# I've solved the raven water problem! *UPDATE *



## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

These birds have been nesting on our property for years. We've saved their kids from the dogs numerous times, and lived with the fledglings occupying our space. I don't mind that, not a big deal to grab some leather gloves and pick up a hissing bird and move it. I can hose off patio furniture, steps & railings of their droppings, well more like splash, but the worst was how they crapped in the horses' water tank and left guts & bones in it. I decided to only fill the tank 1/2 way, sick of wasting water, and heavy to dump, inconvenient to unscrew the drain. I started this a few weeks ago, and much to my utter delight, ravens want a full tank, they haven't fouled it once. Just for that, I will continue to rescue any fledgling that is on the ground from my dogs. Before this, I was going to let the dogs do what they do, kill vermin & whatever. They can stick to rats & mice.Video of my raven family at feeding time and my ACD with his bush rat.


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## dogpatch (Dec 26, 2017)

Brilliant!


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

How good.  Excellent!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

What exactly is that 'bush rat' your dog has Wares? Just with that brushy tail, it's not a regular black or brown rat - is it a native?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh & hey @dogpatch I was talking to a client about hoof boots for driving - I'd like to chat with you about it, but can't seem to message you directly - can you please try to message me? Sorry for the hyjack Wares...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Bet they're wishing for raven plagues & owl plagues up in NSW at the mo - mouse plague that's totally cleaned out & ruined farms ATM.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

That 'rat' looks like a Bushytailed pack rat. I used to have a pet pack rat. They are not actually rats (Rattus), they are Neotoma. They don't have two rows of teats like a rattus or a dog, they have a 4 teat udder like a cow. 

Rattus ( Black Roof Rat and the Norway rat) are not native outside of Europe. People accidently brought them to other continents. Pack Rats, there are several species, are also known as trade rats. They like shiny objects and take them back to their nest, called a midden, which is a pile of sticks you find in the woods. Sometimes they might trade a bottle cap for a diamond ring.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

Boy I wish I had a pet raven (illegal in the US because they are a native bird). I used to have a crossbred raven, bred from a native raven crossed with an African variety so it was legal. I have had a total of 7 pet crows. That is because they were never caged so it was 'legal'. It was from a 3 year study I did on crows. The hens lay eggs while they are sitting- every other day. So they hatch in succession. In a good year there is enough food for all to survive. In poor years only the oldest nestlings survive. Once I found this out I would help myself to these surplus babies. I used to ride my horse through the woods and pastures in the company of crows. They would ride perched on her neck or rump and fly down and catch grasshoppers. Corvids are also good mimics and learn human words and phrases.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Yes, that is what we call them, bushy tailed packrats. We have the ones with no hair on their tails too. They steal stuff like small tools from the barn and leave pine cones or sticks for a trade off, lol. You know when you have a packrat in your barn the second you walk in, stinks! And they leave droppings over every flat surface. 
Taking any animal out of the wild is seriously illegal here, ewww anyways, ravens stink and those rats really stink.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Wow, Arago & Wares, very interesting! Packrats sound very cute - I'd gladly accept a pinecone - what goes thru their head that they see fit to 'trade' I wonder - wouldn't have thought they could think like that... like a... crow or human something. And yeah Arago, corvidae are very smart & I'd love to have some tame ones. When I was a kid we had resident magpies(Aussie pied crows) that were pretty tame, would come in the house... & had trained us well to feed them.

Interesting US laws about keeping natives, as it seems you Americans are allowed to make pets out of just about any other animal you see fit. I'm guessing Canada isn't so free & easy about that Wares? I discovered that most non-native 'exotic' animals here aren't allowed to be kept, but you can get a license & permit to keep natives - when my daughter asked if she could have a tarantula... I could almost stand the thought of one of those fluffy big 'salmon toed' ones or something. But found they were illegal here & we'd have to settle for an Aussie one... which look like overgrown Funnelwebs - NOT nice at all - I drew the line. She ended up with pythons instead.

I learned something new about crows/ravens last night too, that they're often known as Wolfbirds in the States, closely associated with wolf packs, sharing food with them & even playing with the pups & youngsters & that a raven will often form a close bond with a specific wolf in the pack...


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

You wouldn't think they are cute once you see what they do to a barn, their urine stains the walls and their feces are everywhere and it's a large amount , swept and shoveled several pounds out of the barn loft.
It's rare that conservation hands out permits, unless you are a registered sanctuary or rehab. A friend's hubby saw a mother deer & one of her newborn fawn killed on a logging road, other fawn was okay. Another logging truck driver called the CO, he was told to leave it alone and let nature take its course or he would be fined and maybe vehicle confiscated. Friend's hubby didn't make call so no number on record, he took the fawn. My friend raises sheep and had lamb colostrum, gave that and bottle fed her. She grew big and lived in their house secretly but they have a large ranch. Their friends would freak out when they knocked on the door, deer & dogs would run up. I have a pic somewhere with this deer & my friend in bed, can't find it on this phone. Eventually she left with the other deer that hang around, there is tons of them everywhere. She never returned, either hit on the highway or died in the forest fire that ravaged that area less than a year later. Friend's place was the only thing saved, thanks to their own efforts.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh I'm sure they're still cute, but I know, I know, I reckon ornary rats & mice are cute too, but they're still stinky, messy pests.

