# Flaxen liver or black silver carrier?



## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)




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## Dwarf (Jun 26, 2014)

Hard to tell from that picture, but does she have some dappling on her barrel and chest? If so then that screams Silver. Silver can lighten the black enough so that the coat has warm brown tones to it.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm with you trouble. OR maybe palomino? (sooty of course)


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

I asked for more pictures of her, and when I googled silver chocolate palomino they look near identical. All the liver chestnuts with flaxen are VERY dark.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

I vote silver.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

Looks like a pretty classic silver. Could be either a very dark brown silver or black silver. I would bet money on it.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

We always called that chestnut, flaxen, in German it is dunkel, a classic Shetland pony color!


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## phantomhorse13 (Feb 18, 2011)

I vote silver.

Notice the color change on the tips of the ears and the lack of a lighter ring around the hoof.

Compare to these horses I would call liver:


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I vote silver. Looks almost identical to @smrobs pony, Spud, who is silver.


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## karliejaye (Nov 19, 2011)

I don't see the tell-tale light ring at the coronet (that would indicate red-based), so I would vote silver. She is adorable!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Need genetic color testing.

This is aliver chestnut, and got abtter pic somewhere. I know, becuase I owned both parents, and both were chestnuts.
She is also a full sister to Smilie, and Stitch, who is the same chesnut shade as Smlie and to Maximized, who is pictured below, and is a light version, almost able to pass for Palomino

Shameless, the liver chestnut



Maximized


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Silver. I have a silver dapple mini and he fades to that color every summer. He starts out his summer coat much darker. If you do a body clip on him he looks like a typical grey horse with dapples. I've heard people call it taffy on Shetlands.


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

I had a pony the exact same color and he was a chocolate palomino.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I also vote silver. Like Drafty said, very similar appearance to my Spud


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

A chocolate palomino is usually the result of a paring between a palomino and a liver chestnut animal and is actually considered a palomino because it is created by the creme dilution gene.

You can read more about palomino color genetics 

palomino horses


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

from Wikipedia

Colors confused with palomino[edit]

Left to right: two chestnuts with flaxen manes, a palomino, and a gray
Many non-palominos may also have a gold or tan coat and a light mane and tail.

Chestnut with flaxen mane and tail: Lighter chestnuts with a light cream mane and tail carry a flaxen gene, but not a cream dilution. For example, the Haflinger breed has many light chestnuts with flaxen that may superficially resemble dark palomino, but there is no cream gene in the breed.
Cremellos carry two copies of the cream gene and have a light mane and tail but also a cream-colored hair coat, rosy pink skin and blue eyes.
The champagne gene is the most similar palomino mimic, as it creates a golden-colored coat on some horses, but golden champagnes have light skin with mottling, blue eyes at birth, and amber or hazel eyes in adulthood.[5]
Horses with a very dark brown coat but a flaxen mane and tail are sometimes called "chocolate palomino," and some palomino color registries accept horses of such color. However, this coloring is not genetically palomino. There are two primary ways the color is created. The best-known is a liver chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail. The genetics that create light flaxen manes and tails on otherwise chestnut horses are not yet fully understood, but they are not the same as the cream dilution. The other genetic mechanism is derived from the silver dapple gene, which lightens a black coat to dark brown, and affects the mane and tail even more strongly, diluting to cream or near-white.[6]
Buckskins have a golden body coat but a black mane and tail. Buckskin is also created by the action of a single cream gene, but on a bay coat.
Dun horses have a tan body with a darker mane and tail plus primitive markings such as a dorsal stripe down the spine and horizontal striping on the upper back of the forearm.
The pearl gene in a homozygous state creates a somewhat apricot-colored coat with pale skin. When crossed with a single cream gene, the resulting horse, often called a "pseudo-double-dilute", appears visually to be a cremello.
Color breed registries[edit]

Bottom line, without color testing knowing what color genetics the parents carried, all you then get is good guess work, the samE that CAUSED minimal marked anD roan Appaloosas, placed into the AQHA registry, in the beginning1
We have gone beyond that flawed visual sole method of color identification, 
, same as any other genetic trait where one can test for!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

daystar88 said:


> I had a pony the exact same color and he was a chocolate palomino.


Genetically, not atrue palomino-read on!


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I see silver.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

"Chocolate palomino" is just a dark palomino. It's all about shading here. I do think that may be a possibility though.

I found a thread, unfortunately from another forum so don't want to link, while googling and it was 15 or so various horses all of which were black silver, sooty palomino, flaxen chestnut (using basic names so we don't get confused but obviously all at the shades where they would look alike) then everyone was to guess.

The catcher was when the answers were posted several of the horses you would have SWORN were different colors were the same horse!! Some were easier than others, but this was with people who knew what they were talking about(from the sounds of it) and it was very very interesting. Well I thought so haha!

FWIW it was the fact I just saw that thread that made palomino come to mind I think lol, hard to remember "what OTHER color can ALSO look like this haha!


