# Thoughts on CA's patience pole?



## Sunny (Mar 26, 2010)

Subbing because I'm interested in this as well!
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## Poco1220 (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm sure there are good reasonings for it but I personally wouldn't use it. I like to end my sessions on a good note and praise which is also communicated through saying "you did well, now go back out and relax". I don't understand the concept of "you did great, now stand here in time out for two hours".
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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Haven't seen his "patience pole" but I do tie mine for a bit after a session to let things soak in. I don't leave them for hours though, maybe 20 minutes with just the cinch a bit loosened and then I untack & groom.


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## christabelle (Feb 13, 2011)

It is good for training, but hardly a new idea. I have more than one horse to ride, so I take them all out and tie them. They all wait until I've worked with them all. I know that it must have helped some. We had to evacuate for a fire, and the horses spent five days tied to a trailer (I walked them periodically). Mine were one of the few that weren't causing problems. I think standing tied is a very importaint lesson... Nomatter how you go about teaching it. I am not sure how it would cure a barnsour horse though.
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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I call it a "Thinking Post" and I don't usually do it after sessions because I let him graze as a reward. However, I use the thinking post often and if I do have a particularly bad attitude day I will use it. I think it humbles them.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Horsepeople always say that the short-term memory (or attention span, whatever you want to call it) is in the ballpark of three seconds, probably less. That's why corrections and rewards must be given instantaneously for the horse to make the connection between cause and effect. We laugh at and then scold the person who gets bucked off, chases her horse around for 10 minutes, then gives him a whoopin' to teach him not to buck again.

Yet now, if we tie horses up for a couple hours after riding, they'll mull the training session over in their heads, reflect on what went right and what went wrong, and plan on how to do better next time? :shock:


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## Northern (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm with Poco & bubba: the reward for doing well isn't to be tied to a pole, they don't connect being tied to anything in the past, so don't get humbled by it, & don't mull over the past session like a human child in the corner reflects (hopefully) upon his misdeeds.

I'd say that this practice is counter-productive: the horse works for the human, in order, very often, to get to the rewards that are meaningful to him: food/grazing, relaxation, freedom of movement, companionship with other horses, etc. 

One could do an experiment to see how his horse responds to the pole: is his willingness/try & desire to be with you affected positively, adversely, or negligibly?


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Horsepeople always say that the short-term memory (or attention span, whatever you want to call it) is in the ballpark of three seconds, probably less. That's why corrections and rewards must be given instantaneously for the horse to make the connection between cause and effect. We laugh at and then scold the person who gets bucked off, chases her horse around for 10 minutes, then gives him a whoopin' to teach him not to buck again.
> 
> Yet now, if we tie horses up for a couple hours after riding, they'll mull the training session over in their heads, reflect on what went right and what went wrong, and plan on how to do better next time? :shock:


 
I don't necessarily think that they actually reflect on things but they do get a chance to relax and aren't just tossed back out to pasture or put in a stall directly after. As to the earlier question, I think that is where the barn sour part comes into play with leaving one tied. Whether they do or don't mull things over, it is a good exercise in patience.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm not calling it a reward for the training session. It's my "I love you so super much and we had a great ride and now I'm going to clean stalls while you eat the good grass because you are so super cute and I love the smell of roses" reward after I ride. It's what I do. 

HOWEVER - I will pull him out of the field for no reason other then to tie him to that post on occassion....


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

I dont think horses can tell time, I imagine any benifits would be gained in 10 or 15 minutes,


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## MHFoundation Quarters (Feb 23, 2011)

Joe4d said:


> I dont think horses can tell time, I imagine any benifits would be gained in 10 or 15 minutes,


It does if they stand still & relaxed. If mine don't, they hang out until they do even if that means long enough I have to to tote a bucket & take them a drink.


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## iridehorses (Oct 22, 2007)

I use the concept to teach my horse that just because we're back home (after a training lesson or trail ride) that it's not a reward. I've found that it especially helps with a barn sour horse - getting back doesn't mean the saddle off and time to be back with her buddies. I'll tie her to the trailer for 10 - 20 min - never more then 1/2 hour.

