# Q about riding position in Australian saddle



## TWHladyinLV (Apr 13, 2012)

Most all Aussi saddles have the stirrups placed forward. I ride in them all the time. I do however replace the thick stirrup leathers with either nylon or a high quality flexible English ones. It seems to facilitate getting your alignment straighter and makes it easier to post. I too am tall and my weight is 220. When you are that tall AND heavy your center of balance is higher and it's easier to get off kilter if your horse spooks. I also use a nice dressage saddle for trail riding and of course that fixes the alignment issue.


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## Greiswig (Nov 27, 2015)

Thank you for the reply, TWHLadyinLV. Do you find it helpful to have the leathers a little shorter than you might expect? It seems like maybe it helps to keep my feet under my center a bit better, but I don't know. The Outback saddle site mentions being able to see your toes just past your knees when you are sitting straight, and putting the stirrups up short tucks them back further than that.

Part of my issue is that I'm such a beginner, and I don't know how much to emphasize "proper" versus what feels practical. I don't want to start out with bad habits or techniques.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Dressage values heels under hip because it also values a highly collected gait, which is largely an up/down motion and not moving fast over the ground. It also places the heel where the horse is sensitive to heel cues.

But it is not critical for good riding. For good riding in a general purpose sense, your feet should be able to slide forward or back depending on what you are doing. I pulled this picture of campdrafting off the Internet some years back:








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Notice the heel position in the picture below on the right - a 2-time Gold Medalist in dressage at the Olympics:








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The chief instructor at the US Cavalry's school of riding between the world wars taught a forward seat:








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His approach works well in an Australian-style saddle - although I preferred a longer leg for my riding in an Australian saddle:








​ 
Good luck. An excellent book on riding is VS Littauer's Common Sense Horsemanship.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

you legs swinging out in front of you can be because of the balance of the saddle itself, i.e. where the stirrup bars are placed on the tree. AND, it can be influenced by how the saddle fits the horse. if, for example, the saddle is too narrow in front, the pommel will be raised up to high. you will then always have to lean forward a bit, as if you were "climbing a hill", and if you angle your uppper body forward, you must also bring your lower leg forward , too, in order to counter act that. the opposite occurse when the pommel is too low on a horse. (feels like riding downhill, upper body leans back , lower legs go back, too)

the case if the pommel too high will also make it harder to post and make you always be behind the motion somewhat. 
so, look at the fit of the saddle to the horse.

and, the twist can affect your ability to get your leg b ack under you, too.

if the twist is too wide for YOUR body shape/size, it will make your knees point too much outward, and make it hard for you get your inner thigh down along the saddle. it can feel very comfy at the walk but make posting very hard. I had a saddle like this. so, so comfy to sit in, but I simply could not get up and over my feet and was constantly behind the motion, and leaning forward in an attempt to get back in sync with the horse. good saddle, but not for me. i need a saddel with a NARROW twist. I am shortish, and pretty fat, (female)

any chance you'd like to post photos of said saddle on said horse, on flat ground squared up? and you in said saddle, or even a video?


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## Greiswig (Nov 27, 2015)

These are all really helpful. I will have take a close look at some of these issues next time I go to the barn. Thank you all very much!


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## TWHladyinLV (Apr 13, 2012)

It also depends on the breed you are riding. Back in the day when the Aussie saddle was developed, Australians were riding a lot of Gaited breeds-covering more ground faster without having to post. Today the Gaited horse saddles also have the stirrups set forward and the bars of the saddle flare out more to avoid hitting the shoulder. I have ridden Aussie saddles on Gaited and Bon-Gaited breeds and I do find posting more difficult when your feet aren't under you.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FWIW - maybe not much - this picture dates to the 1800s:










At the time, this was the western approach:










Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

I agree with tinyliny that the saddle probably doesn't fit the horse---it's not balanced. I've been in that situation, and it can be horrible!

