# How to tell when you are on the correct posting diagonal?



## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

This is a bit of an embarrassing question for me as I have been riding for 13 years and still can't get it right. I can understand how to work a horse from behind and put them into a proper frame but I cannot for the life of me figure out when I'm on the correct posting diagonal. I feel like it is important as my first riding instructor drilled it into my head but I could never get it ("rise and fall with the leg on the wall" will forever haunt me). My current instructor could care less about my posting diagonal and has even told me as such, she just cares how the horse is working. To a degree I understand where she is coming from, but I can't get it out of my head that whenever someone watches me ride they're secretly whispering to each other about how I don't even know I'm on the wrong diagonal.

Is it a big deal? Does anyone have any suggestion on how to make sure you're on the correct diagonal? Currently, I ask for the trot, sit softly and wait until the horse's natural movement pushes me out of the saddle, then I just keep posting.


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## bluethehuman (Sep 10, 2014)

I also have a little trouble with posting. When the outside leg is forward you should be up, when backwards, down. If you see you are doing the opposite of this, then sit (preferably sit for two beats) your trot till you see the pattern, then rise with the outside leg. Hope this helps!


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

I know how in theory you are supposed to do it, but I literally can not see when I am right or wrong. I think I'm posting on the correct one but I'm not, or I think I'm wrong but its correct. The frustrating part is I just can't see it, I have no clue what diagonal I'm on until someone tells me. I can "see" what lead I'm on and I can "see" a distance to a jump, but I cannot "see" a diagonal :/


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

Get someone on the ground to spot you.It doesn't have to an instructor or even someone horsey. Now ride the sitting trot. Have the person on the ground say the word "now" every time the outside front leg lifts and moves forward. You concentrate on looking forward and learning to feel when that leg moves. If it helps then occasionally glance down briefly but mostly try to learn to feel it. When you think you're beginning to get it then hopefully you will know when it's time to let the horses momentum help you come up and begin posting on the correct diagonal.

Once you are successful consistently you will look back and wonder why it was so hard. Promise.

Now tell me how you "see" the correct lead please. I am a beginner at cantering and not even worrying about correct leads yet but my friend says its difficult for her to know which lead she is on. So I'd appreciate any tips in advance in case I have the same problem ! Thanks.

Fay


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

As the outside leg moves forward you should be rising in your post. As the outside leg is moving back you should be lowering in your post.

If you are wrong sit for one bounce then start rising ans you should be correct.

I have been riding for year and years, and I still have to look down at the outside leg to see which diagonal I am on.


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

Haha alright, and thank you! I hope this helps me, I've literally had lessons with my previous trainer where I was nearly in tears trying to get the right diagonal and I just could not get it. My trainer would just continue to yell at me "Why is this so hard?! RISE AND FALL WITH THE LEG ON THE WALL!". Traumatizing... 

The way I do it is by feel (go figure right? lol can't feel a diagonal but I can feel a lead). When you ask for the canter there will be a distinct slight lean to the direction of whatever lead you are on, particularly on the first stride. So when the horse takes the initial leap into the canter try to feel which side the horse is leaning to when the forehand comes down. If you're unsure you can peek down after a stride or two to check. If you are on the correct lead the inside front leg of the horse will be forward when the horse is on it's forehand. So left leg forward when on left lead and vice versa for right lead. You'll probably have to check yourself for a bit, but once you get the hang of it you'll probably hardly ever have to.


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

I might have had a revelation! I'm watching dressage videos so I'm not distracted by the rider's posting. I've always watched the horse's shoulder and when the shoulder comes forward (when I would normally rise) the limb, in actuality, is coming back under the horse, not forward. So when the shoulder starts it's roll back towards the saddle is when I should be rising? Please tell me I understand finally.


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

You have it backwards.When the shoulder of the outside front leg moves forward you should be rising in the post, as the shoulder moves back towards the rear of the horse you should be lowering in the post.


Unless you are watching the inside shoulder, then you have it correct.


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

Taffy Clayton said:


> You have it backwards.When the shoulder of the outside front leg moves forward you should be rising in the post, as the shoulder moves back towards the rear of the horse you should be lowering in the post.


