue.

He had a grand total of about 20 rides on him, he'd had the rope swung off his back _once_, but when the need to rope a cow came up, he handled it like a horse that had done it a million times. That's because he respected me and trusted me enough to do something that he had _never_ done before...and do it confidently. We didn't need games, we didn't need gimmicks or speshul sticks.

If you handle the horse with the respect that they deserve and demand the respect that you deserve, the "love" and loyalty will just _come_, you don't have to work for it.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

I can't quite get my head around what the OP is saying.... that she needs to chase her horse around a round pen or an arena until it "decides" it wants to be ridden? Really? I just show up at the barn, brush the horse, put a saddle and bridle on, and away we go. 

Both the horse and I have been trained using natural-horsemanship style groundwork, but to be honest, we never "practice" the exercises unless I am demonstrating it to someone else. There's no need to. The horse knows what is expected of her and is respectful and soft when handled. I use the groundwork to establish boundaries with a horse but once the boundaries are there, I have more interesting things to do.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

First off, I didn't read all the replies, and I'm all for using whatever training system works for hypothetical-you and your horse. Whether its sticking to a brand-name trainer-in-a-box or drawing on a hodgepodge of accumulated wisdom from many sources, if you're getting the results you want, I say run with it. 

The majority of the problem I have with the Parelli system is that I honestly do not understand it. I can read a Parelli description of something very simple, say, driving a horse forward on a lungeline, that I and my horses know and can do as automatically as anything can be with a horse, and I literally have to read it 2-3 times before I can sort out what on earth is going on. They've truly reinvented the wheel. Dealing with horses is not rocket science, and they are not that complicated. That being said, I'm sure there are people for whom the Parelli explanations make more sense and clarifies the task, so that all evens out in the grand scheme of things. Just because I personally understand other BNT systems or non-BNT explanations easier does not make Parelli "bad." It just makes the system "not for me." My horses and I get on fine and dandy. 

I think the overall problem is bigger than any one tv trainer or boxed system. The problem is the widespread idea that any joe can learn horsemanship out of a box. I'm a huge fan of horsemanship tv shows, books, and DVDs - they are a fantastic resource, and as riders, owners, and trainers, we're lucky to have these things available. But the issue is that they are a resource, not a substitute for in-person guidance by someone with experience doing what you want to do. 

Trainer-in-a-box systems, no matter who's logo is embossed on the packaging, gives the impression that anyone, at any time, can do anything, with any horse, as long as you follow the recipe. The best a box system can do to rectify that is a trouble shooting section, essentially equating to a high-altitude variation on a cookie mix packet. Lots of people understand the importance of feel and experience, and compensate for these shortcomings of box systems, but at the same time there are a lot of people who do run into problems, and are left wondering why their souffle fell in when they followed the recipe to the letter. 

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. A little common sense and perspective can be invaluable, whether your horsemanship knowledge is based on a BNT boxed method or a less systematized collection of exercises and concepts.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I find the lingo hard to follow too. But any language is just gobledy **** until you learn it. You have to want to learn it.

But, I do want to add , since the title of this thread is Parelli, Your Thoughts? that the thing that I see that troubles me about people working with Parelli system is that they are focussing too much on the "system" and the steps andlosing sight of the horse. Working with a horse (in saddle or on ground, but especailly on ground where you have no actual physical touch with them) depends on having some "feel" with the horse. "Feel" requires an open communication loop with the horse. YOu feel him, you put pressure on him, he feels you , he moves/responds and you feel his response and on. If you are spending too much energy and focus on how you hold the carrot stick or how many steps he takes or which level of wiggle you put in the line, you will be missing the "feel" that is radiating out of your horse, consquently, you will not be able to respond accurately. The loop is broken.

I see sometimes, Parelli people working with the horse and the horse is doing the work ok, but the handler has not noticed that though the horse is doing the work, he is NOT there mentally . OR, he's doing it with real drag in his feet, or resentment/sass or he's scared or . . . They are satisfied and go on to the next step because, afterall, he DID the back up. But it's HOW he did the backup that matters.

Now, this isnt' saying that that is a fault of the system, and that a Parelli person is not capable of using "feel" when working with their horse. Just that because there is so much focus on it being a step by step system that it's easy for the practitioner to not realize what or why they are doing what they are, and whether or not the horse's doing it by rote or is really "there" by the quality of his doing the steps.


