# Horse ridden in spurs all his life and hard to get forward



## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

Pretty much what the title says. So I acquired a new horse a few months ago who was trained h/j and has been ridden all his life in spurs to get him moving forward. I am currently trying to rewire him for dressage but it has been quite a challenge quashing old training habits. When I first tried him out before buying him, I could not get him into a trot or move off my leg until his prior people put some sharp pointy spurs on my boots. The good news is since I have brought him home he has gone from completely dead to the leg to somewhat dead to the leg without the use of spurs. He has a tendency to want to duck behind the bit, peanut-roll, and crawl at snail pace. He'll fourbeat at the canter which seriously feels like I'm riding a caterpillar or something. If you kick or smack him on he'll just grunt louder as if he were working harder but not really move forward at all. 

He has certainly made miles of progress but it is a chore getting him forward and maintaining it. I've gone through my progressive escalation of pressure checklist. I can kick him HARD and smack him with the crop or whip (he is *marginally* more responsive to the crop than the whip) HARD and he'll just be like "meh." I've even tried nailing him in the butt with a boot I was carrying in my hand. I don't think I've ridden anything as apathetic as he is. I have tried taking my leg on and off as a release but to no avail. He doesn't really respond to the kiss or cluck either. For some reason he did respond to laser noises for like 4 days but now could care less about it. I'll try to get him to blast off, let the reins out, post bigger or 2 point, and ensure I'm not giving him conflicting signals but it hasn't really seemed to help much. His response tends to be lousy and he'll fizzle out after about 3 strides which warrants another sharp kick or smack perpetuating a very tiring cycle. I've tried doing W/T, T/C, W/C up/down transitions to keep him engaged and this has worked somewhat. The times we do get that nice consistent, dynamic, forward movement he is such a pleasure to work with. However, the end result tends to be me drenched in sweat and him as clean and dry as a whistle. I just don't find this very fair in the least. :neutral:

I have tried using dressage spurs but with no success. He just grunts but does not respond even if you kick him with the spurs. They are mild spurs and look like this. 
http://cotswoldsport.co.uk/shop/images/spur_dressage1.jpg
I don't ever really ride in spurs and my ideology is that they are tools for refinement and not for creating forward energy. However, that has not been the way they've been used on him throughout his prior training. 

Before someone asks, he's been vetted sound, his saddle fits him (although it may be a less ideal fit for my awkward conformation), and I ride him in a french link eggbutt snaffle. On the lunge line he will race around at mach speeds if I carry a lunge whip (don't even need to crack it). Instead of using a lunge whip I will just raise my opposite hand in the air which he is very responsive to so I'm not sure why there is such a disconnect when it comes to his reaction to whips on the ground vs under saddle.  He is certainly not apathetic or listless on the ground in the least. Only under saddle. 

Any suggestions for creating and maintaining forward energy that I have not yet tried? I would highly appreciate any input.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

why did you buy him?


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Hi,

I'm 100% sure he's NOT 'apathetic' at all. He's just been 'shut down', desensitised, learned to 'put up & shut up'. You just need to teach him that there is a choice, that he can avoid the discomfort he's become 'helpless' about, by responding to it. 

And, IMO, especially for a 'shut down' type like this, I'd include lots of positive reinforcement(rewards) along with negative reinforcement(removing the pressure).

As you say he's responsive on the ground, that's where I'd start, with one person lunging & another riding, using leg aids & a crop to 'back up' aids.


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

tinyliny said:


> why did you buy him?


Quite honestly not the most helpful or warranted question to ask. As I said before, when you achieve that nice consistent forward energy from him he is a pleasure to ride and has all the talent to be a nice dressage horse.



loosie said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm 100% sure he's NOT 'apathetic' at all. He's just been 'shut down', desensitised, learned to 'put up & shut up'. You just need to teach him that there is a choice, that he can avoid the discomfort he's become 'helpless' about, by responding to it.
> 
> ...


Yes, this horse has been desensitized and has basically "shut down" but is slowly becoming re-sensitized to the aids. It has been a very slow and exhausting process. I have been consistently giving this horse positive reinforcement through verbal praising, pats, and releases via the removal of pressure. The success of which has been marginal.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

I'd suggest using actual positive reinforcement, as in scratchies(if he really likes that) & treats, along with your signals - praise & pats. 

How does he respond on the ground to fingertip pressure on his sides? To being asked to go forward? Tapped with a crop? I kno you said he was good on the ground, but specifics?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Is all your riding in an arena? 

I'm not suggesting he is sour, many horses live their lives in arenas. But, I'm wondering if getting yours out would help him be more forward? 

Also, he may not be fit enough, or in the right ways, to maintain good, forward movement.

And, honestly, my first question after reading your original post was also "Why did you buy him," too. There was little in your first post to suggest he demonstrated good potential for what you hoped to do with him.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

First of all, he has not 'shut down'. This is not a case of 'learned helplessness'. He has simply 'tuned you out'. I can also promise you that 'positive reinforcement' will not make him be one tiny bit more forward. This is really common with horses that have always been ridden with spurs. It is why we never use them on young and green horses and never let novice riders wear them. We DO use them on advanced or 'finished' horses, but may go several rides with never touching these 'finely tuned' horses with them. The 'finely tuned' and 'finished' horses only need to 'hear' the cues from a light tightening of the rider's upper calves. A spur is there only to remind them that they had better listen to that upper calf.

I can tell you how to get him going, but it is not going to work to make him into a decent Dressage horse. I don't want to seem catty or snide, but Tiny has it right. You should not have bought him. There are a few 'occupations' that absolutely require a lot of athletic ability along with a good work ethic. a willing disposition, a lot of ambition and a lot of natural forward impulsion. These cannot be taught. A good prospect is born with them. Occupations like roping, barrel racing, reining and Dressage all have these as prerequisites. This horse failed the test when you bought him. When they had to give you sharp spurs to make him go, you should have said something like "I like a lot of things about this horse, but I do not believe he is what I am looking for!" and then you should have kept on looking.

Now, I can tell you how you can get him to listen better and move from your leg. You probably will not believe me or want to do it, but I can promise you it will work. It will not work well enough to make a good Dressage prospect out of him, but it will make him ride much better and much more tuned in to your leg. It will make him a much better 'ride' and allow you to sell him for a much better price when you decide to get a better Dressage prospect.

Trade your 'closed' English reins for a pair of 7-8 foot long western 'heavy' harness leather reins. Then, change your complete way of thinks about escalating an aids until you finally get a response. This is only 'nagging' at its worst. When you gradually escalate the pressure until you finally get the desired response, you have insured that it will always take that much or more pressure to get a good response. The horse will see no reason to listen better. That is 'nagging'! It is like yelling at a child when the child will not listen to your soft voice. Pretty soon, you are yelling all of the time and child is still not responding. [Sound familiar to anyone?]

This horse has NOT become dead sided. I'll bet he will still flick his skin when a fly lands on his light summer hair coat. He has become dead-brained. He has chosen to 'tune out' light pressure and light aids. They have become meaning less to him. You must retrain his brain to listen to your 'soft voice' or it will be very unpleasant. Now:

1) Ask him to move forward with a very light squeeze.

2) Ask him again with a slightly harder squeeze (not a hard kick).

3) Now -- *hold him back* and 'over and under' him about 3 times -- very hard -- with your heavy harness leather reins.

4) Release his head and ask again with a very light squeeze.

5) If he does not move forward willingly, repeat 1-4 again. I have not ridden the so called 'dead-sided' horse that does not move right off from the light squeeze.

Now, it is VERY important that you do not use the heavy reins to threaten him. This is why I never use a whip for this. The rider just trades the spurs in for the whip and pretty soon they are threatening, nagging and constantly pecking on the horse with the whip and he is as respectful of it as he was the old spurs.

This does not work if you do not hold the horse back and NOT let him move forward until you ask with the light squeeze that you want him to start listening to all of the time.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

^^^ this. 
Good for you Cherie! I wasn't brave enough to mention this method myself.


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## franknbeans (Jun 7, 2007)

I cannot like Cherie's post enough! Need more likes!!


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The horse might have been ridden with spurs all his life, but incorrectly.
He either was ridden by someone that went to the spur for the initial cue, giving the horse no reason to respond to light leg alone, Or, he was ridden by someone that put a true spur stop on him, where that horse is ridden with constant spur pressure, esp at the lope, to rate that horse on a loose rein. That type of horse becomes a 'one trick pony', and unfortunately the type that was produced BY SOME western pl trainers, to allow their clients to have an easy 'button'. fortunately, that spur stop is being spoken out against, just like 'peanut rolling was in the past' This type of horse is hard to get past that spur intimidation to move forward

A horse ridden correctly with spurs, is far from un responsive, but rather very light to leg aids alone, seldom needing to be touched by a spur

I, like Cheri, never ride a young horse with spurs, until they know leg aids for every basic maneuver

Riding with spurs correctly, require several things

-a horse started well enough so he understands leg aids and basic body control, softness, ect-in other words, well started

_ a rider with an independant seat, so he only touches a horse with the spur if he intends to

_ a rider that always asks with the leg first, then only adds spur pressure, and just enough spur pressure, to get that response to non compliance to light leg, thus never needing to kick a horse, to get desired response

Always going back the next time,asking with light leg alone.
A horse thus ridden with spurs, responds to very light invisible leg cues alone, as he knows if he does not, you will go to the spur, but only then

Does not mean you have to always ride that horse with spurs, to have that light response, as I never trail ride with spurs, but my horses respond to light leg aids alone
I, and people that show, do ride with spurs, just in case, as you need to have that horse respond every time, to light invisible leg aids, versus correcting the horse in a more obvious manner, if needed.


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## Dreamcatcher Arabians (Nov 14, 2010)

My first thought is, "Then sell him and let him go be a western pleasure horse if he likes to be slow.". But like Cherie, I know you can liven him up, if you WILL.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Dreamcatcher Arabians said:


> My first thought is, "Then sell him and let him go be a western pleasure horse if he likes to be slow.". But like Cherie, I know you can liven him up, if you WILL.


Slow, alone a western pleasure horse does not make-at least one that is competitive
He sounds more like a horse that was ridden by someone using spurs as the way he always cued the horse, tot he point the horse became tuned out
A little more history and breeding on this horse, including who he was ridden by, and where, would be useful
If someone always slapped you to get a response, would you be motivated to try and respond better, or would you just develop a feeling of helplessness, and thicker skin?
A good western pleasure horse knows, by cues, when to move like a western pl horse, but is also able to move out, when asked to. I trail ride mine, including with gaited horses, and have no trouble keeping up, and can also chase cows on them
In fact, in a good program, long trotting is sued a lot, to develop strength in a western pl horse, as is the counter canter


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Going back and reading the post, I very much doubt that this horse \s lack of forward, is due to having had aspur stop put on him, as he just sounds 'un -trained, and a horse much like a pony, always ridden by kids, who either kicked and kicked or jerked on the mouth, that all cues become tuned out by the horse, as he was never rewarded for being light, thus now performs at minimal effort, just grinning and baring any aids, including artificial aids
I also wonder why you bought such a horse, esp since this problem was evident when you tried him out, unless the price was so cheap, you thought trying to re -training him was a worthwhile gamble
I might show my horses in western pl, besides other events, but they respond to a whisper or suggestion of a leg aid to pick up any gait, and hold it, until asked to do otherwise


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cherie said:


> First of all, he has not 'shut down'. This is not a case of 'learned helplessness'. He has simply 'tuned you out'. I can also promise you that 'positive reinforcement' will not make him be one tiny bit more forward. .... I don't want to seem catty or snide, but


But that sure sounds it to me! Cherie, fwiw, people do use different terms, and IMO 'tuned you out' is just another way of saying 'shut down' or 'dead sides' to the aids. So perhaps you should have clarified, rather than just fobbed off. And I can 'promise' you that effective and well used positive reinforcement will indeed be helpful. Not that I expect you to believe me, because you don't do that. Just be nice if you didn't bag what you don't understand.

Now for what I don't get about yours... I agree fully that the horse needs to learn there will be heavy consequences(unfortunate but IMO necessary when they've *been trained* to be dead to legs/tuned out), but I wonder, why the need to hold the horse back? Why won't it work otherwise? I've done just this, many times(with reins or a crop/stick), without holding them back, and I haven't noticed it not working myself.

And I've heard you say before that you hate whips, but I don't quite get why? You describe here how people often 'nag' with them, of which I also agree thoroughly is unhelpful, but what's the difference between a whip or reins if *used effectively*? Or have you just only ever seen a whip used to nag? I think the way you described gradually increasing increments of punishment which often just desensitises the horse to 'lesser' aids is a lot more relevant than what you choose to use, so long as it's something that CAN be used effectively.



