# When two alphas meet...the blood will fly.



## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

Yup! Our arab mare is queen and when we aquired two more horses QHs World War III started! We also thought that one of um or both would be severely hurt! This went on for days. Even when things settled (queen won) there were still moments of challenge. But eventually we sold the trouble maker and all is well. We never encountered anything like that either. Was quite scarry!
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## Citrus (Feb 26, 2010)

Wow- that looks awful! I don't know how to figure this out but I am sure someone on here will know what to do


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## mbender (Jul 22, 2009)

You just need to let them deal with it. Looks just like what happened with us. Just have some vet wrap and meds on hand. They will do this until they reach an agreement. Its horrible but the only other alternative is to keep them seperated.
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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Well, sometimes it is better to have less human involvement than you think. See how when you first let them go the chestnut stared down the pally and the pally walked past, backed his ears but continued on following you out? Both horses were 100% aware of the other but neither had really made the first move of introductions. 

By leading the pally back to the chestnut and to get them to introduce that way, it is a human centric way of thinking - 'if we get the introduction out of the way then the worst is over' when in reality horses have much more subtle language than this, especially with two dominant horses. It may well have taken the two of them 20 mins or longer to actually get to the stage where they sniff and squeal at each other, but this is by no means 'time wasted'. This allows them some time and space to judge a little for themselves the best approach to the situation. By forcing them to have a direct introduction when you led the pally straight back to the chestnut, they really had no time to suss out each other before deciding on their own how to go about introductions. The reaction you had was quite extreme and I hope that both horses are OK.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

sarahver said:


> Well, sometimes it is better to have less human involvement than you think. See how when you first let them go the chestnut stared down the pally and the pally walked past, backed his ears but continued on following you out? Both horses were 100% aware of the other but neither had really made the first move of introductions.
> 
> By leading the pally back to the chestnut and to get them to introduce that way, it is a human centric way of thinking - 'if we get the introduction out of the way then the worst is over' when in reality horses have much more subtle language than this, especially with two dominant horses. It may well have taken the two of them 20 mins or longer to actually get to the stage where they sniff and squeal at each other, but this is by no means 'time wasted'. This allows them some time and space to judge a little for themselves the best approach to the situation. By forcing them to have a direct introduction when you led the pally straight back to the chestnut, they really had no time to suss out each other before deciding on their own how to go about introductions. The reaction you had was quite extreme and I hope that both horses are OK.


I understand where you're coming from but I really doubt it would have helped. We were trying to keep them away from the rail so nobody was cornered and trying to jump it. I don't think the outcome would have been any different without our interference as I've seen how the chestnut mare behaves towards newcomers - she almost put my Paint filly through the fence from her relentless charging. Normally we do just leave them to their own devices, we were just concerned about a fight starting at the rail where Justus walked over to. We'll try to stay out of it more next time.
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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

MM, with all respect I don't think it's a good idea to board them together as well as introducing to each other like that (even with bunch of people around and leg protection). What if they'll start doing it in field, slip on ice/mud, fall and break the leg? There is a good possibility for that. But it's just IMHO.


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## Walkamile (Dec 29, 2008)

Good luck MM. I have a friend whose "boss mare" is so much so that she actually cornered one of the other mares and never stopped kicking. The mare that was attacked died from internal injuries. And that was between a dominant and non-dominant horse. 

Wish I had some info to give you on how to get them to accept each other without all the violence, but I don't.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

The only advice I have is to not put these two in together. I would never ever in a million years put Soda in with another dominant aggressive horse. More than likely one of them would end up dead. I think your intentions are good, but you are asking for some very serious injuries. Some horses cannot be kept together and that's all there is to it.

The one time he was in a paddock with that type of horse he was being led through and they both reared up and went at each other like studs. I managed to break it up (yes I am an idiot, but it was just one of those reaction things) before they got really into it, but I will never put him in that situation again.