I would avoid the old-style seat, with legs in front, which I'm sure your daughter would disapprove too. It's okay, usually, if the horse is naturally stretched, and low in front. If your horse has a tendency to raise his head, sitting back can make a hollow back sore, causing behavioral problems as well. I've also had that experience.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

TWHladyinLV said:


> It also depends on the breed you are riding. Back in the day when the Aussie saddle was developed, Australians were riding a lot of Gaited breeds-covering more ground faster without having to post.


Don't know where you got that one from, but I suspect most Australians hadn't even _heard_ of 'gaited breeds' aside from maybe pacers(did they pace back then??), and they were more often of some TB derivative.


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## Greiswig (Nov 27, 2015)

Well, I rode again yesterday. He is a 15-yo Thorobred, so he is a bit high in the withers and maybe starting to droop in his back a bit. So I tried something to see if I could compensate a bit: shortened the stirrups. 

I think my leg angle was a little too much for "proper," but it immediately felt better to me. And the horse seemed to like it better, too. I think I had been putting not enough weight on the stirrups, so maybe he was feeling it in his back too much. Putting weight in the stirrups made everything more stable, and made him want to get up and go! And, as someone mentioned earlier, the faster he went the more it felt natural to lean forward a bit. I stopped fighting that inclination and went with it, and it felt really good. 

Hopefully getting more of my weight on his shoulders helped him, too. 

I need to find someone around Portland, OR who really knows how to ride in a saddle like this before I get into some bad habits, but I really appreciate all the input here. Many thanks!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Greiswig said:


> Hopefully getting more of my weight on his shoulders helped him, too.


THAT is one thing you DON'T want! His shoulders should be free of any pressure from the saddle at all. The gullet bar/fork should be wide enough and far enough back(generally you can feel the back edge of the scapula & measure 3 fingers back from there) so the shoulders are completely free.

That is one thing about many, many stocks, is that they're ultimately designed for rider security with rough riding. Therefore they are often too narrow for the horse and also have longer bars than english - cos then "never horse could throw him while the saddle girths would stand" ...to quote a bloke who wrote a few good poems.


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## Greiswig (Nov 27, 2015)

loosie said:


> THAT is one thing you DON'T want! His shoulders should be free of any pressure from the saddle at all. The gullet bar/fork should be wide enough and far enough back(generally you can feel the back edge of the scapula & measure 3 fingers back from there) so the shoulders are completely free.
> 
> That is one thing about many, many stocks, is that they're ultimately designed for rider security with rough riding. Therefore they are often too narrow for the horse and also have longer bars than english - cos then "never horse could throw him while the saddle girths would stand" ...to quote a bloke who wrote a few good poems.


I probably misspoke about it being his shoulders...I merely meant more balanced weight front to back on the saddle because I wasn't seated as hard. But I will check fit against his shoulder blades next time I ride. Thanks!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The Downunder saddles, including the Kimberly line, are adjustable. I did once have a CS rep at Downunder email me that their saddles are supposed to go on the shoulder. I emailed back a scathing reply, because Australian saddles, like English saddles, need to be a few fingers back. Interfere with the shoulders, and you can get a horse to buck. I'd rather not say how I know that...but I know. 

Even in a western saddle, I prefer a forward seat for anything but a strolling pace. Ignore how Bandit is moving - some of his trouble was caused by his feet when this picture was taken last July, and he is doing better now:








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I'm a backyard rider of backyard horses, but I feel far more in synch with my horse this way. It could be a lower back injury has left my back too stiff to move well with the horse in a more western/dressage position.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

talk to *Wallaby.* she can help you with some "eye on the ground" feedback on your position. she's nice and knows her stuff. she lives just outside Portland.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Another good person here in Portland is Verona! She always has lots of good info.
Welcome to the forum. Hope you aren't Iced-over this morning.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

At a recent forum a rider with "forward leg problems" was advised to put a towel under the back of the saddle. She tried it, and just those few inches really helped get her legs under. She was an advanced rider, but hadn't noticed her expensive saddle wasn't sitting on the back quite right.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

bsms said:


> ​


Looks like a good forward trotting position to me! (I wasn't seeing pictures in Explorer, but I'm using Mozilla Firefox now.)


