# Increasing chances of splash?



## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Well you mare is showing a frame pattern... Is that what you are referring to? (I mean as in her pattern. She does look to have splash as well, but the majority of her white is caused by frame and not splash).

Either way there is no way to guarantee an increase in a chance of white. it is totally random on placement. We can give you genetics that a foal might possibly get, but there is no way to predetermine the size/amount of white a foal would have.

If you are wanting a specific type/color/size of white pattern you are better of buying.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

It is hit and miss, but before considering breeding your splash overo, you may want to test for frame to eliminate the possibilities of producing a lethal white. It hides itself quite well, and your mare may be a carrier -to me, she looks more like a minimally expressed frame than she does a splash IMO. If your mare is a carrier, any stallion that is also a carrier should be removed off your list. From there you can look at other studs with the splash gene, but it is going to be a gamble to get what you are looking for. It may be far easier to find a young foal on the market that has the color, conformation, and breeding that you desire. 

I know that in my mom's case, she wasn't able to find what she was looking for on the horse market, so she is breeding for it. She is guaranteed the color she wants but not the gender or markings that she desires. She made selective choices in mare and stallion that increases her odds of getting what she wants with breeding well conformed, well bred, and good temperaments that carry the traits to produce the coloration she is trying to acheive.

edit- ND replied before me, I take forever to type and proof read


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

I understand that the "smart" thing to do would be to buy what I am looking for but color is not my priority just a "would be nice" factor. 

Since she is overo I thought I could not breed to another overo, period. So you are saying if a stud tests negative I could safely breed to another overo?

is it just frame overos that produce OLWS? What would I be testing for to be sure no matter what she was bred to there would not be a chance for OLWS, or is that possible? OR as long as the say "frame overo" stud is negative it is safe to breed? it's just when both are positive there can be problems, right?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Splash _*is *_white markings. 

Everything Sunny and I said isn't going to change. It is the exact same answer. There is no way to increase the chance.

Same answer as before. You want a certain color/pattern you're better off buying it.


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

SunnyDraco said:


> She made selective choices in mare and stallion that increases her odds of getting what she wants with breeding well conformed, well bred, and good temperaments that carry the traits to produce the coloration she is trying to acheive.


 
This is exactly what I am trying to do :wink: Color defiantly isn't my MAIN goal but it would be really nice.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

You edited you other post since I posted my last one.

Frame is OLWS and OLWS is frame. There are other overo patterns though and they are all called "over" (which is asinine, but that is a whole different rant of mine).

Yes breeding to a frame/OLWS negative stud and you would have no problems.

ETA Every Frame/OLWS to Frame/OLWS breeding produces a 25% chance of a non-carrier, 50% chance of carrier, and a 25% chance of a lethal foal. That is every pairing, not over the breeding lifetime. _Every pairing_ of positive horses the foal has a chance to be one fo the three outcomes listed above.


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> There is no way to increase the chance..


That's wrong. 

If I were to breed her to a solid chestnut my chances of paint markings would be far less than breeding to a paint. I am just asking what would be the best paint pattern (tobiano,tovero,overo-sabino,frame,splash etc ) to get what I am looking for...


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Yes breeding to a frame/OLWS negative stud and you would have no problems.


 
But FRAME overos are the only carries? Would a splash overo need to be tested?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

No it's not wrong. You can breed to very minimal marked horses and get an extremely loud colored foal. You can breed to loud colored horses and get a solid. It is a gamble.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

OrangeToes said:


> But FRAME overos are the only carries? Would a splash overo need to be tested?


I wouldn't breed your mare any horse that hasn't been tested. Frame/OLWS is extremely good at hiding behind other patterns or even hiding on solid horse.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Tobiano won't give you a pattern like your mare's. But any QUALITY paint stud that compliments your mare and for the discipline you are breeding for would be good so long as you aren't breeding two OLWS carriers.


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> I wouldn't breed your mare any horse that hasn't been tested. Frame/OLWS is extremely good at hiding behind other patterns or even hiding on solid horse.


I totally agree.

