# Views on hitting horses.



## .Delete.

Many people think its crule. But then again, many people feel its neccessary. Tell me what you think.


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## reiningfan

I think alot depends on what you mean by hitting. A smack on the rear end is not the same as a smack on the face.


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## Kyani

Yeah, there is a big difference. There is no excuse for hitting a horse with unecessary force or repeatedly, but if the bratty pony on our yard tries to barge me, he is getting a smack on the chest, and trying to bite gets him a swift tap on the nose. It not only stops people getting hurt but is beneficial for the horse too - horses that don't learn manners don't end up in nice homes, afterall.
It's all very well to be sentimental about horses, but they are never going to hold it against you for reprimanding them within reason - that's how they learn from each other in the field, and it's an easy way for them to understand when they're wrong. Sometimes waving arms and making yourself 'big' to warn a horse off something just isn't enough.


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## Sara

If the horse is crowding me or trying to bite me, heck yes I will hit them. That seems like a no-brainer...am I misunderstanding what you mean?


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## GottaRide

I will hit my horse anywhere on his body with most things available only when necessary. The key is timing and an appropriate level of "hit". 

When I bring a feed dish full of grain to my horse and he impatiently reaches for the dish & pushes me, he will get hit in the head so that he moves the offending body part away from me. Usually I only have to do it hard one time and the next time I just wave my hand in the air and he knows to stay back.

When I'm leading my horse and he rushes ahead of me, I will use the lead rope (or if I happen to be carrying my training stick I will use that) to hit my horse in the chest or swing the rope in front of his nose until he hits the rope with his nose so that he will not go forward of that invisible barrier. 

When I'm riding and the horse isn't going where I want him to go, I will use my legs to hit him (ie kicking...leg pressure). If he doesn't respond with a light kick, I kick (hit) harder until he moves appropriately. 

These are just very simple examples of how I hit my horses. I think it is absolutely necessary to hit your horse in this manner. A senseless beating is not ever necessary and there is a BIG difference between what I do when I hit my horse compared to a senseless beating.


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## BudCap

I have found that hitting doesn't work for my horses. It doesn't teach them anything and it makes me feel bad. I always find another way to deal the the problem.


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## .Delete.

*Hitting*

I mean tell me what you think is ok and what is not ok. For example.

One time my horse pinned me up in the corner of his stall and started to attack me. I grabbed the closest thing to me (which happened to be a 2x4) and beat him over the head with it. Did i feel bad about it? Well i wish it wasn't a 2x4, but no. He deserved it, he never did it again, and didn't become head shy. I will not tolerate horses that attack people what so ever. Either you attack them back to teach them a lesson, or your putting yourself in danger by keeping them.


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## tim

All I will say is that it does not do to linger over punishment. Hitting horses must be objective. You can't do it because you want to, it has to be done in a manner that will make them aware of their mistake, and then move on. Theres no need for excessiveness here.


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## Vidaloco

Ever watch a lead mare deal with subordinants? I don't think I could hurt my horse as bad as they hurt each other. As stated above it has to be appropriate and well timed otherwise its just being mean.


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## Spirithorse

I think blocking the horse is fine, like if he tries to barge into you while you are trying to feed him. You have to protect your space. But I never hit a horse. I don't think it's ok to smack a horse for biting, etc. Horses will always give warning signs prior to when they bite, so if the person misses the warning, well, it's their own darn fault and the horse shouldn't be punished for the person's lack of attention. It's very easy to prevent biting. Just my 2 cents.


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## horse_luver4e

I will smack them if they are being bad, you know like on the chest or butt, but if they are in my space I kick them like pat parelli does. just boot em!lol not real hard though, just enough to get the message.


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## Vidaloco

The one and only time Vida ever kicked me, I was cleaning between her teets. She must have gotten overstimulated or something but she gave me a very light tap with a back leg. In a split second I kicked her back. We stood and looked at each other for a bit kinda like "gee what was that all about, I am SOOO sorry" and that was it. If a horse kicks me you can bet I am going to kick back but it has to be instantly. I would never just go out and kick or hit a horse for no good reason.


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## HorsesAreForever

I only hit my horse if its nessacary i hate it when my horse shoves with his nose so i will 'Hit' him on the nose and my horse has a issue with cleaning his back feet either he will kick them out to stretch or he will just ripp them out of my hand and when he does that i will smack him on the side of his leg pretty hard and i hit him for leaning against me cause he wouldnt get his weight off of me so i smacked him hard enough to get him to stand away from me but when people just hit them cause it fun or w.e its just wrong


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## .Delete.

But what do you consider too much? Smacking a horse between the ears several times when it rears? My opinion is punish the horse bad enough to make sure they will never do it again. That is depending on the mistake. Like i have a pony that bites. Once he bit my dad, he punched him right in the head. He never did it again. But then i have a friend who mearly taps her horse when it bites her, her horse has turned it into a game. He will nip at her and see how fast he can pull away faster then she can hit. This is a problem.


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## free_sprtd

That sounds like a respect thing....I think there are other ways to gain respect other than just a light tap, or just one swift punch in the head. That's just my opinion. I do, however, think that they need to be reprimanded when necessary, and like everyone else said, at the right time. It's all about respect. I believe there are many different techniques out there to gain respect, boundaries, and bond with a horse.


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## .Delete.

I completely agree there are. But at the time, that was the quickest and most point making punishment.


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## horse_luver4e

Beating a horse in the head isn't going to teach them not to rear.


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## Vidaloco

There is a difference between hitting and training. When you hit a horse you really aren't teaching it anything. You are just reacting to whatever pain or discomfort the horse caused you. Its normal to react in that way to a certain extent. There are much better ways to "teach" a horse that certain behavior is not acceptable. As Spirithorse said you usually get a warning sign from a horse that they are about to strike out. Lets face it they are the masters of body language if we only learn how to read them. Whenever I have smacked a horse its just me being human and reacting in the way that humans do. I realize it is a human fault and that it isnt a proper way to teach a horse. On the other hand as stated in my previous post, horses are pretty hard on each other. I don't think I could kick a horse as hard as they kick each other. One thing I have learned over the years is with horses you have to leave your temper at the barn door and louder isn't better. But once in awhile... BAM to the moon :wink:


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## .Delete.

I never said that i did it. It was mearly an example


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## horse_luver4e

Yeah when horses are crowding me, I'll boot em on the chest or side, and they leave me alone. But I would NEVER punch, beat, or even hit my horse too hard. What does it teach them? "Oh my owner just causes me pain when I make a mistake I don't want to be around them."

I agree with you Vidaloco, we should just read there body language.


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## Jr_lover

I disagree with that. My horse used to chase people down and drag them he was just always angry. He would flatten his ears and attack people. Well now he's and angel you know how that happened? Well every time he attacked me or even put his ears back to me i hit him. Basically i told him i was alpha and he wasn't going to push me around.


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## .Delete.

"Booting" is the same thing as hitting, your just doing it with your feet.


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## free_sprtd

I wasn't saying you did that.....just that I think that behavior is towards the extreme. Everyone has good opinions. I agree with Vidaloco :wink:


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## horse_luver4e

> "Booting" is the same thing as hitting, your just doing it with your feet.


Yes but it's something horses do in the pasture. It's natural. Have you ever heard of Natural Horsemanship?


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## BluMagic

I agree with the head part. I would never hit any horse in the face! I've heard of a lot of people smacking their horse on the poll it they rear. If my friend's horse does bad, like nip her when she is cinching, she pulls his ear. lol. I will smack Blu a little on the chest. Or in the butt. Blu was head shy when I got him. I don't want to make his past seem to come around again. I think the hardest I've ever smacked him was when I went to pick up his hind foot once and he swung out at me almost hitting me in the face but straining my wrist. I popped my little baby in the butt. Just enough to let him know, you know?

lol. sorry for so much. Hitting your horse isn't right. Sometimes if Blu does wrong. I lunge him. i make him work until he decides it was wrong...

edited for spelling. SORRY!


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## horse_luver4e

> lol. sorry for so much. Hitting your horse is right. Sometimes if Blu does wrong. I lunge him. i make him work until he decides it was wrong...


I agree 100%!


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## Jr_lover

I'm sry but sometimes hitting your horse in the more sensitive areas will help more especially for those tougher horses. Like my horse Junior i hit him on the butt and sometimes he wont react. Like he paws in the barn and one day i hit him on the butt for it so he of course moved over but he started pawing alot again so i hit him on his knee with the whip really hard now he wont do it. I'm not cruel but i'm just saying sometimes causing pain makes them think about it. Its just like when you get whipping as a child you know not to do something bad because of the pain coming afterwards.


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## .Delete.

Natural horsemanship. The art of working, training and riding with horses is a manner which works WITH the horse's behavior, instincts and personality in an easy and kind manner. To allow a horse to do what comes naturally to him includes allowing him to buck when he feels good or when he’s upset; to rear or bite or kick when he feels like it, or to react with the spin, bolt and “get out of Dodge” spook response when he’s frightened. Horses on average weight 1,000 pounds are far quicker than us and at least 10 times stronger. *If we want a true partnership with our horse we can’t beat him into it. Using pain to achieve our goals is both morally and ethically unacceptable, as well as ineffective.* <--- Some parts of Natural Horsemanship. I don't think "booting" falls under that.


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## horse_luver4e

It's just pain, you need to do Natural Horsemanship, and work your horse to get the relationship you need with communtication, not fear.


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## BluMagic

I don't take my reactions to him as hitting, booting, or anything really. I take it more as..."you will respect me by not doing that." 

Similar to being in the wild. Someone's the boss. I want Blu and I to be great friends...but I also want him to know that he should respect me as I will respect him. 

I don't think I have ever kicked him...


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## .Delete.

Darling, you need to stop telling me what to do =]. You don't know me, or my style. You assume too much.


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## BluMagic

^ I agree with you about the accusations and such. Everyone has their own way, and I do respect that. :wink:


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## Jr_lover

well some people think its right to not punish your horse and if that works then thats fine but not everyone agrees with that so of course just like how everyone has a different way of training their horse. Its all about what works for you.


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## Vidaloco

Jr_lover said:


> I disagree with that. My horse used to chase people down and drag them he was just always angry. He would flatten his ears and attack people. Well now he's and angel you know how that happened? Well every time he attacked me or even put his ears back to me i hit him. Basically i told him i was alpha and he wasn't going to push me around.


 Sounds like you had to deal with an extreme case. I understand why you had to resort to extreme measures. I think what some of the other posters are refering to is overreacting to a small infraction by a horse ie punching in the nose for nibbling at your fingers, severe lashing for stepping on your foot etc. There are better less "painful" ways to deal with that type of training issue in my opinion.


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## BluMagic

There you go!  Do what is necesarry, not...what's the word...intended? lol


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## .Delete.

It wasn't a "nibble on the fingers". My dad was leaning on the fence and my pony grabbed a chunk of his arm in his mouth, bruised him pretty bad. I feel he deserved that punch.


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## Vidaloco

.Delete. said:


> It wasn't a "nibble on the fingers". My dad was leaning on the fence and my pony grabbed a chunk of his arm in his mouth, bruised him pretty bad. I feel he deserved that punch.


Agreed  I had a horse take a chunk out of my arm, still have the scar. I couldnt get up off the ground (yes she knocked me on my butt) fast enough to react so I had to let it go. Horses don't understand punishment 2-3-or 10 minuites after the fact. If I had still been standing and in arms or legs length I would have kicked the S*&% out of her.


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## BluMagic

^^ I totally agree. I say you have three to five seconds to correct bad behavior. lol.


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## horse_luver4e

Delete I wasn't even talking to you. But all I said was Natural Horsemanship is neat to look into.


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## Jr_lover

well yea you should never overreact but honestly i use hitting as my horses punishment i find it works great but i only do it for things he really needs to be hit for usually if he steps on me i'll push him away and i'll have nothing to do with him for a little while that makes him mad lol. But like if he bits me i jerk so that i tap him on the nose since he doesn't like his nose being touched in the first place i don't have to do much for that punishment.


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## BluMagic

I admit to having to jerk down on a horses halter for bad behavior. I am not against that kind of punishment, I just think there is a boundary that shouldn't be crossed. :wink:


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## Jr_lover

Jerking on a horses halter can actually cause many problems to leading a horse and catching a horse. So i don't really think that is the best punishment but if it works for you then ok.


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## BluMagic

Yes, I do understand that and I am glad for your concern. It has only been a handful of times but i know that is just the same. I haven't ever done that to Blu, by the way. lol


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## horse_luver4e

If a horse bites me I'll just grab there lip and twist it and say no. I have heard that if you smack a horse when it bites you it just has a game with it and see's how fast it can bite you without getting smacked.


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## BluMagic

I wouldn't twist there lip. I think that might cause more nipping but I'm not sure.


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## Jr_lover

wouldn't that be the same for twisting their lip? Let me see how fast i can bit you without you grabbing my lip and twisting it. :lol:


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## Spirithorse

IMO horses don't understand punishment. A smack on the nose, a jerk on the halter, a jab in the ribs, yelling, hitting the horse with an object, etc......the horse only sees this as a predatorial act from the human and thus does one of two things. 1) turns it into a game because the person doesn't have a clue what they are doing, or 2) the horse will fear the human. Fear can come in an extroverted form or an introverted form. The horses that hold their fear inside are said to be "obediant" but really they are scared. I personally have never seen smacking a horse for anything work in the long run. And I've been around horses for awhile :wink: 

Sure, horses beat up on each other in the herd, sometimes break bones and such, but that's herd life! It's all part of it. THE DIFFERENCE b/w an alpha horse's correction and a human's punishment is that the human is a PREDATOR in the horse's eyes. A horse knows another horse, a prey animal, is not out to kill him. But horses don't know that about humans. Inside every tame or domesticated horse is a wild horse and you can't change a million years of perception. Horses will continue to see people as predators, not to be trusted, for as long as the species is alive. But we can prove to them that even though we look, smell, and walk like predators, we will never act like one and we can be trusted. But I believe that will not occur through punishment.


