# It's this kind of stuff that I just don't understand...



## oh vair oh

If this thread is too controversial, the mods can lock it/delete it whenever they want.

Just saw that video recently going around and I still don't see the sense in this sort of "training technique", even as a WP trainer. If anyone can explain the mental and physical reasoning for trashing a horse's mouth in a positive light, then have at it. 

Now I admit, if I have a horse who I have been working with softening for a few years and he gets stubborn on me or ducks his head, I might pull up on the inside rein a couple times to get his attention back. But this sort of stuff is just sad. 

And the worst part is, everybody does it, but nobody ever comes out and says "to make a great futurity horse, you got to rip his mouth up and then rip his sides up". They sneak around the issue or hide in their training barns. Why don't more people come out and just call it like it is? 

I apologize if this turns into a big flame fest. I actually really want to make a documentary when I graduate about the "inside world" of western horse showing, and what exactly is going on.


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## QHriderKE

I've seen worse in my own yard.
Not that this is good.
Do enough digging and you'll find stuff like this anywhere.
It's awful and wrong, but it happens.
I honestly could give two craps if my horse has her head up in the air, not collected at all, but with a soft mouth and happy. At least I know I didn't force anything like this on her. 

I don't even know what that guy in trying to do...


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## oh vair oh

Yeah, I agree. I know I'm really not going to get much out of this thread, but it makes me feel better about what I do. I may not make the big bucks, or have a bunch of World Championships, but I'm proud of my methods even if they don't win. And then I feel 10x better if I ever do win against these people... Oh well.


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## QHriderKE

Yeah, there's nothing you can do about it but keep doing things the way they *should* be done. Even if your horse isn't the best.


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## nrhareiner

Ok so when does the abbuse start? I see a rider who starts out soft with his hands and progresses up a bit as the horse does not respond to what he is being asked to do. I would bet this is a younger horse or one that was never trained properly and needs a bit of work giving to the bit. He is not only asking with the reins but watch the guys legs. He is asking for the horse to soften with his legs also. Again I see nothing overly wrong with this. I would like to see him ask a bit softer for a bit longer but past that it is what it is.


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## QHriderKE

I'm not a fan of how he jerks on the horses face and pulls its chin right up to its chest, and continues to jerk. Ignore his feet and watch his hands. Then multiply that force by 3. Not very much fun.

And God only knows what kind of bit is in that horses mouth.


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## waresbear

If you or I jerked around a horse like this, yes, it's nonsense. However this is a trainer & upper echelon horses, it produces results, that horse will never seen a kill pen & is worth more money than anything we will ever own. Sorry but that's the facts. It's what it takes to get to the top, period.


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## QHriderKE

You do have a point, wares, but I still appreciate the guy that I watch train his horse and doesn't do that, and wins, much more than the guy I see "softening" his horse in that manner, and wins.


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## nrhareiner

QHriderKE said:


> I'm not a fan of how he jerks on the horses face and pulls its chin right up to its chest, and continues to jerk. Ignore his feet and watch his hands. Then multiply that force by 3. Not very much fun.
> 
> And God only knows what kind of bit is in that horses mouth.


 
First it does not matter if you are a fan or not. He is not being abbusive at all. You need to take it all in and the legs play a large role in what he is trying to accomplish with this horse. He is also at a show so it is fix it now or not at all before the class. Is this the best use of hands I have ever seen? No not in a long run. However what he is doing and what he is working on is what you will see with just about ever trainer. My horses do this and are worked this way. Once they are well finished it takes very little to get them to bridle up like that.


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## Tennessee

If that is what it takes to be a winner in reining, then I am glad I am not a part of that.


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## nrhareiner

It sure would be nice if people would check things out before they judge. This guy is a rookie reiner. This is his second horse. He has only been reining for a bit over 2 years. I would love to see how you all do with a reining horse at this level with only a few years of riding one. It is not at all as easy as it looks. So until you get more info then a 70 second video do not judge.


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## oh vair oh

I do appreciate your alternate opinion, nrhareiner, and your explanation.

The fact that he is a rookie does not impress me. I can only see that type of correction as a short-cut. And I agree, it is a method that people take that wins the big bucks and the big shows. As it shows in the video, he gets the correction and he gets it fast and the horse behaves and performs well.

However, it's simply not my cup of tea. I did not say it was abusive, and I think the rider does a good job of providing an adequate release afterward. I just would prefer to take two years of hold and release than a month of that. And I must admit, I'm not super sentimental to horses, I handle them fairly rough in my own opinion. I ride in spurs and a curb bit, I challenge my horses physically, and I don't win world championships (yet). It's not a technique I'll implement, just because it weighs better on my conscience to do it a different way.


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## oh vair oh

Also, I'm sorry I opened this can of worms... I really should learn to just post pretty pictures of my horses in my own la-la-land than get into this stuff, so I'm sorry. I really do dislike controversial issues.


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## QHriderKE

I've been to a lot of reined cow horse shows, rode with some of the trainers, watched them ride horses. I saw them do some correcting, and it wasn't like that video very much.

I havent trained a reining horse, but I have rode a couple, and they're awesome, so I have nothing against reining. 

My point is that there are better ways to get the same result, and this isn't one of them. I don't care if it's in the warmup pen at a show, or that he's a rookie. 

And I'm not one of those people, "Oooooooh don't hurt the pretty horsey!" 
The only time my hands get like that, is when a horse tries to bolt, buck, or run through my hands, and then I will get rough. I've handed out my fair share of attitude adjustments on the ground and in the saddle. 

I just don't really like watching what was going on in the video for the sake of winning. 
The problem with the show world these days is that there is an obsession with winning, not with having a reliable, comfortable horse. That's why we see 2 and 3 year olds crippled when they get older, because of the pressure to have a big name in futurity season.


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## nrhareiner

There is nothing wrong with posting this type of thing. It is a learning curve for all who want to learn this type of thing. Also this is most likely a good 2 years of training on this horse. When done properly this technique will produce a nice soft responsive horse. This guy is learning his timing and getting there. He is not perfect but again it is a learning curve and not something you pick up over night and some never do. This type of work does work well but when done incorrectly can be harsh.


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## nrhareiner

QHriderKE said:


> I've been to a lot of reined cow horse shows, rode with some of the trainers, watched them ride horses. I saw them do some correcting, and it wasn't like that video very much.
> 
> I havent trained a reining horse, but I have rode a couple, and they're awesome, so I have nothing against reining.
> 
> My point is that there are better ways to get the same result, and this isn't one of them. I don't care if it's in the warmup pen at a show, or that he's a rookie.
> 
> And I'm not one of those people, "Oooooooh don't hurt the pretty horsey!"
> The only time my hands get like that, is when a horse tries to bolt, buck, or run through my hands, and then I will get rough. I've handed out my fair share of attitude adjustments on the ground and in the saddle.
> 
> I just don't really like watching what was going on in the video for the sake of winning.
> The problem with the show world these days is that there is an obsession with winning, not with having a reliable, comfortable horse. That's why we see 2 and 3 year olds crippled when they get older, because of the pressure to have a big name in futurity season.


 
You are basing your entire opinion of a 70 second video of a rookie reiner with less then 3 years of reining experiance. Again when done correctly this technique works very well and is not at all abussive or harsh. When done wrong can be. So until you sit in that saddle on that horse on that day....


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## waresbear

Off topic here, but that rider looked to be in his 60's to me, (sagging elbows & chest & an elderly posture)? Only 3 years into it?


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## nrhareiner

It is not at all uncommon for older people to get into reining. It is not a cheap sport to get into and it takes time to get to the point to have that type of disposible income to get a good finished reining horse. This is why you see the Prime time reiners class so there are more classes for people to show in.


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## waresbear

Right on! I have something to look forward to!


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## mildot

There is no way this can be justified as a viable training technique.

The end does not justify the means. Unless you are in a hurry, I guess.


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## SorrelHorse

I do not believe he used his hands as I would have but it certainly isn't what I call "abuse".

Hell I could probably watch every rider at the World Equestrian Games and find SOMETHING I could ***** incessantly about. Then I could post a video about it on a forum if I wanted so everyone else could ***** about it with me! Then suddenly that rider becomes unpopular with a whole bunch of pixel people and is dubbed 'abusive'. (OP, not saying you're bitching, just bringing up a point)

When you guys were learning to ride your sport how many things did you do wrong? Were you all born winners? Were you all born with the infinite knowledge of how EXACTLY to use your hands and when exactly to use them? Were you all instantly good at developing a horse up into the bridle? If you say you were then you're lying.

I don't believe this man uses his hands perfectly but it is not abusive. The horse's mouth isn't bleeding, his jaw didn't detach from his face, his neck didn't break, and I bet none of his teeth fell out either! :lol:


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## mildot

SorrelHorse said:


> When you guys were learning to ride your sport how many things did you do wrong?


Please do not insult our collective intelligence by trying to even insinuate that what we saw on that video was done accidentally or out of ignorance.


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## SorrelHorse

mildot said:


> Please do not insult our collective intelligence by trying to even insinuate that what we saw on that video was done accidentally or out of ignorance.


I fail to see the insult you seem to think I have pushed upon you.

When all of us were learning to ride whatever sport we chose we used methods that we probably would not have used after we learned the proper way. If he did not do this out of ignorance for lack of knowledge of a better method, are you saying he used that method to be deliberately "abusive" (As the video title says) to the horse?


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## nrhareiner

mildot said:


> Please do not insult our collective intelligence by trying to even insinuate that what we saw on that video was done accidentally or out of ignorance.


 
So you are a mind reader? You know everything that you need to know that went on that day on that horse with that rider from a 70 second video? Then you are better then I. I am not going to judge that person. If that was Shawn then maybe but then I would want to know why he was doing what he was doing. 

Based on what I see and what I know from a lot of years riding reining horses I have a fairly good idea of the problems this guy was having with this horse. Is he the lightest handed person I have ever seen on a horse? No but he is not by any means the harshed haned person either.

My problem with all this is that this video was taken about 2 months ago. NRHA has policies on place for this type of thing. If the person who posted this on UTube thinks this was so bad then why did they not go to the show secritarie that day and show them or send it to NRHA??


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## CLaPorte432

I see much worse then that at my local speed shows. People that think they are "big wigs" run their horses into a barrel and then haul on the horses mouth, backing it 30 feet and jerking on the mouth VERY HARD back and forth on each side of the bit. These are no light bits either, they are harsher gag bits with rawhide nosebands. Some horses also have a "war bonnet" or cable tiedown which is in my opinion, the harshest tiedown ever made. It's steel cabel covered in a plastic overlay for crimeny's sake and when they jerk on the horses mouth, their head snaps up.

There's nothing you can do but be disgusted by those types of people. This particular rider isn't the softest handed by any means, but given the information that nrhareiner gave about his inexperience in reining horses, I can see where it stems from. Would I treat my horses like that? No, I don't need to. They've been given a proper foundation that allows me not to do that. I have very soft hands as well. But, I do not consider that "abuse" by any means. Like I said, I've seen much much worse. This particular horse seems to be responding very well actually.


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## mildot

SorrelHorse said:


> are you saying he used that method to be deliberately "abusive" (As the video title says) to the horse?


Yes I am


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## mildot

nrhareiner said:


> So you are a mind reader? You know everything that you need to know that went on that day on that horse with that rider from a 70 second video? Then you are better then I. I am not going to judge that person. If that was Shawn then maybe but then I would want to know why he was doing what he was doing.
> 
> Based on what I see and what I know from a lot of years riding reining horses I have a fairly good idea of the problems this guy was having with this horse. Is he the lightest handed person I have ever seen on a horse? No but he is not by any means the harshed haned person either.
> 
> My problem with all this is that this video was taken about 2 months ago. NRHA has policies on place for this type of thing. If the person who posted this on UTube thinks this was so bad then why did they not go to the show secritarie that day and show them or send it to NRHA??


I'm not going to debate this any more. It is obvious that our definitions of acceptable treatment of a horse differ far too much.

I'm just happy to not be associated with anything resembling a group of people who think yanking on a horse's mouth is an acceptable training or correction technique.


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## SorrelHorse

I wouldn't even remotely call that "yanking" :roll:

Certainly was far from SOFT contact, but that is not by ANY means "yanking".


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## QHriderKE

CLaPorte432 said:


> I see much worse then that at my local speed shows. People that think they are "big wigs" run their horses into a barrel and then haul on the horses mouth, backing it 30 feet and jerking on the mouth VERY HARD back and forth on each side of the bit. These are no light bits either, they are harsher gag bits with rawhide nosebands. Some horses also have a "war bonnet" or cable tiedown which is in my opinion, the harshest tiedown ever made. It's steel cabel covered in a plastic overlay for crimeny's sake and when they jerk on the horses mouth, their head snaps up.


I've seen that stuff too... except in the ranching community with all kinds of bits. 

My dad, just yesterday, was riding his mare in a hack, and on the sides of her face where the hack makes contact, the hair was beginning to be rubbed off. 

It's very wrong, I've tried talking to him, my mom has tried, but it's just how he wants it, so whatever. I gave up, and made a rule that he can't touch my horses.


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## trailhorserider

SorrelHorse said:


> I wouldn't even remotely call that "yanking" :roll:
> 
> Certainly was far from SOFT contact, but that is not by ANY means "yanking".


It looked like yanking to me. It looked very harsh to me. I would never want to intentionally do that to a horse. Have I made mistakes? Sure. Do I occasionally catch one of my horse in the mouth if they trip or spook, yes. Do I on purpose jerk their chin to their chest? No way! I guess that's why I trail ride. I can't imagine what that horse was doing that so justified jerking on it's face like that. That would be harsh even in a simple snaffle.

I have always seen western riders "bump" the bit. A pull and release. This guy is see-sawing in a jerky fashion. I didn't think see-sawing was ever acceptable technique. Is it? And all this time I've just been fluttering the reins with my fingers to ask them to soften up. 

I guess that explains why a lot of people seem to think curb bits are harsh. Well, YEAH, if you use them like that they are. :shock:


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## RunJumpRide

Maybe not as far as abuse, but this is what makes unhappy horses. :-(


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## nrhareiner

Keep in mind you're gudgeing a technique by a person with limited experience who is doing poorly. Remember your judging something off a 70 sec.clip posted on youtube with no reference before or after
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

I tried watching the video several times, my internet is slow so the video is choppy for me.

If they showed a longer video showing the whole warm-up/schooling session I think it would be easier to evaluate. I will say the horse is obviously not scared. I am not condoning the practice of knocking the face down but I do it differently and it is way more effective _for me_. I prefer to hold the face and use my legs. If that horse is leaning on the bit it usually means he is stuck out or stiff somewhere behind the bit. I will bump one off if he gets a little pushy when I drive him over but I have never been a user of see-sawing.


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## nrhareiner

See I do not THINK he ment to actually see-saw with the bit. As that is not correct. However what he trying to do is valid and works well. He is just to quick with his hands past the first few seconds and is doing a bit too much. I can see in the horses turns why he THINKS he needs to be doing this. However since I can not see the horses feet I can only go on what little I can see.


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## mildot

I know how to ASK a horse to accept the bit. And even with a snaffle and direct contact the only hand action involved is a momentary tightening of the fist AFTER the horse goes in front of the legs. There is more finesse to it than that, but that's the general idea behind a half halt.

With a curb, whose leverage amplifies anything you with your hands, the hands should do even less.

The tool on top of that horse is doing nothing that in any way shape or form can be construed as driving the horse into the bit so that the horse learns to accept the bit.

All I see is brutality to FORCE the horse into that prized headset than so many in the western show world seem to have to have.

The horse is clearly in distress, gaping its mouth open and avoiding contact first behind the vertical and then above.

I don't give a **** what went on before or after. Some things are wrong prima facie and need no other explanation.


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## mildot

And if what this guy is doing is just "slightly" wrong, then reining does not belong alongside other legitimate equine sports under the FEI.


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## CLaPorte432

mildot said:


> And if what this guy is doing is just "slightly" wrong, then reining does not belong alongside other legitimate equine sports under the FEI.


Well thats just a load of crap. Your telling me that EVERY trainer in FEI level sports has NEVER done anything similar to this to get a horse to respond. How can you make such a bold statement when you have no idea what goes on behind the scenes at a trainers barn? There are many things i have seen in show jumping and dressage that are completely unacceptable in my opinion and are far worse then this. Get off your high horse and realize that there are trainers, even at top level, that will cheat their way through training to get the desired response.

This particular trainer is green in the reining world. Not every reining trainer treats horses like this.

And i guarantee your not prefect. Noone is.


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## mildot

CLaPorte432 said:


> Well thats just a load of crap. Your telling me that EVERY trainer in FEI level sports has NEVER done anything similar to this to get a horse to respond. How can you make such a bold statement when you have no idea what goes on behind the scenes at a trainers barn? There are many things i have seen in show jumping and dressage that are completely unacceptable in my opinion and are far worse then this. Get off your high horse and realize that there are trainers, even at top level, that will cheat their way through training to get the desired response.
> 
> This particular trainer is green in the reining world. Not every reining trainer treats horses like this.
> 
> And i guarantee your not prefect. Noone is.


A) Reading between the lines of nrhareiner's posts leads me to believe that what this guy is doing is considered by reiners to be just "slightly" wrong. There is certainly no flat out condemnation of the brutality I saw there.

B) What goes on behind someone's barn is not the issue. The issue is what a discipline's governing body will accept. What I saw there, as well as many other abusive practices, is not acceptable to the FEI or USEF.


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## cowboy bowhunter

mildot said:


> A) Reading between the lines of nrhareiner's posts leads me to believe that what this guy is doing is considered by reiners to be just "slightly" wrong. There is certainly no flat out condemnation of the brutality I saw there.
> 
> B) What goes on behind someone's barn is not the issue. The issue is what a discipline's governing body will accept. What I saw there, as well as many other abusive practices, is not acceptable to the FEI or USEF.


Was this at a show, or was this at at training barn? This is a short clip. I bet jumpers to just as bad of stuff. And there cant be people watching every part of a show or arenas or anything. I hate is when people assume just because one person everyone does stuff wrong.


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## COWCHICK77

nrhareiner said:


> See I do not THINK he ment to actually see-saw with the bit. As that is not correct. However what he trying to do is valid and works well. He is just to quick with his hands past the first few seconds and is doing a bit too much. I can see in the horses turns why he THINKS he needs to be doing this. However since I can not see the horses feet I can only go on what little I can see.



The quickness of his hands and the see-sawing is what makes it look ugly.

Just curious if we are seeing the same thing....

To me the horse looks like he leaning on the bit, and getting heavy and a little sprawled out in the front. Like you said, can't see his feet and the other horses crossing in front of the camera, so it's hard to tell. He doesn't appear to be planting his his pivot foot(I realize they can pick it up and put it down) but he almost looks like he might be traveling just a tad or swapping ends a little. One direction is worse than the other, can't remember which...
What do you see?


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## mildot

cowboy bowhunter said:


> Was this at a show, or was this at at training barn? This is a short clip. I bet jumpers to just as bad of stuff. And there cant be people watching every part of a show or arenas or anything. I hate is when people assume just because one person everyone does stuff wrong.


I see the points I made flew right over your head.


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## SorrelHorse

Mildot honey, you clearly don't agree with us and are not going to change our opinion just as it's plainly obvious we can do nothing to change your mind either. Perhaps it is best if we just stop argueing. Taking stabs at reining and stabs at us is doing nothing for you nor us.


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## mildot

COWCHICK77 said:


> The quickness of his hands and the see-sawing is what makes it look ugly.


The horse's evasion to such harsh treatment is what really makes it look ugly.


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## SorrelHorse

If you're that against it maybe you should contact the rider or the NRHA instead of complaining on a forum....


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## nrhareiner

First this guy *IS NOT A TRAINER*!! He is no different then any one of us. He is a guy who has a nice reiner who is learning how to maintain the horse. He may or may not even have a trainer he is working with. You just do not know so do not judge until you have sat in that saddle.


