# Is there a good sized market for videographic services in the Equestrian world?



## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I need to get to the bottom of it. I will still be offering videographic services but how big is the target audience? You see all those videos online, on YouTube, of trainers who work with a horse(s) and it's all filmed into a story or highlight reel. CA, Warwick, etc, all the big names have video done. 

Now my question is, how big is this market for people in the industry (people in general, not just trainers) wanting video work done?


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

For me, I wouldn't pay someone to record me showing or riding. My husband is happy enough doing it for me. That or I have umpteen amount of friends who would be willing to film if my husband couldn't.

The only time I've seen someone pay for filming would be at a HUGE show. The World Championship Saddlebred Show is currently going on in Louisville, and I know people are paying to have their specific rides filmed. Aside from large shows like that, I don't see it as a very common, or lucrative, industry.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Among my 'group' zero interest! We all have cell phones or digital cameras, so no need to pay anyone


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm thinking the only place that might want to pay a pro would be either, as someone said, the BIG shows, like the big Arab show down in Prescott , Arizona every year (or similar large shows), or breeders who want to put together promotional videos of their stud, or of new crop of foals.

The ease of being able to video one's self really makes it hard for a professional to find folks willing to pay, even though the quality of film will be much better.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Among my 'group' zero interest! We all have cell phones or digital cameras, so no need to pay anyone


I think this is going to be the general consensus for most people.

Personally, I would never hire anyone to video me on my horse. I'd ask a horsey friend who'll do it for free.

You are really only going to see professional video done for professional trainers or those who have a professional breeding barn. 

Or at VERY large events. 
In the barrel racing world, 3-2-1 Action Video is a pretty "big name" for taking professional barrel racing video at very large races. Take a peek on YouTube.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with the above. 

Even at the big shows there are places to film from that give a great view which will be occupied by the shows photographer.

Taking a video from the gallery ot outside an arena never gives the best of a competitor's show even if you are high up to follow a specific rider the angle isn't right.


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## kewpalace (Jul 17, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> how big is this market for people in the industry (people in general, not just trainers) wanting video work done?


Agree with the others - generally, if I want a video done I'll ask someone at the time to do that. I would not hire someone to come and do that.

For cowhorse shows, they have to provide a videographer for NRCHA events with $5K+ in added money; otherwise having a videographer is discretionary. All entrants must pay a video fee where a videographer is provided. That does not provide you with any copy of the video taken. You have to pay extra for that. I have never purchased my video. They are pricey and I am picky about how I rode and have never felt the need (yet) to buy a video. 

I have asked friends to video a run at a show on their phone or camera. Of course the quality is not what the official videographer provides, but it is more of a learning/critiquing experience than to keep. 

At other types of shows, which are generally smaller and less "professional", people are there to have fun. The entry fees are generally pretty cheap and I cannot see that someone would pay a videographer (who would likely charge WAY more than the entry fee) to video their goes. 

So unless you have a very rich client who wants their own videographer or have an in to a bigger type show, I don't see that there would be the need for such a service.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> Among my 'group' zero interest! We all have cell phones or digital cameras, so no need to pay anyone


Which IMO & E goes for photos too. But the people that are willing to pay for a pro photo shoot would probably be the same ones willing to pay for a vid shoot. But 'pro' is the catch - many people can take pics & vids adequately - they have to be something special to be worthy of paying a pro for.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Thanks for the input everyone.

So there is no market for videos like this?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Nope, I watch that on YouTube for free


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Who else other than the trainer, would want to purchase it? As Golden Horse says, you can see it for free on YouTube.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks for the input everyone.
> 
> So there is no market for videos like this?


Hmmm, very nice  - it even had a horse in it too!


But seriously, that... easy on the eye... guy is a pro trainer, and the vid was nicely shot(my sis is a pro cinematographer, so I get lectured on what's good & bad whenever we watch anything together...), so it probably was a paid for, promotional vid. A lot of pro's I've seen tend to also use amateur filming tho. If that's the sort of thing you want to aim for, then I'd offer to make promo vids for a few well known trainers/breeders whatever, for nothing, and make it quite creative, use some 'arty' type angles & special effects, then when they're 'out there', they will be the biggest advertisements for your business.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> Who else other than the trainer, would want to purchase it? As Golden Horse says, you can see it for free on YouTube.


Mostly trainers, big breeders etc. But many 'big name' trainers have indeed made vids that sell well - Tom Dorrance, Parelli, Roberts, CA, etc, etc...


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Loosie, I agree with you over trainers selling the videos, however I have very little doubt that they hire a professional to come in and make a video but that a contract will say that the trainer owns the right to sell, maybe a bit of commission to the video taker as a royalty but they would get the bulk of the money.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

You know what I think? I think you should just do what you love. You are going to hear a lot of No's. No, this won't work. No, that won't work. How are you going to do that? How are you going to make that work? No one knows how when they first think of something that they want to do, but they figure it out. Bottom line, if you want to do it, then do it. 
If I listened to every no I heard, I wouldn't be doing a lot of things that I do now. And, there are a lot of things that I think I might be doing if I turned my ears off to all of the no's. This is a great time to be doing all kinds of things, so just do what you love. If you aren't making money doing what you love at the moment, figure out how to earn an income until doing what you love does that for you too. 

Two bicycle mechanics figured out how to fly when the whole world knew that people couldn't fly.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Nope, I watch that on YouTube for free


Well, somebody made that video and the trainer probably paid for it.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Foxhunter said:


> however I have very little doubt that they hire a professional to .


Agree with what you say, & absolutely most (should) use pros, for the sake of their business - that's the point of paying someone, except... have you seen some of the Parelli vids?? Far from pro. My sister would be in hysterics to see them!:lol:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Parnell? Who is he? :-| :twisted:

Haveing watched CA when he returned to Aus to break in a particular Brumby you could see all the gear he took with him and also several camera men. i know this was probably for TV but it shows the standard he works to.


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## george the mule (Dec 7, 2014)

Hoofpic, there is undoubtedly some market for this skill, but also probably very difficult to get started as a paid professional. You will want to find a real job to pay the bills until you accumulate enough of a following / reputation as an amateur that people begin to seek you out to do work for them.
I would suggest that you schmooze around at a local TV station to see if they might be interested in having you do some freelance work for them . . . once you get "published", you can start specializing in equestrian subjects, but until then stay open to any and all possibilities.

My $.02, Steve


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LoriF said:


> Well, somebody made that video and the trainer probably paid for it.


One person of course it happens...but Hoofpic is asking if there is a market, and blowing Unicorn Breath on him and saying yes there is, well that just isn't fair.

If you are going to have a business you need clients, are you going to hire him to come take a video? The amount that I guess he will want to charge would large, is the average owner going to pay that?

HP lives near Calgary, Spruce Meadows and all that, but to tap into the 'money market' there I'm guessing that you need connections, it's not what you know, but who you know"

As a business model, HP can offer what he likes, if he has all the gear and the skill already, then his only outlay is advertising himself, not a huge one, so he should advertise the service and see if anyone takes advantage of it.

As with everything, don't give up the day job.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Polo clubs are having more of their games on video. And their schools are using video for training. There is a big push to increase the number and skill of polo umpires and they are using videos of games and practices to improve their assessment skills.

Ropers want video to critic their own abilities, as do barrel racers. At least here.

A friend in Louisiana uses a pro videographer when he's taking a hard look at his young cutting horses.

It seems to depend on where you are.

Chukker TV uses video both on the ground and via drones. The McCarty young fellow who does that is the only one I know who only does horse events. Other do various types of events.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

All of my large dressage shows HAD a videographer, like I said before. They do however, need someone who knows the way around a dressage court, so the important parts of the test do not get skipped. Mainly, though, they are on the centerline. At A. 

I say had because I do not even know if they still do. I DO NOT want my husband to video my ride, lol.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Golden Horse said:


> One person of course it happens...but Hoofpic is asking if there is a market, and blowing Unicorn Breath on him and saying yes there is, well that just isn't fair.


Oh I don't think it's 'unicorn breath' at all - there definitely IS a market. Breaking into it is a bit of a different question tho & there is probably an element of luck, as well as hard work & skill, and definitely a large element of 'who you know'. My sister & her partner both did a 4 year course straight out of school, worked up the 'ladder' over the years, and now at around 40 she is about the most well respected female cinematographer in Au. It's a very male dom. career, which maybe has a little to do with her success. Her partner keeps pretty busy too. I think there are the odd rare successful cinematographers who haven't done a course, before gaining experience & being 'discovered' because they have something super special. 

Perhaps liken it to successful rock stars. There are a heap of 'pub bands' & some of them even scrape by, just on their music... If that's your dream & you're prepared to work at it seriously, then as LoriF said, I reckon it's worth striving for. But like muso's & actors, there are a LOT of 'washed up nobodies'. So I definitely agree with 'don't give up your day job' too - you've likely got a fair few years of hard work at least, before you start making anything substantial from it. Of course, you might be happy doing it for love or just 'pocket money' tho. 

I was laughed at & told when I was at school that 'horsey-smorsey jobs' weren't 'real jobs' and essentially 'unicorn breath'. So I got 'real jobs'... but I offered my services, to start with, for free, to ride & train, just as 'pocket money' because that was my love. I couldn't give up my 'day job' though until I got into hoof care... which is a passion to be sure, but a tad of a 'hard work' compromise, as far as 'dream jobs' go!:icon_rolleyes:


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

The only time I have and would ever consider paying for my riding to be recorded is when I rode in a 3 day clinic. I had the option to pay for my "lessons" on video. I paid the $100 to have my 3 lessons edited down to the good parts on dvd. Could my friend have recorded me? Sure, but by buying the video it will have better sound quality since the clinician had a mic hooked up and I'm sure she will do a better job editing it then I can and add in more commentary. So if you could get in with a clinician that needs a videographer...could work....but not sure if it would be worth the trouble.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I think limiting yourself to being an "equine videographer" is a bit too much of a niche market. If I was a trainer wanting a video taken of me working a horse, I wouldn't necessarily need someone who specialized in horses. I think anyone with an eye for what good angles look like would work. I don't know of anyone who ropes or barrel races who wants their runs recorded, either in practice or in competition. Don't know about dressage, as that isn't big around here. 

As a point of clarification, the big Arab show that Tinyliny is referencing is held at Westworld in Scottsdale, AZ, NOT in Prescott. In Prescott, we have the World's Oldest Rodeo (I live about eight miles north of Prescott...we don't do Arabs up here...it's all QHs and paints with a few TBs mixed in...my best friend has a quarab mare she needs to rehome and she can't even give her away).


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Yeah, sorry, I got the city wrong. my bad.

I've never been to that show, and never been to Arizona.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> Yeah, sorry, I got the city wrong. my bad.
> 
> I've never been to that show, and never been to Arizona.


Wasn't trying to call you out or anything like that. Just clarifying so people would know what you were talking about. :shrug:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

of course. I'm cool. 

my friend went to that show in Scottsdale. She has an arab. She loved it!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Sorry for the delay in responding, I've been working away like a mule getting my website up and running. It's been a lot of work but I got the foundation built and now just chawing away by adding stuff.

In regards to video, I am still going to offer the service but obviously 90-95% of my work will be photographic. 

I'm about 75% done my website, I just need to get portrait photos taken of me in the field shooting horses as well as some head shots. 

Because I am offering video, I have been considering having a 45sec clip (that loops) of me getting ready to shoot, and shooting. I wonder if this would be of any interest.

I need a splash page that sends out a bang because afterall your homepage is what dictates whether the visitor will view your site or not. I know just about all photographer's sites just have photos on their splash page but to me that is generic and I want something unique and different. Afterall, I am offering videographic services too right? So I should play that to my advantage.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Here is what my services will be for horse videographic material.

Trainer's demo's and promo material
Horse Shows
Explainer Videos
Montage Videos
Events & Competitions (this includes jumping competitions, I can film your kids from start to finish and catch everything in all of it's glory)


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

So have you quit riding now? If you have been so busy, poor Fly must be missing the attention.

What is an "explainer video?"

What is the difference between 'horse show' video and 'event and competition' video?

What is 'chawing away?' Sorry not a term I know, is it a local word?

Thing is, you can have all sorts of fancy pics and video clips, but you will also have to know the language of horse people, and be very careful about typos etc. If I am looking for services on line language is very important to me. There are many pretty websites, but if the substance isn't there I am moving on.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

> Because I am offering video, I have been considering having a 45sec clip (that loops) of me getting ready to shoot, and shooting. I wonder if this would be of any interest.


45 seconds is a long time. If it isn't your video then I would not care about it or watch it. On your website I want to see your work, your video clips, not someone else's video clips.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Do you intend to capture emails when visitors visit your website?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Nobody cares what the photographer looks like, so there's no reason for 'glamour' shots of you. One profile picture is fine.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> I'm about 75% done my website, I just need to get portrait photos taken of me in the field shooting horses as well as some head shots.
> 
> Because I am offering video, I have been considering having a 45sec clip (that loops) of me getting ready to shoot, and shooting. I wonder if this would be of any interest


My question to you for both of these statements is this: Why? Why do you feel the need to have portraits of yourself shooting and head shots? What purpose would it serve? To prove that you're actually the one taking the pics? Same for the video of you shooting or getting ready to shoot? What purpose would it serve? People don't care what you look like. They care about the quality of work you put out. That should speak for itself. One photo of yourself on a bio-type page would be more than enough.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

So when do we get to see the new website?!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

updownrider said:


> 45 seconds is a long time. If it isn't your video then I would not care about it or watch it. On your website I want to see your work, your video clips, not someone else's video clips.


Fair enough. What about short video bio's? Now that is something that I believe any website (no matter how big or how small and what the industry is), hugely benefits from.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

updownrider said:


> Do you intend to capture emails when visitors visit your website?


What do you mean? 

Like an FAQ? If so, then yes I have a fairly in detail FAQ and I just need to add a few more questions to it. It wil be questions that I know I will get asked a lot so by having it on my site, it should help reduce the number of times I have to answer the same questions.

Right now, my site is 85% done. I just need to tweak a few things, upload a few more pictures, and the big one is getting portraits done of me and photos of me shooting in the field (behind the scenes stuff). My "about me" page isn't going to be your typical one photo page about me, it's going to tell a lot about who I am visually through photos. I have a shot list that I put together so it will be a good variety.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Speed Racer said:


> Nobody cares what the photographer looks like, so there's no reason for 'glamour' shots of you. One profile picture is fine.


I don't know if I necessarily agree with this. I have looked at a ton of equine photographers websites and specifically their bio page, and many of them have a handful of photos of them up on the site. They go into what they are into in life, what their life outside of work is like, (if they are married, they will usually have a photo of them and their spouse and dog as well) and they show it through photos. 
Is it necessary to include all of this? No, but I would say that it just puts a different spin on things. They are trying to put that person to person relationship to work and not just have their website based on pure business.

Now one thing is for sure is that I will not be having 18 social media channels simply because I do not have the time for all of that. I linked my Facebook business page, my business email and I might sign up for Instagram as well because Instagram is huge for photographers.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

evilamc said:


> So when do we get to see the new website?!


When it's 100% complete, which should be fairly soon here. I've been putting in some pretty long days and pretty much have it complete, just need to do some minor tweaks here and there, more proofing and photos. 

I also might be tweaking my logo a bit to have it look better. I have been in touch with one of my girlfriends who is a branding specialist/graphic designer and she's going to provide me some feedback. Then once this is done, it's onto my business card, which I already have the look and design down, I just need to wait until my logo is finalized.

Website was the biggest monster to tackle, business cards is nothing. Then it will be getting insurance after that. I have a contact for that at a show I recently went to last weekend.

I'm still undecided if I want to put a blog on the site. I am not one who likes to write but you have to admit, blogs drive people to your site. 

One thing that I have noticed is that many equine photographers have blogs on their site. After they go do a shoot, they share the images and basically write a short blog on their thoughts, experience and how it all went. This gets followers but I don't know if I want to be doing this every time.

I'm much more of the type who just wants to share the images, send them to the customer and then move onto the next.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> My question to you for both of these statements is this: Why? Why do you feel the need to have portraits of yourself shooting and head shots? What purpose would it serve? To prove that you're actually the one taking the pics? Same for the video of you shooting or getting ready to shoot? What purpose would it serve? People don't care what you look like. They care about the quality of work you put out. That should speak for itself. One photo of yourself on a bio-type page would be more than enough.


I guess it would serve the same purpose as say trainers who post extra pics of them and their spouse, kids, pets, etc. To give their client base more insight on the life that they live and what's going on in their life outside of work. 

This is why I now shoot with my action cam attached to the hot shoe of my camera, to give me the ability to record POV videos if I choose to do so. 

POV videos is hugely popular for any type of photographers especially weddings. It's just a fun thing, to give the customers an idea of your ways about in shooting, etc. Some are curious, others are not.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

loosie said:


> Hmmm, very nice  - it even had a horse in it too!
> 
> 
> But seriously, that... easy on the eye... guy is a pro trainer, and the vid was nicely shot(my sis is a pro cinematographer, so I get lectured on what's good & bad whenever we watch anything together...), so it probably was a paid for, promotional vid. A lot of pro's I've seen tend to also use amateur filming tho. If that's the sort of thing you want to aim for, then I'd offer to make promo vids for a few well known trainers/breeders whatever, for nothing, and make it quite creative, use some 'arty' type angles & special effects, then when they're 'out there', they will be the biggest advertisements for your business.


Trainers is who I am mainly targeting for my video services. I do believe that all of them can benefit from bio videos. They are no different than Realtors and their bio videos and having worked with Realtors for a couple years, I know that a bio video for Realtors is a must have. 

Video is still the most powerful marketing tool today, much more powerful than photos, that is why websites that have video on their home page drive 66% more traffic than non video centric sites. It's just how the internet has evolved over the past five years.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

LoriF said:


> You know what I think? I think you should just do what you love. You are going to hear a lot of No's. No, this won't work. No, that won't work. How are you going to do that? How are you going to make that work? No one knows how when they first think of something that they want to do, but they figure it out. Bottom line, if you want to do it, then do it.
> If I listened to every no I heard, I wouldn't be doing a lot of things that I do now. And, there are a lot of things that I think I might be doing if I turned my ears off to all of the no's. This is a great time to be doing all kinds of things, so just do what you love. If you aren't making money doing what you love at the moment, figure out how to earn an income until doing what you love does that for you too.
> 
> Two bicycle mechanics figured out how to fly when the whole world knew that people couldn't fly.


Without looking too far ahead, if everything goes as planned, then my goal is to have my own booth rented out at the Mane Event next Spring in Red Deer. I looked into the fees and was completely shocked when I found out that it's only $500CDN for all 3 days. I thought it would be $500 a day, not all three.

One of my friends at the barn (who is probably more excited about it than I am), said she could help me out, help me work my booth, and because she is very good at building stuff (she's built her own patio, etc), she could even get materials to build my booth and know where to get some of my photos printed on canvas to be displayed. I am very thankful for this.

But other things have to fall into place in order for all of this to happen next Spring. I need to build up my portfolio as much as I can from now until then. And since the horse show season is ending here in Alberta at around the last week of October, that means that I need to make the most of it and get to as many shows, places, etc to shoot before Winter hits because obviously I will not be able to shoot nearly as much in the winter.

I put up an up online about a month ago offering Equine portraiture sessions for $100. I haven't had a single reply so I might have to re-think my strategy on this. I need people to shoot and I need to do this relatively quick before winter arrives. Barn friends ain't going to work (at least with two of them). It's not that they don't want to do it, but it's not possible with their horses not standing still, going to areas where I want to shoot, etc. I have a couple other friends who may be willing to do this for me.

On a good note, I am glad to hear that there will be a Fall class for photographing horses up in the Country side where I go trail riding because I am going to participate in it. I was actually planning on driving up there this Monday (since it's a holiday) to photograph more wildies but I would like to make at least two more trips back out there before winter arrives. I went four times last year but I've only been out there once so far this year.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is the photo galley for Bob Languish, a very well know Equine photographer

Bob Langrish Equestrian Photographer: Galleries


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

here is a USA based equine video service, already in operation

Equine Promotion


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Interesting, Smilie. Only one pic of Bob and none of the videographers. 

I like Bomb's website. Easy to look at and easy to use. He is one heck of a photographer, too!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Here is the photo galley for Bob Languish, a very well know Equine photographer
> 
> Bob Langrish Equestrian Photographer: Galleries


Yes he has a nice site.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

His site is clean but its not responsive. Now a days sites all need to be responsive, since so many people look at them on mobile and have different screen sizes. His site looks to be set up on about 800px wide, very small on larger screens, especially with 4k resolution screens getting popular. Something for you to keep in mind with yours, it needs to be responsive and work just as well on mobile.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> here is a USA based equine video service, already in operation
> 
> Equine Promotion


I am not a fan of websites that without warning play sound when you open them. Some people may not be in a place where sound is appropriate, and a choice to click on a tab within the site is a better option.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

> I put up an up online about a month ago offering Equine portraiture sessions for $100.


In my opinion, take the price out of the ad and see if you get a response. 

Then barter with or shoot for free the first person that responds to build up your portfolio. 

Rarely do clients appear out of thin air even though we wish that could happen. Starting a small business can be hard, you have to be your own sales person, marketing person, maintain your website, answer the phone, the emails, communicate with clients in a quick timeframe, then do the actual work - shoot the pictures, edit the pictures, upload the pictures, provide excellent customer service, and then do it over and over again for the next clients.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

evilamc said:


> His site is clean but its not responsive. Now a days sites all need to be responsive, since so many people look at them on mobile and have different screen sizes. His site looks to be set up on about 800px wide, very small on larger screens, especially with 4k resolution screens getting popular. Something for you to keep in mind with yours, it needs to be responsive and work just as well on mobile.


 Tue, Bob is a well established equine photographer
He has stock pictures a, as well as photographing various horse events. I met him, when he was at Spruce Meadows one year, and when I had two horses in the Appaloosa booth, for 'breeds of the world, which was run in conjunction with the show jumping Masters
He asked if he could take pictures of the two horses I had in the Appaloosa booth, telling me that they might be used in some book or calendar. He then gave me his business card. About a year later, I contacted him, and he gave me the #ISBN where those pictures had been used by Susan Mc Bain, in her Illustrated book on Breeds of the World
I had my gelding Einstein, there for some demos and the mare Susie was just there to represent the breed.
I have that book, and take pride that my horses were used.\
Bob came out some year or so later, and took pictures of some of my horses, running at liberty
Never checked to see if any of those pictures were ever used
Here are the ones form that book I mentioned


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## LauraReinhold (Aug 28, 2017)

beau159 said:


> You are really only going to see professional video done for professional trainers or those who have a professional breeding barn.


