# What's your opinion on cold blooded war horses?



## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

What is your source for this information?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Cold blooded horses were ridden into war, when knights wore heavy amour, for obvious reasons.
These horses were out maneuvered by the lighter horses, as time progressed, and agility and quickness replaced weight carrying ability, so that the 'modern war horse was a light horse, used in cavalry charges, ect
There is no "wAR horse breed per say, as many horses were used in war fare throughout the ages, with lighter horses replacing those heavy horses used in days of King Arthur!
Comanche is a famous war horse, who survived the Battle of the Little Big Horn.
He was not a large horse
Another famous war horse was Reckless, who served with the marines in the korean war, and was officially made a Sergeant, plus earned two purple hearts, i believe
We have the famous charger on Napoleon, and also Traveller, just to name a few. None were heavy horses, or cold blooded.
You are looking at a narrow point in history, which had knights riding off in full amour, joisting, etc


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

JMO, because my history has holes in it. While the horses used in war were probably selected on type, as the war progresses and losses sustained I understand that any horses could/were commandeered for replacement so selection criteria would have become very loose just to keep up numbers. In some instances as long as it wasn't too young it probably only had to be sound.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

anndankev said:


> What is your source for this information?


Good question


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Of course horses were sedate in battle, most were half starved and worked into the ground.

They had no energy to misbehave!

When WW1 broke out horses were commandeered from anyone and everyone, all types were taken, many never returned home. 

At the start of WW2 again many horses were commissioned but were not used although a lot of horses and mules were used.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

No, you information was incorrect. Regardless of the time in history, and the methods they were being carried by. War horses needed to have their feet done in a regular basis. Most battalions had a farrier or MANY! At all times, in order to keep the horses well shod or to replace lost shoes, because if the horses were not well shod, then the battalions who fall behind. 

Large, cold, blooded draft horses can be just as dramatic as light horses to break... But these horses worked hard and early in their lives and besides older horses, and with people that were more used to training young horses than we are today (since they did it so often) that it perhaps looked less dramatic than bronc busting ( which we all know breaking in should not be).


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

There are only two cavalry regiments in the UK forces nowadays, the Household Cavalry and the Kings Troop, the former do the parades around Buckingham palace, the horses in this regiment are always black, they have a coloured Drum Horse and the buglers ride greys. 

The Kings Troop ride bays and in their musical rides a team of six pull gum carriages.

When you see em perform you realise what training goes into them and most are fairly bomb proof!


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

anndankev said:


> What is your source for this information?


One of the trainers that is down the road from my barn and perhaps will be using has and breeds nothing but Perherons on her property. Lots of yearlings and foals. 

SHe said that since theyre cold blooded, people have been able to just ride them when young and really not much of a breaking them in process because they dont get scared of anything. Also with a few of them, their feet only have to be done once a year.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I hate to see the flare on her percherons!!! Percherons can be very reactive horses, one of the biggest crashes I have ever seen was when I was grooming for a 4-in hand at a Percheron show.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

The "cold blooded" draft horse we know today is NOT the horse that knights rode, but the notion is a romantic one. Ours are primarily from farm stock that did heavy plowing and pulling carts, and have done for thousands of years. There was a lot more farming to do than there were wars to fight, and a lot more heavy loads to pull than heavy noblemen in heavy armor. 

Having worked with a number of young/untrained drafts over the years, I concur that they can be VERY dramatic to train, as much as any young light horse. Also, the "unflappable" draft is very much a product of training and exposure as much as it is breeding, and I've seen as many high-headed and hot-blooded drafts as I have calm, sedate light horses and ponies. 

And I hope to high heaven your "trainer" is not doing what she says with young drafts, because she's headed for a rude awakening. With someone who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING, most of them I have met have not been big challenges and are fairly easy to read. But their "dumb baby" behaviors are made even more dangerous by their size and heft. I had a Belgian/Appaloosa mare I was working with once who nearly broke my nose just from swinging her head around. 

If you're really interested in the TRUE history of horses being used in war, and the surrounding history of cultures/economies that affected them, I really recommend the book "War Horse: A History of the Military Horse and Rider" by Louis A. DiMarco. You can get it through Kindle on Amazon. It's a bit dry, but it's very well-researched and very complete.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I would like to see a draft horse that only needs its feet doing once a year unless it is doing work on hard surfaces.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

I'd run far, far away from this trainer. Cold blooded breeds tend to be less reactive than hot blooded breeds, but that doesn't mean they're born broke or need any less training. There's a lot more to training a horse under saddle than having it be calm.



Foxhunter said:


> I would like to see a draft horse that only needs its feet doing once a year unless it is doing work on hard surfaces.


I've seen the ones that "only need their feet done once a year." They _need_ to be done just as often as any other horse, they're just not being done :-|


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Dehda01 said:


> I hate to see the flare on her percherons!!! Percherons can be very reactive horses, one of the biggest crashes I have ever seen was when I was grooming for a 4-in hand at a Percheron show.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


WHat do you mean flare?


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Hoofpic said:


> WHat do you mean flare?


When their feet look like this: 










Scotch bottom shoes are awful, IMO.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Mulefeather said:


> The "cold blooded" draft horse we know today is NOT the horse that knights rode, but the notion is a romantic one. Ours are primarily from farm stock that did heavy plowing and pulling carts, and have done for thousands of years. There was a lot more farming to do than there were wars to fight, and a lot more heavy loads to pull than heavy noblemen in heavy armor.
> 
> Having worked with a number of young/untrained drafts over the years, I concur that they can be VERY dramatic to train, as much as any young light horse. Also, the "unflappable" draft is very much a product of training and exposure as much as it is breeding, and I've seen as many high-headed and hot-blooded drafts as I have calm, sedate light horses and ponies.
> 
> ...


Im trying to learn more about the Percheron breed and how theyre different from all the other breeds.

I just visited her last Thurs at her place, she showed me around and told me what shes done, etc. She does breed and resale as a side income.

She said that Percerons are a cold blooded horse. She even showed me a couple of her horses who have only had do trim their feet once a year.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

verona1016 said:


> I'd run far, far away from this trainer. Cold blooded breeds tend to be less reactive than hot blooded breeds, but that doesn't mean they're born broke or need any less training. There's a lot more to training a horse under saddle than having it be calm.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen the ones that "only need their feet done once a year." They _need_ to be done just as often as any other horse, they're just not being done :-|


Well I havent used this trainer yet, I just met her last Thurs and was observing. We ended up chatting for a few hours since I ended up having tea and dinner at her place. I was just getting a feel for her because she originally contacted me because of my interest in attending clinics this summer. Obviously she runs her own clinics, she does H/J and jousting and 
has trained horses for Heartland (well known show here in Alberta).

She basically said that all her fillies, very few of them need to be broken in to the extent of any other breed. When theyre 3 or 4, her kids can just jump on them and it doesnt phase the horses at all. 

I didnt ask why her horses feet only need to be done once a year but I did observe and look at each horses feet and they all looked fine. Looked like any other horse, no cracks, no flares. She said that if their hoofs crack, its usually sideways and not upwards going into the hoof like any other horse.


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

It's great to be interested in the breed and it's history, but you have to bear in mind that the "history' we're given on some breeds is a bit embellished, and not always correct. It's best to do your own research as well as talking to others. Most breeders are not historians or researchers.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I think this would be a better place to start researching the breed, rather than a trainer who clearly doesn't know very much: Percheron History

Any horse can be a handful to break in. Just because a draft may not react as much to the initial backing doesn't mean there won't be other issues. My old BO, who broke in my gelding, swore he was born broke (moving off leg pressure his first ride, never really reacted to anything, etc). Not true. He can be just as bullheaded and contrary as any young/green horse and needs the exact same training as any other horse.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Mulefeather said:


> When their feet look like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Her horses feet definitely did not look anything like this. All their feet looked just like any other horses feet trimmed every 6 weeks.

The good news is that I recently had a nice lady contact me through my ad "looking for clinics to attend this summer" who has provided me with a lot of great suggestions and places to check out.

She is a trainer and has been in the industry for 12 years now. Yes shes younger, but age is only a number. Ive been chatting with her over the past couple weeks just about daily in regards to me finding clinics. 

I ran this trainers (the one who I visited last Thurs) name by her just now and waiting to hear back to see if she knows anything about this trainer.

Sorry, dont mean to derail the topic of this thread but I "JUST" got permission from my BO this past Sat to bring in an outside trainer for me. This trainer will visit once or twice a week just to observe me.

