# Now I've heard everything...



## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Well...it does ........the mouth of the rider....horse head cannot make contact with face/mouth of rider with martingale.....:twisted:


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

I think in certain circumstances it could. Would it help if a rider is very heavy handed or who uses the reins for balance? Instead of all their weight on the poor horses mouth, it would be somewhat deflected by the reins.

No evidence to support this. It's just a thought as to why someone would think so.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

LOL I suppose that's true.
The ring makes a lever that multiplies the force on the bit. (edited because it sounded much snottier than I meant it  )


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

DancingArabian said:


> I think in certain circumstances it could. Would it help if a rider is very heavy handed or who uses the reins for balance? Instead of all their weight on the poor horses mouth, it would be somewhat deflected by the reins.
> 
> No evidence to support this. It's just a thought as to why someone would think so.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


deflects it off their mouth? how can pressure on the rein, thus onto the bit, be deflected off the mouth by a running martingale? pressure applied to the rein is pressure applied to the rein. you can change the angle that the pressure is applied, but the same amount would come through.

If the horse raises his head or the rider lifts the rein enough to engage the martingale, then some of the pull become downward pull, rather than straight back or upward. downward pull brings the bit more to bear onto the bars of the horse. Does that save the mouth? maybe takes pressure off the corners of the mouth, since pulling straight back does put pressure there.


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## Boo Walker (Jul 25, 2012)

me-thinks someone needs to take a physics class or two :think:


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

Boo Walker said:


> me-thinks someone needs to take a physics class or two :think:


 
That was my response, masked with a cough to disguise my laughter. This is a trainer that does this....


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> deflects it off their mouth? how can pressure on the rein, thus onto the bit, be deflected off the mouth by a running martingale? pressure applied to the rein is pressure applied to the rein. you can change the angle that the pressure is applied, but the same amount would come through.
> 
> If the horse raises his head or the rider lifts the rein enough to engage the martingale, then some of the pull become downward pull, rather than straight back or upward. downward pull brings the bit more to bear onto the bars of the horse. Does that save the mouth? maybe takes pressure off the corners of the mouth, since pulling straight back does put pressure there.


Bear in mind that I was just trying to figure out why someone would think this and I was NOT stating I believed it.

If a rider is leaning on the reins, all their pressure is directly on the horse's mouth. If the reins are passing through the bit and to the girth, wouldn't some of that pressure on the mouth be lessened and distributed to the girth as well?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

DancingArabian said:


> Bear in mind that I was just trying to figure out why someone would think this and I was NOT stating I believed it.
> 
> If a rider is leaning on the reins, all their pressure is directly on the horse's mouth. If the reins are passing through the bit and to the girth, wouldn't some of that pressure on the mouth be lessened and distributed to the girth as well?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, the girth just holds the bottom of the martingale down. The reins go through rings & there should be no pressure unless the horse tosses or raises it's head past a certain point.
I will sometimes use a running martingale as it gives instant pressure & release. I adjust it pretty loose so a horse has to really be a head tosser before it comes into play & even then the rider still has a choice on how much pressure is applied.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

i hope that the martingale is not attached to a bit with shanks..


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

DancingArabian said:


> Bear in mind that I was just trying to figure out why someone would think this and I was NOT stating I believed it.
> 
> If a rider is leaning on the reins, all their pressure is directly on the horse's mouth. If the reins are passing through the bit and to the girth, wouldn't some of that pressure on the mouth be lessened and distributed to the girth as well?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Good thought but no, the rings of the martingale make the rein a lever with it's fulcrum being the ring of the martingale. The applied force of the rider's hand is multiplied by the ring to make a greater the product force- which is the force on the bit. 

The strap on the girth is just an anchor so the martingale stays somewhat in place.


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## ICUWest7 (Jun 18, 2013)

DancingArabian said:


> Bear in mind that I was just trying to figure out why someone would think this and I was NOT stating I believed it.
> 
> If a rider is leaning on the reins, all their pressure is directly on the horse's mouth. If the reins are passing through the bit and to the girth, wouldn't some of that pressure on the mouth be lessened and distributed to the girth as well?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What you're thinking of are draw reins!


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

How tight is your martingale to act as a lever?


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

If it's engaged, it's a lever. If it's not engaged it's not doing anything. I don't personally use them unless it's a bad head tosser.


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## alexischristina (Jun 30, 2009)

Okay :wink: it sounded as if it were constantly engaged.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

now I a wondering about the physics of this. is it like a pulley or not?


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## Chevaux (Jun 27, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> now I a wondering about the physics of this. is it like a pulley or not?


I think its function might be closer to that of a fulcrum - it provides the support to give the reins leverage.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

tinyliny said:


> now I a wondering about the physics of this. is it like a pulley or not?


No it's a lever. A pulley trades distance for force, a lever just multiplies force like a crowbar.

So if you pull on the rope on a pulley to lift something heavy you will have to pull it farther than you want it to move but you will use les force to move a heavy object. Think weight room machines. You move your arms or legs farther distance wise than you move the weight, but you use less force than you would if you were lifting them without the pulley (free weights).


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

A martingale exerts downward pressure, no less, no more pressure than if not used. It just directs it downward, doubt it can save a horse's mouth much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

just to clarify, a running martingale gives you no mechanical advantage whatsoever (i.e. they aren't a lever). they only change the direction of the pressure.



> A pulley trades distance for force, a lever just multiplies force like a crowbar.


with a crowbar you trade distance for force also.


