# A moderate review, from a judge



## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Not wishing to start the entire rabid debate over again, but perhaps reading thoughts for a judge, who also has a degree in animal science, will give a more balanced view

God is Great, Beer is Good, and This Western Pleasure Thing Has Gotten Crazy - Horse Collaborative


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

LOL, then people like me with read it and wonder about this 



> Let’s stop and think about Grand Prix dressage for just a minute. Horses don’t naturally trot and canter in place either, yet that seems to be perfectly acceptable and highly revered in the dressage world. I think it has something to do with the difference in animation, lift, and suspension,


Now I don't ride GP level, I am totally at the other end of the scale, but I don't remember a horse being asked to canter in place, unless a canter pirouette is classed as cantering in place. BUT, watching my horses at play I see a lot of the movements that is asked for in dressage, in glimpses, and not exaggerated, with excellent timing this popped up on my FaceBook memories this morning, posted on this day in 2013

"Lovely show first thing this morning watching the ponies playing, but have to question what will do if Ben repeats any of those moves under saddle. 
The passage was pretty, that one I would enjoy, levade, well good attempt, and the move that looked like a good attempt at cabriole, wasn't expecting that one LOL."


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

yes, horses at play can do some pretty collected movements! Bucking, after all, is a high degree of collection!
I am trying to promise myself, to not get into a debate over western pl again, but I do think this judge gives a very good perspective , on both sides of the issue, that perhaps might be a satisfactory middle ground for many here, and also to help horse people respect views on both sides of that issue


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

The video at the link was horrendous. It violates natural law:"True Law is right reason in agreement with nature: it is of universal application, unchanging and ever lasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people [_or AQHA Congress?_], and we need not look outside ourselves for an expounder or interpreter of it. And there will not be different laws at Rome and at Athens, or different laws now and in the future, but one eternal and unchangeable law will be valid for all nations and all times, and there will be but one master and ruler, that is God, over us all, for he is the author of this law, its promulgator, and its enforcing judge. Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature, and by reason of this very fact he will suffer the worst punishment." Cicero, 106 – 43 B.C.
​Nor is a bucking horse collected. The FEI has a definition for collection, and this is not it:








​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Never watched the video, if it showed the `worst or the best`, as I am still limited with download data amount,, until next month.
I did not post it to show that video, as I don`t know into which category it fell, just the thoughts of this judge
In fact, I have watched none of the videos posted by various people, including the original riding video of that yearling, in the original thread.
My thoughts, are general thoughts, without surfing the internet trying to justify my stance, and my hope in posting this thread,, was not to get into the entire negative one sided view, but maybe to just have people look at the entire subject with a more open mind.
You will always be able to post bad videos to back up any stance, any discipline, and I have no intention of going that route again.
In fact, no intention to even try to find videos of `good western pl horses. My intent was only to open some minds and reach some degree of middle ground and understanding.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

That video did make me wince at times (and a new appreciation for how hard something so simple can be on the horse) but I appreciated the post. I would have been curious for a commentary on the video. Oh well.

I do agree that dressage is not the ideal example because the whole point is to enhance natural movements, not change them. Yes I have seen my horses trot in place and do canter pirouettes and such. My gelding is extremely athletic and definitely rivals the Lipizzaners in his airs above ground (at liberty not while I'm on him lol).

But that's part of the point is you need the right horse for the job!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> But that's part of the point is you need the right horse for the job!


Amen to that.....breeding, build, temperament and training all go to that, Fergie would never cut a cow..


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Golden Horse said:


> LOL, then people like me with read it and wonder about this
> 
> 
> 
> Now I don't ride GP level, I am totally at the other end of the scale, but I don't remember a horse being asked to canter in place, unless a canter pirouette is classed as cantering in place. BUT, watching my horses at play I see a lot of the movements that is asked for in dressage, in glimpses, and not exaggerated, with excellent timing this popped up on my FaceBook memories this morning, posted on this day in 2013


The stallion in my avatar used to show off for the girls when he was turned out. On this occasion I got a photo of him doing a pirouette all on his own. It was a totally natural and uncued movement.

I am not going to get into another "what is natural and what is not" debate. I just wanted to show that a "canter in place" is not an unknown or unnatural thing for a horse to do.



A nice forward natural trot, too


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I can show my horses turned out, doing similar actions, and if you saw Charlie free trotting, you would think she was a Lippizaner.
I also am not getting into the debate,and when I posted the article, I did fear that the video posted was an example of western pleasure at it's worst, as the author did say that many of those were circulating.
I only posted it for her thoughts, and it is unfortunate, if the video (which I did not watch ) was an example of western pl at its' worst., and people would focus and jump on it, rather then the content of the article 
i have seen horses do airs above ground at liberty, buck, rear, spin. but I have never seen then either canter or trot in place either.


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Here's my take on it...if one doesn't like a certain style of riding, just don't do it. There are lots of types of riding I'll never do, and WP is just one of them.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Smilie, 
you don't need to get all gun shy already. the video posted is of the worst, but if a person reads the article, they will see that the author is raising it as an example of what sort of stuff is being posted on the internet, and touted as "the" WP. and, she says that most folks who bash WP do so from the point of view that it is somehow detrimental physically for the horse, which she assures us is not true.

she also says, that it is incorrect to say that all those that 'bash' WP are not knowledgeable about it or about horses. their perspective is not without some knowledge base.

I didnt start that other thread to say how awful the horses are treated, but rather to have it explained to me how that is seen as desireable or beautiful, in even it's better forms.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Please, please pretty please a thousand times over - can someone get me to be a judge of WP classes? 

I would take great delight in a class like that to ask them all to leave. Not one horse was moving straight, they all looked lame and it surely has to be the worse example yet.

_I wouldn't need a mike either, my voice would carry to those in the auditorium amd outside too! _


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

I agree Foxhunter, they all looked lame to me. No matter how bad someone sees dressage you would not see so many lame horses competing in one place at one time!!

Perhaps the problem has to be visited from another perspective. There is something seriously wrong with the judging and class guidelines to end up with something like that example being promoted as optimal WP.

To my mind the whole point of competition is to demonstrate and encourage the breeding of the best type of horse for their discipline. Before cars, horses would often be ridden or driven many miles a day, so ideally paces need to be smooth and energy efficient so it is easiest on both horse and rider. So in showing it’s a case of “my horse looks best, moves best, covers a lot of ground, is relaxed, obedient, strong, supple, jumps well, fast, pulls more weight . . .” whatever. And the people with horses showing the best of the desired traits have always compared them and fetched the best prices. It is good for the breed(s), as breeders aim for a good type of horse and breeds that might otherwise vanish as their original use dies out, find new impetus as they are promoted in modern times for pleasure.

So where is it going wrong. The people deciding on guidelines are completely missing the point of the competitions and are twisting and making a mockery of the sport and the horses.

I'm not meaning to pick on WP especially but it is just so extreme. There is a sector of WP that is creating bad feeling for the whole, in the same way that racing and endurance have.

:cowboy:


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

Smilie said:


> I can show my horses turned out, doing similar actions, and if you saw Charlie free trotting, you would think she was a Lippizaner.
> I also am not getting into the debate,and when I posted the article, I did fear that the video posted was an example of western pleasure at it's worst, as the author did say that many of those were circulating.
> I only posted it for her thoughts, and it is unfortunate, if the video (which I did not watch ) was an example of western pl at its' worst., and people would focus and jump on it, rather then the content of the article
> i have seen horses do airs above ground at liberty, buck, rear, spin. but I have *never seen then either canter or trot in place either*.


Other than a pirouette (which the horse I posted DID do) canter in place is a bit of a stretch for her to have even said. NO dressage test asks for such a thing. When this stallion was taken to breed, he most certainly did piaffe....every time.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

So she basically said that she doesn't care for how WP horses are moving these days. Which is how most people are thinking as well. I don't think anyone has said all WP horses are tortured, but it seems WP has moved in a bad direction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

If these horses are never allowed to move out how does a vet do an assessment on them?


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Smilie said:


> i have seen horses do airs above ground at liberty, buck, rear, spin. but I have never seen then either canter or trot in place either.


Like Alison says, I have seen excited horses trot in place, both stallions and very excited horses being held back. 

I was always told the movement you rarely see in a loose horse is the rein back but watch one horse run back to boot another and that goes out the window! 

About the only movement I have never seen a horse do is the courbette when it 'rears' and then jumps forward on its hind legs. 

The piaffe - trot on the spot, is only done at the trot never at the canter.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The horses ARE allowed to move out, just not during a class.

I don't know if moving in such a crabbed manner as so many of the lopes are, with the inside so over canted , is physically harmful or not. Hirer may look lame but that doesn't mean the are lame.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I love riding WP but have never done it like they do it at AQHA shows. My horse is naturally slow and we go with that, not the sort of head bobbing lame look that a lot are using. I kind of feel like if you don't like it, don't watch it, don't ride it. I, personally, don't care what anyone else thinks of the class, I like it. The way things are now is a fad and it will pass, they always do. They are attempting to get horses to move out a bit more, they've changed the standards, a judge can only judge what is in front of them that day. As they start pinning the free-er movers more often, things will change. Hopefully in the not too distant future, things will open up just a bit more.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Ok. 1 the last thread was not a rabid debate. 2 because people were getting butt hurt the old thread got closed. 3 i was actually learning from the old thread and was starting to have a more positive perspective of wp. will never show breed wp (will at open shows, will stick to performance shows or english at higher levels). And from several wp i have talked to all get overly defensive before i can get 3 words it. is it because none of the exhibitors know the answer to the questions im asking? if thats true thats ok, i just honestly want to know.

in my area people condemn my arabian before seeing her. to most people i am around out here she is a stupid "A-rab" and is not worth the bullet to shoot her with. most people did not want to ride with me thinking my mare was going to endanger everyone by being a stupid spooky A-rab. but my mare showed them up and was less spooky and more willing than their horses.
Did i get overly defensive of my horse? at first yes but then i just learnt to educate rather then get upset. i would do so by example. i would just play with her in the arena and on trails. people eventually started asking me about my little arabian mare and i would educate them. when they asked me why they look like this or shown doing that i would tell them. when they would make a negative comment i would ignore it. 

Had the same issue with riding english. the things i and english (and my poor saddle) was called are not polite to repeat on the forum.

If you want people to take you seriously show by example. dont let your emotions drive what you write/say. And maybe brake down the what and the why. makes it easy to read and understand. i know some of it is preference in movement. just the same as alot of breeds, but how did it come about? learning/sharing the history of a discipline never hurt


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I know people say if you don't like it don't do it and I get that, because that is just what I did.
My favourite breed is the quarter horse, they are wonderful, versatile horses and I had two lovely mares, one a granddaughter of Poco Bueno and the other a granddaughter of Leo and I wanted to show them AQHA which I did with the Poco mare as a 3yr old. Showed on the line and WP. Now this was a long time ago but when the style changed to the peanut roller and so on I didn't like it and didn't want to ride like that so I stopped showing AQHA and went in different directions.
But the thing is, I did want to show AQHA and at that time they did not have Amateur Owner or HUS classes so it meant that AQHA was out for me.
Fortunately there are other options available today.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Woodhaven said:


> Fortunately there are other options available today.