Im so happy and relieved that he fufilled my request. I am going to use my current trainer for riding and another trainer for everything else. Nothing against my current trainer but I like told my BO this weekend "I feel that I benefit greatly when learning from multiple trainers".....and "nothing against the current trainer, shes great, but shes so hard to book time with during the work week". 

He said he completely understands and he feels the same as well.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hoofpic said:


> One of the trainers that is down the road from my barn and perhaps will be using has and breeds nothing but Perherons on her property. Lots of yearlings and foals.
> 
> SHe said that since theyre cold blooded, people have been able to just ride them when young and really not much of a breaking them in process because they dont get scared of anything. Also with a few of them, their feet only have to be done once a year.


What a bunch of BS!
Yes, as a kid, I 'broke a young percheron to both ride and drive, but that does not mean they don't require training like any other horse, to make them solid in all situations, and their feet are far from self maintaining! In fact, draft horse hooves are notorious for flaring, if left go!
We used them in the tobacco fields at home, and they had feet issues, even working in sand. My step father was a person to let hooves go, so that was part of the problem, but also those hooves were miles from self maintenance!
They are also draft horses, not war horses, although in days of old, cold bloods, due to the sheer weight they had to carry, with a knight, were used as war horses, until those types of war horses and cumbersome knights, were out maneuvered by light cavalry from the east, which changed the type of horse used in war from those heavy horses


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> They are also draft horses, not war horses, although in days of old, cold bloods, due to the sheer weight they had to carry, with a knight, were used as war horses, until those types of war horses and cumbersome knights, were out maneuvered by light cavalry from the east, which changed the type of horse used in war from those heavy horses


Actually, Percherons did start out as war horses, also known as heavy saddle horses. Then they became heavy carriage/light draft horses (similar to Friesians). Finally, they became the heavy drafts we know today. Infusions of Arab blood in the 18th and 19th century lightened them up a little and added some flair to their carriage, as well as making them slightly hotter than other draft horse breeds.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Smilie said:


> What a bunch of BS!
> Yes, as a kid, I 'broke a young percheron to both ride and drive, but that does not mean they don't require training like any other horse, to make them solid in all situations, and their feet are far from self maintaining! In fact, draft horse hooves are notorious for flaring, if left go!
> We used them in the tobacco fields at home, and they had feet issues, even working in sand. My step father was a person to let hooves go, so that was part of the problem, but also those hooves were miles from self maintenance!
> They are also draft horses, not war horses, although in days of old, cold bloods, due to the sheer weight they had to carry, with a knight, were used as war horses, until those types of war horses and cumbersome knights, were out maneuvered by light cavalry from the east, which changed the type of horse used in war from those heavy horses


So are you sayin this trainer is full of it and I should run away from her.

Remember I havent hired her yet, was just considering thats all.

Im not even going to work with this trainer, but (whoever I choose) will just be observing me from a 3rd person perspective and chime in with their opinion.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> So are you sayin this trainer is full of it and I should run away from her.
> 
> Remember I havent hired her yet, was just considering thats all.
> 
> Im not even going to work with this trainer, but (whoever I choose) will just be observing me from a 3rd person perspective and chime in with their opinion.


The fact that she doesn't think her horses' feet _need_ to be done more than once a year is a huge red flag for me, regardless of anything else. That's basic horse care 101. If she's so misinformed on something that absolutely basic, what else is she wrong on?


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> The fact that she doesn't think her horses' feet _need_ to be done more than once a year is a huge red flag for me, regardless of anything else. That's basic horse care 101. If she's so misinformed on something that absolutely basic, what else is she wrong on?


So just because her horses are Percherons, it doesnt make the cold blooded horses any different in terms of their feetÉ

Im not denying your advice, but Im just wondering why none of their feet were flared up.

I would love to post her website on here for you girls to check out but I know its not allowed. I managed to find some of her past clinics that she held on youtube and going to watch it.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Hoofpic said:


> So just because her horses are Percherons, it doesnt make the cold blooded horses any different in terms of their feetÉ
> 
> Im not denying your advice, but Im just wondering why none of their feet were flared up.
> 
> I would love to post her website on here for you girls to check out but I know its not allowed.


Exactly, to the first part. My gelding does have harder feet than most of the light horses I know and have dealt with, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need them done but once a year. I can get by with a twelve-week trim cycle, instead of a six-week, but any longer than that and his feet start to look awful. 

I wonder if she only has them trimmed once a year, but keeps them rasped in between.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I'm guessing that if it is a breeding barn then the mares are only trimmed once a year or so, I see it a lot around here...and to be honest, there are a lot of cracked up horrible looking feet, but they do not have paddocks full of gimped up lame mares. Is it good practice HECK NO, does it happen, Oh yes.

This is a horse who had no foot care at all for at least 7 years before I got her, her feet are bad yes, but she was always functional...here you go before and after her first trim


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Golden Horse said:


> I'm guessing that if it is a breeding barn then the mares are only trimmed once a year or so, I see it a lot around here...and to be honest, there are a lot of cracked up horrible looking feet, but they do not have paddocks full of gimped up lame mares. Is it good practice HECK NO, does it happen, Oh yes.
> 
> This is a horse who had no foot care at all for at least 7 years before I got her, her feet are bad yes, but she was always functional...here you go before and after her first trim
> 
> View attachment 770914


I wouldn't doubt this.

Drafts are also more prone to pancaking feet, which means long, splayed toes and barely any heel (or crushed heels). A lot of people somehow thing that's how draft feet are supposed to look. :icon_rolleyes:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Fact remains, all draft horses are cold bloods, including percherons.
Also not trying to say that the ancestors of these horses weren't used as war horses, as the horses used in wars, in Europe, in medieval times were heavy horses
It is also a fact that jousting competitions are a present sport, where heavy horses are seen-heck, you can take in such a show at Las Vegas!
The actual Percheron, like any other breed, started at the time registries were formed, and breeding records kept

From Wikipedia 


Horses in the Middle Ages differed in size, build and breed from the modern horse, and were, on average, smaller. They were also more central to society than their modern counterparts, being essential for war, agriculture, and transport.

Consequently, specific types of horse developed, many of which have no modern equivalent. While an understanding of modern horse breeds and equestrianism is vital for any analysis of the medieval horse, researchers also need to consider documentary (both written and pictorial) and archaeological evidence.

Horses in the Middle Ages were rarely differentiated by breed, but rather by use. This led them to be described, for example, as "chargers" (war horses), "palfreys" (riding horses), cart horses or packhorses. Reference is also given to their place of origin, such as "Spanish horses," but whether this referred to one breed or several is unknown. Another difficulty arising during any study of medieval documents or literature is the flexibility of the medieval languages, where several words can be used for one thing (or, conversely, several objects are referred to by one word). Words such as 'courser' and 'charger' are used interchangeably (even within one document), and where one epic may speak disparagingly of a rouncey, another praises its skill and swiftness.

Significant technological advances in equestrian equipment, often introduced from other cultures, allowed for significant changes in both warfare and agriculture. In particular, improved designs for the solid-treed saddle as well as the arrival of the stirrup, horseshoe and horse collar were significant advances in medieval society.

Consequently, the assumptions and theories developed by historians are not definitive, and debate still rages on many issues, such as the breeding or size of the horse, and a number of sources must be consulted in order to understand the breadth of the subject.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

War horse, in the time of heavy horses, as above:

Warhorse

From this link:
Original Medieval Warhorse breed is now extinct
The original Medieval Warhorse breed is now extinct, but recently horses have been bred from Clydesdales and Quarter horses to reproduce a type similar to the Medieval Warhorse. They are the largest breed of horse, standing from 20 to 24 hands tall, with a thicker build than Clydesdales with less fur.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

More history on types of war horses, versus any breed

Horses of Medieval Europe

Any horse needs his feet trimmed, although feral horses covering lots of hard ground, as the desert horses, self trimmed, but none of our domestic horses cover the amount of ground, nor the variety of ground, to not require hoof care
So, unless those Percherons are covering 20 to 30 miles of hard ground daily,being culled by predators, they need hoofcare!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The majority of cold blooded draft horses were used to work the fields or pull heavy loads from A to B - no clue where the 'cold blooded war horse' bit is coming from other than very ancient medieval history because the modern day 'war horse' wasn't a heavy draft type
Is this woman maybe a touch over romanticizing things?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

When most non-horse people think "war horse," they think the big cold-blooded horses from medieval times. Yes, horse people know that light saddle horses have been used in more recent times, but the majority of people simply picture the old, heavy horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> I wonder if she only has them trimmed once a year, but keeps them rasped in between.


