# So why don't we breed horses like this?



## Chasin Ponies (Dec 25, 2013)

There are a few in the US and in reality, a horse like this would be my dream come true. Unfortunately, given the price of them I'd never be able to afford one! Yes, if they became more common the price would come down but so
far that isn't happening. This type of horse is candy to my eye!

Right now in my area, someone is breeding and cross breeding Friesians.(as an example) Some are pure and of decent quality but he is letting outside off-breeding and some really strange looking horses are the result. I've looked at the horses he has for sale and can't justify paying that much for a horse when I can get super nice Quarter horses for a quarter of that. 

Also, a lot of people want to show and you'd have to travel to the specialty circuit to have a chance of even placing. By owning Quarter horses, a person can easily find 10 shows within driving distance!


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## WhattaTroublemaker (Aug 13, 2013)

I second the cross breeding thing. I'm almost glad we don't have a lot of them here because we would have some CRAZY looking crosses. Around here people have a few Friesians and they will cross them with any old nag and try to sell them for 10 000$+. On our local listings someone had "1/4 Friesian 3/4 standardbred brood mare- great Friesian stock to add to any breeding program" listed as 7000$. Like really??


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## Jan1975 (Sep 7, 2015)

Someone only about 30 minutes from me breeds Lusitanos. They are beautiful!


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## Dehda01 (Jul 25, 2013)

I see a lot of poorer quality horses in the states with poorer movement. A few lusitanos are that have been imported are lovely. But many have strong personalities from hundreds of years of being bred for being a bullfighter's horse. That is often a much bolder horse than the "average" owner is comfortable breaking/training/riding. There are certainly lines that are less driven, but I often compare them to border collies. They can be lovely to watch, but I don't always want to live with them. And the ones that breeders are actively working to improve temperament and movement on are often very, very expensive.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Here in So Cal we have lots of Andalusians, Aztecas and Friesians.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

There are Lusitano's here but unless you've got a 'job' for them they're too expensive for the average rider and too 'high geared' for anyone that wants a quiet relaxing trail ride
We had a person that boarded her horses with us in the UK that imported one from Portugal, a lovely mare but she wasn't as good at jumping or dressage as a purpose bred WB and no good for UK showing classes so she sold her on to a breeder.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

Breeding is one thing but to get quality and consistency the cull is equally important, and while they have probably been at it long enough now, they are producing consistent results, I imagine they culled hard in the beginning. Americans don't have the stomach to cull and that is why the kill pens and craigslist are full of unwanted stock.

Jim


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The Lusitano's in Portugal are the horses used for bull fighting, if they get injured they get shot. Another UK friend rescued such a horse when she saw it injured while on holiday over there, the owner had no interest in treating it at all and took a lot of persuading to let her have it. He was a lovely horse and well worth her effort and cost of stitching him up


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

the videos are not showing up Just blue circules with slashes through them.

Are the videos of a horse named Merlin on utube?


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## cbar (Nov 27, 2015)

I do not see too many breeders of these horses in my province. There is a barn not far from me that does breed Lusitanos. But they also cross them, so not too sure what the cross-breds look like. I did see one of the pure Lusitano horses out on a poker rally. Beautiful horse but WAY too hot for an event like that.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

RegalCharm said:


> the videos are not showing up Just blue circules with slashes through them.
> 
> Are the videos of a horse named Merlin on utube?


Golega Lusitano Fair - maybe the direct link will work for you Regal


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That's weird - I didn't embed it - try searching YT for LusitanoMonteMerouco


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

jimmyp said:


> Breeding is one thing but to get quality and consistency the cull is equally important, and while they have probably been at it long enough now, they are producing consistent results, I imagine they culled hard in the beginning. Americans don't have the stomach to cull and that is why the kill pens and craigslist are full of unwanted stock.
> 
> Jim


This right here. ^^^^^^ 

In Spain they have the Yeguada Militar de Jerez de Frontera where they breed Andalusians and Arabians. The culls are used to feed the military and the army comes and picks them up every year. This is how they made and Keep consistently superior horses in their bands. It also serves to keep prices stable.


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## RegalCharm (Jul 24, 2008)

jaydee said:


> That's weird - I didn't embed it - try searching YT for LusitanoMonteMerouco


found it, thanks JD


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> ...I know there are probably a few breeders or importers, but gee, the whole riding style and conformation of the horses is so very different from what we seem to value in the States...Why don't we value and breed horses like this?...


Speaking for myself, they are not horses who move like I desire. In Arizona, at least, I think most people buy horses for trail rides, and a horse bred for collection isn't bred for what they want to do. I'm sure they ARE available for the high end market, but not for a "Craigslist" trail riding horse.

I love Arabians, and currently ride an Arabian/Mustang mix, but HE isn't what a lot of folks around here want in a horse, either. Neither was Mia, the purebred Arabian mare I rode for 7 years with varying degrees of success. I consider my horse to be a level-headed fellow with a lot of good sense, but I accept we might sometimes do some sideways dancing and that he rides best with an active rider. But where I live, lots of riders don't want to work while riding. They prefer my daughter's approach:








​ 
It is supply and demand. The people who visit me who want to go ride in the desert love how Trooper (the horse above) moves - safe, secure, no effort required. They value "Steady Eddys". I value efficient movement, and collection is extra work for a horse. So horses who naturally move with a lot of collection, and who require an active rider, are a niche market - and niche markets are small and cost more.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

RegalCharm said:


> the videos are not showing up Just blue circules with slashes through them.
> 
> Are the videos of a horse named Merlin on utube?


No, but I adore Merlin's videos! 

The links are showing up as embedded videos for me (like the one Jaydee reposted) but when I put them in my post, they were just links. It seems the forum now turns them into embedded videos on it's own. :shrug:

I know the horses look "hot" and I think they value that, but also keep in mind I think the majority of these horses are stallions (there was another video that was at a lower angle and it was obvious the majority of Lusitanos were stallions) and any horse is going to get "hot" in a big group like that. At least most horses with a pulse!

I also know they are expensive, but you know, Arabians started out the same way in the USA. Expensive and too "hot" or "fragile" to do anything with, or so people thought. And now look at them. They are popular, lower priced, and used extensively for endurance and showing. 

I love how everyone parades around a track and shows off their horses. Apparently just for the fun of it. Fancy high-end Lusitano stallions, carriage horses and ponies, all sharing the same space. It looks like organized chaos, but what fun! I wish we had horse fairs like that. Where you can go and show off your horses just for fun, be with other horse people and are not judged or really care if your horse is perfect. Wouldn't that be a blast? 

My horses aren't highly trained and I don't care to try to meet a show ring standard, many of which I don't even like the look of. But if we could just get together and show our horses around for fun, what a concept that would be. Just a celebration of all things equine. 

I did a 4th of July parade once and the speeding policemen on motorcycles zooming past us scared the crud out of me. :x

Let me try this other video link. Not the best quality and that is why I didn't post it the first time. But I am so amazed that no one gets kicked or run into because I have never seen so many horses moving together in such a small space!


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Beautiful Horses!
I only watched about half of the first video and I noticed that the riders were mostly men, I saw a few more women in the second video.
Amazing that no one got kicked, I didn't see one horse even offer to kick out and no rearing. Some of the horses were held on pretty tight holds but some danced around but did not rear.
Has anyone seen the horses that Lorenzo rides and shows? They are Andalusions and beautiful too.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

bsms said:


> Speaking for myself, they are not horses who move like I desire. In Arizona, at least, I think most people buy horses for trail rides, and a horse bred for collection isn't bred for what they want to do.


Same here. I have a neighbor who imports Friesians (I think that's what they are) from Europe, and as far as I can tell does nothing but ride them in circles around her arena, sometimes go to a show, then sells them to someone with IMHO more money than sense.

They're pretty horses, but no prettier than my 'free to good home" Ellie, and I'd much rather ride my friend's butt-ugly but rock solid mustang on the trail than one of them.

Pretty is as pretty does, after all.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bsms said:


> Speaking for myself, they are not horses who move like I desire. In Arizona, at least, I think most people buy horses for trail rides, and a horse bred for collection isn't bred for what they want to do. I'm sure they ARE available for the high end market, but not for a "Craigslist" trail riding horse.
> 
> I love Arabians, and currently ride an Arabian/Mustang mix, but HE isn't what a lot of folks around here want in a horse, either. Neither was Mia, the purebred Arabian mare I rode for 7 years with varying degrees of success. I consider my horse to be a level-headed fellow with a lot of good sense, but I accept we might sometimes do some sideways dancing and that he rides best with an active rider. But where I live, lots of riders don't want to work while riding. They prefer my daughter's approach:
> 
> ...


I think a lot of us at the lower end of the horse market make due with what we have available. Take Arabians for instance. I think back in the 20's or whenever they were first being imported they were expensive and a niche market too. Then eventually they became so common that even a common man could afford them. I bet Thoroughbreds were the same way. There was a time that the common man couldn't afford one because only the wealthy bred Thoroughbreds. Now if you are lucky you could find one free or cheap. 

