# Oh, the discouragement..



## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

Don't worry, there's a fine balance between shutting down a horse and impulsion. You will get that back end working when he finds that impulsion from moving out of the back-up. This can be corrected with the use of a Dressage crop. Usually when I'm working on slowing my horses, I'll do a lot of backing and transitional work. Sometimes they get hesitant about going forward after that, because they think they'll just be made to back up again. Use a Dressage crop to back up your leg cues, and you'll start to feel the impulsion better. I'll come around, stop, back back back, and then immediately ask for the forward lope with the aid of my crop. When they listen to your leg immediately, you will feel them round up from the backing and step elegantly up into the lope. Then after a while you'll have to deal with them getting a little worked up, and that's when you can lose the crop.


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## Klassic Superstar (Nov 30, 2009)

I'm sorry, iv been there all so often myself with the young horses I have had. 10 steps forward 6 steps back. You will get back to where you where! Maybe take him out of the arena for a trail ride or change things up to riding bareback. Just switch up the routine you have now so that he doesn't have a clue to what you guys are going to do that day? Or Mabel give him some time off, do some liht massage work and just lung hi in the arena and work on forwardness from the ground? Just some suggestions. Don't you wish they could talk to tell us what they are thinking when doing things like this, we would be able to help them out much faster and correctly! I was having a few of those moments a couple months ago when I started Ollie back to work from being so sick, now we are back in the game but moving him home soon so I feel the change coming on already. 

Good luck, take a deep breath and know we all have confidence in both you and shamrock to get back to where you where and go even further!
Sam


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

If it's not working, change it. Forget about transitions for awhile and just ride him forward, forward, forward, to the point of almost knocking him off balance. If he thinks he's got the game figured out, change the game. After you get the forward back, maybe try trot/canter transitions instead of walk/trot to keep a little more life into it.


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

Klassic Superstar said:


> I'm sorry, iv been there all so often myself with the young horses I have had. 10 steps forward 6 steps back. You will get back to where you where! Maybe take him out of the arena for a trail ride or change things up to riding bareback. Just switch up the routine you have now so that he doesn't have a clue to what you guys are going to do that day? Or Mabel give him some time off, do some liht massage work and just lung hi in the arena and work on forwardness from the ground? Just some suggestions. Don't you wish they could talk to tell us what they are thinking when doing things like this, we would be able to help them out much faster and correctly! I was having a few of those moments a couple months ago when I started Ollie back to work from being so sick, now we are back in the game but moving him home soon so I feel the change coming on already.
> 
> Good luck, take a deep breath and know we all have confidence in both you and shamrock to get back to where you where and go even further!
> Sam


That's what's really strange, I haven't done the trot-halt-back transitions, etc. in a while and last week I gave him the week off from any jump work, even spending one day just working with him on the ground and loving on him. So I'm not sure exactly what's going on, unless I'm accidentally cueing him to stop or he just thinks that's what he's supposed to do since we used to do that exercise so much. 

Yes! I definitely wish he could just tell me and we could talk it out. Haha.

Thanks for the encouragement, I'll try some new things with him.


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

oh vair oh said:


> Don't worry, there's a fine balance between shutting down a horse and impulsion. You will get that back end working when he finds that impulsion from moving out of the back-up. This can be corrected with the use of a Dressage crop. Usually when I'm working on slowing my horses, I'll do a lot of backing and transitional work. Sometimes they get hesitant about going forward after that, because they think they'll just be made to back up again. Use a Dressage crop to back up your leg cues, and you'll start to feel the impulsion better. I'll come around, stop, back back back, and then immediately ask for the forward lope with the aid of my crop. When they listen to your leg immediately, you will feel them round up from the backing and step elegantly up into the lope. Then after a while you'll have to deal with them getting a little worked up, and that's when you can lose the crop.


I don't have a dressage whip, just a regular crop, which I use, but he is pretty much unresponsive to it when I use it to back up my leg. I would really have to whack him (which I don't and don't want to) to get him to go. Maybe he's just being lazy..? Anyways, would getting a dressage whip make a difference? If so, hopefully Tractor Supply has one so I don't have to order one online..


