# Gorgeous arabian/andalusian stallion (PIC HEAVY)



## Endiku

so a stallion came visiting our farm today, and I think I went to photography heaven xD check this guy out! He's an andalusian/arabian cross. 16.2hh.






















































































so what do you guys think? =P we may be breeding him to our arabian mare Xcia next year ^^
(pardon her facial expression, she's quite the diva and is in no way photogenic xD)


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## Alwaysbehind

Not supposed to provide critiques in the photo section.

When you do want a critique of their compatibility you will need conformation type shots of your mare.


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## Speed Racer

I don't like his looks _at all_, and I'm a big fan of well bred Andalusians and Arabians. He just looks whonky. :?


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## Endiku

Alwaysbehind- we don't want critique at the moment ^^ already have quite a few people helping us decide. We have two other stallions that we're looking at- one being a purebred arabian that we'll most likely choose instead just because his conformation is a tad better and he has a good show record- while this guy is only four years old and was just saddle trained a few months ago.

Speed Racer- really? well, everyone is allowed his own oppinion I guess =P I do admit that his head and body don't go together pefectly...he's a very bulky looking animal. However, he's got an amazing temperment even around the mares and a personality to boot. I have to admit that I love his color the most though xP a bit if a biased oppinion. haha


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## Alwaysbehind

OK, you asked 'what do you think' so I thought that meant you wanted a critique.

I agree with SR. I would not put this boy on any list other than a 'not worthy to be a stallion' list.


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## JamieLeighx

I like his colour . I like his body and his head , just not put together . His head and neck make him look like a chicken lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Zeke

I won't say he's not worthy of anything because I don't feel I have the right to say that, but I agree with the others. I do not like the way he's put together. The huge adni neck put onto a compact Arab body is odd looking and he holds it up like a giraffe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Endiku

AlwaysBehind- Sorry to confuse you! I meant it as 'so, do you like him or not?' evidently I'm the only one that does like him though xD

JamieLeighx- haha, a chicken? xD I guess I can see that. Big body, little head. Maybe we should just saw him in half.

this is the other stud that the man has. We're not sure we like him because he's rather bulky for an arabian though, so we'll probably go with the horse I mentioned in the above post ^^


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## Speed Racer

Endiku, I just don't like him. If you do, fine and dandy. You asked what we thought of him, and I'm just being honest.

There are some Andie/Arab crosses that are really nice. Unfortunately, I don't consider him one of them. Nothing about him gives me reason to think he should be passing on his genetics.

He'll eventually grey out completely, so that color you think is so gorgeous isn't going to stick around either.

Your mare _might_ be able to tone down some of his flaws, but I can't tell much from her conformation based on the one picture.


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## Endiku

I understand, and am in no way trying to tell you to change your mind. I also know that his coloring is subject to change, but hey- he's not my horse, I don't really care x] I'm just pointing out that one of the reasons he caught my eye was that he's got nice coloring. His mane and tail are very nice, too IMO.

And the mare isn't mine. I don't own any horses- so really its not my job to decide who she's bred to. I am staying 'in the loop' at our barn though, and watching to see what they do so that I can learn for future decisions that _are_ mine =]


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## Haylee

He is pretty... Not a huge fan of his body but I LOVE his face! JW: Does he know HOW to put his head down? lol


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## Losthope236

Thats what I was wondering Haylee, He's got nice coloring but his front and hind end don't look well together. Like his head a little though, but I would prefer the second stud over the first.


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## Zora

Stunning Stallion!!! 
we have a 5 year old Andalusian-Arab filly.
It's a very neat breed.


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## Endiku

The problem with the second stud is he has this weird butt. I mean, I know that arabians generally have high tails, but it's like his tailbone doesn't connect right- making an strange angle. Not a favorable thing on a stallion. He's nice otherwise, though =P










and Hayley- I'm not sure that he does! XD if you ask me, his owner hasn't in any way trained him to his potential. He relies more on force than anything, and his horses aren't very supple. The stud tucks his head beautifully when he's in his paddock, but when he's ridden its always waaay up there xD


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## christabelle

Just my opinion that first stud is one of the weirdest looking horses I have ever seen... Maybe that last photo just makes his neck look oober short and thick? I don't know enough to critique though, in fact I find people on this forum tear apart a horse I think looks just fine to me. Just an overall impression that he was "wrong" looking... Very wrong looking. The grey Arabian stud is gorgeous though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind

Endiku said:


> so what do you guys think? =P we may be breeding him to our arabian mare Xcia next year ^^





Endiku said:


> And the mare isn't mine. I don't own any horses


Confused.


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## eventerdrew

eww to both stallions. 

Cute mare. I'd find a stallion that's more suitable to her!


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## Endiku

AlwaysBehind-

should of seperated those two sentances more xD I was just adding as a comment that we're breeding her to him possibly. The 'what do you guys think' was aimed towards the stud just as a horse, not a breeding possibility.

And I don't own any horses- however, I work as an exercise rider and an assistant therapy instructor at the barn, and always refer to the barn as a whole as 'we' and 'us.'

I guess that is pretty confusing. :3 my appology! Should of worded the whole thing differently. heh.


