# Standing at stud age



## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

IMHO, I won't even look at any stallion until he's over 4. By that time, he should be trained in some discipline well enough to show promise or not. If he's not trained, I won't look at him and if he's not showing some real potential in his given discipline, I won't look at him.


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## tmhmisty (Jun 8, 2014)

I wouldn't consider a stallion until he has an impressive show record. He would have had to prove himself as a performance horse so I would say at the very least 5. I kind of like the idea that your stallion must have to pass certain testing and evaluation before being allowed to breed. I guess that would be up to the registries to enforce though.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Until this year I have never used a stallion for breeding under the age of 3. Cassius bred a mare this year before his second birthday.
I am not advocating anyone else do this but as a breeder I need to know as soon as possible if a prospect can pass on the traits I demand in my program.
Waiting until 5 only adds to the cost and prolongs the wait. 
I am also 55 and time to promote a stallion is short.
If a stallion is unsound for riding I see no reason to wait.
I can understand a mare owners hesitation about breeding to a young stallion, especially if you are only breeding 1 or 2 mares a year. Shalom


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## FrostedLilly (Nov 4, 2012)

I think it depends and you'll probably get a different answer from every person you talk to. At the stable where I used to ride, they had a stallion who did well in Scottsdale as a yearling and two year old. They bred him to a few mares when he was a three year old and ended up not liking what he produced and he was gelded as a 4 year old. I'm not exactly sure what it was they didn't like, but whatever characteristic(s) they were looking for, they didn't get. Had he thrown what they were looking for, they probably would have further developed him in some discipline.


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## chelstucker (Jun 17, 2014)

the reason I ask, is the new owners of my barn, just brought in young stud colt. I noticed on his FB page that he will be standing at stud next year (as a 2 year old)...This just seemed really young to me.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

I think the most important question is: Is this colt actually stud quality.....or are they planning to stand him just because he's a stud or, even worse, a pretty color? *shudders*


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## chelstucker (Jun 17, 2014)

smrobs said:


> I think the most important question is: Is this colt actually stud quality.....or are they planning to stand him just because he's a stud or, even worse, a pretty color? *shudders*


I think it could be both...It's a public FB page, is that ok to post?


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

Probably not, but you could offer to pm the address to anyone interested. I know I am.


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## ForeverSunRider (Jun 27, 2013)

I'm interested too, if you wouldn't mind PM'ing me.


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Make that three of us. Like DB I have stood a young horse but only on two mares of my own to see if he would throw what I was looking for. He was bought for the traits I wanted him to throw and his sire and grandsire both consistently threw those. I would not stand a stud for out at that age though.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

after a show record. register of merits. etc. other than that.. umm.. never.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I am not impressed by a show record. I want and need to know what a stallion can produce on a variety of mares. I know of too many champions that were duds in the breeding shed. I want his sire and grandsires to have produced good quality animals and not those that are trendy in the show ring. I would not give you a dime for a world champion pleasure horse or one that was bred to be one.
Conformation Pedigree temperament and sanity are what impress me. Shalom


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## Elsa (Jun 20, 2014)

If the breeder has the resources and room to raise foals from a young unproven stallion breeding early can be a good move doubly good if they are showing his offspring alongside him. They can get information about what the stud passes on as well as have grown offspring starting their own show/performance careers before the stud is even retired from the show ring to the breeding shed in many cases. Obviously their best bet would be to use him very lightly maybe 2-4 mares and only with carefully selected mares that compliment him well, only to outside mares via invitation or approval not offered for public stud to anything with 4 legs.


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## smrobs (Jul 30, 2008)

LOL, Donald, I know that's one place where you and I differ a bit .

Of course, knowing that the stud produces well is very important, but to me, it's just as important knowing that he himself is talented at a given discipline. You know I don't require a show record (and if I found one, it would have to be in cutting or reining or roping...some _useful _discipline to my style of riding), but I want them to prove that they can be good at something. If they _aren't_, then I always wonder which they will breed true; their bloodlines or their _own _ability.


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## tmhmisty (Jun 8, 2014)

If you don't have a stallion that is good at his job or excels in something what are you breeding for? Bloodlines? Because in that cause why not just breed to the stallions sire?


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

Smrobs I understand your point. If I was a mare owner looking for a stallion I would seek the best I could afford. 
Pedigrees are a important and an unproven stallion would be much cheaper than his sire. 
Cassius will only cover my own mares for the next year or two. After three foal crops if he does not live up to my expectations his future here will be in question. Shalom


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## Druydess (Jan 25, 2008)

Elsa said:


> If the breeder has the resources and room to raise foals from a young unproven stallion breeding early can be a good move doubly good if they are showing his offspring alongside him. They can get information about what the stud passes on as well as have grown offspring starting their own show/performance careers before the stud is even retired from the show ring to the breeding shed in many cases. Obviously their best bet would be to use him very lightly maybe 2-4 mares and only with carefully selected mares that compliment him well, only to outside mares via invitation or approval not offered for public stud to anything with 4 legs.



