# Not standing on crossties/Dislikes grooming?



## emilieg (Jun 19, 2009)

Anyone?


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I deal with young puks alot. they too will not stand quietly for grooming in cross ties. I have a simple solution. When the horse starts moving around I just step right up against him and knee him in the rib cage and yell STAND UP. It doesn't take long before he learns to stand quietly. I see people waving a riding crop in the horses face threatening but that doesn't work. A quick knee, not a kick and knee does far more.
Within the week the horse is standing quietly without moving.
Trying to reason, trying to make it more enjoyable is not the way to go.. they are in cross ties they need to stand quietly and any other behavior is not tolerated.
Be soft, cuddle them and they walk all over you.
Be fair, be firm, set guide lines and the horse will be happier.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

I know I am going on and on but once more.
I start alot of young unhandled guys and from the minute I get them I start treating them as finished horses. If they don't tie, I tie them immediately, I strip away all the bad behavor and only leave the good. I won't back down from a fight if they choose to start one. From the minute they are cross tied they are expected to stand quietly and any other behavoir meats with discipline.
Now after all this discipline the end up more attached to me then the other's that wave crops in their horses face or put up with less then perfect behavior.
It doesn't drive them away, just the opposite. They respect a strong leader,a fair leader but not one they can walk all over.
Be quiet,easy going until they misbehave and then clamp down quickly and harshly and then forget it.


----------



## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

Rio... KNEEING THE HORSE IN THE RIB CAGE??!?! There's never any reason to ever do that! Everrr! Just because they don't stand on cross ties doesnt give you the green light to go kicking them around. No wonder they wont move there afraid of getting hurt... dear god!

My advice... I was dealing with a horse like this for a friend. He was moving on cross ties because he was afraid of human touch after being treated horrible. So if he moved forward I was step him back into place where he was then pet/scratch him in his favorite spot then continued. If he stepped back i'd move him forward back to his spots. I made that one spot the relaxation place.. the happy place. 

Little would never paw he would grind his teeth which is a displaced behavior, caused by stress, so in order to stop it.. I had to interupt it. So I would push his head or back him up SOMETHING to interupt that pattern. So maybe try it with the pawing? Ive never had a pawer so Im just throwing in what I would try. But now that horse will stand for hours for grooming. If he does feel like theres something he sees his needs to move for I just need to raise my hand to shoulder/chest level and he will stop in his tracks and go to where he needs to be. 

PLEASE dont 'knee' the horse in the ribs.


----------



## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Honestly, I would ignore the dancing and moving (within reason, if the horse starts being truly aggressive, or something like that I'd find a pro trainer to help). The issues is simple -- he wants to move, you want him to stand still. When he moves, stay with him and keep on brushing like nothing is happening, gently but firmly, with rhythm (wear tough shoes so you don't have to worry about getting stepped on). When he stops dancing, pawing, whatever, count to three Mississippi seconds, stop brushing, praise him (maybe treat him or scratch his withers :wink, and then go back to brushing while he's standing still. If he starts fussing again, just keep brushing until he stands, count to three, praise... 

Eventually (pretty quickly, actually, unless the behavior is terribly ingrained), the horse starts to understand that the quickest way to end the brushing is to stand still and allow it. Brushing will not stop because he chooses to dance around in the cross-ties. Timing is crucial to a quick result. As you work on his ground manners and he begins to see you as the "herd boss", I expect that your crosstie issues will get better as well.

Additionally, be sure that you have some kind of safety ties; whether quick release snaps, Blocker rings, or ol' reliable quick release knots securing your cross ties to the wall. ANY horse can spook, and horse tied up and spooking can be a major wreck darn fast. Safety ties are always a good idea. *Climbs down off soapbox*


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

You think that my knee in the rib cage comes anywhere close to another horse kicking him??? I see the guys playing rough all the time, rearing and coming down on each other all the time with iron shod hooves..


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Scoutrider said:


> The issues is simple -- he wants to move, you want him to stand still. When he moves, stay with him and keep on brushing like nothing is happening, gently but firmly, with rhythm (wear tough shoes so you don't have to worry about getting stepped on). When he stops dancing, pawing, whatever, count to three Mississippi seconds, stop brushing, praise him (maybe treat him or scratch his withers :wink,
> 
> this reminds me of allot of people I have seen over the past 25 years.. People who don't have a clue and never get a horse that truely behaves. They constantly put up with things. 20 years down the road they are dealing with the same crap.
> Clamp down right from the get go. A horse praised into doing something is never as reliable as the horse that met a little discipline.
> ...


