# Two point, no stirrups -- more harm than good?



## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of the exercise. 
While there is some practicality to it, in that the ability to maintain a two-point without stirrups is a useful skill for a jumper to have, I don't think it translates so seamlessly. Rather than honing a rider's ability to maintain a position without stirrups, it's a strengthening exercise. It pinpoints the core and the legs simultaneously.

Firstly, when this is done properly you should not need to grip with your knees or your thighs. A rider should be able to maintain this position (with or without stirrups) with a somewhat constant contact all the way down the leg. With this in mind, it should not hurt the horse's back.

I have never ridden a horse that I closed my thighs or knees to slow a horse (as this sounds different than 'riding with your seat', but I could be misinterpreting!), so I can't comment on that portion of it. 
Maybe this is a discussion to have with your trainer?  Ask their reasons for assigning it to you!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I couldn't answer your questions, since I have no training and jumping. I do, however, I think they are very thoughtful questions, not at all ridiculous.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

The intention may be to use the whole leg, but looking at the logistics of it, it seems to me that no amount of pressure applied below your knee is actually going to be able to contribute to lifting you out of the saddle. Sure you can squeeze inwards down there, but you can't squeeze up at all. Gravity won't allow you to put upwards pressure below the widest part of the horse's barrel no matter how strong your lower leg is.


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## sayazeleznik (Oct 31, 2016)

For me at least, when i do two-point without stirrups it's not _really_ to keep me out of the saddle, it's mostly to strengthen my inner thigh muscles for posting and cantering. I've always done it in a pad and i have my knees forward more towards the horses shoulders so i wouldn't think it's that uncomfortable, since i'm not on the weak point of their back. But yeah, I use it as a strength excersize for other movements.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Not sure if it helps by when I've jumped without stirrups as in also without a saddle, I only went forward off the horse's back when it went into the air and the rest of the time stayed in a sitting canter position
If you look at Alycia Burton in this video that's exactly what she does


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## DanteDressageNerd (Mar 12, 2015)

I rode my quarab bareback for months (no saddles fit him and he'd pitch a fit in every saddle we had available to us). I think riding bareback or stirrupless can create some bad habits and muscle memory that isn't desirable but you gain a lot of qualities as well that can be difficult to explain, such as a not actual term I call "stickability" or ability to stick things that happen so quickly and so forcefully you should have come off. My quarab used to have a lot of temper tantrums for sometimes no reason or various reasons. Sometimes for no reason, sometimes because I dare touched his bottom with a whip, sometimes because I used a spur a hair too strongly. Sometimes because I asked him to go forward and he didn't want to but young half arab. It'll help you with jumping as well because sometimes you lose your stirrups or things happen and you need to stick. On them same horse I was barely unbalanced over a fence and he was going like he was going over it then in his rise changed his mind and jumped side ways and broke my hand because the sudden jerk of him jumping side ways caused my hand to roll under his neck and snap on his neck (freak thing) but I wasn't anywhere close to coming off, so I finished the course before pathetically saying my hand's broken and I'm unable to untack and put away my horse. Life happens fast and sometimes you can't prevent much but riding bareback and doing stirrupless riding will help prepare for those moments.

With posting trot you do not need to grip, getting out of the saddle comes from the momentum of the horse's back to push you out, even with stirrups it is the same. You don't brace down into your stirrups, you let your weight come down. Your legs don't bring you out of the tack, it's the energy from the horse's movement. You don't use the stirrups to bring your body out of the tack but to take up your weight from their back. For example when I ride, I tend to put quite a bit of weight down my stirrups to take the weight as much as possible off of the horse's back. Sitting deep, doesn't need to be heavy. 

When riding with stirrups really practice landing as softly as possible in the saddle and controlling your post.

This is from last year but bareback posting trot on my quarab gelding. He got pretty unhappy about too much posting trot bareback, it irritated him. He was a VERY opinionated and particular horse and he was very sensitive.

I did two point sometimes but it would REALLY irritate him because you do have to hold yourself up with your leg, not as much with your thigh but your calf. Open thigh to allow motion. For example if you were to ride one of my babies I've trained, if you close your thigh-that's similar to putting on the brakes or asking for smaller gaits.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Thanks DDN! I actually like doing posting trot without stirrups, as I agree that the motion of the horse is enough to push you up without gripping to lift. And MAN does it burn the backs of the thighs!!

I actually really love doing no stirrups work. My coach and I did "No Stirrups November" last year and it was really satisfying. While I don't ride the same way with as without, I agree about the stickability. Last night I accidentally found myself on a hot horse, in a borrowed saddle, with my stirrups about three holes too long and didn't have any more holes to go up! I just pretended I was riding without them, and my muscle memory from that work kicked in, and I felt quite stable despite the potentially precarious situation!

Also, it's good to hear you do the closing the thighs thing to get slower or smaller gaits. I've been trained to do the same, but my current coach is the only one who has done that with me. So I didn't know if that was an idiosyncracy of her training, or a common thing in dressage training, but it's very effective.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

One feat of horsemanship I will never forget was Mark Todd riding a horse called Bertie Blunt at Badminton 1995. His stirrup broke whilst going cross country and he finished the course with one stirrup. 
What added to this feat of him doing so was that it was only two days before the event started that he sat on that horse for the first time and they went on to win. 

