# Can tobianos have frame?



## TimWhit91 (Feb 3, 2012)

this site  

down at the bottom there is a picture of an overo mare with her tobiano foal. It says the only way to know if the foal is a carrier is to test it. So I assume a tobiano can be a carrier...


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## TimWhit91 (Feb 3, 2012)

I read further down and it gives some pretty good information on OLWS. Overos are not the only ones that can be carriers


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## Poco1220 (Apr 6, 2010)

France overo IS the lethal white gene. However it can be easily hidden. It is always better to test than risk it. If you test your mare and she's negative then she's safe to breed to anything. If she's positive then you should require seeing LWO test results on any stud before breeding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

She is positive.

He is Tobiano. So can he still be carrying frame?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Tobianos can and do carry frame. If the SO won't test him, find a different stud.


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## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay...Thanks. That's what I thought...better to be safe than sorry :/ I will not breed her to a stud that hasn't been tested...unless there is absolutely no way they have frame.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

There is no way to know there is no chance of frame if it is a stock type breed or TB unless they are tested.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

This guy has frame:











If the stud owner won't test for frame, I wouldn't ever breed to anything they own. Irresponsible morons.


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## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

I'd rather not post pics of someone else's stallion,but he has 4 very high white socks (like the ones in that pic ^^) and shoulder patches. I didn't see any face white in the photos that I saw through. His forelock may have been covering a little star.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

Actually if he has patches like the ones that the other horse has, he actually sounds like he has frame to me. One of the first things frame does on a tobiano horse is try to stop leg white. A tobiano with that much white you would expect the leg white to join to the body white. Frame stops that.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Tobiano's can test positive for frame. I know a girl that bred her tobiano mare to a Tobiano stud ,thought she was going to get a B/W Tobi possibly Homozygous well baby came out classic B/W frame overo in markings,boy was she surprised!! She named the foal Who Framed Me:lol:


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## Arab_Angel (Nov 22, 2006)

sorry to hijack the thread but is that every tobiano where the legs are "blocked" off? My baby girl has tobiano and sabino but now im wondering if she has frame too... she isnt a paint either. Her sire has almost same pattern and her dam is solid coloured


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

It's not every tobiano, but it is a good indicator. Your girl, well I certainly wouldn't breed her without testing her. I get a feeling that she has frame, but it's the jagged edges making me feel that, and it could be sabino too. Also where she has a lingering bit of colour on her back, that is almost surrounded by white. Frame likes colour on the spine.


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## Arab_Angel (Nov 22, 2006)

ok thank you! ill keep that in mind if i ever breed her


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

What breeds are her sire and dam?


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## JustAwesome (Jun 22, 2011)

I asked someone who has more experience with this type of thing..

tobiano is a separate gene and doesnt have the potential genetic problems that overo/OLW does...
BUT tobianos (and sollids) CAN carry the 'frame'/overo/OLW gene as well and may not show it


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## Arab_Angel (Nov 22, 2006)

dam is cleveland bay X tb and sire is tb X clyde X stock horse

and thanks JA that is interesting to know


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## BarrelCowgirl (Jun 4, 2012)

Better to be safe than sorry. I would test any horse that could have the posibility of Frame. Whether it's plain as day or hidden.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Have you considered just breeding to a solid instead? I'm so finicky about breeding to paints...I know that it's a frame x frame thing, but I'm SO paranoid these days.


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## BarrelCowgirl (Jun 4, 2012)

SorrelHorse said:


> Have you considered just breeding to a solid instead? I'm so finicky about breeding to paints...I know that it's a frame x frame thing, but I'm SO paranoid these days.


To my understanding though, solids can carry frame too. 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

BarrelCowgirl said:


> To my understanding though, solids can carry frame too.
> 
> Someone correct me if I'm wrong though.


This all over. This horse is positive for frame:










If the breed carries frame, you should test before breeding, unless both parents have been tested and you have seen the test papers. Even then, I would still test.


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

This is a stud I got after he was jumping his owners fences and covered some of my mares...owner turned him over to me and I gelded him..but I had him tested and he DOES carry frame!








AND this is my appaloosa mare who he covered and we were still able to give her the shot to stop it because she is a frame carrier as well.


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## BarrelCowgirl (Jun 4, 2012)

ladytaurean515 said:


> This is a stud I got after he was jumping his owners fences and covered some of my mares...owner turned him over to me and I gelded him..but I had him tested and he DOES carry frame!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 What a close call. I must say, I do like that mare.


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

Thanks....we had it aborted before we even knew for sure about him..just because of his markings we were afraid of him being a carrier. Yes she is a nice mare. I got lucky when I got her, but I am actually in the process of trading her for another app mare with a foal in utero and I will get her first foal off of her and my friends stallion.


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

JustAwesome said:


> I asked someone who has more experience with this type of thing..
> 
> tobiano is a separate gene and doesnt have the potential genetic problems that overo/OLW does...
> BUT tobianos (and sollids) CAN carry the 'frame'/overo/OLW gene as well and may not show it


Keep in mind that the term "overo" itself is 3 different genes. Splash and sabino are harmless to breed together, so not all horses labeled overo are going to cause lethal white foals. This is only frame, which, unfortunately, is notorious for minimal expression, meaning that every horse that could possibly carry the gene should be tested when considering breeding.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

What are all the characteristics that can show up in a color/coat pattern that indicate frame? And what breeds are known to carry the frame gene? I'm trying to learn everything I can about it..

Does this horse show signs of being frame?