Thats my guess because honestly when you look at them, all her horses feet look properly trimmed and healthy.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Hire her for what, Hoofpic?


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Hoofpic said:


> Thats my guess because honestly when you look at them, all her horses feet look properly trimmed and healthy.


Did she pick a hoof up to show you the balance on the underside?

Just because a hoof looks good from a 'bird's eye view', doesn't mean it does not need attention.

I will echo the others, run as far as you can.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> When most non-horse people think "war horse," they think the big cold-blooded horses from medieval times. Yes, horse people know that light saddle horses have been used in more recent times, but the majority of people simply picture the old, heavy horses.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would have thought that the recent film 'War Horse' would have changed that though perhaps there are still some who conjure up images of Knights in shining armour plodding into battle on their shire horses!!!


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Don't forget the ponies the Mongols rode, and the warhorse of the dessert, the Arabian.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

jaydee said:


> I would have thought that the recent film 'War Horse' would have changed that though perhaps there are still some who conjure up images of Knights in shining armour plodding into battle on their shire horses!!!


In light of this thread, I asked my very non-horsey husband what he thought of when I said "war horse." Without hesitation, his answer was "knights in armor." He's never seen the movie War Horse, but he was in the military, so knows about the cavalry used in more recent wars.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> In light of this thread, I asked my very non-horsey husband what he thought of when I said "war horse." Without hesitation, his answer was "knights in armor." He's never seen the movie War Horse, but he was in the military, so knows about the cavalry used in more recent wars.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Well, the links I posted, pretty much go into the history of horses used in war, through the ages.
As those links show, even when knights rode into battle on heavy horses, the breeds they used are now extinct, plus they used three types of horses , even then
The links go into that fact
I also mentioned that when agility/speed of maneuver became important, the horses used in war changed
There is no war horse per say, as many horses were used in battle, with light horses having a way longer history in that compartment, then heavy horses ever did!
Mustangs helped fuel horse flesh in the great World wars
Yes, draft horses are used now for re-enactments of jousting, but that does not make them a war horse. Light horses are used all the time in movies that have cavalry, but unless they are in an actual war, are not war horses either, but animal actors.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I have pasted the history of horses, used in war, from Wikipedia:

'Horses in warfare

The first use of horses in warfare occurred over 5,000 years ago. The earliest evidence of horses ridden in warfare dates from Eurasia between 4000 and 3000 BC. A Sumerian illustration of warfare from 2500 BC depicts some type of equine pulling wagons. By 1600 BC, improved harness and chariot designs made chariot warfare common throughout the Ancient Near East, and the earliest written training manual for war horses was a guide for training chariot horses written about 1350 BC. As formal cavalry tactics replaced the chariot, so did new training methods, and by 360 BC, the Greek cavalry officer Xenophon had written an extensive treatise on horsemanship. The effectiveness of horses in battle was also revolutionized by improvements in technology, including the invention of the saddle, the stirrup, and later, the horse collar.

Many different types and sizes of horse were used in war, depending on the form of warfare. The type used varied with whether the horse was being ridden or driven, and whether they were being used for reconnaissance, cavalry charges, raiding, communication, or supply. Throughout history, mules and donkeys as well as horses played a crucial role in providing support to armies in the field.

Horses were well suited to the warfare tactics of the nomadic cultures from the steppes of Central Asia. Several East Asian cultures made extensive use of cavalry and chariots. Muslim warriors relied upon light cavalry in their campaigns throughout North Africa, Asia, and Europe beginning in the 7th and 8th centuries AD. Europeans used several types of war horses in the Middle Ages, and the best-known heavy cavalry warrior of the period was the armored knight. With the decline of the knight and rise of gunpowder in warfare, light cavalry again rose to prominence, used in both European warfare and in the conquest of the Americas. Battle cavalry developed to take on a multitude of roles in the late 18th century and early 19th century and was often crucial for victory in the Napoleonic wars. In the Americas, the use of horses and development of mounted warfare tactics were learned by several tribes of indigenous people and in turn, highly mobile horse regiments were critical in the American Civil War.

Horse cavalry began to be phased out after World War I in favor of tank warfare, though a few horse cavalry units were still used into World War II, especially as scouts. By the end of World War II, horses were seldom seen in battle, but were still used extensively for the transport of troops and supplies. Today, formal battle ready horse cavalry units have almost disappeared, though the United States Army Special Forces used horses in battle during the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan. Horses are still seen in use by organized armed fighters in Third World countries. Many nations still maintain small units of mounted riders for patrol and reconnaissance, and military horse units are also used for ceremonial and educational purposes. Horses are also used for historical reenactment of battles, law enforcement, and in equestrian competitions derived from the riding and training skills once used by the military.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

...not to forget the little Caspians who are neither large nor cold blooded, but were brave by nature and that made them valuable in war.

"The Caspian Horse dates back to 3000 years before the birth of Christ, and probably earlier. It is believed to be the horse described in ancient artwork and documents from as early as the sixth century BC. The seal of King Darius the Great (521-486 BC) depicts fine legged, dish faced horses thought to be Caspian Horses. These brave little horses were used to pull chariots in the days of the Persian Kings, valued highly because their small size allowed them to maneuver in the public arenas where they faced such dangers as captured lions."

http://www.lessingimages.com/w1/080201/08020161.jpg 

http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/italian-relief-chariot-driver-29759189.jpg

Today's war horses, work for your big city Police departments

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IWCYvFA70...VPSCNTb0Ns8/s1600/mounted_police_DSC_2782.jpg


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

For the ease of just getting on and off its more likely that sturdy cobs were used to carry knights in armour than tall plow horses, the horses depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry don't look much like heavy draft horses


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Not sure how this turned into a "you're wrong, I'm right" debate. I simply stated that when the majority of NON-HORSE PEOPLE think of a "war horse," they think of big, heavy, cold-blooded horses...like Percherons. Yes, there are more types that have been used by different cavalries throughout the ages. But the fact remains that most people who don't know horses think of cold-blooded draft horses when they hear the term "war horse." This is, largely in part, due to the fact that Hollywood has portrayed them that way for decades. We believe of history what Hollywood tells us to believe. Plain and simple.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It isn't a 'you're wrong/right' thing - just a discussion about why hoofpics lady calls her horse's 'war horses' that's evolved into war horses in general


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Drafty, no challenge to you intended, I was answering the OP's question. Maybe I never bought into the whole Hollywood thing so I think of a war horse as any brave horse who will go into danger when asked even when every fiber of his instincts are telling him/her otherwise. Less about size, breed or carrying capacity and more about the nature of the individual horse.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

jaydee said:


> It isn't a 'you're wrong/right' thing - just a discussion about why hoofpics lady calls her horse's 'war horses' that's evolved into war horses in general


Sorry, I just really get the feeling that Smilie in particular is trying to prove me wrong and herself right. Not feeling attacked, but just that the fact that non-horse people view things differently than horse people do isn't being taken into account or is being dismissed for "what's right." How many of us had to "dumb down" or generalize horse things when we're talking to non-horse people? Could be that this supposed "trainer" is doing just that, not taking into account that Hoofpic isn't entirely non-horsey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Not sure how this turned into a "you're wrong, I'm right" debate. I simply stated that when the majority of NON-HORSE PEOPLE think of a "war horse," they think of big, heavy, cold-blooded horses...like Percherons. Yes, there are more types that have been used by different cavalries throughout the ages. But the fact remains that most people who don't know horses think of cold-blooded draft horses when they hear the term "war horse." This is, largely in part, due to the fact that Hollywood has portrayed them that way for decades. We believe of history what Hollywood tells us to believe. Plain and simple.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


ReaLLY?
While the days of knights had a limited time frame and also area(Europe ), the use of horses in war, has the light horse way out number any draft horses.
I rather think when non horse people think of a War horse, they think of the movie War Horse, which in fact, features a TB type horse, if I am not mistaken, who fought in Word War One.
Reckless, Pride of the Marines, is a book about an actual war horse that fought during the Korean war. She was a light eastern race horse.
Look at the numerous was memorials, featuring military leaders, and they are seated on light horses.
It is not right and wrong, but just putting facts out there.
When I think of a Percheron, I think of a draft horse, that we used , when I grew up, and thus which has a special spot in my heart, far as heavy horses
Tonka (comanche _ was made famous in the story of the Little Big Horn
Many people are familiar with the poem centered around that fatal cavalry charge by the Light brigade
Without looking it up, i believe General Lee rode Traveller .Bucephalous is believed to be of Arab and Caspian breeding, although his actual breed is not known and extinct today, but he is a horse I associate with 'ancient war horse
Pictures of chariots, certainly show a horse type that evolved in the desert
Ancient chinese art, shows a light horse with Appaloosa markings, used in war 
War horses of the Indians were mustangs, with the Nez perce breeding Appaloosas.
Certainly the war horses brought by the the Spanish, were of Baroque breeding
Only if you are steeped in tales of king Arthur, would you associate heavy horses with being war horses
I guess that I don't agree that non horse people associate draft horses necessarily as being War horses, esp exclusion of many other breeds, as people do read history, and beyond that of the Middle ages in Europe
I thinkt that breeder was just trying to promote her horses by adding a touch of glamour and hardiness, based on them being War Horses , not frightened by anything, needing no hoof care!