It was interesting to see how between fence he hooked his stirrupless leg back and up.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

Foxhunter said:


> One feat of horsemanship I will never forget was Mark Todd riding a horse called Bertie Blunt at Badminton 1995. His stirrup broke whilst going cross country and he finished the course with one stirrup.
> What added to this feat of him doing so was that it was only two days before the event started that he sat on that horse for the first time and they went on to win.
> 
> It was interesting to see how between fence he hooked his stirrupless leg back and up.
> ...


What an impressive recovery/ride!! :O 

The leg tuck is VERY interesting! It looks to me like it could be:

-to prevent a cramp?
-to readjust his seat?
-to push himself up into a more exaggerated two point for some purpose at those moments?
-or to avoid unintentionally spurring his horse?

I did notice that prior to the stirrup breaking away, he's riding the course far up out of the saddle in a strong galloping-position two point, but goes down into a full three point after breaking it -- except in those leg tuck moments or when he's following over the jumps.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I heartily endorse this exercise. And not just for those who jump.

We have a saying in therapy "Stability before mobility." The strength and stability (not always the same thing!) gained through this will carry over and improve your balance and seat in other areas.

Being able to stay aboard and finish a course or a chukker or a task with one or no stirrups is merely a bonus. One that may prevent an injury, but less common than the day to day benefit.

I ride stirrup-less in two-point and also post at a good working trot that way.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

SteadyOn said:


> The leg tuck is VERY interesting! It looks to me like it could be:
> 
> -to prevent a cramp?
> -to readjust his seat?
> ...


It could have been to prevent cramp or to try and keep him out of the saddle more I very much doubt it was to prevent him inadvertently spurring the horse, if you look at his position over a fence his legs never move with or without stirrups!


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

As others have said, it's a drill to strengthen your muscles. All sports have drills and many of them are quite different from the actual sport and nothing you'd do while competing.


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## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

SteadyOn said:


> What an impressive recovery/ride!! :O
> 
> The leg tuck is VERY interesting! It looks to me like it could be:
> 
> ...


Two pointing for a whole course without stirrups would be tremendously hard, you can two point without stirrups definitely and its a strong skill to have when jumping. My instructor makes me take my legs out of the stirrups tuck them up and then find my stirrup again obviously unrelated to that video which is amazing and my instructor goes on about it all the time. More then likely he tucks his legs up to help him in the gallop get off the horses back more as you can actually see when hes about to jump he sits more but when hes in gallop he tucks his leg up and is off the horses back.


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## TribalHorse21 (Aug 23, 2016)

DanteDressageNerd said:


> With posting trot you do not need to grip, getting out of the saddle comes from the momentum of the horse's back to push you out, even with stirrups it is the same. You don't brace down into your stirrups, you let your weight come down. Your legs don't bring you out of the tack, it's the energy from the horse's movement. You don't use the stirrups to bring your body out of the tack but to take up your weight from their back. For example when I ride, I tend to put quite a bit of weight down my stirrups to take the weight as much as possible off of the horse's back. Sitting deep, doesn't need to be heavy.


What if your horse has literally no "bounce" to push you out of the saddle? lol :racing:


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## TXhorseman (May 29, 2014)

TribalHorse21 said:


> What if your horse has literally no "bounce" to push you out of the saddle? lol :racing:


While some riders post just to be posting, doing so on a horse such as you describe establishes bad habits. The purpose of posting is to make trotting easier on the rider's seat and the horse's back. The horse's motion lifts the rider's seat from the horse's back and the rider controls his motion so he does not "plop" back down. If the horse's motion does not propel the rider's seat up from the horse's back, there is no reason to post.

With regard to "gripping" with the legs, realize that you can "grip" with various degrees of pressure. Using all the pressure you can produce could irritate a horse and effect his movement. A lighter pressure can help you "adhere" to the horse without the deleterious effects of "gripping".


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Slightly off-topic, but closely related to the original post:

I was taught posting by an old cowboy. He said posting was what you did so you could get to the work site with a horse who had enough energy to work after he got there. The main point was to not tire the horse or his back.

If, when posting, you let the horse lift you rather than pro-actively standing in the stirrups to raise your butt, then aren't you still making the HORSE do most of the work? Seems it would be more efficient, for both human and horse, to actively raise yourself, particularly if you are only trying to raise your rump an inch or so - AND if you are not starting 'behind your horse':








​ 
Waiting for the horse to raise your rump should increase the pressure and work done by the horse.


> The stability of the rider in the _Y_-direction was significantly highest in the two-point seat, followed by the rising trot and the sitting trot, respectively. In the _X_-direction, there was no significant difference between the three positions. The significantly highest load on the horse’s back was at the sitting trot (2112 N), followed by the rising trot (2056 N) and the two-point seat (1688 N). The rider was most stable in the two-point seat while transferring the lowest load on the horse’s back. The rising trot was found to be more stable and less stressful for the horse’s back compared to the sitting trot.
> 
> - ( A comparison of forces acting on the horse?s back and the stability of the rider?s seat in different positions at the trot )​


===========================================​ 
But I'm approaching things from a western perspective. I went Australian yesterday, with 1" English leathers, and I'll admit there is a pretty noticeable difference in stability between stirrups hanging on 1" leathers and those hanging on 3" leathers!

