# The real cost of kill pen rescues



## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

IMO, yes they are saving a life it just costs the rescues more to buy from a kill buyer. 

The real problem to me is, why are there so many "extra" horses? 150,000 going to slaughter each year? Horrible. Where are all these horse coming from? Breeders producing more than the market can absorb? 

See ads frequently where the horse is just out in the pasture "not being used" so they are going to sell them so someone can use them. Then the poor horse is taken out of his pasture and sent off most likely to a slaughter house. 

The ones that really upset me are when I see ads for older horse that people have owned for 15-20 years. How does anyone sell a horse they've owned for 18 years? Heartless and cruel. 

I can only help the ones under my care and prevent them from ever being sold. I can't help 150,000 horses a year. jeez.


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## DancingArabian (Jul 15, 2011)

AnitaAnne said:


> IMO, yes they are saving a life it just costs the rescues more to buy from a kill buyer.
> 
> The real problem to me is, why are there so many "extra" horses? 150,000 going to slaughter each year? Horrible. Where are all these horse coming from? Breeders producing more than the market can absorb?
> 
> ...


They come from the various race tracks. They come from breeders who bred a mess and can't place it, or an accidental breeding. They come from show barns, from internationally known barns, and from backyards. They come from people who can no longer afford to keep them. They come from people who no longer want to pay their bills (too old, lame, dangerous, etc). They come from people whose owner's passed and the relatives didn't want to bother doing better for the horse. Those horses come from all kinds of places. Every horse is just 1 home away from being in a kill pen.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I've been saying this for years. 

“There is a misconception among rescuers, when they bail a horse from a kill buyer’s broker program, that they are saving a horse from slaughter. Sadly, this is false,” she says. “While that particular horse may be safe, another horse immediately takes its place on the truck; the number of horses shipping to slaughter does not change despite their fervent efforts. Kill buyers are generally contracted with the slaughter plant for a certain number of horses, and they will deliver that number of horses regardless." 

“The more horses are bailed out, the higher those prices are going to climb,” continues Williams. “In the past week, I’ve seen kill-buyer horses advertised for $900 to $1,000. That is far more than they are going to get if they send those horses to slaughter.”

“If you want to save a horse, go to the auction and buy him for a fraction of the price [that killer buyers will require for bail],” says Williams, noting that the price to bail a horse from kill pens is going “up and up—but the demand for horsemeat and the price of horsemeat don’t appear to be. Kill buyers are using the threat of slaughter to sell more horses. Their business is to buy and sell horses— whether it’s to individuals, rescues or slaughterhouses."

There's another pipeline that you can pull horses from too. There's a farrier here in town who trims horses for a lot of people and is involved in volunteering for a local "Boy's Town" home. He discovered that when people donate a horse to the home, they can take a tax deduction of the worth on the open market of that horse. The boy's home then has him transport the horse straight to the kill buyer for whatever he's giving (around $400 for a horse that doesn't need feeding up, uninjured, etc) and the boy's home gets that money. When something really nice comes through, he brings the horse to my trainer who gives him the same amount he'd have gotten from the KB for the horse and then he tries to find it a home. If it's a well bred mare the trainer has asked me if I want the horse, and if so he gives me the horse. Last one he gave me cost me a fortune, so my answer has been no for a little while until I can recuperate from the last horse. Point is, if you can find out where that's going on, those are more horses that are going to the KB and you can get one before it gets there. 

There are quite a few ways to 'disrupt the flow' in the horse pipeline, you just have to be able to handle whatever you find. By the time a horse is at the so called rescue, it's safe. There are many, many more who don't get that far who need your efforts more.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I signed up for a couple of groups on facebook to widen my search so in the event the right horse with the right training at a price I can afford shows up for my child I will hopefully see it in time to be the first person to respond. I have been sickened by the prices on horses in the kill pens. I expect to pay packers price not be given the same or slightly lower price than I would find on the open market or an even higher price with the option of papers. I agree with DC. Find a pipeline that you know and trust. Also agree with DA and will add plenty of them come from homes where the kids got interested in other sports or dating and the horse is now a liability. Just connecting with the horse community can open doors to a horse you wouldn't expect for a fair/reasonable price. With the kill pens it is now, now now. There is often no time to evaluate or think over a decision unless you are willing to spend the money to put them further back in line and literally buy them more time. You don't get the money back if you decide not to purchase.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Yup. And because of that, the emotional blackmail, a horse who is advertised as what they are and priced for what they should be will sit and sit and sit until the person who owns it will get tired of it and then sends the horse to the KB or the auction. I have a mare right now that I have advertised for $500. More than the per lb price but less than a 'ransom' price and because it's private party, no bites. If I would stoop low enough to say, "Buy her now or tomorrow she's going to Joe" (euphemism for the KB), she'd sell today. I'm not interested in that or that kind of abuse, because I would get plenty let me tell you, but she sits. Nice horse, nice personality, doesn't fit my program and so needs a new zip code. But she doesn't need 'rescuing' so she sits.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

DA, I finally sold a lovely TB I've been advertising for the last several years. I took a huge hit financially because I'm more interested in him going to a good, working home than just selling him to whoever.


His new owner is 20 years younger than me, and wants to do dressage and mostly jumping with him. She's already booked him and herself for lessons. She's a fine, lovely young woman and once I've delivered him to her I'll not only be making NO money on him, I'll be financially in the hole. But he's going to be in the right hands, and will have the career and attention he wasn't getting from me. I'm satisfied.


I'd been toying with the idea of auction because I needed him off my feed bill before winter but that was the last, worst option and it wouldn't have sat right with me for the rest of my life, even though I know that not all auctions have kill buyers at them. I think once a horse hits the auction spiral, their fate is more shaky than one sold privately.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> DA, I finally sold a lovely TB I've been advertising for the last several years. I took a huge hit financially because I'm more interested in him going to a good, working home than just selling him to whoever.
> 
> 
> His new owner is 20 years younger than me, and wants to do dressage and mostly jumping with him. She's already booked him and herself for lessons. She's a fine, lovely young woman and once I've delivered him to her I'll not only be making NO money on him, I'll be financially in the hole. But he's going to be in the right hands, and will have the career and attention he wasn't getting from me. I'm satisfied.
> ...


I agree with you. My horse won't go to the auction, it doesn't cost that much to keep her. But she doesn't fit my program, so it would be nice to find her a different good home. $500 is only because that will keep her out of the auction cycle and way from "Joe". She's too young (IMO) to just euthanize and there's nothing wrong with her anyhow. If I can find her a nice home that's fine but otherwise she'll stay here. I actually like her a lot, so don't mind her being here but could use the room for other things. It's just frustrating to see those "ransom" horses fetch twice what she's listed for and they aren't bred as well, don't have their papers, may or may not have physical, mental or behavioral issues that she doesn't have, and she sits.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I have a pair that I would need to sell just to have room for another. Child's instructor would like to see him on something younger, taller and sturdier than what she has available for lessons so I am looking. If I found something she could use for other students then it would be at her place and we could work something out. Other wise it would be here and trailered back and forth which would mean borrowing or renting until I could afford the payment for what would work. I too have a few that I have listed for sale and they just haven't sold. It wasn't because of the price tag or that they aren't rideable (or workable in the case of a couple of the drafts). They sit in the pasture and get used whenever we need an extra horse or two. If I had the time and money to promote them in the discipline they would do best at I am sure they would sell in a heart beat. Western is what goes and I have zero experience in that discipline. Well not zero but not enough. I'd take the loss if I knew they were going to a good home and would be used. The two that I have he could take are in the same boat as hers. Getting older and size wise a little small. One loves to jump - the other doesn't but can. They are in their 20's and wouldn't stand up to the higher jumps. We ride them more than anything else here mainly because they are the go to for when we have company and are typically the first at the fence asking for their halters. At their age and with my child's feelings they will likely be here until the end. I thought to put up an ad on one of the sites on Facebook that lets you advertise in the tri state area but the longer I have been watching it seems like these people just play musical horses. They always are looking for something and selling something they have only had a "short" time. Most are not papered, underweight and expressly advertised as not a "beginner" horse even though they are "bomb proof, no bite, rear, kick or buck" or they are at the other end of the spectrum and are being sold for 10s of thousands. Don't need one of that caliber. Don't really trust that these are worth that but they get it and then you eventually see those up for resale for the original price or more. Most, it seems are in search of the elusive 1D/2D horse for free. Too bad so sad as one of the mares has had a few foals that are just that now that they are grown and trained and the two I have would probably be right up there except that isn't something I do or would even begin to know how to train for. I wanted a solid trail horse. One is quite capable and the other started on that path. I got what I wanted and they can stay. They just limit the direction I could go for my child that went another direction.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

AnitaAnne said:


> The ones that really upset me are when I see ads for older horse that people have owned for 15-20 years. How does anyone sell a horse they've owned for 18 years? Heartless and cruel.
> 
> I can only help the ones under my care and prevent them from ever being sold. I can't help 150,000 horses a year. jeez.



The woman who owns the land where I keep my horses just got a mare from a family who lost their pasture. The mare would have been at auction at the end of the week. 

We're in farm country. Pasture is few and far between as 95% of them have been plowed up for corn and soybean cropland. Every farm used to have a horse or two and a big pasture for cattle and horses-- now very few do. Those that do keep cattle on a lot and horses in pens and have an arena-- few have pasture. Those that do have pasture are in trouble-- it hasn't rained for months and the grass is nearly gone. Pastures that produced 2,3, or 4 cuttings of hay produced one cutting or none. Even folks with pasture are trying to unload horses-- usually we don't feed hay until October, and right now, we're already feeding hay in July. That's unheard of. I've not seen this happen in 30+ years. Hay has doubled in price already and will go higher unless we get a ton of rain in the next week or two, and that isn't likely to happen.

The family that owned the mare lost the pasture they've rented for 21 years. Land with pasture is obscenely expensive because if you want buy it, you're up against the farmers with millions of dollars worth of land as collateral who can bid it as high as it goes to turn it into cropland. The pasture owner died suddenly, and if his family puts that 60 acre pasture into the auction, they'll make a few hundred thousand more dollars on the sale. 

The family who has the horses have five children and live on 2 acres, on one income (mom is disabled). They can't afford pens and sheds and buying hay at high prices on short notice. Their horses have a week to find new homes. The big ranch gelding and broke kids' pony were easy sells. The 4 y.o. green broke mare with a wire scar on her shoulder will probably end up at auction Friday night and sell for $300 to a KB. The little pinto mare found a home with my property owner because she's little and cute and sweet and quiet. Had she not taken her, she'd be at the auction in a few days, too. Nobody wants 'ordinary' horses. If they have issues, aren't dead broke, grade, etc. your only option aside from a bullet in the head is the low-end auction, and the fate will likely be the same. THAT's how horses end up at auction-- no other options. Not everyone can afford shoveling money into horses they can't use or feed.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Reading on the Human Society's site, they say that the US law against slaughtering horses did not reduce the number of US horses slaughtered. It just changed where the plant was located and usually with less regulation for the humane treatment of the horses.

The Human Society goes on to claim that because of the horse's temperament, there is no such thing as a humane way of slaughtering horses. And they go on to mention that individually owned horses often have chemicals given to them that outlaws use for human consumption.

The humane society is forced to humanly euthanize over half the animals they take in each year as there is no money for their continued care and they can't just turn them loose.

Before I ever sold a horse to auction, I would prefer to euthanize it humanely.

My 1 1/2 cents


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Our society is also heavily pushed toward 'rescuing' something. People take pride in claiming their dog is a rescue. Purchasing a pet is a faux pax. I see the same thing happening with horses. It's a point of pride to say "I rescued this horse" as opposed to "I bought this horse from a lady who had him for sale." Sorry, but if you paid money for something, whether that was a purchase price or a 'rehoming fee' you bought it. A lot of rescues make big money off of 'selling' dogs and horses for a lot more than they're worth because people feel the need to say they have a 'rescue' animal, or feel their self-worth is tied up in something they 'saved.' 

I, too, see good, sound, usable horses that sit and sit for sale, and buyers will bypass those horses and get something completely unknown at an auction or from one of the KB rescue places because they feel good 'saving a life.' 

Heck, an acquaintance of mine had her eye on a big, bay horse owned by the guy down the road for years. He was listed for sale, and she went over to see him and waffled because "I don't want to spend that much for him." Guy who owned him took him to a sale to get him off the feed bill, and he sold for $500 more than the owner wanted for him.... to the acquaintance of mine. She now claims she 'rescued him.' *head desk


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## k9kenai (Jul 1, 2017)

The New Mexico Horse Council posted an interesting article titled "Equine Welfare: What IS Humane?" that goes over how things have changed for auction horses and how the banning of horse slaughter in the U.S. has increased horse abandonment, cruelty cases, etc. It is specifically related to New Mexico, but the overall tone can be related to a more general area.

I couldn't link directly to the PDF file, but you can find it towards the bottom of the references page on the NMHC website.

Having worked in dog and cat rescue for over a decade, and specifically working as a dog trainer, I have seen a lot of clients "rescue" a dog with severe aggression, fear issues, etc that was totally unsuitable for their skill level as a dog owner. I ask them why and what they think they can do for this dog and a lot of them give me blank stares and ask me what I mean and that they assumed that the dog could be worked with as any other dog. When I explain to them the psychology behind such severe issues and the amount of training, work, and potential liability issues that can occur, some of them scoff and don't believe me and that dog winds up in the shelter a few weeks later with a bite warning attached to its cage and is scheduled for euthanasia. Others recognize that they don't have the resources and we work towards finding a reputable rescue group with resources to work with the dog. And a select few DO put in the work to rehab the dog successfully but understand there may always be issues. I find that it is the people who constantly say "I rescued him" as an excuse for the dog's behavior that wind up having the most problems with their dog and in the end the dog suffers for it. If people only stopped to think and did more research about what is suitable for them and took a good hard look at their abilities, then those dogs who DO have issues can potentially be pulled by a private organization rather than an individual who may only make the problem worse and ruin the dog's chances altogether.

I think it would be similar for horses and I see dozens of Craigslist ads all the time for horses that say "I rescued him but have run out resources to care for him" or "he proved to be too much for me to handle". Like the dogs, many of these rescue horses end up with unsuitable owners and some of their problems may only become worse, especially in the wrong hands. The owners may mean well in the beginning, but an uneducated owner can be a dangerous owner and they may quickly find themselves in over their heads.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

We're top heavy on horses... we have two too many, IMO... but I will NOT send them to auction or sell them off to the first person that comes along with a few hundred bucks. This is a constant argument at our house - DH sees them as a drain on his cattle grass (I say he has too many darn cows for the size of our place). Other than fed, the hoof trimming, the occasional vet check up and coggins if we're going somewhere with them, the only thing they cost us is our time to be around them and ride them.

Even that old mare my daughter dragged in - I'll keep her as a pasture potato because she's a sweet natured mare. 

(It still feels horribly unfair to buy one and then fob them off on someone else, and IDK why. A bit like dumping a dog)

While digging around for barrel saddles on Craigslist today I noticed two different horses - one in the Dallas (Cleburn) area, another in the Tulsa area - and frankly they looked identical to me, but one was a mare, the other a gelding.

Both looked one step away from the grave. The mare is a gentled BLM horse (A rescue?). The gelding no history was given, the seller just said they'd only had him two weeks, he'd been wormed and had his coggins, and was 'eating good now', but it was implied the gelding was also a rescue. You could see every bone in their hips and spine, and their necks were stupidly thin. And I'm not talking the 'had the flu or a cold and dropped weight' type thin. You could tell this was a long, long time doing without food.

IDK. It's just... a helluva mess. The market is saturated with horses and people are less and less likely to have the proper amount of land, or time, to care for one. We love them, we adore them, we admire them, they're an icon of a wilder, more adventurous time in our history... and no one has quite such a romanticized love affair with the horse as Americans do, And so, in a way, we're damning them to horrible fates by our own desires to have so many of them.

Like my mother says about people: There's just too d*@& many of us... 

And the same is true of the horse, at least in the US.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I just read a National Geographic interview of Masters. He apparently really believed that UnBranded could cause the adoption of 50,000 mustangs in holding pens. I just looked up the number of recreational horses in the US and it's around 4 million so 50,000 wouldn't have been that many to adopt in a way.

He also commented that if each "keyboard protestor" would adopt just on mustang the problem would dissolve overnight.

And I agree with him that it is not humane to allow horses to control their population by hunger and starvation.

I really am inclined to believe that were it not for the protestors the BLM could have had the population under control by now without euthanization.

It's a problem, and I'm not sure living out their lives in holding pens is humane either.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

*SilverMaple* I agree completely with the overuse of the word "rescue". I work in a feed store and hear it all the time. I'll comment on a dog that comes in and more often than not the response from the human at the end of the leash will be "I rescued him" or "he/she's a rescue" Isn't that great! By the end of the day I want to scream! You didn't rescue that dog. You adopted/purchased/rehomed/acquired whatever, but you didn't rescue it. 

I think the overuse of the term steals validity from the honest people that work hard to take in, train, school, teach what they can so that individual animal will have a chance at a decent life.

Same with horses. Many, many people think they're doing the right thing by "rescuing" a horse from a kill pen, but they don't always understand what they're getting into. 

I met a family once that bought a really nice looking gelding from lot that advertised "going to slaughter by Friday!" Anyway, they had no clue. Even though he looked great he had no training what so ever. Their intention was to let their children ride him. They didn't realize that horses need training and kids need teaching. Horses eat a lot and have housing requirements and health care requirements. All of which they didn't research before their exciting adventure into rural life. Luckily I was able to put them in contact with a friend of mine that can train and sell on consignment. It turned out well for that particular horse, but for sooooo many others it doesn't.

Agree with *Anita Ann*, much of the problem is continued breeding for no particular reason. Or breeding horses with behavior issues just because "they'll making a cute baby" And the worst. A family that had a horse for 20 or more years. Taught all their kids to ride. Went to gymkhanas. Loved on and treated well for years. Then one day. BAM! Shoved on a truck with countless other horses hungry, thirsty, scared and confused. For the horror of traveling to Mexico to endure the tortuous end that is meted out there. Just because the family didn't want to have to feed senior feed. It cost too much. :icon_frown:

I have a 34 year old gelding. Can't ride him anymore and he's beginning to show his age. But, he's happy and still rules the pasture. He'll die here and we'll bury him here. Husband and I have even discussed that we really can't even move until he's gone. I don't think he'd make a transition to a new climate very well. So, we wait and enjoy his bossy antics.

All that long dissertation behind me, I'd like to say that I'm not totally against horse for meat. Not sure I could eat one of my own, but it's meat. We raise herds of cows for meat. Flocks of sheep and lambs. Pigs and chickens. We eat 'em. What I'm TOTALLY against are the procedures in place right now. It's horrific. I just will never understand WHY animal slaughter has to be abusive. I was raised in an area where we slaughtered the majority of our own food. We didn't abuse them. We were respectful and considerate of their shelter, feeding and health care.

I just can't help but feel theres got to be better way. The ugly fact is that even though there probably is, it would involve money and manpower. Two things the "powers that be" would be reluctant to put into the endeavor. 

So for those of us that choose to keep our horses and dogs, we just hang on and do the best we can to help others when possible.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Another reason reputable rescues have a hard time placing horses--- too many requirements. I looked into adopting an OTTB. I honestly couldn't find one that A.) seemed to have a clue and had good, usable horses that looked like they might stay sound, B.) adopted in our area, or C.) would allow me to adopt. I didn't have the right fence. I don't ride with a trainer. They required a type of feed we can't get here-- explaining that if the horse didn't do well on whatever I was feeding him, we'd experiment until we found something that worked fell on dull ears-- I'm not going to let a horse do poorly, but I also don't think all horses need a zillion supplements and 3 kinds of feed, either. It's like they assume everyone is a freaking idiot who has never had a horse before, and no horse could POSSIBLY survive without blankets, certain brand of feed, supplements, etc. If the horse needs them, fine, but no allowance made for 'if he needs it, we'll do what we need to do'. Throw in that they can visit your premises unannounced and take the horse back for any reason, and it's not worth it. In mentally going over the dozens of people I know with happy, healthy, well-cared for horses of all breeds, not ONE would meet the requirements. That's a lot of good homes you're passing by all the while moaning that nobody wants these nice horses. You can go to an auction with that same amount of money and pick up a horse free and clear.

A lot of dog rescues have the same issue. Nobody can possibly live up to the requirements. I show and train dogs, and I can't tell you how many people have given up on a rescue and finally just bought their dog because either nobody called them back, they were told they weren't qualified but not told why, or the list of requirements was insane. Our neighbor looked long and hard for a rescue dog, and finally bought from a breeder because she couldn't find a rescue that would adopt to her because she worked. Didn't matter that she worked a mile from her house and was home at lunch, had raised and shown dogs, and would have been an excellent home even for a problem dog. She worked, so no dog. Incidentally, the same rescue will refuse placement if you don't work because they think you won't have enough money to care for the dog... She finally found a great dog from a reputable breeder, and I'm happy for her. Considering what some rescues want for a purebred, it's cheaper to buy from a breeder-- plus you get one-on-one questions answered for the life of the dog, a buyback clause, and a health guarantee.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

^^^^ It is easier to adopt a human child - less paperwork, fewer restrictions, zero oversight.

I actually have a friend in Pennsylvania that's adopted a couple of cats. The rehoming fees are absurd, plus the shelter had to come out and do a HOME STUDY (LIKE AN ADOPTION) to approve the adoption, they had to take some kind of class... and all this for a couple of half-grown 'trash cats'.

In an effort to ensure these animals, horses, dogs, and cats, all have good homes, I think we're seeing a LOT of HUGE roadblocks thrown up, and so the people with the means and desire to actually take in a rescue horse, etc, are deterred from doing so.

Why pay $250.00 for an alley cat, or a starving horse when you can find kittens all over the place for free, and you can buy a horse at auction for $400.00?


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

^ I have trained and shown dogs since I was in high school. Someone is home most of every day. We have a big house and a fenced yard and lots of experience..... but I can't adopt a pet from our local shelter because I had an intact male show dog before he was retired, so I'm on the 'blacklist'. They'd rather adopt a 2 y.o. police dog washout Malinois to a young family with no fenced yard as their first dog than let me have him. Needless to say, said dog was back in the shelter four days later. Then they said they'd rather euth him than let me have him. I got a friend to bail him for me on his last day-- single guy, no dog experience, lives in a small apartment-- but he got approved! He gave the dog to me, I fostered the dog and we got him into Malinois rescue with a good home, but sheesh... it was ridiculous. Really a nice dog, but a working-bred Malinois is not exactly the pet for everyone....


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

SilverMaple said:


> Another reason reputable rescues have a hard time placing horses--- too many requirements. I looked into adopting an OTTB. I honestly couldn't find one that A.) seemed to have a clue and had good, usable horses that looked like they might stay sound, B.) adopted in our area, or C.) would allow me to adopt. I didn't have the right fence. I don't ride with a trainer. They required a type of feed we can't get here-- explaining that if the horse didn't do well on whatever I was feeding him, we'd experiment until we found something that worked fell on dull ears-- I'm not going to let a horse do poorly, but I also don't think all horses need a zillion supplements and 3 kinds of feed, either. It's like they assume everyone is a freaking idiot who has never had a horse before, and no horse could POSSIBLY survive without blankets, certain brand of feed, supplements, etc. If the horse needs them, fine, but no allowance made for 'if he needs it, we'll do what we need to do'. Throw in that they can visit your premises unannounced and take the horse back for any reason, and it's not worth it. In mentally going over the dozens of people I know with happy, healthy, well-cared for horses of all breeds, not ONE would meet the requirements. That's a lot of good homes you're passing by all the while moaning that nobody wants these nice horses. You can go to an auction with that same amount of money and pick up a horse free and clear.
> 
> A lot of dog rescues have the same issue. Nobody can possibly live up to the requirements. I show and train dogs, and I can't tell you how many people have given up on a rescue and finally just bought their dog because either nobody called them back, they were told they weren't qualified but not told why, or the list of requirements was insane. Our neighbor looked long and hard for a rescue dog, and finally bought from a breeder because she couldn't find a rescue that would adopt to her because she worked. Didn't matter that she worked a mile from her house and was home at lunch, had raised and shown dogs, and would have been an excellent home even for a problem dog. She worked, so no dog. Incidentally, the same rescue will refuse placement if you don't work because they think you won't have enough money to care for the dog... She finally found a great dog from a reputable breeder, and I'm happy for her. Considering what some rescues want for a purebred, it's cheaper to buy from a breeder-- plus you get one-on-one questions answered for the life of the dog, a buyback clause, and a health guarantee.



:rofl::rofl::rofl:
Right? It's absolutely insane! But I have to wonder if they actually follow through? I have no idea as I've never gone that route. 

When I was ready to add a dog to our family years ago, I searched several rescue sites but the cost was VERY prohibitive for a dog with virtually no history


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

We have the opposite problem here. Our shelters can't give animals away. Right now, our tiny city shelter up the road from us is out of room because they have too many animals needing homes. They're posting on FB and CL to find them homes. No requirements other than paying the adoption fee. Our one major local rescue is the same. They have animals boarded at our clinic because they don't have enough fosters and no one is adopting. Again, no more requirements than paying the adoption fee and a meet-and-greet if you already have dogs. What's sad is that people here will adopt from the shelters in other cities and counties, but they won't adopt from our shelters.

The horse market here is ridiculous. You see good using horses for $500-750 and prospects with no real training and mediocre bloodlines for $5000+. There isn't really an in-between. We also don't have kill auctions that I'm aware of. Ranch ramudas a couple of times a year, yes, but not straight up kill auctions. And OTTBs are a dime a dozen. Most rescues don't have a ton of requirements and don't do home visits. They just want the horses gone.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Just an FYI btw... We've picked up a horse from auction for $400.00 ($475??? can't remember now). Leroy the palomino I later sold to my cousin's 19 year old daughter.

Leroy was raised spoiled, an 'only child' horse, then sold to some trail riders, and he had a clutz problem - in fact he fell twice with me and Leroy was a HUGE HORSE to be falling down. It was scary, frankly. And he was hard headed.

He was absolutely wonderful on the ground though. Loving, and though battered by other horses and had a nasty cut on the heel of one foot and an infected frog (NOT the cause of his tripping though) he was quite calm. He'd fall asleep while putting a saddle on him. Never startled, liked to go to sleep with his head on my shoulder, his jaw pressed to mine when I'd sit on the back corner of our car-haul trailer (Just a hard headed PIG to ride)

Cousin's daughter and Leroy get along like peas and carrots though, and she's going into equine rehab and training, her 32 year old QH recently passed, so Leroy is now her BFHF (Best friend horse forever).