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## horse_luver4e

No becuse you don't let go. It's John Lynons or however you spell it lol


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## BluMagic

I held my horse's tongue once! :lol: 

It was cool. He just let me. lol.


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## BluMagic

Spirithorse said:


> IMO horses don't understand punishment. A smack on the nose, a jerk on the halter, a jab in the ribs, yelling, hitting the horse with an object, etc......the horse only sees this as a predatorial act from the human and thus does one of two things. 1) turns it into a game because the person doesn't have a clue what they are doing, or 2) the horse will fear the human. Fear can come in an extroverted form or an introverted form. The horses that hold their fear inside are said to be "obediant" but really they are scared. I personally have never seen smacking a horse for anything work in the long run. And I've been around horses for awhile :wink:
> 
> Sure, horses beat up on each other in the herd, sometimes break bones and such, but that's herd life! It's all part of it. THE DIFFERENCE b/w an alpha horse's correction and a human's punishment is that the human is a PREDATOR in the horse's eyes. A horse knows another horse, a prey animal, is not out to kill him. But horses don't know that about humans. Inside every tame or domesticated horse is a wild horse and you can't change a million years of perception. Horses will continue to see people as predators, not to be trusted, for as long as the species is alive. But we can prove to them that even though we look, smell, and walk like predators, we will never act like one and we can be trusted. But I believe that will not occur through punishment.


I get where you are coming from. its just the way people and horses think... :wink:


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## horse_luver4e

> IMO horses don't understand punishment. A smack on the nose, a jerk on the halter, a jab in the ribs, yelling, hitting the horse with an object, etc......the horse only sees this as a predatorial act from the human and thus does one of two things. 1) turns it into a game because the person doesn't have a clue what they are doing, or 2) the horse will fear the human. Fear can come in an extroverted form or an introverted form. The horses that hold their fear inside are said to be "obediant" but really they are scared. I personally have never seen smacking a horse for anything work in the long run. And I've been around horses for awhile
> 
> Sure, horses beat up on each other in the herd, sometimes break bones and such, but that's herd life! It's all part of it. THE DIFFERENCE b/w an alpha horse's correction and a human's punishment is that the human is a PREDATOR in the horse's eyes. A horse knows another horse, a prey animal, is not out to kill him. But horses don't know that about humans. Inside every tame or domesticated horse is a wild horse and you can't change a million years of perception. Horses will continue to see people as predators, not to be trusted, for as long as the species is alive. But we can prove to them that even though we look, smell, and walk like predators, we will never act like one and we can be trusted. But I believe that will not occur through punishment.


OMG!!! Finally someone who gets it!


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## Jr_lover

idk i still think punishing a horse by hitting is better just because thats how the pecking order goes in the herd too. But thats just my opinion.


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## .Delete.

So horse_luver4e ''booting'' a horse isn't punishment? Because what Spirit says is punishment is just making the horse fear you more.


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## Vidaloco

I agree completely with Spirithorse. But we are human predators and we sometimes react as such. It would be great if someday the violence could be bred out of humans.


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## BluMagic

Vidaloco said:


> I agree completely with Spirithorse. But we are human predators and we sometimes react as such. It would be great if someday the violence could be bred out of humans.


WISELY said, Vida. There are very good points in all this...


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## Jr_lover

Vidaloco said:


> I agree completely with Spirithorse. But we are human predators and we sometimes react as such. It would be great if someday the violence could be bred out of humans.


haha that made me giggle


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## .Delete.

But then horses will still be violent. So what are you going to do is you run into a horse that is trying to attack you and you have no way out? Say "No bad horsie stop it, bad bad horse" Its not going to do anything. That has happened to me, and i had to use violence or else i was most likely not going to live.


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## Jr_lover

.Delete. said:


> But then horses will still be violent. So what are you going to do is you run into a horse that is trying to attack you and you have no way out? Say "No bad horsie stop it, bad bad horse" Its not going to do anything. That has happened to me, and i had to use violence or else i was most likely not going to live.


thats when you beat them of course lol.


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## .Delete.

Exactly my point. In some cases you people who clam "to not want to hit the horsie" would have to use force to get out of it. Hypocrite.


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## BluMagic

???


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## .Delete.

Ok. People who say hitting the horse is wrong, can also be used for right in dangerous situations. Like horse_luver4e said she would NEVER hit her horse. In a dangerous situation she would have to.


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## tim

I hit horses when necessary.

I refuse to be one of those namby-pamby people who insist it's cruel and they are "above" hitting their horse.


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## BluMagic

I agree. I hope I didn't sound like what you are explaining.....? :?


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## Vidaloco

.Delete. said:


> But then horses will still be violent. So what are you going to do is you run into a horse that is trying to attack you and you have no way out? Say "No bad horsie stop it, bad bad horse" Its not going to do anything. That has happened to me, and i had to use violence or else i was most likely not going to live.


We are getting a little existential philosophicaly survivalist here but hey if anything is about to kill me you bet your bottom I'm going to fight back. :wink: But I also know we are the predator and the horse is the prey so I would have to step back and wonder why the horse is reacting the way it is. Since I am the one with the superior intellegence I would have to think the best answer to violence isnt always more violence.


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## .Delete.

I agree with Tim


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## tim

Haha, no Blu. I actually don't think anyone has maintained the same position throughout this debate... :? 

My original post:


tim said:


> All I will say is that it does not do to linger over punishment. Hitting horses must be objective. You can't do it because you want to, it has to be done in a manner that will make them aware of their mistake, and then move on. Theres no need for excessiveness here.


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## BluMagic

Relief has swept over me! :-D


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## Jr_lover

well i say we all agree to disagree and do what we think is right and what works for us


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## BluMagic

Nicely put and I believe you are right. :wink:


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## .Delete.

We all have different styles of training. We do what works best for us.


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## Jr_lover

yep yep


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## tim

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: 

Oh man I can't stop laughing!


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## Vidaloco

Been and interesting way to spend an evening when there isnt jack on the tube. Thanks for a good conversation on a hot subject. Glad we all agree to disagree :wink:


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## Jr_lover

hahahahahaha why?


confuzzled here....


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## Cheval

I'm to lazy to read all the posts, but this is my opinion on hitting...

I think if you start to beat the crap out of the horse, screaming at him, kicking... - no, of course that's not okay. That would be called abuse. I think if you give him a little smack on the chest, and say "No!" in a louder voice, then that's fine. However, if you don't use your voice - what's the point? Yeah - they're a thousand pound animal that could kill you any second - do you think they'll care for a little smack?


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## tim

Yea, I posted maybe 4 times but I was reading the whole thing. I agree with Vida here, very entertaining. And such a great ending!


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## .Delete.

Where i ride at. If you strike your horse or raise your voice you are a "horse abuser". So pretty much everyone thinks im a cruel evil person because i punish my horse -_-


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## Jr_lover

Then lets applaud lol yay for the good ending *clapping*


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## .Delete.

=D


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## drop_your_reins

I think it greatly depends on the horse. I think we all know "sweetheart" horses who are a little nervous around you and their actions are purely to please you... If they do something wrong, chances are its not out of spite, anger, or underminding authority.. something else is wrong.. In which case I would use a firm voice and correct them. If a horse like that were to get into my personal space, I would push them out of it.. 

On the other hand if I'm riding happy go bucky gelding, who could care less if you smack him (he'll learn his lesson and forget about it two minutes from then).. and verbal correction wouldn't do much, then I wouldn't hesitate to give him a smack to correct him. I think the severity of the punishment should be equal to the severity of the crime and the intent. 

For example I was once riding a horse for a friend who went a-wall bronco on me and bucked me off (I stayed on for at least 8-9 bucks, I was rather impressed with myself).. As soon as I fell off he galloped away, came back and charged me (luckily I got up and stood behind the other horse that was on the trail) and ran into the woods. I spent the next two hours looking for him, and had I found him I would have beaten the crap out of him and I wouldn't have felt the least bit sorry... Fortunately for him, he came back to his owner before I found him, but I would never tolerate that behavior from ANY horse, ever! 

So I think most horse people share this view.. If its a harmless but annoying habit (like constant whinnying) then I don't think it deserves a physical punishment.. but maybe some yelling and threatening hitting of the stall to scare the horse quiet a bit..


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## jazzyrider

i havent read all the posts yet but im going to give my two cents worth...

im not a big fan of hitting my horses but i do believe that, as in the wild, sometimes force is needed to make them truly understand that what they are doing is not going to be tolerated. if a horse thinks all that will happen if he is naughty is that he will get yelled at then what really is going to stop him from doing it the next time??

examples: possum always nudges the bucket out of my hands when im pouring her dinner into the upfeeder. every time it happens i get hurt in some way whether it be by my fingers getting mooshed into the side of the feeder or i get a bucket smacking me in the face. this annoys the hell out of me for two reasons a) i get hurt and its a show of dominance from here and b) impatience and her not respecting my space come into play. sooo, whenever she does it now i give her a light slap on the muzzle. its not enough to hurt her but the sound it makes is what makes her stop.

my wb has a nasty habit of kicking out of the blue when he has cranky days. on these days i carry my lunge whip with me and the first sign of a kick is met with a crack on the butt. this is harder than how i discipline possum as kicking is more dangerous and disrespectful than shoving the bucket out of the way to get to her food. i dont hit him with the whip part, i do it with the stem of the whip and it is always straight away not 10 seconds after but as soon as it happens. and its not really hard but hard enough that he knows that if he tries to hurt me then he is gunna get a sting on his butt. 

biting, shoving and other bad behaviour is met by a slight smack as well. but only this kind of behaviour is disciplined by smacking. anything else i discipline by holding my arms up high and letting out a gruff 'aaaaght' sound and usually thats enough to make them stop.

so, to answer your question...i think hitting the horse over the head with a 2x4 is excessive but then again when you are in a dangerous situation and there is nothing else around you do what you have to do. i wouldnt however suggest doing this at any other time. that kind of thing has the potential to actually damage the horse. 

light smacking, use of a whip (within reason) and other disciplinary measures that involve smacking are fine as long as the person doing the disciplining isnt using excessive force, hitting at randoms times that arent as soon as the act is performed or repeatedly bashing.

repeated hits to the head when rearing is excessive in 99% of cases i believe as its usually pain or rider error that causes these things to happen


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## .Delete.

So we all agree that in some situations hitting is an approprate punishment, but shouldn't be over done. Just enough to let the horse know what it has done wrong.


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## GottaRide

I think it is funny - those of you that practice & preach Natural Horsemanship - that you don't think you hit your horse.

I have a lot of experience with all the different NH trainers. All of them in certain situations will tell you to hit the horse, and to hit hard enough to cause pain. 

Do you think Phase 4 of the Parelli method is a light tap? It shouldn't be if done properly.

Do you think the 3 second rule imposed by John Lyons is meant for a little nudge? No way, not if your intent is to make the horse think he's going to die.

It's funny that many of you are not really facing reality on this subject. A hit is a hit is a hit. A kick is a hit. A smack is a hit. A tap with the whip is a hit. A hit does not have to be abusive. Hitting a horse is used in almost all methods of training horses. How that hit is applied, and when it is applied, is the difference between effective training and abusive training.


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## PoptartShop

Hitting for discipline is OK...I mean I hit my horse sometimes; but not very hard or anything.
Now, if you are hitting the horse for no reason, really hard, then that is definitely abuse.


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## Spirithorse

I practice NH and I don't hit my horses :roll: I give them the chance to move and if they don't, it's their own fault, and they RUN INTO the stick, rope, etc.


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## LuLu

If my horse is being geniuely naughty or mareish then I will give her a light tap on the shoulder area, but I would NEVER kick or punch her!! "Booting" the horse, IMO, has no place in Natural Horsemanship at all!! if my horse paws the ground, I simply ignore it, it is just attention seeking and the more i tell her off about it the more she does it, so I don't give her the satisfaction of going up to her, because then she has won! Using a whip as punishment is UNACCEPTABLE in my book!! :x They are for reinforcing your leg aids, NOT for punishment!! Sorry, but that is something I feel very strongly about!! If she barges into me, I say "No" very firmly, and make her back up, so she is out of my space, and she doesn't do it again! When I do give her a tap (and I mean a tap), then I make sure I do it within that 3 seconds of her doing what she did, otherwise she will have forgotten about it! It's no good the horse doing something bad, then you punishing it 10 seconds, 2 minutes etc later because that will just totally confuse the horse!


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## mylucalove

I agree with the instant 3 second correction. But we do need to give horses a little more credit here....if a horse is attacking you he won't be forgetting it in the next three seconds. And riding crops are used to hit the horse. Sure its just a tap but in truth thats what you are doing. Hitting (tapping) the horse to get its attention.

Its a natrual thing. Horses nip and kick eachother. I have even seen mares nip there own babies for doing something wrong. Usually because the foal nipped or invaded her space in the wrong way. 

Don't beat the horse....but let the horse know IF you wanted to, you could cream them. It teaches them to think of you as being dominate over them.....very important.


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## LuLu

mylucalove said:


> And riding crops are used to hit the horse.


Yes, I agree, but not as punishment! They are to back up your leg aid.


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## .Delete.

> I practice NH and I don't hit my horses I give them the chance to move and if they don't, it's their own fault, and they RUN INTO the stick, rope, etc.


