# Shocking tank heater?



## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

I have my horses water tank in an insulated box, but from my move it got a bit messed up so the lid doesn't close...kinda ruining the whole insulated box thing..I haven't decided how to go about fixing it yet so I put a tank heater in since we were having some nights in the 20s.

I noticed this morning that it barely looked like the horses had touched their water in two days...odd I thought.

Eneded up trailering out and riding, did 10 miles so I knew my horse was thirsty. He was trying to drink out of puddles...but wasn't interested in water from my trailer (weirdo). So when we got back home I took him straight to water. He dove in..but instantly jolted back like he got shocked? I stuck my hand in...for a good 30 seconds, touched the tank heaters line...everything and didn't feel anything? So I got him to try taking a drink again...and again he acted like he got shocked? Could it be such a small pulse that I can't feel it but he does? I took the heater out and after a lot of convincing got him to drink again.

This is a brand new tank heater, I didn't use one last year in VA, my insulated box was all I needed. Its a tad colder here in OH though and my box is a little warped so letting heat out 

Is there some way to test it? Or has anyone had good luck with a certain heater?

This is the heater I have:
Farm Innovators Premium Submergible Tank De-icer | Jeffers Pet


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

I've heard that horses can detect electrical activity that we can't. I guess if they aren't drinking it has to be be the heater. Do you know a guy with one of those electrical detector thingies where the needle moves in response to activity? Don't know what it's called.
To be safe you may want to return it & get another kind.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

Puts some buckets out for them. Most likely there is a short


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Yeah I took it out and they're drinking again. I'll just get my box fixed so I wont need the heater. This whole week is warmer though so I have time to fix it!

I contacted the company, said it could be a grounding issue.


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

evilamc said:


> Yeah I took it out and they're drinking again. I'll just get my box fixed so I wont need the heater. This whole week is warmer though so I have time to fix it!
> 
> I contacted the company, said it could be a grounding issue.


you should plug them in to a GFI receptacle so they will shut off power if there is a short


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Hmm my uncle whos an electrician is supposed to come out sometime to do some electrical work on my dog kennel..maybe I can have him take a look at the barn for me? I know nothing about electrical stuff  Barn has lights...and I have electric fence powered through it? Our house is older and a lot of electrical work had to be done in the house to update it so maybe the barn needs some updating too.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I had that happen. A boarder couldn't detect anything but her 11 yr old child did. She'd turned out the horses where there's a pond and they ran like crazy for it. In my case it was somehow caused by the electric fence touching another fence wire (non electric) barely touching the metal tank. Once the issue was resolved they were too suspicious of the tank. I had to get a plastic one and even then it had to be away from the other and it took a few handfuls of oats dropped in the dry tank to get them to approach it. Once they were ok with that I was able to fill it. The old metal tank was pulled well away and once it was gone they were ok when I repositioned the tank to be near the hydrant. I had unplugged the charger a month earlier. Guess who's child had plugged it in. I'd been away a couple of days and she was looking after things.


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## secuono (Jul 6, 2011)

It can be as faint as a light zing or tingling. I can feel shorts that are super weak, but DH cannot. 
Wetting the ground and standing barefooted, then touching the water you may feel it.


Can you tell/show us how you made the insulated box?
I'm in VA and rather not use heaters.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Oh man Saddlebag! I went out just now before bed and they still seemed weary of tank. Couple of treats seemed to take care of it though. I stayed out with them until they drank from it again.

Build a Solar Stock Tank - DIY - MOTHER EARTH NEWS

I used those plans to make mine  it works great when the kid isn't warped!! I actually ordered a siphon (ya I don't feel like sucking the hose myself), and once that's here I'm going to screw lid down. Then to clean once a weak I can siphon out water, add clean water and scrub, siphon out again then refill. I made my box a bit tight so it's a big chore in itself getting the tank in and out of box lol...so I said once it's in this year it's staying in till spring!!!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Yes the heater can go bad. 

When your uncle comes out, hook the heater back up and have him check it, so you can see the current level on the volt meter.

