# Just how important is establishing forward impulsion and a good work ethic?



## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I think it is time for a discussion on just how important it is to establish a good work ethic and good forward impulsion early in a horse's training.

Personally -- I think it is HUGE. I think it should be the cornerstone on any training program. I think establishing good forward impulsion is the most important concept any trainer has to teach any horse that is going to be ridden in any discipline or for any purpose. 

I keep reading about people that have horses 'quit' when they are tired; horses that 'stall out' and refuse to go down a trail or away from the barn; horses that won't go forward without another horse with them or in front of them; horses that must be nagged at and pecked at to get them to go forward; horses that weave and stagger like a drunk, moving as slowly as possible. I am a firm believer that ALL of these problems stem from a lack of good forward impulsion and a good work ethic.

Just like teaching children to willingly work and take responsibilities seriously, I am a firm believer that horses need to be taught a good work ethic and good forward impulsion EARLY in their training. I am also a firm believer that when horses have been allowed to stall out and barely respond to a rider's requests in their early training that they seldom become as great at any demanding discipline as they could have with better early training.

I know this belief is not universal among horse owners. I read that a lot of people just wait out a horse or take it with other horses or barely coax it along hoping that it will get easier later. Some people just find it easier to ask less and be satisfied with staying around the barn area and just 'playing' with their horse or staying with ground-work long after a horse 'could' have been taught to ride well and go anywhere a rider points its head.

We keep hearing that every horse needs a strong leader they can trust. Does this not carry over to a leader that requires obedience under saddle and not just barely asks for it? Just how does a person become confident enough to become that leader that can easily get a horse to go anywhere they point its head? Is it even necessary?

Let know your thoughts on this. Cherie


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I agree. My motto when training a young horse is, forward is your friend. Forward movement nips in the bud many issues that can crop up later. Barn sourness, balking, backing up, and rearing just to name a few.

Those first rides are all about forward.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

This is from a book published in 1937 by Gen Harry Chamberlin, who largely wrote the final US Cavalry manual on riding. I'd be interested in knowing y'alls thoughts. 

Click on the photo to make it large enough to read easily:










Also, from James Fillis's book on riding, published in 1902 ( Breaking and Riding ):​ 







​


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I suppose I also ought to add my own experience with Mia. She knew nothing about moving anywhere outside of a corral when we got her. Walking her on a lead rope 100 yards was enough to melt her down. She did not try to pick her feet up over a 3" rock. It was as though she had no idea a rock COULD exist! A 6" gully could scare her.

Getting her to go faster has never been a problem, but getting her to go forward when afraid sure has. She can run backwards against the hardest whipping with a leather strap that I'm willing to give, which meant we needed to try a different approach.

ON another thread ( http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/try-re-teaching-horse-heart-495697/ ) I wrote: "_I read a book about cutting. The guy said it was important to start the horse on a cow the horse could 'beat'. He said you could then train it up and get a horse who would give you his best. But if you put him on too tough a cow too quick, the horse would give up and never be worth a darn cutting. Part of good training was to pick challenges that set the horse up for success, and then build on those successes_."

That is the idea I've tried using with Mia - to find things she considers challenging but not overwhelming, and then pushing her forward. If she flat out balks, I've picked the wrong challenge and we've gone backwards 10 steps. It takes a lot of small successes to give her the confidence to try a slightly smaller challenge. She has an exceptional memory even by horse standards. Overwriting a bad memory or habit with a good one takes a LOT of work, and one bad moment sets us way back.

I wish she had been properly trained from the beginning. I had no more business being the one who needed to teach her than she had being the horse I would learn to ride on, but things were what they were and are what they are, and finding our way forward has had a lot of detours and wrong directions. But she would have been a spectacular horse if only started right and taught confidence from the beginning.

There may be a better approach to use with her. I'm certain spurs are NOT a part of her future...I wouldn't have the skill, even if I had the will. But it sure is a shame she didn't learn forward - not fast, which she knows, but forward - from the beginning!

And any ideas on how to progress with a horse like her, to teach her forward, would be a pleasure to read.


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## Incitatus32 (Jan 5, 2013)

I like for mine to have an excellent work ethic. However I believe that every horse is born with a different degree of one. I've been lucky that my personal horses have a great work ethic. With my colt I demand 100% respect 100% of the time; I expect him to look to me for guidance when he does not understand something and I expect him to give his all when I clarify. We're not at the riding stage yet but I expect him to be able to give me impulsion on the ground when I ask and tone it down when I ask. There are some days when one of us or neither of us is really in the mood for forwardness but we just enjoy a nice stroll that's slower than dirt but the pace we need. HOWEVER, at any time if I say speed up, whoa or demand his attention I've got it instantaneously. If he's spooking at something he prefers if we mosey up to it over the course of a few minuets so that he can take a look at it and then play with it. If he tests me when we mosey he has learned first hand that I'm like a lightswitch and he does not want to flip it! 

But I know that with him I've got his respect and trust so to me I won't always demand forwardness out of him, but I will demand that when I say 'haul butt' he hauls butt. 

On the other hand I've had horses that I've had to demand forwardness in addition to respect. I worked with a little mare who was barn sour to the extreme. I had to constantly demand that she move out to keep her respect, and her mind on her job. I think that some horses are just like that. 

Some horses can mosey and you will never (or rarely because let's face it a horse always can have a problem moment) need to keep forward to avoid problems or spooks, others you will have to. 

Sorry if this is a bit uncoordinated. Can I blame a lack of caffeine? lol


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I was taught and do teach FFM - Free Forward Movement. 

Once a horse is moving forward freely, is supple and leg obedient then and only then can further education take place.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Without forward you cannot have relaxation and rhythm.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Pretty important. Without it neither of you will get anywhere.

Early in a horse's training, I'll take a really way out movement as long as it's forward. 

Riding young/green horses, you pick your time, the rest of the crew knows who's on young stuff, and you try not to get in situations where you might have to ask too much, but you keep them going.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Just an example of dealing with resisitance firmly and immediately. I bought a very nice mare last Nov. Didn't ride much over the winter because of the poor ground conditions. This mare was not ridden regularly before I got her and had never gone out alone. In the spring I took her out for a ride through the property and into the woods and all went well. A couple of days later I went out and when we got to the first field she baulked and said "No".
Now this is the place where you have to lay down the law (IMO) so I got very firm with her meanwhile thinking "I hope I can handle what she dishes out" because they can get pretty tough in their refusals. I often ride with a crop tucked in my boot but this day didn't have one so just used the end of my reins to give her a swat and my voice. She fussed a bit but caved in as she figured I was not giving up and we contined our ride with no problems and never had a refusal to go out again.
I really believe that if I had been more patient and let her stand there until she decided to go or walked her around waiting for her to do as I wished I would have been letting myself in for more problems in the future.
All horses are different and with some you have to take more time but I think that every horse at some point will challenge you and you have to be sure to meet that challenge and win and once you do things go easier. With a really tough horse I am careful to pick my battles and make sure the odds are in my favour.
I have had horses that are well trained and going well and sometimes they just get compaisent and igore my cues, if this happens and I know they do understand but are just saying "ho hum" I will give him a good couple of swats with the crop and then ask again nicely and it's surprising how well they respond to the cue that time. I believe one good swat with the crop is better than a 100 little naggy requests.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I do think horses, like all things with minds of their own, have different tendencies towards a greater or lesser work ethic, which is likely wired in part at least to genetics (nature). I also strongly believe that the "nuture" part, to include experiences and training, has a profound impact on their actual behavior. My N of one includes a dramatic shift in work ethic when different leadership/training methods were applied.

"Some people just find it easier to ask less and be satisfied with staying around the barn area and just 'playing' with their horse or staying with ground-work long after a horse 'could' have been taught to ride well and go anywhere a rider points its head."

I think you are spot-on with this observation, but this is a failure of the humans, not the horses. Even if the horse was given a good proper grounding in 'go' at the start, so much of the majority of pleasure/inexperienced/undertrained riders spends most of the time either actually pulling back on the reins or sitting a tenth of a second from doing so because they're scared of their horse, they're scared that he might actually go forward, and they're scared they can't control him. It doesn't take long for all but the most steady and well trained horses to figure out that the person actually wants them to do anything BUT go forward... or at least that's what the half-trained monkeys are actually signaling, regardless of what they think they are trying to get the horse to do.

"We keep hearing that every horse needs a strong leader they can trust. Does this not carry over to a leader that requires obedience under saddle and not just barely asks for it? Just how does a person become confident enough to become that leader that can easily get a horse to go anywhere they point its head? Is it even necessary?"

Hell, I don't want to follow a leader that seems scared and as though they have no idea what they actually want to do, or what they want me to do. Horses aren't dumb. Bad leaders lead to bad places and situations. Calm, confident, sure leaders lead to safety and success. Horse or human. If my leader is wishy-washy and unclear on what they want me to do, it's hell trying to figure out what ought to be done. I think clear leadership is 100% necessary.

Here's the kicker, in my mind. It has NOTHING to do with training or skill or experience, though any or all of those can be very helpful. It all has to do with presence. Confidence. Calm. Consistency. If I want to take a traditionally trained horse from pasture and teach it that I want it to turn left when I put my hand on it's right hip from the saddle, I can. So long as I am calm, consistent and confident, it doesn't matter if my signals are 'right' in a traditional sense. The horse will learn what I want. More or less, that's how my horse and I have worked out... while I don't know 'right' per se (I am still learning too), I know what I have decided will be the Standard Operating Procedures and made them clear to him. 

