# Bad instructor? Rant-ish



## ChronOfMe (Oct 16, 2020)

So, I’m getting back into riding. I took English lessons as a kid and I decided to try Western this time around and maybe barrel racing. 

I tried a few barns out, but after my first lesson at the one where I currently have a package (the one I’m about to rant about) I thought I found a great fit. 

Five lessons later and I feel like I’m being taken for a ride (a bad one).

This instructor tells me to do things that I know are bad riding habits. For example tells me to lean back to the point of ridiculousness when no other instructor has ever critiqued my posture. I’m used to sitting UP in the saddle. On my pockets, but not almost lateral. 

She tells me to keep kicking the horse even while they are doing what I want. 

I stopped listening to her and things got much better. I use leg pressure to ask and released when they move off it. Ignoring about 30 instructions to kick, but getting the result I want. 

She will click and kiss at the horse I’m riding instead of letting me do it. This leads to the horses diverting to her and even trying to override me to go over to her. 

Every time I get the hang of something she makes me switch to something else instead of letting me build muscle memory on the first skill. 

Today I took and English lesson at another barn and I was surprised. 

Not only did I enjoy going back to English more than riding Western, but I realized that the western instructor has been having me GALLOP and calling it a canter. 


I knew something was off, but I have never galloped on purpose before. Today I enjoyed actually cantering in an English saddle and then I watched people gallop and realized galloping is like what I have been doing.

Nothing is ever fast enough for her so I assumed she was just trying to get me to speed up the gait. She only ever says “good” when I’m doing the gallop. Which I feel like I’m going to bounce right out of. From what I’ve seen people tend to sit more forward in the gallop.

She also doesn’t want me to look at the barrel while I’m turning which pros do all the time and it makes it easier to do a tight circle. But she doesn’t want me dipping right circles... because you want overreached barrel turns. 

She wouldn’t let me canter when I wanted to, but then randomly had me gallop in a private lesson. In the group lessons she acts like all I can do is trot. 

Not to mention the fact that she put me on a boarders underweight horse (I can count all of the ribs) for my group lesson today.

Every lesson it’s a different sour horse. I feel like the horse and I start forming an understanding, but then I get switched to another poorly cared for horse and have to start all over. 


She put me on two different mares that she said were having health issues then kept telling me to kick as hard as I could when they didn’t want to work. 

And then today was the starving horse that belongs to a boarder/ her “friend”. But when I asked for clarification about what was going on it was gibberish gibberish the owner doesn’t ride him anymore. But he’s still starving at your facility. He gets 1 flake of alfalfa a day. 

He was a very good horse and I had fun trotting around on him, but I felt bad for him and idk why I couldn’t ride the mare I had a good lesson with yesterday.

I’m just done with this barn.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

ChronOfMe said:


> She also doesn’t want me to look at the barrel while I’m turning which pros do all the time and it makes it easier to do a tight circle. But she doesn’t want me dipping right circles... because you want overreached barrel turns.


 It is quite obvious that this barn and trainer are not a fit for you and you need to move on, but I want to comment on this.


NO, you do NOT look at the barrel when you are turning it. The pros do NOT do it all the time. You instead look at the point on the ground where you want your horse to travel while you are going around the barrel. Remember that your horse will always go where you look so think about that. You don't want your horse to run over the barrel, right? So that is why you do NOT look at it. 



I think auto-correct might have messed up your last sentence because I can't quite make out what you are trying to say with "dipping" right circles and "overreached" barrel turns.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

If you prefer the kind of riding that English gives you but want to try "Western" then I'd recommend sticking with things like Western Dressage or Cowboy Dressage. Those are probably the closest thing to what you seem to like about Dressage/English. 

For something like Barrel Racing, what is correct is whatever gets the horse around those three barrels with the rider still aboard in the absolute fastest possible time. Frankly some of those horses at the NFR/American caliber are monsters in several senses of the word, but dang they are fast and the riders are really really sticky. 