For that $475.00 horse, things turned out very well... and there were no stupidly tight and infinite hoops to jump through to get him. He just needed some feeding up, some TLC, and a kind hand.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> We have the opposite problem here. Our shelters can't give animals away. Right now, our tiny city shelter up the road from us is out of room because they have too many animals needing homes. They're posting on FB and CL to find them homes. No requirements other than paying the adoption fee. Our one major local rescue is the same. They have animals boarded at our clinic because they don't have enough fosters and no one is adopting. Again, no more requirements than paying the adoption fee and a meet-and-greet if you already have dogs. What's sad is that people here will adopt from the shelters in other cities and counties, but they won't adopt from our shelters.
> 
> The horse market here is ridiculous. You see good using horses for $500-750 and prospects with no real training and mediocre bloodlines for $5000+. There isn't really an in-between. We also don't have kill auctions that I'm aware of. Ranch ramudas a couple of times a year, yes, but not straight up kill auctions. And OTTBs are a dime a dozen. Most rescues don't have a ton of requirements and don't do home visits. They just want the horses gone.


Our shelters are full of pit mixes, lab mixes, and Chihuahua mixes. And farm-type cats. Nothing else. Those same animals are also available for free from Craigslist, FB, and word-of-mouth. It's similar to the mustang issue-- many people that want dogs or horses don't want a pit mix or a mustang, so those animals sit unadopted. Or they don't have the skillset (or facilities) to train a certain type of dog or start a wild horse. Unless you like the challenge, why buy a BLM horse when you can get something that's trained for a similar amount? Or if you want to train it yourself, you pick up a papered two y.o. who leads, ties, clips, loads, and has some resale value to start instead? Or one of the 'free or he goes to the sale on Sunday' weanlings or yearlings that show up on CL by the dozen every fall? Why get a pit or a lab from a shelter with no history, when you can get one from the guy down the block for free? That's if pits are even allowed in your area or on your insurance anymore, which is a 'whole 'nuther ball 'o wax.....


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> I just read a National Geographic interview of Masters. He apparently really believed that UnBranded could cause the adoption of 50,000 mustangs in holding pens. I just looked up the number of recreational horses in the US and it's around 4 million so 50,000 wouldn't have been that many to adopt in a way.
> 
> He also commented that if each "keyboard protestor" would adopt just on mustang the problem would dissolve overnight.
> 
> ...


Yes, this is a whole different can of worms, and Canada has looked for different solutions, to help manage our feral hroses, seeing some of the fall out of the failure of the American program, specifically the rule that mustangs that can't be adopted, can also not go to slaughter. Thus, there number increases every year, kept at tax payer expense
In our area, there has been a program implemented to 'dart'many of the feral mares. The drug renders them infertile for a number of years
A government program also saw some of those feral hroses put through an auction, with the stipulation that they could not go for slaughter
Perhaps a noble idea, but those horses old for high prices, and many were bought by people in no way equipped to handle mustangs, driven by some Hollywood type of un reality.
We are going off on a tangent, and this is another subject completely, but banning horse slaughter only succeeded in worse fates for many horses-either shipped to Mexico, where no slaughter or transport laws exist, or left to starvation and neglect
instead, humane slaughter ans transport should have been lobbied for, that, and you can't turn off the solution at on end, without turning off the tap at the other end!
THus, we need some regulations on breeding horses, esp on this side of the ocean. But, my God, that is government control!


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Silver , maybe they thought you were breeding ? Or there would be 'fights' with the natural male. 
They have specials here to get the animals adopted. Unless no animals are ever euthed, then it is a kill shelter. 
Almost every auction has kill buyers. I do not know of a single auction that does not have at least one kill buyer in the crowd. 
I think that if you get a horse from a rescue or a dog then you did not rescue it. You paid money for it, so you bought it. Same for horses. I have horses I bought from a rescue.
I also had a horse that was given to me to keep it from a horrid situation that did require tons of wormer, teeth float, and about 300- 400 lbs and she was a tiny arab, So I did consider her a rescue. She was lame /cripple . So she stayed here until she had to be euthed (cancer).


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Its a shame a lot of people, be they By Gawd Ain't Nobody Tellin ME How to Breed Mah Horses and When, or the OOOO PRETTY PONIES SHOULD BE FREE people, can't see the forest for the trees.

In a way, I feel its a bit like game management: With proper regulation and controls over hunting, a lot of once scarce animals have made tremendous come backs and the genetics are just off the charts (lots of healthy whitetails, lots of fat does and bucks with huge racks, as an example). But when the hunting regulations tightened down in the 80s, there was the whole BY GAWD GOBUMENT CAIN'T TELL ME WHAT T'DUE... and then in the past ten years, loosening up how many does you can bag gets the Leave Bambi's Mother Alone crowd all upset....

Its a darn shame we even have to discuss NEEDING regulations on irresponsibly breeding horses, or not hunting an animal till its unheard of in an area where they were once native, but sadly, sometimes regulation is demanded - and in its more perfect form that's what government is FOR.

Speaking of whole nuther bags though - I'm not sure I'd trust the U.S. government (IDC which side of the political fence you stand btw) to fix me a sandwich right now and now screw it to hades and gone.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> Our shelters are full of pit mixes, lab mixes, and Chihuahua mixes. And farm-type cats. Nothing else. Those same animals are also available for free from Craigslist, FB, and word-of-mouth. It's similar to the mustang issue-- many people that want dogs or horses don't want a pit mix or a mustang, so those animals sit unadopted. Or they don't have the skillset (or facilities) to train a certain type of dog or start a wild horse. Unless you like the challenge, why buy a BLM horse when you can get something that's trained for a similar amount? Or if you want to train it yourself, you pick up a papered two y.o. who leads, ties, clips, loads, and has some resale value to start instead? Or one of the 'free or he goes to the sale on Sunday' weanlings or yearlings that show up on CL by the dozen every fall? Why get a pit or a lab from a shelter with no history, when you can get one from the guy down the block for free? That's if pits are even allowed in your area or on your insurance anymore, which is a 'whole 'nuther ball 'o wax.....



True, but dog pounds have a final solution, to those dogs and cats not adopted. How many are gased every month at pounds? I don't see a huge protest, yet the idea of horse slaughter is just something many people completely object to.
I also would never send a horse of mine to slaughter, and I also was pretty hard on my body, making sure every horse we bred and raised, became trained, thus very likely to find good homes, which they did
However, this is a drop in the bucket, far as the number of hroses bred, that often become un wanted, and the reality is, either you have some government regulation on the number of horses bred, or you support that slaughter option, making sure it is done as humanly as possible


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Yes, I think HUMANELY seems to be a key word here that we (amazingly) seem to all agree on. Sadly when you get humans, agencies, and dollars involved, HUMANE flies out the [email protected]^&(#@ window.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

One of the biggest issues is the high-volume horse breeders-- those who breed every mare every year, sell a handful of the best foals, then dump the rest at slaughter. A lot of the 'lauded' breeding programs in years past culled the horses that weren't top-of-the-line--- they might breed 400 foals a year, keep 10 for breeding prospects or to race/show, sell 50 or 75 of the best, and shoot the rest or ship them for dog food so you didn't have to feed them through the winter-- but it wasn't spoken of and most people didn't know about it or didn't care. Animals had to earn their keep, and face it, those old breeding programs produced some really nice horses through the law of averages--- breed a ton, and you'll get some standouts in the bunch. Mares lived outside with minimal care-- maybe hooves trimmed once a year. Stallions were turned out with mare bands. Mares foaled by themselves and lived or died, as did the foals, on what nature intended. A crippled, sick, or old horse was shot. A lot of ranches and breeders still operate this way, but in the past, most rural farms had a horse or two and a nice-looking horse with papers was worth a fair bit. That's not the case anymore. 

There's a local breeder who I would classify in this category. He's got three farms-- one with weanlings, one with yearlings, and one with his saddle horses, show horses, and stallions. He prices his youngsters high, and they've had very little, if any, handling but they're nice and they're bred well. Those who don't sell go to auction in the fall and most of those probably end up at the KB. He makes enough to keep going, and the ones he sells do well in the show ring, roping arena, and what have you, so he still has a market. I bet over the last ten years, this one breeder alone has dumped 500 young, well-bred horses at auction. Multiply that by an entire continent, and you can see the problem.....


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> Another reason reputable rescues have a hard time placing horses--- too many requirements. I looked into adopting an OTTB. I honestly couldn't find one that A.) seemed to have a clue and had good, usable horses that looked like they might stay sound, B.) adopted in our area, or C.) would allow me to adopt. I didn't have the right fence. I don't ride with a trainer. They required a type of feed we can't get here-- explaining that if the horse didn't do well on whatever I was feeding him, we'd experiment until we found something that worked fell on dull ears-- I'm not going to let a horse do poorly, but I also don't think all horses need a zillion supplements and 3 kinds of feed, either. It's like they assume everyone is a freaking idiot who has never had a horse before, and no horse could POSSIBLY survive without blankets, certain brand of feed, supplements, etc. If the horse needs them, fine, but no allowance made for 'if he needs it, we'll do what we need to do'. Throw in that they can visit your premises unannounced and take the horse back for any reason, and it's not worth it. In mentally going over the dozens of people I know with happy, healthy, well-cared for horses of all breeds, not ONE would meet the requirements. That's a lot of good homes you're passing by all the while moaning that nobody wants these nice horses. You can go to an auction with that same amount of money and pick up a horse free and clear.


That's also why I say MOST rescues, 501C3 or not are closet hoarders.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

The article, post, whatever you want to call it strikes me as pretty naive. I'm all for saving horses but it reads like there are no options, and that isn't true.

Of course someone buying a horse for $300 at auction is going to ask $850 or more. They would have to be really bad business people to not realize they can double their money. Private buyers do the exact same thing. I know people who buy $500 horses, put 6 months training on them and sell them for thousands. 

If the rescues want the horse for $300 they need to go to the auctions. The sale barns I'm aware of in Texas where this goes on are well known, open to the public and have a routine schedule. They don't care who buys the horse as long as someone pays. I am pretty sure that rescues do show up to these, so it isn't like they have no choice but to buy from a meat buyer.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Smilie said:


> I found an interesting article on Facebook, titled 'Kill pen rescues, are you really saving alife'\
> 
> Since Facebook links are not allowed, I googled the topic. Basically, it goes into the kill pen scam, where some horses are bought by those meat buyers, never intended to fill their meat quota, but a way to make money, to help buy horses that will go to slaughter, never offered to be rescued
> These horses are sold above meat price.
> ...



Personally, If I ever decided to start a rescue the last place I would obtain a horse from would be the kill buyer. I would personally go to the auctions myself and get one or two that looked like they were worth saving and bring them home. Work on them to give them a chance of a good home and sell them. If they turned out to be lame, crazy, or any other way not adoptable, I would euthanize it, donate the meat to a wild animal sanctuary, and go to the auction for another one.

I think the only way to stop the cycle of what is going on with kill buyers holding horses for ransom is to just bid against them. If you bid a couple of bucks more than what he is going to get off of them for meat then he will pass on that one. The kill buyer is still going to meet his quota. 

Yes, if slaughter houses for horses were opened back up in the U.S. it would make it a little easier on the horses but it still wouldn't be a picnic for them. Cows, pigs, sheep, chickens and other animals that we consume are not exactly treated humanely here either. 

In my ideal world, I would have my own piece of property to where I could raise my own food. Any animal that I ate would be happy until the day it died and wouldn't even know what hit it.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Reading on the Human Society's site, they say that the US law against slaughtering horses did not reduce the number of US horses slaughtered. It just changed where the plant was located and usually with less regulation for the humane treatment of the horses.
> 
> The Human Society goes on to claim that because of the horse's temperament, there is no such thing as a humane way of slaughtering horses. And they go on to mention that individually owned horses often have chemicals given to them that outlaws use for human consumption.
> 
> ...


This is the answer! Since the slaughtering horses in the USA is illegal, I believe it should be illegal to transport them out of the country to slaughter. 

They should be humanely euthanized. 

Those breeders randomly breeding hundreds of horses a year and only selling a few to reputable buyers, would stop the practice if they had to pay to euthanize all those surplus horses. 

Why is responsible breeding such an important issue with dogs, and ignored by the equine world? 

Have a 20yr old that has been the faithful companion to your children and taught all your kids to ride? If you won't take care of him in his senior years, then euthanize the poor thing. Don't send them to the auction. It is a horrible place. 

To all the people on here that know of good horses for sale, would love to get one! All the ones I see advertised are babies, old, or cost thousands of dollars. I just want a average sized, sane, sound, trail horse.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

AnitaAnne said:


> This is the answer! Since the slaughtering horses in the USA is illegal, I believe it should be illegal to transport them out of the country to slaughter.
> 
> They should be humanely euthanized.
> 
> ...


:iagree: My thoughts exactly!

And I also agree on the last paragraph. I come on to this forum and it sounds like people can't give good horses away. Here in my part of Arizona, Craigslist is full of people asking thousands of dollars for average sounding horses. It's like you better have a good $3000 budget for any sort of decent trail horse. And a lot of the horses are like $4500. I don't know if they get those prices or they are just pipe dreams. But everyone seems to be shooting for the stars when they list horses for sale. 

I once found a 16 yr old Fox Trotter broodmare that was broke for trail riding for $500 and I felt like I stole her! (She's in her 20's now and still here, semi-retired). Finding any kind of decent horse here in the $500 price range can be difficult. Maybe an unbroke youngster or a horse in it's 20's. Or a Mustang with no training. But a decent usable trail horse for $500, I felt like I stole her, lol! That's not common at all.

We also have to feed hay all year round, because it's a desert here, even in mountains we don't really have grass. So I think Arizona, next to California, has to have some of the highest horse keeping costs in the country. And horses are still expensive to buy here. :-x Luckily a really awesome mare just came my way so I am no longer in the market. I am happy to be all filled up! :smile: But I really envy those of you with pasture. Feeding hay 365 days of year is expensive. Even just a few months of relief would wonderful. So you have to start feeding hay in the fall? Be glad you aren't in Arizona!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> One of the biggest issues is the high-volume horse breeders-- those who breed every mare every year, sell a handful of the best foals, then dump the rest at slaughter. A lot of the 'lauded' breeding programs in years past culled the horses that weren't top-of-the-line--- they might breed 400 foals a year, keep 10 for breeding prospects or to race/show, sell 50 or 75 of the best, and shoot the rest or ship them for dog food so you didn't have to feed them through the winter-- but it wasn't spoken of and most people didn't know about it or didn't care. Animals had to earn their keep, and face it, those old breeding programs produced some really nice horses through the law of averages--- breed a ton, and you'll get some standouts in the bunch. Mares lived outside with minimal care-- maybe hooves trimmed once a year. Stallions were turned out with mare bands. Mares foaled by themselves and lived or died, as did the foals, on what nature intended. A crippled, sick, or old horse was shot. A lot of ranches and breeders still operate this way, but in the past, most rural farms had a horse or two and a nice-looking horse with papers was worth a fair bit. That's not the case anymore.
> 
> There's a local breeder who I would classify in this category. He's got three farms-- one with weanlings, one with yearlings, and one with his saddle horses, show horses, and stallions. He prices his youngsters high, and they've had very little, if any, handling but they're nice and they're bred well. Those who don't sell go to auction in the fall and most of those probably end up at the KB. He makes enough to keep going, and the ones he sells do well in the show ring, roping arena, and what have you, so he still has a market. I bet over the last ten years, this one breeder alone has dumped 500 young, well-bred horses at auction. Multiply that by an entire continent, and you can see the problem.....


Well, there is the racing industry, that dumps endless number of horses that either never were successful on the track, or became no longer competitive.
At least the TB industry helps fund life after the track for OTTBs, but nothing like that exists for Standardbeds .for instance, when the Standardbred tracks in Ontario were closed down, many Standardbred went to slaughter
The PMU industry helped to flood the hrose market for years, breeding horses according to urine quota and not in demand for those foals, as they were just by products
Part of the problem stems from horses falling between livestock and a luxury item, as no cattle rancher breeds cows beyond market demand for long, with money often fueled by an outside income


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> :iagree: My thoughts exactly!
> 
> And I also agree on the last paragraph. I come on to this forum and it sounds like people can't give good horses away. Here in my part of Arizona, Craigslist is full of people asking thousands of dollars for average sounding horses. It's like you better have a good $3000 budget for any sort of decent trail horse. And a lot of the horses are like $4500. I don't know if they get those prices or they are just pipe dreams. But everyone seems to be shooting for the stars when they list horses for sale.
> 
> ...



Talking as a breeder, when you raise ahorse for three years, not to mention, fed that broodmare before that foal was even born, then start that young horse under saddle, you better believe that horse should be worth at least 3,000, and that means you are doing it just for 'fun', paying yourself nothing for those training hours. You are just breaking even
We sold young started three year olds in that price range, no problem,, and if someone was not willing to pay a decent price for a horse that was raised correctly, had all the regular routine care, was well started under saddle, then the auction mart was the place for them to find a horse and take their chance.
What do you think it costs to raise a horse until he is three, start him under saddle, give him some trail miles?????
Everyone of my faithful horses got to live their life out here, and were put down when the time came, by avet. This is common practice for many of us here, but it has very little
little impact on total number of horses going to slaughter, culled from where a horse business is run like any other business, and not on sentiment


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> This is the answer! Since the slaughtering horses in the USA is illegal, I believe it should be illegal to transport them out of the country to slaughter.
> 
> They should be humanely euthanized.
> 
> ...


Responsible breeding of dogs??? 


Give me a break! Puppy mills abound.Pounds are full of dogs that are not adopted, thus put down
MUch easier to put dogs and cats down an mass, then horses.It is also afact that there is acceptance in many first world countries to eat horse meat, while we are not quite at the point to send cats ans downs not adopted, to those countries that do consume cat and dog meat (Koera )
So, no dog slaughter per say, but certainly many dogs being put down, along with cats
Perhaps if they were sent for meat, public awareness would increase
So far I have not woke up to find ahorse someone has dropped off, but sure have found many cats that way, and some dogs, over the years


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Smilie said:


> Talking as a breeder, when you raise ahorse for three years, not to mention, fed that broodmare before that foal was even born, then start that young horse under saddle, you better believe that horse should be worth at least 3,000, and that means you are doing it just for 'fun', paying yourself nothing for those training hours. You are just breaking even
> We sold young started three year olds in that price range, no problem,, and if someone was not willing to pay a decent price for a horse that was raised correctly, had all the regular routine care, was well started under saddle, then the auction mart was the place for them to find a horse and take their chance.
> What do you think it costs to raise a horse until he is three, start him under saddle, give him some trail miles?????
> Everyone of my faithful horses got to live their life out here, and were put down when the time came, by avet. This is common practice for many of us here, but it has very little
> little impact on total number of horses going to slaughter, culled from where a horse business is run like any other business, and not on sentiment


Oh, I know it costs a lot to raise a horse! My $500 mare gave birth to a foal (she came pregnant, I didn't breed her) and I don't even know how much money I have in him by now at age 7. I have $2000 in not even 3 months of training. (That barely got him rideable.) And all the vet bills over the years, and hay 365 days a year. I don't even want to know. And he's still not a super experienced or well trained trail horse. I definitely could have gone out and bought one cheaper. But he's my horse, he was born here, and I love him.

The point of my talking about the prices was that on this forum people talk like folks are practically giving horses away and you can't even sell one for $500. And that if that if you do, it is only the kill buyer that is in the market for it. Because there is such a glut. That is what I was commenting on. We don't seem to have a severe horse glut in this area. People are asking a lot of money for some ho-hum horses.

Unless you are a very skilled breeder with just the right niche, I don't think most people are going to get out of their horses what the put into them. I think most people have them just because they enjoy having them. Horses are pretty much a money pit. Which goes back to why racehorses that aren't fast enough and show horses that don't make the cut get dumped I suppose. But most people will never get out of their horses what they put into them. That isn't why they have horses anyway. I'm not trying to make money on horses at all. If I were, I would sell them off quick as they are a hopeless money pit. I just love trail riding out in nature. To me, they are companion animals.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

By the way Smilie, $3000 would be a very fair price for a well-started 3 yr old. A person would be very lucky to find a nicely started, young, sound horse for $3000. 

I once bought a BLM Mustang for $2000. When I went to look at him I thought the price was a bit high. Because you can get a BLM Mustang for $125, right? All these Mustangs needing homes that we hear so much about? But what I didn't take into account was what a wonderfully trained horse he was. And his wonderful temperment. He was the best horse I ever rode. Never outclassed, no matter who I rode with. Now that he's gone (he died of colic) I would give anything to find a horse like him at the bargain basement price of $2000. You just can't put a price on a horse that takes care of you. A horse like that is priceless. The hard part is recognizing that horse when you find it.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> Responsible breeding of dogs???
> 
> 
> Give me a break! Puppy mills abound.Pounds are full of dogs that are not adopted, thus put down
> ...


Let me rephrase my statement...that was too vague. 

I meant, there is a huge amount of public awareness and legislative action focused on responsible dog breeding. Not so much with horses, they get very little protection under the law. 

I totally agree, there is much irresponsible breeding of dogs, and many more dogs than the market can absorb. But there is continuing pressure on those folks, and laws are increasingly restrictive. 

You are absolutely right, we don't ship cats and dogs to other countries just because they use them for food. We need to stop doing it with our horses too.

The slaughter houses were stopped, and that was supposed to stop all the slaughter of horses, but it didn't. There is still much work to be done to stop the slaughter. 

You state that is costs you 3K minimum to raise and train a horse. I wouldn't have a problem paying that for a sound, well trained horse. But that's not what is selling. The horses I see advertised are that price and more and not sound or not sane or old. 

I just don't understand why someone would offer a 15 yr old for 6K, then when the horse doesn't sell, send them to auction where they sell for what? 500 bucks? Where is the sense in that? 

Saw a website offering "gentle horses" for 10K and up! This is a dealer that admittedly only has the horses for a month of training before putting them up for sale. A month of training maximum. Crazy.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

*Anita Ann* very well put. But as long as horses are considered "just livestock" the regulations will be different.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Blue said:


> But as long as horses are considered "just livestock" the regulations will be different.


 
That's because horses ARE livestock, and that designation needs to remain in place. 


They're not dogs or cats, they're more difficult to rehome, they cost a heck of a lot more to feed, house, and take care of medically, and they live a heck of a lot longer than Fluffy or Spot. There simply is no comparison, and I'll fight tooth and nail to make sure that horses *stay* designated as livestock.


The processing and eating of horsemeat in the US is not, nor ever has been illegal, except in a few states that only recently put those rules in place. The thing that crippled the US industry was the fact that the *sale* of horse meat to the public was banned because all the USDA inspectors were pulled from the plants. If you have no USDA inspectors, you can't sell your product to anyone. 


You absolutely *can* have your own horses butchered, and as long as you don't sell the meat, you can share it with as many people as you like.


Really people, if you're going to be against slaughter, at least separate fantasy from the actual facts. 


Not everyone regards horses as big dogs, and eating them is no more horrific than eating beef, bacon or lamb.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

*Speed Racer* I think I stated in my earlier post that I was never against slaughter in and of itself. I'm against the CURRENT procedures. I never said that horses weren't livestock. But, even livestock deserves a little respect and compassion.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Have to disagree with you @Speed Racer Horses are not "livestock like cows or sheep or (whatever). They are in a special category all their own. 

Ways they are different: 

1 - Horse feed, like dog and cat food is taxed. Livestock feed; cows, chickens, etc is not taxed.
2 - owners of horse property can be made to give up their animals by zoning changes, because they are considered a luxury animal, not a livelihood like cattle. 
3 - Horse businesses have 7 years to make a profit while other businesses have only three years to make a profit (before regarded as a hobby, not business) 
4 - horses have numerous sports dedicated solely to their use including up to the Olympic level. The only animal similar to that is dogs. 
5 - like dogs and cats, horses are not sold in stores for human consumption. 

So I respectfully disagree, horses are NOT livestock like any other livestock. The cost of feeding and providing for an animal is in no way relevant to how they are classified (in this country). 

If a person can not afford to maintain a horse throughout the year, they have no business acquiring a horse. People that say they are selling their horse(s) because of the cost of feeding them through the winter should never be allowed to own a horse. That is cold and heartless. 

We all have the right to our own opinions, and if sharing these ideas on here helps people think and act responsibly, then that is a good thing.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

PS - as far as living a long time, I do believe the large birds, such as parrots, win the title of longest living pets. 80-100 year lifespan. Responsible owners specify in their wills how the bird is to be maintained should the owner pass first. 

Really horses lifespans are short in comparison to a parrot or a macaw, or how about a tortoise? Those are not considered livestock either...


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Regardless of how you _personally_ feel, horses are livestock. That designation needs to remain. You can post all the, 'Yeah, but....' arguments you want, but the fact remains they _are_ livestock and need to remain in that category. They're large herbivores that we use for a variety of purposes, and one of those purposes is food. 


Not sure how or why macaws or tortoises are being discussed, as one is a fowl and the other a reptile. Their requirements for health and longevity are much, much different than a horse's, whose feeding and care are almost identical to other livestock, like cattle. Again, like dogs and cats, lifestyle and cost are simply not comparable.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

speed racer said:


> different than a horse's, whose feeding and care are almost identical to other livestock, like cattle.


"almost"


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Speed Racer said:


> Regardless of how you _personally_ feel, horses are livestock. That designation needs to remain. You can post all the, 'Yeah, but....' arguments you want, but the fact remains they _are_ livestock and need to remain in that category. They're large herbivores that we use for a variety of purposes, and one of those purposes is food.
> 
> 
> Not sure how or why macaws or tortoises are being discussed, as one is a fowl and the other a reptile. Their requirements for health and longevity are much, much different than a horse's, whose feeding and care are almost identical to other livestock, like cattle. Again, like dogs and cats, comparisons in lifestyle and cost are not comparable.


You mentioned that "horses live a lot longer than Fluffy" which was a comparison to another animal. That is why I brought up birds and a reptile. You are correct, comparing the longevity of those species or "Fluffy" is not a valid argument_ for or against _a livestock designation. 

Horses cannot digest the same food as cattle. They cannot regurgitate and they do not chew their cud. They are as similar to cattle as they are to a cat. 

Are you aware that many treatments used on humans are first used on horses or cats? Our bodies our actually more similar to horses and cats than most other animals. 

Most people in this country (thank God) do not eat horses or dogs, or cats, and I hope to one day be able to proudly say that no one in the USA eats any of those. Eventually I would like that to be true worldwide. Have you seen the containers dogs are placed in to sell in those markets where they are raised for food? Piled up like laundry in a basket? Horrible. 

