# Critique Rupert's jump! =]



## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

This isn't me on him.. So no comments about the riding. . 
But I've kinda been iffy about Rupert's jump lately. How do you think he looks? We've been working jumping so I wanna know if I have to fix anything.
This jump is about 2'3..









He tends to overjump, but he looks pretty accurate with this one..


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

Honestly from what I can see it looks like he's pretty sloppy as far as jumping goes. His hind end is very uneven, showing me that he's not sure how to use himself and as a result he's throwing his upper body over the fences. I'm not at ALL a fan of putting a martingale on a green horse OF, especially not a standing one, so my first recommendation is to remove that. Next, he needs a more confident rider to help him learn to use himself and gain confidence over fences.

I know you said that isn't you riding, however it's important to point out that the rider ABSOLUTELY affects how the horse will jump. In this case the rider is lacking a release and holding the horse in the face. As a result, the horse's ears are pinned, his facial expression is a rather unhappy one, and he's trying to both safely jump while at the same time not being allowed to properly use himself over fences. 

Not sure who the rider is, but if he was my horse, they would be lessoning with a trainer on a different horse while this horse learns confidence and balance over small fences in the form of gymnastic exercises that include both trot poles as well as small fences no higher than 2' of varying widths and as he gets more experienced, distances. 

In addition, based on what you said about the horse tending to overjump, I have a feeling that he's both lacking in hind end as well as perhaps avoiding the rider (if anyone else rides him like the one pictured OR if the rider pictured rides him regularly, he's learned that he needs to avoid the fence as well as avoid the strong pressure on his face - making jumping a not so great experience). Be careful as with continued rides like this, it's likely a matter of time before he starts to refuse as right now this jump (in the picture) is an example of how to teach a horse to dislike jumping - with the common outcome being refusals since actually jumping as above results in him being held in the mouth/caught in the mouth.

Looks to me overall like the horse has a lot of work to do on his form and the rider needs a quiet packer so that she can work on her own position and learn to ride with a much more secure leg/seat and develop an independent hand over the fences so as to not interfere with her horse. The rider would be best suited for a well school jumping lesson horse with a trainer, and the horse looks to need some rides with an advanced/professional rider to teach him how to engage the hind end first on the flat, and then tighten up his form over fences.


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

Okay so heres my opinion...
As the above poster stated, his hind end is lacking and his fornt end is sloppy. He obviously doesnt want to be jumping right now because of the dusposition on his face. However, it does look like he chipped in an extra stride and got a bit close to that jump. He looks like he needs more flat training, working on suppling and transitions, as well as acceptance of the bit. 
If I were you, I would make sure I approach the fence with plenty of energy, and looking up and ahead. Also make sure you release is better than the rider in the pictures. 
From other pictures Ive seen...I know Ruperts a sweet heart, but that in that pic he looks really unhappy.

Hope everything goes well!
E


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree with both of the above posters.

Although it is a small jump, a good jumper would not be that sloppy, even over a two foot fence. His knee is frankly, dangerous. I know this because I used to have a mare that did that and i was so thankful when someone told me that she was dangerous. It's hard to accept but it's kind of a need-to-know type thing for your (and your horse's) safety.

His expression is quite nappy and he doesn't appear to be having fun. He also has a standing martingale on his face which probably doesn't help

hope all goes well!


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

Jessica actually rides him very well, but you're definately right that she needs to release. Rupert is 20x better when you give him his head. 
He isn't green, actually. He's about 12 and an x-show horse, actually used to do some fox hunting.. 
He needs the martin gale because he pulls his head up/down a lot. I might start trying him without the martin gale, but he does need it sometimes..
He has breating problems and this was a pretty long course, so he wasn't too pleased with having to run around and around. I don't show him[ this was a show ] and when I ride him, we take plenty of breaks, so that's pretty much solved.
He does lack a lot of confidence though, he bought him after a while out of work.. But he's getting way better and is really excited to see the fences most of the time now.
I have him with a trainer twice a week, and we've only been doing small things, but I'm gonna ask about getting him schooled a bit more often. . 



