# Horse pulls away while on the lunge line?



## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

He shouldn't be able to do that. Obviously you can't physically stop him but the way you stand and your body language should be a mental block if not a physical one.

As far as why? Hard to say without seeing but he's clearly not being reprimanded. You let him do him, then let him go back to trotting.

This might be a situation to "chase" him a little and only let him stop on YOUR terms.

Make sure you are parallel to his rib cage, in this situation even a little behind facing forward may be appropriate (not dramatically, but just so you are "pushing" him forward).

Do you have a whip? Don't let him turn.


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

I've tried holding onto the lunge line and not letting him pull away, but I usually end up letting go (not on purpose). 
I watched a video where the horse did the same thing, and the guy let the horse go when he pulled, but brought him back and made him work. I tried using that method, but without success. It just taught him that pulling away will end up in a release. 
That's what I read in an article. To just "chase" him when he decides to pull away, and stop chasing him once he stops and moves forward? 
I've been positioning my body like that when I lunge so he knows to go forward. And yes, I have a whip.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I didn't realize he was pulling away from you completely. Wear gloves. Brace and be ready for it. The most important part is to stop the spin. If you are ready and do it properly you CAN stop him. I know it's easier said than done sometimes!

You lunge in a fenced area I assume. Get in the corner, ask him in the corner, the fence will help you keep him from spinning.

I don't care so much if he bolts IF it's on the circle and in the same direction. Ultimately he's still doing what you want that way. At this point it's just a game. "Nah I don't wanna today."

Make sure if he bolts you try to keep his head pulled to the inside and keep him moving if he tries to stop (if he's going forward he can't go in another direction), you may need to cement yourself for a couple circles but he will get the point pretty quickly. If he gets his head away from you and his shoulders lined up he WILL get away as you've learned, so keep that head. Forward will also keep him bent so he can't line up. IF you need to stop him reel him in.

Think about it. He doesn't want to do something, he gets away and does what he wants... so you put him back on the lunge and go back to doing what you were doing before...Why wouldn't he do that?

I'd be curious for a video. What is your lunge setup?

Make sure it's a good time to ask for a canter as well. I am retraining my mare and she bolts at the canter. While it's gotten better I couldn't figure out WHY she was randomly bolting. My recent theory is that she is unbalanced and worried either while cantering or when thinking of cantering.. I started giving her a larger circle and not pulling on her when she bolts (the opposite of what I would think) and she several times relaxed and slowed down and balanced herself nicely. If a horse isn't balanced they will rush. Also could be concerned about pain.. is he OK under saddle?

Keep in mind WHY he may not want to canter and do what you can to ease that, but at the same time what he is doing needs to stop.

I wouldn't actually suggest it but I may almost be tempted to chase him (in "crazy lady mode") after he got loose. Don't try that though lol.

As far as letting go... don't let go unless you MUST! (and then let go immediately! lol) If you can keep him bent on the circle you have control even if it doesn't seem it. That is the starting point. Same direction on the circle!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Here's an interesting recent thread:
http://www.horseforum.com/horse-training/video-spoiled-pony-653065/

Not quite the same issue but you may get some good pointers. There is a part two of this as well.


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

Thank you! I'll wear gloves today when I work him. Would it be better to do it in a round pen with him on the lunge line so he can't turn away? 

I usually lunge him in our fenced corral which doesn't have many corners (it's a very odd shape), and probably isn't the best place to lunge him in, but our arena isn't fenced so it's all I've got to work with at the moment lol 

I will get a video this week or the next if it's not too muddy.

Yes, he's good under saddle. He's great when he's in the round pen off the lead. 

So what do I do with him if I HAVE to let him go instead of bringing him back? 

Thanks so much for your help!


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

Also, the girl who trained him for the Mustang Makeover told me to one-leg hobble him? I'm not sure if that's the safest way to do it, but that's what she suggested.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

If you feel you need a round pen use a round pen. Do what YOU need to do to be able to have control. 

The goal is to not let go (helpful I know) if you must I would catch him and go immediately back to canter and try to be better prepared the next time. Don't trot. Don't play around just "ok we ARE doing this". Rinse and repeat. When he does what you want I would stop immediately give him lots of praise and put him away. 

I must be misunderstanding something. How is tying up a leg supposed to help him canter????? 0.0

Regardless of the technique you should feel confident and safe doing it. If you don't don't do it. It's your horse and your decision and to do a technique you aren't comfortable with let alone one very "iffy" even in knowledgeable hands is a disaster waiting to happen. I am shocked she would have suggested that. Somethings you really need to have experience with, not just go out and fool around with one day. Go wth your gut.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

tikimurrayreg said:


> Hello,
> I'm having a problem with my mustang while lunging him on a lunge line. He'll be going around just fine at a walk or trot, but if I ask for a lope, he'll turn around and take off the other direction. Say he's going to the left and I ask him to lope, he'll spin to the right and take off. I'll let him go and bring him back and make him trot circles, making him stop and change direction often so he's paying attention to me. But once I ask for the lope, he'll take off again.
> Does anyone know why he does this, and how I can fix this behavior?



first of all, does this only happen when you ask for the lope? and, do you ask for it from a trot, or a walk, or?

and, does he do it each direction? and, how are you asking for the lope? are you raising your hands a lot, such that he may interpret this as "run away!" , such as you might shoo a horse off from something?

always question your own body language when there are lunging issues.

also, consider how well does he come off of the pressure on the lead rope if he has it suddenly tighten, such as in cases like him spooking when tied up, or him stepping on his own leadline when grazing with the lead on the ground, or you leading him, and him trying to go one way all of a sudden and you saying NO!.

how well a horse respects the pressure on his head of the halter/lead , and how well he learns to release this by coming off of it rather than leaning harder into it (panicking and running off, for example), and how well he learns to FOLLOW that presssure, is really fundamental to almost any other ground handling activity, and certainly to lunging.