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## nrhareiner

COWCHICK77 said:


> The quickness of his hands and the see-sawing is what makes it look ugly.
> 
> Just curious if we are seeing the same thing....
> 
> To me the horse looks like he leaning on the bit, and getting heavy and a little sprawled out in the front. Like you said, can't see his feet and the other horses crossing in front of the camera, so it's hard to tell. He doesn't appear to be planting his his pivot foot(I realize they can pick it up and put it down) but he almost looks like he might be traveling just a tad or swapping ends a little. One direction is worse than the other, can't remember which...
> What do you see?


Ya this is just part of what I am seeing. But again I can not see the whole horse. It also looks like the horse is getting suck in the front end so if this is true and again I can not see the horses feet so I can only go on what I am seeing in the shoulder. To free up the front end you need to bridle the horse up flex him at the pole which is what he is trying to do. There are a few other things that he could have tried and may have but since all we see is 70 seconds it is hard to say what he tried before and after this.


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## mildot

nrhareiner said:


> He is no different then any one of us.


I beg to differ. People with empathy know better than to deliberately inflict pain on an animal. One need not be a trainer or expert horseman to understand that.


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## Derry girl

Firstly I dont know alot about reining only what I see on the web and read on here, so Iam not going to say this is or isnt how it should be done.. but in my own personal opinion would you want someone yanking at your mouth like that?
I realise in every form of horseriding theres different training methods, but considering he is using what looks like a gag bit, which are already a very sharp bit I do think hes yanking and pulling a bit to much...If I done that to any of my horses it would probably leave them with a really hard mouth or just sour them ... in my opinion.


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## mildot

I see now that this kind of treatment is considered acceptable. With that I am gone.


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## bsms

Any competitive horse sport has people who either screw up, or push too hard in order to win. The FEI is not flawless. There are ample videos available of dressage and jump riders acting either stupidly or maliciously. And maybe sometimes they actually know what they are doing & why - I find it a bit awkward to critique world level performers...










Abusive? I prefer to leave the term for something more harmful to the horse. And in honesty, someone watching MY riding could find fault with me. They might even find times where I've lost my temper or behaved stupidly. But then, I may be one of the few who wasn't born a natural horseman...and who sometimes needs to count on the forgiving nature of most horses.


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## SorrelHorse

And we're back to the YANKING debate.....

Unsoftly pulling on the reins? Yes. Hard hands? Yes. Uneccessary pulling? Yes. Yanking? *NO*

Is the horse's mouth bloody? Is his tongue cut up? Is he developing sores? I swear to god if any of you say yes I will throw my hands up on this thread since none of you have actually seen inside that horse's mouth. Yanking would be actual drastic damage. When I get home I will find a video of a horse ACTUALLY being yanked on so you can compare.


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## Derry girl

SorrelHorse said:


> And we're back to the YANKING debate.....


Is that in reaction to my post?

Throw your hands up if you want, everyones got different ways of saying things, where Iam from people would call that yanking.


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## bsms

mildot said:


> ...All I see is brutality to FORCE the horse into that prized headset than so many in the western show world seem to have to have...


Yep. ONLY in western riding does anyone prize a 'headset' - a word I'd love to see eliminated from the world. Never happens, tho, if the person sits on an English saddle...arrggghhhhh :evil:


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## nrhareiner

mildot said:


> The horse's evasion to such harsh treatment is what really makes it look ugly.


 
First if this was such harsh treatment then there would have been evidence on the horses mouth and the horse would have been DQed. So if he was not then it must not have been that harsh.

Next if you think this is such a harsh and bad treatment of the horse the NRHA has policies in place to address this. This is the big problem I have with this whole video. It is about 2 months old and is now just being posted on UTube. Why was it not taken to the judges at the show or to the office and shown to them? Why was it not forwarded to NRHA for them to review. I know for the fact that NRHA will suspend a person if they feel they are being abussive to a horse at a show.


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## SorrelHorse

Thank you nrhareiner and bsms.

I guarantee you if this person had gone in an english saddle to a dressage show he would be complimented on his horse's lovely headset and frame....It's sick. I think I've pretty much exhausted my civility on the topic. I may not think its abuse but the bias and attitude is just out of the water.


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## nrhareiner

There is no head set on reining. You will see horses heads at all levels that win. This has NOTHING to do with head set but what he is trying to do is free up the front end of the horse in the turn. I am not going to go into all the fundamentals of what he is trying to do as it would be long and until you actuall sit a reiner and feel the differeance you would have a hard time visualizing it.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

SorrelHorse said:


> Thank you nrhareiner and bsms.
> 
> I guarantee you if this person had gone in an english saddle to a dressage show he would be complimented on his horse's lovely headset and frame....It's sick. I think I've pretty much exhausted my civility on the topic. I may not think its abuse but the bias and attitude is just out of the water.



Seriously?? Have you ever BEEN to a dressage show?? Please don't bash my sport and discipline just because someone decided to post a video of an ammy in yours and call it abuse.

I was just WAITING for dressage and Rolkur to get pulled into this...


*AS A REMINDER of the forum's conscious etiquette policy PLEASE do not bash other disciplines. This includes dressage and whatever you might think goes on at a dressage horse show. Please and thank you.*


The orig video IMO is just some guy that needs a better trainer but is far from abusive.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> Seriously?? Have you ever BEEN to a dressage show?? Please don't bash my sport and discipline just because someone decided to post a video of an ammy in yours and call it abuse.
> 
> I was just WAITING for dressage and Rolkur to get pulled into this...


Agreed with anebel, I'm not sure what dressage show YOU have been to, but in the ones around here, that "frame" would not be considered lovely. Behind the bit and too low for dressage... yes it does remind me of "Rolkur", but I think if you ask 99% of the dressage folks on here their take of that training practice, they'd share their distaste of it.


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## equiniphile

Abusive? No. Far from it. I see a rookie who is trying to rock his horse back on his hocks for the spin, but his limited experience isn't achieving the results he wants. He could be softer with his hands, he could use his seat and legs more to rock the horse back on his haunches, but he releases when the horse responds and gets progressively harsher when he doesn't get the results he wants. This is NOT abuse.


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## SorrelHorse

Anebel you know very well I respect good dressage highly, I've ridden it myself, (Not my cup of tea and nothing serious but we did fairly well) but for Christ's sake, you have to admit some of that is out there. 

Maybe for you guys where you have good riders and good shows it wouldn't be considered lovely, but you haven't seen my area. My area actually disturbs me. I went to watch a dressage show and actually had to turn around and leave before I saw any of the good riders. Since then I've found a few. I never said the entirety of the dressage discipline is like that, just like not all reining is. It was to make a point, not a stab.


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## bsms

From my perspective, the point is that there are folks in ALL sports who either don't know what they are doing, or who do know. The latter may use techniques that aren't pretty, but that isn't the same as abusive. I'm not a fan of rollkur, but I'm hardly in a position to lecture world champions on how to train horses...

I have a gelding who was abused. He had holes spurred thru his skin on both sides, leaving open wounds about 2-3" across. THAT was abuse. But pulling on a horse's mouth?

This picture was taken on my first ride with Cowboy. He had galloped 10-12 laps without stopping. He hadn't responded to anything milder...so I pulled very firm and held it. The moment he stopped, I released. He bolted again, and we repeated. After 4-5 times, he decided to stop with gentle pressure.

But the first stop wasn't pretty. Was there a better way to teach him? Maybe. I'm not the end-all of horse training...but I was there, and my daughter-in-law had just needed to run him into a fence to stop him. And the following day, he stopped properly for her about 90% of the time. Fast forward 4 months, and he is now my wife's favorite horse. And he's the only horse that I regularly ride with an English saddle. But this picture makes me look like a complete jerk. A 60" video wouldn't have covered me with glory, either...


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## ~*~anebel~*~

SorrelHorse said:


> Anebel you know very well I respect good dressage highly, I've ridden it myself, (Not my cup of tea and nothing serious but we did fairly well) but for Christ's sake, you have to admit some of that is out there.
> 
> Maybe for you guys where you have good riders and good shows it wouldn't be considered lovely, but you haven't seen my area. My area actually disturbs me. I went to watch a dressage show and actually had to turn around and leave before I saw any of the good riders. Since then I've found a few. I never said the entirety of the dressage discipline is like that, just like not all reining is. It was to make a point, not a stab.



I have seen a dressage show in Oregon, actually.

You're calling dressage amateur idiots worse than reining amateur idiots?? At least we don't give them curb bits!!!

And yes, it was a stab, I'm sorry. I have seen dressage stewards excuse people from the warm up ring for less than what the guy in OP's video was doing. You did insinuate that attendance at any dressage event would make that kind of jerking the face acceptable. Which it is not. Especially not an international event and especially not in Cali/Fla/European circuits. Over here on the NW coast and over into N central we get a lot of the idiot yahoos, but the more FEI attention this part of NA is getting, the better the riding and stewarding is getting. I would not expect that anyone doing that amount of jerking would be tolerated at a dressage show.

I don't say anything about the quality of riders at reining shows (of which I have attended two) and I expect the same from others about my sport. It's common courtesy.


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## cowboy bowhunter

mildot said:


> I see the points I made flew right over your head.


Yup you wear blinders in your world and you think english is better the western. I see. You see what you want and only see the bad in others and how they train not how your trainers train. I see you points.


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## SorrelHorse

Anebel I did not come here to argue about dressage (YET AGAIN) with you. I've already stated my respect of the sport and my respect for you. I'm sorry if you misinterpretted my comment but whatever you are taking offense to I assure you I did not mean it that away. Bsms has been stating my opinion wonderfully.


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## ~*~anebel~*~

SorrelHorse said:


> Anebel I did not come here to argue about dressage (YET AGAIN) with you. I've already stated my respect of the sport and my respect for you. I'm sorry if you misinterpretted my comment but whatever you are taking offense to I assure you I did not mean it that away. Bsms has been stating my opinion wonderfully.


Cool so don't mention dressage when someone posts a vid of a bad rider, and I then I won't even have to post.. k? I was not the one that said the word "dressage" first in this thread...

I also happen to agree with bsms on most things, so I don't know why there is an issue.


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## SorrelHorse

You taking offense to the dressage comment is no different than my reaction to the comments on reining. I do not see where the issue lies either. The point I only try to make is the good and bad of both of them.....But okay.


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## farmpony84

oh vair oh said:


> I apologize if this turns into a big flame fest. *I actually really want to make a documentary when I graduate about the "inside world" of western horse showing, and what exactly is going on.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> I think that in order to make a documentary you need to know what you are talking about, which means you need to study the discipline, maybe even participate. As for the last bolded statement. I think your documentary should include any and all show/competition related disciplines because you can find ugly anywhere you look. As for the abuse. I'm having a hard time getting the video to load but so far, I haven't seen it. Going back to look now. This statement just irritated me badly so I felt the need to respond.


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## QHriderKE

Maybe I should video my dad riding his 4 year old so you can all argue about that. I'll even give you before and after details, I bet there will still be an argument.... first, about spurs, next about heavy-handedness, and then about hackamores, and then somehow you'll probably bring team roping and show jumping into it.... and it will just keep going.
and going
and going.
and going.
and going.


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## Jacksmama

It was stated earlier in the thread that the rider was attempting a method that actually works quite well, just making a huge mess of it. Could someone please explain to me the method as it should be performed and what the goal is? I am COMPLETELY ignorant about reining so have no idea lol. 

I don't think the video was outright abuse, as in beating the horse with a 2 x 4 or snubbing its nose to a post for days with no food or water. It IS rough IMO, if I were EVER that heavy handed I'm pretty sure my instructor would have jerked me off the horse and spanked my a**, lol. I was taught to strive for very subtle cues, almost invisible communication with my horse, which since I know nothing about reining could be the ultimate goal here too, and the rider is just absolutely abysmal lol. 

I am not going to bash any discipline, hell I ride gaited horses and we ALL know how rough some people are on gaited horses. What I am gonna bash is someone that climbed in the saddle and got in over their head when they obviously weren't ready. This is a perfect example of why anyone that wants to compete in a discipline like this NEEDS to have a firm grip on basic equitation and then find a trainer to teach them the proper way to progress in their chosen sport.


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## nrhareiner

Ok since this was asked I will try and explane with out putting a novel down here.

First lets talk about what a turn it. It is a forward 360degree turn on the inside rear foot. I do not like to call it a pivot foot as that leads you to think that the foot can not move from that spot like in Basketball. This is not true. The horse can pick it up and put it back down you just do not want that foot to "Travel". The frond end MUST be elevated and the front legs cross over in front of the other.

Now lets brake this down. The horse needs to be back over its hocks. With it shoulders up free and loos. The horse also needs to be able to lift its rib cage and move every inch of its body. Now how do you get this? There are many ways to get a horse doing this. However every single one of them start with a horse who can except contact with the bit and bridle up. Doing so all the way to the chect exagerates every single one of the things I have listed. By rocking his nose back and forth as he is bridled up with help free up the shoulder.

A horse who is light and excepting of the bit and being bridled up will do this with little resitance and with light cue of the reins. However lets face it not every horse is light in the bridle and not everyones hands are soft and quiet. This takes a lot of time practice and feel. This guy needs to keep working on all of this. He is heavy handed asking too much too fast for too long. At the end of the day you should be able to just about brake your horse in 1/2 at all gaits. I know several of mine can and well Te has a very hard time as he has 6 fused vertibre in his pole so he has a very hard time with this and it shows in his turns and stops as he can not flex like this.

At the end of the day when done correctly and light it frees up the shoulder and sits the horse back on the hocks and lifts the rib cage.


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## trailhorserider

I'm not wanting to bash any discipline. I'm not saying this is the way reining riders or dressage riders or trail riders or what-have-you ride. I don't think this is a problem with a specific discipline.

I just can't believe the guys hands! I thought maybe I was being too sensitive so I watched it again. I still think it's very harsh. 

Sometimes we have to pull on the bit more than we would like. Sometimes I have to pull on my mare if we are cantering and she gets strong and I want to slow her up. I guess what really shocks me about this guy is the see-sawing jerky movements. I would never intentionally jerk on a horse like that. (Can I call it jerking if not yanking?) And just because it occurs in all disciplines doesn't make it good horsemanship. 

I really don't think it matters what happened a minute before or a minute after this video. Unless the horse just tried to kill this guy there is no excuse for it. He has no softness to his hands. Could he do an alternating pull and release a little slower and still get the same effect? The horse has it's nose to it's chest a couple of times. Just were else is he supposed to go? 

I don't know. Maybe it is acceptable and I am just rainbows and butterflies. But so many people on this forum area always preaching "snaffle snaffle snaffle" like anyone who uses a curb is cruel. And heaven forbid you use a broken curb like a tom thumb. Blasphemy!!! And yet this type of hand movement is acceptable? I just don't get it! I would rather use a tom thumb softly than do what that guy is doing in ANY bit, even a snaffle.

Thank you nrhareiner for keeping your cool and trying to explain things to us.


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## nrhareiner

I agree the riders hands are not as soft as I would like to see. However without seeing the before and after of this clip which was all of 70sec long you do not know what if this is an escalation or a constant thing from beginning to end. My question would be did he start out this harsh or did he start out light with no response and worked up to this point I guess without seeing more than what was shown here you don't know, it looks like he accomplised what he wanted and walked off nice quiet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

trailhorserider said:


> I'm not wanting to bash any discipline. I'm not saying this is the way reining riders or dressage riders or trail riders or what-have-you ride. I don't think this is a problem with a specific discipline.
> 
> I just can't believe the guys hands! I thought maybe I was being too sensitive so I watched it again. I still think it's very harsh.
> 
> Sometimes we have to pull on the bit more than we would like. Sometimes I have to pull on my mare if we are cantering and she gets strong and I want to slow her up. I guess what really shocks me about this guy is the see-sawing jerky movements. I would never intentionally jerk on a horse like that. (Can I call it jerking if not yanking?) And just because it occurs in all disciplines doesn't make it good horsemanship.
> 
> I really don't think it matters what happened a minute before or a minute after this video. Unless the horse just tried to kill this guy there is no excuse for it. He has no softness to his hands. Could he do an alternating pull and release a little slower and still get the same effect? The horse has it's nose to it's chest a couple of times. Just were else is he supposed to go?
> 
> I don't know. Maybe it is acceptable and I am just rainbows and butterflies. But so many people on this forum area always preaching "snaffle snaffle snaffle" like anyone who uses a curb is cruel. And heaven forbid you use a broken curb like a tom thumb. Blasphemy!!! And yet this type of hand movement is acceptable? I just don't get it! I would rather use a tom thumb softly than do what that guy is doing in ANY bit, even a snaffle.
> 
> Thank you nrhareiner for keeping your cool and trying to explain things to us.


I have to agree with this...especially with a curb bit in its mouth, I don't see this as reasonable in any way. If I even did that to my horse with a SNAFFLE in her mouth my trainer would kick my behind!! 

I will say that I know nothing about Reining, so maybe this is normal behavior, maybe not, but I certainly hope not.


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## muumi

I, too, watched this again to see if I was too sensitive first time round. It was worse second time around. That is some serious yanking...

I don't know why everyone is so offended by this though, unless you are this particular rider, there is nothing wrong with saying this is harsh treatment, even if you are a reiner, and even if this is a valid form of training (or a perversion thereof). It is not a generalisation of the sport at all to discuss this clip, however it may be a generalisation of this person's riding style. No need for anyone here to feel personally attacked, or that their discipline is personally attacked. We are all adults here, hopefully, even the teenagers among us... in a manner of speaking.

I can see how this technique (correctly) can be a way of loosening up the horse, as nrhareiner explained, but this PARTICULAR man was yanking pretty **** hard. The horse seemed to brace its entire body as if in pain, and the gaping of the mouth and sticking out of the tongue also seemed to indicate an evasion of pain.

Not ABUSE, but very very bad horsemanship.

My opinion though, and who cares about that.

Carry on.


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## bsms

nrhareiner said:


> ...My question would be did he start out this harsh or did he start out light with no response and worked up to this point...


This.

If you want a horse to start trotting, for example, you run thru a sequence: kiss, very light squeeze, a bit more squeeze, light bump, firm bump, bit of heel, kick, hard kick, maybe a crop. You go thru the sequence EVERY time, even if you think the horse won't go without a crop.

The HORSE gets to decide when he starts trotting, but if you go thru the sequence, eventually the horse will decide that a firm bump is better than a smack from a crop - and now he's moving lighter. With time, the horse will decide to trot at a kiss or very light squeeze.

Sometimes you have to go where you don't want to go in order to teach the horse not to go there. We can't make a horse do anything. We can give the horse a series of options, and let the horse decide to behave.

If the horse walks off while you are mounting, do you accept it? Or do you make the horse work? With my horses, if they move when I mount, they get to practice backing up and then I mount again. If they move again, they get to back up more. Eventually, the horse decides it is easier to stand still. The 2 horses I've owned a while stand still. The new horse (Cowboy) will sometimes still walk off. He is an excellent horse, but he has bad habits from being a lesson horse.

But if you took a short video of me backing up a horse that had, prior to the video, walked off at mounting, then I'd look like a total jerk.

Maybe the guy in the video WAS being a total jerk. I'm probably the only one on the forum who has ever lost his temper and acted badly toward a horse. And maybe the guy treats horses like that all the time. I have no way of knowing. But if he IS a total jerk, then he should be reported, because the reining folks don't want horses to be abused either. If a person IS abusing a reining horse, then take it to the right people and he'll be an EX-reiner.


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## nrhareiner

I do not think anyone here is saying that this guy in the clip that you do see is heavy handed but that is not abbuse and if he marked the horse he WILL get DQed when he has to drop bit. My trainer is very good and is by no means heavy handed and yet I have lost over $1500 in earnings b/c he has marked my horses over the years. It happens. You learn from it and move on. Same with this guy. I hope if he has a trainer that the trainer saw what was going on and gave him some help. If he does not have a trainer I would hope that anouther trainer or reiner would give him some help.


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## Jacksmama

Ah! Thank you very much nrhareiner! You explained that very well!


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## mildot

bsms said:


> This.
> 
> If you want a horse to start trotting, for example, you run thru a sequence: kiss, very light squeeze, a bit more squeeze, light bump, firm bump, bit of heel, kick, hard kick, maybe a crop. You go thru the sequence EVERY time, even if you think the horse won't go without a crop.
> 
> The HORSE gets to decide when he starts trotting, but if you go thru the sequence, eventually the horse will decide that a firm bump is better than a smack from a crop - and now he's moving lighter. With time, the horse will decide to trot at a kiss or very light squeeze.