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## Tasia

Not my thing at all. Is that muscle in his neck (the first one)?


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## csimkunas6

There is something about the Andi/Arab cross that I think is very attractive, and stunning, BUT there is also something about him that I dont like at all.

Good Luck in whichever direction you guys choose though


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## Eolith

He looks terribly tense under saddle, which seems likely to be due in part to his training. He's got what I've heard termed as an "upside down neck"... tons of muscle on the underside and not much on the top, which is the opposite of what is typically desired with a horse in most disciplines.


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## JerBear

If he had a bigger butt he wouldnt look so bad.... haha But he is pretty.


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## MN Tigerstripes

I actually think that a lot of his odd conformational "issues" are from the way he is being ridden/trained. More of a muscular issue with an over-built neck, no hind quarters, etc.


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## Endiku

I agree. If someone would take the time to ride him correctly and condition him, he wouldn't be 'upside down', he'd be more evenly porportioned, and have more of a look of grace.


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## Levade

Lovely photos, but _please_ don't breed your mare to him :-|


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## Levade

Both studs have APPALLING conformation and should not be stallions... All of my horses are a million times better conformed than either of those stallions, and all of mine are _geldings_.

If the mare's pure arab, why not breed a pure arab instead of just another grade horse? And there are some AMAZING stallions avaliable through AI, I honestly can't see why anyone would choose to breed to those two, they look awful, almost like something is wrong with their spines...


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## MacabreMikolaj

Until today, I could truthfully say I'd never seen a bad Andalusian Arab cross. Until today. Unfortunately, that stud seemed to take the absolute worst traits of both breeds and none of the good ones they're known for throwing on crosses.

I know it's not your choice, but I would strongly encourage whoever was thinking of this mating to re-think it. If I may stereotype a bit, just from the looks of his tack, training and rider, he is very much a discount cheap stud, yes?

Sometimes the price says it all.

I can see why you like him, he's very "showy" and "spirited", but unfortunately there is nothing about his conformation that makes him very good at ANY discipline.


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## Endiku

let me remind you guys that I posted these pictures in PICTURES section because I liked how the pictures turned out and that I PERSONALLY liked the stallion. I didn't say he had perfect conformation, nor did I say anything about him being a 'fine specimen of his breed.' Yes, I opened the thread to comments on whether you liked him or not- so thats fine, but I do NOT want critique on whether or not he should be gelded, or if our mare should be bred to him or not. If I did, I would of posted in the breeding or horse and rider critique section x.x Yes the horses have flaws, but I did not ask you to tear them apart.


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## Romantic Lyric

He's not a fine specimen of anything, let alone his breed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Endiku

and I did not say that he was :3


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## Romantic Lyric

The word "gorgeous" in your title says otherwise.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Endiku

That was in MY oppinion. I never said anything about him being a great example of a horse, just that *I* thought he was pretty. I don't know what your guy's problem is. I thought a horse looked nice, I posted him in the pictures section to show what I thought was pretty good photography. I DID NOT tell you that he could go be a halter champion or the next big champion-producer, just that I thought him to be pretty.


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## MacabreMikolaj

Endiku said:


> That was in MY oppinion. I never said anything about him being a great example of a horse, just that *I* thought he was pretty. I don't know what your guy's problem is. I thought a horse looked nice, I posted him in the pictures section to show what I thought was pretty good photography. I DID NOT tell you that he could go be a halter champion or the next big champion-producer, just that I thought him to be pretty.


Oh good grief, YOU'RE the one who asked for opinions, how about just don't next time since it's IN the pictures section and nobody would have said a darn thing.

:roll:


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## Endiku

and I mean, really. The pictures section plainly states that



> The Horse Pictures forum here at the Horse Forum is not for critique or breeding discussions. If the same member who has posted a picture in the Horse Pictures forum has brought up breeding her horse elsewhere, discuss it elsewhere. The Horse Pictures forum is a place where people who love their horses and simply want to share their pictures can. It is a non-judgmental environment.


and 



> There will be pictures of horses and riders in the Horse Pictures forum that aren't perfect, but it's no more appropriate to point out faults in threads in the Horse Pictures forum than it is to tell strangers on the street that they are too big or their clothes don't match.


I'm titled to my own oppinion. I'm no horse breeder! I just photographed him and put them on here. Thats it. I haven't hurt anyone and neither has he. :3


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## Juna

I agree. No matter how terrible the stallion/mare/gelding is...if it's posted in the Pictures section, members should keep their criticisms to themselves. ESPECIALLY the extremely harsh _"The stud has APPALLING conformation - All of my horses are a million times better conformed than both these stallions and all of mine are geldings"._ That was uncalled for, IMO. 

The OP should have made it more clear on what TYPE of opinions (whether it was on the photography or what) she wanted, but still...this is the _Pictures_ section. Let's keep everything civil. They aren't even her horses for goodness sakes.


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## Endiku

Yes, and I'm sorry for making that unclear. I promise you though, that I in no way thought that anyone would take it as a cue to critique his breeding or conformation. When I asked for comments, I wanted to know if you guys thought him to be nice looking or not, or perhaps if you liked my photography.

