# Inmates Rights in Prison?



## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

I think the inmates must work their butt off, not watch cable TV.


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

Look up Sherriff Joe's tent city.
That is how a jail/prison SHOULD be run!


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I think prisoners should be required to perform work to generate enough revenue so that prisons are financially self funding and cost the taxpayer nothing. If they can generate enough revenue to provide TV's, cable, or other activity costs, I wouldn't care one way or another what they did in their non working time. But the way it is now, prison is hardly even a deterrent any more...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

All human need something to relieve stress in their lives.
Recreation is as important as work or rest to function normally.
Most of these inmates will reenter soceity at some point.
Without improving their self esteem or learning skills that will help them be full fledged members or soceity they will reoffend.
Allowing them to watch pornography is probably conterproductive.
Yes they should be punished. Without relieving the stress and boredom of prison inmates become more violent and disruptive.
Treating them as Sherriff Joe does is barbaric in my opinion. Shalom


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> Without improving their self esteem or learning skills that will help them be full fledged members or soceity *they will reoffend.*


Lots of them do even with all TV and pornography watching. 

I have to agree with FM that I wouldn't care less if inmates would pay for those things themselves. Unfortunately it's our tax money that pay for their "stress relief". Which is wrong IMHO.


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Treating them as Sherriff Joe does is barbaric in my opinion. Shalom


Prison isn't supposed to be anything remotely resembling a vacation.
There's a reason they call it "hard time"!
Recidivism is at an all time high.
Apparently, what the justice system deals out in punishment isn't adequate to deter repeat offenders.
Just as a child learns not to steal cookies from the cookie jar by getting his hand smacked, adult criminal behavior isn't being curbed by the punishments dealt by the courts.
The pain element isn't adequate to alter their mindset.
The implied pain isn't adequate to deter the criminal behavior.
I bet if we amped up the punishment, it would change the deterring aspect.
The US has the highest percentage of its population behind bars of any nation on the planet. 
We also have the most lenient punishment structure on the planet.
Makes me think about the kid in Singapore that vandalized the cars a few years back.
The kid got caned and had to pay reparations.
I'm pretty sure his butt whippin changed his mind about doing something like that ever again.
People squealed that it was cruel and unusual.
It would have been considered so if he were on US soil, but he wasn't.
Singapore is an amazing place.
Very low crime, very clean, and the people are very nice and exceedingly polite.
Their justice system is also one of the more "barbaric" by our standards.
Theft is punished in the extreme - conviction gets your hand removed.
A rape conviction earns castration.
Their society is extremely harsh with those who would do harm to others.
Conversely, we take the opposite mentality in that we offer multiple attempts at rehabilitation before we crank up the pain factor.
How often do we read about a drunk driver killing someone, and it was their 3rd, 4th, or more DUI?
Convicted felons out committing more crimes?
Drug dealers feeding their poison to our children, even after being convicted numerous times?
One of my favorites is the guy who got stopped for erratic driving, and it was his 12th DUI...5th EXTREME DUI!
Yeah, sure.
Our justice system is REAL effective.
Sherriff Joe barbaric?
Not by a long shot.
He has the lowest rates of recidivism in the nation.
Might have something there.
Pink skivvies, green baloney, and a harsh environment that's a significant deterrent for repeat offenders.
There's many reasons he gets REELECTED by huge margins!
He gets the job DONE!
When inmates complain about the harsh treatment, Joe's reply is DON'T COME BACK!
The criminals earned their punishment.
They did someone wrong, and are getting their due.
Also, consider the effect on victims.
If you were robbed and beaten in your own home, what punishment would be just for the assailant?
Just a thought....


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Treating his inmates like sub humans only inflates Sherriff Joes ego. It only re enforces the low self image most inmates have of themselves.
When we no longer re habiltate inmates we make the problem worse.
They may not commit crimes in his county but I can assure you they reenter the criminal justice system.
Most people in prison are there for drug related crimes, not rape murder or assualt. Yet they are treated the same. 
I'm not saying they should have an easy time. They do need some time to wind down and refelct on how life really is on the outside.
I have had a few clients that were former inmates.
None of them had an easy time.
I have been a victim of assualt. I had 30 staples in the back of my head from an attack with beer bottles.
the teenages that committed the crime were convicted of assualt and hate crimes. They are doing 10 years.
I would not want them to eat sub standard food or sleep in tents.
I want them to reenter soceity and never again commit such violence against anyone. 
I am certain that their time in the Texas prison system is no cakewalk. Shalom


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

Faceman said:


> I think prisoners should be required to perform work to generate enough revenue so that prisons are financially self funding and cost the taxpayer nothing. If they can generate enough revenue to provide TV's, cable, or other activity costs, I wouldn't care one way or another what they did in their non working time. But the way it is now, prison is hardly even a deterrent any more...


Exactly 



dbarabians said:


> All human need something to relieve stress in their lives.
> Recreation is as important as work or rest to function normally.
> Most of these inmates will reenter soceity at some point.
> Without improving their self esteem or learning skills that will help them be full fledged members or soceity they will reoffend.
> ...


omg...... poor felon needs a stress relief, what about the person who was robbed and beaten and will be in a wheelchair for life? The person who did this gets 2 years.
Or the murderer who gets 10 years because the didn't mean to.
The dozens of senior citizens bilked out of their life savings and forced to eat dog food because they are now penniless.

Prison are full because the punishment no longer fits the crime.

Ever heard the saying? " if you cannot do the time, do not commit the crime " 

I am not saying ball and chains or flogging, but get real....... Pay per view TV and Pornography :lol:



.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

WTG our prison system is not about an eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth.
If someone is harmed you cannot repay them by suffering .
Our system should be based on punishment not revenge.
If all prisoners receive is harsh treatment what type of citizen will they be when they are released?
Having someone tell you every move that you make, when to eat, when to rise, what to wear, cannot be pleasant.
The numbers of sexual assualts in prison are astounding. Injuries are common. Murder is not unheard of and is common also.
You are never able to relax except in your sleep.
A little entertainment is not going to make the rest go away. Shalom


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Faceman said:


> I think prisoners should be required to perform work to generate enough revenue so that prisons are financially self funding and cost the taxpayer nothing. If they can generate enough revenue to provide TV's, cable, or other activity costs, I wouldn't care one way or another what they did in their non working time. But the way it is now, prison is hardly even a deterrent any more...


In Nevada you can actually hire prison crews to do work like build fence, clean up scrap and clear brush. I forgot what the rate is but they bring some prisoners( not murders or rapists, but in for DUIs, small time stuff) in a van, some guards, tools and a lunch wagon. 
I think its a great idea.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I also like Sherrif Joe. He may be arrogant, but I don't believe prisoners should be treated better than people on the outside following laws. One of my good friends worked for a Sherrifs department in OR at the jail. Inmates told her on many occasions if they needed health care they would commit a crime or violate probation so they could go to jail. They could get their teeth fixed and go to the doctor at tax payers expense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

COWCHICK77 said:


> Inmates told her on many occasions if they needed health care they would commit a crime or violate probation so they could go to jail. They could get their teeth fixed and go to the doctor at tax payers expense.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have run into that same thing many times



dbarabians said:


> WTG our prison system is not about an eye for an eye or tooth for a tooth.
> If someone is harmed you cannot repay them by suffering .
> Our system should be based on punishment not revenge.


Never said eye for an eye, remember I said no ball and chains or flogging...lol....

Years ago prisoners broke rocks with a sledge hammer and most were not so anxious to get back in ... just saying

Maybe if there was more punishment and less Pay per View TV as stated by the OP... then maybe some would think twice before breaking the law.

I am not saying prison is a pleasant place, and I do know people who have been there, but those same ones seem to keep going back by committing crimes, has to make you wonder............


.


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

dbarabians said:


> Treating his inmates like sub humans only inflates Sherriff Joes ego. It only re enforces the low self image most inmates have of themselves.
> When we no longer re habiltate inmates we make the problem worse.
> 
> I would not want them to eat sub standard food or sleep in tents.
> ...


Sub humans? Really?
Sleeping in tents?
Sub-standard food?
Even in tent city, they STILL have it better than our MILITARY serving in Afghanistan!
While I do respect your opinion DBArabians, and it's clear we're going to agree to disagree here, I do urge you to ponder a couple things.
Prisoners are required to receive 3 meals a day that meet USDA guidelines for basic nutrition. 
They are required to have water, and a place to sleep.
Our military boys and girls often don't have that much comfort.
Sleeping a couple hours in a shallow hole in the middle of a rock strewn landscape, maybe an MRE and a canteen of bath temp water, and the threat of death all around them is what our troops on the front lines have to look forward to.
So, respectfully, I really can't justify even remotely how to concede more comfort to criminals than we can to our troopers.
I flat can't.
Joe's inmates may be treated poorly by some standards, but at what point do we say enough is enough?
They have food, water, and shelter.
They have tv.
Send them to school, or put them to work to repay the tab to society that it costs to incarcerate them!
The current system churns out better criminals!
rehabilitation is a choice of the person being rehabilitated. They have to want to be rehabbed.
It cannot be compelled, or forced upon anyone.
It must be a conscious choice on their part.
Most could care less about rehabilitation.
Many whine about not getting some sort of a handout, crying woe is me!
Part of the rehab process should include:
1) life isn't fair. Deal with it.
2) america promises life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness. The degree of which is totally up to you, and how much you want it.
3) everyone makes mistakes. Wise people learn from them. Stupid ones repeat the same mistakes over and over. Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result is the textbook definition of insanity.
4) the government doesn't owe you a darn thing. Neither does society. 
5) the golden rule still applies. So does murphys law, newton's law, and the laws of physics.
6) if you want nice things, get a job and earn them.
7) you're in jail because of choices that YOU made. Own it, accept it, and move forward.
8) if you want "another chance", after you did the same thing 3 times, and got caught, hmmmmm......NO.
9) free rides are in the movies. Movies are fantasy land. 
10) if you want respect, show others that same level of respect. You'd be amazed at the results you get.


