# Major Canter problems (video)



## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Ha, here is the video:



As you can see he is always switching his legs in the back.


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## AnneGage (Oct 25, 2009)

To help your horse improve his canter, you will need to go back to basics to improve his frame - how he carries himself. In your video, he is in an inverted frame in all 3 gaits. That means his head and neck are up and his back is dropped. In this frame, he cannot bring his hindquarters well underneath himself. 










He is also counter bent meaning his body is bent to the left when he is going to the right (and vice versa). As a result, he is unbalanced and falling in to the circle.

To perform at his best, the horse needs to work with his back at least level. This frame allows the horse to create impulsion by engaging his hindquarters as they reach well underneath his body. His hindquarters are driving his forward movement. His head and neck can then work as the balancing mechanism they are built to be. The further the hind legs reach under the body, the more the back naturally lifts. The horse can move with elegance and ease through all transitions and in all gaits even when carrying a rider.

You need to go back to basics with your horse and get him working in a long and low frame first. This will lengthen his tight back and neck muscles and start to strengthen his weak hindquarters. As his suppleness and muscle strength improve, the next stage is to bring him into a level frame.

Going back to basics means that you begin at the walk and development good walk/halt/walk transitions and changes of direction without any inverting (high headed frame). When those are consistent, move on to walk/trot transitions - again focusing on keeping your horse in a level or low frame. Only when you have developed consistency and your horse has built up the strength in his hindquarters and back muscles do you begin work on the canter. This takes time and it will help you if you can work with an experienced coach/trainer. Find one who does not use gadgets to "fix" problems. Your riding and knowledge will also improve.

Take a look at my blog for more information on how your horse's shape affects the quality of his performance.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Hm, looks physical to me. Did the vet study him while he was cantering?


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thank you! That helps alot! I ask him to get his head down while riding but he likes to put it back up. So you are not a fan of tie downs or martingales?


AnneGage said:


> To help your horse improve his canter, you will need to go back to basics to improve his frame - how he carries himself. In your video, he is in an inverted frame in all 3 gaits. That means his head and neck are up and his back is dropped. In this frame, he cannot bring his hindquarters well underneath himself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Not while cantering no, but I asked her. She said she thought is was a muscle issue and that he is middle aged.


Beling said:


> Hm, looks physical to me. Did the vet study him while he was cantering?


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Have you tried a chiropractor? Might think about it.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

The vet said he did not have back problems.


franknbeans said:


> Have you tried a chiropractor? Might think about it.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

Actually, I was thinking hip or stifle problems. I think he has lovely gaits otherwise, but it seems as if he's uncomfortable.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> The vet said he did not have back problems.


He may not have back problems. Although he moves much like my Rascal did when I first got him. Pelvic injury was our culprit. He is physically unable to get his legs far enough under him to achieve proper balance and collection. The injury doesn't allow the pelvic tilt and elongation of the spine for a proper frame. He carries his head high because he is struggling for balance. The misfires that I see are like Rascals in a lot of ways. 

Rascal couldn't get his back end to keep pace with the front. We still have days where he has this problem at a canter. Even at a walk before we got some of his muscles built up. He had NO muscle and is still under muscled in his topline. He will most likely always be this way.... Time, therapy, chiro, diet, and loads of exercise have helped a LOT. But this will always be an issue for him.


ETA: This was also extremely painful at the canter to start with. He kept, for want of a better term, pulling a groin muscle.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Sorry, but when it comes to stuff like this-I will call my chiro no matter what the vet says. Sure can't hurt at this point.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thank you! I think I will have the vet look at it one more time 


Beling said:


> Actually, I was thinking hip or stifle problems. I think he has lovely gaits otherwise, but it seems as if he's uncomfortable.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

My 18 yr old Fox Trotter does the same thing. I don't know if cantering is naturally hard for gaited horses or if it is just that everyone focuses on their intermediate gaits and never really rides the canter. Probably both!

So I feel for ya! 

I have been working on not letting my mare go hollow at faster gaits but it's hard because it seems to be her modus operandi. I have had my best luck cantering her up slight inclines because it shifts her weight back to her hindquarters. 

Cantering her (which I do just for fun out on the trails) is kind of an interesting experience. She is either pacing, cantering, half of both, or sometimes I will get a lovely canter until I feel this big jarring motion on her back end, which feels like a car shifting into gears very roughly, which I'm sure is her cross cantering like your horse. So long as we don't go down and I get some canter strides that is a successful canter for her, lol! :lol:

I know my horse is traveling hollow at faster gaits because pacing is also a sign of hollowness. But holding her together is easier said than done. 

At a walk she will actually collect a bit, but the faster we go, the hollower she travels.

