# Lesson programs lowering standards



## littrella (Aug 28, 2010)

That's the way my son is being started. He's 2 months in & his last 2 lessons he has been allowed off the line for the last half of his lesson. I told our trainer that I think that I need to go back & do that to develop better balance


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

It makes me so happy when I hear there are other coaches out there.

I actually have been bugging my coach to put me on the lunge line so I can work on some skills that I have lost. I need to work on getting my shoulders back more. I also seem to be very locked in my hips lately so I need to work on that. And nothing is better then having time to focus on yourself and not worry about the horse. I think the lunge line is one of the best tools a coach can have.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The lady who trained two of our horses and who taught my daughter for a couple of years was very straightforward about it - she would teach horse or rider whatever they could learn, but she couldn't control what that pace would be. She wanted to know what a student's goal was, or the goal for a horse, and then she would try to get them as far toward that goal as she could in the time she had.

She currently has a waiting list using that approach, both for working horses and working with riders. She did try one of those 'trainer challenges' with an unbroke horse a year ago. Apart from swearing she would never do it again, she then kept the horse for an extra 6 weeks at her own expense because she felt the horse needed it.

That attitude seems to work fine for her as a businesswoman, as well as a trainer. Good word-of-mouth counts for a lot.


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## AndersonEquestrian (Sep 25, 2012)

I am actually about to start doing "no reins" with about 5 of the kids I teach. They balance on their pony's mouths and then wonder why they have ****y ponies...

You're not alone!!


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## BCtazzie (Jun 7, 2011)

AndersonEquestrian said:


> I am actually about to start doing "no reins" with about 5 of the kids I teach. They balance on their pony's mouths and then wonder why they have ****y ponies...
> 
> You're not alone!!


I also have students on the lunge. 3 of which started with a different instructor and balance on the horses mouth, with one who stops by raising hands to the head. Bad habits are hard to break. 

they keep me in a job.


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## ponyboy (Jul 24, 2008)

NBEventer said:


> I have recently decided I am going to offer and parent who approaches me about not seeing quick results a free lesson. So they can feel what we are trying to teach.



I think that's a great idea. I also think this kind of thing is happening in every activity for children. Parents seem to be enrolling their kids in activities for the wrong reasons.


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## Sharpie (May 24, 2009)

I think that is a great way to deal with it! I wish I could have more lessons on a lunge line with a school master. Unfortunately not an option for me right now, but I happily fork over a pretty hefty lesson fee to do so with my old instructor whenever I am back visiting. He spends most of the time trying to help show me the bad habits I've developed rather than making 'progress' since I'm there so rarely, but even that is well worth it for me.


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## TheLauren (Aug 26, 2012)

As a student I would agree with you. I started lessons at a stable 4 years ago. My instructor was nice, but it was like she was just putting me through motions. I was 24 then, and I feel she was also teaching me less effectively because I never had any intentions of showing. Regardless, I want to be a good, balanced, knowledgeable rider. 

I ended up leaving that stable after a bad fall. I took two years off but I just recently started lessons again. I went to a different stable, and I am with a wonderful instructor. She is working with me, and is pushing me to be the best I can. 

It can be easy to put a rider on a horse and yell generic commands. And I'm sure that works with most riders. But a good instructor studies the student and tailors the lesson to them. I am paying a lot more for my current lessons, but I am also getting much more out of it.


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## LynnF (Jun 1, 2011)

I agree! I have a friend that up until a year ago had never ridden a horse at all, I taught her a few basics and she was hooked. She started taking lessons in a barn that guaranteed her that she would be able to teach beginner riding lessons in 4 months. I don't understand how somebody that has been riding less than a year figures that they can teach beginner riding lessons but she does it! I don't agree with this at all!


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

oh Lynn that scares me so much. This is why I love the programs Equine Canada has started like the Instructor Of Beginners and Competition Coach. Then there is the trusty Pony Club(where I got my levels). These prograns require you to go through testing. So you have to have a strong education about the sport. Hearing about beginners teaching beginners is scary. Very very scary.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

So it arrived here....I lived in Italy for eight years. Big equestrian center, standardbreds and jumpers, ponies for the little kids. Longeline was used to tire the horse. NO beginner was ever on the longe, even 3year old kids would do a max of 5 lessons and jump. If they fell off, it was the bad pony/horse. 
Kids and adults could not ride without stirrups after two years of lessons, few of them could properly post, they had no clue about a half halt, proper leg aids, but they sure wore spurs. 
I asked several instructors why they wouldn't teach properly. Answer was, the parents want to see quick results, want the kid jumping, and would ask about buying a horse faster, which the instructor by coincidence have in his barn. 
It was sickening. A resisting horse was met with harsher bits and a whip, until it complied or threw the rider, then it would go to the dealer and a new one was coming. 
One if the instructors said, proper training wasn't necessary, his folks could all ride. I asked him if he was aware that he was teaching the future, and if he had noticed that the Italian Olympic team was pretty sorry, last time I checked.........


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## horselessmom (Apr 20, 2012)

LynnF said:


> I agree! I have a friend that up until a year ago had never ridden a horse at all, I taught her a few basics and she was hooked. She started taking lessons in a barn that guaranteed her that she would be able to teach beginner riding lessons in 4 months. I don't understand how somebody that has been riding less than a year figures that they can teach beginner riding lessons but she does it! I don't agree with this at all!


That's scary. Who are her clients, though? I can't imagine hiring such an instructor.


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## LynnF (Jun 1, 2011)

Her clients are unfortunately uneducated people who want cheaper lessons and don't know enough to realize she can hardly ride herself. I am afraid for her students and am just waiting for somebody to get hurt. Maybe that will clue her in to the fact that she doesn't know what she is doing. 
The other day she asked me for help because her horse wouldn't stand for her to mount. I asked her what she was going to do if her students had problems with a horse not listening... Her answer.. send them to a trainer that deals with that... I was shocked... I have pretty much refused to be involved with anything to do with her and horses from now on.


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## AndersonEquestrian (Sep 25, 2012)

I know I am not SUPER advanced or even professional but I know enough to teach kids and the very basics. I found that it improved my riding to reteach the stuff I learned. Not saying EVERYONE should do that but I also don't set my clients and students up for failure with their horses and make sure they are solid on the ground before ever climbing up there...


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

The IOB(instructor of beginners) program Equine Canada has does not require you to be a pro and riding at high levels. Many people have done it that have no desire to ride at an advance level. But it requires you to have a strong education on theory and basics. I love the program. You can keep your amateur status with it as well. My friend has her IOB and she doesnt jump, doesnt show and would never be caught riding anything but the quietest horse in the barn. But she has been taught how to teach skills and safety. When she has taken her students as far as she can she hands them to the more advance coaches. It really is a wonderful program.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## minstrel (Mar 20, 2012)

I don't use the lunge line for lessons, but what I do is have kids on the lead rein. We're lucky in that the older students love to help, so will lead the younger kids while they learn the basics, and it means you can have multiple kids in a lesson, which they enjoy, and it isn't quite as demanding on their concentration as a private lunge lesson. They stay on the lead rein until they have learned how to do rising and sitting trot, hold jumping position over trotting poles, and to do basic halt to walk, walk to trot, trot to walk and walk to halt transitions. They even start to learn to steer with a leader walking beside them, ready to help if need be. I do nothing above a three inch cross rail until they are steering on their own, and our nice fit ponies trot over those, they don't actually jump (but the kids like to think that it's jumping!)


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## 1Coolmare (Dec 1, 2012)

I am new to the forum. Not too savvy re: responding in the right place so if I am messing up this thread, sorry. Someone help me. Bu I want to say that I am a certified instructor and agree. I serve as a guest instructor for other barns and work solo as well. It has been my esxperience that those instructors who make the most money are the same ones who do not seem to care about teaching horsemanship or wholistically. People pay to spend an hour in the saddle and do not pay if your approach involves too much "learning." I believe riding starts out of the saddle. I can't seem to find any students who want to have any part of that. Groundwork, horse anatomy, physiology or psychology or steps to understanding the real relationship that can be developed between human and animal is not easily found in my neck of the woods. I am seriously considering stopping instructing altogether and focusing on my own mares. Life would be happier for me. 
Coolmare


NBEventer said:


> Another thread has inspired me to start this one.
> 
> I recently attended a coaching seminar and the hot topic was the fact that coaches and instructors have lowered their standards of teaching and riding is turning more "mass production" vs "quality riding"
> 
> ...


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A lot depends on the student's goals. Not everyone wants to train to jump 6' oxers.

When my DIL started, she had 6 lessons at a nearby stable. At the end of the first hour in a round pen, she was doing an OK job at sitting the trot. After the first 2 lessons, she began riding our level-headed Appy gelding. She rode him maybe 3-4 times a week for about 6 months before trying cantering. About that time, she started going out on trail rides.

She knows her limitations. She wouldn't consider riding my dominant mare. They now live about 20 miles away, and she makes it over to ride about 1/month, so she wants to only walk or trot on a trail, or canter with supervision in our small arena. She makes no claim of being an experienced rider, and has no desire to push the envelope. She knows her limits and tries to stay in them, both in what horse she rides and what she does while riding. She mostly rides little Cowboy now. He gets nervous in an arena, but is a happy little horse out on the trail with the 'big horses'.

And there is nothing wrong with that. And I know a number of riders who are content like that - their goal in riding is to ride a relaxed, calm horse at a walk or trot around the neighborhood or in the desert. For a lot of people, riding is a fun hobby, not an overriding passion.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I don't care if my students don't want to go to the Olympics. I have plenty of students who just enjoy their once or twice a week lessons and hang out at the barn. I have lots of students with no desire to even look at a jump or ride a spunky horse.

But I think its very dangerous and irresponsible to let someone head out and bounce around yanking on the horses mouth, letting the horse run hallowed out(causing back issues in many horses) and thumping on the horses back. I also think if you want to ride you should have solid foundations. This isn't like taking up dance lessons or tennis. You NEED to have the basic skills at a solid level before riding unsupervised or doing anything more then a walk. You are dealing with a thousand pound animal that has a mind of its own. You need to be educated.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

_"I think its very dangerous and irresponsible to let someone head out and bounce around yanking on the horses mouth, letting the horse run hallowed out(causing back issues in many horses) and thumping on the horses back."_​That doesn't take many lessons to learn. Quiet hands at a walk and jog, and not "thumping" the horse's back at a walk and jog doesn't take a lot of training to achieve. It certainly doesn't require a lot of ground training or hours on a lunge line.

Also, a western saddle distributes weight over a greater area (almost twice as much). So my 100 lb DIL in a western saddle is NOT putting much pressure on the horse's back. Ever. Add in a horse who neck reins, and who has never bolted in 4 years, and I don't feel dangerous or irresponsible. Also note that she spent 6 months riding, and cantered in the arena before heading out.

Hope this doesn't shock anyone, but a lot of folks learn to ride without ever taking a lesson. They just get on a good horse, and the horse helps them figure it out. Although I didn't take up riding until I was 50, I did ride a few times in my teens and early 20s, usually visiting a ranch. No lessons, just get on a good horse and ride.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> _"I think its very dangerous and irresponsible to let someone head out and bounce around yanking on the horses mouth, letting the horse run hallowed out(causing back issues in many horses) and thumping on the horses back."_​That doesn't take many lessons to learn. Quiet hands at a walk and jog, and not "thumping" the horse's back at a walk and jog doesn't take a lot of training to achieve. It certainly doesn't require a lot of ground training or hours on a lunge line.
> 
> Also, a western saddle distributes weight over a greater area (almost twice as much). So my 100 lb DIL in a western saddle is NOT putting much pressure on the horse's back. Ever. Add in a horse who neck reins, and who has never bolted in 4 years, and I don't feel dangerous or irresponsible. Also note that she spent 6 months riding, and cantered in the arena before heading out.
> 
> Hope this doesn't shock anyone, but a lot of folks learn to ride without ever taking a lesson. They just get on a good horse, and the horse helps them figure it out. Although I didn't take up riding until I was 50, I did ride a few times in my teens and early 20s, usually visiting a ranch. No lessons, just get on a good horse and ride.