So, no, the prisoners of tent city are (in my opinion) treated fairly.
They get fed, they have places to sleep, they have plenty of water to drink, and shelter from the sun.
If they don't like the accomodations, they are welcome to straighten themselves out, and never return.
Again- increase the pain level of the deterring factors, and it will alter the way people think. And that is the first step to them being a positive contributor to society.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

aswanapaint, If I messed up your name I'm sorry. 
The first step to keeping inmates from reoffending is to treat the underlying issues that caused them to commit a crime.
As a Mental Health Professional I believe inmates should be given the opprotunity to learn skills, get counseling, and an education to prepare them for life on the outside.
A lot of those inmates come from homes with abusive and/or neglectful parents. Some of them didn't have a chance to begin with.
I have counseled many former inmates and curently have a few now.
Yes our system is a joke, but to imply inmates have it easy and do not suffer enough is not true.
What we must understand is that most of the inmates will get out and they will not be prepared.
Would you hire one?
Military personnel scarifice their comforts willingly. Do they serve in harsh conditions? Yes, but, not for 3-5 years at a time.
Shalom


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> The first step to keeping inmates from re-offending is to treat the underlying issues that caused them to commit a crime.


The people I know have told me point blank, it is easier to steal or sell drugs than it is to work, in a few hours they can make what a person with a job makes in a month.



> As a Mental Health Professional I believe inmates should be given the opprotunity to learn skills, get counseling, and an education to prepare them for life on the outside.


Nothing wrong with that, for those that want to learn, you cannot force it though.



> A lot of those inmates come from homes with abusive and/or neglectful parents. Some of them didn't have a chance to begin with.


oh, same old broken home scenario, please you detract from the 10's of thousands who did not use that excuse and rose above the age old excuse 



> I have counseled many former inmates and currently have a few now.
> Yes our system is a joke, but to imply inmates have it easy and do not suffer enough is not true.


and what about the victims, that are scared for life, dead, crippled for life, etc. again I am not proposing abuse of prisoners.



> What we must understand is that most of the inmates will get out and they will not be prepared.
> Would you hire one?


Yes, when I ran a manufacturing company years ago I hired quite a few and had no regrets, in an interview you can usually tell who wants to work and who does not, ex-inmate or someone who has never been in the system.



> Military personnel sacrifice their comforts willingly. Do they serve in harsh conditions? Yes, but, not for 3-5 years at a time.
> Shalom


and criminals do not commit crimes willingly? and know the consequences that their willing actions will result in? your argument on that is a little flawed.....

.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

SouthernTrailsGA already said it better than I'd do. 

There are different reasons for people to get to the jail. But I agree crime for the most parts is not something the person is forced to do - they _chose_ to do it. Lots and lots of people come from poor/abusive families, still honestly start life working their a*s off to get a chance in life. They don't sell drugs or rob the convenience store for_ easy money_. 

P.S. Of course, life is not all black and white. And I can see the situation when, say, the younger person was forced to participate in robbery. I think in this case such person does need protection and help. But those are more of an exception than something common.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Prisons are full of people who are impoverished, minority, uneducated, and have issues with drugs and alcohol. They have for the most part received no positive reinforcement in their lives.
These issues along with high unemployment among minorities has resulted in high crime rates in that portion of soceity.
Without addressing these issues locking some one up is not going to solve anything. 
Once they are released these issues will resurface again.
The inmate will most likely return to his old enviroment and commit more crimes.
If all we do is punish the inmates then we might as well lock the majority ofthem up for the rest of their lives. Shalom


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## mind (Dec 14, 2011)

The majority of of inmates who are sent to Sheriff Joe's prison are very low level offenders, not hardened criminals. Teaching a person caught with a a couple joints or a gram of cocaine to not be caught with it again by sending them to prison is not difficult, because they are not seriously committed to a criminal lifestyle prior to being incarcerated. The offender made a bad judgement call on a Friday night, that's it. Encouraging a serious offender to not turn back to crime after being released is an entirely different challenge, which Sheriff Joe's "methods" would be completely ineffective against. Serious offenders need to be given a real alternative to crime, which an education provides. 

The pink boxers and stripes is ridiculous, there's no logic behind it. 

If I were an inmate, I would rather not be in a prison which provides pornography. Rape is a very real and common occurrence in prison, I'd rather my fellow inmates not be given any.... encouragement.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> All human need something to relieve stress in their lives.
> Recreation is as important as work or rest to function normally.
> Most of these inmates will reenter soceity at some point.
> Without improving their self esteem or learning skills that will help them be full fledged members or soceity they will reoffend.
> ...


This is pure fantasy


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> Prisons are full of people who are impoverished, minority, uneducated, and have issues with drugs and alcohol. They have for the most part received no positive reinforcement in their lives.


What they should have received was a bullet to the brain housing group. Then rehabilitation would be complete.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I have a bit more experience than most regarding this subject. I worked inside a Texas state prison for over 5 years and I can tell you, many of those inmates have it much easier than many of us outside.

They don't want to work at their assigned job? They go to the prison shrink and cry about how stressed they are having to stand around watching a huge pot of hard-boiled eggs cook or they cry to the clinic doctor about how the repetitive sweeping motion make their back hurt terribly. They purposefully stick their hands in hot water to make them irritated and then they claim that "they can't work with any form of cleaning chemical".

They do whatever they have to in order to do nothing but sit around all day in the dayrooms and watch TV (no ppv or porn in TX, just basic cable; local nbc, cbs, abc, fox, tnt, and 2 espn channels).

The Windham School District offers high school, GED, and college courses for any inmate that wants them so if they remain uneducated, it is by their own choosing.

What many people don't realize is that recidivism is high because they choose to repeat the crime because doing the time is easy. I've had numerous inmates tell me that. Many say "Yes, I know what I did was illegal, but you know what? As soon as I get out, I'm going right back to it because it's *easy money*. If I get caught, oh well, it's easy time too".

That's the truth for the drug dealers and others like that. As for the child molesters, the rapists, the spouse abusers; they'll go back because they can't stop. It doesn't matter how much therapy or counseling or medications they are "required" to have, they will always be a chester or a rapist or an abuser. They don't think they have a problem. If they did, then they would be going out of their way to help themselves...which they never do.

I have seen things and I know things about people that would make your blood curdle. Stuff that makes anything they report on the news seem like kindergarten playland.

So, no, I don't feel that they deserve TV, or anything else that they don't absolutely work their own asses off for. They **** sure don't deserve to have 4-5 hours a day of rec time with weight machines and basketball courts.

And, no, I am not one of those "all people who break the law deserve death" types either. I know people make mistakes, what I judge a person on is how they handle their incarceration. If they mind their business, do their work, and treat people with the respect that they deserve, then they got nothing but respect from me. However, inmates like that are the _extreme_ minority. Most of them want to do nothing but run their mouths and show their junk and try to puff themselves up in front of their buddies.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

mildot said:


> What they should have received was a bullet to the brain housing group. Then rehabilitation would be complete.


 This statement is without reason and has no place in this discussion.
Are you that ignorant and full of hate?
We are discussing humans here not rabid dogs.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

SmRobs I do not beleive that inmates have it easier than you or I.
I am sure that you have seen first hand the mess our criminal justice system is in.
If punishment only is not working then we must try something else.
This country spends billions to incarcerate millions.
Sending inmates out into soceity without changing the behavior that got them imprisoned will only cost us more.
The therapist that I knbow who work in the system tell me that not only do the prisoner resist treatment but so do the prison officials.
Treating people as humans is important to the individual as it is to soceity.SMRobs thanks for your insightful post. Shalom


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## azwantapaint (Feb 5, 2012)

smrobs said:


> I have a bit more experience than most regarding this subject. I worked inside a Texas state prison for over 5 years and I can tell you, many of those inmates have it much easier than many of us outside.
> 
> What many people don't realize is that recidivism is high because they choose to repeat the crime because doing the time is easy. I've had numerous inmates tell me that. Many say "Yes, I know what I did was illegal, but you know what? As soon as I get out, I'm going right back to it because it's *easy money*. If I get caught, oh well, it's easy time too".
> 
> That's the truth for the drug dealers and others like that. As for the child molesters, the rapists, the spouse abusers; they'll go back because they can't stop. It doesn't matter how much therapy or counseling or medications they are "required" to have, they will always be a chester or a rapist or an abuser. They don't think they have a problem. If they did, then they would be going out of their way to help themselves...which they never do.


Smrobs, that's pretty accurate.
My brother is a cop, and my two best buds are former DOC, and i hear the very same things.
Still think Prison is a deterrent?
Guess not.
3 hots and a cot, lumpin on the couch watching tv all day, whining to get out of work.
Hmmmm.....
Real productive.....
These jamokes have mastered the art of manipulation, to gain a care free life on someone else's dime, namely we tax payers.
Again, i reiterate, amp up the PAIN and attitudes will change.
I also don't think that hanging them all is the solution, but i think a few very public hangings would be an amazing catalyst for changing the attitudes of criminal minds.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> Prisons are full of people who are impoverished, minority, uneducated, and have issues with drugs and alcohol. They have for the most part received no positive reinforcement in their lives.
> These issues along with high unemployment among minorities has resulted in high crime rates in that portion of soceity.
> Without addressing these issues locking some one up is not going to solve anything.


Up until that post, I at least understood your reasoning, although I disagree with it.

But that post is over the top.

Here is a newsflash - THE LAW ABIDING population is* "full of people who are impoverished, minority, uneducated, and have issues with drugs and alcohol. THEY have for the most part received no positive reinforcement in their lives".* 

Their is no dang difference between an honest person and a criminal other than the criminal is a criminal.

I am sick and tired of the criminal element making excuses like poverty or race or lack of an education for their criminal behavior. I mean no disrespect to you personally, but that is a bunch of bull hockey. When I was 16, I left home, was uneducated, didn't have a dime or clothes or anything to my name, and had some, shall we say, bad habits picked up from my hippie friends. 12 years later, in 1975, I had served a hitch in Vietnam, had 3 degrees and a six figure income, a wife, 2 kids, and a home in the suburbs.

Sorry, but I ain't buying that one bit...


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> SmRobs I do not beleive that inmates have it easier than you or I.


Not to be rude but you need a reality check..and it's *extremely* offensive to say that our service members have it easier than inmates. Are you kidding?? I don't even know what else to say to you because I am EXTREMELY offended by all of your posts in this thread. Smrobs is EXACTLY right in what she's stated..and you not ever have been in a prison setting or have had that first had experience you have NO idea what it's like..It's not "Poor stressed inmates, let's baby them so they'll try to be good citizens when they reenter the real world."...Uh, no. It doesn't work like that..And I'm 99.9% positive every inmate would laugh reading your posts and think "What the heck are they thinking?"..


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## mind (Dec 14, 2011)

Faceman said:


> Up until that post, I at least understood your reasoning, although I disagree with it.
> 
> But that post is over the top.
> 
> ...