"How does a person become confident enough to be that leader?" Training, skill and experience all help, but essentially, for me, it was "Fake it til I make it" and setting us both up for small successes to build that confidence from the ground up. Self control- actually learning to calm yourself as a conscious exercise is useful. Horses know if you're nervous, true, but they also sense all the other things too- your resolve, your patience, your willingness to lay down the law. Forward needs to be instilled in new riders just as surely as it does in young horses! If more riders would loosen up on the front end of the anxious or worried horse and let him move, BOTH would gain confidence, relaxation, and a habit of success that would stand them in good stead I think.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Foxhunter said:


> I was taught and do teach FFM - Free Forward Movement. ...


The "free" is important.

We're talking about early training here (not re-training problem horses) and I notice quite a lot of force being recommended. I'm not against using pain, but just going with the Free Movement really should be enough.

I don't believe in "work ethic"---I don't think horses think in terms of work.

I've also seen where early hard work (the famous "wet blanket" approach) has dampened down a horse to almost fear of fatiguing itself. You need to be careful: keep the work as do-able as the "beatable" cows.

I know a woman who put her utter faith in a big, intelligent QH who was absolutely the boss. Fortunately, he liked being ridden, and he'd go wherever he thought it was safe; which in my opinion included places NOT safe (cliffs, steep muddy trails etc). It was one of those unlikely partnerships that went against the rules, but I keep it in mind: some people don't want, or need, a very forward horse, and so long as everyone has the same expectations, there wil probably be no problem.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_If more riders would loosen up on the front end of the anxious or worried horse and let him move, BOTH would gain confidence, relaxation, and a habit of success that would stand them in good stead I think._"

This describes both my problem and what seems to work best. I think Mia responded well to curb bits and slack reins because my anticipation made things worse. She could not learn confidence if my reins were telling her I was afraid, even when what I feared was her fear!

This advice from Tom Roberts also seems to be helping, at least for the month I've been trying it:








​ 
As a newish rider, giving her her head when she is tense is not easy. However, if I use leg to keep her facing the scary thing, and let her pick out her path past it, then she responds much better than if I try to jump in and 'take control'. We may make a big detour the first time, but she does seem to gain confidence from being expected to have it...if that makes sense. It is as though she is thinking, "_If my rider trusts me, I must be trustworthy_" and tries to rise to the occasion.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Beling said:


> I don't believe in "work ethic"---I don't think horses think in terms of work.


Are you able to credit some horses with a willingness to do what is asked even when they would prefer to not? And recognize that other horses balked, rear, spin, wander back and forth when they don't want to do something or think they have done enough?

The first is what the people I know mean by "work ethic."


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

boots said:


> Are you able to credit some horses with a willingness to do what is asked even when they would prefer to not? And recognize that other horses balked, rear, spin, wander back and forth when they don't want to do something or think they have done enough?
> 
> The first is what the people I know mean by "work ethic."


I think I usually call that "ethic": submissiveness.

The other trait called "work ethic" is like my go-go-go horse. In her case, it's actually dominance. While she is a good, quick learner, if you don't keep things a little difficult, she will think she knows the program, and try to lead the session. It's not that she actually wants to be a leader, she just likes to be in front all the time. Dominance and leadership---I think there's a subtle difference.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Free movement, by itself, would always shortly end with Mia's face in her food bucket. The difference between sitting on a horse and riding it is getting the horse to do what it doesn't feel like doing, and doing so with good manners and even enthusiasm.

Work ethic allows the rider to set the goal (submissiveness), but then follows through with enthusiasm in accomplishing those goals. IMHO. I think some horses enjoy the teamwork between human and horse - our brains, their muscle, and it makes sense to them.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I need to chew on some of these comments. While feeding and mucking and cooking dinner I'll organize my thoughts and post later.

Great topic!


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## greenhaven (Jun 7, 2014)

What a fantastic conversation! Wish I had something I could contribute, but I am immensely enjoying the read.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

In the UK most arenas are 20m x 40m, the size of a small dressage arena and I really feel that this is not big enough to ride a young horse away in.

I long rein and pony any horse I am breaking out and about so, when it comes time to ride them I will rode them straight out on the roads and tracks, usually on their own. I will give them plenty of trotting and a couple of canters. I have a contact on the reins but in no way am I restricting them. 
My aim is to get them going forward. They have seen all there is to see on the routes from being driven and led. 

The horse doesn't worry about me being on their back because they are looking ahead. 

I give them a good ride, at least an hour. Some get a bit tired so, on the way home I will dismount and lead them the last mile or so.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Yep, forward is one of the most important things you can teach a young horse. Without it, you won't go anywhere, either in your training or in terms of miles.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

boots said:


> Are you able to credit some horses with a willingness to do what is asked even when they would prefer to not? And recognize that other horses balked, rear, spin, wander back and forth when they don't want to do something or think they have done enough?
> 
> The first is what the people I know mean by "work ethic."


I would also call that type of horse well trained.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Beling said:


> The "free" is important.
> 
> We're talking about early training here (not re-training problem horses) and I notice quite a lot of force being recommended. I'm not against using pain, but just going with the Free Movement really should be enough.
> 
> ...


I believe in wet blankets. Wet blankets doesn't mean trotting or galloping around like a chicken after a June bug trying to wear a horse out/ down. For me wet blankets on a green horse is a good foward walk. No balking, backing up or stopping to sniff the scary stuff. 

As for the QH You mentioned he sounds like he liked working, or had a work ethic. But you make it sound as if this horse went where he wanted when he wanted. Or was his rider also game for a challenging trail ride? I couldn't tell by your description.

I believe people have a tendency to think forward means high speeds. To me, that is not the meaning of a forward horse.

Ever been stuck behind a horse on a trail that craaaaaawled. The horse is so slow that I could crawl on my hands and knees over rocks faster. A truly forward trained horse can walk out and cover some real estate at the walk. That to me is forward. The faster gaits later in training are just icing on the cake.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Beling said:


> I think I usually call that "ethic": submissiveness.
> 
> The other trait called "work ethic" is like my go-go-go horse. In her case, it's actually dominance. While she is a good, quick learner, if you don't keep things a little difficult, she will think she knows the program, and try to lead the session. It's not that she actually wants to be a leader, she just likes to be in front all the time. Dominance and leadership---I think there's a subtle difference.


This is an interesting topic as well; a dominate horse vs a submissive horse.

I have the low man on the totem pole in any herd situation. He submits to every horse he is in a pasture with. He will half heartedly try to hold his ground, but I have never seen him back any other horse off.

With that said, when out on the trail and the other horses that push him, balk, stop, turn, backup because of something scary, guess who is called upon to lead the dominate horses through the scary gauntlet? The well trained, forward moving wussy horse. Every. Dang. Time. If the more dominate horses had been trained, or later ridden to be forward, they would not slow down, stop, back, spin, or rear. They would just go forward.

I think when we humans say the horse is dominate or submissive, therefore they need to be in the lead, or they can't go out on a trail, or they can only be worked for an hour, we are making excuses for bad behavior and/or poor training.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I will add some of my observations on this subject; actually these are 2 separate subjects.

I do not think a good work ethic and good (willing) forward impulsion are the same thing. They are related but not the same. Both are influenced and developed by a good trainer / rider but the best rider in the world cannot make chicken salad out of chicken 'other stuff' (if you know what I mean). Some horses just resent everything that is asked of them. They either 'blow up' or 'shut down' under pressure -- even light pressure. They are just very poor performance prospects. Some bloodlines are notorious for producing horses that lack a good work ethic and a willing, good attitude. Other bloodlines are notorious for getting frazzled over little and can take no pressure at all. 

Not all prospects are created equal. Some are a lot more 'trainable', are a lot more willing, develop a better work ethic and keep a better attitude when they are being asked for a LOT than others can ever give a trainer. A lack of a good work ethic and willingness or trainability has nothing to do with a horse being dominant or submissive. It is related to a horse's natural 'resistance' and willingness (or lack thereof). 

I think a trainer does the best job of developing a willing, well trained horse that offers very little resistance when that trainer asks for a lot early in training but stops short of asking for too much. There is a very fine line between asking for too little and demanding too much. Ask for too little and you are literally teaching a horse that they can 'quit' or offer little cooperation and you will accept it. You can baby a horse along and never have a horse with a good work ethic or any willingness that does little. On the other hand, you can demand too much and end up with a horse that is 'blown up' beyond fixing -- a horse that is a neurotic wreck. I've inherited blown up barrel horses, roping horses (have one of them now), race horses, cutters & reiners (have one of them, too) and jumping horses. Some fixed pretty well for a different occupation. Others never became half of the horse they would have with better training.

Willing forward impulsion is also about 90% (or more) training and maybe 10% ability. This does not mean that a lazy horse that does not move well could have been trained to be a dressage champion by the right trainer. It does not say anything about quality of movement or inherited ability to go on to great things. But, even a lazy horse can be trained to go forward anywhere its rider points its head. I think a good forward moving horse with the willingness to go anywhere while showing little resistance can be made from almost any prospect. I think forward impulsion needs to taught early in a horse's riding career. I do not think that a horse has to go fast, but it has to willingly speed up when asked. 

