# Does anyone have experience with Kissing Spine?



## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

It could well be, but it might not. The discomfort during riding is very much a kissing spine thing - when the weight of the rider is on the horse's back, the spinous processes sink down and therefore "together", meaning they can "kiss" each other. Vet's will often recommend long and low type work - serpentines, poles to get the horse to lower the head, lunging in a pessoa etc. to try and stretch out the back and make the horse more comfortable. 

Invasive treatment wise, there is a surgery, which I imagine is very expensive, which involves cutting the supraspinous ligament, and removing parts of the spinous processes to stop them interfering. There's also steroid treatment, which you can combine with phsyio and exercises like the ones above.

One of my tutors had a four year old OTTB who developed kissing spines. She had turned him away when she got him, then did ground work with him, which he was a darling with. Whilst he had been turned away, he had shot up by several inches. When it came to being ridden, it was awful, he couldn't canter, couldn't pick up the right lead, and was generally all over the shop. Vet diagnosed kissing spines, that had developed when he had shot up in height so quickly, and my tutor made the awful decision to have him put down, as he would only ever have been pasture sound, and she couldn't justify putting him in a field for the next ten, fifteen, twenty years whilst always in mild discomfort.

BUT - it may not be the same for your boy. X-rays are your best bet for a diagnosis. As for prognosis, many horses will compete successfully having had the op, or having an injection/physio/exercise routine. Dressage horses are often over-represented in kissing spines stats, maybe because riders are more attuned to their way of going, or maybe due to the collection asked for, I don't know.

This study found that shock wave therapy, mesotherapy and exercise had the best outcome for kissing spines: Cookies Required - CAB Direct
And you can read more about the study here: Kissing Spines: Common, But Not Career-Ending (AAEP 2011) | TheHorse.com where they also include a prognosis.

Hope that helped!


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## DuffyDuck (Sep 27, 2011)

Has he been diagnosed with it?

I knew several different cases.

One was a lease-to-buy that was returned, the other kept bombing off with his rider.. scarily so.. and dislocated her shoulder. He is now a pasture pet.

Get a diagnosis, find out how bad it is and how developed. I don't know any dressage horses with kissing spine, however. That doesn't mean he can't be, I just don't know how badly it would effect him and cause pain.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

I knew of a GP dressage horse with kissing spine. He had to be PTS, he was not even comfortable enough to hang out in a pasture 
Kissing spine is very painful and the prognosis is not usually good.

Get him diagnosed by a vet, and go from there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I have appointments for vet/xrays and a second opinion vet. All I can do now is wait. 

I'm remembering times that I have seen him standing in the turnout and thinking he has a pained or sad expression on his face. When he was in with the 2 year old he did get chased a bit. Now that he is with another older paint I always find him laying down, often completely down so he looks dead. He's like that day or night in the turnout. I think he can't stretch out to sleep in his stall so he sleeps stretched out in the turnout.

I remember times lunging him to warm up for lessons and he is relaxed, almost lazy. Then I put the saddle on him and lead him back to the arena and many times goes back on the lunge because he freaks out. Often looking like he is being chased like something, tucking his tail between his legs like a scared dog and his eyes rolling back in his head. 

It just seems to fit. It's depressing because i don't know where to go from here, and yet it just fits.

Here is recent video of him under saddle. He was perfectly fine the week before the show, even the day before the show. No sign of pain, nothing. Had a great lesson on Wednesday then gave him Thursday and friday off, warmed up on the lunge line great in the morning and I thought it was going to be a great day. And then we went into the show ring for Intro C...... This video makes me cringe. Some may say it's a behavioral issue, a training issue, but he behaved this way with another person riding that day and he has behaved this way with my trainer on him too, both fabulous riders.


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## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

IMO, he looks seriously uncomfortable in that video. I would quit riding him for now, as you have said that that is where he is the worst behaved. If he seems comfortable lunging, then lunge him, ground drive, whatever. Do long and low ground work with him.

Now you can laugh at my attempts at drawing what I was trying to explain earlier in paint, how weight on the back can exacerbate kissing spines.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

He hasn't been ridden since April 5, just turnout. We also put some ground poles in his turnout in various places so he has to step over them to get to the water and the round bale. He tends to put his head down and low when he wants to step over something so I am taking advantage of that. I've stopped everything with him except grooming and turnout until xrays are done.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I suspect it's like trying to find the cause of lower back pain. When a friend's mare (short-backed) developed this she moved with a shuffle, often dragging her toes.


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

Get rid of that nose strap and change the bit.
Start by going through Dale Myler, The Art Of Bitting. Series of 6




Keep your hands still, your jerking on his mouth.
You can start there and see it there is an improvment.
If you don´t have a trainer.....find one.


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## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

amigoboy said:


> Get rid of that nose strap and change the bit.
> Start by going through Dale Myler, The Art Of Bitting. Series of 6
> Dale Myler Bitting Series: #1 Understanding Bit Resistance - YouTube
> Keep your hands still, your jerking on his mouth.
> ...


I think if Cinny wanted a riding crit, she would have put this in the Critique forum. She's already stated she has a trainer, who has ridden this horse, and he has gone the same for her. The horse shouldn't be acting like that through having a "nose strap", and a happy mouth bit.

Maybe read all the thread before you throw out essentially insulting ideas.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

IndiesaurusRex said:


> I think if Cinny wanted a riding crit, she would have put this in the Critique forum. She's already stated she has a trainer, who has ridden this horse, and he has gone the same for her. The horse shouldn't be acting like that through having a "nose strap", and a happy mouth bit.
> 
> Maybe read all the thread before you throw out essentially insulting ideas.



There is a horse at my barn who has kissing spine, I don't know if he is ridden or not but he is sound with whatever they're doing. As I understand it, some can go back to being ridden? But don't quote me on that as I have no personal experience with it. He does look awful uncomfortable in that video, and NOT from what amigo boy pointed out.


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

IndiesaurusRex said:


> I think if Cinny wanted a riding crit, she would have put this in the Critique forum. She's already stated she has a trainer, who has ridden this horse, and he has gone the same for her. The horse shouldn't be acting like that through having a "nose strap", and a happy mouth bit.
> 
> Maybe read all the thread before you throw out essentially insulting ideas.


It´s an observation, the horse is fighting the bit.
If there has been a trainer involved then they are not very good for not to see it right off!
Change trainers.


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

amigoboy said:


> It´s an observation, the horse is fighting the bit.
> If there has been a trainer involved then they are not very good for not to see it right off!
> Change trainers.


This is very insulting. The OP is doing her best, and I utterly understand what she is going through, having had a kissing spines scare myself. 

A happy mouth bit will NOT make a horse do this, nor will a nose strap. I guarantee, no matter what bit she rode in, this horse would do this. and it is quite clearly in pain in his back. 
Why are you so dismissive of kissing spines? It is not that rare, and the horse displays the symptoms.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

The OP has been having major issues with this horse for a LONG time now. She has changed tack, had chiro work, vet work, massages, changed trainers, had different people ride the horse... everything and anything you can think of. Nothing has worked. I think its safe to say this is a very reasonable assumption that he may have Kissing Spine.

I can see how watching that video would give amiegoboy the idea that it is rider error as she is fighting with him every stride in that test and is very tense. However looking beyond rider error(and OP I fully understand the ride you were having and you did good to stay calm through it) the horse is in pain. And its not just rider error that the pain has come from.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

I am a great believer in animals talking to people. The fact that your horse does not like being saddled would say to me that the saddle is uncomfortable, that has been ruled out, it might be kissing spine and an Xray will show that or, it could be the rider.

You are, in the video, riding very heavy. I do not know what you are doing with your hands but they are making matters far worse. He is being held back instead of being allowed to go forward which is why his trot is choppy and he keeps breaking into a canter. You are reaching for your stirrups which makes you bounce more.
If your trainer cannot see this then they are not an experienced trainer. 

I would like to see this horse ridden forward on a loose rein just to see how he would move.

I know you were not asking for a critique, but I truthfully feel that the problem stems from you.


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Foxhunter said:


> I am a great believer in animals talking to people. The fact that your horse does not like being saddled would say to me that the saddle is uncomfortable, that has been ruled out, it might be kissing spine and an Xray will show that or, it could be the rider.
> 
> You are, in the video, riding very heavy. I do not know what you are doing with your hands but they are making matters far worse. He is being held back instead of being allowed to go forward which is why his trot is choppy and he keeps breaking into a canter. You are reaching for your stirrups which makes you bounce more.
> If your trainer cannot see this then they are not an experienced trainer.
> ...


You have said what I was trying to figure out how to say beautifully lol. I couldn't come up with ways of saying it. So thank you for saying what I was thinking


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

In the video he is being riddin in a Micklem multimbridle (not a STRAP) with a happy moth double snaffle. If you don't know anything about Micklem Bridles you can find out more about them in the video below. He has a Thinline Ultra Comfort sheepskin pad, a saddle that has been properly fitted by a fitter with and without the thinline pad.

Yes I was holding him back. What isn't seen on this video is a ride in the warmup in which I dopped the rins and he bolted. It was either hold him in or go into a hand gallop, those were my two choices. A better choice would have been to NOT be there at all, and I understand that. But he merely seemed a little cranky the weeks going up to this and I thought it was just the weather change. So I went with my Quadrille team. It's already done with. 