CJ82Sky said:


> Honestly from what I can see it looks like he's pretty sloppy as far as jumping goes. His hind end is very uneven, showing me that he's not sure how to use himself and as a result he's throwing his upper body over the fences. I'm not at ALL a fan of putting a martingale on a green horse OF, especially not a standing one, so my first recommendation is to remove that. Next, he needs a more confident rider to help him learn to use himself and gain confidence over fences.
> 
> I know you said that isn't you riding, however it's important to point out that the rider ABSOLUTELY affects how the horse will jump. In this case the rider is lacking a release and holding the horse in the face. As a result, the horse's ears are pinned, his facial expression is a rather unhappy one, and he's trying to both safely jump while at the same time not being allowed to properly use himself over fences.
> 
> ...


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

We're working with him on transitions, he's definately gotten better.
His stride is was very sloppy when we started, he'd pick up his canter right before the jump and nearly crash into it- but he NEVER refuses.
This girl was working him way too hard at this show (I disagree on showing him at all. He needs to be walked out a lot, and she had him cantering around and around and around without any breaks over 5 minutes.) and he was ridden in about four more classes afterward, maybe more, and around 3 before. He wasn't too satisfied and VERY tired.
We need to work on his form.. he always forgets his back legs and kinda tosses himself over the jumps.


eventnwithwinston said:


> Okay so heres my opinion...
> As the above poster stated, his hind end is lacking and his fornt end is sloppy. He obviously doesnt want to be jumping right now because of the dusposition on his face. However, it does look like he chipped in an extra stride and got a bit close to that jump. He looks like he needs more flat training, working on suppling and transitions, as well as acceptance of the bit.
> If I were you, I would make sure I approach the fence with plenty of energy, and looking up and ahead. Also make sure you release is better than the rider in the pictures.
> From other pictures Ive seen...I know Ruperts a sweet heart, but that in that pic he looks really unhappy.
> ...


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

Basically the same response as bore here..
He just needs a lot of rein, but the martin gale is totally nessecary. He will buck and gallop off, even being the easily-tired out horse that he is. 
He was being way overworked that day, but he got a two week break afterward..
She should have released him a ton more.. 
But yeah, so there were reasons for his bad mood. 
we're working with him on the whole slob-of-a-jump thing.


eventerdrew said:


> I agree with both of the above posters.
> 
> Although it is a small jump, a good jumper would not be that sloppy, even over a two foot fence. His knee is frankly, dangerous. I know this because I used to have a mare that did that and i was so thankful when someone told me that she was dangerous. It's hard to accept but it's kind of a need-to-know type thing for your (and your horse's) safety.
> 
> ...


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

[me and these double posts.. =P]
The whole knee thing kind of scares me. He could just.. fall over at any minute.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Am I correct that it's a standing martingle on him?

In my opinion, you should NEVER jump with a standing martingale. It needs to be long enough to let the horse stretch out over the jump, and if it's short enough to stop him putting his head up, then it will not allow him to stretch out properly.

A running martingale is suitable for jumping if necessary, which you have stated it is. The martingale is released with the release of the reins, so it doesn't restrict the horse over the jump, but it comes back into play when the contact is picked up after landing.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

You say a martingale is necessary when riding him b/c he bucks and runs off which tells me it's either 1. a training issue or 2. a pain issue. Either/or NO horse NEEDS a standing martingale. I'd seriously reevaluate that....

As for him being an ex show horse, idc what he was, I know that NOW in that picture his form is incredibly sloppy and the rider is inhibiting his ability to jump, and the martingale is just making matters worse. He's certainly not ready for anything higher than 2', regardless of what he may or may have not done in the past. And if he has a breathing issue that causes him to not be happy when jumping then I STRONGLY suggest that you reconsider if jumping is truly in this horse's best interest...