Incidentally, I use my trailer as a thinking pole.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

MHFoundation Quarters said:


> It does if they stand still & relaxed. If mine don't, they hang out until they do even if that means long enough I have to to tote a bucket & take them a drink.


I was having a lot of problems with manners on the ground. Leading and standing still, pawing, etc. I started tying just long enough to clean stalls each day (about an hour) and then sometimes even longer and I think that time spent tied is VERY helpful. They really do learn patience so I very much agree....


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

iridehorses said:


> Incidentally, I use my trailer as a thinking pole.


I wasn't going to admit to it but... that's my thinking pole too...


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I have done this for many years. I tie them up many times that they are not even worked. I tie them up before and after they are worked.

We live on a busy US Highway. I will unsaddle a horse out in the arena next to the highway (farthest point away from the barn) and let it stand for a good while. I never finish riding and then take them directly to the barn to be unsaddled and turned out. It is just like the horse that is ridden out of the arena after a class and put away in its stalls. It rewards leaving the arena and makes them anxious to get out of the arena later -- sometimes to the extent that they prance and dance if they are the last horse to leave. These are all man-made problems. 

I, too, have had to tie horses up for days and they acted like it was just another day at the office -- which it was. Absolutely nothing bothers them. They are just as ready to leave the barn or the ranch as they are to come back.

I would say, if you have horses that are in a hurry to get to the barn or hesitate leaving it by themselves or hurry to the arena gate, they could really use this type of schooling.

The benefit is only gained if the horse is standing quietly with a hind leg cocked when you put it up. If that is 15 minutes, the benefit is fully reached. If it is not before 3 hours. then that is how long it sould take to reward him with turn-out


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Tying horses so they accept being tied is important. However as part of a post training regime it makes little sense and can cause more problems that it solves.

There is absolutely no evidence so suggest that tying horses has any impact of their ability to retain or reflect on anything they have been through, and personally I think that idea is absolute tosh. In actual fact I think it is more likely to hamper their retention due to several other factors.

Aside from that, after any significant training session the horse should be warming down, then cooling down. Tying reduces this possibility and increases the risk of injury.

If a horse is arena sour or acting up on finishing the session then you are doing something wrong. Deal with that rather than trying to mask the issue with tying.

I have seen several horses react to post training tying by developing quite severe food aggression as another example.

It's just another case of too much micromanagement as the only way to drill a horse into submission. Personally I really don't understand why CA even works with horses. He largely acts like someone who dislikes them at best.......


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## GoldSahara (May 4, 2010)

Very interesting replies :think: I think I agree that the concept of letting them think the training over is pretty ridiculous. The horse isn't sitting there thinking "Oh! So if I yield to the pressure, then it goes away" At most the horse is thinking "That grass looks good. Maybe I can stretch my neck and get it" 

I think I like it as more of a tool to create a buffer between the barn and the training. She could also learn to stand tied better. So how far away should she stand from the barn? I don't have a lot of property and until she learns to stand tied better, I should stay pretty close and keep an eye on her.

It is very promising to hear from those of you that have done this for a long while and now their horses can stand for hours. She could learn to have patience like that


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Good concept. I wonder if a lot of people are just "jealous fatties" because CA is making money and has had the foresight to name these items that we've all used at one time or another?Here are several reasons why I agree with him.
1) I used to tie up my horses after workouts bc the US Cavalry Manuel suggested at least one hour of rest after work before any water or food to prevent colic;
2) I wanted to have my horses dry before I let them roll in the dirt/mud;
3) It gave me enough time to groom multiple horses after their workouts;
4) My horses are fully relaxed after at least an hour;
5) Tying for at least one hour, and often more establishes that that is part of your horse's job, to be obedient, and to be ready to be used again, if you, the head broodmare/stallion wish it to be so;
and,
6) I never realized how many NH techniques I was using in my lesson program, until recently, where I am training in young horses, and this was one thing that I did daily (April-October) and weekly (October-April.) This was one reason that I had a string of horses that anybody could handle, anybody could ride, and anybody could load in a trailer.
Now, I sometimes tie my 3 horses up, at LEAST groom them, more often after I work them, then garden for an hour (across the fence from them) and ignore them. It has certainly made them quieter.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