Just a general question


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

Is anyone familiar with any nice OLWS negative studs?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Frame is the only overo pattern that produces OLWS foals. Do not assume that frame is not there on any horse (unless it isn't within that particular breed, but I am meaning stock type horses and JC horses). It can hide under tobiano, it can hide under splash, it can hide under pretty much everything.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

I know a few nice OLWS negative studs... It all depends on what discipline and breeding/lines you are looking for...


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

reining and cutting


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Smokes Navajo - Home

^^^ He;s negative for frame, just tested heterozygous for splash. His owner is a member here as well.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Don't know what you are looking for discipline/budget wise, but I did a quick search for paints at stud in California listed on horseclicks and found a chestnut splash stud. Doesn't say if he has been tested for OLWS though.









Excellent Paint Stallion for Stud Service - Triple XL


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

I like both but I really like Smokes Navajo.

Here's another really ridiculous question....Shipped semen-on the stallion contract they state how studs ranch will care for mare, I thought shipped semen was where it was shipped to MARE and then your vet did AI?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

He looks more halter bred than using bred to me Sunny.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

NdAppy said:


> He looks more halter bred than using bred to me Sunny.


 
I'm a slow typer, made the comment before I knew the discipline :lol:


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

Check out this thread http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/uc-davis-has-test-splash-publicly-109402/
for some more info on Splash.

When breeding paints, and NdAppy and others have pointed out, there is always the chance of a minimally marked foal. It can happen with tobis, frames, splashes, etc. That is why I don't believe in "color guarantees" It would be better worded as a "copy of ___ gene guarantee" 

The "expression of white" is something that science is yet to be able to fully predict, but hopefully someday!
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/uc-davis-has-test-splash-publicly-109402/


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Yes, Shipped semen is shipped to the mare owner. The part about mare care is there for any mares brought to the Stallion owner for breeding and does not apply for Shipped semen. I am guessing you are looking at Navajo's contract?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

CCH said:


> Check out this thread http://www.horseforum.com/horse-colors-genetics/uc-davis-has-test-splash-publicly-109402/
> for some more info on Splash.
> 
> When breeding paints, and NdAppy and others have pointed out, there is always the chance of a minimally marked foal. It can happen with tobis, frames, splashes, etc. That is why I don't believe in "color guarantees" It would be better worded as a "copy of ___ gene guarantee"
> ...


Here is Smokes Navajo's owner! 

*waves at CCH*


ETA Hehehe Sunny it happens! I didn't know if you had looked at or knew AQHA/APHA halter horses at all.


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

:wave: hehe!! I totally wouldn't be on if I wasn't done with all of my work and having to sit as the only one in the office until 5.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Go watch the Misnamed Toys video again! lol


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Yes, Shipped semen is shipped to the mare owner. The part about mare care is there for any mares brought to the Stallion owner for breeding and does not apply for Shipped semen. I am guessing you are looking at Navajo's contract?


 
I just breifly peeked :lol:


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Well CCH is awesome to deal with and I _know_ she would be happy to answer any questions if you had any.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Wouldn't the best chance for color be a homozygous tobiano?


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

What ND is saying is that even getting a white pattern gene, such as tobiano or splash, is no guarantee that the horse will be coloured. I have seen examples of frame and tobiano where there is no white on the horse at all, including a homozygous tobiano. The only sure way to get colour is to buy a horse that is already on the ground.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

For what it's worth, here is an example of loud coloring not producing a colored foal.

This is my mare's dam, Jess. Very obviously frame and splash. 









Jess + solid palomino QH = Abby









Solid colored except for her large blaze and a dinky white spot behind her right elbow (barely visible in that picture) that doesn't qualify her for regular APHA papers. She is positive for Frame. (Negative for Splash, unfortunately. :-()

In the future, I would also like to breed her to Navajo. I have a 25% chance of getting both splash and frame on the resulting foal, 50% of getting one or the other, and 25% of getting neither. However, as shown by Abby above, carrying the gene does not mean it is expressed.


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> Wouldn't the best chance for color be a homozygous tobiano?