I have to say. You have a hard time looking past your own arrogance to ever believe anyone other then yourself could be right on anything when it comes to lessons and PROPER riding and training.

I come from the school of thought that a responsible rider is a rider who wants to learn and is open to opinions of others. You don't need to be out taking lessons weekly to be a safe rider. But you do need foundations. Its the same line as building a house without a foundation, it will fall because its missing the key elements.

Don't like that assessment, then lets go with driving a car. You cant throw a new driver in the middle of the city at rush hour and expect them to get you home safe.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

_"You have a hard time looking past your own arrogance to ever believe anyone other then yourself could be right on anything when it comes to lessons and PROPER riding and training."_​Pot, Kettle. Except I haven't made it personal.

I wouldn't throw a new driver in the middle of a city, nor expect a new rider to jump a 4' fence. But I would let a new driver drive in low pressure situations, and in fact HAVE to do that when teaching my kids to drive. Their first drive wasn't an LA freeway, but I didn't require them to study auto mechanics and sit for hours in the drivers seat before starting an engine.

There is more than one way to ride, and more than one way to learn. As an instructor, you are of course welcome to use any standard you wish.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> _"You have a hard time looking past your own arrogance to ever believe anyone other then yourself could be right on anything when it comes to lessons and PROPER riding and training."_​Pot, Kettle. Except I haven't made it personal.
> 
> I wouldn't throw a new driver in the middle of a city, nor expect a new rider to jump a 4' fence. But I would let a new driver drive in low pressure situations, and in fact HAVE to do that when teaching my kids to drive. Their first drive wasn't an LA freeway, but I didn't require them to study auto mechanics and sit for hours in the drivers seat before starting an engine.
> 
> There is more than one way to ride, and more than one way to learn. As an instructor, you are of course welcome to use any standard you wish.


I have not made it personal. I have however made it a point to educate as many as I can on the importance of proper riding. By proper riding I mean not riding with your legs pitched out in front of you, making sure you know just the right amount of pressure on a horses mouth, helping a horse carry itself the way it should while under saddle to help prevent soreness. 

Also when learning to drive, you need to learn the rules of the road and safe driving, as well as defensive driving. You can't learn those things without proper instruction.

I _coach_ my students. I teach them safety, I teach them health and first aid, I teach them proper tack fit and proper tack adjustments. I teach them these things because it is how you stay safe. Not understanding proper tack fit can lead to a sore animal which can lead to a dangerous situation. 

My students learn that knowing how to balance themselves and have proper position helps their horse move correctly. Which leads to happy and safe animals and students. 

If as a rider you can not know or understand these things then you can get yourself into a dangerous situation.

Example: Student is turning her horse back out in the paddock, she swung the gate open and walked through with the horse. Gate swung shut hitting horse in the flank, causing a huge gash, which lead to a panicked horse, which lead to a panicked humane. Panicked horse stirs up the herd and horses get loose. What happens? Horse tramples humane, humane breaks ribs and fractures skull, horse was a mess needing stitches. Loose horses thankfully only went to the barn, however they managed to spook the horses in the arena which caused a kid to fall off and break her arm.

The above is a true story. Which could have all been avoided. How did it all come to be?

Student was not taught the basics such as how to lead a horse into the paddock, how to turn horse to the gate and close gate before taking halter off. Also wasn't taught to check something as simple as a gate when turning a horse out to make sure there was nothing that could cause injury. Student was not taught how to handle a horse that gets spooked.

Something so simple. All this comes from instructors and coaches not teaching proper basics.

As for kid in the arena that broke her arm? That also could have been avoided had the instructor taught the kid how to handle her horse when the horse spooks. 

My students lean how to lead their horses, how to brush and tack up, taught how to untack, taught how to turn a horse out safely and taught to check the gate and fence area to make sure there is nothing for them to get hurt on(yes I know I am a bit extreme in having students check gates and fences but I believe it is important).

I also teach my students to try and keep their head on should their horse spook. Accidents do happen and even the best of riders can lose their head when freak accidents happen. But learning how to control a simple spook is important as even the most quiet of horses can lose their head once and awhile.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"By proper riding I mean not riding with your legs pitched out in front of you..."









"_Dave Carter, old time Spur cowpuncher, riding "Butterbean" while the herd of the last roundup on the old Espuela (Spur) Land and Cattle Company stop at a watering place. SMS Ranch, Texas._, 1910"

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide










Again, there is more than one way to ride. You are of course welcome to teach whatever way you think is best."_Once the student could successfully do rising trot with no reins(for more advance students no stirrups) and can do downwards transitions with no reins, they can come off the lunge line._"​Again fine. Other instructors taking a different approach doesn't make them horrible instructors or money-grubbing shysters. And many people on HF were self-taught. I honestly have never met a rancher who taught his kids to ride on a lunge line, although a lot of them can ride darn well. I'm unorthodox, but the only time I've come off a horse was when she bolted in mid-dismount. 

As an instructor, you can demand any standard you wish. You are welcome to explain WHY you hold those standards to any prospective students and their parents. I will say that a lot of parents or prospective students in the west at least may consider that more time and money than they care to invest for their goals.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

You are posting pictures of WESTERN riding, cattle cutting etc... these things require different positioning.

In an ENGLISH saddle you want your leg back and under you, or you are not balanced properly. When you are in an english saddle with your legs pitched in front of you, you are off balance, throwing your horse off balance and more then likely to come flying off.

Regarding self taught on a ranch. A completely different ball game.


And my friend who is a certified level 2 western COACH(big difference between coach and instructor) will even say that a lot of the self taught off the ranch riders she gets as clients are in fact great riders and usually only need a few things tweaked and that depends on the path they chose to take in western riding.

As for self taught english, many self taught english riders who have not had much for coaching do have a bit of a gap and have picked up dangerous bad habits. I didn't say all, I said many.

I stand behind the coaching programs. They were developed for a reason and have proven successful for a reason.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide


Also please note. This first picture? Its older then I care to even think. Standards have changed since there. In a huge way. 

Second picture? That is not a leg pitched out in front of someone. I actually see a decently well balanced rider helping his horse maneuver. I do not see a leg pitched out.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Show Jumping in 1910











Show Jumping 2010










Funny how things change eh?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I have been asking for a while for my trainer to put me back on the lunge, riding my own horses I have to both school them, and develop me at the same time. I would love to have some lessons where I can just concentrate on re establishing my basics, so painfully learned back in the old days when everyone expected to learn new things, not just be able to do them straight off.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I believe most riders benefit greatly from some formal training. I've taken lessons in the past, and hope to do so again. I would encourage just about anyone to take lessons if the opportunity presents itself.

Not all lessons programs will be identical, but I would be careful of saying one is 'higher', or that others have 'lower' standards because that is the only way to bring in students and cash. The lady who gave my daughter-in-law her first lessons thought it better to teach someone 6-8 lessons of basics than to have them simply teach themselves. She couldn't control how far someone would get in 6 lessons, but she would teach them what she could in that time. I think she took a reasonable approach. I think my approach was also reasonable, since my DIL spent a lot of hours doing walks, trots, disengages, and finally cantering before riding out of an arena, and has never ridden solo out of an arena.

I guess I don't like the "higher/lower" terminology. Stricter and looser takes out the value judgment, and allows someone to tell a prospective student, "I'm pretty strict, but I do so because I care about your safety!" It is up to an adult student, or a parent, to determine what is then an acceptable level of risk, since all riding involves some risk. Just IMHO.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Golden Horse said:


> I have been asking for a while for my trainer to put me back on the lunge, riding my own horses I have to both school them, and develop me at the same time. I would love to have some lessons where I can just concentrate on re establishing my basics, so painfully learned back in the old days when everyone expected to learn new things, not just be able to do them straight off.


I don't think I could ever stress enough how important of a tool the lunge line is for any coach or instructor. 

In order to pass any of your coaching levels or instructor certification you have to be able to lunge students and explain how to safely and properly lunge as well as explain its importance.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

NBEventer, I suggest if you want to renew the debate from the previous thread you mentioned in your first post about riding position, that you start another thread and we can debate there. For the purposes of this one, I'll point out that there isn't a "proper" approach, which is why folks with different goals use different styles. Horses for courses, so to speak. English is NOT the only way to ride...and English riding has two very different seats!


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> I believe most riders benefit greatly from some formal training. I've taken lessons in the past, and hope to do so again. I would encourage just about anyone to take lessons if the opportunity presents itself.
> 
> Not all lessons programs will be identical, but I would be careful of saying one is 'higher', or that others have 'lower' standards because that is the only way to bring in students and cash. T*he lady who gave my daughter-in-law her first lessons thought it better to teach someone 6-8 lessons of basics than to have them simply teach themselves.* She couldn't control how far someone would get in 6 lessons, but she would teach them what she could in that time. I think she took a reasonable approach. I think my approach was also reasonable, since my DIL spent a lot of hours doing walks, trots, disengages, and finally cantering before riding out of an arena, and has never ridden solo out of an arena.
> 
> I guess I don't like the "higher/lower" terminology. Stricter and looser takes out the value judgment, and allows someone to tell a prospective student, "I'm pretty strict, but I do so because I care about your safety!" It is up to an adult student, or a parent, to determine what is then an acceptable level of risk, since all riding involves some risk. Just IMHO.


Okay is this NOT been what I have been saying the whole time? Yes my students are on the lunge line until they understand the basics and have developed a good seat. Which is... wait for it... Teaching them basics so they are not teaching themselves! 

By lowering standards I am saying that many programs out there have lowered their standards and stopped teaching them safety and the importance of understanding positional elements, tack, ground work and basic theory. 

By lowering standards I am saying that they have stopped the basics and just throw the student on a horse and have them out galloping around a course of jumpers within two weeks.

Seriously I am beginning to believe you just enjoy reading your own words. You strike me as the kind of person who talks to hear himself speak. I still do not get why you are even on here. You dismiss the opinion of anyone but yourself. You seek out threads about training and showing and having standards in programs to argue against them. 

At this point I am done arguing with you.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> NBEventer, I suggest if you want to renew the debate from the previous thread you mentioned in your first post about riding position, that you start another thread and we can debate there.* For the purposes of this one, I'll point out that there isn't a "proper" approach, which is why folks with different goals use different styles.* Horses for courses, so to speak. English is NOT the only way to ride...and English riding has two very different seats!


There is a proper approach. Which is why coaching and instructor programs were developed. I would never put my kid in lessons with someone who is not certified or being mentored by someone that is a certified mentor. 

The proper approach is making sure the student can safely tackle the basics before advancing them.

The proper approach is not encouraging dangerous or improper habits. The proper approach is helping the student fix those dangerous and wrong habits. 

Pretty darn simple.

In regards to more riding styles. Yep there is. I have ridden and shown Western pleasure, trail, barrels, exercise rider at the track, had my Q license in harness racing, ridden eventers, jumpers, hunters and omg wait for it... _DRESSAGE_ :shock:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> ...Seriously I am beginning to believe you just enjoy reading your own words. You strike me as the kind of person who talks to hear himself speak. I still do not get why you are even on here. You dismiss the opinion of anyone but yourself. You seek out threads about training and showing and having standards in programs to argue against them.
> 
> At this point I am done arguing with you.