Corporal said:


> Good concept. I wonder if a lot of people are just "jealous fatties" because CA is making money and has had the foresight to name these items that we've all used at one time or another?Here are several reasons why I agree with him.
> 1) I used to tie up my horses after workouts bc the US Cavalry Manuel suggested at least one hour of rest after work before any water or food to prevent colic;
> 2) I wanted to have my horses dry before I let them roll in the dirt/mud;
> 3) It gave me enough time to groom multiple horses after their workouts;
> ...


Corporal I'd love to know what a 'jealous fatty' is lol never heard that expression before!

In terms of the cavalry handbook that's maybe just a little out of date...... certainly you don't want hard feed straight after training, but normal grazing and natural movement after training is less likely to cause colic than standing tied and no grazing. (also likely to increase the risk of stomach ulcers too, which are becoming increasingly common, often undiagnosed and which not only threaten health but cause many behavioural and training problems too)


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

> However as part of a post training regime it makes little sense and can cause more problems that it solves.


If you have a safe place to tie one up (our pipe arena is very safe), I cannot imagine what problem it would cause. It cures a bunch of them and I have never seen it cause a single one.



> There is absolutely no evidence so suggest that tying horses has any impact of their ability to retain or reflect on anything they have been through, and personally I think that idea is absolute tosh. In actual fact I think it is more likely to hamper their retention due to several other factors.


I certainly never said a horse had time to think about previous training. I only want then to NOT WANT to hurry off to the barn or pasture after being ridden. This does that quite well.



> Aside from that, after any significant training session the horse should be warming down, then cooling down. Tying reduces this possibility and increases the risk of injury.


Tying a horse up DOES NOT increase the possibility of injury. Of course, horses should be walked out and cooled down before they are stopped and unsaddled. NOBODY said a puffing hot horse should be tied up and left for hours!



> If a horse is arena sour or acting up on finishing the session then you are doing something wrong. Deal with that rather than trying to mask the issue with tying.


I agree --- and one of those 'wrong things' is riding a horse out of the arena and going straight to the barn with him right after a show class or training session.



> I have seen several horses react to post training tying by developing quite severe food aggression as another example.


In all my years of doing this, I have never seen it change a horse's pasture or barn personality other than to quiet one and help one settle down and make one less fussy and anxious.



> It's just another case of too much micromanagement as the only way to drill a horse into submission. Personally I really don't understand why CA even works with horses. He largely acts like someone who dislikes them at best.......


I am afraid that my observations do not match yours. I do not look at it like 'drilling a horse into submission'. I tend to see it as teaching horse that being quiet and agreeable makes for a happier horse and a more pleasant relationship. The happiest horses I see are the horses that decided that their human leader is worthy and they have nothing to worry about. The spoiled ones remind me of the spoiled children you see throwing tantrums in a store. Have you ever seen a 'happy' spoiled child? I haven't. They are all like spoiled horses -- completely miserable. The well-mannered, relaxed and non-anxious horse is certainly a happier horse. 

As far as CA is concerned, I have been around Clinton Anderson many times. His horses are happy, healthy, well turned out and being obedient has not hurt them one tiny bit.

Next?