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## Amarea (May 25, 2010)

I hate to say this, but that video reminded me of a pitbull fight. The palomino tried to walk away and was subsequently led back and forced to confront the other. Then they went at it and you broke them up for it. If I was one of those horses, I would have been VERY confused. First you force the confrontation and then you break it up. IMO, this was a bad way to go about things. I agree with the person who said less human interaction.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

Amarea said:


> I hate to say this, but that video reminded me of a pitbull fight. The palomino tried to walk away and was subsequently led back and forced to confront the other. Then they went at it and you broke them up for it. If I was one of those horses, I would have been VERY confused. First you force the confrontation and then you break it up. IMO, this was a bad way to go about things. I agree with the person who said less human interaction.


This is what I was thinking.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

Amarea said:


> I hate to say this, but that video reminded me of a pitbull fight.


I thought the exact same thing and the thought of this type of behaviour going on for 20 minutes is frightening.


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## Eliz (Jun 16, 2010)

Sometimes two horses just don't need to be together. We have a pair that not matter HOW LONG they're in adjacent pens, they never show a sign of getting along. Do these horses HAVE to be together?


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

Ok, with all due respect, we expected some fireworks we did NOT expect that level of intensity. The other option was to simply let the cowboys throw her out with the herd and figure it out herself. We did everything we possibly could to make it as safe as possible for them.

Yes, if Justus wants a stall for winter, she HAS to be boarded with this mare. Obviously if they can't sort this out, we'll have to look at not having Justus indoor boarded this winter.

I can respect your opinions, but I am a little offended that some people are acting like we delibrately did this to see a big fight. We expected some squealing and kicking, and we were trying to keep them away from the rail. No, she probably shouldn't have been led directly back to Jessie, but if we had known they were going to attack each other that viciously, we WOULD have done it differently. 

In the end, neither of them are my horse and it's not my decision.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> Ok, with all due respect, we expected some fireworks we did NOT expect that level of intensity. The other option was to simply let the cowboys throw her out with the herd and figure it out herself. We did everything we possibly could to make it as safe as possible for them.
> 
> Yes, if Justus wants a stall for winter, she HAS to be boarded with this mare. Obviously if they can't sort this out, we'll have to look at not having Justus indoor boarded this winter.
> 
> ...


we didnt say you made them fight because you wanted to. We were saying that you helped cause it then cut them off.

They sould not be togeth any way but things might have gone diffrently.


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## myhorsesonador (Jun 21, 2009)

BTW no one was being rude or attacking you in any way. We are just saying what we see.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

When you say that she has to be boarded with the other mare in order to be indoor stalled through the winter do you mean they have to be turned out together? Or are they being let loose in the indoor arena for exercise? I think your options are wait and see if they calm down together or keep them separated. You run a risk of one getting injured if they continue this behavior. I'm just trying to understand if they HAVE to be loose together... If they are going to be turned out is the space that they are being turned out in big enough for one of them to escape the attack if necessary? 

I've seen this because Willow and Annalie did it yesterday when I was bringing them in to feed. But it lasted for five seconds and I didn't interfere for fear of getting injured myself. Instead I just worked a different way to bring them all in without those two being left alone outside together waiting for food. 

I was nonchalantly watching your video when all the ruckus broke out it scared the living daylight out of me. Good luck with them. Looks like you need it. : )


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## mapleridgefarm (Sep 20, 2010)

I have found with my gelding whom is boss that you just have to put a horse with him, and let them figure it out. The more you interfere the more it makes it worse. Also, give them a large area, with maybe some grass or lots of little hay piles, let them find eachother on thier own...


