# Surprise Colt... What breed is he?



## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Hi all,

First post, if I've overlook some formality, kindly point me in the right direction and I'll set it straight.

---

So, back in January of 2012 I bought myself a Percheron mare to go trail riding with my wife and her spotted saddle.

March 29th, 2012 she foaled a colt... Nobody knew she was preggo and she was seen by 3 different vets.

We've exhausted all avenues to find out what the sire was. Nobody knows and the trader I got the mare from won't divulge the source of the mare. I suspect he's placating us and won't take the time to call the previous owner for information. But it is what it is....

When he was born, the vet said maybe Gypsy Vanner but IDK, not really a lot of feathering now and he's 8 months old and just shy of 16hh. My wife has an American Curly (Bashkir) stuck in her head and I think perhaps Clyde? The various string methods have him around 18.1+/- when grown.

Are there any tell tale signs that I can provide for the more knowledgeable people the community? Forgive the last few pictures of him, he sand colic'd last week so his weight is down a little.

Thank you in advance for your time.


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

Looks like a Paint X Percheron to me


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## rookie (May 14, 2012)

I think a lot of what you get is based on what is around you. If you live in an area with a lot of gypsy horses then its possible that he is vanner cross. If you live in the USA that gets less likely as Gypsy's tend to be pretty well organized and stud books controlled. If you are in the southwest it could be quarter horse or paint. Its all about where his momma came from and her history. A lot of drafts coming out of auction in the North East are coming out of Amish country. Which means that you would be looking at Amish riding horses as the momma. That means saddlebreds, and quarter horses. Its regional more then breed specific. He is cute though.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I was going to say that he looks like he might be a cross with a lighter horse. His legs don't say full draft to me, they just seem too light.

Beyond that, I have no idea what he might be. Perhaps a TB or Appendix considering how leggy he is.

He's a cutie either way.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Not a TB or QH. niether of those breeds carry tobiano. It has to either be paint or pinto of some sort. Doesn't have the heaviness for me to think gypsy/draft.


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## AnrewPL (Jun 3, 2012)

Wouldn’t even guess at the breeding, but he looks like he will be a giant once he is grown up.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

NdAppy, you're right. I didn't even consider the paint thing....but either way, we agree on it likely being a lighter horse and non-draft.


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## Breezy2011 (Nov 23, 2012)

I would say clyde and percheron, because there is no way that an average sized horse, would get that tall unless he was crossed with a draft breed.

I would say another draft breed.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yep. Definitely getting the vibe of light horse breeding.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Light horses also come in tall heights too, they just aren't as common. I mean, look at These Irons Are Hot. He's a QH and stands 17.2.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Breezy other horses than drafts can and do get that tall. Also the tobiano pattern is not present in Clydesdale.


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## TimberRidgeRanch (Mar 6, 2012)

well since I have spotted drafts in my field I would say  percheron/spotted draft/paint and yes if a draft is crossed with a lighter breed they can be big foals. I have a NSH/Belgian that is 17.3 and I have a percheron/Paint thats 18.2 ( My stud ) 
Looking at your colt all I can say is YUMMMMMM I so want him not often you get red and white spotted drafts see alot of the black and whites though lol. 

TRR


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

Even though feather is recessive, I'd expect to see more feather and heavier bone, if he was a draft cross. I think the mare was crossed with some type of tobiano light horse. Could have been a spotted Saddlebred, especially if she came from Amish country. This especially, looking at his head and ears.

Handsome colt. What are your plans for him?

Lizzie


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## Horsnaround64 (Dec 31, 2011)

He is beautiful


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

Perch X Paint is a common cross around here, so thats my guess.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Thank you for all of your replies. I'm sorry about the lack of geographical information. I filled it in in my profile after the post thinking that it would show up. Mama is from NW Georgia. 

Also, to add another twist that may or may not be relevant.

Back in May, some friends of ours put a calendar up on my stall that had a picture of a foal that looked EXACTLY like Ricky. This was that picture...










Well, I took the calendar home and started tracking down the photographer so that I could hopefully track down the owner and find out. The publisher got me the photographer information and I got in touch with the photographer. This picture is of a Vanner filly named Ella who was foaled in NW Georgia within 70 miles of the exact spot that we bought Ricky's mama. Long LONG story short, I tracked down Ella's sire's owner to see if there was any semen that was sent down that didn't take. The sires' owner checked her records and reported no missing semen or semen that reportedly didn't take. Further, she dismissed the notion that he could be vanner based on him not having enough feathers. Personally, I don't know... but at the time, the two were identical in every way that I could see. I don't believe he's vanner at this point because his feathering really hasn't kicked into overdrive like I would expect it to if he were vanner.


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

As in my previous post, I doubt the other half is a Gypsy. The majority of Gypsy owners do not agree with crossbreeding. Also, most Gypsies are about 14 hands and I think the sire of your colt, was probably finer boned and taller. If the sire was a Gypsy, I'd expect to see a much different head on your colt.

You might never find out who the sire was, so I wouldn't really worry about it. Most people with grade horses, never know who the dam or sire were. 

Lizzie


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Breezy2011 said:


> I would say clyde and percheron, because there is no way that an average sized horse, would get that tall unless he was crossed with a draft breed.
> 
> I would say another draft breed.


