# What color is Tobie technically



## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Papers list Dam as Chestnut. Little Miss Lois Lane
Sire Bonnie Novel Hawkeye Chestnut and white Pinto

I would imagine chestnut LOL but is he specific color pattern?


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Nnnooo, that is not chestnut....brown, maybe. Possibly dark bay. But not chestnut! He is Tobiano, though.

I had no idea that Standardbreds came in Tobiano! Learn something new everyday!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

He looks bay to me but two chestnut parents can't produce a bay. Hmmm


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

greentree said:


> Nnnooo, that is not chestnut.. *ROFL I know he isn't chestnut*..brown, maybe. Possibly dark bay. But not chestnut! He is Tobiano, though.
> 
> *I guess I will eventually have him tested, but with both parents being classed chestnut on the paperwork...... Logical choice would be...have him tested LOL*
> 
> ...


Lord only knows what he will actually wind up being. He is my first Standardbred. I have had TWH's and a Saddlebred, QH's. TB's but never this LOL.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

LoriF said:


> He looks bay to me but two chestnut parents can't produce a bay. Hmmm



I have copies of both parents papers and the breeders certificate..... but he was not registered. I am thinking of doing it. Seeing as how both parents are listed as chestnut I am thinking DNA is a good thing in his case.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

> Tobie is 4. He is a Standardbred. He is 16+ hh of NO manners. He was bottle raised. He kicks. He bites. He runs all over you. He will knock you, shove you, clamp down and attempt to hold you, and move you with his head.


^^^THIS is the horse you reference in your other thread ^^^^?!?!

He certainly doesn't look like your description:apple::riding::rofl::rofl:

I agree that is not any hue of chestnut. I would call it a dark bay or black bleached out from the summer.

I too, am dumbfounded at a paint standardbred!

However, I think he is really pretty! His markings are beautiful. Hang in there with the "ornery cuss" (that's what I call Rusty he will come around


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

walkinthewalk said:


> ^^^THIS is the horse you reference in your other thread ^^^^?!?!
> 
> He certainly doesn't look like your description:apple::riding::rofl::rofl:
> 
> ...


As Greentree pointed out I WAS WRONG ROFL He is a SADDLEBRED I never checked his papers. She said Standardbred and I went with it ****


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

walkinthewalk said:


> ^^^THIS is the horse you reference in your other thread ^^^^?!?!
> 
> He certainly doesn't look like your description:apple::riding::rofl::rofl:
> *
> ...


If there is one thing I have been taught about the horse world. ALWAYS double check what you are told. ALWAYS!!!! And pay attention when you check it.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

His pattern is mostly tobiano but there are other influences as well. For registration and identification, he would simply be listed as tobiano. But he also has other genetics at play as well, sabino to give the sharp hind stockings, splash to run high on the front legs as well as reducing the size of the chest shield that tobiano wants to leave dark, and by the odd cutout of white on the withers and the blaze stretching horizontally towards the top of his eyes it would appear that he may also have frame.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Rascaholic said:


> As Greentree pointed out I WAS WRONG ROFL He is a SADDLEBRED I never checked his papers. She said Standardbred and I went with it ****


No wonder he is so handsome. --- I love Saddlebreds


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

SunnyDraco said:


> His pattern is mostly tobiano but there are other influences as well. For registration and identification, he would simply be listed as tobiano. But he also has other genetics at play as well, sabino to give the sharp hind stockings, splash to run high on the front legs as well as reducing the size of the chest shield that tobiano wants to leave dark, and by the odd cutout of white on the withers and the blaze stretching horizontally towards the top of his eyes it would appear that he may also have frame.


 @SunnyDraco
That patch on his side is roan, and he has another smaller patch on the other side..... The sabino would account for the roaning he has going on?
He's an odd colored fella, my Tobie.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

walkinthewalk said:


> No wonder he is so handsome. --- I love Saddlebreds


Me too, Walkin. I can't wait to ride him!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Rascaholic said:


> @SunnyDraco
> That patch on his side is roan, and he has another smaller patch on the other side..... The sabino would account for the roaning he has going on?
> He's an odd colored fella, my Tobie.


