# why do so many people object to Tomb Thumbs and dislike them?



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

To save me quite a bit of typing, here is a link to a page that describes it. They are basically unbalanced and just ill thought out bits. The issue is with the simple mechanics of it. If you have had success with them, then you are one of the lucky ones. As for me, I just hate the feel that they give. Due to so many openly mobile pieces, there is just too much going on to get a good feel from the horse's mouth in my hands. I could probably get away with using one and not end up with the problems that so many people do, but I wouldn't because I believe there are much better bitting options out there.


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## RATHER BE RIDING (Dec 7, 2010)

As with so many things horse, in the wrong hands, you can cause great pain and harm to your horse. In my opinion this is one of them. If you know what you are doing and it works for you, fine. But, if you do not know what you are doing this bit can be extremely harsh and painful to your horse.


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

Another thing to point out that many of us often don't understand the difference between and english and a western tom thumb.. When I first came to the forum I didn't understand it either, but that is because I am from an english background and to me, a tomthumb was just a pelham with short shanks.. not a western curb bit 

E


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## GeorgieNChex (Mar 12, 2011)

Yes, all of this i get...but if you think about it, a Tom Thumb is not really that harsh and harmful to a horse...i mean, look at all the other bits out there people dont see as 'harmful' to horses. To me it is silly to say a Tom Thumb is a 'no, no'. I have used it one MANY horses, some that i used for cow work, some i used as reiners, and for my pleasure horse. Too me, it is a simple up grade from a snaffle. It doesn't rip their mouths, and you do not need a well designed bit to 'feel' what's going on in their mouth. I mean, even a snaffle can be a 'harsh' bit if used improperly. If you have soft hands and are a skilled rider, then no matter what bit you use, it will not cause harm. And plus, the bit is a simple reminder to horses when they do not listen to your seat, a aid only to be used lightly. And the use of the curb is to intensify the 'bite' of the bit, but as i said, a Tom Thumb used with a loose curb isn't 'harsh' to me especially if i use my seat, not my hands, to ride...
In my opinion of course. We all have them. 
and thanks for the insight. 
Lena


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

You see, the problem with a tom thumb is that it has all the harshness of a curb bit and combines it with the harshness of a snaffle's "nutcracker" effect. A snaffle does not use the leverage when applying the pinching nutcracker effect. Add leverage to tha pinching makes for a very tough bit.

Ask yourself if your horses do well because they like the bit... or are they afraid of having the broken mouthpiece nucracker their jaw while also adding tough curb leverage? Many horses behave because of the pain, not because it is a good bit.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

For me, it is less about the "pain" reaction. I have the experience to be able to use one successfully but, to me, they just have no subtlety, no feel, no connection. They are sold as a cheap bit and that is what they are to me.........a cheap bit, no different from those $5 aluminum bits that come with nylon bridle packages.

I just don't see much point in using something like that when I can get better results faster, and with happier horses, in other bits.

But yes, in hands that are even barely harsh, this bit has the capability to inflict excruciating pain (even damage) on a horse's mouth.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Check out the link in my signature....I've written a rather lengthy treatise on the subject of bits, including a section on why TT's deserve all the bad reputation they get.

Here's that part, but I think the rest is worth a read, too.

Tom Thumbs and Argentine Snaffles

The Tom Thumb is a bit that gets a bad rap for being very harsh--stories have been passed around of people breaking their horse's jaw with it. Now, that seems a little exaggerated to me (I can't imagine how much pressure they'd have to be exerting on the reins to cause that much damage), and while I don't consider the TT to be particularly cruel, I just plain don't like it for a variety of reasons. Many people do use and love this bit, swearing by it and using it for training colts. To each his own, but my personal opinion is that there are _far_ better bits on the market.










This, right here, is a true Tom Thumb--and the worst one in existence. The straight shanks don't give the horse any warning at all--the second you apply pressure, they pop right around, snatching the curb and activating the nutcracker effect with the mouthpiece. It also makes direct reining difficult--the straight shanks, combined with the way the mouthpiece attaches to the shanks (no freedom whatsoever), mean that when you pull on one side, the entire bit twists rather painfully in the horses mouth. The curved shank versions aren't quite as bad, but it's still quite difficult for the rider to convey the intended cue to the horse, no matter how light or heavy his or her hands are. This bit just doesn't have a whole lot of finesse in the horse's mouth--it's all or nothing. And any efforts at direct reining will likely result in confusion for the horse. While many horses do ride well in a TT, this often has far more to do with the kindness of the horse's temperament than the quality of the bit.

Now compare the above bit to this, your standard Argentine Snaffle.










At first glance, they look very similar. But the Argentine is much better balanced. Look at the curved shanks--these make it less harsh, and a slight touch of the rein will give a horse warning that a cue is coming, giving the horse time to react. Also, the joint between the two parts of the mouthpiece is finished better, so it will be less likely to pinch. Most importantly, the attachment from mouthpiece/shank is not fixed in the vertical direction. This gives both parts some freedom and independent movement. Slight jingles in the reins are often all that is needed to give a cue and thus get the desired response from the horse without the yanking that is often required with a Tom Thumb. Ask any horse--most will respond so much better to bits of this type.

Of course, the "snaffle" mouthpiece in both bits has the potential to "nutcracker" and pinch, so be careful with that. A three-piece mouth is more desireable in most cases.


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## GeorgieNChex (Mar 12, 2011)

My horses do not do what i ask because of pain or fear, but because i have a bond with them and are extremely well trained.
I can ride in a rope halter on all of my horses (except my new one) and have the same result. I simply use the Tom Thumb 9with a VERY loose curb) as a aid, as said before, to lightly and gently, ask a cue if they don't respond to my legs and seat. My horses are never in pain from me, due to bits or any other issue on my part. 
But i do understand that they can be harsh now, and i get that green riders, and aggressive ones, should NOT be able to use them. 
But in reality, i still look at theses other bits and go, WT*. 
Any bit can be harsh in my eyes, and any bit with a curb can harm a horse, and so could a snaffle, if you yank, pull, and snatch on a horses mouth.
Thanks.
Lena


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The problem I have with TTs is that they are straight-shanked, and gave no curve to the mouthpiece. Even your run-of-the-mill LR snaffles have some curvature to the mouth, thus being more comfortable to the horse. TTs generally don't have that curvature, which adds to their harshness.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Bubba, I see those two bits as FUNDAMENTALLY the same as well as FUNCTIONALLY the same.