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## AbbeyX (Dec 1, 2015)

We ride in Aussie saddles all the time and most models of those Kimberly Outbacks really do set your legs too far forward, I'm not really a fan. Just google image search them, you will see right away. I would try the suggestion of replacing the stock leathers with some kind of flexible synthetic english leather, they will fall straighter underneath you than the thicker leather. Of course then they will move around more easily too.


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## AbbeyX (Dec 1, 2015)

The fact that this is the first picture that comes up should tell you everything you need to know.


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

^^ The picture Abbey has posted looks ridiculous to me. Is that really how American "Australian saddles" look?!

Definitely get some thinner leathers. I've been riding in stock saddles (the Aussie term for Australian saddles) ever since I first sat on a horse and leathers that thick aren't common. It's either leathers similar to english, or fenders.

Whilst, in my experience, stock saddles 'encourage' a chair seat, there is no reason why you can't ride in a classic dressage seat. You just have to resist the urge to sink back an go along for the ride.

That being said, I ride in a slight chair seat whether I'm in my stock saddle or my endurance saddle, because it's what works for me. Unless you're riding in shows, I see no reason why you need to worry so much about riding the same way your daughter does.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am sure we in USA have not the best selection of Aussie saddles commonly available. i've not yet seen one Aussie saddle that fit well to the horse or the rider.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

AbbeyX said:


> We ride in Aussie saddles all the time and most models of those Kimberly Outbacks really do set your legs too far forward...





tinyliny said:


> ...i've not yet seen one Aussie saddle that fit well to the horse or the rider.


I honestly have never had a problem with putting my leg where I wanted it in an Australian saddle - and I logged plenty of time in them. The pictures Downunder posts on their website are very unrealistic. Here are a couple of DU saddles on real horses. DownUnder makes the Kimberly line.

About 5 years ago, maybe 6, on Trooper. I had substituted western stirrups on to the Australian leathers:










On Mia:










A friend who rides 3-4 times a decade, riding on Cowboy:










Where the stirrups hang naturally on Mia, using English leathers but gravity is gravity and stirrups naturally hang down straight from the stirrup bars:










The "classical seat" is meant for dressage. For spooky horses in the desert, I prefer my feet a little forward. The old style western and Australian position valued security over being classical. In fact, it seems classical dressage did, before competitions:










_École de Cavalerie_ by Francois Robichon de la Guérinière *1729










*_La Science et l'art de l'equitation, demontres d'apres la nature_ (1776)


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Greiswig said:


> Here is the problem: my daughter wants me to sit up straighter in the saddle, not lean forward. As soon as I do that, if I try to put weight on the stirrups, they try to scoot forward out from under me because my center of gravity is behind them. And it is hard for me to believe that anyone would design a saddle so that you basically had to be doing a static leg curl the whole time you are riding, so I wonder whether the straight vertical posture is actually what this is designed for? Or is there some other issue?


Not sure about all Australian saddles, but the Kimberley and Down Under saddles are designed to put your leg out in front of you as you described. Take a look at how the rider sits in this video from their page on saddle fit:





I'm with your daughter on this one- that position makes me cringe. It looks to me like it encourages bracing against the stirrups and would make posting to the trot very difficult.

I liked the idea of an Australian saddle back when I was considering my options for a trail riding saddle, but I primarily ride dressage and am very used to the 'traditional' ear-hip-heel alignment and after seeing that video I knew it was not for me.

I suspect your daughter is correct that you should not be leaning forward, and you are correct in that the saddle is not designed for you to have your feet underneath you. While you can to some degree re-position yourself in any saddle, it's not fun to fight against the saddle constantly. If you find the Australian saddle comfortable in the way that it seats you naturally then I'd say it's OK to disregard ear-hip-heel alignment.