 
I think if he were draft horse on both sides, he'd have a more roman nose. I think he is paint x (which really means QH, since a paint horse is basically a QH with a certain coloration)


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

FeatheredFeet said:


> As in my previous post, I doubt the other half is a Gypsy. The majority of Gypsy owners do not agree with crossbreeding. Also, most Gypsies are about 14 hands and I think the sire of your colt, was probably finer boned and taller. If the sire was a Gypsy, I'd expect to see a much different head on your colt.
> 
> You might never find out who the sire was, so I wouldn't really worry about it. Most people with grade horses, never know who the dam or sire were.
> 
> Lizzie


I agree... we don't think he's Vanner, it was just VERY crazy how that unraveled at first. To answer your previous question, we're keeping him and mama together with us. I can't break them up lol


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

No matter what breeding he's got, you're just going to have to stick around long term so we can watch the beautiful guy grow up.

You lucked out, there are many draft cross horses out there (especially when the cross is not well thought out) that are rather....unfortunate looking. You're guy doesn't have that. Sure, he's going through some weanling fuglies right now with the gangly legs and big head, but when he fills out. . . Wowza!


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## FeatheredFeet (Jan 27, 2010)

So glad you are keeping him and hope he is already gelded, so he doesn't breed his dam.

Lizzie


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## lilruffian (Jun 28, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Not a TB or QH. niether of those breeds carry tobiano. It has to either be paint or pinto of some sort. Doesn't have the heaviness for me to think gypsy/draft.


 I'm sorry, this post just confuses me a bit
Paints are all of QH and TB breeding and carry Tobiano so how does it come about if QH and TB on their own cannot carry it?? Just a question.
The colt himself of course is a Pinto no matter due to his dam


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

lilruffian said:


> I'm sorry, this post just confuses me a bit
> Paints are all of QH and TB breeding and carry Tobiano so how does it come about if QH and TB on their own cannot carry it?? Just a question.
> The colt himself of course is a Pinto no matter due to his dam


Because Paints are not just "QH or TB with extra white", they are a separate breed. The presence of the tobiano gene proves that some other breeds are part of the Paint history. QHs and TBs definitely don't have it.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

FeatheredFeet said:


> So glad you are keeping him and hope he is already gelded, so he doesn't breed his dam.
> 
> Lizzie


It was a hard choice, but given our current financial capabilities and the fact that we want him to have a happy/fun life of running around with everybody else out in the pasture, we gelded him back in oct.

On a separate note, a few months ago we ran across these two on a facebook auction house page. Mare and baby just like ours. IIRC they both went to a good home.


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## Jake and Dai (Aug 15, 2008)

DraftGuy...I've not a clue what he is. All I know is, if he goes missing, he's not in NW NJ with me so no need to bother looking there. K?


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Thank you...

Here is a video I made of him and mama. He is long since weaned and we're now introducing him slowly to the main pasture with the rest of the adults. This was his first day out with them.


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## QOS (Dec 8, 2008)

He is adorable!!!!! He will make a fine trail horse one day. Cute as can be.


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## Left Hand Percherons (Feb 1, 2011)

Definitely paintXpercheron. Doesn't have enough bone to have more than 50% draft. The mare is very nice. Definitely full Percheron and most likely raised by a draft person (the docked tail). I would suggest finding some Percheron people in the state and see if they can be of any help. There are a few in NC but I don't think they have a state draft horse association. Ga does and there are a few good breeders. I would also check her for a microchip if possible as a lot of PMU foals made it down to the Ga area. ( If she's in the 7-9 year range especially) 

If you are at all interested in registering the foal, he can be registered in the Pinto Draft Registry as a 1/2 draft grade on his coloring alone. The Spotted Draft Association is not an option as they have a closed studbook at this time.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks guys...

I may look into registering him. I never really thought about it to be honest. Is there any benefit to registering other than a higher sale price? I never plan on selling him or the mare so higher sale price isn't a factor.


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## xeventer17 (Jan 26, 2009)

This question is a off topic, but what kind of blanket do you have on him? I've been looking for a lime green blanket for my guy for ages, lol!


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

xeventer17 said:


> This question is a off topic, but what kind of blanket do you have on him? I've been looking for a lime green blanket for my guy for ages, lol!


It's a 62" Tough One


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Breezy2011 said:


> I would say clyde and percheron, because there is no way that an average sized horse, would get that tall unless he was crossed with a draft breed.
> 
> I would say another draft breed.


A clyde/percheron cross wouldn't result in a pinto foal, as neither breed carries either tobiano or overo. The only draft cross that would result in a pinto goal would be spotted draft or gypsy. Gypsy is out, as he doesn't have any gypsy characteristics other than color. Spotted draft is a possibility, but unlikely because of lightness of bone.

It's quite possible for the foal to take more after the dam's height than the sire's. Look at my Aires. He's a percheron/paint cross. His percheron dam was 17hh. His paint sire was 15.1hh. He was taller than his sire when he was two-years-old and string tests say he'll mature between 16.3-17.2hh (depending on which test you do).

I'm gonna jump on the percheron/paint bandwagon, but toss out that his sire was possibly a paint with more thoroughbred breeding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> A clyde/percheron cross wouldn't result in a pinto foal, as neither breed carries either tobiano or overo. The only draft cross that would result in a pinto goal would be spotted draft or gypsy. Gypsy is out, as he doesn't have any gypsy characteristics other than color. Spotted draft is a possibility, but unlikely because of lightness of bone.
> 
> It's quite possible for the foal to take more after the dam's height than the sire's. Look at my Aires. He's a percheron/paint cross. His percheron dam was 17hh. His paint sire was 15.1hh. He was taller than his sire when he was two-years-old and string tests say he'll mature between 16.3-17.2hh (depending on which test you do).
> 
> ...