> a good work ethic. a willing disposition, a lot of ambition and a lot of natural forward impulsion. These cannot be taught.


Disagree with that one. Of course horses can indeed be innately more 'trainable' than others, and of course to be truly great at certain sports, that's helpful, and of course a horse who has become so 'sour' due to prior training probably won't become great at that, despite how he may have been born... But 'work ethic' & 'willing disposition' is absolutely to do with training, and you CAN ABSOLUTELY train that into a horse. Even one who's previously learned that humans are a drudge. But I can promise you that if you only use negative reinforcement & punishment, then you won't be able to retrain that. Perhaps not even train it into one who hasn't innately got a lot of it already.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i agree with quite a few of Loosie's points, and also never got the point of holding the horse back. Holding the horse back, then getting after him for not having forward, seems kinda contradictory
I can see using that on a horse that has learned to try and trot into a lope transition, versus driving up into it from behind , by instead trotting faster and faster, until he falls into it-but on a dull horse with no 'forward?
I also agree that a poor work ethic can be man made. If a horse gets no reward for try, by that person just initially going to the spur, how then is a good work ethic promoted ?


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I have seen Cherie post this advice on a couple of different threads. I had a friend that ha nagged their horse with a crop. I mean it was literally tap, tap, tap, and sometimes those taps didn't even land on the horse.

Anyway this rider was complaining about always falling way behind a group and then the horse trotting to catch up......falling behind, trotting to catch up.

He asked if I knew how to fix this. I explained that I never had the issue, but if he was willing to let me get after his horse, I could try.

I used Cherie's method and that horse has truly changed. He walks out with energy and what seems like true interest.

I only had to do it twice. So, I'm a believer. It works.

Thank you Cherie.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i get the ask, ask louder, then demand, versus picking at a horse.
I don't get holding them back , while enforcing the forward, unless you wish collected departures, versus a horse being lazy and using forward momentum to pick up a gait, esp the lope


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

Well I tried out horses in several different states (none of these horses were cheaply priced either including this one) and ran into so many with health and soundness issues, training gaps and this one was the best match and met all of my criteria barring the pokiness. If I hadn't gotten even the least bit of progress to get him to move forward without using sharp spurs on him I would've sold him by now. As I've mentioned before, the progress has been slow but taxing on me. I'd prefer he be the one drenched in sweat not me. He is a WB and was trained in h/j. He did compete in the Maclays earlier in his life and has been used a children's hunter horse for the most part. I don't believe he was used for western pleasure but his inclination to peanut-roll suggests that he may have been at some point. He came from a barn where he was stalled all the time, everyone rides in spurs, in the same brand saddle, wears the same clothing, and every horse eats the exact same grain imported from Europe. 

When I first brought him home he was terrified of everything in our outdoor arena including the wind, rain, rabbits, deer, gates squeaking, etc. He would spook, bolt, and run sideways. He now lives outside with a shelter and has become more acclimated to “the outdoors.” He no longer spooks at wildlife or when ridden in windy or inclement weather. I plan to get him onto the trails when I can coordinate times with a riding buddy. 

One thing I tried differently today was riding him bareback in a halter and working on upward transitions through increasing pressure solely with leg squeezes. He responded much more promptly this way. Better than what I've previously been getting out of him but still not the miraculous blast off fix. I think it probably has to do with the sudden change in routine more than anything though. On the ground, he'll respond to pressure from both your hand or a crop. He will trot easily in hand with just a smooch. The discrepancy is in riding. 



Smilie said:


> i agree with quite a few of Loosie's points, and also never got the point of holding the horse back. Holding the horse back, then getting after him for not having forward, seems kinda contradictory
> I can see using that on a horse that has learned to try and trot into a lope transition, versus driving up into it from behind , by instead trotting faster and faster, until he falls into it-but on a dull horse with no 'forward?
> I also agree that a poor work ethic can be man made. If a horse gets no reward for try, by that person just initially going to the spur, how then is a good work ethic promoted ?


I was also found this contradictory as well and am not quite certain I am grasping this method. Do you mind further clarifying your technique, Cherie?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

I remember the first time I read Cherie describe this technigue, and I felt confused , too. the thread was on how to get a horse to have a good work ethic , or something like that. and the discussion was on building the hrose's responsiveness by rewarding the smallest try. and, getting FORWARD, even if it meant that the horse lunged forward into a canter, when all you really wanted was a brisker trot.

I believe , as she explained, the point is 
1. you want the horse to learn to go from the soft ask, and

2. you do not want the horse's upward transition to be the one that is lunging forward from a very firm 'ask'

when you start small, ask, tell, THEN demand, and when horse lunges forward from your huge demand, your horse learns that he has step level "ask", and step level "tell" to pass through before something really WILL happen, and him knowing that the big whack is coming after step 2, means he will go up to just before that level, every time, and then lunge forward . makes for bad transistions and a habit of anticipating .

by asking softely once, maybe twice , at most, and then whaling on the horse AND shutting his resultant forward lunge down you are saying. "No. not that kind of a departure. you missed your chance and I won't accept that sort of departure becuase you heard me ask twice, and you KNOW your job"

that's how I understood her explanation, but I might be able to find it in her own words, or she can.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I have done as Cherie describes. 

I don't describe things very well, perhaps, but I would explain it as 'ask, if the horse doesn't respond, it gets a good butt-whooping.' It sure wakes them up and they really do pay attention and respond with only a couple lessons like this.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Boots -- You are exactly right. If you just keep escalating the pressure, you are training them to require that much pressure and you are teaching them that it is OK to ignore the light 'ask' that you would really like them to listen to. You are teaching them to lurch forward and not respond correctly.

If you hold one back and make it take a butt spanking, you 'wake' him up and teach him to listen and respond correctly to your lightest 'ask'. It does not work if you do NOT hold him back. And it usually takes twice. The third time he listens and responds.

I found that I could make horses so light that I could imperceptibly tighten an upper calf muscle, never move my foot or lower leg and have horses move into a passage or into a very collected canter, never move their head and never move their tails. I could get lead changes with horses staying perfectly straight, some every 2 or 3 strides without a single 'tail swish'. 

The problem was, no one else could ride them (ask my husband when we first got married) and I lived in Western Colorado and the was no where to show a Dressage horse and no one appreciated the skill or wanted to learn how to do it -- so I went to Quarter Horses and western training -- of course falling into reining and cow work. I mostly just did all of this and developed all of these techniques for my own amusement -- just to see if I could do it. I knew the same horse that needed spurs and constant nagging still flicked his skin when a fly landed. The nerves were there and they were still connected to his brain -- it was the learning and their acknowledgement of the rider that was missing. This woke them up.

Remember -- I said you wouldn't believe me and you would not want to do it. Most people don't. I have had very few people that did not completely dismiss the idea and go off thinking I was an idiot. [ps I never saw them ride a very light and very responsive horse.]

The reason I said this was not a very good prospect is because the really 'good' prospects do not require this. They tend to be more like the 'coiled spring' just waiting (hopefully) to be asked to uncoil a little of that spring. Horses you have to 'push' just do not make the team. This is why you see more horses the have been 'blown up' coming from the better trainers. They know that they need that coiled spring. They just have to be good enough to keep it under control. They would have all 'passed' on this horse (as would I). The good dressage prospect for a novice is one that is somewhere in between the slow poke and the tightly coiled spring.

And NO! This horse is not a good western pleasure prospect. First of all -- he is the wrong breed. Secondly, modern WP horses are very collected and the day of the 'peanut roller' is long gone (thankfully). This horse would just clunk along on his front end. He is never going to be a good Dressage horse, but he can be waked up and be much more responsive than he is now. It is just not much fun to ride a horse where you have to work harder than they are willing to work for you.

Now, I would like to hear back from anyone that actually tries this. 

[Sara -- thank you for trusting me enough to try this. The results can be pretty dramatic.] 
Cheri


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

In the past I have used the method that Cherie has explained and it has worked really well for me when I had to use it.
I used a crop though as I had English reins and when I apply this method, I am not asking the horse to move forward, what I am saying is "wake up horse, this is your Captain speaking" then when I have the horses complete attention I ask nicely for him to move forward and what do you know he understands and complies nicely.
I usually only had to do this once with a horse and then we were working on the same wave length. A rider has to be consistent after with their leg aides and the horse understands and works with you instead of ignoring you.
I think once the horse is moving forward on a light leg aid it is much more pleasant for the rider and I would imagine for the horse as well not to be constantly nagged at.


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

That's why I said I wasn't brave enough, I didn't want to explain it as most people wouldn't understand. I'm glad some do.
This isn't for the faint of heart, nor is it the first thing tried. You have to know the horse is ready, timing is key. I've never used it on a greenie.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The ask and demand is a general technique, and I was not referring to a good collected transition, as from a standstill to alope departure. Of course, you then ask the horse to keep his topline and form, and to pick up that lope without changing it, and for that you do need to HOLD while DRIVING the horse up into it from behind
Yes, that does have a horse pick up a gait with the whisper of a leg, but i always though of it as a technique for a more 'finished horse', one that understood collection and how to move in frame, just never though of it in context of teaching a 'dead head' to move forward. See where it would work, if not 'pretty'
This is a WB, so I find it rather insulting that just because the horse moves like some poorly trained western pl horse, it is assumed he must have been shown western pl at some point!
If he was , it was someone at a loca; level, trying to make a' poodle into a guard dog', and in other words, someone without a clue!
There are plenty of other disciplines out there, with people in it practicing poor training techniques, that can create a horse like this, including dressage, using Rolkur, and getting a horse behind the vertical, but I suspect this horse was just poorly trained-period, and allowed to become 'nag like' POnies, trained by kids, are not the only ones that suffer this level of training!


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

This is not for 'green' horses. It is for horses that know how to do it right and choose to ignore the light aids. It is a 'wake-up call' to the horse that really knows better. 

I would still rather work with the horse that has a more 'trainable' disposition and attitude and is inherently more willing. This is definitely bred into a horse. I have sold many mares and more than one stallion because I did not like the way their foals rode. This is why I prefer to ride mares before I breed them. Some people may think that all horses are created equal or nearly equal. This is just not so. If it was, I would not still be breeding prospects when I could buy them for $.10 on the $1.00. That is how important I think it is to raise good horses that have bred in trainability.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

In essence, if I am understanding it right, holding the horse back while whipping it ensures it is seen as "punishment" for ignoring the light ask. I don't want to dig out the old cavalry manual, but they would use spurs instead of a whip and "attack" the horse for deliberate disobedience. The French proverb taught at Samur was "*The horse should think God is on his back and the Devil is at his belly*".

I don't train horses and I haven't owned many and I don't compete, so *FWIW*:

To teach a horse a softer cue, you escalate. You start with a kiss or small squeeze, and work your way up until the horse responds. If the horse doesn't respond until a kick, that is OK because he is learning. Keep the sequence, and eventually the horse will figure out "_He always gives a light bump of the heel before a kick, so I might as well go at a light bump_". You now have a "new cue" to move - a light bump of the heel. Eventually, the horse will notice you always give a light squeeze before the light bump, and decide he might as well move at the light squeeze. You now have a "new cue" for go faster - a light squeeze. Eventually you will TEACH a very light cue. For me, with my horses and what I do, I like a combination of light squeeze with the calf and a kiss combined. That is light enough for me.

But that is teaching what "X" means for a horse to do. There is no reason why I could not train a horse to go faster if I squeezed his withers between my fingers. It is just teaching them "When I do X, I want you to do Y".

Once they know "X means Y" - once you have established the new cue - you do NOT continue using an escalating sequence. Once you reach the cue the horse understands, it needs to go. If it doesn't, then it needs to have an unhappy experience - because it is rebelling. And horses are not just more pleasant to ride if they obey the human. They are safer, because we ask them to do things (walk around traffic or near drop-offs, for example) where doing something wrong can kill them (and us).

What unhappy outcome results depends on the horse. Some horses accept punishment quite phlegmatically. Others accept "fair" punishment, but bitterly resent "unfair" - and the horse decides what is fair or not. If you have the skill to read the horse and apply punishment that is timed right and fair in the horse's eyes, it is said to be very effective - even with a sensitive horse. But you must be able to read the horse.

The US Cavalry was fond of thoroughbreds and Arabians. The manual says punishment done right is very effective, but done wrong will result in a bitter, antagonistic horse. It cautions that someone who cannot apply the punishment correctly and appropriately is better to never punish the horse at all.

Here is my very limited experience: I carry a leather strap on the horn - one of the short ones barrel racers tend to use. It sits there months at a time unused. A couple times a year, one of my horses will ignore a light cue to go faster. They are, by temperament, harder to stop than they are hard to get going. I generally need to worry about how I'm going to stop them, not how I'm going to get them to go faster.