This is what I have always done, and somehow I am always on the wrong diagonal. I don't know what happens, if I get too caught up in thinking about it and miss the rising moment?


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Mmmmmm. If you are rising with the outside shoulder going forward, you are correct.

If you are posting to slow and get behind you might inadvertently switch back and forth, but I would think this would be hard to do.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Raven13 said:


> I might have had a revelation! I'm watching dressage videos so I'm not distracted by the rider's posting. I've always watched the horse's shoulder and when the shoulder comes forward (when I would normally rise) the limb, in actuality, is coming back under the horse, not forward. So when the shoulder starts it's roll back towards the saddle is when I should be rising? Please tell me I understand finally.



in a way, when the hrose reaches forward, the shoulder does roll backward. I mean, the scapula (shoulder blade) will go lower, and further back toward the front edge of the saddle as he unweights and brings his front leg forward. the side that is weighted will be higher, and more upright. it is the same with humans;
the weighted leg will have the hip higher.

but, you rise with the outside leg going forward, but it has nothing to do with the front leg, but rather you are lifting up off the push of the outside REAR leg. as it is weighted, then thrusts backward , it causes that side of the hrose's pelvis to be more upward pushing, and that is what you are rising off of, and why it's hard to post off a hrose that has no forward impulsion.


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> in a way, when the hrose reaches forward, the shoulder does roll backward. I mean, the scapula (shoulder blade) will go lower, and further back toward the front edge of the saddle as he unweights and brings his front leg forward. the side that is weighted will be higher, and more upright. it is the same with humans;
> the weighted leg will have the hip higher.
> 
> but, you rise with the outside leg going forward, but it has nothing to do with the front leg, but rather you are lifting up off the push of the outside REAR leg. as it is weighted, then thrusts backward , it causes that side of the hrose's pelvis to be more upward pushing, and that is what you are rising off of, and why it's hard to post off a hrose that has no forward impulsion.



I must be watching the scapula not the shoulder or point of shoulder. This would make a lot of sense.

It is very like me to over complicate things


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## Clayton Taffy (May 24, 2011)

Don't make it difficult, shoulder, scapula, point of shoulder, leg, knee or hoof. When any of the above, on the outside front of the horse moves forward, rise in the saddle.

Next time riding, sit on your horse without posting and just look down at the shoulders, watch them go forward and back. You will get the hang of it.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

Here's a solution! Get out on a trail. It won't matter which diagonal. I am a genius! : )
Actually, I am sort of serious. Is your only riding time lesson time or do you ride just for the fun of it also? Sometimes working on something in a relaxed atmosphere is beneficial as opposed to always having someone giving orders. 

I completely understand the diagonal thing. Sometimes I feel like the dimmest bulb on horseback. That's why I hang out here with all these smart horse peeps!

How's the snow?


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## Islebhandy (Nov 28, 2014)

My English trainer used to tell me, if the outside (wall) hoof is down, your bum is down. When the hoof is up, your bum is up.


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## Cimarron (Oct 8, 2014)

I had the same question and made a thread about it here:http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/how-determine-diagonal-505738/

I though the advise was helpful and I've gotten better at it. I think it really does come with time as you become more familiar with the horses movement


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

Dustbunny said:


> Here's a solution! Get out on a trail. It won't matter which diagonal. I am a genius! : )
> Actually, I am sort of serious. Is your only riding time lesson time or do you ride just for the fun of it also? Sometimes working on something in a relaxed atmosphere is beneficial as opposed to always having someone giving orders.
> 
> I completely understand the diagonal thing. Sometimes I feel like the dimmest bulb on horseback. That's why I hang out here with all these smart horse peeps!
> ...



I ride to enjoy it of course, at most I take a lesson once a month if that just as a refresher. Most of the time I don't really care which diagonal I'm on as long as everything else is right. I don't really have anywhere to trail ride though. 

