# Told to Ride with Feet Far Forward?



## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It is the old cowboy style. The pictures below date to the early 1900s:




























Lots more pictures at a great website:

Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

It works better than a lot of people think. This was my version of it a few years back:










If your horse is inclined to stop suddenly without warning, that position will drive you deeper into the saddle. Here is how an English guy described it a few years ago:



xxBarry Godden said:


> Years ago I was taught to ride 'Western' by an old, bent bow legged Canadian cowboy who had been involved with horses since he was a kid. In the 1930s he had been a winning rodeo rider. By the time I met him he had formed a Western riding club in Surrey, where anyone who rode horses used the English hunting seat. Kennie's first job with new members was to teach them how to ride Western on his Western schooled horses.
> 
> The first lesson was to adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot.
> 
> ...


I'm a 58 year old guy, and my hips are tight from decades of jogging. Over the last 8 years of riding, my heels have come back...about to where the British Cavalry taught - that the back of the heel should be in line with a plumb bob dropped from the soldier's chest.










He was correct when "He said it also "pushed" your heels down automatically if your feet are forward and toes pointed up." It does work that way. 

Heels down is not all that critical, at least in western riding. A good boot and a good stirrup will combine to keep you from getting your foot caught in a stirrup.

But if I were giving riding advice, I would save the "feet forward" position for specific situations. Even dressage riders do it for specific motions:










But I tried it enough to say I wouldn't want to make it a habit. If your horse spooks, you will be more secure with the heels further back.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

You are correct in thinking of the shoulder hip heel alignment, more helpful to think of standing on your horse, rather than sitting, if someone made your horse disappear you would land on your feet, not on your butt! This gives you a safe balanced seat, long leg, with your heel down, not jammed but feeling like a weight is pulling it down.


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## WolfsongStorm (Feb 14, 2014)

I appreciate the detailed post! It makes much more sense now. The part about how they adjusted the stirrups in xxBarry Godden's post also makes sense, as it sounds like the way this guy does them, as in: if you stand up straight in the stirrups you shouldn't be able to easily fit a fist underneath you. I am glad I can see more where he is coming from now.


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## Zexious (Aug 2, 2013)

I have to ask, surely his position wasn't as exaggerated as the first pic you posted? o,o


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Here is a video of Craig Cameron explaining how to ride a canter. Notice his feet are forward, although nothing like the picture in post #1. Notice how he uses his back to match the horse's motion.






The western saddle tree distributes weight differently than an English one does:










Much of the weight-distributing area of a western saddle is BEHIND the cantle, unlike an English saddle tree:










Good riding is moving in fluid balance with your horse, and anticipating what your horse might do. You might look at some videos of cutting horses and roping horses to see how some western riders do things while in motion.

I learned to ride using a forward seat. When I switched to western, I realized I wasn't going to jump (intentionally) and therefor didn't need to come very far out of the saddle. And if you ride a green horse in areas where they might spook hard, then being deep in the saddle has its advantages. It also makes sitting a trot pretty easy, IMHO.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Ones legs 'scissor' at times to cue for a specific movement, which could make the riders leg to be forward....or the other to far back.

The picture of the dressage rider looks to be an example of leg movement in order to cue.

My humblest of opinion to be sure.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

It came near the 7 minute mark here:






I won't guess WHY he did it, but only note that sometimes a very good rider will choose to move his feet further forward. 

A lot of the old western saddles were "slick seat" saddles, and I've spent enough time sliding forward in one to realize why someone might want their feet forward. My leg is more vertical now because I'm using a sheepskin cover and it simply is not a "slick seat" any more. The tack used can drive the position.

The position taken by Larry Trocha below remains a common western one. I am not by any means the only western rider who doesn't try to keep his heel under his hip:


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

To cue or block?


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Feet forward is something of a defensive position. I grew up riding green horses. Even though I knew from reading that the shoulder - hip - heels alignment was "correct", I could stay on better with my feet pushed forward. That ability to stick to a horse has earned me the rough string for most of my adult life. 

This is a walking horse who had decided that he should be the one making the decisions rather than the lady who was leasing him.