^^^^^ This right here. There ARE other options, so if I really am averse to the way something is done or going, I can go do something else just as fun.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> is it because none of the exhibitors know the answer to the questions im asking? if thats true thats ok, i just honestly want to know.


They probably don't know. Their trainers tell them,"Do this, this way, and you'll win". A lot of what goes on in a show ring is "Monkey See, Monkey Do". Some of the thinking of how to get there is erroneous, for instance "Why do Impressive horses bulk up so much more than others?". Answer from some, "Because the HYPP Fasiculations make the muscles bigger.", so they breed a lot of Impressive and breed FOR HYPP. But.......along down the road, people find that Impressive horses who are NN can be as big or bigger and bulk up just as much at those who are NH. Hmmmmmm, so, Why DO the Impressive horses get bigger? Don't know they just do. 

Why do the horses that are moving the way the do get pinned in the shows? Because at one point a judge made one of those horses a champion. Maybe he just noticed that that horse only did one pass of the arena when the others did 2, and decided slower was better without really looking at the horse. I don't know, but once it started it was hard to stop because everyone was trying to out slow the others. A horse with a relaxed headseat is naturally lower than one who is nervous, and how many times do we say it, "If a horse has his head low, he can't be nervous.". So they started going lower and lower. 

It's all starting to turn around, the judges don't want to see the peanut rollers anymore and they're starting to look for a horse that's still slow but moves out more normally. It will all come around.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Jan1975 said:


> Here's my take on it...if one doesn't like a certain style of riding, just don't do it. There are lots of types of riding I'll never do, and WP is just one of them.


It depends. Dressage trains horses to move in a way that I do not find useful, but there is nothing about dressage that makes me think the horses look crippled. It is something I don't want to do, but so what?

The very little low level western pleasure I've seen is the same - not my cup of coffee, but so what? But there is definitely a level of western pleasure that many apparently aspire to that violates natural law - what we can learn about what is good and normal by watching and thinking about the world around us.

I have a white german shepherd who looks a lot like Rin Tin Tin looked, and he is a very agile, athletic dog. But there are also German Shepherds being bred for show who have the athletic ability bred out of them, all because some people think they then LOOK athletic. 

My Border Collie came from a breeder recommended by a guy with 2 national titles in the sheepdog trials. He was picked as the least likely to succeed and sold to me since I don't own sheep. But he moves and acts like a sheepdog. He was bred to herd, not to look. When I look at the AKC "Border Collies", bred for looks...they are not Border Collies any more. I don't care what their papers say or their breeders feel - the soul of a Border Collie isn't appearance!

White German Shepherd, mutt (Australian Snuggler, I think) and Border Collie:








​ 
This was pulled from the Internet:

SIRPRIZERIZED
March 24, 2007 - December 17, 2014
R.I.P
To some, Sir may have been just a horse, but to us he was as good as it gets and he meant the world.










Parkinson Quarter Horses::Leading Breeders of Halter Horses​
I have no doubt he was valued, cared for, and treasured. He may have been a wonderful horse in many ways. He certainly cost more and got better care than Bandit ever will! But I will be honest: I think that breeding violates natural law as well. The owners were obviously very proud of him, but I think most humans can look and say, "There is something wrong with this picture". The mechanics of a body like that just does not match the world around us.

I once saw a video of western pleasure from the 60s. What I saw wasn't what I would enjoy riding, but I would not have minded watching it. The horses didn't look crippled. That crippled appearance is what drives the animosity. Horses should not move like a crippled crab. If they do, something is not right. It is out of synch with nature. It simply does not look "like a horse". And a person doesn't need 20 years of experience around horses to know that it doesn't look like a horse.

Until upper level WP encourages horses who move like horses, it will continue to have a LOT of people say "Yuck".


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## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

My huge problem with WP as it is _now_ comes from moving from the hunter world to a WP stable where for the last 10 years I've witnessed _on a daily basis_ the abuse necessary to produce these crippled up gaits. High port bits that actually make the mouth bleed, constant never ending, hard jerking of the reins even when the horse is standing still. Constant, never ending hard spurring into the bit and super tight training forks. What is going on in secret at barns all over the place makes me want to gag. This is more common than you know and they are training a whole generation of young girls that this is how you treat a horse. In fact, a local equestrian team asked to use a couple of my horses but then declined when I specified-only with _my bits and no spurs._

Then I watch these horses go permanently lame at a very young age requiring numbing agents to be injected before _every_ ride and eventually they are sold down the river to some unsuspecting (usually from out of state) buyer.

Sure, horse abuse happens every day and in every discipline but I've never seen it on such a constant daily basis as I do with WP behind closed doors.

I own registered quarter horses and they don't move like this-I wouldn't have it. I blame the AQHA for allowing judges to place this highly, now they have rewritten the rules but are refusing to enforce them. The AQHA will not get my support in anything they do and not one penny.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

HYPP? And I think this kind of thing is where the whole thing starts.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

IMO...the poor judges have to pick the best of the worst. If more than one person would take their well turned out, nice horses out and SHOW, as opposed to doing the copy cat routine, then we could turn this around. But, one cannot go out there looking Billy Backyard, racing around with a horse in winter coat, a couple hundred pounds underweight, etc., 

As it is, if your horse actually WALKs, you are going to LOOK like a NASCAR compared to all of those other horses....

It is how the QH wound up with NO angle in it's joints. If they can't move their legs, they can't GO anywhere!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I guess the bottom line, and the common denominator in all of this, is that HUMANS SUCK...and when it comes to any competition involving animals, then they are so often the losers. Look at the extremes we have bred in both horse and dog world, I'm sure that some of the developers of the breeds would not recognize what is being shown in its name now. Same with movements, we take something useful, like a lovely comfortable jog, one that you could happily ride somewhere without getting shaken up, and turn it into a pace that you couldn't actually ride anywhere, it would take you too long to get anywhere.

BUT, WP are not alone, there are issues with Dressage, why did the judges not mark Totilas as lame in his last test? I saw it at local level last year, judge excused a horse she thought was lame, no one else saw it, but she did, and she was right to call it, if that is what she saw.

There are many things I don't understand in showing, WP is high among them it's not that I believe the horses are lame, they just look lame when they are asked to travel like that. The abuses that go on outside the ring? Yes, well, stand up and be counted ANY sport where someone isn't trying to cut corners, or plain cheat to do well in the ring.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> Please, please pretty please a thousand times over - can someone get me to be a judge of WP classes?
> 
> I would take great delight in a class like that to ask them all to leave. Not one horse was moving straight, they all looked lame and it surely has to be the worse example yet.
> 
> _I wouldn't need a mike either, my voice would carry to those in the auditorium and outside too! _


Read the Artical
Yes, that entire class should have been gated. It was a video, showing how the worst examples were posted, just like, say the Blue tongue dressage video floating around-it was NOT an example of anything near a good example.
I was afraid this would happen, people not actually reading the article, looking at that video given by the author as an example used by people bashing western pl, to float around the internet
I am sure FoxHunter, you are smart enough, having reading comprehension, to realize, that can be done for any discipline, posting that discipline at it;s worst
It was unfortunate that the video was posted, as I was afraid what might happen, people not reading the actual article, and making it sound like anyone in his right mind would use that video in support of western pl!


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

Did you even watch the video smilie ?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

gypsygirl said:


> Did you even watch the video smilie ?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





Smilie said:


> Never watched the video, if it showed the `worst or the best`, as I am still limited with download data amount,, until next month.


Did you not even read the thread Gypsy? 

Sorry can't get the meaning from your question, to me it sounds as snarky as mine might to you...


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

Well that's kind of why I'm asking. I feel like it's the pot calling the kettle black. Unless smilie did go back and watch it, I honestly don't know.

For the record, I have read every post in the thread because this topic is very important to me. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> ^^^^^ This right here. There ARE other options, so if I really am averse to the way something is done or going, I can go do something else just as fun.


But I really wanted to show WP, I bought a good quality 3yr old and my goal was to show her and hopefully win some points and the next year I bought another good 3 yr old and then breed these mares and sell the foals. The market for the future foals would have been better if the mares had shown successfully.
But I did as you suggest, went a different direction.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

gypsygirl said:


> Well that's kind of why I'm asking. I feel like it's the pot calling the kettle black. Unless smilie did go back and watch it, I honestly don't know.
> 
> For the record, I have read every post in the thread because this topic is very important to me.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Then you would know that Smilie wanted to discuss the article, NOT the video, to bring some balance to the discussion, I still don't get why you are asking the question, when you already know the answer.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...It was unfortunate that the video was posted, as I was afraid what might happen, people not reading the actual article...


I read the article. It said pretty much nothing about why WP developed as it has and how to correct it. Her point:"_Anyway, my point is this. I don’t care for how many western pleasure horses are asked to move these days…but I DO appreciate a great one, and I do appreciate the fact that when asked, the horses can and do move differently…more forward, and in some cases, more comfortably_."​As long as horses are moving in a very unnatural fashion, moving unnaturally but "great" isn't going to cut it. Different may just be different, or it may be better, or it may be worse. And in many upper level WP videos, what I see is worse because it IS unnatural. Nor does breeding for an unnatural movement excuse things, any more than dog breeders breeding the athleticism and mind out of German Shepherds and Border Collies is excusable.

Some things are just wrong. And if WP needs to disqualify entire classes in order to make the point, then that is what they SHOULD do - instead of making excuses.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

The author of the article obvious thought that the video was important enough (as a point) to include in her article. If she didn't, she could have skipped it. You can't have an informed and complete discussion of an article if you skip over some of its points (ie the video). Then the op goes on to say that some people just watched the video and didn't read, when she read and didn't watch the video....that is not logical to me at all. You can't call out people for something when you are doing the same. 

Maybe the op went back and watched it. I don't know, how could I? 

I personally agree with many points in the article and I think that the video also backs up the author when she says that she doesn't care for the way WP horses are going. 

People can say all they want that it's getting better, but I've been to shows recently and seen horses moving like in the video.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

greentree said:


> IMO...the poor judges have to pick the best of the worst. If more than one person would take their well turned out, nice horses out and SHOW, as opposed to doing the copy cat routine, then we could turn this around. But, one cannot go out there looking Billy Backyard, racing around with a horse in winter coat, a couple hundred pounds underweight, etc.,
> 
> As it is, if your horse actually WALKs, you are going to LOOK like a NASCAR compared to all of those other horses....
> 
> *It is how the QH wound up with NO angle in it's joints. If they can't move their legs, they can't GO anywhere*!



for real? I am stunned. did the breeders actually breed that overly straight hock seen in so many halter qh's in order to create a horse that cannot flex and engage the hock for faster movement????
tell me it isn't true.


and, why are the horse's coming up lame, ad requiring injections?


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

I searched 1975 World AQHA Western Pleasure and got these images. This is what I remember Western ridden horses looking like (yes, back then). I thought they were very classy and beautiful. Compare to the pictures we have been looking at the last couple of days with these threads.

image of western pleaseure class AQHA world 1975 - 

In the 70's, I showed Open Western Pleasure and HUS on my Poco Lyle bred Appaloosa mare and did pretty well. She carried herself well, a little too bulky to be a good HUS, though.