Some horses are born with a huge motor like a race car and others have the motor of a moped. But all can be taught to utilize what motor and ability they were blessed with to go forward. Having good willing forward impulsion only gives you one of the necessary ingredients you need to successfully train any horse for anything. It is not everything, but you sure have nothing without it. 

I am also convinced that a trainer best develops willing, 'honest' forward impulsion in the first few rides they put on any horse. It is the cornerstone of any well-trained horse -- one that goes anywhere you point its head.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Of course everyone wants a horse that will go where you point his head and at any speed you ask with some good forward impulsion.

And because I have a balky horse does NOT mean I am happy riding around the barn or doing ground work. For gosh sakes, I actually HATE groundwork. I would much rather be riding. I only do groundwork (round penning mainly) when my horse hasn't been out for a week or more, and I would like to get rid of even that.

What I have is a green horse with only about 2 1/2 months "professional" training and I am doing the best I know how with him. I try to make forward fun for both of us and we are working on gaiting (he is part Fox Trotter). Forward is fun! But I am not a trainer (even though I try my best) and at times he will stall out and I end up having to deal with it. 

But I ALWAYS win those battles. I never just give up and do what the horse wants. That is no way to ride a horse. We always continue up the hill or wherever we are going even if it means the horse pitches a fit because I have to smack him with a crop. So what would be really nice is some tips for dealing with that, not just saying folks with that problem are just content do do ground work. Thank you! 

I do think our issues come down to him not trusting me 100% as leader. And though I know the trainer probably dealt with him much better than I did, I know the trainer had problems with forward too, as he said I had the dullest sided colt (or one of the dullest) he had ever trained. So I know he had some impulsion issues too. My gelding is very soft on lateral movements even without spurs. He side-passes and moves his shoulders and hind quarters independently. So he isn't truly dull, he just will selectively tune out my cues when he has mind to. 

The trainer also said he "had no heart" whatever that means. I took that to mean he has a limited amount of try. :-x

Anyway, our last ride was one of our best yet. He is really is getting the hang of gaiting.  But I felt I should address this post because I was one of the folks posting about my horse stalling out.

We trail ride by the way. I definitely ask my horses to leave the barn and cover some miles.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I quoted from James Fillis's book earlier, so I ought to point out he varies his approach in teaching forward depending on the horse. For example, he says that for a nervous horse, punishing a refusal is the exact opposite of what you should do."The impressionability of a horse can be greatly diminished and modified by breaking. Custom establishes mutual confidence between horse and rider. If the animal has not been beaten, or violently forced up to the object of his alarm, and if the presence of his rider reassures him, instead of frightening him, he will soon become steady. It is a sound principle never to flog a horse which is frightened by some external object. We should, on the contrary, try to anticipate or remove the impression by "making much" of the animal.

I have already said that a horse has but little intelligence. He cannot reason, and has only memory. If he is beaten when an object suddenly comes before him and startles him, he will connect in his mind the object and the punishment. If he again sees the same object, he will expect the same punishment, his fear will become increased, and he will naturally try to escape all the more violently....

...My only advice about the management of nervous horses is to give them confidence by "making much of them." If we see in front of us an object which we know our horse will be afraid of, we should not force him to go up to it. Better let him at first go away from it, and then gently induce him to approach it, without bullying him too much. Work him in this way for several days, as long as may be necessary. Never bring him so close up to the object in question that he will escape or spin round ; because in this case we will be obliged to punish him ; not for his fear, but on account of his spinning round, which we should not tolerate at any time. In punishing him, we will confuse in his mind the fear of punishment and the fear caused by the object. In a word, *with nervous horses we should use much gentleness, great patience, and no violence*." (pg 186)​That described Mia...still does, somewhat. If she became frightened in a snaffle, she would try to turn and run. We would then do 3-4-5 turns, she'd finally quit trying to run - but the fight would confirm her fear as valid. She cannot distinguish between genuine fear and the high emotion of our struggle. Happily, with a curb bit, she stopped fighting and gave in. Since she didn't fight the bit, and since the scary thing didn't harm her, there was nothing to confirm her fear.

However, Fillis's next paragraph goes on to describe a different approach for a horse who is refusing to go forward because he is barn sour. 

Much later, on a very different matter, he brings up what the stumbling block has been for Mia & I - my lack of "tact":"We should keep calm, and at the slightest sign of cadence, that is to say, at the first, or later on, at the second time, we should stop using the "aids", pat the horse's neck, give him time to become quiet, and begin again.

A horseman who has great delicacy and tact, will stop the animal at the first time and pat him. But the less tact he has, the less capable is he of judging if the time is in cadence. Such a man will continue in his attempts to catch the cadence, and will succeed only in upsetting the nerves of his horse. These remarks explain the fact that a clever and tactful horseman will obtain all he wants from his mount, without making him either vicious or unsound. Being able to recognize the slightest sign of obedience, he immediately stops the work, in order to make the horse understand, by pats on the neck, that he has done well. The quickness with which he perceives the slightest signs, saves him from overtaxing and disgusting the horse, and provoking him to battle, which will wear them both out. wink

The unskilful rider, who is slow in catching the cadence, will continue to use the spur, in order to obtain several cadenced times, and to be sure he is right, and will thus punish the horse, who, not knowing why he is punished, will defend himself, while the rider is spurring him. The result will be, that when he wants the horse to again do the passage, the animal will think he is going to be punished, and will become mad at the approach of the spurs.

Hence, *the important point is to recognize the slightest signs of good will, and to be content with little*. If the horse does not fear the approach of the legs, and if we are not too exacting, a time will always arrive when he will take up the cadence of the passage with ease and pleasure. We may then ask more ; because, as the horse understands us, there will be no fear of over-exciting his nervous system." (pg 284)​For all her faults and mine, Mia started with a trust in the good will of humans, and that has been preserved during our years together. If progress has been slow, that underlying trust at least has never been destroyed. As I progress as a rider, and develop some equine "tact", I can help her progress.

It seems to me teaching a horse to be forward and confident requires at least as much tact as teaching a _passage_ would. I'm certain a good horseman with ranch work to do could make more progress with Mia in a week than I will during the next year...but I don't have a ranch, the desert here is filled with rocks and cactus everywhere, and I'm not a skilled horseman.

Folks talk about training a horse based on the horse's schedule. In this case, it may be that my schedule - how fast I can learn - will be the limiting factor. :-| I think I need to learn to anticipate her tension or fear, and learn to push her when she is uncertain, but let it be MY decision to change course before she hits the point of actual fear. There are times to fight and times to make sure a fight never begins, and I need to learn to distinguish between the two!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Sorry trail rider. I was not trying to pick on you or anyone else. 

With your description of your horse and the trainer's evaluation of him, I think he has an inherently poor work ethic. He is a poor prospect because he does not have a willing and trainable attitude. He is a case of trying to make chicken salad out of chicken 'other stuff' -- not your fault.

Now for the forward impulsion problem -- You have quite likely made it worse by nagging and pecking on him. 'Dead sided' and 'dead headed' horses get much worse from being nagged at. They just tune it all out. The good news is that you can influence it to some degree if you are not expecting miracles. This is what I would do:

I would ask him nicely to move out -- say from a walk to a brisk trot (or a running walk in your case). When he did not move willingly right on out, I would try to eat his butt up by using the 'over and under' technique of spanking one with heavy harness leather reins. BUT, I would hold him back while I did it. I do not want a horse to think they only have to move out because they are being spanked. 

Then, I would settle him back down and ask 'nicely' for him to move out. If he did not move right out, I would spank him again -- hard. Again, I would not let him move out right away. Then, I would gather him up and ask again nicely. Most dead sided horses move out as long as you do not fall back into the pattern of nagging at them.

If you can not get him to wake up at all to your aids, I think you need to recognize that you have poured way too much into a poor prospect with a poor work ethic. You need to recognize that all horses are not created equal. There is a reason breeders like us select our stock mainly for disposition and trainability. They come with a 'built-in' good work ethic -- not being dominant and not having a big motor -- just a willingness to yield to the wishes of their rider. If this horse is not fun to ride and does not develop a better work ethic, I would re-home him to a Hippo-therapy program for the handicapped. You can get up to a $5000.00 tax deduction and he will be happy not being nagged at because he is slow and lazy -- a dog, so to speak.


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## Cielo Notturno (Sep 12, 2013)

Cherie said:


> This is what I would do:
> 
> I would ask him nicely to move out -- say from a walk to a brisk trot (or a running walk in your case). When he did not move willingly right on out, I would try to eat his butt up by using the 'over and under' technique of spanking one with heavy harness leather reins. BUT, I would hold him back while I did it. I do not want a horse to think they only have to move out because they are being spanked.


I know that you have way more experience than me, but I can't agree with this reasoning. The "spanking" you describe is a human-like punishment, you are not asking the horse to do anything other than taking it. You are not giving him any chance to do things right on the moment and avoid the pain. 

You're literally telling the horse "Go. Not going? Never mind I changed my mind, now stand still whilst I beat you." Why are you asking the horse to stand still when what you wanted is for him to move? You just asked for something else, and then punished the horse anyway. I find it cruel. 

