# New mare



## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

This is my rescue mare, Calamity Jane. She look a WHOLE lot better than she did a couple months ago! She's starting to fill out and overall is a happier horse!

But, I have a question. She was registered red dun and before her winter coat shed off, I had no doubt. But with her new coat comes some confusion! 

She's got black (actually grey) everywhere. I've seen red duns with black in their tail, Annie has that. But Callie's whole mane and tail are black. And she's got grey feet and black areas on her front legs and between her back legs. Also she's got blackish tips on her ears.
And black zebra stripes. And then I added one of a couple weeks after I got her. He legs hadn't shedded out yet.
Here's some pictures:


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Poor girl! Thank you!

Hmm... Her coat looks sort of red dun/dunillo, but her mane doesn't really support that. But then her legs look pretty red, unless she maybe was a wild type dun? 

I'm conceding on this one.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

Kudos for rescuing this girl. Without seeing her legs, I'd call her a buttermilk buckskin but those legs throws that out the window. I do know that equine genetics is still in it's infancy and that some color genes are unknown so suspect she falls into that category.


Our TWH gelding has black hairs in his mane and tail, but is definitely a chestnut/sorrel since he's DNA's as ee.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Honestly while dark her mane is completely normal for a chestnut.... She looks every bit a red dun to me.

There are so many different shades of chestnut.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Huge props go to you for providing her with a caring home. 

I think when they're that malnourished it can do some odd things to their coat color and you won't see what true shade she's going to be until she gets healthy again. I thought I had a dunskin but he darkened up with proper nutrition and has never again been as light as he was when I first got him so he's actually a bay dun.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

So I'm pretty mad right now.

The first time I saw Callie was on an ad. I had been looking for a couple months for a horse that would fit me, and be okay for my 8 year old cousin to be lead around on. I finally found a horse that would be a fit. So I called the guy and went up to look at her. 

No, she wasn't what I was expecting to see, or what I really wanted, but as soon as I saw her I knew I would be taking her home. She was probably the skinniest horse I've ever seen in person. She had lice and bots in her mane, rain scald, three different types of worms, and her teeth were all like razor blades and some were digging into her jaw from being fractured and not properly taken care of. She had three knots on her face (bony infections, from the fractured teeth). He told me they give their horses (they have 57 different ads on horseclicks, plus who knows how many more that they're not selling) round bales during winter and the others wouldn't let her eat; "that's why she's a little thin." 

After I paid and she was in the trailer, the story came out that her and about 20 other horses were dry lotted all winter with no food and little to no water. Apparently they were on the guy's brother's place for a few months and he was supposed to be taking care of them. The vet told me to get in that shape, it would have to be more than a few months. At least a year or maybe two. 

He said she got the knot on her face (he didn't explain the other two) when she was a two year old but it doesn't bother her any. 

So. I paid $1500 for her, and took her home. I started pumping the groceries in her (weight builder by Farnam is unbelievablely effective!). Once she gained a little weight I lead the kids (9,8, and 5) on her for short amounts of time. And she was the perfect horse. I was mad because they lied to me about her health, but I figured I came out better than I expected. 

Well. She's finally fat enough for a full grown person to ride, so I saddled her up the other day and as soon as I sat down, I knew things weren't going to go well. I walked her about 5 feet and she reared up and just about laid on me. I checked the saddle pad and everything that could have irritated her and nothing was wrong. 

When I bought her, I told him of my experience level (which I admit isn't high) and that an 8 year old little girl is also wanting to ride her, he told me she would make me a gooooood horse! 

So my guess of her actual story? 

He started her as a two year old (he told me that) and he got about half way and he got rough and made her hurt herself, (the fractured teeth and she's got a knot on her neck, like it had been out of joint or something) and didn't have the vet out, they just but her in the pasture with the other horses and she just became another horse. She couldn't eat because of her teeth, and she got skinny, so they put her in a dry lot so they could watch her, but then didnt. Went through their horses, deciding which ones to sell (one of their ads is for a herd reduction sale) and she made the list. 

The ad said she was a 6 year old mare with new shoes, and she's ridden every day.

I got an 8 year old mare that's never had her feet messed with, it seems, and that's only half broke, if that. 

I have my horse that I've worked with since he was born off at the trainers now, and once he's back, I'm going to send her off.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Has this man been reported? Esp if your vet knows about him? I wonder why he's allowed to do this...

Sorry you got the crummy deal, definitely not worth that sort of money, they should be paying YOU! But I am also a bleeding heart! I do think this mare will be worth it though, obviously she just needs some time.