Well, one thing learned! Everyone takes you very literally here. Be specific! lol


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## Eolith

Endiku said:


> Well, one thing learned! Everyone takes you very literally here. Be specific! lol


Thanks for staying calm and trying to put a positive spin on matters! I can understand that some of what has been said on this thread might be discouraging or offensive, but kudos to you for keeping your cool. 

I personally have nothing against the horse. The only thing that irks me a little is the way he appears to have been ridden/trained.


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## Endiku

haha, well I've learned from experience (maybe a little _too much_ experience) that losing your temper only makes others more upset with you, and that was not my objective when creating this thread at all! 

I can definately agree with the opinion that his training has done him more harm that good. The man who trained him took a totally wrong approach, using force rather that asking the horse to do things, and not promoting bend or suppleness at all. I bet if someone took the time to muscle him up the right way, he'd look a heck of a lot better than he does now. His neck would be thinner, his hindquarters bigger, and his overall posture would improve a lot.


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## Spastic_Dove

'stallion' + 'thinking of breeding my mare to...' + 'what do you think?' = Whole lotta breeding critiques. 

Maybe that got lost in translation -- I also thought you wanted a horse critique from that. Not a photography critique. 

It's always fun having a new subject to take pictures of though, awesome you could have that opportunity!


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## Alwaysbehind

You can not now say you did not want an opinion on the stud as a horse and say you wanted a photo critique when you just told me this as an answer to my question. (Bolding mine)



Endiku said:


> AlwaysBehind-
> 
> should of seperated those two sentances more xD I was just adding as a comment that we're breeding her to him possibly. *The 'what do you guys think' was aimed towards the stud just as a horse*, not a breeding possibility.


You do not say anywhere in there that you were looking for a critique of your photographs.


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## Endiku

I did, and do. The horse, the photography, the in general pictures. 

Its not that I minded anyone commenting that the mare ought not to be bred to that stud, but that it was being repeated over,and over, and over- with people getting nastier about it each time. Yes it ticked me off that people were offering critique where I didn't want it, but it didn't bother me until after I had already stated multiple times that I had written my first post wrong, did not want critique on the stud's breedability, and yet people were still hounding me for it. The mare and stud aren't even mine! I can't exactly go up to either of the owners and say 'uhhh, people I talk to say you shouldn't do that. Cut the stallion's balls and leave the mare alone!' I'm a silly little 15 year old in their eyes. Nothing more.

I admitted that I worded the whole post wrong, but I honestly did not think it would cause a fight, or that people would take me wrong. What else can I do? I don't think I was completely wrong in posting my pictures, I'm a member of this forum just as anyone else it. No, I should not of asked 'what do you think' because everyone evidently took it wrong, but I have now corrected myself multiple times. I'm not sure why you feel that it should be brought up again and again. I know better for next time, I can't go back and change what I said- leave it at that, please!

I did not specifially say 'critique the photograph' because, once again, I didn't feel the need. I WILL be more specific next time, however, I -once again- cannot do anything about what I have already written.


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## Levade

Juna said:


> I agree. No matter how terrible the stallion/mare/gelding is...if it's posted in the Pictures section, members should keep their criticisms to themselves. ESPECIALLY the extremely harsh _"The stud has APPALLING conformation - All of my horses are a million times better conformed than both these stallions and all of mine are geldings"._ That was uncalled for, IMO.
> 
> The OP should have made it more clear on what TYPE of opinions (whether it was on the photography or what) she wanted, but still...this is the _Pictures_ section. Let's keep everything civil. They aren't even her horses for goodness sakes.


 
*She ASKED what we thought!! Wouldn't have commented otherwise!!*

And it wasn't harsh, it was true. And actually in the first post it was very much indicated that it was her horse.

The stallion has bad conformation, the OP asked for opinions, I gave mine, I am entitled to that. Come on, you can't look at that stallion and think "that needs to put his print on the horse world!" 

The mare, on the other hand, is very nice, which is why I thought it was such a shame they wanted to breed her to that!


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## Endiku

Even if it was true, it WAS harsh, and rather rude. 

no one said that the stallion should be a stallion. I just noted that I thought he was pretty. *I* am entitled to *my* opinion just as much as you are to yours.

and while I did not say that we _shouldn't_ breed Xcia to him, I did not say that we _should_ either. I simply stated that it was an option. Argue all you want, but whats said is said. It can't be taken back, and I'm not sure I'd even want to if I had the chance.



> so a stallion came visiting our farm today, and I think I went to photography heaven xD check this guy out! He's an andalusian/arabian cross. 16.2hh.


is all that I said. I did not note that he was my horse- but that he was visitings. I DID say 'we' quite a few times which I know and understand that it confused quite a lot of you- but I *cleared that up* only a post later, noting that neither horses were mine and that I was a volunteer worker at the barn that these horses were at.

I'm not sure what else you want me to do. I've appoligized* MULTIPLE* times throughout the thread, corrected what needed correcting, and attempted moving on- yet no one is listening, and we're still sitting her arguing over a silly stud and whether or not he's worth it or not! 

Let me ask you.

