# I have two color questions.



## mysticdragon72 (Nov 1, 2010)

We are going to be buying this mare (almost 100% sure at this point) and she isn't registered but she was listed on her ad as a Buckskin Tobiano. Well, I kind of agree with that. She's definitely a Tobiano BUT she's got some other characteristics that lead me to believe there's something else like Sabino or Splash in her too. Am I right?

First, I'll post a pic of her left side to give you the total view of her:










Next I'm posting her front left leg to show the way her stocking is kind of mottled instead of a distinctive line between the color and the white marking:









She's also got some white hairs mingled in with the color on her face, legs and body. 

The second part of my question about color genetics is if she is bred to the stallion pictured below what colors would the babies possibly be? I don't know if either one are ****/heterozygous for any genes as I haven't asked the lady if they've been tested or not.










So, all you genetics experts out there... can y'all help me out a little?

TIA.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

I don't know enough about identifying the white patterns to have a go at her.

In terms of what they could produce, I will assume they are both hetero for everything that they can be. Of course, they are both definitely hetero for cream, and the stally is **** for red. Other than that, you can't tell so we assume everything else is hetero.

You can get: Chestnut, Bay, Black, Cremello, Perlino, Smokey Cream, Palomino, Bucksin, Smokey Black. You then have I think a 50/50 chance of white patterning.


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## mysticdragon72 (Nov 1, 2010)

That's like me, I have no idea about the specifics of the white patterns either.. I can tell the difference between overo and tobiano... usually unless there's something else mixed in that are throwing off the white. Like with these two.. I would say they are both tobiano BUT the stallion has too much white on his face to not have something else there too.. maybe splash? I dunno... same with the mare.. she's not only tobiano but, like you I dunno enough about the white patterning. ;-)

I'll be happy with whatever color the baby is.. I think it'll be cool to try to figure it out though.. hehe.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Is she already bred or are you planning on breeding her?


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

I'm going to have to be devils advocate here and ask: what do you see in those horses that make them breeding quality?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

That was going to be my next question, and to also suggest that one or both should be tested for frame.


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## mysticdragon72 (Nov 1, 2010)

OK, I knew these questions would be asked at one point or another... I guess I should have stated that I don't own either one of these horses right now. I didn't breed the mare and yes, she's already in foal. The current owner bred them for whatever reason she had at the time.

On another note, and I'm not saying this to be b*tchy, but please refrain from commenting about their conformational faults/strengths or anything other than your opinion on the color possibilities of the foal because that was my reason for posting. 

As I stated, I DON'T OWN them and therefore have no control over their care or whatever. Please don't take this post the wrong way but I've seen quite a few people on here get berrated unnecessarily for things which are beyond their control and totally outside of the original purpose of the post.

I wasn't buying the mare for breeding or showing but just to be a riding companion for my husband and myself.


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## cassalynn (Dec 23, 2010)

I always wonder about the color genetics as well.. But I am absolutely horrible at the white markings. lol. 
However, I did want to tell you I think she is an adorable mare, and whatever her color is considered, I really like it!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Zeke said:


> I'm going to have to be devils advocate here and ask: what do you see in those horses that make them breeding quality?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Just out of curiosity, how can you tell they are *not* breeding quality? It's hard to judge a horse on a single photo on the internet. I'm sure we've all had photos of our horses that make them look both better and worse than they really are. These are hardly halter shots.

Especially the photo of the stallion. Bad camera angle, but boy, he looks like a hunk to me! I love tanky horses. But even not considering that, what do you see wrong with him? I certainly can't see anything glaring. Maybe if he were standing square with the camera at a better angle, we could all assess more, but still, I don't know how you can fault him at this angle.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

See, that's fine. I don't think anyone would have asked any questions if you had stated that in the first place. To me it sounded as though you were buying the mare and hoping to have a foal out of her by the stud. You did ask "if she was bred to the stallion"...Breeding unregistered horses is a very touchy subject around here, its only because we love horses and want people to be responsible.

She's got great coloring, it's tough to guess what she'll throw though. Good luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cassalynn (Dec 23, 2010)

I have to agree with trailhorserider, you can't REALLY fully assess a horses conformation without seeing them in person, pictures can't really tell EVERYTHING. I'm sure the baby will be well loved no matter what.. I know none of my horses have perfect conformation, and a couple of them had parents with great conformation.. Just depends.


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> Just out of curiosity, how can you tell they are *not* breeding quality? It's hard to judge a horse on a single photo on the internet. I'm sure we've all had photos of our horses that make them look both better and worse than they really are. These are hardly halter shots.
> 
> Especially the photo of the stallion. Bad camera angle, but boy, he looks like a hunk to me! I love tanky horses. But even not considering that, what do you see wrong with him? I certainly can't see anything glaring. Maybe if he were standing square with the camera at a better angle, we could all assess more, but still, I don't know how you can fault him at this angle.