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

No good deed goes unpunished.

But you saved that mare's life. So many people would have just walked away. I hope the trainer is able to do something with her. I don't like the sounds of that neck injury..


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I would have a good vet or chiropractor check out her back and neck before riding her. She could have enough damage that she will not be safe to ride. 

I'm sorry you paid so much for her. Personally, I would have threatened to report the owner which could have led to hefty fines and loss of other animals. You should have been given the horse as I was given my rescue, since the feed and vet care are so cost prohibitive for many of these rescue horses, and you don't even know if the horse will end up too damaged or ill to be ridden in the future.

If you ever rescue another one, it can be helpful to outline for the owner all the costs you will have to pay in the first month: medication for skin issues, hoof care, dental care, shots, worming, grain, etc. You can mention that when they are reported for neglecting the horse, they will have to take care of all these costs themselves and possibly fines as well. It can make losing the purchase price they were planning on seem like a bargain, especially if they risk losing other horses that are in better condition and they might be able to sell.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Can't help with the color question but thanks for grabbing this girl. It may not seem worth it now but maybe she will reward you later when she's feeling better and has some training and confidence.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I actually wonder if she isn't greying out on top of red dun. How old is she? I would run a color test for fun on her- along with a 5 panel.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

She's 8 so I would think the grey would have already showed up. But my knowledge is limited. 

I'm working on getting pictures uploaded to photobucket. Her color is _still_ changing! 

I don't know if he was reported or not, if so, it wasn't by me. This was my first time actually buying a horse, and I've certainly learned a lot! Haha. I don't know of any horse chiropractors in my area, but I'll talk to my vet. 

I think after everything she'll be a good horse! She is super sweet, and has never showed any amount of meanness. My cousins (10, 9, and 5) help me brush her almost every day and she's wonderful with them! She's just not broke! 

What color test would I do? Is there one that could just tell me what color she is or do I have to test for everything I suspect and decipher the results? 

I would think agouti would tell me if she's got any black, right? 

Like I said, my knowledge is limited!


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

Here are the pictures. She's almost lost all the black on her legs, and the hair on her face is growing back, she's got a solid blaze!  

She's so confusing!


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Good for you for taking her although I'm sorry it's been such an ordeal. People make me wonder sometimes... I know if it were me selling, I'd be too embarrassed to show my horses in that kind of condition and would probably just ship them to an auction... then again, I suppose I'd also be too embarrassed to let my horse get to that state before selling anyway. 

Anywho, as far as colour, she looks bay dun to me, maayyybe dunalino. The white hairs on her belly perplex me and I wonder if there's a possibility of roan, if just minimal? If you're really curious, you could pull some hairs and get her colour tested. The ones you could probably do would be to test for black, agouti and dun. That would give you a pretty good story on her colour. As she continues to improve in health, her coat will probably change some more and become more obvious. Good luck with her.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Meh, I wouldn't bother color testing. If you really do want to you will test for E (red) meaning black/bay vs chestnut. Agouti is black vs bay and is irrelevant on a red and she's obviously not black. Then dun, which I think is pretty obvious for her, so wouldn't bother. Cream can hide on a dun, so if you were curious you could test that but not sure how much it matters either way. The only thing worth testing if you feel like it is black and cream.

I still think her color is very standard  The ONLY part that looks off is her mane, which is STILL normal for a chestnut! She doesn't have black points, just a darker than expected mane and her body is washed out due to her condition.

Here's a bay dun:







Look how much BLACK he has! That is what black points means, not any color other than the exact same color of the coat (and the dun will cause slight points too).

Don't you have an adult red dun and a bay dun in your pasture? Go out and look at them and see which she looks more like forgetting about the "black points" rule people get stuck on


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

Yes, know. I figured there was variation between each color. And I'm sure this isn't the color she'll stay, it's probably a lot to do with nutrition! 

I probably won't color test unless I just have a lot of money I don't know what to do with... 😂😂

Thanks everyone for your help and support!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"I probably won't color test unless I just have a lot of money I don't know what to do with... 😂😂"

There are SO many things I will do at that point!!! LOL!

DO post some updated pictures as she gains conditions and congrats on her. Forget about her past right now you have a really great horse that simply needs a little work under saddle and sounds like you have a good trainer lined up!