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

He isn't my horse, they put the standing martingale on him, not me.
But he does tend to overjump a ton, so. . I dunno.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

He's ridden with plently of breaks for AT MOST two hours a day. 
He is usaully completely fine with jumping. 
We never take him over 2'9, and haven't done anything over 2'6 with him since the day this picture was taken..
The martingale helps him a lot. Again, he isn't my horse. I just school him once to twice a week and I can assure you, he's very happy most of the lesson when I ride him. If I think he's having truoble, I just stop.
The highest I ever take him in 2'3.. He can get himself over the jumps, and we're working on his form. . 
maybe i should just close this thread..
I'd rather not be yelled at, 
I just asked for critique-
but if you'd like to tell me how to help FIX his form in some way that doesn't involve removing the martingale, I'd appreciate it. =] 


CJ82Sky said:


> You say a martingale is necessary when riding him b/c he bucks and runs off which tells me it's either 1. a training issue or 2. a pain issue. Either/or NO horse NEEDS a standing martingale. I'd seriously reevaluate that....
> 
> As for him being an ex show horse, idc what he was, I know that NOW in that picture his form is incredibly sloppy and the rider is inhibiting his ability to jump, and the martingale is just making matters worse. He's certainly not ready for anything higher than 2', regardless of what he may or may have not done in the past. And if he has a breathing issue that causes him to not be happy when jumping then I STRONGLY suggest that you reconsider if jumping is truly in this horse's best interest...


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

overjumping isn't corrected with a martingale. first, it's caused by lack of proper muscling/training to accomplish the task at hand - the jump - with proper balance and impulsion. as a result, the undermuscled/trained horse will literally throw their bodies over the fences. the martingale will simply work to prevent the horse from throwing their head without actually CORRECTING anything. hope this helps.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

i explained how to fix his form and balance issues in the original reply that i typed on page one. i discussed grids and what not, however all of these should be done sans martingale. if you're going to continue to ride him in a martingale, then the issue will not be able to be fixed as the martingale will prevent the horse from properly using himself, especially when it's adjusted so tight as it is in the picture you had posted. no one here is yelling at you - we are all trying to help, however that's a bit hard when every reply to reply to with why you won't do what is suggested for the most part.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

Only had him for about six months. All we know about his backround was that his owners were fairly inresponsible and that he was a show horse. 
he only bucks/bolts when he's being ridden down trails.. up is no problem, though. if the gate is open, he flys out of the ring and won't stop until A) he's thrown his rider off or B) he's back at the stable. 
I'm going to ask about removing the martingale..


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

Just another word about the pic...
His martingale looks too short. It needs lengthened by quite a bit...


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

It fits him pretty well.. he has a short kneck.


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

The pic makes it look to short though. When hes standing, take your hand it press the loop in the martingale up to his throatlatch. If it reaches and isnt too tight or loose you know it fits.

Thanks


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Would it be possible to ask if you could put a running martingale on him? At least then he will be able to stretch his neck out over the jump to help balance himself. It's what I put on ym arab when other people jump him, and it works very well.


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

I was also going to suggest that. If you feel that you HAVE to use a martingale, use a running one. Remember your rein stops though!


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree with eventnwithwinston. Running martingale would be the way to go if he absolutely had to have one. A standing doesn't allow him to use his head and neck properly and is probably contributing to his contorted jumping style.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

I was going to ask about taking it off, but sadly, Rupert is injured and off work for a while. 
=[


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## Iluvjunior (Feb 15, 2009)

oh no what happened to him?


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh, poor boy. Best wishes to him.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

No idea. 
Came to get him and Caroline told me was hurt. =[


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## ShowJumpLife (Jan 17, 2009)

bummer that hes hurt 

i just wanted to add my say here.
I think the way he is jumping in that pic is sloppy but the martingale isnt going to inhibit his ability to lift his legs up is it? nup.
I like standing martingales allot more then there mate the running martingale. standing martingales attatch to the noseband, they only put pressure on the nose if your hrose puts his nose up too high, as soon as the horse puts its head down agian the pressure is released, with a running martingale if you have contact on the reins the martingale has contact, running martingales create hardmouthed angsty horses imho.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

Nope, Disagree Showjumplife. If your running martingale is adjusted CORRECTLY, then it is not in play AT ALL when you have rein contact and your horse is carrying itself correctly. If its adjusted right, it will only come into play when the horse throws it's head up. If your running martingale interferes with the contact while your horse is travelling normally, ITS TOO TIGHT!!!

Also, of course the martingale is not going to directly effect his legs. Duh. But it IS affecting how he can use his body over the jump. He is unable to stretch his neck out over the jump, which in turn means he isn't using his body correctly, which in turn can affect his leg carriage.