There was a sense back then that you could take your WP horse in and out of the ring and get the same ride. That is what I used to think showing was all about.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

I still ride like that and do ok at the local shows. I wouldn't be competitive at the World but I don't aspire to that anyhow.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

A Judge's Perspective 2015 World Show Senior Western Pleasure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6aDmSArnig

Better than it used to be, perhaps, but the canter is ridiculous. His idea of self-carriage and a ground covering walk...well, ummm...."Say what? Are you coming TODAY!?"








​ 
But in fairness, it IS looking better:

http://youtu.be/3sb9fHztSNo


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

look at this image, from the bunch that whinnie posted:










look at that lovely head carriaege, deeply engaged hind, well under the body and the rider not leaning forward with "wheelbarrow" hands. that is an image of western harmony.


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## Horsef (May 1, 2014)

My riding school has a horse which would be a champion in this sport with no training whatsoever. My poor instructor is tearing her hair out trying to get us to ride that horse with any semblance of forward. I'll tell her she should just market him as WP horse


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

One final post.
I started this thread, so show a view from a judge, that has no vested interest, and it was her thoughts that I wanted to put out there, for comments. 
Unfortunately, she included a video, showing the bad western pl that is out there, and videos that people against the entire western pleasure industry, use to bash it.
Thank you, TinyLinny, for actually reading the intent of the post, realizing what that video represented, versus pouncing on it, as if I or that judge was actually using it as an example of western pl.
I don't expect everyone here to like western pl, but I do expect horse people to be able to recognize a truly good western pl horse, versus bashing the entire discipline.
I think everyone here, deep down realizes, in this day when anyone can catch video clips, the worst examples of every discipline can be found out there.
Whether ajudge should have to guts to gate an entire, class, is another topic onto itself. If every jumper takes down most of the course, should that entire class be excused?
How about every reiner in a class , dragging a hind lead, scotching in the stop? I can assure you, I can find those examples

Anyway, here is what I consider a nice horse, as it is only fair to put up a greaT example, if only to clarify that the video in that post is anything but what I consider western pl should be
This horse also won jr western riidng, as well as pleasure

Its A Southern Thing- AQHA Stallion


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie, the videos I posted were from the AQHA and a 20 minute video from the 2015 AQHA Congress. The video you just posted ("_His near flawless conformation lends to his exceptional movement and overall balance_." - from the YouTube posting) still shows a horse that is unnatural, with unnatural movements. If that is great breeding, then so is this:










I seem to have a reputation for being anti-dressage. Regardless, the motion of a horse in dressage is much more natural - much closer in balance and style to what I see horses doing on their own - than the video you just posted. When I went out to feed my horses this morning, after a violent storm last night, they all began running and jumping and acting like they were in some wild, manic dressage competition. They did NOT look like candidates for WP.

That is why I said it violates "natural law" - the rules that nature imposes and that humans supposedly can learn. The mechanics of that horse's movements are just wrong. Reining and dressage may not be my cup of tea, but neither violates nature.

If I showed that video to a bunch of school kids, they would ask, "*What is wrong with the horse?*" The answer would be "*Humans!*" Until a bunch of kids can watch a WP video without asking why the horses are sick, WP will have a problem.​


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, we will have to agree to disagree! 
By great breeding, it means not some aberration, taken to extreme, as some conformation traits on animals never asked to perform, as in that german shepard example, or in halter horses
Great breeding in a pleasure horse, is like great breeding in any other discipline, where that horse is ridden.
That pleasure horse has great conformation, form to function' Like any other discipline, be it racing, cutting, reining, sport horse, there are conformations and family lines that have proven themselves, and that is waht selective breeding implies in a performance horse.
In a pleasure horse, it is a horse with a natural level topline, a horse with a nice short back, like that horse, a horse that has a good hind end, so he can move deep hocked, and a horse that moves flat kneed, versus one with a lot of Knee action. A horse that naturally finds loping easy, and even when in the pasture, right from when they are colts, they will tend to rock back and lope off, versus just trotting faster and faster
"sorry'., your example of a 'halter dog' has no application, any more then a human weight lifter to a marathon runner.
A horse that can change leads , like this one, effortlessly on a loose rein, is anything but an animal that has conformation not conducive to athletic ability
You are perfectly free to like dressage better, but not to try and tell me that the horse in the video I posted, doe snot have great conformation, as it relates to performance


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Screen capture time:








​ 
That is not a nature-based motion. It may be what the horse has been bred to do, but breeding a horse to do something badly is not good breeding.

And no, that is not in any way "collection".


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I give you a challenge, do some 'screen captures from other events
It si also a fact that you can't make a poor mover into a good pleasure horse

For instance, and I'm not picking on dressage horses, but her is one, of a horse, being shown at upper level, and on the forehand



I will also give you a another test.
Take your horse, do a series of cadence flying lead changes, on a loose rein, without your horse having collection, and tell me how that goes for you
There is a reason that at breed shows ,and other upper venues, judges have to be carded, have to have junior judged, and thus, you will have to pardon me, if I take any of your 'judging critiques with a grain of sand!
Also, please, tell me what conformation flaws you see, that limits the horse I posted from being an athletic riding horse.


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## gypsygirl (Oct 15, 2009)

Smilie, I believe that is a bad example, not a good example !
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I thought he was a pretty nicely built stallion, for sure. you say he has a level topline. I didn't notice in particular. if so, why does he move so downhill? 
I can see that the movement is very natural to him. you see the same movement in his colts, too. 
it is exaggerated through training. 
he seemed like a very nice horse who tried his heart out. when being asked to spin, he really put in a good effort, considering how big he is, and how downhill his conformation, it seemed hard for him to lift his front and move it around in the spin. what I did like was seeing how beautifully he transitioned up and down, effortlessly, and the rider had fine control of his speed, which was a point that someone mentioned earlier that I had not thought of;
that being able to have a hrose go really slow is like having another 'speed' or gear on your car. it creates broader variety.

to me, it still looks very hulking and heavy in the way that the horse must fling his head up and down to get the lope, but a lot more natural than the other examples.
and, this is NOT my cup of tea, as I've been reminded, so no matter what, it won't look pretty to me.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

All I see is a discipline that began as a good thing and was then allowed to evolve into the nonsense that we're seeing today
Before anyone jumps on me (again) I am not bashing WP, I'm bashing what its become. 
Smilie - The nice grey horse you showed on the other threads doesn't even come close in outline to what we're seeing in the ring now. 
WP along with other western competitions is now appearing in the UK, their rules are taken from the AQHA guidelines on this discipline
Lets take a look
QUOTE (in italics)
Taken from Western Pleasure - AQHA UK
_A good pleasure horse has a free-flowing stride of reasonable length in keeping with his conformation. He should cover a reasonable amount of ground with little effort._
How can head bobbing be free flowing and how can that stilted shuffle be covering a reasonable amount of ground?
_Ideally, he should have a balanced, flowing motion, while exhibiting correct gaits that are of the proper cadence._
Again - not balanced or flowing
_The quality of the movement and the consistency of the gaits is a major consideration. *He should carry his head and neck in a relaxed, natural position, with his poll level with or slightly above the level of the withers.*_
Now there's the biggest fault - not happening.
_He should not carry his head behind the vertical, giving the appearance of intimidation, or be excessively nosed out, giving a resistant appearance._
_His head should be level with his nose slightly in front of the vertical, having a bright expression with his ears alert._
_He should be shown on a reasonably loose rein, but with light contact and control. He should be responsive, yet smooth, in transitions when called for._
_When asked to extend, he should move out with the same flowing motion._
Reasonable loose rein does not mean flapping with no sign of contact, not seeing any extension and no one could describe their staggering about form of a lope as flowing

These are faults that will result in elimination at anything but novice amateur or novice youth classes
_ Head carried too low (tip of ear below the withers consistently)_
_ Overflexing or straining neck in head carriage so the nose is carried behind the vertical consistently._
If I'd been in WP since the get go I'd be doing everything I could to get it back to what it should be, not defending what its become
If I read through the guidelines on the website and then watched some of these classes I'd think I was in the wrong ring


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I did see a couple of things. The horse is not supposed to travel with his ears consistently below the withers. See an example at 2:28.
Also I see a horse sometimes loping sideways, don't know if this is a serious fault, see 3:22.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

I agree with all of that Jaydee, especially this 

_A good pleasure horse has a free-flowing stride of reasonable length in keeping with his conformation. He should cover a reasonable amount of ground with little effort.

That is where my issue lies, I have ridden an ex pleasure horse, most comfortable horse I have ever ever ridden, bar none, but he was still forward, and covered some ground. I can't understand where the disconnect comes from the guidelines, to what I see in the videos that are shared these days. 

If judges judged to their own rules, then we should not see horses that are not forward, reins that are so long, and especially that crabbing sideways lope.

As ever the solution to a lot of issues lies with the judges, in more than just WP.

LOL, and as to this

_


> If every jumper takes down most of the course, should that entire class be excused?


No the course builder should be excused, because he/she got it wrong :wink:


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'm not sure what Smilie means by 'changing leads' on a loose rein without collection
Horses can change leads on their own running around a field
A good show jumper can change the lead his/her horse is on while in the air over the jump
Maybe I'm mis-reading it?


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...Also, please, tell me what conformation flaws you see, that limits the horse I posted from being an athletic riding horse.


He is built too downhill - too much weight carried on the front. That is why his spins look so awkward. Looks to me like a horse with a great personality, with a lot of try in him, but his breeding is making it hard for him to do what BLM Mustang Cowboy - all 13.0 hands of totally unplanned breeding - can do easily.

Trooper was another unplanned breeding. His sire broke thru one fence and mated a purebred Arabian mare through another fence. Where there is a will, there is a way!

He is NOT in any sense a show horse or a horse one would pick to compete in most sports...but when goofing off with my daughter, this is better balanced:








​ 
Than this:








​ 
This is western pleasure that I can understand and that would build respect from an audience. Pity it is an old picture [edit: picture shows up in preview...hmmm...when I can see the picture, it looks like good breeding and riding. Gotta work on my browser.]:


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Smilie I did read the article and what the woman should have done was post a video of WP horse that was correct in the way it moved and adhered to the rules.

Some years ago Boxer dogs were being bred in the UK that their noses were so short they looked like they had three eyes. This lead to health problems so the Boxer Soceity - not the KC which is just a registration business - made a rule that the noses had to be noses so, it happened, now Boxers here have noses.

I like the front end of the stallion you posted but he is greatly lacking in the quarters. 

I watched the video and he was certainly moving better than many but was still carrying his head very low and a lot of the time on three tracks cantering. 

I still stick by my wanting to show he whole class in the original video, the gate


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I'm not sure what Smilie means by 'changing leads' on a loose rein without collection
> Horses can change leads on their own running around a field
> A good show jumper can change the lead his/her horse is on while in the air over the jump
> Maybe I'm mis-reading it?