If you go to a good Reining coach they are going to have you doing things like big fast circles, little slow circles, sliding stops and snappy rollbacks until you can do them well enough to compete. They won't care if you look stiff as a board and have your hat on backwards if you can nail the pattern because that is all that matters in the arena. 

Western is a lot of sub categories and in the competitive ones the things that win is what a good coach or instructor should be teaching. My recommendation is if you try it again think in terms of what looks fun and then find somebody good at it that has been successful at a competitive level that teaches.


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## horselovinguy (Oct 1, 2013)

First off, WELCOME to the Forum...

Sounds like you did more than a little riding as a kid if you are cantering and galloping western or English already and running the barrel pattern.
Those are not "beginner" things done but for a far more advanced rider...

So, not a child anymore and you know what you know and are ranting about the quality of instruction, horses you are being told to ride and how comes..........
So, speak up......
Why are you not questioning, _politely questioning_, why you are being told to do things you know of as grossly exaggerated or wrong?
Why if you are learning the aspects of barrels are you not working correct form cause there is form and then adding the speed when to you you are not with the horse galloping but bouncing along not in time to the animals strides...
Question this instructor and learn their answers...
You will then know if this instructor is worth her salt in instructing you or you need to find another venue and line of instruction, possibly specific discipline if you not really like barrels...there is a lot to choose from today.
First thing though is open your mouth and ask questions and listen for the answers...
You may have a good instructor just bad communicator or you could have a bad instructor, period...
Or, you might find you know a bit more than they thought, can do more than you anticipated so they put you further along in private lessons than you can do in a group setting since groups you ride to the ability of the majority not one.
Rant all you want, but unless you speak up and ask you will have no answers and no knowledge of stay or go. :|
:runninghorse2:...


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Wow, are you riding at my barn??? If you were riding English, I'd really suspect it.

The very worst thing is the instructor kissing and clicking at the horse to go. I will ask the horse to go when I want to ask them to go. Luckily now that I'm riding my own Pony, he listens to me and not to her, but it was awful when I was riding lesson horses. She's ask me to canter, and I'd start getting ready to ask for the canter, but before I could she'd be clucking at the lesson horse to go. That is not AT ALL helpful to someone who is trying to learn.

Also putting people on horses that are lame / injured / underweight / unhealthy.

I think it's a good thing that you've realized this is not a good fit and that it's time to move on.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Outside of the terrible practice of riding underfed or ill horses, I would like to make one comment on the use of 'clucking or kissing' by the instructor;


Often times these instructors are used to dealing with people who are so new to riding that they really just need a LOT of time in the saddle to gain a feel for the movements. So, the instructor does the 'work' of getting the movements so that the student can just work on learning how to ride them. The student is not yet able to cue the movement, AND not lose their correct position . 



In the old days, the instructor would have you on a lungeline, with no hands on the reins, for many lessons to gain your seat, THEN you could start applying cues. But, nowadays, people do not have the patience to work to achieve a true 'seat'. They want to jump into a particular discipline right off the bat. And, instructors need to make a living, so they oblige.


I hope you find a good place for lessons.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

tinyliny said:


> Often times these instructors are used to dealing with people who are so new to riding that they really just need a LOT of time in the saddle to gain a feel for the movements. So, the instructor does the 'work' of getting the movements so that the student can just work on learning how to ride them. The student is not yet able to cue the movement, AND not lose their correct position .


If my instructor had explained that she was going to cue the horse for me (even though she had just told me to cue him), that would have been different. If she were not, over two years later, still clucking at him, I might not mind.

But that's just me and my own experience. Hopefully it won't be OP's experience for much longer.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Western riding is different than English. If you aren't willing to adjust, don't. But don't expect to ride the same way.

"On your pockets" doesn't mean lean back, although an instructor might tell you to lean back in an attempt to get the idea across. You aren't sitting tall in the saddle and on your pockets. It is hard to describe because it is hard to see. It is almost an attitude instead of a position. Slouch a little, relaxing the back, and let your pelvis rotate slightly back. I know how it feels when I do it but would be hard pressed to explain it.