But once in a great while, my horse won't go faster when asked. Not even with a firm squeeze! Then I pull off the strap and smack my leg with it, hard and loud! That usually results in a leap forward, a shift to a higher gear, and ample speed. Again, that is MY horses and their nature.

OTOH, I took a lesson some years back on a horse who was an expert at ignoring the leg. The instructor let me wear my 180 lbs out kicking as hard as I could, and the horse would not trot. Then she came over and snuck a crop to me, hiding it from the horse. She told me to keep it close to the saddle, ask for a trot with a light squeeze - and when the horse ignored me, to hit him very hard one time on the rump. I followed her plan, and the "Whack!" was followed by a trot. And for the remainder of the lesson, the horse responded to a light squeeze.

Her point, she said, was that some horses won't be serious unless their rider is serious. And in some cases, the horse needs to understand that means the rider will punish until the RIDER decides it is enough.

For the most part, with my horses and given my marginal skill, I do not punish a horse. The closest I've come was when Bandit bucked because I didn't let him trot beside Trooper and was insisting on a walk. He started bucking (on pavement) and I tried to tear his head off. I wanted his head UP, not DOWN, and I had no interest in his happiness.

He has balked a couple of times - not because he was afraid, but because he didn't WANT to - and that has resulted in some hard treatment. Turning around and leaving, or taking another route because he wants another route, is not an option.

But in my case, Tom Roberts' rules of "That will profit you not" and "Quiet persistence" have generally sufficed.

In this case - and remember, I claim no particular training ability for myself - I would be curious WHY the horse is willing to go fast when not ridden, but refuses with a rider. I'm not blaming the OP, because what happened to a horse a year ago can guide its behavior today.

Cowboy, for example, had 6 previous owners. He has been used for barrel racing by small kids (he is 13.0 hands) and gaming. He was used (poorly) as a lesson horse. He was free, with free delivery. Put him in an arena, and he is a scared, unhappy, resentful horse.

Put him on a trail with another horse (he likes company), and he is forward, eager, willing, sensible, alert, interacts with his rider, etc. He is fully engaged, trusting and HAPPY - on a trail with another horse. After 3 years, he is now tolerating some brief arena work, probably because he now understands it will be followed with a trail ride.

Trooper arrived badly marked and cut after being loaned to a ranch and brutally spurred. 7 years later, the scar has disappeared on his left side, but his right side still has a scar the size of the palm of my hand.

He did NOT associate it with spurs. He associated it with COWBOY HATS. You could walk up and scratch his nose wearing a ball cap. He knocked a 36' hole in our corral, sending 3 sections of 12' panels flying, when approached by someone wearing a cowboy hat. It took a good trainer 4.5 weeks, 5 sessions a week, to get him past his fear of...cowboy hats.

The point of that story is that the horse may blame something - a dressage saddle or a way of holding the reins - that is completely innocent with being ridden in a way that had no reward for going forward. It doesn't have to have anything to do with the current rider, just as cowboy hats and being spurred had nothing to do with each other.

So if it were me, my first response with the OP's horse might be to take it for walks on a lead line out on roads, trails, whatever. Then try riding it, and maybe walking for an hour on a trail. See if the horse might want to trot to keep up with another horse trotting in the open.

Mia, for example, was excited by going fast in an arena...until she figured out we were not going anywhere. Then it became a bore to her. She would DO it, but she saw no point in it. On a trail, stretching to the horizon...egads! but she could run - run a lot more than I wanted her to do!

I'm not saying Cherie's method would not work, particularly with someone who is good at reading a horse. I suspect it would work well, with the right rider. I just doubt I'm the right rider.

But my first choice would be to try to figure out a way to get the horse to WANT to go faster. I spent over 25 years in the military. There is a huge difference between a leader and a commander. As a rider, I want to lead horses, not command them. I may accept command as the minimum level acceptable, but I want a horse to enjoy being ridden. 

And that can sometimes mean selling the horse, if what the horse enjoys and what I enjoy do not match. Some horses have no business being ridden in an arena. Some love it. Some can learn to love it. Some never will.


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## Beling (Nov 3, 2009)

_"But my first choice would be to try to figure out a way to get the horse to WANT to go faster. . . .As a rider, I want to lead horses, not command them. I may accept command as the minimum level acceptable, but I want a horse to enjoy being ridden."

_I absolutely agree. As a non-competitor my interest is being WITH my horse, not AT it.


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## Dustbunny (Oct 22, 2012)

"And that can sometimes mean selling the horse, if what the horse enjoys and what I enjoy do not match. Some horses have no business being ridden in an arena. Some love it. Some can learn to love it. Some never will. "

Yep, bsms.


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## Textan49 (Feb 13, 2015)

It sounds like the horse has only been worked in an indoor since he initially spooked outdoors. I would be very curious to see how different he might ride outside of any arena situation such as trails or an open area like a polo field. 

I am not going to question why the OP bought this horse in the first place, or if he can ever be the dressage horse she is looking for. The fact is that she owns him now and has a problem to work through.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Because my mare had been soured prior to my getting her she would periodically revert to her old ways. I brought her to the point where a featherlight touch on a rein then a touch with the calf muscle and she'd step into canter. When her old ways surfaced she'd partly shut down. I'd ask again and if she was still like that I'd ask and a rap of the crop on her rib behind my leg let her know I meant business. She'd be good for months before testing me again.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

Beling said:


> _"But my first choice would be to try to figure out a way to get the horse to WANT to go faster. . . .As a rider, I want to lead horses, not command them. I may accept command as the minimum level acceptable, but I want a horse to enjoy being ridden."
> 
> _I absolutely agree. As a non-competitor my interest is being WITH my horse, not AT it.


Oh, I agree, and don't know anyone who doesn't prefer that.

But, once a bad habit is ingrained, and after an owner tries for several months and is frustrated, the method described by Cherie will work. (No reason to wait that long, IMO) And it is much more humane than selling the horse to be most likely pushed (beaten) in an inconsistent, ineffective manner.

Personally, I love to find horses that don't respond to cues as the OP describes. I get them super cheap, wake them up, and find them happy homes with people who ride with a purpose. 

I met a woman once who's horse became like this. She sat on him for hours, many days, thinking she would out-wait his unwillingness to go. He could not have cared less. She finally gave up and fed him forever. Oh. And came up with some tale of how she imagined he had been abused.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Well, the difference between a horse that is barely going forward with much nagging and a horse that has had a good 'wake-up call' is the difference between night and day. The first one has his ears back and is miserable, trying to do as little as possible, dragging its toes in the dirt and riding heavily on the forehand. The horse with the wake-up will move willingly, keep its ears up, collect and ride into the bridle and move much more pleasantly. There is as much difference in the horse's happiness as there is in the rider's happiness.

I do not know how people get it into their heads that when you spank a horse for behaving badly, he becomes some bullied, miserable horse that is working out of fear. It is quite the opposite. Actually, it is the spoiled horse and the misbehaving horse that is miserable. These are the horses with their ears back, taking no interest in anything and hating everything the rider asks and hating every move they 'have' to make. They are barely compliant enough to go at all.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The horse that has been 'straightened out' is about 1000 x happier than the spoiled or uncooperative one.

Most of the time there is no bad fitting saddle or back pain or a bad tooth. There is just an uncooperative horse that no one has taught the value of trying to get along. They have, instead, just nagged and pecked on the poor horse while he put forth less and less cooperation. Sometimes it just takes a good 'attitude adjustment' for a complete change.

It is much easier to 'be with' a horse that wants to go forward willingly. It is pretty difficult to 'be with' one that is barely dragging along with its ears back. It is not much fun for either of you if you are working harder than the horse.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cherie said:


> It does not work if you do NOT hold him back. And it usually takes twice. The third time he listens and responds.


It DOES indeed work, IME, to punish without holding back. Again, I don't get this assertion. As Smilie put it, seems contradictory to me.



> Remember -- I said you wouldn't believe me and you would not want to do it. Most people don't. I have had very few people that did not completely dismiss the idea and go off thinking I was an idiot.


That sounds just a tiny bit condescending to me. Why do you think people don't believe you? Could it be the way you put things?



> Now, I would like to hear back from anyone that actually tries this.


I'd like to hear the answers to my questions of the specifics, as I'm not adverse at all to considering other methods, just not going to 'trust' on blind faith, if you won't explain.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

To BSMS, I agree with the principle of 'ask nicely', ask a bit firmer, firmer still & then DEMAND. I think the mistake - and 'nagging'/desensitising is in the timing. You want to be clearer, not just 'heavier' with stuff when teaching a horse, so you need to do it in such a way that the horse has no question that your *first* cue(not the bomp, but the cue you WANT the horse to respond to), is connected with the undesirable consequence. Many people seem to 'dribble' up to *meaningful* consequences, to stick on the 'just bump/light tap' too long. Some people will spend many seconds at each 'level', whereas IME it's generally best to escalate to the 'demand' level(assuming it's appropriate to do so at alll) *within* a couple of seconds - wham bam, thankyou maam!



> I do not know how people get it into their heads that when you spank a horse for behaving badly, he becomes some bullied, miserable horse that is working out of fear. It is quite the opposite. Actually, it is the spoiled horse and the misbehaving horse that is miserable.


Agree in principle with this, but I think it's because so many people don't understand how to be *effective* and *clear* in training, and to understand/use punishment effectively. It is often the case that the horse does the 'wrong' thing because the person isn't clear/he hasn't learned 'better', then the punishment for it is a confusing & frightening thing(or just a begrudging thing to learn to put up with, if it's only 'nagging').

I think the mindset of 'deserving punishment for behaving badly' gets in the way of this though, as people imagine the horse is being willfully 'Bad' rather than either un- or badly-trained to do just what he's doing... so needing to be *taught* better, not just punished for 'naughtiness'. Then punishment just becomes the 'bad consequence' that some behaviour(or lack of response) incurs. It's about making 'right' things work for the horse & 'wrong' things not work/unpleasant.

And BTW, forgot to ask, what exactly were you talking about when saying people don't believe you & think you're an idiot? Is it punishing the horse strongly at all, or is it about my questions - your assertion that you must hold the horse there to be punished, and that whips don't work, only reins?


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

loosie said:


> It DOES indeed work, IME, to punish without holding back. Again, I don't get this assertion.


I won't answer for Cherie, but will relate my experience.

Sure you can over and under with western reins, or get after a cheating horse with a crop, and not hold them back. And it will definitely have an effect.

They will lunge forward, rear, or buck. Most often, with the average QH, lunge forward. 

But, IME, it takes more repetitions of the lesson, and then you also still have to work on smooth transitions once they are moving off light cues.


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

Textan49 said:


> I am not going to question why the OP bought this horse in the first place, or if he can ever be the dressage horse she is looking for. The fact is that she owns him now and has a problem to work through.


Yes all you Captain Hindsights out there parroting the same question over and over again. The answer to this issue is just so simple. Time travel! I mean if everyone just bought the perfectly flawless horse in the first place there would be no purpose to having a training forum available. Pointless snarkiness aside, I've already reiterated my reasons for choosing this horse and quite frankly it seems to have fallen on deaf ears. Parroting the same patronizing question and launching an OP witch hunt is not going to fix the issue I have now. I do however, highly appreciate the input and suggestions given to me directed towards actually trying to help resolve the issue. I have only had him for a few months and I want to ensure I have exhausted every option available before moving on. 

My horse's pasturemate also derived from a similar background and his people have the same issue with him. Their solution was to ride him in sharper spurs. Is I've reiterated before, I don't want to go that route with my horse and don't believe it's appropriate in the least. My horse's peanut-rolling habit seems remarkably reminiscent of what I've seen from western pleasure horses. I don't know if someone else who worked with him did WP, HUS, or rolkurred him into oblivion. I don't have a magic crystal ball to know every minute detail of his past. The history I have told you is the history his previous owner disclosed to me. 

My friend snapped a pic of me and the saddle fit on me is far worse than I initially thought it was. It's now more obvious to me why he was more receptive bareback. The flap of the saddle ends down at my ankle and my knee is going over the edge of the flap. It also has me pitched back behind the motion which is impeding his incentive to maintain forward. A new saddle is not going to be the panacea to such a deeply ingrained problem but it is certainly only functioning as a hindrance to us right now. Finding a saddle that fits both me and the horse at this moment will be a costly endeavor. 

If this horse competed in the Maclays he probably had trainability bred into him and a good work ethic at the start. It's been soured overtime through his lifelong experiences. I will try Cherie's method this upcoming weekend while I have ample time to work thoroughly with him. I want to make it count.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

I wish you well with your horse. He will likely come out of all this nonsense.



I never fret much about a horse's past. They are generally very adaptable to whatever the present offers. I think that might be why I do okay with the ones that have been goofed up. Babies, on the other hand, bore me.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

boots said:


> They will lunge forward, rear, or buck. Most often, with the average QH, lunge forward.
> 
> But, IME, it takes more repetitions of the lesson, and then you also still have to work on smooth transitions once they are moving off light cues.