It's funny how when someone who normally would have decent hands can get on a horse that is in pain and flings it's head and have it look like they are pulling and yanking. I was always taught to "follow" my horse's head gently. Like a rubber band, he pulls and my hands move forward with him, he dips his nose in and they come back. If a horse is flipping and flying it's head around trying to bolt, it can make any rider, even my trainer (who is currently on her way to show at Rolex btw) can look like they are yanking, pulling and fighting the horse. On another horse that day I received nice comments from the judge about my hands and seat. Sometimes it's not just about the rider, sometimes it IS a horse trying to say it's in pain.

The video is not on here for critique purposes but to show an example of how he behaves under saddle to help illustrate why I think he may have Kissing Spine. He has had Sacroiliac pain off and on since I purchased him and I think it's really his spine causing the pain and not the sacroiliac, or maybe it's both combined. 

It's going to be several weeks to get the xrays done and a couple of opinions due to all of the spring shot clinics the area vets are booked at. The plan is to lightly lunge him at a trot with NOTHING on his back and try to build up his top line from the ground. Everything I read says that building the top line will eventually help keep his spine in better placement and not hurt quite as much. And that's the basic plan until I get through the veterinary process. 

I may also request that my BO just leave him out in the turnout at night. That way he can stretch out when he lays down. He seems to prefer what my friends call the "dead horse" position these days...where he has all 4 legs completely straight while he's on his side, like a breyer horse that's been knocked over, LOL.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

When I first got Looby she had the most awful jog/trot and I know I was bumping up and down on her back as much as the OP is in that video because she was like a pneumatic drill to ride - and it didn't bother her one little bit. If a horses back is healthy it can put up with quite a lot as far as the rider is concerned
That horse looks so uncomfortable in his back that I would at least spend the money and get him X-rayed etc because at least then you could rule it out and know where to go to next with him. There are other things that can cause back pain and its better to know exactly what's going on than to keep guessing and worrying


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

He is pretty 'up down" and he hates when you post, it makes him act worse believe it or not. His choice is sitting trot, not 2 point, not posting, and not short stirrups with you standing like a jockey...i'ts sitting or you will get bucked ha ha. I've been told his trot is very "vertical" and that he feels like he is getting a lot of suspension when in reality he's almost dragging is feet (my trainers words)


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## evilc123 (Jul 17, 2012)

My horse just had surgery for kissing spine in January 2014, so I am quite familiar with it. The video you showed looks very similar to how my horse behaved prior to the surgery. My question is that if you have had x-rays in the past, how are you still unsure about whether he has KS? Can you post the x-rays for us to see? 

If you end up with a KS diagnosis, I would be happy to give you my phone # to talk to you about our experience with the surgery.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

evilc123 said:


> My horse just had surgery for kissing spine in January 2014, so I am quite familiar with it. The video you showed looks very similar to how my horse behaved prior to the surgery. My question is that if you have had x-rays in the past, how are you still unsure about whether he has KS? Can you post the x-rays for us to see?
> 
> If you end up with a KS diagnosis, I would be happy to give you my phone # to talk to you about our experience with the surgery.


We've never done x-rays of his back. He would occasionally come up lame and have xrays done of feet, legs, etc which never showed anything. The mysterious lamness would just as quickly go away.


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

I have also heard of horses having arthritis in the SI area. I agree that the horse is very much in pain in that video, and you aren't riding him poorly enough to cause that behavior. His trot looks a bit hard to sit, actually, so I think you're doing an admirable job given the circumstances. I unfortunately can't offer much in the way of advice, other than I think the pain is definitely in his back. He has it hollowed and very tense, which is causing him to send his head up and pick a huge fight with you. Poor guy just looks miserable. I hope you find out what it is.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Subbing to hear results of back x-rays. The OP has been trying so hard and doing so much with this horse for so long... It would be nice to hear a real cause and then solutions can be discussed!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

NorthernMama said:


> Subbing to hear results of back x-rays. The OP has been trying so hard and doing so much with this horse for so long... It would be nice to hear a real cause


It's sad but it's kind of how I feel. I have gone through 4 years of "it's your fault, you do this wrong and that wrong and bad bad rider" And all I know is that I get praise on the lesson horses and bashed on my own horse


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## NBEventer (Sep 15, 2012)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> It's sad but it's kind of how I feel. I have gone through 4 years of "it's your fault, you do this wrong and that wrong and bad bad rider" And all I know is that I get praise on the lesson horses and bashed on my own horse


I agree with you the horse is in pain. Its obvious something is wrong with him.

However I think the way you are riding him(and I can only imagine how much of a challenge he is to ride like this) is not helping the cause any. You are locked up on him and your hands all over the place just adds to it.

I know you didn't post the video for a critique so I wont say any more on it.

I do hope you can find what is wrong with him. It has to be very frustrating as it has been 4 years of "what now". As it seems to be one thing after another. 

Honestly I would put him out to pasture at this point and just retire him. He obviously is not meant to be ridden.

If you are set on finding out what is wrong(and kudos to you for doing so) have you tried diagnostic acupuncture?


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

It is extra hard to ride a horse like that, that is hollowed out like that, and won't come to bit consistently and drifts, and gos in spurts and all. it is much harder to ride that than to ride an "average" horse (if such a thing exists), and I am sure I would be very challenged to do any better. It's going to make rider errors become magnified and build back into the total equation, like a vicious cycle. I do believe that the riding is part of the problem, but if pain is at the core, then changing that, if at all possible, will help start the vicious cycle into a positive one by making Cinny more of a steady mount, which would help you be able to work on steadying your hand. (I agree that your stirrup is too long. shortening it should help a wee bit. )

I hope that the Xrays will give you more clarity. it must be hard to ride him , your beloved horse, when he is so obviously not enjoying it. we don't want our hroses to hate being ridden. WE want partners, not resentful slaves.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm in a similar situation with my mare who cannot canter without cross cantering behind. She cannot bend to the right at all, if you trot to the right, she has to bend left... She will fall apart if you try bending her right. She cannot canter in either direction with a rider. Not without severe discomfort. 

At first, I thought it was her stifles- tried exercises, poles and hills. Didn't help. 

Had the vet visit, did X rays on one hind leg (the lame one supposedly), everything came back normal. Tried stifle injections. Didn't help. 

Tried Pentosan (similar to adequan) injections for 6 months. It didn't help.

Had vet number 2 visit. He thought it was the other hind leg. Did more X rays which were normal. Thought it "might" be her pelvis. We injected her SI joint. It didn't help.

Vet 2 recommends I take her for a bone scan (scintigraphy). It is at least $1000 just for the scan, not including the lameness exam, blocks or X rays. It also requires the horse to stay at the vets for 24 hours for the radioactive waste to be removed. 

By now the condition is chronic. So the question is, do I really want to spend at least $1-$2,000 to get a diagnosis? And if it is something that requires surgery it will be more money for that. And what if it is not fixable?

At a certain point, it is cheaper to just buy another horse and retire your lame one. I've spent probably $1600 so far this year with no improvement. :-(


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

To the OP, I think you are doing great with your mare. People do not realize how difficult it can be to ride a lame horse! 

My mare's trot is terrible. One of the worst trots I've ever ridden. It takes a great deal of skill to get my mare to relax her back and stay comfortable. She really fights the sitting trot, and she fights turning right. It is a challenge. In order for me to ride her, I have to support her around the turns, and ask for her to turn her hindquarters in when turning right. Otherwise it hurts her and she gets worked up! 

At some point though, I will need to retire her. She seems okay with walk-trot, as long as we don't do more than 30 minutes. It is hard, as my old mare is retired as well. Pretty soon I won't have a horse to ride. 

In my opinion, I don't think I would ride your mare anymore. She looks miserable and so do you! I hope some X rays shed some light on the problem. Good luck


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## trailhorserider (Oct 13, 2009)

4horses said:


> She cannot bend to the right at all, if you trot to the right, she has to bend left...


This reminds me of my old Paint gelding. He was a wonderful horse. I got him when he was 18 and we had him euthanized around the age of 32 because his quality of life was deteriorating.

He was rideable up until about 2-3 years before his death. Something had happened to him and I don't know what because I didn't see him fall or anything, but he gradually started becoming crooked in his spine. He had an actual arc to his body that was never there before but I never could pinpoint when it actually happened. My best guess is he must have slipped in the mud or snow and tweaked his back. It gradually got more pronounced. 

So he had an actual arc when traveling and moved a bit sideways. Kind of like a horse being ponied to the racetrack. So he never really was rideable after that. Not for more than a few minutes anyway. But I loved him and kept him alive until it became apparent that he was deteriorating. He started having trouble getting back up after laying down. :-( 

But anyway, he traveled with his back in an arc and I suspect he must have slipped and fell.


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> In the video he is being riddin in a Micklem multimbridle (not a STRAP) with a happy moth double snaffle. If you don't know anything about Micklem Bridles you can find out more about them in the video below. He has a Thinline Ultra Comfort sheepskin pad, a saddle that has been properly fitted by a fitter with and without the thinline pad.
> 
> Yes I was holding him back. What isn't seen on this video is a ride in the warmup in which I dopped the rins and he bolted. It was either hold him in or go into a hand gallop, those were my two choices. A better choice would have been to NOT be there at all, and I understand that. But he merely seemed a little cranky the weeks going up to this and I thought it was just the weather change. So I went with my Quadrille team. It's already done with.
> 
> ...


And I am not being critiqueal, I am say what i saw, a horse throwing it´s head, trying to gap, foaming at the mouth!
Try riding with just the halter and see what happens, if he stops fighting then you know what the problem is. If there is still a problem then you need more expertis help than on some horse forum guess work.

Work with the simplest and maybe the most obvious, "if you turn the key and the car wont start....check the battery"!


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Amigo boy, most of us who have been here for along time have read more of Cinnys back story. There's more to it than you assume.


