# If you wanna run, lets run.



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

more times then not this is going to blow up in your face and create a monster. 

no helpful information from me. sorry. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

My gelding did this to me when I first got him.....strange now when I ride him he has a slow button and a slower button....:? But one day I got fed up and just sat there and let him run laps around the arena and EVERYTIME he wanted to slow down I made him pick up speed....he changed his mind pretty fast about picking up too much steam without me asking for it.....

This technique all depends on the temperament of the horse......if you do this you are just going to have to sit there and relax and act like its another day at the farm:wink: My horse is fairly laid back and always has been, he started doing the 'moving out' when I first got him.....the 'ok, you wanna run then do ya?' trick worked well with him.


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

It depends on the horse.

My old roping made would get really hot if I let her just blow out one day. It would take a couple days of wp work to get her back down


My crazy a$$ tb wouldn't calm down so one day I took him out to the wash let him run himself out and he was am angel afterwards. And occasionally on a trail I would let him run I'm the wash and he'd be awesome after that


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## Phly (Nov 14, 2012)

I agree that it depends on the horse. You'd be in the next county and still running on my gelding. My wife's gelding on the other hand would fall over dead before he got to town.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

I've found that it really depends on the horse. I've done this before with horses and it's worked like a charm- mostly because all they needed to do was get that **** and vinegar out of their systems. But some horses I wouldn't dare do that with. It really depends on her, because letting her haul off may not teach her that it's 'not fun anymore'- she may like it too much, lol. Some horses take it as a reward, some think it's a punishment, and if it's a reward you need to make sure that she does something to earn it. The first thing I would do is try to get to the root of why she wants to run- too much energy? Just a love for running? Evasion/ attempt to ignore you, if that makes sense?


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I'd introduce lateral work with lope breaks inbetween and lots of walking


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

She is naturally a hot horse, but when I try and just keep her in a slower lope, she gets all bunched up and doesnt move out at all and then she tries to buck or something silly. I've just tried to push her onto the bit and that hasnt helped. 

So, im thinking letting her blow off some pent up nerves and energy and maybe move out better at a lope so I can do something with her at the lope without her being awful to ride. 

We have been working mostly w/t for the past year... so no issues there.

I also find that the more I lope her at once, the more relaxed she gets but its a long process to get to that point.


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## soenjer55 (Dec 4, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> She is naturally a hot horse, but when I try and just keep her in a slower lope, she gets all bunched up and doesnt move out at all and then she tries to buck or something silly. I've just tried to push her onto the bit and that hasnt helped.
> 
> So, im thinking letting her blow off some pent up nerves and energy and maybe move out better at a lope so I can do something with her at the lope without her being awful to ride.
> 
> ...


In that case, I'd let her go and see what happens. As long as you're sure it won't be dangerous, I'd at least try it and see if that's what she needs. If she behaves well while you work her, you can do a light session of walk/trot, then, if she's really good and you feel that she's at a good place, take her out and let her gallop like she wants as a reward and see if that's a solution. Since she's only been doing walk/trot, she might just need that release while under saddle.
-edit- although I'd like to add that if she's a naturally hot horse, it might not be a good idea- she might just work herself up and sometimes that can actually set you back training-wise. You did say that she behaves better when she gets to go faster, though, so I still think it's worth a try at least.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I mean, Ive let her stretch out chasing some cows this Spring and last Fall, but shes good with cows, its just when I'm not around cows... lol.

I think it would be good to just let her run and learn HOW to stretch out (I've never open her up yet - Im scared crapless, she's fast and I've opened my dads TB up... so this mare is REALLY fast). When my snow goes away next week, I'll give it a shot I think. It might just do the trick for her.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't think letting her out full tilt is a good idea in this case. It was most effective on a badly spoiled horse and we had summer fallow for footing which is deep. Your mare has it in her head she should run and I think you need to figure out why. Perhaps something in her past. Is this an ex race horse? If so then letting her run is the last thing you want to do with her. When on the trail try to keep the connection between the bit and her feet. Get her hindquarters moving this way and that as your walk, stop, back up a few steps, forward at the trot, stop, back up, move her hindquarters.


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## LynnF (Jun 1, 2011)

Like others have said, it works great with some horses and not with others. I would try it, if she is already pent up and not responding great a run isn't going to hurt too much. Just make sure you have all day to ride because it might take a while for her to decide its no fun anymore!


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I started her myself, so I know everything about her.

I've done what you described, and when I try to lope, she's just bunched up like a spring.

She's fine W/T. Heres a video working barrels from today: 




Her stop is almost 100% body cues most of the time (takes a few practice stops to get it working) so she is not ignorant of MY position. 

Once I start to lope her, she bunches up like a spring that you've squeezed between your hands and its a disaster. So, thats why I think letting her go would be a good idea. I never just let her go though, sometimes she wants to trot before I've asked for it, or wants to lope before I've asked and I will take her down a notch and maybe even stop and back-up before carrying on.
So, if I decide to run her, it would be at my control that she'd get up to a gallop, not her choice.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

If she is taking off with you-- as soon as she started to get quicker id stop her and make her stand for a few seconds then walk her- every time she tried to take off with you id repeat... not run er- that teaches her that bolting is ok.


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## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

I can't tell you whether this is a good idea or not for you, but my mare is also among the ones that NEED to run before they'll settle.

I used to try to just make her walk, walk, and walk but that would just wind her up more and more, then I'd be left with this horse that's bolting off on me or jigging instead of walking (and wouldn't stop jigging).
I eventually switched tactics and started asking her to canter more and that turned out to be just the ticket.
Now that we've gotten ourselves straightened out, one little trot set and a gallop at the end is enough to keep Lacey's head with me for a 2-3 mile ride. She used to need at least 3 trot sets, a couple of long canters, and a gallop to be "present" over that same distance but somewhere along the line, she seems to have realized that sometimes walking is good too (probably because when she gets extra hot, I make her run up hills until she's begging to stop...haha).

On days that she seems likely to get hot, I DO use a pelham with two reins and ride on the snaffle but use the curb as a "back-up brake" if Lacey decides to ignore my initial stop cues with the snaffle. I just find that helps her respect my cues more while she's "up." I try to avoid using the curb whenever possible but having it has proved to be very useful on days when she just doesn't want to listen.
Along with that comes the usual disclaimer about bits not being band-aid fixes, etc. The curb is just to back up my other stop cues. Like a dressage whip enhances leg cues. Very similar thing.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

There is no bolting or runninf away with me. I can even lope her on loose rein sometimes. But its still a mess. And hard to ride on top of it all


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I let my guy run the nerves out, works wonders for him. As others have said, it's not for every horse and rider, you've got to be confident that you can ride the horse for as long as it takes and stop the horse whenever you need to, but not have to do so until the beast is tired enough to be ready to listen properly. IF that fits you two, go for it! If it doesn't help, well, then you know in the future that it's not a strategy that works for her, if it does help, it could be night and day difference in her ability to focus and relax. JMO.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I am comfortable enough to do this, we have done the same exercise with 3 and 4 year olds that are dead heads. I've also breezed horses beside another horse that is comfortable running to teach the horse how to run (not all of them know how undersaddle believe it or not!)