I would end up with a 80% + chance of a tovero which I would rather a overo.

I think I am going to have my mare tested for OLWS and splash and find a stud carrying splash then I have pretty good chances of atleast getting SOME type of overo even if it is not splash it should be overo but possibly minimally marked.


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## CCH (Jan 23, 2011)

I don't know of too many splash cutting horses. Partly because paints only make up a small percentage of horses that show NCHA and then that number is further divided between the genetically different types of paints.

The other big issue you face with certain types of splash is deafness. For instance, Gunnar and many of his offspring are completely deaf. Deafness doesn't mean the horse can't be great, but it certainly will require alternate methods and different care.

Navajo and Snoopy both have perfect hearing. Especially when they hear the wrappers of sqeezy buns crinkle!

I would be remiss if I didn't point out that Navajo is *negative* for HERDA, GBED, PSSM1, and OLWS. He is heterozygous for Splash1. I have yet to find another cutting stallion who has those (published) genetic results. I've been looking for a while too because I want my *dream* splash broodie.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bulletshaunforever (Feb 4, 2012)

ur horse is so pretty


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

I know there is no FOR SURE in breeding just trying to increase your chances.

I highly doubt I will find a nice splash stud, I will probably end up going with just a nice cutting paint whether it be a tobiano,overo,tovero etc as long as the baby is well put together I am happy, color would be a plus. 

I do really like Navajo but none of his foals have traditional paint markings, beautiful markings, but not "traditional" paint patterns and most were bred to sorrel overo mares like my mare. I will defiantly keep him in mind though, color or no color I do really like him. And for as nice as he is and with him being negative OLWS,HERDA,GBED, and PSSM1 that is a _very_ nice stud fee you have.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Lets just clarify some things here... what exactly type of markings are you trying to get? what are you referring to as "traditional paint markings" (as Navajo is traditionally marked)?

As to increasing the chances... Once again you can get the gene (such as Po's mare Abby) but not have the color. There are no guarantees or ways to increase the chance of getting any certain types of markings.


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

NdAppy said:


> Lets just clarify some things here... what exactly type of markings are you trying to get? what are you referring to as "traditional paint markings" (as Navajo is traditionally marked)?
> 
> As to increasing the chances... Once again you can get the gene (such as Po's mare Abby) but not have the color. There are no guarantees or ways to increase the chance of getting any certain types of markings.


By "traditional" I mean body markings not socks/stockings/blaze/bald face etc, Navajo has a body marking but his foals do not.

There ARE ways to increase your chances if I breed to say a solid black my chances of a marked baby are not as high as breeding to say a homozygous tobiano, granted, I COULD get a paint but not as likely as if I where to go with the homozygous tobiano. 

Of course there are not any guarantees.


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## nrhareiner (Jan 11, 2009)

OrangeToes said:


> I know there is no FOR SURE in breeding just trying to increase your chances.
> 
> I highly doubt I will find a nice splash stud, I will probably end up going with just a nice cutting paint whether it be a tobiano,overo,tovero etc as long as the baby is well put together I am happy, color would be a plus.


 
Smart and Shiney.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

You have to take into consideration that those are not all of his foals (he has more, and marked ones at that). Those are only the ones that she is able to post pictures on her site of. 

Other than buying what you want, no there is no real way to increase your chances for color. Heck breeding to a homozygous tobiano doesn't even guarantee that you will get a white pattern. It just guarantees you will get the gene.


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

Poseidon said:


> Other than buying what you want, no there is no real way to increase your chances for color. Heck breeding to a homozygous tobiano doesn't even guarantee that you will get a white pattern. It just guarantees you will get the gene.


Like I said I will probably just end up finding a nice cutting paint and forget about color and seeing what happens


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

Either way, good luck. Solid-Paint Breds need some love too though. :lol:


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## OrangeToes (Oct 2, 2010)

Poseidon said:


> Either way, good luck. Solid-Paint Breds need some love too though. :lol:


Oh don't get me wrong I LOVE me a nice solid, just with this mare I would really like some markings :wink:


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