I think there may be a bigger market for it among professionals, also; however, I don't think this is a market to scoff at either. With so many low-quality recordings out there, professionals who want promotional material that really stands out are willing to pay for a good video to be made. especially now with Youtube and other platforms making it so easy to post promotional material at low-to-no cost, professionals might have extra funds to sink into a professionally-made video to show off their business. 

I think it's a matter of getting your foot in the door in the right community of professionals and then your reputation should take over if you do a good job.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

Hoofpic, you might think about expanding your video and photo service to include memorial videos and/or slideshows. When someone loses their horse they could send in their photos and video clips to you and you could compile them with music into a memorial video for the owner. I know quite a few people that would have loved to have something like this available.

Definitely not as glamorous as marketing videos and photoshoots but stuff like that can help keep the bills paid.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that's a great idea! most of the work I do for commissioned portraits of horses and pets is for memorial commissions.


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## tinaev (Dec 2, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> that's a great idea! most of the work I do for commissioned portraits of horses and pets is for memorial commissions.


I will keep that in mind, Tiny. I've been thinking about getting a painting or some type of commemorative artwork done of Nick.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I'm back. Sorry, I've been working away on my site the past few days. I hired a cheap coder for a couple hours to write code for me to disable my images from being saved, total cost $40. This is definitely something well out of my league to do. I'm very happy now!

Just need a couple more things and then I am finally ready to launch the site. Right now, only one person knows about the site and she's been impressed by it. I've been adding and tweaking the past few days and can't wait until I get feedback from others on it. I am open to all sorts of feedback in terms of the layout, U.I, etc.

I've put high importance on a very simple but clean site that makes visitors want to be on. No it's not a blog site, it's not a site that has lots and lots of scrolling, and it's not a site that will have flashy graphics and sounds.

I am shooting for Tuesday Sept 19th (or earlier) to have the site launched. It will be worth the wait trust me.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> I'm back. Sorry, I've been working away on my site the past few days. I hired a coder for a couple hours to write code for me to disable my images from being saved. This is definitely something well out of my league to do. I'm very happy now!
> 
> Just need a couple more things and then I am finally ready to launch the site. Right now, only one person knows about the site and she's been impressed by it.
> 
> Shooting for Tuesday Sept 19th (or earlier) to have the site launched. It will be worth the wait trust me.


Keep in mind, people can always just take a screen shot of pictures! Sadly the best way to protect them it to have your name all over them lol! A lot of the time too you can by pass the right click being disabled too by changing browser settings and sometimes even just holding down the control key.

Exciting that its almost up though!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

evilamc said:


> Keep in mind, people can always just take a screen shot of pictures! Sadly the best way to protect them it to have your name all over them lol! A lot of the time too you can by pass the right click being disabled too by changing browser settings and sometimes even just holding down the control key.
> 
> Exciting that its almost up though!


Yes but it's been proven that very few people will go through the effort and extra hassle of taking screenshots. That is why I have a watermark and signature stamp on every image. So the only way people can steal my images is by screen capping their screen, then removing both the watermark and signature stamp, and that is not just time consuming by difficult depending on where the signature and time stamps are placed and what the opacity is set at.

I see a lot of photographer's sites that have the "right click save as" and "drag to desktop" disabled, and have no watermark or stamp on any of their images. Yes it looks better without them, and I would love to do this on my website but I'm not taking chances. With that being said, there are a few places on the main page that don't have either the watermark or signature stamp but that is because the purpose of these images is to visually represent a product and it's not in the gallery. Even then I am not too concerned because these 3 images are cropped anyways so they are not the original composition.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

tinaev said:


> Hoofpic, you might think about expanding your video and photo service to include memorial videos and/or slideshows. When someone loses their horse they could send in their photos and video clips to you and you could compile them with music into a memorial video for the owner. I know quite a few people that would have loved to have something like this available.
> 
> Definitely not as glamorous as marketing videos and photoshoots but stuff like that can help keep the bills paid.


Thank you for the suggestion, that is a great one and I will add that to my list of video "services". I did also add "farm videos" and "clinic videos" and "stallion videos":grin:

I will say that there are a lot of services that I am offering that (from my hours and hours of research), very few other equine photographers offer, like: video, online store (all my photos excluding equine portraiture and shows/events) will be in my online store and can be bought. I have my Paypal account linked to the site as well as Square's credit card online system. I ordered a Square piece credit card scanner for when I need to do in person C.C transactions.

I also have separate pages for tack, other animals, nature/wildlife, and even put it in my FAQ that I am open to shooting portraiture for other animals.

I have also finalized my percentages of my proceeds to be going to two equine rescues down in the U.S. They are both very excited about this all and were not expecting it when I told them the news.

I also took out the concept of having both a "print" version of images and a "Social media" one, I completely took it out. Chances are no one will follow the rules anyways. So just one version that goes to customers, not two.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

updownrider said:


> In my opinion, take the price out of the ad and see if you get a response.
> 
> Then barter with or shoot for free the first person that responds to build up your portfolio.
> 
> Rarely do clients appear out of thin air even though we wish that could happen. Starting a small business can be hard, you have to be your own sales person, marketing person, maintain your website, answer the phone, the emails, communicate with clients in a quick timeframe, then do the actual work - shoot the pictures, edit the pictures, upload the pictures, provide excellent customer service, and then do it over and over again for the next clients.


Thanks, I think I will try this. So when they contact me, and ask how much, then tell them $100?

The small show that I recently shot just over a week ago, I offered the events coordinator girl to shoot her jumping (she doesn't have a horse of her own but she trains and jumps and rides peoples horses), so I offered to shoot her one shoot for free and just waiting to hear back from her. 

I also asked my trainer if I could take pictures of her big 17hh Friesen/Arab/Draft dressage horse. Because we all know that it's just the matter of time where I will have people saying that they won't hire me because I haven't shot any english horse's or events yet.

Yesterday I went back out to the country to shoot of the trail riding horses while my friend went trail riding. I got some good stuff and my friend also suggested sending some photos to the trail riding place (this place is well connected in the community here).

I'm also going to get in touch with Equine therapy riding clinics for kids. They're usually very connected and chances of me getting turned down to photograph are very slim IMO.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

evilamc said:


> So when do we get to see the new website?!


Don't forget, another thing is, when you do a screen cap of a photo off a site. The file and and resolution is WWWWAY less than the original.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks, I think I will try this. So when they contact me, and ask how much, then tell them $100?


Build up an acceptable professional portfolio. I have no idea if that will take you shooting for free one, two, three, ten different clients. Then charge according to market price in your area. Are your photos worth $100? I know what I would pay for them, but to clients in your area in your country...I can't say what they would pay.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Don't forget, another thing is, when you do a screen cap of a photo off a site. The file and and resolution is WWWWAY less than the original.


Yeah but people don't care about that when just posting to their social media!


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> I also asked my trainer if I could take pictures of her big 17hh Friesen/Arab/Draft dressage horse.


Don't forget that as you expand the services you offer, you need to up your horse knowledge. If I had a horse like the one you described, and you described the horse that way on your website, I would pass over as it would be clear to me you don't know my breed at all and likely wouldn't show my horse to the breed standard. 



Hoofpic said:


> I'm also going to get in touch with Equine therapy riding clinics for kids. They're usually very connected and chances of me getting turned down to photograph are very slim IMO.


This could go either way. If you're offering your services for free, there are certainly therapeutic riding programs that would love pro quality photos and videos for their website and marketing materials. When I was a board member for a therapeutic riding program, we lucked into a nationally acclaimed videographer (he works primarily with Ken Burns and National Geographic) who had boarded his horse with us for a winter offering us a free 5 minute promo video. He spent a full day with us shooting 5 participants & their families, 10 volunteers, and most of our staff.

However, when you're working with children and people with disabilities through a therapeutic program, they will have to have media consents in order before anyone can be photographed or recorded. Most centers get these permissions from most of their clients, so if they agree to work with you they'll have that in place, but you need to be quite tactful in how you capture and share images in this setting.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

evilamc said:


> Yeah but people don't care about that when just posting to their social media!


Yes but they will barely be able to do a standard print size off of it so that's what matters to me. 

Like the one girl (from the very first show I shot), who butchered 2 of my photos with severe crops and she put some stupid effect on one, ended up making a complete mess of them. What a disaster.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

updownrider said:


> Build up an acceptable professional portfolio. I have no idea if that will take you shooting for free one, two, three, ten different clients. Then charge according to market price in your area. Are your photos worth $100? I know what I would pay for them, but to clients in your area in your country...I can't say what they would pay.


Thanks. I have no problem shooting for free for the next few people.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes but they will barely be able to do a standard print size off of it so that's what matters to me.
> 
> Like the one girl (from the very first show I shot), who butchered 2 of my photos with severe crops and she put some stupid effect on one, ended up making a complete mess of them. What a disaster.


Lol! It happens...and if thats what made them happy and they liked it then to each their own!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

evilamc said:


> Lol! It happens...and if thats what made them happy and they liked it then to each their own!


Exactly, one persons poorly edited photo is someone elses masterpiece!


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> Don't forget, another thing is, when you do a screen cap of a photo off a site. The file and and resolution is WWWWAY less than the original.


Sorry, but HOW does this answer that question? Maybe I missed something...


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

If you really think people wouldn't screen shot your website to use photos regardless of if you had a watermark on them, then you do not have many horse show people on your Facebook.

After nearly every major show I see people using images that say "Stolen if not on xx website" or something like that. People DO NOT CARE. I literally just bought a CD of my pictures Monday night. I have all rights to them for $120. I had @evilamc edit them for me as they came straight from the camera, and the arena is a pain in the rear to shoot in (especially considering I didn't show until after 7:30 pm for one class, and closer to 9:30 pm for my second).

People will HAPPILY post an image like this for their Facebook, and friends will LIKE and LOVE it.










People don't care one bit. It's horrible, but it's sadly the truth.

Just to make sure above photo isn't removed, I HAVE purchased it, as evidenced here:










Also, curious. The person editing your images. Was it on here, or someone you sent the images to for their freebie ones?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

evilamc said:


> So when do we get to see the new website?!


 If its a business website then you won't get to see any links to it here as that would break the forum rules about no free business advertising or self promotion that involves posting links to a business website


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

You guys let me add the link in my signature since I linked back to the forum? I thought as long as you linked back to the forum we were allowed to have our websites posted?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

evilamc said:


> You guys let me add the link in my signature since I linked back to the forum? I thought as long as you linked back to the forum we were allowed to have our websites posted?


You are an "old-timer". When the forum belonged to Mike (the original Admin) the rules were different. The new ownership has been upgrading the forum in hopes to better our members experiences. They have been slowly implementing changes to some of our rules. The Vendor rules are definitely some of those modifications.


Please see the new rules:


http://www.horseforum.com/vendor-deals/vendor-rules-765097/


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

So I got rejected for shooting the event girl at Alberta Equestrian Federation here in AB of her riding and jumping and got rejected for a testimonial to put up on my site and Facebook business page. Instead they countered with asking me to become a paid member with them. *sigh*

Oh well, was worth a try. I was really hoping I could at least get a testimonial from her because having a testimonial from A.E.F would be huge!

I have found 2 people (possibly three) who are willing to give me a testimonial. I have my testimonial page all set up and done, ready to go.

I am 95% done. I essentially just need 2 things left to complete - more photos of me and my testimonials. I just got my online store and checkout system up today. Tested it and it's fully working. I am going to live and die from customer feedback so I am considering putting up a survey form somewhere. I did put a small "comments" field in the Print Release Form when you are about to check something out. 

A couple other things I will be doing with my clients is, I will be giving them reminder calls 3 days prior to our booking times - to verify that they are still good with the scheduled time and two also give them a chance to ask any questions before hand. 

Also, after stuff is bought from my online store and after I have sessions with clients, I want an automatic email to go out within 48 hours to thank them and so on. I think this would be highly beneficial. I could also plug in more feedback here. I essentially would like for every customer to write a testimonial for me, even if it's 3 words. My site and business and live off testimonials. I will be posting all of them. It will be all over the place - my site, facebook business page and eventually google.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

egrogan said:


> Don't forget that as you expand the services you offer, you need to up your horse knowledge. If I had a horse like the one you described, and you described the horse that way on your website, I would pass over as it would be clear to me you don't know my breed at all and likely wouldn't show my horse to the breed standard.


Yes that is true. I haven't had much of a life since last Thursday but after today, the big stuff needing to get done is now complete. The website is such a time consuming (but yet addictive because you keep wanting to tweak and tweak it to make it that much better), but I am so glad it's 95% done and out of the way.

I also just tweaked my logo this morning as well and am much happier with it now. It looks better. 

Now that I have the website out of the way, I can finally focus back on going out and shooting and getting my hands on my new TTL speed light that bought 2 weeks ago (but haven't even had time to really use it). 



> This could go either way. If you're offering your services for free, there are certainly therapeutic riding programs that would love pro quality photos and videos for their website and marketing materials. When I was a board member for a therapeutic riding program, we lucked into a nationally acclaimed videographer (he works primarily with Ken Burns and National Geographic) who had boarded his horse with us for a winter offering us a free 5 minute promo video. He spent a full day with us shooting 5 participants & their families, 10 volunteers, and most of our staff.
> 
> However, when you're working with children and people with disabilities through a therapeutic program, they will have to have media consents in order before anyone can be photographed or recorded. Most centers get these permissions from most of their clients, so if they agree to work with you they'll have that in place, but you need to be quite tactful in how you capture and share images in this setting.


I suppose it wouldn't hurt to at least contact a few and see where it takes me.

I did get in touch with Spruce Meadows today in regards to possibly shooting the Masters this weekend. Ya, no chance, you need a written invite (basically someone asking you to be there), as they are expecting 200 photographers to be attending this weekend. 

BUT, I was offered to come shoot their event in October (it's jumping, just not sure on the exact name of the event) as I haven't had too much time today to check out their site. I think this would be a very good idea to photograph this event. If I can get a testimonial from Spruce Meadows, I would be ecstatic!


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

> BUT, I was offered to come shoot their event in October (it's jumping, just not sure on the exact name of the event) as I haven't had too much time today to check out their site. I think this would be a very good idea to photograph this event. If I can get a testimonial from Spruce Meadows, I would be ecstatic!


Before the show at Spruce, please study what is a good jumping picture and what is a bad jumping picture. Timing is everything. Go to a successful equine photographer's website and study. I have linked James Parker The Book's website here previously. He is an extremely successful H/J photographer. If you can't find someone that jumps to practice your timing, go to youtube and look up a rider show jumping from the Olympics* or FEI World Cup* and take photos as they jump. 

*I say the Olympics or World Cup because those riders are good, and a good rider is probably best to practice on. The Olympics is outside and the World Cup is inside.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes but it's been proven that very few people will go through the effort and extra hassle of taking screenshots. That is why I have a watermark and signature stamp on every image. So the only way people can steal my images is by screen capping their screen, then removing both the watermark and signature stamp, and that is not just time consuming by difficult depending on where the signature and time stamps are placed and what the opacity is set at.
> 
> I see a lot of photographer's sites that have the "right click save as" and "drag to desktop" disabled, and have no watermark or stamp on any of their images. Yes it looks better without them, and I would love to do this on my website but I'm not taking chances. With that being said, there are a few places on the main page that don't have either the watermark or signature stamp but that is because the purpose of these images is to visually represent a product and it's not in the gallery. Even then I am not too concerned because these 3 images are cropped anyways so they are not the original composition.


That is isn't true and if you believe I think you aren't protecting yourself. People take screenshots all the time!!! It is so easy on the phone, and only slightly more difficult on a computer. I see them constantly. I take them for various reasons constantly.


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

updownrider said:


> to practice your timing, go to youtube and look up a rider show jumping from the Olympics* or FEI World Cup* and take photos as they jump.
> 
> *I say the Olympics or World Cup because those riders are good, and a good rider is probably best to practice on. The Olympics is outside and the World Cup is inside.



The only way to practice timing is to have real horses in the flesh jumping. I get what you're saying about the video and if you study videos of sufficient image quality and at the right angle, you can get an idea of a horse and riders position and form right up to a jump. ergo you can better learn to anticipate when they'll jump. But you won't really learn that combined with the act of taking the photo unless you're there in the flesh taking the photo for real along with all the other distractions and elements that go along with it.

In my experience enough practice and you can nail every or nearly every shot after a while; but it takes time and repetition to get that good. In general I can get pretty good on most shots with a little variation. Also different jump heights and horses make things easier and harder.


Professionals jumping high are a lot easier, esp when they are on bigger horses. All the motions are much more magnified and easier to read and the jumps themselves give you more time on the rise of a jump before the horse is up and over. Ponies and smaller horses jumping high are also fairly easy.
Harder are horses who are almost just hopping over jumps as you get very little body signal and very little time in the air. If they are almost just stepping over the jumps then might as well just stick around for the prize award shots as they really won't look anything going over.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

To be honest I think you are trying to set your client aim a little too high just yet. You have been a professional equine photographer for about a minute and have minimal experience. I would not be trying to obtain gigs at the venues you are talking about. You need to find some local shows and earn your stripes. I remember when one of our more notable local photographers was just starting out she would go to the smaller local shows and take photographs of the competitors and then bring each person a set of example proofs. You could buy the proofs for five dollars or order prints. Now this was twenty something years ago so times have changed. Now I would think you could do your shots and have the local show place a link to your site on their website so that clients can review and order. If the show isn't willing to do that then you could pass out business cards and tack a flyer to the board. 




You can not expect to go to a huge venue when you haven't even made a name for yourself at the local level.


That's my thought.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LOL, I guess I look at it the same as riding......my barn went to one of the minor shows at Spruce last year, it was still a HUGE deal for them. Only the horses and riders who were 'show proven' got to make the trip. You need to learn your craft before heading off to the big venues, and that means hours spent at local shows and barns taking pics and listening to what clients want to see.

Still interested in how Fly is doing, have you sold her?


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

The other bonus of sticking to local scale is you can make all your mistakes and not cripple your reputation too badly. Small shows or even just a few friends practising jumping on an evening training session. If you don't get every horse at the jump; if you get every jump but picked the background bad; if the light is utter rubbish etc.. you're not out of pocket and you're not left getting bad reviews. Those going to shows expect hte pro to get every single horse at each event they cover. 

Like you found with the indoor shooting; a limited experience base can also leave you very open to new situations causing problems. It might not be anything big, but it could mean that you miss shots or get the wrong angle or just generate a huge amount of editing work for yourself. All because you encountered a totally new situation. 

Heck the other month I was out in the rain that was so strong it kind of created its own blurring effect on the background. I had to learn how to work with that in editing and it wouldn't surprise me if there's a few magic shutter speeds that render rain better/easier to work with than others.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> Before the show at Spruce, please study what is a good jumping picture and what is a bad jumping picture. Timing is everything. Go to a successful equine photographer's website and study. I have linked James Parker The Book's website here previously. He is an extremely successful H/J photographer. If you can't find someone that jumps to practice your timing, go to youtube and look up a rider show jumping from the Olympics* or FEI World Cup* and take photos as they jump.
> 
> *I say the Olympics or World Cup because those riders are good, and a good rider is probably best to practice on. The Olympics is outside and the World Cup is inside.


Don't know what jumping event is being held at Spruce Meadows in OCt, but obviously nothing of the Caliber of The Masters
Spruce Meadows did become recognized as the premier show jumping venue, ahead of Acchen, a few years ago. The International Olympic show jumpers all show at Spruce Meadows, and I have seen quite a few of the Olympic caliber riders jump there
Thus, just viewing show jumping pictures of those riders, shot at events like the Masters, would give you both that high caliber rider, and the venue JMO


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

https://www.sprucemeadows.com/tournaments/view_tournament.jsp?id=29

You can view, LIve now


http://live.sprucemeadows.com/results.jsp?comp=342&codex=810


Not the big event, at the moment, as there are several levels,including the one where the Olympic champions ride


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Tazzie said:


> If you really think people wouldn't screen shot your website to use photos regardless of if you had a watermark on them, then you do not have many horse show people on your Facebook.
> 
> After nearly every major show I see people using images that say "Stolen if not on xx website" or something like that. People DO NOT CARE. I literally just bought a CD of my pictures Monday night. I have all rights to them for $120. I had @evilamc edit them for me as they came straight from the camera, and the arena is a pain in the rear to shoot in (especially considering I didn't show until after 7:30 pm for one class, and closer to 9:30 pm for my second).
> 
> ...


I'm not saying that people still won't do screen caps of my images but doing a screen cap and right click, save as gives you much different images. Screen capping gives you a much lower res and smaller file. Yes it will be good enough for people sharing on social media, but it will prohibit them from doing prints. That is essentially what I am trying to prevent, from people cropping my image, putting their signature on it then printing it. Right click, save as lets you do prints because it gets you a lot better file size. 

There is no 100% way to prevent theft but at least having a coder disable right click, save as and images drag to the desktop will really help. Taking a screen cap is more hassle and work than right click, save as. It will deter some people away. I know some people that don't like doing screen caps for image saving and I am one of them. It's just more steps than right click, save as. 

And even if you do a screen cap, you have to know how to remove watermarks from images, and I have two. When photographers place their watermarks on their images, they put them in places where it will be incredibly tough to remove without wrecking and completely disfiguring the original image. How difficult a watermark is to remove without wrecking the original image depends on three things - the watermark design itself, the opacity and the size.

The girl who altered 2 of my images was one of the riders at my first show, who I sent her, her free photo, and then she requested to see the rest. So I showed them to her and she liked one but she wanted it for free. So she decided to just right click, save as on my Flickr page, crop 2/3 of it off and put some ugly effect on it. Then she posted it on her Facebook page. BUT the image still had the watermark in it because obviously she doesn't know how to remove them.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

updownrider said:


> Before the show at Spruce, please study what is a good jumping picture and what is a bad jumping picture. Timing is everything. Go to a successful equine photographer's website and study. I have linked James Parker The Book's website here previously. He is an extremely successful H/J photographer. If you can't find someone that jumps to practice your timing, go to youtube and look up a rider show jumping from the Olympics* or FEI World Cup* and take photos as they jump.
> 
> *I say the Olympics or World Cup because those riders are good, and a good rider is probably best to practice on. The Olympics is outside and the World Cup is inside.


