# BITING at me when asking for forward movement under saddle



## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

Well assuming that nothing is wrong and that she is just being cranky I would personally let her mouth meet the toe of my boot. How does she go on the ground, does she give you any grief there? If she does then start there. I wouldn't tolerate any balking on the ground or any tail swishing or stomping. In the saddles the same thing. Some of them need a little tough love if they're just being cranky.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

Incitatus32 said:


> Well assuming that nothing is wrong and that she is just being cranky I would personally let her mouth meet the toe of my boot. How does she go on the ground, does she give you any grief there? If she does then start there. I wouldn't tolerate any balking on the ground or any tail swishing or stomping. In the saddles the same thing. Some of them need a little tough love if they're just being cranky.


 
I've been doing the toe to boot thing, hopefully it'll click with her soon. On the ground she is super in tuned, super respectful and always willing to move her feet with little effort. But as soon as I'm on her back that changes. I plan on continuing with ground work and maybe some tough love too. Biting is a pain, literally! hahah thankful she hasn't got me yet!


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

Has she been checked for ulcers by a vet? That's really a typical pain response.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

I have not checked for uclers. The only time she ever bites is when I'm on her. She doesn't bite when I touch her side or under her stomach like a horse with ulcers would. But if it does continue I will get it checked, thanks!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Try holding the outside rein braced against her neck. When she tries to bring her head around she'll run into resistance. I hope your are using a snaffle bit and not using a halter. If she bumps her mouth a few times, she'll quit.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Ulcers were the first thing that came to my mind as well. If that is cleared as an option then I like saddlebag's suggestion of keeping the outside rein fixed so that she can't bend her hea around enough to bite at you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

Well now I'm worried about ulcers. I will give the vet a call in the morning. Thanks!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Try my suggestion first, it won't cost you anything.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

I plan too! She is super green, so I expect some resistance. If it doesn't go away in time I will look into ulcers! Thanks y'all


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

maybe she is just not really clear on what "forward" means. could someone help you get her forward by using a flag or a lunge whip on the ground to reinforce your leg on cue to go forward. 

If she's just reaching around when you ask for a forward, with both legs, would it help to keep the outside rein tight, if you don't know which way she is going to reach around an bite, you cannot really be prepared to stop tha.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, agree with the first few responses(haven't read the rest). I'd first want to rule out pain, but ulcers are not at all the only reason she may be hurting. Back pain is high on the list & I'd want to get her checked out by a good chiro vet. I personally do that for all my horses these days before starting them, anyway. 

If pain/discomfort is definitely ruled out, then I'd just be making the Right things as easy & rewarding as possible, and punishing this behaviour. As little as possible, *but as firm as necessary to be effective. If you're having to continually 'remind' her, it's not that effective. Either with the toe of your boot, or a bracing(not pulling) rein, that causes *her* to bump *herself* in the mouth if she tries to swing around, or if on loose rein, a well timed 'bump' on the reins from you, as she *begins* to think about biting.


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## Lia and Midnight (Sep 22, 2014)

Incitatus32 said:


> Well assuming that nothing is wrong and that she is just being cranky I would personally let her mouth meet the toe of my boot. How does she go on the ground, does she give you any grief there? If she does then start there. I wouldn't tolerate any balking on the ground or any tail swishing or stomping. In the saddles the same thing. Some of them need a little tough love if they're just being cranky.


I'm with you. If my boy ever tried that, (which he has) I'd give him a little bump with my toe. not too hard, not hard enough so they know that you mean business.


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

In the first week of rides for my 3yo stallion, he tried to bite my toe. My instant reaction was to give him a boot in the face. Not enough to cause damage, but enough to cause a shock. Must have gotten him good in the teeth, because there have been no issues since.

Check for pain, then check she understands what you are asking of her. It does sound like a pain issue, though.


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

SarahStorms said:


> I have owned my horse for almost two weeks now. She is 9, but VERY green broke so I've started from the beginning with ground work. I do a mixture of different Natural Horsemanship methods, but Buck Brannaman's are my favorite. I have been getting on her bareback and every time I ask for forward movement she turns and try's to bite me. (pins her ears, stomps, whips tail, etc) Once she decides to go forward she is fine! She backs and bends, no problem! What steps should I take to break this biting habit? (she is healthy, she is sound and her back is not sore) Thanks in advance


A bit more information would be helpful in trying to find a solution to this problem. This horse may be saying, "I don't want to move with you on my back." On the other hand, she may be saying, "Why are you doing that to me; I don't understand what you want." For a rider to give directions and a horse to follow them, communication must be established. Both rider and horse must be speaking the same language.