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

I agree that non-horse people do tend to believe what TV and movies show them. How many of us have had to explain that the way things work on the screen is NOT how they happen in real life to someone who didn't know horses? 

Very few non-horse people probably know about cavalry usage in WW1 or WW2 - or that in certain areas, horses and mules are still being used in current conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan due to difficult terrain. 

Going back to the original point, draft horses, Percherons in particular, are often over-romanticized as "war horses" by those who have not done any particular research into history. The wiki quote Smilie posted only barely scratches the surface of not only the history, but the economies, cultures, and climates involved in warfare where horses are used. Those things give you important clues as to context in historical research-the "why" and the "for what purpose".

If we look at when Percherons started being imported to the US from France, it looks like the early to mid-1800's were when the US began importing seriously. It's not a big leap of logic to assume that Percheron breeders wanting to sell to the US would wax romantic about their big, strong "war horses" to convince a flaky buyer to open their wallets. 

This era in the US was Pre-Civil War, so plenty of trade going on, and plenty of immigrants who took to farming that would need draft animals to do work.

Also, if we think Post-Civil War, the market would have been even bigger for trans-continental trade in horses. Both sides, especially the South, lost an ungodly amount of horses to battle, theft, or armies commandeering stock for either food (Southern armies especially suffered from supply problems and starvation) or to pull heavy artillery. In Reconstruction, the market would have been wide open - and the War Horse myth could run rampant.

This is all speculation, of course - but they're all educated guesses as to how the mythos of the "War horse" has held on so strongly.


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## ManicMini (May 4, 2015)

I believe the public (specifically the people of the USA) thinks of "war horses" and "cavalry horses" as two different types of horses. The public views "war horses" as big, draft horses being used to carry the knights in heavy armor into battle during medieval times. While "cavalry horses" are the lighter riding horses used by the United States' military forces. As far as modern Hollywood's views as to what the ideal war horse is, well we all know that the knight in shining armor rides in on either an elegant Friesian or a dreamy Andalusian 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

sarahfromsc said:


> Don't forget the ponies the Mongols rode, and the warhorse of the dessert, the Arabian.


Really? I would have thought they would have ridden Mongolian Horses/Ponies

Mongolian Pony

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/mongols/conquests/khans_horses.pdf


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

After talking with a good member on here and another girl, I wont be going with this trainer. I was going to attend her clinic in a few weeks but I wont do that either. I will spectate for one day but thats it.

Even though this trainer does talk big by saying how she teaches jousting, her 9 year old girl jumps, she's trained the horses on Heartland show etc. Its just her comment on paints (generalizing them as smart and sensitive) and her only doing her horses feet once a year really concern me.

I was recommended another trainer name from one of the girls and will continue my search for a good and trusted outside trainer.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Golden Horse said:


> Really? I would have thought they would have ridden Mongolian Horses/Ponies
> 
> Mongolian Pony
> 
> http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/mongols/conquests/khans_horses.pdf


I worded my post poorly.

The Mongols and their ponies.

The Bedouins and the Arabian.

I apologize!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

ManicMini said:


> I believe the public (specifically the people of the USA) thinks of "war horses" and "cavalry horses" as two different types of horses. The public views "war horses" as big, draft horses being used to carry the knights in heavy armor into battle during medieval times. While "cavalry horses" are the lighter riding horses used by the United States' military forces. As far as modern Hollywood's views as to what the ideal war horse is, well we all know that the knight in shining armor rides in on either an elegant Friesian or a dreamy Andalusian
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Many draft horses , including percherons, are used today for re enactments of medieval jousting, as those 'original' heavy horses used by the knights are extinct. In fact, there is no real documentation of 'breeds' used
I know several Percheron breeders in fact, and none promote their horses as war horses. The are just a breed of heavy horses, sometimes crossed on light horse breeds for sport horses.
There are draft horse breeders that have their favorite draft breed, just like light horse people often have their favorite breed, but when all is said and done, draft horses were bred to pull and provide horse power to logging and farming operations
All heavy horses are cold bloods, and the idea of one cold blood being' hotter', is a strange concept, although any family of horses have inherited characteristics
I would guess that this trainer trains some jousting horses-thus the War horse label


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## Saskia (Aug 26, 2009)

I had a part Clydesdale filly that I broke in at 13 and she was a great. At four I probably would have let kids ride around on her and she would be fine. 

But it would have been, and to use a phrase I have heard on here, "sneaking rides". Not asking her to do anything she would be great, if I started asking for something new or different or challenging she would be just as much work as any other.

The difference between a broke and unbroken horse isn't as clear as you may think. Many horses will never buck or bolt or misbehave in breaking. In that small way it's easier. In that way some horses may need little breaking. But the real stuff, getting balanced on a circle, responding to pressure, giving to the bit, great transitions, straightness and rhythm, those things are going to be just as challenging, sometimes even more so as those horses aren't as athletic or bred for riding as many other breeds. The getting on a horses back is just the first, and often easy, step towards a good, trained horse.

As far as them being war horses.. They're descendant of them. So are many warmbloods and many other breeds. They've changed and developed with the times. I like percherons. There is something appealing about them. I would probably like a first cross with something lighter and more athletic though.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I think the reason I can't get my head around the idea of tagging the label 'War Horse' on any specific type or breed is that in times of war all sorts of horses, ponies, donkeys and mules have been used
The Percheron is just one of many
Draft horses do need to be more biddable and easy going because their sheer bulk would make them dangerous and impossible to work with if they weren't but there are always exceptions in every breed
Of course creating an interesting history and a bit of mystique to conjure a mental image will always help sell something - which is why we now have all the Gypsy cobs, Gypsy Vanners and Drum Horses


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Smilie said:


> All heavy horses are cold bloods, and the idea of one cold blood being' hotter', is a strange concept, although any family of horses have inherited characteristics


Actually many draft folks consider Percherons to be "hotter" than other breeds due to Arabian influence in the breed's history. 

The Percherons I have worked with (either ex-Amish horses, or ones that were shown as driving horses, including a mare who held a World championship in single driving from Percheron congress) certainly fit the bill on that note. They can be sensitive, intelligent, and have a bit more "fire" as I've seen, and especially mares I've worked with seem to be very sensitive and need a connection to their handler/rider/driver to really be successful. A lot like the Arabians I've seen. 


If we contrast them against Belgians, who don't have the Arab influence as far as I am aware, we find that Belgians often have the "gentle giant" personality most people are assuming all drafts have. This is probably also due to their popularity as work and hitch horses with communities like the Amish. 

If we extrapolate that out to mules, which take a large portion of their personality from their horse mother and whatever breed/type she happens to be, I notice a distinct difference between Percheron and Belgian mules in personality. The Percheron mules tend to have that extra sensitivity, and they especially are sensitive to any sort of punishment or ill treatment- but they also tend to be dedicated to the people they bond with. 

A contact I made through my driving club and I spent a lot of time talking about his Percheron mare mule's quirkiness. Belgian mules (my own included) seem to be a lot more open and generally friendly to all, with a quieter work ethic, without the extra sensitivity I see in Percheron mules. If I was competing at something suited to a draft, I'd pick a Percheron mule, but if I was trail riding or doing general driving/farm work, I'd pick a Belgian mule.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Mulefeather said:


> If we contrast them against Belgians, who don't have the Arab influence as far as I am aware, we find that Belgians often have the "gentle giant" personality most people are assuming all drafts have.