Thanks. I have studied quite a few jumping photographers and if I do end up going next month I will be well prepared. I don't know 100% for sure if it's even jumping. I went to the Spruce website and didn't see anything other than Oktober fest which is not horse related. So I am just waiting to hear back from the lady I spoke with there. 

Not to sound overly confident, but if I was to shoot a jumping show today, I am confident that I can capture it correctly.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dehda01 said:


> That is isn't true and if you believe I think you aren't protecting yourself. People take screenshots all the time!!! It is so easy on the phone, and only slightly more difficult on a computer. I see them constantly. I take them for various reasons constantly.


Yes. I stated my thoughts in my previous reply to Tazzie. Nothing will prevent theft but I strongly believe with the path that I've decided to take (disable right click save as and drag to desktop, plus the two watermark system) will go a long ways. If it doesn't then I can always beef it up, but it's better to have more layers of protection than just one or no protection.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes. I stated my thoughts in my previous reply to Tazzie. Nothing will prevent theft but I strongly believe with the path that I've decided to take (disable right click save as and drag to desktop, plus the two watermark system) will go a long ways. If it doesn't then I can always beef it up, but it's better to have more layers of protection than just one or no protection.


Just snagged this from your profile picture. Not a good quality pix for obvious reason.... but took me less than 15 secs on my phone. 

I am worried that you simply don't have enough horse experience to know what makes a good picture vs a bad picture of moving horses. I would not purchase this picture if it was of my horse. Short neck, tweaked sharply.


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-pictures/unflattering-bad-dangerous-hand-body-positions-770465/

Might be a good thread to look at. 
Not being a rider/involved with horses outside of taking photos its one area I know I'm very weak on. Being able to see correct riding posture and method is very hard; capturing it harder still and often as not even a rider riding perfectly on a perfect horse will have factions of a second where body motion and camera angle can give an unflattering pose (heck dressage is VERY hard to shoot as you've got to get that fraction of a second where leg motions and positions are ideal - way harder than showjumping)


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Overread said:


> Being able to see correct riding posture and method is very hard; capturing it harder still


If it wasn't hard then we would not pay for the shots we like....I do agree that studying in depth is needed, each discipline has their own "WOW" moments, and you need to know what the money shot is, and when to capture it for each. Rookie mistakes like thinking that barrel racers are going "the wrong way" around the barrel, can be avoided with some research.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> ... And even if you do a screen cap, *you have to know how to remove watermarks* from images, ...


I guess you don't have to know how.




> ... The girl who altered 2 of my images was one of the riders at my first show, who I sent her, her free photo, and then she requested to see the rest. So I showed them to her and she liked one but she wanted it for free. So she decided to just right click, save as on my Flickr page, crop 2/3 of it off and put some ugly effect on it. Then she posted it on her Facebook page. BUT the image still had the watermark in it because obviously she doesn't know how to remove them.


Since your watermark is still on the altered photos, could be that viewers will believe that it is entirely your work (ie not botched up by someone else). That would be something I would be afraid of. Are watermarks worth anything?


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Don't know what jumping event is being held at Spruce Meadows in OCt, but obviously nothing of the Caliber of The Masters
> Spruce Meadows did become recognized as the premier show jumping venue, ahead of Acchen, a few years ago. The International Olympic show jumpers all show at Spruce Meadows, and I have seen quite a few of the Olympic caliber riders jump there
> Thus, just viewing show jumping pictures of those riders, shot at events like the Masters, would give you *both* that high caliber rider, and the venue JMO


Are you telling me to view high caliber riders at Spruce? I have been involved with horse shows for 50 years. I am quite familiar with what Spruce Meadows is and its history. 

I was giving HP advice based on my knowledge of the show jumping world at a high level, and where he would see the best show jumping riding at indoor and outdoor venues. 

I also know what type of photos sell to jumper riders, owners, and sponsors, and what will not sell. As I said in a previous post, timing is everything. If a horse is already unfolding over the fence, even just a little, the photo is no good. You must understand what I just said to be able to taken seriously as a professional photographer at a show jumping event.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Not to sound overly confident, but if I was to shoot a jumping show today, I am confident that I can capture it correctly.


You DO sound overly confident, forsure you might fluke a few good shots, but if you have never done one, how can you have confidence that you can capture the pictures that the riders would want to see.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

updownrider said:


> Are you telling me to view high caliber riders at Spruce? I have been involved with horse shows for 50 years. I am quite familiar with what Spruce Meadows is and its history.
> 
> I was giving HP advice based on my knowledge of the show jumping world at a high level, and where he would see the best show jumping riding at indoor and outdoor venues.
> 
> I also know what type of photos sell to jumper riders, owners, and sponsors, and what will not sell. As I said in a previous post, timing is everything. If a horse is already unfolding over the fence, even just a little, the photo is no good. You must understand what I just said to be able to taken seriously as a professional photographer at a show jumping event.



All those Olympic show jumpers, ride at Spruce Meadows. From Ian Miller, to European and other Olympic Gold metalists- so yes, that venue allows the viewing of those International show jumpers rated as number 1 in the World, and on down, in the World
Spruce Meadows is pretty much in the Op's back yard, so why not view those International show jumpers there?
The live feed, also already shows the video technology there, being used presently. I mean, if the Olympic show jumpers ride at Spruce, is that not a good enough venue, esp since it is in the OP's province?
The OP will not break into a venue like Spruce Meadows, when International show jumping is involved, but studying the video and photo presentations from there, are as good as anywhere. My point, as I am not a show jumper, and could give better advise, as to how to video or take pictures at like some like the Canadian Supreme, held in Red Deer each year (working cowhorse and reiners)
My sole point was, that the oP did not need to go out of Alberta, in order to watch, see, some top world show jumping, by those that are rated at the top. They come to Spruce Meadows.
Since the OP might get a chance to work with some entry level jumpers, does it not make sense, to watch high caliber jumping at the same venue, and see what is presently being videoed by professionals?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

updownrider said:


> I also know what type of photos sell to jumper riders, owners, and sponsors, and what will not sell. As I said in a previous post, timing is everything.* If a horse is already unfolding over the fence, even just a little, the photo is no good*. You must understand what I just said to be able to taken seriously as a professional photographer at a show jumping event.


 @updownrider

Why is that? I have zero experience with jumping shows and photography. Is it that once the hrose has started to unfold, it doesn't look as good? in what way?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> @*updownrider*
> 
> Why is that? I have zero experience with jumping shows and photography. Is it that once the hrose has started to unfold, it doesn't look as good? in what way?


Exactly, you don't understand what you don't understand, and that is the whole point being made, I'm no jumper, haven't been for many years, and I was given the job of taking some shots at the last show we had....it really brought home how hard it is to get decent pics, to me #1 is half decent, #2 is too late...I'll leave @updownrider to explain better

















Much easier going around taking candid snaps of people


















Now of course I am no photographer, but it did bring it home how you have to know what you are looking for when taking action shots


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Because when the horse isn't unfolding, it is no longer at the highest point so you are not photographing the best spot, or the most dramatic snapping of the legs(which is what most people strive for - a clean round with a tidy horse). ONCe a horse starts to unfold, it looks like they "might have" gone over a jump hanging a leg... which is a major safety issue. You want a safe tidy horse and wouldn't would NEVER want your horse to be thought of as a leg hanger if he wasn't. particularly at that level.

... and maybe because eq can get slightly more hairy in the way down... at least in the group I hang with


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Now I did not bring my good camera out to play with my horse tonight and it was getting late. But the wrong moment in time can make a huge difference in how a horse looks. One picture makes him look like the quality (but very dirty and out of shape dressage horse he is...), the other picture makes him look like an ugly llama and the surroundings are not helping.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Dehda01 said:


> Because when the horse isn't unfolding, it is no longer at the highest point so you are not photographing the best spot, or the most dramatic snapping of the legs(which is what most people strive for - a clean round with a tidy horse). ONCe a horse starts to unfold, it looks like they "might have" gone over a jump hanging a leg... which is a major safety issue. You want a safe tidy horse and wouldn't would NEVER want your horse to be thought of as a leg hanger if he wasn't. particularly at that level.


Sorry, but that is not correct. A horse must unfold to complete a jump.

"Hanging a leg" is different than folding. It is very dangerous, and has nothing to do with what I said.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Folding/unfolding. There are other terms, but folding is a common one.

I'll give this a go, but I am not a writer. 

Takeoff - see how this mare is jumping up in an arc (bascule), and "folding" her front legs. 









Over the fence - the mare has her knees up, what is called "folded"









Landing- the mare has "unfolded" her legs, and completed her arc. I can't get this one to show up in this post. Click the link.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/rafarian/2668771639/in/photostream/


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

updownrider said:


> Sorry, but that is not correct. A horse must unfold to complete a jump.
> 
> "Hanging a leg" is different than folding. It is very dangerous, and has nothing to do with what I said.


YEs, a horse must unfold in order to land. But as they do so they no longer have the square tight legs that is ideal for the top point picture that everyone wants. Because they land in a split for a canter lead. 

But a horse who jumps with a less than square set of legs can start to look similar as a great horse they start to come down.

You can see in our second picture the near knee has already stared to drop. Ideally you want the picture 1/2 sec/ breadth before that, so she is at the highest point, with level knees - at least for the typical pix...


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> @updownrider
> 
> Why is that? I have zero experience with jumping shows and photography. Is it that once the hrose has started to unfold, it doesn't look as good? in what way?


Why do riders, owners, sponsors not want a photo of their horse with their legs unfolding? Because seeing a horse at the highest point of their arc is what most jumping people want to see pictures of their jumping horses doing. This is a picture of a horse at the highest point of his arc, looking his best. 

This is a perfectly timed photo.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Since this topic by Hoofpic, was videographic, I merely suggested watching some of the live feed from Spruce Meadows, to see what the competition out there is, living in Alberta
I confess to not being up on anything technical, far as jumping, as I don't jump, and have no intention of advising when to catch that moment in time, although I have seen enough pictures, where when legs are folded, and horse is arching over the jumps, sells, gets printed in posters, or what have you.
But this is the video graphic post, so kinda makes sense as to what is being video graphed at a local venue, and with International riders, might be a good resource, far as sizing up that market
Why not go down to Spruce Meadows this week, and actually talk to some of those vidoegraphers?Their assessment of the market,would be going to the horses mouth, so to speak!


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

My limited understanding of video is that most people want video for analysis later rather than as an artistic shot of the moment. The problem there is many are quite happy with holding their phone/tablet up so you've got to get clear angles in your video and ideally show the run up and jump as clear as possible as many times as possible. You might find that you'd get more sales if:

1) You can position where you see more jumps but where the viewer can't - so you're offering more.
2) You can use more than one camera, on tripod, so that you can video more run-ups and then splice them together into a package deal. Again offering more than they can get themselves.



As for the artistic side of jumping; sometimes within art forms there are conventions and themes that define what is and what is not popular. In general a horse and rider look "best" at every moment from when the hind legs leave the ground to when the horse is at the last moment of its rising jump. That conveys the most power and motion of horse and rider.

When the hind legs are still on the ground most horses look like they've a post more suited to leaning on a bar than leaping. There might be some angles and lighting on some horse bodies that might show off the muscular action more so, but in general it looks clunky and lacking in motion (some motion blur "might" work but might just add to the messy feeling)

Once the horse is travelling over the jump there's oft a sense of it just hovering; you've lost the momentum of the shot. Again you lose that sense of the horse moving and instead its now just hovering. 

On the down its rather similar to the up; whilst you've got that sense of direction the power and leap and impressiveness of the jump are mostly over. The only times I've seen downs work is when you've got horse and rider leaping into water, where the water is providing the dramatic moment as its thrown up into the air. That said a down also comes with the most likely moments where horse and rider are going to show "improper posture/riding". Those split second moments where everything's a jumble are far more likely at this stage than at the others so if you're really going for a technical (riding) good shot its more tricky and timing is critical (though I'd say an element of luck also comes into play). 


This is why high jumps oft give the best results, because you've got more of that rising time and also because the horse puts more power and effort into the jump. It's a more dramatic moment. At the extreme other end if the horse is just hopping over there's almost no power or moment to capture.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

The show that is at Spruce Meadows NOW makes an EXCELLENT opportunity to whip up some flyers, and post on every bulletin board, stall front and vendor table that is there!!! If ever you were going to touch prospective customers, it is THERE and NOW!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There are also booths at Spruce Meadows, where equine artists and photographers have their work displayed. See as to what you are up against.
Far as watching how, that video live feed from Spruce is being done, seeing the equipment required= again, great opotunity
While the jumping events already are covered,by professionals, there are always various demos going on-perhaps you might pick up a customer there


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Okay I think I am just about done the website. Obviously I will be adding more content as time goes on. I would like to shoot some videos out in the country side. As far as tweaking it, I think I am good for now. I will do tweaks after receiving feedback from visitors.

I do have to add more photos of me and horses in it together (to make that connection between me and horses) and of me working my camera shooting horses. The only thing is, I would want to shoot these photos with my good pro lenses and I need a 2nd body to shoot it off a tripod. So I will either have to rent a body for a day from the Camera store here or hire a pro to take photos of me.

I was originally going to get a pro to come with me out to the countryside (where I shot those beautiful sunset shots last Fall) and have them do 12 photos, but when I went out there last Monday with my friend, we drove around in her Jeep for 4hours to find Wildies and we only found 3 (which was on our way back home lol). So running into the wildies is a hit or miss. IMO, there is no point driving all the way out there and paying her, her day rate if we don't have horses in the photos. I need a guaranteed place that will have horses. 

If I do the rest of my photos myself, it would probably cost me no more than $40 to rent a second body for a day. That is compared to hiring this pro girl for $220 (her day rate), which is stinkin cheap compared to the rest of the pros. That includes 8hours of her time (5 hours travel round trip in my car), her taking 200 shots, going through them and editing 12 of them for me. Most pros here would give you 2 hours of their time for $200.

I did take 4 self portraits of me so I think if I can get 4 or 5 good photos of me and horses in it, that should be sufficient.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> The show that is at Spruce Meadows NOW makes an EXCELLENT opportunity to whip up some flyers, and post on every bulletin board, stall front and vendor table that is there!!! If ever you were going to touch prospective customers, it is THERE and NOW!


Yes I agree but from what I was told when I contacted Spruce this past week was that you have to be requested by someone in the industry to be there in order to photograph. There are also 200 photographers there this weekend so that's a bit much for my liking. 

Like I said, I know one girl on my Facebook who organizes and knows top pros who shoot at these top shows in Alberta and when I talked to her a month ago she said that she would love to get me in touch with some of her top pros to go and tag along with them to these top shows to watch and learn from, but it hasn't happened.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I agree but from what I was told when I contacted Spruce this past week was that you have to be requested by someone in the industry to be there in order to photograph. There are also 200 photographers there this weekend so that's a bit much for my liking.
> 
> Like I said, I know one girl on my Facebook who organizes and knows top pros who shoot at these top shows in Alberta and when I talked to her a month ago she said that she would love to get me in touch with some of her top pros to go and tag along with them to these top shows to watch and learn from, but it hasn't happened.


You do not need an invitation to go PROSPECT, TALK to people, and put up flyers..... Your MAIN source of income is NOT going to be a show organizer paying you. It is going to be the RELATIONSHIPS that you build with exhibitors who buy photos, need sale photos later, etc.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Okay I think I am just about done the website. Obviously I will be adding more content as time goes on. I would like to shoot some videos out in the country side. As far as tweaking it, I think I am good for now. I will do tweaks after receiving feedback from visitors.
> 
> I do have to add more photos of me and horses in it together (to make that connection between me and horses) and of me working my camera shooting horses. The only thing is, I would want to shoot these photos with my good pro lenses and I need a 2nd body to shoot it off a tripod. So I will either have to rent a body for a day from the Camera store here or hire a pro to take photos of me.
> 
> ...


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

@Smilie, love that second pic!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> You do not need an invitation to go PROSPECT, TALK to people, and put up flyers..... Your MAIN source of income is NOT going to be a show organizer paying you. It is going to be the RELATIONSHIPS that you build with exhibitors who buy photos, need sale photos later, etc.


That's true. Perhaps I should have gone to Spruce this weekend. I didn't know about the Masters until I was talking with the BO a few weeks back. I am familiar with the event and know how huge it is in an international scale. I have to be there for next years.

Don't forget I don't have my business cards made up yet. That is the very next thing on my "to do list" and it shouldn't take me very long since I already have the layout all sketched out. I will also eventually need a brochure or post card advertisement down the road (especially if I plan on renting my own booth at the Mane Event next April.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Well, you only need to ride west of Sundre, up the Williams, Up Bull hill, Bear creek, and I can assure you, that you will run into Wildies!
> I have never ridden in those locations without seeing them, sometimes more then I would like to, riding a mare!


Well I was up there last weekend with a friend and we were driving around in her Jeep for 4 hours until we finally ran into three wildies on the way back home. We spotted lots of poop but no wildies until the very end. She's shown me exactly where in the countryside to go for the wildies, but it's still a hit or miss. 

I won't be riding up there, I just want to have my photos taken up there. This is the same spot where I took those sunset pictures last Fall. 



> I have many more pictures of Wildies, not scanned in. Not any attempt at artistic photos, as I am on a horse, when taking these, bit would not be too hard to do !


Nice pics, they look great to me.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> I know, I am not a good writer, it's my biggest weakness. I know a girl who is one of the best writers that I've ever met and she could tweak my site if I wanted, but I hate to rely on others to do it. .


It would be a worthwhile investment, you only have one chance to make a good impression, and the wording does not reflect you in the best light.




> It took some thinking to come down to "investment" but the main reason why I picked it was because I want people to see my services as a long term, on-going thing, not a one time thing. I could put "cost" instead but it's generic. .


It IS a cost, your choice of course, but that is something that would make me pass.





> Yes but there will be others who will want to see it. I've seen trainers who post a lot of pictures of them (doing stuff) on their pages and I actually quite like looking at them. It tells a story about who they are..


Who? take a poll, get some feedback, especially spending money and making a big deal of it, setting something up. Wit trainers it is different, I want to see how the work with a horse, when training the personality is important, taking photos all they want is someone with the skill to so it.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In the case of presenting yourself professionally, definitely rely on someone else to write for you, especially if you know that writing isn't your strong suit. I am a writer and I found myself skipping most of what your wrote because it was difficult to wade through and didn't flow well.

There is a difference between a trainer posting pics of themselves doing what they are advertising and a photographer posting pics of themselves. If I am looking for a photographer, I want to see THEIR skills (I.e.-their ), NOT someone else's. Posting pics of yourself is showcasing someone else's talent, not yours.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Something I meant to mention in my previous post...

The quoting yourself thing is EXTREMELY odd and kind of off-putting. I showed your site to my husband to get an unbiased opinion and his first comment was that you quoting yourself like that makes you come across as VERY stuck on yourself. 

He also agreed that the use of the word "investment" was weird and made you seem like you were trying to come across as smarter than you actually are and that you're trying too hard.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

One more thing Golden, people can't copy text from my site but they can do screenshots. I will be adding an option to attach files to my contact pages.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> It would be a worthwhile investment, you only have one chance to make a good impression, and the wording does not reflect you in the best light.


I think I could be wrong but I believe it's just my "shows and events" page that needs to be re-written. Agree?



> It IS a cost, your choice of course, but that is something that would make me pass.


But don't you think cost is too generic?



> Who? take a poll, get some feedback, especially spending money and making a big deal of it, setting something up. Wit trainers it is different, I want to see how the work with a horse, when training the personality is important, taking photos all they want is someone with the skill to so it.


Well this will be something that will be decided down the road. I know that I have to get professional photos done regardless, so might as well get it done now.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hoofpic said:


> Don't forget, another thing is, when you do a screen cap of a photo off a site. The file and and resolution is WWWWAY less than the original.


I'd actually allow the saves of the lower quality 'example' pics you will have on your site. When people save it it's obviously because they're impressed by it, so consider it as advertising. I have often saved egs of artwork on people's sites so I can remember to go back to it when I'm in a position to buy, because I loved the work.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> In the case of presenting yourself professionally, definitely rely on someone else to write for you, especially if you know that writing isn't your strong suit. I am a writer and I found myself skipping most of what your wrote because it was difficult to wade through and didn't flow well.


I am going to do this this upcoming week. Hopefully can have all the written material finalized by end of this week. I still haven't posted this link on my Facebook page yet and my goal still stands of publicly posting my link on my Facebook page a week from today (I have people waiting in anticipation).

Like I said, I know a girl who is incredible at writing, I can get her on the job if I wanted. I also have connections to other writers as well.



> There is a difference between a trainer posting pics of themselves doing what they are advertising and a photographer posting pics of themselves. If I am looking for a photographer, I want to see THEIR skills (I.e.-their ), *NOT someone else's. Posting pics of yourself is showcasing someone else's talent, not yours.*


You have a good point, thanks. This exact thought did in fact cross my mind this past week. Now, what if all the pictures of me I took myself? Would that be more impressive? Because all 5 of those photos of me currently up on my site I took myself. 

I'll be honest, I have been considering cancelling my appointment with the photographer for next weekend and instead go rent another DSLR body and try to take the photos that I want to take, myself. It's not easy though and definitely not nearly as easy as people think it is. Unless you are doing shots in a small location or on the couch, there is a lot of trial and error and it's time consuming. In fact there are a lot of shots that I couldn't get unless I had someone else taking the picture. Working with shallow depth of field in a larger field running my camera off my tripod and using a remote shutter is going to be extremely difficult.

I want photos of me and horses in it. In other words of me with my camera clearly showing that I am shooting horses. I also want photos of me having that connection with horses. And also photos of me using my camera and handling it. 

The latter I can definitely do myself firing off my tripod. I will just need to rent another DSLR body for a day (which is not much).


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> I think I could be wrong but I believe it's just my "shows and events" page that needs to be re-written. Agree?


Disagree, just read the home page and I would start there, descriptions like "energy rushing thrill" apart from making no sense, has no place in describing a photo shoot....





> But don't you think cost is too generic?


Nope, better than trying to be too clever, charges, price list, rates, fees, all are more accurate than investment...I paid a lot of money for my tattoo, I would not call it an investment, I bought some art.






> Well this will be something that will be decided down the road. I know that I have to get professional photos done regardless, so might as well get it done now.


