# how do I overcome what happened to her?



## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

I think planning on taking things at a snail's pace perfect. If she can move faster, then great. If not, no problem. Listen to her, let her tell you what she can handle. Which it sounds like you are doing.

Some people will tell you she just needs to get over it, that they wouldn't be tiptoeing around a horse like this, etc. etc. But this is YOUR horse and YOU are the one working with her. Just keep on doing what you are doing. She will come along at her own pace and you will be happy with her and yourself.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

One of the most beneficial things I ever did with my fearful Morgan, Minnie, was just spend time around her. I would sit on the round bale in her pen, slowly pick manure, browse on my phone while sitting on a stool near her, etc. Minnie needed to realize that it was safe to be around quiet me, minding my own business, before she was ready to feel safe with me quietly interacting with her, and then more loudly interacting with her...

Another huge thing is to just be patient, and accept her for how she is now, not how she used to be or how you want her to be. She will make forward progress, but there will likely be many steps back. Learn to laugh at the silly things that may trigger her, and learn to react with love, not irritation. There will probably be silly things that she is scared of that you don't expect.


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## ACinATX (Sep 12, 2018)

Ah, yes, I meant to add that as well. She will have day where she regresses. This is where I sometimes have problems with the horse I'm working with, Teddy. I understand intellectually that working with horses is going to involve some progress and some steps back, but at the times when those steps back actually happen I have a hard time accepting it.


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## ClearDonkey (Nov 27, 2016)

ACinATX said:


> Ah, yes, I meant to add that as well. She will have day where she regresses. This is where I sometimes have problems with the horse I'm working with, Teddy. I understand intellectually that working with horses is going to involve some progress and some steps back, but at the times when those steps back actually happen I have a hard time accepting it.


My best advice: "Breath in, smile, breath out" when she take a step back. Know that you are her person, and you are working with her to get through this. Know that she has chosen to begin trusting you, despite what happened to her in the past. Know that she is in the best place she could possibly be in, when she takes steps back. Know that you are her safe place, and no matter the steps back she takes, you are still her safe place.

It's so hard, but you can do this, and you are doing this, for her.


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## carshon (Apr 7, 2015)

If she is a sensitive horse - or some people will say light it could be that dressage or how they handled her trying to get her to do western dressage blew hew mind a little. And it takes some time for horses to settle in. I purchased a mare 3 years ago (3 years in Aug) and to be honest in the last 9 months is when she finally just really settled in. Really added some weight, started to seek me out for attention and really seemed relaxed when we trailered her out for trail rides. I started riding her right after I got her but she was always tense and I could tell that at some time in her life (not the people I got her from) she had been disciplined more harshly than I do. She was hard to catch, and rushy when I rode her and did not stand still to mount. But she never did a thing wrong under saddle - I just kept with it. Slow and steady -easy and slow in movements and very rarely disciplined her. Tillie's personality has blossomed this past year and I lover her even more. But my mare is sensitive she is wary of strangers and can be flighty if cornered.

Just keep doing what you are doing. You can't erase what happened to her but you can create new and more positive memories for her.

By the way she is gorgeous!


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

Honestly you need to teach her how to get rid of her own anxiety. No matter how slow you go, if you don't teach her that she will eventually build up anxiety and fear until she has a bolt or a buck or a spook etc. Teach her to get rid of her anxiety by focusing on you. You need to be her dopamine dealer so that whenever something happens the rider can gently get her focus and she will dump out all her anxiety and continue on in a relaxed state. You need to get her on the ground to where she will look to you to relax and then you can move to under saddle etc. Once you get her there on the ground you will find a lot of the other issues will probably just go away on their own because they are simply a symptom not the root.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

I bought a mare three years ago who was supposed to be bombproof, but was terrified 24/7. She would barely ever unclench her jaw for the first few weeks with us. We could not put anything, especially not our hands, on her head. She was sold to us by a dealer who just left her halter on 24/7 rather than try to catch her and halter her. Once she has a halter and lead on, she is very submissive and will follow you around. But you can't tie her solid. She pulls back until she flips over backwards or rips off whatever she is tied to. A chiropractor told me she has messed up her neck badly from going over backwards (this is just from assessing the damage). 

She spooks badly. I came off her twice in the first two weeks I got her and knew something was wrong. She eventually gave me a concussion. 

I started over completely with her. We did a 3 month online liberty training course that was amazing. Like your mare, she also likes being around us, but is scared to do something wrong and get reprimanded. She used to run in terror at things that wouldn't bother a normal horse. A bucket, a shovel... we had to be aware of this at all times. In my liberty training course, we had to use a driving whip for cues (without ever physically touching the horse, just as a pointer), and she was terrified of that. I had to walk around with it for a few weeks while doing chores just so she would get used to it and not run for her life. 

I don't know what happened to my mare, but it sure sounds similar to what happened to yours. Go slow.... very very slow. She will come around. 

After the liberty training which we both loved, we formed a solid bond, and moved on to ground work. She is so much better than she used to be. I can do all sorts of things around her I wouldn't have dreamed of doing before, and she doesn't react anymore. She's much, much calmer. Loves scratches. I can walk up to her and halter her anytime, anywhere. 

Lately, I've started treating her with photonic therapy and she is beginning to really improve under saddle. No spooks in a long time. 