I don't believe that horses can understand punishments the way humans do. It's not like I'm against hitting a horse if there is need, but there must be a correct behavior that the horse can do instead of the one I'm chastising. The whole pressure-release thing is supposed to work if the horse can choose to do the "right thing" when you are giving pressure, not after you decide that you're done with your tantrum. A horse can't possibly understand that he behaved badly and therefore he deserves a spanking.


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

Forward is a must have, the ones that like to suck back are the worst and most dangerous. A work ethic is a huge plus and a must for the youth and ammy horses. The open level horses there is some flex on, but I never accept a NO response EVER! This includes both horses and kids tho. The answer will always be yes or as my kids say " if mom says jump just ask how high as no other answer will end well "


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Hmmm...accepting a "No" once meant not stepping on a rattler. I don't always know best, even if I am a grandfather...:wink:


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## DreaMy (Jul 1, 2014)

You know if horses (or people) never challenged me I would never learn a darn thing. 

Something that I was taught was if you ask your horse to do something (aside from stop) to let them do whatever they need to do to figure it out but stop or slow down. Sure it has taken me over a few unexpected jumps, I've been backed into a fence or two (backed up a pile of sawdust once :rofl but it gets the point across that I am not going to let something go. 

I was riding my trainer's mare once and she refused to back up so I just sat back and left my hands exactly where they were. We started in the center of the arena, she backed up into just about everything, knocked down a standard, tripped over some trot poles, cut herself on some fence. Did she know where everything in that arena was? Absolutely. If she had backed up straight like I asked she wouldn't have gotten with in 5 feet of anything, but she chose to try and wriggle her way out of it. When she got herself together and backed the 10 (straight) feet that I wanted I let her go, that was all I wanted anyways, she chose to make it difficult so it was. _All I did was keep a steady pressure on the reins_ (If she planted her feet and stopped I would have gotten her feet moving, if she went forwards, left or right I would have just kept cuing with steady pressure). _I only ramp it up if they aren't giving me a response with the appropriate amount of energy_


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Cielo Notturno said:


> I know that you have way more experience than me, but I can't agree with this reasoning. The "spanking" you describe is a human-like punishment, you are not asking the horse to do anything other than taking it. You are not giving him any chance to do things right on the moment and avoid the pain.
> 
> I don't want to have to hit him again to make him go forward WILLINGLY! I want him to listen to my lightly squeezed leg. The last thing I want to do is to have to spank or spur him every time I want him to respond with a nice forward move. If I let him go forward, that is what I would have accomplished instead of teaching him to listen to my 'soft' leg.
> 
> ...


The dead sided horse that has tuned out a 'light squeeze' years ago can still feel (and flinch his skin) when a fly lands on his ribs. He is NOT dead sided -- he has just tuned his rider out. When you spur or spank a horse 2 or 3 times in quick succession without letting him go forward, you are telling him the LISTEN to the calf of your leg. Almost without fail, after 1 (or 2 at the most) of these quick lessons, the horse will "Yes Mam! I'll listen to your leg now!" 

So, I find it MUCH more humane to spank or spur a horse hard a couple of times and then have him listen to a light squeeze than constantly pecking at him and gouging him with spurs to just get him to walk out fast or lope off. I assure you that it works.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

From what Cherie has said "horses tune out nagging", my horse and me are the poster pair for this statement. I got my mare when I was 13, she was 5 (and already spoiled) a classic 'should not work' pair. I've made plenty of mistakes along the way, but the biggest one honestly was being too kind. Being too kind and patient did not make any difference for the horse, only made me really upset and frustrated and then I would lose my temper and screw things up even more.

Liberty training has taught me a lot about timing, leadership, and bond. The dressage trainer I apprenticed under for a while would ask my horse twice, then demand. I've learned the hard way with this horse that it is ask once, then demand. She completely tunes out nagging.

Sure, I've tried spurs and several different kinds of whips. I've taken countless lunge lessons and developed a very secure and confident seat. I've come a long way in my riding. But my mare got so used to me taking the bare minimum that she wouldn't put anything else out. On the ground was a different story, she was fantastic, athletic, wonderful liberty horse that can really strut her stuff. Under saddle, she thought she was running the show.

A couple weeks ago, I decided I was done with it. I was done with carrying a dressage whip whenever riding because that was the only way she would behave. When I go back to jumping lessons this winter, I wanted to surprise my instructor with a forward moving, well behaved horse that didn't duck out on jumps and I didn't have to fight. So I ditched the whips, crops, spurs, and even jumps and we went back to transitions. I would ask her to trot with a gentle squeeze, no response-she got smacked three times barrel racer style with the reins. She threw a temper tantrum, half reared, and then instantly went into a trot. We've only done two sessions so far (riding this way) and she is already light on the leg and forward moving. The last session I only had it out with her twice. Because of the mistakes I have made and the previous half hearted attempts, one smack doesn't work. All it does is make her buck and balk, in that order. So I have to smack three times, make sure I don't have contact on the reins so she feels no resistance, and drive forward with leg pressure no kicking. I want a horse that will enter the jumping ring, no crop needed, only using the lightest of aids never kicking or even bumping, and will give their all. When I set her up right, she will fly over those jumps like they are not even there. She will give her all over the jumps, so if I can establish forward movement and rhythm on the flat, I think we could get a few ribbons to show all our hard work!

I still feel terrible about smacking her this way, but I would rather do that a few times for a few weeks than constantly be fighting her tooth and nail and always having to smack her with the whip. Since starting this, she has become much more sensitive and actually paid more attention to me, because if she ignores that first signal she's going to get smacked. Even on the ground she listened better and started actually walking out and producing a ground covering walk for the first time in her life, with only a click of the tongue for a signal! (exaggeration, but she's one of those turtle horses you don't want to be stuck behind on the trail).

I think if she was a nervous type horse, I wouldn't do this, but then again we likely wouldn't have such issues because nervous horses have less problems with being forward (and more problems with stopping I think). She's the lazier type, the "why should I?" type, but also extremely athletic. You'd think she was an arab or warmblood the way she floats when she moves out, and as far as gaits go she's a dream to ride, so smooth! So once we establish forward impulsion and a good work ethic, I think we can do great things.

So the short answer to my lengthy story, yes, forward impulsion is extremely important. However, I've known a few horses who were very light on the leg and forward, but did not always go everywhere their rider pointed their head.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Cherie said:


> The dead sided horse that has tuned out a 'light squeeze' years ago can still feel (and flinch his skin) when a fly lands on his ribs. He is NOT dead sided -- he has just tuned his rider out. When you spur or spank a horse 2 or 3 times in quick succession without letting him go forward, you are telling him the LISTEN to the calf of your leg. Almost without fail, after 1 (or 2 at the most) of these quick lessons, the horse will "Yes Mam! I'll listen to your leg now!"
> 
> So, I find it MUCH more humane to spank or spur a horse hard a couple of times and then have him listen to a light squeeze than constantly pecking at him and gouging him with spurs to just get him to walk out fast or lope off. I assure you that it works.


haha funny! Posted at the same time I posted my story and reason for following this method! :lol:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

my friend's horse is like a horse with two sides; in the arena, he will hang back and resist, and need to be pushed . 
out on the trail, he is forward as anything. 

jumping in an arena? slow and disinterested. jumping over a log that blocks the trail? he's a tiger!
it's becuase he sees purpose in going down the trail, and none in arena work. when we trail ride, we have an objective and the horse clues into that. we are directionally focussed. in the arena, it's more like we get focussed on the horse UNDER us and forget about going somewhere. 
some horses need to see a real purpose in riding out to be interested and willing to give their all. they are usually the smarter ones.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

If I understood her correctly, Cielo Notturno's point was NOT that someone is wrong in ramping up pressure, but in applying pressure without any release:

"_I would try to eat his butt up by using the 'over and under' technique of spanking one with heavy harness leather reins. BUT, I would hold him back while I did it. I do not want a horse to think they only have to move out because they are being spanked_."

If you are teaching a horse to move forward at a softer cue when they do not know the meaning of the softer cue, then you ask the horse to move forward with ascending pressure: kiss, light squeeze, firm squeeze, light bump, hard bump, kick, crop (or whip). The horse will eventually move forward (hopefully), but the horse will also eventually figure out "I always get a bump before a kick/crop, so I might as well move at the bump". Eventually, the horse learns that the kiss sound means go faster.

However, if you have a horse who already knows that a kiss means go faster, then there is no reason to follow the same progression in pressure. For that horse, you might go kiss, squeeze, crop...and a hard crop at that. The horse then learns that the kiss is not a request, but a demand that will rapidly turn into something the horse doesn't like. Otherwise it can become dull, insisting on the rider cueing and cueing until the horse feels like obeying a cue it already knows.

But if you kiss, and then whip and at the same time hold the horse back, you are punishing the horse without giving it release. I guess I can see where many horses would accept it as punishment, but I don't see where it would have any advantage over simply jumping from kiss to something much harder.

There is a big difference between nagging (repeatedly applying a cue that the horse doesn't NEED to obey) and jumping immediately in pressure to a much higher level. The first will dull the horse while the second keeps the softness that you worked to teach. But I don't see much reason for going from a kiss to BOTH holding the reins back and whipping the horse.