If he respects it well, the instant that he started to turn, you could apply a quick, sharp yank the other direction and he'd follow that pressure. 

the other suggestion I'd make is that you start getting him to lope by sort of rolling him into it. rather than asking him with a very strong cue, you just keep adding more and more energy into his trotting , until he has not choice but to sort of "roll" into the canter. when he does, you stop the pressure entirely, let him coast along for as long as he likes at the canter, let him drift to a stop and let him rest. verbally praise a bit and let him soak on that for a bit just standing out there away from you, resting. dont' get all fussy and mushy all over his face. let him soak on the experience and then start out with the trot again and roll into that canter.


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

Yogiwick said:


> If you feel you need a round pen use a round pen. Do what YOU need to do to be able to have control.
> 
> The goal is to not let go (helpful I know) if you must I would catch him and go immediately back to canter and try to be better prepared the next time. Don't trot. Don't play around just "ok we ARE doing this". Rinse and repeat. When he does what you want I would stop immediately give him lots of praise and put him away.
> 
> ...



Okay, will do. Thank you so much for all your help! 

That's exactly what I was thinking! She said that it would make him work harder since he would only have three legs to work with. But I don't feel comfortable with tying up a leg of his, seems like it would make him more fearful than anything. Not really addressing the issue.


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

tinyliny said:


> first of all, does this only happen when you ask for the lope? and, do you ask for it from a trot, or a walk, or?
> 
> and, does he do it each direction? and, how are you asking for the lope? are you raising your hands a lot, such that he may interpret this as "run away!" , such as you might shoo a horse off from something?
> 
> ...



Yes, he only does it at the lope, his walk and trot are both fine. 

He most often does it going to the left, since that's usually the direction I end up on when I'm ready to ask him to lope. But he does it to the right, as well. 
I ask for the lope by pointing and kissing, and is he doesn't respond to that, I'll kiss then swing my rope. But I rarely have to go with the second option since he's very responsive.

I was taught to stand with my chest lined up to the middle of his barrel. 

He's always very, very calm about that kind of situation. He doesn't react too strongly when he steps on his lead rope, and he'll get his lead rope wrapped over his head while tied up and just figure his way out of it like it's no big deal. He's never pulled back while tied. 

So what are some things I can do with him to get him to follow the pressure instead of leaning on it? 

Ahhh, that's where I went wrong! I usually keep as much constant pressure as I can, instead of just a sharp yank so he can't lean on that pressure and drag me. That would make a whole lot more sense. 

Okay, I'll definitely try that!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

The snap or bump of the line is done to sharply get his attention, to say "No," when he tries to turn, and then some more steady pressure tells him to go whatever direction you ask


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

Are you lunging in the rope halter? Try clipping the line to the side of the halter so that he is not able to get a direct pull, you will still have side leverage. Clip it around the cheek piece and the nose, at that knot. Or use a snaffle and clip it to one ring. Either way you will have to change it when you change directions.

Good luck!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tikimurrayreg said:


> Hello,
> I'm having a problem with my mustang while lunging him on a lunge line. He'll be going around just fine at a walk or trot, but if I ask for a lope, he'll turn around and take off the other direction. Say he's going to the left and I ask him to lope, he'll spin to the right and take off. I'll let him go and bring him back and make him trot circles, making him stop and change direction often so he's paying attention to me. But once I ask for the lope, he'll take off again.
> Does anyone know why he does this, and how I can fix this behavior?


he does it, because he has learned that he can pull away, esp at speed
Just bringing him back, making him work at the slower gaits, won`t fix your problem.
Because he has learned his own strength, knows you can`t hold him, when he pulls away, you now have to use whatever it takes, so he is not successful, and that means some advantage, as you are not going to out pull a 1000 pound animal!
You can either go back, and build more basic respect for giving to pressure, and not lunge him for now, OR you have to use equipment that will help you make any pulling away unsucessful.
I like using a stud shank run under the chin, giving a horse a reprimand if he tries to pull, and with that chain giving instant release, when he gives and lunges on a loose line
Big ditto on the point of never allowing a horse to pull on the lunge line, even if he doe snot pull away, as it teaches bad mechanics
When ahorse pulls at the canter or lope, and you pull against him, it will cause that inside shoulder to drop, and hip to pop out of lead. Horses then learn to cross fire while lunged, not to mention, to move into pressure, instead of yiedling


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

That's one of the reasons I don't ask for the canter/lope on the lunge. It's not really necessary. Often by the time we've gone thro walk and trot, the horse is sick of going in circles and is more likely to cut up.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

tikimurrayreg said:


> Okay, will do. Thank you so much for all your help!
> 
> That's exactly what I was thinking! She said that it would make him work harder since he would only have three legs to work with. But I don't feel comfortable with tying up a leg of his, seems like it would make him more fearful than anything. Not really addressing the issue.


Not to mention the dangers of you who are not experienced with that just trying it one day and the fact that a horse really can't even canter on 3 legs.. I wouldn't see it accomplishing anything at all even if you were able to do it. The problems not the level of work!

YES on the "tug" you will never be able to out pull him and he will just lean and drag.

Saddlebag- I'm not sure how that's relevant. Don't do it in case you have an issue? Funny how it seems to work just fine for most people.


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

I'd use the round pen to get him to lope and become balanced better on a circle. That way when he spins you chase that **** and do direction changed out the wazoo. Then stop and let him think about it for awhile. Repeat repeat repeat. Make sure you reprimand when he spins. If I can I'll get a video tomorrow of what I mean to make things clear!


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

greentree said:


> Are you lunging in the rope halter? Try clipping the line to the side of the halter so that he is not able to get a direct pull, you will still have side leverage. Clip it around the cheek piece and the nose, at that knot. Or use a snaffle and clip it to one ring. Either way you will have to change it when you change directions.
> 
> Good luck!


Yes, I always use a rope halter since he can't lean on it like a nylon halter. That's a good idea! Didn't think of that. Thanks!


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

WhattaTroublemaker said:


> I'd use the round pen to get him to lope and become balanced better on a circle. That way when he spins you chase that **** and do direction changed out the wazoo. Then stop and let him think about it for awhile. Repeat repeat repeat. Make sure you reprimand when he spins. If I can I'll get a video tomorrow of what I mean to make things clear!


