# Hurting Horses?



## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

absolutely we can hurt them!

...and put that lady on some medicine for goofiness!


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

kickshaw said:


> absolutely we can hurt them!
> 
> ...and put that lady on some medicine for goofiness!


and make sure it's a strong medication!!! ****


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## Jubilee Rose (May 28, 2008)

Haha. I thought it was kind of ridiculous of her to say so.


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Wow...that lady must be outta her mind, LOL!  Why is there horse abuse? Duhhhhh!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I'd say it depends a lot on what she meant by "hurting". For example some people smack horse when horse try to bite. Is is gonna hurt the horse - no. But it'll be unpleasant and bossy and will teach horse. I've seen people turning back on horse and kicking at them to show who's the boss. Will it hurt the horse if you do it with sport shoe on - I don't think so (of course I'm not talking about kicking horse, say, in private parts or something, or doing it really hard). On the other side there is such thing as cruelty, when horse CAN be really hurt intentionally (say beat up with the whip and so on). 

I knew the guy who said same thing as your barn owner. But he meant that if you smack the horse as panishment it's not gonna hurt it. He didn't mean cruelty at all (very gentle with animals guy, btw).


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

> I'd say it depends a lot on what she meant by "hurting". For example some people smack horse when horse try to bite. Is is gonna hurt the horse - no. But it'll be unpleasant and bossy and will teach horse. I've seen people turning back on horse and kicking at them to show who's the boss. Will it hurt the horse if you do it with sport shoe on - I don't think so (of course I'm not talking about kicking horse, say, in private parts or something, or doing it really hard). On the other side there is such thing as cruelty, when horse CAN be really hurt intentionally (say beat up with the whip and so on).


I'd have to disagree with you. A small "reminder" smack probably will not effect them, but I would Never Ever Ever condone or tolerate someone KICKING their horse. It doesn't matter where...their legs are very delicate for them being so big...abdominal kicks are just asking for trouble... :wink:


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

PoptartShop said:


> Wow...that lady must be outta her mind, LOL!  Why is there horse abuse? Duhhhhh!


lol!!!!!!!!!  :lol:   couldn't have said it any better myself! :wink:


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

I agree with kitten_Val. My friend has kicked two horses at the barn I ride at. One of them is a huge Belgian cross who thinks he is a pony. Kicking him does not hurt him. He needs to be kicked sometimes. The other is a huge Mustang. He has been kicked in his gut (not hard at all, just a little kick). He is fine too. Kicking your horse is okay, they just have to be big enough to handle it. I would never kick a Thoroughbred or a Saddlebred because they are too delicate. The heavy horses though, need a stronger reminder than a TB.


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## buckaroo2010 (Nov 7, 2007)

Of Course we can hurt horses!!!!!! That lady must of had a blonde moment oor something!

LOL pop that was funny! :lol:


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

Sounds like she was making a broad statement. I've often said similar things to people new to horses who are being too wishy-washy or tip-toeing around them. Of course if you seek out the weak points (eyes, ears, belly, etc.) you can hurt them, even with your bare hands.


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## Jubilee Rose (May 28, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> I'd say it depends a lot on what she meant by "hurting". For example some people smack horse when horse try to bite. Is is gonna hurt the horse - no. But it'll be unpleasant and bossy and will teach horse. I've seen people turning back on horse and kicking at them to show who's the boss. Will it hurt the horse if you do it with sport shoe on - I don't think so (of course I'm not talking about kicking horse, say, in private parts or something, or doing it really hard). On the other side there is such thing as cruelty, when horse CAN be really hurt intentionally (say beat up with the whip and so on).
> 
> I knew the guy who said same thing as your barn owner. But he meant that if you smack the horse as panishment it's not gonna hurt it. He didn't mean cruelty at all (very gentle with animals guy, btw).


Yes, this is what she meant, I think.


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## phantom (May 12, 2008)

Sara said:


> Sounds like she was making a broad statement. I've often said similar things to people new to horses who are being too wishy-washy or tip-toeing around them. Of course if you seek out the weak points (eyes, ears, belly, etc.) you can hurt them, even with your bare hands.


Yeah, I have to tell new riders that they can't hurt their horse all the time, like the ones who are afraid to tighten the girth, or kick their horse if he won't trot, or whatever. I wonder if she was making a point like this, cause it's ridiculous that she would actually think humans can't physically hurt a horse.