Agreed Elsa. This is exactly what I have done, and I couldn't be happier with the decision. I have 2 stellar fillies that will be in my future breeding program, bred *exactly* as I wanted. The Sire is doing very well under saddle. He will have proven himself in both arenas.
I certainly have NO doubts as to his consistent ability to produce stunning, correct foals. I won't have wasted years of training just to find out he doesn't produce well enough-- though I honestly had little doubt about that.. :wink:


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## QtrBel (May 31, 2012)

Because we breed for a different purpose, personality has to be stressed for me as a passable trait as well as performance potential. If they can't throw what I need consistently confirmation wise plus potentially perform if they are gelded (increasing saleability) plus the bonus of bloodlines that are proven for what they are then marketed for. I can't afford to have them here for the number of years I do as I don't sell young stock and I don't start training until later than most I see here unless i can expect some sort of return in the end. Breeding young means offspring are brought along with their sires as pointed out above.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

Unless you're showing/working the offspring alongside the sire to prove their usefulness, I won't even bother looking at the stallion. A horse has to prove that it has the conformation, temperament and ability to stand up to either competition or hard work. They have to be able to do more than stand there and look pretty, otherwise who's to say they don't blow a fuse when pushed too hard or go lame when worked too hard? They also have to breed true to their bloodlines, and be able to show that they can potentially out produce themselves. Why woul I choose your stallion, that hasn't done a darn thing but reproduce, over say a half/full brother that's proven he can perform or work? You(general), are more likely to get what you want(sound, sane, pretty), by going with a horse that's proven he can stand up to the stresses of show and/or work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

kassierae said:


> Unless you're showing/working the offspring alongside the sire to prove their usefulness, I won't even bother looking at the stallion. A horse has to prove that it has the conformation, temperament and ability to stand up to either competition or hard work. They have to be able to do more than stand there and look pretty, otherwise who's to say they don't blow a fuse when pushed too hard or go lame when worked too hard? They also have to breed true to their bloodlines, and be able to show that they can potentially out produce themselves. Why woul I choose your stallion, that hasn't done a darn thing but reproduce, over say a half/full brother that's proven he can perform or work? You(general), are more likely to get what you want(sound, sane, pretty), by going with a horse that's proven he can stand up to the stresses of show and/or work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I dont breed horses for the show ring. doing so increases your chance of getting a foal that will not meet the criteria for the discipline it was bred for. I breed affordable sane all around horses. 
my horses are sound and have the conformation to go in any direction.
All a show record proves to me is that someone spent tens of thousands of dollars having a horse professionally trained. They spent more money taking lessons and hauling horses to shows. they spent even more money buying silver studded saddles or other expensive equipment.
None of those things prove a horse is superior.
Winning the triple crown, the tevis, being a world champion barrel horse, roping horse, cross country, or any other discipline judged on performance alone gets my attention. 
Circling an arena at a slow trot or canter proves nothing to me. Shalom


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

You do realize that not all showing is subjective? And not everybody spends "tens of thousands of dollars" to have a show horse? Showing could be 4h, could be barrel racing, competitive driving, etc. Also, please note that I also said WORK horses, such as ranch horses, competitive trail, endurance. Breeding for the show ring generally gets you(general) exactly what you want, a well bred, well conformed show prospect with the blood lines and temperament to back it up. More than likely that horse will be successful at some level, be it open shows, breed shows, 4h. 

I've taken maybe a years worth of lessons my entire life. I've never sent a horse for training, did it myself with the help of my grandmother. I held the top spot in our local club(which includes NBHA and IBRA riders) three years in a row. It does not necessarily take tens of thousands of dollars to be successful. I don't need a fancy saddle, nor do we even have a judge. The clock is my judge. At the top, yes, you do. But not everybody wants to be at the tippy top. Local showing is just a lucrative, especially around here and with the 4h kids. Many people in my area wouldn't take a second look at a horse that has done nothing but sit in a field and reproduce. Heck even a rock solid trail horse would get a look from me, but they have to have done SOMETHING to prove their worth and reproducing only shows me they can make babies. That's it.