*Not important at this point but I meant to say I would never directly confront someone with animals in that condition. Good way to get yourself in trouble or the animals in even worse trouble. I would however report it immediately and maybe the OPs vet already did. I'm sure if he has 50 head for sale someone has! Most situations aren't purely because the owner is aware of their condition but is lazy.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

Finally, Callie is off to the trainers! Im excited to get her back and see what kind of horse she turns out to be. She spooks at nothing on the ground, and she doesn't mind anything being done. Nothing phases her, so let's hope for the best! 

I got some pictures before she left, and I figured I'd put them on here as an update! 

I'm going to guess that the little speckles on her back and rump are caused by her rain scald? She had it pretty bad, and they're in the spots where it was worst. 

I can't believe how good she looks!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

Gorgeous!
Can't wait for updates <3


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

I was also going to ask, does anyone have any tips for growing out her tail? When she had worms, she rubbed her tail and now she's got this big fluff ball of short hairs on her tail head. 

I have some MTG, but I hate how it gets everywhere and makes them look greasy.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

She's for sure dun with that dorsal stripe. I'm leaning my answer now towards grullo/brown dun.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

She looks so much better! I'd warn the trainer to feed her good though or she'll lose all the ground you've gained with her weight.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

I told him what I feed her and gave him what I had left of her weight builder, so I'm not TOO concerned about that, but I'll keep in touch with him throughout her training. 

I think she looks awesome, too! 

Yogiwick is right about the black points. Hers are more gray than anything. I'm supposing I've just got a very unique red dun. 

And besides that, who knows what color she'll be next year? Well just have to wait and see!


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

She's looking a lot better than the first pictures! Wow! You are taking very good care of her. She looks beautiful.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

It seems I'm going to have to find a new trainer... Not a happy camper at the moment.

So I first sent my 3 year old colt to this guy for 6 weeks training at $500. The whole time he's texting me telling me how great Riley is doing and how awesome of a horse he is. I was pretty excited to get him back, as I've raised him from a foal, and I had been the only one doing any training with him. I had him where I could do almost anything and no flinching at all from him. I could rub my coat all over his body and a tarp. And he'd walk over the tarp and anywhere I asked him to go. Once he was old enough, I started searching for trainers in my area. I could find anyone for awhile, only people that start horses for friends and family. I finally found this guy. We discussed Riley and I decided I would go with him because he would take him and because he seemed to know what he was doing. 

So. While he was there, Callie started acting up, and I was satisfied with the updates I had been getting, so I asked him if he'd take her when he dropped Riley off. Which was another thing I thought was odd. He picked up and dropped off both of my horses. He lives about an hour away.

When I got Riley back he told me all the things I couldn't do with him. He's cold backed, I have to flex him for about five minutes before I get on, don't tie him up when I saddle him, because he gets "stupid," he's bullheaded, and it'd be best if I "run him around with the saddle on for about 10 minutes before I got on." He said that should get all of his bucking out.

He was also supposed to put new shoes on him, and he never messed with it.

Well, I had some things come up before I got a chance to ride him. It'd been a week and a half or so. I came into his pen with my saddle pad and he acted scared to death! Riley is an in your pocket horse, always has been, and if I had a saddle pad, I couldn't catch him for nothing, and if I hung it on the gate, he wouldn't eat his food, which is in a bucket tied to the gate. I just don't understand. When he brought Callie out today, he was gonna "solve" my problem real quick (after a quick text telling him how HAPPY I was with his training) and spent 20 minutes trying to catch him. It's just not my horse! 

Anyway, he brought Callie back out today (a week early, I paid for 30 days) and told me that Riley is 10 times the horse "that mare" is, and hed spend all his time on Riley if he was me, and don't even mess with her. 

He said some days she's worse than others, and she's never good. Said she kicked him 4 times (which she has NEVER tried with me, she's such a sweetheart) and there's nothing you can do with her.

When she gets mad she rears and then sits down. 

Now she's back, and she looks like she's lost some weight, but not like I expected her to, and she just looks sad. She came back pushy and disrespectful. 

So I'm at a loss. I'm $750 in just with training and I still don't have a horse I fully trust.

My question is, do you all think nothing can be done with Callie? I've been searching again for trainers and I've found some actual breeding farms and training facilities that actually have references and success stories. Would I be wasting my money sending her there?


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Did the vet say absolutely the mare is sound and fit to ride? It sounds like her history is so traumatic, and if she's trying to say she's hurting but went through a rough trainer who tries to force horses and not listen, it might have made things much worse.
The trainer sounds terrible. I'd be very careful working with your horses for awhile because he may have created all kinds of new issues such as pulling back, bucking, rearing, and others. Even if you can only find someone who trains horses for family and friends, but they turn out nice horses that people can ride, you would be better off than hiring a cheap trainer that tries to break horses using methods like having them buck things out.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

That's the thing though. He wasn't cheap. $500 is about the going price around here. He charged me $250 for riding Callie and only kept her three weeks. 