Glad to hear you aren't making it personal...:evil:

Please don't take offense if I don't send you a Christmas card this year.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

bsms said:


> _"I think its very dangerous and irresponsible to let someone head out and bounce around yanking on the horses mouth, letting the horse run hallowed out(causing back issues in many horses) and thumping on the horses back."_​That doesn't take many lessons to learn. Quiet hands at a walk and jog, and not "thumping" the horse's back at a walk and jog doesn't take a lot of training to achieve. It certainly doesn't require a lot of ground training or hours on a lunge line.
> 
> Also, a western saddle distributes weight over a greater area (almost twice as much). So my 100 lb DIL in a western saddle is NOT putting much pressure on the horse's back. Ever. Add in a horse who neck reins, and who has never bolted in 4 years, and I don't feel dangerous or irresponsible. Also note that she spent 6 months riding, and cantered in the arena before heading out.
> 
> Hope this doesn't shock anyone, but a lot of folks learn to ride without ever taking a lesson. They just get on a good horse, and the horse helps them figure it out. Although I didn't take up riding until I was 50, I did ride a few times in my teens and early 20s, usually visiting a ranch. No lessons, just get on a good horse and ride.


Again BSMS, I am convinced that your arguments come from hours of research on the internet, not actual experience. Believe me when I say my intention is not at all to be offensive, but you're arguing with a certified instructor who has taught many students. I understand you do ride, but until you have gone through training to teach, this forum may be more conducive to learning if only experienced teachers/coaches/instructors comment on a thread concerning teaching methods. 

I personally teach western riding lessons, and I will say that lunge work is an incredibly helpful tool for students. It is much easier for the horse and saves him from the new student yanking on his mouth while the student is figuring out their balance. It is easier on the student to not have to worry about controlling the horses direction and speed. It helps so much more than allowing a complete beginner to learn how to ride by "just getting on a good horse"

The entire point of 'riding properly' is to make it *easier on the horse!* We have found new ways of riding that make it more comfortable for the horse, and for the rider as a secondary bonus. Why reinvent the wheel when you can utilize the combined knowledge of generations? 

Kids on ranches are such good riders at a young age because they grow up around horses. They _are_ taking lessons. They are learning about horse behavior from a very young age. They are watching their parents, they have infinitely more exposure to horses than your average student who comes in for lessons, who's only experience with horses was probably watching Flicka and going on a trail ride once on a family vacation. By no fault of their own, they have no idea why that horse is pinning it's ears, what to do in a spook situation, or even the importance of good grooming.

Contrary to your argument, your 100lb daughter in a western saddle CAN cause considerable discomfort to a horse. In my years of teaching, I have seen smaller students cause discomfort to horses when they don't yet know how to move with the horse. Only a a trained eye can recognize the subtle signs the horse is giving to indicate this. Furthermore, this discomfort isn't as big of a deal for a horse ridden once a month as it is for a horse ridden daily for multiple lessons a day. We need to be on top of our game to constantly read the horses for any signs they give us, and to take measures to make things as comfortable as possible for the horse. 

Position is another area that I believe is important. Again, it is easier on the horse if you are positioned over the center of gravity on the horse, which means your legs are not thrown forward. English or western does not matter. Having that center line from head to hip to heel keeps your weight in the easiest place for the horse to carry you. If your position is consistent, it is easier for your horse to identify a cue. If your position is constantly moving around, it's harder for your horse to tell the difference between an unintentional leg bump and a cue.

Heres an image from the Certified Horsemanship Associations Composite Manual showing western position. 










Very sorry for the size of the picture, could not get it to resize.

Again BSMS, I'm not trying, at all, to put you down. I'm open to a civil discussion, but please, please be sure that what you are posting is constructive and correct. There is more than one way to ride a horse, but I think it's wise to strive for methods that make it easiest for the horse.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I have been positive, and also given REASONS for what I've written. And contrary to what you post, it is based on experience and NOT Internet reading. If I was relying on Internet reading, I would agree with you. But I have experimented - something very few riders ever do. And I have made use of manuals written before arena riding took over as the primary teaching style.

Western position varies with what you are doing. The picture you showed is used in Western Pleasure, but not in very many other western options. Why? Because it isn't ideal for all western riding. Riding outside the arena, and away from judges, isn't the same as riding a slow, highly trained horse in an enclosed area.

Before you pat yourself on the back for 'advancing' beyond how folks rode for 2000 years - and the western style of riding is largely the way people have ridden for 2000+ years - you might consider that people rode for purpose for 2000+ years, not for show. And you might consider that they rode when an injury could easily kill you, hundreds of miles from the nearest medical help.

Y'all are posting in the arrogance of our age, that believes people wallowed in ignorance and stupidity for thousands of years, and only NOW do we know anything worthwhile. But lets review a bit of history:

This image comes from 440 BC, almost 2500 years ago:










If you look at someone riding bareback, you will see much the same now. Why? Because that is a natural way for a human body to match the horse's body.

This postage stamp is based on a painting from around 600 AD in China:










Looks a heck of a lot like a forward seat, doesn't it? 1300 years before Caprilli? How could that be?

This is from a Chinese tomb around 600 AD. Notice the stirrup placement, and ask yourself how someone riding in THAT saddle would have to ride:










This was from 900 AD France:










Apart from not using stirrups, the position would be familiar to the cowboy picture:










Here is an illustration from École de Cavalerie in 1729:










Look familiar? It ought to. Put some chaps on that fellow, and he'd look just like a cowboy!

When Littauer wrote my tagline: *"...there are only two criteria of your position; a) are you in fluid balance and rhythm with your horse or not? b) does your seat enable you to control your horse efficiently?"*, he was being very practical. And the dressage seat, while admirably suited for riding a horse with lots of bounce (impulsion and suspension if you prefer), is slightly different from the traditional seat used for thousands of year because it is better suited for moving with a horse doing collected gaits, and controlling that horse thru use of leg and spurs. It is not in any way a WRONG seat, but it is a specialized one.

Yes, I have ridden it. And then ridden the traditional seat of the last 2000 years, which happens to be much like the cowboys of 1900. Then back. It is easy to switch between them and see how it affects balance, movement and your horse. I actually use BOTH almost every time I ride, as well as a forward seat - because as the horse does different things, I ought to adjust to stay in synch with my horse.

Why might moving your feet ahead a bit help?

1 - It makes it easier to sit a trot. Your hips need to move with the horse, and that is easier if your feet are a little in front so your hips can move forward. It is very hard to follow the horse's motion if you are straight up and down, because your spine cannot compress. It can only go forward or back with the hips, and that is easier when your motion has somewhere to go. The slight angle in the body with the feet forward allows the hips to move while the feet and shoulders stay still. Watch Craig Cameron:






You see, I'm NOT the only one who doesn't obey a 'shoulder-hip-heel' straight line.

2 - It helps when your horse does the "OMG Crouch". I realize a highly trained horse may never do those. My horse does, and I'm hardly alone. Think of standing in a bus, and the bus is about to come to a sharp stop. Do you maintain 'shoulder-hip-heel' alignment, or do you put a foot forward? Everyone I've seen puts a foot forward, because it helps in a sudden stop. 










That has a lot to do why cutting horses are ridden with the feet out front some. In a fast stop, it helps.

3 - It arguably helps if the horse decides to buck. You are already in position. However, my horses don't buck - just not their nature. So I'm guessing now.

Does it hurt anyone to ride like that? Well, a dressage or WP seat is better suited for a well trained horse covering ground slowly. It is also a very good way to help the horse collect (some) and make a sharp turn using power from the hind end. It encourages them to bring their hind legs under and frees up their front end to swivel, and that is a very good thing at times. If I want my horse to turn quickly, I do align shoulder-hip-heel, because I've tried both and it works better for that part of the ride.

I will also note it is easy to convert to a forward seat if your stirrups and feet are already in front of your hip. That is what the campdrafter I pictured earlier was doing. It is what I do every time I ask for a canter. A forward seat, even in a western saddle, helps the horse balance and go faster. If your feet are in stirrups forward of the hip, all you have to do is lean forward. If you try it - and I have - you will find your weight shifts to your thighs and you are on a very balanced position on your horse.

The difference between that and the forward seat normally taught is that your leg has less bend, because you aren't going to get out of the seat to jump and you don't need as much shock absorption.

What I'm writing is in line with cavalry manuals. I know that is history, and modern people believe anything written prior to their birth is stupid, but remember - the Cavalry had to take average horses and new riders, and get them capable of riding 30-50 miles in a day, and do it quickly. They did this regularly, by the thousands. At the start of WW1, for example, the British 'drafted' 120,000 horse in 2 weeks (IIRC), and matched them with riders who had never ridden a horse before. City boys. And they had months to learn to ride a horse in combat.

If you haven't tried to train over 100,000 men and horses in weeks, maybe it is worth thinking about those who have. And they did NOT teach 'shoulder-hip-heel' alignment. At a rest, they taught the back of the heel should be 1 inch in front of the chest. They knew full well that other positions would work better for specialized riding, but that was a good way for a new rider to ride a new horse in uncertain terrain, possibly with explosions going on.

I'm sorry some here believe that is stupid, or that they feel free to call names rather than put forth reason and logic. Having shoulder, hip and heel in a vertical line is NOT the "proper" way to ride. It is a variation of the traditional seat used for 2500 years. It is suited for arena riding, but less suitable for riding faster on spookier horses in rougher terrain.

When I took up riding at 50, it quickly became obvious that many instructors and writers taught what they had been taught for their specialty without ANY thought as to why, or why it might not work for all riders and horses everywhere. That doesn't bother me, tho, as much as the arrogance of some who then refuse to discuss things using reason. Perhaps instead of ME quitting HF, maybe some of Y'ALL ought to try thinking. When you can give a REASON for something, get back to me.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Tessa7707 said:


> ...Position is another area that I believe is important. Again, it is easier on the horse if you are positioned over the center of gravity on the horse, which means your legs are not thrown forward. English or western does not matter. Having that center line from head to hip to heel keeps your weight in the easiest place for the horse to carry you...


Where is the center of gravity of a horse? Where is the center of momentum of a fast moving horse? I'll give you a hint - it isn't co-located with the deepest part of a dressage saddle. It isn't co-located with the deepest part of a western saddle, either. Now, how do your legs affect YOUR center of gravity? And where is the horse's center of gravity if it is moving in a highly collected gait? How should THAT affect your position?


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

bsms said:


> What I'm writing is in line with cavalry manuals. I know that is history, and modern people believe anything written prior to their birth is stupid, but remember - the Cavalry had to take average horses and new riders, and get them capable of riding 30-50 miles in a day, and do it quickly. They did this regularly, by the thousands. At the start of WW1, for example, the British 'drafted' 120,000 horse in 2 weeks (IIRC), and matched them with riders who had never ridden a horse before. City boys. And they had months to learn to ride a horse in combat.
> 
> If you haven't tried to train over 100,000 men and horses in weeks, maybe it is worth thinking about those who have. And they did NOT teach 'shoulder-hip-heel' alignment. At a rest, they taught the back of the heel should be 1 inch in front of the chest. They knew full well that other positions would work better for specialized riding, but that was a good way for a new rider to ride a new horse in uncertain terrain, possibly with explosions going on.


Lol, had to pick out this part, everyone knew that most of those boys were going to get killed in a few short weeks.

On a related note they trained a pilot to fly in double quick time for both wars, but you wouldn't want your commercial pilot to take to the skies with such basic instruction would you.


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## JustImagine (Dec 2, 2012)

I completely agree =/


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

I have given you reasons for every single point I have made. I think the fact that many instructors that teach for a living disagree with you is worth considering on your part. 
Like saying lunging isn't a good method of improving a students seat, or putting a complete beginner on 'A good horse' and just letting them figure it out. If you had any teaching experience you would understand what an awful, dangerous, horrible idea that is. Or saying that a 100lb person in a western saddle could never cause discomfort to a horse. These are all things that I believe any good instructor would whole-heartedly disagree with. 