Nope, sure a horse can change leads moving at speed, they do it all the time in the pasture. They change leads out of speed and change of direction.
THAT is not what is required in western riding. That horse is changing leads, at precise locations, and on a straight line, with cadence, and without speeding up.
On a loose rein, you don't have that inside support rein, outside rein, ect, so that those changes lead with a more obvious hip into lead, as he is changing off of leg and seat cues alone
Changing leads, with change of direction, at speed, is easy, peasy, with a lot of fairly green horses able to do so. Try it, setting up plyons, and see how easy that is to do on a loose rein.Heck, try it even holding onto the face!
I have put superiors on a few horses in western riding, so like to think I know a little more here that most, the degree of ability and training it takes, as I have also changes lead, just out of speed, on afairly green horse, and there is no comparison. heck, most games horses do it all the time, running at speed, but ask them to change leads at a cadenced lope on the straight, and the horse can;t do it
Anyone wanting to debate/bash western pleasure horses further, go to Pleasure Horse on line forum, and perhaps other scan continue the debate with you, as I am just getting stressed, which defeats the entire purpose of even being on these forums in the first place
BMSM, when you get beyond not caring what lead a horse picks up, not worrying about a horse that neck reins, being able to also perform one handed, doing all maneuvers, when you no longer believe a horse should not have all his education in a snaffle, before going on to a curb, perhaps we can have a reasonable discussion
perhaps, people will get bored, and find another discipline to bash-whatever, I'm done!


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Smilie said:


> ...BMSM, when you get beyond not caring what lead a horse picks up, not worrying about a horse that neck reins, being able to also perform one handed, doing all maneuvers, when you no longer believe a horse should not have all his education in a snaffle, before going on to a curb, perhaps we can have a reasonable discussion
> perhaps, people will get bored, and find another discipline to bash-whatever, I'm done!


Ummm...my horses DO neck rein. They do one handed what I ask of them (which isn't much), and right now all three are ridden entirely in a snaffle. But I have put a green horse in a curb and had great results from it, so I know it CAN be done. That is a basic principle in life: What HAS been done, CAN be done. 

My goal in training Bandit is to teach HIM to take care of his feet, his strides and his balance rather than rely on me - to teach him judgment. And as the saying goes, good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment...so sometimes I'm content to let him have "bad judgment" and learn from it. Neither of us will ever ride at a high level, but our goal is a mutually HAPPY level. THAT is a goal I think we can reach! We're making good progress toward it, at least.

But if you think the horse in the video you linked to is a well-balanced horse, moving with collection and athletic grace, then I guess we do not have much to talk about. He seems like a wonderful horse in many ways, but not a horse bred to be well balanced and graceful.

As Cicero wrote 2,000 years ago:"True Law is right reason in agreement with nature: it is of universal application, unchanging and ever lasting; it summons to duty by its commands, and averts from wrongdoing by its prohibitions. It is a sin to try to alter this law, nor is it allowable to repeal any part of it, and it is impossible to abolish it entirely. We cannot be freed from its obligations by senate or people..."​Right movement in a horse is movement in agreement with nature. The old pictures of WP show that. The new do not. Dressage shows it. Reining does. Jumping does. Barrel racing does. WP does not. The change has nothing to do with me or how I ride, nor do they depend on how many years I've ridden or how many horses I have owned. Someone who has never owned a horse or ridden one can tell the difference. It takes years of show experience to miss it.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

bsms said:


> He is built too downhill - too much weight carried on the front. That is why his spins look so awkward. Looks to me like a horse with a great personality, with a lot of try in him, but his breeding is making it hard for him to do what BLM Mustang Cowboy - all 13.0 hands of totally unplanned breeding - can do easily.
> 
> Trooper was another unplanned breeding. His sire broke thru one fence and mated a purebred Arabian mare through another fence. Where there is a will, there is a way!
> 
> ...


Those two pictures are taken at different points of the canter stride. If you had one of Trooper with all his weight on one front leg his head would be lower too.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

My sense of this thread, and the thread that begat it, is that the very large majority of posters do not like AQHA Western Pleasure as it is now. Their dislike, informed and not, ranges through indifference, bewilderment, disgust, up to righteous indignation, but it is almost 100% negative. 

I would like people to post video links to Quarter Horses *moving the way they would like to see* in a western pleasure class. In an arena. Clearly, it could not be an actual western pleasure class, because, you know, nobody likes those. But even one single horse moving in a close to ideal way in your opinion, I think would add to the discussion.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

It took a bit of searching to find a horse whose movements I appreciated. This horse is not carrying itself so low in the front. As a result of the forehand not being weighed by the low forehand, the haunch is able to engage. You can see how it is stepping under itself, propelling with the haunch. Too many of the WP horses, whose photos I rejected, were pulling thmselves with the forehand. This horse shows true engagement and collection, IMO.










This horse has such engagement that it is actually tracking up. No other WP horse did that. Not what any judge would pin, I suspect.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

I was getting confused because everyone was describing what was good movement and frame, but nobody was posting a video. I wasn't sure if some of the videos were supposed to be considered desirable movement or not, but none of them looked desirable to me.

I agree, it would be really helpful for those trying to educate us on WP SHOW us what you are talking about.

Wait, I see Allison posted something! I agree, those horses look great!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

This is what I myself think of as a western pleasure walk and lope. Plus instead of the ramrod artificial posture of many western pleasure class riders, Buck rides like he growed there. 

buck brannaman clip


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Smilie, any horse that's been properly trained to have 'self carriage' will be able to change leads at a slow pace in canter - a dressage horse in collected canter should not be held in that position by a hard hand, the rider should ask for the head position with a light hand and then release the pressure
That is why this horse can perform like this and change leads at a slow canter without even a bridle - he's been taught self carriage




 This one just starting out at lead changes without a bridle




 And a lovely demonstration by David O'Connor who's performance including turns and lead changes without a bridle makes that stallion's moves look very clumsy


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Avna said:


> This is what I myself think of as a western pleasure walk and lope. Plus instead of the ramrod artificial posture of many western pleasure class riders, Buck rides like he growed there.
> 
> buck brannaman clip


Now, isn't that BEAUTIFUL. The horse looks like he FEELs like a horse. :loveshower: :loveshower:


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

I am agreeing with bsms’ take on this. WP is not my discipline, but I have nothing against it. I even think it is quite beautiful when it is natural and not the parody that the WP show-ring is. 

Smilie - your example ‘moonpie’ I’m sure is a fine horse, and of course with just one photo you can’t make a comprehensive judgement on it. He does look level across the top, but look where his feet are .. to me his front legs look short. I have put a photo of Native Dancer next to him as a comparison.

View attachment 751546


Tinyliny - Moonpie’s transitions looked very jerky to me, either he is anticipating a routine he has done ad-nauseum or he is anticipating pain. The control of speed - what speed? Though at least this example has some impulsion.

Jaydee -


> All I see is a discipline that began as a good thing and was then allowed to evolve into the nonsense that we're seeing today


 and


> If I'd been in WP since the get go I'd be doing everything I could to get it back to what it should be, not defending what its become


:iagree:

Using Jaydees points
A good pleasure horse has a free-flowing stride of reasonable length in keeping with his conformation. 
---But it seems horses are being bred with awful conformation to meet ridiculous standards
He should cover a reasonable amount of ground with little effort.
---That might be ok if you are just going down the road to the corner shop! I mean, really? I have not seen any example of covering ground.
Ideally, he should have a balanced, flowing motion, while exhibiting correct gaits that are of the proper cadence.
---Flowing? Correct gaits? Cadence? That lame hop, are we really seeing the same thing?!!
The quality of the movement and the consistency of the gaits is a major consideration. He should carry his head and neck in a relaxed, natural position, with his poll level with or slightly above the level of the withers.
---I have never seen a horse naturally lope across a paddock with his head down round his knees. I think ‘relaxed’ has been taken to an extreme and the resulting whipped dog look is not attractive.

Natisha -


> Those two pictures are taken at different points of the canter stride. If you had one of Trooper with all his weight on one front leg his head would be lower too


 ---But his head wont end up round his knees, and he looks straight unlike that downhill horse in the competition.

Allison - They look much nicer!! The grey has funny back legs but certainly looks to be moving much more naturally.

:gallop:


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

I'm sure it takes a lot of training to do what these pleasure horses do as well they sure have to be athletic and capable but to me the question is: are they following the rules and regulations set down by AQHA for a WP class.
Rules are there for a reason and should be followed.

I remember one time I went to a show and the Judge talked to us before the class started ( at this time there was discussion about the peanut rollers and four beat lope) and this Judge let us know that we would be marked down for these practises. This was not an AQHA show but he was trying to follow their mandate by not placing horses that went to extremes. Too bad there weren't more Judges like him at that time.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

that David Oconnor ride was lovely.

but, that brings up an interesting point; if the training of WP builds a horse that can move very slow, and hopefully, stay balanced enough to move out faster in a smooth transitioin, then back slower (have many gears/speeds) then, that is a good thing. 

I wonder why they don't start incorporating that. show the horse do a real extended trot or canter, then back slow, then halt, back, walk to lope to walk, to hand gallop, etc. tthat would show the horse is capable of all, and each gait is at the fingertips of the rider, AND, on a loose rein at that!


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> that David Oconnor ride was lovely.
> 
> but, that brings up an interesting point; if the training of WP builds a horse that can move very slow, and hopefully, stay balanced enough to move out faster in a smooth transitioin, then back slower (have many gears/speeds) then, that is a good thing.
> 
> I wonder why they don't start incorporating that. show the horse do a real extended trot or canter, then back slow, then halt, back, walk to lope to walk, to hand gallop, etc. tthat would show the horse is capable of all, and each gait is at the fingertips of the rider, AND, on a loose rein at that!


 I remember the Open HUS classes I used to show in (long ago) doing just that. All the gears, walk, collected walk, extended walk, then same with trot and so on.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Here's the BIG problem with the WP critiques on the internet. Y'all don't ride WP, you do ride hunt seat and dressage. WP is not either one, nor was it ever intended to be. If the changes y'all want were incorporated into a WP class it wouldn't be WP at all anymore. I am NOT defending the current shambles the WP ring is in, I don't care for the troping and wogging that goes on, nor do I care for the conformation of a lot of the horses. But I don't want to ride Hunt in a Western Saddle and I don't want to ride Dressage exactly the same as the rest of the Dressage world, just in a Western saddle. There are some valid reasons why Western is a whole 'nuther animal, the show ring just seems to have forgotten a lot of them.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Here's the BIG problem with the WP critiques on the internet. Y'all don't ride WP, you do ride hunt seat and dressage. WP is not either one, nor was it ever intended to be. If the changes y'all want were incorporated into a WP class it wouldn't be WP at all anymore. I am NOT defending the current shambles the WP ring is in, I don't care for the troping and wogging that goes on, nor do I care for the conformation of a lot of the horses. But I don't want to ride Hunt in a Western Saddle and I don't want to ride Dressage exactly the same as the rest of the Dressage world, just in a Western saddle. There are some valid reasons why Western is a whole 'nuther animal, the show ring just seems to have forgotten a lot of them.


Buck Brannaman actually rides western, in a western saddle. That's why I posted that clip. I too felt that showing video of people riding in an entirely different style is beside the point. Are there that few Quarter Horses ridden at a walk, jog, lope on video that seem good examples of true western pleasure?


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Avna said:


> Buck Brannaman actually rides western, in a western saddle. That's why I posted that clip. I too felt that showing video of people riding in an entirely different style is beside the point. Are there that few Quarter Horses ridden at a walk, jog, lope on video that seem good examples of true western pleasure?


Buck Brannaman just rides. Just because he's in a western saddle doesn't mean he's riding WP. He's also not an equitation rider. He has an excellent seat, not saying he's not a good rider but he's not an eq rider. 

