# How "long backed" is my horse?......(PIV HEAVY)



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I dont think his back is all THAT long. remember , it's from the back edge of his wither bone to the pelvis that measures the back, and since he has a nicely sloped shoulder, the wither is set further back than some horses.
This horse looks like he has some draft in him, or maybe mustang (who sometimes have draft in them). Is this true? his hind end is quite vertical with legs that are a bit posty and a somewhat steep and small hip. But I would not categorize it as weak. He has really nice bone all around, a lovely neck of good length and set on the shoulder correctly. nice feet. I rather like the look of him. He may not be a good build for dressage, though. YOu can make the best of him or not, as per your skill and willingness to patiantly work on building his muscle correctly. 
One thing about long backed horses; they are often very comfortable for the rider! I mean are a smooth ride.


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## redape49 (Jul 29, 2011)

His back is not long. It just looks long because of his rump being small. He has nice bone and feet I like a lot. I would work on backing him to build some muscle in his rump. Gorgeous horse he looks like a big boy.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

If I remember correctly, this is the horse that has a lot of Hancock in his lines, correct? That would account for his appearance. Hancock horses are fairly well known as having larger heads and coarse features, which would explain the "mustang" look.

Yes, his back is longer than ideal and yes, his hip is small, but I believe the horse is still rather young (2-3) so he will bulk up in his hip as he grows a bit older. However, his stifle angle is a little bit too straight. He probably will have trouble really rounding up and tracking up, but getting him to work at it will help to strengthen his weak points and make him an all-around stronger horse.


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## Ecsworkshops (Jan 15, 2012)

*What you think is conformation is actually posture!!*

i quickly had a look at your horse for you... 

What may surprise you and others reading my post is many conformational issues like sickle hocked, long backed, croup high, over the shoulder etc. are actually not "conformational issues due to breeding at all BUT postural and can change!! 

He is just a horse that is out of muscular /skeletal balance and it gives him the appearance of being long backed due to how is standing. 

See we have only had horses that were out of balance through history to reference to - they were out of balance due to the fact they were used in wars and work and had many accidents and injuries! So due there injuries they would stand to make themselves comfortable... legs out behind, front legs underneath etc!!!

A few things to help you and your horse...If you massage his hind end or gluteals muscles this will help to break up the pattern! Also, if you push on your horse's ribs the most like feel tight- when we push on our horses ribs the should give to the contact as designed.....

Good luck and let me know if you have any questions!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Um, no^^. Conformational issues are called such because they stem from the horse's basic conformation, their skeletal structure. No amount of massage or whatever is going to make a horse's front legs grow another inch or two or their back suddenly lose a vertebrae to make it shorter, nor will it correct an upright shoulder(which is what I'm assuming you meant by "over the shoulder"). Those are skeletal structure issues and are simply _there_.


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## Ecsworkshops (Jan 15, 2012)

Dear Smrobs

I'm sorry to say what you are saying is incorrect and you have come to believe that due to what you have been taught. As, one of the leading experts in the equestrian field for rehab therapy- -for many what i am saying is hard to believe however, i have cases worldwide to prove the fact the long back can change and is not due to breeding..

and again is only how the horse has come to compensate for being out of balance which is giving it the appearance of being long backed! you may want to research the other options out there about equine conformation!


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

Ecsworkshops said:


> Dear Smrobs
> 
> I'm sorry to say what you are saying is incorrect and you have come to believe that due to what you have been taught. As, one of the leading experts in the equestrian field for rehab therapy- -for many what i am saying is hard to believe however, i have cases worldwide to prove the fact the long back can change and is not due to breeding..
> 
> and again is only how the horse has come to compensate for being out of balance which is giving it the appearance of being long backed! you may want to research the other options out there about equine conformation!


How about providing your "evidence" rather than just claiming to have it?


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## Ecsworkshops (Jan 15, 2012)

if you feel that will help you, i would be glad to!!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I would also be interested in seeing such "evidence" that a long back on a horse can be fixed by massaging his butt.


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## redape49 (Jul 29, 2011)

Totally agree with smrobs here.


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## Ecsworkshops (Jan 15, 2012)

This photo is a before treatment photo!! The horse overloads on the front legs, has a high shoulder angle and flat in the hind end!


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## Ecsworkshops (Jan 15, 2012)

this is after treatment!! the shoulder angle has changed, the softness in the horses face, the angle of the horses head and the hind end!!


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## Ecsworkshops (Jan 15, 2012)

let me know if you have any questions! or if you would like a few other before and after photos!