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

Having always taken a great interest in Fox Hunting I would spend what time I could at the local hunt kennels. 
One of the things I became very interested in was cutting up the flesh from fallen stock. (Farm animals that had died or been put down, including horses) 
Very few horses had died of natural causes, they had been shot for a variety of reasons.

What was surprising was the number of horses that did have kissing spines yet it had never proved a problem to them. 

My vet, who was an excellent equine vet, was surprised at the amount of animals I reported. Some he had treated, others he hadn't known.

A very important racehorse, Eclipse, (1764 - 1789) who was unbeaten in his career, and an influential sire. After his death his skeleton was put on show and this horse had a kissing spine.


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

My mare will toss her head and complain (or on bad days lose her mind) in a halter, snaffle, tom thumb, curb and bitless ON A LOOSE REIN when she is ether in pain or being a pain in the rear. The CAVISON (not strap) was obviously not an issue considering OPs horse could open its mouth. Her hands where everywhere because she was fighting with him/her. My mare turns into a basket case this time of year and i know the feeling. One day you have an amazing horse you can ride in a halter and bareback, gallop all over the place then calmly walk out the next day and never have them act up. A week later after spring hits she is boling, spazzing in place and an overall nut who is unsafe to ride. I dont care who or what trainer you have on a horse, when the horse falls apart, its hard to look good. 

My mare does not have the same issue is OPs horse but that horse way saying pain. When you drop the reins and your horse tries to run for the hills, you don't drop them again. When my mare suddenly wants to bolt, you bet im going to keep a tight rein, i don't feel like getting hit by traffic, or her running into something and killing us both. I bet OP did not feel like having a runaway horse at a show.


I dont think its a training issue if the horse is consistent regardless of rider, level of work or training put into it. Considering OP says she gets compliments riding other horses, who are not losing their crap, should say something about the horse. The horse LOOKS like its in pain. The horse is yelling that it is is pain and it wants to stop, either by being a brat and saying "Hey something it not ok" or by running away from the pain. Don't dismiss kissing spine, animals can only endure so much pain before they start trying to tell you. I like to rule out medical issu before behavioral issues with all animals. Animals don't up and change their behavior for no reason. This horse has good days where he/she is trying to be a good horse, then the behavior flips. There has to be a trigger for that kind of switch and if OP is not suddenly doing something completely different, then its an internal cause not external.

OP see if you have a vid of you riding a different horse. It might dispel some of the riding. As i said, when the horse is falling apart, the rider will not always look amazing.



*Please note my mare is not always a nut. It seems from end of march until september she has no brain undersaddle and im tired of getting hurt so she gets that time off. I have dealt with saddle fittings, changing bits having a trainer work with her (including bf who deals with dangerous problem horses) and she won't calm down or not freak out in place, if anything she just escalates. If she is going to misbehave, it wont matter what i have on her mouth or on her face If its getting ugly, tack is not going to make a difference. Once september hits she is a quiet as a lamb and anyone can ride her. I can ride her bareback and bridleless, jump her on trail and ride along traffic no issues. She has a reproductive issue that i think anything short of spaying might not fix. Anyway back to your scheduled program*


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

tinyliny said:


> Amigo boy, most of us who have been here for along time have read more of Cinnys back story. There's more to it than you assume.


There always is Tinyliny, been down that road many a time, and all too often the underlying problem is the most simple one when it comes too horses.


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

KigerQueen said:


> My mare will toss her head and complain (or on bad days lose her mind) in a halter, snaffle, tom thumb, curb and bitless ON A LOOSE REIN when she is ether in pain or being a pain in the rear. The CAVISON (not strap) was obviously not an issue considering OPs horse could open its mouth. Her hands where everywhere because she was fighting with him/her. My mare turns into a basket case this time of year and i know the feeling. One day you have an amazing horse you can ride in a halter and bareback, gallop all over the place then calmly walk out the next day and never have them act up. A week later after spring hits she is boling, spazzing in place and an overall nut who is unsafe to ride. I dont care who or what trainer you have on a horse, when the horse falls apart, its hard to look good.
> 
> My mare does not have the same issue is OPs horse but that horse way saying pain. When you drop the reins and your horse tries to run for the hills, you don't drop them again. When my mare suddenly wants to bolt, you bet im going to keep a tight rein, i don't feel like getting hit by traffic, or her running into something and killing us both. I bet OP did not feel like having a runaway horse at a show.
> 
> ...


Queeny, all the talk is cheap, I can only judge from what I see, whether it´s pic and videos of you and your horse or Cinny being filmed while riding.
I stipulated what I saw, gave referance to the Mayler biting series which are very explanitory and a suggestion as to a change and see if there is a differance.
Hauling the horse off for a kissing spine x-ray is jumping off the deep end before even trying something simple that is not going too cost anything to investigate.
If people chose to ignore it that´s up too them, maybe they like fighting with their horses, to my mind they sure like too complicate things.

Think I´ll look around for some other interesting subjects.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

amigoboy said:


> And I am not being critiqueal, I am say what i saw, a horse throwing it´s head, trying to gap, foaming at the mouth!
> Try riding with just the halter and see what happens, if he stops fighting then you know what the problem is. If there is still a problem then you need more expertis help than on some horse forum guess work.
> 
> Work with the simplest and maybe the most obvious, "if you turn the key and the car wont start....check the battery"!


Please read a little more than just part of a post or thread, I responded to that already. He does the same whether he is bridles, in a rope halter, hackamore, ec. I've already been through multiple bridles and bits originally thinking that it was a bridle or bit issue. He does the same no matter what you put him in, and this is because he has BACK PAIN not an issue with bit or bridle.

Horses are not cut and dry, black and white, or by "the book." There are many underlying HEALTH and PAIN issues that also effect how a horse behaves both in saddle and ground manners. My horse has a few psychological scars as well as physical scars from his first home. There is more here than meets the eye. He isn't just a well trained horse I picked up and am riding wrong.

In fact most people WON'T ride this horse. Or they get on him and immediately jump off because they are SCARED of him and what it feels like he is about to do. He is always ready to crow hop, buck, rear and bolt. It doesn't matter WHAT tack is on him, it is the same. 

Yes I am looking into what is wrong, the severity of it, etc. so that I can better decide his future. Does he just go out to pasture at only 11? Do we rehabilitate and find a home where they just want to do light trails? Or maybe better yet someone who wants to just show halter and other "ground" classes with him? I think he would enjoy the latter as he so does love to go to shows,just not be actually ridden. And if he is severely degenerated to the point that he is always in pain, then decisions will have to be made. Right now we are figuring out what is wrong and the extent of it, not in hopes of "fixing" him and going on and on, but in the hopes of figuring out the happiest outcome for him.


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## egrogan (Jun 1, 2011)

I have no personal experience with this, but have followed Cinny's threads for years and am always interested in his updates.

Anyway, I just happened to see this article this morning, and thought I would post it here if useful: Surgically Treating 'Kissing Spines' in the Standing Horse | BloodHorse.com


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

amigoboy said:


> Queeny, all the talk is cheap, I can only judge from what I see, whether it´s pic and videos of you and your horse or Cinny being filmed while riding.
> I stipulated what I saw, gave referance to the Mayler biting series which are very explanitory and a suggestion as to a change and see if there is a differance.
> Hauling the horse off for a kissing spine x-ray is jumping off the deep end before even trying something simple that is not going too cost anything to investigate.
> If people chose to ignore it that´s up too them, maybe they like fighting with their horses, to my mind they sure like too complicate things.
> ...


This isn't something that cropped up just yesterday. This is something that has been ongoing for 4 YEARS, working with 3 chiropractors, 4 different vets, 10 farriers, 3 very qualified, well known and well respected trainers in the area, plus one who came out from Colorado (she made time for me when she came out to do a clinic) who is a nationally well known trainer. Two many bridles and bitless bridles to mention, Dr Cook, Micklem, etc. Bits, you name it It's been through his mouth, sprenger, myler, happy mouth (which he is the best in) mullen, snaffle, french link, double link, full cheek, loose ring, D ring. Saddles and saddle fittings. His current saddle has been checked by 2 different respected fitters and both have deemed it to not be a saddle issue. Trust me, whatever you can think of, it's been on him and tried already. 

Yes you see just one video, but myself as well as others who know me on here have said I have gone through it all, tried everything, this is an unresolved issue. What you aren't getting through that sweet, well meaning head of yours is that we have TRIED all the simple stuff, then the not so simple, and on and on for 4 years. I'm not just jumping off the deep end here. Trust me, it's all been done!

Plus I'd rather pay the 150 - 200 dollars for the spine x-ray and be POSITIVE it is or isn't the problem rather than spend another 200 dollars on more bits and tack that just don't help when we have spent well over 1K in specialized bridles and bits for this horse already. It's called making an educated decision for my horse. I don't want to just guess or assume he does or doesn't have a physical or genetic problem. I want to know 100% positively yes or no so that I can do what is best for the horse and end his pain. 

And now what I am asking for, my reason for posting is to get insight and knowledge through other people's experience with this. What they did. Did they rehabilitate, pasture, surgery? What was involved in rehabilitation? How long did it take? I want to know the pros and cons of each thing, and did it work? Where are the horses now?


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Well said Cinny. I understand completely what you are going through. 

Now, I have some information for you... I was talking to my trainer today, and he has had 2 horses pass through his yard, one who is still there, who had kissing spines. They got surgery for it, which was non invasive. 