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

The only way to be for sure is test....what markings do they label her as? She has a dark tail which is often not seen in a Tobiano..she has vertical patterns and mostly dark head often seen with Tobiano..so she shows signs of multiple spot patterns.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

What made me wonder if she is,is the way the white "runs" into the color and the little spots of color in the white;I had been told those are signs of frame..? She is a bay tobiano,so that's why the dark tail.


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

well mine in the above picture also was placed in reg. as bay tobiano..but they also indicated Sabino..which is some signs that mare shows...The white above the hocks...the halo around the spotting also could be called roaning signs of sabino...but mine also tested + for frame so he has more in him..his stallion was calssified as Tovero as some call it and Tobiano/Overo....so who knows....they can be soooo tricky


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

Interesting;I didn't think about her being sabino,but now that you point it out,some of the characteristics are there..


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

I seen though in your thread..the stallion you have considered for breeding if you do...has he been tested? If he is - for frame it shouldnt matter if yours carries it...I believe to get a LWO both parents must at least be heter and carry the frame gene.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

Umm,heter? What does that mean?


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

heterozygous..means not a dominant gene but a carrier usually


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

Heterozygous,of course! I was trying to figure out what this strange word was,didn't even think of it being an abbreviation,lol.


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

lol..its ok...that mare is beautiful..since getting that stallion(gelding) that got to my mares and waiting to see what color foals I get I have really started liking the color patterns


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm just starting learning more about them myself;I knew they were out there,but didn't really know their characteristics,ect. It's really quite extensive,way more to them then I first thought there to be.There's a whole world of learning to be done in the white color patterns alone! lol


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

Well I know this..my gelding is Tobiano/sabino and I guess frame since his test was nO....and both my mares are nn so there is a 50/50 of the foals being nO and nn......so who knows...although unplanned breedings and I now excited to see what we end up with.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

They need to hurry up and show us what they have in there!


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

I know they are killing me....I think Im fixing to just give up on foal watch and get a full nights sleep and watch them both have them!!!!


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm quickly getting to that point myself.. A full night's sleep is looking mighty good right about now!


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## Poseidon (Oct 1, 2010)

ladytaurean515 said:


> I seen though in your thread..the stallion you have considered for breeding if you do...has he been tested? If he is - for frame it shouldnt matter if yours carries it...I believe to get a LWO both parents must at least be heter and carry the frame gene.


A frame positive horse can ONLY be heterozygous. Homozygous frame is lethal, hence the "lethal white syndrome" name. If you breed an N/O horse to an N/O horse you will have a 25% chance of an O/O foal..which is LWOS. 

But yes, if the stallion has tested negative for frame, your mare's status won't matter. However, it is easier to test your mare and limit your options if she is N/O.


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

What's the difference between heterozygous and homozygous? I've had it explained to me before,but the explanation made no sense,so I don't think the person doing the explaining really knew for sure,lol..


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

country, heter means they carry often times as a hidden or recessive gene, ex(2 brown eyed parents BbXBb have a blue eyed child BB) means both parents had a recessive gene for blue eyes in their genes.Also means the offspring may carry it or show it as well. **** means a dominant gene also could be hidden but will show up in offspring. I have a bay mare who is **** for black. She has had a black foal from a black stallion and a black foal from a bay heter black stallion. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zygosity..this could help maybe.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Heterozygous is one copy of a gene. Homozygous is two.


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Ladytauren that is incorrect. A gene doesn't have to be dominant or recessive in order to be heterozygous of homozygous.


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

Punnett square - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
this is how I learned in college on determining genes of offspring


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

that is what that pink shows Nd, I didnt word it right but the link i added talks about the single and double gene


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

a **** will always be two capital letters


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Not true....

.ee << homozygous red

.Ee << heterozygous for black and red.

.EE << homozygous for black

(ETA had to put the . before the letters as the forum capitalizes the first letter... not cool)


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## ladytaurean515 (Apr 2, 2012)

Yeah..well that is true when working with horses I guess because of the different things you have to figure in.I stand corrected...lol...I guess just like that gelding is tobiano,sabino and frame


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

countryryder said:


> What are all the characteristics that can show up in a color/coat pattern that indicate frame? And what breeds are known to carry the frame gene? I'm trying to learn everything I can about it..
> 
> Does this horse show signs of being frame?


I think he looks like it is possible. Mostly because of the way the body white joins to the leg white so minimally. Frame likes to stop leg white if possible, and this often displays as restricting leg white instead.

Frame likes white to be on the barrel of the horse, and the neck and face. White caused by frame tends to move horizontally along the horse, and usually won't cross the spine. Face white caused by frame tends to be top heavy, and likes to spread above the eyes. Frame can cause blue eyes. It causes white with jagged edges, but not with roaned edges, and not halos either.

This horse is displaying frame as you would expect to see it without much interference from other white patterns.










Breeds that Carry Frame
Possible- Based on phenotype

American Saddlebred
American Warmblood
Australian Draught Horse
Australian Stock Horse
Azteca
Campolina
Criollo
Curly
Falabella
Gelderland
Missouri Fox Trotter
Morgan
National Show Horse
Quarter pony

Known Breeds- based on phenotype and testing

American Paint Horse
American Quarter Horse
American Indian Horse
American Shetland Pony
Miniature Horse
Mustang
Nokota
Spanish Mustang
Spotted Kentucky Mountain Saddle Horse
Spotted Saddle horse
Tennessee Walking Horse
Thoroughbred


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks,Chiilaa,very informative!


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## Chiilaa (Aug 12, 2010)

countryryder said:


> Thanks,Chiilaa,very informative!


Glad to help *bows*


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## countryryder (Jan 27, 2012)

So,from your description,Chiilaa,this mare probably carries frame?


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## NdAppy (Apr 8, 2009)

Without a doubt that mare carries frame.


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