I don't know anyone in the area that has any specialized knowledge of Australian saddles & that style of riding, but I do know a few very good instructors on the west side of Portland (North Plains and Banks) who work very well with adult pleasure riders and are open minded to differing riding styles. I also ride with some adults in an informal, friendly, and inclusive rider's "club" fairly regularly and you'd be welcome to join us  PM me if you'd be interested in more info on either of those!


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Dustbunny said:


> Another good person here in Portland is Verona! She always has lots of good info.
> Welcome to the forum. Hope you aren't Iced-over this morning.


:redface: Oh, quit it, you're making me blush :lol:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

verona1016 said:


> Not sure about all Australian saddles, but the Kimberley and Down Under saddles are designed to put your leg out in front of you as you described....


That simply is not accurate. To get in the position shown in their video, you MUST brace your legs forward. But that is the RIDER forcing it, not the saddle. The saddle creates the position shown in the photos I posted above - based on my using two of their saddles over a period of years.

It must. The distance between the deepest part of the seat and the stirrup bars is the same in my DownUnder Campdraft as it was in my Bates Caprilli AP saddle.

I have lots of hours in Australian saddles, and they do not force the leg very forward. The neutral leg position in those saddles is with the back of the heel no further forward than the belt buckle, and maybe not even that far. This is what happens when you do not brace the leg forward:










In an Australian saddle, it is common to lean forward and use a forward seat. Check out videos of campdrafting.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

While not an ideal "dressage" leg position, I would hardly say that my Aussie "forced" my leg into the ridiculously forward and braced position shown in that video.



Never had a problem posting in it.

This is my best friend in the same saddle on the same horse, two years later. Still not forcing her leg forward. If anything, she didn't like how far under her it put her leg (she's used to riding in roping saddles which really do encourage a chair seat at times). 



I find this comparison interesting (bsms gave me the idea with his comparison of his Aussie saddle versus his Bates Caprelli). This is my old (40+yo) Stubben Siegfried:

This is a cheap Asian-made Aussie that was for sale at my local tack store that I was considering:


I find it interesting that the stirrups/leathers are hanging in very similar positions with a very similar distance between the deepest part of the seat and the stirrup bar, as bsms noted with his saddles.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Here is an old photo I dug out...this is the neutral position. If you imagine the ball of the foot in the stirrup, then the back of the heel will be close to the rear of the flap:








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If the rider lets gravity do its thing, then it will put the heel pretty much under the hip. I like riding in the "home" position, which then puts my heel a little further forward. I normally rode with English stirrup straps, but the Australian ones are only 1.25" wide where they go on the stirrup bar, vs 1" for my English ones. Either way, they will hang straight down unless someone moves them forward or aft.


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## Tracer (Sep 16, 2012)

That video is most definitely NOT how you sit in an Australian saddle. If that's how they're advertising their saddles, they're doing it VERY wrong.

You can see in the photos posting by bsms and DraftyAiresMum how the saddle makes you sit. Yes, it isn't quite as 'under' as english saddles, but it definitely is not sticking your legs out in front of you. Honestly, in the video it looks like the rider isn't bending their knee. If you bend your knee, your leg comes back.

It's actually quite easy to post in them, provided you don't have too much of a forward motion which has you hitting the poleys.


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## AbbeyX (Dec 1, 2015)

No of course every Aussie saddle doesn't do this but just like english and western tack there are good and bad saddles out there. They are just not as commonly used here and so people that want one tend to take whatever they can get their hands on regardless of quality. A nice stock saddle is often several thousand dollars or synthetic. Wintec makes a decent synthetic one but for the most part the good ones are imported. I do all kinds of riding and these are my saddle of choice... but yes generally you do have to look around a while to find a good one. The good ones are awesome to ride in, super comfortable and very secure. The only thing I won't go in them is jump.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The ones I'm referring to are the DownUnder saddles, which would include their Kimberly line. I own two of them. They obviously are not genuine, made in Australia saddles. Those start at about $3000 and go up from there. I paid about $800 for each of mine, new but on a 20% off sale.