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Caution is never out of date. DH and I got our horses with the agreement that I would take care of them, he would contribute $ if money was low, AND that we would become CW Reenactors. That was 1985, we started our hobby 1 year later. We bought our herd, I opened a tiny riding academy, studied up and read like the dickens for the 10 years that I taught, and one book we bought/studied right off the bat WAS the Cavalry Manuel. _(BTW, I had an online edition bookmarked but Google is getting really weird about searching, and I can't find it for you, sorry.)_
There is a lot of good advice in that small book, and the wisdom was based on Europe's Cavalry manuals, and personal experiences from Cavalry Veterans of the Mexican War, prior to 1860. Even their saddle, the "McClellan," was named after General McClellan, who visited Europe and adapted a suitable saddle based on the Prussian version of such.
Our Cavalry were instructed to take the best care possible of their horses, whose needs came before the needs of the rider. Even knowing this there were campaigns where the men sometimes ate the horses or the mules, rather than starve. There are MANY stories of officers--they got the pick of the horses available--would weep when they lost a favorite horse, either through above, or because the horse was shot out from under them, and this was common since a horse is a bigger target.
I've only had 2 cases of colic in 26 years. Once Corporal and Toma got out and raided a grain can. The other time someone rode one of my horses and handed him back panting and sweating--didn't have the courtesty to walk him cool--and I spent 2 hours in the dark walking him. I don't want to have to do that again.
BTW, "Jealous Fatties" is a term my daugthers use. lol


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

Doe said:


> Corporal I'd love to know what a 'jealous fatty' is lol never heard that expression before!
> 
> In terms of the cavalry handbook that's maybe just a little out of date...... certainly you don't want hard feed straight after training, but normal grazing and natural movement after training is less likely to cause colic than standing tied and no grazing. (also likely to increase the risk of stomach ulcers too, which are becoming increasingly common, often undiagnosed and which not only threaten health but cause many behavioural and training problems too)


Not to mention that withholding water--as the Calvalry manual seems to suggest--can lead to issues like colic as well. It's perfectly safe to let a horse drink as much as he wants post-workout.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I also use this method, though I and my family have been using it for many years before CA stamped his little name on it. To me, it's not so much about letting them mull things over (whether horses do that or not is a secret they keep rather well), it's about teaching them to stand tied quietly until _I_ deem they are to be untied and turned loose. After a good workout and cooling down, my horses are taken to the barn, untacked, rinsed off, given a drink of water, and then tied for anywhere from 5 minutes to a couple of hours, depending on how quickly they cock a leg and stand relaxed or go to sleep.

I've been doing this all of my life and my Dad was doing it for decades before I was born. I've never seen it create a problem that wasn't already there, but I have seen it _correct_ a whole host of problems; pawing, pacing, calling for buddies, general sourness, pulling back, etc, etc.

I thoroughly believe that is exactly why I can take any of my horses anywhere and they will calmly stand tied for any amount of time, regardless of what's going on around them.


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## bubba13 (Jan 6, 2007)

You know, I've never done this, and mine will all stand quietly tied for hours, too...


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## LuvMyPerlinoQH (Jun 21, 2011)

Look at a roping horse they stand tied a pretty good bit of time and they are some of the best broke horses.


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## jmjackson712 (Nov 21, 2008)

Cherie said:


> If you have a safe place to tie one up (our pipe arena is very safe), I cannot imagine what problem it would cause. It cures a bunch of them and I have never seen it cause a single one.
> 
> I certainly never said a horse had time to think about previous training. I only want then to NOT WANT to hurry off to the barn or pasture after being ridden. This does that quite well.
> 
> ...


Thank you for responding to that post. I wanted to, but you put it nicely.


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## mom2pride (May 5, 2009)

Tying, whether done before, during or after a good workout is a good way of 1) teaching patience 2) letting lessons soak in 3) helping curb stall bound/pasture bound behaviors 

You can also simply pen the horse in a small paddock too, just so long as he isn't simply going back to the herd immediately after a workout. 

Horses get really really habitual really fast; so when all you do is take him out of pasture, tack up, ride, untack, turn back out...snotty herd/pasture bound behaviors start to crop up, often starting out as simple pawing here and there as you tack or untack, and eventually you have a horse who is a big pain to do anything with, because you have helped him 'guage' how long you should handle him, or have him away from the pasture. 

Change up his routine, and don't be afraid to tie your horse up for a good while, before, or after a ride, or even both. I will often catch my mare up, tie her, go do something else, go back to her, tack her up, do some groundwork, retie for a while, and then come back do a riding work out, cool her out a bit, and then tie her back up while I clean the run, or whatever odd jobs I need to do. I will then untack, brush her down, and we will take a walk down one of the roads so she can graze...I love handgrazing my horses, and after a good workout, and soaking session, is a good time to do so.


