# Clinton V.S. Pat



## twp

Is it just me, or did Clinton Anderdon rip the "Carrot stick idea from Pat Perellie?.. It looks like a carrot stick that he painted blue, lol.. Who was using that "whip" Idea first?


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## bsms

Not sure who was first, but I'd be willing to bet it wasn't anyone born after WW2...


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## twp

Whaaaaa?..They had the carrot stick around since before ww2?

That's cool.. Who come out first though, Clinton, or Pat?


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## bsms

I think Pat is older than Clinton, so he came out first.:wink:


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## nrhareiner

Neither of them. Is it a variation of a buggy whip. Nothing more or less. This idea has been around for longer then any of us have been alive.


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## twp

:rofl: Seems Legit! 

That settles it.. Clinton walked into Pat's barn one night, :happydance: stole his Carrot Stick, Spray painted it Blue, so Pat didn't recognize it, then called it something else!!

BUSTED!!


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## twp

I thought a carrot stick was made of fiberglass?


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## nrhareiner

So are every other lunge whip from a short crop to a buggy whip. That is all the Carrot stick or stick and string or what ever you wish to call them is. 

It would be like saying who invented a bit or reins? Some variation these things have been around about as long as there have been horses.


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## TexasBlaze

carrot stick is just fancy words for whip. Theyve done a few things like making it "fiberglass" or "making the string come off" so they can call it what they want. Could use a strong stick and drill a hole in the end for a string and have the same thing without paying. However if i had to choose between Pat and Clinton id choose Clinton ANY day. 

IMHO i think Pat is full of it.


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## nrhareiner

Clinton is proven as as horse trainer Pat is not.


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## bsms

Apart from the color, it sure looks like what I bought for $12 at the feed store...

Oh wait! I see it now! For an extra $30, I get a detachable string at the end! How amazing...


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## DancingArabian

Neither one of them invented it so who cares who made up a very expensive version first?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## twp

TexasBlaze said:


> carrot stick is just fancy words for whip. Theyve done a few things like making it "fiberglass" or "making the string come off" so they can call it what they want. Could use a strong stick and drill a hole in the end for a string and have the same thing without paying. However if i had to choose between Pat and Clinton id choose Clinton ANY day.
> 
> IMHO i think Pat is full of it.


Lol, I knew I liked you!.. I think he is full of..Horse Apples also.. He never uses his whip.. I watched a Clinton viddie for an aggressive horse, and he actually used the whip.. Not to promote horse abuse, but sometimes you got to let them know that what they did was dead wrong, and I think Clinton establishes that.. Plus, his accent RULES!!


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## twp

DancingArabian said:


> Neither one of them invented it so who cares who made up a very expensive version first?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I know, but someone made it Popular.. I care.. Hence this Thread.


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## twp

bsms said:


> Apart from the color, it sure looks like what I bought for $12 at the feed store...
> 
> Oh wait! I see it now! For an extra $30, I get a detachable string at the end! How amazing...


:rofl::clap: 30 dollar string!! That thing better tie itself at the end! Lol.


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## twp

nrhareiner said:


> Clinton is proven as as horse trainer Pat is not.


I thought Pat does training?.. Does he only do Ground Work?.. I watch his blooper viddies only, lol..


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## nrhareiner

twp said:


> I thought Pat does training?.. Does he only do Ground Work?.. I watch his blooper viddies only, lol..


When I say proven Clinton has taken horses he has started and finished and went out into the real world and proved amoung other horse trainers what he had done and independed judges have evaluated his work. PP has not. Well he has tried but not very well.


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## twp

nrhareiner said:


> When I say proven Clinton has taken horses he has started and finished and went out into the real world and proved amoung other horse trainers what he had done and independed judges have evaluated his work. PP has not. Well he has tried but not very well.



Ooooh! Didn't he do Extreme Mustang Makeover, or the Extreme Cowboy Race?.. Clinton?.. I do love watching those events.


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## SouthernTrails

twp said:


> Ooooh! Didn't he do Extreme Mustang Makeover, or the Extreme Cowboy Race?.. Clinton?.. I do love watching those events.


Craig Cameron did the Extreme Cowboy Race


.


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## nrhareiner

CA was a reining trainer back when he started out. He does not have a lot of earnings or any really big wins but he does have earnings enough to prove he can get the job done.


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## Northern

Clinton was a student of PNH, graduated Level 3, I've heard, before striking out on his own. So, he learned to use the cs under PNH.

From what I've read online, Pat was inspired to come up with the fiberglass stick while riding a certain horse bridleless in a public demo. I have no reason to doubt this story.

Regarding his mentors: I'm sure that neither Dorrance brother innovated the stick, nor used any kind of stick as the _usua_l modus operandi, as Pat does (in Bill's book, True Horsemanship Through Feel, there's one case where he suggests using a stick, but he says to just find one in the woods!) Leslie Desmond, Bill's protege who's carrying his torch, also doesn't use any kind of stick. Pat's other mentors, Ray Hunt & Troy Henry, I also believe didn't normally use any kind of stick. So, I've concluded from these facts that Pat is the cs innovator & those who use fiberglass sticks with removable strings are imitators. Which is fine with me, because I think the cs a really useful tool for many aspects of hms.

The difference between a whip & a cs: the cs is used in both a friendly manner (to stroke the horse, keeping handler at a safe distance if needed) & in a directing manner (contact with horse & "driving", not contacting his body).

The handler should always regard the cs as an extension of his arm, because that's really what it should be (not a whipping tool, which sends a different feel to the horse). 

Hope that helps!


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## nrhareiner

Northern said:


> Clinton was a student of PNH, graduated Level 3, I've heard, before striking out on his own. So, he learned to use the cs under PNH.
> *That is not where Clinton worked when he first came over. He studied under several top reining trainers.*
> 
> 
> From what I've read online, Pat was inspired to come up with the fiberglass stick while riding a certain horse bridleless in a public demo. I have no reason to doubt this story.
> 
> *Ya b/c he has little use of his body when it comes to cueing a horse. He uses the stick to get the horse to change direction.*
> 
> Regarding his mentors: I'm sure that neither Dorrance brother innovated the stick, nor used any kind of stick as the _usua_l modus operandi, as Pat does (in Bill's book, True Horsemanship Through Feel, there's one case where he suggests using a stick, but he says to just find one in the woods!) Leslie Desmond, Bill's protege who's carrying his torch, also doesn't use any kind of stick. Pat's other mentors, Ray Hunt & Troy Henry, I also believe didn't normally use any kind of stick. So, I've concluded from these facts that Pat is the cs innovator & those who use fiberglass sticks with removable strings are imitators. Which is fine with me, because I think the cs a really useful tool for many aspects of hms.
> 
> The difference between a whip & a cs: the cs is used in both a friendly manner (to stroke the horse, keeping handler at a safe distance if needed) & in a directing manner (contact with horse & "driving", not contacting his body).
> 
> The handler should always regard the cs as an extension of his arm, because that's really what it should be (not a whipping tool, which sends a different feel to the horse).
> 
> Hope that helps!


Again the CS is nothing more then a lunge whipl. Although I do like the fact that the stick part is stiffer then a normal lunge whip. But past that there is very little differance and it works better in some areas and not as well in others.


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## Northern

We were discussing who thunk up the cs first. I don't think the reiners whom Clinton worked under taught him the cs. , & I know that PNH did, since it's an intrinsic part of their program.


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## nrhareiner

Northern said:


> We were discussing who thunk up the cs first. I don't think the reiners whom Clinton worked under taught him the cs. , & I know that PNH did, since it's an intrinsic part of their program.


 
So just B/C CA uses a stick that is must be a CS and he must have learnd it from PP? Really? You might want to think about that for a min. As PP and CA are not the only trainers who use a stick with a sting to work horses.


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## twp

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> Craig Cameron did the Extreme Cowboy Race
> 
> 
> .


I know, he is the Host, but Didn't one of them actually race? ...Is what I was asking, lol.


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## twp

nrhareiner said:


> So just B/C CA uses a stick that is must be a CS and he must have learnd it from PP? Really? You might want to think about that for a min. As PP and CA are not the only trainers who use a stick with a sting to work horses.



It's true, but they use the Exact Stick.. Just different colors.


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## bsms

A painting from 1888:










Probably not made of fiberglass.

The trainer who taught my horses prefers a lasso. I'm too clumsy with a lasso, so I bought a lunge whip. You can also push or rub with a rolled up lasso.


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## nrhareiner

Take a look at Stacy Westfall stick and string. She has been using that for years. I know she has never worked with either. I know she knows them but she was never a student of either. They all use them. No one person invented it. It is a progression of what works.


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## twp

Yes, my cousin did a Saddleless, bridleless thing with No thing but 2 plastic sticks.. Kinda like thecarrot stick.. or a blind person's walking stick.. But years before Parelli, lol.. I forgot what that is called..


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## SouthernTrails

twp said:


> I know, he is the Host, but Didn't one of them actually race? ...Is what I was asking, lol.





> The Extreme Cowboy Race*™* was originated by the first “Original Extreme Cowboy”, Craig Cameron.




Extreme Cowboy Association


.


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## twp

bsms said:


> A painting from 1888:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not made of fiberglass.
> 
> The trainer who taught my horses prefers a lasso. I'm too clumsy with a lasso, so I bought a lunge whip. You can also push or rub with a rolled up lasso.


..It's ORANGE!! lol. We have a shortened/broken Lunge whip, I use it to mostly beat my bf with.  lol.. oh, It works good with the horses too, lol..Not to beat them.. Let me clear that up, before someone that thinks I'm a Rick Gore Minion, starts makes up another one, lol. To lunge them with.


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## Pegasus1

I've tried using a lunge whip, to "whippy". The advantage of the carrot stick is that it is stiff. It allows the use of steady pressure on the horse which is not possible with a flexible stick.
I have also found by testing on my wife (just kidding, my hand actually  ) that used with the same force a flexible whip causes much more pain than I can achieve with a carrot stick. I assume that CAs stick has similar characteristics as he probably got the idea when he was training under the Parelli system. I'd just choose the cheapest.
Incidentally I have seen cheap copies of the carrot stick by other manufacturers and considered buying them, but they were just to flexible.


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## twp

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> Extreme Cowboy Association
> 
> 
> .
> [/FONT]


No, I know that, lol.. I thought Clinton Anderson Participated in the Extreme Cowboy Race?.. I do like Craig Cameron, by the way!


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## bsms

Hmmm...Pat is older than I realized...


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## smrobs

Truthfully, if I was going to buy anyone's "stick and string" thing, it would be Dennis Reis's. At least his has that handy little hook at one end.
Reis Ranch Horse Flag

As for who invented the Carrot Stick in particular, that would be PP, but it's really nothing more than his own take and some speshul name he slapped on something that has been used for millennia in the horse-handling arena.


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## Northern

nrhareiner said:


> So just B/C CA uses a stick that is must be a CS and he must have learnd it from PP? Really? You might want to think about that for a min. As PP and CA are not the only trainers who use a stick with a sting to work horses.


Well, yah, that's my conclusion (though Clinton never says, "I got this stick idea from PNH"), because his mentor in Australia, Ian whats-his-name, wasn't a stick user, the reiners in USA weren't, but PNH _is._

If you conclude differently, you should give a reason for it.


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## nrhareiner

My point is that CA first come over he worked under top reining trainer then went back to AUS. Not sure I have ever seen any thing that states he ever worked under PP.

My point is that if you think that every trainer who uses a stick and string worked under PP you are wrong. Stacy has been using a stick and string for years and she has never worked under PP or done any of his programs. She is much better then he would ever hope to be.


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## Northern

nrhareiner said:


> My point is that CA first come over he worked under top reining trainer then went back to AUS. Not sure I have ever seen any thing that states he ever worked under PP. *You probably* *can find out online. You can even ask Clinton.*
> 
> My point is that if you think that every trainer who uses a stick and string worked under PP you are wrong. *Not to worry, I've not made that* *assumption.:wink:* *Why are you even pointing it out to me?* Stacy has been using a stick and string for years and she has never worked under PP or done any of his programs. She is much better then he would ever hope to be.


Again, it's that we were discussing *Clinton's* history with the stick, relative to* Pat's*! How lousy or good Pat is at cueing, how much better Stacy is than Pat, the fact that you never heard that Clinton studied under PNH etc, obfuscate OP's simple question, which asked for the facts, not opinions.


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## nrhareiner

Northern said:


> Again, it's that we were discussing *Clinton's* history with the stick, relative to* Pat's*! How lousy or good Pat is at cueing, how much better Stacy is than Pat, the fact that you never heard that Clinton studied under PNH etc, obfuscate OP's simple question, which asked for the facts, not opinions.


Show me your facts then? Show me proof that CA ever trained under PP. 

Again the fact is that neither invented the device. It has been around a long long time before either of them ever set foot on earth.


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## Casey02

The carrot stick is a nice version of a stick (that you find out in the woods) and that's about it. No body owns it


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## Northern

smrobs said:


> ...
> As for who invented the Carrot Stick in particular, that would be PP, but it's really nothing more than his own take and some speshul name he slapped on something that has been used for millennia in the horse-handling arena.


This is where I'm not filled in on the facts: have others, B.P. (before Pat, just a li'l joke) used their whips as an extension of the arm, with which to stroke the horse as well as enforce directions? 

Or has the whip always been all stick & no carrot, as it were, B.P.? When I was a kid, the longe whip or crop were just whips, which the horses would've been shocked to find us stroking them with! Au contraire, the horses were always leery & overly aware that one had a crop. Yet that was considered normal horsemanship. I find the cs concept much better for the horse.


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## twp

bsms said:


> Hmmm...Pat is older than I realized...


Lol, It's him before McDonalds!:rofl:


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## nrhareiner

That is nothing new. People have been using all types of things from lunge whips to ropes to get horses use to all types of things over the years. Use of the lunge whip or Rope to get a horse use to you touching his legs and feet have been going on again as long as there have been horses and ropes.


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## twp

Northern said:


> This is where I'm not filled in on the facts: have others, B.P. (before Pat, just a li'l joke) used their whips as an extension of the arm, with which to stroke the horse as well as enforce directions?
> 
> Or has the whip always been all stick & no carrot, as it were, B.P.? When I was a kid, the longe whip or crop were just whips, which the horses would've been shocked to find us stroking them with! Au contraire, the horses were always leery & overly aware that one had a crop. Yet that was considered normal horsemanship. I find the cs concept much better for the horse.


I tried to touch this lady's horse with the dangling end of the lunge line, and she flipped her sh*t, lol.. I just waited untill she wasn't around, and did it anyway.. The horse was probably thinking "I don't think I'm even capable of a backflip" ..That's the look I got from Her anyway, lol.


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## smrobs

Northern said:


> This is where I'm not filled in on the facts: have others, B.P. (before Pat, just a li'l joke) used their whips as an extension of the arm, with which to stroke the horse as well as enforce directions?
> 
> Or has the whip always been all stick & no carrot, as it were, B.P.? When I was a kid, the longe whip or crop were just whips, which the horses would've been shocked to find us stroking them with! Au contraire, the horses were always leery & overly aware that one had a crop. Yet that was considered normal horsemanship. I find the cs concept much better for the horse.


