# Which do you use?



## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

So I'm just a tad bit confused, and I'm not sure if there is a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this, so I don't mind conflicting answers.

As you all know, Sour started driving about a month ago, and we have since driven out 5 times. She's doing wonderful and we began trotting for the first time a week ago. No problems at all, and my trainer is very pleased with how she's doing. She's finally figuring out that she can stretch into the harness which is making things much nicer for her, and she's very light in the mouth most of the time.

What I'm confused about though, is this. My trainer has taught me that to cue her, I should use verbal commands ('gee' 'haw' 'walk on' 'trot' 'ease up' and 'trot') paired with a light wiggle or tap of the reins to go and light pressure when I want her to woah or turn- which I have done. Is this correct though? In a lot of youtube videos (yes, I realize they arent always right) and with a few friends, I've noticed that they do not signal 'go' or transitions to a trot or canter with their reins, but rather they use a driving whip. My trainer has never had me use a driving whip whatsoever.

Is the way we're doing it incorrect? I'm starting to notice that I have to cue her a bit harder when turning and starting than when we first started out, and I'm wondering if that's because I'm doing it wrong. After all, using the reins to tap her on the butt is also sending a 'wave' to her mouth, which might be bothering her or hardening her mouth. Our other horses are trained to move out with a tap from the reins, and one is hard mouthed and the other is soft- so maybe its something else, but I just thought I'd check to clear things up a bit. If I am contributing to her mouth hardening, I want to stop- and I would think that I should switch to a whip before she's completely trained.

Also, if I am right about this and I should be using a driving whip, would a lunge whip be an alright substitute for the time being? it's about the same length (but heavier for me than a driving whip probably) and I could just loop the string around it so that it only dangles down a tiny bit. Would it work the same?

Thanks in advance everyone!


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

When driving, my Dad never would "wiggle" the reins on their butt and he never carried a whip either. What he would do is give them the verbal cue to go forward, if they didn't respond to that, he would smooch to them, and if they still didn't respond, he would flick the tail end of a line at their butt. Like you said, the wiggling reins can make them immune to the smaller movements of the reins so that your cues have to get bigger/harder.

As for the turning/stopping/etc, Dad would always do about the same as you, a vocal _and_ rein cue. Over time, though, he was usually able to stop using the reins to stop turn and have them working solely off of verbal cues. The only difference there is that he never used "gee" or "haw", he would always use the name of the horse/mule on that side to turn (Tiny was on the right side so Dad would say "Tiny" to turn right...same with "Buster" on the left).


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Ah, ok. So atleast I know that I'm not the only one who uses that technique! 

Sour definitely doesn't 'gee' or 'haw' just on verbal command yet, as she tends to mix the two up or starts weaving she forgets both of them (silly girl...) but she goes off of verbal commands for everything else. I would like her to be very reliable and light with the reins as well though, which is why I'm a bit worried. Once she starts working this October, she'll be expected to move out and keep her pace/maneuver people and obstacles with me and a passenger or two in the cart, and she has to be able to work off of just my reins at times when I'm talking to the customer as we're going along.

Also, should I be using her name when I give her commands? I haven't been doing that, but she seems to know her name atleast a little, as she comes when I call her in the pasture and will turn towards me if she's tied and I call her. I could be wrong though.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I think I may have written that a bit confusingly. What dad would do is to take both lines in one hand and then use the end of one of the lines (that was hanging behind him) as a bit of a whip...the way you would with the end of a lead rope. He would never use the lines between his hands and the bit for anything other than turning/stopping.

I wouldn't use her name if she is being driven single. We've only ever used the names on teams of 2. I'm sure she'll get solid on her commands eventually, she's still very young and very green. Just from the sound of how fast she's picking it all up though, it may not be very long before she's working on only verbal.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

Ah, I see. So I'm still doing it differently than your dad did, as my trainer is having me wiggle the rein that is between my hands and her mouth which is why Imentioned it being much like a 'wave' of energy going towards her mouth. My reins are together, but they buckle so I suppose I could unbuckle them and use just the ends if nothing else!

