# Breeding a 3 year old mare?



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Absolutely against it. Horses aren't done growing until they are 5, sometimes 6. 

People that breed 3 year olds are completely irresponsible.


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

I've bred a two year old mare and she had her baby just fine and grew to the height she was supposed to be. I didn't know anything then or I probably wouldn't have bred her, but there were no negative results. 

My mare who is due to foal in April is a coming 4 year old. She was bred at three of course and isn't having any trouble at all, other than requiring more food to keep her in the same shape once she entered the last trimester. 

I personally don't think its bad at all breeding a three year old as long as they are a decent size. I've heard breeding a four year old is better for the mare however, because it allows her to finish growing herself without the added strain of carrying a foal.


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

No! absolutely against it...A 3 year old isn't even done growing yet. She's still a baby in my mind..She's not physically or mentally read to breed..It is a *very *irresponsible and selfish thing to do. Think about the mare's well being and not just a want to have a foal..


----------



## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

Thanks for the opinions everyone. Of course the mare would really be 4 when she foals.It depends on the individual mare I'm sure...mentally and physically. I've know several people that breed at 2 or 3 for foaling at 3 or 4. I just wanted to see how many people are comfortable with it...and more specifically if anyone has had an experience where breeding a younger mare turned out badly as a result of the age?


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

trainerunlimited said:


> I personally don't think its bad at all breeding a three year old as long as they are a decent size. I've heard breeding a four year old is better for the mare however, because it allows her to finish growing herself without the added strain of carrying a foal.


You can't just go off of size though. You need to look at the filly's joints. They don't close until they are over 5 years old. That's why you shouldn't ride young horses, and if they are ridden, it should be very lightly. So you breed a mare and add extra weight to her joints and knees that aren't closed yet? Not only that, all of the nutrition that you are feeding your mare is going to the foal, the mare is barely getting any. Just because her growth isn't stunted, doesn't mean that her body got all the nutrients that is should have.

And the fact that you say "I probably wouldn't have bred her" just makes me cringe.

What stallion owner in their right mind would ever breed a 2 year old. That's backyard breeding right there.

And not only that, your mare was bred as a 3 year old. And I've seen in another thread that you are going to breed your mare to another stallion as a 4 year old too? So there's going to be a baby on the ground, sucking this young mare dry, and your going to re-breed her? 

Breeding a horse this young is like a 13 year old getting pregnant and having the baby. 

Besides the physical aspect, a 3 year old, even a 4 year old is still and sometimes 5 year old are just too young mentally to care for a foal. So your taking an even bigger chance on having the mare not knowing how to properly care for the foal and the foal becoming an orphan.


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

CLaPorte432 said:


> You can't just go off of size though. You need to look at the filly's joints. They don't close until they are over 5 years old. That's why you shouldn't ride young horses, and if they are ridden, it should be very lightly. So you breed a mare and add extra weight to her joints and knees that aren't closed yet? Not only that, all of the nutrition that you are feeding your mare is going to the foal, the mare is barely getting any. Just because her growth isn't stunted, doesn't mean that her body got all the nutrients that is should have.
> 
> And the fact that you say "I probably wouldn't have bred her" just makes me cringe.
> 
> ...


I'm glad you typed all of that out so I didn't have to.


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

Well, how it was explained to me by my vet is that the pregnancy doesn't really affect the mare until the last trimester and the mare is a year older by the time she drops her foal. He also said that as long as you feed one well, it shouldn't prevent them from growing normally and I can see how it wouldn't because of my previous mare being bred early and growing out normally. Good groceries go a long way! 

I've also seen horses who were bred as two/three year olds who weren't fed anything extra and looked aweful, but it depends on the circumstances.


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Yes, it completely depends on their care. Your mare looks like she's very well taken care of. But I feel if your going to breed a mare, you should be responsible and wait until the horse is ready, both physically and mentally. Breeding young horses to me, seems like owners are just trying to make money because they have a mare and the stud fee is cheap.

Most 3 and 4 year olds haven't even hit the show ring yet. Therefore what have they proven themselves to be good at? Horses that breed should prove themselves before hitting the breeding shed, so to speak.


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

CLaPorte432 said:


> You can't just go off of size though. You need to look at the filly's joints. They don't close until they are over 5 years old. That's why you shouldn't ride young horses, and if they are ridden, it should be very lightly. So you breed a mare and add extra weight to her joints and knees that aren't closed yet? Not only that, all of the nutrition that you are feeding your mare is going to the foal, the mare is barely getting any. Just because her growth isn't stunted, doesn't mean that her body got all the nutrients that is should have.
> 
> And the fact that you say "I probably wouldn't have bred her" just makes me cringe.
> 
> ...


 
Well as I was very nieve at the time, I didn't really know what I was doing with the first mare. The stallion owner also was a liar and my foal almost didn't get registered, so he definitely wouldn't have given me any advice if it meant he wouldn't have money put in his pocket.

The second was checked out by my vet and given the ok to breed. Also, unless the foal is drawing the mare down horribly, I don't see why you wouldn't want to rebreed a mare if she checks out clean by the vet. I understand that a lot of the nutrition is going to the foal as well, but if the mare was barely getting any, she would be a bag of bones or would show some other form of not being healthy, which mine doesn't. I'm not wanting to get in a debate, I'm just stating my opinion on what I've heard and seen.


----------



## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

Just to let you all know..I did bring it up as hypothetical. I do have a 3 year old and did look into breeding her this year for her to foal at 4. But I decided against it. I decided to put her in training instead. I was mostly wondering..out of curiosity...if anyone has had a bad foaling experience _directly related_ to the (young) age of the mare?


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

CLaPorte432 said:


> Yes, it completely depends on their care. Your mare looks like she's very well taken care of. But I feel if your going to breed a mare, you should be responsible and wait until the horse is ready, both physically and mentally. Breeding young horses to me, seems like owners are just trying to make money because they have a mare and the stud fee is cheap.
> 
> Most 3 and 4 year olds haven't even hit the show ring yet. Therefore what have they proven themselves to be good at? Horses that breed should prove themselves before hitting the breeding shed, so to speak.


 
That goes around to the saying that a mare has to have a show record to breed. Why then do we have all these mares who are not broke to ride, but have babies who have won thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars? They were once unproven mares as well.


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

Piaffe said:


> Just to let you all know..I did bring it up as hypothetical. I do have a 3 year old and did look into breeding her this year for her to foal at 4. But I decided against it. I decided to put her in training instead. I was mostly wondering..out of curiosity...if anyone has had a bad foaling experience _directly related_ to the (young) age of the mare?


One lady I rode a horse for last summer said she had a mare bred at two. The mare went into labor about a week after her due date out in the pasture and died with the foal still halfway inside her. I think it was due most likely to exhaustion. They didn't have a taxonomy done on either.