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

sarahver said:


> Well, sometimes it is better to have less human involvement than you think. See how when you first let them go the chestnut stared down the pally and the pally walked past, backed his ears but continued on following you out? Both horses were 100% aware of the other but neither had really made the first move of introductions.
> 
> By leading the pally back to the chestnut and to get them to introduce that way, it is a human centric way of thinking - 'if we get the introduction out of the way then the worst is over' when in reality horses have much more subtle language than this, especially with two dominant horses. It may well have taken the two of them 20 mins or longer to actually get to the stage where they sniff and squeal at each other, but this is by no means 'time wasted'. This allows them some time and space to judge a little for themselves the best approach to the situation. By forcing them to have a direct introduction when you led the pally straight back to the chestnut, they really had no time to suss out each other before deciding on their own how to go about introductions. The reaction you had was quite extreme and I hope that both horses are OK.


I was thinking the same thing but could not have worded it so well. They stayed seperated on purpose.


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## QHDragon (Mar 6, 2009)

I agree with those that say some horses just should not be kept together. My first horse was a very low on the totem pole horse, and because of this he just could not be in the larger gelding group at the farm where I boarded him. The dominate gelding in that group did not stop chasing, kicking him, etc and poor Dunny basically just took it. He ended it up in a pasture with just one other horse. He still go a good kick now and then, but for the most part it was peaceful. The second gelding I had couldn't be put in with anybody else because he thought he was Mr. Hot Stuff. Poor BO had to reinforce the fence several times between him and the two geldings next to them. The two gelding would just stand there minding their own business and Rocket would just squeal and kick the fence like crazy. Some horses just don't do well with others.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

I never said anyone was rude or attacking, I was simply stating how some of the commentary made me feel. 

Typically, we always leave them alone. The ONLY reason we led Justus away is because there is a single rail there, and then a pavement aisle and box stalls. Horses see it as an escape route and the LAST thing we wanted was for Jessie to come flying backwards and have Justus try to jump it. No, Shay-la should not have led her directly back to Jessie, that was a huge mistake on our part. However, I have done this DOZENS of times, and they WOULD have fought eventually - be it here or out in the paddock. Out in the paddock, hurling Justus to the sharks by throwing her into a group of FIVE strange horses seemed a lot more stupid then trying to introduce them in the arena. As is, I don't see it being pleasant when she does go in.

Justus is getting a box stall in the arena where currently six other horses are kept (including Jynx). This group goes into their own paddock and nobody is going to start leading them around to their own pen, we don't board at someplace fancy. Either they learn to work it out or else Justus has to be on outdoor board, in the outdoor boarder pen.

I understand we made mistakes, but we did the best we could and we will do it differently next time. I honestly believe this was the best way - there's no safer pen to introduce them in, and someone WOULD have gotten hurt had we tossed Justus into the paddock to fend for herself. We have limited resources and did NOT think they would fight this badly, we thought Justus would back down relatively quickly. I appreciate all the comments and all the advice, we will definitely be considering all of it.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Sometimes when you stick a horse out in a group another horse will stick up for the new horse (note I said sometimes). When I stuck Willow out with the group she automatically became friends with Davinci and even though she is above him she stands up for him. Anything that will happen in this group of horses is going to happen even if you introduce them all separately because she'll still be the new horse in the group in their paddock. If you get what I mean.


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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

MM - we understand - you meant well, it just didn't work out the way you intended. Next time, try not forcing the issue. You said you were sure they would fight at some point, and you may be right...but you could be wrong, too. It's possible that if they were given plenty of room to maneuver and no food or whatnot to fight over, they may studiously ignore one another long enough to let the tension resolve itself enough to allow them to get acquainted at their own speed.

When we first brought Dancer and DJ home, we kept them separate from our other horses for a few days. Daughter's stallion is a really laid back guy, and had never shown any agression toward any other horse, and he was with a mare and her colt all the time. She ruled the roost.

Against my better judgement, the gate between the pens was opened and in an astounding display of agression, Scooter, the stallion, attacked DJ full on. It wasn't kicking and squealing - Scooter was going to KILL DJ, no doubt about it. DJ jumped a five foot fence with lots of room to spare and took off down the road. We searched for hours before we found the poor guy cowering in a wooded area down on the river.