LOL, whatever, your site, but for someone who was complaining about the cost of taking a course to further his ability, that would seem to be a better investment than having someone else take pictures of you. There are perfectly good pics on the sire already, anything else, I personally would call vanity, and I would find it a turn off....but yeah, your call.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

You guys have talked me out of getting someone to take the rest of my photos for me. I will do it (at least attempt to and see what I can put out) myself. I believe that it would be that much more impressive if the viewer finds out that I took all my photos myself (especially seeing my profession and target market). I am going to do this tomorrow.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Drafty - also another member on here gave me some great advice and tips and mentioned to not use personal quotes from me (splash page is fine because that's essentially my elevator sales pitch), but instead of user quotes from people who I look up to. So I put in quotes from well known horseman instead.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Disagree, just read the home page and I would start there, descriptions like "energy rushing thrill" apart from making no sense, has no place in describing a photo shoot....


Thanks good point. I fixed it. 



> Nope, better than trying to be too clever, charges, price list, rates, fees, all are more accurate than investment...I paid a lot of money for my tattoo, I would not call it an investment, I bought some art.


Okay you convinced me, I will change it to "costs". Thanks.



> LOL, whatever, your site, but for someone who was complaining about the cost of taking a course to further his ability, that would seem to be a better investment than having someone else take pictures of you. There are perfectly good pics on the sire already, anything else, I personally would call vanity, and I would find it a turn off....but yeah, your call.


Okay, well let's wait until I get my final images up, then we can judge again.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic, I will say that I liked the grouping of four pics at the top of your "About me" page. Those were good pics. Include a pic of you on Fly. Get dressed up in your best clean gear, set up your tripod, and have your trainer or a friend snap a few pics of you on her, either standing still or while riding (if you think they're up for it...do it at a walk, since that is easier to catch clearly than other gaits). Or include a few pics of you interacting with Fly in some way. They don't have to be artsy, just nice and clear. I would much rather see pics of an equine photographer with their own horse than with someone else's. Heck, I had a website for the horsehair bracelets I've made (was going to make a side business of it, but life happened) and on my "About me" page I had pics of me on my horse...and I LOATHE having my picture taken.

Another thing I noticed. I know you don't want to sound like you're wet behind the ears (even though you are), but talking yourself up as much as you are might become an issue. Your site reads as though you've been doing this for ages and have loads of experience under your belt with dozens of satisfied customers...rather than having just started out and only having one show under your belt. That can cause a problem for you because if someone hires you based on it sounding like you're extremely experienced, then finds out you're not, they're gonna be ticked, especially at the prices you're trying to charge. Maybe when you go over the writing on the entire website with your writer friend, have her help you with the wording so it doesn't get you in potential hot water. Right now, if I hired you based off the way your website makes you seem experienced, then after I had paid a rather hefty amount of money for someone I thought was very experienced and found out you have only shot one show...I would be extremely unhappy and demanding at least a partial refund. I don't want to pay professional prices for an amateur (and only having one fun show under your belt makes you an amateur, whether you like the term or not). If no refund was forthcoming for being mislead, I might even seek legal means for restitution, as it could be considered false advertising. 

Just my thoughts. Take them as you may.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Good point @DraftyAiresMum! That is a difficult tightrope to walk I guess, that is the trouble with setting up from scratch, you don't want to say you've only been doing it for 5 minutes, because then you may struggle to get clients, especially at full commercial rate. 

It does read as though you have years of experience.....I can see how that would be an issue when someone tries to sue you because they don't like their pics....and you can be sure you will have unhappy customers! 

I don't have an answer, *shrugs* maybe it is a non issue, but I still think that words are just as important as pics, for all sorts of reasons....I would invest in getting them right.


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

It's unlikely someone will sue over equine photos shot at events, portrait event or another pre-paid/personal they might argue for their money back. The only time I'd expect lawyers would be if you turn up on site and did something dangerous - eg unfolding a pop-up reflector inches from the horses face. 

Of course many people will scream suing as a first step but it doesn't mean they'd go through with it and normally one would expect discount/full refund/etc.... would resolve the matter.


It might be worth not bigging up your history much when you've not got much history to talk about; focus instead of presenting your photography and rely on that. In the end your background doesn't have to be much if anything, you can be straight to business and just talk about rates, services and show your photography off. That way you're not telling any lies; not stretching the truth and focusing on what people want - your photography and price. Your background and history are of lesser importance.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Ok, agree the wording could be better, but as this is a photographer's site advertising your services, I very quickly skimmed that - that's not important to me, so long as the relevant info is clear. Your photography egs are the most important thing to display. Imagining myself as a prospective customer, here are my honest thoughts... please take as 'constructive criticism'... Hehe! I just noticed the 'investments' has been changed to 'costs' while I'm writing!

I'd have a bigger range of different pics on your opening page & make sure they're the best of the best - leave out horses with their heads behind trees, horses with their ...doodles out, etc, etc. I want to quickly & easily see your best work, what you're capable of. I don't want to waste time wading thru a lot of pages & am put off by the ornary stuff. So... first & foremost only the best of the best. 

I'd remove the ornary ones, like horses eating hay, av. head shots, mare flashing her vulva at the camera, horse with it's head in a bucket... Not sure about the woman in odd positions on a bit of fence... those ones remind me of a hilarious thing I saw recently with a 'normal' looking woman doing poses & dressing up to copy posed pics of famous people. If I were looking to pay someone for professional shots, seeing all those pics & angles would definitely put me off. And a close up of some guy's crotch(not even tight jeans at that!) while he's holding a rope doesn't thrill me. Tho maybe that's just me...

I'd also ensure the thumbnail pics under each heading showed the whole photo, not just part of them. So you could see it at a glance, only have to click on each individual pic if you wanted to see more detail. 

In the 'wild horses' section I think you have some in there by mistake? If not, if they're captured wild horses, I'd still remove them. That is, the 'wild' horses who are behind barbed wire & in a barn paddock. Would make me wonder if any of those pics are of actual wild horses. Tack & barns & arenas... A pic of messy ropes, a pic of a wall with a (garage?)door in it & a pic of some post & rail fencing & grass don't impress. I do like the one of the gate/yards in the sunset tho.

On the 'meet steven' page I am not interested to read a lot of trivia about how you grew up, but I guess, if people are, that's what this page is for. I don't know why you've got all those pics of... walls & such under your writing tho?

Costs... $150 as a booking fee seems excessive for the portraits IMO, especially when there is a 'no exceptions' no return in case of emergency, only with 72hrs notice. It's got to be enough to deter people cancelling without good reason, but to potentially lose the whole $150 because I was sick, the show was cancelled, whatever, would put me off. 

The show photography, $75/hr or $275 for a *MAX* of 4 hrs - so I MIGHT save $25 by booking half day rather than hourly for 4 hrs? And the full day rate also says max of 4 hrs - gather that's a mistake. So then on top of the time rate, you have to pay for a photo package? Might be better if you had your packages all inclusive & 'starting from' 25 prints... Not knowing how the show/pics are going to turn out, even 25 pics might be excessive - I'd maybe want a lesser pack option, and see & choose the pics I wanted you to print for me & whether I wanted more. I'd also offer different sizes - I gather these are just for standard size prints & some of them would look great as wall posters... Perhaps you can look at what they offer for school photography as an idea of the 'packages'.

The videography page - that one vid doesn't excite me. I'd want to see at least a couple of good egs of your finished vids. But the costs... seems quite reasonable, except there are no eg. rates for products. Eg. If I want you to spend 2 hrs filming & want a 60 second ad out of it, what's that likely to cost me? Obviously the editing is subjective time-wise, but I want an idea.


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## GMA100 (Apr 8, 2016)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic, I will say that I liked the grouping of four pics at the top of your "About me" page. Those were good pics. Include a pic of you on Fly. Get dressed up in your best clean gear, set up your tripod, and have your trainer or a friend snap a few pics of you on her, either standing still or while riding (if you think they're up for it...do it at a walk, since that is easier to catch clearly than other gaits). Or include a few pics of you interacting with Fly in some way. They don't have to be artsy, just nice and clear. I would much rather see pics of an equine photographer with their own horse than with someone else's. Heck, I had a website for the horsehair bracelets I've made (was going to make a side business of it, but life happened) and on my "About me" page I had pics of me on my horse...and I LOATHE having my picture taken.
> 
> *Another thing I noticed. I know you don't want to sound like you're wet behind the ears (even though you are), but talking yourself up as much as you are might become an issue. Your site reads as though you've been doing this for ages and have loads of experience under your belt with dozens of satisfied customers...rather than having just started out and only having one show under your belt. That can cause a problem for you because if someone hires you based on it sounding like you're extremely experienced, then finds out you're not, they're gonna be ticked, especially at the prices you're trying to charge. Maybe when you go over the writing on the entire website with your writer friend, have her help you with the wording so it doesn't get you in potential hot water. Right now, if I hired you based off the way your website makes you seem experienced, then after I had paid a rather hefty amount of money for someone I thought was very experienced and found out you have only shot one show...I would be extremely unhappy and demanding at least a partial refund. I don't want to pay professional prices for an amateur (and only having one fun show under your belt makes you an amateur, whether you like the term or not). If no refund was forthcoming for being mislead, I might even seek legal means for restitution, as it could be considered false advertising. *
> 
> Just my thoughts. Take them as you may.


This^^ I was wanting to tell you this, but I have a hard time finding the words to explain stuff like this in detail. When I was looking at your website, it looked as though you had YEARS of experience. 

*"Do you feel awkward posing in a stuffy studio with more equipment than an operating room? Many of my clients feel the same way, so I've done away with all that......" *

This above sentence tells me you have had a lot of clients. In reality, how many clients have you really had? How many pictures have you taken in a studio? Not saying you should remove that sentence, but I would change it a bit. More like "Do you feel awkward posing in a stuffy studio? Many people do......." And finish with what you're going to say.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I just don't understand the studio quote.....we ARE talking about equine photography, RIGHT? A studio with horses in it is GOING to be stuffy, I promise. Do you have ANY studio portrait experience?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Great news, my contact who is an amazing writer has accepted to take on my job. I sent her all the text that I need revised, tweaked and re-written to her.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Hoofpic, I will say that I liked the grouping of four pics at the top of your "About me" page. Those were good pics.


Thanks, I give full props to Evilmc for convincing me to shrink down the size on most of my images. As a result, I completely re-designed the layout of my "Meet Steven" page. Nobody wants to see photos of me in a slideshow format (how it is on the homepage). There is also a greater chance that nobody is going to sit through the filtering of all my photos of myself (my work, chances are they will because that's the prized possession and ultimately what they want to see). So that's why smaller thumbnails where the viewer can see all my images laid out at once works much better. If they want to see more, they click on the images. Simple.



> Include a pic of you on Fly. Get dressed up in your best clean gear, set up your tripod, and have your trainer or a friend snap a few pics of you on her, either standing still or while riding (if you think they're up for it...do it at a walk, since that is easier to catch clearly than other gaits). Or include a few pics of you interacting with Fly in some way. They don't have to be artsy, just nice and clear. I would much rather see pics of an equine photographer with their own horse than with someone else's. Heck, I had a website for the horsehair bracelets I've made (was going to make a side business of it, but life happened) and on my "About me" page I had pics of me on my horse...and I LOATHE having my picture taken.


I was thinking about this same thing yesterday when riding her. Do I or do I not get a photo with me her in some way or form? I was leaning more towards yes but I will probably do it myself. Why? Because I have an exact shot in mind and it shouldn't be too difficult to shoot it off my tripod.



> Another thing I noticed. I know you don't want to sound like you're wet behind the ears (even though you are), but talking yourself up as much as you are might become an issue. Your site reads as though you've been doing this for ages and have loads of experience under your belt with dozens of satisfied customers...rather than having just started out and only having one show under your belt. That can cause a problem for you because if someone hires you based on it sounding like you're extremely experienced, then finds out you're not, they're gonna be ticked, especially at the prices you're trying to charge. Maybe when you go over the writing on the entire website with your writer friend, have her help you with the wording so it doesn't get you in potential hot water. Right now, if I hired you based off the way your website makes you seem experienced, then after I had paid a rather hefty amount of money for someone I thought was very experienced and found out you have only shot one show...I would be extremely unhappy and demanding at least a partial refund. I don't want to pay professional prices for an amateur (and only having one fun show under your belt makes you an amateur, whether you like the term or not). If no refund was forthcoming for being mislead, I might even seek legal means for restitution, as it could be considered false advertising.
> 
> Just my thoughts. Take them as you may.


Good point, thanks. I want to sound confident in myself and in my ability but I also don't want to come across as being arrogant. In summary, I know I can get the job done, there is no doubt about it and I know I can deliver the end results. For instance, I have yet to shoot a jumping show but let me shoot a jumping show today and I am confident I know how to walk away with great and correct material. That's basically what I want the audience to know. Hire me with full confidence, count on me and I will blow them away.

I will also mention this to my contact who is looking over the writing on my site. Thanks.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Drafty - I think that I will need to mention on my site that (even though I am fully confident in getting the end result), that the audience is aware that equine video and photography is still a new path for me and that I am still very much learning.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> So basically you sent her the link to your site? Because if we're being honest, the whole thing needs to be rewritten. Not trying to be mean, just stating my opinion as a writer. :shrug:


No I sent her all the text in a Word file. I don't think it all needs to be re-written. A lot tweaked yes and some parts re-written but there are pieces that are good like the FAQ page, contact, parts of my bio, parts of the main page, parts like the equine rescue, feedback.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Overread said:


> It's unlikely someone will sue over equine photos shot at events, portrait event or another pre-paid/personal they might argue for their money back. The only time I'd expect lawyers would be if you turn up on site and did something dangerous - eg unfolding a pop-up reflector inches from the horses face.
> 
> Of course many people will scream suing as a first step but it doesn't mean they'd go through with it and normally one would expect discount/full refund/etc.... would resolve the matter.
> 
> ...


Yes I am having the bio fixed. It was my very first piece that I came up with and I think it's too long. I agree about taking about my childhood, what I was like as a kid, yada yada yada. I created a new and shorter, but also more to the point bio and have to send it to my contact as well to work off of.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

loosie said:


> ... *don't want to waste time wading thru a lot of pages & am put off by the ornary stuff. So... first & foremost only the best of the best.*
> 
> I'd remove the ornary ones, ...


There were so many pics that are, well ... common. Ones I would see on anybody's camera, That I thought you must be pushing quantity, rather than quality. I feel like you need to cull these out, so viewers only see extraordinary shots.

I do like how you can pick out a small area of a full shot and make it interesting. I do not like the one's that @*loosie* mentioned, to the extent that it put me off from viewing more categories. (Except for the rope coiled in the man's hands pic-I liked that one).

On my first visit, I had only gone to a section with the subject of your second show. I liked that with the different crops of the same pics and all, as that would give the show participant (potential customer) some idea of what you can do with a single pic.

I was overall less impressed with my second visit to your site, sorry to say. Though both visits were very short. Good that you are making improvements to the text. 

One of the Horses being Horses section that I do like is the horse in the woods/shadows. In one cropped version I had to search for the horse. It drew me to spend time looking at it. 

Keep pics that draw someone's attention, cull out the fillers. Quality over quantity.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> No I sent her all the text in a Word file. I don't think it all needs to be re-written. A lot tweaked yes and some parts re-written but there are pieces that are good like the FAQ page, contact, parts of my bio, parts of the main page, parts like the equine rescue, feedback.


You have already admitted that written word is not your strong point, so why would you not have her review the whole thing? It is shocking how a new set of eyes really helps. The written word was for a long time my craft, doing presentations etc, and I don't think I ever put out something without having a review with somebody, especially as I have a form of dyslexia, and sometimes have complete wrong words in there....I love auto correct, I blame all my mistakes on it. One small point, the feedback page needs a tweak, because of the capitalized words.



> Good point, thanks. I want to sound confident in myself and in my ability but I also don't want to come across as being arrogant. In summary, I know I can get the job done, there is no doubt about it and I know I can deliver the end results. For instance, I have yet to shoot a jumping show but let me shoot a jumping show today and I am confident I know how to walk away with great and correct material.


But that does make you sound arrogant, sorry but it does.....have you even been to a jumping show? Have you ever taken pics of horses jumping at your barn? 

Taking a great, technical, generic picture is one thing, being able to produce the shots a jumper will like, well that is something else, confidence is a good thing, arrogance is not. 



> It's unlikely someone will sue over equine photos shot at events, portrait event or another pre-paid/personal they might argue for their money back. The only time I'd expect lawyers would be if you turn up on site and did something dangerous - eg unfolding a pop-up reflector inches from the horses face.


 @Overread with respect the UK is less sue happy than North America, though Canada is better than the US. There are all sorts of scenarios where people will be unhappy with a shoot, and if you think you are contracting someone with years of experience only to find you have a rookie, it would just add some fuel to that fire.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

anndankev said:


> There were so many pics that are, well ... common. Ones I would see on anybody's camera, That I thought you must be pushing quantity, rather than quality. I feel like you need to cull these out, so viewers only see extraordinary shots.
> 
> I do like how you can pick out a small area of a full shot and make it interesting. I do not like the one's that @*loosie* mentioned, to the extent that it put me off from viewing more categories. (Except for the rope coiled in the man's hands pic-I liked that one).


This was a tough choice for me. I originally started with just 12 photos in my slideshow but then expanded. Why? Because yes I do agree with you in that you only show your best work here, I thought to myself "what if that viewer is spending more time on my page than expected (by reading other sections), by having more photos that come in, it would perhaps engage them more. I know when I go to a site and I see a slideshow like this and by the time I see the same image twice in just under a minute, it gets a bit repetitive. 

Result: I could have more than 8-10, but less than the 50 that I have up right now. I will scale it down to 30 and see how it is.



> On my first visit, I had only gone to a section with the subject of your second show. I liked that with the different crops of the same pics and all, as that would give the show participant (potential customer) some idea of what you can do with a single pic.
> 
> I was overall less impressed with my second visit to your site, sorry to say. Though both visits were very short. Good that you are making improvements to the text.


Is it the splash page? Because I am still considering dropping the splash page altogether.



> One of the Horses being Horses section that I do like is the horse in the woods/shadows. In one cropped version I had to search for the horse. It drew me to spend time looking at it.
> 
> Keep pics that draw someone's attention, cull out the fillers. Quality over quantity.


Thanks. I think I know what picture you are talking about - some of my best work was in my most recent shoot to the countryside.

Also, don't forget that as I get better and put out better work, it will replace my weaker work. I do see your point in that some of my previous and much older work isn't as nice, but I have to use some to show variety in my styles, etc. 

I will remove some though. It's just like with my print portfolio (which will be replaced with a digital one on tablet), I removed and cut a lot of content as I got better work.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

"Good point, thanks. I want to sound confident in myself and in my ability but I also don't want to come across as being arrogant. In summary, I know I can get the job done, there is no doubt about it and I know I can deliver the end results. For instance, I have yet to shoot a jumping show but let me shoot a jumping show today and I am confident I know how to walk away with great and correct material. That's basically what I want the audience to know. Hire me with full confidence, count on me and I will blow them away."

So glad you think this doesn't sound arrogant. I think it does......Have you studied and know the different types of jumps, and what the different parts of the jump are called? So when the exhibitor says, "I GOTTA get to my class....I want the picture of 4422 (exhibitor #)over the second oxer!!!! Thanks!", you know which jump that is?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> I just don't understand the studio quote.....we ARE talking about equine photography, RIGHT? A studio with horses in it is GOING to be stuffy, I promise. Do you have ANY studio portrait experience?


I took it out completely. :grin:

Yes I have quite a bit of studio portrait experience but after some thinking, it's best that I leave it off because it's so irrelevant to equine work.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

One of my friends has offered to take the remaining photos of me tomorrow night. Awesome! This will save me a lot of time. 

With that being said, there is still a couple spots out in the countryside that I would like photos done but there is no emergency. I should be able to shoot these myself whenever I head back out there (I will be making one more trip out there in the Fall to see if I can improve on my sunset shots from last Fall).


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I have cancelled my appointment with the photographer. Will do as you guys suggested and put this money towards getting the writing fixed.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> One of my friends has offered to take the remaining photos of me tomorrow night. Awesome! This will save me a lot of time.
> .





Hoofpic said:


> I have cancelled my appointment with the photographer. Will do as you guys suggested and put this money towards getting the writing fixed.


Just for clarity......in 7 minutes did you cancel your friend, or another photographer?

I really admire your enthusiasm and drive here, but sometimes you need to take a breath, slow down and think things through.....


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> This was a tough choice for me. I originally started with just 12 photos in my slideshow but then expanded. ...
> 
> Is it the splash page? Because I am still considering dropping the splash page altogether.
> 
> ... I get better and put out better work, it will replace my weaker work.....


I wasn't talking about the slideshow, was referring to the pics for sale online in the Horses being Horses section. (Part of my post was MODified.)

I am at a loss to know what a Splash page is. Additionally, I think the slideshow is the pics sort of opaquely changing in the background on the main (?) page of the site. I like that.

My opinion is to cull the weaker work now, and add better work as it becomes available. Again I repeat, Quality over Quantity.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

@anndankev, the splash page is the very first page you get to when you put in the website address that you have to click on the button to enter the actual site. So, in Hoofpic's case, it's the page where he quotes himself and it says "Let's get started" or something like that that you have to click on to get to the actual site.

I vote kill the splash page. Frankly, it's annoying.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

anndankev said:


> Again I repeat, Quality over Quantity.


I agree



DraftyAiresMum said:


> I vote kill the splash page. Frankly, it's annoying.


I agree again


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Well I was up there last weekend with a friend and we were driving around in her Jeep for 4 hours until we finally ran into three wildies on the way back home. We spotted lots of poop but no wildies until the very end. She's shown me exactly where in the countryside to go for the wildies, but it's still a hit or miss.
> 
> I won't be riding up there, I just want to have my photos taken up there. This is the same spot where I took those sunset pictures last Fall.
> 
> ...



While you do run into Wildies, at times, just driving, they don't exactly just hang around the roads! If serious, to photograph them, you need to either use your feet or a horse, JMO!

The top two pictures show it is fairly easy for anyone, my self included, to get some special lighting effect, taken at the right time, with a plain camera
Happen to be taken at our home place
Last picture, is of aferal stallion, we came across one winter, who had been attacked by wolves, thus unable to keep up with the herd. Won't see him, driving along!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Again, these are just pictures , taken by me, and are not hard to come by Why would I buy any ??


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Just for clarity......in 7 minutes did you cancel your friend, or another photographer?
> 
> I really admire your enthusiasm and drive here, but sometimes you need to take a breath, slow down and think things through.....


I had an appointment for this Saturday with a photographer to go out to the countryside to take photos, I cancelled this appointment. 