So tell me. If you horse kicks out at you. Just how is it going to RUN INTO a stick or a rope. Or If your horse tries to bite you, how can they "run into" a rope? Maybe im not understanding what you mean by "run into" but it makes no sense to me.


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## BluMagic

Uhhh....I posted about this on another forum. Is that bad? I was just wondering more about how everyone felt. 

Will this get me in trouble or anything here? If you would like to view the post....it is on www.e-equestrian.com under the General Equestrian Discussion. 

I'm saying sorry in advance just in case........................................................................


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## .Delete.

LuLu said:


> If she barges into me, I say "No" very firmly, and make her back up, so she is out of my space, and she doesn't do it again! When I do give her a tap (and I mean a tap), then I make sure I do it within that 3 seconds of her doing what she did, otherwise she will have forgotten about it


But that dosen't work for everyone. If i did that to my horse he would look at me like i was stupid and keep on barging into my space. Yelling at a horse in my opinion does no good. They can't understand you. So why waste your breath. Im not saying its foolish to talk to your horse, i talk to mine all the time. But trying to punish a horse through words, i find foolish.


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## ilovemydun

Yeah, I agree. What works for one horse doesn't always work for the next. Depends on their temperment, upbringing, etc. I worked with one filly who was spoiled rotten while she was growing up and no matter what you did, she would stand there and look at you like you were stupid for even trying. But with my horse, in certain situations, if she is doing something I don't want her to do, I will make a specific noise, and she will stop. Because she has associate that noise with doing something wrong.

It really depends.


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## Spirithorse

Delete, if a horse kicks out at me I certainly don't hit them. It was MY FAULT that the horse either 1) was fearful of me and I didn't prepare him well, or 2) didn't have enough respect for me before I tried to do whatever it was when he kicked out at me. If the horse did kick out at me I would bring his head back around so his butt went away from me. Then I would assess if it was a fearful or dominant reaction. Depending on which it was would determine my course of action.

Same goes for a horse biting me. It's MY FAULT if I get bitten. Now if the horse bites or kicks in a dominant way, one strategy I can use is to back them up IMMEDIATELY after it happens, just as if the horse did it to himself. That in my opinion is negative reinforcement, not punishment. I didn't go out of my way to correct the horse, the horse precieves it as a direct result of what he did, not an attack on my part. Now if I were to haul out and smack the horse or whack him with the rope or stick the horse would preceive that as an attack. We can prove to horses that we are the dominant ones without the use of force.


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## I Love Lane

Delete: We once had a 3yo stud by Kid Clu who was meaner then hell (really good horse mean while - won the world 2 years in a row in his led class)....... we had a girl called Cassie that would feed nights in our Barn and every night he used to pick her up by her pony tail and throw her out of his box. After a week of this happening she finally said to me that he was doing it and i went to feed him with her that night. She walked into his box and sure enough her came for her like every other night, only thing was that i had given her an electric cattle prod and as he reached for her she zapped him right on the tounge with it :lol: ........... he fell on his A** against the wall of his box. He was still meaner then all get up but he never attacked her again!  

So yes if the occassion calls for it i will beat the tar out of them and not feel bad about it...... as i have said before: we are about 120-200lbs and a horse is 1000 - 2500lbs....... what damage is a fist in the nose reall going to do......... :roll: 

As for those who CLAIM that they never hit their horse, sorry but i find that incredibly unlikely.


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## horse_luver4e

That is very right. I hate to bring this up again but remember my thread about stud chains? I was trying to make the same point about that only less abusive lol. When she tries to push me with her front end or just start acting simple I would just pull(not yank) the stud chain and back her up. Like I Love Lane said, we are no match to horses they are stronger and weigh more, but over time I did Parelli and I don't use the stud chain anymore.


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## Jr_lover

wow i thought we all agreed to disagree?! confuzzled much....


how about we all do what works for us :wink:


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## horse_luver4e

> wow i thought we all agreed to disagree?! confuzzled much....
> 
> 
> how about we all do what works for us


What do you mean?


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## jazzyrider

.Delete. said:


> LuLu said:
> 
> 
> 
> If she barges into me, I say "No" very firmly, and make her back up, so she is out of my space, and she doesn't do it again! When I do give her a tap (and I mean a tap), then I make sure I do it within that 3 seconds of her doing what she did, otherwise she will have forgotten about it
> 
> 
> 
> But that dosen't work for everyone. If i did that to my horse he would look at me like i was stupid and keep on barging into my space. Yelling at a horse in my opinion does no good. They can't understand you. So why waste your breath. Im not saying its foolish to talk to your horse, i talk to mine all the time. *But trying to punish a horse through words, i **find foolish.*
Click to expand...

not try to be argumentative here but its not always the words they get, its the tone of voice that they respond too


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## Jr_lover

horse_luver4e said:


> wow i thought we all agreed to disagree?! confuzzled much....
> 
> 
> how about we all do what works for us
> 
> 
> 
> What do you mean?
Click to expand...

wow i'm not even gonna explain that :roll:


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## horse_luver4e

Don't take offence to everything, you ment like you thought we would disagree? or wow I'm lost 

vidaloco you are very right.


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## Vidaloco

Oh my are we back on this again? Just reread everything I posted last night and go on without me. :wink:


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## horse_luver4e

huh? okay am I missing something?


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## Vidaloco

horse_luver4e said:


> huh? okay am I missing something?


No your not, just note the times and dates on some of the posts most of the thread was last night and a few of us agreed to each his/her own on the subject ie agreed to disagree and not get defensive about it.


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## EquiSoup

My horse is a alpha gelding. Alpha in the herd, and alpha with his humans. Because of this he's been passed from home to home. He becomes pushy. He's defensive with spurs and crops, probably because someone beat and kicked the poo out of him. 

I "hit" him instantly when he is being pushy, rude, dangerous. I have to prove to this horse that I'm his alpha. He still tests it.

Now I have a horse with good ground manners, not a fire breathing monster. (He's still defensive with the crop or spurs, so I don't use them. I respect that.)

There is a time and a place for physical punishment, just as there are the horses that can handle the physical punishment. 

The alpha horse tends to be more physical and seems to be able to handle when a human is more aggressive and physical. 

The bottom feeder of the herd is much much less aggressive. A horse like this is less likely to need punishment, but when it does, often a look, a sharp "no", or just the way you stand can be punishment enough. 

I would never hit a nervous, flighty horse, unless I was in danger. I have no problem physically punishing a more aggressive/dominant horse, quickly after something has happened as that horse is more likely to be capable of handling it.

i had to edit that swear word out - jazzyrider


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## kitten_Val

jazzyrider said:


> not try to be argumentative here but its not always the words they get, its the tone of voice that they respond too


Absolutely agree. Horses are really good about intonations (as well as dogs and cats). Usually it's enough for me to say firmly my alpha name to stop her chasing the paint from food. I never tried really scream at horse, but when I'm angry and talk to them they know something is wrong. I always try to use voice first, then continue with tap or light smack.


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## .Delete.

Spirithorse said:


> MY FAULT


Im sorry but in my opinion no matter what i do (that isn't causing pain to the horse). There is no excuse for a horse to bite or kick out at him. 

I have a pony, who is one of the smartest animals you will ever come across. He changes himself according to the people he is around. But he is mean, he hates everyone and anyone. No matter who you are or what you do he will test you. Depending on who you are, he will test you more or less. So lets say i walk out into a pasture to pick up a halter that is laying out. He charges at me, how is that "my" fault. I should be able to walk out into the pasture without being attacked. He may think that the pasture is "his" domaine and im intruding. But i feel that is "no" excuse for attacking someone. 

Or if you walk past a horse in crossties and it kicks out at you. There is absolutly no excuse for that. No matter what. I understand that some situations i can understand why a horse would kick out, maybe if they got frightened or such, but still i would smack a horse for kicking out even if it was frightened. Because no matter how "innocent" that act was, its still a danger to people around. Who's to say that, that horse wont get "scared" and kick out when a little child walks by. No, i find that no matter what is going on biting, kicking, rearing, clawing, ect. Is not acceptable.


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## Spirithorse

If a horse hates people that much to charge at someone out in a pasture or kick at them in cross ties when it's not fear that is SOMEONE'S FAULT. Horses aren't born HATING people, they LEARN to hate due to people due to bad experiences or people who are very rude, rough, unfair, etc. People CAUSE behavior like what you described.


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## LuLu

.Delete. said:


> LuLu said:
> 
> 
> 
> If she barges into me, I say "No" very firmly, and make her back up, so she is out of my space, and she doesn't do it again! When I do give her a tap (and I mean a tap), then I make sure I do it within that 3 seconds of her doing what she did, otherwise she will have forgotten about it
> 
> 
> 
> But that dosen't work for everyone. If i did that to my horse he would look at me like i was stupid and keep on barging into my space. Yelling at a horse in my opinion does no good. They can't understand you. So why waste your breath. Im not saying its foolish to talk to your horse, i talk to mine all the time. But trying to punish a horse through words, i find foolish.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying that that is the absolute correct way to do it, it's just what works for me and my horse, and you've got to find what suits your horse! i don't see how punishing a horse through words is foolish though :? Everyone I know with horses, tells them off by saying "no" etc! i raise my voice (not shouting) when I tell her off, but if i'm trying to calm her down, I use a quiet, calm voice and it works!  My horse understands that "no" means that she has done something bad! I still don't understand why telling them off verbally is foolish!! :? :? :?


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## mylucalove

Because eventually you just become a yip-yip dog to your horse. All bark and no bite. Believe me eventually they will start to ignore you. Especially if they are over bearing brutes.


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## .Delete.

I get what you mean by words. But its the tone of your voice the horse reacts to, not the word its self.

I agree it is someones fault. That horse that i have was beat when he was younger. So i can understand where you are coming from with the "someones fault". 

You are right horses arn't born to hate. But they are born with instinct, like someone walking behind a horse could cause them to kick out. In my opinion, that person did nothing to prevoke the horse, and that horse should be punished. Maybe the horse didn't know better, but they will learn quickly that kicking, biting, ect. Is unacceptable in any situation that involves humans.


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## Jr_lover

I'm sry not to try and sound rude but uh i thought this was solved....

basically you guys are repeating some of the same things already said still adding to what i already know and most of you guys already know not everyone is going to agree. Thats why basically you should just state and opinion and move on. If someone stated something you agree with keep going and don't repeat it.

I'm sry i just find this rediculous to prolong this topic anymore. Not trying to be mean. Hopefully you can understand my point of view...

Good reply's though i like how you guys really think through things.


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## .Delete.

I love to argue. Thats my excuse.


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## Jr_lover

.Delete. said:


> I love to argue. Thats my excuse.


well atleast your honest..


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## .Delete.

Mhmm


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## Kyani

It is kind of the point of a forum, isn't it? To discuss? That's why I'm here, afterall. If every post turns into 'oh, well, everyone thinks different things, isn't that fun?' it would be so insanely boring I'd never come back 

(or, for that matter, if it turns into another board I will not name where voicing a disagreement for anything will get you banned)


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## AKPaintLover

.Delete. said:


> You are right horses arn't born to hate. But they are born with instinct, like someone walking behind a horse could cause them to kick out. In my opinion, that person did nothing to prevoke the horse, and that horse should be punished. Maybe the horse didn't know better, but they will learn quickly that kicking, biting, ect. Is unacceptable in any situation that involves humans.


I am sorry, but if you walk behind a horse and give them no warning to your presence, and they happen to kick you out of fright, YOU DESERVE IT. That horse should not be punished in any way whatsoever. The human needs to learn from that and give the horse fair warning when behind them - also work on building a trusting relationship so the horse does not feel the need to immediately react on instinct. 

Punishing a horse for acting on instinct may or may not stop that behavior, but it will surely create an angry resentful horse that may act out in other ways. 

I have been injured a few times by horses (nothing serious), and I have immediately assessed, "was that my fault or his"

They have stepped on my feet plenty of times purely by accident - I would not ever dream of punishing them for that. 

I have never been kicked because I don't approach a horse that way

I have had horses buck with me, buck I usually spank the shoulder and keep working to show that the buck would not go rewarded by stopping work

I prefer to correct inappropriate behaviors by causing the horse to work rather than hitting if possible. 

Young horses who playfully bite, I try to block and redirect into some work. If you hit back, they make a game out of it. 

Aggressive horses who threaten to bite (I say threaten because there is always plenty of warning and no reason to let it actually get to the biting phase) - usually get responded to with my aggressive body posture and voice followed by some form of work or respect activity. 

My stallion who caught me in the shoulder without warning with both jaws when I was not watching him, but working on his fence. (he had a mare in with him for the first time - STUPID ME), BUT I went after him like his world was coming down (despite the throbbing shoulder). There was a lot of loud screaming on my part (which freaked him out), me running him all over his pen (by tossing a rubber bucket toward him and waiving it around (all I had with me), and running him off of MY MARE. By the end of it, he was standing a distance from me and the mare, facing me, ears forward, licking his lips, looking like, "HOLY S**T, I better never do that again". I of course will be more careful to not recreate the situation that caused it, but I feel confident in our roles in our relationship once again (me being the head stallion, and him ranking below me and respecting me - which he shows on a daily basis). That was my ONLY incident with him. 

I will not say that I have never smacked my horse. I am probably middle of the road. Not the hitting extreme of some on here, but not the hands off extreme either. I use spurs in my riding, I often carry a whip, especially with a horse I know may buck in some situations or refuse certain thing (that doesn't mean I beat the crap out of them ever). I try to use as many natural horsmanship techiques as possible to problem solve with my horses, but am not always hands off. I NEVER hit in anger or some other emotions - only in response to an action or as an aide asking for an action (tapping which spurs or crop, etc.)