In the end, DJ and Scooter became best buds, and even indulged in mutual grooming...but only if there was a fence between them. If they were both on the same side of the fence, Scooter turned into that mean monster all over again. 

Scooter has never shown any signs of agression toward Junior, and Junior is uncut at this time. I don't think the fact that Junior is Scooter's son has anything to do with it, I just think they've been together for a long time. That being said, they are in separate enclosures, so if they're put together, it may be another nasty fight.

Hopefully, Scooter's agression will diminish once he's gelded, because having to keep horses separated like this is a royal pain...


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

I definitely hear what everyone's saying and in hindsight, I shouldn't have led Justus straight back to Jesse - that was MY mistake 100%. That being said, the ONLY reason I even led her back is because she came up to the single rail that MM mentioned. Had she ******ed off the other way, towards the back of the arena, I'd have left her be and let them come back to each other in their own sweet time. Granted I should have just led Justus back to the center of the arena and not nose to nose...know for next time. But again, like MM stated, we didn't expect NEARLY that much excitement! A couple kicks, couple squeels...what we got was easily 100 times more than we expected!

Do they HAVE to be kept together? No...not if we don't bring Justus into a stall for the winter. I'll be riding Justus mainly early morning and late evenings though and can't be putting her back out in -40 gusting winds at 9pm...that's where the stall comes in. Only problem is that all 6-7 horses are kept in the same outside paddock together, which I might add is composed of electric wires and metal panels. This is why indoor intros with leg protection seemed the safer idea. 

IF Justus and Jesse can't sort out their differences in the next week or two, start to settle and not be at each other's throats...then it's not worth it and I'll put her back on outdoor board, in the pen of horses she's used to. But that will mean her riding becomes quite limited.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

The only "mistake" I see in the way you introduced them was to lead the palomino over to the other horse who is clearly the leader of the two. If the palomino can figure out on her own to just back off, then it might work out. If she's too thick to back down, it would be much safer to just keep her outside. No sense risking a broken leg.


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

Wow... just wow. That's some intensity right there...

I get that you said they were afraid of her trying to escape over the rail and whatnot, but leading her right up to the mare's nose and forcing them to meet wasn't necessary. Honestly, by putting them both out there together without other horses KNOWING they were gonna go after each other really DOES sound like a pitbull fight. With our horses, the two most dominant horses steer clear of each other as long as there's other horses around. They're too busy bullying everyone else, lol. This, though, is pretty much a staged fight...

And I'm definitely not blaming anything on you... like you said, not your horses, not your decision.


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## Snookeys (Sep 23, 2010)

Also toward the end of the video it looks like you can see the sorrel get a scrape on her hip from the palomino kicking her... are they wearing shoes?


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## A knack for horses (Jun 17, 2010)

Holy sh*t, they are dominant! I hope they have got it all out of their system.

Could you have put them in adjoining paddocks for a while until they were more accustomed to each other? My instructor ppreffers to introduce horses ino a heard over a two week period, instead of all at once. He separates them with a fence and an eletrical wire so they don't get to close to each other. It may have gotten some of the p*ss and vinegar out of their systems before they were allowed to meet "in person".

EDIT* Oops. I should have read your entire OP. I see you said they weere penned beside each other. In that case, I would have just let them duke it out on their own. It may not be the thing we want to happen, but sometimes it is going to happen either way.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

MM, I think its pretty unlikely that they will ever be safe to board in the same pasture. Normally what happens in a situation like this is that they fight until one of them is severely hurt/dead or until one of them is beaten into extreme submission and driven from the herd. Either way, if they are unable to escape one another, this will be a scratched record, just repeating over and over. I hate it that it won't work out but sometimes it doesn't and it can be a pain in the ***.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I can respect your opinions, but I am a little offended that some people are acting like we delibrately did this to see a big fight. We expected some squealing and kicking, and we were trying to keep them away from the rail. No, she probably shouldn't have been led directly back to Jessie, but if we had known they were going to attack each other that viciously, we WOULD have done it differently.
> 
> In the end, neither of them are my horse and it's not my decision.