We will have to agree to disagree. Horses are not like any other kind of livestock and IMO need to be classified as pets or have their own unique classification. 

Just out of curiosity; why are you so adamant that horse be treated no different than cattle/livestock? Is your reasoning financial? Political? Religious? 

I am just curious, so if you choose not to answer, that is of course your right.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

I don't pay tax on horse feed. Never have no matter the state I was in. I think there are supplements that are taxed and anything else that goes with them (grooming supplies, tack) is taxed but not feed.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Arizona just stopped taxing cattle feed recently. Hay is not taxed whether for horses or cattle. I suppose it would be unenforceable if only for cattle. Haven't noticed if the horse supplements are taxed or not.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Yes, all supplements are still taxed as considered not necessary for ranching. However, the salts, and "regular" feed in any form, whether pellet or cube, is now untaxed.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hondo said:


> Arizona just stopped taxing cattle feed recently. Hay is not taxed whether for horses or cattle. I suppose it would be unenforceable if only for cattle. Haven't noticed if the horse supplements are taxed or not.


I only discovered recently (maybe the past 6 months to a year) that hay is not taxed. Do you know when that actually took place? Because I always had to pay tax on hay, for about the last 20 years. The first time I went to Tractor Supply and bought hay and there was no tax, I thought the cashier made a mistake! I *had* been buying from Ace Hardware, and had always been taxed. As far as I know, they are still charging tax. I wonder how long I have been cheated by Ace Hardware, the scoundrels! 

It seems to me this was a recent change........no tax on hay. I swear it seems I've always had to pay tax on hay, until maybe the past year or so.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

*trailhorserider* it was very recent. Like within this year. I work at TSC and had to do a double take the first time the feed rang up untaxed. 

Bringing up Ace hardware is an interesting point. I don't know if they tax or not? TSC is classed as agricultural and I'm pretty sure Ace is not. IF they're still taxing it that may be one of the reasons. 

Now I'm curious and will look into it. May I ask what part of Az you're in? We have 2 Ace hardwares in the Verde Valley and I don't remember seeing feed of any kind at either of them.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I "think" it started Jan 1 this year. As I recall which is always subject to error. Pretty nice on the hay and pellets. I didn't really pay any attention to the other stuff.

Food for humans is not taxed and I "think-again" that the idea was that the hay was basically food for humans...eventually.

Surprised about ACE having hay. TSC at Prescott and Prescott Valley neither one have hay. At least I "think" I've asked.

I buy at Maughan's in Yarnell or Olsen's in Prescot. In the winter I buy at D & D in Wickenburg when I go there. Good hay and good prices.

There's so much grass right now that the ponies just get a little hay for orderves so they don't forget I have food.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Here in OK you have to qualify for an Ag Tax Exempt card every 4 years. You take your card to the local stores and they put it on file and when you buy ANYTHING that is Ag Qualified, you pay no tax. Feed, fencing, weed killers, bug sprays, medicines, supplements, building material, you name it. Dog & Cat food, though we all consider them as part of the farm, are considered pets and you pay tax on their stuff. We also have 'Farm Truck' vehicle registrations for $35.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

*Dreamcatcher*, we have that here too. Few of our customers take advantage of it though. We have some that have a straight tax exempt license and many more would qualify for the "ag tax" but don't take the time to fill out the paperwork I guess. The tax free feeds are for anyone here now. Many have cattle, pigs, chickens etc. so no tax on "livestock and farm animal feed" but they still pay tax on fencing and general supplies.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Blue and Hondo,

I am in the White Mountains, near Show Low. All the Ace Hardwares in this area (that I am aware of) have hay. Heber and Show Low for sure Ace Hardware for sure. 

Ace is high priced anyway. The only reason I was buying there was they kept sending me coupons. Tractor Supply is cheaper and I've found their hay is nicer too. I also buy some hay from a local guy, but he only carries alfalfa and I like to feed both alfalfa and bermuda.

Last time I called Ace looking for bermuda they were still charging tax. So if I'm paying .50-$1.00 more per bale AND sales tax, the coupons are worthless!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

I'm just in awe that you can buy hay in commercial stores. It's only available in our region from private sellers. No feed stores, hardware stores, etc. sell hay unless it's bagged alfalfa pellets, and that usually has to be special-ordered.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Here all human food is taxed too @ 10%! 

I have occasionally bought hay from TSC and it was taxed. Last time I bought it was before Christmas, so don't know if that has changed. 

The square bales at TSC were nice the first year, but now are at least a foot smaller than they used to be, so not a deal at $8/bale. The round bales were $65/bale and so tiny they rolled in the back of my truck. But with the drought last year, I had to buy hay wherever I could. 

Mostly I buy hay straight from farms so no tax. Our ACE hardware doesn't carry hay that I'm aware of, but the two local feed stores do. Their hay is poor quality though, mine wouldn't even eat it. Best for construction.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

SilverMaple said:


> I'm just in awe that you can buy hay in commercial stores. It's only available in our region from private sellers. No feed stores, hardware stores, etc. sell hay unless it's bagged alfalfa pellets, and that usually has to be special-ordered.


It's probably because hardly anyone grows it locally. It's all trucked in from the Phoenix area or southern Arizona. Or Colorado. Hay runs about $16 for 100 lb bales. Usually alfalfa is the cheapest and bermuda is about $1 a bale more. Nobody sells round bales. They are either 100 lb, 3 string bales or the tiny 2 string bales from Colorado (that I don't buy because they are like $14 for 55 lbs). 

So yeah, it's probably a sign that nobody grows hay. Well, once I bought some from a town about 20 miles away that was grown locally but it wasn't any cheaper than the trucked-in stuff. We just aren't in a good hay growing area. We aren't in a good area for pasture. It's just a desert here, even when you are in the mountains. It looks greener and we have trees, but we don't get enough rain to sustain anything. Hay grown in other parts of the state are irrigated or nothing would grow at all. Arizona just sucks for feeding horses (in my opinion anyway).


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> Let me rephrase my statement...that was too vague.
> 
> I meant, there is a huge amount of public awareness and legislative action focused on responsible dog breeding. Not so much with horses, they get very little protection under the law.
> 
> ...



Off topic a bit, but lets get back to slaughter. No, we don't send dogs and cats to countries where their meat is consumed, for two main reasons
"we' ourselves don't eat the meat of those animals in First World countries, thus don't look at those pets as a source of meat export
Many First world countries have total acceptance of eating hrose meat,like Europe
Second, it costs way more to put one horse down then a number of dogs and cats.
Dogs and cats, that are un wanted, are put down, so does it matter that their meat is consumed or not? Is it not better to send horse meat where it is eaten, versus just letting that meat rot? Dead is dead.
You also can not ban slaughter, without also putting some control on production. The banning of slaughter, without breeding rules, was not a win situation for the horse.It was put through by un informed bleeding hearts, who never concerned themselves as to what then happened to those un wanted horses]
Meanwhile, informed and educated horse industry people, such as vets, supported slaughter, with the recommendation that any activist action should be in support of humane slaughter and transport

Far as horses always just being a luxury, not true. There are some examples where horse breeding is a successful business, like any other business, and without outside funds, supporting it.
The Ulkes, for instance, raised Appaloosas for many years, never showing any themselves, earning their living completely from the sale of their foal crops Bob Avila is another example.
What makes these people stand out, is hard work. Very easy to put some mares and a stud together, well bred, and then hope to make a living, solely off the demand of those offspring, and a garden path many follow, getting into horses and then almost as quickly, out again, once reality sets in

Prospects are a dime a dozen, and why I spent time learning to train and show the horses I raised. This does take some toll on the body over the years,has you riding young horses even when you don;t feel like it, after dark, or when it is 20 below C, and on iffy footing at times.
My horses paid for themselves, built the barn , bought my horse trailer, and helped with the total farm income


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

No, I don't think it is better to have the meat eaten. I think horses should be euthanized and buried just like any other pet. 

You state that it costs more to put down a horse than it does a small animal. That may be true, but it costs more to keep a horse than a dog, so the higher cost of euthanasia should be expected and planned for. 

The last horse I had to have put down (in 2012) cost $350 *including burial*. He was a 16H 1300lb Percheron Arab cross that I had owned since he was 3.5 yrs old. I was the first person to ride him, and the last. 

$350 is not very expensive IMO. 

It cost $150 for the backhoe to bury my Boxer dog in 2015 and that is not including the Euthanasia cost (which I don't remember and don't have a record of).


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> No, I don't think it is better to have the meat eaten. I think horses should be euthanized and buried just like any other pet.
> 
> You state that it costs more to put down a horse than it does a small animal. That may be true, but it costs more to keep a horse than a dog, so the higher cost of euthanasia should be expected and planned for.
> 
> ...


To be clear, I have my own horses put down and buried, as do many other hrose people, but we are not talking of our personal faithful friends, but the many un wanted horses. Who is going to foot the bill to have them all put down and buried, and , buried where?
I know exactly what it costs to have ahorse put down, as I have done so more then 5 times over the years. I, like you, have no problem paying to have a beloved horse put down, and mY Einstein and my old reining mare, both rest in my one back pasture
So, lets get back on topic, and that is the final solution for the number of un wanted horses. Rescues can't take them all.
Not sure if dogs and cats are put down alone, by pounds, or in larger lots, but am quite sure that the task of putting down and cremating the number of horses, equal to the number of cats and dogs, poses not just a larger cost, but logistics


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

Horses are livestock. I do not pay tax on hay. I do not purchase from a feed store. 
If you purchase horse supplements they are taxed. Plain oats etc should not be taxed. Horses can be classified one way by the state , and one way by the Fed Gov.

You cannot legally bury a horse in California on your own property.Well not where I live. It is expensive here to have horses but I can usually get a years worth of hay for around 6 grand . I feed 8 horses a pony and sheep. I can also irrigate my pastures but the cost of ag water has increased. 

Euthanasia will run 450 and up . Carcasses can be put at the dump, but it cost now . I forget what the removal company told me they had to pay .


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> To be clear, I have my own horses put down and buried, as do many other hrose people, but we are not talking of our personal faithful friends, but the many un wanted horses. Who is going to foot the bill to have them all put down and buried, and , buried where?
> I know exactly what it costs to have ahorse put down, as I have done so more then 5 times over the years. I, like you, have no problem paying to have a beloved horse put down, and mY Einstein and my old reining mare, both rest in my one back pasture
> So, lets get back on topic, and that is the final solution for the number of un wanted horses. Rescues can't take them all.
> Not sure if dogs and cats are put down alone, by pounds, or in larger lots, but am quite sure that the task of putting down and cremating the number of horses, equal to the number of cats and dogs, poses not just a larger cost, but logistics


Should be the owners responsibility, at some point the horses had/have an owner. Vets need to be proactive about offering euthanasia - by that I mean it should be a part of the education given by vets at some point. 

Rescues need to operate more like shelters do and put down those without hope of a good future. 

In this area, if the owner does not want to take home their dog/cat, whatever; the vet sends them to a cremation facility. 

The equine/large animal vets, however, bury the horses in a pasture. 

There used to be a cremation facility in Georgia for horses, don't know if it is still open though. That would be a good option.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

stevenson said:


> You cannot legally bury a horse in California on your own property.Well not where I live.
> .


This needs to change. Can you bury dogs & cats? What happens to a sheep that passes? 



stevenson said:


> Euthanasia will run 450 and up . Carcasses can be put at the dump, but it cost now . I forget what the removal company told me they had to pay .


There is no good reason to send a horse to the dump.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> How does anyone sell a horse they've owned for 18 years? Heartless and cruel.


Ouch.

Guess my family is heartless and cruel for selling an 18-year-old mare who was born on our farm to a family with 6 kids who were looking for a nice family horse the kids could enjoy. Seemed like a much better alternative than her getting fat in the pasture which she had done for the prior 5 years. She couldn't "perform" anymore due to an injury to a hind leg, but was perfectly happy to pack a ride out on the trail.

:icon_rolleyes:

Just because the horse is old, does not mean they still don't have a life ahead of them and plenty of use left.

And when I say "sold", I mean we took $100 to make the sale official. We pretty much gave her away. 

Just because you buy a horse, does not mean you are now OBLIGATED to keep that horse forever, and you are a rotten horse owner if you don't.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> The equine/large animal vets, however, bury the horses in a pasture.


No, not all of them do. I'm pretty sure our vet clinic in town takes them to the dump.

And there are laws in lots of places that will NOT let you bury a dead animal on your own property.



AnitaAnne said:


> There is no good reason to send a horse to the dump.


Why? It's dead. 

Maybe I have a different mentality from growing up on the farm with cattle. We literally have a "dead cow pile" about a mile from the farm, and that's what we call it. Cows die. Calves die. We do all we can to avoid that, but things happen. The coyotes run off with most of it. 

With that said, when we put my old guy down about 5 years ago, we didn't put him on the dead cow pile. My dad buried him somewhere with the payloader. I didn't ask him where and he didn't tell me. But I know he had to put some round bales on top of the site b/c the coyotes were trying to dig him up. :icon_rolleyes:

But honestly, if someone chose to take their horse remains to the dump, I guess I don't see anything wrong with that. They did the humane thing by putting the horse down -- what they want to do with the carcass is up to them.


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

I think there is a difference between selling an 18 yo horse to a loving family and putting an 18 yo horse through an auction. 

There are many different scenarios out there. 

This is a really tough subject - there are far too many horses for the amount of people wanting/willing to buy them. Plus they ARE expensive - and I'd rather see an animal be put down than live a life of neglect b/c the owners don't know any better. 

As much as the slaughter of horses bothers me, there is a demand for it. My biggest concern is the transport of the horses, as well as the care of them prior to slaughter. If there was another solution I would be all for it, but it is not feasible to euthanize and bury every unwanted horse out there. 

As for dogs & cats - if you go to the vet to have them put down, they usually put a whole bunch of them in the incinerator at once. That is why it costs so much more if you wish to keep your pets' ashes.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

AnitaAnne said:


> The equine/large animal vets, however, bury the horses in a pasture.


 
_None_ of the vets I've dealt with over the last 40 years 'bury the horses in a pasture'. No vet has acres upon acres of land to bury other people's horses. 


There are also laws against burying large carcasses in some areas. Plus, even if you're legally allowed to bury in your area, if you use euthanasia drugs instead of a bolt gun or bullet too many contaminated carcasses will affect not only the animal and plant life, but the ground water as well.


There's a lot more to consider than just digging a hole and shoving the animal in it.



AnitaAnne said:


> There used to be a cremation facility in Georgia for horses, don't know if it is still open though. That would be a good option.


 
Cremation is gawd awful expensive for a large animal like a horse, and someone who is barely making it financially isn't going to be able to afford it. Cremation is a _luxury_ option.


Honestly, all your arguments give me the impression that you haven't a clue about the legalities and realities of disposing of a large animal carcass, and you need to stop comparing their euthing and disposal to dogs and cats.


Equine slaughter is an absolutely viable option for unwanted horses. If you don't want them traveling all those miles and going outside the US to meet their demise, then reopening the slaughter plants here is the best solution.


As far as someone being an awful human being for selling an 18+ y/o horse, if it weren't for that 'awful owner' I wouldn't have my current riding horse. She's 23, and I bought her at 21. There's nothing wrong with selling a useable, older, been there - done that horse. There is definitely a market for those older gems. What there isn't a market for is the old, broken down, or over 20 untrained pasture pet.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Costs for disposing of horses are high. Euthanasia is $250 - $500 depending on the size of the horse and whether it's an emergency or scheduled call.

Disposal of the horse is even higher-- IF you live somewhere where it's legal to bury a horse (and in much of the country, it's illegal) you're either looking at a few long days with a shovel or hiring someone with a backhoe for $500. More if it's winter and the ground is frozen.

Or you pay the rendering truck to come get the animal. Again, expensive, and if it's not sitting at the end of your driveway by the road, charges go up astronomically, so for this option, you either need to euthanize or shoot the animal right next to the road, or have access to a tractor to get it up there. 

Horses can't go to the dump here. It's also illegal to bury them because they are classified as livestock, and there is a law against it to keep the cattle and hog producers from burying large amounts of animals and polluting the groundwater. So if you can do it surreptitiously, nobody is going to care about you burying one horse, but you'd better have a backhoe operator who will keep quiet, and shoot the horse yourself or most vet clinics will call the rendering truck for you (also required in some areas). If you have a vet who will put the horse down next to the hole you dug 'for burying farm junk' you're blessed. 

Figure $500 per animal minimum for euthanasia/bullet/burial/hauling. "Just euthanize and bury all the unwanted horses" isn't as simple as it sounds.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

The last horse I euthanized cost me almost $1000 because first I had to figure out if what was wrong was something I wanted to or could treat. So that part of the bill, plus emergency charges (late and weekend), and the bill ended up close to $1000. Had I taken her in and just said, "Nope, just euth her.", it would have been more like about $200. I don't want a horse buried here, the carcass would attract coyotes and such and I don't want to put my other animals, chickens, dogs, cats at risk. If a horse died on the property, then I would call a hauler to come take the carcass to the landfill. My belief is that when we're dead, we're done. The spirit or soul departs the body and leaves nothing behind except just flesh & bone. I see no reason not to send that to the landfill, it's not the horse I knew. I prefer to take the animal to OSU and let them know that they have permission to do a necropsy or use the body in any way the like for the vet students, once the horse is dead. I don't allow experiments when they are live.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Here you pay you can have several options depending on where you live. IF your property is in an area where it is allowed then you can bury on property for which you will incur the vet call cost, cost to euth and the cost of digging, perhaps dragging or hauling (time basically) if the animal and hole are some distance apart and refilling. Last one cost us close to $3,000. Yes there are 3 zeros. Not only did we end up paying for the above but her head had to be sent off as the vet suspected rabies. Add shipping plus lab fees. When it wasn't because this was the second horse we had die under the same circumstances we had other labs run that didn't amount to anything except some guesses on everyone's part. The horse prior was $450 for the vet and $300 for the equipment. We were lucky and a close friend had equipment on a site nearby that he could just drive over so no hauling fees (equipment) - just his time. The one before that same for the vet and $500 for the equipment to be brought out and time. One we buried ourselves when it was going to take days before the guy could come out with equipment. We have a good size tractor and auger that we were able to use to soften the soil and a bucket to create a slope. It took us a full day and then some not to mention the pain (blisters) and heartache of having her laying there while we worked. The one before that my husband decided he would do the backfill to save some $$$ and the ground was so soft and crumbly he ended up in the hole with the tractor. SO we had to add the cost of someone to remove the tractor, tractor repairs and the ER fees for my husband who was injured. That was also heartbreaking to watch for oh so many reasons. We've lived here 20 years and will likely be here many more so we'll have others to bury. If I could feel like DC I would just call the alligator farm or the zoo. They pick up and butcher for their animals. No charge. BUT I would have to shoot them. No drugs allowed.

These were beloved family animals. I'll repeat from a prior post above - what happens to all of the animals that are just abandoned or sent to auction or if there weren't processors that would take them? You can't get around the laws. You can't just leave them out in the open and cremating them is expensive. Who bears the cost on that one. You and me and everyone else that pays taxes as it gets passed on to us. 

I'll add around here many of the rescues do put down. They can't afford to keep anything that is not rideable or driveable. Those are the ones they can usually find homes for (if you can get past all of their stringent requirements and afford their fees). The pasture pets are given some time but they don't keep them indefinitely and those that aren't pasture sound are put down. What many don't understand is that our No Kill shelter puts down anything that is not rehomeable. If it is too sick, injured, aggressive it is considered unfit and it is euthed. NoKill is only for those animals that can be adopted or fostered out.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I think what AnitaAnne was referring to about selling an older horse was not finding them a lovely home with children but selling them at a noisy confusing auction where there's a good chance they will end up on the kill truck. I don't think she was saying its cruel to send an older horse to a more appropriate home. 

We are very fortunate here where I live. No one has gotten around to legislating where we can bury on our own property. I think it may be because most people that live here have been for generations and are mindful of the ground water, river, wells and everything else. We're fortunate that we have a backhoe for work. So when a large animal needs to be buried the hole is dug by us and very deep. In fact the first horse I had to put down here the new vet came out and we lead the gelding out to the end of the pasture by the hole. Vet looked down in the hole and said "$(*! He know how to dig a hole doesn't he!" No predator problems for us. 

However, we are forced to be very selective about the ones we want buried here and the ones we are willing to pay a service to haul away. My personal horses and pets get buried but the rest have to go. It's just plain logistics. Not that I don't care, but I care about the health of my other animals and my family. Even when the service hauls to the landfill I have to sign a paper stating drugs or not as the drugged animals are burned and the others are buried. And there is an additional fee for the drugged animals. But, it's only fair. 

There is an Out of Africa wildlife zoo here that takes in horses. They hold them for about 30 days. Pampered and loved on, but no pain meds or anything. Then a bullet and it helps feed the big cats. However, there is a long waiting list. Anytime I had to do this I didn't have the luxury of waiting and I'm not willing to "schedule 6 months out".

It's a very complicated issue. There are no easy answers that will cover everything.

I agree that if the slaughter houses would open back up here in the US it would be possible to oversee a more humane procedure. But, lets face it. There are people in this world that search for a job like this because they LIKE to see an animal scared and suffering. Not all of them mind you, but some none the less. And anytime you have two or more people involved there is the opportunity for bribes and graft. Not everyone cares about the feelings or misery of the horse, or any other animal for that matter. 

But I still agree it would be an improvement over the current situation. And many will bash me for this, but think of all the people that could be fed. Homeless shelters, prisons and jails, senior homes, the military, school lunches could be greatly improved nutritionally for a fraction of the cost of beef or chicken. It's not a pleasant subject, but its the procedure that is so horrifying right now.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

It's pretty common around here for horse owners to dig a deep hole or two in the fall before the ground freezes and cover it up with plywood 'just in case.' If you don't need it, great. If you do, it's a lot easier than digging or trying to find someone to dig a hole in frozen ground at short notice. 

Slaughter for US human consumption might be feasible for, say, mustangs that have been in a holding pen and not medicated for a documented period of time, but most horses have been given some sort of medication/dewormer that makes them unfit for human consumption, so unless those same horses are kept in a feedlot for 3-6 months, they won't be entering the commercial food chain even if it was seen as a viable option for meat. So then, we have the ethical dilemma of keeping old, suffering horses alive for months to let drugs clear their systems or only using young, healthy horses. And even if that happens (which it won't) there still isn't a viable option for old, lame, sick animals.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> It's pretty common around here for horse owners to dig a deep hole or two in the fall before the ground freezes and cover it up with plywood 'just in case.' If you don't need it, great. If you do, it's a lot easier than digging or trying to find someone to dig a hole in frozen ground at short notice.
> 
> .


This is a smart idea!! Good planning. 

Here the ground never freezes, and we get a snowfall or maybe even two (!) every couple of years. 

Several of the large animal vets here have large property. One has sheep, one has cattle, and one has cattle and some Haffies that are trained to drive. The last one buries all the cats, dogs, goats, horses, whatever on his property. He doesn't send them out. 

The (exclusively) equine vet here buries the horses in a farmers field that he has an agreement with. 

I will have to plan ahead for my 28yr old and my 22yr old, because my property is on the side of a mountain and don't believe a big enough hole could be dug in all the rock.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I do appreciate that most of the posters on here are trying to find solutions to the problem. Most are polite and respectful of others opinions, which is a blessing especially considering what a volatile topic this can become.

I do believe that it is our duty to treat all God's creatures with dignity and respect. 

Would be interested in forming a list of all the states or countries that have (or don't have) legislation addressing these issues.

Will start by saying in *Alabama*, horses can be buried and it doesn't matter if the horse is humanely euthanized by a vet or a bullet used by the owner. 

Will state that I have never met anyone here that *hasn't buried *a horse (that had to be pts or that died of old age). It is the accepted means. 

In *Alabama*, large animal vets, while reluctant to pts a horse, will do so if it is in the animals best interest. Most if not all will bury them if pts at their facility. If pts on the owner's farm, the owner usually has the hole already prepared. 

I cannot speak for other locations, only my own, but I do believe Georgia is the same.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I will say, of all the options already listed, the least objectionable to me would be the option of feed for Zoo animals if put down without trauma, _not at a slaughter house_. 

However, I do believe that the equine community could greatly reduce the number of unwanted horse if we were to eliminate those sports/contests which ruin the horse for another career. 

I refer to things like bucking stock. Where do all those un-rideable horses go? Straight to slaughter when their careers are over? Not such a nice life...


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

AnitaAnne said:


> I refer to things like bucking stock. Where do all those un-rideable horses go? Straight to slaughter when their careers are over? Not such a nice life...


Good bucking stock, owned by stock producers for rodeos go to pasture. Large pastures most people can't even imagine. And where do you think they come from. Some from selective breeding. Most were "ruined" by people before the stock contractor gets them and they are treated like royalty!

I put down my own. I shoot them. I do not miss. 

I don't like chemical euthanasia because the residual toxins poison the soil and anything that may eat the carcass. I also do not like the drawn out suffering. My horses deserve a quick end. Not a doped up confusing event.

I also do not bury. I could, but don't. I live in pretty close unison with natural things. Predators and herbivores, hooved (deer, elk) and crawling (badgers, coyotes, etc). My dead livestock continues in the "circle." Personally, I won't have a vault for my own casket. I, too, will continue in the circle. 

To the topic: I have no problem with slaughter of horses for human consumption or to feed other animals. There are many things worse than that.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> I will say, of all the options already listed, the least objectionable to me would be the option of feed for Zoo animals if put down without trauma, _not at a slaughter house_.
> 
> However, I do believe that the equine community could greatly reduce the number of unwanted horse if we were to eliminate those sports/contests which ruin the horse for another career.
> 
> ...


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## k9kenai (Jul 1, 2017)

The laws vary in New Mexico based on zoning regulations. In rural areas, as long as you are outside of city limits and not in an HOA and it is your property (i.e. not renting or leasing the land) then you are free to bury the animal. All of our equine vets here offer the option of humane euthanasia either at your home or at their clinics. Those in the areas where you are allowed to bury the animals may also shoot them if they wish. We also have a crematorium that can cremate the horses and either dump the ashes or send them back to the owners (for a fee, of course). We, too, have rendering plants contracted throughout the state that can collect the animals. Most people around my area are willing to lend a hand and equipment for free to help bury large animals so that is the option most often selected in my small town for those that have the land.