My friend is going to take the photos for me tomorrow at the barn. She's no photographer but she knows the basics in framing a shot. As long as you can get the subject and what's needed in the frame, I can always crop it to how I want it.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Again, these are just pictures , taken by me, and are not hard to come by Why would I buy any ??
> 
> View attachment 922938


Nice pic! This is the problem facing the profession I guess, we are all budding photographers these days, less likely to hire a professional...but there are still plenty around.



Hoofpic said:


> My friend is going to take the photos for me tomorrow at the barn. She's no photographer but she knows the basics in framing a shot. As long as you can get the subject and what's needed in the frame, I can always crop it to how I want it.


Exactly Smilies point I think


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

@Smilie, I would buy a print of that second shot in your second post. The one with the mountains and the wood fence. I love it!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I took a brief look at your site this morning, I never read through much due to time lacking. 

First thing that hit me was the print was smallish and not a true black so I will fond that difficult to read. (Old eyes) 

I watched the video of the horses charging across a stubble field, what struck me wasn't the actual shooting of the horses, but how badly the riders were riding. It distracted from the actual videoing. 

Will look right through it later.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> I watched the video of the horses charging across a stubble field, what struck me wasn't the actual shooting of the horses, but how badly the riders were riding. It distracted from the actual videoing.
> .


:rofl::rofl: That is such a horse person comment! The advertisers nightmare, we missed your product because we were concentrating on bad riding, wrong tack choices, wondering why wild horses have shoes on.........


ETA, I hadn't actually seen the video, just watched a few seconds and that was enough...is that your work HP? 

It's horrible, sorry for being blunt, but just NO....


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, that video is just plain BAD. The setting, the first horse stumbling, and both riders all over the place. The first horse is also thin, has no topline and a ewe neck. 


Not the type of riders and horses I'd want to show as an example of my work, and that stubbly field is a train wreck of a site. There's a _reason_ that first horse stumbled in that field.


_Nobody_ who knows horses is going to be impressed with that video, especially people who own show horses. It'll do more to turn people away from your work than bring them to you.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

The video is kind of just a bunch of "neat" angles with "eh" subjects. Not to sound overly mean, but it is what it is. I'm BRUTAL when it comes to pictures and videos of me. If Izzie's mouth is open (which she'll do on a loose rein out of boredom, mainly playing with the bit), it's gone. Crappy video of me riding? Yeah, no. That video is just sad. The horses are not in good condition, the stumble isn't exciting, and the yanking on the reins is extremely distracting. I get the odd angles, but as a horse show exhibitor, it's not what I'd look for. I'd want clean, clear videos of me showing my horse at my best. Not hoof level looking up to reveal just how chunky I've gotten, or for something my horse would snort and go "what's THAT?!"

I really urge you to create a different video to put up to showcase your work. Because that won't work for the majority of horse people.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> Have you studied and know the different types of jumps, and what the different parts of the jump are called? So when the exhibitor says, "I GOTTA get to my class....I want the picture of 4422 (exhibitor #)over the second oxer!!!! Thanks!", you know which jump that is?


No I would not know.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Okay no more splash page, it's gone.

Now I feel that I need a tagline to go with my logo.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I took down the video (my only video). I used it because it shows what I can do in terms of style, also lighting, subjects etc. I know that the rider stumbled but I wanted to give the audience a general idea of what I can do with video. 

I mean I have videos (mind you great ones) of horses grazing during sunsets. I could always put that up instead. It's a nice video.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> I wanted to give the audience a general idea of what I can do with video.


But I think what people have been trying to say constructively all along is that while you care about the art, horse people care about the way their horse's conformation and movement are presented. Artistry is a distant second to a horse and rider being captured to their breed, disciplinary specific standards.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

egrogan said:


> But I think what people have been trying to say constructively all along is that while you care about the art, horse people care about the way their horse's conformation and movement are presented. Artistry is a distant second to a horse and rider being captured to their breed, disciplinary specific standards.


YES YES YES......

OK I have some free feedback for you, market research is a priceless thing, and these are some opinions from people I shared the link with...now remember these are people who were just asked to give feedback, they don't know you, they have no preconceived ideas, this is great stuff. What I'm trying to get across is that horse people ARE different. The fact that you put the video up really highlights your lack of knowledge of what horse people want 





> thumbs up to vid, but thumbs down to title. (flight implies motion, so it is a redundant phrase.)
> 
> 
> Thumbs up minus the horse tripping in the beginning.
> ...


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Hoofpic said:


> No I would not know.



I posted about jumping language several pages back. You must study terms if you are going to shoot jumping shows. If you don't know what oxers, verticals, in and outs, triples, doubles, combinations, C of the combination means... and miss a requested jump by a client, that is not good. There are many more terms but I'm typing on my phone.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

updownrider said:


> I posted about jumping language several pages back. You must study terms if you are going to shoot jumping shows. If you don't know what oxers, verticals, in and outs, triples, doubles, combinations, C of the combination means... and miss a requested jump by a client, that is not good. There are many more terms but I'm typing on my phone.


To add to this...

It's not just the terminology that needs to be learned. As has been said before, proper timing and understanding the sport itself are essential to getting good shots that people will actually want to purchase. 

Remember when you shot that fun show and gymkhana and were irritated that some of the barrel racers had the nerve to "go the wrong way"? You had no understanding of how the sport works to be able to set yourself up to take solid shots of the competitions. If you get out there to shoot a jumping show and have no idea of the workings of the type of jumping you're shooting (hunters versus show jumping versus cross country), you're not going to be able to set yourself up to take the best shots possible.

The artsy shots are fine for portrait sessions and even gymkhanas. Unfortunately, artsy shots won't fly with the jumping set. They want technically good shots that show their horse to its best advantage, being ridden correctly and executing the jump correctly. Anything less and they'll walk away. Same goes for dressage. Some artsy shots are okay, but they mostly want to see their horse working correctly.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A friend of mine was a professional photographer in that he was in the Royal Navy and took photos of shells landing 25 miles from the ship. The cameras amd lens he had access to was way beyond most people's reach. One of the best shots of my face was of me with a grin like the Cheshire Cat, as I cleared a very tricky fence on a cross country course taken from about three quarters of a mile away. He was stood on the top of the horsebox with some very big lens. 
The thing was that he was brilliant at looking at the technical side of things but not very good at knowing about horses and riders. It took him a long time to get that right. Would have cost a fortune but hos films were from the RN and he also developed all himself. This was way before the digital era. 

I would say he spent about two years learning about equine photography before he considered selling any pictures.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

egrogan said:


> But I think what people have been trying to say constructively all along is that while you care about the art, horse people care about the way their horse's conformation and movement are presented. Artistry is a distant second to a horse and rider being captured to their breed, disciplinary specific standards.


That's true, I see it now. I didn't get it before. I need to get videos up there and I will have to start with freestyle videos that I create from scratch. It's probably going to be awhile before I get my first client doing video but I need to fill some space on there.

With that being said, I still don't think my slow mo video of horses grazing in the sunset with dust bunnies floating around is a bad video to post up. I quite like this video. I wouldn't post it as a portfolio piece but on the Cost > Videography page it would do a nice job.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Again, these are just pictures , taken by me, and are not hard to come by Why would I buy any ??
> 
> View attachment 922938
> 
> ...


Those are nice pictures but you have to remember that every one has different opinions on what they believe to be a nice photo, and one that they would buy. That's what makes photography so great because no two people will see a photo the exact same way. 

There's some people who don't see enough of a difference between a smartphone photo and a professionally taken one and there are others who only want the best of the best and will look at nothing less.

For instance if you go to my portraiture section in my portfolio, you will see some most recent photos I took of one of my friends (yes the day we were searching for wildies out in the country). I took those with my previous copy of my new lens (had to exchange this past weekend cause it was defective) and it was untuned. I got the new copy and (even though it took me all day, yes literally all day on Saturday) to tune that thing to perfection, just imagine the difference it will make over those current photos and then a lesser camera like a smartphone.
I haven't used my new copy since I exchanged it on the weekend and tuned it but I can't wait to see the results now that I have a properly tuned lens.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> The thing was that he was brilliant at looking at the technical side of things but not very good at knowing about horses and riders. It took him a long time to get that right. Would have cost a fortune but hos films were from the RN and he also developed all himself. This was way before the digital era.
> 
> I would say he spent about two years learning about equine photography before he considered selling any pictures.


Sounds about right


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

My contact is going to get started on my edits and I am very excited to see what she comes with! Now mind you, she is in no way a horse person so she does not know the industry but I thoroughly explained to her on exactly what I need fixed and she will get me the first draft tomorrow.


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

Most professional photographer websites I've seen/glanced at tend to have maybe 6 to 12 at most photos per theme/subject/market section that showcase what they can do. Coupled with maybe one photo of themselves, either a self portrait with a camera or a professionally done photo where its clear they've had someone else take the photo. In that latter case it doesn't matter if another pro took it or not, its just a way to show themselves on the webpage professionally and in keeping with the rest of their site. 

You don't need many photos to show what you can do, you just have to pick a selection of your best that show what you can consistently produce.


Considering how you've hardly done video as yet I'd leave that off, it doesn't sound like you're even quite sure what video product your offering nor like you'll be able to turn up and show video work. In general those that I've seen wanting to do video were always going the same way - single fixed camera recording the event from a good vantage point for the rider to review after. The video wasn't in any way arty, it was a purely functional service and product. So its not even a high quality product like the photos; its the video produced alongside the photos (since you'd need a trained assistant to do otherwise). 

You might in time be able to sell videography as a market of its own with a bit more artiness in it. But at this stage I think you don't know enough nor have the experience to offer that product. Don't make the classic mistake of trying to do everything from the get-go - focus on your strengths and sell on that; add in things in time.

Heck you might find you do well enough that you don't have time or resources to dedicate to video anyway. No sense overloading your plate before you get there. Better to expand and add to a strong business than start with too much and be constantly having to cut things back.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> My contact is going to get started on my edits and I am very excited to see what she comes with! Now mind you, she is in no way a horse person so she does not know the industry but I thoroughly explained to her on exactly what I need fixed and she will get me the first draft tomorrow.


Maybe you should take the time to find someone who DOES know the industry (obviously important, as Golden Horse's experiment seems to prove) and the language of both equine and English. That way, you are not wasting money and time.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I never read all responses,but can see you could get your services out to a local market:smile:. Myself I show Breed shows & know having some video footage of me in a class is something I could potential go for. As an Amateur exhibitor going to shows without my spouse or other family members,I'm alone with nobody to take even some candid pictures or video of me.:sad: There is a member of our assosiation that does do random pictures at shows & posts them to our club site,know we all appreciate the moments he captures:smile:.Getting videos unless you snag someone before hand to take some iphone video of you is usually all you can hope for...


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I show and train dogs. There are usually some art photographers doing portraits at shows, and they are MUCH different than the shots taken by the official show photographer that include win pictures, ringside shots showing movement, etc. You must know what each breed, sport, and type of exhibitor is going to want. When it comes down to it, most buyers have limited income to spend on show photos, and generally official win shots and photos that could be used in magazines to advertise the horse and/or rider are the ones they'll buy. The art shots may be purchased once a year or so, but not very frequently. I see photographers who do lovely portraits sitting idly with no business because nearly anyone can take decent art shots, even with a cell phone, but it takes a lot of knowledge and talent to get a good conformation or show photo that shows the animal at his/her best.

When you're shooting dressage, you need to know what each movement is called and what a proper shot of that movement entails. Wrong phase of the extended trot and nobody will buy. Canter with the front legs on the ground rather than the rear legs? Throw those out. 

Jumpers and hunters are very particular in the angle of the photo and what phase of the jump it shows. A split second too early or too late and nobody will buy it. 

Western and HUS horses want photos at particular stages of the stride, whether the horse is loose in a paddock or under saddle.

Barrel racers want shots turning the barrel that flatter the horse and rider. Too early or too late, and it's a no go. Barrel racers can go to either the right or left barrel first, so many photographers will focus on the third barrel to get the best chance of a good shot of each horse and rider. 

If a rider hires you for a specific shot, you need to know you CAN get good photos of what they request. One customer saying they hired you to get a shot of the 9th fence for an advertisement will badmouth you to anyone who will listen if you got them a shot at the 7th but the one at the 9th was too late and the horse had started unfolding his forelegs, or if the lighting was bad. 

Draft hitch and conformation classes want very different shots than light horse driving or combined driving. 

Videography is going to be tough-- you MUST know the industry and work with someone who does, or you're wasting your time and money. It's harder to get good video than good photos.


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

If I were seriously going to shoot Dressage I'd find a local dressage school and go there every single day I could every week for a few months to learn the timing and practice shooting - even then I'd wager a few machinegun style shots are going to to be the order of the day to capture that exact moment all the parts are aligned up right. 

Jumping is a little easier, the "moment" is longer (on a good jump); the build up and pose much more bold and easy to time for and the overall position easier to work with. It's far more about finding a good angle than the actual timing of the moment. Dressage though is the polar opposite; its all a lot slower and the right angle is very important, but the harder part is the timing of that split second.

that and for those who are not very horsey its far more demanding on correct posture and phases of motion.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

loosie said:


> I'd have a bigger range of different pics on your opening page & make sure they're the best of the best - leave out horses with their heads behind trees, horses with their ...doodles out, etc, etc. I want to quickly & easily see your best work, what you're capable of. I don't want to waste time wading thru a lot of pages & am put off by the ornary stuff. So... first & foremost only the best of the best.


I would like a bigger range of horse pics but right now I don't have anymore aside from what I currently have up. I spent quite a bit of time choosing which ones go up on the main page and in which order they play in. I wanted to start off with a bang and wow people so I put in 3 of my best photos in the first 5 rotations.

This is one reason why I ended up adding two pages for "Tack" and another for "barns and arenas" because it will expand my subjects a little more and we all know that people in the industry who love tack will appreciate a photographer who can take good photos of tack. Could you imagine if I can build a nice photo collection of saddles? It would potentially open up a new market for me. 

There are also people who love looking at nice arenas and barns. I think this is unique, I have yet to see a tack page on another equestrian photographers website yet. I'm not saying they are wrong for not having it, but again, it's just one of those things that I offer to stand out from the crowd.

I need to build up my collection of tack photos, right now I only have one. 



> I'd remove the ornary ones, like horses eating hay, av. head shots, mare flashing her vulva at the camera, horse with it's head in a bucket...


I will be removing a few of them yes. Headshots however are very key. You need to be able to show that you can shoot many different styles and headshots give off a completely different message that other photos are not capable of. 



> Not sure about the woman in odd positions on a bit of fence... those ones remind me of a hilarious thing I saw recently with a 'normal' looking woman doing poses & dressing up to copy posed pics of famous people.


Do you mean in the portraiture session? That is one of my friends. We were out in the country and came across this cow arena (Forgot the name), but she said to take photos of it. Then she said to take photos of her so I did. It wasn't a set thing. I don't think they look tacky, sometimes you have to put some humor into your photos. I will be shooting my trainer and her big Freisan mare next and this will be much more in depth this time and most likely a portraiture session (I still have to talk to her about it) and make sure that she is okay with me using her photos on my website and selling any photos of her mare that don't have her in it.



> I'd also ensure the thumbnail pics under each heading showed the whole photo, not just part of them. So you could see it at a glance, only have to click on each individual pic if you wanted to see more detail.


Unfortunately, this is one of the limitations with this Squarespace template. 



> In the 'wild horses' section I think you have some in there by mistake? If not, if they're captured wild horses, I'd still remove them. That is, the 'wild' horses who are behind barbed wire & in a barn paddock. Would make me wonder if any of those pics are of actual wild horses.


Yes they are wildies.



> Tack & barns & arenas... A pic of messy ropes, a pic of a wall with a (garage?)door in it & a pic of some post & rail fencing & grass don't impress. I do like the one of the gate/yards in the sunset tho.


I like them all. 



> On the 'meet steven' page I am not interested to read a lot of trivia about how you grew up, but I guess, if people are, that's what this page is for. I don't know why you've got all those pics of... walls & such under your writing tho?


I have drastically trimmed my bio page and the contact I have to writer for me will finish it up. You are right though, no need to talk about my childhood etc. All those pics of walls are generic built in template shots, they will be replaced by my own photos when I get them done tomorrow night.



> Costs... $150 as a booking fee seems excessive for the portraits IMO, especially when there is a 'no exceptions' no return in case of emergency, only with 72hrs notice. It's got to be enough to deter people cancelling without good reason, but to potentially lose the whole $150 because I was sick, the show was cancelled, whatever, would put me off.


$150 seems to be the standard in the industry. I did this to cover my costs for time and gas if I was to ever go and drive out to a location and no one is there or it gets cancelled very last minute.



> The show photography, $75/hr or $275 for a *MAX* of 4 hrs - so I MIGHT save $25 by booking half day rather than hourly for 4 hrs? And the full day rate also says max of 4 hrs - gather that's a mistake. So then on top of the time rate, you have to pay for a photo package? Might be better if you had your packages all inclusive & 'starting from' 25 prints... Not knowing how the show/pics are going to turn out, even 25 pics might be excessive - I'd maybe want a lesser pack option, and see & choose the pics I wanted you to print for me & whether I wanted more. I'd also offer different sizes - I gather these are just for standard size prints & some of them would look great as wall posters... Perhaps you can look at what they offer for school photography as an idea of the 'packages'.


Thanks for pointing out that error, I will fix it. 

I was thinking about having inclusive packages but I was having difficulty in setting packages. I would love to have it so that it's the same structure as my portraiture packages (Green, seasoned, coach).

I always want to keep it as simple as possible.



> The videography page - that one vid doesn't excite me. I'd want to see at least a couple of good egs of your finished vids. But the costs... seems quite reasonable, except there are no eg. rates for products. Eg. If I want you to spend 2 hrs filming & want a 60 second ad out of it, what's that likely to cost me? Obviously the editing is subjective time-wise, but I want an idea.


I took the video down for the time being, I might put another one up. 

Video costs are always more than photo because of the extra set up time, working with the extra gear etc. Setting up video gear is time consuming (even when you are as fast as I am and/or just using a slider and gimbal or shoulder mount). There are a lot of steps and points to check that photo work doesn't require. Most videographers have a minimum set of hours to shoot on site and won't do one hour sessions because with the set up and travel, it's not worth it. Factor in that I offer 100km round trip included into my pricing as well. A place 50km away from me would be almost an hour to get to (and definitely an hour in rush hour), so that 1 hour session would turn into 3 hours. 3 hours of work for $75CDN? I will pass. That's why I have a minimum two hour booking rate for video and shows. 

Even if you want a video that is 2 minutes complete, you still have to factor in all the time it takes to set up gear, etc. 2 minutes finished product would be about 10-15 minutes of pre-recorded material. From what I know, videographers are firm on their minimal hour bookings and hence why many have a set minimum at 3 or so hours. I know someone with a minimum of 4 hours. That to me is a bit high, but 2 is more than reasonable.

I will say though that my set up for video work will be as minimal as I can get it to be. Everything will be mobile and it will help cut back on the set up time, but it's still significantly more steps than photo work.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

No, it's not responsive, but photographers like Bob Langrish and David Stoecklein don't have to be. Their reputation is such that people line up to get shots by them. As a new photographer without a worldwide reputation, the requirements are completely different.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is a promo video, for a harness racer stallion






Here is a promo video for aHUS stallion, These Irons are Hot. I can see that he is a great mover







Free style reining


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> I would like a bigger range of horse pics but right now I don't have anymore aside from what I currently have up. I spent quite a bit of time choosing which ones go up on the main page and in which order they play in. I wanted to start off with a bang and wow people so I put in 3 of my best photos in the first 5 rotations.


Quality trumps quantity



Hoofpic said:


> This is one reason why I ended up adding two pages for "Tack" and another for "barns and arenas" because it will expand my subjects a little more and we all know that people in the industry who love tack will appreciate a photographer who can take good photos of tack. Could you imagine if I can build a nice photo collection of saddles? It would potentially open up a new market for me.


Where do you see the market in a collection of photos of saddles, who is the target audience? I don't know anyone who dreams of decent pictures of tack, I just dream of spending money on tack! Again who do you see buying these?




Hoofpic said:


> There are also people who love looking at nice arenas and barns. I think this is unique, I have yet to see a tack page on another equestrian photographers website yet. I'm not saying they are wrong for not having it, but again, it's just one of those things that I offer to stand out from the crowd.


Once again you don't see it, ask yourself why not



Hoofpic said:


> I need to build up my collection of tack photos, right now I only have one.







Hoofpic said:


> I will be removing a few of them yes. Headshots however are very key. You need to be able to show that you can shoot many different styles and headshots give off a completely different message that other photos are not capable of.
> 
> Whatever floats your boat
> 
> ...


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

OK here is the second part of your free 'customer' feedback....remember these people have no idea who you are, but they still have generously tried to give you some feedback, in some cases very detailed. I would spend some time reading and thinking, and wondering what the future looks like. 



> there's potential but I'd want to see more detail of horse/rider/movement of the horse other than just a silhouette. Given time and practice I'd be willing to reconsider
> 
> The poor horsemanship turned me off. The lighting at points was good.
> 
> ...


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I can kind of see someone wanting an artsy print of a collection of saddles or fencing or some wild horses. I like to decorate my living room with rustic kind of western decor and several of Hoofpic's artsy photos could find a home on my walls. 

I do think it needs to be more clearly stated on the site that the portfolio pics are available for purchase.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I'd rather see four photos that are really well-done than a dozen that aren't. All it takes is one bad photo to make someone move on. 

I have worked in photography and marketing. Can I make a suggestion?

- offer to shoot for free (no booking fee) with 2 free photos for the subject. If they like your work, they may buy more, or even the whole shoot. Set a price per photo after the first two, and then another price for the whole portfolio (with your worst shots that you don't want out there removed, of course) and sell by 'rights' not prints-- the person buys the rights to the photos and can then use them as they wish, have them printed, etc. and you give them to the recipient on a thumb drive or send as a download. If they want a bunch of prints, price them accordingly and have them professionally printed at somewhere like Mpix and drop-shipped. When you do these shots, have the subject sign a release that you may use the photos for marketing purposes if you wish. You can be picky or not picky here-- but know that if their horse just isn't photogenic or the background is a wire fence, they may not like the shots you take. Learn what angles show what faults and attributes to their least and most advantage, and how to minimize bad backgrounds and the like now rather than when people pay you then complain when they don't like the images you got.