Yes. Like NRHAreiner said, good horsemen have been using whatever was their tool of choice (whip, rope, stick, etc) to do exactly that for lots longer than dear old Pat has been alive.


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## twp

They have also been laying them down with a simple leed line for years.. What is the point in that?


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## smrobs

bsms said:


> Hmmm...Pat is older than I realized...


 
I'm wondering if he just got bucked off or something. It looks to me like his head is on backward :shock:.


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## nrhareiner

twp said:


> They have also been laying them down with a simple leed line for years.. What is the point in that?


 
Teaching a horse to lay down has many applications. So there are many points to it. Just depends on what you want out of your horse.


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## Northern

nrhareiner said:


> ... Use of the lunge whip or Rope to get a horse use to you touching his legs and feet have been going on again as long as there have been horses and ropes.


Thanks for that; that's neat!


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## bsms

Northern said:


> ...the fact that you never heard that Clinton studied under PNH...


Evidence? Here is what I found:

"_When he was fifteen, he apprenticed with nationally acclaimed horse trainers Gordon McKinlay, and later, Ian Francis. During this time he started and trained over 600 horses, and three years later, he used his knowledge and expertise to start his own horse training facility.

In 1996, Clinton came to the United States and worked with Al Dunning, winner of multiple American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA) world championships..._"

When did CA study under Pat Parelli?


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## Northern

It was ages ago that I read online that Clinton graduated Level 3 of PNH; it might've even been on a horse forum. I don't care to call them & ask, & it's highly plausible that Clinton'd leave his time spent in PNH out of his bio (if that's where you got the above), so we're left with whoever wants to, to call him & ask. (Although there exists the possibility of his denying it, competitiveness could prompt this. If he denies it, one could call PNH & see if they seem to be upfront about it.)

I don't see, however, why the possibility of Clinton's having studied PNH is met with such incredulity, here. If I said he studied under Jane Savoie, ok. lol!


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## nrhareiner

B/C I do not think he did. Not sure when he would have done it. I know most of his timeline as he showed reiners from about 2003-2008 then started his clinics. Part of the time was with Al and part back in Aus. He lived here in Ohio for quite some time too. So not sure when he would have had the time to do such a thing. 

Also just watching the 2 of them work a horse is so different. CA is much better at it and their styles are very different. If CA has studies under PP his style would be more like PP then what it is.


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## Northern

So the only way to know for sure is for either CA or PP or both to give the facts. 

Again, it didn't stretch _my_ credulity to read that CA studied PNH, & I do recall that the claim was made without any drama & no reason for me to be suspicious, but true, I haven't proof.


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## bsms

If CA had ever studied PNH, I strongly suspect Parelli would have pointed that out somewhere, sometime...Pat Parelli doesn't strike me as suffering from excessive modesty.


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## smrobs

bsms said:


> If CA had ever studied PNH, I strongly suspect Parelli would have pointed that out somewhere, sometime...Pat Parelli doesn't strike me as suffering from excessive modesty.


 
*chokelaughsnort* :rofl:


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## twp

They are kind of similar.. How does one go about calling?.. I must know for sure now.. the suspense.. is..killing..me!!


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## twp

SouthernTrailsGA said:


> Craig Cameron did the Extreme Cowboy Race
> 
> 
> .


No, Craig Cameron Invented/founded the ECR, and EMM.. Didn't Clinton participate in it, though?


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## Northern

twp said:


> They are kind of similar.. How does one go about calling?.. I must know for sure now.. the suspense.. is..killing..me!!


OMG, me, TOO! I don't think I'll sleep a wink till we get the truth!


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## twp

Northern said:


> OMG, me, TOO! I don't think I'll sleep a wink till we get the truth!


Good thing I got Clinton Anderson's Phone Number. :mrgreen: Just kidding.. 

Seriously though, Who's a** Do I have to tickle with a Feather to get to the bottom of this?.. lol. :hide:


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## Northern

Wall, the trouble is, as I see it, neither CA nor PP are known for sterling up-front-ness on subjects that they deem touchy!

And their minions, who man the phone lines & online contact lines, are apprised of the touchy subjects & prepared to reveal only as they've been directed.

Such a simple & guileless question could give rise to a big chill thrown at ya, as absurd as that is. Proceed at your own risk!


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## tinyliny

Pegasus1 said:


> I've tried using a lunge whip, to "whippy". The advantage of the carrot stick is that it is stiff. It allows the use of steady pressure on the horse which is not possible with a flexible stick.
> I have also found by testing on my wife (just kidding, my hand actually  ) that used with the same force a flexible whip causes much more pain than I can achieve with a carrot stick. I assume that CAs stick has similar characteristics as he probably got the idea when he was training under the Parelli system. I'd just choose the cheapest.
> Incidentally I have seen cheap copies of the carrot stick by other manufacturers and considered buying them, but they were just to flexible.


 
Believe it or not, that is why I prefer to use a dressage whip or a buggy whip when lunging. IF, and I say IF I need a hrose to move off or away from me NOW! then I don't feel that the carrot stick has the umph, nor can I manipulate it with the speed I need. And due to it's weight and clumsiness, if I am working up close to a horse, having them circle me real close, and I need to get a shoulder off me pronto, I can't get the darn carrot stick to do much at close quarters.

A dressage whip just has to be vibrated in the air real quick and the hrose will move away immediately. I rarely ever actually hit a horse. mostly either vibrate to make a noise, or just touch them lightly with the soft tip.
I see folks with carrot sticks swinging and swinging and swinging the rope, and too many times the horse makes no change. So, the biggesdt they can get with the carrot stick gets no response, so the hrose ends up needing MORE. 

However, I have seen Pat himself (in video) working with a horse at liberty with a carrot stick and it was a joy to watch.


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## Pegasus1

I have to say that when I first used a carrot stick I did not find it an easy tool. It is something I had to learn to use properly. In fact in the program they suggest a few exercises to get handy with the stick and string which only take a few minutes but do make a big difference. It is such a versatile tool that does take a while to get a feel for how to use it in different situations. 

I know that you could switch tools according to the situation and use a lunge whip for circling, a stiffer stick close in etc. But with a little practise the carrot stick can passable do all these things and I don't have to stop the exercise to get the tool I need now and miss the moment I need it in.

As for making a noise that's easy. Just hit the ground behind the horse with the string, that makes a big noise !

If I am working close in with a horse I tend to not use the stick and string, but the stick with a bag on the end. An even better tool when close in is a horsemanship flag Horseman's Flag . Just wish I could work out how to make one cheaper. And people say Parelli equipment is expensive :shock:. The disadvantage of this is that I have switched tools as noted above.

Again when close to the horse, if trying to get it to yield to steady pressure then I find that the stiffness of the stick is a great asset. Horse can lean on the pressure from the stick as much as they like and it will barely bend which teaches them that pushing into pressure does not work. If it were to give then they would learn pushing does work. I know you can use your fingers for this, but when working with a horse I don't know I prefer to be 4 feet away to start with and the stick allows this. Maybe I am just a coward.

I often turn the stick around if I need to really get the horse out of my space as the handle has more weight to it. I can then tap them with the handle end if needed to get them to back out of my space. That is something you really can't do effectively with a whip.

If you want to work a long way from the horse I sometimes add an extra string to the end of the first string to almost double the reach. The length of the carrot stick (4 feet) the string (6 feet) and your arm (2 feet) is designed to make the combination the right length when using a 12 foot rope. Using a longer rope you may need more length, but then you shouldn't be on a 22 foot rope until the horse is responding pretty well to the cues on the 12 foot rope.

In summary I would say that there are tools that will do specific jobs better. The lunge whip has been developed over years to be good for circling a horse after all. But like a Swizz Army Knife the carrot stick makes an adequate job of doing many things well enough without having to switch tools mid flow. With this in mind it is not really fair to compare the carrot stick with specific tools for a specific job. The question to ask is "is the carrot stick good enough for the task ?", not "is it perfect for the task ?".

As to whether the CA or Parelli stick is better I have no idea, but they look the same to me. I would be careful about buying cheaper imitations though, they tend to not be stiff enough.


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## bsms

I guess I'm missing something here. Why would I want to poke a horse with a stick?

I've watched a trainer break Lilly. I've watched her start Mia over from the beginning. I watched her work Trooper for 5 weeks. I've done ground work, under her supervision and alone, with all three. Not only have I never poked a horse with a stick, whip, or carrot of any length, but I've never been tempted to do so. Why is poking a horse with a stick a good idea? :shock:


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## gypsygirl

its possible that mia is more sensitive than some other horses. i never used any sort of stick or whip with gypsy either, even though i started her using CA methods. i just pointed with my hand or swung a rope if i needed to. i have trained other horses who are lazy clods who may sometimes need to be tapped with a stick to get them with the program.

personally i dont think anyone stole anything from anyone. the sticks are basically the same and lots of people use them.


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## bsms

^^ That makes sense.


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## Saddlebag

I've tried the carrot stick, not mine, and found it's weight hard on the wrist. I cut down an old lunge whip, added the leather tab and found some cotton rope. That was much easier on the wrist. That lasted about one session as I knew there had to be something better. Ah, the dressage whip. Much better but still a little too stiff. I wound up cutting a long thin willowy branch, stripped off the leaves - perfect. It weighs nothing and one quickly becomes adept at making the end sing. That gets a reluctant horse moving yet to touch the horse with the tip it's as light as a fly. It's tough to market willow branches.


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## Pegasus1

bsms said:


> I guess I'm missing something here. Why would I want to poke a horse with a stick?
> 
> I've watched a trainer break Lilly. I've watched her start Mia over from the beginning. I watched her work Trooper for 5 weeks. I've done ground work, under her supervision and alone, with all three. Not only have I never poked a horse with a stick, whip, or carrot of any length, but I've never been tempted to do so. Why is poking a horse with a stick a good idea? :shock:


What do you do with your leg when you ride ? Apply steady pressure to get them to move off it. So you poke them with your leg  That pressure may be very light, but it is still steady pressure. 

Using the stick you can apply that steady pressure whilst on the ground to prepare them for a similar sensation when riding them. As I said in the earlier post this can be done with your fingers, but that means getting up close and personal with the horse, a place you may not wish to be if they are reactive to such pressure. 

Filly was very reactive to start with as I have documented on this forum, I would not have wanted to be too close. However by using the stick to apply the pressure using the phases of pressure to hair, skin, muscle, bone and releasing at the phase of pressure that caused the desired response we worked through the dangerous phase to where we are now, which is the lightest touch with my fingers. 
When riding the other day I was getting the prettiest hind quarter yields through 360 degrees with the lightest pressure from my leg, but it all started with the pressure coming from the carrot stick.

Now of course there are other places that we might want to apply steady pressure such as the chest to get them to back up, both for handling in the stable and riding (think string around neck when brideless). Using fingers to start this process on a young untrained horse is asking for them to bite you. Using the stick and standing in front of them I am out of harms way whilst they work out the correct response to that pressure. I can also hold it for longer if needed as my fingers won't get so tired. If it takes a long time I actually just lean on it with my body. This is definitely not possible with a flexible whip.

For more info on this look at my post on the 7 games thread. In Parelli land we call it the Porcupine game. The game of yielding to steady pressure.


----------



## bsms

Pegasus1 said:


> What do you do with your leg when you ride ? Apply steady pressure to get them to move off it. So you poke them with your leg  That pressure may be very light, but it is still steady pressure.
> 
> Using the stick you can apply that steady pressure whilst on the ground to prepare them for a similar sensation when riding them. As I said in the earlier post this can be done with your fingers, but that means getting up close and personal with the horse, a place you may not wish to be if they are reactive to such pressure...


Hmm. With Lilly & Mia, we (the trainer & I) used the stirrup to simulate the heel. Prior to that, we used flapping the fenders, rubbing them with the dressage whip, rubbing them with lariats, draping a rope down & around their hind legs, etc to get them used to feeling things there.

The tip of a stick might approximate the feel of a spur, but the stirrup (or fender if we were using a western saddle) did a pretty good job of imitating the leg or heel. Mia needed a lot of desensitizing to her sides and rear legs so she could learn bit cues from the ground. She was fine with having her rear legs handled, but a rope rubbing against them would panic her at first. Once she got used to that, then it was time for learning bit cues. Leg cues followed that. Here is the trainer working with her on bit cues. It took about 6 weeks to get here, and a couple more before the first mount:


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## LesandLily

A carrot stick /handy stick is meant only to be an extension of your arm. Attach a string to it and you have a really long arm. Especially early in a horses training it is much better to have the end of your stick in certain places than your actual arm. It is designed to be used in replacement of your actual body parts until it is safe to have your body parts there. As the horse gets better trained and more respectful, it becomes a much less necessary tool. I am pretty much down now to using the swinging end of a lead rope (I like a really long lead rope...15 feet) to get my point across and as things progress I will likely not need that. The term as gentle as possible and as firm as necessary applies to sticks as well. If necessary the bullwhip would come out, if I needed a REALLY strong extension of my arm. Neither Pat Parelli or CA claim invention of the stick...at least I have never heard them claim it...although they both claim to have superior craftsmanship on their product...but who doesn't. LOL.

I have made my own sticks from fencing rods, wood rowels and cut down lunge whips. They all work, some better than others. I do prefer my CA stick as the bugs have been worked out of it and I don't have to remake it all the time.


CA studying under PP is an old wives tale started by PP followers. Their styles are totally different and if you follow their timelines through their careers, there is no place it could have happened. Both good trainers with exceptional careers but not clones of each other...actually came form two different continents. I prefer CA just cause I can't listen to PP. He drives me nuts...but he is a great trainer who learn from GREAT trainers.

Cheers.
Les


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## twp

Saddlebag said:


> I've tried the carrot stick, not mine, and found it's weight hard on the wrist. I cut down an old lunge whip, added the leather tab and found some cotton rope. That was much easier on the wrist. That lasted about one session as I knew there had to be something better. Ah, the dressage whip. Much better but still a little too stiff. I wound up cutting a long thin willowy branch, stripped off the leaves - perfect. It weighs nothing and one quickly becomes adept at making the end sing. That gets a reluctant horse moving yet to touch the horse with the tip it's as light as a fly. It's tough to market willow branches.


See, That's what I was thinking.. They have something like a carrot stick at TSC, (The Fiberglass Cattle prod, with out the Shock, lol.) It was really Heavy.. I bet Pat is friggin ripped! Lol. 

Since I don't own a lunge line, I do the small circles on a lead line.. I just make the kissie noise, and mah pony goes.. Sometimes I swing the end of the lead.. If I want more line, I pull up a cat tail.. Can you say "Redneckitry" ?! Lol. It totally works though!


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## Pegasus1

LesandLily said:


> I prefer CA just cause I can't listen to PP. He drives me nuts...but he is a great trainer who learn from GREAT trainers.