The diagonal was just something I know I have a hard time with so I was hoping for something to improve on. The conventional way of explaining doesn't work for me for some reason. I understand why you are supposed to be on a proper diagonal, how it helps direct the horse when asking for certain movements, the concept of the horse's legs moving in diagonal pairs and even how you are supposed to find the appropriate diagonal. I have no problem at all posting in a rhythm and am even able to adjust my horse's stride by adjusting my posting tempo I just cannot for the ever living life of me see a diagonal. It is quite frustrating for me since it seems like most other people who ride find that posting diagonals are so easy. 

I have sat at a walk and a trot, watched the shoulders (by myself and with my trainer) and announced out loud when the shoulder is going up and down, and my trainer agrees that my announcing is right, but when I start to post it is wrong.


The snow is pretty much gone, although we did have about 6 feet here just last week. I was in the middle of the worst of it and was stuck in my own house for the week due to travel bans, both by vehicle and by foot. It all melted on its own in the same amount o time it took to clear it out. My driveway could not be plowed and in the amount of time it took to clear the streets and the driving ban to be lifted the snow had melted in my driveway from its full height down to nothing. That's life in Buffalo winters though haha


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I've gotten in the bad habit of always feeling the wrong diagonal. This is what you must do-

know diagonals, what they are, etc.

just sit and watch (personally I watch the inside shoulder and do the opposite but it may be easier/more normal to do the outside). Watch the movement of forward/back (up down). Don't over think this. The shoulder tells you what to do. It isn't complicated.

Sounds like you already know how to post so practice posting on both sides and swapping.

Now practice going up as the outside shoulder goes up (or as the inside shoulder goes down). That's your diagonal.

_Don't worry about "feeling" it. You can't feel it if you don't know it._ I bet when you learned leads you used to look. (at least most people do lol) I agree that feeling leads is easier then diagonals.

Now once you know it it's good to do it by feel without looking (above steps first!). Start at a walk and feel the hind legs then go forward with the inside hind as you ask to trot. Or sitting trot then practice up. Or both.

Two of the horses I rode the most growing up had permanent mechanical lameness' on the same leg. I blame that as I am very good at being consistent with my diagonals...consistently picking up the inside. I do swap right away but just couldn't get it to click motion wise for the initial start.

The other day I tried to focus on it more and really sit and isolate the legs and feel it THEN go up. It worked wonders. I'm sure I'd need a lot more work to fix 18 years of mental blocks, but that one session really made things click and I know I could do it more. If you're actually ready to really ride and put the horse in frame you should be able to mentally focus and isolate each leg (I find sitting helps)

Don't worry about feel yet. Don't be afraid to back up to "beginner" status and look, because in this regard you are a beginner and haven't learned it yet.

As you do more complicated things diagonals do matter. I'm glad your current instructor isn't focusing on that, but yes, you should know.

ETA- with your more recent post I'd really recommend a sitting trot and just really _feeling_ those back legs. Shut your eyes (if safe) or "block out" and focus just on feeling. If you do pick up the wrong one swap it immediately so you can feel the right one. Do NOT let yourself post on the wrong one. Now you sound more like you're in the exact same oat as I am


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## ecasey (Oct 18, 2013)

At first you have to lean over a bit and look down at the horse's outside (near the wall) front leg, watching it go forward as you are coming up to the peak of your post, but after you get the hang of it, you will see the slight movement of her/his shoulder out of the corner of your eye and you won't have to lean over to see it. It just takes practice, like anything else.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

If your doing it by feel and you're still getting it wrong then I still think my suggestion of someone calling it out for you is your best bet to fix it. Let them call it for a couple of tiFayq around the arena then you try to call it with them . by "it" I mean the outside leg moving forward. As the are c allling "now , now, now" with the moment of that leg you ride a sitting trot and see if you can start calling it with them. Let that be all for the first session maybe. Next time see if you can call it and only have them watch and correct if need be....still sitting trot. When you can call it correctly sitting than try posting again . 
When trying to feel it think of the diagonal pairs moving not just the front leg and see if that helps.
Shame on your instructor for being a jerk. If the instruction isn't getting the desired results its time to do something different NOT keep screaming the same thing and berating the student.

Seems like watching the videos confused you a little. You had the concept right before. You lift when the outside leg lifts. 