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## GhostwindAppaloosa (Jun 3, 2011)

my whole problem with parellii is that it gives people the idea that natural horsemanship means your asking the horse to do something. You never have to be firm with the horse etc. While on SOME horses this type of training might work. ... there is NO cookie cutter training method for every horse. Any training program needs to be tailored to the horse. 

I'm probably more online with Clinton Andersons methods. Only because to me they are practical... and make sense as to the reasons you are doing them. I hate when people call me up wanting natural horsemanship because they dont want their horses "abused". These people usually believe a whip is considered abuse and dont want anything to do with it. 

Horses are 1000-1200 lb animals. Respect is never optional and the day that people start asking their horses instead of telling them what to do is the day they become a very dangerous liability.


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## Appyloosah (Dec 30, 2011)

When I got my first horse, the people I knew with horses were very seriously into Parelli, so they showed me quite a bit. I think it is a well used concept that has been named and sold. I will not pay to "level up" or anything, but the foundation behind Parelli I think holds ground,


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

HorseyyGal said:


> Sorry Golden Horse but this seems like you really don't respect your horse at all! Would you like it if someone grabbed you out of your bed & put you to work without having some fun first? :lol:


I respect my horse (s) just fine, I respect them as the individuals that they are.

I respect that Fancy needs me to be brave for her at all times, she needs her person to lead, but never get angry, but Ace needs a partner, she will do everything I ask of her, but will put her own Arab twist on this, and rather than insist on 100% my way, we agree something in the middle, which is why she wont be going back in the dressage ring :lol:

G Man does not like to think when I am there so every move needs to be given to him, Big Bert needs endless reinforcement that she is doing things right. Ben now, I'm still doing ground work while I get a full handle in what makes him tick and what he needs from me.

This is the way I respect my horses, by understanding them, but when it comes time to ride, **** right they will ride.

Do I want to get up every day and feed humans dogs and horses, no, I would rather stay in bed, but it's my job.

Do I want to fight my way through a blizzard to make sure the horses are OK, no I'd rather stay indoors in the warm, but it's my responsibility to care for them.

There are times when I would like to buy something nice for me, but their needs for the farrier, vet, new saddles for their comfort etc come first.

SO NEVER EVER EVER tell me I have no respect for them, I never stop trying to do the best for them, and all I ask is they hang about look pretty and do an hour or two of work every few days, they have it easy.

OH, AND, I respect that some horses do not share my visions, and I have made the difficult decision to sell Fancy because it is very clear to me that she loves to be driven rather than ridden, she is a different pony under harness, so I'm trying to find the right driving home for her, rather than keep trying to make a her a riding pony.


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

Silverspear, I don't do ground work until my horse decides she wants to be ridden, I do some groundwork with her, to see if she is responding well to aids, to see if she is in pain at all and if she is safe to ride. Then I get on and if she pulls faces, I check her saddle and girth to see if she is in a discomfort (this is what I meant by asking) and if not, I play with her until she realises that she would rather me on her back than doing all this extra groundwork. Now I don't need to do this, but do about ten minutes to see if she its all okay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

savvygirl559 said:


> Silverspear, *I don't do ground work until my horse decides she wants to be ridden,* I do some groundwork with her, to see if she is responding well to aids, to see if she is in pain at all and if she is safe to ride. Then I get on and if she pulls faces, I check her saddle and girth to see if she is in a discomfort (this is what I meant by asking) and *if not, I play with her until she realises that she would rather me on her back than doing all this extra groundwork.* Now I don't need to do this, but do about ten minutes to see if she its all okay.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Maybe it's just me, but I see those two statements as a complete contradiction to each other. Basically, what I am hearing is that if your mare pulls a ****y face about being ridden for any reason other than pain, you "play" with her (I understand "play" to mean the 7 games or some variation of, which aren't actually games, but ground*work*) until she decides that a bad attitude about being ridden means that she gets worked until she changes her mind. What will you do when she someday decides that she's just going to stay in the ****y mood and _not_ change her mind about being ridden?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

smrobs said:


> What will you do when she someday decides that she's just going to stay in the ****y mood and _not_ change her mind about being ridden?