- if you get no responses asking you to shoot them, approach horse owners and ask it you can take some shots of their animals with the above offer of a couple of free images for them. The key here is to approach quality horses and make sure you can shoot in settings that will give you good shots. 

- your prices are just too high for the quality of shots you're doing right now. The 'going rate' means nothing until you can produce quality images every time.

- Start out with one specialty--- if that's promotional shots for stallions, then approach stallion owners and make your offer. Don't use top-end stallions for these-- those folks already have the professionals that shoot for them. Aim for mid-range stallions ($400 - $800 breeding fee) for ranches and farms that typically advertise on FB and regional sites. These are the farms where you can really make a name for yourself as they tend to have decent stallions and photos of the horse standing out in a pasture or trotting around in a pen and that's it. Get a few good shots of these stallions showing them off to their best, and if you do, that farm will see a big uptick in interest from mare owners based on those photos and they'll have you back. One area farm had someone come do a few quick shots of one of their lovely young stallions. I've seen this stud advertised before, and he's a nice horse, but the photo didn't show him off real well. Their photographer got three great shots-- one of him galloping in the round pen with great lighting, one conformation photo where he looked great, and a beautiful headshot. The farm posted those three pictures and a quick blurb that their stallion was now booking for the 2018 season, and they had HUNDREDS of likes, reposts, and responses to that Facebook post, and his book was filled in 2 days. You can bet they'll have that photographer out again for their other stallion. Those are the types of clients to get started with. If you want to do mare/foal shoots, then do that. If you want to shoot barrel racing, then concentrate on that. The key here is to pick one specialty and go with that first. "Horse photos" isn't specialized enough. Pick one. Learn all you can about it. Attend events. Pore over the magazines for that part of the industry. Look at the photos that show up in stallion ads, for sale ads, and online for teh top-level horses and riders. Even lower-level barrel racers want their photos to look like the ones of Sherry Cervi at the NFR. Offer to shoot for free to build up your portfolio. If you do a good job, your subjects will buy some prints. Once you have a reputation and have people consistently approaching you at events to shoot their rides, THEN you can start booking some private shoots and pricing them accordingly.



Your goal here is to get GOOD, professional-looking shots that people will buy, not what you like for yourself. Horse people are very traditional, and even with art shots, they want certain lighting, poses, and movements. If you want shots of tack rooms, saddles, different angles, etc. that's fine, but then you need to be in the stock photo market instead.


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> that's fine, but then you need to be in the stock photo market instead.


And I wouldn't even aim for the stock photo market at all. With microstock the value of a photo in stock is basically almost nothing. The only people making any money in stock have got thousands of photos and a name for themselves, everyone else makes a trickle if anything out of stock. Time once was stock was a nice little side earner or could be your main business, but they made photos cheaper and cheaper (because you could sell more) to a point where the market itself is basically unsustainable for the photographer. 



Also don't confuse a portfolio with a sale site. Your portfolio page is to show your best and to entice people to hire you for work. If you want to then sell prints you want that either on a linked separate site (with the suitable shop-front design) or on a separate page of your main site. 
You might make some arty shot sales, but remember that its a different market to the pure horsey-people market, they will overlap but its somewhat different.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> No I sent her all the text in a Word file. I don't think it all needs to be re-written. A lot tweaked yes and some parts re-written but there are pieces that are good like the FAQ page, contact, parts of my bio, parts of the main page, parts like the equine rescue, feedback.


Just having a quick look through the FAQ page, that you think is good....

*When do I pay you?*
You must pay your booking fee deposit at the time of booking and *the remainder on the day of and at the time of your booking,*

that is confusing, should that be at the time of your session, or appointment?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Some more of many gorgeous pics I've seen from you Smilie!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Overread said:


> Most professional photographer websites I've seen/glanced at tend to have maybe 6 to 12 at most photos per theme/subject/market section that showcase what they can do. Coupled with maybe one photo of themselves, either a self portrait with a camera or a professionally done photo where its clear they've had someone else take the photo. In that latter case it doesn't matter if another pro took it or not, its just a way to show themselves on the webpage professionally and in keeping with the rest of their site.


Im scaling back on the 40 or 45 photos that I currently have up on my main page but it will be more than the norm 8-10. 

Maybe its just me but I still find it annoying when you sre on a site with a slideshow and you have to view the same images over and over again.

I will then need to put a message nearby to indiciate that the rest of my work is in the portfolio section. Id hate to see people think that all I have is 8-10 photos in my entire portfolio.

Yes I know that I have a link to my portfolio above but you may be surprised in how many viewers that wont notice it and they will be so engaged by viewing my slideshow and assume that that is all I have.




> You don't need many photos to show what you can do, you just have to pick a selection of your best that show what you can consistently produce.


True. I am going to scale back. Another question that I have been wanting to ask. If I take photos of say others horses or animals (because I do have quite a few of my BOs horses, dogs, goat and my trainers and friends horses), should I be asking for their permission for me to sell my photos of their animals?




> Considering how you've hardly done video as yet I'd leave that off, it doesn't sound like you're even quite sure what video product your offering nor like you'll be able to turn up and show video work. In general those that I've seen wanting to do video were always going the same way - single fixed camera recording the event from a good vantage point for the rider to review after. The video wasn't in any way arty, it was a purely functional service and product. So its not even a high quality product like the photos; its the video produced alongside the photos (since you'd need a trained assistant to do otherwise).


I see your point. I still would like to advertise video though. Why? I plan on doing at least a couple freestyle videos when I head back out to the countryside this Fall. It wont be anything super intense but it will get the message across.



> You might in time be able to sell videography as a market of its own with a bit more artiness in it. But at this stage I think you don't know enough nor have the experience to offer that product. Don't make the classic mistake of trying to do everything from the get-go - focus on your strengths and sell on that; add in things in time.


From what Ive seen, I havent come across any equine videographers in Alberta. They are all photographers and they either do portraiture or shows but not both.

Not saying that there is anything wrong with that but I want to expand on that and offer much more.



> Heck you might find you do well enough that you don't have time or resources to dedicate to video anyway. No sense overloading your plate before you get there. Better to expand and add to a strong business than start with too much and be constantly having to cut things back.


I did consider awhile scaling back and only offering to shoot western but it would be tough to give up customers and exposure to the English market (English is HUGE hete in Alberta). Thats one reason why I am doing both shows AND portraiture because there is just not big enough of a market for one or the other.

My goal is still to get together with top pros who have been shooting English so that I can learn from them. All I need to do is watch and observe.

This is why when times are quiet I will shoot on my own and sell my photos. I want my photos bought by many and framed to be put on walls by some. My photos being sold as stock photos wont be seen as an extra service, that is why I am not really advertising it. Its just seen as an extra incentive when visiting my portfolio. Its better to give your viewers the option to buy (and with instant checkout) than not to buy at all.

When I shot my very first show 2 months ago, the number one question that I was asked by many riders after was "Do you have a website for me to see the rest of your photos of me and can I order by credit card? I have given these people now the option to buy online with instant checkout.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hoofpic said:


> I took down the video (my only video). I used it because it shows what I can do in terms of style, also lighting, subjects etc. I know that the rider stumbled but I wanted to give the audience a general idea of what I can do with video.
> 
> I mean I have videos (mind you great ones) of horses grazing during sunsets. I could always put that up instead. It's a nice video.


The general idea you're giving people, with that vid(agree the terrible riding also completely distracted me from any 'style & lighting') & all the pics that aren't anything special, is that you have lots of mediocre stuff YOU think is worth selling. That to me is an advertisement AGAINST paying you for anything. A vid of horses grazing doesn't sound special either. You need to put up much better than 'nice' if you want people to think your stuff is worth paying for.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

egrogan said:


> But I think what people have been trying to say constructively all along is that while you care about the art, horse people care about the way their horse's conformation and movement are presented. Artistry is a distant second to a horse and rider being captured to their breed, disciplinary specific standards.


Exactly. If he were marketing to non horse people...


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Watch the Claiborne Farm videos on YouTube. Nearly every shot is calendar-worthy. Watch the stallion advertising videos in the thoroughbred industry. That's the type of videography people pay money for.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

loosie said:


> The general idea you're giving people, with that vid(agree the terrible riding also completely distracted me from any 'style & lighting') & all the pics that aren't anything special, is that you have lots of mediocre stuff YOU think is worth selling. That to me is an advertisement AGAINST paying you for anything. A vid of horses grazing doesn't sound special either. You need to put up much better than 'nice' if you want people to think your stuff is worth paying for.


Dont worry I am trimming back on my content tonight.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Remember, I am a stranger. I am a prospective customer. Your website is advertising what you can offer me and showing me whether you're worth employing. That is the vein in which I'm giving you my feedback.



Hoofpic said:


> I would like a bigger range of horse pics but right now I don't have anymore aside from what I currently have up.


Whatever the 'range' you have or not, you're including ones that only 'stand you out in the crowd' as having mediocre work YOU think is worth people paying money for. Whether it's on the main page, shows, tack... whatever. 

From what you've said & shown, I think it's a huge mistake that you're even offering videoing at all. You need to gain the necessary skill & experience BEFORE you bother to advertise & charge for it. 



> Could you imagine if I can build a nice photo collection of saddles? It would potentially open up a new market for me.


Would it? But again, you have to HAVE nice photos anyway. Remember, I'm a stranger who is purely looking at what you are advertising to promote yourself. I'm not interested in 'imagining' what you might be able to do. I see a pic of some messy old leadropes, or a pic of a wall with a door in it, that's what I think you can offer. 



> Do you mean in the portraiture session? That is one of my friends. We were out in the country and came across this cow arena


I'm not interested in justifications. I'm interested in seeing how good you are, whether you're worth paying money to or not. Especially when you're asking 'going rates' for pro work.



> Yes they are wildies.


Telling me that is irrelevant. They are obviously behind a fence & on a farm, so not 'wild horse pics'. Which also make me doubt any others on that page.



> I like them all.


Again, irrelevant. Unless you're only marketing to yourself.



> $150 seems to be the standard in the industry.


Again, irrelevant, if you don't get any work because of it. 



> Video costs are always more than photo because of the extra set up time,


I know all that. Irrelevant to what I said tho. And I think also charging anything at all for vids is a mistake until you gain more skill & experience. I would be extremely disgruntled & want my money back if you produced anything like that vid for me & charged me for it.



> 2 minutes finished product would be about 10-15 minutes of pre-recorded material.


At very least I would say. Depending on what they're after, it's not uncommon for cinematographers to spend a day or more filming for a short ad.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> @*Smilie*, I would buy a print of that second shot in your second post. The one with the mountains and the wood fence. I love it!


Thanks, that was taken early one morning, at the Ya Ha Tinda camp ground.
I get up early to take the horses down for water, and then feed them, while hubby gets the fire in the stove going, and makes coffee.
You can't see them in the picture, but there were also a herd of elk against those trees. They were hanging around the Ya Ha tinda ranch area (no hunting on the ranch itself), as there was heavy wolf predation that year.
When I say ranch, it is a government ranch,, where the horses used in the Parks were raised, and not an actual ranch, as it is a unique grassland area between the mountains, and not anywhere near actual ranching country
They no longer breed horses there, but buy prospects, but the hroses still over winter there, in the non active part patrol times

Here is some info on the Ya Ha Tinda, and if you scroll through the pictures, you can see that same rail fence in the background, where some people are having a picnic in the Bighorn campground

http://www.explor8ion.com/book/export/html/751


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Had to add, if you scroll through all those pictures in the link above, there are some amazing shots of Aurora Borealis , in that area.-pictures that I would frame!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I just increased the body text size across the entire site, looks much better now! Increased the spacing both horizontally and vertically. Have to remember that some people won't have great eye sight.

I will also mention that someone on HF is re-writing my site.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I wanted to mention one thing. I shot a driving class (short, just 1 hour but it was still beneficial) for AEF (Alberta Equestrian Federation) 2 weeks ago and it went well. I asked them afterwards if they would write a testimonial for me (because it would look amazing on my site as AEF is known by just about every horse person in Alberta or even Western Canada), and they said that they would like for me to become a paid member instead and then they can help advertise for my services. It is $170CDN a year and I have a breakdown of what you get.

They said that with their business membership I get affordable advertising and marketing opportunities to the AEF community. I would be listed on their directory and would include my logo, contact info and description. When their members inquire about specific equine businesses they promote and direct individuals to their business directory.

I would also receive a listing in their member magazine "Alberta Bits" which is sent out to members four times a year. The magazine is also distributed to Alberta Tack stores and businesses. I would also get 30% off advertising rates within this magazine. 

There are also opportunities to promote my business at AEF events.

Thoughts on this?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Did several changes to the site tonight.

- body text is much better size and more easily read for older people with not as good eye sight.
- trimmed the fat and got rid of some pictures in both the portfolio and store. 
- slimmed down my main page slideshow a bit but there is no way i can go less. I just have too many good pics in it to show.


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

Any advertising you take on ideally wants to be something you can track. You want to be able, at the end of the year, to sit back and review who hired you and why. That way you can tell if people are seeing your ads and make choices in the long term as to if advertising in a specific spot is helping you or just a cost that isn't even covering itself. It's very valuable information.

Also have a look at who else advertises with them and the quality of work they produce; if you see all top pros advertising there then chances are its going to be worth it if you can compete with them; if you see all beginners with not very serious photos it might be that its not a very good advertising spot (otherwise why wouldn't other serious pros advertise there); and if no one is advertising there that's another signal.

Of course it could just be that no one else has thought of/paid for it to try so there's always that to consider. 


Also remember accolades are not going to sell you because XYZ said your photos are great. Accolades are going to sell you because you turned up on time, shot well; were respectful and polite and generally did well. Your photos will sell you on your quality of product.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I think you need to really need to look at the pictures and see if they are REALLY professional quality pictures. I see quite a few in the horse and other animal section that don't show your work to its full potential and should have been left on the editing program. 

The thing about selling photography is that it often isn't about what YOU want. It is about what other people WANT and will buy. Artistry is good, but you need to set up the animals to their full potential. They need to be as clean as possible(if they aren't wild beasts), you need to get them at the proper angles to show off their conformation the best. Be discreet about the less refined things that animals do... try not to get directly behind shots of mares if possible... or at least not have them be the focus of the picture.... and generally make the coats be as healthy and as true (if not slightly truer) to life as possible unless you are working in dust or fog for effect. I want my animals coats to POP!!!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

loosie said:


> The general idea you're giving people, with that vid(agree the terrible riding also completely distracted me from any 'style & lighting') & all the pics that aren't anything special, is that you have lots of mediocre stuff YOU think is worth selling. That to me is an advertisement AGAINST paying you for anything. A vid of horses grazing doesn't sound special either. You need to put up much better than 'nice' if you want people to think your stuff is worth paying for.


Okay, glad I removed my video before publicly releasing my site. Like I said, I have many people waiting to see my site and ready to share it like wildfire to everyone they know including friends and my trainer (who has a lot of contacts in the horse industry). 

I will have to think it over to decide what kind of sample videos I will shoot on my own to put up as sell able material. I'm leaning more towards a memorial video simply because before I got into horses a few years ago I would always watch memorial horse videos on YouTube.

Honestly, I would love to track down a trainer who does liberty with their horse, I could capture that nicely.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

loosie said:


> Remember, I am a stranger. I am a prospective customer. Your website is advertising what you can offer me and showing me whether you're worth employing. That is the vein in which I'm giving you my feedback.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Here is a promo video, for a harness racer stallion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. I can't get the third one to play. Second one is awesome, first one is great too but looks dated. Wonder when they shot that.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Why would AEF give you a testimonial? Just because you showed up and shot video on your own recognizance doesn't mean anything to them.


Yes, they want you to join their organization. There's nothing in it for them if you don't. It doesn't mean they're going to steer business your way, just that you'll be allowed to advertise in their publications.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

You're getting the cart before the horse. You need to get better photos before you make your site live and 'your friends start sharing it like wildfire.' You get ONE chance to make a good impression. One. Do not waste it with photos of messy leadropes, horses with unkempt coats, and mediocre shots anyone with a cell phone can take. Get your portfolio made, do some sessions for free to get access to good locations and good horses, go to some art shows, and sell some pieces and get feedback before you do a hard release and start advertising. You can certainly sell prints before you advertise and book sessions on your site-- I'd recommend doing just that. Print up some prints, and see who they sell to. Go as a vendor to some horse shows with your prints. Are horse people buying them? Now go to some regular art markets-- if you sell better at those, then maybe that's your niche. You seem to want to do more 'art shots' than good horse photography, so the market you have in mind may not be the one to use. 

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm not trying to squash your dream. I hope you do very well, but you need to get everything in place before you jump in with both feet. I don't think you have any idea of what horse people are looking for in photography or videography.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> Thanks. I can't get the third one to play. Second one is awesome, first one is great too but looks dated. Wonder when they shot that.


 You have to click on the third one, to view it on youtube


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

> > Would it? But again, you have to HAVE nice photos anyway. Remember, I'm a stranger who is purely looking at what you are advertising to promote yourself. I'm not interested in 'imagining' what you might be able to do. I see a pic of some messy old leadropes, or a pic of a wall with a door in it, that's what I think you can offer.
> 
> 
> I still believe those images are nice photos.


 @Hoofpic, yes they are 'nice' pics, post them on your journal and everyone would rave over them.

All of us can take 'nice' pics.

You want to be a professional, you need to only share outstanding pics, purchase worthy shots, ones that I can't do with my equipment.

Nice doesn't cut it, neither does "well I like it" you want to credible in business you no longer have the luxury of what you like.

Oh and I looked at the wild horse section again last night, thank goodness you FINALLY agree that horses behind a fence by a barn aren't wild, there doesn't appear to be one level horizon in there! Please learn to shoot straight


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> I wanted to mention one thing. I shot a driving class (short, just 1 hour but it was still beneficial) for AEF (Alberta Equestrian Federation) 2 weeks ago and it went well. I asked them afterwards if they would write a testimonial for me (because it would look amazing on my site as AEF is known by just about every horse person in Alberta or even Western Canada), and they said that they would like for me to become a paid member instead and then they can help advertise for my services. It is $170CDN a year and I have a breakdown of what you get.
> 
> They said that with their business membership I get affordable advertising and marketing opportunities to the AEF community. I would be listed on their directory and would include my logo, contact info and description. When their members inquire about specific equine businesses they promote and direct individuals to their business directory.
> 
> ...



AEF membership is required by many open light horse type shows, for insurance, so that puts in you that market, and perhaps a good place to start.
It does not put you out there for the specialty top venue shows, like NRCHA, stock horse breed shows, ect
I now have an AEF membership, purely because I quit showing at the breed level, and am required to have it, for most of the open type shows I now occasionally show at. That is the western perspective, anyways, English might well differ.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

I have not viewed your website but wanted to give you some perspective on what I paid for - attached you will find my daughters Senior pictures. Most taken with her horse. The photographer was a 22 yr old college student that does photography on the side. She shoots mostly Sr and Family pics - many include animals. I paid $125 for 75 pictures that she released to me. She has done some local shows and did the 4-H fair here - and charged $10 per photo of the winners posing in front of the 4-H show sign. She let parents review the photos on her camera and give their OK on the photo of their choice. She spent a long week there with kids with horses, cows, pigs, goats, rabbits and chickens. BUT - she said she made very good money and sold hundreds of photos. She plans on doing it again next year. She is going to school for Graphic Arts and enjoys video'ing and photo shoots of many different things. But family shoots and Sr pics pay most of her bills.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Overread said:


> Any advertising you take on ideally wants to be something you can track. You want to be able, at the end of the year, to sit back and review who hired you and why. That way you can tell if people are seeing your ads and make choices in the long term as to if advertising in a specific spot is helping you or just a cost that isn't even covering itself. It's very valuable information.
> 
> Also have a look at who else advertises with them and the quality of work they produce; if you see all top pros advertising there then chances are its going to be worth it if you can compete with them; if you see all beginners with not very serious photos it might be that its not a very good advertising spot (otherwise why wouldn't other serious pros advertise there); and if no one is advertising there that's another signal.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I will have to think about it some more. Not 100% sure if I should be a AEF member or not. If I can do like you suggested, find a copy of their magazine and view the contents that would be the first step.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> You're getting the cart before the horse. You need to get better photos before you make your site live and 'your friends start sharing it like wildfire.' You get ONE chance to make a good impression. One. Do not waste it with photos of messy leadropes, horses with unkempt coats, and mediocre shots anyone with a cell phone can take. Get your portfolio made, do some sessions for free to get access to good locations and good horses, go to some art shows, and sell some pieces and get feedback before you do a hard release and start advertising. You can certainly sell prints before you advertise and book sessions on your site-- I'd recommend doing just that. Print up some prints, and see who they sell to. Go as a vendor to some horse shows with your prints. Are horse people buying them? Now go to some regular art markets-- if you sell better at those, then maybe that's your niche. You seem to want to do more 'art shots' than good horse photography, so the market you have in mind may not be the one to use.
> 
> I'm not trying to be mean. I'm not trying to squash your dream. I hope you do very well, but you need to get everything in place before you jump in with both feet. I don't think you have any idea of what horse people are looking for in photography or videography.


I am going to take your previous advice and offer to shoot for free for the next bit just to get my portfolio stronger. But like you suggested, they don't get all the photos for free, they get say 3 and the rest comes at a cost. I do have my trainer lined up who I will be doing a session with and even though I have yet to receive a single reply in the 6 weeks of posting, I still have ads up on Kijijii offering free shoots. 

I might touched base with barns instead. I am almost certain that I will have a lot better responses if I was to call up boarding barns in my area offering to spend a day there and take pictures of everyone's horses for free and provide each person with 3 photos. There are a lot of boarding barns where I live. I could even touch base with English ones as well with show horses. I still have a good 1.5 months before temps start to drop so I am going to make the most of it. 

I don't think releasing my site right now is a bad idea. Have to keep in mind that I will and have gotten better. At least get my name out there for the time being.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Hoofpic said:


> I might touched base with barns instead. I am almost certain that I will have a lot better responses if I was to call up boarding barns in my area offering to spend a day there and take pictures of everyone's horses for free and provide each person with 3 photos. .


I think that is a wonderful idea. Just send an information sheet ahead of time that horses need to be clean and groomed, and make sure they have an area with good lighting and a nice background for your shots-- an arena with a nice fence and no junk sitting in the background, a pasture with some autumn trees behind the horses, etc. Make sure your area has good light all day, or see when you'll need to be there to capture the best light. I hope you share some of the shots you take.