Give your horse time. Hang out with her. Let her get used to you being around without always having to work. Sit and read a book in the pasture. No expectations of any contact, just sit there and be part of the herd. Horses don't have to touch each other to be part of the herd. Let her approach you. When you approach her, do it respectfully and slowly. Give her time to process. Let her invite you in by turning your head towards you and acknowledging you. Acknowledge her pain from a difficult past. Good luck!


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I think she is going to be an awesome horse once she learns to trust again. I'm sure the horse in the video is still there, but somebody tried to dominate her and punish her for being scared. I don't know exactly why, but some people respond to a fearful horse with dominance, like they think the horse is doing it on purpose just to peeve them off. That is my guess as to what is going on. The horse came out from Wyoming, something happened to scare the horse, which scared the owner, and they or a "trainer" tried to dominate the horse into behaving, which only made the horse more fearful and lost her trust in people.

I have no doubt someone paid $10,000 for the horse in the video, as that seems to be what people with plenty of money pay for good gaited horses around here. Which makes me sad, because I don't have that kind of disposable income! So I was lucky enough to find some gaited horses on the lower end of the horse market......but that's not the point. The point is, I personally know people who have bought at sold gaited horses in that price point here in AZ. Sigh! 

Anyway, I think you are very lucky! I think if you gain her trust (doing what you are doing, taking it slow, not punishing her for every little misstep, etc) and just becoming her friend, you guys are going to have that great horse back. Lucky you! Maybe you were meant to find each other. :smile:

PS. Another common thing around here is horses that are afraid of men. People say that a lot. I've had two horses that supposedly don't like men. But I think what it means is that they are sensitive horses and get fearful if someone (man or not) tries to dominate them.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi, while it's interesting to know their history, it really doesn't matter much & imo tends to get in the way of people treating a horse as a horse, simply addressing what's in front of them, if they find out or assume or suspect 'Abuse'. So I'd forget speculating about what was 'done to her' - which may have been absolutely nothing... could have been someone frightened her & she bolted or they came off once, but it just snowballed from there, who knows.



therhondamarie said:


> desensitizing with the lead rope letting it swing and wrap around her legs. Now she stood there stock still, but eyed me warily the whole time and was not relaxed. But she never moved a muscle. It was like she was frozen in fear of what I might do to her if she did the wrong thing.


Yes sounds like she was indeed 'frozen in fear'. Doing this 'flooding'(behavioural term) kind of 'desensitising' where you keep doing something regardless of the horses response/attitude can be the cause of that. She is obviously worried about what you're doing. Maybe has learned previously she has to stand there & put up with it & it will eventually go away, but she hasn't learned it's nothing to worry about. The aim of 'flooding' done properly is to do something, regardless of the horses response, keep it up until the horse is apparently blase about it. But people often don't realise that 'quiet' or not moving do not mean the horse is necessarily relaxed about it. Good you at least realised this. 

So, she will be a 'hair trigger' when feeling like that. That's the kind of thing that causes horses to be labeled as 'suddenly, out of the blue, for no apparent reason' exploders - because people haven't recognised or been considerate of the horses fear, so they have kept going, continuing more & more until the 'straw that breaks the camel'. Then wondered at her reacting to straws...

Even done properly, until the horse is relaxed, I don't like this method, for the unnecessary, unhelpful stress it puts on the horse beforehand and that 'relaxation' can be more a 'shell shocked' or a resigned, 'broken' sort of attitude/behaviour rather than actual confidence & trust in what you're doing.

So... Rather than doing stuff in the name of 'desensitising' to the degree that she is actually quite scared... so that emotion is associated with what you're doing, confirming it's something to worry about, I like to use 'approach & retreat' tactics, to prove to the horse it's fine. 

You introduce the stimulus to the degree that she may be nervous about it but not seriously frightened, not reactive. This might be about how close, how fast, how long you do something for, for eg. Then you stop, remove the 'pressure'. The horse relaxes. You repeat... You keep up this level of 'approaching & retreating' until the horse is *actually* blase about you doing it, before increasing the intensity a bit more & approaching & retreating until she is relaxed about that level. In that way, you can ' stretch' her comfort zone, prove to her she can trust you & your 'toys' without associating serious fear & risking her blowing up.



> Long enough to do both sides of her and for her to see that I was not going to mistreat her at all.


If she was 'frozen' in fear, it was too much. It should have been *short enough* to enable her to realise it wasn't bad, didn't amount to anything. That is likely to mean a few seconds, not lots, or minutes of continual 'assault'.


> decided to see if shaking the lead as suggested got a reaction from her. And boy oh boy did it. She backed up incredibly fast, but it seemed to be out of fear.


Yes, horses *react* out of fear. If you want her to learn to *respond* with understanding, yielding calmly & respectfully, best to introduce it in such a way that you don't provoke fear/reactions.


> as though she wants to be with us and she wants to trust us, but something has obviously happened to this horse.


Yeah 'somethings' often happen to cause horses to be wary or reactive in certain situations. Remember, they learn from instant associations and can't reason, so associations/memories are more primal, emotional. So it could well be the 'something' about flapping ropes around her legs was the same as what you were doing. 

What is important is what you do, how you handle her at the time, now, not what might or might not have happened in her past.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

The part in her story where she travelled some distance to go to a new home, and had problems at the home that she had not had before... makes me wonder if she got ulcers from the travel and the readjustment period, and she was never treated and never had a chance to get better.