The snag with Pat is that his voice does send me to sleep, but nearly everything he says on a DVD is important, though at first I didn't realise this. It was only when James kept saying "everything you need for now is in the level 1 to 4 packs". I would challenge him occasionally and he would just say "watch them again". He would be right, it was in there, but as what initially just appeared to be a throw away remark through which I had probably dozed off :-(. The more I learn the more information I find is in the packs. 

Sorry this is of topic but the above quote brought it to mind.


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## twp

That's why I like to watch his bloopers!! Best show ever!! He should make a DVD of just Bloopers, to keep us all Entertained!!


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## Ian McDonald

twp said:


> I thought a carrot stick was made of fiberglass?


I always assumed that it was made out of carrots.


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## twp

Ian McDonald said:


> I always assumed that it was made out of carrots.


:rofl:aahahaha!! 

It's a bribe thing!..Now it all Makes sense!


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## Pegasus1

They had an hour long Clinton film on tv last night. First time I have seen him in action. Generally very impressed he seemed to use all the Pat Parelli games and taught them the same way. They had different names of course Sending Exercise = Squeeze Game, Desensitising = Friendly Game (though Clintons name for it does not convey its purpose which is confidence and reading of human neutral body language not desensitising), Sidepass = Sideways Game.
I did pick up a few idea that I have never seen in Parelli, but felt that he was a little firmer than Pat. He seemed to expect more from the horse on a first attempt at a new exercise. Sideways (I mean Sidepass) went on for ages, where Pat would teach to release at the first "thought" of sideways and then slowly build on it.
Surprised he made a big thing about there being no use for "sideways towards the handler". I use it all the time to mount from a fence or mounting block, getting the horse to come to me, at liberty, rather than lead them into position. The idea is to make them a part of the process. You can tell a lot if your horse suddenly does not sidepass to you to be mounted. They know this is the step before riding, and if they don't want to be ridden it is a gentle way of letting you know. Maybe best to check on the ground as to why before mounting and finding out !
All in all I can see why folks like Clintons' teachings and I suspect that choosing Pat or Clinton is mostly a personal thing not a technical one. Maybe to do with the accent , though I did get a bit fed up with the number of times he said "OK" :-(. 
I would think that studying both would be the best as both systems seem to be very compatible and one clinician cannot cover the entire topic, its' too big.


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## Ian McDonald

Pegasus1 said:


> (though Clintons name for it does not convey its purpose which is confidence and reading of human neutral body language not desensitising)


I've never heard it put like that before, but that is exactly what I have in mind when I'm working with the flag. Is that Pat's explanation? It's a good way to think of it.


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## Pegasus1

A large part of the purpose of the freindly game is to get the horse a) confident with whatever the human happens to want to do around him and b) understand what the neutral body language of the human is when the human is after no response other than to maintain its responsibilities. Maintain gait, maintain direction and look where you are going. Maintain gait could mean stand still of course.
So by switching to friendly game after each other game (all of which require a response) then the horse learns the change in body language as the release is given. 

This translates into riding. Having given the cue to walk on and had it obeyed the human switches into neutral and expects the horse to keep its' responsibilities. That neutral does not mean I can't do other things, just I am not talking to the horse at the moment. After all you may be working a cow off that horse.

Friendly game does not mean you have to have low energy, as I would have the walk energy still in my body when riding, but it does mean that I'm expecting nothing further from the horse at this moment, just keep doing what you are doing. 
What it teaches the horse is the difference in body language, not body energy, that means neutral.

The way Friendly game is taught in Parelli level one with all that rope and stick swinging etc is not to desensitise the horse to the rope, (heaven forbid, they need to be sensitive to the rope) but to teach the human to be active but have no intention towards the horse in their body. If they have intention then the horse will react to the rope and the human gets feedback that their body language is not good enough yet. 

It also has the effect of getting the horse confident with the rope, stick etc. Confident but not desensitised. Once the horse is confident it will remain in a learning state of mind when the tools are used, not a fearful instinctive state of mind where nothing is learnt. 

I cannot imagine why we would want to desensitise the horse to the rope, stick or anything else. It would mean they became dull to their use.


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## bsms

Desensitize is usually used to mean "not afraid of", not "unaware of"...


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## Pegasus1

I guess it depends which version of desensitised - definition of desensitised by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia. you take. I prefer not to use it as some of the definitions are most definitely not what we want to achieve and so using the phrase "make confident with" avoids folks picking up on the wrong one. I guess James banned its' use as he wanted no possibility of such an important concept to be misconstrued by his students.


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## kayhmk

Pegasus1 said:


> Surprised he made a big thing about there being no use for "sideways towards the handler". I use it all the time to mount from a fence or mounting block, getting the horse to come to me, at liberty, rather than lead them into position.


I like your thinking on this! I think it would be so perfect for my girl. I'm not too well-versed in Parelli (have his book and done the level 1 stuff, vintage 1999) so I don't know if and how (or where) he goes about teaching sideways towards the handler, but would LOVE to hear & learn about it! Can you tell me more?

(Sorry to take the thread on a tangent.)


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## Pegasus1

kayhmk said:


> I like your thinking on this! I think it would be so perfect for my girl. I'm not too well-versed in Parelli (have his book and done the level 1 stuff, vintage 1999) so I don't know if and how (or where) he goes about teaching sideways towards the handler, but would LOVE to hear & learn about it! Can you tell me more?
> 
> (Sorry to take the thread on a tangent.)


As in all things, it it a step by step process. Clearly we are not going to be able to use steady pressure to push on the far side of the horse to help it step over, so we need to be thinking driving pressure. The first thing I do is to get them confident with a stick and flag as a signalling tool. Do not desensitise them to it, we want them to respond sensitively but with confidence to its signals. 

Once that is done we then want to be able to do very good sideways away from us using the flag to alternatively drive the shoulder away a step, then the hips, then the shoulder, then the hips etc. This establishes the signal to move whichever part of the body is being signalled by the flag to move away. 
The signalling must be done in phases. First a still flag in the correct position, then a lightly waving flag, then however hard you have to wave it, up to and including the flag touching the shoulder or hip.

Once this response is good when standing to the side of the horse, try and stand in front and see if you can drive them sideways whilst you sidestep with them whilst in front of them.

By now the horse is well used to flag signals and now comes the physically hard bit on your arms (You can cheat a bit by standing on a mounting block). Whilst standing to the horses side reach over their back and ask the hind quarters to take a step towards you, going up the phases as I have mentioned. Even if all you see is a weight shift towards you quit. It was a "try" and needs rewarding. Then ask again and keep asking until a little more effort is made than last time, then quit. Each time go up the phases, however keen you are to get the movement don't rush it. Once you have a hind quarter step do the same with the shoulder and so on.

Eventually your horse will come over to you from a distance if you just raise you hand up as though you had a stick and flag in it without actually having one. Hence the importance of going through the phases everytime and quitting on the slightest improvement in the try.

Have fun, I've really enjoyed teaching my horses this and it is a really practical skill. Both for mounting, accurate positioning to load in a trailer and many other occasions it has helped me out. Don't really see what Clinton has against it if it is done not as a party trick, but with a purpose.


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## Jolly Badger

I've been reading through this thread, and find it kind of amusing that so many people think that just because one person created a specific product (like the Almighty Majikal Carrot Stick), they are the first person to EVER use a device like that, in that way. . .and that all those who have come before with their "lunge whips" and "dressage whips" and "jumping bats/crops" were using them for _totally_ different purposes. 

And, that those purposes were not even close to what the Majikal Schtick was intended for.

One post referred to horses that acted "spooky" when confronted with a riding crop. Don't people ever stop to think that, if the horse's only past experience has been with riding crops was being batted with one, that it would have that reaction? 

A riding crop CAN be used to "direct" a horse, like an extension of your arm. . .and you don't need to spend $$$ on a video series to figure out how to do that.

At the same time, a Majikal Carrot Schtick could be used as a riding crop, to "pop" the horse in the flank or drive it forward on a lunge line. . .and the horse wouldn't think of it any differently just because Carrot Sticks were originally "intended" for another purpose.

The horse doesn't care _what_ it's called. The horse doesn't care if the "inventor" of the object looks like he has a squirrel coming out of his nose, or if he speaks with an Australian accent and ends all of his sentences with the word "mate." 

If I walked up to a horse carrying a bath towel and suddenly started waving it in the horse's face while yelling at the animal, or swatting at its legs or flanks, that horse would likely startle or spook. From that point on, it may have "issues" with having flappy-things waved around it. 

If I approached the horse in a calm manner and slowly started grooming the horse with the cloth, running it over the face and eyes, it might be nervous at first but would eventually calm down and relax. Might even start to like it.

Calling the bath towel what it is, or giving it a new name (like a Jolly Badger Warm-Fuzzy Snuggle-Paw) won't change anything. Having my name and emblem stamped all over it won't change what it is, it just means I can charge a ton more money for it and some sucker out there will pay. 

How I use it in training is all that really matters.


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## Pegasus1

I tend to agree with the previous post. However I will say that there is a difference in the quality of the various sticks. I tend to use Carrot Sticks, and no I don't pay full price. Parelli regularly have promotional sales and I buy them when they are cheap.
I tend to have three available when I am training a horse. One with a bag or flag attached, one with a string and one with nothing. I could get away with one and change the attached items, but that takes time and if I need to switch it tends to be that I need to switch NOW not in a few minutes.
One thing I would NOT buy again is a Parelli Junior Carrot stick, they are just too flimsy and last about two weeks. The full size ones are incredibly strong and I have had horse canter over them and not even scratch them, with shoes on. I have heard that some of the copies are just not that tough.
As to using other tools like lunge whips instead of carrot sticks that is fine. As my trainer James used to say (he was a farrier before becoming a horse trainer) "I can shoe a horse with any hammer you like, it is just more elegant and efficient to use the correct tool". 
I feel the same. If all I can pick up is a stick in the woods, it will suffice, but using the correct tool for the job, a carrot stick, lunge whip, short whip etc is just more elegant and efficient. The carrot stick was designed to do a specific job well and it fills that niche. A lunge whip was also designed to do a specific job well and through centuries of development it is also well adapted to that job.
The trick is to use the right tool for the job at hand not get caught up in marketing, or anti marketing, hype.


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## Ian McDonald

I believe that Road to the Horse proved once and for all that Chris Cox owns them both. :mrgreen:


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## tinyliny

I saw last year (2011) road to the horse. From that and some other things, I pretty much got the feeling that I didn't jive too well with Clinton Anderson. Parelli did not do too badly, just that he simply could not stop talking. And CA was huffing and puffing and making all kinds of clicking and shushing noises.

And Chris Cox, just works quietly, quietly, giving his colt breaks and just hanging in there , calm , quiet and firm. He's quality.


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## LesandLily

tinyliny said:


> I saw last year (2011) road to the horse. From that and some other things, I pretty much got the feeling that I didn't jive too well with Clinton Anderson. Parelli did not do too badly, just that he simply could not stop talking. And CA was huffing and puffing and making all kinds of clicking and shushing noises.
> 
> And Chris Cox, just works quietly, quietly, giving his colt breaks and just hanging in there , calm , quiet and firm. He's quality.


I really like Chris Cox too, I would LOVE to go to one of his clinics. I think overall he is a better trainer than either CA or PP but he is not as good at training people as CA is. That is the one big thing that he has over the others is how good he is a delivering his method to people, especially those who don't have a lot of horse training experience.

Cheers!
Les


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## Pegasus1

Ian McDonald said:


> I believe that Road to the Horse proved once and for all that Chris Cox owns them both. :mrgreen:


Would love to have watched it. Paid for the internet feed but it didn't work. Won't waste my money on a live feed again.


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## tinyliny

There is just something about CA that rubs me the wrong way. I find that I am in the minority on that, though. He is uber popular here.


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## COWCHICK77

Jolly Badger said:


> If I walked up to a horse carrying a bath towel and suddenly started waving it in the horse's face while yelling at the animal, or swatting at its legs or flanks, that horse would likely startle or spook. From that point on, it may have "issues" with having flappy-things waved around it.
> 
> If I approached the horse in a calm manner and slowly started grooming the horse with the cloth, running it over the face and eyes, it might be nervous at first but would eventually calm down and relax. Might even start to like it.
> 
> Calling the bath towel what it is, or giving it a new name (like a Jolly Badger Warm-Fuzzy Snuggle-Paw) won't change anything. Having my name and emblem stamped all over it won't change what it is, it just means I can charge a ton more money for it and some sucker out there will pay.
> 
> How I use it in training is all that really matters.


"AND if you call within the next 30 seconds we will give you TWO Jolly Badger Warm-fuzzy Snuggle Paws for the price of one! All you have to do is pay additional shipping and handling!"

I kind have to laugh...Long time ago I went to work for a cutting horse trainer starting colts and on the first day he hands me the lead rope of a snorty barely halter broke colt and a livestock whip with a dish towel duct taped to the end....LOL:shock: and tells me to get to work.
So I can vouch that the Jolly Badger Warm-Fuzzy snuggle Paw does work.


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## tinyliny

I want one! I want one!


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## COWCHICK77

tinyliny said:


> I want one! I want one!


LOL! It will ship tomorrow!

If you double your order I will throw in a "Super Deluxe Scrubby Love Mitten"(a worn out cotton string glove) for Free! (just pay 29.95 for additional shipping)


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## tinyliny

But wait! There's more ! . . . .


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## Muppetgirl

Carrot stick, pogo stick, drum stick, broom stick........I prefer a lunge whip or driving whip!! LOL!

I just cannot imagine saying ' Can someone please pass me my carrot stick':lol:

It's a gimmicky way of taking the word whip and making it sound nice......


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## tinyliny

I think the name is more to imply that it is to be used both as the proverbial "carrot" and the proverbial "stick".


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## Muppetgirl

tinyliny said:


> I think the name is more to imply that it is to be used both as the proverbial "carrot" and the proverbial "stick".


Still sounds......stupid!:lol:


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## Nokotaheaven

tinyliny said:


> There is just something about CA that rubs me the wrong way. I find that I am in the minority on that, though. He is uber popular here.


I agree. i hear lots about him, so I watched a video of him working with a young colt.. Although CA's actions and intentions came across clearly to me, I couldn't help but notice that the entire time the colt was terrified... He wasn't jumping around, but you could see in his eyes and small reactions that he was terrified... It all just rubbed me the wrong way


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## Nokotaheaven

Muppetgirl said:


> Carrot stick, pogo stick, drum stick, broom stick........I prefer a lunge whip or driving whip!! LOL!
> 
> I just cannot imagine saying ' Can someone please pass me my carrot stick':lol:
> 
> It's a gimmicky way of taking the word whip and making it sound nice......


Haha, I've said way too many times "Can you pass me the carrot stick" xD


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## Muppetgirl

Nokotaheaven said:


> Haha, I've said way too many times "Can you pass me the carrot stick" xD


I'm more likely to ask for my broomstick!!! LOL :twisted:


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## Nokotaheaven

Muppetgirl said:


> I'm more likely to ask for my broomstick!!! LOL :twisted:


Hahaha, well i guess anything's better than the manure rake lol xD


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## Jolly Badger

tinyliny said:


> I think the name is more to imply that it is to be used both as the proverbial "carrot" and the proverbial "stick".