I guess my question is more along the lines of why do we prefer something that moves like a QH vs. something that moves like a Lusitano? Why are do people in the USA want their horses to move with such a low head carriage and comparatively little impulsion? Is it in fact, that we lack the skill level want to day-dream on our trail rides? I do that too. And I really want nothing more than for my green gelding to turn into a laid-back trail horse. But that's because I'm not a skilled trainer and he is a bit over my skill level. If I was a good trainer or could afford a good trainer, I would love for him to move in a collected trot or canter when asked. I admit I have a lack of skill. But why don't we strive towards a proud and noble horse? Why don't we value that? Anyone can ride a plug. And that seems to be what everyone's goal is over here. :shrug:


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

There are high end Lusitanos in the states. 

I think this was mentioned above, but supply and demand are at play here. 
You see more Fords than Ferraris, you catch my drift?


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Zexious said:


> There are high end Lusitanos in the states.
> 
> I think this was mentioned above, but supply and demand are at play here.
> You see more Fords than Ferraris, you catch my drift?


Yeah but look at Arabians and Thoroughbreds. They were once considered Ferraris and now they are common as Fords. 

Why is there not a demand for this type of horse? I would certainly be proud to ride one down the trail. ;-) 

I think we just must not value hot horses over here. Then again, look at Arabians and Thoroughbreds...........we have plenty of those.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Iberian horses are not easy horses. they are sensitive and opinionated. they take a special approach. the two (yes , I only know of two people who have owned lusitanos) that I've seen both ended up being sold on due to being just too difficult. they 'challenged ' their owners regularly.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^I actually disagree with the above. (EDIT @trailhorserider not @tinyliny My post was too slow)
There _are_ still Arabs and Thoroughbreds that are priced like 'Ferraris' (for our intents and purposes.) But there are more of them that are 'Ford' priced. Lower quality models, so to speak.

The issue comes down to price.
I'd love to own and ride one too, but the last time I went horse shopping my budget was 10k. 10k won't get me near a high end Lusitano.

There are lower priced Lusitanos.
Here's one for $5k Fmr Cholena, Bay Lusitano Mare, Nimbus Do Mirante Granddaughter in Washington - DreamHorse.com Horse ID: 1815165
And another for $4k Lucio, Bay Roan Lusitano Colt, Beautiful Moving Lusitano Stud Colt APSL Eligible in Oregon - DreamHorse.com Horse ID: 2028949

By that same token, here's one for 25
Encanto Jap, Grey Lusitano Gelding, Powerful strong and athletic dressage horse in Texas - DreamHorse.com Horse ID: 2031767
A simple, two second DH search found me these. They're all out there, if you look hard enough.

I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not a horse is hot--most any equine 'athlete' will have a healthy amount of go. I just don't think they've really found their niche.


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## JCnGrace (Apr 28, 2013)

Do I look at these horses and see beauty? Yes I do, but also see beauty in all the other breeds too. The thing is to my eye nothing can be more gorgeous than a well built qh or match their athleticism. Thankfully we all have different opinions and that is why we have so many different breeds available to choose from. Variety is the spice of life!

Trailhorserider, you can get a watered down version of meeting like minded people, talking horse all day, and getting to observe a variety of horses just by taking your horse to a camp/trail place for a weekend. I used to go to Brown Co. (state park that had a horse camp) all the time and if I saw a horse that moved a lot differently and talked to their rider about their horse I almost always got an invitation to take it for it a little spin. I got my first ride on several different gaited breeds that way. This was back in the day before the internet and the info available to know much about breeds other than what you had immediately around you.


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## Saranda (Apr 14, 2011)

I agree with tinyliny. If the Iberian breeds were more widespread and cheaper, I suspect that many beginners would get them because of their beauty and grace...and then become disappointed or even injured because of their strong characters, high level of energy and also their physical build, which doesn't really make them competitive in the arenas of most common equestrian disciplines.

Wonderful horses. But I'd be really sad for all the destroyed Iberians that would eventually get sent off to slaughter just because somebody once wanted to get a fairytale horse, although what they really needed was a sure footed, level minded, versatile QH or grade.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

tinyliny said:


> Iberian horses are not easy horses. they are sensitive and opinionated. they take a special approach. the two (yes , I only know of two people who have owned lusitanos) that I've seen both ended up being sold on due to being just too difficult. they 'challenged ' their owners regularly.


So does my QH/Fox Trotter cross. But I admit I am a poor trainer. :sad:

The horses in the video are very hot but also extremely well behaved. I saw not one kick or one horse truly out of control. It's quite possible they are just better horse trainers over there. :sad:

But I have ridden hot horses. Arabians and Fox Trotters (and one Thoroughbred). As long as they are nicely trained and not disobedient, a horse with a lot of "go" is a blast to ride. My Fox Trotter mare is barn sour (was before I got her, I did not cause it) and I must admit, as annoying as it is, she is a blast to ride. Annoying because it's a bad behavior. But it makes me smile because she is so much fun. As long as you feel safe, all that power makes you smile. Well, I do anyway. I have friends that I'm sure would find it annoying. But different strokes for different folks. Not everyone likes the same type of horse.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Zexious said:


> ^I actually disagree with the above. (EDIT @*trailhorserider* not @*tinyliny* My post was too slow)
> There _are_ still Arabs and Thoroughbreds that are priced like 'Ferraris' (for our intents and purposes.) But there are more of them that are 'Ford' priced. Lower quality models, so to speak.
> 
> The issue comes down to price.
> I'd love to own and ride one too, but the last time I went horse shopping my budget was 10k. 10k won't get me near a high end Lusitano.


I can't afford a high-end anything. My horse budget is around $2000. (And I paid that for a Mustang because he was perfect for me. My last bargain horse was $500.)

It's not that I am looking to buy one. I just don't know why we don't have more of them over here. Or why we don't breed horses with these characteristics. Maybe TinyLiny is right, they are just too sensitive? Are they more sensitive or tempermental than Arabians? Because people like to talk poorly about Arabians and I owned two that were fabulous trail horses. My very first horse was an Arabian. He was more QH-like in disposition though. :wink:


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

trailhorserider said:


> ...I guess my question is more along the lines of why do we prefer something that moves like a QH vs. something that moves like a Lusitano?...Why are do people in the USA want their horses to move with such a low head carriage and comparatively little impulsion?...Yeah but look at Arabians and Thoroughbreds. They were once considered Ferraris and now they are common as Fords.


If by impulsion you mean an upward lift at the withers, it is because a lot of us don't enjoy bouncing for the sake of bouncing. But a QH has plenty of impulsion, if asked. They just use the power horizontally, to cover ground. And what is wrong with a low head carriage, if that is how the horse is built? I like the way Arabians carry themselves, but I don't see it as superior to how a QH does. 

Southern Arizona DOES have SOME Arabians and Thoroughbreds, but they are uncommon. The lady who worked to train Lilly and Mia had been around horses for 30 years, and they were the first two Arabians she had ever worked with. And I've never seen a Thoroughbred in southern Arizona. I am sure they exist, but there is nothing common about them. Not where I live.

They exist, but they are not "Fords"...


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The Lusitano's in Portugal are very much a part of their tradition and their Tourist Industry which makes up a big part of that countries income which is why they breed for the best and cull the rest
It would be a bad thing for the breed if they were suddenly indiscriminately mass produced over here so everyone could afford one - you only have to look at the differences between a top class Arabian that most average people can't afford and the cheap 'throwaway' Arabians that have emerged from that poor breeding frenzy a few decades ago to know that it would be a mistake
Too often a horse that needs an experienced rider because its 'hot' and sensitive gets labeled dangerous by someone who shouldn't even be riding it


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

I missed the point of the OP I think in my original response. 

Tradition has been mentioned but I think the depth of horse culture in a country is important to consider. We live in a country that has a reasonably short time line. By the time this country had progressed far enough into horse development to start producing type, much beyond utilitarian, we had entered into the automobile age. Instead of these flashy traditional horses that were kind of developed as bragging type or visually appealing animated horses that verged on the edge of useful, our country merged into hot rods and muscle cars. 

Hopefully the way I convey that sounds in print like it does in my mind.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

the issue that there is not a huge demand for that type of horse is what type of riding Americans do. there is a huge demand for western/stock horses (hence the 4 million registers quarter horses). Arabians are bred for Arabians shows but now that endurance took off the have a second purpose and now have a second use. they also make good western horses. TBs are bred in excess. not every tb will make it on (or to) the track so there are plenty that are available for cheep. Frisians there is plenty of demand for but you wont see them doing barrels, cutting, high jumping, speed event and your average trail rider wont forkover that type of money on a trail horse. BUT they are purdy, can do driving and flat work. Andalusians and lusatano (there are a few breeders out here) CAN do western but there are no shows geared towards them and western events out here. why spend that type of money on a lusatano when i could pay 1-3k for a decent paint/qh foal and train it, or event a young broke one?