Thanks for the tips on the canter I'll definitely keep that in mind. 
Fay


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

I apologize. Somehow I missed reading several posts. I'm not sure about the shoulder rolling forwards or backwards I need to watch some videos to see that for myself. You could very well be right in that. I hope it solves the problem.

I missed your response where you have had someone call it for you. sometimes these things just finally click with us even though we've been trying our best and the practice has been correct yet we still don't quite get it right . ive so been there and done that !


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## BlueEyedPaint (Apr 1, 2014)

Hi! I don't want to cause further confusion with another suggestion... but just something you could maybe try when you ride, if you happen to think about it lol!!! It might help to check yourself and it might not... 

I have been told that if you watch your horse's neck crest as it falls to the left and to the right as the horse moves, it is a clue to which front leg is about to leave the ground. When the crest falls to the right, the horse's right front foot is about to leave the ground. When the crest falls to the left, the left front foot is about the leave the ground. It is easier to see on a horse with a thicker neck.

Try watching draft horses at a walk on Youtube. "The Visible Horse in slowmotion" is a good one! 

Good luck and sorry if I made it more confusing!!!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Lots of horses don't have noticeable crests 

OP just wanted to add, when calling it out get the rhythm in your head "up down up down". Then STOP looking down keep on calling it out, then start rising focusing purely on your voice. (I think if you do it with an instructor/ground person that would be best.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

would you be interested in posting a video of yourself riding? sometimes, if teh horse is trotting really lazily, it's hard to see or feel which shoulder to follow, since they hardly move.


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

tinyliny said:


> would you be interested in posting a video of yourself riding? sometimes, if teh horse is trotting really lazily, it's hard to see or feel which shoulder to follow, since they hardly move.



I would love to if I had one to show or the ability to make one. Unfortunately, (I hope you all won't be mad at me for putting all this time into your responses) I currently do not have a horse to ride. But even without a horse I consider myself a rider and am always thinking of things to do to better myself as such. I asked this question so I had something to work on and think about when I get back to actually riding. 

The best I might be able to do would be to get the video of me riding in an equitation flat class from well...years ago, but I've always had this problem so the wrong posting is bound to be in there. It may have been deleted, which last I remember my mom saying it was.  Very sad because I placed first in the class.

Just for fun, this is me and the horse that I rode, Ziggy (first picture) and a picture of my favorite horse to ride, Raven...hence my name lol (second) sorry it's so blurry. (and of course I'm on the correct diagonal, go figure) Then a better picture of just Raven. I have a very short clip of me cantering Raven but that won't help us at all haha


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## WildAtHeart (Jul 17, 2013)

Looking at the shoulders never worked for me. I have to look at when I see the hoof coming forward
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

oOOOOH ! Raven is yummy!

don't worry. there are other members here who do not have a horse to ride. I part lease a horse, so I don't, and never have, owned a horse. 
make you feel better?

it's good to think about these things to occupy your brain, but to a certain extent, until you are doing it, you cant' really make the physical changes one needs.


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## Raven13 (Apr 12, 2013)

Yes that does make me feel better. I can't wait until I can ride again. Right now the reason why I don't is more of a money issue than anything. I started out on my own about 3 years ago and just until this year I hadn't quite figured out the whole budgeting thing. I had been going check to check for the most part but now I've got some money saved up. So knowing that, I feel like I will be able to return to riding soon. The best part is, I'm still in contact with Raven's owner and she is very open to me riding/visiting him.


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## mslady254 (May 21, 2013)

Raven,
I was trotting Sonny in the roundpen yesterday, so I didnt have to worry much with any steering,and I reallllly looked at his shoulder blade. You are correct, it actually moves downward when the leg/foot lifts and moves forward. So, I'm pretty sure that your 'epiphany' will make the difference for you.

Also, for what it's worth, when I glance down to check myself, I dont look at the scapula/shouder blade, I'm looking at the chest area where the front leg meets his body and the leg itself. That doesnt take my focus as much off of track as the steeper look at the shoulder blade. It's a bit easier to glance down and back up from that perspective, imho. 