You Argentine has much better "finishing" and is more attractively designed. It does have a slightly more curved mouthpiece to allow some tongue relief, and it can allow a rein to be attached at the mouthpiece to allow it to be used as a simple snaffle (I've never seen it used thusly).

However, it is still a shanked leverage curb. The bend in the shanks does not hugely change the action. It still incorporates a curb strap allowing the addition of leverage to the "nutcracker" effect.

I don't quite understand your statement about the shank swiveling as different since both bits have a shank that can swivel, I believe. At least the Argentines I have seen swivel.

While the Argentine is a definitely more attractive bit, I see the functional differences as being minimal.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Have you ever held each in your hands? There is a fundamental looseness at the finishing cheek-mouthpiece attachment. Think a gag bit, only to the absolute minimal degree possible. This allows for far subtler cues to be transmitted via the reins. The looseness, when combined with a (less severe) curved shank and a mouthpiece which allows for more rotation around the central joint...

Lemme just draw you a picture.


















While the two bits may each be a "snaffle mouth" with a curb shank--so the same theoretical design/action--in practice they work quite differently, and horses respond accordingly.

The "nutcracker effect," in the sense that most people use it, is a myth. No "snaffle-mouthed" bit--shanked or otherwise--ever jabs into a horse's palate. Instead, in the case of a true snaffle, the mouthpiece pulls into and crushes the horse's tongue. In a curb, the mouthpiece rotates slightly before applying said tongue pressure, actually giving more warning that a cue is coming.

Edit: Also, an Argentine shank will swivel to the side a whole lot better, and with far less effort, than a TT. All the TT's I've messed with have been very "creaky" and slow to respond....around all joints.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

In the over forty years I have been a professional rider/trainer I have handled many of both (though never used either). I simply disagree with what you consider "the differences". They are fundamentally the same bit. They both swivel and, though the finishing is better in the Argentine (why it's pricier) the joint is almost the same=same effect. That minor curve in the shank also would have little change in the action, IMHO.

The nutcracker does NOT refer to the bit hitting the roof of the palate, BTW. It refers to the bit pinching the bars of the mouth. It is very much not a myth.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> In the over forty years I have been a professional rider/trainer I have handled many of both (though never used either). I simply disagree with what you consider "the differences". They are fundamentally the same bit. They both swivel and, though the finishing is better in the Argentine (why it's pricier) the joint is almost the same=same effect. That minor curve in the shank also would have little change in the action, IMHO.


Then I strongly suggest you go purchase a pair and try each out before passing judgment. I really haven't noticed a price difference, either. There are cheap $20 Argentines which are poorly made and far from my first choice, but still far preferable to a similarly-priced Tom Thumb.



> The nutcracker does NOT refer to the bit hitting the roof of the palate, BTW. It refers to the bit pinching the bars of the mouth. It is very much not a myth.


But a lot of people use the term to refer to the bit collapsing into a point and ramming into the roof of the mouth, which frankly doesn't happen. Of course the pinching of the bars will occur, and while this is maximized in a "snaffle mouth," you'll still manage to get some of the same action in a French link or anything similar. 










But even at that, you either have to have a horse with a significant degree of vertical flexion, or be pulling downward with the reins, to truly access the bars. If you're pulling straight back you'll bring the mouthpiece inward against the corners of the lips, which while not pleasant and probably not preferable, is a different action entirely. It's difficult for a "snaffle" mouthpiece to fold and pinch, anyway, unless you are pulling _inward_ on the reins--if your hands are set wider than the cheek pieces of the bit, it's not going to collapse in the horse's mouth; it's just going to press into tongue, lips, and bars with firm pressure, but not a jointed pinch.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

bubba13 said:


> Then I strongly suggest you go purchase a pair and try each out before passing judgment.
> 
> *I have no intention of using either bit. I have absolutely no use for either. Just as I have little use for most of the bits you posted information on.
> *
> ...


What is the purpose of the illustration? What point are you trying to illustrate?
Whatever......not into arguing this point any more. It is beating a dead....


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Its been studied recently, and the nutcracker effect is very real - pressure on the bars, and protrusion upwards into the palate - HOWEVER it has also been shown that the horse's tongue depresses to correct for the pressure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

While I'm _*not *_an expert in any way, I don't see the difference either except those extra rings in middle (well they can be curved differently etc., but on other hand all bits I've seen are curved in different way depending on maker).

BTW, I googled up the both of them out of interest to see what other people think: 

Tom Thumb / Argentine Bits
Ask A Trainer


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Allison Finch said:


> What is the purpose of the illustration? What point are you trying to illustrate?
> Whatever......not into arguing this point any more. It is beating a dead....


Well, that's violent and a smidge uncalled for. :shock:

The point of the image was to emphasize the location of the bars--it's harder to access them severely with the bit, any bit, than you might think. As an experiment after riding yesterday evening, in fact, I stuck my finger in my horse's mouth beneath her Argentine snaffle and pulled back on the reins on the side where my finger was. When I placed my finger at the corner of the lips, the pressure (even pain) was significant--but this same effect is true for any and every bit that has any type of mouthpiece, and I'm certainly hoping that it was magnified by hard bone as opposed to soft tissue against metal, as I think may have been the case. When I placed my finger on the bars, however, the pressure was only moderate, and there was no pain at all. I could not, of course, experiment on the tongue without choking my horse and/or getting bitten.



JustDressageIt said:


> Its been studied recently, and the nutcracker effect is very real - pressure on the bars, and protrusion upwards into the palate - HOWEVER it has also been shown that the horse's tongue depresses to correct for the pressure.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What study are you referring to? The one several years back where they took radiographs of the bit in the horse's mouth and discovered that the bit never contacted the palate, but did indeed press firmly into the tongue?



kitten_Val said:


> While I'm _*not *_an expert in any way, I don't see the difference either except those extra rings in middle (well they can be curved differently etc., but on other hand all bits I've seen are curved in different way depending on maker).
> 
> BTW, I googled up the both of them out of interest to see what other people think:
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, I question putting _any_ kind of curb bit on a 3-year-old, as the second article suggests.