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

I don't think booting a horse in the belly is going to teach patience. Scratch that - I KNOW it won't.

The horse is young, mentally maturing. He needs consistent handling - not force. Now if he was being naughty or dangerous - then yes - get after him. There is a line and the handler needs to know the difference.

Patience comes with time and maturing.

We stand our young horses in the cross ties and let them be while we start chores. Dumping grain, setting hay, bedding stalls, etc. We can keep an eye on them and they learn fussing isn't going to get them anywhere.


----------



## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> this reminds me of allot of people I have seen over the past 25 years.. People who don't have a clue and never get a horse that truely behaves. They constantly put up with things. 20 years down the road they are dealing with the same crap.
> Clamp down right from the get go. A horse praised into doing something is never as reliable as the horse that met a little discipline.
> In a week using the knee you will be further ahead then a lifetime of praising. I still ride with 2 older ladies with older horses and they are still putting up with crap while my new 4 year old stand quietly no matter what.
> Play a game if you want , horses are not reasoned with, they are led by a strong leader.


I assure you, Rio, that I do not tolerate "crap" from my horses. They will behave, or there will be consequences. The consequences are befitting of the action that the horse took. My current horse, Scout, come to me with not a clue about crossties (only ever been single tied) and danced much as the OP is describing. Within three days of "reasoning" he stood like he'd been born crosstied, and has not challenged my request that he stand quietly since. This is fact, not boast. 

As you often point out, we women lack a level of strength, a fact that I will not dispute. Perhaps I have a death wish for clinging to my snaffle bits and groundwork, but such tactics work for me with great success. If I start a physical battle with the horse I darn well better know that one knee or smack will do the job, because if it doesn't and the horse ups the antie past what I can dish back, I'm in trouble. I choose to use my brain. The most recent articles that I've read show that the horse has roughly the intelligence of a 2-3 year old human. I've never met a toddler I couldn't outsmart; and if the research overestimates equine intelligence so much the better for me. My horses are disciplined, and I am frequently complimented on how well mannered they are. They stand like stones to be tied, they stand like stones to be mounted/dismounted, they do not buck, rear, bolt. My farrier comments that he enjoys working on my guys because they are so quiet and prepared for the visit. I'm not asking that you take my word for any of this, we do not know each other beyond a few posts on a forum and you have no reason to believe a word I type. I defer to your obviously superior experience and years of training horses on most matters, but I do ask that you do not assume that because I do things a little differently than you that my horses are ill-mannered or disrespectful, or that I "don't have a clue". Thank you. :wink:


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mls said:


> I don't think booting a horse in the belly is going to teach patience. Scratch that - I KNOW it won't.
> 
> .


I didn't say Booting, I said KNEE, there is a difference.
As for young, I only start young unhandled stud colts, nothing else anymore and they ahave NO handling and yet in a day or two I expect, no demand they stand quiet and unmoving in cross ties.
And as for KNOWING it won't?? Have you tried it?? Unless you have you don't really KNOW.

There are no bad horses just bad handlers.


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

Scoutrider said:


> I do ask that you do not assume that because I do things a little differently than you that my horses are ill-mannered or disrespectful, or that I "don't have a clue". Thank you. :wink:


I am sorry if I offended you. You are right, I don't know you or your horses. I assume and we all know what happens when you ASSume?
Yes we make one out of ourselves
I am sorry.


----------



## Crimsonhorse01 (Sep 8, 2009)

to each their own on training. Gotta remember horses KICK each other with full force.
Anyways if you have a round pen or even just a lunge line. Go to brush him if he doesn't stand Make him Move. Maybe turn him once or twice then try again. He'll wanna stand after a while. 
Id also stick him to the patience post more.


----------



## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

RiosDad said:


> I am sorry if I offended you. You are right, I don't know you or your horses.* I assume and we all know what happens when you ASSume?
> Yes we make one out of ourselves*
> I am sorry.


Lol @ that. :lol:

Apology accepted, Rio. Thank you.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RiosDad said:


> I didn't say Booting, I said KNEE, there is a difference.
> As for young, I only start young unhandled stud colts, nothing else anymore and they ahave NO handling and yet in a day or two I expect, no demand they stand quiet and unmoving in cross ties.
> And as for KNOWING it won't?? Have you tried it?? Unless you have you don't really KNOW.
> 
> There are no bad horses just bad handlers.


Same principle. You are smacking a horse for not having patience. I know that doesn't work. 

