# Dressage critique please



## MudPaint (Aug 14, 2010)

The one thing that really stands out to me is your hands/elbows. You have your elbows locked down. This takes away the elasticity in your arms... which leads to an inconstant contact on the rein (when you go by you can see them bouncing with your post) and that causes your horse to flip his head. he's trying to reach for the bit, but hits your hand or doesn't hit your hand. 

My thoughts are work on rolling your shoulders back, open up your chest, raise your hands and bring some bend into your elbow. You want a soft elastic feel in your hands to capture the hind energy, and that can only be achieved with you have something to give with (elbows).

Your leg looks pretty good to me. 

Annabell is a wealth of knowledge in dressage, I'm sure she'll be by later or PM her. I always love her and Maura's opinions. Welcome to forum.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Baily,

I remember your thread aways back about the head tosssing and showing both you and your trainer riding. With that in mind, I see huge improvement. You should post those older videos here, too so we can see how much ground youi've gained.

Your mare is so darned cute. She looks really good there. You are getting much better at creating some good contact with her. Trouble is, you still don't keep it steady enough so that she can find it and keep it. She does worry about her mouth, and that is a sure sign that you don't have a steady enough contact. What the above person said about your elbows and arms and hands will help a lot inmaking the contact soft but steady. 
As you go around, I see some "flapping" in the outside rein. If you could really focus on having THAT rein be really steady, all the time. Try to do you following of her mouth with a mental focus on the outside rein never getting loose enough to flap with her trot rythm. To do that, you will have to use an active inside rein to get some bend, and when she does, give her a bigger release than usual. Exaggerate a bit, so that for a few steps she is on ONE rein ; the outside. IF she can hold that bend that would be awesom . And since she is touchy aobut rein contact, having her earn a big release on the inside rein will please her and let her know that she can earn freedom there.

So, get the bend, give a big release, like a looping rein, and then praise her or reach forward with your left hand and stroke her neck but keep the outside!

As for your seat, your postition isn't bad. YOu still don't have enough weight down and through the stirrup and this was noticaeable when you transitioned to a walk; you tipped forward. As you went around I saw that the stirrup was too far forward on your foot and seemed not weighted enough. Open your legs off the saddle (straigt off , like doing the splits) , let them drop down to the saddle, lift your toes and find your stirrup. AS you trot, think about mentally anchoring your heels toward your horse's rear feet. elbows back, hands on top and engage the core.

Sometimes it looks like when you ask for more engagement from her that she rushes a bit. Her natural rythm is quick and short and you should't try too hard to change that. But, in order to get more engagement you do have to put leg on. When you do, if she interprets that as "go faster", you have to sit a bit heavier and breathe out and keep YOUR posting rythm unchanged, so she may rush one or two steps, but she will slow down to match your body and the idea is that the increased energy will become more of a reach under her body and lift of the back, rather than a fall forward and rush.

I see very definite improvement! really good.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

One question about hands. I am unclear on "quiet hands." Does this mean they don't move around and all the movement goes in your elbows kind of like a swing or doing a modified pushup? If that makes sense.

I need to think in my mind - sit back, sit back, SIT BACK!! 

Thank you for the encouragement and the feedback. I want to read it more thoroughly and think about it in my mind. 

Tinyliny, we did a couple of things that were suggested since the last post. The next day I made an appointment to have her teeth floated. She did have a hook. Second, got her a Myler soft comfort level 1 snaffle and finally worked on hills and trot poles. (I think she was sore.) 

Here is the old video. 




 
Thank you for the compliments on how cute she is. I got her in April of this year and this is how she looked. She's come a long way.


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

I think of "quiet hands" as though my hands are having a conversation with the horse's mouth. Are they blathering on endlessly, mixing in important points with needless, meaningless noise? Or do they "speak" to the horse only when they have something important to say?