They can happen quickly in periods of stress, and cause major personality changes, spookiness, etc., that seem to come "out of the blue." And certain types of handling might have exacerbated the behavioural issues -- leading to someone trying to "fix" her with aggressive training at some point.

As an aside, the backing up from shaking the lead rope thing is a Parelli thing. Someone might have tried to get their Parelli on, and gone about it with a very bad attitude.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

My pony Pippa is a horse like this: a very sensitive horse who was at some point in her life treated horribly -- definitely by a man -- in the name of "training". What works for Pippa is first, to have a person. One person. Second, for that person to be able to STOP whenever something is alarming her. Just stop. Do not say, 'oh, it's just a (thing), it's nothing, get over it'. That works for most horses, who have a history of trusting people who deserve their trust. 

For Pippa I sometimes literally back up. "Let's go all the way back to before you were scared, and start there, only we're going to go a whole lot slower." Sometimes the "slower" looks like singing lullabies and wither scritching until her head comes down and she isn't braced for disaster. Then I do something very small, toward the goal. If she gets eye-rolly I STOP. I don't leave, I stay there with her until she can handle that tiny increment. Sometimes I judge that this is all she can do, sometimes I can go on. But I let her tell me. 

Another thing I do with Pippa is just randomly go out and hang with her. Give her scritches and fuss with her, lean on her a little, smell her nice fur, feed her a few treats, say goodbye, and move off slowly. 

Meet your horse where she is, take time with her, invest in her, and she may come back.


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## Acadianartist (Apr 21, 2015)

EXACTLY what @Avna just said. Do that.


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

Thank you all so much! I appreciate all of the thoughts and ideas. I thought the same thing about the Parelli thing. She seems to have been overdone on those methods. Today I turned her out in the round pen, and I just sat in the pen with her on the rail. She would wander over to me to get scratched then go roll then trot around then wander back. She really is beautiful, and we feel so fortunate to have gotten her for the extra low price of $650! We are in zero rush, so I'll keep y'all updated on her progress. She does not seem to have a man/woman preference. In fact, I would say she is actually calmer around the BO and my boyfriend. She seems to trust them more than me. And she is very wary around our kiddo who is 8. Of course, she is not handling her, but even if she comes up through the barn Pep will get far away from her and look scared/anxious. I think the fast movements that kids make are alarming to her. We will definitely just go slow and steady while keeping in mind that steps backwards are still part of the dance. 

Perhaps if a moderator could move this to member journals, it can be hers.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

My Paso was badly abused before I got him. After 2 years, he likes me and trusts me- only to an extent. For example, he will gallop up to see me when I whistle on some days. Other days, he looks scared and will retreat before turning to face me. He sometimes flinches when touched or brushed. Not as bad as he used to but he just doesn't seem to enjoy being touched- other than for scratches under his mane. He likes treats but he always sniffs before taking them- like he is suspicious. 

I think horses always remember what has happened to them in the past. It sticks with them. But some tend to overcome it better than others. Especially if the abuse was only associated with one person and all other interactions have been positive, it is easier to overcome. My old mare was hobbled and flipped to the ground before I got her but that was many many years ago- she has the scars to prove it. But she has absolute complete trust in me. 

It is like asking why two people can go through the same traumatic event- and one gets ptsd and the other person doesn't. 

She could have been ear twitched which might explain the head shy behavior. I would try clicker training. She doesn't sound severely abused so i would think this is something she can overcome with time and patient handling.


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

4horses said:


> My Paso was badly abused before I got him. After 2 years, he likes me and trusts me- only to an extent. For example, he will gallop up to see me when I whistle on some days. Other days, he looks scared and will retreat before turning to face me. He sometimes flinches when touched or brushed. Not as bad as he used to but he just doesn't seem to enjoy being touched- other than for scratches under his mane. He likes treats but he always sniffs before taking them- like he is suspicious.
> 
> I think horses always remember what has happened to them in the past. It sticks with them. But some tend to overcome it better than others. Especially if the abuse was only associated with one person and all other interactions have been positive, it is easier to overcome. My old mare was hobbled and flipped to the ground before I got her but that was many many years ago- she has the scars to prove it. But she has absolute complete trust in me.
> 
> ...


She did have what looked like rub marks all over her head where the hair was rubbed off and it was scabbed over slightly in the exact area that a fly mask would be, so I am wondering if she also had one left on her too long or too tight.


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## blue eyed pony (Jun 20, 2011)

It always feels like an insurmountable climb when you're at the base of the mountain looking up. It's so very easy to give up before you've even really gotten started because of that, but it's amazing what you can do with simple patient persistence. If she can't handle something today, ask her to give as much as she's comfortable with (_comfortable_ being the key word here) and try again tomorrow. Once she's comfortable with basic handling you can teach her constructive ways to handle her anxiety.


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## SteadyOn (Mar 5, 2017)

I recommend him often on here... For a shut down and anxious horse like yours, I'd really really recommend looking into Warwick Schiller. His "focus for relaxation" work would be especially helpful.

A lot of training methods go wrong when they think that compliance automatically means success. And it sounds like your horse has been bullied by someone into compliance -- but not taught to actually be comfortable with a lot of situations. Or even just in her own skin. He advocates COMPLETE relaxation to help bring a horse around. Absolutely NO rushing.

There are lots of free videos on YouTube and you can try a free one-week subscription. Even if you only signed up for one month of videos, you could binge-watch them and take away a lot. (I personally do a month here or there, rather than running a subscription all the time.)