Respect her right to say no and take her out to the cinema instead?


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

savvygirl559 said:


> Silverspear, I don't do ground work until my horse decides she wants to be ridden, I do some groundwork with her, to see if she is responding well to aids, to see if she is in pain at all and if she is safe to ride. Then I get on and if she pulls faces, I check her saddle and girth to see if she is in a discomfort (this is what I meant by asking) and if not, I play with her until she realises that she would rather me on her back than doing all this extra groundwork. Now I don't need to do this, but do about ten minutes to see if she its all okay.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So your groundwork, "playing", is actually a kind of punishment? I understand groundwork before. When you decide that you must do groundwork while riding? What means pull faces?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> Respect her right to say no and take her out to the cinema instead?


:rofl:

No means no!!!!


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

i meant that if she was not responding well? i would rather her on the ground not responding well than with me in the saddle! when she starts responding snappily, i will get on! and it is not a punishment! if you were at work and your boss said that you have to do some more work, and you said no, then he said, if not, i want you to clean all the toilets in the building in 10 minutes. when you start you think, id rather do work! personally, i dont class that as punishment, you dont have to do it!


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

but I wouldn't call it playing because playing should be fun right? And you want her to do something that is not pleasure for her.
Could you give me an example of a sotuation when you get off her and do this extra ground work? What kind of problems do you prefer to solve from ground than from a saddle?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

i dont get off her! i would stand in one stirrup to see if she was okay and i she wasnt i would just take my foot out, i have never gotten on and then gotten off again! but that has never happened for no good reason. i think only once and she had a fly caught under her girth!


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## henia (Jul 31, 2011)

ok so I misunderstood you. I thought that you get off her and make her work when she misbehave while being riden.
What means pull faces?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## savvygirl559 (Jan 3, 2012)

no thats silly!  i meant if she was misbehaving on the ground. and ears back etc. but as i said she has only done that once and she was in a lot of discomfort!


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## Skipsfirstspike (Mar 22, 2010)

Again, the problem seems to lie with the labelling.
'A' says she 'plays' with her horse, B says she does 'groundwork'. The purpose of both is to engage the horse's brain, get it focused on you.
Yet we are incensed at the one who plays games, because we think it sounds ridiculous. 
I feel for the NHers who also have a wealth of common sense and horse sense, because they are overshadowed by the cult followers.
Ever see the Black Stallion? I liked it. So did a lot of horse people.
But the cult Believed it.
Here it is: The 'Parelli Method' is a trick. And I don't mean water into wine, That is a miracle, and pretty much what Parelli advertises. I don't mean pulling a rabbit out of your hat, either.
I mean a trick like Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown. Buy these dvds and you will become a horse whisperer... NOT! Your horse will ride bridleless because you have a special connection...NOT! Peaches doesn't 'want' me to ride? No prob, we will just 'play' until she does. Oh, and by play I mean relentlessly work her on repetitive actions until I force her to 'want' me to ride.
I have no problem if someone wants to mess around on the ground for 30 min before they get on, we all have different methods. I used to do it myself back when I had all day with just me and my horse and nothing to do.
I can appreciate someone who is not Joe Rodeo and wants to maybe 'get the buck out', esp if the horse has been in due to bad weather.
However, I also agree with smrobs that 'most' of us can tell in the time it takes to catch and saddle our horse if he is 'off'. 
Blah!
Meh.


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## EquestrianCowgirl4 (Jan 9, 2012)

I do Parelli and i love it! i have benifited so much from it!


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

My 2 cents on Mr & Mrs Parelli. First off, I am not meaning to offend anyone on here who DOES like Parelli, and second off...I'm am not in the whole NH movement to begin and probably shouldn't be posting in the NH section. It is not my intention to come in and cause discord.

The Parelli system is flawed. For a system that is SUPPOSED to be so basic, how come people get it so wrong. On other forums, when Parelli comes up and I relate my experiences with Parelli followers and their horses, the response I get it..."well, they aren't doing Parelli correctly." Well why is that? If the majority of people are getting it "wrong"...then what does that say about his system??