As is clear, there are plenty of differing opinions on here, and that is mine.


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## Jr_lover

hehe i know a forum like that. But i was mainly saying that just to stop the possible fights :wink: you know how those things happen.....

But yea i was just saying also that most of the stuff being mentioned has already been mentioned.....but yea whatever i guess everyone has their own way of saying it. But hey even if i say it should end you guys have your own opinion :wink: so if you want to continue then continue... :lol:


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## .Delete.

But i didn't say that person gave warning. I didn't specify. But oh well, we are getting tech. with that.

On the trusting thing. What if a complete stranger walks behind your horse, gives warning. But you horse dosen't trust them and kicks at them? You can get sued for that. So, i punish my horses if they kick out at all. No matter what the situation is.


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## Jr_lover

AKPaintLover said:


> .Delete. said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are right horses arn't born to hate. But they are born with instinct, like someone walking behind a horse could cause them to kick out. In my opinion, that person did nothing to prevoke the horse, and that horse should be punished. Maybe the horse didn't know better, but they will learn quickly that kicking, biting, ect. Is unacceptable in any situation that involves humans.
> 
> 
> 
> I am sorry, but if you walk behind a horse and give them no warning to your presence, and they happen to kick you out of fright, YOU DESERVE IT. That horse should not be punished in any way whatsoever. The human needs to learn from that and give the horse fair warning when behind them - also work on building a trusting relationship so the horse does not feel the need to immediately react on instinct.
> 
> Punishing a horse for acting on instinct may or may not stop that behavior, but it will surely create an angry resentful horse that may act out in other ways.
> 
> I have been injured a few times by horses (nothing serious), and I have immediately assessed, "was that my fault or his"
> 
> They have stepped on my feet plenty of times purely by accident - I would not ever dream of punishing them for that.
> 
> I have never been kicked because I don't approach a horse that way
> 
> I have had horses buck with me, buck I usually spank the shoulder and keep working to show that the buck would not go rewarded by stopping work
> 
> I prefer to correct inappropriate behaviors by causing the horse to work rather than hitting if possible.
> 
> Young horses who playfully bite, I try to block and redirect into some work. If you hit back, they make a game out of it.
> 
> Aggressive horses who threaten to bite (I say threaten because there is always plenty of warning and no reason to let it actually get to the biting phase) - usually get responded to with my aggressive body posture and voice followed by some form of work or respect activity.
> 
> My stallion who caught me in the shoulder without warning with both jaws when I was not watching him, but working on his fence. (he had a mare in with him for the first time - STUPID ME), BUT I went after him like his world was coming down (despite the throbbing shoulder). There was a lot of loud screaming on my part (which freaked him out), me running him all over his pen (by tossing a rubber bucket toward him and waiving it around (all I had with me), and running him off of MY MARE. By the end of it, he was standing a distance from me and the mare, facing me, ears forward, licking his lips, looking like, "HOLY S**T, I better never do that again". I of course will be more careful to not recreate the situation that caused it, but I feel confident in our roles in our relationship once again (me being the head stallion, and him ranking below me and respecting me - which he shows on a daily basis). That was my ONLY incident with him.
> 
> I will not say that I have never smacked my horse. I am probably middle of the road. Not the hitting extreme of some on here, but not the hands off extreme either. I use spurs in my riding, I often carry a whip, especially with a horse I know may buck in some situations or refuse certain thing (that doesn't mean I beat the crap out of them ever). I try to use as many natural horsmanship techiques as possible to problem solve with my horses, but am not always hands off. I NEVER hit in anger or some other emotions - only in response to an action or as an aide asking for an action (tapping which spurs or crop, etc.)
> 
> As is clear, there are plenty of differing opinions on here, and that is mine.
Click to expand...


Hehe i know i said that this should end because obviously everyone will not agree but i read this and i wanted to post back so bad so now i am. 

Well first off if a horse kicks me and i'm walking by in the pasture you know dang right i'm gonna kick their butt. Not because i just wanted to but because of the plain fact that if i don't this horse will do it again and again thinking its ok. Just like how horses kick other horses. The lower rank horses don't kick the higher rank horses because the higher rank horses will kick their butt. And how are you supposed to build a trust relationship with this horse running all over you and kicking you and thinking its alright? So basically everything i did to Junior the horse that doesn't have enough trust for me :roll: 








reacts all on instinct and is scared of me because i hit him....is all wrong...i see. And my horse is oh so angry and resentful now. I should have known....

With the stepping on feet thing even if its by accident if you don't let him now that was too close to your space he'll do it again and therefore going back to i can run all over you.

When horse threaten to bite and i see it i make them know to stop my raising my voice or something and usually they do stop. Now if i get bitten and i was turned around or something or i didn't notice his warning because i was doing something else i still say he gets hit. Otherwise he thinks oh if she's not looking i can run over her once again. 

Now chasing a horse around with a bucket because they bit you was a little extreme i say you just turn around hit them and move on. He would have stopped or if he came back hit him harder and step torwards him like you were going to chase him but never should you actually chase your horse around a pasture with a bucket. 

Well that was just my couple words. Remember this is only my opinion i'm not being mean or saying anything to the person in any way k. I respect everyones opinion and i'm sure that some of the things this person does works for her. I just wanted to state my two cents worth was all.


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## LuLu

mylucalove said:


> Because eventually you just become a yip-yip dog to your horse. All bark and no bite. Believe me eventually they will start to ignore you. Especially if they are over bearing brutes.


Well i've been doing it ever since I got her - nearly 12 months ago, and it works :wink:


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## LuLu

.Delete. said:


> I get what you mean by words. But its the tone of your voice the horse reacts to, not the word its self.


That's what I was trying to say


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## .Delete.

Jr_lover said:


> Now chasing a horse around with a bucket because they bit you was a little extreme i say you just turn around hit them and move on. He would have stopped or if he came back hit him harder and step torwards him like you were going to chase him but never should you actually chase your horse around a pasture with a bucket.


I disagree, personally i would have done more. With his mouth completely on her shoulder? Oh my horse would have gotten it badddddddd. Sometimes you can just "turn around and hit them" sometimes they run. Then what do you do? Let them get away with it? Yell and scream at them but do nothing? I would have chased my horse around the pasture till it sweat bullets then stop for about 2min and stand there letting the horse think about it. Then approach the horse and pet it and rub it all over. But thats just me.


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## Avery

You really think that your horse is going to "think about it" after you've chased them around the pasture? No. They're horses, they live in the moment. You don't need to excessively punish them for bad behavior, just address it, and move on. They aren't going to reflect on their behavior because you give them a 2 minute break. And what is petting it and rubbing it all over going to do? I'd be surprised if the horse even let you approach it again.


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## Frog

My girl Faith kicks and bites, if I believed in not hitting, I don't think I would be here to tell you about it :? 

Each time she even threatens something at me she gets walloped, the only place I will not hit is around the eyes/ears etc. I watch my other mare with her and she is a lot more brutal than I could ever be and guess what, she's never copped it from Faith. 

My favourite piece of disciplinary equipment is a foot long piece of poly pipe it makes a loud sound but doesn't hurt much. Thankfully I haven't had to use it for a while cause Faith has been quite reasonable. But Polly is never too far away :wink:


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## horse_luver4e

My last instructor had this 2 year old stud colt, and all young horses nip and bite, well one day he was in his stall and she was passing by his stall and she leaned down to get something and he reached over and nibbled and bit at her hair but not aggressivly. And she turned around and flat out smacked him on the face real hard. I was horrified. You can't touch the colts face anymore, and yes he still bites. I never let anger get to me. I just make them work.


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## AKPaintLover

Jr_lover said:


> Now chasing a horse around with a bucket because they bit you was a little extreme i say you just turn around hit them and move on. He would have stopped or if he came back hit him harder and step torwards him like you were going to chase him but never should you actually chase your horse around a pasture with a bucket. .


Okay, first, I guess you needed to be there. The way I reacted was not too little or too much. My horse had his mouth around my shoulder and bit down. I had a mouth shaped bruise for weeks. He could have easily picked my up with that grip, which I have heard of happening with stallions on more than one occasion. 

Has no one here lunged a horse free or on line and used a lunge whip to raise up or whisk near them...Well, I had no lunge whip, I had a rubber bucket that was in my hand, so I waved that around, made my voice loud, and made him get away from the mare. Seeing as I was not in the position to "bite or Kick" him in any way as another stallion would do if challenged - I did the best I could to immitate a heard like situation at the time with my little self and the little rubber bucket in my hand.

I was not chasing my horse relentlessly, I was running him off of the mare (ownership over which was the problem in the first place) and keeping him away from her and myself until he stood at a distance looking at me attentively.

What do you know, after it was over, we made up immediately, and by golly, he let me approach him and he comes up to me with ears forward every single time that I enter his pen.


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## Jr_lover

I still say thats extreme horses only have a certain time period of knowing what they did wrong and just like said before they aren't gonna stop and think about it they are just keeping away from the thing that could cause harm. I'm just saying though that its a little extreme to chase them around. Heck Junior drug a girl to the ground because he used to charge so much but i never chased him around the pasture because of it. I hit him and moved on. But you know whatever worked for you i guess....


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## AKPaintLover

Jr_lover said:


> Well first off if a horse kicks me and i'm walking by in the pasture you know dang right i'm gonna kick their butt. Not because i just wanted to but because of the plain fact that if i don't this horse will do it again and again thinking its ok. Just like how horses kick other horses. The lower rank horses don't kick the higher rank horses because the higher rank horses will kick their butt. And how are you supposed to build a trust relationship with this horse running all over you and kicking you and thinking its alright?
> 
> With the stepping on feet thing even if its by accident if you don't let him now that was too close to your space he'll do it again and therefore going back to i can run all over you.
> 
> When horse threaten to bite and i see it i make them know to stop my raising my voice or something and usually they do stop. Now if i get bitten and i was turned around or something or i didn't notice his warning because i was doing something else i still say he gets hit. Otherwise he thinks oh if she's not looking i can run over her once again.


It is not fair for punishing an animal for reacting out of surprise. Dominance is another situation - some sort of discipline should take place (whether or not people agree it is beating the animal or some sort of movement activitiy). 

I can see talking sharply to let them know they are on your foot is fair game. BUT beating them for what is usually an accident, so they learn to watch their feet? How about we learn to watch our feet too? 

I understand the need to react if you for some reason need to discipline a horse for biting when you missed the warning (what do you think happened to me with the bucket?). 

I understand that horses bite and kick as part of their communication and establishment of dominance and so we must mimic that to some extent. BUT horses also use A LOT of body language to communicate and we should also try to mimic that. I also understand that we "hit" when using training aids sometimes by tapping with spurs or crops. 

BUT I hear so many of us saying we love our horses, respect them, care about them, want them to respect us. Why must we automatically go to the most extreme reaction for every behavior? I could only imagine what it would be like if people walked around punching each other in the face, slapping butts, kicking, etc.  Just and exteme there 

Like I said, I am not against all physical discipline, but I would never "beat" my horse to teach him a lesson. Like I said, I am pretty middle of the road - not exteme on either end of this argument.


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## Jr_lover

AKPaintLover said:


> Jr_lover said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well first off if a horse kicks me and i'm walking by in the pasture you know dang right i'm gonna kick their butt. Not because i just wanted to but because of the plain fact that if i don't this horse will do it again and again thinking its ok. Just like how horses kick other horses. The lower rank horses don't kick the higher rank horses because the higher rank horses will kick their butt. And how are you supposed to build a trust relationship with this horse running all over you and kicking you and thinking its alright?
> 
> With the stepping on feet thing even if its by accident if you don't let him now that was too close to your space he'll do it again and therefore going back to i can run all over you.
> 
> When horse threaten to bite and i see it i make them know to stop my raising my voice or something and usually they do stop. Now if i get bitten and i was turned around or something or i didn't notice his warning because i was doing something else i still say he gets hit. Otherwise he thinks oh if she's not looking i can run over her once again.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not fair for punishing an animal for reacting out of surprise. Dominance is another situation - some sort of discipline should take place (whether or not people agree it is beating the animal or some sort of movement activitiy).
> 
> I can see talking sharply to let them know they are on your foot is fair game. BUT beating them for what is usually an accident, so they learn to watch their feet? How about we learn to watch our feet too?
> 
> I understand the need to react if you for some reason need to discipline a horse for biting when you missed the warning (what do you think happened to me with the bucket?).
> 
> I understand that horses bite and kick as part of their communication and establishment of dominance and so we must mimic that to some extent. BUT horses also use A LOT of body language to communicate and we should also try to mimic that. I also understand that we "hit" when using training aids sometimes by tapping with spurs or crops.
> 
> BUT I hear so many of us saying we love our horses, respect them, care about them, want them to respect us. Why must we automatically go to the most extreme reaction for every behavior? I could only imagine what it would be like if people walked around punching each other in the face, slapping butts, kicking, etc.  Just and exteme there
> 
> Like I said, I am not against all physical discipline, but I would never "beat" my horse to teach him a lesson. Like I said, I am pretty middle of the road - not exteme on either end of this argument.
Click to expand...


uh yea most cases horses don't just randomly kick out because of an instinct....(i don't know what type of instincts your horse has but you might wanna get that checked :wink: ) And yea if i don't beat their butt they think its ok.

And when did i say i was gonna beat my horse for stepping on me? I'm only talking about telling him its my space a little slap on the shoulder. Thats not beating thats like when your parents grab your hand as a child and slap your wrist. 