Also have him suggest an inexpensive volt meter (for you to buy) and have him show you how to work it, to test the water to see if there is a current in the water. You should be able to get one that works for your needs for around $10.

With my horses, it only took .5 (that is point five) of current for them to stop drinking.

That is not nearly enough for a human to feel. So when DH stuck his hand in the water and said "I don't feel anything", I told he would feel something if he didn't get a new heater and install it

Sure enough, new heater installed, horses started drinking again.

Don't let anyone tell you if they can't feel the current, there is nothing wrong because there IS and it has nothing to do with poor grounding. Although proper grounding is important.

The .5 my horses felt was nothing, it tells me their noses are very sensitive.

A GFI plug is the best answer, if your uncle can do that but, we have one and it didn't flip the breaker when our heater let that .5 current and it was shocking the horses.

I imagine there is a trip level it has to reach, in terms of fire hazard. 

Also, If you have pigs, they are even more sensitive. Pigs have been known to die from the same current on an electric fence that only shocks a horse to stay off the fence. That is why pigs have rings in their noses to keep them from rooting their way out of the pen.

Kudos for watching your horses that close and questioning. And yahoo that you have an electrician in the family to help you:loveshower:


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Well good news is it was in low 20's last night and my box kept water from freezing even with warped lid 

Lol prob won't work but I have a little volt meter for checking my electric fence? Think that would tell me? It's lowest reading is like 1000 though, it just has 5 lights and the light that is closest I guess to what it's reading lights up.

Because my tanks in a box I can't really use one of the plug type heaters, is there a heater you guys have had really good luck with? I usually use floater ones but wasn't sure how that would work with it having a lid on the tank? I really only want to have heater in there when it's like below 10 just to make sure it stays warm enough. I didn't really have much trouble last year but was also in VA. We just didn't have the option to use electric last year so worked with what we had! I have the option now so if it helps and will make the water better for them id like to do it.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

> volt meter for checking my electric fence? Think that would tell me? It's lowest reading is like 1000 though, it just has 5 lights and the light that is closest I guess to what it's reading lights up.


The 1000 number is ohms. Ohms measure resistance, not voltage in the sense you need to know.

It isn't going to tell you current. Do you have a dial on your meter that will let you switch to read volts?

Volts are what you want to be reading to see if there is current in the water.

1. If you have a ground strap in the water, take it out.

2. Put the red (positive) wire in the water.

3. Put the black (negative wire) on the ground pole or a clean spot on a tee post or metal fence. The tip on the negative wire has to have good clean contact to get a reading.

4. When all else fails holler "Uncle!" Literally


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

walkinthewalk said:


> The 1000 number is ohms. Ohms measure resistance, not voltage in the sense you need to know.
> 
> It isn't going to tell you current. Do you have a dial on your meter that will let you switch to read volts?
> 
> ...



Lol!! He is only 3 miles down the road! I could go pick him up in my new Viking  Thats a good excuse to drive it down the road right?

My meter does not have a way to switch it  I can prob pick one up though, I mean having a meter I'm sure can always come in handy?

One thing I noticed is when i did have it plugged in, the cord was touching the ground wire to my electric fence. The ground wire is insulated though so it SHOULDN'T pass current through it but maybe it passes the tiniest bit and then that travels through the heaters cord? I'm probably just grasping for reasons it happened lol! The techs going to call me tomorrow, maybe I just got a defective unit even, its brand new.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I have to wonder what the soles of your shoes were when you put your hand in the water?

Years ago I put up electric fence. Hit it with the back of my hand and got nothing. Checked everything. Touched it again. Nothing. A foster son was traipsing along with me. I'd been explaining that it wasn't working. He touched it and OUCH!

I had my chore boots on. He had cowboy boots on with a leather sole. Poor kid. We are still close. But he does his own checking on things now!


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Ohh interesting Boots! I had on my muck boots. Hmm but I have still been shocked by my electric fence with those on?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

evilamc said:


> Ohh interesting Boots! I had on my muck boots. Hmm but I have still been shocked by my electric fence with those on?