The first horse, was an ottb, and he had the most SEVERE kissing spines you could think of. A welsh vet went up to him, with a pair of scissor (obviously making a small incision first), and simply cut the ligament which held the vertebrae where they where. The horse literally let out a big sigh and relaxed. His other horse, who is a dressage horse, also got this surgery, and he is now flying along, doing all sorts  
Rehab from surgery, isn't toooooo bad... 6 months, with all sorts of exercises to strengthen the back and blah blah blah. But its apparently a hugely successful surgery, and much less invasive than the older surgery, involving removing the 'kissing' vertebrae.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

egrogan said:


> I have no personal experience with this, but have followed Cinny's threads for years and am always interested in his updates.
> 
> Anyway, I just happened to see this article this morning, and thought I would post it here if useful: Surgically Treating 'Kissing Spines' in the Standing Horse | BloodHorse.com


Awesome article. I have that printed out for my notebook I've been building up. I'm using the articles to help come up with questions etc for after the xrays etc are done. 

I've now (as of half an hour ago) had 3 professional opinions which now point to getting x-rays done. 2 different chiropractors and his Certified Equine Positional Release therapist have all said they think it's highly likely that this is Cinny's problem. His EPR therapist today said that the area where his lumbar and sacral vertabrae meet they are extremely close together, and this is the area that pains Cinny so much. It was previously diagnosed as pinched nerves in his sacroiliac in 2011 but maybe KS was the issue all along. Friday he gets chiro again and I will be given some rehab exercises that should help him. Even if it turns out he DOESN'T have it, the exercises will still benefit his topline so it will be a good thing.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

I suggested the X ray because we went through a 'thing' with a mare that we paid a lot of money for, she was seen by good chiropractors and like you we went through all the suggested things - change of saddles, change of bit/bitless, bareback (that ended badly), saddle pads, massage therapy and a spell with a person who rode top level in eventing but all with no success. She just got worse so we decided to send her for a complete examination fortunately paid for by our horse insurance it turned out that she had a large melanoma tumor on her spinal cord.
That 'pneumatic drill' feel usually happens when a horse isn't pushing forwards from behind - pulling itself along with its front legs instead. If his back is hurting him somewhere he wont want to use his hind end correctly to work through it
In Looby's case it was because she'd been trained to work in a 'false headset' so she looked 'collected' but wouldn't ride from behind into your hands because she was afraid of any contact with the bit - avoiding it by getting her nose on her chest
I don't think that is your horses problem because he's the same in a halter - whereas she improved when ridden in a bitless bridle and then in a Happy Mouth shaped mullen mouth bit. She now has a lovely smooth trot


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Awesome article. I have that printed out for my notebook I've been building up. I'm using the articles to help come up with questions etc for after the xrays etc are done.
> 
> I've now (as of half an hour ago) had 3 professional opinions which now point to getting x-rays done. 2 different chiropractors and his Certified Equine Positional Release therapist have all said they think it's highly likely that this is Cinny's problem. His EPR therapist today said that the area where his lumbar and sacral vertabrae meet they are extremely close together, and this is the area that pains Cinny so much. It was previously diagnosed as pinched nerves in his sacroiliac in 2011 but maybe KS was the issue all along. Friday he gets chiro again and I will be given some rehab exercises that should help him. Even if it turns out he DOESN'T have it, the exercises will still benefit his topline so it will be a good thing.



Even if it is KS, it is DEFINITELY not the end of the world. Numerous competition horses compete, having undergone this surgery, or by using treatments and steroids, etc etc. Obviously it is not the best news, but it would be nice for you to get some closure at last, and continue on with your life without the constant worry.  I see no reason why the surgery would not work, and during the 6 month rehab period, you could work on perfecting his ground work. 
Best of luck.


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## Sahara (Jul 23, 2010)

You clearly care about this horse very much. What I get from this is that if you have exhausted all avenues of therapy (vet, massage, chiro, dental) and are still having issues then it HAS to go back to the way this horse carries itself when being ridden. Four years of tense, braced, hollow movement is absolutely going to show up as pain somewhere. This little saint of a horse needs to go back to basics. Someone needs to help him learn how to stay relaxed under saddle. The rider has to help him get relaxed in his jaw and poll from the very first step he makes. I wouldn't even trot him until he can walk a full circle with proper bend from poll to dock in a totally relaxed, happy state. From the looks of it, that could take a whole month of consistent riding - at nothing more than a walk.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Sahara said:


> You clearly care about this horse very much. What I get from this is that if you have exhausted all avenues of therapy (vet, massage, chiro, dental) and are still having issues then it HAS to go back to the way this horse carries itself when being ridden. Four years of tense, braced, hollow movement is absolutely going to show up as pain somewhere. This little saint of a horse needs to go back to basics. Someone needs to help him learn how to stay relaxed under saddle. The rider has to help him get relaxed in his jaw and poll from the very first step he makes. I wouldn't even trot him until he can walk a full circle with proper bend from poll to dock in a totally relaxed, happy state. From the looks of it, that could take a whole month of consistent riding - at nothing more than a walk.


Working him in this way is a main part of what led us to thinking it is physical. The past year with him has been going back to basics. All last year, walk walk walk. Hill work, trail work, all at a walk. What happens, and this happens with my trainer, or my friend riding as well, what happens is he will start to go there, starts to relaxe, he gets nice and supple and then BAM, it's like a bee stings him in the butt all of a sudden and he kind of lurches forward or moves sideways while throwing his head up. And then you recover him, and he starts to get there again, he relaxes into the bridle, he starts to get supple when BAM it happens again. 

Another thing to note, and I don't mean to sound grouse, is I have also noticed when he poops, he can't walk and poop at the same time anymore and his back legs start to shake. Then when he finishes he jumps forward, again like it was painful to poop. His dung is nice and healthy looking, and he has been through a recent wellness exam with no signs of tummy trouble so I think that when he raises up to poop, it hurts his back too. I've seen him start bucking in the turnout after pooping. I didn't really think about it until this moment as i'm writing this.


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## rhosroyalvelvet (Sep 5, 2013)

Firstly I want to say you are doing everything possible to work this through and I applaud you for that. You are doing everything in your power with vets chiropracters farriers ect and you obviously love this horse very much.

From what I have seen though Kissing Spines could very well be there and it may be the cause of all of this I see A LOT of hand work in that video. If a horse is getting a hard time with hand work he will predict that this is going to happen no matter what you ride him in and this will happen for a long time untill he learns to accept that he it will not happen again.

Take for example this hunt horse a friend of mine was borrowing. Every single time his rider would pull his head going over the jump. He would jerk his head back in response. When my friend rode him he still did that. No reins he still did that. No bridle he still did that. Change saddle he still did that. Chiropracter he still did that ect ect it took about a month before he began to accept.

This video may not be a good one ect ect, but with a horse who is having problems, getting strong with your hand will only make things worse. You said you were following his head as you were thought to dobut I quite clearly saw several jerks which will ruin the basis of trust in his mouth. You said that he bolted off with you. Not a good experience for either of you but you can not resort to hands in this situation. It is not good on any horse but it is especially bad on a horse who is having problems. You have to use your body and leave your hands alone. If needs must you can turn into a wall to stop, but as tricky as it may seem I have always been told especially in situations like these use your body and leave your hands alone. Use lunge rein if you must but I am sure you get my point.

All I saw was a snap shot of you two together, so I do not know what you are like on a more regular basis. I AM NOT getting at you just saying what I saw, and how to help you in this situation. The chances are it is kissing spines, and if it is, and if he comes through it this will be important at the other side of this ordeal you have had to go through. How come the chiropracters were not able to say if he had kissing spines or not? I would have thought they would be able to say as when they are fixing your horse they are working with the skeletal system.

I really hope this works out for you. I know how frustrating not getting a pony right can be especially when you are working as hard as yourself. I also recognise how difficult it is not to use your hands in that situation especially if they are not really listening to your half halts, and I probably wouldn't have done any better than you. I probably would have been put on the lunge with no hands untill we settled but you obviously didn't have that option.

I really wish you the best of luck through this and hope it all works out, I can see from this thread how hard you've worked and know how contraversal my topic of hands has been when other people said it, but the reason I posted it is because its my tupence on the issue, and Kissing Spines or not those hands will have to quieten down in those situations. Hopefully the X-rays will give you some more conclusive results.

Best of luck!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I'm sharing this video because in the beginning where she describes how her horse was, and then what happened,the list of symptoms which each one seems to be describing Cinny, etc. Everything mirrors Cinny. You could replace the name Holly with Cinny! It looks oh so familiar! Starting at :51 to 2:42 is the part the just hits me like a sledgehammer.


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## ~*~anebel~*~ (Aug 21, 2008)

That horse does not need a never ending supply of carrots... I wonder if either vet has mentioned that lugging around the extra 300lbs is doing that horse no favors.
And honestly it looks to me that the rehab just consists of stretching work, and probably correct riding after that. Yes it is difficult to ride a difficult horse, but is no excuse. I would be very interested for a ride on Cin before making a judgement, but will be interesting to get the back x rays.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

~*~anebel~*~ said:


> That horse does not need a never ending supply of carrots... I wonder if either vet has mentioned that lugging around the extra 300lbs is doing that horse no favors.
> And honestly it looks to me that the rehab just consists of stretching work, and probably correct riding after that. Yes it is difficult to ride a difficult horse, but is no excuse. I would be very interested for a ride on Cin before making a judgement, but will be interesting to get the back x rays.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's why I said the first part. I don't know if I agree with the rehab part as much and there are no videos after this so I really don't know what happened to the horse. It's just that the description really made sense.

