# What do you think about mustang round up?



## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Mustangs are one of the most well known breeds. In most movies they are common, because of their distinct confirmation. They are still roaming, though most people are questioning how much longer they will be. The BLM does round-up with mustangs. Doesn't sound very bad at all when you just state the obvious, though when you look more into it, you can almost sence the fear the horses must face. In places that the BLM consides a place with insufeceint food and water sources they start the round-up. Though lush pasture and clean water creeks i wouldn't really consider a place lacking food and water. Mustangs like all horses are beautiful graceful creatures, and to see them going through such mental pain, and suffering, is heart breaking. Thier is a book called Cloud:wild stallion of the rockies. Its a sad and happy story that takes you through his life. Its a true story, and im happy to see people cared about cloud, the BLM was going to remove (destroy) cloud and his herd. But thanks to lots of people, look at the site below-
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/save-cloud-and-his-wild-herd/

It a potetion they had, 5,000 people needed to sign it to save cloud. 5,828 signed and he was saved. that was in 2008. No mustang needs to suffer like this. So i have done some research to see if their was soemthing we could do to stop this from happening to any other mustangs. Because they are a big part of American history, and we shouldn't just wait for them to go extinct. This is what i found lots of people on facebook care alot , read it-
Save the Mustangs, Wipe Out the BLM? | Facebook

the sites i found on the above link to help mustangs are-
www.thecloudfoundation.org - www.thecloudfoundation.org
The gilrl who wrote he book Cloud wild stallion of the rockies, i think helped to start the above foundation and im glad people care, but we need your help!

American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign: Home

Help save some of the only living American history we have left! Tell your friends! By the end of 2010 they plan to do another round up, please help!

Tweet it, share it, text it! 

Even horse illustrated is saying the BLM is cruel.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Not much time left to stop goverment funding for 2011 roundup the link below will tell you how to help its free!
American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Would rather they just be left to starve to death? Mustangs are just feral animals. They are what is left over from horse herds that ranchers used to run on the range with thier cattle. With the invention of tractors and automobiles ranches didn't need as many horses so many were left to run. When there got to be too many the ranchers would round them up, sort off the ones they didn't want and then sell the rest. Then a bleeding heart woman in Nevada decided that was cruel and used misinformation to get the Free Roaming Horse and Burro act passed. Now nobody is managing them and the BLM spends half its budget on feral horses. 

You need to educate yourself before you start trying to change things. I would guess that you have never seen a herd of mustangs dying of thirst around a dry water hole or seen the devistation to fragile ecosystems that happens when the range is overstocked with these horses. The owners of the cattle move the cattle when the grass starts to get too short and the water starts to dry up but nobody moves the mustangs so they turn your beutiful lush meadows into nothing but dirt in a matter of weeks.

Come out west and see with your own eyes if you really want to learn something.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> Would rather they just be left to starve to death? Mustangs are just feral animals. They are what is left over from horse herds that ranchers used to run on the range with thier cattle. With the invention of tractors and automobiles ranches didn't need as many horses so many were left to run. When there got to be too many the ranchers would round them up, sort off the ones they didn't want and then sell the rest. Then a bleeding heart woman in Nevada decided that was cruel and used misinformation to get the Free Roaming Horse and Burro act passed. Now nobody is managing them and the BLM spends half its budget on feral horses.
> 
> You need to educate yourself before you start trying to change things. I would guess that you have never seen a herd of mustangs dying of thirst around a dry water hole or seen the devistation to fragile ecosystems that happens when the range is overstocked with these horses. The owners of the cattle move the cattle when the grass starts to get too short and the water starts to dry up but nobody moves the mustangs so they turn your beutiful lush meadows into nothing but dirt in a matter of weeks.
> 
> Come out west and see with your own eyes if you really want to learn something.


 
Maybe you should educate yourself and click some links, and watch videos, the BLM takes horses off places that have plenty of food and water. either way i would rather starve to death then be auctioned off and beaten


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## DunOverIt (Dec 14, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> Would rather they just be left to starve to death? Mustangs are just feral animals. They are what is left over from horse herds that ranchers used to run on the range with thier cattle. With the invention of tractors and automobiles ranches didn't need as many horses so many were left to run. When there got to be too many the ranchers would round them up, sort off the ones they didn't want and then sell the rest. Then a bleeding heart woman in Nevada decided that was cruel and used misinformation to get the Free Roaming Horse and Burro act passed. Now nobody is managing them and the BLM spends half its budget on feral horses.
> 
> You need to educate yourself before you start trying to change things. I would guess that you have never seen a herd of mustangs dying of thirst around a dry water hole or seen the devistation to fragile ecosystems that happens when the range is overstocked with these horses. The owners of the cattle move the cattle when the grass starts to get too short and the water starts to dry up but nobody moves the mustangs so they turn your beutiful lush meadows into nothing but dirt in a matter of weeks.
> 
> Come out west and see with your own eyes if you really want to learn something.


I wish this forum had a "like" button, like on facebook.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

site4pets said:


> Maybe you should educate yourself and click some links, and watch videos, the BLM takes horses off places that have plenty of food and water. either way i would rather starve to death then be auctioned off and beaten


I don't need to watch propaganda I have seen it with my very own two eyes. Most of these feral horses are inbred, wormy runts that are not worth the $125 it takes to adopt them. If they were managed by the states or the ranchers that own the land then they would be better horses in a more sustainable herd. Not every mustang is beaten and I have seen several of the auctions and the horses are pretty calm and well treated.

How many herds have you seen on the range? Have you ever been to a BLM auction? Have you ever trained a mustang? I don't need to click the links (although I have) and let some other city dude tell me how it is *WHERE I LIVE*.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Site, I don't know why it is that so many of the threads that you start seem to be for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of people and creating drama that surrounds yourself.

That being said, I agree with Kevin. You have clearly not read any information other than what the PETA fanatics have slathered all over their websites. The horses are starving, especially in wintertime and if you think that them running free over the plains is the great, majikal, majestic thing that you saw in "Spirit" (the animated movie) then you are naive. They get sick, they get hurt, they starve, they die of thirst, they have no medical care or hoof care.

Look a little farther than your little bubble of ignorance and you will see Mustangs running with broken legs, severe hoof problems, untreated/infected injuries that are skin and bones because they are starving to death.

I am of the mind that the two Mustangs I own are much happier here where they have access to good food and clear water 24/7 without having to run hundreds of miles, they have well trimmed feet, good health care and see a vet when the need arises.

I'm so sure that they believe that life is so much more cruel than being left to fend for themselves:roll:.


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## VelvetsAB (Aug 11, 2010)

_I would rather they were rounded up and culled, then have them destory a farmers livelihood....._


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> I don't need to watch propaganda I have seen it with my very own two eyes. Most of these feral horses are inbred, wormy runts that are not worth the $125 it takes to adopt them. If they were managed by the states or the ranchers that own the land then they would be better horses in a more sustainable herd. Not every mustang is beaten and I have seen several of the auctions and the horses are pretty calm and well treated.
> 
> How many herds have you seen on the range? Have you ever been to a BLM auction? Have you ever trained a mustang? I don't need to click the links (although I have) and let some other city dude tell me how it is *WHERE I LIVE*.


 
Just because they aren't worth any money doesn't mean they dont deserve to be treated right. I have watched live roundups before at the BLM Horse stumbled and got trampled on, and herds were seperated, and as they were herded into tiny spaces they were whipped into corners, im not saying all roundups are like that. I know some roundups are calm and the people take their time, but some of them arent, even horse illustrated said tthe BLM was cruel and their usually the one too support them.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

One of my favorite posts from Kevin is when he said something along the lines of _" Mustangs are no more unique than a stray dog"_


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

lacyloo said:


> One of my favorite posts from Kevin is when he said something along the lines of _" Mustangs are no more unique than a stray dog"_


 
People arent unique. Does that mean they should be treated wrong? They still deserve to be treated right even though some people don't give a ****. Thats like saying your babies not unquie and just putting it outside doing nothing about what happens to it. I dont know why half of you have account on a horse forum when you dont even care about horses


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

site4pets said:


> Just because they aren't worth any money doesn't mean they dont deserve to be treated right. I have watched live roundups before at the BLM Horse stumbled and got trampled on, and herds were seperated, and as they were herded into tiny spaces they were whipped into corners, im not saying all roundups are like that. I know some roundups are calm and the people take their time, but some of them arent, even horse illustrated said tthe BLM was cruel and their usually the one too support them.


When you gather horse you have to go pretty fast. I would like to gather horse at a nice calm walk like yougather cattle but that's not how it is. Even with broke saddle horses they rarely get slower than a trot. These are unhandled animals and sometimes you have to use some force to do what is best for them. Less than 1% of the animals gathered by the BLM are injured in any way and the mortality rate is even lower than that.

What gather did you watch?


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

smrobs said:


> Site, I don't know why it is that so many of the threads that you start seem to be for the sole purpose of getting a rise out of people and creating drama that surrounds yourself.
> 
> That being said, I agree with Kevin. You have clearly not read any information other than what the PETA fanatics have slathered all over their websites. The horses are starving, especially in wintertime and if you think that them running free over the plains is the great, majikal, majestic thing that you saw in "Spirit" (the animated movie) then you are naive. They get sick, they get hurt, they starve, they die of thirst, they have no medical care or hoof care.
> 
> ...


 
And airplane roundup and cruel homes are any better?


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

I agree with kevin. I watched on Rfdtv with Ken McNab on the management of the mustangs. The devastation they can cause the ecosystem. When they are going into towns and crossing roads and causing dangerous situations. The ranchers can't send their cattle out to pasture because the mustangs have over grazed the land. 

I love mustangs and the thought of them running free but I also feel if they don't have that many natural predators keeping their number down, who or what will?

This is like going deer hunting. I think deer are cute and beautiful but they need their cull times too.

And why would you start the poll the way you did? I answered but thought it was odd for the second option being called an *******! For one, your on a horse forum that people come here because we love horses so why would you ask that question. That was wrong!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

site4pets said:


> And airplane roundup and cruel homes are any better?


Why do you assume that all the homes are cruel? Do you think a horse cares that it's starving to death on the desert or starving to death in a pen somewhere? Most of the horses gathered end up in long term holding facilities in the midwest. These are genneraly large tracts of pasture that they dump these horses on to let them waste tax money until they die.

You still didn't answer my question about what gather you watched in person.


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

****, Scuba Steve.

On topic.....

The BLM has regulations for adoption, not saying that this prevents cruelty from happening, cause it does. But they're not just handing them out like it's Holloween. Most of them do get good homes. And they get the care they need. If they are left free the mortality rate rises way above what it it is for them to be rounded up and at least have a chance for a good life. 

Why do so many people insist on on saving them all? Thats never gonna happen. Just do what you can with what you have. If your worried about horses being mistreated then go volunteer at a rescue. The impact you make ACTUALLY DOING something is going to be way bigger than sitting on you butt posting about how you wish it would stop.

The BLM has good intentions. They cannot prevent accidents, they cannot treat these wild animals like puppies. I'd much rather see a horse get smacked a couple times in round up than see the humans that are trying to help it die. And that horse that got smacked would probably take a couple pops over starving.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

site4pets said:


> And airplane roundup and cruel homes are any better?


