# Different types of bay?



## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Bay is just bay genetic wise. But Seal bay, Blood bay are just ways to describe the shades. Like butter milk buckskin is just a light buckskin, and liver chestnut is just a darker chestnut. I would describe your mare as a copper bay .


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

She is a generic bay, what I will call "classic" bay for the sake of the rest of this discussion.

Genetically, there are three varieties of 'bay' - wild bay, classic bay and brown.

Here is an example of a wild bay. Note the lack of black extending up the legs - it stays down low. 











Here is an example of a brown. Notice that it mimics classic bay to a certain extent, but has more black hairs in the coat, and paler "soft" points - the muzzle, eye area, flank etc.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

^^Agreed. Genetically, there are only those 3 variations, but people will use as many as they want to differentiate _shades_ of bay; bright bay, copper bay, blood bay, brown bay, black bay (both of those tend to actually be genetically brown though LOL), etc, etc, etc.

Just like with red horses. Though a horse is still just genetically red (ee), folks will find infinite words to label the different shades.

I'd say that your boy is a classic bay...but as far as shade label, I'd call him either a bright bay or a copper bay. Gorgeous boy whatever color you want to call him.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

mivy is a classic bay..he also changes in shades in the seasons


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

TBforever, I think your boy is a brown to be honest


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

they have bay on rego papers.

but who knows they can mix colours up..i always thought bay had black points?


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

TBforever said:


> they have bay on rego papers.
> 
> but who knows they can mix colours up..i always thought bay had black points?


"Bay" is pretty standard Wetherby's description for most brown TB's in the UK if it has black points.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Brown also has black points, since it is a mutation of the agouti allele, just as bay is a mutation of the agouti allele. Brown is a horse with a brown coat, black "hard" points (legs, mane, tail etc) and paler "soft" points (muzzle, flank, eye area, behind the elbow, under the tail etc). Registries are notoriously bad for using correct colour names anyway.


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> Brown also has black points, since it is a mutation of the agouti allele, just as bay is a mutation of the agouti allele. Brown is a horse with a brown coat, black "hard" points (legs, mane, tail etc) and paler "soft" points (muzzle, flank, eye area, behind the elbow, under the tail etc). Registries are notoriously bad for using correct colour names anyway.


 
But in the UK it will be passported as bay and everyone will understand it as bay regardless of the genes. Common usage of words are not always technically correct by other people's definitions. If they ever start testing for colours and documenting them following that then things might change...but I somehow doubt it over here.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Clava said:


> But in the UK it will be passported as bay and everyone will understand it as bay regardless of the genes. Common usage of words are not always technically correct by other people's definitions. If they ever start testing for colours and documenting them following that then things might change...but I somehow doubt it over here.


Doesn't mean I will stop educating the masses 

I hear you though. Australia is very much like the UK in colour terms. If I had a dollar for every time I heard skewbald, or someone called a buckskin a dun, or a grey a roan...


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## Clava (Nov 9, 2010)

Chiilaa said:


> Doesn't mean I will stop educating the masses
> 
> I hear you though. Australia is very much like the UK in colour terms. If I had a dollar for every time I heard skewbald, or someone called a buckskin a dun, or a grey a roan...


I did try the discussion over here, but really no-one was interested.:-| As said many times, you wont get the Irish to stop calling the connemaras "duns" even though I don't think the gene is in that breed.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It's not there lol.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

what classes a bay..this is very interesting


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## mammakatja (Nov 3, 2009)

Cool discussion. My bays are all over the place on paper. I have a bay that looks very much like the OP's bay (he is gorgeous by the way), but she is actually a registered solid paint. So to the eye I guess she's a classic bay? And then just a few weeks ago we added to our equine family. He's a registered quarter horse with dark bay on his papers. So is he a brown with black hard points like someone mentioned or do I call him a dark bay? He even gets very subtle dapples in the summer time. I like his color.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I definitely wouldn't call your horse brown. Brown (or seal bay) looks mostly black, with bay points.
He looks like a pretty standard bay to me~


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Zexious said:


> I definitely wouldn't call your horse brown. Brown (or seal bay) looks mostly black, with bay points.
> He looks like a pretty standard bay to me~


Not necessarily. Brown/seal bay/ seal brown can come in varying shades, from dark to light. The tip off is the lighter areas along the muzzle, flank, eyes, etc. and it's definitely a lot easier to identify those points when the horse is darker. The mare in my avatar is brown and because of her dark colour, the lighter "cinnamon" coloured points on her muzzle, etc. are easy to see, but there are plenty of other brown horses that are lighter than her.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^I should have said typically. I am aware that there is variation in all horse colors.


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## TBforever (Jan 26, 2013)

so miover would be classed as brown not bay?


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## DuckDodgers (May 28, 2013)

TBforever said:


> they have bay on rego papers.
> 
> but who knows they can mix colours up..i always thought bay had black points?


My very obviously wild bay is registered as a chestnut. I guess if you solely looked at the lack of black on his hind legs above his stockings you MAY be able to say that... but you'd have to neglect the black mane and tail as well


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

mammakatja said:


> View attachment 305762


I would bet this horse is brown. When his winter coat comes in, I would love to see more photos


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## Northernstar (Jul 23, 2011)

This is an interesting discussion, and educational! - I have a true bay Morgan, with all the dark points required, and then acquired her half-sister in Sept. (same dam/different sire) who is a "liver chestnut" Morgan, a shade of which I've never seen until now. Nothing surprises me!


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## mammakatja (Nov 3, 2009)

Chiilaa said:


> I would bet this horse is brown. When his winter coat comes in, I would love to see more photos


He's already grown quite a bit of winter fuzz since we bought him on Sept.15 which is when this picture was taken. And he's definitely lighter around the muzzle. I'll have to revisit this thread when he's completely grown out his coat.


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## mammakatja (Nov 3, 2009)

Now what about my mare in the pics I posted previously. She's the more classic bay I guess. You can't see it in the pic because she's saddled but she also has a pretty decent dorsal stripe that is more obvious in the summer. What does that mean in a bay? Our dark bay doesn't have that.

And she's half paint (her dam was a sorrel tobiano, her sire was an appendix)


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