# Who is responsible? Hypothetical



## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Doesn't sound like it to me. Especially with this: Somehow the horse must've have been near the water, zapped herself, and slid her leg UNDER THE FENCE and cut herself.


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## amp23 (Jan 6, 2011)

Tin sitting around would not be the smartest thing to be in a pasture, and that would really bother me, but accidents happen. I would not think the BO would be responsible for an accident. Horses will find ways to get into things and get themselves hurt at some point, there's not a whole lot you can do to prevent that.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

Nope. The boarder accepted the condition of the pasture and still chose to turn the horse out there. There is also usually a clause in any boarding agreement saying something like "the boarder agrees that horses are large and destructive animals and will not hold the stable responsible for any injury or damage due to the size and destructiveness of the animal". Even if there is no boarding agreement, its a poopy thing for the boarder to do. The BO did not take a knife to the horse. If the boarder has an issue then s/he can ask for the pasture to be cleaned up. I have honestly seen horses injure themselves on basically everything, no matter how safe or well designed.


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## Speed Racer (Oct 21, 2009)

Crap happens and horses get hurt. We know that as owners going in. 

I wouldn't hold the BO responsible unless the piece of tin was laying out in the open in the pasture, which it wasn't.

If the horse zapped herself, slid under the fence, and cut herself on something _behind_ the water trough, that's hardly the BO's fault. That's just a weird, unhappy set of circumstances.


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## proequine (Jul 9, 2009)

Somehow the horse must've have been near the water, zapped herself, and slid her leg under the fence and cut herself

Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/horse-boarding/who-responsible-hypothetical-103487/#ixzz1dmyMJl4m

This part of the "hypothetical" is not clear and to me is the base of the question? 

Behind the water trough? Was the pile hidden from sight? Was the pile outside of the pasture? Was it a new pile? or had it been there? Had it been reported by boarders as a possible "safety hazard" to the BO? What does the contract say? 

There has to be a "known negligence." 
To my knowledge, you could not collect $ on not being able to ride your horse while on stall rest, unless the rider has a income from riding the horse.

Good barn owners are always on alert for possible hazards, but boarders should also keep a vigil eye. If the boarder knew the pile was there, failed to report it to the BO, the boarder apparently did not think it was a hazard. 

Hind-Sight is always a eye opener.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

I am not convinced there is an absolute in where the horse was hurt. It sounds as though the horse would have to be basically a contortionist to get BEHIND the water and UNDER the fence, I would rather doubt the tin was responsible.


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## Puddintat (Jul 24, 2010)

Well, the tin was the only thing they could find with blood on it. The horse that was injured happened to be the BO's horse.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Unfortunately pasture gremlins live every where. They are very sneaky and seldom captured.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

to many variables, It really depends on the legalities of the jurisdiction and the specific situation. 
If the pile was placed there after the horse owner inspected and was put in a place a reasonable person would or should have known was likely to cause injury and the BO knew about it and didnt act then he could be liable. Youd have to prove gross negligence most likely and still it's gonna depend on the local laws.
If it was a situation where noone in a million years would expect that injury to happen then the BO would not be held liable.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Puddintat said:


> Let's say a *boarder's* horse was brought in from the pasture for feeding time and she was found to be injured.





Puddintat said:


> Here is my question. Since this is a *boarding horse*, is the *BO in any way responsible* for the vet bill and loss of $$ to the owner since the horse is unrideable?


Bolding mine



Puddintat said:


> Well, the tin was the only thing they could find with blood on it. The horse that was injured happened to be the *BO's* horse.


So the BO's horse is injured on the BO's property and you are asking if the BO should pay their own vet bills and pay and loss of use money to themselves?

Or are you changing the story?


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## BCtazzie (Jun 7, 2011)

I think what the OP is asking is a hypothetical. Could have been worded better to stop confusion or maybe the title could have read better by others.

To me what is sounds like is "BO's horse cut leg baddly in field, has tendon injury, now needs stall rest etc etc etc. If this was a boarder's horse that was injured this way (from tin sheet within access to the horse within extreme reach of animal from fright etc etc) would the BO be required to pay vet fees etc etc due to hazard existing in field..." 