Agree with Kevin yet again. The horse will see no difference between starving on the plains or in a back yard. However, at least with the roundup and adoption process, they have a chance at a good life. No, I don't see the airplane or helicopter roundup as cruel either. It is better than running 10 good horses to death trying to gather them horseback.

And I just wanted to add, poor Dobe and Koda, woe is them. They have an owner who loves them and makes sure that they are well fed and cared for, plus they have a job that they both enjoy and they never have to compete for food or survival. I'm sure that they are absolutely miserable. 









ETA: I didn't even think about that LS. Yes, the BLM has regulations that you have to pass in order to even adopt a horse from them. Very unlike the mongrel grade horses that are being sold at every auction every day. There, _anyone_ with more than $5 in their pocket can walk away with a horse.


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## Lonestar22 (May 22, 2009)

I <3 Dobe. Too bad he's miserable!!!!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Smrobs it's too bad you are a horse abuser. You seem like such a nice gal!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Maybe I should transport him back out to Wyoming so that he can be happy and free and starving:?.


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## DunOverIt (Dec 14, 2010)

Random.. excuse my like button comment. I'm blind apparently! One of the lovely mods pointed it out!


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

site4pets said:


> People arent unique. Does that mean they should be treated wrong? They still deserve to be treated right even though some people don't give a ****. Thats like saying your babies not unquie and just putting it outside doing nothing about what happens to it. I dont know why half of you have account on a horse forum when you dont even care about horses


 
I actually agree with your analogy. Like babies, wild horses have to be managed and taken care of because if left alone they will die a slow and painful death. I do things to my kids that they think are mean but I do them for thier own good because they are my responsibility. My kids would be perfectly happy to never go to school and eat only candy but I know that's not the best for them.

What happened to the poll?


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Some Ahole took it off! They must not care about horses!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Spastic_Dove (Oct 4, 2007)

My question to the OP is: 
What is your solution? 
What about overcrowding and population growth? What about competition with humans and ranchers? 
What about starvation, disease, no health care (worming, farrier, teeth, etc) that causes the wild horses to die at such a minimal age? 

The lush pastures with a big watering hole can not support a herd of wild mustangs and the rest of the ecosystem plus ranchers and their cattle. 
Not to mention the fact of how drastically it will change in the other seasons. Have you ever spent a winter in WY, MT, UT...? There is a reason that many horses don't make it through the winters. 


Do you just disagree with the methods the BLM uses in the round up or do you disagree with 'taming' (for lack of a better word) and reducing the mustang population full stop?


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## AllThePrettyHorses (Dec 15, 2010)

mbender said:


> Some Ahole took it off! They must not care about horses!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl:


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Thank you Kevin ---- You are like a breath of fresh air. I seldom hear or see the truth from horse forum members. Usually it is just lies, half-truths, propaganda from animal rights nuts and complete misinformation. It is nice to know that there are a few people that actually know what feral horses look like and what they would be without the round-ups that protect them and their range. Thank you. :clap:



> the BLM was going to remove (destroy) cloud and his herd. But thanks to lots of people......​



S4P -- Where did you get this crap from. No mustangs have been destroyed even though the actual bill (the Free Roaming Horse and Burro Act) allows for excess horses to be gotten rid of -- ie sent to slaughter. 

Everything you have said is nothing but pure horse pucky. Your statement prove that you know little or nothing about mustangs or feral horses. Things like "their distinct conformation". What distinct conformation? They are all different. While a few have some size and decent conformation, most are inbred rats with big heads, thick ewe necks, short steep croups and big lunky feet and joints. They epitomize everything that conscientious breeders have spent 5 centuries trying to improve on.

I have participated in wild horse round-ups before the wild horse act. [Yeah! I'm really that old.] I broke and trained more than 50 of them when I lived in western Colorado and in Eastern Utah. That was how I got 'pocket money' when I was a kid. I broke and sold whatever I picked from the 'catch'. We were catching them because they were starving in the winter, breaking into pastures, destroying haystacks and the feral studs were breeding good ranch mares.

I don't know how you would 'beat' them when you were rounding them up. You can't get that close to them. Do a few get hurt in the pens and in that process of running them in? Sure --- but they get hurt running out
​
in the wild, too.

I also do not know where you got your information about how abused they are after being caught. I live 25 miles from the mustang pens in Pauls Valley, Oklahoma. There are nearly 1000 of them running on lush Bermuda Grass bottoms along the Wa****a River. They have free-choice Alfalfa 24/7 on top of the best grass anywhere around here. They have it better than most of the domestic horses around here and whole lot better than most ranch horses. There is another herd of 1000 running on the Drummond Ranch and the Tall Grass Prairie in Norther Oklahoma in Osage County. We know the Drummonds and they make $2 mil a year from running these 'unadoptable' horses on their ranch. These horses are going to be there until they die of natural causes. So, before you come here and tell us a bunch of BS, you better have real facts and not just AR propaganda. 

Just like the AR nuts that got domestic slaughter stopped, uninformed idiots like you would insure that most mustangs had a much more harsh existence and would eventually die off from over-crowding, disease, starvation and water deprivation. 

I have gone to the auctions held in Pauls Valley. I have never seen a horse badly injured during an auction. I have watched them run them through chutes for deworming and vaccinations and to put on halters. Never saw a permanent injury there either. I know there are a few that hit fences and try to jump out of 8 foot pens, but with a 1000 of them running around on pastures there, it must not be very many of them.

One last question (not tht I expect you to answer it)---

How many feral horses is enough? Are the 30,000 we now have not enough for you? I suggest that if you want more of them, you should buy 100,000 acres out in Nevada and make your own sanctuary there. But, 100,000 acres will actually only carry 200 to 300 horses and many will starve if you have a 2 or 3 year drought. And soon you will have 600 of them and they all will starve -- but then it would be your problem and not one we (the tax payers) have to pay for.

Am I a little bitter -- you bet. I am sick and tired of listening to people that know nothing about a subject trying to tell the people who do know how it actually works. I am sick and tired of picking up the bill just like I am tired of seeing emaciated and starving horses that are the direct result of the closure of slaughter plants. 

I probably love horses much more than you and I know have personally saved a lot more of them. But, I am a realist and SEE the direct results of the stupid actions of people living far away that know nothing about the reality of it all.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Spastic_Dove said:


> My question to the OP is:
> What is your solution?
> What about overcrowding and population growth? What about competition with humans and ranchers?
> What about starvation, disease, no health care (worming, farrier, teeth, etc) that causes the wild horses to die at such a minimal age?
> ...


I dont think anyone would disagree with training or taming them, its the way its done that most people would disagree with (even if the person doing it doesn't consider it cruel) I mostly disagree on the way they catch the horses. I know not all round ups are rushed, and i know some "ranchers" actually care about the horses. But some don't and thats why me and some other people wont to pass the "NO government funding for 2011 round-up" campaign. There isn't a good solution to please everyone and the horses,and i know water and food will go low from over population. Some body in 05 tried starting a petition to geld a few young stallions instead of letting them on breed. But once they thought about it, they realized the stallion couldn't have a herd that way (not sure how long it took them to find that one out...). Horses flare their feet in the wild, most 'tame' horses dont even get their teeth floated, most of the horse owners around here have good healthy horses that dont have floated teeth, although i know some horse need their teeth floated. I dont disagree with reducing population as long as it doesn't mean slaughter. How about just gelding some of the stallions to cut back breeding, or spaying the mares which i know some owners do. I wouldn't say stop herding at all, if it was up to me i would probably find a easier and nicer way of doing it. Wild horses use to roam free without problems, until ears ago when they were hunted for a couple years and then after that they started round up. Catching them isn't going to help the population though, look at captive horses, most are abused, neglected, starved, or in shelters.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

site4pets said:


> look at captive horses, most are abused, neglected, starved, or in shelters.


Do you really think that MOST captive horses are abused, neglected, starved or in shelters? If you truly believe that you are a fool.


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## LoveStory10 (Oct 31, 2009)

Please excuse my complete lack of knowledge on this topic, as I live very far away from mustangs, but I had to comment.

Even I, a South African girl who has never even seen any mustang, let alone a wild one, understand the need to round them up and cull them/adopt them out. Over here we have to do that with the wild zebra, as they also break into pastures and eat all of our hard grown grass and hay, and breed to some valuable mares (babies are funny let me tell you that lol).

I have heard of the BLM, I don't know what it stands for, but I know they deal with wild horses and that stuff. And when they round up, I'm sure they are as careful as they possibly can be, but accidents may occur. Say you have a herd of about 15 horses like my barn, we go out and chase them in, one of the mares slipped on the ground and fell. Where we cruel and forced her to fall? No.

In a matter like this I am more inclined to believe and listen to people such as smrobs and kevinshorses, as they seem WAY more knowledgeable than the OP.

Once again, please excuse my lack of knowledge and if I got anything wrong


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

kevinshorses said:


> Do you really think that MOST captive horses are abused, neglected, starved or in shelters? If you truly believe that you are a fool.


I agree, Kevin :think: Hmm, I do believe that if every captive horse was abused, then a couple of my friends would be horse abusers. :roll:


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

site4pets said:


> Doesn't sound very bad at all when you just state the obvious, though when you look more into it, you can almost sence the fear the horses must face.


Aside from horses who are just a bigger animal, have you ever come into contact with a feral cat? I used to have a colony outside my house, and of the adults I could catch I would spay or neuter them, of the kittens I would get them used to people and rehome. 

Have you ever met a feral cat and tried to have contact with it? These horses are not cute ponies that can be in a barn in a day. They are not lovable things we can cuddle because they know we love them. These are wild animals. And they are huge wild animals. There is no cuddling and loving them into a pen, they would kill you. It has to be a stand off, it has to be tough as despite the teenage dream of just showing them a minute of love, the results are a dream. 



site4pets said:


> most 'tame' horses dont even get their teeth floated, most of the horse owners around here have good healthy horses that dont have floated teeth, although i know some horse need their teeth floated.



and you are going to cause a fuss about something you have no experience of, when there is something you know about and do nothing. It might not be the end of the world, but you are the horse crusaider, so go do something about the things you know about.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

((I'm going to repeat myself from a prior thread))

Why is it that everyone thinks it's so terrible when puppies and kittens are homeless, but not when horses are homeless? Mustangs are stray horses just like we have stray dogs and cats, but for some reason we have romanticized the idea to make it okay and even desirable.

((The following images came from a dedicated mustang trainer and advocate's blog. You can read more about her experiences with mustangs here: Mustang Diaries))

It's not all flowers and butterflies on the range. Here's a mare that was recently brought in off the range because there wasn't enough forage out there to sustain the number of horses:










This stud got into a spat and is paying a high price. Without treatment, his wound could easily become infected and ultimately kill him... not to mention it may slow him down and will take much longer to resolve itself.










Fortunately the stud's wound was looking better a few months later despite a lack of any treatment or attention. You will notice however that the horse in the picture with him is missing part of an ear. This is somewhat common among the mustangs, and is the result of frostbite.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I did not see your previous post, but I would like to say that this is a great one!


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

AlexS said:


> I did not see your previous post, but I would like to say that this is a great one!


It sure is! I agree!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Ya'll should head out to Australia and protest. We don't even bother rounding up our Brumbies (which are feral, not wild, and not protected like the Mustang is by the government). Sure, there are a few die-hards that muster on horseback in the Snowies mostly. But in the scrub bush and deserts, most brumby running is done with choppers and dirt bikes. That's if they are going to catch and home them. Otherwise, if it is a cull, it is a chopper with a sharp shooter in it. They put a bullet through a few brumbies, move on to the next herd, repeat. 