I'm pretty sure nobody on here really goes to the extreme though in all honesty. Just like the bucket thing in my head it probably sounds worse than what it is. But i'm pretty sure no one just beats their horse on here for the heck of it. I know i don't.


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## AKPaintLover

Jr_lover said:


> uh yea most cases horses don't just randomly kick out because of an instinct....(i don't know what type of instincts your horse has but you might wanna get that checked :wink: ) And yea if i don't beat their butt they think its ok.
> .


MY horses have never kicked me or anyone. Nor have I ever been kicked by a horse, but knowing what I know about horses - they have limited defenses - kicking and biting. If someone comes up on their hind and they were not given a chance to see what it was, I would say that there is something wrong with that horse if it does not kick out to protect itself out of instinct. I don't make a habbit of running up on a horse's back end from their blind spot, but I guarentee peole have gotten kicked from doing just that. 

Jr Horse, none of what I said was directed specifically at you. I may have responded to you, but I tend to speak in gereralitites. I saw the term "beat" used somewhere on here and I saw the statement "I never hit my horse"...I was just merely joining in the conversation to state that I fall somewhere in the middle of those two. 

Also, anyone please *feel free to share with me a better way to IMMEDIATELY handle what happened with my stallion* - to maximize learning and minimize unecessary trauma to horse or human. I am not asking sarcastically. *If someone has a good step by step way of handling just that situation differently and better than I did please share so that I can add it to my tool box*. I am not someone who solicits advice but never accepts any...if I think it is better that what I have done or have been doing, I am by all means going to give it a shot. All though, I really hope that I never have to deal with another infraction like that again with my stallion!! I hope I learned enough from that one to keep similar things from happening in the future!


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## Jr_lover

horses don't kick by instinct maybe in a barn they will kick because they don't want you behind them. But never should a horse kick you randomly in a pasture. It is a humans instinct to defend themselves when feeling threatened but never should a human just lash out at another human that walks near them randomly and say it was instinct you would get in trouble am i right?


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## AKPaintLover

Okay


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## .Delete.

Avery said:


> And what is petting it and rubbing it all over going to do? I'd be surprised if the horse even let you approach it again.


Thats just it. Petting and rubbing is letting the horse know im not out to kill it. But claiming that horses live in the moment i find completely and utterly wrong. If horses lived in the moment they would never learn. For example, im teaching my 5yr old lead changes. He needs to "think" about what im telling him before he does it. How does a horse become head shy? By past experinces, they just don't drop something an forget all about it. It doesn't work like that. Maybe im not getting what your saying, but my impression is your saying that horses do it and forget about it. Which isn't completely true at all.


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## .Delete.

Jr_lover said:


> horses don't kick by instinct maybe in a barn they will kick because they don't want you behind them. But never should a horse kick you randomly in a pasture. It is a humans instinct to defend themselves when feeling threatened but never should a human just lash out at another human that walks near them randomly and say it was instinct you would get in trouble am i right?


Wrong. Kicking, biting, ect. Is all instinct, its not a "learned" habit. Horses create pecking orders by biting, kicking, ect. A horse could kick at you possibly because they feel you are in "their" territory and they don't want you around. My pony randomly kicks out at me all the time trying to test me. And with the human thing. We are HUMANS thats the difference. We are completely different from horses. Horses work of instinct. We as humans can rationalize, problem solve, think beyond natural instincts. When other animals such as horses cannot.


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## I Love Lane

AKPaintLover said:


> Also, anyone please *feel free to share with me a better way to IMMEDIATELY handle what happened with my stallion* - to maximize learning and minimize unecessary trauma to horse or human. I am not asking sarcastically. *If someone has a good step by step way of handling just that situation differently and better than I did please share so that I can add it to my tool box*. I am not someone who solicits advice but never accepts any...if I think it is better that what I have done or have been doing, I am by all means going to give it a shot. All though, I really hope that I never have to deal with another infraction like that again with my stallion!! I hope I learned enough from that one to keep similar things from happening in the future!


I had an almost identical situation where a young stud bit me when he intended to bite another horse at feed time and just as you did i hit him with the first available object in my hand which happened to be the bucket and chased him away as you did. He NEVER intended to bite me but that certainly didn't change the fact that he was going to get in trouble for it. I think that i would have acted the same way you did in your place AKPaintlover.


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## AKPaintLover

.Delete. said:


> Wrong. Kicking, biting, ect. Is all instinct, its not a "learned" habit. .


Thank you. That is most of what I was trying to get across  oh well


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## Spirithorse

I think an interesting observation is that I hear people say all the time "WHEN my horse kicks.......WHEN my horse bites......WHEN my horse crowds me, he gets smacked." IF PUNISHMENT IN THE FORM OF SMACKING WORKS, THEN WHY DOES THE BEHAVIOR *CONTINUE* AND IT'S A MATTER OF WHEN THE HORSE WILL DO SOMETHING? If smacking a horse for biting actually works, then why don't people say "My horse USED to bite?" 

My horse USED to kick out in fear, but now he doesn't because I built his confidence, I NEVER punished him for acting like a prey animal.......which is what he NATURALLY is. [/b]


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## AKPaintLover

I Love Lane said:


> I had an almost identical situation where a young stud bit me when he intended to bite another horse at feed time and just as you did i hit him with the first available object in my hand which happened to be the bucket and chased him away as you did. He NEVER intended to bite me but that certainly didn't change the fact that he was going to get in trouble for it. I think that i would have acted the same way you did in your place AKPaintlover.


Thanks for the feedback I Love Lane. I thought that I had responded appropriately to the situation, and was surprised by some of the feedback that I got about it. I really don't know how I could have responded differently except to do nothing, which I think would have been detrimental. 

I was really surprised by his behavior because it is SOOO out of his character for him, but I am used to him living alone, and we had put our mare in with him just days before. It goes to show those who think stallions are no different than other horses that they really are - even the nicest, sweetest, stallion with tons of training turn out, manners, and attention can still do the unexpected. 

I would say this was a situation where the horse was acting out of instinct (establishing dominance), but I think discipline of some sort is entirely necessary to help him learn. 

It is funny that people get so worked up about this topic, but I think it is interesting how this topic has gone on for sooo long. It must be a good topic to inspire so much discussion. I followed the first 8 pages of it before responding and it really doesn't seem to be going in circles even though there are many different opinions. 

Great topic Delete!!


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## jazzyrider

kitten_Val said:


> jazzyrider said:
> 
> 
> 
> not try to be argumentative here but its not always the words they get, its the tone of voice that they respond too
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely agree. Horses are really good about intonations (as well as dogs and cats). Usually it's enough for me to say firmly my alpha name to stop her chasing the paint from food. I never tried really scream at horse, but when I'm angry and talk to them they know something is wrong. I always try to use voice first, then continue with tap or light smack.
Click to expand...

exactly! you can say the same thing in three different tones and get a different response each time. often all i have to do is growl at my guys and they know they need to stop or else mums gunna start running around ranting with her hands in the air and thats really scary lol

_


Jr_lover said:



I still say thats extreme horses only have a certain time period of knowing what they did wrong and just like said before they aren't gonna stop and think about it they are just keeping away from the thing that could cause harm. I'm just saying though that its a little extreme to chase them around. Heck Junior drug a girl to the ground because he used to charge so much but i never chased him around the pasture because of it. I hit him and moved on. But you know whatever worked for you i guess....

Click to expand...

_of course they are going to keep away from the thing that can do them harm. why do you think they will stay away from the head stallion. because he will kick the living daylights of them otherwise. respect to a horse is admiring he who is mightier, tougher and stronger and he who will discipline him if he steps out of line. its like kids! i had a friend a few years ago who had a 2 year old little boy. she was so soft on him and he ran all over her. we spent all our time together and eventually she asked me if i could be bad cop as she was worried that if she told him off a lot he wouldnt lover her anymore (single mum). so i took over the disciplinary role and in no time at all that kid had attached himself to me and had a huge respect for me. so much so that she thought he didnt love her anymore anyways :roll: thing is, he respected and looked up to me after i started giving him some direction and guidance. after i had disciplined him for something he wouldnt go running to his mum for comfort, rather he wanted to come back to me and make sure everything was ok and i still loved him.

now i know horses arent humans and they think differently but the basic responses to certain things are the same. to get respect one must not only earn it but demand it by his actions. a person who isnt firm enough in their request for respect will inevitably not get it. 

i think in AKpaintlovers case she did exactly what she should have. especially with a stallion. if he had wanted to, he could have killed her and that is the exact scenario we try and avoid when dealing with these massive beasts. by what she did, she was saying 'hell no! there is no way you are going to do that and if you do ill put you right back in your place'.

1000lbs of horse...120 - 200lbs of human...you have to do what you can to keep yourself safe and solidify your place in your horses life. its just too dangerous not to...just my 2 cents [/b]

p.s. another 2 cents here lol it is a horses instinct to kick when startled. in the wild they are constantly on the defence. if they hear a noise close to them while their head is down grazing, then they are going to react in instinct which is to kick or flee. quite often they will kick and then flee. this is their defence. 

kicking, biting, rearing and striking and fleeing is instinctual and will happen in some form if a horse is scared. to think they wont is dillusional and puts the person thinking this in harms way. im not calling anyone specific dillusional so dont anyone get offended. i guess a better way to put it would be to say that living in a bubble of 'horses only kick if....' is leaving the person open to possible harm as that person will get a little too complacent and we all know that even the quietest of horses can react badly at any time and sometimes, completely out of character


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## jazzyrider

.Delete. said:


> I love to argue. Thats my excuse.


but this is a place for discussions. not arguing which has been happening a lot lately :roll:


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## kitten_Val

I agree with AKPaintLover. When you approach horse from back unexpectably you can get kicked. C'mon, they ARE horses and it's natural response. It's owner's (whoever) responsibility to avoid the situation like that. Whenever I approach mine from back (when they are eating by the fence) I start talking to them, so they'd know it's me coming. 

I heard the terrifying story about the owner who started to scream behind the horse back just to joke with horse (I guess). Horse kicked from fear, got girl into the chest.. killed her... The owner of the farm I've been working was given this horse after that sad accident. It was nice friendly horse, btw, which still lives at that farm and used as barrel horse..


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## Jr_lover

.Delete. said:


> Jr_lover said:
> 
> 
> 
> horses don't kick by instinct maybe in a barn they will kick because they don't want you behind them. But never should a horse kick you randomly in a pasture. It is a humans instinct to defend themselves when feeling threatened but never should a human just lash out at another human that walks near them randomly and say it was instinct you would get in trouble am i right?
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong. Kicking, biting, ect. Is all instinct, its not a "learned" habit. Horses create pecking orders by biting, kicking, ect. A horse could kick at you possibly because they feel you are in "their" territory and they don't want you around. My pony randomly kicks out at me all the time trying to test me. And with the human thing. We are HUMANS thats the difference. We are completely different from horses. Horses work of instinct. We as humans can rationalize, problem solve, think beyond natural instincts. When other animals such as horses cannot.
Click to expand...

thats why you smack them and let them know that you can get in their territory because your the boss and when they kick at you they are getting in your territory. Horses in the pasture do that to each other too. 

Look you know what i'm tired of explaining this point i guess you will believe what you want and i will believe what i want. Toodles.


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## .Delete.

But what is backing up going to teach a horse when it bites? Look, i tried natural horsemanship about 4 years ago and it didn't work for me. When ever my colt would bite i'd back him up. Eventually he would nip at me and back up on his own thinking it was a game. Natural Horsemanship isn't my thing.


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## Spirithorse

They key with that is to back them up until the expression on their face changes. And doing this without moving your feet is ideal.


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## .Delete.

Natural Horsemanship. It needs a new name.

Still, the whole backing up thing, doesn't work for me. I smack my horse when he bites. Thats what i do. My others don't bite, i smack them once int he mouth and they haven't done it since. Just my one because he is an overall angry pony.


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## Vidaloco

Vidaloco said:


> .Delete. said:
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't a "nibble on the fingers". My dad was leaning on the fence and my pony grabbed a chunk of his arm in his mouth, bruised him pretty bad. I feel he deserved that punch.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed  I had a horse take a chunk out of my arm, still have the scar. I couldnt get up off the ground (yes she knocked me on my butt) fast enough to react so I had to let it go. Horses don't understand punishment 2-3-or 10 minuites after the fact. If I had still been standing and in arms or legs length I would have kicked the S*&% out of her.
Click to expand...


Sorry I have to bring this point up again. This mare was normally sweet as sugar. Never did a mean thing and saved me from terrible falls on more than one occasion. Am I wrong in not punishing her even after many minutes have passed? I will add she was at liberty with several other mares, she was pregnant and she had on a blanket on a warmish day. I was just standing in the lot. She never did anything like this again.


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## Vidaloco

.Delete. said:


> Natural Horsemanship. It needs a new name.


I can't agree with that more  If "natural horsemanship" is trying to communicate with the horse the way they communicate with each other wouldn't we be kicking and biteing them all the time like they do with each other? :lol:


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## .Delete.

I have been bitten in the jaw before. I was petting my pony and his preg. mother charged at me. I was only 11 at the time and grabbed ahold of my jaw line and clamped down. I stod there (being 11) and began sobbing. I ran away, but she ran after me. I ran around the pasture screaming and crying trying to get away from a moody mare that i have never even touched before. I wasn't thinking straight so i didn't just open the gate and run out i hid behind round bales and such trying to get away from her. Finally i jumped up ontop of the round bale and curled up into a ball and cryed untill the owner of the barn came and got me. I'd have to stay i don't have very good experinces with horses in a pasture =[


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## Vidaloco

What a sad story  I'm glad you still enjoy horses after having that happen when so young.