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## Doe (Jun 21, 2011)

> I am afraid that my observations do not match yours. I do not look at it like 'drilling a horse into submission'. I tend to see it as teaching horse that being quiet and agreeable makes for a happier horse and a more pleasant relationship. The happiest horses I see are the horses that decided that their human leader is worthy and they have nothing to worry about. The spoiled ones remind me of the spoiled children you see throwing tantrums in a store. Have you ever seen a 'happy' spoiled child? I haven't. They are all like spoiled horses -- completely miserable. The well-mannered, relaxed and non-anxious horse is certainly a happier horse.
> 
> As far as CA is concerned, I have been around Clinton Anderson many times. His horses are happy, healthy, well turned out and being obedient has not hurt them one tiny bit.


Cherie

I agree that horses are happier (in general) with leadership. Where we differ is what we see as leadership and what we see as pure 'control' for the sake of it.
Relating to human psychology is not a good comparison, but as you have raised that example them let me expand it.

Sure in terms of children I too cannot stand the spoilt disprespectful ones, and much of our problems now relate to that side of society and a lack of boundaries and responsibility. However just as bad as no rules are the ones with too many. The micro-managed, overly disciplined and controlled, almost bullied child. I know a few of those too and they are the most likely to turn out to be serial killers or commit suicide. (notice how serial killers are always the ones that were quiet and unassuming?)

There is a balance. A middle ground. Clear distinct boundaries, but within those boundaries some freedom to be children. To develop and to grow. 

Unfortunately in the horse world, largely the balance is missed. I see it here all the time. The two extremes. "Oh help me I dont want to discipline my horse I want it to love me - why does it kick?" VS "You need to GET onto it!! Show it who's boss! Move it around, whoop that ***!!".

No balance.

As for CA. I totally completely and utterly disagree. I do not see happy horses. I see 'broken' horses in the truest sense of the word. He is not a horseman he is a trainer. His job is to break a horses spirit and will as fast as humanly possible. That is what he does.

Just look at Mindy. No mind. No will. No spirit. I saw his retirement demonstration. It was shocking. I try to control my negative emotions, but I could have knocked him off that horse and throttled him. It wasn't a salute to Mindy it was an ego show off moment for him (again! arent they all!). He had her backing this way and that, twisting here and there, spinning any which way and for however long he liked. All the time her mouth was gaping as he yanked on the curb. Her hocks were jarred, and you could see her flexing to avoid the spur.

That is not a man who cares about horses, who wants to be a better horseman. That is a man hungry for fame and its trappings. THAT is his priority not the horse. Compare him with someone like Mark Rashid.

That is why he only ever chooses horses that are no challenge. Simply a little spoilt, a little flighty, or no foundation. I have never as yet seem him work with anything bordering on aggressive, or truly dominant. Fact is he couldn't. His cookie cutter approach would get his *** handed back to him in much the same way PP dropped the bat when he came across a horse that even slightly didnt fit the process.



> The well-mannered, relaxed and non-anxious horse is certainly a happier horse.


Exactly. Relaxed and not anxious is something I rarely see when CA is around a horse.


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## imritamiller (Sep 4, 2011)

teaching patience doesn't have to involve a CA pole, but the concept is a top priority in horse training.


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## Jamzimm101987 (Aug 11, 2011)

Cherie said:


> If you have a safe place to tie one up (our pipe arena is very safe), I cannot imagine what problem it would cause. It cures a bunch of them and I have never seen it cause a single one.
> 
> I certainly never said a horse had time to think about previous training. I only want then to NOT WANT to hurry off to the barn or pasture after being ridden. This does that quite well.
> 
> ...


Oooh this is getting good and I am thoroughly enjoying myself as I am an avid CA follower.