As for "asking" my horse permission to ride....LOL. I tack up I ride, there is no conversation about it. Like..."gee, Sidney, would you rather hang out in your stall and eat hay today?" The whole permission thing is comical. And the "horse-anilities? LOL

The biggest thing I DO NOT like about Parelli, is that neither of them can really ride worth a lick. They DO NOT train/teach balanced/centered riding and how to get a horse to use it's body. Since Mrs Parelli has been dabbling in Dressage, she actually has the gumption to ADVERTISE and MARKET publically....that SHE has discovered the secret for getting a horse "on the bit." I mean come on!!!! I saw it with my own two eyes on a website, and if you send a gazillion dollars before midnight tonight, YOU TO can learn her secret. Laughable.

And lastly, my horse was trained the old fashioned way by a conventional trainer. I can do SMS without a halter and I ride him bridleless once a week in lessons with my trainer; walk, jog, lope, circles, 360's, back ups etc. I do the bridleless because he will perform just with seat and leg. And let's face it folks, our hands are our worst enemies. It just reinforces the OTHER two aids. He's a WP horse that has been trained to the hilt the correct way; without abuse, torture, playing "games" etc. And he does it happily. Here's pics from last week....at the jog:


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

How big is the arena you're riding in there Gota?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> How big is the arena you're riding in there Gota?


100x60 I believe. I've done the same in the outdoor arena which is much bigger.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

It just looked like a nice arena, but for some reason it looked small, IDK why


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

It is on the smaller side, but perfectly workable with a few horses in there. No one does any jumping (my trainer has an AQHA show barn) so this size was good for the money he had available to spend. My trainer (the short guy in the middle of the arena...LOL) had one of those Coverall arenas and the thing collapsed under snow last February. This one is a Morton type building and not going anywhere....LOL.


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## VetTech2011 (Nov 3, 2011)

Asking my horse permission to ride? Oh my... if I did this I don't think I'd ever ride ... or if I did manage to get to ride and let my horse have his way I'd end up seriously hurt! He is a great horse but he does not get to make the decisions. 

Parelli is not marketing anything new. He just labled basic ground/handling exercises with childish names. I do believe a horse should easily yield its hind and forequarters when you step into him. I do believe he should back out of your space when asked (either by body language or on cue). I do believe a horse should be lunged with slack in the line and be responsive to your body and cues. If he can do it without a line that is awesome, you and your horse have good communication as to when to encourage him forward and when to back off. They are important training exericses for safety ... In my opinion they are good foundation exercises for any horse and handler and if you can't master them on the ground you have no business being in the saddle. 

I agree that I think parelli gives those with little to no horse experience a false sense of security. He DOES put it into an easy to fallow program, but I am still not a fan of it. I see videos on youtube where the handlers look as if they have little to no confidence or they are afraid to get "loud" with their body language. The horses just look so ... dead and unresponsive. It's just not right. 

I have also seen footage of Linda Parelli working with horses and it did not fallow his program what so ever. It was also a sight I do NOT agree with, nor would I ever "fallow" because it made NO sense and seemed to be accomplishing nothing except making an upset, frustrated horse ... which isn't going to get you too far. If you are doing the same thing for so long and not getting a response, maybe its time you change what your doing? 

I think if I did not have access to a good trainer or experienced horse handler/riding and I wsa going to spend money on DVD's ... I would put my money into Clinton Anderson rather then Parelli. At least his information seems more realistic and correct to me. Still expensive ... but its money better spent IMO. I don't even really see it as natural horsemanship ... I just see it as basic common sense exercises to get a soft, responsive and more respectful horse. I've never deemed it into a category before. I just do things a certain way because that's what makes sense to me and because it feels right to me and as a result I have a willing, soft horse and it makes my day very pleasent. I do certain things before each ride to get a focused, soft horse. It's just how I roll.


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## rockinD (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't think PNH is the end all be all of horsemanship, and I think there are a lot of different ways to accomplish the same goal, but I did develop an exceptionally strong bond with my mare that I used PNH with. She was a perfect trail horse before that and didn't "need" extra groundwork, and had it not been for the fact that I was intrigued, I wouldn't have done this with her. 

That same bond may have been developed regardless of what gentle methods I used with her, it may have just amounted to time and doing something other than just riding (she was very mechanical before that yet anyone could ride her) or just grooming, etc., but all in all it was a very positive experience for me. 