Interesting Belgian anecdote, Fergie who is part Belgian, the vet had to increase sedation 3 times to get her to a stage she could do her teeth. She says that she finds it a lot with Belgians, they are peaceable, but fight through sedation...don't know the truth of it, but she is NOT a peaceable drunk!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I think the reason I can't get my head around the idea of tagging the label 'War Horse' on any specific type or breed is that in times of war all sorts of horses, ponies, donkeys and mules have been used
> The Percheron is just one of many
> Draft horses do need to be more biddable and easy going because their sheer bulk would make them dangerous and impossible to work with if they weren't but there are always exceptions in every breed
> Of course creating an interesting history and a bit of mystique to conjure a mental image will always help sell something - which is why we now have all the Gypsy cobs, Gypsy Vanners and Drum Horses


Agree.
Man's history of war, is intimately linked with the horse, who had died along side of him, more than any other animal
Horses provided more mobility, thus changed the history of warfare
Once gun powder became part of war, speed was much more of an asset then brute power and hand to hand combat, that used amour for protection
The is a reason draft horses are classified as cold bloods, and it is not because their blood runs at a lower temp!
That percheron foal that I raised and trained, as a kid, who knew nothing about horses, certainly must have been easy to train, as I rode her everywhere, don't recall having any type of training manual/guidance-and did basically just get on and ride.
I taught her to pull, by at first just hooking her up to a stone boat. I then bought a cutter for 10 whole dollars, and raced her across the snowy fields, finding out that when is not dragging a stone boat, one needs stops on those shafts!
While she did everything for me, she would kick anyone else that tried to hook her up, and would chase my brother, whenever he crossed the barnyard

Here is beauty



I do have some experience with Percherons, as I grew up with them, and learned to ride on them. When those work mares were turned out, my step dad always left a leather halter on. I would jump up on their back (oh to be young! ), pull the crown at that halter back, enough so I could grab the top with one hand, and then gallop that way across the fields


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Mulefeather said:


> Actually many draft folks consider Percherons to be "hotter" than other breeds due to Arabian influence in the breed's history.
> 
> The Percherons I have worked with (either ex-Amish horses, or ones that were shown as driving horses, including a mare who held a World championship in single driving from Percheron congress) certainly fit the bill on that note. They can be sensitive, intelligent, and have a bit more "fire" as I've seen, and especially mares I've worked with seem to be very sensitive and need a connection to their handler/rider/driver to really be successful. A lot like the Arabians I've seen.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I never found any Arabian influence in the Percherons that I grew up with. That hot blood, way back whenever, has little effect, as do any other genetics way back on a horse's papers, and why horsemen put little stock on some famous ancestor, way back on a horse;s pedigree page
I was a kid, trained that foal with no horse knowledge, and rode her everywhere. I drove her at full gallop with that cutter I was alble to do so, because of that cold blood disposition


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## Mulefeather (Feb 22, 2014)

Golden Horse said:


> Interesting Belgian anecdote, Fergie who is part Belgian, the vet had to increase sedation 3 times to get her to a stage she could do her teeth. She says that she finds it a lot with Belgians, they are peaceable, but fight through sedation...don't know the truth of it, but she is NOT a peaceable drunk!


I've never heard that part, very interesting! Buddy was never sedated when I owned him, so I never experienced it. He was also a generally peaceful and lazy kind of boy, but not a dead-head by any stretch.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is info on cold bloods in general, plus list of breeds

Coldbloods: Horse Breeds and Temperament Information
Horses are classified into three main categories, according to blood

Gets kinda confusing if one warmblood is hotter than another warmblood, one hot blood, more than another, and one cold blood 'hotter than another cold blood!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The ancient version of the modern day Percheron would have looked more like the Boulonnais horse still looks. They wanted a lighter horse for fancy carriage work and riding in the 18th century and onward and so introduced Arabian blood to create that and gradually turn it into the horse we see today
The idea that they were bred to be war horses is more than likely some romanticized myth that evolved over time because the original stamp of the horse was too heavy to be agile enough for that purpose and no different to all the other heavy draft horses of France - that were also bred for meat.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Here is info on cold bloods in general, plus list of breeds
> 
> Coldbloods: Horse Breeds and Temperament Information
> Horses are classified into three main categories, according to blood
> ...


There are degrees of hotness within the different designations. 

For example, QHs fall into the "hot blood" category, along with TBs and Arabs. I would definitely consider MOST TBs and Arabs MUCH hotter than the majority of QHs. But, they still fall into the same general category.

Within the warmbloods, Trakehners tend to be hotter than, say, Holsteiners. 

That's why I really don't like the terms "hot blood" and "cold blood." Define a horse based on it's use, not it's temperament. Hot bloods are really more accurately described as light riding horses. Cold bloods are more described as heavy or draft horses.

Also, if you look at the title of the OP, it's "What's your opinion on *COLD-BLOODED* war horses?" This indicates that the OP is asking about one specific type of war horse, not war horses in general. To deny that heavy/draft breeds were used as war horses is to deny part of their heritage. Now, if he had asked "What's your opinion on war horses?" then went on to specifically talk only about heavy/draft horses, I could see trying to set him to rights about the fact that many different types of horses have been used for war. But he didn't. He specifically asked about cold-blooded war horses, then further focused that by asking specifically about Percherons.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Did anyone bother to read the Percheron History link I provided early on in the thread from the Percheron Horse Association of America?

Directly quoted from there:


> Traditionally it has been a race with a preponderance of greys. Old paintings and crude drawings from the middle ages affirm this. The French Knight is almost always portrayed on a grey or white charger. Their mounts are depicted as horses with considerable substance for that time, but without coarseness.
> 
> When the day of the war horse (thanks to gun powder) was over, this color and that substance with style, was made to order to provide France with horses to pull heavy stage coaches.What was needed was a horse that could trot from 7 to 10 miles per hour and the endurance to do it day in and day out. The light colored greys and whites were preferred because of their visibility at night. With three turnpikes from Paris to the coastal ports of Normandy running through Le Perche, the French did not have to look very far to find the right kind to pull the heavy mail and passenger coaches for the kings of France. They were called Diligence horses, as the stage coaches were called diligences. They were more than a heavy coach horse with extravagant style, they were more like drafters. So let's just use the French word and call them Diligence Horses.


Percheron History


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> For example, QHs fall into the "hot blood" category, along with TBs and Arabs. I would definitely consider MOST TBs and Arabs MUCH hotter than the majority of QHs. But, they still fall into the same general category..


Hmm. I always was taught that QH were considered warm bloods? Using the American definition here whereby a warmblood is a horse that has mixed lineage of a "hot blood" and "cold blood" somewhere down the line of creating the breed.

Warmbloods Horse Breeds Information 


Here are some of the warmblood breeds:

American Albino American Bashkir Curly 
American Indian Horse American Saddlebred 
American Warmblood Andalusian 
Appaloosa AraAppaloosa 
Australian Stock Horse Azteca 
Banker Horse Belgian Warmblood 
Buckskin Camargue 
Canadian Canadian Sport Horse 
Cleveland Bay Criollo 
Don Dutch Warmblood 
Florida Cracker Horse Gelderlander 
Groningen Hackney Horse 
Half-Arabian Hanoverlan 
Holsteiner Irish Draft 
Irish Hunter Knabstruner 
Lipizzaner Lusitano 
Missouri Fox Trotter Morab 
Morgan Mustang 
National Show Horse Westphalian 
Oldenburg Paint Horse 
Palomino Paso Fino 
Peruvian Paso Quarter Horse 
Racking Horse Rocky Mountain Horse 
Selle Francais Spanish Mustang 
Standardbred Swedish Warmblood 
Tennessee Walking Horse Trakehner 
Welsh Cob Wurttemburg


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Quarter horses do not have any heavy horse blood in them. They were more a mix of TB and spanish horses. Paints are the same. Even some of the other horses on that list (TWH, saddlebred, any of the gaited breeds, really) do not have heavy horse anywhere back in their breeding, no matter how far back you go. 

That's why I said that unless specifically referring to the recognized warmbloods (Holsteiners, Trakehners, Dutch warmbloods, etc), the use of the terms "hot blood" and "cold blood" is a misnomer. Light saddle/riding horse and heavy/draft horse are MUCH more accurate descriptors than hot- and cold-blooded.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Actually, according to Hancock (one of the bigger breeders of QH) there is quite a bit of cold blood, but breeders sometimes didn't like to admit it.