Just regarding the red part. Neither breed contain tobiano or FRAME. Overo refers to pretty much any white pattern that isn't tobiano. Both these breeds carry sabino, and possibly splash. Both of these genes could result in a pinto foal. However, not a tobiano like the OP's horse.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, I couldn't venture a guess, other than the papa was no little fellow.  Since mama is black (or she looks black in pics, maybe just bay), which is a recessive color, there is a high probability the pops was a pinto, too.

But, what a _neat_ surprise! How blessed you are! He is just beautiful.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Mom look Percheron or Perch cross . If she came out of Canada, the baby could be a Clyde X paint . Stud would need to be decent size to mount the mare. The horses from Canada are a big Mix of breeds with drafts. He is sure cute ! The sire could be a TB Warmblood Draft Paint mix.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

He sure is cute! Your percheron has the same snip as mine. However, her last filly looked quite different. I was told it was crossed with TB possibly, but who knows....here was her filly at 3 years old.


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## Lwhisperer (Sep 11, 2012)

stevenson said:


> Mom look Percheron or Perch cross . If she came out of Canada, the baby could be a Clyde X paint . Stud would need to be decent size to mount the mare. The horses from Canada are a big Mix of breeds with drafts. He is sure cute ! The sire could be a TB Warmblood Draft Paint mix.


My parents live very close to a breeding farm that regularly crosses pony studs to full sized Quarters and Paints for crossbred babies. They use many techniques to breed, and the sires are almost always quite a bit shorter than the mares. I'm not sure that would be an accurate argument for this guy having a taller father. 

Congratulations on the spotty boy, he's built beautifully! I'm sure you'll have lots of fun raising him.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Missy May said:


> Well, I couldn't venture a guess, other than the papa was no little fellow.  Since mama is black (or she looks black in pics, maybe just bay), which is a recessive color, there is a high probability the pops was a pinto, too.
> 
> But, what a _neat_ surprise! How blessed you are! He is just beautiful.


Black is not recessive, it is dominant.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Thanks all.... 

The trader I got the dam from said that there were some spotted drafts running among the herd. That's about as much info on the subject as he would give me after Ricky was foaled. That, and when I picked up the dam back in Jan, he mentioned that she was on a draft farm with at least 40 other drafts and that she hadn't been paid much attention to over the last couple of years because the owner is getting elderly now, etc...

*Oldhorselady:* how tall was your filly in that picture? do you remember how tall she was at the 8mo to 1 year mark? Ricky is like 15.3 1/2 hh right now at about 8 1/2 months. Both string tests have him at 18+ (I do understand that those aren't exact). I also have a neat little formula that I found on here and converted into a spreadsheet for tracking his 3 year height. It shows 18.1 to 18.3 @ 3 years. It also shows that he has grown from 14.3 to 15.3 in the last 3 months. Although, I do realize that it comes in spurts and will likely slow for some duration and then resume etc,. And of course that there's no way to know for sure how big he'll get until it happens.

I know that his halter is a standard sized horse and we're on his last hole already and he's not even a yearling yet. Of course, he burned though his yearling halter at 4 months.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

DraftGuy said:


> Thanks all....
> 
> *Oldhorselady:* how tall was your filly in that picture? do you remember how tall she was at the 8mo to 1 year mark? Ricky is like 15.3 1/2 hh right now at about 8 1/2 months. Both string tests have him at 18+ (I do understand that those aren't exact). I also have a neat little formula that I found on here and converted into a spreadsheet for tracking his 3 year height. It shows 18.1 to 18.3 @ 3 years. It also shows that he has grown from 14.3 to 15.3 in the last 3 months. Although, I do realize that it comes in spurts and will likely slow for some duration and then resume etc,. And of course that there's no way to know for sure how big he'll get until it happens.


We had her filly for only a short month or so. They were both a last minute rescue from being put down. Belle was in very bad shape and the filly was VERY wild. She had never been handled by a human and they lived together in a 50" paddock for three years, untouched, just having hay thrown over the fence. The filly went to a friend that has hundreds of acres of land where she has a great life, while I kept Belle.

Not sure if the string test thing works. I was trying to figure out how tall my draft cross was going to get since she is only 14.1 at 3 years old. Some say it works, some not. Either way, you will have a great time with your little, or should I say BIG guy! He is beautiful and I would take him no questions asked! Have a great time with him and keep posting pics!


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## csimkunas6 (Apr 18, 2010)

DraftGuy said:


> Hi all,
> 
> First post, if I've overlook some formality, kindly point me in the right direction and I'll set it straight.
> 
> ...


Not sure what breed he is, but I am in love!!!!! Ever want to sell him, let me know!!!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> Black is not recessive, it is dominant.


Black expressed over the entire body_ is_ recessive. But, whatever you would like to believe is of no consequence.

Although in looking harder at some of the picks, she looks to be bay, not black.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Missy May said:


> Although in looking harder at some of the picks, she looks to be bay, not black.


To my knowledge, she's black. She was washed out some from the summer sun. I'm told that it's not uncommon for blacks to "brown out" by the sun.

This first picture BTW was taken the day I bought her which was 2 months before she thew her foal. She didn't look pregnant at all to me! The second picture was on a camping trip we did early this past October.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

csimkunas6 said:


> Not sure what breed he is, but I am in love!!!!! Ever want to sell him, let me know!!!


Thank you!

But he isn't going ANYWHERE lol... being an orphan myself, and seeing how much these magnificent creatures can love, that was never on the table at all.

I'm told that their memory is second to only that of an elephant. That (to me) would indicate the ability and probability to morn the loss of things in life such as offspring. No freaking way would I do that to either one of them! 