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

trainerunlimited said:


> That goes around to the saying that a mare has to have a show record to breed. Why then do we have all these mares who are not broke to ride, but have babies who have won thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars? They were once unproven mares as well.


The likelihood of those foals going onto top showing farms is actually very slim compared to the amount of those foals going to slaughter or just trail riding homes.

On a side note, when I was 15, I tried breeding my 4-1/2 year old mare through AI. She had a complete vet exam with XRays by my vet and vet gave a thumbs up. She didn't take and I decided not to try a re-breed. I am very happy that I did because the training that I put on my mare in the next couple of years and exhibiting her at shows really went a long way for her career. She is a money winner and is going to be bred in April/May of this year for the first time. She is now 11. Well worth the wait.

My step-aunt was a horrible breeder. She had fillies running with her stallion, barely any were able to be handled and they weren't cared for properly feed-wise as well. They never had show careers, it was all about quantity, not quality. Many of her young horses suffered from having babies too early in life. The foals also suffered and she usually lost 2 a year. Every year. Thank God I don't have to ever deal with her and her animals again!


----------



## Wallaby (Jul 13, 2008)

Maybe I'm just dumb but I don't really understand why you would even want to breed a 2/3/4 year old? 
Wouldn't the stallion you would be breeding to probably still be around when the mare is older? If you're worried about the stud fee, couldn't you just buy a breeding now and hold on to it until your mare is older (I think studs do that? Letting someone buy a breeding now for later?)...?

Breeding a 2/3/4 year old seems an awful lot like bringing one foal into the world just so it can create a bunch of other foals... That doesn't really make sense to me.

Also, side note, I have seen some fillies that looked gorgeous as youngsters but as they aged and filled out fully, it became apparent that they weren't as A+ as they looked at 2 or 3 years old.

Personally, if I were in the position to breed a mare, that mare (if we forget about the near perfect conformation aspect) would be completely broke, trained in a specific discipline, shown with excellent results (or, in the case of ranch horses and others like that, have been doing her job well and for a long time), and be fully sound even after 10 or more years of hard work (barring any non-conformation-related injuries picked up along the way).
You can't forecast with 100% certainty that a 3 year old filly is going to be an amazing horse in her discipline. You can assume from bloodlines and such but there's no way to tell for sure before she actually gets into training and showing. 
Personally, I've seen enough A+ mares that ended up in nasty situations that I don't really see the need to be popping out "maybe's". I can see A+ mare plus A+ stallion as being a good, even great, thing but breeding an unproven mare to a proven [or unproven! ] stallion seems foolhardy.


Anyway, that's my little rant. Sorry! :lol:

ETA: Piaffe, I've heard horror stories of young mares getting too tired halfway through giving birth and ending up dying with their baby. However, I don't know anyone who's had that happen and I sure hope that wouldn't happen if there was any sort of mare supervision going on...
Another fact is that at the summer camp I work at, there was this little paint mare who was maybe 2, if that, and she was preggo. That entire summer she was unbelievably tired. She was basically like an old old old horse in the body of a young horse. I'm not sure if that was due to her pregnancy or the fact that we had to ride her anyway in her condition (hate that about this camp!!) but in any case it was sad. I'm not sure what happened to her or her baby since she didn't come back the next summer, but I can't imagine it being anything really great, knowing her owners.


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

CLaPorte432 said:


> The likelihood of those foals going onto top showing farms is actually very slim compared to the amount of those foals going to slaughter or just trail riding homes.
> 
> On a side note, when I was 15, I tried breeding my 4-1/2 year old mare through AI. She had a complete vet exam with XRays by my vet and vet gave a thumbs up. She didn't take and I decided not to try a re-breed. I am very happy that I did because the training that I put on my mare in the next couple of years and exhibiting her at shows really went a long way for her career. She is a money winner and is going to be bred in April/May of this year for the first time. She is now 11. Well worth the wait.
> 
> My step-aunt was a horrible breeder. She had fillies running with her stallion, barely any were able to be handled and they weren't cared for properly feed-wise as well. They never had show careers, it was all about quantity, not quality. Many of her young horses suffered from having babies too early in life. The foals also suffered and she usually lost 2 a year. Every year. Thank God I don't have to ever deal with her and her animals again!


 
Wow, That sounds like how a lot of people do things around here. I don't want to waste money on a $500 foal, I want an upwards of 5k foal. I would also not breed anything if I didn't want to feed it well. The mares don't suffer trying to feed their babies and the babies are fat and healthy. I can't stand to see skinny mares feeding babies who don't look like they are worth a dollar. I used to go to sales and have seen plenty. I can't imagine losing a baby due to carelessness.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

trainerunlimited said:


> I've bred a two year old mare and she had her baby just fine..... I didn't know anything then....



Please don't think this is a personal attack, because it isn't.
But this is exactly why people who are just getting into horses either need a gelding or a experianced mentor. 
If you don't know, don't breed. 

As for the question, I wouldn't. I really want a foal off one mare I have (She will be five this spring) but she needs to be broke first. So I'll wait. The only coming three year old I have isn't close to being mentally ready for a baby.


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> Please don't think this is a personal attack, because it isn't.
> But this is exactly why people who are just getting into horses either need a gelding or a experianced mentor.
> If you don't know, don't breed.
> 
> As for the question, I wouldn't. I really want a foal off one mare I have (She will be five this spring) but she needs to be broke first. So I'll wait. The only coming three year old I have isn't close to being mentally ready for a baby.


 I completely agree with you there, but my mare went along just fine after having her foal, whom I bought back and have again, and is now a show horse for a little 8 y/o girl. 

The mares mentality sure plays a huge part. The filly out of my western pleasure mare and a crappy stud is a 5 year old and still acts like a big baby. I doubt she'd make a good mother at all, ever.


----------



## SunnyDraco (Dec 8, 2011)

I know of one underage foaling that wasn't ideal. A Morgan breeder bought a long yearling filly from a different breeder several hundred miles away. The following spring, the new owners were shocked that she was pregnant and she had a small black filly. The mother wasn't quite two years old herself, she did not produce any milk for her daughter, and the little filly had a mountain of vet bills to improve her quality of life (don't remember all the details since it was 10 years ago). Since the the mother didn't have milk, she was placed in the pasture with all the other young stock to run and play like an almost two year old should. The foal was part time bottle fed, part time nursed from a surrogate that had her own foal to feed as well. All we can figure is that the original owners had kept all the yearlings together, including uncut colts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

Also..since we are on the subject...I have heard breeding horses young can cause "long term" or even "permanent" damage to the mare (back problems,weight problems,bad hips,hard to train,etc,etc.) has anyone actually had this experience? Has anyone ever had a damaged horse because they were bred too young? If so what was the damage? Did the horse ever recover? Again...just curious...