When you say you are asking her to move forward do you mean at a walk? This is the beginning stage when working with a new horse. When you say she is green broke, do you mean she has been ridden and knows how to respond to a walk cue? If so, what walk cue was used? Are you using this same cue? Even if you are, you should realize that it may not be perceived as the same cue by the horse. Because riders are shaped differently, a cue used by one rider may be perceived by the horse as being spoken with the different dialect or accent when used by another rider.

If you ask this horse to walk when you are on the ground, does she walk readily? If so, what cue or cues do you use? When moving from working on the ground to working on her back, it helps to have a common means of communication. This is usually a verbal cue. If this cue is combined with other cues when on her back such as a squeeze and release of the legs, the verbal cue can later be eliminated. 

Besides simply asking a horse to do something, a rider should make it easy for the horse to comply. While a horse can generally walk beneath a rider sitting any old way, some horses feel insecure when something is on their back. The better the load is balanced, the easier it will be for the horse to move under the load.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

You could also try just sitting there and waiting. If she generally swings her head to the left to bite at you, instead of asking for forward movement, ask her to bring her nose around just a few inches to the right then immediately release the pressure. Repeat this gradually asking her to bring her head around a little farther each time. That is the goal, it doesn't have to happen right away. When her head is around far enough she should take a step as she will want the release. Instantly release and give her a rub. Your legs need to be quiet altho as you bring her nose around your body will come into play naturally. Continue to encourage the one step even tho she's bent. This exercise is also teaching her to be flexible.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> I've been doing the toe to boot thing, hopefully it'll click with her soon.





> If it doesn't go away in time I will look into ulcers! Thanks y'all


No! When you use any punishment to teach a horse to stop an unwanted behavior, particularly dangerous behaviors, you need to make it swift and severe enough to stop the behavior the very first time the horse tries it. If a horse takes more than 2 scoldings to stop any behavior, your method is ineffective and is probably doing more harm than good.

To barely punish a horse is classified as 'nagging' or 'pecking' at a horse. It does just the opposite of what you want it to do. It strengthens a horse's resole and makes the horse worse. When a horse is pecked at for any biting -- both on the ground and in the saddle -- you are just begging to have the horse savagely attack the offending leg that is bothering her.

I don't care if this horse has ulcers or some other physical problem where this bad habit is concerned. I doubt she has a reason and it is still not an excuse. I FIRST AND FOREMOST want the respect I deserve as her herd leader. 

Personally, I would probably take a pair of heavy leather reins and spank her HARD on the opposite side. I would get the 'forward' problem and the 'biting' problem fixed in less than 1 minute. 

Besides begging this horse to bite you hard, you are also creating a spoiled horse that does not maintain good forward impulsion. This is more serious problem to me than the biting. This leads to being barn sour and rearing. The more quickly you fix these problems, the better your entire training program will go. When you 'wait' for a horse to fix himself or get better gradually, you are playing a losing hand. JMHO Cherie


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Saddlebag said:


> Try holding the outside rein braced against her neck. When she tries to bring her head around she'll run into resistance. I hope your are using a snaffle bit and not using a halter. If she bumps her mouth a few times, she'll quit.


Spot on, SB. I see a lot of people needlessly walloping horses and getting into grumpiness contests with them when all that is needed is this simple, quiet, effective thing that doesn't give the horse the impression you're untrustworthy.

Had a similar issue with my riding horse when I initially saddle trained him (previously harness) - he was a dominant, 11yo stallion at the time who loved to work but hated all the peripheral stuff, and was (and is ) also the most ticklish horse I've ever met, so hated tacking up, and brushing over his ribs. Well, what he used to do is give me a Jaws impersonation whenever I was about to dismount. Many people would be tempted to use brute force and get into a contest with a horse over that kind of thing, but that simple trick SB is recommending here was all that was required, and as my relationship with the horse built, he stopped even attempting it. It's such a good policy to do the smallest, simplest, quietest thing you can to dissuade a horse from an unwanted behaviour, and focus on encouraging positive responses.