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## gottatrot (Jan 9, 2011)

Riding with the leg so loose and sloppy as Craig Cameron demonstrates could cause real problems in an English saddle or if the horse moves up into a gallop. You can ride like that if your horse is not inclined to change direction suddenly without asking, and if he's going to stay in a steady canter.

I'd never advocate putting the leg forward as far as the OP's first example (also, poor horse that saddle does not fit at all), but the example BSMS shows of how he used to ride with the leg slightly forward can be very helpful on a green, spooky horse. If you have a horse inclined to put on the brakes so suddenly that their ear is inside your nose (has happened to me several times), that position is more secure than having the leg all the way back underneath you.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

Not all green spooky horse slam the breaks. Some like to ditch out sideways, spin, teleport, or the delux combo of all three. Personally I have found the feet under help keep you over your horse during those moves.

One also has to look at the conformation of the horse. Mine is not a long horse. If I were to ride feet forward my toes hit his elbow. Maybe my toes would not interfere if my toes pointed out. With MY conformation my toes point forward hence the issue we have with forward leg.


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## DraftyAiresMum (Jun 1, 2011)

My best friend once told someone she was giving a lesson to that she needed to thrust her feet out in front of her and her heels down so that she could see the tips of her toes without having to move her head down. I just looked at her like "What?! :shock: " I can understand riding on your seat pockets (although I find that uncomfortable) or being in a chair seat, but the way the lady ended up sitting was very much like the kid in the pic the OP put up.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

And to much pressure on my tail bone....ouch....and the shrinking spinal column, another ouch if I sit with legs forward. Or I could be doing it all wrong. Sure would not be the first time!


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## Triumvirate (Jan 24, 2015)

I think the position BSMS is talking about and the position the OP is talking about are two different things. I've seen people ride like the pic of OP. I usually see them with an emaciated horse sitting outside their trailer and ridden on the black top with ill-fitting tack, big bits, big Spurs, and horrific feet. Not saying your guy is like that OP, the picture you posted just looks really familiar of a lot of people I've seen.

I too have always been taught about riding aligned on a horse. I was told to pretend there was a chord attached to the top of my head from the ceiling that held me up (pretending the horse wasn't there). I only put my feet forward if I'm really trying to exaggerate teaching a stop on a greener horse or if some situation suddenly arises where I need them forward.

I also want to say that riding aligned in flatwork is a bit different than riding in a job like with cattle or war or what have you. You learn to ride balanced in flatwork so that you are comfortable and more balanced in, say, "stranger" positions that could come about in a job.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

I've never seen someone ride like the picture in post #1.

I've seen lots of folks ride with a long leg that is forward of the hip, similar to this:








​ 
This is from a book by Jane Savoie:








​ 
She considers the third to be "out of balance". In fact, it simply has the weight behind the stirrups. The center of gravity in "c" is farther forward than in "a", since moving weight to the front pulls your center of gravity to the front.

If I do it in a western saddle, only feet further forward with a straighter leg, then it stretches the thigh muscles taunt and carries more weight in the thighs. If you took the sheepskin off of my saddle, I'd revert to it in a heartbeat because it gives me a way to keep from sliding forward if my horse balks. It also drives me deeper into the saddle if he does "The OMG Crouch"...or if he takes a bad step and stumbles to his knees. It is the equivalent of putting one foot forward when standing in a bus, to brace yourself against an unexpected slowing.

It trades a little bit in efficiency, since it leaves the horse working his back harder at speed. But it is not a huge trade-off. When jockeys got out of the saddle around 1890, race times improved by 6% (1890 versus 1900). Since then, race times have improved by 1%, so it seems reasonable to attribute the 6% improvement to the change in style. Over 1 1/4 miles, that is 400 feet - enormous in a race! 

But at a walk? That is using 10.6 miles of energy to go 10 miles. Or 21.2 miles of energy to go 20 miles. Maybe less, since the walk is a smooth gait that doesn't involve a lot of lifting by the back. In return, it makes it easy for a rider to stay on in a stumble or refusal. It also, IMHO, makes it easier to sit the trot.