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## .Delete.

A few days later i laughed about it. At my own stupidity. But i figured out where my pony got his attitude from.


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## mylucalove

I was training a "child's pony" at a barn i used to work at. He was always nippy and would get a smack for it. It didn't stop him. Then one day i was tacking up the mare in the stall next to his. He got jealous and reached over the wall and took a whole chunck out of my hand (ripped all the skin off my plam and wrist). As soon as it happened my mare had jumped back and i jumped over the stall wall and used my elbow to whale into that little beast. After that he has NEVER even thought about biting me again. I had to get 45 stitches. So yes a nippy horse or pony needs to be taught a lesson very early and quickly to prevent serious injury of people around it.


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## Jr_lover

Sry one last thing because i was reading and thought about this. Some of you guys are saying well when i did this with my horse it didn't work and this and that but think about it all horses are different what works with one horse may not work for another. Like at my barn Junior needs big pops to get him to pay attention or stop doing something while some other horses all you have to do is look at them aggresively and they quit and know they did something wrong. Some you tap on the shoulder and they freak its all about the horse. Just my last couple words because i'm not getting into this anymore. Bye bye again...


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## AKPaintLover

That is so true JR. Horses are definitely individuals who act differently. Just amongst my horses they take totally different levels of reprimand before they get the point.


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## drop_your_reins

From everything we put a horse through, they should understand physical punishment the best.. Two stallions will fight until death for leadership of the herd.. They are very physical if they are comfortable with you (nibbling, tickling you with their nose, nipping, licking) and physical when they aren't comfortable (striking, rearing, bucking, kicking, biting).. Horses understand physical signs much better than verbal or body language (although they understand that too, even if they pretend not too!) which is why riding is 100% communication, but I think the breakdown is probably somewhere around 70-80% physical, 10-20% mental, 10% voice (or less, you can ride a horse wonderfully without the use of your voice.. but for green horses, nervous horses, or horses lacking confidence.. Voice helps tremendously)

The most humane way to punish a horse is to take the crime, the intention, and the circumstances into consideration. Some horses are sensitive and need little more than a light smack and a harsh tone. Others (particularly unruly stallions), you could take a broom and smack them with it and they could care less and proceed to repeat the behavior. If the message gets through and it does no mental harm to the horse then it's fine. 

We all know horses who practically ask for a beating every once in a while (bratty ponies?).. Then I'm sure we've all handled horses who wouldn't hurt the fly on their backs (okay maybe the fly, but you know what I mean). Being extreme either way is only going to put you at risk in the end.. (being too nice to that bratty pony or being too harsh with the sensitive horse)


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## Harlee rides horses

I feel that hitting horses is alright considering a horse's size. Horses generally weigh 1000 pounds or greater and humans generally weigh 150 pounds, 150 pounds of human hitting a horse is nothing compared to a horse kicking another horse. Horses learn by physical action and telling a horse "no" isn't going to make them stop doing what it is they're doing. Say a horse bites you, flicking it, backing it up, telling it that it is wrong, turning it in a circle, and any other form of babying the situation isn't going to teach a horse that what they're doing is wrong. Now I'm not saying that anyone else's solution of whatever their horse is doing is wrong I'm just saying that I feel that a horse learns faster and it stays with them if you use physical action. Now on the other hand, I wouldn't be the one to completely hit the horse until it is head shy or anything along those lines, and I wouldn't hit a horse that has been abused and is still jittery and spooky unless they clearly deserved it, but while hitting a horse you have to know when to stop, I would say.


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## .Delete.

I completely agree with Harlee.


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## dinglehead

i'd definitly hit my horse if she was being bad like yesterday she attacked my older horse chased him into a pen and just started slamming him when I finally got them seperated i gave her a good smack and put her in her pen. but I would never just keep smacking her over and over.


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## .A.j.

Interesting topic, took about an hour to read the whole thing, very repetitive. 
I was surprised to see that not many of you use voice punishment. My trainer is very kind to her horses and has taught me to be gentle but to defend myself with hitting if absolutely necessary. 

For Example: If my horse ever made a move as if he planned on bitting me (hasn't happened yet, I had him 4 months) I would first use an aggressive voice to warn him (usually "hey"), and if he did it he would get a smack on the nose. 
He has so far never kicked me, and I hope he respects me enough not to, but even if he did out of fear or otherwise, he would get yelled at, within reason, and a good smack on the bum or belly. They need to learn to be careful around humans. 

Another horse at the barn I teach at can be extremely rude, he will attack another horse in the paddock even if he has to go through me to get them. One day he plowed right into me, so I yelled and gave him a whack on his side. He seems to give me much more respect now that I have asserted my dominance.

No need to be extremely aggressive unless it is an extreme situation.

My horse responds to my voice, whether kind or aggressive very well so I will always use that as a first attempt. I try to not hit unless people or other horses could be serious hurt by their actions.

Good idea for a topic, and it was nice to see other peoples opinions on the matter.


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## Avery

I agree, aj. I will usually warn my guelding with a "hey" if I think he is about to do something bad. Usually it'll get him to stop.


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## drop_your_reins

I use voice punishment if their doing something nonthreatening like making noise or rubbing their tails on the waterbucket or something like that. If a horse makes an attempt to bite me I get physical. I want to stop it before it happens, not punish them after I already have a bruise! If their just pinning their ears but don't make an attempt to bite, then I yell at them. (or I'll whip out my "fingergun" and say "PUT EM UP" lol.. I think its funny) But still, it depends on the horse. If my gelding gets nasty and tries to bite me.. he gets a slap on the nose. If he does it again he gets punched in the neck. But he would never! 

If the three year old filly tries to bite me (funny story actually) she generally just get yelled at.. MAYBE a light tap. (she's pretty sensitive) The other day she was in her stall in the barn alone, I was done working with her and everyone else was turned out- about to be brought in. Her stall has a 3/4 of a wall so she can stick her head out, but its to tall for her to extend her neck or anything. I came over to put her blanket on, and she was really upset that she was in alone and didn't have her dinner yet (she had plenty of hay though) and she was crying for her friends. I went to go pet her and she gave a nasty snap. I yelled at her and she ran into the corner of her stall. When I went to open the stall door.. she kind of looked like she was going to charge and took a couple threatening steps toward me. I closed the stall door. I went over to where she can stick her head out, and called her.. she came over and made another threatening swing with her head. I yelled at her more violently, I would have hit her if she didn't back into the corner of her stall. I opened her stall door and she was as sweet as pie. I don't know what got into her, I've never seen her that moody! Luckily it passed. WHEW.


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## RockinTheBit07

I actually dont "hit" my horse that much off of him. Now when i am riding him, i carry a crop, because he is extremely lazy and does not respond to my leg. My trainer has had me in the past hit my horse (well her horse i was leasing him) in between the ears because he was being a real big brat about going over a fence. I personally would never go that far to hit him on the head, i have seen what it can do to horses. A lesson horse got hit in the face with a crop and now she is blind in that eye :evil: that just ****es me off. im sorry, but i think that is wrong. Now Joe knows when he is in trouble, when i talk to him when i am not mad at him i call him "joey" or other nicknames adn talk to him in a baby voice, but when he has done something wrong i will say "Joe!" in a very harsh tone nad boy does he back off! lol. He has only once tried to kick me and that was partly my fault, but ever since then he has more trust for me. I dont want my horse to fear me, i want him to respect me.


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## deannatwb

*Re: Hitting Horses*

I think a strategic "poke" can do wonders. Sometimes it's a safety issue, and you have to do what you have to do.


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## izzie

i dont relay agree with hitting horses but sometimes a smack on the neck is nessesary when there not doing as there told. although it depends how hard you hit them


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## jazzyrider

ok so if ive got this figured right we all agree, apart from one, that smacking at the exact time of issues is ok as long as the smack is within reason and not bordering on abuse. must we continue to go around in circles on this. i mean no offence to the new members who have posted as your comments have been wonderful  i just think there is only so far this topic can go and its reaching its limits now


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## My horse is Captain

When Harlee first started teaching me about horses and how to ride, I used to think it was terribly horribly cruel to hit a horse, ever. After being in company with horses after so long, I began to realize that it's actually quite necessary. You can't let a horse walk all over you and I agree, they aren't going to understand that telling them "no" means not to do that again. So thus, I agree with what Harlee said, although personally I'm still a little hesitant.


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## Abby

I wouldn't say I hit my horse but I punish him with force. Lets say I"m picking his hoof and he rips it out of my hand. Many people would smack the horses shoulder with their hand (or crop given they had one.) I don't like that. I saw a girl do that so many times to her horse it was afraid to put its foot down it would hold it up for ever. You had to force her to put it down physically or make her walk and she was just panicking for a good minute after word to make sure she wouldn't get smacked. It took a long time to get the mare like this and I can't believe it happened and went on that long without someone telling her off.

When my horse does that, I just press myself hard against his should and pull the foot back up and resume working and every time he tried to pull his foot away or knee me in the gut (ouch!) I push harder against his side and make him hold it up that much longer after I was done and when I said "Okay" and only when I said "Okay" could he put his foot down. 

When my horse steps on my foot you better believe I'm going to ram him off of it. I can't help but react by shoving into his side to get him off and fast! If he bites me, I'm going to retaliate. If it bites me and then whips his head away, I'm not going to walk over there and smack his nose, I'm react by biting back and instantly. One thing I will NEVER do is hit my horse in the head. By biting back I usually just give him a swift tap in the side, with a cupped hand to make more sound than necessary instead of actually hurting him. He hasn't bitten me for a LONG time and he used to bite my butt and shoulder when I cleaned his hooves. 

So I guess I "hit" my horse but I think I more encourage him to not ever do what I he did.


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## wild_spot

I think it depends on the horse. If a horse is being stubborn or nasty, then i would definately hit it. there is a mare at my place who is constantly in your space and will bite or barge when she can, and a good smack on the nose is the only thing that will prevent you from getting hurt.
One of my other horses is simply oversurious and friendly, and a shove or a smack on the chest is need to keep him off you. I definately hit him if he headbuts, as he is going to be a childs horse and if he did it to a small child he could seriously hurt them.

on the other hand, i have a 16 hand stockhorse, who is very timid around people. if you attempt to hit him, he becomes extremely defensive and is liable to attack out of fear. the farrier we used to use got frustrated with him flicking at flies, so he dug him in the ribs, vodka shot forward and kicked him in the thigh. this is a horse you CANNOT use violence with, he simply retreats into a different state of mind. I use a raised voice to discipline him, or if he gets pushy i will lunge him in small circles until he submits,. he is now an extrmeley docile horse to deal with.

like i said, it depends on the horse.


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## EquiSoup

Wowee...anyone bored yet? I can't believe this is still being discussed. Impressive.


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## mudypony

I too believe that the key to disciplining a horse is timing. I use a crop when riding as a reinforcement. First I ask with my leg and if he doesn't respond by following my command then I increase the pressure of my leg aid. Then if he doesn't respond then I use the leg aid and the crop at the same time.

Also, if there is a horse that tries to charge me or bite me then I will give him a smack on the chest right when the horse is doing something wrong. If the horse stops before I have time to punish him then I won't punish him because then he won't know what he is doing wrong. I will never, ever hit a horse in the face though as I think that causes head shyness.


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## Flickergurl15

i think hittiing horses is rude. you can handle your horse without hitting them. people wonder why horses are mean to them, its cause how they treat them. hitting them only makes the horse more mean.


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## .Delete.

I punish my horse by hitting him. He is one of the nicest horses you can ever meet.


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## jazzyrider

Flickergurl15 said:


> i think hittiing horses is rude. you can handle your horse without hitting them. people wonder why horses are mean to them, its cause how they treat them. hitting them only makes the horse more mean.


i have to disagree with that. all my horses get a smack if they do something worthy of a smack and none of them hold a grudge. its when horses are beaten or the disciplining is over the top that a horse will start to resent the person and turn mean etc

in moderation and when used at an appropriate time, some physical discipline is beneficial. its like in a herd. if a horse challenges the lead stallion he will getting the living daylights kicked out of him. this reinforces the stallions place as herd leader which is exactly what we NEED to be to our horse. proper discipline only gains your horses respect. and when you really think about it we, by smacking a horse at the appropriate level could never, ever inflict the harm or pain that being booted by a cranky stallion or protective broodmare would.


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## BluMagic

Horses are like children...in a way. Dicsipline. I don't think that a horse could go on nicely without having direction about what's right and wrong...JMO


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## tim

Here's a good statistic.

70% of parents say they believe corporal punishment is a viable way to deal with misbehavior (on varying levels.)
90% of parents say they have used it before.

So that means 20% of parents dont agree with corporal punishment but use it anyways...

I tend to think this is true for horses. Some of you guys who say "I never hit my horses" probably have at some point.


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## jazzyrider

^^^ i agree  even if its been a split second reaction at some point, it happens. there is certainly no shame in anyone admitting it. the only shame would lie in admitting that you beat your horses or desciplined in an over the top fashion


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## LuLu

When I first got my horse, I did punish her physically if she was beng pushy or rude, but over the past couple of months I have realised that it wasn't getting me anywhere and that she wasn't getting any better! So I stopped the physical punishment and she has become so much better! If she ever does get a bit cranky with me, I growl at her and say NO in a very firm voice, and she stops immediately! Personally, any horse I had, I wouldn't hit him/her, but that's just me!


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## Cowgirl74

I haven't read through all of the posts so I may be repeating something that someone else has already said. 

I don't hit my horses in everyday normal training. Although if you watch them in the pasture, if one horse does something another doesn't like, they get kicked or "hit" in their way.