Oh, and the day I weaned them backs that up LOL, mama was one ****Y draft girl, never seen her jump and kick out like a roundhouse ninja with all four feet off the ground before! whoa...


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Draftguy....I can see why you didn't know she was pregnant. She is just gorgeous!!! As is baby.

Judging from the stirrups, you are not short. Still...must be fun to swing on up!


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Missy May said:


> Black expressed over the entire body_ is_ recessive. But, whatever you would like to believe is of no consequence.
> 
> Although in looking harder at some of the picks, she looks to be bay, not black.


I don't know where you are getting your information Missy May but it is incorrect.

There are only TWO base coats in horses. Black and red with black being dominant over red. Bay and every other color are modifications of those two base colors. 

So no, black is _not_ recessive to anything.


Draft Guy - Your girl for sure is a gorgeous black.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Missy May said:


> Draftguy....I can see why you didn't know she was pregnant. She is just gorgeous!!! As is baby.
> 
> *Judging from the stirrups, you are not short. Still...must be fun to swing on up!*


Thanks.... 

The saddle gives it away too... It's an 18" seat. I'm 6'3 / 300lbs, mama is 17.1 almost 17.2

For some reason I ALWAYS seem to be the one who clears out the spider webs in the tree branches *shrug* :-o


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> Draft Guy - Your girl for sure is a gorgeous black.


Thank you!


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> I don't know where you are getting your information Missy May but it is incorrect.
> 
> *There are only TWO base coats in horses*. Black and red with black being dominant over red. Bay and every other color are modifications of those two base colors.
> 
> ...


Gee, ya think? Well, I would have never have guessed. If black (i.e,. black BASE alleles) are not in the presence of _recessive_ alleles, it can_not_ express over the ENTIRE body. Notice, the world is not full of black horses. If you call that (solid black, all over the body) "dominant", more power to you.


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

Don't know about breeding but both mother and son are good looking horses. You're either very lucky when it comes to picking them or have good taste in horses. Enjoy them!!


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Chevaux said:


> Don't know about breeding but both mother and son are good looking horses. You're either very lucky when it comes to picking them or have good taste in horses. Enjoy them!!


Thank you... I did lots of research on confirmation and breed traits before closing the deal on mom. Ricky was just luck! Not bad for a BOGO :lol:


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Missy May said:


> Gee, ya think? Well, I would have never have guessed. If black (i.e,. black BASE alleles) are not in the presence of _recessive_ alleles, it can_not_ express over the ENTIRE body. Notice, the world is not full of black horses. If you call that (solid black, all over the body) "dominant", more power to you.


What? Can I see a link from where you're getting your information? Because you're making it sound like a heterozygous black horse should be the color of black and red at the same time. Or are only parts of an Ee horse black?

For example, this is Lark, a mare owned by the user DrumRunner. She is heterozygous black. Last time I checked, she's still black..









My buckskin is Ee also and is still a buckskin..which is a black-based color.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

No Poseiden, you have a computer, you look it up. If you believe anything is controlled by a single gene, it really doesn't matter to me and I am not going to explain what you yourself can easily varify. The presence of either of what are known as "base color" alleles does not dictate the color of the entire coat, mane and tail, as a hint. Have a nice day.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Missy you are seriously confusing the fact that everything but black and red are modifications of those two base coast. As an example, black is not recessive to bay... Bay is a modification of the black base coat.


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Yep.. Pretty sure Lark is black, she doesn't change colors at all.. She has no red on her what-so-ever and she's only lighter in that picture because she's turned out 24/7.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

First of all, here: Red Factor - Horse Coat Color UC Davis's page on Extension. 
*"Red horses (chestnuts, sorrels, palominos and red duns, to name a few) are homozygous, that is they have two alleles, for the recessive red allele ee. Black pigmented horses (black, bay, brown, buckskin and grullo, to name a few) have at least one E allele. They can be homozygous EE or heterozygous Ee." *

Furthermore, if you want what a single gene can do by itself, I'll use my own horse as an example:









I know because of her appearance, pedigree, and testing that she is Ee A_ Crcr N/O. Heterozygous black because her sire is a palomino, which is homozygous red. I couldn't tell you on the agouti since red horses can carry it undetected, but as a buckskin, she has at least one copy. Also being a buckskin, she has one copy of cream, which is an incomplete dominant and would cause perlino if she had 2 copies. She's also N/O for frame because i tested her and she would have been dead over 9 years ago if she was O/O. And if I were to take away every single one of those genes except Extension, I would have a *black horse*.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I would also like to pop in and mention that the beautiful *black* Percheron mare there, is actually heterozygous for black...meaning Ee. So, she still exhibits the traditional black Percheron coloring, but has the capability of throwing a red-based foal...obviously LOL.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> First of all, here: Red Factor - Horse Coat Color UC Davis's page on Extension.
> *"Red horses (chestnuts, sorrels, palominos and red duns, to name a few) are homozygous, that is they have two alleles, for the recessive red allele ee. Black pigmented horses (black, bay, brown, buckskin and grullo, to name a few) have at least one E allele. They can be homozygous EE or heterozygous Ee." *
> 
> Furthermore, if you want what a single gene can do by itself, I'll use my own horse as an example:
> ...


The question at hand was a _solid black_ horse, _not_ a horse with black _points_. To date, genetic research has repeatedly confirmed that without the "a" (that is lower case, as in recessive), allele - you will _not_ get a solid black horse. Color is determined by interaction of several alleles, so if the limiting factor for a given color, such as black, is the presence of a _recessive_ gene AND black...I personally call it recessive. If you would like to call it dominant b/c the _base_ color is "dominant" and is a gene that _many_ non-solid black horses carry and express _at specific points_, then call it dominant - it makes _zero_ difference to me.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Missy, I really think you're confusing the use of "solid black" with the use of "homozygous black". A black horse is still a black horse regardless of whether they are EE or Ee. They still physically express as black. "Solid black" only applies where pinto markings are concerned. Since the mare has no pinto coloring, then she is a _solid_ black horse.