I did find some videos of a few other horses post "standing" procedure. One of them was a nice 1st level ride only 6 months post op with a 67%. I think I see more options than I originally did. I need to talk to my husband more after we have x-rays but I think if it is KS, then perhaps the standing procedure and then work with him and see where he is next year before deciding to sell.

It's not that I want to WIN with Dressage. It's not so much that I want to do upper levels. But Cinny hasn't improved scores. In 2011 we received scores in the low 60's for Intro level tests at the first show of the season (I'll use this show as example). 2012 we did mid to high 50's intro, and low 50's training level. 2013 Low 50's in Intro, mid 40's in Training. And this year at the first show of the season we sunk to low 40's for intro and didn't even try training. 

The basic training is there. When he is rested for several weeks and then you go for a little ride, he is perfect and everyone who sees him is amazed at how nice he does, but then the next day he is cranky, grits his teeth, and wants to bronc, bolt, and fling his head. And it remains that way until he has a week or more off. Even a day or two doesn't help. He is in pain.


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

That makes it sound as if its a pain issue. A friend of mine bought a very nice WB horse last year that had been used for breeding for two years, had a full PPE done too. She came back into work great and seemed to be doing really well then suddenly it all went downhill. If she had a month off she'd be fine for a while then back to being dangerous. Turned out it had an old back injury that settled down if the horse was never ridden and recurred very quickly when it was.


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## Palomine (Oct 30, 2010)

What diagnostics have been done or are going to be done?

Ultrasounds, MRI, cat scans?

Horse could have all sorts of things going in internally, from retained testicle under spine, to fecalith, to who knows what.

That would be the way I would go if I could.

I'd stay off of horse until this was figured out.

As to hands, you say you have no problems on lesson horses, only this horse? Do you have video of those rides?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

No, unfortunately. But as I will probably be on lesson horses in the near future I will get some. I usually only videos when I was interested in what my own horse looked like and how he was moving. Where I take lessons there are wonderful mirrors and you can see yourself the whole time, plus my trainer usually compliments my hands and says "why can't you ride your horse that way." Or at least she used to say that until she got on him a few times.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

4horses said:


> To the OP, I think you are doing great with your mare. People do not realize how difficult it can be to ride a lame horse!










That's cos most of us ride sound horses! if they go lame you stop riding them, or am I missing something?

Back to poor Cinny, I thin it has been said before, this poor boy does not seem dressage material, not every horse can move on up through the levels, and it seems over the years there has been a downward spiral for this guy. I am no vet, but as a lay person with an opinion, and lets face it every horse person has at least one strong opinion on a subject....Cinny has stress issues, and that causes him to tense and brace his muscles, that causes pain, and restricts his movement. I could quite see he would be different with another rider in another discipline, and not just for short bursts, a long term change until he chills and can stretch out again before he tries to round up to his work.


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## Shoebox (Apr 18, 2012)

> To the OP, I think you are doing great with your mare. People do not realize how difficult it can be to ride a lame horse!


How did I miss this bit?

I've been following this thread, just lurking, but this jumps out at me. People don't realize how hard it is to ride a lame horse because if your horse is lame you _shouldn't be riding it._ Or has something changed recently? 

I am interested to see the results of Cinny's X-rays. I agree with Golden Horse, I think Cinny might do well in a different discipline, but it doesn't seem he'll end up a high ranking Dressage horse.

Then again, what do I know about Dressage, I suppose.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Interesting, have just watched the video again and a number of things struck me..

1) Your hands move an awful lot, a horse is seeking calm and consistent contact, which they simply cannot get if your hands move that much. What was very very noticeable, round about the 4:19 mark, after your free walk, he is on the rail and walking quietly, but the second you pick up your reins he is tense again.

2) You look totally tense the whole time, and I can understand why, given the ride, but it goes to that whole feedback loop, he is tense, you are tense, and you both get worse as time goes on, but again it is probably a lot of the issue.

3) Err, well err  Look I'm just going to say it, not as a criticism, but as a matter of fact, because a lot of us have the same issue.....I would invest n a good sports bra to ride in, or do what I have done, get a body protector, not only does it work to help you relax, because maybe if you do fall it won't be as bad, but it also keeps the girls a little better under control.

All in all he MAY have kissing spine, he may not, time and investigation will tell, but your tenseness and your hands, well I can sooo relate and I know if I tried to ride Emmy right now the result would be very much the same as that video, she would be head up, hollow, I would be perching on my crotch, not breathing, and fussing with her head the whole time, which is why I'm improving myself a lot before I try her again.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

So the plan is this: About a month ago we had started working on rehoming Cinny, as I said in another thread, we are sort of in a bad marriage together, we love each other but want different things. I had a couple of potential buyers but then the possibility of having this back issue came back so I told them the sale was on hold and why. I have been completely honest with everybody. So selling is on hold. 

Tomorrow one of the areas top chiros is coming out to give me an opinion and a week from tomorrow he is set for x-rays. Both of our local vets are full to the brim with spring shots, etc so it's difficult timing to get x-rays done unless it's a life or death situation. 

After X-rays are done and we get a few opinions we will decide on what to do next. Either way, Cinny is to go to another home, but I want to be positive of what is or isn't going on with him before handing him over to somebody else. If Surgery is an option he will most likely receive it and then we will do some rehab before finding him his next home.

After diagnostics are done and decisions are made he will be going to my friend's pasture either A) until another home is found or B) he is rehabbed and then goes to another home. Or C) until we find a retirement home that will take him. 

Today my hubby and I started our search back up for my next horse, but maybe I should save that for another thread.....


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

Since you posted the link to your video I took a look back through them all and wonder what was going on in the beginning of January when he was on Bute for lameness? 
Did he have an accident or something?
Apologies for not going through all your threads - but it seems like it could fit into this discussion because he was moving very oddly compared to one of him running loose in October 2013 when he looked like different horse - free moving, long flowing stride and the sort of horse that did look like a potential dressage prospect 
If he's in constant pain then that would make him fractious, edgy and tense so maybe its not his normal temperament to be that way


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

That horse is in a lot of pain for it to be bad riding. If this is a result of several years of riding, you two definitely aren't a match. However, hasn't OP had trouble with this horse (and not others) for basically years now? So he's had pain all along that has been getting worse when he's in work, which you'd expect if he works that tense all the time. I think there's an underlying issue of some kind. 

Does he do this in side reins with a caveson (not a bit)? That could be something to try maybe to see if it loosens his back up a little. If you can teach him to give on the ground and see if you can get him to work correctly on the lunge, maybe then with some chiro and massage, he might feel better. That might break your cycle some. Still if there's a major issue underlying all this, which I think there is, it will probably come back when you start riding him again. :-(


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Jaydee he had one of his "mystery" lamenesses in january. One day he just was "off." I called the vet, did the whole gambit of xrays, etc, vet found nothing. Next day he was perfectly fine. This has been happening on and off since about last summer. 

Viranh he is like this no matter WHO rides him, me, my trainer, my friend. In fact the person I got him from gave him to me because he kept bucking her off and she ended up in the hospital. He hasn't bucked anyone off since I bought him, but he has always ridden stiffly. As I said before, he has had many diagnosises over the past 4 years and vets, etc always end up scratching their heads when the normal treatment for each diagnosis does not seem to work for more than a week.


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

There has got to be some lameness there. I hope you manage to find it. I think in your place I'd probably have given up long ago and sent him to retire, so I guess kudos to you for continuing to try to treat him. Best wishes for finding a horse that you can enjoy and learn on rather than fight with and worry about.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Viranh said:


> There has got to be some lameness there. I hope you manage to find it. I think in your place I'd probably have given up long ago and sent him to retire, so I guess kudos to you for continuing to try to treat him. Best wishes for finding a horse that you can enjoy and learn on rather than fight with and worry about.


As I said, we are pretty sure it's Kissing Spine, a back issue.


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## evilc123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Since my horse just had the less invasive KS surgery in January, I thought people might be interested to see his before and after x-rays. Also, I am under the impression that this surgery is not widely available yet. My guy was one of only a few who has had the surgery at Tufts and they are pretty selective about which patients they agree to operate on since they want to have a good rate of success. We had to build up his topline quite a bit before the surgery to improve his rehab after. We have just started riding him again for probably 3-4 weeks since the surgery and so far *knock wood* he is a different horse! He is much calmer and better behaved and also doesn't toss his head and resist the bit the way he used to. Also, for the record, we stopped riding him THE DAY that he was diagnosed with KS...but leading up to that we postulated that his issues were caused by many other things including mouth soreness, etc.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

evilc123 said:


> Since my horse just had the less invasive KS surgery in January, I thought people might be interested to see his before and after x-rays. Also, I am under the impression that this surgery is not widely available yet. My guy was one of only a few who has had the surgery at Tufts and they are pretty selective about which patients they agree to operate on since they want to have a good rate of success. We had to build up his topline quite a bit before the surgery to improve his rehab after. We have just started riding him again for probably 3-4 weeks since the surgery and so far *knock wood* he is a different horse! He is much calmer and better behaved and also doesn't toss his head and resist the bit the way he used to. Also, for the record, we stopped riding him THE DAY that he was diagnosed with KS...but leading up to that we postulated that his issues were caused by many other things including mouth soreness, etc.


Is that the surgery where they just remove the ligaments instead of actually cutting bone away?


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## evilc123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Is that the surgery where they just remove the ligaments instead of actually cutting bone away?


Yup! It is! Actually...they don't remove the ligament, they just snip it in between the vertebrae that are rubbing together.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

evilc123 said:


> Yup! It is! Actually...they don't remove the ligament, they just snip it in between the vertebrae that are rubbing together.