What patches are you referring to? He has almost turtleneck sweater from his throat latch to mid barrel with a small patch randomly on his back. The turtleneck is classic tobiano but tobiano loves crossing the withers, frame absolutely hates it and may have caused that sudden cutout around the withers. Sabino is messy, gives messy edges to the white, causing roaning and loves higher white on the hind legs which have the classic sabino trademark of a sharp higher point to the hind stockings. Splash loves higher white on the front legs and smooth clean edges.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

SunnyDraco said:


> What patches are you referring to? He has almost turtleneck sweater from his throat latch to mid barrel with a small patch randomly on his back. The turtleneck is classic tobiano but tobiano loves crossing the withers, frame absolutely hates it and may have caused that sudden cutout around the withers. Sabino is messy, gives messy edges to the white, causing roaning and loves higher white on the hind legs which have the classic sabino trademark of a sharp higher point to the hind stockings. Splash loves higher white on the front legs and smooth clean edges.


I will try to get better pictures today. 
He has a roan spot in the ?brown/bay? coloring on his barrel. He has messy edges on some of the dark markings. He has another roan spot on the opposite side. It's smaller but distinct. 
The big roan spot is right behind the dirt on his white. Excuse his mess btw.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Rascaholic said:


> I will try to get better pictures today.
> He has a roan spot in the ?brown/bay? coloring on his barrel. He has messy edges on some of the dark markings. He has another roan spot on the opposite side. It's smaller but distinct.
> The big roan spot is right behind the dirt on his white. Excuse his mess btw.


Yes, the messy white roaning is from sabino which is having a bit of fun. Just one of the multiple overo genes that is doing small expressions of their personality on and around the loud tobiano pattern


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

If both parents are chestnut, and he's a brown (what he looks like to me anyway), wouldn't the parentage be incorrect?


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Avna said:


> If both parents are chestnut, and he's a brown (what he looks like to me anyway), wouldn't the parentage be incorrect?


This. Methinks daddy isn't who the breeder thought it was. Or someone was registered incorrectly. He's most definitely brown.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

Avna said:


> If both parents are chestnut, and he's a brown (what he looks like to me anyway), wouldn't the parentage be incorrect?


 This was the very reason I posed the question. Mom and Dad both were late 90's registration. Could their color be incorrect? Could someone have just had an oops moment? Possibly, as I haven't seen either parent. Nor do I know diddly about color and how genetics determine it. 
There is DNA on file for Mom, according to her papers. I have an inquiry in for Dad. Tobie is eligible for registration with the paperwork I have. But. if it is not correct. I can't/won't register him.
I have questions about his lineage. Clearing it up is for my own personal benefit. I plan on Tobie being with me til we are both old, gray, and sleep peaceful one last time, but life has a way of laughing at the best laid plans.

In the everyday scheme of things, I could care less about his papers. He is now gelded so no reproduction issues in the future. But I'd like to know if either line is carrying a genetic defect I need to be aware of. As Tobie sired one colt, before being gelded, the owner of that offspring might like to have the information for registration. If he is carrying the frame gene, which was suggested, doesn't this play into the LWO genetics. I don't breed so I haven't a clue how genetic testing is handled.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> This. Methinks daddy isn't who the breeder thought it was. Or someone was registered incorrectly. He's most definitely brown.


Exactly!


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

The only time LWO is an issue is when it's in it's homozygous form. You would have known if the colt was LWO because it would have died (rather painfully) within 72 hours of birth. As Tobie is no longer a stallion, it doesn't really matter any more. Unless the colt is ungelded?


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Unless the colt is ungelded?