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## busysmurf (Feb 16, 2012)

And the above argument is the EXACT reason I think we should go back to the basic chestnut, black, bay, etc. It made it soooo much easier

I'M SAYING THIS AS A FUNNY!!!!! Ha-ha BIG SMILE

OP, what a cutie!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

smrobs said:


> Missy, I really think you're confusing the use of "solid black" with the use of "homozygous black". A black horse is still a black horse regardless of whether they are EE or Ee. They still physically express as black. "Solid black" only applies where pinto markings are concerned. Since the mare has no pinto coloring, then she is a _solid_ black horse.


I _absolutely_ agree...a black horse will be either EE or Ee, however, a black horse will _never _not be "aa" (agouti). For that reason it is a rare color (_relatively_ speaking). If there were no other factors at play, then I would expect to see a lot more black horses, wouldn't you?

And, I used the term "solid black" ^ in a response b/c I felt it necessary in light of statement to which I was responding to emphasize "all body" (i.e., solid) to ensure it was understood to the person I was responding to that I was talking about _total body distribution,_ not points, or base colors_. _I did not know it would be misinterpreted.

And, I apologize to the OP that this disagreement interupted or took away from the OP's beautiful black beauty and her lovely colt. I made the original comment tongue in cheek, and only meant to say what I said...the OP was blessed w a lovely suprise.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Missy May said:


> I _absolutely_ agree...a black horse will be either EE or Ee, however, a black horse will _never _not be "aa" (agouti). For that reason it is a rare color (_relatively_ speaking). If there were no other factors at play, then I would expect to see a lot more black horses, wouldn't you?


I suppose it depends on what breed you're looking at. In stock breed horses; QH, Paint, Appy, TB, etc, then a non-modified black horse isn't terribly common, but not exactly rare either.

BUT, we're talking Percherons here. The majority of that breed is either black or gray with the _extremely_ rare exception of the occasional chestnut or bay.

Either way, the mare is undoubtedly black, so I'm still unsure where all the debate came from.

ETA: Okay, reading back, I think I understand what you were getting at and your reasoning for considering black "recessive" but that doesn't qualify with pinto markings...or any modifiers really because they are completely different genes. The dun, the pinto genes, the roan genes, the cream genes, pretty much every other color gene out there acts separately from the base coat. Just because a horse may/may not have pinto patterns, that doesn't make the base coat dominant/recessive over the pinto patterns because they aren't acting on the same genes.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Missy May said:


> I _absolutely_ agree...a black horse will be either EE or Ee, however, a black horse will _never _not be "aa" (agouti). For that reason it is a rare color (_relatively_ speaking). If there were no other factors at play, then I would expect to see a lot more black horses, wouldn't you?
> 
> And, I used the term "solid black" ^ in a response b/c I felt it necessary in light of statement to which I was responding to emphasize "all body" (i.e., solid) to ensure it was understood to the person I was responding to that I was talking about _total body distribution,_ not points, or base colors_. _I did not know it would be misinterpreted.
> 
> And, I apologize to the OP that this disagreement interupted or took away from the OP's beautiful black beauty and her lovely colt. I made the original comment tongue in cheek, and only meant to say what I said...the OP was blessed w a lovely suprise.


The "other factors" such as agouti or cream don't take away from the fact that a Ee or EE horse is black based. That is what everyone is trying to tell you. You use the terms "recessive" and "dominant" in the wrong way, without knowing how they are applied to genes. It doesn't matter that agouti can change a black horse into a bay one - black is still dominant. Nothing can take that away. 

When we talk about a gene being dominant or recessive, we are specifically referring to its order of dominance on its particular locus. So black is always going to be dominant. Agouti, and other modifiers, are found at different loci to black, and so do not effect black's dominance in any way. They just change the EXPRESSION of the black.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

smrobs said:


> I suppose it depends on what breed you're looking at. In stock breed horses; QH, Paint, Appy, TB, etc, then a non-modified black horse isn't terribly common, but not exactly rare either.
> 
> BUT, we're talking Percherons here. The majority of that breed is either black or gray with the _extremely_ rare exception of the occasional chestnut or bay.
> 
> ...


My original statement was made tongue in cheek, the OP was wondering about the breed, I believe, not that color. I said I wouldn't venture a guess as to the sires bloodlines, but would guess there was a probability he was a pinto (color) since black is recessive (MEANING what I thought would be obviouse to the most casual observer...._full body black coat color_). It (the sire's coat color) was just a _guess_ based on the colt's coat, and I did not represent it as anything other than a guess. It was another way of saying it is exceedingly unlikely the sire is black, no matter the breed. It is also unlikely it (sire) is several other colors, but that is another story. And, again .... there is no argument from me about the genes aside from the base color genes that dictate other coat colors ... and all their possible combinations and permutations. In fact, my entire point concerning black (whole body black) was that there ARE other genes in play, such as 'aa'. 

