# Yearling showing EPM signs? Am I being paranoid?



## leapoffaithfarm (Jun 26, 2009)

Hopefully it is just the heat... i know that with the temps soaring here NONE of my horses are acting like themselves ... they are all sluggish and just look depressed


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## LovesMyDunnBoy (Aug 11, 2011)

My yearling acted that way when it was hot. But can't hurt to check!
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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

The vet just left. He did an external exam and drew blood. Wont have the results of that back until tomorrow atleast and then we all know that can come back a false positive. He did say there is a good chance its EPM. 

I REALLY dont think i can handle going through that again:-cry:


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## barrelbeginner (Jan 31, 2012)

im sorry, ill be hoping for the best! umm what is EPM?


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## palominolover (Apr 28, 2010)

ouch.. It could VERY well just be the heat, or dehydration. Good luck, I hope it turns out for the best. EPM is a neurological disease caused by a horse eating opossum feces . It can cause stumbling, lameness or dragging of the back feet, loss of coordination, and in extreme cases difficulty swallowing. That's pretty much the run down.


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

We are hoping for something else...at this point ANYTHING else. She has already been started on treatment just in case. Vet had some medication with him instead of the last time when we had to wait for it to come in. 

I know there are other diseases out there that can cause the same symptoms...

At this point dehydration would be a godsend


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

Thought I would attach a pic of our baby so everyone can see what we are praying to keep healthy.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

I really really hope he turns out alright. Lots of hugs your way!


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

Does epm ever go away? She's is absolutely stunning I hope it's not epm.
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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

Jewelsb said:


> Does epm ever go away? She's is absolutely stunning I hope it's not epm.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


From what I understand, No it doesnt.
I'm not an expert on it by any means...had actually never really heard of it til out gelding ended up with it at the beginning of the year. 80% of all horses will test positive for the disease simply because they have been exposed to it. that doesnt mean they will show symptoms of have what I call and "episode". I read in an article yesterday that its 1% of horses that have been exposed that show symptoms. It can be treated...the parasite killed and damage frozen...but it can't be cured and there is no reverse on the damage done. There is a 30% relapse rate on horses who have previously shown symptoms and been treated wit treatment being less effective the second...third or fourth....time around.
I have also read that it is becoming a much more common disease then it has been in the past.


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

I'm guessing their exposed to it from the hay we feed them then?
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## dee (Jul 30, 2009)

Most of the horses in our area will test positive for exposure to EPM - most likely due to the high number of opossums in the area. Few actually develop the disease, fortunately. Opossums will defacate on hay and in exposed feed...or in the grass that is eaten by the horses. There are also other animals that can carry EPM - such as raccoons - but opossums are the primary culprits.

Skyebird03 - I hope that your baby is negative for the disease and that the heat/dehydraation are all that's really wrong. Did the vet say how long it would take to get the test results back? Maybe the prognosis/outcome won't be as bad as your previous encounter with the disease if the test is positive, because you knew what to look for and may have caught it pretty early this time.

Sending healing thoughts, prayers, and hugs your way...


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## ThirteenAcres (Apr 27, 2012)

I am so sorry you're going through this. We had a 3 month ordeal with a friend's mare being suspected of EPM. After multiple negative tests it was determined that they believe hers was actually a flexor injury coupled with some chiropractic trouble (possibly kissing spine, etc). She's still in physical therapy. I doubt she'll ever fully recover.

It was very, very scary with her being pastured with my horses. I didn't know what EPM was, and they even suspected West Nile. So I held my breath for months hoping nothing would come up in my horses too.

It's in the 100's here now and our horses are dragging around too. I go out and spray them down with the water hose for relief. Maybe that would make her feel better and she'd perk up a bit?


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## Crescent (May 2, 2012)

My horse drags his back feet a lot but thats because he gets really sweaty and dehydrates really quickly. usually its only in hot weather.


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

I am praying its the heat. Its been in the low 100s for a few days now. Our other two are slightly off because of it but not as badly as Ember. At this point I would be glad for a case of West Nile or lumbar disease or something just so we don't have to deal with EPM again. Charlie got so bad so fast....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

We should have results back today or tomorrow...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

We should have test results today or tomorrow...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Fingers are crossed!


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

We called the vet this morning because we hadnt heard anything yet. Found out the test results are in but the vet that drew the blood has to tell us what the results are and he wont be in again until monday.

Not to thrilled with that


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Skyebird03 said:


> From what I understand, No it doesnt.
> I'm not an expert on it by any means...had actually never really heard of it til out gelding ended up with it at the beginning of the year. 80% of all horses will test positive for the disease simply because they have been exposed to it. that doesnt mean they will show symptoms of have what I call and "episode". I read in an article yesterday that its 1% of horses that have been exposed that show symptoms. It can be treated...the parasite killed and damage frozen...but it can't be cured and there is no reverse on the damage done. There is a 30% relapse rate on horses who have previously shown symptoms and been treated wit treatment being less effective the second...third or fourth....time around.
> I have also read that it is becoming a much more common disease then it has been in the past.