Exactly how many unhandled stud colts does your barn owner let on her property every year?


----------



## RoadRider / Rios Dad (Jul 2, 2009)

mls said:


> Same principle. You are smacking a horse for not having patience. I know that doesn't work.
> 
> Exactly how many unhandled stud colts does your barn owner let on her property every year?


Only the ones I buy and I geld them immediately. I don't have any use for a stud but that is all I like to buy. I find them outgoing, brave and if unhandled unspoiled but that said I won't keep one a stud.
In 51 years I have worked out a system that MAKES good horses.
And yes I use the same syestem over and over. Why mess with something that works.


----------



## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Kneeing a horse in the ribs is no different than it getting kicked while playing or you giving a kick while riding. That being said, the best thing I have seen my grandmother do is just tie him short for a few hours. Start with just a single tie, and ignore him but keep an eye on him while you do barn chores. Once he quiets down, wait a little while and after he stands quietly for some time untie him. Keep doing this until he quits the fidgeting and up the ante to the cross ties. Once he learns that acting will not get him untied, he'll stand quietly. She has used this method for probably 30+ years and always has success.


----------



## lolayla (Jul 25, 2008)

agreed with kassierae. we always start our young horses out with some standing alone time.


----------



## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

I have to agree with Riosdad. I do not own a horse who will not tie and stand quietly. I also do not own a horse that rears kicks or bits. Why. B/C I do not tolerate it. If they move they get kneed just like he was talking about. If they rear they get kicked of they bit they think they are going to die. It is very simple. There are certain hills to die on and those are mine. Every one of my babies stand tied by the time they are weaned. I have even hauled several weanlings to shows and left them tied to the trailer all day when they where not being shown. Ever single one of them where little angles. Now I did hot have to knee them to get them to do it. However the discipline was relative to their age when needed.

You are the heard leading. Do the same thing the lead mare would do. They do not stand and try to understand the horses feelings. They use discipline and the force needed to get the results needed. No more or less.


----------



## PechosGoldenChance (Aug 23, 2009)

Riosdad: Man! I'm really liking this side of you lol. I remember when you wouldn't hold back ANYTHING and just spurt crap out (as I did too), it's nice to see you're calming down haha. I think I still need to work on that as well. Now back to the topic...I agree with you 100%.


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I'm going to jump in and say that whatever works for you is just fine - if it works. While I've done (and would do again if necessary) is to discipline a horse that is acting up on cross ties or to my trailer. Sometimes that will be a knee in the ribs if I'm close or it may be some "thinking" time if I'm not.

We can not do to our horses anywhere near what other horses can do to them unless we let our tempers get in the way. I never kick my horses in the legs but I will put a knee in their barrel. It works and is not abuse - it is what they understand.


----------



## kevinshorses (Aug 15, 2009)

I think it is funny when the same people that post things like "how can I bond with my poneh" and "My horse wont go" can't help but critizise those that choose to use methods that are not all rainbows and butterflies. Perhaps if these people would look around and see those people around them that have horses that don't rear or bolt or buck and see how they ride and train thier horses they may learn something.

This post was not directed at any one person and if it doesn't apply to you then no offense is meant.


----------



## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

Unless you jump into it like some sort of ninja, you are NOT going to hurt that horse with a knee to the ribs. It cannot gather that much momentum in a short distance. Hold out your hand, make a fist with the other. Hit your open hand with the fist about 2in from it. Then from about a foot away, using the same amount of general force. Which one hurts more? 

If Thunder doesn't stand to be groomed(which he usually does), I'll pop him in the chest to get him to keep from going forward.


----------



## whiskeynoo (Mar 17, 2010)

if our horses get a bit impatient we usually give them a leaf of hay or a bucket of feed to keep them amused until we're done with the grooming process


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

whiskeynoo said:


> if our horses get a bit impatient we usually give them a leaf of hay or a bucket of feed to keep them amused until we're done with the grooming process


Now .... what do you think you just taught your horse?


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

iridehorses said:


> Now .... what do you think you just taught your horse?


But what are you teaching it by smacking (kneeing - whatever) if they don't STAND STILL. I am not talking about pawing or jerking, kicking etc. I am saying STANDING still. They don't stand - you knee them. They respond to pressure and move - correct?????


----------



## whiskeynoo (Mar 17, 2010)

iridehorses said:


> Now .... what do you think you just taught your horse?


i see your point but it works for us and thats only when they get impatient, they usually stand quite well but they have their days. and i think the grooming process should be something it should enjoy having something to nibble improves the process.