I can't say I've seen what I would consider a good, comfortable, well collected WP horse in years. Back in the 70's the videos were pretty rare, but those horses moved out a whole lot more than today's horses do. It was called Stock Seat back then, if I remember correctly.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Here's the BIG problem with the WP critiques on the internet. Y'all don't ride WP, you do ride hunt seat and dressage. WP is not either one, nor was it ever intended to be. If the changes y'all want were incorporated into a WP class it wouldn't be WP at all anymore. I am NOT defending the current shambles the WP ring is in, I don't care for the troping and wogging that goes on, nor do I care for the conformation of a lot of the horses. But I don't want to ride Hunt in a Western Saddle and I don't want to ride Dressage exactly the same as the rest of the Dressage world, just in a Western saddle. There are some valid reasons why Western is a whole 'nuther animal, the show ring just seems to have forgotten a lot of them.


That is kind of the point. 

Those that compete WP have been brainwashed into accepting this weird parody of western riding as ideal, that you would never see on a real ranch. It is people like me that don't ride western that is pointing out how bizarre your show stock and events have become. The winners of these classes should exemplify an animal that could go out and work all day in that discipline (with rests of course!). They should show the excellent qualities of suppleness, strength, conformation and obedience of a horse that is ideal for REAL ranch work, not some surreal travesty of those beautiful hard-working animals. Most of the examples we have been shown bunny-hop round a ring and probably would't last a day doing real work. I don't know what use a horse is with short front legs, that is a really strange thing to breed for.

And just because we don't ride WP, doesn't mean we don't like it. I have actually had very little exposure to it. 

:gallop:


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ShirtHotTeez said:


> That is kind of the point.
> 
> Those that compete WP have been brainwashed into accepting this weird parody of western riding as ideal, that you would never see on a real ranch. It is people like me that don't ride western that is pointing out how bizarre your show stock and events have become. The winners of these classes should exemplify an animal that could go out and work all day in that discipline (with rests of course!). They should show the excellent qualities of suppleness, strength, conformation and obedience of a horse that is ideal for REAL ranch work, not some surreal travesty of those beautiful hard-working animals. Most of the examples we have been shown bunny-hop round a ring and probably would't last a day doing real work. I don't know what use a horse is with short front legs, that is a really strange thing to breed for.
> 
> ...


I'm not saying you don't like it. I'm just saying that those who do ride it and show in it, don't feel the need to justify it to those who don't. Just as I'll tell someone I'm not here to live up to their expectations, the WP riders pretty much feel the same way, they don't show to please anyone else. WP is not about real ranch work. Look to Ranch Versatility for that sort of thing, or cutting or reining or reined cow. WP has no real reason to exist outside a show ring. I mean, come on, when's the last time you saw anyone dressed in a $10,000 show outfit, riding a $20,000 custom made saddle out fixing fence? Ain't gonna happen.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Buck Brannaman just rides. Just because he's in a western saddle doesn't mean he's riding WP. He's also not an equitation rider. He has an excellent seat, not saying he's not a good rider but he's not an eq rider.
> 
> ......


Of course he isn't. He is a working cowboy with a useful stock horse, who is clearly a _pleasure_ to ride. Buck is as western as the day is long. Guy can rope your hat off your head. 

If western pleasure classes aimed to showcase riding like this, and horses like this, even I would come down and watch. And no one could possibly make any of the dire criticisms they make now.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Avna said:


> Of course he isn't. He is a working cowboy with a useful stock horse, who is clearly a _pleasure_ to ride. Buck is as western as the day is long. Guy can rope your hat off your head.
> 
> If western pleasure classes aimed to showcase riding like this, and horses like this, even I would come down and watch. And no one could possibly make any of the dire criticisms they make now.


I totally agree with you.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm not saying you don't like it. I'm just saying that those who do ride it and show in it, don't feel the need to justify it to those who don't. Just as I'll tell someone I'm not here to live up to their expectations, the WP riders pretty much feel the same way, they don't show to please anyone else. WP is not about real ranch work. Look to Ranch Versatility for that sort of thing, or cutting or reining or reined cow. WP has no real reason to exist outside a show ring. I mean, come on, when's the last time you saw anyone dressed in a $10,000 show outfit, riding a $20,000 custom made saddle out fixing fence? Ain't gonna happen.


It seems to me that, in a way, they do have to justify it, whether they feel the need or not. Unlike, say, an Arabian native costume class, which is clearly and obviously pure fantasy, they are supposedly demonstrating certain useful qualities of a horse -- not a ranch horse, a _western pleasure_ horse -- which are clearly stated in the rules. The problem is, they aren't convincing anyone except the other inhabitants of the tiny world they live in -- everyone else thinks them freakish. Maybe they don't give a hoot what they really look like to the outside world, but the AQHA does -- at least their PR dept.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Ever heard the expression, "Speaking out of both sides of your face"? That's the show world. And don't get me started on the Arab show world.... I have more experience and stories there than you can believe. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Mc75F7TLo


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Arab video: yikes.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Avna said:


> Arab video: yikes.


Better than the QH's? No? What then? It's their money, their horses, their show.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

natisha said:


> Those two pictures are taken at different points of the canter stride. If you had one of Trooper with all his weight on one front leg his head would be lower too.


No. Trooper's head doesn't move much at a canter. Lots of pictures of him at a canter, and NONE have his head way low.



Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> ...There are some valid reasons why Western is a whole 'nuther animal, the show ring just seems to have forgotten a lot of them.


Yes, western IS different. But the photo of WP from a few decades ago looks like a good, balanced horse doing WP. Still not my cup of tea, but nothing unnatural about it. No one looking at the photo would think the horse was in pain, or wonder why it couldn't move naturally.

Something the show world always needs to resist is the temptation to take things to an extreme that defeats the foundation it is built on. And WP has gone too far past it, and is correcting - but has a way to go. The recent videos DO look better than the ones from 5-8 years ago.


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## ShirtHotTeez (Sep 23, 2014)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm not saying you don't like it. I'm just saying that those who do ride it and show in it, don't feel the need to justify it to those who don't. Just as I'll tell someone I'm not here to live up to their expectations, the WP riders pretty much feel the same way, they don't show to please anyone else. WP is not about real ranch work. Look to Ranch Versatility for that sort of thing, or cutting or reining or reined cow. WP has no real reason to exist outside a show ring. I mean, come on, when's the last time you saw anyone dressed in a $10,000 show outfit, riding a $20,000 custom made saddle out fixing fence? Ain't gonna happen.


I just think that the industry should be breeding showcase animals that are capable of being those strong working animals. So we compete our horses because we like the whole showmanship thing but lets also encourage the breeding of good strong classy animals that strut their natural pride, not these tragic, beaten, stunted creatures that show no natural horse traits, more like abused puppies.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> Better than the QH's? No? What then? It's their money, their horses, their show.


point taken.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> I'm not saying you don't like it. I'm just saying that those who do ride it and show in it, don't feel the need to justify it to those who don't. Just as I'll tell someone I'm not here to live up to their expectations, the WP riders pretty much feel the same way, they don't show to please anyone else. WP is not about real ranch work. Look to Ranch Versatility for that sort of thing, or cutting or reining or reined cow. WP has no real reason to exist outside a show ring. I mean, come on, when's the last time you saw anyone dressed in a $10,000 show outfit, riding a $20,000 custom made saddle out fixing fence? Ain't gonna happen.



I agree. what I wanted to know, on my original thread, was if anyone could explain the mystique of it, the attraction, why they loved it. some good points were brought up . if no one CAN explain why they like it, then that would be a bad sign, IMO. even if they only like it for the costumes, at least that's a reason I can grasp.

I was having trouble grasping the attraction because of the very unnatural, forced, even painful look of the way the horses went, and that did not seem like something anyone would like. so, color me confused.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

If the Arabians showing in WP are under the same rules as the AQH in terms of where the poll and ears are in relation to the withers then they're also breaking the rules. I can see why a judge would struggle to place them because they're all doing the same thing, I suppose he/she could eliminate them all or he could read out the rules at the start of the class and tell them all to get their horses heads up
As for the point about only non WP people criticizing on the internet because they don't ride or understand it - well as Cherie and Allison have both pointed out on another thread that isn't the case
This is an link to an article by Tom Chown (renowned trainer, breeder, and three time NSBA Hall of Fame inductee)and Melinda Davison that I've taken some quotes from. The whole thing is worth reading as this is an opinion from someone who does understand the discipline and how its got to where it shouldn't be now
http://www.pleasurehorse.com/latest-news/western-pleasure-its-time-to-move-forward-and-straighten-things-out/#.VrC3xf_2b4Y
_Western Pleasure has evolved from a class to showcase working horses’ ability to ride comfortably and obediently on the rail to a specialized event _
_“We are in an era where we have bred the best moving horses in the history of western pleasure, but the current training methods have taken these horses and completely torn apart their natural movement and changed the way our horses are going,” he explains. “We’ve gone from movement that is flowing and natural with true collection and self- carriage, to something that is mechanical and labored.”_
_As with anything, it’s all about balance. If you go to the extremes to have the lowest headset, the slowest horse, and the deepest hock, you’re going to sacrifice the balance and integrity of the horse’s natural way of going. A horse that is loping in the pasture carries itself with “self carriage,” in a way that is comfortable and natural. He naturally lifts his ribcage and back, or his “core,” and uses his head and neck for balance. However, for those who have never seen this natural flowing movement, it can be hard to visualize. _
_Chown explains that the topline of the horse should always be parallel with the rail. In order to maintain that parallel topline, and show the roundness in his back, the horse has to be able to lift his ribs and back, his “core”, and use his legs like a pendulum. If the horse does not lift his “core” and instead hollows out his back, then the result is a discombobulated gait with the horse struggling to compensate for the lack of lift and the front end moving separately from the back end. When a horse correctly lifts his “core,” and uses his body like it’s designed to be used, the result is a smoother, free-flowing stride that is pretty to watch and shows the beauty of the animal._
_Another issue that is commonly seen in today’s western pleasure ring is excessive slowness._
_“People tend to have the perception that the slower the horse goes, the better he must be, but that isn’t true at all,” he says. “A horse has to be able to have forward motion with the ‘lift’ that we talked about before. If you look at today’s western riding horses, they move through the pattern with impulsion because they wouldn’t be able to change leads without it. Their backs are lifted and they have free-flowing movement, which allows them to carry their heads and necks in a natural position, without excessive movement. This is what we refer to as self carriage and is how our western pleasure horses should look as well.”_
_As mentioned earlier, the horse must use his back, or “core,” for lift and for suspension, but the power comes from the drive in his hips and loin. Any correct movement, whether it is a lead change for western riding or a proper spin for horsemanship, requires power and forward motion from the hind end of the horse, which powers the lift and the step up front needed for speed. When a horse doesn’t properly engage his hind end, allowing him to lift his ribcage/back, or core, the result is a loss of power or impulsion with the front end moving separately from the hind end preventing him from building momentum to continue to move forward, speed up or slow down even more. When the horse’s front end is moving separately from the hind end, he struggles to maintain his balance which results in the “head bobbing,” or exaggerated up and down movement in the head and neck that we see going down the rail at many shows today._
_“There are two reasons a horse bobs his head,” Chown states. “He’s either lame or he is laboring, or struggling to move forward and maintain his balance. His head and neck are his balance! I don’t care what event it is. When his head and neck are moving up and down, he is not balanced at all and appears to be lame. So, is he in fact lame, or is this what we have all agreed to accept as a true lope?” Chown says. “Absolutely not. As owners and trainers, we all know to look for lameness when we see a horse move, even at the jog or trot, with his head bobbing up and down, or excessive movement. Why then do we reward this same presentation in the show ring at the lope? This is wrong.”_

How the WP horses used to look and what they need to get back too


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

The thing about the article is that it is all very well _talking_ about it but getting judges to stand by their convictions is another matter. 