It puts you a little "behind the horse" but that is OK because the western saddle tree continues WAY beyond your butt and the PSI on a western saddle, no matter what you do, will still be trivial behind the cantle. It isn't an English saddle:







I find a gallop (4-beat) smoother than a canter (3-beat). Like lots of riders, I lean forward when going faster, but maybe not as far forward as some would teach. In any case, I know from personal experience that my actual position is rarely what I feel it is! Ask someone to take a video of you riding and then watch it in slow motion. The instructor may be seeing what you are DOING, not what you FEEL you are doing!

*Or...the instructor may stink.* Plenty do. But I can't pile on her when I cannot see how you ride. You may be right. But it is also possible she is telling you what is right and you are not getting it.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

A bit of perspective. I can read a very different story than what you are saying.



ChronOfMe said:


> This instructor tells me to do things that I know are bad riding habits. For example tells me to lean back to the point of ridiculousness when no other instructor has ever critiqued my posture. I’m used to sitting UP in the saddle. On my pockets, but not almost lateral.


No one starts with a perfect position. That your previous instructors never corrected your position is more of a failing on them. Many times when told to sit up and back, what the rider feels is very different than what the instructor sees. Many a dressage rider have sworn they were nearly laying flat across the rump when in reality they were just vertical. Are there mirrors in the arena?



> She tells me to keep kicking the horse even while they are doing what I want.


But is it what the instructor wants? Maybe they want the horse to be more forward, so want you to kick them up, compared to you who may feel the 'too slow' pace is fast enough.



> I stopped listening to her and things got much better. I use leg pressure to ask and released when they move off it. Ignoring about 30 instructions to kick, but getting the result I want.


Again, is it the result the instructor wants? You are paying them for their knowledge. If you're not going to listen, why go?



> She will click and kiss at the horse I’m riding instead of letting me do it. This leads to the horses diverting to her and even trying to override me to go over to her.


Makes me think again that the instructor wants more pace.




> Every time I get the hang of something she makes me switch to something else instead of letting me build muscle memory on the first skill.


Have you asked if you can spend more time on certain exercises? It could be the instructor is wanting to avoid drilling exercises. Many times when learning a new skill, an instructor will only have you successfully repeat it 2-3 times then move onto something more familiar.



> Western, but I realized that the western instructor has been having me GALLOP and calling it a canter.
> 
> I knew something was off, but I have never galloped on purpose before. Today I enjoyed actually cantering in an English saddle and then I watched people gallop and realized galloping is like what I have been doing.
> 
> Nothing is ever fast enough for her so I assumed she was just trying to get me to speed up the gait. She only ever says “good” when I’m doing the gallop. Which I feel like I’m going to bounce right out of. From what I’ve seen people tend to sit more forward in the gallop.


You probably weren't galloping. Most riding arenas aren't big enough to achieve a gallop and most lesson horses aren't that motivated. Even barrel racing, most of the time it's still a canter, albeit a big one. Gallop is when all 4 legs leave the ground in a moment of suspension. The gallop is usually ridden in a forward seat, but you can ride the canter in a forward seat too.



> She also doesn’t want me to look at the barrel while I’m turning which pros do all the time and it makes it easier to do a tight circle. But she doesn’t want me dipping right circles... because you want overreached barrel turns.


I don't know much about barrel racing, but in general you don't want to look at the obstacle, ie jumps. Emulating professional riders isn't always a good thing. There's plenty of professional show jumpers with horrendous equitation that win, but they aren't teaching their students to ride like that.



> She wouldn’t let me canter when I wanted to, but then randomly had me gallop in a private lesson. In the group lessons she acts like all I can do is trot.


I'm sure it wasn't as random as it seems and she may not want you cantering at a certain moment because you or the horse weren't set up correctly. That's why we pay instructors. To tell us the things we can't see.