The flip side is that every year in Australia 1000s of brumbies starve to death. Not only that, but they destroy the habitat of native animals. Australia is losing native mammals especially by the dozen, going extinct because of feral animals. What should we do? Do we pick the horses because we think they are special? Because it is a choice - keep the herds at manageable sizes, or lose native species.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I think we should do more culling here i the states like in AUS. Im sure someone with a good eye can pick off a few of the more unfortunate looking horses in a herd, the crippled and watnot, and just drop them right then and there from the chopper and save a lot of money for horses that are a credit to the gene pool... then all they would have to do is go around and pick up the dead ones and haul them off or just leave them lie if it is an unpopulated area.

Friggin bleeding hearts, drive me nuts. If you want to make a difference go adopt about a thousand horses and buy a million acres and take care of all of their bills and pat yourself on the back. If you cant do that get over it, stop petitioning and annoying the rest of us and let us work to get the slaughter houses reopened so they an be regulated and the horse market can start circulating and ole Bessie can be sold for more than $50 at auction. you really need to look it with your heads and not those bleeding hearts.


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Here's my thoughts. Someone said to go around and castrate some of the stallions. Ok, who can determine which stallion to do this to? Most stallions are driven out of the herd and band together in bachelor groups. Not all of them are going to be able to hold their own harem. But how can you tell which ones to castrate?

I believe it better to give the mares a contraceptive. Would really help. Again, who determines which ones? How do you know who is strong and will carry strong genes to keep the herd healthy?

Here's my last question. WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR THAT?
There has to be a cull time. As much as we don't like to see our beloved horses go through that, it has to be done. I agree with the person who said "better the mustangs get slapped or whipped to move than to have someone get killed trying to save the remaining herds". 

What do you suggest they do to cut down the herds that they are not already trying? Who's going to pay for the food and land they already use to pen most of these horses. Government only funds so much to this cause and I highly doubt they are going to give more to save animals that are getting out of control. 

Besides cougars for being one of the predators, what else is there that would keep a herd in check? This question is for you that live in that area. 

We need something or someone to step up and keep them in check. Sorry that you are hurt the way they are treated. I'm not happy either and am sure it will be handled if there is abuse going on. But they are wild, act wild, and there are only some ways to do what you have to to get a job done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/media...l_page.Par.23818.File.dat/AHPAFinalReport.pdf

This is a link to an independant review of the BLM round up techniques. Overall it is fairly positive, there are points they indicate that the BLM needs to improve but the important bit: No cruelty was seen or mentioned.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

You must be lying Lis! The BLM hates feral horses! They do everything they can to beat and what was it again that they do to them...i heard beat over and over again... that is is. Anyway it has to be a lie....except is is an official document and as I read the WHOLE THING, saw absolutely nothing that would deem the methods or personnel cruel or malicious. The only real suggestions had to deal with the manner in which the horses were moved between corrals at the holding facilities, that maybe a little more patience shoulld be demonstrated and more time taken to move the horses... Not exactly murder there.

Of the few mortalities, none were unnecessary, all were humane and last resort options. in the case of the old stallion, I do not blame them, being intact, older, obviously aggressive and half blind, it was a kindness to the horse to put him down. Horses were euthanized via gunshot to the brain which is a very very humane technique, virtually painless and quick as a shot pardon the pun.

The choppers were observed by certified DVMs to cause no real stress to the horses, barely making them do more than a trot. The chopper was well manned and stayed far away from the horses as necessary.

The only big problem at the round up was....SHOCKER, the public! They scared the horses more than the choppers. Gee.


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## Production Acres (Aug 26, 2009)

As I understand the situation, currently large ranches get paid $1100. per head/per year to house the unadopted horses. The ranch doesn't have anything to loose if they live or die - This is ALMOST TWICE THE INCOME OFF A COW-CALF OPERATION PER YEAR! What rancher wouldn't want a deal like this. And the check from the US Gov. will generally clear! Bring me a us gov. check for $1,650,000 and 1,500 head. The taxpayer will help us make a nice profit next year! The tax payer cannot afford this!


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

The BLM is doing the best they can, site4pets. The cold hard truth is that Mustangs left alone will decimate the area. Roundups of WILD animals can only BE so humane. I guess you'd prefer that if the horses didn't want to be caught then the rounders should just let them be, and move on to the next group that may be more receptive to being caught? And then when THEY got stressed and ran, that they just let them be and move on to the next group? Do you see where I'm going with this? There is no way to round up a herd of wild horses, deer, antelope, buffalo, WHATEVER without causing it stress. Or maybe you'd rather there be a hunting season on horses like there is on deer, to control the population THAT way instead...


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, I tried to post this last night --- but for some unknown reason, it showed up in the wrong place. So, I will try again

Thank you Kevin ---- You are like a breath of fresh air. I seldom hear or see the truth from horse forum members. Usually it is just lies, half-truths, propaganda from animal rights nuts and complete misinformation. It is nice to know that there are a few people that actually know what feral horses look like and what they would be without the round-ups that protect them and their range. Thank you.


> the BLM was going to remove (destroy) cloud and his herd. But thanks to lots of people......




 S4P -- Where did you get this crap from. No mustangs have been destroyed even though the actual bill (the Free Roaming Horse and Burro Act) allows for excess horses to be gotten rid of -- ie sent to slaughter. 

Everything you have said is nothing but pure horse pucky and shows how little you really know about mustangs and the unwanted horse issue. Your statements prove that you know little or nothing about mustangs or feral horses. Things like "their distinct conformation". What distinct conformation? They are all different. While a few have some size and decent conformation, most are inbred rats with big heads, thick ewe necks, short steep croups and big lunky feet and joints. They epitomize everything that conscientious breeders have spent 5 centuries trying to improve on.

They ARE NOT a breed but a random blending of everything from Army Remount horses (when the remount disbanded in 1947) to ranch horses that were turned out and joined wild herds to remnants of Indian owned herds.

I have participated in wild horse round-ups before the wild horse act. [Yeah! I'm really that old.] I broke and trained more than 50 of them when I lived in western Colorado and in Eastern Utah. That was how I got 'pocket money' when I was a kid. I broke and sold whatever I picked from the 'catch'. We were catching them because they were starving in the winter, breaking into pastures, destroying haystacks and the feral studs were breeding good ranch mares.

I don't know how you would 'beat' them when you were rounding them up. You can't get that close to them. Do a few get hurt in the pens and in that process of running them in? Sure --- but they get hurt running out in the wild, too. It is the price wild animals pay.

I also do not know where you got your information about how abused they are after being caught. I live 25 miles from the mustang pens in Pauls Valley, Oklahoma. There are nearly 1000 of them running on lush Bermuda Grass bottoms along the Wa****a River. They have free-choice Alfalfa 24/7 on top of the best grass anywhere around here. They have it better than most of the domestic horses around here. There is another herd of 1500 running on the Drummond Ranch and the Tall Grass Prairie in Norther Oklahoma in Osage County. We know the Drummonds and they make nearly $2 mil a year from running these 'unadoptable' horses on their ranch. These horses are going to be there until they die of natural causes. So, before you come here and tell us a bunch of BS, you better have real facts and not just AR propaganda. 

Just like the AR nuts that got domestic slaughter stopped, uninformed idiots would insure that most mustangs had a much more harsh existence and would eventually die off from over-crowding, disease, starvation and water deprivation. 

I have gone to the auctions held in Pauls Valley. I have never seen a horse badly injured during an auction. I have watched them run through chutes for deworming and vaccinations and to put on halters when they are adpopted. Never saw a permanent injury there either. I know there are a few that hit fences and try to jump out of the 8 foot pens, but with a 1000 of them running around there, it is a very small number of them.

One last question (not that I expect you to answer it)---

How many feral horses is enough? Are the 30,000 we now have not enough for you? I suggest that if you want more of them, you should buy 100,000 acres out in Nevada and make your own sanctuary there. But, 100,000 acres will actually only carry 200 to 300 horses and many will starve if you have a 2 or 3 year drought. And soon you will have 600 of them and they all will starve -- but then it would be your problem and not one we (the tax payers) have to pay for.

Am I a little bitter -- you bet. I am sick and tired of listening to people that know nothing about a subject trying to tell the people who do know how it actually works. I am sick and tired of picking up the bill just like I am tired of seeing emaciated and starving horses that are the direct result of the closure of slaughter plants. 

I probably love horses much more than you and I know have personally saved a lot more of them. But, I am a realist and SEE the direct results of the stupid actions of people living far away that know nothing about the reality of it all.


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

First off I am one of those people who wants to keep Mustangs wild. We have a herd that call the park near me home. I like seeing them from a distance. If you are ever out riding & run up on them though they are pretty scary.
I don't mind paying taxes to keep them around, just like I don't mind paying for the park.
The only way to insure that wild mustangs have a future is through the BLM & culling. Adoption due to the sheer numbers of horses alone isn't enough.
Also, I don't feel that the average horse owner is prepared to own and train a feral mustang. I know Kevin's said that they aren't different from other horses, but I disagree with that to a point. I think there is a significant difference in a horse that has been around & relied on people all its life versus one that hasn't.
Also sorry Smrobs, but I've known a lot of people who have been hurt by their BLM or Reservation horse within the 1st year of ownership.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Cherie, 

Thank you very much for that post. It is wonderful and refreshing to hear a well thought out argument from someone with first hand experience.

I do want to correct you on one point though - the last time we had a thread on this subject; I looked up the figures on the BLM website, and at that time, there were 30,000 mustangs living in pens and corrals on the taxpayer's bill. That number didn't include horses that are still free ranging or those living on private reserves. So the actual number is likely much, much larger.

Now, I need to put my moderator hat on -

The OP is, I believe, a teenager, who is obviously very passionate about horses, and has allowed herself to be swayed by the emotional arguments and propaganda of some the animal rights groups. That does not excuse the agressive nature of some of her posts; but I would hope we can all remember and empathize with what it was like to be that age and have our passions aroused by a perceived injustice. 

The best thing we can do in threads like but not to respond with equal agression, emotion or passion, but to post reasonable, rational arguments based on fact and personal experience in the hopes that we may be heard and educate some readers. 

In other words, let's keep it civil.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Happy to meet you Maura. Just what is a 'super moderator'?

I called a neighbor that works at the Pauls Valley holding and adoption facility.

Here are the correct numbers as close as they can get them.

There are currently about 35,000 in holding facilities. These include processing centers in Nevada, Oregon, etc, prison facilities where they are being gentled, holding and adoption centers like the one near me and the long term ranches like the ones in Northern Oklahoma. 

The most recent numbers of the free-ranging horses is another 35,000 and almost 5000 free-ranging burros. That makes it a grand total of around 70,000 feral horses. Over the total length of the program, 225,000 have been adopted.

I should have been more clear. My 30,000 number was the number I thought were still on the range -- you know --- the ones the do-goodies want left untouched so they can become 60,000 in 5 years or less. With the depressed horse market and economy, all of their facilities are now operating beyond capacity. The BLM thinks that 26,000 is the number that is sustainable on the range if there is not a long-term drought or some other disaster. 