Anyway, from what I understand this is a common thing for gaited horses. I don't think it necessarily means he is in pain somewhere. More like he doesn't know how to use his body at speed. Just my 2 cents anyway.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Does he do this under saddle also? I guess I missed that if you said. Just a suggestion-if you are going to have the vet look again-why not try another set of eyes? At least another vet if you won't try a chiro.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Yes, he is a TWH  Thanks for that info! I think I am going to first work on getting his head low and consisitant in the trot, (he basically has it in the walk) and then work on the canter. When he lowers his head in the trot I feel he is moving better so I think that will apply for the canter.

I will go back to the start and work on those things!

Thanks so much  Keep bringing ideas everyone!


trailhorserider said:


> My 18 yr old Fox Trotter does the same thing. I don't know if cantering is naturally hard for gaited horses or if it is just that everyone focuses on their intermediate gaits and never really rides the canter. Probably both!
> 
> So I feel for ya!
> 
> ...


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks for the info. He has never had an injury, I have looked at the vet records and talked to the previous owners. I think I will have to work on the frame (head) and slowly work that into the canter in time. Patience really is a virtue 


Rascaholic said:


> He may not have back problems. Although he moves much like my Rascal did when I first got him. Pelvic injury was our culprit. He is physically unable to get his legs far enough under him to achieve proper balance and collection. The injury doesn't allow the pelvic tilt and elongation of the spine for a proper frame. He carries his head high because he is struggling for balance. The misfires that I see are like Rascals in a lot of ways.
> 
> Rascal couldn't get his back end to keep pace with the front. We still have days where he has this problem at a canter. Even at a walk before we got some of his muscles built up. He had NO muscle and is still under muscled in his topline. He will most likely always be this way.... Time, therapy, chiro, diet, and loads of exercise have helped a LOT. But this will always be an issue for him.
> 
> ...


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks everyone! Keep the ideas coming 
http://danawilly.weebly.com/uploads/8/4/4/5/8445771/871464_orig.jpg


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Yes, he does. I think I will do that. Thanks!


franknbeans said:


> Does he do this under saddle also? I guess I missed that if you said. Just a suggestion-if you are going to have the vet look again-why not try another set of eyes? At least another vet if you won't try a chiro.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> Thanks for the info. He has never had an injury, I have looked at the vet records and talked to the previous owners. I think I will have to work on the frame (head) and slowly work that into the canter in time. Patience really is a virtue


My guy is also a TWH. Honestly I keep looking at the video and I see a horse in pain. He just moves stiff,odd,gimpy,weird. I could be wrong. It's just my opinion. 

Seriously though, when I see that type of back end movement I think pain, pain, and more pain. It's the only time I have ever seen that type of hitchy skipping steps and I have seen it more than I like to think about.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

He isn't in pain. I have had more than one vet look and other people. I think it is a balance issue and that he needs more back end muscle. 



Rascaholic said:


> My guy is also a TWH. Honestly I keep looking at the video and I see a horse in pain. He just moves stiff,odd,gimpy,weird. I could be wrong. It's just my opinion.
> 
> Seriously though, when I see that type of back end movement I think pain, pain, and more pain. It's the only time I have ever seen that type of hitchy skipping steps and I have seen it more than I like to think about.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Overall, what I can take from this threat is that I need to go back to the basics,
get his head low and consistent and work uphill, in time it will come 
Thanks everyone!


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Mine is a TWH X-and he used to crossfire on the lunge sometimes. Drove me nuts! Reining training has taken care of that! He uses himself really well now. I will say he still has one lead that he feels "twist". Like he is cross firing, but he is not. He will have the Chiro see him as soon as he gets back in June. But, building and retraining his muscles has helped.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

It drives me nuts too lol 
I think that is totally true!


franknbeans said:


> Mine is a TWH X-and he used to crossfire on the lunge sometimes. Drove me nuts! Reining training has taken care of that! He uses himself really well now. I will say he still has one lead that he feels "twist". Like he is cross firing, but he is not. He will have the Chiro see him as soon as he gets back in June. But, building and retraining his muscles has helped.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

SO what do you do with those horses?


Rascaholic said:


> My guy is also a TWH. Honestly I keep looking at the video and I see a horse in pain. He just moves stiff,odd,gimpy,weird. I could be wrong. It's just my opinion.
> 
> Seriously though, when I see that type of back end movement I think pain, pain, and more pain. It's the only time I have ever seen that type of hitchy skipping steps and I have seen it more than I like to think about.


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## Dark Horse (Aug 7, 2011)

I really appreciated what AnneGage had to say and couldn't agree with her more. I had a tw mare that cross fired when I first got her and getting her to take the correct lead and have self carriage was a challenge. Before this horse even came into my barn I had a dressage trainer lined up to help us achieve suppleness and a comfy canter.
It's common for gaited horses to cross fire. I think it's because they are so open stifled, it makes it harder, so they really DO look gimpy, in pain and generally confused..they just plain old don't know where their feet are <g>.