This mare hasnt done anything like that yet because she has always been forward enough until now with her lope.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

She needs to slow it down and do it right-- running will make it worse and develop a new problem. Id stop her in her tracks and work her. Running her creates a hot horse.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

QHriderKE said:


> There is no bolting or runninf away with me. I can even lope her on loose rein sometimes. But its still a mess. And hard to ride on top of it all


I got to thinking, I think you need to find a big field and just sit there, relax and give her the cue to lope, sit her relaxed, hands down and just roll with it.....I bet she will feel how relaxed you are and slowly relax too. I'm thinking its just a lack of running and she is probably unbalance and unsure of herself.....does she kind of speed up and slow down and then speed up again? 

I'd sit there and let her go until she feels a little more fluid and relaxed......then I'd stop and let her rest as soon as you feel her calm down.....but make it your idea to stop:wink: Don't forget to walk back to the barn:wink:


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## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I did end up having to do this with an old gelding I had. He had a habit of bolting as soon as I had one foot in the stirrup, so it was a mad hop into the saddle and then trying to get him slowed down and stopped was also fun. He just stopped thinking and only ran and all we did was fight getting him to try and slow down.
So I finally just gave up and let him run. I let him run until he decided to stop, and then I made him go for a few more circles so we ended up with him listening to me, and then I called it a day. By the end of the their day he realised that running wasn't such a good idea and within a month he went from a crazy bolter to doing a beautiful Western Pleasure jog. 

However, he wasn't a overly hot horse and he had some training issues made from people prior to me getting him so his mindset is different then your mares. I can't see much harm in trying it - what you're doing obviously isn't working so maybe this will.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

^^ Muppet, that could work. 
I have tried the relaxed thing and it worked with her trot. I know I tried it with her lope and it had mixed results. It would be worth going back to. I also know that really exaggerating following her mouth with my hands relaxes her a smidge. 

Her lope is all over the place. Its the most awful thing I've tried to ride lol. 

I think I will try what tou suggested a couple times since it isnt as dramatic (so to speak) as running her. And if the results are poo, running her is my last resort. 

Toto, we have been going slow for almost a year with a couple exceptions. Its time to put the big girl panties on and get to it.


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## tbcrazy (Sep 27, 2012)

When I've got a horse like that, I find some hills  anything around you that you could take the horse up and down?


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Letting a horse run to get it out of their system works with some horses, others, they just get hotter, Squiggy & Scotty sound a lot alike, he would run until his heart fell out of his chest. Perfect a small circle, a perfect circle, a flexed circle, try to keep her balanced between your reins and legs, no falling in to the inside, once she is, release the pressure, that is her reward, give her a break & pet her neck so she knows. The circle will control the speed and you will contol her position. Lope her again, once she gets all hot & high headed, back to that small perfect circle, all the balance is lateral in your hands & legs, no backwards pressure on the reins, sit deep in your saddle. I would start at the walk to perfect that circle, when it's perfect and she lowers her poll and brings her back muscles up to you, release the cues, let her walk out. When she does that perfectly, move to the jog, then the long trot then the lope. She sounds like a busy mare, I would give her obstacles in her training, like a bridge, a gate, wagon wheel trotting poles, L back throughs, then go back to working on the controlled lope. Another thing, if for some reason if she gets all frustrated, stop. Do a turn on the forehand, one step, stop, sit there, wait, then another, etc., it gets their minds off forward, and back to lateral and using the shoulders and hind end. The only time I would let her run full out is if you are chasing a cow or in a barrel race because I have feeling if you let her do it in her training, she will want to take the opportunity to do it whenever she feels you "might" let her. Sure you can stop her, but her mind will always be, "when can I run, when when?" instead of "Sure, I will do that relaxed, balanced lope because you asked". Hope this helps, works wonders for all the hot to trot horses I have worked with.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

Have you checked saddle fit, AND whether or not there is something wrong with that saddle, even if it fits well?

Broken tree, nails coming through fleece and leather, broken gullet?

Turn it upside down and press with all your weight leaning on hands, in every single area. Shutting your eyes may help here.

And could be you are using too long a girth, or coming too snug?

Chiro/massage would maybe help too.

But I would just wonder about saddle?


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

What bit are you using as horse will run into pain. Whenever I've encountered a problem with a horse I hear a German dressage coach's voice saying "go back to basics, always go back to basics." It's worked so far because each time we plug a little hole in the training that we missed.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Agree Saddlebag-this horse looks to me like she needs to go back and get soft in the face. Looks like she is constantly being hauled in the mouth to me.


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

I couldn't watch the video......will try and see it later today


Ok....was there a video??? If there was its gone now...????


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I alternate her between a snaffle and a jr cowhorse bit. (Snaffle for flatwork and such, jr cowhorse for chasig cows ect) she is soft in the face and gives to bit pressure with just a wiggle of my pinky... at a walk and a trot. Lope - all that goes out the window.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tbcrazy (Sep 27, 2012)

Palomine said:


> Have you checked saddle fit, AND whether or not there is something wrong with that saddle, even if it fits well?
> 
> Broken tree, nails coming through fleece and leather, broken gullet?
> 
> ...


Great point- the horse should always be checked for physical pain prior to increasing the workload to fix a problem. That being said, many horses struggle to find balance at the canter if not conditioned properly. Taking them up and down hills and mountains is great physical conditioning for improving flat work.


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## wausuaw (Apr 15, 2011)

I say too... Depends on horse. My first horse was a runner/bolter, I got fed up and more or less TRIED to run him into the dirt... Problem... He was like the energizer bunny. Didn't fix anything. BUT... What I did find out, was that if I gave him some "running time" every time we went out, he was much better behaved, quit trying to haul *** everywhere cause he knew he'd be allowed at some point. And by letting him go- I mean, I'd really just let go and let him have at it for a bit, then collect him up and carry on about our business.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

QHriderKE said:


> I started her myself, so I know everything about her.
> 
> I've done what you described, and when I try to lope, she's just bunched up like a spring.
> 
> ...





Muppetgirl said:


> I couldn't watch the video......will try and see it later today
> 
> 
> Ok....was there a video??? If there was its gone now...????


Heres the video..


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Toto - I was asking a valid question. The OP has posted many reasonable threads in the past, so I am not going to discredit her by getting snarky.

I have seen other videos of her schooling this horse, and she does not come off as being terribly inexperienced.

The horse doesn't bolt, that is not her issue - it seems the horse is disjointed and unbalanced during the lope, the only way to fix that is to let the horse lope and get her wits about her, if you micromanage a horse and never let it make mistakes it learns nothing. I think the OP has a genuine interest in getting the best out of her horse and I believe she's capable of doing so.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

QHriderKE said:


> I alternate her between a snaffle and a jr cowhorse bit. (Snaffle for flatwork and such, jr cowhorse for chasig cows ect) she is soft in the face and gives to bit pressure with just a wiggle of my pinky... at a walk and a trot. Lope - all that goes out the window.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Im not trying to argue with you but what i saw in the video it does not look like she backs up easily at all. It looks like you have to apply constant pressure on the reins and her head went flying up in the air-- it did not look smooth to me at all. 