I'm having the vet back out soon for checkups and I'll fill him in on the situation, and get his advice.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Any "trainer" who uses phrases that a horse gets "stupid" , or bullheaded sometimes, or to just run him around for 10 minutes to get the bucking out, imo isn't worth his salt as a trainer. That sounds like a lazy response to him not adequately teaching the horse to accept the saddle or behave. I get the same impression from what you've mentioned he said about your mare. The majority of good trainers I've known always first rule out things like pain or discomfort before just deciding that the horse isn't worth bothering with. I think Riley's reaction says enough. Riding should be a pleasant experience for all involved and he shouldn't be afraid. I would cut your losses with this guy and find someone else. 

The trainer at my barn charges $35 per session, so $1050 for 30 sessions. That includes any required groundwork leading up to riding as well because she assesses where the horse is at first. If they've had most of the work leading up to riding done by the owner, and the horse appears ready to accept the new challenge of riding (meaning they aren't afraid of weight on their backs, tightened cinch, bridling, commands, etc.), she might start riding after just a few sessions. But if the horse shows fear or reluctance at a certain point, she doesn't move to the next step until the horse seems completely comfortable. She always sets the expectation with the owner right off the hop that she isn't a miracle worker. If a horse comes to her and is really missing some fundamental basics, she will always work on those first and never guarantees anything within a time frame. Not all horses are created equal and they all progress at different rates. She just recently had an 8 year old gelding sent to her who needed some serious work. He had been started at 3 then left untouched in the field for 5 years. She started from the ground and slowly progressed. When she started riding, she noticed that he started acting up and specifically to one side. She immediately talked to the owner and recommended the horse be examined by a vet. X-rays revealed he had an old stifle injury that didn't present itself until he started being exercised regularly. Her first response was to first rule out pain and I think any good trainer would first rule that out before making an assumption that it is strictly behaviour driven. 

I wish you luck and hope you're able to find someone more suitable to what you're looking for.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

Does anyone have tips on how to find a good trainer? 

Of course, after this experience, I'm going to be asking MANY questions before I even consider sending my horse. 

The highest price I've seen around here is $600 for 30 days. 

And price doesn't say much either. A few years back, when my grandpa was alive and really into the breeding business, he would keep his colts until breaking age (he kept them out on our 360 acres, with us grandkids going out to socialize them until they were weaned, then they were moved to up closer to do some more serious work with them, so he didn't have the expenses that come with stabling them) and send them to a guy that charged $300 for 30 days and when we got them back, they had all the "bells and whistles." No nonsense. They would do what was asked of them with enthusiasm. When we went to pick them up (he'd send about 4-6 a year) the guy would have his two year old little boy riding them (as much as a two year old is capable).

I wish he was still breaking horses! Or, at least, I could find someone as good as he was.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Is there a certain discipline you're looking at? You could start by looking at barns that specialize in a certain discipline. Have a list of questions written down so you don't forget anything and write down their responses. If you have a horse you can ride, maybe take a lesson or two with someone to see what their style is or if they teach classes, watch a few of those. You could ask things like:

How many years of experience do you have?
Have you competed in events? At what level? They don't have to have participated at a grand prix level or anything, but most trainers I've known like to go to at least a few shows a year (at any level) to showcase their capabilities and network within the community.
What is your main objective when working with a horse? You should ask this of yourself too and make sure your goals align. 
Do you have any references you can provide? 
What has been your greatest success? Failure? Every trainer always has at least one case that didn't go quite as planned. Find out what that was and why it didn't go as planned. It could be anything from the horse just ended up being dangerous to the owners not understanding the expectations.
Do you have certifications in anything? If so, up to what level? Not sure how it is in the US, but here a lot of trainers have certification(s) in their disciplines of choice and there are many levels they can work through. 
What do you need from me to ensure this is successful? Many trainers will insist that the owner takes a few lessons with them so they can show you the cues they've taught the horse and what (if any) idiosyncrasies they've discovered about the horse and how to work through those.

In reading these, they sound a lot like a job interview, which I guess it kind of is! You're trying to find the right fit for you and your horse.


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

I agree with Glynnis. I think your best bet is to find a trainer that also does lessons....take a few lessons, or if possible, sit in on a training session with that trainer. Most legit trainers have nothing to hide and would be happy to accommodate (Especially if it means gaining another paying client). 