Thanks for giving your take on this specific Boots. Yes, lunging forward is a normal reaction to "S***! That was a shock!" but I haven't personally had a horse rear or buck because of it. Ever. Not that I'll say never. Haven't really thought about it, but I'd feel holding them back could make rearing more likely. 

I also haven't found that many repetitions are needed at all for the horse to learn 'I'd better heed the signals to avoid future punishment'. If it took a lot of repetitions, this is one sign to me that a method is not all that effective. 

Escalating to 'meaningful' punishment is not where it matters, IMO, to get 'smooth transitions'(you're not getting any transition when you're holding the horse back anyway) - that happens with softer cues and the 1-3 times I might have to cause a reaction, rather than a response, are pretty much irrelevant to that.


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## boots (Jan 16, 2012)

loosie said:


> Escalating to 'meaningful' punishment is not where it matters, IMO, to get 'smooth transitions'(you're not getting any transition when you're holding the horse back anyway) - that happens with softer cues and the 1-3 times I might have to cause a reaction, rather than a response, are pretty much irrelevant to that.


True. But with the "hold them back" method, you do ask again for a transition, a nice transition, asked with quiet legs and seat, with the horse paying attention.

With the "let them lurch forward" method, you haven't asked for a forward transition in the way you want to. Softly.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't expect most people to see or understand how or why this process works. I am not being condescending. I am just being realistic from years of trying to explain how some of the methods work on spoiled (or in this case -- an overly desensitized horse that has become numb). It is no different with the occasional horse that needs to be laid down. There are times when it works and is the only thing that works.

This method of waking up a numb, dull horse that has lost its 'forward impulsion' absolutely works on he right horse in the right situation. I would surely try it on this horse. And NO! Using a crop or spurs or reins without holding the horse back is not nearly as effective. Boots and couple of others fully understand how and why it works. You want the horse to start taking you seriously and do what you know it is fully capable of doing. You want the horse to do it correctly with very light pressure. This accomplishes that very well.

I prefer the long reins and the 'over and under' for a couple of reasons. 

First, it is so tempting and natural to threaten a horse with a whip or use a spur for an initial or second request when the horse KNOWS how to respond correctly to the lightest squeeze. It takes a lot more effort and when a rider gets adept at using the over & under, you can EFFECTIVELY spank a horse before he knows what got him.

Second, most riders use a whip in their right hand. Many horses learn to duck around the opposite direction. The over & under catches them on both sides nearly simultaneously and leaves no question in their minds that 'forward' is what you were asking for. I usually hold the heavy reins in my right hand but I catch them on the left side first and then very quickly catch them on the right, left and right before they can blink. 

After doing this -- usually twice -- sometimes only once -- but usually twice, I take two or three rides where I swing the reins and flop them around so they do not get afraid of the reins. Just like I would not want a horse to get paranoid about a whip, I do not want them to fear the reins or a rope swinging.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

THIS horse needs a break from Dressage! He needs to learn to be a horse again. The overbending and resistance is obvious. I would take him out of training and teach him to be a pleasure horse for awhile, like until May or June. Teach him to race, maybe get together with three friends and play some horse soccer. Borrow a Western saddle and trail ride on a loose rein. He needs to believe that there is a life outside of drilling collection and competition. He is just plain burned out. If you do this, he will LOVE you for it. Then you can reintroduce the Dressage in pieces and let him show YOU what he knows and GUSH over it.
Alois Podjawsky firmly believed that a Dressage horse should be ridden out of doors and not overdo it in the arena. Competition sometimes turns trainers into tyrants.


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

This horse has had a month long break since I had surgery a while ago. During this time he's had time to adjust to the "outdoor life" and has become far less spooky about things. We only have an outdoor arena and he's become much better about working in it. I've been riding him at the most 3x a week. I don't believe he was ridden on the trails before since he was a spooky mess going on them. He's improved significantly going with a riding buddy. My plan is to take him on the trails more often when I can coordinate times with a riding buddy. He seems to have a bit of a better attitude about riding bareback probably because it's a change in routine (and because the saddle fit isn't hindering us).


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

The horse sounds just not broke.
Certainly no western pleasure training, or that horse would respond to invisible leg cues and hold frame and execute correct movement-no prodding.
The horse is also the wrong breed, and even if someone tries to show him in open shows in western pl, he is not bred, nor would be trained, nor expected to move like a stock horse, thus not screwed up in the manner some stock horses are, with those expectations achieved by ineptitude training
No other breeds,attempting their version of western pleasure,are asked to move with a level top line, and on a completely loose rein
A horse that does not ride outside, has been allowed to become 'lazy, move incorrectly has just had someone stealing some rides on him, in the horse's comfort zone, until this horse lost all work ethics, became arena sour and now indeed , needs someone to respond correctly to his 'make me attitude'
At times, I am also amazed at what some people are willing to pay, just because a horse is classified as 'warmblood" !

Just went back and read that he 'races around at mac speed, when lunged' As this just confirms that the horse simply is not what I consider broke,, doing his won thing, on the lunge line and under saddle, spooking when ridden out.
Lunging is work session, same as riding, with any of my horses going as they are expected to go under saddle
Ride him out alone, since he is 'broke' and dead. he sould wake up , and learn to pay attention to his rider
Things here really do not fit, in my mind, for this horse to ever have had any credible training in nay discipline!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cherie said:


> I don't expect most people to see or understand how or why this process works. I am not being condescending.


Whether you're meaning to or not, that is absolutely condescending in my book. And to say 'I don't expect people to believe me'... could it be that's what gets people's hackles up, not HOW you do something??



> This method of waking up a numb, dull horse that has lost its 'forward impulsion' absolutely works on he right horse in the right situation. I would surely try it on this horse. And NO! Using a crop or spurs or reins without holding the horse back is not nearly as effective. Boots and couple of others fully understand how and why it works. You want the horse to start taking you seriously


I personally happen to have no doubt that on 'the right horse in the right situation' your method works Cherie. Despite your assertion that people won't believe you. That's not the issue. The issue is your assertion, without explanation, about your need of those specifics, and why you feel, despite others being effective without them, that YOU can't do without them, that you cannot be effective with a whip, without holding the horse back, etc.



> First, it is so tempting and natural to threaten a horse with a whip or use a spur for an initial or second request when the horse KNOWS how to respond correctly to the lightest squeeze. It takes a lot more effort and when a rider gets adept at using the over & under, you can EFFECTIVELY spank a horse before he knows what got him.


OK, so you're saying you believe most people don't know how to use whips or spurs effectively and you believe it's easier for someone like that to 'become adept' at using reins like that instead?



> The over & under catches them on both sides nearly simultaneously and leaves no question in their minds that 'forward' is what you were asking


OK, excepting that you're expressly NOT asking for forward, you're holding him back?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

OP, I did not mean to come off as rude with my , "why did you buy him?" Comment. It's just that all your remRks in your initial post were negative regarding this horse, In particular as a dressage prospect, thus I was baffled as to why you bought him .

Is it possible for you to cease dressage riding for a bit and do only trail riding , and get out with another rider so you can work on some rides that stimulate the horses competitive drive ?


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

I don't think this horse is that 'un-broke'. He is certainly not trained in the manner some of us trainers want a horse to be trained. He has had an owner that only used longeing for exercise and had no idea of how to use it for obedience. But this horse was shown in youth H/J shows at a fairly high level and that requires more than 'stealing' rides. I think he has become dull, unresponsive and is a terrible Dressage prospect (or any other arena occupation). He is basically a 'flunk-out' as an over fence show horse. Since he was shown in the Maclay format, he was at least a decent Equitation over Fence horse at 3'6" but not brilliant or easy to keep going. I think he has always lacked impulsion and forward energy. He was down-graded to a lesson horse and finally gotten rid of. 

He would probably make a really nice trail horse and recreational riding horse if someone forceful enough and confident enough will get him out by himself and teach him to go anywhere his nose is pointed. Going with another horse will only teach him to go with another horse. It will not make him into a good trail horse.

And, FWIW, I have run into too many people IRL and on this forum that do not believe that any horse needs to be punished or gotten after, no matter how spoiled or dull they have become. They think love, petting and positive reinforcement will get everything done, given enough time and enough of being nice to a spoiled horse. Many of these people have 'pasture ornaments' that they cannot ride anywhere, but they will never believe or admit that their horse is just plain spoiled and needs a good 'attitude adjustment'. I don't expect them to ever follow any of my advice and am not going to argue with them -- and frankly, I don't really care. And NO! They do not believe me. I get told that regularly.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_And, FWIW, I have run into too many people IRL and on this forum that do not believe that any horse needs to be punished or gotten after, no matter how spoiled or dull they have become._"

Can't speak to who you have met in real life, but there are very few like that on this forum. I have also met enough people "IRL" who resort to punishment first. Out little mustang Cowboy, for example, was "naughty". No, but he was often scared and had no trust that people would treat him fairly. In the more relaxed atmosphere of trail riding, he's proven himself VERY trustworthy - enough so that my wife, who largely gave up riding after watching Mia & I, is now interested in riding again - on Cowboy. She trusts him.

Trooper still has the scars of being spurred bloody 7.5 years ago by people on a ranch in Colorado who were trying to MAKE him cut cattle - something his owner at the time told them NOT to do with him. The bare, lumpy flesh on his sides reminds me every times I groom him that there are people who resort to punishment first and foremost.

Bandit's former owner told me to just get after him and make him go past scary stuff. That IS possible with Bandit, but it wasn't teaching Bandit to be calm or confident - just that his rider could be scarier that what was ahead. His previous owner, BTW, really liked and cared for Bandit. He was very proud of him and Bandit came here liking people - but he also arrived with some bad habits. At least, bad for what I want to do. But his former owner & I both like him...we just have different approaches to getting a horse to go forward. The jury is still out on if my approach will work well, but I like the progress I've seen.

Of course, that is just 3 horses, but that makes me 3 for 3 in owning horses who have been dominated rather than understood. 2 of the 3 are now good trail horses and the third is making progress, so I doubt I'm totally wrong.

As for punishment, the US Cavalry manual says (underlining mine):5 - WILINGNESS - All horses have this faculty in varying amounts. Some submit to the rider's control with little trouble and hesitation, while others, on the contrary, offer great resistance. Under certain circumstances, all horses display stubbornness. The rider must always expect to encounter this stubbornness, which he must seek to avoid by the employment of proper aids; by demanding of the horse only what he is able to do, taking into account his degree of training and his physical attributes. Moreover, the rider must judiciously employ rewards and punishments to assure his supremacy over the will of the horse.

6. REWARDS. The horse is susceptible to rewards and understands their meaning. They stimulate his desire to please, encourage and reassure him when frightened by an unknown demand, and restore his confidence and submission....Rewards should not, however, be given the horse promiscuously. Riders are often seen caressing horses which are completely insubordinate. This is a bad error. If the horse, upset through fear or ignorance, becomes excited and does not allow himself to be controlled by the aids to the degree demanded, he should be calmed by use of the voice and by stroking. But if he knows what is wanted of him and for no reason whatsoever resists, it is an error to caress him. Such action will encourage him to resist and cause him to doubt the rider's firmness, and will necessitate sharper and more repeated correction, and lesson the effects of rewards. Stroking the horse calms him and is a means of persuasion. It should only be employed with an excitable horse, or after the horse has yielded to some demand; never during a disobedience...

7 PUNISHMENT. If the horse merits a reward after a good performance, he also deserves punishment when he disobeys, but such action should be taken properly and at the correct time. Corrections should follow the fault immediately, in order that the horse may understand the reason for the pain he suffers. In this way only is the correction effective, for otherwise it would be misunderstood by the horse, and would be considered as an unjust and uncalled for attack.

Punishment should not only be given at the proper time but also with justice. Should the horse disobey through ignorance, fear or defects in his conformation, he should not receive punishment...The rider must at all costs be the master, and should not hesitate, upon proper occasion, to combat his horse...

...Punishment should be administered without anger...The rider should remain calm in order to give only the needed amount of correction. In this way he obtains greater obedience, whereas in exceeding this limit he provokes the horse's resentment and leaves him with the memory of an injustice.

As soon as the correction has produced the result sought and the horse has yielded, the rider should caress his horse in order that the latter may see that he has everything to lose by disobeying, and everything to gain by submitting...

...The two best means of correction are the spur and whip, employed together or separately. Under their action the horse is obliged to move forward. While they are being employed the horse must be given a certain amount of liberty, and then picked up at the proper time. "Rein back while spurring forward" is an ironically true expression of the rider who reins back his horse while correcting him. Such action provokes resistance by the horse in place, which is the worst he can offer, and results in stubbornness...