At some point the escalation of aids needs to stop since past that point they just become brutality.

This guy passed the point and kept on running.


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## mildot

This thread has been an eye opener. 

I certainly now know of a few people whom I would never let near a horse of mine, based on their opinion of this type of "horsemanship".


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## nrhareiner

You are more then welcome to you opinion. However at the end of the day I would rather have to be a bit on the harsh side one time then pick on them for a long time. 

You see this a lot with stallions. I see so many people picking on them to get them to mind. I do not pick. I HIT and hit hard. I would rather hit him ONE time then pick on him 10 times. This is no different. Again this guy is no where near where I would like to see him in what he is doing however again we do not know if this started at this point or escalated to this point. The horse was "stuck" So how do you get a horse un stuck? How to do you get a horse light to aids? As some point it will be a bit on the harsh side but at the end of the day is should be a very light aid. Which with reiners is exactly what is needed. 

My reiners are all very very very very very light with their aids. However they did not start out like that. It takes time and work and more then anything the correct timing. This timing takes a lot of time to develep. 

Mildot. How is your feel? How long did it take you to develop the feel? What your horse considers light I bet mine would not and what mine consider light I bet Shawns horses would not. Each rider does not just start out with light hands and the feel needed. It takes time and work.


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## bsms

mildot said:


> ...This guy passed the point and kept on running.


Hard to say based on 70". Maybe he did, or maybe not. It also depends on the horse. Cowboy, like a lot of lesson horses, is pretty hard-mouthed. With time, he is softening, but that is in a normal situation. If he decides to be a pain, then he is very hard mouthed.

With my other two horses, pinkie pressure is about all it takes on the reins. Even when they get excited, a pinkie of pressure as each shoulder goes forward, and in a few strides they will respond. But when Cowboy gets excited, he switches from wrist pressure to full arm pressure.

There are a lot of things we don't know from the video, including the horse's personality and background.

Like most on the thread, I'm not saying I admire the way the guy is handling things. I ride with a snaffle or rope halter, and my goal for all of my horses is to get to where reins are rarely used. For me, normal riding includes slack in the reins, unlike the English approach of contact.

However, I'm not willing to jump in the guy's chili without knowing a lot more. Nor am I willing to condemn a sport (reining) based on a short video.


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## franknbeans

I am a beginning reiner, certainly far from where NRHA is....but, here goes. I have a couple of questions/observations and statements. NRHA-feel free to correct me.....
First, some of you seem to think that "snaffles" are somehow the magic tool for being gentle. They are JUST as bad in the wrong hands, as is any bit. THe traditional jointed snaffles have a "lovely" nutcracker action when even pulled on gently with both hands. Some of these same folks seem to think that all "curbs" are created equal. There are curbs that are jointed, just so that you can pick up a shoulder of needed. It may not be that this is a traditional solid curb like I think some of you are picturing. We cannot see the part that is in the horses mouth, so we cannot guess. There are also horses who stick their tongues out, regardless of bit, no bit etc.

AS NRHA has said, we are only seeing a snippet of the entire picture. Inexperienced riders with rough hands happen in every discipline from Dressage (*GASP* I said it!) to jumpers,to trail riding.

I do see that the rider is trying to lighten the front, but here is my question for NRHA-you made a reference early on to watch the legs......I have, over and over. I see them doing little to nothing. I do not see the outside leg on, inside off like I have been taught with a spin......What were you referring to?

TO those of you who think this guy is cruel and abusive, please take note of the spurs and the fact that I did not even see them touch this horse. So what he is doing may not be your cup of tea, but he is far from an abusive rider. 

SOme of you may not like reining, or may love watching the trained ones, and just not understand what it takes to achieve that. Occasionally we need to correct our horses, just like ANY discipline. Particularly when they know better.


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## nrhareiner

franknbeans said:


> I do see that the rider is trying to lighten the front, but here is my question for NRHA-you made a reference early on to watch the legs......I have, over and over. I see them doing little to nothing. I do not see the outside leg on, inside off like I have been taught with a spin......What were you referring to?


 
What I am referring to is not when he is turning the horse but when he is correcting the horse. I would like to see him use his legs a bit more then he is but you can see as he is correcting the horse with his hands he is bumping the horse with his legs. What I would like to see is more leg and less hands.

What this will do in push the horse up into the bit free up the shoulder lift the ribs and rock the horse back over the hocks. This horse is really strung out in his turns. Look when he turns where his hind legs are. They need to be more under him then behind him and that is what this guy is trying to do. He is not trying to get a head set but he is trying to free hip the shoulder lift the rib cage and rock the horse back so he is turning over his hocks more.


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## franknbeans

Agree totally. I thought I was missing something he WAS doing with his legs. Thanks. I have not ever used my legs so much as with reiners.


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

I understand what everyone is saying about escalating the aids. If I'm navigating the cross country course and my horse starts to suck back on the approach to a jump, I'm going to give her a little leg, then a little more, and she STILL wants to keep it up and is about to refuse, a tap behind my leg with the crop to reinforce it.

What I WOULD NOT do, however, is continue smacking her with the crop once she's over the jump, over and over and over...which is kind of a metaphor for what I am seeing this guy doing. His horse gives, he jerks some more...gives, jerks some more, and on and on. Maybe I'm missing something slight that the horse still isn't giving him that he's looking for, but just an observation, made by a non-reiner here. 

If someone would like to enlighten me as to why that is or isn't true, please feel free though, I am trying to grasp why, in some people's opinions, this would be an acceptable way to use the escalation process - to continue on even after you got the response you were looking for.


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## busysmurf

Yes, this particular person is heavy handed. Yes, he is a reiner. Yes, it's been shown he is new. But is it abuse? No. To bring in "non-western" organizations & state they would not allow such methods is GROSSLY incorrect. I can give you several trainers that are members of such types of organizations that make the the rider in the video look like he hasn't touched the horses mouth AT ALL! And yet they are well respected in those organizations. 

This technique is not limited to one discipline! It is more often seen in the "non-western" disciplines, it just happens this video is of a reiner. BUT IT HAPPENS WITH EVERY DISCIPLINE. 

For those of you who must judge another rider based off a 70 sec video, post a 70 sec video of you working with your horse. Show us how perfect you are....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Corporal

oh vair oh said:


> The fact that he is a rookie *does not impress me.* I can only see that type of correction as a short-cut. And I agree, it is a method that people take that wins the big bucks and the big shows...It's not a technique I'll implement, just because it weighs better on my conscience to do it a different way.


ME, either.
Smacking your horse in the mouth at a horse show is akin to whipping your dog to "heel" right before you enter the dog-show ring. It shows a lack of preparation as WELL as a lack of understanding that pain anywhere doesn't result in greater compliance. I'll bet that this horse has had his tail numbed, too, so he cannot register a complaint that the judge will catch.
I guess I'm a better DOG trainer than a horse trainer bc my 5yo Husky/GSxBC mix now voluntarily heels on the way back from the barn every night. I didn't beat her, either. She does it bc she wants to. I thought THAT was why we show (off) our animals. =/ **pffftt**


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## franknbeans

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> I understand what everyone is saying about escalating the aids. If I'm navigating the cross country course and my horse starts to suck back on the approach to a jump, I'm going to give her a little leg, then a little more, and she STILL wants to keep it up and is about to refuse, a tap behind my leg with the crop to reinforce it.
> 
> What I WOULD NOT do, however, is continue smacking her with the crop once she's over the jump, over and over and over...which is kind of a metaphor for what I am seeing this guy doing. His horse gives, he jerks some more...gives, jerks some more, and on and on. Maybe I'm missing something slight that the horse still isn't giving him that he's looking for, but just an observation, made by a non-reiner here.
> 
> If someone would like to enlighten me as to why that is or isn't true, please feel free though, I am trying to grasp why, in some people's opinions, this would be an acceptable way to use the escalation process - to continue on even after you got the response you were looking for.


All due respect-this analogy does NOT work. Mainly because the problem is NOT fixed. It is not the same as continuing to smack a horse after a fence. Just because you see this horse give its head means nothing. That was not what the rider wanted to achieve. THerefore, the horse still wasn't "getting it" by rocking back off the forehand, freeing the shoulder and performing the maneuver correctly. He corrects the horse, tries the spin, still has not gotten what he needs, corrects again....still does NOT have it. I agree this may not be the best way to get where he is trying to go, all I am pointing out is that in your analogy the horse would have performed correctly, thus ending the need for continued correction. THis one did not.

Honestly-being new to reining and from a different background-I had times when I thought maybe it was a bit rough. Then I saw the difference in my own horse-the level of performance and respect, and I sort of see it like someone going into the military, or something I am more familiar with, BUDs training for SEALs. That is totally cruel-much more that my horse, who has a warm cozy stall and is asked to work an hour a day. But look what they turn out! WHere else would you be nearly drown then almost run to death...and asked to do it again...and again. The means do justify the end, IMO, as long as it is a reasonable trainer, which most are. Sure there are bad apples, just like any discipline. But they are, for the most part weeded out by the association.


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## mildot

busysmurf said:


> To bring in "non-western" organizations & state they would not allow such methods is GROSSLY incorrect.


Let me show you how easy it is to prove how wrong you are:



> FEI GENERAL REGULATIONS
> 23rd edition, 1 January 2009, updated 1 January 2010
> Article 142 – Abuse of Horses
> 1. *No person may abuse a Horse during an Event or at any other time. “Abuse” means an action or omission which causes or is likely to cause pain or unnecessary discomfort to a Horse*, including without limitation any of the following:
> - To whip or beat a Horse excessively;
> - To subject a Horse to any kind of electric shock device;
> - To use spurs excessively or persistently;
> *- To jab the Horse in the mouth with the bit or any other device;*
> - To compete using an exhausted, lame or injured Horse;
> - To “rap” a Horse.
> - To abnormally sensitise or desensitise any part of a Horse;
> - To leave a Horse without adequate food, drink or exercise;
> - To use any device or equipment which cause excessive pain to the Horse upon knocking down an obstacle.


 


> SUBCHAPTER 8-F​​​​​​​​​WELFARE OF THE HORSE.​
> GR839 Cruelty to and Abuse of a Horse .​1. Cruelty to or the abuse of a horse by any person at a Licensed Competition is forbidden, constitutes a violation under Chapter 7, and renders the offender subject to penalty. The Show Committee must bar violators from further participation for the remainder of the competition. It is the duty of the competition officials and any properly constituted humane organization to report to the Federation any person who indulges in this practice for such further action as may be deemed appropriate.
> 2. The Federation or the Judge, Steward, or TD may appoint a veterinarian to inspect any animal in competition. Refusal to submit an animal for examination by an authorized veterinarian after due notification shall constitute a violation.
> 3. Show Committees are encouraged to contact the American Humane Association, 63 Inverness Dr., E. Englewood, CO 80112, which will provide experienced humane inspectors to work with them in eliminating cruel practices.
> 4. The following acts are included under the words Cruelty and Abuse but are not limited thereto:
> a. Excessive use of a whip on any horse in a stall, runway, schooling area, competition ring or elsewhere on the competition grounds, before or during a competition, by any person. Except in emergency situations, any striking of the horse’s head (on the poll and forward of the poll) with the whip shall be deemed excessive.
> b. Rapping the legs of a horse with the butt end of a riding crop or other implement.
> c. Use of any substance to induce temporary heat.
> d. Manual poling with any object other than a bamboo pole.
> e. Use of a wire or chain in conjunction with any schooling jump.
> f. Use of electric device in schooling or showing.
> g. Use of shackles, hock hobbles and similar devices (not to be construed as rubber or elastic exercising devices).
> h. Showing a horse with raw or bleeding sores around the coronets, pasterns or legs.
> i. Use of any explosive (e.g., fire crackers, torpedoes, fire extinguishers except in case of fire, etc.) or laser beam devices anywhere on the competition grounds, except in an exhibition or if required in class specifications.
> j. Withholding of feed and water for prolonged periods.
> k. Letting blood from a horse for other than diagnostic purposes.
> l. Inhumane treatment of a horse in a stall, runway, schooling area, competition ring or elsewhere on the competition grounds, by any person.
> m. Use of any object that prevents the horse’s ability to close his mouth. (Exception: use of​​​​an oral speculum by a veterinarian or equine dentist to provide legitimate dental/oral medical​
> care.)
> 5. Any action(s) against a horse by a competitor or an exhibitor, which are deemed excessive by a judge, Federation steward, technical delegate or competition veterinarian, in the competition ring or anywhere on the competition grounds may be punished by official warning, elimination, or other sanctions which may be deemed appropriate by the Show Committee. Such action(s) could include, but are not limited to excessive use of the whip, spurs, or bamboo poles. Competitors and exhibitors have the right to contest any action taken pursuant to GR839.5 by filing a protest or grievance pursuant to Chapter 6 of the Rules for hearing and determination by the Hearing Committee.​





busysmurf said:


> I can give you several trainers that are members of such types of organizations that make the the rider in the video look like he hasn't touched the horses mouth AT ALL!


The fact that some get away with it does not mean the practices are condoned or legal.


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

franknbeans said:


> All due respect-this analogy does NOT work. Mainly because the problem is NOT fixed. It is not the same as continuing to smack a horse after a fence. Just because you see this horse give its head means nothing. That was not what the rider wanted to achieve. THerefore, the horse still wasn't "getting it" by rocking back off the forehand, freeing the shoulder and performing the maneuver correctly. He corrects the horse, tries the spin, still has not gotten what he needs, corrects again....still does NOT have it. I agree this may not be the best way to get where he is trying to go, all I am pointing out is that in your analogy the horse would have performed correctly, thus ending the need for continued correction. THis one did not.


Thanks for clarifying, that is what I was asking exactly: What was he trying to achieve? If it was headset, he was taking it too far. But I guess if this is how you rock a horse onto its haunches in this disclipline, I did not see the horse rocking back, so I now understand why he kept at it. I certainly would never be that harsh, but we all know there are varying degrees of hands in all disciplines and it's already been pointed out that this guy, while not being abusive, is a bit too heavy handed. I guess I'm too used to dressage where rocking back on the haunches comes from forward movement and from back to front, rather than from the hands/bit. 

Thank you for clarifying for me in an adult manner and not jumping down my throat, franknbeans, I appreciate that :wink:


----------



## franknbeans

NRHA explained it really well in a previous post. It is all in the way they have to spin without traveling in the rear. THis horse actually moves its hind around (travels) as opposed to staying in one spot and using one foot to pivot of sorts. If the horse has enough weight behind it's hind stays put the way it should, and the shoulders are freed up to cross over and perform the maneuver. Like I said-NRHA explained it well-much better than I could ever hope to with my limited reining experience.....


----------



## smrobs

There is also so much that cannot be seen in the video. If the horse was doing an action that we, as observers, thought looked good but still didn't give the appropriate response that the rider was _feeling_ for, then the horse is still not doing the proper action.

How many of us have ever had someone say to us "Wow, you and your horse looked amazing doing <insert particular move here>" and you just say "thanks" but all the while you are thinking about how the move didn't _feel_ very good because the horse wasn't as supple as you wanted or they felt a bit bracey here or there or they were sluggish to your cues or they were really falling on the forehand or dropping a shoulder into the turn.

I think I have to agree with NRHAreiner and Franknbeans here. While the rider may not have been using the method properly or in an ideal progression, it was a very long way from abuse. In spite of what all those NH gurus out there would have people believe, you can't always just be soft and kind and gentle and nicey-nice to a horse and get the results you desire. Sometimes they need a bump with the bit or a spur to remind them "Hey, you know what you're _supposed_ to be doing, now wake up and do it right". How hard that bump ends up being depends on how many of the previous steps in the progression the horse has just ignored.


----------



## busysmurf

Mildot, congratulations you just cut and paste words in a book. Every organization has written rules. Show me an organization that doesn't occasionally look the other way for certain members, or certain practices and you'll have a valid argument. Those written rules that you quoted are subject to interpretation. And the officials in those organizations that you quoted are the ones that interpret those. So unless there is only 1 person worldwide making those interpretations, I still don't see your point. 

I'm guessing that by basing your argument strictly on written word, you haven't been exposed to very many situations or events where there is more than 1 definition of how something may be achieved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## nrhareiner

Ok let me touch on a few things here.




Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> I understand what everyone is saying about escalating the aids. If I'm navigating the cross country course and my horse starts to suck back on the approach to a jump, I'm going to give her a little leg, then a little more, and she STILL wants to keep it up and is about to refuse, a tap behind my leg with the crop to reinforce it.
> 
> What I WOULD NOT do, however, is continue smacking her with the crop once she's over the jump, over and over and over...which is kind of a metaphor for what I am seeing this guy doing. His horse gives, he jerks some more...gives, jerks some more, and on and on. Maybe I'm missing something slight that the horse still isn't giving him that he's looking for, but just an observation, made by a non-reiner here.
> 
> *The differance here is that your maneuver is over. You escalated and the horse responded. Now what would you do if at the next jump he does the same thing? Would you not smake him again and then at the next jump does it again??? What would you do?? Same thing going on here.*
> 
> If someone would like to enlighten me as to why that is or isn't true, please feel free though, I am trying to grasp why, in some people's opinions, this would be an acceptable way to use the escalation process - to continue on even after you got the response you were looking for.


 
It is real simple The rider is not getting the responce he is looking for so he keeps correcting the horse. Again this is why I would like to see more then 70 sec. Did he start out this harsh or build to it?


----------



## nrhareiner

Corporal said:


> ME, either.
> Smacking your horse in the mouth at a horse show is akin to whipping your dog to "heel" right before you enter the dog-show ring. It shows a lack of preparation as WELL as a lack of understanding that pain anywhere doesn't result in greater compliance. I'll bet that this horse has had his tail numbed, too, so he cannot register a complaint that the judge will catch.
> I guess I'm a better DOG trainer than a horse trainer bc my 5yo Husky/GSxBC mix now voluntarily heels on the way back from the barn every night. I didn't beat her, either. She does it bc she wants to. I thought THAT was why we show (off) our animals. =/ **pffftt**


 
First compairing training a dog to a horse is not even close. A dog is not going to get you hurt if they mess up. Yes I have trained dogs to AKC titles quite a bit. Last dog I finished had 3 AKC titles by the time she was a year old.

Next this horse was not doing what was needed so the guy kept at it until he got a bit better. Once he got some of the response he wanted he quit. You can have a horse or dog who works well at home yet take them off your property and you WILL get a different responce. This is why when I train be it a dog or horse I haul them all over. What then do in one place does not mean they will do it in anouther.


----------



## nrhareiner

mildot said:


> Let me show you how easy it is to prove how wrong you are:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that some get away with it does not mean the practices are condoned or legal.


 
Your point? Go find yourself a reiner mag and see how many are on the suspended list. Quite a few at times. Some are some of the biggest names in NRHA over the years. One guy is on the suspended list b/c of his dog. 

I will say this again. If this was such a problem for the person who posted in on UTube then why did it take them 2 months to post? Why was it not taken the the show office right then? Why was it not sent into the NRHA. If this was so harsh then the horse would have been marked and the horse/rider would have been DQed.

Since no one seems to want to address this and from what I can see from the reiner list this guy is not on it. I would have to go back and check to see if he DQed or not but I will gaurentee that if he marked this horse either here in the warm up pen or in the class he WILL have been DQed.


----------



## bsms

I have a terrible temptation to post one of the videos by the anti-bit people, showing show jumpers and dressage riders getting in their horses mouth...but is it really needed? Does anyone really believe that rough hands are only found in western riders?

I'm not big on using bits to punish a horse, but plenty of folks would complain about ANY punishment. But if the horse knows what to do and how to do it, and just isn't doing it, then some form of punishment is appropriate. I promise you that my lead mare is MUCH stricter and MUCH harsher in handing out punishment than I am...or that rider was!