I haven't ridden hundreds of horses. However, I'm pretty sure both holding Mia back with the reins and whipping her at the same time would achieve Fillis's "_provoking him to battle_" description. She'll accept harsh treatment at my hands if she sees it as fair. Giving a stop and go cue at the same time with harshness on both would not be seen as fair...just harsh.


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## DreaMy (Jul 1, 2014)

bsms said:


> I haven't ridden hundreds of horses. However, I'm pretty sure both holding Mia back with the reins and whipping her at the same time would achieve Fillis's "_provoking him to battle_" description. She'll accept harsh treatment at my hands if she sees it as fair. Giving a stop and go cue at the same time with harshness on both would not be seen as fair...just harsh.


I used to ride a little old (almost 30 year old) arab mare, I rode her for ~5 years and leased her for ~3 I could hop on her and kiss and she would pick up a lope... but that's not where I'm going with this story.

She was the horse that we would put everyone on, kids especially because she would just light up with a little one on her back. One day there was a little boy who wanted to trot but was flopping all around with his hands, yanking on her mouth etc. (The instructors told him he needed to stay at a walk BTW) A few minutes in the instructor goes to grab the mare by the reins and make the kid get off, I swear at that exact moment the mare took off BUCKING just absolute bronc like bucking until the kid was on the ground, stopped immediately and looked at him and the instructor.

Tl;dr: The point is that I was always taught to stay out of a horses mouth. I think they appreciate it.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Horseluvr -- You've got the idea - up to a point. BUT, by letting this horse go forward when you spank him, you are going to create a horse that will need spanked in order to get impulsion. This is NOT what you want.

Let's go back a ways....to the old standard method of getting impulsion. Bear in mind that it works -- to a point -- on horses that have an inherently good work ethic and are not terribly dull and insensitive by nature. Many people will say to do things in this order:
1) ask lightly
2) ask a little harder
3) keep upping the pressure until the horse moves forward
To summarize -- you apply the least amount of pressure that it takes to get the horse to go forward.

The naturally light horse with a good work ethic gets the idea and starts moving forward to the light 'ask'. 

On the other hand, do this with the naturally insensitive horse with a lousy work ethic and you find you are having to keep applying more and more pressure. You go to wearing spurs and /or carrying a whip. You find you are having to nag and nag and put more and more pressure to just get this horse to go. There is no such thing with him as 'free, forward movement with good impulsion'. There is only nagging and spanking to get minimal effort out of him.

Now, Horseluvr - this is still what you are doing. You have just decided that your horse has more to give you so you are upping the pressure to a hard spanking. But, since you have to do it frequently, you have not transferred the message to the horse that he should listen ALL of the time to a light squeeze.

To get him to listen all of the time to a light squeeze, you need to hold him back and NOT let him go forward because he is being spanked. Then, release him, set him back up and ask him lightly. This is WHY this works. 

Most novice riders fail at using this method. I hesitated to even discuss it because most novice riders turn it around and either get the horse more dull to even more pressure or they start using the sight of the long reins or whip as a threat and the horse still will not move forward freely without the weapon in hand. This has not gained them anything.

How can you tell if you are doing it right? If the horse starts listening to a light squeeze, you are doing it right. If not, you have just upped the pressure to a new level of nagging.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

bsms said:


> Hmmm...accepting a "No" once meant not stepping on a rattler. I don't always know best, even if I am a grandfather...:wink:


I have and will accept NO from a horse that was trained correctly and moves out willingly and freely. My horse has said 'no' a few times, and it did save us from a nasty outcome. But keep in mind, he is forward.

If a horse has not been trained to move forward, how can the rider trust the 'no'?


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> In the UK most arenas are 20m x 40m, the size of a small dressage arena and I really feel that this is not big enough to ride a young horse away in.
> 
> I long rein and pony any horse I am breaking out and about so, when it comes time to ride them I will rode them straight out on the roads and tracks, usually on their own. I will give them plenty of trotting and a couple of canters. I have a contact on the reins but in no way am I restricting them.
> My aim is to get them going forward. They have seen all there is to see on the routes from being driven and led.
> ...


 This is why I ride a newly backed horse in the field so we can move freely before we start hacking out , my immediate road is too dangerous to pony or long rein on.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Cherie said:


> So, I find it MUCH more humane to spank or spur a horse hard a couple of times and then have him listen to a light squeeze than constantly pecking at him and gouging him with spurs to just get him to walk out fast or lope off. I assure you that it works.


 
Interestingly I have just started using spurs and had previously avoided them as I wanted my haflinger to be light off my leg without such measures (with a schooling whip as back up), now having tried spurs I find I just need to think the aid and use my seat and a squeeze to get a beautiful walk canter transition that previously I had to kick her to achieve. By using the spurs briefly I now have to use much less force with her.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

When I took my first BHS exams many years ago, I was riding one of the school horses, a lumpy grey horse that was so dead sided he would barely move - nor, I was told, would he canter.

Great when you are taking an exam, understanding that you need to show you can ride different types of horses but this was an extreme. 

We were not allowed spurs so all I had was me and a whip. We had 20 minutes to ride before the exam started and after five of these and trying to be 'nice' with light aids I gave up and when I applied my leg I applied the whip with some force, one behind my right leg, one to the left and another to the right, all applied in about a second. 
I had that horse cantering, moving off the leg and going forward by the time we started the exam. 

During the riding section we had to swap horses several times and it was interesting to see that with different riders this horse soon fell back into being dead sided and no one else managed to get him to canter all the way around the arena. 

I hate nagging whether it is having to nag a horse or a person, say what you mean and mean what you say.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

I was at a clinic last year and watched an instructor get on a very reluctant horse that just would not move forward, she asked nicely for a canter and the horse refused so she smacked him (behind her leg) until he went forward and then she repeated the request, again he refused and was then smacked until he went forward, by the time he was asked for a third canter he had got the idea and moved smartly of her leg no crop needed. It was a very clear practical lesson with an immediate successful result. The horse's usual rider had been randomly smacking him to move off but this lesson meant all of that could stop if she kept to the same firm clear instructions.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

"If you are teaching a horse to move forward at a softer cue when they do not know the meaning of the softer cue, then you ask the horse to move forward with ascending pressure: kiss, light squeeze, firm squeeze, light bump, hard bump, kick, crop (or whip). The horse will eventually move forward (hopefully), but the horse will also eventually figure out "I always get a bump before a kick/crop, so I might as well move at the bump". Eventually, the horse learns that the kiss sound means go faster."

You just gave the horse seven cues, or nagging hints, to get it right. After the time lapse from the first kiss, to the crop, the horse probably forgot what was being asked.

Do you ask your children seven times to take out the trash, do their dishes, rake leaves, clean the horse poop from the paddock? I bet not.

The one time my boys decided to ignore the rule of placing ones dishes in the dishwasher, was the last time. Because I upped the pressure; they had to do my dishes, their dads, the pots and pans, especially the broiler pan, wash down the cabinets, countertops, and stove top, and then mop the floor.

I went from the 'kiss' to the 'crop' real fast and real hard. They never leave a dish in the sink now. In fact they will take the clean dishes out of the dishwasher in order to put their dishes in the dishwasher.

If I had nagged those two boys seven times, I would have lost not only the proverbial battle, but the proverbial war, too.

I think many people do 'up the pressure', but to slowly, and infrequently, that the horse learns to ignore.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> "If you are teaching a horse to move forward at a softer cue when they do not know the meaning of the softer cue, then you ask the horse to move forward with ascending pressure: kiss, light squeeze, firm squeeze, light bump, hard bump, kick, crop (or whip). The horse will eventually move forward (hopefully), but the horse will also eventually figure out "I always get a bump before a kick/crop, so I might as well move at the bump". Eventually, the horse learns that the kiss sound means go faster."
> 
> You just gave the horse seven cues, or nagging hints, to get it right. After the time lapse from the first kiss, to the crop, the horse probably forgot what was being asked.
> 
> ...




But when teaching a horse you may get the correct reply at just the kiss, or the light squeeze...and never need any more than that, so you have to start there before upping the anti to find the point of resistance. If it takes 7 asks then the next time you ask once with a light squeeze and then enforce it so they understand, then ask again with the light squeeze. This way they learn to be light off the leg.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> "If you are teaching a horse to move forward at a softer cue when they do not know the meaning of the softer cue, then you ask the horse to move forward with ascending pressure: kiss, light squeeze, firm squeeze, light bump, hard bump, kick, crop (or whip). The horse will eventually move forward (hopefully), but the horse will also eventually figure out "I always get a bump before a kick/crop, so I might as well move at the bump". Eventually, the horse learns that the kiss sound means go faster."
> 
> You just gave the horse seven cues, or nagging hints, to get it right. After the time lapse from the first kiss, to the crop, the horse probably forgot what was being asked.
> 
> Do you ask your children seven times to take out the trash, do their dishes, rake leaves, clean the horse poop from the paddock? I bet not...


Please go back and READ what I wrote. "If you are teaching a horse to move forward at a softer cue when they do not know the meaning of the softer cue..."

I do not assume a horse knows what a cue is by instinct. They must first be taught the cue. That is not nagging. That is teaching.

My post then went on to say:

"However, if you have a horse who already knows that a kiss means go faster, then there is no reason to follow the same progression in pressure. For that horse, you might go kiss, squeeze, crop...and a hard crop at that..."