Posters responded to my initial harmless post - which seem(ed) to hold the belief that the _color_ black (as in _full body_ black) was entirely dependent on the alleles on the base black _gene (singular)_. I wasn't looking to change anyone's mind or challenge their beliefs. I am not sure what their objectives were.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It's not that unlikely that the sire could be black too. As you know, a heterozygous black (like the dam of the colt) carries red. Heterozygous blacks (Ee) would make up around 50% of the horse population (in theory), so chances are actually quite high that he could have been Ee.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

The black gene is complete separate from the pinto/pattern causing genes. There is nothing for the black to be "recessive" to in regards to patterning genes as they are not on the same loci or part of the same allele.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> It's not that unlikely that the sire could be black too. As you know, a heterozygous black (like the dam of the colt) carries red. Heterozygous blacks (Ee) would make up around 50% of the horse population (in theory), so chances are actually quite high that he could have been Ee.


True, but it is not possible that the hypothetical black sire is not 'aa", in addition to Ee or EE, so the chances are very low that such a hypothetical black sire would have produced the result at hand (coat of OP's surprise).


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Missy May said:


> I wasn't looking to change anyone's mind or challenge their beliefs. I am not sure what their objectives were.


To change minds and challenge beliefs. That was my objective. My intentions are always to stop mis-education and help others form an opinion based on facts. By correcting your post (whether or not you knew what you meant is beside the point), not only am I assisting members of the forum to reach a correct conclusion, but also the countless others who may end up here after a google search. It is becoming impossible to search any topic related to horses without the Horse Forum being one of the first few hits...


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Why is that not possible? Its very possible that the stud could have been AA, Aa or aa, with any other combination of patterning and modifying genes...

For all we know the stud could have been Ee AA Crcr Tt Rr Dd or anything else... Making speculations that the sire was not anything but EE is kind of ridiculous. All we know for sure is the stud had one red gene and and one copy of tobiano...


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

NdAppy said:


> The black gene is complete separate from the pinto/pattern causing genes. There is nothing for the black to be "recessive" to in regards to patterning genes as they are not on the same loci or part of the same allele.


Just so that you don't confuse me as ever having entered an argument that even _remotely_ resembles what you are talking about, please re-read the post. THere never was any argument from me about the pinto color, its genetic markers, mapping, or current research. I only ever discussed the color black, as in full body coat color...a single color...nothing else. I am not sure how else to explain that - I don't think I was successful at explaining why the full body coat color black is not dependent on a single gene, so I don't know if you can this at all.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Missy May said:


> Just so that you don't confuse me as ever having entered an argument that even _remotely_ resembles what you are talking about, please re-read the post. THere never was any argument from me about the pinto color, its genetic markers, mapping, or current research. I only ever discussed the color black, as in full body coat color...a single color...nothing else. I am not sure how else to explain that - I don't think I was successful at explaining why the full body coat color black is not dependent on a single gene, so I don't know if you can this at all.


No one is saying that black is not dependent on the other modifying genes. Just that they don't change the fact black is dominant.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> The "other factors" such as agouti or cream don't take away from the fact that a Ee or EE horse is black based. That is what everyone is trying to tell you. You use the terms "recessive" and "dominant" in the wrong way, without knowing how they are applied to genes. It doesn't matter that agouti can change a black horse into a bay one - black is still dominant. Nothing can take that away.
> 
> When we talk about a gene being dominant or recessive, we are specifically referring to its order of dominance on its particular locus. So black is always going to be dominant. Agouti, and other modifiers, are found at different loci to black, and so do not effect black's dominance in any way. They just change the EXPRESSION of the black.


I understand recessive and dominant just fine, thank you. I was specifically talking about the _coat color of black _which does not occur unless you have aa which YES allows black to express. However, WITHOUT it you _do not have_ black full body (I keep repeating that so there is no confusion). IF we limit the discussion to a single gene, then I absolutely agree w you, there can be no "other" genes discussed b/c it is closed to ONE gene. There is a vast difference between talking about individual genes, there recessive/dominant charactereistics vs an actual physical attribute that is the result of the interplay of multiple genes. Again, I was talking about the full body coat color - black, not the black gene.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> No one is saying that black is not dependent on the other modifying genes. Just that they don't change the fact black is dominant.


Like I said earlier, there is no other way to interpret the post _other_ than what they state in black and white, above...all the way through. To see that I never argued that the base black gene was recessive would require one start from the _beginning_. Can you show me where I argued black (base) gene was recessive?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

So basically what you're just trying to say is that blacks can't carry agouti or they wouldn't be black? That's the gist I'm getting and we're all aware of that..


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Missy May said:


> Well, I couldn't venture a guess, other than the papa was no little fellow.  Since mama is black (or she looks black in pics, maybe just bay), which is a recessive color, there is a high probability the pops was a pinto, too.





> To see that I never argued that the base black gene was recessive would require one start from the beginning. Can you show me where I argued black (base) gene was recessive?



I don't feel that I was wrong to assume what I did from your first post - that you were saying black was recessive. How else were we supposed to interpret that?


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Poseiden, perhaps it was a failure to communicate. But, if you were aware, what was your point below.



Missy May said:


> Gee, ya think? Well, I would have never have guessed. If black (i.e,. black BASE alleles) are not in the presence of _recessive_ alleles, it can_not_ express over the ENTIRE body. Notice, the world is not full of black horses. If you call that (solid black, all over the body) "dominant", more power to you.





Poseidon said:


> What? Can I see a link from where you're getting your information? Because you're making it sound like a heterozygous black horse should be the color of black and red at the same time. Or are only parts of an Ee horse black?
> 
> For example, this is Lark, a mare owned by the user DrumRunner. She is heterozygous black. Last time I checked, she's still black..
> 
> ...


Chiilaa 



Chiilaa said:


> I don't feel that I was wrong to assume what I did from your first post - that you were saying black was recessive. How else were we supposed to interpret that?