Quiet hands go hand in hand with steady contact, IMO. Right now, because your contact is unsteady (you can see your outside rein flapping between taking contact and going slack), your mare right now is hearing a lot of "noise" from your hands. I know when I was first just starting out in dressage, having moved over from a western background where I was used to riding with absolutely no contact, I was hesitant to really take up a good, firm steady contact. One day, my trainer walked over to me and pushed one finger lightly but firmly into my left arm, and then used another finger to poke lightly but randomly on my right arm, and asked me which I preferred. That was my "Ah-ha!" moment. You might feel as though you are being kind and gentle with her because you have given her more rein, but as you can see with her unsteadiness in the bridle, she is frustrated with trying to figure out what you are asking of her. A constant, elastic (by "elastic," I mean following her mouth as she bascules her head in the walk and canter, and giving release through softening but not dropping the contact -- which is a very difficult skill in and of itself) contact will help you both. I can tell that she really WANTS to do what you're asking, she's just not sure what that is yet because your message (i.e. your contact) is a bit garbled at the moment.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Wow is all I can say! YOu have done wonders with this mare. She is looking really smart now! Who would have guessed!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

DxD made a great description of quiet hands. I, too, think of my reins as a way to dialogue with my horse. YOu will keep the following constant by the movement of your elbows, yes. The conversation will happen through your fingers, but your elbows , moving for and aft, will follow the horse's mouth , keeping a soft contact. YOu can kind of firm up your elbow for a moment if you need to and you can drop all the contact as a big reward from time to time. But the fine speaking is through the fingers.

keep them closed around the rein and when, for example, you want to suggest to the horse to flex her jaw to the inside and thus put herself onto her outside rein more, you will kind of move your left hand fingers in a motion that is akin to what you would do if you were milking a cow. Kind of a rolling , one two three squeeze of those fingers, with the thumbe staying steady on top. When she "answers" you, then very promptly stop asking and let her coast with that inside flex and ask with your inside leg very smoothly (not a kick but a kind of push) that she step under with her hind leg and curve into that outside leg. And when you feel that, let her coast again. 
The part of riding that is "do nothing" is just as important as the do somehting part. I find that so many riders can turn the ON switch on, but forget to also turn it OFF. if the On switch is on perpetually, the horse will tune it out.
this does not apply to YOU, just me ranting.

I genuienly think you are making marked progress and think you will be totally up for showing in the Spring.


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## QHriderKE (Aug 3, 2011)

I don't know why, but I'd really like to see that trot slow down.. I'm no dressage rider, but that's what I see.

I will have to agree with the rest on the contact part though, it will help her find the "sweet spot" for her head, making everything so much easier.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

QHriderKE said:


> I don't know why, but I'd really like to see that trot slow down.. I'm no dressage rider, but that's what I see.


Oh my! Took me forever to get her into a second gear!


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

tinyliny said:


> Wow is all I can say! YOu have done wonders with this mare. She is looking really smart now! Who would have guessed!


Thanks! I will tell her you said that! 

Yeah, she was pretty bad off when we got her. Hooves were all cracked and chipped too. Previous owner didn't know she was pregnant and she had no proper care and nutrition. Too many horses to notice her. Apparently she did have an ultrasound but nothing showed up. Back to the herd she went. Everything went to the foal, which I suspect was very little in the first place. Her foal is in my avatar picture. 

It's really amazing how horses can come back with a little TLC and patience. Sounds funny, but even her eye color and expression has changed.  (We love to talk about our horses.)


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks for the great feedback, really. It all makes things very clear and especially helpful with the examples. I feel like my hands must have been cement blocks on her mouth. ugh. I will definitely work on them. 

Here's to Spring!


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## churumbeque (Dec 20, 2009)

didn't read all posts but I just watched a special on TV today. When you are rising at the post up push your hands down towards the withers and when you sit you let your hands up to keep consistant through out


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## DraftXDressage (Aug 29, 2011)

BaileyJo said:


> Oh my! Took me forever to get her into a second gear!


Ideally, you'd get her to slow her tempo down while still covering the same amount of ground. As she gets more balanced and starts stretching into a steady contact, she should begin to loosen up and work more freely through her back, which will help her swing more behind and lengthen her stride. For where you're both at right now, though, I wouldn't worry too much about slowing her tempo down yet - at this stage of the game, forward is key. But with that being said, one of the things you can start thinking about and working on is keeping her tempo steady, down the long sides, through the corners -- everywhere, you should be striving to maintain a steady rhythm.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Personaly I thought she needed to go forwards more, gain a bit more impulsion as well. Worry about that before anything else. She cannot go in an outline without going forwards and engaging her hind end.

you personaly I think you need to bend your elbow and put your thumbs on top. at the moment your elbows are straight and locked which doesnt allow your hands to go with the movement and hence the mixed signals your mare is getting.