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## AndyTheCornbread (Feb 3, 2019)

^ What @SteadyOn said is what I was talking about. I keep a year round subscription to his site because I am nearly always working a horse but you can do a month at a time if you want to work on just one thing to get it ironed out like what @SteadyOn does.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

Avna said:


> My pony Pippa is a horse like this: a very sensitive horse who was at some point in her life treated horribly -- definitely by a man -- in the name of "training". What works for Pippa is first, to have a person. One person. Second, for that person to be able to STOP whenever something is alarming her. Just stop. Do not say, 'oh, it's just a (thing), it's nothing, get over it'. That works for most horses, who have a history of trusting people who deserve their trust.
> 
> For Pippa I sometimes literally back up. "Let's go all the way back to before you were scared, and start there, only we're going to go a whole lot slower." Sometimes the "slower" looks like singing lullabies and wither scritching until her head comes down and she isn't braced for disaster. Then I do something very small, toward the goal. If she gets eye-rolly I STOP. I don't leave, I stay there with her until she can handle that tiny increment. Sometimes I judge that this is all she can do, sometimes I can go on. But I let her tell me.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what works for Salty, too. I totally disregard any advice or pressure from others about handling and riding him. 

I watch his eye and can read his expressions. If his head is high and his eye is big, fearful or hard, we stop until his head is down and his eye is soft. I constantly monitor whether he is connected to me emotionally and take time to reconnect. I recommend Mark Langley to learn more about calm connection. When Salty gets worried, I try to get still and calm and reassure him that connecting to me is always the right answer.

These horses often have been blown up by over pressured bad natural horsemanship training, or by harsh traditional traing methods and do not respond well to driving in circles, moving their feet or other physical or mental pressures.


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

Thank you all again. I think exactly what happened to Pep is that she got blown up by those overdone natural horsemanship methods. She is exceptionally compliant, but she is rarely relaxed when doing things. It's going to take time, but as I said we are in no rush at all. It is more important to us that she be confident and comfortable with requests rather than just compliant via fear. I will check out Mark Langley, and of course a month subscription to binge watch is a great idea! I'll keep everyone updated on her progress!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

@Feathers7 posted a WS vid in the thread https://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/stop-rearing-before-starts-808837/#post1970784115 that I think explains balance of 'desensitising' vs 'sensitising' well. 

This is a sort of 'approach & retreat' kind of mindset I think - don't be afraid to do 'stuff' that stresses the horse out, but don't over do it, cause the horse too much stress, for long at a time, but make sure to keep it balanced with exercises that help them gain confidence.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

The rope wiggling event told me a lot!

Time and patience. Being calm without creeping around. Maintaining a no-big-deal attitude about things.
It sounds like there is a really super horse in there!!!!!

Keep us posted.


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## Zack (Sep 23, 2019)

Love her. Give her hugs and play with her. I have a Percheron, he... was skiddish, but over time he's breaking away from that. You need to show confidence that your are the leader, but at the same time, your the one showing kindness. Some people have the hard approach... doens't work for me, but then again, I'm not trying to use the horse, rather he is now my pet. Big pet, but never-the-less. Were currently working on holding the lead rope in his mouth and dropping it. Next will be to pick it back up. Sounds odd, but its part of interaction, and to get him to understand what comes with performing that task, which are walks. Another thing, if your girl responds well, remember to reward each time. It can be food, a rub, a scratch, whatever your horse likes. Remember, horses are a huge ball of emotions, but there smart as well.


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

We did the 'approach & retreat' stuff yesterday, and she was phenomenal. We even turned her out in a larger area with my mare, and I was able to walk right up to her to put her back up after we cleaned stalls which is HUGE as sometimes we have to approach and retreat for a bit to catch her in the stall. Yesterday my boyfriend (she is his horse actually) was hanging out with her in the stall and she was half asleep, head down, while he was brushing her. So she is gaining trust, particularly with him! She is still nervous of our kiddo. I suspect the fast movements of an 8 year old are just too much! (I kinda agree with her sometimes !) Anyway, I think Pep is going to be great. 

And I love that video that explains the balance of desensitizing and sensitizing.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

I think the best thing you can do is let her get to know you and you her FIRST. Let her learn you can be trusted and you can be relied on. You'll have a lot of two steps forward, one step back days, and you'll want to be two years down the road every time you work with her, and you're going to get discouraged and you're going to want to quit. It's going to seem like it gets harder before it gets better. 

Unraveling the hot mess someone else has made out of a horse isn't easy, it's a LOT of work, and it is a labor of love. I've done it with only one horse, and any other hot messes I found myself with got sold to people who wanted a hot mess to unravel. Why? Because one hot mess is more than enough and I ain't gettin any younger and the ground isn't getting softer.

Take your time. Find her currency and exploit it. (Do snacks get her attention? Then yeah, DO FEEL FREE TO BEGIN GETTING HER ATTENTION AND TRUST BY BRIBING. IDC what ANYONE says, BRIBE if you got to, then slowly turn the bribe into a reward.) Be present and get to learn her language, both verbal and physical (body language), learn to tailor your emotions, your voice, your posture in a way she's not threatened and can slowly begin to trust you, then remember what worked and what scared her.