At 18yrs old, some arthritis could be settling in to the hocks. If your vet says the horse is sound then it's a matter of exactly what AG says. What worked for us was using a longe line and full tack. We ran the line through the d-part of the bit and up over her head to attach to the other side of the bit much like reins would be. For me, I'd never free longe with side reins...too many things to go wrong. 
Also, teach your horse long and low...google it and/or have a trainer come out and show you. My horse responded incredibly well with it and we used it as a reward to not only stretch her back muscles, it put her in a happier place and also got her reaching for the bit. We taught her the que when we gently slid the bit or when she really caught on, all I had to do was gently touch my rein and she'd drop her head into a comfy frame and round her back. Tie down and martingales can definately work, but sometimes can be used as a quick fix or for too long of a training session and cause more damage than good. NOT saying that's what you're doing, it's something I've just seen over and over again.
It took us close to a year of consistant work to have this mare take the correct lead and achieve self balance on the circle with a rider. It was worth every reminder of "ringing the phone" signals down to the bit to ask her to bring her head back down when I watched my trainer ride the circle at a beautiful clean canter without the horse leaning to the outside and she wasn't hauling on the reins to balance her but instead, had both hands on her neck. Not an easy task for a tw and I applaud my trainer for her hard work and dedication..it certainly wasn't because of me, LOL. Best of luck!!


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks SO much! I agree with her too 

They do seem to do it alot, even my friend's 8 year old TWH does it. 

The side reins clearly didn't work LOL he still kept his head really high, even being on the tightest ring.

I have a good solid walk with the head, but in the trot and canter he likes to put it up. I wiggle my reins and push him into the bridle and he lowers his head, he just won't keep it down.

I try to do so in the canter but he is all over the place I just try to keep him from doing something not so smart. 

So the only thing that worked for you was getting a long low frame? How do you keep it in the canter? My horse just puts his head right up after I release pressure.

Did circles help? What else did you do? How often did you work your horse?

Sorry for all the questions  Thanks so much!


Dark Horse said:


> I really appreciated what AnneGage had to say and couldn't agree with her more. I had a tw mare that cross fired when I first got her and getting her to take the correct lead and have self carriage was a challenge. Before this horse even came into my barn I had a dressage trainer lined up to help us achieve suppleness and a comfy canter.
> It's common for gaited horses to cross fire. I think it's because they are so open stifled, it makes it harder, so they really DO look gimpy, in pain and generally confused..they just plain old don't know where their feet are <g>.
> 
> At 18yrs old, some arthritis could be settling in to the hocks. If your vet says the horse is sound then it's a matter of exactly what AG says. What worked for us was using a longe line and full tack. We ran the line through the d-part of the bit and up over her head to attach to the other side of the bit much like reins would be. For me, I'd never free longe with side reins...too many things to go wrong.
> ...


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Well, mine is NOT GAITED, but, circles are a lot of what reining training is, and it sure has helped him! he is much better balanced, and pushes from behind.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

The horse looks gaited to me. I think it's not a cantering breed....


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> SO what do you do with those horses?


That depends on long term prognosis, general health, and rehab prospects. If they are mine; I have put them down, rehabbed to light riding, pasture puffed, and rehabbed to working riding. 
It all depends on the horse and the situation. If the vet says they are going to stay in significant pain, then I'll end their life rather than let them suffer. It all depends on the horse.
I used to help with and rescue a lot of horses. I can't do it anymore. I got sick of being the one to pull the trigger on someone else's mistakes/accidents/neglect. 
I take care of my boy (pasture puff forever?) and am happy. I donate money to help others rescue, rehab, and care for those types now. I still volunteer with a friend when I can. I am also always there for the phone call asking for help.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

But when you went back on the rail wouldn't he just go back to cross firing?


franknbeans said:


> Well, mine is NOT GAITED, but, circles are a lot of what reining training is, and it sure has helped him! he is much better balanced, and pushes from behind.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

He is a TWH. They do canter, they usually need work though. Why miss out on a gait?


farmpony84 said:


> The horse looks gaited to me. I think it's not a cantering breed....


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I agree with the others, he needs to learn his balance. I don't think it is something to panic on, just like DarkHorse said, it took a year. I am in for the long term commitment or I would have sold him. He is so sweet, that I rather have a project horse than buy one that is ready to show. I feel the learning experience is the best part of it. 



Rascaholic said:


> That depends on long term prognosis, general health, and rehab prospects. If they are mine; I have put them down, rehabbed to light riding, pasture puffed, and rehabbed to working riding.
> It all depends on the horse and the situation. If the vet says they are going to stay in significant pain, then I'll end their life rather than let them suffer. It all depends on the horse.
> I used to help with and rescue a lot of horses. I can't do it anymore. I got sick of being the one to pull the trigger on someone else's mistakes/accidents/neglect.
> I take care of my boy (pasture puff forever?) and am happy. I donate money to help others rescue, rehab, and care for those types now. I still volunteer with a friend when I can. I am also always there for the phone call asking for help.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

LOL I am sorry of the previous post came off as sounding pompous and bitchy/snotty. I reread your post and my own then decided maybe I misunderstood.