Â*Hancock Horses .comÂ*Â*|Â*Â*Breeder FeatureÂ*Â*|Â*Â*Red Hot Hancock

There is also the influence of the mustangs, some of whom were drafts.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

there's a difference between "warm blooded" and "warmbloods".

warm blooded is , as you say, a cross between a cold blooded type and a hot blooded type. a "warmblood" is one of several breeds that were created by such crosses, a long time back, but are self-perpetuating. meaning, they don't create these horses by a cross anymore, but breed straight through to each other.

Most of them are European breeds.

some folks will say, "American warmblood" to mean this cross of a hot and a cold blooded horse. it's a catchy way of saying it, but the horse does not look , nor usually move, like the European warmblood breeds.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

That's why I specified the American definition and not the European one. Since the reference seemed to be to disposition rather than the way they move, I thought the distinction to be relevant.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> Hmm. I always was taught that QH were considered warm bloods? Using the American definition here whereby a warmblood is a horse that has mixed lineage of a "hot blood" and "cold blood" somewhere down the line of creating the breed.
> 
> Warmbloods Horse Breeds Information
> 
> ...


Far as I know, The AQHA is considered a warmblood, with TB and Arabians being half blood.
Of course, when you start mixing blood, as in an appendix AQHA, then you have whatever would be a cross between a hot blood and a warmblood
You can't use crosses like Morarbs, or App/Arabian, as you are mixing blood classifications.
Far as mustangs, they are not a breed, but feral horses with a great deal of diverse genetics, depending on area, and what breeds escaped, were combined with them ect.


Cold Blood. In northern and middle Europe, horses were originally bred mainly as farm and working horses. Their main function was to pull a plow or cart. As such they were bred for strength, the ability to work long hours, thick coats to protect them from European winters and a quiet disposition which made them easy to manage. The term 'cold' can apply equally to their calm disposition or the climate they were bred for.
Hot Blood. Originally bred in warmer climates, where they were used for long distance riding and for racing. A spirited, competitive and strong-willed personality has come through the breeding programs as traits which help them win races. The description 'hot' applies equally to their fiery personality and their original climate (southern Europe, middle-east, India).
Warm Blood. Warmbloods are breeds that fall between cold and hot bloods. Some of these breeds were created through crossing a hot blood and a cold blood, to gain the positive traits of both. In particular, they have the athletic build and performance of a hot blood, with the even temperaments of a cold blood. These makes them suitable for equiatrian sports, such as jumping or dressage, which require both athletic performance and the ability to be easily trained to a high level


Warmbloods are a group of middle-weight horse types and breeds primarily originating in Europe and registered with organizations that are characterized by open studbook policy, studbook selection, and the aim of breeding for equestrian sport. The term distinguishes these horses from both heavy draft horses ("cold bloods") and refined light saddle horses such as the Thoroughbred and Arabian ("hot bloods"). Although modern warmbloods are descended from heavier agricultural types systematically upgraded by hotblood influence, the term does not imply that warmbloods are direct crosses of "cold" and "hot".

An AQHA is a warmblood


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Drafty

For example, QHs fall into the "hot blood" category, along with TBs and Arabs. I would definitely consider MOST TBs and Arabs MUCH hotter than the majority of QHs. But, they still fall into the same general category.

Within the warmbloods, Trakehners tend to be hotter than, say, Holsteiners. 

That's why I really don't like the terms "hot blood" and "cold blood." Define a horse based on it's use, not it's temperament. Hot bloods are really more accurately described as light riding horses. Cold bloods are more described as heavy or draft horses.

Also, if you look at the title of the OP, it's "What's your opinion on COLD-BLOODED war horses?" This indicates that the OP is asking about one specific type of war horse, not war horses in general. To deny that heavy/draft breeds were used as war horses is to deny part of their heritage. Now, if he had asked "What's your opinion on war horses?" then went on to specifically talk only about heavy/draft horses, I could see trying to set him to rights about the fact that many different types of horses have been used for war. But he didn't. He specifically asked about cold-blooded war horses, then further focused that by asking specifically about Percherons.


AQHA horses, first of all, are classified as warmbloods.
Along your line of reasoning, then mustangs , and Arabians, plus a host of other horses, can all be described as war horses.
In fact, it was the Canadian, that was almost brought to extinction, being used heavily in war
Nor denying that heavy horses (not Percherons) but some distant extinct ancestors, were used by the knights, but that makes them no more war horses, or in fact, less so, then breeds now still existing, that actually were used in war
The army remounts, had aTB inlfuence


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

So I did some further investigation. Not really relevant, more as an FYI about QH's some might find interesting.

I would say they are considered a warm blooded breed and thus tempered to the hot blooded dispostions.

Joe Hancock was the grandson of a Percheron and as such would have been by the american definition warm blooded. He was owned by the Four Sixes ranch, the same place my Cowboy came from. 

Cowboy is built like a tank and has hooves literally the size of a salad plate. You look at him and you cannot help but see something more in him than little spanish mustangs or an arabian or even a refined boned thoroughbred. 

The papers I have for Cowboy Have Playgun, Freckles Playboy, Miss Silver Pistol, Peppy San Badger, Royal Blue Boon, Quicksilver Command, Bueno Chex Bonita, Taquery Gin and Natural on them. Going back off the actual papers, two generations further, on Sugar Badger her grand dam is listed as Unknown parentage. Tanquery Gin, son of Doc O'lena and then Doc Bar also traces back to "Unknown". This is true of almost every QH, so what is the "Unknown"? or should it perhaps say "I don't really want to say because if you saw the dam/sire you might not want to register my horse as a QH"? 

This is a carefully bred horse coming from the ranch that was instrumental in starting the AQHA. You don't really get more "Authentic" QH than a Four Sixes horse. Thus methinks QH's are considered warm bloods and not hot bloods.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If you take the term 'warmblood' literally then anything that's a cross between a cold blood (drafts and ponies) and a hot blood (Arabian, Akhal Teke, Barb - the TB is actually just a purpose designed Arabian) is a warmblood but that 'type' would have nothing to do with the recognized Warmblood horses that have been bred and refined in Europe for hundreds of years and if you consider that breeds like the Percheron and even most of the native British ponies have had Arabian blood mixed in over the years to get a more quality animal you can understand why there's a difference and why the edges are so blurred
I would think that most of the early AQHA horses were produced by breeding TB's from Europe with the horses that the early settlers brought with them to the east Coast - welsh cob types and Irish cobs than by mixing them with feral Spanish Mustangs.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

The difference is where did the breeder go from the introduction of the other breed? For instance it seems that those who were instrumental in breeding QH's bred for a calmer temperament out of the cold-bloods who were introduced. Thus that trait carried forward to subsequent generations even though the blood may have been thinned, the selected trait was retained. A calmer horse benefited the practical use of the animal in working cattle whereby not so much in the other breeds where perhaps speed, endurance, gait or strength were more pressing considerations. Just a thought.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

They raced the Quarter horses didn't they - that's how they got the name - they were raced over a quarter of a mile distance, that was something that started as long ago as when the first settlers established themselves in Virginia in the early 1600's. I think the foundation stallion of the breed as we know it today was a TB bred to whatever stock they had so adding more TB blood into the breed would have improved their ability to win. The first quarter horses would have been less cattle horses and more leisure horses - their use with cattle wouldn't have come about until the settlers moved west and started setting up the big ranches there. The first farming communities along the east coast would have been more like the British small scale way of farming I imagine


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> So I did some further investigation. Not really relevant, more as an FYI about QH's some might find interesting.
> 
> I would say they are considered a warm blooded breed and thus tempered to the hot blooded dispostions.
> 
> ...


Yes, there is draft breeding, TB breeding, mustang breeding, and a host of other breeds, that was the foundation of the AQHA horse, like any other breed, but that does not change the fact, when you break horses down to three main classifications, AQHA horses today are considered as belonging to the 'warmblood classification
Old Fred, certainly had draft blood, and all that does not matter, as breeding records are only kept, once a registry was formed
Heck, many foundation Appaloosa stallions, are 'crop outs from AQHA, having two registered AQHA parents.
Simple explanation-before registries were formed, horses inter bred. Those foundation obviously Appaloosa coated stallions, from two registered AQHA horses, have a simple explanation.
Those registries were formed , based on visible criteria, thus some solid horses, , roan horses, got put into the AQHA registry, carried Appaloosa coat pattern genetics
So, you can go back in many horse registries, and find either Arab or draft lurking there-does not matter!
Breeds are man made, and evolved by including many diverse genetics, until the books were closed Some registries, like my own ApHC and the Paint registry, are still in reality, ;evolving breeds', as they allow outcrossing to TB and AQHA, to get a fully registered Paint or Appaloosa
They do not meet the definition of a 'purebred', like an Arabian or a TB
All that is interesting, but doe snot change the fact, that experts in the field, like Dr Deb Bennett, and general horse industry experts with no one breed affiliation, have classified the modern AQHA horse as belonging in the warmblood class
In fact, if you listen to Dr Deb Bennett, when she classifies type of horses, she uses also three main categories

Driving horses
riding horses
race horses.