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## americancowgurl31391 (Jul 9, 2007)

i totally disagree with u amightytarzan...its not ok to kick a horse. You wouldn't like it if they turned around and kicked you?! You have to consider their feelings too. Yes my horse does act up and yes i do give him a smack when needed but i would never kick my horse especially not in the stomach. I think you need to reconsider this. Just cause your friend does it doesnt mean its ok. Sry to be so forward but this is why theres abuse and people wonder "oh why is that horse afraid of people". Probably because he associates people with hurting him. And size doesnt matter...basically your saying that its ok if people that are tall get hurt but people who are short shouldnt?!


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

> agree with kitten_Val. My friend has kicked two horses at the barn I ride at. One of them is a huge Belgian cross who thinks he is a pony. Kicking him does not hurt him. He needs to be kicked sometimes. The other is a huge Mustang. He has been kicked in his gut (not hard at all, just a little kick). He is fine too. Kicking your horse is okay, they just have to be big enough to handle it. I would never kick a Thoroughbred or a Saddlebred because they are too delicate. The heavy horses though, need a stronger reminder than a tb.


Then we will have to agree to disagree


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

In response to americancowgurl31391:

It's not a height thing, it's a weight and muscle thing. You don't have to agree with me. I do consider my horse's feelings. My horse is very well treated. He is not abused, no matter what you may say, and he loves my very much. He trusts me like I've never seen a horse trust a person. No, I wouldn't like it if my horse turned around and kicked me, but I also can't put 300 pounds or more of force behind my kick. My kick has about 20 pounds behind it, if not less. When you smack a horse, it hurts him. Kicking is just the same. They get kicked all the time in the pasture and around their horsey friends. Just because you don't do it, doesn't mean it's wrong.

Another thing. Don't you ever say that I abuse my horse. Ever. This is what pee'd me off. My friends and I love our horses very much and our horses would do anything for us. I would never hurt my horse to the point where he'd need vet care. You don't know what you are talking about. You don't know me, and you don't know what my situation is. I'll post pictures of the horses that I said have been "kicked". I have a lot of pictures along with my comments. So get ready...









He's actually bigger than this now. This was a while back.









Same day.









Poor "abused" pony!









He's the one on the right.









He's huge.









Of course he's abused! Geeze!













































Nevada would like to tell you how he feels about your comment ^^^

edited - by jazzyrider for bad language


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

i don't think anyone accused you of abusing your horses. 

you may *think* you have only 20lbs of force behind your kick, but you may actually have more 

that said, there are many people out there who could really, really damage nerves/tendons in a horses leg if they *kicked* their horse. (AKA grown man having a macho match with a horse)

Personally, I do enough groundwork with my boys that I would never feel the need to "one up them" if they were snotty...they understand not to do those things. Additionally, I don't think that "getting even" by kicking one would benefit my guys much. As I said, we can agree to disagree - that's the beauty of the forum 

your horses are beautiful, and definitely don't look abused


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

*americancowgurl31391 said:*


> but this is why theres abuse


Yeah, she did basically accuse me of abusing my horses.

*kickshaw said:*


> that said, there are many people out there who could really, really damage nerves/tendons in a horses leg if they *kicked* their horse. (AKA grown man having a macho match with a horse)
> 
> Personally, I do enough groundwork with my boys that I would never feel the need to "one up them" if they were snotty...they understand not to do those things. Additionally, I don't think that "getting even" by kicking one would benefit my guys much.


I am not a grown man, so I can't really hurt my horse unless I put a whole ton of power behind my kick. I'm positive my kick does have 20lbs of power behind it because I don't kick the horse hard. Geeze. I mean, I don't slam my foot in his gut. I just kinda kick to where it doesn't even hurt me. If I kicked hard enough to hurt the horse, it would hurt me too. 

I like you kicksahw, and I am not fully disagreeing with you. I don't agree with a full grown man "taking on" a horse. I don't agree to slamming a boot into a horse's stomach. But, I'm positive I won't hurt these horses by kicking them gently in the stomach or the chest.

Thanks for the compliments. They aren't mine, but I live them like mine!