 That's what I was thinking. Then he doesn't have the chance to turn an run, he has to stay with me on the circle. Will do! Thanks!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Not sure if the rope halter will prevent him from leaning, but you can do that technique with anything.

Just wanted to mention with the whole set up.. it sounds like you do the "triangle" (being parallel to him and all) which is GREAT and the right way to do it!! Doesn't mean it's appropriate to every situation though, when you know he's about to spin I would get behind him, just a little, maybe even with his bum just "behind" center, and face towards his head, again just a little. Just to emphasis that YOU are driving HIM. If you are setup properly he will be much less likely to spin as he will be (in effect) spinning "towards" you. And you don't want to spin towards the angry mom with the whip! lol. You will also already be in a good position to give him that tug if need be.


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

Saddlebag said:


> That's one of the reasons I don't ask for the canter/lope on the lunge. It's not really necessary. Often by the time we've gone thro walk and trot, the horse is sick of going in circles and is more likely to cut up.


I ask my other horse to lope on the lunge line all the time, of course changing directions often because I'm not lunging to make him tired, I'm lunging to get him focused and paying attention to me. I don't make them go around in monotonous circles, I change up their speed and direction and I'd like for him to be comfortable when loping so that I can have that extra variation when lunging.


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

Smilie said:


> he does it, because he has learned that he can pull away, esp at speed
> Just bringing him back, making him work at the slower gaits, won`t fix your problem.
> Because he has learned his own strength, knows you can`t hold him, when he pulls away, you now have to use whatever it takes, so he is not successful, and that means some advantage, as you are not going to out pull a 1000 pound animal!
> You can either go back, and build more basic respect for giving to pressure, and not lunge him for now, OR you have to use equipment that will help you make any pulling away unsucessful.
> ...


That makes more sense. I only did that because I'd watched a video where the trainer had a horse with the same issue, and that seemed to fix it. I was skeptical, but I tried it and it didn't fix it, only made things worse. 

Okay, that might work. He's a really sensitive horse, but he's starting to take advantage of the fact that he's stronger than me so I think a stud chain will put him in check. Gotcha. 

Thanks!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm sure this goes without saying but if you use the stud chain as Smilie suggested use a nylon halter not the rope.

I'm not sure on the application here, if he get away he's running with the chain on and if he doesn't but is all twisted the chain is ineffective. To nip it in the bud sure but that is a matter of timing.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I will use both free lunging in a round pen, when a starting a horse under saddle, short term, and also teach young horses that I'm going to show, to lunge , using a lunge line.
Yes, I do expect my horses to learn to lunge at all gaits, at the speed I ask for, and on a loose line
However, ask yourself if your horse is ready to be lunged, and why you wish to do it.
It serves no purpose, if it is just used for a horse to do whatever he wishes, and then in fact, becomes negative training, teaching a horse that he can pull away
A horse might catch me unaware, and succeed in pulling away. If he does so again, shame on me!
Turn out is play time. Lunging should be work, with the horse being just as under control as when ridden. If you allow a horse to act up while lunged, why would you expect that horse to be different, while ridden?
Are you going to allow a horse to bolt, or decide never to ask him to canter or lope, as he might buck or bolt, or are you going to handle and train that horse in such a manner that he is respectful, whether lunged or ridden?
A horse that pulls away when lunged, waiting for that opportunity when asked to go at a lope, has to be shut down now!
Just like tying solid or ground tying, free lunging and having a horse lunge correctly on a lunge line, are not interchangeable skills, but two different skills, each with it's own use
If you take a young horse to a show, and then lunge him before the show starts, as he was stalled all night, you must have that horse under control, at all gaits and regardless of what is going on around him. That arena will often have several horses being lunged at the same time, plus horses being ridden on the rail.
DO NOT LET A HORSE PULL WHile being lunged. Simple as that. More than one way of doing so, I just mentioned my preference.
I lunge a broke horse off of the inside ring of a snaffle, with that horse bitted up


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> I'm sure this goes without saying but if you use the stud chain as Smilie suggested use a nylon halter not the rope.
> 
> I'm not sure on the application here, if he get away he's running with the chain on and if he doesn't but is all twisted the chain is ineffective. To nip it in the bud sure but that is a matter of timing.


Yes, a web halter, with good hardware. I have no use for a rope halter
A horse doe snot get away with that chain run under the chin, snapped to the top ring on the off side.
Of course, you teach that horse how to respond tot hat chain, while led, before ever lunging him that way.
That stud chain is long enough, so that it has no effect, unless the horse pulls, and it also releases instantly when the horse gives.
There is no way it will get twisted, ect.
You have two choices with horses.
Train them in such away that they never learn to halter pull, pull on the lunge line, run through a bit, ect, ect, through correct training that produces a psychological mindset in the horse that he is controlled by that simple lead shank, ect, or, you have holes in training, that allows a horse to call your 'bluff', learn he can indeed break free when tied, pulla way when led or lunged, bolt when ridden.
When you reach this point, you have no choice but to use what it takes, to make the horse never successful again, and that dose not mean afraid to set him up to try, by not asking him to tie, lope when lunged , etc, but by using what it takes to not have him win.

PS, you will need to change attachment of that stud shank with direction change, but once he learns not to pull, you can go back to lunging as before


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Training a horse to lunge is more than clipping a line to a halter and driving the horse in circles. When lunging is used property it teaches the horse to yield to the bit, to balance and to track up. It can be part of the breaking to ride process but due to the horse's age at breaking is less useful for that as it does stress a horse's joints to be working in a 30 foot (European) or 24 foot circle (I prefer a European metric lunge line). So.. when breaking a young horse I never lunged the horse (I did LONGE line them.. over hill and dale!). I broke my horses at 2-2.5 years, put them up and brought them back out at 3-3.5 and put them to work. 

The first issue is that your are training this horse in a halter. A snaffle bridle with the line (NO CHAIN) hooked in the bit ring on the outside of the circle, over the poll and through the inside bit ring then to you is the correct way to set up a lunge line if you do not have a proper lunging cavesson. 