When he used to do his Jaws impersonation when I brushed an especially ticklish bit of his ribcage, I would respond by humorously offering the dandy brush for him to bite into (plus, I didn't brush him more than totally necessary in these spots - remember your mother and the hairbrush scraping over the edge of your ears, anybody?). He didn't think that was very pleasant on his tongue and seemed to think it was a strange suggestion. I talked to him a lot, and laughed a lot, and didn't get ruffled. A sense of humour is always an asset. I offered a stick for him to hold, and it turned into a party trick. He now carries sticks when I walk next to him between farm gates returning from trails.

It's funny how this horse, who was once so "Just give me my food and take me for my run and then leave me alone" is now coming up just to say hello from sometimes a fair distance away whenever I am working outdoors, and looking for friendly and respectful contact, and that nowadays he even enjoys being groomed. He used to be a horse who genuinely could not be trusted with people who didn't know him well. Now I can put visitors who have reasonable riding skills on him so they can ride around our farm tracks, and he's fine with that. Had he, on the other hand, been taken on by people who get rough with horses, it would have gone completely the other way. I've seen that sort of thing lots of times. So it's really nice to read these sensible low-key suggestions, thanks SB!


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

When I say she is green I mean she has only been ridden a few times. She doesnt know what to do and I believe that is reasons she acts that way. I've only been on her a handful of times and I'm doing my best with the biting thing and trying to do it the correct way so I dont cause a head shy horse.

Once she does move forward she walks with a purpose and is very forward! Its the just the getting there part. I've noticed if I click her forward she responds with less of a fight then If i squeeze with my butt, legs, etc. (which I am assuming how her previous owner asked her to move forward) She wants to please (which is very obvious on the ground). She is much better with a saddle compared to bare back. She backs beautifully and bends well also. Its just getting her to step out. 

She just hasnt been worked AT ALL in the past. That is not an excuse for her biting, but I honestly think she is confussed about whats being asked (with I need to work on also) And shes also been a pasture pony for years, so being worked is very new to her! 

When she does move forward I do what you said SB, I rub her, I praise her. Even if its just for a few steps. Then we relax, breathe and start over. She is getting better compared to our first ride, its a process.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

and before anyone says anything about the bare back riding please dont. I enjoy riding bareback and I like to connect with my horses that way. I do not bounce and I am a balanced, good rider. The previous owners just threw a saddle on her and thats it. 

I will have a vet out to elminiate pain, but she does not show signs at all other then the biting when I'm on her. One the ground she is the sweetest thing, you can touch, rub do whatever with. She runs to great me, she never shys from her halter or is hard to catch. She doesnt show signs of a sore back and is sound. But it would be good to have the chance of pain be eliminated.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

As Cherie said, I think you really should focus more on getting her to understand and comply with the "forward". this will make the other thing clear up. horses that don't want to go forward are hosts to all kinds of other problems. this is your key to getting her as sweet under saddle as she is without it.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> As Cherie said, I think you really should focus more on getting her to understand and comply with the "forward". this will make the other thing clear up. horses that don't want to go forward are hosts to all kinds of other problems. this is your key to getting her as sweet under saddle as she is without it.


Thanks Tinyliny, I will work on getting her understand what I am asking. I really think thats the true problem here. I appreciate all the help!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Agree with others. & it does now sound 'forward' and your cueing is the problem. She's just not understanding the squeeze. But she understands you 'clucking' her forward, so do that in conjunction with the squeeze & she'll link it. Or otherwise cause it to happen when you squeeze, such as a 'spank' with the reins. I use punishment very judiciously, sparingly, but I'd still be punishing the 'Bad' behaviour in this case, when it happens, and Cherie (as often) put it better than me re the nagging. ;-) In the words of Pink Floyd, 'One short, sharp shock & he'll never do it again' ;-)


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

loosie said:


> Agree with others. & it does now sound 'forward' and your cueing is the problem. She's just not understanding the squeeze. But she understands you 'clucking' her forward, so do that in conjunction with the squeeze & she'll link it. Or otherwise cause it to happen when you squeeze, such as a 'spank' with the reins. I use punishment very judiciously, sparingly, but I'd still be punishing the 'Bad' behaviour in this case, when it happens, and Cherie (as often) put it better than me re the nagging. ;-) In the words of Pink Floyd, 'One short, sharp shock & he'll never do it again' ;-)


Yeah, if you do it, do it right.. in every matter of training. They're simple creatures, really and they don't make it their life mission to make us frustrated!