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## americancowgurl31391 (Jul 9, 2007)

Where the heck did i say that you abused your horses? Nowhere...so dont put words in my mouth!! Your not my mother so dont tell me what i can and cannot do. I guess my horse just has more respect for me than yours. I would NEVER feel the need to kick my horse. I just totally disagree with kicking a horse in the chest or stomach. Run them, work them, teach them its not right, but dont kick them. Its not right!! By saying thats where abuse comes from i met worldwide. Your horse is gorgeous and i do not suspect that you abuse him. So make sure you read posts correctly. You went off on JDI for having no fun with her horses, yet your the one that kicks yours?!


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Guys please...just agree to disagree.  I don't want a fight to start in here.
We're kinda drifting off-topic a bit- nobody in here abuses their horses I'm sure, we all love them. 

But we also all discipline them in different ways. Nobody is right or wrong.  I'm also not pointing @ anyone in particular.


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## appylover31803 (Sep 18, 2007)

Let's not forget the Conscientious Etiquette Policy either.


The Horse Forum was created so that people can discuss horses in a friendly, fun, helpful environment. While the Horse Forum is open to the public, we reserve the right to restrict access to those who undermine our efforts to preserve the character of the community.

Please exercise what we call conscientious etiquette when you post. This means that you keep the objective of preserving the forum's friendly, fun, helpful environment in the forefront of your mind as you write your message.

If your post is nasty, condescending, rude, etc., regardless of how subtle, and whether shrouded in the form of opinion or otherwise, it is subject to be removed and your access to the Horse Forum may be restricted.

This applies to the Critique forum as well. People come here because they are passionate about their horses. Naturally, a biting critique about an animal a person is passionate about can be very hurtful. While a request for critique implicitly invites criticism, the sensitive nature of such topics is all the more reason to post conscientiously, keeping the other person's feelings in mind.

Our interest in preserving the nature of the community trumps our interest in allowing everyone to share their opinion here. If you can't share your opinion in such a way so as to preserve the friendly, fun, helpful nature of the community, don't.

Please exercise conscientious etiquette when you post. Please use the alert button to notify the Horse Forum Staff when you read something by somebody who clearly hasn't.

If you have any questions, please contact a moderator or Administrator

And please don't accuse anyone of abusing their horses. We are all part of this forum for one huge reason, our love for horses. And we all know there are numerous ways to discipline a horse. One way that works for you will not work with everyone.

Let's just be nice and continue on with the conversation from the OP


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

I'm sending her a PM so that y'all won't have to hear about it. Sorry guys!


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

My last post:

I don't want people thinking I hurt my horses. I would never hurt my horse at all. I am not going to post anymore in this forum, but I just wanted people to know this.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

Remember that horses can feel a fly on their bodies, so what do you think a smack feels like, much less a kick? Yes, I smack my horses on the chest or butt when it's been misbehaving, and I do use a whip. However, I do not and never will kick a horse, especially not in the gut, that's, well, like me kicking you in the gut - it's a crippling pain. 
Anyways, that's my opinon.


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

Sorry, I said I wouldn't post again, but I needed to add one more thing. People and horses are two different things. Horses are bigger animals. Yes, they can feel a fly, but kicking as hard as you would smack a horse is fine. To me at least. I never kick, but my friends never kick harder than they can slap.

My last post, I swear it now!


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

amightytarzan5 said:


> Sorry, I said I wouldn't post again, but I needed to add one more thing. People and horses are two different things. Horses are bigger animals. Yes, they can feel a fly, but kicking as hard as you would smack a horse is fine. To me at least. I never kick, but my friends never kick harder than they can slap.
> 
> My last post, I swear it now!


Regardless, I don't find it nice or even humane to kick a horse in the gut.


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

Okay, two sides. My ideas aren't all bad, y'alls aren't either. I'm done here!

Omigosh! I don't know why, but I'm shaking after this! Maybe from embarrasment, or upset. I'm so not good in situations like this, even over the internet! If I was talking to y'all face to face, I'd be crying! LOL!


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I'll make this short......

Yes, you can hurt a horse, and not just physically. You can damage a horse mentally and emotionally and that is just as sad as physically.

I also do not agree with kicking a horse. I just think it's unneccesary in any situation......whether it's meant to correct a horse or to get him to go faster while being ridden. While being ridden, it just makes a horse dull.