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## Spyder (Jul 27, 2008)

faye said:


> Personaly I thought she needed to go forwards more, gain a bit more impulsion as well. Worry about that before anything else. She cannot go in an outline without going forwards and engaging her hind end.
> 
> you personaly I think you need to bend your elbow and put your thumbs on top. at the moment your elbows are straight and locked which doesnt allow your hands to go with the movement and hence the mixed signals your mare is getting.



Agree VERY much with what is said here.

To the OP

Slowing her down when there is no rhythm established would be the worst thing. Forward does not mean rushing and if the horse should rush when driving more use turns and direction changes will NATURALLY slow her down and establish any rhythm lost..

Agree with the arms also. By having them this straight you can't give or take back without compromising your position. This would also allow you to monitor your contact with the horse which is very irregular. You also have a very irregular posting rhythm and this part I would try to relax more.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

I see what everyone is saying about my elbows. Moving them back will probably help with being able to sit back and allow me to roll my shoulders back - as well as allowing an ability to ebb and flow in contact with her. Like they are, I can only pull back. 

About the forward.... what exactly does "forward" mean....? (Yes, I know. Dressage 101.)

BTW, this feedback has been very helpful and appreciated.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

To me the trot looks like it isnt going anywhere, it needs more energy. not nessecarily faster but with more energy, she needs to want to go forward and find her rythem

It is a very difficult concept to explain over a forum, perhaps anouther member will have more ability!

Are you getting lessonswith a trainer at all? even one every month would put you on the right track, but if you can afford it every week would be best.


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## brackenbramley (May 29, 2011)

I have to say you have done wonders with that lovely little mare and you should be so proud of how youve nursed her back to health and she is SO wanting to please you  You will notice so much differnce when you have improved your arms and get more impulsion which will give you more energy and power in the trot without it being so rushed. Keep up the good work you are making fab progress and look forward to future posts remember impulsion not speed  speed = flat cant wait to see more xx


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

I've got a few ideas here. First, I see no consistent rhythm. While I like that you're trying to get her forward and into the contact, she's just going through the motions. Use your posting to slow down that trot just a little bit. Pick a song or count 1/2/1/2 so you are posting like you are a human metronome. Make sure she adapts to your posting tempo rather than tricking you into going along with her. 

Reins - my contact has been all over the place this year. I've had some very colorful remarks on my dressage tests. What I did to begin to fix it was, let my shoulders soften and drop so my elbows hang dead against my sides. Then I use my pinky fingers to find a fixed point on my horse, and keep them there no matter what. The trick is to be very careful about keeping your elbows and shoulders from locking up in order to follow your horse's motion. Just find the right contact, keep it there, and let her find it herself. 

Have you tried transitions within the trot with her? In the video she's going around without any changes in tempo. Once you get that metronome rhythm going, start working in some balancing half halts to get her to engage her hind end a bit. 

That's all I've got!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I have no hi speed internet on weekends so I am just getting to this. I will temper this by saying I do not recall the original video and currently do not have time to go back to it.. so this is starting from scratch. 

You have a nice horse here. You need to do more help her. 

First thing I wonder is why are you POSTING to the trot? This has your legs and your hands bouncing about a bit. Every time you post, you move your hands.. so if she is stretching she bets banged in the mouth.. and her head movement tells you that is happening. When you post, you are only IN the saddle 50% of the time. Sit the trot.. and then you have 100% of your time in the sdalle and able to drive her forward. When she goes forward, release with your hands (to let her go) and THEN post a few strides. I suggest sitting thru the turns and short side of the arena and then as you come out of the turn, drive her forward, RELEASE her with your hands and start to post. She gets rewarded for goring forward both by your posting and the release. 

It is hard to sit up straight and drive the horse forward when posting. Sit the trot, driver her into the turns with a steady leg on the girth on the inside and an active (not kicking) leg behind the girth as she goes into the turn.. as she comes out of the turn Driver her forward with legs and seat, IMMEDIATELY release her and start to post. You are on the straight.. don't worry about the diagonal right now. You want her to understand forward is good. 

Sit the trot and work on serpentines and figure 8's next with her straight where the two circles of the figure 8 touch and then reverse the bend as you start the new circle. Do spirals (again.. sit the trot so you can use your seat to help push her forward). 

Steady up you hands and learn how to do a gentle half halt into the turns as you drive her forward (this action is gentle.. like squeezing a spnge and releasing). 