*What on earth is this accomplishing?!*

If you're trying to prove that the stud is ugly to me, so be it. Many of you think he's ugly, but I still like certain attributes that he holds. You won't change that by yelling about it.

If you're trying to sound smart, really, to me- you're only sounding more and more childish.

If you're trying to say that I've done something wrong- OK! I already pointed that out _myself_, correcting what I've said and attempting to clear up misunderstandings.

If you're just trying to pick a fight, then...well. Congradulations. You've all pulled that off pretty well too. 

Even if you accomplished ALL of that though, it still doesn't make that horse a gelding, doesn't make our mare any worse cared for, doesn't change how the stud looks or is trained, doesn't make your (and this is directed at Levade) horse win a prettier-than-the-stallion- award, and doesn't make me think more highly of you.


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## twogeldings

*I* think your pictures are lovely. 

Are you down in Mexico/Southern US kinda area? The Spanish horse trainers DO NOT train like the usual US trainers do, henceforth the quack look  

BUT *I* think he is very pretty as a horse. Lots of potential, his conformation is just fine. Necks a little short, but otherwise I'm all over those big bones and sloping shoulder. Lovely refined head, I think he is gorgeous indeed. 


And guys...she can't just run up to the stallion owner and DEMAND that he GELDS his stallion because he's just AWFUL (or whatever this whole spazzing is about). It's not her stallion, and I bet his babies will be lovely. You have to look *under* the problems caused by training, not *at* them. If you trained your geldings the same way, they'd look like that or even wonkier. 

But, since this fine boy doesn't belong to any of us, it's not out place to say 


Great pictures, lovely stud! I'd be quite pleased indeed to wake up in the morning and see him out in my pasture.


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## Endiku

We're in the Katy/Houston area, so yes. We are fairly near the border and his trainer/owner IS hispanic. =]

Thats what I didn't understand. I'm not very good with conformation, but he didn't seem that bad to me. Really, his neck isnt even that short- its just the strange way that he carries it (I think it was described as 'like a girraffe' previously?) that makes it look so thick, bunched up, and...well...Kinda crappy xD Heres another picture of him a bit more stretched out to his normal stature.He's not _that_ bad looking. I agree, he has his faults- but give me two minutes and I bet I can find you atleast three worse conformed studs than him, just in our area.

let me point out, also, just how TIGHT those reins are. His rider hooked them (dangerously) to his saddle horn to keep the stud's head in that position for whatever reason. You would hold yourself that way him you had a severe curb bit in your mouth, yanking you backwards, too!
















We (the barn, not me specifically...) own two colts out of him already, one that we bred and one that we bought.

this is one of them. He's a two year old and is still filling out, but he doesn't have that bad of conformation, as far as I see. He's got a fantastic, floaty trot and canter, and a lovely disposition. Not to mention that he's a GELDING, and will be used eventually for roping.










*shrug* I really don't know what else to say. Its a matter of opinion.


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## Alwaysbehind

Part of the reason his neck looks different is because of an over developed muscled on the underside of the neck. Since the horse braces against the bit and is tense it causes the muscles on the under side of the neck to be used (and get big) instead of the muscles on the upper side of the neck.


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## Endiku

you can very clearly see that muscle too o.o its almost gross, how large they have allowed it to get. It looks as if it takes up atleast half of his neck, giving his horribly fat, beefy look that adds to the shortness.


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## Alwaysbehind

Yes, exactly.


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## JustDressageIt

It is extremely unsafe for the horse to have his head tied to the saddle in that position with a curb bit. Rollkur times ten in my opinion as there is NO give whatsoever. Please do not continue this practice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Endiku

I completely agree, JustDressageIt, however-you are not fully reading my posts, and that irks me a bit.

I do not own the horse, nor does our BO, and we NEVER do this- as it can not only ruin the horse's mouth, but mess up his neck, and it increases the danger A LOT that he could get himself caught on something, or even pull the saddle up.

note my previous post 



> let me point out, also, just how TIGHT those reins are. His rider hooked them (dangerously) to his saddle horn to keep the stud's head in that position for whatever reason. You would hold yourself that way him you had a severe curb bit in your mouth, yanking you backwards, too!


he actually did end up getting himself caught that day, and the BO had to run over and untie him- poor guy. I sometimes wonder if his owner should even have him :3


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## manca

Why does the owner make him put his head up there? 
It doesn't look nice and I don't know what the benefit of it would be, so why does he do that?


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## Endiku

I truthfully have no clue, Manca. I wish that I had an answer, but I don't. It looks extremely untidy and silly to keep the stud's head that way all of the time, I agree. If he would just let him extend his neck, it would do a lot for his overall figure.


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## bubba13

To look impressive. Because he's ignorant and abusive. Because he doesn't know a better way of "training."


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## RoosterDo

I think he is lovely, not necessarily perfect conformation or breeding material but just to look at hes beautiful. Looks like he should be carrying a soldier into battle.


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## paintluver

Hmm, Well I like your mare =] on the other hand what is up with the stud's back? He looks like no fun to ride, if he were to shake his head at a fly he would knock his rider off. But that is just my opinion. 
I do like that second arab stud you posted though.