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## corymbia (Jul 6, 2011)

bubba13 said:


> Horsepeople always say that the short-term memory (or attention span, whatever you want to call it) is in the ballpark of three seconds, probably less. That's why corrections and rewards must be given instantaneously for the horse to make the connection between cause and effect. We laugh at and then scold the person who gets bucked off, chases her horse around for 10 minutes, then gives him a whoopin' to teach him not to buck again.
> 
> Yet now, if we tie horses up for a couple hours after riding, they'll mull the training session over in their heads, reflect on what went right and what went wrong, and plan on how to do better next time? :shock:



Dead right. There is absolutely no training value whatsoever in tying up a horse for 20 minutes or 2 hours after a training session. It might teach the horse to just stand there, but its not going to help the horse understand any better what its supposed to do next time its been ridden. 

Horses do not have a frontal cortex, the part of the brain required for insight, reasoning and complex thought- as a grass eater they don't need to strategise to catch their food. Training methods which assume that horses can plot, design, reason and plan into the future, or recall and re-examine past events demonstrate a fundamental lack of understanding about the limits of equine cognition. 

Horses are extremely adept at making associations between cues or signals and outcomes they either value or wish to avoid and thus may keep on shying at the same spot in the arena months after getting a fright there, but they don't have insight into their behaviour and when tied to that pole, they aren't running through the training session they just had and working out how to do better next time. Horses have no insight into the things we get them to do when we ride them, they aren't seeing circles or patterns or good scores or the winning post, they are seeing/feeling pressures that come on and off when they move their bodies certain ways and in certain directions. And most certainly they are not thinking about how to annoy or please the person riding or handling them, though they may be trying to get the person and their annoying pressures out of their immediate space by bucking, rearing, shying, pulling back, not getting caught etc. 

All tying a horse to a pole for hours on end will achieve is teach it to be tied up for hours on end. If that's the training aim you are seeking to achieve well and good but its not going to help them do a more rounder circle or jump higher the next time.

And the danger of tying horses up for hours is that they could develop what is called learned helplessness, where they learn that they can't do anything to relieve themselves of an unpleasant experience, like being hungry, itchy, thirsty, so eventually they stop trying. In experienments in dogs and rats, subjects who couldn't escape electric shocks eventually stopped trying to and when tested on new learning tasks afterwards most wouldn't even try to solve them, even when food was the reward. Tying a horse to a pole is not in the league of these experiements, but maybe that "humble" horse is simply dejected and miserable because he can't do anything to improve his situation. As a horse trainer its never a place I want any of my horses to be.


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## christopher (Feb 11, 2011)

corymbia said:


> And the danger of tying horses up for hours is that they could develop what is called learned helplessness, where they learn that they can't do anything to relieve themselves of an unpleasant experience, like being hungry, itchy, thirsty, so eventually they stop trying. In experienments in dogs and rats, subjects who couldn't escape electric shocks eventually stopped trying to and when tested on new learning tasks afterwards most wouldn't even try to solve them, even when food was the reward. Tying a horse to a pole is not in the league of these experiements, but maybe that "humble" horse is simply dejected and miserable because he can't do anything to improve his situation. As a horse trainer its never a place I want any of my horses to be.


if you've ever put a saddle on a horse and and expected it not to take off bucking you're just as if not more guilty of creating "learned helplessness" than someone who ties their horse up all day.

with the animals that couldnt escape the electric shocks, i would bet, that when it was determined they had "stopped trying" the electricity was switched off. so what taught them to *act* helpless was the fact the reward (ceasation of electricity) happened when they were deemed helpless. so when tested on new learning tasks, appearing helpless or "not trying" to solve the problem was the animals attempt to solve the problem.

proven by the fact that you could tie a horse up for hours with a bit of twine and if it had been well tied before it would *act *helpless and submissive, but something spooks it and it breaks the twine. repeat that a few times and the horse no longer *acts* helpless, and pulls back all the time just like a horse that has never been tied before.

so what you suggested doesn't prove the animals mental processes (therefore ability to learn) are any different, it just proves that appearing to "not try" (by humans standards anyway) is just as much of a "try" on the animals part as anything else.