The End


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## geewillikers (May 4, 2008)

Whoa. Just read this thread.


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## Jubilee Rose (May 28, 2008)

Oh my goodness .... little did I know how much controversy this would cause by making this post. Mods feel free to delete this if need be.


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

It always seems that the posts I voice my opinions in get closed. :lol:


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## Bitless (Jan 11, 2008)

One thing to remember is that a horse is so sensative it can feel a fly on it, so imagine what i kick or wack would feel like. Being bigger doesnt always mean stronger. 

And using a violent act such as a kick or wacking and using the excuse that another horse would do more damage so its not as bad to justify the action i think is a niave ( arg spelling) thought. 
Because you are not a horse so dont compare your actions to there actions to justify a situation, another horse would give out warnings before they would go for a more 'attack' approach as they them selves wouldnt want to risk hurting them self unless very nessicary. 

and yes i think even just one wack or kick is concidered a violent action, as soon as you use force like that even just once is a violent action, not neccicarily abuse just a type of action, such as a pat being subtle and friendly action.

Im not acuseing any one person, just my opinion.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

americancowgurl31391 said:


> its not ok to kick a horse.


I wasn't saying it's OK or not OK.  I was just saying people do it. I personally wouldn't be able to do it and I don't think it's right way of dealing with problems. But I've seen people "kick" in shoulder with the knee (well, kick is not quite right word here, it was rather gentle like a push). Horse wasn't hurt (or scared) in any ways, but still understood she did something unacceptable. I probably should of use other word than "kick" in my original message, just couldn't find the right one.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Looks like discussion went way too harsh and offensive. We are all entitled to our own opinions and there is no need to be aggressive. 

Personally, I do smack my horses with hand in chest or shoulder if they get too pushy. But I don't consider that as an abuse. And I know for sure there is no hurt to them - either physical or emotional.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

Bitless said:


> One thing to remember is that a horse is so sensative it can feel a fly on it, so imagine what i kick or wack would feel like. Being bigger doesnt always mean stronger.
> 
> And using a violent act such as a kick or wacking and using the excuse that another horse would do more damage so its not as bad to justify the action i think is a niave ( arg spelling) thought.
> Because you are not a horse so dont compare your actions to there actions to justify a situation, another horse would give out warnings before they would go for a more 'attack' approach as they them selves wouldnt want to risk hurting them self unless very nessicary.
> ...


I totally agree!!! Of course people can hurt horses!! Just because they are alot bigger and stronger than us, doesn't mean they don't feel pain!! Kicking a horse in my opinion is unacceptable. You could easily put your foot through a horses stomach! I once heard of a filly who was tied up in a yard and some idiot left a broom by her on the floor, she trod on the broom head and the handle flicked up and punctured her belly, she later died! If a broom can do that, imagine what a foot can do!!

Spirithorse, you also have a very good point!!

Again, this isn't a pop at anyone, just my honest opinion!!


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## Dumas'_Grrrl (Apr 2, 2008)

I'm not going to try to add fuel to the fire here ......but.... Horses are incredibly strong and resilliant animals.   I wish I had footage of the bull riding we went to over the holiday weekend.  The horses that were being used to get the bulls back into the chute were PHENOMENAL! They were fearless and strong.  The bulls did in fact, charge the horses, and while the riders...Expert cowboys IMO, they were fabulous....did their best to keep the horses clear of the bull, it did not happen every time.  The horse was charged and hit in the gut by a po'ed bull.  Ya know what... The horse was fine!  It proceeded to finish off the nite working its heart out and being hit by about 3 or 4 bulls.  The horse in question was in fact a real working horse.  I happen to know the guy ( think no nonscence hard core cowboy) and he checked his horse over and it was fine. This is a picture of my geldings "playing"








Dumas is on the left, twister to the right.

The picture I missed was the one where they were both reared up.
Dumas had a cut on his forhead from being kicked in the head...Dumas was trying to bite Twister and Twister answered him...hard.I would never condone physically hitting my horse until it bled but I think that a knee to the gut or a good smack won't "hurt" the horse. There is a difference between feeling it and actually hurting them. We as horse keepers would never dole out as severe a disipline as another horse would.  So I don't think that a well placed "thump" is really gonna hurt them.  Some people smack their horses to tell them "good boy" harder than they disipline them.... Its really just a matter of what will work for you and your horse.  I don't believe that anyone here is wanting to cause harm.