Yeah, over here, deer are feral pests & a neighbour is a hunter - can only imagine he must have shot a young fawn's mother, because a baby sambar appeared in their yard a few months back. She's grown up with the dogs, horses & sheep & loves to run up & down the fence with my dogs when we walk past - I'm sure she'd bark if she could!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

It doesn't surprise me that filling the tank only 1/2 way fixed the problem because it's been my observation that they like to dunk their food. So if you have it low enough they can't reach in and dunk their food. We have a bird bath and (wild) ravens......the other day I gave my chickens some stale bread and a few minutes later I looked out the window and the raven had stolen some and was dunking it in the bird bath. Easier to swallow I suppose!

For YEARS I had no idea they could talk, until I stumbled upon some videos on You-tube and I was amazed at how human their voices can be. More human-sounding than parrots, in my opinion! Ever since then I wish our ravens would talk. Sometimes I try talking to them, "hello," "Hi" and such, but they just fly away. I would love it if I had one that would mimic me, I would gladly feed it!

I did learn a down-side to the ravens however. They will kill baby chickens. I never knew that, and for years never had a problem, then one year I had baby chicks in a small pen out in the yard and a raven dropped into the pen and killed one. So I don't like that about them......but I know better now. If I get baby chicks again I will have a top on the pen. Otherwise, I think ravens are pretty cool!

I think we also have crows.......smaller and flock together. But at the moment I have only been seeing ravens. They are big, as big as a good-sized rooster, and are usually seen single or in pairs. But there was a time we had flocks of crows. I don't know if they come and go seasonally or what.

I'm in Arizona, and we aren't allowed to keep them as pets either. Pretty much any wildlife is illegal as far as I know. Except maybe some types of frogs and salamanders. Like Tiger Salamanders are legal, because they sell them as fish bait. They are also native. They make good little pets and can live around 10 years.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

They killed the neighbors' doves, he had someone looking after his place when he went on vacation a few years ago. I found feathers, small bones, guts & beaks in the trough, I knew it was Tom's beloved doves. I texted his caretaker, told him I knew he forgot to lock in the doves and I have the remnants here. Makes me sad, Tom, my neighbor, had terminal cancer, he loved his birds, he had peacocks, doves and various pheasants.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^Yeah & when they peck the eyes from lambs as they're being born, not nice either. But they're just doing what comes naturally, gotta eat, like the rest of us. Trailhorse, we have lost many chicks to Currawongs - a crowlike(but not corvidae) bird, but we have also lost grown chickens to... some large grey bird - I sus a Harrier hawk, only ever seen it flying away at a distance. Found chickens with their heads ripped off & guts pulled out their neck! 

& then there are cats & foxes. Grew up with pet cats, love them. But they're just too good hunters for me to be comfortable keeping one around here, as I don't think it's fair to keep them caged. Lost a few chooks to feral(& sus neighbour's) cats too. Foxes are gorgeous too(well except the mangy ones), but do a lot of damage.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

I also studied the language of crows. They have calls they make in a certain situation. It is not like a word language or anything like that. They are expressing an emotion, such as feed me or this is our land. Predator on the ground or predator in the air. The central Texas crows had 18 calls. I would be dressed in camouflage, branches and bushes, crawl to the edge of clearings without being seen (very difficult) and write down the sound and what they did next.

So, I was president of the Audubon Society. I took a tame crow to a meeting and had mimiographed all the calls and passed them out to the members. We repeated and practiced the calls, it was hilarious. And here I was with a tame crow on my shoulder that was turning the lights on and off by pulling a string. Oh, she got into the refreshments to. She would bow up her neck, bend carefully to pronounce in a husky whisper Awful Bird. Sometimes they returned home with laundry they had taken from people's clothes lines. When the crows became teenagers they flew away with the wild crows.

In my lifetime I have seen an amasing thing. When I was a child crows used to live out in the countryside and ravens lived in the wilderness. Now, crows have moved into cities and towns and ravens live in the countryside. I have even seen some ravens living in a couple of cities in Arizona. Crows like to pillage garbage bags in the back of people's trucks. A garbage sack is like a piñata to a crow.

Here is my packrat, a Neotoma. I would give her cheap costume jewelry. Packrats do not drink water. You have to give them shoots and fruit. They will die of thirst next to a water dish.










Now I have a domestic rat. Domestic rats are very smart and tame like a little dog.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

^What's your theory, do you suppose crows & ravens have 'swapped sides' as far as country v's city Arago? Me, I'm not so well versed as to the difference between crow species - ravens are a type of crow, yeah?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Seems to fit the convo...