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I would find those photos to have more credibility if someone took the time to square up the horse to make an obvious comparison.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I would like to see more proof because, frankly, I don't see the difference there.

Though I would like to know, how long was the span of time between the before and after pictures?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hmm. I actually think the horse looked more attractive in the "before" photo. He has more of a hunter's bump/ uphill build in the second photo. 

But I know photos are deceiving because I can take 10 photos of one of my horse, a minute a part, and depending on how he is standing and the angle I am at he will look great, butt high, not so great, etc. So really, photos don't always show the horse as it really is. 

I'm not knocking you, because I know 0% about you. Just saying, he doesn't look much different in the 2nd photo, and I think he probably looks better in the first.

He kind of looks like a gaited horse actually. A vast majority of them have hindquarters like that. I assume it has something to do with form following function. 

If you don't mind me asking, what breed is he?


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

What, exactly, is the improvement we are supposed to see??


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

I will agree that there are some characterstics that can be incorrectly attributed to conformation that develop due to poor riding, bad posture, incorrect training or lack of conditioning. Take sickle hocks for example, they are almost never caused by a structural defect, but rather develop over time as a horse tries to avoid pain. 

Having said that, I really don't grasp how you can shorten a back with massage/conditioning program. Developing muscle may give the appearance that it is shorter, but does it actually physically shorten???


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## Kattia (Jan 12, 2011)

Oops no post meant here. My phone for some reason replied.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Not saying I know anything, but how did that horse go from being uphill in the "before" pic to being downhill in the "after" pic? If you're going to provide CREDIBLE before and after photos, make sure the horse is squared up and on level ground for BOTH pics. Otherwise it kinda makes you look half-a$$. Just saying...


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I guess we'll not be getting more photos then?


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

arev you treferring to my OP? my horse is standing on level ground, there is a top bar of fence railing just above his back in some of them, and I am 5 foot tall so unable tto avoid the rail showing most of the time.And yes, he is heavily Hancock bred, and so he has definite drafty features, ie long fetlocks, and heavy bone.


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## themacpack (Jul 16, 2009)

jbolt said:


> arev you treferring to my OP? my horse is standing on level ground, there is a top bar of fence railing just above his back in some of them, and I am 5 foot tall so unable tto avoid the rail showing most of the time.And yes, he is heavily Hancock bred, and so he has definite drafty features, ie long fetlocks, and heavy bone.


jbolt - I'm sorry, it seems that your thread has become somewhat hijacked - the question as to the uphill/downhilll is in regards to the photos posted by the person responding about conformation vs. therapy


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

No, Jbolt, you're pictures are fine. Sorry we got a bit sidetracked by what I suspect is a troll .

Though I wouldn't complain if you _wanted_ to post some more pics of your sturdy little Hancock boy :wink:.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

will do tomorrow afternoon, maybe a video of ride #5, out of a training halter, into the snaffle.......


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Woot! That's always a good day!

Well, not _always_, but I think you know what I meant :wink::lol:.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Lets get this back on track - As to the OPs horse, I do think the back is a bit long and the hind end weak. There is a bit of lack of overall balance there that could cause issues if you want to compete in the higher levels of dressage. However, for the lower levels and maybe even intermediate I think a good conditioning program would go a long way in helping compensate for these issues. 

There is nothing horrible here for a general purpose using horse that could provide years of good riding.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

Oh my. I'll comment to the OP first, as it is her thread and it's only fair. He looks moderately long backed to me. I may have missed how old he is? He could very well have difficulty getting under himself, if he's still quite young he may fill out in the shoulder/wither area to even the playing field a little. He's fairly sickle hocked, which is certainly better than post legged with a longer back. Biggest thing is to go slow with him, don't push him beyond his abilities, and be careful not to overload his back.

Ecs, while you seem confident in what you've learned so far, I would strongly recommend building a more detailed base of knowledge in equine anatomy and specifically how it applies to conformation. Photos as a rule can give a skewed view of conformation, and that is all that your before and after sequence portrays - the exact same horse, two different poses, two different spots with different slopes in terrain relative to the horse's position, and possibly a more relaxed horse if this was indeed after a massage session.

There is absolutely no change in his skeletal structure or otherwise. The lighting is different and the untrained eye could be convinced that there is a change in the shoulder angle, and the change in position of the front legs can further skew this, but do not be fooled. The shoulder angle is exactly the same. You cannot change the shape/length of the shoulder blade or humerus unless you break them or take them out and sculpt them by hand - excuse the morbidity. Hind end is identical, from the hunter's bump right through to the straight stifle, long gaskin, poor hock and weak pasterns.