----------



## nrhareiner

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Thanks for clarifying, that is what I was asking exactly: What was he trying to achieve? If it was headset, he was taking it too far. But I guess if this is how you rock a horse onto its haunches in this disclipline, I did not see the horse rocking back, so I now understand why he kept at it. I certainly would never be that harsh, but we all know there are varying degrees of hands in all disciplines and it's already been pointed out that this guy, while not being abusive, is a bit too heavy handed. I guess I'm too used to dressage where rocking back on the haunches comes from forward movement and from back to front, rather than from the hands/bit.
> 
> Thank you for clarifying for me in an adult manner and not jumping down my throat, franknbeans, I appreciate that :wink:


As I pointed out earlier is it not just about rocking the horse back over the hocks but lifting and loosening the shoulder lifting the rib cage and so on. What he is doing is just ONE part of one way to get that results. Again this is a relatively new rider to reining. I can not say how long he has even been riding but think back to when you first started showing. Not just riding but showing and trying to get a response from your horse and only haveing 1/2 the tools needed. This looks like where this guy is. It is always easier to get the job done when you have the correct tool for the job and know how to use that tool.


----------



## busysmurf

I was finally able to watch more than 30 sec of the video. I counted 2 or 3 times when the horses mouth was opening from the see-sawing of the reins. The other times I saw the guy see-saw a few times & drop the reins. The horse at no time showed fear or undue distress. He showed some confusion as to exactly what he was being asked, but no fear. He wasn't tensing up after each spin when the rider would get heavy handed. And at the end of the vid, that horse was quiet & relaxed.... never seen THAT body language with an abused horse. And I've worked with my fair share of them, unfortunately. 

I wonder what ppl would say if they saw the video of a certain well liked clinician yanking on a lead rope until the whites of the horses eyes were showing? Would that be considered abuse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jumanji321

busysmurf said:


> I wonder what ppl would say if they saw the video of a certain well liked clinician yanking on a lead rope until the whites of the horses eyes were showing? Would that be considered abuse?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're not talking about Linda Parelli are you? Maybe not to that extent but there is a video of her yanking a horse around and smacking his jaw repeatedly with the lead shank.


----------



## bsms

mildot said:


> Let me show you how easy it is to prove how wrong you are...


"(4) The following will result in no score:

(a) infraction of any state or federal law which exists pertaining to the exhibition, care, and custody of horses within the state or country where an NRHA Reining is being held;

(b) *abuse of an animal in the show arena and/or evidence that an act of abuse has occurred prior to or during the exhibition of a horse in competition;*

(c) use of illegal equipment, including wire on bits, bosals or curb chains;

(d) use of illegal bits, bosals or curb chains;

(e) use of tack collars, tie downs or nose bands;

(f) use of whips or bats;

(g) use of any attachment which alters the movement of or circulation to the tail;

(h) *failure to dismount and/or present horse and equipment to the appropriate judge for inspection;*

(i) disrespect or misconduct by the exhibitor.

(j) *the judge(s) may excuse a horse at any time while in the arena for unsafe conditions or improper exhibition pertaining to both the horse and/or rider.*"

http://www.nrha.com/handbook/rulesforjudging.pdf


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## busysmurf

Didn't see that one! The one I saw was Clinton Anderson teaching a horse about personal space
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jumanji321

Yeah, it's the one that caused Fugly blog some grief after she posted it. I honestly can't remember what she was trying to do, but it was confusing regardless. I can't say I'm surprised at Clinton Anderson, I've heard some things about him and other top clinicians.


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## franknbeans

Folks-noone is perfect. Including any of us. Even the top clinicians are human, and with that comes imperfection. Watch anyone under a microscope and you will find faults. THen take only a piece of what you see so it is out of context, and post it up on the internet labeled as abuse and you will get a reaction. I am so tired of the type of people who posted this video-and I am just going by the name they have chosen.....just to get a reaction without the facts. I have had more than my fair share of this type recently with the whole "puppy mill" controversy going on here in our little town, and all the animal rights sorts around. Fed up with the lot of them. And the whole post on Youboob to ID this guy so he can be "brought to justice..." just put me over the edge. You cannot post a reply there, since the idiot who posted the video has to approve, so naturally all the posts there agree! [URL="[/URL]


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## busysmurf

Jumanji, like I always say...take bits & pieces from everyone that work in your situation. I have yet to see a trainer, clinicians, or rider have/teach techniques that work in 100% of every situation. What may seem like abuse to some on one horse, may be considered not "strong" enough on another horse by that same person. That's why I don't follow one particular clinician over another, ppl get tunnel vision
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## busysmurf

Frank, I'm still waiting for someone to post a 70 sec video of themselves riding, LOL. Hmmm, when the tables are turned.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jumanji321

busysmurf said:


> Jumanji, like I always say...take bits & pieces from everyone that work in your situation. I have yet to see a trainer, clinicians, or rider have/teach techniques that work in 100% of every situation. What may seem like abuse to some on one horse, may be considered not "strong" enough on another horse by that same person. That's why I don't follow one particular clinician over another, ppl get tunnel vision
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
I got the same advice when I was 11. Listen politely, if you don't agree then simply ignore the information they give you. Best advice I've ever gotten.


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## COWCHICK77

To me, I find this scary. 

What other idiots are lurking at horse shows to video a snipet of people schooling their horse to post to YouTube and label it "abuse"?

Like said before, it is not abusive, but perhaps not the best way free up shoulders, unstick the rib, and get his hindend under himself. (ahem....counter bending) But we _all_ have to start somewhere.
If the horse was scared, eyes rolled back into his head, running backwards to evade...different story. But he wasn't.


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## franknbeans

COWCHICK77 said:


> To me, I find this scary.
> 
> What other idiots are lurking at horse shows to video a snipet of people schooling their horse to post to YouTube and label it "abuse"?
> 
> Like said before, it is not abusive, but perhaps not the best way free up shoulders, unstick the rib, and get his hindend under himself. (ahem....counter bending) But we _all_ have to start somewhere.
> If the horse was scared, eyes rolled back into his head, running backwards to evade...different story. But he wasn't.


My thought exactly. Very scary. Anyone could take snippets from many things we do.....:shock:


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

nrhareiner said:


> Ok let me touch on a few things here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is real simple The rider is not getting the responce he is looking for so he keeps correcting the horse. Again this is why I would like to see more then 70 sec. Did he start out this harsh or build to it?


Yeah franknbeans already mentioned the same, I was just misunderstanding what he was trying to go for...to my non-reiner eye it looked like he GOT the response he wanted but kept going anyway, but as you and franknbeans have pointed out, he did not get it so he was continuing to ask and escalate further. That is why I asked for clarification.


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

jumanji321 said:


> You're not talking about *Linda Parelli* are you? Maybe not to that extent but there is a video of her yanking a horse around and smacking his jaw repeatedly with the lead shank.


OH NO let's not open THAT box of fun! :shock:


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## KGolden

Not everyone is going to train a horse the same way as the person next to you . My old trainer trained her pleasure mare by tying her down by her bit and making her run till she learned to slow down . Do I think it's right ? No . Does it get results ? Yes . Not everyone trains with the same methods . My trainer and I don't even have the same methods, but are our horses happy and responsive ? Yes . Does it make me a little uncomfortable to watch this horse get pulled ? Yes . Does the horse look uncomfortable ? Yes, but that's the point . What I learned is make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult . And he's making the wrong thing difficult and making the right thing easy . It's not abusive . It's training .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jumanji321

Oh man, I don't want to. I was just asking if that's who she was talking about.


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## Easter

Why exactly in the video description does it state: 

_



Taken at the Florida Reining Horse Association show at the Florida State Fairgrounds on February 25, 2012.

This man was seen abusing his horse by sawing at his mouth mercilessly, even when the horse did what he was asked.

Please help identify this man so he can be brought to justice.

Click to expand...

_I don't really think this is point blank abuse. Is this really punishable by law? What happens when they find out who this is and contact authorities and give a heavily exaggerated description of this abuse? Isn't that an invasion of privacy? There will be THOUSANDS of people looking for this man now. In a way he is being, if I am correct, stalked? They WANT this person in trouble.


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## franknbeans

That is exactly what scares the crap out of me-and then his name is there! Any whack job can take a video snippet of any one of us at a show and do this. I really hope someone lets him know, at the very least. I would think that the poster could be charged with something? Sure hope so. I do not now what the law is, honestly, but scary for sure.


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## SorrelHorse

If I ever found a video of myself like that on youtube I would have a few words to say to the uploader. I'm sure some natural horsemanship extremist will eventually try and nail me for using an over and under when I barrel race. That'll be a fun day.


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## nrhareiner

This is where Utube falls down along with the laws keeping up with technology. What this guy is doing is not abuse but what the OP is doing is wrong and if they really think this is bad there are other ways to go about doing something about it. There needs to be laws about this type of postings and UT needs to remove the video.


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## Easter

The comments on the video are amusing. People don't realize that a video like this could ruin his showing career? <-- (I'm just assuming) Would you alert the man in this video? If he wrote youtube could they take it down? I agree there needs to be a law.


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## franknbeans

I actually just flagged it and reported it. Others can do the same, altho I will say it is certainly not an easy process, and would be better of HE did it. I reported it for harassment and cyberbullying-that was the only thing applicable. The privacy stuff has to be first person, and something HE would have to report.


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## jumanji321

Yes they can because if the video was taken without his permission and posted, I believe it violates his rights.


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## franknbeans

I just googled his name-they have posted this video in more places. UGH. Crazy people.


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## mildot

jumanji321 said:


> Yes they can because if the video was taken without his permission and posted, I believe it violates his rights.


Uh, no. It doesn't violate ANY of his rights.

It might be a violation of Youtube policy, which is FAR, FAR from a violation of law or civil rights.

Most people think they have far more rights than they actually do. And when you do something in public, your image is not yours. You have ZERO expectation of privacy in a public place and there is plenty of legal precedent to back that up.

You can be photographed in public all day long. You can be video recorded in public all day long. And if the recording is not done in a surrepetitious manner, you can be audio recorded as well in virtually all states.


----------



## mildot

SorrelHorse said:


> If I ever found a video of myself like that on youtube I would have a few words to say to the uploader. I'm sure some natural horsemanship extremist will eventually try and nail me for using an over and under when I barrel race. That'll be a fun day.


What are you going to say? What are you going to do? You have no legal expectation of privacy in public.

Get physical with the person doing the recording and YOU go to jail on assault charges. :lol:


----------



## mildot

Easter said:


> I agree there needs to be a law.


Good luck with that. :lol:


----------



## Rascaholic

I rarely post on threads like these, but I feel the need to do so today. 
I see a heavy handed person in the video. I see him yanking the horses mouth. Do I think all reiner's ride like this guy, NO! Do I think this guy is an idiot, depends on if he yanks this horses mouth all the time at this degree of force. 

This is like any other equestrian sport. There is the good, the bad, and the damned ugly. It happens everywhere. I hope if he left marks in that horse's mouth that they threw him out on his ear. I hope the warm up that I saw on youtube with the chick doing the yank and crank on her jumpers mouth got tossed like an old shoe. I hope the jockey with the heavy crop hand got his butt kicked. I hope the idiot in the back yard cracking her ponies jaw while jumping a 55 gallon drum got tossed off the saintly pony.
I hope those who deal with horses in a manner I personally find distasteful suffer like their horses do. But the bottom line to me is the one word, PERSONAL. It's my *personal opinion* _expressed on a public forum_.
We can all agree to disagree and keep posting, or leave in a huff. This forum has lost some really knowledgeable people, since I joined, over stupid stuff like this. I miss reading a lot of peoples ideas, opinions, and knowledgeable posts. I'd hate to see even more go because we all get a little heated sometimes. 
There is a post from yesterday, well actually several over the last few days, that I started and then deleted because I knew I couldn't keep my posts helpful and constructive.
I do love to see a good debate though. Check out the hoof section. There are several people with very different ideals there. So far, I have learned a lot from them. And for the most part they keep debating and teaching me all the while.
This thread has shown me that while I might consider this video questionable, obviously, some do not. So I went searching for answers. I HOPE some other folks did too.
I'll say this, reining horses are some AWESOMELY trained animals. If I could spin like that I'd be a world class ballerina!


----------



## Easter

mildot said:


> Good luck with that. :lol:


You know.. technically I AM a child. I am 14 years old. I enjoy being educated and learning new things, but the constantly sarcastic tone of your fourm posts is NOT necessary .. pardon my saying.


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## jumanji321

I agree, I am a minor as well. I did not state it does without a doubt violate his rights. I don't know why you've chosen to be so rude to everyone but it's really immature of you to be constantly harping at everyone without at least trying to be mature about it.

ETA: With that, I am no longer going to post on this thread so I can avoid starting a major conflict.


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## SorrelHorse

Mildot if someone at any point in time thought I was "abusing" my horse and posted the video on youtube, my "choice words" would not be to change their mind or make them take it down...But more along the lines of making myself feel better. They can rant back to me all they want about how I am such a horrible person, but as long as my view is repesented for them to think about my point is across. Perhaps that's a new way to think about it, but very rarely do I do anything that does not benefit my peace of mind. Thank god no one ever thinks I'm a horse abuser (Yet, but I heard the PETA people are back around these days.)

Though, if anyone ever was to find a way to stop all the annoying abuse videos I wouldn't say no.

[Also agreeing with the two above posters, though I'm sure we can do nothing to stop you anyhow.]


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## mildot

jumanji321 said:


> I agree, I am a minor as well. I did not state it does without a doubt violate his rights. I don't know why you've chosen to be so rude to everyone but it's really immature of you to be constantly harping at everyone without at least trying to be mature about it.
> 
> ETA: With that, I am no longer going to post on this thread so I can avoid starting a major conflict.


You said you believe the video violates his rights. You were corrected without a sugar coat.


----------



## mildot

SorrelHorse said:


> Though, if anyone ever was to find a way to stop all the annoying abuse videos I wouldn't say no.


So let me see if I understand.

You want free speech stifled because you disagree with what is being said?


----------



## SorrelHorse

Mildot, I'm sure if I felt like a debate I could develop a policy to amend a law or blah-de-blah, but I'm really not into arguing with you anymore. Freedom of speech stifled is not what I want. In fact, I used freedom of speech right there by stating my opinions on these "abuse" videos. I was unaware everything I said on an open forum had to have constitutional validity...Perhaps next time I'll take more than thirty seconds to type it out.

Orrr actually I probably won't. But okay.


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## nrhareiner

I just flagged it you all should do the same. This video should not have ever been posted. It needs to come down.


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## mildot

nrhareiner said:


> I just flagged it you all should do the same. This video should not have ever been posted. It needs to come down.


Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

So those who disagree with you and consider such treatment inhumane don't get to have their say? You just want it swept it up under the carpet?

What are you all going to do if the owner of a video decides to e-mail around? What are you all going to do if this video is hosted on a private website? Hack it? DoS attack?

Same as the dressage rollkur/low-deep-round/hyperflexion crowd.


----------



## nrhareiner

mildot said:


> Uh, no. It doesn't violate ANY of his rights.
> 
> It might be a violation of Youtube policy, which is FAR, FAR from a violation of law or civil rights.
> 
> Most people think they have far more rights than they actually do. And when you do something in public, your image is not yours. You have ZERO expectation of privacy in a public place and there is plenty of legal precedent to back that up.
> 
> You can be photographed in public all day long. You can be video recorded in public all day long. And if the recording is not done in a surrepetitious manner, you can be audio recorded as well in virtually all states.


 

Actually it does. Yes anyone can video tape you but there is a limit as to what they can do with it. Some uses need a release this could be one of those things as he was not in a public place but at the show grounds paid for my the NRHA Affiliate in which he is a member and has paid for through his dues and entrie fees. 

Then there is the question that they did not just post a video and leave it at that but they accused him of being abussive. This is where they could be held libal. This is not a ciminal act but would be a cival one and I would be that the subject would win in a civil suit as he can be proven that he is not being abussive as there was no damage to the horse. IF he could prove damages to him by this person posting this video around the net he could sue. Would he win? I would think he would have a good chance but like anything like that it would be up to a jury of 9 to decide.


----------



## mildot

nrhareiner said:


> Some uses need a release this could be one of those things as he was not in a public place but at the show grounds paid for my the NRHA Affiliate in which he is a member and has paid for through his dues and entrie fees.


Unless there was a clearly stated "no video" policy at that event, this guy is SOL on that. Particularly if the person doing the recording paid his way in as a spectator.



nrhareiner said:


> Then there is the question that they did not just post a video and leave it at that but they accused him of being abussive. This is where they could be held libal. This is not a ciminal act but would be a cival one and I would be that the subject would win in a civil suit as he can be proven that he is not being abussive as there was no damage to the horse. IF he could prove damages to him by this person posting this video around the net he could sue. Would he win? I would think he would have a good chance but like anything like that it would be up to a jury of 9 to decide.


For libel to stick, there has to be a lie or an untruthful statement. One little thing about animal cruelty, it doesn't require that there be lasting (or even temporary) physical damage to the animal to stick. This guy would be a fool to take this to civil court as a libel action.


----------



## franknbeans

mildot said:


> Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.
> 
> So those who disagree with you and consider such treatment inhumane don't get to have their say? You just want it swept it up under the carpet?
> 
> What are you all going to do if the owner of a video decides to e-mail around? What are you all going to do if this video is hosted on a private website? Hack it? DoS attack?
> 
> Same as the dressage rollkur/low-deep-round/hyperflexion crowd.


Mildot-this is a far as I could read to catch up. YOU are the one who is unbelievable. THe person who posted this video, unbeknownst to the person IN the video, is accusing the person of what is a crime, (last I knew actual abuse IS illegal, in every state, unless you know better, since you seem to be the all knowing). What they have stated as FACT (i.e. horse being abused) is IN FACT, THEIR OPINION. THey have posted the video to get a reaction from other do gooders, and have succeeded in getting this mans name out on the internet for all to see. 

If you can, just for a moment, imagine that you are out riding. The horse trips, you lose your balance and catch the horse in the mouth. Then, as you regain your balance, you just happen to kick the horse. Now, some person happens to be videoing you. THey take that snippet-just that few seconds out of what may have been a wonderful ride-and the post it on the internet, stating that you were abusing your horse. I would like to know how happy that would make you when YOUR name is out there for all to see, and any whack job who decides he wants to play vigilante on behalf of the "poor horse" comes after you. 

As far as your point about freedom of speech-that is also a load of crap in this case, since EVERY POST that does not agree with the poster is deleted within minutes. Do you call that freedom of speech and equal rights? 

THis rider has been wronged. Any one of us could be in that video. That is what has to stop. We may all have to agree to disagree as to whether or not what he is doing is what we would do or not, but I would hope we can all agree that to take a video of someone without their knowledge, accuse them of a crime, and post it up on the internet without the kahonas to give their own name is just wrong.


----------



## nrhareiner

mildot said:


> Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.
> 
> So those who disagree with you and consider such treatment inhumane don't get to have their say? You just want it swept it up under the carpet?
> 
> *No I have stated several times in this thread. That it took this person over a month to post this video. This video SHOULD have been taken to the show office and shown to them and/or sent into NRHA. There are policies in place to handle this. Posting this on a public forum like Utube helps no one. I just serves to insite idiots who know very little to nothing about what is going on. There is no referance to this video just a short clip. I have a BIG problem when people try things on the court of public opinion.*
> 
> What are you all going to do if the owner of a video decides to e-mail around? What are you all going to do if this video is hosted on a private website? Hack it? DoS attack?
> 
> Same as the dressage rollkur/low-deep-round/hyperflexion crowd.


If they wish to Email it round that is not the same as posting on an open forum like Utube or other similar sites. 

If there is any true abbuse there are policise in place to handle it and THAT is where it should be handled. Not this way.


----------



## nrhareiner

mildot said:


> Unless there was a clearly stated "no video" policy at that event, this guy is SOL on that. Particularly if the person doing the recording paid his way in as a spectator.
> 
> 
> *Each show is different so I can not say what was or was not posted. I will say that EVERY run at EVERY show is recored by someone who was hired to do so and most of the time out side photographers and videographers are not allowed. You can shoot your own horses but past that is normally not allowed.*
> 
> 
> *Also as a pro photographer I will tell you that you do need a reliese to use a person image. Why do you think they fuse out people faces in Videos and on new casts?*
> 
> For libel to stick, there has to be a lie or an untruthful statement. One little thing about animal cruelty, it doesn't require that there be lasting (or even temporary) physical damage to the animal to stick. This guy would be a fool to take this to civil court as a libel action.