I have complete respect for your personal experience Faceman; in fact, my experience is actually somewhat similar as I left home young and am now working my second degree. I do somewhat disagree with your position, however. In my experience, people very rarely follow a different path than their parents. I've had friends with parents who could not be classified as productive members of society, those friends roughly followed the same path. I've had friends whose parents were both highly educated, they're now highly educated. I've had friends whose parents are moderately successful but uneducated, again, they followed the same path. Obviously those are just my highly unscientific observations, but I do see a general consistency. For whatever reason, a child almost undoubtedly mimics their parents life. I would think it's totally learned behaviour, and that should be taken into consideration when a person is being rehabilitated in prison.



mildot said:


> What they should have received was a bullet to the brain housing group. Then rehabilitation would be complete.


If you're serious, that's a very sad comment on the state of society.



mildot said:


> Oh boy, dbarabians's fantasy world must be exploding right about now that someone with first hand experience actually chimes in.


These types of comments are completely unnecessary in a discussion between mature adults.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Agree totally with SMrobs and the others that the change that is needed is a bit more "discomfort" for the prisoners. Work is a great start. Why are we not having them dig ditches, clean up roadsides, etc in EVERY state? Just makes good sense to me. they are way to comfortable, which is why many of them are repeat offenders.

Dh-you live in a fantasy world, IMO. I too am offended by you actually not seeing that many of the prisoners have it better than many of the working poor in society as well as the military. The Navy SEAL I was proud to know slept in many places in his career that would have made the prison look like the Hilton. The meals he had as his rations at times also made prison life look **** good. Yes, it was his choice to serve and defend the freedom we all have, including the idiots in the prisons! And he was proud to do it. Prison is easier than the military, otherwise more of the guys there may have chosen a different "career path". That alone should be food for thought.

One problem with the prisons is the shrinks who these guys can go whine to and manipulate. They need to be told in no uncertain terms, life is tough, and you have a choice. Put on your big boy boxers and deal with it like many folks to and stop taking the easy way out-in prison. They don't have to wake up every day and wonder where there next meal us coming from, whether there is a roof over their heads, or whether they are safe, even. The reality is they are safer than many working people are in their own homes! Oh-and no, not everyone can be helped, even with counseling and therapy. They have to want it, which many of them do NOT. Why would they? Life is easy where they are.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

mind said:


> I have complete respect for your personal experience Faceman; in fact, my experience is actually somewhat similar as I left home young and am now working my second degree. I do somewhat disagree with your position, however. In my experience, people very rarely follow a different path than their parents. I've had friends with parents who could not be classified as productive members of society, those friends roughly followed the same path. I've had friends whose parents were both highly educated, they're now highly educated. I've had friends whose parents are moderately successful but uneducated, again, they followed the same path. Obviously those are just my highly unscientific observations, but I do see a general consistency. For whatever reason, a child almost undoubtedly mimics their parents life. I would think it's totally learned behaviour, and that should be taken into consideration when a person is being rehabilitated in prison.


I agree, but that is exactly my point. The fact that many people overcome obstacles and adversity to lead a productive and successful life is proof that it can be done, and is proof that those obstacles are NOT valid excuses. If no one ever pulled themselves out of the abyss, then perhaps those could be used as excuses, but that is simply not the case. 

I worked with the "underserved" community for 15 years while with the federal government, most of which were in the blighted Mississippi Delta region in Arkansas, consisting of poor, uneducated minorities. I worked directly with the people and with community and church leaders, and know first hand the difficulties you point out. It is a complicated issue, particularly with people coming from several generations of ignorance and poverty, because ignorance tends to beget ignorance as you obviously know. However, those with the character and motivation to get out can and do get out. I personally know and have worked with lots of people who escaped the fate of their parents and grandparents and are very successful - and likewise I know many that put forth a half hearted effort (or no effort at all) and have spent their lives scratching out an existance from government assistance and crime.

While I am knowledgeable, sympathetic, and empathetic with those obstacles and adversities, and the effort, character, and determination it takes to overcome them, I do not, and never will, accept those obstacles as excuses or justification for murder, rape, stealing, doing drugs, or any number of other crimes. There is no justification beyond poor character and the refusal to put forth the effort...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

If I offended anyone that is not my concern.
As a Mental Health Professional I base my theory on the mental health of the inmate.
Without treating the underlying issues that they carry with them into prison you have only punished them. Not solved the problem.
I do know this the inmates who access programs that help them transition back into soceity are successful.
The support they receive both in and out of prison is important to changing their lives.
If anyone thinks that being poor, minority , an abused and negelected child have no bearing on your life then you have your head in the sand.
I am not concerned about what they did, or how long they served a sentence. My concern is about what caused them to caommit a crime and how to prevent it.
I have lived ion a few different countries in my life.
Israel being one of them and a few in Europe.
Their crime rates are no where near what our are they imprison far fewer people than we do.
Our current Criminal Justice System is a joke something must change.
Shalom


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

To those of you who doubt my sincerity about executing violent criminals, don't.

Give me a yard full of violent convicts, a firing squad, and I'll guarantee 0% repeat offenders.

Like dbarabians, I don't care what they did or how long they've been in. Unlike him, I don't care WHY they did it. I only care than they never hurt anyone else again.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> As a Mental Health Professional I base my theory on the mental health of the inmate.


Theory? Do you have some facts to back it up?



dbarabians said:


> Without treating the underlying issues that they carry with them into prison you have only punished them. Not solved the problem.


The underlying issue is lack of character and morals. Good luck with that.



dbarabians said:


> I do know this the inmates who access programs that help them transition back into soceity are successful.


How about a source for the data that proves your point?



dbarabians said:


> The support they receive both in and out of prison is important to changing their lives.


You've been told, by people who deal with inmates day in and day out, that they actively PREFER a life of crime and prison as it is easier than an honest life. More "support" isn't going to cure that lack of character.



dbarabians said:


> If anyone thinks that being poor, minority , an abused and negelected child have no bearing on your life then you have your head in the sand.


More excuses.


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## mildot (Oct 18, 2011)

dbarabians said:


> We are discussing humans here not rabid dogs.


As far as I am concerned those who use criminal violence on the law abiding are no better than rabid dogs. And I consider the remedy the same in both cases.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> ...If anyone thinks that being poor, minority , an abused and negelected child have no bearing on your life then you have your head in the sand...


And if anyone thinks those obstacles cannot be overcome, they have THEIR head in the sand.

db, you need to take your rose colored glasses off and ask yourself why some people do escape and some people don't. I hate to be the one to tell you, but some people are of good character and some are not.

I am all for helping those of good character dig their way out - I have spent a good portion of my life doing just that. But as far as the ones of poor character, I have no sympathy for them. Their m.o. is predictable and consistent...in and out of rehab, in and out of prison, always "wanting" to reform, yet constantly backsliding into the whirlpool, give them a chance and they screw it up, give them another and they screw that up too...and so it goes...

You are being a bit condescending on this particular topic, intimating that because you are a social worker you know more than anyone else, and your opinions "count" more, and that is baloney. As I said earlier, I have worked in basically the same community as you have, and I and most people have friends and family in similar circumstances as the people you work with - it's not like you are the only enlightened one and the rest of us are flailing in the darkness.

You can lead a horse to water... You are trained to keep leading the horse to water time after time, whether it is productive or not. I, on the other hand, am willing to lead the horse to water, but when the horse won't drink even after I shove his nose in it I am not going to waste my time or effort or money time after time...


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> If I offended anyone that is not my concern.


Not offended, too busy laughing lol.....



> As a Mental Health Professional I base my theory on the mental health of the inmate.


You still have side stepped the issue of what about victims rights... do you have no empathy for them or is it all one sided?



> Without treating the underlying issues that they carry with them into prison you have only punished them. Not solved the problem.
> I do know this the inmates who access programs that help them transition back into soceity are successful. The support they receive both in and out of prison is important to changing their lives.


Repeating myself and others, the problem is a lack of respect for others, it is easier to steal than to work.....



> If anyone thinks that being poor, minority , an abused and negelected child have no bearing on your life then you have your head in the sand.


Head in a sand?, pot calling the kettle black, you still are negating the fact that 90% of people in poverty do not commit crimes. Just a liberal excuse.



> I am not concerned about what they did, or how long they served a sentence. My concern is about what caused them to caommit a crime and how to prevent it.


Already covered many times.



> I have lived ion a few different countries in my life.
> Israel being one of them and a few in Europe.
> Their crime rates are no where near what our are they imprison far fewer people than we do.


If you lived in other Countries you should already realize Criminals are not molly coddled in most Countries, they serve hard time, you should also know Prisons in the US are a resort compared to most Foreign Prisons.

If the reason for less Criminals in other Countries was all about Mental Health Issues and Physiological Theories, do you not think the US would have adopted those measures and our Criminal population would be cut dramatically?

.


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

Now faceman .. everyone know if you lead a horse to water and he repeatedly refuses to drink ... you call the vet! You walked right into that one .... lol.

On moral character .. it also explains why so many privileged people repeatedly break the law .. despite their privileged upbringing ... the difference being, they have the means and power to stay out of prison ...

dba, I understand your view .. the the place from which you are coming. I disagree with almost every argument you have ....

Having said that .. you are STILL my favorite Texas liberal .. *smile*


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## SouthernTrails (Dec 19, 2008)

texasgal said:


> privileged people repeatedly break the law .. despite their privileged upbringing


True,

I guess these Criminals came from underprivileged home ....  Pablo Escobar, Dennis Kozlowski, Al Capone, Amado Fuentes, Leona Helmsy, Brian Wright, Anthony Salerno, Bernie Madoff


Criminals come from all walks of life............

edited... but some do not believe us 



.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

DH-you would appear to be more concerned with the offenders than the victims. That is what I have an issue with. I have this vision of someone robbing you at gunpoint, and you trying to counsel them as they rob you blind. What color IS the sky in your world?