Are you trying to teach her to slide stop or were you just stopping then backin?


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Muppetgirl said:


> Toto - I was asking a valid question. The OP has posted many reasonable threads in the past, so I am not going to discredit her by getting snarky.
> 
> I have seen other videos of her schooling this horse, and she does not come off as being terribly inexperienced.
> 
> The horse doesn't bolt, that is not her issue - it seems the horse is disjointed and unbalanced during the lope, the only way to fix that is to let the horse lope and get her wits about her, if you micromanage a horse and never let it make mistakes it learns nothing. I think the OP has a genuine interest in getting the best out of her horse and I believe she's capable of doing so.


I dont know where you get me being 'snarky'? You said you missed the video.. i retrieved it for you-- no rudeness at all. :wink:

Im not trying to be rude but in the video that i watched this horse does not have any smooth cues at all. It needs to start all over in my opinion. Not sure of the discipline but its not very sharp with its turning or stopping or backing. Horses ive trained to slide stop will put on the breaks at the feel of my legs kick forward-- not when i pull the reins. 

Again im not being rude at all.. this horse has an obvious training flaw its not just in the lope..


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

I have to agree with Toto there, Squiggy does not give smoothly to bit pressure, she succumbs to it and never looks like she seeks it out or reaches for it. However, Kylie is trying her best to learn techniques to remedy this as she lives in the middle of the prairies with no access to a coach so she comes here for us to help her as best we can. There is no doubt Kylie is capable, she is a good rider and horse handler, she just needs more exercises to get that feel and transfer it to her training to bring it up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

toto said:


> Im not trying to argue with you but what i saw in the video it does not look like she backs up easily at all. It looks like you have to apply constant pressure on the reins and her head went flying up in the air-- it did not look smooth to me at all.
> 
> Are you trying to teach her to slide stop or were you just stopping then backin?


The video link is not showing up at all attached to the OPs original post. I was advising without visual knowledge of the video - therefore I can only have good faith in the Ops description and so far she's been pretty forthcoming and honest.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

Muppetgirl said:


> The video link is not showing up at all attached to the OPs original post. I was advising without visual knowledge of the video - therefore I can only have good faith in the Ops description and so far she's been pretty forthcoming and honest.


Im not being rude or 'snarky' to the OP at all in any way. I promise. 

I am very honest myself- especially when it comes to horses.. ive always been that way. Why? Because people can get hurt or even killed- same goes for the horses! 

I feel like OP needs to do some sharpening when it comes to cues. I understand she doesnt have access to a trainer and comes here for advice --id rather have honest constructive criticism than be told its fine when its not.. Thatll getcha hurt- and thats what i would like to see avoided in this particular situation is all. Im not being a meanie head--promise.:wink:


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

toto said:


> Im not trying to argue with you but what i saw in the video it does not look like she backs up easily at all. It looks like you have to apply constant pressure on the reins and her head went flying up in the air-- it did not look smooth to me at all.
> 
> Are you trying to teach her to slide stop or were you just stopping then backin?


She does back easily. I'm not hauling on her mouth all the time. My reins are short barrel racing reins, so they are short. Doesnt mean I am always on her mouth though. Most of that video, I was hardly on her mouth at all unless she was backing up (I was also pushing her hip over some too), so she had to test me there a couple times and her head shot up. But, in the clip where she puts up the biggest stink, you will also see that I got her hip moved over and let her stand there for a moment and moved on. 

She is NOT an easy horse to ride. Out of all the horses I've rode and broke, she's the most challenging. I admit when I was starting her, she was WAY out of my comfort zone, but I had my dad there to tell me what to do (even though most of his training methods are crude and "old style cowboy"). And now, I have to push myself to ride to the level of training she needs.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

toto said:


> Are you trying to teach her to slide stop or were you just stopping then backin?


I dont want a reining horse. In case you havent noticed... 
Her controls may not be perfect, but I've rode horses with a LOT worse handles on them and they still lope without being half-retarded about it.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

If I tried to "run her out" with my mare, we would hit mexico before she needed a water stop. I have run her, many times, and the results are always an excited, prance-y horse.

I would ride her to a long, straight dirt road, fence line or big field. ask for a lope and circle if you need to slow her down, but keep her in a lope, never pulling both reins. and lope, lope, and lope some more. when she's tired, keep loping. when you feel like it, and she really wants to slow down, then ask her to slow down. Repeat the next day, and for as many days as necessary. It wont take long before she realizes a nice slow lope is much more energy efficient than jumping all over the place like a rubber ball.


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## toto (Mar 3, 2013)

QHriderKE said:


> I dont want a reining horse. In case you havent noticed...
> Her controls may not be perfect, but I've rode horses with a LOT worse handles on them and they still lope without being half-retarded about it.



I didnt say you did.. do i detect a bit of an attitude? :?

I asked because i was gonna give you some advise about sharpening your horse up-- not because im 'mean' you said youre having troubles controlling your horse at a lope and want to 'run it out' whitch is the more dead wrong thing to do on a horse that isnt up to par on basic cues. Your horse is obviously uncomfortable with either your ballance, saddle fit, or could have some other pain issues-- i just pointed out that she needs some cue sharpening.. 

Im not here to argue-- if thats what you want ill bow out..


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I have done that, just not in a big field. 

I think her issue is that she needs to
a) Stretch out a bit
b) learn that being a "bouncy ball" isnt very much fun. 

I will check out the field after school today and see if it is dry enough to just LOPE until she's tired. And then she can have a time out in the barn to dry off. LOL.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Really does depend on the horse - some horses just never get bored of running so by encouraging them to do it you are just training them that its OK to go off like a loonie.
If you do try it be prepared for it not to go to the plan you hope for


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## Roperchick (Feb 1, 2010)

How long have you had her loping under saddle?

The same TB I used used to let blow out also was really jittery when first trying to lope with a rider. He was so big and gangly it took him awhile to find his balance and cadence with weight on his back so he would get agitated when asked to.

If hat does sound the same as squiggy I would maybe recommend some lunging with side reins, to help her build confidence and to not drop her shoulder etc.

Just a thought if that is the situation


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Shes gonna be 5 this year and I've been working on it since she was 3
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

toto said:


> I didnt say you did.. do i detect a bit of an attitude? :?
> 
> I asked because i was gonna give you some advise about sharpening your horse up-- not because im 'mean' you said youre having troubles controlling your horse at a lope and want to 'run it out' whitch is the more dead wrong thing to do on a horse that isnt up to par on basic cues. Your horse is obviously uncomfortable with either your ballance, saddle fit, or could have some other pain issues-- i just pointed out that she needs some cue sharpening..
> 
> Im not here to argue-- if thats what you want ill bow out..