We, as humans, of course use horses other then what they were bred to do.
Thus, drafts are ridden, light horses are driven, and race horses are ridden outside of a race track

Far as unknown, before registries were formed, that breeding often truly was 'unknown'
That is why, even now, on a gelding, with regular Appaloosa markings, you can get show papers, with parentage listed as 'unknown' Can't do that with a breeding intact animal
Often, before registries, horse s were just 'ranch horses', and ran together, with amres often exposed to more then one stud. If that foal cam eout solid, he was credited to the AQHA stud, and so on.
Appaloosa coat markings existed eons before any Appaloosa registry. Appaloosa marked horses were seen on ancient cave drawings, in art old Europe and in the Middle east.
Before registries, no great breeding records were kept, with amres often exposed to ore than one stud. Therefore, their exact breeding was truly unknown. Is that a hard fact to comprehend?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The picture of the Bayeuz Tapestry that Jaydee put up shows horses of bay, brown and chestnut but no greys so doubtful that Percherons were bred that early on. 

The picture also shows tall men on small horses. Considering that back then man's average height was 5'8" this dropped to 5' 6" in the 16/1700s. So taking it that these Warriors were of average heigh makes their chargers less than 15 hands.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> The difference is where did the breeder go from the introduction of the other breed? For instance it seems that those who were instrumental in breeding QH's bred for a calmer temperament out of the cold-bloods who were introduced. Thus that trait carried forward to subsequent generations even though the blood may have been thinned, the selected trait was retained. A calmer horse benefited the practical use of the animal in working cattle whereby not so much in the other breeds where perhaps speed, endurance, gait or strength were more pressing considerations. Just a thought.


 No. AQHA was formed on TB type horses that were sprinters, thus the name Quarter horse, as they excelled on the quarter mile type race.
Many of those horses had mustang influence, and the steel dust line, before registries were ever formed
Remount stallions were often used on mustang mares
If you read the Legends series on AQHA horses, it goes into how those foundation horses were picked
One of the first rule,was all colors are accepted, except those commonly designated as spotted or Pinto, appaloosa or albino
There was, however, a wide spectrum of opinion on type of horse, far as performance
The 'unknown horse taken into that registry, was largely that of western range bred horses. It was the same blood, therefore, that had been producing rodeo and ranch horses, and an occasional match runner
The 'known blood,included a few crosses to Arabians and the Morgan, but an over whelming majority were either TBs or descendants of those famed AQHA even before the registry.
Traveller
, Peter Mc Cue ,steeldust

The TBs often trace back quickly to easter runners in the Us, or even other countries
UNFORTUNATELY< most of the early breeding records were handwritten, and attempts to decipher some caused some confusion and error, which made it difficult and impossible in some cases, to get accurate records of ancestors
Anyway, if you wish to expound on the AQHA registry, the Legends series is readily available. I am up to book 8


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> They raced the Quarter horses didn't they - that's how they got the name - they were raced over a quarter of a mile distance, that was something that started as long ago as when the first settlers established themselves in Virginia in the early 1600's. I think the foundation stallion of the breed as we know it today was a TB bred to whatever stock they had so adding more TB blood into the breed would have improved their ability to win. The first quarter horses would have been less cattle horses and more leisure horses - their use with cattle wouldn't have come about until the settlers moved west and started setting up the big ranches there. The first farming communities along the east coast would have been more like the British small scale way of farming I imagine


Yes, far as the AQHA got it;s name. Those working ranch horses were often matched raced, as part of a sport. I have written some details in the former post, on the blood used to create the AQHA registry
Anyone really interested, can purchase the Legends series, which goes into great detail concerning founding horses, famous sires, and how the breed evolved, including going through the 'bulldog stage tot he Current AQHA horses
Actually , those early horses were used for ranch work, but leisure after hour activities included 'match racing, on bush tracks
Every ranch hand had some horse he felt could win money in a match race-much like Justin Morgan was raced at times, after working in the fields all day!


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I would agree Smilie except the goal from the "Foundation" expanded and QH breeders are not synonymous with the AQHA, though most use their registry for their horses.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Reiningcatsanddogs said:


> I would agree Smilie except the goal from the "Foundation" expanded and QH breeders are not synonymous with the AQHA, though most use their registry for their horses.


Yes, AQHA, like ApHC, has within that registry, both foundation breeders and those with the more 'modern lines.

THus, An AQHA HUS horse has a huge TB influence, as do running AQHA horses.
However, none of that changes as to how those registries were formed
So, I guess an Appendix AQHA horse, could be whatever half a hot blood, crossed with a warmblood would be. Guess we could call it a warm. hot blood, or a hot warm blood!
On the same token, mixing a warmblood with a draft, is not the same as mixing a draft with a TB. Should we call a Paint draft mix a 'lukewarm?
Then there is also the fact, that the breeders of established Warmbloods', like Trekenners, who have some draft way back when, kinda don't buy the simple mixing of a draft with a TB, and then calling that horse a Warmblood!
Once that capitol W is in place, most serious sport horse people envision an established Warmblood, seen in international show jumping and olympic level dressage, and not just a draft cross!
The kiss principle applies, far as that classification, which takes the broad registry into consideration, and not sub classifications!
THus,all drafts remain classified as cold bloods, esp since those registries have been closed for some time. If you wish to consider one draft breed 'hotter', then another, due to some hot blood influence, way back, then that is okay, but does not change as to what they are
Breeds are constantly evolving, according to breeding directions of that registry, which in turn, is guided by the majority of membership (assuming they vote )On top of that, family lines within those registries, develope a fixed type, according to discipline that type excels in. That is what selective breeding is, and these specialists create greater variety in body type, temperment, ect, then when a breed is bred/selected for one thing, as TBs
Thus, the foundation AQHA horse was a more all around working type, that has been selected over time, for individuals that excelled in certain disciplines, forming branches from that common beginning
Old time Morgans don't look like modern MorgAns
tHE fRIESIAN, is developing two distinct types, since they are being used more as riding horses, trying to make them better movers under saddle 
Examples go on and on, and the percheron today is not the heavy horse used by the Knights of old


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

So that is why Hoofpic should go to a Percheron breeder to train his Paint horse??


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

greentree said:


> So that is why Hoofpic should go to a Percheron breeder to train his Paint horse??


Makes sense


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Hoofpic said:


> Ive been learning about war horses over the past week or so and find it quite amusing how different they are in terms of their overall calmness and bravery compared to all the other breeds. They pretty much never spook or get terrified by anything.
> 
> Breaking in a war horse is much quicker and easier than any other breed. For the most part you just can hope right on them. I was told their feet only need to be done once a year, is that true?


Canadians were used during world war 1. Very hardy breed that can strive very well on very little food, making them easy keepers. Their feet need to be done like any other horse. They have excellent feet however and don't shoe my horses until I get into what I call mountain season, but even then I don't always shoe. It all depends on what I do.

I think general speaking "war horses" are just more hardy because they had to strive on very little care. Sadly the typical life of a horse in battle was 2-3 days. I think it's important to remember reality vs what Hollywood tries to represent.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Any horse was used during WW1! 

At the beginning of the war the British Army owned 25,000 horses. This was not considered enough and during the next two weeks a further 165,000 were recruited from Britain. Horses were also purchased from the USA, New Zealand, South Africa, India, Spain and Portugal. Horses aged three to twelve were trained as rapidly as possible by British soldiers called 'roughriders'. When they were ready the horses were formed into squadrons and sent to the Western Front.

The best horses were used by the cavalry. These horses had to be strong as the average cavalryman's weight was twelve stone and his equipment, saddle, ammunition, etc. usually weighed another nine stone. Men in the cavalry were instructed to take the weight off their horses as much as they could. This including dismounting and walking with their horses and unsaddling at every opportunity.