Of course the two bits work on similar principles--no one is denying that. Neither of them is for breaking young horses, and either can be abused in the wrong hands. But one is a truly awful communication tool and one is actually pretty good, although admittedly a dogbone mouthpiece would indeed improve the Argentine. But do you see how, in the ring of the Argentine, there is a tiny bit of extra space surrounding the cannon of the mouthpiece....just a tiny hair of freedom of movement? See how tight it is on the Tom Thumb? _That_, combined with the curved shanks and less-pinching mouthpiece, is what makes all the difference. If you pull on one side of a Tom Thumb, the whole bit moves with it almost like a solid curb bit. The mouthpiece twists and pinches all at once, cues are mangled and unclear. Not so for the Argentine--you have the ability for independent side actions, and thus far better direct reining or lateral movement. Pull on one rein, and _that side only _collapses and tightens, giving a far clearer cue and also allowing for subtler, gentler, softer communication with the horse.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I give up.:?

Bubba, you win through sheer persistance of misinformation.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> What study are you referring to? The one several years back where they took radiographs of the bit in the horse's mouth and discovered that the bit never contacted the palate, but did indeed press firmly into the tongue?


The study was published in Horse Sport about a year ago or so. It was quite the interesting read. Their point was that there WAS protrusion into the palate, HOWEVER the horse depressed its tongue to alleviate the discomfort. The study consisted of a few different types of snaffles - single joint, double joint, and I believe a couple others such as the Sprenger and Billy Allen mouthpiece. 
It was a very interesting read, and reaffirmed my double jointed bit addiction.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

The Argentine snaffle does NOT allow for independent side action. No single jointed mouthpiece will allow for independent side action. Double jointed bits allow for a slight bit of independent action, but even they aren't completely independent; there's a point where the middle piece and other side are affected.
Single jointed bits don't have independent side action. You pick up one side of the bit, and it influences the other side. No way around that.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Did the study in question include radiographs, Dressage? I'd provide the one I've read, but unfortunately, it's now in archive vaults and costs $40 to retrieve...which I am not willing to cough up! And in the terms of independent side action you mean, well, hate to say that no bit truly has it. You know, one joint's connected to the next and all, so you can't ever pull on one side of _any_ bit without somehow moving the other...


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Independent side action refers to the rotation of the bit, such as when you go to pick up a shoulder. Take a single jointed bit, and rotate one side - it doesn't take much rotation for the one side to start to rotate the other side. Double jointed bits are better, and Billy Allen mouthpieces offer completely independent side action - you can rotate one side of the bit and it will never influence the other side of the mouth.
Regarding the study, it wasn't just radiographs, it was live-action imaging, thought I can't remember exactly what type of imaging. The researchers observed video of the tongue depressing, not just a single photo radiograph. I can't remember the month that the article was published, but I'm confident saying it was in Horse Sport within the past couple years.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

If you have a link to the article I'd be very interested in reading it. 

I wish I had a Tom Thumb now, so I could try to take a video of the action of each (though I'm not sure how I'd rig up an experimental, visible apparatus, at that....).


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Do you understand what I'm saying about independent side action, though? It has nothing to do with pulling on the bit sideways - that makes no sends, NO bit would be independent if that was how you judged side action - it has everything to do with *rotation*. Next time you're at a tack store, hold a bit by its rings in your hands, and rotate one side upwards. The single joint won't rotate much at all before the other side gets influenced; you have a bit more play with the double joint, and a Billy Allen (Myler) bit has complete independent side action.
If I can dig up that article, I will, but I have no idea what to search.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Here, Allie. I found this picture the other day and it shows very well the independent side motion you are talking about. It's the bottom, right picture.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Thank you so much Jen!! That's exactly it. Virtually nil with a single jointed bit.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

If a horse has a low palette then a single jointed bit WILL stab the roof of the mouth.

My connie objected to single jointed bits for exactly that reason. He has a low palette, fleshy bars and a fleshy tongue. Any pressure on a singe jointed bit ment driving the point into the roof of his mouth and I only ever rode him in a single jointed bit once, its rather disconcerting when a horse sarts bleeding from its mouth!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I've known a few horses that couldn't stand single-jointed bits. The horse in my avatar would head-toss and completely object to contact in a single joint. Night and day between a single joint and a double.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

You're welcome.

The way that I see it, yes, there are some minute differences between the TT and the AS, however, those differences are so minuscule that they really don't change the movement enough to see a difference. There really isn't that much space between a horse's tongue and their palate. If the curb chain is kept tighter like it should be on a normal curb bit, then it is entirely possible for the joint of the snaffle to jab them in the roof of their mouth (one of the reasons why it is so common to see horses in those bits gaping their mouths). 

On the other hand, if the curb chain is kept loose like so many people are convinced it should be, then the entire bit pivots in the horse's mouth and smashes their tongue between their lower jaw and the bit.

Neither action is something that I would consider "desirable" in a bit.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

JustDressageIt said:


> Do you understand what I'm saying about independent side action, though? It has nothing to do with pulling on the bit sideways - that makes no sends, NO bit would be independent if that was how you judged side action - it has everything to do with *rotation*. Next time you're at a tack store, hold a bit by its rings in your hands, and rotate one side upwards. The single joint won't rotate much at all before the other side gets influenced; you have a bit more play with the double joint, and a Billy Allen (Myler) bit has complete independent side action.
> If I can dig up that article, I will, but I have no idea what to search.


Of course I understand. The Mylers were where I got the terminology from. However, it is very difficult to pull on the reins in such a way to activate the rotation of the mouthpiece but not influence the other parts of the bit, as in pulling to the side or whatnot. This is of course easiest to achieve with the "Billy Allen" style mouth, but even at that you must pull directly back/up. As for any other style of mouthpiece which does not have a central barrel, this effect is virtually impossible. The closest you could get would perhaps be with a chain, where the degree of rotation is dissipated along the length of the individual links.

Of course the "snaffle" mouth does not have the same degree of freedom in rotation as a French link or a chain or a Billy Allen. But the "snaffle" in an Argentine has far more play--and thus indepence, finesse, and subtlety--when pair with an Argentine versus a Tom Thumb shank. Why? A better finished, contoured, looser-jointed mouthpiece, more freely swinging shanks, and play at the mouthpiece/shank interchange. That is all I have been saying all along. The "snaffle" mouth, when coupled with a curb bit, is not inherently evil. Maybe that's the central problem and the source of all of our disagreement. I don't believe that the Argentine is the best bit out there. Far from it. But I use and will continue to use an Argentine on some horses because it is effective, easy to understand, and not abusive in the right hands. I cannot say any of the same for a TT.



faye said:


> If a horse has a low palette then a single jointed bit WILL stab the roof of the mouth.
> 
> My connie objected to single jointed bits for exactly that reason. He has a low palette, fleshy bars and a fleshy tongue. Any pressure on a singe jointed bit ment driving the point into the roof of his mouth and I only ever rode him in a single jointed bit once, its rather disconcerting when a horse sarts bleeding from its mouth!


