# Sabino TWH and ??



## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

I have recently gotten a TWH mare and am interested get get opinions from the experts on here coloring. She is obviously sabino, but I don't know what her original coloring might be. On her papers it says sorrel with grey modifier....umm I'm thinking that's incorrect. The previous owner called her a grey roan and based on a picture of her from last summer she has darkened with her winter coat, which I know is normal, and it also makes her sabino markings more obvious. 


Excuse how dirty she is, we put her in the stall when she first arrived and she raised total he** in there and worked up a big sweat. This was before I had brushed her out.



























This is the picture from last summer


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Honestly, she looks grey with sabino.
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## Tryst (Feb 8, 2012)

Short of testing her you will not be able to know her base for sure, as gray changes it, usually darkens it up a lot in the graying process so that the original base color is not recognizable. She may well have been chestnut before she went gray.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

How old is she? Grey seems reasonable and I don't see why she couldn't be sorrel with grey.


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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

She is 7, will be 8 in June


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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

So is it likely she will end up turning white?


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Where did the sorrel come from? She looks black based. 

I'm between black sabino and grey sabino. You'll have to wait and find out, or do a dna test on her. I have seen black sabinos like this. The summer picture she is very grey looking though.

If she is grey, she will eventually be "white"
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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

Also, wouldn't the sorrel coloring still show through?


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

EmsTNWalkers said:


> Also, wouldn't the sorrel coloring still show through?


The mane and tail are black. Sorrels that grey out won't turn their mane and tail black. (Please someone correct me if I'm wrong) so I'm thinking she was black based...not sorrel? She doesn't show any indication of red.
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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

Right, that's what I was thinking. If you look at the hairs closely they look blackish, not red/chestnut. Her registration papers have her listed as sorrel, so that's where that came from. However, it wouldn't be the first time info was recorded wrong!


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Correct, registration papers are screwed up frequently when it comes to color. Just because the box is checked "sorrel" doesn't mean it's true. 
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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

If she is grey (which she could be a dark grey at that age) then yes she will lighten as she ages.

I don't think her being black or something and having the sabino making her look grey like that is unrealistic.

I like to think the people who saw her as a baby would know lol, but obviously it wouldn't be the first time! Grey will skew the base color and make it look like something it's not. They tend to get darker before they get lighter.


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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

Her sire was a black sabino Pushers Fine Art Tennessee Walking Horse
and her dam a chestnut (there's no pic of her on all breed)


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Ninja'd. Lol

So it is possible she is black-based. Especially if her sire was homozygous black, which it looks like he might be.

Do you have any idea what the dam's sire and dam were listed as?
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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Then my guess is she is black with sabino and the papers are wrong. No way she can be grey if those are the actual colors and she's obviously not chestnut or bay, so black it is. Seems more likely imo.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Yogiwick said:


> If she is grey (which she could be a dark grey at that age) then yes she will lighten as she ages.
> j
> I don't think her being black or something and having the sabino making her look grey like that is unrealistic.
> 
> I like to think the people who saw her as a baby would know lol, but obviously it wouldn't be the first time! Grey will skew the base color and make it look like something it's not. They tend to get darker before they get lighter.


Grey does indeed do funky things. And one size doesn't fit all when it comes to modifiers.
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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

How funny Drafty, we posted that at the same time!

Top side -sire- grandsire - WGC The Pusher CG - blue roan (MY ALL TIME FAVORITE STALLION!!
granddam (HAHA had to) - Magic Robbie Lee - black

Bottom side - dam - grandsire - Pride's Ultra Threat - black
dam - Sparkiling Magic H.A.F - Chestnut


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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

Grandsire, The Pusher


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Black sabino


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Based on her ancestry, she is most likely black-based with extensive sabino.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

It's possible thought that her dam had grey...modifiers aren't listed


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

EmsTNWalkers said:


> It's possible thought that her dam had grey...modifiers aren't listed


Neither of her dam's parents were grey, so grey is not a possibility for the dam. Grey is a simple dominant. If it is present, it will express. In order for it to be present, at least one parent must be grey. With the information given, it is not possible for your mare or her dam to be grey.
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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

Right but what I'm saying is what if the dam WAS grey? Yet she was registered as chestnut as it was the base color, and generally when foals/colts/fillies....whatever...are registered they are young and the grey may not have expressed yet. I can see the sire wasn't grey as he has a picture. He was a black sabino.


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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

There's no pics of the Dam's dam either.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

But neither of the dam's parents were grey, so the dam couldn't be. A good breeder can tell if a foal is going to be grey when it's born. So unless the dam's breeders were complete novices to the horse world, it's likely there is no grey in her lines. 

Generally, when a grey horse is registered, it is registered as grey, not as the base color with grey modifier. 

A foal that is going to go grey will generally be a very "adult" color when it is born, not the washed-out coloring that is typically associated with foals.
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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

It's unlikely that the horse her dam and one or both of her grandparents were all misregistered. I'm going with just your girl


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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

No I don't mean misregistered...I mean that the modifier not being listed.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

If grey is there as a modifier, it shows. You can't have a horse that "carries" grey without displaying it as well.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I guess I'm not following you as listed vs registered.

Are you talking about listed on all breed? I find it much more likely that they would have grey than chestnut if the mare was grey. She's only going to look chestnut for the first year of her life or so, then will look grey. Who knows, it's possible but seems unlikely.


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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

No, what I'm saying is if the dam, dam's parent's, etc were registered with TWBEA at a young age before the grey showed. Most of the horses that come from that area are resistered as weanlings to be sold at the Celebration sale in the fall. Not to mention people from that area half the time have no clue and still use terms like "Carmella" and other similar color inaccuracies. 

I think I'll just have her tested and find out for sure. It's all out of curiosity, I don't intend to breed her or anything.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Well that would be misregistered then.. I guess the confusion is I consider that misregistered and you are considering it correct since the horse is still chestnut (or whatever) under the grey. I don't think that counts really, but we are on the same page lol. As said, a good breeder will be 99% on registering color regardless of the horses age but no guarantee.

Post the results. I am going with black sabino. I'll be interested to see


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## EmsTNWalkers (Mar 10, 2013)

I just called the breed registry....they are so clueless! She tried to tell me the sire is NOT a sabino because he only has 4 white stockings, a blaze, and a white patch on the side. *face palm* They seriously have no idea what they are talking about. Also, she told me that they do not consider grey a color, and the horse would be recorded as it's original color as well as they did not record modifiers until recently. So basically....who knows! She said I can send in pictures and a written statement and pay to have the color changed in the registry. Back to square one lol.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Haha, don't ask 99% of registries color questions.

So I guess there is a chance she is grey (that is sooo outdated that they don't do grey, EVERYONE (to my knowledge ) does grey! Most record grey and NOT the base color. So is a buckskin a bay??

Anyways, just color test if you care haha. I would test for grey and if she does have it then you can test for black/red and agouti, if not she's black.


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## Shirhall (Mar 10, 2014)

*black sabino roan walker*

your mare appears to be a black sabino roan, only testing will tell you for sure. Generally roans have more white hair in winter months.. I have had sabino roan foxtrotters and walkers.


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