Yeah, that's the one I was going to talk to my vet about. He is usually up on all the new techniques and runs the only horse clinic/hospital within a 2 hours drive. 

I keep telling my hubby that once he gets the "snip" that he might still prove to be a nice horse, and maybe still do training or 1st level dressage but he is already "DONE" with Cinny which is understandable. I think he was done with him after he spooked on trail last fall and I ended up in the trauma center getting x-rays.


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## evilc123 (Jul 17, 2012)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Yeah, that's the one I was going to talk to my vet about. He is usually up on all the new techniques and runs the only horse clinic/hospital within a 2 hours drive.
> 
> I keep telling my hubby that once he gets the "snip" that he might still prove to be a nice horse, and maybe still do training or 1st level dressage but he is already "DONE" with Cinny which is understandable. I think he was done with him after he spooked on trail last fall and I ended up in the trauma center getting x-rays.


Understandable. However, it is documented that many horses improve *dramatically *after this surgery. I can certainly say that is the case with mine. He was acting up so much that people were starting to consider him to be too dangerous to handle, and now he is a total puppy dog. Also...horses have come back from this surgery and gone on to do competitive eventing, so I'm sure 1st level dressage wouldn't be an obstacle. 

Anyway...seems like you still need to get an absolute diagnosis and then see whether he would be a candidate for the surgery. Please keep the board updated, because I am eager to hear how the x-rays go. Also, if you end up getting the KS diagnosis, feel free to contact me if you have any questions about the surgery. I have been elbow-deep in it for months! Best of luck!


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Hubby says Cin acts up because Cin just doesn't like dressage and he feels he will still not like dressage after surgery.


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## Yogiwick (Sep 30, 2013)

Foxhunter said:


> I am a great believer in animals talking to people. The fact that your horse does not like being saddled would say to me that the saddle is uncomfortable, that has been ruled out, it might be kissing spine and an Xray will show that or, it could be the rider.
> 
> You are, in the video, riding very heavy. I do not know what you are doing with your hands but they are making matters far worse. He is being held back instead of being allowed to go forward which is why his trot is choppy and he keeps breaking into a canter. You are reaching for your stirrups which makes you bounce more.
> If your trainer cannot see this then they are not an experienced trainer.
> ...


Only read the first few pages, will catch up later. But I definitely agree with this.

When I first got my horse we went through a period like this- after coming back from my trainers and when I started doing more myself. He has a VERY sensitive back.

Ride him UP and FORWARD. I would not be sitting trot like that on a horse like that.

Post the trot, post BIG do lots of two point, get OFF his back. Let go of his face, let him go. You're holding him back and pushing down onto his back and he is obviously not happy.

I'm not saying it's definitely you and there are no physical issues but the rider in that video is definitely not helping the issues.

Just let him go and get OFF the back (even if it means putting literally no weight) and then once he becomes happier work on teaching him long and low and how to carry himself.

Also, (and please don't jump on me for this just being matter of fact, not "being mean") the rider in that video is slightly on the heavier side, not drastically so and I wouldn't say overly so for the horse but for the situation being what it is. Also the horse moving the way it is is causing the rider to "bounce" (not drastically so just with the movement) trust me I know how hard it is to sit nicely on a horse moving like that but obviously the movement isn't helping the issue.

I see people are mentioning xrays but didn't you already get xrays??

I like to think if the horse has kissing spine the vet would notice. I remember a vet telling me that a large portion of horses (as in most) have some degree of kissing spine, obviously most of those are perfectly functional but there are lots of compounding factors.

Again, I think there is SOME physical issue but am not sure how much other factors are contributing.

Do what you can to make his life stress free, turnout 24/7, lots of hay, buddies if he likes them, etc.


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## tinyliny (Oct 31, 2009)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Yeah, that's the one I was going to talk to my vet about. He is usually up on all the new techniques and runs the only horse clinic/hospital within a 2 hours drive.
> 
> *I keep telling my hubby that once he gets the "snip" that he might still prove to be a nice horse, and maybe still do training or 1st level dressage but he is already "DONE" with Cinny which is understandable. *I think he was done with him after he spooked on trail last fall and I ended up in the trauma center getting x-rays.


Do not talk to husbands about the "snip". it has a whole different meaning to them, and might cause them to bolt, or rear, or who knows what.


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## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

Did your vet or anyone ever mention PSSM?

Just a thought because you mention him being on again off again and coming up lame for unknown reasons.

Whle PSSM is most common in draft horses I was lucky (or unlucky) enough to have APHA with it... There is a genetic test available for it... it might be worth considering. 
Another thing; if you look it up the most common symptom is tieing-up. I was convinced my horse did not have PSSM because he never tied up! One day the horse was colicing, we all thought. When the vet got there she suggested we do the test for PSSM, my horse was on again off again with mysterious lameness and stiffness for over a year while he was supposed to be in training! 
I guess I was lucky, she had diagnosed two other horses with the disease and after treating him over the year she was starting to put two and two together.

I was shocked when the test confirmed his PSSM!


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## sarahfromsc (Sep 22, 2013)

The 'snip' equates to a lobotomy. My husband was brain dead for three days. No bolt. No rear. No nothing. He balked. He did a lot of balking. Just saying.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Today one of my vets, the one I usually use for second opinions was at the barn doing chiro on a horse and was able to fit him in. He tested his spine with some testers, then palpated, poked, prodded, did a few flexion tests and then said he wasn't going to get out the xray equipment because my horse has nothing really wrong with his spine. He asked me quite a few questions about Cinny's history, his personality, what sets him off, when he's better, the random lameness that switches legs and never gets diagnosed was touched on and then he said he was positive he knows what is wrong with Cinny and it's most likely NOT KS.

He says Cinny's symptoms and behaviors are textbook for Lyme Disease. In fact the Mag deficiency, ulcer (wasn't scoped), and pinch sacral nerve were all most likely misdiagnosis and that it has been Lyme Disease all along for the past 4 years. 

He schooled me about Lyme disease and treatment a bit and I've done some research after getting home. This is what I have learned. Only about 25% of horses bitten by a tick carrying the disease actually gets sick, the other 75 never show symptoms their whole life but can come up positive when a blood test is run. It also lays dormant. It can be dormant for years, or go dormant on and off for weeks at a time and then come back. The trigger is exercise and/or stress. So, this answers why when Cinny is at rest he comes back fine and then suddenly is not. He has had 3 weeks of rest, turnout only with a very docile turnout mate. Today all of his large mass muscles were very sensitive and sore. He snapped and bit at the air, kicked out, and bounced around wildly while the vet was palpating his many muscles. It was really sad to see.

But there is light at the end of the tunnel. It is treatable. Daily medications and he has to be lunged or otherwise exercised to keep the virus active. If it goes dormant the treatment will not work. The vet says in 2 weeks he should be a completely different/normal horse again and rideable!


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

Well that's good news! I'm so glad you've got a diagnosis and a treatment plan. Those tick born illnesses are awful. I've had my dogs get them despite SEVERAL chemical repellents and the poor pups were very sick until the antibiotics worked. Hope Cinny is feeling better soon. IME the antibiotics start making a difference pretty quickly.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Good to hear you found something out. So y'all are not testing but going ahead and treating it sounds like?


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

SullysRider said:


> Good to hear you found something out. So y'all are not testing but going ahead and treating it sounds like?


Yes. The vet says he's pretty sure that Lyme disease is the culprint and doesn't want me to waste the money on an actual test as he says it's expensive. He wants to just get right down to the treatment. IF he isn't better in 2 weeks, he will bring out the xray equipment but he doubts we will need it.


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## Drifting (Oct 26, 2011)

Chiming in here a little late. Do not rule out PSSM so easily just yet. 

We had a mare that we, and our Vet thought was Lymes. Tested her twice, showed negative. Decided to do a 5 panel because she was acting very similar to another horse with PSSM1 that's on the farm and she came back PSSM n/H. Since she was on a breeding lease, we sent her back to her owners. The test is 95 dollars from Animal Genetics, if you want to try.

The owner of that mare had another horse that they thought had Lymes, did the 5 panel and she came up PSSM1 n/h too.


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## SullysRider (Feb 11, 2012)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Yes. The vet says he's pretty sure that Lyme disease is the culprint and doesn't want me to waste the money on an actual test as he says it's expensive. He wants to just get right down to the treatment. IF he isn't better in 2 weeks, he will bring out the xray equipment but he doubts we will need it.


I didn't meant to sound rude or anything, I was just wondering. Hopefully it works! You'll have to keep us updated.


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## Elana (Jan 28, 2011)

Reading this and looking at the video.. that horse has something going on (the rider is not helping but there is more to this). 

I read the Lyme discussion.. but here is another wild thought. Has anyone thought of EPM? That pooping and shaking thing has me thinking.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I looked at PSSM but his symptoms don't really match, but he does have all of the symptoms for Lyme. He has never "tied up," doesn't have stringhalt (and never has),no muscle tremors, He backs up nicely without issue, doesn't have shivers, His urine is a nice light, and normal color, he doesn't paw or want to roll after work, he doesn't stretch out like he has to urinate after work.... He only really has a few out of the symptoms really. But I will keep it in mind if the Lyme Disease treatment does not work.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Only half tongue in cheek:

Have you ever considered donating him to a vet school for study?

Have you ever scared yourself by adding up how much your little $600 horse has cost in vet treatments, or how many different diagnoses have been given for his problems?

Now add in all the training, different tack and equipment, it is pretty scary isn't it.