Yes, I use a different approach with a horse who doesn't know what a cue means than I do with a horse who does, just as I use a different approach with a toddler than I use with an 8 year old, and another still for a 15 year old. I don't "_ask your children seven times to take out the trash_" before they know how to speak...



Cherie said:


> Horseluvr -- You've got the idea - up to a point. BUT, by letting this horse go forward when you spank him, you are going to create a horse that will need spanked in order to get impulsion. This is NOT what you want....
> 
> ...How can you tell if you are doing it right? If the horse starts listening to a light squeeze, you are doing it right. If not, you have just upped the pressure to a new level of nagging.


It might be that some horses need to be held back while spanked. My sample size of three horses isn't very impressive. However, I've never tried holding them back while upping the pressure, and they all go fine.

If one goes from a kiss to a light squeeze and then, since the horse knows full well (thru previous training) what you want and is refusing, goes to a much 'harsher' level of pressure (a light kick for Mia, a very hard smack with a crop for a lesson horse I once rode), then the horse is still being punished and not nagged.

In fact, that was the point I tried to make in post #3 on this thread, citing James Fillis:










You do not punish a horse for not understanding a cue it has not been taught. If you do need to punish a horse, then you need to do so strongly enough for the horse to decide it does not want a repeat. As I was told once:

"_Sometimes you have to take the horse where you don't want to go, so the horse won't want to go there either!_"

I just don't see how going from kiss/light squeeze to a kick of the heels (in Mia's case) without holding Mia back at the same time is "nagging". And since I've probably needed to kick her with my heels once in the last year or so, and most changes in gear are done at a kiss, it works - for us.

If she is genuinely afraid of something ahead, then whipping her isn't going to get anything good to happen. Like Fillis said, that only gets her to associate the whipping with the 'scary thing' and make her more afraid, not less. There is a difference between a horse who doesn't understand a cue, a horse who understands but doesn't feel like obeying, and a horse who is too scared to understand much, if anything. The "equine tact" I mentioned earlier is discerning between those horses and acting appropriately for each.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

When I got my first horse (when I was 12) and knew little (I really believed The Black Stallion and Flicka!) I made him dead sided. When it got to the point where I had to swing BOTH legs out almost horizontally and bring them into his sides to get a trot, it was time to do something else. 

Fortunately I was in Pony Club and one of the instructors helped me and taught me FORWARD and how to retrain this horse to be FORWARD on a the lightest of cues. I learned so darn much. I used Cherie's technique and if that was not enough a dressage whip behind and almost ON my leg when I gave a gentle touch was the back up convincer. 

This is a horse I eventually taught a Levade to.. and the horse who would do a lot of other dressage moves.. He was not a world class horse but he taught me hugely after I untaught him all he knew when I got him. 

He was forward when asked. His work ethic was less than stellar but he recognized there was no choice. I won a 30 mile competitive trail ride on him and he was VERY forward. 

I believe that some of this is genetically hard wired. It can be taught to most any horse.. but the great ones have it "in there" like an ingredient in cake. 

No question as to the importance of Forward. Forward wards off all kinds of bad stuff and creates energy for the good stuff!!!


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

How different a 'punishment' is swatting them (while holding them back) from swatting them and expecting them to run, do figure-8s or other hard work? I know that if I ask for a nice walk and get a drunken stagger, I am not going to swat them and settle for a nice walk... not at all. If they don't give me that nice walk on the polite request, they're going to be trotting, cantering, circles or what have you- the point being that it would have been easier (for the horse) to have just walked when I asked nicely. Either way IS punishment of a sort- you're not, at that point, asking for the original response, you're enforcing that NOT giving the appropriate response when asked nicely has unpleasant consequences.

Now, I am not a good enough rider to do the former because I don't know that I have the timing or skill to try it without it resulting in bucking, rearing, sourness, sideways or any other manner of thing I cannot handle. So when I swat, I want the door to forward movement WIDE open. Because forward, even disjointed half-bolting forward, I can deal with. Safer for me. Maybe slower training though, because then, rather than having the chance to ask nicely immediately and imprint the correct response, I do have to set up the situation all over again to make that polite request. ...interesting. Good food for thought.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Sharpie said:


> How different a 'punishment' is swatting them (while holding them back) from swatting them and expecting them to run, do figure-8s or other hard work? I know that if I ask for a nice walk and get a drunken stagger, I am not going to swat them and settle for a nice walk... not at all. If they don't give me that nice walk on the polite request, they're going to be trotting, cantering, circles or what have you- the point being that it would have been easier (for the horse) to have just walked when I asked nicely. Either way IS punishment of a sort- you're not, at that point, asking for the original response, you're enforcing that NOT giving the appropriate response when asked nicely has unpleasant consequences.


See, I've been there and done that with a lot of the things people are saying. I've done the "you don't want to walk when asked so you're going to work harder". What it did was make her better at doing the harder stuff, but she would still not produce a nice walk. Its like you ask for one thing and then you are going to cue for something different since they didn't listen, but the horse already forgot what you asked originally so they don't even make the connection that they are having to work harder because they didn't listen. I've learned first hand how quickly horses "forget" things and move on to the next. You have to be quick with praise and quick with discipline. While being in the midst of retraining my horse to be forward, I'm also retraining her to know that good girl does not equal whoa. She thought good girl meant stop because I used to only say good girl when she was stopped. It became more of a release word, whereas I want her to know 'good girl' means "good you're doing what I want, but that doesn't mean stop". More of a reassurance word that she is doing what I want so she isn't wondering. She responds very well to praise.

Prompt cues make for a prompt horse. But the rider/trainer also has to have a developed sense of timing and individualize to the horse and its training and age. You have to be slower for some horses and quicker for others. However I think for any horse, 4 successive cues/aids should be the max, because as I have stated, they tend to have short term memory when it comes to riding/handling especially the young ones. This doesn't mean they don't remember the bad or good experiences though. I also say 4 cues max because if I was starting a horse to ride, I likely would have already built the foundation on the ground and trained the horse to voice cues and probably ground driven as well, so the horse should already be familiar with rein cues and understand that click means walk, click again means trot, and kiss means canter. This makes under saddle training much more pleasant for both horse and rider.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Cherie said:


> Horseluvr -- You've got the idea - up to a point. BUT, by letting this horse go forward when you spank him, you are going to create a horse that will need spanked in order to get impulsion. This is NOT what you want.
> 
> Let's go back a ways....to the old standard method of getting impulsion. Bear in mind that it works -- to a point -- on horses that have an inherently good work ethic and are not terribly dull and insensitive by nature. Many people will say to do things in this order:
> 1) ask lightly
> ...


But then I feel I must be doing it right as she has become very light on my leg and I hardly ever have to go to the spanking, and that's after only two sessions. I'm going out now to go the third and will be back with the result. 

I'm hesitant to get in her face, as this mare has reared every time she's been reprimanded this way. I risk going over backwards from hanging on to her face. We'll see how light she is on the leg today. I'll keep your method in mind and maybe try it out, depending on how it goes. I'm just not sure yet and I've learned the hard way that I should follow my gut especially when it comes to this particular horse.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

when Cherie first brought up this method in another similar thread, a year or so ago, I was confused as to how spanking but holding back could possibly be better than spanking and allowing the response of a leap forward (what you will get ).

the thing that I understood is this:

1. you want the horse to respond to a soft cue. if you up the cue strength from a level 1 to a 2, to a 3, a 4 and then ballistic, allow the horse to go forward, and do this enough, horse soon learns that he can ignore your requests , right up to just below ballistic, in other words he can ignore levels 1, 2, 3, and only respond with REAL forward to a level 4 cue, and he will still avoid a spanking. you will soon tire of going all the way to level 4, you will back off, little by little , accepting a lesser response from him and he can continue being lazy. occasionally, you up the ante, and he knows just where how high he can push it without getting a spanking, or he takes the spanking, knowing this will get you off his back for a while until he can work things back down again.

you want the horse to NOT think there is wiggle room. so, you put on the big spanking but do not allow him out of it. it's more of a wake up, shock and awe tactics, making him look for a new way out. then, you offer him a soft cue, with open hands and forward intention in your seat, and he'll gladly take that way out.



2. You want a quality depart, not a LEAP forward. you dont' want a frantic jump, or a resentful lunge. you want a steady depart to a faster gait. So, when you spank, and the hrose leaps forward,as he will, you do not accept that. that is not what you wanted. you want a simple depart. that's why, now that you have the horse's attention, you ask again , nicely, for the thing that you want,( a nice depart) and give the hrose another chance to find the right answer


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

OK, to everyone who is doubting the holding back part of Cherie's method as I was, here is what happened just now while I was riding:

Getting Chan out, she was in a bad mood. All through grooming and tacking she was threatening to bite (which btw, I DO NOT allow) and just being a horrid grump. You remember how I was talking about my gut instinct with this horse? Well, as soon as I got on my gut was telling me that what I had been doing was not working. As I asked for her to move out, she flipped her tail and balked. So I took the end of my reins and slapped her hard and fast four times while holding her back. She did not rear up and flip over like I was worried about but rather backed up ten really fast steps in shock. Then she moved forward nicely off my leg when asked again. After that I only had to remind her a couple of times and she did lovely transitions the whole time and was sweet as pie. Doing this in no way effected our bond in a negative way. It actually gave her an attitude adjustment and she even gave me a few affectionate nuzzles while I was spraying her off. I even set up a low jump and she went well over it. She also paid more attention to me, and I wasn't dead tired by the time we were done (which is very rare).