Numbers are growing rapidly and they will soon eat themselves out of house and home, rangeland and rescue ranches and their annual budget. Just what are us taxpayers going to do then? More correctly, how difficult is the new Conservative Congress going to be to wring money out of for useless horses that are a drain on the Federal Budget? I suspect the do-goodies are going to soon find new 'whipping boys' to blame for all of their horse problems.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Fly, I know what you are getting at and you're right. While I did have success with the 2 I have, not everyone would. Matter of fact, that's how I got mine, they had been adopted by people because they were cheap and for the stigma of "I own a wild Mustang" and they didn't realize that those horses were really _wild_. So, I ended up buying them off the original adopters. Not everyone (not even some pro trainers) have any business trying to mess with them because they can be dangerous, but it's not that they are more dangerous than your typical unhandled stock horse, they just have a slightly different temperament. A heightened fight/flight reflex from living in the wild.

I wouldn't really like to see them wiped completely out, for no other reason that that silly little girl thing of seeing the wild horses running free on the prairie. It doesn't really make sense but that's how I feel. What I would like to see is more aggressive culling practices, weeding out the weak or ill conformed horses and getting them out of the population either by adoption, sale, or slaughter. Leave only the best conformed horses in the wild and geld the not so great stallions and spay the not so great mares. That way, only the good horses are producing other (hopefully) good horses. 

Every couple of years, do a roundup where they cull the herds and leave a set number of the best stock free and get rid of the culls. I would not be above sending some of them to slaughter because, like Kevin said, many of them are really not worth the time and training it would take to get them tame. I was very fortunate that both of mine turned out to be nice horses but not all of them would. Some of them have conformational problems that make them unusable, and others are just downright ugly. However, there are some out there that have looks to rival even the best QHs, those are the ones that I would like to see producing the next generation of mustangs.

I know that they are not a unique breed per say, but I do love their body type, heavy and sturdy and capable of working all day for days on end. They have bones and feet that I wish our domestic stock horses still had. We likely wouldn't have half the problems we do if they still had a good foundation like Mustangs do.

Really, they are perfect for what I need. I don't need a fantastic jumper or cutter or reiner or pleasure horse. I need a horse that can do a bit of everything, and Mustangs can. They are a "jack of all trades, master of none" type horse. They make decent all around horses but will never be a winner at any one discipline. I like the nicer mustangs because they are cheap and they are built hardier than many QHs I see. Their big joints last forever and their feet are tougher than steel.

I do love the breed and that is exactly why I would like to see better management of their numbers and the quality of breeding stock. Better horses breed to produce better horses. I don't really want them wiped out but I want them to manage numbers and quality more, by any means necessary.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

smrobs said:


> Leave only the best conformed horses in the wild and geld the not so great stallions and spay the not so great mares. That way, only the good horses are producing other (hopefully) good horses.


I know that the BLM wild horse/burro management in Oregon in particular has been attempting to improve the quality of their stock by being selective about which studs and mares are left on the range. They also pay attention to the genetic diversity and will sometimes attempt to split up close family harems into more variated herds during the round-ups.

I feel that Oregon has had some pretty good success so far with the improvement of the stock in their herds. There's certainly some of those mustangs out of Oregon that I wouldn't mind having as a nice riding horse.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Cherie, 

Thanks for the updated numbers. It's been a while since I checked the BLM website, but I knew the 30,000 number was low. 

A moderator is sort of like a hall monitor. The job is to keep the forum running smoothly, and keep it a friendly and welcoming. In collaboration with the other moderators, we edit, move and delete posts and issue warnings, infractions and bans to members.

Spastic Dove and I are Super Moderators well, because we're both super.


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

mbender said:


> The ranchers can't send their cattle out to pasture because the mustangs have over grazed the land. _Posted via Mobile Device_


And when the ranchers' cattle aren't grazing on the BLM ranges, the ranchers are elsewhere...they are not riding the range and protecting the grass from overgrazing, they are not tending the water tanks that the RANCHERS installed and maintain, which the mustangs use. If you want to protect the mustangs, you should protect the RANCHERS first. Without the ranchers, the watering places go dry and the grass is destroyed.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

I would never support or protect ranchers...AND THE MUSTANGS HAVENT OVER GRAZED THE LAND THE CATTLE DID! The BLM EA is over 12 years old and therefore out dated, the conditions have changed....The BLM doesnt even follow there own rules, recently they rounded up during foal season, breaking their own long standing rule. They push horses for miles, and they dont even give a crap, just think about bravheart...the BLM so called "cowboys" talked as he died-


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## Lis (Oct 29, 2009)

Site4pets read the link I posted. That review has just been completed and it comes out in favour of the BLM. Mustangs need controlling otherwise nature would step and limit the population through starvation, disease etc etc. It happens and unfortunatly before it did other species would suffer because of a non native species eating their food.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Young teen or not, I think this person comes here just to incite others with her screaming, ranting, inflammatory posts. Why_ else_ would she bother to bring this thread back up, when it hadn't been posted to for over 2 weeks? :?

She's of no worth to this BB whatsoever, since rational discussion is apparently not within her mental capabilities. 

She's nothing but a shill for the animal rights terrorists, and anyone that doesn't agree with her biased, slanted view of things is ignored, whether or not they have proof of what's _actually_ true.

I'd like to see her banned, because I think she's nothing but a troll, regardless of her age.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Lis said:


> Site4pets read the link I posted. That review has just been completed and it comes out in favour of the BLM. Mustangs need controlling otherwise nature would step and limit the population through starvation, disease etc etc. It happens and unfortunatly before it did other species would suffer because of a non native species eating their food.


I live right beside a town that hasnt done roundup for years and they have quite a few large mustang herds...those horses are at a healthy weight, and the grass is green and tall...Im aware some areas need the roundup, like Nevada. I just wish they would be more careful and treat the horses and burros better. Madeline Pickens just saved 235 mustangs on Christmas eve from BLM holding pens, i dont see why they stash so many away in pens when so many more people could adopt them....


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## Ladytrails (Jul 28, 2010)

I don't know anyone who wants to see any animals starve or be so weakened that they become easy prey for predators. Unfortunately, that's the terrifying fate of some of the BLM horses if their population can't be controlled. There is an abundance of emotion about this topic; there are people passionate for the best interests of the BLM herds on both sides of the question - for the roundups and against the roundups. What we need is not more emotion, not more anecdotal stories that sensationalize the plight of individual animals, we need humane and respectful solutions for tens of thousands of animals. The problem is huge and all proposed solutions are expensive and/or emotionally tough.

Pets, you said " Madeline Pickens just saved 235 mustangs on Christmas eve from BLM holding pens, i dont see why they stash so many away in pens when so many more people could adopt them." Good for her. She is a gazillionaire. She has also bought up tens of thousands of acres in the west to create a horse refuge but she is not accepting horses yet because she won't keep them for free - she wants taxpayers to pay her millions of dollars for her "good deeds." She has not created a solution, she has just created a storage facility. A storage facility will eventually run out of room and we will still not have a solution that is healthy and respectful of the remaining herds. 

Also, the horses are in pens because the adoptions are way, way down. People are getting rid of their trained horses because of the expense; not very many people have the facilities or skills to actually deal with a mustang. The Mustang Makeovers (did I get the name right?) were developed to try to stimulate the market for mustangs, to show what is possible with a good trainer.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

And the propaganda video you posted was made by a fanatical "activist" group. The narration is ridiculously over the top, giving human emotions AND titles to the horses. The weanling is not a child, and if the mare and foal were domesticated and weaned, the reaction is often EXACTLY the same. When they were cantering into the trap, none of them were panicked, or even running hard. They did not appear to be overly stressed. To me the reaction of the stallion was a normal one trying to drive the strange horse away from his mares. Yes, the rider should have known not to tie his horse so close, and an accident occurred, but that is absolutely the only thing even remotely wrong with the whole thing. The reason the BLM is limiting access to the "activists" is because they are a fanatical group that turns everything into an abuse case, no matter what the facts are. They twist the reality to give the public a skewed version of the truth.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> Young teen or not, I think this person comes here just to incite others with her screaming, ranting, inflammatory posts. Why_ else_ would she bother to bring this thread back up, when it hadn't been posted to for over 2 weeks? :?
> 
> She's of no worth to this BB whatsoever, since rational discussion is apparently not within her mental capabilities.
> 
> ...




I ask for peoples opinions on things just to see what they think...your the one putting up defenses and only saying that proof is propaganda when its not. We all have our opinions though and im sticking with mine just as you are with yours, i asked for opinions and im happy im getting them, not my fault a forum moderator shuts down all the threads just because of what people are saying, i think we can all handle a few cause words and want go hide in a hole to cry.... well some of us


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

I don't see BLM doing anything more than simply trying to help these animals. I think they are better off in captivity than they are in the wild.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

apachiedragon said:


> And the propaganda video you posted was made by a fanatical "activist" group. The narration is ridiculously over the top, giving human emotions AND titles to the horses. The weanling is not a child, and if the mare and foal were domesticated and weaned, the reaction is often EXACTLY the same. When they were cantering into the trap, none of them were panicked, or even running hard. They did not appear to be overly stressed. To me the reaction of the stallion was a normal one trying to drive the strange horse away from his mares. Yes, the rider should have known not to tie his horse so close, and an accident occurred, but that is absolutely the only thing even remotely wrong with the whole thing. The reason the BLM is limiting access to the "activists" is because they are a fanatical group that turns everything into an abuse case, no matter what the facts are. They twist the reality to give the public a skewed version of the truth.


After "years" of "experience" the BLM "cowboys" have had you think they would know better. They could have done something for the poor stallion, they didnt have to let it suffer.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

At least 218 other people know the truth...
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/stop-2011-roundup/


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

site4pets said:


> After "years" of "experience" the BLM "cowboys" have had you think they would know better.


I guess you've never made a mistake in your life...


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

218 other preteens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

site4pets said:


> At least 218 other people know the truth...
> http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/stop-2011-roundup/


Hardly. All that means is there are 218 other deluded people who have no ability to think for themselves.

You'd have been a _great_ Jim Jones follower. You spout only the party line and have no desire to actually find out the truth, when it's easier just to believe the crap spewed by a bunch of slavering fanatics.

Besides, those petition sites are a joke. They're for people who talk the talk, but don't want to get off their lazy asses to actually _do_ anything. It's much easier just to spout garbage and do nothing.


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

> I would never support or protect ranchers...


Wow... nice to think you don't like people who are probably the hardest workers for just a buck in this country.....


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

If only they made tasty koolaid for the mustang bleedy hearts, ya knwo the special kind... thatd be 218 less petitioners to waste paper and trees.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Oh, they don't use trees! All they do is cower behind their computer screen. No paper necessary!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Katesrider011 said:


> I don't see BLM doing anything more than simply trying to help these animals.


I agree, Katesrider!

What is best is not always the prettiest option. So true with so many things in life.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

So they waste electricity=coal... that is nice too, but they care sooo much about those poor little pwetty ponies, heck with global warming or any ya know"real" problems.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

What is extra funny about this is - I was stuck watching one of the Cloud episodes on PBS the other night. The majority of the horses were fugly and unhealthy looking.