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## twogeldings

If I had a nice mare and lived in your area, I would honestly breed to him. Probably try to buy the stud while muttering unpleasant things about the training methods used on him under my breath.

Look at the LEGS on that two year old! Thats the kind of thing I want to see when I pull up to my pasture, heavy, strong, legs with BIG feet. Thats the kind of horse that will last a lifetime. Toothpick legs with little feet make me nervous. Red has those kind of legs and feet, bleh. 
Loki's got a pretty decent set of four, so does Divo and especially my little two year old Squeaker. 

I better shut up, it's starting to sound like I have a hoof fetish :lol:


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## Endiku

Bubba- I can just about guarentee that you're right. From the little I know about that man, he's all show, no pro. However, his second stallion (that arab) is amazing. Much better way of carrying himself and such. Ofcourse, he's older (actually, he's the dark grey's father xD) and he's ridden by a woman with very good riding skills also. His head carriage isn't perfect, but atleast a little better xD

(as a note, does his rear end look like a bit...strange to you guys? It does to me.)


















RoosterDo- That's EXACTLY why I liked him. That arrogent, proud way that he holds himself totally got me thinking 'war horse' xD

paintluver- I'm not sure. What do you mean exactly? That his back looks tense, or that its shape is just...off? =]

twogeldings-I'm not sure that I would _personally_ breed a mare to him, but I'm not sure that I"m against someone who wanted to either. I mean, look at the two year old. He's gorgeous! And he's obviously got some of his father's build too. The slope of his hindquarters, a bit of his face, and the big, strong legs. I'm actually really excited to see how Buddy (the 2 year old) turns out =P


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## JustDressageIt

I'm on my mobile and didn't go through the entire thread, just saw and commented. Glad it wasn't you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Levade

> If you're trying to prove that the stud is ugly to me, so be it. Many of you think he's ugly, but I still like certain attributes that he holds. You won't change that by yelling about it.


He's not ugly, he's badly conformed!! He's prancey and grey and shiney, if I didn't know much about conformation, I would think that he was beautiful, but conformation is either correct or it's not, there are no two ways about it. My geldings have better (more correct) conformation than he does, but are still not good enough to be stallions. That should say more about the quality of this stud than the quality of my horses.

I'm sorry, but you ask for an opinion, you get what you're given, just because I disagree doesn't make me rude or harsh. If you want to work with horses you are going to have to get used to harsh realities, especially in this economic climate, there is not much room for poor judgement.

I like your mare, she is nice, I never said anything against her.

I'm sorry, I spent a year volunteering at a rescue centre, so many badly conformed youngsters end up there (and for every one we had, tens more would go to slaughter) simply because someone decided to breed their mare to the cheap stud down the road, who had no performance record or even decent confo. When you have seen hundreds of these sweet, trusting little horses loaded onto the meatman's lorry, then you get a bit funny about people breeding their horses and not putting enough thought into it.

Your barn has a nice mare, she could produce a lovely foal, I just don't feel that this stallion would do her any favours, with the use of AI you could breed something spectacular, that would never end up as dogmeat, but I don't feel that this stallion is the way to go.


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## Endiku

And putting it that way, Levade- I can identify better. I understand that his conformation is not in any way what the standard should be for a stallion. However, I still cannot do anything about that =] only, possibly, mention to the owners that I think it wouldn't be a good idea to breed him to our mare. Still, there is almost no chance of them listening to me as I'm still fairly inexperienced- especially when on the subject of breeding. Still, I'm not sure it was neccessary to say that about the animal. Either way, I still have no power over him or the mare. I was just in it to say 'oh look, big grey stallion! ooooh' like the childish 15 year old I am. I still have a lot of that silly little girl in me that is taking a long time to be corrected o.- because even though I'm beginning to see the faults everyone is pointing out, I still think him to be pretty! lol.

I didn't mind you dissagreeing, I minded that everyone as a whole wasn't letting the thread continue, and were not allowing me to give any input or to correct myself. That it was what bothering me, not that people thought differently than I did. 

So, I applogize once again for jumping to conclusions and starting to snap at those of you who gave your rightly earned input. Can we continue this thread in a more positive manner now, say that we all have our differences in opinion, and move on? :wink:


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## Levade

That's fine, I don't mean to be rude, it can just come across that way in text  You seem to love horses, and seem willing to learn which is the main thing!

I suppose I have had a harsh upbringing when it comes to horses. I've worked for the hunt, volunteered at vet and rescue centres, all destroy horses for various reasons - often simply because they are poor specimens and so no one wants to invest in them - you can't save them all. I have helped winch dead horses onto trucks and hose away the blood, so have had it hammered into me from a young age that when you breed a foal it isn't all cute and lovely, there are consequences, and you need to do your utmost to prevent any horse of yours ending up in that situation.

I know that at your age I would have been the same! Big handsome dancing stallion and the thought of a little foal, too exciting for thinking of the future! But there are simply too many crap (sorry, it's true) horses being bred, that have no future, and so end up crammed onto livestock lorries headed for the border and an inhumane end. Unless people raise their standards when it comes to breeding, this problem will never go away.