However, when Dubai was booted in the face it was a reaction, not planned from me, and I grabbed my saddle expecting him to explode.. he just looked up, and looked forward.


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

SarahStorms said:


> and before anyone says anything about the bare back riding please dont. I enjoy riding bareback and I like to connect with my horses that way. I do not bounce and I am a balanced, good rider. The previous owners just threw a saddle on her and thats it.
> 
> I will have a vet out to elminiate pain, but she does not show signs at all other then the biting when I'm on her. One the ground she is the sweetest thing, you can touch, rub do whatever with. She runs to great me, she never shys from her halter or is hard to catch. She doesnt show signs of a sore back and is sound. But it would be good to have the chance of pain be eliminated.


All this sounds great, Sarah!  I think what you said in your other post about needing to learn the cues is probably the main issue. Horses often bite at irritations in their horsey lives: Flies, etc. So, that's a tactic they've learnt from when they were little that works in such cases, that they can also carry into trying to deal with unpleasant sensations on their bodies from riding and handling. It's best to deal with that without taking it personally. The body language of the horse (such as ears flat back, nostrils flared, glaring) will show you if there's any serious aggression behind it, or not.

Re bareback: You certainly won't hear any criticisms about that from me. My horses have always enjoyed their bareback work. I think it's a great way to connect with your horse and to become a better rider: So good for learning balance and an independent seat, and for learning to read your horse, and for ending up with minimal visible aids when riding - and these things transfer back into your saddle work. Have you checked out Saranda's journal yet (in the journal section)? She does fabulous bareback work with her gorgeous Snickers:

http://www.horseforum.com/member-journals/adventure-time-snickers-266178/

And then there's Alycia Burton, a NZ lass who puts a smile on my face every time:

About | Free Riding NZ

And... I wouldn't be an Aussie without recommending a wonderful series of books on horse training written by our Tom Roberts, which were just superb references for my last 30 years of educating horses (to harness and saddle). I recently posted a taster here; if it intrigues you then I think you can still find those books online. The other Aussie in this thread has them firmly in her library as well! ;-)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/mare-bucking-when-moving-trot-canter-495825/#post6408977


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

May be your riding bareback is bothering her spine too.

Get a saddle.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

Palomine said:


> May be your riding bareback is bothering her spine too.
> 
> Get a saddle.


My riding is not hurting my horses spine. And I have a saddle. In the process of getting a new that fits much better also. 

But thanks for meaningless advise.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Sarah, you are on the right track. Cynthia Royal cites an example of going to China and working in a factory where no English is spoken. Somehow the foreman has to explain the work to you because you don't speak Chinese. Thro trial and error it is sorted out and harmony is reached. Another way to stop the biting is to grab the bridle just above the bit and don't let her have her head back. She'll move her hindquarters around to escape the pressure but just hold on until she stops moving then give her head a push to straighten it . Don't just let go, it has to be your idea. Do this three or four times and she should quit. It can take that many times for the horse to realize cause and effect.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

Its been getting much better! She only attempted to bite when moving from walk to trot now. And it's not an "aggressive" bite if that makes any sense... She is going to get me, she's just showing her teeth. 

She's making progress! And I will give that a try SB, thank you


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

*she is not going to get me.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

SarahStorms said:


> I have owned my horse for almost two weeks now. She is 9, but VERY green broke so I've started from the beginning with ground work. I do a mixture of different Natural Horsemanship methods, but Buck Brannaman's are my favorite. I have been getting on her bareback and every time I asks for forward movement she turns and try's to bite me. (pins her ears, stomps, whips tail, etc) Once she decides to go forward she is fine! She backs and bends, no problem! What steps should I take to break this biting habit? (she is healthy, she is sound and her back is not sore) Thanks in advance


Ulcers will cause this. A horse has pressure points behind the elbow in the girth area that are sensitive when they have ulcers. I posted a video under health and training but had trouble linking it in iPad.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

SarahStorms said:


> My riding is not hurting my horses spine. And I have a saddle. In the process of getting a new that fits much better also.
> 
> But thanks for meaningless advise.