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## ShowJumpLife (Jan 17, 2009)

will have to agree to disagree.. because ive seen what running martingales do to horses even if they are adjusted correctly.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

And i've been using one on my arab for about eight years :]


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

And I can promise he isn't a hardmouthed angsty horse.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

I agree with wild spot. 

Running martigales may work on some horses and not on others. It depends on the horse's personality and how long the RM has been used. I used one on my event mare all summer because she was getting high headed and rushing to the jumps. But after a while she started resisting it. We took it off and she was fine. But it helped her tremendously while it was on. 

I strongly recommend using a RM on Rupert when he is able to be back in work again. Sending him warm wishes on a speedy recovery!


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## ShowJumpLife (Jan 17, 2009)

I wont ever let one near one of my horses after seeing a horses tounge almost cut off due to one.
And saying you have used one for 8 years on your arab only makes it clear that you have some major schooling issues going on.


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## wild_spot (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm pretty sure that would have been a freak accident. I have known hundreds of people who have used a RM with no issue. I don't know the circumstances around the accident your talking about, but it would be very rare. The pressure can be released by simply dropping the contact, whereas a standing martingale has NO release. Many horse when they discover that will freak out, and sometimes horses will rear and flip over trying to get free of the pressure.


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

ShowJumpLife,

I'm asking you politely to not make assumptions about wild_spot or her horse. Obviously the RM works on her Arab.

I jumped a QH in a SM at her owner's request (i had her for the summer while her owner was at camp and my trainer was riding her Trakhener mare) and i jumped her in it once and took it off. I told her owner that i was sorry but i wasn't going to let her horse flip over because of a SM that she didn't need. 

I'm sure it was very scary to see what you saw happen to a horse with a RM martingale on but I'm not so sure it was BECAUSE of the RM that it happened


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

Well, I would love to hear a GP Jumper or Rolex Eventer on their opinion about Running Martingales and how disasterous they are - especially since so many use them. 

Ahhh standing martingales - or as we call them, "Tie Downs". All they do is control a head set - that's it. They don't train or teach the horse anything, and once taken away, the horse goes back to their same ol' routine of high head carraige, because the rider uses the gadget to hide their holes in their training.

*I dislike Standing Martingales* - and I'll tell you why. They cannot be loosened incase of an emergency and they are restricting.

These, if used, should only be used over small fences where a horse doesn't have to use their head carraige to balance themselves. These should never be used over medium to big heights.

Also, most horses who have to go around with these gadgets on them, don't learn to relax. I also believe that horses develop incorrect muscles - such as under their neck due to bracing against.