I've spent the last 3 years 'saving' someone else's hot mess, and it's been worth it. He's my most trusted trail horse, my camping buddy, and we rely on one another. He's timid and shy by nature, he's incredibly sensitive to his person/rider's emotions, tone of voice, posture in the seat, and he will react immediately, if not a half second before you realize he's been cued to do A Thing. Has it been worth it? Every single moment, every pound of snacks I've bought, every learning experience we've had. 

Would I do it again? For him... yes. Without question. Would I do it again for another? Not while I have him - because he needs my full attention most of the time. Yes, I have time to work with our fillies and ride other horses, but for Trigger, when I'm 'with him' I have to be fully with him. I don't have time for a second high-maintenance (Emotionally) horse.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I'd also recommend Warwick Schiller's "Focus for Relaxation" work. It made all the difference with my shut down, terrified gelding. 



You may also want to get bloodwork drawn and a full workup on this mare. Sometimes ulcers, nutritional deficiences or toxicities, and pain can manifest as a frightened, anxious horse. Check her mouth and teeth, vision, see if she may need vitamin E and selenium in her diet, or if there's too much iron. Have a good chiropractor go over her. Some horses that are spooky and fearful are just in pain or are waiting for the next thing that hurts. I had a mare once who was jumpy and spooky, and her previous owner did not have that problem. I thought it was me. Turns out she had something out of place in her neck, and when she turned her head just so, the pain must have been explosive. Once she was adjusted and realized that things didn't hurt anymore, her anxiety decreased markedly.


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## McKTX (Jan 4, 2016)

It does sound like someone went all Clinton Anderson with her and wasn't enough of a horseman to understand she does not need that dominance "training". 

One of my favorite Tom Dorrance quotes...

"Admire the horse for the good things he does and just kinda ignore the wrong things. First thing you know, the good things will get better and the bad things will get less."

Sounds like she really wants to please but has been corrected harshly for wrong answers.


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## keelan (Jan 5, 2010)

Try T-Touch, Linda Tellington Jones method. Touching is important for horses. Also Massage to help her release tension. Could you get her to stand for a chiropractor? Just to be sure she is not out anywhere.
Carry treats and reward positive behavior and just give her time.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

The Masterson Method of bodywork is another thing that can really help an anxious horse learn to calm themselves, and learn to trust you. There are lots of videos on YouTube, too.


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

I am in the process of scheduling the vet for all three of our mares, so they'll all be getting the full work up. I just need my work schedule to free up a bit for it. 

She does stand to be touched. We can rub her all over either in the round pen or in the stall. Those times she will relax and drop her head, eyes half closed, lower lip not tense at all. She gets the most tense when leading or putting the halter on and off. She will work in the round pen beautifully as well. It's just the initial haltering that is the most stressful for her currently. Of course we have not introduced much of anything else either! But she will stand tied to be groomed and relaxes then.


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## WildHorses85 (Oct 1, 2019)

SilverMaple said:


> The Masterson Method of bodywork is another thing that can really help an anxious horse learn to calm themselves, and learn to trust you. There are lots of videos on YouTube, too.


I just ordered the book on The Masterson Method! It's supposed to be here today. I'm hoping to learn some of the techniques and use them on my new gelding and my daughter's new mare. I figure it will help relieve tension and pain, as well as give us bonding time for them to realize we are there to help and aren't like their past owners. :runninghorse2:


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

What kind of halter are you using? I've found a lot of horses who have been 'Natural Horsemanshipped' have had a rope halter with the extra knots on the noseband used frequently. Those sit right over the facial nerves, and seem to really, really be uncomfortable for a lot of horses. Jerk the lead rope with those knots, and it must feel like hitting your funny bone on a table... they're really meant to get a disrespectful, dangerous horse's attention before you switch back to a regular rope halter, but some people use them at all times.

My gelding relaxed immensely when he realized my halters, while rope, do not have those extra knots. I'd approach and release, waiting for him to relax and chew, then take a step or two closer, etc. If he pulled away, I stepped back a step and let him process that, then approached again. I gave him the option to tell me haltering was stressful for him, and that allowed him to work through it. The first day, all the farther I got with him was carrying the halter with me as I came up to rub on him. The next day I got the leadrope over his neck. The third day, he relaxed enough to not tense when I lifted the halter up and put it on. When I got it on and led him around, he blinked and twitched his muzzle and licked and chewed and bobbed his lead like he was waiting for something to happen and after he worked through that, he visibly relaxed, yawned and stretched, then cocked one rear leg and let me rub on him. He was waiting for that halter to be uncomfortable and it wasn't. That was HUGE for him. 

You don't want this -- those two extra knots over the noseband are uncomfortable for the horse, and you never really get a 'release' when those are sitting on the face:


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

SilverMaple said:


> What kind of halter are you using? I've found a lot of horses who have been 'Natural Horsemanshipped' have had a rope halter with the extra knots on the noseband used frequently. Those sit right over the facial nerves, and seem to really, really be uncomfortable for a lot of horses. Jerk the lead rope with those knots, and it must feel like hitting your funny bone on a table... they're really meant to get a disrespectful, dangerous horse's attention before you switch back to a regular rope halter, but some people use them at all times.
> 
> My gelding relaxed immensely when he realized my halters, while rope, do not have those extra knots. I'd approach and release, waiting for him to relax and chew, then take a step or two closer, etc. If he pulled away, I stepped back a step and let him process that, then approached again. I gave him the option to tell me haltering was stressful for him, and that allowed him to work through it. The first day, all the farther I got with him was carrying the halter with me as I came up to rub on him. The next day I got the leadrope over his neck. The third day, he relaxed enough to not tense when I lifted the halter up and put it on. When I got it on and led him around, he blinked and twitched his muzzle and licked and chewed and bobbed his lead like he was waiting for something to happen and after he worked through that, he visibly relaxed, yawned and stretched, then cocked one rear leg and let me rub on him. He was waiting for that halter to be uncomfortable and it wasn't. That was HUGE for him.
> 
> You don't want this -- those two extra knots over the noseband are uncomfortable for the horse, and you never really get a 'release' when those are sitting on the face:


It is a rope halter, but it does not have the extra knots.We have been considering getting her just a flat halter just to ease her mind as well. We are essentially willing to do whatever it takes to ease her mind and earn her trust. 