In 1914 the British Army only owned eighty motor vehicles. Therefore they were very dependent on horses for transporting good and supplies. This was especially true of the Western Front where conditions made it very difficult to use motor vehicles.

The British Army also purchased a large number of mules from the USA. The mule has amazing stamina and endured the terrible conditions in the front-line better than the horse. At the end of the war the army owned 213,300 mules.

Finding enough food for the horses and mules at the Western Front was a constant problem. The daily ration for a horse was 20 lbs of grain a day. This was nearly 25% below what a horse would be fed in Britain. The horses were always hungry and where often seen trying to eat wagon wheels. When grain was in short supply, the army fed their horses and mules on sawdust cake.





Eight million horses and countless mules and donkeys died in the First World War. They were used to transport ammunition and supplies to the front and many died, not only from the horrors of shellfire but also in terrible weather and appalling conditions. Mules were found to have tremendous stamina in extreme climates and over the most difficult terrain, serving courageously in the freezing mud on the Western Front and later at Monte Cassino in World War II. Equally they toiled unflinchingly in the oppressive heat of Burma, Eritrea and Tunisia. There are many inspiring and often tragic stories of the great devotion and loyalty shown between horses, mules and donkeys and their masters during some of the bloodiest conflicts of the 20th century.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

My grt uncle started out in WW1 on an 16.2 army horse that was Irish Draft x TB. By the end of that war and many mounts later he was riding a 14.2 Arabian

Producing a Warmblood as in the type of horse bred in Europe is not quite as simple as just crossing a draft horse with an Arabian or TB - hundreds of years of selective breeding has gone into what's been achieved there, you really aren't going to get the something that performs like a top WB simply by crossing a shire with a racehorse
The Trakehner is a result of crossing small sturdy cob like horses native to East Prussia with carefully selected English TB's and Arabians but was started in the early 1700's and not just an overnight thing
Now if you want to put the War Horse label on something - they *were* originally bred to be cavalry horses by King Friedrich Wilhelm I who wanted an intelligent good looking horse that was a sort of status symbol but was also low maintenance, tough and would stay sound under the worst conditions


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> My grt uncle started out in WW1 on an 16.2 army horse that was Irish Draft x TB. By the end of that war and many mounts later he was riding a 14.2 Arabian
> 
> Producing a Warmblood as in the type of horse bred in Europe is not quite as simple as just crossing a draft horse with an Arabian or TB - hundreds of years of selective breeding has gone into what's been achieved there, you really aren't going to get the something that performs like a top WB simply by crossing a shire with a racehorse
> The Trakehner is a result of crossing small sturdy cob like horses native to East Prussia with carefully selected English TB's and Arabians but was started in the early 1700's and not just an overnight thing
> Now if you want to put the War Horse label on something - they *were* originally bred to be cavalry horses by King Friedrich Wilhelm I who wanted an intelligent good looking horse that was a sort of status symbol but was also low maintenance, tough and would stay sound under the worst conditions


Thanks, Jaydee, concerning that draft X TB does not a WARMBLOOD make, a point i constantly bring up! 
It is unfortunate that the term "Warmblood' , has been applied to those horse selectively bred for many generations, to produce a horse that excels in the Sport horse disciplines, with some cold blood way back in the pedigree, but certainly not up close, and esp not one direct parent!
That causes so many less informed people, to think if you breed a hot blood (TB or Arabian ) to a cold blood (draft ), the resulting offspring is a Warmblood, synonymous with those established breeds in the Sport horse industry!
One could then produce some Warmbloods,pretty cheaply, just breeding a shire, Percheron or clydesdale to some TBs or OTTBS !
It becomes even more ludicrous, when a warmblood type riding horse is crossed with a draft, and called a warmblood-like a stock horse X a draft

Far as 'bravery', many of those horses , used in war had no choice, as they were taught to obey, by whatever means, to over come their natural flight instinct, and charge into battle.
Those light cavalry horses, used once gun powder was invented, facing cannon fire, had to have even more enforced obedience, then horses facing swords ever did!
The idea that horses used in war, did so out of sheer bravery, is utter nonsense ! They did so, same as their riders, out of military type obedience and training


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

greentree said:


> So that is why Hoofpic should go to a Percheron breeder to train his Paint horse??


Where did that idea come from?
You take a horse to a trainer that is good at producing the type of horse you wish to ride, and where you wish to ride that horse.
Is Hoofpick interested in jousting?
If you want me to be really honest, I don't get the desire to ride draft horses in the first place. I grew up, having only draft horses (Percherons) to ride, but constantly longed for a saddle horse


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Welllll, that was what he SAID.......he had decided not to hire this trainer. It took reading between the lines to get that (he was looking for a trainer) out of the first few posts.....

You just got a little too caught up in the information-fest about war bloods to see it!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

We've sort of strayed off the main track and taken some scenic routes and rambled quite a bit Greentree but its been interesting!!!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> We've sort of strayed off the main track and taken some scenic routes and rambled quite a bit Greentree but its been interesting!!!


Ditto!
That is often how these discussions go, where people have a lot of interest and input!
The thread on Collection versus natural horse sure went way beyond the simple original question- it is the nature of the beast!


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## unclearthur (Feb 25, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> There are only two cavalry regiments in the UK forces nowadays, the Household Cavalry and the Kings Troop, the former do the parades around Buckingham palace, the horses in this regiment are always black, they have a coloured Drum Horse and the buglers ride greys.
> 
> The Kings Troop ride bays and in their musical rides a team of six pull gum carriages.
> 
> When you see em perform you realise what training goes into them and most are fairly bomb proof!


 Almost right!

The two cavalry regiments are the Lifeguards, and the Blues & Royals. They are brigaded together to form the Household Cavalry and nowadays both mix ridden parade duties with mechanised armoured reconnaissance in combat zones.

The Kings Troop belong to the Royal Horse Artillery, so aren't cavalry in the strictest sense. They're purely ceremonial nowadays.

Great to see all of them - much more exciting than a row of tanks!


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I stand corrected!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Rather see a tank blown up, then a horse, LOL!


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Ditto!
> That is often how these discussions go, where people have a lot of interest and input!
> The thread on Collection versus natural horse sure went way beyond the simple original question- it is the nature of the beast!


It has been interesting....but it is kind of rude to be critical about answering the OP's question.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

Ya Ill forsure not be contacting this lady again, i wont even go spectate her clinic in 2 weeks.

The girl who ive been talking to said this to me this morning.

"Funny thing I was coming in here this morning to tell you that I heard some very serious, questionable things about Lacey from a friend that knew of her. If I was you I would steer clear, very clear. I really don't get into the politics, do not wish to elaborate and add to the gossip. There are usually two sides to every story but in this case, leave me out of any conversation and I would stay away and keep her far away from your horse and belongings."

Thank you to all who suggested I run away from this lady.


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## Hoofpic (Aug 23, 2015)

I have a question.

Is it normal for trainers to have lessons and coaching by other trainers?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Anyone can benefit from lessons. Even top competitors will have someone they can defer to


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

We NEVER stop honing our skills. NEVER. EVER.


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## Cheri666 (Jan 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Cold blooded horses were ridden into war, when knights wore heavy amour, for obvious reasons.
> These horses were out maneuvered by the lighter horses, as time progressed, and agility and quickness replaced weight carrying ability, so that the 'modern war horse was a light horse, used in cavalry charges, ect


Aaaaactually, armor wasn't as heavy as you think, and as far as they knew there was no such thing as cold blooded. There were just 'their horses'. No breeds existed until about the 1500, except for Arabians, and that was oral tradition. You are thinking of parade armor, which was shiny and scrolly and very pretty, worn by kings and other royalty. Those guys were the ones who got lifted onto their horses. Not because of weight of the armor, but because of the lack of flexibility, and the, most likely, portly weight of the king, xD. I've seen guys in full plate German jousting armor swing up onto their horse. It's a lot more flexible than parade armor, too. The drafts we are familiar with are a product of the Industrial Age. They were not ridden by knights. 

And the reason they were out maneuvered was two fold. First, heat. Europeans had no clue how hot the Middle East was, and their horses in their caparison overheated. They fixed that by hauling the quilts off them. And second, while Europeans rode stallions, because, more manly, Near and Middle Easterners rode mares. And ran circles around all those stallions. The medieval war horse looked a lot like a QH x TB cross, and was from 14.3 to 16,2 hh, according to horse graves and horse armor. But possibly a little hairier, xD


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Very old thread so closing


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