I don't think that you did it to see the fight, and I think that you took steps to try to stop injuries, but I think there were mistakes made. 

1st, this should never have gone on for 20 mins. I don't understand at the 4 and onwards min mark what you were waiting or hoping for. 

2nd, the leg protection just look like wraps to me which would do little other than prevent a small scratch. 

3rd, as you have heard the horse should not have been lead back. 

4th, you are the barn owner I think, so why could you not have a say in this? I might be wrong about this, and I am not a barn owner, but I would not allow this to happen for 20 mins if I were. 

5th, why can't someone lead a horse to a different paddock/pasture. I think you said earlier that this is not about to happen. Why not? Edit, I don't seem to be able to find this comment now, and I don't feel like spending 20 mins rereading everything, as I feel sure I read it somewhere in this thread.


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## sarahver (Apr 9, 2010)

MacabreMikolaj said:


> I can respect your opinions, but I am a little offended that some people are acting like we delibrately did this to see a big fight.


I can see it would be offensive but look at it from an outsider's perspective:

-Horses legs are wrapped, we can only assume because a fight is expected to break out

-Camera is rolling to catch the action

-When one horse avoids the other, he is lead straight back

-The title of this thread 'when two alphas meet the blood will fly'

I am sure you didn't intend to mean it like this but stand back from the situation a little and have another look.


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## MaggiStar (Mar 19, 2010)

Wow personallty i would NEVER let my horse be in a situation where the chance of serious injury is MONSTROUS! Why can i ask 20mins was this allowed?? 
ALso i have two very dominant ponies how i introduced them was firstly in a large field just the two of them where there was no comfinement and they were on there own eventually all fractus pecking order was decided because they were just the two of them sure it would take time, But i much rather my method to your method.

I also dont understand why they HAVE to go out ogether if it means getting up 2hours earlier tpmove the horse to a safe field with a buddy do it. 

I just dont understand the need for the video at all


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

AlexS -

1) it wasn't 20 consistant minutes of this...there were 5-10 minute breaks where they just wandered the arena and came back to each other, where the fits were less dramatic.

2) yes, the leg protection is just polo wraps and SMB's but BETTER THAN NOTHING! No it won't prevent broken bones, but for the scrapes we were expecting, it did the job just fine.

3) thank you for stating the obvious - quite a few have mentioned leading her nose to nose was a mistake and I accept it as such. No need to keep mentioning it when it's already been addressed and recognized as a mistake.

4 & 5) no, she's NOT the barn owner or there would be NO problem keeping Justus in a seperate paddock to come in at night. As is however, there is ONE paddock containing horses that come in. We don't board at a fancy barn...more like a dude ranch and the idea that a horse should come in at night at ALL baffles them. I'm sure I could pay an extra $50 a month to have Justus kept in solitary confinement JUST so she could be seperate from Jesse and still come in...but if that's the case, pony's staying outside.

I have to say, I also think most everyone that has read this post and replied has taken a VERY defensive stance and had an accusitory sound to their replies. Like it's not possible to just be like, "oh wow, that sucks"...pointing out any and all flaws is a necessity on this site, and that's not just regarding THIS post. 

For the record - we did not dress up these 2 mares to watch them fight. Knowing that Jesse is overly dominant and pony tries to hold her ground, we deemed it too dangerous to have their first intros done in JESSE'S herd outside in their paddock. I did not lead Justus back to Jesse intentionally knowing they'd start kicking like demons...we expected a couple kicks, couple squeels. The leg protection was put on as a precaution...saying we did it to stage it as a pitty fight (which I do find personally offensive) is like saying people that put protection on their horse to haul them and then flip the trailer on the road trip did it ON PURPOSE. I'm sorry, BULL. You put protection on a horse as a "just in case" and for the better of the horse and SOMEHOW a couple of you have turned our desire to protect our horse's legs into an intentional act of harm.