Just so we are clear, I do not wish you any harm, just find you very naive. And others are correct. The crime rates ARE lower in other countries because the convicts are not mollycoddled with cable TV and 3 squares a day.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

texasgal said:


> Having said that .. you are STILL my favorite Texas liberal .. *smile*


Haha...at least he speaks his mind and is honest and you know where he stands. I hate those sneaky liberals that pretend to be normal rational people rofl but then go into the voting booth and vote with their left hand...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I have not said that being disadvantaged is a free ride to commit a crime.
I am saying it plays a part in the outcome.
Everyone is not going to access help. That I know as well as anyone.
I have had many clients that were not successful in therapy. I can almost tell you which ones will be and those who won't.
I am as frustrated as anyone when this occurs. Yet, it is my job to see that they are afforded the opprotunity to try.
I have a PHD , that doesn't make me any smarter than anyone. I do have access to reports and studies on the criminal justice system. I use these to help me guide my clients that are excons. I talk to my clients Parole Officers, Judges and lawyers to ensure that they follow the terms of their sentence.
I have recommended that parole be revoked in some cases. Because of lack of participation or sincerity.
I am looking at this issue from one aspect perhaps. The mental health of the inmate is as important as the sentence if theya re to become self sufficeint. 
Thanks TexasGal by the way. Shalom


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman thanks for the vote of confidence my friend.
I'm still laughing. Shalom


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> Faceman thanks for the vote of confidence my friend.
> I'm still laughing. Shalom


Well, I consider you one of those rare rational liberals...of course you can probably say the same about conservatives...:rofl:

I find this statement interesting and true...


> I have had many clients that were not successful in therapy. I can almost tell you which ones will be and those who won't.


When you have worked with as many people as I have, and probably you have, you get to be a pretty good judge of character. I read people extremely well - I'm one of those that is cursed with the ability to see behind the eyes and can tell what someone is thinking regardless of what they are saying. I also read body language well, although I am far from an expert in that department. It doesn't take long to mentally separate those you can help from those you can't. I've given just a ton of speeches, lectures, seminars and workshops, and you can even tell from the front of the room. I try not to overqualify people so I can give them all a fair shake, but you can tell when you are talking to a brick wall. I can probably count on one hand, or maybe two, the number of people I have misread in a first impression, but it is still important to give them all the opportunity just in case you are wrong.

Just as a sidebar, I'm attaching a success story of a guy I worked with. He is an example of one of those that, when given the opportunity, puts forth the effort and reaches out and grabs the brass ring. Not only is Larry black in an area that still has racial tensions, but he is just a tad under 5 feet tall, so doesn't exactly fit the corporate mold. I had worked with him when I was at SBA, and he came to me when I retired from SBA and joined the bank. Larry had a small mom and pop janitorial service and wanted to bid on the janitorial contract for Pine Bluff Arsenal, which is a $5 million 5 year contract, renewable upon satisfactory performance and a follow-up bid. Larry neded to demonstrate a sufficient capital position to perform on the contract (which required a payroll of 35 employees), so needed a substantial revolving line of credit, but there was not a bank in town that would touch him for several reasons. Well, I did, schooled him on how to manage a line of credit, and provided him with a committment letter to include in his bid. Needless to say he got the contract, and has performed perfectly on his line of credit, as well as other loans I extended him.

That is probably way too much information (although I tried to keep it as non technical as I could), and may be of no general interest, but he is an example of someone that was uneducated from a Delta region truck farm family, but he had the character to (reasonably) educate himself, work his butt off in a husband/wife business, and then go for the big break and have enough savvy to know which resource people to go to. He had all the cards stacked against him, but had the character and determination to overcome his adversities.

I'm sure you have your success stories too, and you know as well as I those are what you work and hope for...

:: All Seasons Carpet & Janitorial Svc. Inc.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman I like you even more now. Logical conservatives I can appreciate and admire.
I want everyone to know that I have read each and every post.
Except for one member I understand your post and believe that most have valid points.
The Criminal Justice System needs to be reformed. I think we can all agree on that.
I think if the lock them up and throw away the key is not working then we need to find other ways to reform inmates.
Well adjusted and emotionally secure people do not go to prison for the most part. They see life differently than those who are not.
Once they have committed a crime there is nothing we can do to prevent it. We can though direct our time and money trying to prevent future crimes they may commit.. Shalom


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

I worked for the DOC for 23 years, with all custody levels from trustees to death row inmates, I can tell you from experience you don't want to take the TV's away, you don't want to take the weights away. Do inmates have it easier than the people on the streets, some do some don't, there are predators or prey in the prisons and very little in between. There are inmates and then there are convicts two different animals (pun intended). Most prisons just warehouse inmates, they offer little in they way of jobs, trades, and rehabilitation due to the massive amounts of budget cuts. There is a whole lot more to placing an inmate into a job assignment than you would think, things have to be considered, such as custody levels, gang status, education level, length of sentence, type of crime. Would you want a serial rapist working out on a chain gang type of job out in the public? Most would not, not only is it a safety concern it is also a liability to the state. The thing is you can offer high school education but you can't make them go, same with self help programs, and mental health counseling , you can't make most inmates take the meds they need to function except in rare cases. Alot of states don't have state run mental health hospitals any more so some of those people end up in the prison system. My job was to make sure the inmates stayed in for the time they were sentenced to, and to keep them and the community as safe as possible, not to judge them for the crime they committed or treat them any differently because of that crime. Force was met with force, people got shot, got killed, got raped, got beat up, got robbed. Some never came back, some came back several times, you'd ask they why and some would say "this is all I know", some couldn't give you an answer call it job security or what ever you want, but the bottom line is you can't save them all, they have to reach a point where they want to change for themselves for rehabilitation to work.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

"Reforming" criminals is a controversial topic, and there is much debate if they can truly be reformed, and if so which ones can be reformed. Obviously some can because they aren't hardened criminals...some committed crimes of passion, some just got caught doing something any of us might do, etc. But I think when most of us think in terms of criminal reform we think primarily of actual hardened criminals.

Some people know that I am a certified fitness trainer and Mrs. Face and I are both former (natural) bodybuilders, and I sort of liken reforming a criminal to transforming an overweight unfit person into a fit and helathy one. The vast majority of people yoyo in weight and condition much as criminal and druggies are in and out of their undesireable lifestyles. To actually reform a person (or perhaps a better way to put it would be help them reform themselves), or to transform that fat, unhealthy, unfit person, you have to coerce them into an actual lifestyle change. Without that lifestyle change, people will return to being fat and out of shape and criminals will return to their old ways. It does no good to lose 50 pounds and get in shape only to put it back on in a few months, any more than it does any good to put a druggie through rehab only to have him relapse back into drug use. Without a lifestyle and attitude change to WANT to be fit or to WANT to lead a normal life, efforts to help are fruitless or temporary at best.

I use that analogy mainly because it is easier for most people to identify with weight and fitness issues than with crime.

Coercing someone into a lifestyle change or an attitude change is very difficult...anyone that thinks it is a snap is dead wrong. You are talking about changing a person's self image, goals and objectives, priorities, likes and dislikes - the whole shebang.

By the way, db, although we disagree on some stuff concerning this issue, don't think I am unsympathetic to your positions. Haha...you won't believe this, but my grandfather was a prison psychiatrist, who during his career worked at reformitories and later the federal bureau of prisons at Leavenworth and other locations. I was actually born in Leavenworth (the town - not the prison) as my grandfather had gotten my dad a job as a prison guard there after WWII when he came back and couldn't find work. If you google Dr. Manly B. Root, you will find he wrote several articles over the years about how to handle inmates with drug dependencies...although they are likely outdated now as they were written long ago - he retired in about 1962 if I remember correctly. Anyway, when I was young, he and I used to talk about such things...he was always the source of my intellectual conversations as my parents were uneducated and very simple folks - not that there is anything wrong with that, but they were so different than I was we didn't communicate well at all. And yes, my grandfather was a bleeding heart liberal...


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## Prinella (Jul 12, 2011)

Now my point of view is completely uneducated.

I think that there are too many luxuaries awarded to inmates. There was a case a little while ago where the prison system paid possibly part of a prisoners gender reassignment surgery. I have heard through friends of friends of prisoners getting braces to straighten their teeth. These sorts of things to me seem to be luxuaries. Obviously if there is Necesarry medical treatment it must be done but I disagree with elective procedures. 

As for tv what's wrong with basic free to air like the rest of the population survive with.

I dont think pornography should be provided but prisoners should have the option of purchasing it.

Work and study programs need to rewarded with wages but those that choose to do nothing get nothing. Obviously the basics but no extras. There is always work that can be done heck teach em to knit and sell scarves beanies etc! 

I love the idea of low risk inmates working in the community fencing painting trash removal. Even cleanups after floods and other horrific events. Highly reformed prisoners almost due for relief could even be sent to schools to talk about making the wrong choices in life. 

I think an inmates experiences in prison need to reflect the effort he or she puts in to reforming. I think they need to work for their privileges like everyone else. I know I pay for my gym membership. 

Logically (and again this is only my opinion) that would better prepare them for life on the outside where you have to work for things. The work program would lead to higher employability.'

I'm hoping this makes sense was all typed on my phone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Prinella said:


> There is always work that can be done heck teach em to knit and sell scarves beanies etc!


I completely agree with your whole post but the above sentence is hilarious.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Where are they going to get the money to pay the wages? That's a big problem for most states in this economy, some states offer "Good Time", which gives time off sentences for good behavior and some programs that are completed. Some jobs do have paychecks but here they few and far between.

Have you ever seen what a knitting needle or crochet hook can do to somebody in the wrong hands, these are things that the average person doesn't understand, safety is the first priority. Weapons are a big problem, why would you want to give them to the inmates? It's amazing what they can make weapons out of.

Most prisons don't allow pornography inside it cause more problems than it solves. And many prisons are in areas that don't have over the air TV they have to have cable, many prisons get discounts from the cable providers.


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## PaintHorseMares (Apr 19, 2008)

Here is the inmate pay rate in NC....

Pay Grade. There are three daily rates of pay for all incentive wage assignments unless the Secretary determines that the work assignment requires special skills or training. Upon approval of the Secretary, inmates working in job assignments requiring special skills or training may be paid up to $3.00 per day. The three rates are: $.40, $.70, and $1.00. All jobs within the Division of Prisons are classified by the Chief of Program Services at a pay grade consistent with skills required to perform job assignments. All inmates assigned to the Department of Transportation inmate labor contract and to the Community Work Program are compensated at a fixed rate of $.70 per day
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

CMarie I agree with everything that you have posted.
Faceman I knew there was a liberal in your past somewhere.
Without addressing the mental issues that inmates have before , during, and after serving their time we doom them to repeat the cycle.
Not everyone, little in life is written in stone.
This discussion has been civil and informative for the most part.
Now if we could only get our elected officials to do this we might see some change. Shalom


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Everyone wants some form of prison reform, but nobody wants to pay for it. And payment is not always monetary, you start taking privileges away then there are problems on the yard, fights, murders, then you have lock downs which cause overtime so you just lost what ever savings you may had made in the so called reform. It's a viscous cycle. 