Are you asking how to deal with pain issues on horses like Rascal? How to rehab them, when possible?


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> He is a TWH. They do canter, they usually need work though. Why miss out on a gait?


They don't all canter. I have a walking horse that can canter and trot but I prefer her better as a gaited horse, it's what she was built for and what she's most comfortable doing.

If your horse has no injury ie stifle or hip and you feel like you can get it to canter then it's going to take consistancy. I would think if it started to gait then you would stop and start over until it learned the movement you are looking for.

Good luck to you.


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> He isn't in pain. I have had more than one vet look and other people. I think it is a balance issue and that he needs more back end muscle.


Just because someone can look at a horse and say "he's not in pain" doesn't mean it's true. I know my horse better then everyone and I kept saying that something wasn't right. Her gait felt off. I had vets look at her, soundness exam done, xrays. And they found nothing.

I recently look her to a chiropractor, and she's a completely different horse. She moves differently, she's more relaxed. Her gaits have improved. I've owned her since she was 7 months old, she's never been in an accident, never been injured.

I second having a chiropractor look at him. Many people thought I was crazy and said not to waste my money, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Totally worth the money and we've changed some people's opinions about equine chiropractic work.

They will also give you exercises to do that will help a horse lift his back, use his hindquarters better etc. It's not just about "cracking the back" and hoping to see an improvement. You'd be surprised at the stuff they can find! At 18 years old, I'd be willing to bet a chiropractor could do him wonders. You just have to keep an open mind. Especially if vets haven't found anything wrong with him, a fresh set of eyes could be just the trick!


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I can't see the video but I have to first comment about the side reins.

Putting them on the tightest hole will not help him to relax, which is the opposite of what he's doing when his head is up in the air.

Take the side reins off, they aren't being used properly.. 

Second, I will comment on what I think is going on, due to lack of ability to see the video. He's not using his back from the sound of it which means he's hollow and probably not balanced either. And could be in pain. First, check to make sure he isn't in pain. I'd check with a different vet and find a chiropractor or even a equine massage person. Check the saddle fit too. Check for feet bruising or underlying problems. 

After everything has been checked, I recommend you really need to go back to absolute basics with him.

My advice? He needs to go back to walking and learn to relax and work with his back and work with the rider. Don't even trot him until his walk is perfect. Even if it bores you to tears, and your horse to tears, as soon as he begins to understand how to use his back, consider that a good note and end on it. Build on that, until he can do it walking comfortably, then move up to the trot transition. Don't keep trotting if he throws his head and loses his back muscle. Back down to a walk, get him prepared, then trot transition again. If he lasts, good! Do a few steps and then back to walk. End on a good note.

Once he can trot with his back, without being hollow, then you can do the same for canter. Transition using back. When he stops using his back, back down to a trot, and if he's wound up at the trot, go to a walk. Prepare.. back to a trot, if he's good, back to a canter transition. If he handled it, continue then (BEFORE he falls apart) go back to a trot.

While you're doing these gaits, incorporate figures every so often to change things up, lateral movements if he knows them. Get him relaxed before you switch things up.

End on a good note. Yes this will be frustrating. Don't try to do it all in one lesson/session. Break it up into little sessions. Help him relax and engage that back. The head is part of using his back in such that *when he uses his back, he will be relaxed and his head will not brace upwards.* I'm not an expert, but that's how I would do it. 

Good luck. That's my advice.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

No, its ok  what did you do to those horses to help them canter correctly?


Rascaholic said:


> LOL I am sorry of the previous post came off as sounding pompous and bitchy/snotty. I reread your post and my own then decided maybe I misunderstood.
> 
> Are you asking how to deal with pain issues on horses like Rascal? How to rehab them, when possible?


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Right, your correct. Thank you 


farmpony84 said:


> They don't all canter. I have a walking horse that can canter and trot but I prefer her better as a gaited horse, it's what she was built for and what she's most comfortable doing.
> 
> If your horse has no injury ie stifle or hip and you feel like you can get it to canter then it's going to take consistancy. I would think if it started to gait then you would stop and start over until it learned the movement you are looking for.
> 
> Good luck to you.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thank you! I think I will try it  How often do you have to have the chiro. come out?



CLaPorte432 said:


> Just because someone can look at a horse and say "he's not in pain" doesn't mean it's true. I know my horse better then everyone and I kept saying that something wasn't right. Her gait felt off. I had vets look at her, soundness exam done, xrays. And they found nothing.
> 
> I recently look her to a chiropractor, and she's a completely different horse. She moves differently, she's more relaxed. Her gaits have improved. I've owned her since she was 7 months old, she's never been in an accident, never been injured.
> 
> ...


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

I adjusted him from the loosest to the tightest, and either way he still kept his head up. I do know how to use the side reins. Thanks for the advice though! 