Yesterday when I went out she was the most anxious I have seen her. It was incredibly windy, and normally after a few steps away she will let me get the lead around her neck and then the halter on. The halter was half on yesterday and she yanked away. I let her release, and then approached her again just to pet her. But she was getting far too visibly upset and after she yanked away with it half on she spun so hard she hit the metal rails, so I figured better to just hang out with her today rather than force anything on her. I spent some time just in her stall with her, letting her see me clean it and clean out her water and feed her some carrots.


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

We went out to work with Pep and the other horses yesterday. Pep would not let us get her halter on her at all. We ended up leading her to the round pen with her lead rope around her neck. Boyfriend worked with her for what felt like hours (really was not that long) trying to get her to let him put it on. She would let him get the noseband onto her, but then when it came time to put it any higher she would pull her head up high and get anxious. If she has nothing on her head we can touch her ears, top of her head, etc. But if we have anything in our hands when it gets around the top of her head she gets flinchy. 

The vet is coming within the month to get her a complete check up. But any ideas? We did buy a flat nylon halter in case the rope halter is a trigger for her. I know some may say we are spoiling her by making these adjustments, but it's not a big deal to us what kind of halter she prefers if it makes it easier to put one on her for all involved.


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## Zack (Sep 23, 2019)

therhondamarie said:


> We went out to work with Pep and the other horses yesterday. Pep would not let us get her halter on her at all.


We just had our first ground/manners training with a lady (Emily Elias).. What an amazing day we had with our boy Zach. Aside from another horse in his pasture (a small Welsh, whos a PINTA), what Emily walked us through was slow and simple form. What became important was to get Zach to understand that both the lead rope/halter were not something to be scared about. For the lead rope, it was about rubbing it on him as we were giving him a few snacks, and before long, the rope was over him, just left hanging, then rubbing a little around the face. Its all part of the sensitizing.

For the Halter, it was similar, but with using treats in the hand where he had to lean down to get them through the nose of the halter. There in lies one of the keys as well.... was to make him move towards what we wanted. So instead of trying to push something on/over him, it was him moving his head down into the halter for Us, assisting in the process of getting the halter on. On the first try he's wasn't keen and so we let the halter slide off, then re-approached within a minute with the same technique (I had to keep reminding myself to lean forward as Zach is 19.1HH). This time he kept his head down (albeit treats were in the hand), but his focus was that he had to lean and nose through the halter to get the treat, thus, it was not so invasive and he was helping us get the halter on.

With a few other things being taught, it was all about rewarding the simplest of good attempts, then re-approach again, gaining a little more success as we go. Getting Zach to back up... was using a thumb pressure near his chest muscle is how it started, then it dropped to barely needing to touch him. Although being big, and only taking barely one step back at times, he still got praise. One time it was just a muscle movement (as we were on a slight hill), but, it was still an attempt and got praise for it.

Important to note... if your are successful at getting your horse to do something, stop. Then revisit the next day. Sometimes to much repetitiveness can turn into a negative. It was also suggested that you carry the halter with you just to come greet your horse for the day, then walk away, so they don't see it as (I'm coming to get you < these being my words)

In the beginning we used a technique of hide/seek when trying to get Zach to come to us. We had a bucket of grain, and when we approached, he would move way, so then began the process of you follow me with turning my back away from him, then glancing back, then, moving further away. Well, that was what Zach was doing to us in the beginning, but... when performing the reversal, it became the game of him coming to us... to get the food, not us trying to run around catching him. In short time, it was him who was following us, and once standing next to us eating treats, gave praise, and moved onto the next teaching. For me, this was a huge thing as it got Zach to understand to come rather than run-away (again, the Welsh horse started the bad habits)

Another thing I just remembered... For me, I had learned in the past to pull your horse to get them to turn around. This in fact is a negative as your trying to pull the horse rather than the horse performing for you. What we learned was not only easier, but the turn was more effective... That being get your horses rear to move by a simple push on the hind-end and let the lead rope guide them through the turn, even if its just a slight hanging onto the rope. In short time we didn't even need to touch Zach's rear (as horses have better peripheral vision), rather just reach out and he began turning around for us. It was pointed out that horses (in the herds) communicate with each other by pushing and nudging, and so, its that technique is what's more effective and produces positive movements rather than trying to pull (a negative)

Now.... One last thing... the bridge of the nose is tender and is the area in which we use to hopefully get our horses to respond. Well, if there is already pressure being applied, then more force is needed. On that note... flat halters already present that pressure, so it was suggested to move over to a rope halter where there is minimal to none (depending upon brand), and then when pressure is applied its a clearer indication to follow the command with less pull as the rope is more prominent when pressure is applied.