Everyone thinks 3 hots and a cot no worries, but that's not really the case, if you have never been exposed to the "Sub Culture" in the prison system it's hard to understand, like I said before it's either predator or prey, there is no kindness in prison only strength or weakness, every favor comes at a cost. 

Take an inmate that has been inside for 10 to 20 years, he's put out of the prison society were he is told when to and what to eat, when to wake up, when to go to sleep, many times with no money, no social skills, no marketable job skills, no education, no family support, and they are expected to blend back in to the mainstream that has changed drastically since he was last out there. And we wonder why they come back.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

My clients have given me an education on life in prison.
We tend to forget that those are humans that are locked up.
If you take away their dignity and hope, what little they had to begin with, most will react violently.
One of the oldest definitions of depression is anger turned inward.
When someone does not care about themselves they have little compassion for anyone else.
I am as tough on crime as anyone. That I can assure you. Liberal or not I want to be safe and secure from violence.
When we lose sight of the individual in the system we forget they are human. It is easy to write them off and to only see the crimes that they have committed. Shalom


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> My clients have given me an education on life in prison.
> We tend to forget that those are humans that are locked up.
> If you take away their dignity and hope, what little they had to begin with, most will react violently.
> One of the oldest definitions of depression is anger turned inward.
> ...


I understand what you are saying, but where most of us disagree is where to draw the line. First and foremost, prison is supposed to be a punishment and a deterrent. At one extreme is a violation of human rights via withholding medical care, food, clothing, and shelter. At the other extreme is making prison no different than living on the outside, with all the rights, priviledges, and amenities of a law abiding citizen.

Where I depart from you widely is that I feel prisoners are not entitled to, and should not be granted, dignity. There should be no dignity for a murderer or rapist or child molestor or thief...they should be held up to ridicule and looked down upon as outcasts of society. I don't personally believe dignity or trust are human rights. They must be earned. Any dignity they might regain should be earned after their release and they have demonstrated they are no longer a menace to society.

I do believe they should be provided with the necessities of life...but as I said earlier, they should pay for those necessities. They should be forced to work in the private sector or for the state, not for Davis Bacon wages, but for fair wages, and 100% of those wages should go to the prison to cover the costs of taking care of them. Someone earlier askied where would the money come from? I don't quite understand the question - if a squad of prisoners clears a field for a farmer or plants seedlings for the forest service or works in a Walmart distribution center unloading trucks, or whatever, the money comes from whatever entity they have performed the work for. I don't mean to stereotype illegal aliens, but many of them do perform menial labor like roofing and landscape maintenace. All we have to do is enforce our borders and kick the illegals out, which is what should be done anyway, and there are plenty of jobs for prisoners to do.

In my opinion, we have gone too far in making life comfortable in most of our prisons. I am not naive or uninformed...I certainly am aware that prison life is no cakewalk. But it is not supposed to be. It is supposed to be punishment and a deterrent. Those should be the primary purposes of incarceration...reform should be a collateral parameter provided to those prisoners that will benefit from the efforts and investment. I don't want my tax dollars going to try to reform a habitual criminal that has no intent of reforming. I do not believe in providing television or computer games or computers in general, or music, or any other luxury to prisoners. Prison is not a place for luxuries, it is not a place to obtain an education at taxpayer expense, and is not a place to be happy or have fun. It should be a place for work and for contemplation, and a place one does not look forward to revisiting. Again, I know prison is not a cakewalk, but I believe it is easier than it should be and I believe in our efforts to provide inmates with too high a quality of life we have lost much of the punishment and deterrent aspects. It should not be a secret, and if it is unknown to someone they are rather naive, that many criminals take a few prison stretches as the cost of doing business, and don't dread a prison sentence now and then nearly as much as they should.

I absolutely do not subscribe to the Father Flanagan theory that there is no such thing as a bad boy. Some people are bad, have always been bad, and always will be bad. I do not believe society owes those individuals anything beyond the necessities to sustain life. I do believe that every first time offendor should be offered to opportunity to reform. But as for habituals, a cot and 3 squares is all they deserve and all they should be provided, and they should work to compensate society for providing those...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I see your point Faceman.
Everyone needs something to relieve the stress in their lives. It is a part of a healthy lifestyle. Just as important as having a pupose, support from others and sense of belonging.
I have a former co-worker who is one of the best Alcohol and drug addiction counselors I know of. He has helped hundreds of people find sobriety and peace in their lives, He went to rehab 29 times, He has been sober over 20 years and just retired,
Whenever I think it is useless to even try with some clients I remind myself of his success.
Watching TV or playing a video game in prison are important tools in an inmates road to becoming a responsible citizen.
I know that is hard for some to fathom but most Mental Health programs include recreation therapy as an important part of a patients treatment plan.
Inmates need to learn how to make different choices. You do that by helping them change the way they think. If they can do that then they will change the way they live. 
Shalom


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I don't disagree totally, as usual, but it is highly unlikely that your definition and my definition of mental health problems are the same. While an alcoholic, druggie, or criminal may have a mental health problem, they don't necessarily go hand in hand. There are lots of alcoholics and druggies and criminals that do not have mental health issues. Mental illness is not defined as the inability to follow society's rules. All of us are born with instincts that are antisocial. We can't just eliminate instincts formed over 2 million years and which are deeply ingrained. For most people the desire to take what we want, kill, mate with whomever we want, and a host of other instincts are buried within us. As civilized and rational beings, we suppress those instincts. But that does not mean that when one gives in to one's instinct it is indicative of a mental illness problem...it simply means for whatever reason we are too weak to set aside our instincts and conform to a society of order. If some yahoo pulls in front of me and I pull him over and proceed to clean his plow due to road rage and go to jail, that does not mean I am mentally unsound - it merely means I acted upon my instincts to kick his butt into the next county instead of acting adhering to society's rules, which forbid assault.

What I am getting at in a roundabout way is that while a minority segment of the inmate population may have mental problems that would suggest recreation or physical activities should be included in their treatment programs, that does not justify providing those programs for the general inmate population. An activity used as a method of treatment or to compliment a treatment is not the same as that same activity masde available to the general population, resulting in satisfaction, fun, or some other gratification that should not be a part of prison life...


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

Why is it that the people who keep screwing things up always think they have the answers? In any industry, besides government, if you consistantly make mistakes, you get fired. In government, you get promoted. 

Why don't we start with legalization of drugs and allow states to regulate them? I have NEVER done an illegal drug but I can't understand criminalizing a substance that one puts into their own body. However, the penalties for crimes assiciated with drugs ( I include alcohol in this) should be very severe. How about 10 years for the 1st DUI? No plea bargaining ect..... Make the crime relate to how it hurts or can hurt others. I have a feeling people would mostly stop driving under the influence. I think the biggest crime is the disporportionate number of minorities in our prisons. I am opposed to TV's or anything else in prisons. Nonviolent prisoners should be building road signs, mowing lawns, doing road work, ect..... I also think sexual predators should be able to be executed. Anyone who could harm a child has problems that aren't fixable. I'm not talking about an 18 year old who gets caught with their 17 year old girlfriend. We have societal problems that aren't going to be cured by shrinks who think they have all of the answers because they read about it in a book somewhere. Sin is real, for everyone. We are all born sinners and we will all die sinners. There has to be some level of personal accountability or there is no hope for the person. If I violate the law, it's my fault. Period.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman a large percentage of the inmate population does indeed have emotional or mental issues. One of the underlying reasons they are there in the first place.
In order to change the way people live you must change the way they think. The two go hand in hand.
There is overwhelming evidence that alcoholism is genetic.
Addictions are categorized as a disease, They are chronic, life threatening, and can be treated.
Emotional problems and mental illness are serious conditions that are as devastaing as cancer heart disease, or any other life threatening illness. 
In this country they are culturaly viewed as a weakness. 
This hinders treatment.
Some people isolate, others commit self abuse, some lash out at soceity.
The prison system is a complicated issue which will take a very diverse solution to improve it. 
Faceman thanks for the discussion and great debate.
Bearkiller I read your post and agree with some points.
The part about minorities being over represented in the inmate population is very true. I might not agree with your point about sex offenders they are not all the same. Most will respond to treatment.
Shalom


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## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

Bearkiller said:


> I also think sexual predators should be able to be executed. Anyone who could harm a child has problems that aren't fixable. I'm not talking about an 18 year old who gets caught with their 17 year old girlfriend. We have societal problems that aren't going to be cured by shrinks who think they have all of the answers because they read about it in a book somewhere. Sin is real, for everyone. We are all born sinners and we will all die sinners. There has to be some level of personal accountability or there is no hope for the person. If I violate the law, it's my fault. Period.


I agree with this 100%.. I currently am personally involved in a case concerning a sexual predator and I'm doing everything possible within my power to make sure he gets the book, chair, desk..everything thrown at him. There is NO excuse for ANY sexual predator, there is no reason on why they do what they do. Period. I will keep this case up and running until I can't do anything else, and as of now he is going for child molestation, bedding a minor, statutory rape, kidnapping, child abuse..I could go on..but the point is..He hurt a child that I am close to and I would go to jail with a smile on my face for beating the snot out of him if it were possible. There is NO excuse for this. There is a special corner in hell for sexual predators and to me, they are all one in the same...Why else would they have to be labeled as a "Sexual Predator" and have to have that label follow them around for life. A sin is a sin, no matter what it is..Child molesting is child molesting, no matter what it is. End of story.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I have about a million opinions on all of this. I am a foster parent of delinquent youth, the majority of them are already involved in the criminal justice system. 

Firstly, while I disagree with dba on quite a few things, it's rather offensive to imply that she doesn't care about the victims because she still cares about those who commit the crimes. It's not like you can only care about one person in this situation - and I would argue that trying to help the criminal actually is caring a whole lot about victims because you are trying to prevent more being created. 

I am pleased that dba has the views she does, it is so easy to burn out in those types of professions, and as long as she is still committed, she is preventing further victims with the criminals that she can reach. I think that's a pretty big deal, it's really hard to change criminal ways of thinking when it's so much easier to make your life that way than change it. Of course the success rates are going to be low - it's hard to make someone want to work for minimum wage when they can earn a months worth of earnings in an hour - and when everyone around them is doing it. 