That being said my GOAL is to eventually GET a lusatano for dressage and MAYBE low level jumping. But i dont expect it to be the next 3 day eventer as it dose not have the speed or stamina needed for such events.


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## knightrider (Jun 27, 2014)

Many years ago, I had someone in my joust troupe who had a Luisitano mare. She was very beautiful, but we all soon learned that for some reason that I can't explain, she was boring and no fun to ride. My friend had her for sale for YEARS and many many people came out to look at her, but no one ever bought her because she was just clunky and no fun. I am thinking she must have been a "cull." My friend got suckered into buying her because she was beautiful. She did not move nicely like those videos. She was a boring plug.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Andalusians were bred for working livestock over here - they are used as stock horses on the farms that breed fighting bulls. They have to be brave, powerful and obedient. Only a tiny percentage are actually used in bull-fighting, and _rejoneo_ (bull-fighting from horseback) is a very specialised art.


(Internet photo)

No reason why they couldn't be used as stock horses in the US too - except that you already have an excellent stock horse in the QH, with a great depth and diversity of bloodlines - so why start with another breed when the bloodstock available might not be the best for breeding real working horses.


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## whisperbaby22 (Jan 25, 2013)

Thanks for chiming in Bondre. I guess I'm lucky to live where there are a lot of these horses. They are a bit fire-ey to look at, but the charro guys around here love trail riding them. We also have a lot of Aztecas, they look like they would make great stock horses.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Its been posted on HF before but its good enough to post again I think


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

bsms said:


> If by impulsion you mean an upward lift at the withers, it is because a lot of us don't enjoy bouncing for the sake of bouncing. But a QH has plenty of impulsion, if asked. They just use the power horizontally, to cover ground. And what is wrong with a low head carriage, if that is how the horse is built? I like the way Arabians carry themselves, but I don't see it as superior to how a QH does.
> 
> Southern Arizona DOES have SOME Arabians and Thoroughbreds, but they are uncommon. The lady who worked to train Lilly and Mia had been around horses for 30 years, and they were the first two Arabians she had ever worked with.
> *
> ...


They don't look bouncy to me at all, more like a rocking horse. I hate the head-hanging-low of the WP horses, but I know some QH's are naturally that way. However, I think the could move more like a Lusitano if they were ridden that way. I just don't know why "dog tired" is a good look for the QH. Just me I guess.

I grew up in North Phoenix, not far from Scottsdale. There were lots of Arabians, cheap and expensive, in my area. And I know several neighbors who got OTTB's for free or cheap. Maybe because of Turf Paradise (the race track). So I don't know why they aren't common in Tucson, but they are very common in Phoenix. I would say besides QH's, if you are looking for an affordable horse in the Phoenix area, you might very well end up with an Arabian or a TB.


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

I think it is because for whatever reason, there are only three types of niches in this country:working, competition, and pleasure.

The working (livestock management) niche is filled here by the Quarter Horse. There is no reason to change that as they are doing a fine job. 

The competition niche is very specialized. You need not just an Arabian but a park type, or an endurance type, not just a Quarter Horse but a cutting bred one, etc etc. There isn't a niche for Lusitanos but it is imaginable that one might be made in the future. 

The pleasure horse in highest esteem is the safe one. An easygoing, dependable and stable temperament, gaited or not as desired. Do those Lusitanos look easygoing to you? They look fun as heck, but that's not the adjective I would use.

I asked the same question about the Morgan not that long ago, and it is more or less the same answer although the breeds are pretty different -- no special competition niche, and not what most visualize as their pleasure horse dream.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I could see Scottsdale having lots of Arabians around. There are some in the Tucson area...but I'd guess it is 90% QH here. Tucson is my closest large city, and I look at their Craigslist ads for horses for fun. Today...there were some Arabians. None special looking, but Bandit isn't special looking and he's turning out to be a pretty good horse.

Also: "_Andalucian mare $ 2000_" (total info) and "_XXX, 6 years, purebred Andalusian, knows Spanish dance, lays down, does the "reverence," Stallion, excellent reigns, horse well trained, no bad habits! $8500_"

And one Thoroughbred, with a picture taken from far away and no info other than age (9).

I live in a glass house. Mia was totally unsuitable for a beginner's trail horse, but I bought her and spent 7 years learning some good things and some bad things. Trooper was an accidental breeding between a very aggressive Appy/Arabian stallion and a purebred Arabian mare, and he's a Steady Eddie. Bandit was a cross of this stallion (the smaller horse, the larger is Mia) and a mustang, bred for the endurance races done in the 4 Corners area:








​ 
So I'm not denigrating anyone's choice of horse. I really like the Arabians I've had, but the only highly bred one was Mia. Bandit was pretty far back in line when they were handing out looks, as was I, but he is surprising me with what he can do well. He has more intelligence and try in him than I gave him credit for having. By summer's end, I may have a horse who will be pretty special - to me. Maybe not to anyone else. And heck, little 13.0 hand BLM mustang Cowboy is, for a trail rider, a remarkable little horse. He would have made a great kid's ranch horse.

And I'd bet Andalusians could make a fun horse to own and ride, provided their breeding and training was OK, and the rider was not intimidated by a horse with spunk. But they also look like a horse bad breeders could drag into the mud quickly, just like people who breed Border Collies for looks. I hate to see any breed ruined by poor breeders trying to make a quick buck off of the lifetime of work done by good breeders!


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

*Bsms*, that's not the only analogy to Border Collies I see here. So many people get them because they are so intelligent and trainable and energetic and end up with a dog that destroys the house because there is nothing for them to do and no one to respect. Just looking at these horses move around makes me think: too much horse for the average rider.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

They could be used as stock horses here in some areas. They have the size, conformation, and innate talent. 

They don't tend to be able to last the long days. Which is why TBs with good bone are favored on bigger cow outfits. 

Lusitanos, Criollos (Argentina), Andalusians have popped up here and there. The people I know that have them, love them, but they don't cover that ground they way a TB or TB cross does. I've only gotten to ride Criollos.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Hey guys, thank you for all the well-thought-out posts. I would love to reply to each on individually but I just don't have the time to keep up! But I do read them all. 

Hey, does anyone know what the fluffy things that look like saddle bags are on the back of their saddles? They really don't look like saddle bags so the best I can come up with is so the person riding double behind you doesn't get their butt sweaty. :biglaugh:


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

A Lusitano or Andalusian is literally my dream horse, and has been since I was a horse crazy little girl. However, unless I were to buy a yearling with less than great breeding, they are out of my league. Most of the nice ones that are old enough to begin training to ride start at 10k.
In addition, my sporty little mustang has become my dream horse. I still love the Iberians and I always will, but I have learned to love the horse I have and the effort I have put into her, and I would not trade her for a high dollar Iberian.

As has been said though, once an animal becomes bred so much that it is common, it is no longer the same quality of animal. You end up with a lesser version that might share similar looks.

I would love to have a horse like the one Jaydee posted. What an incredibly agile animal! THAT is a competition I would be very interested in participating in. I would love to have something like that here. The closest thing I can think of is trail classes (slow, navigate obstacles at a walk, a great way to show off a good trail horse for sale) and gymkhana, neither of which appeal to me.

*off to find out if there is a similar thing in USA*


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> Hey guys, thank you for all the well-thought-out posts. I would love to reply to each on individually but I just don't have the time to keep up! But I do read them all.
> 
> Hey, does anyone know what the fluffy things that look like saddle bags are on the back of their saddles? They really don't look like saddle bags so the best I can come up with is so the person riding double behind you doesn't get their butt sweaty. :biglaugh:


The fluffy thing is a piece of fur. A search indicated it is usually fox. 

I do not know the function, but wonder if it is due to the notion held by some that it is important to keep the kidneys warm. *shrug*


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Found it! Seems to be no activity since last year though :sad:

Working Equitation International Association of the USA


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

we are not far from turf paradise (i buy crap from there all the time) so i have seen quite a few ottbs but i was more talking out in the usa in general.
@horseluvr2524 OMG YOU FOUND IT! Poor odie gets to do more then dressage!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

There are some of those horses bred on this side of the Ocean, but everyone breeds what type of horse they like, and what disciplines they excel in, that tghe person wishes to take part in.
The ones I have seen, as a breeder showed some at an open show I also attended, were 'hot', and thus not ahorse most people would enjoy using for recreational trail horses.
We don't have Bull fighting (not counting Mexico, but talking of the USA and Canada, ) thank God, so the type of horse proven to work cattle for the way our western way of life demands, evolved in the stock horses that we have today
Great horses fro Haute Ecole, dressage, bull fighting, but not the type of horse I or many others wish to ride, esp for the tasks we do with them!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Bondre said:


> Andalusians were bred for working livestock over here - they are used as stock horses on the farms that breed fighting bulls. They have to be brave, powerful and obedient. Only a tiny percentage are actually used in bull-fighting, and _rejoneo_ (bull-fighting from horseback) is a very specialised art.
> 
> 
> (Internet photo)
> ...