While the damage itself can't be cured the horse can learn to compensate and become a useable horse again. The body learns to use different nerve paths and I'm not 100% sure there is not some healing that takes place when given enough time. Why else would they recommend therapeutic levels of Vitamin E to help with nerve repair if it doesn't work at all? 

My haflinger was diagnosed with EPM as a 4 year old. He was so bad he was falling down and at times couldn't get back up. After 8 months of rehab he was rideable again at a walk. Some trotting added at a year. Wouldn't even canter in the fields, let alone under saddle until a couple years ago and now he is cantering just fine under saddle. Heat used to really effect him and he would become stumbly again on really hot days. This year we are having several +100 degree days already and he is showing no symptoms what so ever. He is now 11 years old - so he has had slow continual improvements over the years. 

As to being paranoid - once you have had a horse go through it you watch them and your other horses like hawks and may be more paranoid than other owners. But I don't think that is a bad thing.


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

We called the vet back and got a different doctor to "read the results". Ember did test positive for "exposure". This doesnt mean she has the actual infection, just that she has been exposed. We were really hoping for a negative as that would mean that she is negative whereas the positive result could mean she is infected or just exposed.
She has already started on the treatment so we are going to keep her on it just in case. Nothing has gotten worse. She just seems slightly stiff in the back legs and drags her toes. We are still in the 100s here so it could be the heat although my other two horses arent showing anything and my gelding is 28 (i would think he would be the first effected by heat). 
I suppose all we can do now is wait and pray that we dont have to go through the mess with this disease again....


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Which test did you use? There are more specific test now - I think the test is done in California called the ELISA test - where the results can indicate if they have just been exposed but the results are low enough its not likely an active infection and if the numbers are high enough they indicate a high probability of the horse actually having EPM. If your vet is not aware of this test I would ask him to look into it. It would give you a much better picture of what is going on.


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

We have just had a basic blood test done so far that tells if there has been exposure. It doesnt actually prove there is an active infection. We cant do anything else until Monday but I will definitely be asking my vet about other tests. We just brought this filly home two weeks ago today. IF this is an EPM infection, then she most likely caught it here and I dont know how. That is the worst part about this disease. The helplessness watching your horse go down hill and not knowing how to make the pain stop for them or fix the problem that caused it to begin with. 

We dont have grass in our pasture right now so infection didnt come from there. We buy two different sizes of hay bales...large square and small square...from two different guys. Both men also sell their hay to other horse owners in the area one of which is a big breeder/trainer. No one has had issues. Watching this disease causes you to second guess every decision you make. I have literally made myself sick by just wondering....


Edit: our grain is kept in locked barrels same as our alfalfa cubes. We keep the bags of treats in the house.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Exposure can come from soil or hay anywhere 'possums can be located. She may have even nibbled at a few weeds or stray branches or even dirt and got infected that way. And there is no reason she couldn't have been infected before she got to your place and the stress of a new home just brought it out. The only way you can know for sure it was your place was if she came from an area that is 100% 'possum free and they got all their hay from an area that is 100% 'possum free. 

However, with her age it may be wobblers too. It can look the same as EPM.


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

Its like watching Charlie all over again. His case was caught a lot later then what Embers has been but its doing the same thing. Thursday morning we watched her walk around and it was the first time we noticed her dragging her back toes. We called the vet immediately and he put her on the Marquis before he even left the house. She got her third dose of that this morning. Yesterday she seemed to be doing somewhat better so we were hoping for that negative test result and this to be nothing more then the heat. This morning she was still slightly better. She got her third Marquis dose and a dose of Bute. Now things are way worse. She is walking around with her head down and barely picks up her back feet. Its like deja vu....and pure hell


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

I'm so sorry your dealing with this again. Just don't give up. I'm hoping she can pull through it:/ poor girl
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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

I'm so sorry. Its horrible luck getting hit with EPM once - twice is wretched. I really hope you caught it early enough and she turns around quickly for you.


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

Assuming this is EPM (since we can't be for certain since just the blood test was done) how long will it take before improvement starts to to show on Marquis? (assuming the treatment works). the vet has told me that she will get worse before getting better due to the dying out of the protozoa.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

About 2 weeks of treatment there is a "die off" period when they do get worse like your vet said. As to how quickly they get better really depends on your horse, how quickly you caught it, and other random factors that are out of our control. You may kill off all the protozoa but it still may take time for her to compensate for the changes in her body. 