Eta: I'll ask again, why should I choose your horse, who has done absolutely nothing but make babies, over a half/full brother or a horse of similar breeding that has proven he has what it takes to work? Again, could be shows, could be ranch work, could be a rock solid trail horse or driving horse. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I have no horse that has "done nothing but make babies". Star is a proven sire and used on the farm regularly. I have ridden him over 20 miles with little conditioning and he still had plenty of stamina.
Sam is a proven winner on the race track. he won his maiden by 13 lengths.
Cassius will be shown next year.
All are impeccably bred sound in body and mind.
No one has asked you to breed to any stallion I own. I am very selective and only do live cover. 
Cassius will be shown only for a year or two in the sport horse disciplines then he will be used for endurance. he will only cover MY mares for the next two years. I am the one taking the risk I am not asking anyone else to.
When someone states that a horse needs to prove he can handle training or being ridden I cannot understand how someone who handles a horse on a daily basis cannot judge this without mounting the animal. 
In my experience if they can not be handled safely on the ground then that proves they cannot deal with the stress of more complex training.
If you want to show then by all means buy a show horse or have one bred. Most horses will never see the inside of an arena. 
People who show or compete on their horses are a minority of horse owners.
I have no problems selling horses . Shalom

Shows and competitions are simply marketing for breeding programs.


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

if I was looking for a jumping, cutting, reining, barrel, endurance, WP , etc horse, i would want to know that the stallion/ mare and lineage were good at that sport or discipline. 
If I simply want a trail horse, then I just go try horses OUT on the trails and don't give a hoot about papers , bloodlines etc. I won't be breeding them. 
I don't think any Stallion should be bred, until it can safely be handled from the ground, ridden around other horses w/o acting like a stud. An ill mannered Nasty tempered horse will not get a good reputation in the show ring .


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

My "you" was a general "you", not necessarily you yourself. All I am saying, is that a horse should have to show that it can DO something other than reproduce before being considered for breeding. You simply cannot tell if a horse will stay sound in a career just by looking at it. You never know until you try. Maybe even though he is absolutely wonderful at home, he cracks under pressure, not something I want to see in a breeding animal. Maybe when pushed to go a little harder or a little faster he comes up lame, despite having above average conformation. Again, not something I want to see in a breeding animal.

Showing is absolutely not just advertising, the vast majority of people show because they enjoy it, they enjoy proving their horse is better, faster, more athletic, etc. They enjoy the thrill of competition or simply just enjoy being around other horse people. Maybe in your area there aren't many people who show, but up here we have a very large percentage of people who show. Almost all of the people that have horses around here show at least once a year, especially the 4hers and ammy owners/riders. I live right around the corner from Bucks county, the heart of horse showing in PA. The Sussex county horse show in NJ is just over an hour away. There are at least 3-4 local shows or rodeos under an hour away from me every weekend, even in the winter. The vast majority of people here are show people. 

Stevenson, you are correct that I also would not breed for a trail horse, I would just buy one. However, I would rather see the person who trail rides every weekend and has a rock solid, bombproof mare/stallion breed than see someone with horses that have done nothing breed. There simply is no market for horses that have done nothing and came from no-name bloodlines. 

There's a woman about an hour from me that used to have a decent program and a very nice stallion that had a nice show record until he fractured a leg as a youngster. His foals all went on to great careers, many of them show horses, barrel horses, trail horses. Now since he passed, she still has two stallions, one buckskin QH and a leopard appaloosa. Both registered, neither has done a darn thing. She is breeding them purely based on bloodlines and color, and while they are both nice and could produce nice foals if bred to equally nice mares, she breeds them to everything with a uterus, banking on the fact that because her stallion has Sonny Dee Bar or Prince Plaudit in his pedigree those foals will be valuable. She generally sells her foals for $200-$700, which to me is next to nothing and not worth it in the grand scheme of things. 

Sorry, but I need to see a stallion out DOING something, be that showing(which apparently the only "showing" is going around a ring, which is completely false), ranch work, roping, competitive trail, endurance, etc. other than reproducing to even consider him to be breeding quality.


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

I bred one of my mares to a stallion that has no show record has not been ridden and now have the best foal I seen in years.
The only way to prove a stallion or broodmare for breeding is to see what they produce. If they cant produce a good foal that fits the needs of the breeder they have failed. their show record does not matter when entering the breeding shed.
Their record only helps market the foals. This is why horse shows were started.
Like I stated before racing, barrels, jumping, roping , endurance, and other athletic events show me a horse has athletic ability , intelligence, and endurance. 
Most other classes or disciplines do not. 
Passing up a good stallion simply because he has no show record is up to the mare owner. However you have the same chance of getting a dud from such a stallion as you have from one just starting his breeding career but with a show record. 
As I stated before a show record only proves someone trained and exhibited a horse. Shalom


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## stevenson (Sep 12, 2011)