> Not to mention the fact that she put me on a boarders underweight horse (I can count all of the ribs) for my group lesson today.
> 
> Every lesson it’s a different sour horse. I feel like the horse and I start forming an understanding, but then I get switched to another PITA (b/c poorly cared for) horse and have to start all over.
> 
> ...


You've ridden here 5 times, presumably weekly lessons. How do you know what these horses are eating all day? If there's a feed board that says 1 flake of alf, it might not also list the grass hay or pasture the horse is getting.
Just saying you can see the ribs doesn't make me jump to starving. It's better to see rib than have them too covered, so if you are expecting to see a fat horse, your eye can deceive you. If it's a lighter built or older horse who isn't that muscled, you might see more, but it isn't necessarily enough to prevent them from doing a beginner lesson a few times a week.

Maybe these horses are sour and in poor condition. Wouldn't be the first lesson barn to take terrible care of their horses. It also wouldn't be the first time someone jumped to conclusions about a program.


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## Palfrey (May 29, 2020)

I've had my fair share of "bad" instructors. All you can do is move on and find someone that speaks your language (if you get my meaning). I can't say if this is a bad instructor as I don't ride western, but I will say that if it's not working for you I would just stop going. If you have a better experience with the English place then that's where I'd go. Good luck.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

ACinATX said:


> If my instructor had explained that she was going to cue the horse for me (even though she had just told me to cue him), that would have been different. If she were not, over two years later, still clucking at him, I might not mind.
> 
> But that's just me and my own experience. Hopefully it won't be OP's experience for much longer.





That would aggravate me, too. I remember in some of my first lessons having my instructor 'chase' the hrose with a lunge whip becasue I couldn't get him to canter. very frustrating. But, it was my own fault; I kept leaning forward when asking for the canter and getting a racing, unbalanced trot.


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## MeditativeRider (Feb 5, 2019)

As another take on the instructor kissing/clucking at the horse, I think the amount of time these people have spent around horses, it is just an ingrained habit. Many times they are probably not doing it actively as a "I should really get this horse to move on" kind of thing, but it just comes out. Have you ever tried talk to your instructor about it? They might actually not really realize that they do it and might be perfectly happy to try and stop (try as it may be hard to actually stop). Alternatively, they might have a specific reason they think they are doing it for that they could discuss with you. Perhaps the horse is really hard to get going but you do not quite have effective legs yet. 

I really hate the chasing with the lunge whip into canter. I find it makes the horse go into even more of a racy trot that is really bouncy and hard to sit.


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## ChronOfMe (Oct 16, 2020)

bsms said:


> bsms said:
> 
> 
> > Western riding is different than English. If you aren't willing to adjust, don't. But don't expect to ride the same way.
> ...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

ChronOfMe said:


> ....The instructor in question is telling me to lean back when as you said it is natural to lean forward when going faster. Are you saying that leaning forward is natural, but incorrect?
> 
> I'm not saying my position is perfect, I'm just confused about the instruction to keep leaning back when it is natural to lean slightly forward when going into a tight turn, faster gait...
> 
> There are a lot of possibilities here and I will finish out my package and ask for more clarification on her instructions before I decide to quit.


It is both possible and acceptable in western riding to lean forward at speed. But it can also be acceptable and possible to NOT lean forward at speed and still be riding the horse well. The rear of a western saddle tree will protect the horse's loin and back. By staying erect and absorbing the motion in your hips - which for me at least requires me to curl my pelvis a little under me - you can move WITH the horse and still be just a little "behind the horse" - which can be very useful if your horse is likely to slow suddenly, or stumbles, etc.

I learned about riding from reading and trying to follow the advice of VS Littauer, who taught jumping and the Forward SYSTEM of riding. During the few months of western lessons I took, the instructor kept trying to get me to lean back and get on my pockets. That didn't help because that really wasn't the issue. It is more of decoupling my back from my hips, and my hips from my thighs, and letting that decoupling allow my body to flow with the horse's motion while staying vertical in the saddle.