Angle of the horse's head is irrelevent, as we all know horses are capable of moving their heads and necks, so I am not sure what you're trying to convey there. Shape of the neck and where it is set on the shoulders has not changed.


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## Ecsworkshops (Jan 15, 2012)

Thank you all for your thoughts...This is very simple... My post was to the woman who asked for feedback.... Jbolt as she was concerned for her horse and wanted hel as it come up on a twitter post...

Funny enough what I have stated as stirred many of you up!! Great!! This not an argument- it was posted to educate!

simply put, Conformation has to do with breeding - this is the bone length, the density,width, the horses color, ear, eye and nostril set, cranial shape and structure, the mane, forelock and tail!.. Ie a shire vs a thoroughbred vs a Arab! This can not change!

However, what can change is the position the legs are in, which will give the top line, pelvis, head and neck many distorted positions or organizations and give the appearance of many conformational issues. 

A horse is subject to bad training techniques, riding, ill fittin tack and accidents and injuries will become out of balance and compensate in biomechanics and in how it stands or organizes in its POSTURE!

Again, for many of you this will challenge what you know and have been taught!! Great!! And yes in a photo, the different foundations a horse stands on, the light color, standing square etc will have a degree of an effect to a beginners eye in learning! 

However, it would not be worth my time or jbolts to post something on here that would misinform the equestrian who is looking to be educated!

The difference between the two photos was 8 days, it is best when assessing your horse to let the organize themselves in a chosen stance than square because it gives you false information, as for the before and after photos that were posted- a horse with a flat hind has NO power from behind and will pull from the front legs - as we see the front legs are behind the shoulder which undated more of the horses weight is on the forehand! The after photo hind end is starting to round up as the horse comes into balance - however due to muscle wastage in the hind that gives the appearance of a hunters bump!

And as requested -upon my offer I will be glad to post a few other before and after photos that may help you see the difference!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chaseranya (Jan 6, 2012)

See now I think they look like two totally differnt horses. Wow. The first pic, the horse look in pain. Ears and facial, all together. Second one he is no longer camped under. Shoulder is not near as steep.


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

The deceptive nature of photography. proper riding and things like massage/chiro/conditioning can change the muscle development _slightly_ (ie reducing muscle build up on the underside of an ewe neck etc), but bone structure does not change. Location of the joints do not change. Sorry Ecs, but this is misinformation and that is what has "stirred" us up. I wouldn't want a novice to come on here and get the idea that a massage technique is going to make glaring faults disappear. Your statement about the "flat hind end" versus rounder is meaningless in the example provided. - the first picture has the horse's right hind extended way back, this is going to make the hind end appear flat compared to the second photo.


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## Scoutrider (Jun 4, 2009)

Certainly posture can change, and it never hurts any horse to learn how to carry himself better. Conformational flaws contribute to posture issues - a bum-high horse is going to have a hard time not traveling on his forehand, and a long-backed horse is going to have a harder time tracking up and a ewe-necked horse is going to have a harder time properly connecting and using his neck and back. Properly fitting tack and sympathetic riding can go a long way to compensating for these flaws, but it's harder for the horse and takes more time than starting with a structurally correct animal. To take an example, a horse with a truly long back is going to have a harder time tracking up than a short-coupled animal - in many cases the horse can be conditioned to stretch and engage, but the effort that it will take is always going to be more than for a well-conformed animal. More time to build the muscle, and more stress on structurally weak anatomy. 

Some well-conformed horses have poor posture, resulting from years of ill-fitting tack or poor riding, or even poor condition, that can look visually like conformational faults. I've seen that before as well - the horse is put into work with proper nutrition and exercise, perhaps some chiro work, etc., to help correct ingrained inverted posture, and the horse begins to adopt a more natural and correct posture for his conformation as he is allowed to do so. 

I'll concede that posture means a lot, and that with consideration in exercise, chiro/massage work, and properly fitting tack, a horse with less than stellar conformation can do better than without such consideration. That holds for any horse of any conformational quality. However, the fundamental bone structure is not going to change, the horse will plateau in performance ability earlier, and adopting a correct posture will be harder work and more stressful for him physically than for a horse with correct confo. 