So this does in fact, work. I just experienced first hand how well it works. And tinyliny did an excellent job of explaining why it works.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I understand doing a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 for teaching the cue, and possibly 1,4 for a horse that already knows what 1 means.

I guess with Mia, we normally shift gears at 1. Because we've been together for 6 years now, and the give-take between us is part of what I enjoy in riding, we'll sometimes do:

"1"

"Do I have to? It is hot out!"

"2"

"OK..."

I've probably done "1, 2, 4" once in the last year, and then a kick of the heels got her going with a slightly offended air, although she knew full well why 4 happened. I'm not going to pretend I understand "1, now I'm holding you back with the reins and 6! 6! 6!". It might work with some horses or even most horses, but it just isn't needed for any of my three.

It could be their backgrounds. Mia, unless afraid of something ahead, is good about going. Trooper was spurred viciously shortly before we got him, leaving scars on his sides. He was on the "You can do no wrong program" for a long time, and he is by nature a horse who is going to give his best if he can figure out what you want. Cowboy is rarely ridden, but he has plenty of get up and go...all 13 hands of him will get up and go, go, go!

It may just be that my horses don't need much punishment. If they don't do something, it almost always means either A) they are genuinely scared, or B) they don't understand the cue. In any case, my signature line explains how I would approach it first...but I have the luxury of having owned them for 2-6 years...we all read each other fairly well.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> I guess with Mia, we normally shift gears at 1. Because we've been together for 6 years now, and the give-take between us is part of what I enjoy in riding, we'll sometimes do:


No! The reason you do not need to do this with Mia is because she is a different kind of horse. She is reactive, sensitive, not lazy, has a good work ethic and has good forward impulsion. You, nor anyone else, would never, never, ever have to spank and hold back any horse like her. She would go bonkers trying to figure out where to go. 

This method of training and 'tuning' up a horse is only needed on a horse that has a poor work ethic (lack of willingness) is dull and insensitive, lacks impulsion,and has tuned out their rider because of constant nagging. Caroline analyzed it perfectly. It is a 'wake-up call' that says something like "Dummy -- pay attention to me or ELSE!" And then give him a chance to respond correctly to the light, pleasant aid.

Very few novice riders ever figure this out. Actually, few professional trainers ever figure this out. Most just get meaner and rougher, spur harder and nag with more pain until there are no 'tune-ups' left or the horse becomes sour and too ill to show. If a trainer gets very good at this, they can keep any 'finished' horse so light that they will keep a good attitude, a quiet tail (won't need to be blocked) and the horse will keep on responding to a lightly squeezed upper calf; They will not need to feel a spur or a whip very often and when they do respond sluggishly, one good spanking while being held back is all that is needed.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I think Cherie was saying that this technique is not something for a horse that has just gotten a bit dull, but rather for a hrose that is really dull, has no good work ethic or has been really spoiled by long term escalating nagging.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Thank you, Cherie, for clarifying ("_This method of training and 'tuning' up a horse is only needed on a horse that has a poor work ethic_"). I think you are right about Mia: "_She would go bonkers trying to figure out where to go_." 

I think I've been very lucky to have, by chance, ended up with horses who are sensitive and willing. I don't doubt that limited exposure warps my views on horses and their training, but it is a nice thing for someone who is 56 and whose horse may be both his first horse and his last, hopefully with many years between...:wink:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Most of these problems start because short cuts were made at the very beginning - lack of lunging, incorrect lunging and no use of long reining prior to getting on the horse
A correctly lunged horse knows it has to go forward independent of other horses before the rider even gets on it and should know some form of verbal cues to ask for that forward movement that are then used alongside leg cues until you have them established.
Body language is all well and good but they can't see your body when you're on board
The other type of unwilling horse is the one that's been ridden inconsiderately and has just got sick to death with it all - and too many 'wet saddles' on an unfit horse can cause this attitude.
My understanding of wet saddles is that its wet because its soaked with sweat
In the early days a horse needs consistent work, it needs to understand 100% what's being asked of it and it needs to enjoy what its doing because a begrudging horse will never be a truly willing one and first chance they get with a less dominant rider they regress back to the way they were


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> Let's go back a ways....to the old standard method of getting impulsion. Bear in mind that it works -- to a point -- on horses that have an inherently good work ethic and are not terribly dull and insensitive by nature. Many people will say to do things in this order:
> 1) ask lightly
> 2) ask a little harder
> 3) keep upping the pressure until the horse moves forward
> ...


 I have had a few people tell me this. Maybe its true if you are asking the same way with every horse, but every horse is different. For example, my cousins percherons. All pretty green for riding. The old mare is dull, dull, dull. Her son is a supersensitive worrier that bolts whenever he's scared. I use "ask, tell, demand" with both, but for the mare it might mean a slight squeeze, followed by a solid amount of heel, followed by a good smacking with the reins, all in about 15 seconds. The son would get a squeeze, then a kiss, then a bit of heel, in the same time frame.

result is the same: horse goes forward. same process, different horse, different level of intensity. Sure, if I got on the old mare and tried squeezing, then harder, then kiss, then heel, then finally spanking, she'll just keep getting duller, which is why you use the same concept, just a different level of intensity suited to the horse.

I whole heartedly agree about the quality of the horse. You may be able to get robotic obedience out of an unwilling partner, but you cant create willingness or work ethic where they just plain don't exist. One of the last horses I tried to start was awful, not desire to please, naturally lazy and miserable. He was that way in the pasture too. It was such a chore working with him. Contrast that with Pickles. Everything is so easy. She WANTS to learn, she wants to please, its built right into her. She has been the easiest horse to start I've ever had, because she is naturally sane, forward and good minded, I just encourage what's already there. She comes from an old time breeder who breeds horses with a focus on usability, and it shows in his stock.

So I guess in answer to the original question, its everything. I have exactly Zero desire to work with a horse with a poor work ethic and no forward impulsion. None. not on the trail, not in the arena, not on the ground. I'm helping a friend with a mare that has been "asked" to death with no telling or demanding. She is dull and lazy and has a bad attitude. She needs a whole lot of spanking and zero coddling. It drives me nuts.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> The other type of unwilling horse is the one that's been ridden inconsiderately and has just got sick to death with it all - and too many 'wet saddles' on an unfit horse can cause this attitude.


 here is another misunderstood term. "Wet saddle blankets " (as it applies beneficially to babies) does not mean hard fast riding and bringing an unfit baby home soaking wet. It means long rides, and actually getting out an doing things, within the horses ability. Every ride is a training session, So make it count. Trotting a horse in circles mindlessly until its exhausted accomplishes little to nothing. Over working an unfit horse makes a sore horse that could easily get an injury, and that will quickly learn to hate riding. USE SOME COMMON SENSE PEOPLE.(speaking to horse people in general, no one in particular)


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

bsms said:


> Please go back and READ what I wrote. "If you are teaching a horse to move forward at a softer cue when they do not know the meaning of the softer cue..."
> 
> I do not assume a horse knows what a cue is by instinct. They must first be taught the cue. That is not nagging. That is teaching.
> 
> ...


Please never assume I didn't read a post that I have responded to. More than likely, I have read it four of five times in order for me to comprehend the post. That is my cross to bear, and I have 'beared' it well for 53 years.

So don't assume I haven't read. 

Where I went wrong with my post is: * I* made an assumption that a horse knows at least a forward cue prior to anyone throwing a leg over. A horse that has at least been halter trained and trained to lead *well* should know one cue: forward. After all, the horse, *I assume*, has been lead from point A, to point B, to point C, back to point A. Hence the horse understands forward. Whether a person uses a voice command, like 'walk', 'forward', 'come', a kiss, cluck, or the handler uses their energy to get the horse moving. The halter trained horse should know forward.

However, go to any barn, show, fair grounds, and you see people pulling their horse along 10 feet (or however long the lead rope is) behind them. This is where I think dullness starts; at the end of a lead rope. But that is another discussion for another day.

Once again, I assume most people lunge or ground drive a horse before saddling up (there are probably a few of the better/more knowledgeable trainers on this forum that do not have to do either. But I'm talking about us average Joes). With both types of ground lessons, you are reinforcing the forward commands of walk, trot, canter.

So if a horse knows forward commands be it a word or a noise, why should I give it seven different cues to get the horse moving once on him?

I either have a bright sensitive horse (Arab), and I have been lucky with him. I have also tried to think out side of my comfort zone, and what I had seen done in the past, or did in the past. Thus far, with a hiccup or two, we have done well over the past six years. He is a tester sometimes though.

I'm leaving the whole child not doing dishes analogy alone. Because that is what it was. 

Maybe I won't leave it *that *alone: Mind could rinse their dishes and put them in the dishwasher by three and half. When they hit the preteen year, that is when the thought they could ignore, and when they learned to clean a kitchen correctly; or at least to my liking.

They also became friendly with the washer and dryer. I became tired of nagging for their dirty clothes every Saturday morning.

I liked Cherie's advice, and understood the reasoning behind it.