I have some no name horses, and my favorite horses, were 1) an old ranch horse non reg 1/4
2) non reg paint mare 3) non reg Morgan or possibly TW , vets guess was Lippett Morgan and they were No nothing no name horses. I could trust these horses to take care of me on rides. Also my reg paint gelding , he had been shown but would single foot so he was not working out in the competition world. Now these horses could and would pitch a fit on occasion, and if someone else was on them and got to hard on their mouths etc, they played rodeo. I would love to have them back but I am not Lazarus.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

My main riding mare, now retired as she earned it, has no papers and is a grade. I wouldn't trade her for the world. I'm not saying anything bad about horses with no/unknown/little known bloodlines. I would have bred my mare in a heartbeat if I could have found a nice enough stallion. But she's proven to be sound through hard work, she's athletic, has a wonderful temperament and has also proven she can run with the best of them. 

Even if a horse doesn't have stellar bloodlines or any at all, being proven in the ring, on the ranch or on the trail is very important to the vast majority of people.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Elsa (Jun 20, 2014)

I think everyone here is actually in agreement for the most part just that everyone is looking at it differently. An owner wants a fully proven stallion that means one with performance or show records and offspring that have followed in his footsteps. For a breeder they are working to get their stallion to that point and it is a whole other situation. 

For stallions part of proving them is being certain they pass on the best part of themselves including their performance and temperament, it's not soley about performance because there are stallions that are absolute gems in the performance arena but fall short in the breeding shed. How do you think we get a fully proven stallion? Someone (breeder or mare owner) takes a risk and breeds their proven mare to a stallion with performance ability but no foals on the ground. 

In the racing world and many other areas of competition many of the top performance horses are duds as breeding horses. It takes more than a record of performance to truly prove a stallion.


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## kassierae (Jan 1, 2010)

While I agree with that, I believe it takes MORE than just producing to have a great stallion. For me he has to be the whole package, not just parts of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## dbarabians (May 21, 2011)

kassierae said:


> While I agree with that, I believe it takes MORE than just producing to have a great stallion. For me he has to be the whole package, not just parts of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is where we disagree my friend. My stallions have pedigrees with names of the most famous arabian stallions AND mares in recent history. I want those lines not because of what they earned in the showring or racetrack but they are valuable to me for one reason. They produce good quality horses with talent and conformation to perform.
As stated before a stallions record is a great way to market him for breeding and to sell his offspring. If his offspring do not live up to their potential the stallion is a failure. Then his show record is worthless.
I am not breeding only one or two foals. If I was I would agree fully with your statements. Star and Sam have produced foals from or covered 25 mares in the last two years. I need proof of what they can throw to ensure they remain in my program. Keeping a stallion is expensive. Add another and a prospect and my time and money need to be well spent. Shalom


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## squirrelfood (Mar 29, 2014)

A stallion should have great conformation, including great legs and feet. He should have a wonderful disposition; be willing, intelligent and trainable. A stallion should be VERY good at his job (something other than making babies), and be easy to handle in all situations. Otherwise he needs to be a gelding. And if his first crop of foals don't follow form to function, he STILL needs to be a gelding. A stallion should NEVER be bred until he has proven he is "all that and a bag of chips". Mine was 12 when he bred his first mare. He chased a lot of cows and did a lot of rollbacks before that.


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## BugZapper89 (Jun 30, 2014)

I own a stallion station. Ideally, I like them at 4 and up. I have collected a few 3 year olds, that were being retired to stud as they already won everything or at least had a finished record but had soundness issues. 
On rare occasion, I will get a 2 y/o to collect. This is done normally to do a small test crop. The collection and evaluation are not a good final determining factor, as I expect to not have the best to work with. If a client is considering gelding one, they may do this and then finish the horses show record up while seeing what they produced.


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## BlueSpark (Feb 22, 2012)

I once knew a stallion that was never raced, only started for the track, due to an injury as a yearling he never could race.

He was well bred, and a spectacular mover, with a disposition to die for. His foals never did much on the track, but they were/are extremely sound, tons of stamina, can jump whatever you point them at and have movement that can compete in any dressage ring. As eventers and dressage horses, you couldn't ask for better, and he was bred to a huge variety of mares. They are also extremely sane, and make excellent trail mounts and pleasure horses. I considered him a very successful sire, and he had no show record.

isn't that really what it comes down to, what they can produce? if it can win every show out there, is the rarest color known to man and has every great horse on its pedigree but it produces nothing but mean tempered brown nags, what good is it worth as a stud? absolutely nothing.

As far as age, I don't see the point in standing a stud to the public before physically mature. Breed to your own mares and maybe a close friend or two, and see what he actually produces, then at 4 or 5 stand him to a few outside mares. If the foals he sires are sub par, geld and try again.


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