As for those in city limits or residential areas, it is illegal to bury animals on your property and it is illegal to shoot them or dispose of them yourself. You must have a licensed veterinarian do it via humane euthanasia. Owners have the option of cremation, rendering plant, or landfill dump (if available).

On the Reservations I believe the laws are different but I do not know them off the top of my head.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> Should be the owners responsibility, at some point the horses had/have an owner. Vets need to be proactive about offering euthanasia - by that I mean it should be a part of the education given by vets at some point.
> 
> Rescues need to operate more like shelters do and put down those without hope of a good future.
> 
> ...



Come on, responsible owners don't send their horses to sales in the first place, where a meat buyer is likely to buy them
What are you going to do, make those people that run horses through a sale,. rounded up out of aback pasture, tell them=nope, you must take that horse home and put him down if you can no longer care for him, or wish to keep him???/
Face the fact. Horses are over bred Not only responsible horse loving people own horses. There are people that are going to dump un wanted horses at auctions

What about all the Mustangs that remain un adopted, or have even been returned tot he BLM, often more then once? Law says they can't be slaughtered, so their number grows every year, kept in holding pens,or on some land, fed by tax payer dollars????


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Look, we are way, way, way off topic, going into whether you can bury a horse or not, how you deal with your own faithful horse when the time comes
I certainly never want a horse of mine to wind up on anyone's dinner plate, nor see a horse of mine face his end at a slaughter plant. They are put down, grieved over and buried. However, what I do with my own horses, or any other horse owner out there that loves their horse(s) does, has no impact on the huge pool pf un wanted horses out there, who, if not given the slaughter option, instead become neglected, starved, facing a far worse long drawn out and painful death


THOSE HoRSES, owned by people who love them, are nOT the horses that wind up in slaughter!!!!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> The last horse I euthanized cost me almost $1000 because first I had to figure out if what was wrong was something I wanted to or could treat. So that part of the bill, plus emergency charges (late and weekend), and the bill ended up close to $1000. Had I taken her in and just said, "Nope, just euth her.", it would have been more like about $200. I don't want a horse buried here, the carcass would attract coyotes and such and I don't want to put my other animals, chickens, dogs, cats at risk. If a horse died on the property, then I would call a hauler to come take the carcass to the landfill. My belief is that when we're dead, we're done. The spirit or soul departs the body and leaves nothing behind except just flesh & bone. I see no reason not to send that to the landfill, it's not the horse I knew. I prefer to take the animal to OSU and let them know that they have permission to do a necropsy or use the body in any way the like for the vet students, once the horse is dead. I don't allow experiments when they are live.



Agree that dead is dead, and only two of my horses are buried here. The others were put down and then taken by a rendering truck
I know both Einstein and San Stone would not know the difference, whether they were buried or rendered, BuT I just could not do that with those two horses that were the most special in my life.

They are buried deep, with a back hoe, and we have lots of coyotes, but nothing is going to dig them up. It helped me to bring back smooth slate rock,, from an area we ride in often, a few at a time, and place them on those graves. 
Sometimes, I go and sit by Einstein;s grave, and enjoy some peaceful memories. Totally for my benifit


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

In Alabama the state law only requires that the animal (once deceased) must be burned or buried within 24hrs (if not intended for food) and the body must be below a minimum of 2 feet of soil if buried. There can be restrictions depending on county or city laws - if you are in an area where the water table is high, you are in a watershed, you are within a residential area (depending on zoning laws), within so many feet of a well or residence it may well be against the law. It would also be common sense if not against the law. So for those in the region I live burial is not always an option and I know those that have burned, buried and donated to the zoo or alligator farms. 

Our vets (specific to my location) offer to have your animal hauled off and burned for a fee (or hauled for burial if you have a location available) if PTS on their site. They don't have the space if they have land or for a couple that only operate mobile service the land to even consider the option of burying their clients horses on their property (clinic or personal).

You must be much further north in more rural areas.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It would be interesting if there was a state by state synopsis of the laws and a link if they differed by county.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Perhaps a new thread, as to putting down your own horse, and various laws, considerations, depending on where you are located.

However, the point discussed here, is, what to do with all the surplus un wanted horses, with slaughter being part of that topic
That topic has also been beaten to death, on other threads.
Thus to try and make my stance clear as possible, in as a condensed form as possible, in relationship to those un wnated horses,here goes.

First, I believe any horse that has served you faithfully, deserves that final gift, when the time comes, of having him put down by a vet, in his familiar surroundings and with that special person in that horse's life, being there
What is done with the body afterwards, is a personal choice, and based on laws where you live

NOw,on to the solution of unwanted horses.When slaughter was banned in the USA, that did those horses no good service in the end. Many of those horses were then shipped to mexico, where there are no slaughter or transport regulations.
When the economy got tough, many other horses were simply abandoned. People were locking their trailers, not because they might be stollen, but because they were liable to find an extra horse, similar to un wanted cats and dogs,dumped in the country, thinking some kind person is going to take them in
Others were simply neglected, no vet care, often not enough food.
Meanwhile, no regulations on supply and demand, far as horse breeding.
Thus, slaughter became a better option for those horses, versus neglect, shipping to mexico, ect, etc


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

The other day my farrier mentioned that he had heard that they had passed a bill to allow the slaughter houses to take in horses again. I asked him if that included money for the federal inspectors to do the inspections because otherwise it's no different than what's been done several times over the last few years. They say, "It's ok to use the slaughter houses to process horses." but when you look deeper there's still no money to fund the inspectors and due to conflict of interest, the slaughter plants can't pay an inspector on their own. So in essence, still no horse slaughter though now they can say it's legal. I haven't seen the latest bill, hadn't even heard of it until my farrier mentioned it, so I don't know what it contains. I suspect it still does not contain anything about funding for the inspectors or PETA and the like would have set up a serious howl. So, as politicians tend to do, they're trying to appease one side without making the other one mad. And the horses lose again.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

AnitaAnne said:


> I refer to things like bucking stock. Where do all those un-rideable horses go? Straight to slaughter when their careers are over? Not such a nice life...


I posted this earlier but it disappeared, so I apologize in advance if it comes through twice.

Our local PRCA rodeo stock contractor has thousands of acres of pasture where his stock live when not on the road and when retired. His retired stock live out at pasture, whether as breeding stock or simply in retirement. Animals in need of special feed/care are in pastures close to the house where they can be checked easily. When I die, I want to come back as one of their retired bucking horses....

Their Christmas card a few years ago was of one of their retired bucking stallions in knee-deep fresh snow with a wreath around his neck, and all of the grandkids sitting on his back 

I'd be willing to bet that rodeo roughstock have a lot lower chance of ending up at slaughter than retired racehorses, saddle seat horses, Big Lick Walkers, and used-up futurity western horses that couldn't handle the training and competing as a youngster, and aren't sound/talented enough to keep going as an aged horse. It would do the horse industry a world of good to get rid of the futuries and derbys and concentrated on aged-events. No horse should be doing sliding stops, spins, or cutting as a 2 y.o. anyway.....

But at least most of those horses are papered, and marketable if you find someone who appreciates them. What's going through the auctions here and ending up on the slaughter trucks are grade stock horses, usually unbroke. Weanlings and yearlings going through an ugly phase, or simply poorly-bred and never going to be quality horses. Used-up Amish road horses and aged draft horses with hoof problems. Broke saddle horses with navicular. Nice-looking 'grade' stock horses probably coming from a breeder who can't unload N/H horses any other way. Arabs that are 17 years old and barely halter broke. Skinny OTTB's that someone bought and got in over their head with. Foundered ponies. Pregnant mustang mares that are trying to go over the fence. Aged, swaybacked unbroke broodmares. The auctions are full of horses that there ISN'T a market for that nobody wants..... (And yes, I get that the market varies according the area of the country to some extent -- for instance, gaited horses are a dime a dozen in the south and make up a lot of the a loose/kill pen sale horses).


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@SilverMaple thank you for answering my implied question. I do not know any rodeo stock providers, so was unsure about their fate. I had heard they were mostly well cared for during their careers, but no solid information. It is wonderful to know that at least one breeder takes care of his stock throughout their lifetime. This is what I would like to see happen to other horses. 

It can and ethically/morally should be a requirement. 

Family pets, horses that are loved, do wind up in the auctions. 

We have a very well known kill dealer in the area. He has truckloads of horse coming in 2-3 times a week. 

He also has a large barn with a big pen in the middle where his staff try out horses. Anything ride able especially papered stock, is tried out. His barn is divided into three sections, then there are many paddocks in back. In the biggest stalls are the TB's and any other high dollar horses. Have seen horses he is asking 20K for in that section. 

Went to try a "kid broke" horse he had out in back in one of the bargain pens years ago. Discovered before I got on that the horse had a bowed tendon. The dealer said he wouldn't sell him to me, as he wasn't sound. 

I knew what the fate of that horse would be :icon_frown:

Decided I couldn't ethically support his business by purchasing a horse from him, even though I really wanted to "save" at least one of them. 

I had a very hard time even looking at any of the horses, and there were so many there it was heartbreaking. This was before the slaughter of horses ended in this country. I was thrilled when the slaughter stopped. I will never support such an inhumane system. 

My grandfather (and my father after him) owned a coal yard. In my grandfather's day, the coal trucks were pulled by horses. My grandfather made sure none of the drivers mistreated those horses. If he caught them not providing feed & water to the horses and not giving them breaks throughout the workday, he would fire them on the spot. Everyone knew if you wanted a job with my family, you better take care of the horses! 

He also insisted that the drivers offer the horses a cigarette when they stopped for a smoke. He claimed horses enjoyed cigarettes too(unlit, lol) 

When his horses retired, they were moved to a farm he owned in a neighboring state. (we lived in town) He never sold his horses. When my grandfather passed on, my dad inherited the business, and my uncle inherited the horse farm. 

My grandfather taught me to take care of all the creatures God entrusted to us. Horses give us so much, and ask so little in return.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Smilie said:


> What about all the Mustangs that remain un adopted, or have even been returned tot he BLM, often more then once? *Law says they can't be slaughtered,* so their number grows every year, kept in holding pens,or on some land, fed by tax payer dollars????


The law says they are to be slaughtered. Public opinion via lawsuits prevents it. Horses suffer.

https://www.wildhorseandburro.blm.gov/92-195.htm

Sec 3, b. 1.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> [MENTION=257257] I was thrilled when the slaughter stopped.


Sad thing is, according to what I've read including on the Humane Society's site, the slaughter has never stopped nor even slowed. They say there are just as many slaughtered now as there ever were mostly in Mexico where regulations are much more lax than here in the US.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Hondo said:


> Sad thing is, according to what I've read including on the Humane Society's site, the slaughter has never stopped nor even slowed. They say there are just as many slaughtered now as there ever were mostly in Mexico where regulations are much more lax than here in the US.


This is very true


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Sad thing is, according to what I've read including on the Humane Society's site, the slaughter has never stopped nor even slowed. They say there are just as many slaughtered now as there ever were mostly in Mexico where regulations are much more lax than here in the US.


Yes, unfortunately that is all to true. It was a big blow to those of us fighting to stop the slaughter. The next step is to stop the transport of horses for slaughter. 

I don't expect this to be easy. The right thing is never the easy option. There are trucks loaded with humans crossing the border illegally, how to stop the horses when such an atrocity as human transport is happening?? 

Sometimes I think "the wall" might not be such a bad idea...but then I do believe the great wall of China never quite worked the way it was intended. 

I do not have all the answers, not sure anyone does, but important to keep trying.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> In Alabama the state law only requires that the animal (once deceased) must be burned or buried within 24hrs (if not intended for food) and the body must be below a minimum of 2 feet of soil if buried. There can be restrictions depending on county or city laws - if you are in an area where the water table is high, you are in a watershed, you are within a residential area (depending on zoning laws), within so many feet of a well or residence it may well be against the law. It would also be common sense if not against the law. So for those in the region I live burial is not always an option and I know those that have burned, buried and donated to the zoo or alligator farms.
> 
> Our vets (specific to my location) offer to have your animal hauled off and burned for a fee (or hauled for burial if you have a location available) if PTS on their site. They don't have the space if they have land or for a couple that only operate mobile service the land to even consider the option of burying their clients horses on their property (clinic or personal).
> 
> You must be much further north in more rural areas.


Not sure where you are located, but I am definitely in a rural area, or at least the vets are, lol. 

Don't personally know of any vets that burn the horses, but that doesn't mean they don't exist around here. You are not referring to cremation though are you? Burning as in bonfire type? That could definitely be an option for all those "unwanted" horses that would not be as expensive as cremation. 

I am still thinking of that cow-pile someone mentioned where they just pile up the dead cattle. Going to do some asking around to find out what folks around here do with theirs. It could be a sensitive subject for some folks, so may take me some time to find out what is the generally accepted method of disposal.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> Yes, unfortunately that is all to true. It was a big blow to those of us fighting to stop the slaughter. The next step is to stop the transport of horses for slaughter.
> 
> I do not have all the answers, not sure anyone does, but important to keep trying.


Unintended consequences. I'm certain that all that pushed for an end to slaughter in the US expected a better end of life situation for the horse. But, as we all agree, the horse suffered from this legislation and continues to suffer each and every day.

So my thought is that before any legislation should be pursued or considered for a ban on export for slaughter, a deep think needs to occur regarding what, if any, unintended consequences might occur.

I'm thinking there could be a worse end of life than a long panick stricken journey to a slaughter house where they might suffer unspeakable horrors. 

As bad as that is, it would all be over in a week or so or maybe longer, I don't know the specifics.

But if it was illegal to ship to slaughter, and an owner could no longer afford to care for the horse, as happened in many many cases during the recent economic slowdown, (the GREAT recession), the horse might suffer years and years of neglect and final starvation. Painful hooves grown out out to a foot long.

Those scenarios happen now, but I fear they would be more frequent with legislation against export unless other legislation were put in place for some end of life scenario for those unwanted horses that could not be cared for.

I'm thinking of some institution such as the Humane Society but for horses where a person could take their horse to be put up for adoption and then humanely euthanized at some period of time as are other pets.

I personally would have a hard time supporting any legislation for stopping all slaughter anywhere unless this or some similar provision was included.

The horse is suffering the last legislation. We don't want the horse to suffer even more.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Yes @Hondo I do agree, need to prepare for unintended consequences. 

IMO once slaughter and transport to slaughter was abolished, those with excess horses would most likely just shoot them. If they couldn't make a few bucks off the poor creatures, they wouldn't keep them and might become more responsible breeding.

A bullet to the head is much less trauma to the horse than the slaughterhouse and the ride to the slaughterhouse. Horse auctions may become obsolete; not necessarily a bad thing. 

Also agree, the humane society and other associated rescue organizations need to humanely pts those unwanted animals. Have always wondered why rescue organizations always seem to have an abundance of animals with health issues. Their resources would be better spent on pts the crippled and unhealthy to make room for healthy ones. 

Our county shelter does have horses that have been seized from time to time, and those animals are adopted out to approved homes. They have a large pasture and a smaller paddock for sick animals or those needing more frequent care.

The other unintentional consequence; less foreign countries obtaining less horsemeat and maybe, just maybe, eating them would end :grin:


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> *Yes, unfortunately that is all to true. It was a big blow to those of us fighting to stop the slaughter. The next step is to stop the transport of horses for slaughter. *
> 
> I don't expect this to be easy. The right thing is never the easy option. There are trucks loaded with humans crossing the border illegally, how to stop the horses when such an atrocity as human transport is happening??
> 
> ...


Folks who want to ban things rarely seem to realize that one of the first unintended consequences is a very lucrative black market for the banned item. So lucrative that folks are willing to risk their own, and the lives of others to cash in. 

What I see here is a backwards approach. Stop the flow, with no real plan to accommodate the resulting back up and overflow.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Cordillera Cowboy said:


> Folks who want to ban things rarely seem to realize that one of the first unintended consequences is a very lucrative black market for the banned item. So lucrative that folks are willing to risk their own, and the lives of others to cash in.
> 
> What I see here is a backwards approach. Stop the flow, with no real plan to accommodate the resulting back up and overflow.


Do you have any ideas to accommodate the resulting back up and overflow?


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

AnitaAnne said:


> Do you have any ideas to accommodate the resulting back up and overflow?


No I don't. I'm in the "horses are livestock" camp. I could possibly support a prohibition on export for slaughter IF humane slaughter were reopened in the U.S. 

If the folks who want to ban both slaughter and export for slaughter first come up with a workable solution to the predictable backlog that stopping the flow would cause, I'm willing to listen. And to support them, if it sounds feasible. 

So far, there's only sound and fury over "don't kill the poor horses!" But no workable ideas on the overflow. A backwards and emotion based approach.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne, noble as your basic support of the ban of horse slaughter might be, your stance is not in the best interest of the horse, in the long run, not as long as horses are bred beyond demand, with many becoming un wanted
At least in the USA and Canada , there are laws and regulations towards humane slaughter.There are none in Mexico, where many of those surplus horses went, after the slaughter plants in the States were closed to horses.
Watch some videos of horses being stabbed, sometime hung up on hooks, still alive , slaughtered in Mexico. I doubt those poor animals would have thanked those that closed the option to a more humane slaughter in the States!
What about un wanted dogs and cats? Many are put down all the time, being un wanted. Where is the hue and cry there, just because the meat is not eaten in North America ?
You keep talking about how you treat your horses, how your family treats their horses, how other responsible horse owners that also happen to love horses treat them, but tell me, without reporting someone to the SPCA, when conditions get bad enough, so they take action, how are you going to regulate what the many people who happen to own/use horses, seeing them only as an asset or liability, do with them? 
It does not matter as to what responsible caring hrose people do with their horses, as there are still many, many, many un wanted horses. Go to any all breed auction mart, and you will see them going through that ring
You have to live with reality, then work on solutions within that reality, and not some utopia that does not exist.
When the slaughter plants were closed, The bottom selling price of those hroses going through those auctions, was less at times then the commission , so that people were abandoning horses in those auction marts after hours
I reported aherd of starving horses one year, tot he sPCA
I happened across them, walking a back pasture and woods, on some property my friend was thinking of buying. It was January, and 30 below C
Mares still had foals on them, and were back in foal, with one mare ready to foal anytime, in those conditions. Two studs were running with those mares.
All had back bones showing, even under winter hair. Where they had pawed for food, was bare frozen dirt. ONly some buried poplar leaves were under the snow, at the base of some trees.
No hay, no water.
The woman who owned the horses, said she bought them to save them from slaughter! Horses were seized,but what really got me, having inside info, as my son's ex was working in Horse Industry, thus knew the sPCA officers, was the fact that this woman had been convicted before, and now had horses again.
She is not alone in this,thus, if you wish to really do some good, get laws changed to that those that have starved animals, never are allowed to own them again.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Sad thing is, according to what I've read including on the Humane Society's site, the slaughter has never stopped nor even slowed. They say there are just as many slaughtered now as there ever were mostly in Mexico where regulations are much more lax than here in the US.


Exactly, and those that advocated to have slaughter banned in the USA, should be forced to see what their mis guided actions accomplished-forced to watch some horses being slaughtered in mexico
They also need to go with the SPCA, when they visit places reported for allowing horses to starve
Those that worked towards the Ban of horse slaughter, are as far re moved from reality as members of PETA!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> Yes, unfortunately that is all to true. It was a big blow to those of us fighting to stop the slaughter. The next step is to stop the transport of horses for slaughter.
> 
> I don't expect this to be easy. The right thing is never the easy option. There are trucks loaded with humans crossing the border illegally, how to stop the horses when such an atrocity as human transport is happening??
> 
> ...


Are you going to personally take in, feed, all those un wanted hroses,you helped condemn to slaughter in mexico
By helping to ban slaughter, you worked against the best interest of those poor horses whose only option was slaughter, or a slow painful death through starvation, or eventual slaughter in Mexico
There is a reason vets supported the option of horse slaughter. Perhaps become more informed, see what has now happened to those surplus un anted horses


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

perhaps read this artilce by the AAEP, which explains why the veterinary community thinks na=banning slaughter is not a viable law, because there is no solution or funding for care of those un wanted horses

AAEP clarifies stance on horse slaughter


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie said:


> perhaps read this artilce by the AAEP, which explains why the veterinary community thinks na=banning slaughter is not a viable law, because there is no solution or funding for care of those un wanted horses
> 
> AAEP clarifies stance on horse slaughter


IMO, the AAEP left out an all important word in the following sentence which I have inserted the word.

AAEP: "However, if a horse owner is not able or willing to provide humane care, the AAEP believes that *Humane* euthanasia at a processing facility is a humane alternative to a life of suffering, inadequate care and possibly abandonment."

And Humane Euthanasia needs to be clearly defined with penalties for not following those definitions. And the humane euthanasia needs to recognize the volatility of the panic stricken horse as compared to other farm animals. 

In my previous comments about animals suffering from severly inadequate care, I was focusing mainly on individual horse owners. The AAEP article relates to those situations in a similar way, indicating that making shipping out of state for slaughter would increase the number of suffering horses. But I've done a rethink this morning.

Where does the backup actually come from? Mostly?

I personally know of several area ranches that have one or two new colts each year just to see what turns up. Even though they may only use two or three horses that they ride for twenty or so years. They keep the colts until they are a few years old just to see how they turn out. Most are sold to auction.

The large ranch in Texas that I mentioned a while back breeds around 300 per year, keeping the best for show, some for use on the ranch, with the rest being sold at auction. Some for use but surely some to kill pens.

It's real handy. The cost for breeding a few extra on a large ranch is close to nothing and for certain is covered by the sale. Real handy. Breed a bunch and keep the best. But if they were faced with the possibility of needing to euthanize some of the extra themselves, they just might cut down on the breeding.

And people buying a cheap horse would face the possibility of needing to pay for euthanization if the horse did not work out.

So before I could make a decision of support about making export for slaughter illegal, I'd need some hard evidence on the major source of backup of unwanted horses.

I've only mentioned ranching, but my understanding is that the race industry is a major provider of unwanted horses as well. But more factual evidence is needed.

Some countries and societies eat dogs. I do not criticize them nor oppose them. We're all different. The cow is sacred in India. Most people here eat them.

As far as some believing a horse is livestock, I understand that. But that said, there is a huge difference between farm livestock and a horse in terms of mentality and social construction as it relates to humans. For me, the horse has moved away from livestock and into the realm of the dog. My horse is not a dog, but he is clearly a companion animal for me.

I could not relate to my horse as I do and eat horse meat at the same time. Just as I could not relate to my dog and eat dog meat at the same time. Just as I could not eat humane meat.

We're all different and so are societies. And what is ok in a democratic society is eventually determined by the voice of the public.

And so we all add our voices and hope for our voice to win out. That's the battle in the democratic society and as it should be.

And to reiterate, some study or similar really needs to be done to gather factual information on the source of unwanted horses deemed to a slaughter auction in order to make the best decision for the horse.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@Smilie I do not appreciate how you repeatedly post that I am not facing reality. Can you please stop with the personal attacks? I get that you are on the opposite side of this issue, but that doesn't mean that your stance is the only reality. No one else is making these personal attacks, why are you? 

The inhumane slaughter process is exactly why I am against it! Of course there are irresponsible and uncaring people in the world; that is exactly why responsible people need to protect those innocents that need it. 

I took in therapeutic foster children for years; you would not believe the horrors these poor kids suffered_ often from their own parents_. I understand the reality of cruel, sadistic people. I do not live in some sort of utopia nor to I believe we will ever reach it. But I was brought up to understand that it was my responsibility, and the responsibility of every person, to help the weaker among us, and that includes all Gods creatures. 

Put a bullet to those horses heads or euthanize; much more humane IMO than any slaughterhouse. The racing industry, for example, would have no difficulty funding a crematory for their unwanted horses. 

Folks will stop breeding those excess horses or will put them down, or abandon them. There will be no financial gain to someone to buy or breed excess horses. If they are abandoned or abused or neglected then the Humane societies need to step in and euthanize the surplus. Eventually, the supply and demand would equalize and there would be much less excess horses. 

Why would many of you be opposed to just euthanizing these horses? Why so adamant that the only option is more slaughterhouses and more slaughter? 

Here's a little reality, do you want that slaughterhouse located next to you? Do you want to see those thousands of horses daily, hear their screams? Smell the odor of constant death? Have those trucks constantly passing your home? 

I think that those that so adamantly want these slaughterhouses need to offer to have them on their land, *with no personal financial gain*, IF they start back slaughter which I pray to God doesn't ever happen.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Smilie's just got an an abrasive way of saying things sometimes. Ya just gotta learn to shrug it off. I don't agree with everything she says, but she really does know a lot and has a bunch of experience. And really does care about horses, IMO.

She just sometimes seems to take offense at anything she doesn't agree with as a personal attack on her which cause her to perhaps sometimes be a little too aggressive in some of her statements.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Smilie's just got an an abrasive way of saying things sometimes. Ya just gotta learn to shrug it off. I don't agree with everything she says, but she really does know a lot and has a bunch of experience. And really does care about horses, IMO.
> 
> She just sometimes seems to take offense at anything she doesn't agree with as a personal attack on her which cause her to perhaps sometimes be a little too aggressive in some of her statements.


I have noticed that, and had been ignoring it on post after post, but just decided that I needed to stand up for myself a bit, and quit letting her put me down for my beliefs :grin:


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Until there is an outlet for the horses nobody wants, slaughter needs to be an option. I don't see many of the people saying 'no slaughter' stepping up and filling their properties with unbroke, lame, skinny, or unwanted horses. Many that do keep them in worse conditions than the kill pens and slaughter houses under the guise of 'rescues' begging endlessly for funds while horses stand around in dirty, trashy pens with untrimmed hooves, no vet care, and open sores. Those doing the most good are, ironically, the ones that pull the worst of the worst, take them home, and shoot them to ensure a quick death.

There's no financial gain to breeding excess horses in most cases. You still have to feed and care for those horses, and that adds up to well over the few hundred dollars one might get at auction very quickly. Removing the option of slaughter will not stop people breeding more horses than they need, or needing to dispose of horses they already have. Things happen. Families that thought their horse would have a home for life have a health emergency and suddenly everything is sold because they're facing bankruptcy for medical bills, or horse care simply is too much. Kids grow up and the kids' horse has navicular and now nobody wants him and your other option is keeping him for 15 more years until he dies. Rural properties are swallowed up by development and homeowners are forced to sell horses. A horse thought to be broke and usable develops a dangerous habit or bows a tendon and the family doesn't want a horse they can't ride for 20 more years. Someone buys a mare and finds out after purchase that mare is due to foal in a few months-- should they be forced to keep that foal they never wanted and don't have the facilities or knowledge to train? Remember that foal has no papers and may have some conformational issues affecting his saleability. Ideally, these folks would euth the unwanted horses rather than taking them to auction, but that's also expensive, and you'd still have public outcry that 'at least at auction the horse has a chance.' You should see the kerfluffle when someone shoots a horse because he has a health issue or a dangerous habit and they don't want him to end up in Mexico or hurt someone. Or God forbid a person dies and her wishes include that her 15 y.o. diabetic cat be euthed so she knows he won't suffer....