* one tip: have a nice leather halter and/or a bridle that you take with you to shoots. You'd be amazed at the people who expect a professional photo of their horse and then show up with a ratty nylon halter that doesn't fit, or a bridle with a $5 nickel curb bit.... editing out a lead rope is a lot easier than editing out the entire halter, so use yours if theirs is ugly. 

Find out, if you can, what kinds of horses you will be shooting and what the owners want. Do they want conformation shots? Fun candid shots sitting on the horse bareback in the light of the setting sun? Shots of the horse galloping in the pasture? For ease of your first several shoots, you may want to shoot portraits (head shots) and/or conformation shots with or without the rider. It will allow you to set up your equipment in one area and shoot most of the day without wasting a ton of time on difficult shots that are a lot harder to get to turn out. Can you get some conformation shots/headshots of your own horses for critique? 

Print out a quick cheat-sheet if you want on ideal conformation photos for types of horses-- english horses are usually shown in a snaffle or leather halter and all four legs are visible. Western horses in a snug western-style show halter or curb bridle stood square. Gaited horses are usually square or parked, depending on breed. Also, are you shooting people too, or just the horse? Getting a person AND a horse to both look great in the same shot can be a lot harder, so take that into account. If you do shoot people, get model releases to put those photos on your website.

HAVE AN ASSISTANT! You need someone with horse experience to help get ears up and expression. That person should be armed with a plastic bag on a stick, a shaker can with some pebbles in it, an umbrella, a squeaky dog toy, a ball to toss and roll, and a bucket with grain in it at the very least. There's nothing worse than trying to take photos of horses and you can't get their ears up. The person you have help you should know enough about horses to use only what is needed to get expression, and not scare the horse so he moves or looks wild-eyed. There's a fine art to it, so when you find such a person, treat them like gold and feed them well


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Behind the Bit: Conformation photos: Tips and tricks

This is a good article, and the links at the bottom are even better. If you can get some good shots that make regular horses look like a million bucks, you will have all the bookings you can handle


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

How nice of you , Silver Maple, to take the time to post these!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> I think that is a wonderful idea. Just send an information sheet ahead of time that horses need to be clean and groomed, and make sure they have an area with good lighting and a nice background for your shots-- an arena with a nice fence and no junk sitting in the background, a pasture with some autumn trees behind the horses, etc. Make sure your area has good light all day, or see when you'll need to be there to capture the best light. I hope you share some of the shots you take.


Thanks. Should I create an info sheet and mention only 3 free photos per person? Then the rest is at a price (which would be my online store prices).



> * one tip: have a nice leather halter and/or a bridle that you take with you to shoots. You'd be amazed at the people who expect a professional photo of their horse and then show up with a ratty nylon halter that doesn't fit, or a bridle with a $5 nickel curb bit.... editing out a lead rope is a lot easier than editing out the entire halter, so use yours if theirs is ugly.


Interesting thanks, never thought of this. What if the halter or bridle doesn't fit the horse?



> Find out, if you can, what kinds of horses you will be shooting and what the owners want. Do they want conformation shots? Fun candid shots sitting on the horse bareback in the light of the setting sun? Shots of the horse galloping in the pasture? For ease of your first several shoots, you may want to shoot portraits (head shots) and/or conformation shots with or without the rider. It will allow you to set up your equipment in one area and shoot most of the day without wasting a ton of time on difficult shots that are a lot harder to get to turn out. Can you get some conformation shots/headshots of your own horses for critique?


This is something that I've been about to ask. When doing portraiture sessions, should I be asking the owners/client what kind of shots they want and cater to what they want? Or direct them in how I will take my shots and give them orders in how they and their horse are positioned, doing what, etc? (aka like modelling in a studio), the photographer always gives orders to the model in their posture, positioning, what direction they face, etc. I want to know this before I go into my first one.

[/QUOTE]
Print out a quick cheat-sheet if you want on ideal conformation photos for types of horses-- english horses are usually shown in a snaffle or leather halter and all four legs are visible. Western horses in a snug western-style show halter or curb bridle stood square. Gaited horses are usually square or parked, depending on breed. Also, are you shooting people too, or just the horse? Getting a person AND a horse to both look great in the same shot can be a lot harder, so take that into account. If you do shoot people, get model releases to put those photos on your website.

Thanks. Good idea about the quick cheat sheet.

Yes I have a model release, but I called it horse and rider release. 

Should I need one for random photos that I take of peoples horses and animals? Should I be asking for their permission to sell my photos that I took of their animals?



> HAVE AN ASSISTANT! You need someone with horse experience to help get ears up and expression. That person should be armed with a plastic bag on a stick, a shaker can with some pebbles in it, an umbrella, a squeaky dog toy, a ball to toss and roll, and a bucket with grain in it at the very least. There's nothing worse than trying to take photos of horses and you can't get their ears up. The person you have help you should know enough about horses to use only what is needed to get expression, and not scare the horse so he moves or looks wild-eyed. There's a fine art to it, so when you find such a person, treat them like gold and feed them well


I am actually in the works of having one but I will most likely only bring them to shows, I will have to see. Having an assistant really helps. They can help me carry my gear, pass me what I need, handle any papers and if I am doing a show, can update and work my shot list, any forms needing to be signed by riders, etc. I can then spend my time focusing on just shooting and preparing my scenery, backgrounds, subjects, etc.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Regarding the halter/bridle, normal horse size fits the majority of horses. The ones it doesn't fit, those people usually have their own stuff, since nothing else fits. For example, I have a nice black leather halter for my gelding who wears a draft-size halter. I have only used it in case of emergency when I couldn't find one of my normal halters in a pinch. 

Regarding giving or taking "orders," I say neither. Meet with your clients beforehand and discuss with them what kind of shots they would like. Then, during the shoot, you can direct them as needed.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> I am actually in the works of having one but I will most likely only bring them to shows, I will have to see. Having an assistant really helps. They can help me carry my gear, pass me what I need, handle any papers and if I am doing a show, can update and work my shot list, any forms needing to be signed by riders, etc. I can then spend my time focusing on just shooting and preparing my scenery, backgrounds, subjects, etc.


Now go back and read what @SilverMaple said about the duties of an assistant.....you WILL NOT need that sort of person at a show, unless you are doing prize givings....you REALLY need them when shooting portrait shots to get the right ears up and alert look.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Now go back and read what @SilverMaple said about the duties of an assistant.....you WILL NOT need that sort of person at a show, unless you are doing prize givings....you REALLY need them when shooting portrait shots to get the right ears up and alert look.


Yes I am aware of that, but I will need to find out what I should be paying my assistant as well.

SilverMaple, let me ask you, do you think I should have an assistant for every one of my portraiture sessions?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Regarding the halter/bridle, normal horse size fits the majority of horses. The ones it doesn't fit, those people usually have their own stuff, since nothing else fits. For example, I have a nice black leather halter for my gelding who wears a draft-size halter. I have only used it in case of emergency when I couldn't find one of my normal halters in a pinch.
> 
> Regarding giving or taking "orders," I say neither. Meet with your clients beforehand and discuss with them what kind of shots they would like. Then, during the shoot, you can direct them as needed.


Thanks, that's what I was thinking too. Discuss with them on what they want but don't let them dictate what kind of shots are done, that is my job. I need to listen to what they want done and I go about it in the way I find is best.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Website is good to go, I took a bunch of self portraits tonight and added them to my "meet Steven" page. My friend couldn't make it out tonight take photos of me shooting so I did it myself, but it was with cattle somewhere close to home. 

I will do some more tomorrow at the barn and with Fly and other horses. I will get those up and then my new script for the site when that's ready and one of my friends is going to do the SEO for my site once I have all the written script finalized, I will forward it off to her to get started on. She will also do my Google Analytics and back end etc (way out of my league, SEO isn't my forte).

In the meantime a few more things that I will be adding over the next few days.

1) Still in the works of finding a freelance makeup artist who would like to work with me
2) Have to upload photos to my Instagram. I am not at all an Instagram fan but it's a must for photographers.
3) Will be setting up an an optional survey through Survey Monkey, as well as an automated thank you and optional survey that goes out to everyone who buys anything from my store or uses my services.
4) Still considering having a mailing list newsletter. Thoughts on this anyone? Remember, from my thorough research a ton of equine photographers have blogs on their sites and each time they post photos from a job, they post it in a blog format. I am not going with a blog on my site so I need something to make up for my lack of a blog. Newsletter would do the trick.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hoofpic said:


> I am offering it because I would rather have people know that I can do it than not.


OK. My honest opinion, seeing that vid, is that you're posting it on your site because it's your best work. Therefore I would not book you.



> I still believe those images are nice photos.


See above. If you're showing me 'nice' as an eg of your best work...



> Yes and I can perform to my ability.


So can I. 



> After doing some research, those horses were not wildies.


Probably a good move to do the research *before* you put them up. And get owner's permission before posting people's horses & properties.



> Video is something that I won't work for free to do. Once I get some samples up that I created from scratch you will see what I mean. ...
> No it's not uncommon and they will still charge a big price for full day rate.


I am seeing what YOU mean. You are totally missing the point of what I & others are saying though. 

Anyway, it doesn't matter to me. I'm only spending my time looking at your work & giving you my opinion for your benefit. I've seen enough to decide it wouldn't be to my benefit.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

"This is something that I've been about to ask. When doing portraiture sessions, should I be asking the owners/client what kind of shots they want and cater to what they want? Or direct them in how I will take my shots and give them orders in how they and their horse are positioned, doing what, etc? (aka like modelling in a studio), the photographer always gives orders to the model in their posture, positioning, what direction they face, etc. I want to know this before I go into my first one."

THIS is why everyone keeps saying(Over and Over) ,"Hoofpic, you need to study, and really KNOW the horses, disciplines, tack....etc." THIS. RIGHT HERE.

YOU ARE SELLING YOURSELF AS THE EXPERT. I suppose you need to find a few horse photographers, and go shadow them. 

And no, please do not ask them what they want, then do something else. (What YOU want) If you are going to improve on what they asked, then make a BETTER suggestion....If, say, they want a tree in the background, but it sticks out of the horse's back, find a better way to use the tree, but explain to them WHY.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am going to try and put this in very basic terms.

1. You really need to know your subject. 

If someone asks you to come along and take pictures of their horse then you need to be able to look at that animal and assess its faults. Let's say it has a straight shoulder. You can give the appearance of a better shoulder by posing the animal the correct way. Ditto with other conformation faults. 
You are not going to fool those that do know horses but it will give the illusion of the horse being better in that area in the picture. 

I don't think you would have the knowledge to pick out the faults and improve on them.

2. Action shots.

These are a lot easier with the fast frame on cameras but you need to be in the right position to get them. Again, you need to know what people are talking about when asking for you to go to a certain type of fence to take it. 

3. Art pictures. 

These are really for the photographer's satisfaction and fun. Clients do not want a picture of a horse's eye or its hock or tail, they want a portrait. 

4. Being able to recognise things like a dirty mark, straw marks (where the hair is sticking up) the ability to see what would make a good background, something dark for a light coloured horse and light for a dark horse, no railings or poles in the way. 

All the above takes experience and above all practise, learning the skills needed for getting it right. I am not a photographer, I have a good camera, I generally have it on auto and press the button, I would consider most of my pictures of horses to be a lot better to the eye than yours purely because I know my subject. I have no doubt that technically you could fault them but not many people have that knowledge.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

I really can't stress knowing the disciplines enough. I get you've only been to a couple of shows. But sometimes exhibitors in the class will want radically different images. A GREAT photographer will be able to recognize, PURELY based on tack and horse's way of going, what each exhibitor would want. Here are three examples:

Two different shows, but radically different desires:

Me:









My best friend:









Same show, same class (different days unfotunately):

Me:









My best friend:









Same show, same class, same day, same photographer:

Me:









My best friend:









If she had gotten mainly pictures of how Izzie is in her pictures, she wouldn't buy any. And vice versa. Her discipline likes the high knees. Mine wants nice stride length when in a lengthened gait. As a photographer you MUST learn the different styles inside and out and be able to give the customers exactly what they want. Or you will not sell very many images.

And why the need to add so many images of yourself? A couple would have been PLENTY. How many you have now is overkill.


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Now go back and read what @SilverMaple said about the duties of an assistant.....you WILL NOT need that sort of person at a show, unless you are doing prize givings....you REALLY need them when shooting portrait shots to get the right ears up and alert look.


Assistants depend greatly on the situation.

At a formal portrait setting I'd be expecting an assistant to either be working with the horse directly or aiding the horse handler; or to be aiding you with lighting setup. I say either on assumption that you only have the one. You want someone who can handle a horse well because the owner might not know how to stand/pose/handle or even get the horse facing the right way for the shot. This person wants to know how to pose a horse as well as you can or at least be able to move a horse to allow you to direct the pose.
Lighting is secondary, important, but its an area where the assistant might have to shift to once the horse is in position and the owner/handler can shift to taking over. 

At a competitive event I'd expect them to be handling the market side of things. Taking names, orders, giving out details, getting emails. If you can print on-site then I'd expect them to run that side of things; getting your memory card; prepping and selling the photos.


Of course most assistants are those in training in some form; so chances are you want to take one on who has a bit more experience for your first. That way you can more easily set them up and let them do their thing whilst you do yours' perhaps taking on a second in an apprentice type situation so that you've not got as heavy a financial burdon; but you're training someone else up and have another pair of hands to work. 





It really depends; but honestly I would say that for most event shoots you shouldn't need someone to pass you the camera; you'll either have only the one or you'll have two cameras ready to go and just swap from the bag at your feet.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Hoofpic said:


> Yes I am aware of that, but I will need to find out what I should be paying my assistant as well.
> 
> SilverMaple, let me ask you, do you think I should have an assistant for every one of my portraiture sessions?


YES! A good assistant can make all the difference between a session where the purchaser loves nearly every shot, and one where her horse looks like a donkey and she doesn't buy anything. A good assistant for portrait shots is essential--- not only for getting ears up, but for noticing things you won't see through the lens-- a fly on the horse's blaze, a dog pooping in the background, the horse standing in a hole or slightly crooked, or with his weight unbalanced. He/she can hold the reflector or flash if you use one, and help the horse's handler (usually the owner) know where to stand so she's back far enough to crop out. Your assistant needs to have horse knowledge as well as photographic skill so she can 'see' the image for you. 

Pay your assistant whatever he/she wants. It's worth it. An hourly wage plus any gas and food expenses at the very least.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

loosie said:


> OK. My honest opinion, seeing that vid, is that you're posting it on your site because it's your best work. Therefore I would not book you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a model release form that I will get people to sign for portraiture sessions.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> "This is something that I've been about to ask. When doing portraiture sessions, should I be asking the owners/client what kind of shots they want and cater to what they want? Or direct them in how I will take my shots and give them orders in how they and their horse are positioned, doing what, etc? (aka like modelling in a studio), the photographer always gives orders to the model in their posture, positioning, what direction they face, etc. I want to know this before I go into my first one."
> 
> THIS is why everyone keeps saying(Over and Over) ,"Hoofpic, you need to study, and really KNOW the horses, disciplines, tack....etc." THIS. RIGHT HERE.
> 
> ...


Thanks. That's what I was thinking too. Sit down with them and listen to what they are wanting done and make suggestions on how I can improve on it.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Overread said:


> Assistants depend greatly on the situation.
> 
> At a formal portrait setting I'd be expecting an assistant to either be working with the horse directly or aiding the horse handler; or to be aiding you with lighting setup. I say either on assumption that you only have the one. You want someone who can handle a horse well because the owner might not know how to stand/pose/handle or even get the horse facing the right way for the shot. This person wants to know how to pose a horse as well as you can or at least be able to move a horse to allow you to direct the pose.
> Lighting is secondary, important, but its an area where the assistant might have to shift to once the horse is in position and the owner/handler can shift to taking over.


Good point, so the assistant not only has to have a photography background but experience handling horses.



> At a competitive event I'd expect them to be handling the market side of things. Taking names, orders, giving out details, getting emails. If you can print on-site then I'd expect them to run that side of things; getting your memory card; prepping and selling the photos.


This is what I was thinking because when you get to busy shows, it's a lot of work keeping track of all the riders, who is who, who is riding which horses, who is related, etc.



> Of course most assistants are those in training in some form; so chances are you want to take one on who has a bit more experience for your first. That way you can more easily set them up and let them do their thing whilst you do yours' perhaps taking on a second in an apprentice type situation so that you've not got as heavy a financial burdon; but you're training someone else up and have another pair of hands to work.


Good point.




> It really depends; but honestly I would say that for most event shoots you shouldn't need someone to pass you the camera; you'll either have only the one or you'll have two cameras ready to go and just swap from the bag at your feet.


I will eventually get a second body (perhaps even this week as I want the same body and mine is discontinued) (even if it's not used in some situations, it will serve as a backup) because any photographer of any genre should always have a backup, same with memory cards (which I do have and carry with him), because if a camera was to go kaput, if you don't have a backup then you can't continue on.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I'd start with basic portraiture. Maybe just head shots to make it easier on yourself. Or head shots and conformation (breed suitable). Advertise your flyer as such.

Since you are learning how to really see horses and their faults, I'd suggest your assistant be well-versed in horses to help you out. Remember that your subjects expect you to be the expert and know how to minimize their horse's faults. They know he's got a big head and a pig eye, or that his shoulder is too straight or he's sickle-hocked. Do YOU know how to position the horse and shoot these photos so those faults aren't as noticeable? 

If you have friends with horses, I'd suggest doing a 'free photo fun day' with your friends. It will give you a great idea of what you still need to work on, how to use your assistant, etc. And better to giggle at the photos of your friend's big rope horse looking like a doofus than a client's horse!


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## Overread (Mar 7, 2015)

Honestly its going to be rarer to find a horse person with photography lighting experience. I'd go for a horse person first for an assistant. An experienced horse handler would be ideal as then you can worry about the camera and they about the horse. They'll soon pick up on posing and lighting, and its far easier to pick up on those than subtle horse body language or body conformations. 

It also means they'll have no problem working in and around a horse or even horses if the shot is going to have more than one.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Some tips for nice photos:

- stand back and zoom in rather than standing close. It helps prevent distortion where the horse's head looks too large or his butt too small. Cropping is your friend, but make sure the horizon line is level!!

- use distortion and perspective to your advantage to help hide flaws. Angle the horse slightly away from you if he has a weedy hindquarter to make his rear look larger. It will still look like a side-on conformation shot, but he'll look a lot more balanced. A horse with a swayback, short back, long back, or otherwise unattractive topline can look like a million bucks at a 3/4 angle from either front or rear. Learn how to place hooves to minimize pigeon toes, toeing out, cowhocks, etc. Also remember that for some breeds, cowhocks are desirable and should be shown (some draft breeds). 

Google photos of Hollywood Dun It. Notice how few are direct conformation side shots? There's a reason his side shots were usually taken with a saddle and/or a slide stop, and his conformation photos are done at an angle to hide that back, or with someone standing ahead of him. Offspring with good backs will nearly always use a direct side-on shot to advertise that fact, as many of his colts inherited his wonky back. 

- if his head is too big, don't shoot the head in profile-- an angle will be much more flattering. If his head is gorgeous, show it off. A big-headed horse looks a lot better in a wide bridle and curb bit than he will in a narrow bridle and snaffle. There's a reason my old rope horse was photographed primarily in a wide, scalloped bridle with a big silver buckle and a silver spade bit.  (I will post later when I get home to get those photos off my computer if you want to see what a difference that makes)

- horses, like people, have a 'better side'. Learn to find which side that is. 

- The footing makes a huge difference. Deep sand won't have any horse standing properly. Firm footing is best. If the front of the horse is slightly uphill, he'll look much better than if his front is standing lower. 

- You can hide a weird back with a saddle. Just make sure it's properly placed, clean, and the saddle pad is centered. How the reins are placed over the neck/shoulder can really affect how the horse looks. Learn what shows off the horse best. That often varies between a western horse and an english horse. Conformation shots with western horses usually have the reins over the saddle/neck. English horses will often have the handler holding the rein out of the photo. Some breeds shown in double bridles or pelhams will have one rein over the neck, and one off-camera held by the handler. 

- Some horses look better backed into a proper stance. Others look awful this way and need to be walked forward. If you can't see the differences, make sure your assistant can. 

- how the mane lays can make or break a photo. If it's short and blowing in the wind, the horse can look like he has a very thick neck. If he has a ewe neck and a short mane, then your assistant will be worth his weight in gold to get that horse to turn his head, or arch his neck and look at something lower on the ground to minimize it. A lot of mane can make the neck look short. You may want to shoot from the opposite side for a cleaner appearance. In the same vein, a lot of mane can hide an ugly neck or blow forward and camouflage a roman nose or big ears. Use what you have.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

What a bunch of great advice @SilverMaple, very generous of you to share all those tips. I'm thinking this is where some time in shadowing a horse photographer, or having an experienced assistant will be invaluable, because you don't develop that sort of eye without practice.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I heard a photographer talking to a gal at a show, and he said: "Someone with a good eye who knows horses can take a picture with a cell phone that will be better than a great photographer with a Hasselblad who doesn't know horses. If you want to take good photos of horses, learn what a good horse looks like, and then learn how to make an average horse look good and a poor horse look better than average."


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> I heard a photographer talking to a gal at a show, and he said: "Someone with a good eye who knows horses can take a picture with a cell phone that will be better than a great photographer with a Hasselblad who doesn't know horses. If you want to take good photos of horses, learn what a good horse looks like, and then learn how to make an average horse look good and a poor horse look better than average."


LOVE this, would give it a whole bunch of likes and make it a sticky if I could..


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> YES! A good assistant can make all the difference between a session where the purchaser loves nearly every shot, and one where her horse looks like a donkey and she doesn't buy anything. A good assistant for portrait shots is essential--- not only for getting ears up, but for noticing things you won't see through the lens-- a fly on the horse's blaze, a dog pooping in the background, the horse standing in a hole or slightly crooked, or with his weight unbalanced. He/she can hold the reflector or flash if you use one, and help the horse's handler (usually the owner) know where to stand so she's back far enough to crop out. Your assistant needs to have horse knowledge as well as photographic skill so she can 'see' the image for you.
> 
> Pay your assistant whatever he/she wants. It's worth it. An hourly wage plus any gas and food expenses at the very least.


Okay thanks. So I have one big question, do I immediately start with an assistant right from the get go? I think I should.