Also, I have really enjoyed this thread!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Some horses will switch off because they are bored. Repetition of the same day after day, week after week can make them 'dead'. 

*BSMS * I cannot agree with all that is written in the above. To say that a horse will always struggle against the rider is totally wrong. 
If a horse is started correctly then it becomes a partnership *before* the order ever gets on. 

Hand on heart I can say that in forty plus years breaking so many horses I cannot count, that I have not had one that bucked or tried to fight me the first time I rode them.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I can't speak to first time rides, nor to any number of horses. I will say that while Mia is mostly a very willing horse, she has had her moments when she gave me the middle hoof salute, so to speak. Maybe it was caused by my riding, or maybe it was caused by her past, or maybe it is part of her nature to sometimes challenge the other person in the team...but there have been times we've had a fight. And when she did make a fight of it, she really NEEDED me to win. She had to know she couldn't intimidate me before she could trust me.

Cowboy had at least 6 owners before me. That was all the instructor at the stable where he was a lesson horse knew of, but she wasn't sure if #1 was really the first owner or not. He was given to us because no one else wanted him, and because he tended to intimidate the student riders, even at 13 hands.

We had a somewhat wild ride his first day, but after 10 minutes or so he figured out we weren't going to give in and weren't going to quit, and he is now a pretty nice horse to ride - spunk without meanness. If I was 20 lbs lighter, I'd like to ride him frequently...I'm dieting, so maybe someday.

I don't think Fillis was talking about a horse trained from scratch, although maybe he was. In 1890, standards were somewhat different - but Fillis still considered each horse as an individual. (Fillis was born in 1834) His point, though, I think was valid: If you need to fight, fight hard and win so the horse won't WANT to fight the next time. Or as the instructor I took lessons from put it, take the horse where you don't want to go so he won't want to go there either. Once you get that settled, you can work on softening.

Of the 4 horses I've done a reasonable amount of riding on, 3 have had times when they were willing to fight. Two of the three stopped with one fight. Mia was willing to fight more than once, but we haven't had anything like a fight for 1-2 years now.

Our Arabian Lilly, now sold over my objections, was our one horse who was started from scratch at 6 years old. She never offered a fight. She wasn't super submissive, but she was a Please & Thank You horse who heard Please and Thank You from her first ride. As long as she felt you respected her, she wouldn't offer any fight. If you want a really nice horse, buy a nice horse who hasn't been broken, and get a good trainer to start her right. As you say, Foxhunter, it then is a partnership from the beginning.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

because I am not sure I could employ Cherie's method successfully, I do not try it. 

the fellow I'm part leasing now is at times balky. particularly in the arena. he has had his fill of it, and has learned to just suck behind the bit and kind of prance, with no forward impulsion at all. 
the first time I rode him, I asked and asked, and finally, hunkered down and whaled on him 3 quick times with my dressage whip, back behind my leg. man! he erupted into some pretty nice bucks, and I am not bronc rider. but, i hung in there and got him straightened out and off we trotted. but, he was very resentful.

what I've found, over time, is that when he balks I tend to deal with it more patiently, by asking him to take steps forward, in any direction, and then eventually he goes forwrd. at times, I have had to smack him , but i've found if I smack him 3 times in rapid succession on his NECK, he accepts the correction without bucking and realizes its time to stop farting around and walk on. I know that this is not the way someone who trains might deal with him, but it works enough for me. and 90% of the time, we riders do not need 100% from our horses. we are happy enough with less. sounds like a cop out, I know, but at my place in life, and his, this will do just fine for both of us.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

> but i've found if I smack him 3 times in rapid succession on his NECK, he accepts the correction without bucking and realizes its time to stop farting around and walk on


 a good trainer uses whatever method that works for that horse, at that time. Horses are individuals that do not fit into cookie cutter training programs well. Way too many trainers around here have a "way" that they train, and if the horse doesn't learn there way, the owner gets back at best a frustrated horse with little training, at worst a problem horse. My BO had a very sensitive, reactive, opinionated thoroughbred mare that scared a well respected trainer, and came back after having run through a baracade and flipping over backwards. That trainer used the wrong approach for that horse, despite having years of experience starting thoroughbred race horses. She came back and the BO did a ton of slow work with her, and she came along well. She went to the track and developed a reputation as a huge handful that her trainer disliked. In the end she came home and became an endurance horse, before an unfortunate accident put her in the brood mare band. She was one of my favorite horses to ride, but you allways asked nice, you always had light hands and you never even thought about using a whip.

What works for my arab is an understanding approach with feather light cues. You respect her, she respects you, but don't ever try to shove her around. My appy needs you to giver her firm no nonsense rules and make things obvious. 

if a tap on the neck gets the point across better than a spank on the butt, go for it. Its all about finding a method that works and getting the point across.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Wow, this thread has grown.

I notice the emphasis has changed, from starting horses, to re-training or riding the dull ones. As for developing the "work ethic" (I still don't think horses "work"--- they go with the flow, follow the herd, or react to inpleasantness...but never mind that)--- I think we all agree it's VERY important. 

I notice a belief, mine as well, that the innate nature of a horse is also important, as far as future "performance" goes; and in how we handle the horse. The trail horse I mentioned, who took control, would start off in the general direction his rider indicated; and yes, he pretty much picked his own way after that. Mostly a trail was indicated, but if he went a bit one way or another, I don't believe it mattered much to his rider.

I want to comment on the use of the aids: *Timing.* It makes such a huge difference. At the walk, try using your leg just as the hind leg on that side is coming up, on the same side. (Ex. as the inside shoulder comes back) and AFTERWARDS, if there's no response, use the whip on the same side. My horse always takes a bigger back step. I will do this several times, and after maybe 3 or 4 strides, she will keep a nice, long walk.

(I've tried the stronger method too, but while I did get a forward urge for awhile, as Tinyliny said, my horse wasn't happy. . .I really want my horse to want to move out, to feel it's not only safe but enjoyable. Yes, I know it's a challenge, but while it's taking forever, it's happening. Of course, we're not competitive, we do this for recreation.)


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Can't really add much to the original post escept that IMHO a horse and a dog go crazy without a job to do.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Corporal said:


> Can't really add much to the original post escept that IMHO a horse and a dog go crazy without a job to do.


 I have never found that to be the case, I have horses which are pasture pets and dogs that are happy to sit by the Rayburn all day, neither get crazy.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When I worked in riding schools we had several ponies and horses that were real dead on their legs rides for nervous people and beginners but as soon as someone experienced got on them they were lively and forward going, a couple of them even competed successfully at a fairly good level in Gymkhana and jumping.
Sometimes its the rider that makes the difference and nothing wrong with the horse at all


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^That's true, sometimes you do get a horse that will adjust themselves to whomever is riding them at the time. My family has had several of those in the past but only have 1 right now. When he is carrying a beginner or a child who is basically clueless, he'll plod along like a literal dead-head. I don't mean that he ignores cues, he just responds slower and takes things easier. If a beginner/child is riding him around cattle, he won't even look at them if they try to run past him, which is extremely against his nature as a cutting bred horse. However, if you put someone on him that knows how to ride and asks him to do his job, there isn't a cow in this world he's met yet that could get past him, he's very forward and will even crow hop around and squeal the first time you ask him to lope off.

I have only 1 horse right now that has a mediocre work ethic IMHO. I love him and he'll give me every ounce of his not inconsiderably sized heart, but he's very lazy by nature and it takes a lot of work to keep him sharp and willing. Forward motion was his biggest downfall during training and I still struggle with it. I don't mean that he would balk or sull up and refuse to move, he just really prefers to stand around and fall asleep rather than move. He spent the first few weeks of training intimately familiar with the ends of my bridle reins, but he learned to become more willing and responsive. Thankfully, he never got a bad attitude whenever I corrected him. If he'd had a nasty attitude, his 1500 pound self would have been looking for a new home LOL.


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## thesilverspear (Aug 20, 2009)

What would Cherie (and others) do with a horse who is very reactive to and anxious about his external environment, stuff he sees and hears around the arena, and at the same time, so behind the leg and dead-sided he is nearly moving backwards and not particularly bothered by the dressage whip. Horse has been held back and whacked with the whip, as described, and it has improved him for that ride, but not long term. When he sees something to be anxious about, you might as well not exist on his back.

(this is not my horse, by the way, nor one I'm meant to be able to fix. His owner his a friend of mine and we ride together a lot, so I see her struggle and have sat on him a few times, usually thinking, Huh).

His owner has been talking about getting lessons from a classical trainer, if this person will come to the yard. I keep telling her I will audit, as I would love to see what someone would do with this horse. He stumps me.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Most of the horses I've come across that have had that mindset simply hate work, either because they see no point in it or are just plain lazy. The spookiness is usually 'faked' and only used as an excuse to not do something
To give an example - when Honey is bored with the manege work she can't help herself but still be forward going but she 'invents' a monster in one corner and tries to spook away from it towards the entrance - that horse is solid in the heaviest of traffic so its all a put on job with her
Lobby doesn't spook but she is very smart and after a few rounds of a manege she's had enough because she's bored - but rather than go dead to your legs if you don't do something to capture her focus she sets off on a whole repertoire of leg yields, turns on the forehand, shoulder in etc without actually being asked
Most horses do better for spending more time hacking out or on the trails


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