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## kiwigirl (Sep 30, 2009)

Interesting discussion. I don't tie my horse up after a ride BUT I know **** well that I could if I wanted to! Occasionally I go and do stock work, mustering in the morning, drafting, tagging, docking etc in the afternoon. On those days my horse is tied up sometimes for several hours and I expect her to handle it because that is what I require of her. Also If I stop for lunch I will tie up Phoenix for an hour or so then carry on riding. I think it is vital that a horse learns to tie for as long as is required, sometimes it is just one of its jobs.

At the end of the day I feel it is important that I be able to tie my horse at any stage whether it be before the ride, during the ride or after the ride, for as long as may be needed. It is another string on the bow of a well schooled horse. 

That actually brings to mind a day I went on a horse trek, there were about 70 other riders. We stopped for lunch and inevitably there were the handful of riders who had horses that "couldn't be tied". I remember watching these people trying to eat their lunches while being dragged around by their grazing horses, and thinking how frikken ridiculous they looked!


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## Red Gate Farm (Aug 28, 2011)

Nick: Hey Chip, whatcha doing over there?

Chip: Standing at the “Patience Pole” after my workout.

Nick: What’s a Patience Pole.

Chip: Darned if I know! Just this post here that she ties me to.

Nick: Ohhh wait, I think I heard about those! You’re supposed to mull over your training session or some such thing.

Chip: My what?

Nick: Your training session. You know, that work you just did with her.

Chip: pffffft, I just like standing here because I’m cooling off and don’t have to work. I’m not thinking about anything.

Nick: Do you remember your training session at all? The stuff you learned?

Chip: My what?

Nick: Yanno, you have the memory of a goldfish; about 3 seconds _*horse laugh*_

Chip: A goldfish eh?

Nick: Yup, a goldfish.

Chip: _*cocks an ear*_ What about a goldfish?

Nick: _*bigger horse laugh*_


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## Mike Zimmerman (Oct 30, 2011)

I can see where not turning a horse loose right after a workout is good, and I think being able to tie for any length of time is good too. To those that think a horse doesn't take a lesson with them and "think" about it, why do we always want to end a session on a good note? I don't think the idea of letting a horse "soak on something" is only CA's, I believe Ray Hunt and the Dorrance bros. subscribed to it too. I think the three second rule of thumb is only your window for correction, there is no window for positive reinforcement. If horses are as dumb as some of you suggest how the heck do we teach them anything?!?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jolly Badger (Oct 26, 2009)

I'm not really familiar with CA's training methods, or the reasons he gives for doing all of the things that he does, but I don't see anything necessarily bad about tying a horse after he's been worked. And it's not like he invented the concept of tying a horse when you're done riding him for a while.

People have been doing that for years. 

Everyone seems to have their own opinions on what must go through the horse's mind while he's tied. Maybe, as some said, he stands there and reflects on the day's lesson. Or maybe he just stands there, happy that the "lesson" part is over. Or maybe he stands there and looks forward to going back to his stall or turnout afterward.:lol:

In any case, I think it's a useful thing to teach a horse to stand tied for a little while after any kind of a workout. I see it as kind of a decompression time, between the workout and stall/turnout. 

I don't care _what_ he thinks about, just as long as he doesn't think that being back at the barn after a trail ride means he gets to go straight to his stall and eat.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Returning a horse to his stall or pasture right after riding him is no different than taking a horse to his stall after getting out of a show class.

The horse just gets more and more anxious to head to the gate and get the ride over with because His some, herd, feed and comfort wait for him.

I always tie a horse up for a while when we are done riding. Sometimes I even loosen the girth and leave the saddle on. If a horse is the least bit anxious to get back to the trailer or the barn, I ride past 'home', loosen the girth and tie him well away from the barn. At home, I may tie one along the highway that goes past our house. I won't put them up until they are standing quietly with a hind leg cocked. Then, I go out, bring them in, unsaddle them and put them away.

Are they contemplating on the day's lesson. Of course not. They are hopefully bored and just go to sleep waiting to be put up. 