Word of mouth can also be very helpful - talk to people in your community and chat with folks at the local tack/feed stores. I'm sure they could recommend someone suitable. 

Although, even if you find someone by word-of-mouth, I would still make a point to sit in on a training session or take a lesson with them. I don't think I'd ever send my horse off for training without knowing & seeing the training style. I'd also make sure to physically go to the trainer's while my horse was there to watch a session and see how she was coming along. 

- Good trainers will want to include you in this - they will have to 'train' you too and they should want to see you work & interact with your horse throughout the whole process.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

So I've gotten more pictures of Callie Jane!  

She's changing so much, getting more and more chocolate color all over her.

What I'm THINKING is liver chestnut+dun. I couldn't see red dun because I've always seen them with sorrel, not chestnut! So that's eased my mind, haha. 

I had to cut the forelock. The lice and bots were dead, but they were not leaving town! Haha. No worries, I've got some MTG left from Riley, so she'll be getting some of that. It seems her hair grows fast, anyhow, so it should be back soon!


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I would call her color "Dunskin". 

She already looks a lot better. Look forward to what she'll be like in a year. 

Did you find a trainer?


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

I have a few to look into. Haven't gotten around to calling them yet, though.

Her dark colors arent like black points I've seen, or else I would say dunskin, for sure! Her legs and dorsal are more of a chocolate color. Of course, it could still get darker, I suppose. 

My cousin hadn't seen her since I first brought her home, and when she saw her, she asked me if I bought a new one! She was floored when I told her that was Callie. 

Looking back on pictures from the night I brought her home, I just can't see her as the same horse. She was just defeated and sad. 

Now, looking at her, she's quirky and so funny! She's just a huge love bug and she LOVES peppermints! Probably more than me, haha. 

She's just got a different look in her eye.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

When it comes to dunskin, sometimes their dark points are black and sometimes they are chocolate. Just depends on the individual and she has already darkened on those points considerably since you first got her. If you spent about $50, you could color test for agouti and cream. If she carries 1 cream and at least 1 agouti, she is dunskin, the dun is obvious and is an unnecessary expense to test for unless you want to know her dun zygosity.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

Has anyone thought about silver? Silver + dun or dunskin? That could account for the chocolaty not-quite-red points.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

My mom purchased a gelding for some friends of ours years ago and we were told he was a dead broke sweet sweet gelding anyone could ride. As soon as we put a saddle on him and got on he threw a bucking fit! We checked the saddle pad and everything that could have irritated him and nothing. So we got a vet out and found out he had damage to his back because whoever broke him started riding him as a yearling. That could be the case for the mare you purchased. Only the horse we got was drugged so it looked like he was a dead broke horse. He was as sweet as could be without a doubt, but had damage to his back for the rest of his life. We sold him a few months after we got him to a lady who was looking for a pasture pal for her pony and now he's as happy as could be.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

I also really wanna say she looks like a grulla more than anything else. In the photo below is a smokey grulla horse.


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## timonlionking (Sep 28, 2015)

My moms favorite color is a grulla so that's not the first time I've heard it! Haha. 

And that's about how Callie was. She was perfect for my little cousins to ride. She had no funny business and took them around fine. Then she got a little healthier and had the energy to do something about it. 

She is also a _really_ sweet mare and I trust her completely with the kids on the ground, but never on her back. They love her, too, and don't seem to mind not getting to ride her.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

The way I found my trainer to start my filly was word of mouth. The mouths of people I already knew were smart and ethical and experienced with horses. 

If I didn't have such people I would ask on a local equine facebook group -- just to get started with a list. Then I'd visit some trainers and watch them train horses at the stage my horse was at (green horses). If they wouldn't let me watch, they'd get crossed off my list. The ones I liked I would ask for references from clients. And I would call up those clients and ask them hard questions. There's probably other ways to do it. 

All I know is that the couple grand in boarding & training fees I spent getting my unbroken horse ready for me to ride was money I do not regret at all. For that money I got a just barely greenbroke horse but I could take the next steps with her (riding under a trainer). 

I wish you all possible luck. She is a lovely mare and deserves a good life and kindness.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Maybe it would be best to find someone who would come to your place & work with Callie. That way you can see exactly what is going on & learn also.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

She looks so much better ! her color may change once she is really healthy and not all sun bleached. She does look sunbleached to me. 
That is one heck of a dorsal stripe . 
I hope you find a good trainer, sadly there are a lot of bad ones out there. 
Hope she becomes easier to work with , once she feels better .


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