Now Toby got better, then at week two of treatment he got worse for a couple days and then got showed noticeable improvement after that. However, it was 8 months before I was comfortable enough to get on him again. I did a lot of in-hand walking. Started off slowly on a flat surface, then started adding in inclines and declines, then steeper ditches and then items to step over like poles and branches and slowly worked up as he showed he could handle it. I really didn't want to work him too hard to fast so we took it nice and slow and it worked for us. Others have other theories in getting them into harder work faster - but personally I prefer nice and slow and keep stress low.


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## Oldhorselady (Feb 7, 2012)

So sorry to hear you going through this Skye....Hopefully, that was only a guess and it will turn out ok. Keeping you in my prayers.


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

I want to give her a chance. She's just a baby and deserves to have a life. We had big plans for her. Shes built great with an awesome personality and even better bloodlines. Its a shame for something like this to happen to a horse like her so I want to do what we can for her. We arent a big farm and my husband and i are just factory workers so we dont have all the money in the world to treat this disease..and we were just bouncing back from Charlie having it. We will do what we can for her but I wont lie and say that I'm all for treating her....I know that sounds bad and maybe thats not quite the right way to put it....I loved Charlie sooooo much. We put time, money, sweat, blood, and tears into trying to keep him alive just to end up with no horse in the end. I still spend time crying about him. After he was euthanized, as bad as that was, it was kind of a relief. A relief to not have to watch him continue to go down hill and hurt. We hadnt realized how much time we were spending with him until he was gone and we had huge amounts of time for other things. Now, we have to go through all of that again and I am so sick about it. We are considering getting out of horses once this is taken care of and settled. I just dont know what else to do


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## Jewelsb (May 8, 2012)

There's a mare at our barn who has EPM. She is now fully functioning. They even barrel race her now!


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Have you walked your pasture and looked for toxic plants? With two horses on your property getting "EPM" and the first one doesn't sound like he has responded to treatment, it makes me wonder if its something they are eating rather than actual EPM. For example - Bracken fern can cause similar symptoms.


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

Cat said:


> Have you walked your pasture and looked for toxic plants? With two horses on your property getting "EPM" and the first one doesn't sound like he has responded to treatment, it makes me wonder if its something they are eating rather than actual EPM. For example - Bracken fern can cause similar symptoms.



We dont have any plants or any type of foliage in our pasture lol! With no rain around here everything dried up and my horses are on a dry lot right now. I usually put out hay all year round anyway but this year its their only source of forage. Since nothing is growing and no rain is in sight, they are fenced into the barn lot..and its dirt

There isnt anything under the fence edge they can get to. The couple of trees that grow around the fence edge to provide shade arent toxic to them and they couldnt reach any part of them to eat or chew on it anyway


Edit: Skye was my first horse..i have owned her for like 8 years now. I bought and sold a couple before we settled on Cody long term about three years ago. I have brought home a couple others since and sold them to friends as well. In all that time i NEVER had any type of illness issues with my horses except one sand colic episode in Skye two years ago. Charlie was the next horse we brought home intending to keep long term. He was supposed to be a replacement for Cody since he is in his late 20s. Since then, EVERYTHING HAS BEEN DYING ON ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!AAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Except for Skye and Cody who have never, and i PRAY TO GOD, will never show signs of anything. Sorry...needed to yell


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

How reliable is your hay source?


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

Cat said:


> How reliable is your hay source?


I consider both of them pretty reliable. The guy I get my small squares from sells to multiple horse owners, one of which is a good friend of mine and I have been buying from him for years now. We never had an issue with any other horses and have talked to a few of them and they never had problems. What I had left of those from last year we picked up out of the field while he was baling so they have only ever been stored in our barn. We have not seen a oppossum or any other wild rodent type creature in our barn in atleast two years. Had even had a live trap set for quite a while. The guy we get our large square bales from sells to a big breeder/trainer here in town and my husband actually went to school with her so we have been able to question her and she has never had problems. Those bales were stored in his barn for a few weeks before we got to them but we had never had any problems before now. He also feeds his own horses and cows with them as well as selling to others. Charlie was also showing symptoms before he ever touched one of the large bales.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about that. If it was in my hay then which hay. Did it get in the hay before or after we brought it home? I know Charlie had only had the small bales when he started showing strong symptoms. We thought for the longest time that Charlie had EPM before we ever brought him home because he showed a few signs that we recognized afterwards that could have been it.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Did the vet confirm or deny it yet??

Your posts are really long and I got around 4 hours of sleep last night.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

She said her vet confirmed the horse was exposed to the protozoa that creates EPM. Then again - so have 80% of the horses out there so its not a definite diagnosis. I really hope she looks into the Elisa test that is a little more accurate.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Thanks Cat!

I hope so too..