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

Piaffe said:


> Also..since we are on the subject...I have heard breeding horses young can cause "long term" or even "permanent" damage to the mare (back problems,weight problems,bad hips,hard to train,etc,etc.) has anyone actually had this experience? Has anyone ever had a damaged horse because they were bred too young? If so what was the damage? Did the horse ever recover? Again...just curious...


 
I'm not sure about the permanent damage and what that could be. The only thing I can think of you could blame solely on breeding would be something uterus-related. If a mare was to go lame or hurt her back, etc, after shes had a brood mare and riding career, you wouldn't really know for sure what caused it unless the consequences were immediate. 

Also, IMO, a mare who came back with a bad attitude didn't have a very leaderlike owner and is more likely to have gotten away with bad behavior in the past.


----------



## DrumRunner (Jan 26, 2011)

I haven't personally bred a horse that young but I have seen and been around horses that were..They can have long term back problems with their muscles and spine, joint problems, I've seen some not be able to be ridden because the problems have taken such a big toll on their body, the mare won't get much nutrients because it's all going to the foal so she can have stunted growth..all around be not as healthy as she should be.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

trainerunlimited said:


> I completely agree with you there, but my mare went along just fine after having her foal, whom I bought back and have again, and is now a show horse for a little 8 y/o girl.
> 
> The mares mentality sure plays a huge part. The filly out of my western pleasure mare and a crappy stud is a 5 year old and still acts like a big baby. I doubt she'd make a good mother at all, ever.


I know she did. Other's probably have, too. But it could have went the other way just as quickly.
Green leople just shouldn't breed. 

There is just so much more then letting a stallion cover a mare. What about conformation? Do you know how.to judge the faults on your horse and to find a mate to compliment so you're not running the risk of producing a foal with a long back or is pigeon toed? 
Pedigree? Do you know what lineage would be a good outcross to get the qualities in your foal for your chosen disicpline?
What about genetic diseases? Quarter Horses, Paints, and Arabians are probably in the top five of popular horses and carry the most deadly genetic diseases. HYPP, CA, LFS, SCID, HERDA.... If you're producing horses with bloodlines that carry those and you're not testing, you run the risk of wasting a foaling year and a foal's life. 
Sort of off topic, but breeding is BIG. There's alot of people out there producing who just shouldn't and it bugs me... Lol


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

Piaffe said:


> Also..since we are on the subject...I have heard breeding horses young can cause "long term" or even "permanent" damage to the mare (back problems,weight problems,bad hips,hard to train,etc,etc.) has anyone actually had this experience? Has anyone ever had a damaged horse because they were bred too young? If so what was the damage? Did the horse ever recover? Again...just curious...



My sister ended up with a yearling filly that was kept in with two year old colts. The pressure on her from being mounted damaged her spine and pinched her nerves. We thought she was savable but it got worse with age until she started losing motor functions in her hind end and we euthanised her.


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

WSArabians said:


> I know she did. Other's probably have, too. But it could have went the other way just as quickly.
> Green leople just shouldn't breed.
> 
> There is just so much more then letting a stallion cover a mare. What about conformation? Do you know how.to judge the faults on your horse and to find a mate to compliment so you're not running the risk of producing a foal with a long back or is pigeon toed?
> ...


I agree with you on the testing part. I was stalking another forum thread a couple years ago. They had what they thought was a cremello filly born, it was a very light cream color and died shortly after birth within a day or two. Ended up being the LWO, both sire and dam carried the gene.


----------



## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

CLaPorte432 said:


> The likelihood of those foals going onto top showing farms is actually very slim compared to the amount of those foals going to slaughter or just trail riding homes.
> 
> On a side note, when I was 15, I tried breeding my 4-1/2 year old mare through AI. She had a complete vet exam with XRays by my vet and vet gave a thumbs up. She didn't take and I decided not to try a re-breed. I am very happy that I did because the training that I put on my mare in the next couple of years and exhibiting her at shows really went a long way for her career. She is a money winner and is going to be bred in April/May of this year for the first time. She is now 11. Well worth the wait.
> 
> My step-aunt was a horrible breeder. She had fillies running with her stallion, barely any were able to be handled and they weren't cared for properly feed-wise as well. They never had show careers, it was all about quantity, not quality. Many of her young horses suffered from having babies too early in life. The foals also suffered and she usually lost 2 a year. Every year. Thank God I don't have to ever deal with her and her animals again!


What's wrong with a horse going to trail riding home??


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

I guess I'm the odd man out. I bred horses for many years, and have bred lots of 3 year olds for foaling at age 4 - never a problem, never a bad back, never a nutrition problem - no problems or issues at all. From my experience, and those of other long time breeders I know and have known, I would dispute these claims as groundless and based upon speculation rather than experience. A foal, and the accompanying afterbirth and fluids as foaling approaches is around 150 pounds - more for large horses of course, well distributed without pressure points as the mare is designed to carry the foal...nothing like carrying 150 pounds on her back, and most people don't think anything of backing a horse at 4 with 150 pounds of rider and tack. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of horses are backed at 3 or 3 1/2 without issues. I don't condone backing 2 year olds, but I always backed mine in the fall when they were 3 1/2 and never encountered any issue at all. All my horses are fully sound, and when I was breeding, all my broodmares were fully sound, and the health of my horses is always my highest priority.

I am well aware of the growth plate issue, and yes, there is some merit to it, but basic logic should tell you mares would not be fully fertile at 2 if their bodies were not ready to handle a pregnancy. I wouldn't breed a 2 year old, but I strongly dispute claims that breeding a 3 year old mare is harmful.

There is certainly nothing wrong with waiting till they are older, but 3 is the recommended minimum age. Here is one reference from the Univeristy of Missouri Extension, which is associated the Univerity's vet school, but there are lots of references out there. I'm sure you can find references to the contrary, but the consensus is it is perfectly OK to breed 3 year olds...


----------



## grayshell38 (Mar 9, 2009)

Mana's dam, Deja, was bred at 2 and had a foal every year after that until her 9 year old year when I bought her. She didn't seem as though she had any physical damage from it, but it is possible that something will show up as she ages. Poor girl never got to be a baby, herself.


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

I think you have a point, Faceman. I've seen lot's of three year olds get bred and fo out at four.. Mine all seem to be growing slow mentally right now lol


----------



## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

Faceman said:


> I guess I'm the odd man out. I bred horses for many years, and have bred lots of 3 year olds for foaling at age 4 - never a problem, never a bad back, never a nutrition problem - no problems or issues at all.* From my experience, and those of other long time breeders I know and have known, I would dispute these claims as groundless and based upon speculation rather than experience*.