I'm sorry if I seem to come off as arrogant but I am honestly trying my best not to be and I don't feel that anything I said was arrogant. I do feel quite attacked when someone tells me that I teach things without thinking about what I am teaching. Speaking from a personal point of view, I am ALWAYS thinking about what I am teaching. I think about it constantly. At home, at the barn, riding, while I'm cooking dinner. I put _a lot_ into my lessons. 

No one has called you names, at least I'm sure I haven't and if anyone has they are wrong to do so. 

In the same way that you say "If you haven't tried to train over 100,000 men and horses in weeks, maybe it is worth thinking about those who have"
I say, if *you* haven't taught 100's of students to ride and handle horses, maybe it is worth thinking about those who have.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I did not say lunging was bad. I did say that many may choose not to learn that way, because many have and will continue to learn by riding a good horse. I have had lunge lessons, but they are not required to prepare a person to ride a horse.

You have NOT given a single reason that 'shoulder-hip-heel' is proper, and you have ignored the fact that many disciplines reject it. In addition, you have made no attempt to answer my reasons for why it might not be a good idea for some riding.

You said the rider should be near the horse's center of gravity (which I agree with), but you apparently do not know where the horse's center of gravity is located. For a normal horse moving normally, it is below the withers. The picture shows standing. Motion tends to move it forward, and the more speed, the more forward.










Now, compare that to the cowboy in the picture:










How does the horse's center of gravity compare to the man's? And how would it compare if the man brought his legs BACK?

Well, as shown, it is about at his knee. If he brings his legs back, his center of gravity will be FARTHER from the horse's, not closer. Unless - and this is very important - unless the horse is moving in a high degree of collection, as in dressage. Then the horse's frame is compressed and it carries more weight on the hind legs, shifting its center of gravity to the rear and making a dressage seat a very GOOD way to match the horse.

But frankly, if you don't know where the horse's center of gravity is, or how is speed or carriage impacts it, then it is going to be tough to teach someone how to match what you don't know!

I will also point out that since riding is about motion, it is important to look at more than the center of gravity and see how your motion can best match the horse's motion, relieving the horse's back. And unless you are naturally bow-legged, having your heel under your hip is not the best match of human to horse.

If all an instructor can do is ASSERT, and not EXPLAIN, then the instructor isn't worth much. In the OP's first post, she mentions a thread where we debated the whole shoulder-hip-heel thing. She brought that discussion into this thread and continued to say it was 'proper riding', but no one making that claim seems able to say WHY. If you cannot tell an adult WHY, you aren't striving for a very high standard of instruction.

But here is a hint: It IS proper riding for dressage and WP, for a reason. It is not good for jumping or barrel racing, for a reason.

"_putting a complete beginner on 'A good horse' and just letting them figure it out. If you had any teaching experience you would understand what an awful, dangerous, horrible idea that is_."

No, it is not a horrible, awful, dangerous idea. It is how a great many people learn to ride. It is NOT how I would do it, and I made the point that my daughter-in-law took some lessons, then rode for 6 months in an arena with someone watching - until she could canter. Only then did she start trail riding, and she has never gone out by herself. But no, a prospective rider doesn't need months of ground training, endless lunging, etc before being allowed off a lunge line. Far too many people, including every rider I've ever met, learned without doing that.

Nor do you need to be a highly trained instructor to see the signs a horse is unhappy about how the weight is being carried. It actually is pretty easy. And it is easy to explain to the rider, who can then adjust on the fly to what the horse is saying about their riding.

As an instructor, you are free to be as strict as you choose to be. However, many people have learned riding the way I've described. That makes it tough to say one is "higher". It depends on how much risk one is willing to tolerate.

It is reasonable for a school to adjust its training for the student's goals. It is reasonable for a student to assume some risk. It is not fair to say those who assume a higher level of risk than you feel comfortable with do so out of greed or a lack of concern for good riding. If riding is all work and no fun, then we will continue to see declines in the number of folks riding. And if we make it as risk-adverse as possible, we'll probably NEVER see male riders make a comeback.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

You're kidding, right? I don't have time for this at the moment, but I would love to discuss center of balance with you later. That horse is standing downhill, for one, for two, bringing legs back is not the key to the shoulder hip heel alignment.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

I should stay out of this but I wont totally. Have to agree with some of what BSMS is saying:
-There's more than one riding style.
-There's more than one way to teach.
-There's more than one way to learn.

By saying that the only way to teach a beginner is to start out on a lunge line (IE A, then B, then C, Then D-Z) you have locked yourself into a rigid method of training. Does it work for you and the discipline you are teaching? I'm quite sure it does but does it work for other disciplines and all students? I'm just as sure it doesn't.

Good teachers remain flexible, continue to learn other methods of teaching and adjust tactics according to the needs of their students. Good teachers don't get set into a routine and refuse to deviate because it's the "best method". This, I believe, is what BSMS is really trying to say. BSMS, correct me if I'm wrong.

Now to the OP, I agree with you saying steps are being skipped for the almighty dollar amongst trainers. Unfortunately I don't blame them in the least bit because it's exactly what parents are asking of them.


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## goingnowhere1 (Jan 22, 2012)

Everyone learns different ways because there are millions of different ways to teach kid or horse. 
The barn my daughter helps out at has a 7 year old with severe ADHD... So bad that he can't concentrate on one thing for more than a few minutes. Try getting him on a lunge line and not zone out within five minutes. He was taught with a leader walking beside because he needed lots of movement( serpentines and figures) to keep him interested.
There's also a girl who can stay pretty into a lesson for an hour and has no problem being one a lunge to work.
As for the leg position (I am training for eventing), I have always been told to keep my legs under my booty, so therefor they shall stay there. I honestly have no idea why they're under there... One trainer says it helps you lift yourself up at the post... Idk if that's true to not (makes sense though)
But realistically, if a student is taught in a way that best teaches them with an instructor telling them why this or this matters, it doesn't really matter to me how a student it taught. As long as you are taught to work with a horse in the best way, you should achieve the best result.
Well, I wonder how many people are going to yell at me for being wrong


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Tessa7707 said:


> You're kidding, right? I don't have time for this at the moment, but I would love to discuss center of balance with you later. That horse is standing downhill, for one, for two, bringing legs back is not the key to the shoulder hip heel alignment.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


OK, here is one where the horse is NOT standing slightly downhill:

This is Pink Murray, famous wagon boss of the OR ranch in southern Arizona, mounted on his favorite horse:










"bringing legs back is not the key to the shoulder hip heel alignment"

Well, if his heels remain where they are, he sure isn't going to get a vertical line running from heel to hip to shoulder. Not without putting his crotch on the saddle horn...:shock:

Now compare him to a Greek bareback rider of 400 BC:










Other than having clothes on and his toes in the stirrup, there isn't much difference.

Please understand I am NOT saying everyone should ride like Pink Murray. It depends on your goal and on the saddle and horse. On my tall, slender Arabian mare, my heel is barely in front of my hip - mostly. In my Aussie-style saddle. In my Circle y, it will be farther forward because of the cut of the saddle. On a broad back quarter horse I rode a little last year, it will be forward because there was no way at all that my hips would allow my legs to go down straight on that four-legged table! I had to shorten the stirrups as well.

But if an instructor says a vertical line drawn thru heel - hip - shoulder is "proper riding", then the instructor ought to be able to say how it helps. Or that it is proper for certain styles of riding. Or even, "Learn it this way for now, and we'll talk about variations later!" But it cannot be presented as a matter of orthodox belief, not without destroying the credibility of the instructor.

Same with approaches to training. The little riding I did in my early 20s was when visiting a ranch. I'd be told something like, "He's a good horse. Kind of slow, but he'll get you there. If he runs, hang on and he'll quit pretty soon." Then I'd get on and ride. That is NOT the way a riding school should operate, but it helped me think that riding was fun - even if nearly 30 years passed before I started riding for real.

I meet very few men who ride. In fact, apart from this forum, I don't know ANY men who ride. There are a variety of reasons, but it may be that guys prefer a different approach to learning. And as someone who started at 50, I'll say I had a very different approach to learning than most teens - for good and bad.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Leg position, it varies by what you are doing. When I am galloping to a 5ft drop my leg is under my behind, as I hit that drop and wait for landing I am leaning back and my leg pushes out a bit in front, the second I land, my leg is back under me to get my horse balanced again.

There is no doubt about it that there are many styles of riding, as are there many styles of learning.

Do I keep my 5 year old students on a lunge line for half an hour? Heck no! They don't have the attention span. I do however have them on the lunge and ask them to do things like touch their toes, reach for the tail, reach for the ears spin your arms in circles. I then will lead the kid going large and have them do around the world, ride backwards etc etc etc... You adapt your program to match the needs of the students learning ability. 

My knowledge comes from spending years doing the pony club levels(I was studying for my A when I left PC) I have mentored under many different trainers, including some of the best in the world. I have watched, learned and taken in as much as I can. I have been competing for over 22 years. I have been learning for longer. I am always doing different clinics, seminars etc to be able to build my tool box of teaching methods. I am going to listen to someone who has years of experience and certification. Facts are fact bsms, you do not have the experience yet to know what is best, you are still new to riding. Obviously the methods I have been taught and have learned from hundreds of coaches and trainers over the years work, or they wouldn't still be used by coaches and trainers successfully(I audit clinics just to pick up more teaching skills, I audit reining, barrel racing, dressage, jumper, penning, natural horsemanship... anything going on that I can make it to, I am there.) And you know what? I STILL have lots to learn, I in no way consider myself one of the best. I am not. I am still relatively young and always looking to learn more and educate myself more. I do consider myself one of the more solidly educated coaches in my area and more experienced as I had the chance to travel and work in different facilities, I have had a chance to do working student positions and be mentored. But that does not mean by any way shape or form I know it all. I am honest about my abilities. 

I am also aware that just because I may have ridden higher levels of competition through the years, it does not mean I am able to teach higher levels. I can confidently coach students to competition level but when they are ready to move to higher stuff I do refer them to other coaches who can do what they want. I am also realistic with my ability in the terms of there are just some students I don't click with, which means if I know they wont thrive with me I can refer them to someone who will. I want everyone to feel safe and have fun and understand me. 

You keep going back to history for riding. Even the most uneducated eye can see how uncomfortable, and even in pain horses were through history. Mouthes wide open, eyes rolled back, head up in the air, ears pinned to their head, hallowed back... the list goes on. Look at a horse ridden with modern riding by a skilled rider. Horses look relaxed, happy and not in pain. Obviously todays methods work best for horses as we have horses living longer, are able to be ridden to an older age and look healthy doing it.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> ...You keep going back to history for riding. Even the most uneducated eye can see how uncomfortable, and even in pain horses were through history. Mouthes wide open, eyes rolled back, head up in the air, ears pinned to their head, hallowed back... the list goes on. Look at a horse ridden with modern riding by a skilled rider. Horses look relaxed, happy and not in pain. Obviously todays methods work best for horses as we have horses living longer, are able to be ridden to an older age and look healthy doing it.


Right. No pain today. Lots in the past. Except that is historical revisionism. Go back and look at the pictures and paintings I posted. No gaping mouths. Of course, I could have found some - but then, I could find some ugly pictures of reiners, dressage, jumping, trail riding, etc.

For 2500 years, there have been people who rode in synch with the horse, and out of synch. There have been gentle hands, and rough ones. There have been people to whom the horse was a tool, and those to whom it was a friend. A documentary on WW1 & horses made the point how many young men, riding and caring for horses for the first time, came to rely on their horses for emotional support in the face of battle. It isn't something discovered recently.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

Ok, Bsms, I'm back! Using the pictures you posted, here's an overlay. 