I'm not about to bubble wrap my horse, nor am I going to throw her to the wolves. Jesse is 100 times WORSE when you just throw a new horse in with her and her herd outside - MM's paint filly was nearly put through the fence a FEW times because of this method. So, Justus and Jesse had been living right beside each other since MAY, almost 6 months of through the fence visiting and whatnot. Not like we hauled her over and threw her in.

Sorry if what I said here is taken offensively, not trying to attack anyone, but calling our stronger than expected intro a staged pitty fight isn't very friendly either...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Folks, I think this thread run its course. The opinions were given and it's up to the owners to consider different options. I'm closing the thread.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

With OP's permission I'm re-opening the thread again. _*There was enough critique at this point, so if the critique will be going on again the thread will be closed permanently. *_

I'm sure some people at the forum (especially managing boarding barns) were in similar situation at some point, so any helpful input would be highly appreciated.

P.S. I'd be very curious too to hear how to deal (if it's possible) with such situation.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Could you possibly try trailering them alone together? I've heard that that works.


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I think you already said this wouldn't work, but how about turning them out in a BIG pasture by themselves for a couple of weeks? They would have plenty of space to get away from each other, no food competition, and no other herd members to cause issues. Keep them together alone until they are good and start adding in the other horses slowly.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> I think you already said this wouldn't work, but how about turning them out in a BIG pasture by themselves for a couple of weeks? They would have plenty of space to get away from each other, no food competition, and no other herd members to cause issues. Keep them together alone until they are good and start adding in the other horses slowly.


This is how we always do it, and definitely my preferred method. Unfortunately, this debacle in the arena happened exactly for lack of necessary facilities. The arena is the biggest place we can put them together, and then there's that stupid rail in the way to make it a less then safe place to be. Ironically, we made these mistakes by trying as hard as we could to keep them safe - we were so busy focusing on keeping them out of corners and in the open, we weren't thinking very well about the actual behavior of a horse itself and how they prefer to do things.

Where we are boarding there are three pens and a big pasture - one large pen is for old horses, one large pen is for outdoor horses, and one SMALL pen is for indoor horses. The pasture is for the dude ranch trail horses and teams ONLY. There's no empty pens, no riding rings, nothing but a small paddock and an arena. :-(

At home we have an 8 acre pasture, and we always did introductions by introducing the new horse to the lowest on the totem pole and then gradually adding the next highest horses, finally adding the alpha when the rest of the herd had accepted the new horse. When/IF we turn Justus out into the paddock, we will be pulling Jessie out of it so Justus can meet the other horses (all very docile and friendly with her over the fence) and get situated before Jessie goes back out.

I don't know why, but we somehow thought if we introduced Justus and Jessie, they'd get it over with and just go at it LESS in the paddock. We're definitely seeing this may not work, and we won't force it if it won't, it's just the only way Justus can come in the barn.

Unfortunately, it's just not a "nice" place, it's a cowboy dude ranch and pickins' are slim when it comes to any sort of modified care for the horses. The indoor horses are run in and out down an alley to the paddock, they don't even lead them. Our other option would be to move, but I think we'd opt for Justus to remain outside over that as it's the only way we can afford an arena.

I'd be more then happy to answer any other questions for anyone with suggestions.

ShutUpJoe - I've never heard of that! We can try it! Like, a two horse trailer with partition or a stock trailer?


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

Too bad you can't just take them home for a couple of weeks. :

It's interesting that you introduce the lowest first. I've always heard that it's best to introduce the new horse to the alpha, let them figure it out, and then add in the herd (slowly). From what I've been told the lower herd members will kind of take their lead from the alpha. 