At the point they say this guy is being abussive that is liable. As they are making a statement that is not true. At the end of the day anyone can sue any one and it comes down to the 9 people sitting there to decide. 

As for being a fool. Not really. That would be up to him. Since he is not a trainer he is not loosing income b/c of this so there would be little gain there. So as to that it might not be worth it. More principle then anything.


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## bsms

It might be helpful to distinguish between "legal rights" and "natural rights".

Legally, it would be tough to prove libel. And I don't think you have a legal right to privacy when you do something in public - unless you are a cop in some states, where you can be arrested for videotaping a cop in his official duties.

But rights can also refer to natural rights. Natural law - common decency and a concern for the rights of the accused - says a man has the right to face his opponents. Posting a video on YouTube calling someone an animal abuser violates that natural right, even if our law doesn't give one legal recourse.

Freedom of speech works best when people speak responsibly. Making a public, anonymous accusation of animal abuse, with a 70 second video to back it up, is very irresponsible.

The Arizona law for animal abuse is at this link:

Format Document

Excerpt:_A. A person commits cruelty to animals if the person does any of the following:
1. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly subjects any animal under the person's custody or control to cruel neglect or abandonment.
2. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly fails to provide medical attention necessary to prevent protracted suffering to any animal under the person's custody or control.
3. Intentionally, knowingly or recklessly inflicts unnecessary physical injury to any animal.
4. Recklessly subjects any animal to cruel mistreatment...

...2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal."
_​That has nothing to do with "I think the guy is too heavy handed with the reins", or even, "I don't think people should use bits" or "I don't think people should ride horses".


When you allow people to define animal abuse based, not on physical harm, but on "what I don't like to see", you open up the door to allowing accusations of abuse for owning a dog, riding a horse, rounding up cattle in the sun, etc.

Arizona also says:"13-2910.05. Exempt activities
(Caution: 1998 Prop. 105 applies)
Activity involving the possession, training, exhibition or use of an animal in the otherwise lawful pursuits of hunting, ranching, farming, rodeos, shows and security services shall be exempt from the provisions of sections 13-2910.01, 13-2910.02, 13-2910.03 and 13-2910.04."
​The law would vary from state to state, but I'm not comfortable with the idea that anyone who wants to accuse you of cruelty to animals (Do your horses ever sweat while riding?) should be able to do so on Youtube, and potentially cost you employment etc at a later date.

This is a case where the law hasn't caught up with the extensive defamation that can occur in hours on the Internet.


----------



## bsms

mildot said:


> ...One little thing about animal cruelty, it doesn't require that there be lasting (or even temporary) physical damage to the animal to stick...


In many states, the legal definition of abuse DOES require more than someone saying, "I don't like how you treat your animals."

I've met people who think Border Collies should not be allowed to breed, because their primary purpose is to 'harass' sheep. I've met people who think I'm abusive, because I own dogs. And I've met people who think all domestic horses are abused, because they are not being allowed to roam "Free, as free as the wind blows"!


----------



## nrhareiner

bsms said:


> In many states, the legal definition of abuse DOES require more than someone saying, "I don't like how you treat your animals."


This is true. There does need to be some physical sine. 

Let me tell you a bit of a story. About 13 years ago the guy who lived next door to me in the city decided he did not like my dog. So he took out his BB gun and shot him. I found evidence of this and called the cops and animal control. They came out investigated talked to the guy who ADMITED to shooting my dog. Since there was not physical signs of the dog being injured short of taking x rays they would not press charges.


----------



## busysmurf

To further illistrate what bsms said. In May 1999, a rider was disqualified from a WI dressage/combined training event for slapping her horse in the shoulder. The steward immediately removed the rider from the warm up arena stating excessive punishment & abuse.

The following day, a video of the incident was presented to the organizations board. The video clearly showed the horse trying to bite at passing horses. The rider, clearly frustrated, slapped the horse on the shoulder with their hand when the horse tried to bite a passing horse. The horse was slapped ONCE at the time of misbehavior, no other punishment was administered by the rider.

During the review of the incident, the steward vehimently stood behind the call of abuse, stating he felt slapping in any form or situation was abuse. The board came to the conclusion that the rider had acted appropriately. However, the damage was already done, the rider received numerous negative actions against her because people assumed she was abusive towards horses. That was the last time she ever rode competitively. All because 1 person didn't like how she did something.

I'm sorry that I have to be the one to tell you this, but the world IS NOT black & white.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Skyseternalangel

COWCHICK77 said:


> To me, I find this scary.
> 
> What other idiots are lurking at horse shows to video a snipet of people schooling their horse to post to YouTube and label it "abuse"?


Man makes me even more nervous to go to my first show with Sky.


----------



## reining girl

Wow, stupid stupid stupid video. Was the guy a little over the top yes, but way off of being abusive. People need to take a chill pill. Theres bad in EVERY horse event. Hell we might as well turn all our horses free because any thing we do anymore is going to be abusive. Pretty soon people are going to be disqualified for looking at there horse wrong.


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## Saddlebag

I was lucky to be exposed to excellent horsemen and the one thing they all said was to protect the horse's mouth. When a horse has a sore mouth you will not get the best performance. ie. don't jerk the reins. It's amazing how responsive horses can be when the reins are merely tickled or stroked with the little finger. Guys like the one in the video send the message that this is ok or he might see a big decline in business.


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## mildot

You guys can argue till the cows come home about the legalities of animal abuse, or about the "legality" of posting this jerk's video for all the world to see.

As far as I am concerned, his treatment of his horse is unethical, abusive, and shows deplorable horsemanship. His counduct is punishable by rules in any recognized USEF or FEI (including reining) event.

Anyone who makes any kind of excuse or rationalization about the way that horse was treated is not someone I wish to associate with, much less let anywhere near a horse that is in my care. 

Anyone with a lick of common decency and sense can see the difference between what he is doing and an aggressive correction to stop or control dangerous behavior of a horse. 

As far as the video, I'm down with it. The roaches scurry when the light gets turned on, in ANY discipline.

If all of that makes me an A-H, so be it. I can still live with myself. It wouldn't be the first time I take an unpopular position.


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

busysmurf said:


> To further illistrate what bsms said. In May 1999, a rider was disqualified from a WI dressage/combined training event for slapping her horse in the shoulder. The steward immediately removed the rider from the warm up arena stating excessive punishment & abuse.
> 
> The following day, a video of the incident was presented to the organizations board. The video clearly showed the horse trying to bite at passing horses. The rider, clearly frustrated, slapped the horse on the shoulder with their hand when the horse tried to bite a passing horse. The horse was slapped ONCE at the time of misbehavior, no other punishment was administered by the rider.
> 
> During the review of the incident, the steward vehimently stood behind the call of abuse, stating he felt slapping in any form or situation was abuse. The board came to the conclusion that the rider had acted appropriately. However, the damage was already done, the rider received numerous negative actions against her because people assumed she was abusive towards horses. That was the last time she ever rode competitively. All because 1 person didn't like how she did something.
> 
> I'm sorry that I have to be the one to tell you this, but the world IS NOT black & white.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wow, that's just a shame :-|


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

I thnk someone needs to let this guy know the video is out there and let him "redeem" himself, in all fairness. (I'm sure he may already know it is though) Let him show a video of a "typical" ride/warmup that's longer than a minute and see the steps he took to escalate to this point. Maybe then those of us who don't agree with what we saw on the short video that was posted would begin to see both sides of the fence/the whole picture? If I were him, I'd be livid if this was truly not representative of how I treat my horse, and I'd want the chance to "respond" to the youtube video and show the world the other side of the truth.


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## franknbeans

mildot said:


> You guys can argue till the cows come home about the legalities of animal abuse, or about the "legality" of posting this jerk's video for all the world to see.
> 
> As far as I am concerned, his treatment of his horse is unethical, abusive, and shows deplorable horsemanship. His counduct is punishable by rules in any recognized USEF or FEI (including reining) event.
> 
> Anyone who makes any kind of excuse or rationalization about the way that horse was treated is not someone I wish to associate with, much less let anywhere near a horse that is in my care.
> 
> Anyone with a lick of common decency and sense can see the difference between what he is doing and an aggressive correction to stop or control dangerous behavior of a horse.
> 
> As far as the video, I'm down with it. The roaches scurry when the light gets turned on, in ANY discipline.
> 
> If all of that makes me an A-H, so be it. I can still live with myself. It wouldn't be the first time I take an unpopular position.


I can only hope that someone posts a video of you on youtube one day catching you in a off moment. Maybe then you will decide it is not fair to judge based on so little information.


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## bsms

mildot said:


> ...As far as I am concerned, his treatment of his horse is unethical, abusive, and shows deplorable horsemanship. His counduct is punishable by rules in any recognized USEF or FEI (including reining) event.
> 
> Anyone who makes any kind of excuse or rationalization about the way that horse was treated is not someone I wish to associate with, much less let anywhere near a horse that is in my care...


To put it bluntly, I've never seen a horse trained where the level of "unethical, abusive, and...deplorable horsemanship" hasn't sometimes reached this level.

When I walk into the corral & feed my horses, they wait at their buckets. They don't do that naturally. When I first got them, they would try to push and get the feed from me immediately - and I would use a feed bucket or poop scoop or anything else at hand to MAKE them get out of my way.

When I've walked Mia on a lead, and she started panicking because...well, because...I've either turned her or backed her up with a lot more aggression than this guy was showing. I don't know what my neighbors thought about me, but I can't allow 900 lbs of muscle to take control.

Sometimes you have to go where you don't want to go with a horse so the horse won't want to go there, either.

I believe in natural horsemanship. I watch my lead mare maintain discipline. Then I tone it down about 20-fold. When I started daily training sessions with Mia last Nov, one of the first things the trainer asked me was, "If another horse treated Mia that way, would SHE accept it?"

No one could ever accuse me of getting too harsh with a bit. I didn't use bits for a long time, and I started using them only when I realized that a well handled bit allows the rider to be SOFTER with a horse, not harsher. But I do not subscribe to the Black Stallion School of Training. I can't get Mia to relax and obey by feeding her seaweed & generating some mysterious bond. Sometimes she needs me to be harsh with her, although I've never been as harsh as she is with other horses.

Oddly enough, the other horses run to Mia when they are nervous. Apparently they don't mind her autocratic rule. And when Mia gets nervous, she comes to me. She puts her head next to me and waits for me to make the bad things go away. Odd, given my "unethical, abusive, and...deplorable horsemanship"...:?

When I see most English riders riding, my gut reaction is, "Let go of your horse's head!" I think a lot of English riding looks 'abusive' - but I'm also smart enough to see that those 'abused' horses do just fine, and even adore their 'abusive' riders. The standard for 'abuse' can't be what YOU think, or what I think. It needs to be what the HORSE thinks.


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## nrhareiner

mildot said:


> You guys can argue till the cows come home about the legalities of animal abuse, or about the "legality" of posting this jerk's video for all the world to see.
> *This does not fit the legal definision of abuse in ANY state. Point blank period. Court of public opinion is not a valid court and I have a VERY big problem with it. This is not enough information that is why we have rules of evidence in a court of law.*
> 
> 
> As far as I am concerned, his treatment of his horse is unethical, abusive, and shows deplorable horsemanship. His counduct is punishable by rules in any recognized USEF or FEI (including reining) event.
> 
> *What rules? We have listed these rules and he has not vilated any of them. USEF and FEI rules do not apply to this case so you are left with NRHA rules which are quite clear and VERY VERY well inforced. So IF you truely think this guy is violating NRHA rules then get the FULL video and contact NRHA. Since that has not been done by the OP of this video this smakes of sour grapes to me. This video was probably taken and posted by a competitor who can not compet in NRHA even at this level and is ****ed and taking it out on those who can.*
> 
> Anyone who makes any kind of excuse or rationalization about the way that horse was treated is not someone I wish to associate with, much less let anywhere near a horse that is in my care.
> *Again I am not going to judge based on this clip. There is not enough info in it. I know what he is TRYING to do and as I have steted he is not doing it very well but giving his experiance....*
> 
> *You are judging someone without all the facts. I see this all the time on the news and it really ****es me off. You are doing the same thing.*
> 
> Anyone with a lick of common decency and sense can see the difference between what he is doing and an aggressive correction to stop or control dangerous behavior of a horse.
> 
> *Lets see a clip of your horse and how well they perform and lets see how you got your horse to that point. If you are going to judge then turn about is only fair. Now if this guy was a pro trainer then things would be a bit different but I would still hold judgement until I see more of what was going on. I would also want to get the other side.*
> 
> As far as the video, I'm down with it. The roaches scurry when the light gets turned on, in ANY discipline.
> 
> If all of that makes me an A-H, so be it. I can still live with myself. It wouldn't be the first time I take an unpopular position.


Again if you THINK this is so bad then go to the OP of this video get the whole thing along with his name and info and send it all into NRHA. Since that has not been done I have a big problem with this as it is just part of the whole picture.


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## busysmurf

Let me repeat... (ahem Mildot), Why don't people who feel the riders actions in the video were unacceptable post a 70 second video of them riding a horse that is not doing what you want? Let's see how you react to that one?!?

I am by no stretch of the imagination a perfect rider, but if I had the tools (i.e. someone that actually knew how & was willing to video me riding, LOL) I would be more than willing to post one of myself. I am willing to back up my statements with proof of experience. And I'm not talking about stating a bunch of rules, I'm talking real world, real life experience.

I see a lot of "black & white" comments here, but not any experience to back up those comments. People who make those types of comments are called talking heads in my profession, they are VERY book smart. In that way they are helpful. But I wouldn't DARE take them in the field with me, they are a fish out of water and a risk. And until they can prove to me they have and can handle the outside world, their statements and rules only have minimum validity.


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## reining girl

i dont agree with what he did. But it is sure as hell a far cry from being abusive. So your just this perfect rider whos horses are always perfect. You have never acidentally pulled to hard on a horses mouth, acidentally kicked a to hard, acidentally landed in the saddle a bit to hard when the horse bucked. oh wait thats right, your a perfect rider and have perfect horses. What a crock of horse sh!t. Oh thats right, you have the FEI to protect all the horses for when the enter the show ring, who cares what goes on out of the show ring. So when a horse tries to kill another person all the person can do is tell him no no bad bad boy. Heaven forbid they raise a hand to that delicate 1400 feather.


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## mildot

reining girl said:


> i dont agree with what he did. But it is sure as hell a far cry from being abusive. So your just this perfect rider whos horses are always perfect. You have never acidentally pulled to hard on a horses mouth, acidentally kicked a to hard, acidentally landed in the saddle a bit to hard when the horse bucked. oh wait thats right, your a perfect rider and have perfect horses. What a crock of horse sh!t. Oh thats right, you have the FEI to protect all the horses for when the enter the show ring, who cares what goes on out of the show ring. So when a horse tries to kill another person all the person can do is tell him no no bad bad boy. Heaven forbid they raise a hand to that delicate 1400 feather.


Nice strawman argument.

There was nothing accidental about the actions of the man in question. Period. End of story.

What this man was doing had nothing to do with controlling an animal that is dangerous and out of control.

The only crock is in quotes above.


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## busysmurf

mildot said:


> Nice strawman argument.
> 
> There was nothing accidental about the actions of the man in question. Period. End of story.
> 
> What this man was doing had nothing to do with controlling an animal that is dangerous and out of control.
> 
> The only crock is in quotes above.


Just keep digging your tunnel, maybe you'll get lucky and find somewhere that exactly fits your view of how things should be.

Until then, stop accusing someone you've never met, and have only seen in a video for 70 seconds of abuse. By only accepting situations and actions as black & white, you yourself are commiting the same offense.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

Mildot, you support jumping. More horses are injured by jumping than by someone briefly getting in their mouth too much. And frankly, LOTS of English riders get in their horse's mouth too much for my taste - at least, the ones practicing at a stable I sometimes drive by sure do.

You recently posted a thread showing horses at the Italian Cavalry school. It included having horses slide down a steep embankment - and some fell. Their schooling also included this:_"This is a photograph of a descent known as the descent of Mombrone. This descent was done more as a test of nerve than anything else, and in pre-war days every officer had to go down it before he left the School; but accidents were not unknown and occasionally rather serious, and the practice has rather died out since the war. Mombrone is an old ruined castle about 3 miles from Pinerolo, and the descent is made from what was once a window about 20 feet from the ground, but earth is piled up a little at the bottom and now the drop is only about 15 feet."_​






​ 
So you tell me - was the Italian Cavalry school abusive?

I've posted a picture of me riding on this thread that, taken out of context, makes me look very harsh. I'd be willing to bet that if I recorded your riding, I could find times when you weren't flawless. I'd be willing to bet if I taped you long enough, I'd even find a time you lost your temper...

And in truth, most riders I've seen will SOMETIMES use the bit & reins to tell the horse, "Snap out of it!" And I do not see how that is any harsher, crueler or more abusive than using a crop - something very few western riders ever carry. Would it have made you feel better if the man had hit the horse with a crop? Are crops not abusive, since they are used mostly by English riders?

I've never seen a competent trainer who trained with nothing but rose petals and kisses. And anyone who says otherwise is blowing smoke up your butt. And yes, that goes for your beloved dressage trainers!


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## texasgal

This thread gives me a headache .. lol.

People never agree on this issue ..

Some people think rodeo is abuse.
Some people think jumping is abuse.
Some people think any form of correction that causes pain is abuse.
Some people think any form of correction is abuse.
Some people think curb bits are abuse.
Some people think bits are abuse.
Some people think riding a horse hard is abuse.
Some people think riding a horse is abuse.
Some people think confining a horse to a stall is abuse.
Some people think confining a horse at all is abuse.
Some people think thin horses are abused.
Some people think fat horses are abused.
Some people think that most horses that aren't THEIRS are abused.

lol .. Just a bit of humor .. 

Abuse is a VERY overused word... imo.


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## busysmurf

BSMS - If I could keep hitting LIKE, I would!!!!

And I missed that picture, LOL Now I'm going to have to go back and search!!


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## Ink

mildot are you saying you've never once lost your cool when you were riding and did something you maybe shouldn't have? Suppose someone caught on video just that one moment, posted it on the internet and cried abuse. Would you want someone to judge you by that one moment of indiscretion? 

I think texasgal is right on! Abuse is a _very _subjective word that means something different to everyone. I don't think anyone here thinks the guy in the video was entirely in the right, but what most of us feel is that you can't entirely condemn him either based on the evidence given. 


P.S. BSMS I saw that picture and I was like "OMG it's the Man from Snowy River!" Glad they don't make them do that anymore yikes!


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## nrhareiner

Yes the term abuse is very subjective this is why each state has it very well defined under the law as does each association. This is where this needs to be handled not on the internet. THAT is my big problem with this.

Mildot from what I remember of your other posted you have not been riding very long and for most of that you where riding lesson horses. So really what is your knowlage coming from? I will tell you where mine is coming from. Over 15 years of breeding raising and showing NRHA level reining horses and not just Green reiner level either.

Next my perspective comes from a lot time spent in areas of work that by its very nature just leaving out 1 or2 words or changing them changes everything. You need ALL the facts and this video does not give ALL the facts. 

There is a thing going around FB and has been for some time. I do not have the time to go find it but this is the jist of it.

*A teacher put this sentence on the black board.*

*A woman with out her man is nothing and asked the students to punctuate it.*

*I ask you Mildot puctuate that for me.*


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## franknbeans

Interesting conversation today about this video. I was at my training barn, discussing this video, and the "scariness" for lack of a better word, that some one could take a 70 sec snippet of ANYTHING we do, and post it on the web like this. FYI-trainer and his wife were at that show. Assistant trainer speaks up and says that in Europe, apparently the animal rights folks will get not you for even trimming you r horses whiskers! THat was a new one by me. 

I see in my absence Mildot continues to traps at straw to justify this.......:?


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## Black Beauty 94

IMO, the guy should have not been jerking on his mouth after the horse dropped his head.

This horse looks very willing and wanting to please that man.