I totally miss how people like the OP think living wild and dying with no care and no food and such is so much better than being given good care.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Global warming. :lol:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ridesapaintedpony (Apr 14, 2009)

site4pets said:


> I would never support or protect ranchers...AND THE MUSTANGS HAVENT OVER GRAZED THE LAND THE CATTLE DID! The BLM EA is over 12 years old and therefore out dated, the conditions have changed....The BLM doesnt even follow there own rules, recently they rounded up during foal season, breaking their own long standing rule. They push horses for miles, and they dont even give a crap, just think about bravheart...the BLM so called "cowboys" talked as he died-
> YouTube - The Death Of Braveheart (a Wild Stallion)


Child? That right there tells me whoever is narrating this is clueless.


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## GreyRay (Jun 15, 2010)

Sunny said:


> Global warming. :lol:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Unfortunatly, I havent seen any over here <--- super sad face, but I cant cry or my face will freeze.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Facts for the dummies-

if you havent noticed no one on this forum rlly likes horses. Im aware the BLM is cruel, and here are the numbers-























Today, fewer than 33,000 wild horses likely remain on public lands.
Over 2 million head of private livestock enjoy subsidized grazing on public lands.
 More than 250,000 wild horses and burros have been removed from public lands since 1971. The BLM plans to remove another 12,000 for Fiscal Year 2010.
 The 1971 Wild Free-Roaming Horse and Burro Act mandated that wild horses and burros be protected and managed on "areas where presently found," which included 47 million acres of public lands on 303 herd areas.
 Since 1971, wild horses have been zeroed out from 111 herd areas representing over 20 million acres; 2.4 million acres of wild horse habitat were lost between 2005 and 2009 alone.
 Burros share their habitat with bighorn sheep, a highly-prized game species that now outnumbers them at least 16 to 1 on public lands. BLM’s target for nationwide burro population is less than 3,000.
 BLM relies on an annual population increase rate of about 20% to evaluate population levels and justify round-ups of wild horses and burros, while the *National Academy of Sciences* estimates that rate to be closer to 10%.
 Wild horses account for less than 0.5% of large grazing animals on public lands.
 6 states have lost their entire wild horse and burro populations.
 In 70% of the remaining herd areas, BLM’s population targets are set at levels that will not ensure *genetic viability*.
 The current removal policy is costing over 60 million tax dollars a year.
In 2008, less than 5% of BLM’s wild horse and burro program budget was allocated to herd management on the range, with the remaining 95% allocated to captures, holding, and placement.
 According to the USGS, $7.7 million could be saved annually through the use of *contraceptive measures* alone.
 The removal and processing of a single horse through the adoption pipeline can cost as much as $3,000.
 Over 36,000 wild horses are currently held in government holding pens.
Livestock grazing is authorized on five times more acres of BLM land than wild horses (160 million acres for livestock vs. 26.6 million acres [shared with livestock] for horses and burros).
 Publicly-subsidized livestock grazing on public lands costs taxpayers in excess of $132 million annually, yet cattle grazed on public lands provide just 3% of the nation's beef supply.
 Private livestock outnumber wild horses and burros on public land by at least 50 to 1 (note: some livestock may not be grazed year round).

And if the BLM really cares about horses they would have taken pickens up on her offer for a alternative to stop the Nevada roundups for a few months, and foor less money she would build holding pens to keep the horses in adjenct to their homeland. see here-
American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign


Thanks for posting this thread...at least some "horse lovers" care!







oh no! it looks like over 56,000 other ppl are against the roundups too...
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/517/697/713/

so srry

​


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

Tehee. Facts for dummies? :rofl: Uhm We do care about horses, we have our horses who are outside and are healthy as can be and who are loved to prove it! Just look at my avatar, and look at everyone else's. Does it look like we don't care about horse's? Didn't think so. Quit worrying about horses that aren't even yours. It's not the end of the world cause the poor little horsey can't be "free" anymore. I don't think it gives a crap. It's gonna have grass, food, and care from it's owner that it won't have a care in the world. 

Unlike some people, we see the BLM as helping these animals. The BLM is trying to find them good homes. Where they WON'T starve and get sick like they do out in the wild. If you cared for horses, you'd see that these horses need good homes where their lifespan is MUCH LONGER than the "wild" Horses.


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## DunOverIt (Dec 14, 2010)

She needs to contain herself to Peta2. 

It's a staple of an "animal rights" nut to assume some sort of superiority for their super "humane" lifestyle. Even if that lifestyle is only equal to sitting on a computer signing online petitions, trolling forums, and getting they're latest propaganda from PETA to hand out to confused kindergarten kids. 

I put her posts up there with the rest of the comments I've seen on other forums..

"Eggs have aids" 

"Beef cattle spend their entire lives in concrete, dark buildings, with little feed and water" 

"AI is rape"

And the like..


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

_site4pets-_ Who ****ed in your carrot latte ?



> if you haven't noticed no one on this forum rlly likes horses.


_(Knocks your breyer horse off shelf...)_
Obliviously we do otherwise we wouldn't be involved with a _horseforum_ showing off our horses and giving and receiving knowledge. 
We just don't play the same horse fantasy game as you.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

OH...MY...GOD...
I just saw on your profile that you actually own a horse...

OWN... Did you know that thats abusive? To contain a wild animal? It should be in the wild with cloud the mustang and his family ! I cant believe you actually have a poor horse in a pen.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

ROFL @ lacyloo.

If we keep feeding the troll, she will keep coming back. :roll:


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

My question is why isn't she banned? She has nothing to offer but insults and propaganda and both of those seem to have been covered rather well with this thread.


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Kevin, I'm rather surprised myself, since she admitted in another thread that she flat out lied and made up stories about finding the owner of the three horses she had "found", just to get the other forum members off her back. I'm amazed she made it past that one.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

*throws some vowels to site4pets*


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> My question is why isn't she banned? She has nothing to offer but insults and propaganda and both of those seem to have been covered rather well with this thread.


Start a thread in the pow wow section or send Mike a PM and ask.

I am guessing the mods do not keep track of every last poster and everything they post. If we do not point out that someone only comes to make trouble they probably do not notice.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I'm okay with it because I kind of like poking her with a stick and it may open the eyes of someone less proud of his/her ignorance.


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## blacksplash (Jan 17, 2011)

its people like site4pets that make life really difficult for people who genuinly care about animal welfare enough to do what needs to be done. and its not just with horses. i face a similar problem at home with foxes.my area is overpopulated with these animals and they are undernorished, mange infested half dead animals. in areas where they are being controlled there is plenty of food, habitat ect and they are much heathier. i know they are foxes, not horses, but its the exact same principle. controling the numbers= heathier animals. if these people actally go out into the real world and see for themselves the damage overpopulation causes instead of sitting infront of their computer copying and pasting from a peta website on a subject they clearly havent a clue about, then mabey they would let the people who really care about animals do they're job. 
having said that, i dont think this person really cares about animal welfare, in one of her other posts she wouldnt get a vet for her sick horse, fed straw to her horses instead of proper feed and lacks the most basic knowledge about horse care. her horse would probably be better off taking its chances in the wild.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

blacksplash said:


> its people like site4pets that make life really difficult for people who genuinly care about animal welfare enough to do what needs to be done. and its not just with horses. i face a similar problem at home with foxes.my area is overpopulated with these animals and they are undernorished, mange infested half dead animals. in areas where they are being controlled there is plenty of food, habitat ect and they are much heathier. i know they are foxes, not horses, but its the exact same principle. controling the numbers= heathier animals. if these people actally go out into the real world and see for themselves the damage overpopulation causes instead of sitting infront of their computer copying and pasting from a peta website on a subject they clearly havent a clue about, then mabey they would let the people who really care about animals do they're job.
> having said that, i dont think this person really cares about animal welfare, in one of her other posts she wouldnt get a vet for her sick horse, fed straw to her horses instead of proper feed and lacks the most basic knowledge about horse care. her horse would probably be better off taking its chances in the wild.


 THANK YOU!!!!! :clap:

_btw_ - We really do need a fox season.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Didn't she already get banned before??


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

I love this thread. Read the whole thing.

I think its funny how people forget that wild horses aren't natural to the Americas. Just like goldfish in our lakes, they're pests. We just like them better because they have expressive faces, unlike goldfish, snails, and plants. While I do believe mustangs have a "magical" quality to them, I think it may be best in the long run if they were all gathered up and sold/slaughted. While there are other ideas, really, we can't live with one or the other. 

For reference, I live in suburbia New Jersey. I have never seen a wild horse in my life, so I do not have a personal emotional attachment to them. I'm not saying that other methods are wrong, but that almost any other option seems unreasonable. (But now that I'm thinking about it, no more unreasonable than MY idea.)


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

I think alot about the emotional attachment is due to all the wild horse movies like the black stallion, flicka etc. I know I grew up loving the mustang and I thought the BLM was the devil...

Well thanks to forums like these I realized that we do not live in a fantasy world where horses run free and happy. This forum also changed my mind about horse slaughter. I was one of those "omg poor pony !!!" kind of girls.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

Tymer said:


> I love this thread. Read the whole thing.
> 
> I think its funny how people forget that wild horses aren't natural to the Americas. Just like goldfish in our lakes, they're pests. We just like them better because they have expressive faces, unlike goldfish, snails, and plants. While I do believe mustangs have a "magical" quality to them, I think it may be best in the long run if they were all gathered up and sold/slaughted. While there are other ideas, really, we can't live with one or the other.
> 
> For reference, I live in suburbia New Jersey. I have never seen a wild horse in my life, so I do not have a personal emotional attachment to them. I'm not saying that other methods are wrong, but that almost any other option seems unreasonable. (But now that I'm thinking about it, no more unreasonable than MY idea.)


I don't think we should slaughter them all. I think maybe a select few go up for adoption and another select few go to slaughter. Cause I mean wiping out all those horses just doesn't seem quite right to me.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Hmm, but The Black Stallion was a supremely bred and highly prized Arabian.


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## lacyloo (Jul 1, 2008)

Eolith said:


> Hmm, but The Black Stallion was a supremely bred and highly prized Arabian.


 Yeah I know I got the move names wrong, I haven't seen them in years :lol:


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I thought this thread was dead.


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## Nine (May 25, 2008)

It seems to me that if you owned a brood mare, you would want her to have good vet care, to have a healthy foal. If _I_ owned a broodmare, I'd want to give her a break from foaling every few years. This doesn't happen with mustangs. They breed and breed. Some breedings don't take, but most do. It's a hard life, when water and food are not adequate. I think the BLM should do more birth-control on herds, than rounding them up and _hoping_ these horses get adopted. There are just too many horses, not enough people to adopt and actually know what they're doing. I owned a mustang. Bless his soul, he was the love of my life. He was a wonderful companion and the hardiest horse I've ever seen. I was lucky to be his human. But not all of the mustangs are gonna get a good home. The numbers are what they are. So rather than see them starve or die of thirst, and until the number of mustangs are down to a reasonable level, the only choice is to round them up. By the way, site4pets, do *you* own a mustang? Just curious....


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

flytobecat said:


> I thought this thread was dead.


It was. The OP is a troll that apparently got bored again and decided to try to stir the pot for some entertainment...


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## Tymer (Dec 28, 2009)

Katesrider011 said:


> I don't think we should slaughter them all. I think maybe a select few go up for adoption and another select few go to slaughter. Cause I mean wiping out all those horses just doesn't seem quite right to me.


AH! I'm gonna let this thread die as it should, but I really need to correct this...

I meant more along the lines of sell the ones that are sell-able and slaughter the ones that are too ugly to bear (donkey-cow-squirrel-dinosaur looking horses).