My kids were never shocked by an electric fence with their chore boots on. 

They used to do that as a country kid/city kid trick to town kids who would visit. I often helped the city kids with the pay backs.

I don't know. Grab a fence post next time you test it if you have those boots on. 

Whatever the cause and the difference. I'm interested in what you find out. We use several tank heaters and I do worry about one shorting out.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Mannnn your going to make me WILLINGLY grab my electric fence?! This doesn't sound fun.

I'm going by Tractor Supply shortly to pick up a few things, going to see if they have a volt reader thingy.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Only tap it with the back of your hand.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

So your muck boots much be magical. I got shocked even with leather work gloves on LOL. I was going through gate and dang handle came off, so I put my gloves on thinking that would help protect me..that plus my muck boots...NOPE.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Our 'muck' boots have rubber bottoms. I think "Muck" brand boots are plastic. 

So, you still have a mystery at the tank. 

Chore boots have been called muck boots for decades, as far as I know.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Yeah mine are actual muck boot company brand boots 

I got side tracked in TS earlier and didn't find a volt reader and of course company didnt call me today like they said they would!!!


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

evilamc said:


> Yeah mine are actual muck boot company brand boots
> 
> I got side tracked in TS earlier and didn't find a volt reader and of course company didnt call me today like they said they would!!!


I am getting sick-to-death of Tractor Supply's generally bad attitude. The Receiver at one of my local TSC's commented that it seemed to him, they are becoming more and more interested in catering to Suburbia and dogs. 

We have taken all our business our TSC except for Standlees hay products because I can't get them anywhere else.

Go to Lowes or Home Depot, you will get help and it will be more qualified.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Yeah I usually go to Rural King, I had to go to TS this time because I'm going to mix up my own bran mash mix and they're only ones that had flaxseed 

I may be going by Lowes today actually! I try not to shop at Home Depot because they don't support the military. A big cooperation like that should have NO issue giving military discounts.

I want to ask my uncle but last night his son and daughter in law lost their unborn baby at 6 months in  So I feel like its just not a good time right now to ask for help.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

> .
> 
> I want to ask my uncle but last night his son and daughter in law lost their unborn baby at 6 months in  So I feel like its just not a good time right now to ask for help.


I am so sorry. Hugs and deepest sympathies to everyone


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Aw, geez. That's awful. I'm so sorry to hear of their loss.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

my muck boots are not plastic. You should be able to purchase a fence tester online if nothing else, i get shocked easily . If the insulated tanks work, I would just use those.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Yeah I have a fence tester, but it's a little cheapy one that just has like 5 strengths fence could be and lights up the one the fence is at. So that won't work for testing the water 

Tank box did work great on VA but I'm worried winter in OH may be slightly colder so some nights it mah just need a little help from a heater


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

And thanks for your condolences! It's actually my husbands uncle, I've never met this cousin yet actually because he's military and in Texas now. It's sad though, she has to deliver the baby still  You don't lose babies often that far into the pregnancy, not sure what happened.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Invest in a good voltmeter! The ones with the dials to change what you're measuring!

This is a multimeter similar to what my father uses

http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Digi...TF8&qid=1449674598&sr=1-2&keywords=multimeter


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

so... Have you figured this out?


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Well its warmed up some so haven't revisited it much yet! Also its Christmas rush time at work. I got a volt meter thingy though so I have a game plan now. I'm going to put it in check volts...then put in a copper ground wire and run it to my ground rods and check again. My uncle is coming over a little after Christmas to do some electrical work in my dog kennel and I'm going to ask him to take a quick look at it then too


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

So now I have more to add to the puzzle.

I got some copper wire, ground wire, and ran it from my ground rods that I use for my electric fence into my tank. Before I even PLUGED IN AND PUT THE TANK HEATER IN THE TANK the water was electrified. So...something is wrong with my ground wire? Or ground rods? I use a staple gun and had stapled the ground wire to the box so horses couldn't play with...but I don't think that would affect it.