I'm not trying to talk anyone into doing it. Now that I'd rather lose my helmet than my sheepskin, I find I don't do it very often. No need. If the horse balks or stumbles, my "butt velcro" will keep me solidly in place. But take a look at this old western saddle (about 1910):








​ 
Erwin E. Smith Collection Guide | Collection Guide

Hard, polished leather. Nothing to grip. Like having your butt on ice, only warmer. Also note the tall cantle - some in the 1800s were as much as 9" high! Ride a green horse, or a spooky one, in a saddle like this, and you will understand why some do it.

It isn't THE way to ride, but it is neither stupid nor "wrong". I will probably never ride that way again, but a lot of folks will look at me funny when I refuse to get on a saddle that is missing its sheepskin...:rofl:

As a side note, this print was done in the early 1800s by an avid rider. Toes were down because they used smooth metal stirrups with flat leather soles on their boots. That makes keeping your stirrups tough. Look at their leg position, and also the variation on a "forward seat" from before Caprilli was born:


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## Paintedponies1992 (Nov 17, 2013)

I had a gelding who had a bit of a habit of crow hopping and throwing fits if he didn't get his way, I was told to sit with my feet a bit further forward (not as exaggerated as OP's picture) to be on the defensive side. I don't do it all the time now, especially with my gelding I have now or older mare, but I've found that whenever I get into a hairy situation that my body instinctually adopts that position.


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## Tazmanian Devil (Oct 11, 2008)

WolfsongStorm said:


> He grew up in Puerto Rico, so maybe it is something he learned there?


Slightly off topic, but the photo in the post brought back some memories. It looks like the photo was taken in Puerto Rico.

I was there a few years back. One night I pulled off the main road to get some gas. On the adjacent street there were people racing horses. Looked just like the photo. Young kids _flying_ down the pavement. Drag racing with horses, pretty much in the dark. I wondered how they didn't get killed. Can't speak much for the foot position, which looked pretty much like the photo. They did have a talent for staying on the horse in some pretty crazy conditions.


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## WolfsongStorm (Feb 14, 2014)

Zexious said:


> I have to ask, surely his position wasn't as exaggerated as the first pic you posted? o,o


Oh no! His position is about the same as the first photo bsms posted of the 1900s cowboys, not nearly that exaggerated. The first photo was just the closest example I could find to feet being forward as opposed to "chair seat".


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## WolfsongStorm (Feb 14, 2014)

He rides a green horse that tends to stop suddenly, also in a slick saddle. The horse will occasionally crow hop out on trails. His OTTB that I ride is older, calmer, and has never had an issue with stopping suddenly. I am used to riding shoulder/hip/heel aligned and haven't had a reason to change my position, though occasionally I find myself riding like bsms' photo with feet just a little more forward. Again, we do use the slicker saddles and since I'm not used to them I do slide a bit.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I quite often push me legs forward if I've been in the saddle for a long time - it allows me to stretch my knees or they 'seize up'!!
That leaning right back style is something we used to do when we were having trotting races without saddles - its easier to stick on and feels 'smoother' but won't give you better brakes on a strong horse or one that tries to take off - total opposite as you've lost all your shoulder and seat strength
If you look at some of Munning's paintings of Gypsies you'll see some examples of them riding bareback in that position


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## FtValleyWrangler (Apr 30, 2016)

One thing to think about...if you ride too long in an exaggerated chair seat with legs too far forward and really butt heavy you can really sore your horses back. I've seen lots of issues with soreness from people riding in that position even after only a couple of hours. Especially in lighter weight saddles with lighter trees. Something to think about.

If I'm on a broncy green horse I may ride with a lot of weight in the stirrups and a forward leg to sit me deep in the saddle but only for a short time.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

jaydee said:


> I quite often push me legs forward if I've been in the saddle for a long time - it allows me to stretch my knees or they 'seize up'!!
> That leaning right back style is something we used to do when we were having trotting races without saddles - its easier to stick on and feels 'smoother' but won't give you better brakes on a strong horse or one that tries to take off - total opposite as you've lost all your shoulder and seat strength
> If you look at some of Munning's paintings of Gypsies you'll see some examples of them riding bareback in that position


To stretch my knees, I have to drop the stirrups as I did when the pic for my avatar was taken.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

FtValleyWrangler said:


> One thing to think about...if you ride too long in an exaggerated chair seat with legs too far forward and really butt heavy you can really sore your horses back....