Good luck with the situation, it sounds like you guys have a lot working against you.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

MN Tigerstripes said:


> Too bad you can't just take them home for a couple of weeks. :
> 
> It's interesting that you introduce the lowest first. I've always heard that it's best to introduce the new horse to the alpha, let them figure it out, and then add in the herd (slowly). From what I've been told the lower herd members will kind of take their lead from the alpha.
> 
> Good luck with the situation, it sounds like you guys have a lot working against you.


I never thought of it that way, I had been taught to introduce the lowest first as they're most likely to bond together and give the new horse a bit of a friend, someone to stick to and make the rest of the herd more likely of acceptance if he isn't all alone.


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

Lady I used to clean stalls for had two geldings that absolutely hated each other. She trailered just the two of them for a couple hours to a show and then back for the first time. I believe her trailer was a two horse with a half partition. She told me when they came back they weren't best buds but she never saw them fight with each other the way that they had. I'm not sure if it would work but maybe it's worth a shot..?


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

That's a very interesting idea! Never heard of that! I have to say I'd be leery at this point, but maybe if they can't settle their differences right away give it a try? 

I'd LOVE to be able to introduce them one at a time! At the farm would be ideal, but like MM said, we have limited resources! I don't think it's worth moving barns, but outside 24/7 is Justus' other option. Her stall should be up this weekend once the tractor can make it over to the arena, will see how the weekend plays out and take it one day at a time! Thanks for the idea!


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## MN Tigerstripes (Feb 20, 2009)

I have one caution with the trailer idea. I would make sure you have shipping boots on both horses. Soda injured another horse once when freaking out in the trailer, it wasn't severe, but it was a pretty good cut. He wasn't trying to hurt the other horse either, he just had so pretty major trailer anxiety....


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Could I ask why there have to be different pens? We have our horses turned out per group - as in geldings, mares and what we call the 'baby' paddock. (Younger, ponies, quiet).

We also have the stalled horses walk in and out freely. I like to watch them move to ensure they are sound.

Can't the horse stay in the current turnout and someone simply bring her in when necessary?


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

Husband has a cousin that breeds and sells horses in the countryside. i showed him the video and he mentioned that his cousin had often these issues with stallions. They were also expected to work together (pull as a team) not just breed so they had to be solved as well.

He said the "method" was to keep in pens or adjacent stalls both horses as long as possible but without letting them hurt one another (fences, stalls etc) however they'd have all the time in the world to squeal and sniff each other.

Apparently after a while (months, however...) they were pretty much bored of each other and didn't try to kick.

But I am not sure if this applies to you, as I understand you do not have enough space :-(


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Personaly when I introduced 2 late cut and extremely dominant geldings I did so in a 4 acre field. Turned both of them loose with 2 other horses and let them sort the pecking order out. 
They eventualy did and without any major injuries. took a while for the fighting to die down and the 2 horses never liked each other but they came to tolerate each other.

I would NOT go down the trailering root. We tried this, they fought in the trailer and one horse caused severe damage to the other horse who could not get out of the way. They also cause damage to the trailer. Oh and the horse who was injured we never managed to get him back into a trailer again.


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## inaclick (Jun 6, 2010)

faye said:


> Oh and the horse who was injured we never managed to get him back into a trailer again.


That's a good point to consider.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

yep, they sorted thier own differences out in the field, came to an understanding where they just left each other alone.
they stayed in the same field for 10 years quite happily and by the end they occassionaly groomed each other and actualy got on fairly well.


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## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

Rather than drive them apart, try driving them off together. Maybe when you put pressure on them together every time they start kicking they will develop a little solidarity.


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## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

mls said:


> Could I ask why there have to be different pens? We have our horses turned out per group - as in geldings, mares and what we call the 'baby' paddock. (Younger, ponies, quiet).
> 
> We also have the stalled horses walk in and out freely. I like to watch them move to ensure they are sound.
> 
> Can't the horse stay in the current turnout and someone simply bring her in when necessary?