Americans have a problem with death that many other cultures do not. There are worse fates than death. There are simply too many horses NOBODY wants to take the option off the table. Do I like the idea of horses going to slaughter? Heck no. Nobody does. But a death with regulations is far better than one without.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

SilverMaple said:


> Americans have a problem with death that many other cultures do not.


This is one reason I'm glad I live in this country.

Why slaughter rather than humane euthanasia?

Large ranches can and do overbreed horses with very little if any cost which is more than recovered by a kill pen sale.

It's the sources of unwanted horses that needs to be determined, scrutinized, and reduced.

There are certainly horses that become unwanted due to the the situations you mention, but at what % of the total is a complete unknown at this time I'm thinking.

The thing is, if the kill pen were taken off the table, it just might become a known that if you buy a horse and decide you don't want it, you just may have to euthanize it yourself if it was not a saleable horse. When that concept got around it might make people think a bit more before getting a horse and further reduce the outlet for the over breeders.

I'm just thinking out loud. My mind is fluid at this point.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

I'd just like to add a note of my own. Before craigslist, there were 2 local auctions. They did a lot of business. Now, one is gone, and the other only has about 30 head running through once a month. There is another monthly auction up in the high desert that is still going. Here in So Cal, I do not see a glut of horses. The ones going through the auction are mostly horses that did not sell on CL along with a few that just slip through the cracks. A broke horse that seems sound finds a home. I don't know if they stay there, sometimes I see the horse back at the auction next month. But if the horse seems in good shape, there are plenty of bidders. 

I believe that when the housing market crashed here it weeded things out a bit. There are plenty of people in search of a bombproof horse. If the horse is well broke, there is a home.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

Lots of points made. Won't go into all of them. But I have seen racing and the industry mentioned. Even that an endless number of horse from racing are sent to slaughter. Wanted to look at that.

In 2016 20,850 foals were born eligible for racing and that been about the number for a few years now. I have seen numbers of anywhere from 120,00 -170,000 horses are sent to slaughter each year from the United States. So will go with the aforementioned 150, 000. Some rough quick math tells us that even if every single one of race horses born were sent, it would make up only 15 percent of the total. We all know that does not happen. Half would be around 7 percent. That's not true either. The fact of the matter is racing does not keep the slaughter houses doors open. Numbers wise, racing doesn't make a dent one way or the other to their business.

That's not to say I am ok with any race horse being sent to slaughter. Racing is doing a better job,but much more needs to be done. Tracks can ban the kill trucks. But the truth is those looking to do that will find a way. But that is no different than any other horse segment. But I am not ok with racing always being seen as a pipeline to the slaughter house.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

aubie said:


> Lots of points made. Won't go into all of them. But I have seen racing and the industry mentioned. Even that an endless number of horse from racing are sent to slaughter. Wanted to look at that.


This is what I'm looking for. And more of it. Your post sent me searching. I landed on a PETA article. Not a member or a supporter but here's their statistics which are in line with what you posted.

Quote: "A staggering 130,000 American horses were slaughtered in Mexico and Canada in 2015, yet the rodeo, racing, and show industries—along with other irresponsible breeders—continue to churn out hundreds of thousands of horses annually.

Two-thirds of horses sent to slaughter are quarter horses, and many are castoffs from the rodeo or racing industries. The Thoroughbred-racing industry sends an estimated 10,000 horses to slaughter annually, meaning that half of the 20,000 new foals born each year will eventually be killed for their flesh."

https://www.peta.org/issues/animals...-industry-cruelty/overbreeding-and-slaughter/

Interesting that they found 66% slaughtered to be quarter horses.

I just came in from stretching some woven wire where I was thinking about this thread and this question popped into my head.

I wonder how many people that describe themselves as being in the "horses are livestock" group would support the ranching of horses for just meat production as cattle are. Some I suppose, but my (unsubstantiated) opinion is that not many would.


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

You can't take anything peta says at face value or even assume factual. Also no numbers but just thinking that if TB racing sent half of each years crop, that there's a lot of females in that grouping. At some point you would dwindle down to nothing. For an animal that doesn't have liters every few months, but 1 offspring a year with a 50-50 chance of being female, that's not sustainable.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> @Smilie I do not appreciate how you repeatedly post that I am not facing reality. Can you please stop with the personal attacks? I get that you are on the opposite side of this issue, but that doesn't mean that your stance is the only reality. No one else is making these personal attacks, why are you?
> 
> The inhumane slaughter process is exactly why I am against it! Of course there are irresponsible and uncaring people in the world; that is exactly why responsible people need to protect those innocents that need it.
> 
> ...


When I was in 4-H, they offered an equine vet science project for the senior level horse program kids. One of the things we did was visit a slaughterhouse. We went because it was a place where you can see glaringly obvious unsoundnesses in quantity. Spavins and windbroken horses and navicular horses and just everything. Plenty of old skinny horses too -- this was before the advances which now can keep horses happy into their thirties; in those days twenty years was approaching the limit. At a certain point, you just couldn't keep weight on them. So off they would go. 

We didn't go inside, because that wasn't why we were there, but there no screams. No smell of constant death. No trucks even, that I remember. Nor were there thousands of horses. It was a local place. It used to be that there were such businesses were in every rural county. It was quiet. Just a couple hundred or so sad-looking horses standing patiently in paddocks. On the other side of the factory they had facilities for cattle. 

There is such a thing as humane slaughter. Read Temple Grandin on the subject. She has done a great deal to reform slaughter facilities for cattle in the US. In my opinion, what this country needs is many more humane slaughterhouses and mobile abatoirs. Smaller scale, local, inspected, regulated. 

A reason to move away from euthanizing is that it injects toxic chemicals into the animal which render it unfit for consumption -- by humans, dogs, cats, anything. There's a lot of protein going to waste, and a huge body that has to be disposed of. Doesn't make sense to me at all. 

I love my horses but I am not going to turn my face away from death and all its ramifications. Death is part of the cycle of life; it is not intrinsically a horror nightmare of cruelty.

Anyone who has lived and worked on a farm knows this. Animals are born, and they die. We eat some of them, because we're omnivores, that is in our design. You can rail against these facts but that won't change them.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

I do understand what you're saying aubie. In fact, it's hard to take anything from a passionate source as being purely accurate.

In part of the quote I pasted PETA talks about, "along with other irresponsible breeders—continue to churn out hundreds of thousands of horses annually." when at the same time they talk about 130,000 slaughtered annually.

So yeah, I get that.

But the numbers on Thoroughbreds seem to be (sort of) accurate based on what you posted, so I'm thinking the 2/3 quarter horse number may be accurate also.

I've spent some time searching for the sources of slaughtered horses and have came up empty except for PETA. Who else would take the time and trouble to even try to monitor how many of which breed were slaughtered.

It does seem like if records are available for the number exported each year for slaughter, there would be a line that showed the breed of each. But maybe not. Be interesting to know the age also.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Hondo said:


> I wonder how many people that describe themselves as being in the "horses are livestock" group would support the ranching of horses for just meat production as cattle are. Some I suppose, but my (unsubstantiated) opinion is that not many would.


I don't know how many of us would support it, would participate in it, but I wouldn't be against it especially if, as in EU, there was an outbreak of Hoof and Mouth or something that rendered our cattle inedible. I grew up in EU and don't have a problem with people eating horse meat if they choose. Not my favorite, but in a pinch, yes, I would. I would also support an inspection process where they came and inspected like they do in Spain and took the culls to feed the army or prisoners or those in need. That would very neatly solve the unwanted horse problem.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Hondo said:


> I do understand what you're saying aubie. In fact, it's hard to take anything from a passionate source as being purely accurate.
> 
> In part of the quote I pasted PETA talks about, "along with other irresponsible breeders—continue to churn out hundreds of thousands of horses annually." when at the same time they talk about 130,000 slaughtered annually.
> 
> ...


PETA is a political body with a ferocious, irrational, and bizarre agenda. No one, ever, anywhere, should take anything they say as anything but a lie. This has been documented over and over and over. They lie about their own activities, they lie about the realities of anything and anyone they have decided is their cause of the day. They are disgusting. I would never in a million years use their "data" for anything. 

I found a sane discussion about horse slaughter numbers on the AVMA website on the first page of a simple google search. It took less than half a minute to find it. There is a good analysis of the issues, and why hard figures can be hard to come by. It discusses how much fluctuation there is in that population, essentially linked to the greater economy.

The number of unwanted horses of different breeds is a basic reflection of how common those breeds are. Nothing mysterious about it whatsoever. I bet the number of Akhal Tekes sent to slaughter in this country is tiny in comparison with the number of TBs and Quarter Horses. Don't need rocket science to figure out why.

The very same people who made sure we can't kill unwanted horses are now shocked and grief-stricken that now there are endless numbers of unwanted horses that have no possible good fate. Surprise! 

There are many different, long range, ways to approach the problem, and my sanest guess is that, like most complicated issues, applying as many of solutions as possible as widely as possible and then studying to find which of them make the biggest differences, will be the only approach that will work. Some of the solutions will be very unpalatable to the sentimental and short-sighted. But virtually certainly, those solutions will also have to be part of mix.

Animal Rightists have done me and and many friends quite a bit of harm, and would do more if allowed. I have no sympathy.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Hondo said:


> I wonder how many people that describe themselves as being in the "horses are livestock" group would support the ranching of horses for just meat production as cattle are. Some I suppose, but my (unsubstantiated) opinion is that not many would.


It is done in some parts of the world and I'm okay with it.

Here in the US is isn't as inexpensive to raise as beef, pig, chicken, or goat, so I'm not sure it would be economically feasible.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

@Avna so you visited a slaughterhouse but did not go inside. Was this a planned visit? Were they even slaughtering at that time? did they have the outside cleaned up for your visit? 

When I was in college (many, many moons ago) I drove almost daily past a slaughterhouse a few towns up on my way to school. I frequently had trucks loaded with animals passing me, yes, the trucks were speeding by me in my little car with _no care as to the load they carried_. 

The slaughterhouse was on the main road, and I had to drive 30 minutes out of my way to avoid it. The smell was horrendous when they were "processing". I could hear the screams of pain from the road *driving by with my windows shut*. The animals were often brought in later in the afternoon or early morning. 

It got to where I couldn't stand to drive by when they were processing, so I left for school really early so would be driving past it before it opened for business. I could see the animals in the holding pens, just standing around :frown_color:

In the afternoon the smell was so bad, I sometimes stayed late in the evening or went out with friends just to avoid passing that processing plant. Sometimes drove the 30 minutes around the other way so I didn't have to see the place. 

I'm not sure exactly when it closed, but I was sure glad it did. When I drive past the spot it was, I still instinctively turn my head to see what is in the holding pens. I used to pray for a quick end for those poor creatures. 

A shot to the head in a pasture would be a blessing compared to going through a slaughterhouse.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

aubie said:


> Lots of points made. Won't go into all of them. But I have seen racing and the industry mentioned. Even that an endless number of horse from racing are sent to slaughter. Wanted to look at that.
> 
> In 2016 20,850 foals were born eligible for racing and that been about the number for a few years now. I have seen numbers of anywhere from 120,00 -170,000 horses are sent to slaughter each year from the United States. So will go with the aforementioned 150, 000. Some rough quick math tells us that even if every single one of race horses born were sent, it would make up only 15 percent of the total. We all know that does not happen. Half would be around 7 percent. That's not true either. The fact of the matter is racing does not keep the slaughter houses doors open. Numbers wise, racing doesn't make a dent one way or the other to their business.
> 
> That's not to say I am ok with any race horse being sent to slaughter. Racing is doing a better job,but much more needs to be done. Tracks can ban the kill trucks. But the truth is those looking to do that will find a way. But that is no different than any other horse segment. But I am not ok with racing always being seen as a pipeline to the slaughter house.


The racing industry has actually made great strides (although not sure they did it all willingly) to reduce the number of retired TB sent to slaughter. The racing industry supports TB rescue and rehab organizations. They also promote OTTB second careers. 

But more effort can be made. 

Racehorses at least are papered animals and have records. Would be much easier to obtain a paper trail of these horses to make sure any OTTB not rehomed are humanely pts and not sent to slaughter. 

More accountability needs to be made to other groups and equine industries.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

AnitaAnne said:


> @Avna so you visited a slaughterhouse but did not go inside. Was this a planned visit? Were they even slaughtering at that time? did they have the outside cleaned up for your visit?<snip>
> 
> A shot to the head in a pasture would be a blessing compared to going through a slaughterhouse.


Well, I certainly agree with your last sentence. That's how the majority of horses used to end their days who didn't die of natural causes. Just like other livestock and dogs and cats were dispatched on the farm premises by the farmer. 

As far as the field trip goes, I was 15 at the time. I'm 60 now. There's a lot I don't remember or never knew about the logistics. I don't know if they were slaughtering at the time. I am moderately sure we just drove up and got out and wandered around. Doubt that anybody was alerted. There were only about six kids and one adult (we were a small but energetic club). 

As I've said twice now, there is such a thing as humane slaughter. We lack the political will to implement it, as it would entail both the Animal Rightists giving up their fixed position that any slaughter is anathema to them, and meat processors giving up their fixed position that the only thing that matters is cutting costs. 

Since my basic pessimism and misanthropy has only worsened over my lifetime, I'm not holding my breath over this.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Avna said:


> As I've said twice now, there is such a thing as humane slaughter.


Just for the record, there are other conflicting opinions.

Quote: "Is it possible to conduct commercial horse slaughter in a humane manner?
No. Horse slaughter, whether in U.S. or foreign plants, was never and cannot be humane because of the nature of the industry and the unique biology of horses.

Slaughter is a brutal and terrifying end for horses, and it is not humane. Horses are shipped for more than 24 hours at a time without food, water or rest in crowded trucks. They are often seriously injured or killed in transit.

Horses are skittish by nature (owing to their heightened fight-or-flight response), which makes accurate pre-slaughter stunning difficult. As a result, horses often endure repeated blows and sometimes remain conscious during dismemberment—this is rarely a quick, painless death. Before the last domestic plant closed in 2007, the USDA documented in the slaughter pipeline rampant cruelty violations and severe injuries to horses, including broken bones protruding from their bodies, eyeballs hanging by a thread of skin, and gaping wounds.

The answer is not to return to subjecting our horses to abuse and unacceptable conditions at plants in the U.S. but to ban both horse slaughter and the export of horses for slaughter altogether and to provide our horses with decent lives and, when necessary, humane deaths."

From: The Facts About Horse Slaughter : The Humane Society of the United States

I'm still wondering why no one is talking about humane euthanization. Period. Horse meat in the US is not safe for human consumption anyhow. Why do they need to die in a slaughter house?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

The Humane Society of the United States is not a humane society. It is a fundraising, proselytizing arm of PETA (or perhaps PETA is the radical terrorist arm of HSUS). It is not an umbrella organization for local humane societies. It does not provide any humane services. Its real ethos would make all your hair stand on end. Stay far away from them.

_There is such a thing as humane slaughter of horses_. Just because it may not exist in this country in any real way does not make my statement untrue. Methods that work for cattle may not work for horses but that doesn't mean such methods don't exist or can't be developed. Humane slaughter means changing the way horses were slaughtered in the past. To me, that is a big part of the solution. 

Why is euthanasia not as good a solution? Because the vast majority of unwanted horses are UNWANTED. No one wants to pay for euthanizing them. Where would you bury fifty thousand horses, may I ask? And then what about the next year, the next fifty thousand? 

Horsemeat could be made fit for human (or pet) consumption. Most of the drugs administered to them have withdrawal times, just as other livestock drugs do. It is not a true obstacle.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> Just for the record, there are other conflicting opinions.
> 
> Quote: "Is it possible to conduct commercial horse slaughter in a humane manner?
> No. Horse slaughter, whether in U.S. or foreign plants, was never and cannot be humane because of the nature of the industry and the unique biology of horses.
> ...


humane euthanization. Everyone of us provides that for our own horses,hopefully.
However, who is going to fund euthanization and disposal of un wanted hroses?

If every horse that now goes to slaughter, is euthanized, even with vets donating their service ( not the drugs), where is all that residual drug going to go?

It is nice to have ideals, but sometimes you have to work with what is in place, and make it as good as it can be Get involved in laws that strictly enforce both humane slaughter and transport
Come up with a working plan of funding euthanization of all horses. First, will be a need to remove them as livestock classification. Then, you need a method making sure all un wanted horses are surrendered, versus left sitting in flelds, often having a slow death of starvation and neglect
What is the solution for disposal of the sheer number of unwanted horses, run through auction marts all over the country. Burial ? What about the water table, and all those drugs in euthanized horses?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

whisperbaby22 said:


> I'd just like to add a note of my own. Before craigslist, there were 2 local auctions. They did a lot of business. Now, one is gone, and the other only has about 30 head running through once a month. There is another monthly auction up in the high desert that is still going. Here in So Cal, I do not see a glut of horses. The ones going through the auction are mostly horses that did not sell on CL along with a few that just slip through the cracks. A broke horse that seems sound finds a home. I don't know if they stay there, sometimes I see the horse back at the auction next month. But if the horse seems in good shape, there are plenty of bidders.
> 
> I believe that when the housing market crashed here it weeded things out a bit. There are plenty of people in search of a bombproof horse. If the horse is well broke, there is a home.


It is not the bomb proof horses that usually wind up sold to slaughter. Thus, best way you can ensure a horse you raise ,never goes to slaughter, is to get them well trained


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Hondo said:


> This is one reason I'm glad I live in this country.
> 
> Why slaughter rather than humane euthanasia?
> 
> ...



To be clear, I do not like the idea of slaughter, but unless there is a working alternative, I rather see ahorse go to slaughter, then left to starve, or neglected, when he needs medical care
I am all for stronger slaughter regulations and inspections, to see that they are followed
I am in complete agreement that we need regulations when it comes to breeding hroses, but there is a mind set, in the USA, against any government infringement, far as that general population feels is their right.
The gun control fiasco alone should illustrate that, so how in the heck would a government then have programs in place, like in Europe, that have inspections for breeding horses? Think the average back yard breeder, and those that breed a great number of horses, to try and get that one champion, be it a race horse or a futurity horse, accept being told as to how many and which hroses they can breed?
Far as where they come from, I can only relate what feeds our local market for horse slaughter\
Fat horses, rounded up out of some back forty, never broke,feet never trimmed, often not even halter broke, driven through that sale ring

Most horses that come into that ring, under saddle, go half decent, are bought by private individuals
Of course, the pMU industry was a major contributor, with foals produced according to the urine qouta, thus being by products
When the Standardbred race tracks in Ontario were closed, many of those horses went directly to slaughter
Many people breed a mare ,just because she has a uterus, or because it would be 'so cute' to have that baby horse, r if they can't ride her, by God they can at least breed her.
Foal grows up, and they don;t have the ability to train it themselves.Quick look at training fees, and the reality sets in, that the training will cost them more then they will ever be able to sell that horse for, so they cut their loses and send it through that sales ring.
I too would love it if no horse went to slaughter, but unless there is a viable alternative in place, some regulations that control the number of horses bred, then slaughter is often not the worse fate those horses might face.
Who is going to buy those un wanted horses, going through those sales rings and then have them put down and disposed of?


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Hondo said:


> This is one reason I'm glad I live in this country.
> 
> Why slaughter rather than humane euthanasia?
> 
> ...


Hondo,
You make good points in the first part. The last part, is engaging in the wishful thinking I've been talking about in this thread. Shutting off the outlet, without a realistic plan to deal with the resulting overflow.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Avna said:


> Well, I certainly agree with your last sentence. That's how the majority of horses used to end their days who didn't die of natural causes. Just like other livestock and dogs and cats were dispatched on the farm premises by the farmer.
> 
> As far as the field trip goes, I was 15 at the time. I'm 60 now. There's a lot I don't remember or never knew about the logistics. I don't know if they were slaughtering at the time. I am moderately sure we just drove up and got out and wandered around. Doubt that anybody was alerted. There were only about six kids and one adult (we were a small but energetic club).
> 
> ...


Bingo! As with so many other things these days, the extremists at both ends have control of the argument.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Dude here in the Dallas area, set up his facebook page as the Kaufman Kill pen, sells horses he buys cheap at auction as "slaughter" horses, he has no intention of taking them to slaughter, just uses it to get tree huggers/bunny luvvers to buy horses at 2-3x what he paid for the at auction.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Aubie, Thanks for the stats from the racing industry. 

Hondo, I'm in the horses are livestock camp. I'd have no problems at all if horses were raised for meat. I've had horsemeat while I was in Europe. It was in a hamburger patty, and to me was indistinguishable from lean ground beef.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Humane slaughtering for horses "COULD" be developed? Who knows this? Where would one bury 150,000 horses?

Get this: On 64,000 farms in Texas producing at least $1,000 per year in 2012 there were 395,000 horses.

Nation wide on 504,795 farms there were 3,621,348 horses.

Not included are race, backyard, and other sources of horse population.

The study rated as most accurate puts the US total in 2009 at 9,222,847.

Now how many horses do you suppose die each year out of 9 million? I'd say the number would be several times the 150,000 exported for slaughter. So what do they do with the corpse? Same as could be done for the 150,000 exported.

The notion that slaughter is necessary because there is no other way to dispose of the corpse is unrealistic.

Profit from slaughter is a motor for driving the over breeding of horses. That's a fact. Argue about it but it's still a fact.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Hondo said:


> Profit from slaughter is a motor for driving the over breeding of horses. That's a fact. Argue about it but it's still a fact.


I don't believe this "fact", and won't until I see some hard data on how much breeders base their budgets on how much they'll get from kill buyers for the excess horses they produce. Let's see that. 

Let's see the stats on how, now that there is no horse slaughter in the US, hence no significant profit to be made except from re-selling worthless horses to do-gooders, over-breeding has plummeted. 

No. 

Overbreeding is a byproduct of a variety of management practices of breeders with widely differing goals. Some of this is simply a fact of nature -- to get really good horses you also need to produce a lot of 'extra' horses, because that's how livestock breeding is. In livestock, your culls go to market, your picks become your continually-upgraded breeding herd. That's how it has been since time immemorial. 

There are also thousands of horses produced with little forethought by a breeder, or with no input from humans whatsoever -- feral horses, backyard horses. Who told them how much profit there was in slaughter? 

In a rational world, a world in which the goal is to create sustainable systems which support the ecology of the planet, the well-being of humans, and the humane care of domestic animals, we could have discussions about the best ways to go about achieving this. This is not that world. Instead we get irrational unworkable emotion-driven crackpot schemes on the one hand, and brutal profit-driven destruction on the other, and nothing in between. 

I'm bowing out here.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

no, profit from slaughter is not the motor that drives over breeding of horses' What drives it, is breeding horses beyond supply and demand , often based on other goals, such as race wins, urine quotas and just the plain fact it is very easy to breed a mare,with many that do so, having no idea as to what to do with that resulting foal
Slaughter is the result of irresponsible breeding, breeding with no relationship between supply and demand, for the very reason that most horse breeding is not run as a business, that pays for itself
No one raising cattle, continues to breed them at a loss, as their income comes from those cattle, and not from extraneous sources
Cattle are not bred to win purses, no one says, 'well, if we can't ride that cow, because it is crippled,or we lack the skill to train it, we can breed her, and get a cute calf.
Put up million dollar races for cows,and see how many extra cows are bred, to try and get that champion calf
It is the very fact that many horse breeding is not run like a livestock operation, but often based on nothing more then irresponsible wims,or often fueled by funds having nothing to do with the breeding of those hroses, and when those external funds dry up, the horses have to be liquidated


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> The racing industry has actually made great strides (although not sure they did it all willingly) to reduce the number of retired TB sent to slaughter. The racing industry supports TB rescue and rehab organizations. They also promote OTTB second careers.
> 
> But more effort can be made.
> 
> ...


Yes, the TB industry has taken on some responsibility for rehoming OTTBs, but so so, far as the Standardbred industry


New study shows the value of slaughter to race horse breeders ? Animals 24-7


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Perhaps this article can clarify why banning Horse slaughter, is not in the best interest of those un wanted horses.

Here is one paragraph:

Anti-Horse Slaughter Legislation:
Bad for Horses, Bad for Society
LAURA JANE DURFEE*
INTRODUCTION
The United States horse slaughter industry is on its deathbed. The demise of the
industry follows various animal welfare groups' increased activism in recent years to
eliminate domestic equine slaughter.' These proponents' arguments are emotionally
charged, at the cost of foresight. For example, they claim that horses are "a rich part of
American culture," 2 but they fail to address what will really happen to "rescued" horses
that would otherwise be destined for slaughter. While horses have played an important
role in this nation's history, romanticizing the horse's place in our society while
ignoring the consequences that are likely to follow a slaughter ban3 does little, if
anything, for equine welfare. The past president of the American Veterinary Medicine
Association, Dr. Bonnie Beaver, summed this up when she said,
We must think of the consequences of the proposed ban in concert with the
welfare of a large number of horses that could be affected. I urge [members of
Congress] to... base their opinions on facts and science, not on emotions. [The
proposed horse slaughter ban] ... has significant negative consequences for many
horses.4
The elimination of domestic equine slaughter does not benefit equine welfare and has
negative economic effects on the horse industry. Equine adoption agencies can neither
absorb nor fund care for the 65,000 to 90,000 unwanted horses a year t



http://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1090&context=ilj


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Domestic horse slaughter is a necessary part of the billion-dollar horse industry. The
slaughter industry not only provides revenue, jobs, and taxes, but it also provides a
humane, economically viable disposal option for unwanted or dangerous horses under
careful federal regulation. While the horse slaughter industry does not differ from other
domestic animal slaughter industries, the emotions that surround the slaughter of horses
have created a vocal public outcry.47 Many citizens, most of whom are not associated
with the horse industry, perceive the horse as something of a mystical icon embodying
a special place in American history. a8 Congress and state legislatures have responded
with significant regulations; the carefully regulated, much-needed domestic equine
slaughter industry is now effectively extinct.