Now, do you have any proof for any of this? Are you sure the blood was not coming from the lips or tongue as opposed to the palate? Regardless, it would require an extreme amount of pressure on the reins, an actually sharp bit, or a pre-existing injury to cause bleeding. Were you using a snaffle or a curb?



smrobs said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> The way that I see it, yes, there are some minute differences between the TT and the AS, however, those differences are so minuscule that they really don't change the movement enough to see a difference. There really isn't that much space between a horse's tongue and their palate. If the curb chain is kept tighter like it should be on a normal curb bit, then it is entirely possible for the joint of the snaffle to jab them in the roof of their mouth (one of the reasons why it is so common to see horses in those bits gaping their mouths).
> 
> ...


The horse would have to raise his tongue upwards to push the joint into the palate. Of course this is possible, and maybe some horses do it in response to pressure/pain in the mouth. But the bit acting alone, with a relaxed tongue, cannot fold around its central joint to form a sharp point unless the reins are pulled inward, narrower than the set of the cheeks. This isn't coming very clearly in words, and once again I lament my lack of video demonstration. But when you pull slightly outward on the reins, as is done in all normal riding, the bit should actually flatten rather than forming a raised point.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

i was using a standard eggbut snaffle on him and yes he got very strong and planted his ears up my nostrils simply because he was in pain and running from it.

The blood was deffinatly coming from the palette as there was a wound on there when the vet examined him 30 mins later. No wounds to lips or tongue.
The Roof of the mouth has lots of small blood vessels in them and the skin is not massivly thick. blood also mixes with the saliva so a little bit can look like an awful lot.

I hate single jointed bits. I will ever use one now, always 2 or more links. Reeco is currently in a losenge bit and pride in a french link, Harvey is in a cambridge magic bit.

Pull outwards? who pulls outwards on a bit.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

faye said:


> Pull outwards? who pulls outwards on a bit.


That's what I was wondering. The only people I have ever seen pull outward on the bit is WP riders when they are tuning up/training their horses. But they also carry their hands extremely low while they are doing that. Nobody rides that way during regular riding. Around here, you would get laughed at hard core for riding with your hands at the proper height but with them far enough apart that you pull outward on the bit. You would look like you had chicken wings for arms. Riding with them out away from your body take all stability away from your arms as well; you can't feel and react to the horse the way you need to.

I don't know about you, bubba, but since my horses neck rein, I only ride with one hand. Therefore the shanks are pulled straight back when I pull on the reins. Therefore, yes, the bit would collapse to the point of jabbing them in the palate. The only way to prevent it with a bit like this is to put a slobber bar between the rein rings, but that defeats the entire purpose of having swivel shanks if you are just going to immobilize them with a metal bar.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

bubba13 said:


> Of course I understand. The Mylers were where I got the terminology from. However, it is very difficult to pull on the reins in such a way to activate the rotation of the mouthpiece but not influence the other parts of the bit, as in pulling to the side or whatnot. This is of course easiest to achieve with the "Billy Allen" style mouth, but even at that you must pull directly back/up. As for any other style of mouthpiece which does not have a central barrel, this effect is virtually impossible. The closest you could get would perhaps be with a chain, where the degree of rotation is dissipated along the length of the individual links.
> 
> Of course the "snaffle" mouth does not have the same degree of freedom in rotation as a French link or a chain or a Billy Allen. But the "snaffle" in an Argentine has far more play--and thus indepence, finesse, and subtlety--when pair with an Argentine versus a Tom Thumb shank. Why? A better finished, contoured, looser-jointed mouthpiece, more freely swinging shanks, and play at the mouthpiece/shank interchange. That is all I have been saying all along. The "snaffle" mouth, when coupled with a curb bit, is not inherently evil. Maybe that's the central problem and the source of all of our disagreement. I don't believe that the Argentine is the best bit out there. Far from it. But I use and will continue to use an Argentine on some horses because it is effective, easy to understand, and not abusive in the right hands. I cannot say any of the same for a TT.


Okay, okay. It seemed like you did not understand what I was saying, so I tried to clarify. I still think you're missing my point. 
When you say "snaffle" mouthpiece and then referring to it as being ONLY a single joint, you are incorrect. Snaffle means a 1:1 ratio; the mouthpiece really doesn't matter. That's why I try to clarify what I mean by saying "single joint," "double joint," etc. Saying "snaffle mouth" means nothing. Snaffle refers to the cheekpiece, and whether or not there is leverage. Your Argentine bit does not have a single snaffle component; the mouthpiece is single jointed... it is not a snaffle whatsoever. You should not be riding with two hands in this bit. 
I don't see much of a difference between the Argentine bit and a TT. They both perform the same function, and are very similar in design. Very minute differences. The shanks on an Argentine and TT both swivel back and front, so I'm not sure where you're getting more finesse in one versus the other. 
Forgive me if I seem argumentative; your videos showed me that you still have a lot to learn when it comes to training and the action of bits.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Bear with me. I made a video last night to post and share, but my home Internet is currently very sketchy--after 3 hours it was 38% uploaded, and then the whole thing crashed and I lost all the progress. So it could be awhile 'til I actually get it up, but I'll keep trying.



> Pull outwards? who pulls outwards on a bit.


When riding two-handed, everyone does. So long as your hands are wider apart than the cheek pieces (and they will be most of the time), you are effectively pulling outwards.



> I don't know about you, bubba, but since my horses neck rein, I only ride with one hand. Therefore the shanks are pulled straight back when I pull on the reins. Therefore, yes, the bit would collapse to the point of jabbing them in the palate. The only way to prevent it with a bit like this is to put a slobber bar between the rein rings, but that defeats the entire purpose of having swivel shanks if you are just going to immobilize them with a metal bar.