I was just in TSC (farm store) and was passing by the display of lunge whips, riding crops, etc. Among them, there was a show hog stick. At least that's what they called it. 

It cost a whopping $9.99 and was bright pink with a grippy handle, about 4' long, and had a nice weight to it. It reminded me - a _lot_ - of the various majikal sticks, wands, and other Miracle Devices I see being sold in NH trainers' booths at the big horse expos.

Just a lot less expensive.


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## Pegasus1

Carrot stick and string $45.95
12 foot line with snap $34.76
22 foot line with snap $43.46
Rope halter $17.36

Total $141 or around £88 UK pounds

One months livery £400.

The kit is not actually that expensive compared to my other costs in owning and caring for a horse. I reckon the total cost for me is around £6000 / $9700 per year per horse. 

I have tried buying kit from other suppliers, but can honestly say that it has never been as good as genuine kit. I have had horses stand on carrot sticks with shoes on and barely scratch it.

What I am trying to say is that I can hardly believe that there is an entire thread complaining how expensive the kit is given you only need to buy it once and bearing in mind how much horses actually cost to own if you are honest with yourself and add in all the expenses you incur.

Put another way, if I manage to play with my horse for 1 hour a day ( I don't include all the stable management time, but the actual riding/play time) then that hour costs £20. Averaging 1 hour a day all year round whilst working full time, having the occasional holiday, horse sickness etc etc is actually quite difficult to achieve so I am being generous here. 

By buying good quality, proven kit, I am not going to loose any time with my horse due to broken kit. Each hour lost costs me around £20 

Thus the entire kit to get started is equivalent to around 4 hours play. The stick, about 90 minutes !!

I know these figures might shock some, but keeping a horse in part livery in the UK just outside London is expensive. And with both me and my wife in work part livery is actually the only option for us if we want to own horses at all.


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## bsms

Jolly Badger said:


> ...Among them, there was a show hog stick. At least that's what they called it.
> 
> It cost a whopping $9.99 and was bright pink with a grippy handle, about 4' long, and had a nice weight to it...


I'm just trying to imagine CA advertising his "DownUnder Australian Hog Stick", or Pat marketing a "Natural Horsemanship Pig Stick"...not sure the average suburban woman, new to horses and a bit intimidated by them, wants to go "play" with their horse & "Hog Stick"! :lol:

Here is a 30" pig stick by Weaver ($8): 

Pig Stick Show Stick Weaver Leather (Showing Grooming - Show Pig - Show Sticks Bats)

And here is a Deluxe Pig Whip w/ Chrome Tip ($12):

Deluxe Pig Whip w/ Chrome Tip Weaver Leather (Showing Grooming - Show Pig - Show Sticks Bats)

Now if they would just market them with an Australian accent by a guy with a big mustache...


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## nrhareiner

No lunge whip
$9.99 lungle line used befor the first 4 or 5 rides.
$4.99 halter used with lunge line befor the first 4-5 rides.

Add in GOOD TRAINING and you get this.










It is not about what you put on the horse it is about what you put into the horse in the form of training. I would NEVER let PP swing a leg over one of my horses. I have watched him ride. My horses would not tolerate him at all.


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## Pegasus1

nrhareiner said:


> No lunge whip
> $9.99 lungle line used befor the first 4 or 5 rides.
> $4.99 halter used with lunge line befor the first 4-5 rides.
> Add in GOOD TRAINING and you get this.


And where do you learn to be a good enough trainer to do the good training required ? Ah yes, from someone who trains people and horses. 
Pat never says you can't get good results from using whatever equipment you like, but it is just easier if you have good equipment. And if you are starting out, like I am, I don't need to prove how brilliant I am at training by using minimalist equipment, I need all the help I can get.

An unarmed man lives in a civilisation
An armed man lives in a ....


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## bsms

An unarmed man HOPES he lives in a civilization.
An armed man carries civilization with him.

Not sure, tho, how that impacts Parelli or Anderson.

However, someone starting out shouldn't be training horses. I write that fully understanding that I unknowingly bought one with minimal training, and have spent 4+ years trying to get out of that hole. However, in my defense, I did hire a trainer, because I wasn't up to it and no book or DVD would get me up to speed.

Ideally, you start with a well trained horse and learn to ride. You don't do that in months, but years.

Then you start do minimal training - maybe teaching a young horse that is broken but unbalanced to balance better. And you take on more and more teaching opportunities, until you know enough to try training your first horse. Then you do that, WITH HELP. Even so, it probably won't be pretty.

Then you work your way up in experience and the level of skill needed.

That doesn't mean that a DVD or book can't give you ideas, provided you know your limitations. If you don't know your limitations, or if many students apparently don't, then the DVDs need to address that issue.

I bought some DVDs from Larry Trocha on both some basics and on good stops. Mia is pretty well behaved, but when she gets wound up and galloping with another horse, she doesn't stop for squat. And after watching just part of the DVD, I can see how I've screwed up. I was putting so much emphasis on getting her used to going out on the trail that I let her get sloppy about stops. Yes, she stops...but not as cleanly and promptly and completely as she could. And if I understand Larry Trocha's point, a horse that doesn't stop perfectly at a walk or trot isn't going to stop for squat when they are wound up and galloping.

After 5 years with horses, mostly with Mia, that is about the most advanced training I'm willing to undertake - to try to get a better stop from her at all times. For all I know, CA or Parelli might have DVDs that would have also given me some good ideas. But I've got 5 years behind me now, and have worked with trainers watching me, and I'm only going to try something very simple now. And if I run into problems, I won't hesitate to ask for help - from a breathing person watching what we're doing.

Horses are neat creatures. They deserve good training, from someone with the background to give it. IMHO.


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## smrobs

:clap::clap: ^^


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## Pegasus1

bsms said:


> An unarmed man HOPES he lives in a civilization.
> An armed man carries civilization with him.


I agree, it doesn't impact on this debate. Just felt nrhareiners signature needed a reply. I've mentioned it once, nrh mentions it on every post.

Living in a civilisation I can honestly say I have never seen a gun being carried for personal protection or offensive use. And I am PROUD to be a subject of Queen Elizabeth II.


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## bsms

fftopic:

Living in uncivilized southern Arizona, where the cops will be there within 30 minutes...I often carry a gun. And when I do, civilization travels with me. Although if I'm doing it right, you could walk past me and still say, "say I have never seen a gun being carried for personal protection or offensive use". If I'm carrying a gun openly, it means I'm out hiking or out shooting.

As a subject of Queen Elizabeth, you HOPE you live in a civilized spot, because a bad guy with a baseball bat or a couple of guys with knives can make your life very uncivilized very fast. One of my co-workers in Oxford in 1990 had his face smashed by a guy he never saw...just some drunk who didn't like Americans and smashed a beer mug into his head. Severe concussion, then a fractured jaw from a follow-up blow - all from someone he had never met! Even in civilized Oxford England, there are uncivilized people walking around. But if a couple of guys break in my home, they will soon discover the rule of law still applies.

nrhareiner's signature goes beyond that. It is based on colonial times, and what happened when the King's soldiers wanted to seize the weapons of the subjects living in America...who didn't remain subjects much longer. It reflects the traditional American resentment of intrusive government. It is NOT anti-English, however. Prior to 1900, there were no gun control laws in England, which is why Dr Watson was free to carry his revolver with him...

Cultural explanation given, back to topic!


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## Pegasus1

bsms said:


> fftopic:
> 
> Living in uncivilized southern Arizona, where the cops will be there within 30 minutes...I often carry a gun. And when I do, civilization travels with me. Although if I'm doing it right, you could walk past me and still say, "say I have never seen a gun being carried for personal protection or offensive use". If I'm carrying a gun openly, it means I'm out hiking or out shooting.
> 
> As a subject of Queen Elizabeth, you HOPE you live in a civilized spot, because a bad guy with a baseball bat or a couple of guys with knives can make your life very uncivilized very fast. One of my co-workers in Oxford in 1990 had his face smashed by a guy he never saw...just some drunk who didn't like Americans and smashed a beer mug into his head. Severe concussion, then a fractured jaw from a follow-up blow - all from someone he had never met! Even in civilized Oxford England, there are uncivilized people walking around. But if a couple of guys break in my home, they will soon discover the rule of law still applies.
> 
> nrhareiner's signature goes beyond that. It is based on colonial times, and what happened when the King's soldiers wanted to seize the weapons of the subjects living in America...who didn't remain subjects much longer. It reflects the traditional American resentment of intrusive government. It is NOT anti-English, however. Prior to 1900, there were no gun control laws in England, which is why Dr Watson was free to carry his revolver with him...
> 
> Cultural explanation given, back to topic!


This has been a useful exchange. I now understand the position some folks on this forum take on life. Living in the UK we are somewhat sheltered from this attitude and it is interesting to hear.


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## nrhareiner

Those lines in my Sig have been there for years now. The last 2 go hand and hand. With out the first you will not have the second for long. This is why our founding fathers set up the bill of rights and the constitution the way they did.


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## Pegasus1

Like I said an interesting exchange. When people are evaluating opinions given on this sort of subject it is useful for them to know a bit about the personality of the person giving the opinion.

I am probably what would be considered a bleeding heart liberal in parts of the USA, but am actually fairly right wing by UK standards. 
This set of personal beliefs probably influences why I like some horse trainers and not others. I can't help it, it is in my cultural upbringing. Maybe that is why I like the approach of Pat Parelli, but whilst I acknowledge her great achievements did not click so well with Stacey Westfalls approach (I watch her World Champ ride on YouTube for inspiration often). I am NOT demeaning her training style at all, it is just that for my personal psyche it does not work as well.
When people are evaluating what program to follow this is an important consideration. They are going to be taking part and listening to many hours of instruction in that program and if it jars against their personal belief set it will hinder the learning process.
Also I accept that Pat is not the best rider in the world, but then I doubt that Tiger Woods coach is the best golfer in the world. If he was he would supplant Tiger Woods ! It is not necessary to seek out the best rider, but the trainer from whom you can personally gain the most benefit.
I fly gliders at an international level but my sports psychologist trainer has never sat in a glider, let alone flown one. Yet I still trust her to be part of my training team and have learnt many things of use from her.


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## nrhareiner

While I agree and understand what you are saying. PP is not only a bad rider but a bad trainer. Look at the horses he rides every day you would think those would be some very well trained horses. They are not.

While you can use people who are not doing what you are doing like your sports psychologist may never have flown a plane of any kind however in her chosen area I am getting she is one of the best. She did not learn from a bad trainer or a bad teacher. She picked up what she knows from what I would hope to be the best. As she is not teaching you how to fly but how to handle the presure that comes with flying at that level. I have over the years worked with people who are at the top of what they do and a lot of the people around them can not even come close to what they do but they are there for a reason. Not to help improve on what the person is doing but to keep their mind spirit and soal in the game.

This is where I think PP can help some poeple. Do not use him as a trainer or how to train your horse but you can use him for his mind set on some things. I personally do not find him usuful in anyway but I can see how some could. Take that from him and use others that have proven themselves to be good trainers and use that info for training.


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## Pegasus1

That is your opinion. But if you read Padronas' post on page 2 of "your opinion on Parelli" she has a different opinion. From her description of her experience with horses I would say that her opinion is likely to be equally valid. 
I guess she has a different personality to yours and for her Parelli works.


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## nrhareiner

I have little doubt that it works for some poeple and some horses. I know one person who did ok with PP. Did not get killed and her horse is ridable. However took over 4 years to get what I would consider a green broke horse. Others I have seen and been around are not even what I would consider green broke. They are pussy and dangours horses. Will not have one here on my property. Sent one home a few years ago in to be bred.

I also think that depending on the person PP works better for some then others. The ones I find that PP system works better for are those who would do well with horses regarldess of useing PP system.

Here is a clip of PP on Majic. A horse he has been riding and training for quite some time.

Notice once he looses the big bouncy ball which I will not comment on.

Look when he starts to show how well he can do a reining maneuver.

Wathch his seat his body his head and more of all watch his hands. Then look at what he is doing affects the horse and not in a good way.





 
Now go back and look at some of the trainers I posted earlier doing the same maneuver. See the differance?


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## Pegasus1

I have said before that I agree that Pat is not a top rider. As far as I am aware Majic was not trained to be a top reining horse. Her primary task was colt starting and inspirational shows. Therefore you are not comparing like with like. The video you show was of Pat just having a bit of fun with the audience. He does not profess to be a reining trainer. In fact he endorses a video called "Let It Rein" Let It Rein DVD by Craig Johnson Parelli Natural Horsemanship if folks want to get into reining (which I would like to have a play at by the way. Just not much of it in my area of the UK).
This is just an example of how Pat says his program is just foundation training which James reckoned folks should finish in around 2 years, for them and their horses, and then go an find a specialist for their sport. They work very closely with Walter Zettl for dressage as well. In fact Linda was brave enough to have a live lesson with Walter in front of an audience of around 6000 people a few years ago in Birmingham UK. And he did not take any prisoners !!

Reading Craigs c.v it seems (though I know nothing about it) that he is a pretty good reining horsemen. I doubt that he would or needs to associate himself with Parelli, but chooses to do so.


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## Dame Nuit

I agree with what Pegasus says : I'm not at all a western rider, and don't want to be one. 
We have in France à great classical riding tradition, and our horses and fitted for that équitation. 

So I absolutly don't care about western riding from PP. 

But, what I can improve with PP methode is the way you bring your horse into confidence, willing to do things, lightness in riding response... And then you chose what to do with your horse. 
And in France it is mostly jumping, dressage, driving, trial... Not even 1% rider choose western riding.


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> Look when he starts to show how well he can do a reining maneuver.
> 
> Wathch his seat his body his head and more of all watch his hands. Then look at what he is doing affects the horse and not in a good way.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scxdV7RmWpc
> 
> Now go back and look at some of the trainers I posted earlier doing the same maneuver. See the differance?


Would you agree with me to say that P. Parelli don't ride his horses with a "Traditional Spade"? You surely can't do what you see him do with a spade. 
He use a briddle bit more like european dressage bit, whitch are made to be used with a contact with the horse's mouth, so the horse mouve his jaw because that cause the horse's back to be relax. 
I certainly would not call that "affect" the horse. 

Maybe, I don't know, connecting european and western horsemanship is a crime! :lol: It would be a crime in France to use a "traditional spade", even for western horsemanship. :twisted: 

But I just wonder, about the two first videos you showed, how is the bit INSIDE the mouth.


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## COWCHICK77

Dame Nuit said:


> Would you agree with me to say that P. Parelli don't ride his horses with a "Traditional Spade"? You surely can't do what you see him do with a spade.
> He use a briddle bit more like european dressage bit, whitch are made to be used with a contact with the horse's mouth, so the horse mouve his jaw because that cause the horse's back to be relax.
> I certainly would not call that "affect" the horse.
> 
> Maybe, I don't know, connecting european and western horsemanship is a crime! :lol: It would be a crime in France to use a "traditional spade", even for western horsemanship. :twisted:
> 
> But I just wonder, about the two first videos you showed, how is the bit INSIDE the mouth.