----------



## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

RiosDad said:


> Only the ones I buy and I geld them immediately. I don't have any use for a stud but that is all I like to buy. I find them outgoing, brave and if unhandled unspoiled but that said I won't keep one a stud.
> In 51 years I have worked out a system that MAKES good horses.
> And yes I use the same syestem over and over. Why mess with something that works.


I'm sorry - perhaps you didn't understand my question - I asked how many - as in a number.

I will offer that I have trained 10 ~ 15 a year between the boarders, breeders and clients that I work for. Starting from scratch or fixing issues. Just sold one of my home grown colts to a guy from Texas on Sunday. Called the horse a mannerly teddy bear . . .


----------



## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

mls said:


> But what are you teaching it by smacking (kneeing - whatever) if they don't STAND STILL. I am not talking about pawing or jerking, kicking etc. I am saying STANDING still. They don't stand - you knee them. They respond to pressure and move - correct?????


There is a difference between a jab and pressure, as in what you do on a lead line or a leg given as a cure for a turn. A jab in the barrel is quick, immediate, and an eye opener. What it isn't is pressure - you are not holding your knee there, which would be pressure.

A quick yank on a lead line is much different from steady pressure and sends a different message to your horse.

As for feeding your horse for bad behavior ... if it works for you then that is OK but personally, I would never - ever recommend it to anyone. It is giving a horse a reward for unwanted behavior.


----------



## whiskeynoo (Mar 17, 2010)

i wouldn't really class it as bad behaviour


----------



## vivache (Jun 14, 2009)

I'd absolutely call it bad behaviour. A horse is expected to stand while tied, for the safety of it and its handlers. Is it, say, as bad as striking or biting? No. But it still needs to be corrected.


----------



## Tina (Feb 2, 2010)

It would be my opinion is that the horse is lacking in patience. He knows that when you brush him down he gets to go out and do what he enjoys to do, which is being ridden by you. I would take the time to practice tieing him for lengths of time with no interaction from you. When he stands quietly reward him with some strokes on his whithers and take him back to his stall/field. Don't allow him to predict what is going to happen every time you take him to the cross tie area. One time tie him and groom him and work him and the next time just tie him without your grooming.

I would not recommend belly kicking a horse for a lack of patience. This is a lesson that he should be able to figure out on his own. Tie him and leave him. Let him figure it out that standing still has much more desirable effects than moving around. If he dances when you are grooming him just step back and wait for him to quiet himself again. Then reward him with his favorite scratch.

Good luck!


----------



## emilieg (Jun 19, 2009)

Thanks so much everybody  There's tons of good advice here.
It's something we're going to have to keep working on. He kind of lacks any ground manners at all, so I'm going to have to be really patient and consistent.


----------



## ShezaCharmer (Mar 13, 2010)

*Patience is the key factor*

What I did to train my young mare to stand tied was every time she moved forward I would quickly make her back up to the place she started. If she backed up I would make her move forward. She soon found out that standing still is a lot easier and there isn't as much movement involved. Most horses are naturally lazy. 

But everyone elses opinions and experiences are great as well. 
I believe it mostly depends on the horse. One method may work for one horse but not the other. I think a key factor to training a horse to doing something new though is patience.

~Good Luck!


----------



## emilieg (Jun 19, 2009)

Thanks 
He is really lazy by nature, so that sort of consistency does work for him. He's starting to get the message slowly. He's the kind of horse that gets over habits really fast, but then the next day is trying something else.
Especially since he's been spoiled his whole life, he doesn't think he has to listen.


----------



## SeWHC (Jul 1, 2009)

I'd never ever feed a horse to keep it occupied if it fidgets. A horse should know that he has to stand for grooming, which, by the way, should be enjoyable. No pawing, dancing around, none of that is acceptable. 

My horse came to me as a paw-er. After about 3 minutes in the crossties she'd start pawing and scraping her hoof on the ground. If I was close enough, I'd give her a firm "NO" and whack the shoulder that is attached to the pawing leg. Then I asked her to stand. If I was out of reach or down the aisle, I'd again give a loud firm "NO" while placing one loud stomp on the ground. Then I'd ask her to stand. It took about 5 days for her to stand like a lady. 

I can put her in crossties and wander off and do something else and she'll stand for a very long time. She loves being groomed, and she really gets into it. 



Just a thought-- a horse that hates grooming and offers to bite/kick when grooming the barrel area is showing you major warning signs of gastric ulcers.


----------