To the OP, I agree 100% with Cat's assessment above. He doesn't have all-star confo, but nothing earth-shatteringly horrible either. He looks like a great little horse, and I'm sure will be conformationally suitable for lower, perhaps intermediate levels of most anything you want to try. :wink:


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Ecsworkshops said:


> Thank you all for your thoughts...This is very simple... My post was to the woman who asked for feedback.... Jbolt as she was concerned for her horse and wanted hel as it come up on a twitter post...
> 
> Funny enough what I have stated as stirred many of you up!! Great!! This not an argument- it was posted to educate!
> 
> ...



So.. can you help sort my horse's pigeon toes at is effects the entire leg.. and if leg position can be changed...

Also, we're not talking about "top line, pelvis, head and neck many distorted positions" we're talking about a long back, which would be bone :shock:

Or am I missing something?


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

jbolt said:


> Hi, Ive posted my horse before and was told he had a long back and a weak hip. how hard is it going to be for him to track up, or get under himself? he flexes well, and is starting to carry himself at the vertical...............


I see a long backed horse, but not as along as some I've seen. His topline is pretty much the same length as his underline, lack of a deep heartgirth. He also has a longer loin connection; he's rectangular shaped. Not ideal but you can get him to use his body up to a point.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Ecsworkshops said:


> i quickly had a look at your horse for you...
> 
> What may surprise you and others reading my post is many conformational issues like sickle hocked, long backed, croup high, over the shoulder etc. are actually not "conformational issues due to breeding at all BUT postural and can change!!
> 
> ...


Sorry, do not agree with you. Skeletal structure is static... YOU CAN not change it. There is no changing a sickle hocked horse; it's the angle of the bones and the joint attachment. You CAN NOT change that. Horses are born with the conformation they will have for the rest of their lives.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Ecsworkshops said:


> this is after treatment!! the shoulder angle has changed, the softness in the horses face, the angle of the horses head and the hind end!!


I see no difference whatsoever. Also, these are not correct pictures to begin with, the photographer is standing in different positions in both shots, and the horse is not set up square.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

thank you all for all your input, I am by no means a novice, but as a free horse, I didnt exactly have much room to be picky. It was a choice between a decently bred QH and some hoighty toity bred OTTB's (which I LOVED but knew better), so I took a gamble on Mr. Toby. I want very much to learn dressage, and am hoping to take him to the intermediate levels. Just offering a view as to why I am asking for critiques and such. Again thank you all so much for your insight, and i will be posting more pics and vid later this evening.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

True, his conformation isn't perfect, but I actually quite like him. He just has the appearance of a tough little working horse, and like others have said, I see no reason why he can't get to intermediate levels in whatever discipline you choose.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I don't believe in massage making horse shorter. :wink: However I do believe it looses up the muscles so the horse becomes more relaxed, comfortable, and looks better/more leveled as a result of it. I've seen a good chiro changing the horse's look quite a bit.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Ecsworkshops said:


> Thank you all for your thoughts...This is very simple... My post was to the woman who asked for feedback.... Jbolt as she was concerned for her horse and wanted hel as it come up on a twitter post...
> 
> Funny enough what I have stated as stirred many of you up!! Great!! This not an argument- it was posted to educate!
> 
> ...


So what you're really saying is a horse that is conditioned,building his muscle,treating soreness,proper nutrition& made to travel correctly etc can change a horses appearance.:?: :shock:Well that's of no surprise!yes any horse is going to look better & his "posture" or the overall appearance/look of his conformation is going to improve ,because as a whole the horse will look better.Makes the faults not jump out at you as easily as on a unconditioned horse,It is not however going to change the underlying structures & conformation faults:-(


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

To the OP Would agree your horse is Moderately long in back & weaker muscled hind quarter.That said he has many positive points,nice neck & shoulder,good bone & feet.Looks to be more of a Western style mount,that should be suitable for a number of riding events.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

How 'bout that difference?


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## Gremmy (Feb 17, 2009)

That must have been one heck of a massage!


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

GotaDunQH said:


> There is no changing a sickle hocked horse; it's the angle of the bones and the joint attachment. You CAN NOT change that. .


This isn't necessarily true in all cases. Think about a horse's hooves. Take a horse that has a rotated coffin bone, for instance. Once that bone rotates, the way it articulates with the bone above it is going to be affected. The horse will adjust it's posture and leg position to accomodate the strain on the tendons due to the rotation. This can make a horse "look" sickle-hocked when it actually is not. Think of the horse that stands as if it is on a pedestal. They may be structurally correct, but poor management can create problems in the feet that ultimately affect the whole leg.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

^ Tru dat.
Deb Bennett, the World's Self-Accredited Famous and Foremost Conformation Guru, claims that a true sickle-hocked horse is *extremely* rare, and that all others are just compensating for either pain or other conformation defects.