I have checked that his saddle fit is good, his hoofs are healthy, the vet looked at him. I will look into a chiropractor. 

His walk is solid, I need to get his head more consistent but overall he looks good in the walk.

Thanks! That is great advice! I am planning on doing this. 



Skyseternalangel said:


> I can't see the video but I have to first comment about the side reins.
> 
> Putting them on the tightest hole will not help him to relax, which is the opposite of what he's doing when his head is up in the air.
> 
> ...


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> I adjusted him from the loosest to the tightest, and either way he still kept his head up. I do know how to use the side reins. Thanks for the advice though!


Oh I didn't mean misused by you, I think your horse just doesn't understand them. Hasn't figured them out which is probably why he's resisting them. Which is why I said I would take them off  

My horse took to them rather well, others don't understand what they're supposed to do with them. Different strokes for different folks.

And I hope I didn't sound rude, I wrote that all in good spirits =)


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## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> Thank you! I think I will try it  How often do you have to have the chiro. come out?


For my mare, I've only had the one adjustment. And I saw immediate improvement. I'm taking her back sometime in May to have another one before she starts racing this year. (We do speed events)

Your chiropractor will be able to tell you if you'll need more adjustments and how far apart they should be. My trainer's barn only has a chiropractor out twice a year. 

Like I said in the previous post too, you'll get exercises that should be done daily/multiple times a day in order to help your horse. I did mine twice a day, at morning and nighttime feedings for 3 weeks, and then backed down to once a day. Usually before my mare is ridden to help loosen her up and stretch her muscles.

I'm very pleased. :-D


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## Equilove (Feb 21, 2011)

I was riding a TWH yesterday that does the same thing. I cantered her but other than cantering in the field, she isn't ever cantered under saddle. She hasn't got the proper muscling for it, and that made her unbalanced. Most avid walking-horse fanatics don't want their horse's precious gait to be 'tarnished' by the horse breaking into a canter, which is why a lot of folks will say things like TWHs aren't a cantering breed. It's because really, they're not. BUT, that doesn't mean they CAN'T. There's nothing wrong with cantering your gaited horse, if that's whatcha wanna do! Lol. Just don't expect a canter similar to a quarter horse or thoroughbred, because TWHs are built so much differently, and it takes a lot more work to build up the proper muscling in their back and hind end for them to canter balanced - especially with a rider! 

Honestly, the people who are telling you the horse is in pain aren't saying "OI! He's gonna throw a hip out if you keep that up!" I think what they're saying is comparable to someone who is a professional runner going out and lifting weights for a few hours. Not built for it, not accustomed to it, and not properly conditioned for it. OUCH!

Once the horse is balanced, which requires work through the hips, back, and neck (topline), you will see improvement.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> No, its ok  what did you do to those horses to help them canter correctly?


Rehabbing started on the flat. Then we went to hills at a walk. Walking uphill is harder than running up it and it lessened the risk of straining something again. Then came the round pen for simple conditioning if they couldn't be ridden. Walks walks and more walks on the trails to keep their minds occupied if they couldn't be ridden. 

I think I still have a couple of the rehab plans. If I can find them I'll scan them and post them.

ETA:
It was all about building muscle and teaching them to use it correctly.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Oh haha, I thought that is what you meant. 
I think your right, he doesn't know what they are for. Hahah 
How do I know if he is using his back?



Skyseternalangel said:


> Oh I didn't mean misused by you, I think your horse just doesn't understand them. Hasn't figured them out which is probably why he's resisting them. Which is why I said I would take them off
> 
> My horse took to them rather well, others don't understand what they're supposed to do with them. Different strokes for different folks.
> 
> And I hope I didn't sound rude, I wrote that all in good spirits =)


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Oh ok! I do not get to the barn everyday, I board him 


CLaPorte432 said:


> For my mare, I've only had the one adjustment. And I saw immediate improvement. I'm taking her back sometime in May to have another one before she starts racing this year. (We do speed events)
> 
> Your chiropractor will be able to tell you if you'll need more adjustments and how far apart they should be. My trainer's barn only has a chiropractor out twice a year.
> 
> ...


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks! Yes, I totally agree.

I just have to get his muscle up I believe 


Equilove said:


> I was riding a TWH yesterday that does the same thing. I cantered her but other than cantering in the field, she isn't ever cantered under saddle. She hasn't got the proper muscling for it, and that made her unbalanced. Most avid walking-horse fanatics don't want their horse's precious gait to be 'tarnished' by the horse breaking into a canter, which is why a lot of folks will say things like TWHs aren't a cantering breed. It's because really, they're not. BUT, that doesn't mean they CAN'T. There's nothing wrong with cantering your gaited horse, if that's whatcha wanna do! Lol. Just don't expect a canter similar to a quarter horse or thoroughbred, because TWHs are built so much differently, and it takes a lot more work to build up the proper muscling in their back and hind end for them to canter balanced - especially with a rider!
> 
> Honestly, the people who are telling you the horse is in pain aren't saying "OI! He's gonna throw a hip out if you keep that up!" I think what they're saying is comparable to someone who is a professional runner going out and lifting weights for a few hours. Not built for it, not accustomed to it, and not properly conditioned for it. OUCH!
> 
> Once the horse is balanced, which requires work through the hips, back, and neck (topline), you will see improvement.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks! Yes, I agree!