I'm sorry I cannot explain it better. Playing around with things this spring, I finally caught the feel of it and could see how it works well, but it is very hard to describe. And after playing around with things, I think I'm going to return to a shorter stirrup and my Forward System roots. My horse doesn't seem to care either way! Both approaches work.

I don't barrel race and cannot speak to what works best in that sport. I'm just trying to explain what your instructor, like mine some years back, MAY be trying to get across. My wife and my DIL seem to instinctively ride "on their pockets". My 60+ year old male back may be too stiff to perform it very well.

And as you say, it is also entirely possible your instructor is giving bad advice. I once had a riding instructor tell me to collect my horse by pushing her forward with my legs while holding her back with the bit to fold her up in between like a Slinky! My Arabian mare showed no interest in being turned into an equine Slinky and I parted ways with that instructor.

Good luck to you and your riding!


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

ChronOfMe said:


> Nowhere in my post did I say I wasn't going to adjust. If I didn't want to listen I wouldn't be paying for lessons or asking if the instructor is bad here.



You said in your OP, you stopped listening and just did what you wanted. That seems to imply that you didn't want to listen to her.





Just because something is a natural inclination doesn't mean it's right. Leaning forward is the wrong thing to do in many 'natural' situations. And its not _just_ about leaning forward. There's a right and a wrong way to be forward. Do it wrong and you effect balance, aid effectiveness, and puts you in a vulnerable position.


But you do you. I was just pointing out why the things you said made them a bad instructor, might not be so.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I'm a believer in studying what the best are actually doing, so have a look at the current Thomas & Mack arena record run from the 2018 NFR. 






If this is just for fun and a way to be with horses it doesn't really matter aside from you are annoyed with some things that happen there which is understandable. If you think this is probably going to be something more, even amateur level rodeos and jackpots, then it is cheaper in the long run to spend your training money with someone who does it professionally and knows how to win when the competition is super tough.


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## Jolly101 (Jul 2, 2018)

Hello @ChronOfMe, 

I think at the end of the day, you have already made up your mind about this instructor and the juste is that you don't feel confident with this instructor. You need an instructor who is able to clearly explain and give context to the corrections they are telling you to make, in a way that makes sense to you. I don't feel there is any need to speculate whether this instructor was in the right or wrong because that will not change my advice for you. 

I'd suggest in continuing with the English instructor you seemed to like because I feel you will be much happier there. You've already taken a lesson there and it left a positive impression on you. I take it that the instructor was also more your 'vibe', so it is a no brainer to me that this would be a better fit for you, until you have outgrown where they can take you. 

If you still feel the need to do western, whilst at the new barn, then no worries because you can switch somewhat easily if you have the correct basics. I would do your research in what western discipline you'd prefer. Western pleasure might even be more up your alley because I think they might focus a bit more on position than some of the other disciplines in western and I think you are wanting to solidify that position before moving on, which is a good thing! As someone here mentioned, reining or cowboy dressage might be to your preference, so look for instructors that specialize in those areas when the time comes.


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## ChronOfMe (Oct 16, 2020)

Welp I’m still there and thinking it was just a difference in communication styles or I was frustrated that I wasn’t finding lessons to be easy. I hate not being good at things and people claim Western is easier—well it isn’t that much easier because there is still a learning curve, but my riding is actually improving and the instructor pushes me. And barrels are not easy— you may not fall off as much as jumpers, but it is a challenge. 

Thank you everyone for your input, that’s why I posted. 

As far as the skinny horse, well the barn is doing him more justice than the crap owner is. He’s basically working lessons to earn his own food as the owner is responsible for feeding him herself (both buying the food and physically giving it to him) and just hasn’t been—she rarely sees him at all.. The staff have been on her about it and now he has a job and so the staff has a reason to feed him themselves and he is getting exercise in the process. 

He isn’t their horse/property and the barn is doing the best they can for him. Sad because he’s my favorite horse I’ve ever ridden. He really tries even when he gets tired from being out of shape.

Obviously my instructor and I have very different personalities because I’d get ornery about that horse becoming my property, but I can’t blame others for being more diplomatic.


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