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

MyBoyPuck said:


> If it's not working, change it. Forget about transitions for awhile and just ride him forward, forward, forward, to the point of almost knocking him off balance. If he thinks he's got the game figured out, change the game. After you get the forward back, maybe try trot/canter transitions instead of walk/trot to keep a little more life into it.


The problem is getting him to go, he wouldn't even walk forward when I got on him. I'd finally get him walking after bumping with my leg in all sorts of ways and using my crop to back up my leg and he'd walk forward a few steps then stop again. I haven't worked on transitions, other than trot-canter, for a while now. He has no problem trotting or cantering, but his walk seems to be ruined. I hate to just immediately trot him right when I get on, I want to warm him up properly. :/


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Video would help. We might be able to see if you're sending him mixed signals, if there's any pain in play, or he's just being a butt head.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

What does he do when he stops?? Is he buddy or barn sour?? Maybe wanting to go back home??


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

MyBoyPuck said:


> Video would help. We might be able to see if you're sending him mixed signals, if there's any pain in play, or he's just being a butt head.


I'll try to video him, but it'll certainly be a boring one. Haha. And HOPEFULLY he'll not do it anymore.


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

nvr2many said:


> What does he do when he stops?? Is he buddy or barn sour?? Maybe wanting to go back home??


When he stops, he just stands there. He'll back up, I can turn his feet in circles, but he just doesn't want to go forward.

I don't think he's buddy sour, he doesn't really have any horses he's particularly buddy-buddy with. He's actually kind of a loner. I think of him as his pasture mates' annoying little brother.


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## nvr2many (Jan 18, 2011)

sarahkgamble said:


> When he stops, he just stands there. He'll back up, I can turn his feet in circles, but he just doesn't want to go forward.
> 
> I don't think he's buddy sour, he doesn't really have any horses he's particularly buddy-buddy with. He's actually kind of a loner. I think of him as his pasture mates' annoying little brother.


Ha ha that's funny. I guess what I wanted to know is, will he turn around and go forward the other way, just not the way you want to go? Or not forward at all? What do you do at this point?? Do you get off and lead him back? Just curious. I have one that's a bit buddy sour. We are working on it, :wink:


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

My sister's horse did this to me, so I decided to make it my own idea and not hers by going with it and asking for the back up, plus I tap her on the shoulder. I couldn't stand watching all the constant leg kicking my niece was doing and she likes to crow hop if you touch her on the backend. It works, she is pretty smart so I like to mix it up a lot. ;0)


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

nvr2many said:


> Ha ha that's funny. I guess what I wanted to know is, will he turn around and go forward the other way, just not the way you want to go? Or not forward at all? What do you do at this point?? Do you get off and lead him back? Just curious. I have one that's a bit buddy sour. We are working on it, :wink:


He won't go forward in any direction, but I can move his feet other ways. When this happens, I've tried applying leg and bumping in random patterns and adding crop and if I have to, just asking him to trot. He's fine skipping the walk and he'll trot and canter forward, just not walk. I've never given up and walked back to the barn, we've just tried to push through.


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

chandra1313 said:


> My sister's horse did this to me, so I decided to make it my own idea and not hers by going with it and asking for the back up, plus I tap her on the shoulder. I couldn't stand watching all the constant leg kicking my niece was doing and she likes to crow hop if you touch her on the backend. It works, she is pretty smart so I like to mix it up a lot. ;0)


I've thought about just backing, but then I feel like he's won.  I probably look more like your niece. :/ However, I did notice that if I tapped him on the behind instead of where my leg was, he would go. Granted, the first time he kicked out when I did it, but his kicking isn't scary. I can ride it easy and continue on. He's brilliant, so I guess I messed up when I did the same exercise to warm up a lot. Now I'm paying for it because Einstein horse over here is already pre-planning what I'm going to ask him.