Far too many use these incorrectly - which makes me dislike them even more. 


~~~~~

*CJ8SKY - FABULOUS POSTS AND GREAT ADVICE!!!!!!!!*


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

He isn't my horse.
Just a lesson horse I usually ride.


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## CJ82Sky (Dec 19, 2008)

MIEventer said:


> Well, I would love to hear a GP Jumper or Rolex Eventer on their opinion about Running Martingales and how disasterous they are - especially since so many use them.
> 
> Ahhh standing martingales - or as we call them, "Tie Downs". All they do is control a head set - that's it. They don't train or teach the horse anything, and once taken away, the horse goes back to their same ol' routine of high head carraige, because the rider uses the gadget to hide their holes in their training.
> 
> ...



I completely agree with everything you said on SMs, and in the right hands a RM can be useful, though prefer neither if I can, and rarely use a RM. (and thanks for the props! :wink


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## eventerdrew (Mar 13, 2009)

Very very well said CJ82Sky and MIEventer! Couldn't have said it better!


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

Rupert's still lame, and I'm not sure if I'll be jumping him too much once he's back in work.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

Once I'm back in the saddle and he's back in action, I'll try to get a video of us cantering and maybe doing a few jumps


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

another pic of rupert jumping. this one is a bit better... his jump, I mean. 
he's better over smaller jumps, but i haven't taken him higher than 2'0 and probably won't for a while.


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## MIEventer (Feb 15, 2009)

His ears say it all. And how stiff and tense he is in his jaw and neck.

He is not a happy camper.


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## xx chico (Mar 12, 2009)

It's not just his jaw and neck thats tight, look how tight the SM is! 

I have only used a SM once, in my opinion RM are deffanitly the way to go. Also if using a RM means you have schooling issues, then theres a couple truck loads of people with some major problems lol.


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## ridingismylife2 (Nov 4, 2008)

xx chico said:


> It's not just his jaw and neck thats tight, look how tight the SM is!
> 
> I have only used a SM once, in my opinion RM are deffanitly the way to go. Also if using a RM means you have schooling issues, then theres a couple truck loads of people with some major problems lol.



agree 100%!
the SM is really really tight and he can't stretch out at all.
Sm's just aren't made for jumping.

:shock:


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

again...
The same unhappy expression, tense muscles, and WAY to tight standing martingale. Please someone take that thing off that poor horse! lol


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

I can ask about it, but all I'll get from my know-it-all instructors is, "it fits fine".  
they can be really annoying. 
Rupert hasn't stopped limping.. not sure if he'll be back in work any time soon.


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

Try and tell them politely have having it way too tight and on is more of safety problem than him doing stuff with his head. I hope Ruppy gets better...


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

not sure if he's better not - update will come on Wednesday!


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

standings that are correctly fitted dont hinder jumping haha


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## rider4life422 (Apr 11, 2009)

IheartPheobe said:


> Only had him for about six months. All we know about his backround was that his owners were fairly inresponsible and that he was a show horse.
> he only bucks/bolts when he's being ridden down trails.. up is no problem, though. if the gate is open, he flys out of the ring and won't stop until A) he's thrown his rider off or B) he's back at the stable.
> I'm going to ask about removing the martingale..


I saw that no one responded to this comment and felt it needed to be addressed. First he bucks and bolts home? or away from the barn? And bucking/bolting back to the barn means he is barn sour and unhappy. That will get much worse if its not addressed, he is obviously very unhappy. It can be very dangerous, your trainer definately needs to evaluate WHAT is making him so sour.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

Away from the barn. He doesn't mind working, though. Once he's in the ring he's very sweet. 
All those pics were pretty old.
Rupert's still lame. His injury isn't bad, but he's really soar so his stall-rest will go on for a while.
My dad has finally started bringing a camera along so I'll have more recent pictures when he's better.


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## Supermane (Sep 23, 2007)

charliBum said:


> standings that are correctly fitted dont hinder jumping haha



Everything I was going to say was already said, so I'll just agree with you. I use a standing martingale when I jump my horse...









^ That's 3' (not me)

I do agree that with a sloppier jumper it might be more dangerous (a running would too) and in hunters, running martingales are illegal.


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## huntseatgirl (Mar 16, 2009)

I agree with CharliBum and Supermane. If a SM is fitted and used correctly, it shouldn't inhibit the horse's jump at all. In some low-level hunter classes (at least in my area) standing martingales are actually officially recommended.


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

exactly, when the horse relaxes the head the standing relaxes so yah


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## Trissacar (Apr 19, 2009)

His knees are uneven so that needs to be worked on. But I'd have to see a different picture to comment.


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

Rupert is better now!!!!!!!!!!! =D
And for those of you with problems with the SM- me included- HE GOT A NEW ONE! =D It fits perfectly! WAHOOO!


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

Yay! Glad hes better! Youll have to take some new piccs


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

yepp.


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## jody111 (May 14, 2008)

I cant see your pics - any of them - but I can see the others in the thread - so cant comment....

but I dont have any issues with a correctly fitted SM for jumping.. They are used all the time in Hunters. My instructor has put one on my horse before and it didnt hinder her at all....

Personally I wouldnt use them for higher levels but 3ft 3 and below would be fine

each to there own though


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## jody111 (May 14, 2008)

Gosh I bumped up an old post whoops 

Im guessing thats why the pics arent there


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

they were from the barn site you could see them on my horses page as well. sadly rupert died :"( so there really isn't a point anymore tho :"(


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## eventnwithwinston (Feb 15, 2009)

Nellie! 
I am so sorry to hear about that 

Any info as to how he died?


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## IheartPheobe (Feb 15, 2009)

He had been doing really well.. and then his condition just went completely downhill much too fast. He went from jumping courses with no problems (breathing was audioble but he was fine.) to not being able to trot three or so paces without being completely out of breath. By the time they decided to let him pass he couldn't even walk to the barn from the field. :'(


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