If the current treatment works are you still going to list him? I'm wondering if your boyfriend isn't right when he says that Cinny just plain doesn't like dressage, not every horse is happy with being ridden in contact dancing in an arena, although Appy G did it, he was never really happy with it, just not his thing, he was so much better in a western saddle being ridden on a loose rein.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

I've considered all of these things and Hubby and I agree is his part of the family. He has a definite pasture/play home if things still don't work out. As for donating him, I never really thought of that but not sure what his quality of life would be. Right now our main concern is his quality of life. That starts with trying out one more treatment, even if it's a little more money. And then go from there. I think if this doesn't work though, he will either go to the pasture home, or my farrier really wants him, issues and all. He runs a little "rehab" center for OTTB's and other horses needed rehab and a little extra patience and Cinny just ADORES him. So there are options. But I don't want to hand him off and then say "he needs these meds, and those meds, good luck with that." It just wouldn't be right.


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## NorthernMama (Mar 12, 2008)

Fingers crossed that it is Lyme and treatment works!


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## KigerQueen (Jun 16, 2013)

Hope it works! I wish I could figure out my mares moody issues -_-'.


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> Today one of my vets, the one I usually use for second opinions was at the barn doing chiro on a horse and was able to fit him in. He tested his spine with some testers, then palpated, poked, prodded, did a few flexion tests and then said he wasn't going to get out the xray equipment because my horse has nothing really wrong with his spine. He asked me quite a few questions about Cinny's history, his personality, what sets him off, when he's better, the random lameness that switches legs and never gets diagnosed was touched on and then he said he was positive he knows what is wrong with Cinny and it's most likely NOT KS.
> 
> *He says Cinny's symptoms and behaviors are textbook for Lyme Disease. In fact the Mag deficiency, ulcer (wasn't scoped), and pinch sacral nerve were all most likely misdiagnosis and that it has been Lyme Disease all along for the past 4 years.
> *
> ...


After reading Horse & Hound
Understanding Lyme disease |Horse & Hound
I don´t buy that anymore than the Kissing Spin therory or any of the other bright ideas popping up.
How some vet can stand flat foot and say "that´s Lyme Disease" (a borellia strain that is very hard to diognos) without a blood test is beyond me!


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## IndiesaurusRex (Feb 23, 2011)

amigoboy said:


> After reading Horse & Hound
> Understanding Lyme disease |Horse & Hound
> I don´t buy that anymore than the Kissing Spin therory or any of the other bright ideas popping up.
> How some vet can stand flat foot and say "that´s Lyme Disease" (a borellia strain that is very hard to diognos) without a blood test is beyond me!


I am more likely to trust Cinny's vet, who has stood in front of this horse, had a thorough back history, and seen all of his tests, than of someone on the internet who seems hell bent on telling his owner that there is nothing medically wrong with him, from one single thread that they have commented on.

Come back with a veterinary degree or some other qualification, then go take a trip out to see Cinny, and then I'm sure people will be more open to your opinion :wink:


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

Reading this has caused me to think about a friend's condition. She's been tested for everything under the sun but she's never mentioned being tested for Lyme. Right now she is in remission but when it flares up she's in agony.


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

IndiesaurusRex said:


> I am more likely to trust Cinny's vet, who has stood in front of this horse, had a thorough back history, and seen all of his tests, than of someone on the internet who seems hell bent on telling his owner that there is nothing medically wrong with him, from one single thread that they have commented on.
> 
> Come back with a veterinary degree or some other qualification, then go take a trip out to see Cinny, and then I'm sure people will be more open to your opinion :wink:


And all the other experts screaming Kissing Spin, PSSM and any extrem senario they can think of.
I said no it´s not kissing spine without a vet degree and the vet who should have one seems to agree.
Just don´t understand a vet jumping to conclusions before getting the test work back! 
That is not how the proffecional works that I know of.


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## Saddlebag (Jan 17, 2011)

I agree. A vet told me my boy had navicular, which meant he has xray vision. When I finally got the farrier to quit exfoliating the soles, end of problem. In nature horses don't exfoliate the sole to the extent a trimmer or farrier does. I don't like it when I can see the darkness of the P3 which means there's little to protect it.


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

Saddlebag said:


> I agree. A vet told me my boy had navicular, which meant he has xray vision. When I finally got the farrier to quit exfoliating the soles, end of problem. In nature horses don't exfoliate the sole to the extent a trimmer or farrier does.* I don't like it when I can see the darkness of the P3 which means there's little to protect it*.


Agee, some sole trimming may be needed but not so much as to sore the hoof under normal weight preasure.


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## Lopin N Paint (May 30, 2012)

amigoboy said:


> And all the other experts screaming Kissing Spin, PSSM and any extrem senario they can think of.
> I said no it´s not kissing spine without a vet degree and the vet who should have one seems to agree.
> Just don´t understand a vet jumping to conclusions before getting the test work back!
> That is not how the proffecional works that I know of.


I mentioned PSSM because it has a very simple, not super expensive, genetic test so its easy to rule out. Plus her horse is a Paint and its popping up in the breed with lightening speed.

It was only a suggestion of something to consider and perhaps mention to her vet, I was hardly saying her horse had it.

BUT, sorry for trying to help. I'll know better next time since I myself am not a vet I will just keep my mouth shut.

I myself would NEVER treat a horse for Lymes without testing it first. 1) the antibiotics (usually doxycycline for 60+days) is MORE expensive than the very simple blood test and 2) doxycycline can be rather rough on some horse's digestive system.


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

The problem is that the test for Lyme disease is not very sensitive, which means there are many false negatives. Most human doctors diagnose without blood testing because it is simply not accurate. I would imagine the vet's reasoning is pretty similar. Sure the PCR test isn't that expensive, but it being negative does not mean the horse doesn't have the disease.


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## greentree (Feb 27, 2013)

I agree with Cinny's vet. 2 weeks of treatment, if it is not cost prohibitive vs. a not-so-reliable test?? I would treat.

I have had 3 horses treated for EPM (not with Marquis, but an older, WAY cheaper protocol) and had AMAZING results. They MAY have come back negative on a test if we had run it, and those horses would still be pasture ornaments who could no longer do their jobs. 

Best of Luck, Cinny, we are PULLING for you!!

Nancy

ETA...Good luck getting the Doxycycline, if that is what the vet needs to use....In October, there was NONE to be found. 

N


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## Viranh (Apr 7, 2013)

I was able to get doxycycline for my dog just three weeks ago, so hopefully you can get it. There's more than one drug, too, but I think doxycycline is prefered.


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

This vet has gone through EXTENSIVE training. He is one of the best in the state. People drive (or pay extra for him to drive) 2 or 3 hours in order for him to give his opinions on their horse. He would be my vet ALL the time if he wasn't an hour away from my barn. He is older and has "been there, done that" and is highly respected. Around here if someone ask you who the BEST vet in the region is, everyone in the room will say this vets name. He is THAT good.

As for the Lyme test. His reasoning is that Lyme disease is really popping up a LOT in our region. My horse has ALL of the classic symptoms and he thinks he's had it for a while and can see the start of classic long term muscular damage, typical of a horse who has had it for over a year or more. He says the test, even the new ones can have both false positives as well as false negative depending on what part of the "cycle" the infection is in. If it is dormant, you can get a false negative.

As for PSSM, he doesn't really have the symptoms. I know it's a simple and cheap test, but to me that's like taking my son to the pediatrician and having him tested for Cystic Fibrosis because he has a cough but none of the other symptoms.

Amigoboy. You mean well but you have not worked with this horse and experienced the past 4 years with him, which is how long these symptoms have been going on and off. You have no knowledge of him before the symptoms started when he was a relaxed, wonderful ride with NO problems under saddle. A horse doesn't just forget all of it's training almost overnight. And working a horse harder, training it harder, and bullying it would only make matters worse when it's health problem. That's like spanking and punishing a child for being cranky when it has pneumonia or some other illness instead of TREATING THE ILLNESS. Not EVERYTHING is a training issue. Pain, illness, eye sensitivity to light, all change a horses behavior and how they behave or are able to work. 

This is a thread about a horse who is SICK. Not about a badly behaved horse. Please be sensitive to what the thread is about and contribute appropriately. Telling someone their horse that is sick, isn't sick despite what 3 educated, certified, licensed PROFESSIONALS have said, will not help. 

I am looking for others who have similar experiences and what helped, didn't help, etc etc. Ideas on what to talk to my vet about, (like PSSM) so that it can be ruled out. Horses aren't like cars, biccycles, etc. They are living, breathing creatures. You help them, you don't chuck them because something is wrong with them. As long as I am Cinny's guardian, I will help figure him out, or find a place where he will have a good quality of life. I will not just dump the problem on to someone else. Who knows, he could end up with someone who doesn't understand he is sick and will get mad at him, beat him, etc because they think it's a "training" issue. Which by the way, with Lyme disease, the more stress the horse is under, the more the organism multiplies and the illness because worse and causes more permanent damage, so chances are, calling it a training problem and working him through the anxiety and tantrums would just make matter much much worse in the long run.


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## amigoboy (Feb 14, 2014)

Lopin N Paint said:


> I mentioned PSSM because it has a very simple, not super expensive, genetic test so its easy to rule out. Plus her horse is a Paint and its popping up in the breed with lightening speed.
> 
> It was only a suggestion of something to consider and perhaps mention to her vet, I was hardly saying her horse had it.
> 
> ...


Yes I understand, had friends quarter mare contracted Borelia, kinda the same symptoms as the PSSM, man, she wasnt a horse for a long time, anti-bodies, rest, didn´t know if she was going too make it. She pulled through, but was never much of a riding horse after that, like the wind went out of her, she would just kinda plod along, hangy we say.
The horse I saw on the threads video did not look like that (eye of the beholder).
See what the test say, maybe it is lymes, I don´t know, if it´s not.....somebody is going too look pretty silly.