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## oh vair oh (Mar 27, 2012)

sarahkgamble said:


> I don't have a dressage whip, just a regular crop, which I use, but he is pretty much unresponsive to it when I use it to back up my leg. I would really have to whack him (which I don't and don't want to) to get him to go. Maybe he's just being lazy..? Anyways, would getting a dressage whip make a difference? If so, hopefully Tractor Supply has one so I don't have to order one online..


Why would you not want to whack him hard? His butt is made of leather and muscle. If he's not going when you tell him to, you need to be the tough herd leader.

The thing about the Dressage whip that I like, is that you can use it while still holding both reins. Also, it is positioned near the flank, which is more effective than the buttocks because it's closer to your leg (for reinforcement) and the area is less protected. You'll be going along, and if he decides to stop, you don't have to change positions at all to give him a healthy tap on the flank.

Another thing you can do is when he stops, make him pivot like mad or disengage the hindquarters. Whenever my horse gets upset about loping off, and decides to just balk up, I'll pull him sideways and either make him spin around like a reining horse (using the crop on his shoulder if he gets stuck), or I'll pull his head in and push that hindquarters around.


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

oh vair oh said:


> Why would you not want to whack him hard? His butt is made of leather and muscle. If he's not going when you tell him to, you need to be the tough herd leader.
> 
> The thing about the Dressage whip that I like, is that you can use it while still holding both reins. Also, it is positioned near the flank, which is more effective than the buttocks because it's closer to your leg (for reinforcement) and the area is less protected. You'll be going along, and if he decides to stop, you don't have to change positions at all to give him a healthy tap on the flank.
> 
> Another thing you can do is when he stops, make him pivot like mad or disengage the hindquarters. Whenever my horse gets upset about loping off, and decides to just balk up, I'll pull him sideways and either make him spin around like a reining horse (using the crop on his shoulder if he gets stuck), or I'll pull his head in and push that hindquarters around.


I've never been a person who really likes using a crop unless it's absolutely necessary. I don't condone whacking him with it, especially when it doesn't have an effect. When I said I'd really have to whack him hard, I mean it, it'd have to be REAL hard and I'm just not up for that. There are other ways I can get his feet moving through one reins and such where if the crop is needed, I can just tap and he'll move. 

I may look into getting a dressage whip and see if it makes a difference.


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## RoosHuman (Dec 27, 2011)

If you feel comfortable, maybe try some hacks out on the trail? Maybe a change of scenery is just what he needs.


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

RoosHuman said:


> If you feel comfortable, maybe try some hacks out on the trail? Maybe a change of scenery is just what he needs.


He does enjoy riding on the trails, usually. However, I usually ride alone and I'm not sure that I'm allowed to go out by myself. The trails aren't long or anything and others do it, but I certainly don't want to get fussed at. I have gone out a couple of times while my boyfriend was feeding though and let him know I was going and to keep an eye out for either a riderless Shamrock or for me being gone too long and Shamrock really enjoys it. When I go out with other horses, he tends to act up a good bit though, which makes me uncomfortable.


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## RoosHuman (Dec 27, 2011)

Maybe you could vary the work you are doing in the arena by practicing it in an empty field. You would still be enclosed, but he may be more motivated. Just an idea.


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

RoosHuman said:


> Maybe you could vary the work you are doing in the arena by practicing it in an empty field. You would still be enclosed, but he may be more motivated. Just an idea.


Haha, well, we've been riding in the jump field lately instead of the arena. The arena no longer has jumps, they're all in the field, so that's what we've been doing. Maybe I should switch back to the arena!


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## dressagegirl77 (Apr 9, 2012)

you need to get him to ride forward, trotting with a lot of push, stop all the transitions, stop with the backing, backing is not that important and i would not be working on it a lot, i just make sure my horse can do it and we are good. Even work on extended trot, canter, with push. he needs to know that he cant just poke around the ring, and needs to work forward. he may not be happy when you make him trot really forward, but you have to get him to do it, he will stop the backing up


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## sirgalahadkem (Apr 24, 2012)

sarahkgamble said:


> When he stops, he just stands there. He'll back up, I can turn his feet in circles, but he just doesn't want to go forward.
> 
> I don't think he's buddy sour, he doesn't really have any horses he's particularly buddy-buddy with. He's actually kind of a loner. I think of him as his pasture mates' annoying little brother.



