# Legal Proof of Ownership?



## Creampuff

Helping friend, and hope you all can provide some insight. 

She bought a horse, that was extremely thin, from a local scum bag who abuses the term "rescue" and for the last 3 years, has used the "bad hay" excuse for his underweight horses. 

Since then she has put weight on this horse, retrained him, etc. 
I learned yesterday that she, through a mutual friend, still has contact with him. He claimed "someone offered him $6,000 for that horse." I asked why someone was still offering him money and she enlightened me that he still has him listed for sale! 

Apparently, there was no bill of sale. According to him, he let the horse go for "way too cheap" and didn't want his wife to know what he sold him for, but wanted to buy her a gift of some sort and needed the money.

She was recently told that coggins, despite being in her name, do not show proof of ownership. She thought about getting him DNA tested with the Tennessee Walker Assoc., but found that could take up to a year. She's concerned he'll claim the horse was stolen or sell him to someone else. 

Anyone know legal ways to prove ownership of a grade horse, since they didn't get a bill of sale?


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## gssw5

I would consult a lawyer. Have the lawyer draw up a bill of sale and try to get one signed that way.

Provided she has saved receipts for feed, vet bills, farrier ect, has pictures, and can prove she has been caring for the horse and the horse is in her care currently I would think that would be proof enough but she would probably have to go to court and a get a judge to rule.

If he does try to get the horse claiming she does not own it tell her to have a monthly list of bills ready to present for board, training fees, feed, vet bills, farrier etc. If he takes the horse then she can sue him for the back board and expenses. Make sure it adds up to well over $6000 that he is claiming he can get for the horse.

I would also take the horse and get it micro-chipped asap just one more layer of protection.


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## Creampuff

gssw5 said:


> I would consult a lawyer. Have the lawyer draw up a bill of sale and try to get one signed that way.
> 
> Provided she has saved receipts for feed, vet bills, farrier ect, has pictures, and can prove she has been caring for the horse and the horse is in her care currently I would think that would be proof enough but she would probably have to go to court and a get a judge to rule.
> 
> If he does try to get the horse claiming she does not own it tell her to have a monthly list of bills ready to present for board, training fees, feed, vet bills, farrier etc. If he takes the horse then she can sue him for the back board and expenses. Make sure it adds up to well over $6000 that he is claiming he can get for the horse.
> 
> I would also take the horse and get it micro-chipped asap just one more layer of protection.


She knows someone with legal pull who told her a microchip won't give her much leeway as far as proof of ownership. She was also told the horse's current coggins (which is in her name) does not stand as proof of ownership. 

I told her to take pictures of the horse (all sides), her with the horse -- all date stamped -- and get them developed with at least 2 copies. Mail one to herself, and the other to her lawyer or a family member or friend and make sure they do NOT open it and keep it as a "record," which will at least prove that she has had the horse between this and that time. 

I also told her to gather all expense records (feed, boarding, veterinary care, and even training that she has given the horse) and do that (sort of like a boarder's lien) to maybe ward him off should he try to take the horse back (saying "you owe XYZ amount for all of this before he can leave the property"). Fortunately, money is something that is way out there for this fella. 

I also did some quick research on equine lawyers in our area and gave her their numbers to consult with them to make sure she gets updated and truly legal advice, and to hire one if she needs to "just in case." 

Without the bill of sale and the fact that he apparently still has the horse listed for sale (since he got an offer a month or so after he was advertised), she's scared she bought this horse, put a ton of weight and training on him, only for him to resell him or report the horse as stolen.


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## Corporal

Unless you can provide proof of purchase, either a legitimate Bill of Sale, or a check, you won't be able to contest this. So, if you paid by cash alone, you are sorry-out-of-luck.
If you paid by check, and you REALLY like this horse, I would PAY an attorney to contest this. DH, associate and DD (also atty) would began by a phone call and a letter on their letterhead. Often , THIS is enough to get a scumbag to cough up a bill of sale.
Just so you know, the very well respected but small breeder that I bought my 8yo KMH gelding from had him still listed for sale for a short time after we purchased him.
I, too, question these "rescues". Often they are a business write off. The rescue that I "adopted" (cough, cough) Buster Brown from keeps their horses pretty well, certainly well fed and Vet care, but they bought an old farm, moved from 5 acres to 35 acres, and MANY old farms that sell cheap are Full of trash. Buster, though sound, has a healed chip on his RR hoof bc of the property. My eldest DD also noticed that his coat, as a 3yo, was rough and dull and has become sleek and glossy, and BELIEVE me, he doesn't get brushed out enough, just better fed. I had a problem with only purchasing hay from the same supplier who grew for his cattle and was selling me his worst hay. I was feeding 5 bales/day/5 horses and they were losing weight. It was stemmy alfalfa with little nutrition. As soon as I moved to my new place I bought from a better supplier and cut the hay volume in half, yet ALL of my old horses gained weight.
Good luck. Be PROACTIVE!! I am an independent contractor in a business where my vendors warn that they will refuse payment if you wait for two months or longer. I argued payment over one year later from a vendor who had not paid me. Just by arguing, I got my money. Don't overlook that by constantly calling and talking to or leaving messages, you can wear someone down. Should the seller threaten to call the police, say, "bring it on" bc he owes YOU a bill of sale, is threatening to take back what he sold you, and that can be addressed. It's a win-win for YOU. =D