You need to educate yourself before you go running your mouth about a training style you obviously know nothing about.

The spade bit is not a torture device used to beat a horse into submission. It is about using signals rather than leverage for communication. This style of horsemanship is about preservation of the mouth, it is considered sacred! We also believe in a soft jaw. It is the mechanics of the bit that allows for softness and relaxation.

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/old-school-horse-training-approach-148455/

I suggest you read through the whole thread I linked above. It will give you a better understanding.


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## Dame Nuit

I just read that thread yesterday and I've been quite traumatised by it... :? 

In France, you're sure end up in Tribunal Court and have your horses taken away from you if you use such a technic... :evil: No joke.


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## COWCHICK77

Dame Nuit said:


> I just read that thread yesterday and I've been quite traumatised by it... :?
> 
> In France, you're sure end up in Tribunal Court and have your horses taken away from you if you use such a technic... :evil: No joke.


Then obviously you do not understand it and how it works. I am curious as to what part "traumatized" you? Maybe I can help you understand.


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## Dame Nuit

View from Europe, that stuff is just inbeleivable. And ABSOLUTELY USELESS. 
If you think Pat Parelli is a poor rider because he doesn't use this, That will make him a far better rider than I thaugt in my mind! 

NB : I looked at Andrea Fappani's website, and it seems he doesn't use it neither?


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## nrhareiner

First I think you are confusing a spad bit with a high port bit or correction. They are not one in the same. These bits are not made to be used with contact. They are used as pre signel bits. Meaning that there should be no real contact but rather just moving the waight of the reins will give a signle to the horse along with seat and legs.

These bits are no more tourcher then a snaffle or a bitless bridle when used correctly. Bits are like guns. They do no damage to anything or anyone until the wrong hands pick them up. How a bit is used is more in the hands of the rider then the bit itself.

What PP is doing is just all wrong for what he is trying to do. Again look at the PP video I posted and then go back and look at the other 3 videos I posted and you will see the differance. Out side of Stacys video which she uses no tack. The other 2 are most likely riding these horses at very least with a correction bit.


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## bsms

COWCHICK77 said:


> ...I am curious as to what part "traumatized" you? Maybe I can help you understand.


I'm curious too. I don't advocate a spade bit for most people. You and I had some exchanges a while back that opened my eyes to ANY use of a spade bit, and I'm at least partially converted. I can easily see how a good rider with a trained horse can use a spade bit with no harm whatsoever to the horse.

Sidepull halters are supposed to be gentle, but I've removed a lot of hair from my mare's face when she went into a full-bore panic while using one. I've looked at some 'harsher' options than a simple snaffle for my horse, because if she gets wound up enough, she doesn't think about safety - hers or mine. I would love to someday have her trained to ride flawlessly in anything, but she's a fairly intense girl who thinks every ride should be an adventure.

No way I'd put a spade bit in her mouth. Neither she nor I have any business with one. But we certainly aren't at the pinnacle of horsemanship! Neither is Pat, and I wouldn't suggest a spade bit for his riding either. But that certainly doesn't make a spade bit cruel...


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> View from Europe, that stuff is just inbeleivable. And ABSOLUTELY USELESS.
> If you think Pat Parelli is a poor rider because he doesn't use this, That will make him a far better rider than I thaugt in my mind!
> 
> NB : I looked at Andrea Fappani's website, and it seems he doesn't use it neither?


 
This bit is a traditional spad bit and is ment to be used in a fully finished bridle horse. This is NOT a training bit. This is a finished bit. Used as a pre sigle device.

You will not see these bit used in reining (NRHA) these bit are more a reined cow horse type bit. Again these bits will be used on a fully finished bridle horse. Meaning a horse who is over 5-7 years old. Most older depending on the horse.

Again this bit is no more or less then any other bit. It just gives you more room for signels. I can do just as much damage with a snaffle as I could do with this bit. However it is not about damage or pain. It is about signels and I can give a lighter cue/signel with this bit then I could with a snaffle.


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> First I think you are confusing a spad bit with a high port bit or correction.


I'm not confusing, I know none of them execpt what I've just read on the other topic.


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## bsms

Don't know what bit this guy is using, but it sure isn't a simple snaffle...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## Dame Nuit

bsms said:


> Don't know what bit this guy is using, but it sure isn't a simple snaffle...
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=youtube_gdata_player


He surely use a spanish complet bridle. Did you noticed he always has contact with the horse's mouth?


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> I'm not confusing, I know none of them execpt what I've just read on the other topic.


Then if all you know about this bit and how it is used is by reading one thread on a forum on the net then do not even start judging the bit or its use. These bits have been in use for 100's of years. Again these bits are full bridle bits. If you do not understand what a bridle horse is then go back and educate yourself. It takes YEARS to get there.


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## Dame Nuit

Like this. As you can see, not all that stuff INSIDE the mouth. 

I suppose that's what you can call "culture shock"! :lol:


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> He surely use a spanish complet bridle. Did you noticed he always has contact with the horse's mouth?


He did and he had very quiet hands however he was using his seat and legs to cue the horse more then the bridle.

Keep in mind while this type of contact is exceptable in this type of riding and for english type event. In western events this type of contact is not exceptable. Reining reined cow horse cutting and must other western events are done on a loos rein.


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## bsms

Yes, I noticed. Light contact, amplified thru a leveraged bit.

If someone yanks hard on a spade bit, of course the horse would be hurt. But you don't use those bits on a green horse.

Nor is riding with contact wrong. But the sort of contact Pat was using in the posted video was not good riding. It wasn't cruel, but it wasn't good either. I might ride kind of like that, but I don't sell DVDs on training horses, either. When I post here on riding, I usually explain I'm not a pro anything but XYZ has worked for me. I finally changed my avatar to make my advice clear. But if that is how Pat rides his best trained horse in exhibition, that isn't a real good sign. Maybe he could borrow my avatar...:wink:


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> Like this. As you can see, not all that stuff INSIDE the mouth.
> 
> I suppose that's what you can call "culture shock"! :lol:


Nop not at all. Again there is a DIFFERANCE in how these bits are used. This is the point you are missing. The bit you posted is used with contact. In the wrong hands it can and will do just as much damage as any other bit.


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> Then if all you know about this bit and how it is used is by reading one thread on a forum on the net then do not even start judging the bit or its use. These bits have been in use for 100's of years. Again these bits are full bridle bits. If you do not understand what a bridle horse is then go back and educate yourself. It takes YEARS to get there.


I will certainly not educate myself to that stuff! 
Our traditional equitation too takes years to be mastered. And I'd rather go on that way. 
And I don't want to have my horses taken away from me! :lol: 

Just to say : Pat Parelli has maid part of his ride what we do in Europe. Maybe you find it out of purpose, I can't give you an advice about that. But that's certainly the reason why, in Europe, it's the only one we know about. With Monty Roberts and his join up. 

Because the way he can ride a horse mean something to use. He can do it the same way we do it. 
That's what I see when I compare the different video. :wink:


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## COWCHICK77

Dame Nuit said:


> View from Europe, that stuff is just inbeleivable. And ABSOLUTELY USELESS.
> If you think Pat Parelli is a poor rider because he doesn't use this, That will make him a far better rider than I thaugt in my mind!
> 
> NB : I looked at Andrea Fappani's website, and it seems he doesn't use it neither?


You should open your mind so you can understand what is being said. 

I think you are seeing a picture of a bit and imagining the rider pulling and jerking a horse into position and or submission. Am I right or wrong?

The spade, like nrha said, is the finally result. The horse is trained, there is NO PULLING on this bit. The chin strap is there to help hold it position, not for leverage purposes. Some will tie the reins to the bit with a couple of strands of mane hair as a test, if the hair is broken, then the reins were pulled rather than used to signal and it is time to take a step back in training. Again it is about preserving the mouth.

One of the biggest misconceptions people have with the spade is when they look at a picture, like the one posted above, they see the spoon and think that it is used to dig into the roof of the mouth to get a response from the horse. When in reality there is nothing on that bit about pain, it is about the horse feeling vibration/signals. The bit designed for the comfort of the horse and we take great care in picking a bit that will fit the horses mouth conformation and really overall conformation. The horse HAS to be comfortable with the bit in order for him to pick it up on his own and be relaxed in it.


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> I will certainly not educate myself to that stuff!
> Our traditional equitation too takes years to be mastered. And I'd rather go on that way.
> And I don't want to have my horses taken away from me! :lol:
> 
> Just to say : Pat Parelli has maid part of his ride what we do in Europe. Maybe you find it out of purpose, I can't give you an advice about that. But that's certainly the reason why, in Europe, it's the only one we know about. With Monty Roberts and his join up.
> 
> Because the way he can ride a horse mean something to use. He can do it the same way we do it.
> That's what I see when I compare the different video. :wink:


If you can not see the differance between the way PP is doing a Reining Spin and the way say Shawn is doing a reining spin then I feel for you. Pat is pulling his horses around the spin with its mouth. The horse is so out of fram for the maneuver that she starts to hop. Again a sign of bad training and bad hands. Take a look at Shawn doing the same maneuver the correct way. There is NO contact on the bit. The horse is up and fluid in the movement. He is crossing over correctly with speed and finesse. What I have shown is compairing apples to apples. 

Also Shawn is NOT using a spade bit. Not even quite sure where that came from but oh well. 

The point I am making is that PP passes himself and his training DVDs as something they are not. If the master himself can not train a horse to spin properly yet thinks it is correct enough to show off and try and impress people what does that say for him and his training? All he is trying to do is impress people who do not know any better. He did the same thing when he was trying to get into reining. He went to some po dunk show which was not NRHA or NRCHA sactioned and did some reining and reined cow horse with some of his people and place high at the show then played it off with how good he was and how well hid and his students did in reining and cow horse. At the end of the day they pulled these videos b/c he was getting call out for it. When he actually tried NRHA reining he got schooled big time.


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## COWCHICK77

Dame Nuit said:


> Like this. As you can see, not all that stuff INSIDE the mouth.
> 
> I suppose that's what you can call "culture shock"! :lol:


You are comparing apples to oranges.

You seem pretty concerned about "all that stuff INSIDE the mouth." 
With the spade, the spoon and braces distributes the weight of the bit. It is very comfortable for him to hold, again the bit is *NOT PULLED ON*. He holds it in his mouth and he feels for the vibrations and signals.


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## nrhareiner

Also when you are done showing. Are you required to drop bit to a judge?


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## Dame Nuit

COWCHICK77 said:


> You are comparing apples to oranges.


I didn't post the video! :lol:


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## COWCHICK77

Dame Nuit said:


> I will certainly not educate myself to that stuff!
> Our traditional equitation too takes years to be mastered. And I'd rather go on that way.


It takes years to master what we do too. I am not sure why you feel that your way is so much superior. I have absolutely no problem with the discipline you ride.


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> I didn't post the video! :lol:


CC is talking about the bits posted.

As to the videos. They are apples to apples. That is why I used them.


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## COWCHICK77

Dame Nuit said:


> I didn't post the video! :lol:


You posted the picture of the bridle and that is what I was referring to. You can not compare a shanked bit to a spade bit, two different concepts. That is the point I am trying to get across.


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> The point I am making is that PP passes himself and his training DVDs as something they are not. If the master himself can not train a horse to spin properly yet thinks it is correct enough to show off and try and impress people what does that say for him and his training? All he is trying to do is impress people who do not know any better. He did the same thing when he was trying to get into reining. He went to some po dunk show which was not NRHA or NRCHA sactioned and did some reining and reined cow horse with some of his people and place high at the show then played it off with how good he was and how well hid and his students did in reining and cow horse. At the end of the day they pulled these videos b/c he was getting call out for it. When he actually tried NRHA reining he got schooled big time.


You're wrong on that point. 
If PP DVD had been made to train horses to make spins and sliding stops and so on with horses, then they would have been NO USE for me, as I'm not a westerner. 
What I'm looking for when I use PP DVDs, is how to communicate with the horse, how to improve the relationship, the confidence, the security. 
I have a french instructor for french horsemanship, I don't need PP for that. 

But when a friend of mine buy a horse, and discover after he had baught it that it as been bottle breed, and that he kicks, rears, bolts... I'm happy I know Parelli method so the horse can finally be ridden like any other horse.
That's what I find in Parelli's DVDs.


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## Ian McDonald

I've heard of the rivalry of English vs Western but French vs Western? :]


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> CC is talking about the bits posted.
> 
> As to the videos. They are apples to apples. That is why I used them.


BSM posted this : 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

And that's the reason why I posted the bits pictures.


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## Dame Nuit

Ian McDonald said:


> I've heard of the rivalry of English vs Western but French vs Western? :]


You english-speaking people only know about England in Europe! :lol: 
Other country DO exist! :wink:


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## COWCHICK77

Did you hear the "whoosh" when that comment flew over your head?


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## Dame Nuit

"whoosh"???
maybe I missed something?


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## Ian McDonald

Dame Nuit said:


> You english-speaking people only know about England in Europe! :lol:
> Other country DO exist! :wink:


:shock: They do? I thought it was all EU now. :mrgreen:

I'm just pulling your tail. I have seen some French riding.






Thought I'd throw that out there as a contrast to Pat. ;]


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> You're wrong on that point.
> If PP DVD had been made to train horses to make spins and sliding stops and so on with horses, then they would have been NO USE for me, as I'm not a westerner.
> What I'm looking for when I use PP DVDs, is how to communicate with the horse, how to improve the relationship, the confidence, the security.
> I have a french instructor for french horsemanship, I don't need PP for that.
> 
> But when a friend of mine buy a horse, and discover after he had baught it that it as been bottle breed, and that he kicks, rears, bolts... I'm happy I know Parelli method so the horse can finally be ridden like any other horse.
> That's what I find in Parelli's DVDs.


 
That is fine if all YOU want form PP DVDs is a relationship. However that is not all he is selling. If it was he would not be doing these things at his clinics. He would not be trying to impress others by how well he things he can do these maneuvers.

The fact is that he is using these things to try and impress unknowing people into thinking if they buy his DVDs they too can do reining or Dressage or what ever they want. The fact is that you can not. He has proven this by his riding and his videos.

If what he is selling is simply a relationship then that is what he needs to be showing in his clinics and DVDs. However he would not get the sales if that is all he did.

As a breeder I have never heard the term bottle breed? Are you trying to say that the horse was bottle fed and human raised vs raised in a herd of horses?


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## Dame Nuit

Ian McDonald said:


> I'm just pulling your tail.


So did I. :wink:



Ian McDonald said:


> Thought I'd throw that out there as a contrast to Pat. ;]


Nobody can match the best frenchies! Not even with Cissy the mule! :twisted:


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> As a breeder I have never heard the term bottle breed? Are you trying to say that the horse was bottle fed and human raised vs raised in a herd of horses?


I'm speaking of a horse being orphan at birth, and bottle feed (I suppose that's the correct word :razz since the youngest by human with no other horse around.


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> I'm speaking of a horse being orphan at birth, and bottle feed (I suppose that's the correct word :razz since the youngest by human with no other horse around.