Sounds exactly what my paint is doing now except his escalated into a complete melt down... He was burnt out from training! The day he had a melt down he tried to buck me off after I tried getting him to move forward... I do not use whips, crops, or spurs so I was using my leg only... he's very sensitive and over reacted. I got off and lunged him until he was sweating pretty bad then got back on and asked him to move forward again. I got a couple circles and backing up with pinned ears so I got off and lunged him again. I got back on and managed to get him to walk out of the ring and toward one of the many trails we ride on. Immediately, his head went down, he relaxed, softened, and started doing everything I asked but on the trail. I got a friend to follow me just in case... She went in front for a bit but she's kind of slow and he kept looking back at me as if he were asking to go faster. I moved him around to the front again and he just perked right up and looked so happy! I'm going to do a month of just trail riding but use it as more training such as teaching him to neck rein around the trees and backing up around obstacles to work on leg cues. I doubt he would figure out it's really training. Maybe try something like that on your horse. Go to different trail areas and just go for fun at first. Maybe a nice relaxed walk on a loose rein to take in the sights. A couple days later, ask him to do transitions say from one fence post to the 3rd one down or from one tree to another tree further away and make it a game. For example, you're walking up to your "marker" where you want your transition... see how many strides it takes him to transition. Get a good average for the week (say 4 strides). Next week see if you can get him down to 3, the next week 2, and so-on. Obviously don't ask for the same transition at the same spot. Always change it up. I even change up my dismounting spot. One day I might pick a specific tree. I will actually vocalize and say, "ok if you go to that rock without an argument, we're done for the day and I'll get off" (we have problems with him being pasture sour where, any time I want to go around the pasture to another trail from the one leading to the pasture, he always stops and fights with me thinking that it's where we need to stop so I can put him away). I change my dismount spot every time. It might be at the opposite end of the pasture, on the trail before we even make it to the pasture, down a different trail, a specific rock by the run-in shed, or at the back door of the old gooseneck trailer we use as a tack/feed/hay room. Another routine mix up I found is to get one of the 40" horse balls. Introduce it to your horse in hand so he's not scared of it. I started working with that kind of ball some months back and everything just started clicking for my horse! He started getting the hang of neck reining because I would only neck rein him to go after the ball (he's pretty much auto-pilot chasing it but I'd follow his movements with my rein hand...). He's also started to be able to do walk to lope transitions where he had no idea what I was asking previously. He really had to learn to move off his hind end because he was kicking the ball with his fronts. I noticed a wonderful increase in muscle since starting with the ball and also his gaits are much smoother, slower, and easier to sit!

I hope some of these ideas help!


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## sirgalahadkem (Apr 24, 2012)

by the way.. here's a video of my horse and his ball. No I'm not using reins for most of this. you'll see them at my sides. I'm not the best rider in the world either (never had professional lessons just learned to ride at a hack farm where they let you go out on your own for an hour anywhere on their 80+ acres)


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

Thanks for the ideas!

Shamrock has so much personality and is so curious, I wonder if the ball might be fun for him too! Your horse certainly seems to enjoy it. 

As for the trails, I normally ride alone and I'm confused as to whether I'm allowed to go out by myself. Other people go out alone, but I always thought the rule was that you can't. Whenever I take him on trails with other horses, he acts up a lot worse than if I just go out with him (I've done it a few times). The other day we rode with 2 girls to some new trails we just got put in and he was a mess, head tossing, prancing, etc. so I had to turn him back. However, I should've known better than to take him out on the trails that day.. The dogs went with us, which he hates. It was super windy, which freaks him out when in the trees. I just hopped on him and went, without working out some energy first. And it was my first time taking him over there. Maybe we'll try again under better circumstances. I'm spending all day out at the barn today, so we'll see.