I don't know. I do know he wasn't gelded when he left their property. He was given away by the person who bred the mare to Tobie. I have a few feelers out to see if I can find him. I know Tobies previous owner would rest better knowing he is in good circumstances.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Rascaholic said:


> I don't know. I do know he wasn't gelded when he left their property. He was given away by the person who bred the mare to Tobie. I have a few feelers out to see if I can find him. I know Tobies previous owner would rest better knowing he is in good circumstances.


I think Drafty was referring to the foal he sired. If Tobie is gelded now, whether or not he carries frame will not effect anything. The only danger frame presents is if both parents are carriers, there is a 1 in 4 chance of a lethal white (homozygous frame) foal that is born nearly all white and cannot poop (no amount of vet care or surgery can save the foal) as they will die painfully within 72 hours of birth unless humanely euthanized.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

SunnyDraco said:


> I think Drafty was referring to the foal he sired. *Gotcha*If Tobie is gelded now, whether or not he carries frame will not effect anything. *I know.*The only danger frame presents is if both parents are carriers, there is a 1 in 4 chance of a lethal white (homozygous frame) foal that is born nearly all white and cannot poop (no amount of vet care or surgery can save the foal) as they will die painfully within 72 hours of birth unless humanely euthanized.


 This is why I wonder about the genetics. I don't know if the colt was gelded after he was given away. Silly to worry about it I guess, as he isn't mine. 
I know Tobie is fine, even if he carries frame. For me it's just another bit of info in determining if the papered parents are his parents. Every clue helps in figuring this out. 

Papers don't mean much since we aren't showing, but I'd still like knowing as much as I can about where his blood came from.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Rascaholic said:


> This is why I wonder about the genetics. I don't know if the colt was gelded after he was given away. Silly to worry about it I guess, as he isn't mine.
> I know Tobie is fine, even if he carries frame. For me it's just another bit of info in determining if the papered parents are his parents. Every clue helps in figuring this out.
> 
> Papers don't mean much since we aren't showing, but I'd still like knowing as much as I can about where his blood came from.


Papers also help prove a horse's breed and age which helps as a selling point if at any point down the road of life he goes on the market looking for a buyer. There is value in registration papers on a gelding even if you never show at a level that requires registration.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Far as chestnut, versus sorrel, many registries have done away with that differentiation, between chestnut, brown and sorrel, as they all are variations of the red gene
I would call him a chestnut, approaching liver, but for registration purposes, simply as chestnut, with classification of his coat pattern

To me, he does not look like a bay, but just a dark expression of chestnut


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Far as chestnut, versus sorrel, many registries have done away with that differentiation, between *chestnut, brown and sorrel*, as they all are variations of the red gene
> I would call him a chestnut, approaching liver, but for registration purposes, simply as chestnut, with classification of his coat pattern
> 
> To me, he does not look like a bay, but just a dark expression of chestnut


Not true. Brown is NOT a variation of the red gene. It is a variation of the _agouti_ gene, which modifies black into bay/brown/wild bay. 

The cinnamon muzzle that Tobie is sporting is a hallmark of brown, as is his dark, nearly black coat.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> This. Methinks daddy isn't who the breeder thought it was. Or someone was registered incorrectly. He's most definitely brown.


Brown or chestnut-same genetics, and just different words used


Basic coat colors[edit]


Genetically, all horses start out as either chestnut, called "red" by geneticists, represented by the absence of the extension gene ("e"); or black based on the presence of the extension gene ("E"). Therefore, red ("ee") and black ("EE" or "Ee") are the two base colors.[1][2] The Bay color is expressed when a common genetic modifier, the Agouti gene, works on black. The vast range of all other coat colors are created by additional genes' action upon one of these three coat colors.