I see a rider behind the center of gravity. IMO, I believe it is harder for a horse to carry a rider when they are not balanced above the center of gravity. IMO, this rider is a passenger, not a team player and is behind the motion. Again, In My Opinion. 
Say, for example, this were a student of mine. I would help him identify the weight of each seat bone and the pubic bone and center his weight on that. Yes, men can do this without crushing important stuff. I would ask him "If the horse were to suddenly disappear from beneath you, would you land on your feet? Or would you fall back on your butt?" (In this position, he'd fall back on his butt) I would then take his feet out of the stirrups and pull them out away from the horse and help him rotate his thighs so the inside of them are against the horse, not the back of them, with his thighs near vertical. As far as why I think heels down helps- When your weight flows down through your heels, with your ankles flexed so that your heels are lower than your toes, they act as shock absorbers. I feel it gives the rider a deeper seat. I would then show him what a hollow back vs. a slumped back to help him find where his lower back should be. I think that having my students over-exaggerate the 'wrong' positions makes it easier for them to find the 'right' position. I would address the way his hips are pointing, because right now his pelvis is rocked back, pointing forward. I feel that a pelvis that is in the same position as standing, up and down, not tilted forward or back, allows a rider to follow the motion of the horse better. A pelvis tilted backward, or pointing forward, limits the fluidity of the lower back. I would explain why his lower back needs to be flexible and move with the horse. 
I realize that different disciplines require different seats. I also realize that the faster the horse is moving, the more forward the seat needs to be to stay with the motion of the horse. 
For what I teach, a balanced seat centered over the horses center of gravity is desired for a beginner rider in my lesson program.
This guy on this horse was probably a much better rider than I am, but that horse probably had to work a heck of a lot harder to get the job done. To add to that, I definitely do not feel that the old ways are 'stupid' in any way. I have immense respect for the generations of horsemen and women before me. I realize I still have an enormous amount of information to learn and that I will never know everything I want to know about horses. I just know that some ways make more sense to me than others. Some ways have worked better than others. Some teaching methods help students retain information better than others, and every single student, every single horse is an individual and is treated as such. Of course I adapt each lesson to the student, but I still have milestones, goals, and achievements incorporated into my lesson plans. I think that having a lesson plan at all helps ensure there are no gaps in a student's foundation. 
So, I would like to reiterate, this is my own opinion. You're entitled to yours as long as you don't make snide remarks and tell me I don't think about the reasons behind what I teach.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

bsms said:


> Now compare him to a Greek bareback rider of 400 BC:


I'd also like to make a comment on this image. It's an artist's _rendition_ of people riding horses. Not a photograph....


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

To add one more point: all pictures bsms posted are of horse and rider standing still or front ends either already elevated or in the process of elevating. 
Thee cowboy on the gray is resting, propped against the cantle. Same with the soldiers. I'd love to see these riders in a sitting trot. ....


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

And I thank you for a thought out response.

The traditional seat always puts the rider behind the horse. That was the point of the forward seat. By moving the feet forward, and then leaning forward at speed, the rider comes very close to the horse's center of gravity. But if the rider is in a vertical line, then his crotch would have to be on top of the withers for it to match the horse's center of gravity. The one exception would be in highly collected gaits, when the horse's center of gravity moves aft - by compressing the frame (head tucked back) and by shifting more weight to the rear haunches.

"_I feel that a pelvis that is in the same position as standing, up and down, not tilted forward or back, allows a rider to follow the motion of the horse better._"

I doubt you'll be shocked to find we disagree. The spine cannot compress. It can flex horizontally, but it isn't a shock absorber. That is why it is more difficult to ride a dressage seat well. It is easier to absorb the motion of the horse's back if your body forms an angle, bent at the hips to make it about 160 degrees or so. Then the hips can move forward and up to make the body angle straighter - maybe 170-175 degrees - and then back into the slight bent angle of 160.

With practice, a rider can accept some of the motion in his lower back and pelvis and some by taking the motion in his thighs, but that is harder to do - which may be one of the reasons it is prized in dressage, since it takes a good rider to do it well. I think it is easy to see the motion I'm talking about in the video of Craig Cameron I posted earlier.

I used to agree that the horse had to work harder using the traditional seat - dressage or western. I still think that is true, but not as true as I thought. If the rider can move his pelvis in synch with the horse's back, then the interruption of the horse's back is kept to a minimum. However, it becomes even less an interference with a forward seat, and for complete freedom of motion, you need to go to a jockey style of riding. But a jockey accepts the danger of falling because a race of 1.25 miles may be decided by 3 inches... 

Note: if you watch True Grit, in the end John Wayne jumps a fence in a western saddle. He was 61, IIRC, and didn't use a stunt man. And he weighed nearly 250 lbs. Good horse! But I think we can all agree a jump seat and saddle allows a horse to jump even higher.

"_For what I teach, a balanced seat centered over the horses center of gravity is desired for a beginner rider in my lesson program._"

Unless you teach a forward seat, you don't achieve your aim. But if you teach them to move with the horse's back, you keep most of the safety of being behind the center of gravity, while allowing the horse adequate freedom of motion. It isn't evil to be behind the horse's center of gravity. It promotes safety when a horse suddenly stops - safety that presumably isn't needed in dressage or western pleasure, since both of those are trying to show a horse under total control with impeccable training. It becomes more important if riding a green horse, such as what many cowboys rode in the 1800s, or with my spooky mare and her "OMG Crouch"! A rider needs to trade off safety with freedom for the horse's back, and there are various ways of doing that. I like the Australian stock saddle because if you get too forward - something I've explored at times between my lack of ability and grace - the poleys prevent your thighs from sliding farther forward. The same effect can come from a beartrap front in a western saddle.

"_As far as why I think heels down helps- When your weight flows down through your heels, with your ankles flexed so that your heels are lower than your toes, they act as shock absorbers._"

Agreed. How much shock absorption is needed depends on the goal. For jumping, I am certain it is very important because the folks who know jumping say it is, and I have no basis for arguing. For flat riding, it may not be as important. Lots of flat riding teaches almost no weight in the stirrups, which would minimize the value.

Of course, heels down also minimizes the change of the foot slipping into or thru the stirrup. And for heels down, it is easier if your feet are slightly forward. Try this while you read: put your heel under your hip. See how much you can raise your toe. You may be able to raise it a lot. I cannot. In fact, heel under hip forces my heels slightly up. But heel at belt buckle allows my toe to go up about 2 inches. The toe can only rise so much compared to the shin. If the shin is tilted under you, then the toe rise has to counter that tilt. If it is vertical, the toe up goes all to raising the toe. And if the heel is forward, then the shin is already tilted and the toe can go further up (or the heel further down).

You don't need to trust me. You can show it to yourself while sitting at your computer. Feet forward makes heels down easier. But it WILL rob you of a hinge, so it is a bad idea if you value shock absorption thru the heel.

"_I'd also like to make a comment on this image. It's an artist's rendition of people riding horses. Not a photograph.._.."

Correct, and ancient artists were not always concerned with total accuracy. But it is so close to how most bareback riders ride that it seems likely to be accurate. And the ancient saddles we have record of tend to have the stirrups forward too. Random internet picture:



















It also matches most of the pictures I can find of ancient riders, and it seems unlikely that all the ancient artists were imagining how people rode.










Although at least one image of racing indicates a forward seat:










"Unique greek art souvenir from Greece handmade greek bronze statue of the Jockey of Artemision, found in pieces, in the area of a shipwreck off the cape Artemision, in north Euvea, now found in the Archeological Museum of Athens. The bronze sculpture sits on a Tinos marble base, depicts a young man riding a horse with reins in his left hand and a whip in the right."


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> To add one more point: all pictures bsms posted are of horse and rider standing still or front ends either already elevated or in the process of elevating.
> Thee cowboy on the gray is resting, propped against the cantle. Same with the soldiers. I'd love to see these riders in a sitting trot. ....


All the photos taken at 90 deg in the early 1900s were at a rest. But you will see the same in the pics in motion, although it is harder to see:





































You can view a few hundred pictures here:

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

GREAT website!

I use that approach when riding almost every ride. At a relaxed western jog, my horse & I both seem to find it very comfortable. At a fast trot, we both prefer a forward seat. 

Here is Craig Cameron again:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Another neat picture, just for fun:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Campdrafters, in motion. It looks like a cross between a western seat and a forward seat.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

that's what I meant with a good western seat.....trot


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Beginning phase of a stop, with seat only


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Position of the lower leg. Left correct, right, too far forward, heel pressed down against the stirrup. Note in the left pic, position of the foot is straight and relaxed.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Stick figure time
Hollow back, shoulder hip heel in line, but very tense and still slightly in front of the center of gravity line which puts more weight on the forehand


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Tilting the pelvis back, with a straight back and legs still straight enough down allows for swinging with the horses movement and brings the rider's weight slightly behind the center of gravity on the much stronger hindend of the horse.
This seat is very relaxing, especially for the rider's back, lets you give all aids precisely and without tension and allows for the so much sought after invisible aids.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rpulN91qgQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This is a video of the above mentioned riding.
The author of the book I took the photos from "created" this style with elements from classical dressage, California/Vaquero and Spanish riding. 

Not necessarily with the original topic, rather to demonstrate what hobby and outdoor riding "western style" should be. 
First and foremost for the best of the horse, second for the comfort of the rider.


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## Tianimalz (Jan 6, 2009)

Just wanted to pipe in! I love this thread! As a self-taught rider this is all so very informative, and by comparing the photos of NB, and desert and a few others to videos of myself, I've actually found I've been a bit behind my horse on more than one occasion. Very embarrassing when one thinks they've gotten good, but are too shy to post for critiques on a public forum :lol:

Not to derail or anything, just wanted to say *Thanks guys!* I love all this information, it's very helpful to us backwoods riders, and I'm sure my mares will thank you for telling me what they've been trying too! Bahahahaha.


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## ReiningCrazy (Jan 20, 2012)

Sorry I havent read the whole thread but the thing that caught my eye was the comment that " I would never put my kid in lessons with someone who is not certified or being mentored by someone that is a certified mentor." I think just because someone does not pay money to be "certified" does not make them a good coach. My coaches are a husband and wife team and they show, breed, train their own Reining horses and coach others on lesson horses or their own horses, they are not certified in any way by the OEF but they still have a great teaching program and their students are always winning in the show pen. Because they are not certified, does that mean I should be going else where for lessons?

I think it is up to the parent or student to find a barn and program that work for what you want. We have people at our barn who use their lessons as a social activity, all they want to do is get on and ride and have tea after the lesson. So the coach might not get into Lunging or anatomy with them, but there are students like me who wish to own horses and compete and our coaches know and they teach us differently. 

Sorry I am done rambling.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

ReiningCrazy said:


> Sorry I havent read the whole thread but the thing that caught my eye was the comment that " I would never put my kid in lessons with someone who is not certified or being mentored by someone that is a certified mentor." I think just because someone does not pay money to be "certified" does not make them a good coach. My coaches are a husband and wife team and they show, breed, train their own Reining horses and coach others on lesson horses or their own horses, they are not certified in any way by the OEF but they still have a great teaching program and their students are always winning in the show pen. Because they are not certified, does that mean I should be going else where for lessons?
> 
> I think it is up to the parent or student to find a barn and program that work for what you want. We have people at our barn who use their lessons as a social activity, all they want to do is get on and ride and have tea after the lesson. So the coach might not get into Lunging or anatomy with them, but there are students like me who wish to own horses and compete and our coaches know and they teach us differently.
> 
> Sorry I am done rambling.


 
I do understand what you are saying. My old trainer was not certified but he competed GP Jumpers and I had a few "test lessons" with him before switching. I loved him.

I should have been more clear on my comment. I would not put my child as a beginner in a program with no certified instructor(IOB) or coach. I know the ones with the piece of paper did the work to be able to confidently teach beginners properly. 

Its a little different when you have miles under your belt and go into a trainer that specializes in one or two areas.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Position of the lower leg. Left correct, right, too far forward, heel pressed down against the stirrup. Note in the left pic, position of the foot is straight and relaxed.