I agree with those saying that if this was a boarder and had seen this tin in the past not bringing it to BO attention to remove hazard then not all can be put onto the BO.

I think the reason why the word hypothetical is in the title of this thread, is because thats what it is.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

I'd be pretty peeved that a bunch of tin was laying just outside the fence line, but I don't think the BO could be held legally liable. Hope that it has now been cleared up and moved though.


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## caseymyhorserocks (Apr 5, 2010)

No, assuming the horse slid under the fence and the tin wasn't in the pasture, however the BO should be kindly asked to move the tin, just in case.


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## Puddintat (Jul 24, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Bolding mine
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry for the confusion. In this case, the injury happened to the BO horse. I was just curious how things would be handled if it happened to a boarder's horse. Just curious, that's all. If it were my horse I would pay the bills and not think twice but other people have voiced otherwise so I was just curious.


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## Joe4d (Sep 1, 2011)

depends too much on the specifics, and the local laws. Liability laws vary in different states and countries. SO many variables involved. The way the owner presents him self can make a difference as well.
I lease my back field for board. I present my self as knowing nothing about horse care or boarding. I tell a prospective tenant to inspect the property and see if it meets their approval because I have no idea what is good or bad.

Someone that presents themselves as a horse professional may take on greter responsibility. 
Negligence liability usually comes down to doing something that you knew or should have known not to do, that caused financial loss.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

I agree with the people that say it is not something you can expect to collect from the BO. The boarders know the tin is there, they have accepted the tin is there. It is not like the tin is a hidden danger.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

What if the boarders don't know the tin is there?


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

farmpony84 said:


> What if the boarders don't know the tin is there?


In this situation, the tin was outside the fence. If the fencing is reasonable, there would be no reason to even consider a horse would contact it.

There is NO reason for tin laying around in a turnout.


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## Puddintat (Jul 24, 2010)

AlexS said:


> I'd be pretty peeved that a bunch of tin was laying just outside the fence line, but I don't think the BO could be held legally liable. Hope that it has now been cleared up and moved though.



Yes it was and the property was thoroughly inspected for other hazards.


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## Puddintat (Jul 24, 2010)

Alwaysbehind said:


> I agree with the people that say it is not something you can expect to collect from the BO. The boarders know the tin is there, they have accepted the tin is there. It is not like the tin is a hidden danger.



True, but honestly know one even really (boarders anyway) noticed the tin until the accident. I guess it blended in with the water troughs. The troughs are old bathtubs.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

My answer is: It depends on your boarding contract. ALL of the ones we've encountered while barn shopping last year stated that the owner of the property WAS NOT liable for any injury or illness to the horse. PERIOD

Personally, this clause always caused me some discomfort as it implies that a barn owner could feed your fat horse sweet feed and if it founders, not be held responsible. OR that a barn owner could have barbed wire, or insufficient fencing or have tin magically appear in a pasture and if the horse escapes or gets hurt due to what is obviously negligence on the BO's part....they can't be held responsible.

Just never like the clause and how it absolves the BO should negligence or improper care result in death or injury of the horsee .....

An example of my dislike of the clause: a boarding facility in our area has serious issues. Firstly, they've had 6 horses die of colic in 2 years. I know colic happens, but that number vs. time ratio seems worrisome. Perhaps someone needs to reevaluate their feeding regimen or check those pastures for toxic trees or plants. 

Secondly, three times in the last few years (3) the horses have escaped the fencing and were found running out on a major highway. ....posing a danger to themselves and passing motorists. The last episode occured last year. A boarder who had just bought his horse, and from the same man we bought our OTTB from, had his horse get hit by a car and killed. 


Thirdly, horses are grouped together in volatile cicrumstances. In other words, horses are put out with other horses despite knowing that these groupings have serious aggression issues. One instance of said unwise turnout groupings resulted in a horse being viciously attacked by the alpha and a sidekick of his and the horse was run through a fence. The horse died.