Sarah, you might be surprised to learn, rude replies to suggestions ain't going to make people want to help you! 

While it sounds to me there are probably more likely reasons for your horse's behaviour, you are mistaken, that is NOT 'meaningless advice' anyway, may well be very relevant, and if your saddle doesn't fit the horse well, you ARE likely hurting, or at least being uncomfortable for her, which is not helpful!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

loosie said:


> Sarah, you might be surprised to learn, rude replies to suggestions ain't going to make people want to help you!
> 
> While it sounds to me there are probably more likely reasons for your horse's behaviour, you are mistaken, that is NOT 'meaningless advice' anyway, may well be very relevant, and if your saddle doesn't fit the horse well, you ARE likely hurting, or at least being uncomfortable for her, which is not helpful!


Great post, some horses just don't like being ridden bareback, either pain, preference or some other reason, just how it is.

Meaningless advice would be me now offering you a great recipe for caramel apple cake, well even that is great, but simply out of context here.

The way we solve issues and get over problems is to read everything that is posted, politely thank those who offer useful advice, then mentally file the stuff you have been given, you should have, Like the sound of that, I will try that, This sounds a bit wacky, I'll come back to that if non of the first stuff works. Then you will end up with stuff that you initially dismissed, you never know when you need to revisit that group, because when all else fails your answer may just be hidden in there.

The hardest advice to take is that which goes against your beliefs, your current methods, or what you would like to be true. It can take years before you admit that one.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful...if the person who posted saying I was "hurting my horse" read my previous posts would know that wasn't true. I am working on finding a proper fitting saddle (she is extremely hard to fit) and also having her checked from ulcers this week. 

I am trying to eliminate reasons for her actions and find the root cause. I apologize if my response came off the wrong way!


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

I am doing everything possible to make sure my horse is not in pain. And for someone to say I am pretty much purposely hurting my horse touched a nerve. As I'm sure it would with any of you.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Sarah, your foot is none of your horse's business. She needs to remain straight until asked to do otherwise. It's not exactly fun if your trotting and she brings her head around and comes to a sudden stop. So glad you are seeing some improvement. I suspect that somewhere in her history if she learned that this tactic was intimidating enough to get the rider to dismount. Score one for the horse. If this is the case it can often take a little longer to fix. Be persistent and as long as your corrective measures make her uncomfortable, she'll quit. Score one for you.


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## Cynical25 (Mar 7, 2013)

Personally, I would use a saddle until she is going more consistently. I enjoy bareback riding, too, but since you say this horse is very green, she may just be confused by too many signals coming from you. She may simply need the security of LESS physical connection between the two of you at this point in her training, of less rider movement for her green brain to have to sort through and determine what are actually cues and what are just your motions to balance on her.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

Cynical25 said:


> Personally, I would use a saddle until she is going more consistently. I enjoy bareback riding, too, but since you say this horse is very green, she may just be confused by too many signals coming from you. She may simply need the security of LESS physical connection between the two of you at this point in her training, of less rider movement for her green brain to have to sort through and determine what are actually cues and what are just your motions to balance on her.


I agree with you! When she is saddled and has a bit she is better behaved. 

I spoke with my vet this morning and have agreed that she has stomach ulcers. We are starting her on a 30 day treatment plan and it things don't get better in a week or so I will have her scoped. 

Hope my girl gets to feeling better. And if the ulcers are causing the biting...hopefully once she's treated that bad habit will be elimated also.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

SarahStorms said:


> I agree with you! When she is saddled and has a bit she is better behaved.
> 
> I spoke with my vet this morning and have agreed that she has stomach ulcers. We are starting her on a 30 day treatment plan and it things don't get better in a week or so I will have her scoped.
> 
> Hope my girl gets to feeling better. And if the ulcers are causing the biting...hopefully once she's treated that bad habit will be elimated also.


she could also have hindgut/ ulcers in her colon. That requires different treatment and you cant see them on a scope. Arenus has a product for hindgut ulcers. A blood test would show if she was low on Albumin and protien to help diagnose hibd gut. If her red/white count is low 
that could help determine reg ulcers.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

churumbeque said:


> SarahStorms said:
> 
> 
> > I agree with you! When she is saddled and has a bit she is better behaved.
> ...