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

Ravens are the largest birds of the Corvidae family. The farther north you go the bigger they get. Alaskan and north Canadian ravens can be two feet tall. Next in size are the Crows. European Jackdaws are a bit smaller. Then the Magpies of the world and Jays, the smallest. Grey Jays known as Camp robbers are very enjoyable to have a piknik with. They swoop and snatch food from people's forks just before it reaches their mouth. I have raised Scrub jays and Blue jays jays because I was a licensed wildlife rehaber. Nutcracker birds are a grey corvid with black wings found in the mountains of western north America. Corvids are monogamous, with a mating pair staying together their whole lives.

This morning I saw two ravens take a guinea hen carcass from an aggressive Turkey vulture. One came up behind the larger strong bird and pecked it on the back. The vulture chased it's assailant then the other raven grabbed the carcass and both flew off.

I think what happened with the crows moving to town is people stopped persecuting them. The pickings are much better and life is easier in towns. Their predators are few there. This left the countryside relatively empty and the ravens moved in. Ravens persecute crows and chase them back to town.

The tree years I was studying crows I would climb into their nest trees, count eggs, how many hatched, how many fledged and banded the young with colored poultry leg bands so I could tell them apart. Sure enough, there was #19. That was Corvid19


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Very interesting Arago, thanks for the info. But... 2' tall??!! Caused me to say a word I'm not allowed here. Blimey they're big! We only have 'Little Ravens' in Aus, which are the same size as crows, but I've heard someone argue there are no true ravens here tho. Didn't know Jays were corvidae - thought they were little song birds or something. I know the European 'magpies' are smaller & quite different to ours - which aren't much smaller than crows. We also have a 'Butcher Bird', which I'm sure is a corvid too - looks like a smaller, stockier magpie, tho some are grey & black instead of black & white.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

All animal species, if you notice, are larger the further north you go toward the Arctic (or Antarctic I guess). Bears are larger, moose are larger, wolves and coyotes are larger and ravens are larger maybe because having more body mass helps them keep warm.
When I first saw the size of these Alaskan ravens on nature shows I could not believe my eyes. Having a large mass might have also helped the dinosaurs keep warmer during the night.

Now I am farther north in Oregon. It is pretty darn cool here. Its almost June and past noon and it's 62 F outside. I notice the ravens are larger here than the dryland ravens of west Texas. tag based on what is being viewed. We filter the output of wp_title() a bit - see agriflex_filter_wp_title() in functions.php. --> <title> CHIHUAHUAN RAVEN | The Texas Breeding Bird Atlas

Also, consider the small refined Arabian and Barb horses that evolved (evolution is how God creates IMO) in the warm deserts and the massive Forest horse that evolved in the colder areas of Europe.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

@AragoASB , this is just fascinating. Thank you for educating me. I love it. We have piles of crows all over where we live and now I will look at them with new respect. I loved your stories. Wouldn't mind if you started a thread and told more.


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## tofreya1 (Jan 11, 2010)

waresbear said:


> These birds have been nesting on our property for years. We've saved their kids from the dogs numerous times, and lived with the fledglings occupying our space. I don't mind that, not a big deal to grab some leather gloves and pick up a hissing bird and move it. I can hose off patio furniture, steps & railings of their droppings, well more like splash, but the worst was how they crapped in the horses' water tank and left guts & bones in it. I decided to only fill the tank 1/2 way, sick of wasting water, and heavy to dump, inconvenient to unscrew the drain. I started this a few weeks ago, and much to my utter delight, ravens want a full tank, they haven't fouled it once. Just for that, I will continue to rescue any fledgling that is on the ground from my dogs. Before this, I was going to let the dogs do what they do, kill vermin & whatever. They can stick to rats & mice.Video of my raven family at feeding time and my ACD with his bush rat.
> 
> 
> View attachment 1113741


I had the same problem except that the ravens were in the automatic waters which only hold about 6 inches of water and you can’t lower the level. What a mess! So I bought a big trough and did what you did… Filled it halfway!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Arago I don't know about animals getting bigger closer to the arctic personally. I'm from down under. We do have the big pineapple, big banana, big Brahman, big prawn... & the rest! :lol:


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

Thanks knightrider. I'm writing a book.

I looked up this Rough Neighborhood bird and found out his story
Bird Takes Off With Knife From Crime Scene
and








Canuck and I


Canuck and I, Ванкувер. Отметки "Нравится": 118 752 · Обсуждают: 5 205. This page is for all who want to get to know my buddy Canuck the Crow. It's an incredibly special relationship that I wouldn't...




www.facebook.com


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

The bayrays fledged, while I was riding in the arena. Both kids flew towards the neighbors' deep forest, no landing on the ground, a first. The mother, Cheryl, did her best to distract my dogs, dive bombing, landing on the ground, etc. Good they are gone, I can now fill the trough full, hah! Picture of Cheryl, Darryl won't pose.


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## AragoASB (Jul 12, 2020)

I like some of this in my orange juice. 











Old Crow. I am old and I like crows.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Bourbon & me don't mix well, lol!


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