Now, IMO, safe and reliable fencing is A MAJOR RESPONSIBILITY of the BO...but in this case, the fencing continues to be inadequate enough to allow the horses to escape and pose a danger to themselves and motorists travelling a major state highway which passes near their property. Horses are turned out with others despite the BO knowing there were issues...I know this because we used to go trail riding with her as she runs a trail riding business and she would always say to keep this horse from that one or they would fight....or kick, etc. AND having so many colic issues would have me doing some serious property checks for chemicals, toxic plants or trees, or reevaluating my feeding regimen.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

My first response was "yes, BO is responsible", but after reading through the responses and re-reading the OP I realized that the pile was *outside *the fence. Then I'd say no, it's one of those rare freakin accident that can always happen.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

True, but the real question is how close to the fence! Because if you store dangerous things OUTSIDE the fence but still within reach, isn't that still negligence?

Example: I would not store bags of fertilizer against the outside of the pasture fence. Because while OUTSIDE the fence, it is still within reach.


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## mls (Nov 28, 2006)

Beauseant said:


> True, but the real question is how close to the fence! Because if you store dangerous things OUTSIDE the fence but still within reach, isn't that still negligence?


I truly think there is more to the story than is being told. Tin OUTSIDE of the fence sliced up a leg that badly? Just does not compute!


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

mls said:


> I truly think there is more to the story than is being told. Tin OUTSIDE of the fence sliced up a leg that badly? Just does not compute!


I agree. That's why I thought at first it's in field somewhere. I'd like to see some pics of the setup (not to prove anyone is right/wrong, but to be aware for my own horses). In any case I hope horse will heal fast!


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

Beauseant said:


> My answer is: It depends on your boarding contract. ALL of the ones we've encountered while barn shopping last year stated that the owner of the property WAS NOT liable for any injury or illness to the horse. PERIOD
> 
> Personally, this clause always caused me some discomfort as it implies that a barn owner could feed your fat horse sweet feed and if it founders, not be held responsible. OR that a barn owner could have barbed wire, or insufficient fencing or have tin magically appear in a pasture and if the horse escapes or gets hurt due to what is obviously negligence on the BO's part....they can't be held responsible.
> 
> ...


This is where being a responsible horse owner comes in. The horse still belongs to you (general you), it is still your responsibility to inspect and approve the area that your horse will reside in.

If you are not happy with the conditions the horse will be living in, then don't let your horse live there!


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

Beausant, if someone is stupid enough to board at a facility as bad as you describe it is not the barn owner's fault if something happens.

The horse owner is responsible for the situation in which they put their horse.

You can not drop your horse at the cheapest place with crappy fencing and a nasty colic history and then scream foul when your horse gets injured on the crappy fencing or ends up with colic.



If a BO is held liable for every injury a horse causes itself then we will quickly run out of places to board our horses. 
That is why there is a clause about them not being responsible unless it is a case of gross negligence.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

HowClever said:


> This is where being a responsible horse owner comes in. The horse still belongs to you (general you), it is still your responsibility to inspect and approve the area that your horse will reside in.
> 
> If you are not happy with the conditions the horse will be living in, then don't let your horse live there!


 
Ummm....did you even READ my post? I didn't say I boarded there. I said


> a boarding facility in my area


.

I DID say that the owner has a trail riding business and that we used to go trail riding on the battlefield using her horses.

NEVER said I boarded there, dreamed of boarding there, considered boarding there, or consulted a psychic about boarding there.

Speaking for me PERSONALLY. As for the other people who DO board there, who knows why. But you must consider that they likely DO NOT know about the high colic rate nor the horse that was run through a fence. I am sure she doesn't advertise that. It's not like she's going to say "we've had six horses die of colic in two years, had one killed on the main highway after getting out of the fencing and had one run through a fence"... to her prospective boarders. Now would she?

We are all adults and realize that sometimes what people advertise and what they actually sell are two different things. And there is no way to know how many horses have died at that property unless you are a psychic. In the boarders' defense.

Luckily for me, I knew her personally through her trail riding business and witnessed some of the events and heard the others from her own mouth....and am part of a tightly knit horse community where things like this get aroound. others may not have this benefit.


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## HowClever (Feb 16, 2010)

Did you miss the part where I said "general you"?


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

No, that is why I said PERSONALLY speaking....then went on to try to surmise why people do board there. The only reasoning i could come up with is that they do not have the benefit of having known this woman for years and witnessed some incidents themselves and heard of the others from her own lips like I have....and have no way of knowing from visual inspections that horses are run through fences and have an alarming colic death rate. 