At least we can count out it´s Kissing Spin which was the original therory.:wink:


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## CandyCanes (Jul 1, 2013)

amigoboy said:


> At least we can count out it´s Kissing Spin which was the original therory.:wink:


No we can't. It could still be kissing spines. Cinny hasn't had x rays yet


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## Foxhunter (Feb 5, 2012)

amigoboy said:


> After reading Horse & Hound
> Understanding Lyme disease |Horse & Hound
> I don´t buy that anymore than the Kissing Spin therory or any of the other bright ideas popping up.
> How some vet can stand flat foot and say "that´s Lyme Disease" (a borellia strain that is very hard to diognos) without a blood test is beyond me!


I had a horse sick with a viral infection for *two years!* he was tested for all sorts and treatment came from all over the world.

He did not show any of the symptoms as Cinny has, the actual virus was never identified.
His white cell count was off the board and eventually this turned to Cauda Equina - for which he did test positive. He did recover but was never as he should have been.

Many vets have the experience and the intuition to be positive about a diagnosis especially when a test can return negative when it is, in fact, positive.


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## 4horses (Nov 26, 2012)

I would not assume it is just Lyme. There are many other causes of muscle pain, other than Lyme disease. Even well recommended vets make mistakes. There are many diseases that have similar symptoms or can cause the behavioral changes you have seen.

If the treatment for lyme fails, I would look further. 

Low magnesium can cause muscle pain, so can PSSM. Low vitamin E levels, selenium deficiency, etc.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> This vet has gone through EXTENSIVE training.


Well lets face it most vets have:wink:

I believe the frustration here comes from the long line of diagnoses that this horse has had, if he was a human we would maybe call him a Münchhausen sufferer! I was interested so I went and checked back and in the very first video you posted of him before you bought him, he is a choppy little inverted mover way back then...because we are all experts this side of the computer we all have our own thoughts on what his issue (s) are, some people are just more prepared to share their own opinion than others.


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## VLBUltraHot (Oct 26, 2013)

I've managed to get through most of this thread...boy is there a lot of information! I work for one of the surgeons who helped pioneer the Dorsal Spinous Processes reduction surgery or "Kissing Spines" surgery. I am a technician at his clinic and we perform about one (sometimes more) KS surgery a week. I feel that I am relatively knowledgeable on the subject, so that's all I'm going to talk about. The Lyme disease sounds like a valid diagnoses though...we'll leave the final diagnoses to the DVM 

Just in case you wanted ALL this extra information, I'll walk you through the process of what we do with a horse suspected to have Kissing Spines 

Your boy shows a lot of classic symptoms of KS horse, as well as your description of his behavior. We get a lot of "my horse is short and choppy, it seems to be worse when I'm riding bareback, he's a dream on the ground, won't freely move forward or round his back, crow hoping, won't bend or follow through when rounding a barrel, refusing jumps, won't use his back end when we rope a calf etc." Usually the owner complains of an "off and on" lameness that can't be exactly pinpointed. 

Typically we do a general lameness exam to watch how the horse moves. We also have a state of the art machine called the "Lameness Locator" that uses a series of algorithms and complicated math formulas that transmit from sensors that we put on the head, pelvis, and right front foot of the horse. We trot the horse and the computer collects the frequency of the stride and foot impact as well as the pelvis and head up and down motion. Usually a Kissing Spines horse will be shown as "off" on the computer, but will not show a severe enough lameness on a specific leg to warrant the pursuit of a limb lameness. If the owner brings their saddle we usually ask them to saddle up so we can watch the change in behavior when the horse is asked to move with added weight.

Then we proceed to take back radiographs if the horse has checked out as "within normal limits" limb lameness wise. MOST of the time we find that there are 2 or 3 spaces between the vertebrae that are considered abnormal. Sometimes there are as few as 1 close or touching vertebrae, and we've seen as many as 6 or 7 overlapping (ouch :/ ) vertebrae. **Quick disclaimer. Not ALL of the horses we radiograph have Kissing Spines. We've had a few that have completely textbook normal backs. We usually chalk their symptoms up to sore SI's/Whorlbones/Muscles, EPM, OR to poor behavior and suggest the owner try bute or banamine for a week to rule out pain versus brain. Obviously with your boy it’s not brain, so now you have to go through the difficult process of finding out where the pain is.

If the horse is diagnosed with KS, we usually give the owner three options. 1) Put the horse out to be a pasture ornament if you are that attached or financially capable and don't want to pursue trying to correct the problem. 2) Try back injections with a steroid and pain reliever to see if you can medically manage the problem and give the horse some relief. Sometimes the horse improves drastically and returns to it's normal work schedule. When the horse starts showing signs of discomfort, it's time for continued maintenance injections. 3) Surgery. As you can imagine it is not cheap. Not many surgeons are comfortable or experienced operating on a horse back, so your options for surgeons will be semi limited. We take radiographs throughout the surgery to make sure we’re cleaning up the right vertebrae. It’s really crazy what a difference in space between the processes there is post operatively. The surgery usually takes about and hour to an hour and a half minus recovery time. The horse is put on antibiotics and painkillers after surgery. Usually within 3 months after surgery the horse is ride able and with a little bit of rehab they are back to their normal work schedule. The results are fantastic with many horses showing a drastic change in attitude and performance post operatively. 

So there is my veeeeery long Kissing Spines rant. I hope you gleaned even a small amount of info from that novel lol. I also hope you can figure out what’s causing your sweet boy all this trouble. If only they could talk! Good luck and keep us updated!!


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## jaydee (May 10, 2012)

amigoboy said:


> After reading Horse & Hound
> Understanding Lyme disease |Horse & Hound
> I don´t buy that anymore than the Kissing Spin therory or any of the other bright ideas popping up.
> How some vet can stand flat foot and say "that´s Lyme Disease" (a borellia strain that is very hard to diognos) without a blood test is beyond me!


If you lived in a region where Lymes Disease is as prevalent as it is here in New England you wouldn't say that
Actually Cinny's symptoms are classic of Lymes and it's so common that many vets here don't bother to test the horses if they are displaying muscle pain, joint pain, lameness and irritability that comes and goes they just put them on a course of antibiotics
It is found that sometimes it takes a repeat course to clear it up especially if the horse has had the virus for a long time
Unfortunately when it goes untreated for so long it can cause permanent damage that can't be treated


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Golden Horse said:


> Well lets face it most vets have:wink:
> 
> I believe the frustration here comes from the long line of diagnoses that this horse has had, if he was a human we would maybe call him a Münchhausen sufferer! I was interested so I went and checked back and in the very first video you posted of him before you bought him, he is a choppy little inverted mover way back then...because we are all experts this side of the computer we all have our own thoughts on what his issue (s) are, some people are just more prepared to share their own opinion than others.


I never posted a video of him before I bought him.... Only videos shortly after.

And I'm thinking that whatever is wrong, he's had most of this time I've had him and perhaps slipped by the prepurchase as he was just a lazy horse in a pasture when I bought him. In fact 2 weeks after I bought him a weird rash cropped up on his hind leg while he was in a pasture. Then both hind legs ended up covered in fungus. And then a slight fever on and off, and then he was fine. Then every few months we'd have symptoms and it has gone on and on from here.

Golden horse, I know most vets have...but what I mean is he keeps up on the latest, is always learning knew techniques, new treatments, etc etc. He didn't just "kick back" after getting his piece of paper to put on the wall. Some vets just do the minimum that they have to do to keep their license but he goes above and beyond.


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## Golden Horse (Feb 20, 2010)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> I never posted a video of him before I bought him.... Only videos shortly after.


Sorry my mistake, I thought it was when you were considering him

Just out of interest though, do you remember if he was like this when you bought him

Cinny May 31, 2010 - YouTube

or was it after the fungus (eewie:shock


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## Cinnys Whinny (Apr 10, 2010)

Yeah, that was shortly after I brought him home. Like I said, I think he had the issue when I got him. Rest him and he's at least mellow, even if he is still choppy, work him and he starts having pain and is cranky as all get up. That's one of the main reason's Vet says Lyme disease and he's had it for a while. But it could be KS. We are treating for Lyme, if it doesn't clear up, then look for KS.


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## dkb811 (Oct 15, 2013)

Cinnys Whinny said:


> This vet has gone through EXTENSIVE training. He is one of the best in the state. People drive (or pay extra for him to drive) 2 or 3 hours in order for him to give his opinions on their horse. He would be my vet ALL the time if he wasn't an hour away from my barn. He is older and has "been there, done that" and is highly respected. Around here if someone ask you who the BEST vet in the region is, everyone in the room will say this vets name. He is THAT good.
> 
> As for the Lyme test. His reasoning is that Lyme disease is really popping up a LOT in our region. My horse has ALL of the classic symptoms and he thinks he's had it for a while and can see the start of classic long term muscular damage, typical of a horse who has had it for over a year or more. He says the test, even the new ones can have both false positives as well as false negative depending on what part of the "cycle" the infection is in. If it is dormant, you can get a false negative.
> 
> ...


You are to be commended for being such an honorable and caring horse owner! Many do throw away these living, breathing creatures at the first sign of trouble. Granted, some people are unable to see their animal through the long haul , but some just throw them away like a piece of trash. I'm sure this has been a very frustrating, expensive road for you, but your kind, unselfish heart shines through. I want to wish you the very best of luck and the very best outcome for your horse, whatever that may be!


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