Many times, I have been ready to unsaddle a horse and put it up and the horse was all antsy and anxious, so the plan changed and they got tied up away from the barn till the hind leg rested.

The payoff -- I don't have herd bound, barn sour, arena or gate sour horses. I don't have horses that go faster toward the barn or the gate than they go away from it. It really does work.


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## LoveTheSaddlebreds (Jul 9, 2009)

This is a kind of awful example, but my horse was fidgety in the cross ties and never really liked to sit back and relax. Well, I accidently forgot to put her away one time (we have four isles and it's easy to not run into a horse if they're in the fourth isle like she is).. Keep in mind I have a memory problem anyway ^^' lol but anyways, she was in the cross ties for about... 4 hours maybe? haha.. yea, I'm not too proud of it. But long story short, she now doesn't mind standing to be groomed/tacked up anymore!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

The lesson sticks. It is a positive learning experience for EVERY horse to learn to stand quietly while tied. I am glad your outcome was positive. It could have been tragic, but you were lucky. Horses left unattended in cross ties, even really well-trained ones, can try to turn around in them and end up dead. Cross ties on concrete or asphalt are responsible many deadly injuries from horses the 'do the splits' with their back feet with the result of cracking their pelvis'. Seen it -- been there at a big H/J barn when it happened. Horse ended up being put down after months of treatment and re-hab. I have heard of many others. But, congratulations on getting your to become 'settled' and happy while tied.


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## GoldSahara (May 4, 2010)

Wow. I've been really busy lately and hadn't checked this thread in a while. Looks like I started a real debate. Cool! lol

Well, I have made a bit of progress with Sahara. I have been tying her up after training, just for like 10 to 15 minutes or so and that combined with other methods to work on her being barn sour has made a difference. I feel much safer while riding her and enjoy my experience a lot more because she isn't constantly turning back and even doing "mini rears" to get back to the barn. I think that tying up has helped her learn that the end of the riding doesn't mean dinner time and I will continue to increase the time she spends tyed up so she isn't so impatient. 

As far as her learning to not respond to negative pressure, such as standing even though being caught in an electric fence......well, I can't say I see how that is going to happen. She isn't being electrified while standing there. I also tie her in a way that when she pulls on the rope, it will give her some room, like with CA's ring. 

Can I just say how excited I am at the progress she has made? Really excited! Thanks everyone for your input. Let's keep this going so it can help more people.


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## My2horsies (Jan 17, 2012)

*Tried it one time...*

I tried tying my 9 y/o Palomino QH to a post on the barn for his 'thinking time' after his training. He ripped the front wall of the barn off and bolted all around the pasture with the wall bouncing on the ground behind him. :shock: Not pretty. We don't do that anymore. It is not a tying issue, because we had been tying them to posts all week with no issues.


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## COWCHICK77 (Jun 21, 2010)

Well since this thread has been brought back to life...I shall put in my two-cents.

The pole CA sells is not a new idea, I rode for a cutting horse trainer years ago that had these. We tied all of our horses out there on them. I would saddle horses...get cattle in...trainer shows up...I started loping horses, hand them off to him to work, back to me to cool out..put back on the pole. In between lopin horses I would take horses off the poles and washed, dried and put back in pens. None of those horses ever thought about going to a gate or back to a stall. They knew that just because we were done working it was over. Horses don't think that being saddled and tied is punishment, they only do if the have been spoiled by put back straight away. (I will say some horse are more prone to this than others,in my opinion). They are happy to stand tied without having to do anything...horses are lazy by nature. 

I also saddle all my horses, tie them in the arena, work one, tie him back to fence, work another, tie him back to fence..and so on. This also teaches that the arena is not a place of constant work. Their cinches get loosened and they get to relax and not work. My horses walk calmly into an arena and don't leak towards the gate. Same concept. 

I would rather practice to prevent a problem rather than try to fix one later...


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## CowgurlUp91 (Jan 18, 2012)

I have a huge mare who hates being tied. She can't stand her head being down... Personally, I would love a patience pole for before working with the horse or one days I can't ride and want them to learn something.


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