It is entirely true that you can see who you can reach, and who is too far gone. I see that with lots of 'my' kids, however sometimes they prove you wrong, on both sides of the argument. Kids you think you have reached, go on to mess up and kids who were too far gone, do well. Now it's a little different because my guys are kids, well usually 16-21 yrs. But I think that's exactly my point.... 

It's entirely too late to reach out to adult prisoners. We (as a society) are closing the barn door after the horses have bolted. I would imagine that almost every parent here can name a bad kid at their children's school - it doesn't take a PhD to recognize it. So how about we (society) do something a little sooner? Wouldn't that have the potential to create less victims of crime? Many of us know kids growing up in crappy situations - well lets make more help available right then, right now. 

Of course it's totally up to the individual to make a change, but I think we can help more earlier on. It's common sense, and while most studies back it up - I don't think we need the studies, we just need to think about where to put our resources. 

I have a former kid who is in prison, he is going to be there for a good amount of time. I believe when he comes out, he will go back again before too long. His writing was on the wall when he came to me. He was 19 when he moved in with me, he had been in foster care for most of his life, home hopped, and was not an easy kid. He was also completely crossed eyed, so much so that it gave him terrible headaches. As he was in foster care all medical costs were 100% covered. However no previous foster parent (guessing) wanted to deal with his rehab from surgery - he was 20 when he had the surgery when he lived with me. How appalling that those paid to care for him before me just didn't care enough. 

However, there is a tough love aspect that just needs to be part of the compassion. This same kid writes to me all the time, and I have not written back in a long time - I will just not yet. Every time he writes he talks about girls I need to friend on FB, just dumb stuff - and nothing about thinking about what he did or why he is in prison. He needs to think about what is important to him and why he is there. I will write to him, but I think it does him no harm to have some alone time. He needs to realize what he has made of his life, and he needs to wake up and forget about the girls who won't even remember his name when he is released. 

I don't believe that prison is a deterrent, in the same way that most criminals would not mug an old lady who is talking to a cop - they do the crimes because they think they will get away with them. If they knew they would immediately be caught, they wouldn't do the crime in that moment. 

dba, I strongly disagree with this:



dbarabians said:


> I might not agree with your point about sex offenders they are not all the same. Most will respond to treatment.


Have you studied sex offenders specifically? While no two people are the same, their lines of thought are text book. I challenge you to meet a SO who does not use extensive thinking errors and manipulation. Of course we all use thinking errors, but it's the extent that they use them. Their behaviors are uniform and predictable. 

There are not good success rates of treating adult SOs, the good success comes from treating the juveniles. Please point me to a study which shows a low reoffense rate with adults, and I will point you to 10 more studies which prove it to be the opposite. I would flat out state that you are absolutely wrong.


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## TaMMa89 (Apr 12, 2008)

As coming from social field myself, I can see your point db. Tho in that case I'm very wary as to commenting since don't have practical experience about criminals myself, tho I know some people who've been in prison. My knowledge bases on very limited theoretical knowledge.

Also I'm more interested in it which causes criminality and how this could be prevented, especially how society could help to prevent that. I do believe broken home scenario and there have to be reason why some people choose criminal path at some particular point while some others coming from similar environments don't. I think that finding out that could help to prevent some criminality. I'd believe that it's part of learning from parents and other people close to you. I'd believe that it's part of your characteristics and possibilities that the society offers to you. I'd believe that it's part of your choices. I'd also believe that your social contacts play a huge role. They can feed the criminal path or steer you away from it.

Some may think that I live in fantasy land but I do believe that there are just very, very few people who are _thoroughly bad_. My view is that everyone wants to be accepted and good and if you ask a child what they want to be while being adults, none of them say 'I want to be criminal in prison'. Even sure you make choices of your own, I don't believe that you can control your life 100%. There are risky situations and processes which cause marginalization. As a part of my social career studies, I've for example bumped into fact that conditions like ADHD can cause higher risk of criminality unless recognized and considered/treated properly. That's why I believe that becoing criminal is a mix of bad personal choices and other bad conditions. Wrong choices in wrong places. Also I think that underlying issues should be treated or at least try to be treated and in most of cases, there are these reasons. There's some reason why someone sees 'easy money' more attractive than making proper life and career. I do believe that there are those ones who might are just lazy but I do also believe that there is a huge bunch of others who've other reasons. May they haven't even see the 'other side' but just criminal life? I agree with AlexS, the signals should be noticed early and the situation should be interfered at early stage.

My opinion is that items like cable tv or pornography should be allowed if there's some deeper aim behind them. Also I see that being locked in prison will most probably isolate you from the society and all support, rehabilitating and help should be available during the prison time and especially after that. Besides punishment, prison should be rehabilitating place. There need to be hope. I think that we have to ask ourselves do we offer enough support (housing where to start, peer support, counselling, work possibilities) and choices for those who are released? I know that cultural context plays role there since I'm Finnish and even we both live in Western culture, our culture is still different compared to American, but my opinion is that this field should be developed at least here. Otherwise I just comment that everyone of us should have our human dignity and become treated that way, despite of our background or status. You can decide yourself if cables etc are needed for that or not. And just for making if clearer, with my thought of human dignity I'm not by any meaning trying to play down victims of those criminals, sure their sufferings are very real and those crimes shouldn't have happened.

As to those ones who aren't willing to respond any kind of treatment or support but are too deep into that criminal lifestyle, I don't know what to do... very sad cases, may we can just try and try and hope, as frustrating it is.

As said, not any personal experience, just some theoretical thoughts.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> Faceman a large percentage of the inmate population does indeed have emotional or mental issues. One of the underlying reasons they are there in the first place.
> In order to change the way people live you must change the way they think. The two go hand in hand.
> There is overwhelming evidence that alcoholism is genetic.
> Addictions are categorized as a disease, They are chronic, life threatening, and can be treated.
> ...


Again, I don't disagree with the conditions you mention, however we disagree with our opinion of what is and what isn't a mental disorder. When a sober alcoholic falls off the wagon, or a junkie resumes usage, that is not necessarily an indicator of mental illness...it is a sign of a lack of willpower and character. The fact that the disease is genetic is irrelevant. The disease does not force you to drink if you are sober - it creates a dependenfcy when you do drink...those are two completely different things. Alcoholism is a dormant disease that is not an issue until you trigger it. While I understand that some alcoholics are so mentally untable they may not be able to make rational decisions (just as mentally unstable people in the general population), there is no known tie to alcoholism and mental illness, so it is illogical to assume the incidence of mental illness is any higher in the universe of alcoholics than it is in the universe of the general population. I of course understand that alcoholics have more emotional issues and stressful experiences than non alcoholics, but that doesn't have anything directly to do with mental illness. Weakness in character that make a person unable to cope with life's ups and downs is not mental illness. This applies to non alcoholics as well - we need to flush our Zolofts and such down the toilett and find where our backbone is.

I am as sympathetic as anyone toward people that truly are mentally ill, and believe they should be treated. But I don't consider a person that doesn't have the character to stay on the wagon when sober or a person that has a bad day at work and pops a tranq to be mentally ill. Our fathers and grandfathers didn't have this problem...it has become a cultural issue. True mental illness has always been a problem, of course, but we have become a society that can't get through the day without popping a pill, and it wasn't always that way. We have become a weaker and weaker in character society. This is, in my opinion, the primary reason for the differences in this country and others as you have alluded to several times. I, like you, have lived in other countries - Germany, Panama, China, and Indonesia to be precise, and have traveled in scores of other countries, and as far as character goes, I am sad to say I place the average American of today at or near the bottom. This is a radical departure from two generations ago, and I have to be honest with you - I place the majority of the blame on the radical liberalism that began under LBJ in the 60's.

Alex, db is a he...


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

I got to page 4 and had to skip the rest. I guess I am one of those people who have NO sympathy for those criminals who chose to break the law, who chose to rape, murder, steal, maim, or any other crime that they committed. Whatever happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY?! 

Bravo to those who wish to give some of these scum bags a 2nd, 3rd, or multiple chances, who want to say they are good people deep down, they just need a chance. You keep doing that. 

At 15 my daughter was raped by a 19 year old P.O.S. Took me a year to get a conviction and then deported from the USA. His family begged me to be lenient, that their son didn't mean to hurt my daughter, that he had no one in Belize to go to. I looked at his family and told them, not my problem and I hope he rotted in Hades for what he did. You know, that "poor boy" who came from a poor family, would smirk and laugh at me as we walked out of court each time there was a continuance, who's friends threatened to slit my horses throat, to kidnap my kindergarten age son if I went through with the charges. Excuse me for not feeling sorry for him. 

I have had a stalker, a 4 page rap sheet on him and he was well known in town. Police wouldn't do anything about him calling me or sending me disgusting letters in the mail, going to my horse shows. As an EMT I ran him a few times, one time i threatened him that if he thought to touch me in any inappropriate manner I would take the largest needle we had on the rig and he would find it in a very painful place it wasn't meant to go into. I was very efficient in my care, I treated him and my crew and I delivered him to the ER. Do I care what happens to him? Absolutely not, people like him are oxygen thieves. 

So those in prison are there for a reason, they broke the law and they consciously did so knowing what the right and wrong are about it. I have NO sympathy for them, I have no love or warm fuzzy feelings for them and I hate that my hard earned tax dollars that my husband I work hard for go to house them in a semblance of an easy life, as it may be. I also wish that other states would take up TX fast track on the death penalty. California is a bunch of granola eating hippies who refuse to have a death penalty where they get an injection and you have another space for another scum bag. Manson has been living off the milk of society for years, why is it we put down a rabid dog but not a rabid human?!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

AlexS said:


> Have you studied sex offenders specifically? While no two people are the same, their lines of thought are text book. I challenge you to meet a SO who does not use extensive thinking errors and manipulation. Of course we all use thinking errors, but it's the extent that they use them. Their behaviors are uniform and predictable.
> 
> There are not good success rates of treating adult SOs, the good success comes from treating the juveniles. Please point me to a study which shows a low reoffense rate with adults, and I will point you to 10 more studies which prove it to be the opposite. I would flat out state that you are absolutely wrong.


100% agree. Personally I think any adult raping a kid 10 years old or so and under should be permanently fixed. Simply because they don't stop, and because it's something that has _no excuse_ what so ever IMO. I believe in Europe they offer a chemical "castration" to SOs.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

GreySorrel said:


> At 15 my daughter was raped by a 19 year old P.O.S.