So I'm back to like negative square one now.


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## HombresArablegacy (Oct 12, 2013)

evilamc said:


> So now I have more to add to the puzzle.
> 
> I got some copper wire, ground wire, and ran it from my ground rods that I use for my electric fence into my tank. Before I even PLUGED IN AND PUT THE TANK HEATER IN THE TANK the water was electrified. So...something is wrong with my ground wire? Or ground rods? I use a staple gun and had stapled the ground wire to the box so horses couldn't play with...but I don't think that would affect it.
> 
> So I'm back to like negative square one now.


Well, Ummm of course the water was electrified..... you basically created an extension of your hot wire fence by tying into the ground posts. Don't do that!!! If you're trying to ground your tank heater, either talk to or hire an electrician on how to do it correctly. Where is the power source for your tank heater? That's where I would start, to figure out the problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

A length of copper pipe driven into the ground, even a foot, will act as a ground rod. I've even used a big screwdriver for one in a pinch.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Ha my electrician told me to try using the ground rods I already had! I can sink a new one in though tomorrow. We're going to test the outlet too though. My dads in town visiting and remodeling my dog kennel to turn it into a grooming shop, he knows how to do some electrical though so he's going to take a look tomorrow. My barn has newer electric so my uncle is surprised I'm having trouble. He hasn't had time to actually make it out to the barn though he rewired my whole kennel for me.


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## SeaBreezy (Jun 29, 2012)

When you run a ground wire from the tank to an existing ground rod on your hot wire fence, you're creating a new pathway for the electricity to flow from the fence to the tank itself, thus electrifying the water. As for the electrician telling you to connect it to your existing ground rod, most electricians, when they hear the words "ground rods", a hot wire fence is not the first thing that pops into mind. Most likely, the electrician was thinking of an actual ground rod in the ground - not the plastic rods for your electric fence.

So, my suggestion to you is to drive a new ground rod, specifically for the tank only, into the ground. And run your ground wire to that, instead of your electrified horse fence. Please wait for the electrician to hook it all up and check it for safety.

Voltage= Electromotive Force (think pressure) Volts measure the rate at which the current flows. It is not a measure of current

Amperage= measure of the amount of current/ how much power there actually is present. Less than 1 amp will potentially kill, even with a low voltage. Always remember this.

Ohms= electrical resistance 

*** If you are not an electrician, then please do not try to hook electrical things up yourself. Sure, this time you didn't kill yourself or your horse, but it could have been a lot worse. In some places, it is illegal to run wires and connect them to a power source unless you are a licensed and certified electrician. ***


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Well my dad did a lot of testing on all the circuits and what not and everything tested out good. He doesn't know much about electric fences so goign to have to find someone that does, I believe the problem is with my fence. My brother in law put my fences ground rods in and for some reason he didn't put them all the way in the ground...Don't worry they AREN'T in the horse area so horses can't stab themselves on them. Online it says I need at least 9 ft of ground rod for my fence, and I'm thinking there isn't 9 ft in. He put in 2 6ft rods but since both aren't all the way in I think thats my problem. Tomorrow I'm going to try and put them in the ground more and have my dad test things again. But everything is fine now, nothing shocking going on and we have a tester to use so we don't get shocked ourselves.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

My tank is also located pretty close to my ground rods. Wonder if that could affect it? Its in a wooden insulated box too. Maybe next time its empty I'll try moving my tank further away.


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## SeaBreezy (Jun 29, 2012)

Okay, I'm not sure how any of that relates to your water tank shocking the horses.

The tank being close to the ground rods wouldn't affect it. From my understanding, I thought you said that you ran your ground wire from your tank to the ground rods connected to your electric fence. That's the big no-no we're trying to get across.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Yes I did that after testing other things and thats already been undone, I undid that like instantly.