Second, the horse should be saddled or have a surcingle with rings on it. The horse should have side reins that are solid (not elastic) or with a rubber donut that limits stretch. Reins should be the same length and, for a beginner horse, adjusted with a little slack in them when the horse is standing relaxed. the reins should be attached where the top of the stirrup leather attaches to the saddle, not to the martingale rings or the horn! 

The lunge whip needs to be long enough to reach the horse if needed to drive him forward. The lunge whip handler needs to practice with that whip without the horse so they understand how to crack it and how to handle it so it will be effective. 

The basics of lunging are you are driving the horse with one line in a circle with the handler at the apex of a triangle with his hand forming a straight line to the bit and the whip hand point to the horse's hip. The horse forms the bottom of the triangle. If the horse lags, you step behind and into the horse and tap with the whip... if the horse goes too fast, you step back and get forward and drop the tip of the whip to just barely off the ground. It is hard to describe this in print.. much easier to show in person!

When you change direction, you must stop the horse and change the line/bit set up (this is why people have lunging cavessons.. with a ring on top in the center of the nose.. no need to stop and redo the line over the poll!). 

If your horse decides to get naughty and run out, you have the bit, you have the line, you have the whip and you can be as harsh as you need to be to let him know that is simple NOT ACCEPTABLE and will NOT be allowed. One time or two should get his mind on the JOB. I had one who did this when I was a beginner and thought a halter was 'good enough' and did not understand I was _training_ the horse.. not just making him run in endless mindless circles.. the correct set up and a few corrections fixed that. By letting your horse go when he does this you are inadvertently rewarding him. He won't relate the transgression with going back to work at the slower pace. 

As your horse becomes more proficient at lunging, your job is to drive him up into the bit from behind and get him to track his hind foot in the same track as his front foot.. neither tracking to the inside or swinging out to the outside. You do a LOT of trotting before ever getting to the lope. You also begin to shorten the side reins so that he learns to yield to the pressure of the bit while bringing those hind legs under himself. 

10 circles in each direction at the trot 3 or 4 times a weeks is all you want.. and you can add 5 circles of walk in each direction as well. That is where you start. 

When you get all that at the trot, then you loosen the reins a bit and go for the canter or lope.. and again, the object is to get even speed, focus on bringing the hind quarters under and tracking up while yielding to the bit. Due to stress on joints, 10 in each direction at the trot.. 5-8 each direction at the lope.. and 5 each direction at the walk and you are all done. When the horse is truly proficient, you can break this up so you are working on transitions up and down between gaits. 

See how much you can TEACH your horse using a lunge line? This is hot you keep the horse engaged, paying attention and working.. not tuning you out! 

If all you are doing is using lunging as a form of exercise or to burn off your horse's edge, you are doing it wrong..............


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Although I rode all the naughty horses and ponies at the riding school I had never done a lot of longeing. The only time was when teaching a rider. Horses in for breaking were started by the Chiel Instructor. 

When I went to work away from home, it was for the same instructor. We had a big 4 y.o. Come in as an emergency livery as the owner had been found in the arena where she had been working him, with her head smashed open.

We didn't have an arena so I lunged him in the field. He was fine for a few circuits and then turned towards me and came at me on his back legs.

My forst thought was "This is how she got her head smashed in." Then "What would Margaret do about it?" 

I knew she wouldn't take any nonsense so I jumped to the side and laid the whip across his belly. This certainly gave him food for thought and he came down and took off. No way could I hold him so he was loose in the field. No matter what I did I couldn't hold him. I didn't use a chain but even on the bit he was gone. 

I called the owners husband and told him what had happened (he just wanted the horse sold) the horse was insured.

I borrowed a long length of nylon rope from some people across the road. I had a strong halter (this was before nylon ones) on the horse and attached the rope to a telegraph pole in the field. He took off, I let go and watched, he hit the end of the rope and went base over apex. He lay there twitching and I thought he had broken his neck. He hadn't. I led him back and again he took off but not so fast. He went down onto his knees the second time, third time I shortened to rope and the moment he pulled I let him go. He came back to a trot way before he hit the end. 

The next day he was so stiff - I didn't have an iota of sympathy for him! I tacked him up and lunged him. He never once tried to race off. After ten minutes I took him to the fence and got on him and rode him for a good hour and rode him hard. 

Never had any problems with him afterwards. I was representing the Pony Club in the Horse Trials and the horse I was riding went lame so I took him. He had one schooling session XC before the competition, above average dressage score, clear SJ and XC. 

We never even advertised him, he was bought by a well known eventing family who did very well with him.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Elana said:


> Training a horse to lunge is more than clipping a line to a halter and driving the horse in circles. When lunging is used property it teaches the horse to yield to the bit, to balance and to track up. It can be part of the breaking to ride process but due to the horse's age at breaking is less useful for that as it does stress a horse's joints to be working in a 30 foot (European) or 24 foot circle (I prefer a European metric lunge line). So.. when breaking a young horse I never lunged the horse (I did LONGE line them.. over hill and dale!). I broke my horses at 2-2.5 years, put them up and brought them back out at 3-3.5 and put them to work.
> 
> The first issue is that your are training this horse in a halter. A snaffle bridle with the line (NO CHAIN) hooked in the bit ring on the outside of the circle, over the poll and through the inside bit ring then to you is the correct way to set up a lunge line if you do not have a proper lunging cavesson.
> 
> ...


The lunging with a chain is used WHEN i lunge a horse, not ready to be started under saddle, as a yearling or a two year old, where they do have to learn to lunge, just so I can have a means of safely warming them up at shows.
It does not mean I use lunging to condition them, as that is hard on joints, and I pony them instead, but they do have to learn to lunge

Since this horse is being lunged off the halter, not tacked up, I assume it is not broke to respond to a bit, thus would NOT lunge such a horse off a bit, obviously!