Without a domestic equine slaughter market, and with other options unavailable or
cost-prohibitive, many horse owners will deal with unwanted horses in other, more
undesirable, ways. Some estimates put the number of abandoned horses-so far-at
over 120,000.88 A sale barn owner in Utah reported that one horse owner abandoned
his horses at a sale barn because the owner could not afford to pay the consignment fee
to sell his horses.89 Another owner locked twenty-three horses in a barn because he
could no longer afford to care for them because of the rising costs of feed 9° and the
horses' plummeting value. 9
' One rancher in Oregon reported that, during an eighteen to
twenty-four month period, at least nine horses were turned loose on his ranch. 92 In
Pennsylvania, two horses were found dead along with seven others suffering from
malnourishment.93 Those who abandon horses can be charged with animal
abandonment or animal abuse, but it can be difficult to identify the owners of
abandoned horses, since many horses have no identifying marks tying them to their
owners.94 Unwanted horses who are not neglected, starved, or abandoned may still find
their way to slaughterhouses, but they will travel farther distances-across national

boarders-a journey that can be stressful on old or weak horses 95
-and may end up at
facilities that use slaughter techniques that would be far from acceptable at a federally
regulated U.S. slaughterhouse.
One slaughterhouse buyer reported on the increased distance traveled by the horses
he purchases.96 This buyer now ships the horses he purchases at auction to El Paso,
Texas, where they are transferred to another truck, and hauled across the border and
out of USDA oversight.97 From there, the horses might stay in Juarez, Mexico, for
slaughter or they might be shipped 700 miles south to one of two large plants in the
city of Zacatecas.98 The Juarez plant uses captive bolt guns, a humane equine slaughter
method according to the American Veterinary Medical Association,99 but the bolt guns
rarely operate correctly.100 Often, workers must incapacitate a horse by severing its
spinal cord with a knife, a process known as the "puntilla" technique. 101 A horse might
endure as many as thirteen jabs to the back before it collapses. 0 2 After the horse
collapses, it is left on the ground for two minutes before it is attached to a chain, lifted
up, and has its throat slit. 0 3 However, the horse smells, hears, and sees his throat being
slit because the jabs to the spinal cord leave the horse quadriplegic, but conscious. 104
Therefore, the horse experiences being hoisted and bleeding to death. 10 5 The plant
owner in Juarez compares this method of slaughter to "watching someone with an ice
pick."'1 6 As of September 2007, 30,000 American horses had been shipped to Mexico,
a 370% increase from the number recorded in September 2006.107
Slaughterhouses in Canada do not incapacitate horses with knifejabs to the back.10 8
Instead, most slaughterhouses shoot them with a .22 caliber rifle.l19 As with horses
shipped to Mexico, horses sent to Canada for slaughter travel farther than they did
when slaughterhouses operated in the United States, 1 0 causing an increased risk of


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

From an artilce feed back, by the equine author, Jane Smiley

'I was a proponent of the anti-horse-slaughter legislation until I learned what a monster we created with it. As wonderful as it would be to take every unwanted horse in this country and place it in a sanctuary such as one Ms. Pickens proposes, the reality is that horses are simply too large, live too long, and are too expensive to maintain for any entity to do this. Perhaps in the future, the number of horses bred in this country can be reduced and the number of unwanted horses would therefore decline, but until then, we can’t just ignore the surplus of the present. While chemical euthanasia is the most humane alternative to slaughter, giving such a large dose of toxins to a large animal creates a huge environmental problem- when the body is buried, the euthanasia solution can easily wind up in groundwater and wildlife. For one backyard horse this may not be a problem, but on a large scale this can become a HUGE issue. I don’t think any of us want to be drinking pentobarbital out of the tap, no matter how much we love our departed equines
https://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/01/why-horse-slaughter-is-necessary/


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

In final summary:

One alternative form of euthanasia not mentioned here is euthanasia by gunshot. This sounds terrible, old-fashioned and barbaric, but if done properly, a single bullet to the head is fast, painless and does not leave toxins behind; the body can then be buried without a coffin. While not ideal, I vastly prefer this scenario to horses being shipped long distances across borders to slaughter, or being left out on their own to starve because that’s the only thing their owners can afford.
Also, some animal activists will shout that there simply is no horse surplus… this is an absolute lie. Slaughter has been outsourced out of sight, and given the number of unwanted horses turning up at the rescue where I worked, and the number of horses on their waiting list, I can vouch firsthand for a definite surplus of these animals. In this economy, people are giving up cats and dogs in droves; horses cost FAR more money to maintain and their situation is therefore much more dire.
While I’m not a fan of slaughter per se, I want to see a humane, environmentally sound method of dealing with equine death, and neither mass chemical euthanasia nor “warehousing” hundreds to thousands of unwanted horses in an underfinanced sanctuary will properly address that. If bringing back slaughter in this country reduces long, painful, deadly trips in crowded trailers to Mexico, or prevents horses from being turned loose to fend for themselves and likely die of starvation, then bring it back until we can do better. The current situation is simply NOT acceptable.








Basically, my stance. While slaughter is not ideal, it is a better solution then


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## aubie (Aug 24, 2013)

More thoughts -

The AVMA is not opposed to slaughter for the same reason the AMA is not opposed to abortion. It's a slippery slope that they feel could lead to limiting their ability to practice and treat patients.

peta and hsus each receive 30 million plus each year in donations. That could go along way in the care of horses. But despite what they protray , they are not in the care business. Among other things, they are a lobbyist groups primarily. 

The heart of this problem is the same usual suspects. Stupidity, sorryness, self absorbedness. Imagine what rescues would look like if they only had to care for horses with owners who though good faith found themselves in life altering situations, such as illness of their own. But that's not reality. Frankly it never will be. As a society we get worse with each passing year.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

k9kenai said:


> specifically working as a dog trainer, I have seen a lot of clients "rescue" a dog with severe aggression, fear issues, etc that was totally unsuitable for their skill level as a dog owner. I ask them why and what they think they can do for this dog and a lot of them give me blank stares and ask me what I mean and that they assumed that the dog could be worked with as any other dog. When I explain to them the psychology behind such severe issues and the amount of training, work, and potential liability issues that can occur, some of them scoff and don't believe me and that dog winds up in the shelter a few weeks later with a bite warning attached to its cage and is scheduled for euthanasia.


I responded to an ad for a Great Dane a few years ago. The dog growled at me continuously for about ten minutes while I sat on the floor and talked to the owners. After a long period of ignoring it, it finally dropped the aggression act and settled down. I took it for a long walk and left. When I returned a few days later, the dog went through the whole routine again, this time taking even longer to calm down. I took the dog home for an afternoon to observe its behavior and interaction with my wife and adult son. 

My conclusion was the dog was "shy-sharp" or whatever the current term is for dogs that are aggressive because they are afraid. I had a Doberman once with a milder case, and with a dog the size of a Great Dane the consequences seemed potentially disastrous. I read half a dozen books looking for a training regimen that would mitigate the dog's issues. My conclusion was I could help the dog if I wanted to make that my mission in life and drop a number of other interests, including my horses. So I regretfully said sorry, I can't take this dog. I was sick about it for weeks, because I couldn't imagine who would succeed with him.

I later learned that the dog had a very bad reputation with a local groomer and that it had bitten one of the family's small children, and that the housewife was terrified of it. A dozen dogs could have been retrained and given loving homes for the effort required to just keep this dog from injuring someone.

I'm sorry people, not every animal can be saved. And with the extraordinary resources required by ill-bred, ill-behaved, or simply physically ill animals, there is a time and place for euthanasia.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

Humane slaughter done professionally and with respect here in the United States would be the best solution. We can't completely avoid this need. 

I'm absolutely in favor of finding any possible solution to avoid slaughter.

This is a really complicated problem that we won't solve here. I'm not even going to enumerate the reasons there are so many unwanted horses, we all know them.

It is also very complicated because there are a lot of well intentioned people who don't know anything at all about horses getting involved (HSUS) and have unrealistic expectations. A 34 year old skinny Saddlebread Mare with hardly any teeth left is not abused, she is just really **** old and it is about her time. Can't tell a west coast elite who has never seen a horse turd that though, they just see "#ABUSE!".

We need more smart equestrians getting in front of this that have realistic solutions, and not just social media type campaigning which is largely ineffective.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Have completed my unofficial local survey regarding dead cattle; in fact no-one I talked to had ever taken any cattle to a dump or ever heard of anyone who had. 

Unanimously dead dogs, cats, and horses were buried. Unanimously dead cattle were put in a pile, covered with trees, limbs and "stuff" then burned. Nothing was left out to rot or to feed wild animals that may then endanger their other animals. 

No one had ever heard of having a carcass hauled off to the dump or anywhere else. 

Those that needed to be put down were done with a bullet to the head. This is all referring to farmers. The cattle here also grow up grass fed, not grain fed. Grain is fed only the last two weeks of their lives. 

IMO we do not need anyone dictating what we can breed or not breed, but those that overbreed in an effort to get that one special horse, need to just shoot and burn the rest, not make a measly profit on the poor horses that do not meet their owners goals. 

IMO there are many breeders that are raising them just for slaughter. That needs to stop, and those people will stop when there is no market.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

It will stop the small number that raise horses directly for the slaughter market, but it will not solve the problem of feral horses in holding pens that are not adopted, nor the backyard breeder, who just never gets around to gelding a colt, and runs them with mares.
We here see the result of that all the time, at the all breed horse sale in Innisfail.
Fat horses, never halter broke, that just roamed some back pasture, until that owner finally decided to do something with them
I volunteered at a local rescue this past week, and it was an eye opener.
Yes, there are some nice young hroses that I hope will be adopted, and in fact,am thinking of adopting one myself, even though they are all grades
Then there are crippled horses, horses that are down right dangerous, several blind horses and one with a sarcoid that has gone malignant
There are no un wanted cattle=just some that wind up dead, and are usually hauled to a bone yard. They all have owners
No, dead cattle here are not burned. They are hauled to a bone yard, on that rancher's land, and left for predators
The cattle that were burned, was during the bSE out break
Many un wanted horses have been abandoned, or left to starve in some back pasture
The entire point being, cattle are bred according to supply and demand, while horses, unfortunately are not.
Yes, if you have live stock, you will also have dead stock, but that is not what we are talking about-the individual hroses owned by responsible owners that either die or are put down, and then either sent to be rendered or buried.
We are talking of the huge amount of UN WANTED horses, that don;t die, but simply need a solution to mange their number, with many of those hroses subjected to neglect and starvation
Yes, we need regulations to manage the amount of horses being bred, because self regulation is not working, or we would not have the problem of un wanted hroses in the first place!
Cattle are livestock, bred for either meat or milk production No one breeds cattle without some regulation according to the law of supply and demand . Sure, some die, or need to be put down, but there are not surplus cattle that need to be put down simply because they are un wanted, bred beyond supply and demand 
How many un wanted cattle are roaming around, bred with no purpose?
It is not livestock that is abandoned often, but companion animals, like dogs and cats, and also now hroses
I have yet to hear of cattle being dumped in someone's pasture, becuase the owner no longer wants to feed them. That is happening with horses=just like we get people from the city, dumping cats and dogs in rural areas.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Feral horses in holding pens will be the easiest to shoot and put out of their misery. Then the burn pile, or bone pile but that would get smelly and attract flies, and predators. 

The smallest numbers of unwanted horses would be those backyard breeders, and for them euthanasia from a vet, if they were the responsible type. Otherwise the local shelters could then seize any horses that were being mistreated or neglected (same as they do now).

Good of you to volunteer at the local rescue, and see what is there. Did you perchance ask why they kept the crippled and dangerous horses? Did you discover why they don't just put those poor horses down?

PS - my cattle survey was just to appease my own curiosity; have never been involved with raising cattle and needed to educate myself. 

Around here, seem to be a lot of folks that put horses in a special category. A good portion of the population has a horse or two, and it is quite common to have horses live out their days in the pasture. They don't in general, do a lot of "trading up"


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Smilie said:


> Then there are crippled horses, horses that are down right dangerous, several blind horses and one with a sarcoid that has gone malignant


I think the problem with these rescues is they depend on donations from like-minded people, and both proprietors and supporters share the goal of keeping every animal alive. Here in the US, most communities have a humane society that handles stray dogs and cats. The American Humane Society estimates that 56% of dogs and 71% of cats that enter a shelter are euthanized. Those numbers represent sick and dangerous animals, and simple need to focus resources on animals suitable for adoption.

Horse rescues would accomplish more by adopting a similar pragmatic approach, but I suspect most of them exist because their founders are incapable of that degree of detachment.


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## Spec (Jun 13, 2015)

The thrift shopper in me loves the thought of rescuing and reusing good horses from the slaughter pipeline. 
The animal lover in me loves the fact that horses who are mistreated and/or damaged beyond reasonable repair can be humanely euthanized AND USED by the (weird) people who enjoy horse meat. When the quality of life isn't there, it's time to go.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AnitaAnne said:


> Feral horses in holding pens will be the easiest to shoot and put out of their misery. Then the burn pile, or bone pile but that would get smelly and attract flies, and predators.
> 
> The smallest numbers of unwanted horses would be those backyard breeders, and for them euthanasia from a vet, if they were the responsible type. Otherwise the local shelters could then seize any horses that were being mistreated or neglected (same as they do now).
> 
> ...


Lets just say that shelter takes in anything, which I have a problem with, as funds should go to animals that can be re-homed, made useful
They don;t just take hroses. There are 'rescue' full grown pigs there, a gander that will attack you, lamas that spit, mini horses that are all being treated for cUshings and also a bunch of rescue chickens for the Hutterite colony
My friend, who volunteers there every Friday, told me that at one time they also had some of those rabbits from Canmore. Domestic bunnies had gone feral there, and since that little town is just outside of Banff, attracted cougars
There were some animal rights people that did not want those rabbits over running that town put down, and suggested they all be captured and sterilized!Yes, that is a very workable solution!!
Anyway, seeing the menage there, I saw no point in asking the logistics!


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

<---- we were the recipients of 'unwanted' cattle a few years ago. I went out to feed one morning and there were six ribby cattle in with my horses.

One had some distinctive markings, and another neighbor recognized him and did some legwork. Turns out the original owners couldn't afford to feed them any longer and didn't want to 'traumatize' the cattle by taking them to the salebarn, nor did they want to pay the sale commission. I suspect they didn't want anyone to know how skinny those steers were...

So, my dad took a bill of sale over and had them sign it and bought the cattle for $1.00 each, making it clear that the owners were aware we could do what we wanted with the cattle, including selling or eating them. They just wanted to be rid of them and not paying for feed anymore. From the looks of things, they hadn't been paying for feed for awhile, but that's beside the point...

The cattle spent the summer getting fat on grass. One shorthorn went to a friend for a companion to her daughter's 4H heifer she couldn't bear to sell and decided she wanted to start a small breeding herd. The rest were steers and ended up in the freezer. Took them to the local meat locker. They came off the trailer one at a time, went into a stall where they noticed the big tub of feed, went over and got a few bites, and 'bang'-- shot cleanly and humanely with no stress. Done. 

So yes, there are occasionally 'excess' cattle, but unlike horses, there's a ready market for them--- the sale barn or the slaughterhouse or the meat locker.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Forty or fifty years ago I read a book titled "When Legends Die". Although the book got sort of repetitive in the middle, I was captivated enough to read all night until sunup when I finished the book. (I'm a very slow reader needing to analyse every word)

A movie was made of the book but I haven't watched it as the movies seem to require leaving so much out. But the thoughts behind the book have been part and partial to me ever since reading it.

I would that all animals could be given the respect in providing us food as told in the book. It's all fiction of course, but not necessarily the principle behind it.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Will admit to educating myself more since this whole thread started. Did not in fact know what a rendering truck was. Looking up rendering trucks led me to learning about rendering plants :eek_color: 

Learning about rendering plants has educated me on where all that stuff goes; into animal feed (!) which has led me to consider the health issues facing the nation as a whole, admittedly caused by the food choices available. 

My conclusion from all these research has caused an unexpected change in my lifestyle. I was already feeding my chickens vegetarian feed (they catch any meat they eat, lol) and my dogs have always enjoyed the whole goodness of Bil jac food made from human-grade chicken and no rendered fat. 

Now it is time for me to eliminate all commercially prepared food that is unhealthy. I don't want the beef I eat to be fed rendering plant scraps. From now on, all my beef will be grass fed, all the chicken I eat will be vegetarian fed without antibiotics. My eggs already are organic. 

I am only one person, but change is happening and more people need to know where their food is coming from. Many people here are beginning to raise their own food as opposed to purchasing mass produced. 

I realize this post is completely off topic; I do sincerely apologize to all for that. 

Don't plan on making anymore posts here anyway; believe I have made my position clear. IMO this topic has run its course, but it is not my thread to judge. 

I pray many folks that have participated and have read it maybe are considering alternative solutions.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Yep, we raised broiler chickens commercially when I was young. They were culled at the slaughter house and guess where the culled chickens went. Yep, into chicken feed. Chickens get lots of antibiotics. Much of it winds up in the skin. I won't eat chicken grown commercially.

When my youngest son was taking cooking in school they required all utensils used in preparing raw chicken to be washed two times thoroughly.

When the people were dressing/butchering chicken they had to be especially careful not to cut the intestines. Finally, Simmons and others persuaded the inspection to allow just cutting the chickens straight in half. Guts and all. Then washing the remains. Yup. I don't eat chicken.

Walmart and a few others are soon to go cage free eggs only. I did not know how bad it had gotten until I read Temple Grandin and some laying hens can't even walk they've been bred to lay only eggs and some have lost the use of their legs.

I'm planning to get my own laying hens soon but until then I pay the price of cage free eggs.

Am I off topic yet??


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Oh well, one more off topic post can't hurt...
@Hondo thanks for all the helpful information you have provided! 

Wish we were closer, I would give you some nice fresh eggs. I give all my extras to people at work. I refuse their offers of payment. They bring me a carton, and I fill it up with lovely eggs 

They love my eggs, even ones that eat fresh eggs from other people prefer the flavor of mine. The food fed to my girls really does make a difference! Store eggs are blah. Bland, watery and odd looking. 

Now I have to closely study my horse's feed. Change is ahead for them most likely too :wink:


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

I see people getting all excited about all this "organic" food. Unless YOU grow it, raise it, feed it, butcher it. You don't really know do you? Any food we buy at the store is subject to guidelines, inspections, criteria of all sorts. 

I refuse to pay the huge price of "organic" bananas when they are exactly the same as the same old bananas I've been buying. Same with beef, chicken and pork. Cage free is an improvement, but the vast amount of hens required to produce all those eggs crammed into a barn. Well it's not perfect, but better. 

I just acquired my own chickens that are now laying. We actually rarely have to supplement our egg supply with store bought. I now have found a supply of pork that is home raised. I can buy a half pig at a time twice a year. Still looking for the same type of lead for beef. We've raised our own in the past but the kids are gone and so we don't need that much. 

The economics of raising food needs to be considered. Quality feed is expensive. In a perfect world I'd raise all my own food, but this world is not perfect and we all just try to do the best we can.

Ok, now THAT was off topic!


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Cage Free eggs only refer to birds that are not housed in Battery Cages. There used to be a square footage requirement to be considered 'cage free' but I couldn't find it this evening. A Cage Free hen does not ever need to be allowed to see the outside, it can be kept inside in a barn for its entire life. It does not do away with debeaking or manipulated molting. Pature Raised or Free Range chickens have to be allowed outside, but it doesn't say for how long. 

Support your local farmers and buy fresh at a farmer's market or direct from the farm. Once you do, you won't eat months old eggs from the store again.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Blue said:


> I see people getting all excited about all this "organic" food. Unless YOU grow it, raise it, feed it, butcher it. You don't really know do you? Any food we buy at the store is subject to guidelines, inspections, criteria of all sorts.
> 
> I refuse to pay the huge price of "organic" bananas when they are exactly the same as the same old bananas I've been buying. Same with beef, chicken and pork. Cage free is an improvement, but the vast amount of hens required to produce all those eggs crammed into a barn. Well it's not perfect, but better.
> 
> ...



Of course buying from your farmer neighbors, or raising your own food, is by far the best, but it isn't practical for most people. That's why that Organic label has to mean something. Which it indeed does. 

It is not true that you "just don't know". Certified Organic does mean something very specific. There's a long list of requirements, there are inspections, and it is both arduous and expensive to get certified and stay certified. I know this because I was there (literally -- In the late 1970s I was working in alternative agriculture) at the time that a national group of very committed, passionate farmers and growers fought tooth and nail for years for the term Organic to mean something real and measurable and regulated. They were opposed by big ag every single step of the way. They won though. Those are not the "same old bananas". 

Cage Free is quite analogous to the anti-horse-slaughter movement. It took one thing that looked horrible (battery cages), and eliminated it. There, fixed it! Except hens out of their cages, but in terribly overcrowded, force-fed, constantly-lit conditions, cannibalize each other. Any chicken keeper knows that feather picking is a sign of overcrowding and stress that will continue if not addressed until the lowest hens are eaten alive. But let's just keep that beautiful image of hens frolicking in a meadow going . . . just like every unwanted horse deserves a forever home. By the way, certified Organic eggs are the only humanely-produced commercial eggs you can buy. 

To me it is all about making sane, sustainable choices, not just for ourselves or even our own children, but for the future of the whole planet.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

*Avna* I stand by my statement that unless you grew it or at least witnessed it's care, you REALLY DON'T KNOW. Do you seriously think I'm going to believe anything a government entity tells me they "inspected"? I think not. This is not the '70's or even the '80's. 

Sorry, but the government says they're going to "take care of the horses", "protect the wolves", make sanctuaries for the bears. Have they? They say they have our best interest in mind. Thats a joke. Our inspectors and agencies do what pays the most money. There is NO money in healthy food.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I totally believe in eating animals that are grass fed, where applicable, and live in non intensive type livestock operations
As for the label organic not so sure. I believe in supporting local farmers, growing my own food, but the word organic has the same sort of mindset as NH horsemanship, or 'natural alternatives, without really investigating that product, sold on a label 
For instance, organic farmers declare their products free from COMMERCIAL,pesticides, while freely using 'organic pesticides, often in high concentration, and some of those organic pesticides are worse for the environment then commercial pesticides

From the article below, read on, using the link

'Acute toxicity (measured by half of a lethal dose, or LD50) is very often used, but rates of exposure, persistence in the environment, chronic chemical effects, and impact on off-target animals and plants also are important considerations. One criticism of organic pesticides, in fact, is that a farmer has to use a lot of them to get the same effect as conventional pesticide. If it’s true that “the poison is in the dosage,” then some organic pesticides (like sulfur or copper) do not look very benign.

A September article in the GLP outlined just how extensively organic farmers use pesticides. Plant scientist Steve Savage broke out the latest California pesticide use data, dating to 2013, based on pounds. The categories that have organic-approved active ingredients are indicated with the USDA logo and together these comprise 55 percent of the total pounds applied. These materials are extensively used by both organic and non-organic growers. '

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/...demonization-organic-farmers-widely-use-them/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.co...-101-organic-farmre/ing-conventional-agricult

Far as rendering trucks, here in Canada, fees have gone way up, specifically due to policy changes since the bSE outbreak, with spinal cord, brain tissue not allowed . Thus, at one time the rendering truck would haul away an animal that was put down for free. Now they charge by the pound


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Blue said:


> *Avna* I stand by my statement that unless you grew it or at least witnessed it's care, you REALLY DON'T KNOW. Do you seriously think I'm going to believe anything a government entity tells me they "inspected"? I think not. This is not the '70's or even the '80's.
> 
> Sorry, but the government says they're going to "take care of the horses", "protect the wolves", make sanctuaries for the bears. Have they? They say they have our best interest in mind. Thats a joke. Our inspectors and agencies do what pays the most money. There is NO money in healthy food.


Lets face it, man has upset the balance of nature
Protect the wolves? Tell that to the ranchers affected by the wolves imported to the Yellowstone, from Alberta, or the ranchers that live in southern Alberta, where wolves, unlike cougars , will switch from deer to cattle, soon as they are out in summer grazing
At the Ya Ha Tinda, the wolves have decimated the elk calves, so that one fall, we saw zero calves in the herds of elk, and with the elk changing their migration routes,or not migrating at all, due to wolf predation, and, moving into ranching communities
There have been no tags for grizzly bears for at least 20 years. Those bears are also moving east, with more and more human encounters, plus have lost their natural fear of man
Take care of the feral horses-well how? With natural predators gone in many areas, with those horses multiplying exponentially, how can they be 'taken care of, without some cull policy?
No, nether wolves nor bears should be exterminated, but neither can they just be allowed To breed and multiply at will.
Far as the wild horse , versus feral horse debate, that has gone on a long, long time, with extremists at both ends.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Blue said:


> *Avna* I stand by my statement that unless you grew it or at least witnessed it's care, you REALLY DON'T KNOW. Do you seriously think I'm going to believe anything a government entity tells me they "inspected"? I think not. This is not the '70's or even the '80's.
> 
> Sorry, but the government says they're going to "take care of the horses", "protect the wolves", make sanctuaries for the bears. Have they? They say they have our best interest in mind. Thats a joke. Our inspectors and agencies do what pays the most money. There is NO money in healthy food.


Well, to my mind every separate blanket statement there would require a long researched historical discussion to get to the truth of. Thinking of 'the government' as one solid thing, the same all the way through like brick, is laughably simplistic, just for starters. But now we are getting into that thing, politics, which makes people's brains take a trip to nowhere land, so I will not respond further.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Smilie said:


> For instance, organic farmers declare their products free from COMMERCIAL,pesticides, while freely using 'organic pesticides, often in high concentration, and some of those organic pesticides are worse for the environment then commercial pesticides


Exactly! Yes, organic does mean something -- it means the grower has jumped through all the hoops. Whether that results in a healthier product is up for grabs. To date, there is zero evidence that eating organic has any health benefit.

If you want to eat organic, don't blame your grower for the astronomical prices. It costs a fortune to meet those standards.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I paid extra to buy my Guinea pigs organic carrots last week, but that was only because they were bigger and fatter. The regular ones were all tiny. 

There. Now we have gone from slaughter to rendering plants to chickens to organic to wolves, bears & elks, to politics and finally to guinea pigs. All in two pages.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

My wife's first pet after we got married was a guinea pig. They are cute little things. We let him run loose on the concrete floor of our apartment. A loose guinea pig will chew everything it encounters, just as a means of inspection. The overall effect could be compared to strapping a running chainsaw to a skateboard and letting it just bounce around the room.

I still laugh at the memory of his "Whoop, whoop, whoop!" every time he heard the refrigerator door open. He did love his carrots.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Joel Reiter said:


> Exactly! Yes, organic does mean something -- it means the grower has jumped through all the hoops. Whether that results in a healthier product is up for grabs. To date, there is zero evidence that eating organic has any health benefit.
> 
> If you want to eat organic, don't blame your grower for the astronomical prices. It costs a fortune to meet those standards.