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

You said what I wanted to say Duma, but I couldn't find the words.



> Kicking a horse in my opinion is unacceptable. You could easily put your foot through a horses stomach! I once heard of a filly who was tied up in a yard and some idiot left a broom by her on the floor, she trod on the broom head and the handle flicked up and punctured her belly, she later died! If a broom can do that, imagine what a foot can do!!


She was a filly; she probably wasn't fully developed. I would never kick a horse, much less a filly. But I don't find it unacceptable. I'm going to defend my friends.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

This post was originally a question as to whether or not people can hurt horses... We all agreed that the answer is yes, both physically and mentally... 

That being said... We walk a fine line as far as discipline go's.. You see, it's like our children, we have our own beliefs as to what proper punishment is for OUR children. Now on occasion people go over the top and it becomes abuse, and sometime what one person thinks is extreme, others, think is ok....

What I'm trying to say is... when someone is discipling their horse, it may be more extreme then what I would do, but if it's not truly abuse, then I turn my head and cringe because... It's not my horse and if they think snatching the chain is the right answer, then that's what they think, it's not my right to rip the lead rope out of the persons hand....Now if they were beating the crap out of the horse then yeah, I'd step in....

In Tarzans defense... I'm curious, does anyone really believe she kicks her horse with full force in such a way that she's going to physically injure him? I think she was making a point and someone took off and ran with it... just my two sense.... (I have a lot of two cents... maybe that's why I'm so low on funds.... two cents adds up to dollars... :wink: )


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## Sara (Jul 6, 2007)

Heh, well said, farmpony


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Well said, farmpony.


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## my2geldings (Feb 18, 2008)

Jubilee Rose said:


> I was talking to my barn manager and she thinks that humans can't really hurt horses. She thinks that horses are so big and powerful that we can't really hurt them by coming onto them physically. She also brought up how horses take a lot of bangs, scrapes, kicks, bites, etc from other horses. By the way, she takes good care of her horses, so don't worry about that. But I tend to disagree. Yes horses are big and strong, but I think we can hurt them. What do you guys think??


To put it blunty, and nothing personal towards you, I think you're trainer is ridiculous. Animal or horse abuse doesn't just mean "if you don't hurt it, then it's ok". Raising your voice is plenty enough to mentally injure a lot of horses. A smack given at the wrong time for no good reason is enough to mentally injure an animal.

If your trainer were right, we wouldn't have to deal with abused and mishandled horses.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I had a nice long response typed up for this thread and deleted it. Suffice to say that all living things with nerve endings can be hurt. The level of pain may be less for some creatures than for others. Fras can kick Shiloh and she will be ok. Shiloh can kick me and I will have a bruise the size of florida and can hardly walk for a week. 
Does any of that make sense? :?


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## PoptartShop (Jul 25, 2010)

Well said, Vida!!


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

Thank you farmpony84 for standing up for me. I appreciate it!


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## jazzyrider (Sep 16, 2007)

well said farmpony.

different people have different views on the levels of pain we can inflict on a horse. for example; jarred has been in an awful mood lately (its been raining for 2 weeks and he gets cranky in the rain) and has reverted back a little to randomly kicking at you just because he feels like it. jarred is a huge horse and i cant afford to have one of his kicks connect with me. so ive learnt to watch and know when we is going to kick and before he gets a chance i smack him hard on the butt. its stops him from what hes doing and the only effect it seems to have is shock value rather than pain. even if my smack did sting him a little it would be no different to the smacked bum i used to get from mum as a kid except that i dont think it would hurt them even half as much.

on the other side of the coin there are situations where people get a little too carried away with discipline. i try to liken it to how i would discipline my dogs or my children if i had any. i smacked bum is one thing but booting them in the stomach is a completely different kettle of fish. so yes, my dogs get a smacked bum when they do something naughty and on occasion so will my horses if they need it. i wouldnt smack my dogs on the face or punch them in the shoulder so i wont with my horses either. 

what im trying to say in my long winded way is yes, sometimes a smack may hurt them a little but no more than the wooden spoon mum broke on my butt once :shock: as with humans and other animals abuse only comes into play when repeated and unecessarily tough physical discpline comes into play.