IF I AM NOT SHOWING A HORSE< i don't lunge that horse until I use it as part of bitting that horse up, and I do have a few things in place before I lunge that horse off the bit. I do NOT use that English method of a rein over the poll, as by the time I lunge off a bit, the horse is broke enough to lunge without pulling, and I use the inside ring of the snaffle

Before the horse is lunged, with saddle and bit, i first have free lunged that horse with tack a few times, checked head around, ect

I then first lunge that colt, with a halter under the snaffle bridle, with the reins use tied loosely tot he saddle, just having the horse learn to carry the bit. I lunge off the halter at this point still. You do NOT lunge a colt OFF a bit, until he knows how to give to the bit!
Over time, I gradually bit the horse up. When that horse keeps frame, topline, gait, executes all transitions on command, THEN AND ONLY then, do I start to lunge off of the inside ring of the snaffle.
IF THAT HORSE PULLS< WHILE STILL BEING at the stage of not being ready to be lunged off the bit, I will use a stud shank with that halter.

Lets get things in perspective, in regards to where a horse is at.
Some horses do need to learn to lunge, before they are ready to be bitted up. Others simply are not ready to be lunged off a bit, having never learned how to give to a bit correctly. I sure as hell won;t lunge a horse off a bit that still pulls!!!!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

^^^^^ love this story from Foxhunter! 
Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do and often rainbows and cookies just do not cut it. 

If the horse had not learned he would have died anyway so at that point if the pressure needed to cure the horse could kill the horse as well, then you are at the same point. Might as well give it a go and maybe.. just maybe.. the horse will be trained and not die! 

In this case the horse did not die and went on to be used and useful! Clearly if you could have explained it to the horse with understanding and in those terms, "Do this, not that or you will die" the horse likely would have chosen to live as well.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

You are preaching to the choir, Elana, far as using lunging for a learning experience!
You will also note that I said with correct training, the chain should never be necessary, but we are talking of a horse that has learned he can pull away
I also said this horse might very well not be ready to be lunged, and needs some holes filled in, far as giving to pressure in general.
HOWEVER< if this horse is going to be lunged, he has to have any attempt to pull away made unsuccesful, and I don;t know about you, but I would rather correct that behavior with a halter and stud shank, than having that horse pull on that bit. The mouth has to be preserves at all cost.
I never recommended that all horses be lunged with a stud shank, that lunging should not be a learning experience, but rather how to correct a horse that might not be ready to lunge off a bit, and who has learned he can pull away.
My horses lunge, off the inside ring of a bit, on a loose lunge line, at all gaits and transitions, while keeping frame and collection


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Smilie I am glad what you are doing works for you! Just another perspective on the subject. 

The reason for the line over the poll is not to control the horse but to apply more even pressure to the snaffle bit and not interfere as much with the bit as a line snapped to the inside ring only. If I was training a young horse to lunge (I just did not do this) I would get a proper lunging cavesson so as to avoid the bit being involved in the lunging at all. 

I still go to that.. a proper lunging cavesson with a center ring for the line on top of the horse's nose. MUCH better and more effective and the "go to" answer in the end. 

However, the line over the poll is the next best replacement for the lunging cavesson if you need to lunge a horse and have no cavesson available. If I was working a young horse as you describe, that equipment would be part of the set up. 

Either way, a young horse will be saddled at some point so I would get a surcingle on even a young horse. JMO. No need to agree or disagree. For every training method used, there are many others and that is OK. 

My way might not work or your way might not work _on this particular horse. _That is OK. Just read the horse and try something that will work!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Well, foxhunter;s example is very similar to what old outfitters did, far as making a horse consider 'whoa', the command from GOD.
They used the running W. Just after yelling whoa, they jerked the horses feet from under him. Those horses that did not break a leg, sure learned to slam on the breaks when they heard, 'whoa'"
Sometimes you use what you gotta use, but in the case Foxhunter gave, that horse could have perhaps not needed such a drastic approach, had some steps been taken to first teach him respect and give, before trying to lunge him, JMO.
Some times you have to use what you have to use, if something has to be 'done right now".
Many times, going back and filling in holes first, can make some extreme , 'do or die tactic', not necessary.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Elana said:


> Smilie I am glad what you are doing works for you! Just another perspective on the subject.
> 
> The reason for the line over the poll is not to control the horse but to apply more even pressure to the snaffle bit and not interfere as much with the bit as a line snapped to the inside ring only. If I was training a young horse to lunge (I just did not do this) I would get a proper lunging cavesson so as to avoid the bit being involved in the lunging at all.
> 
> ...


I agree, different things work for different people, and a lunging cavasson and rein over the poll is more of English methods, so won't even go there, deciding which is better. I have never needed a lunging cavasson
Many western trainers will also use long driving lines while lunging. 
Fact is, I don't use lunging much -period, and never even taught horses to lunge, back in the days when i started reiners and working horses
It is very common in those disciplines, to just do some ground work, maybe ground drive a time or two, and then just get on and train while riding.
I do often use a surcingle, first few times, before I use a saddle, but see no point of using one on a horse that is not of an age to have a bit in his mouth

Anyway, we are not talking how to train a horse to lunge, how to use lunging far as ground work, BUT, on fixing a horse that has learned he can pull away, much like Foxhunter described, but not as severe yet, and not with such blatant disrespect

In fact, hers is how I was taught to lunge a western horse, once he knew how to respond to a bit, by a very successful trainer
One of the big faults in lunging, besides strain on joints, if done too much, is the horse learning to drop that inside shoulder.
Thus, he had me lunge with that inside rein checked back slightly more than the outside one, and also making sure to drive the horse up

Once a horse knows how to give to a bit, I really want zero pressure on that bit, with the horse learning to seek that circle, on a loose line, just like he will when ridden, seeking that circle on a loose rein

I can take those finished horses, and lunge them off apalin web halter, with those horses keeping that frame and topline. Horses are creatures of habit, and I am working towards a horse that eventually works on a loose rein.
I am glad we each have what works for us, but just had to clarify that I certainly don't believe in putting a stud shank on a horse, to control him while lunging, and never have tried to even teach that horse that lunging is work time and not do your own thing, tearing around time.