Directly addressing the original post: I learned the Forward Seat from adopting some of what the US Cavalry taught and VS Littauer taught. Both emphasized a "stirrup-centric" approach to riding. Both taught riding without stirrups, but Littauer eventually abandoned it for anything other than learning how to handle the loss of the stirrups.

I quit doing it almost as soon as I started trying it. It became apparent in one ride that I rode without stirrups differently than with them. With them, my emphasis was on letting my weight flow uninterrupted into my stirrups. Without them, like the OP, I found all my weight was carried above the knee. It has to. Past the knee, my horse's side is vertical, as is my leg. Two vertical surfaces cannot support each other. Thus practicing two point without stirrups was teaching me to do what I wanted to avoid doing.

Later in his life, Littauer abandoned regular stirrupless work for that reason. At least with new students, he concluded it taught them to grip with the knee rather than to let it flow into the stirrups.

Fast forward a few years. My English saddles are sold. My Australian saddle is only used part of the time. I mostly use a western saddle. Gripping with my knee as a pivot point really isn't possible in my saddle. The shape of the saddle and where my leg hangs just means my knee doesn't have anything to grip but air. It takes a death grip with my thighs to get my knees in contact with anything.

I'm also regularly riding with long stirrups, long enough that I have to straighten my leg completely to put much pressure in the stirrups. Riding like this, in my western saddle, means I use my thigh more and my stirrups less. My thigh is about 60 degrees below the horizon. Riding like this, I don't see much harm in using some grip with my thigh. It is a line of pressure, not a point of pressure. And that line is more vertical than horizontal.

However, because of terrain, my trotting is done for a few hundred yards. Then rocks will force a walk. There is no such thing as trotting an even pace for miles, not unless you want to destroy your horses feet. So I normally just go to two point, or "standing in my stirrups" - which in my western saddle gives me no more than an inch of clearance anyways.

Because my riding style has changed, I'm thinking of doing a lot more stirrupless work.

BTW - I know this is in the "English" section. However, I find I use a lot of "English theory" in my western riding, and a lot of "western theory" in my...well, Australian riding. I've ordered an Australian saddle pad and expect to use it more than I have. Either way, thinking about how things work from both perspectives helps me. No offense intended.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

TribalHorse21 said:


> What if your horse has literally no "bounce" to push you out of the saddle? lol :racing:


Moving slightly out of the original question 
One of the reasons beginners struggle with posting is because they don't understand the concept of using the horse's stride to determine when to go up and how far up to go so they get out of sync. with the horse.
If I compare two of my horses - one of them has a really big naturally elevated action and it feels as if she's trying to launch you into space so you can't help but go that bit higher but another has a very shallow, sweeping stride and covers the ground but without the natural elevation so on her you barely go out of the saddle at all
The easiest way IMO to learn to post is to start off sitting and get a feel for the way the horse is moving
If you're doing 2 point with a saddle that's got decent knee rolls you can use them to tuck your knee against rather than rely on a vice like grip to keep you out of the saddle
If you do need to grip hard with your knees to do it its actually going to be a negative for jumping if it becomes a habit as you will then be pivoting around your knees which destabilizes the lower leg. There are 'groundwork' exercises for riders that will help develop strong thigh/core muscles that might work better


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## longear (Aug 2, 2017)

The only thing I wanted to comment on is that you DO actually want to grip with your knees and inner thigh. What else is keeping you on the saddle? You absolutely need these parts of you touching the saddle. The thing that trainers do not want is for you to grip with your knee and have no weight in your heel, allowing your lower leg to flop around. Being able to master the leg comes with time and education. ANY no stirrup work will benefit you.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

longear said:


> The only thing I wanted to comment on is that you DO actually want to grip with your knees and inner thigh. What else is keeping you on the saddle? You absolutely need these parts of you touching the saddle. The thing that trainers do not want is for you to grip with your knee and have no weight in your heel, allowing your lower leg to flop around. Being able to master the leg comes with time and education. ANY no stirrup work will benefit you.


There's having your knee and thigh on, using them in a stabilizing way, which is important -- and then there's actually clamping on, which is what I meant by gripping. The type of gripping I'm talking about is using knees and thighs in a vice-like way to try squeeze oneself into remaining on the horse. It inhibits the horse's movement and actually makes the rider less stable -- even though it mentally *feels* more secure -- by forcing their centre of gravity up and pushing them out of the saddle. 

In the case of no-stirrups two-point, however, this kind of grip that is normally avoided seems to be the only way to push the seat up off the horse, so I question if it's all that beneficial to horse or rider. A no-stirrups *forward* seat where the hip angle closes but the rider isn't trying to squeeze themselves off the horse's back might be a good compromise -- same angles without forcing a clamping type of lift.


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