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

Cat said:


> She said her vet confirmed the horse was exposed to the protozoa that creates EPM. Then again - so have 80% of the horses out there so its not a definite diagnosis. I really hope she looks into the Elisa test that is a little more accurate.



I plan to look into it Cat  Gotta get through the weekend first. We have a different "doctor" on this case then I did on Charlies which I am thankful for. The vet that originally saw and then diagnosed Charlie was not much help at all and he just made things harder for us. The vet that came out to see Ember has been quite a bit more helpful. He actually stood and talked to us about EPM and answered our questions for us...big change from the other guy.


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## Cat (Jul 26, 2008)

Glad you have a better vet! Good luck with everything.


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

Spoke to my vet again today. He told me basically since her blood test came back positive for exposure and she is showing EPM symptoms that they are assuming its EPM and there is no need for another test. We are supposed to continue treating her for the EPM. 
As far as the filly, shes not any better but not any worse either. We are 6 doses in on the Marquis. Yesterday I stood and watched her walk around and she would bend, drag, pickup on her back feet. This morning she didnt seem quite as stiff back there. I know EPM horses have even more issues when their head is up...she doesnt seem to have any problems with that. Out in the pasture her head is level or slightly lower unless you are out paying attention to her and then its up higher. She will come into the run-in and rest her head on the top rail of the fence (which is higher then her) and she doesnt have any issues with doing that and dancing around. 
I am already up over $1000 on this vet bill and cant really afford to bring in a new one at this point. Things arent getting worse so we are going to monitor her closely and continue with treatment I suppose. 
I dont really know what else to do. Having to treat our horses for something like this was never in the cards...and now treating two of them within months of eachother is basically breaking us.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Man that's crazy OP.

So what's the game plan?


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> Man that's crazy OP.
> 
> So what's the game plan?


We are going to treat Ember (have been since this started) and pray she recovers. What we do with her afterward will depend on her recovery status I suppose. Skye and cody will probably be sold along with all of our horse related stuff. At this point we are going to need the money from our tack and stuff just to pay Embers vet bill. If we hadn't gone through this with Charlie just months ago it would be easier but after paying those bills off we are kind of at a dead end. Priority right now though is to try and save Embers life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

Well we're all pulling for you. Best of luck and prayers.


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

Thank you! Hopefully things turn for good soon and everything works out well
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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

How is she doing? Any improvement?


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

arrowattack09 said:


> How is she doing? Any improvement?


There is no change. Next wenesday will be her last dose of marquis. She is still dragging her back toes and hasn't gotten any better or worse. There is no muscle loss that we can see...with charlie, that was alsmost a daily change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Poco1220 (Apr 6, 2010)

Skyebird could you please email me at [email protected]
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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

So what are you thinking then?
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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

arrowattack09 said:


> So what are you thinking then?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have no clue. My farrier was out last week and she didn't have any issues holding her feet up...or herself for that matter. He watched her walk and he said he thinks she may have pulled a muscle (since all this started about two days after we turned her out with the other two). I can't get my vet to come look at her again until the marquis treatment is done and I litterally can't afford to call in a different one at this point so......we are kind of stuck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arrowattack09 (Jul 10, 2012)

Everything happens for a reason! God must be waiting on something 


Keep faith. Don't give up on her. Keep us informed	, please.
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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

arrowattack09 said:


> Everything happens for a reason! God must be waiting on something
> 
> 
> Keep faith. Don't give up on her. Keep us informed	, please.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Will keep u posted....and if God is waiting on something it had better be good....can't take much more of the bad these days
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Skyebird03 (Apr 29, 2012)

UPDATE:

Ember got her final dose of Marquis Wednesday morning. Throughout the course of the treatment she did not get any worse or any better. She never showed any other symptoms besides the dragging of her back toes. She is still doing this and and is no worse or better. I spoke to the vet and he told me that since she did not get any worse or better "that is a good thing" and there is a very small chance she will ever relapse. 

I have done quite a bit of research on EPM since the first horse we had was originally diagnosed. I have read that 30% of horses who have had the disease and survive end up relapsing and now my vet is telling me that mine has a very small chance of doing so? 

I am so......frustrated with the whole situation. My filly has shown NO OTHER signs of EPM besides dragging her back toes and that has not changed at all...sometimes she does, sometimes she doesnt drag. She has not had any muscle atrophy, she is urinating fine, there is no wobble and other then the dragging, she seems to know where her back end is at all times (still running with the other horses through the pasture and she had no issues standing for the farrier). I am feeling like this may have been a misdiagnosis of epm and we have paid for all of this treatment for nothing and our vet is basically to lazy to find out what is really wrong. 

So now I suppose we just sit and wait and watch her carefully to make sure she doesnt drop dead...apparently she has to in order to get a vets full attention these days.


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