I just hope that he finds a way to stop jerking his reins, that horse doesn't need that. at all.


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## nrhareiner

Black Beauty 94 said:


> IMO, the guy should have not been jerking on his mouth after the horse dropped his head.
> 
> This horse looks very willing and wanting to please that man.
> 
> I just hope that he finds a way to stop jerking his reins, that horse doesn't need that. at all.


 
The problem is that dropping the head was not the end result that was wanted.

What the horse needs is to do what is asked of him. What would have helded is if the guy had mand his cues clearer but at the end of the day what was needed got better but not great. Just like anything or anyone. The clearer the instructions the better the out come.


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## reining girl

What he did was not an accident, but was certainly not abuse.


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## Ride

Was at the show. Saw the rider. Saw the horse. He was not a cruel man - the incident in question was not out of line. As has been pointed out - there is no representation given of the 'before' and 'after' moments, nor does anyone here know what the man was dealing with. The comments on Youtube have been threatening and there has been contact made to the people associated with the horse that could definitely be called an effort at intimidation. This is wrong and very scary - a threat to every horse owner / trainer / handler that may be out in the public eye. Those that judge - and those that post things like this on horse forums (often trainers themselves) are out of line. Shame on you all that did it and gave life to it without having complete knowledge of the situation. I joined this forum specifically to post on this as it is so completely unfair that I cannot fathom it.


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## nrhareiner

Ride

Welcome to the forum. Even though you joined to comment on this tread I hope you stay look around and join in.


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## Ride

oh vair oh said:


> Also, I'm sorry I opened this can of worms... I really should learn to just post pretty pictures of my horses in my own la-la-land than get into this stuff, so I'm sorry. I really do dislike controversial issues.


Then why did you? What purpose did it serve? Did you do anything other than try to make this man - who you do not know at all - try to look bad? Do you know about him? Do you know what he really does with horses? Or maybe you just posted a 70 second clip put on youtube by a person who says she / he is 15 years old - wealth of knowledge at that age dont you think? And do you now anything about that 15 year old? Does he or she have the background to validate the assessment and allegation of 'abuse'? Do you know that this video comments named a name and address and that now that persons name - if googled - comes up under a title of 'animal abuse'? Maybe you would like it if he or she came and did a minute long video of YOU on a horse and posted it with an 'expert' opinion? If that kid titles it right, you can protest it and get your name off of youtube but it will FOREVER be in cyberspace with that title of 'abuser' just waiting for someone to find it when they google your name. Innocent? Who cares! Nobody will ask your opinion - they will just see that title of 'abuser' by your name. Would you like that? Would you think it was fair? You - and those of you who posted harsh judgements - on here and on Youtube - have NO clue and yet you spoke up like you were right there watching the whole thing. You see 70 seconds and decide to go after somebody. What exactly WAS your purpose? The only good thing about it was that at least on this site there were/are people that gave a different point of view - people that refused to judge without knowing the entire story. Not so on Youtube where he was maligned publicly by people that think it is all done by 'whispering'. Of course, you dont really care about that do you? You or the other 'judges'...


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## muumi

Ride said:


> Then why did you? What purpose did it serve? Did you do anything other than try to make this man - who you do not know at all - try to look bad? Do you know about him? Do you know what he really does with horses? Or maybe you just posted a 70 second clip put on youtube by a person who says she / he is 15 years old - wealth of knowledge at that age dont you think? And do you now anything about that 15 year old? Does he or she have the background to validate the assessment and allegation of 'abuse'? Do you know that this video comments named a name and address and that now that persons name - if googled - comes up under a title of 'animal abuse'? Maybe you would like it if he or she came and did a minute long video of YOU on a horse and posted it with an 'expert' opinion? If that kid titles it right, you can protest it and get your name off of youtube but it will FOREVER be in cyberspace with that title of 'abuser' just waiting for someone to find it when they google your name. Innocent? Who cares! Nobody will ask your opinion - they will just see that title of 'abuser' by your name. Would you like that? Would you think it was fair? You - and those of you who posted harsh judgements - on here and on Youtube - have NO clue and yet you spoke up like you were right there watching the whole thing. You see 70 seconds and decide to go after somebody. What exactly WAS your purpose? The only good thing about it was that at least on this site there were/are people that gave a different point of view - people that refused to judge without knowing the entire story. Not so on Youtube where he was maligned publicly by people that think it is all done by 'whispering'. Of course, you dont really care about that do you? You or the other 'judges'...


Moral of story: don't do things in public you wouldn't want on youtube. Its not the OP, or any subsequent commenters fault for giving an opinion on something, whatever that opinion may be.
So no reason to get like this. In today's world, youtube and the internet is a fact of life, so don't act surprised by it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## texasgal

So are defamation lawsuits, and hate crimes .. we need to be careful when discussing situations we know nothing about ..... based on incomplete evidence..


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## Ride

Lets see - just watched the video again. At the beginning he pulls on the horse for a total of about 22 seconds. During that time, by the way, he was not constantly jerking - there were moments of pause and freedom given to the horse. And, if you know what you are looking at, you will see that the horse doesnt break over and give correctly at the beginning which is why he kept correcting the animal. Then he releases and smoothly asks for the spin. Corrects him again at about the 41 mark and continues off and on for about 5 seconds. Asks quietly again for the spin. Checks the horses response one more time after the second spin - for about three seconds. None of this was done from 'slack to snatch' as often seen with rough handed riders. He 'found' the horses mouth and then pulled - no snatching, not quick and rough. The timing and feel of this rider is superior. He is gentle with his spurs and effective with his legs or the horse would have flipped his nose UP instead of folding under. He does not have the horses mouth tied shut with a mouth closer of any kind. The horse opens his mouth a bit but doesnt desparately gape or struggle. There is no blood, no wild eyed fear or panic in the animal. The horse doesnt try to back away from the bit pressure. The horse folds up easily because the horses neck is put on to fold up easily - he is conformed that way. This man shows skill - not abuse. An entire video length of 70 seconds and the 'abuse' takes up about 30 seconds - and even that is not steady or unfair. You 'judges' out there - go out and ride a bit -wet some saddle blankets. Take your stop watch and set up a video camera to see how long you take to correct a horse. Bet it seems like you only pull for a second doesnt it? Why dont you video and then count the seconds - see what you learn about yourself and the real time it takes to get it across to the horse. Oh - and make sure you take that horse - make it a young green one - to a big show to do it. One that has lots of activity to distract him. See if he is as soft as you have him at home and responds as quickly. Hey - maybe you will get lucky and someone will video you so you dont have to get someone to do it for you. A stranger - perhaps one with an agenda who will then post you on a public forum or youtube with a title by your name or image calling you an abuser! Now THAT would be justice!


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## franknbeans

muumi said:


> Moral of story: don't do things in public you wouldn't want on youtube. Its not the OP, or any subsequent commenters fault for giving an opinion on something, whatever that opinion may be.
> So no reason to get like this. In today's world, youtube and the internet is a fact of life, so don't act surprised by it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No reason to get like what? You have not said word one this whole thread and NOW you decide to chime in?
OK-so you are saying that EVERY MINUTE you are riding you NEVER EVER "get after" a horse for not doing something THEY KNOW correctly? Really? So any one of us could watch you ride and never find a single minute (because that is how long this video is) when you disagree with your horse? You must be perfect then, and I find that hard to believe. Makes no difference to me what discipline you ride, how experienced you are, there is are times when we are working a horse trying to get them to do a maneuver they know.....but they refuse to do that day for whatever reason. Those of you who criticize without all the info-shame on you. THis should scare ALL of us. There are way too many crazed animal rights folks out there who think that an animals life is worth more than a humans. Keep that in mind. This was "schooling" at a show. Isn't that what schooling is? Correcting the horse and getting it right?

Welcome, Ride-the Youtube comments were horrible, and what was really bad was that none could comment without approval of the poster, so none could disagree. Certainly NOT freedom of speech.


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## muumi

Ride said:


> Lets see - just watched the video again. At the beginning he pulls on the horse for a total of about 22 seconds. During that time, by the way, he was not constantly jerking - there were moments of pause and freedom given to the horse. And, if you know what you are looking at, you will see that the horse doesnt break over and give correctly at the beginning which is why he kept correcting the animal. Then he releases and smoothly asks for the spin. Corrects him again at about the 41 mark and continues off and on for about 5 seconds. Asks quietly again for the spin. Checks the horses response one more time after the second spin - for about three seconds. None of this was done from 'slack to snatch' as often seen with rough handed riders. He 'found' the horses mouth and then pulled - no snatching, not quick and rough. The timing and feel of this rider is superior. He is gentle with his spurs and effective with his legs or the horse would have flipped his nose UP instead of folding under. He does not have the horses mouth tied shut with a mouth closer of any kind. The horse opens his mouth a bit but doesnt desparately gape or struggle. There is no blood, no wild eyed fear or panic in the animal. The horse doesnt try to back away from the bit pressure. The horse folds up easily because the horses neck is put on to fold up easily - he is conformed that way. This man shows skill - not abuse. An entire video length of 70 seconds and the 'abuse' takes up about 30 seconds - and even that is not steady or unfair. You 'judges' out there - go out and ride a bit -wet some saddle blankets. Take your stop watch and set up a video camera to see how long you take to correct a horse. Bet it seems like you only pull for a second doesnt it? Why dont you video and then count the seconds - see what you learn about yourself and the real time it takes to get it across to the horse. Oh - and make sure you take that horse - make it a young green one - to a big show to do it. One that has lots of activity to distract him. See if he is as soft as you have him at home and responds as quickly. Hey - maybe you will get lucky and someone will video you so you dont have to get someone to do it for you. A stranger - perhaps one with an agenda who will then post you on a public forum or youtube with a title by your name or image calling you an abuser! Now THAT would be justice!


Well then seek out and shout at the person who filmed this clip and posted it on youtube... That would be the guilty party.
Everyone on here is just honestly commenting on what they are seeing: pro or con. Which is not a crime. And I would hate for anyone to stop questioning things, because some people would tell them that's wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## muumi

franknbeans said:


> No reason to get like what? You have not said word one this whole thread and NOW you decide to chime in?
> OK-so you are saying that EVERY MINUTE you are riding you NEVER EVER "get after" a horse for not doing something THEY KNOW correctly? Really? So any one of us could watch you ride and never find a single minute (because that is how long this video is) when you disagree with your horse? You must be perfect then, and I find that hard to believe. Makes no difference to me what discipline you ride, how experienced you are, there is are times when we are working a horse trying to get them to do a maneuver they know.....but they refuse to do that day for whatever reason. Those of you who criticize without all the info-shame on you. THis should scare ALL of us. There are way too many crazed animal rights folks out there who think that an animals life is worth more than a humans. Keep that in mind. This was "schooling" at a show. Isn't that what schooling is? Correcting the horse and getting it right?
> 
> Welcome, Ride-the Youtube comments were horrible, and what was really bad was that none could comment without approval of the poster, so none could disagree. Certainly NOT freedom of speech.


Hey!! I've been following this thread legitimately! I think I even commented a few times up front!

I'm not perfect, and I accept in this day and age I can be shouted at for my weaknesses on youtube as much as the next dude. That is the world we live in.

All I'm saying is, don't bully the people on this forum for being concerned... They did not take this video and post it! Find THAT person and shout at them!!

Everyone here may have an opinion. Its a forum. That's the absolute beauty of it. Even me! Even if I haven't been involved enough for your satisfaction...
Let's not fight this on here... Its not really our fight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## franknbeans

I think we should all be horrified that any random person can post something like this and not even have to identify themselves. I thought one of our basic rights was to face our accusers. This poor guy has been tried and found guilty by the court of public opinion because of someones' out of context video and accusations. That, to me is scary. I sure am glad they are not around when I have one of those 
'come to Jesus" minutes with one of my animals.


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## Ride

muumi said:


> Well then seek out and shout at the person who filmed this clip and posted it on youtube... That would be the guilty party.
> Everyone on here is just honestly commenting on what they are seeing: pro or con. Which is not a crime. And I would hate for anyone to stop questioning things, because some people would tell them that's wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Do you think that it is that easy? Youtube has a privacy policy that protects - that is both good and bad. In this case it is bad. It is not me in the video but I do know who it was and I know the person is not just good but great with horses - very kind. Correction is not wrong. No horse is trained by whispering no matter what the uninformed think. Animals correct animals so why is it suddenly wrong for humans to correct animals? Do we think that bits and spurs give 'comfort'? Are saddles inhumane? Where does it end? As for honest comments - those would have to be born of knowledge rather than uninformed judgement. That is why in the courts they call upon a 'jury of peers'. On Youtube we see judgement passed primarily by non horse people yet it has the power through the sheer force of visibility to endanger and damage. Why do you think I do not post there? Giving it life by posting on Youtube could cause the people related to this video even more grief. So I came here - easy to find lots of places that this video is being shown. This is the only place where there was some 'peer' activity rather than a bunch of wannabes with no knowledge. So I post and you come along and scorn me? Do you find it annoying that I am commenting on what I am seeing / reading? Do you see me as not having the right to comment and question? You tell ME to go seek and 'shout' at the person who posted it on youtube? Do you want ME to go away? How interesting and telling is that?


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## muumi

franknbeans said:


> I think we should all be horrified that any random person can post something like this and not even have to identify themselves. I thought one of our basic rights was to face our accusers. This poor guy has been tried and found guilty by the court of public opinion because of someones' out of context video and accusations. That, to me is scary. I sure am glad they are not around when I have one of those
> 'come to Jesus" minutes with one of my animals.


Yes it is scary. I would hate someone witnessing one of my moments with their bare eyes, nevermind a video camera

But that's life these days, I guess.

But I don't think that rider was found guilty on this forum, it was evenly spread and debated.

Maybe on youtube it was another story. I didn't go on there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ride

muumi said:


> Hey!! I've been following this thread legitimately! I think I even commented a few times up front!
> 
> I'm not perfect, and I accept in this day and age I can be shouted at for my weaknesses on youtube as much as the next dude. That is the world we live in.
> 
> All I'm saying is, don't bully the people on this forum for being concerned... They did not take this video and post it! Find THAT person and shout at them!!
> 
> Everyone here may have an opinion. Its a forum. That's the absolute beauty of it. Even me! Even if I haven't been involved enough for your satisfaction...
> Let's not fight this on here... Its not really our fight.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 
Okay - I get where you are coming from in certain ways, but to say I bullied someone by calling them out for bullying another is not exactly balanced.


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## muumi

Ride said:


> Do you think that it is that easy? Youtube has a privacy policy that protects - that is both good and bad. In this case it is bad. It is not me in the video but I do know who it was and I know the person is not just good but great with horses - very kind. Correction is not wrong. No horse is trained by whispering no matter what the uninformed think. Animals correct animals so why is it suddenly wrong for humans to correct animals? Do we think that bits and spurs give 'comfort'? Are saddles inhumane? Where does it end? As for honest comments - those would have to be born of knowledge rather than uninformed judgement. That is why in the courts they call upon a 'jury of peers'. On Youtube we see judgement passed primarily by non horse people yet it has the power through the sheer force of visibility to endanger and damage. Why do you think I do not post there? Giving it life by posting on Youtube could cause the people related to this video even more grief. So I came here - easy to find lots of places that this video is being shown. This is the only place where there was some 'peer' activity rather than a bunch of wannabes with no knowledge. So I post and you come along and scorn me? Do you find it annoying that I am commenting on what I am seeing / reading? Do you see me as not having the right to comment and question? You tell ME to go seek and 'shout' at the person who posted it on youtube? Do you want ME to go away? How interesting and telling is that?


I don't want you to go away, and I do not scorn you at all!

I just really think the OP had pure intentions when posting this. 

Prob just feeling a bit protective of the OP here, but I'm not denying you your opinion.

Why am I even 'fighting'?! I'm don't even feel that strongly about the video at all!
(Laughs at self)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

I think we all can agree that 70 seconds out of a schooling session can be taken out of context.

Do I think this is abuse? No

Do I think his timing and hands are superior? No
But neither are mine.

Do I think there are better ways to achieve what he was after? Yes
But there are different methods and different trainers for a reason, not all horses are the same and respond to the type of schooling or correction. 

Sure it would be so much easier to put horses and personalities into one catagory but it doesn't work that way.

And why should anyone have hide the correction of a horse at a show or in public? Horses need to be corrected, they don't come out of the womb trained. Otherwise I would of bought four wheelers rather than horses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## muumi

Ride said:


> Okay - I get where you are coming from in certain ways, but to say I bullied someone by calling them out for bullying another is not exactly balanced.


No, I apologise... It seems my presence right now on here is just stirring, and that's not my intention at all!

You see, its my birthday today, and I guess because of that I guess I felt I had this momentary power to resolve all issues and make good in the world, ha ha!

I will stop now, and leave this thread to you guys... I'm not very good at all this it seems.

Please just don't misunderstand my intentions here though. They are good.
(Leaves to go eat more cake)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bsms

Pure intentions or not, the OP gave extra visibility to a video that shows a whopping 70" of something.

The other day, I was walking Mia out & about on a lead rope, trying to get her used to windy days. When she started calling to the other horses, I backed her up about 100 feet. That is what I've found works best for getting her attention without upsetting her.

Someone could have taken a video of me slapping her on her chest with my hand and backing her up, and call THAT abuse - and then my name could be linked with animal abuse on the web. Most of my neighbors know me as the guy who is always out working with his horse...but then, THAT isn't what would be posted. Just bsms, animal abuser.

And before someone helps spread that sort of rumor, I think they have a responsibility to LEARN the facts first...


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## Ride

"Just saw that video recently going around and I still don't see the sense in this sort of "training technique", even as a WP trainer. If anyone can explain the mental and physical reasoning for trashing a horse's mouth in a positive light, then have at it."

The comments of Oh Vair Oh (above) cannot be taken to be of pure intention. They bash without knowledge as do many of the comments here. It is bad enough to see that stuff on Youtube but the ignorance there would make you expect it. Here, however, we see 'professionals' such as the OP commenting on something taken out of context with the same uninformed judgement. And she -as well as others that ride - should know better. 

Again - I was there - I saw this man, this horse, the situation before and after and do not feel he was not unfair. He handled the horse very well and the animal was calmer and more aligned to do his job after the man rode and schooled him. Judge his hands if you know how to look at a horses reactions. The animal is showing a calmer demeanor after the rider is done with him than before. Oh - but wait - we dont get to see that here do we? BECAUSE THE VIDEO DOES NOT SHOW IT! The video begins with a spin - nothing before that. Could it be that there was something more prior to the decision to spin and then correct the animal? I can tell you that I saw a nervous, distracted young horse that wanted to be good but wasnt relaxed till after this man rode him and got his attention. Simple as that. If he had to be a bit tougher with his rein aids than 'ideal' to get the horse relaxed then perhaps that was what was needed. The animal sure looks chilled and calm as it walks away - not jittery a bit. I guess he could have just let the animal walk around worried and concerned or he could have drugged him silly instead of dealing with him straight up. I only wish I could get a horse relaxed and 'with me' in just over a minute - even if I had to bump him a bit to do it. The guy did a great job with the horse and was not cruel or out of line at all. He was a great rider and yes -had great hands - hands appropriate to the task he was faced with.


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## Ride

Actually I am not unhappy with the results of the OPs post even though her comments are not on target or of 'pure intent'. The Youtube comments are downright frightening. At least here there are folks that ride and 'get it'. Thank you to those that have stood up to speak with justice rather than commenting in ignorance or harsh judgement.


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## natisha

muumi said:


> No, I apologise... It seems my presence right now on here is just stirring, and that's not my intention at all!
> 
> You see, its my birthday today, and I guess because of that I guess I felt I had this momentary power to resolve all issues and make good in the world, ha ha!
> 
> I will stop now, and leave this thread to you guys... I'm not very good at all this it seems.
> 
> Please just don't misunderstand my intentions here though. They are good.
> (Leaves to go eat more cake)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Happy Birthday. What kind of cake?


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## AshleyCL

This actually made me cringe. I don't care about the behavior that preceded this "technique"- an adult man should not be yanking a horse's mouth like that _ever. 

_That said, ABUSE is spelled with only ONE "b."