But for some reason you kept referring to a "slide stop". It was pretty clear to me that what she was doing had nothing to do with slide stop at all, so not sure where you got that one from. I would agree that perhaps this horse would benefit from learning to stop better, and/or perhaps the OP needs to use a cue to slow the horse at any gait. I sit really deep and relax and shush....some people hum....sounds weird, but it does work.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Today she was whoa-ing when I would say "eeeeeasy" when shed start to get ahead of herself (w/t).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

It takes a little time to make them totally "adjustable" speed wise, I think. You have to feel her "whoaaing" and add a little leg, then shush to slow.....if too slow add a little leg again until she gets it. Practice your transitions so that they are nice smooth ones and get control of her without having to yank on her mouth. try little half halts so she slows. (with the snaffle of course). I would suggest that if you get her understanding increasing and decreasing her speed at a w/t it will help her later. I also do agree with Waresbear that some it if may be a balance issue. How does she do on a lunge or in the roundpen?


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I say go for it. Some horses you can kinda get on them and make them listen but that's a lot of focus and hard to explain over the computer.

I don't think toto was being rude at all. I actually agree with them.

Good luck~


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I think a combination of loping for long periods on different terrain, transitions, half halts, and getting her OFF of my hand will work.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Does she try to lean on you? Mine used to, and then I had one trainer who told me that when he did that I was to "drop" him-like a hot potato. If there is no contact, they can't lean and learn to be on their own.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Well, its a combination of leaning and just being a turd. She will normally start out on my hand and after a few minutes of just walking/trotting around, stopping when she gets ahead of herself, backing up and changing direction, she will start to get the idea and mellow out and even do a nice slow jog that can be brought up to a more forward trot without much fuss.

At the end of our ride yesterday, I did the exercise above and when she would start to get carried away at a trot, I would just "heeey" and she'd be setting up to stop, and take her trot down a notch when I gave her a touch of leg after.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

Time and patience. Sounds like you may be on the right track to me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FlipFlopTipTop (Apr 10, 2013)

I just got onto this forum and starting eeading your thread but I do have some questions/input. 

Firstly, as said make sure her tack fits and her back is fine. Ill fitting tack can end up causing all sorts of issues. 

Also, how is she on the lunge line/ roundpen at a lope/canter? does she have proper balance? It might just be that shes not fully balanced for what your asking and thats why shes all over the place. My gelding has been off for a few years due to an SI injury. bringing him back into work is intersting as its completely different from when he went on pasture rest. If I were to ask for a canter now, he would be all over trying to balance himself out proper and it for sure wouldnt be comfy to ride. 

To me it just seems like she hasnt been loped/cantered much and she doesnt have those muscles built up to do it. It takes time but if you do it right you will have a nice balanced horse. 
As far as the run-it-out method, works for some and can be a huge mistake with others. My tb loved when we would do arena work at w/t/c and then head out on the long hill beside the barn and run a mile or so at a gallop. He would be pretty excited at first (but not out of control, I could always stop him anytime I wanted) After a minute or so he would calm right down and do a slower hand gallop. We would go a mile or so then trot for a minute or so then walk the rest of the way to cool out.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Another thought is that some green horses will just need to lope and lope and lope. Our greenies here get that. Lope around the rail, don't do much, just sit there and let em go. If you ahven't been loping her it's an idea that she just needs that.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

Actually I just watched this issue get resolved on a thoroughbred yesterday. He was feeling good and refused to cooperate. And on circles he just kept wanting to run... So we decided "Okay, you wanna run? Then let's run!" And while he ran we kept pushing him until he decided he didn't wanna run anymore and slowed to a trot.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

A slow lope is probably the most balanced one she can offer you. I'd do lots of transitions at that lope and just keep up with her. Don't make her go any faster because that won't just get her to "snap into place"

She's a green horse. That's more likely to get her to trip or not feel safe.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

"Well, its a combination of leaning and just being a turd." You are her teacher so you taught her to be a turd.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Saddlebag said:


> "Well, its a combination of leaning and just being a turd." You are her teacher so you taught her to be a turd.


Rememeber that horses are always trying to tell us something. Maybe her being a turd is her screaming "I'm not ready for this"


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## Muppetgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Saddlebag said:


> "Well, its a combination of leaning and just being a turd." You are her teacher so you taught her to be a turd.


Even the most well trained horse needs refreshers and reminding every now and again..........


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

^ Thank you Muppet.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Shes not a walk in the park as I have said before. If you arent on your guard she will try to get away with stuff because shes young, and its just her personality to see if she can get away with something and I am proud to say I havent let her get away with much.

I have rode green horses my whole life and the number one thing they like to do is test you and some get over that stage easier than others but im sure they have all tried it.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Muppetgirl said:


> Even the most well trained horse needs refreshers and reminding every now and again..........


Even my automatic rope horse will get lazy and drop her shoulder on the corner, not face up all the way, stand in the box wonky, fade left... all she needs is a tuning run where i take my time and make her do everything the way she was taught and we can carry on. horses are horses and you shouldnt expect them to be perfect all the time.


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## FlipFlopTipTop (Apr 10, 2013)

QHriderKE said:


> Shes not a walk in the park as I have said before. If you arent on your guard she will try to get away with stuff because shes young, and its just her personality to see if she can get away with something and I am proud to say I havent let her get away with much.
> 
> I have rode green horses my whole life and the number one thing they like to do is test you and some get over that stage easier than others but im sure they have all tried it.


I agree, My gelding was a nut when I first got him. He was six but had around six homes by the time I got him. We worked very hard and I trained him myself to jump a 4 foot course clear, could do 1st level dressage and some stuff that was more advanced, fun shows (doing barrels, wp, halter poles etc) but at the same time I could take him out on the trail alone or with others. Still even being that rideable he would test me. Hes always been like that with me. Meanwhile throw a child or teen on him and he would do anything for them and not try to pull a thing. If he knows you know your stuff and are more of an advanced rider he will test you.. Kinda like hes saying "common, lets see everything you know"


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Skyseternalangel said:


> A slow lope is probably the most balanced one she can offer you. I'd do lots of transitions at that lope and just keep up with her. Don't make her go any faster because that won't just get her to "snap into place"
> 
> She's a green horse. That's more likely to get her to trip or not feel safe.



The slower the lope I ask from her, the worse it gets. It takes more balance to go slow than it does to 
Go faster. Riding colts, I let them lope at whatever speed is natural to them and then refine it from there. 

Squiggy is more comfortable and feels more rhythmic at a faster lope. So, a lot of loping where she is comfortable will probably build her confidence in loping and help her hold different speeds at a lope


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> _*The slower the lope I ask from her, the worse it gets. *_It takes more balance to go slow than it does to
> Go faster.


That isn't what I said. Whatever she offers you at this stage may be all she can do in a balanced fashion. If she goes for you faster, great. If she wants to go slow, there may be a reason.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

She deffs doesnt want to go slow. Shes a forward horse and a half. But she is capable of slow jogs (almost wp style) so im sure a lot of work at the lope will get good results.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> She deffs doesnt want to go slow. Shes a forward horse and a half. But she is capable of slow jogs (almost wp style) so im sure a lot of work at the lope will get good results.


Yep as long as you work with what she gives you with transitions and figures, then she'll get better each time.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

What does she do to test you?


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## madeline97 (Jun 27, 2012)

My paint mare used to do this...what I would do is just circle her every time she got ahead of me, and then I'd stop her and let her think for a sec, that was always important. Our circles were pretty tight, so she would have to think about where she was putting her feet and all.