I think that the best path for you to take in influencing the barn owner's decision is to find other more suitable stallions, and show them nice pictures to try and convince them. What are they wanting the foal for? Just lessons or showing too?

The white grey stallion with the strange a**e, looks as if he has possibly broken his dock at some point. There used to be a practise here called 'nicking', cutting the tendon above the tail to force a high tail carriage, it was outlawed a hundred years ago here but still goes on in the US, possibly he's had a botched job?


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## Endiku

I'm so sorry D: that must be a horrible thing to see. I haven't had to deal with any of that so far, but I know that as I progress, I will encounter bad trainers, breeders, and the like, since my goal is to become a large animal vet, specializing in equine care.

Big hansome dancing stallion... yep. That just about sums it up xD and the dancing being a literal thing. The man who rides Cicada has taught him a variety of 'tricks', including to 'dance'. o.o I guess that as I progress, I'll begin to be able to pick out a pretty horse from a well built horse. Or atleast I hope so =]

I think they mostly just want the foal for lessons, although the BO did mention that if the colt or filly was nice, he might want to try his hand at showing it. Xcia, the mare, was shown as a show jumper (she's a rather hardy little gal) as well as an english pleasure horse for a while, and did really well, so I'm assuming that he would want the foal to follow similar footsteps.

I'm not sure that I have the ability to find a stud at the moment, as I might use poor judgement once again xD I know that the BO would want more of the strong-legged, hardy arabian genetics though, and not the refined, if-you-touch-them-they-will-break sort. Maybe I'll mention it in the breeding thread. I sort of dread that idea though, as it might start another thread like this one.

Really? I've never heard of that o.o how horrid! I can definately see how that might make him look that way though. hmmm.


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## Levade

Okay, conformation! 

Basically a horse can have pretty poor conformation and still be sound into it's teens for light work. But it will never amount to anything, or stand up to serious work, or still be useable past the age of about 18. So really you owe it to the foal to equip it as best you can when it comes to conformation. Yes, temperament is very important, but what's the point of having a horse with the heart to win grand prix showjumping, but legs that won't hold up for a trot down the road?

This stallion's neck isn't simply upside down, he has a ewe neck, which is a skeletal defect and although can be improved in appearence with correct musculature, doesn't go away, and will be passed onto offspring. (as you can see in the two year old, he has a ewe neck too) 

His faults are:

- Ewe neck
- Long back (also passed onto the two year old)
- Weak/sway back
- Weak through the loins
- Slight sickle hock
- Over at the knee
- Short croup/flat croup
- Downhill

Here is a picture with a horse with pretty much correct conformation. For all disciplines. Yes, some favour a bigger bum or lower head set, but this horse would do exceptionally well at whatever he turned his hoof to, and stay sound to boot.









​
I think seeing them side by side kind of illustrates the problems the grey stallion has. His whole build is inverted, whereas the bay looks as if he could lift his shoulders and work through his back with such ease that correct carriage would come naturally.

I still think breeding to a pure arab would be the best thing to do, find one that does AI so that you don't need to travel the mare, as it sounds as if her owners don't want to spend much...


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## Levade

Endiku said:


> I'm so sorry D: that must be a horrible thing to see. I haven't had to deal with any of that so far, but I know that as I progress, I will encounter bad trainers, breeders, and the like, since my goal is to become a large animal vet, specializing in equine care.
> 
> Big hansome dancing stallion... yep. That just about sums it up xD and the dancing being a literal thing. The man who rides Cicada has taught him a variety of 'tricks', including to 'dance'. o.o I guess that as I progress, I'll begin to be able to pick out a pretty horse from a well built horse. Or atleast I hope so =]
> 
> I think they mostly just want the foal for lessons, although the BO did mention that if the colt or filly was nice, he might want to try his hand at showing it. Xcia, the mare, was shown as a show jumper (she's a rather hardy little gal) as well as an english pleasure horse for a while, and did really well, so I'm assuming that he would want the foal to follow similar footsteps.
> 
> I'm not sure that I have the ability to find a stud at the moment, as I might use poor judgement once again xD I know that the BO would want more of the strong-legged, hardy arabian genetics though, and not the refined, if-you-touch-them-they-will-break sort. Maybe I'll mention it in the breeding thread. I sort of dread that idea though, as it might start another thread like this one.
> 
> Really? I've never heard of that o.o how horrid! I can definately see how that might make him look that way though. hmmm.


Well conformation you get a feel for, if you look at footage (youtube is fantastic!) of well built horses moving you can see what a difference it makes!

An admirable ambition! And yes, you do come across some horrible things! :-(

I think Polish arabians are pretty solid, you would be best going for an arab with a performance record in a proper sport such as show jumping, endurance or eventing, as then you know that this horse is hardy enough to cope with the stress of competing, and is not just a fat fragile 'halter' horse.