I personally know growers who never went for the certification although, according to them, their practices are identical with the organic agriculture industry's, just because it was too laborious and expensive. Since they are local, long-established (in a couple cases several generations worth of established), and well-respected in the community, I don't doubt their claims at all. 

I don't actually buy organic for the health benefits nearly so much as for the health of the soil, the water, the ecosystem, the air, the fish, and not least, the field workers. Also, many things taste better, whether they are better for you or not. Other things I can't tell the difference. I'm no foodie.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Joel Reiter said:


> My wife's first pet after we got married was a guinea pig. They are cute little things. We let him run loose on the concrete floor of our apartment. A loose guinea pig will chew everything it encounters, just as a means of inspection. The overall effect could be compared to strapping a running chainsaw to a skateboard and letting it just bounce around the room.
> 
> I still laugh at the memory of his "Whoop, whoop, whoop!" every time he heard the refrigerator door open. He did love his carrots.


My son and his better half were in Peru last year, Both are active hikers and not the touristy type, so stayed with some Peruvian families, in a sort of 'bed and breakfast, as part of some extended hikes
G pigs were running around that dirt floor, and served as a regular entree for the owners, although my son got to dine on lama steaks!
He said those lama steaks were quite good, so asked him if he was going to switch from raising cattle
'Nope', was his reply, and then said, "I rather be kicked then spit at!"
Of course, my darker association with G pigs, being a lab tech!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I grew up on a farm, with chickens running around loose, pigs fed garden scraps (lots in Ontario!, and drank un pasteurized milk, right from the cow
My step Dad made his own sausage. We grew about everything we ate, including fruit , like apples, peaches, pears.Never sprayed those trees, and just ate around the worm holes
Heck, we even made our own soap through saponification, rendering fat from butchered pigs, I believe. Mom cooked with lard
Thus, not surprising she suffered from heart disease, as did my step father. They ate that \natural Old farmer German diet
Sounds idealistic, but not quite.We also grew tobacco, and I got green tobacco poisoning , just having nicotine absorbed through my skin, working in the stuff
I don't drink milk now, and find some farm eggs 'too strong'
Oh, and I never had the urge to smoke!
Oh yes, every Sunday morning, there was a rooster, hopping around after his head was chopped off, destined for Sunday dinner


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Well! I just learned the difference between cage free and free range eggs. I'll have to check next time I buy. But I'll soon have my own. Nearest farmers market is 30 miles away.

When I was young we had an organic garden. We didn't know it. Just could not afford store bought fertilizer, plus we had plenty of free fertilizer anyhow. Mom canned all our vegetables and fruits for the winter. We raised our own pork, beef, chickens, eggs, and milk.

There is just not enough land left on the planet for all to live like that anymore.

I read that it is all to blame on Louis Pasteur. His work brought on the germ theory which led to the sanitary sewer system in cities with the population of cities going astronomical. That was in a city sewer publication one year.

I like a lot of the technology that comes from the industrial revolution but the sad thing is when the industrial revolution is applied to the lives of innocent animals. That's just not right.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

"We have upset the balance of nature." This about sums it up.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, far as the industrial revolution, and Pasteur it not only affected animals but people.
No more Black Plagues, to keep human populations under control, no more high rates of child mortality, due to diseases like Small pox, thus an expodential increased demand on land and it's resources, thus increased modifications on how that food is produced
Those of us lucky enough to grow our food in a more 'natural' and healthy manner, are fortunate, but it is not a method that can supply the increased demand by people, with our population growing more and more un checked, and technology so we live longer
At one time, not so long ago, 45 was old.
My garden is fertilized organically, as I have a very good reserve of well rotted horse manure, cleaning that dry lott daily


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I got offered "organic beef" when at a meeting at a Ted Turner restaurant. I asked "Is that instead of "plastic" beef?" Poor suburban waitress. She was honest and giggled, saying "You're right. I don't know what the difference is."

The meat producers, and I would venture all farmers, in this country take our jobs seriously. We want to provide an affordable and safe product to the world. Well, some push the affordability bar pretty hard.


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## 6gun Kid (Feb 26, 2013)

Hondo said:


> A movie was made of the book but I haven't watched it as the movies seem to require leaving so much out..


 Don't know about the book, but it was a great rodeo flick. It was also Richard Widmark's last starring role in theatrical release.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

6gun Kid said:


> Don't know about the book, but it was a great rodeo flick. It was also Richard Widmark's last starring role in theatrical release.


Maybe I'll break down and buy the video. It was about much much more than rodeo although rodeo played a part in it. In the end it was more about who we are and how we treat animals and sometimes the why.

I was taught growing up on a small barely self sustaining farm that the animals deserved the same care we afforded for ourselves. Not exactly in words, but in actions.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

From eating guinea pigs in Ecuador to - Did you know hedgehogs run wild in some parts of Europe? I have family that finds them in the garden on a regular basis and occasionally in the house when the weather turns. She claims they are the mice of England. I personally beg to differ with her. I would much rather find them than mice or rats. At least they eat garden pests... Broilers by law (if it hasn't changed) are required to have no smaller space than 1/2 square foot. Most figure 8/10ths of a square foot. Layers the last ruling I saw was 72 sq inches but that was for cage raised. There is a push for all to move to cageless and the recommended (by HSUS if I read correctly) is 4 by 12 FOOT. Like that will ever happen. Backyard chicken raisers usually go with 4 sq foot per chicken as a general rule if they have time out from the coop.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> From eating guinea pigs in Ecuador to - Did you know hedgehogs run wild in some parts of Europe? I have family that finds them in the garden on a regular basis and occasionally in the house when the weather turns. She claims they are the mice of England. I personally beg to differ with her. I would much rather find them than mice or rats. At least they eat garden pests... Broilers by law (if it hasn't changed) are required to have no smaller space than 1/2 square foot. Most figure 8/10ths of a square foot. Layers the last ruling I saw was 72 sq inches but that was for cage raised. There is a push for all to move to cageless and the recommended (by HSUS if I read correctly) is 4 by 12 FOOT. Like that will ever happen. Backyard chicken raisers usually go with 4 sq foot per chicken as a general rule if they have time out from the coop.


My hens have a quarter acre. There's four of them. Their night coop is basically vertical because all they do is roost in it. I've never tasted eggs, any eggs, as good as mine. 

Hedgehogs don't run wild in Europe, they are a native species. They aren't rodents, they are insectivores related to moles and shrews. If they are the mice of England, what are all the English mice then?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

QtrBel said:


> Broilers by law (if it hasn't changed) are required to have no smaller space than 1/2 square foot. Most figure 8/10ths of a square foot. Layers the last ruling I saw was 72 sq inches but that was for cage raised. There is a push for all to move to cageless and the recommended (by HSUS if I read correctly) is 4 by 12 FOOT. Like that will ever happen. Backyard chicken raisers usually go with 4 sq foot per chicken as a general rule if they have time out from the coop.


That's it. I couldn't find the particulars the other day when I was trying to bring it up. And it doesn't say ANYWHERE that Cage Free birds ever have to be let out of the barn. I generally keep between 25-50 hens, and I'm thinking of doubling that and selling more eggs, wander where ever they please on 10 acres. They have a big run, a fairly large coop that has 3 roosting bars and 6 egg boxes. We let them out in the morning and make sure they're shut in after dusk. Of course we have some attrition due to hawks, owls and other wildlife, but I still won't keep them cooped. They may not live real long (3-5 years average) but they seem to be quite happy during their time with us.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Somehow it always comes back to chickens!! 

BTW mine have exactly 4x4 per bird in their pen. They rarely go in the coop, only to lay eggs which they do in one spot! They ignore the nest boxes and have a spot near the back (with the two golf balls, lol). 

Just put the babies in with the big girls tonight...will have some excitement in the morning :twisted:


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

Having seen 'cage free' chicken barns, one could make a case that the cages are better.... at least there the hens aren't trampling and pecking each other to death because there are still thousands of them in a building....


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

SilverMaple said:


> Having seen 'cage free' chicken barns, one could make a case that the cages are better.... at least there the hens aren't trampling and pecking each other to death because there are still thousands of them in a building....


It all boils down to being able to supply the numbers needed to feed people. The farmer's who contract with the big chicken and egg companies do what they're told to produce the numbers called for in their contracts.


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## Joel Reiter (Feb 9, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> It all boils down to being able to supply the numbers needed to feed people.


Right now the local Wal-Mart and Aldi's are selling extra-large eggs for 42 cents a dozen. We sell our eggs for $3 a dozen. We are losing money. And we aren't even organic. The cages are probably cruel but they certainly are efficient.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Joel Reiter said:


> Right now the local Wal-Mart and Aldi's are selling extra-large eggs for 42 cents a dozen. We sell our eggs for $3 a dozen. We are losing money. And we aren't even organic. The cages are probably cruel but they certainly are efficient.


The HUGE difference between us & Walmart & Aldi's is our eggs are not months old. Walmart and Aldi's buy in huge quantities and keep the eggs for months before they ever hit the shelves. Another reason they're so pale and runny.


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## EstrellaandJericho (Aug 12, 2017)

This is true. I bought my big boy off a killpen, paid probably too much, but less than $1000. Its definitely an appeal to emotion, targeting ladies with kind hearts. The next week I see another for $1500!! When I commented "wow, they must want her to go to Mexico" they banned and blocked me. My mustang is spooky but intellegent and sensitive. We are working through his nerves. I am happy to have him, he wasn't a bad investment. IMO no horse is a bad horse and any problem can be fixed. Though, I would love to find out where he came from. I didnt think BLM mustangs could go to slaughter.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

All BLM mustangs are supposed to be branded and have papers. I have a friend that years ago helped on a roundup in Montana on a large ranch that had 3,000 horses running wild. The kept some and culled some. Probably back then several went to slaughter. Mustang is just a wild horse of any breed.

Having lived wild they are tough. Good luck! If I had one I'd figure taking a year just to get to know and trust each other.


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## EstrellaandJericho (Aug 12, 2017)

Thank you! Yeah im taking things really slow with him. I have no rush to be back in the saddle.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

FYI for those who are in the market for chickens...TSC has some right now, straight run and pullets available in my store...4 pullets less than yesterday morning :lol:

I don't try to sell my eggs, as I tell friends I'm not a business and don't want to be. Have been offered $5/carton for them though. 
@EstrellaandJericho Congratulations on your new horse! Scams abound but as long as you are happy, that is all that counts.


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## EstrellaandJericho (Aug 12, 2017)

@AnitaAnn I just got some chickens from there actually!! Cute babies. Learning lots about chickens. 

And thank you! Jericho is definitely a blessing. I think the prison horses go through that particular "kill pen". He wasn't very expensive and there was a network of rescuers who gave me a killer deal on transport. It seems like the rescues in the area are super active trying to save the few they can... Still it is definitely an appeal to emotion and urgency.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Avna said:


> My hens have a quarter acre. There's four of them. Their night coop is basically vertical because all they do is roost in it. I've never tasted eggs, any eggs, as good as mine.
> 
> Hedgehogs don't run wild in Europe, they are a native species. They aren't rodents, they are insectivores related to moles and shrews. If they are the mice of England, what are all the English mice then?


I realize that. My dear cousin though is clueless. Barely passed biology. She just finds it hysterically funny that her childhood pets now have to be routed out of her home. I figure her cats eat all the mice or she'd be seeing them too. I would have figured they'd go for the hedgehogs as well. 

I'm similar to DCA. Mine have a coop, no fenced area though. They get turned out after 3pm and they return to their pens voluntarily after dusk and we shut them in. It helps prevent some of the predation. They tend to traipse through on a schedule and turning the chickens out after they pass lowers loss. Every now and then they deviate and find a meal. When it becomes an issue we lock them up for a few days to break the habit.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

QtrBel said:


> I realize that. My dear cousin though is clueless. Barely passed biology. She just finds it hysterically funny that her childhood pets now have to be routed out of her home. I figure her cats eat all the mice or she'd be seeing them too. I would have figured they'd go for the hedgehogs as well.
> 
> I'm similar to DCA. Mine have a coop, no fenced area though. They get turned out after 3pm and they return to their pens voluntarily after dusk and we shut them in. It helps prevent some of the predation. They tend to traipse through on a schedule and turning the chickens out after they pass lowers loss. Every now and then they deviate and find a meal. When it becomes an issue we lock them up for a few days to break the habit.


Willful ignorance is un-fightable. 

Since I live inside a forest of many thousands of acres, I have to electranet my chicken pasture or they would all disappear in a day or two. I've kept chickens here for about 25 years and I've had a couple dozen hens vanish in two hours of inattention. Several times. My system works for me in this particular place.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

It's rare for us to have one disappear between 3 and dusk - I assume because of activity. The dogs are out, we are out, the cattle and horses up close to the house lots going on. Otherwise the cattle and horses are way out in the back or up top, dogs in the house and we are at work or school. Our problem with the trees has been having some breeds prefer that to the pen for roosting - don't have those breeds any more. We live in a heavily forested area but it is in patches on the property and then totally surrounds the property. We have one breed that prefers to roost in the Pittosporum that is against the house and the rest don't go out too far into the trees when loose. 

It is so hard to pass over when someone posts from the auctions about this or that horse is going to be loaded and only X$$ will save him/her. My heart wants to rescue them all but that isn't possible. Too many you see more than once as they were unsuitable temperament wise or went to someone that couldn't handle them because they knew nothing or little more than nothing or the expense of vet care would have been too much. What burns me the most though are the ones that set such high prices on animals supposedly going to slaughter. You are either legitimately trying to save and selling for kill price them or you are out to make a profit on a horrible situation.


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## EstrellaandJericho (Aug 12, 2017)

QtrBel said:


> It is so hard to pass over when someone posts from the auctions about this or that horse is going to be loaded and only X$$ will save him/her. My heart wants to rescue them all but that isn't possible. Too many you see more than once as they were unsuitable temperament wise or went to someone that couldn't handle them because they knew nothing or little more than nothing or the expense of vet care would have been too much. What burns me the most though are the ones that set such high prices on animals supposedly going to slaughter. You are either legitimately trying to save and selling for kill price them or you are out to make a profit on a horrible situation.


I completely agree with you. What I didnt realize about this particular group is in their TOS or whatever, it said you couldn't negotiate or question the prices or you got banned. That is what happened to me. Oh well, I don't need to get another, 2 horses is enough!!! 

But it really grinded my gears... The least you could do, is allow the people (not me I was kinda rude) who were politely asking why to have an answer. Some were upwards of $1000 who were well broke and in great condition. Again, it just seemed like they wanted the horses dead rather than saved. A lot of rescues were getting their butts handed to them over the cost. 

Jericho was cheap because he probably wasn't taking anyones bullpoop. If you don't approach him respectfully, he won't let you catch him. He is nervous and needs some serious desensitization. I feel like he will be a great mount when I can break that barrier and gain his full trust. But honestly, it was my previous experience, nights of staying up watching Warwick, Rick, even Clinton, and my neighbor that helped this really be successful. Some people don't have the drive or experience and get in over their heads. Even buying a horse from someone reputable can be a hassle. They bute him before you meet him so he will seem even tempered. They could fudge his age... I wouldn't trust humans to be decent but I trust horses to be horses.

Let's just say I'm not falling for it again. I was very lucky. Honestly, he was a prayer answered. Even with him being the particular fellow he is.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

whisperbaby22 said:


> "We have upset the balance of nature." This about sums it up.


Biology 101: Nature has her own population controls when predation fails: Disease, starvation, infighting.

Upset the balance indeed - we've not let nature do her thing when it comes to a LOT of animals (Horses?) because either we're arrogant enough to think we can do better ourselves (Hey, thanks for the African Honey Bees in North America, whoever had that bright idea), or we care too much (BLM having so much trouble thinning out the feral horses due to bleeding hearts that have no idea what it takes to keep or maintain a single horse, let alone many). It hurts the human heart to see a lion bring down a baby zebra or a gazelle, or a pack or orcas toy with seals and yet - lions and orcas have to eat too.

Then... when we take this one step further and apply it to ourselves - as a species Man has, for a long time, cheated Nature with science/medicine, and technology. We have not just upset the balance of nature, we have overpopulated because we can cheat her checks and balances.

Sooner or later - there's going to be something come along we can't cheat, we can't beat. 

Nature will not be denied indefinitely.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, we have two immature little power boys, playing with that nuclear red button, so maybe the short story, if anyone else read it in high school, 'By The Waters of Babylon\, ", might solve the human population. The first Planet of The Apes, was built around that premise.
Then again,we might just be thrust into the age of pre antibiotics, with the emergence of super bugs, and no new antibiotics on the horizon!
Climate change, a new virus, a mutation so that Ebola becomes air born?????


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Don't forget about a huge meteor strike.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Well, every time I turn the news on these days, I hear my nearly 70 year old mom saying: There's just too **** many of us.

I'm going with superbug getting us.

But anyway - there's just no good answer to this problem... any of the problems in this thread.


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

My bet is on a pandemic disease if we don't get nuked, first. The world will take care of controlling population one way or another. Geneticists say there's a bottleneck of human genes ever 10,000 years or so--- a large percentage (80%+) of the world's population dies off one way or another. We haven't had one for awhile and we're long past due.

Google 'emerging pandemic disease threat' for an eye-opening experience.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Ate a delicious, juicy, organic, vegetarian, grass fed half pound of steak tonight. Yummy. Love this new healthier lifestyle


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Well... I think the last time I stopped by this thread was way back on page 3. What a difference page 20 is. :lol:


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

My blood pressure got so low with my make over eating habits that I've discontinued my BP medications and am still in the high teens.

Haven't tried vegetarian steak. What's that?


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

Hondo said:


> My blood pressure got so low with my make over eating habits that I've discontinued my BP medications and am still in the high teens.
> 
> Haven't tried vegetarian steak. What's that?


Wonderful to have improved your health!!! 

Meant _vegetarian fed_ beef. Grass feed. Organic, No antibiotics.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

Quick story.

Years ago my son wanted to raise a steer for FFA. Ok, we're new in town with literally no contacts but of course my farrier can get us a good angus steer calf. Cool. He gets it to us and we house and feed the pretty little thing. FFA leader is useless, we're just trying to figure this out, but the steer is acting way more aggressive than we'd expected. You can all figure where this is going.

So tag and weigh day at the fairgrounds rolls around and we get this guy in the trailer and head to town. Vet checks him and sure enough he's only "half cut". Still one testicle. Really not a good situation. Naturally there's all the "name" families around no help at all!

So humiliated I get ahold of my farrier and ream him up one side and down the other. In the meantime officials are wanting to speak with our leader wondering why we weren't getting any help. Get this, said leader was out of town on a hunt.

Get the other testicle removed and wait. By now, the poor dear is going into shock and we are having to deal with a myriad of health problems. Never one to quit, son spent his time taking him and teaching to lead and bathe and groom. Did an excellent job too.

Every time we fed that steer according to FFA and 4H guidelines he got sick and we'd have to back off and put him on grass and start over. In the end we didn't make weight so we just turn that steer loose on the pasture next door for a year and a half!

He finally grew and filled out. When we finally sent him to the butcher we got so much meat we needed another freezer and it was absolutely the best beef we'd ever had.

Moral of the story is that grass/vegetarian fed is what a cow's system is designed for. And a happy healthy animal is better than a stressed miserable one.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

NOw, if only horse owners would take some of that to heart, versus feeding all kinds of concentrates, while ignoring the importance of forage, being what should be the main part of any horse's diet, and how a horse is designed to eat.
Does not mean we need to eat that horse, like the steer, but we need to let the horse eat the way nature designed him to eat-and that is not two meals a day, with a heavy emphasis on 'hard feeds'
Just getting the thread back to horses at least, LOL!


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## EstrellaandJericho (Aug 12, 2017)

Smilie said:


> NOw, if only horse owners would take some of that to heart, versus feeding all kinds of concentrates, while ignoring the importance of forage, being what should be the main part of any horse's diet, and how a horse is designed to eat.
> Does not mean we need to eat that horse, like the steer, but we need to let the horse eat the way nature designed him to eat-and that is not two meals a day, with a heavy emphasis on 'hard feeds'
> Just getting the thread back to horses at least, LOL!


preach it!!!

I need to get my fence back up so Jericho can get back on grass. The coastal prices here are insane... But he needs all the hay he can get right now.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

EstrellaandJericho said:


> preach it!!!
> 
> I need to get my fence back up so Jericho can get back on grass. The coastal prices here are insane... But he needs all the hay he can get right now.


Well, hay is also forage, and if horses can't be on grass for some reason, like being IR, then of course their forage is mainly , if not all, hay
That is not the real problem. The problem occurs when horses are only fed twice a day or so, without having any pasture, thus sitting with an empty stomach for too long, and then also fed large amounts of concentrates,like grain


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

On longer rides where there is not much forage or time for it I carry pellets fed at about a pound per hour to avoid the empty stomach, providing there is water available along the way. Not sure how much dry matter is good for them without adequate water.

Being involved in horses has caused me to understand why the original communities here in the US were spaced about 10-15 miles apart. Many are now only ghost towns or town sites now with others having main streets with empty storefronts. 

Wouldn't it be nice to have the towns still closely spaced with connecting trails with feed and water available? I think I might do some horseback travel. As it is, the logistics of traveling a distance horseback is somewhat daunting.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, we are lucky in the fact that there are always places to stop and graze our horses,unless of course, we are riding up above the tree line, where there is not much else besides rock, but that is not where we ride, of course,going any distance, but rather a part of a day ride.
When one rides on an extended trip, you wind up taking pack horses, both to bring along some comforts for yourself, and to at least pack some concentrated feed for the horses, to augment grazing
Riding in the back country here, beyond the distance of a staging area,requires horses knowing how to picket or hobble.
I have not done a pack trip for quite a few years, but rather have just ridden out for day rides.Our horses get to stop at times and graze, plus we stop at noon to let them graze for awhile, then tie them up, as they only need a bit, as they are able to eat all they want, either when we get back to camp, or haul home.
These pics are from a ride a few weeks ago, and you can see that we have lots of grazing at rest stops


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I have not been back to this thread in a while. To imply that I did not love my horses because their carcasses went to the dump is being unrealistic and slightly rude. My horses died. There was only a shell left, a carcass. The personality was gone. You cannot cremate a horse here. You cannot burn a carcass. As Dreamcatcher has stated, My horses have usually seen a Vet to see if there was a fixable issue before spending the money on euthansia. I have horses on what I call the short list. They are old, they are still thriving, but when they start to drop the lbs, be mopey and don't have that will left, I will give them the easy ticket out. The Vet has numbers for carcass removal, or calls for you . I prefer to have the truck here as soon as possible, so the carcass does not lay around.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2011)

My vet and the local dead animal removal know each other casually as most do in a small town. They both try hard to coordinate the timing.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

AnitaAnne said:


> IMO, yes they are saving a life it just costs the rescues more to buy from a kill buyer.
> 
> *The real problem to me is, why are there so many "extra" horses? 150,000 going to slaughter each year? Horrible. Where are all these horse coming from? Breeders producing more than the market can absorb? *
> 
> ...


This thread is now very relevant to our little ranching operation. Sally, the new girl, is heavily pregnant and came from a kill pen in north Texas this week.

SIL2b picked her up. Said they had 95 to ship out and 48 of those were all under the age of 2. The remainder of the 95 scheduled to ship out Friday were all adult horses ranging from Missouri Foxtrotters to (allegedly) Arabians. Some were clearly starved down and beaten down, others didn't seem to belong there. Sally wasn't the only pregnant mare there. One had delivered in the lots, the other was due any time.

Now. To do the maths, and this is broadly speaking and a tremendous generalization, but that facility has 7 other facilities in N. Texas. Extend that to the entire state. Now broaden that to the states that do have these types of facilities. They said they ship out, on average, just under 100, a week from each facility... half or more are all under the age of 2. They're babies.

(I don't know how many facilities actually exist, btw, but that doesn't change the fact the numbers truly are staggering)

How the HELL are there that many unwanted babies? Its not like the mares are cats and deliver 5 babies two or three times a year. They're not the mutt female family dog that has an afternoon delight with the neighbor's sneaky Chihuahua. 

Yeah, I know... breed 100 to get the 1 champion... but still. That's just staggering. And not all of these are culls. Also, my boss and I were talking about this - he's a former cutting horse competitor, owns a lot of rescue horses himself, and he maintains a lot of contacts with people who do breed high caliber horses. He's baffled to - if they're the culls from bigger operations, they seem too young to be discarded just yet. There's no way to know if an 18 month old, or a yearling will or will not meet breeding expectations, they're still developing. (At least that's his opinion).

I will also say this.

The honyock that took my daughter's money tried to tell the SIL2B that Sally is a dangerous, mean horse. He showed SIL2B a video on his phone of Sally bucking like a maniac with that guy on her, under saddle....

Also, he was actually RIDING Sally when SIL2B pulled in with the trailer.

Sally is due to deliver in 2-3 weeks. SHE IS HUGE and you can see the baby moving and pushing around.

Guy insists she's mean... SIL2B wanted to jack slap him. He said: I'd be mean too if you're slapping a cheap saddle on me, sucking my gut up and kicking the $&% out of me when I'm 3 weeks away from having a baby! Why the HELL were you even riding her? Then, OR just now?

Guy says: Duuuuuhhhh... she's pregnant?

YES YOU MORON. She was advertised as heavily pregnant and due anytime!

Also, she's not mean. She's desperate for a gentle touch, and while leery once she was home, within just a half hour she was soaking it all up and sighing in contended bliss. I spent two hours with her out in the heifer pasture, just hanging around her, watching how she was handling the new place, how eager she was to be approached, etc.

THE ONLY TIME she displayed even food aggression was when my old crabby schnauzer tried to steal a bite of her feed (I'd taken a rubber feed bowl to her). And even then, she just backed her ears and rather than offering to bite, she literally shoved Harley out of the way with her nose, stomped a foot, and kept on eating. 

She didn't act up for the vet, even with very invasive examinations, she picks up all her feet. 

It remains to be seen if she'll be a bucking fool once the baby is here and she's back in riding condition, but an ill fitting saddle that was clearly far too small for her and on top of a stupidly thin, cheap pad, and a moron that was intentionally provoking her while heavily pregnant, I would think, would turn any horse into a bucking fool.

I have no idea what that guy's 'game' was, but he also told SIL2b that the owner lets them pocket any cash they make off any horses they sell... :-x

I know in my heart not only are they making money on the sale for slaughter end, but they're making hella money off the ones they do rehome...