Rascaholic said:


> Rehabbing started on the flat. Then we went to hills at a walk. Walking uphill is harder than running up it and it lessened the risk of straining something again. Then came the round pen for simple conditioning if they couldn't be ridden. Walks walks and more walks on the trails to keep their minds occupied if they couldn't be ridden.
> 
> I think I still have a couple of the rehab plans. If I can find them I'll scan them and post them.
> 
> ...


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> Oh haha, I thought that is what you meant.
> I think your right, he doesn't know what they are for. Hahah
> How do I know if he is using his back?


You know how a horse has those muscles along his spine that we call the topline? Well when a horse uses their back, you'll feel the spine lift up underneath you.. they become rounder. Visually too.

Let me try to get some pics of me lunging my horse..

That would be using his back. See how his spine (before his hip) is rounded up:
http://www.horseforum.com/attachments/81550d1323985353-progress-p1360733.jpg

This is not using his back.. it's dipping down like a banana like you can see here:

http://www.horseforum.com/attachments/88486d1329281251-umm-its-effort-img_0195.jpg

He is hollow, meaning his back isn't relaxed, being on the wrong lead, not balanced so he's using the side reins to lean on, he's rigid and bracing all over.. and you can see from his high head set that he was not really in the zone. It happens. We were working on the canter and that gait held some bad memories for him.

But I took away his crutch (the lungeline, he'd lean on it) and he began to lean on his side reins for balance. Now he's fine.

But that's the different between using their back and not. _Avoid the banana shape_ 

You can't force it.. it's something the horse has to do on their own. But you can encourage them by sending their energy forward and keeping quiet on their back, letting them balance and relax.

Here's a good thread I made that will help your horse relax:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/stretches-muscle-building-your-horse-108730/#post1444393

It has a reference to another thread (my favourite one) that talks about building topline (those muscles on their side of the spine.)

Hope that helps


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Yep, I do.  He looks real nice in that one picture!

In the other one, doesn't he have the wrong head in the back?  

He is a nice mover! I will avoid the banana shape haha

That does thank you!




Skyseternalangel said:


> You know how a horse has those muscles along his spine that we call the topline? Well when a horse uses their back, you'll feel the spine lift up underneath you.. they become rounder. Visually too.
> 
> Let me try to get some pics of me lunging my horse..
> 
> ...


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> Yep, I do.  He looks real nice in that one picture!
> 
> In the other one, doesn't he have the wrong head in the back?
> 
> ...


Yes hahaha he was trying so hard to canter without the lunge line. I even made a thread of it in the pictures section:

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-pictures/umm-its-effort-113113/

You can see how he started out, and how by the end he was beginning to get it. Though he got the wrong lead often. I don't have pictures of him doing it right (my mom is the photographer and she poops out really fast lol)

You're welcome!


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Did just doing the 'low and long' stop him from cross firing?


Skyseternalangel said:


> Yes hahaha he was trying so hard to canter without the lunge line. I even made a thread of it in the pictures section:
> 
> http://www.horseforum.com/horse-pictures/umm-its-effort-113113/
> 
> ...


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> Did just doing the 'low and long' stop him from cross firing?


Well once he relaxes and gets his balance, then you can both work through the foot falls for the canter. It'll come easier for him once you do. Then it's a matter of enforcing the correct lead and helping them change the wrong one.

My horse would cross fire too. He has to relax and then we worked on the ground getting him to canter each session until he could stop leaning on the lunge and leaning on the side reins. Under saddle he had a little bit of an issue but now it's just a matter of him getting more cantering done. 

You'll get there, but your walk and trot needs to be relaxed and put together first.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I did NOT read the whole thread, so forgive me if I duplicate someone else.

When I watched the first video, (only one I watched) it looks like the horse is kind of slow in moving both hind legs. It almost feels like there is a slight delay, or "hitch" in the way they move. I sometimes get that way myself when my kneecap isn't tracking correctly in it's groove. This makes me wonder if that hrose doesn't have some kind of stifle (which is the horse's equivilent of a knee) issue with its' patella not tracking, or it locking. because it manages ok at a walk , when there is time for it kind of move throught the "hitch", but at the canter, I get the feeling that the delay , the overly slow movement of the hind legs eventually catches up with it and forces it to switch leads in back, kind of scrabble and the switch back again. 
I really think there is a physical issue.


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## AnneGage (Oct 25, 2009)

Black Beauty 94 said:


> Thank you! That helps alot! I ask him to get his head down while riding but he likes to put it back up. So you are not a fan of tie downs or martingales?


