# How to Stop Leaning Forward?



## NavigatorsMom (Jan 9, 2012)

I'm a bit hesitant to post about this, as last time I posted on a forum asking for advice on teaching a young rider, I was chastised about having to ask anything and was told I should not be a teacher. Hoping for a somewhat more supportive response here...

I am currently co-teaching a 12 year old rider. She has only been riding for a few months with my mentor as her teacher, I just started teaching her (have only done 3 lessons so far). She loves the horses, seems to be having a good time, but we are struggling with getting her to sit up, most noticeably on downward transitions/halts. We have to constantly remind her to sit up when she asks for a halt, as the first thing she does is grab reins and lean forward. I have been having her do halts on the lunge without reins at all and she still tends to lean forward even with nothing to grab.

She seems to have decent balance, we trot around on the lunge with no hands, arms out, no stirrups, etc., and she doesn't lose her seat. This habit is likely residual result of an accident she had with a pony a while back. I believe the leaning started out as a defensive fear response but now that she's more comfortable, it's still a habit and it isn't breaking. My mentor and I are hesitant to move forward with her until we get this habit fixed up. There isn't much she can do if she is constantly leaning forward and depending on the reins to halt. 

Any suggestions on exercises that we could use to help her remember to sit up? It might just be a matter of repetition... we have a lesson tomorrow morning and am hoping for something new to try. I don't normally post outside of my journal, but I know there are many good riders here and I am hoping for a few responses at least.


----------



## mmshiro (May 3, 2017)

Have you tried trotting on the lunge line with her grasping her elbows behind her back? It makes it more difficult to roll down your shoulders and go into that defensive fetal position. Once she realizes that nothing dangerous happens when she doesn't lean forward, she might be less inclined to do it. From what you told us, she does seem to understand what she's supposed to do, but she needs to deprogram a reflex.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I've seen you ride, and you are perfect to be a teacher.


----------



## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

It doesn't matter how long someone's been teaching you will always come across that one student that you struggle with and asking others for advice is the right way to go. 
We never stop learning.
I'm not sure if it would help but when a rider has a habit of looking down or letting one shoulder droop down (my own bad habit) I find that raising one arm upwards towards the sky (or ceiling if you're in an indoor) is really useful.


----------



## NavigatorsMom (Jan 9, 2012)

Thank you all for your responses! 
@mmshiro - I love that idea and will definitely try it tomorrow! We have done some things like that but an action that will actively have her shoulders rolled back/down sounds really good.
@jaydee - thank you, I agree that just because one has been teaching/riding for many years there is always something that can come up that could afford other insight! No one knows everything. We have done one arm up at a time, but maybe both up? Will probably try that tomorrow as well!
@tinyliny - thank you for such a kind comment! I know that being a good rider doesn't automatically make a good teacher, but I am a teacher at heart! It is what I do and I feel like I am good at it, but teaching riding is newer/less familiar to me than music, and there's so much that could potentially go wrong, I would rather get some other opinions than just try to keep doing the same thing and not getting results.

I've been reading through my old D-level pony club book, Centered Riding and Riding Logic, trying to find ideas and it has been useful. Habits are just so hard to break, especially when she isn't riding every day, so I know this will take some time. 

One other thing that my mentor and I have been trying to do is come up with a mantra for her to say/think every time she halts. The sequence - sit tall, breath out, close thighs, tighten abs/half halt, use voice, close hands - is long and really it's all supposed to happen at once, so we haven't been able to come up with something short and sweet. Something like "eyes up, heels down, leg on" would be ideal. Obviously this isn't directly related to leaning forward, but the hope is that if she remembers the sequence more easily, she will not lean forward since it's not a part of it.


----------



## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

It could be helpful to have her initiate her downward transitions by closing her her knees/upper thighs and pushing and holding her seatbones down and under her *before* she applies rein. It's hard to tip forward when you're using your seat that way, and she probably won't feel she needs much leaning/rein pulling by the time she does that, as that should be enough to initiate the slow-down.

I had trouble with pulling and leaning too, when I started back after my fifteen years off! These days I think about any downwards transitions starting with a slight closing of knees and traveling up through closing my thighs into an applied and stilled seat. Followed up with an outside rein squeeze as necessary -- as the last aid, not the one that initiates. It's a faster chain of events than it sounds like it would be, but it sets everything up nicely and prevents tipping/leaning.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

maybe if you get her to think of the body cues ( close her leg, tighten her abs, firm her arms, think 'down' into the saddle) 
as the way she stops the BACK LEGS of the hrose, and the rein as the way she stops the FRONT legs of teh horse, it will get her to think of it in a two step process, and get her to FIRST focus on those back legs. that might help her get mentally 'over' those legs with her body, and once she's there, all she has to do is close her hands on the reins to stop the FRONT legs.