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## nrhareiner

AshleyCL said:


> This actually made me cringe. I don't care about the behavior that preceded this "technique"- an adult man should not be yanking a horse's mouth like that _ever. _
> 
> That said, ABUSE is spelled with only ONE "b."


 
That would only be true if this was actualy abuse. He was not yanking and it was very very fare from abuse.


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## nrhareiner

Ride said:


> Actually I am not unhappy with the results of the OPs post even though her comments are not on target or of 'pure intent'. The Youtube comments are downright frightening. At least here there are folks that ride and 'get it'. Thank you to those that have stood up to speak with justice rather than commenting in ignorance or harsh judgement.


 
I have found that threads like this can be a good learning tool for people who actually wish to learn.


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## AshleyCL

nrhareiner said:


> That would only be true if this was actualy abuse. He was not yanking and it was very very fare from abuse.


He was pulling back with full force...jerking on both sides. You keep your opinion, and I'll have mine. I'm just surprised that horse let him stay seated.


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## nrhareiner

AshleyCL said:


> He was pulling back with full force...jerking on both sides. You keep your opinion, and I'll have mine. I'm just surprised that horse let him stay seated.


This is not just for you but for all those who seem to think he is jurking or yanking. 

How may reiners have you worked riden and or trained? How many truly finished horses have you been on?

I am watching this video as a reiner watching anouther reiner working a horse out of a problem. Look at is from that point of view and you may actually learn something.


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## SorrelHorse

We already had the yanking debate, let's not bring it back up.


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## AshleyCL

nrhareiner said:


> This is not just for you but for all those who seem to think he is jurking or yanking.
> 
> How may reiners have you worked riden and or trained? How many truly finished horses have you been on?
> 
> I am watching this video as a reiner watching anouther reiner working a horse out of a problem. Look at is from that point of view and you may actually learn something.


I've seen reining trainers with incredibly soft hands and a directed seat that achieve the same goal. If you can come up with another term for what that man is doing with his hands, be my guest. It appears to me that it's the "trainer" who needs to be worked out of a problem. Both rider and horse seem green, and we all know that's not an ideal combination.


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## franknbeans

AshleyCL said:


> He was pulling back with full force...jerking on both sides. You keep your opinion, and I'll have mine. I'm just surprised that horse let him stay seated.


Ok, and did you see before and after this 70 seconds? Do you ever correct your horse(s) or are they perfect butterfly and rainbow unicorns of some sort? 

As much as you may think otherwise, there are times when horses need more pressure than some people are comfortable with. Again, I would ask you to watch how rough they are with each other, and rethink. We are 10% of their weight, on average. I can also say that, after talking to 4 people I personally know who were at that show (trainer and his assistants) who had riders competing with this rider-it was so memorable on the "abuse" scale they had no clue who I was talking about. Had this guy been actually doing something inappropriate, he would have been turned in at that show-not a MONTH later, on youboob. Take a look sometime at the suspended members list of the NRHA (the governing organization for this show), as NRHA has mentioned. It is an extensive list, and they do NOT take ACTUAL cause lightly. This WAS NOT actual abuse.
I also had a "moment" with mine last week, as we all have, and I will guarantee you that some unknowing person would have gasped. Did it correct a stubborn horse and get him to do what he knows? Yes. Will it possibly keep him from his "testy" behavior in the future? I sure hope so. We all have this moments that we have to get their attention and respect or we stand to be a stain in the arena. Period.
Oh-and I did have to back it up with a yank-I do not take that lightly, but sometimes you have to to get their attention and get them to do what they know how, but are being too distracted or stubborn to do.

Oh-and we all misspell, to correct spelling is just picky and being argumentative. You knew what was meant, right? So let it go, unless you are perfect.


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## COWCHICK77

AshleyCL said:


> I've seen reining trainers with incredibly soft hands and a directed seat that achieve the same goal. If you can come up with another term for what that man is doing with his hands, be my guest. It appears to me that it's the "trainer" who needs to be worked out of a problem. Both rider and horse seem green, and we all know that's not an ideal combination.


He was not a trainer, from my understanding, a rookie reiner of under three years.


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## franknbeans

AshleyCL said:


> I've seen reining trainers with incredibly soft hands and a directed seat that achieve the same goal. If you can come up with another term for what that man is doing with his hands, be my guest. It appears to me that it's the "trainer" who needs to be worked out of a problem. Both rider and horse seem green, and we all know that's not an ideal combination.


And how do you think they got that way? Butterfly kisses? You have to escalate the pressure until you get a result. Is it not possible that there a was escalation PRIOR to the 70 seconds shown? I will guarantee you that(as an example) I tried everything I knew with mine last week.....but until I used my spur to get him to respect my leg and rein-he was having none of it. Afterwards-he was super soft. Picture perfect. He learned that when I say turn, he needs to TURN NOW! Oh-and along the way-yes, I had to reinforce my leg with a yank on the reins. I did not have to do it much. He got the message. Do I take that lightly-no, but I now know how to make him do what he knows when he is being a butt.


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## AshleyCL

franknbeans said:


> And how do you think they got that way? Butterfly kisses? You have to escalate the pressure until you get a result. Is it not possible that there a was escalation PRIOR to the 70 seconds shown? I will guarantee you that(as an example) I tried everything I knew with mine last week.....but until I used my spur to get him to respect my leg and rein-he was having none of it. Afterwards-he was super soft. Picture perfect. He learned that when I say turn, he needs to TURN NOW! Oh-and along the way-yes, I had to reinforce my leg with a yank on the reins. I did not have to do it much. He got the message. Do I take that lightly-no, but I now know how to make him do what he knows when he is being a butt.


Yes, I use butterfly kisses. And that's _your_ method...go for it. I would not be as heavy handed...I'm quite aware of how pressure and reinforcements work and I use them as well, just not in that manner. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. All there is to it.


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## nrhareiner

AshleyCL said:


> I've seen reining trainers with incredibly soft hands and a directed seat that achieve the same goal. If you can come up with another term for what that man is doing with his hands, be my guest. It appears to me that it's the "trainer" who needs to be worked out of a problem. Both rider and horse seem green, and we all know that's not an ideal combination.


Yes there are many many reining trainers who have very soft hands however that is the key work TRAINER which this guy is not. He is a Rookie/non Pro reiner. You know that person who actually works at anouther job to afford to be able to own, ride, and show a horse.

That was very fare from yanking or snatching at the bit. He was making contact then pulling on the reins to get a desired affect.


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## SorrelHorse

AshleyCL said:


> Yes, I use butterfly kisses. And that's _your_ method...go for it. I would not be as heavy handed...I'm quite aware of how pressure and reinforcements work and I use them as well, just not in that manner. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. All there is to it.


I'd love to see videos of the end result of a horse you have trained start to finish with these "butterfly kisses". Care to put up or shut up....?


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## franknbeans

We keep asking for videos...noone is taking us up on it......hmmm.:think:


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## AshleyCL

SorrelHorse said:


> I'd love to see videos of the end result of a horse you have trained start to finish with these "butterfly kisses". Care to put up or shut up....?


Jesus H. 
I re-quoted the butterfly kisses as sarcasm. I haven't trained a horse start to finish because I, unlike this amateur, know my limits. Never said I have. My horse has his faults, like any other, and I handle it with strength and firmness. I do not use a heavy hand in my horse's mouth to provide a correction because that is MY way. It's so nice to know you can post an opinion on here without getting bombarded by top professionals who know absolutely everything.


----------



## natisha

franknbeans said:


> We keep asking for videos...noone is taking us up on it......hmmm.:think:


I'll take you up on it. I'm getting a lesson from someone I give lessons to. Try to find fault if you can.:wink:


----------



## franknbeans

natisha said:


> I'll take you up on it. I'm getting a lesson from someone I give lessons to. Try to find fault if you can.:wink:
> 
> Natisha's lesson - YouTube


Would it be possible for some one to actually be asking a horse to DO something? I can put a monkey on my horse and he will do that too.:wink:


----------



## SorrelHorse

Exactly....your limits. I have ridden reiners my entire life. I am a trainer believe it or not, though I do mainly train barrel horses and teach lessons to beginners. There are days when things get ugly. Horses are like children; you are their parents. It is not the parents job to be the child's BFF. Just the other day my finished reining mare tried to pull some stuff on me because she was feeling fresh and full of herself. She has has this attitude since she was a baby. She tried to run me over when I was leading her and I turned around and hit her hard on the chest with the lead. She jumped backwards and reared. Is that abuse? What if when I tried to spin her and she got lazy so I had to give her an extra hard spurring to get a response. Is that abuse too? Should I just continue to let her do those frankly dangerous things? Do you have another way you can offer me miss butterfly kisses? I have seen many a horse get kicked hard in the face and mouth by their pasturemates and have absolutely no problems with pain afterwards. They are stronger than you think they are. So strong that we need to demand their respect for both of our sakes.

If you have never had to get after a horse for something you are the luckiest person alive to have such angelic horses. 

We have already said *repetitively *that we do not agree with the way the man uses his hands. *But this is a FAR cry from "yanking" and "abuse". *


----------



## SorrelHorse

natisha said:


> I'll take you up on it. I'm getting a lesson from someone I give lessons to. Try to find fault if you can.:wink:
> 
> Natisha's lesson - YouTube


:rofl: I love you sometimes.


----------



## natisha

SorrelHorse said:


> :rofl: I love you sometimes.


Thanks. Sometimes is better than never :lol:


----------



## AshleyCL

SorrelHorse said:


> Exactly....your limits. I have ridden reiners my entire life. I am a trainer believe it or not, though I do mainly train barrel horses and teach lessons to beginners. There are days when things get ugly. Horses are like children; you are their parents. It is not the parents job to be the child's BFF. Just the other day my finished reining mare tried to pull some stuff on me because she was feeling fresh and full of herself. She has has this attitude since she was a baby. She tried to run me over when I was leading her and I turned around and hit her hard on the chest with the lead. She jumped backwards and reared. Is that abuse? What if when I tried to spin her and she got lazy so I had to give her an extra hard spurring to get a response. Is that abuse too? Should I just continue to let her do those frankly dangerous things? Do you have another way you can offer me miss butterfly kisses? I have seen many a horse get kicked hard in the face and mouth by their pasturemates and have absolutely no problems with pain afterwards. They are stronger than you think they are. So strong that we need to demand their respect for both of our sakes.
> 
> If you have never had to get after a horse for something you are the luckiest person alive to have such angelic horses.
> 
> We have already said *repetitively *that we do not agree with the way the man uses his hands. *But this is a FAR cry from "yanking" and "abuse". *


Not sure why my having a different opinion than you is such a big deal or why you have to resort to name calling to get a point across, but have at it. I handle things differently.


----------



## NdAppy

AshleyCL said:


> Not sure why my having a different opinion than you is such a big deal or why you have to resort to name calling to get a point across, but have at it. I handle things differently.


Where is the name calling?

BTW how do you know for sure your trainer doesn't "abuse" your horses when they are riding them without you there? (using abuse in the sense you are. I, personally, do not see abuse in the original video...)


----------



## Ride

AshleyCL said:


> Jesus H.
> I re-quoted the butterfly kisses as sarcasm. I haven't trained a horse start to finish because I, unlike this amateur, know my limits. Never said I have. My horse has his faults, like any other, and I handle it with strength and firmness. I do not use a heavy hand in my horse's mouth to provide a correction because that is MY way. It's so nice to know you can post an opinion on here without getting bombarded by top professionals who know absolutely everything.


So why exactly do you need to say 'Jesus H'. Are you seeking to offend? If you are, then congrats, cause I dont care for it and found it offensive. Disagreeing about things is one thing - even if vehemently stated. I might have tolerated it if you had been trying to be offensive about the subject at hand because it is evident that some people will do that to defend their 'stance' and will judge even if they havent the knowledge base to do so. But the intent of your 'expression' was uncalled for and quite rude toward those of us that believe in Jesus as God. That kind of hate language is uncalled for. You dont need to do that to express yourself do you?


----------



## bsms

AshleyCL said:


> He was pulling back with full force...jerking on both sides. You keep your opinion, and I'll have mine...


Opinions are one thing, but facts are another. He was NOT pulling back with full force. With a pulley rein, you use full force. What I did in post 61:










was pretty close to full force - as close to full force as I plan on ever coming. And when he stopped running (we had already done about 10 laps), I released. Then he ran again, and I pulled again. And we repeated until he decided to pay attention.

I sure look horrible. But in context of what had happened (read post 61 for details), it made sense and it worked. My daughter-in-law is riding him right now...and he is listening to the bit. And the reason he is listening is because it is better to listen than to refuse. That is what I mean when I say that sometimes you have to go where you don't want to go, so that the horse won't want to go there either.

And in terms of pain, I suspect the horse in the video is being hurt less than he would if hit with a crop. The force used was well below "full force". 

My little mustang, being an ex-lesson horse, has a tough mouth. We are working on softening him. I poured an entire jar of butterfly kisses on his mouth, but it didn't work - so we're back to giving the horse choices and waiting for him to make the better one.

The problem with a snapshot or a short video is context. In a corral, Cowboy comes to me for pets, as do all the horses. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the horse in the video LIKES his rider. But without seeing how his horse behaves outside of that clip, we cannot know.

Context.


----------



## AshleyCL

Ride said:


> So why exactly do you need to say 'Jesus H'. Are you seeking to offend? If you are, then congrats, cause I dont care for it and found it offensive. Disagreeing about things is one thing - even if vehemently stated. I might have tolerated it if you had been trying to be offensive about the subject at hand because it is evident that some people will do that to defend their 'stance' and will judge even if they havent the knowledge base to do so. But the intent of your 'expression' was uncalled for and quite rude toward those of us that believe in Jesus as God. That kind of hate language is uncalled for. You dont need to do that to express yourself do you?


There wasn't hate, and I don't consider it to be hateful. It's used in frustration. Sorry if it's offensive to you; it's not to me.


----------



## SorrelHorse

AshleyCL said:


> Not sure why my having a different opinion than you is such a big deal or why you have to resort to name calling to get a point across, but have at it. I handle things differently.


 
I say my opiion because you are not the only person reading this thread. I do not direct everything at you because some people could also benefit from what we have to say.

I don't see where I ever called you a name but thanks for the accusation....


----------



## AshleyCL

SorrelHorse said:


> I say my opiion because you are not the only person reading this thread. I do not direct everything at you because some people could also benefit from what we have to say.
> 
> I don't see where I ever called you a name but thanks for the accusation....


"miss butterfly kisses", a term I didn't even bring into this. Implying that I think horses are all rainbows and sunshine. It's meant to be snarky, and that's fine.


----------



## NdAppy

Would love to have you answer my question...


----------



## bsms

BTW - just checked on my daughter-in-law riding our little mustang. 100 lb gal using leg for turns. Slack in the rein. Best I've seen Cowboy behave in the 4 months we've had him...


----------



## AshleyCL

NdAppy said:


> Would love to have you answer my question...


I don't need a trainer to ride my horse, and no one rides him without me there. The techniques I use work just fine.


----------



## franknbeans

SorrelHorse said:


> I say my opiion because you are not the only person reading this thread. I do not direct everything at you because some people could also benefit from what we have to say.
> 
> I don't see where I ever called you a name but thanks for the accusation....


We may be a bit sensitive-we are used to butterflies, you know........:wink:

**Apologies ahead of time-I am tired of people who do not ride reiners, and only see the "super soft" that is on the show ring.....give their "opinions. THey have NO CLUE what it takes to actually GET there.


----------



## SorrelHorse

AshleyCL said:


> I don't need a trainer to ride my horse, and no one rides him without me there. The techniques I use work just fine.


Soooo you have never had a trainer to teach you how to train, or you just got too good for one, or what...?


----------



## AshleyCL

franknbeans said:


> We may be a bit sensitive-we are used to butterflies, you know........:wink:
> 
> **Apologies ahead of time-I am tired of people who do not ride reiners, and only see the "super soft" that is on the show ring.....give their "opinions. THey have NO CLUE what it takes to actually GET there.


Fabulous. Great that you believe that. I don't agree with it and it's the last time I'm going to defend my opinion, which I am completely entitled to. I don't know what's confusing about that.


----------



## SorrelHorse

AshleyCL said:


> Fabulous. Great that you believe that. I don't agree with it and it's the last time I'm going to defend my opinion, which I am completely entitled to. I don't know what's confusing about that.


You are totally entitled to your opinion. I don't see whats so hard to understand about the fact that we aren't all posting for YOUR benefit, we're posting for the benefit of *everyone who will ever read this thread.*


----------



## AshleyCL

SorrelHorse said:


> Soooo you have never had a trainer to teach you how to train, or you just got too good for one, or what...?


I board WITH a trainer, and I've been learning under other trainers for the last ten years. She still doesn't need to ride my horse, because I know what to do. I never said to be too good for any help, and I certainly don't claim to know everything...all I said was that _I disagree with this method. _


----------



## Clayton Taffy

SorrelHorse said:


> Soooo you have never had a trainer to teach you how to train, or you just got too good for one, or what...?


 Not everyone needs a trainer or wants one!


----------



## AshleyCL

SorrelHorse said:


> You are totally entitled to your opinion. I don't see whats so hard to understand about the fact that we aren't all posting for YOUR benefit, we're posting for the benefit of *everyone who will ever read this thread.*


And yet you keep directing them at me, and getting jabs in where you can.


----------



## bsms

Years ago, my Mom told me everyone was entitled to an opinion. I replied that while everyone could HAVE an opinion, it required experience and knowledge for someone to be ENTITLED to an opinion.

Just FWIW. My Mom just got mad, but she had to forgive me because she was my Mom...


----------



## franknbeans

I would suggest, that in this particular discilpine-you need one. ( a trainer, that is). At least if you don't want to look like an idiot. Other disciplines I have ridden-not so much.
But-it you are not IN this discipline, you would not know that, would you?


----------



## Ride

[/QUOTE]BTW how do you know for sure your trainer doesn't "abuse" your horses when they are riding them without you there? (using abuse in the sense you are. I, personally, do not see abuse in the original video...)[/QUOTE]

Actually I have seen that most trainers HAVE to pull and flex on horses after the amateur has ridden the animal. The so called 'soft hands' of the amateur are acutally static and uneducated in some cases - many cases - and create defensive postures that a trainer then has to work to break through. If the hands of the man in the video had been as harsh as the general thought is, the horse would not have softened more - he would have braced. Instead the horse actually lowers his poll and gets MORE relaxed. 

And just because you dont see him kicking like a son of a gun dont assume he wasnt using his legs. If his legs had not been supporting the pulling on the reins the horse would have either tossed his head, backed away / run backwards, or stiffened and braced instead of lowering the poll and complying. 

He had good timing and a good sense of what the horse needed and he got it done quickly and efficiently. He didnt 'pick' and 'beg'. He asked, then reinforced and therefore he was done in a minute. And in that minute of time, the longest time he pulled on him lasted about 22 seconds - and even in that time there was not constant correction. Pretty good if you ask me. The horse was better when he was done with him than he was before he schooled him. As I have said repeatedly - I saw this horse and I saw this rider right there in front of me as I was riding at that very show. He was not abusive. He was not a stupid rider with no purpose. He actually settled that animal and did right by him. 

If people looked at the animal rather than thought like humans they would see that the animal was not stressing or concerned in the least. Most beginners anthropomorphize way too much. It is not a service to the animals.


----------



## AshleyCL

bsms said:


> Years ago, my Mom told me everyone was entitled to an opinion. I replied that while everyone could HAVE an opinion, it required experience and knowledge for someone to be ENTITLED to an opinion.
> 
> Just FWIW. My Mom just got mad, but she had to forgive me because she was my Mom...


Which, coincidentally, is your opinion :?


----------



## SorrelHorse

AshleyCL said:


> And yet you keep directing them at me, and getting jabs in where you can.


 
Do you actually ride reiners at all?

btw, don't worry, I'm nicer to my actual students.


----------



## AshleyCL

franknbeans said:


> I would suggest, that in this particular discilpine-you need one. ( a trainer, that is). At least if you don't want to look like an idiot. Other disciplines I have ridden-not so much.
> But-it you are not IN this discipline, you would not know that, would you?