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## sponies5 (Jan 20, 2012)

I think the original photo of the horse does not have a "long back". He has a tight back and flat in his lumbar region. There should be a roundness at the rump that should start at the anticlinal vertebra (about mid-back) if the horse is ridden correctly. If the horse is not ridden correctly, they will be tight in their loins giving the appearance of a long back. There is a huge difference between conformation and posture. Dr. Deb who was mentioned above, and ECS workshops both lecture to educate horse owners the difference between what is real conformation and what is posture imbalance such as "over at the knee", "long backed", "croup high", etc. Body work can greatly change a horse's posture which will change the so-called conformational flaws. The grey that ECSWorkshops posted does have nice changes in the after photo. Just look at the width distance from loin to groin in the after photo compared to the before, and the rib cage fullness. And he is standing more balanced. When assessing a horse you want to take a photo of how the horse naturally stops and organizes himself so you can determine the habitual posture tendencies. If you square them up perfectly, you can still see posture imbalances if you are trained to see it, but I prefer a natural stance. If I knew how to post pictures on this forum I would show examples


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> ^ Tru dat.
> Deb Bennett, the World's Self-Accredited Famous and Foremost Conformation Guru, claims that a true sickle-hocked horse is *extremely* rare, and that all others are just compensating for either pain or other conformation defects.


Not quite sure I agree with that.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

Sahara said:


> This isn't necessarily true in all cases. Think about a horse's hooves. Take a horse that has a rotated coffin bone, for instance. Once that bone rotates, the way it articulates with the bone above it is going to be affected. The horse will adjust it's posture and leg position to accomodate the strain on the tendons due to the rotation. This can make a horse "look" sickle-hocked when it actually is not. *Think of the horse that stands as if it is on a pedestal.* They may be structurally correct, but poor management can create problems in the feet that ultimately affect the whole leg.


Sure any horse can look sickle hocked if they stand with their hocks ahead of the point of buttock (as opposed to the hocks out behind the point of buttock), but the bone structure/angle of the actual hock won't change.


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## jbolt (Jan 1, 2012)

are you refferring to my horse being flat backed? or the other horses posted as examples?


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

> but the bone structure/angle of the actual hock won't change.


Sure it will. The angle of the hock changes every time the horse takes a step.










And therein lies the problem of the "sickle hocked" diagnosis, as isolated to a hock issue. As Dr. Bennett says, if you're looking at cadaver legs, you'd never be able to tell the difference between a sickle-hocked and a normal-hocked horse. The bone structure of the joint is the same; it all comes down to stance. Now of course, many horse are predisposed to stand in a completely sickled manner due to other conformational problems, but that's not really a hock issue, per se.


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## lilkitty90 (Nov 11, 2009)

holy bum high batman bubba! those are totally 3 different horses. and that 2nd one needs to be checked out.. he's awfully bumm high 

still a gorgeous boy nonetheless lol


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Jbolt, I wouldn't worry about that poster, it is fairly common for someone who is in an argument or a debate to either make a new identity for themselves or have one of their "friends" from elsewhere come in and help them out in a thread. One of the biggest clues is that the new poster will usually join, make 1 or 2 posts in a particular thread, all in complete support of the original person involved in the debate, then disappear.

Yes, there are some things that are postural and that body work can correct, but there are other things (like long backs and being downhill/croup high) that just _are_ and cannot be corrected.

I have a colt that is about 19-20 months old. When he is grown, he will likely have a long back. He is most certainly cow hocked and sickle hocked, he is mule-footed on the back end, and he has an upright shoulder. None of this is due to improper riding/training, as ECSworkshops claimed in an earlier post, as he has never been ridden. Really has not had any "training" to speak of beyond general manners, no roundpenning, no lunging, nothing. He has been this way since the day he was born so it is not an "aquired" posture. He just _is_. ECSworkshops is more than welcome to come to my house and massage his butt until the cows come home, but it won't change what he is.


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## GotaDunQH (Feb 13, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Sure it will. The angle of the hock changes every time the horse takes a step.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And this is what I was saying. I'm not talking about stance, I'm talking about actual skeletal structure. And I think there is a misunderstanding of what I mean by hock angle. I'm referring to how the hock is set on the leg. Once again from a skeletal standpoint.


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