An excerpt from the video description I intend to post:

"In regards to folding and pinching of the mouthpiece into a palate-poking “V,” unfortunately I was not able to give a good visual demonstration of this effect. Keep in mind, as stated, that the bit will behave slightly differently in the organic environment of the horse’s mouth, interacting with tongue, bars, lips, jaw, and so on. The movement of the horse’s mouth certainly has the ability to change the orientation of the bit, and this could lead to some pinching with any mouthpiece, but more so with a two-piece “snaffle” mouth like this. However, in a curb bit like an Argentine or a TT, when the reins are held two-handed for direct-reining, the hands are wider apart than the cheeks of the bit (and the cheeks are further held apart by the very size and structure of the horse’s mouth), so the bit will not fold in on itself. Even when riding with one hand, the reins are separated by the width of the horse’s neck, and thus greatly minimize the inward force pulling the shanks together, and thus folding the bit. Pulling directly back, harshly, while riding one-handed with a centrally-positioned rein could perhaps begin to crush the bit inwards, but this is very poor riding and should be avoided regardless of the choice of bit. When neck-reining (and even when direct-reining), too, the primary control of speed, stop/go, and turning should come from the rider’s seat and legs and the “push” of the reins across the neck—not from bit pressure, again regardless of bit choice."




> Okay, okay. It seemed like you did not understand what I was saying, so I tried to clarify. I still think you're missing my point.
> When you say "snaffle" mouthpiece and then referring to it as being ONLY a single joint, you are incorrect. Snaffle means a 1:1 ratio; the mouthpiece really doesn't matter. That's why I try to clarify what I mean by saying "single joint," "double joint," etc. Saying "snaffle mouth" means nothing. Snaffle refers to the cheekpiece, and whether or not there is leverage. Your Argentine bit does not have a single snaffle component; the mouthpiece is single jointed... it is not a snaffle whatsoever.




Ah, but common vernacular terminology would disagree. While it may be a misnomer, clinicians, trainers, tack catalogs, videos, and magazines alike refer to a single-jointed mouthpiece as a "snaffle"--hence the name Argentine snaffle for a broken curb. No, it's not the proper term, but it's a common and accepted one.




> You should not be riding with two hands in this bit.


 
I disagree, and hopefully the video, once posted, will clarify.




> I don't see much of a difference between the Argentine bit and a TT. They both perform the same function, and are very similar in design. Very minute differences. The shanks on an Argentine and TT both swivel back and front, so I'm not sure where you're getting more finesse in one versus the other.





> Forgive me if I seem argumentative; your videos showed me that you still have a lot to learn when it comes to training and the action of bits.




While I may be far from a world-class trainer, I have certainly researched the action of bits, talking in person with such people as the Myler family and very well-respected local dressage and barrel racing trainers (I actually got a very flattering and unexpected compliment from the region's foremost H/J & dressage just yesterday about my bitting articles--I was floored). I do, actually, know of what I speak.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

:roll: Whatever you want to believe.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Amen.

It always bothers me when an amateur with limited exposure wants to be the next expert. Some if us ARE world class trainers, and we might take exceptions to the flat questionable statements that you are making. Talking to a few trainers, especially a family who have a vested interest in promoting a particular type of bit, does not make an expert. Years and years of observation and experimentation gets my vote every time.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I give up. Shouldn't have even started in the first place. 
Snaffle bit refers to 1:1 ratio of applied pressure to pressure felt on the bit. If it is a greater than 1:1 ratio, it isn't a snaffle. Mislabeling curbs as snaffles is nothing more than an incorrect marketing scheme - people see the word snaffle and they think it's a good bit regardless. Obviously that trick works. 
Allison and Jen hit the nail on the head with their posts, and I'll follow suit. 
You have a lot to learn. Hell I thought I was hot stuff and knew it all when I was your age. Keep your mind open, you're still so young. You'll have the wake-up call sooner or later; I hope you're up for the lesson when it comes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

JustDressageIt said:


> Okay, okay. It seemed like you did not understand what I was saying, so I tried to clarify. I still think you're missing my point.
> When you say "snaffle" mouthpiece and then referring to it as being ONLY a single joint, you are incorrect. Snaffle means a 1:1 ratio; the mouthpiece really doesn't matter. That's why I try to clarify what I mean by saying "single joint," "double joint," etc. Saying "snaffle mouth" means nothing. Snaffle refers to the cheekpiece, and whether or not there is leverage. Your Argentine bit does not have a single snaffle component; the mouthpiece is single jointed... it is not a snaffle whatsoever. You should not be riding with two hands in this bit.
> I don't see much of a difference between the Argentine bit and a TT. They both perform the same function, and are very similar in design. Very minute differences. The shanks on an Argentine and TT both swivel back and front, so I'm not sure where you're getting more finesse in one versus the other.
> Forgive me if I seem argumentative; your videos showed me that you still have a lot to learn when it comes to training and the action of bits.


 I agree with you, almost totally. You are right about the snaffle bit being 1:1. Any bit that has a shank is a curb bit. A curb bit applies force under the jaw with the curb chain or strap and in the mouth. A snaffle only applies pressure in the mouth. A strap on a snaffle is only to hold the bit from going through the mouth. The shank on a curb bit multiplies the force applied by the rider. The longer the shank, the more force is applied by the bit.

I also don't see much of where the Argentine and the Tom Thumb are different. They both function the same. Personally, I use a true snaffle(no shank) or a double jointed curb bit with short shanks, depending on the horse.

The part I don't agree with is about not riding with two hands. It depends on the horse and the rider. On a better trained horse, I will ride one handed. But if the horse decides to act up, or if we encounter harder terrain, I wouldn't hesitate to change to two for a while. If an inexperienced rider is on the horse, I have them use both hands until they have a better understanding of riding. I also explain to them the importance of being as light as possible. I was going to say that I also would ride a green horse with two hands but the horse would be using a snaffle instead.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)




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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

If you are going to compare two different bits and how they move, you can't change other variables. Everything but the bit needs to be the same. Why did you take the reins off the Tom Thumb type? And if you wanted to compare equally, the both should have the same reins and headstall/bridal when comparing. Both should have been pulled on by the reins and not lifted by the hand. Testing for each must be identical or you don't get accurate results. You may have a point wih the different size of the joint, but you also were not comparing an actual Tom Thumb either.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Sigh........:-|

I have never seen bits put away so dirty.

As for the video....same ole same ole....