 
I guess this is the main thing I was getting at/wondering. I have always heard the speculations..this will happen or that will happen. But I have never actually known anyone that has bred horses at 3 that has had anything bad happen. Other than things that could happen to a mare of any age. I _personally_ am neither for nor against breeding a horse at 3. Just because I decided probably not to this year doesn't mean I think it would be horrible. Horses in the wild are certainly bred younger (and..please no rants on this..I KNOW domestic horses and wild horses aren't comparable...I'm just saying..their bodies are/seem to be capable of handling it even in potentially terrible conditions.) Most vets that I have encountered also say 3 or older. Again...mostly opinions...which I was I was looking for solid proof/personal experiences that breeding young mares can do more damage to a mare than breeding any other age (older) mare...


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Piaffe said:


> I guess this is the main thing I was getting at/wondering. I have always heard the speculations..this will happen or that will happen. But I have never actually known anyone that has bred horses at 3 that has had anything bad happen. Other than things that could happen to a mare of any age. I _personally_ am neither for nor against breeding a horse at 3. Just because I decided probably not to this year doesn't mean I think it would be horrible. Horses in the wild are certainly bred younger (and..please no rants on this..I KNOW domestic horses and wild horses aren't comparable...I'm just saying..their bodies are/seem to be capable of handling it even in potentially terrible conditions.) Most vets that I have encountered also say 3 or older. Again...mostly opinions...which I was I was looking for solid proof/personal experiences that breeding young mares can do more damage to a mare than breeding any other age (older) mare...


Not to demean anyone here, and not pointing any fingers at anyone, because everyone is entitled to their opinions, but remember in an open forum like this you get a lot of opinions based upon hearsay, "I've heard", and water cooler talk. The fact is, carrying a foal is nothing - nothing - like carrying a rider. Mares are structurally designed to carry foals comfortably - they are NOT designed to carry riders.

If anyone is concerned, by all means wait till the mare is 4 or even 5 to breed - none of us should breed till we are comfortable doing so...


----------



## CLaPorte432 (Jan 3, 2012)

Cmarie: theres absolutely nothing wrong with trail horses. I was simply saying not every horse that comes from broodmares that just sit and have babies make it to the show ring. Id bet only 1 out of every couple hundred born will do something in the show ring. And chances are the ones that win hundreds of thousands of dollars arent as common as what some may think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

CLaPorte432 said:


> The likelihood of those foals going onto top showing farms is actually very slim compared to the amount of those foals going to slaughter or just trail riding homes.
> 
> On a side note, when I was 15, I tried breeding my 4-1/2 year old mare through AI. She had a complete vet exam with XRays by my vet and vet gave a thumbs up. She didn't take and I decided not to try a re-breed. I am very happy that I did because the training that I put on my mare in the next couple of years and exhibiting her at shows really went a long way for her career. She is a money winner and is going to be bred in April/May of this year for the first time. She is now 11. Well worth the wait.
> 
> My step-aunt was a horrible breeder. She had fillies running with her stallion, barely any were able to be handled and they weren't cared for properly feed-wise as well. They never had show careers, it was all about quantity, not quality. Many of her young horses suffered from having babies too early in life. The foals also suffered and she usually lost 2 a year. Every year. Thank God I don't have to ever deal with her and her animals again!





CLaPorte432 said:


> Cmarie: theres absolutely nothing wrong with trail horses. I was simply saying not every horse that comes from broodmares that just sit and have babies make it to the show ring. Id bet only 1 out of every couple hundred born will do something in the show ring. And chances are the ones that win hundreds of thousands of dollars arent as common as what some may think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I totally agree with that, you don't make any money breeding theses days with the cost of feed and fuel. Bloodlines and conformation don't do anything if you can't or don't have the training/er to take the horse in the show ring or the money to go to nationals.


----------



## MyLittlePonies (Mar 15, 2011)

Here's what I see when I look at in some people's eyes breeding really young mares........KA-Ching!!!!! $$$$$$$$$ Look famliar? :wink: I couldn't see breeding a two or three year old in general. Maybe a four or five at minimal and only if they're mentally and phsically ready


----------



## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I have known breeders that have bred 2 & 3 yr olds.The mares did fine & went on to be career broodmares,raising proven offspring. I think often it is a decision to made for each individual,physically & mentally how mature are they? some breeds or lines mature quicker.Personally think 2 is too young:shock: but a 3-4 yr old I would consider.:wink:


----------



## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

I bought my mare at age 15 and started doing some research on her since she is registered. She was born in 1994 and had her first foal in 1997. So she was bred as a 2 yr old. 

Then she had a foal almost every year after (10 in all) until I bought her for trail riding. I didn't know her history when I bought her of course, and I had no idea she was bred so much, but honestly other than a bit of a saggy belly (which is toning up nicely with riding) and a big saggy udder, she looks and feels great and she has tons of energy and we go on some pretty long rides. 

So she really seems no worse for wear. I know it must have taken something out of her physically, but any 18 yr old that can carry 250 lbs of rider and tack 16 miles in 4 hours (and barefoot to boot) can't be too broken down. And if I am riding with stock horses I have to hold her back the whole ride so they can keep up. :lol:

Her back is fine. A lot straighter than all the geldings I have owned.

So other than a saggy belly and udder you would never know. I do wonder how she ever found time to be saddle broke though! And yes, if it were up to me she wouldn't have been bred so young and so frequently. But I am lucky to have her and feel she has earned her retirement from the breeding business and now has a new career as a trail horse.


----------



## sierrams1123 (Jul 8, 2011)

Against it, nothing good can come of breeding so young.
Also why would you want to? You do not even know what the mare really looks like confo wise until age 5 or 6 so you really do not have a good idea of what it is your breeding.

IMHO, no horse should be bred till age 6.


----------



## SorrelHorse (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm not going to throw my opinion in here since its already been stated, but here's a "fun" little story for ya.

My trainer bought a yearling once. Took me with to go see her. Nicest **** little filly I'd ever seen, sorrel overo, LOUD markings. Stout as a tank even as a yearling. Built to have a stop like a SOB. From breeders we had never heard of before but the price was reasonable, breeding was great, so we both decided to bring her home.

Several months later that filly got a really big belly. So we took her off the round bale and put her in a pasture run. She kept getting bigger.

Finally we had the vet out. Guess what? That yearling we bought was pregnant.

At the end of her term she foaled a little filly almost exactly like herself. Little sorrel overo. We guess that the filly had been bred back to her own father. (By accident we do hope but you never know...) because he was the only stud those people had and was a solid sorrel. The mare she was out of was the overo carrier.

