# Jumping critique from the show



## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

http://www.horseforum.com/horse-pictures/waihi-p-sj-40577/

and nzequine > Home --> photos --> gallery --> north island --> waihi --> pics 187 - 190


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## horseluver50 (Mar 19, 2009)

The thing that sticks out most to me, is his high head. I think you are pulling on his face too much. 
To get a better result over the fences, do a couple big halfhalts with the outside rein to get him collected over the jumps


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

Need more dressage. A lot of those jumps looked like accidents waiting to happen--you'll quickly kill the 'try' in your horse if you keep putting him in those kinds of situations.


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## HorsesAreForever (Nov 9, 2007)

okay I didnt watch more then 35 seconds of that... you deff need a lot more work on flat, and I would probably work over lower fences for a while! Once of these days your guys just gonna crash through the jump....

He has talent with some work you'll be great!


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## XivoShowjumper (Oct 16, 2009)

dear god you pulled that first rail like 20m!!!!!!!!! firstly don't let him through your hands, make them softer and use seat... as it appeared that u were out of the saddle more often than not- try and relax in the saddle a bit more- let him round beneath you and establish a rhythm (ie. MORE DRESSAGE!). that will stop you have to drag and balance on his mouth to get corners and slow him before the fence.try a drop or the flash on a hanovarian to stop him gaping, will give you a bit more control too if he can't escape the pressure .
the fact that he pulled alot of the verticals is showing that he needs balance and impulsion behind. Impulsion doesn't mean faster, i would suggest lots of grid work... a great one for him would be ' ground rail, bounce, 1s, 2s, bounce' also ... just typing as i'm thinking here.... a few canter poles before and after a low vertcal fence (2'6ish would prob be a good height for him).

i'm under the impression that the last course on the vid is a topscore or similar so i understand speed is a major factor... but was that the last course of the day? because he was jumping much better after getting into a rythm and knowing what he's doing..

sorry if i was a bit harsh.. or offended you but mean well


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

ok, firstly, I pretty much only do flat work lol. and when I do jump (only at pony club or show really.) Its schooling and grids. He does rush. its from what his previvous instructors did, I was wanting more position critique lol. 
OHH!! and in that vid the first person is me the second one is josh and the 3rd is josh. I do ! allot! of flat work (no actually dressage, but flat work is dressage in a nutshell) 

here is us doing flat work 










I probs should ahve said that I was only the first person in the vid, cause joshs horse is nuts as a doof.


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

oh and he is almost constantly on the bit, however it is when we are jumping that he is different, its gotten a huge amount better lol.

position critique please =]


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## RacePony007 (Jul 4, 2009)

You lean tooooooo far forrrrwaaarrrrrddddddddd!


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## stacieandtheboys (Jan 6, 2009)

well in that picture you are leaning forward and you need to keep your heals down. Eyes and head up. I haven't watched the video.


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## XivoShowjumper (Oct 16, 2009)

ok, we'll do position... i think your doing to much.. sit back a bit and drop your seat bones into the saddle, you seem perched. you need to work on releases and your hands- i noticed going around corners etc your elbows were sticking out and i could see your hands out of place (at 0:30 on the vid). and your lower leg slips back over the fences .. thats all i can see from the vid.. in the pic ur leaning forward and your hands are too low - u need to close the angle in ur elbow


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## 1dog3cats17rodents (Dec 7, 2007)

I'm sorry, but that was frightening. Your horse needs some serious schooling on the flat to learn rhythm, control, and balance, and then over LOW fences and gymnastics. It's not his fault, he's trying to save you both, but it is frightening. look at the jump at 26-29 second in the video. You fling your self up his neck, he catches you, then flings himself over that jump. If his knees had been a fraction lower, you both could have flipped.

The jump before that, you almost miss because you are tearing around the course with no balance or control. Same with the jump around 31 seconds, you almost miss it and lose alot of time ripping his face around as he skids out. Hlf the speed, twice the balance and you would have made a smooth turn that saved time.

As for your position, you are way to handsy. You yanks his mouth around (hence the gaping) instead of using your seat and leg to balance him and turn. Over the jump your leg slides back and your jump up his neck.

Aaack, 41 seconds, he hangs his knees and jumps over his knees so much, again you almost crashed. For your sake and his, please do some low gymnastics and a ton of flat. Get a trainer! One of these days, he's not going to be able to save you and the resulting crash will be a face first tumble.