Yes, I'm actually very suprised by how tolerant and smart she is with all of this. She seems to be very level headed and can get herself out of sticky situations the moment she gets herself into them...most of the time xD

The only problem I'm really having with her is backing, which I know is a hard thing for young ones to get because at one moment they're being asked to move away from pressure, and the next, they're being asked to create pressure by pushing back! Its another reason I wanted to clear all of this up though, because I wanted her to be as light when backing as she is when turning or moving forwards. I can't stand it when people yank back on the horse's mouth to back them up. I'll be doing more ground work for backing though, I think- to help. I think thats part of the problem.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

bump. Can anyone else give me their opinions? ^^ I don't want to be doing the wrong thing!


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

Endiku said:


> So I'm just a tad bit confused, and I'm not sure if there is a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this, so I don't mind conflicting answers.
> 
> As you all know, Sour started driving about a month ago, and we have since driven out 5 times. She's doing wonderful and we began trotting for the first time a week ago. No problems at all, and my trainer is very pleased with how she's doing. She's finally figuring out that she can stretch into the harness which is making things much nicer for her, and she's very light in the mouth most of the time.
> 
> ...


 its time you become the trainer use your voice she will listen to you the wip realey is the extention of your but if your hores if foward going you can dispence with it the words i use with tricky and (tammy in loveing memory) was woa stop walk trot working trot (jogging) extended trot (pace) and canter only canter when you have a good repore with your horse and also left and right can i ask you to try some thing ask your horse pony to lift a fore leg say left one to ask for a titbit it takes time and your horse pony will gladley comply and over time when he or she is standing still you can ask for the left then the right or vise versa to foward your horse ponys training. i hope this helps.


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

Endiku said:


> Ah, ok. So atleast I know that I'm not the only one who uses that technique!
> 
> Sour definitely doesn't 'gee' or 'haw' just on verbal command yet, as she tends to mix the two up or starts weaving she forgets both of them (silly girl...) but she goes off of verbal commands for everything else. I would like her to be very reliable and light with the reins as well though, which is why I'm a bit worried. Once she starts working this October, she'll be expected to move out and keep her pace/maneuver people and obstacles with me and a passenger or two in the cart, and she has to be able to work off of just my reins at times when I'm talking to the customer as we're going along.
> 
> Also, should I be using her name when I give her commands? I haven't been doing that, but she seems to know her name atleast a little, as she comes when I call her in the pasture and will turn towards me if she's tied and I call her. I could be wrong though.


 yes i use tricks name id say walk on tricky or tricky walk on and he responds.


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## goodhors (Jan 25, 2011)

We have been taught to NEVER use the reins as a cue to start, NO SLAPPING them on the rump, as seen on TV!

Horse is more likely to "take offense" to butt slapping and kick. This also why you never use a short whip that can only reach the rump. Whip and lash end, should reach the horse/pony shoulder, so you use it on their sides. Whip is used in a touching manner, no slashing or whacking allowed. Whip is "your driving legs" because you can't touch him physically like a rider does.

For us, you ALWAYS have a whip in your hand, to signal the horse as needed. Same as giving a leg cue, to help a turn. If you have to reach and pull whip out of the whip socket, you will have "missed your opportunity", for timely signals or effective reinforcement to a command.

With the whip in hand, you do not give a command several times. You give the command, touch the horse, and get the desired result. Repeating commands with no follow-up, just teaches horse to EXPECT several commands before going. Sometimes it is REALLY important that he does as asked NOW!

Light on the reins is trained, not a "natural" thing. A RESPONSIVE mouth comes with work, driver giving a release when horse does as asked. Horse who throws their head if you take up reins, try to get them a bit collected for more impulsion, is NOT LIGHT, they have an untrained mouth. It is VERY EASY to be heavy handed driving, because of the leverage provided with rein length, less feel in that distance.

Not sure what kind of horse Sour is, but she should respond calmly, to both voice and soft whip touch without being afraid, for starting. Might be a draft horse thing, wiggling reins, but not what I am experienced with for starting off. We also would NEVER DREAM of hitting the horse with the end of the line!! Whip is much more effective, touches where you aim it and again, not hitting horse in the rump to incite a kick response


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

michaelvanessa said:


> yes i use tricks name id say walk on tricky or tricky walk on and he responds.


 also you will know your own horse and how he responds you should work on a repour with your horse and just use comands like i said you cant go wroung and if you keep changing your comands the horse wil be confused
so i think use one set of comands only to get your horse going.