If you have a google, something like "endurance arab stallions at stud" should come up with some good ones


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## Levade

Here, if you click 'stallions at stud' and do a search with no restrictions, they have millions listed. 

http://www.arabianhorses.org/marketplace/Classified/Index.asp


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## JustDressageIt

For what its worth, I would NEVER breed to this stallion simply because his owner is an abusive tool. I would never ever give this guy a penny to breed to any animal he owns, I would never be a part of supporting such a person. Then again I would have been ....uh... discussing why the practice of tying a horse's head to its chest with a curb is disgusting. But I'm opinionated and not afraid to show it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PintoTess

Im not going to judge, I have not seen the stallion live, only photos. I want to see him with his head let out, no saddle no rider restricting him. Then, I would state weather I like him or not. He is holding his head becasue of the rider (and the bit ect)but he may be a nice stallion under better training and conditioning. No, I do not like the way he is built, but what can we judge. We haven't seen him move. He could be a nice mover despite his faults. But I would not breed Tess to him.


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## glitterhorse

I think he's pretty, but he's out of proportion lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spastic_Dove

Eep. This just makes my back hurt... 

I wish you had some pictures of him at liberty :? 

I'd love to just see him be able to relax and stretch and not look so pinched and tense. Poor thing. 


I just looked at that picture again... It's like he's Andalusian in the front, arab in the back. :shock:


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## Katze

poor guy, looks like a corkscrew he's so tensed up. His owner is a hack trainer who thinks that having his stallion look like a peacock in heat will get him more mares to breed him to which = more $$. He has no care for that animal....I dont even want to contemplate that poor guy's future >.<

Levade awesome comparison, I hadn't noticed the flaws you pointed out I was so busy looking at his poor bulging neck, makes you really think before you buy/breed any horse.


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## Starlite

makes me literally ILL to see this horse tied down this way...I also would never give this a** a dime of my money. Ignorant fool. 

One thing I will say, I think that this Stallion's patience and amiability must be quite good, that he would tolerate this harsh and painful treatment and not pound his owner into the dirt every time he sees him coming. I know I would.


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## Rissa

He looks REALLY uncomfortable. Goodness.


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## lilkitty90

honestly, the first horse as potential to be a wel conformed horse, i think he's got the saddle to far forward and obviously riding in a bit that horse doesn't like and thats why hes jacking his head up, what i would like to see is a nice picture of him NOT under saddle and without a bit! and personally i like the second stally, and yes his but it angled awkward, but if your mare has a nice bum that could be better. i assume it's because he doesn't have alot of muscling on his bum but who knows.


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## Endiku

Levade said:


> Okay, conformation!
> 
> Basically a horse can have pretty poor conformation and still be sound into it's teens for light work. But it will never amount to anything, or stand up to serious work, or still be useable past the age of about 18. So really you owe it to the foal to equip it as best you can when it comes to conformation. Yes, temperament is very important, but what's the point of having a horse with the heart to win grand prix showjumping, but legs that won't hold up for a trot down the road?
> 
> This stallion's neck isn't simply upside down, he has a ewe neck, which is a skeletal defect and although can be improved in appearence with correct musculature, doesn't go away, and will be passed onto offspring. (as you can see in the two year old, he has a ewe neck too)
> 
> His faults are:
> 
> - Ewe neck
> - Long back (also passed onto the two year old)
> - Weak/sway back
> - Weak through the loins
> - Slight sickle hock
> - Over at the knee
> - Short croup/flat croup
> - Downhill
> 
> Here is a picture with a horse with pretty much correct conformation. For all disciplines. Yes, some favour a bigger bum or lower head set, but this horse would do exceptionally well at whatever he turned his hoof to, and stay sound to boot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​
> I think seeing them side by side kind of illustrates the problems the grey stallion has. His whole build is inverted, whereas the bay looks as if he could lift his shoulders and work through his back with such ease that correct carriage would come naturally.
> 
> I still think breeding to a pure arab would be the best thing to do, find one that does AI so that you don't need to travel the mare, as it sounds as if her owners don't want to spend much...


 
oh WOW xD comparing him to the other horse definately helps me see the difference. Poor Cicada! Someone needs to take, totally retrain, geld, and give that guy a pat on the head for putting up with so much.

Everyone else seems to agree that if he could actually stretch himself out, get trained the right way, and loosen up- he'd look a lot better. What do you think? Any hope?

And thanks for the tips. I'll look at some studs and maybe post in the breeding section a few that I find, and see if anyone else thinks differently.

Starlite- for all of the crap he's been through, that stallion is a complete angel. Gentle, well mannered (except when brought up to his father! those two hate eachother :lol and really a nice big guy. I wonder that he hasn't tried to smash his rider either. o.o

and you're right levade, the BO doesn't really want to pay much more than $500 to breed her, since we're not really looking for a high-class, olympics type horse =P 

And for those of you who mentioned it, the man (we'll call him Mr. F) who owns the stallion used to work with our BO and they're pretty good friends, so Mr. F was actually going to breed for free. Now I know why 
hehe


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## JustDressageIt

Please try and convince her to go for a quality stud. If she ever has to sell the foal (which is likely) wouldn't it be better to advertise a horse with a good sire line than somebody's backyard pet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Endiku

I'm trying, but remember my age, and how little I know ^^ I'm not sure that I can do very much.


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## DrumRunner

I personally don't really like him.. His neck looks weird and doesn't really connect with his body very well..

and, it's killing me that he has a halter on under the bridle..I don't know why that kills me but I hate it..and it also kills me that he is tied to a tree by his bridle..that's smart. I'm not talking bad about you Endiku, but that drives me crazy and it's the first thing I see when I look at the pictures.