Another thought ....if your always, or almost always 'wrong', maybe just do the opposite to get it right ... ? that might simplify it! 

Fay


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## Lia and Midnight (Sep 22, 2014)

I use the sentence rise and fall to the outside wall. wall meaning the outside leg. so when I see the outside foreleg go forward, I'm up, and when it hits the ground again, I go down.


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

Raven13 said:


> I might have had a revelation! I'm watching dressage videos so I'm not distracted by the rider's posting. I've always watched the horse's shoulder and when the shoulder comes forward (when I would normally rise) the limb, in actuality, is coming back under the horse, not forward. So when the shoulder starts it's roll back towards the saddle is when I should be rising? Please tell me I understand finally.


I'm wondering if this slow motion video will help. The first minute is the trot. The person on the horse is riding bareback, so no saddle is in the way to distract you. The video is dark but the markings on the horse makes it easy to concentrate on the diagonal legs as they move as a pair and to watch how the shoulder moves with the front leg. Best of luck to you. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wbJZ_kVhww


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

The easiest way to learn diagonals is to practice glancing down WITH a friend watching you and watching "the leg on the wall." Practice checking, then practice without checking, THEN practice with your eyes closed. Your friend will tell you if you are right or wrong.
This exercise is a Great first step to becoming cognizant of the horse's movements with your body and learning to move with them while riding, move with the gait your are asking for, and moving against them for the half halt and halt. Riding with your body takes you to the next step as an equestrian. Many people never learn to do this. It shows how accepting and patient a horse can be, to ignore poor riding and yet still be obedient. They are really WONDERFUL companions! =D


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## NightFell (Dec 3, 2014)

I'm a new rider so this is something I'm working on for myself too. What clicked for me was changing the order, so instead of thinking "up-down", I started with "down-up". Another thing to try is sitting the trot and visualizing yourself doing it before you start actually posting. Now I've gotten to where I can start posting immediately and I glance down at my mare's shoulder to check though I'm trying to get to the point when I can "feel" it 100%.


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## emcdevitt (Aug 25, 2014)

I am a brand new rider who also can't find her diagonal. Part of my trouble is I'm severely near-sighted, so I have no clear peripheral vision. Suffice to say I cannot just "look down" and see a shoulder movement. I see a brown blur that looks like all the other brown blurs. I have become convinced that there really is no such thing as a diagonal, and it is the horseworld's equivalent of a snipe hunt.


I have not yet discovered the ah-ha moment where I get it and can "feel" the diagonal (I am taking copious notes here, though), but if I ever do, I promise I will post (ha!) how I did. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting, though....


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Try riding in 30 ft circles. You will begin to notice that one diagonal feels better than the other. This will help you learn by feel. Be sure to switch up to figure 8s so you feel it with the horse going in both directions.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

emcdevitt, No, "Diagonals" are NOT a snipe hunt, but good try!! I'm sure that you feel it but don't know what you are feeling. Honestly, if you just master posting, then you really just need an instructor or a friend to tell you that are on the correct diagonal or not. If it's wrong just sit two bounces and change diagonals. Easy, peazy, lemon squeezy. Diagonals have their uses outside of the show ring, but they were meant to:
1) help balance the horse moving on a track in the arena
2) help the horse's back when trail riding at the trot, to frequently change diagonals.
They are also designed to tire out a new rider SO MUCH that she will sit deeply in her saddle and her instructor will stop screaming at her to "find her seat." =b


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

emcdevitt said:


> I am a brand new rider who also can't find her diagonal. Part of my trouble is I'm severely near-sighted, so I have no clear peripheral vision. Suffice to say I cannot just "look down" and see a shoulder movement. I see a brown blur that looks like all the other brown blurs.* I have become convinced that there really is no such thing as a diagonal, and it is the horseworld's equivalent of a snipe hunt.
> *
> 
> I have not yet discovered the ah-ha moment where I get it and can "feel" the diagonal (I am taking copious notes here, though), but if I ever do, I promise I will post (ha!) how I did. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting, though....



huh? have you never actually caught a snipe? you don't know what you are missing!


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