The fencing, however, should look substandard to them.....

The rest, they have no way of knowing.


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## kitten_Val (Apr 25, 2007)

_*Folks, it's time to calm down.*_

Beau, the place you described sounds very much like one barn in my area. Everyone knows about it and it's a shame on community. BUT there are LOTS of people boarding there still. Why? Because it's cheap, it's next to the big state park, and because the owner of the place is great at BSing people. How come the person (even total beginner) can't see that the place is cr*p and plain dangerous for the animal? Don't ask me. But fact is the fact - people board there FOR YEARS. 

Accidents happen, you can't go around it, and blaming the BO is not a way to go. But choosing a barn where BO takes his/her responsibilities seriously (and that includes not feeding sweet feed to the fat horse and explaining the owner why it's not a good idea) IS the horse owner responsibility. Also the unfortunate fact is some owners go bananas when BO tries to explain that feeding candy to the over-weight animal is bad (or, worse, gets insulting that horse is called "over-weight"), move the horse, and then BS about that particular barn all over the place. So it's a stick with 2 ends really.


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## Beauseant (Oct 22, 2010)

Kitten val, the funny thing about the place I described is that it isn't cheap. she's charging 375 a month and around these parts, that's high.

these people are paying alot to have their horses put at risk.... they just must not know .....otherwise NO ONE would pay so much to board there.....


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

I think its funny that I posted a question about BO liability a long time ago and had my *** handed to me, yet the responses and reasoning here are favorable towards the BO when the same answers would've applied to my situation. 

Anyway... I agree with the other posters. If a boarder places a horse in a shady situation then its the boarder's fault. If you board some place and a new situation arises and you don't saying and then something happens the BO still isn't liable. If there is a new situation and you approach the barn owner about it this is where there is a grey area and you may have a case. 

Horses hurt themselves on the dumbest things what really makes or breaks the situation is how it is handled afterwords. Hopefully the BO moved the metal shortly... if not she could definitely be liable if it happens again. The key word is "could" though. If that metal has been there for 20 years and it was the first injury and she didn't move it and it happens a second time, she still probably couldn't be held liable. Kind of like barbed wire... horses WILL injure themselves on it time and time again but the barn owner will probably never be held liable because its a generally accepted hazard.


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## AlexS (Aug 9, 2010)

starlinestables said:


> I think its funny that I posted a question about BO liability a long time ago and had my *** handed to me, yet the responses and reasoning here are favorable towards the BO when the same answers would've applied to my situation.


I don't recall that post, but I think in general people form opinions based on many posts that people make. I'd rethink what I publically share if I were you, but many have said that to you before.


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## farmpony84 (Apr 21, 2008)

Alwaysbehind said:


> Beausant, if someone is stupid enough to board at a facility as bad as you describe it is not the barn owner's fault if something happens.
> 
> The horse owner is responsible for the situation in which they put their horse.
> 
> ...


That was a pretty "mean" statement especially since most new horse owners are encouraged to board at a facility before bringing horses home so that they can learn the how's and why's when caring for a horse. Not all people are born with horse sence and many people don't know much aboug proper care or nutrition. I would choose a word more like ignorant rather then stupid.


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## verona1016 (Jul 3, 2011)

Beauseant said:


> My answer is: It depends on your boarding contract. ALL of the ones we've encountered while barn shopping last year stated that the owner of the property WAS NOT liable for any injury or illness to the horse. PERIOD.


While I agree with the general consensus that the BO wouldn't be help liable for debris OUTSIDE the pasture area which no reasonable person would consider a danger (except in hindsight), I'd also like to point out that boarding contracts can't save a BO from negligence.

If this same case were tweaked just a little to say that either a boarder had pointed out the hazardous pile and asked for it to be removed OR the pile was new and a person could reasonably expect that it could be a danger then the BO could be held liable, no matter what the contract said about the owner of the property being held liable. That's why anyone running a boarding facility should have (and is required in some places) to carry liability insurance no matter what forms people are required to sign.

At least in the US, there are many, many precedents that you cannot sign away your right to sue.