Ok thaght that was what you where trying to say. yes if not done correcty that can be a problem. However can be fixed with little problem by someone knowing what they are doing. These problems are more human related then horse related.


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## kayhmk

Dame Nuit said:


> Just to say : Pat Parelli has maid part of his ride what we do in Europe. Maybe you find it out of purpose, I can't give you an advice about that. But that's certainly the reason why, in Europe, it's the only one we know about.


If that was true, I'd be seriously crying. 

To my eyes the problem (aside from the "pulling a spin" thing) with Pat's riding on the video after the big ball section is that his hands don't mean anything. His contact is not constant nor is it informative for the horse. The horse takes a step, it gets a pull on the bit. The horse stands, and there's that jerk again. The pressure and release come and go without the horse responding to anything -- or having time to do it. His horse gets confused, tries to raise its nose out of the way and hollows out. This all equals to bad hands. 

Compare this to the WE speed test video. The rider held his hand position and rein length through the video except when signalling. The life in the rein came mostly when the horse tucked his nose further back. And the horse moved in a very collected manner, back-to-front.

You can ride Western with a short rein and contact but the jerking motion is not ok. Nor is it in any type of European riding that is acceptable. Hollow backs seem to be the norm in current Dressage, but that doesn't make it okay either. If you think it is and ride that way, your horse should be taken away from you ASAP. Chances are it will, due to injury.

When I watched that PP video, my first thought was "even I ride better". And I'm not all that good. Heck, it took me 11 years of Western to realize what Reining is actually about.  And before you count me as a Westerner: I started out in English style, then hopped over to German style at which point I found Western and Spanish styles. That all garnished with some classical masters (Carde anyone?) and Centered Riding.


----------



## Pegasus1

I think the truth is we can argue on this thread until we are blue in the face, and make no progress. The "opponent" sides come form totally different cultures, and I am not just talking about their attitude to horses. I personally find it difficult to even understand the attitude of folks who carry concealed weapons, but then I don't live in their environment. If I did I may well have a different opinion. The environment where that attitude is needed would probably inform my attitude to all sorts of subjects.

I live in the gentle Shires of the UK. The only guns are the ones licensed for the occasional pheasant shoot and are limited to shotguns. You would never see a gun carried in public on the streets. Even the local police don't have any weapon beyond a truncheon. The most dangerous animal is a Muntjac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  . This is bound to give me a different outlook on life, and what I want from my horses compared with someone who lives in an area where all the criminals carry guns and the wildlife want to eat me. 

These differences are not right or wrong, good or bad, they just are.

It is now up to the OP to sift through all these posts, form an opinion as to where they stand at a cultural level and make a choice. There is enough information on here now for them to form a pretty good idea as to the believe systems of all the participants in the debate . And bearing this in mind they should be able to look at themselves and decide where they fit in.
I am now open to both sides saying "it's not down to culture it's down to good riding/instruction". But the trainer you are going to learn most from is the one that you most enjoy listening to, and can follow for a long period of time. And for me personally I like Pats philosophy on life and the way he handles horses. For others it will just grate.


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## nrhareiner

Pegasus1 said:


> I think the truth is we can argue on this thread until we are blue in the face, and make no progress. The "opponent" sides come form totally different cultures, and I am not just talking about their attitude to horses. I personally find it difficult to even understand the attitude of folks who carry concealed weapons, but then I don't live in their environment. If I did I may well have a different opinion. The environment where that attitude is needed would probably inform my attitude to all sorts of subjects.
> *Not sure how this pertains to the subject at hand. It is my CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO CARRY SO I DO. I do not carry b/c I fear anything.*
> 
> I live in the gentle Shires of the UK. The only guns are the ones licensed for the occasional pheasant shoot and are limited to shotguns.
> *You do know that a shotgun can do more damage then just about any other gun around. The Winchester 1897 was one of the most feared guns by the Germans in WWI. Known as the Trenchgun. *
> 
> You would never see a gun carried in public on the streets. Even the local police don't have any weapon beyond a truncheon. The most dangerous animal is a Muntjac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  . This is bound to give me a different outlook on life, and what I want from my horses compared with someone who lives in an area where all the criminals carry guns and the wildlife want to eat me.
> 
> *I too live in an area with a low crime rate. Why? Probably b/c everyone around here has a gun and knows how to use it.*
> 
> These differences are not right or wrong, good or bad, they just are.
> *This is true even in the US. I have a lot of freinds who do not carry or even own a gun Many others who do. *
> 
> It is now up to the OP to sift through all these posts, form an opinion as to where they stand at a cultural level and make a choice.
> *It has nothing to do with Cultur. It has to do with good training. PP is NOT A GOOD TRAINER. What he is is a good marketer.*
> 
> There is enough information on here now for them to form a pretty good idea as to the believe systems of all the participants in the debate . And bearing this in mind they should be able to look at themselves and decide where they fit in.
> I am now open to both sides saying "it's not down to culture it's down to good riding/instruction". But the trainer you are going to learn most from is the one that you most enjoy listening to, and can follow for a long period of time. And for me personally I like Pats philosophy on life and the way he handles horses. For others it will just grate.


You seem to think that having a CCW is some how translated into crulity and if I do not follow the almighty PP that I am so how curle to my horses. 

AGIAN I ASK. When you show do you have to drop bit to the judges? Does the judge walk all around your horse and look at every inch of them? I really want to know. In YOUR country does anyone do this? I really want to know.


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## Dame Nuit

nrhareiner said:


> AGIAN I ASK. When you show do you have to drop bit to the judges? Does the judge walk all around your horse and look at every inch of them? I really want to know. In YOUR country does anyone do this? I really want to know.


I won't speak for Pegasus because I don't know how it is in England, but in France, the answer is YES! 
They look BEFORE and won't let you in if you tacks are too rude or out of the discipline rule. 
They look AFTER too. 
And when you ride endurance, they will check you while competiting (halt with heart test and locomotions tests by a vet)


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## nrhareiner

Dame Nuit said:


> I won't speak for Pegasus because I don't know how it is in England, but in France, the answer is YES!
> They look BEFORE and won't let you in if you tacks are too rude or out of the discipline rule.
> They look AFTER too.
> And when you ride endurance, they will check you while competiting (halt with heart test and locomotions tests by a vet)


That is great. WE have very set rules as to what can and can not be used and every horse us checked by the bit judge when we leave the arena. If there is so much as a scratch on the horse anywhere you are DQed. I lost over a $1000 one show b/c of a scratch on my mare. Was not even bleading and it took 3 judges about 10 min to find it and make a ruleing. Not sure why as I never did see it but Ok it is their call not mine. Anouther $600 at a reined cow horse show b/c of a scratch on her mouth. Again not bleading but it looked a bit raw. SO DOed and lost first place in 2 classes and a lot of money. Again Ok it is their call.

So no no one is being cruel to our horses. A horse who is sore or hurting does not perform very well. A horse who is scared of you or your aids is not going to perform very well. Heck look at the PP video. His horse is more worried about his hands and aids and it shows.


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## COWCHICK77

Pegasus1 said:


> I think the truth is we can argue on this thread until we are blue in the face, and make no progress. The "opponent" sides come form totally different cultures, and I am not just talking about their attitude to horses. I personally find it difficult to even understand the attitude of folks who carry concealed weapons, but then I don't live in their environment. If I did I may well have a different opinion. The environment where that attitude is needed would probably inform my attitude to all sorts of subjects.
> 
> I live in the gentle Shires of the UK. The only guns are the ones licensed for the occasional pheasant shoot and are limited to shotguns. You would never see a gun carried in public on the streets. Even the local police don't have any weapon beyond a truncheon. The most dangerous animal is a Muntjac - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia  . This is bound to give me a different outlook on life, and what I want from my horses compared with someone who lives in an area where all the criminals carry guns and the wildlife want to eat me.
> 
> These differences are not right or wrong, good or bad, they just are.
> 
> It is now up to the OP to sift through all these posts, form an opinion as to where they stand at a cultural level and make a choice. There is enough information on here now for them to form a pretty good idea as to the believe systems of all the participants in the debate . And bearing this in mind they should be able to look at themselves and decide where they fit in.
> I am now open to both sides saying "it's not down to culture it's down to good riding/instruction". But the trainer you are going to learn most from is the one that you most enjoy listening to, and can follow for a long period of time. And for me personally I like Pats philosophy on life and the way he handles horses. For others it will just grate.


I find it really odd that you assume our culture is the reason, or at least part, that we are not in love with Pat Parelli. You say, [I am now open to both sides saying "it's not down to culture it's down to good riding/instruction".], yet you still felt the need to lead off your post with a speel about cultural differences. That is pretty much like saying "Well bless your heart" as they do in the south.
I get the feeling that you think that us uncivilized westerners are still fighting savage indians, participating in gun fights in the street at high noon and "John Wayne reining" our horses around at a full gallop everywhere we go as if we are all living in a low budget spaghetti western movie.
But believe it or not, we gun toting citizens are no less civilized. (After all, I do know what fork to use at dinner:lolnor do we live in fear of our lives, we are simply prepared to protect it _if_ the occasion arises.


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## bsms

COWCHICK77 said:


> ...(After all, I do know what fork to use at dinner:lolnor do we live in fear of our lives, we are simply prepared to protect it _if_ the occasion arises.


Forks? What are those? *THIS* is all I need for gettin' me some grub...good for gettin' my horse's attention, too!










Good for pickin' my teeth, too.


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## Pegasus1

Thanks for the reply nrhareiner. I was just quietly trying to point out that different cultural backgrounds will produce different like and dislikes in training styles. I think your reply reinforces my point.
The checks you have to go through to get a shotgun in the UK are so stringent you'd be amazed. Police visits to your house to see where you will store it, police background checks on you, references from reputable people as to your sanity. I probably see a gun around once a year in my area. Shot Gun Applications - Metropolitan Police Service .

Not sure why it being your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to carry a gun means you have to carry one. Does the constitution forbid not bearing arms ?
I actually have a right to graze my cattle (if I had any) on the local common, but I didn't go out and buy a cow to exercise that right.

I do not think not following PP means you are cruel and have never, nor would ever imply that. I have no knowledge of how you treat your horses, as you have none about how I do mine. There are many trainers to follow and I take notice of them all. Following or not following one is not an indicator of cruelty.

Yes British equestrianism has very strict ethical standards, but I am sad to say that at some minor shows they are not always adhered to as strictly as they should be. But then I hear the same happens occasionally in the US as well. It is up to ethical horsemen to complain vigorously to the judges if they see any wrongdoing going on.

And your comment that PP is not a good trainer is just an opinion. Other very experienced horsemen on this forum have said that they think he is a good trainer. You are entitled to your opinion, but then so are they. 
As for the marketing, at least even you think he does some things well  .


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## SouthernTrails

Pegasus1 said:


> Not sure why it being your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to carry a gun means you have to carry one. Does the constitution forbid not bearing arms ?


Mod Note: This Thread is under heading of Natural Horsemanship and about 2 trainers.

Knock Off the Gun Issues........... 

.


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## BBBCrone

I saw earlier in the thread someone state that CA studied under PP...sorry, but that is incorrect. Here's is CA' history.

Born and raised in Australia, Clinton grew up with a love of horses. Although he lived in the city with his father, Rob, mother, Cheryl, and sister, Andrea, he looked forward to the weekends he got to spend on his grandparent's farm where his grandmother would give him rides on her old Thoroughbred mare. By the age of 12, he began playing polocrosse and was eventually chosen for a national team representing his state. 

When he was 13, he met Gordon McKinlay, a horseman and clinician who would change his life, and ultimately set Clinton on his career path. After attending one of Gordon's clinics where he learned how to do the groundwork and riding exercises that now make up the basis of the Method, Clinton began a two-year apprenticeship with the revered horseman. Under Gordon's expert guidance, Clinton started and trained over 600 horses, many of which were rank brumbies from the Outback. 

Apprenticeship with Ian Francis
At age 17, Clinton graduated Gordon's apprenticeship and began working for Ian Francis, a three-time National Cutting Horse Association Futurity Champion and five-time National Reining Horse Association Futurity Champion. While the focus of Gordon's program was on safety for horse and rider and starting colts, Clinton looked to Ian for his ability to get a horse soft and supple and ready to compete on a national level. Clinton worked steadily with Ian for a year and then used his knowledge and expertise to open his own training facility in Rockhampton. 

Clinton continued running his training barn and teaching clinics until coming to the United States in 1996 for a brief apprenticeship with Al Dunning, winner of multiple American Quarter Horse Association World Championships. Clinton then returned to Australia and his training horse business where he won the first go and placed third in the 1997 Australian National Reining Horse Association Futurity on his mare Mindy.



So whoever said he came to the states and studied under PP was mistaken, it was under Al Dunning.


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## Padrona

The carrot stick is not just a buggy whip with a different name. Whips are thin and flexible, they typically have a lash of some sort at the end, and they are made to sting if you need to crack a horse with them. The carrot stick is thick and quite heavy. The string on the end is made of yacht rope and is fairly thick so it cannot lash or sting a horse. You cannot flick the carrot stick at the horse and "pop" them like you can with a whip. Also the carrot stick doesn't make quite the whizzing or whooshing noise that a whip does when you move it through the air. The carrot stick is not intended to be used like a whip either. 

I own carrot sticks, kid sticks (smaller version of the carrot stick), traditional dressage whips of different weights and lengths, a traditional driving whip, and a traditional lunge whip. They are all different with different uses and properties.

To say a carrot stick is the same as a buggy whip is like saying a Corvette and a Chevy 4x4 diesel are the same thing since they both have engines, steering wheels, and tires.......:shock:

Some properties may be the same, but other properties are different. There are a thousand different types of toilet paper with different properties, depending on what you prefer. To say one is better than the other is kind of a waste of time. Depends on what you like, and how you use it, as to which brand and style you end up buying. 

When you use a traditional whip, it is too easy to lose your patients and "flick" the horse, or "pop" him when he doesn't respond. Or it can be done accidentally as well. A carrot stick is far more difficult to do this with. The weight and size of it, makes it difficult to manuever through the air quick enough to pop the horse with it and sting him. Sure you could abuse a horse with a carrot stick, but under normal applications, the size and weight of it makes it more difficult to be used as a snappy little discipline tool. You tend to use it more as an extention of your arm because it feels more like your arm than a thin little whip does.