After a few sessions she learned that she had to listen to me no matter how much energy she had, and that I would let her move out once she settled. It's important that she listens to you at all times, not just when she feels like it. But yea, I know how you feel, we went through the "buck, run, bolt!!!" phase too


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Update: rode her English today in a smaller area. 
What I did: walked with small increments of trotting until her trot became consistent. And then did half halts and figure 8's and full stops and backing. Then, I would ask softly for a lope and just sat with my hands still and forgiving. I would let her lope a few strides on the circle and bring her back down to a trot and trot and do whatever is necessary to get her to trot calmly again. (Also asking her to drive with her hiney instead of plopping along) and ask for a lope on thr circle again, lope a few strides and back down to a trot. It seemed to help a lot! She didnt hollow out right away and actually used her back


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

I've skimmed through most of the posts. 

My thinking is: If she has a problem at the lope, then lope, lope, lope, and lope some more! If she doessn't have muscles developed yet for a slow lope, it may be uncomfortable for her. Or she may not understand. Or...... this may be how she is.

I had a horse named Scooter for one year, while my horse Beau healed from a big injury. Scooter was fantastic. He was so soft in the bridle and SO sensitive to any of your cues. He was constantly listening to what you wanted him to do next. Scooter only had 2 flaws 1) He was hard to catch. He didn't run away from you, but would just keep walking slightly away from you. 2) He did not know how to lope "normal". I rode him all summer long 4+ miles every single day, and every time I'd want him to lope resonably slow and relaxed, my butt was bouncing out of the seat, because he mostly just hopped. Running? Oh, he'd flatten out like a racehorse. But he would never figure out how to lope. Just never could. 

So..... I know it's possible for it to just simply be the horse. Which potentially may be the case here. 

With Squiggy, I'd just spend lots of time loping. Develop those muscles. Do lots of circles, and lots of serpentines, and lots of simply slow loping for a mile or more (when you get her in good enough shape). Eventually, you will relax. She will relax, and she should smooth out. 

I am 100% for breezing a horse. I feel like it gets the silly out and gets them more focused. Wouldn't hurt to try it. Just make sure you do so in the safe open area, where you could one-rein her down to a stop if the emergency arises. 

Red, it does him good to breeze. He would run himself dead though, if I let him. So he is a bit hot after I breeze him, but I can make him do a nice lope afterward. I've taught him that I'm in control of the speed. He basically western pleasure lope real nice, although he can do better on softness in the bridle (hence why he's going to a reining trainer in a few days, so I can learn better how to ask him too).


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Sorry, didn't read all the posts. Instead of ramping it up to an all out run, have you tried just bringing her up one gear and seeing if you two just aren't on the same page about the speed? If she's an all or nothing girl, I'd say pick a safe field or track and let fly. After she can't go another step, then just briefly work at the pace you want.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Sorry, didn't read all the posts. Instead of ramping it up to an all out run, have you tried just bringing her up one gear and seeing if you two just aren't on the same page about the speed? If she's an all or nothing girl, I'd say pick a safe field or track and let fly. After she can't go another step, then just briefly work at the pace you want.


Her best gait is a hand-gallop. Its the gait faster than a walk we are on the same page at all the time


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Maybe she does need those downward transitions.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Riding her in the smaller pen yesterday and asking for a lope when she has to learn to pick up he right lead and is forced to slow down. Maybe she just needs to lnow she can actually go slow


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## MissColors (Jul 17, 2011)

IM NOT SUGGESTING THIS BUT....

My gelding got like that with galloping and I let him go and directed him toward the side of a barn and it was scary. He quickly learned that stop meant stop. We didn't hit it. But he sat down and slid. 

It was really stupid of me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

There is no problem with stopping, I can get her rolling and sit and "whoaaa" and she starts to slow down and then the bit comes in and makes that a stop. 

I too have turned horses into a fence, but it was greenies that I was breaking that bolted or started bucking and I couldnt get a hold of their heads enough to stop them, so I just turned them into the roundpen fence.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Heres a little video from the other day.

The clips when her trot is really fast, I had my leg on her and was pushing her, but basically showing her she can trot faster without breaking into a lope (as you can see she REEEEALLY wanted to do). She was a little fired up that day as well, it was really windy and other horses were galavanting around like orangutans. *le sigh*

The loping clips are in chronological order. Notice how in the first one, she picks up the wrong lead? And then after that, it got progressively better? She's quick to catch on to some ideas, and not others.

April 15 - English - YouTube

I also talked to a few people who train horses this weekend, and they all had the same idea: at 4 and 5 years, horses brains tend to fall out of their ears, and they become a horse again when they are 6. LOL.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

She looks like a nice horse, trying so hard for you. I think what you're doing is right, just giving her time, staying quiet.

I would probably put in more walking, not trotting for very long, just getting the canter, and then coming back to the walk, to confirm she did the right thing.

I agree, I think she'll come around for you, and turn into a fine horse.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

I watched the videos you posted, given my computer is junk so the videos always look choppy, but this is what I noticed.
Like you said, she is a very forward thinking horse. She looks sensitive as well. Even when you ask her to stop, she stops but she is not _thinking_ stop. She seems to want to pull on you and I think part of that is a result of you subconsciously holding her in the stop some and not completely relaxing when she is stopped. If she steps out of it when you drop the reins on her neck and relax, just ask again and back her to where you stopped her originally, you don't have to make a big deal of it. I think she is sensitive to your body language and position. Relax, slow your thinking and your cueing. 

She acts stiff, not sore stiff, but nervous stiff. I am not much on doing a lot of flexing, but I would a lot more pivoting on the front and hind. Side passing at angle on the fence. Make her use her hind end, cross and step to stretch the hips. You will also feel where she is "bulging" out at. Then you can fix those pieces and see how she feels at the lope. I think if you fix those little things you feel at the walk and trot it will make a difference in helping her balance at the lope. I think the speed is compensation for lack of balance and confidence/nervousness.

In my opinion, I think fixing some minor things and giving her a job, a full time one(hopefully this summer you guys have a pile of cattle to work), will do more for her than breezing. Don't get me wrong, I am all for breezing(I love it), but I do not think she is quite yet far enough along to worry about it. I think a_ regular_ job where she has something to concentrate on, but some what low stress to start(like making a slow, long gather of cattle) and big/far enough where she has to learn to conserve her energy would be help her more in the long run.

I think your doing good, those types can be frustrating to ride


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

We are going to be doing branding round ups and roping for the next few weeks, so that will end up as her "job" with some w/t barrel practice where I can fit it in.