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## MyBoyPuck (Mar 27, 2009)

Yeah, sorry but I didn't get very far into it either. In your turns, you're pulling him into the turn with the inside rein instead of turning him properly with both reins/legs/seat. It puts him very off balance and gives you almost no hope of rebalancing his canter between the fences. If he rushes as you say, then practice half halting between fences or even ground poles. After you land from fence one, sit tall, deep, half halt and make sure you get a response. Even if you have to bring him back to a walk to make your point, get a response to your half halt. He needs to start listening to you. If he rushes, fix it. Plain and simple. I just got back from 3 straight days of clinics with world class riders. All of them worked on riders getting their horses listening to them. While the info was harsh in some cases, all of the riders had positive results at the end of the clinics. Please go back to the basics and get that horse listening to you.


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

Unfortunately, Charlibum, you have been given the advice to refrain from jumping so much (you excuse yourself for always doing flatwork, and this may be the case, but all we ever see is jumping photos) and focus purely on the flat several times. *In my opinion* if one was doing as much flatwork as you claim, your horse would be more balanced and able to approach gymnastic work well. 
I couldn't finish the video. I was alarmed and worried for you both, I was sure you were both going to fall and get injured. How you could even compete with that style is seriously disconcerting. I don't mean to offend, but does it not worry you at the potential risk that your horse is rushing those jumps?! You yourself stated that you know he is, so why put him in that position? In my opinion the reason your horse is rushing is because he's trying to get away from your hand. Every time you yanked on his face, he threw his head up - and of course his vision becomes narrower and he was flinging himself over those jumps. It's nothing to feel accomplished about if I'm honest.


I do have to say, your horse has a heart of gold. He took as best care as he could of yourself and him doing that round, despite the fact that he shouldn't be faced with that kind of situation. What a sweetheart. 

I'll refrain from saying anything else. I think everyone else has covered it.


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## CessBee (Dec 6, 2008)

I myself know this horse personally, was going to buy him actually, but we didnt click. He is always mouthy, always has been, seriously, you can have NO contact on his mouth and he will gape and chew at the bit. its him. Also he has improved out of sight since she got him. He used to nap so much.
You have done so well with him Loren. Seriously. You and Charli are a great match


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

You guys really are picking on me now and it really hurts to hear you say that I am putting my horse in danger. its not that bad. Ive had Char for over a year now, he is my first horse. and I will not be selling him. he is my world and man does it hit me hard saying things like "Every time you yanked on his face, he threw his head up..." I don't yank on his face, I never ever yank. ever. I DO use outside rein and leg, I promise. I do not ever, Ever put my horse in a situation were I know he could injure himself or in a situation in which he can't handle himself. hes not rushing into the jumps, his whole round is fast. Its him and its me. and I am working on it. I do difficult grids where he and I must think to complete. 

yes I do agree we are going to fast. he is improving, you have to have seen him 12 months ago to see that. to appreciate the idea that he was only good for the knackers 14 or so months ago. I must add that in a video of that quality you cannot tell how much of what rein I am using. He does not slip at all at 41 seconds his hind end spins out and I reposition him with my outside rein. I am not trying to cover up the fact that I am only using the inside rein, because I'm not doing that at all. I swear to god he is mouthy. some times the reins are loose and he still opens it. 

ohmyitschelle-Your welcome to come and stay at mine and meet Charli if you wish. and see how much I abuse my horse when riding. 

Good on you guys for making me feel like I cant ride and I don't look after my horse. It honestly hurts, bad.


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

CessBee said:


> I myself know this horse personally, was going to buy him actually, but we didnt click. He is always mouthy, always has been, seriously, you can have NO contact on his mouth and he will gape and chew at the bit. its him. Also he has improved out of sight since she got him. He used to nap so much.
> You have done so well with him Loren. Seriously. You and Charli are a great match


I must have written mine when you posted, thanks mal =]


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

1dog3cats17rodents said:


> I'm sorry, but that was *frightening*. *Your horse needs some serious schooling on the flat to learn rhythm, control, and balance*, and then over LOW fences and gymnastics. * It's not his fault, he's trying to save you both,* but it is frightening. look at the jump at 26-29 second in the video. You fling your self up his neck, he catches you, then flings himself over that jump. If his knees had been a fraction lower, you both could have flipped.
> 
> The jump before that, you almost miss because you are tearing around the course with no balance or control. Same with the jump around 31 seconds, you almost miss it and lose alot of time ripping his face around as he skids out. Hlf the speed, twice the balance and you would have made a smooth turn that saved time.
> 
> ...