Statistically, the most commonly seen horse color phenotypes are identified by the following terms:

Bay: Body color ranges from a light reddish-brown to very dark brown with "black points". (Points refer to the mane, tail, and lower legs.) The main color variations are:
Dark bay: very dark red or brown hair, difficult to distinguish from seal brown. Sometimes also called "black bay", "mahogany bay", or "brown".
Blood bay: bright red hair; often considered simply "bay".
Brown: The word "brown" is used by some breed registries to describe dark bays. There is a distinct allele that darkens a bay coat to seal brown (At), but it is not the cause of all forms of dark bay. Informally, "brown" is applied to many distinct coat colors. Most often, horses described by casual observers as "brown" are actually bay or chestnut. In the absence of DNA testing, chestnut and bay can be distinguished from each other by looking at the mane, tail and legs for the presence of black points.
Chestnut: A reddish body color with no black. Mane and tail are the same shade or lighter than the body coat. The main color variations are:
Liver chestnut: very dark brown coat. Sometimes a liver chestnut is also simply called "brown".
Sorrel: Reddish-tan to red coat, about the color of a new penny. The most common shade of chestnut.
Blond or light chestnut: seldom-used term for lighter tan coat with pale mane and tail.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> Not true. Brown is NOT a variation of the red gene. It is a variation of the _agouti_ gene, which modifies black into bay/brown/wild bay.
> 
> The cinnamon muzzle that Tobie is sporting is a hallmark of brown, as is his dark, nearly black coat.


Nope, not on visual inspection alone, as brown is used to describe a shade of sorrel horses. See link below, or as pasted here

'
Brown: The word "brown" is used by some breed registries to describe dark bays. There is a distinct allele that darkens a bay coat to seal brown (At), but it is not the cause of all forms of dark bay. Informally, "brown" is applied to many distinct coat colors. Most often, horses described by casual observers as "brown" are actually bay or chestnut. In the absence of DNA testing, chestnut and bay can be distinguished from each other by looking at the mane, tail and legs for the presence of black points.
Chestnut: A reddish body color with no black. Mane and tail are the same shade or lighter than the body coat. The main color variations are:
Liver chestnut: very dark brown coat. Sometimes a liver chestnut is also simply called "brown".


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This is Smilie's oldest full sister, a light version of chestnut, with flaxen mane and tail



This is Smilie with a medium expression of Chestnut, which she shares with another full sister.


This is a third full sister, who is liver chestnut


I owned both parents, and both are definitely chestnut
Without genetic testing, no way would I declare that horse to be a 'brown' with modification on the black gene!
|brown' is not an actuation coat color description, as it is used both as a description of a shade of chestnut, and the black gene , with modifiers working on it


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

His dark coat is liver chestnut, and he has no black points


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

I have never before heard of chestnut being called brown. Brown has always been it's own separate modifier that effects black-based horses similarly to bay/agouti. Brown is often called "seal brown," but it's just a descriptor, much like liver chestnut versus chestnut. 

brown horses
The Enigmatic Brown Horse | Color Genetics
Seal Bay or Brown Horse Coat Color Modifier | The Equinest

^^ Every single one of those links describes brown as a variation of agouti. The ONLY one that doesn't is Wikipedia which isn't a widely accepted reference due to the fact that anyone can change it (try writing a high school or college paper and using Wikipedia as a reference...you'll automatically get an F).


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

well, here you go

Chestnut mimics[edit]

Bay horses have a red body but black "points"
Bay horses also have reddish coats, but they have a black mane, tail, legs and other "points". The presence of true black points, even if obscured by white markings, means that a horse is not chestnut.
Seal brown or dark bay horses are not chestnut but may be confused with a liver chestnut. Those unfamiliar with horse coat color terminology often call most horses "brown". including chestnuts. Brown, which may be difficult to distinguish visually from dark bay, is always accompanied by black points. Liver chestnuts, in particular, are mistakenly called brown or "seal brown".