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## Alwaysbehind (Jul 10, 2009)

farmpony84 said:


> That was a pretty "mean" statement especially since most new horse owners are encouraged to board at a facility before bringing horses home so that they can learn the how's and why's when caring for a horse. Not all people are born with horse sence and many people don't know much aboug proper care or nutrition. I would choose a word more like ignorant rather then stupid.


Mean?

Wow.... it is fair to be judgmental about my post but it is not fair to be judgmental about people who refuse to open their eyes?

Even a novice can look at crappy dangerous fencing and know it is crappy dangerous fencing. 
It does not take a long time horse knowledge to know bad fencing when you see it.

ETA - I do think it is stupid to buy any living creature (pet) and not do any research before you buy. If you have not done enough research to know about safe fencing and a reasonable feed program (not the latest and greatest but the basics) then there is a problem.

ETA2 - And FP, maybe you did not notice but I am responding to what Beaus posted specifically.


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## Puddintat (Jul 24, 2010)

mls said:


> I truly think there is more to the story than is being told. Tin OUTSIDE of the fence sliced up a leg that badly? Just does not compute!


That's what I was told. I was out the night that the mare was cut pretty badly but we couldn't find what happened. The next day when I came out to the barn that's what they said had happened. I found it to be strange, too. They said there were 3 hoof prints and a slide mark. I'm guessing she was by the trough and maybe one of the other mares came by and had a a scuffle with her and she slid her leg under the fence? They said the tin had blood on it and it was promptly moved.

I'm really not trying to cause problems, honest. I'm just curious about certain situations as this is my first time boarding a horse. :???:


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Did the injury actually happen?


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Sorry ^ I guess it did.

Will the horse be okay?


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## Puddintat (Jul 24, 2010)

Ray MacDonald said:


> Did the injury actually happen?



Yes, it did happen. The BO's horse was injured. I was just curious what would have been the case if it was a boarder's horse, hence the hypothetical. I honestly didn't think everything would get so heated.

She should be ok. She severed her extensor tendon, if I got that right, so its going to take lots of recovery time. She is on stall rest right now. The vet had said originally she could have time in the round pen but she started running and bucking around so now she's stuck in the stall. My mom was leasing her but now she'll lease another horse.


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## starlinestables (Nov 24, 2008)

AlexS said:


> I don't recall that post, but I think in general people form opinions based on many posts that people make. I'd rethink what I publically share if I were you, but many have said that to you before.


This was a couple years ago before my "reputation" for being the evil barn owner.:wink:

It was a about a horse who went under a fence into another pasture and fought with another horse.


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## Ray MacDonald (Dec 27, 2009)

Puddintat said:


> Yes, it did happen. The BO's horse was injured. I was just curious what would have been the case if it was a boarder's horse, hence the hypothetical. I honestly didn't think everything would get so heated.
> 
> She should be ok. She severed her extensor tendon, if I got that right, so its going to take lots of recovery time. She is on stall rest right now. The vet had said originally she could have time in the round pen but she started running and bucking around so now she's stuck in the stall. My mom was leasing her but now she'll lease another horse.


Yeah, sometimes threads get heated quickly over very little 

Well it's good to hear that she is going to be okay, will she still be ridable?


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## Puddintat (Jul 24, 2010)

Ray MacDonald said:


> Yeah, sometimes threads get heated quickly over very little
> 
> Well it's good to hear that she is going to be okay, will she still be ridable?



I'm not sure when and if she will be rideable. My mom was thinking about leasing a different horse anyway because of some behavior issues that she is not able to fix on her own. The bad thing is that she started dressage this year and was doing so well at it so its kind of sad that she might not be able to show anymore.


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## twh (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm having a bit of trouble playing this out in my mind. The tin was behind the trough, but suddenly the tin is outside the paddock. Does the trough border the fence and in saying the tin was behind the trough you mean it was on the other side of the fence?

IMO, if there is something hazardous to a horse within the boundaries of the pasture, and the BO has been alerted to it but chooses to leave it there and a boarder's horse is injured, then the BO must accept full responsibility. 

If the hazardous thing is outside the pasture and a horse somehow gets into it, then I wouldn't count on being able to hold the BO legally liable. Frankly, I wouldn't board at a place that left junk lying around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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