Right, and with the leg forward like that it puts the body in a rigid position bracing against the cantle. I see this if a student doesn't understand the 'heels down' concept quite right, they just jam their heels down. Thanks!
And thanks to everyone for keeping this thread relatively mature and constructive!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This is to demonstrate how handy a horse can be, even a rather big Lusitano, when ridden with the classical/Iberian methods
Off topic, I know, but I think bsms would enjoy that


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Tessa7707 said:


> Right, and with the leg forward like that it puts the body in a rigid position bracing against the cantle. I see this if a student doesn't understand the 'heels down' concept quite right, they just jam their heels down. Thanks!
> *And thanks to everyone for keeping this thread relatively mature and constructive*!


I don't want to be mature! I refuse *stomps and pouts*

I honestly just gave up. However I do have some stuff I will add when I get home from work as there are some examples I want to put up with english for jumping, HUS and dressage. Just to follow the recent posts as well as helping expand the subject of different styles.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKWau0fGpr4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
And another.....for you reiners out there;-)

This, and the other video, show the correct seat I was talking about above


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> Position of the lower leg. Left correct, right, too far forward, heel pressed down against the stirrup. Note in the left pic, position of the foot is straight and relaxed.


You can call it correct, but I'd like to hear a REASON why it performs better. Please remember that in many western disciplines, the second picture is 'correct'.

Again, it depends on the type of riding that you do.



deserthorsewoman said:


> ...First and foremost for the best of the horse, second for the comfort of the rider.


Again, it depends. Safety for the rider takes precedence over comfort for the horse. And if it is comfort for the horse, I recommend we all switch to a forward seat - which, if done right, is also pretty safe. And all of my horses move more comfortably, and will keep a pace up longer, and use their back more with a forward seat.

There are reasons why people ride with feet forward. And frankly, I'm hard pressed to come up with any negatives. My horses move better that way than if I follow your up-down stick figure. They seem to find it more comfortable. It is more secure during unplanned stops, which many people deal with, and it is easy to switch to a forward seat for going fast. It helps keep the heels down (safety), and it is a more natural way for the leg to drape the body of a horse.

I am not saying it is WRONG to ride with shoulder-hip-heel alignment. It works very well for some types of riding. What I find bizarre is the idea that it works well for ALL riding, when it is rejected by jumpers, cutters, polo players, reiners, barrel racers, ropers, racers...all of whom know what works for their riding.

This picture is about 2 years old. My feet don't stick so far out to the side now, although they still stick out further than I'd like. But compare this to the picture you posted:










Heel at or just in front of the belt buckle is what I normally do, and is also what you are showing as correct - but it is not shoulder-hip-heel straight line alignment. How far forward one goes with the heel depends on the horse, the saddle, your legs - mine are trying to overcome the muscle tension of 40 years of jogging - and what you want to do that day and that moment.

For a tight turn, my heels come back. It gets me a faster and more balanced tight turn. For trotting down a trail, my feet go further forward and I sit the trot, letting the motion of my hips absorb the motion of the horse's back. For a canter, I lean forward and the only difference between what I do and a more typical forward seat is that my stirrups stay long.

What style you teach is totally up to you. What I tell folks, as a non-trainer, non-teacher, non-pro rider, is that for any given saddle, use a position that lets the stirrup strap (or fender) hang straight down and your butt in the deepest part of the saddle. Anything else will mean you fight your saddle and gravity. I would actually like my feet to hang further forward, but I don't like fighting gravity. I have and use a Bates Caprilli CC saddle, a Circle Y Mojave and 2 Australian style saddles. Each saddle fits me a bit different, but I can choose between fighting my saddle, and accepting it. I generally find it best to accept it. YMMV.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

You look way better seat wise than the cowboys you posted

And if you look at the second stick figure, lower leg position IS slightly forward. 
I would suggest you try the pelvis tilt. It will make you more comfortable. Then, once you have that, try moving your hip with the hip of your horse. First in a walk, then jogging. You'll know when you have it right, your back will tell you.
As for bracing in the stirrups, weight on a stirrup is a very refined aid for a turn with a well trained horse, hence the straight, relaxed foot of the correct seat.

I hope you enjoyed the working Equitation clip!


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

Agreed, DHW. Your seat does look better than any of the cowboy or greek pictures you posted.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKWau0fGpr4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> And another.....for you reiners out there;-)
> 
> This, and the other video, show the correct seat I was talking about above


Hey, this video would be helpful over in that western dressage thread. That's closer to what I was thinking western dressage would look like.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I had something written and have changed my mind... I will get back to this tonight


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

I know, Tessa, I didn't post it to avoid more nasty comments;-)
But go ahead


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> You look way better seat wise than the cowboys you posted
> 
> And if you look at the second stick figure, lower leg position IS slightly forward.
> I would suggest you try the pelvis tilt. It will make you more comfortable. Then, once you have that, try moving your hip with the hip of your horse. First in a walk, then jogging. You'll know when you have it right, your back will tell you.
> ...


About to go riding with my wife and DIL, so I'll watch the clip later. I agree with bracing being bad, although it was a big part of how the cowboys rode in 1900. Barry Godden explained how he was taught years ago by a guy with his roots in that style...it works, because I've tried it and it isn't horrible, but the saddles then were designed for it. A Texas saddle of 1890 would often have a cantle 6-8 inches high, compared to modern western saddles where 5 inches is pretty much the upper limit. Here is what Barry wrote a while back...FYI, and not how I like to ride:



Barry Godden said:


> Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.
> 
> The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.
> The second lesson was to learn to ride with signficant weight carried on the stirrups at all times.
> ...


From this old thread:

http://www.horseforum.com/western-riding/posting-while-trotting-male-riders-79035/page4/#post942370

Going for a short ride now. But thanks for turning this into a thought-provoking thread. It may have drifted for its original intent, but I enjoy reading what y'all are writing...


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

NBEventer said:


> I had something written and have changed my mind... I will get back to this tonight


I saw it;-)*looking at the clock..... *;-)


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

I didn't learn by lunge line lesson, I learned by being tossed up on a horse. When I finally began taking formal lessons, I did it in a dangerous way. Not knowing this of course. I took lessons from this crazy old russian lady who would give group lessons while she read magazines. In one month of 2 x weekly riding lessons, I went from her "beginner horse" to riding horses that only had a rider on them 2-3 times before me. Obviously I had a good seat but that came before I took any lessons from her. Looking back, I am so thankful that I wasn't hurt at that barn. I enjoyed the freedom and the perceived feeling of advancing quickly. All that said, it would have been far more beneficial to learn to ride properly from the beginning. 

I believe there are many ways to teach a rider and some folks learn better in different methods. All that said, I agree with lunge lessons for the safety of the horse and rider. Teaching a rider proper seat and hands before they have control of the horse is in my opinion, the best way. It respects the horse too. Allowing kids to bounce around on a horses mouth is not fair to the horse. 

I know there are a lot of folks out there that have taken a handful of riding lessons and believe themselves to be great riders, with great seats and fantastic gentle hands. I suspect the horses these folks ride would differ in opinion if they could speak. It takes time to develop these good riding habits and skills. It takes time to develop the muscle so... fast is not always better. 

At another barn there were 2 trainers. One was more popular because he got things going so much fast, the other took things slowly. Guess which trainer produced more winning riders? It may have taken them a little longer to get there but when they did, they knew what they were doing. I also think riding lessons should be about more then just riding, it should include horse care.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

Agreed, and Agreed Inga. I think there are way to many 'riders' out there that don't know anything about _horsemanship_. The daily care that goes into a horse, ground work, lunging, clipping, trailering, safe tying, nutrition, vaccinations and worming, the list goes on. I am a huge advocate on that. 
There are as many ways to teach as there are to learn, and the more you understand methods different from what works for you and the more methods you can implement, the better. For example, I give my students take-home reading materials to reiterate what they learned in class. One might be a list of grooming tools with pictures that the student can take home, look at, one more chance to retain it, or refer to it if they forget. Some students are visual like that, some retain better when they hear it, Some need metaphors like 'melt into your saddle' , all usually benefit from actually doing it, some benefit from seeing a demonstration. The more methods you can utilize to teach, the more chances you have for the student to receive the info in a way that is easiest for them.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

NBEventer said:


> It makes me so happy when I hear there are other coaches out there.


About a year ago, for a short while there was an amazing instructor at our barn. She was Austrian, and had been trained in classical dressage in Europe; she was "old-school" in the best sense of the word, and taught me so much. The lunge was a critical tool, and I can definitely see a decline in my riding since she's left and those lessons have ended. 

She also taught me a lot about lunging my horse to work on her self-carriage, and one thing I appreciated was that I wasn't allowed to actually work with the horse on the lunge line until I could demonstrate my proficiency with a lunge whip hitting a precise series of "x"s on the wall of the arena to be sure I wasn't miscuing the horse. Unfortunately, she left our barn before I was able to demonstrate said proficiency, so I still don't feel like I'm a capable lunger. I do miss those lessons though, both mounted and on the ground.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

egrogan said:


> About a year ago, for a short while there was an amazing instructor at our barn. She was Austrian, and had been trained in classical dressage in Europe; she was "old-school" in the best sense of the word, and taught me so much. The lunge was a critical tool, and I can definitely see a decline in my riding since she's left and those lessons have ended.
> 
> She also taught me a lot about lunging my horse to work on her self-carriage, and one thing I appreciated was that I wasn't allowed to actually work with the horse on the lunge line until I could demonstrate my proficiency with a lunge whip hitting a precise series of "x"s on the wall of the arena to be sure I wasn't miscuing the horse. Unfortunately, she left our barn before I was able to demonstrate said proficiency, so I still don't feel like I'm a capable lunger. I do miss those lessons though, both mounted and on the ground.


I would have loved lessons with her! She sounds fantastic!


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

Although I posted all that western and Spanish stuff, im still for longing as the beginning. Where im from, kids, littlens, 4, 5 year olds, start out with vaulting. When these kids go into riding lessons, they have fantastic seat and balance, are not the least bit afraid, only have to learn to point the toes up. Speaks for longe line lessons, I think.....


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

I second the vaulting! I used to teach that at the camp I worked at as well and I'm working on developing my own program now. I'm working with the horse and saving up for a good surcingle. Vaulting helps with regular riding SO much, especially with bravery. Even a very beginner rider can do a free kneel on a horse with a spotter and it gives them so much confidence! 
I really like the idea of starting 4-5 year olds vaulting before riding. At our camp our age limit was 7. Now that I'm on my own, I take some 4, 5 and 6 year olds for what I call my 'Lil' Buckaroo' program. Basically lead-line lessons. I love the idea of vaulting to start them off though. I love hearing what other people do and getting new ideas.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

I love vaulting! That is basically what my munchkins do(4 - 7 years). They will learn inside/outside by doing arm circles, inside hand to outside toe, outside to inside, reach up to the ears, reach back to the tail. Then when they are comfortable with the basics of that I will start having them do around the world, ride backwards, bring their knees to their chin(spotted) bring their inside leg so their heel touches their bum, then do the outside. I just have them moving all over the place to gain confidence and learn balance. As I am ready to teach trot I will have them stand in their stirrups and they walk standing in their stirrups, then have them post at the walk with hands on grab strap then no hands. Then we go to the trot and start it.

Ok supposed to be working but I will post more tonight with pictures lol


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Wanted to add, I know what I do with my kiddos isn't really vaulting but its as close as we can get with an english saddle and no surcingle. I am saving up to get one though so I can start doing more. My kids love doing stuff, even the teenagers. Always doing head stands on their horses, summer saults off their horse, standing up. So I want to save for a nice surcingle and hopefully do more with the kiddos.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXONEVOPBvU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Barbie and Ken


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## Fulford15 (Oct 17, 2012)

That is the way I way taught how to ride, lunge line, no stirrups, no reins, closed eyes to help feel my balance. I think it is a great way to learn and also a great way to build a one on one relationship with a student. 
As I am working towards being a Certified Coach, I intend to use these methods to coach students, it is part of my lesson planning that gets submitted.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

deserthorsewoman said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXONEVOPBvU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> Barbie and Ken


Haha! That was awesome!