Now w, when I look at that picture, tight rein contact and compare to the type of horse I like as a working cowhorse, no comparison!
Far as bull fighting horses being 'brave', look up some of the head gear used on those horses, like the Serieta. Harsh equipment like that is used, because that sport demands unquestioning obedience
Nope, rather watch a good cutting horse, reading that cow, working that cow on his own, or a working cowhorse taking a cow down the fence


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

One also has to remember, fart as the price of a horse, or any animal for that matter, first comes breeder;s market, with that animal being rare, thus demanding a high price, simply through the age old rule of supply and demand
This si when to get into any breed, horses included, and then to get out, once that market becomes flooded, or the commercial end of it is not developed.
Friesens, Gypsy Vanniers, and these Spanish horses have ridden that tide, on this side of the Ocean, even minis at one point.
Heck, I can re call when a mini, because it was rare, demanded prices of $15,000 and up. About 15 years later,lucky if those same minis brought 200 dollars!
Good non equine examples, are ostrich and Boer goats in Canada. When the former were first introduced, thus creating a breeder's market, those birds sold for around $50,000
The commercial market failed to develop, with a few restaurants giving it a go. Those bird then brought $50 , tops!
The Boer goats were even a 'shorter flash in the pan"
Heck, when stock horses were first sent to Europe, they were rare there, and sold for way , way more money then they did over here.
Likewise, many Warmbloods brought over from Europe, sold for way bigger bucks here. Good old law of supply and demand, far as price.
Those serious in any sport, are going to ride horses that have excelled in their event of interest.


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## Regula (Jan 23, 2012)

There are plenty of people who breed and import Iberian horses in North America. California seems to be a center. I believe Dominique Barbier and his wife import Lusitanos mostly from Brazil. 
There even is the "North American version" of the Iberian horse, the Azteca, which supposedly is the national horse of Mexico (although I never understood if an Azteca is just a cross btw an Iberian horse and a QH/Paint, or if they are their own breed).

Like all breeds, they have their pros and cons. Of course they are pretty with their long manes, and the "uprightness" lends itself to natural collection and self-carriage. On the flip side, they tend to go behind the vertical and get stiff through the back. Often they will stride short with a disengaged back. When you look at the foundation of the classical dressage pyramid (rhythm, relaxation, connection), it is actually much easier to achieve a rhythmic, relaxed, swinging gait with a Warmblood type horse.


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## jamesqf (Oct 5, 2009)

You know, I think it might be a lot like pickup trucks. Some people pay umpteen thousand for a shiny new pickup with fancy wheels, running boards, bull bars and such, wash & wax it every weekend and never, ever go off paved roads. Others of us buy a well-used Toyota for cheap, don't fuss about loads of hay, firewood, or manure, and the closest we get to washing it is fording the occasional stream.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

KigerQueen said:


> OMG YOU FOUND IT! Poor odie gets to do more then dressage!


 @KigerQueen

YES! And they are active! For some reason I was having a brain lapse and thought it was 2017?? ... what the heck? Its 2016! They have shows and clinics this month.

My husband and I have plans to hit the road with my mare, so I probably won't be able to participate in the shows. However, I can gear my training program towards this and if the opportunity comes up, be able to participate! That would be amazing!
I love dressage and train dressage but I can't show dressage because I'm just not perfectionist enough about circles. The whole '20m circle' and other extremely precise movements wig me out... give me an obstacle to maneuver!


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Now w, when I look at that picture, tight rein contact and compare to the type of horse I like as a working cowhorse, no comparison!


I personally don't like _doma vaquera_ but I have no doubt that it is just as fine an art as any form of horse training. Definitely poles apart from how western cow horses are trained. I don't know how much of this difference in training style is due to the demands of their working situation and how much is due to breed characteristics. No doubt that QHs and the Iberian breeds are very different conformationally and in character too. 



Smilie said:


> Far as bull fighting horses being 'brave', look up some of the head gear used on those horses, like the Serieta. Harsh equipment like that is used, because that sport demands unquestioning obedience


Don't think you can doubt their bravery, as using harsh headgear isn't going to make a scared horse any braver lol. Actually feeling trapped by a big bit will probably make a nervous horse more scared. The _serreta _ is indeed a controversial tool, and no, I certainly wouldn't use one, but they are commonly used here for starting young horses. Note that it is a training tool and is NEVER used together with a bit (our at least, not by anyone who knows how to use it). _Serretas_ are mostly used with a lunging cavesson and are used to teach a young horse to respond correctly to pressure before starting them with a bit. The traditional vaquero bits are pretty harsh too, with enormous ports, though that is changing in modern _doma vaquera_. 

I think as with everything you put on the end of a horse's reins, the harshness is in the rider's hands. No doubt that a big vaquero bit or a _serreta_ can do a lot of damage in the wrong hands, but the same could be said of some western curbs.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

trailhorserider said:


> They don't look bouncy to me at all, more like a rocking horse. I hate the head-hanging-low of the WP horses, but I know some QH's are naturally that way. *However, I think they could move more like a Lusitano if they were ridden that way*.


Not really. I have a foundation bred QH and I had my SIL who was training for Olympic Dressage before she had kids get on him to see what she could do with him (wanted to know if it was him or me). 

She concluded fairly quickly, he just wasn't built to move like a dressage horse. Get him roping, cutting (though he is a bit tall for that) or spinning and he moves with fluid grace, without wasted movement. It is who he was made to be. 

A truck is a truck and a car is a car. They are built to do certain things. Nothing wrong with either as long as they get the job done that you need them to do.


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Harsh equipment like that is used, because that sport demands unquestioning obedience


At least in the Modern American Bridle horse riding in a spade (which takes its roots from the Iberian Peninsula), it doesn't demand obedience, it requires willingness. There is a difference. 

The "harsh" equipment is used only after five or more years of training in other less harsh equipment like a bitless bosal, or Bosal/snaffle. It is not a quick training process, you don't back a bridle horse in four hours or even four days. 

Only after the willingness is created in the horse, _consistently proven_ in a horse (not all horses or riders qualify) over a period of years, that the horse is then ready to go to the spade. 

The argument against the spade bit is very similar one to the bitless efficianatos that claim all bits, including a snaffle are cruel. It is the training or lack there of that gives the rider compliance or not, the bit is only a tool to refine communication, not demand obedience through punishment.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I can only speak for the ones our friend/boarder had which were very good examples of the breed type - but those horses were extremely bold with no sign of a 'spooky' temperament at all, it was hard to imagine that anything would worry them. They do have natural elevation but they're really smooth to ride and not such a 'big action' as the Friesian. They're smart horses too, well able to think for themselves in a situation but a horse that's been bred for the bullring has to also be totally in tune with its rider and always listening for direction or its going to fail - that's something that only comes from a horse that's a willing participant and not from a horse that's been forced into submission
The Lusitano that the friend rescued from Portugal was a lovely natured horse, trusting and easy to handle so while the owners might have had a totally practical attitude towards euthanizing the horse after it had been seriously injured the horse showed no signs that it had ever been treated anything but kindly and considerately.


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## jimmyp (Sep 5, 2013)

jaydee said:


> The Lusitano that the friend rescued from Portugal was a lovely natured horse, trusting and easy to handle *so while the owners might have had a totally practical attitude towards euthanizing the horse after it had been seriously injured the horse showed no signs that it had ever been treated anything but kindly and considerately*.



I am not calling you out so don't take it that way......

It seems like this country is very quick to link euthanasia, with poor treatment or poor ownership. It amazes me how many people have come down on me over the years for putting down working stock that was unable to perform to an acceptable level after an injury, rather than feeding it out. 

Jim


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Apologies as going off track here
No I don't take it the wrong way at all Jimmyp


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

I love the posts in this thread. Thank you @trailhorserider for reminding me of this breed.

They are beautiful horses and look very well built. 

Quarter Horses have the distinct advantage that they are fast, very fast in short distance sprints. There really isn't a better breed for Western performance events. I think there is probably a three way tie between Quarter Horses - Arabians and Andalusians for doing actual work with cattle. Quarter Horses have another performance advantage in that many modern horses are on the shorter and stockier side, good things if you need to rope something or do quick direction changes. In the timed Rodeo events the "Score", or how fast the horse gets up to full speed is huge. A finished roping horse with a high speed index that can really blast out of the box under control is worth a ton of money, because people can win millions on a horse like that. 

The Lusitanos appear to have a higher set neck. I've never cared for the high head, chin tucked into the throatlatch look that many European style trainers seem to prefer. I didn't see a bad example of that in your videos though. I'm not convinced that they are any more collected than any other properly trained and ridden horse. Collection is really in the back which is hard to see, but these horses are clearly well trained and ridden by good riders. 