Lets see, I was specifically talking about the _coat color _black (mare's coat) which perhpas was not as obviouse as I would have thought (especially since I expressed I wasn't sure if her coat is dark bay or black). I was not talking about the "base" black gene. The two are far from synonymous.

IF I had known people believed the black coat color and the black base gene are synonymous, I would have spelled it out in great detail, however, I was only admiring the OP's good fortune and mare and assumed people did not think the two (black coat color and the black base gene) are synonymous.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Missy May said:


> Lets see, I was specifically talking about the _coat color _black (mare's coat) which was perhpas was not as obviouse as I would have thought (especially since I expressed I wasn't sure if her coat is dark bay or black). I was not talking about the "base" black gene. The two are far from synonymous.
> 
> IF I had known people believed the black coat color and the black base gene were synonymous, I would have spelled it out in great detail, however, I was only admiring the OP's good fortune and mare.


They ARE synonymous. A black horse has to have a black gene. The black gene is a dominant allele. The other genes that can modify the black base coat are just that - modifiers. They don't change the dominance of the black, they change the expression of it. The black is still there, and still dominant over the red allele. If agouti could change the dominance of black, then heterozygous Ee horses that have agouti would be chestnut instead of bay. THAT is what I have been saying.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

So ladies......... if I may interrupt... 

My mare is black and the colt is tobiano? or pinto? or are they the same?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

DraftGuy said:


> So ladies......... if I may interrupt...
> 
> My mare is black and the colt is tobiano? or pinto? or are they the same?



Your beautiful mare is definitely black  The colt is chestnut with tobiano and sabino, and possibly splash too. Pinto is another word you could use to describe him, yes


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

DraftGuy, pinto is a word used to describe a horse with a white pattern that is not a Paint, which is its own breed.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Chiilaa said:


> They ARE synonymous. A black horse has to have a black gene. The black gene is a dominant allele. The other genes that can modify the black base coat are just that - modifiers. They don't change the dominance of the black, they change the expression of it. The black is still there, and still dominant over the red allele. If agouti could change the dominance of black, then heterozygous Ee horses that have agouti would be chestnut instead of bay. THAT is what I have been saying.


I do not agree they are synonymous for all the above reasons. It is an absolute fact that w/o the black gene you will not have a black horse, I agree and have not argued otherwise. I don't know why you feel you would have to "tell me" anything. Let me put it this way, full body black coat color is the result black base gene (very common) in combo with what amounts to a _recessive_ gene, aa (not very common). Yes, it allows black to go full body - no kidding. W/o it, black will NOT go full body, HENCE, full body black coat (EVEN thought base black is dominant) _cannot_ exist w/o aa. THAT is what I have been trying to say. Many of the responses do not appear as if they agree, and I do not think you can vouch for what they meant. Why argue the dominance of a "base gene"? I have already stated that perhaps I wasn't clear. I am not sure what it is you want.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

You are missing the point and looking at this backwards. Agouti is a _dominant gene_ that restricts black to points. Of _course_ a solid black horse can't have it to stay solid black. A black horse that is aa is not carrying recessive genes, it just _doesn't have that gene_.

It'd be the exact same as saying that DraftGuy's mare is only black because of the recessive gg for gray. No, it is not recessive, she just doesn't carry the gray gene.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> You are missing the point and looking at this backwards. Agouti is a _dominant gene_ that restricts black to points. Of _course_ a solid black horse can't have it to stay solid black. A black horse that is aa is not carrying recessive genes, it just _doesn't have that gene_.
> 
> It'd be the exact same as saying that DraftGuy's mare is only black because of the recessive gg for gray. No, it is not recessive, she just doesn't carry the gray gene.


Maybe you are no familiar with the term "what amounts to". I am sure there is a good explanation on the net. And, it is universally accepted that lower case signifies recessive...i am sure that is on the net, too.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> DraftGuy, pinto is a word used to describe a horse with a white pattern that is not a Paint, which is its own breed.


So then "pinto" should not be used to describe a paint and vice versa?

So.... if Ricky is "chestnut with tobiano and sabino, and possibly splash too" then he is not a Percheron/Paint cross but a Percheron/Pinto or a Pinto Percheron? *scratches head*


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

MissyMay said:


> Maybe you are no familiar with the term "what amounts to". I am sure there is a good explanation on the net. And, it is universally accepted that lower case signifies recessive...i am sure that is on the net, too.


I'm just saying it is far easier for everyone to understand what you're meaning by saying "a black horse is either Ee or EE and does not carry agouti" rather than getting into dominant and recessive because it makes it sound more complicated than it is.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

DraftGuy said:


> So then "pinto" should not be used to describe a paint and vice versa?
> 
> So.... if Ricky is "chestnut with tobiano and sabino, and possibly splash too" then he is not a Percheron/Paint cross but a Percheron/Pinto or a Pinto Percheron? *scratches head*


A pinto would be any horse with color. You can describe a Paint as a pinto if it has color, but some Paints are solid. Think of it this way: Not all pintos are Paints and not all Paints are pintos. I own a Paint that is not a pinto, and you own a pinto that is not a Paint because you do not know what his sire is. If his sire was an American Paint Horse, then yes, you could call him a Percheron/Paint. He himself would still be a pinto because he is not registered as a Paint. 

But, as you didn't know his sire, he would be a pinto.

Sorry, that is probably rather confusing. I tried to make it make as much sense as possible.

Paint = APHA horse or horse with known APHA breeding. Can be solid, as they are a breed.
Pinto = any other breed of horse that is not associated with the American Paint Horse.