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## Skipsfirstspike

Doesn't sound like he is denying the sale, just mad that he sold the horse too cheap. If the horse is without papers, how would he prove that it was his anyway? He said/she said?
Maybe your friend can send him an email with a question, something like "Regarding the 10 yr old bay horse you sold me 6 months ago, the grade with the white hind foot, would you suggest he goes better in a snaffle or a curb bit?"
If he answers "Topper goes best in a curb" or whatever, isn't that some sort of proof that he sold him?
I have heard many people lament that they never should have let that horse/saddle/car go for the price they accepted, but doesn't mean they tried to steal it back. Does your friend really think he would do that? Legit question, there are shady characters out there.


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## stevenson

she has feed training farrier cost, plus the initial amt she paid.. she can probably file a lien for All expenses , training, feed, custodial care, farrier , she will need proof in the way of checks etc for receipts. She needs to check local law for your area on filing an agisters lien.


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## Creampuff

Skipsfirstspike said:


> Doesn't sound like he is denying the sale, just mad that he sold the horse too cheap. If the horse is without papers, how would he prove that it was his anyway? He said/she said?
> Maybe your friend can send him an email with a question, something like "Regarding the 10 yr old bay horse you sold me 6 months ago, the grade with the white hind foot, would you suggest he goes better in a snaffle or a curb bit?"
> If he answers "Topper goes best in a curb" or whatever, isn't that some sort of proof that he sold him?
> I have heard many people lament that they never should have let that horse/saddle/car go for the price they accepted, but doesn't mean they tried to steal it back. Does your friend really think he would do that? Legit question, there are shady characters out there.


He is not beyond pulling some shady crap against people -- the stories go on and on about this fellow, but I don't want to stray from the friend's goal. 

The e-mail is a good idea and I'll suggest it to her! 

Otherwise, she is SUPER concerned that he still has the horse listed for sale. It would be one thing if she were "making payments," but they're not. By the way she talks I'm worried she paid cash for him, leaving no "paper trail" for the sale itself. 

I'm touching base with her today to see if she called the lawyers or not.


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## ArabLuver

Does the Bill of Sale need to be notarized?


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## mrwithers

I'm a bit late to this but here's my input:

In the US you only need a verbal agreement to be legal but it's hard to prove. You usually need witnesses or evidence to prove it and depending on how much money it was it might not be worth fighting it. Does she have any emails or text messages from him about it?

Don't bother trying to get a bill of sale from him at this point as it might tip him off as to her game plan. If she can get him to admit to taking payment for the horse over email that may be all she'll need.

Also on another note, registration papers don't even prove ownership, only a bill of sale does. There are so many scumbags in the horse world we have to protect ourselves from.


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## Creampuff

mrwithers said:


> I'm a bit late to this but here's my input:
> 
> In the US you only need a verbal agreement to be legal but it's hard to prove. You usually need witnesses or evidence to prove it and depending on how much money it was it might not be worth fighting it. Does she have any emails or text messages from him about it?
> 
> Don't bother trying to get a bill of sale from him at this point as it might tip him off as to her game plan. If she can get him to admit to taking payment for the horse over email that may be all she'll need.
> 
> Also on another note, registration papers don't even prove ownership, only a bill of sale does. There are so many scumbags in the horse world we have to protect ourselves from.



To my knowledge, a bill of sale does not need to be notorized. 

As for the quoted comment -- it's come to my understanding that there was a partial trade of cash and mechanic work that her husband did on the previous owner's pick up truck. 

She learned through a local lawyer that registration paperwork does not prove current ownership (such as; making payments and the seller holds the papers, someone who never transferred, etc.). I haven't asked her lately if she talked to the lawyers or not, but I reckon it's about that time to see what's happening!


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## Corporal

I am a Notary Public and using a Notary gives you the surety that the photo identification of both buyer and seller is authentic INASMUCH as the parties that executed the identifying documents. I am allowed to use my judgement regarding any ID, and can refuse service if I have doubt of it's authenticity. If I were asked to notarize a Bill of Sale, I would have it drawn up by DH, who is an attorney, then ask for two photo ID's, proof of ownership (seller) and offer a copy of the Bill of Sale for the Seller. Just going to an attorney's office would make somebody who doesn't really own the horse shy. All parties would be paid. This also could be a problem for some people.
When I bought my mare, the owner hand wrote the Bill of Sale and handed over her registration paperwork. That was good enough for us, since we trailered her from PA to IL after the sale.


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