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Good luck with your education in the equine world, Bubba.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Interesting video. Is that you, Bubba? I was amazed at the difference!

I have to admit, I don't always put my bits away clean either. I am a slob.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I have to admit, I don't always put my bits away clean either. I am a slob.


Good, wanna come hang at my place, you sound like my kind of person.


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## Mocha26 (Oct 27, 2010)

As said on the first page, a lot of people have great results with a TT. I'm one of those people. I switched to a TT last July & it has worked wonders. My horse has never had mouth damage, & isnt fearful of it or me. I feel that as long as your not yanking on the reins it's not going to cause damage. Most experienced pleasure horses shouldnt have to much of a problem with this bit, at least no one at my barn does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> Good, wanna come hang at my place, you sound like my kind of person.


 
You betcha!!! What time is dinner?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

usandpets said:


> If you are going to compare two different bits and how they move, you can't change other variables. Everything but the bit needs to be the same.


You have a point, and I realized this after I took and uploaded the video. So I went back, on my own, and did the same experiment, this time treating the bits in the exact same manner (using my hand on each, and then using the reins on each). And got the same results as posted. :wink:

Although if you notice in the video, all the things I did to the Argentine snaffle (having a curb chain, having a bit hobble) would actually _limit_ the degree of independent side movement it has, while the TT, sitting on loose like that, should be as free as possible. So in reality, the difference between the two is even more drastic.



> Why did you take the reins off the Tom Thumb type? And if you wanted to compare equally, the both should have the same reins and headstall/bridal when comparing. Both should have been pulled on by the reins and not lifted by the hand. Testing for each must be identical or you don't get accurate results. You may have a point wih the different size of the joint, but you also were not comparing an actual Tom Thumb either.


I didn't take the reins off the black bit--it didn't have reins on it to begin with, as I sure don't use it! It was just hanging on a rack and I grabbed the first quick-change headstall I saw to put it on. And no, it wasn't a real Tom Thumb. A real Tom Thumb is an even worse bit than my black bit, as there's even less freedom of movement between the mouthpiece/shank connection.





Allison Finch said:


> Sigh........:-|
> 
> I have never seen bits put away so dirty.
> 
> As for the video....same ole same ole....


Same old same ole physical proof, you're right. 

One bit is clean but rusty. The other is used daily. Oddly enough, my horse has never complained...



tinyliny said:


> Interesting video. Is that you, Bubba? I was amazed at the difference!
> 
> I have to admit, I don't always put my bits away clean either. I am a slob.


Oh, but such terrible unprofessional horsemanship to not clean your bits after each use....! Do you know what it does? It....it....hurts things. I read it on the Internet. I'm an expert.

Yeppers, that's me. In full-out ******* accent mode, too, apparently. :shock: I swear, I clean up better than that....


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Tried to post this last night....not sure why it didn't go....



> Amen.
> 
> It always bothers me when an amateur with limited exposure wants to be the next expert.




For the record, “expert” is and always has been your word, not mine. But let’s just condescend a little, shall we?




> Some if us ARE world class trainers, and we might take exceptions to the flat questionable statements that you are making.


 
And some of us ARE a wee bit pretentious, too.

And yet you have failed throughout to prove in any way, shape, or form that TT’s and Argentines are, essentially, the same thing and have the exact same effect. It’s all been insults and vague “broken mouth with shanks,” something any idiot can point out and see. You clearly have the knowledge and expertise to set me straight—why not do it? Why not explain, using principles of physics/mechanics, why the two bits work in exactly the same way? Why not tell me why all of my experience riding horses and using the two bits has been a misinformed delusion? Why not explain why I can rotate one side of the Argentine without moving the other side of the mouthpiece, but I cannot do the same for the Tom Thumb?





> Talking to a few trainers, especially a family who have a vested interest in promoting a particular type of bit, does not make an expert. Years and years of observation and experimentation gets my vote every time.


 
Oh, come on. The Mylers were only an example that I used to show that, actually, I leave my little podunk backwards ******* school of horsemanship occasionally to consult with experts. Naturally, however, the Mylers are some of the foremost experts in bitting physiology (and great horsemen besides), and I absolutely have faith in their knowledge. As for the other trainers I’ve talked to about bits, they’ve been very diverse—colt breakers, barrel racers, H/J & dressage riders, trail riders, and so on. As for experimentation—ha! I’ve experimented with **** near every bit I could get my filthy mitts on. And that, it just so happens, is the source of much of my knowledge and “expertise.” I remember being a 12-year-old and snagging a big old correction port off of a high rack and sticking it in a green horse’s mouth to “see how it worked”….the memory of the chewing-out I got for that one remained for a long time. Later I learned, of course, a far more appropriate selection process. I fiddled and changed until my horses stopped fussing with the bridle. I learned how to select a bit appropriate for addressing all of my horses various training problems: A hackamore for a too-bendy barrel horse, a short-shank gag for a horse resistant to bending at the poll, a dogbone curb (adjusted loosely) for an old broke trail gelding. And I advised others in their bit selection, too, and when coupled with good riding techniques, saw some of the problems that they were having fade away. And I read. And I consulted with as many knowledgeable people as I could. And I bought more and more bits to try out, tossing the ones that were too harsh for any use or that flat-out didn’t work. And I rode and I rode and I rode and I played and I played and I played. And I ride and I ride and I ride and I play and I play and I play….





> I give up. Shouldn't have even started in the first place.
> Snaffle bit refers to 1:1 ratio of applied pressure to pressure felt on the bit. If it is a greater than 1:1 ratio, it isn't a snaffle. Mislabeling curbs as snaffles is nothing more than an incorrect marketing scheme - people see the word snaffle and they think it's a good bit regardless. Obviously that trick works.


 
For the love of….

I freakin’ _know_ what a snaffle bit is. But the name of the **** bit is an “Argentine Snaffle.” Is it _really_ a snaffle? NO! Of course it’s not! But that is sure ‘nough what it’s called. I didn’t make the term up. I didn’t make it up with all the Western trainers refer to any bit of that type as a “shanked snaffle,” either. I _know_ it’s improper terminology, but it’s accepted and commonly-used terminology, and saying a “snaffle mouth” is far less of a mouthful than saying “single-jointed two-piece broken mouth.”

As for implying that a snaffle or a curb is the better bit, I think that’s a load of baloney no matter who’s saying it. Either can be mild or harsh in the right or wrong hands.