Some of that more beautiful movement is trained, or at least I believe it to be. One of my favorites that I wish we American Cowboy types appreciated more is the slow dancing trot. It is beautiful and although I've never sat it I bet it is nice to ride too.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

This is an eye opening video - seems that Portugal has as much of a problem with over breeding and abandoned unwanted surplus horses now that other countries do


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

^^ Excellent video!


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

Hi all!! 
I'm from Portugal, homeland of the Lusitano horse 

This breed is somehow versatile, they make good cattle horses and excel at work equitation. They're also good at dressage, bullfight (wich I hate btw), and are starting to appear in showjumping as well. They have different lines and the ones most oftenly seen advertised outside Portugal relate more to the "less bony" type, as Zexious' ads show. These are the kind of Lusitanos that could be used for jumping here. I prefer the baroque, traditional Lusitano.

They can be spunky horses and intimidating, but are good minded animals and very smart and willing. They are also brave and not easily scared, it is not rare to see little children riding them around (maybe there's some in the videos posted, I didn't see them, sorry), of course it all depends on their training level, but any horse with a bad training can be a brat... Anyway not my favourite breed.

It is a fact that you don't see much Lusitanos used only for trailriding, but maybe it is related to the fact that they are so expensive and therefore used for other purposes. They are not famous for endurance and resistance anyway. But they're a blast to ride (tried BO's Ortigão Costa's lineage stallion once, oh my, what a trot!! ) 

The national horse fair in Golegã is a must go!! I missed last one as my mare had a problem in her hoof, but I go there every year. BO stays there for the whole week with his driving horses. It's very unique, there's always horse related events happenning, you see all kinds of horses there, thousands of them,and people take them everywhere, including inside the bars 
A horse that goes to Golegã comes back bomb proof 
You see no kicking, no rearing, and as mentioned lots of children riding their reliable mounts. All goes well.

Bondre, I've seen several horses being ridden with a sarreta and a bit... Never used it, I ride in a snaffle, but it is actually very common here. 

Btw the name of the fur behind the portuguese saddle is xairel 

If I knew how I would post pics... Still a bit lost on new horseforum...


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

Lusitano's, steady trail mounts and beautiful. Well, it won't let me download. Hmmm.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

trying again All but one keeps telling me invalid file for some reason


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

I'd never heard of this breed before now, and I don't usually like white horses much.

However, I have fallen in LOVE with these guys:









Solid muscle









Super graceful.

The Buckskins and Blacks are really stunning too.

Also what you were saying is awesome @TuyaGirl. I would love to meet one of these horses in person, and if I could afford one and he/she was steady I would just use it for a trail horse (unless I learned to compete in something).

As far as posting pictures goes there's a little picture icon on the top of the posting box. Click that and you can put in a link. Thanks for enlightening those of us who have no opportunity to meet these amazing horses!


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## Emoore (Sep 14, 2015)

They're not that rare in the Latino riding community. I know a few people of Hispanic/Latino descent who own Andalusians and Aztecas which are highly trained bridle horses. They have that level of collection and self-carriage.

Not saying Anglos can't or don't, of course; it's just that the people I happen to know who own that type of horse, see it as part of their Latino heritage.


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> I would love to meet one of these horses in person, and if I could afford one and he/she was steady I would just use it for a trail horse (unless I learned to compete in something)


Yes, they make good trail horses. Where I board my mare there is a very typical horse that has about 90% Lusitano blood, and is one of the best trail horses there, children safe.
BO is a horse trader and a while ago he bought an ex-bullfight horse, Tentilhão, a 15 year old stallion. He was also very good on trails, very well mannered, just a tad noisy  He didn't stay long, was sold again.

In here we do have many organized trail rides in summer, where the riders dress their traditional outfits (as the ones seen in the videos) and like to show their best mounts, but appart from these gatherings you actually don't see many Lusitanos used exclusively for trail rides. The best are just too expensive and the recreational riders like me use cross breeds. 

Most of our horses are cross breeds with Lusitano blood, especially arabians, you rarely find pure thoroughbreds, warmbloods or draft breeds for example. I'm not even going to mention apaloosas or paints. These are quite expensive, maybe because they are rare and their markings unusual around here.

Oh, and most riders are man. I was born in the wrong country


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

TuyaGirl said:


> Yes, they make good trail horses. Where I board my mare there is a very typical horse that has about 90% Lusitano blood, and is one of the best trail horses there, children safe.
> BO is a horse trader and a while ago he bought an ex-bullfight horse, Tentilhão, a 15 year old stallion. He was also very good on trails, very well mannered, just a tad noisy  He didn't stay long, was sold again.
> 
> Most of our horses are cross breeds with Lusitano blood, especially arabians, you rarely find pure thoroughbreds, warmbloods or draft breeds for example. I'm not even going to mention apaloosas or paints. These are quite expensive, maybe because they are rare and their markings unusual around here.
> ...


I think it's really cool that they're so common because they seem incredible. I would be so excited to meet one of them and maybe even be able to ride one, just because they're so cool to me. And see here it's the opposite; Lusitanos are rare, but Thoroughbreds, Drafts, Paints, and Appaloosas are very common. In fact the gelding I ride is a Paint, and my friend that owns him also owns several Appaloosas and a couple other horses, one of which is and OTTB. Do you like the patterned horses? If so I could send you some pictures of the paint gelding. (He's the one in my profile picture).

I don't see anything wrong with crossbreeds, and in fact I feel like those sometimes make the best horses. It's just interesting that they are often mixed with the Lusitano blood, when I've never even seen one except for pictures and those videos. I suppose that's the difference in the two areas and cultures. What breeding is your mare?

I also understand the not wanting to buy a horse that expensive just to trail ride. I just thought it might be interesting to have one as a trail horse just because of how well mannered they seem to be. It seems like they'd be less of a listener and more of a partner; that's a good quality for me. See the one I ride was only ever bought for trail riding as far as we know (he's a rescue), so that's what I would likely be looking for because I've never competed.

Lol, I get the woman thing. It took a long time before the women got put on a playing field for horse riding here too. It use to be improper for a woman to ride anything but sidesaddle behind a man! :icon_rolleyes:


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

@BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 -- Wow, gorgeous pics!
One thing's for sure, the breed is nice to look at <3


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

@Zexious

These three really caught my eye too:




























The second one may be an Andalusian, but either way he's stunning . You're right, they're beautiful. Like I said, I've fallen in love with the breed (Lol, it'll always be just look, no touch most likely though.)


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^A great way to get exposure to more 'exotic' breeds is through horse expos c: That was the first place I ever rode a Peruvian Paso, for example. Random, right? xD


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

That sounds very interesting @Zexious. I might have to check into that.

Thanks for telling me about that!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> I'd never heard of this breed before now, and I don't usually like white horses much.
> 
> However, I have fallen in LOVE with these guys:
> 
> ...


These horses mostly carry the greying gene, thus are not truly white
I guess you have not spent twice as long at least, in a wash rack, washing a white horse, before a show! Give me a solid colored horse anytime!
Charlie is an Appaloosa, who has the greying gene, thus is white. She is also 16.1 hh. When she is being 'high', my husband calls her my Lipizzaner, LOl!








Sorry, don't have a picture of her at the moment, bucking and doing Airs above ground in the snow, but she can be that animated, but that is not what counts with me, as I want a sensible sane horse to ride. That means, not a horse, like many here, who always lunge that horse first, before riding!
These horses are good for SOME people, but think again, if you want them as an average fun horse to ride!


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Smilie said:


> These horses mostly carry the greying gene, thus are not truly white
> I guess you have not spent twice as long at least, in a wash rack, washing a white horse, before a show! Give me a solid colored horse anytime!
> Charlie is an Appaloosa, who has the greying gene, thus is white. She is also 16.1 hh. When she is being 'high', my husband calls her my Lipizzaner, LOl!
> 
> ...


Your horse is pretty. I wasn't being technical, they just look white so I said that just because I was only commenting about liking their look. A friend of mine has a QH that looks white as well (although right now he's green, lol), but I don't know what he would otherwise be because he's definitely white now. Are there truly white horses? I think there are since I've seen white foals, but I could be wrong.

As for personality, I like a level headed horse that has its quirks. They're reliable but they keep things interesting! Unfortunately I do not know of any way to upload photos from your computer (without a link), so I can't get pics of mr. reliable gelding on here. Ugh...


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

TuyaGirl said:


> Btw the name of the fur behind the portuguese saddle is xairel


Thank you! Now that I know what it's called and I looked it up and it's purpose...........to keep sweat and dust off the rider's jacket!


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## alsosusieq2 (Apr 30, 2016)

I've never been a fan of Lusitanos. There are so many horses here in the States that we don't need any more. I don't care for the Roman nose etc. Crosses would be really a bad idea. Just my opinion. There's different different tastes and none are better. Why would we need these when there are horses being rescued right and left anyway.


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> @Zexious
> 
> These three really caught my eye too:
> 
> ...


I'll take all three of these. Just send them here to me in Pilot Point, TX. Thanks!


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## jgnmoose (May 27, 2015)

So I've been doing some reading and there is some deep history with this breed.

