# Clipping completely changes horse's color! Black to dun/buckskin??



## Chiilaa

Yes. He is brown. Not black that fades - black fades along the top of the body first, not in the indicator areas for brown - muzzle, flank, eye etc. Clipping can dramatically change the appearance of a horse. That's why we never decide what colour they are from a clipped photo.


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## bagof4grapes

This is a brown horse:









Browns are easy to tell from blacks because they have that very easy-to-spot brown area above their muzzles. My horse's face is black. Occasionally when he's very faded he gets a few lighter spots on his face but never to this degree.

EDIT: I thought I'd add that another color possibility is smoky black. Many of them look like true blacks but show funny reddish or gold-ish spots.


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## Chiilaa

That horse is also brown. Your horse is too. Black horses don't fade in the areas your horse has until they have faded in other areas. It's simple really - the sun has longer to "touch" the top of the horse than it does the sides. Fading starts along the topline and works downward. It does not start in the soft points.

They also clip differently. This horse is black. The difference is fairly clear.


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## bagof4grapes

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't think my horse is black. I also very much doubt he is brown because of the reasons I already stated. I've watched him go in and out of seasons and change colors many times over the past seven years. My first horse, a QH mare, was a true seal brown. I know what seal browns look like. My current horse, the Mustang in the photos above, has never looked like her.


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## bagof4grapes

Here is what a clipped seal brown horse looks like:








And another:









Neither of them come even close to the bright gold under my horse's coat.

He's neither a brown nor a black.


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## Chiilaa

Read the first line of your first post and tell me why I assumed you think your horse is black before you suggest I am putting words in your mouth please. 

As far as brown, it is just like other colours in that there is a lot of natural variation in the shades of various horses. Just because a horse is a different shade to the one you knew of does not mean it is not the same colour.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagof4grapes

I didn't think I'd have to spell it out in black and white but maybe I should have. At one point in time, yes, I thought he was black or seal brown. But I certainly think I made it quite clear that I no longer think that.

Now, can we please move on from the pointless black/seal brown thing? I want other suggestions. I'm curious to see if anyone else has ever had a horse that clipped to this color from almost black.


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## NdAppy

Your horse is not dun. He is a brown. I am with Chiilaa on that one. Not every horse will clip to the exact same shade. Clipping should never be used to determine a horse's color.

BTW color testing is not a blood test. You pull hairs and they test the roots/DNA testing for markers and genes.


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## Chiilaa

bagof4grapes said:


> I want other suggestions.


Then you might need to ask elsewhere. Here, we deal with fact and not fancy. If you wanted to be lied to, then say so. Your horse is brown. That's a simple fact. There is NO other indicator of any other possible colour. It is what it is. There is nothing wrong with brown.


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## Tryst

Deleted


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## Bridgertrot

I agree with the others that he is brown. We have a mustang boarded at our place who has the typical brown muzzle and flank markings. He is started to gain some golden coloring that looks exactly like the picture of the flank you posted. Though his are showing up in his girth area as dapples.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bagof4grapes

My teacher from years ago, a world-renowned horsewoman who worked especially with Spanish Mustangs and bred horses of varying combinations of the dun and cream gene was the first person to tell me that he likely has the dun gene.

I will believe her, someone who has witnessed my horse in person and who has decades of experience in such a thing, before I believe a bunch of strangers over the internet. My mind has been made up over the matter and is not being changed.

I want to know if anyone knows of any other horses who clip to such a color.

If you're not going to help me with that, please leave.


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## texasgal

bagof4grapes - Your horse is beautiful.

You've got the color experts telling you he is brown. He's brown.

Heck, if these girls told me my horse was purple, only expressing bay ... I'd probably believe them!

"Brown" has never been one of my favorite words to describe a horse color ... but it IS one of my favorite colors!


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## Bridgertrot

"Do blacks and browns normally clip to that color??"

That statement infers that you believe your horse is either a brown or black. The color experts have advised you that he is brown. Why did you even make a post regarding this if you "know" the horse is dun? He's obviously not. 

Either way, dont post questions and get annoyed when you get answers you don't want to hear. Welcome to forums.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

bagof4grapes said:


> My teacher from years ago, a world-renowned horsewoman who worked especially with Spanish Mustangs and bred horses of varying combinations of the dun and cream gene was the first person to tell me that he likely has the dun gene.
> 
> I will believe her, someone who has witnessed my horse in person and who has decades of experience in such a thing, before I believe a bunch of strangers over the internet. My mind has been made up over the matter and is not being changed.
> 
> I want to know if anyone knows of any other horses who clip to such a color.
> 
> If you're not going to help me with that, please leave.


Then why the heck did you ASK people about it, if you've already decided your horse is some speshul, magickal color? :-x

As for your 'I only want people who AGREE with me to post' sentence, it's a public board, dearie. You don't get to relegate who can and can't post on your threads. :?

Your horse is _brown_. You can believe what you want, but STOP ASKING if you don't want to hear the answers!


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## Bridgertrot

bagof4grapes said:


> I will believe her, someone who has witnessed my horse in person and who has decades of experience in such a thing, before I believe a bunch of strangers over the internet.


BTW you are _absolutely right!_ I bet all these people on the forum have zero horse experience, know nothing about them, and are all fat greasy old men sent here to misinform everyone about horse coloring.


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## Speed Racer

Bridgertrot said:


> I bet all these people on the forum have zero horse experience, know nothing about them, and are all fat greasy old men sent here to misinform everyone about horse coloring.