Also, I did some w/t barrel practice today with a lot of just walking and trotting around my big riding area and near then end, I asked for a lope in a smaller circle and kept my hands VERY low like I would on a 3 year old greenie and her head got lower and lower with each circle, so thats progress.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I looked at your video and I'm not just seeing a horse that wants to tank off at the lope but a horse that looks tense, anxious, resistant, uncomfortable all of the time. her ears are never pricked forward and she never looks willing, her mouths going all the time like she's not at all happy with the bit
You ride nicely, you sit well, your hands don't look heavy so I'd be wondering what all that was about
Have you had recent dental work on her to check for problems with her teeth, ulcers in her mouth, sometimes sore patches on the tongue?
Is her tack fitting OK - not pinching somewhere? Is her back OK?
Is there any chance she has stomach ulcers or encysted worms? Anything that makes a horse feel uncomfortable is going to make it resent being ridden
I'd be wanting answers to all of these things because until she learns to relax and enjoy working for you I think loping is the least of your worries


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> Heres a little video from the other day.
> 
> The clips when her trot is really fast, I had my leg on her and was pushing her, but basically showing her she can trot faster without breaking into a lope (as you can see she REEEEALLY wanted to do). She was a little fired up that day as well, it was really windy and other horses were galavanting around like orangutans. *le sigh*
> 
> ...


Hey Kylie! I watched the video and the first thing I noticed at 0:03 is that she pushes with her front end in the stop instead of pulling with her hindquarters. I noticed it because my mare does the same thing and I finally figured out that it's because she has gotten really good at driving forward with her HQ but hasn't had enough practice using them in the other direction. I think that both mares are really nice horses that are trying to do the right thing but are just a little out of balance in their physical habits. 

Re: galloping/breezing, I've found that a certain amount of that can be extremely valuable to do but the trick is not to overdo it thus relying upon fatigue to slow the horse down. That's how you get more speed tomorrow than you had today. Like many things we do with horses it's one of those things that can either be good if applied with good judgment OR make things worse.

This may sound like I'm parroting a line from several popular clinicians but one thing that has really helped us has been to do a LOT of one-rein stops. It took me the longest time to get onto that fact. Maybe because the big-names were preaching it I was resistant to the idea as it felt a little bit like drinking the kool-aid lol. 

It really does help though. I'd like to share an observation I had about the ORS (one-rein stop) that I never really heard the clinicians talk about but has opened up an entirely new understanding of the value of the maneuver for me. We all know that the ORS is useful for stopping a horse from bucking or running off, but the other day I noticed that when the horse gives its face laterally through its own thought process and decision (which is built up through conditioned response/practice) that this actually LIFTS THE WEIGHT OFF OF THE SHOULDER ON THAT SIDE. Watch sometime as she turns her head to bite at an itch, you'll see what I'm talking about! So in practicing the ORS at all the gaits until it becomes a habit she simultaneously learns to anticipate the stop AND to lighten the front end at the same time! Though she won't at first. At first she'll be on the forehand even more, but there is an other side if you can persist. You've got to practice it until she anticipates and prepares on her own. We get that going good left, we get it going good right, and finally we put 'em together and we've got collection, we've got vertical softness, we've got straightness, and our horse is listening! I FINALLY figured this out literally just the other day and I feel like I want to bang my head against the wall for taking so long to come around. 

I did a ride on Sunday with Ginger where we practiced the ORS until she got good at it, and I rode for 2 hours 38 minutes! That's how long it took to start happening for us, and I would say that it was worth doing for the end result we were able to achieve. At the start of the ride she was running off, and I let her to a certain degree but as the session progressed she gradually got more upright, more soft, and more looking to rate back to the rhythm of my body. I couldn't be more pleased with the result and I'm inclined to start shouting from the rooftops, as you can probably tell! :lol:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Not sure about that Ian - For one thing your horse was being pushed on to make it canter - and it looked pretty much willing and relaxed about it. After 2+ hours at that pace any horse is going to be so exhausted its going to comply just to get a break!!!
The OP's horse looks constantly stiff and tense.
When a horse really bolts - not just keen or forward going it locks its neck and jaw and goes into 'nobody home mode'


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

jaydee said:


> Not sure about that Ian - For one thing your horse was being pushed on to make it canter - and it looked pretty much willing and relaxed about it. After 2+ hours at that pace any horse is going to be so exhausted its going to comply just to get a break!!!
> The OP's horse looks constantly stiff and tense.
> When a horse really bolts - not just keen or forward going it locks its neck and jaw and goes into 'nobody home mode'


The galloping actually only lasted around 6 minutes and was just a warm-up. That's the thing about editing a 2 1/2 hour ride down to a 3-minute highlight. You don't see everything. :wink: I just showed that part because it looks AWESOME. The rest of the ride went basically like this: Go on a loose rein, ORS left. Go on a loose rein, ORS right. By letting her go on a loose rein I give her the opportunity to choose her own speed which communicates to me where her head is at, so that I know exactly what page we're both on. Much of the ride was at a walk and trot, but always on a loose rein once we had got the warm-up out of the way. This also has the benefit of giving her no reason to lock her neck and jaw as there's nothing to pull against. Notice the difference at the beginning of the ride when the reins were loose vs when there was contact in her way of going. Loose rein, she's traveling comfortably. Tight rein, her head is up and her back is hollow!

The part about the ORS that I'm talking about comes right at the exact moment where she puts the tiniest bit of slack toward my hand on her own. If you look very closely you can see the weight come off of that front leg just for the briefest of moments. If you separate the ORS into two phases it will illustrate what I'm talking about. In the first phase I'm pulling her head around to break down her momentum. She's not really giving yet as much as just being pulled around, which does indeed drive her front end down into the ground. It's only (in the second phase) when she puts slack toward my hand on her own that she lightens the front end, just the same as she would do when making a turn in the pasture. My idea is that when she begins to anticipate giving to the bit to find relief, that thing that happened last will start happening FIRST! If I'm able to be consistent in my release (which is something we're always working toward improving in our own responses) she'll begin to anticipate that same release and prepare herself to respond as soon as I take up contact and THAT'S what I'm so friggin' excited about! It really is a world of difference in the feeling of the reins and through the whole horse!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I wasn't criticizing what you were doing - you really can see the difference
What I'm not sure about is - does your horse try to take off with you because I wasn't getting that impression, even when your horse is doing something that you feel is wrong it still looks better than the OP's horse does all through
I agree that suppleing and flexion exercises really help a lot, they distract a horse from being negative or combative - eg - get it moving its feet and doing something you want it to do to take its brain away from doing something wrong


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Ian McDonald said:


> The part about the ORS that I'm talking about comes right at the exact moment where she puts the tiniest bit of slack toward my hand on her own. If you look very closely you can see the weight come off of that front leg just for the briefest of moments. If you separate the ORS into two phases it will illustrate what I'm talking about. In the first phase I'm pulling her head around to break down her momentum. She's not really giving yet as much as just being pulled around, which does indeed drive her front end down into the ground. It's only (in the second phase) when she puts slack toward my hand on her own that she lightens the front end, just the same as she would do when making a turn in the pasture. My idea is that when she begins to anticipate giving to the bit to find relief, that thing that happened last will start happening FIRST! If I'm able to be consistent in my release (which is something we're always working toward improving in our own responses) she'll begin to anticipate that same release and prepare herself to respond as soon as I take up contact and THAT'S what I'm so friggin' excited about! It really is a world of difference in the feeling of the reins and through the whole horse!