That chain is a' fix, tool,' on a horse that has learned to pull away while lunged, same as when he has learned to pull away while led. 
Same as using a body rope on a horse that has learned to halter pull.

Hopefully, we never have to go there, but when we do, I go for the cure.!


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

I stopped using lunging altogether at one point.. when I decided to drop English riding for western. JFYI. 

I did a quite a lot of lunging training prior to that.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Elana said:


> I stopped using lunging altogether at one point.. when I decided to drop English riding for western. JFYI.
> 
> I did a quite a lot of lunging training prior to that.


yes, we all use what works, depending as to where we are in life, far as riding, disciplines and comfort level
I started colts for many many years, without ever teaching them to lunge, and without having around pen
Many of my horses from that era, died, never knowing how to lunge.
Certainly not used much in working cowhorse, reining, where I first started my showing endeavors
Only started to use lunging when I switched to all around/western pl horses, for several reasons.
First, many of those horses are shown in hand, before they are of riding age, so you need away to exercise them when they are at a weekend show, or longer show format.
Using lunging to bit a western pl horse up, is very common, as is lunging those junior horses at shows before riding (will never see reiners out there lunging in the warm up, LOL! )
This lunging is not done because all western pl/riding trainers can't 'cowboy up', but because western pl horses are rewarded for going in a relaxed manner, on a loose rein, so you want them ready to ride, listening, before getting on and thus not needing to get into their mouth
Once a pleasure horse is seasoned some, I never lunge them for a warmup, but just ride, doing suppling exercises for a warmup.
Never lunge our trail horses, even after they have been tied up over night, in the mountains,w here often one can hear wolves howling at night, and elk bugling. Certainly don't lunge a broke horse at home, before riding
Most of our horses, used just for trail riding, even now, never learned to lunge. They might have been round penned a time or two, when first started.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Yes, a web halter, with good hardware. I have no use for a rope halter
> A horse doe snot get away with that chain run under the chin, snapped to the top ring on the off side.
> Of course, you teach that horse how to respond tot hat chain, while led, before ever lunging him that way.
> That stud chain is long enough, so that it has no effect, unless the horse pulls, and it also releases instantly when the horse gives.
> ...


Any horse CAN get away with anything.

Less likely to sure, but without knowing the situation I would definitely not say he "will not".

I think you are misunderstanding what I meant by twisted. If the horse has the lead snapped to the right, run under the chin and coming out of the left, and you are standing on the right of the horse (for example) it will not work correctly.

Assuming the OPs horse isn't broke is a bit of a stretch. LOTS of people lunge off a halter or with a rope halter. Lots of people also have horses with bad habits that are not caused by holes. I will throw a halter on and lunge off that at times. Both with the line over the poll and simply snapped to the bottom ring depending.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Elana said:


> Smilie I am glad what you are doing works for you! Just another perspective on the subject.
> 
> The reason for the line over the poll is not to control the horse but to apply more even pressure to the snaffle bit and not interfere as much with the bit as a line snapped to the inside ring only. If I was training a young horse to lunge (I just did not do this) I would get a proper lunging cavesson so as to avoid the bit being involved in the lunging at all.
> 
> ...


Yes yes yes! Smilie and I were disagreeing on another thread on chain vs line over poll. I think it's an agree to disagree  She does have good points but nothing that would make me think the chain is better or encourage me to use it. The "balance" achieved by the line over the poll is very important to me and something I didn't think to mention. I would never attach the line directly to the bit. Too much.."noise" and pull (even on a loose line). IMO. Again, agree to disagree, I respect that she knows what she is doing even if it's different.

As far as Foxhunters story it wasn't a for fun rehab experience. As we know just because a horse does something doesn't always mean they "don't know". The ideal method? No, nor do I think Foxhunter meant it as such. For the situation? I think it was appropriate...definitely effective!


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

Love these debates, I use a rope halter. I've lunged with a chain and a line over the poll and they both work as equally well as a rope halter with a bit of patience. So many horsemen rag on others because they have different methods of training. To me- whatever works, works. I've personally had experienced horsemen attack my training methods because it wasn't their way. But in the end, we get the same results. The trick is finding something that works with that particular horse.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Yogiwick said:


> Any horse CAN get away with anything.
> 
> Less likely to sure, but without knowing the situation I would definitely not say he "will not".
> 
> ...


Of course you have to change hook up, with that chain run under the chin, as you change directions

Even if the horse is broke, if he pulls, I rather deal with that , using a stud shank, then risk mouth damage

Note, I also said that over the poll, is mainly an English thing, and that we each use what works for us.

Horses that have bad habits do have holes, by not nipping that habit in the bud.

Sure, I just lunge off a halter,on a young horse, BUT if that young horse decides to pull away, catches me un prepared, and manages to do so, I don't wait for that to become a habit, but will fix it the next time, thus using a chain shank, should the horse try to pull away again
Pull away once-learning experience, let that horse manage to pull away a second time, and 'shame on me'
Horses are creatures of habit-the longer you allow them to engage in a bad habit, the more ingrained it becomes
I also will use a body rope, the very first time a horse ever decides to halter pull, but with correct training, teaching a horse to give to pressure, one should never need to deal with either a horse that pulls away or halter pulls

My elaboration resulted by someone saying not to use a chain, and to lunge instead with that over the poll bit set up. Nothing wrong with using that method, BUT on a horse that has learned to pull away, my point was I rather use a chain shank to fix that horse, rather then have that horse try to pull away, lunged off the bit. A horse only has one mouth,, and I try to keep it as soft as possible. Using a bit to hold a horse from pulling away, is not it, in my books anyway.

it is the same ole principle of making the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard.
If the horse lunges with respect, no need to use a chain.
Lunging off the bit, on a respectful horse, should be used as part of the learning experience, with that horse giving correctly to the bit, moving in frame as he is expected to go when ridden, and not for control, JMO
I hope that makes it more clear!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i am not debating different methods of lunging, trying to have it 'my way or the highway' , as different methods work, and I agree that there is no one way.