For me, the only thing that hitting does is cause your horse to fear you. I've had rescue ponies tremble in fear when I walked into their stall with a manure fork to clean it out. Obviously they were hit with it at one time or another.

BUT.... if my horse does something that endangers me or anyone around me, they won't do it again. Safety comes first at all times. So if that means being a bit forceful with an unruly horse, then that's what I do.


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## msun523

*It's about discipline*

There's a right way to train a horse and then there's a wrong way. Ultimately, it's discipline. Do you want your horse to fear you (or anyone w/a manure fork) when you walk into his stall? Or do you want your horse to see you as a guardian and trainer?

Hitting can only go so far.

What do you guys think?


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## equineangel91

I think its all up to discretion. I carry a crop. Just carrying it usually improves my horses behavior because he sees it says to himself " awww man shes gonna be all serious". I've cropped him hard only once, because he kicked out at the fence. Since then, a gentle tap will get the message across quite clearly, more of a warning thatn anything else. I can just pat him with it and he remembers its there. I feel like if a horse is disciplined properly in the beginning, they will be much more accepting and susceptible to it in the future. 

A horse like mine, who is shown very clearly and very quickly his actions are wrong, will respond well. He was "hit" once that i can recall, and since then he responds appropriately which much smaller reprimands. A small tap sends the message and he accepts the message without fighting. 

Its like a child thats been spanked.


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## CopperHorse

I havent read all the post as this looks to be an old thread. A horse doesnt need to be hit or smacked for no reason. But I do believe in reprimands, I have no problem smacking a horse if he oversteps his boundaries or gets rude or mean. I am a firm believer in using only as much force that is required to get the point accross.


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## Spirithorse

Here's something to think about....if you have to constantly smack your horse for "bad behavior" is it really working? No. If the horse continues the behavior, even at random times in the future, something the person was doing did not work. Because the problem didn't GO AWAY.


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## lucyjay11

when my horse tries to barge past me, i stand there and dont move and hold him back, i dont let him move untill he is stood still, this is a tried and tested method by the parellis, you have to become similiar to a horse in there behaviour so that they accept you as a friend and not someone with authority and and so that they respect you, if your horse tries to bite you then a tap on the nose should be enough, only lightly though, if your horse kicks you out of nastiness then kick there hoof, they still feel it yet it doesnt hurt them, yoiu only have to hit your horse lightly for it to realise that its done something wrong, yes my way is a more patient and slower approach but it gets your horse in a partnership with you and not afraid of you which is how horses work in the field, there is always a dominent mare or stallion etc but the others dont stand up to this horse as they are afraid of it, this is not what you want, yoiu want your horse to see you as a friend...


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## lucyjay11

also, your horse will never bite or kick out of nastiness, theres always something deeper that caused it, like trauma, being mis treated, our job as owners is to find out what this problem is and solve it in order to help our horses, yoiu can do it, it just takes time, every horse can be healed, so no i dont agree with hitting a horse, i only accept tapping, horses can feel flies landing on there back so imagine what a smack would feel like, we dont like it when we're kicked etc so why would they like it if we hit them, a gentle tap should be enough


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## Spirithorse

Tapping a horse on the nose if they bite is NOT a method of Parelli.


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## bolderthing

lucyjay11 said:


> also, your horse will never bite or kick out of nastiness, *theres always something deeper that caused it, like trauma, being mis treated,* our job as owners is to find out what this problem is and solve it in order to help our horses, yoiu can do it, it just takes time, every horse can be healed, so no i dont agree with hitting a horse, i only accept tapping, horses can feel flies landing on there back so imagine what a smack would feel like, we dont like it when we're kicked etc so why would they like it if we hit them, a gentle tap should be enough


I'm sorry, that is a load of hoohah. Horses will bite and kick other horses in the field for no reason other then they didn't move out of the way. There is no underlying trauma there. 

It has been my experience that green horses, or horses that have been babied (or any horses that feel they are more leadership material then you) have taken the role of "boss horse" and when they bite or strike, it is because you haven't, or have yet to, establish the new boundaries. It doesn't have to be established though a hit when undesirable behaviour is presented, but when I see pinned ears and a head snaking towards me, you can bet someone's going to get burned, and it won't be me. 

Which ties into this statement, I feel:


> Here's something to think about....if you have to constantly smack your horse for "bad behavior" is it really working? No. If the horse continues the behavior, even at random times in the future, something the person was doing did not work. Because the problem didn't GO AWAY.


I have always believed that there is a 3 second period after a behaviour to correct to praise said behviour. Likewise, if you do happen to get bit, or kicked, and you are stunned/unable to reprimand, and you come back in 5 minutes, heck, even 30 seconds, with intentions to smack that horse, then you are in the wrong. Horses don't associate like people do, they won't put together the smack 5 minutes later with the bite they gave you 5 minutes ago.

If you smack a horse for biting, and you have to repeat it multiple times, then you are more then likely reprimanding out of this time period, which will more then likely create confusion and probably give rise to other behaviours (ie, headshy, general fear).

However, I also believe that as the human, the onus is on YOU to read your horse and to redirect behaviours like biting and kicking through distractions or whatever, to the best of your ability BEFORE the bite or kick happens.


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## Spirithorse

In my experience smacking does not work. Before I stopped smacking horses and changed my opinion on the matter if a horse tried to bite me I would react instantly and smack him. Did the horse stop trying to bite me? No. Why? Because he was trying to tell me something and I was ignoring him and smacking him showed him that I didn't care about his opinions. Horses ALWAYS give you warning before they bite. If someone gets bitten, it's really their own fault because they weren't paying attention. So due to the person's lack of attention the horse shouldn't be punished for it. How else are they suppossed to communicate with us if we aren't paying attention to their opinions? 

Biting and kicking can be avoided in the first place. Plain and simple. That's what it comes down to is prevention. How can you earn your horse's trust and respect in a way that he understands and that is natural to him where he never feels like biting or kicking.


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## azarni

> your horse will never bite or kick out of nastiness, theres always something deeper that caused it, like trauma, being mis treated





> I'm sorry, that is a load of hoohah. Horses will bite and kick other horses in the field for no reason other then they didn't move out of the way. There is no underlying trauma there.


I completely agree with bolderthing. Whenever my lesson horse was particularily energetic, he would nip at my arm when I was leading him simply because he was cheeky and full of beans. He has never been mistreated.
A quick reprimand - usually a loud "no!" and a light smack on the shoulder, corrected him. He has not bitten me for a few months now. There was no "underlying trauma" at all. He thought he could push me around, and was quickly taught otherwise. Problem solved.

Of course, this correction doesn't work with all horses. Kemmel (my lesson horse) wasn't being dangerously agressive.

And, true, some horses _have_ had experiences in the past that led them to be agressive. That is a completely different matter than discussing whether hitting a horse for punishment is necessary, and should be approached from a whole different angle.


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## EternalSun

Feel free to disagree, but "beating a horse over the head with a 2x4" or "punching a pony in the face" is physical abuse and an abuse of power regardless of the situation. End of story.

If you had a three year old child, who, while throwing a tantrum came over and kicked your leg angrily, would you "punch" him? No. It solves nothing.


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## close2prfct

I have 4 horses, each have their own distinct personalities, My appendix is the boss she's the alpha mare and she lets the others know it if she gets too aggressive like at feeding time voice commands work well with her she stops her chasing and trying to bite the other horses and comes to her bucket and waits for me to feed her, Jazz is another story she's all of 13h and is a major bully I have had to smack her on the nose for biting, pushing and trying to knock the bucket out of my hands. Justice is the baby and he's uncut but he is the best behaved out of all of them he waits patiently for his feed and never rushes or gets in the way. Misty our newest addition is a kicker but I don't know how much of that is because she is pregnant. Today she tried to cow kick me when I was feeling around on her belly was it my fault? yes I know she is sensitive there did I correct her for it? no however a few days ago she struck out at me with her front leg she got smacked on the offending leg with the whip and told "NO" so far she hasn't done it again. 
Horses are like every other living being that we come in contact with or are supposed to be domesticated I should say, they have to learn their boundaries. I don't believe in beating a horse or anything else for that matter but if I were to have a horse or any other animal/person whatever come at me in a way that would cause me bodily injury or death you better believe I will pick up whatever I have to to defend myself. I know people who hit their horses because they don't do what they want not because they are acting bad or aggressive but because they don't turn a certain way or something to me that is just being a bully & serves no purpose. 
I think it all comes down to common sense and knowing when a horse is being a bully or if it is genuinely afraid of something.


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## bolderthing

Spirithorse said:


> In my experience smacking does not work. Before I stopped smacking horses and changed my opinion on the matter if a horse tried to bite me I would react instantly and smack him. Did the horse stop trying to bite me? No. Why? Because he was trying to tell me something and I was ignoring him and smacking him showed him that I didn't care about his opinions. *Horses ALWAYS give you warning before they bite. If someone gets bitten, it's really their own fault because they weren't paying attention. So due to the person's lack of attention the horse shouldn't be punished for it.* How else are they suppossed to communicate with us if we aren't paying attention to their opinions?
> 
> Biting and kicking can be avoided in the first place. Plain and simple. That's what it comes down to is prevention. How can you earn your horse's trust and respect in a way that he understands and that is natural to him where he never feels like biting or kicking.



That is completely unacceptable. The damage done to you by a bite or a kick is considerable. While the onus is on you to pay attention to your horse and listen to what they tell you, if perchance you aren't looking at them (as they speak largely by body language, so if you aren't looking, how can you see pinned ears, how can you see that hairy eyeball??), or you are unexperienced (and don't say that if you're unexperienced you shouldn't be alone with a horse, while it's basic knowledge, I'm willing to bet that everyone has, at least once when unexperienced been left alone with a horse), and you get bit or kicked, a simple "No jasper, don't do that, or I'm not going to scratch your itchy place" is not even comparable to a well timed smack. Obviously there is a difference between a smack for a reprimand, and beating your horse.

There are alternate ways for a horse to express displeasure. I will not, for my safety and for the safety of others, allow my horse to continue to think that it's alright to treat people the way they'd treat another horse. 

I think it's safer to agree to disagree, as I look at hitting more from an establishing safety point of view and you look at it from a more anthropomorphic point of view.



> I think it all comes down to common sense and knowing when a horse is being a bully or if it is genuinely afraid of something.


Bingo.


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## whitetrashwarmblood

jazzyrider said:


> not try to be argumentative here but its not always the words they get, its the tone of voice that they respond too


Yup. If a horse starts to pin his ears & tries to bite me I'll yell at them. Not "hey now, be good." more like "HEY, YOU BETTER THINK TWICE ABOUT THAT!". I know he can't understand what I'm saying, but if you make a big deal about it he's gonna be like "Well dang, I don't want to mess with her". I'm not saying this works with every horse, I'm sure there are a few who would careless about the yelling and just bite you. That's when I give them a good smack on the nose. 
Now if a foal was trying to nibble on my fingers, I'll flick them in the nose. Doesn't hurt them, but it's more of a surprise. But you gotta be quick about it. You can't flick them in the nose after a few minutes, it has to be JUST after or during the nibbling. You don't want the foal to be head shy, but you want him to understand that nibbling is not ok. Same when foals will rear up at you, I've been taught to push them over. Does it work? Well it only took one time for all the foals who've reared up at me to get pushed over & understand I'm alpha so don't try that again.
I've never had a horse try to bite my arm off or try to attack me in their stall, but I'll tell you right now that I would not let that slide. The biter would get a good whack on the nose. And if I had a lead rope/whip while being attacked that horse would get a good whack on the butt. Or even a bucket, like someone said when she got bit by her stallion, I'll just throw a bucket at them. You're being attacked, and quite possibly risking your life. You won't care about natural horsemanship when a horse has you pinned in the corner of his stall, trying to kick the living daylights out of you. Just what I think.


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## jessetjames

if my horse kicks/bites me or tries to ill give them a big slap under the belly. i dont have a problem with slapping if they go over bored like that because they are bigger then me.


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## Spirithorse

bolderthing said:


> That is completely unacceptable. The damage done to you by a bite or a kick is considerable. While the onus is on you to pay attention to your horse and listen to what they tell you, if perchance you aren't looking at them (as they speak largely by body language, so if you aren't looking, how can you see pinned ears, how can you see that hairy eyeball??), or you are unexperienced (and don't say that if you're unexperienced you shouldn't be alone with a horse, while it's basic knowledge, I'm willing to bet that everyone has, at least once when unexperienced been left alone with a horse), and you get bit or kicked, a simple "No jasper, don't do that, or I'm not going to scratch your itchy place" is not even comparable to a well timed smack.
> 
> *****************************************************
> 
> See, this is my point. If I have my horse's trust and respect he WILL NOT even think about biting or kicking me. So I don't have to worry about it. My warmblood, whom I got a year ago, came to be a labeled biter and kicker and any time they had him out in the hallway they put a muzzle on him b/c he would bite anyone who walked by. If he tried to bite of course everyone would smack him...and it only made him worse. He has never once bitten me. Ever. I made sure I first got his respect of my space and then made sure he trusted me. Of course I took precautions by backing him out of my space if I needed to do something, which is setting things up for success, but now I don't even do that because I don't have to worry about it anymore. The thought never enters his mind. And really it's very silly for you to think that I'm a push over with my horses and discipline....saying "Oh I won't scratch your itchy spot." Please. My horses are VERY well behaved, just because I don't smack a horse doesn't mean they don't have manners


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## hotreddun

I think it depends on the horse...