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Nine said:


> It seems to me that if you owned a brood mare, you would want her to have good vet care, to have a healthy foal. If _I_ owned a broodmare, I'd want to give her a break from foaling every few years. This doesn't happen with mustangs. They breed and breed. Some breedings don't take, but most do. It's a hard life, when water and food are not adequate. I think the BLM should do more birth-control on herds, than rounding them up and _hoping_ these horses get adopted. There are just too many horses, not enough people to adopt and actually know what they're doing.


I agree! Birth control and abortions... And yeah I support it lol


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

JustDressageIt said:


> *throws some vowels to site4pets*


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

JDI, have I mentioned lately that I love you? :hug:


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## Nine (May 25, 2008)

Sorry, I didn't know this "thread was dead". I just happened on it and didn't look at the dates. Thanks for answering anyway.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Okay everyone...If the BLM is so great, why did they ignore Miss Pickens offer to build a eco-santuary here-
American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign

That would be closer to the roundup area, AND CHEAPER? Instead yesterday they continued with the roundup-
Antelope Complex Roundup Begins | American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign

So if ther BLM is so great and only cares about the horses, why didnt they go ahead and except the offer? Its cheaper, safer, quicker, and easier for everyone, most certainly the horses.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

site4pets said:


> Okay everyone...If the BLM is so great, why did they ignore Miss Pickens offer to build a eco-santuary here-
> American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign
> .


Facts are scary to you, aren't they?

She was not building a sanctuary on her own dime. It was going to cost the BLM more money per year in 'board' fees to her than it cost them to care for the horses at their own facility.

The horses would continue to breed, etc too. How is that eco friendly?

Seems like a pretty obvious reason to not take her up on her 'offer'.


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## Nine (May 25, 2008)

That's what happens, when the government takes controll. They don't have to make sense. They're the government. Unfortunately, the smartest guy/woman isn't always in charge.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

site4pets said:


> So if ther BLM is so great and only cares about the horses, why didnt they go ahead and except the offer? Its cheaper, safer, quicker, and easier for everyone, most certainly the horses.


The word is _accept_. _Except_ means something else entirely. Why are all these trolls at best only semi literate? :?

No, it's not cheaper for anyone _except_ Ms. Pickens. (See how I used that word correctly?) 

It would also be extremely lucrative for_ her_, since she wants to charge the BLM (meaning us taxpayers) to keep these horses on her land, which means MORE money, not less. So not cheaper, much, much more expensive.

Do you even READ anything, or just spout off without knowing your subject? That was actually a rhetorical question, since I already know the answer. Look up _rhetorical_, m'kay?


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

site4pets said:


> Okay everyone...If the BLM is so great, why did they ignore Miss Pickens offer to build a eco-santuary here-
> American Wild Horse Preservation Campaign
> 
> That would be closer to the roundup area, AND CHEAPER? Instead yesterday they continued with the roundup-
> ...


Oh. My. God. How horrible, one person comes up expecting BLM to accept her offer. It didn't work, cause BLM turned it down for legit reasons. BLM is so cruel, waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> The word is _accept_. _Except_ means something else entirely. Why are all these trolls at best only semi literate? :?
> 
> No, it's not cheaper for anyone _except_ Ms. Pickens. (See how I used that word correctly?)
> 
> Look up _rhetorical_, m'kay?


 
:rofl:


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm actually surprised those horses in the pictures look that good! You should really put your efforts into birth control for the horses so they wont have to be rounded up and will keep the numbers at a good level.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Ray MacDonald said:


> I'm actually surprised those horses in the pictures look that good! You should really put your efforts into birth control for the horses so they wont have to be rounded up and will keep the numbers at a good level.


 yay, someone with an alternative of roundups...:wink:


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

site4pets said:


> yay, someone with an alternative of roundups...:wink:


Ray is a young a teen, so unfortunately she has no real idea of how the world works. I like Ray because she's a good kid, but she's still a kid.

Birth control isn't feasible, for many reasons. If it were, we'd certainly be using it on the over abundance of deer and other wildlife.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

It seems I saw somewhere that some people were freaking out about the birth control Idea too. I could be wrong. That'd be a hell of a lot of birth control though.


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

Oh no the mustangs are going to disappear! 

Dont worry I have a simple solution! If they are gone I can just buy up 50 mares and stallions from the local livestock auction for a buck and release them! Within two years we will have happy frolicing bouncy foals, that we can call mustangs, to enjoy that have never seen or have been touched by humans!

Sorry.... that seemed a bit harsh but guess what... life is tough get over it.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Speed Racer said:


> Ray is a young a teen, so unfortunately she has no real idea of how the world works. I like Ray because she's a good kid, but she's still a kid.
> 
> Birth control isn't feasible, for many reasons. If it were, we'd certainly be using it on the over abundance of deer and other wildlife.


Thanks speed LOL 

Why wouldn't it be feasible? too expensive?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Ray, part of it is the expense, which would be massively prohibitive. Another part is that some horses would be missed, and on others birth control just wouldn't work.

Plus, any time you artificially reduce births, nature compensates by making the remaining population even more fertile. So unless we're willing to wipe out the feral horses completely, birth control really isn't a viable option.

As I said, if it was actually a workable plan, we'd have already used it on the deer population explosion, as well as other 'undesirable' wildlife such as coyotes and black bear.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Wow, I didn't know that thanks!

I heard of "the more you try to keep them down the more fertile/pups would be produced"

We have _a lot_ of coyotes here and I think we have some kind of law thing that you can hunt/kill them and sell their pelts. I thought if you kept killing them, then they would just have more pups.

I just thought it sounded... less cruel.. lol not that the round ups are but I always think there is a kinder way to do things.


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## xXEventerXx (Nov 27, 2010)

The government should find land that the horses can live and breed on, they need to keep the mustang breed alive, there meant to be free. I dont think farmers should be allowed to shoot and kill mustangs or be rounded up. In parts of canada we have preserved land just for wild mustangs, buffalo.. ect and it was watched over by rangers


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Why not geld the stallys? what problem would then arise?


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

And what about when that land is grazed down and the horses begin to starve?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xXEventerXx (Nov 27, 2010)

if there is alot of land horses wont eat it ALL down for them to starve,,


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Want to bet?

And if it's soooooo much land, how will the government pay for it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xXEventerXx (Nov 27, 2010)

... The government owns the land already.. its called crown land, here in alberta there is ALOT of crown land, and the goverment uses some of it already for farmers, cattle grazing, wild horses already,... ect .. trust me i know. 

There is a herd of 200 north west right now on crown land

And not many people know but even if you "own land" you actually dont own it the goverment does.. your basically renting it.. if the government wants it for oil.. grazing w.e they can have it.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Yeah, I have seen some REALLY scrawny looking mustangs because of over grazing. Even if there was plenty of grass, what about the winter? when there is no grass?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

That's the problem in a nutshell. There isn't enough land to be had, even if there was, there isn't enough money to pay for it, and even if there was, the horse population would continue to grow until every bit of that land was grazed down to nothing just like the land they already have. The only option is aggressive population control.

I love mustangs, but I am not willing to give up farm land or cattle range just so that they can run free on the limitless prairie. I like being able to afford a loaf of bread or a steak when I want it. To take land away from farmers and ranchers is to risk famine. To me, feral horses just aren't worth that.


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## xXEventerXx (Nov 27, 2010)

Horses paw for food in the winter and they also dont need water, ive seen wild horses eat shrubs, pines.. they dont usually eat pines because they dont taste good but they will eat it if hungry. Most of the time they are skinny because of worms,, they are not being dewormed like our horses are. Over grazing is a issue yes but that just means they are not gettin enough land and to big of a herd for that amount of land they have


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Exactly.

The land will never be over-grazed? In 20 years? 50? 100? When there are ten times as many horses?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## xXEventerXx (Nov 27, 2010)

People over breed there horses as it is, look how many horses there are in slaugher houses, people want to stop the buisness of horse meat but it wont ever happen when horses will continues to breed.. there are to many horses in north america and not enough people to take care of them. People need to stop breeding horses to much... basically use what we got till the population decreases haha. Mustang population can be controlled i just think they should still be free roaming.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

I propose that it is animal cruelty for them to roam free! 

*There will never be enough land
*Not enough food
*Over breeding
*No vet care

It also sounds just like a backyard breeder would take better care for their horses than if they were wild...


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## xXEventerXx (Nov 27, 2010)

Well all i have to say is... the world is over populated with people, horses,, and more... you know why cause we know alot about healthcare now and people are living longer and more people are being born .. same with horses. 

Wild horses dont need vets(healthcare) they are born , they die its natural 
no wonder we have too many horses, sometimes we have to just let it happen.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Oh, I agree. You can't save them all. But it does sound better to live in a barn and have a little girl love you and hug you and make sure you have lots to eat and vet care. It just sounds like a better and easier way to live.

BUT if we did do something like birth control you can minimize some of the population MEANING... There will be more grass for their limited land, and mares wouldn't have to breed every year. We could give them a year or two off from breeding.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

xXEventerXx said:


> ... The government owns the land already.. its called crown land, here in alberta there is ALOT of crown land, and the goverment uses some of it already for farmers, cattle grazing, wild horses already,... ect .. trust me i know.
> 
> There is a herd of 200 north west right now on crown land
> 
> And not many people know but even if you "own land" you actually dont own it the goverment does.. your basically renting it.. if the government wants it for oil.. grazing w.e they can have it.


While a lot of the ground here in the western U.S. is owned by the Government we have a thing called private property rights. This means that except for very limited circumstances the government can't take our land. It goes way back to 1776 and a little thing called the Declaration of Indepenence. We really "own land" here in the U.S. The land these horses are on is very dry, fragile land. Most of it has less than 8 inches of precip per year. There can be thousands of acres but the animals concentrate around the water. The carrying capacity varies greatly year to year based on rainfall and snowpack. If you have never seen this land and worked on this land for your livelyhood it would be difficult for you to understand the complexity that comes with good management. Livestock is grazed only under close supervision and only at certain seasons. Horses stay there year round and do significant damage.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Geesh! You poor ignorant people. Do you not know or read anything to learn how the real world really works?

Let me get this straight.........

You want them to use 'birth control' on the wild horses so they don't have to round them up. 

Excuse me.......... you have to round them up to use any method of birth control. The shots that work for about a year require rounding them up and giving the mares the shot every year.

The glass marbles inserted into the uterus to trick the mares' reproductive systems into thinking they are pregnant require that the horses be rounded up to insert the marbles. At best, they are only 30% effective and usually for less than a year.

You think they should put some magic potion in the watering holes? Well then, you should get a big research grant and develop such a thing because it does not exist now. 

While castrating males sounds good, you would have to round up every herd every year to remove all of the males and one missed here and one missed there would still breed 30 or 40 mares each if they had no competition.

Another method would be to give dominant stallions surgical vasectomies. These stallions would still keep their herd of mares and would not let any other stallions near to breed them but would not get any pregnant. Sounds great, but again, you have to round up the herds to do it and it is a complicated surgery on a horse that would require general anesthesia. Too complicated and too expensive. 

The biggest problem facing the BLM and the whole country now is that it costs millions of dollars a year to care for the 30,000 feral horses that are now in permanent holding facilities. The economy and the drastic drop in the value of good horses has brought adoptions to a near standstill. The new Congress is going to revolt at putting more and more millions into keeping thousands of feral horses until all of them die of old age. Heck ---- I am revolting!