She went from being "yeah okay we'll ride" to "hey! what are we going to do today?". She would literally run up to the gate when I went out to the barn, ready to come out and "play". Part of that as well is that we did group activities and changed up what we worked on and where we did it and I think she found it more interesting than just riding in the few places we'd tend to go.

In my 20 years of horsemanship, I wouldn't have ever dreamed of inviting my friends over to have a group lunging session lol, so bottom line, for me, I think the concept of the games encouraged me to think outside of the box a little.


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## GoldSahara (May 4, 2010)

When I first started riding I was taught a method that while effective and kind, wasn't necessarily fun. I then didn't ride much for several years, then I got my first horse. Parelli helped me get back into the saddle again and gain confidence while at the same time learn to have fun. His methods of teaching worked for me at that time.

I now have developed a pretty good foundation with my horse and have been taking in more advice from other trainers, NH or not, including Clinton Anderson. Going back and watching Parelli now, the way he talks and the merchandise and money scheme he promotes annoys the heck out of me, but I still value his opinion. I actually learn a lot more from Linda than him, because I just can't get past his alliteration and double talk.

I think that Parelli has a lot of good lessons, but the whole branding and merchandising gets OLD. I used to keep my horse at an all Parelli barn, and while I liked the people there and we had a lot of fun, they could get rediculous about being only Parelli. I bought a rope halter and lead rope, made exactly like the Parelli kind, off of ebay. It was cheaper and came in purple . They looked at me like I was nuts, "but it isn't Parelli!"


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## furbabymum (Dec 28, 2011)

HorseyyGal said:


> Sorry Golden Horse but this seems like you really don't respect your horse at all! Would you like it if someone grabbed you out of your bed & put you to work without having some fun first? :lol:


My baby does this to me all of the time. Sometimes a couple times a night. I need to teach him to ask me politely first!


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

furbabymum said:


> My baby does this to me all of the time. Sometimes a couple times a night. I need to teach him to ask me politely first!


:lol: -- perhaps you should.


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## MyQHBooger428 (Jan 14, 2012)

The BO at the barn I board my guy at is a Parelli nutcase. Everytime I go to the barn and try to work with my horse all I hear is I am "doing it wrong, Parelli does it this way," "If you want a bond with your horse you have to use the Parelli method." Me and my horse have a good bond without The 'stach telling me what to do. In fact if I so much as pat my horse and tell him good boy I get lectured on how I'm scaring him. If he tries to bully me and push me around and I give him a smack I get lectured. My all time favorite was when I was riding she told me "to get Levi to move forward sit up straight, think big and smile with your butt." Yup....I am not a fan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

:rofl::rofl:
I was told the same thing! Yeah-smile with your butt.....that will do it! lol


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## MyQHBooger428 (Jan 14, 2012)

I literally just sat there on my horse, mouth open like "wha'." I asked how do you smile with your butt? I was mentally picturing rainbows flying out of my butt. Lol. She told me it means to squeeze your bum cheecks together. I was game, I tried. Levi literally looked back at me like "WTF mom?"LOL
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lunarflowermaiden (Aug 17, 2010)

My thoughts are that it is gimicky, over-priced (though I notice the prices on some of their things on their site have gone down some, down to $66 for non-members for their 22' rope, a while ago it was $80), sometimes dangerous in the wrong hands (namely Linda Parelli's, I will never forget the videos of her that went around).

It might have some value at its core. But I'll never get past the wacky outside.


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## SportHorseHeaven (Jan 11, 2012)

First of all I do like parelli.....however it aint really his teachings...if you listen to him he gives a hundred names of where he learnt his technique and tips all he has done is packaged it up and sold it to the world!

I have trained horses for years and my latest horse was not taking to the tradional training..however he really likes the games that parelli does and understand that really well, luckily for me one of my friends bought all the dvds lol. My first horse who I trained hates parelli! Which is fine I won't force it on him he is already a fabulous family horse.

But parelli has packaged this up and I think it is dangerous for inexperienced owners to use who has no understanding of horses behaviours! Someone playing the driving game I saw their horse rear up at them as the horse didn't understand what she wanted and she got frustrated instead of slowing down and breaking it down for the horse, why she doesn't actually understand horses to start with!

But in the right hands the ideas in it are fablous for the right horse and owner!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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