This is neither a chair seat nor butt heavy:










Rode today with my wife, so no warming up first. And I'm always very stiff at the start of a ride. So today I thought, "_What the heck? I'll try the feet forward thing again..._" That puts my legs where the cinch goes, which is also the smallest circumference.

About 2 minutes later, Bandit had to deal with kids playing on a playground in their yard. "_OMG! Little kids, swinging and squealing!_" So we did a little sideways dancing, I urged him forward, he didn't want my wife on Cowboy to pass us...so we went. Since this thread was fresh in my mind, I rode the entire ride that way. About 90 minutes. Trying to ride the way Barry Godden described. Bandit did fine. And in a sidepull halter, too!

When we got home, I put the horses away. Came in and sat down - and immediately got poked in the butt. I had left the hoof pick in my rear jeans pocket the entire ride. Didn't feel a thing until I came inside - and sat in a chair!

Sitting in a chair involves a folded leg and a horizontal thigh. Not a nearly straight leg:
_
"adjust the stirrups so that the leg was carried almost straight. Enough bend was left in the knee to just lift the butt off the seat of the saddle even at the trot. 

The second lesson was to learn to ride with signficant weight carried on the stirrups at all times. 

The third lesson was to move with the horse, if it leant over, then lean with it. The rider sat upright and straight using the feet to compensate and resist the forces of gravity and movement by pressing down on the stirrups - which were almost being used as 'pedals'._"

Now, THIS is pee-poor riding:










The first picture? Did it again today, and it worked well. Not THE way to ride, but not a bad way, either. And "_signficant weight carried on the stirrups at all times_" cannot be done without taking weight OFF the rump.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

how can you say this:


This is neither a chair seat nor butt heavy:










when the rider is pushing so far forward into the stirrup that it no longer hangs at a vertical angle (see how the stirrup itself is angled forward) then I'd call that a chair seat, and nothing less.

it's one thing to have your legs out a bit in front to where the knee is, then drop down, but that sort of directily forward push into the stirrup is a seat I would not teach for typical riding, at all.

if the rider lockes their knee, they become a BETTER projectile. the rigid leg only serves to fling them forward , like a spear thrower, if the hrose stops dead.

a bit of bend in the knee makes all the difference in the world.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Well, I've ridden that way quite a while, and rode it again for 90 minutes today - and never felt the hoofpic in my rear pocket. So I obviously was not heavy in my seat.

Ridden the way Barry Godden was taught, it is NOT a "chair seat". When you are in a chair, do you have significant weight in feet? Are your legs nearly straight?

When your thighs are nearly horizontal, and you are sitting on top of the horse's back, it is a chair seat. I've never tried sitting on a horse like this, so I don't know - but it LOOKS pretty awkward:








​ 
Maybe it is not. I hate to say something doesn't work when I've never tried it. But I have tried riding the way Barry was taught, including today. And I know what I feel - weight in my thighs and feet. And I know what I did not feel, prior to coming inside and sitting down - a hoofpic in my rear pocket.

"_If the rider lockes their knee, they become a BETTER projectile. The rigid leg only serves to fling them forward , like a spear thrower, if the hrose stops dead._"

I did about a thousand "OMG Crouches" on Mia doing that, and it did not throw me up & forward. When Bandit stumbled on a rock today (under the sand in a sandy wash, I've jogged there and you can't see the rock until you step on it)...it drove me deeper in the seat. It also worked fine when we did sideways dancing 2 minutes into the ride, with me stiff as a board.

In many western saddles, including mine, the thigh will rest within a narrow range of angles. That sets the knee. The rider can either push forward with the lower leg, putting weight into the stirrup, or let the lower leg hang down, or bring the lower leg back so the heel goes under the hip. I like all three of those options, depending on what I am doing and what horse I am on.

It also worked well enough for me in an Australian saddle.








​ 
Only tried it a couple of times in an English saddle, so I won't comment on that. And all I can really say is that when I try it, it works. I'm not recommending it, and I don't think there is any one way to ride...but I might do it again tomorrow. Bandit sure didn't mind today.

NOTE: Truth in advertising - my avatar is how I typically ride. More like this:


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