kickshaw - please dont leave the forum because of all this. you are entitled to your opinion without fear of people taking things you say out of context and running you down for it. unfortunately it happens too much that people think they have to change someones mind rather than expressing their opinion and leaving it at that. try and ignore these types of comments and dont take them too personally. as long as you are not over physically disciplining your horse then take these peoples words with a pinch of salt. im not referring to their comments all the time just these ones


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## Jubilee Rose (May 28, 2008)

My2Geldings said:


> Jubilee Rose said:
> 
> 
> > I was talking to my barn manager and she thinks that humans can't really hurt horses. She thinks that horses are so big and powerful that we can't really hurt them by coming onto them physically. She also brought up how horses take a lot of bangs, scrapes, kicks, bites, etc from other horses. By the way, she takes good care of her horses, so don't worry about that. But I tend to disagree. Yes horses are big and strong, but I think we can hurt them. What do you guys think??
> ...


She isn't my trainer, just the barn manager. And I think she meant in terms of discipline such as giving a horse a good swat when they deserve it. She does not abuse her horses or condone abuse.


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## Bitless (Jan 11, 2008)

> And I think she meant in terms of discipline such as giving a horse a good swat when they deserve it.


not picking on you or your barn manager but ...just about the statment as i have heard many people use it before.
The one reason i think actually hitting or kicking or whatever as a way of disapline is incorrect is because of this statment. A horse doesnt deserve it, ever, every action it does is a reaction to what the human has done or to somthing in its immediate surroundings. 
Purely done from what it has or hasnt been taught at present. for example: If a horse is pushy it doesnt deserve a kick in the gut to make it get out of your space, it would have been taught to be that way so it shouldnt be punished for someone elses mistake. And while a horse may kick at purhaps a pushy horse to get it out of its space , it doesnt give us the right to do the same. As like i said before there would be many other warning signs us humas would miss before hand. 

But im not saying im all high and mighty , as yes i have hit a horse before, but that was in the past , i have now changed and learnt new ways to deal with problems that arise. As hitting doesnt solve the problem to do that you have to find out what caused it and prevent it from happening again, not try and ' quick fix ' it afterwards.

And another thing to concider, horses and many other animals dont show pain the same way humans do. A horse is a prey animal if it shows to much if any pain it is sure to fall prey to predators....as its instincts tell it.

heh woops i got a bit off topic tho, wasnt about disipline...was about being able to hurt them but i just wanted to say that :roll: .

this is a very intreaging topic tho i must say, and some good points brought up too.


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

amightytarzan5 said:


> You said what I wanted to say Duma, but I couldn't find the words.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doesn't matter whether she was a filly, mare, gelding or stallion, it is still unacceptable to kick a horse imo! But then again, I never use any form a physical punishment to disicpline my horse, and she respects me. Like Spirithorse, said, you can hurt a horse mentally, they are such sensitive creatures.


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## Micki O (Apr 22, 2008)

I believe yes you can hurt a horse physically and mentally.
Disciplining a horse isn't any different than disciplining children. If the discipline is done out of anger or frustration, you can hurt the horse whether you smack it, kick it, with hold food & water or anything else. When that line is crossed and the punishment is not a "controlled" action, it then becomes painful and becomes abuse.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I don't want to get in trouble but since I'm always in trouble anyway...

My first horse, Pistol, was an abuse case so I never ever hit him, or smacked him... or disciplined him... I didn't want to "hurt" him. he's 24 now and I still love him like crazy, but now that I have 5 other horses and see what a little bit of discipline can do, I know that I did not do him any favors. He doesnt stand, he walks all over me, he has no respect for people, he'll run you over (he will not kick or bite) he's not mean or aggressive, he is just bigger and he knows it. 

My other horse came to me trained and they are patient and kind and quiet and they know how to behave. Somebody spent alot of time on the ground with them, disciplining and training. My baby, is much much better behaved then Pistol, but I still opted to send him to a trainer because I'm not "mean" enough... That is what many people tell me, I love on them and I hug on them and I need help with the discipline part because I'm a wuss. I hate to snatch the leadshank or smack the chest, but I've been learning how to do it, and it doesnt hurt them mentally or physically when done properly. I geuss I'm just trying to say that I understand everyones feelings but also, for those that are a little more inexperienced or new horse owners, know that you do need to discipline in some ways. YOU NEED IT. Just like with children, they need rules and they need to know there are consequences to actions....