MyBoyPuck said:


> Yeah, sorry but I didn't get very far into it either. *In your turns, you're pulling him into the turn with the inside rein instead of turning him properly with both reins/legs/seat. *It puts him very off balance and gives you almost no hope of rebalancing his canter between the fences. If he rushes as you say, then practice half halting between fences or even ground poles. After you land from fence one, sit tall, deep, half halt and make sure you get a response. Even if you have to bring him back to a walk to make your point, get a response to your half halt. He needs to start listening to you. If he rushes, fix it. Plain and simple. I just got back from 3 straight days of clinics with world class riders. All of them worked on riders getting their horses listening to them. While the info was harsh in some cases, all of the riders had positive results at the end of the clinics. Please go back to the basics and get that horse listening to you.





ohmyitschelle said:


> Unfortunately, *Charlibum, you have been given the advice to refrain from jumping so much* (you excuse yourself for always doing flatwork, and this may be the case, but all we ever see is jumping photos) and focus purely on the flat several times. *In my opinion* if one was doing as much flatwork as you claim, your horse would be more balanced and able to approach gymnastic work well.
> I couldn't finish the video. I was alarmed and worried for you both, I was sure you were both going to fall and get injured. How you could even compete with that style is seriously disconcerting. I don't mean to offend, but does it not worry you at the potential risk that your horse is rushing those jumps?! You yourself stated that you know he is, so why put him in that position? In my opinion the reason your horse is rushing is because he's trying to get away from your hand. Every time you yanked on his face, he threw his head up - and of course his vision becomes narrower and he was flinging himself over those jumps. It's nothing to feel accomplished about if I'm honest.
> 
> 
> ...


Agree, agree, agree. 
CharliBum I hope for your horse's sake you slow down one day and really think about what people are constantly saying to your posts.
I see the word "frightening" a LOT. That alone should tell you something. Please stop and think before you and your lovely horse flip over a jump.


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

I do listen and I am constantly doing flat and grid work, and I'm rather sorry for the lack of flat work pictures, I don't have photos taken every time I ride. I can get some of me doing it if you like? What would you guys like pictures of? here is another from the first day. in the hunters. please, I swear, really on my family's life that I am not putting my horse in a dangerous position. really.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

to add to what other have said ... i think you need to go back and learn how to steer, count strides and find a distance. 

your horse is really trying hard for you but if the rider is not doing their job the horse can only do so much... especially when the jumps are of size.

so to learn your distance and strides i would encourage you to put the jumps down to polls on the ground in between the standards. Put three sets of standards in a line- the 1st and 2nd 7 strides apart and the 2nd and 3rd 3 strides apart. Practice trotting in and cantering through getting 7 and 3 and then 8 and 4 and 6 and 2 ... then canter in and do the same numbers as just stated. This will help you get the feel of bringing your horse back as well as asking him to go forward. You need to MASTER(getting it right on the first try) this before you should move on. This isn't something you master in one rider either ... so once you master that you will put the third pole up to an X ... do the same thing that we did with the numbers above- now after you get that perfect on the FIRST try you can add another jump and you get the point 

Hope that helps...


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

Thanks, I can normally see my strides well but get a bit out with uprights mostly. I am finished with school so tomorrow will be spent setting up grids and trot poles etc.


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

charliBum said:


> ohmyitschelle-Your welcome to come and stay at mine and meet Charli if you wish. and see how much I abuse my horse when riding.


I *never* said you abused your horse. If you wish to take it that way, nothing I can do but say, I never meant for you to believe you were abusing your horse. 

I sincerely wish you all the best in working with your horse on the flat, and building his jumping correctly. But I wasn't the only one to say what I pointed out, so I hope you see we're not trying to attack you (wasn't my intentio), but suggest to you that you back off the jumping... you may think some people are knowitalls here, but the reason I personally spoke out was because I really was worried about an accident occuring.
Good luck.
x


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## charliBum (Jan 7, 2009)

You quite defiantly strongly hinted it. Do you have msn, I can show you his starting pictures etc.


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## mayfieldk (Mar 5, 2008)

She never hinted at such a thing. Please quote where she did.

You do yank, you do pull, and you do look horribly dangerous. Just because you love your horse, doesn't mean it makes those things go away.

If your horse doesn't crash into a jump soon, he's going to start refusing. Guaranteed. You can NOT chase him into those jumps and get horrible distances ever time and expect him to keep jumping.