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## chandra1313 (Jul 12, 2011)

The ball thing looks like so much fun, I have one and I leave it in the field but I've never tried that. I'm going to give that a try.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

Have you had his feet done recently? 

This kind of sounds to me like he might be in pain.


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## sirgalahadkem (Apr 24, 2012)

sarahkgamble said:


> Thanks for the ideas!
> 
> Shamrock has so much personality and is so curious, I wonder if the ball might be fun for him too! Your horse certainly seems to enjoy it.
> 
> As for the trails, I normally ride alone and I'm confused as to whether I'm allowed to go out by myself. Other people go out alone, but I always thought the rule was that you can't. Whenever I take him on trails with other horses, he acts up a lot worse than if I just go out with him (I've done it a few times). The other day we rode with 2 girls to some new trails we just got put in and he was a mess, head tossing, prancing, etc. so I had to turn him back. However, I should've known better than to take him out on the trails that day.. The dogs went with us, which he hates. It was super windy, which freaks him out when in the trees. I just hopped on him and went, without working out some energy first. And it was my first time taking him over there. Maybe we'll try again under better circumstances. I'm spending all day out at the barn today, so we'll see.


I actually just rode alone myself today. I just carry my cell phone with me. I'm diabetic so I had that tattooed on my arm just in case and I carry medical info in a wallet with a chain attached (so I don't lose it on the trail like I've done before)


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

Shasta1981 said:


> Have you had his feet done recently?
> 
> This kind of sounds to me like he might be in pain.


No, they got done a couple of weeks ago. 

If it were pain, he'd be off in his trot. He's been like that before if ridden a day or so after getting his feet done or just from stomping flies sometimes. It's really just him being too smart or trying to get out of working. He's fine walking once we've trotted or cantered some and on trails he's fine too.


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

sirgalahadkem said:


> I actually just rode alone myself today. I just carry my cell phone with me. I'm diabetic so I had that tattooed on my arm just in case and I carry medical info in a wallet with a chain attached (so I don't lose it on the trail like I've done before)


After playing and jumping in the jump field some, I got my boyfriend and his friend to walk out on the trails with me. We just had some new ones cut and he didn't do so good on them the other day, but my boyfriend wanted to take them, so we went and Shamrock was awesome! He loved the trails, we even got to do some trotting. He's SO much better when we're not with other horses.. which is weird, since horses are herd animals. :?

I'll go out alone sometimes, but I make sure to either have my phone on me or tell my boyfriend I'm going and to watch out for Shamrock coming back without me on him or to come look for me if I'm gone too long. Shamrock has a tendency to stop if you fall off and come back to you, so it'd probably be like a life or death situation in his eyes for him to abandon me in the woods and run to the barn.


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## Shasta1981 (Nov 12, 2010)

sarahkgamble said:


> If it were pain, he'd be off in his trot. He's been like that before if ridden a day or so after getting his feet done or just from stomping flies sometimes. It's really just him being too smart or trying to get out of working. He's fine walking once we've trotted or cantered some and on trails he's fine too.


 

Not necessarily true, pain can come out in a number of ways. Drastic change in personality is one of them. I wouldn't totally cross of pain if he is already sensitive. I personally would rather rule out pain first with my vet, then start really getting on his case if he is in fact just not listening.


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## sarahkgamble (Nov 7, 2011)

Shasta1981 said:


> Not necessarily true, pain can come out in a number of ways. Drastic change in personality is one of them. I wouldn't totally cross of pain if he is already sensitive. I personally would rather rule out pain first with my vet, then start really getting on his case if he is in fact just not listening.


Thanks for the suggestion, but I know he's not in pain. He's showing no signs of it at all and his personality hasn't changed one bit. Walking forward was an issue we had to work through when I first got him and now the only time he does this is when we're in the jump field, which is where we've done most of our riding lately. Out on the trails and around the barn, he has no issues whatsoever (other than getting excited and spooking occasionally).


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