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## Spirithorse (Jun 21, 2007)

I completely agree with Bitless! Well said!


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## kickshaw (May 7, 2008)

> I geuss I'm just trying to say that I understand everyones feelings but also, for those that are a little more inexperienced or new horse owners, know that you do need to discipline in some ways. YOU NEED IT. Just like with children, they need rules and they need to know there are consequences to actions....


agreed. but that line of discipline vs. "too rough" (especially for inexperienced or new horse owners) is superfine!


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

I also completely agree with Bitless!!


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## amightytarzan5 (Mar 20, 2008)

I agree kickshaw and farmpony 84. Well said to both.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

farmpony84 said:


> My other horse came to me trained and they are patient and kind and quiet and they know how to behave. Somebody spent alot of time on the ground with them, disciplining and training. My baby, is much much better behaved then Pistol, but I still opted to send him to a trainer because I'm not "mean" enough... That is what many people tell me, I love on them and I hug on them and I need help with the discipline part because I'm a wuss. I hate to snatch the leadshank or smack the chest, but I've been learning how to do it, and it doesnt hurt them mentally or physically when done properly. I geuss I'm just trying to say that I understand everyones feelings but also, for those that are a little more inexperienced or new horse owners, know that you do need to discipline in some ways. YOU NEED IT. Just like with children, they need rules and they need to know there are consequences to actions....


Can't agree more with it. I got my first horse and was all just love about her: "oh, she's so sensitive, she'll hate me if I smack her..." and so on. In one year I ended up with the beast who tried to strike at me when she wanted something and I tried to stop her from that (like grazing), and bunch of other disrespect towards people in general and me in particular.That's where the discipline came in place (just had NO other choice, or I should send her to trainer who can be as mean as they need to be).


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## purple duck (Jun 5, 2008)

Depends how you mean, if you mean animal cruelty hitting them with objects etc then yes. But if a slight slap for biting you or something then no.

I know a very big horseman who probably knows more about horses and had more experience than all of us on here put together and discipline and punishment needs to be put in place to gain respect from your horse or it will walk all over you.


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## purple duck (Jun 5, 2008)

kitten_Val said:


> I'd say it depends a lot on what she meant by "hurting". For example some people smack horse when horse try to bite. Is is gonna hurt the horse - no. But it'll be unpleasant and bossy and will teach horse. I've seen people turning back on horse and kicking at them to show who's the boss. Will it hurt the horse if you do it with sport shoe on - I don't think so (of course I'm not talking about kicking horse, say, in private parts or something, or doing it really hard). On the other side there is such thing as cruelty, when horse CAN be really hurt intentionally (say beat up with the whip and so on).
> 
> I knew the guy who said same thing as your barn owner. But he meant that if you smack the horse as panishment it's not gonna hurt it. He didn't mean cruelty at all (very gentle with animals guy, btw).




I agree with you, horses need discipline and sometimes a slight swipe for biting etc to gain respect for you if not they will walk all over you!


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## purple duck (Jun 5, 2008)

Bitless said:


> > And I think she meant in terms of discipline such as giving a horse a good swat when they deserve it.
> 
> 
> not picking on you or your barn manager but ...just about the statment as i have heard many people use it before.
> ...


 I don't think that a smack with the whip on the *** for being naughty could do a horse much harm!!


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

purple duck said:


> kitten_Val said:
> 
> 
> > I'd say it depends a lot on what she meant by "hurting". For example some people smack horse when horse try to bite. Is is gonna hurt the horse - no. But it'll be unpleasant and bossy and will teach horse. I've seen people turning back on horse and kicking at them to show who's the boss. Will it hurt the horse if you do it with sport shoe on - I don't think so (of course I'm not talking about kicking horse, say, in private parts or something, or doing it really hard). On the other side there is such thing as cruelty, when horse CAN be really hurt intentionally (say beat up with the whip and so on).
> ...