He's only going to put up with you for so long.

And please, stop using the 'but he's so much better' excuse. We all know horses improve. But just because he's _better_ *doesn't*mean you should be jumping him. A good trainer knows when to start jumping a horse--and yours is not relaxed, nor trained enough to do it.

Just because you say you use 'outside rein and leg' and your seat doesn't mean your horse _understands_ them--and that's *VERY* clear in the video. He's running through aids and pulling on your hands and spinning out of turns.

You can say what makes you happy, but if you want to get any better, it's time to grow up and start listening to the advice posted.

If not, we'll be waiting for your threads on how to 'fix' a horse that stops or runs out.


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## JustDressageIt (Oct 4, 2007)

I agree mayfieldk. This horse is a trooper. CharliBum, you and your horse do need to take a step back and really look at what's going on in that video. First, the horse is rushing - this can be solved with more dressage work (half halts) and going back to basics, working on slowing down. Secondly, the horse takes some very scary spots - again, dressage and slow will help fix that. Thirdly, the horse is running through your aids; dressage and slow will help fix that. 
If you were my student, you'd be going back to flatwork, and figuring out inside versus outside aids. You'd be learning leg-yields and how to ride the horse's hind end, and become less handsy. Then I'd ask you to start controlling the horse's hind end and ribcage and shoulder with haunches in/out and shoulder in/out. Transitions (within gaits and between gaits), flexion, counterbending, all on the flat would be the name of the game for 6 months. Then I'd introduce trot poles again. Then a crossrail. Then we'd go back to flatting for a while. Then we'd look at jumping again.
You have a lot to work on. You've been given a ton of good advice on all your critique posts. You are not a terrible rider, and your horse is very good - he saved your butt a few times in that video - HOWEVER you need to step back and see what we're seeing. There is a ton of room for improvement on your flatwork. In my humble but very honest opinion, you need 6 months or more of just solid flatwork, no jumping whatsoever, to eventually improve your jumping. 
Please watch your language.


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## kchfuller (Feb 1, 2008)

charliBum said:


> Thanks, I can normally see my strides well but get a bit out with uprights mostly. I am finished with school so tomorrow will be spent setting up grids and trot poles etc.


Well i would highly encourage you to do the exercise i explained for 2-3 weeks straight and only do that and jump nothing more then the small X's that i explained. Your horse will feel more confidant as well because you will be consistent and he will get in a rhythm. 

Then when you start jumping again you still need to think and work on this exercise ... no one is ever above the basics and we can all always learn more


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## ohmyitschelle (Aug 23, 2008)

charliBum said:


> You quite defiantly strongly hinted it. Do you have msn, I can show you his starting pictures etc.


 
Abuse is something one would need to see in person to suggest, unless the obvious (sores/wounds, skinny etc). I would *never* suggest online without knowing a horse correctly (in person), that someone is abusing their horse. In fact I'd never do it, simply because I know how it feels with people say things like that (which I'd like to simply point out I've never been accused of doing). What I said was what other people are also seeing. I'm going to stop repeating this. 

I'm sorry you feel that way. And no I don't use msn.
I think you've been given good advice in numerous threads, and I'm sure we'd all be happy to continue with the good advice if you need it. But it's up to you to take on the advice. The only reason your threads take a negative turn, is because you deny advice, and sometimes quite rudely. Only so many times can a person ignore that. 
I wish you all the best.


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## Allison Finch (Oct 21, 2009)

I would take about six steps back and start over. This horse is not balanced enough to be doing jumps this high. He is way too heavy on the forehand making it very hard to jump well. That is one reason he is hanging his front legs so badly, pulling rails. There is no eye for the distances by the rider, causing terrible spots for the jump take off. Both horse and rider need to start over in their training.
You need to trot fences until he can engage his haunch better and you can practise seeing spots from a slower, more adjustable stride. Half halts are needed. Not a few huge ones, but many smaller ones. When he can calmly approach the jumps from trot, then you can graduate to cantering jumps. Cantering too early encourages them to use momentum, instead of balance, to get over the jumps. This encourages the rushing.

Good luck. Don't be in too big a hurry to jump larger jumps. Once you two learn the basics, it will go quickly.


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## ridingismylife2 (Nov 4, 2008)

mayfieldk said:


> You can say what makes you happy, but if you want to get any better, it's time to grow up and start listening to the advice posted.


I was going to say the same thing! 
The others have given you awesome advice. They are not trying to be mean or rude. They are just concerned for you and your horse.


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