No saddle can make someone put their feet in front of the saddle. DownUnder makes OK saddles for the price, but their people do NOT know much about riding in them. That is why one of their customer service people tried to tell me their saddles were made to go on top of the horse's shoulder...:evil:

I've mostly moved to western saddles. So have a lot of Australians. The 'cross over' style has become much more common in Australia than it used to be, and it uses a western saddle tree and swinging fenders. In the US, it is easier to find a good fitting and well made western saddle than an Australian-style saddle. But I've got to say my DownUnder Australian-style saddles did help me to stay on a spooky horse when I was far too green a rider to stay on without some extra help! I've had the poleys put bruises on my thighs during a spook, but that sure beats slamming into the ground!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I got lucky with mine. Nearest my tack guy and I could figure out, it was completely handmade, most likely by an apprentice, but because of some flaws, the maker wouldn't put his mark on it. Heavy solid wood tree, decent-quality leather, hand stitching. Paid $125 for it used. Wish I'd never sold it. *sigh*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Haven't read all replies, but I think Stock saddles are indeed *traditionally* designed with a forward(compared to dressage/ap, probably same as Western tho) stirrup position & more of a 'chair seat' style, as some here have called it. They do traditionally tend to be, although as with Westerns, it ain't necessarily so - perhaps the ones you've ridden in bmsm, are better balanced. 

And of course, as with any type, it depends very much on how it fits the horse, amount of stuffing, depth of seat, etc as to how a rider will balance in a saddle. The same saddle will sit quite differently on different shaped horses, and they can also be flocked to sit quite differently.

Caught some comments about using english stirrup leathers over wider ones. I learned to ride in stock saddles... so it may well have first been more to do with the standard of my riding then, and I also didn't understand about saddle fit & balance... they were more of a 'chair seat' affair, with my feet naturally forward of where the leathers would hang, bum way back, so my body - & therefore my legs, went forward & back when I rose to the trot - a lot of effort & would rub/pinch my calves raw! Riding with 'fender' leathers, or at least about 2" wide ones avoided legs getting worn out. I've only ridden in a stock on a few occasions in recent years, and still have that issue, tho I find it effortless to keep my legs under me... & not rubbed when in a well balanced English.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The dread of a "chair seat" comes from a misunderstanding of what happens when the feet are forward. If the "chair seat" involves the thighs being horizontal, then it perches weight up high and prevents the use of the leg for any sort of shock absorption. Bad.

But if it involves a long leg, such as was used in Australian stock saddles and western ones, the effect is different. It firms up the rear thigh muscle, just as "heels down" firms up the calf muscle. It puts more contact into the thigh and less in the butt. It puts the legs in the area of smallest circumference (for many horse, not for Bandit). A small tilt forward then gives you the balance of a forward seat but the long legs and lower CG that help with security. It also provides better security if the horse is inclined to stop suddenly without asking - which would be a huge no-no in dressage, but is a fact of life with the horses I ride.

A dressage-like position is not better balanced - unless you are riding a highly collected horse across level terrain. THEN it is the best balanced position. A forward seat is better balanced for speed. The old cowboy position, for lack of a better term, was better balanced for green horses in rough terrain - at least, if the rider valued security over top speed.

The shape of my western saddle, and the fact it is slick leather, affects the best way to ride it. It is simply a wider saddle than an English or Australian one, with a lot more stuff under the knee. This is a picture of where my right knee goes:








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This is the side of my Australian-style DownUnder saddle:








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They have a very different feel. What a person can do with their knees in one cannot be done in the other. What makes it easiest to balance and move with the horse is different. How one's weight is distributed by the saddle on to the horse's back is different. Yet many books and instructors teach "position" instead of "balance". That was one of the things I liked about Littauer - his emphasis was on balance and moving with the horse instead of 'put your heel here'.