Has this horse been genetically tested?
No.
Thus, deciding he is genetically brown, even using your criteria, does not exclude incorrect visual observations!
The point is, looking at him, you cannot decide he is 'brown' as per genetic criteria you gave, but can be incorrectly missed that he is actually a liver chestnut, often referred to as brown, just looking at the horse
I am not arguing actual genetics-give me genetic proof that he is abrown, as defined by color genetics, as otherwise, just looking at him, knowing his supposed parentage, I would call him aliver chestnut, until proven otherwise



Chestnut mimics[edit]



Bay horses have a red body but black "points"
Bay horses also have reddish coats, but they have a black mane, tail, legs and other "points". The presence of true black points, even if obscured by white markings, means that a horse is not chestnut.
Seal brown or dark bay horses are not chestnut but may be confused with a liver chestnut. Those unfamiliar with horse coat color terminology often call most horses "brown". including chestnuts. Brown, which may be difficult to distinguish visually from dark bay, is always accompanied by black points. Liver chestnuts, in particular, are mistakenly called brown or "seal brown".


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The horse in question, has no black points. He has two chestnut parents
Thus, until genetics prove otherwise, To me he is a liver chestnut, which is often confused with a true brown, as per genetics


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

All I am trying to say, as is that Wikipedia link, as it gives the genetics of a true brown horse, which are , as drafty states, is that the liver chestnut can be confused with brown, going by visual appearance only, and are thus often called brown incorrectly
Thus, to me, before I would question parentage, I would consider that horse to be liver chestnut, unless proven otherwise, by genetics, and not just visual deduction, stated to be brown, as per genetics, thus not possible with parentage given


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

by your definition my "brown" arabian is a chestnut.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

OP can you post better pics of tobi? if his mane and tail have true black he may be brown. i would pull hair and have him genetically tested.


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## Prairie (May 13, 2016)

The last I heard, no lab is testing for brown currently----has that changed?


The phenotype of horses can be very confusing......we have a liver chestnut mare that everybody swears is bay. Her DNA test came back as ee and both her parents are chestnuts! Most people claim our mini gelding is black......he has very dark brown shading along his flanks but not the mealy shading on the muzzle that most seal browns do although his inner ear hair is light brown--I want to get him tested for brown just for fun.


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Prairie said:


> Most people claim our mini gelding is black......he has very dark brown shading along his flanks but not the mealy shading on the muzzle that most seal browns do although his inner ear hair is light brown--I want to get him tested for brown just for fun.


Test for agouti. If there is agouti present, then he is bay/brown. No agouti, he is black. 

All the brown test was doing was trying to identify the agouti mutation (there are 3 mutations of agouti) but the test was pulled because it was faulty (sometimes testing non agouti horses as being homozygous agouti in the brown test and other such nonsense)

While you cannot test for the brown agouti mutation, you can test for agouti in general which is accurate and will tell you whether or not the mini is black or bay/brown


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

I will get better pictures this weekend. He isn't wanting to stand for pictures with all the smoke. He will evnetually be tested, not just for color, but genetic problems as well. Eventually mind you.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Smilie said:


> *The horse in question, has no black points*. He has two chestnut parents
> Thus, until genetics prove otherwise, To me he is a liver chestnut, which is often confused with a true brown, as per genetics


Because they are covered by white. :icon_rolleyes: Doesn't mean they aren't there, just means we can't see them (they got covered by white paint). Additionally, if the horse's base coat is dark enough, the black points that would be very prominent on a bay horse's face can be camouflaged. Hopefully the OP can get us pics in better lighting.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Without genetic testing, there is no way you can definitely say that horse is brown, thus assume that the sire and dam are not correct
I wish I had a better picture of Shameless, then the one crossing they river
Would challenge you, by looking at her, to be able to say she was a liver chestnut, versus brown
I darn well know that my breedings are accurate


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> by your definition my "brown" arabian is a chestnut.


 Not at all, esp with her dark mane and tail and light muzzle, and esp since I assume both parents are not chestnut !
Look at the middle horse, top row in this link. Are you going to tell me that you could tell, from that picture alone, that he is liver chestnut, versus brown?