> Allison and Jen hit the nail on the head with their posts, and I'll follow suit.
> You have a lot to learn. Hell I thought I was hot stuff and knew it all when I was your age. Keep your mind open, you're still so young. You'll have the wake-up call sooner or later; I hope you're up for the lesson when it comes.


 
Yes, “keep your mind open”….words to live by, indeed.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> You betcha!!! What time is dinner?


Better hurry, pork chops are on the grill, potatoes bubbling away nicely, broccoli steaming

As long as you aren't fussy that I have been known to throw my bits in the dishwasher, with the plates.

Bubba, I've learned a lot about bits and bitting with your help, I hope that others will learn as well, this whole debate is great, thanks to everyone who is putting their point of view, gives me even more to look at and think about.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

bubba13 said:


> Why not explain why I can rotate one side of the Argentine without moving the other side of the mouthpiece, but I cannot do the same for the Tom Thumb?


Based on the video posted, I'd say the difference is that the TT look-alike had small holes where the bars connected, allowing only a little rotation before the other side moved. The Argentine had larger holes.

So the question would be, are all bit holes the same?

Based on the photo of the Argentine below, I'd say no - and thus not all outcomes would be the same.










Showman Black Steel Argentine Style Horse Bit - Western Horse Bit

But I ride more bitless than snaffle, and have never tried a shanked bit, so all I can go by are pictures.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

To me, that is a poorly-made Argentine. Too tight around the mouthpiece/shank connection. Still better than a TT, though, with the nice mouthpiece finish and curved shanks. But more difficult to get subtlety/finesse and side-to-side independence.

As for my black bit, it has a fair degree of rotation about the shank area. It was hard to show in the video, but I'd guess it's about 270* or rotation, which is about all you'll get out of most bits. It's just covered by the concho so it's hard to see.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Wait, bsms, by "bars" do you mean the sides of the mouthpiece? If so, then yeah, it's a difference of finish, all dependent on bit quality as much or more than bit type. Reinsman makes a Tom Thumb:










which I have not seen/handled in person, but which certainly looks far, far better than your standard run-of-the-mill TT. The mouthpiece is certainly better. But it's still going to be plagued by some of the problems that have been discussed ad nauseum.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Bubba, I liked the video and I thought your way of speaking was clear and very understandable. It might be good to go into the action of bit into the side of the face, because that is another reason some trainers object to the TT; because when you take one rein out to the side a little, the part of the shank that incorporates the mouthpiece rolls INTO the side of the mouth, which I imagin would cause discomfort.
My good friend and die hard snaffle only friend just finished a whole lot of training with John Ensign. She now has a bit that looks like a double jointed Argentine snaffle or somehting like that. It's a Jeremiah Watt bit, very expensive and her newest toy. But she says her horse goes really well in it. 
I, however , have ridden Mac in his owner's TT and hate the way he goes! He comes behind that bit. She says he respects it and you can stop him better, but I disagree because I feel I have less horse in my hands with him tuckiing behind it.
So, I will never use a TT, but I may try an AS, and my mind is more open after seeing your video.
I dont' agree with everyithin you posted in your other threads, (guess that means we are human), about your gray mare and the training questions, but I realized that I may have had an opinion about these bits based solely on reading, not on fact or actual exposure. Thank you for showing that new information. I am actually relieved to be wrong.


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## usandpets (Jan 1, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> ...I didn't take the reins off the black bit--it didn't have reins on it to begin with, as I sure don't use it! It was just hanging on a rack and I grabbed the first quick-change headstall I saw to put it on. And no, it wasn't a real Tom Thumb. A real Tom Thumb is an even worse bit than my black bit, as there's even less freedom of movement between the mouthpiece/shank connection...


 Uhmmm... At 0:59, when you are showing the bit, what's attached to it? Sure looks like reins to me. Then when you go to test the bit at 1:25, what every they were are gone.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

You know, after going back and watching the video, you're right. I'd forgotten I grabbed the clip reins and stuck them on, too. But they were a pair of looped, single-piece game reins, and they kept getting tangled on the other saddles when I tried to do the demo, so I took them back off. If I'd had three hands I could have made it work, but I'm not that coordinated. Notice there's no curb chain on the bit, though, as it is in fact out of commission as far as I'm concerned. I did repeat the experiment, however, using reins on the TT later on, and using my hand on the shank of the Argentine. Same results in each case.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

As for tinyliny's post above,




> Bubba, I liked the video and I thought your way of speaking was clear and very understandable. It might be good to go into the action of bit into the side of the face, because that is another reason some trainers object to the TT; because when you take one rein out to the side a little, the part of the shank that incorporates the mouthpiece rolls INTO the side of the mouth, which I imagin would cause discomfort.


 
You know, I hadn’t even thought of that, especially since I wasn’t using an actual TT. But you’re right—that’s another rather unfortunate design flaw, largely caused by the straightness of the shanks, their bulge, and the tightness at the mouthpiece/shank connection.




> My good friend and die hard snaffle only friend just finished a whole lot of training with John Ensign. She now has a bit that looks like a double jointed Argentine snaffle or somehting like that. It's a Jeremiah Watt bit, very expensive and her newest toy. But she says her horse goes really well in it.


 
I’ve never had a Jeremiah Watt, but they sure are nice to look at, and I imagine they’ve got phenomenal quality. That’s the funny thing about two “camps” of horsemanship. I’m not really sure why so many people are die-hard snaffle addicts. Sure, the snaffle is a great place to start, but it’s sure not the be-all and end-all of bitting. Some horses just plain don’t like them, for one thing. And they don’t have the finesse and subtlety you can get with a curb, in many cases. Nor can you often ride them on such a loose rein as a curb allows. And there’s really nothing about a snaffle that makes it inherently “gentler” than a curb. It’s just a different action. As with anything else, it all depends on the hands that hold it.




> I, however , have ridden Mac in his owner's TT and hate the way he goes! He comes behind that bit. She says he respects it and you can stop him better, but I disagree because I feel I have less horse in my hands with him tuckiing behind it.
> So, I will never use a TT, but I may try an AS, and my mind is more open after seeing your video.


 
See, quite frankly, I’d rather have a stiff and bracey horse than a super soft one that ducks behind the bit like that. While neither is great, at least you can control the former. The latter? Who knows what it’ll do? Maybe rear, for all you know, and there’s not a thing you can do about it. It’s a dangerous situation when a horse is afraid of the bit.