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## Nokotaheaven

Padrona said:


> The carrot stick is not just a buggy whip with a different name. Whips are thin and flexible, they typically have a lash of some sort at the end, and they are made to sting if you need to crack a horse with them. The carrot stick is thick and quite heavy. The string on the end is made of yacht rope and is fairly thick so it cannot lash or sting a horse. You cannot flick the carrot stick at the horse and "pop" them like you can with a whip. Also the carrot stick doesn't make quite the whizzing or whooshing noise that a whip does when you move it through the air. The carrot stick is not intended to be used like a whip either.
> 
> I own carrot sticks, kid sticks (smaller version of the carrot stick), traditional dressage whips of different weights and lengths, a traditional driving whip, and a traditional lunge whip. They are all different with different uses and properties.
> 
> To say a carrot stick is the same as a buggy whip is like saying a Corvette and a Chevy 4x4 diesel are the same thing since they both have engines, steering wheels, and tires.......:shock:
> 
> Some properties may be the same, but other properties are different. There are a thousand different types of toilet paper with different properties, depending on what you prefer. To say one is better than the other is kind of a waste of time. Depends on what you like, and how you use it, as to which brand and style you end up buying.
> 
> When you use a traditional whip, it is too easy to lose your patients and "flick" the horse, or "pop" him when he doesn't respond. Or it can be done accidentally as well. A carrot stick is far more difficult to do this with. The weight and size of it, makes it difficult to manuever through the air quick enough to pop the horse with it and sting him. Sure you could abuse a horse with a carrot stick, but under normal applications, the size and weight of it makes it more difficult to be used as a snappy little discipline tool. You tend to use it more as an extention of your arm because it feels more like your arm than a thin little whip does.


That is VERY well put 
I've also actually tried using the carrot stick like a whip, i mean to see if i can flick it and get it to do the snap (not on horses or when im around any btw).. It is very hard to do, and with it's weight it swings more so it actually has a less harsh affect than a whip. It doesn't even snap half as loud as typical whips


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## nikyplushbreyer

a carrot stick is an exertion of your arm not to whip the horse like clinton does but pat he uses it like it really was his arm


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## Nokotaheaven

After seeing all this about Clinton & Pat, I really honestly don't see why people say Clinton is great and Pat is terrible... They're both trainers and are good at what they do... Though I prefer pat


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## gypsygirl

nikyplushbreyer said:


> a carrot stick is an exertion of your arm not to whip the horse like clinton does but pat he uses it like it really was his arm


lol what ?


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## nikyplushbreyer

Nokotaheaven said:


> After seeing all this about Clinton & Pat, I really honestly don't see why people say Clinton is great and Pat is terrible... They're both trainers and are good at what they do... Though I prefer pat


i agree besides clinton is so much more famous and has no time for as many people out there i mean he has a TV show that is more than 1/2 about how stuff is made and pat is so much more flexible and does classes as well so that you can get the real experience but clint doesn't. this is just my opinion not trying to offend anyone


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> i agree besides clinton is so much more famous and has no time for as many people out there i mean he has a TV show that is more than 1/2 about how stuff is made and pat is so much more flexible and does classes as well so that you can get the real experience but clint doesn't. this is just my opinion not trying to offend anyone


Would not give you a plug nickle for either. However at least CA can ride and he is a proven trainer. Where PP can not ride and it not a proven trainer. PP would make a great used car salesman.


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## jaydee

They are both well known because they are very good at marketing and selling themselves
That does not essentially mean they are any better than the thousands of other people out there who are just quietly getting on with their job of producing fantastic horses that people can just get on and ride if they are willing to spend the money to get that and not look for something cheap that they convince themselves they will be able to work with and end up needing to go to videos and Youtube to get advice when they are totally out of their depth


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## Nokotaheaven

nrhareiner said:


> Would not give you a plug nickle for either. However at least CA can ride and he is a proven trainer. Where PP can not ride and it not a proven trainer. PP would make a great used car salesman.


Thats kind of rude...


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## Nokotaheaven

How many people do you know can ride one horse and work with two other horsesat liberty at the SAME time hmm?


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## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> Thats kind of rude...



How is that rude? I would not give a plug nickle for either and you can watch videos of PP and you can see he can not ride and has never proven he can train a horse in the real world. At least CA has.

And yes PP would make a great used car salesman. I know a lot of car salesman so I think I know what it takes and he would be very good at it.


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## Nokotaheaven

nrhareiner said:


> How is that rude? I would not give a plug nickle for either and you can watch videos of PP and you can see he can not ride and has never proven he can train a horse in the real world. At least CA has.
> 
> And yes PP would make a great used car salesman. I know a lot of car salesman so I think I know what it takes and he would be very good at it.


Because claiming someone cannot ride like that is. And he has proven it. Many times. And, if you watch the video you'll see he's riding AND controlling four horses at liberty.

And here's a question, have you proven you can ride and train? Do you have umpteen followers studying your methods? Did you ever ride broncs for a living?


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## Wanstrom Horses

Nokotaheaven said:


> How many people do you know can ride one horse and work with two other horsesat liberty at the SAME time hmm?
> Pat Parelli ,OH - YouTube


I don't fine this impressive, nor even useful. All I see, again is a guy you can't ride trotting some horses around to drippy music. Yes I agree with NRA, I do think PP would make a great car salesman, I think he should look into that. The thing about PP is if you took those horses out to try and get something done with them, it wouldn't happen. I've tried. Little showy arena exercises are fine and dandy and look nice, but I guarantee you if I tried to go out and put those horses to work in the real world, I could not get anything done on them, they wouldn't know what to you. If Pat was out there getting something done with his horses in a work related environment, and could ride a stick horse. That would be different..


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## Wanstrom Horses

Nokotaheaven said:


> Because claiming someone cannot ride like that is. And he has proven it. Many times. And, if you watch the video you'll see he's riding AND controlling four horses at liberty.
> 
> And here's a question, have you proven you can ride and train? Do you have umpteen followers studying your methods? Did you ever ride broncs for a living?


And the sad part is he CAN'T ride. I've watched him ride at a horse expo once doing some clinic. He couldn't ride a stick horse to the well.


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## nrhareiner

You mean like this??






Hay look no tack and the other horse does not get way from her. Go figure.


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## nrhareiner

You mean like this??






Hay look no tack and the other horse does not get way from her. Go figure.


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## Nokotaheaven

Yup. And I also follow Stacy Westfall. I like her riding, but I have one of her training videos and don't agree with it at all. Yes she can ride, doesn't mean Pat can't. And also you seem to have avoided my questions on wether or not you could do stuff like that...


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## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> Because claiming someone cannot ride like that is. And he has proven it. Many times. And, if you watch the video you'll see he's riding AND controlling four horses at liberty.
> 
> And here's a question, have you proven you can ride and train? Do you have umpteen followers studying your methods? Did you ever ride broncs for a living?


Where? All he has proven is that he can not ride but he can get a horse to do tricks. That is all this is is a bunch of tricks. He has tried to show in NRHA and can not get it done.


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## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> Yup. And I also follow Stacy Westfall. I like her riding, but I have one of her training videos and don't agree with it at all. Yes she can ride, doesn't mean Pat can't. And also you seem to have avoided my questions on wether or not you could do stuff like that...



See that pic in my Avatar? I think that is all the proof I need. They do not give those out as participation.


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## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> Yup. And I also follow Stacy Westfall. I like her riding, but I have one of her training videos and don't agree with it at all. Yes she can ride, doesn't mean Pat can't. And also you seem to have avoided my questions on wether or not you could do stuff like that...


You do not have to agree with it. However what she does has been proven to work. She trains horses and then takes them and puts it out there against her piers and in front of impartial judges. PP tried that a few times and failed big time.


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## Wanstrom Horses

^^ I agree. The main reason Pat can't make it in the reining world, is because he's got a seat like a sack of bricks, and he plows around on his horses heads. So he settles for marketing trick training under that name of horsemanship.


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## Nokotaheaven

Nope. Actually if I can find a video of it, one time for a trailer loading seminar he just played with the horse for the whole seminar... And with 5mins left he walked up to the trailer and the horse jumped right in no problem. The horse before hand would not load for anybody


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## Wanstrom Horses

Nokotaheaven said:


> Nope. Actually if I can find a video of it, one time for a trailer loading seminar he just played with the horse for the whole seminar... And with 5mins left he walked up to the trailer and the horse jumped right in no problem. The horse before hand would not load for anybody


I had a call once to come load a mare into a trailer for a lady that had not been loaded for two years, because nobody could even get her within ten feet of the trailer door. I had her loading in a two horse trailer in five minutes. It isn't a big deal, trailer loading is easy stuff..


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## nrhareiner

Wanstrom Horses said:


> I had a call once to come load a mare into a trailer for a lady that had not been loaded for two years, because nobody could even get her within ten feet of the trailer door. I had her loading in a two horse trailer in five minutes. It isn't a big deal, trailer loading is easy stuff..



I agree teaching a horse to load it not that hard. My stallion has 5 fused vertebra from being cross tied as a baby and beaten in a trailer. When I got him he would not even look at a trainer with out running backwards. Did not take me very long to teach him to load.


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## Nokotaheaven

I do agree that it's not hard. I find it fun actually.
And the whole point of what he does, I know because I've done it myself, is to find the root of the issue and find something interesting that'll take the horse's mind off of the scary things while fixing them. With his horse Magic, the first time he rode her she was nervous and couldn't keep her feet still.. So he thought 'Okay, you can't keep your feet still? I'll make this fun and turn it into something you can learn.' You know that dance he does on her? That's what he turned it into.


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## nrhareiner

Nokotaheaven said:


> I do agree that it's not hard. I find it fun actually.
> And the whole point of what he does, I know because I've done it myself, is to find the root of the issue and find something interesting that'll take the horse's mind off of the scary things while fixing them. With his horse Magic, the first time he rode her she was nervous and couldn't keep her feet still.. So he thought 'Okay, you can't keep your feet still? I'll make this fun and turn it into something you can learn.' You know that dance he does on her? That's what he turned it into.


And this is different then any proven trainer with a 2yo?? The fact is that what he has taught her is not correct. He has one video where he is turning the mare like a reining horse. He is in her face with a death grip pulling her around and the turn is incorrect.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Yes NRA is correct. He yanks on that horses mouth to no tomorrow. And you know wht teaching that horse to dance was?? A training bandaid because he didn't know correctly how to keep that horses feet still. So he turned it into a trick and marketed it. And I can't stand riding those PP horses that are trained to do that dance, because all it is, is a controlled, nervous prance. Once again, not impressive in the least..


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## Remali

I don't really care for either one, but if I had to pick one I would choose Pat. Seen CA haul on the reins way too much and he just seemed to like to wack the crap out of his horse. Also saw another well-known natural horsemanship "trainer" ride a horse nearly into the ground until the horse was staggering and almost fell down, I was getting up from my seat to go file a complaint with the horse expo about it when the jerk finally let the poor horse stop and rest. Not real trainers in my opinion.


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## Wanstrom Horses

^ I'm with you. I'd choose neither though. I think they are almost both on the same level.


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## Remali

I got caught up on reading this thread, took me little awhile. LOL.

About the bits and the discussion on the spade bit, etc., a few pages back. Someone had mentioned they use those types of bits to achieve softness and relaxation; yet, you can achieve softness and relaxation with a snaffle too, so I am rather confused as to why the need for so much hardware in a horse's mouth. Softness and flexion at the poll are achieved from the hindquarters with the use of seat and legs, and not with the hands/bit.


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## smrobs

The reason for that much "hardware" on a spade is for communication purposes. Once the horse learns to carry the bit properly and if they've been trained properly, then all the extras on the spade just make it easier for the horse to feel the cue from the reins...so that means less cue.

Where you might have to apply 8 ounces of contact in a snaffle, you can pick the slack out of a rein in a spade and get a better response. Not because it hurts, but because they can feel the nuances of what you're asking for.

Oh, and the spade isn't used to "achieve" softness and relaxation. The horse learns that while in the snaffle and bosal stages. If a horse in a spade still needs to learn softness and relaxation, then they aren't anywhere ready for the spade and that's a failure on the trainer's part.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Smrobs has got it. The level of response is amazing in a true bridle horse. My finished horses move and give their whole body to the slight lift of a rein. They are a pre signal bit. Even the lightest signals on the reins, seat and legs will be felt by the horse. Snaffles work off the bars of the mouth, that's it. A true bridle horse has nothing to do with hardware, but of a long, special process of getting a horse that light. I started a thread on bridle horses, titled "Old School Horse Training Approach" if you would like to get a little better understanding.


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## Wanstrom Horses

Here's the link: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/old-school-horse-training-approach-148455/


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## COWCHICK77

Remali said:


> I got caught up on reading this thread, took me little awhile. LOL.
> 
> About the bits and the discussion on the spade bit, etc., a few pages back. Someone had mentioned they use those types of bits to achieve softness and relaxation; yet, you can achieve softness and relaxation with a snaffle too, so I am rather confused as to why the need for so much hardware in a horse's mouth. Softness and flexion at the poll are achieved from the hindquarters with the use of seat and legs, and not with the hands/bit.



Thank you smrobs and Wanstrom.

I did not say that the bits themselves is what creates a soft mouth or a relaxed jaw but rather this style of training is very much about the preservation of the mouth and softness. In order to have softness and the jaw relaxed the body behind has to be soft and with that comes proper training. The horse must have a soft mouth and relaxed jaw in order to feel the signals well. There is absolutely no advantage to using a spade bit improperly by pulling on it like Dame nutwit was insinuating.


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## nikyplushbreyer

guys stop fighting is it giving you anything are you gaining anything rom it?


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## smrobs

Hmm, now that certain members (those who were making wild generalizations and bashing other members) have left the thread, I see no fighting, just the continuation of an educated discussion/debate.


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## Remali

OK. I see what you mean now about bits. I think it boils down to how a person rides/was taught, etc. I use my seat and legs mainly. But I do get where you are coming from. I rode my horses with a Dr Bristol snaffle (similar to a French link), as well as a low port curb (depending on if I was doing dressage or western pleasure), I never had to use more pressure with the snaffle. I do imagine it depends on how you train your horse too, mine were all trained to respond to leg and seat cues, not so much the bit. My horses were light as a feather in the bridle.


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## bsms

This may backfire, but let me jump in and give an explanation as someone who has never used a spade bit and never will...not too sure I'll ever graduate to a leveraged bit, and no way I'll ever be ready for a spade. But...

See the bit below:










The spade part is not gouging into the roof of the mouth. It is resting between the tongue and pallet. The reins are attached at the end of the levers, which amplify any movement of the reins.

Given a bit like that, it is reasonable that the horse can feel and respond to vibrations on his tongue instead of pressure on the bars? If, of course, he had been gradually introduced and taught to listen to vibrations on his tongue.

To me, that sounds reasonable. There is a lot of stuff resting on the tongue, and it makes sense that it would be very easy for the horse to feel it.

The mistake is to assume, as I used to, that the idea was that you could use all that hardware to punish the horse for disobedience. If you are thinking that way, then spade bits are not for you - you generic, not any individual on this thread.

If a bit is for communication, then all that stuff might be able to act as an amplifier in the mouth - but an amplifier based on having a large area of contact and with lots of things that vibrate rather than amplifying by putting extra pressure on the bars.

If I'm wrong, I apologize to all. That is how one person who has never held a spade bit is trying to understand its use. Feel free to correct me so I can learn.

If I'm right, it is arguably a gentler bit than what I'm currently using with Mia (Internet pic, this is NOT Mia nor how I use it either):










Edit to add Mia...I'm currently using this on the little ring below the big ring. She seems relaxed so far:


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## Wanstrom Horses

You got a fair idea bsms, I think the old-timers that originally created the true spade bit, made it intimidating, and "scary" to the novice, uneducated rider. So they don't just pop it in their horse's mouth to look cool. But uf used correctly, on a horse that is trained to carry it. It is one of the mildest bits around. It doesn't really fit into the leverage category of bits. Leverage bits work off the curb strap, the spade is a category in itself. It works like no other bit in the transfer of signals, with vibrations, slight shifts and movement of the chains to many different points in the horses mouth. And the signals are never painful if used correctly.