Scary, isn't it? What can happen when you're not careful? I think we're lucky both of them turned out just peachy. The timing she would of had to of been bred would be pretty **** close to the time we went to look at her.


----------



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I've tried it and decided that at least my horses aren't mature enough to be mothers at 3, physically and most likely mentally too. I've tried a couple times to breed 3 year old mares but really, never had any success and then waiting til they were 4 or 5, poof, instant success and along with that, never had a maiden reject either. 

I also don't believe stallions are mature enough to be breeding mares (mentally at the very least) until at least 4 years old and until they have a good solid start at a discipline. It's cost me breedings, and just cost me another one the other day because I refused to even discuss selling a breeding to my 2 year old cremello stallion. He can be a baby til he's 4, it's ok.


----------



## jess93 (Oct 14, 2010)

I bred my mare at 3years old just because she was broken as a 2year old and I fort I would have a foal of her before starting her career. She took first at stud had a great pregnancy and foaled fine was a great mum and is nw 5 and great
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Avalon Equine (May 26, 2011)

Personally, I'd breed a 3 yo mare before I would ride her. If she has good nutrition and care and is sexually mature, nothing wrong with it. As has been noted, the size of the foal doesn't have much of an impact until the last trimester when the mare is 4. But, it's like most things and you need to consider the individual. In nature, believe it or not, many, many mares are bred as yearlings and foal as 2 yos. Not saying it should be done, just saying Mother Nature usually has a pretty good grip on things.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

MyLittlePonies said:


> Here's what I see when I look at in some people's eyes breeding really young mares........KA-Ching!!!!! $$$$$$$$$ Look famliar? :wink: I couldn't see breeding a two or three year old in general. Maybe a four or five at minimal and only if they're mentally and phsically ready


And what do you base that opinion on? What is your experience or observation that brings you to that conclusion?

In reality, only a handful of breeders breed for money - those that have massive breeding operations that I equate to puppy mills, and those that breed the very best in their breed and discipline. In the former case you may be right - there are a few large assembly line breeders that breed willy nilly just for volume, making a couple of hundred dollars on each foal and resorting to volume to make up for the low profit margin. But certainly not the latter - breeders of top horses don't breed irresponsibly.

But the vast majority of breeders fall into 2 categories. 

First there are the small to medium size breeders that breed anywhere from 2 or 3 to maybe a dozen or so foals a year that are of very good, but not great, quality. Anyone that has experience breeding knows that this category of breeders does not make a lot of money - money isn't really the issue at all. I bred about 10 foals a year for many years (when the market was good), and after feed, vet, farrier, deworming, utilities, vacs, tack, and all the other expenses, I made about $10,000/year. I probably averaged 3 hours a day working with the horses during the week, and maybe another 4 hours a day on weekends. Mrs. Face invested less time, perhaps 10 hours a week. That's around 1700 hours a year. Do the math - that's $5.88/hour for our time...talk about cheap labor...:rofl: While it's true I also enjoyed some tax writeoffs, that was primarily due to my high income level.

Second, you have the breeders that may breed a foal every year or every couple of years, or breed just 1 or 2 foals in a lifetime. They have various reasons for doing this, maybe just for the experience of breeding and raising a foal (which is very rewarding), or replacing a lost horse, or breeding a mare they really like to continue her line - any number of reasons. While this group doesn't have a lot, or any, breeding expertise, and often their breeding decisions are not prudent, they are as entitled to breed as much as anyone else - regardless of what you or I or anyone else might think or believe. We experienced breeders should help and advise them as best we can to help them make the best possible decisions, but it is not, and should not, be within our providence to infringe upon their right to breed. There are wacko exceptions, of course...people that neglect or abuse their horses have no business breeding. In any case, this group is certainly not money motivated...there is no way these people can make money. You cannot breed a mediocre foal, pay for its care and the dam's care until it is sold, sell it, and make any money beyond what might pay for a couple of Big Breakfasts at McDonalds one Saturday morning and the gas to get there and back. 

So yes, there are a handful of breeders that might breed young mares "for the money", but I seriously doubt they make up 5% of all people who breed. Thus, I would suggest it is both illogical and inaccurate to generalize and opine that people breed 3 year old mares "for the money". 

Most breeders breed for the love of it, and are thankful it is a hobby and passion that pays for itself with a few sheckels left over...which we just turn around and spend on our horses anyway...


----------



## WSArabians (Apr 14, 2008)

MyLittlePonies said:


> Here's what I see when I look at in some people's eyes breeding really young mares........KA-Ching!!!!! $$$$$$$$$


If you're breeding for money, you're in the wrong business. There isn't any money in horses.


----------



## Casey02 (Sep 20, 2011)

I have no idea why people think it is ok to breed a 2/3/4 year old when there are not even being broke to ride....(which i dont think is ok a 2!) because in the long run if they are in it for "money" a broke horses usuallys goes for more than a brood mare. I am against breeding a horse that young. EXPECIALLY when there are hundreds and thousands of horses going to slaughter. Im sick of hearing about and seeing the "oopps" babies. People need to be more responsible.


----------



## MyLittlePonies (Mar 15, 2011)

They're used to be money once in this life time. I sure couldn't afford to breed ten mares and hope for the best. Personally, I do see a lot of people with dollar signs in their eyes. Obviously its coming from somewhere business or not. You don't make money in hardly anything. You're always paying it to someone or towards something. I'm more comfortable breeding at least four maybe five.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JustaSkippenJess (Jan 25, 2012)

i think breeding a 3 year old is a terrible idea!! i rescued a TB mare a couple years ago that was bred as a three year old and not cared for. it was a very loooong road to get her back to good nutritional health for both her and the baby. she had a tough pregnancy and was very over due. it isn't worth the risk to the mare and foal in the short or the long term. people that breed these horses so young just for the business and money end should be charged with neglect/abuse. pregnancy takes a HUGE toll on the mare's body nutritionally and physically. and whoever said they would rather breed a three year old before ride it, i am going to have to disagree 100%!! although it very much so depends on the individual horse, i would much rather ride a three year old than breed it!! people just need to smarten up with horses a heck of a lot more and use some basic common sense!


----------



## trainerunlimited (Jan 26, 2012)

JustaSkippenJess said:


> i think breeding a 3 year old is a terrible idea!! i rescued a TB mare a couple years ago that was bred as a three year old and not cared for. it was a very loooong road to get her back to good nutritional health for both her and the baby. she had a tough pregnancy and was very over due. it isn't worth the risk to the mare and foal in the short or the long term. people that breed these horses so young just for the business and money end should be charged with neglect/abuse. pregnancy takes a HUGE toll on the mare's body nutritionally and physically. and whoever said they would rather breed a three year old before ride it, i am going to have to disagree 100%!! although it very much so depends on the individual horse, i would much rather ride a three year old than breed it!! people just need to smarten up with horses a heck of a lot more and use some basic common sense!