You could technically say that Andalusian and Lusitano horses are the same breed. You could also make a strong technical argument that they are different, the Spanish and Portuguese would. 

The history of these bloodlines is very interesting. The original question is why don't we breed horses like this in the States. In a way we do, the Andalusian. These horses are not common anywhere though, apparently even in Spain and Portugal. Interesting stuff.


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

@BlindHorseEnthusiast4582
Actually you don't see pure Lusitanos every day, most our horses are cross breeds, they are national but still expensive for most riders. My mare is a TbXArabian, so when I rode the Ortigao Costa stallion all I could see was an enormous neck in front of me  He is black, most Lusitanos are grey, and cremellos are starting to be a fashion colour around here.

I really like horses with patterns, maybe because it is uncommom still. 

Pictures only in full version? Can't send from here, so if you want google coudelaria ortigao costa and check the images. It is one of the most famous Lusitano breeders, famous for his black horses. I love black horses, friesians are one of my favourite breeds


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

TuyaGirl said:


>  google *coudelaria ortigao costa* and check the images. It is one of the most famous Lusitano breeders, famous for his black horses. I love black horses, friesians are one of my favourite breeds


I did. Lots of good looking horses and country. Interesting.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

TuyaGirl said:


> @BlindHorseEnthusiast4582
> Actually you don't see pure Lusitanos every day, most our horses are cross breeds, they are national but still expensive for most riders. My mare is a TbXArabian, so when I rode the Ortigao Costa stallion all I could see was an enormous neck in front of me  He is black, most Lusitanos are grey, and cremellos are starting to be a fashion colour around here.
> 
> I really like horses with patterns, maybe because it is uncommom still.
> ...



Oh okay, I misunderstood what you were saying.  That sounds like it'd be a lot of fun to ride him.

Cool, what color is her coat and does she have markings? (Lol, sorry, I'm nosy about horses.) Those I looked up are beautiful. A friend of mine owns a FresianxQH and he looks a lot like this:









The Paint I ride is a Tobiano. His pattern looks something like this:


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

@boots Thank you 
@BlindHorseEnthusiast4582
Very good looking horses!! A black horse always catches my eye, and horses with patterns do too. There are really good cross breeds out there, I actually prefer them in many ways. 
Hope pics work, sorry not a Lusitano horse, so a bit off topic, but here's my mare


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

@BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 -- There are white horses--they are born this way and usually have pink skin. 
It's caused by a lethal dominant gene.


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> I can't afford a high-end anything. My horse budget is around $2000. (And I paid that for a Mustang because he was perfect for me. My last bargain horse was $500.)
> 
> It's not that I am looking to buy one. I just don't know why we don't have more of them over here. Or why we don't breed horses with these characteristics. Maybe TinyLiny is right, they are just too sensitive? Are they more sensitive or tempermental than Arabians? Because people like to talk poorly about Arabians and I owned two that were fabulous trail horses. My very first horse was an Arabian. He was more QH-like in disposition though. :wink:


I have put quite a bit of research into the Andalusian and Lusitano breeds because I was interested in them.

Lusitanos are sensitive, almost seeming to know what their rider is thinking. We know that this is not technically true but that is how they are described. I don't necessarily consider this a bad thing and I don't really care for thick skinned horses anyway.
They are described as being bold and level headed. They are known as powerful horses noted for their intelligence and willing nature. So much so, that you have to be careful not to take advantage of them.
Their gaits are agile and elevated and generally comfortable to ride

Andalusians are very similar cousins. It has been said that you take the Andy to church and the Lusitano to work

From what I've been reading on this thread, it seems that a lot of people think that they are hard to control when riding or handing them. I don't find this to be true


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

@boots Thank you 
@BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 
Very good looking horses!! Black horses always catch my eye, and horses with patterns do too  The first one is an interesting cross. 

I can't upload any picture, neither of my mare or the Lusitano black horse, I go advanced but pictures fail to upload... My mare is chesnut with white star and white markings on both back legs.


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

Sorry double post instead of edit... :-(


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

Zexious said:


> @BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 -- There are white horses--they are born this way and usually have pink skin.
> It's caused by a lethal dominant gene.


Not necessarily. You're thinking of LWOs foals, which are Lethal White Overos. This is when _frame_, which is a white gene that falls under the overo family, is present homozygously, or with two copies. It's not necessarily dominant, as the white patterns don't always express, even if they're present (dominant, in this case, referring to expressed versus not expressed, not that amount of expression).

You can also get true white horses through the KIT genes, of which maximum/dominant white is one.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

TuyaGirl said:


> @boots Thank you
> 
> @BlindHorseEnthusiast4582
> Very good looking horses!! Black horses always catch my eye, and horses with patterns do too  The first one is an interesting cross.
> ...


Yeah, I love black horses and paints. That's okay, I guess there's still bugs in this thing. I can get an idea of what he and your mare would look like. The woman who owns the paint gelding owns a QH that has that exact same coloring! She's chestnut with a star and back leg socks. 


@Zexious and @DraftyAiresMum Is this what you're talking about?


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

Actually white horses with pink skin have a variety of genetic origins. They remain rare -- most 'white' horses you are likely to see, including Iberian horses, will be gray.

More than you want to know about dominant white: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_white


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

@BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 , yes, that is a max white/dominant white horse. 

@Avna , when speaking of the true white horses (those with pink skin, not black/grey), we are speaking of the "dominant white" horses (which are no longer termed dominant white, as it is a variety of KIT genes that causing the maximum expression of the white. 

Colors that are often mistaken for max whites include greys that have gone white, cremellos, and perlinos (although the last one, not as much).


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

^Yup!  <3


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

LoriF said:


> I have put quite a bit of research into the Andalusian and Lusitano breeds because I was interested in them.
> From what I've been reading on this thread, it seems that a lot of people think that they are hard to control when riding or handing them. I don't find this to be true


I'm sure that the only people that would find them hard to control would be the type of riders that are only comfortable or safe on more docile easy going horses that march along steadily while they look at the scenery and relax. 
If you buy a highly trained one then they're going to be super sensitive to the cues because that's what they're supposed to be like so wouldn't be ideal for someone with 'busy' hands and legs or anyone more used to having to 'kick on'.
It is rather like buying a typical springer spaniel and expecting it to lie on the sofa all day or take gentle walks on a leash, the only time they settle into that lifestyle is when they're very old or very obese
If you buy a horse that's bred to be high energy and sensitive then no amount of 'training' is going to turn it into a beachside donkey


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## Avna (Jul 11, 2015)

DraftyAiresMum said:


> @BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 , yes, that is a max white/dominant white horse.
> 
> @Avna , when speaking of the true white horses (those with pink skin, not black/grey), we are speaking of the "dominant white" horses (which are no longer termed dominant white, as it is a variety of KIT genes that causing the maximum expression of the white.
> 
> Colors that are often mistaken for max whites include greys that have gone white, cremellos, and perlinos (although the last one, not as much).


Yes, the wiki link described something like fifteen separately occurring mutations of "dominant white" -- which is to distinguish it from the recessive white that happens with frame overo and which is associated with unviable foals. And as you point out there are other ways to get white coloration as well.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

LoriF said:


> I have put quite a bit of research into the Andalusian and Lusitano breeds because I was interested in them.
> 
> Lusitanos are sensitive, almost seeming to know what their rider is thinking. We know that this is not technically true but that is how they are described. I don't necessarily consider this a bad thing and I don't really care for thick skinned horses anyway.
> They are described as being bold and level headed. They are known as powerful horses noted for their intelligence and willing nature. So much so, that you have to be careful not to take advantage of them.
> ...


That's good to hear. I hear a lot of nay-sayers about Arabians and the ones I've ridden and been around have been fabulous. So I was suspecting the Lusitanos are similarly misunderstood. 

I find it hard to believe horses that are as well behaved and well trained as the Lusitanos in the videos would be difficult to handle. Energetic, yes. Flat out difficult? Maybe somewhere in the breed, but the ones I'm seeing in the videos look fabulously obedient. And a lot of them seem to be stallions. You don't see people in the USA bring out a bunch of stallions and put them on parade together like that. That has to say something about their disposition.

I don't see anything wrong with energy if the horse is safe. And they don't look bouncy to me, more like a rocking horse. 

I did find it interesting that there seem to be a lot of cremellos and perlinos in the breed. I actually prefer gray if I'm going for a "white" horse, but the creme gene horses do have a unique look and I'm sure they appeal to a lot of people. Funny you don't see many palominos. I guess that's because chestnut is not very common.


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

Because they seem to prefer riding stallions in Portugal (is that actually the case?) then does that mean they don't ride the mares?

I ask because it seems someone told me that was the case in South America (or maybe it was Mexico). Everyone wants to ride a stallion with a lot of "brio," so mares are pretty much only used for breeding and not well-respected. 

Is this generally true in Portugal and Spain I wonder?