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Fulford15 said:


> That is the way I way taught how to ride, lunge line, no stirrups, no reins, closed eyes to help feel my balance. I think it is a great way to learn and also a great way to build a one on one relationship with a student.
> As I am working towards being a Certified Coach, I intend to use these methods to coach students, it is part of my lesson planning that gets submitted.


Are you working on your CC or IOB?


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## Fulford15 (Oct 17, 2012)

nbeventer said:


> are you working on your cc or iob?


cc


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Fulford15 said:


> cc


Wahoo!!!! Good for you  I am bummed out because I hold my PC B1 which is equivalent to CC 1. However I lost my certificate and the pony club branch I was part of is no more which means I can't use it to challenge my CC. So I have to go through the entire process through EC *sigh*

Now I need to find a horse that stays consistent as my mare is missing a few parts of her brain and not dependable enough mentally for the process. So I am on the hunt for a horse to use and I can go after it. And need to find the money as I will be traveling to get the competitions in since we don't have much of a show circuit in my neck of the woods. 

Good luck! I'll be rooting for you!


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## Fulford15 (Oct 17, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> Wahoo!!!! Good for you  I am bummed out because I hold my PC B1 which is equivalent to CC 1. However I lost my certificate and the pony club branch I was part of is no more which means I can't use it to challenge my CC. So I have to go through the entire process through EC *sigh*
> 
> Now I need to find a horse that stays consistent as my mare is missing a few parts of her brain and not dependable enough mentally for the process. So I am on the hunt for a horse to use and I can go after it. And need to find the money as I will be traveling to get the competitions in since we don't have much of a show circuit in my neck of the woods.
> 
> Good luck! I'll be rooting for you!


Thank you!!  I am very excited, I've been wanting to do this since I was about 12-13 (I used to teach all my friends to ride), now that I am 20, I am finally able to reach my goal.

Ahh yes!! Sadly, my PC shut down before I had the chance to challenge my B1 Level, I have my C3 and proof of it (My mom was our clubs D.C.), so I didn't have to take my Learn To Ride Program as it's equivalent for the levels.

There is no show circuit in my area either... Fort McMurray, Alberta.. theres a whole lot of nothing here lol, I am lucky enough to have horses to ride and train though and a coach in Edmonton to mentor under. I can go there to show and Calgary as well, but it's a long dangerous trailer ride for the horses, so I am too, somewhat horse-less for that lol!


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## Darrin (Jul 11, 2011)

Fulford15 said:


> That is the way I way taught how to ride, lunge line, no stirrups, no reins, closed eyes to help feel my balance.


And I would become dizzy and fall out of the saddle in less than two circuits. Just can't handle going in circles.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

bsms said:


> .


Okay I have to say I am rather impressed, seeing as the way you go on and on and on I was honestly expecting a train wreck.

However, your leg is still a little ahead of you, you are locked in your pelvic area which is more then likely why you have a hard time with sitting trot. If you relax your pelvis by opening it up and pulling your lower leg a smidgen back you would have no problem. Your heels are at a correct angle. You do need to just sit on your seat bones a bit more. Also more of a direct line from your elbow to the bit. 

Everything you use to support your argument would be proven wrong if you tried the above.

Moving on. Now we talk about different disciplines and styles requiring a different seat. Yep this is true to a small degree. Lets break down different styles.

Now I know you hate dressage and refuse to believe it is a style of riding everyone uses in their training. But we all know this is a lie ;-) So I am going to start with one of my favorite dressage riders, David Marcus as an example.

Now I am sure you will be shocked to find me agree that his leg is still not in the most ideal place










While his leg isn't bad, his ankle is just a smidgen to far back, but I suspect he was asking for something in this shot so that could be the reason. But if you see his hip angle open which allows his body to move with the movement of the horse. By opening your pelvis you are allowing your body to move with the motion of the horse. A steady lower leg helps this as well.

Ideally in this picture I would want more of a straight line from elbow to bit and straighter wrists, but all in all its not bad.

So looking at this, I see a nice relaxed horse that is using itself and listening to his rider without thinking of ways to make him a lawn dart.

Moving on to jumping










Again we see a rider with a nice line from hip to heel. Her lower leg is staying nicely back while she keeps a majority of her weight in her heels while opening up to allow the horse to move up and under her over the fence.

Again I also see a nice happy relaxed horse listening to his rider, moving freely under his rider allowing him to have a nice relaxed jump.

Lets move on to eventing










Again, we see a nice line from hip to heel which means the riders leg is under him, we see him keeping himself centered to allow his horse to move freely and have a nice jump without interfering. 










Same thing landing a fence, nice leg under the rider, now his hip is not lined up with his heel, but his leg is also not straight out in front of him. He is staying out of the way of his horses movement.

Western pleasure










Again a nice line from shoulder, to elbow, hip to heel. Leg is under her nicely, her horse is moving free under her and looks relaxed and happy. 

Reining... I am using two examples here because Stacy Westfall is my idol. I love her. 










Now here she is in her epic performance with Roxy at Congress. Bareback and Bridleless and looky here... in a sliding stop her leg is under her, she is balanced while letting her horse move under here










Not going to lie, reining isn't really my thing, and I have never ridden a sliding stop on purpose. So I don't know the right way about it. However here I see a horse focused on its job, happy about it and a rider staying fairly centered for the movement and again... leg under him.

Barrel racing










Okay so this is a hard one because I can't seem to find a side shot showing the persons position around a barrel. However here you can see a balanced rider, their leg is fairly under them and their horse is again using itself around the barrel

Endurance/Trail riding










Look at that? Riders leg is back, straight line hip to heel and hey! Out on an endurance ride... imagine that ;-)

I could continue on but I think I have proved my point. While the upper body may change depending on what you are doing... your lower leg stays back under you.

I am sure I am missing a lot but my brain is fried from a cruddy day at work and I am tired.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I also learned to ride no reins/no stirrups on the lunge. Also worked in riding schools where beginners in group lessons were led by keen young people who were rewarded with a free ride for their work - same thing for the beginners - no reins, stirrups. 
Everyone wants cheap or fast results.
We had a young woman come her who had ridden at local riding schools for years and looked OK but my sons mare sorted her out in 5 minutes - and he's had her since he was 14 and we dont consider her a challenge, she got on our most sedate mare and booted her in the sides - mare shot off like a rocket (never seen her move so fast) and then got jerked in the mouth and never seen her stop so fast either. Woman came off. Good job sands a soft landing. She termed herself an experienced rider. 
If people spent more time really learning how to ride instead of 'just sticking on' and hoping for the best or sitting there looking pretty there would be far less problem horses
Most horses that spook and bolt do it because the riders (a) lose balance & (b) dont know how to react quickly enough to ask the horse not to move its feet.


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## Fulford15 (Oct 17, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> Now I know you hate dressage and refuse to believe it is a style of riding everyone uses in their training. But we all know this is a lie ;-)


 
Funny how many people think this... I used to be one of those riders, all I thought was "Jump, Jump, Jump, some flat work, and Jump!!" Thats what I was taught. Until, my Mom put me into a Dressage clinic, I wasn't thrilled, but after that clinic, riding made so much more sense to me, from then on I depended on my Dressage skills for my regular every day hack or practise for a show. I then moved onto a different coach who is a level 2 Dressage coach(-Was married to Alan Belasik), level 2 Jumping coach, and Level 3 theory coach all in one, and WOW did I ever start riding better from Dressage and realized it is applied to everything riding, even when I rode Western. 
You don't realize it but your leg yields, half halts, having your horse bend (no not see-sawing!), collecting, etc, are all theory of Dressage!


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Fulford15 said:


> Funny how many people think this... I used to be one of those riders, all I thought was "Jump, Jump, Jump, some flat work, and Jump!!" Thats what I was taught. Until, my Mom put me into a Dressage clinic, I wasn't thrilled, but after that clinic, riding made so much more sense to me, from then on I depended on my Dressage skills for my regular every day hack or practise for a show. I then moved onto a different coach who is a level 2 Dressage coach(-Was married to Alan Belasik), level 2 Jumping coach, and Level 3 theory coach all in one, and WOW did I ever start riding better from Dressage and realized it is applied to everything riding, even when I rode Western.
> You don't realize it but your leg yields, half halts, having your horse bend (no not see-sawing!), collecting, etc, are all theory of Dressage!


Amazing isn't it? bsms refuses to believe that dressage is part of every day riding. The debate was a bit of a headache honestly.

Anyway my coach is a level 2 dressage coach, level 2 jumper coach and the head coaching coordinator for our area. She has been my coach since I was a kid(20 some odd years now). I have ridden with her off and on as I did move west for awhile. Regardless our entire winter is dressage. We lose our stirrups from Jan - March(ish). It is because of her that I was so successful in the jumper ring. She put some solid flat skills in me. I used to hate it as a kid because I just wanted to jump jump jump. Now I see how important it is, I love it.

A huge eye opener for me was when I was riding with some big name jumper riders and they almost never jump unless they are going to a show. Huge eye opener for a jump crazy kid. I now look forward to dressage clinics. I love that so many dressage clinics are full of students who jump and event.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> ...However, your leg is still a little ahead of you, you are locked in your pelvic area which is more then likely why you have a hard time with sitting trot. If you relax your pelvis by opening it up and pulling your lower leg a smidgen back you would have no problem. Your heels are at a correct angle. You do need to just sit on your seat bones a bit more. Also more of a direct line from your elbow to the bit.
> 
> Everything you use to support your argument would be proven wrong if you tried the above.
> 
> ...


First, I do not hate dressage. I get along well with a number of dressage riders on the forum, but dressage is NOT the end all of riding. As your photos prove...

The point is NOT "Should the rider be balanced", because the answer is obviously yes - so saying so and so is balanced doesn't contradict anything I've written.

Jumpers are balanced over their stirrup, but they do NOT keep heel-hip-shoulder in a vertical line. Nor do they in any of your photos. The shoulder is forward, and the hip is behind, and the result is a 50:50 balance above the stirrup. Since this allows the saddle to pivot at the stirrup bar, it frees the back and keeps the rider's center of gravity near or just a tiny bit behind the horse's - which is great for the horse's freedom, comfort, and balance. But it is NOT a dressage seat, it is not based on a dressage seat, and it is not a heel-hip-shoulder alignment. It is, in fact, exactly what I have argued with you: a balanced, good way of riding which is not founded on the dressage seat.

General Patton gave a great example years ago:








"_Again, we see a nice line from hip to heel which means the riders leg is under him_"​No. You have a very slanted line from hip to heel, as it must be since the hip is behind and the shoulder is in front. It is balanced over the stirrup, which is darn good if you are jumping. It is not the end all of riding, however."_Not going to lie, reining isn't really my thing, and I have never ridden a sliding stop on purpose. So I don't know the right way about it. However here I see a horse focused on its job, happy about it and a rider staying fairly centered for the movement and again... leg under him._"​Shawn Flarida was first rider in history to become the National Reining Horse Association’s (NRHA) Four Million Dollar Rider:










Here is a video. His heel position varies, as I think it ought to while riding, but on the whole his heel is in front of his buckle. Remember, the cantle is shorter now than most were in the 1800s. I suggest freezing it to look:






Barrel racing - around a barrel, the heels tend to go under the hip. As I've written, I do that too because shifting my weight back and bringing my heel back helps the horse make a tight turn. On the straight runs, a more forward seat approach is used - a very similar approach as the campdrafter I pictured earlier. It is probably easiest to see in a video rather than a still clip:






A screencapture from the video I link to below:















Again, nothing is wrong or improper about that, but it is NOT a heel-hip-shoulder vertical line. It does set the guy up to lean forward and use a long-legged style of a forward seat."_While the upper body may change depending on what you are doing... your lower leg stays back under you._"​No. If your lower leg stays under the hip while you lean forward, you WILL be off balance.