If I can just butt in, smacking a horse isn't getting their respect. Respect is earned not demanded and ok a horse might behave after you give it a swipe, but that doesn't mean they respect you. I am a firm believer in violence is never the answer. If you think about it, horses don't actually punish each other, they keep each other in line, yes but they don't tell each other off, so horses don't actually understand punishment. They learn from asscociating things and they respond better to reward and positive reinforcement. My mare used to be really bloshy and bargy when I first got her and I will admit I use to smack her, but then I stopped and realised it wasn't working, so instead if she barged me, I *made* her back up, so she asscociated barging with hard work and since then he hasn't done it. I use Monty Robert's techiques and they are fantastic. You have to make it easy for the horse to do right and hard for them to do wrong.

Ok i'll get off my soapbox :wink:


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## purple duck (Jun 5, 2008)

LuLu said:


> purple duck said:
> 
> 
> > kitten_Val said:
> ...


 I see what your saying but it works for me so I would rather listen to my more experienced 60 year old friend who has been riding since the age of 3 and has more horses than Appleby!! who knows more about horses than me and you!!

I don't smack my horse for being bolshy I speak firmly and push him back but if the little sod bites me, he will get a swipe!!


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## purple duck (Jun 5, 2008)

Jubilee Rose said:


> My2Geldings said:
> 
> 
> > Jubilee Rose said:
> ...


 You have started something here!!!!!!


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## LuLu (Sep 11, 2007)

purple duck said:


> LuLu said:
> 
> 
> > purple duck said:
> ...


Well, whatever works for you and your horse, I just hate seeing horse being smacked.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

I think there needs to be a definition made between smack, tap, bump and BAM TO THE MOON :lol: 
I have tapped, bumped and occasionally a smack. Never a BAM 
Its the BAM's that I think everyone is controversial about. 
You have to do a tap, thats the basis for even natural horsemanship. Use your carrot stick and tap progressively harder till a correct response in achieved. Right?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Vidaloco said:


> I think there needs to be a definition made between smack, tap, bump and BAM TO THE MOON :lol:
> I have tapped, bumped and occasionally a smack. Never a BAM
> Its the BAM's that I think everyone is controversial about.
> You have to do a tap, thats the basis for even natural horsemanship. Use your carrot stick and tap progressively harder till a correct response in achieved. Right?


THANKYOU! It kind of upsets me that everyone starts screaming abuse when we discuss things... I agree abuse is an issue that should be covered but....I'm curious how common it really is??? We should probably start another topic huh???


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## purple duck (Jun 5, 2008)

farmpony84 said:


> Vidaloco said:
> 
> 
> > I think there needs to be a definition made between smack, tap, bump and BAM TO THE MOON :lol:
> ...


Yes start another topic!! The tap, smack , BAM thing should of been discussed earlier I feel!!! I have never done a BAM!!

Have any of you heard about the black and white cobs being stolen in England? Just a word of mouth so far, I haven't heard any hard evidence!!!!


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## Jubilee Rose (May 28, 2008)

Oh boy.

I regret making this post. I didn't mean to cause so much trouble.


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## TrialRider (Jun 6, 2008)

Jubilee Rose

For me your post has been very educational. I'm hoping with the riding lessons I take that I'll be taught how to get the behavior I want from my horse and how to correct it with out anger. 


For example if you watch Cesar Milan (The Dog Whisperer) he will some times take his hand with his fingers spread and grasp the dog. It does not hurt the dog but stimulates a bite. The dog understands that language and Cesar is not doing it out of personal frustration or anger but to teach the dog.

I've been using his techniques with my own dogs learning to read their body language and using my body as a tool to train them. I'm really hoping with Natural Horsemanship that it will look the same way. I don't want to hurt or scare my horse when I get one. I want a relationship based on trust.

I think this is a very philosophical debate about discipline and I can see everyone side. And I get the feeling that in this thread everyone is crazy in love with their horse.


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## Vidaloco (Sep 14, 2007)

Jubilee Rose said:


> Oh boy.
> 
> I regret making this post. I didn't mean to cause so much trouble.


 No regrets Jubilee, I know you are fairly new to the forum Let me assure you this sort of "debate" goes on all the time. I too think its a helpful thing to have different opinion. Someone new to horses can read it an see that there is more than one way to deal with a horse.


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## Jubilee Rose (May 28, 2008)

Vidaloco said:


> Jubilee Rose said:
> 
> 
> > Oh boy.
> ...


Ok. Thanks Vida.


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