No, I am not a fan of using anything that forces the horse into a "frame". The horse needs to build the strength and flexibility in his own body - over time - to carry himself comfortably in the frame. I wouldn't want to go to a yoga instructor who forced me into a posture. It would do more harm than good. The horse's body is no different.

I suspect your horse has been carrying himself in this inverted frame for years. When this happens, the muscles atrophy in some areas and build in the "wrong" places. Just like people who carry themselves with bad posture, the shape feels "normal" and they resist changing it at first. The muscles also resist the change and it takes time to for tight muscles to lengthen and release and atrophied muscles to build. 

Massage therapy, chiropractic and even acupuncture or acupressure can help the process. Aiding the release of tight, stuck muscles. These muscles can be so tight that they may have cause the bone into misalignment. If I were working with your horse, I would have him assessed by a good chiropractor and massage therapist to identify any underlying problems and help his body release tension.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks so much! Great info  I am trying low and long today!


Skyseternalangel said:


> Well once he relaxes and gets his balance, then you can both work through the foot falls for the canter. It'll come easier for him once you do. Then it's a matter of enforcing the correct lead and helping them change the wrong one.
> 
> My horse would cross fire too. He has to relax and then we worked on the ground getting him to canter each session until he could stop leaning on the lunge and leaning on the side reins. Under saddle he had a little bit of an issue but now it's just a matter of him getting more cantering done.
> 
> You'll get there, but your walk and trot needs to be relaxed and put together first.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks, I think it is because he has a weak hindend. 


tinyliny said:


> I did NOT read the whole thread, so forgive me if I duplicate someone else.
> 
> When I watched the first video, (only one I watched) it looks like the horse is kind of slow in moving both hind legs. It almost feels like there is a slight delay, or "hitch" in the way they move. I sometimes get that way myself when my kneecap isn't tracking correctly in it's groove. This makes me wonder if that hrose doesn't have some kind of stifle (which is the horse's equivilent of a knee) issue with its' patella not tracking, or it locking. because it manages ok at a walk , when there is time for it kind of move throught the "hitch", but at the canter, I get the feeling that the delay , the overly slow movement of the hind legs eventually catches up with it and forces it to switch leads in back, kind of scrabble and the switch back again.
> I really think there is a physical issue.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thank you, I am contacting a chiro as of now, I know sometimes chiros can do more harm than good though.
I think it is a matter of developing the muscle, like you said. I need to let him get it on his own.
Thanks again 


AnneGage said:


> No, I am not a fan of using anything that forces the horse into a "frame". The horse needs to build the strength and flexibility in his own body - over time - to carry himself comfortably in the frame. I wouldn't want to go to a yoga instructor who forced me into a posture. It would do more harm than good. The horse's body is no different.
> 
> I suspect your horse has been carrying himself in this inverted frame for years. When this happens, the muscles atrophy in some areas and build in the "wrong" places. Just like people who carry themselves with bad posture, the shape feels "normal" and they resist changing it at first. The muscles also resist the change and it takes time to for tight muscles to lengthen and release and atrophied muscles to build.
> 
> Massage therapy, chiropractic and even acupuncture or acupressure can help the process. Aiding the release of tight, stuck muscles. These muscles can be so tight that they may have cause the bone into misalignment. If I were working with your horse, I would have him assessed by a good chiropractor and massage therapist to identify any underlying problems and help his body release tension.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Beling said:


> Actually, I was thinking hip or stifle problems. I think he has lovely gaits otherwise, but it seems as if he's uncomfortable.


 
I agree - right rear especially but the whole hip and on look odd.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

He was NOT ridden for 2 years when I got him. (in 2010) and was not gaited or cantered in 10 years. He does not know how to hold himself I believe and I need to start at the walk then trot frame and when he has that solid I will move onto the canter. He does not do it in the gallop. It is a matter of balance, I believe but I am having a chiro look at him early next month. I will not canter him until he can hold himself long and low. 


mls said:


> I agree - right rear especially but the whole hip and on look odd.


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## Dark Horse (Aug 7, 2011)

Once again, I'm going to say I appreciate what AG has to say. I haven't read all the posts since last night so if I'm repeating what'd already been suggested, I'm sorry! 

If your horse is 18yrs old, I'm willing to bet that he was trained in the "old school" way of training twh's. Could have had (not saying it's a given) the heavy keg shoes, or if has done any showing, has been sored. Tw's were very much DIScouraged from cantering. The did canter in show, if you can call that ugly painful gait a canter...but once the shoes and stacks came off, the poor horse didn't know one foot from the other. So, this could be a completely new and confusing venture for him, as well as you.

One the chiro has ruled out any physical issues, google long and low. I'd also ask AG about the bit you're using as you want to encourage reaching towards the bit, asking for communication and not bracing up and away from it. I LIVED on the circle to teach long/low, balance, etc, but also incorporated lots of lateral movement. Can you find yourself an open minded dressage instructor? That'd be a big help in finding balance. 