I, for one, am sick and tired of endless tax dollars I pay into our govt. going to endless and pointless warehousing of thousands of feral horses while the BLM (the largest horse breeder in the world) keeps churning out 8,000 to 10,000 more feral foals every year. Without roundups and removal of many, that number could easily turn into 25,000 foals a year. 

Oh well, all you horsie idealists can go back to your unrealistic dreaming of how to waste my tax dollars. Maybe when you grow up and are paying into the endless system of waste you will have a little more realistic view. It will no longer be just pretty rainbows and butterfly farts.


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## xXEventerXx (Nov 27, 2010)

^^^^ so many bad words im thinking about calling you right now...

if you havent noticed everyone PAYS TAXES ... so dont make it sound like ur so special


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

Cherie said:


> Geesh! You poor ignorant people. Do you not know or read anything to learn how the real world really works?
> 
> Let me get this straight.........
> 
> ...


I'm not ignorant. Nor are all the other people who are for the round up ignorant either. There's only been one person on here I could describe as that. 

By the way, paying taxes is a part of REALITY as well. Everyone will have to do it. Just cause you're sick of paying money for it doesn't mean every human being is. And don't dare call us ignorant cause of it. There's a hell of a lot of crap out there I don't want to pay for and that my parents don't want to pay for, but not much you can do about it. Do I think they should send every horse to the pen? No I think they should select a bunch to go to slaughter as well, and another bunch to be adopted. If you haven't noticed, taxes aren't going away.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

Cherie said:


> Geesh! You poor ignorant people. Do you not know or read anything to learn how the real world really works?
> 
> Let me get this straight.........
> 
> ...


You have to pay taxes no mater where the money goes. So would you rather pay for wild horses or lazy trailer trash that pops out baby like a robot to get our tax money?


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## flytobecat (Mar 28, 2010)

I still stand by my original post. 
Round them up, adopt out what people will take, & cull the population in half or even a third, manage the population with goal of improving the remaining stock. 
I may be wrong, but I don't think there are a lot of natural predators out there except maybe disease & starvation (did I use the word right Speed) that are going to decimate a smaller mustang population.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Good post Fly, and yes, you used your words correctly. :wink:

For those of you talking about taxation, you have _no_ idea what it's all about unless you're an adult. As children, you have no clue how insidious the county, state, and federal governments are when it comes to dipping into our paychecks to pay for 'pet' projects such as keeping feral horses in holding pens until they drop dead. :?

I for one am sick to death of all the taxes. When you children start working for a living and support yourselves, instead of living in Mumsy and Daddum's house and having everything bought for you, you're going to have a harsh wake up call.

Are you aware that almost *30%* of my wages goes to taxes? How is that fair? And yet you think adding_ more_ burden onto us taxpayers is something we won't kick and scream about? 

Wait until you're out in the cold, hard world and have a large percentage of your money taken from you by the government. I'll bet you change your tune right quick!

I don't want ANY MORE taxes added to my already overburdened paycheck. If it means the feral horses are wiped out unless I hand over even_ more_ of my hard earned money, I say kill 'em all.

BLM stands for Bureau of *Land* Management, not Bureau of Keeping Feral Horses Alive. The BLM is charged with keeping the ecology of the LAND in good shape, not letting a non-native, invasive species run rampant over it and destroying the delicate balance of the established ecosystem.

Horses are not native to North America any more than nutria or kudzu, both of which have caused massive problems for native plants and animals.

I also don't understand why some of you think it's easy to come up with solutions. Most of the pie-in-the-sky ideas you think are such a revelation, have already been considered and discarded because of various reasons.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

My mom gets $1,000 and then some off her pay check for taxes, so I'm pretty educated about the real world for my age  But just as speed said taxes wont go away and they are used for other things and problems too, not just horses.

I though using birth control would stop some of the creation of foals so there aren't as many.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

Birth control just seems a bit much. I think I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut on this one though and let the world go its course now.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I think Cherie makes a bunch of good points.

SR, explained the taxes thing well too.

If I had my entire pay check to spend I would gladly send money to lots of things to help out. Since my pay check is cut by 1/3 AND I still have to pay exorbitant property taxes on top of that, I do not see feral horses as something I want to increase my already over burdened pay check with.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Why do you think that?


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Ray MacDonald said:


> Why do you think that?


Did you read Cherie's post? It is explained pretty well there why birth control will not work well.

Gelding for sure will not work well unless you geld every last one of them. It only takes one male to impregnate lots of females.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Oh understood it when speed informed me on it. I get it will not work 100% all of the time but it could help to slowly reduce herds. I have only heard about darting them, not rounding them up and putting marbles?? 

Anyway I know nobody would do it because it would cost a lot.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes Ray, it's extremely costly, and wouldn't stop the round ups in any case, because the horses would have to be rounded up to do the surgeries and medical procedures.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Yeah that kinda sucks, I don't think the round ups are horrible, I just thought it would decrease the horse population a bit. 

As long as they do it to their best ability and safely as possible, you can't prevent accidents 100% of the time. My mare actually smashed into a board yesterday.... god she's a spazz... I aimed her right at the pasture gate and she whipped around and ran into the board and broke it! I did not see that coming lol


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

They would also have to develop an easy way to mark them so they know who has received their 'shot' and who has not.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

True, and notching their ears wouldn't work, because so many feral horses have notched ears from fighting or getting caught in something.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

What about cutting their tail? OR OR we could put pretty colored fake manes!! ahahaha lolol jk.... what about taking a chunk of hair out of their mane? do it in different places each time?


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Nope, they pull out their manes and tails all the time. As do my domestic horses. Especially the ones I want to ride in public. :-x

There's really nothing permanent we can do short of docking their tails (which would be cruel), that would mark the horses already given BC or spayed.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Ahahahhaaha! Nice! I guess you could brand them but to get branded every time they got a shot? unless they were spayed. That would be a good fix too but again it would be hard to do.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Ray MacDonald said:


> Ahahahhaaha! Nice! I guess you could brand them but to get branded every time they got a shot? unless they were spayed. That would be a good fix too but again it would be hard to do.


But if you think about it, all this still requires them to be rounded up. 

The round up is one of the things the animal rights fanatics complain about.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Yeah, it would be kind of hard to do anything with it running around a field lol unless you shoot it... not fun..


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

myhorsesonador said:


> You have to pay taxes no mater where the money goes. So would you rather pay for wild horses or lazy trailer trash that pops out baby like a robot to get our tax money?


Welfare is welfare. I prefer a human benefit from it than a horse.


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## maura (Nov 21, 2009)

Darn, kevin! Our first big disagreement.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

here's my thinking. I would rather spend the tax money to support 10 lazy, no-good families than have children going to bed hungry. As far as the mustangs go I really think that the states should be in charge of the horses instead of the feds. I also happen to think that the federal government has no business owning more land than they can put courthouses and post offices on but that is another issue entirely.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

kevinshorses said:


> Welfare is welfare. I prefer a human benefit from it than a horse.


I have to disagree greatly. I hate seeing my tax money going to lazy @$$ people that have more kids than they can affored so that all of us hard working people have to pay for them. :evil:


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

I wouldn't want my money going to abunch of lazy people. Now if it was people who desperately need it then that's fine. My dad has shown me places where people are too lazy and run on welfare, and I don't want my money going to them cause they are too lazy (Mississippi Delta) My dad has lived there all throughout his childhood. That to Me is telling them, hey I still have an excuse to sit on my lazy *** and do nothing about getting a job.


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## Eolith (Sep 30, 2007)

Welfare isn't good living.


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## wyominggrandma (Nov 4, 2009)

I noticed the OP has disappeared again. She must have been allowed to get on the computer again or her parents are gone. She just likes to stir the pot.
Her name is stolen from a well known and long established online supply store, she can't even come up with a new name.

Wyoming winters are bitter and cold and the horses have a hard time , alot of folks still expect them to paw through the snow and ice to eat and eat snow. We watch elk, deer, moose struggle to survive our winters, sure don't need any wild horses brought back here. Of course with all the wolves killing all the wild animals in the Park and now coming and killing cattle and horses, guess they could eat a few wild horses also.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Eolith said:


> Welfare isn't good living.


It is for some.

But that is not really the topic of this thread, is it?


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

wyominggrandma said:


> I noticed the OP has disappeared again. She must have been allowed to get on the computer again or her parents are gone. She just likes to stir the pot.


She was probably stuck at home for a snow day or something, and was causing trouble while her parents were at work. :roll:


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Or maybe i just don't live on here, like some. Anyways, i came back, again because recently Congressman Dan Burton did a speech about how the BLM is mismanaging horses. This is the text (View the video here of the speech here-http://www.wildhorsepreservation.org/news/?p=3449)
BLM MISMANAGEMENT OF WILD HORSES—
(House of Representatives – January 24, 2011)
burtonThe SPEAKER pro tempore. Under a previous order of the House, the gentleman from Indiana (Mr. Burton) is recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. BURTON of Indiana. Mr. Speaker, last week, at the request of a lady named Madeline Pickens, I met with Mr. Bob Abbey, who is the head of the Bureau of Land Management, to talk to him about dealing with the wild horses, the mustangs that roam out west in the western States. The Bureau of Land Management has somewhere between 35,000 and 40,000 of these mustangs in pens around the country; and the cost of this is estimated to be as much as $2,500 per horse per year. The Bureau of Land Management just last week started rounding up another 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 of them to take them to holding pens and move them to Oklahoma.
Now, the thing that’s interesting about this is that when I talked to Mr. Abbey, he admitted that they want to move these horses from Nevada 1,000 miles to Oklahoma in order to put them in these pens. Now Ms. Pickens, she is very concerned about these mustangs because they’re part of America’s heritage, and she wants to protect them as much as possible. Toward that end, she bought two ranches, the Spruce Ranch, which has 14,000 acres in it, and the ranch next to it in Nevada, the Warm Creek Ranch, which has about another 4,000 acres; and then she got permits for another 550,000 acres so that they could put those horses on this land, protect them, and save the taxpayer money and make sure that these horses will not be put in pens and shipped all over the country.
But the Bureau of Land Management is recalcitrant. They want to move these horses 1,000 miles into these pens, and they want to keep them there at a cost of as much as $2,500 per year per horse.
Now, Ms. Pickens says that for $500 a year, she can keep them on her range and protect them, create a kind of museum for these horses so that people can come and see them in the wild. And she would have them injected so that they can’t reproduce; therefore, they wouldn’t have to worry about an expanding population of mustangs, but they would be protected. But the Bureau of Land Management wants to move them a thousand miles, where her ranch and her permits are within just a few miles of where the horses are right now.
Now, when I talked to Mr. Abbey last week, he said that they couldn’t reach an agreement with Ms. Pickens, that there’d have to be some major changes made over at the Bureau of Land Management in order for them to facilitate what she wants to do.
This is another bureaucratic nightmare that we in this Congress should not—and I don’t believe will—put up with. And I’m going to ask the Appropriations Committee to cut the budget of the Bureau of Land Management because they’re wasting the taxpayers’ money by millions and millions and maybe hundreds of millions of dollars.
Last year, the government spent about $144 million managing private livestock on Federal public lands, and they only collect $21 million for grazing rights. So they lost at least $123 million per year. And some people estimate that they lose as much as $500 million a year, half a billion dollars, by keeping these grazing lands in private hands where people get them for almost nothing. $21 million was what the fee was that they got last year.
So they’re losing as much as $500 million; they’re moving these horses up to a thousand miles, and they’re doing it for no good purpose other than the bureaucracy wants to keep control of them.
Now, the reason Ms. Pickens started this organization to protect these mustangs was because, in 2008, the Bureau of Land Management said, well, they weren’t sure they could take care of all of these horses—they have almost 40,000 in these pens right now—so they were thinking about killing them, euthanasia, starting to kill these horses.
Well, the people who love these mustangs and love the West the way it was don’t want this to happen. So they came up with this organization to deal with the problem in a realistic way so that the horses wouldn’t be killed. The organization they started when they heard they were going to euthanize them was called Saving America’s Mustangs, and they offered to enter into a contract with the Bureau of Land Management to relocate at least 9,000 of these horses into these lands that they just bought and got permits for so they wouldn’t have to be shipped to these pens a thousand miles away.
Now, it makes absolutely no sense to me, at a time when we’re fighting fiscal problems in this country—we’ve got trillions of dollars in debt, and unless we start cutting spending, we’re going to see this country go into bankruptcy. Moody’s has already said they may have to reevaluate the bond rating for the country.
Let me just end up, Mr. Speaker, by saying it seems to me that we ought to be frugal with the public’s money. We ought to cut the Bureau of Land Management’s budget so that we can save the money and save the mustangs. That’s what this is all about—a humane way of treating the mustangs in this country, which are a part of our heritage.