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

I don't think that it's the case that the mares are not respected. Actually mare lines are coveted. I don't live in Portugal so I'm not 100% sure, but I think that it is a tradition thing to ride the stallions and the mares are broodies for the most part. Some mares are ridden though.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

LoriF said:


> I don't live in Portugal so I'm not 100% sure, but I think that it is a tradition thing to ride the stallions and the mares are broodies for the most part. Some mares are ridden though.


Yes, it's a whole different viewpoint here. I'm in Spain rather than Portugal, you see relatively a lot of stallions being ridden, and more geldings than mares. Horse people round here say that the mares are more difficult, so maybe they prefer the male horses because they're seen as being more obedient? The ladies are so complicated lol! 

When someone asks what I have, they are typically surprised when I say two mares. "And you don't breed them?"! It's a bit odd to have two mares and not breed either one of them.


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

^^^ This 

You couldn't have explained it better, Bondre 

I own a mare that people keep asking why I won't breed. Nope, not going to happen, just because she is a mare does not mean I bought her with that purpose. 

This horses are very willing creatures and always try to please their rider. Maybe I don't have enough experience to tell the oposite, but never saw anything that made me doubt it.

Cremellos are becoming a fashion colour around here, can't remember who mentioned the Palominos, but yeah, they are so much prettier to me. Vasco Godinho won the european work equitation championship in Germany yesterday (yay!!) with Trigo, a gorgeous Palomino.

BO has 5 Palominos, 2 mares, 1 stallion and 2 geldings, all crossed breed. They always catch the eye anyway


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

So do people in Spain and Portugal still ride mostly stallions or are they starting to lean more to geldings these days?


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

@LoriF in my experience there's 2 different situations: if cross breeds most of them are geldings. If pure Lusitanos most people keep them as stallions, more valuable.

Where I board my mare there are only 3 stallions, 6 geldings and 11 mares. One of the stallions is a pure Lusitano, and the other 2 owe it to their colour, one is a cremello and the other a palomino. Both pass their colour to the foals (hope you understand), but BO definitely prefers geldings/mares. A sign of change, maybe


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

@TuyaGirl I have not actually ridden a stallion, but I believe it'd be very pleasurable as long as they're well behaved, as these horses are suppose to be. 

Between the other two I prefer geldings, but definitely admire stallions. I know your horse is a mare, but do you ever ride any of the stallions there? 

Maybe things are changing if mares and geldings are more popular. If so, we can appreciate the gorgeous horse for what they are, regardless of gender!


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## LoriF (Apr 3, 2015)

trailhorserider said:


> That's good to hear. I hear a lot of nay-sayers about Arabians and the ones I've ridden and been around have been fabulous. So I was suspecting the Lusitanos are similarly misunderstood.


Yes, I have to laugh sometimes. I have a friend who thinks arabians are stupid and crazy. One of her QH's is a nut job. She was just given an arab cross and she's the sweetest thing alive. She wouldn't hurt a fly, even accidentally.



trailhorserider said:


> I did find it interesting that there seem to be a lot of cremellos and perlinos in the breed. I actually prefer gray if I'm going for a "white" horse, but the creme gene horses do have a unique look and I'm sure they appeal to a lot of people. Funny you don't see many palominos. I guess that's because chestnut is not very common.


I've seen a couple of absolutely gorgeous chestnut Lusitanos


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

@LoriF

Like this?










This one is absolutely gorgeous. I ride a paint but am now falling in love with solid colored horses like these!! 0_0


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

trailhorserider said:


> That's good to hear. I hear a lot of nay-sayers about Arabians and the ones I've ridden and been around have been fabulous. So I was suspecting the Lusitanos are similarly misunderstood.
> 
> I find it hard to believe horses that are as well behaved and well trained as the Lusitanos in the videos would be difficult to handle. Energetic, yes. Flat out difficult? Maybe somewhere in the breed, but the ones I'm seeing in the videos look fabulously obedient. And a lot of them seem to be stallions. You don't see people in the USA bring out a bunch of stallions and put them on parade together like that. That has to say something about their disposition.


 Again - I can only speak from the few that I've had dealings with and temperaments can differ a lot even within a breed that's been kept relatively pure for a long time but they seemed very calm and with good self control by nature - which is what you'd expect from a horse that was bred for partly bull fighting. As for obedience - they absolutely have to have that high on their list too but I would imagine that like Arabians and too a certain extent TB's they don't respond well to a training method based on 'bullying' a horse into submission, breaking the spirit but one focused on respect and willingness - respect doesn't come out of fear/heavy handed tactics
The riding part depends on how well the horse is trained - but any horse that's been trained to respond immediately to light cues is going to be difficult for a rider that doesn't know how to use those cues the right way


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

@BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 I only rode the black stallion once. I don't usually ride with double reins and I'm used to riding with a snaffle instead of a bit, so I was not confortable. Took me several laps to the arena to get a canter, while he kept extending his trot to a point where in a corner (shame on me) I just lost completely my balance and fell. The stirrups were too long for me and I'm too used to my mare's trot. He immediately stopped and waited for me to go back up  Once the stirrups were my size he was very confortable to ride, all I can say is there I felt an enormous power below me. Controlled power.
He is now being used for driving, as his owner is having knee problems and is not riding much anymore. The other two stallions are not pure Lusitanos.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

> I don't usually ride with double reins and I'm used to riding with a snaffle instead of a bit, so I was not confortable.


Yeah, I've only ridden in a bit that wasn't a snaffle once. That was on a very gentle Palomino gelding that was pretty much ridden through your seat. :wink:
I don't ride with a bit at all now actually. Me and the gelding have been going bit-less. (makes both of us much happier.)

Do you mean you normally ride with a split reign? If not what do you mean by double reign? (I'm not completely familiar with all the terminology yet). If you'd rather just let somebody else explain that I'm good, that's not the conversation. 



> I just lost completely my balance and fell. The stirrups were too long for me and I'm too used to my mare's trot. He immediately stopped and waited for me to go back up


I get that! I'm use to the paint gelding's SUPER super smooth trot and canter. I can also twist around any way on him without any worry of falling off because I'm so comfortable there. When I was riding the palomino he had such a huge trot I almost fell off and had to keep at a walk on him. I ride bareback and normally have no problems, but that time I did. You shouldn't be ashamed, it happens sometimes.  (I also learned from that the fact that I need to practice trotting on more different horses.) Regardless the stopping immediately is a sure sign that you have a really nice horse.



> all I can say is there I felt an enormous power below me. Controlled power


And that ^ is the thing I believe I'd love the most about riding a stallion. I've always enjoyed riding larger and stronger horses (they've always been geldings). There's something about working and being partners with something so powerful that I just love. The paint is one of the largest horses I've ridden and even though he is so docile and calm, I can still feel how strong he is just by running my hands over him. When we're cantering or galloping I feel like I'm flying. Is your mare like that?


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

@BlindHorseEnthusiast4582
Maybe I used the wrong term, the horse is ridden with 2 reins, each one attached to the bit at different places. Sorry my english fails sometimes :-(

Yeah, I should ride different horses more oftenly. I like bigger horses as you do, but actually my mare is pretty small. Her trot is really strong, and covers a lot of ground for her size, so when I just hop on bareback I don't ride faster than a walk 
She is really fast so yes, at gallop it feels like flying. Awesome feeling 

(sorry off topic)


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

@TuyaGirl ;
If there are two reigns attached to each side of the bit like this, I believe it's a double reign. 








If there's one reign on each side but they aren't connected it's split reigns. I guess when they are connected it's a single reign; not sure about the name for that one, but it's what I ride with. No worries about your English, lol sometimes I can't speak right either and It's my only language.  

I really should too, especially since I want to start riding a probably 16+ hand (not sure) Thoroughbred. I have no doubt her trot is really big, and I want to trot that Palomino without falling off! 

I just don't feel right on smaller horses for some reason. Lol, maybe we WANT to have further the fall if we do. :rofl:

It's cool that she can cover so much ground. I started off riding bareback and I just don't like saddles much. The first time I cantered was bareback, and I don't feel as secure on most horses with a saddle. I feel perched too high above the horse and like I can't properly get a feel for them. I can keep a stronger connection with the horse and stay a step ahead of what they're going to do and correct them before isomething gets out of hand. I guess I'm more comfortable and he seems to like it better too. We also don't use a bit. Since you use a snaffle, have you ever tried her bit-less? Just curious. We rode in a snaffle and he likes no bit better.

See everybody had chalked 'my' gelding as being lazy, and even though he's really mellow, he's super willing to go faster as long as he has enough room to move around. I don't know if anybody else has cantered/galloped him like that, because nobody could believe it when I told them! 

I suppose your own horse can surprise you more than you thought possible; kind of like your little mare having such a big stride!

(Lol, I know we're really off topic. Maybe if we want to keep it up we should discuss through PM instead of filling up the forum post about a breed. ^^)


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

@BlindHorseEnthusiast4582
FYI, double reins are commonly used in both _vaquero_ and English riding, whereas split reins are western equipment. So I doubt Tuyagirl will have come across split reins before - I'm European too and I'd never heard of them before joining this forum. 