I was helped very much in canter transitions when my then trainer asked me to imagine that I was riding ONLY the rear pair of legs, as if the hrose only had two legs, like an ostriche. So, I had to keep in mine that it was those REAR legs that I was going to scoop up, and lift forward into a leaping canter transition. it helped me to not lean forward when thinking 'transition up". 

maybe having her think of controling those back legs first, with her body, will keep her up and over them more.

Just a thought.


----------



## Rainaisabelle (Jan 2, 2015)

You could try getting her to get up in two point and find her point of balance and then when she goes to sit back get her to tuck her tailbone underneath it makes her have to sit up straight as the point of her spine is underneath her


----------



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

What sort of accident did she have? Is there a particular style of riding you are teaching? And is she leaning forward DURING the slowing, or in anticipation of slowing?

I'm asking because lots of visiting inexperienced riders who go out with us often lean back before slowing, but never FORWARD.

It could be something along the lines of the saddle being too large or slick for the student, or slightly downhill, so the student tries to resist the forward slide.

It could also be a case of where the student's body needs to learn that leaning forward doesn't help. It might need an exaggerated effort - leaning back 30 degrees before each downward transition - to convince her subconscious that she doesn't need to lean forward first.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Going by my own lesson experience, it is exactly at transitions that it is the hardest to go through a long list of positional checks. Try just ONE. It may take some experimenting to find out which one works best. It could be to fix her eyes on a point ahead of her. It could be "shoulders like a queen". Or, tucking her tail bone. 

One of the ideas that helps me (I'm proud to say that I lean back AND forward), is to think of my spine as a vertical pole, and I am riding a merry-go-round horse. Seems kind of stupid but it works for me.


----------



## Luce73 (Dec 7, 2012)

What helped me was my trainer telling me 'LEAN BACK' a lot (I was so far forward that sitting up felt like leaning wayyyy back lol). Of course then a few months later I started cantering more regularly and we realized that I was leaning too far back in the canter... Fixed that and now i have a pretty good position (as far as leaning forward/back goes, still have plenty to improve in other parts of my body lol). 

It took a lot of time not to revert to that fetal position when I got scared/nervous though. My current horse really helped with that because in a fetal position you have NO control and he knows it LOL. In order to slow him down when jumping I had to learn to sit deep and tall and use my seat, not my reins, for slowing. Maybe having her do lots of transitions on a lunge with no reins would help her feel how to ride from her seat too? 

If she's curling into a kind of fetal position putting a cropbehind her back with her elbows folded around it (on the lunge) might help too, as mentioned above 

I really like the idea of 'tuck your tailbone' mentioned in this thread!


----------



## NavigatorsMom (Jan 9, 2012)

Wow, great suggestions everyone, I will try to address all of you!  I wish I had gotten to read these before the lesson this morning, but at least I can put this to use next time. 
@SteadyOn - I love the idea of starting the sequence from the legs up, and ending with reins. That kind of gives it a flow, instead of trying to think of all the steps in a random order. I have been really strict with her about reins being last though, since she was really grabbing his mouth the first time I saw her ride. That has already improved quite a bit thankfully!
@tinyliny - that is an interesting concept! It makes so much sense though, and really would get a rider thinking back to front I think. I will try bringing that up with her next time, though we will have to see if she understands it. I think maybe telling her "sit over the back legs" would at the very least get her sitting back.
@Rainaisabelle - she has told me she knows two point but we haven't done it because we're no where near jumping, and I guess I've been trying to completely stop her from going forward at all. But, getting her balanced like that and then having her tuck her tailbone and maintain that balance seems like a good strategy to try.
@bsms - We're just doing basic English, probably with a bit of a dressage focus as that's what I do. I am not totally sure of the accident, I just know it involved the pony she was riding trotting off on her, and when she started to lean forward and scream (uncontrollably, apparently) he cantered off, which eventually resulted in her falling off. Saddle fit seems good on the horse and with her, so I don't think that's it. I think you're right about that last part, she just needs to learn that leaning forward is not effective and trick her subconscious into not using leaning as a part of the transition. Maybe having her add lean back (as opposed to just sit tall) to her sequence. 
@Avna - we did try doing just one step at a time - just close the legs, then just close the legs and say whoa, etc. - but I like the imagery of being the pole of a merry go round horse. Visuals like that seem to work with her somewhat so I will definitely try that one.
@Luce73 - she's definitely starting the fetal position thing, or at least that's where the habit originated. I don't think she's really scared anymore. Crop behind the elbows might be good for her. Definitely would help her keep her shoulders back.