If your horse is getting nervous and thinking about turning without asking you first, sliding your legs well forward can 'fence him in' and reassure him. It can also help if/when he ducks down and spins regardless. That isn't something dressage or western pleasure judges worry about, but it is a fact in my riding life.

My horses never move like this, but the rider's position is sometimes the safest one for me to adopt when things are getting questionable (Internet picture, no one I know):










http://allemieux.com/blog/tag/cutting-horse-in-action/​


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

bsms said:


> The dread of a "chair seat" comes from a misunderstanding


Nope, not that I 'dread' it anyway - I agree fully that different positions for different... activities. But my dislike of 'chair seat' for general riding comes from experience, not misunderstanding. And nothing at all to do with 'horizontal' or remotely close, thighs. I've always ridden with long leathers. Cept when I was riding trackwork. 



> A dressage-like position is not better balanced - unless you are riding a highly collected horse across level terrain. THEN it is the best balanced position. A forward seat is better balanced for speed.


As said, yes, for different activities, of course different paces require different balance... but disagree personally that for general riding - & I trailride, not into dressage particularly, or sticking to level surfaces... assuming I find any! - I do absolutely find a 'dressage position' far more balanced, than saddles which have the stirrup position forward of your balance point. I ride bareback a lot and find my natural 'default' position is a 'dressagy' one. 

Different preference of position is also likely to be effected by... anatomy of rider. I do remember taking novice guys on trail rides & have them say they think I must have given them female saddles....:rofl:

At any rate, there are also well(differently, if you like) balanced stocks & westerns, & badly balanced English too... a lot of 'All Purpose' saddles IME are more forward seat, to accommodate jumping position better.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Is this a chair seat?










Suppose individual preference comes down to a lot, but the biomechanics of the seat above says if his horse DID slam on the brakes, he'd be prepared. It also allows for shock absorption thru the hinge of the hip. I suspect he is doing it so his seat can drive the horse's motion, since I doubt he is worried about Totilas slamming on the brakes! The video is here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOtOkL6FFAc

The more vertically aligned the rider is, the shorter the base of support from front to back. The cavalry drew it this way, but I added a vertical, "classical position" to it. The red line represents the base of support in a classical position, and the green either a forward seat or 'old west' seat:










The orange leg and blue back would be the old west position, which Mr Gal does a good job of using.

As for which is more comfortable...I tend to put my leg close to under my hip (about my belt buckle) for casual riding. It doesn't normally go ALL the way under my hip, but that may be due to the tightness of my old man hips. Even on slender little Bandit, my thighs won't go very vertical! Another Australian on the forum suggested men may prefer legs forward, since her father insists on riding that way. "Old man hips" may explain a lot...:think:

But if I anticipate a need for security dealing with a sudden stop, or a stop / duck / spin, then my legs slide forward - both to reassure my horse AND to prepare me in case he decides to connect with his inner cutting horse. Bandit gives warning when he is thinking of trying to be a cutting horse. Mia did not. Bandit is safe to ride with a more vertical leg until he shows signs of nervousness. Mia was not, since she didn't GIVE warning signs.

How anyone rides is up to them. Anyone who wants to ride with heel under hip is welcome to do so. Where I get perturbed is when people say what a lot of cowboys do, what Edward Gal does in much of the video, or what I do when my horse is getting antsy is a fault, or an "unbalanced seat".

The more exaggerated forward leg of the old west or 'old Australia" or current cutter isn't unbalanced. It is well balanced for security on some types of horses - particularly in a western saddle, where the knee is further away from the horse, and the horse is more likely by training to brake on his own.


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## EmilyJoy (Dec 30, 2011)

Just curious, do these saddles put the leg forward? To me it seems the Gulf Poley model has the stirrup leathers back quite a bit more then the other models, is this better? 
Classic Saddles
Off topic but does anyone know if these saddles look to be of good quality?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Yes, Emily, many do, because of stirrup placement etc, but as you've noticed, does depend on specifics & doesn't apply to all saddles.


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