I appreciate the training that must go into these horses, I understand what it must take, what I cannot understand is why it has been allowed to get to such a farcical point where very few agree with it, WP fans included.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

This video has a little bit of explanation.....

http://youtu.be/Dp_bFVGbVA4


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## sonib82 (Jul 24, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> I agree. what I wanted to know, on my original thread, was if anyone could explain the mystique of it, the attraction, why they loved it. some good points were brought up . if no one CAN explain why they like it, then that would be a bad sign, IMO. even if they only like it for the costumes, at least that's a reason I can grasp.
> 
> I was having trouble grasping the attraction because of the very unnatural, forced, even painful look of the way the horses went, and that did not seem like something anyone would like. so, color me confused.


Well, I'm going to give this a shot at least. I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone on this forum who is going to defend some of the videos that have been posted - the really over-canted, artificially slow gaits. I have never asked my horses to move like that and I wouldn't work with a trainer who tried to force that either. I have, however, shown western pleasure in the past, and plan to again in a couple years, once my two year old is ready to go.

I've had the opportunity to ride a really good western pleasure horse before - very big hip, strong hock, and stifle. He was just super powerful through the back end. When I loped on him, it felt like I was floating - he had so much lift coming from behind. We weren't going very fast, but you could just sit back and enjoy the ride. That might have bored some people, but personally I thought it was a lot of fun.

Why do I like western pleasure? Again, I'm not advocating the extremes, but why do I like it the way that I ride? It's actually not easy to get your horse so strong, so tuned into you that you can essentially ride a nice slow lope on a loose rein. That takes a lot of work - and I've never gotten there by putting big bits on my horse and jerking their face off. I do a ton of lateral work - dressage movements, etc. to strengthen them so they can drive so deeply behind themselves, lift through their shoulders, etc. - all while I don't have a hold of their face. So, yes, I feel accomplished when I can get my horse to that level that he can do that; it wasn't easy!

WP is supposed to be a class about showing your horse - how nicely he moves, how well trained he is. There are other classes that show more the usability of a horse - that's not what pleasure was ever meant for as a class. It will never be the only class I show in, but I do enjoy going in there and showing the horse that I have.

I personally will never show AQHA, simply because of the added expense of the horse and how extreme/specialized you need to be in order to be competitive. I show ApHC regionally, and hope that I will still be competitive in a couple of years with my version of WP. Maybe I'm naive for thinking that, but I'll stick with it for now 

I realize I didn't really address your initial question but it was the best that I could do.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I agree. what I wanted to know, on my original thread, was if anyone could explain the mystique of it, the attraction, why they loved it. some good points were brought up . if no one CAN explain why they like it, then that would be a bad sign, IMO. even if they only like it for the costumes, at least that's a reason I can grasp.
> 
> I was having trouble grasping the attraction because of the very unnatural, forced, even painful look of the way the horses went, and that did not seem like something anyone would like. so, color me confused.


LOL! Me too Tiny, I don't get it either. I DO like it for the gorgeous costumes, the comfy saddles with all that lovely silver, and in the Arabs the gorgeous headstalls and Romel reins. I truly don't get the split rein thing, and don't like the crabbed gaits. I guess they're comfy to ride, don't look it, but I guess they are because when I've gotten my horses slowed down to that Wog, it's very smooth.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

Oh Brava! SoniB, that's a very good explanation of why we like WP. It IS hard. All my life everyone told me that since I rode English, I didn't need to worry about Western it was MUCH easier. Well, I started training in it and found that sentiment to be VERY untrue. Those horses take a lot of finesse to ride properly, and you have to develop a whole 'nuther set of muscles and it hurts while you do it.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> All my life everyone told me that since I rode English, I didn't need to worry about Western it was MUCH easier.


LOL spoken by those who either haven't done it, or who just sit and point, any discipline in any saddle, ridden properly is hard work:wink:


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Well said, Soni


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

i LOVE green trees vid! LOVE IT! that is an event i would spend money on to show in. that is something my horses can and will do. that is what WP once was and i would like to see it there again. 

I would not call the gaits of these horses free flowing but as a whole they were A LOT better! no low headsets! though i suspect the tobiano was actually lame. not being mean or picking i mean he looks lame on his front end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw8nM4z_7ck

and event these kids on their poky little show ponys dont have a incredibly low head set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NMwgHxWvXE


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

ROFL, at the risk of being really mean, in that first video WHAT is with the Thelwell Pony Equitation of a couple of those folks? 









The kids in the 2nd video had much better legs.


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## anndankev (Aug 9, 2010)

Just want to point out that some of the pictures posted (the more favorable ones) have actually been of Horsemanship rather than Western Pleasure. 

They can be told apart by the hand position of the rider.
Western Pleasure has the hand not holding the rein straight down to the side.
Horsemanship (equivalent of Equitation) have the free hand with bent elbow, in basically the same position as the rein hand.

WP is supposed to be judged on the horse alone, his way of going. Not the rider.

Horsemanship is supposed to be judged on the combined performance of horse and rider, and horses response to the rider. There are 2 parts to a Horsemanship class: first an individually performed pattern; second a group rail riding portion (shorter than WP).

Also want to comment on the video in Smilie's post of the 2015 WP class. Nearly everyone posted how awful it was to watch. In my opinion it was way better than most classes I've seen. Still not what I would like to see, but way better than what I've been seeing in recent years, even at Congress.

I went to Congress in 2015 but did not watch any classes. In 2014 I happened to go in the Coliseum during a WP class. It was so much worse, in my opinion anyway.

The way of lopeing has been referred to as Oil Pumping around here:


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> He is NOT in any sense a show horse or a horse one would pick to compete in most sports...but when goofing off with my daughter, this is better balanced:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am confused why you are comparing two loping photos when the horse's are not in the same point in stride?

It would be more appropriate to compare the shot of Trooper, to this shot of the horse in question, as they are both in the same point of stride in the lope. 

Sure, you could still argue the horse travels a smidge front heavy, despite reaching under himself well. 

But he's not hollowed out like Trooper is.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

anndankev said:


> Western Pleasure has the hand not holding the rein straight down to the side.
> Horsemanship (equivalent of Equitation) have the free hand with bent elbow, in basically the same position as the rein hand.


Just want to point out that even though you might commonly see this, it is not any sort of true requirement or rule.

When I show WP, I have my hand up just like I do for horsemanship and for reining. It is more comfortable for me there so that's where I hold it. Yes, of course, I'm just showing locally and for my own enjoyment, but there is no rule that says you have to hold your free hand in a certain place.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Thelwell riding aside - the horses in KigerQueen's first video actually looked relaxed, smooth, no shuffling paces, no overly low heads, much more balanced
Now it would be great if the more professional experienced riders could just put more polish and refinement on that instead of how it seems to go - the higher up the food chain they go the more you see the ugly gaits, drooping heads, flapping reins and snail pace speed


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Thelwell riding aside - the horses in KigerQueen's first video actually looked relaxed, smooth, no shuffling paces, no overly low heads, much more balanced
> Now it would be great if the more professional experienced riders could just put more polish and refinement on that instead of how it seems to go - the higher up the food chain they go the more you see the ugly gaits, drooping heads, flapping reins and snail pace speed


Agreed Jaydee.


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

My confusion stems from what I read in the AQHA Handbook (section 331, page 114 "Western Gaits") and (section 405 page 128 "Western Pleasure".)

What is in my mind's eye when I read these descriptions is no where near what the posted 20125 AQHA Western Pleasure class was showing. It seems a shame that the powers-that-be don't do something about judging that allows this.

https://www.aqha.com/membership/resources/rulebook/


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

It is the same in MOST breed rule books....for goodness sakes...Arabian Country Pleasure says " excessive action to be penalized"!!!!!


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> i LOVE green trees vid! LOVE IT! that is an event i would spend money on to show in. that is something my horses can and will do. that is what WP once was and i would like to see it there again.
> 
> I would not call the gaits of these horses free flowing but as a whole they were A LOT better! no low headsets! though i suspect the tobiano was actually lame. not being mean or picking i mean he looks lame on his front end.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw8nM4z_7ck
> ...


You would love SHOT....at the first clinic that I attended, I did the pleasure class section...and the instructor was the 80-something year old founder of the org.....he said "we call it western pleasure because we couldn't think of another name....if anybody has a BETTER one, we would gladly change it!"


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

beau159 said:


> I am confused why you are comparing two loping photos when the horse's are not in the same point in stride?
> 
> ...Sure, you could still argue the horse travels a smidge front heavy, despite reaching under himself well.
> 
> But he's not hollowed out like Trooper is...


First, Trooper does not bob his head up and down, up and down, up and down with every stride. It would be impossible for me to get a picture of him with his head way low while cantering because he doesn't canter with his center of gravity out front.

In the video of the horse Smilie likes, he is way over on the front, head up and down constantly. A well balanced horse doesn't move like that.

Nor is Trooper hollowed out. Sorry, but I have a lot of experience with horses riding hollowed out, mostly now on Bandit - who got that way carrying a very heavy rider very fast. So yes, I know what it feels like, and it does NOT feel like Trooper.

Trooper's balance is far enough back that he can change directions in a heartbeat. He is not strung out - something I had ample time to experience with Mia when she was learning to canter. The WP horse is cantering like Mia did when she was first learning to canter. Fortunately, she got better with practice...

Try taking a look at the video of the horse Smilie liked. His canter sucks. If you think any horse should ever look like this at any point while cantering - and this horse looked like this all the time - then I guess we have a different idea of how a horse moves.










I've never seen a healthy horse look like that at any time cantering. If you watch the rider's seat in the video, she is NOT getting a smooth ride! She is not getting a "pleasurable ride". Look at the video at the 2:50 mark and how the back is affecting the rider.

But if this looks like a collected canter to you, or a canter that someone ought to be happy with, alternating between the above picture and the below...OK:










But that horse is not balanced, ready to turn quickly, etc.

No, I haven't been riding since the Lord was in high school, but that horse's canter is NOT right. It is not natural and not balanced, and neither smooth nor responsive. TAKE A LOOK AT THE VIDEO. Look at the point of least vertical motion, the pivot point of the back. Horses pivot around their center of motion. Forget about "horse" for a moment and think "mechanics". The mechanics of that horses motion is all wrong.

As I pointed out in my post: _"He [Trooper] is NOT in any sense a show horse or a horse one would pick to compete in most sports...but when goofing off with my daughter, this is better balanced...than this_". That is a correct statement. There is a reason Trooper was not bobbing up and down, and why his back wasn't pivoting around his shoulder.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

bsms said:


> Nor is Trooper hollowed out.


Looking at the picture you posted, Trooper looks like a hollowed out horse to me. Head in the air with lack of rounding in the back. 



bsms said:


> Trooper's balance is far enough back that he can change directions in a heartbeat.