Dang! I haz been found out!!!! :rofl:


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## texasgal

bagof4grapes - Just something else to think about. Decades ago I think it was commonly believed that brown or seal brown horses were black with a "mealy" or "dun" gene. Recent genetics have proved that is not the case. (Ya'll correct me if I'm wrong..)

So your friend could be "right" in that decades ago that is what was believed. Color genetics are much more understood now than then. 

imo


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## WalnutPixie

bagof4grapes, if your horse had the dun gene, wouldn't he be a grulla? Are you arguing that he is a very minimally expressed grulla? 

I have an essay to write and feel the need to procrastinate so I thought that perhaps I could help explain a few of these colors. I found all of these pictures through Google and am using them without permission, of course. links to where they came from below the pictures.
(I have my fingers crossed that Chiilla wont tell me I've messed the colors up too badly xD )

This is a black horse. Note that the muzzle and flanks are consistently as dark as the rest of the body.








(The Horse Guide: Black Horse Color)

This is a black horse that has faded in the sunlight.








(http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/black.html)

Here's a brown/seal brown horse. Note how the muzzle and flank are conspicuously lighter than the rest of the body. Horses of this color can be a dark black with the exception of the mealy points.








(http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/sealbrown.html)

Here's a lighter or perhaps sun bleached seal brown horse. I couldn't find a very good example of this one but I know some of the forum members have brown horses that bleach like crazy in the summer. 








(Seal brown (horse) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Here's a black horse with a dun gene (aka a grulla horse.) This is the color that you are saying your horse is?








(horse colors)

For reference, a horse that I'm pretty sure is a darker grulla. See how the body color is still more of a silver shade than brown?








(this image found on the horse forum through Google. I can't find out where it came from originally)

Here's a horse that, according to the website, is a brown based dun (aka a seal brown horse with the dun gene.) They apparently look a lot like a bay based dun.








(Dun Central Station - Brown/Bay Dun Colors & Markings)

I suppose that you could argue that your horse is black with one copy of the creme gene (smokey black.) These horses are a dark choclate color but do not have any mealy points. I should note that a seal brown horse with one copy of the cream gene looks like a dark buckskin.








(Smoky black - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


Keeping these pictures in mind, do you see why everyone has come to the conclusion that your horse is a seal brown? I'm not trying to force my opinion or anything. I just thought that being able to see for yourself what the various colors in question look like would help you to understand what everyone is talking about.

I don't know very much about what horses look like when they're clipped except that you can expect them to turn bizarre and entertaining colors. What a horse looks like when it's clipped can vary tremendously even amongst horses of the same color. The first rule of equine color genetics is that you can never tell the true color of a horse when it's clipped.

It's certainly not a bad thing that your horse is brown. That's one of my favorite colors. It's even cooler that he turns such a neat red color when he's clipped. Think about it: you could have a black horse in the spring/fall, a brown horse in the summer, and a red horse in the winter!


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## Bridgertrot

I know this is a crappy picture, because my phone lense is scratched on one side :| but it's the horse I was referring to and a good comparison of black and brown. LOL

All three of these are branded mustangs. The "dead" (lol) one and the one on the left are both brown geldings (notice the muzzles and flanks). The filly on the right is black. The dead one is the one who currently has the golden dapples coming in on his girth.










The one on the ground is odd because he has the mane of a curly horse LOL

Also your horses dorsal stripe might just be counter shading.


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## Arksly

My mare is brown, who almost looks black in the spring. But in the summer she gets SO light that she had a golden/buckskinish color. I hardly even recognized her. I'd say your horse is brown. I love brown horses because pretty much every season you have a horse with a different color.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palominolover

Your horse is NOT a dun. There's is a horse at my barn that clips to the EXACT same colour and he is most definitely a brown horse. I believe he has been colour tested as a brown as well .


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## palominolover

Here is a bay horse who has also been clipped down to that colour.


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## MelissaAnn

Well, if he was a dun but his top coat was too dark to express it...I wonder if giving him a body clip would show his leg barring and dorsal stripe? 

I find color genetics fascinating, but he is his color no matter what it's called! A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet! And his color is stunning, no matter what it's called. I love his golden tones!


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## maura

I apologize if it has been mentioned previously in this thread; but fyi, ALL horses except greys clip out to a different color at certain times of year depending on the length of coat, because the pigment in the hair shaft concentrates at the end of the hair shaft as it grows. 

So black horses usually clip out to a mousy matte grey, bays clip out to a weird gun metal grey, chestnuts clip out to a weird pale orange, etc. 

If you see a clipped horse that's retained vestiges of it's original color, it's because the owners clip frequently to minimize the color change, or that the timed the clip right as fresh coat was coming in. 

So I'm not really sure the color of a recently clipped horse is a reliable indicator. New fresh coat growing in, before it can be sun bleached, might be a better indicator. 

(The exception to this is foal coats - we used to clip patches of foal coat in order to determine actual base coat color for registrations.)

My favorite story about this is once I had a really cute large children's pony, mostly Welsh, for sale that was true black with some chrome. Gorgeous and flashy, looked like he was wearing a tuxedo. Had a 4" long Welsh pony coat. 

Showed him to first time buyers, and when the came for a second look, I told them I was very glad they had come back, that I had clipped the pony and he no longer looked like a stuffed animal, you could now actaully see his confo. 

I pulled him out of the stall, this gorgeous, slick, typey thing, but definitely matte dark grey, not black; and they looked at me like I was they worst crook on the planet and said "YOU MEAN THAT WASN'T HIS REAL COLOR?????"

In his case, yes, black WAS his real color.

But I will never forget the look on their faces because they thought I was playing some heinious trick on them.


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