 
On the other hand, the only experience you had with breeding a 3 year old was getting a mare in horrible condition and nursing her back to health from a bad body condition. Of course she isn't going to have an easy pregnancy. Poor thing. 

If you had a mare whom was healthy from the start and was continuously taken care of properly you wouldn't have had so many problems.


----------



## JustaSkippenJess (Jan 25, 2012)

trainerunlimited said:


> On the other hand, the only experience you had with breeding a 3 year old was getting a mare in horrible condition and nursing her back to health from a bad body condition. Of course she isn't going to have an easy pregnancy. Poor thing.
> 
> If you had a mare whom was healthy from the start and was continuously taken care of properly you wouldn't have had so many problems.


you are correct about my experience, but i still think it is a terrible idea to breed so young. their body has to be able to not only provide good nutrition for not only themselves but for their foal as well. along with the wear and tear on their bodies. it isn't a good idea to breed so young and i see absolutely no reason to do it.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

JustaSkippenJess said:


> you are correct about my experience, but i still think it is a terrible idea to breed so young. their body has to be able to not only provide good nutrition for not only themselves but for their foal as well. along with the wear and tear on their bodies. it isn't a good idea to breed so young and i see absolutely no reason to do it.


You are entitled to your opinion, but it is not based upon evidence or experience - merely speculation. There is no evidence breeding a 3 year old for a foal at 4 is detrimental in any way. It is certainly not "abuse" or "neglect" as you stated in your previous post, and most breeders would take exception to that statement.

I noticed the barrel racing pictures in your profile, and suggest you research the detrimental affects of barrel racing - specifically injuries and long term stress leading to arthritis, and compare them to the detrimental affects of breeding at 3 - if you can find any hard evidence at all. The results may surprise you and cause you to rethink your statements. Then again, perhaps not. However, I don't recall anyone saying you abuse your horse(s).

Not that I have anything at all against barrel racing...just saying you condone a discipline with documented detrimental affects, yet condemn 3 year old breeding with no definitive documentation of issues. That is an inconsistency in principles...


----------



## Jessabel (Mar 19, 2009)

I wouldn't. Just because it happens in nature doesn't mean we should do it. Domestic horses have people to take care of them, which is why they're generally healthier and longer-lived than wild horses. 

Think of it this way: the average newborn foal weighs about 100 pounds. In the last stages of pregnancy, that would be like the mare carrying a rider 24/7. For a 3-year-old, that's probably not healthy. Why push your luck? It won't kill you to wait until your mare is 6 or 7. In the meantime, you can break her to ride and start her show career. Or make a name for her in whatever discipline she was intended for. Do _something_ with her that proves she's more than just a foal factory. The dam is just as important as the sire, and you wouldn't want a foal by an unproven stallion, would you?


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I fully agree with what Faceman has posted. A 3 year old can carry a foal with no long term damage. Mares are built to carry foals with very little discomfort and they recover from foaling and nursing very well with proper feeding and maintenance.
Making comparisions between humans and horses does neither the horse or its owner any good. Shalom


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Jessabel said:


> Think of it this way: the average newborn foal weighs about 100 pounds. In the last stages of pregnancy, that would be like the mare carrying a rider 24/7. For a 3-year-old, that's probably not healthy.


No, they are not the same.

I will state once more...carrying a foal is NOT the same as carrying a rider. Mares are built to carry foals with very little stress. They are NOT built to carry loads on their back.

I am not sure what is so hard to understand about that.

If you need some sort of analogy to understand think of sitting down and eating 2 pounds of food and drink at dinner. You walk around with that 2 pounds and it causes absolutely no stress. Now take a 2 pound weight and hold it at arms length in front of you and see how long you can hold it there...not long. In both cases you are adding 2 pounds to your body weight, but one stresses and the other doesn't.

Comparing foal weight to rider weight is absolutely invalid...


----------



## SmallTownGypsy (Dec 17, 2011)

There was a huge discussion about this on FB between the Gypsy Horse breeders. Almost all the UK breeders breed their mares at two and have seen no bad effects from this. Hence them still doing it through generations of breeding. All the people on this side of the pond, the US, thought that was barbaric. However, from the breeders I've talked to in the US, a lot of them breed at three. 

My personal opinion is that it depends on the horse. We have a coming three year old. Will be three at the end of June. We've gone back and forth on whether or not we'll breed her this year. We've now decided it depends on how well she fills out this summer. Until that point, she will be lightly trained and shown. Nothing that will push her. Mostly ground manners, then some backed walking. Maybe an occasional trot. I don't want any heavy training to go on this summer. The people I bought her from had her checked by a vet before they started light training on her @ 2 and half and they were given the go ahead. 
I realize it's not the popular opinion on this board, but it is among the Gypsy breeders I've talked to. The horse can tell you in many ways whether or not they are ready.


----------



## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

Here's the thing, even if they are physically capable of carrying a foal at age 2, 3, or even 4, why the driving need to do so? Why breed so young when one could just as easily wait a couple years for full maturity? Many of you have already stated that there is no money in it. Aside from that then, what is the point of breeding a filly before she is mature? I can't think of a single solid reason for breeding a mare so young, unless someone thinks there is money to be made from it. Just because it CAN be done (safely or not, depending on your own point of view) doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.


----------



## cmarie (Dec 19, 2011)

Jessabel said:


> I wouldn't. Just because it happens in nature doesn't mean we should do it. Domestic horses have people to take care of them, which is why they're generally healthier and longer-lived than wild horses.
> 
> Think of it this way: the average newborn foal weighs about 100 pounds. In the last stages of pregnancy, that would be like the mare carrying a rider 24/7. For a 3-year-old, that's probably not healthy. Why push your luck? It won't kill you to wait until your mare is 6 or 7. In the meantime, you can break her to ride and start her show career. Or make a name for her in whatever discipline she was intended for. Do _something_ with her that proves she's more than just a foal factory. The dam is just as important as the sire, and you wouldn't want a foal by an unproven stallion, would you?


Not everyone wants to or likes to show, I'm sorry but to me show record means nothing, I would much rather have a horse I can take on a mountain trail and be safe than prance it around in an area. I would rather go out and gather cows with my horse than chase them around in an area, to me working horses are worth more than show horses, and safe family horses are worth a lot more than a high strung show horse that has to be drugged to preform than you have to treat ulcers because the horse is so stressed out all the time, and has to be kept in a stall and not be allowed to be a horse because it might get dirty or a blemish on it's coat. 

And how do you prove a stallion if you don't bred it, just because it has a show record doesn't necessarily mean it will throw nice foals.