Just because a horse can "change directions in a heart beat" does not make them balanced. 

I've seen plenty of horses at the local gymkhanas with hollowed out horses, heads in the air, and chicken-flapping riders that could also_ change directions in a heartbeat_. It certainly had nothing to do with them being "balanced", because of course, they were not.




bsms said:


> First, Trooper does not bob his head up and down, up and down, up and down with every stride.


I assume you are talking about the lope, since the lope is what we are discussing. 

Honestly, I'd be concerned if there WASN'T some sort of degree of head motion with a lope. A horse that travels stiff (and hollowed out) may not move their head at the lope, but I would find that _not_ natural at all.

It's completely normal for a horse to move their head (to a certain degree) with their stride while loping. This is why (for example) when you are riding with contact in English, your hands very slightly move forward and backward in a slight circular motion so that you keep perfect even contact with the horse while their head is naturally moving at the lope. If you held your hands completely still and tried to keep contact, you'd have moments where the reins would go tight and moments where they would go slack. 

As has already been discussed at length with WP, no one likes seeing excessive head movement at the lope. But a little bit of movement _IS_ normal.



bsms said:


> She is not getting a "pleasurable ride". Look at the video at the 2:50 mark and how the back is affecting the rider.


Maybe you should actually pay attention to the video. 

She did a *flying lead change* at that precise moment. Hence you see a change in her seat. 

I know I change my seat a bit too when asking my horse to do a proper flying lead change on a loose rein, using leg and seat cues only. 



bsms said:


> No, I haven't been riding since the Lord was in high school, but that horse's canter is NOT right.


As I already stated, I do agree that he's a bit heavier on the front end than I would like to see. BUT for some horses, that is their build and it may always be a trouble spot for them. 

Red is also front end heavy, naturally. I'm always having to focus on that with him. 

I agree that I don't like how he looks when they slow him down for the western pleasure classes. But when they let him move out a little faster for the horsemanship classes, I think he looks pretty decent. I just love his flying lead changes; they look effortless to him.



bsms said:


> then I guess we have a different idea of how a horse moves.


Yes, clearly we do.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't believe that a head in the air with the nose out means the back is hollowed out, and many horses that people perceive as being "hollowed out" are actually using their bodies very well mechanically.

































I go along with this opinion:
"This was 1969 and we were, at that time, already far away from the infantile idea that a single action such as lowering the neck could flex the whole thoracolumbar spine..."
"Longitudinal flexion of the horse’s thoracolumbar spine is instead, created by the precise coordination of the main back muscles that are situated above the vertebral bodies..."

"One of the most common deceptions is the belief that the lowering of the neck flexes the lumbar vertebrae and increases their range of motion. The optical illusion was explained in 1986 by Jean Marie Denoix. The lowering of the neck reduces the mobility of the lumbar vertebrae. This is true for every horse. Stiffening of the lumbar vertebrae hampers proper dorso-ventral rotation of the pelvis and therefore sound kinematics of the hind legs. In order to compensate for the stiffening of the lumbar vertebrae, the horse increases the work of the iliopsoas muscles, which swings the hind limbs forward. Since the iliopsoas is placed under the lumbosacral junction, increased work of the iliopsoas muscle does induce greater rotation of the lumbosacral junction. This lumbosacral rotation does give the optical illusion that the whole lumbar region moves. In fact, the lumbar vertebrae do not flex. Instead, the horse compensates for the rigidity of the lumbar spine, that was created by the lowering of the neck, with greater intensity in the lumbosacral junction that is situated behind the lumbar vertebrae. The theories of relaxation, stretching and greater mobility of the vertebral column are naïve interpretations of a mechanism which in fact, is working exactly the opposite way." 
Equine Back Research


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"Trooper looks like a hollowed out horse to me. Head in the air with lack of rounding in the back."

Head up does NOT mean a hollow back, and in fact, horses do NOT round their backs. Both are common misconceptions that have nothing to do with reality. Trooper's head is higher and back because that makes it easier to have his center of gravity toward the rear. The whole "round back" nonsense came from a lack of understanding on horse a horse moves and what the back does.

"Honestly, I'd be concerned if there WASN'T some sort of degree of head motion with a lope."

Of course the head moves some, mostly in a forward and back motion. When the head goes dramatically up and down, that is a bad thing. As Tom Chown put it in the link posted by Jaydee (#84):"_“There are two reasons a horse bobs his head,” Chown states. “He’s either lame or he is laboring, or struggling to move forward and maintain his balance. His head and neck are his balance! I don’t care what event it is. When his head and neck are moving up and down, he is not balanced at all and appears to be lame. So, is he in fact lame, or is this what we have all agreed to accept as a true lope?” Chown says. “Absolutely not. As owners and trainers, we all know to look for lameness when we see a horse move, even at the jog or trot, with his head bobbing up and down, or excessive movement. Why then do we reward this same presentation in the show ring at the lope? This is wrong._”​"Maybe you should actually pay attention to the video. / She did a *flying lead change* at that precise moment."

I was not referring to an exact second. Look at what is going on in that time frame...2:50-3:00. Yes, there are lead changes, but the rest is not pretty either.

"As I already stated, I do agree that he's a bit heavier on the front end than I would like to see. BUT for some horses, that is their build and it may always be a trouble spot for them."

True. But it is a FAULT. I'm starting to like Bandit, but he is built too narrow. Nice horse. Has some very good characteristics. I'm told he is exceptionally fast over runs of 4-10 miles, by someone who raced him. But he is too narrow to be a well built horse. He deserves to be a gelding.

It doesn't mean he cannot be ridden, but it is not desirable. It causes him problems sometimes, and nothing I do will ever correct those problems.

Mia had too long a leg for her length, IMHO. Liked her, but it caused her problems in moving sometimes. 

I will post a thread either later today (or more likely, within the next couple of days) discussing the mechanics of a horse's movement. Yes, it will be my opinion, but my mechanics are better than my riding skill. When I do, Jean Luc Cornille is one of the people I'll cite. Good reading at his website:

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/documents/false_practices_2.html


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I am with you, bsms....I do not understand why those riders look like the horse is LESS than pleasurable to ride! Riding that four beat lope always looks like riding a cross cantering horse...it is the SUSPENSION that makes a lope smooth....those horses never lift their feet, much less their entire body in suspension!


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## updownrider (Mar 31, 2009)

bsms said:


> Head up does NOT mean a hollow back, and in fact, horses do NOT round their backs. Both are common misconceptions that have nothing to do with reality. Trooper's head is higher and back because that makes it easier to have his center of gravity toward the rear. The whole "round back" nonsense came from a lack of understanding on horse a horse moves and what the back does.
> 
> "Honestly, I'd be concerned if there WASN'T some sort of degree of head motion with a lope."
> 
> ...




From the same article you posted above as proof that a horse's head should not move in the canter, Chown discusses a rounded back. 

"Chown explains that the topline of the horse should always be parallel with the rail. In order to maintain that parallel topline, and show the roundness in his back, the horse has to be able to lift his ribs and back, his “core”, and use his legs like a pendulum. If the horse does not lift his “core” and instead hollows out his back, then the result is a discombobulated gait with the horse struggling to compensate for the lack of lift and the front end moving separately from the back end. When a horse correctly lifts his “core,” and uses his body like it’s designed to be used, the result is a smoother, free-flowing stride that is pretty to watch and shows the beauty of the animal".​


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

A horse does not move it head up and down at a canter. The head raises slightly as the leading leg comes forward and the shoulders lift but the rider is also lifted at that point so the hands do not have to move, certainly do not describe a circle. 

_Any hand movement should come from the elbows being opened and closed, not from the hands moving. _


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

whent to a lameness seminare and the vets had some interesting information. when a horse limps it throws its head up if its lame on the front. do you know why? Because when their head is up they are shifting their weight to their back end. that's why dressage horses are so light on their front end when their necks are rounded as their center or gravity is being pushed further back. now if a horse has rear end lameness they drop their heard forward and down alot more to bring more weight to their front.

My point is that is incredibly hard if not impossible for a horse to engage his hind end when most of his body weight is shifted so far forward. and he certainly can be "in balance" when he is putting so much weight on his front end. the horses gottotrot posted are good examples. these are horses are either in balance or using their back ends, hence why their heads are up.

















another thing a lot of people forget. a horse puts 65% of their body weight on their front end and can change that from shifting their neck up or down. So how much weight are the front legs now in charge of supporting? more then they are meant to for prolonged periods of time i can bet. now dont get me wrong, stretching that far down while moving is a good way to stretch their backs. my arabian mare likes to do that every now and that at the trot when she is stretching though she is more peanut rolling. but she will not do it for more than 5 strides, not the entire time out at all 3 gaits.

so the argument on these horses being in balance is not correct. just because it moves in rhythm and dose not fall over dose not meane balance. heck cutters are not in balance but they manage to not fall over or lose their riders. heck my mare used to run with her nose straight up in the air. she was not in balance but she could change leads and run without killing us. did not help her hind end at all and taught her that reaching down is a better alternative that up so head she could knock my teeth out. she started carrying her head more level or slightly above the withers nice and relaxed once she realized it was more comfortable for her. took one day of lateral flexion for her to learn that.

in the pics of negra you can see where her relaxed "balanced" head set is. event an arabian can tell where her head needs to be to be in balance.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

KigerQueen said:


> whent to a lameness seminare and the vets had some interesting information. when a horse limps it throws its head up if its lame on the front.
> 
> now if a horse has rear end lameness they drop their heard forward and down alot more to bring more weight to their front.


At what GAIT are you referring this to?

Lameness is normally best evaluated at a trot, which is why lameness experts conduct most of their lameness tests while watching the horse trot. While at the trot, you will usually not be able to tell if the head bob is accounting for a front leg or for a back leg. "Down is sound" is what I've always been taught. (Down seems to be easier to see than up when watching a head bob, at least for me.) So if the horse's head is down when the right front and left hind contact the ground, you know you're looking (most likely) for a problem either with the left front or the right hind. 

You'll then have to do further lameness testing (flexions, blocking, etc) to figure out which end it is (front or back) and/or if you have more than one limb involved making things more complicated.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

this can bee seen at the walk, trot or even lope depending on the level of lameness (talking to someone with a chronically lame horse. on a bad day you can see it at a walk. everyday at the trot and some days at the lope). i asked one of the top lameness vets that flew from out of state this question and dissected it. it became more of a conversation.

When the horse has lameness lets say in his front right he will bring his head up while the front right ins on the ground, shifting weight onto his back end. what come up must come down so he bobs his head down (where people notice the head bob) as he lands on his front left. if he is off on his right hind he will bring his head down and lower than he would for a front leg lameness as the back right lands. and bring his head back up to neutral as the back left lands.

We are not talking the full lameness exam. trust me i know what that all entails but the vet has to know what leg it is right? they need to be able to see what leg is hurting. if you want to pay for nerve blocking all 4 feet you are welcome too but its not necessary. what i am describing is how the horse dispribules weight (and normally they do this most noticeable with lameness). This is also step 1 of the lameness exam. you dont rush in doing nerve blocks before you establish what leg. yes there are flection tests but the vet needs to see the degree of lameness before hand. otherwise they could flex a severely almost 3 legged lame horse with a torn tendon and cause MORE damage. 