There may be some out there that prefer the strong/physical approach, but its very clear through many threads on this forum that our horses have unique was of communication. There pains have often turned into the very same thing we experience... pinched nerves, back's out of alignment, etc. Needless to say... they have feelings. And nothings speaks louder than success, and for our training day, it was just that... using simple, easy approach. Work less as the teaching improves and at each, praise, wither its verbal, or physical... and that being scratches or, soft pats


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## therhondamarie (Sep 18, 2019)

@Zack thanks so much! I do what you mentioned regarding carrying things with me and just petting her or going about my chores. I would love to do the treats, but she does not seem to be super receptive too treats! It's crazy because our other two will do literally any weird trick for treats! Once she gets the halter on she's amazingly receptive. And we can catch her with little issue. And lead her with the rope around her neck. Today I just petted her all over and rubbed her head while holding the halter and lead. She seemed pretty okay this morning.


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## Cedar & Salty (Jul 6, 2018)

Salty and I just had the pleasure of attending a two day clinic with West Taylor, who teaches using methods from the book Evidence Based Horsemanship by Dr. Steven Peters. I came away with a different horse, and more importantly, Salty came home with a human who actually helps him instead of stressing him out. 

Our motto has changed from "Love me, please love me" to "We need more mayhem.... bring us some mayhem!"

There is truth in the advice you have received, and West explains why going slow gets you there fast, how to teach your horse to self regulate, what you're doing to contribute to your horse's stress and fear, and the science (equine brain structure and neurochemistry) of why it all works.

Wild Card Salty is no more... I came home with Rock Solid Salty.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Sounds like you had fun & learned heaps Zack! I want to address a few things you said - more for clarification than disagreeing... Being... a bit passionate about behavioural training, can't help myself & I hope it helps you and OP to understand the principles at work behind the 'tactics'.



Zack said:


> For the Halter, it was similar, but with using treats in the hand where he had to lean down to get them through the nose of the halter.


Yep, behaviourally, when a treat or such is offered to the horse to encourage a behaviour that hasn't happened yet, that's called 'luring'(some call it 'bribing'). It is indeed a good method, IMO, of *establishing* some behaviours in the first place. But once you get that behaviour a few times, in order to 'strengthen' it, help the animal understand what you are asking, it's important to quit luring and change to rewarding/reinforcing - not offering the treat beforehand but rewarding when the behaviour happens. Otherwise you may end up with an animal who 'only works for treats'. IOW, luring should be used only for short term *getting* the behaviour in the first place.



> Important to note... if your are successful at getting your horse to do something, stop. Then revisit the next day. Sometimes to much repetitiveness can turn into a negative.


Yes, 'drilling' an animal on something, even if it isn't something unpleasant or worrying to begin with can cause stress & turn them off. They learn by association, so if they're feeling stressed doing something, they will come to associate that 'something' with stress. 

Animals 'live in the present', meaning they find it hard/impossible to associate 'abstracted' consequences that don't happen at the time of whatever behaviour you want to effect. That's why it's so important to reward/punish *instantly*. _AND_ be aware of what other behaviours are happening at the time that you might inadvertently reward/punish. Eg. horses get 'mouthy' or 'mug' for treats because they get rewarded for it - a person might ask for something, the horse does it, so they reward it... but as they are, the horse is reaching out 'rudely' trying to snatch the treat. So they end up reinforcing/strengthening that behaviour too! Animals learn to do whatever works for them. Beware everything you're reinforcing & don't ever reward behaviours you don't want!

Back to what you said above... short, 'easy' sessions are always best for teaching stuff, yes. But especially considering they 'live in the present', you don't have to quit everything & you don't have to wait till tomorrow to have another lesson. You don't even have to wait an hour. You can work on some 'trick' for a few minutes(or maybe substantially less even, depends on what you're doing, horse's attitude...) & then 'quit', go do something else, have a stress free break, even of a few minutes or less, then do another short 'session'. You can then have multiple short lessons over the day - or even the hour - without turning it into a Bad Thing.



> It was also suggested that you carry the halter with you just to come greet your horse for the day, then walk away, so they don't see it as (I'm coming to get you


Yeah, it's about that instant association, including associated emotions - getting 'seeing person with halter = bad feelings' to 'person with halter = Good Stuff'. 

In the same manner, as you mention luring your horse to come to you with a bucket of feed(again, I don't think this is a bad 'tactic' to use to instigate the behaviour in the first place, but it is 'luring' that tends not to be that effective if you always/only do that), he may come to associate you with a bucket = Good Stuff but not come to you without the bucket, or if you always try to catch or trap him when you have the bucket, he may even also learn to be... shifty about snatching food & escaping, because he wants to avoid What Comes Next. So... once you establish the 'coming to Mum is a Good Thing', I'd quit carrying a bucket or luring. Instead, you can have some cubes of carrot or some such in a pocket, out of sight, that you can reward him with *when* he comes.



> once standing next to us eating treats, gave praise, and moved on


Praise & other things which are innately meaningless/not desirable to an animal(including things like patting, for many(most?) horses) come to have meaning when associated strongly with an actual reinforcement/reward(or punishment). 