From my thorough research of other equine photographers, I haven't come across one yet who has an assistant. Do you think it's mainly due to them having the extra expense of paying them?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

How many have you talked to? I've only seen one who didn't have an assistant, and that was David Stoecklein, when he came to shoot at a ranch I worked at, but he shot photos of us galloping around all day. If he had been doing portraits of horses, he'd have brought one. It's nearly impossible to get good portrait shots of horses without an assistant. You can probably do it IF the horse's handler knows what he/she is doing and how to help you, but a lot of handlers won't. 

Nearly all portrait photographers have an assistant, whether they are shooting dogs, horses, or people. They don't advertise the fact, they just have someone who comes with them. 

If you don't think you need one, do some shots of your horses and friends' horses without one. See if you are happy with the results. Post the shots you think are best here or PM me and I'd be glad to go over them with you and give opinions.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> I'd start with basic portraiture. Maybe just head shots to make it easier on yourself. Or head shots and conformation (breed suitable). Advertise your flyer as such.
> 
> Since you are learning how to really see horses and their faults, I'd suggest your assistant be well-versed in horses to help you out. Remember that your subjects expect you to be the expert and know how to minimize their horse's faults. They know he's got a big head and a pig eye, or that his shoulder is too straight or he's sickle-hocked. Do YOU know how to position the horse and shoot these photos so those faults aren't as noticeable?
> 
> If you have friends with horses, I'd suggest doing a 'free photo fun day' with your friends. It will give you a great idea of what you still need to work on, how to use your assistant, etc. And better to giggle at the photos of your friend's big rope horse looking like a doofus than a client's horse!


Thanks. When I head out to do these small free shoots, there will be no way that I can bring an assistant with me so I most likely won't be able to start using one until I have paid shoots. 

I mean I can try, but it's going to get expensive real quick.

I will start looking for candidates right now, never hurts to start early.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Overread said:


> Honestly its going to be rarer to find a horse person with photography lighting experience. I'd go for a horse person first for an assistant. An experienced horse handler would be ideal as then you can worry about the camera and they about the horse. They'll soon pick up on posing and lighting, and its far easier to pick up on those than subtle horse body language or body conformations.
> 
> It also means they'll have no problem working in and around a horse or even horses if the shot is going to have more than one.


Good point thanks. Find a horse person who knows how to handle horses effortlessly (this would include studs). I can easily teach them about lighting and photography, etc.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Do you know someone who has good shots of their own horses on their FB pages or websites that they took themselves? If so, their eye is probably well on the way to being of assistance to you. A family member who is good with horses? Friends? Maybe you can get someone to come help for a few hours if you offer to do a portrait session for their horses in exchange. Or a lot of people will work all day happily for a case of beer and a pizza. Don't discount college kids on horse programs if there is such a thing in your area-- it may be a ready source of people who would gladly spend a few hours with horses in exchange for a few bucks. 

You're between a rock and a hard place. A good assistant will go a long way toward getting you the type of shots that will get your work sold and your reputation established. You really can't afford not to have a good one when you're shooting for money. Try trading work with friends, bartering, etc. if financially it isn't feasible.

Where are you located? If you're anywhere near Iowa, I'd be glad to come help you out for a day.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> Do you know someone who has good shots of their own horses on their FB pages or websites that they took themselves? If so, their eye is probably well on the way to being of assistance to you. A family member who is good with horses? Friends? Maybe you can get someone to come help for a few hours if you offer to do a portrait session for their horses in exchange. Or a lot of people will work all day happily for a case of beer and a pizza. Don't discount college kids on horse programs if there is such a thing in your area-- it may be a ready source of people who would gladly spend a few hours with horses in exchange for a few bucks.
> 
> You're between a rock and a hard place. A good assistant will go a long way toward getting you the type of shots that will get your work sold and your reputation established. You really can't afford not to have a good one when you're shooting for money. Try trading work with friends, bartering, etc. if financially it isn't feasible.
> 
> Where are you located? If you're anywhere near Iowa, I'd be glad to come help you out for a day.


I am completely sold on having an assistant, I always was for shows and now am for portraiture as well. I posted on my Facebook page (personal one) looking for names and I should be able to find someone. There are a lot of horsey people here where I live.

Unfortunately most of the people that I know don't have good photos of their own horses.

I am in Calgary, AB.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Well, that's a bit far unless you're covering airfare


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I was looking at your site @Hoofpic, and I have a question....Is this a self portrait?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

OK, the promised photos of how a bridle and head position makes a difference (bear with me, these are old and scanned shots from prints) 

His head actually looks normal and even handsome in the top two shots. The position of his head when the picture was snapped, along with the style of the bridle, works with a large, rather unattractive head. 

















Not so much for this next one... bad angle, bridle doesn't set off his head as much.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Honestly, have you looked into being mentored by a photographer in the profession who can show you the ropes? Offer to be THEIR assistant weekends and evenings.... preferably out of your region so you wouldn't be competitors later? See some of their techniques, what sells, how they market.... etc. market research.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I'm pretty excited, just ordered a second body today, (same one as the one I have now). My 70-200 will live on one permanently and the other will be for rotation of my other lenses. No more constantly switching lenses.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> I was looking at your site @Hoofpic, and I have a question....Is this a self portrait?
> 
> View attachment 923426


No one of the guys at the BBQ took that with my camera when I tried roping.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dehda01 said:


> Honestly, have you looked into being mentored by a photographer in the profession who can show you the ropes? Offer to be THEIR assistant weekends and evenings.... preferably out of your region so you wouldn't be competitors later? See some of their techniques, what sells, how they market.... etc. market research.


Yes I have but no luck yet. I was on Facebook one night and got in touch with a photographer about 6 weeks ago who said that she knew a lady who runs and coordinates the top pros who shoot at Spruce Meadows and she did get me in touch with her. I added her on Facebook, I told her what I was looking for and she said that she would love to get me set up with some of her pros that she knows but nothing has happened so I am moving on.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> No one of the guys at the BBQ took that with my camera when I tried roping.


Ahh, so not your work then :think:


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Ahh, so not your work then :think:


I'm only using it as a display photo for that event, he said I could have it and put it on my site. I got permission so I don't see what the issue is.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> I don't see what the issue is.


Cool


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The issue is if that photo is on your site advertising your work and you didn't take the picture.... whether it was your camera and you have permission is beside the point. You're misrepresenting someone else's work as yours by virtue of it being on your site, and that is unforgivable in the art world. Sorry. Not cool.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> The issue is if that photo is on your site advertising your work and you didn't take the picture.... whether it was your camera and you have permission is beside the point. You're misrepresenting someone else's work as yours by virtue of it being on your site, and that is unforgivable in the art world. Sorry. Not cool.


Oh I see. Well that wasn't my intention, I just wanted to display it as a thumbnail. I will put another one up.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Sigh-- intentional or not, that's a red flag that you have so much to learn about the art/photography/marketing field that you are NOWHERE near ready to do this as a business. Not even close. There's a lot more to it than putting pictures on the internet. I'd look into a community college for some basic business courses-- business accounting, business ethics, marketing and advertising 101, basic graphic design, etc. Take a couple of years and learn how to operate a successful company. Use that time to work on your horse knowledge, take more photos, get critiques, and learn. You want everything 'right now' and you're nowhere near ready for that. It will only lead to frustration and failure.

Get your groundwork and basics in place first-- horse knowledge, business acumen, a strong portfolio, a nest egg to spend that first year when you'll have expense after expense and not a lot of income, get your insurance lined up, get some repeat clients who like and recommend your work -- THEN look at making this a business, even if it's still part-time, all those things need to be in place for you to have any chance of success. Anyone can take a photo. Not everyone is willing to put in the work to take GOOD photos people will buy, and do the legwork part of running a business. Without that, you have no chance.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> Sigh-- intentional or not, that's a red flag that you have so much to learn about the art/photography/marketing field that you are NOWHERE near ready to do this as a business. Not even close. There's a lot more to it than putting pictures on the internet. I'd look into a community college for some basic business courses-- business accounting, business ethics, marketing and advertising 101, basic graphic design, etc. Take a couple of years and learn how to operate a successful company. Use that time to work on your horse knowledge, take more photos, get critiques, and learn. You want everything 'right now' and you're nowhere near ready for that. It will only lead to frustration and failure.
> 
> Get your groundwork and basics in place first-- horse knowledge, business acumen, a strong portfolio, a nest egg to spend that first year when you'll have expense after expense and not a lot of income, get your insurance lined up -- THEN look at making this a business.


I have a taken business admin from ways back, and have experience in graphic design as this was actually what I did for a few years when I was out of college. Right out of high school, my passion was graphic design and I jumped into a college course. I'm very familiar with marketing as a lot of my career employement has been working closely with marketing teams, design teams, etc. I've spent many years doing graphic freelance work on the side so I am very familiar with how a business works. The areas where I will need to reach out to others will be the accounting/bookkeeping side as well as SEO, advertising, etc.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> Sigh-- intentional or not, that's a red flag that you have so much to learn about the art/photography/marketing field that you are NOWHERE near ready to do this as a business. Not even close. There's a lot more to it than putting pictures on the internet. I'd look into a community college for some basic business courses-- business accounting, business ethics, marketing and advertising 101, basic graphic design, etc. Take a couple of years and learn how to operate a successful company. Use that time to work on your horse knowledge, take more photos, get critiques, and learn. You want everything 'right now' and you're nowhere near ready for that. It will only lead to frustration and failure.
> *
> Get your groundwork and basics in place first-- horse knowledge, business acumen, a strong portfolio, a nest egg to spend that first year when you'll have expense after expense and not a lot of income, get your insurance lined up -- THEN look at making this a business.*


This is such sensible advice, again thank you for sharing, many of us have felt this, but it is different coming from someone with the experience and knowledge to back it up. 

You need to make your mistakes when it is a hobby, not when it is a business!

By the way @Hoofpic, how is Fly?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Hoofpic said:


> I have a taken business admin from ways back, and have experience in graphic design as this was actually what I did for a few years when I was out of college. Right out of high school, my passion was graphic design and I jumped into a college course. I'm very familiar with marketing as a lot of my career employement has been working closely with marketing teams, design teams, etc. I've spent many years doing graphic freelance work on the side so I am very familiar with how a business works. The areas where I will need to reach out to others will be the accounting/bookkeeping side as well as SEO, advertising, etc.


So then why are you making novice mistakes and decisions that will undermine your potential business? Any freshman photography student knows you don't put someone else's photo up on your website, or put sub-par photos up as an indication of your best work. You are NOT READY. You are not familiar enough with how a business works if you don't have the knowledge of the subject you need to make your business successful, you don't have the money to hire an assistant, you haven't shadowed a good photographer, you aren't familiar with basic business ethics, etc.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I tried saying things clearly and politely the following quote also say it clearly but you just aren't getting the fact that you need way more experience of horses before anyone will pay you no matter how much business acumen you have. 



SilverMaple said:


> I heard a photographer talking to a gal at a show, and he said: "Someone with a good eye who knows horses can take a picture with a cell phone that will be better than a great photographer with a Hasselblad who doesn't know horses. If you want to take good photos of horses, learn what a good horse looks like, and then learn how to make an average horse look good and a poor horse look better than average."


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

Foxhunter said:


> I tried saying things clearly and politely the following quote also say it clearly but you just aren't getting the fact that you need way more experience of horses before anyone will pay you no matter how much business acumen you have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Totally posting this again so he reads it again.

You need to study more about horses. A love for them is just the start to become a photographer. You need to know as much as humanly possible about the different gaits, what each style wants. I posted earlier my examples, which was ignored (yes, I noticed it), and said WHY they were important. Yes, you've said Dressage and the like bores you. Here's a fun fact. If you're entire goal is to only shoot "exciting" events, you may not have as much business as you are predicting. You are too confident in yourself (actually, if I'm being honest, you're too cocky) and your abilities. If we hadn't already thought that before, we all realized it when you just figured you'd be able to walk out and take pictures of high class jumpers and give them exactly what they want without practice. That does NOT happen. PRACTICE makes perfect, and not even just that. PERFECT PRACTICE makes perfect.

You NEED to shadow others to get a feel for it. You're running headlong into this, and I imagine you'll post another thread in a months time about how you don't have any business and why doesn't anyone want to hire you. I'm on the show committee for my local club, and have say in many, many things there. If you approached me with your attitude and your eh images, I would turn you away. I wouldn't have faith in your abilities to take appropriate pictures of a Paso Fino in the corto, the Tennessee Walking Horse in the running walk, the carriage horses in their show trot, or the numerous different styles of what is classified as a Hunter horse here (flat work only.)

You. Do. Not. Have. Enough. Experience.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

SilverMaple said:


> So then why are you making novice mistakes and decisions that will undermine your potential business? Any freshman photography student knows you don't put someone else's photo up on your website, or put sub-par photos up as an indication of your best work. You are NOT READY. You are not familiar enough with how a business works if you don't have the knowledge of the subject you need to make your business successful, you don't have the money to hire an assistant, you haven't shadowed a good photographer, you aren't familiar with basic business ethics, etc.


I will be ready with more experience and that experience will always be an on-going thing.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Foxhunter said:


> I tried saying things clearly and politely the following quote also say it clearly but you just aren't getting the fact that you need way more experience of horses before anyone will pay you no matter how much business acumen you have.


Yes I saw that the first time it was posted and I am aware of it. I will be getting that experience. It will be a mix of me shadowing a pro, me getting more hands on experience out there and studying.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> I will be ready with more experience and that experience will always be an on-going thing.


Scratches head....I'll be ready to ride 3rd level, with more experience, maybe a better horse and a crapton of practice...

TODAY I am a training level rider, just paddling in the shallows of level one....

Now I guess that will go over your head, but the point is YOU ARE NOT READY NOW....chill, learn, grow, enjoy your hobby, THEN think about trying to sell your product.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

"Experience will be an ongoing thing."

Sorry, but that is so funny!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I give up.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> I give up.


You gave it a great try, you have given such great advice..


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

SilverMaple said:


> I give up.


Many have.


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## Tazzie (Nov 8, 2011)

SilverMaple said:


> I give up.


You've given wonderful advice too. Unfortunately, this is typical with this poster and advice given.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> Scratches head....I'll be ready to ride 3rd level, with more experience, maybe a better horse and a crapton of practice...
> 
> TODAY I am a training level rider, just paddling in the shallows of level one....
> 
> Now I guess that will go over your head, but the point is YOU ARE NOT READY NOW....chill, learn, grow, enjoy your hobby, THEN think about trying to sell your product.


And guess how you become ready?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> And guess how you become ready?


By knowing my limitations, practicing, taking feedback from my trainer. By NOT embarrassing myself by trying to ge something I am not.

You have a hobby, you are not ready for a business.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

SilverMaple said:


> I give up.


From a very small child I always loved taking on 'problem' animals. When someone said, "You cannot train that dog/pony to do something," I loved to prove them wrong. 

I would stick to it and work hard with that animal to achieve the desired result. I would refuse to give up. Usually persistence paid. Trial and error, gentle touch getting stronger to demanding, coaxing to bullying, learning patience and controlling frustration. 

I would watch others, see what they were achieving with their animals, if I liked what I saw I would ask "How?" then try that method. To a lot of extent it came naturally with me though I worked hard at always improving and adapting to each animal. 

I learned to accept criticism, corrections and to work on whatever. No one likes that but it is the only way to learn. 

Most of all I hated to give up - in this case I really feel that those who are trying to help by criticising Hoofpic's photographs are banging their head on a brick wall. 

As the saying goes, "There are none so blind as those that _will_ not see. 

I like to help people, I like to be able to teach - will I give up? I really feel I should in this case. Will I? Doubt it, still in old age I am a stubborn old woman.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

greentree said:


> "Experience will be an ongoing thing."
> 
> Sorry, but that is so funny!


I giggled at that too. And the 'I can work to my ability' which means...?? Forget the response to my last post, which made absolutely no sense either.

But the above reminded me of the saying 'Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want' which seems incredibly relevant here.

Hoofpic, if you have done business & marketing courses, i think you missed (or maybe only listened to lessons as you're listening to advice here) the bit about only having one chance to make a good impression. And in graphic design, if not elsewhere too, surely they would have impressed on you about plageurism.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Golden Horse said:


> By knowing my limitations, practicing, taking feedback from my trainer. By NOT embarrassing myself by trying to ge something I am not.
> 
> You have a hobby, you are not ready for a business.


You do not get better and improve by not getting your hands wet. Being embarrassed is something that everyone goes through in life. We all wouldn't be where we are today if we never went through those experiences because they are called life experiences.

I have no issues with people doubting me. In fact the more the better. When I have doubters it only makes me a much stronger person because it brings my motivation and drive to do what I have to do and learn what I need to learn to a whole new level. Not everyone is going to be your fan, and you will never be able to have everyone as your fan. But what you can do is take your evaluate your situation and make your current fans your biggest fans.

If there is one thing that this community should have already learned about me, it is that I was in the exact same shoes almost 3 years ago when everyone online (and in person too, trainers, heck even my current trainer and BO, etc) had doubt in me being seen as a horse person and whether I could communicate with a horse and be ready to work with them. Green + Green = Black and Blue. Sell my horse and buy a senior horse. Well what do you know, I am not the same person today. 

You know what? I know a local photographer (who I will be meeting up with on Tuesday) who shoots anything and everything as she doesn't have a target market. Her market is everyone. She shoots everything from cars to MMA fights to bike races to weddings to baby shows to graduations to horse jumping shows to equine portraiture and she isn't at all a horse person, doesn't know much about them and had no previous experience what so ever shooting them or knowing how those events were shot. She charged right from the get go and this was before she even had her first experience shooting many of these events. 

But she is extremely successful and you often have to book with her a month in advance. Why? Because she is very good at what she does and has that drive to passion to do what she has to do to get the job done in terms of making her customers satisfied. She will do what it takes to get her to that level to full fulling customers expectations. I admire her because she is one of the very rare photographers who targets every market out there. There is no job that she will turn down. If you told her that she can't shoot horses because she doesn't have years of experience shooting them, she doesn't know the industry, etc, she doesn't care. She will still do it because she is confident and she loves proving people wrong.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^did she get hugely successful by publicising her website before she was good?? By discounting virtually every piece of advice offered & not even thanking people for their wasted efforts??


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

greentree said:


> "Experience will be an ongoing thing."
> 
> Sorry, but that is so funny!


I re-worded it wrong, experience is something that you will have then all of a sudden not have. Is that better? Yes you miraculously loose experience in an instant just like that.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

loosie said:


> ^did she get hugely successful by publicising her website before she was good?? By discounting virtually every piece of advice offered & not even thanking people for their wasted efforts??


Actually believe it or not yes she did, she posted her website and work right from the get to and for one reason - to get her name out there. I've seen all her work and her work at the beginning was good but lots of room for improvement. But she still posted it to the public anyways, she didn't care. People hire her and gave her a chance and gradually her portfolio got significantly got better. She ignores lots of advice given to her because she goes with her gut feeling. If she was on here, she would get torn to shreds as she would probably read one comment before closing her account. She goes with what her heart tells her and aside from her close friends and family, she couldn't care less what others say to her. She is 10 times more blunt of a person than I am.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

Hoofpic said:


> loosie said:
> 
> 
> > ^did she get hugely successful by publicising her website before she was good?? By discounting virtually every piece of advice offered & not even thanking people for their wasted efforts??
> ...


You're not blunt at all. you have no idea how to take criticism or learn from what people are telling you. You jump from one thing to the next without actually getting any proper experience or training for it to make it worth your while. Just like you jumped into buying a horse and just like you jumped into this new job offer.

Take criticism and learn from it. None of what you have posted is worth buying, just like the countless amounts of people have told you. The people talking to you right now are your consumers they're horse people and they're the ones who are going to buy from you! And even then you don't listen to anything anyone tells you. 


These conversations are so pointless. Don't post looking for advice is you aren't going to take it.


Sorry to be "blunt" but this is just getting ridiculous.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Hoofpic said:


> Actually believe it or not yes she did, she posted her website and work right from the get to and for one reason - to get her name out there. I've seen all her work and her work at the beginning was good but lots of room for improvement. But she still posted it to the public anyways, she didn't care. People hire her and gave her a chance and gradually her portfolio got significantly got better. She ignores lots of advice given to her because she goes with her gut feeling. If she was on here, she would get torn to shreds as she would probably read one comment before closing her account. She goes with what her heart tells her and aside from her close friends and family, she couldn't care less what others say to her. She is 10 times more blunt of a person than I am.


I would say that she has a natural 'eye' for seeing what is good and what isn't. Again I looked through the pictures you have posted and to me not one is what I would call sellable. I was taking pictures like this when I had an old Brownie Box camera aged about 10. 

You might have come along with your riding but you are still a novice. I respect you for working at things when it doesn't come naturally to you but that is all.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Well bless you @Hoofpic, and good luck....

What you see as confidence others see as off putting arrogance.

See I have worked with arrogant and talented people, I give them a little leeway because of their talent.

I have worked with many people like you, going back to Fly, you bought the wrong horse....you are making it work, but you would have been a better rider by far with the right horse, bigger, experienced, just the right horse.

You are a legend in your own mind, bolstered by everyone liking your pics here, and it is easy to get carried away into thinking that you are better than you are, but you aren't any better than a happy snapper with some nice equipment.

Your problem is going to be manyfold, your people skills are lacking, your knowledge of what makes a good horse shot is very limited, you are carried away by the fact you like artistic, but not everyone does. Mostly though, misplaced arrogance will stop you growing, because you simply do not get that the feedback you have here has come from your potential clients, real photographers, and genuine horse people.

But hey, it's your life, enjoy it.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Hoofpic said:


> I re-worded it wrong, experience is something that you will have then all of a sudden not have. Is that better? Yes you miraculously loose experience in an instant just like that.


What? Am I exhausted from Irma and forgot what experience means? How does someone lose experience? Someone help an Irma victim out.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

updownrider said:


> What? Am I exhausted from Irma and forgot what experience means? How does someone lose experience? Someone help an Irma victim out.


No one loses experience, how do you lose experience? It is what it is .... Right?




Maybe he means skills, you can lose skills or they can grow rusty but you don't lose them Just.Like.That.... It happens over time...


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Shoot ( no pun intended) I thought I might be able to work 'tired brain' into our insurance claim. Almost sorry to see I do know the meaning of experience


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Here you go, @Hoofpic 


Oak Grove Farm and Equestrian Center
September 18 at 12:33pm · 
We are searching for someone to manage my sales horses, take sales videos and pictures, and coach our beginner lessons. Able to manage and run barn while I am away showing with our show groom.


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