A traditional seat, as shown in pictures varying from 600 AD China to 400 BC Greece to 1900 Texas, does not keep the heel under the hip. And the pictures and videos above help explain why that can be good. Far from unbalancing a horse, it actually moves your center of gravity that much closer to the horse's even when your back is vertical.










Nor does it ruin the horse's back - not if you can move the way Craig Cameron was demonstrating:






As VS Littauer pointed out (an he wasn't a fan of a dressage seat), riding is about MOTION. Not POSITION. And if your hips move with your horse, there is a lot less pressure on your horse's back. And yes, it is easier to flex if there is already a bend (an angle) between the line formed from heel to hip, and the line formed from hip to shoulder. The traditional, or even historic seat, put that to good use.

If you watch the reining video, you will see a LOT of movement in Mr Flarida's hips and lower back. Same with Craig Cameron. It works, and it does not unbalance or harm your horse. And what works is NOT improper.

That is not hating on dressage. Dressage focuses on collected gaits, and a collected gait has the horse's center of gravity further back than a faster horse. It makes perfect sense to ride in a style that fits what you are trying to do. 

A screen capture from Stacy Westerfall's ride:










Greek rider, 440 BC:










Some quick advantages to heels forward:

1 - Sets up easy transition to a forward seat
2 - Easy to flex back to move with the horse's back
3 - Center of gravity matches the horse's better
4 - Allows easiest flow of leg around horse
5 - Provides a blocking leg to control the horse's direction
6 - Easiest way to get the heel down
7 - Best position if your horse decides to do the OMG Crouch

Harmful effects:

1 - Poor for turning a tight turn
2 - Too forward for a highly collected horse
3 - Umm....??????????

Again, there is nothing wrong with teaching a dressage seat, provided your student also understands that others can and will sometimes do different, based on their riding needs - and that it isn't wrong to use a different style.

Personally, I mostly ride the saddle. I want my rump in the deepest part of the seat (if it is in the seat - when I shift forward I roll onto my thighs and my butt isn't exactly in the saddle any longer), and the stirrup straps to hang vertical. Whatever that does, I accept because it isn't worth it to fight the saddle. One nice thing about the 1" straps, however, is that you can pretty easily change position by a few inches to match your goal for that moment in time. And that is why my heels vary during a ride - sometimes under my hip, sometimes in front of my belt buckle, and sometimes further ahead near my horse's shoulder. I used all 3 multiple times during our very simple trail ride today.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

NBEventer said:


> Amazing isn't it? bsms refuses to believe that dressage is part of every day riding. The debate was a bit of a headache honestly...


And oddly enough, some of the proud dressage riders on the forum agree with me. Dressage is a sport based on good general riding, and taking it in its own direction. It is a specific refinement of good riding, but it is not the basis of all riding. I have repeatedly said I admire dressage riders and horses, but that doesn't mean I ride dressage....



~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Having to have an immense knowledge of DRESSAGE is absent from all other disciplines is what she meant. Might want to re-read some stuff.
> 
> I don't have to know about cows to ride dressage, same with people who work cattle don't need to know diddly about dressage to be good at working cows...
> 
> ...I will say this again. Good riding is the basis for all riding. Dressage is a sport. To all the dressage people whining about the sport being the end all be all of riding and how no one else can ride - you are the ones that make us all sound so snooty. A leg yield, a shoulder in, etc.. are not movements exclusive to dressage and should be included in any rider's repertoire as a basis to being a good rider. Being able to half halt a horse in such a way that they shift weight to their haunches while remaining in a connection, on the contact and swinging through the back in collection in order to increase suspension, impulsion and self carriage, however, is something exclusive to the sport of dressage. Dressage is not comfortable, it is not easy and it is certainly not the basis of all riding. Name to me another horse sport which wants the horse to be up in the contact having about 10lbs of weight in each rein, having the horse being so reactive that a flinch sends their hind legs flying and a shift in weight sends them almost completely sideways and wanting the horse to be on the absolute edge between control and freedom and expression of movement. Most pleasure riders want their horses to be easy to ride and that is the absolute antichrist of riding a good dressage test. One does not get 8s 9s and 10s for riding a subservient horse that is moving in a way which is easy to sit. I let a pleasure rider hop on my PSG horse and he was immediately flying sideways because the rider was not balanced in the saddle, that is dressage and it is the opposite of what a pleasure rider wants. A good upper level dressage horse is so sensitive that he dislikes being brushed, cannot be in certain blankets or handled by certain people and under saddle feels like a ticking bomb. Dressage is maintaining the sensitivity of the horse and increasing it to a point where they are balanced on the head of a pin. Pleasure riding is desensitizing the horse to the rider until it is "well behaved". The two are opposites and one is not the basis of the other.


http://www.horseforum.com/horse-riding/western-dressage-thoughts-144228/page10/#post1773521

I can admire dressage without wanting to ride dressage. Just as I can admire eventers without wanting to do it.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5IKb5Cu2ok&feature=youtube_gdata_player
this is dressage in the 60's.


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFjJhxK7SUY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
In 72


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
84

Different seat from today. Still the alignment, but without the split seat that is seen nowadays. 

Something to think about.....


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## deserthorsewoman (Sep 13, 2011)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPgB-uT_5bo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
not dressage, and please look at the seat. Its in slo mo, so very good to see.
He is in NEAR perfect alignment, even in a lope. He doesn't want the perfect alignment, different saddle and different purpose.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

First, I'm a huge Stacy Westfall fan as well. Have you guys seen the Ellen show that she was on? Hilarious seeing Ellen on a reining horse! 
Second, what have you instructors found to be helpful in your teaching? I think we've covered the potential behind lunge-line lessons, Vaulting, no-stirrup work. What else do you guys do to help your students?
A big one I have found for helping students sit the trot is relaxation techniques, for lack of a batter word. I guess that's just what I call it. I think I learned it in a Yoga class in college? Forgive me if this is a common technique in riding, I was never taught it in a riding setting. Basically, I lunge the student and starting from the top down, we isolate body parts. I tell them to inhale as the flex or scrunch that body part, and then relax it as they exhale. We do that top to bottom a couple times, and then we do the whole body flex and whole body relax. I have seen it transform bouncy riders into fluid equestrians. I think kids don't even realize they are tensing their muscles and that is the cause for their bouncing around in the saddle.


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## Tessa7707 (Sep 17, 2012)

First, I'm a huge Stacy Westfall fan as well. Have you guys seen the Ellen show that she was on? Hilarious seeing Ellen on a reining horse! 
Second, what have you instructors found to be helpful in your teaching? I think we've covered the potential behind lunge-line lessons, Vaulting, no-stirrup work. What else do you guys do to help your students?
A big one I have found for helping students sit the trot is relaxation techniques, for lack of a batter word. I guess that's just what I call it. I think I learned it in a Yoga class in college? Forgive me if this is a common technique in riding, I was never taught it in a riding setting. Basically, I lunge the student and starting from the top down, we isolate body parts. I tell them to inhale as the flex or scrunch that body part, and then relax it as they exhale. We do that top to bottom a couple times, and then we do the whole body flex and whole body relax. I have seen it transform bouncy riders into fluid equestrians. I think kids don't even realize they are tensing their muscles and that is the cause for their bouncing around in the saddle.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

When I teach sitting trot the thing I find works is a very old school technique actually. I tell the student to think about dropping all their weight in their seat bones like their bum weighs a thousand pounds and think of their ankles absorbing the impact. Then to open up their pelvis and almost pretend they are peddling a bike backwards. It seems to work well. When my students learn sitting trot I actually encourage them to lean back until they feel like they are leaning to far. The reason is I find as soon as someone starts sitting trot they want to pitch their entire body forward and go into fetal position. So if they think of leaning back with their shoulders square, their pelvis open and seat bones weighing a thousand pounds it seems to work.

Now I do not throw this all at them in one sentence. We do each individual step first. So they start by thinking of sinking their weight in their seat bones. We do a bit of trot, if they don't get it then I say think of peddling a bike backwards while sitting deep. Sometimes this works. Then I tell them to think of leaning back. And just keep building it from their. They almost always seem to get it by the time I have them picture peddling backwards. 

I take reins away when learning sitting trot as it is when they seem to want to balance on the reins the most.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKbqokuTzh8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> 84...


Thank you for the videos. I think we can at least agree that they show great riding. :wink:


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## Inga (Sep 11, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> When I teach sitting trot the thing I find works is a very old school technique actually. I tell the student to think about dropping all their weight in their seat bones like their bum weighs a thousand pounds and think of their ankles absorbing the impact. .


 
See, this is why I have always had such a well balanced seat. Not because I am extra talented but because my bum really does weigh a thousand pounds. ha ha Even when I was stick thin, my bum was my heaviest area. You know the words to that song, "Little in the middle but she's got much Back?" Well, that is me exactly. It pays off in some areas of life. :wink: ha ha

Sorry, couldn't help myself... carry on.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

NBEventer said:


> When I teach sitting trot the thing I find works is a very old school technique actually. I tell the student to think about dropping all their weight in their seat bones like their bum weighs a thousand pounds and think of their ankles absorbing the impact. Then to open up their pelvis and almost pretend they are peddling a bike backwards. It seems to work well. When my students learn sitting trot I actually encourage them to lean back until they feel like they are leaning to far. The reason is I find as soon as someone starts sitting trot they want to pitch their entire body forward and go into fetal position. So if they think of leaning back with their shoulders square, their pelvis open and seat bones weighing a thousand pounds it seems to work.
> 
> Now I do not throw this all at them in one sentence. We do each individual step first. So they start by thinking of sinking their weight in their seat bones. We do a bit of trot, if they don't get it then I say think of peddling a bike backwards while sitting deep. Sometimes this works. Then I tell them to think of leaning back. And just keep building it from their. They almost always seem to get it by the time I have them picture peddling backwards.
> 
> I take reins away when learning sitting trot as it is when they seem to want to balance on the reins the most.


 Before Health & safety kicked in they used to have bareback trotting races at gymkhanas and leaning back was the way to go if you wanted to win. 
Obviously you have to know a correct seat position but if that involves perching on top of a horse afraid to move a muscle, bones so tight they'd snap if someone moved them then you'll only ever be a passenger.
I like your description of 'the heavy bum', I try to think of myself sort of melting into the horse, you develop a deep seat then you feel every movement and even though you're relaxed you're actually totally prepared for every move they make so if they do spook sideways or leap forwards you're still sitting in the saddle and with them and not hitting the ground where they once were


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## OliviaMyee (Jul 31, 2012)

I agree with you that this "mass production" is happening ! I went to a riding school for a year where all we did nearly every sing lesson that costed 50$ AUS for 1 hour group lesson was jump 30-40 cm little jumps ! It was so boring ! OMG hundreds of dollars wasted ! Im glad i hardly went to that school after 1 year. I went back there to see if they were still really bad, and because my horse was injured, and there were riders there that had been in the same level for 2 YEARS !!!! Where still jumping the same hight maybe 5cm higher ? But it was practically the same teaching standards ! This is the closest riding school to the City in Melbourne (Aus) and a private lesson for 1 hour is nearly 100 $ !!! They are practically stealing !


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

deserthorsewoman said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5895K-Xjupk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
> This is to demonstrate how handy a horse can be, even a rather big Lusitano, when ridden with the classical/Iberian methods
> Off topic, I know, but I think bsms would enjoy that


I enjoyed it, will have to watch again, but I didn't see that horse gaping or resisting anywhere.


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