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## WSArabians

For two guys that go the calm, natural route, they sure do have a knack for starting controversy. 
:lol:


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## nikyplushbreyer

nrhareiner said:


> Would not give you a plug nickle for either. However at least CA can ride and he is a proven trainer. Where PP can not ride and it not a proven trainer. PP would make a great used car salesman.


pp is the trainer of my horse and his method works really well and my horse doesn't kick bit or anything like that anymore so maybe he didn't work for you but it worked for me and PAT is older than CLINT so pat has more experience. think before you type please


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## Saranda

> PAT is older than CLINT so pat has more experience


That is not a valid argument, sorry. Being older has nothing to do with presenting skills superior to those of younger professionals, and vice versa. Besides, more experience means nothing if there are skills lacking to use this experience.


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## jaydee

Nokotaheaven said:


> How many people do you know can ride one horse and work with two other horsesat liberty at the SAME time hmm?
> Pat Parelli ,OH - YouTube


Any ranch hand thats worked with cattle can do this, horses are herd animals and the stallion or alpha mare will 'round up' other horses with no training from humans at all - its instinct. The Mongolians were probably one of the earliest people to work horses like this - they probably watched their behaviour in the wild and realised they could harness the ability to their advantage
You'll see this sort of stuff in circus acts all over the world - they've been amazing the crowds with it for hundreds of years
PP is in an enclosed ring - Honza Blaha (see video below) has more horses and is out on open land
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5ZmDkhqhW8


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## tailskidwest

All interesting comments, but take a hard look at both PP and CA and start asking why they do what they do. Look for hard facts based on scientific findings in horse behavior and physical limitations and you'll soon be able to sort the marketing from the training. For example, a classic CA comment "why did I do that ...... because I can!" What does that teach anyone? Another CA special ... "you can't bend and flex your horse too much". Oh yes you can .... I spent 5 days fixing a CA horse that would slam on the brakes and just stand there everytime you tried to bend his head. Any fool can bend a horses head around at the stand still. Getting the horse to give its head willingly at speed is some real training. Take a hard look at the early training ideas and ask how many of those behaviours will I have to "unteach" later. Like PP tell folks to push on the hip bone to get the horse to move its hind quarters over. I don't know about you but I have a heck of a time getting my heel that high while in the saddle! And how about if you drag your heal over the horses butt while mounting? Not when I want some past training to kick in and have the horse move his butt! And of course the teach the horse to back by pushing/tapping/cueing his chest ...... sorry my reins don't go to the chest. The biggest thing I don't see from either one is proper use of the riders legs and weight shift in the saddle. Anyway, to each their own, but take a look at the original clinictian, Monte Foreman, the hard research and slow motion films he pioneered and the training program he initiated and compare this to what is currently on the market.


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## Dame Nuit

jaydee said:


> Any ranch hand thats worked with cattle can do this, horses are herd animals and the stallion or alpha mare will 'round up' other horses with no training from humans at all - its instinct. The Mongolians were probably one of the earliest people to work horses like this - they probably watched their behaviour in the wild and realised they could harness the ability to their advantage
> You'll see this sort of stuff in circus acts all over the world - they've been amazing the crowds with it for hundreds of years
> PP is in an enclosed ring - Honza Blaha (see video below) has more horses and is out on open land
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5ZmDkhqhW8


Honza Blaha is a former Parelli student! :mrgreen:

_Honza bought his first own horse called Gaston. He studied Natural Horsemanship with Pat Parelli and after discovering the possibility of teaching horses without reins he challenged his teachers and went his own way._


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## bsms

I think the point is that it isn't a big deal. If I rode my lead mare out of the corral, and left the gate open, I'm pretty sure all 3 horses would go on a trail ride together. Not because I'm some super trainer, or trained them at all. It is NORMAL for them to want to stay with the lead horse. Goodness knows, the geldings don't like being left behind!:wink:

Folks have done that sort of things in circuses for several hundred years.


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## nrhareiner

nikyplushbreyer said:


> pp is the trainer of my horse
> *So you had PP himself train your horse? Really? Would not let him swing a leg over one of mine if HE PAID ME.*
> 
> 
> and his method works really well and my horse doesn't kick bit or anything like that anymore
> *Even a blind squirrel can find a acorn ever once in a while. *
> 
> so maybe he didn't work for you but it worked for me
> *Like I have stated before. I do not need PP to get a horse to work properly. He "Games" and "Program" is so flawed that it is not worth using. For every one horse/owner that PP may work for I can show you 10 that it does not and the horses are worse off then when they started.*
> 
> 
> and PAT is older than CLINT so pat has more experience. think before you type please



Like has been stated. Age plays no role when it comes to abilities. 
If PP is better then CA then why since PP has tried to show NRHA does he not have more earnings then CA? I mean if they both show NRHA and PP is better then CA then it stands to reason that PP would have more earnings then CA right?


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## jaydee

Dame Nuit said:


> Honza Blaha is a former Parelli student! :mrgreen:
> 
> _Honza bought his first own horse called Gaston. He studied Natural Horsemanship with Pat Parelli and after discovering the possibility of teaching horses without reins he challenged his teachers and went his own way._


Maybe tell me something I dont already know?
My point is that anyone can do this if they put their mind to it and want to do it
Blaha is now light years ahead of Parelli and makes him look like a rank amateur in comparison
You could join any circus and learn how to do this stuff with horses - none of it is new, this is an old clip from around the 50's 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY9i--O0guk
All very cute but what real purpose does it serve in terms of everyday riding
Do these horses really enjoy doing this stuff?
The PP stuff is now being labelled as 'natural' and yet circus horse training was always under scrutiny of cruelty being involved


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## nrhareiner

bsms said:


> I think the point is that it isn't a big deal. If I rode my lead mare out of the corral, and left the gate open, I'm pretty sure all 3 horses would go on a trail ride together. Not because I'm some super trainer, or trained them at all. It is NORMAL for them to want to stay with the lead horse. Goodness knows, the geldings don't like being left behind!:wink:
> 
> Folks have done that sort of things in circuses for several hundred years.



This is very true. If you have a herd of horses who do not want to move or come int. You do not have to catch them all or herd them all. Just go catch or herd the lead mare. All the others will follow.

This is not a new concept. It is as old as horses themselves.

As for as getting a horse to follow like PP was doing. Again not all that hard. He was not getting the horse to work together like what you see in Stacy video I posted. Watch the 2 again. When PP changes directions he forces the horse into the lead change as he uses his horse to force the other horse to go the other way. Now go and watch Stacys video. When she asks for a lead change both directions the horses do it the same time and change leads before they change direction which is how it should be. Where in PP video the horse changes direction before they change leads.


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## COWCHICK77

Nokotaheaven said:


> How many people do you know can ride one horse and work with two other horsesat liberty at the SAME time hmm?
> Pat Parelli ,OH - YouTube



Well h3ll, I must be a super star if I can gather a few hundred cattle by myself and put them where I want them. Or gather almost a hundred head of saddle horses in the morning before its light. 
This video demonstrates pretty basic stockmanship by using the balance point on the animal to direct what direction you want it to go, this no new feat of horsemanship. 
I think this one of the things that really irritate me, taking basic horse/stockmanship and turning into something *majikal* for folks who don't know any better.
Just proves the point about that it is all about the marketing...


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## Wanstrom Horses

^ i so agree!! its irks me to no end.. we have been doing it out here for hundreds of years!


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## Jolly Badger

COWCHICK77 said:


> Well h3ll, I must be a super star if I can gather a few hundred cattle by myself and put them where I want them. Or gather almost a hundred head of saddle horses in the morning before its light.
> This video demonstrates pretty basic stockmanship by using the balance point on the animal to direct what direction you want it to go, this no new feat of horsemanship.
> I think this one of the things that really irritate me, taking basic horse/stockmanship and turning into something *majikal* for folks who don't know any better.
> Just proves the point about that it is all about the marketing...


^^yeah, this! ^^

I used to teach at a summer camp where many of the kids knew which horses were "boss" in the herd, and which ones were "followers." It doesn't require $500 worth of DVDs to figure that out.

You just have to pay attention.

Turn off the TV.

Go outside.

Spend some time interacting with your horses. There's nothing "majikal" about it.


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## bayhorse1221

Hi. I'm new and registered just to reply to this thread. I know my post, as an unknown user, will probably lack credentials with you guys as you all seem pretty familiar with each other. :lol: I'll just say, about myself, I've made my living as a "fixer" of problem horses, of all disciplines, and I have sat a lot of horses. I'm not a big name trainer, I sure wouldn't win money in the NRHA, but I'm effective at what I do and have been quite successful helping people, that are having a hard time, enjoy their horses. 

That said, whenever I'm been called to help people with their equine issues, I have to go with whatever training they've been attempting to apply. I take time to listen to the owners to see what they've been watching, seeing, thinking, doing, etc. Then I try to set it up for them to transfer that to their horse in a meaningful way. 

As related to this thread, Parelli vs. Downunder, I've noticed this about the owners that I have worked with:

The people that have chosen Downunder tend to be more aggressive than the Parelli folk. They have more of a "horse, you will listen to ME" attitude, and can be quick to blame the horse for the failure of communication. It can be difficult to get them to see that they're often in the wrong position for the action they're wanting. It can take a bit for them to understand that the horse is doing what he thinks is asked and being punished for it. Makes their horses a quivering mess when applied inappropriately. I've also worked with several that specifically chose Clinton Anderson because they felt he advocated starting out their new approach in a bridle...they were directly opposed to riding in a halter, period, and had all sorts of justification for that. :wink:

On to Parelli - the cult mentality certainly prevails there!!! LOL (I showed up to help a lady wearing "Savvy socks", I kid you not.:lol They're usually the opposite of the Anderson folk. They're normally way to quick to think they're applying technique in the wrong manner. Horse will act like a brat a few times, they give him a cookie, and head to the house to watch a video to see what they've done wrong. All the while their horse is hanging out in the pasture with his buddies having a nice, lazy life. LOL Most of the problems I see with the Parelli training is rewarding a horse at the wrong time, thereby teaching him incorrect responses, at best, and reinforcing disrespectful or dangerous behavior at its worst. 

After speaking to so many of the people that follow "training kits", another similarity shows up...that is an underlying, often unspoken, feeling that they're not good enough, or their goals are not big enough, to seek help from a qualified, successful trainer. Or, they've gone that route and felt intimidated in that environment, or not accepted, or never good enough, or whatever, and that's where people really love being a part of the Parelli's or whoever. They belong to that group, and it can be life changing for them, so they can get pretty danged defensive about that. LOL (I've witnessed, on this thread, you guys get pretty heated about an offensive comment towards your disciplines, tack, political views, etc., so you should know how that goes...)

Just my observations. The people I work with are just normal, everyday owners that (usually) have realistic goals for their horsemanship. And, it must be said, that they were having problems with applying the programs, so these are not the stellar success stories that I know are out there...I've seen amazing transformations using both programs! Truly amazing! And, that's all anyone wants, right? To see horses and riders doing amazing things, in harmony with each other, right?


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## bayhorse1221

deleted...


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## COWCHICK77

Bayhorse1221, what do you think the success to failure rate would be for both trainers, in your experience?


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## bayhorse1221

Success is a relative term, so thought I'd lay out what I've seen with that in mind. (Glad that blizzard past through yesterday so I'd have an excuse to sit around, trying to figure out how to define success rate. :lol

Dropout rate: Parelli. Parelli seems to get everyone all worked into a fervor, all excited to get started and become awesome horseman, and then...reality. I see more owners that buy all the products, join the group, etc, and in two years are no longer following the program. Sometimes they continue with another trainer or sometimes they just have pasture pets.

Transformation, of both horse and rider: Parelli. The students that have continued on, through the higher levels of Parelli, make bigger transformations in themselves, as well as with their horses. They may not go on to be competitive riders, but they are normally students that would not have made it in a more traditional horse environment. People that would have simply gone trail riding and that's it, happy with walking along and maybe trotting, doing flying changes or jumping obstacles bareback is success to me. A lot of the Downunder students that I see, that are successful, would have succeeded regardless of the program they chose, they often just needed a direction to be pointed.

Going on to competitive disciplines: Downunder. Hands down on this one. The Downunder folk are more likely to participate in competitive events after getting a foundation with Clint. The Parelli followers that I know, that are in higher levels, seem content with staying inside the Parelli realm of things, and haven't tried to apply what they know in that arena. 

Biggest failure of program I have witnessed: Parelli!!! Twice, two different episodes. First one - an extremely talented young lady I knew, that worked exclusively with difficult horses, volunteered to take a young mare through the Parelli program for the owner. The mare actually wasn't difficult with this rider and progressed very quickly so the owner signed them up for a four day clinic with a certified instructor. The whole thing was on tape, which I later watched and it was pretty bad. The instructor could not see what the rider was doing to establish confidence in the mare, and continually insisted that the duo speed up, slow down, tighten the rein, do this, do that, etc., until the rider excused herself from the clinic. After the clinic, she talked with the instructor, respectfully and politely, and was met with rude, hard headed "my way or the highway" attitude. The instructor advised the owner that the mare looked safe for the owner to ride...long story short, one month later the owner was in the ER with some broken bones, the instructor had been tossed twice and was saying the horse needed to be sent to a "horse specialist". This was second hand for me, so I couldn't tell him that the horse was with a horse specialist and he was too blind to see it, as she didn't have Parelli tattooed on her bum..,:lol: Second big fail: also a very talented rider and incompetent instructor, again certified. Rider was very natural with horses but had never had formal lessons, just grew up horseback in a rodeo family. I'm pretty sure this young lady could have done every trick in the Parelli book when she started but one year later she was second-guessing herself, would just not ride for long periods, only watched Parelli...did not enjoy horses anymore. I went to church with her, and asked her to go for a ride with me and one of my young horses - she actually looked scared to death to go riding! This was a woman that I had seen, a few years before, laughing and joking about a spoiled, silly filly trying to pitch her for an hour. :shock:

So, just some things I've seen. Should be noted that I've worked with more Parelli-ers, because of where I have lived (Ft. Worth and Colorado, particularly) and because I started seeing them crop up way back in '99. Both of the fail incidences happened in the early 2000's. Finally said more than my $.02 and can get back to work! LOL


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## bayhorse1221

That was a good question, Cowchick.


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## COWCHICK77

Thanks for the well thought out answer bayhorse!

I have to give kudos and respect for all those able to train for the public. 
It seems that being a trainer for the public is like the clean up person, you kinda come along sweep up all the broken pieces and try to put them back together.

I used to(a long time ago) take on a few horses in the summer to ride and gave it up out of frustration. I could make the horses right again, but not the people. And the Parelli-ites were the worst of them, just from my experience.


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