I didn't say I saw anything glaringly wrong with either horse, I only asked what she saw in the pair that made them good for breeding. Does the simple fact there isnt something "glaringly wrong" mean a horse should be bred? I don't think so. I asked the question more to see if color wasn't her main reason for breeding. 

As it turns out she didn't breed the mare herself, and had no choice in stud. That's fine. I still wish people didn't breed because they have an intact stud hanging around but at least this foal will have a home, no matter what color it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## equiniphile (Aug 16, 2009)

Hmm, I'm no color expert, but she is gorgeous!


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## cassalynn (Dec 23, 2010)

Zeke said:


> I still wish people didn't breed because they have an intact stud hanging around but at least this foal will have a home, no matter what color it is.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


K.. I completely agree with this, there are a lot of "studs" out there that should have been gelded as soon as possible... lol


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

I'm really not out to start a fight, just always interested in hearing why people chose to breed horses rather then buy a young horse instead. I said nothing bad about, nor did I pick at either horses possible faults.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## cassalynn (Dec 23, 2010)

Oh I completely understand zeke.. I would have never thought you were trying to start a fight. Thats the one thing people ALWAYS have problems with, haha.. Interpretting the feelings behind text. 
I have felt bad for a few people on here that got attacked by people for asking a question, but I didn't really get that vibe from you, and you even said you were playing devils advocate.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

And that is also why I didn't ask why she thought they were breeding quality. I was more interested in if it was a future breeding or not. Seeing as the mare is already breed, any discussion on it is a moot point.

I also was just curious as to what she thought made these two breeding quality, if she was going to be the one breeding them.


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## mysticdragon72 (Nov 1, 2010)

Hey Zeke... gotta say something to you.. I've read A LOT of your other posts and you seem to be really smart when it comes to horses.. I respect your opinion and I didn't think you were trying to start an argument either.. I just wanted to let y'all know that they aint mine so I had no control over how they're cared for or why she bred them.. to be honest I would've never had bred her to ANY stud without some sort of knowledge of her breeding as, like you said in one of your posts, there are WAAAY too many young horses out there that need GOOD homes to be breeding willy nilly the way a lot of people do "just cuz".. I knew what you were getting at but I have no clue why she bred her at all..

I was mostly interested in the color possibilities of the foal and what other possible white patterning the parents have to give them non-tobi traits.

Thanks to those of you that commented on the mare.. I think she's pretty too and yes, I did get drawn to her because of her color BUT I'm pretty sure she's going to be great for my hubby and I to ride around for the fun of it. 

As far as the foal goes.. the little one will have a home with us regardless of color, shape, sex or whatever.. it could be purple with pink pokadots and we'd love it!! LOL


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## Zeke (Jun 27, 2010)

Thanks mystic, that means a lot. She really is a pretty girl, buckskin paints are a love of mine, if she had blue eyes I might have to steal her!

Good luck with the foal, I'm sure no matter what it'll be a cutie!! Wish I knew a thing about color genetics so I could guess what it's gonna look like!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mysticdragon72 (Nov 1, 2010)

I have a couple other photos of the pally stally hehehehe.. had to put that in there like that ;-) The owner said that he was FAT and DIRTY so forgive those.. he's usually not like that... He's registered with three diff. reg. One being TWHBEA and the other two I don't remember. His registered name is Delights Color Me Gold.. barn name Cody. The mare's name is Sahara and, as y'all know, she's not registered but according to the owner, she can be registered as a SSH. Dunno how that works.. and I don't think I'm gonna worry about it either LOL. I do have a couple other pics of her too... If y'all want me to I can post them as well.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Sure! I always love seeing more pictures.


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## mysticdragon72 (Nov 1, 2010)

Went to that color calculator website that someone posted on these forums to figure out what the foal might be based strictly on both parents being Tobi's... not taking into consideration any other white patterning at all and this is what it gave me:

*Offspring Color Probability* 

21.88% - *Buckskin Tobiano *
12.50% - *Palomino Tobiano *
10.94% - *Bay Tobiano *
10.94% - *Perlino Tobiano *
7.29% - *Buckskin *
6.25% - *Cremello Tobiano *
6.25% - *Chestnut Tobiano *
4.17% - *Palomino *
3.65% - *Perlino *
3.65% - *Bay *
3.13% - *Smoky Black Tobiano *
2.08% - *Chestnut *
2.08% - *Cremello *
1.56% - *Smoky Cream Tobiano *
1.56% - *Black Tobiano *
1.04% - *Smoky Black *
0.52% - *Black *
0.52% - *Smoky Cream*


Now THAT'S quite the selection eh??? LOL.. I'd still really like to know what other possible white patterns they might have besides tobiano anyways.. I'm almost postive they both have something else besides tobi. :-?