My point was merely on fixing a horse that has learned he can pull away.
I would rather not use abit in that case, and why I rather use a chain on a horse that has learned his own strength, and called the bluff on that puny human at the end of that lunge line and halter

Now, if you can hold a horse that seriously tries to pull away, at the lope, with a cavasson or rope halter, all the more power to you, but I am not so sure I could hold a horse that really took that dive away, while at alope,or even a down right attempted bolt, using a cavasson or a rope halter, thus prefer that stud shank


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

This question is not meant to be confrontational in the least, as I really don't understand the mechanics of the lunging method of running the lunge lin eover the poll, thus applying pressure on the offside, in away you never use those reins while riding.
If I'm riding a circle to the left, using a snaffle, I don;t apply pressure to both sides of that bit tot he left. I will have the right rein against the neck, so the horse has the beginning of understanding the neck rein, but no bit pressure to the left is used on the right rein

This from Wikipedia 

'On a well-trained horse, a bridle may be used instead of a longeing cavesson. However, it is possible to injure a horse's mouth if the line is incorrectly attached or misused. Some sensitive horses may react badly to the attachment of the line to the bit, and some classical dressage masters considered this method to be crude.'

Note, 'well trained'

In all fairness, it does go on to say this, thus my question partly answered, but I don't want a gag effect, and I use a curb strap to prevent that bit from being pulled through the mouth;


The correct method is to run the longe line through the inside bit ring, over the poll, and attach it to the outside bit ring. This method of attaching the line requires it to be changed each time the horse changes direction. This method has a slight gag effect, raising the bit up and applying pressure on the corners of the mouth and placing pressure on the poll, but puts less lateral pressure on the bit. It is best for horses that pull, or when the trainer is longeing a rider, to ensure maximum control of the horse.

If the longe line is attached just to the inside bit ring, the outside ring can slide through the mouth when the line is pulled and damage the horse's mouth. If the line is run through the inside bit ring, under the chin, and attached to the outside bit ring, the bit can pinch the horse's jaw, and it alters the action of the bit to put pressure on the roof of the horse's mouth. When a method of attachment causes more pain than control, the horse often resists the pressure and will not perform properly.

It also applies to ahorse that just pulls, versus one that has learned to pull away, once he has enough momentum, to make that attempt successful.

Well, OP now has enough info to make whatever choice will work best for her and her horse, and I do want to finish by saying there is no one way to train ahorse. It is why we all try various methods, go to different clinics, and then use what works best for us!


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

Elana said:


> Training a horse to lunge is more than clipping a line to a halter and driving the horse in circles. When lunging is used property it teaches the horse to yield to the bit, to balance and to track up. It can be part of the breaking to ride process but due to the horse's age at breaking is less useful for that as it does stress a horse's joints to be working in a 30 foot (European) or 24 foot circle (I prefer a European metric lunge line). So.. when breaking a young horse I never lunged the horse (I did LONGE line them.. over hill and dale!). I broke my horses at 2-2.5 years, put them up and brought them back out at 3-3.5 and put them to work.
> 
> The first issue is that your are training this horse in a halter. A snaffle bridle with the line (NO CHAIN) hooked in the bit ring on the outside of the circle, over the poll and through the inside bit ring then to you is the correct way to set up a lunge line if you do not have a proper lunging cavesson.
> 
> ...


I got about lunging like Clinton Anderson and Pat Parelli, just a rope halter and lunge line, although I don't follow all their techniques. I don't have a surcingle. 
I might try lunging him in a bit. I mainly lunge to get him focused and paying attention to me, not just for exercise. 

I'll work on trotting for a couple weeks to get him adjusted to that instead of flat out asking for the lope/canter.


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## tikimurrayreg (Jan 9, 2015)

Elana said:


> I stopped using lunging altogether at one point.. when I decided to drop English riding for western. JFYI.
> 
> I did a quite a lot of lunging training prior to that.


I ride western, and I just want him to be able to lunge on a line because I need a way to get him paying attention to me before our rides when I don't have a round pen available. He's only 4, and has what seems like a limitless amount of energy, so it's also helpful to let him get some extra energy out before our rides.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie said:


> This question is not meant to be confrontational in the least, as I really don't understand the mechanics of the lunging method of running the lunge lin eover the poll, thus applying pressure on the offside, in away you never use those reins while riding.
> If I'm riding a circle to the left, using a snaffle, I don;t apply pressure to both sides of that bit tot he left. I will have the right rein against the neck, so the horse has the beginning of understanding the neck rein, but no bit pressure to the left is used on the right rein
> 
> This from Wikipedia
> ...


My understanding above


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

tikimurrayreg said:


> I ride western, and I just want him to be able to lunge on a line because I need a way to get him paying attention to me before our rides when I don't have a round pen available. He's only 4, and has what seems like a limitless amount of energy, so it's also helpful to let him get some extra energy out before our rides.


Thought- try working on this AFTER you ride sometimes 

Focusing is good- if you get him focusing!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikimurrayreg 
I ride western, and I just want him to be able to lunge on a line because I need a way to get him paying attention to me before our rides when I don't have a round pen available. He's only 4, and has what seems like a limitless amount of energy, so it's also helpful to let him get some extra energy out before our rides.
Thought- try working on this AFTER you ride sometimes 

Well, since he is broke, lunge him bitted up, expecting him to go like he should when ridden.
If a horse is ready to be lunged off a bit, i do so, but if not, I leave a halter on under that bridle and lunge off the halter
Everyone does what they feel comfortable with, and I myself rather get extra control if I need to, other than by using the bit. It is one thing if a horse just leans on that lunge line, and quite another if he tries to take off.
Thus, I prefer to use a stud shank, run under the chin, just a few times, to fix that horse who has succeeded in pulling away.
Once I have that, I' m fine lunging either off the bit or halter.
Western trainers do lunge off that inside ring of the snaffle, no problem, We do use a curb strap(non functioning, far as any curb action on that snaffle ), to prevent the accidental pull of the opposite ring into the mouth
Perhaps the difference stems from the fact that western, we want that horse to eventually ride on a loose rein and thus keep that mouth softer.
We also want no poll pressure, but rather promote a relaxed head carriage.
I have a difficult time accepting the mechanics of the bit, with that set up of over the poll
It seems to work English, so I guess you can decide what works best for you and your horse.
I think we all pretty much agree that just letting a horse zoom around on the lunge line, doing his own thing, to burn off energy, is not what you want
First, lunging like riding, is work time, and thus you have to be in control.
Also, if you let him zoom around to burn off energy, you will have to lunge him longer and longer before you ride
Does he have turn out? That is the time for a horse to play and o his own thing
If you get him listening more, using himself correctly, driving up, going in frame, doing lots of transitions, will burn off way more excess energy then just letting him do whatever, plus it will get him in the mind set of work, before you get on