 
To add to this, when doing the ORS, the horse MUST step under himself to disengage the hips. That is really important to loosening up the whole horse. When the horse rocks back onto the hind, just after that step under, AND moves its' head back by its own volition, as Ian talks about, it will lighten the forehand. But, do not neglect that the horse step under itself and disengage the hind. IF it stops with its head bent to the side but leaning heavily on the rein, that is not changing a single thing about it's movement or its' attitude (GO! foreward, now!), it is just pausing it while you "hold" it there, it has given nothing.

When you start doing these ORSs, you do eventually want the horse to willingly follow the rein around, give its' head and step under and then either stand , or step its' front end around to complete the circle (another thread, perhaps?), Watch the horse's eye. You may bring his head around, but if he is still LOOKING the other way, then he is still THINKING the other way. He is unlikely to actually give to the rein of his own volition if he is still thinking the other way. If he is thinking the same direction as you are asking with teh rein, you will see his eye roll toward that direction.

If you can still see the white of his eye, then he is looking, and thus thinking, the opposite direction.


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## Fourteen (Jan 8, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I looked at your video and I'm not just seeing a horse that wants to tank off at the lope but a horse that looks tense, anxious, resistant, uncomfortable all of the time. her ears are never pricked forward and she never looks willing, her mouths going all the time like she's not at all happy with the bit
> You ride nicely, you sit well, your hands don't look heavy so I'd be wondering what all that was about
> Have you had recent dental work on her to check for problems with her teeth, ulcers in her mouth, sometimes sore patches on the tongue?
> Is her tack fitting OK - not pinching somewhere? Is her back OK?
> ...


My thoughts exactly. That horse is not happy...either at a trot or a lope. I don't think the problem is the lope, it's something else that's ****ing her off.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I have not seen the horse.. in person.. but I will suggest this.

MOST horses who are "all over the place" in a lope do not have good balance or the muscles to balance and keep it together. 

You can try running her out.. one time probably won't hurt if you have good footing and a safe place. I bet she will be just as bad 3 days after running her out as she was 3 days before you ran her out. 

The bit of video I did see she seems stiff and compelled not loose and easy. 

My first horse would pull.. and I was not so good a rider. Pulling is a run away.. not out of fear but out of wanting to get home. He was erratic doing this. 

One day I was about 4 miles from home and it was winter. The old boy decided to pull and ran for home. I was a MUCH better rider and could have stopped him but I knew what shape he was (not good condition) in and the footing was good so I let him go. When he realized his mistake and slowed, I gave him a boot. He went back to pulling.. but after a bit slowed again. I booted him again. finally a trot was all he had left. 

Then I turned him away from home and walked him for what seemed like hours to cool and dry him (winter coat). He never pulled again. 

I had another horse that if you did this with.. well.. it was 20 years ago.. but we would still be running if it were her. LOL I kind of get the feeling your horse is more like this than like my gelding. Like I said.. safe place and try it and if she is back to being all over the place two days later.. then don't do it again because it did not work and there is not point in abuse.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Fourteen said:


> My thoughts exactly. That horse is not happy...either at a trot or a lope. I don't think the problem is the lope, it's something else that's ****ing her off.



I've checked all of my tack, and had her checked over for soreness. Its all ok. The only thing I havent checked is her teeth. But I've rode her in a halter and it was all the same. Im convinced its mostly her attitude because some days shes almost perfect and others shes a disaster. If it was a health issue, it would be every ride, not at random.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

jaydee said:


> I wasn't criticizing what you were doing - you really can see the difference
> What I'm not sure about is - does your horse try to take off with you because I wasn't getting that impression, even when your horse is doing something that you feel is wrong it still looks better than the OP's horse does all through
> I agree that suppleing and flexion exercises really help a lot, they distract a horse from being negative or combative - eg - get it moving its feet and doing something you want it to do to take its brain away from doing something wrong


Not at all! I'm just attempting to present my point of view and answer any questions to the best of my ability.  You do bring up a very excellent point though. The very reason that she doesn't have the typical appearance of a horse running off with someone is that I'm doing very little to resist her desire to run! If I'm not making contact with the reins for a specific reason, I'm giving her -almost- complete freedom. I include that caveat "almost" for a good reason so that no one gets the wrong idea! I'm still guiding her just enough so that she doesn't dive into the circle on her shoulder unexpectedly, or run into a corner and jam up against the fence or try to jump out (I don't think she would, but some horses would!) or something. Otherwise, I'm "going with her" and letting her take me for a ride (within reason) for a little bit. The reason is twofold. One, it serves as a good physical and mental warm-up for her. Think of a time in life where you had a good warmup before a workout and how much better you were able to think, focus and perform! The second reason is actually the same as the first, but for me. Over the past year in particular I have grown to first recognize the need for, and then learn to REALLY appreciate the value of and even enjoy having the ability to ride a horse at speed and go with that movement without interfering with it. I believe that it is SO essential to your ability and confidence as a rider to be able to do it well and for these horses to have experience RUNNING with a rider on their back, because when they're running their self-preservation can be very close to the surface. They need to be exposed to it enough to build up the ability to handle it mentally. You were also on the right track in your observation that she was being pushed to canter, though the way that I'm thinking of it in that moment is that I'm "encouraging her to do what I can feel that she wants to do anyway". I'm not making her run, but I'm not doing anything to stop her either. 

If your question is, "When did she run away with you?", it was when she walked off without me asking her to and decided that she'd rather find her friends. I was originally planning to practice walking some nice circles around those cones you see there, but you adjust to fit the situation (again, within reason). ;]


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> To add to this, when doing the ORS, the horse MUST step under himself to disengage the hips. That is really important to loosening up the whole horse. When the horse rocks back onto the hind, just after that step under, AND moves its' head back by its own volition, as Ian talks about, it will lighten the forehand. But, do not neglect that the horse step under itself and disengage the hind. IF it stops with its head bent to the side but leaning heavily on the rein, that is not changing a single thing about it's movement or its' attitude (GO! foreward, now!), it is just pausing it while you "hold" it there, it has given nothing.
> 
> When you start doing these ORSs, you do eventually want the horse to willingly follow the rein around, give its' head and step under and then either stand , or step its' front end around to complete the circle (another thread, perhaps?), Watch the horse's eye. You may bring his head around, but if he is still LOOKING the other way, then he is still THINKING the other way. He is unlikely to actually give to the rein of his own volition if he is still thinking the other way. If he is thinking the same direction as you are asking with teh rein, you will see his eye roll toward that direction.
> 
> If you can still see the white of his eye, then he is looking, and thus thinking, the opposite direction.


Good call with mentioning the hind foot step under far enough to effect good disengagement of the HQ. Please allow me to add to your addition that once that part gets reliably good that you can begin some certain exercises to separate out each piece and work on it individually, so that when you put them all back together again you're ridin in style. Hands with no legs, legs with no hands. The hands can control the body by themselves and the legs can control the face by themselves. Eventually. So cool, though.


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

When you refer to ORS, do you mean the exercise just about every reiner trainer I have worked with uses, the pull to the side with one rein until they drop their head, then the other side, then the straight back and release pressure and back?