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

She's definitely a silver something! I have no doubt now. I'll put more pictures up but she has obvious dappleing. So here's a question for you's- owners said they THINK she foundered last fall as she was lame but has been fine since. They think it's "grown out" and she hasn't taken a lame step since. Still worth going to check out?


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## daystar88 (Jan 17, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Genetically, not atrue palomino-read on!


Well he was registered in the AMHA as a chocolate palomino paint. I'm just sharing my knowledge of my experience. Maybe they got it wrong.


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## ApuetsoT (Aug 22, 2014)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> She's definitely a silver something! I have no doubt now. I'll put more pictures up but she has obvious dappleing. So here's a question for you's- owners said they THINK she foundered last fall as she was lame but has been fine since. They think it's "grown out" and she hasn't taken a lame step since. Still worth going to check out?


If you do, get xrays of those feet. The think with foundering is that it's not just the hoof, it's the lamina inside, once that stuff gets damaged it doesn't go back to normal. You'd also have to be prepared to deal with strict dietary requirements that many metabolic prone horses require.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

ApuetsoT said:


> If you do, get xrays of those feet. The think with foundering is that it's not just the hoof, it's the lamina inside, once that stuff gets damaged it doesn't go back to normal. You'd also have to be prepared to deal with strict dietary requirements that many metabolic prone horses require.


Yeah, and I'm not too keen on that. She's four hours away, I can only afford to do PPEs on only the BEST prospects, and other than color she doesn't appeal to me. On the plus side she's only 250$, but she's 5-10 years old, broke to halter only.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

@Smilie, your quoted text says nothing about palominos. Saying "chocolate palomino" is like saying "liver chestnut." It's a descriptor for the shade. A palomino of any shade, whether pee-spot yellow or deep gold, is eeCRcr, genetically speaking. A chestnut of any shade, whether haffy chestnut or deep liver chestnut, is ee. Technically speaking, a chocolate palomino is a palomino with extensive sooty.

Also, there are A LOT of visual indicators for color that are fairly accurate, as is evidenced by the numerous "What color is my horse" threads here that the OPs got the horse genetically tested and we were correct on our guesses of color.


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

For the average person understand horse color genetics, a "chocolate palomino" is the same as a "sooty palomino" ... A genetically red based horse with a creme gene that is darker shade than the average palomino, probably do to having the (as of now) unknown "liver" modifier. 

If a person is calling a liver flaxen chestnut horse a chocolate palomino, they are mistaken.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> She's definitely a silver something! I have no doubt now. I'll put more pictures up but she has obvious dappleing. So here's a question for you's- owners said they THINK she foundered last fall as she was lame but has been fine since. They think it's "grown out" and she hasn't taken a lame step since. Still worth going to check out?


 
That's a tricky question. I was in the same basic boat with my pony when I first got him except I _knew_ he had been foundered and had been kept that way for quite some time. I wanted him badly and have enough experience/knowledge that I was confident I could help him as much as he could be helped so I bought him without a ppe or anything.

Thankfully, his feet weren't in too bad of shape (thin soled, tender, 2-3 mm of sink in both fronts and 2-3 degrees of rotation in one, sound on soft footing but very gimpy on gravel). Using padded boots for the first few months and then transitioning to therapeutic shoes with frog support pads has kept him sound since last November when I got him and I've put him through the gauntlet this spring.

I have taken care of his diet though, only grass hay, no fresh grass and no grain. Since he's been in work, I've been feeding alfalfa pellets with oil mixed in to keep him from dropping too much weight.


If she's been sound since, then the odds are that it's wasn't a severe founder, but you never really know without x-rays.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> Yeah, and I'm not too keen on that. She's four hours away, I can only afford to do PPEs on only the BEST prospects, and other than color she doesn't appeal to me. On the plus side she's only 250$, but she's 5-10 years old, broke to halter only.


Never hurts to ask "you pay PPE unless I buy her"


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Yogiwick said:


> Never hurts to ask "you pay PPE unless I buy her"


True. But chances are if they only want 250 for her they're not too keen on paying the asking price for a ppe, :/


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> True. But chances are if they only want 250 for her they're not too keen on paying the asking price for a ppe, :/


I get what you are saying but the catcher is if they think she will pass or not.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

daystar88 said:


> Well he was registered in the AMHA as a chocolate palomino paint. I'm just sharing my knowledge of my experience. Maybe they got it wrong.


There is a difference between a pony and a miniature horse. If your horse was registered with AMHA then it is not a pony it is a miniature horse. The option for color when registering a mini does not include chocolate or paint. They have a pinto option which you would then choose a color (palomino) but not shade designation. They also have a dapple option which would be silver dapple. If it is the Pepe horse then isn't he listed as not registered on your website? He looked silver dapple IMO.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I should say to my knowledge as I have never owned one just have a friend that raises them and I am going by past experience with her filing form.


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