# Percheron / Quarterhorse Cross



## Shoebox

This is Clementine, a Percheron / Quarterhorse cross. She's very smart - moreso than most horses I've met - and has tons of potential, with a wonderfully smooth trot / canter. She doesn't know how to square on command, so I was shoving her around her turnout paddock and taking pictures when she seemed to be standing properly. She's a bit chubby now, as she hasn't been ridden much (The only horse dentist around here was booked for weeks, so she hasn't been ridden since we're having problems with head throwing - if it's her teeth I don't want to make it worse.) Also because it's becoming winter.

I think, looking at her front feet, that the Left one is a bit turned in. It's never looked that way before, and I'm pretty sure it's just because of a wonky trim.


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## Elana

Looking at this horse she is very nice until you get to her legs. She is back at the knee and tied in at the knee (two things you really do not want together). Her hocks are nice and low but she is a bit sickle hocked (blame the draft horse in her) and a bit over straight behind. 

She is why you really do not want to breed two very dis-similar horses together. You don't get a melding of the two.. but instead individual features of both. It can be good.. or not so much. In this case, she appears to have Quarterhorse legs which are a bit light for her more draft horse body. 

I do like her topline and her expressiveness.


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## DraftyAiresMum

I agree with Elana. She's lovely until you get to her legs. In addition to the things that Elana pointed out, she's lighter on bone than I would expect in a draft cross. My boy is a Percheron/paint cross and is ridiculously heavy on bone, as is his half sister (out of the same sire).


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## Shoebox

"Back at the knee" and "Tied at the knee" - I'm not sure what those mean, 100%. Tied at the knee means the Cannon area of the leg is narrower near the knee, right? But I'm not sure about the Back at the Knee bit.

Also, how would this affect possible breeding (to another Percheron)? She has *so much* potential (Has been agreed by many people, not just me loving on my horse), and she's so incredibly smart that it seems a shame to not pass it on. (Of course, this would be after testing this potential out, but so far she's been wonderful). However, I would second guess myself if the foal would come out wonky. I would think that, with Percheron dominating the cross the foal would come out more drafty, like a lot of draft- QH crosses you see, but I am not one to know anything about how to figure that out.


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## CLaPorte432

I would never breed this horse. Sure, she has a great disposition, but she does absolutely not have the quality conformation that a broodmare should have. Her legs are not something you ever want to pass on. Along with the leg problems already pointed out, for a 1/2 Pench, she has fine boned legs. Again, not something suitable to be passing on.

The horse economy is down the drain and only going to get worse. If you dont have a quality horse to reproduce, dont reproduce. Im a firm believer of not breeding Grade horses unless they are money winning, outstanding horses. Show jumpers, barrel racers, reiners etc.

What has this mare done that would make her a good broodmare besides having a pretty face and is sweet?

I also dont think she looks very proportionate. He face looks very large and drafty, her neck is short and thin. Her hindquarters look weak to me. Stiffles are extremely weak looking. Back is on the longer side.

Also, her hooves look like they need a good trim. They are very...pancakey. Flat and wide.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shoebox

They were actually just trimmed. It's a new farrier (I moved up to school), and I am not happy with the results. I plan on finding someone else to come out and redoing the trim.

And no worries, at this point it is a passing fancy. I don't know much about breeding, so I was just curious.


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## Equilove

A quercheron... or porter horse...

Oh don't mind me, just trying to figure out fun names for the breed cross...


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## FeatheredFeet

For so many reasons, I wouldn't breed this mare. Percheron crosses, seem to have become the fad of the day, along with crossbreeding to Friesians. This mare shows what can happen when two completely different types are paired. I'm sure she's sweet and smart, but thousands of sweet and smart horses, are sent to slaughter every day. 

Cleaned up, I'll bet she'll be eye-catching and beautiful, but that won't fix her obvious conformation flaws. I do not condone producing or breeding from grade horses anyway. FAR too many around and not finding homes already. 

Love and enjoy your sweet girl. Sounds as though you have bonded well already. Just think very carefully, about breeding and passing on her conformation problems. 

Lizzie


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## DraftyAiresMum

With the conformation flaws this mare has, there is no way I'd consider breeding her, even if she was a papered purebred. Those types of flaws do not need to be passed on, regardless of how smart and sweet she is.

There are so many horses out there right now (many of them papered purebreds with excellent conformation) being sent to auction and slaughter, that the decision to NOT breed a conformationally flawed grade horse should be an easy one. It doesn't matter how sweet or smart a horse is, if they have flaws in their physical make up that will lead to their breaking down more quickly, those genetics should not be passed on. People thought I should leave my Percheron/paint cross gelding a stud (he was a stud colt when I got him) and stud him out because he's got beautiful coloring, he's intelligent, willing, sure-footed on the trail...just an all-around amazing horse. However, he's a grade and there's absolutely NO guarantee what we'd end up with if we did breed him. So, I made the easy decision to have him gelded.


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## Elana

"Back at the knee" means that the horse actually has her knee behind the vertical. Tied in at the knee means narrowing of the cannon and tendons below the knee. 

This is NOT a horse to breed. Ever. 

Tied in knees and back at the knee are serious flaws and can lead to splints, tendon issues, arthitis and lameness.. especially considering her heavy body. I conseider the two flaws together to be an unsoundness. 