...*The fact must be borne in mind that punishments are very rarely necessary. Most of the faults committed by the horse are due to his ignorance and lack of training, or to the insufficiency of the means employed by the rider. In either case, severity becomes an injustice and causes such harmful results that it is better not to punish at all than to punish wrongly*.​That was largely written by a guy who spent a year at Samur and a year at the Italian cavalry school, and then taught riding at Ft Riley. He competed in three Olympics, two as the team captain. I think he strikes a good balance. But for what I do, and given my own imperfect reading of a horse, I tend to resort to punishment only when I've run out of other options.

It is certainly possible to spoil a horse. It is also possible to shut a horse down. When we got Trooper back from the lady who taught him not to run away from cowboy hats, she recommended he spend some time on the "You Can Do No Wrong" program because slightly overdoing any punishment could send him into blind terror. 7 years later, Trooper is on the "He Very Rarely Does Wrong" program...

And at least with my 3 horses (and Mia before them), there has been little reason to punish. It needs to be an option. Mia would have no respect for someone who acted afraid or timid around her. But it is not wrong to look for other options in training.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I gotta agree. :iagree: This horse is really a mess.
There is just something that you have to have to train a horse, and that is an assertive personality. I sometimes get beaten up because I may appear to be too harsh, but I cannot abide it when my horses misbehave! I also just groove on the little training things that you do, like when my QH, tied up yesterday, so that I could clean his stall, and he got his front leg through the lead--tied high, so I don't really know How he did it--and the lead's snap was inches from above his knee. I was able to free him and he DIDN'T panic because of my time training him and the trust AND the leadership.
I firmly believe that God made horses and dogs to defer to people and when they are not trained, I believe that they get crazy. I think it is something in their nature and they suffer when they don't have a purpose.
Something bothered me about the original post and this horse NOT responding to spurs, and the Suggestion that harsher spurs would fix him. I am NOT CHERIE and can't step into HER shoes as a trainer, but I have NEVER had a horse who dulled to a spur. The only time I experienced this was with my babysitter QH/TQH herd leader, "Tyke" (1970-1998, RIP) when I rode him several months into his first CW season, and he rejected me as a solider, PURELY because of my gender. He did everything for me as he did at home, but flat out reFUSED to back, even when I dismounted and kicked him in the shins! The horse was so safe, otherwise, I figured that THIS fight wasn't worth winning, and he didn't start misbehaving in any other ways. He just had figured out that I was playing at a man's sport. "Corporal" (Arabian, 1982-2009, RIP) didn't care WHAT I wanted to do as long as he could race around and do his thing at events, so I didn't NEED to win the fight with Tyke.
She is right, pets and kisses should be used sparingly. Most dogs and horses prefer that you don't pet them on their face and they DO resent it. Horses will walk all over the meek and mild.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Okay, somehow I missed his show record, thus my assumption that he was not very 'broke'
All reputable training programs here, whether they be western pleasure or reining, include having that horse ridden out, and not just arena rode
My son spent a summer, when going to university, starting colts for a very well known and successful Canadian reining/working cowhorse trainer. Soon as those colts had a few weeks on them, my son's job included riding those colts out also, once or twice a week
I do know that their is a tendency in the warmblood industry to keep those horses confined, not turned out, even as they are growing up, as they are 'too valuable'
Many of those horses are then just arena ridden, hardly able to be ridden out on show grounds, from one arena tot he other. Yes, there are exceptions, but this is also a strong trend seen
Lunging, JMO, is also often way over used, with some equipment that can even promote a false was of going, such as a chambon. In fact, incorrect use of a chambon, can create many of the problems that this horse has, and amore likely cause of them, taking breed and discipline into account, then any western pl influence!
I agree that such a horse needs both strong correction, and, to be ridden out. Taking this horse on a week long trail ride in the mountains, ridden by a very confident and knowledgeable rider, putting in some long days, would do wonders!
Totally agree that a horse does not dull to spurs, if ridden correctly with them. Just the opposite-that horse becomes very responsive to very light leg aids alone
A horse lunges correctly, also does not zoom around at 'mac speed'


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Also was thinking more on what you are saying, Cheri, concerning that holding, while and over and under, and maybe it is just the wording that caused me to see it incorrectly.
Therefore, correct me if I am wrong,deciphering as to what you are saying
I get the picture of you checking the horse with the reins,, then over and undering him, but then also releasing to let him get that forward, versus continuing to hold, while you give forward re- enforced commands, thus getting a clearer and more controlled response by the horse
.
If that is the case, then makes more sense to me.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Cherie said:


> I don't expect them to ever follow any of my advice and am not going to argue with them -- and frankly, I don't really care. And NO! They do not believe me. I get told that regularly.


I can only assume that is directed at me Cherie. If so, I must also assume you mustn't ever actually read any of my posts before you argue!! Sheesh! If you had, one thing you would have noticed is that I wasn't actually disagreeing with you on much at all(except on the bit about sounding condescending:icon_rolleyes, was only wanting you to explain yourself. But if you can't do that, oh well. No wonder no one understands you.

To OP, pardon this tangent, I thought it was going to yield some more helpful discussion for you...


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## Knave (Dec 16, 2015)

So, why not wear spurs? I don't know anything about dressage, are they not allowed? You said the horse moved out when you put their spurs on, so I don't understand why you aren't using that to your advantage. I'm just thinking that if you ride the horse in sharps, using your leg first and the sharps second he might start to respond to your leg.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

loosie said:


> I can only assume that is directed at me Cherie. If so, I must also assume you mustn't ever actually read any of my posts before you argue!! Sheesh! If you had, one thing you would have noticed is that I wasn't actually disagreeing with you on much at all(except on the bit about sounding condescending:icon_rolleyes, was only wanting you to explain yourself. But if you can't do that, oh well. No wonder no one understands you.
> 
> To OP, pardon this tangent, I thought it was going to yield some more helpful discussion for you...


Not directed at you at all. Most of the time we agree pretty much on things. There are people on the forum that think I'm an ogre, and way too mean. I'm actually very. very quiet and non-confrontational with almost all horses. Horses I have trained from the beginning seldom ever get more than a tiny "Ah!" for a correction. Badly spoiled horses, on the other hand, require a good reason to stop a behavior. A lot of people do not understand the difference. I don't know whether you do or not. Most people that have made nice, ridable horses out of badly spoiled horses understand the difference. I seldom post severe corrections because of the people that do not understand how or even that they DO work.

I remember a couple of years ago that a student was training a really rank horse. I told her that I though she needed to lay the horse down. I was attacked pretty severely. I told her how to do it by PM. She did and later posted photos of the horse riding nicely. He had been one rank son-of-a-gun.

I'm sorry I offended you and that certainly was not my intention. We just are not on the same wave length on this one. I should probably just go to PM on this one and on the spoiled pony. Badly spoiled horses are just wired differently after they have gotten by with too much. They sometimes need to be humbled and given a complete attitude adjustment.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

My suggestion would be to take him out on trails. Maybe find some logs to jump him over. Something new and exciting to improve his attitude towards work.

Instead of just riding in the arena, is there a field you can work him in? Once you do get him to canter, I would push him into a gallop. Even if you need to use the whip or spurs to get there.

I was always taught that for a lazy horse, you ask twice, then spank hard with the whip. But I mostly ride hotter horses so I really haven't dealt with that too much. 

It sounds like he is very bored and has tuned out to the rider. If you are comfortable jumping him, I would do so. See if he is happier going over fences. 

If the whip does not work I would get a friend to hold a lunge whip and reinforce your leg signals from the ground. You may want to work on lunging before that though. For real greenies who ignore the leg, I always use a person on the ground to reinforce my aids. Usually with a young horse, a few sessions is all it takes for them to get the idea. Of course, they already know how to lunge and don't have bad habits! 

I disagree that he won't make it as a dressage horse. He isn't the ideal candidate, but most horses aren't. You work with what you have in front of you. He has the breeding, he probably has the movement if he is motivated enough. The key is making this "fun" enough to wake him up.

If he were mine, I would take him on a trail ride, look for a field or clearing, do some circles, figure 8s, transitions etc for about ten minutes, then ride home. 

Getting him out of the arena would be wonderful for his mental health, especially if he has been living in a stall his entire life. He probably is bored silly and you wonder why he doesn't want to move out! 

One of the lesson horses I rode as a child was as dead sided as you describe here. Only 3 things woke him up: going to a horse show, leaving the yard, or riding in the jump ring with the big jumps. The arena was so boring, you couldn't get much out of him.

Another thing, have you tried riding without a bit? I know some trainers punish the horse for moving out. He may be scared to go faster, afraid of getting jerked in the mouth.


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## Cordillera Cowboy (Jun 6, 2014)

Smilie said:


> Also was thinking more on what you are saying, Cheri, concerning that holding, while and over and under, and maybe it is just the wording that caused me to see it incorrectly.
> Therefore, correct me if I am wrong,deciphering as to what you are saying
> I get the picture of you checking the horse with the reins,, then over and undering him, but then also releasing to let him get that forward, versus continuing to hold, while you give forward re- enforced commands, thus getting a clearer and more controlled response by the horse
> .
> If that is the case, then makes more sense to me.


Cheri's description of the technique made perfect sense to me. Ignoring the whys and wherefores for the moment, holding the horse back during the brief spanking prevents the horse from thinking that you want it to lurch forward with the first leg cue.


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## Woodhaven (Jan 21, 2014)

Whenever I have used that procedure in the past (not often and only in certain circumstances) I ride with English reins so often would have a crop tucked in my boot in case I needed one, I would ask the horse to move forward, I might ask again to be sure the horse understood what I wanted and if no response I would sit down and sort of do a half halt and the crop would magically appear, 3 good swats (sometimes getting myself if I wasn't careful). This whole procedure would take only a second or maybe 2 at the most. 
It wasn't as though I was making the horse stand still while I punished it for a long time it was done very quickly and over with and then I make my request again, usually very successful this time.
I would never do this with a green or untrained horse as it would serve no purpose, or with a scared, frightened or high strung horse as they tend to be forward anyway and it would be the wrong way to handle a horse like that.


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Thanks for the further info then Cherie, that it wasn't directed at me. As it seems I was the only one questioning, and the way you put it, found it hard to come up with another way to take it. But I do appreciate it's easy to misconstrue stuff only having written words... I just like to understand the WHY's of different opinions before dismissing or accepting them & to be told 'you wouldn't understand so I'm not going to bother' is a sure fire way of getting my back up.

FWIW, I think for the most part - aside from our disagreement of positive reinforcement being valuable to 'compliment' other training - sounds to me like we work to quite similar principles.


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

I was in Wally World the other day (I hate Wally World, but they carry my aloe vera juice) and there was a mother and her child. The child was running up and down the aisles, bumping into people, basically making civilized lives miserable. He would run past his mother who would try to smack him, but he had learned at some point to duck this way or that to avoid the smack. As I watched this creature all I could think was he needs to be held in a vice grip and 'over undered' then have the grip loosened and a voice saying, 'stay by mom's side.'

The child had learned to totally ignore his moms attempts at smacking by ducking, weaving, and zig zagging (running backs in the NFL could take lessons from this child). What he needs is to be held then spanked smartly, and released. He would only need to be told to not run after that.

That is my take on Cherie's advice. The holding back is the only way to get the horses attention so it can listen to a polite request. And the child at Wally World.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

When our only son (who turned 33 today) was a rebellious teen, he had a friend tell him to just tell me they were going to someone's house that I liked and then they could sneak off and do something else (probably try to get someone to buy them beer). I heard him tell this fried "You don't understand. I can't get by with that. My Mom is a horse trainer and she would find out and make me pay too much. It ain't worth it."

He thought he was an abused child back then. He had to help with chores, had to drive the tractor when needed and had to pay for his own truck and insurance. All his friends had parents that bought them nice trucks and gave them gas and insurance. He knew he was abused. He left in a huff and joined the Navy (I was doing a happy dance and saying "Thank you Jesus!") telling us he might visit, but he was not ever going to feed another horse or drive another tractor.

He is now 33 and built a house in our North pasture and lives here with his wife and 3 kids. We could not run him off with a big stick. He is so much help that I do not know if we could keep doing this without his help. When he was little, he knew better than to throw tantrums and try to run wild.


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## paintedpastures (Jun 21, 2011)

Horse sounds like he was nagged upon to point of shut down & intimidation to keep it slow. Have seen similar things happen to horses poorly trained for WP. Horse is constantly asked to give their face ,spurred up into bridle to try get some form of collection/slow down. Seen horses lose what it means to go forward because they are intimidated about getting spurs & jerked upon.They cant travel straight,lack forward impulsion. At some point some mentally come unglued to point start evading by rearing,bucking etc..  