Ohhh you got me. So now you can't disagree with a method because you don't practice the discipline? I guess you can't have parenting opinions without having kids either, huh?


----------



## SorrelHorse

AshleyCL said:


> Ohhh you got me. So now you can't disagree with a method because you don't practice the discipline? I guess you can't have parenting opinions without having kids either, huh?


So you have never trained a reiner, correct? I'm not saying you can't have an opinion. I'm just saying until you've done it you're only using half the information to base an opinion.


----------



## franknbeans

AshleyCL said:


> Ohhh you got me. So now you can't disagree with a method because you don't practice the discipline? I guess you can't have parenting opinions without having kids either, huh?


That would actually be accurate. if you know nothing about it, you should not criticize it. I raised twins and lived thru it. Not many will ever criticize me-since they have never had teenagers.

have you ever even BEEN on a well trained reiner? I would guess you would be hanging on and screaming like a girl.:wink:
but that is just a guess.:wink:


----------



## Lockwood

(I like to shout at the movie while watching... and munchin' popcorn)

head * desk

To those who defend/don't oppose what the guy did-

Not everyone thinks that this is ok. They view it as yanking, or not being very nice. They were raised/trained/or beleive that way because their horse/riding dicipline/experience doeasn't call for treating a horse that way and anyone who does is harsh. You are NOT going to change their mind even with all the explanations in the world. Period.

To those who oppose/dissaprove/are upset by what the guy did- 

There are many diciplines out there were people treat their horses like that, or in manners similar to that all the time. Telling someone who was raised/trained/taught to be heavy handed or harsh that they are being "heavy handed" or "harsh" is like talking to a brick wall. They don't see it that way and will never see it that way. It is normal and what they are used to.

Some folks have no problems shooting an animal and call it hunting. It is their culture and they think it is perfectly ok. You will never convince them it is wrong.

Some folks would be physically ill if they even witnessed/seen pictures of the game killed or someone hunting, let alone actually trying to shoot one. It is their culture and what they beleive. You will never convince them it is right or ok. 

Or the... ... Fluffy rainbow trainer/clinicians VS the Direct, respect driven trainer/clinician ongoing debate.

23 pages so far...... Anyone see the parallels here....? :think:


----------



## AshleyCL

SorrelHorse said:


> So you have never trained a reiner, correct? I'm not saying you can't have an opinion. I'm just saying until you've done it you're only using half the information to base an opinion.


Nope. And all I'm saying is that in my opinion, that man used too much force in the horse's mouth. It's really not any more complicated than that and if I did train reiners, I would maintain the opinion. I hate seeing that kind of force put into a horse's mouth, regardless of the horse's strength or behavior.


----------



## AshleyCL

franknbeans said:


> That would actually be accurate. if you know nothing about it, you should not criticize it. I raised twins and lived thru it. Not many will ever criticize me-since they have never had teenagers.
> 
> have you ever even BEEN on a well trained reiner? I would guess you would be hanging on and screaming like a girl.:wink:
> but that is just a guess.:wink:


Actually have been on a reiner, and no screaming, thanks. I'm not a screaming kind of girl.


----------



## SorrelHorse

I give up. At this point I'd just be repeating myself.


----------



## franknbeans

Yup-me too. THey just don't get it-the good news is, they will never be competition. Our horses will always be the responsive well trained ones who are soft. They will always try to get there.


----------



## tinyliny

I LOVE that paint horse in Natisha's lesson ! her trot is just perfect for WP. it's slow, rythmic but still has a very brief moment of suspension. 
And Natisha bring new levels of grace and elegance to riding on her seatbones.


----------



## Ride

This has been entertaining. I would even find it amusing if I did not know the people involved, had not seen the actual show events, and known of the threats that innocent folks had gotten related to this video that was posted by an uninformed idiot that chose to post a 'snippet' of what actually was going on. 

I think I will go rest now. I have horses to ride tomorrow. No worries - I will not use ANY form of restraint on them as I now know that any form of pulling, spurs, etc would be subject to public scrutiny and therefore I might end up on the net being maligned by those whose only hope of getting respect in the horse community is to stay behind the computer and stay out of the competitive arena where they would have to prove the worth of their opinions. Yep - tomorrow I plan on getting on those horse bareback - them sans saddle and me in the buff lest the seam of my jeans irritate their delicate skin. I shall use my bare butt and my legs and back to cue them and hope for the best. 

Oh - and if things go awry - if one gets chargey or tries to run off or buck or something like that - I will 'whisper' really really hard at him and hope he hears me...


----------



## bsms

Ride said:


> ...I shall use my bare butt and my legs and back to cue them and hope for the best...


Fart in Morse code. Just pour a few ounces of butterfly kiss juice on their backs first...


----------



## franknbeans

Oh-and if your horse doesn't agree, perhaps it needs a nap and a cookie. Tomorrow IS tuesday, you know, and the reining trainers I know are off on Monday, meaning lots of extra energy on Tuesday for the horses.

I am sure you can do it-bareback-like Stacy Westfall......I am sure she never did anything but whisper in Roxy's ear like in the video, huh? No real training went into that...I think they must have just "joined up" by sitting in the pasture.:wink:
Oh-and I would LOVE some popcorn, just prefer more attractive company than that guy-sorry.:shock:


----------



## ~*~anebel~*~

bsms said:


> Fart in Morse code. Just pour a few ounces of butterfly kiss juice on their backs first...


I heard a drop of iodine on the withers is supposed to act as a tranquilizer.. is that what you're referring to?? Lol. :lol:


Still hands are not always soft hands.


Ask any well respected trainer in any discipline or sport or trick riding or dealing with horses in general and they will tell you that being firm, and emphasizing your point once is far nicer to the horse than nagging them the whole ride. Sometimes when training we have to be "cruel" to be kind, and I think it's the lack of this train of thought in the current trend of child rearing that is the reason behind videos and threads like this.
Horses do not understand reason, they live in black and white. I would love to discuss and explain to my horse why staying in front of my leg is in his best interests but I can't, and so sometimes I have to go where I don't want to when he leaves the handbrake on. The same thing has happened to this guy. The difference between him and you (generic you) is he is presenting the horse in a show ring in 20 minutes and you are hacking around at home with no intentions of being on a show ground...


----------



## busysmurf

I love you guys anyone want to whisper to Dally this week, we are going to start working in her trot. Kisses
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## attackships

wow, this thread has certainly hit some nerves.
my thoughts upon first watching the video: _what is this guy asking for? *cringe* why did he stop? what changed? _

nrhareiner gave some really helpful insight, i think i have a better understanding about what the man was asking. i wouldn't leave a comment screaming ""abuse"" but i think something about it still looked off. Maybe it's an illusion from how fast his elbows were moving but it really looks fairly harsh from the hands.

i understand that context is important. trust me, i know i don't look good all the time. i hate correcting my horse out in public because i get all these looky loos with an expression on their face like i am beating my horse to death. but that doesn't mean i have to love how the guy is handling his horse in the video. his horse seems fine, i'm just saying that if i was this person in the video and i saw the clip i wouldn't be thrilled with how i looked. and no, that does not automatically mean i whisper to my horse or am NEVER harsh with them. 

it seems any video snip on youtube that involves and animal will get comments about animal abuse these days. I put up a 30 second clip of my dogs playing and i got several. And if it's a video of horses you get the added bonus of an army of teenage "trainers" to correct you regarding anything in the video. The comment section of youtube seems to attract the most ...interesting type of people.


----------



## Adam

franknbeans said:


> have you ever even BEEN on a well trained reiner? I would guess you would be hanging on and screaming like a girl.:wink:
> but that is just a guess.:wink:


Crap! Were you at my last lesson??:rofl:

Just kidding!!!!!!! _maybe._


----------



## muumi

natisha said:


> Happy Birthday. What kind of cake?


Thank you!
Chocolate cake!

And I'm having some of what was left over from yesterday right now....

I see this thread went on long after I last left it....


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

Ride said:


> Yep - tomorrow I plan on getting on those horse bareback - them sans saddle and me in the buff lest the seam of my jeans irritate their delicate skin. I shall use my bare butt and my legs and back to cue them and hope for the best.
> 
> Oh - and if things go awry - if one gets chargey or tries to run off or buck or something like that - I will 'whisper' really really hard at him and hope he hears me...


OK I have to say you just made my day with this post! :lol: I am seriously at my desk laughing my BEHIND off right now! :rofl:


----------



## Adam

Ride said:


> I think I will go rest now. I have horses to ride tomorrow. No worries - I will not use ANY form of restraint on them as I now know that any form of pulling, spurs, etc would be subject to public scrutiny and therefore I might end up on the net being maligned by those whose only hope of getting respect in the horse community is to stay behind the computer and stay out of the competitive arena where they would have to prove the worth of their opinions. Yep - tomorrow I plan on getting on those horse bareback - them sans saddle and me in the buff lest the seam of my jeans irritate their delicate skin. I shall use my bare butt and my legs and back to cue them and hope for the best.
> 
> Oh - and if things go awry - if one gets chargey or tries to run off or buck or something like that - I will 'whisper' really really hard at him and hope he hears me...


Instruction during Ride's next lesson:

Now ASK for that leadchange with your left cheek, yo!! :rofl: 
Whisper! If I can hear you from here, you are too dam loud!!
Sit deeper, DEEPER!!! I don't care where the hair gets on yer derriere!
He tossed ya??!! Shake it off, EVERYONE gets sand up there sometime in their riding career!! 
What is that humming noise, your gonna annoy da horse!! It sure as hell is annoying ME!! Where's my camera, this $h!t is going on youtube....

Everything else I wanted to say I had to back-space out to keep it rated 'PG' lolol

Just 'playin Ride, thanks for the great post!!!


----------



## natisha

muumi said:


> Thank you!
> Chocolate cake!
> 
> And I'm having some of what was left over from yesterday right now....
> 
> I see this thread went on long after I last left it....


Yum, my favorite! 
Breakfast of Champions :lol:


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

mmmm cake...


----------



## DrumRunner

bsms said:


> Fart in Morse code. Just pour a few ounces of butterfly kiss juice on their backs first...


:rofl::rofl::rofl: YES! Now one of my favorite posts ever..
___________
I have to agree with nrhareiner and sorrelhorse on everything they said.. Unless you've been in that saddle on that horse, in those boots, you can't really judge that person. A YouTube video and the word abuse doesn't make the man or the horse.. Come on.. I've seen a LOT worse..Some at my house with a stud pony who was the devil..I'm positive he was..
___________
Chocolate cake also sounds lovely..I would love a piece of Lava Cake with vanilla ice cream right now..yum!

___________

LOL Adam, I hate your avatar..just sayin.. and if I ever have the chance, I WILL take your carrot lol


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

DrumRunner said:


> LOL Adam, I hate your avatar..just sayin.. and if I ever have the chance, I WILL take your carrot lol


Agreed! I have declined every carrot stealing opportunity I've ever had, out of the goodness of my wittle heart! But if yours comes up, consider it STOLEN! :twisted:


----------



## Adam

Hey now, don't be hating on my carrot! Might have to open up a big ole can of butterfly kisses on 'yall...


----------



## DrumRunner

I got a pocket full of rainbow and a cupcake that will knock out your butterfly! :wink:


----------



## Tianimalz

DrumRunner said:


> I got a pocket full of rainbow and a cupcake that will knock out your butterfly! :wink:


DID SOMEONE SAY CUPCAKE??!


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

Lol!!!! Oh no no no if we're doing My Little Pony we need old school original ponies!!! ;-) 

http://img2.imagesbn.com/images/103330000/103332634.jpg
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Tianimalz

Hoofprints in the Sand said:


> Lol!!!! Oh no no no if we're doing My Little Pony we need old school original ponies!!! ;-)
> 
> http://img2.imagesbn.com/images/103330000/103332634.jpg
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But those look more like hippos to me... :rofl: My little hippo-ponies


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

Oh you're definitely young lol!!! The new ones are so Anime looking!!! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DrumRunner

The ONLY My Little Ponies I'll even acknowledge as real My Little Ponies are like the ones HITS posted.. Those are the My Little Ponies I remember..

The new ones just look like Powerpuff Girls on crack..


----------



## SorrelHorse




----------



## DrumRunner

This is My Little Pony










LOL This is a LIE.


----------



## Tianimalz




----------



## DrumRunner

I like the real ponies..


----------



## Tianimalz

Thats okay, both sides have hooves to brohoof with!!!











*BROHOOF*


----------



## Hoofprints in the Sand

Ok this is the REAL boy pony! ;-)

My Little Pony: Sunburst | Flickr - Photo Sharing! 

Here was the REAL show I loved as a girl!!! Notice how these ponies don't use their hooves as HANDS!


----------



## Tianimalz

Everypony has something different they like and enjoy, ^___^ 










Now who wants a muffin to celebrate our love for ponies?!!


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## Ink

Tianimalz said:


> But those look more like hippos to me... :rofl: My little hippo-ponies



Haha I'm old enough to remember the original ponies, and I have to agree. I always though they looked like hippos on crack :lol:

I was also a huge tom boy so I would always watch Transformers and GI Joe with my brother instead..... Wait where did MLP come from? Weren't we talking about reining? :rofl:


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## Tianimalz

Ink said:


> Haha I'm old enough to remember the original ponies, and I have to agree. I always though they looked like hippos on crack :lol:
> 
> I was also a huge tom boy so I would always watch Transformers and GI Joe with my brother instead..... Wait where did MLP come from? Weren't we talking about reining? :rofl:


Well everyone was fighting and arguing, so ponies was a perfect way to redirect our attention into a positive light of tolerance and understanding


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## nrhareiner

So now the debate turns to which little pony is better?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rascaholic

bsms said:


> Sometimes you have to go where you don't want to go with a horse so the horse won't want to go there, either.


This says a lot. IMHO I think they other key element here is ownership. It's HIS horse. There is another thread that smacked me in the eye about that. Who am I to sit and judge, it is HIS horse.....no blood, no beating, no starvation, and no blatant abuse=none of my damned business.... 

(Even if there was blood and guts, it is still none of my business, but I'd make it mine if I saw it personally. It's what my own conscience dictates.)


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## Ink

Moral of the story: No matter how insignificant the topic you will always have people who passionately disagree with one another!


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## Rascaholic

Tianimalz said:


> Thats okay, both sides have hooves to brohoof with!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *BROHOOF*


OMG I almost choked laughing at this! Thanks for posting it ROFLMAO


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## Rascaholic

AshleyCL said:


> I guess you can't have parenting opinions without having kids either, huh?


ETD: everything, it's a moot point


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

nrhareiner said:


> So now the debate turns to which little pony is better?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hey at least we SORT OF kept on topic...we're still talking equines of one variety or another! :thumbsup:


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## DrumRunner

nrhareiner said:


> So now the debate turns to which little pony is better?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Laugh!! Come on, you know you liked the old My Little Pony show.. That do NOT look like hippos.. :lol:


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## nrhareiner

Can not say I have ever watched either. The old or the new.


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## DrumRunner

You have got to be joking! You never watched My Little Pony?? I loved that show when I was little..You've been seriously deprived..When I was little I used to live for My Little Pony..Any horse related cartoon..Like The Last Unicorn, the part in Disney's Fantasia with the ponies, and the rest of the horse movies..It just got sad when you grew up and realized how wrong horse movies can be.


ETA - Yes..I went there..and yes, it's lame..but when you're like 5 and 6 watching this it's freaking amazing.


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## nrhareiner

I grew up with bugs bunny in the road runner
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## COWCHICK77

nrhareiner said:


> Can not say I have ever watched either. The old or the new.


LOL, me neither but I remember someone buying me a "My Little Pony" for a gift. The name that came with it was like "Moonbeam" or something. As a first grader I thought that was a really sh!tty name for a horse, even if it did have a Fuscia colored mane and tail.:lol:

Not going to lie..still enjoyed the "MLP" banter above...


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## franknbeans

I am in the Road Runner/BB group also.....I like more realistic animals.....and agree with Cowchick....they had bad names, and were not appealing to me. Sorry. 

Only flaw is-I thought Barbie was realistic.....guess I was dreaming....even my plastic surgeon friend can't help that much. LOL


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## DrumRunner

LOL You all are missing out..


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## COWCHICK77

franknbeans said:


> I am in the Road Runner/BB group also.....I like more realistic animals.....and agree with Cowchick....they had bad names, and were not appealing to me. Sorry.
> 
> Only flaw is-I thought Barbie was realistic.....guess I was dreaming....even my plastic surgeon friend can't help that much. LOL


Ha ha... I liked Barbie too, but was frustrated that her feet about drug the ground when riding the palomino horse(forgot the name)....


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## busysmurf

I watched The Last Unicorn so much I wore out the tape, LOL


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## franknbeans

COWCHICK77 said:


> Ha ha... I liked Barbie too, but was frustrated that her feet about drug the ground when riding the palomino horse(forgot the name)....


Dragging her feet was the last of her worries-she couldn't spread her legs around the horse! She was never meant to ride...at least horses.....:wink:


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## DrumRunner

franknbeans said:


> Dragging her feet was the last of her worries-she couldn't spread her legs around the horse! She was never meant to ride...at least horses.....:wink:


Bahahaha..that's why you had to buy her boyfriends..


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## franknbeans

DrumRunner said:


> Bahahaha..that's why you had to buy her boyfriends..


Exactly.
The word "nutcracker" comes to mind.


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## DrumRunner

franknbeans said:


> Exactly.
> The word "nutcracker" comes to mind.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## tinyliny

I LOVE Bethovan's Pastorale. One of my favorite pieces of classical music.

I am trying to steer this thread to some good , clean subjects. Don't want it to warp young, impressionable minds. Gotta get them into classical music , instead.


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## smrobs

Man, ya'll are a trip.

I never watched MLP either...but I didn't grow up with cable so I watched the old cartoons (old to me anyway) that used to come on the network stations (that we picked up with an antenna) before school in the mornings; spiderman, batman, and voltron are the main ones I remember.

As for the horse movies, you betcha I grew up with those, but not the typical ones that little girls see like national velvet and the black stallion...I grew up on Lonesome Dove, Man from Snowy River, and pretty much anything John Wayne or Clint Eastwood.


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## DrumRunner

I looove Lonesome Dove, The Man from Snowy River, Tombstone, Open Range, Dances with Wolves, The Last of the Dog Men..all of those..

But I really love anything with Robert Duvall and Kevin Coster


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## Tianimalz

This is the horse I grew up watching on TV as a kid


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## smrobs

OMG, Tianimalz, you will get a kick out of this then.

When I got Taz when he was about 4 months old, his feathers were sunburnt and he looked like this....









And I swear that this picture is completely unaltered, this is exactly how it came off my camera









Unfortunately, I think it was a fluke as it didn't happen last year and it doesn't look like it will happen this year either.


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## DrumRunner

How in the world did just his feathers sunbleach??


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## NdAppy

Baby hair would be my guess DR. Left over from his foal coat that didn't shed out completely.


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## smrobs

I'll take NDAppy's word for it because I have no idea. I just remember laughing at him because of it and calling him a MLP the entire rest of that year until they shed out and came back in black.


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## DrumRunner

Ohh that makes sense..


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## Hoofprints in the Sand

DrumRunner said:


> You have got to be joking! You never watched My Little Pony?? I loved that show when I was little..You've been seriously deprived..When I was little I used to live for My Little Pony..Any horse related cartoon..Like The Last Unicorn, the part in Disney's Fantasia with the ponies, and the rest of the horse movies..It just got sad when you grew up and realized how wrong horse movies can be.
> 
> 
> ETA - Yes..I went there..and yes, it's lame..but when you're like 5 and 6 watching this it's freaking amazing.
> fantasia walt disney's 1940 original movie part 1-with pegasus and their babies - YouTube


OMG I loved that part of Fantasia!!!  And of COURSE The Last Unicorn, and the My Little Pony movie, etc etc! I only wish my parents would have let me RIDE! I didn't start until I got married at 26 and now I am OBSESSED haha!! I blame them :wink: Oh and yes, I watch reruns of The Saddle Club and Heartland now, call me a 12 year old, I don't care


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## Tianimalz

Smrobs... thank you for making my day a million times better :rofl:


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## Ride

The video was taken down from Youtube. I am smiling.


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