I'd also not be too concerned if your gaited horse is trotting or pacing while on the longe line. If he's solid in his gaits, he'll be fine under saddle. Just remember to be patient, this takes a long time and he's got to undo years of bad habits, much like AG said. I haven't yet, but you may want to check out her blog. Another good source is Anita Howe..google her and you'll get lot's of good information. Like others have said, remember to end on a good note, know he's going to have "off" days just like we all do and not to drill and drill him until he hates to see you coming. Knowing when to call it quits is just as important as moving forward and having a professional there to help guide you is priceless. Even the pro's have "eyes on the ground" coaching them


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thank you SO much! This helped alot! I had the vet come out, (thanks to the guys to told me too) and she thought it was hock problems. She said I could buy a 45/month supplement or get hock injections that last any where from 3-12 months but are $325 each time. Which one should I go with? Thanks SOO much to everyone on this forum  

I still believe he needs work on his balance but will improve HUGE once I start him on one of those things.

I will take all these suggestions for the next time I ride after he gets some healing time. 



Dark Horse said:


> Once again, I'm going to say I appreciate what AG has to say. I haven't read all the posts since last night so if I'm repeating what'd already been suggested, I'm sorry!
> 
> If your horse is 18yrs old, I'm willing to bet that he was trained in the "old school" way of training twh's. Could have had (not saying it's a given) the heavy keg shoes, or if has done any showing, has been sored. Tw's were very much DIScouraged from cantering. The did canter in show, if you can call that ugly painful gait a canter...but once the shoes and stacks came off, the poor horse didn't know one foot from the other. So, this could be a completely new and confusing venture for him, as well as you.
> 
> ...


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Dark Horse, I do believe he was showed such as that when he was a baby, he is learning something new, Thank you again!  Patience is so important! Once he has some time off and feels better I will work again on the headset, the long and low then into the canter.

I took these tips today and he was VERY good  We only worked 20 minutes because he was doing so well


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm so glad things are working out! You're a great horse owner for doing all you can for your boy.

I'm proud of you! 

Keep us updated! Feel free to PM me too


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks so much! I am just glad I found the problem. I sure will  


Skyseternalangel said:


> I'm so glad things are working out! You're a great horse owner for doing all you can for your boy.
> 
> I'm proud of you!
> 
> Keep us updated! Feel free to PM me too


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

I'm glad you found out what was wrong. I'd still recommend having him adjusted, just because his hocks are not functioning at tip top performance. It'll throw his whole back out of whack.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thank you! Do you think hock injections or supplements?



Rascaholic said:


> I'm glad you found out what was wrong. I'd still recommend having him adjusted, just because his hocks are not functioning at tip top performance. It'll throw his whole back out of whack.


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## gonewiththewind (Apr 7, 2012)

How old was he when you bought the horse? He could have had an injury that the previous owner did not disclose.. Or it could be an age related stifle or hip issue. He may have developed arthritis or something of the sort that doesn't let him pull that correct stifle up so he results to cross cantering. Or you could try lounging him on a line? It could help him balance more inward and not have the option to switch his back lead.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Hi,
I had the vet look at him, he does have arthritis. I will be able to start him on supplements in the next week or so  Until then I will just walk him
He was 15 


gonewiththewind said:


> How old was he when you bought the horse? He could have had an injury that the previous owner did not disclose.. Or it could be an age related stifle or hip issue. He may have developed arthritis or something of the sort that doesn't let him pull that correct stifle up so he results to cross cantering. Or you could try lounging him on a line? It could help him balance more inward and not have the option to switch his back lead.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Hi Everyone,
I just wanted to updated you on my horse.
He was doing very well on the previcox for about a month, but now his hocks don't look as good anymore. I am planning to take him to a specialist on lameness because my vet doesn't know what to say anymore about him.
What kind of treatments are there for the hocks and stifles? Thanks!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am sorry that I don't have more specific advice for you , regarding treatment of the hocks. I just wanted to comment on how very gracious you have been to each and every person who offered their thoughts and (sometimes conflicting) advice to you. This is such a refreshing attitude for someone to have on a public forum, where you really take a risk when you ask for open opinions/ideas. You never know whether you will agree with what comes your way or not, but you have been very respectful to each respondent and willing to hear what they say.


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## Black Beauty 94 (Dec 26, 2011)

Thank you, that means alot. I appreciate any help to get my horse feeling good again 


tinyliny said:


> I am sorry that I don't have more specific advice for you , regarding treatment of the hocks. I just wanted to comment on how very gracious you have been to each and every person who offered their thoughts and (sometimes conflicting) advice to you. This is such a refreshing attitude for someone to have on a public forum, where you really take a risk when you ask for open opinions/ideas. You never know whether you will agree with what comes your way or not, but you have been very respectful to each respondent and willing to hear what they say.


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