Breeding her to a Percheron.. ahh.. not what I would do. 

Fact is, any F1 generation cross like this (two very dissimilar breeds) is a horse I would never breed. It is sort of like mixing two colors of paint.. like Yellow and Blue. The F1 generation is not necessarily green.. but is separated into bits of yellow and bits of blue. Now breed back to Yellow and you still do not get anything but more bits of yellow and bits of green.. and you cannot predict what those bits are. 

In the case of this horse she inherited light boned QH legs with conformation flaws.. and her over straight hind legs with sickle hocks from the Percheron side. Go bact to the percheron and you MIGHT get more bone or you might not. You might get a better front leg.. but probably not a better back leg. You might get this horse's strong top line.. or you might get a long back and a steep croup typical of many draft horses. 

Use this horse and enjoy her and when you are ready for another horse if you want to breed, find a horse and a breed and stay within the same type of animal. IOW's if you buy a Hannoverian, breed to another Hannoverian or to an Oldenburg.. or even a Cleveland Bay (if you can find one). If you buy a QH, breed to a QH or a Thoroughbred.. with similar type.


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## Shoebox

You are all right, of course  Like I said, it's more of a passing fancy at this point. It was part of my motivation behind posting her conformation shots - besides being just curious. It's just like a dog - I don't breed dogs, but if I did, I would never breed one with hip dysplasia or one that was pigeon toed, no matter how much I loved them. But, while I can usually tell in dogs, I'm terrible at horse conformations 

One last question for you all - If she has such chicken legs for her heavier body, can she jump? Not show jumping, just leisurely over low jumps kind of things. I thought someday to get a horse that could do jumping - I don't think Clem is cut out for anything big - but I thought low jumps (Like, foot off the ground kind) would be fun practice. But, if it'll be too much for her skinny little legs, then I don't want to! Right now she's just my casual pleasure horse, to ride down trails and learn on.


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## DraftyAiresMum

Once she loses weight, she might be okay to do small jumps every once in a while, but I definitely wouldn't jump her on a regular basis (even over low jumps).

Here's a good comparison to see how lacking in bone your mare is. This is my 3.5yo Percheron/paint gelding. See how thick his cannon bones are? That's a good amount of bone for his size (he's 16.1hh and 1500lbs...and not chunky for his size, just thickly built).


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## TheLastUnicorn

I am feeling the urge to stick up a bit for the crossbreds here... The comments about this mare's faults are valid... 
But without seeing either parent it is impossible to say for certain which faults came from which parent.
I know TONS of registered QH's which are sickle hocked, and straight behind... plenty are also tied in and back at the knee too. It is as possible that she inherited all her weaknesses from one parent or the other... Rather than sticking a breed generalization on faults, simply acknowledging the fault's existence is probably good enough. 
Maybe I have been lucky, but I can't say I have seen too many sickle hocked Percherons compared to how many stock horse breeds I have seen sporting that fault (and all of this mare's leg faults, actually). But that is rather besides the point, I guess. 

I actually have nothing against crossbreds... I worked with outfitters for awhile and we used, primarily, QH x Drafts (Belgians and Percherons) for packing, driving and carrying around green riders. Most of the ones we had were no more riddled with conformation issues than any other horse. (A couple exceptions... But you do see that within registered breeds as well) We had some AMAZING looking animals in our strings... Stocky bodied, medium height, heavy bone, large feet and nice square profiles. The breedingstock for the working strings was carefully balanced. None of the QH stock was light in bone, or small in hoof, and the drafts were chosen carefully to not be too heavy. Conformation faults were minimal, and never doubled up in both the mare and stallion. Again, I sort of digress though. 

I do, totally, agree that this mare does not need to be bred. To me, the idea behind any breeding is to better the parents, with a specific purpose in mind. Looking at this mare, I feel, she is a nice enough looking lady, which will make a lovely pleasure mount (as in not heavily competed or hard used... Not the actual discipline, just to clarify that comment) but... She does not stand out as a cross which would be a candidate for breedingstock, regardless of which way you wanted to breed back to. 

There are some very successful crossbreed programs... The reason they are successful is because the breeders are careful to not breed combinations of faults. If the worst thing this mare had going for her was that she was light in bone, that would be one thing... But to be light in bone and back at the knee, then tied in behind the knee, then post legged and sickle hocked.... Well... The odds of the resulting foal having combinations of faults as well is just too high to go through all the breeding risks... IMO


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## CLaPorte432

Unicorn, i understand what your saying. I have a Curly x Spanish Mustang gelding. My 1D barrel horse is a 3/4 QH and 1/4 Morgan. I have nothing against Grades.

But...At this point in time, does it matter where this mares faults came from? Will it change the outcome of the mare? Will it better the foal knowing the sire has x, x, and x wrong. Dam had x, x, x, wrong. It doesnt change anything in this mares case, and this mare shouldnt be bred, even to an amazing stallion. 

If your going to breed, in every situation, you pick the best of the best and hope for better then best. That includes when trying to crossbreed. Ive seen awesome draft crosses. But more times then not, they are badly bred with too many faults to count.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheLastUnicorn

That's exactly what I said....


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## Equilove

I also have a querchie example - a friend of mine used to own this beauty. He was every bit of 17 hands.


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