Yes he did say down is sound as well. but the main difference between head movement for front and back they (all 5 vets there agreed) that with hind end lameness the horses head goes from neutral to down. while front end the horses head first goes up then down.

also sorry i cant spell. i did not learn to read till i was 14 and i am severely dyslexic. so pardon me when auto correct dose not give me the right word.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

please keep in mind when judgeing a horse's balance, that things will look different when 200lbs or so is plopped on top of them (rider and western saddle +/-) 
when you add weight, and it's not exactly over the center of gravity, it will affect how the horse holds its' head and how it moves.

so, making judgements based solely on riderless photos is a bit inaccurate for this discussion.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

And, the beat goes on, fueled by people that have never ridden a good western pl horse, trained one, or even taken one judging clinic.
Looking, freeze framing, a moment in time, trying to find the worst, versus trying to become educated and learning the difference, actually able to judge that, would be much more positive
I have posted the subject on western pleasure bashing, to other horse people, not here, just horse people. Some are involved in the pleasure horse industry, others are not-they are just horsemen
Their answer-they have learned to stay out of these debates on western pleasure, as those knocking western pl, don't really want answers, become more knowledgeable-they just want to bash it.
Because everyone thinks western pl is easy, unlike reining, working cowhorse, and they ride their horses at walk jog and lope, they feel qualified to judge western pl, as opposed to reining ect
I have no idea as to where BSMS got that 'picture in time, if it is the horse I posted, if it is from when he was just two, or if it is another horse.Really does not matter, because in a rail class, you can catch any horse at a bad moment, or any horse in any event, if you start googling vidoes and freezing moments in time
Subjective judging is just that. You don't kill a horse, if he gets his head, such that the tip of the ears, are below the withers for a few strides, and place a horse that is inconsistent, a poor mover, ahead of that horse, just because of level of head carriage
In fact, rules state, 'five consecutive strides', with head too low being a disqualification
I promised myself, that I would not post bad moments in time, from other disciplines, but I darn sure could show horses behind the vertical, mouth cranked shut with nose bands,, horses being jerked around obstacles, severe bit,, (gags, bicycle chains, ect. Trail horses with some idiots riding with tie downs and two hands on along shanked curb, reiners four beating in the small circle, ect. Shall I go on?
This free for all, esp from people that don't even get basics on their horse, have never ridden a horse on a totally loose rein, have never even ridden a pleasure horse, feeling that smooth movement-movement that allowed me, even with very bad knees to continue to ride a pleasure horse on trail rides, while others riding regular non gaited horses had to switch to gaited horses, as they aged, or quit riding
I will not reply by posting pictures of other disciplines, or videos, such as those of Rolkur or that blue tongue again, as that puts me in the same classification of the many here, and a place I do not wish to go to again!
BSMS, my husband neck reins a horse to your extent, but even he realizes that his horse is not a true bridle horse, working 100% off of that indirect rein
You have ridden two horses, I believe both were started before you ever got them. You only trail ride, which is fine, but I hardly consider you qualified to judge, and reading some classical books does not do the job!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

greentree said:


> I am with you, bsms....I do not understand why those riders look like the horse is LESS than pleasurable to ride! Riding that four beat lope always looks like riding a cross cantering horse...it is the SUSPENSION that makes a lope smooth....those horses never lift their feet, much less their entire body in suspension!


Do you actually know what a four beat lope is?????
A four beat lope is NOT what a correctly trained western pl horse performs
It is amazing, truly, that people here, judging whether a horse four beats, could most times not even tell you the correct sequence of a three beat lope, nor how those beats are counted. To them, every horse able to lope slow and true, is four beating, and THAT is a a major bashing out of ignorance!!!!!!!
I have been advised not to bother responding to these posts, form people with either just a recreational riding background, an English background or a cowboy one, but I keep being drawn in, in defense of both the great horses I own and ride, and in defence of the great pleasure horses out there, being bashed out of ignorance.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

beau159 said:


> Looking at the picture you posted, Trooper looks like a hollowed out horse to me. Head in the air with lack of rounding in the back.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you Beau, from for an educated comment. You know we are not in the same disciplines, but I am sure, like me, your recognize by posts, those that truly are horse people , understanding movement an dhow to judge it. I know your barrel horses are broke, as I have read your training inputs, and thus respect your comments
BSMS-yours I truly don't respect, and I am not being snide, but every time you type, your level of horse knowledge and training comes shining through!


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Once again I need something more than a 'like' option for Smilies post. (s)


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Tom chown is when-from ancient history?
No, Arabian , and Morgan western pl don';t have the same rules, and why behind the vertical is forgiven there, and also more contact (not bashing, just different.)
Only time other breeds, besides stock horses would be judged under the same rules, is if they showed open, at NSBA events
Hey, here is a great idea, how about actually going to the NSBA site?

might actually find out about rules, find other horses to judge better then the judges, or gasp, even learn something
Totally agree with dreamcatcher, I can move my horses on to English, and that is way, way , way easier then getting a horse shown correctly in western pl
Yes, you ask horse to shorten stride in western pleasure, going English to western, and to lengthen it, going English. Does not mean hocks aren't engaged, How else would you get a horse to slow, if not to ask that horse to drive deeper having shoulders NOT head up. Even an extended jog is not a trot
Come on BSMS, change leads, without speed, and tell me how that works, if a horse is not collected. I can dam well tell you that it is impossible
A horse that decides to bolt, caN CHANGE DIRECTIONS VERY QUICKLY, as I;m sure you have found out with Mia. I am quite sure that Mia was not collected 

before that change of direction. Give me a break!


http://www.nsba.com/

I had hoped this thread had died, and I could continue to just ignore it, but since it just seems to have a life of it;s own, got drawn back into the 'dark side' I just have never learned to chose the easy way out, and have to speak up for something I believe in. Have not read all the comments, and a few were very well balanced, showing open minds and knowledge. Unfortunately, many were just free for all feeds, by people with basic riding problems


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I am sure I qualify in Smilie's mind as one of those folks who can barely get the basics out of their horse, yet are casting judgement on the WP discipline. I am the first to admit I cannot ride like she can, nor do I have anywhere near the experience she does, nor the opportunities to learn more and ride regularly.

however, anyone who rides horses can see that most of the videos posted, and the ones that were the subject of complaints, show a horse moving painfully unnaturally. Even the best example of the lovely stallion that Smilie posted had moments when his movement looked odd. if folks from all kinds of horse backgrounds see that, can we all be wrong? Is it possible that people who ride that way, and want to see it continued, are in self-denial?


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Sorry Smilie but Tom Chown is still very much alive and well and heavily involved in the world of AQHA
Tom Chown – Horse Site
If by antiquated you mean that he was around in the days before WP evolved into the train wreck we're seeing today then I would see that well qualifies him to make the comments on it that he did
Out of curiosity - when were you last competing yourself in WP because the grey horse you showed looked more like the horses used to when the sport first began then they do now?
I agree with Tinyliny - people who look at these sorry excuses for western horses must be in denial because its definitely not just inexperienced horse people that think they look 'wrong'


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

I don't get it. I don't get what you are defending, Smilie. As jaydee wrote, the pictures of your horses, that you posted, look like wonderful Western Pleasure horses, a pleasure to ride. The videos and pictures that were being questioned were a far cry from that. I haven't read where anyone was bashing Western Pleasure all the way around, but there IS criticism of what is winning at top levels at some breed shows, particularly AQHA.

I am also in the "not qualified to judge" category which is why I was trying to learn something from these two threads. All I have learned is that there is no really explainable reason why a horse should be made to move ultra slowly with its head down to its ankles at all gaits except that it is extremely smooth to ride, great if you have all the time in the world to get from A to B and difficult for the horse to execute (showing a high level of training).

It is my error thinking that today's WP show horse should be ridden the same way outside the ring. If the extremeness demonstrates the ability of a horse to lower its head to its ankles and go as slow as possible and still be moving then I guess I DO get it. Just not my idea of a pleasurable ride.

Smilie, your horses are beautiful, you do not need to defend them. They are not demonstrating in the pictures what was in question here.


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Foxhunter said:


> A horse does not move it head up and down at a canter. *The head raises slightly* as the leading leg comes forward and the shoulders lift but the rider is also lifted at that point so the hands do not have to move, certainly do not describe a circle.
> 
> _Any hand movement should come from the elbows being opened and closed, not from the hands moving. _


Your choice of words is better than mine. 

I typed "hands" for the rein movement but of course it is more in-depth than that. 

But there _IS_ a component of vertical motion that the horse's head undergoes during a canter, as you said yourself (part I bolded).


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Whinnie said:


> I don't get it. I don't get what you are defending, Smilie. As jaydee wrote, the pictures of your horses, that you posted, look like wonderful Western Pleasure horses, a pleasure to ride. The videos and pictures that were being questioned were a far cry from that...
> 
> Smilie, your horses are beautiful, you do not need to defend them. They are not demonstrating in the pictures what was in question here.


Agree. If I ride dressage and post beautiful pictures of my horses in self collection and say that I train without rollkur and take years developing the horses' bodies correctly, do I need to defend ALL dressage and worry about people who slam dressage because of rollkur and other terrible practices? Can I still believe that many at the highest levels are doing things that are inhumane to horses? I believe so.

If I barrel race and my horses are never injured and run their patterns without me holding a death grip on a huge, shanked bit and with me riding balanced in the saddle instead of "starfishing," do I need to defend the riders who are scarring their horses sides with spurs while the horse nearly flips over backward in the chute? Should I say barrel racing is always wonderful because I do it with good horsemanship and my horses are sane and can go out on trails and ride relaxed? 
I don't think so.

If people tell me they are worried about how the horses are moving or if unethical practices are used to train the horses in a discipline I know a lot about, I hope I can tell them about good examples and bad examples. I'd like to give them articles to read that explain why I believe something is acceptable to do with horses, and invite their criticism to help me think through if I'm missing something vital. 

For instance, let's say you are worried about how my endurance horse is moving. Perhaps you feel it's not good to continue with the head raised above the withers. Maybe I can show you photos of horses that moved in a similar way throughout their career and retired sound while living healthy until age 30. Maybe I can show you photos of my horse's well developed neck and back muscles and show you some articles that explain how this movement is biomechanically sound. 

Hopefully I can also show you articles about how sustaining a huge trot can be bad for certain horses and how to assess whether some horses are actually more efficient doing a canter over distance. 
Does that mean I need to defend people who ride until a horse breaks down and then discard them if they don't hold up? I can tell you about people who knew their horse was lame but still trailered them to a ride and hid the lameness as long as they could. I can tell you about people who do very little training before a ride because the horse has successfully competed in the past and they believe the horse will be fine because he has mental toughness. 

Go ahead, slam any discipline but any logical person sincerely looking for truth will not throw out something entirely based on some bad practices. Yet I feel it is very important as horsemen that we do point out things that are bad for horses. At the very least it may help keep some people from participating in the bad practices, if they are the type to go along with things just because others are doing it. At best, discussion can create pressure which can help trends swing back into a better direction. I think with WP it's already heading that way. If everyone accepted whatever was going on, that would never happen.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Bumping up to by pass spam


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## Whinnie (Aug 9, 2015)

Well said, gottatrot!


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