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

DraftGuy said:


> So then "pinto" should not be used to describe a paint and vice versa?
> 
> So.... if Ricky is "chestnut with tobiano and sabino, and possibly splash too" then he is not a Percheron/Paint cross but a Percheron/Pinto or a Pinto Percheron? *scratches head*


There are color experts on here somewhere, but a paint is registred as such (usually either a QH or TB) but a paint could be a pinto (color) or may just have white above the hocks, not a pinto. Pinto describes a color just like bay.

His color maybe pinto, his breed is percheron (or Perch X) I am gun shy to say anything on this thread.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Got it! So because "pinto" encompasses a description of a set of colorings like tobiano, sabino, paint, splash, etc... He is "pinto" in color. Whereas because "Paints" are an actual breed, he cannot be a paint unless his lineage supports a sire who was a paint, regardless of whether the sire (hypothetical paint sire) was pinto or solid.

Sound right?

So what would I call him? Just a percheron cross?


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## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Without knowing the sire, Percheron cross would be the safe answer, yes.


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

Got it... So we'll say he's a Percheron Cross who happens to be Pinto... 

Now is that the same thing as a Percheron X ? I assume that the "X" is just a short way of saying "cross" right?


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

DraftGuy said:


> Got it! So because "pinto" encompasses a description of a set of colorings like tobiano, sabino, paint, splash, etc... He is "pinto" in color. Whereas because "Paints" are an actual breed, he cannot be a paint unless his lineage supports a sire who was a paint, regardless of whether the sire (hypothetical paint sire) was pinto or solid.
> 
> Sound right?
> 
> So what would I call him? Just a percheron cross?


Yep! And that's what I'd call him. 

And MissyMay, Paints are their own breed. They do have a lot of interbreeding with QHs and TBs, but tobiano doesn't exist in either of those breeds, so they are their own distinguished breed.


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

DraftGuy said:


> So what would I call him? Just a percheron cross?


For $80 (until December 31st) you can buy the colt Pinto papers from the PtHA. These would be beneficial for his life by providing a history, proof of ownership, and show opportunities. I'd say it is worth the money and would give him some added value over a grade horse of similar level.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

DraftGuy said:


> Got it! So because "pinto" encompasses a description of a set of colorings like tobiano, sabino, paint, splash, etc... He is "pinto" in color. Whereas because "Paints" are an actual breed, he cannot be a paint unless his lineage supports a sire who was a paint, regardless of whether the sire (hypothetical paint sire) was pinto or solid.
> 
> Sound right?
> 
> So what would I call him? Just a percheron cross?


Yes, sounds right. But I would always call him a percheron x, and add pinto if I wanted to be more descriptive. Idk, I have a haffie, I call her the little hoodlum and everyone seems to know who I am talking about.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

CCH, can he get PtHA papers if he has no knowledge of the sire? Or would he just get some kind of hardship papers as a gelding?


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> Yep! And that's what I'd call him.
> 
> And MissyMay, Paints are their own breed. They do have a lot of interbreeding with QHs and TBs, but tobiano doesn't exist in either of those breeds, so they are their own distinguished breed.


I won't argue, never owned one. I was just going by those I have known that had white throw back on QH colts, they _said _(now, I didn't follow them, take pics, notes, and have it certified) they could register them as paints, b/c the AQHA didn't allow it (this might have changed).


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## DraftGuy (Dec 10, 2012)

CCH said:


> For $80 (until December 31st) you can buy the colt Pinto papers from the PtHA. These would be beneficial for his life by providing a history, proof of ownership, and show opportunities. I'd say it is worth the money and would give him some added value over a grade horse of similar level.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would you be able to point me in the right direction? I might do this just for the heck of it. I was just looking at the PtHA FAQ section on pinto.org, but that didn't really go into detail about the fee's and deadlines and said nothing at all about parent lineage or anything.


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

By my reading of the rules, I would say yes, he would qualify for undocumented papers under the utility category because he has enough white.

And I am mistaken on the cost  it would be $165 ($125 for undocumented and $40 for membership) no need to worry about December 31 age cutoff for undocumented horses.

http://www.pinto.org/information/12_registration.pdf
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Missy May (Feb 18, 2012)

Poseidon said:


> I'm just saying it is far easier for everyone to understand what you're meaning by saying "a black horse is either Ee or EE and does not carry agouti" rather than getting into dominant genes because it makes it sound more complicated than it is.


Perhaps it would have been. But, I have already stated in clear english the main point to my initial post was to admire the OP's surprise and mare - and I assumed most people would understand what I meant. I did not "get into' dominance/rec E / a in that post, I replied to someone that did. You appear to feel it necessary to direct how I state things, as well as misrepresent what I have said. It's curious, at best.


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

DraftGuy said:


> Would you be able to point me in the right direction? I might do this just for the heck of it. I was just looking at the PtHA FAQ section on pinto.org, but that didn't really go into detail about the fee's and deadlines and said nothing at all about parent lineage or anything.


It's really easy. Fill out the membership and registration forms, use a credit/debit card, and take 4 digital photos, then you can send all the palerwork and photos by email to [email protected] using the requested name as the subject line. They will send the papers in about a month.

Since he is a gelding they should accept him under undocumented utility/drum. I would not volunteer that his dam might be Percheron (for all you know it could be an embryo transfer since you didn't witness the breeding and she may not even be100% Percheron)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

My gelding is a percheron/paint cross (I know his lineage and his sire is APHA registered) and I was told he could not be registered with the PtHA because he is half draft. I was led to believe he could only be registered with the American Warmblood Society.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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