As you can see in the speech above, he called it a "bureaucratic nightmare" and HE even said it would save TAXPAYERS money if the horses went to the sanctuary instead of trailered to Oklahoma. So, when a congressman is saying it, and Humane Society of the United States, Madeline Pickens, The Cloud Foundation, Saving America's Mustangs, ASPCA, Return to Freedom, Monero Mustangs, and the over 1200 signers i now have on this petition-


Wild horse roundups are a cruel waste of tax dollars | Petition2Congress

I think you all are a little out numbered...anyways, just wanted to cross-post the story somewhere besides my blogs.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Katesrider011 said:


> I wouldn't want my money going to abunch of lazy people. Now if it was people who desperately need it then that's fine. My dad has shown me places where people are too lazy and run on welfare, and I don't want my money going to them cause they are too lazy (Mississippi Delta) My dad has lived there all throughout his childhood. That to Me is telling them, hey I still have an excuse to sit on my lazy *** and do nothing about getting a job.


 
How did the subject change to welfare? 
Around here tons of people live off welfare, then for some reason hang around walmart all day, though still not enough jobs...


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Firstly I have to say that was kinda funny lol... He will be recognized for 5 minutes... Only 5? wow lolol

I only saw the video, I didn't read anything. But it does sound like a good idea. This woman bought 2 ranches for the mustangs to live on for 1/4 of the price then th BLM.

It is closer so the horses don't have to be taken far (long trailer drive).

And she plans to inject them? I think thats what they said? to manage population.... why don't the just geld all of the stallions in the herd?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I am afraid that Mr. Burton as well as the list of Mustang lovers you posted do not live in the 'REAL WORLD'.

The reason Ms. Pickens' plan was not accepted is that she wants the American people (taxpayers) to pay her $500.00 per year per horse -- that is more than it costs the BLM to feed them in long-term holding facilities. So, there would be no savings and actually would be a cost increase to the Government and the taxpayers.

Mr. Burton was basing his entire rant only on the information he received from people like YOU. He has now been given the actual facts and knows that the AR people have only given him half of the story along with half-truths and outright lies.

You, simply cannot SAVE all of the feral horses out there in this economy. You cannot expect adoptions to keep up with unmanaged breeding in the wild when they have no natural predators other than disease and starvation. [How could adoptions keep pace when you cannot even sell a broke horse for the same amount in this economy?] You simply cannot expect the taxpayers to keep on picking up the tab for thousands and thousands and thousands of feral horses on the Western range.

I live in the real world. I pay taxes like all other productive members of society. We elected people last November that will rein in Federal spending. The feral horses are only going to be one of the casualties of this NEW awakening that the government cannot be all things to all people. Someone has to pay the piper.

I truly do not want all of the feral horses to disappear. I think they deserve their place in American history and think small herds of them should be left (properly managed) in several western management units. They ARE icons of the western and Native American culture. But they cannot be sustained in the numbers they are present in now and they cannot be left to breed and reproduce in unlimited quantities. Their numbers will double every 4 to 6 years to a point that all will perish from parasiteS, disease and starvation. It will not be a pretty site and I don't think any of us want to see thousands of dying horses and THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN!

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming before the troll made her unscheduled appearance.


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Ray MacDonald said:


> Firstly I have to say that was kinda funny lol... He will be recognized for 5 minutes... Only 5? wow lolol
> 
> I only saw the video, I didn't read anything. But it does sound like a good idea. This woman bought 2 ranches for the mustangs to live on for 1/4 of the price then th BLM.
> 
> ...


5 minutes is the maximum time allowed for general speeches, which is what that was considered. Someone agrees (finally...) I think they want to make it temporary in case the population starts to drop, so they can re-breed eventually. But the BLM gave NO explanation of why they refused, Bob Abbey just mumbled something...:lol:


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Cherie said:


> I am afraid that Mr. Burton as well as the list of Mustang lovers you posted do not live in the 'REAL WORLD'.
> 
> The reason Ms. Pickens' plan was not accepted is that she wants the American people (taxpayers) to pay her $500.00 per year per horse -- that is more than it costs the BLM to feed them in long-term holding facilities. So, there would be no savings and actually would be a cost increase to the Government and the taxpayers.
> 
> ...


Maybe you didn't (or couldn't) read the speech, but even Burton said that it would save taxpayers money, the BLM is currently charging Oklahoma tax payers $2000 per year, per horse to house these mustangs. Pickens plan would have saved hundreds of dollars, and would have kept them near the homelands where people could come see them in the WILD!


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

I don't see why they don't just dart the wild horses and throw out straw, then the horses are still in the wild with food, and can't breed.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

site4pets said:


> I don't see why they don't just dart the wild horses and throw out straw, then the horses are still in the wild with food, and can't breed.


The money's gotta come from somewhere to get all the straw. And it'd be a never ending process, that's a lot of straw and money. Not to mention that straw is bad for horses' digestion.


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## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Do you guys saying "Geld the stallys" not realize that if you geld them all, there will be no more mustangs? If none can breed, they will all die off.
So that's not an option for the save-the-horses people.

And of course, if you leave one or two stallions in tact, only more colts will be born, so it would be pointless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## site4pets (Sep 28, 2010)

Katesrider011 said:


> The money's gotta come from somewhere to get all the straw. And it'd be a never ending process, that's a lot of straw and money.


Its still an alternative i wish they would consider. I think lots of people would rather pay for that and mustangs stay free then for them to be rounded up and homeless. We have enough homeless horses, and the BLM rounding them p and trying to adopt them doesn't help. It would be better if they would consider straw, and either spaying mares that show no strong traits, or gelding stallions that don't, they will still need to be rounded, but at least they will be set free again, and if the BLM were to approach it in a more careful and humane way and manage to keep bands together their would be less stress for them all.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

site4pets said:


> Its still an alternative i wish they would consider. I think lots of people would rather pay for that and mustangs stay free then for them to be rounded up and homeless. We have enough homeless horses, and the BLM rounding them p and trying to adopt them doesn't help. It would be better if they would consider straw, and either spaying mares that show no strong traits, or gelding stallions that don't, they will still need to be rounded, but at least they will be set free again, and if the BLM were to approach it in a more careful and humane way and manage to keep bands together their would be less stress for them all.


Straw is bad for horses' digestion. It has very little nutritional value and increases the chances of a horse to colic. So yeah let's use straw so we can reduce the population


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

If only money grew on trees......
The so-called wild horses in north america are really just escapees - they do not belong in the wild in north america. They are descendants of loose domesticated horses. Not to say they aren't pretty or it isn't neat to think of wild horses, but to spend taxpayers' money to support growing herds isn't feasible.
I guess "save the loose domesticated mustangs" isn't as romantic as "save the wild mustangs!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Fluffy Pony (May 2, 2010)

If you keep throwing hay out to 'wild' animals... they will start to depend on the food and won't be 'wild' mustangs anymore.... lol nice way to contradict yourself.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Yes! I read every word of the transcript when it was first released.

YOU and Mr Burton both need to get your facts straight!

The horses that cost $2000.00 per year are the ones near me at the Pauls Valley holding facility where they hold the adoptions. It is the place where the Mustang Makeover horses are picked up. It is also where horses are hauled from to other adoption sites.

The long-term unadoptable horses are held on big ranches like one of our friends own. We know the Drummonds very well. They have a huge ranch in Osage County in Northern OK. They are a long-term holding ranch where horses graze year 'round only being fed hay in the winter when there is snow on the ground and in times of serious drought. These long-term horse holding ranches cost the Federal Government about $450.00 per year per head. These are the same kinds of horses Ms. Pickens agreed to take, so her $500.00 per year per head was more. Obviously, she is not going to run an adoption facility. Pauls Valley has Vets, several workers that work for the BLM. They castrate the stallions coming in, deworm them and sort them by age and feed needs. They have big hay feeders and the horses have access to top quality alfalfa hay 24/7. They contract thousands of tons of top quality alfalfa. They have the most beautiful set of state-of-the-art 8' high pens and chutes under one roof. It is no wonder it costs them $2000.00 per horse per year. I actually thought it cost them more than that. That figure may be arrived at by averaging ALL of the horses' costs -- the long-term ones and the ones at adoption facilities and prison facilities.

Then, there are the hundreds, if not thousands that are being held at prison facilities to be trained by prisoners. They are still supported by the BLM or the prisons would not be able to bear the expense of them. They are one of the few bright spots in the whole program. They are being ridden by many states' Game Wardens and Forest Service personal and Border Patrol agents. They are perfect for those jobs.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Just shoot 'em. Population control is a part of life, I'd love to see you sing your tune when YOU'RE starving on the streets because we have no more land to grow food because all the bleeding hearts want us to stop killing or controlling absolutely everything and just let starvation and disease run rampant. VERY humane.

It's easy to sit on that soapbox when your own life is a walk in the park.


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

Agreed MM. It'd be efficient and humane


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## lildonkey8 (Dec 12, 2010)

site4pets said:


> Just because they aren't worth any money doesn't mean they dont deserve to be treated right.


exactly they deserve just as good of care as a 12,000 dollar horse, in fact, better care


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## Katesrider011 (Oct 29, 2010)

lildonkey8 said:


> exactly they deserve just as good of care as a 12,000 dollar horse, in fact, better care


Well lildonkey they aren't anybodies horses to be cared for. If anything deserves to be treated better it's your own horses. Your own horses should be your priority, not all the others.


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## lildonkey8 (Dec 12, 2010)

^^^ ya i guess that's true


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Honestly, guys, I think our best option is to begin ignoring this particular drama queen. S4P has already been caught in several lies and the only posts she has made recently are simply an attempt to stir up drama and try to play us for attention.

It's fun to play with some trolls but this is getting ridiculous. I am willing to bet if we ignore it, it will go away.


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