Are you lunging this horse with a lunging cavesson and side reins to help her learn to bend and strack up properly? If not, she would benefit from this. If you do not know how to lunge her properly, then do not do it until you learn how. It can backfire if you do it incorrectly.

Again... a very nice horse. BTW I love her Cremelo foal. My first horse was a Cremelo and I have never met a cremello I did not like (disposition wise). I hope you still have her foal and that he is as good as his Mom.


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Elana it is perfectly possible to have a horse going forwards into a steady contact and still post to the trot. It is also perfectly possible to drive a horse forwards with your seat whilst rising to the trot. Infact If you can't keep your hands steady and give a contact whilst posting then you realy do need lessons.

Infact at this stage I would reccomend AGAINST sitting the trot as the horse is unlikely to have the back muscles to support a sitting trot, let alone a sitting trot in an outline. There is a reason that you are allowed to rise to the trot untill elementary level in dressage (I believe that equates to 2nd level in the US)

My youngster certainly won't be having me sitting his trot untill I have a correct and forwards outline built up and he already has a good topline and muscles and has been in disgustingly good health all his life. This mare has not been so fortunate in the past and is still recovering from that.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I agree Faye, it is possible but not so much for this particular rider. Again.. I am suggesting to sit the trot in the turns to help her to drive the horse forward and then post out of the turns and release to help her move forward. 

In this case, the rising trot is not helping this horse with this particular rider. 

Nice horse she has become!


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## faye (Oct 13, 2010)

Rising may not be helping the horse but sitting certainly wont help that horses back at all. 
Infact the vast majority of normal riders become more unbalanced when sitting the trot which will upset the horse even more. It takes a lot of practice and skill to sit the trot properly, remain stable, not rely on your hands for balance and be effective at the same time.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

faye said:


> Rising may not be helping the horse but sitting certainly wont help that horses back at all.
> Infact the vast majority of normal riders become more unbalanced when sitting the trot which will upset the horse even more. It takes a lot of practice and skill to sit the trot properly, remain stable, not rely on your hands for balance and be effective at the same time.


True. I forget this (balancing with your hands). It has been years.. since I was that new to riding. 

Here in the US most western horses are trained with the rider sitting the trot. If you sit it correctly (as you point out).. it is not so much an issue. Correctly being the operative word (supple back,.follow the horse's motion, not slap the horse and so forth). 

It is funny.. I have not had a horse now in a few years yet I still dream sometimes of sitting a trotting horse and the feel of the horse's mouth on a light rein.. that touch. Wake up sad it is only a dream.


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## BaileyJo (Aug 23, 2011)

Elana/Faye, thank you for the feedback. 

Unfortunately I agree that we aren't ready for the sit trot. Today, as she was standing tied and turned to look at something beside her, I saw the beginnings of a topline muscle along her back Yea! Been waiting a long time for the site of that little bulge. 

I have a feeling that I might become lazy with a sit trot too (besides lacking the skill to do it) and she would have to lug me around like deadweight. I agree that my balance is not there yet. We have been lunging with side reins and they have really helped. Not only with topline but her balance. Her feet were like dinner plates. But since I have been asking more from her during her riding, we have dropped off from it and don't do it so much. Maybe every third or fourth time we ride for about three minutes each direction.

Unfortunately too, the foal did not make it. Long, sad story. She had him out in the dry lot and she had no milk. He lived three days. I had checked out her bloodlines, saw her on a video and when I went to see her, she was not the same horse. Previous owner led her out and said, "this is Bailey". She looked horrible (warts on her face, cut on her neck, ribs sticking out, bumps on her skin, cracked hooves and all) but I knew right then when I saw her that she was the one. I got her very cheap because she was in such bad shape. There was just something that I liked about her - ugliness and all. Can't explain it.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I am very sorry for her rough start and the loss of her foal. 

I am glad you got her. Like I said.. she is a NICE horse. If you get a chance you should take some lessons on an old campaigner to help you with your riding. I used to do that pretty often. It is easy to fall into bad habits. 

Sooo.. after riding a lot of young or spoiled horses or horses I rescued I would go to a stable and take a series of lessons. Sort of like going for a tune up for the car. It was a riding tune up and then when I went back to whatever I was bringing along I would notice better progress. 

Sometimes when you are going a lot of miles you need to stop and get new spark plugs and make sure the timing is on... just keeps things smooth!


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