I'm so sorry, GS! BTW I'd do the same if I was in your position. 

We had a (17 yo or so) boy with the down syndrome in my neighborhood back when I was a teenager, who had an "interest" for the little girls (clearly run by hormones, of course). I'll never forget when I came across him dragging my neighbor's 7 years old to the basement. I was 15 or 16 back then, and no adults around, so all I could do is pick a big stick and threaten him to let her go. It was very scary though. What IF someone wouldn't be around! 

I did come across "normal" SOs as well several times in my life. It's simply nasty and disgusting, and in many situations you are rather unprotected (unless you can stand for yourself, which is not something every person can do unfortunately).


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

What I forgot to say is he slipped something in her drink as she woke up with this animal on her, her supposed best friend was in the living room while she was screaming for help. Am I still bitter over it? Absolutely and I will NEVER find a shred of compassion for those who break the law knowing what they are doing.

Good on you for standing up and helping that little girl!! Lord knows what may of happened if you hadn't come along.


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## redpony (Apr 17, 2012)

When my horse or children (grown now) does something bad they get a painful punishment followed by a redirection of the correct thing to do. This often has to be repeated several times before they "get it". If I were to simply pop them a good one and walk away, nothing would change. I don't have the answers about how to do it but simply imprisioning criminals (even if harsh conditions) alone will not fix things. I also must add that I don't believe pornography is appropriate for inmates. I mean, seriously, when have you ever seen a super hot guy being totally disrespected and humiliated in such? Actually, I think they should be forced to watch "chick flicks". My DH considers it punishment :/


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

kitten_Val said:


> 100% agree. Personally I think any adult raping a kid 10 years old or so and under should be permanently fixed. Simply because they don't stop, and because it's something that has _no excuse_ what so ever IMO. I believe in Europe they offer a chemical "castration" to SOs.


The problem with chemical castration is many times the pedophile or serial rapist will just use something else to penetrate the victim. I does work on some but not all.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

cmarie said:


> The problem with chemical castration is many times the pedophile or serial rapist will just use something else to penetrate the victim. I does work on some but not all.


Yes, you are right. I've read some stories (don't want to go into details since we have kids on forum), and they did sound horrid. I assume it's a mental issue you can't go around even with medications.

My understanding was chemical one is something temp, not perm (I never read the full details on how it works), and not forced, but rather "as you wish" in exchange for less years or better conditions.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

Faceman said:


> Alex, db is a he...


Oops sorry DB, I tend to assume as the majority of people here are female.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Pedophiles are wired different they are attracted to young people as you or I would be attracted to blonds or dark hair or what ever. There is no real cure so to say for it, a few benefit from long term therapy but most don't.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

cmarie said:


> Pedophiles are wired different they are attracted to young people as you or I would be attracted to blonds or dark hair or what ever.


Interesting to know. Is there any research on it by any chance? I'd think it's a mental deviation (if this is a right word to use).


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## texasgal (Jul 25, 2008)

I'll agree that pedophiles are wired different .. and may be attracted to young people, however it doesn't go hand in hand with knowing right from wrong.

I might be attracted to, say, my sister's husband, or my cousin, or my boss, but my moral compass tells me that I am not an animal that has to act on my impulses, and that it would be inappropriate to act on my "attraction" .. so I don't.

They KNOW it's wrong .. that's why they hide it ..

I don't believe they've linked the "I'm attracted to little boys" gene with the "I can't control my impulses" gene. 

imo


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

There's tons of research on it out there. Texasgal I really don't know if it's genetic, I believe it's more environmental, most of the ones I worked with had some event in their childhood, and as you said they all had no impulse control. And most will reoffend when released from prison.


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## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

I should clarify my statement above I'm talking about true pedophiles, there are different classifications of sex offenders. In my experience there is no fixing true pedophiles and serial rapists. There is a difference in say a high school relationship where the girl is underage and the boy over, these types of cases rarely reoffend sexually anyway.


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## Bearkiller (Aug 10, 2011)

Does it matter if it's genetic? Seems to me that that would be one place that science could be useful in eliminating certain genes. 

I do know that there was a study done a while back that indicated that all of these "tough" laws regarding sexual predators were actually contributing to these victims being killed. When someone is getting a life sentence anyway, they (the predators) were basically coming to the conclusion that it was better to kill the witnesses (victims) than it was to let them go and be able to testify.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

kitten_Val said:


> Interesting to know. Is there any research on it by any chance? I'd think it's a mental deviation (if this is a right word to use).


I don't know if there is any research that is conclusive. And I don't believe for a minute it is "genetic" in the truest sense of the word.

Pedaphilia is defined, as near as I can tell, by a person beyond puberty having sex with a person who has not reached puberty. Now I don't think it is any secret that men are attracted sexually to young women/girls in their very late teens and early 20's...and it is no secret why...we have an instinct to be attracted to women in their prime child bearing age - that is simple biology and instinct. But being attracted to a prepubescent girl is, in my opinion, a mental deviation as you say. That goes beyond the natural attraction to younger women and into a zone that cannot be explained or justified by natural instincts. As to what causes a person to be that deviant, I haven't a clue as I have not studied it in depth. As to men that are attracted to prepubescent boys, I don't think either my logic or imagination can even take me close enough to that to consider the reasons - it is just too far in outer space for me.

From everything I have heard and read, and I am certainly no expert and haven't read everything, the consensus appears to be that pedophiles cannot be "cured", but can only suppress their urges - much like an alcoholic has the ability to become and stay sober, but is still physically an alcoholic.

I honestly have no sympathy for pedophiles. Even though they may be deviant and have unnatural urges, no one is holding a gun to their head to force them to act on those urges. We all are given the freedom of choice in our actions by nature and/or a creator. We may have no control over our urges and instincts, but one of the benchmarks of being civilized is to suppress urges which are unacceptable and/or harmful to others. People that are unable to suppress dangerous instincts or urges are IMO not fit to live freely in society and should be removed. I think it is only fair to give a first and only time offendor the opportunity to prove themselves after serving a prison term, but for multiple or repeat offendors, I'm afraid I fall into the castrate and lock them up and throw away the key crowd. To me, there is no greater folly or idiocy of society than to parole or release a murderer or child molestor only to see them find another victim and repeat their crime. I'm afraid I'm a bit of a hard a$$ when it comes to child molestors...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Alexs S you can call me a she It doesn't make me one and I've been called a lot of things by different people and some of it was indeed true. LOL
My masculinity is intact. Though on this forum gelding does seem to be very popular. LOL
There are different levels of sex offenders. A lot of people that are convicted of low level offenses can be treated.
Sexual predators however have very little chance of reforming.
Castration does not reduce the urge in some cases just the ability.
I have had good success with those with low level risks. Using a combination of medication and cognitive therapy.
Not so with child molesters or rapist.
Of these I have had a few clients and they made my skin crawl.
TaMMa and Alex I agree. Prevention should be part of the solution as well as support after the sentence has been served.
Yes the there are studies showing that serial sexual predators have become more violent since harsher sentences have been instituted.
The problem with hardened sexual criminals is they do not remain locked up and are released back into soceity.
As I posted I have been assaulted. Three young men are serving time.
I beleive they deserve it and I hope they will learn from their time served and will enter soceity as changed individuals.
Faceman, alcohol and drugs are mind altering chemicals.

Most people that abuse them are trying to escape the reality of their lives for whatever reason.
The disease of addiction is not some symptom of a moral weakness or lack of character. How different individuals respond to the issues that occur in their lives depends a lot on how they perceive the world they live in. The events that have shaped their lives as well as their emotional and mental well being.
If it were a case of moral weakness alcohol and drug addiction would not IMO be as widespread and as devasting.
OH and about zoloft and prozac I think that they should put it in the drinking water. . Shalom


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> The disease of addiction is not some symptom of a moral weakness or lack of character. How different individuals respond to the issues that occur in their lives depends a lot on how they perceive the world they live in. The events that have shaped their lives as well as their emotional and mental well being.
> If it were a case of moral weakness alcohol and drug addiction would not IMO be as widespread and as devasting.
> OH and about zoloft and prozac I think that they should put it in the drinking water. . Shalom


We disagree on some things, agree on others, but in this case it is not a matter of opinion.

When an alcoholic dries out and becomes sober, he (or she) becomes rational - at least if they haven't been on skid row for 40 years and their brain is pickled. Assuming he has passed the point of denial and knows he is an alcoholic he knows very well what will happen when he takes that drink. As the good Father we both know of once said, first the man takes a drink, then the drink takes a drink then the drink takes the man. When a sober alcoholic takes up drinking again, it is INDEED a weakness in character. Whatever reason causes them to not be able to cope with life is irrelevant. All of us have issues in our lives. People of strong character cope with life's ups and downs. People of weak character cannot cope.

I am fully aware that alcoholism is a disease. I am also fully aware alcohol and drugs are mind altering - I am not stupid. But I am not living in a fantasy world either. A sober alcoholic picks up his next drink because he does not have the moral character, pride, and backbone not to...pure and simple. 

I do not disrespect those that have the disease. But I have no respect for those that return to drinking after being sober. I do not believe we were put on this Earth to be led through life by the hand, and under the influence of mind altering drugs - be they alcohol, illegal, or PRESCRIBED mind altering drugs. There was a time when man faced life's daily challenges, and it is both sad and disgusting to look around and see that so many of us have become lumps of jelly that must have outside help to hold our shape. As a society, we are shells of what we once were - weak, brittle, fragile shells.

As to your last statement, I certainly hope that was meant tongue in cheek...


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## tempest (Jan 26, 2009)

dbarabians said:


> A lot of people that are convicted of low level offenses can be treated.


You do realize that a lot of the people who are convicted of lower level sex crimes are teenagers who had sex with their underaged boyfriend/girlfriend and got in trouble with that person's parents? So do they need to be treated for a mental disease?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman, you are not without intelligence. In fact you have an abundance of it. If any of my post imply that I apologize.
The two of us will disagree on many things. Not because either of us is wrong we view things from different angles.
The main thing about treating addiction is that the addict must desire change in his life. Complete change. They must make a clean break from most of the people they know, the way they think, and their enviroment.
One alcoholic put it very well " you must change the faces and the places around you".
I'm not trying to change how you think about this. Just explaining how I do. 
I think that is what I like about our conversations and others on this forum. We have our opinions, yet we try and understand the opinions of others. Mostly.
About the zoloft statement, yes It was meant in jest. I do feel a lot of people could benefit from such medication at some point in their lives.
These type of drugs do not in themselves cure the problem. They are very important tools in helping people with emotional issues. If used in conjunction with other forms of treatment.
There are drugs that will not allow an addict to get high if they abuse other drugs. They are used in the treatment of herion addiction with great success.
Most addicts do not have access to insurance to get treatment or the medication. Shalom


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## northwesten (Apr 28, 2012)

If your in Prison you lose your civil rights. Too me Prison should have you do some work for the local area "state" clearing up trash etc. Prison should not be a way of life that you sit on your butt and get fat. 