Thank you! I will look into that also. I've never delt with ulcers before so I'll take all the advice I can get!!! My vet said to go ahead and treat with ulcer guard. If that doesn't start showing results in a week or so we will take more steps!


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

From research I'd read a few years back, oats was all that would help heal hindgut ulcers. They do not respond to medications.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^I've asked you about that comment before Saddle. Please tell more, as this... (Oh no, pardon me! I feel an unavoidable pun coming on!) goes against the grain. :rofl::rofl: They are definitely not the only thing that will help, but I'd like more info on what makes you think they're helpful?


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Against the grain, loosie! :rofl: I am trying to remember the names of the biochemicals in oats that are helpful for stomach ulcers in humans (not sure about further down the digestive tract). When you make porridge, you know how it feels slippery? I'm pretty sure it's those substances that cause the slipperiness, that also bind to and protect internal sores from acid, enzymes etc and promote healing that way. Of course, on top of that is having this nice, absorbent bulk material present in the stomach, which also moves acid and enzymes away from the gut surface.

Anyway, it's also why hippies have been using home-made oatmeal scrubs and facial masks for yonks, just made from plain porridge oats. An oatmeal paste applied externally to itchy, rashy skin frequently works wonders (as opposed to control substances, like flour paste, tinned tuna etc ;-) ).

Oats also have the highest concentration of fat, Vitamin E, various powerful antioxidants, B vitamins etc of any of the "mega" cereal grains grown commercially.


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## Remali (Jul 22, 2008)

I'd first rule out pain issues. I would never use any form of severe punishment. And, seeing as she as that green, I would use a saddle. I love bareback too, but not for training, it is too easy for the horse to get too many mixed signals.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for that Sue. I also wonder about those good effects & whether it still comes out on top, weighing up with the high starch... And thanks for the mental picture & giggle... knowing some rather.... confused 'hippies', I'm imagining them getting mixed up & plastering tinned tuna all over their face!:?:rofl:


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## SueC (Feb 22, 2014)

Hey loosie!  The high starch can be an issue when horses don't work hard, or are predisposed to metabolic problems - kind of like, if you're a sedentary human, go easy on the carbohydrates (not just the sugars). Interestingly, oats is a low GI carbohydrate in human nutrition - of course, the horse digests things very differently, has some access to structural carbohydrates (cellulose) as well, which we humans don't, etc etc.

I think quantity comes into it: Fed in smallish amounts in a mixed ration to working horses not predisposed to metabolic problems, I personally think they beat barley and pony cubes. What's a smallish amount? Well, depends on workload. My father's Standardbreds (not predisposed to problems) basically have meadow hay, usually 2-3.5L of whole oats morning and again at night depending on how strenuous the training is, mixed in with vitamin/mineral mix and high-oil meals. These horses really, really work compared to average riding horses, and they work consistently, which is one of the things that's important in avoiding problems in horses and humans... and so unless a rider is eventing, doing endurance, etc, those amounts of oats would be uncalled for... kind of like you can understand an Olympic marathon runner eating several bowls of spaghetti a day, but not such a good idea for the average person. (Having said that, oats are way more nutritious than pasta, and lower GI.)

I am quite concerned though about the sugar content of a lot of commercial oaten hay... those plants, pre-seed maturity, are way higher in sugar than the mature seed... I'd love to see if the plant sugar content of the oat varieties grown for hay has increased the same way as in fruit and vegetables for human consumption in the past 30 years... :shock:


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Subbing.

OP you have a lot of great advice.

I love riding bareback too but how do you KNOW it's not bothering her? I understand you don't currently have a fitting saddle so you may have to ride bareback but do think about the fact it may not be best- and that's saying absolutely NOTHING about you, so don't take it personally.

Make sure she knows the cues THOROUGHLY on the ground so they can then be passed up (ideally to the saddle). I would also recommend a ground person to help transfer those cues.


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## SarahStorms (Sep 8, 2014)

I honestly believe her biting is from the ulcers. She showed it while bareback and saddle. But I guess your right, I don't truly now if I was hurting her or not... But from what her previous owners had seen and what I saw before I bought her she displayed none of this. 

I am not currently riding her. I'm going to get her feeling better and get a better saddle. Hopefully all these chamges combined will cause some positives!!!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

No reason not to ride bareback when you're *both* ready 

Sounds like you're on the right track!


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