> I dont' agree with everyithin you posted in your other threads, (guess that means we are human), about your gray mare and the training questions, but I realized that I may have had an opinion about these bits based solely on reading, not on fact or actual exposure. Thank you for showing that new information. I am actually relieved to be wrong.


 
Well, you know, and you only see snippets of me and the gray. So who’s to say what we would or would not agree on, if each knew the other’s full story. 

But for the other part, that’s a human thing, too. It sucks to be wrong. Hell, I’ve got an ego a mile wide, and I not infrequently have to confront some horrible worldview shifting moment as the rug is pulled out from under a trusted and familiar belief. But that IS how we grow, learn, change, progress. Hopefully (all of us) can swallow our pride at moments like that, acknowledge defeat both to ourselves and others, and actually benefit from the experience.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

And for anyone who couldn't be bothered to search for the video description:

All right. Let’s discuss the topic of Tom Thumbs and Argentine Snaffles, a surprisingly controversial subject…

First off, when I say “snaffle mouth,” I mean two-piece, single-jointed. “Snaffle” is a misnomer, but a commonly accepted one, quoted by big name trainers in their videos, written about in magazines, and sold in tack catalogs. The word snaffle really means a bit with no shanks and direct rein -> mouthpiece action (something that Tom Thumbs and Argentine Snaffles clearly are not), but in the vernacular it often refers to the type of mouthpiece shown in this video, regardless of cheek style.

The Tom Thumb is a bit that gets a bad rap for being very harsh--stories have been passed around of people breaking their horse's jaw with it. Now, that seems a little exaggerated to me (I can't imagine how much pressure they'd have to be exerting on the reins to cause that much damage), and while I don't consider the TT to be particularly cruel, I just plain don't like it for a variety of reasons. Many people do use and love this bit, swearing by it and using it for training colts. To each his own, but my personal opinion is that there are _FAR_ better bits on the market.



View this image to see a Tom Thumb bit, as the black show bit used in the video, as mentioned, is not entirely a TT due to its curved shanks and slightly higher degree of freedom around the mouthpiece/shank connection: http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac246/almostmozart/Random Stuff/tomthumb.jpg


That, right there, is a true Tom Thumb--and the worst one in existence. The straight shanks don't give the horse any warning at all--the second you apply pressure, they pop right around, snatching the curb and activating the tongue-pinching and bar-crushing effects with the mouthpiece. It also makes direct reining difficult--the straight shanks, combined with the way the mouthpiece attaches to the shanks (no freedom whatsoever), mean that when you pull on one side, the entire bit twists rather painfully in the horse’s mouth. The curved shank versions aren't quite as bad, but it's still quite difficult for the rider to convey the intended cue to the horse, no matter how light or heavy his or her hands are. This bit just doesn't have a whole lot of finesse in the horse's mouth--it's all or nothing. And any efforts at direct reining will likely result in confusion for the horse. While many horses do ride well in a TT, this often has far more to do with the kindness of the horse's temperament than the quality of the bit.



Now compare the above bit to this, your standard Argentine Snaffle: http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac246/almostmozart/Random Stuff/argentine.jpg



At first glance, they look very similar. But the Argentine is much better balanced. Look at the curved shanks--these make it less harsh, and a slight touch of the rein will give a horse warning that a cue is coming, giving the horse time to react. Also, the joint between the two parts of the mouthpiece is finished better, so it will be less likely to pinch. Most importantly, the attachment from mouthpiece/shank is not fixed in the vertical direction. This gives both parts some freedom and independent movement. Slight jingles in the reins are often all that is needed to give a cue and thus get the desired response from the horse without the yanking that is often required with a Tom Thumb. Ask any horse--most will respond so much better to bits of this type.

In regards to folding and pinching of the mouthpiece into a palate-poking “V,” unfortunately I was not able to give a good visual demonstration of this effect. Keep in mind, as stated, that the bit will behave slightly differently in the organic environment of the horse’s mouth, interacting with tongue, bars, lips, jaw, and so on. The movement of the horse’s mouth certainly has the ability to change the orientation of the bit, and this could lead to some pinching with any mouthpiece, but more so with a two-piece “snaffle” mouth like this. However, in a curb bit like an Argentine or a TT, when the reins are held two-handed for direct-reining, the hands are wider apart than the cheeks of the bit (and the cheeks are further held apart by the very size and structure of the horse’s mouth), so the bit will not fold in on itself. Even when riding with one hand, the reins are separated by the width of the horse’s neck, and thus greatly minimize the inward force pulling the shanks together, and thus folding the bit. Pulling directly back, harshly, while riding one-handed with a centrally-positioned rein could perhaps begin to crush the bit inwards, but this is very poor riding and should be avoided regardless of the choice of bit. When neck-reining (and even when direct-reining), too, the primary control of speed, stop/go, and turning should come from the rider’s seat and legs and the “push” of the reins across the neck—not from bit pressure, again regardless of bit choice.

When are these bits appropriate? In my opinion, the answer for the Tom Thumb is “never.” For the Argentine Snaffle, I find it to be a good transition between a regular, true snaffle bit (O-ring, D-ring, etc.) and a curb of any kind. The mouthpiece is familiar to the horse, the shanks are short and relatively mild, and well made bits allow for some degree of independent side action, meaning that it can be used for direct-reining, flexion, lateral movement and so on. Recall again that bit quality is of the utmost importance. Some bits marketed as Argentines are really nothing but glorified Tom Thumbs. Try the bit out first to make sure that it works the way you think it will. The Argentine may also be a good choice for trail riding (so long as the hands using it understand its action and can use it appropriately) and for training any sort of horse who appreciates a bit with this design—and many do.

As with any bit, both of these require an educated hand with good “feel.” Whenever selecting a bit, play with it in your hands first to get an idea of how it works. When riding, visualize the bit in the horse’s mouth. With practice, you can even begin to feel what it is doing—you can actually “see” the rotation of the independent sizes of the mouthpiece, feel the curb chain activate, and so on. Thus you can temper your rein motions accordingly to transmit the clearest—softest and most precise—cue to your horse.

Finally, if you like some of my stylish headstalls shown (quite unflatteringly) in the video, check out http://www.facebook.com/mozartcustomtack !


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