And please, they're reins, not reigns! It's a big bugbear of mine when people misspell common horse terms - though you're not the only one who confuses these two words.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

@Bondre Okay, I was not sure which type Tuyagirl would be familiar with, and I was also asking about them while just putting what I thought they were. I knew split reins were a Western things, but some people use them for other things (such as trail riding). 

I know they are reins instead of reigns, and I apologize. Apparently I was more tired yesterday than I realized when I posted this, lol. I do not typically get the two words confused, and it actually annoys me too. Spelling is also one of my pet peeves, so I get where you're coming from. If I ever do write the wrong version of the word and post it, that is because I didn't notice the misspelling.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I'd never heard of split reins before I came to the US
As a British english speaking person I understood riding with '2 reins' as meaning the same thing as riding with 'double' reins as in a 'double bridle with two bits and a set of reins for each bit
No wonder things get confusing!!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> Again - I can only speak from the few that I've had dealings with and temperaments can differ a lot even within a breed that's been kept relatively pure for a long time but they seemed very calm and with good self control by nature - which is what you'd expect from a horse that was bred for partly bull fighting. As for obedience - they absolutely have to have that high on their list too but I would imagine that like Arabians and too a certain extent TB's they don't respond well to a training method based on 'bullying' a horse into submission, breaking the spirit but one focused on respect and willingness - respect doesn't come out of fear/heavy handed tactics
> The riding part depends on how well the horse is trained - but any horse that's been trained to respond immediately to light cues is going to be difficult for a rider that doesn't know how to use those cues the right way


That goes for any well trained horse-try riding a top reiner , cutting horse or working cowhorse-far as that highly trained, light horse, that is 'too trained for a beginning or even intermediate rider!
It is how they 'come down' when pitched slack, that also counts. I want a trail horse that moves out, on a loose rein, as I have ridden the type that stays 'on the muscle, and when you come off a mountain, very steep and tricky trail, you want sensibility, not brio
I have ridden stallions, and yes, those stallions are ridden and trained by professionals, and that is why many stallions are so well broke, BUT does not mean that the average person is going to ride those stallions, or handle them, in such a manner that they are never 'studdy'
Far as stallions being preferred to be ridden in those countries, I was always told it was a'macho thing', as 'real men don't ride mares!
I am not trying to generalize a,s there always are individuals in any breed, BUt the Andalusian I have seen, at local shows were 'hot', needing long, long, long warm ups, before they could show in a class
That breeder also crossed their Andalusian stud to some AQHA mares, and that resulted in a very nice sensible cross, with that horse winning in many events, then going on to do well well in large extreme trail competitions
Don't get me wrong, there are events you want that animation, but if those horses were great family type using horses , you would see more of them out there, versus mainly show ridden
NRHA, NCHA , ect, are open to all breeds, but you see these horses in the English disciplines, like dressage, and people in any upper discipline, be it jumping dressage, working cowhorse, endurance riding, ride the type of horse that has proven to excel in those events They also breed the horses that excel in their given event,a lthough, of course, there are always other breeds that show in those events at some level
So, decide what you want to do with a horse, and base what you want to ride, on that, versus romantic type black or white stallion fixation.
If you want to ride in dressage or try bull fighting, then by all means, get one of those Iberian horses.
On the other hand,if you wish to do serious competitive riding, get an Arabian. If you wish to do extreme type cowboy trail chellenges, reining, cutting, working cowhorse, get a working bred stock horse
Why don't we all breed those horses?? Simply because we all don't want to ride one of them


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

jaydee said:


> I'd never heard of split reins before I came to the US
> As a British english speaking person I understood riding with '2 reins' as meaning the same thing as riding with 'double' reins as in a 'double bridle with two bits and a set of reins for each bit
> No wonder things get confusing!!



With split reins, you talk of riding one handed , or two handed, not riding with two reins! It is the number of hands you have on those split reins!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Not sure about Bondre's point Smilie - but from my perspective I'm not talking about 'hands on reins' but actual split reins - we don't have split reins in the UK - though we quite often ride one handed


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 said:


> ...I started off riding bareback and I just don't like saddles much. The first time I cantered was bareback, and I don't feel as secure on most horses with a saddle...


Off topic, but adding sheepskin to my saddle has made it very easy to feel the horse, since I don't slide in the saddle. I only rode bareback a couple of times about 4 years ago, but maybe it is the same - the hair keeps one in place and lets you feel the back's motion? Walk to canter transitions are a piece of cake with this, and a canter is effortless on my part - just sit there and go with the horse. Just an off-topic thought!








​


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

Smilie said:


> With split reins, you talk of riding one handed , or two handed, not riding with two reins! It is the number of hands you have on those split reins!


Now we're getting really confused lol. Split reins only came up because BlindHorseEnthuaiast thought riding with two reins referred to split reins rather than a double bridle or pelham. Jaydee and I have merely tried to clarify the issue. No-one has been talking about how many hands on reins as I think we all know that that is nothing to do with any of this. 

Although now you mention it, riding with two reins one-handed - that's a real handful. You get short of fingers as separators.


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## BlindHorseEnthusiast4582 (Apr 11, 2016)

Bondre said:


> Now we're getting really confused lol. Split reins only came up because BlindHorseEnthuaiast thought riding with two reins referred to split reins rather than a double bridle or pelham.


Lol, I confused you too apparently.

I didn't think a double bridle was the same as a split rein. The double bridle or double reins is what I was referring to with the picture I posted. I know split reins are two single reins, one attached to each side of the bridle, that do not meet in the middle. The long ones I have are actually splits, but I tie them together to form a single because I don't like the two individual reins to keep up with.


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## Brynne (Nov 27, 2014)

Great topic!

I looooove Lusitanos and Andalusians. My new filly is 1/4 Andalusian (I know, not much, but it's in there!).

These are photos of her grandsire, I just love him <3 

(photos belong to whoever took them!)























































He is described as being the sweetest, gentlest horse.

Oh and this is another imported Lusitano breeder in CA...he does "bloodless bullfighting". The bulls horns are wrapped and the bull has velcro across the shoulders so the "spear" is just velcro as well. Seems like a very good alternative to the real thing which is of course just awful! 

COSTASLUSITANOS.COM


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

Bondre said:


> Although now you mention it, riding with two reins one-handed - that's a real handful. You get short of fingers as separators.


I think a lot of the technique those horses are ridden with have less to do with the reins and more to do with the leg and seat.


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## Bondre (Jun 14, 2013)

^^^ When I said two reins, I meant a double bridle. And the fistful I referred to looks something like this:



Or this:


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## Reiningcatsanddogs (Oct 9, 2014)

I think of this:

Two handed: http://www.cowboydressage.com/images/pages/competition/vaquero/VaqueroGear_clip_image004.jpg

Somewhat one handed; where by the left does the steering and the right manages slack

http://www.cowboydressage.com/images/pages/competition/vaquero/VaqueroGear_clip_image008.jpg

But by the time they get to that stage they are already very well trained to the seat and leg. The final stage is straight up in the spade with a single rein like Buck was riding.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

The Lusitano horse in Portugal that's aimed at more classical riding is ridden in a double bridle eventually (double rein) but started in a snaffle (single rein) or they're ridden in a curb bit with a single rein for higher level 'one handed' work


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

@Brynne nice looking horse! 
In here we bull's horns are wrapped too, but we don't use the velcro to protect him :-( That's a really good idea for the sake of the animal. I hate bullfights.

@jaydee just out of curiosity, most, if not all the horses ridden by Luis Valença in the portuguese equestrian school are from the breed Alter Real, Lusitano based but slightly different.


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## TuyaGirl (Mar 14, 2014)

^^^ And finally I got to attach the pictures of the Lusitano stallion I tried!!!


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## alsosusieq2 (Apr 30, 2016)

I have never cared for the Lusitano personally and we have a lot of Andalusians. I just don't see the demand being high here for them. We're already dealing with an overwhelming amount of horses here, prices going down. If people are looking about venturing into less common horses they're leaning towards the Akhal-teke, Knabstrupper. The Warmbloods aren't exactly "different", they're gaining tremendous popularity. Between the three I mentioned the Lusitano would not be a venture I'd get into if that's what you're thinking. I'd stick to one of the three I mentioned. The Knabstrupper obviously is a highly coloured horse so it's niche would be less of course. Good luck.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

I know there are Breeders here but the general market for theses horses is not:neutral:. The prices are more than average for quality of them but the people that may pay more are looking for show or breeding stock . in America from what i've seen most will buy the the horses that excel in those disciplines. So WB breeds for Dressage & jumping, Tb for racing & English Disciplines,stock horses for western,arabs for show & endurance etc. These horses are not the norm as competitive in those disciplines here,not to say they don't do them :wink: 

IDK about quality here either.... seen few that look nice but are usually crosses the others are kinda homely IMO


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