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## palogal (May 30, 2008)

christopher said:


> just to clarify, a running martingale gives you no mechanical advantage whatsoever (i.e. they aren't a lever). they only change the direction of the pressure.
> 
> 
> 
> with a crowbar you trade distance for force also.


Yes, they do and yes they are.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

please explain the physics


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

i can explain the contrary physics, and that is that any kind of lever (including both pulleys and crowbars) trades distance for force, as you put it. and because if i pull 1 inch of rein through a running martingale ring, regardless of whether or not it's engaged, it translates to 1 inch of rein movement on the other side of the martingale ring, you aren't losing and movement, therefore not gaining any force.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I actually see the logic in the argument that a running martingale can help a horses mouth, if you have a rider with unsteady hands, it can I think act as a kind of damper, think up and down movement being levelled out a little, gives a constant angle of contact.

Of course it needs to be fitted properly, and used with the right bit, but I think they can be a very useful artificial aid in the right circumstaces


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

palogal said:


> No it's a lever. A pulley trades distance for force, a lever just multiplies force like a crowbar.
> 
> So if you pull on the rope on a pulley to lift something heavy you will have to pull it farther than you want it to move but you will use les force to move a heavy object. Think weight room machines. You move your arms or legs farther distance wise than you move the weight, but you use less force than you would if you were lifting them without the pulley (free weights).


I do not think you can have lever action on something that is not stiff, like a crowbar or board, over the fulcrum. Since the rein is not stiff, the action is not the same. That's why I likened it more to a pulley. But, I am not sure it really is either.


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## existentialpony (Dec 4, 2012)

This is just something I've noticed with my horse (and probably a result of his badbadbad former training before he came to me...) but just putting my reins through a running martingale without engaging it even once during a ride makes him OODLES softer in his face! He also engages his back more at the canter, oddly enough. He's a weirdo, though, so I wouldn't call him the norm.

I'm not sure how a running martingale would "save a horse's mouth" on principle, though... how odd! I don't particularly love any contraptions (outside my bit, bridle, saddle and girth!) to begin with.


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## SketchyHorse (May 14, 2012)

existentialpony said:


> This is just something I've noticed with my horse (and probably a result of his badbadbad former training before he came to me...) but just putting my reins through a running martingale without engaging it even once during a ride makes him OODLES softer in his face! He also engages his back more at the canter, oddly enough. He's a weirdo, though, so I wouldn't call him the norm.


You're not alone in that. My mare rides 110% better in her running martingale than without. She gives that "test" in the beginning to see if it's there then rarely engages it again. I guess in our instances I can see it saving the mouth LOL. She likes to grab the bit and pull/jerk her head, and since she's big it pulls me out of the saddle & the only way to prevent that is really hold tight (and sit deep) and let her jam her mouth against the bit :? The running martingale allows me to not get yanked out of the saddle, let her correct herself, & on we go.


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## Prunella1 (Jun 2, 2013)

Perhaps someone needs to get a book on basic training methods, bits, bridles, aids, etc. Should only use martingale with a snaffle bit, am I right? The martingale works two ways...one to help a rider stay out of a horses's mouth if they are learning how to ride correctly, and to help train a horse to be more sensitive to pressure on the bit without making him hard in the mouth. I have thought of using a martingale on my quarter horse since she can ignore any pressure on the bit, I am back to a snaffle bit, which she seems to enjoy. She is doing much better with ground work because I don't know what the previous people did to her when riding....so back to the basics until she relaxes and pays more attention to me than what is going on with the other horses.


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## Prunella1 (Jun 2, 2013)

existentialpony said:


> This is just something I've noticed with my horse (and probably a result of his badbadbad former training before he came to me...) but just putting my reins through a running martingale without engaging it even once during a ride makes him OODLES softer in his face! He also engages his back more at the canter, oddly enough. He's a weirdo, though, so I wouldn't call him the norm.
> 
> I'm not sure how a running martingale would "save a horse's mouth" on principle, though... how odd! I don't particularly love any contraptions (outside my bit, bridle, saddle and girth!) to begin with.


I can relate to how some badbadbad former trainer/riders treated my horse, so I think a running martingale will help alot. She's doing good with
two weeks of ground work, but, she still has some bad habits that need to be worked out. Patience is a great virtue with animals!


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## As You Wish (May 22, 2013)

I sometimes use a running martingale on my horse but only because she is a head-in-the-air kinda girl. I ride with very soft hands. I just like to know she is not going to hit me in the face with her head. Like Natisha said, It gives instant pressure and release.


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## amberly (Dec 16, 2012)

Any bit in the wrong hands may be harsh.

Gentle hands and patience save the mouth.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The reason showjumpers, people who foxhunt and eventers almost always use a running martingale is because if the horse raises its head to a point where the action of the bit goes from the bars to the corners of the mouth at which point control gets lost the martingale acts as a lever effect to prevent that happening.
Running Martingale, How to Fit, When to use on a Horse
The same applies if the rider gets unbalanced and their hands go out of the ideal position and into a place where they could be pulling upwards against the teeth and corners instead of against the bars
A martingale only works correctly if fitted correctly


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## tlkng1 (Dec 14, 2011)

I never liked the running martingale as I always felt like it interfered with my hand. When it had to engage you lose the straight line from elbow to mouth connection. I actually felt LESS in control than when using the standing version. The preference of course was to train the horse so as not to need the martingale but some are just too jump silly.


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