Anywho.. here's the other pics of Sahara and Cody.. now remember, they aren't the greatest pics but there all I got sent from the lady who owns them.


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## cassalynn (Dec 23, 2010)

I still think she's adorable!!  Funny thing is when I used the color calculator a while back I got a huge list of possibilities as well. lol. You could get just about anything


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## mysticdragon72 (Nov 1, 2010)

Thanks  The more I look at her the more I like her... I've got quite a bit to look forward to over the next little while... first we're going to look at this mare and take her for a "test drive" .. then, if everything works out and we all like each other we'll be bringing her home... then my other two babies should be delivered by the end of the month! They're the one's in my avatar... then we got the foal to look forward to in August!... quite the year LOL.


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

I know I commented about disliking her at first, but I've realized she's very cute after you posted those last few pictures. I personally hope the baby looks just like mom; she has very nice color. I like my saddle horses flashy.  Oh, HF, forgive me for admitting I like my horses pretty! 

Also, you commented about registering her as an SSH: if she gaits and has spots, she can be registered. However, I wouldn't bother with it unless you plan on showing her or re-selling her.


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## mysticdragon72 (Nov 1, 2010)

I remember you making that comment on my other post.. I'm glad the photos I posted changed your mind though  Although that wasn't a problem to me because you're entitled to not like a horse for whatever reason ;-) I know there's some horses out there that people say are "pretty" but I don't see it.. to each his or her own I guess eh? LOL.. anyways... enough of my mindless babbling hehe.. thanks for commenting and I also hope the baby looks like her too!

ETA: I don't think I'm going to bother registering her as I'm not planning on showing her or the baby as I'm not into showing... nor am I planning on ever breeding her again so she can just be my "unknown" baby LOL


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## Brighteyes (Mar 8, 2009)

Making a lot of plans, eh? You seem to have your mind made up you're buying her. Fallen in love? 

Tell us about the test ride and how everything goes. Maybe take a video? I want to see how well she gaits.


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## hlygrl (Jan 3, 2011)

Hi guys I am new to this site and by the looks of the mare she looks to have the Sabino gene.. With her jagged socks and you say she has white hairs in odd places .. That is just my two cents lol but I do know that they are both VERY nice and I would take either one  I hope you get her and enjoy that baby


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## Gizmo (Dec 19, 2010)

Zeke said:


> Breeding unregistered horses is a very touchy subject around here, its only because we love horses and want people to be responsible.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I kinda know what you mean by breeding whatever the heck people want and stuff, but what is so wrong with an unregistered horse. My horses is full blood QH and he isn't registered. Its just something that the owner never did I guess. 
Anyways. I think they are both lovely horses and she is going to throw and adorable baby. You will have to keep us updated.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Gizmo said:


> I kinda know what you mean by breeding whatever the heck people want and stuff, but what is so wrong with an unregistered horse. My horses is full blood QH and he isn't registered. Its just something that the owner never did I guess.
> Anyways. I think they are both lovely horses and she is going to throw and adorable baby. You will have to keep us updated.


There is nothing wrong with an unregistered horse. I don't think that anyone that has a problem with people breeding actually has a problem with unregistered horses. 

A registered horse is traceable. If you buy a grade, you have to rely on the word of the seller to give you any clue as to the horse's history. They could tell you that the horse is pure but not registered, that the horse's dam won the Triple Crown, whatever they want. Most people are honest, but there are people who are not. Having papers means that even the less than honest people can't lie too badly about the horse.

A papered horse is a far more attractive buy for a lot of people. Not saying all people, for sure there are lots of people who prefer grades. I myself have only owned papered horses, but that is because all I have owned are OTTB's which have to be registered. A horse with papers will usually sell for more than a grade that has similar qualities.


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## mysticdragon72 (Nov 1, 2010)

Brighteyes said:


> Making a lot of plans, eh? You seem to have your mind made up you're buying her. Fallen in love?
> 
> Tell us about the test ride and how everything goes. Maybe take a video? I want to see how well she gaits.


LOL.. well yah... of course I've fallen for her. She's got a pretty face.

I'm planning on getting a video of the owner riding her before I ride, that way I can see how she moves with someone who's experienced with gaited horses compared to someone like me who usually rides non-gaited horses.

On a totally different track though I've been thinking ahead about names for the baby... not going to come up with a definite name before I meet him or her though but just throwing a few names around. What name would you give the foal? The sire's name is "Delights Color Me Gold" and the dam's name is "Sahara"... although hubby and I have been talking about possibly registering the mare so I'd have to come up with a name for her too.. ;-)

Can y'all tell I'm excited?? Let's hope I haven't got my hopes up over nothing like normal.


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