This horse doesn't sound like it is at point of becoming mentally ruined but is numb to things for sure. I could see the over/under wake up call working to get some forward movement from him. It is good you are riding him outside & riding out of arena setting would do wonders for this horse!:wink: Don't be asking him for anything really but to go happily forward W/T/C enjoying the ride. It is only after that start working him in arena for things more toward discipline you are hoping to ride him:wink:. 

I remember a horse that had become so ring sour & would go down rail so canted he was practically going sideways...sad to watch. Remember him even being excused from the class for looking lame{wasn't truely lame but it was his freakish way of moving instilled on him} Horse was sold & new owner just took him out & rode him like a normal horse,took him on trails etc. Horse learned how to move forward & straight again. He did go back to show ring & couldn't believe how much better horse looked


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## natisha (Jan 11, 2011)

Now that Cherie has done all the hard work (thanks Cherie) I'll try to explain the 'whys' in regards to the holding back part which does sound contradictory at first glance.

The horse is walking, now you want to trot. Now- not after you've peddled it around. The horse says "no, I want to go slow, you can't make me go faster" after you've given soft easy cues. So you say, "fine", you can ignore the soft cue & we can stay right here but you won't like it much. So you block forward by holding him back, give a few quick smacks, then immediately release the block & ask with soft cues again. 
The swats don't punish the asked for forward, they punish the horse ignoring the soft cues ( seat, legs). Somehow the horse understands this but that's why you only do this to the slugs who should know better, not greenies.

It's the same concept as asking for a nice clean canter departure. We set the horse up, ask & if all the horse does is a fast trot we shut them down & ask again without pausing. ( I do anyway, some may do differently). At the surface it would seem that shutting them down unfairly punished the horse, after all it did speed up but as it didn't canter it was the wrong response.

Timing is key. So is a good solid seat because you can never be sure of what you may get.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

EXACTLY! Every cue is to be exact, mean what we ask for and clear. I really believe that the correct cues to back Also reinforce the Whoa and set a young horse up for the half halt, which is the way that we downward transition and teach the horse to use his HQ's.
To back Correctly you start from the full halt, push the horse firmly forward with your CALVES, STOP the forward motion with the bit and, AT the SAME TIME continue to cue and put your upper body weight backwards. It doesn't make sense right away to a horse, unless you have trained him with verbal cues FIRST, and then translate to the physical cues. The beauty is that once your horse learns this, he doesn't forget it and just like the Whoa, puts the RIDER in control of the horse. When you don't believe that you are in control and can stop the horse, or your CAR, for that matter, you tense up and become frightened and thus, are NO LEADER for your horse.
You also keep your body fairly still and your aids are close to you. Just like reaching when you are on a ladder will make your lose your balance and fall, we are kept balanced on a horse by not reaching, or pulling the reins to our chest, or even further back, as I have seen done.
ONLY a finished horse, ridden by a competent rider will appear to be pushed into the bit. I have enjoyed the horse tv channels and I have seen WB's perform in the arena, and they hold their heads on a slack rein and perform with invisible cues.
When a horse learns a skill they LOVE to show off.
When we did the children's Friday program at a small, local CW event a few years ago, my mare would do anything I wanted with tiny cues, because there was an audience and SHE liked showing off.
*I truly wish that THIS was the goal for showing horses.* 
I am saddened that we are commenting one a horse truly messed up by people who are using abusive shortcuts. They have destroyed the confidence in this horse.
I think that the only sure cure would be to pasture and train him next to a horse like my old herd leader, "Tyke". He beat up everybody, but my whole herd LOVED him and followed him. (Except he didn't beat up the pony and the old mare that I had. He just let them eat alongside him.) 
Tyke gave my other horses confidence and was the real reason that I was able to train 14 other horses quickly to gunfire. They would look at him, fearless, and become fearless themselves.
This horse NEEDS a Tyke in his life.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_To back Correctly you start from the full halt, push the horse firmly forward with your CALVES, STOP the forward motion with the bit and, AT the SAME TIME continue to cue and put your upper body weight backwards_."

Hmm...I jiggle the reins a little and say, "Back" and my horses back. And I never lean back while backing.

The correct cue is any cue the horse understands. When I was trying to get Lilly to neck rein, I unintentionally got in the habit of placing one hand on her withers. Before long, I had a horse who "wither reined" - put your hand on her withers, push lightly to the right, and she would go right. 

Lots of horses pick up bad habits. Bandit's previous owner probably weighs 220 in his socks, so 250+ with tack on an 800 lb horse he raced. Is it any wonder Bandit's default trot includes bracing his back like an I-beam? Six months later, he can trot nicely...but if nervous, reverts to old habits.

Because of a back injury, I always ride a little off balance with a stiff right lower back. My horses are used to it and ignore it, but someone who WANTED their horse to respond to minor changes in balance would think my horses suck. 

Very few of us have the option of raising our own horses and training them from the start. The OP's horse has picked up a bad habit during its previous life. It can unlearn that habit. Folks have suggested a variety of ways to do so, and probably most will work sooner or later. The correction for bad riding by someone in the past is good riding in the present. Horses adjust, if their new rider is persistent, consistent and clear.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I can see why you would use your reins to cue if you have a bad back. *Isn't is great that our good horses are so accommodating? =D*
My description is a standard set of cues for "back up." I try, whenever possible to train my horses with standard cues.
Still, the horse in this thread is such a mess and SUCH a big job to fix. I don't envy the OP.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

I admit to not having read Cheri's post without skimming, and going back to it, see she did give that release after the correction, then the chance for the horse to respond lightly, before again holding and getting after the horse- so I am perfectly fine with that
On the other hand, the title to this post shows a lack of complete understanding, far as spurs.
The title should read 'horse ridden all his life INCORRECTLY with spurs
A horse ridden correctly with spurs, is at the opposite end of this spectrum, as he learns you ride with spurs, but will not use them , UNLESS he fails to respond to very light leg aids alone.
By keeping this understood agreement between you and the horse, you seldom need to touch such a horse with a spur

The horse needs some knowledgeable retraining, and even the over and under, based on why the horse won't move forward
If the horse is just balking, showing lack of work ethics, try, then yes, use Cheri's method
On the other hand, if this horse has been intimidated by a bit, so he sucks back, afraid for his mouth, I would just ride him forward, out in the open, leaving his mouth alone as much as possible
He would also be taught to lunge with respect, if I even used lunging, and not zooming around, doing his own thing
We can't see either how this horse is going, or how he is being ridden
One thing to work on, would certainly be, to get sensitivity back into him, regarding leg aids, and that tuned out dullness 'grin and bare it to spurs

Far as backing correctly, I want my horse to back off my legs, not my hands, as eventually that horse will learn to back on a loose rein You should only need to ask for a horse's face add slight body language, and that does not include any obvious leaning back, and then use your legs to ask the horse to back. The minute I take that light leg contact off, lower my rein hand slightly, my horses stop backing, I can also move either their shoulders or hips while backing (shoulders with indirect rein, hips with leg) In a reining back up, bumping with legs is used to add speed


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

natisha said:


> Now that Cherie has done all the hard work (thanks Cherie) I'll try to explain the 'whys' in regards to the holding back part which does sound contradictory at first glance.
> 
> The horse is walking, now you want to trot. Now- not after you've peddled it around. The horse says "no, I want to go slow, you can't make me go faster" after you've given soft easy cues. So you say, "fine", you can ignore the soft cue & we can stay right here but you won't like it much. So you block forward by holding him back, give a few quick smacks, then immediately release the block & ask with soft cues again.
> The swats don't punish the asked for forward, they punish the horse ignoring the soft cues ( seat, legs). Somehow the horse understands this but that's why you only do this to the slugs who should know better, not greenies.
> ...


Well, yes, when asking for a good lope or canter depart, on a horse that has the body basic on him, we do not let him either change topline, elevate head, instead of shoulders, nor fall into it out out forward motion, like trotting into it
Instead, that horse is asked to drive up into it, from behind, while continuing to give his face and poll
That scenario is not really the same, in a horse that just refuses forward, as you have a horse that wants to respond by too much forward to pick up that canter or lope, versus by using himself correctly, making the effort to drive up into it correctly from behind

I use that exercise a lot, (following details), to both get great stop to lope departures, and also to teach a horse to rate speed by instilling 'wait'

It is also true that if your lope is not correct, right from that transition,, you just spend the next strides trying to fix it
Thus, once a horse is ready for this, I will lope one or two circles, ask for a correct hind end stop, backing the horse a step, if not sure he is on his back end. I then do a turn on the haunches tot he outside of that circle, and then ask the horse to lope off on opposite lead, no trotting steps, and continuing to give in face and poll

There is no punishment, it what you are doing, far as that canter departure, but a correction to not responding to the cue correctly. You did not, I assume, ask the horse to trot faster, but used outside leg to ask for the canter, which the horse did not do, as it is much easier for him to trot faster into it, that to use himself corretcly. Thus huting him down, asking him to do the correct thing, is perfectly logical, a correction to ignored cue


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## beau159 (Oct 4, 2010)

Cherie said:


> 1) Ask him to move forward with a very light squeeze.
> 
> 2) Ask him again with a slightly harder squeeze (not a hard kick).
> 
> ...


I was going to suggest something similar to Cherie, but the way I do it is a little different. There's always more than one way to get from A to B. My trainer originally showed me this and it's really quite effective. I do agree with Cherie that this is for a horse that knows better but chooses not to. It is not for a green horse that does not understand what you want.

Personally, I don't understand "hold back" so I don't do that. I also don't give the horse a second chance; they need to get it right the first time. This is what I do:

At a standstill, squeeze your legs to ask the horse to walk forward. If you do NOT _immediately _get a brisk and quick transition into the walk, you take your whip (or reins) and SMACK your horse on the rump. Hard. Mean it!! Expect your horse to lunge forward. That's okay. (If they don't, well then you weren't aggressive enough with your cues.) Let them go a couple strides, then stop them and try again. 

Squeeze with your legs to ask for the walk. If again, you do not immediately get a brisk transition into the walk, SMACK them again. 

Repeat as you need, but it usually does not take the horse long to figure it out. Just remember to NEVER end your transition with a smack. You should only move on when the horse has given you a brisk nice transition with a very subtle squeeze from your legs. 

You can use this same method when working from the walk to trot, and trot to lope. But of course you want to start with the basics and gradually work your way up. Again, don't ever move on unless they have given you a nice transition with a subtle cue.

You can also use this same method when the horse fails to continue the pace you have asked them to do. Let's say you asked for a good working trot and they start to fade. Rather than the rider having to "nag" the horse to keep up the pace, it should be the horse's responsibility to keep the pace until you ask them to do otherwise. 

You do have to be 100% consistent with this. If you let the horse revert to their lazy behavior even once, then they fall back into it. So the rider has to be very diligent.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

i agree there is more than one way to 'skin a cat, or train a horse, for that matter
Also, you adapt to what the horse knows and situation.
For instance, on a horse that has 'froze up', you do not want to just spur or spank them forwards, as that horse can become unglued and buck hard. I know that is not what we are talking about here
This is a horse that either was allowed to develop poor work ethic, through burn out, always ridden in an arena, thus could use that check, over under, release, rinse and repeat, OR it can be a horse that has been intimidated to go forward, by incorrect training, heavy hands on the bit
In that case, I am still un decided, far as using that check and over under. I believe the best course on a horse like this, is to ride him out, getting that forward, but leaving his mouth alone much as possible


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Cherie said:


> Well, the difference between a horse that is barely going forward with much nagging and a horse that has had a good 'wake-up call' is the difference between night and day. The first one has his ears back and is miserable, trying to do as little as possible, dragging its toes in the dirt and riding heavily on the forehand. The horse with the wake-up will move willingly, keep its ears up, collect and ride into the bridle and move much more pleasantly. There is as much difference in the horse's happiness as there is in the rider's happiness.
> 
> I do not know how people get it into their heads that when you spank a horse for behaving badly, he becomes some bullied, miserable horse that is working out of fear. It is quite the opposite. Actually, it is the spoiled horse and the misbehaving horse that is miserable. These are the horses with their ears back, taking no interest in anything and hating everything the rider asks and hating every move they 'have' to make. They are barely compliant enough to go at all.
> 
> ...


I suppose it takes experience, and some never get it :wink: bless you Cherie for your unending patience with everyone! Sorry guys for not reading the whole thread but I thought that I would put my 2 cents here:

Cherie's "hold back and smack" method changed my entire way of going with my mare. She was a dead-sided, buck when you ask trot, etc. type horse. just a complete spoiled brat that a lot of people thought I should give up on and buy myself a nice finished horse. After YEARS of struggle on the forward movement with this horse and eventually reverting to spurs, though I didn't want to it was trainer's recommendation, I tried out Cherie's method and VOILA! an Almost instant change. My mare was pretty bad so it took more than one or two sessions and she usually needed a reminder during warmup each session. However, today I hardly ever (meaning maybe once if she's had a month or two off) have to use it. She is nice and forward and light, making a decent lower level dressage horse, and I am finally enjoying riding my horse. I come out of every session happy with our progress, because the biggest issue I had with her has been worked out and Cherie's method was the tool I needed.