Unfortunately where we board it simply isn't an option. They're already understaffed and I doubt we could PAY someone to start leading the pony in and out every day. The gate to the outdoor pen is quite a ways from the barn. If you don't like it, then don't board there is generally the attitude. Its not for soft horses and I'm surprised they don't have more injuries because new horses just get tossed into the pens. However MOST horses have adapted well as often the outdoor herd won't even go see a newcomer, they're so used to it changing thet just pin ears if the noob gets to close! 

Kevinshorses - I really like that idea, I think we'll try it. Give them something to focus on instead of JUST each other! We DID end this session with them happy to stay away from each other and wander the arena for about 10 minutes with no fighting, just warnings. I think they can work it out as I think Justus is smart enough to just avoid her now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShutUpJoe (Nov 10, 2009)

I'd like to say that the way the lady that I cleaned stalls for trailer was there wasn't a way the horses could actually fight. The middle was completely divided from waist down. The horses could only sniff each other through the hay guard bars. She also had their heads tied. Maybe it doesn't work everytime or maybe that time was a fluke, it was just a suggestion. 

I have actually seen what Kevin is talking about done by a trainer on RFDTV. I don't remember how it turned out but it sounds like a better idea than mine!


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## Starryeyed (Oct 20, 2008)

Where I board we had our dominant mare and her "body guard" mare attack one of the other mares last summer and that mare wound up with a broken leg and had to be euthanized. Seeing your mares kick each other like that really scares me. It only takes one good kick to break the others leg. I say that they should not be penned together, they may seem ok eventually, but it wont last.


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

Still waiting on Justus' stall to go in so they're still in seperate pens, and have to admit I'm kinda nervous about when she's put in Jesse's paddock...but I'm confident Justus is smart enough she knew to just stay away from her at the end of our first session. I REALLY like kevinshorses idea about pushing them both together instead of away from each other! Great idea, totally using that one - thanks! 

Keeping Justus outside for the winter is always an option - never been stalled before but I was looking forward to not having to take the winter easy. Not crazy workouts, but not fear her working a little bit of a sweat because I have to put her back out in -40 plus wind and don't have 3 hours to dry her! Every winter before this, we've been limited to pretty much walk/trot and no actual exersize to keep them fit. Every spring then becomes a "get back in shape"...so yeah, excited to try a stall out, but not going to risk harm to Justus for it. If they don't settle a bit in the first couple days - week, I'll pull her and do outside.


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## rissaxbmth (Feb 2, 2010)

I also had the same thing like this with my horse when I boarded him at a new place. My only option was to let them fight it out. He has a permanent scar of a horse shoe on his rump (its not noticeable because his tail) but they came to an agreement and Blue ran Everado on top of the hill and thats where he stayed. They'll eventually work it out and after they are around each other it won't be this bad.


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## Juniper (May 4, 2007)

that's a tough one. we board at a dude ranch too so I know how that is. It is a constant shuffling around between keeping the horses in a smaller area where they are safe or letting them in the big fields where they run the risk of injury from fighting. Right now the number of boarders is down so we get a field with only one other horse but this summer they had to live in a big pen. what if you left Justus in her own pen but put a blanket on her to keep her winter hair from growing so thick? Even so you can't really work hard in the winter, too dangerous.


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## EveningShadows (May 18, 2009)

I suppose it's no more expensive to invest in a $350 blanket than to pay an extra $50 a month for a stall...but she's already got her winter whoolies something fierce and that doesn't account for the -40 wind factor. 

I spoke to the guy putting the stall in (STILL not up) and told him to aim for next weekend and just credit my account for next month. I don't think the ranch even HAS seperate paddocks available right now? Even then, seperate paddocks are so tiny, I wouldn't want that for her. At least right now she's in roughly 1.5 acres split in 2 but the group of 10-12 horses gets both. The horses that come in are in like half an acre with 6 of them already. It's NOT a big space. But with more of them there, I think they'll be shuffling everyone for the winter anyway to bring the teams in and put the trail riding horses out. Will settle down for winter this month hopefully!

Thanks for the input!


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