Now striking with an object of any kind is absolutely out of the question. But an open handed belly slap is fine if the situation calls for it. My older guy totally respects me and loves me...but he's a button pusher. And he knows sometimes he wants to try and get away with something. He has bad hocks so I can't do that whole crazy natural horsemanship back them a mile thing everytime he acts up. I slap him on his belly and the issue is closed.:?

But some horses have more sensitive personalities. Every situation should be dealt with on a one on one basis.


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## Spirithorse

How is backing the horse up a "NH thing?" And how is it crazy? Just curious...


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## hotreddun

Spirithorse said:


> How is backing the horse up a "NH thing?" And how is it crazy? Just curious...


Yo Yo Game I believe its called..."back them until their face changes"...is how I was referring to backing as a NH thing. And for us its just "crazy" because my horse is an old fart with arthritic hocks and stifles...so that is not a solution for us. An open handed belly slap solves the problem without any pain to him. Of course its not like I'm arching back and wailing on him or anything...I guess that's where one would need to define a slap, tap, or pat.:lol: I've seen some old cowboys "petting" their horses after a good ride much harder than I slap. :lol:


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## Spirithorse

The Yo-Yo Game itself isn't backing them up until the look on their face changes. That alone is a strategy you can use.


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## twogeldings

Yes, I hit ALL my horses. But I don't beat them. 


Throwing head up, dancing around, refusing to be haltered? 
First, a firm no or 'Sammy/Loki!' Sometimes they listen.
Then, if still not listening, a sharp thwack on the nose and another firm command. Afterwards, I give them a pat, halter them, and go about my business. It is rare that I have to do such a thing, but sometimes it's unavoidable. I do not tolerate having to chase after the horse with the halter. Both of my older geldings are very, very halter broke, and I do expect them to focus on me when I am haltering them. 
I expect such bad manners from my three year, untrained gelding, whom I do not strike because he simply does not know any better, and is acting out of instinct.

Another example. Throwing, tossing head, being impatient when being unhaltered. Same method. Great results. NO head shyness. Again, I have no tolerance for having a nylon halter yanked repeatedly out of my hands, or having to chase it.

Yet another. My gelding, Loki, is very impatient. When I'm trying to unlock the gate (we double lock the gate of whatever paddock/pasture he's in because he will either unlock or wreck the gate otherwise when he feels he should be let in or out). He will bump into it, try to open it with his nose, resulting in pinched, painful fingers. I use the same warning first, smack later, and it works well.


When do I use prompt punishment? 

Bumping with the nose,
Biting
Kicking
Pushing
Anything that is dangerous, or highly disrespectful, such as the above. 

I also use a prompt punishment method with Loki and Sammy when they are tied. They will dance around, pull on the ropes, etc. Basicly, refuse to remain still because they are impatient resulting in a dangerous environment for both horse and groom. A reminder with a crop on the shoulder or hindquarter stops this. A quick flick will do. No need to whip them. They ARE trained to stand tied and I EXPECT them to. 

Loki put four huge knots in his mane, which are downright impossible to untangle on a mobile horse. I used the broad, back of the brush I was using to tap him on the shoulder when he began to fidget. I didn't 'smack' him with it, just a pop and a 'No'. No harder than it I were bumping it against my own leg. He did hold still and I restored his mane to it's former glory.


Horses are big. I have had the occasional day were I got out to the barn late and Loki and/or Sam have went right out their paddock gate and straight into the pasture because of some confusion in the dark. Have you ever tried to stop a horse intent on grass? Impossible unless your lucky enough to catch them by the nose. Forget putting your weight on the chest/shoulder. 


So yes. I do hit my horses.


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## Keirston

Ok, I have read every single post here...some of these answers are insane! These are BIG animals. 1,000+ pounds of pure raw muscle and attitude! They need to know that we can push back just as hard. If you hit me, I'll say Ow. For that little smack, it takes 10x the force to let them know that wasn't a "Good Boy" pat. Don't judge us who hit our horses. Each horse is different. Only the person who knows the horse can possible know what works best! Perfect example.My mare Peach, is the most willing thing out there. She turns the wrong way, you tell her "Not" and she moves the right way again. You can leave her alone for 2 years, and tack her up, and she is the same horse. My favorite boy Flash on the other hand, is a horse that needs to be worked everyday, or I have a fight on my hands to follow simple rules. You know...the "Walk, not Run". He is also the horse that will be all lovey, ears up, nickering, then bite you and never have given any sign. Kicking, you have to be quick. He'll be standing there nicely, and the next thing you know, there are 2 feet flying at you. Again...no warning. I haven't been able to ride him for 2 months to clear up his stomach ulcers. I got on him today finally and we worked 3 hours of me asking for him to walk. By the time he finally wore himself out prancing instead of what I asked, I worked 5 minutes more and got off of him to end on a good note. Took him over to be untacked and haltered him. While walking back to the barn, he thought it was a good idea to rear up and run me over. I jerked him back around, smacked him with the lead 3 times, and we worked another hour on ground manners. I asked him to lunge on the lead. He kicked at me. I whacked his butt with the lead. So, he didn't kick at me again. Asked him to walk where he should be, and he reared up again. I clipped on the stud chain (not like how most people do it...I go under as I thing over the nose or in the mouth is way overboard) I gave 3 tugs. Not much, but enough to let him know it was there. He reared again, and decided he doesn't like rearing with his halter getting tighter on his nose. I lunged him again. And guess what?? He stopped being a jerk. He gave a big sigh and laid his head on my shoulder to tell me he was sorry. We stood there for 10 minutes cuddling and me telling him that I forgive him, but not to do it again. Did I do anything that wasn't needed? No. I did what I had to do to get a horse back in control. I've had both of these horses from the day they were born. I bottle fed them, and trained them myself. Both trained the same way. So why 2 different attitudes?? Because they are 2 different horses. Peach is 17, and Flash is 16. Full brother and sister. Still 2 different horses. If 2 kids aren't the same, why does everyone assume that all horses are the same? Why such negative comments to those who do have to hit their horses to get their attention? No, if the horse was behaving, then don't hit them. That I can understand. But when they are acting out, you need to put your foot down and find what your horse responds to.

Sorry for such a long venting post. I just can't stand it when people act as if all horses are the same and call those that have to take more extreme measures to keep ourselves safe, cruel. We don't deserve that.


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## Losthope236

Honestly I have no problem with hitting my horse. She is a much larger and stronger animal and can take hits that are much harder than I can ever give her. Will I hit her in the head, no, unless she was trying to bite me or being rude. But the hit would be measured and a warning given before hand just like I always do. Thankfully I've never had to hit her in the head, she's not tried to bite me unless I was doing something she wasn't comfortable with. Then she got an elbow in the nose, or a tap on the nose or generally because it happens when I do her feet I just make her yeild her hindend and she'll stand still and stops trying to pull her feet from my grip. 
Now when she's trying to kick me thats a different story. I will not tolerate her kicking or theatening to kick me. The last time she kicked me she was two inches from causing me to have surgery. She got a hard smack in the butt from my stick and was run hard, and when ever she changed direction and showed me her butt it got smacked. It was a completly disrespectful behavior and I was tied of it (it wasn't the first time she'd kicked at me,). She never turned her butt to me after that. She did the same when tied and theatened to kick me twice, and she got a loud no and a smack on the rump both times. 
It depends on the horse of course, some I do hit some I don't. Like for instance my horses neighbor is constantly trying to bite me or my horse. When I'm standing trying to brush my horse and I feel her behind me I either lift a leg like I'm about to kick her or elbow or reach back and smack her on the nose. If she wasn't sticking her head through the fence everytime I wouldn't care. If I was facing her she gets a little smack or I push her head onto her side or make her move off with a firm 'no bite'. But usually lifting my leg is enough to get her to think twice and move off.
I also work with a lot of rescue horses and other peoples horses so depending on the horse and its owner I won't hit them unless it puts me in danger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Speed Racer

This thread is 2 years old, folks. Was there really any reason to bring it back up? :?


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## Samie4444

It depends on what you're hitting your horse for. If a horse is trying to be dominant over you, no, it's not abuse, it's necessary. Horses need to respect people. If you're hitting your horse because he did something wrong or (for example) gets antsy in or before a barrel pattern, then that is wrong. Horses act the way they do under saddle because of habits and how you have trained them. If you're going to hit them for that, you might as well be hitting yourself.


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## .Delete.

Speed Racer said:


> This thread is 2 years old, folks. Was there really any reason to bring it back up? :?


Agreed


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## LoganandMe

Well it really depends on the situation. My pony went through a phase of literally trying to charge me so when she did that a smack on the chest isn't bad. I would never hit my horses face though. If they turned around to bite me and their face hit my elbow thats different though....yeah I guess it all kind of depends. I don't hit my horse everyday, I actually very rarely do I think the last time I did was when she charged me which was maybe 9-10 months ago.


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## LoganandMe

Sorry just saw the other comments about it being 2 years old.


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## gypsygirl

i ont ee why people cant comment even though the thread is old, there are a lot of different people than were here 2yrs ago...if you dont wantto talk about it anymore, then dont.

i personally hit my horses if they invade my space or bite, but never for being scared or confused


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## azhorseluvr1222

horse_luver4e said:


> If a horse bites me I'll just grab there lip and twist it and say no. I have heard that if you smack a horse when it bites you it just has a game with it and see's how fast it can bite you without getting smacked.


That is the truth, a horse where my horse is kept is like that. He only does it to me, the feeling is starting to be mutual, anyway my father in law just said smack him and so I did now he tries to get me and get out of reach as fast as he can. So I might have to try your tip on getting him not to bite. Him and I did get off to a bad start plus I don't think he likes women so much... we are working on it :think:


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## Sillyfilly

Having seen both extremes, I think the most important thing when disciplining horses is keeping it well balanced. 

Once I was tacking up a young horse who was trying it on with me and kept trying to swing round and kick me. I persistantly kept pushing him back, however his owner just stood there, wagging her finger at him saying 'now now, stop it' it the nicest tone of voice ever. She had clearly taught him just how to walk all over her. After about the 20th time of pushing him back, i eventually gave him a hard dig in the ribs and shouted 'BEHAVE!' he stopped. 

And then a totally different scenario, I was riding one day with a woman when the horse I was on (another youngster) started playing up. I was quite a novice at the time and this woman, who owned the horse, told me to get off and she then proceeded to beat it with her whip. I think she lost her temper, because I have never seen her do this before or after. However I almost cried watching because it was just too much of a punishment. 

Although I don't have anything against hitting horses (within reason), I do try to avoid it as much as I can and whenever I do need to get physical I push them or give them an elbowing rather than slap or punch them as this is unnecessary. I always back up any physical contact with a voice command, eg if the horse goes to bite me I shove their nose out of the way and say 'YOU DARE!' at the same time. If I was in real danger then I would use whatever force needed to get the horse out of the way, because if a horse is attacking you and you are in danger then the only way you can react is in self defence. 

I also agree with using the whip as a riding aid only as if you use it as a punishment then the horse will associate it with that and 'backing up your leg' with the whip might end up getting messed up. The only time I will use a whip other than when riding is if there is is crowd of bargy horses at the gate and I'll give them a tap on the bum to send them up the field. 

To be honest, I think that punishing horses is like punishing kids, you have to be firm but fair and if you must give them a smack, don't go overboard otherwise it turns into abuse. Its also important that you horse understands the difference between punishment and rewards, for example if a horse is pawing the ground and you give it a dig in the shoulder, tell it to stop, and it then stops, give him a pat and praise him.


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## Quedeme

Just putting my word in because I've also seen both sides of extreme. As others have said in here, it's actually a learning aid to have a physical correction. Depending on the horse, it could be a firm touch or an all out smack/hit. I have 2 VERY different horses and I don't like to get aggressive with them, but sometimes it's needed. My mare is laid back and pretty darn calm, but sometimes she wants to 'play' with me. This has only started recently. I need a ladder or something to mount and when I'm just about ready to mount, she'll move...not something she normally does. I did ths with her SEVERAL times, then finally got fed up, got off, got in her face, smacked her HARD on the shoulder, told her to behave, gave her a moment to chill, and guess what...no more games. Now, when I first started training her, let me tell you what, hitting her was USELESS. It was so counterproductive it was just pointless. It would freak her out and get her SO worked up that I had to learn a different way to work with her for respect. And I found out what worked and now she's darn near perfect (to me anyway lol). Now, my gelding is opposite. He NEEDS that physical correction or he will literally walk all over you. Not attack, not to be mean, just disrespectful because he's not been worked with much. I tried teaching him to walk 'politely' by just tugging on his halter, digging the butt of a crop in his chest, making him back up, nothing worked. What finally worked? Smacking him on the chest. Guess what....he rarely oversteps me now. Same when working with him to get out of my space. I'd stand there and push or wave my arms at him, nothing...in fact he would push back into me and nearly pushed me right off my feet a couple times. A few good whacks and he no longer does that. 

I watched a trainer work with him before who didn't believe in physical reprimands, and he pushed into her, walked over her, bucked, and basically showed hs rear end. She tired to just let hm 'walk it out'. His mind is NOT on listening when he's doing that. Now, smack him, make him stand still, and make him do what you're asking him to do, slowly....and he's very attentive, careful, respectful and behaved. Now, he's still VERY green, not even broke yet, but he's a good example of a horse who craves that physical dominance. On the other hand, if you get TOO in hs face, TOO aggressive, he just freaks out, throws up his head, sweats till he's dripping, and is mentally GONE. 

Now that I've written a small novel, the point of it all is simply knowing the horse and knowing the difference between correction, and abuse. Much like the difference from spanking a child or not. Children can't trample you though...or stop your heart with one well placed kick...or shatter your skull without hardly trying.


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