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

waresbear said:


> When you refer to ORS, do you mean the exercise just about every reiner trainer I have worked with uses, the pull to the side with one rein until they drop their head, then the other side, then the straight back and release pressure and back?


The same!


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## waresbear (Jun 18, 2011)

Yup, that is the way to start every young horse, and a good basic warm up as well. Principle I believe is give to one side, give to the other, then give both sides at once which is stop, back.


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## Ian McDonald (Aug 24, 2011)

waresbear said:


> Yup, that is the way to start every young horse, and a good basic warm up as well. Principle I believe is give to one side, give to the other, then give both sides at once which is stop, back.


Right. I call it "The Chris Cox Ride" but I probably shouldn't be 'officially' calling it that. Copyright and all that.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

*Ian* - I try to avoid warm ups and exercise these days as it hurts too much the next day!!!!!
I know what you mean though
The mare in my avatar is really mouth sensitive. also has a very short mouth which seems to encourage her to try to get her tongue over the bit AND is very forward going - if I give her an inch she'd like to take a mile so I have to ride her on a fairly short rein but a really light contact or it descends into a tug of war that I know I'd lose
I'm finding she goes better in a bitless bridle
*OP* - like your horse she also has good days and bad days and can be really wired and takes a lot of settling down when she's like that. I find that lots of walking and sitting trot, changing directions and size of the circles, spiraling circles, riding 'squares' & bending her in and out of cones takes her mind off being an idiot


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I think that a part of her ****y look is fron her wanting to go where she wants to go and at her speed. And the gets frustrated when Im asking her to go where im telling her at the speed I want her at. Why do I think this? Because when im done w/t practice on barrels and go to ride a few big circles around my whole riding area, she wants to turn every barrel she gets close to because that is just what we were working on, so she pins her ears, swishes her tail, has a little mare fit until she finds out i just want her to walk in a straight line. I guess its just her own little way of dealing with frustration/"I dun wanna" syndrome. 

As for the ors exercise, I do what Wares said almost every ride if I have time. It helps me determine what kind of day its gonna be lol. On a good day, she will give to both sides with no circling for one or two steps. On a bad day, she is distracted and circles several times before giving.


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## Nokotaheaven (Apr 11, 2012)

QHriderKE said:


> I think that a part of her ****y look is fron her wanting to go where she wants to go and at her speed. And the gets frustrated when Im asking her to go where im telling her at the speed I want her at. Why do I think this? Because when im done w/t practice on barrels and go to ride a few big circles around my whole riding area, she wants to turn every barrel she gets close to because that is just what we were working on, so she pins her ears, swishes her tail, has a little mare fit until she finds out i just want her to walk in a straight line. I guess its just her own little way of dealing with frustration/"I dun wanna" syndrome.
> 
> As for the ors exercise, I do what Wares said almost every ride if I have time. It helps me determine what kind of day its gonna be lol. On a good day, she will give to both sides with no circling for one or two steps. On a bad day, she is distracted and circles several times before giving.


Can you post a video of her doing a barrel pattern? On a bad day though lol.
And have you tried giving her a task that will stimulate her mentally? Like say maybe even something like doing figure 8's or serpentines and stopping briefly in the middle occasionally


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Disregard the sorrel mare. She was sore, and shuts down SUPER hard indoors and I didn't have the necessary tools to make her work for me. LOL

It was Squiggys first time indoors, and the first time on the pattern in a few months, so she did really well.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Alrighty, for those of you who still care, I did this awesome exercise yesterday:


Now, let me explain. LOL. We will start with the blue, staying on the pattern keeping straight lines, I did up and downward transtions (w/t) and stopped, backed, or turned around and then ended up on the green. It is an amazing sort of pattern! Holy CRAPOLY. I think I am going to use it with all of my horses. It helps them relax because of the straight lines and I love it.

Vid: English on Squiggy - April 25 - YouTube


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I have another update.
LOOK AT DAT HAPPY FAAAAAACE


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Horses like jobs that make the training/exercises in the arena make sense  
She looks happy and interested in what is going on  Nice!


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

She's a natural at roping and working cattle. I honestly hardly taught her anything. I was just fooling around tracking roping steers (heeling end) with her once at a roping practice and threw my rope and accidentally caught doubles and she just acted like she'd been at it a long time. I was slightly bewildered.

She's also much calmer around cattle... like, if I'm tracking a cow at a lope, she's watching the cow and doesnt have enough extra brain power to think about jacking around with her lope and being a turd. 

Shes awesome to work any kind of cattle with. Its just when you get away from the cattle that problems show up...


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Honestly, I think maybe you found her calling or at least something that could pacify her in between arena work.
If I had cattle like you guys do, and your folks don't mind, I would be doing as much outside work as possible. Maybe riding outside and tracking and moving cows around(at a walk) or doctoring calves outside. Maybe give her a break from the dry work for a while then come back to it or maybe incorporate more outside work in your weekly routine???


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I do a bit of that as we keep roping animals at our place year round and they are always nice to play with. Every now and then I will just go out and pick one critter out and play with it for a few minutes, I think my horses think its fun and kind of like a "funday friday" or something lol.


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## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

Cowchick has a point, dry work can get boring. Selena is the same way. If I do too much just plain work on my reining stuff or pattern classes she gets ****y, hot and stupid all around. Often times I have to get on the barrel pattern at least once or twice a week, trail ride, or find some cows if we're lucky enough and she stays calm as a saint.


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## Honeysuga (Sep 1, 2009)

I think you are doing great. I dont have much to add other than that in your pics your curb strap looks a little too loose. You have to pull your shanks way too far to achieve curb pressure while applying excessive poll pressure. Maybe it would be helpful if you tightened it a bit to even out the pressure and give you an advantage with your cues. Just a little advice. Keep up the good work, and keep learning! 

I know how it is to have no outside training available. I had to teach myself just like you are. I grew up with horsepeople who used "cowboy" methods that I disagreed with so I sought to learn as much as I could. It isnt easy and you will recieve a lot of criticism, but you will get there if you listen to your horse and never stop using your brain.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

Rode her again today - got the whole herd in, sorted and vaccinated cows.

The cows didnt want to come in so I ended up riding her pretty hard in order to get them in and she handled it alright, and was obviously fired up and hot about it, but I don't blame her. There was a lot of "instant take-offs" and "0-60" moments that were necessary. 

I also used her to sort and push cows up to the alleyway. She got a bit ancy to start, but got over at as it was really hot out and it was a few hour job. I think that she needs a lot of long hard days under her belt to get her to where I want her. Which is okay with me! 

When she got bored waiting and started fidgeting, I went to the slab fence and did rollbacks on it. HOLY CRAPOLIES IS SHE GOOD AT THEM. I even worked her up to loping into them and she didnt get hot! She actually mellowed out a bit and loped like a normal horse. Actually, I loped her in the corral quite a bit and it was super light and smooth and relaxed.

We are getting there...


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

She's finally slowed down and relaxed a bit more at a lope! I have a little bit of video evidence. At times, she still scrunches up, but its getting better!






Her lope now feels ride-able. Before, she'd be so un rhythmic that I'd feel like I'm bouncing around like a sack of potatoes.


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