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourcei...espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Liver+chestnut+horse+++pics


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

some more

https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourcei...spv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=liver chestnut quarter horse

www.equusite.com/articles/basics/colors/colorsChestnut.shtml


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Smilie said:


> Without genetic testing, there is no way you can definitely say that horse is brown, thus assume that the sire and dam are not correct
> I wish I had a better picture of Shameless, then the one crossing they river
> Would challenge you, by looking at her, to be able to say she was a liver chestnut, versus brown
> I darn well know that my breedings are accurate


When the OP posts more pictures in better light it will be easier to see Tobie's colors. 

Registration papers don't always have the right color, and since Tobie isn't registered he also hasn't been proven to be the offspring of two registered chestnuts. We had a black and white pinto mare whose dam was registered as bay but the registered bay mare was DNA typed registered offspring of two blacks. So in that case, either one of those blacks weren't black (even though that was their registered color) or the bay offspring wasn't actually bay even though she wast registered as bay. 

As an interesting side note, the Arabian stallion Khartoon Klassic is genetically tested as EE AA. Yet he has a few purebred offspring who appear to be chestnut colored (no black mane/tail/legs) but they genetically test as bay as they should since their sire is essentially homozygous bay. 

Last week I saw pictures of a purebred registered arabian mare that was for sale, listed as bay but looked more like a blue black in her summer coat (shiny black with no noticeable bleaching). The seller had to post a winter picture of the mare to show that she wasn't black because she had only in the winter coat a mealy cinnamon colored muzzle and flank.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Have to add, it is completely possible to have the parents NOT the the color recorded on papers. 
Ex.
Troubles sire is Reg. bay roan. He is a very light chestnut with very loud sabino markings. So much so he looks roan, but they are spots of white, not white hairs. His foal picture is a dark liver chestnut with sabino. As he aged he lightened. 

Our Appaloosa mare was reg. chestnut. She is completely white with black spots now (leopard). The only way she matches her foal picture is a hind white sock that is still there- the skin is pink underneath, while her grey has black skin. 

Plus, 20 years ago people had some wacky names for Color. Some paint genes weren't even recognized. (Hence troubles sire stated "roan")


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

True, registries have been known to make mistakes, and thus many registries now require not just transported semen breedings needing both sire dam, and offspring DNAed, but all breedings
For instance, when I started to breed ApHC, only the stallion had to have DNA results filed, unless the breeding was by transported semen, or, a solid horse like Smilie, who also had to be inspected and lip tatooed, in order to be shown.
Older mares, then were grandfathered out, with younger mares needing to have DNA filed
With Appaloosas, also, since they change color/coat patterns, you are supposed to send papers in for update, when that happens, but I only had registration paper discription, checked against the horse, at National shows, where there is an inspector present, for that purpose


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

A couple more pictures finally. These are some of his transitions from dark to white and his white patch across the booty


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

UGH sideways again! Hopefully better full body shots in a little bit. In his tail and on 2 legs he has a little bit of black. Tail is definitely not dark brown but a true black streak.


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

I honestly think one of the parents just isn't registered under the correct colour. Perhaps the pinto coloured parent was registered young before shedding out and had a lot of white so it was difficult to tell true colour and the owner at that time thought he was a dark chestnut. Or just really didn't know horse colours at all. Or checked off the wrong box on the registration application. Or the person at the registry entered the information in wrong. I know there are dishonest people out there, but I think a simple registration mistake is probably more likely. Whatever the case is, he's super cute either way. Good luck with him!


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Rascaholic said:


> A couple more pictures finally. These are some of his transitions from dark to white and his white patch across the booty


For best color identifying pictures, you need the sun at its highest position in the sky and don't take pictures in the shade or shadow. These are low light pictures which darkens and yellows the color. The pinto pattern is fairly well established at this point and hasn't changed with additional pictures, but base color is still somewhat questionable.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

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SunnyDraco said:


> For best color identifying pictures, you need the sun at its highest position in the sky and don't take pictures in the shade or shadow. These are low light pictures which darkens and yellows the color. The pinto pattern is fairly well established at this point and hasn't changed with additional pictures, but base color is still somewhat questionable.