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by tikimurrayreg
> I ride western, and I just want him to be able to lunge on a line because I need a way to get him paying attention to me before our rides when I don't have a round pen available. He's only 4, and has what seems like a limitless amount of energy, so it's also helpful to let him get some extra energy out before our rides.
> Thought- try working on this AFTER you ride sometimes
> ...


O/T but I'm curious how you get the desired collection and headset and "going as he would under saddle" with just the halter, or inside ring of the bit. I am not familiar with the "proper western way" lol. Just the English way (side reins) and what I do with my own horses which works well for me lol


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## BiologyBrain (Jul 9, 2015)

tikimurrayreg said:


> I ride western, and I just want him to be able to lunge on a line because I need a way to get him paying attention to me before our rides when I don't have a round pen available. He's only 4, and has what seems like a limitless amount of energy, so it's also helpful to let him get some extra energy out before our rides.


I'm working with my mare on her longing skills too. She was trained in a round pen, not on a longe line. We change directions often, but I strive for her to do so with calmness and speed, but with more emphasis on calmness. I've been working really hard with her on slowing and calming her on the longe. Too many round pen trained horses have been chased around a round pen and have no idea how to actually relax and use themselves properly. Every step I take is meant to elicit a specific response from her, so I keep myself quiet to keep her calm.

Instead of running your horse into a canter, maybe you should try putting a ground pole or small 'jump' in a specific part of the area you longe. Trot your horse over that pole as you ask for a canter. Most horses will gladly take up a canter and be focused on the jump - not on bolting away. It's the method I'm getting ready to use on my mare. 

When she gets strong I have a method of keeping the line in my hands. I have a bad arm (hand, arm, and shoulder) - my left - so I'm always looking for ways to strengthen my position. I take the line and run it from my left hand (while my horse is circling left) to my right hand behind my butt. Then I can use both my left hand and right hand as well as the leverage from my butt to keep her in line. At no point is the line wrapped around me in any way, but I do have much more control. I use my left hand to do the finer bumping, but my right hand and leverage of my seat in ready in case she tries to pull. 

I also position myself differently than the classical longe position. I have a long longe line - 30 ft - attached to her rope halter with a carabiner. I'm a bit behind the classic drive line - or even Clinton Anderson or the other NH drive lines - more even with the flanks. I keep my hips positioned at an angle to hers always driving her forwards. Every step I take is towards her rear end - so much that I probably walk at 15-20 ft circle most of the time too. My hips are angled toward her hips and towards the direction I want her to travel. I increase or decrease the angle and the 'stomp' of my steps depending on how fast I want her to go. I try to use the same words as I longe that I'll use when I drive her later, walk, trot on, can-ter, whoa, haw, gee, and over. 

Every step I take is meant to elicit a specific response from her. Every time you are with your horse you are training them for better or worse. Always remember that what you put in is what you'll get out. Good luck!:cowboy:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

'O/T but I'm curious how you get the desired collection and headset and "going as he would under saddle" with just the halter, or inside ring of the bit. I am not familiar with the "proper western way" lol. Just the English way (side reins) and what I do with my own horses which works well for me lol'

Answer.
My horses get that collection'frame, lunged off a halter, once they have been taught that, using a bit. No different then a western horse trained correctly, to eventually learn to carry himself in frame, and collected, on a loose rein
Never said I got that frame, off a halter, on a green horse!
Western reins are neither closed , nor short.
Thus, when first lunging the horse off the halter, as he is learning to respond to that bit, the halter is left on under the bridle, and the reins are checked back gradually, over time. Only then do I lunge off the bit alone.
Unlike English, those reins are not just drapped over the neck, or tied up out of the way, but are checked back, just like you would use side reins, and then the lunge line is attached to that inside ring


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

If you have to try and physically hold your horse, using brute strength, during lunging, you are defeating any positives from lunging in the first place
That is the entire point of teaching a horse never to pull on that lunge line.
Do you try and anchor the lead shank with two hands, while leading your horse, allowing him to pull?
Our entire training is built around teaching a horse to yield to pressure, be it the bit, a lead rope, alung line, a leg applied. The minute you allow your horse to lean into that pressure, by leaning on a bit, pulling on a lunge line, dragging behind, or charging ahead while led, you have missed the 'eight ball'
I am not going to try and out pull my horse. I am going to correct him. Back him off that bit, make him move off that leg, and in this case, lunge with respect, learning to keep slack in that lunge line at all gaits, so I don't NEED core strength to hold him, and certainly not use myself as an anchor


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Since lunge line classes are only for yearlings. these examples show yearlings, and even yearlings can be taught to lunge with respect

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1J6UqDXRuI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hCvr0fJLtI

The handlers are not walking circles, the horse is not pulling, and they are lunged just off the halter. These are just yearlings!


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Smilie said:


> 'O/T but I'm curious how you get the desired collection and headset and "going as he would under saddle" with just the halter, or inside ring of the bit. I am not familiar with the "proper western way" lol. Just the English way (side reins) and what I do with my own horses which works well for me lol'
> 
> Answer.
> My horses get that collection'frame, lunged off a halter, once they have been taught that, using a bit. No different then a western horse trained correctly, to eventually learn to carry himself in frame, and collected, on a loose rein
> ...


Thanks! Interesting. I just never really thought about it, but definitely makes sense. I was wondering how it "converted" from under saddle to on the ground.


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