YES! AB that one is way better than he rat..it is almost as good as Teddy..I like it..


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## Alwaysbehind

DrumRunner said:


> YES! AB that one is way better than he rat..it is almost as good as Teddy..I like it..


Good! .


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## lilkitty90

ok lol i have to comment.. AB i LOVE your avatar lol it makes me giggle.


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## Endiku

DumRunner- he's not my horse, and I do not in any way agree with the way he is handled, as stated =] although the halter under his bridle doesn't bother me too much. It DOES bother me that his head is secured by his halter to his chest though by some sort of cheap hay-twine martingale though :3


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## equiniphile

*headdesk* Whoever owns him needs to be outta the horse business.


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## lildonkey8

I love him! What. A. Beauty!


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## Spyder

Endiku said:


> DumRunner- he's not my horse, and I do not in any way agree with the way he is handled, as stated =] although the halter under his bridle doesn't bother me too much. It DOES bother me that his head is secured by his halter to his chest though by some sort of cheap hay-twine martingale though :3


You see things like this and it should throw up major red flags if you have any intention of breeding to the stallion. 

Just how do you think they will handle your mare when the breeding actually gets going.

Abuse your own horse=abuse the customer's mare.

Just like the person I boarded with for a short time and the "tricks" he "taught" his horse. Tie them up in the stall real tight ( like this one was) and take a whip and whack at its back legs until it dances and call it a piaffe !! :twisted::twisted::twisted:

From the way he sits and holds this horse it would not surprise me that is how he "trains" and you want to send your mare to someone like that????????


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## fuadteagan

He is so gorgeous. I lovve him very much. He is bulky. Has anyone seen an andalusian? They are bulky also. How old??


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## DrumRunner

I agree with Spyder
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PintoTess

They are not bulky tegan. Just well muscled well conformed (most of them) Id love to have an andalusian.


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## Kayty

fuadteagan said:


> He is so gorgeous. I lovve him very much. He is bulky. Has anyone seen an andalusian? They are bulky also. How old??


Sorry everyone for my moment of immaturity here but *giggle* :lol: Nope, no, never ever seen an andy... but if they all look like that I have no idea why they are used in the spanish riding school :shock:


OP, he's a lovely photography subject and has the potential to be a very 'pretty' and 'flashy' gelding. Certainly not a stud though. Poor ****** being treated like that. But yes, certainly the type of horse that the inexperienced person would think was perfect in every way. He is the sort of horse the little kids dream of having - dark grey stallion, with flowing mane and tail and big chunky neck :wink:
Unfortunately in reality, he isn't such a dream boat conformation wise and I would be concerned for his soundness in the future.


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## PintoTess

This is a nice specimen of an andalusian  Now you HAVE seen on Kayty


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## Kayty

WOW so THAT's what they look like :O And there I was thinking they were those little skinny finely built things that get raced a lot... gee, I'd better get myself educated!


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## PintoTess

Oh you soooo need to ! O.O


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## Kayty

*pulls out kids horse magazine with pretty pictures* don't interrupt me, I'm studying up. This dressage thing looks kind of cool, might try my hand at that


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## PintoTess

Why not? They look oh so pwetty and with white leg bandages and a pwetty coat who can resist  Ill shutup now, can't interrupt Kayty while she is studying.....


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## Kayty

Looks pretty easy too hey! The riders look like they're just sitting there doing nothing. Can't be hard at all!! I think I'm going to do some of that stuff with my horsey tomorrow... that trotting on the spot thingy looks pretty fancy, i might start with that. I'm guessing you just pull back on the reins and kick at the same time??


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## Endiku

is it even worth me pointing out that I've already agreed that the stallion is NOT the right choice, that she's NOT my mare, that the stud is handled poorly? x]

goodness, guys.

And Kayty, just as a note, Dressage is one of the most complicated training procedures that there are. It requires a good seat, clear signals, a sensative horse, and a LOT of practice. I agree, it looks as if the rider is just sitting onthe horse letting him do the work, but really it's no easy feat to sit a trot like that, or to direct a 20m circle without the slightest movement to the observer! =]


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## Annanoel

I have to say the two separate breeds are beautiful in themselves, but mixed he does look like a giraffe or chicken. His small arabian head does not fit the Andalusian body. Again, it could be the mix or conformation, among many other problems. The choice is yours...


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## drafts4ever

Endiku said:


> goodness, guys.
> 
> And Kayty, just as a note, Dressage is one of the most complicated training procedures that there are. It requires a good seat, clear signals, a sensative horse, and a LOT of practice. I agree, it looks as if the rider is just sitting onthe horse letting him do the work, but really it's no easy feat to sit a trot like that, or to direct a 20m circle without the slightest movement to the observer! =]



I think Kayty was being silly and smart like a child that has no clue. Her post I think is supposed to be read with a sarcastic tone. haha


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## Endiku

o.o totally knew that


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## iridehorses

We are going in a circle and all things necessary have been said in 10 pages! ... so I'm closing the thread.


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