As far as holding back, the reason you do it is because you don't want the horse exploding into a fast trot or canter when you ask for transition. If you do this without holding back, the horse *can* develop a bad explosive transition. Holding back also really helps enforce the correction. It makes it much more of a wake up call than just smacking the horse like a barrel racer.

As for "ask, tell, demand"... it doesn't work. 'Ask' becomes irrelevant and the horse responds to 'Tell' because he knows next comes 'Demand'. So I use "Ask, Demand". I ask nice, then I ramp it up. Demand is different for different horses. Demand for my mother's horse, who is very sensitive and light, is a bump of the heel. Demand for my horse is a tap of the heel and a flick of the dressage whip. Demand for her used to be Cherie's method, but she has since progressed in her training, thank God!


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

Beau, you pretty much describe my approach. Just _depending_ on the horse/situation, I may give a couple of chances.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"_As for "ask, tell, demand"... it doesn't work. 'Ask' becomes irrelevant and the horse responds to 'Tell' because he knows next comes 'Demand'._"

Ummm...all I can say is that in my limited experience, it DOES work with my 3 horses. Ask works 90% of the time, maybe more. "Tell" works most of the rest of the time, and "demand" happens maybe twice a year. Could be I'm lucky and own horses who are just that way. Or maybe Tom Robert's advice of:

"*That profits you not*"

combined with

"*Quiet Persistence*"​ 
is a valid approach as well. Maybe if I showed, competed or did ranch work on a horse, it would not. But Tom Roberts was a riding instructor and horse trainer for the British Cavalry writing after 60 years with horses, giving advice to non-professionals and beginners - and maybe the advice works well for those of us who were not born on a horse.

When my brush goes over the lumpy flesh on Trooper's side where a cowboy spurred his "demand", or I clean out Bandit's front left hoof and see how much larger it is now compared to 6 months ago, and how the wear pattern on it now is front to back instead of 1:30 to 7:30 and I think of how that must have felt to use his leg at an angle, I am reminded that there ARE people who resort to "DEMAND" when they needed to "UNDERSTAND".

Of course, when I see a horse pushing for treats, or bucking because his rider asks for a trot, and hear the rider making excuses, I'm reminded that there are also people who baby their horses. I met a guy a month ago out in the desert, riding a beautiful 7 year old Arabian gelding. He said he wasn't the owner, but the owner was afraid to ride the horse anywhere except a round pen, so he rode the horse for her - alone, in the desert. Said the horse is fine, but has his owner's number. But he has the horse's number, so he gets to trail ride free on a really nice gelding.

It works both ways. You cannot be afraid to get after a horse, per the French proverb about God being on the back and the Devil at the belly. But the French have another proverb about riding: "*il se defend*" - he defends himself. And James Fillis, writing in 1890, said, "_In place of first putting the blame on the horse, which is only natural,the rider ought perhaps begin by trying to find out if he himself is not the culprit._"

A good rider has no trouble knowing when to push and when to back off. Less experienced riders, like myself, need to remember there is error on either side, and one must try to find the path between.

Per the OP:

"My friend snapped a pic of me and the saddle fit on me is far worse than I initially thought it was. It's now more obvious to me why he was more receptive bareback."

While there may be more to it and getting it corrected, the OP's willingness to look at things from the horse's perspective is exactly what James Fillis wanted. Our little mustang Cowboy is also a tough saddle fit, and as a lesson horse with people bringing their own saddles to put on him, he often bucked when asked to go forward. But if the saddle fits and isn't on his shoulder, he'll trot and canter without question. That is another case where inexperienced riders (and frankly, an instructor who should have known better) blamed a blameless horse...:icon_rolleyes:


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horseluvr, you are assuming that this horse is balking, refusing forward out of being spoiled, and Then I certainly see Cheri's method of being the right approach. I also use it if I ask for a lope transition, and the horse instead just trots faster, not making the effort for a great transition. I will stop him, ask for frame, and then drive him up into the lope from behind, while holding as much as needed, for the horse to keep giving me his face and poll, lightening aids as he remains soft and correct.
I , for one, though, am still wondering as to whether this horse has been intimidated by a bit, held back, esp while spurs were applied, so he is afraid to move out. In that case, you want to ride that horse out somewhere, leaving his face alone as much as possible, having him learn to trust your hands.
Again, we are not seeing how this horse is being ridden, and as to what he is actually doing
I find it strange, that if he was in a dressage program, he was ridden with pointed spurs, as are they not illegal there?Don't know about hunter/jumper rules

I also don't see a 'horse ridden all his life with spurs', CORRECTLY, being dead sided. Just the opposite


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

bsms said:


> "_As for "ask, tell, demand"... it doesn't work. 'Ask' becomes irrelevant and the horse responds to 'Tell' because he knows next comes 'Demand'._"
> 
> Ummm...all I can say is that in my limited experience, it DOES work with my 3 horses. Ask works 90% of the time, maybe more. "Tell" works most of the rest of the time, and "demand" happens maybe twice a year. Could be I'm lucky and own horses who are just that way. Or maybe Tom Robert's advice of:
> 
> ...


Well, in this case your "tell" is actually your "demand" :wink: You still have a two step process 90% of the time. I say "ask, demand" because the two step process works much better than a 3 step. As I said before, demand is different for different horses. My mother's horse is so light and sensitive all it takes is a GENTLE bump of the heel (without spurs!) that to most horses is a signal to walk! My horse isn't quite as light but she is getting there. Sometimes, I will have a 3 step process, if I've asked a couple times, "told" a couple times (bump of the heel, light flick of the whip), and if they still won't listen then we may have a small CTJ moment and I'll really get after them. After that no issues. But most of the time, as I said, two step process. Keeps them light and responsive and I almost never have to argue with them anymore. Way different from my days of nagging a horse!

I was not born on a horse and did not come from a horsey family. Not sure what that has to do with anything :neutral: Through experience and observation of a herd, I've learned the way horses speak with each other. I've learned to speak their language and implement it into my training so they can better understand me and I them. I guess in some people's books that would make me NH but that's a scary label these days!

I hate the way some "cowboys" ride. We hired a trainer my old BO used a couple years ago to work my mother's ranch horse on cattle, since we had no idea how and thought it would do her some good (she LOVES to chase down a cow!). I asked him to see if he could get her to do a rollback (had previously asked him to take off his spurs but he made up some excuse and didn't). He gave the signal and when she started tossing her head, he started jabbing his spur into her. Wrong thing to do on this horse, who is as sensitive as an arab on a high grain ration! (this horse is not fed any grain, and not even alfalfa. She gets blended pellets a few times a week and is always on grass hay and is still a bit of a hot horse). Needless to say I was not impressed and never hired him again. I have been working with this mare on her head tossing issues when you ask for a right turn. She is improving drastically because I'm taking it slow and quiet.

I also have picked up on riding or handling issues that are the cause of a back out or ill fitting saddle. Mom's horse started bucking when a rider got on her. We knew it wasn't like her and figured it must be the Aussie saddle. It was. Got rid of the saddle and got a western trail that fit her, a visit from the chiropractor, and no more issues. Most of the time though, riding problems are related to a spoiled horse. Just the way it is.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

Smilie said:


> Horseluvr, you are assuming that this horse is balking, refusing forward out of being spoiled, and Then I certainly see Cheri's method of being the right approach. I also use it if I ask for a lope transition, and the horse instead just trots faster, not making the effort for a great transition. I will stop him, ask for frame, and then drive him up into the lope from behind, while holding as much as needed, for the horse to keep giving me his face and poll, lightening aids as he remains soft and correct.
> *I , for one, though, am still wondering as to whether this horse has been intimidated by a bit, held back, esp while spurs were applied, so he is afraid to move out. In that case, you want to ride that horse out somewhere, leaving his face alone as much as possible, having him learn to trust your hands.*
> Again, we are not seeing how this horse is being ridden, and as to what he is actually doing
> I find it strange, that if he was in a dressage program, he was ridden with pointed spurs, as are they not illegal there?Don't know about hunter/jumper rules
> ...


Yup. Hard to know anything without a video. I always ride with a light contact and go from working to stretch back to working, etc. If he moved forward with a light contact, then that would be great. It could be OP has learned the 'modern' dressage where they make it all about where the head is and have heavy hands trying to force that "frame" and try for collection way before the horse has built the proper muscle for it. But can't say she is doing this because I haven't seen her ride. Its a pretty common thing though, I apprenticed under a trainer who practiced this, I hated it, horse hated it. This trainer at one point said you should ride with 40 pounds of pressure on the reins! :shock: I had to research to find out what dressage should be.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

"You still have a two step process 90% of the time."

No, I do not. As I said, I ASK 90% of the time. That is a kiss. Tell is adding a squeeze, and it covers most of the remaining 10%. Demand = hitting my leg with a leather strap, which works fine with my horses. That is a few times a year. But they are all pretty forward by nature. Any attitude problems are more likely to be with slowing, not with going faster. I also have the option, as an owner, of dealing with them in their corrals. A habit of obedience can start there, and many of the spoiled horses I've seen are spoiled on the ground first. A horse can often get its rider's number before the butt hits the saddle. Put that way, maybe WHEN the butt "hits" the saddle...:wink:

I agree with the rest of your comment. Trooper came from a friend's ranch, and was ridden well there - although often by sheepherders with no previous experience. It was when he was loaned to another ranch that a cowboy spurred him bloody to demand he cut cattle. A good ranch will create good horses. Maybe great horses. But a bad cowboy is BAD - and some of them exist as well. When someone spurs a horse bloody after the horse has been successfully ridden thousands of miles in rough terrain by beginners, it isn't the horse who is the problem! But I'd rather have a horse from a good ranch than from anywhere else.


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

bsms said:


> "You still have a two step process 90% of the time."
> 
> No, I do not. As I said, I ASK 90% of the time. That is a kiss. Tell is adding a squeeze, and it covers most of the remaining 10%. Demand = hitting my leg with a leather strap, which works fine with my horses. That is a few times a year. But they are all pretty forward by nature. Any attitude problems are more likely to be with slowing, not with going faster. I also have the option, as an owner, of dealing with them in their corrals. A habit of obedience can start there, and many of the spoiled horses I've seen are spoiled on the ground first. A horse can often get its rider's number before the butt hits the saddle. Put that way, maybe WHEN the butt "hits" the saddle...:wink:


Oh ok let me rephrase that. Most of the time the horse goes when asked. If not a gentle reminder is all that is needed (two step process, and because of this the horse almost always goes when you ask the first time, rather than always doing a 3 step process where the horse will ignore you the 1st step and go at the 2nd because the 3rd step means business if they dont). "Kiss" is your 1st step. Horse thinks "If I don't go now, he's going to 'tell' me I better", so he goes. This is the case with my horses too. BUT, it took me several sessions to get my horse this light (stubborn mustang). A horse that is used to not moving forward when asked and belligerently ignores you needs to be ridden with an "ask, demand" where that demand is something like Cherie's method "I said GO." A correctly trained and ridden horse won't need that. You would probably never need to do it on a naturally forward horse. But for those inclined to walk like turtles(my mare), it is applicable.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

Smilie said:


> I , for one, though, am still wondering as to whether this horse has been intimidated by a bit, held back, esp while spurs were applied, so he is afraid to move out...
> I also don't see a 'horse ridden all his life with spurs', CORRECTLY, being dead sided. Just the opposite


That's EXACTLY what I saw when I first read the original post!
The more I think about this, the more I believe that this horse needs training and companionship with a great herd leader and finished horse in his life, like my old herd leader, "Tyke", (QH/TWH, 1970-1998, RIP).
He will get more courage next to another horse than with any human in a far shorter period of time. I bought and sold a number of horses over the first 14 years that I owned horses, so my herd kept changing. I had a few horses that were not well trained and my good horses, the ones at the top of the pecking order, would beat them up for not towing the line, and they would do that in front of me, after a training session where said horse gave ME a bad time. Horses know HOW to communicate with other horses. ONE good, finished assertive horse that he can follow will teach him what it is like to be a good, trained horse and that people are ok. Remember, it is the horse's MIND that we are training. He doesn't need to learn to walk, trot, canter and balance. He learned that on his first day of life.
It may take years, or not at all for spurs for THIS horse. He is definitely an abuse case.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

horseluvr2524 said:


> A correctly trained and ridden horse won't need that. You would probably never need to do it on a naturally forward horse.