So 'praising' him while he is eating a treat will 'teach' him that praise=Good Stuff. Then you can start using praise when he does something Right, just before/as you give him a treat, and he will start to associate doing what you want with praise/reward. Then you can start effectively using praise(or whatever other sound/signal) as a 'bridge'(behavioural term) to 'mark' exact moments to tell the horse 'right'. _Then_ you can progress to a 'variable schedule of reinforcement', where you don't instantly or always have a treat at the ready - you can 'fade out' the actual reward, to be given only sporadically or for the best responses for eg. The meaningless sound has then become a sort of reward of itself, through association. 



> Another thing I just remembered... For me, I had learned in the past to pull your horse to get them to turn around. This in fact is a negative ... It was pointed out that horses (in the herds) communicate with each other by pushing and nudging,


I get the theory, but I don't agree with that one. Firstly, just because horses do something with eachother doesn't mean to say it's necessarily better for us to do it like that, or less/not 'negative', while it's worse/negative to do something that horses don't naturally do. It's the same logic that leads people to say 'horses hurt eachother more than a puny human can do, so it's OK to use strong physical punishment.'(*nb. not saying strong punishment is never warranted but just that's no justification). And the argument against rewarding horses because they only tend to use negative reinforcement/punishment on eachother, never reward eachother, especially not with food.

It's also _not_ innately understood or accepted to a horse that they should yield to pressure, be it 'pushing' or 'pulling'. They need to be _taught_, and they can just as easily be resistant, reactive, confused to being 'pushed' on. They learn to yield to pressure for the simple reason that it will become unpleasant for them if they don't(if they're not up for a 'dominance challenge' & they want to avoid unpleasantness, that is). 

Eg. Mum will 'ask' foal to move over with a gesture, and if he doesn't, she will 'tell' him with a shove or threaten to kick or bite him, & if he still doesn't, she _WILL_ kick or bite him. He learns to heed her bodylanguage(you could call it 'pushing') in order to avoid the punishment. In the case of a human training, you might use light pressure on the lead(or flank, chest, wherever) to 'tell' your horse what to do, then if/when he doesn't follow your bodylanguage/light 'ask', use stronger pressure/punishment, that he's motivated to avoid - be it on the halter or otherwise if he still resists. In this way, they learn to respond to 'the softest cues'.

Most horse training(unless you're a 'purist' positive reinforcement trainer) is about negative reinforcement - that means pressure/release - you're removing(negative) something undesirable(pressure) in order to reinforce a behaviour. Yielding to pressure, including halter pressure is pretty important for just about anything at all people do with horses, in order to control them. Just because it's not natural for a horse to be pulled by a rope - or for that matter wear something on their head to enable that, or be tied or whatever, doesn't make it a Bad Thing. Done well & clearly, using negative reinforcement or pressure/release doesn't have to mean you make things really unpleasant/painful, or that you have to use much pressure at all generally. Especially if you're using it in conjunction with reward based training.

All that's not to say understanding & using whatever is more natural/easier for the horse to understand is Bad either though. Or for that matter, that horses shouldn't be taught to yield in many different ways. I'd rather see someone put a bit of pressure on the horse's flank to encourage a turn than just hanging off the halter, because the horse doesn't understand what to do & is resisting. Or put some pressure behind the horse(with stick/whip/rope) to get them to come forward... or push on the chest to get a backup, rather than just waving a rope in it's face, or whatever. But they can(should, IMO) still learn to yield well from halter pressure etc, without angst & confusion, they just may need you to 'back up' that request that makes it easier for them to find the right answer.

So... when teaching a horse to yield towards me, I would indeed start with 'pulling' the lead - that's probably about the single most important specific to teach a horse, to yield to lead/rein/halter pressure. I put a bit of sideways 'pull' on the halter, of which is *instantly* released at the smallest 'try' in the right direction(negatively reinforcing). If the horse resists however, rather than just putting more pressure on the lead, I'd keep the same tension while also helping make the Right behaviour more likely - therefore able to be reinforced - by putting some pressure on his flank(if I want a turn on the forehand or I don't care how he turns) too, and negatively reinforcing _that_ as well, when he moves over. Soon enough, the horse will try yielding to just the halter, not waiting for the 'pushing', then I can 'fade out' the other 'measures'.



> Now.... One last thing... the bridge of the nose is tender and is the area in which we use to hopefully get our horses to respond. Well, if there is already pressure being applied, then more force is needed. On that note... flat halters already present that pressure, so it was suggested to move over to a rope halter where there is minimal to none (depending upon brand), and then when pressure is applied its a clearer


The bridge of the nose has a lot of nerves near the surface & is indeed sensitive. And horses, wanting to avoid unpleasantness/discomfort, learn to yield to pressure on it. Just as they learn not to resist bit pressure, because it becomes uncomfortable/painful if they do. I think what you mean by flat halters already presenting pressure is about heavier flat halters, such as leather etc, putting more constant pressure on the nose than a light halter such as a rope one. Flat halters aren't always heavy & rope ones aren't always light as a feather either though, for one(especially as some like to use heavy clips & ropes...). 

So... an animal will become desensitised to a stimulus that is constant/never lets up, even if it's uncomfortable to start with(just think of the first time you wore a scarf or tie, or sunglasses... but soon enough you stopped noticing it). So if they're desensitised to it, then yes, you need to do something different/more to get them learning to respond. Flat, spread out pressure is less uncomfortable than the same amount of pressure in a smaller area, which is the actual reason rope halters can be more effective than flat ones in training to yield. So the 'signal' may well be 'clearer', because it's sharper, stronger discomfort, the horse is more motivated to avoid, not because it's less.


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