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

Just received this. The American Association of Equine Practitioners details out horse demographics in the USA. 

With 1.8 million horse owners, mostly recreational, in the USA coupled with a declining horse population should go a ways in explaining 150,000 horses being sold to slaughter each year.

Who We Are | EasyCare


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Where do they all come from?
True, horses don't produce litters like dogs and cats, but unlike dogs and cats, that almost anyone can care for, use as a pet, a lot of people can;t start horses.
Sure, there are some culls from breeders at local auctions, but the majority of horses that i see going through our local all breed horse auction, are horses that someone rounded up out of their back pasture, driven through that sale ring, as they are not even halter broke. Feet ever done, 'forget it'.
Someone decided it would be so nice to breed that mare they could not ride, or have acute baby to grow up with jr, or just have an un gelded colt running in the back forty with some mares
Cute baby grows up, and reality hits. they lack the skill to start it under saddle, and soon realize that a few months of training are going to cost them way more then they will ever get for that horse
Thus, they cut their loss, load that horse up, take him to that auction, and have him chased through as a loose horse, Many of these around here, are pasture fat, so guess who bids on a fat unbroke horse?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Where do all the unwanted horses come from? Boy if we really could nail that one down we'd fix it in a minnit. I can only talk about what I've seen first hand, so here goes. 

"Babies", under 2 years old - Halter. If they aren't extreme enough or have a conformation flaw that's big enough, they are culls. The halter folks don't care that an Arab with a 'human eye' may be athletic as all get out, they won't cut it at halter. Too much white (Stock & Arabs both), won't work for the breed purists who don't like too much chrome. Athletic doesn't matter, they won't do it in the halter ring, so they're culled. They also don't want them breeding on and perpetuating the 'excessive white'. In Arabs a 'glass eye' is also a serious fault, boom, another cull. These horses can wash out anytime from birth on. Oh, a scar. If a halter horse has an accident and gets a not easily masked scar, it's over. These folks are not breeding for riding animals and have no interest in starting and finishing these horses. If the horse is lucky, someone will come along who sees it and buys it for performance before the breeder does their end of year cull. 

I used to know a lady who sought out the 'culled' Arab halter horses for her riding animals. She looked for the human eyes or glass eyes and bought them for nothing, invested a few thousand in training and had a national champion performance horse. She wasn't a breeder, didn't care a thing about breed standard, she just cared if they could move. There weren't a whole lot like her. 

I bought Honey Boo Boo at an auction that's predominantly reining and cutting folks, she's halter bred (oh boy is she) and she was in foal to a World Champ halter stallion. I paid $600 for her and got papers and all and the owner was THRILLED that I wasn't a KB. If I'd been into halter, her foal Beau would have been a cull on day one. He was solid (APHA), possibly an HYPP carrier, and just not what a halter breeder would be looking for. He went on to become a really nice trail horse for a guy down in TX. As a halter breeder, I'd have shipped him as soon as he was weaned. Since I'm not into halter, he got a chance to prove himself. 

Over 2 - those are the performance washouts. Get on 'em and in 2 weeks or a month, you can see if they have the brains to possibly handle the futurities. Too immature - ship 'em. Too scared - Ship 'em. Too ungainly or growthy - ship 'em. They don't waste time, because time = money, on a horse they KNOW they aren't going to push through the futurities. If they pass the first cut, then after 90-120 days, if they fail out because they just aren't sharpening up fast enough - ship 'em. Now if they're cutting or reining bred, they have a market of trainers who want the ones who wash out of the programs. The horses who fail at the 2nd & 3rd cuts in the cutters & reiners are broke, broke, broke. 60-90 more days with a trainer and they're ready to rope, be used on cattle, start trail riding, all kinds of stuff and they sell pretty cheap at the performance auctions. If one of these horses turns out not to be suitable for the trainer or the buyer from that trainer, then - ship 'em. 

That's just addressing the fairly large breeding programs. What about the 'backyard' breeder who breeds Bint Nobody to Ben Shoulda Been Gelded? They get a collywobbled mess of conformation faults of a foal and can't give it away? Ship it. 

The futurity horses that actually make it to the futurities but don't get past the first round? Ship 'em. Or they make it through but are breaking down by 5 and need constant joint injections, expensive supplements, have ulcers and need lots of vet care? Ship 'em. 

We're a throw away society and when we're done using something, whether it's a plastic food container or a horse, we toss it. We no longer look at things with an eye to repurposing it. Everything is specialized and nothing is crossed over.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Yep. It's cheaper to buy 'new' than fix what you have.


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## AnitaAnne (Oct 31, 2010)

I hardly know what to say about these statistics. 

The thought that 50% of the horses sent to slaughter are under age two is so very sad. Sounds very much like the breeders can be held responsible for the overwhelming number of horses sent to slaughter. Over breeding for the existing market without remorse :-(

My guess is that most of those babies are not even put up for sale to the public except for the tiny chance they have at a local auction to find a home. That is really no chance at all. 

Why are they not listed for sale on the internet where they could be seen by many more potential buyers? 

If these breeders had to pay the slaughter houses to cull the unwanted horses instead of making a few dollars on the sale, I do believe they would greatly reduce their breeding operations.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Now, if we really want to talk about ;throw aways, lets look at the racing industry!
TB racing has at least supported an OTTB rehoming, financially, far as I under stand, but Standardbreds are not so lucky
I sometimes pick up the Standardbred magazine, at Olds v=college, as they have a standarbred race breeding program.
When the race tracks for standardbreds were closed in souther ontario, linked to betting, there were no races, and many of those owners shipped their horses to slaughter

Here you go, read on:

https://www.thestar.com/sports/2012..._ontario_horse_racing_industry_collapses.html


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The bottom line is, that while many horse owners have horses, purely for recreation, deriving an income from other sources, there are horse industries where those people have to run that business like any other business, far as trying to stay in the black, as those hroses are their livelihood.
I am not making any moral judgement here, just stating fact, that while for many the hrose is in the classification of a beloved family member, many big breeders consider a horse in the livestock classification, where that business must be run same as any other business, based on sound financial decisions and not on emotions.
That is the true crux of the matter.


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## Hondo (Sep 29, 2014)

The 6666 ranch breeds 100 brood mares each year.

The Waggoner ranch breeds 300 brood mares each year.

The person running a ranch adjoining the ranch I'm on worked for Waggoner ranch for three years helping start 300 colts each year.

He told me that a half dozen or less were sent on to the main ranch trainer for finishing and depending on how they worked out in competition would bring 15-60k.

The other top horses were saved for ranch use with the rest going to auction. What kind of auction I did not ask.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yes, the 6666 has a good reputation far as producing ranch geldings, that then go on to being sold to recreational riders with deep pockets, for very good money
These hroses are bred to be riding/using horses, which race hroses are not.
It becomes a second career for those, that are lucky


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

A lot of the 6666 and Waggoner horses are sold at auction and bring good prices. Those ranches have a reputation for well-bred, sound, using-type horses and there is a demand for those.

The racehorse rehab rescues can't unload quality, well-bred, retrained horses for $500. Now, some of that is because of strict rules on placement, such as type of fencing, etc. that prohibits 90% of horse owners from getting one, but if they can't rehome a nice, sound, well-built TB who is already working on a second career, what hope do most of those horses have?

I go to auctions occasionally, usually with a friend so I: A.) don't buy anything I don't need, and B.) moral support that we can't save them all.

About 1/3 of the horses going through are broke, or at least broke enough to be ridden through the sales ring. The rest seem to be evenly split between weanlings and yearlings this time of year (winter is coming, they're not selling privately, and it will cost more to feed them through the winter than they're worth) and older, unbroke horses without a chance in the world. 

She bought a horse at a sale last week. This big, grade, good-looking gelding sold for $750 and is broke, broke, broke, and well-built. She's still trying to figure out what's wrong with him, but so far he's as nice a horse as you could want. He stands tied, easy to saddle, bridle, get on, has a good stop and turnaround, neck reins, knows his leads, moves off your leg, and knows his way around a roping arena. She'll probably rope on him a few times later this fall and sell him for good money. How this nice, big guy ended up a low-end auction is anyone's guess. She also picked up a wormy, foundered, thin grade pinto pony mare who would have died on the kill truck for the princely sum of $35. The mare is a sweetheart and looks a ton better already. She figured if she couldn't fix her up for her kids, she's shoot her and give her a gentle end, but so far the mare's future is at least looking somewhat positive.

We have a family friend who lost his pasture. He tried for 5 months to find homes for his horses-- three of the four were easily sold. A green-broke 4 y.o. filly was not. He raised that filly, and loved her dearly, but she's not the stocky, swampy quality of horse that sells well even when green. He offered to give her away to several people, but no one could take her. I thought about it, but she's hard on fences, not stocky enough for what I need, and I can't afford to feed a horse that I won't be using. Everyone I know with horses has more than they need, or are at their limit with no more space, as much as we wish we could save all of them. Last week he tearfully took her to auction. She sold to a KB for $335. He says he wishes he'd simply shot her, but he thought that at auction, she at least had a chance. She didn't get that chance. I think a lot of people are in his predicament-- they had family horses that weren't super-great quality, but were nice horses for what they needed. Then things change and life happens-- you lose your pasture, you get drought or too much rain and there's no hay, you get in a financial mess due to medical bills or what have you and you need to sell those horses and there are NO BUYERS. I see a ton of horses listed for sale on FB for $1500 - 3500. Some of those sell, a lot of them don't. Some sellers are unrealistic about their horse's worth, or the horse has navicular or an injury, so they wait and wait until there's no choice and then are forced to sell them at auction. If they were listed for reasonable prices, they may have sold. Nobody wants to admit their beloved mare is worth $300 bucks, but there you have it. 

Grade weanlings and yearlings are essentially worthless unless they are a fancy color. Even papered youngsters aren't worth much, even with some big names on the papers -- $150 - $350 or less, most of the time. I wanted to go to Waverly today and pick up a QH/Percheron weanling from the dozen or so listed for sale as a future saddle horse for myself, but decided not to as hay is hard to come by here this year, we have just enough to get through until spring, and I don't want to have to worry about feeding another through the winter until I know I will have enough food for them--- I hope those babies sold to private owners who will do right by them, but I suspect at least some did not. Half-draft horses sell quickly when broke, but as weanlings will need 2-3 years of feed and care before you can even start riding them, and a lot of folks don't have the space and money for that. *sigh*

There are no easy answers. There is no easy solution.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Smilie said:


> The bottom line is, that while many horse owners have horses, purely for recreation, deriving an income from other sources, there are horse industries where those people have to run that business like any other business, far as trying to stay in the black, as those hroses are their livelihood.
> I am not making any moral judgement here, just stating fact, that while for many the hrose is in the classification of a beloved family member, many big breeders consider a horse in the livestock classification, where that business must be run same as any other business, based on sound financial decisions and not on emotions.
> That is the true crux of the matter.


(Speaking specifically about the big breeding outfits here)

And yet they aren't just any other livestock are they? I mean, cattle, as an example, are bred specifically for meat or dairy, and the dairy bull calves get sent to hamburger plants. You don't hear of cattle breeds that are being refined so they're smarter, faster, have prettier motion, or more showy (except the small handful of show heifers for high school FFA and the like).

Horses aren't bred in numbers specifically to produce a meal. They're being bred in such numbers by the big outfits (racing or any other event) in the hopes of producing The One. 

That's a huge distinction and speaks to the throw away nature of our culture, IMO.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> (Speaking specifically about the big breeding outfits here)
> 
> And yet they aren't just any other livestock are they? I mean, cattle, as an example, are bred specifically for meat or dairy, and the dairy bull calves get sent to hamburger plants. You don't hear of cattle breeds that are being refined so they're smarter, faster, have prettier motion, or more showy (except the small handful of show heifers for high school FFA and the like).
> 
> ...


In Spain the Yeguada Militar de Jerez de la Frontera is the Military Stud farm. Every year they breed many foals and the ones that don't make it are meals for the soldiers. Poland, Russia, and many others do the same thing. Each year the come take the culls and feed the military, prisoners and of course, market the meat. We have to remember that we are one of the few countries in the world where horses are not considered food any longer. They were up until the very recently. The Horse Slaughter Prevention Act wasn't passed until 2006. It is still legal to slaughter and eat your own animal, it's not legal to sell horsemeat for human consumption, not because of the meat but because of lack of federal inspectors. So even WE still have a fairly recent history of using horses or Chevaline as it was named, for meat. I kind of feel like we're living in a glass house when we say horses are not for eating. 

I'm not throwing stones at any of the breeding operations. I think because we don't have a slaughter market that we now have a total glut of horses that people don't want to deal with, for whatever reasons. We need to be careful what we wish for because, as with the ban on horse slaughter, we may get what we asked for.

Someone mentioned the 4 6's and Waggoner and there are several others who have production sales in the fall. Those horses are using horses and well trained. The "Back to the Remuda" sale is very well attended and those horses fetch good prices. There's no lack of a market for good using horses that are well bred, well trained and have a history. It's more the ones who are not backed by some kind of knowledgeable program or that are bred strictly for a niche and then don't fit that are always in trouble.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

What affects horses, far as being a livestock or not, is that many people have horses as luxuries, able to funnel money in from other operations to support their horse venues. That is what allows them to breed above the law of supply and demand.
There are very few horse operations, where the income for that operation, is solely generated by the horses, unlike true livestock operations
When the economy bottoms out, those funds dry up, and thus many of those 'horse businesses cut their loss by dumping those hroses
There once was an Appaloosa stallion, Roman Straw Man, who stood for a stud fee of $10,000 That entire horse operation was very high class, and it was also funded by drug money, so guess what happened to those horses
Horses were also used as tax write offs, until some laws were tightened up, Thus, at one time, their were Arabian halter stallions selling for a hundred thousand dollars and up, funded by oil money. Oil prices hit the toilet (can't re call the year, off the top of my head, but there was a write up in one horse mag)
Anyway, same horses could then hardly be given away. One Arabian breeder, interviewed, said she would rather send those horses to slaughter, then sell them for bargain bin prices
If all horse businesses, had to be run on their own merit, the over breeding of horses would plummet
When TB yearlings, sold for millions to oil sheiks, who could eat that loss, if the horse never did anything, breeders of course, tried to fill that market
In the past, when horses were used by about everyone, for horse power in the fields, in the mines, for transportation, for war, which also claimed numerous hroses , not just people, over breeding did not really exist like today.
Now, horses are a luxury, and thus expendable.
How many draft horses were slaughtered, when the tractor came into being? Just read books like the one by Ben Greene ; "Horse Tradin'. .


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Agree with Dreamcatcher that the market for good using horses remains strong
Heck, even the market for a proven solid performance hrose stays steady, and there was always a lack of seasoned sound hroses for youth or novice people who were willing to pay a good price, but those hroses just are not that easy to find
The horses that are first to be subjected to that down turn in the economy, are the young prospects, which are always very plentiful
Same old law of supply and demand, plus it is easy to turn out prospects, but not so easy to put the training and time on them
Many people who had pipe dreams of breeding horses, thought all they had to do, was buy a well bred stallion and some well bred mares, and buyers would come flocking to buy those offspring. Reality set in, and many of those same people, who had no training ability, no funds to hire a trainer, then dumped those young prospects that were causing them to go in the red, with feed,ect
I know of at least half a dozen or so, who basically liked horses, but lacked the commitment to do something besides churn out young horses, that never got trained, did not sell, as prospects are a dime a dozen,or, someone willing to buy a prospect, put the training on them, is going to buy from someone that already has a Proven program ,highly successful, and advertised on a big scale
They are not going to buy a reining prospect, for instance, from a well bred but un proven reining stallion, but rather from one of those million dollar earning sires
Also agree that the slaughter option should never have been taken away, without first having viable alternative solutions- be it some government control on breeding (yes, going to go over well, in a country where the right to bare arms is considered a fundamental right! )or some laws where a horse operation has to truly run as a business, versus supported by outside funds, often used as a tax write off
Banning horse slaughter was not in the best interest of those unwanted horses. Adoption homes can't take them all, and some of those organizations also turned out to be offenders, far as hrose abuse


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

In much of the world, and even in areas of the US, draft horses are still bred primarily for slaughter. They gain faster than cattle and require less food per pound of gain.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Oh, there's no money in horses (For people like us) (and I know the big outfits aren't solely making their money on horses). LOL I know that. I mean, as I was explaining to my daughter when she thought she could make good side cash at it: One mare takes almost one year to foal. You're feeding and caring for that one mare for one year, so deduct all the cost of vet care, farrier bills, and feed off the top of that foal (Yeah, I know most brood mares don't get a lot of TLC, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make with her). Deduct the cost of stud fees off the top. Consider PAPERED foals sell in the neighborhood of $1,700.00 before the haggling and negotiations begin?

(Smilie, you posted while I was typing - my daughter thought the mare with good bloodlines in her pedigree and a stallion of high breeding hooking up and the baby being delivered was all she had to do. That WAS a pipe dream and I've seen it in person now.)

You're already in the hole (almost) before you even begin. How about selling used tack instead? (whew - she's all in on that and its working without adding more horses to the problem.)

But yes, at least in Europe they do eat them. I have no objections to slaughterhouses, tbh. I think I've already mentioned that in another thread, or perhaps this one. I don't think less of those who eat horse meat and enjoy it because ultimately I understand the logic of eating a herd animal. I don't bat an eye when DH or one of the kids brings in a quartered deer and asks me to turn him or her into steaks (I'm the venison processor on the place). It's a grim reality that we have way too many horses here, and thanks to PETA we can't slaughter them here, but we CAN ship them by truck into Mexico, where they suffer genuinely horrific ends.

I guess ultimately we can talk ourselves in circles and tie ourselves up in knots, but until horses are no longer status symbols and it's illegal for irresponsible people to own one (yeah, I know, that was meant sarcastically, that will never happen) all we can do is do our best to make the problem WORSE and hopefully for some, make it a little better. Buying Sally and her unborn foal may not have saved a horse, not really since another will now take her place, but Trigger became my problem. Had I tried to sell him again, his problems would have been so compounded by then, he'd have gone to a kill buyer, I know it in my guts.

That's what I mean when I say the horse stops here. For us, they aren't a business, we're fortunate enough to call them working livestock and run their expenses through our small ranching operation to absorb some of the impact, and we have people that can help us now. We have all the time in the world to learn and enjoy, and that's what I'm beating in my kids' heads. Don't flip them just because the new has worn off or because you uncover holes or nervous ticks or 'don't get along'. Figure them out, pick out the knots, give them a real home and a good life. 

All we can do is do the best we can for what we have and lessen any impact we could have on contributing to the problem.


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Here's where I'd like to expand on how I explained this to my daughter about making money as a back yard breeder:

I grew up on land that butted up to Ken Slawson. In the 80s, he was a notable local breeder of cutting horses. He had two studs that would take your breath away - one a pitch black horse that conjured up images of The Black (even though he was AQHA), and a deep caramel palomino. He had band of brood mares, probably a dozen at any given time, their foals, and yearlings, weanlings, young ones he was starting.

He had cattle on leases - and that's where his real money came from. The horses, at the time, did rake in big money, the stud fees then were astronomical compared to today's fees (locally). 

He had long time contacts all over the U.S. He spent a TON of time away glad handing and elbow rubbing to maintain those contacts and keep his sales up. He shipped foals all over the place. 

And even doing the math by today's standards, with the amount of mares he had, even owning your own studs, I don't think you could make a DIME on it. Not here, not unless you know now how to start and finish one out. We don't. She doesn't. I made her put pen and paper to the numbers with just one or two mares and their foals, then I told her to multiply that out until she found an operation making money, and tell me how many horses of what caliber that would demand.

The numbers came up in the red until she was into a MASSIVE amount of horses, which require lots of land, lots of feed, barns, vets on call, ranch hands, TAXES... stud fees, etc. And she wasn't factoring THAT cost in either. 

That's where the pipe dream finally collapsed for her. The reality is while the one baby we had is cute, and we love her, and someday she'll be started and finished properly by someone who actually trains horses, she's here forever. We have another on the way now, and by the time he or she is ready to ride and enjoy, Superman will be putting about as the retired old fart with kids hanging off him.

The reality is, she, and we, are in no way equipped to fire up a breeding operation and there's no need to do so. Just like dogs, why go find a high bred show dog when all you need is a scruffy little red heeler and a throw away Aussie shepherd? Go find a dog that needs a new home - there's thousands of them out there. Same with horses.

(I say all this conditionally. I know a finished barrel horse or heading horse is worth bank. A finished jumper, a finished anything. But we don't have the knowledge, the ability, or the finances OR THE NEED to get in that deep.)


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## SilverMaple (Jun 24, 2017)

There is some money to be made in equines, but it takes luck and skill. Hitch-quality draft horses are selling higher and higher. Good, broke work teams are worth a lot of money.

Finished anything will bring a fair price. A gal I used to work with makes a good living training barrel horses. A finished one is 10K, minimum. But she has the land and space to buy prospects as weanlings when they're $250 and spend next to nothing on them while they grow and are trained other than maintenance. Her husband is a farrier. Her mom is a vet. She has access to about 500 acres of grass. That helps.

Flippers/dealers can do well if they know what sells, can put basic training on a horse, have a good reputation, and have a hard enough heart to run unsuitable horses back through the sale ring. The ones I know generally don't sell anything for under $1500 and some sell 20+ horses a week or more.

Gaited mules-- a good one is worth his weight in gold.

Quality miniature horses (emphasis here on quality) are not cheap. A friend of mine raises some nice minis and those horses pay for her big horses twice over every year. 

But you need the land and facilities, with access to vet care and enough knowledge to not have to spend a lot. Good safe fencing already in place. Adequate acreage to ensure good grass AND hay from your own property. The knowledge to only need the vet for the worst, and not for every scrape, cut, or lameness. The knowledge to foal out mares safely. A good eye to choose quality animals, etc.


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## Kriva (Dec 11, 2015)

I have tried to read all of this post as it's very interesting to me. But, alas, I did skip a few pages in the middle but will probably go back and read them. However, I would just like to add that up until recently I would have been part of the "no slaughter" "save them all" "horse meat, gross" crowd. And then a realization hit me...who am I to say what should and shouldn't be eaten??? I eat the types of food that I do because that's what I was taught growing up was ok to eat. 

It's somewhat like politics and religion...we believe what we believe because that's what we were taught to believe. That doesn't make my beliefs right or wrong. It makes them an opinion and not a fact. Just because I won't eat horse meat doesn't mean that I should tell other people that they can't. 

DH and I went on a hunt in South Africa about 8 years ago and it was an eye opening experience. Everything that was killed was eaten. Not necessarily by us (although we did have gemsbok steak and it was wonderful!) but by the people that worked on the ranch where we hunted and surrounding ranches too. Nothing went to waste. Granted, these were not "pets" they were wild animals, but here in the US we would balk at someone killing and eating a zebra. But it happens there and they see no issue with it. 

I don't like thinking that someone's beloved pet will go to slaughter, but a lot of the horses in kill pens are not someone's beloved pet. They're someone's throw-away for one reason or another. If you think that humanely euthanizing them is ok, then why can't someone benefit from the meat? One horse could feed a lot of people. Some of the ladies I work with think it's terrible that I eat "Bambi", I always point out that the food I'm eating lived a full healthy life in the environment it was meant to live in. It wasn't stuck in a small pen with hundreds of other livestock living on processed feeds just fattening up until it was time to kill it. Just because they don't think eating venison is ok doesn't make it wrong. 

Anyway...I don't like the thought of slaughter, culling, etc..anymore than the next guy/gal, but it's a reality that we have to deal with. 

And it just hit me, wouldn't using horse meat for good when it's going to be slaughtered anyway be somewhat like me donating my organs after I die? Not very many people would think it's "gross" or "inhumane" for a person with kidney failure to get my kidney, I don't need it anymore anyway!!! After I'm gone my body is just a body, it's not me. Why would we deny feeding a hungry person or another animal just because we think it's "gross"? 

Should we find a way to stop the overpopulation of animals so that none go to slaughter or are euthanized? Yes!! Can we? Not likely! We can keep loving the one's we have control over and "saving" some when we can. But we can't save them all.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

AtokaGhosthorse said:


> Here's where I'd like to expand on how I explained this to my daughter about making money as a back yard breeder:
> 
> I grew up on land that butted up to Ken Slawson. In the 80s, he was a notable local breeder of cutting horses. He had two studs that would take your breath away - one a pitch black horse that conjured up images of The Black (even though he was AQHA), and a deep caramel palomino. He had band of brood mares, probably a dozen at any given time, their foals, and yearlings, weanlings, young ones he was starting.
> 
> ...


Exactly, and why I learned to train the hroses I raised, learned to trim their feet, and when I sold them as well started three year olds, for between $3,500 and $4,000, I had better have enjoyed what I was doing, as my time most likely counted for nothing
I got lucky, and sold some yearling for good money, since they were on a share basis , with a breeder whose stallion had achieved both World Appaloosa titles in working cowhorse and also was very successful on the open NRCHA. I had tow mares, proven as reiners and working cowhorses, so we did a agreement where I got one foal and he got one, from those mares and his stallion
Horse with show records, of course, sold for more, but then you had the show expenses, which was okay, as that was also my hobby

Because the training is the biggest part, so many young hroses are seen going to slaughter.
To be truthful, the people that really made money with hroses, were the flippers and PMU ranchers
Flippers have none of the expenses of raising a horse, and get very good at buying promising horses that just need some tune up, before they are flipped
PMU ranchers had a guaranteed income for that urine quota, and foals were the extra 'cream'


There is the old joke of, 'how do you make amiliondoallrs with horses'?
Answer" \you start with two million!"


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Each one of us, that has had a faithful horse who served him through life, has the moral obligation to give that horse agood end
I certainly have done that with all my horses.They were put down by avet, with my favorite ones buried here, not because I believe anything is left, but a body, with final disposal being not an issue, far as the horse himself, but I just could not see my favorite horses going off in the rendering truck.

What we can't do, is block the final solution for those unwanted hroses, whose fate will often be worse then death. We can work towards humane transport and slaughter


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## AtokaGhosthorse (Oct 17, 2016)

On the where they're all coming from question, I've noticed more than a fair share of: Have you seen this horse? type posts in a lot of FB groups lately. Usually the horse or horses has/have simply vanished from their pasture.

DH said they're probably being stolen resold to kill buyers. He knows of a person locally who had about half his herd vanish, only to discover too late the people he was leasing the land from had sold them off to a kill buyer and claimed they didn't know what happened to the horses.

Someone went to prison over that, and it wasn't the horse thieves... it was the owner for doing bad things to said thieves.


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