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

*verble driveing comands.*

if you ask for walk on and you dont get a responce it also helps to click click walk on tricky some times tap him with the rein once not hard but gentle as that gets his attention but 98% of the time he listens to the verble commands.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

MichaelVanessa- I'm having a _really_ hard time understanding you due to your lack of punctuation, so pardon me if I misintepret something you said. I try to keep things simple for Sour, and do not have an 'extended trot' 'working trot' 'woah and stop' command as you are saying, but rather six simple things that I ask and I combine them to get the reaction that I want. I use woah, ease up(transitioning down), walk on (go), trot (I ONLY allow a working trot in the carriage, nothing faster and nothing slower), 'gee' and 'haw.' and clucking to her if I'd like her to pick up the pace without changing gaits. She responds very well to voice commands, and is just green as far as I'm concerned. She has only been driven six times for 10-25 minutes, after all. I really don't know what your exercise with the feed and her lifting her legs is for, so I'll leave that alone. She picks up her feet, disengages her hindquarters, pivots, and will move her feet for me quietly and quickly.

Goodhors- thankyou. You've been very helpful. I'd just like to clear things up just a tad bit though, as I don't want you to think that I am hurting my horse ^^ when I said 'use my reins' to cue her forewards, I was taught to wiggle and give the voice command, which is what I do. I do not hit her across the rump with my rein 

And yes, I do realize that being light on the reins is a trained thing, and I have put a LOT of effort into her ground driving training for that reason. Before I ever hooked her up I established a good mouth on her, and she will respond to the tiniest bit of pressure on the rein. I was noticing that she was getting just a little harder to turn though (not to the point of me really having to pull at all, just noticable enough for me to wonder) and so that is why I came here  We're still working on collecting up (She's only been driving for a little over a month now) but she's slowly getting ther.

Thank you guys for your information. I borrowed a friend's driving whip today to use, and used it instead of my reins. Things went very well and I plan on going to buy my own this week. Glad I got that cleared up!

Also, Sour is a miniature horse. Sorry I didn't mention that.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Also, some of the sluggishness to your hands may simply be due to her still being so green. 

I can only speak for ridden horses, but they usually do go through a stage where they are sluggish in their responsiveness and/or a stage where they are very hyper-reactive to cues. You just have to stay consistent and keep working them through it.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

ahaha, funny you should mention that. This morning I hooked her up and I swear, I didn't even have to touch the reins to have her dancing around, exaggerating her turns and speeding up/slowing down extremely quickly. She settled down after a few minutes but it was rather funny! Good to know she isn't 'broken' or something though, and yes- I do need to remember just how green she still is! xD


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## michaelvanessa (Apr 25, 2012)

Endiku said:


> So I'm just a tad bit confused, and I'm not sure if there is a 'right' or 'wrong' answer to this, so I don't mind conflicting answers.
> 
> As you all know, Sour started driving about a month ago, and we have since driven out 5 times. She's doing wonderful and we began trotting for the first time a week ago. No problems at all, and my trainer is very pleased with how she's doing. She's finally figuring out that she can stretch into the harness which is making things much nicer for her, and she's very light in the mouth most of the time.
> 
> ...


 hiya sounds like your haveing fun try clicking or double clicking with a command that works well.


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## Endiku (Dec 6, 2010)

^ I do this, but I use it as my 'second warning' rather than doing it immediately. I usually give her three chances. A voice command, a voice command with rein, a wiggle, and if she doesn't respond still, a well placed tap. Usually she's moving the way I want her to by the time I get to using the rein though- except with for backing up  we're still a little sticky with that one!


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## GreySorrel (Mar 5, 2012)

Like goodhors, I too have been told NEVER slap or wiggle your lines on the horse. It can cause bad habits...I have a team of drafts and I carry a whip in the holder all the time. I am very fortunate as Trixie and Smoke work a lot off of verbal commands now, but that is years of driving and practice. 

When I do have to use the whip it is to tap them on the rump and a "get up" to whichever mare is lagging or needs to move. I also say their names then the command, watching that one or both ears are back listening before I tell them something. There isn't anything wrong with carrying a whip, it is an extension of your arm. You also always want to have one as if one day, your in a situation that your mare decides that going forward is not an option and begins to back, slapping, wiggling or telling her to get up isn't going to work, you want the whip to reinforce the command. 

If you get a driving whip, if you can, go in and hold it. I had to go and try several different makes and lengths to find one that was long enough, balanced and I could hold it in my hands along with the driving lines AND drive all at once. Do I like carrying a whip? Heck no! But if it is required or necessary, I want to know it is there.


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