It is ALL training. There is no such thing as a "naturally forward horse." Without correct training, any horse will refuse to be led, refuse to be touched, refuse to be tacked up, refused to be ridden, and refuse to be put in a trailer. Just for the newbies, folks.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Corporal said:


> It is ALL training. T*here is no such thing as a "naturally forward horse.*" Without correct training, any horse will refuse to be led, refuse to be touched, refuse to be tacked up, refused to be ridden, and refuse to be put in a trailer. Just for the newbies, folks.


I would have to differ with that . there ARE naturally forward horses, and those naturally NOT so forward. it's in their personality, too.


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## Cherie (Dec 16, 2010)

Corporal said:


> It is ALL training. There is no such thing as a "naturally forward horse." Without correct training, any horse will refuse to be led, refuse to be touched, refuse to be tacked up, refused to be ridden, and refuse to be put in a trailer. Just for the newbies, folks.


True -- to an extent -- BUT some horse are a lot more willing and lot more trainable and 'user friendly' than others. I used to ride about 50 head a year. At least 10 of them were spoiled. Of the others, I can tell you that they do not have the same degree of willingness nor do they develop good forward impulsion at the same rate. They just are not all created equal -- and that included the 15 or 20 I got each year that were untouched and unhandled at all. Not only were they different in the way they developed good impulsion, there were bloodlines that were all very similar. 

After several years of doing this, there were some bloodlines that I really did not want to take any more. It was not their previous handling. It was their lack of willingness and the fact that I knew when they came they were going to take a lot more time and end up a lot less pleasant to ride. There was one set of horse near where I lived that I dreaded so badly that I finally just quit accepting them. A new guy moved into the area that was starting colts. I told their owner that I was already booked up for several months but that I had heard this new guy liked that line of horses. I kind of grinned when I heard he was having a real battle trying to get those colts broke. [I know. I was evil.] I'm pretty sure that is how I got them when I hung out my sign.


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

tinyliny said:


> I would have to differ with that . there ARE naturally forward horses, and those naturally NOT so forward. it's in their personality, too.



True, BUT, if a horse is trained correctly, way easier to speed them up, get more forward, then to try and slow a horse down, that does not want to be rated
I truly believe that most horses with a true lack of forward, have been made that way, though incorrect training, ether by hanging on the mouth, or just picking at a horse, versus ask, then demand, then go back to just expecting the horse to move correctly
I have never had to 'peddle' a horse on a trail ride, even the pleasure bred ones
I sure have had a heck of alot of work, on some horses, getting them to relax and move with ore cadence, more slow legged, while staying correct,k a this is way more work that just moving on
A balking horse, of course, is a separate category!


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

I've ridden both the naturally forward (sometimes these horses are also spookheads...) and the slower (sometimes more stubborn or spoiled). In some ways, I'd rather deal with slow and stubborn verses forward and spooky. Its easy enough (for me) to teach a stubborn slow horse to be forward and light. It takes a lot more patience to get a horse that just wants to go to teach them stop, relax, and slow down. I've just started doing some arena work and dressage exercises with my mother's horse. The first 20 minutes or so its been just a lot of walk, relax, walk, learning to accept the (very light) contact, and gently bringing her back to the walk with a mild correction (typically a vocal correction: QUIT!) when she starts to jig. After 20 minutes or so, she produces a lovely forward walk, gets rounded and supple, and accepts and works with the bit contact. Sometimes though, those 20 minutes seem agonizingly slow! I know she will get better over time though; I've only had two sessions with her. On the flip side riding my horse (the slower one) I spend the first ten minutes warm up getting her legged up, reminding her to pay attention to me, etc. Maybe its just that I enjoy riding my horse more, I don't know.

What I mean is, I would rather spend an hour dealing with a spoiled brat cocking me an attitude and teach him a lesson, and in the process teach him how to move lightly off my leg, than teach a spooky nervous forward horse to slow down, relax, etc. Will Faerber (ArttoRide youtube) says that relaxation is something that a horse is taught, not something they outright know. The process of teaching a horse to relax can be agonizingly slow.


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## bsms (Dec 31, 2010)

Impulsion - which came first, the horse or the rider?








​ 
FWIW, the Appy in the rear still dislikes being ridden by me. He obeys, but he doesn't enjoy me. The mare in the front, however, when ridden by my youngest daughter, bucked for the only time in her life, throwing my daughter. An adult nearby said she then looked at my daughter with a look of utter contempt and trotted away. "_You are not worthy!_"

For my part, I cannot imagine riding like this:








​ 
But TROOPER likes her. We didn't ride today, but went on a 10 mile hike. She told a couple of bicyclists we met on the trail that she preferred horses, because "_If I fall asleep on my horse, he takes me home. If I fall asleep on a bike, I crash!_" Maybe we should have named her "Narco"...


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## loosie (Jun 19, 2008)

'Stubborn' & 'belligerently ignoring' is something that is *trained* IME. The horse has been (inadvertently) *taught* that is the behaviour that is worth trying, that works for it. It's nothing to do with being a mustang or any other breed. And yes, IME, the way many people go about 'ask, ask more, tell, tell a bit stronger... before 'demanding'(what I take as 'nagging', as Cherie calls it) is indeed often behind horses becoming desensitised(ignoring, stubborn, dead sides...) to the aids. But IMO it's not about ask-tell-demand, but about timing & effectiveness of what you're doing. If you're asked to do something you don't want to do,(or stop doing something you like) but you know you'll only get 'asked' for a while, or minor annoyance if you don't... I might 'ask, tell, demand' but depending on the horse/situation, that might be all within a second.

Reminds me of a friend & her husband... whenever they're out somewhere(or at home & he wants her to do/quit doing something) he hassles her & hassles, to get ready to go. He grumbles, picks on her, walks off mumbling... and these days she barely 'notices' his behaviour. Until in her own good time, she is ready to leave/do/quit doing...


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Horses become dull for two reasons, at the opposite end of the spectrum, far as reasons.
First , as Loosie mentioned, that constant nag, nag ,nag, versus one reprimand, or one 'get in and then get out again. The nagged horse, esp a stallion, will become resentful and constant be testing, versus make the message clear and strong enough to get the point across, then allow the horse to do the right thing, responding to that light cue.
One the other end of the spectrum, is the 'jerk and spur artist', the one that goes to the spur first, never giving a horse a chance to respond to a light leg cue, nor a reason to be light, and this horse just learns to develop a high pain tolerance, tuning the rider out. The horse also braces his jaw , opens his mouth, to try and avoid the pain of that sudden jerk on the reins, learns to seek bit relief by dropping behind the vertical, or by either raising his head way up, or dropping it way down
Didn't hike today, like you, BSMS, but weather was balmy for Alberta, this time of year
Actually got hubby to try out the AirRide pad that I bought him for Christmas/ The plan was first to ride at the indoor arena, close by, that I haul to, but when we got there, the jumpers had a course st up and were jumping
We thus rode down the road from there, with Charlie leading. She got to see lots of sheep, but when I told her they were okay, she rode by them without a problem
Good thing, because the footing was not the best, to have any extra discussions on!
Charlie will make herself 'big' (not hard, as she is 16.1hh ), raise head and look, but once she realizes things are okay, will continue on a loose rein, much like that Appy. In fact, I trail ride my horses mainly thrown away like that, usually with abridge, which allows you to take up contact when needed, plus prevents me from dropping a rein, when I get too relaxed. I can also just lay that bridge across my horse's neck, and use both hands to get my camera out of my pommel bag and take pictures,without stopping


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## horseluvr2524 (Sep 17, 2013)

loosie said:


> 'Stubborn' & 'belligerently ignoring' is something that is *trained* IME. The horse has been (inadvertently) *taught* that is the behaviour that is worth trying, that works for it. It's nothing to do with being a mustang or any other breed. And yes, IME, the way many people go about 'ask, ask more, tell, tell a bit stronger... before 'demanding'(what I take as 'nagging', as Cherie calls it) is indeed often behind horses becoming desensitised(ignoring, stubborn, dead sides...) to the aids. But IMO it's not about ask-tell-demand, but about timing & effectiveness of what you're doing. If you're asked to do something you don't want to do,(or stop doing something you like) but you know you'll only get 'asked' for a while, or minor annoyance if you don't... I might 'ask, tell, demand' but depending on the horse/situation, that might be all within a second.


Yup, I'll openly admit I was the cause for her spoiled bad behavior and she definitely had my number. We were green+green but in this case it worked out, I smartened up and got some training experience under my belt, and today we are a great pair and she has made a really fantastic horse. In fact, most of the things I learned from this horse made dealing with most other horses a breeze. But I totally agree as to breed having nothing to do with being spoiled. Horses aren't born spoiled. I was simply referring before to the difference in horses that are naturally forward and those that aren't. Some breeds are more forward than others. My horse has learned to be forward. It wasn't quite her natural inclination, though she will canter and trot around sometimes with her buddies in turnout, it is not the norm for her, she prefers a slow lazy walk just hanging out. And reaching through the fence to grab her halter and lead and dumping it in the water trough so I couldn't find it. :lol: :icon_rolleyes:

On a side note, I suppose mustangs are less of a breed than they were before. I've seen some mustangs on the BLM auction with arab heads! Others look high bred and classy TBs or QH. Then there are those traditional awkward mustangs that just don't quite look right conformation wise.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

The "naturally forward horse" is the Nature vs Nurture argument. 
The one side believes that all abilities are genetic. The other side believes that all abilities are trained. Certainly aptitudes for sport ARE genetic, and if you jump and get to ride a truly scopy horse, you'll never want to jump one that isn't after that. No amount of training will get some horses to do what they physically are NOT suited to do.
ALL smooth training of any animal or human comes after a solid preparatory groundwork has been established. We are always talking about horses with problems because there are "holes" in their training. Somebody has taken a short cut and the lesson wasn't learned. We are seeing this in the Public School system right now in math pedagogy. Higher math is not understandable without a solid foundation of first memorization and then understanding, and Common Core confuses because math geeks are playing mental math games, instead of teaching simple addition and subtraction and times tables.
I made my post for newbies. When you are new to horses the making of a finished horse is a true mystery, but we know that it is a logical progression. Very talented horses have been messed up, possibly like the one in the original post. (Read: Seabiscuit, Laura Hildebrand.) Not so talented horses have been trained right and the others belong to a good owner/trainer or bad/owner trainer because of nothing more than the roll of the dice.


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## Corporal (Jul 29, 2010)

I should mention that my QH, "Buster Brown," from the shelter where they put the idiot help on the horses that they were breaking, was balky. I spent a season schooling with my Prince of Wales spurs, asking first with my leg, then 2nd with the spurs if he didn't respond, and now I don't have to use them. I squeeze and HE moves out. This is impulsion and a human trainer HAS to train your horse to do this WITH a rider on him. He certainly knows how to move out when at liberty. And, I do NOT believe that he has any slower reaction time to stimuli than "Corporal", (1982-2009, RIP), who was an Arabian.


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## Skyseternalangel (Jul 23, 2011)

OP how're things going?


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## Smilie (Oct 4, 2010)

Off topic, but mustangs are not a breed!
There are some mustangs that were quite isolated, thus have a lot of the original genetics of their Iberian ancestors, brought tot he new World, but mustangs are in reality nothing more than feral horses, that have a very diverse influence from many breeds-horses that escaped or were just turned loose Hense, both the influence of various light horse breeds and even drafts
Breeds are man made, with controlled breeding, keeping track of parentage
Mustangs are the Heinz 57 of the horse world, some more than others


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## Canterklutz (Jul 20, 2012)

Skyseternalangel said:


> OP how're things going?


So a bit of an update. Been really busy with work so I haven't had much time to dedicate to a real good work session. The first day I tried Cherie's method I have to say it wasn't very pretty or pleasant in the least. He would back up when I put leg on or sit there and toss his head. Then it finally clicked and he would power forward with just a leg squeeze. Second day was even less prettier since he defaulted back to ignoring the leg squeeze so I reinforced it again. After that he was far more responsive and didn't require much reinforcement to maintain forward though it still wasn't the most ideal IMHO though much improved. 

Third day was probably one of the best rides I've had on him and reminded me of why I like this horse. Didn't ride with a crop or whip. He initially wanted to default again but snapped up at the second leg squeeze knowing what would ensue if he didn't comply which was great. Worked trot poles, extended trot down the longisde, collected at the short ends. Had a nice fluid forward canter and he was really able to sit down in it. No caterpillar-ing. It was quite frustrating before because I would constantly use leg, leg, leg to keep his energy and at the slightest half halt he would immediately dump so this was very exciting to me. He just seems a much happier horse to me. Before when I would praise him, if I said "Good-" he would just dump and be like "ok, done!" Today at any sign of praise he would still maintain his focus on work. He was also head to toe drenched in sweat and just seemed perkier and even more affectionate on the ground after the ride.


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