Perfect time for pictures now then... more soon


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

:faceshot: Tobie likes having his picture taken. Go figure. Better conformation shots will have to come when DH is home and can hold him still or the patience pole is set, whichever comes first.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

I took all these with my camera and not my phone if it makes a difference...


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

Aside from him being a handsome fella:

1. I would call that dark bay or brown for his papers.

2. However, I can see him being written down as dark chestnut (not to be confused with liver chestnut, which is what my Duke was.

Does Tobie have any silver in his tail or mane?


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## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

Bay/brown (only the first picture of the non phone pics shows color because you went back into the habit of having the sun on the wrong side again so you are looking at color in shadow instead of direct sunlight)

Either one of his parents was registered as the wrong color or one of them is not actually his parent. Happened to another forum member who bought a mare with a filly at her side and bred for another foal. Had all the paperwork to register the mare, the filly and the unborn foal. When they submitted the papers for registering all three at the same time (after the colt was born) they got the nasty surprise that the seller had not been honest. Only the mare was able to be registered (her parents were DNA matched) but both foals only matched to their dam, but not to either of the two sires that the seller owned and claimed were the sires. The seller also owned other stallions of other breeds, the real sire/s of the foals was one of the seller's other stallions which meant that the foals were not purebreds as they had been advertised as and sold as.


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## walkinthewalk (Jul 23, 2008)

SunnyDraco said:


> Bay/brown (only the first picture of the non phone pics shows color because you went back into the habit of having the sun on the wrong side again so you are looking at color in shadow instead of direct sunlight)
> 
> Either one of his parents was registered as the wrong color or one of them is not actually his parent. Happened to another forum member who bought a mare with a filly at her side and bred for another foal. Had all the paperwork to register the mare, the filly and the unborn foal. When they submitted the papers for registering all three at the same time (after the colt was born) they got the nasty surprise that the seller had not been honest. Only the mare was able to be registered (her parents were DNA matched) but both foals only matched to their dam, but not to either of the two sires that the seller owned and claimed were the sires. The seller also owned other stallions of other breeds, the real sire/s of the foals was one of the seller's other stallions which meant that the foals were not purebreds as they had been advertised as and sold as.


This ^^^^^ should not surprise anyone. This kind of stuff has been going on for as long as my retired self can remember. I would never send a mare to a barn with more than one breed of stallion on their property -- never.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, that is why in many breed registriesnow, DNA has to be on file for both the sire AND the dam.
ApHC, any breeding by transported semen, has to have the foal also DNAed, besides the parents, as the possibility for mistakes, on purpose or other wise, are huge, on both ends!
Not only can semen from the wrong stallion be shipped, but unscrupulous mare owners, could use that semen to breed more then one mare ,and even credit their own lesser quality stallion as being the sire
While pictures are great, and I admit many are more'educated', looking at pictures, to determine color, thus feel comfortable verifying or discrediting parentage,I'm kinda a science nerd, and thus used to rely on blood typing, which is not as accurate as DNA, and since we now have the latter, that is where I base my final conclusion on!
Afterall, we have seen examples here, where visual color was other then what those color genetics would suggest to produce, and color genetic expression, can also mutate, have unknown modifiers, work on them, same as any other gene
I do agree , that with the better pictures, he looks brown


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

Yup I agree with bay/brown. And boy is he handsome! 

He looks the same colour as my tobiano filly that I tested and is E/e A/a. Is his body sunbleached? He looks a lot lighter on his body than his head.


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## Rascaholic (Oct 4, 2010)

One may be a duplicate, but a couple more in full sun. @SunnyDraco sorry I took the others for a quick stab at a conformation critique @walkinthewalk He suits me brown or bay  My Mom said he is mahogany ROFL No silver that I have found.
@Smilie Dam has DNA on file and I am waiting on confirmation whether sire does. If there is nothing on file for the sire, it's going to take a bit to get him registered.
@FrostedLilly Thanks  I like him


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