I read this and its what gave me the idea that my tanks too close?
"Electric Fencing
First of all, electric fencing is used to keep animals away from stuff. I would say in all instances that it would not be anyone's intention to keep your animals away from the water trough. The best solution for stray voltage from your electric fence is to move your water trough completely away from the electric fencing. If that is not possible, install a ground rod near the water trough in a place that is most often wet. You will need to attach a ground wire to the rod you pounded in the ground (soil) and attach the other end of the wire to the ground post on your electric fence energizer. this should take care of your "stray voltage" from the electrical fence."

With no ground rod connected to tank, if I plug in tank heater, it shocks in interval with my electric fence. I made the mistake using same ground rod last night but horses did not get shocked due to that mistake. I undid it right after I did it and tested it. Tonight I put a NEW ground rod in, ran NEW ground wire to tank from rod, and its still shocking if fence is plugged in. No shock if fence isn't plugged in. New ground rod was placed close to fences ground rods, so I moved ground rod. That DID help some but was still getting a reading. So now I'm thinking my fence isn't grounded well enough and maybe I need to move my tank further away so when I do add a ground rod its not too close to existing rods?

Tested all circuits/outlets in barn, all outlets have good ground so barns electric isn't issue. Has to be my fence, and only thing I can think of thats done wrong is the ground rods not in far enough. I installed fence following instructions PERFECTLY except for the ground rods. I trusted my brother in law to put them in right because he's set up multiple electric fences for their cows....Guess I was wrong. I have a pretty small fence, so not many splices, no steel touching anywhere, insulated ground wire buried under gates, seriously I was so careful to do everything right.

More testing tomorrow. Luckily horses aren't getting shocked in my testing so they're still drinking fine  Dad is installing a frost proof hydrant for me tomorrow so we'll do the ground rods too. If for some reason we can't figure it out...I'll insulate my tank better and not use the heater. 

Oh and I know the heater isn't the issue, if fence isn't plugged in and heater is, no shock.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Stray Voltage and Electric Fencing | PasturePro

Ohh good info, I'll test my ground rod how it says to tomorrow too.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Ugh so many projects going on at once right now!!! Had to go to hardware store 3x for my dad because he kept finding more issues with my kennels old plumbing. So wasn't able to mess with fence/ground rods at all today. Was about to but then it started snowing...I'm not trying to pound rods into frozen ground lol. Nothing is shocking where it shouldn't be at the moment though so its not like anythings getting hurt from me not doing it.

We did get this installed though 









And then I had to work on fixing my hay hut mold problem. Since I feed hay on gravel if hay touches gravel at all it molds!! I made a ghetto hay hammock with extra hay nets I had but that didn't cut it. Got a better net and put that up today, fingers crossed it doesn't sag under weight!









Put plastic crate under it to hopefully "catch" it if it does sag in the middle some.


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Fixed my problem. I moved my fence charger and ground rods AWAY from the barn. Hooked up solar charger so don't need to use barns electricity. I didn't realize it was bad to put in ground rods/charger next to existing electrical sources...And thats how my fence was installed. So I moved it, and all is well now. Barn cats and horses have heated water and barn cats even have a little heated cat box thing lol!


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

evilamc said:


> Fixed my problem. I moved my fence charger and ground rods AWAY from the barn. Hooked up solar charger so don't need to use barns electricity. I didn't realize it was bad to put in ground rods/charger next to existing electrical sources...And thats how my fence was installed. So I moved it, and all is well now. Barn cats and horses have heated water and barn cats even have a little heated cat box thing lol!


Yipee! I've shared your mystery with others. Do not ever feel bad about not guessing this right off. My friends have had heated (no pun intended) discussion about the right and wrong ways of all things tank heater.

I've learned a lot!


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## evilamc (Sep 22, 2011)

Hahaha well that makes me feel better then  Hopefully SOMEONE will learn from my mistake! I should of planned much better where my ground rods were going....and make sure I'm providing enough ground rod, in the ground, for my charger. Now if my electric fence WASN'T the culprit to the problem, I'd say using a ground rod would of fixed the shocking tank heater.

Went to Rural King and just bought a solar charger so I could put it wherever I wanted..so going to try and sell my other charger.


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