Yes I do ride my mares and stallions.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

A mare can only have so many foals in a lifetime unless you flush embryoes or do embryo transfers. Both are very expensive. I do not breed my mares every year. 
Breeders understand one very important fact, the mares not the stallion are more important to the long term goals of the operation.
Why breed a mare so young? Because, the more colts she produces the better chance I have of producing a good filly I can retain foor breeding.
Like Cmarie has posted above not everyone is impressed with a show record. A mare that can reproduce a very good colt has a much better chance of remaining in the herd. A stallion can cover as many mares as physically possible a mare only has 1 offspring a year. Shalom


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

cmarie said:


> And how do you prove a stallion if you don't bred it, just because it has a show record doesn't necessarily mean it will throw nice foals.


That is a good observation.

You can always tell the novice breeders or non-breeders because they repeat the mantra "is he shown", or "what has he done?". The question they SHOULD be asking is "what CAN he do?" rather than what has he done.

There is an equation to breeding responsibly and sucessfully...

First, is your stallion and/or mare true to its own breeding, so it can be reasonably expected to breed true. This is why it is important to either use registered breeding stock or otherwise know the pedigree so you can determine if your breeding stock is true to its own breeding.

Second, does your stallion or mare have a natural ability to do whatever you want the product (foal) to do? If there are formal competitions for that job, and if you compete, and if the standard for success in the competitions is truly the ability of the horse and not how expensive the hat or pants you wear or how well groomed and fitted your horse is, or who you know/what circles you run in, then yes, a show record can help to determine the ability of your horse. But a show record in and of itself does not actually define the horse's ability - it merely measures it for those that want it measured. Put otherwise, Secretariat could run fast. If he had never run a race, he still could have run fast.

Third, does your stallion throw or mare produce good foals - foals that are themselves true to their breeding and have the ability desired. As you said, the only way to determine that is to breed them. Some stallions or mares have excellent pedigrees and show records but are lousy breeding stock.

The bottom line is there is nothing wrong with asking "what has he done?", but people that make breeding decisions solely on the basis of the show records of their breeding stock are making their decisions based upon one piece of a puzzle with many pieces...


----------



## apachiedragon (Apr 19, 2008)

dbarabians said:


> Why breed a mare so young? Because, the more colts she produces the better chance I have of producing a good filly I can retain foor breeding.


And yet everyone keeps pointing out (and what I know from experience) that there is little or no money in just breeding. So then why breed a filly young, just for the sake of getting another filly of breeding quality? Would you not then be going in endless, and pointless circles, if that is all you intend to do with them? Breeding on the off chance you would get another mare to breed? To what purpose? For whose benefit? If breeders now think the point of breeding is just to breed young in order to breed more, even without a profit to be made, or any goal other than more babies on the ground, then I am very glad not to be a part of it anymore.


----------



## Piaffe (Jan 11, 2010)

Unless it IS a very marketable foal. A warmblood with great lines,conformation,and personality. Does the dam have A show record? No...she is 3. That doesnt mean her foal couldnt be sold profitably...especially if the mare was bred to a top quality stallion which is all I would consider...just an example of my personal case. 

But I understand your point..

Just to breed any random horse to a random horse for a keeyoot foal obviously isn't going to be making a marketable or possibly even sellable foal. It seems completely pointless in MOST cases. 

Common sense goes a long way...and America seems to have lost most of it...

JMHO


----------



## doubleopi (Dec 27, 2011)

I am not a breeder by any means and probably never will be.

I think that there are two sides to this coin. 1) There are the breeders that have a very well thought out breeding program with specific goals and extensive knowledge about what they have and what that produces. 2) There are also those breeders that just want to breed their mare because she has ovaries and a uterus but have no goal, no real knowledge and no experience{Which by the way, no experience can easily translate into a misunderstanding about how much money they won't be making on this breeding endeavor}.

1) These people are not in it for the money. They breed horses because they love their breed and want to improve it in any way possible. They are trying to produce that "perfect" horse. Generally they have years of experience with the bloodlines they are utilizing and have had many, many, many foals. These people have an idea of what any of their own stock will look like, what they will produce and what they will be able to do from before they were even conceived. They, obviously, love their horses and they provide the best care no matter what. If these people want to breed a filly at 3...they probably aren't going to breed every filly at 3, but if they produce one that they know will bring them ever closer to that "perfect" horse and want to breed her at three. By all means, that is completely within their rights to breed a 3 year old. They know what they are after, they know what they've done and they have the experience and the drive to make sure that everybody is happy and healthy.

2) These people _may_ or _may not_ be in it for the money. They _generally_ will breed whatever they think sells (spots, dilutions, flash, lots of hair, curly hair, gaits, and rare breeds) or whatever they can get their hands on. They _may_ or _may not_ have a plan (even if it’s a bit haphazard) but they probably have no experience or knowledge to base any plan on. They _may not_ even have basic horsemanship knowledge, which is plainly evident in their horses. They _may_ try to justify their decision to breed so young by claiming to be looking out for their filly's best interest...i.e. not riding her that young so she needs to be doing something. Either way, these people _probably_ shouldn't be breeding anything. They _may not_ even have a plan in place in case something goes wrong at birth. If they want to breed the 3 year old they bought for $50 from the auction with no papers or history to the stud down the road but it's too expensive for them to make sure her feet are properly trimmed and she has a clean, dry place to foal, then absolutely no. They should not breed her.

However, just because someone should or shouldn't do something doesn't seem to have any effect on what people actually do! The people who are not category 1 breeders who care enought to stop and think about it and ask questions probably won't do it. The others are the ones that cause problems for everybody and put the entire subject in a bad light! If the only 3 year old fillies ever bred belonged to the breeders in category 1, this wouldn't have to be such an emotional topic because they would be well cared for and have no more injuries or illnesses than any other filly or mare, bred or not.

These are my thoughts as I have been lurking on this thread and considering the information and opinions expressed. And just an observation from someone who is not emotionally involved nor a breeder (and this is just my opinion from what I've seen)...The individuals who are saying that breeding a 3 year old is not always a bad thing are _not_ saying that _everybody_ should breed _every_ 3 year old filly. They are also speaking far less from emotion and more from _experience_, _logic_ and _facts_.