The lesson today went alright. Jack had apparently given some trouble to an inexperienced rider last night so I decided to stay on the safe side and keep them on the lunge today. Which was fine because then we were able to do a lot of no stirrup and no rein exercises. I did have her put her arms behind her back and hold her elbows and that did get her sitting up nicely. At the walk and trot I had her do no stirrups no reins, raising her arm above her head, hands on hips, etc. When I told her to set up for halt she would close her legs, say whoa and apparently tighten her abs/ half halt but that was hard to see from where I was so I don't think she was doing it as much as possible. In spite of not holding the reins she still tended to lean forward a bit. We also had a bit of issue keeping Jack trotting and staying out on the circle instead of walking and coming in to me so situation was not ideal. He probably needs to be schooled on the lunge a bit.

Before riding I had her practice tucking her seat and "bracing the back" (Riding Logic) against the barn. The idea was that standing against the side of the barn relaxed, there is a gap between the barn wall and the lower back. I told her to try and get her back to touch the barn wall, which got her to tuck her seat somewhat. I should have told her that this is something to practice at home as well, but forgot to mention it. 

I don't have another lesson with her until probably a week and a half/two weeks, but I will definitely be trying some of your suggestions next time. More than anything I think it is an ingrained habit.


----------



## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

yes! "Sit over the back legs!" is a great idea! simple, clean and strong.

I used always find that my elbows would drift out, and I'd tip forward. my teacher would say something like, " keep your elbows next to your rib cage so that your hand won't roll over!". I eventually told her to just yell, "Elbows!!!" at me when she saw me slipping into that old bad habit, since I knew perfectly well WHY I should keep my elbows in. it was easier on both of us.

I am sure you will do well . I'd take you as teacher to me or my child any day of the week!


----------



## Kaiit (Mar 28, 2017)

tinyliny said:


> I used always find that my elbows would drift out, and I'd tip forward. my teacher would say something like, " keep your elbows next to your rib cage so that your hand won't roll over!". I eventually told her to just yell, "Elbows!!!" at me when she saw me slipping into that old bad habit, since I knew perfectly well WHY I should keep my elbows in. it was easier on both of us


Haha, this is me all over at the moment. My terrible hands cause me to tip forward. I guess I'm focusing too much on giving him rein and my arms drift out. The owner was joking about putting a belt round my elbows to keep my arms in because that's what her instructor had her do. So I found a loose belt and tied my arms in, worked like a treat! Not tight enough to prevent me from reaching out to break a fall but the rubbing on my skin is a constant reminder, like someone shouting, "ELBOWS!"


----------



## LizzieHorseRider (Mar 28, 2017)

Try telling her that her hips, heels, and head should all be lined up. Try shortening her stirrups abfew holes to give her a good base. If you notice her leaning ask her if she is too far forward or too far back, and when she answers correctly tell her to fix it. This will teach them if they are, to fix it themselves and not to wait for somwone else to tell them. She might not notice she's even doing it.


----------



## NavigatorsMom (Jan 9, 2012)

@LizzieHorseRider I like the idea of making her accountable and aware of herself by asking her how she thinks she's sitting, thanks! 

As a bit of an update, I had one more lesson with her about a week and a half ago. It went alright though she's still leaning. As I've said before, it's a habit. The lesson was mostly a review of everything we've touched on so far since she had been gone for a couple of weeks. We were also using my horse rather than the lesson horse so there was a bit of new experience going on.  I don't know when I'll see her again, but do plan to keep these suggestions in mind! I should print them out and keep them handy.


----------



## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> maybe if you get her to think of the body cues ( close her leg, tighten her abs, firm her arms, think 'down' into the saddle)
> as the way she stops the BACK LEGS of the hrose, and the rein as the way she stops the FRONT legs of teh horse, it will get her to think of it in a two step process, and get her to FIRST focus on those back legs. that might help her get mentally 'over' those legs with her body, and once she's there, all she has to do is close her hands on the reins to stop the FRONT legs.
> 
> I was helped very much in canter transitions when my then trainer asked me to imagine that I was riding ONLY the rear pair of legs, as if the hrose only had two legs, like an ostriche. So, I had to keep in mine that it was those REAR legs that I was going to scoop up, and lift forward into a leaping canter transition. it helped me to not lean forward when thinking 'transition up".
> ...


Stealing this for myself. I also lean forward especially into canter transitions. While my teacher is hollering LEAN BACK! Just so I'll be straight up . . .


----------



## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

My daughter was (occasionally still does if she panics) doing I think what you're describing Nav's Mum, after she came off badly once. Just not only/always on downward transitions. I (repeatedly through out each ride, without any big reason) got her 1. breath deep & sit up straight then 2. relax, sit deep & tuck here tail under. This would cause the horse to slow/stop, and got her doing it pretty habitually. 3. THEN I started telling her to do this whenever she got at all worried - she was already well practiced & feeling that she had control without getting grabby, so she was able to 'replace' her earlier reflex with the better one whenever she felt the need, and pref. well before it caused her significant worry.


----------