The fact Prison has cable TV is WRONG! period. If they want to do something relaxing they can talk to each other and give each other hugs. Get a newspaper or books and get them some courses that could get them a trade job when they leave Prison. Though working is good for them too because your out doing something productive. 

Though prison needs to be not so welcoming but safe. Otherwise some folks be happy stay in a simple life style not to worry about rent or food or healthcare etc. 

If the Prison guards get power tripping then where you have a department to make sure they don't run around thinking they own the place or be above the law. Which sadly some police department act that way and sadly too much covering up than making sure cops and prison guards keep a professional standards. BTW I do like cops and I know some cops in US and UK but there are bad ones that get away with it even if it's on youtube. 

Like I was outraged about the European human right courts saying Voting is a human Right which is not. It is a civil right not a human right. So folks in the UK now can vote in elections when as they are in prisons. When they leave the prisons and done there time you can vote again. Of course people in UK and government weren't too happy about the EU imposing this on us.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

dbarabians said:


> The main thing about treating addiction is that the addict must desire change in his life. Complete change. They must make a clean break from most of the people they know, the way they think, and their enviroment.
> One alcoholic put it very well " you must change the faces and the places around you".


I agree completely...but that is my underlying point.

That is the second time you have alluded to that, and (at least to me) you are contradicting yourself. It takes strength of character to do what you have mentioned above. Only those with that strength of character will succeed. Yet you have stated elsewhere repeatedly that character is not an issue. To list the reasons it takes to become permanently sober, all of which are character issues, and then to turn around and say character is not an issue, is contradictory.

Your counseling should, or at least I assume it should, have the same objective as the business counseling I have done with women, minorities, and vets...not to teach or preach, but to function as a stimulus to help our clients discover, release, and enhancere their strength of character - to not only understand the opportunities available to them, but to bring the desire to be accepted and to succeed that we all have deep within us to the surface and to draw upon that character to abandon their former train of thought and put forth the effort to achieve whatever goals they may have.

The whole shooting match revolves around character and inner strength. Without the desire to become sober and the inner strength of character to achieve it an alcoholic cannot and never will recover...


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> About the zoloft statement, yes It was meant in jest. I do feel a lot of people could benefit from such medication at some point in their lives.
> These type of drugs do not in themselves cure the problem. They are very important tools in helping people with emotional issues.


See, I think this is wrong. I think we are overmedicated as a society as it is. Instead of teaching kids how to handle disappointment, we medicate them to numb the pain. Instead of teaching self-control and patience, we medicate them into compliance. These kids grow into adults who cannot handle life.


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## northwesten (Apr 28, 2012)

Horse Poor said:


> See, I think this is wrong. I think we are overmedicated as a society as it is. Instead of teaching kids how to handle disappointment, we medicate them to numb the pain. Instead of teaching self-control and patience, we medicate them into compliance. These kids grow into adults who cannot handle life.


YES!! omg yes! you guys do over medicate over such simple things in life. I mean people don't feel like they want to get out of bed to work and unhappy means they are suffering depression. So they get meds for it instead of changing their life style... 
I don't know any other country that hits the meds so hard. I am also so surprised but same time angry how much drug company's push on advertisements on anti depressants and other drugs on TV. Let the doctors do there jobs and use what think best not TV ads.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Just as a side comment (since this is a horse forum)... One of the counties here created a "horse rescue for inmates" (I did read about it in my local newspaper). Those with rather minor violations are allowed to work with rescued TBs, and the program also teaches them the basics of care, farming (in some way), etc. I've heard it's been quite a successful attempt.


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## northwesten (Apr 28, 2012)

kitten_Val said:


> Just as a side comment (since this is a horse forum)... One of the counties here created a "horse rescue for inmates" (I did read about it in my local newspaper). Those with rather minor violations are allowed to work with rescued TBs, and the program also teaches them the basics of care, farming (in some way), etc. I've heard it's been quite a successful attempt.


mm could you get us the link for this? also i think this could be a good thing as you said farming and animal care. Again this could be used to open a new door of career for them...


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

northwesten said:


> mm could you get us the link for this? also i think this could be a good thing as you said farming and animal care. Again this could be used to open a new door of career for them...


north, I'll try to find it, but can't promise (I read it on paper last year, not on-line).


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

kitten_Val said:


> Those with rather minor violations are allowed to work with rescued TBs, and the program also teaches them the basics of care, farming (in some way), etc. I've heard it's been quite a successful attempt.


Val, TRF does that here in VA. In fact, one of their biggest farms is set right outside the prison, and the inmates not only work with horses, but dairy cattle as well.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

Speed Racer said:


> Val, TRF does that here in VA. In fact, one of their biggest farms is set right outside the prison, and the inmates not only work with horses, but dairy cattle as well.


SR, I think it's one of those good combinations of stress relief, work, and building skills. 

north, here is a different article I found: Prison Inmates Operate Horse Rescue Farm « CBS Baltimore


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Horse poor depression affects not only your mood how your brain functions. There are chemicals that your brain releases that help your brain to function normally. These chemicals are important.
The longer one is depressed the less the chemicals are released.
They are like electric currents. The reduction in chemicals makes the depression worse. It is a cycle that if not interuppted will prolong the depression. Medication is a tool in the treatment plan.
Anti depressants help restart the brains normal function. They do not work overnight but can help reduce the affects of depression. The patient becomes more receptive to treatment. They do not cure depression they allow us to think rationally and improve our moods.
Most people will only need them for a short time. Some because of other factors will need them for the rest of their lives.
That is a very simple definition that I use when explaining the physical aspects of depression. I do it a lot better vocally.
Please do not discount these drugs they have helped millions overcome depression and resume full lives. Shalom


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I think that's what that TV program "Pitbulls and Parolees" is based upon too, although I don't know how much is TV hype.

Northwesten, you have it a little bit backwards. It is the doctors to blame - not the drug companies. Tranqs are not over the counter, but prescription drugs. Doctors overprescribe them horribly. I have been given prescriptions for Zoloft and Prozac many times and have never taken one. When I get depressed or stressed out I turn to diet and exercise and can accomplish the same thing as taking drugs.

Although I don't take them (and wouldn't), I don't condemn tranqs - they are useful for short term use to help people cope, The problem is doctors permit people to be on their happy pills for years instead of months, so they become mentally dependent upon them. You can become mentally dependent on anything...


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## northwesten (Apr 28, 2012)

Faceman said:


> I think that's what that TV program "Pitbulls and Parolees" is based upon too, although I don't know how much is TV hype.
> 
> Northwesten, you have it a little bit backwards. It is the doctors to blame - not the drug companies. Tranqs are not over the counter, but prescription drugs. Doctors overprescribe them horribly. I have been given prescriptions for Zoloft and Prozac many times and have never taken one. When I get depressed or stressed out I turn to diet and exercise and can accomplish the same thing as taking drugs.
> 
> Although I don't take them (and wouldn't), I don't condemn tranqs - they are useful for short term use to help people cope, The problem is doctors permit people to be on their happy pills for years instead of months, so they become mentally dependent upon them. You can become mentally dependent on anything...


yes is true! then I think it can be hand to hand then really. Drug company's + doctors is a bad mixes when folks don't do anything in their life. My view is drug company's shouldn't advertise thing that's not over the counter. 

-------------

BTW I didn't catch the name who posted how depression works and I know how they work. Even so the basic steps to get out of it is life style not pills. 

I going to put this out there but last 2 years my wife thought I needed to see a doctor about depression. I was very very unhappy how thing been going. I told her I not suffering from depression I suffering from crap life. Now I couldn't doing anything I love doing until 6 weeks ago I was riding again and meeting new folks. filed bankruptcy and cleared our debit that was making me not do anything and been VERY tight on food. 

My wife noticed how instantly I became happy I have become. Hell even my doctor thought I needed treatment but I refused completely. money and diet and hobbies and work plays big part. There are many folks bored and unhappy with work etc but these fixes can be done in some ways by not taking the bill. I will say most of them can do something about it with out any medical help. 

I know 8 folks who was getting treatment and 6 of them served in the wars in Iraq and afgan and lost friends etc and 1 because they lost a child. When dramatic events happen treatment is there to help.


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## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Ironically, we live in the most luxurious, carefree, and leisurely time in the history of man, yet that very sedentary lifestyle and poor diet eliminate natural factors which reduce stress and produce contentment. I'm afraid our unhealthy lifestyles may exceed medical progress, which so far has done a good job of keeping us alive, and we may see a decline in life expectancies in the next couple of generations...


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Faceman you are correct in using diet and exercise.
However, if you or anyone is experiencing depression that last more than 6 months you need to consult a DR. Diet and excercise are not effective enough for those who are servely and chronically depressed for long periods of time.
Depression is a serious diesease and can be treated very well. The earlier the better.
North your post lead me to believe that you were not chronically or severly depressed. People who are need to seek medical attention.
Faceman and whoever posted about the inmates and the TBs, that is one of my points. Everyone needs a purpose in life and to do something that is worthwhile. Those programs with the pitbulls and horses work.
the self esteem of the inmate or parolee is improved drastically. Thus changing their lives and improving their future.
I tell my clients they all need to have a job, have a friend, and a hobby.
This will give you somewhere to go, someone to talk to when you get there and something to talk about. Shalom


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## Horse Poor (Aug 20, 2008)

Faceman said:


> When I get depressed or stressed out I turn to diet and exercise and can accomplish the same thing as taking drugs.


YES! And it's not only good for adults, but kids too - especially teens. Tired kids don't get into trouble.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

*This is important.*

Everyone I must advise , that if you are taking medication for depression or anxiety, it is very important that you seek medical advice before stopping or changing the dosage. This is important.
I do not mean to challenge any one who has posted their opinions about the medication.
Your depression can worsen to the point of harming yourself or others. Consult a DR before making any changes. 
Shalom


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