----------



## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

The true value of a mare or a stallion is not in their "show record" but in what they can produce. 
As Faceman has pointed out only those who are ignorant of breeding practices have a problem with this topic. To prove a mare you have to BREED her. Breeding a 3 year old mare does no long term harmful damage to a mare. Period.
Of the 21 mares that I own only 5 of them have not been bred me or my family.
I just purchased an Arabian stallion who is 15 becuase of the foals I have seen that he has sired. I purchased him becuase he will cross well on the mares that I own not the other way around. Has he ever set foot in an arena? No. After seeing the foals that he produced on a wide variety of mares he is well worth his price.
Breeding a horse is not a crime nor should it be. If done right it will produce a good quality animal. Shalom


----------



## Rumonek (Nov 3, 2010)

It's interesting to keep in mind that within the top Warmblood breeders world-wide, the most common saying is "Breed the best and ride the rest". I want my mares reproducing themselves or better to improve my stock, and improve the breed. 

The earliest I have bred is 4, but it has been scientificaly proven multiple times that breeding a mare at 3 does not cause any negative affects. It does not "stunt" the mare, doesn't break down her joints, doesnt make her a broken down nag... as with any other pregnant mare, she will require proper feeding and maintenance to be sure that she carries her foal and remains healthy.


----------



## Faceman (Nov 29, 2007)

Rumonek said:


> It's interesting to keep in mind that within the top Warmblood breeders world-wide, the most common saying is "Breed the best and ride the rest". I want my mares reproducing themselves or better to improve my stock, and improve the breed.


True, and not only with warmbloods. My broodmares were ridden enough initially to determine they had the ability, but after that I always pampered my broodmares like they were queens, and didn't ride them for fear of injuries, because I don't subscribe to breeding unsound mares. Good broodmares are few and far between and are worth their weight in gold...


----------



## Rumonek (Nov 3, 2010)

Faceman said:


> True, and not only with warmbloods. My broodmares were ridden enough initially to determine they had the ability, but after that I always pampered my broodmares like they were queens, and didn't ride them for fear of injuries, because I don't subscribe to breeding unsound mares. Good broodmares are few and far between and are worth their weight in gold...


I am the exact same way. I purchased one of my mares to be my show mount. Now that I've seen what she can produce, she's staying a broodmare and just a "for my pleasure" horse. She was in race training when I purchase her. (Arabian)

I have a multi-champion (to the world level) EP and Halter mare that I now have completely retired to breeding. Just not worth giving up a year with what she can produce.


----------



## Super Nova (Apr 27, 2010)

trainerunlimited said:


> One lady I rode a horse for last summer said she had a mare bred at two. The mare went into labor about a week after her due date out in the pasture and died with the foal still halfway inside her. I think it was due most likely to exhaustion. They didn't have a taxonomy done on either.


This could happen to any pregnant mare. I am of the belief that every foaling should be attended.......most of the times things go they way they should but when things go wrong quick action usually can save both the mare and foal.

From the reading I have done 3 seems to be the age that most start breeding their mares at........I personally don't have an issue with it as long as they are healthy, in good weight and growing well. I was also told from a breeder that if you breed them as they are turning 3 or 4 the pelvis is more elastic and makes for an easier birth which then helps with the foals that come later........if you wait till they are older all the muscles are much tighter so the first birth can be more difficult........this was certainly my experience with my mare she was breed at 9 and foaled at 10 but had a difficult birth.


Super Nova


----------



## JustaSkippenJess (Jan 25, 2012)

Faceman said:


> You are entitled to your opinion, but it is not based upon evidence or experience - merely speculation. There is no evidence breeding a 3 year old for a foal at 4 is detrimental in any way. It is certainly not "abuse" or "neglect" as you stated in your previous post, and most breeders would take exception to that statement.
> 
> I noticed the barrel racing pictures in your profile, and suggest you research the detrimental affects of barrel racing - specifically injuries and long term stress leading to arthritis, and compare them to the detrimental affects of breeding at 3 - if you can find any hard evidence at all. The results may surprise you and cause you to rethink your statements. Then again, perhaps not. However, I don't recall anyone saying you abuse your horse(s).
> 
> Not that I have anything at all against barrel racing...just saying you condone a discipline with documented detrimental affects, yet condemn 3 year old breeding with no definitive documentation of issues. That is an inconsistency in principles...


just because there is no " definitive documentation of issues" when breeding a three year doesn't in any way mean there are no serious physical risks you are taking. I really don't appreciate being "suggested" that I research barrel racing, I have been rodeoing and barrel racing my entire life and know dang well the risks it can have on a horse. Like I tell anyone that "suggests i research my chosen discipline" it relies heavily on the rider/trainer and their training capabilities and the means by which you choose to keep your horse both physically and mentally capable of enduring such stress. I could argue that same point with a jumper, horse racing, or any horse riding for that matter under a inexperienced rider. I simply state my opinion as do we all. But I want everyone to know that barrel racing is given a bad name by the people out there that hear stories in passing or "look it up online" and learn all the bad before the good. There are right ways and wrong ways, please keep that in mind...


----------



## MacabreMikolaj (May 9, 2009)

^

Calm down. The only reason he chose barrel racing is because it IS something you know about. If you'd had a jumping picture, he'd have chosen jumping. He's not bashing barrel racing, he's comparing your commentary to something you are familiar with to make the association easier.

There's a reason horses are fertile by 2 years old, and I honestly think that we know "better then nature" is absurd. Horses are meant to give birth, just like any animal. So any mare used as a broodmare is serving her specific function in the circle of life a lot better then a mare being ridden. Breeding as soon as they become fertile can be risky, but breeding at 3 for her to be 4 when she gives birth is extremely commonplace and no extra risks have ever been documented.

I mean, answer this then. Why breed a 4 year old then? How are we experts at the "magic number"? We all pretty much know a horse doesn't finish fully developing until about 7 years old. So by that, none of us should EVER breed or ride a horse before the age of 7. I think it's silly for anyone to assume they are the "expert opinion" on exactly when a horse is ready to be bred or ridden - we just don't know. We DO know, through extensive history, that no ill effects have been documented from breeding 3 year olds just as MOST 2 year olds broken in nicely will not come up unsound.


----------



## Rumonek (Nov 3, 2010)

JustaSkippenJess said:


> just because there is no " definitive documentation of issues" when breeding a three year doesn't in any way mean there are no serious physical risks you are taking. I really don't appreciate being "suggested" that I research barrel racing, I have been rodeoing and barrel racing my entire life and know dang well the risks it can have on a horse. Like I tell anyone that "suggests i research my chosen discipline" it relies heavily on the rider/trainer and their training capabilities and the means by which you choose to keep your horse both physically and mentally capable of enduring such stress. I could argue that same point with a jumper, horse racing, or any horse riding for that matter under a inexperienced rider. I simply state my opinion as do we all. But I want everyone to know that barrel racing is given a bad name by the people out there that hear stories in passing or "look it up online" and learn all the bad before the good. There are right ways and wrong ways, please keep that in mind...


You are taking a "serious" risk breeding any age mare. Injury or even death to mare, foal, or both.


----------

